# India and NSG-News, Updates and Discussions.



## IndoCarib

*Four years after the 46-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) opened the doors for global nuclear trade for New Delhi, India is steadily inching closer to its pursuit of joining the world's top four atomic control regimes with a large number of countries in favour of getting it within the non-proliferation tent.

Marking a spectacular turnaround in global attitudes, India, which was once seen as a pariah after it went nuclear in 1998, garnered the NSG approval for the India-US civil nuclear deal and global nuclear cooperation on Sept 6, 2008.

Over the last four years, India has been lobbying with key NSG players for membership of the four key multilateral nuclear export regimes - the NSG, the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the Australia Group and the Wassenaar Arrangement.*

The result has been largely satisfying, well-placed sources close to the strategic-nuclear establishment told IANS.

"We have made steady progress. The preparatory phase is well under way," the sources said.

India feels that joining the NSG is key to the entire game as it will set the stage for it to join the other three regimes, which have different compositions and membership criteria.

"There is a general consensus that India will join the four regimes in a coordinated manner. The key to the entire game is the NSG. In our assessment, NSG is the most important," the sources said.

On this front, there is some good news to cheer. Leading NSG members, including the US, Russia, France and Britain, have already expressed support for India joining the top multilateral regimes. "A large number of countries are in favour of India joining these regimes," the sources disclosed to IANS.

*Indian officials have been careful not to set any time-frame for New Delhi's entry into the four regimes but stress that the discussions are evolving in a positive manner. They cite the growing consensus in the NSG on getting India inside the tent rather than keeping it out.*

India, said the sources, is being increasingly seen as a like-minded country that serves the interests and goals of the non-proliferation regimes. "India's non-proliferation record is exemplary. It's as much in India's interests as it is in the interests of the world," the sources said.

The US, the prime mover behind India's global nuclear rapprochement, is also leading the charge this time round.

In a breakthrough of sorts, the US has agreed to disassociate India's membership of the NSG from its accession to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). India has made it clear it will never join the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state as it regards the NPT as a discriminatory regime that divides the world into the nuclear haves and have-nots. In this context, the US circulated a "non-paper" on India's membership at the NSG plenary meeting held in Seattle on June 22.

*The most controversial part of the paper is that NPT membership is not being seen as a "condition" for being in the NSG, carrying forward its recommendation for India's membership that the US had circulated at the last plenary at Noordwijk in the Netherlands last year.*

What has brightened India's chances is that the US is helming the NSG this year.
However, as the NSG works by consensus, China may prove to be a hurdle. China had deftly hedged on the India-US civil nuclear deal and even encouraged fence-sitters in the NSG not to support the deal in days prior to the Sept 6, 2008, approval. But India is hoping that if the rest of the NSG, or at least a majority of the NSG, supports India's bid to join these regimes, Beijing will not like to be seen as a spoiler.

To buttress its credentials, India is ready to negotiate a multilateral non-discriminatory, universally verifiable Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty (FMCT), but Pakistan's opposition to the FMCT has stalled this crucial pact that seeks to curb the production of weapons-grade fissile material. India is also haromnising its national laws and nuclear safety standards with the international obligations that will flow from joining the top four regimes.

India moving closer to joining NSG, US leads the charge


*MOD: Please use this thread for all the Updates and any news related to this topic...*

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## KRAIT

Any cons in this....?

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## MandarK

Why MTCR???


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## veekysingh

MTCR too? r u really sure?


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## IndoCarib

KRAIT said:


> Any cons in this....?



Not really. We are exempted from joining NPT

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## Ticker

If India continues to go along the US and West's geopolitical game plan, it will be able to join the NSG. It will have to give in to some of the aspects to make it gain-some. 

It will bring India a step closer to becoming a member of such other international fora as well. 

However, to gain the exclusivity of what UK, Japan, Israel and some other US allies get, India will have to give in big. The key US and Western analysts have clearly stated this. 

It will be interesting to see how India approaches that goal.


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> If India continues to go along the US and West's geopolitical game plan, it will be able to join the NSG. It will have to give in to some of the aspects to make it gain-some.
> 
> It will bring India a step closer to becoming a member of such other international fora as well.
> 
> However, to gain the exclusivity of what UK, Japan, Israel and some other US allies get, India will have to give in big. *The key US and Western analysts have clearly stated this.*
> 
> It will be interesting to see how India approaches that goal.



Unlike Pakistan, India is neither a small country nor have tensions with West, Israel. So, if little diplomacy help us to gain exclusive rights, there is nothing wrong in that.  

Infact you will see only country among P-5 which hasn't supported India permanent UNSC membership is China. Our border dispute with China and their hegemony matters us more than what going on in the middle East. 

Can you tell us what your analyst say about give-take to the West.

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Unlike Pakistan, India is neither a small country nor have tensions with West, Israel. So, if little diplomacy help us to gain exclusive rights, there is nothing wrong in that.
> 
> Infact you will see only country among P-5 which hasn't supported India permanent UNSC membership is China. Our border dispute with China and their hegemony matters us more than what going on in the middle East.
> 
> Can you tell us what your analyst say about give-take to the West.



You don't need to read our analysts as they may be biased or so you may think. Read what some of the key US writers say about India. It is indeed interesting.


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> You don't need to read our analysts as they may be biased or so you may think. Read what some of the key US writers say about India. It is indeed interesting.



Can you tell that in short.

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## ajtr

I'll have india test the megaton fusion bomb before joining these clubs/regimes.Smiling Buddha-3 is required urgently.

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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Can you tell that in short.



As short as I could .......

Unless India acquiesces to what the US is desirous, the strategic alliance is not moving beyond the strategic discussion.



ajtr said:


> I'll have india test the megaton fusion bomb before joining these clubs/regimes.Smiling Buddha-3 is required urgently.



Oh please don't involve Buddha who is revered for peace, in a mega ton nuclear explosion. 

And, where will you conduct a megaton nuclear test. 

I am outa here - and fast.


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## KRAIT

Gigawatt said:


> Unlike Pakistan, India is neither a small country nor have tensions with West, Israel. So, if little diplomacy help us to gain exclusive rights, there is nothing wrong in that.
> 
> Infact you will see only country among P-5 which hasn't supported India permanent UNSC membership is China. Our border dispute with China and their hegemony matters us more than what going on in the middle East.
> 
> Can you tell us what your analyst say about give-take to the West.


China mainly opposes us as we are approaching with Japan on the boat. Else China would have given the support.



IndoCarib said:


> Not really. We are exempted from joining NPT


Yeah...that part I liked the most. Bending previous stance to accommodate India.

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## IndoUS

India has pretty good track record, if you include MTCR we have pretty strict law regarding missile and Nuclear technology. So won't be a surprise if get join them.

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## ajtr

Ticker said:


> As short as I could .......
> 
> Unless India acquiesces to what the US is desirous, the *strategic alliance* is not moving beyond the *strategic discussion.*


Who want strategic alliance with usa after all seeing all the examples of strategic allies of usa in Asia..strategic discussion suits india well.





> Oh please don't involve *Buddha who is revered for peace*, in a mega ton nuclear explosion.
> 
> And, where will you conduct a megaton nuclear test.
> 
> I am outa here - and fast.


Nuckes are weapons of peace and missiles are vehicle to showering flower petals hence the smiling buddha.

On mars/moon.


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## India defense

Go India Go.....


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## Ticker

ajtr said:


> Who want strategic alliance with usa after all seeing all the examples of strategic allies of usa in Asia..strategic discussion suits india well.



Tell this to GOI. They apparently think differently. 



> Nuckes are weapons of peace and missiles are vehicle to showering flower petals hence the smiling buddha.
> 
> On mars/moon.



ha ha ha ...... 

I accept defeat in this case. Name it what you want. Please please please

I don't have answers to many of the things you highlight.



India defense said:


> Go India Go.....



Kidhar ko bhai


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## Abingdonboy

> NEW DELHI: Learning from the experience of the 2008 Mumbai 26/11 attacks, the National Security Guards (NSG) is set to bring on board "tactical negotiators" who can be used by the agency to interact with terrorists in a hostage situation in the event of a terror attack in future.
> 
> 
> The Home Ministry has approved NSG's proposal to allow it to hire such professionals who can be psychological experts and help the security agencies in negotiating with terrorists when civilians are taken hostage, like what happened during the Mumbai 26/11 attacks.
> 
> At present, usually a senior police official or a top Intelligence official is roped in for such negotiations who may not be the best person for the job given the lack of expertise. A source in the NSG said the force is studying the concept of professional negotiators in elite commando forces in the US and UK where talented professionals in the field of psychology and professors of universities act as resource persons or a permanent group used by them for negotiations in a hostage situation.
> 
> The tactical negotiators desired by the NSG should have good communication and persuasive skills and must be capable of understanding realtime behavioural patterns, language and dialect of the terrorists in the event of a communication channel opening up during a hostage situation.
> 
> During the 26/11 attacks, Pakistani terrorists holed up in Nariman House had called up the Israeli embassy in Washington to negotiate for the release of several Israeli hostages inside the building. In fact, one of the terrorists told the Israeli officials to ask India to release the captured terrorist Ajmal Kasab in exchange for the hostages.
> 
> The Israeli officials, who had to depend on an interpreter to talk to the terrorists, tried to negotiate the release but failed as the terrorists killed all the hostages. The 26/11 terrorists holed up at Oberoi Hotel had also called up a private TV channel saying they were Indians hailing from Hyderabad and demanded the release of all terrorists in Indian jails.
> 
> During the IC 814 hostage situation in Kandahar in 1999, the then Intelligence Bureau chief Ajit Doval along with Nehchal Sandhu, who went on to become the IB chief, were the chief negotiators. The hostage episode on foreign soil in Afghanistan ended after India agreed to free three dreaded terrorists in exchange for 175 passengers on board.




NSG to recruit â??Negotiatorsâ?? for hostage situations - Economic Times

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Excellent move


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## hkdas

very good move....


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## kurup

Very good news !!!


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## mehboobkz

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/551847/to-enter-nsg-india-offers.html







*India has offered China a slice of its atomic industry pie as it persuades the communist country to stop opposing its bid to enter the Nuclear Suppliers Group.*

New Delhi has indicated its willingness to start discussions with Beijing on the possibility of an inter-governmental agreement, which will provide a framework for India-China cooperation in nuclear energy sector, sources told DH in New Delhi.

China remained firm in its opposition to India’s entry to the suppliers group, when the representatives of the members of the cartel met in Vienna on Thursday.

The US and most of the other NSG members are in favour of admitting India. But since the NSG takes decisions by consensus, India may still find it difficult to get the membership if China continues to oppose its plea.

New Delhi has been trying to persuade Beijing to drop its opposition and is likely to continue its efforts over the next few days, before the NSG holds its annual plenary in Seoul on June 23 and 24.

New Delhi conveyed to Beijing that China too could be a partner in India’s ambitious nuclear power programme, sources said.

India’s “Intended Nationally Determined Contribution” to global effort to mitigate climate change would require it to generate 40% power without using fossil fuel by 2030. The government has a target to raise installed capacity for nuclear power generation from 5,780 MWe to 63 GWe by 2032.

Russia is already building reactors in India. The US and French companies are negotiating commercial agreements with the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited for setting up atomic power plants in India. Canada has started supply of uranium to India. Australia will follow suit soon.

New Delhi conveyed to Beijing that it was also open to discuss possibility of India-China cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear power.

An official in New Delhi said that India and China – both committed to promote clean energy – were already in broad agreement on the need to expand their respective nuclear power programmes.

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## Majet Raha

At least India is showing what it can do and give back, OTOH what is pakistan doing? their members are bragging on PDF and that is all.

Guys, you are only pleasing chinese right now, earlier you were doing this for Americans, Since they gave you stick, you turned to chinese and waiting for their stick (no pun intended) 

On some other thread, a chinese poster is asking what India can give back @Chinese-Dragon


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## Chinese-Dragon

mehboobkz said:


> *India has offered China a slice of its atomic industry pie as it persuades the communist country to stop opposing its bid to enter the Nuclear Suppliers Group.*





Majet Raha said:


> On some other thread, a chinese poster is asking what India can give back @Chinese-Dragon



Well, India is finally getting the right idea. 

That's offering something real, not "good will" or other political fluff and flowery words which have no tangible value.

Intangible things like "good will" and flowery words have no value on the open market. If you want to do some quid-pro-quo we need more offers like these.

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## PARIKRAMA

A good move.. Give them access to our N market, reduce some import duties, ease of getting visa and .movement and also award that a railway corridor to develop like Delhi to Chennai type.

Show them that they can easily become economic partners and use their expertise to build the new India. That way the hostilities will come down much quicker.

Also as a gesture do support their inclusion in MTCR.

Finally a good move to showcase real meaningful understanding of what can be offered..

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## fsayed

mehboobkz said:


> http://www.deccanherald.com/content/551847/to-enter-nsg-india-offers.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *India has offered China a slice of its atomic industry pie as it persuades the communist country to stop opposing its bid to enter the Nuclear Suppliers Group.*
> 
> New Delhi has indicated its willingness to start discussions with Beijing on the possibility of an inter-governmental agreement, which will provide a framework for India-China cooperation in nuclear energy sector, sources told DH in New Delhi.
> 
> China remained firm in its opposition to India’s entry to the suppliers group, when the representatives of the members of the cartel met in Vienna on Thursday.
> 
> The US and most of the other NSG members are in favour of admitting India. But since the NSG takes decisions by consensus, India may still find it difficult to get the membership if China continues to oppose its plea.
> 
> New Delhi has been trying to persuade Beijing to drop its opposition and is likely to continue its efforts over the next few days, before the NSG holds its annual plenary in Seoul on June 23 and 24.
> 
> New Delhi conveyed to Beijing that China too could be a partner in India’s ambitious nuclear power programme, sources said.
> 
> India’s “Intended Nationally Determined Contribution” to global effort to mitigate climate change would require it to generate 40% power without using fossil fuel by 2030. The government has a target to raise installed capacity for nuclear power generation from 5,780 MWe to 63 GWe by 2032.
> 
> Russia is already building reactors in India. The US and French companies are negotiating commercial agreements with the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited for setting up atomic power plants in India. Canada has started supply of uranium to India. Australia will follow suit soon.
> 
> New Delhi conveyed to Beijing that it was also open to discuss possibility of India-China cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear power.
> 
> An official in New Delhi said that India and China – both committed to promote clean energy – were already in broad agreement on the need to expand their respective nuclear power programmes.


Good move offer them 2or 3 reactor business


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## Majet Raha

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well, India is finally getting the right idea.
> 
> That's offering something real, not "good will" or other political fluff and flowery words which have no tangible value.
> 
> Intangible things like "good will" and flowery words have no value on the open market. If you want to do some quid-pro-quo we need more offers like these.



Well come on man, bring everything that you have. That will stop the idiot posts and green toothless man


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## volatile

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well, India is finally getting the right idea.
> 
> That's offering something real, not "good will" or other political fluff and flowery words which have no tangible value.
> 
> Intangible things like "good will" and flowery words have no value on the open market. If you want to do some quid-pro-quo we need more offers like these.


Will China take the bait ?


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## fsayed

volatile said:


> Will China take the bait ?


100% China required business and market to sustain its slowing economy


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## Majet Raha

volatile said:


> Will China take the bait ?



Anyways you guys doing nothing, so wait and watch for you. JUST WAIT AND WATCH.


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## Chinese-Dragon

PARIKRAMA said:


> A good move.. Give them access to our N market, reduce some import duties, ease of getting visa and .movement and also award that a railway corridor to develop like Delhi to Chennai type.
> 
> Show them that they can easily become economic partners and use their expertise to build the new India. That way the hostilities will come down much quicker.
> 
> Also as a gesture do support their inclusion in MTCR.
> 
> Finally a good move to showcase real meaningful understanding of what can be offered..



Every country operates based on national interests. If both sides benefit enough then cooperation can happen.

No thanks for the MTCR though, there is no reason for us to restrict our own missile exports.

See what happened to Bhramos, the range was cut down to 290 km to satisfy this MTCR restriction. The 300 km restriction is too severe, in modern warfare you need more range.

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## mehboobkz

fsayed said:


> Good move offer them 2or 3 reactor business



On trade, India is already suffering vis-a-vis China which maintains hefty trade surplus against India. 
India has initiated 177 anti dumping cases against China.


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## volatile

fsayed said:


> 100% China required business and market to sustain its slowing economy


Even at the expense of Strategic importance ?


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## temporary12345

PARIKRAMA said:


> A good move.. Give them access to our N market, reduce some import duties, ease of getting visa and .movement and also award that a railway corridor to develop like Delhi to Chennai type.
> 
> Show them that they can easily become economic partners and use their expertise to build the new India. That way the hostilities will come down much quicker.
> 
> Also as a gesture do support their inclusion in MTCR.
> 
> Finally a good move to showcase real meaningful understanding of what can be offered..




And make a list of safety, sanitary and phytosanitary violations done by Chinese companies, for putting ban on them stating such violations,if China cast a lone NO vote.


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## Mitro

Hand over Dalai Lama and Arunachal Pradesh [emoji338]


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## mehboobkz

NSG: China says more talks needed for consensus


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## Chinese-Dragon

Mirza Jatt said:


> Oh .... so you want something in return ??



Yes. Since when has anything in the world been free?

See this thread for an example.

How much did you pay for US support? Ever wondered why the USA just replaced Russia as India's biggest defence partner? Or why India signed those agreements that will let US forces operate on Indian soil (CISMOA/LSA)?

Compared to that, this is nothing.

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## Mirza Jatt

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yes. Since when has anything in the world been free?
> 
> See this thread for an example.
> 
> How much did you pay for US support? Ever wondered why the USA replaced Russia as India's biggest defence partner? Or why India signed those agreements that will let US forces operate on Indian soil (CISMOA)?
> 
> Compared to that, this is nothing.



When did India say it wants anything free.... we have something called 'Saam, Daam, Dand, Bhed' concept in our texts (google it). We will do whatever possible to get our deal done...but always staart with the cheaper path

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## Majet Raha

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yes. Since when has anything in the world been free?
> 
> See this thread for an example.
> 
> How much did you pay for US support? Ever wondered why the USA just replaced Russia as India's biggest defence partner? Or why India signed those agreements that will let US forces operate on Indian soil (CISMOA)?
> 
> Compared to that, this is nothing.



Good guy, you lost your toothless green man here is your candy. And suddenly you making sense.

See, India is always open for business. When Russia supported us, it was Russia and when America supporting us its America. We are the fastest growing economy, and world is taking note of that. We are the last brick standing, if you know what i mean.

So if you fall inline, you will get to eat pie as well.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Mirza Jatt said:


> When did India say it wants anything free.... we have something called 'Saam, Daam, Dand, Bhed' concept in our texts (google it). We will do whatever possible to get our deal done...but always staart with the cheaper path



Well, nuclear reactor deals like we have with Britain would be a start. But no doubt that would face considerable political opposition within India.

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## Mirza Jatt

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well, nuclear reactor deals like we have with Britain would be a start. But no doubt that would face considerable political opposition within India.



Yes. It may. But I think while this Indian Govt. is at the power, this is a great time India-China can pull this off.

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## maxpayne

China dont need India on this. She is already working on various nuclear projects inside pakistan!


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## temporary12345

maxpayne said:


> China dont need India on this. She is already working on various nuclear projects inside pakistan!




Worth how much??


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## maxpayne

temporary12345 said:


> Worth how much??


Billions. Chashnups, Kannups and more to come!


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## proud_indian

volatile said:


> Will China take the bait ?





volatile said:


> Even at the expense of Strategic importance ?





maxpayne said:


> China dont need India on this. She is already working on various nuclear projects inside pakistan!





maxpayne said:


> Billions. Chashnups, Kannups and more to come!








watch from 36:30 onwards to get all your answers

do not underestimate the power of economics

@fsayed @Mirza Jatt @PARIKRAMA @temporary12345 @Majet Raha @GURU DUTT

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## maxpayne

proud_indian said:


> watch from 36:30 onwards to get all your answers
> 
> do not underestimate the power of economics


Cant see the video. Post link please


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## proud_indian

maxpayne said:


> Cant see the video. Post link please


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## illuminatidinesh

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well, India is finally getting the right idea.
> 
> That's offering something real, not "good will" or other political fluff and flowery words which have no tangible value.
> 
> Intangible things like "good will" and flowery words have no value on the open market. If you want to do some quid-pro-quo we need more offers like these.


Well these words may be harsh but definetely true.... 
Just good buisness ...



maxpayne said:


> China dont need India on this. She is already working on various nuclear projects inside pakistan!


Oh come on rather than thinking what China wants think what Pakistan wants from this, maybe that is a good start for your NSG deal at least.


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## Stealth

India is not capable to handle Pakistan leave China alone the reason India need US support to counter first Pakistan on the other side (admission) India is basically the Enemy state of mine.. but I MUST appreciated the way they're doing DIPLOMACY in which Pakistan is BIG ZERO!


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## Rajaraja Chola

maxpayne said:


> China dont need India on this. She is already working on various nuclear projects inside pakistan!



And funded by China, with soft loans. If I am a businessman I would like to make some quick bucks, and not recover my money when the life of the reactor is going to die.



Stealth said:


> India is not capable to handle Pakistan leave China alone the reason India need US support to counter first Pakistan on the other side (admission) India is basically the Enemy state of mine.. but I MUST appreciated the way they're doing DIPLOMACY in which Pakistan is BIG ZERO!



India has already started to look beyond Pakistan. Its working towards catching up with China, both economically and militarily, like China is working towards catching up with USA, and US is catching up with unknown aliens  

US do not need India to counter Pakistan.  US President just needs to give an order to seventh fleet. 
The day Pakistan stops asking world powers to treat itself on par with India on every issue, it will show some development. The fruits we enjoy and going to enjoy is the preserverance of Indian state for the last 70 years.

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## Stealth

Rajaraja Chola said:


> And funded by China, with soft loans. If I am a businessman I would like to make some quick bucks, and not recover my money when the life of the reactor is going to die.
> 
> 
> 
> India has already started to look beyond Pakistan. Its working towards catching up with China, both economically and militarily, like China is working towards catching up with USA, and US is catching up with unknown aliens
> 
> US do not need India to counter Pakistan.  US President just needs to give an order to seventh fleet.
> The day Pakistan stops asking world powers to treat itself on par with India on every issue, it will show some development. The fruits we enjoy and going to enjoy is the preserverance of Indian state for the last 70 years.



"Read carefully" US do not need India to counter Pakistan - India need US to counter Pakistan which US has already provided super support to India since last many many years but still India failed in terms of many things. India's neighbor (China and Pakistan) both were not accept Indian hegemony in the region. On the other side India is become a TOOL to counter China and this is hard reality which entire world knows. U.S. is building up India against China. So obvious US Support India in everything to achieve its future objectives (counter and contain China through India, Japan, Vietnam, Australia) Asia Pacific.

Bet me you'll not become NSG member nor even this time nor in future until Pakistan too. China will veto everywhere because this time, US support to India is basically countering China not Pakistan. China will block every single perspective.

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## maxpayne

Rajaraja Chola said:


> And funded by China, with soft loans. If I am a businessman I would like to make some quick bucks, and not recover my money when the life of the reactor is going to die.


Yes it is Chinese investment. A win win for both. How much India can offer to China on this issue? Not more than what Pakistan has already given!



illuminatidinesh said:


> Oh come on rather than thinking what China wants think what Pakistan wants from this, maybe that is a good start for your NSG deal at least.


Relations are two way affairs. And we both are getting benefits from each other. And their is no place for India in nuclear issue and ti cant offer China much here. So Sorry!


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## cerberus

Stealth said:


> "Read carefully" US do not need India to counter Pakistan - India need US to counter Pakistan which US already provide super support to India since last many many years but still India is failed in many reasons. India's top top neighbors (China and Pakistan) both not accept Indian hegemony in the region. On the other side India is become a TOOL to counter China and this is hard reality which entire world knows. U.S. is building up India against China. So obvious US Support India in everything to achieve its future objectives (counter and contain China through India, Japan, Vietnam, Australia) Asia Pacific.
> 
> Bet me you'll not become NSG member nor even this time nor in future until Pakistan too. China will veto everywhere because this time, US support to India is basically countering China not Pakistan. China will block every single perspective.



Only in dreams 

Hard economic constraints and goals will make China to change its stance 

We are have seen similar poster during NSG waiver which we got so this state is meaning less 


Pakistan is only burden when it comes to economic posturing 
India on the other hand involved in multiple channels and committed to various global groups 

Like example BRICS and BRICS bank 
Of which India founding member 

India committed 100 billion $ for its set-up do Pakistan ever think of such commitments 

Only in dream Pakistan will think of entering on China alone there is 47 other members and unlike they will never let Pakistan near NSG groups 

Remember india has only one hurdle btw NSG that's alone china 

But Pakistan well you can only imagine


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## proud_indian

maxpayne said:


> Yes it is Chinese investment. A win win for both. How much India can offer to China on this issue? Not more than what Pakistan has already given!
> 
> 
> Relations are two way affairs. And we both are getting benefits from each other. And their is no place for India in nuclear issue and ti cant offer China much here. So Sorry!




you have no idea

*Nuclear power* is the fourth-largest source of electricity in India after thermal, hydroelectric and renewable sources of electricity. As of 2013, India has 21 nuclear reactors in operation in 7 nuclear power plants, having an installed capacity of 5780 MW and producing a total of 30,292.91 GWh of electricity while 6 more reactors are under construction and are expected to generate an additional 4,300 MW.

In October 2010, India drew up *"an ambitious plan to reach a nuclear power capacity of 63,000 MW in 2032"

and that estimate itself is very conservative by today's estimate*


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## sree45

The problem china faces is, It cannot be the only country vetoing India's entry. It would put a greater wedge between the two countries and any goodwill that is left between them will be lost.


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## Hulk

volatile said:


> Even at the expense of Strategic importance ?


Strategic importance is not going anywhere, Pakistan really does not have any option but to work with China anyways.


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## illuminatidinesh

maxpayne said:


> Relations are two way affairs. And we both are getting benefits from each other. And their is no place for India in nuclear issue and ti cant offer China much here. So Sorry!


Delusion at best. India doesnt want anything with China - Pak relation. Y u guys equate with Indian relations? we just need China to step aside so that we are admitted , for that we are ready to give China something. Now where is Pakistan in this equation or you must be thinking because china does buisness with Pakistan it shouldnt do with India?



Hulk said:


> Strategic importance is not going anywhere, Pakistan really does not have any option but to work with China anyways.


That my friend is the difference he doesnt understand or doesnt want to.....

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## maxpayne

illuminatidinesh said:


> Delusion at best. India doesnt want anything with China - Pak relation. Y u guys equate with Indian relations? we just need China to step aside so that we are admitted , for that we are ready to give China something. Now where is Pakistan in this equation or you must be thinking because china does buisness with Pakistan it shouldnt do with India?


Yes u dont want anythng from China. Read the title first before writing msg. Ignorance at its best!!



proud_indian said:


> you have no idea
> 
> *Nuclear power* is the fourth-largest source of electricity in India after thermal, hydroelectric and renewable sources of electricity. As of 2013, India has 21 nuclear reactors in operation in 7 nuclear power plants, having an installed capacity of 5780 MW and producing a total of 30,292.91 GWh of electricity while 6 more reactors are under construction and are expected to generate an additional 4,300 MW.
> 
> In October 2010, India drew up *"an ambitious plan to reach a nuclear power capacity of 63,000 MW in 2032"
> 
> and that estimate itself is very conservative by today's estimate*


Tell me what u can offer to China? Nothing? a plant or 2 lol? We have more than 3 1200MW gen plants in progress. Keep ur ambitions with u!

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## proud_indian

maxpayne said:


> Tell me what u can offer to China? Nothing? a plant or 2 lol? We have more than 3 1200MW gen plants in progress. Keep ur ambitions with u!



what can we offer to china?

*China-India to Become World's Largest Trading Partners by 2030*

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## Echo_419

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yes. Since when has anything in the world been free?
> 
> See this thread for an example.
> 
> How much did you pay for US support? Ever wondered why the USA just replaced Russia as India's biggest defence partner? Or why India signed those agreements that will let US forces operate on Indian soil (CISMOA/LSA)?
> 
> Compared to that, this is nothing.



Actually the US hasn't won a single reactor deal in India. I hope China takes advantage of this & invest in Nuclear power in India.


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## Sheikh Rauf

Its a beautiful way to single out Pakistan if india enter in that group then then can easily create problem and china knows its ultimatily them on the list and india is source.
China knows whats up... 
Pak China dosti zindabad.


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## raj76

http://www.dawn.com/news/1264366/mo...nsensus-on-nuclear-suppliers-group-says-china

ALREADY TONE HAS CHANGED FROM LAST WEEK

China said on Sunday that more talks were needed to build a consensus on which countries can join the main group controlling access to sensitive nuclear technology, after a push by the United States to include India.

China is seen as leading opposition to the US move to include India in the 48-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), but other countries, including New Zealand, Turkey, South Africa and Austria also oppose Indian membership, according to diplomats.

_Related: Indian inclusion could affect strategic stability, Pakistan tells Nuclear Suppliers Group_

The NSG aims to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons by restricting the sale of items that can be used to make those arms.

India already enjoys most of the benefits of membership under a 2008 exemption to NSG rules granted to support its nuclear cooperation deal with Washington, even though India has developed atomic weapons and never signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the main global arms control pact.

"Large differences" remain over the issue of non-NPT countries joining the NSG, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said in an online statement.

"With regard to what to do on the issue of non-NPT signatories joining (the NSG), China consistently supports having ample discussion on this to seek consensus and agreement and come to a unanimous decision," Hong said.

"The NPT is the political and legal basis for the entire international non-proliferation system," Hong said, adding that China would support the group in further talks to come to a consensus at an early date.

Opponents argue that granting India membership would further undermine efforts to prevent proliferation. It would also infuriate India's rival Pakistan, which responded to India's membership bid with one of its own and has the backing of its close ally China.

_Also Read: What you need to know about the Nuclear Suppliers Group_

A decision on Indian membership is not expected before an NSG plenary meeting in Seoul on June 20, but diplomats have said Washington has been pressuring hold-outs.

Most of the hold-outs oppose the idea of admitting a non-NPT state such as India and argue that if it is to be admitted, it should be under criteria that apply equally to all states rather than under a "tailor-made" solution for a US ally.


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## Centurion2016

China is teetering on a u turn

The rest of the world are with india .......on NSG membership

China can try and veto by themselves,

They now are saying more talks needed to get concensus ##

interesting


----------



## itachii

Stealth said:


> *India is not capable to handle Pakistan leave China alone* the reason India need US support to counter first Pakistan on the other side (admission) India is basically the Enemy state of mine.. but I MUST appreciated the way they're doing DIPLOMACY in which Pakistan is BIG ZERO!



lol, stop taking yourself so seriously, the world doesn't.. 

on topic:

I am a ltl unease with the thought of setting up chinese reactors in India. It's a bit too much for a vote to get in to NSG group


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## Rajaraja Chola

Stealth said:


> "Read carefully" US do not need India to counter Pakistan - India need US to counter Pakistan which US has already provided super support to India since last many many years but still India failed in terms of many things. India's neighbor (China and Pakistan) both were not accept Indian hegemony in the region. On the other side India is become a TOOL to counter China and this is hard reality which entire world knows. U.S. is building up India against China. So obvious US Support India in everything to achieve its future objectives (counter and contain China through India, Japan, Vietnam, Australia) Asia Pacific.
> 
> Bet me you'll not become NSG member nor even this time nor in future until Pakistan too. China will veto everywhere because this time, US support to India is basically countering China not Pakistan. China will block every single perspective.



Lets turn the clock by 10 years when Indo US relationship were nascent. India did not need US to counter Pakistan. Its really an delusional statement. However US does need India to counter China, both militarily and economically. China US war will never gonna happen for a single fact ie 600 billion dollar trade. 
India and China has well the capability to eclipse that amount in future. When in future India China trade crosses 500 billion, what scheme of things Pakistan will be for China is a thing I do not understand. 

I have told this before. I reiterate it again. Pakistan and China are well within their rights to canvass other members to support Pakistan. Some countries, no matter, what you convince, will be hard nut to crack to support Pakistan. 
When 47 members have agreed to support India, China will never veto. Historically China will not veto when it has got isolated. And when India gives them business, N power plants, an Delhi Chennai HSR line, the ROI will always be higher. 
It cannot give an explanation such as both of the countries have to be admitted. Both the countries have to be "voted" separately. Even if US agrees to support Pakistan, it wont go to overdrive to ask its allies to support Pakistan candidature. That's the work of China and Pakistan. 
We can convince Ireland, South Africa and US can handle Austria and New Zealand. Turkey needs little more budging. China needs to be handled by both US and India. So not this year. Maybe Not 2017. But come 2018. We will be in.



maxpayne said:


> Yes it is Chinese investment. A win win for both. How much India can offer to China on this issue? Not more than what Pakistan has already given!



Doesnt matter. Its still a soft loan. We do not even know the amount of loan, percentage. For obvious reason, PA while choosing for weapon platform or Pakistan government for N reactors doesnt make this information public. 
I repeat again. If I am selling an TV, I prefer an one time single payment, and not something that I will get in 20 years time.

If you may not know, China cannot build more power plants other than the initial MoU linked with Pakistan. I think the number is 8. After that any MoU for N reactors needs NSG approval. 
If I remember correctly China budged after 2008 waiver on India, after other powers decided to allow China to build more reactors as per original MoU.


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## illuminatidinesh

Rajaraja Chola said:


> Doesnt matter. Its still a soft loan. We do not even know the amount of loan, percentage. For obvious reason, PA while choosing for weapon platform or Pakistan government for N reactors doesnt make this information public.
> I repeat again. If I am selling an TV, I prefer an one time single payment, and not something that I will get in 20 years time.
> 
> If you may not know, China cannot build more power plants other than the initial MoU linked with Pakistan. I think the number is 8. After that any MoU for N reactors needs NSG approval.
> If I remember correctly China budged after 2008 waiver on India, after other powers decided to allow China to build more reactors as per original MoU.


That s what these people need to understand, instead of blocking India into NSG( though Pakistan has no clout after US openly supported India) they should think in terms of how many more reactor they can get from this situation, make a deal. Dont try to punch way above ur weight .



maxpayne said:


> Yes u dont want anythng from China. Read the title first before writing msg. Ignorance at its best!!


Do you een understand what I said ? better read before quoting again.


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## mehboobkz

PM dials Putin as China looks to delay NSG bid


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## neem456

When we have options of plants from france, US , canada, russia, japan. why should we include china to this list and compromise on quality and security ?

Chinese option is only for those who have no other option and have a scarse budget.


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## ayesha.a

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Or why India signed those agreements that will let US forces operate on Indian soil (CISMOA/LSA)?
> 
> Compared to that, this is nothing.



You have no idea about Indians, if you think we would ever sign such an agreement, or even consider it. The CISMOA/LSA do not, in any way, allow the US military to operate on Indian soil. Hell, India wouldn't even allow Americans to periodically inspect weapons that we purchase from them. You are misinformed about the treaties.

Here is an explanation from another member @jhungary:



> .......You guys are seriously misinformed by this LSA to be signed..
> 
> This is a Logistic Support Agreement, not a Combat Support Agreement. The LSA only in effect in peace time and under disaster relief operation on either country (US and India). It have no effect when the country is in belligerent states. (I.e. At War)
> 
> The LSA only cover mutual support on logistic effort when one visit another country port, either the US visit the Indian Port in peace time or Indian visited US port in Peacetime. The agreement included logistic issue, communication and security. What it basically do is that India don't need to pay base access fee as well *** logistic package fee when they were to access any US Base in the world and vice versa.
> 
> This does not work when either US or India is at war. At war, belligerence of a country will follow the International Law of War, which unless US have a mutual defence pact with India, if either US or India is at war and docked into the other country which were not belligerent. The neutrality applies and according to International law, the neutral party must intern the Belligerent Ship and have it inspected by International Red Cross.





But I agree with your overall point, that it is always self interest that guides these decisions about membership. France and USA lobbied for NSG waiver for India, because of the huge potential market it opens up.

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## Agent_47



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## OrionHunter

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well, India is finally getting the right idea.
> 
> That's offering something real, not "good will" or other political fluff and flowery words which have no tangible value.
> 
> Intangible things like "good will" and flowery words have no value on the open market. If you want to do some quid-pro-quo we need more offers like these.


Right! Intangibles like emotions and sweet talk have no place in hard nosed diplomacy. China must be given a big carrot of building nuclear power plants in India. Seeing that money makes the mare go, the Chinese should jump at this offer. 

*But the quid pro quo will be to agree to India's entry into the NSG. *


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## trident2010

Great news. Include China also. Two greatest civilisations on earth need cooperation not confrontation


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## Alpha BeeTee

Deeper than the oceans,higher than the mountains,sweeter than honey and stronger than steel...

If you know what I mean


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## maxpayne

proud_indian said:


> what can we offer to china?
> 
> *China-India to Become World's Largest Trading Partners by 2030*


I was referring to nuclear business only as mentioned in title. Obviously both India and China has huge population so more trade.


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## proud_indian

maxpayne said:


> I was referring to nuclear business only as mentioned in title. Obviously both India and China has huge population so more trade.



and you think they would risk this volume of trade which is predominantly in their favour for your inclusion in NSG
so you believe that greater than or higher than bulls*it 

btw The Westinghouse deal we are going to make with the US itself will make them a whole lot of dollars because they are a considerable part of westinghouse supply chain


You didn't watch the video I earlier posted. Did you?


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## maxpayne

proud_indian said:


> and you think they would risk this volume of trade which is predominantly in their favour for your inclusion in NSG
> so you believe that greater than or higher than bulls*it
> 
> btw The Westinghouse deal we are going to make with the US itself will make them a whole lot of dollars because they are a considerable part of westinghouse supply chain
> 
> 
> You didn't watch the video I earlier posted. Did you?


Yes i did. Excluding agriculture, Pakistan is progressing faster than ever. Next year we are hopeful we will jumping even higher. We do not care whatever stakes China has in India, neither does China. China has huge trade/stakes in India, still she went for CPEC. I hope u have understood my point!


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## Alpha BeeTee

With less than a week left in the NSG meet at Seoul,which will decide whether or not India will be allowed entry into the privliged group,China and Turkey have showed no actual signs to support India's bid despite the US and UK pushing all the members to bat for India.

One wonders,what might be the motive of these two countries to block India ? ( I'm so innocent  )

What are the chances of the two relaxing their positions in favor of India now ?

Opinions.


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## HAIDER

Because , they don't like Indian approach of domination . And some other reason don't want to address, which goes back during world war.

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## Laozi

Do you know that India and Pakistan both applied for membership of NSG !!

And very innocently you are asking a simple question as to why China and Turkey are not supporting India.

Did you ever think why rest of 46 Countries are supporting India's membership OR did you ever wonder why only two countries are pushing your case Internationally ?

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## CriticalThinker02

Laozi said:


> Do you know that India and Pakistan both applied for membership of NSG !!
> 
> And very innocently you are asking a simple question as to why China and Turkey are not supporting India.
> 
> Did you ever think why rest of 46 Countries are supporting India's membership OR did you ever wonder why only two countries are pushing your case Internationally ?



China, Turkey, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa and Austria are opposing India's bid for the NSG not just 2 countries.

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## dadeechi

Alpha BeeTee said:


> With less than a week left in the NSG meet at Seoul,which will decide whether or not India will be allowed entry into the privliged group,China and Turkey have showed no actual signs to support India's bid despite the US and UK pushing all the members to bat for India.
> 
> One wonders,what might be the motive of these two countries to block India ? ( I'm so innocent  )
> 
> What are the chances of the two relaxing their positions in favor of India now ?
> 
> Opinions.



India already has the NSG privileges (NSG Waiver) and is just missing the title (NSG Membership)

The key questions are

1) Can they afford to have open enmity with India by opposing now?

2) What would they gain by opposing versus what would they gain by not opposing?

When they did not oppose when it mattered the most (NSG waiver), why do you think they would oppose now.

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## New World

dadeechi said:


> India already has the NSG privileges (NSG Waiver) and is just missing the title (NSG Membership)
> 
> The key question are
> 
> 1) Can they afford to have open enmity with India by opposing now?
> 
> 2) What would they gain by opposing versus what would they gain by not opposing?
> 
> When they did not oppose when it mattered the most (NSG waiver), why do you think they would oppose now.



The Key Answers are.

1) 2 days back chinese troops were spotted roaming in india side of the border.. what kind of enmity you want.

2) They would gain upper hand on regional and international matters.. by Opposing india.

3) They did not oppose because Pakistan did not oppose during NSG waiver..

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## dadeechi

New World said:


> The Key Answers are.
> 
> 1) 2 days back chinese troops were spotted roaming in india side of the border.. what kind of enmity you want.
> 
> 2) They would gain upper hand on regional and international matters.. by Opposing india.
> 
> 3) They did not oppose because Pakistan did not oppose during NSG waiver..



1) The Chinese incursions into Indian territory and Indian incursions into Chinese territory were happening for decades (in fact even before NSG came into existence). Yet China did not oppose NSG waiver for India

2) Upper hand in what way?

3) You mean to say China is taking orders from Pakistan to run its foreign policy? I think Chinese are better than that.

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## Blue Marlin

@waz close this thread the thread starter is asking fro a troll war

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## war&peace

Because both the countries believe in principles and have the ability to take pressure and stand their grounds.

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## New World

dadeechi said:


> 1) The Chinese incursions into Indian territory and Indian incursions into Chinese territory were happening for decades (in fact even before NSG came into existence). Yet China did not oppose NSG waiver for India
> 
> 2) Upper hand in what way?
> 
> 3) You mean to say China is taking orders from Pakistan to run its foreign policy? I think Chinese are better than that.



wow! when did Indian incursion into Chinese territory happened??
at first china oppose india but when zardari was convinced by Hussain haqqani to go green on india.. and after that china says yes..
no i means that china and pakistan working hand by hand on some international and regional issues..

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## bsruzm

Pakistan is Turkey's brother, China's strategic, economic partner though I like India but wouldn't hesitate to fight for Pakistan

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## war&peace

Laozi said:


> Did you ever think why rest of 46 Countries are supporting India's membership OR did you ever wonder why only two countries are pushing your case Internationally ?


India decided to be a pet of uncle sam, so they are not supporting India but bowing down to uncle sam. If uncle stops caressing India's tail, you will see the change.

Furthermore Pakistan unfortunately has not been doing good on diplomatic front due to the corrupt and incompetent govt of NS. And still most of them will support Pakistan.

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## Stealth

Laozi said:


> Do you know that India and Pakistan both applied for membership of NSG !!
> 
> And very innocently you are asking a simple question as to why China and Turkey are not supporting India.
> 
> Did you ever think why rest of 46 Countries are supporting India's membership OR did you ever wonder why only two countries are pushing your case Internationally ?



who told you rest of 46 supporting you ?????



dadeechi said:


> 1) The Chinese incursions into Indian territory and Indian incursions into Chinese territory were happening for decades (in fact even before NSG came into existence). Yet China did not oppose NSG waiver for India
> 
> 2) Upper hand in what way?
> 
> 3) You mean to say China is taking orders from Pakistan to run its foreign policy? I think Chinese are better than that.



ahhahahahhah since when Indian incursions into Chinese Territory ???  all we know is... after every week, Chinese forces incursion into your territory (according to your own designed map)

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## Talwar e Pakistan

bsruzm said:


> Pakistan is Turkey's brother, China's strategic, economic partner though I like India but wouldn't hesitate to fight for Pakistan


Thankyou brother, it means a lot; we won't hesitate to fight for Turkey either.

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## dadeechi

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Thankyou brother, it means a lot; we won't hesitate to fight for Turkey either.



So, are implying that Pakistan is joining Turkey to fight in Syria. If this is true then Pakistan would be going for Eurofighters instead of SU-35s.

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## Guynextdoor2

New World said:


> The Key Answers are.
> 
> 1) 2 days back chinese troops were spotted roaming in india side of the border.. what kind of enmity you want.
> 
> *2) They would gain upper hand on regional and international matters.. by Opposing india.*
> 
> 3) They did not oppose because Pakistan did not oppose during NSG waiver..



Lol!!



bsruzm said:


> Pakistan is Turkey's brother, China's strategic, economic partner though I like India but wouldn't hesitate to fight for Pakistan



Everyone knows why Turkey is not suppoting India . It has nothing to do with Pakistan brother etc,.


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## Providence

A lot has been said on this forum about India losing out in it's bid for NSG entry. What exactly would they lose out on may I ask after the waiver ?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

bsruzm said:


> Pakistan is Turkey's brother, China's strategic, economic partner though I like India but wouldn't hesitate to fight for Pakistan



This strong sense of brotherhood has been passed on to generations of ours and we will pass it on further. Materialistic world will never understand our relationship because they tend to see everything with the eye of "profit and interest". Pakistan and Turkey have already gone beyond that. I m waiting for a day when we can visit each other country via road through Iran. One day, it'll happen, oh yes, it'll happen.

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## Laozi

Stealth said:


> who told you rest of 46 supporting you ?????



One should follow the principle of never counting the number of friends and never making any enemies.

The figure of 46 is derived from the OP which states that only 2 countries out of 48 are pushing Pakistani cause which is to block India's bid at NSG.

Therefore rest of the countries seems okay with India's inclusion

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## New World

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone knows why Turkey is not suppoting India . It has nothing to do with Pakistan brother etc,.


can you clarify in detail about Turkish opposition other than Pakistan

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## eddie01

war&peace said:


> ndia decided to be a pet of uncle sam, so they are not supporting India but bowing down before uncle sam. If uncle stop caressing India's tail, you will see the change.
> 
> Furthermore Pakistan unfortunately has not been doing good on diplomatic front due to the corrupt and incompetent govt of NS. And still most of them will support Pakistan.



change is quite visible my friend but it seems you are clueless at this point of time.. for US supporting India's bid for membership first , there are 48 countries and US is one of them and mind you rest all 47 are sovereign country with independent foreign policy unlike pakistan.

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## Mirza Jatt

war&peace said:


> *India decided to be a pet of uncle sam*, so they are not supporting India but bowing down before uncle sam. If uncle stop caressing India's tail, you will see the change.



Pakistan was (is) America's slave for decades. Ever since Independence you were allies without being allies. you gave themm your soldiers to die for..you gave them you land to operate from making it a war zone, your people get killed by their drones, yet you obeyed them like real slaves. I am not saying this, its your people who say this. Now what id you gain by being a slave ?? Nothing. So your point about India is just as naive as you as a country are. India is just expoilting them which YOU COULD HAVE, sorry to say but your policy makers f**ked it up for your country. Its called playing your cards diplomatically.



> Furthermore Pakistan unfortunately has not been doing good on diplomatic front due to the corrupt and incompetent govt of NS. And *still most of them will support Pakistan*.



Lol. lets wait for the results then.



Providence said:


> A lot has been said on this forum about India losing out in it's bid for NSG entry. What exactly would they lose out on may I ask after the waiver ?



Just the titl of being a member of NSG, we already enjoy all the membership benefits. Nothing to lose really.

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## anant_s

NEW DELHI: China is not opposed to India's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group, External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj has clarified. She said Beijing is only focussed on criteria procedure to India's membership to the elite nuclear club.









> *Highlights*
> 
> China's concerns lie with criterion procedure: Swaraj
> India not opposed to membership of any country based on merits, she said, when asked about Pakistan's NSG bid
> India looking to wrap up NSG membership in 2016, said the Foreign Minister


Swaraj's comments came at a news conference to outline the foreign policy achievements of the Narendra Modi government over the past two years, as well as about recent developments. Her comments also came just days after External Affairs secretary S Jaishankar visited Beijing to discuss India's NSG bid.

China has been seen globally as the sole impediment to India's entry into the global nuclear trade regime . While some sources have attributed China's decision to put the brakes on India's bid to concerns over the strategic balance in its own neighbourhood, other have said Beijing is insisting on similar waivers to be extended to its all-weather ally, Pakistan.

Swaraj also fielded questions on the India's attempt to join the NSG in relation to Pakistan 's own bid. "As far as our stand on Pakistan's NSG membership is concerned, India is not opposed to the entry of any nation into the NSG. We would want any application to be considered on its own merits," said Swaraj.

She added that she was hopeful of moving India's membership process forward. "We are hopeful. We will be able to convince China as well. We are in touch with 23 nations on this issue. One or two of them had raised concerns, but I think a general consensus is there," she said.

The Modi government would attempt to ensure that India's NSG membership becomes a reality by the end of this year, the External Affairs Minister stressed. "The NSG membership has assumed importance this year in light of the leadership role that India projected on the global stage at the Paris climate talks," she said.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...eijing-Sushma-Swaraj/articleshow/52819513.cms

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## anant_s

Its good to see government moving forward in a positive manner and not taking a confrontational stand with China. Sending a diplomat to engage with China is a very mature move and unlike media which wants knee jerk reaction, policy makers are treading the road carefully.

@Abingdonboy @Levina @Rain Man @nair @Chinese-Dragon

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## Laozi



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## dadeechi

I have already confirmed the same in the following thread. The fact that EAM is now making that commitment public implies that there is confidence in that agreement.

https://defence.pk/threads/india-holds-fire-on-china-opposition-to-nsg-bid-hopes-for-dragon-nod.434445/#post-8371667



dadeechi said:


> India has already comitted that it would not be blocking Pakistan's application in return for China not blocking India's.








https://defence.pk/threads/china-au...d-oppose-india-nsg.434199/page-2#post-8368383







https://defence.pk/threads/india-no...liers-group-swaraj.435542/page-3#post-8393041



dadeechi said:


> That is the point. The main contention was that once India is in NSG it would prevent Pakistan's case.
> 
> India is saying that it would not oppose Pakistan's application once it is in NSG.
> 
> China can in fact use India's case as an example to push Pakistan's case.
> 
> The million dollar question is how Pakistan can go past the opposition from the West.
> 
> Russia, China & India would be supporting or not opposing Pakistan's application.



https://defence.pk/threads/india-no...liers-group-swaraj.435542/page-3#post-8393153




dadeechi said:


> There are multiple arguments that have been put forwarded by China in opposing India's case
> 
> 1) *India being a non-NPT member should not be accorded NSG membership*. This was more to counter West's opposition to Pakistan's case and to use India to push Pakistan's case. Now India has argued that by allowing India into NSG, China can in fact use India's case as a precedent for Pakistan's case
> 
> 2) *Once India is NSG it can veto Pakistan's case*. To allay those fears, India has given a commitment to China that it would not veto Pakistan's application as and when it is ready
> 
> 3) *Both India & Pakistan should be accorded NSG membership simultaneously*. India's position has been that India has started this quest more than a decade ago and has used lot of political capital to obtain agreement from all the other members while Pakistan has just started its quest. Both these application decisions should be delinked and considered on their own merit and support.

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## ~|Cyanide|~

Providence said:


> A lot has been said on this forum about India losing out in it's bid for NSG entry. What exactly would they lose out on may I ask after the waiver ?



Pakistan does not oppose India acquiring better capability in terms of nuclear tech or conventional warfare as it is their right, we only look to balance it afterwards. In NSG case India may or may not get any additional perks than what they already enjoy but they will however get the ability to have a say in their affairs i.e veto power that means Pakistan will never be able to join NSG if they get the membership.

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## Guynextdoor2

New World said:


> can you clarify in detail about Turkish opposition other than Pakistan



Considers itself Most powerful country outside the US in NATO (at least at par with UK & France if not 'more') believes it deserves the seat as much as they do. Therefore is pissed that India might get it in spite of their 'big' sacrifices for NATO by turkey (hosting nuclear missiles against soviet union etc.). Not possible though, India is immensely more powerful than Turkey. Not having India inside UNSC is like not taming the Rhino that's charging down the field and making a joke out of every major international treaty (MTCR, NSG etc.). Every global effort to contain India has failed- Long range submersible missiles outside MTCR, rockets to mars despite 15 years spent in keeping India away from cryogenic tech, nuclear weapons and thermonuclear bombs outside of NSG.

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## SrNair

So our diplomatic moves works very well in there .It seems

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## SrNair

Waqkz said:


> China, Turkey, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa and Austria are opposing India's bid for the NSG not just 2 countries.



Now that is an old story .
US ,entire West ,India's close friends working in here .
China ,Turkey are the only two nation that oppose us .
But as any other nation that interested in permanent long term gain.They will analyse that very well.
Advantages that they get if they support us and disadvantages if they dont etc .
Let see



Guynextdoor2 said:


> Considers itself Most powerful country outside the US in NATO (at least at par with UK & France if not 'more') believes it deserves the seat as much as they do. Therefore is pissed that India might get it in spite of their 'big' sacrifices for NATO by turkey (hosting nuclear missiles against soviet union etc.). Not possible though, India is immensely more powerful than Turkey. Not having India inside UNSC is like not taming the Rhino that's charging down the field and making a joke out of every major international treaty (MTCR, NSG etc.). Every global effort to contain India has failed- Long range submersible missiles outside MTCR, rockets to mars despite 15 years spent in keeping India away from cryogenic tech, nuclear weapons and thermonuclear bombs outside of NSG.



Well they can also understand the gap between Turkey and India .
NSG is just a formality ,we are already benefitting that from the waiver .
If they oppose they wont get anything but an unwanted irritation from India and rest of the West .
Not good for them in long term.

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## Bad Guy

I will only be happy when China unexpectedly changes her stance and make us elect in NSG.

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## mike2000 is back

Alpha BeeTee said:


> With less than a week left in the NSG meet at Seoul,which will decide whether or not India will be allowed entry into the privliged group,China and Turkey have showed no actual signs to support India's bid despite the US and UK pushing all the members to bat for India.
> 
> One wonders,what might be the motive of these two countries to block India ? ( I'm so innocent  )
> 
> What are the chances of the two relaxing their positions in favor of India now ?
> 
> Opinions.



U.S and U.K have been pushing for India to be part of the NSG. It's a give-take relationship, we get some deals they get access to lots of other stuffs as well. To be honest, i don't see why India shouldn't be included, it has been a responsible nuclear power for since it acquired nuclear weapons. So no reason it shouldn't be included today. The time we imposed sanctions for nuclear tests is long gone. So no reason they shouldn't be included today.

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## T-123456

Is there a veto right?


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## Mirza Jatt

T-123456 said:


> Is there a veto right?



yes. the members have the power to veto a new entry.

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## HAIDER

In 1974 Z A Bhutto PM of Pakistan asked Bulent Ecevit if he need Pakistan armed forced for back up during Cyprus invasion. Bhutto also ordered Pak armed forces ready for mobilization, if situation get worst for Turkey.

During 1971 stand off between Pak-India . Angry Chairman Mao ordered full mobilization of Chinese army to help Pakistan . Historian writes, China was very angry at US attitude toward Pakistan during 71.( its long debate, just writing in short).

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## Guynextdoor2

HAIDER said:


> In 1974 Z A Bhutto PM of Pakistan asked Bulent Ecevit if he need Pakistan armed forced for back up during Cyprus invasion. Bhutto also ordered Pak armed forces ready for mobilization, if situation get worst for Turkey.
> 
> During 1971 stand off between Pak-India . Angry Chairman Mao ordered full mobilization of Chinese army to help Pakistan . Historian writes, China was very angry at US attitude toward Pakistan during 71.( its long debate, just writing in short).



a lot of the stuff you wrote....is BS.....


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## HAIDER

Guynextdoor2 said:


> a lot of the stuff you wrote....is BS.....


Really , let's listen Indian BS then....


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## Guynextdoor2

HAIDER said:


> Really , let's listen Indian BS then....



Just facts.
US didn't care two hoots about pak in 1971, apart from making some nice sounding voices the only thing they cared about was that kissinger's detente mission to china should remain a secret. And that was the rub- with detente proceeding behind the scenes they couldn't criticize Pakistan, sure millions may have been affected by your military crackdown but millions more were affected by chairman mao's revolution. You don't want to bring his dark actions being referred to just a few months before he emerges the new 'big friend' USA.

Chairman mao cared two hoots about Pak too. 'mobilize his entire army' just a few weeks before his master move to checkmate the Soviet Union by forging an alliance with USA? You gotta be smoking pot to cook that up.

in 1971 Pak's fate was a complete sideshow to the real earthshaking events of the world. Your mistake was to consider their friendly sounding words as serious, in believing somehow that your little country should outweigh the massive concerns of the cold war world. Comprende?



Providence said:


> A lot has been said on this forum about India losing out in it's bid for NSG entry. What exactly would they lose out on may I ask after the waiver ?



Not materially or technologically, but being in the high table of NSG and MTCR will allow india to better bargain for UNSC.

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## HAIDER

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Just facts.
> US didn't care two hoots about pak in 1971, apart from making some nice sounding voices the only thing they cared about was that kissinger's detente mission to china should remain a secret. And that was the rub- with detente proceeding behind the scenes they couldn't criticize Pakistan, sure millions may have been affected by your military crackdown but millions more were affected by chairman mao's revolution. You don't want to bring his dark actions being referred to just a few months before he emerges the new 'big friend' USA.
> 
> Chairman mao cared two hoots about Pak too. 'mobilize his entire army' just a few weeks before his master move to checkmate the Soviet Union by forging an alliance with USA? You gotta be smoking pot to cook that up.
> 
> in 1971 Pak's fate was a complete sideshow to the real earthshaking events of the world. Your mistake was to consider their friendly sounding words as serious, in believing somehow that your little country should outweigh the massive concerns of the cold war world. Comprende?
> 
> 
> 
> Not materially or technologically, but being in the high table of NSG and MTCR will allow india to better bargain for UNSC.


That's you perspective, but history is little different .As far as UNSC seat its West and US approach to neutralize China nothing else.


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## war&peace

Mirza Jatt said:


> Pakistan was (is) America's slave for decades. Ever since Independence you were allies without being allies. you gave themm your soldiers to die for..you gave them you land to operate from making it a war zone, your people get killed by their drones, yet you obeyed them like real slaves. I am not saying this, its your people who say this. Now what id you gain by being a slave ?? Nothing. So your point about India is just as naive as you as a country are. India is just expoilting them which YOU COULD HAVE, sorry to say but your policy makers f**ked it up for your country. Its called playing your cards diplomatically.


I was replying to the question to the question. But you are talking the discussion in a wrong way. I just told him the reason why other countries are supporting and I did not ask why US is not supporting Pakistan so this butthurt rant of yours is totally unnecessary.


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## Guynextdoor2

HAIDER said:


> That's you perspective, but history is little different .As far as UNSC seat its West and US approach to neutralize China nothing else.



what i said is called 'real' history. Not the stuff you cook up to give an acceptable version of things. Sooooooo much support you got, god a massive invasion of your territory was launched by India by air, sea and land, tanks rolled in, armed groups sent in who were trained for many many months, a massive diplomatic effort made before the invasion and post --- and nothing except some nice sounding words? 

The dismemberment of pakistan was not achieved like East Timor or even germany through events spread over months and years....it was done in a massive assault that lasted eight days flat....and no one bothers to put a credible defense of your stand?

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## HAIDER

Guynextdoor2 said:


> what i said is called 'real' history. Not the stuff you cook up to give an acceptable version of things. Sooooooo much support you got, god a massive invasion of your territory was launched by India by air, sea and land, tanks rolled in, armed groups sent in who were trained for many many months, a massive diplomatic effort made before the invasion and post --- and nothing except some nice sounding words?
> 
> The dismemberment of pakistan was not achieved like East Timor or even germany through events spread over months and years....it was done in a massive assault that lasted eight days flat....and no one bothers to put a credible defense of your stand?


Nope, at that time Pakistan had " failed foreign policy ", where President of that time was totally dependent on US, CENTO etc, and unexpected behavior of US. And, Yes on top of very dirty work by Indian govt, stab in the back of Pakistani state.


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## Guynextdoor2

HAIDER said:


> Nope, at that time Pakistan had " failed foreign policy ", where President of that time was totally dependent on US, CENTO etc, and unexpected behavior of US. And, Yes on top of very dirty work by Indian govt, stab in the back of Pakistani state.



man you really smoke the good stuff don't you?


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Just facts.
> US didn't care two hoots about pak in 1971, apart from making some nice sounding voices the only thing they cared about was that kissinger's detente mission to china should remain a secret. And that was the rub- with detente proceeding behind the scenes they couldn't criticize Pakistan, sure millions may have been affected by your military crackdown but millions more were affected by chairman mao's revolution. You don't want to bring his dark actions being referred to just a few months before he emerges the new 'big friend' USA.
> 
> Chairman mao cared two hoots about Pak too. 'mobilize his entire army' just a few weeks before his master move to checkmate the Soviet Union by forging an alliance with USA? You gotta be smoking pot to cook that up.
> 
> in 1971 Pak's fate was a complete sideshow to the real earthshaking events of the world. Your mistake was to consider their friendly sounding words as serious, in believing somehow that your little country should outweigh the massive concerns of the cold war world. Comprende?
> 
> 
> 
> Not materially or technologically, but being in the high table of NSG and MTCR will allow india to better bargain for UNSC.




Since Pakistan has become a nuclear weapons state with the ability to produce H-bombs and thermonuclear weapons since at least early 2011 :

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/

Reality for Pakistan now is that we don't need any foreign help/assistance in order to defeat our enemies. We can now do it ourselves. Pakistan is too powerful militarily for any nation to attack/invade us without suffering unacceptable damage and loses. indian military high command know this all too well. That's why india was powerless to attack Pakistan after mumbai 26/11/2008 even though india is 8 times bigger than Pakistan. This is also the same reason why Saudi Arabia was begging Pakistan in late 2015 to help them defeat the Houthi rebels.

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## HAIDER

Guynextdoor2 said:


> man you really smoke the good stuff don't you?


Ok man , I believe whatever you are saying. ...Yes, Indian did its homework well to break the East Pakistan.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Guynextdoor2 said:


> what i said is called 'real' history. Not the stuff you cook up to give an acceptable version of things. Sooooooo much support you got, god a massive invasion of your territory was launched by India by air, sea and land, tanks rolled in, armed groups sent in who were trained for many many months, a massive diplomatic effort made before the invasion and post --- and nothing except some nice sounding words?
> 
> The dismemberment of pakistan was not achieved like East Timor or even germany through events spread over months and years....it was done in a massive assault that lasted eight days flat....and no one bothers to put a credible defense of your stand?




The creation of bangladesh was sealed on the14th of August 1947. It was inevitable. It doesn't matter if it happened in 1971, 1981, 1991, 2001 or 2011 for that matter. YOU CANNOT form a nation of 2 different land masses separated by 1000s of kms where the 2 peoples differ in terms of genetics, race, heritage, culture and way of life. It's impossible. This is precisely the reason why Pakistan was created. India took advantage of this fact in 1971. Nothing more, nothing less.

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## Levina

anant_s said:


> Sending a diplomat to engage with China is a very mature move and unlike media which wants knee jerk reaction, policy makers are treading the road carefully.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Levina @Rain Man @nair @Chinese-Dragon










  



Laozi said:


> View attachment 311711


  Good one!

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## shree835

I believe CHINA should use veto power to block India's entry into NSG...It will help us to create a momentum against CHINI company in India...and It will help us a lot to kick out CHINI company from India.... In the same time one more good news is there about 100% FDI.... This decision will help a lot to screw-up the relationship between INDIA-CHINA.... PLEASE CHINA GO FOR IT.


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## IblinI

shree835 said:


> I believe CHINA should use veto power to block India's entry into NSG...It will help us to create a momentum against CHINI company in India...and It will help us a lot to kick out CHINI company from India.... In the same time one more good news is there about 100% FDI.... This decision will help a lot to screw-up the relationship between INDIA-CHINA.... PLEASE CHINA GO FOR IT.


You are actually burning.


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## shree835

YuChen said:


> You are actually burning.



Nope... trust me ... from my deep of my heart I want CHINA to take this step... It will be miracle for India.


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## IblinI

shree835 said:


> Nope... trust me ... from my deep of my heart I want CHINA to take this step... It will be miracle for India.


Here i quote ”It will help us to create a momentum against CHINI company in India...and It will help us a lot to kick out CHINI company from India".
Am i not living in a Globalization world?


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## shree835

YuChen said:


> Here i quote ”It will help us to create a momentum against CHINI company in India...and It will help us a lot to kick out CHINI company from India".
> Am i not living in a Globalization world?



Globalization world?...

First thing you have to remember that for us India is first ... And you know well ... China is not at all friend of India.

Second point we don see any good thing in India China tie... End of the day China is India's Enemy State.... This is the only fact.


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## IblinI

shree835 said:


> Globalization world?...
> 
> First thing you have to remember that for us India is first ... And you know well ... China is not at all friend of India.
> 
> Second point we don see any good thing in India China tie... End of the day China is India's Enemy State.... This is the only fact.[/QUOTE
> 
> Is US a friend of China?But they are our biggest Business partner, rejecting foreign investment is not how it work now day,pal.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Hey @arbit why are you guys being so stingy?

You gave up your sovereignty to American troops by signing CISMOA/LSA in exchange for US support on your NSG entry, yet you're only offering a few nuclear reactor deals to us? 

Man what we are asking for is peanuts in comparison to that. 

(UNSC seat not included of course. You can offer more for that later.)


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## arbit

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hey @arbit why are you guys being so stingy?
> 
> You gave up your sovereignty to American troops by signing CISMOA/LSA in exchange for US support on your NSG entry, yet you're only offering a few nuclear reactor deals to us?
> 
> Man what we are asking for is peanuts in comparison.
> 
> (UNSC seat not included of course. You can offer more for that later.)



LOL @Chinese-Dragon It was totally unnecessary for you to come to this thread to make a point. But i understand the thinking behind it.
You might take silly shots at us signing CISMOA/LSA ( which aren't signed btw), but don't forget to read the fine print. A piece of paper promising fuel supply and communication commonality (Later in future) in exchange of membership in NSG (NOW). Hey, we will take it. Thanks very much 

As for offering you peanuts in exchange for your not vetoing NSG, well you get what you deserve. We will offer you a banana when we take a shot at UNSC seat. Though don't hold your breath over it


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## Chinese-Dragon

arbit said:


> LOL @Chinese-Dragon It was totally unnecessary for you to come to this thread to make a point. But i understand the thinking behind it.
> You might take silly shots at us signing CISMOA/LSA ( which aren't signed btw), but don't forget to read the fine print. A piece of paper promising fuel supply and communication commonality (Later in future) in exchange of membership in NSG (NOW). Hey, we will take it. Thanks very much
> 
> As for offering you peanuts in exchange for your not vetoing NSG, well you get what you deserve. We will offer you a banana when we take a shot at UNSC seat. Though don't hold your breath over it



I don't think you understand what a *veto *is. 

It means we can shut down any resolution and any entry into both the NSG and the UNSC, no questions asked. No conditions. We don't even need to give a reason for it.

Modi knows that, which is why he is offering to let China build reactors and industrial parks in India, but that's being stingy. You sold your sovereignty with the CISMOA/LSA, in exchange for American support on your NSG entry, but you won't even get it since we can veto it.

What Modi offered is not enough. What else is India offering?


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## Dash

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I don't think you understand what a *veto *is.
> 
> It means we can shut down any resolution and any entry into both the NSG and the UNSC, no questions asked. No conditions. We don't even need to give a reason for it.
> 
> Modi knows that, which is why he is offering to let China build reactors and industrial parks in India, but that's being stingy. You sold your sovereignty with the CISMOA/LSA, in exchange for American support on your NSG entry, but you won't even get it since we can veto it.
> 
> What Modi offered is not enough. What else is India offering?



Your intellectual ability is running on kerosene these days compared to Petrol earlier.

OK if you had veto power why the hell you didn't veto way back in 2008 and what were you doing in IAEA hearing?


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## arbit

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I don't think you understand what a veto is.
> 
> It means we can shut down any resolution and any entry into both the NSG and the UNSC, no questions asked. No conditions. We don't even need to give a reason for it.
> 
> Modi knows that, which is why he is offering to let China build reactors and industrial parks in India, but that's being stingy. You sold your sovereignty with the CISMOA/LSA, in exchange for American support on your NSG entry, but you won't even get it since we can veto it.
> 
> What Modi offered is not enough. What else is India offering?



Banana. You want it? 

Nothing is forever. We know this. And we know you also know this. The tactic Chinese are applying is to delay as much as they can, but as we grow in economic and military stature, NSG like memberships will fall by the wayside, of course depending upon how much we want it. 
Veto is useful. Yes. But to rely upon as a sort of kill switch to Indian ambition and capability would be foolishness. The best course of action - as i have always maintained - is for India China to cooperate. But in your hubris and arrogance and too much confidence in your policy to prop pakistan against us, you are being myopic. 
Hey but its your decision. You play your cards we will play ours and in the mean time if we get quicker access to State of the Art tech and FDI to prep our economy, well we are not complaining


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## Chinese-Dragon

Dash said:


> Your intellectual ability is running on kerosene these days compared to Petrol earlier.



Wow, nice guy. 

But maybe you can tell me why is Modi being so stingy? Only a couple of nuclear reactor deals and industrial park deals.

Whereas he already sold India's sovereignty to USA by signing CISMOA/LSA in exchange for NSG support. Surely you think your soveriengty is worth more than a few reactor and industrial park deals?

China and India hardly get along, why should we give you it for free, when you already paid America so much for it? What we are asking for is literally nothing compared to what you already paid to the USA.

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## neem456

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hey @arbit why are you guys being so stingy?
> 
> You gave up your sovereignty to American troops by signing CISMOA/LSA in exchange for US support on your NSG entry, yet you're only offering a few nuclear reactor deals to us?
> 
> Man what we are asking for is peanuts in comparison to that.
> 
> (UNSC seat not included of course. You can offer more for that later.)



And who are you ? You talk like you are chinese government and trying to craft a deal with india for nsg seat on internet forum.
You know you sound funny, right ?


----------



## Dash

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wow, nice guy.
> 
> But maybe you can tell me why is Modi being so stingy? Only a couple of nuclear reactor deals and industrial park deals.
> 
> Whereas he already sold India's sovereignty to USA by signing CISMOA/LSA in exchange for NSG support. Surely you think your soveriengty is worth more than a few reactor and industrial park deals?
> 
> China and India hardly get along, why should we give you it for free, when you already paid America so much for it? What we are asking for is literally nothing compared to what you already paid to the USA.




Looks you have attained saturation these days and that's why you keep repeating the same sermons.

Sure we don't get along and why should we. But by giving two nuclear reactors aren't we trying. Consider it as a baby step bro. Accept the offer and move along with us and we with you.

The cismoa/LSA can be worked out later. And btw thanks for giving us a seat in SCO.
And if you have more demands then put it on the table. I'm sure we will have enough oxygen for your large heart.


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## Chinese-Dragon

neem456 said:


> And who are you ? You talk like you are chinese government and trying to craft a deal with india for nsg seat on internet forum.
> You know you sound funny, right ?



I am simply asking why India is being so stingy. 

They sold their sovereignty to America by signing CISMOA/LSA in exchange for NSG support, and to China they are only offering a few nuclear reactor deals and industrial park deals (if we do not use veto power). Is that really what you think your sovereignty is worth?

Surely it's worth a few more deals. Maybe some more Chinese trains and railways to add to the already existing ones in Delhi metro and Kolkata metro.


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## neem456

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I am simply asking why India is being so stingy.
> 
> They sold their sovereignty to America by signing CISMOA/LSA in exchange for NSG support, and to China they are only offering a few nuclear reactor deals and industrial park deals (if we do not use veto power). Is that really what you think your sovereignty is worth?



Because that is all you are worth it and your foreign minister have already started to bend down just for some reactors.

So why did china bend down so easily just for some reactors ?


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## Chinese-Dragon

neem456 said:


> Because that is all you are worth it and your foreign minister have already started to bend down just for some reactors.
> 
> So why did china bend down so easily just for some reactors ?



That's funny, isn't it India who signed the CISMOA/LSA which allows American troops to operate out of Indian soil? 

That's your entire sovereignty you sold for NSG support, and the USA can't even give you a seat because China has veto. 

And a few reactors are not enough, you sold your sovereignty to America so we want an equally good deal in terms of reactors, industrial parks, trains/railways, etc. Offer however much you think your sovereignty was worth.

Or maybe you think it really was worth only 2 reactors and 2 industrial parks. Better than nothing I guess.

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## arbit

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's funny, isn't it India who signed the CISMOA/LSA which allows American troops to operate out of Indian soil?
> 
> That's your entire sovereignty you sold for NSG support, and the USA can't even give you a seat because China has veto.
> 
> And a few reactors are not enough, you sold your sovereignty to America so we want an equally good deal in terms of reactors, industrial parks, trains/railways, etc. Offer however much you think your sovereignty was worth.
> 
> Or maybe you think it really was worth only 2 reactors and 2 industrial parks. Better than nothing I guess.



Dude you are repetitive. 

Still can't get anything original eh (Pun intended)


Edit: on a different note @Chinese-Dragon the saying in my signature. Is the translation correct?


----------



## neem456

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's funny, isn't it India who signed the CISMOA/LSA which allows American troops to operate out of Indian soil?
> 
> That's your entire sovereignty you sold for NSG support, and the USA can't even give you a seat because China has veto.
> 
> And a few reactors are not enough, you sold your sovereignty to America so we want an equally good deal in terms of reactors, industrial parks, trains/railways, etc. Offer however much you think your sovereignty was worth.
> 
> Or maybe you think it really was worth only 2 reactors and 2 industrial parks. Better than nothing I guess.



Well your foreign minister disagrees with you, she has already made a uturn on her statement.

So you did not answer my question, how come she agreed so cheaply for 2 reactors, or was it uncle sam pressure that she gave up ?

Btw, what more do you need to sell out your deeper than sea ally pakistan. They are reading, you can speak out.


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## Chinese-Dragon

arbit said:


> Edit: on a different note @Chinese-Dragon the saying in my signature. Is the translation correct?



Yes. The Dragon King controls water, but the water can still destroy his own temple.



neem456 said:


> So you did not answer my question, how come she agreed so cheaply for 2 reactors, or was it uncle sam pressure that she gave up ?



We did not agree at all.  Latest news is that China rejected any mention of it at the Seoul summit.

So clearly this offer was not enough.


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## neem456

Chinese-Dragon said:


> destroy his own temple.
> 
> 
> 
> We did not agree at all.  Latest news is that China rejected any mention of it at the Seoul summit.
> 
> So clearly this offer was not enough.



NVM that we will come to know on 24th.

Btw you ignore my other question.
What more do you need to sell out your deeper than sea ally pakistan. They are reading, you can speak out.


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## Nilgiri

Sign/promise as many MOU's as needed with China for Nuclear trade/investment.

Renege on them later/interpret them as needed once we get NSG membership.

That's what China itself has done countless times worldwide.

If all else fails, just make a new grouping without China and countries can withdraw from NSG as well even once admitted into the new group. That would be pretty hillarious. Then when only China and Turkey are left in NSG, they can admit Pakistan in it ....but by then IAEA would have a better working relationship with the new group (NSG v 2.0) anyway.

Win win for everyone.

Important thing to realise is that China puts a premium on saving face. India administration seems to have realised that, so watch the events unfold this year

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## Genghis khan1

*India’s NSG bid hits snag: Members rake up non-NPT status, oppose induction*
*Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India's NSG bid citing its non-NPT status.*
326
SHARES
Express Web Desk | New Delhi | Updated: June 23, 2016 10:24 pm






According to the Ministry of External Affair (MEA), PM Modi urged China to make a fair and objective assessment of India’s application on merit.
At the Nuclear Security Group plenary meeting in Seoul Thursday, it appears that China is not the sole opponent of India’s induction into the 48-member group.

Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India’s NSG bid citing its non-NPT status, according to news agency ANI. Mexico, however, made good of its promise to back India’s bid at the meeting after Prime Minister Narendra Modi sought their support during his recent visit to the country.

It must have come as a surprise to India after Brazil, a key ally and member of the BRICS, has put its foot down against its bid. A clear consensus among the member states is yet to emerge regarding India’s accession to the group.

Interestingly, no discussion took place on the induction of Pakistan to the NSG, despite China backing its bid.

PM Modi today met Chinese President Xi Jinping in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. According to the Ministry of External Affair (MEA), PM Modi urged China to make a fair and objective assessment of India’s application on merit.

Pakistan President, who is also in Tashkent for the SCO, told Xi Jinping that any exemptions given to a country for NSG membership could disturb strategic stability in South Asia.

India currently has the backing of France, USA, Japan among others.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ndia-nsg-bid-meet-seoul-live-updates-2871865/

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## fsayed

@nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @Stephen Cohen @anant_s

@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @ranjeet

@GURU DUTT @HariPrasad 
http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...id-strong-opposition/articleshow/52888358.cms


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## fsayed

Take a look at @abpnewshindi's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/745981050388545536


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## Spring Onion

There was a special meeting called for discussing the possibility. What is the update?


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## Genghis khan1

Home
India





*Big setback to India's NSG dream as multiple countries oppose induction*
Narendra Modi (File Photo)


 DNA WEB TEAM | Thu, 23 Jun 2016-07:22pm , dna webdesk


The countries' opposition to India's induction in the NSG league could seriously hit India's chances.

In a massive setback to India, China along with three other countries on Thursday including Brazil, Austria and New Zealand opposed India's induction into NSG citing India being a non NPT state.

The plenary session of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) began in Seoul on Thursday as Prime Minister Narendra Modi held parleys with Chinese President Xi Jinping in Tashkent to make a last minute push for New Delhi's entry into the 48-member elite group.

Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar is presently in Seoul to lobby for India's entry into the elite group. Sources told ANI the NSG members will be meeting for a special session in Seoul tonight and India's membership bid is likely to come up for discussion.

Sources also said that the meeting between Prime Minister Modi and Chinese President is crucial in Tashkent because the decision taken there will be informed to the Indian team in Seoul. China, till now, has been playing the role of a dampener on the issue of clearing the way for India's admission to the NSG by repeatedly stating that it is not on the agenda of the grouping, which began its plenary session in Seoul on Monday.

China has maintained that more talks were needed to build a consensus on which countries can join the 48-nation NSG following the United States' push to include India in the elite group. The countries, who oppose India's membership, argue that its inclusion in the group would further undermine efforts to prevent proliferation and also infuriate New Delhi's rival Pakistan.

Islamabad, which enjoys the backing of its close ally China, has also responded to India's membership bid and asked for its admission as well. Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz had said that the government's "active and successful foreign policy" has blocked India's entry into the NSG, adding that New Delhi would not be able to join the group alone.

He also said that he had recently approached many countries, including Russia, Mexico, South Korea and New Zealand, to gain their support on Islamabad's viewpoint that there should be a criteria-based approach while deciding about inclusion of any country into the NSG.

_With agency inputs_

*19:50 IST Thursday, 23 June 2016

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...hree-other-countries-oppose-induction-2227084*


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## dray

Build up the pressure, it will happen, if not in this time then in next round.

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## Imran Khan



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## Mirza Jatt

awesome.... so no opposition from Switzerland and Mexico this time around. !

P.S: we've seen these temporary downfalls in GSLV, MTCR, NSG waivers, etc. We will come back very soon for NSG as well..keep watching.

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## Guynextdoor2

Strangely Pakistan's name is not there. Does this mean you supported us behind the scene (usually happens, Pak supports India behind the scenes on important issues)

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## Sharpshooter12

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Strangely Pakistan's name is not there. Does this mean you supported us behind the scene (usually happens, Pak supports India behind the scenes on important issues)


Yes we have a secret crush on you guys, or perhaps it is because Pakistan is not a member of NSG.

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## hunter_hunted

Forget everything NSG is small thing , focus on this line "Pakistan President, who is also in Tashkent for the SCO"

So it is true we do have president

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## Genghis khan1

Arshad mahmood Hussain said:


> Let the randi ronaa commence


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## somebozo

yeh to paap hogya...

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## Guynextdoor2

Sharpshooter12 said:


> Yes we have a secret crush on you guys, or perhaps it is because Pakistan is not a member of NSG.



Don't mean you won't support it 'privately'. We seen that often in some...ahem...security council seats. My belief is that you're posturing now. If china strikes a deal, you'll probably not play a big spoiltsport by going it on your own. Of course publicly the usual trappings of 'this is ridiculous, India evil country etc. you will loudly say. But behind the scenes you'll probably be focusing on 'give and take' discussions with India. Is that too much of a surprising series of events for you? Are you gonna take a Zaid Hamid type stand?

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## war&peace

"You Patistanis donno the riching anch chining India"..."no except for China all are on our side since uncle sam has been caressing and holding our tail"

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## New World

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Strangely Pakistan's name is not there. Does this mean you supported us behind the scene (usually happens, Pak supports India behind the scenes on important issues)


lol.. Pak is not a member of NSG yet to oppose or allow someone in NSG..

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## Guynextdoor2

New World said:


> lol.. Pak is not a member of NSG yet to oppose or allow someone in NSG..



I said you won't make a big noise about it. I didn't say you will 'oppose it' formally inside the NSG.

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## Mirza Jatt

Its ok... one more round.... we've played and suffered this kind of game before with MTCR, NSG waiver, GSLV, etc. Failure hasn't stopped us from trying.

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## Guynextdoor2

Mirza Jatt said:


> Its ok... one more round.... we've played and suffered this kind of game before with MTCR, NSG waiver, GSLV, etc. Failure hasn't stopped us from trying.



They really put in a superb effort this time don't you think? WHile I'm all for patience would be swesome for all the people in the MEA if they pull it through in this round. 'crowning' of their brilliant and consistent work. What an AWESOME effort of diplomacy

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## Johny D

Is there any solid source if the special session scheduled for India's induction into NSG took place and the group rejected India's candidature? And who all vetoed it? I see Brazil in the list but not China...!!


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## [Bregs]

*India bags all but China’s vote, decision on NSG bid likely on Friday*

China’s great wall appeared to be crumbling before Indian diplomacy on Thursday. Beijing was left isolated as every other government of the 48-member Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) spoke at the opening of the Seoul plenary in favour of accepting India into the elite international nuclear technology club.

At the end of the first tense session of the two-day meeting, China found itself isolated over its call for a criteria-based membership that would allow Pakistan to also join the NSG, official sources told Hindustan Times.

China has been trying to block India’s membership by saying entry into the NSG should be limited to countries that have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), a global nuclear arms control pact. India and China’s “all-weather ally”, Pakistan, which too is seeking membership of the NSG, have not signed the NPT.

As the NSG works by consensus, China has the ability to veto India’s entry.

Even as the Seoul meeting was taking place, on the other side of Asia in Uzbekistan, Prime Minister Narendra Modi was making a direct appeal to Chinese President Xi Jinping to support India’s entry to the NSG, saying China should make a “fair and objective” assessment of India’s candidature. Modi’s message was described as “very direct.”

*At the Seoul meeting, Japan led the way by first raising India’s membership at the NSG meeting. It was seconded by Argentina which presented a report praising India’s nuclear nonproliferation record.*

China found itself left high and dry as, one by one, more than 30 NSG members declared their support for India’s joining the group. *Contrary to initial reports, Brazil and South Africa were strong backers of India’s membership.*

*Austria, Ireland, Switzerland and a few others said they supported Indian membership but wanted to know how the induction process would take place.* 

Beijing used a procedural block to hold up the meeting for five hours in the morning. It conceded after an additional clause, separate from the one about India, that the NSG should consider the “political, technical and legal issues” regarding non-NPT members was added. This is seen as a possible fig-leaf for Beijing to take back to Islamabad.
The representatives, after another post-dinner round, broke for the night and contacted their respective governments for further instructions. The formal plenary begins on Friday.
In Tashkent, during his 45-minute meeting with Xi, Modi said China should “join and contribute” to the emerging consensus among NSG members on India’s candidature, according to the external affairs ministry.
Sources said Modi spoke about how India’s entry into the NSG will strengthen the global non-proliferation regime. His meeting with Xi was his first engagement in Tashkent.

There was no official word on the response from Xi, who assured Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain shortly before the meeting with Modi that China will adopt a “criteria-based approach” for NSG membership that will support Islamabad’s application.

Continued Chinese opposition to India’s membership in the NSG could threaten bilateral relations between the two Asian giants, especially in fora like BRICS, the Russia-India-China triangle and even the climate change bloc BASIC.

But officially Beijing has sought to de-link its position on NSG membership from its ties with India.

“We believe that with regard to the admission of new members a decision shall be made with through discussion within the group,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said ahead of Modi’s meeting with Xi.

“We do not believe that it (Beijing’s position on admitting new members to the NSG) is an issue concerning the bilateral relationship between China and India.”

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html

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## jaydee

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Strangely Pakistan's name is not there. Does this mean you supported us behind the scene (usually happens, Pak supports India behind the scenes on important issues)


Pakistan isn't a member state of NSG to support India.


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## Sipahi

Chalo acha ho gya ye tou

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## Johny D

[Bregs] said:


> *India bags all but China’s vote, decision on NSG bid likely on Friday*
> 
> China’s great wall appeared to be crumbling before Indian diplomacy on Thursday. Beijing was left isolated as every other government of the 48-member Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) spoke at the opening of the Seoul plenary in favour of accepting India into the elite international nuclear technology club.
> 
> At the end of the first tense session of the two-day meeting, China found itself isolated over its call for a criteria-based membership that would allow Pakistan to also join the NSG, official sources told Hindustan Times.
> 
> China has been trying to block India’s membership by saying entry into the NSG should be limited to countries that have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), a global nuclear arms control pact. India and China’s “all-weather ally”, Pakistan, which too is seeking membership of the NSG, have not signed the NPT.
> 
> As the NSG works by consensus, China has the ability to veto India’s entry.
> 
> Even as the Seoul meeting was taking place, on the other side of Asia in Uzbekistan, Prime Minister Narendra Modi was making a direct appeal to Chinese President Xi Jinping to support India’s entry to the NSG, saying China should make a “fair and objective” assessment of India’s candidature. Modi’s message was described as “very direct.”
> 
> *At the Seoul meeting, Japan led the way by first raising India’s membership at the NSG meeting. It was seconded by Argentina which presented a report praising India’s nuclear nonproliferation record.*
> 
> China found itself left high and dry as, one by one, more than 30 NSG members declared their support for India’s joining the group. *Contrary to initial reports, Brazil and South Africa were strong backers of India’s membership.*
> 
> *Austria, Ireland, Switzerland and a few others said they supported Indian membership but wanted to know how the induction process would take place.*
> 
> Beijing used a procedural block to hold up the meeting for five hours in the morning. It conceded after an additional clause, separate from the one about India, that the NSG should consider the “political, technical and legal issues” regarding non-NPT members was added. This is seen as a possible fig-leaf for Beijing to take back to Islamabad.
> The representatives, after another post-dinner round, broke for the night and contacted their respective governments for further instructions. The formal plenary begins on Friday.
> In Tashkent, during his 45-minute meeting with Xi, Modi said China should “join and contribute” to the emerging consensus among NSG members on India’s candidature, according to the external affairs ministry.
> Sources said Modi spoke about how India’s entry into the NSG will strengthen the global non-proliferation regime. His meeting with Xi was his first engagement in Tashkent.
> 
> There was no official word on the response from Xi, who assured Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain shortly before the meeting with Modi that China will adopt a “criteria-based approach” for NSG membership that will support Islamabad’s application.
> 
> Continued Chinese opposition to India’s membership in the NSG could threaten bilateral relations between the two Asian giants, especially in fora like BRICS, the Russia-India-China triangle and even the climate change bloc BASIC.
> 
> But officially Beijing has sought to de-link its position on NSG membership from its ties with India.
> 
> “We believe that with regard to the admission of new members a decision shall be made with through discussion within the group,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said ahead of Modi’s meeting with Xi.
> 
> “We do not believe that it (Beijing’s position on admitting new members to the NSG) is an issue concerning the bilateral relationship between China and India.”
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html


thats really a good news as expected...I was wondering when I read Brazil opposing India in the original post from OP....lets keep the fingures crossed...we have already achieved one hidden goal of isolating china..this will help is in UNSC...China, Pakistan, North Korea...what an alliance ..

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## Grevion

[Bregs] said:


> “We do not believe that it (Beijing’s position on admitting new members to the NSG) is an issue concerning the bilateral relationship between China and India.”
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html


No matter what they say it will effect the relationship between India and China. First the Azhar Masood issue and now this if it happens will surely be a dent in the Indo-China partnership.
And then they should not complain about the Indian support to the anti-China blocks in the world.

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## SR-91

Imran Khan said:


>




Sir ji,

Eak din beta BAAP bun Jayega.
Aaj Nahi to Kal.
Cheers.


You should learn to change with changing times.

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## I M Sikander

SR-91 said:


> Sir ji,
> 
> Eak din beta BAAP bun Jayega.
> Aaj Nahi to Kal.
> Cheers.
> 
> You should learn to change with changing times.


Chest thumping before achieving goal is useless.

So better avoid boll bachaan


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## I M Sikander

As I said before , it will be a big No both for India and Pakistan.


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## [Bregs]

JD_In said:


> thats really a good news as expected...I was wondering when I read Brazil opposing India in the original post from OP....lets keep the fingures crossed...we have already achieved one hidden goal of isolating china..this will help is in UNSC...China, Pakistan, North Korea...what an alliance ..



if china alone is dissenting member in opposing india's entry then this is a big moral victory for india

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## war&peace

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Strangely Pakistan's name is not there. Does this mean you supported us behind the scene (usually happens, Pak supports India behind the scenes on important issues)


Hmmm that would be weird. Though at some point both countries will support each other but in current lock up of horns, it seems far fetched possibility.


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## Usman Siddiaue

better luck next time


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## shah1398

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Strangely Pakistan's name is not there. Does this mean you supported us behind the scene (usually happens, Pak supports India behind the scenes on important issues)



Ummm.Being a non-NSG member do we have any say in NSG? And we do support India on every sane issue everywhere on face but sadly response from India is always dismal.


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## I M Sikander

Not just China but 5 countries Brazil, Austria, new Zealand, turkey and Ireland opposed India's case


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## shah1398

So I guess its *Moka Moka* for both Pakistan and India this time...

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## Johny D

[Bregs] said:


> if china alone is dissenting member in opposing india's entry then this is a big moral victory for india


true...and it seems US and India have planned this very meticulously in order to get India into extended UNSC and changing the rules of UNSC..specially the veto power...Americans designed it and they realized the fault in it so they want to change it..they are the OEM...they are using India as the base case for it, nothing bad for india...! .and what is happening this days like US India Nuke Deal, MTCR , NSG ..these are just the rehearsal and china is literally falling into a trap..... ...more china oppose India, more it will be seen as anti India (biased) despite both having cordial trade relations..Lets see how long china can do this on behalf of its no worth ally...

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## coffee_cup

[Bregs] said:


> if china alone is dissenting member in opposing india's entry then this is a big moral victory for india



Why it looks strange to you Bregs? This is what allies do, i.e. protect each other's interests. There is nothing like "moral" or "immoral" victory when it comes to diplomacy.

Havent we seen USA being the only country vetoing countless resolutions on Israel where almost the whole world stands on the other side?


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## [Bregs]

coffee_cup said:


> Why it looks strange to you Bregs? This is what allies do, i.e. protect each other's interests. There is nothing like "moral" or "immoral" victory when it comes to diplomacy.
> 
> Havent we seen USA being the only country vetoing countless resolutions on Israel where almost the whole world stands on the other side?



well dear since relations between china and india are stable and both being founding members of BRICS, and having trade ties at 90b$ its bound to be beneficial for india in many ways as in fusture china will have to give up but at what price it would be decided between india n china. china will never like to be seen as lone dissenting voice and this will be dipolmatic loss for them too along with bilateral loss too with india



JD_In said:


> true...and it seems US and India have planned this very meticulously in order to get India into extended UNSC and changing the rules of UNSC..specially the veto power...Americans designed it and they realized the fault in it so they want to change it..they are the OEM...they are using India as the base case for it, nothing bad for india...! .and what is happening this days like US India Nuke Deal, MTCR , NSG ..these are just the rehearsal and china is literally falling into a trap..... ...more china oppose India, more it will be seen as anti India (biased) despite both having cordial trade relations..Lets see how long china can do this on behalf of its no worth ally...




if other members like ireland, turkey, NZ, and brazil do not go with china then its diplomatic defeat for china too. wait till friday evening looks like china will be loner in opposing indian entry


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## I M Sikander

JD_In said:


> true...and it seems US and India have planned this very meticulously in order to get India into extended UNSC and changing the rules of UNSC..specially the veto power...Americans designed it and they realized the fault in it so they want to change it..they are the OEM...they are using India as the base case for it, nothing bad for india...! .and what is happening this days like US India Nuke Deal, MTCR , NSG ..these are just the rehearsal and china is literally falling into a trap..... ...more china oppose India, more it will be seen as anti India (biased) despite both having cordial trade relations..Lets see how long china can do this on behalf of its no worth ally...


China isn't alone guys, 5 countries opposed Indian case.

That include Austria, Brazil, Ireland, turkey and new Zealand.
Pakistan and china played their cards very well and Indian dreams are licking the dust.

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## dray

Guynextdoor2 said:


> They really put in a superb effort this time don't you think? WHile I'm all for patience would be swesome for all the people in the MEA if they pull it through in this round. 'crowning' of their brilliant and consistent work. What an AWESOME effort of diplomacy



Now don't play safe, we will get it even if not in this round, and you know who is leading the campaign.

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## Guynextdoor2

shah1398 said:


> Ummm.Being a non-NSG member do we have any say in NSG? And we do support India on every sane issue everywhere on face but sadly response from India is always dismal.



Says who? Behind the scenes there is a lot that Pak is getting. Plus, India having world prominence has been for the general good for Pakistan. All that you are obsessed with is 'UNSC, MTCR, NSG', guess what the world has things that can screw you up far worse that these fancy things can do. On Climate Change, Intellectual Property, WTO and fair trade, pharma- all of these Pak showed ZERO interest. It was India that led the developing nations and put enormous resistance to corporate inerests that would have eaten us up. 

You think 'china opposing India' is ultimate politics? You have no freaking idea what then US trade representative Robert Zoellick, later to become World Bank President was doing to screw the developing world. In all these instances Pak was was content watching from the sidelines while India was doing all the fist fighting. 

'Leadership' is not waking up one day to one pet idea. You need to have played that role in the real sense of the word on all issues that are affecting people. That's why we get support from so many countries. Next time Pak Fauj /'triple one brigade' for coup supporters talk about how 'america and other countries are popping up India' ask them what have they ever done on key issues except wake up when NSG/ MTCR etc. come up.

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## I M Sikander

[Bregs] said:


> if china alone is dissenting member in opposing india's entry then this is a big moral victory for india


There isn't any such thing as moral victory in diplomacy.
By the way 5 countries opposed India's case. So take a long breathe and relax .


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## Kinetic

CHD said:


> Bur but but china is only one opposing and look what how china becomes isolated after it opposes supa pawa.




Shupa pawa china was indeed isolated. We are not a signatory of NPT still we made a string pitch. Most of the countries were in our side except few like China. This states who has more diplomatic clout.  

*Now you tried to came to NSG just because India is trying.  And no one is supporting you. Still you are trying because India is trying. *

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## [Bregs]

*India bags all but China’s vote, decision on NSG bid likely on Friday*

China’s great wall appeared to be crumbling before Indian diplomacy on Thursday. Beijing was left isolated as every other government of the 48-member Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) spoke at the opening of the Seoul plenary in favour of accepting India into the elite international nuclear technology club.

At the end of the first tense session of the two-day meeting, China found itself isolated over its call for a criteria-based membership that would allow Pakistan to also join the NSG, official sources told Hindustan Times.

China has been trying to block India’s membership by saying entry into the NSG should be limited to countries that have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), a global nuclear arms control pact. India and China’s “all-weather ally”, Pakistan, which too is seeking membership of the NSG, have not signed the NPT.

As the NSG works by consensus, China has the ability to veto India’s entry.

Even as the Seoul meeting was taking place, on the other side of Asia in Uzbekistan, Prime Minister Narendra Modi was making a direct appeal to Chinese President Xi Jinping to support India’s entry to the NSG, saying China should make a “fair and objective” assessment of India’s candidature. Modi’s message was described as “very direct.”

At the Seoul meeting, Japan led the way by first raising India’s membership at the NSG meeting. It was seconded by Argentina which presented a report praising India’s nuclear nonproliferation record.

*China found itself left high and dry as, one by one, more than 30 NSG members declared their support for India’s joining the group. Contrary to initial reports, Brazil and South Africa were strong backers of India’s membership.*

*Austria, Ireland, Switzerland and a few others said they supported Indian membership but wanted to know how the induction process would take place. *

Beijing used a procedural block to hold up the meeting for five hours in the morning. It conceded after an additional clause, separate from the one about India, that the NSG should consider the “political, technical and legal issues” regarding non-NPT members was added. This is seen as a possible fig-leaf for Beijing to take back to Islamabad.

The representatives, after another post-dinner round, broke for the night and contacted their respective governments for further instructions. The formal plenary begins on Friday.
In Tashkent, during his 45-minute meeting with Xi, Modi said China should “join and contribute” to the emerging consensus among NSG members on India’s candidature, according to the external affairs ministry.

Sources said Modi spoke about how India’s entry into the NSG will strengthen the global non-proliferation regime. His meeting with Xi was his first engagement in Tashkent.

There was no official word on the response from Xi, who assured Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain shortly before the meeting with Modi that China will adopt a “criteria-based approach” for NSG membership that will support Islamabad’s application.

Continued Chinese opposition to India’s membership in the NSG could threaten bilateral relations between the two Asian giants, especially in fora like BRICS, the Russia-India-China triangle and even the climate change bloc BASIC.

But officially Beijing has sought to de-link its position on NSG membership from its ties with India.

“We believe that with regard to the admission of new members a decision shall be made with through discussion within the group,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said ahead of Modi’s meeting with Xi.

“We do not believe that it (Beijing’s position on admitting new members to the NSG) is an issue concerning the bilateral relationship between China and India.”

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html

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## Sage

Sharpshooter12 said:


> Yes we have a secret crush on you guys, or perhaps it is because Pakistan is not a member of NSG.


----------



## coffee_cup

[Bregs] said:


> well dear since relations between china and india are stable and both being founding members of BRICS, and having trade ties at 90b$ its bound to be beneficial for india in many ways as in fusture china will have to give up but at what price it would be decided between india n china
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if other members like ireland, turkey, NZ, and brazil do not go with china then its diplomatic defeat for china too



Bro, Chinese people are the smartest people when it comes to diplomacy and securing own interests. Do you know the volume of trade between China and USA? But does that stop China from taking sides with Russia and often standing against USA?

Nothing will happen to the trade between China and India, even if China vetoes 10 million times. Because Indians need cheap stuff (and make huge profits locally) and China can provide that. 

There is absolutely no diplomatic defeat for China, because at the end it is India who is not the member. 

So think again who is at the losing end. And please do not come up with the "moral victory" stuff, because diplomacy does not give a flying rat's a$$ about that.

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## Johny D

Ranasikander said:


> China isn't alone guys, 5 countries opposed Indian case.
> 
> That include Austria, Brazil, Ireland, turkey and new Zealand.
> Pakistan and china played their cards very well and Indian dreams are licking the dust.



dude..read the link below..and FYI..all others except china are just nominal opposers..planted by the US...the moment US orders them to support India, they will change their stand..this is just to isolate china and making it wrong in front of global audience...u cant understand the wider politics here..

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html

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## [Bregs]

Ranasikander said:


> There isn't any such thing as moral victory in diplomacy.
> By the way 5 countries opposed India's case. So take a long breathe and relax .



wait till friday evening you will see china alone dissenting



coffee_cup said:


> Bro, Chinese people are the smartest people when it comes to diplomacy and securing own interests. Do you know the volume of trade between China and USA? But does that stop China from taking sides with Russia and often standing against USA?
> 
> Nothing will happen to the trade between China and India, even if China vetoes 10 million times. Because Indians need cheap stuff (and make huge profits locally) and China can provide that.
> 
> There is absolutely no diplomatic defeat for China, because at the end it is India who is not the member.
> 
> So think again who is at the losing end. And please do not come up with the "moral victory" stuff, because diplomacy does not give a flying rat's a$$ about that.




tomorrow evening i.e by friday we will see china is alone dissenter

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## I M Sikander

JD_In said:


> dude..read the link below..and FYI..all others except china are just nominal opposers..planted by the US...the moment US orders them to support India, they will change their stand..this is just to isolate china and making it wrong in front of global audience...u cant understand the wider politics here..
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html


Keep these theories to entertain yourself. The fact of the matter is indias request for membership couldn't materialize.
That's all folks and what matters.


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## shah1398

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Says who? Behind the scenes there is a lot that Pak is getting. Plus, India having world prominence has been for the general good for Pakistan. All that you are obsessed with is 'UNSC, MTCR, NSG', guess what the world has things that can screw you up far worse that these fancy things can do. On Climate Change, Intellectual Property, WTO and fair trade, pharma- all of these Pak showed ZERO interest. It was India that led the developing nations and put enormous resistance to corporate inerests that would have eaten us up.
> 
> You think 'china opposing India' is ultimate politics? You have no freaking idea what then US trade representative Robert Zoellick, later to become World Bank President was doing to screw the developing world. In all these instances Pak was was content watching from the sidelines while India was doing all the fist fighting.
> 
> 'Leadership' is not waking up one day to one pet idea. You need to have played that role in the real sense of the word on all issues that are affecting people. That's why we get support from so many countries. Next time Pak Fauj /'triple one brigade' for coup supporters talk about how 'america and other countries are popping up India' ask them what have they ever done on key issues except wake up when NSG/ MTCR etc. come up.



We being a small country would never want confrontation with a big country like India. We had only opposed India where it tries to be Big Daddy of the region. Whenever we had taken evasive measures against India were only because India had back stabbed us. Just take recent example of F-16 issue. I mean they were just 8 birds and U got so scared and uneasy with it that used millions of $$$ in lobbying to stall the issue. Typical example of a Mighty country with sparrow heart.


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## I M Sikander

[Bregs] said:


> wait till friday evening you will see china alone dissenting
> 
> tomorrow evening i.e by friday we will see china is alone dissenter


Come on dude, don't be so sentimental.
Hota hai dear, hota hai. 
As I said, take a long breathe and just chill.
Every day is not Sunday.


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## coffee_cup

[Bregs] said:


> tomorrow evening i.e by friday we will see china is alone dissenter



You are right. We should wait and see till the sessions officially ends. 

Personally I do hope that India does not become a member, because by doing that the Western world will lose all kind of "moral" leverage to lecture Pakistan or any other country for that matter to sign those NPT treaties...


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## I M Sikander

For all my fellow indian kids, who are crying.


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## [Bregs]

coffee_cup said:


> You are right. We should wait and see till the sessions officially ends.
> 
> Personally I do hope that India does not become a member, because by doing that the Western world will lose all kind of "moral" leverage to lecture Pakistan or any other country for that matter to sign those NPT treaties...



india has never signed it self NPT why it will lecture pakistan. 2ndly india has never had objection to pak entry into NSG. so who knows what future holds for these 2 countries bilaterally as far as NSG entry is concerned


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## Guynextdoor2

shah1398 said:


> We being a small country would never want confrontation with a big country like India. We had only opposed India where it tries to be Big Daddy of the region. Whenever we had taken evasive measures against India were only because India had back stabbed us. Just take recent example of F-16 issue. I mean they were just 8 birds and U got so scared and uneasy with it that used millions of $$$ in lobbying to stall the issue. Typical example of a Mighty country with sparrow heart.



We are a 'smaaaaaalllll' country that didn't bother with other issues while other smaaalllll countries with equal populations like Brazil fought massively on all of these things. Several African countries under enormous pressure also stood out on this and preferred to suffer....but we're smaaaaaallllll country. Fact is the influence of your military in politics is always clear, 'UNSC, NSG, CTBT'...baki jaye ghaas charade humor kya?



Ranasikander said:


> View attachment 312993
> 
> For all my fellow indian kids, who are crying.



@shah1398 see.....hoooow much of leadership material we can see.

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## I M Sikander

[Bregs] said:


> india has never signed it self NPT why it will lecture pakistan. 2ndly india has never had objection to pak entry into NSG. so who knows what future holds for these 2 countries bilaterally as far as NSG entry is concerned


Same for Pakistan, Pakistan wanted nondiscriminating membership policy for all new applicants.
Pick and chose shouldn't be the case.


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## shah1398

Guynextdoor2 said:


> We are a 'smaaaaaalllll' country that didn't bother with other issues while other smaaalllll countries with equal populations like Brazil fought massively on all of these things. African countries under enormous pressure also stood out on this and preferred to suffer....but we're smaaaaaallllll country. Fact is the influence of your military in politics is always clear, 'UNSC, NSG, CTBT'...baki jaye ghaas charade humor kya?


We can mutually resolve all issues when we both become PMs of our respective countries .



Guynextdoor2 said:


> @shah1398 see.....hoooow much of leadership material we can see.



Its a two way process from both side on respective occasions. I would not blame any single entity here.
Peace.

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## danger007

Ranasikander said:


> China isn't alone guys, 5 countries opposed Indian case.
> 
> That include Austria, Brazil, Ireland, turkey and new Zealand.
> Pakistan and china played their cards very well and Indian dreams are licking the dust.




Why you are celebrating isn't it too early.. these type take lot time... Have patience..

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## I M Sikander

danger007 said:


> Why you are celebrating isn't it too early.. these type take lot time... Have patience..


I celebrate every little joy.


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## CHD

Kinetic said:


> Shupa pawa china was indeed isolated. We are not a signatory of NPT still we made a string pitch. Most of the countries were in our side except few like China. This states who has more diplomatic clout.
> 
> *Now you tried to came to NSG just because India is trying.  And no one is supporting you. Still you are trying because India is trying. *





[Bregs] said:


> *India bags all but China’s vote, decision on NSG bid likely on Friday*
> 
> China’s great wall appeared to be crumbling before Indian diplomacy on Thursday. Beijing was left isolated as every other government of the 48-member Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) spoke at the opening of the Seoul plenary in favour of accepting India into the elite international nuclear technology club.
> 
> At the end of the first tense session of the two-day meeting, China found itself isolated over its call for a criteria-based membership that would allow Pakistan to also join the NSG, official sources told Hindustan Times.
> 
> China has been trying to block India’s membership by saying entry into the NSG should be limited to countries that have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), a global nuclear arms control pact. India and China’s “all-weather ally”, Pakistan, which too is seeking membership of the NSG, have not signed the NPT.
> 
> As the NSG works by consensus, China has the ability to veto India’s entry.
> 
> Even as the Seoul meeting was taking place, on the other side of Asia in Uzbekistan, Prime Minister Narendra Modi was making a direct appeal to Chinese President Xi Jinping to support India’s entry to the NSG, saying China should make a “fair and objective” assessment of India’s candidature. Modi’s message was described as “very direct.”
> 
> At the Seoul meeting, Japan led the way by first raising India’s membership at the NSG meeting. It was seconded by Argentina which presented a report praising India’s nuclear nonproliferation record.
> 
> *China found itself left high and dry as, one by one, more than 30 NSG members declared their support for India’s joining the group. Contrary to initial reports, Brazil and South Africa were strong backers of India’s membership.*
> 
> *Austria, Ireland, Switzerland and a few others said they supported Indian membership but wanted to know how the induction process would take place. *
> 
> Beijing used a procedural block to hold up the meeting for five hours in the morning. It conceded after an additional clause, separate from the one about India, that the NSG should consider the “political, technical and legal issues” regarding non-NPT members was added. This is seen as a possible fig-leaf for Beijing to take back to Islamabad.
> 
> The representatives, after another post-dinner round, broke for the night and contacted their respective governments for further instructions. The formal plenary begins on Friday.
> In Tashkent, during his 45-minute meeting with Xi, Modi said China should “join and contribute” to the emerging consensus among NSG members on India’s candidature, according to the external affairs ministry.
> 
> Sources said Modi spoke about how India’s entry into the NSG will strengthen the global non-proliferation regime. His meeting with Xi was his first engagement in Tashkent.
> 
> There was no official word on the response from Xi, who assured Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain shortly before the meeting with Modi that China will adopt a “criteria-based approach” for NSG membership that will support Islamabad’s application.
> 
> Continued Chinese opposition to India’s membership in the NSG could threaten bilateral relations between the two Asian giants, especially in fora like BRICS, the Russia-India-China triangle and even the climate change bloc BASIC.
> 
> But officially Beijing has sought to de-link its position on NSG membership from its ties with India.
> 
> “We believe that with regard to the admission of new members a decision shall be made with through discussion within the group,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said ahead of Modi’s meeting with Xi.
> 
> “We do not believe that it (Beijing’s position on admitting new members to the NSG) is an issue concerning the bilateral relationship between China and India.”
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html


5-6 countries are opposing thats not just china

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Kinetic said:


> *Now you tried to came to NSG just because India is trying.  And no one is supporting you. Still you are trying because India is trying. *



Because we love you....Thats why.


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## Anees

And Where is Pak Standing ?? How many oppose or supported in 48 ???

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## Chinese-Dragon

[Bregs] said:


> china will never like to be seen as lone dissenting voice.



Umm... why not? 

Unlike you guys, we don't care what foreigners think, it has zero effect on our policies.

You know we fought against the entire United Nations during the Korean War (including the USA + 16 of her allies combined), then we went on to fight against the Soviet Union during the Sino-Soviet split. We were basically fighting against the entire world during the Cold War, now you think we are afraid of using veto power alone? 

If it serves our national interests to veto it, we'll do it in the blink of an eye. If India offers enough economic concessions though...

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## Devil Soul

*Deadlock At NSG Over India's Bid, PM Asks For China's Support: 10 Facts*
All India | Written by Nidhi Razdan | Updated: June 24, 2016 00:43 IST

Here are 10 developments in the story:

Top government sources have told NDTV that China remains the main opponent but Brazil, Austria and Ireland also raised questions on how a non-NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty) signatory can be admitted to the NSG, which controls access to nuclear technology.


Officials describe these as questions raised over "processes" but said China's opposition was belligerent. "It seems to have ended up as a broad inconclusive discussion. No clear cut conclusions can be reached at this stage," sources said.


China, say sources, spent the day trying to prevent the NSG from even discussing India's membership at all.


Brazil's objections will come as a setback to India since it is a key ally. Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar, who is in Seoul, met the Brazilian delegation earlier in the day.


Prime Minister Narendra Modi, in a 45-minute meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping on the sidelines of a multilateral summit in Tashkent, requested a "fair and objective assessment" of India's bid.


PM Modi said New Delhi's case should be judged on its own merits and that China should contribute to an emerging consensus in Seoul.


About 300 participants from 48 member countries are attending the meeting in Seoul.


China has been unrelenting in its opposition, harping on the need to have a criteria for non-NPT countries like India and clubbing India's case with that of Pakistan for which it is batting.


India wants to become a member of the NSG to get better access to low-cost, clean nuclear energy crucial to its economic growth.


The NSG works on unanimity and even one opposing vote can mean the rejection of India's membership.


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## Rajkumar

fk those fkers, 

*“Khudi ko kar buland itna ke har taqder se pehle

Khuda bande se khud pooche bata teri raza kya hai.” *

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## Kinetic

CHD said:


> 5-6 countries are opposing thats not just china




There is total 48 countries. According to you 5/6 are not supporting that means 42/43 countries are supporting and out of this 5/6 we will manage everyone except China. We know china will never support India as they are our enemy.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Because we love you....Thats why.




Its not love its called stupidity by Pakistani govt. You know that no one will support you still trying to get membership is not good for Pakistan's image. For the same reason we didnot tried earlier. Now we got the technology and business so countries are supporting us.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Let's see what Modi offers at the 11th hour. 

If Modi went directly to Xi Jinping then he must have made some serious offers.


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## SR-91

Ranasikander said:


> Chest thumping before achieving goal is useless.
> 
> So better avoid boll bachaan




There is a difference between "chest thumping", and "confidence" and If you can't see the clear writing on the wall, then I can't help you.


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## fsayed

@nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @Stephen Cohen @anant_s

@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @ranjeet

@GURU DUTT @HariPrasad
@DesiGuy1403 
http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Indias-NSG-bid-stops-at-China-wall/articleshow/52891969.cms
NEW DELHI: China remained the last major obstacle in the way of India's membership bid in the Nuclear Suppliers Group as 47 of 48 members supported New Delhi's application at the group's special plenary session in Seoul on Thursday.
The session debated until midnight but failed to come to a conclusion after hours of discussions, with China adamant in its opposition. Questions and doubts by other fence-sitting countries dissolved in the course of the evening, leaving China as the last man standing against India. Officials in Seoul said the meeting would restart on Friday. After Thursday's NSG meeting, delegations were asked to revert to their headquarters for fresh instructions.

China raised a procedural block early in the day, refusing to admit the India membership issue to be discussed in the meeting. This, diplomats in the room said, caused a delay of over five hours, as the members wrestled with an agenda item. Finally, it was decided to discuss a heavily worded agenda on "political, legal and technical issues of non-NPT countries' membership. The discussions began at 9pm and ended around midnight, but remained in a deadlock.
Superior sound to every seat in the house
Ad Bose
Indian officials will be lobbying hard with the members before the meeting begins on Friday morning. The US is also expected to be working the phones on India's behalf.
Earlier Thursday afternoon, PM Narendra Modi delivered a candid message to Chinese President Xi Jinping who he met for a bilateral on the sidelines of the SCO summit in Tashkent. Sources said Modi conveyed to Xi New Delhi's expectation that China would support India in the NSG, a position that suggests that continued opposition will impact ties.
The 45-minute Modi-Xi meeting was almost entirely devoted to the NSG issue and China's opposition. A readout of the meeting was given by official spokesperson Vikas Swarup who said, "PM Modi urged China to make a fair and objective assessment of India's application and judge it on its own merit. He said China should contribute to the emerging consensus in Seoul."
Until late Thursday evening however, Chinese diplomats in Seoul held on to their tough stand against India. Brazil and South Africa, two other members of BRICS, stood behind India, as did Russia. The consensus emerged through the evening's discussions, with countries like Ireland, Switzerland and Austria, even Brazil raising questions on process - but these whittled down to supporting India's candidature. Turkey stuck to its position of supporting India and Pakistan. However, Pakistan's NSG bid was not discussed at length, however the presence of the application was the reason for a lot of discussion on non-NPT countries.
China's continued obduracy raises serious questions in the Indian government about the value of organisations like BRICS, RIC or even BASIC, where India and China are believed to be working together. If China continues with its opposition, sources said there could be consequences for bilateral relations with Beijing, because it would be a direct refusal to an Indian head of the government.
The meeting in Seoul began with the outgoing Argentine chair Rafael Grossi presenting a positive report on India's commitments and compliance. South Korea, which took over the chairmanship of the nuclear cartel steered the discussion on India's membership, said sources.
China's stand might wreck India's chances this time if Beijing continues to hold out. But the fact that India has mounted such a huge diplomatic exercise will play to India's advantage going forward. All eyes now will be on the last minute role that the US and other big supporters of India play on Friday to help bring China around.
Meanwhile, Xi met Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain in Tashkent, where the two sides reaffirmed their strong bonds, describing themselves as "iron brothers". A Pakistan foreign ministry statement quoted Pak president as saying, "exception given for NSG membership could disturb strategic stability in South Asia

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## DesiGuy1403

I think this will be one of the defining moments of India -China relationships.
The moment we will analyse decades down the line and say this is the result of our current relationship status, whether positive or negative.

The thing that will worry China is the huge backlash already building in Indian public over China. It would be very easy for current govt to build on this and really make it tough for Chinese to do business in India.

Oh, Indian govt won't ban any Chinese goods or company but they will run a campaign where Indians would neither sell nor but Chinese products.

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## fsayed

DesiGuy1403 said:


> I think this will be one of the defining moments of India -China relationships.
> The moment we will analyse decades down the line and say this is the result of our current relationship status, whether positive or negative.
> 
> The thing that will worry China is the huge backlash already building in Indian public over China. It would be very easy for current govt to build on this and really make it tough for Chinese to do business in India.
> 
> Oh, Indian govt won't ban any Chinese goods or company but they will run a campaign where Indians would neither sell nor but Chinese products.


Good news is that india already isolated china at NSG india already got support of 47 out of 48 even turkey

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## iLION12345_1

What I don't get is why do Pakistanis and Indians whine so much , I'm not pointing out a singular country ( like Indians might start to whine I'm a Pakistani so I'm only pointing out India or it could go the other way around with me being called a traitor) but what heck is the matter with us , I know we've been and still are enemies but individually we talk like gentlemen and when we get a topic like this we fight like 3 years old who just won't stop , so please both sides stop this stupid immature fighting and wait , we could both be wrong for all we know .


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## imran169

Lol 47 out of 48?...Turkey, SA, NZ, Austria +1 or 2 countries also opposed Indian membership...Seems these countries reject US Pressure...!


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## fsayed

imran169 said:


> Lol 47 out of 48?...Turkey, SA, NZ, Austria +1 or 2 countries also opposed Indian membership...Seems these countries reject US Pressure...!


First read and then reply 

China remains the sole hurdle in India's bid to gain NSG membership
47 of NSG's 48 member nations now backing India
PM Modi has hinted, China's opposition can impact bilateral ties



imran169 said:


> Lol 47 out of 48?...Turkey, SA, NZ, Austria +1 or 2 countries also opposed Indian membership...Seems these countries reject US Pressure...!


Chinese diplomats in Seoul held on to their tough stand against India. Brazil and South Africa, two other members of BRICS, stood behind India, as did Russia. The consensus emerged through the evening's discussions, with countries like Ireland, Switzerland and Austria, even Brazil raising questions on process - but these whittled down to supporting India's candidature. Turkey stuck to its position of supporting India and Pakistan.


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## dadeechi

iLION12345_1 said:


> What I don't get is why do Pakistanis and Indians whine so much , I'm not pointing out a singular country ( like Indians might start to whine I'm a Pakistani so I'm only pointing out India or it could go the other way around with me being called a traitor) but what heck is the matter with us , I know we've been and still are enemies but individually we talk like gentlemen and when we get a topic like this we fight like 3 years old who just won't stop , so please both sides stop this stupid immature fighting and wait , we could both be wrong for all we know .



India and Pakistan tiff is in fact a side show. The tug of war is in fact between US & China.


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## Muhammad Omar

well the comment section was hilarious 

On Topic
what happened to other countries like Ireland New Zealand South Africa Turkey Brazil etc etc which were against India's entry into NSG??? 

so if 47 countries agrees and only 1 country isn't you won't get into NSG?? That's pretty Fu**** up..


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## iLION12345_1

dadeechi said:


> India and Pakistan tiff is in fact a side show. The tug of war is in fact between US & China.


That's debatable , but this is not the time for those kind of debates but atleast we don't see Chinese and Americans fighting like us Pakistanis and Indians .


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## Nilgiri

fsayed said:


> Good news is that india already isolated china at NSG india already got support of 47 out of 48 even turkey



Apparently lots of phone calls between Washington and Beijing are ongoing......and possibly add Paris, London and Moscow to that. Teaming up against the puffy buffoon....till it relents....like it did in 2008.

If its true that Turkey has come around to support India's bid, that is a big development indeed.

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## fsayed

Muhammad Omar said:


> well the comment section was hilarious
> 
> On Topic
> what happened to other countries like Ireland New Zealand South Africa Turkey Brazil etc etc which were against India's entry into NSG???
> 
> so if 47 countries agrees and only 1 country isn't you won't get into NSG?? That's pretty Fu**** up..



Modi already warn china of effect on bilateral relations

@Nilgiri

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Umm... why not?
> 
> Unlike you guys, we don't care what foreigners think, it has zero effect on our policies.
> 
> You know we fought against the entire United Nations during the Korean War (including the USA + 16 of her allies combined), then we went on to fight against the Soviet Union during the Sino-Soviet split. We were basically fighting against the entire world during the Cold War, now you think we are afraid of using veto power alone?
> 
> If it serves our national interests to veto it, we'll do it in the blink of an eye. If India offers enough economic concessions though...



So why wasnt China the lone-dissenting voice for the NSG waiver in 2008 and stop it mightily and independently in its tracks from proceeding to completion?

Was Hu-JinTao really that much of a weakling?

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## Muhammad Omar

fsayed said:


> Modi already warn china of effect on bilateral relations
> 
> @Nilgiri



Like Boycotting Chinese products and trade?? hmm Never gonna happen


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## fsayed

Muhammad Omar said:


> Like Boycotting Chinese products and trade?? hmm Never gonna happen


Y not yes 100%

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## Nilgiri

fsayed said:


> Modi already warn china of effect on bilateral relations
> 
> @Nilgiri



Thanks for the tag. Yah he did.



Muhammad Omar said:


> Like Boycotting Chinese products and trade??



There may be more to it than that. Remember how India finally earlier agreed not to host the Uighur seperatist guy? I'm sure there was diplo-cred trading going on that we didnt know about behind the scenes.

But yeah trade/investment/general relations...slice of N-pie that India has offered to China under the table etc etc.

I mean things like this:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms

will basically stop in their tracks

Its win-win for India as far as I see it whatever happens.

We already got the main important thing (NSG waiver). What situation China wants on top of that to exist is in its hands....India can manage quite well with either choice.

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## Kinetic

Muhammad Omar said:


> well the comment section was hilarious
> 
> On Topic
> what happened to other countries like Ireland New Zealand South Africa Turkey Brazil etc etc which were against India's entry into NSG???
> 
> so if 47 countries agrees and only 1 country isn't you won't get into NSG?? That's pretty Fu**** up..




Yeah fckd up china totally. They are totally isolated. SHAME. everyone is supporting India.  We will soon become part of NSG else we will find another way.

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## Kinetic

*1:47 this is shame for China, they did not find anybody on their side!*

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## Chinese-Dragon

Nilgiri said:


> So why wasnt China the lone-dissenting voice for the NSG waiver in 2008 and stop it mightily and independently in its tracks from proceeding to completion?
> 
> Was Hu-JinTao really that much of a weakling?



Because we got something in return, the right to build multiple nuclear reactors in Pakistan without NSG approval. 

And India didn't get an NSG seat either. So basically win-win.

And sure, Hu Jintao was a lot more reserved than Xi Jinping.

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Because we got something in return, the right to build multiple nuclear reactors in Pakistan without NSG approval.



You didn't "get" that from agreeing a waiver for India. China decided that on its own later....I mean why hasn't China been up there pushing for a waiver for Pakistan from the NSG? Exactly the reason mentioned earlier: it would prefer not to be the lone voice sounding stupid

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## Tamilnadu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Umm... why not?
> 
> Unlike you guys, we don't care what foreigners think, it has zero effect on our policies.
> 
> 
> If it serves our national interests to veto it, we'll do it in the blink of an eye. If India offers enough economic concessions though...


Ofc CCP is not answerable to anyone in China,especially its people.so yeah it had zero effect on your policies.

The only concession you will get after India getting support of all the other members is to let China back out of its stand gracefully and not to be seen as gave in under the pressure of isolation,or become alone.

End of the day what was china trying to do or trying to stop us from getting something, we already get what we can get by becoming a the member of NSG.
I feel all this stand by Chian was for nothing.

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## Nilgiri

It might hurt some to know that China gave fuel to India's tarapur reactor in the mid 90s:

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-opinion/remember-lessons-from-tarapur/article3039230.ece



> the U.S. allowed France to supply fuel to India. Subsequently, the USSR (now Russia) and even China supplied fuel for Tarapur.



Dealing with the Chinese today is basically a question of what they want unofficially. There use of Pakistan equality with India is really just a cover....they have betrayed Pakistan under the table quite a few times already when the price is right (lack of pursuing a waiver for Pakistan, supplying fuel to Tarapur, giving NSG waiver to India).

In fact their lack of pursuing a waiver for Pakistan is especially interesting. It seems they want to a) prevent being the lone supporter of such a waiver b) keep Pakistan a captive market for Chinese nuclear industry (since a waiver would open up the world nuclear market to Pakistan...like it has done for India.)

Similarly China feels that the NSG is where the buck stops, so they can put a fly in the ointment for India as far as competition that India can provide in supplying nuclear technology at cost-effective pricepoints that China currently monopolizes within the NSG-IAEA framework.

Problem for them is that this window wont last too long given the rumours already going around of creating an entirely new grouping of the 47 other members of the NSG + India (and instead of China)....not to mention India can also keep making specific bilateral arrangements (esp if it has the backing of the other main NSG members) in the meantime.

China can only hope to get the best deal it can by letting India into the NSG the way I see it, since they can at least get something from India in return. But hey, if they want to continue on their current track for whatever "face-saving reason"....Napoleon said it best....do not stop your enemy when he is making a mistake

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## Stealth

oo yaar NSG NSG... koi sharam hey ? divert material for peaceful energy generation to nuclear test in 1974 written officially by your own govt .. and you want NSG membership... leave Pakistan koi begerati koi sharam haya hey ?


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## sparten

Nilgiri said:


> So why wasnt China the lone-dissenting voice for the NSG waiver in 2008 and stop it mightily and independently in its tracks from proceeding to completion?
> 
> Was Hu-JinTao really that much of a weakling?


Per Andrew Small.


> Nearly eight years ago, after being left in a minority of one, China backed down under intense pressure from the United States and acquiesced to the exemption for India in the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group (NSG). With India’s membership up for consideration this week at the NSG’s plenary meeting in Seoul, an outright repeat of these events appears unlikely. In contrast to 2008, when Beijing hid behind other opponents until each and every one of them had been peeled off, this time China has made its position clear. Unless a deal is done in the coming days, most observers are betting that China will stick to its guns. What has changed? And how far is Beijing’s opposition likely to go?
> 
> On Monday, China responded to the Indian external affairs minister’s statement that Beijing was not opposed to Indian membership. “The inclusion of non-NPT members has never been a topic on the agenda of NSG meetings. In Seoul this year, there is no such topic,” the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson said. “We have stressed that the NSG is still divided about non-NPT countries entry into the NSG and under the current circumstances we hope that NSG will make thorough discussions to make a decision based on consultation.”
> 
> China’s stance certainly cannot be attributed to any profound attachment to the NSG’s rules. The nuclear plants that China is building in Pakistan may help to address that country’s dire energy situation but no other member of the NSG accepts the claim by Chinese officials that each and every new reactor was “grandfathered” into China’s original membership agreement.
> 
> While this violation has not been deemed sufficient to warrant blowing the group up, it has been an ongoing demonstration that China sees the institution through a largely political prism. And Beijing’s position on Indian membership is undoubtedly politically hyphenated: boiled down to its essentials, China is willing to back India’s entry if there is a clear route for Pakistan to join the club too. Beijing did belatedly attempt a similar manoeuvre during the late stages of the negotiations in 2008 but the proposal that Pakistan might be granted a matching exemption to India’s attracted more incredulity than support from other NSG members.
> 
> This time, Chinese attempts to push for a conditions-based process that would keep the door open to Pakistan’s future entry elicit greater sympathy. Other countries also have their reservations about an _ad hominem_ approach to membership for non-NPT states. Nonetheless, with the largely successful diplomatic push by the Indian government and its supporters reaching the final stages, it is possible that China will be left as the only hold-out once again.
> 
> Under Hu Jintao, that would likely have proved sufficient. China was reluctant to be diplomatically isolated, virtually always seeking some degree of political cover from others. Beijing was wary about going toe-to-toe with Washington on issues deemed to be top-tier strategic priorities, which the NSG waiver certainly was. It had a counter-move in its back pocket too, in the shape of its deal with Pakistan on a new phase of Chashma reactors, an NSG exemption by fiat, from which only its own nuclear industry would benefit. And Beijing was wary of doing too much damage to its bilateral relationship with India for the sake of a Pakistan that was still reeling from the A.Q. Khan proliferation scandal, one in which China was itself implicated – the bomb designs that showed up in Libya, to take just one example, being of Chinese origin. Very few considerations suggested that this was a propitious moment to make a stand, though even then it was a close, last-minute call.
> 
> This time, virtually none of these conditions are the same.
> 
> President Xi Jinping is a more forceful leader than his predecessor, more comfortable with playing great power politics and less anxious about the repercussions of throwing China’s weight around. The United States has less capacity to press China to change its position, and the dynamics between Washington and Beijing are far more competitive than they were in 2008. U.S. officials, however hard they push, will not be able to repeat the same trick. There is also no obvious back-up plan if China agrees to Indian membership without concomitant assurances about Pakistan’s future position, which, given the requirement for unanimous decision-making at the NSG, could permanently entrench a framework that disadvantages its closest partner. And this time, there is more at stake for China in being seen to stick up for the interests of its Pakistani friends.
> 
> China is not about to make a fundamental break with its non-alignment policies but in a context where Beijing is in the process of establishing its first overseas military facilities, and engaging in an intensifying strategic contest with the United States, credibility with friends and quasi-allies matters more than it did. Pakistan has been the surprising pace-setter in Xi Jinping’s “Belt and Road” initiative, and over the last year Chinese intellectuals have taken to describing the country as China’s “one real ally”, with the relationship a “model to follow”. For all the supposed constancy of their “all-weather friendship”, this was not the tone in 2008. Standing up for Pakistan now is not only about the bilateral relationship but also about China’s reliability as a partner, and the demonstration effect in this high stakes case would have resonance well beyond Seoul.
> 
> The sole countervailing factor is that China will not want to cause real damage to its relationship with India over the NSG, which matters far more to New Delhi than it does to Beijing. China knows that there would be repercussions for higher-salience issues, such as the South China Sea and the future scope of U.S.-India ties. It will also be uncomfortable about the prospect of its relationships with India and Pakistan being re-coupled at just the moment where it finally appeared to be having some success in developing them along parallel tracks. As a result, Beijing will be looking for an “out” rather than wanting to make a point of its obduracy. But that would require a compromise that will allow China to credibly claim that it has preserved an opening for the Pakistanis, a possibility that is still on the table.
> 
> Short of that, no matter how effectively Beijing is diplomatically boxed in, isolation alone is unlikely to prove a sufficient deterrent to China blocking the emerging consensus over Indian membership in the NSG, and last-minute phone calls from the White House will not swing it. The sole reason China would move is because it calculates that the costs to the Sino-Indian relationship outweigh those of being seen as a fair-weather friend


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## Nilgiri

sparten said:


> Per Andrew Small.



Exactly. Intense pressure from the US (not some quid pro quo involving Chashma grandfathering which was totally independent to it)....I thought China was more resilient than that ...given the way @Chinese-Dragon is going on about their "we will always be able to be lone voice" blah blah.

Whats also funny is that China was loudly braying that the agenda of India's membership was not even on the agenda in Seoul earlier.....but today NSG specifically put a special session to discuss just that. Talk about egg on face. Any comment from China why this was allowed to be brought up for discussion in the first place? Or just hope no one will notice the affront to China's earlier claim?

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## anant_s

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If Modi went directly to Xi Jinping then he must have made some serious offers.


Something sure is cooking between two.






& Modi probably is best person for China to engage with!

NEW DELHI: *China remained the last major obstacle in the way of India's membership bid in the Nuclear Suppliers Group as 47 of 48 members supported New Delhi's application at the group's special plenary session in Seoul on Thursday.*

The session debated until midnight but failed to come to a conclusion after hours of discussions, with China adamant in its opposition. Questions and doubts by other fence-sitting countries dissolved in the course of the evening, leaving China as the last man standing against India. Officials in Seoul said the meeting would restart on Friday. After Thursday's NSG meeting, delegations were asked to revert to their headquarters for fresh instructions.

China raised a procedural block early in the day, refusing to admit the India membership issue to be discussed in the meeting. This, diplomats in the room said, caused a delay of over five hours, as the members wrestled with an agenda item. Finally, it was decided to discuss a heavily worded agenda on "political, legal and technical issues of non-NPT countries' membership. The discussions began at 9pm and ended around midnight, but remained in a deadlock.

Indian officials will be lobbying hard with the members before the meeting begins on Friday morning. The US is also expected to be working the phones on India's behalf.

Earlier Thursday afternoon, PM Narendra Modi delivered a candid message to Chinese President Xi Jinping who he met for a bilateral on the sidelines of the SCO summit in Tashkent. Sources said Modi conveyed to Xi New Delhi's expectation that China would support India in the NSG, a position that suggests that continued opposition will impact ties.

The 45-minute Modi-Xi meeting was almost entirely devoted to the NSG issue and China's opposition. A readout of the meeting was given by official spokesperson Vikas Swarup who said, "PM Modi urged China to make a fair and objective assessment of India's application and judge it on its own merit. He said China should contribute to the emerging consensus in Seoul."

Until late Thursday evening however, Chinese diplomats in Seoul held on to their tough stand against India. Brazil and South Africa, two other members of BRICS, stood behind India, as did Russia. The consensus emerged through the evening's discussions, with countries like Ireland, Switzerland and Austria, even Brazil raising questions on process - but these whittled down to supporting India's candidature. Turkey stuck to its position of supporting India and Pakistan. However, Pakistan's NSG bid was not discussed at length, however the presence of the application was the reason for a lot of discussion on non-NPT countries.

China's continued obduracy raises serious questions in the Indian government about the value of organisations like BRICS, RIC or even BASIC, where India and China are believed to be working together. If China continues with its opposition, sources said there could be consequences for bilateral relations with Beijing, because it would be a direct refusal to an Indian head of the government.

The meeting in Seoul began with the outgoing Argentine chair Rafael Grossi presenting a positive report on India's commitments and compliance. South Korea, which took over the chairmanship of the nuclear cartel steered the discussion on India's membership, said sources.

China's stand might wreck India's chances this time if Beijing continues to hold out. But the fact that India has mounted such a huge diplomatic exercise will play to India's advantage going forward. All eyes now will be on the last minute role that the US and other big supporters of India play on Friday to help bring China around.

Meanwhile, Xi met Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain in Tashkent, where the two sides reaffirmed their strong bonds, describing themselves as "iron brothers". A Pakistan foreign ministry statement quoted Pak president as saying, "exception given for NSG membership could disturb strategic stability in South Asia."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indias-NSG-bid-stops-at-China-wall/articleshow/52891969.cms



Muhammad Omar said:


> so if 47 countries agrees and only 1 country isn't you won't get into NSG??


Yes thats how it works, either there is a unanimous consensus or agenda item dropped.

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## Nilgiri

anant_s said:


> Something sure is cooking between two.
> View attachment 313029
> 
> 
> & Modi probably is best person for China to engage with!
> 
> NEW DELHI: *China remained the last major obstacle in the way of India's membership bid in the Nuclear Suppliers Group as 47 of 48 members supported New Delhi's application at the group's special plenary session in Seoul on Thursday.*
> 
> The session debated until midnight but failed to come to a conclusion after hours of discussions, with China adamant in its opposition. Questions and doubts by other fence-sitting countries dissolved in the course of the evening, leaving China as the last man standing against India. Officials in Seoul said the meeting would restart on Friday. After Thursday's NSG meeting, delegations were asked to revert to their headquarters for fresh instructions.
> 
> China raised a procedural block early in the day, refusing to admit the India membership issue to be discussed in the meeting. This, diplomats in the room said, caused a delay of over five hours, as the members wrestled with an agenda item. Finally, it was decided to discuss a heavily worded agenda on "political, legal and technical issues of non-NPT countries' membership. The discussions began at 9pm and ended around midnight, but remained in a deadlock.
> 
> Indian officials will be lobbying hard with the members before the meeting begins on Friday morning. The US is also expected to be working the phones on India's behalf.
> 
> Earlier Thursday afternoon, PM Narendra Modi delivered a candid message to Chinese President Xi Jinping who he met for a bilateral on the sidelines of the SCO summit in Tashkent. Sources said Modi conveyed to Xi New Delhi's expectation that China would support India in the NSG, a position that suggests that continued opposition will impact ties.
> 
> The 45-minute Modi-Xi meeting was almost entirely devoted to the NSG issue and China's opposition. A readout of the meeting was given by official spokesperson Vikas Swarup who said, "PM Modi urged China to make a fair and objective assessment of India's application and judge it on its own merit. He said China should contribute to the emerging consensus in Seoul."
> 
> Until late Thursday evening however, Chinese diplomats in Seoul held on to their tough stand against India. Brazil and South Africa, two other members of BRICS, stood behind India, as did Russia. The consensus emerged through the evening's discussions, with countries like Ireland, Switzerland and Austria, even Brazil raising questions on process - but these whittled down to supporting India's candidature. Turkey stuck to its position of supporting India and Pakistan. However, Pakistan's NSG bid was not discussed at length, however the presence of the application was the reason for a lot of discussion on non-NPT countries.
> 
> China's continued obduracy raises serious questions in the Indian government about the value of organisations like BRICS, RIC or even BASIC, where India and China are believed to be working together. If China continues with its opposition, sources said there could be consequences for bilateral relations with Beijing, because it would be a direct refusal to an Indian head of the government.
> 
> The meeting in Seoul began with the outgoing Argentine chair Rafael Grossi presenting a positive report on India's commitments and compliance. South Korea, which took over the chairmanship of the nuclear cartel steered the discussion on India's membership, said sources.
> 
> China's stand might wreck India's chances this time if Beijing continues to hold out. But the fact that India has mounted such a huge diplomatic exercise will play to India's advantage going forward. All eyes now will be on the last minute role that the US and other big supporters of India play on Friday to help bring China around.
> 
> Meanwhile, Xi met Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain in Tashkent, where the two sides reaffirmed their strong bonds, describing themselves as "iron brothers". A Pakistan foreign ministry statement quoted Pak president as saying, "exception given for NSG membership could disturb strategic stability in South Asia."
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indias-NSG-bid-stops-at-China-wall/articleshow/52891969.cms
> 
> 
> Yes thats how it works, either there is a unanimous consensus or agenda item dropped.



In a way I think the Chinese are simply pushing back against the speed of whats happening.

I mean just a few days ago, they were saying NSG membership discussion would not even be on the agenda of the Seoul Meeting.

They take face saving very seriously. Modi has time to work all the angles and then put plan B (which is already probably scripted and vetted by India and her friends) to action if that fails.

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## DesiGuy1403

Nilgiri said:


> In a way I think the Chinese are simply pushing back against the speed of whats happening.
> 
> I mean just a few days ago, they were saying NSG membership discussion would not even be on the agenda of the Seoul Meeting.
> 
> They take face saving very seriously. Modi has time to work all the angles and then put plan B (which is already probably scripted and vetted by India and her friends) to action if that fails.



If every other country is on board, I highy doubt Chinese will object to it, unless they can inject some technicality and stop the process.

That being said, the huge negative PR disaster unfolding in India for Chinese is not something Chinese would under-estimate.

It is one thing to "compete" and other thing to oppose. After their support to terrorist operating against India in UN, which cause a huge backlash in India, I am hoping Chinese are more sensible.

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## SR-91

DesiGuy1403 said:


> I think this will be one of the defining moments of India -China relationships.
> The moment we will analyse decades down the line and say this is the result of our current relationship status, whether positive or negative.
> 
> The thing that will worry China is the huge backlash already building in Indian public over China. It would be very easy for current govt to build on this and really make it tough for Chinese to do business in India.
> 
> Oh, Indian govt won't ban any Chinese goods or company but they will run a campaign where Indians would neither sell nor but Chinese products.




Unfortunately, everything is made in China. I don't know how anyone can avoid that.

China will most likely stand by her decision. India should push harder for plan "B", India needs a diplomatic win here.


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## Nilgiri

DesiGuy1403 said:


> If every other country is on board, I highy doubt Chinese will object to it, unless they can inject some technicality and stop the process.
> 
> That being said, the huge negative PR disaster unfolding in India for Chinese is not something Chinese would under-estimate.
> 
> It is one thing to "compete" and other thing to oppose. After their support to terrorist operating against India in UN, which cause a huge backlash in India, I am hoping Chinese are more sensible.



Well lets wait and see. I have a feeling Chinese will eventually relent at some time this year. Xi Jinping may have already informed Modi of when so Modi can make the proper decisions and plan for it accordingly.


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## DesiGuy1403

SR-91 said:


> Unfortunately, everything is made in China. I don't know how anyone can avoid that.



Not really.
If a govt wants, it can get local alternatives pretty fast, by giving subsidies etc.
Point is, it all depends of the will of current govt.

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## Nilgiri

SR-91 said:


> Unfortunately, everything is made in China. I don't know how anyone can avoid that.



Purely end use consumption products can be tarrifed under dumping norms till they effecitvely become a quota. Then let the case China puts in WTO drag on for however long giving a window for indian and other countries suppliers to fill it in the meantime.

Intermediates can be analysed as to their benefit for further labour processing within India and tariffed accordingly.

No free rides given to Chinese suppliers. They will be discriminated and treated prejudicially by Indian govt.

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## SR-91

DesiGuy1403 said:


> Not really.
> If a govt wants, it can get local alternatives pretty fast, by giving subsidies etc.
> Point is, it all depends of the will of current govt.




Local alternatives??? 

Do explain.


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## rcrmj

indians````apart from making sensational headlines and self-consolation they aren't really good at anything

'achieving hidden goal'
'isolating China'
'moral high ground'
'alliance with america'

 what more mental-masturbation you lot are contemplating on to ridicule yourselves?

at the end day, with massive 1.3billion population, you are still a chess played by others on international stage, I dont see any reason India can be a serious player anyway

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## DesiGuy1403

SR-91 said:


> Local alternatives???
> 
> Do explain.



Examples are Chinese imported items which have local alternatives, examples like Chinese fire crackers & Chinese murthys etc..
You don't need to go at high tech items immediately. But there are significant number of low tech items with local alternatives in India that can be readily targeted.


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## SR-91

Nilgiri said:


> Purely end use consumption products can be tarrifed under dumping norms till they effecitvely become a quota. Then let the case China puts in WTO drag on for however long giving a window for indian and other countries suppliers to fill it in the meantime.
> 
> Intermediates can be analysed as to their benefit for further labour processing within India and tariffed accordingly.
> 
> No free rides given to Chinese suppliers. They will be discriminated and treated prejudicially by Indian govt.





DesiGuy1403 said:


> Examples are Chinese imported items which have local alternatives, examples like Chinese fire crackers & Chinese murthys etc..
> You don't need to go at high tech items immediately. But there are significant number of low tech items with local alternatives in India that can be readily targeted.



I'm the last person here advocating for China, but this will hurt India more than it will help. Political implications are high..

"We should not punch below our weight but we should not try to punch above weight".

----------AJIT DOVAL-----------


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## neem456

Latest TOI is reporting that now 47 out of 48 countries are supporting india and only opposition is from china alone.

Is this true, any other source confirming this ?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indias-NSG-bid-stops-at-China-wall/articleshow/52891969.cms


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## DesiGuy1403

SR-91 said:


> I'm the last person here advocating for China, but this will hurt India more than it will help. Political implications are high..
> 
> "We should not punch below our weight but we should not try to punch above weight".
> 
> ----------AJIT DOVAL-----------



Sir, it's not a question of us punching some one.
we are already being punched. Question now is, will we punch back or will we just take the punches and pretend the punches never came.

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## neem456

Anees said:


> And Where is Pak Standing ?? How many oppose or supported in 48 ???


Sir, NSG rejected their case even to be discussed. 
Only indian case is under scrutiny.



imran169 said:


> Lol 47 out of 48?...Turkey, SA, NZ, Austria +1 or 2 countries also opposed Indian membership...Seems these countries reject US Pressure...!



Sir things are changing on hourly basis, its like a live match, gone down the wire.
As the day begin it was 6-7 countries opposing, as the day ended now it is china alone.

1:47 should be trending today to shame china.

So much for supporting peaceful rise.


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## thesolar65

Efforts to get entry into elite NSG club is OK. But please intensify efforts to harness Thorium power instead of running after elusive Uranium.

@danger007 @Nilgiri @Tamilnadu 

Handshake in Tashkent, Backstabbing in Seoul. That's what my local newspapers are reporting. China won't support even if India signs NPT(which it won't though). India has to strive hard to get nuclear energy on its own like the supercomp saga of 80's. And do you guys think India should try another time? I don't think so.

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## Nilgiri

SR-91 said:


> I'm the last person here advocating for China, but this will hurt India more than it will help. Political implications are high..
> 
> "We should not punch below our weight but we should not try to punch above weight".
> 
> ----------AJIT DOVAL-----------



Explain how it will hurt India? We have already taken action against Chinese steel dumping....and thats an intermediate good.

Finished goods are the really soft target. Our consumers can take a little hit on the price increase if needed, esp if it means helping domestic and non-chinese industry.

What are we importing from China that is absolutely critical? Energy? Nope. Transport? Nope. Education? Nope. Health? Nope.....Imports of finished goods are price elastic...so are the machinery and capital goods, plenty of suppliers for those...even domestic ones. A little closing off from China can be a good thing for India from that stand point alone.

The only thing that needs caution are intermediate goods that are inputs for Indian manufacturing jobs. Other than that, pretty punitive action can be taken. Indian exports to China are not that significant if they resort to a trade war. CAD will improve overall.

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## danger007

thesolar65 said:


> Efforts to get entry into elite NSG club is OK. But please intensify efforts to harness Thorium power instead of running after elusive Uranium.
> 
> @danger007 @Nilgiri @Tamilnadu
> 
> Handshake in Tashkent, Backstabbing in Seoul. That's what my local newspapers are reporting. China won't support even if India signs NPT(which it won't though). India has to strive hard to get nuclear energy on its own like the supercomp saga of 80's. And do you guys think India should try another time? I don't think so.




China trying hard to get cookies, the recent developments be it JAPAN admission into Malabar or recent developments with USA.. that is china you can't expect much... just blackmail politics ..

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## Nilgiri

thesolar65 said:


> Efforts to get entry into elite NSG club is OK. But please intensify efforts to harness Thorium power instead of running after elusive Uranium.
> 
> @danger007 @Nilgiri @Tamilnadu
> 
> Handshake in Tashkent, Backstabbing in Seoul. That's what my local newspapers are reporting. China won't support even if India signs NPT(which it won't though). India has to strive hard to get nuclear energy on its own like the supercomp saga of 80's. And do you guys think India should try another time? I don't think so.



Its for temporary needs only bro. 3 Step thorium cycle is in full force as well...but we need uranium to hedge as well...especially till thorium research is completed and technology fully matured.

There is no harm in trying again to get into NSG either....but better is to put plan B into motion (form another group with relevant parties).

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## DesiGuy1403

Nilgiri said:


> Its for temporary needs only bro. 3 Step thorium cycle is in full force as well...but we need uranium to hedge as well...especially till thorium research is completed and technology fully matured.
> 
> There is no harm in trying again to get into NSG either....but better is to put plan B into motion (form another group with relevant parties).



If China does stall our entry into NSG, it will be second time China would have done a direct harm to Indian interests.

It will be time for India to kick out Hindi-China Bhai Bhai song and sing a different tune, which would hurt the Chinese...

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## agamdilawari

*India bags all but China’s vote, decision on NSG bid likely on Friday*





Prime Minister Narendra Modi with Chinese President Xi Jinping during a meeting in Tashkent on Thursday. (PTI Photo)

Even as the Seoul meeting was taking place, on the other side of Asia in Uzbekistan, Prime Minister Narendra Modi was making a direct appeal to Chinese President Xi Jinping to support India’s entry to the NSG, saying China should make a “fair and objective” assessment of India’s candidature. Modi’s message was described as “very direct.”

*At the Seoul meeting, Japan led the way by first raising India’s membership at the NSG meeting. It was seconded by Argentina which presented a report praising India’s nuclear nonproliferation record.

China found itself left high and dry as, one by one, more than 30 NSG members declared their support for India’s joining the group. Contrary to initial reports, Brazil and South Africa were strong backers of India’s membership.*

*Austria, Ireland, Switzerland* and a few others said they supported Indian membership but wanted to know how the induction process would take place. *Turkey*, seen as Pakistan’s closest friend in the NSG after China, said it supported membership for both countries. However, Pakistan’s application was not even taken up by the other members.

Beijing used a procedural block to hold up the meeting for five hours in the morning. It conceded after an additional clause, separate from the one about India, that the NSG should consider the “political, technical and legal issues” regarding non-NPT members was added. This is seen as a possible fig-leaf for Beijing to take back to Islamabad.

The representatives, after another post-dinner round, broke for the night and contacted their respective governments for further instructions. The formal plenary begins on Friday.

In Tashkent, during his 45-minute meeting with Xi, Modi said China should “join and contribute” to the emerging consensus among NSG members on India’s candidature, according to the external affairs ministry.

Sources said Modi spoke about how India’s entry into the NSG will strengthen the global non-proliferation regime. His meeting with Xi was his first engagement in Tashkent.

There was no official word on the response from Xi, who assured Pakistan President Mamnoon Hussain shortly before the meeting with Modi that China will adopt a “criteria-based approach” for NSG membership that will support Islamabad’s application.

Continued Chinese opposition to India’s membership in the NSG could threaten bilateral relations between the two Asian giants, especially in fora like BRICS, the Russia-India-China triangle and even the climate change bloc BASIC.

But officially Beijing has sought to de-link its position on NSG membership from its ties with India.

“We believe that with regard to the admission of new members a decision shall be made with through discussion within the group,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said ahead of Modi’s meeting with Xi.

“We do not believe that it (Beijing’s position on admitting new members to the NSG) is an issue concerning the bilateral relationship between China and India.”

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...y-on-friday/story-8ZZdZHRnEyPtxgleWsjTOI.html

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## Nilgiri

DesiGuy1403 said:


> If China does stall our entry into NSG, it will be second time China would have done a direct harm to Indian interests.
> 
> It will be time for India to kick out Hindi-China Bhai Bhai song and sing a different tune, which would hurt the Chinese...



What you mean 2nd time? They have harmed our interests plenty of times. Probably the biggest is their role in proliferating nuclear weapons to Pakistan.

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## kaykay

Good diplomacy.....If not today, we'll get it next time...

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

If this news is accurate. This is a big blow for Chinese stalling attempts.

Thanks to Japan and surprisingly Argentina for being party poopers to Chinese attempts to stall

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## kṣamā

Genghis khan1 said:


>





Sipahi said:


> Chalo acha ho gya ye tou





Usman Siddiaue said:


> better luck next time





Ranasikander said:


> View attachment 312993
> 
> For all my fellow indian kids, who are crying.


I am not even mad. This is just pathetic and sad.

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## Sipahi

kṣamā said:


> I am not even mad. This is just pathetic and sad.



abey bhai tm NSG k member ban jate tou hmain bilawaja aik aur ehsan lena parta cheen ka


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## kṣamā

Sipahi said:


> abey bhai tm NSG k member ban jate tou hmain bilawaja aik aur ehsan lena parta cheen ka


Bhai sahab aap log toh ab bhi China ka ehsan loge. Humare jane ya na Jane se kuch farak nahi padega.


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## Sipahi

kṣamā said:


> Bhai sahab aap log toh ab bhi China ka ehsan loge. Humare jane ya na Jane se kuch farak nahi padega.



fark parta na  agar aap ka ho jata tou hm par double pressure hota like jese cousin pass ho jata hai tou pressure barh jata hai


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## liall

China is playing the same game US was playing a few decades ago. Supporting Pakistan to counter India and get an ally in South Asia. China is doing the same but you wait for a while and China will come around as well lol

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## neem456

China exposed ites veil.
Shame its 1:47

-China also says it is ready to hold Nuclear bilateral talks with India


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## Ryuzaki

What is the the benefit of being in NSG?Can anybody explain?

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## somebozo

From the diplomacy it looks a very close carrot and stick call for India..


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## Nilgiri

Ryuzaki said:


> What is the the benefit of being in NSG?Can anybody explain?



Formalises and eases nuclear trade for India. We do not have to make a bilateral deal with each member seperately (esp w.r.t liability negotiations as we can just base on existing NSG framework) on basis of the waiver like we are doing currently.

Also it helps India in exporting its nuclear technology as it will more easily get IAEA certification as a member of NSG.

India will also get access to dual use enrichment technology (which is not covered by the waiver).

Indian access to standard nuclear technology (reactors and components - directly or design) and fuel (Uranium ore, yellow cake or direct pellets) will not be affected by NSG membership as that is covered by the waiver thoroughly.

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## ConcealCarry

license to nuclear proliferation without consequences 



Ryuzaki said:


> What is the the benefit of being in NSG?Can anybody explain?

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## Stealth

JD_In said:


> thats really a good news as expected...I was wondering when I read Brazil opposing India in the original post from OP....lets keep the fingures crossed...we have already achieved one hidden goal of isolating china..this will help is in UNSC...China, Pakistan, North Korea...what an alliance ..



lol aween ka credit lena lol oo bhai you're not important in the international world global matters like China.. that was US behind you who is busy in convincing countries because you're TOOL of United States against China ... lol @ we do this and we do that bullshit credits


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## Roybot

Opposing India at every possible platform will only push India further into the American camp. Whether India gets into NSG or not, its a win win situation for America.

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## Nilgiri

Roybot said:


> Opposing India at every possible platform will only push India further into the American camp. Whether India gets into NSG or not, its a win win situation for America.



Why else do you think US, UK, France, Russia were extremely keen to back India's membership 

They all get major brownie points from India now....esp US.


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## Great Sachin

Wow...I wonder who is losing here India or China....

Even Pakistan's close friend Turkey is supporting India...

I can say only one thing .....Jai ho



somebozo said:


> From the diplomacy it looks a very close carrot and stick call for India..


Look what awkward position Pakistan put China into...not a single country backing China

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## neem456

If i am right, the NSG meet is over now, and there is no final decision on indias bid.


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## forcetrip

I would wait for the official statement Friday because there seem to be conflicting reports as of now.

*India’s bid to join NSG hits dead end*

ISLAMABAD: The Nuclear Suppliers Group on Thursday failed to reach consensus on India’s membership application after several members of the international nuclear trade cartel insisted on adhering to Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) condition for admission, thus blocking Delhi’s entry for now, a diplomatic source said.
The group decided that it would deal with non-NPT states with an even hand, the source added.
*A formal announcement would be made at the conclusion of the NSG’s plenary meeting in Seoul on Friday. 
The countries that opposed India’s application included China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey. To India’s shock, some of the countries that had initially pledged support for its candidature did not do so at the meeting.*

Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at Carnegie Endowment, tweeted that about a quarter of the 48 member-NSG raised issues about Indian candidature.
The NSG works through consensus and India would not have been able to make it into the club even if a single country had opposed its application.

*The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.
India is said to be runnng the largest unsafeguarded nuclear programme with a fissile production capacity 7.7 times greater than that of Pakistan. *

China was the main challenger of the Indian bid, which was being backed by a number of Western countries. Beijing was opposed to giving exception to New Delhi and had been demanding deliberations on the accession of non-NPT countries.

Indian hopes about ending Chinese opposition had revolved around a meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping on the sidelines of the SCO summit in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. But the interaction did not achieve that and President Xi, even before meeting Mr Modi, told his Pakistani counterpart Mamnoon Hussain that his government would persist with criteria-based approach for the NSG membership.
India, according to a foreign diplomatic source, was not on the agenda of the plenary meeting, but Japan called for consideration of its application.

Pakistan’s case was, meanwhile, not taken up by the group on Thursday.
Pakistan had intensified lobbying for its candidature after it formally launched its application last month. A delegation led by Foreign Secretary Aizaz Chaudhry remained in Seoul during the NSG plenary meeting for continuing that effort.
The source said the Pakistani delegation met representatives from 25 countries on the sidelines of the session.
Foreign Office spokesman Nafees Zakaria had earlier said that several NSG members “want detailed discussions within NSG to first agree upon criteria for admission of non-NPT countries to the group with a view to preserving the non-proliferation norms”.

Pakistan, Mr Zakaria said, would continue to highlight its strong credentials and pursue NSG membership based on non-discriminatory and objective criteria.

He further said that Pakistani and Indian applications cannot be considered in isolation from the goal of maintaining strategic stability in South Asia.

Zahir Kazmi, an official of the Strategic Plans Division, had a day earlier at a lecture at the Centre for International Strategic Studies (CISS) said Pakistan expected NSG to fairly and simultaneously consider its application along with that of India.

Zamir Akram, Pakistan’s former envoy to the United Nations in Geneva, had at a roundtable at Strategic Vision Institute said Pakistan was opposed to “exclusive membership” for India and supported evolution of criteria that can be applied across the board.

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## A$HU

forcetrip said:


> I would wait for the official statement Friday because there seem to be conflicting reports as of now.
> 
> *India’s bid to join NSG hits dead end*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Nuclear Suppliers Group on Thursday failed to reach consensus on India’s membership application after several members of the international nuclear trade cartel insisted on adhering to Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) condition for admission, thus blocking Delhi’s entry for now, a diplomatic source said.
> The group decided that it would deal with non-NPT states with an even hand, the source added.
> *A formal announcement would be made at the conclusion of the NSG’s plenary meeting in Seoul on Friday.
> The countries that opposed India’s application included China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey. To India’s shock, some of the countries that had initially pledged support for its candidature did not do so at the meeting.*
> 
> Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at Carnegie Endowment, tweeted that about a quarter of the 48 member-NSG raised issues about Indian candidature.
> The NSG works through consensus and India would not have been able to make it into the club even if a single country had opposed its application.
> 
> *The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.
> India is said to be runnng the largest unsafeguarded nuclear programme with a fissile production capacity 7.7 times greater than that of Pakistan. *
> 
> China was the main challenger of the Indian bid, which was being backed by a number of Western countries. Beijing was opposed to giving exception to New Delhi and had been demanding deliberations on the accession of non-NPT countries.
> 
> Indian hopes about ending Chinese opposition had revolved around a meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping on the sidelines of the SCO summit in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. But the interaction did not achieve that and President Xi, even before meeting Mr Modi, told his Pakistani counterpart Mamnoon Hussain that his government would persist with criteria-based approach for the NSG membership.
> India, according to a foreign diplomatic source, was not on the agenda of the plenary meeting, but Japan called for consideration of its application.
> 
> Pakistan’s case was, meanwhile, not taken up by the group on Thursday.
> Pakistan had intensified lobbying for its candidature after it formally launched its application last month. A delegation led by Foreign Secretary Aizaz Chaudhry remained in Seoul during the NSG plenary meeting for continuing that effort.
> The source said the Pakistani delegation met representatives from 25 countries on the sidelines of the session.
> Foreign Office spokesman Nafees Zakaria had earlier said that several NSG members “want detailed discussions within NSG to first agree upon criteria for admission of non-NPT countries to the group with a view to preserving the non-proliferation norms”.
> 
> Pakistan, Mr Zakaria said, would continue to highlight its strong credentials and pursue NSG membership based on non-discriminatory and objective criteria.
> 
> He further said that Pakistani and Indian applications cannot be considered in isolation from the goal of maintaining strategic stability in South Asia.
> 
> Zahir Kazmi, an official of the Strategic Plans Division, had a day earlier at a lecture at the Centre for International Strategic Studies (CISS) said Pakistan expected NSG to fairly and simultaneously consider its application along with that of India.
> 
> Zamir Akram, Pakistan’s former envoy to the United Nations in Geneva, had at a roundtable at Strategic Vision Institute said Pakistan was opposed to “exclusive membership” for India and supported evolution of criteria that can be applied across the board.


Lol stopped reading as soon as I saw Russia opposing Indian bid.

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## datalibdaz

forcetrip said:


> I would wait for the official statement Friday because there seem to be conflicting reports as of now.
> 
> *India’s bid to join NSG hits dead end*
> 
> *The countries that opposed India’s application included China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey. To India’s shock, some of the countries that had initially pledged support for its candidature did not do so at the meeting.*



What!!!!!!!!Russia voted against India....Oh my....What happened to Indians billions of billion dollars deals ....How could Russia do this......


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## Johny D

India already is a winner! China's diplomacy has failed miserably and have only proven they can't be trusted or act responsibly when 47 out of 48 agrees and only 1 denies to agree with others..this will only change the system of 100% consensus at high tables like NSG and UNSC...OR sack the isolated bad boy from the groups!

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## neem456

datalibdaz said:


> What!!!!!!!!Russia voted against India....Oh my....What happened to Indians billions of billion dollars deals ....How could Russia do this......



In pakistani media sun can even rise from west.
Anything is possible there.

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## cerberus

China isolated itself and played bad diplomacy 

Even turkey supported india's bid


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## CorporateAffairs

China did not sign the NPT, why they have a membership?


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## Nilgiri

CorporateAffairs said:


> China did not sign the NPT, why they have a membership?



They acceeded to NPT in 1992. What accession to a treaty is explained here:

http://ask.un.org/faq/14594

Basically if you are not the original guys of a treaty, you generally dont sign it (original members do that and then ratify it). You just add your name to the list and accede to the conditions.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Ryuzaki said:


> What is the the benefit of being in NSG?Can anybody explain?



Being an NSG member allows India to secure its NSG waiver.

If India becomes an NSG member, India can thwart any future attempts by China to reverse the benefits of NSG waiver to India by attempting to update NSG charter.

Although its close to impossible for Chinese to rally support to update the NSG charter to nullify the waiver, given China would require every NSG member's acceptance on this and considering the current situation that 42 of 48 NSG members support our membership.

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## somebozo

Great Sachin said:


> Wow...I wonder who is losing here India or China....
> 
> Even Pakistan's close friend Turkey is supporting India...
> 
> I can say only one thing .....Jai ho
> 
> 
> Look what awkward position Pakistan put China into...not a single country backing China



Yes..please go enjoy some pie in the face

https://defence.pk/threads/no-decis...remains-adamant-not-just-china-though.436294/

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## noksss

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Umm... why not?
> 
> Unlike you guys, we don't care what foreigners think, it has zero effect on our policies.
> 
> *You know we fought against the entire United Nations during the Korean War (including the USA + 16 of her allies combined), then we went on to fight against the Soviet Union during the Sino-Soviet split. We were basically fighting against the entire world during the Cold War, now you think we are afraid of using veto power alone?*
> 
> If it serves our national interests to veto it, we'll do it in the blink of an eye. If India offers enough economic concessions though...



We get it man china is a super duper power who used its mighty muscles to defeat * USA + 16 of her allies combined, then we went on to fight against the Soviet Union during the Sino-Soviet split* and now its using the same muscle used in the Korean, Cold War to block India's bid in UN against a terrorist ,NSG and lot more . But hey whenever I see you posting this (*USA + 16 of her allies combined, then we went on to fight against the Soviet Union during the Sino-Soviet split* ) i feel like below

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## HAIDER

ISLAMABAD: The Nuclear Suppliers Group on Thursday failed to reach consensus on India’s membership application after several members of the international nuclear trade cartel insisted on adhering to Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) condition for admission, thus blocking Delhi’s entry for now, a diplomatic source said.

The group decided that it would deal with non-NPT states with an even hand, the source added.

A formal announcement would be made at the conclusion of the NSG’s plenary meeting in Seoul on Friday.

The countries that opposed India’s application included China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey. To India’s shock, some of the countries that had initially pledged support for its candidature did not do so at the meeting.

Read: _China snubs India over NSG_

Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at Carnegie Endowment, tweeted that about a quarter of the 48 member-NSG raised issues about Indian candidature.

The NSG works through consensus and India would not have been able to make it into the club even if a single country had opposed its application.

The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.

India is said to be runnng the largest unsafeguarded nuclear programme with a fissile production capacity 7.7 times greater than that of Pakistan.

China was the main challenger of the Indian bid, which was being backed by a number of Western countries. Beijing was opposed to giving exception to New Delhi and had been demanding deliberations on the accession of non-NPT countries.

Indian hopes about ending Chinese opposition had revolved around a meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping on the sidelines of the SCO summit in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. But the interaction did not achieve that and President Xi, even before meeting Mr Modi, told his Pakistani counterpart Mamnoon Hussain that his government would persist with criteria-based approach for the NSG membership.

India, according to a foreign diplomatic source, was not on the agenda of the plenary meeting, but Japan called for consideration of its application.

Pakistan’s case was, meanwhile, not taken up by the group on Thursday.

Pakistan had intensified lobbying for its candidature after it formally launched its application last month. A delegation led by Foreign Secretary Aizaz Chaudhry remained in Seoul during the NSG plenary meeting for continuing that effort.

The source said the Pakistani delegation met representatives from 25 countries on the sidelines of the session.

Foreign Office spokesman Nafees Zakaria had earlier said that several NSG members “want detailed discussions within NSG to first agree upon criteria for admission of non-NPT countries to the group with a view to preserving the non-proliferation norms”.

Pakistan, Mr Zakaria said, would continue to highlight its strong credentials and pursue NSG membership based on non-discriminatory and objective criteria.

Examine: _India's membership of Nuclear Suppliers Group 'not merited', says NYT_

He further said that Pakistani and Indian applications cannot be considered in isolation from the goal of maintaining strategic stability in South Asia.

Zahir Kazmi, an official of the Strategic Plans Division, had a day earlier at a lecture at the Centre for International Strategic Studies (CISS) said Pakistan expected NSG to fairly and simultaneously consider its application along with that of India.

Zamir Akram, Pakistan’s former envoy to the United Nations in Geneva, had at a roundtable at Strategic Vision Institute said Pakistan was opposed to “exclusive membership” for India and supported evolution of criteria that can be applied across the board.

_Published in Dawn, June 24th, 2016_

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## HAIDER

As i speculated before , Russia will not go against China..........Russia opposition biggest blow for India and big surprise .

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## GURU DUTT

as per my news 47 of 48 nations have voted in favour of indian entry then how its a dead end is the decission out on it yet ? 

wait for some time let it come out then we shall talk about it ... OK @HAIDER

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## Taimoor Khan

HAIDER said:


> The countries that opposed India’s application included China, *Russia*, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey




You too , Brutus??

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## HAIDER

GURU DUTT said:


> as per my news 47 of 48 nations have voted in favour of indian entry then how its a dead end is the decission out on it yet ?
> 
> wait for some time let it come out then we shall talk about it ... OK @HAIDER


Jo apki agia maharaj....

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## Imran Khan

The countries that opposed India’s application included China,* Russia*, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey
damn puttin played hard

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> as per my news 47 of 48 nations have voted in favour of indian entry then how its a dead end is the decission out on it yet ?
> 
> wait for some time let it come out then we shall talk about it ... OK @HAIDER



where and when have Russia opposed, they are always first to support india on any international forum

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## GURU DUTT

[Bregs] said:


> where and when have Russia opposed, they are always first to support india on any international forum


what pakistani fanboys fail to understand is the fact russia is already in a very big deal with india to make nuclear reactors/ power genration units in india more than USA & France and Japan combined plus many other deals why would they leave it all 

secondly if China is opposing and France , UK , USA Grmanay and Japan and all there allies are supporting india how long will it take us to get an entry when we are already getting all the perks associated with NSG membership without even joining it ? 

but then there love for china and hate of india blinds there thinking ... in a way its good for our cause

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## BetterPakistan

[Bregs] said:


> where and when have Russia opposed, they are always first to support india on any international forum



Russia opposed india's inclusion in NSG. Russia won't go against China. I feel the decision was good because I personally feel non NPT signatories shall not be included in NSG.

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## GURU DUTT

BetterPakistan said:


> Russia opposed india's inclusion in NSG. Russia won't go against China. I feel the decision was good because I personally feel non NPT signatories shall not be included in NSG.


as i said wait and see when the results are declared until then your guess is as good as any indians guess



Hephaestus said:


> They dont love pork eating, azaan & hijaab banning China. It's just who gives more grant. Simple.


ltes not get personal and derail the thread and most importantly talk like them ... as unme uar humme ek faraq hai aur wo rehna chihye

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## BetterPakistan

GURU DUTT said:


> as i said wait and see when the results are declared until then your guess is as good as any indians guess



As far as I have seen news coming out, multiple countries oppose India inclusion.
Do you think non NTP signatories should be included in NSG?

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## [Bregs]

BetterPakistan said:


> Russia opposed india's inclusion in NSG. Russia won't go against China. I feel the decision was good because I personally feel non NPT signatories shall not be included in NSG.[/ Russia has opposed indian bid ?



better wait till official declaration to find out who supported and who opposed because Russia has invested billions of $ in Indian civil nuclear reactors why would they oppose it, does it makes sense ?

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## BetterPakistan

[Bregs] said:


> better wait till official declaration to find out who supported and who opposed because Russia has invested billions of $ in Indian civil nuclear reactors why would they oppose it, does it makes sense ?



Russia won't go against China.
Remember China signed $400 billion gas deal with Russia when russian economy suffered badly and China, Russia are seen pretty much on the same page every time, Well lets see for the official news. As far as Russia is concerned, Putin decisions never made sense.

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## graphican



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## [Bregs]

BetterPakistan said:


> Russia won't go against China.
> Remember China signed $400 billion gas deal with Russia when russian economy suffered badly and China, Russia are seen pretty much on the same page every time, Well lets see for the official news. As far as Russia is concerned, Putin decisions never made sense.



All this doesn't means that Russia start loosing on indian nuclear deals trade and what abt indian oil cos stakes in russian oil n gas fields? wait for official declaration and all will be out

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## BetterPakistan

[Bregs] said:


> All this doesn't means that Russia start loosing on indian nuclear deals trade and what abt indian oil cos stakes in russian oil n gas fields? wait for official declaration and all will be out



Don't worry the result will be out soon.

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## Scharfschütze

Now india will make a movie where they will be included in NSG!! and their awam will be like this >>


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## OrionHunter

Guys! As per the latest info, India is out of the club in spite of the fact that 47 out of 48 countries have accepted India's entry. It's only one country that has put a spoke in the wheel. No prizes for guessing who!

Now we need to give it back to China by throwing out all their companies involved in development of infra amounting to $46 billion dollars as well as restricting Sino India trade that now stands at $75 billion in favor of China. The Chinese can't have the cake and eat it too! We need to start hurting them too. 

I do think that it would happen sooner than later. The scheduled financial dialogue in July between India and China should also be cancelled.

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## [Bregs]

OrionHunter said:


> Guys! As per the latest info, India is out of the club in spite of the fact that 47 out of 48 countries have accepted India's entry. It's only one country that has put a spoke in the wheel. No prizes for guessing who!
> 
> Now we need to give it back to China by throwing out all their companies involved in development of infra amounting to $46 billion dollars as well as restricting Sino India trade that now stands at $75 billion in favor of China. The Chinese can't have the cake and eat it too! We need to start hurting them too.
> 
> I do think that it would happen sooner than later. The scheduled financial dialogue in July between India and China should also be cancelled.



no knee jerk reactions needed from india, this was expected that in this session china wont budge. so deal might be made by next session due in winters some time


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## mohd497

OrionHunter said:


> Guys! As per the latest info, India is out of the club in spite of the fact that 47 out of 48 countries have accepted India's entry. It's only one country that has put a spoke in the wheel. No prizes for guessing who!
> 
> Now we need to give it back to China by throwing out all their companies involved in development of infra amounting to $46 billion dollars as well as restricting Sino India trade that now stands at $75 billion in favor of China. The Chinese can't have the cake and eat it too! We need to start hurting them too.
> 
> I do think that it would happen sooner than later. The scheduled financial dialogue in July between India and China should also be cancelled.


http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/this...sg-to-china-no-breakthrough-for-india-1422912

Not just china


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## [Bregs]

Updated: June 24, 2016 14:27 IST

10*COMMENTS*






Sources told NDTV that of the 48 NSG members 38 were in favour of India's membership (PTI photo)

SEOUL: * India's bid to become a member of the elite Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) has been scuttled for now with China snubbing PM Narendra Modi's outreach to President Xi Jinping,* by leading the opposition to India at the meeting in Seoul that ended today.

But it wasn't just China. NDTV has learnt that at the NSG plenary in Seoul, nine other countries also raised questions on the criteria that should be adopted for membership of the grouping, which effectively closed the door on India's membership for the moment.

Government sources have told NDTV that of the 48 members of the NSG, 38 countries were in favour of India's membership.


*Sources say three countries including Ireland and New Zealand took the line that the criteria for admission for non-NPT states should be discussed first while India's membership can be taken up later.*

*Six countries, including Brazil and Switzerland, said they wanted a discussion on criteria and India's membership to take place simultaneously. Government officials say Brazil told India it supports India's membership but wants to look at a common criteria for non- NPT states as well.*

*The clear opposition to India came from China. Sources say China tried to block any discussion on India most of Thursday* and only agreed to a special late night meeting on the condition that there would be no decision on India in this NSG plenary.

Meanwhile, in an apparent dig at China, the government said "despite procedural hurdles persistently raised by one country, a three hour long discussion took place last night on the issue of (India's) future participation in the NSG.

"India believes that an early decision on its application remains in larger global interest. It is our understanding that most countries want an early decision," said the statement issued by Ministry of External Affairs.

On Friday morning, China's top negotiator at the NSG, Ambassador Wang Qun, ruled out India's membership, telling reporters, "the NSG won't discuss Indian membership yet. Many differences are there on admitting non-NPT members." He called it a matter of principle.

His statement followed Prime Minister Narendra Modi's meeting with Chinese President Xi Jingping on the sidelines of a multilateral summit in Tashkent on Thursday.

Requesting a "fair and objective assessment" of India's bid, PM Modi had said New Delhi's case should be judged on its own merits and that China should contribute to an emerging consensus in Seoul.

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## [--Leo--]

GURU DUTT said:


> as per my news 47 of 48 nations have voted in favour of indian entry then how its a dead end is the decission out on it yet ?
> 
> wait for some time let it come out then we shall talk about it ... OK @HAIDER



Indian media keep telling you lie to increase their TRP so accept the reality you are out ! 
Indian media keep generating false news for their TRP and opposing china turkey and pakistan 
but reality is india was "*not on merit*" for NSG membership . india was trying to get membership from the support of america and other counties which is not right according to rules. 
USA and France etc these country supported india because of huge market that india provides to them 
Moral: Its all about money

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## grey boy 2

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rt-to-indias-nsg-bid/articleshow/52899055.cms
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...in-the-case-of-india/articleshow/52899535.cms
Yeah, China is isolated, poor India still failed her NSG bid despite getting 47 out of 48 NSG members countries support
Hopefully some ignorant Indians will stop spreading some face saving rumor to blame her failure on China ALONE
Thanks

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## Globaltracker81

[Bregs] said:


> no knee jerk reactions needed from india, this was expected that in this session china wont budge. so deal might be made by next session due in winters some time


I think we just need to make BIS certification stronger for all cheap & low quality imports restricted overall. Any guess which country has largest slice in that (Chinese). By this we would be encouraging only quality stuff to be imported and local industry would become more active and kick start the Made in India in big way. Next big advantage would be Chinese imports would be hit without damaging our industry and also outlook of we getting revenge wouldn't come up in discussions.

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## calmDown@all

[--Leo--] said:


> Indian media keep telling you lie to increase their TRP so accept the reality you are out !
> Indian media keep generating false news for their TRP and opposing china turkey and pakistan
> but reality is india was "*not on merit*" for NSG membership . india was trying to get membership from the support of america and other counties which is not right according to rules.
> USA and France etc these country supported india because of huge market that india provides to them
> Moral: Its all about money


Kyu saheb app kya dahi bade doge entry ke liye

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## GURU DUTT

[--Leo--] said:


> Indian media keep telling you lie to increase their TRP so accept the reality you are out !
> Indian media keep generating false news for their TRP and opposing china turkey and pakistan
> but reality is india was "*not on merit*" for NSG membership . india was trying to get membership from the support of america and other counties which is not right according to rules.
> USA and France etc these country supported india because of huge market that india provides to them
> Moral: Its all about money


who told you i was quoting indian media lolzz i myself never belive in paid indian media presstitutes but does that means i have no other sources 



calmDown@all said:


> Kyu saheb app kya dahi bade doge entry ke liye
> View attachment 313153


ye galat hai bhai rozze chall rahe hain iftari ke baad aisee gair munasib tasweere dallen tab tak aisee tasweeren na dikhaye ... shukria

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## Imran Khan

lolllz dead end for now btw modi is silent why ?

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## calmDown@all

GURU DUTT said:


> ye galat hai bhai rozze chall rahe hain iftari ke baad aisee gair munasib tasweere dallen tab tak aisee tasweeren na dikhaye ... shukria


]




galti ho gai

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## GURU DUTT

Imran Khan said:


> lolllz dead end for now btw modi is silent why ?


salaam bhai jaan rozze kaise chal rahe hain  

well result is still not out let it come first as for NaMo's sielence well you can call it lull before storm

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## mohd497

Globaltracker81 said:


> I think we just need to make BIS certification stronger for all cheap & low quality imports restricted overall. Any guess which country has largest slice in that (Chinese). By this we would be encouraging only quality stuff to be imported and local industry would become more active and kick start the Made in India in big way. Next big advantage would be Chinese imports would be hit without damaging our industry and also outlook of we getting revenge wouldn't come up in discussions.


Why only china? Switzerland also opposed. Stop their exports too.


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## GURU DUTT

calmDown@all said:


> ]
> 
> View attachment 313156
> galti ho gai

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## OrionHunter

grey boy 2 said:


> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rt-to-indias-nsg-bid/articleshow/52899055.cms
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...in-the-case-of-india/articleshow/52899535.cms
> Yeah, China is isolated, poor India still failed her NSG bid despite getting 47 out of 48 NSG members countries support
> Hopefully some ignorant Indians will stop spreading some face saving rumor to blame her failure on China ALONE
> Thanks


So what's new? China is in the habit of pissing off a lot of countries by its arrogance - Philippines, Malaysia, India, Vietnam, Japan, Indonesia, Brunei South Korea, Taiwan etc. It has even junked UN treaties like the UNCLOS and encouraged terrorists like Azhar and their terror organizations like the JeM and the LeT by flatly refusing to agree on putting sanctions against them in spite of the overwhelming agreement at the UN. This at the behest of their deeper than ocean friends! Nuff said. 

China clearly is working at a tangent and cares two hoots to the principles and code of international diplomacy and the rule of law.

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## GURU DUTT

mohd497 said:


> Why only china? Switzerland also opposed. Stop their exports too.


let me guess what are there exports to india ... chocolettes, expensive watches and of course stage trainer for IAF ... in a way good for indias health wealth and most importantlly HAL

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## grey boy 2

Viper101 said:


> May be one or two more than China or Switzerland but it's funny to wonder that Chinese are turned down by other how many countries!!BTW about the face saving rumor,the page you posted is Indian


Read: #22
"Facts or Fictions"? you be the judge

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## Srinivas

Last Year India was also denied MTCR, but we are a member right now !

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## GURU DUTT

OrionHunter said:


> Guys! As per the latest info, India is out of the club in spite of the fact that 47 out of 48 countries have accepted India's entry. It's only one country that has put a spoke in the wheel. No prizes for guessing who!
> 
> Now we need to give it back to China by throwing out all their companies involved in development of infra amounting to $46 billion dollars as well as restricting Sino India trade that now stands at $75 billion in favor of China. The Chinese can't have the cake and eat it too! We need to start hurting them too.
> 
> I do think that it would happen sooner than later. The scheduled financial dialogue in July between India and China should also be cancelled.


so now after media presstitutes and congressies and there NGO stooges exporters exporting good from china becomeing new anty modi lobby ... man im so scared


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## grey boy 2

OrionHunter said:


> So what's new? China is in the habit of pissing off a lot of countries by its arrogance - Philippines, Malaysia, India, Vietnam, Japan, Indonesia, Brunei South Korea, Taiwan etc. It has even junked UN treaties like the UNCLOS and encouraged terrorists like Azhar and their terror organizations like the JeM and the LeT by flatly refusing to agree on putting sanctions against them in spite of the overwhelming agreement at the UN. This at the behest of their deeper than ocean friends! Nuff said.
> 
> China clearly is working at a tangent and cares two hoots to the principles and code of international diplomacy and the rule of law.


Kindly reread your own post #22
I'm afraid shooting lies will get you nowhere
And please stop being such a "poor loser" when you get caught with your pants down for spreading LIES

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## Srinivas

Viper101 said:


> There is no Chinese



Talking as if Chinese are a rock, they have tested the waters and they know the situation now. No need to worry !

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## [--Leo--]

calmDown@all said:


> Kyu saheb app kya dahi bade doge entry ke liye
> View attachment 313153



Jo dena tha De diya now feel it !  hahahahahha


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## [Bregs]

OrionHunter said:


> So what's new? China is in the habit of pissing off a lot of countries by its arrogance - Philippines, Malaysia, India, Vietnam, Japan, Indonesia, Brunei South Korea, Taiwan etc. It has even junked UN treaties like the UNCLOS and encouraged terrorists like Azhar and their terror organizations like the JeM and the LeT by flatly refusing to agree on putting sanctions against them in spite of the overwhelming agreement at the UN. This at the behest of their deeper than ocean friends! Nuff said.
> 
> China clearly is working at a tangent and cares two hoots to the principles and code of international diplomacy and the rule of law.



what else cane be expected from a communist regimes, they behave like this only


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## Irfan Baloch

HAIDER said:


> As i speculated before , Russia will not go against China..........Russia opposition biggest blow for India and big surprise .


on the web Indians were taunting and trolling saying China is alone in this opposition
but I was not expecting Russia.



Viper101 said:


> Lol Only Dawn website has written that Russia opposed India..Except China everyone supported India & few gave conditional support.Funny part is Pakistani's demand to NSG not even taken into consideration or intentionally ignored cause nobody cares..
> Even few days ago they intentionally aired about their made up fake rape incident to blame India which never happened & not a single Afghani web page had posted about that..This proves how Pakistani media works & stereotypes things..


and you had to make an account today to report this?
how authentic eh?

BUSTED

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## neem456

BetterPakistan said:


> Russia opposed india's inclusion in NSG. Russia won't go against China. I feel the decision was good because I personally feel non NPT signatories shall not be included in NSG.



Even the puny nations of central asia and souther america went against china, let alone the super power russia, which is ally of india to begin with.

Goes to show the mental condition of pakistani media and its followers when russia alone is the bigget benefactor of NSG waiver and is the only country who is in the advanced stage of completing the nuclear plant in kundankulam, tamil nadu, ahed of french, americans etc, and then they will vote against india ? Even a newbie will torpadoe such a reporting. Very poor.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Thank u Turkey and China........Guys!!! Turkey is also on board with China on this.....As a Pakistani, it is so great to see that our two iron brothers are pursuing merit and defending Pakistan's case and denying India's special privilege in NSG entry.....I m lovin it.....Oh to add more salt.......Thank you Mr. Putin.....Russia is so great, so loving and so nice. I must respect Russia's stance on this.

As for Indians........Pakistan is reminding you that stopping our f16s was a very poor idea/mistake.....who ever done it in modi's team....Some men do, whole nation sows and cry....

This is how Indians will be tamed. They ride too much high. Sooner or later, they will behave.....

Indians are advised to enjoy Logistics agreement with US and join SCS.....It'll do wonders for them....

A sincere advice from your friendly neighbor Pakistan....

Regards
your well wisher
PakLovesTurkiye

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## Iggy

Irfan Baloch said:


> on the web Indians were taunting and trolling saying China is alone in this opposition
> but I was not expecting Russia.
> ?



None of the news paper except Dawn reported about Russia opposing. Will have to wait for confirmation.

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## cirr

Our Indian friends need to understand a few basic things, the least of which is to abide by rules governing the admission and membership of NSG

*Think out of the box, China tells India after failed NSG bid*

June 24, 2016 15:47

Defending its opposition to entry of non-NPT countries like India into NSG, China today said it was guided by the rules of the 48-nation grouping which were not directed against any specific country. 

It also advocated an "out of the box" thinking to arrive at a consensus over the issue of entry of non-NPT countries into the Nuclear Suppliers Group. 

"China wants two things; we must abide by the rules of NSG because these kind of rules are not directed against any specific country. We must strive for consensus by thinking out of the box," Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying said at a briefing. 

Hua claimed that during the NSG's plenary session in Seoul, China worked together with a couple of other countries to press ahead with the entry of non-NPT states through "creative means".

"This is also major progress achieved at the plenary session. China has been working positively and constructively to that end," she said.

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## calmDown@all

All NPT non-weapons states must accept these full-scope safeguards. In the five weapons states plus the non-NPT states (India, Pakistan and Israel), facility-specific safeguards apply. IAEA inspectors regularly visit these facilities to verify completeness and accuracy of records.

The terms of the NPT cannot be enforced by the IAEA itself, nor can nations be forced to sign the treaty. In reality, as shown in Iraq and North Korea, safeguards can be backed up by diplomatic, political and economic measures.
how can these two things go side by side please someone explain it.........
 @GURU DUTT @Srinivas


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## [Bregs]

cirr said:


> Our Indian friends need to understand a few basic things, the least of which is to abide by rules governing the admission and membership of NSG
> 
> *Think out of the box, China tells India after failed NSG bid*
> 
> June 24, 2016 15:47
> 
> Defending its opposition to entry of non-NPT countries like India into NSG, China today said it was guided by the rules of the 48-nation grouping which were not directed against any specific country.
> 
> It also advocated an "out of the box" thinking to arrive at a consensus over the issue of entry of non-NPT countries into the Nuclear Suppliers Group.
> 
> "China wants two things; we must abide by the rules of NSG because these kind of rules are not directed against any specific country. We must strive for consensus by thinking out of the box," Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying said at a briefing.
> 
> Hua claimed that during the NSG's plenary session in Seoul, China worked together with a couple of other countries to press ahead with the entry of non-NPT states through "creative means".
> 
> "This is also major progress achieved at the plenary session. China has been working positively and constructively to that end," she said.



has china signed NPT before joining NSG ? so the rules alone doesn't seems to be the case. there cant be septate set of rules for china and india for same organization

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## Srinivas

calmDown@all said:


> All NPT non-weapons states must accept these full-scope safeguards. In the five weapons states plus the non-NPT states (India, Pakistan and Israel), facility-specific safeguards apply. IAEA inspectors regularly visit these facilities to verify completeness and accuracy of records.
> 
> The terms of the NPT cannot be enforced by the IAEA itself, nor can nations be forced to sign the treaty. In reality, as shown in Iraq and North Korea, safeguards can be backed up by diplomatic, political and economic measures.
> how can these two things go side by side please someone explain it.........
> @GURU DUTT @Srinivas



How did NSG waiver came only to India?


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## ZAC1

if china is there india is not going to be in NSG,ab tu Russia bi dokha kar gya


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Dawn is the most credible media outlet in South Asia......news regarding Russia's opposition is true. It is hard for Indians, i know but it is true.....Dawn is the most neutral source when it comes to India and if they are saying Russia was also involved in this.....then it is highly likely it is correct.....

The way Indians swarm the comment section of Dawn is the proof there's a lot of fan following of Dawn in India too.

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## calmDown@all

[--Leo--] said:


> Jo dena tha De diya now feel it !  hahahahahha


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## Chinese-Dragon

Irfan Baloch said:


> on the web Indians were taunting and trolling saying China is alone in this opposition
> but I was not expecting Russia.



The Indian members kept claiming China was opposing India "alone" as if that was a bad thing? 

They think we are like India, that we only care about the opinions/approval of foreigners.

But we are the opposite. We only work for our national interests, the opinions of foreigners are irrelevant to our policies.

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## calmDown@all

Srinivas said:


> How did NSG waiver came only to India?


sir.....still above my level...
can you explain?


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Thank U very much, guyz.......... Our two most trusted, reliable and loyal friends......

@Beast @rott @HAKIKAT @KediKesenFare @Sinan

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## cirr

OrionHunter said:


> So what's new? China is in the habit of pissing off a lot of countries by its arrogance - Philippines, Malaysia, India, Vietnam, Japan, Indonesia, Brunei South Korea, Taiwan etc. It has even junked UN treaties like the UNCLOS and encouraged terrorists like Azhar and their terror organizations like the JeM and the LeT by flatly refusing to agree on putting sanctions against them in spite of the overwhelming agreement at the UN. This at the behest of their deeper than ocean friends! Nuff said.
> 
> China clearly is working at a tangent and cares two hoots to the principles and code of international diplomacy and the rule of law.



lolo...this list is simply hilarious.

Yes, Vietnam might have a thing or two against China, but it is still a lot closer to China than India. Check out how many Vietnamese working and living in China first.

As for South Korea, ask the 2 million plus South Koreans who have chosen to permanently settle in China over the last decade or 2.

Taiwan? Taiwan is a part of China. Millions of Taiwanese owns flats and houses in Mainland China.

Maylasia? Are you kidding?

Brunei? One of China's closest buddy in ASEAN.

Even the Phillipines are closer to China than India.

Japan? You are advised to watch Japanese soup operas to get a handle on how Indians are held in the eyes of the Japanese. Ditto South Korean TV dramas in which India is portraited as hell and those who are sent to work in hell are considered being handed death sentence, while working in China is highly sought after. As a matter of fact, most of SK would not return once they have tasted the good life in China.

So...don't get funny.

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## Taimoor Khan

Moving forward, as the report clearly mentioned that India didnt abide by the conditions of 2008 wavier, didnt seperate its civil and military nuclear installations and basically increased its nuke arsenal, the wavier itself should now be undone.

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## dray

[Bregs] said:


> no knee jerk reactions needed from india, this was expected that in this session china wont budge. so deal might be made by next session due in winters some time



No, not knee jerk reactions, but we can certainly put a few Chini investments on hold for process related considerations? We should also strictly impose the BIS standards, as someone already suggested, most Chini products will fail in this. They should know every decision has a cost attached to it. 



GURU DUTT said:


> let me guess what are there exports to india ... chocolettes, expensive watches and of course stage trainer for IAF ... in a way good for indias health wealth and most importantlly HAL



Gold too...in fact that's the primary import I think.

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## neem456

And what is pakistan celebrating for ? Wasn't them also bidding for the membership of NSG ?
Fact that their application was rejected even for discussion while india's was discusssed rigorously for 2 days and garner 47 out of 48 votes, calls for national mourning day for pakistan.


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## [Bregs]

Rain Man said:


> No, not knee jerk reactions, but we can certainly put a few Chini investments on hold for process related considerations? We should also strictly impose the BIS standards, as someone already suggested, most Chini products will fail in this. They should know every decision has a cost attached to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Gold too...in fact that's the primary import I think.



BIS standards for some of there products is must now specially toys and stationery goods

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## dray

OrionHunter said:


> The scheduled financial dialogue in July between India and China should also be cancelled.



No, we should have it to inform them that they now need to climb a higher wall to get into the Indian market.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The Indian members kept claiming China was opposing India "alone" as if that was a bad thing?
> 
> They think we are like India, that we only care about the opinions/approval of foreigners.
> 
> But we are the opposite. We only work for our national interests, the opinions of foreigners are irrelevant to our policies.



China is very serious in having good relations with India. Just look how China helped and wanted India to become member of SCO.......On the other side, Indians are still spewing venom against China i.e chanting boycotting of Chinese goods etc....

When China refuses to support India's bid in NSG, the plan of Indians, in my view, was to engage all other countries except China who were opposing India's bid and make them support India so that they can make China feel guilty and villain that she is single out among all 48 nations and the only one opposing India's bid....psychological warfare, you know.......to tell the world that look how China is isolated and evil and hurting India's interests......Pakistan's application to NSG and support of Turkey, NewZealand, Austria, Brazil, Switzerland has killed India's plan to make villain out of China......
I thank u for supporting our case on merit.......We'll never forget this.......

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## neem456

Taimoor Khan said:


> Moving forward, as the report clearly mentioned that India didnt abide by the conditions of 2008 wavier, didnt seperate its civil and military nuclear installations and basically increased its nuke arsenal, the wavier itself should now be undone.



Good when are you moving against it then, diplomatically ?

If china wishes to do it then it will be similar circus as todays, they will need 48 votes of support. Now you can use your imagination, how many votes china can gather against india ? five, seven ... lol would be lucky to gather even ten

Waiver is till eternity. India will keep enjoying the perks of waiver for ever , thanks to bush and MMS. Rest wil keep watching. ROFL.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Rain Man said:


> No, we should have it to inform them that they now need to climb a higher wall to get into the Indian market.



So basically a Trade War then? 

Since China will of course be forced to retaliate in kind.

And don't worry, even if there is a Trade War, India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available... if they come to the table for a real negotiation...

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## [Bregs]

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So basically a Trade War then?
> 
> Since China will of course be forced to retaliate in kind.
> 
> And don't worry, even if there is a Trade War, India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available... if they come to the table for a real negotiation...



there is going to be some drama before india-china comes around on consensus on this issue

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## volatile

GURU DUTT said:


> as per my news 47 of 48 nations have voted in favour of indian entry then how its a dead end is the decission out on it yet ?
> 
> wait for some time let it come out then we shall talk about it ... OK @HAIDER


i believe that was INDIAN media ,Welll Well Ruskies are back


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## dray

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So basically a Trade War then?
> 
> Since China will of course be forced to retaliate in kind.
> 
> And don't worry, even if there is a Trade War, India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available... if they come to the table for a real negotiation...



Guess who will be the bigger loser in a scenario greatly favouring Chinese businesses.

And we will get every seat we want in the world eventually, China can cause us some inconveniences, and will suffer the consequences.

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## Taimoor Khan

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rt-to-Indias-NSG-bid/articleshow/52897139.cms

*Switzerland takes U-turn on its support to India's NSG bid*


You too, BRUTUS?????

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## GURU DUTT

[Bregs] said:


> there is going to be some drama before india-china comes around on consensus on this issue


aint gonna happen cause china knows NSG ticket means UNSC is next better leave china and work on alternate plan and keep doing buisness as usual as we are already getting every tech from all the developed nations despite NSG

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## OrionHunter

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> I thank u for supporting our case on merit.......We'll never forget this.......


Really? You wanted your deeper than ocean friend to support your membership to the NSG too but they flung the rule book at you telling you to sign the NPT first or there was no way they could support your entry!

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## Srinivas

Russia not supporting India is a rumour spread from across the border !

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> aint gonna happen cause china knows NSG ticket means UNSC is next better leave china and work on alternate plan and keep doing buisness as usual as we are already getting every tech from all the developed nations despite NSG



This whole exercise was for status symbol,lest in doing trade with countries in civil nuclear there is no hindrance at all

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## Zain Malik

GURU DUTT said:


> but then there love for china and hate of india blinds there thinking ... in a way its good for our cause


 You most intelligent person on planet.....???


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## PaklovesTurkiye

OrionHunter said:


> Really? You wanted your deeper than ocean friend to support your membership to the NSG too but they flung the rule book at you telling you to sign the NPT first or there was no way they could support your entry!



This is what i m talking about.......Pakistan will instantly sign NPT if India does that.....Unlike India's case, Pakistan is not asking China to get him enter into NSG without signing NPT.......

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## GURU DUTT

[Bregs] said:


> This whole exercise was for status symbol,lest in doing trade with countries in civil nuclear there is no hindrance at all


swiss are opposed to india entry cause off late Indian diplomats had been doing quite an exercise to bring back black money from swiss accounts and now this will get even more intense and with UK leaving EU lets see what comes out of it infact this episode is a blessing in disguise or say a clever tactic by MEA to expose certain interests and get a back door entry

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## Chinese-Dragon

Rain Man said:


> Guess who will be the bigger loser in a scenario greatly favouring Chinese businesses.
> 
> And we will get every seat we want in the world eventually, China can cause us some inconveniences, and will suffer the consequences.



Alright then, good luck. 

When you come to your senses, eventually you will realize that you won't get free favours from your enemies. You want it, you can pay like everyone else.

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## Max

neem456 said:


> And what is pakistan celebrating for ? Wasn't them also bidding for the membership of NSG ?
> Fact that their application was rejected even for discussion while india's was discusssed rigorously for 2 days and garner 47 out of 48 votes, calls for national mourning day for pakistan.



we just applied this year unlike you who are after it for decade..

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## noksss

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So basically a Trade War then?
> 
> Since China will of course be forced to retaliate in kind.
> 
> And don't worry, even if there is a Trade War, India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available... if they come to the table for a real negotiation...



I am surprised you haven't posted *Korean War (Where china pushed USA + 16 allies and then went to fight soviet )*

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## neem456

Max said:


> we just applied this year unlike you who are after it for decade..



We also applied this year, first attempt.
Anyways, whatever excuses makes you feel better.

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## dray

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Alright then, good luck.
> 
> When you come to your senses, eventually you will realize that you won't get free favours from your enemies. You want it, you can pay like everyone else.



Right, when we won't get free favours from our enemies, why to offer it to them? A more balanced trade comes in handy. I am just talking about ending the trade deficit with China.

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> swiss are opposed to india entry cause off late Indian diplomats had been doing quite an exercise to bring back black money from swiss accounts and now this will get even more intense and with UK leaving EU lets see what comes out of it infact this episode is a blessing in disguise or say a clever tactic by MEA to expose certain interests and get a back door entry



swiss opposition was technical not stubborn like china

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## Taimoor Khan

neem456 said:


> Good when are you moving against it then, diplomatically ?
> 
> If china wishes to do it then it will be similar circus as todays, they will need 48 votes of support. Now you can use your imagination, how many votes china can gather against india ? five, seven ... lol would be lucky to gather even ten
> 
> Waiver is till eternity. India will keep enjoying the perks of waiver for ever , thanks to bush and MMS. Rest wil keep watching. ROFL.




LOL, No actually you should thank Zardari for the 2008 wavier as it was his government that recalled the "letter of objection" by Pakistan which the Beijing was suppose to use as a pretext to put you and Uncle Sam in their place.

One thing at a time, we have already put India and her sugardaddy America in its place with just mere two or three weeks of intense diplomacy. India application was plan sailing into NSG, under radar thanks for yanks TILL we said, "hang on a minute". Its only then the world took notice and had their "OH sh|t" moment.

This is just the start, even Russia and Switzerland backstabbed you lot. Considering China, Russia and Brazil, showing middle finger to India, should be the eye opener. Yanks can only take you so far, dont put your hope too high, otherwise there will be humiliations like this in future as well. You can now effectively kiss your security council membership wet dream goodbye as well.

As for Pakistan, we hardly give monkies to NSG, we just came as spoilers and we did our job rather ruthlessly. As we speak, we have signed and building the same amounts of nuclear reactor as India ever since that so called 2008 wavier. We are getting whatever we want, with or without NSG.

Going forward, if you want NSG memebership, you need to get your act together and seek Islamabad consent first so we can lobby for you in Beijing.

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## GURU DUTT

[Bregs] said:


> swiss opposition was technical not stubborn like china


its always like that but in a way its good now we when going for it again know who to do it right its not end of the world besides it was a status symbol to help in UNSC bidding OK then lets it begin again there is no rule we cant apply again or the world is going to end or we aing gonna get the stuff for which we already made deals with those having that tech

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> its always like that but in a way its good now we when going for it again know who to do it right its not end of the world besides it was a status symbol to help in UNSC bidding OK then lets it begin again there is no rule we cant apply again or the world is going to end or we aing gonna get the stuff for which we already made deals with those having that tech



yeah right, weekend coming so now

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## Max

neem456 said:


> We also applied this year, first attempt.
> Anyways, whatever excuses makes you feel better.



but you are campaigning for it for decades.. Give us a year or two atleast..

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## Taimoor Khan

I have been telling the Indian trolls here to be cautious in their bravado as it is game played on much higher level. They are just the pawns of yanks. India this, India that. bla bla bla bla. Non stop non sense. Now where are you going to hide your shame? back to uncle sam lap?

Moral of the story is: KNOW YOUR TRUE WORTH AND BEHAVE LIKEWISE.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Taimoor Khan said:


> LOL, No actually you should thank Zardari for the 2008 wavier as it was his government that recalled the "letter of objection" by Pakistan which the Beijing was suppose to use as a pretext to put you and Uncle Sam in their place.
> 
> One thing at a time, we have already put India and her sugardaddy America in its place with just mere two or three weeks of intense diplomacy. India application was plan sailing into NSG, under radar thanks for yanks TILL we said, "hang on a minute". Its only then the world took notice and had their "OH sh|t" moment.
> 
> This is just the start, even Russia and Switzerland backstabbed you lot. Considering China, Russia and Brazil, showing middle finger to India, should be the eye opener. Yanks can only take you so far, dont put your hope too high, otherwise there will be humiliations like this in future as well. You can now effectively kiss your security council membership wet dream goodbye as well.
> 
> As for Pakistan, we hardly give monkies to NSG, we just came as spoilers and we did our job rather ruthlessly. As we speak, we have signed and building the same amounts of nuclear reactor as India ever since that so called 2008 wavier. We are getting whatever we want, with or without NSG.
> 
> Going forward, if you want NSG memebership, you need to get your act together and seek Islamabad consent first so we can lobby for you in Beijing.



What a brief yet summarized write up!!!

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## Chinese-Dragon

India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...

IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation. 

------------------------------

*Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*

Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.

Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.

But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.

For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?

You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.

Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.

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## Taimoor Khan

On a separate yet more important issue:

Where does it lead the Yanks and their reputation after this NSG saga? Those letters Kerry was sending to the NSG memeber to support India? I guess they were send into the shredder!

With UK leaving Euro, France and Germany will be on their own. They simply cannot afford to toe the American lines anymore. They need to develop their own independent forigen policy and be neutral in this now very apparent bipolar world. By toeing American line in this NSG meeting, the egg is on their face as well.

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## Imran Khan

yeah but at that time no one want to be member of UN and NSG ?


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## [Bregs]

First of all there is no question of india even discussing seriously CISMOA, regarding LSA its toned down version india agreed to but even this lighter version has not been signed yet. so all this is publicity that india signed both these

china itself look what it has been doing in UN shielding terrorists,

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## Imran Khan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how vetoes work.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.


now the question is what china need in return ?FTA ?


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## 21 Dec 2012

Interesting. 
India shall accept Chinese suzerainty and pay annual tribute in exchange for NSG/UNSC table. 

Or else.......
@BuddhaPalm @HongWu002

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## neem456

Taimoor Khan said:


> LOL, No actually you should thank Zardari for the 2008 wavier as it was his government that recalled the "letter of objection" by Pakistan which the Beijing was suppose to use as a pretext to put you and Uncle Sam in their place.


Rather china and pakistan was put in its place. lol
How you wish it was other way around.



Taimoor Khan said:


> One thing at a time, we have already put India and her sugardaddy America in its place with just mere two or three weeks of intense diplomacy. India application was plan sailing into NSG, under radar thanks for yanks TILL we said, "hang on a minute". Its only then the world took notice and had their "OH sh|t" moment.


Rather its a win for USA as expected, they have exposed china naked in front of india . Further i will let time unfold the rest of the story, coz interesting sets of events are to be followed which will impact the bilateral relations of india an china.
And pakistan ,well they were once again shown their place when their application was not even considered for discussion, what a embarrassment.




Taimoor Khan said:


> This is just the start, even Russia and Switzerland backstabbed you lot. Considering China, Russia and Brazil, showing middle finger to India, should be the eye opener. Yanks can only take you so far, dont put your hope too high, otherwise there will be humiliations like this in future as well. You can now effectively kiss your security council membership wet dream goodbye as well.



That is pakistani media reporting, meant to be taken with bucket of salt.
Russia is taking the benefit of waiver and on the way to complete their plant in tamil nadu. Only stupid will believe that russia voted against their own interest and invesments.



Taimoor Khan said:


> As for Pakistan, we hardly give monkies to NSG, we just came as spoilers and we did our job rather ruthlessly. As we speak, we have signed and building the same amounts of nuclear reactor as India ever since that so called 2008 wavier. We are getting whatever we want, with or without NSG.


SPOILERS, Exactly !.
Well, thanks for admission, that is all you have achieved and your relevance is after so many years of independence. Spoiler for india, otherwise no one would take you seriously.


Taimoor Khan said:


> Going forward, if you want NSG memebership, you need to get your act together and seek Islamabad consent first so we can lobby for you in Beijing.



We already got MCTR, we got NSG waiver, we are banging UN doors, will get NSG in future eventually.
You can only keep waiting for india to consult pakistan on anything, like you did in 2008. lol

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## GURU DUTT

Taimoor Khan said:


> On a separate yet more important issue:
> 
> Where does it lead the Yanks and their reputation after this NSG saga?
> 
> With UK leaving Euro, France and Germany will be on their own. They simply cannot afford to toe the American lines anymore. They need to develop their own independent forigen policy and be neutral in this now very apparent bipolar world. By toeing American line in this NSG meeting, the egg is on their face as well.


its all about mutual trade and economic benefits more than anything else as niether the russian nor the chinese will ever let western european nations or there industries get benfits and will always try to harm them hence all western nations including UK and even turkey cannot leave USA 

but even if you leave it out tell me whats your most important exports and to which nations can you let it go just like that

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## Chinese-Dragon

Imran Khan said:


> now the question is what china need in return ?FTA ?



Haha do you think India will sign an FTA, I think they would rather be vetoed. Even though an FTA is nothing in comparison to CISMOA/LSA.



[Bregs] said:


> First of all there is no question of india even discussing seriously CISMOA, regarding LSA its toned down version india agreed to but even this lighter version has not been signed yet. so all this is publicity that india signed both these
> 
> china itself look what it has been doing in UN shielding terrorists,



Well, you paid so much to USA for their NSG support (which they failed to deliver) yet you expect free favours from us, an "enemy" country?

Do you believe that you can get our support for free... and you didn't need to give anything in return? Do you think the world works like that?

Next time you buy something from a shop, try refusing to pay for it?

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## neem456

Max said:


> but you are campaigning for it for decades.. Give us a year or two atleast..



Why two ? You have all the years you want sir.
But remember to apply your bid independently whenever you want? You are a independent nation for god sake, how long you will need indias finger to enter into such clubs.

And we will not even oppose your bid the way you did our FM have already said that on record. You prove your merit to NSG and we are fine with it.


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## Sheikh Rauf

Oops... we ll know when india is in pain they play dirty game in Karachi...
In few days since this NSG started we had doctors army men police sabri got killed and 3 fires at same time exactily 300 people died after bombay incident...
India wont get any where till he fullfill its promise on Kashmir.. either it goes with Pak or seprate from both..or keep 700 thousand army there till the dooms day.


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## OrionHunter

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> This is what i m talking about.......Pakistan will instantly sign NPT if India does that.....
> 
> *Unlike India's case, Pakistan is not asking China to get him enter into NSG without signing NPT.......*


Huh? But Pakistan desperately wants membership of the NSG too. Read this....

*Pakistan asks US to support its NSG bid*

Pakistan has formally asked the US administration and Congress to support its application for joining the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).

Pakistan submitted a formal application in Vienna last month, expressing its desire to join the group. But the US administration and Congress are both unwilling to support Pakistan.

In a letter to the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Pakistan’s Ambassador Jalil Abbas Jilani reminded Congress that Pakistan had taken a series of steps that qualify it for joining the NSG.

Pakistan submitted a formal application in Vienna last month, expressing its desire to join the group. But the US administration and Congress are both unwilling to support Pakistan.

*The letter, shared with Dawn, expresses Pakistan’s willingness to accept the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards on all foreign supplied nuclear reactors and nuclear materials similar to the current IAEA safeguards in place on all of Pakistan’s civilian nuclear facilities.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1263664
*
Nowhere has Pakistan mentioned anything about its readiness to sign the NPT first. Pakistan just wants to gatecrash into the exclusive club notwithstanding it's proliferation credentials. AQ Khan and his escapades will probably haunt you till kingdom come!

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## Gibbs

Massive diplomatic defeat for India.. How much some Indian posters here try to save face citing the bilateral waiver with individual countries, This will have a deep impact on the Modi government especially when India wants to be seen as a major global player.. The Indian PM's office and Mr. Modi himself personally made a huge diplomatic effort in to this, Campaigning not only for it's admittance but also in a bid to alienate China somewhat, Sure the US and some of it's western allies used the bid to prop up India against China for their own regional interests, But in all honestly India came out of this all battered and bruised.. And seems like a number of countries indeed changed it's stance even after assuring India and PM Modi of their support..

Indians need to realize the exclusive clubs like the NSG and the UNSC P5, Doesn't really open doors for outsiders.. Especially when veto powers are involved

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## Alpha BeeTee

The 56 inch has brought unneccessary embarrassment and pressure on India.
By making the NSG and by extension UNSC a matter of life and death,India has successfully put China in a place where the latter can exploit and capitalize the former economically and keep on using the 'all weather friendship' card untill desired results are obtained.

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## GURU DUTT

OrionHunter said:


> Huh? But Pakistan desperately wants membership of the NSG too. Read this....
> 
> *Pakistan asks US to support its NSG bid*
> 
> Pakistan has formally asked the US administration and Congress to support its application for joining the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).
> 
> Pakistan submitted a formal application in Vienna last month, expressing its desire to join the group. But the US administration and Congress are both unwilling to support Pakistan.
> 
> In a letter to the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Pakistan’s Ambassador Jalil Abbas Jilani reminded Congress that Pakistan had taken a series of steps that qualify it for joining the NSG.
> 
> Pakistan submitted a formal application in Vienna last month, expressing its desire to join the group. But the US administration and Congress are both unwilling to support Pakistan.
> 
> *The letter, shared with Dawn, expresses Pakistan’s willingness to accept the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards on all foreign supplied nuclear reactors and nuclear materials similar to the current IAEA safeguards in place on all of Pakistan’s civilian nuclear facilities.
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1263664
> *
> Nowhere has Pakistan mentioned anything about its readiness to sign the NPT first. Pakistan just wants to gatecrash into the exclusive club notwithstanding it's proliferation credentials. AQ Khan and his escapades will probably haunt you till kingdom come!


in short they are more happy by indias misfortune than being worried and sad about there own misery .... if you know what i mean

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## Srinivas

Those are all done by ISI, they started an operation in Sindh !



Sheikh Rauf said:


> Oops... we ll know when india is in pain they play dirty game in Karachi...
> In few days since this NSG started we had doctors army men police sabri got killed and 3 fires at same time exactily 300 people died after bombay incident...
> India wont get any where till he fullfill its promise on Kashmir.. either it goes with Pak or seprate from both..or keep 700 thousand army there till the dooms day.


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## Director General

@Imran Khan @ZAC1 @Irfan Baloch @BetterPakistan @Taimoor Khan @HAIDER @PaklovesTurkiye 

The News regarding Russia blocking Turkey are completely false:<br>
<br>
Just 30 minutes back PM Modi thanked Putin himself for supporting India at NSG.<br>
<br>

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746307254685622273

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746206664517312512

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746209915660689409

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## Imran Khan

Director General said:


> @Imran Khan @ZAC1 @Irfan Baloch @BetterPakistan @taimoorkhan @HAIDER @paklovesturkiye<br>
> <br>
> The News regarding Russia blocking Turkey are completely false:<br>
> <br>
> Just 30 minutes back PM Modi thanked Putin himself for supporting India at NSG.<br>
> <br>
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746307254685622273


good for both

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## Srinivas

The attitude of CCP needs to change, I doubt the insecure CCP who thinks one decade economic revolution is enough to rule the world has some issues in this regard.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.

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## Sheikh Rauf

Srinivas said:


> Those are all done by ISI, they started an operation in Sindh !



Obsessed indian with ISI trolling becomming indian nations habbit..
Its state of Pak who started this operation..


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## PaklovesTurkiye

OrionHunter said:


> Huh? But Pakistan desperately wants membership of the NSG too. Read this....
> 
> *Pakistan asks US to support its NSG bid*
> 
> Pakistan has formally asked the US administration and Congress to support its application for joining the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).
> 
> Pakistan submitted a formal application in Vienna last month, expressing its desire to join the group. But the US administration and Congress are both unwilling to support Pakistan.
> 
> In a letter to the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Pakistan’s Ambassador Jalil Abbas Jilani reminded Congress that Pakistan had taken a series of steps that qualify it for joining the NSG.
> 
> Pakistan submitted a formal application in Vienna last month, expressing its desire to join the group. But the US administration and Congress are both unwilling to support Pakistan.
> 
> *The letter, shared with Dawn, expresses Pakistan’s willingness to accept the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards on all foreign supplied nuclear reactors and nuclear materials similar to the current IAEA safeguards in place on all of Pakistan’s civilian nuclear facilities.
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1263664
> *
> Nowhere has Pakistan mentioned anything about its readiness to sign the NPT first. Pakistan just wants to gatecrash into the exclusive club notwithstanding it's proliferation credentials. AQ Khan and his escapades will probably haunt you till kingdom come!



AQ Khan scandal (I don't know much about it) can't be the hurdle for too long in Pakistan's entry into NSG. West is no angel....Every hand is dirty in this arena.....

May be we engaged US so that we can see US reaction on our application? Like if India can get support from US despite NOT signing NSG, we too can? I m definitely not among the one who sit in Islamabad but Pakistan and US do put others in embarrassing situation sometimes to settle score. Remember there was a news regarding Pakistan's entry into NSG if Pakistan slows down its nukes arsenal??? Nuclear deal with US? So, who knows what is cooking out there?

http://www.dawn.com/news/1211598

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## shah1398

HAIDER said:


> China, *Russia*, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey.


What? Russia??? Still cant believe it but if the case is so then its classic example of:

*Et tu, Brute?...aka Brutus U too*???

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## OrionHunter

shah1398 said:


> What? Russia??? Still cant believe it but if the case is so then its classic example of:
> 
> *Et tu, Brute?...aka Brutus U too*???


Nope!! *That's brute misinformation! *Russia was the first to support India.

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## Ahud Khan

I think India paid alot because of uneducated Modi, the failure is not of India but is of Modi

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## neem456

Well, let the diplomats of China and India negotiate and figure it out.
Why do you worry when your opinion does not make any difference to the real world.
We can discuss what policy our policy maker, not make policies here.

We are here to discuss what happens in the world, not to plan what to do to this world.

So relax and take a chill pill.


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## GURU DUTT

OrionHunter said:


> Nope!! *That's brute misinformation! *Russia was the first to support India.


all those who thout russia dint support indias bit for NSG

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## Perpendicular

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746306693051473920
Something we need to focus on. Deeper pockets and bigger stick. 
The great game is indeed on.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Director General said:


> @Imran Khan @ZAC1 @Irfan Baloch @BetterPakistan @taimoorkhan @HAIDER @paklovesturkiye<br>
> <br>
> The News regarding Russia blocking Turkey are completely false:<br>
> <br>
> Just 30 minutes back PM Modi thanked Putin himself for supporting India at NSG.<br>
> <br>
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746307254685622273



But Dawn (a very credible media outlet) is saying otherwise....We are also surprised at this news.....The news source you are quoting doesn't seems to be authentic......may be part of PM Modi's P.R or hired team to spread misinformation and propaganda to brainwash and make Indians delusional about themselves. 

The day you guys signed Logistics agreement with US, was the day u slapped Russia on her face. There's a high possibility China did some magic behind the screen to get russia's support.


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## Max

neem456 said:


> Why two ? You have all the years you want sir.
> But remember to apply your bid independently whenever you want? You are a independent nation for god sake, how long you will need indias finger to enter into such clubs.
> 
> And we will not even oppose your bid the way you did our FM have already said that on record. You prove your merit to NSG and we are fine with it.



We are not against India's bid, we are against discrimination and special concessions.. Just prove ur cridentials, dont try to gain memberships by allowing uncle sam to hug bharat mata from behind...


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## shah1398

OrionHunter said:


> Nope!! *That's brute misinformation! *Russia was the first to support India.



Should have been the case. Its totally illogical to even think of thinking that Russia will oppose India...atleast in current scenario.

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## neem456

Gibbs said:


> Massive diplomatic defeat for India.. How much some Indian posters here try to save face citing the bilateral waiver with individual countries, This will have a deep impact on the Modi government especially when India wants to be seen as a major global player.. The Indian PM's office and Mr. Modi himself personally made a huge diplomatic effort in to this, Campaigning not only for it's admittance but also in a bid to alienate China somewhat, Sure the US and some of it's western allies used the bid to prop up India against China for their own regional interests, But in all honestly India came out of this all battered and bruised.. And seems like a number of countries indeed changed it's stance even after assuring India and PM Modi of their support..
> 
> Indians need to realize the exclusive clubs like the NSG and the UNSC P5, Doesn't really open doors for outsiders.. Especially when veto powers are involved



Whatever efforts modi has taken are appreciated by we indians. We dont hold modi responsible for todays defeat given the herculean nature of the task.
So no mtter whateve spin you are trying to make here, my vote and many indians will go for modi for this effort.


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## Chinese-Dragon

neem456 said:


> Well, let the diplomats of China and India negotiate and figure it out.
> Why do you worry when your opinion does not make any difference to the real world.
> We can discuss what policy our policy maker, not make policies here.
> 
> We are here to discuss what happens in the world, not to plan what to do to this world.
> 
> So relax and take a chill pill.



Looks like you overestimated America. 

From yesterday:



neem456 said:


> *US made the rule, hence they break it as well.
> 
> Superpower will make and break the rules, while China will just have to fall in line, like they did in 2008.*



So basically you sold your sovereignty to the USA by signing CISMOA/LSA, but they didn't even fulfill their end of the deal by getting you an NSG seat? 

That's rough.

But don't worry. Game is not over yet. The NSG and UNSC seats are still up for grabs.

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## cloud_9

On to the next round!


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## jaunty

It is only a matter of time before we get it.


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## Perpendicular

Do you respect your mother ?


Max said:


> hug bharat mata from behind...


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## Max

Perpendicular said:


> Do you respect your mother ?



more then scums who killed 6 sons of innocent mothers just today in fake encounters..

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## Tiqiu

Rain Man said:


> Right, when we won't get free favours from our enemies, why to offer it to them? A more balanced trade comes in handy. I am just talking about ending the trade deficit with China.


It won't happen in a foreseeable future. Since the beginning of this century, China has almost bought all your exported iron ore. In 2008 when the iron ore price was peaked at U$140 per ton, China paid more than 10 billion U$ annually for your iron ore alone, which helped to keep the trade deficit under check. Nowadays, after your GOA export ban, especially with the commodity prices are at its historic low, many countries are lining up to supply iron ore to China. Also for your another big export earner to China like copper and cotton, the prices are determined by Chinese Shanghai Futures Exchange and Darlian Commodity Exchange. India has a little leverage in the pricing.

Of course you can try to shrink the deficit by buying less China-made goods. But you need to find a substitute first.

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## OrionHunter

cloud_9 said:


> On to the next round!


Hmm.....How many more rounds? We got KO'ed in the first round itself!! Lol!



Jeeez!


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## Director General

Indian media Is far more credible than Pakistan media.
India is ranked 133 in press freedom index whereas Pakistan is a huge 14 ranks behind at 147.
BTW the statement of PM Modi thanking Russia for support at NSG is issued by the Ministry of External Affairs itself


PaklovesTurkiye said:


> But Dawn (a very credible media outlet) is saying otherwise....We are also surprised at this news.....The news source you are quoting doesn't seems to be authentic......may be part of PM Modi's P.R or hired team to spread misinformation and propaganda to brainwash and make Indians delusional about themselves.
> 
> The day you guys signed Logistics agreement with US, was the day u slapped Russia on her face. There's a high possibility China did some magic behind the screen to get russia's support.


----------



## jaunty

Gibbs said:


> Massive diplomatic defeat for India.. How much some Indian posters here try to save face citing the bilateral waiver with individual countries, This will have a deep impact on the Modi government especially when India wants to be seen as a major global player.. The Indian PM's office and Mr. Modi himself personally made a huge diplomatic effort in to this, Campaigning not only for it's admittance but also in a bid to alienate China somewhat, Sure the US and some of it's western allies used the bid to prop up India against China for their own regional interests, But in all honestly India came out of this all battered and bruised.. And seems like a number of countries indeed changed it's stance even after assuring India and PM Modi of their support..
> 
> Indians need to realize the exclusive clubs like the NSG and the UNSC P5, Doesn't really open doors for outsiders.. Especially when veto powers are involved



I won't call it a huge diplomatic defeat for the govt given that they managed to convince at least 90% of the member states and soften others like China. But it is definitely a setback, a reminder for fanboys (although I doubt they'd understand) that diplomacy is way more complex than chest-thumping. I liked the Manmohan Singh approach better, managed to quietly get a unanimous NSG waiver without scoring points in the media.

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## Quibbler

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.



"In international relations there are no friends or foes just national interests". This line has been used by yourself countless times and still you use terms like this for China and USA so losely. Foreign relations are not built in a day nor are the great games played over a meeting, they span decades. You naively call USA our friend and China our enemy. 

Foreign policy is not defined by win or loose matches (eg this NSG meet) as portrayed by the media or as conceived by most PDF members. It is not even defined by prestige. You might not like India's steps recently very much but i think you should recognize that India's foreign policy is independent, stable and mature(however maybe a little less experienced). 

India has had a long mistrust of USA and that continues. The only thing India is doing is to position itself(CISMOA/LSA) to maximize benefits. Talking of UNSC or even NSG membership would have been a distant dream if India had taken a neutral stand. If you go through these agreements, they are barely binding and are more on case to case basis and mutual understanding. The only things that these agreements do is give India and USA relation the agility to pivot quickly. There is no toll on India sovereignty.

Going forward i think Indian foreign policy will take a flat blade approach. Economic ties will actually be increased. Investment will be opened up, thus giving China a stake in the India economy. But market barriers will still remain. However international cooperation will take a beating and more overt opposition by India in forums like BRICS, BASICS, NDB, and even AIIB will become more visible.


Personal Note- I have been following your posts for last 5 years. One of the few posters i make sure to read. Thanks buddy for making this forum worthwhile.

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## Director General

@PaklovesTurkiye @Taimoor Khan @HAIDER


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## Mufflerman

If New Delhi has the balls, we should do the following.

1) De-recognise One China. Declare Tibet, inner Mongolia and Xinjiang as territories under occupation. Recognise Tibetan Government under exile as official Government of Tibet. Open Tibetan embassy. Open Taiwanese embassy.
2) Form a NATO like alliance with Japan, Australia and Vietnam as founding members with open agenda of containing China. Offer these nations nuclear umbrella against China. Open naval bases in Cam Rann Bay and Parcel and Spartley island.
3) Get out of Brics and all other nonsense organisations
4) Ban all electronics imports from China. If companies want to do business with the second largest electronics consumer in the world, they have to manufacture locally.
5) Start parallel nuclear commerce groups with the West, Japan and other nuclear tech/mineral rich economies.

UN is already an impotent group so nothing to gain there.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Mufflerman said:


> If New Delhi has the balls, we should do the following.
> 
> 1) De-recognise One China. Declare Tibet, inner Mongolia and Xinjiang as territories under occupation. Recognise Tibetan Government under exile as official Government of Tibet. Open Tibetan embassy. Open Taiwanese embassy.
> 2) Form a NATO like alliance with Japan, Australia and Vietnam as founding members with open agenda of containing China. Offer these nations nuclear umbrella against China. Open naval bases in Cam Rann Bay and Parcel and Spartley island.
> 3) Get out of Brics and all other nonsense organisations
> 4) Ban all electronics imports from China. If companies want to do business with the second largest electronics consumer in the world, they have to manufacture locally.
> 5) Start parallel nuclear commerce groups with the West, Japan and other nuclear tech/mineral rich economies.
> 
> UN is already an impotent group so nothing to gain there.



That's actually a good post.

Unfortunately India just joined the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organisation) and pissed off America by doing so.

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## bolo

Mufflerman said:


> If New Delhi has the balls, we should do the following.
> 
> 1) De-recognise One China. Declare Tibet, inner Mongolia and Xinjiang as territories under occupation. Recognise Tibetan Government under exile as official Government of Tibet. Open Tibetan embassy. Open Taiwanese embassy.
> 2) Form a NATO like alliance with Japan, Australia and Vietnam as founding members with open agenda of containing China. Offer these nations nuclear umbrella against China. Open naval bases in Cam Rann Bay and Parcel and Spartley island.
> 3) Get out of Brics and all other nonsense organisations
> 4) Ban all electronics imports from China. If companies want to do business with the second largest electronics consumer in the world, they have to manufacture locally.
> 5) Start parallel nuclear commerce groups with the West, Japan and other nuclear tech/mineral rich economies.
> 
> UN is already an impotent group so nothing to gain there.

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## Imran Khan

anyhow pakistani FO have victory this time by creating useless hype on this issue and dragged india down  not for us not for you

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## Mufflerman

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's actually a good post.
> 
> Unfortunately India just joined the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organisation) and pissed off America by doing so.


I know. We think with our feet when it comes to geopolitics. We still think China will be our 'friend' despite China nuclearizing Pakistan.


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## Imran Khan

Mufflerman said:


> If New Delhi has the balls, we should do the following.
> 
> 1) De-recognise One China. Declare Tibet, inner Mongolia and Xinjiang as territories under occupation. Recognise Tibetan Government under exile as official Government of Tibet. Open Tibetan embassy. Open Taiwanese embassy.
> 2) Form a NATO like alliance with Japan, Australia and Vietnam as founding members with open agenda of containing China. Offer these nations nuclear umbrella against China. Open naval bases in Cam Rann Bay and Parcel and Spartley island.
> 3) Get out of Brics and all other nonsense organisations
> 4) Ban all electronics imports from China. If companies want to do business with the second largest electronics consumer in the world, they have to manufacture locally.
> 5) Start parallel nuclear commerce groups with the West, Japan and other nuclear tech/mineral rich economies.
> 
> UN is already an impotent group so nothing to gain there.


man just for NSG all this ?


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## MilSpec

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Looks like you overestimated your dad.
> .


How about refraining from insulting nationalities.

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## Chinese-Dragon

MilSpec said:


> How about refraining from insulting nationalities.



I have no problem with any country at all. Why would I?

Just surprised at how they thought America was so powerful that they could even overwrite veto power. Despite common sense telling them otherwise.

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## pher

This is a awakening call for that hubris modi guy. when you want to become a pawn of US, China will punish you while America couldn't save you.

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## MilSpec

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I have no problem with any country at all. Why would I?
> 
> Just surprised at how they thought America was so powerful that they could even overwrite veto power. Despite common sense telling them otherwise.



You can keep vetoing India, and keep propping up Pakistan. It will for sure bring positive development in Indo-china relations.

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## Mufflerman

The rest of the world have taken note of China's Achilles heel. Will be fun to watch geopolitical progress and how CCP copes with it

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## Gibbs

jaunty said:


> I won't call it a huge diplomatic defeat for the govt given that they managed to convince at least 90% of the member states and soften others like China. But it is definitely a setback, a reminder for fanboys (although I doubt they'd understand) that diplomacy is way more complex than chest-thumping. I liked the Manmohan Singh approach better, managed to quietly get a unanimous NSG waiver without scoring points in the media.



Agreed on most points except i consider this a diplomatic defeat for the Indian establishment, Especially given the enormous effort that was put both by the diplomat's but personally the PM himself, He personally campaigned for this, And was even ready to concede to the admittance of Pakistan concurrently.. So you can see the importance the GOI put in to this 

I think Indian media and analysts should reign in a little bit on the rhetoric, They give the general public unrealistic expectations, As you said diplomacy is indeed complex, Something most posters here have little idea of

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## Chinese-Dragon

MilSpec said:


> You can keep vetoing India, and keep propping up Pakistan. It will for sure bring positive development in Indo-china relations.



That's the whole point of my OP. It's not like China and India were friends to start with, only when India wanted something from us (NSG/UNSC seats).

And sure, if you want something you can have it. But since we are not friends, don't expect it for free.

(Edited my previous post after your complaint, btw.)

@Rain Man how goes the preparations for cutting off trade ties with China?

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## BetterPakistan

Director General said:


> @Imran Khan @ZAC1 @Irfan Baloch @BetterPakistan @Taimoor Khan @HAIDER @PaklovesTurkiye
> 
> The News regarding Russia blocking Turkey are completely false:<br>
> <br>
> Just 30 minutes back PM Modi thanked Putin himself for supporting India at NSG.<br>
> <br>
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746307254685622273
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746206664517312512
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746209915660689409




Good decision to not include India because I feel non NPT signatories shouldn't be allowed to become member.



neem456 said:


> Even the puny nations of central asia and souther america went against china, let alone the super power russia, which is ally of india to begin with.
> 
> Goes to show the mental condition of pakistani media and its followers when russia alone is the bigget benefactor of NSG waiver and is the only country who is in the advanced stage of completing the nuclear plant in kundankulam, tamil nadu, ahed of french, americans etc, and then they will vote against india ? Even a newbie will torpadoe such a reporting. Very poor.



I can understand what you are suffering from. My condolences are with you.

Russia isn't the superpower and it can't become superpower ever. Russian economy is shrinking nowadays and how can you make it a superpower? Multiple countries opposed indian inclusion


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## Mufflerman

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's the whole point of my OP. It's not like China and India were friends to start with, only when India wanted something from us (NSG/UNSC seats).
> 
> And sure, if you want something you can have it. But since we are not friends, don't expect it for free.
> 
> @Rain Man how goes the preparations for cutting off trade ties with China?


Lol. India wanted something from you? Please stop gratifying yourself. 
If anything, the rest of the world just noticed your fear of a rising India. Please, by all means, stay in denial.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's the whole point of my OP. It's not like China and India were friends to start with, only when India wanted something from us (NSG/UNSC seats).
> 
> And sure, if you want something you can have it. But since we are not friends, don't expect it for free.
> 
> @Rain Man how goes the preparations for cutting off trade ties with China?


Lol. India wanted something from you? Please stop gratifying yourself. 
If anything, the rest of the world just noticed your fear of a rising India. Please, by all means, stay in denial.

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## Guynextdoor2

HAIDER said:


> As i speculated before , Russia will not go against China..........Russia opposition biggest blow for India and big surprise .



Lol!



Gibbs said:


> Agreed on most points except i consider this a diplomatic defeat for the Indian establishment, Especially given the enormous effort that was put both by the diplomat's but personally the PM himself, He personally campaigned for this, And was even ready to concede to the admittance of Pakistan concurrently.. So you can see the importance the GOI put in to this
> 
> I think Indian media and analysts should reign in a little bit on the rhetoric, They give the general public unrealistic expectations, As you said diplomacy is indeed complex, Something most posters here have little idea of



You think Indian establishment did not know china's opposition? They decided to make one coordinated effort. They'll be back again. Like I said UNSC is a 15 year project and there will be several reverses along the way.

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## neem456

BetterPakistan said:


> Good decision to not include India because I feel non NPT signatories shouldn't be allowed to become member.
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand what you are suffering from. My condolences are with you.
> 
> Russia isn't the superpower and it can't become superpower ever. Russian economy is shrinking nowadays and how can you make it a superpower? Multiple countries opposed indian inclusion



I dont think russia needs any certificates from you, about its power status.
There military clout speaks for itself.

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## BetterPakistan

neem456 said:


> I dont think russia needs any certificates from you, about its power status.
> There military clout speaks for itself.



 military clout don't make any nation superpower. Better enhance your knowledge instead of trolling


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## TejasMk3

Perpendicular said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746306693051473920
> Something we need to focus on. Deeper pockets and bigger stick.
> The great game is indeed on.


I think the govt knows this, it will take more time and power, and also a bit of challenging the existing powers. But you got to start lobbying before hand, doors are never opened instantly on the first knock.


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## Taimoor Khan

neem456 said:


> Rather china and pakistan was put in its place. lol
> How you wish it was other way around.



Educate yourself, it was Pakistan "goodwill" back in 2008 by Zardari "regime" which allowed you the wavier. Its a fact, you can think otherwise all you like. lol



neem456 said:


> Rather its a win for USA as expected, they have exposed china naked in front of india . Further i will let time unfold the rest of the story, coz interesting sets of events are to be followed which will impact the bilateral relations of india an china.
> And pakistan ,well they were once again shown their place when their application was not even considered for discussion, what a embarrassment.



HAHAHA. Exposed China? Hear me loud and clear, no one gives flying F to China getting exposed. You will crawl back to them for their products and markets. Your PM will be begging them for favours ,rolling red carpts for them and they will keep on humilating you sending their soldiers on your controlled territory. Do you Indians have no shame? 

As I said, we dont give monkies to NSG, we are getting whatever we want with or without NSG. Our application was there as a last resort to cover all eventualities to put American design in check. You can tell how serious we were for NSG that we just applied like a month ago where India has been doing all the donkey work for years only to be humilated like a begger on the door which slammed on its face. Enjoy!!



neem456 said:


> That is pakistani media reporting, meant to be taken with bucket of salt.
> Russia is taking the benefit of waiver and on the way to complete their plant in tamil nadu. Only stupid will believe that russia voted against their own interest and invesments.



Your hyper active nationalistic media, the likes of Arnab Goswame and his ilk are in the state of shock at the moment, they will come to their sense pretty soon. They are still reporting that only China was opposing India and rest of 47 were supporting India with smile on their face. ROFL.



neem456 said:


> SPOILERS, Exactly !.
> Well, thanks for admission, that is all you have achieved and your relevance is after so many years of independence. Spoiler for india, otherwise no one would take you seriously.



Ofcourse, why not. We consider you as our main adversary and weak India is in the benefit of Pakistan infact our national security is more secure with subdued India. You lot however had your honeymoon period after 9/11 when governments in Pakistan that followed kept a mild and friendly attitude towards you but times have changed now. This new Pakistani establishment is no mood to let you off the hook. Brace yourself for further tighten of noose. 



neem456 said:


> We already got MCTR, we got NSG waiver, we are banging UN doors, will get NSG in future eventually.
> You can only keep waiting for india to consult pakistan on anything, like you did in 2008. lol



MCTR was the pre-requsite for NSG and now no show on NSG means nadda. I am not sure what it will give you by signing on MCTR. Its a missile export control regime. It doesnt change any equation as far as Pakistan is concerned. And yea keep on banging your head against UN as well, those who put you out of your misery in NSG will be there as well with VETO powers. And for the NSG waiver, the following read from your own sources is of great insight:

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lea...with-the-nsg/article8765312.ece?homepage=true

"One of these changes, though, made a crucial difference to our waiver, which *“provided that transfers of sensitive exports remain subject to paragraphs 6 and 7 of Guidelines”*. In 2011, before the other amendments were adopted, Paragraph 6 was revised to *prohibit trade in enrichment and reprocessing with any country that has not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), which means that no NSG member can cooperate in these areas with India*. *Exactly as the NSG was set up to target India after its 1974 test, this amendment was introduced by NPT evangelists to target India after the 2008 waiver, which they could not thwart. We seem to have accepted this as a fait accompli.*"

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## dray

jaunty said:


> I won't call it a huge diplomatic defeat for the govt given that they managed to convince at least 90% of the member states and soften others like China. But it is definitely a setback, a reminder for fanboys (although I doubt they'd understand) that diplomacy is way more complex than chest-thumping. I liked the Manmohan Singh approach better, managed to quietly get a unanimous NSG waiver without scoring points in the media.



I think you are missing the forest for the woods. How many even thought that we will walk away with the NSG membership today itself? But we have gone a great deal ahead...Chinese fanboys don't understand that China cannot block our entry indefinitely just because all members' consent is required, it's too complex for China also.


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## Taimoor Khan

GURU DUTT said:


> its all about mutual trade and economic benefits more than anything else as niether the russian nor the chinese will ever let western european nations or there industries get benfits and will always try to harm them hence all western nations including UK and even turkey cannot leave USA
> 
> but even if you leave it out tell me whats your most important exports and to which nations can you let it go just like that



UK has already left Euro despite Obama begging them not to. Who knows, but the future of EU itself is in smoke at the moment. States are only looking after their own interests these days. The blind following of yanks is slowly and gradually becoming questionable. You Indians in your honeymoon with Uncle Sam are overestimating yanks. Times have changed. 

Our exports to certain nations doesnt stop us to do what we need to do for our national interests. The congressmen keep on bitching about Pakistan yet we give them two finger salute, and yet that is not effecting our exports does it? 

Thing is, we mint yanks when they were at their prime, you lot joined as a after thought on this American bandwagon, and as a matter or pure luck or shall I say brilliant foresight, we build strong strategic partnership with Chinese at the time when they were discarded by rest of the world as drug addicts, and now they are the movers and shakers in world affairs. So yea we are doing pretty ok. 

Question is, putting all your eggs in the sun which setting on the horizon, going forward, would we take it as masterstroke or planing stupidity? 

Today of all days, for some reason, I am thinking about Late Gen Hameed Gul and his words.

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## ]_. 0 ]< ! 3*



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## GURU DUTT

Taimoor Khan said:


> UK has already left Euro despite Obama begging them not to. Who knows, but the future of EU itself is in smoke at the moment. States are only looking after their own interests these days. The blind following of yanks is slowly and gradually becoming questionable. You Indians in your honeymoon with Uncle Sam are overestimating yanks. Times have changed.
> 
> Our exports to certain nations doesnt stop us to do what we need to do for our national interests. The congressmen keep on bitching about Pakistan yet we give them two finger salute, and yet that is not effecting our exports does it?
> 
> Thing is, we mint yanks when they were at their prime, you lot joined as a after thought on this American bandwagon, and as a matter or pure luck or shall I say brilliant foresight, we build strong strategic partnership with Chinese at the time when they were discarded by rest of the world as drug addicts, and now they are the movers and shakers in world affairs. So yea we are doing pretty ok.
> 
> Question is, putting all your eggs in the sun which setting on the horizon, going forward, would we take it as masterstroke or planing stupidity?
> 
> Today of all days, for some reason, I am thinking about Late Gen Hameed Gul and his words.


well we indians never put all eggs in one basket but same cant be said about you first it was USA/friends not masters now its china time to watch out is fore you not us we have good relations with every power block and doing all kinds of trade with them worry should be yours


----------



## dray

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's the whole point of my OP. It's not like China and India were friends to start with, only when India wanted something from us (NSG/UNSC seats).
> 
> And sure, if you want something you can have it. But since we are not friends, don't expect it for free.
> 
> (Edited my previous post after your complaint, btw.)
> 
> @Rain Man how goes the preparations for cutting off trade ties with China?



Who said 'cutting'? The word is 'control'..



Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.



This post of @Nilgiri should solve your queries.



Nilgiri said:


> It might hurt some to know that China gave fuel to India's tarapur reactor in the mid 90s:
> 
> http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-opinion/remember-lessons-from-tarapur/article3039230.ece
> 
> Dealing with the Chinese today is basically a question of what they want unofficially. There use of Pakistan equality with India is really just a cover....they have betrayed Pakistan under the table quite a few times already when the price is right (lack of pursuing a waiver for Pakistan, supplying fuel to Tarapur, giving NSG waiver to India).
> 
> In fact their lack of pursuing a waiver for Pakistan is especially interesting. It seems they want to a) prevent being the lone supporter of such a waiver b) keep Pakistan a captive market for Chinese nuclear industry (since a waiver would open up the world nuclear market to Pakistan...like it has done for India.)
> 
> Similarly China feels that the NSG is where the buck stops, so they can put a fly in the ointment for India as far as competition that India can provide in supplying nuclear technology at cost-effective pricepoints that China currently monopolizes within the NSG-IAEA framework.
> 
> Problem for them is that this window wont last too long given the rumours already going around of creating an entirely new grouping of the 47 other members of the NSG + India (and instead of China)....not to mention India can also keep making specific bilateral arrangements (esp if it has the backing of the other main NSG members) in the meantime.
> 
> China can only hope to get the best deal it can by letting India into the NSG the way I see it, since they can at least get something from India in return. But hey, if they want to continue on their current track for whatever "face-saving reason"....Napoleon said it best....do not stop your enemy when he is making a mistake

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## Chinese-Dragon

Rain Man said:


> This post of @Nilgiri should solve your queries.



The post by @Nilgiri is a good one, very insightful.

In geopolitics, countries seek to further their own national interests. Therefore India can get the seat if they decide to play ball.

NSG and UNSC aren't even that relevant for China, we don't consult them for anything we do, whether it is supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan or building islands in the SCS. None of these things are approved by the NSG/UNSC.

All that matters is, what can further our national interests. So countries will negotiate with each other to come to an understanding.

But India still doesn't seem to see geopolitics as a game of interests. Their attitude towards China/Pakistan is all about emotion. They could offer great deals to other NSG members, but not to China, even though it might have got them the seat.

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## Gibbs

Guynextdoor2 said:


> You think Indian establishment did not know china's opposition? They decided to make one coordinated effort. They'll be back again. Like I said UNSC is a 15 year project and there will be several reverses along the way.



Like i said these exclusive clubs have veto powers for a reason, India could try endless times and kudos for your efforts, And there will be few moral victories here and there.. But that's where it ends

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## Mufflerman

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The post by @Nilgiri is a good one, very insightful.
> 
> In geopolitics, countries seek to further their own national interests. Therefore India can get the seat if they decide to play ball.
> 
> NSG and UNSC aren't even that relevant for China, we don't consult them for anything we do, whether it is supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan or building islands in the SCS. None of these things are approved by the NSG/UNSC.
> 
> All that matters is, what can further our national interests. So countries will negotiate with each other to come to an understanding.
> 
> *But India still doesn't seem to see geopolitics as a game of interests. Their attitude towards China/Pakistan is all about emotion. They could offer great deals to other NSG members, but not to China, even though it might have got them the seat*.


India plays by the rules. Always have always will. Your folly is to mistake that for weakness. And this trait of India is what makes other nations trust us. Hence the support of 47/48. And hence your fear of us.

Despite all the prejudices and barriers that the rest of the world created for India in the last 60 years, our accomplishments are many and still on the rise. We are technologically not far behind and will be at pace with the rest soon. You can stay in denial about that

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## Taimoor Khan

GURU DUTT said:


> well we indians never put all eggs in one basket but same cant be said about you first it was USA/friends not masters now its china time to watch out is fore you not us we have good relations with every power block and doing all kinds of trade with them worry should be yours



LOL, sunshine, everyone with slight understanding of geopolitics is aware that you have jumped into Uncle Sam lap not today but since early 90s. The NSG was the reward of your loyalty which unfortunately went horrible wrong. My condolences. 

And please read my comments again. We didnt tilt towards China recently, we have been their partners since the time they were class as drug addicts. Our partnership spans decades. Only the foolish Indians think otherwise  .

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## dray

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The post by @Nilgiri is a good one, very insightful.
> 
> In geopolitics, countries seek to further their own national interests. Therefore India can get the seat if they decide to play ball.
> 
> NSG and UNSC aren't even that relevant for China, we don't consult them for anything we do, whether it is supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan or building islands in the SCS. None of these things are approved by the NSG/UNSC.
> 
> All that matters is, what can further our national interests. So countries will negotiate with each other to come to an understanding.
> 
> But India still doesn't seem to see geopolitics as a game of interests. Their attitude towards China/Pakistan is all about emotion. They could offer great deals to other NSG members, but not to China, even though it might have got them the seat.



What I am saying is not out of emotion, China enjoys a huge trade imbalance with us, that's a benefit for China for which we got nothing in return. This benefit should be seen as a trade off for what we want, otherwise we need to take back that benefit, at least a portion of it that is non-essential imports for us. Then China can negotiate with us about what we want to get back those benefits. And trust me, there is enough scope to cut down on non-essential imports.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Rain Man said:


> What I am saying is not out of emotion, China enjoys a huge trade imbalance with us, that's a benefit for China for which we got nothing in return. This benefit should be seen as a trade off for what we want, otherwise we need to take back that benefit, at least a portion of it that is non-essential imports for us. Then China can negotiate with us about what we want to get back those benefits. And trust me, there is enough scope to cut down on non-essential imports.



Nobody "forces" other countries/people to trade. They trade because it benefits them.

If a businessman thinks that a particular trade is a bad deal, he will find someone else to trade with instantly. The world is FULL of trade deals, the second a better deal comes along they will switch to it instantly.

Indian businessmen don't buy from China because they like China, Indian consumers don't buy made in China because they like China, the Indian government doesn't order Chinese trains/railways because they like China.

They do it because they think it's the best deal for THEM. They aren't helping us, they are helping themselves.

If you want to hurt yourselves in order to hurt us as well, then please be my guest. We will of course have to retaliate in kind. Both sides will be able to bear the losses without much pain I would wager. So go for it.

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## bolo

Rain Man said:


> What I am saying is not out of emotion, China enjoys a huge trade imbalance with us, that's a benefit for China for which we got nothing in return. This benefit should be seen as a trade off for what we want, otherwise we need to take back that benefit, at least a portion of it that is non-essential imports for us. Then China can negotiate with us about what we want to get back those benefits. And trust me, there is enough scope to cut down on non-essential imports.



Sir, have you thought why China has a huge trade surplus against India? Indians want Chinese products but other than natural resources and agriculture products, India does not have things Chinese want.

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## GURU DUTT

Taimoor Khan said:


> LOL, sunshine, everyone with slight understanding of geopolitics is aware that you have jumped into Uncle Sam lap not today but since early 90s. The NSG was the reward of your loyalty which unfortunately went horrible wrong. My condolences.
> 
> And please read my comments again. We didnt tilt towards China recently, we have been their partners since the time they were class as drug addicts. Our partnership spans decades. Only the foolish Indians think otherwise  .


well even USA had its trade and economic relations with india ever since india became free nation and they even helped us in 1962 big time but then they shifted there focus to pakistan but after operation gibralter they abandonned you and both ayub khan and ZAB had to run to USSR and later do tashkent accord  so owr relation with USA , UK , France or germany japan is also very old point is what now and good luck


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## Guynextdoor2

Gibbs said:


> Like i said these exclusive clubs have veto powers for a reason, India could try endless times and kudos for your efforts, And there will be few moral victories here and there.. But that's where it ends



What BS

- India lobbied and got 40+ countries to support it
-China *also lobbied *the same 40+ countries *but they did not support it, went* against China's wishes *and voted against it's stand*

Excepting Austria to support China's stand that Pak should get NSG is just ridiculous. Their problems are probabky different (do gooder, doesn't want nuclear system for one country and so on).


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## thesolar65

For the first time in more than a decade, India's quest for a place at the global high table faces a reversal of course. What amounts to an outright rejection of India's attempt to become a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group or NSG requires us to stand back and question exactly how we are presenting ourself to the world - and whether our foreign policy priorities still make sense. 

Let's be clear about one thing: the driving force behind the rejection of NSG membership for India was China. The People's Republic has sought to hide behind procedure, claiming that exceptions to outdated non-proliferation rules cannot be made for India. This is obviously hypocritical; China expects, for example, that any number of other international rules need to be bent to serve its own rise. Just look at its behaviour in the South China Sea, where it seems to expect that the law of the sea should not apply to its actions. 

China's assertion on procedure amounts to an insistence that Pakistan should be considered for NSG membership at the same time as India. This is, for obvious reasons, farcical; no any objective consideration of the two countries' records on nuclear proliferation suggests they're comparable. Pakistan has been continually and consistently unreliable on it; India, whatever its past behaviour, has since the late 1990s tests, lived up to international non-proliferation commitments - even though it has signed no treaty compelling it to do so. 

The takeaways from this NSG fiasco are two-fold. 

The first is that China has now shown us its hand. More explicitly than ever before, it has told the world this: that it does not - and will not for the foreseeable future - allow India its natural space in the world. The leaders of the People's Republic do not intend to enable India's rise the way they expect and demand the rest of the globe support China's own rise. 



India has long harboured a large constituency of people who believe that "non-alignment" between China and the US is in India's best interests. The NSG vote has clearly shown up the holes in this argument. What non-alignment is reasonable between China and the US when those two countries, through their behaviour, have shown what their own alignment towards India actually is? 

Naturally, this is not an argument for not deepening and strengthening our ties with China. Creating a closer relationship with China is a necessary part of any effort to change minds in Beijing about how they should deal with India. (The same basic logic applies, of course, to our efforts to deepen and strengthen ties with Pakistan.)

But that does not mean that we can deny reality. And the reality is this: of the US and China, only one has committed to viewing India as a great world power, to detaching its association with Pakistan with its connection to India, and to giving India the place it deserves in global institutions. Indian foreign policy must reflect this difference, regardless of what Delhi's congenitally anti-American elites believe. In such a choice, where no balance is offered, no balance can be achieved. Let all talk of 21st-century non-alignment now end. 

The second lesson is that India must make its vision of its own future clear. It needs to make explicitly what it expects and deserves: a global order that unequivocally recognises India's position as the world's fastest-growing large economy, the world's largest democracy - and soon its largest country, bar none. 

This expectation is both just and realistic. China's peaceful rise is being accommodated by the post-World War II world arrangements. India's equally inevitable rise must be, too. 

This might indeed require exceptions to long-standing rules or norms. It could indeed need global agreements to have conscious India exceptions. There is nothing to be ashamed of in this; it is merely realistic. This country is too large, and is changing too quickly, for things to be otherwise. And it is too large and too important for the worlds' future for denying exceptions to be morally defensible. 

India's diplomacy needs to make this vision of our future as explicit as possible, given that it is both morally justified and necessary. 

Yes, foreign policy under Narendra Modi has focused on raising India's profile. Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar has at various points laid out the argument that India must transition from being a "balancing" to being a "leading" power. 

But there needs to be more coherent messaging. The NSG fiasco, which sets back this country's necessary campaign for a more just global order, certainly reveals that much. If it was unlikely that China would change its mind, then it is unclear why we pushed. 

In 2008, when India was given access to certain NSG privileges, a big reason was because the American president could ask a favour of China's paramount leader. Perhaps President Obama did not want to ask with enough passion; perhaps he could not, given his lame-duck status; perhaps this paramount leader is less well disposed to his neighbours than 2008's. All of these should have been taken into consideration; were they? If so, what thinking underlay the decision to push through anyway? We deserve an answer. The government's desire for quick, positive headlines at home must not be allowed to obscure our larger aims. 

And even after the decision to push at the NSG was taken, is this really the best outcome? To have states like Brazil and South Africa, nominally our partners in BRICS, nevertheless contribute to procedural objections to a discussion of the Indian exception? What should have been China vs the world turned into something far messier. That is a serious setback, and one that should not be minimised. 

India's membership of the NSG on its own terms is not about the arcana of international law. It is not even about the nuclear trade. It is about creating, as smoothly as possible, a global order that recognises the place in the world that India will inevitably occupy. Our government's job is to guide the world to the recognition of this inevitability.

http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/in-nsg-fiasco-clear-lessons-for-india-on-handling-china-and-more-1423036

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## Guynextdoor2

On the contrary, it's been an excellent effort. We need to thrash it out with china of course, but this one was a brilliant effort by MEA.

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## Taimoor Khan

GURU DUTT said:


> well even USA had its trade and economic relations with india ever since india became free nation and they even helped us in 1962 big time but then they shifted there focus to pakistan but after operation gibralter they abandonned you and both ayub khan and ZAB had to run to USSR and later do tashkent accord  so owr relation with USA , UK , France or germany japan is also very old point is what now and good luck



Yes American did help you, no doubt you lot are the highest recipient of USAID anywhere in the world 

BUT what I was referring to, the total Indian embrace of America and jumping into uncle sam lap, that process started in 90s. Before that, you lot had a ambiguous policy. 

And yes exactly. What now??

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## Gibbs

Guynextdoor2 said:


> What BS
> 
> - India lobbied and got 40+ countries to support it
> -China *also lobbied *the same 40+ countries *but they did not support it, went* against China's wishes *and voted against it's stand*
> 
> Excepting Austria to support China's stand that Pak should get NSG is just ridiculous. Their problems are probabky different (do gooder, doesn't want nuclear system for one country and so on).



Doesn't matter.. China has the veto end of.. I can't fathom why that's so difficult to understand ?

Btw this supposed support you get from the US, Needs to be seen through the prism of US diplomacy.. It's very easy to play the good cop when you know there will be a bad cop to spoil the party in this case China, Their role is the same when it comes to the UNSC.. If India thinks that the US will allow India to prance in to either the UNSC P5 or NSG you'll are sadly mistaken.. US will play good cop, bad cop game when it suits them but not necessarily for the benefit of India, At the moment it's advantageous for them to be seen propping up India due to the power play in the north pacific and SCS

India lobbied heavily for the support of those 40 countries, China didnt have to lobby that hard cos they had the veto, and in the end except for a probable moral victory of the said support of those 40 countries (Now also in doubt) India ended up zero battered and bruised from the International real politik boxing ring

So the tally stands.. Round one China 1 India 0

Let the next round begin

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## GURU DUTT

Taimoor Khan said:


> Yes American did help you, no doubt you lot are the highest recipient of USAID anywhere in the world
> 
> BUT what I was referring to, the total Indian embrace of America and jumping into uncle sam lap, that process started in 90s. Before that, you lot had a ambiguous policy.
> 
> And yes exactly. What now??


lolzz you sound like hurt well im not surprised when you even after bieng part of CEATO and CENTO and a most important non NATO ally to be termed as a nations supporting and patronising terrorists and what not dont worry this NSG episode is just a minor blip a lot more coming for you now


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

@Rain Man @Nilgiri @Srinivas
Its is hilarious the OP is stating CISMOA and LSA was signed to get US support for NSG membership.
If we go by that logic, shouldn't CISMOA and LSA be payback for American success on India's NSG waiver?

The OP again like his nation's media completely has white-washed on the significance of NSG waiver or its threatening consequences to China. Guess CCP is an omnipotent entity which can never make mistakes and any thing thats seems to be mistake should be hushed up.

The Americans under Bush had good foresight and anticipated these hurdles to India's NSG membership.Hence schemed the NSG waiver as a bait, which the omnipotent CCP leadership of China was gullible enough to bite.
It still remains a mystery how China got forced by USA to compromise its own nation's security.The same USA the OP keeps boasting about how China forced them on the longest retreat in Korean war. 

As I have stated earlier. China's attempt to block our membership is damage control for the NSG waiver blunder.
For sometime in future in order nullify India's NSG waiver and update NSG charter China would need the entire group's consensus, which however is going be a Herculean task given 41 of 48 members support India.
China is free to hold its breath until that happens.

What is interesting to note here is despite PRC's much touted global power and influence, not a single NSG member rejected India's application in order to appease the Chinese stance. The 6 other nations creating hurdles were doing it for their own reasons.

On whole I think it was blunder to jump for NSG membership without addressing each of the naysayers separately.

China can addressed once we attain MTCR membership and trade their MTCR membership for our NSG membership.

Except Turkey, rest of the other 5 nations improving trade relations may help.

Its only Turkey under Edrogan that seems to be a wild card and prove most difficult to win over, as currently we seem to have nothing to offer them.

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## imran169

Its a bit strange that Indian media is targeting only China giving expression that only China is against Indian NSG membership...!

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ndia-nsg-bid-meet-seoul-live-updates-2871865/
*Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India's NSG bid citing its non-NPT status.*
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rt-to-Indias-NSG-bid/articleshow/52897139.cms
*Switzerland takes U-turn on its support to India's NSG bid*

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## AndrewJin

Just relax. 
Try next time, fly more around the world.

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## bolo

Rain Man said:


> Guess who will be the bigger loser in a scenario greatly favouring Chinese businesses.
> 
> And we will get every seat we want in the world eventually, China can cause us some inconveniences, and will suffer the consequences.

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## dray

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Nobody "forces" other countries/people to trade. They trade because it benefits them.
> 
> If a businessman thinks that a particular trade is a bad deal, he will find someone else to trade with instantly. The world is FULL of trade deals, the second a better deal comes along they will switch to it instantly.
> 
> Indian businessmen don't buy from China because they like China, Indian consumers don't buy made in China because they like China, the Indian government doesn't order Chinese trains/railways because they like China.
> 
> They do it because they think it's the best deal for THEM. They aren't helping us, they are helping themselves.
> 
> If you want to hurt yourselves in order to hurt us as well, then please be my guest. We will of course have to retaliate in kind. Both sides will be able to bear the losses without much pain I would wager. So go for it.



There is something called a "Government" that can decide what kinds of imports are to be allowed, the taxes and duties, etc. Since a good friend of mine @Nilgiri has already explained it quite eloquently, I won't repeat the task, you can check these two posts below:



Nilgiri said:


> Purely end use consumption products can be tarrifed under dumping norms till they effecitvely become a quota. Then let the case China puts in WTO drag on for however long giving a window for indian and other countries suppliers to fill it in the meantime.
> 
> Intermediates can be analysed as to their benefit for further labour processing within India and tariffed accordingly.
> 
> No free rides given to Chinese suppliers. They will be discriminated and treated prejudicially by Indian govt.





Nilgiri said:


> Explain how it will hurt India? We have already taken action against Chinese steel dumping....and thats an intermediate good.
> 
> Finished goods are the really soft target. Our consumers can take a little hit on the price increase if needed, esp if it means helping domestic and non-chinese industry.
> 
> What are we importing from China that is absolutely critical? Energy? Nope. Transport? Nope. Education? Nope. Health? Nope.....Imports of finished goods are price elastic...so are the machinery and capital goods, plenty of suppliers for those...even domestic ones. A little closing off from China can be a good thing for India from that stand point alone.
> 
> The only thing that needs caution are intermediate goods that are inputs for Indian manufacturing jobs. Other than that, pretty punitive action can be taken. Indian exports to China are not that significant if they resort to a trade war. CAD will improve overall.





bolo said:


> Sir, have you thought why China has a huge trade surplus against India? Indians want Chinese products but other than natural resources and agriculture products, India does not have things Chinese want.



You need to gain more knowledge in this. Thanks..

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## Taimoor Khan

GURU DUTT said:


> lolzz you sound like hurt well im not surprised when you even after bieng part of CEATO and CENTO and a most important non NATO ally to be termed as a nations supporting and patronising terrorists and what not dont worry this NSG episode is just a minor blip a lot more coming for you now



Me hurt?? LOL, I am enjoying this Indian humiliation to the max, rest assured! and if there is a lot more to come, and I rather fasten my seat belt . 

For the yanks, they can honk all they want, we care less. We just gave the Russian company pipeline project , a company which is under sanction by US.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Director General said:


> Indian media Is far more credible than Pakistan media.
> India is ranked 133 in press freedom index whereas Pakistan is a huge 14 ranks behind at 147.
> BTW the statement of PM Modi thanking Russia for support at NSG is issued by the Ministry of External Affairs itself



NOT much difference in rating of your and mine media.......Lot of factors involve in giving rating process. Report said : 

*“The Pakistani media are nonetheless regarded as among the freest in Asia when it comes to covering the squabbling among politicians,” the report added.

Our *rating may have down due to killing of some journalists......

CONGRATULATIONS!!! If Russia had supported u..........

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## Chinese-Dragon

Rain Man said:


> There is something called a "Government" that can decide what kinds of imports are to be allowed, the taxes and duties, etc. Since a good friend of mine @Nilgiri has already explained it quite eloquently, I won't repeat the task, you can check these two posts below:
> 
> You need to gain more knowledge in this. Thanks..



I think you are confused. 

He is talking about tariffs. Do you know what happens when you raise tariffs against a certain country? They raise tariffs in return. Trade war 101.

Why do you think there is so much barking about the Indian trade deficit to China... yet the trade deficit keeps growing year after year?

But again, I'd love for you guys to finally, for once... put your money where your mouth is. Start a Trade war, we didn't build up several trillions in currency reserves just to lose a Trade war.

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## war&peace

That shows that the world is changing and USA is not as powerful as it was at some point in time and world is realising the influence of the next superpower China. 


HAIDER said:


> The group decided that it would deal with non-NPT states with an even hand, the source added.


This also tells that principles stand taller than vested interests


HAIDER said:


> The countries that opposed India’s application included China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey. To India’s shock, some of the countries that had initially pledged support for its candidature did not do so at the meeting.


I guess mourning session will soon commence in New Delhi

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## AndrewJin

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I think you are confused.
> 
> He is talking about tariffs. Do you know what happens when you raise tariffs against a certain country? They raise tariffs in return. Trade war 101.
> 
> Why do you think there is so much barking about the Indian trade deficit to China... yet the trade deficit keeps growing year after year?
> 
> But again, I'd love for you guys to finally, for once... put your money where your mouth is. Start a Trade war, we didn't build up several trillions in currency reserves just to lose a Trade war.


I'm just wondering, if they start a trade war and stop importing electronic components, how will they assemble their make-in-india phones?

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## Gibbs

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I'm not saying China shoould't use Veto but this is really a very high political price to pay. The stature of china has diminished. If it was a process that had even 4/5 vote for approval they'd have egg on their face.



Hmmm. I dont really see how China paid any price in this game ? Sure the Western block supported the US stance not necessarily India.. You would agree with me if you're indeed aware of how global realpolitik works.. So it was a case of US vs China, India's NSG bid was just the pawn i'm afraid

You see mate, China really did'nt have to make an effort, they were very clear in their stance from the beginning, And they have the veto.. Sign the NPT , We wont oppose, It's the US at the behest of India that tried to circumvent the protocol, Which failed, You may find smaller nations such as Switzerland opposed the bid from the reports coming in

UK, France, Japan etc didnt vote against China they voted with the US, They usually do, Almost everytime

Btw if Kerry really wanted to make this happen he could have, Just saying

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## AndrewJin

war&peace said:


> That shows that the world is changing and USA is not as powerful as it was at some point in time and world is realising the influence of the next superpower China.
> 
> This also tells that principles stand taller than vested interests
> 
> I guess mourning session will soon commence in New Delhi


If they were that strong, UK would not be one of the founding members of China-led investment bank.



Gibbs said:


> Hmmm. I dont really see how China paid any price in this game ? Sure the Western block supported the US stance not necessarily India.. You would agree with me if you're indeed aware of how global realpolitik works.. So it was a case of US vs China, India's NSG bid was just the pawn i'm afraid
> 
> You see mate, China really did'nt have to make an effort, they were very clear in their stance from the beginning, And they have the veto.. Sign the NPT , We wont oppose, It's the US at the behest of India that tried to circumvent the protocol, Which failed, You may find smaller nations such as Switzerland opposed the bid from the reports coming in
> 
> Btw if Kerry really wanted to make this happen he could have, Just saying


Ultimately a China-US deal.

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## war&peace

imran169 said:


> Its a bit strange that Indian media is targeting only China giving expression that only China is against Indian NSG membership...!
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ndia-nsg-bid-meet-seoul-live-updates-2871865/
> *Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India's NSG bid citing its non-NPT status.*
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rt-to-Indias-NSG-bid/articleshow/52897139.cms
> *Switzerland takes U-turn on its support to India's NSG bid*


Because they are thinking that all of these countries opposed India under pressure from China...that simply means they are tacitly acknowledging the superpower status of China. Or perhaps they do not want to admit their total defeat since this cripples their future chances also since they have been singing the mantra that it is only China that's opposing while everyone else is supporting them. I think they are in shock after building so much hype..it is hurting their butts reall bad.


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## Mentee

So the plot goes like this Miyan sb to Xi don't let india in----Xi no problem amigo----Xi to putin don't support India------Putin what about ma indian checks of lacs n crores ----Xi ok then I cancel all Su35 and other goodies----Putin oh come on Xi give me a break -----ok I got a plan you veto India I'll pat em wink wink  they are not getting in anyway

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## Chinese-Dragon

AndrewJin said:


> I'm just wondering, if they start a trade war and stop importing electronic components, how will they assemble their make-in-india phones?



They can't.

Most of the manufactured goods in the world have something to do with China, whether it is made in China, assembled in China, has components from China, or is otherwise involved with the Chinese end of the global supply chain.

The major Indian smartphone makers like Micromax in fact just buy Chinese mobiles off the shelf, and re-brand them. That's all, they don't have anything to do with the hardware.

How Micromax used China to build its business - Rediff

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## bolo

AndrewJin said:


> I'm just wondering, if they start a trade war and stop importing electronic components, how will they assemble their make-in-india phones?


Sir, The Indian elite and business people will never allow that. They are making a lot of money and keeping the power status quo importing Chinese products and re-branding it and selling to Indians.

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## Gibbs

AndrewJin said:


> Ultimately a China-US deal.



A lot of people dont realize how global real politik work, Thats the whole issue here, Global power play doesn't happen according to whims of fancies nationalists in developing countries, It's a whole different ball game.. The US knew all along this wont pass, And China would oppose it.. So they played the good cop, Came out unscratched

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## dray

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I think you are confused.
> 
> He is talking about tariffs. Do you know what happens when you raise tariffs against a certain country? They raise tariffs in return. Trade war 101.
> 
> Why do you think there is so much barking about the Indian trade deficit to China... yet the trade deficit keeps growing year after year?
> 
> But again, I'd love for you guys to finally, for once... put your money where your mouth is. Start a Trade war, we didn't build up several trillions in currency reserves just to lose a Trade war.



I didn't say stop all trade, did I? I said 'cut down' the imports that we can without any problem to us. And it will be cut down now for sure. You start a trade war and lose the rest, in any case who do you think stands to lose more in a trade war between India and China? The one which is enjoying the trade imbalance in their favour, right? That Trade deficit happened in last 10 years or so, and it can be reversed. Your government will get the hint within a month.


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## AndrewJin

Gibbs said:


> A lot of people dont realize how global real politik work, Thats the whole issue here, Global power play doesn't happen according to whims of fancies nationalists in developing countries, It's a whole different ball game.. The US knew all along this wont pass, And China would oppose it.. So they played the good cop, Came out unscratched


Yes.
Dirty deal behind. US needed China to be the bad guy.
U can see in SCS, US gets the fame and sells more weapon, but China also builds more islands and has unprecedented presence.
It's a win-win deal.
When they were verbally fighting in Singapore, at the same period they also had a joint drill.






It's a nice show, both parties are enjoying.

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## danger007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> They can't.
> 
> Most of the manufactured goods in the world have something to do with China, whether it is made in China, assembled in China, has components from China, or is otherwise involved with the Chinese end of the global supply chain.
> 
> The major Indian smartphone makers like Micromax in fact just buy Chinese mobiles off the shelf, and re-brand them. That's all, they don't have anything to do with the hardware.
> 
> How Micromax used China to build its business - Rediff




Yup many of these phones are rebranded chinese stuff ... But the fact Samsung remain most preferred brand in India.. I phone investing here, there are other mobile companies in SRI CITY alone ( Industrial park)... to the date these local manufacturing units are depended on chinese ... but dependency slowly narrowing... from assembling unit to they build a manufacturing unit recently.. we need to catch the R and D ..

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Rain Man said:


> There is something called a "Government" that can decide what kinds of imports are to be allowed, the taxes and duties, etc. Since a good friend of mine @Nilgiri has already explained it quite eloquently, I won't repeat the task, you can check these two posts below:
> 
> You need to gain more knowledge in this. Thanks..



Just to add a bit on trade part with China, I have repeatedly attempted to educate Chinese members on Indian dependence on Chinese imports, but despite my best efforts some cognitive inertias are hard to change.

I guess Chinese members should continue to live in delusion of Indian economic dependence on China rather than reality that India does not import anything critical or strategic from China that cannot be easily replaced by another nation:



> Top ten Chinese exports to India
> 
> Electronic equipment: $16 billion
> Machines, engines, pumps: $9.8 billion
> Organic chemicals: $6.3 billion
> Fertilizers: $2.7 billion
> Iron and steel: $2.3 billion
> Plastics: $1.7 billion
> Iron or steel products: $1.4 billion
> Gems, precious metals, coins: $1.3 billion
> Ships, boats: $1.3 billion
> Medical, technical equipment: $1.2 billion



http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_china_exports.html


In regard to lower Indian exports from India, Chinese have shown protectionism when it comes a major Indian export of Pharmaceuticals, this has been done to protect its own industry at the cost of its citizens. 

There must be massive demand for Indian Pharmaceuticals consider some Chinese are risking jail time to procure affordable Indian medicines.

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## Chinese-Dragon

danger007 said:


> Yup many of these phones are rebranded chinese stuff ... But the fact Samsung remain most preferred brand in India.. I phone investing here, there are other mobile companies in SRI CITY alone ( Industrial park)... to the date these local manufacturing units are depended on chinese ... but dependency slowly narrowing... from assembling unit to they build a manufacturing unit recently.. we need to catch the R and D ..



Guess where Samsung phones are made?

Guess where all the components inside your smartphone, tablet, PC/laptop came from? 

Open them up and look inside.

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## Mufflerman

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Guess where Samsung phones are made?
> 
> Guess where all the components inside your smartphone came from?


10 years back it was China that was assembling with Taiwanese and Japanese chips. Don't be so cocky. India's first mega chip fab unit is opening in 2 years. You should start worrying dude.

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## Echo_419

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.



What do you want?


----------



## Spectre

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I think you are confused.
> 
> He is talking about tariffs. Do you know what happens when you raise tariffs against a certain country? They raise tariffs in return. Trade war 101.
> 
> Why do you think there is so much barking about the Indian trade deficit to China... yet the trade deficit keeps growing year after year?
> 
> But again, I'd love for you guys to finally, for once... put your money where your mouth is. Start a Trade war, we didn't build up several trillions in currency reserves just to lose a Trade war.



Good Post. Specially about the relevance of your 3 trillion dollar reserves in trade wars.

Indian Posters - Keep your calm. Don't give into baits. Let me give a quasi realistic picture =

China right now will eat India alive in a trade war. They will outbid us in each and every off shore contracts like purchasing oil fields, non IT exports and major E&C contracts. They have capability to put a run on rupee. They can impose serious inflation in India by cutting supply.

All this will come at a cost to China - but a cost they can afford considering they will be finishing off the India story at their terms.

Does this mean we throw in the towel or embark on a glorious but ultimately suicidal charge on China? No. Here is what I think we should do -

*LEARN FROM CHINA
*
1.* Engage China and make them a partner in Indian growth story:*

Chinese companies are very interested in India as a growth engine. Alibaba and countless other firms are ready to invest in India - an amount which will dwarf Japanese and American investments. Their E&C firms are ready to provide lucrative financing options. Their capital goods manufactures already provide best in class Trade Credits.

More China gets into India, further it will become a stakeholder in Indian prosperity and work in alliance with Indian interests. You win the war by co-opting the enemy

2. *Be a coward
*
India cannot confront China on territorial and geo-political issues alone and hope to come out ahead. This is a an *UNDENIABLE FACT. *So confront China as a part of a bloc from the rearguard. Let the Americans and Japanese take the body blows and be ready to feast on the left-overs.

The mistake this time made in NSG is that India took the front seat while in '08 USA was running the show. India for all it's cumulative power is a rookie when it comes to power posturing. It also doesn't have the leverages, a country like US acquires throughout decades of wheeling and dealing. We will get there but this was too soon. So you see what happened - We got back-stabbed by the Swiss and the Brazilians, Russians gave us their support but refused to lobby on our behalf, US made half -hearted attempts as it suits them to make India loose and drive India further into their camp.

We should have either negotiated a stronger commitment from US where it would have threatened dire consequences to China or we should have dealth with China directly by offering them concrete benefits such as Bullet Train contracts, Preferential trade terms and Reactor deals as @Chinese-Dragon suggested

3. [B]Break Rules
[/B]
Sign the goddamn NPT and then renege on it. China signed it and is a member of NSG but does it give two hoots for it? No! It breaks them with impunity. We bit the bullet and did the nuclear tests - did the sky fall? No! After couple of years of mild pain, we were back in business. Now we are in a even more favorable situation. Only currency in this world is commerce, rest is all BS. As they say in India "Paisa Phek, Tamasha Dekh" crude translation "Throw money to make others dance to your tunes"

Regards

[USER=37361]@MilSpec @Joe Shearer[/USER]

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## AndrewJin

Echo_419 said:


> What do you want?


hmm, good question.
What can India offer?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Echo_419

AndrewJin said:


> I'm just wondering, if they start a trade war and stop importing electronic components, how will they assemble their make-in-india phones?




We don't import anything of strategic value from you & if you think that there aren't substitutes for electronic components then you are dead wrong


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## AndrewJin

Echo_419 said:


> We don't import anything of strategic value from you & if you think that there aren't substitutes for electronic components then you are dead wrong


Do it!
Can't wait

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## Echo_419

AndrewJin said:


> hmm, good question.
> What can India offer?



you asked the Question & you want me to answer, WTF?


----------



## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> Good Post. Specially about the relevance of your 3 trillion dollar reserves in trade wars.
> 
> Indian Posters - Keep your calm. Don't give into baits. Let me give a quasi realistic picture =
> 
> China right now will eat India alive in a trade war. They will outbid us in each and every off shore contracts like purchasing oil fields, non IT exports and major E&C contracts. They have capability to put a run on rupee. They can impose serious inflation in India by cutting supply.
> 
> All this will come at a cost to China - but a cost they can afford considering they will be finishing off the India story at their terms.
> 
> Does this mean we throw in the towel or embark on a glorious but ultimately suicidal charge on China? No. Here is what I think we should do -
> 
> *LEARN FROM CHINA
> *
> 1.* Engage China and make them a partner in Indian growth story:*
> 
> Chinese companies are very interested in India as a growth engine. Alibaba and countless other firms are ready to invest in India - an amount which will dwarf Japanese and American investments. Their E&C firms are ready to provide lucrative financing options. Their capital goods manufactures already provide best in class Trade Credits.
> 
> More China gets into India, further it will become a stakeholder in Indian prosperity and work in alliance with Indian interests. You win the war by co-opting the enemy
> 
> 2. *Be a coward
> *
> India cannot confront China on territorial and geo-political issues alone and hope to come out ahead. This is a an *UNDENIABLE FACT. *So confront China as a part of a bloc from the rearguard. Let the Americans and Japanese take the body blows and be ready to feast on the left-overs.
> 
> The mistake this time made in NSG is that India took the front seat while in '08 USA was running the show. India for all it's cumulative power is a rookie when it comes to power posturing. It also doesn't have the leverages, a country like US acquires throughout decades of wheeling and dealing. We will get there but this was too soon. So you see what happened - We got back-stabbed by the Swiss and the Brazilians, Russians gave us their support but refused to lobby on our behalf, US made half -hearted attempts as it suits them to make India loose and drive India further into their camp.
> 
> We should have either negotiated a stronger commitment from US where it would have threatened dire consequences to China or we should have dealth with China directly by offering them concrete benefits such as Bullet Train contracts, Preferential trade terms and Reactor deals as @Chinese-Dragon suggested
> 
> 3. [B]Break Rules
> [/B]
> Sign the goddamn NPT and then renege on it. China signed it and is a member of NSG but does it give two hoots for it? No! It breaks them with impunity. We bit the bullet and did the nuclear tests - did the sky fall? No! After couple of years of mild pain, we were back in business. Now we are in a even more favorable situation. Only currency in this world is commerce, rest is all BS. As they say in India "Paisa Phek, Tamasha Dekh" crude translation "Throw money to make other dance to your tunes"
> 
> Regards
> 
> [USER=37361]@MilSpec @Joe Shearer[/USER]




Great analysis. That's the way to go. Meanwhile continue to grow our Air and Sea joint commands and keep our own hold on the two Indian Ocean choke points.

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## Echo_419

AndrewJin said:


> Do it!
> Can't wait



I am not in the government & have no interest in reducing our trade with China. I was merely educating you that we don't import anything important from you


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## Chinese-Dragon

AndrewJin said:


> hmm, good question.
> What can India offer?



From the Indian media it seems that Modi offered to let China build a few nuclear reactors in India, as well as letting us build some Industrial parks.

But apparently the terms were not good enough. It's a good start though, and NSG membership is pointless anyway.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Mufflerman

Spectre said:


> Good Post. Specially about the relevance of your 3 trillion dollar reserves in trade wars.
> 
> Indian Posters - Keep your calm. Don't give into baits. Let me give a quasi realistic picture =
> 
> China right now will eat India alive in a trade war. They will outbid us in each and every off shore contracts like purchasing oil fields, non IT exports and major E&C contracts. They have capability to put a run on rupee. They can impose serious inflation in India by cutting supply.
> 
> All this will come at a cost to China - but a cost they can afford considering they will be finishing off the India story at their terms.
> 
> Does this mean we throw in the towel or embark on a glorious but ultimately suicidal charge on China? No. Here is what I think we should do -
> 
> *LEARN FROM CHINA
> *
> 1.* Engage China and make them a partner in Indian growth story:*
> 
> Chinese companies are very interested in India as a growth engine. Alibaba and countless other firms are ready to invest in India - an amount which will dwarf Japanese and American investments. Their E&C firms are ready to provide lucrative financing options. Their capital goods manufactures already provide best in class Trade Credits.
> 
> More China gets into India, further it will become a stakeholder in Indian prosperity and work in alliance with Indian interests. You win the war by co-opting the enemy
> 
> 2. *Be a coward
> *
> India cannot confront China on territorial and geo-political issues alone and hope to come out ahead. This is a an *UNDENIABLE FACT. *So confront China as a part of a bloc from the rearguard. Let the Americans and Japanese take the body blows and be ready to feast on the left-overs.
> 
> The mistake this time made in NSG is that India took the front seat while in '08 USA was running the show. India for all it's cumulative power is a rookie when it comes to power posturing. It also doesn't have the leverages, a country like US acquires throughout decades of wheeling and dealing. We will get there but this was too soon. So you see what happened - We got back-stabbed by the Swiss and the Brazilians, Russians gave us their support but refused to lobby on our behalf, US made half -hearted attempts as it suits them to make India loose and drive India further into their camp.
> 
> We should have either negotiated a stronger commitment from US where it would have threatened dire consequences to China or we should have dealth with China directly by offering them concrete benefits such as Bullet Train contracts, Preferential trade terms and Reactor deals as @Chinese-Dragon suggested
> 
> 3. [B]Break Rules
> [/B]
> Sign the goddamn NPT and then renege on it. China signed it and is a member of NSG but does it give two hoots for it? No! It breaks them with impunity. We bit the bullet and did the nuclear tests - did the sky fall? No! After couple of years of mild pain, we were back in business. Now we are in a even more favorable situation. Only currency in this world is commerce, rest is all BS. As they say in India "Paisa Phek, Tamasha Dekh" crude translation "Throw money to make others dance to your tunes"
> 
> Regards
> 
> [USER=37361]@MilSpec @Joe Shearer[/USER]



It will take way too long to educate you so I won't even try.


----------



## AndrewJin

Chinese-Dragon said:


> From the Indian media it seems that Modi offered to let China build a few nuclear reactors in India, as well as letting us build some Industrial parks.
> 
> But apparently the terms were not good enough. It's a good start though, and NSG membership is pointless anyway.


Hmm
Central Asia
Shanghai Cooperation Organisation 








Echo_419 said:


> I am not in the government & have no interest in reducing our trade with China. I was merely educating you that we don't import anything important from you


Just do it.
Do it from daily life, stop buying make-in-india

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## Irfan Baloch

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.


these pretend friends are touting themselves to Americans as their willing henchmen to confront China and thus getting Military and non- military favours in the promise that they will stall china. 
the best they have achieved is had some Chinese citizens killed inside Pakistan through their terrorist Proxies like BLA and BRA

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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> Great analysis. That's the way to go. Meanwhile continue to grow our Air and Sea joint commands and keep our own hold on the two Indian Ocean choke points.



We Indian's still suffer from the British wounds which left us with an herculean chip on the shoulders. Instead of building on our successes and letting others approach us, we look towards getting entry into "clubs" which offer no concrete benefits except for a ego boost. 

Modi made a mistake here, gave in too much for too little and that is still not a crime. Crime was that he "Lost". In such high stakes game, you play to win or you sit one out. World is just too cruel to failures. 

It also dealt a big blow to Indian credibility. How can India promise favors at international geo-politics to other minnow nations when it cannot even pull it's own weight. 

"It is better to be quiet and let other's think you are a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

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## Makarena

Putin is heading to China to talk about deepening the relationship between both countries. Now they probably have a lot to joke about Modi. 

Putin: did you see Modi's face when the announcement came?
Xi: yeah, well play my friend, the old man didn't even see it coming

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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> We Indian's still suffer from the British wounds which left us with an herculean chip on the shoulders. Instead of building on our successes and letting others approach us, we look towards getting entry into "clubs" which offer no concrete benefits except for a ego boost.
> 
> Modi made a mistake here, gave in too much for too little and that is still not a crime. Crime was that he "Lost". In such high stakes game, you play to win or you sit one out. World is just too cruel to failures.
> 
> It also dealt a big blow to Indian credibility. How can India promise favors at international geo-politics to other minnow nations when it cannot even pull it's own weight.
> 
> "It is better to be quiet and let other's think you are a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"




Start a thread on India's present geo-political options.


----------



## bolo

Chinese-Dragon said:


> From the Indian media it seems that Modi offered to let China build a few nuclear reactors in India, as well as letting us build some Industrial parks.
> 
> But apparently the terms were not good enough. It's a good start though, and NSG membership is pointless anyway.



It's a bum deal for China. Allowing China to build nuclear plants mainly benefit India. They experience daily blackout. Building industrial parks mainly benefit India.

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## Spectre

Echo_419 said:


> I am not in the government & have no interest in reducing our trade with China. I was merely educating you that we don't import anything important from you



We do. Not a governmental level but a large portion of our capital goods used in our Energy and infrastructure projects is bought from China. If China stops servicing them then India faces a crippling blow to it's infrastructure.

Indian companies either don't produce these goods or if they do then they have huge supply side constraints like BHEL which has backlog of I think a decade now.


----------



## CorporateAffairs

Big win for China, Pak combo.
Loser USA.

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## HariPrasad

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.



Hey guys,

We know very well that you are not going help us but we have to do that at a part of procedure. Let me tell you that even best of effort of china shall not be able to harm our interest. We have moved ahead from the stage where you can harm us. Any effort by china to harm india shall be counter productive to china.


----------



## CorporateAffairs

Chinese-Dragon said:


> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*



Yes its evident now. 
Thought all Chinese hate to India is infatuation, but now no more living in dreams.
You will see an appropriate foreign policy from India.


----------



## bolo

Spectre said:


> 3. *Break Rules
> *
> Sign the goddamn NPT and then renege on it. China signed it and is a member of NSG but does it give two hoots for it? No! It breaks them with impunity. We bit the bullet and did the nuclear tests - did the sky fall? No! After couple of years of mild pain, we were back in business. Now we are in a even more favorable situation. Only currency in this world is commerce, rest is all BS. As they say in India "Paisa Phek, Tamasha Dekh" crude translation "Throw money to make others dance to your tunes"



This will show the world India is more untrustworthy than previously known. @Chinese-Dragon 

The other points you made are valid, but do you not think China know what India is up to? In my humble opinion, the era of countries moving medium to high tech manufacturing to another country is over.

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## Spectre

Joe Shearer said:


> Start a thread on India's present geo-political options.



Problem India faces is not in terms of volume of options or even quality. Problem is of execution and timing. We can go with Russia and China or with US, Japan and Australia but either way we have to go in for the kill. 

As I said one you set an objective for yourself as NSG was the objective in this case, you pull in all stops - there are no half measures. Problem was NPT - so sign it and then weasel out like China did. 

Other thing which comes to mind is the Marine Case. I was banned so couldn't comment but what a Mess!. If India wanted MTCR so much then why the Drama of arbitration and long court cases? Either you want justice for your fishermen in that case those Marines live and die in India or you want MTCR in which case they should have been let go two years back MTCR would have been pocked without the constant humiliation of rejection. 

Sometimes I wonder if Don Quixote is running our FP


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

bolo said:


> It's a bum deal for China. Allowing China to build nuclear plants mainly benefit India. They experience daily blackout. Building industrial parks mainly benefit India.



Whether or not it benefits India isn't really relevant for us. That's their own concern.

In geopolitics we have to serve our own national interests first.

The question is how much it will benefit China? We are aiming to sell nuclear reactors on a global scale, some countries like Britain and Pakistan and Argentina have already ordered them.

Then after that we will be selling passenger aircraft to the rest of the world, starting with the C919. Good times ahead.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## CorporateAffairs

Change Indian approach or STFU!
perform or perish.


----------



## illuminatidinesh

Spectre said:


> We Indian's still suffer from the British wounds which left us with an herculean chip on the shoulders. Instead of building on our successes and letting others approach us, we look towards getting entry into "clubs" which offer no concrete benefits except for a ego boost.
> 
> Modi made a mistake here, gave in too much for too little and that is still not a crime. Crime was that he "Lost". In such high stakes game, you play to win or you sit one out. World is just too cruel to failures.
> 
> It also dealt a big blow to Indian credibility. How can India promise favors at international geo-politics to other minnow nations when it cannot even pull it's own weight.
> 
> "It is better to be quiet and let other's think you are a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"


It was not a mistake to go for the NSG membership.... If not now tell me when it is? Look around all member execpt one....
How is this a credibility issue for us? its actually credibility boost for us ( even though with the help of US).
Just dont see too much on to this NSG session, some lesson learnt which is better then just sitting aside .
Moreover India doesnt need to promise favours to any other minnows ( not our job- at least till we are at that level) . We need to look after ourself which is exactly we did.


----------



## Spectre

bolo said:


> This will show the world India is more untrustworthy than previously known. @Chinese-Dragon
> 
> The other points you made are valid, but do you not think China know what India is up to? In my humble opinion, the era of countries moving medium to high tech manufacturing to another country is over.



There is nothing wrong in being perceived as untrustworthy. All the great powers are liars and hypocrites. China is openly flouting all international and regulations and so does US but does anyone care? and even if they do - what can they do about it?

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## jung41

imran169 said:


> Its a bit strange that Indian media is targeting only China giving expression that only China is against Indian NSG membership...!
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ndia-nsg-bid-meet-seoul-live-updates-2871865/
> *Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India's NSG bid citing its non-NPT status.*
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rt-to-Indias-NSG-bid/articleshow/52897139.cms
> *Switzerland takes U-turn on its support to India's NSG bid*


Strange pakistanis quoting indian news papers  . Bhai kuch bi kaho present government is a warrior


----------



## illuminatidinesh

Spectre said:


> Other thing which comes to mind is the Marine Case. I was banned so couldn't comment but what a Mess!. If India wanted MTCR so much then why the Drama of arbitration and long court cases? Either you want justice for your fishermen in that case those Marines live and die in India or you want MTCR in which case they should have been let go two years back MTCR would have been pocked without the constant humiliation of rejection.


What makes u think the case with Italians is done with? Maybe the Marine case is done. I think MTCR for couple of Marines is good deal if it worked out that way.


----------



## Spectre

illuminatidinesh said:


> It was not a mistake to go for the NSG membership.... If not now tell me when it is? Look around all member execpt one....
> How is this a credibility issue for us? its actually credibility boost for us ( even though with the help of US).
> Just dont see too much on to this NSG session, some lesson learnt which is better then just sitting aside .
> Moreover India doesnt need to promise favours to any other minnows ( not our job- at least till we are at that level) . We need to look after ourself which is exactly we did.



If we don't promise favors to minnows then why will they back us? And this is why the irish, the kiwis, the nordic and the turks stymied us.


----------



## illuminatidinesh

Spectre said:


> There is nothing wrong in being perceived as untrustworthy. All the great powers are liars and hypocrites. China is openly flouting all international and regulations and so does US but does anyone care? and even if they do - what can they do about it?


yes true .


----------



## imran169

jung41 said:


> Strange pakistanis quoting indian news papers  . Bhai kuch bi kaho present government is a warrior


Lol You Indians will never be happy...I gave Indian sources because your kind don't trust Pakistani or other sources...So it's taste of your own medicine...!


----------



## Spectre

illuminatidinesh said:


> What makes u think the case with Italians is done with? Maybe the Marine case is done. I think MTCR for couple of Marines is good deal if it worked out that way.



If you think so then why not let them go two years ago instead of getting rejected during those years then giving in. It seems like loosing. Lol! Even the Italians bought us to our knees


----------



## illuminatidinesh

Spectre said:


> If we don't promise favors to minnows then why will they back us? And this is why the irish, the kiwis, the nordic and the turks stymied us.


Do you think these nations stand a chance if we had support of China?


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## Mufflerman

China had to fight tooth and nail to deny us. Like Robert plant screams ... How many more times?

By the way if you want to hit China hard, the One vagina policy has to be flushed.

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## jung41

imran169 said:


> Lol You Indians will never be happy...I gave Indian sources because your kind don't trust Pakistani or other sources...So it's taste of your own medicine...!


We trust all sources Bhaijaan .... relax


----------



## AndrewJin

Guynextdoor2 said:


> There is no great pride in knowing that no one wants to stand with you and that no one believes in you. China ain't gonna become great on her own.
> 
> 
> 
> Modi got 40+ countries to support him, you got ZERO.


Congrats!
Victory to win all Amerio's little buddies!
Next time more time on selfies probably will make China moved.



Mentee said:


> So the plot goes like this Miyan sb to Xi don't let india in----Xi no problem amigo----Xi to putin don't support India------Putin what about ma indian checks of lacs n crores ----Xi ok then I cancel all Su35 and other goodies----Putin oh come on Xi give me a break -----ok I got a plan you veto India I'll pat em wink wink  they are not getting in anyway


All powers don't want give it a free seat, sadly China has to be the bad guy.
Anyway, they are all content now.
lol

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## Djinn

Last time China showed a good will gesture towards India by allowing it to have the exclusive waiver and how exactly did India respond? Tested a China specific ICBM.


----------



## Kraitcorp

I am glad India didnt get into the NSG the first time, this helps us to improve further. We got to know who supports and who are against us. In the meantime we need wait a little bit more to enhance our economic clout. 

Missile Technology Control Regime- Check
Nuclear Suppliers Group - Wavier
Wassenaar Arrangement - Need to pursue
Australia Group - Need to pursue
permanent membership to UN Security Council- should be in between 15-20 years


----------



## noksss

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.



So what Pakistan paid you to support them in all the international forum afterall you chinese are businessmen right?


----------



## third eye

Djinn said:


> Last time China showed a good will gesture towards India by allowing it to have the exclusive waiver and how exactly did India respond? *Tested a China specific ICBM*.



Whats a China specific ICBM ??... and what all platforms can that missile be fired from ?


----------



## Guynextdoor2

imran169 said:


> Its a bit strange that Indian media is targeting only China giving expression that only China is against Indian NSG membership...!
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ndia-nsg-bid-meet-seoul-live-updates-2871865/
> *Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India's NSG bid citing its non-NPT status.*
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rt-to-Indias-NSG-bid/articleshow/52897139.cms
> *Switzerland takes U-turn on its support to India's NSG bid*



Tell me buddy, how many of these wanted to support Pakistan


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

AndrewJin said:


> Believe me, next time use the selfie strategy.



Best strategy ever.

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## SrNair

imran169 said:


> Its a bit strange that Indian media is targeting only China giving expression that only China is against Indian NSG membership...!
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ndia-nsg-bid-meet-seoul-live-updates-2871865/
> *Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India's NSG bid citing its non-NPT status.*
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rt-to-Indias-NSG-bid/articleshow/52897139.cms
> *Switzerland takes U-turn on its support to India's NSG bid*



Because this was also one part of our plan .
China directly opposing India was the push India looks for .And Chinese did that ,even though they knows its consequences .Now every action by GoI will have an anti China taste in there .
And more active arms relation with SCS nations especially with Vietnam will happen.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Echo_419 said:


> We don't import anything of strategic value from you & *if you think that there aren't substitutes for electronic components then you are dead wrong*



As I have stated earlier some cognitive inertia are hard to change and delusions are their much needed reality.


To say that China has any control on a "Made in China" product of a non-Chinese company is as retarded as saying
saying that an Indian company built software for major like Microsoft or Google, the Indian company gets to decides where this built product can be exported to.

The only advantage China enjoys in this case is propagating a supply chain cyber attack.

Funny and hilarious that these people mention replacing Chinese electronics is not possible for India.

When already India imports more than half of its $33 billion electronic imports from nations other than China










> *Top ten Chinese exports to India*
> 1. *Electronic equipment: $13.4 billion*
> 2. Machinery: $10.2 billion
> 3. Organic chemicals: $5.9 billion
> 4. Fertilizers: $3.5 billion
> 5. Iron and steel: $2.3 billion
> 6. Plastics: $2.1 billion
> 7. Furniture, lighting, signs: $2 billion
> 8. Medical, technical equipment: $1.5 billion
> 9. Iron or steel products: $1.4 billion
> 10. Vehicles: $1.2 billion


http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_china_exports.html

But for the sake of intellectual sensitivities of Chinese members here lets just pretend entire $235 billion Indian imports is from China.
Even a single "Made in China" product not being exported from China to India will lead to economic collapse of India.

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## danger007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Guess where Samsung phones are made?
> 
> Guess where all the components inside your smartphone, tablet, PC/laptop came from?
> 
> Open them up and look inside.



I hope you read my post once again.. 

Samsung is not chinese company...

http://www.samsung.com/in/aboutsamsung/samsungelectronics/india/manufacturing.html

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## Chinese-Dragon

Syama Ayas said:


> When already India imports more than half of its $33 billion electronic imports from nations other than China



Why don't you go and open up those electronic products, and see where the components come from? 

Open the back of your smartphone and look at the "Made in..." sticker.

Open the back of your laptop, your PC, your tablet. Guess where all the components came from? 



danger007 said:


> I hope you read my post once again..
> 
> Samsung is not chinese company...
> 
> http://www.samsung.com/in/aboutsamsung/samsungelectronics/india/manufacturing.html



True but their products are made in China.

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## Kraitcorp

Syama Ayas said:


> But for the sake of intellectual sensitivities of Chinese members here lets just pretened entire $235 billion is from China.
> A Single "Made in China" product not being exported from China to India will lead to economic collapse of India.


I am sure the BJP govt is making every effort to cut down these imports by introducing 100% FDI. I wonder how many companies have initiated investments. Any info on these


----------



## Djinn

third eye said:


> Whats a China specific ICBM ??... and what all platforms can that missile be fired from ?


Quite amusing how the pain of rejection has caused you Indians to redefine everything now . Enough Said..... kindly find someone else who is bored enough to waste time bickering here.


----------



## CHD

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154330140987139


----------



## third eye

Djinn said:


> Quite amusing how the pain of rejection has caused you Indians to redefine everything now . Enough Said..... kindly find someone else who is bored enough to waste time bickering here.


 Didnt expect anything better.


----------



## SrNair

BetterPakistan said:


> Russia won't go against China.
> Remember China signed $400 billion gas deal with Russia when russian economy suffered badly and China, Russia are seen pretty much on the same page every time, Well lets see for the official news. As far as Russia is concerned, Putin decisions never made sense.



Donot see things happening in Russia through Pakistani p[erspective .
Because none tries to influence Putin's Russia, that including both US and China .


----------



## kabooter_maila

HAIDER said:


> ISLAMABAD: The Nuclear Suppliers Group on Thursday failed to reach consensus on India’s membership application after several members of the international nuclear trade cartel insisted on adhering to Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) condition for admission, thus blocking Delhi’s entry for now, a diplomatic source said.
> 
> The group decided that it would deal with non-NPT states with an even hand, the source added.
> 
> A formal announcement would be made at the conclusion of the NSG’s plenary meeting in Seoul on Friday.
> 
> The countries that opposed India’s application included China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey. To India’s shock, some of the countries that had initially pledged support for its candidature did not do so at the meeting.
> 
> Read: _China snubs India over NSG_
> 
> Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at Carnegie Endowment, tweeted that about a quarter of the 48 member-NSG raised issues about Indian candidature.
> 
> The NSG works through consensus and India would not have been able to make it into the club even if a single country had opposed its application.
> 
> The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.
> 
> India is said to be runnng the largest unsafeguarded nuclear programme with a fissile production capacity 7.7 times greater than that of Pakistan.
> 
> China was the main challenger of the Indian bid, which was being backed by a number of Western countries. Beijing was opposed to giving exception to New Delhi and had been demanding deliberations on the accession of non-NPT countries.
> 
> Indian hopes about ending Chinese opposition had revolved around a meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping on the sidelines of the SCO summit in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. But the interaction did not achieve that and President Xi, even before meeting Mr Modi, told his Pakistani counterpart Mamnoon Hussain that his government would persist with criteria-based approach for the NSG membership.
> 
> India, according to a foreign diplomatic source, was not on the agenda of the plenary meeting, but Japan called for consideration of its application.
> 
> Pakistan’s case was, meanwhile, not taken up by the group on Thursday.
> 
> Pakistan had intensified lobbying for its candidature after it formally launched its application last month. A delegation led by Foreign Secretary Aizaz Chaudhry remained in Seoul during the NSG plenary meeting for continuing that effort.
> 
> The source said the Pakistani delegation met representatives from 25 countries on the sidelines of the session.
> 
> Foreign Office spokesman Nafees Zakaria had earlier said that several NSG members “want detailed discussions within NSG to first agree upon criteria for admission of non-NPT countries to the group with a view to preserving the non-proliferation norms”.
> 
> Pakistan, Mr Zakaria said, would continue to highlight its strong credentials and pursue NSG membership based on non-discriminatory and objective criteria.
> 
> Examine: _India's membership of Nuclear Suppliers Group 'not merited', says NYT_
> 
> He further said that Pakistani and Indian applications cannot be considered in isolation from the goal of maintaining strategic stability in South Asia.
> 
> Zahir Kazmi, an official of the Strategic Plans Division, had a day earlier at a lecture at the Centre for International Strategic Studies (CISS) said Pakistan expected NSG to fairly and simultaneously consider its application along with that of India.
> 
> Zamir Akram, Pakistan’s former envoy to the United Nations in Geneva, had at a roundtable at Strategic Vision Institute said Pakistan was opposed to “exclusive membership” for India and supported evolution of criteria that can be applied across the board.
> 
> _Published in Dawn, June 24th, 2016_


This is a win for justice, equality, and the rule of law. There was a big game of lies,blackmailing,and deception being played in the background. A duo of countries wanted to bulldoze the civilized world and overstep the international law by staging a gatecrash for India's entry into the NSG. Indians kept portraying China as the only opposition to Indian request for NSG membership. The reality was that a dozen other countries were on the same page with China advocating that a criteria based approach must be followed for granting membership to non-NPT signatory applicants. As a result, Indian request was set aside and discussions on Thursday were mainly focused on the need for defining a criteria for dealing applications from such countries. Indians were smiling wide by showing their pale teeth that Pakistan's application didn't even come up for discussion on Thursday . They were unable or unwilling to understood that the members were just trying to trying to follow a procedural approach to deal with two applications from non-NPT signatory countries (i.e. Pakistan and India). They were rather resorting to create propaganda blitz aimed at blackmailing China. The real purpose of Indian lies and blackmail was to turn the show into a US-China tussle. It seems Indians are digging a grave for themselves.

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## imran169

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Tell me buddy, how many of these wanted to support Pakistan


Hey buddy...Tell me did they support India because of India? No, Its because of USA...!




SrNair said:


> Because this was also one part of our plan .
> China directly opposing India was the push India looks for .And Chinese did that ,even though they knows its consequences .Now every action by GoI will have an anti China taste in there .
> And more active arms relation with SCS nations especially with Vietnam will happen.


Lol consequences...Don't over-estimate yourself...You and your conspiracy theories...Please don't quote me again...!

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## TejasMk3

*India’s NSG membership and China’s containment strategy*

RAJESH RAJAGOPALAN


The Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) meeting in Seoul on Thursday (June 23) ended without any decision on India’s application for membership as a consequence of China’s refusal to accept India into the group. India’s chance of being admitted into the NSG were always slim because of China’s opposition. But that was not a reason for not trying. There were excellent reasons for making a high-profile push for NSG membership. Most of the criticisms about both the usefulness of NSG membership itself and about the need for such a high-stakes effort are misplaced. Though India did not get the membership, this will be policy failure only if India fails to respond to what is clearly yet another indicator of China’s determined effort at containment of India.

India does not need NSG membership in order to engage in nuclear commerce, of course. But the NSG makes the rules for such commerce and it is always possible that they can frame rules in future that will hurt India’s interests. There are already questions about some of the rule changes that NSG introduced in 2011 with regard to enrichment and reprocessing technologies, after India got a special waiver from NSG. India can protect itself best only if it is inside the tent. Additionally, India’s road to a partnership in global governance is ill-served if there are governance groups that explicitly leave India out.

Those arguing that India should not have engaged in such a high profile push are also mistaken. India’s choice was to either not apply at all or to make a determined push for membership. There was no middle path here. For at least three reasons, it was impossible for India to simply file an application and not make a serious effort to get in. First, the Indian application required convincing many friendly states who had legitimate concerns about NPT and the nonproliferation regime, concerns that were not motivated by any balance of power considerations (unlike China’s opposition). These countries are wrong to equate support for nonproliferation with just signature on a treaty rather support for the principles of nonproliferation as demonstrated in actual behaviour. But this still required an argument to be made and making this argument to a number of international partners meant that this could no longer be a low-profile effort.

The second reason is even more important. India depended on the US as well as, apparently, a number of other well-wishers to press India’s case with other NSG members and smoothen the way for the application. New Delhi could not very well have asked its friends to press India’s case even as it stood back from the fray. They needed to know that India was doing its bit, even if they had to do much more simply because of their status as members. Moreover, it would have made the task of these well-wishers much more difficult if India itself appeared unmotivated.

The third reason is probably the most important: strategy. Raising the stakes was necessary to concentrate the minds of all the members. Raising the stakes demonstrated to those still uncertain that India was serious about the application and that opposition might come with costs to the broader relationships. Simply put, raising the stakes reduced the opposition.

A policy post-mortem is of course necessary, but we should beware of false tracks that divert such analysis. For example, it would be a mistake to see India’s application as being the victim of a US-China power struggle. The US was involved, undoubtedly, in promoting the Indian case for membership. But the fact that Prime Minister Modi directly raised the issue with President Xi should have made clear to Beijing that it was directly about India and that India would not take its opposition lightly.

A related argument is that China opposition was a response to India’s increasing closeness to US. This is simply wrong. China’s strategy has been consistent since the 1960s and its sole objective was the containment of India. China containment strategy shows little correlation with the state of US-India relations. China transferred nuclear weapons technology to Pakistan in the 1980s, not exactly a period of close US-India ties. It transferred missiles to Pakistan in the 1990s at a time when India had lost its Soviet ally and its relations with the US were still tense. India’s increasing closeness to the US is the result of New Delhi’s reluctant recognition of China’s containment strategy against India, not its cause.

India’s policy will be a failure, however, if New Delhi fails to respond to what is yet another blatant example of China’s containment strategy. India can respond in a number of ways. Because this was primarily a balance of power move, India’s response should also be on that particular chessboard. India can imitate what China is doing with Pakistan: build up the military capabilities of others on China’s periphery who share India’s worry about China. They may be too weak to match China, but enhancing their capabilities is one way of forcing China to divert its energies and make it understand the costs of strategic blowback. This can take the form of military assistance as well as training and other forms of cooperation. India should also ask its existing partners to expand the Malabar naval exercise to include all other countries in the Asia-Pacific that are worried about China. Finally, India should restart the Quadrilateral Strategic Dialogue that was suspended because of China’s objections (and Australian reticence) but seek, once again, to include others such as Vietnam, Philippines and even Indonesia. There are other, more immediate ways of showing displeasure too, such as curtailing levels of engagement with China, or suspending its own strategic dialogue with Beijing.

China had a choice. It should have been an easy one because India’s entry into NSG did not hurt Beijing in any way and opposition threatened to do fairly serious damage to its ties with India. China did not even blink — now, neither should India.

The author is Professor of International Politics at Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi.


What I'm worried is that Indian media instead of focusing on who opposed us, who supported etc i.e analyzing and giving the public what the geo political scenario is, they have started indulging in stupid politics like saying and promoting congi and aaptard lines like "modi fail", "all trips useless" etc. But then perhaps this is asking for too much from mainstream media.


----------



## SrNair

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Thank u Turkey and China........Guys!!! Turkey is also on board with China on this.....As a Pakistani, it is so great to see that our two iron brothers are pursuing merit and defending Pakistan's case and denying India's special privilege in NSG entry.....I m lovin it.....Oh to add more salt.......Thank you Mr. Putin.....Russia is so great, so loving and so nice. I must respect Russia's stance on this.
> 
> As for Indians........Pakistan is reminding you that stopping our f16s was a very poor idea/mistake.....who ever done it in modi's team....Some men do, whole nation sows and cry....
> 
> This is how Indians will be tamed. They ride too much high. Sooner or later, they will behave.....
> 
> Indians are advised to enjoy Logistics agreement with US and join SCS.....It'll do wonders for them....
> 
> A sincere advice from your friendly neighbor Pakistan....
> 
> Regards
> your well wisher
> PakLovesTurkiye




Now wake up from the dream .

This is just a beginning .
Tamed ???Really?

We are just warming up .MTCR is already done .NSG and UNSC will too fall.

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## T90TankGuy

Roybot said:


> Opposing India at every possible platform will only push India further into the American camp. Whether India gets into NSG or not, its a win win situation for America.


It might be that they want that , us going closer to the Americans, while they side up the with Russians. It could be a long game being played by china.


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## Manidabest

ops not only China but other countries too oppose indian entry ... it seems modi mania didnt work with them awwwww....


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## SrNair

imran169 said:


> Hey buddy...Tell me did they support India because of India? No, Its because of USA...!
> 
> 
> 
> Lol consequences...Don't over-estimate yourself...You and your conspiracy theories...Please don't quote me again...!



Conspiracy theories ?
Brahmos is already finalised with Vietnam .God knows about the further decisions of our centre.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

SrNair said:


> Now wake up from the dream .
> 
> This is just a beginning .
> Tamed ???Really?
> 
> We are just warming up .MTCR is already done .NSG and UNSC will too fall.



I wish u gud luck......Just don't forget us..........Pakistan India bhai bhai.......Jahan jaienge saath saath jaienge.....Saath jieynge aur saath marenge......


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## topgun047

When I joined this forum I was a supporter of allying with China over the US.

But China and US have shown by their actions that who is India's friend and who is not.

I would rather see India team up with US (+NA),EU,U.K,Japan,Soko and Asean vs China,Russia than multi alignment crap our policymakers have been peddling for last 70 years that got us nowhere.

That is the direction I forsee India taking.

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## AndrewJin

indno said:


> African countries will make a bid for NSG in the next bid


And they are more likely to get a seat.

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## faithfulguy

AndrewJin said:


> lol
> Good luck with the 2012 supa powa.
> Dead president is smiling at Modi.



It's time for India to make another supa Powa movie after this setback. To make Indians feel better.

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## Brickwall

I think it is best result, this will clear doubts from many people in the country who thinks china can be our ally.

Now only thing , we need to give back china where its hurts, especially in SCS and Taiwan


----------



## SrNair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.




And what do have in your hands to offer us ?
Please dont tell us about some cheap consumer goods .
Because we are looking for top notch technology 

Our dealings with US is just solely based on the quest for world most advanced technology .
What is your stand when it comes to the most advanced tech ?
Even Russians are even better than Chinese .

And about negotiations 
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...n-its-failed-NSG-bid/articleshow/52903910.cms

This is the official response of MEA .

Now you can assume the 'nature' of negotiations between India and China in future


----------



## SrNair

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> I wish u gud luck......Just don't forget us..........Pakistan India bhai bhai.......Jahan jaienge saath saath jaienge.....Saath jieynge aur saath marenge......




You cant forget a diplomatic nuisance .

Pakistan is not even concern in here .


----------



## faithfulguy

AndrewJin said:


> Indu Niclear Orgasmisation is founded! Permanent member of the prestigious standing committee is, 2012 Supuo Pova. And all other parties are vetoed by the Powans


Might as well. Super power genre movies around India will gain popularity with each setback.

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## Chinese-Dragon

SrNair said:


> And what do have in your hands to offer us ?



LOL, the same thing India has been coming to China to ask for, for the past decade?

The NSG seat and the UNSC seat.

We already have a *huge* trade surplus with India every year.

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## bolo

Chinese-Dragon said:


> In geopolitics we have to serve our own national interests first.



That was what I tried to convey. China should and will do things to benefit China. The industrial park, nuclear plants most likely came from Indian side.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746390360419606528


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746390634794098688

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746390252919525376

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746387941023424512

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746386895421083648

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## SrNair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL, the same thing India has been coming to China to ask for, for the past decade?
> 
> The NSG seat and the UNSC seat.
> 
> We already have a *huge* trade surplus with India every year.



NSG waiver already gave us everything .NSG and UNSC seat not going to affect common Indians like us .

It is the world choice whether we want to in or not .If you dont want so be it .You have big nation outside of these group that will show non cooperation when something from that group affects our national interest .
If we are in that group we will give some concession for greater goodness for this world .

And it would be very interesting when we see the further decisions of GoI .


----------



## bolo

danger007 said:


> I hope you read my post once again..
> 
> Samsung is not chinese company...
> 
> http://www.samsung.com/in/aboutsamsung/samsungelectronics/india/manufacturing.html



Sir, majority of shares of Samsung are owned by foreigners. Samsung is more of an international company.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746384994956771332

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746384048235364352

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746379327420440576

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746392087386423301

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746378027399995394

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Kraitcorp said:


> I am sure the BJP govt is making every effort to cut down these imports by introducing 100% FDI. I wonder how many companies have initiated investments. Any info on these


User @PARIKRAMA can help you with that info

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## Shah Xaib

A Year Without 'Made in China
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-books-madeinchina-idUSN2425061320070628

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746329050453516289

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746329372269883396

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746329707537268736

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746328661033312256

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746327687946338304

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## danger007

But china pushing toooo hard ... lets hope for better understanding.. instead of greedy mentality, we have sur plus trade blah blah..



bolo said:


> Sir, majority of shares of Samsung are owned by foreigners. Samsung is more of an international company.
> 
> View attachment 313282




Am not talking about Shares...

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746329776600850433

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746329776600850433

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746328677407948801

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746327687946338304

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746381592361242624

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## bolo

danger007 said:


> But china pushing toooo hard ... lets hope for better understanding.. instead of greedy mentality, we have sur plus trade blah blah..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am not talking about Shares...



Samsung is a publicly traded company. Whoever owns the majority of the shares are the owner(s) of the company. Thus they appoint their board of directors and dictate the future for the company.

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## danger007

bolo said:


> Samsung is a publicly traded company. Whoever owns the majority of the shares are the owner(s) of the company. Thus they appoint their board of directors and dictate the future for the company.




I know about companies but what exactly you are trying to say.. it is still considered as Korean giant..


----------



## Imran Khan

so much chest thumping today man

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## WaLeEdK2

danger007 said:


> I hope you mind your randi laugh.. stfu..



Someone's offended..


----------



## imran169

Lol , I don't know why Indians are over estimating themselves...It was after all USA who assured India of NSG in exchange of God knows what...They Failed...Now what is all the fuss about?

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## mshan44

someone is burning


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## arbit

Chinese are no where to be found, but their bitches have started howling. How predictable. 
On other note, hope this helps crystallise the opinion of common masses who have mostly been ambivalent towards chinese and their businesses in india.

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## AndrewJin

Congrats

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## danger007

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Someone's offended..




Why do i care about any looneytoon who cheer lead like that randi leading...



mshan44 said:


> use burnol it might help your fake randi rona boycott




another looneytoon..

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## WaLeEdK2

danger007 said:


> Why do i care about any looneytoon who cheer lead like that randi leading...



Uh I'm not sure maybe because you bothered quoting me in the first place genius?


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Congrats to China on successfully stalling India's NSG waiver and not submissively giving up to American pressure


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## mshan44

danger007 said:


> Why do i care about any looneytoon who cheer lead like that randi leading...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another looneytoon..


its not us loneytoon its you who are burning and faking up chinese boycott.. if you guys then do it no need to post it here. like we care or anyone wants to see your boycott


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## Chinese-Dragon

Excellent. 

Now take your smartphone, open up the back, and see where the components came from (you should see the "Made in..." sticker right there).

Next, take your tablet, your laptop, your PC, open up the case and check where all the components came from. 

Good luck.

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## bolo

AndrewJin said:


> Congrats


Why are you congratulating India?


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## danger007

mshan44 said:


> its not us loneytoon its you who are burning and faking up chinese boycott.. if you guys then do it no need to post it here. like we care or anyone wants to see your boycott




it is our wish.. who the f.. you are to say.. buffoon or what.. lolz

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## Mitro

Dil mein mat le yaar [emoji12]


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## Grevion

The same happened when China vetoed India's bid to ban Azhar Masood. This will have some serious implications on the Indo-China ties.

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## AndrewJin

bolo said:


> Why are you congratulating India?


When did I say congrats India? I might just congrat selfie lovers.

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## T90TankGuy

kahonapyarhai said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746390360419606528
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746390634794098688
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746390252919525376
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746387941023424512
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746386895421083648


What the hell is thorium tec?

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## Chinese-Dragon

Syama Ayas said:


> Funny and hilarious that these people mention replacing Chinese electronics is not possible for India.



LOL the vast majority of manufactured products in the world are involved with the Chinese supply chain somewhere. Even if it is not a Chinese brand or if it was not made/assembled in China, it's internal components will be. Hell, even the rare earths that every gadget contains are usually sourced from China.

I've heard this cry before many times, but guess what?

India's trade deficit to China keeps increasing year after year.

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## mshan44

danger007 said:


> it is our wish.. who the f.. you are to say.. buffoon or what.. lolz


 your wish was to you to join nsg as well . and guess what you got middle finger from Chinese mighty power. now keep beating the drum of boycott and keep crying as well


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## bolo

litefire said:


> The same happened when China vetoed India's bid to ban Azhar Masood. This will have some serious implications on the Indo-China ties.


Sir, I am still going to say even with all these Indian nationalist rhetorics, China's trade surplus against India will increase when the next quarter is reported.

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## Grevion

jbgt90 said:


> What the hell is thorium tec?


Yeah. That was some idiot who said 5000km bramhos with 'thorium tech'.

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## topgun047

The lines of geopolitical alliances of 21st century are slowly being drawn.
No more non alignment.


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## Silent_Killer

indians are so much emotional.


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## Alpha BeeTee

Pakistan and US are the greatest benificiaries of this ..


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## fsayed

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Now take your smartphone, open up the back, and see where the components came from (you should see the "Made in..." sticker right there).
> 
> Next, take your tablet, your laptop, your PC, open up the case and check where all the components came from.
> 
> Good luck.


My one is made in Thailand

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## The Sandman

What??? Russia opposed india's application but why?


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## DrPuff

We should not boycott but decrease the dependence on foreign things..


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## danger007

mshan44 said:


> your wish was to you to join nsg as well . and guess what you got middle finger from Chinese mighty power. now keep beating the drum of boycott and keep crying as well





dude stop cheerleading don't you feel embarrassed everytime..

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## Grevion

bolo said:


> Sir, I am still going to say even with all these Indian nationalist rhetorics, China's trade surplus against India will increase when the next quarter is reported.


Trade will improve and it should improve. It would be a stupid move if we put restrictions on trade because of this. However there will be more active participation from India in the anti-China alliance and more drills in south China sea no matter how strongly China condemns it.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL the vast majority of manufactured products in the world are involved with the Chinese supply chain somewhere. Even if it is not a Chinese brand or if it was not made/assembled in China, it's internal components will be. Hell, even the rare earths that every gadget contains are usually sourced from China.
> 
> I've heard this cry before many times, but guess what?
> 
> India's trade deficit to China keeps increasing year after year.



Very true my friend.

China has complete power over "Made In China" goods manufactured for a non-Chinese company and also Rare elements sourced from China used in electronics manufactured by other nations.


For example if a rare earth element sourced from China used in manufacturing of electronics for US ICBMs.
CCP leadership can exercise full control over how USA uses, and can demonstrate its control by stating:

"I, the supreme divine heavenly omnipotent authority CCP command you lowly mortals of USA to not use our Chinese extracted rare earth elements in your ICBM electronics "

American leadership will respond to this by saying:

"Yes your highness, we lowly Americans mortals will remove all the electronics containing Chinese extracted rare earth elements right away from our missile targeting you. Just please do not unleash your wrath upon us"


Congrats to your nation on this great achievement

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## PDF

Indians be like:

After being rejected







To China






We do not need China. You should have not messed with us.






India threatening be like

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## danger007

IceCold said:


> SOme Azz is on fire. Loving it.
> 
> Well done China Pakistan





Lolz another


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## Max

nothing new.. Whining have become indian trait.. Keep whining losers


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## Alpha BeeTee

Indians specially the BJP blind worshipers should stop bitching,spare the world from this emotional diarrhea and for once accept that Modi is not the pinnacle of wisdom.He is a man who errs and this time he blundered by creating this whole NSG hysteria and propped up unneccassary emotions and sensation througout India.India was never worthy of the NSG without NPT,this was just US trying to push and bend the rules to go forward with its geopoltical agenda for the region.
Now Modi has to deliver this membership to satisty the ego of his nation and save his face and he will but not before bowing in front of the Chinese and getting blackmailed into giving China the economic favors which India wouldnt ever have given normally.


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## bolo

litefire said:


> Trade will improve and it should improve. It would be a stupid move if we put restrictions on trade because of this. However there will be more active participation from India in the anti-China alliance and more drills in south China sea no matter how strongly China condemns it.



Trade will continue, China will make more money against India. India have no issues with China in SCS but Indian navy continue to conduct navy drills with Vietnamese and Philippines navy flexing its 56 inch chest. India have nothing to gain but more to lose by demonstrating immature stunts.

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## Brickwall

Seems Pakistanis are more worried about Indian reactions then chinese .


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## SrNair

NEW DELHI: India's high energy, high profile campaign to get into the NSG failed Friday morning, as China remained adamantly opposed to even considering the issue.
After a plenary meeting in Seoul, which saw Chinese diplomats attempt to block even a discussion, the 48-member nuclear cartel could not take a decision on India's membership.
A last minute diplomatic outreach by Prime Minister Narendra Modi with Chinese president Xi Jinping also failed to cut any ice.
A big outcome of the NSG failure is that India will now not ratify the Paris Agreement anytime soon. That agreement is a key element of US President Barack Obama's legacy.
The Indian statement says clearly, "An early positive decision by the NSG would have allowed us to move forward on the Paris Agreement." This will be a big blow to the Obama administration which wanted India to ratify the pact so it could enter into force.
It was understood that an NSG membership would help India clear the Paris Agreement.
In the end, diplomats said 38 countries declared outright support for India's accession, while nine others held out questions on procedure. China however maintained its line against India which helped to sway fence-sitters like Ireland, New Zealand and Austria, who pushed for a process and criteria to determine entry of non-NPT countries.
Others like Switzerland spoke about rules of entry but supported India, said sources in the room. China's closest ally was Turkey, they said.
The NSG non-decision on India's membership will have implications for India's bilateral relations with China. While no one was willing to go public, China's open hostility to India's global aspirations is now out in the open, which will make it difficult, coming as it does after China's refusal to sanction terror leader Masood Azhar.
Chinese diplomats exercised a filibuster for the better part of Thursday to block a discussion on India. They only relented to a three-hour discussion on "technical, Legal and Political Aspects of the Participation of non-NPT States in the NSG" on condition that there would be no decision.
Ultimately, it took the joint efforts of the western countries, UK, Germany, France, Australia and US to build in an escape clause for India in the NSG plenary statement. The key sentence there, "Participating Governments reiterated their firm support for the full, complete and effective implementation of the NPT as the cornerstone of the international non-proliferation regime" was amended by some countries to include the word "implementation of the NPT" rather than "adherence" to NPT. This helps India revisit the NSG membership question later this year or the next NSG plenary in Switzerland.
India has maintained that even as a non-NPT nation, it had implemented all NPT commitments.
A less remarked aspect of the NSG meeting was the lack of high level American support for India. Sources in Washington said the Obama administration put some of its middle level bureaucrats to make the necessary calls on India's behalf, which doesn't carry adequate heft. Unlike in 2008, when George Bush and Condoleezza Rice took a personal interest, there was no intervention by either Obama or Kerry. That made it easier for China to maintain its tough position, without adequate pushback from the US.
China's insistence on NPT as criteria was clarified by its senior foreign ministry official, Wang Qun. Speaking to journalists on the sidelines of the NSG, he said, "If exceptions are allowed here or there on the question of NPT, the international non-proliferation order will collapse altogether... NPT is a must. In other words, the applicant state shall be party to the NPT." China has been a major proliferator of nuclear and missile technology to North Korea and Pakistan, so its insistence on NPT as a cornerstone of the non-proliferation regime is ironic.
A dejected MEA pointedly referred to "procedural hurdles persistently raised by one country" behind the NSG impasse. Responding to China's suggestion on the NPT, MEA said, "Our stand on the NPT is well known. But let me underline that in September 2008, the NSG itself addressed this issue. Paragraph 1 (a) of the September 2008 decision states that the decision on India contributes to the "widest possible implementation of the provisions and objectives of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons". There is thus no contradiction between the NPT and India's closer engagement with the NSG."

The Modi government might come in for some flak for the failure to get an NSG decision, especially after mounting such a big campaign. But top level sources in government said, "we tried to the best of our ability, that we consider to be more important."


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ation-may-be-delayed/articleshow/52906697.cms

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## SrNair

Looks like the First casuality of NSG session .

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

bolo said:


> Trade will continue, China will make more money against India. India have no issues with China in SCS but Indian navy continue to conduct navy drills with Vietnamese and Philippines navy flexing its 56 inch chest. India have nothing to gain but more to lose by demonstrating immature stunts.


Then ask your Omnipotent Govt to stop whining about Indian oil exploration in Vietnamese territory.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...uted-South-China-Sea/articleshow/44960780.cms

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## Chinese-Dragon

Syama Ayas said:


> Very true my friend.
> 
> China has complete power over "Made In China" goods manufactured for a non-Chinese company and also Rare elements sourced from China used in electronics manufactured by other nations.
> 
> 
> For example if a rare earth element sourced from China used in manufacturing of electronics for US ICBMs.
> CCP leadership can exercise full control over how USA uses, and can demonstrate its control by stating:
> 
> "I, the supreme divine heavenly omnipotent authority CCP command you lowly mortals of USA to not use our Chinese extracted rare earth elements in your ICBM electronics "
> 
> American leadership will respond to this by saying:
> 
> "Yes your highness, we lowly Americans mortals will remove all the electronics containing Chinese extracted rare earth elements right away from our missile targeting you. Just please do not unleash your wrath upon us"
> 
> 
> Congrats to your nation on this great achievement



LOL, what are you talking about? 

My point is that if you want to safely boycott China, then you can't use any manufactured goods at all. And especially not any electronics.

China's reach is far, we invest all over the world in all sorts of things.

The only way to safely boycott China is to live in a jungle somewhere, wearing leaves and eating coconuts.

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## bolo

Syama Ayas said:


> Then ask your Omnipotent Govt to stop whining about Indian oil exploration in Vietnamese territory.
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...uted-South-China-Sea/articleshow/44960780.cms


The area is disputed that is why China objected. If you truly drilled in Vietnamese territory than there is no issue. However, when China's navy cross the Indian Ocean on international water Indians become wary. One Indian offical quoted, "We are watching their every move."

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## Grevion

bolo said:


> Trade will continue, China will make more money against India. India have no issues with China in SCS but Indian navy continue to conduct navy drills with Vietnamese and Philippines navy flexing its 56 inch chest. India have nothing to gain but more to lose by demonstrating immature stunts.


No one country gains in a multilateral trade. China is in enough trouble in the South China Sea the last thing it wants is to have another axis of power in the south China sea and in the Indian ocean against it. What China did in the UN and now in the NSG was an immature stunt and there will be implications in the relationship between the two.


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## Alpha BeeTee

guy sach said:


> Seems Pakistanis are more worried about Indian reactions then chinese .



Not worried..
Just those pop corns in our hands.
And how you enjoy a comedy show without pop corns..


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## Chinese-Dragon

SrNair said:


> *A big outcome of the NSG failure is that India will now not ratify the Paris Agreement anytime soon. That agreement is a key element of US President Barack Obama's legacy.*



India signed the CISMOA/LSA in return for America giving them an NSG seat.

Unfortunately the USA wasn't able (or was not willing) to give it to them.

But why punish Obama? I'm sure he tried his best.

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## Blue Marlin

oh there goes the chinese economy


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

bolo said:


> The area is disputed that is why China objected. If you truly drilled in Vietnamese territory than there is no issue. However, when China's navy cross the Indian Ocean on international water Indians become wary. One Indian offical quoted, "We are watching their every move."


There is difference between objecting and being wary.

If Indian wariness bothers you so much, ask your Govt not to snoop on our exercises:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160616/jsp/frontpage/story_91520.jsp#.V219u9J96M8

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## Alpha BeeTee

DrPuff said:


> Did you enjoy same way when we got into MTCR?



Didn't give a damn.


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## danger007

WASHINGTON: The US today said that there is "a path forward" for India to become a full member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group by the end of the year, hours after the group's plenary meeting ended in Seoul with no decision on India's membership in face of strong China-led opposition.

"We are confident that we have got a path forward by the end of this year," a top Obama administration official said. 

"It needs some work. But we are confident that India would be a full member of the (NSG) regime by the end of the year," the official told PTI on condition of anonymity. 

Refusing to divulge the discussions and opposition to India's membership within the 48-member grouping, the official said details of the internal deliberations are confidential. 

But the US strongly believes in India's membership in the NSG and the Obama Administration has "worked closely" with New Delhi and other countries on this issues, the official said. 

Without going into details of deliberations, the official referred to a similar discussion within the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) to which India was inducted early this month after months of discussions within its member countries. 

Like NSG, decisions within MTCR is taken with consensus. 

"We expected a discussion on the role that India will play and where it has been," said the official. 

"We were able to end discussion this week and we have a clear path forward for India to become a full member by the end of the year," the official asserted. 

"That's our expectation," the senior administration official reiterated when asked if US expects that India's NSG membership could be achieved by the end of this year. 

"Our expectations is that this would be finished by the end of this year," the official said. 

The NSG ended its plenary meeting in Seoul with no decision on India's membership. 

China, which had made no secret of its opposition, succeeded in scuttling India's bid despite a significant majority backing the Indian case. Thirty-eight countries su

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## Brickwall

Blue Marlin said:


> oh there goes the chinese economy



Its not about Chinese economy, its about Indian perspective, till now many were thinking china could be our ally in longer terms, this NSG stunt has created impression on majority of Indians that Chinese are indeed there to get us, You may not feel pinch immediately but eventually it will sink in.

I hope we just don't throw out our non-alignment principle and get decisive in US favour


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## SrNair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India signed the CISMOA/LSA in return for America giving them an NSG seat.
> 
> Unfortunately the USA wasn't able (or was not willing) to give it to them.
> 
> But why punish Obama? I'm sure he tried his best.




Do you have any proof to back up your claim?
You are saying these CISMOA/LSA things for several times in several threads.Now where is these totally signed deal .

If you are TTA then do act like one .

We wont punish anyone but will balance our decisions to anticipate and adjust .
We only cares about us .

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## rott

Gibbs said:


> A lot of people dont realize how global real politik work, Thats the whole issue here, Global power play doesn't happen according to whims of fancies nationalists in developing countries, It's a whole different ball game.. The US knew all along this wont pass, And China would oppose it.. So they played the good cop, Came out unscratched


You hit the nail, buddy!



Guynextdoor2 said:


> America is number 1. America +India says something 40+ countries countries support it. China says something, not even one country supports it. Everyone thinks you're nuisance. Everyone thinks America is global leader. Never been different before, not gonna be different in future. America is TRUE superpower. China only wannabe.


Hehe... Very emotional rant.



AndrewJin said:


> lol
> Good luck with the 2012 supa powa.
> Dead president is smiling at Modi.


Bro, why bother with them delusional fools? Waste of your time.

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## Chinese-Dragon

SrNair said:


> Do you have any proof to back up your claim?
> You are saying these CISMOA/LSA things for several times in several threads.Now where is these totally signed deal .
> 
> If you are TTA then do act like one .
> 
> We wont punish anyone but will balance our decisions to anticipate and adjust .
> We only cares about us .



Here you go:

LSA, CISMOA, BECA and the Future of the US-India Defense Partnership - The Diplomat

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

@SrNair pay full attention to the article

It clearly states NSG membership of India is directly linked to CISMOA/LSA 

Also the acronym "NSG" has been found multiple times in the article.

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## danger007

@Chinese-Dragon @JD_In

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## bolo

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The only way to safely boycott China is to live in a jungle somewhere, wearing leaves and eating coconuts.



I spat tea all over my keyboard after reading this

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## Indika

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Here you go:
> 
> LSA, CISMOA, BECA and the Future of the US-India Defense Partnership - The Diplomat


India never signed the agreement as it is, it was tweaked to fit in its requirements to ensure Indias strategic autonomy which made the agreement not even worth the paper it was signed upon. 

Now all along India was just a fence sitter as far as US-China relation ship was concerned. But with NSG saga every thing will change.

1) Americans will get pissed of that they could not push through and get what they wanted. Other countries in the region might no longer see US as a dependable ally. Which inturn will lead to US getting more aggressive to retain its clout.

2) With a big country like India not in NSG ,India does not see any need to respect global institutions so will other countries. UN and other agencies will only exist on paper. Their efficacy will erode and over a period of time it will collapse.

It is just like what happened before WW2.

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## randomradio

It's natural that we will hold up Climate talks if we are not allowed entry into the NSG. How do we look at alternate power supplies if we are denied some of them?



Chinese-Dragon said:


> India signed the CISMOA/LSA in return for America giving them an NSG seat.



Wow. Is that all it takes for China's support for NSG? CISMOA and LSA are nothing.

CISMOA allows the US to sell their communication devices to us. India's not signed the CISMOA. So the American aircraft we have been buying come with Indian radios. The only advantage is when we exercise together, we can communicate with the Americans directly. It does not have much relevance anywhere else.

And LSA allows Indian and US ships to refuel at their respective bases on credit. Right now it's being done by paying on the spot. It's a logistics agreement to use each other's bases for non-military supplies like fuel and food. If an Indian ship refuels at Okinawa for 2000 tons and an American ships does the same in India for 3000 tons, then the Americans pay for the difference of 1000 tons. India's agreement is called LEMOA because it has escape clauses for India during war. Meaning it is a peacetime agreement. But it will allow Indian ships to operate for a long periods of time in the Pacific Ocean (including SCS, ECS, Sea of Japan etc) without having to go back home to refuel and US ships to operate longer in the IOR.

BECA allows the use of US military satellite data, like GPS and maps. 

CISMOA and BECA are simply agreements required to use their technology. It doesn't affect India negatively. LEMOA is merely a logistics agreement for non-military supplies.

These are very simple basic agreements. We are yet to sign any of these. At best only the LEMOA will be signed in the near future. The DTTI officials have said that the foundational agreements would help if signed but are not necessary for military cooperation.

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## Thunder-17

guy sach said:


> Its not about Chinese economy, its about Indian perspective, till now many were thinking china could be our ally in longer terms, this NSG stunt has created impression on majority of Indians that Chinese are indeed there to get us, You may not feel pinch immediately but eventually it will sink in.
> 
> I hope we just don't throw out our non-alignment principle and get decisive in US favour


China has no reason to placate you. China knows very well that there is no 'Indian perspective', like there is no equatorian perspective. India is not a country, its a geographical area masquerading as a fake country, and china knows that pretty well. China can get away with it because India is a dysfunctional land of many countries held together by the threat of force. It doesn't have a single solid foreign policy direction. It just does things as time moves along, that's all.

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## Johny D

Big political game is going on, before China understands one, another is going to start....no matter the role of India but the ultimate beneficiary is going to be India, directly! 

One thing one should understand very clear and loud...there is no historical system like NSG, MTCR, UNSC which would be solely dependent on countries like China unless US OR Russia backs it! China is overestimating itself by its last two decades of economic growth..but if you see, at global stage, china is not respected for its human rights crimes and not been accepted as developed nation yet..though many chinese already living in Munich on PDF...its only been lucky to got inducted into UNSC and NSG because of timing....But, when the US and Russia (big rivals) support common friend like India (which is highly unlikely for other nation), no other power can stop them...and when it comes to the profile of India, world has acknowledged it as impeccable and the result, no wonder, 47 out of 48 supported India!!

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## PaklovesTurkiye

DrPuff said:


> You seem to hate hindus too much including Muslim fellows liked your commemt. When people lack balls then they bring religion. you are not in a condition to do constructive debate



Indians are embarrassing themselves. Along with China, lot of other countries opposed India's bid and supported China's stance but Indians are shamelessly singling out China...Never knew they hate China that much if i read comments of Indians over here and in Indian media articles...

It is a game b/w China and US. India is just a pawn.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

@danger007 put the link for your article, or some Indo-phobic think tank will find an excuse to give your post a negative rating.

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## Indika

Enough of this crap on depending on others. If we want one we will get one by acting like one. Asking US to do our job was ridiculous. 

China goes about proliferating while India being a good boy gets spanked. Its high time India started to do what is good for it instead of adhering to stupid useless institutions and self imposed rules.


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## DrPuff

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Indians are embarrassing themselves. Along with China, lot of other countries opposed India's bid and supported China's stance but Indians are shamelessly singling out China...Never knew they hate China that much if i read comments of Indians over here and in Indian media articles...
> 
> It is a game b/w China and US. India is just a pawn.


Lol why are you singing china china throughout the time? you are a Pakistani not a Chinese. What has your country got? We got more than 90% country's support.. If we are embarrassing ourselves it's not your problem.. We saw china on masood azar issue.. So we know what they actually wanted.... it's obvious to us but not might be to you which we hardly care..


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## PaklovesTurkiye

DrPuff said:


> Lol why are you singing china china throughout the time? you are a Pakistani not a Chinese. What has your country got? We got more than 90% country's support.. If we are embarrassing ourselves it's not your problem.. We saw china on masood azar issue.. So we know what they actually wanted.... it's obvious to us but not might be to you which we hardly care..



You r new member over here......You'll mature up as time passes. You didn't get anything, It was due to US you were able to have such support. Pakistanis, like other countries, just want to have some merit regarding NSG entry.

So stop chest thumping and go to sleep. I know Indians are rolling in their beds with anger despite so much thankless dance, selfies, hugging all around the world. It must be painful. 

Pak Cheen dosti Zindabad....Pak Turkey dosti Zindabad....

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## Johny D

indno said:


> If signing NPT is mandatory as per international law then Obama is illegally backing India for NSG group ?


that was not the international law..it was the rule drawn up by a group nations giving them the flexibility to change it with consensus in group when required..


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## Johny D

indno said:


> Why is India not signing NPT. Simple question.


India will sign it, just accept India as Nuclear Power State and member of UNSC on par with existing 5...after all we are the second largest populist nation on the earth and hold substantial pie in the world economy which is growing so fast!


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## Gibbs

CorporateAffairs said:


> Big win for China, Pak combo.
> Loser USA.



Kudos.. A rare Indian poster with somewhat accurate view on this, But i'd say even the US came out well unscathed.. They played the cards well.. They always knew China will veto this hence played the good guys and did'nt have to play dirty.. As i mentioned elsewhere if Kerry really wanted this to happen he would have.. Next time it will be even more difficult for India without being a signatory to the NPT, The failure this time ensured that.. US had the last laugh at the expense of Indian diplomacy

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## DrPuff

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> You r new member over here......You'll mature up as time passes. You didn't get anything, It was due to US you were able to have such support. Pakistanis, like other countries, just want to have some merit regarding NSG entry.
> 
> So stop chest thumping and go to sleep. I know Indians are rolling in their beds with anger despite so much thankless dance, selfies, hugging all around the world. It must be painful.
> 
> Pak Cheen dosti Zindabad....Pak Turkey dosti Zindabad....


If it's due to US effort we got support then what china did about the major nations supporting India?? There is a lack of Chinese influence on those countries???
BTW Except Chinese those who hasn't supported India gave the reason that India is a non NPT signed nation & asked for a major revamp on inclusion of new members to NSG including turkey & also given assurance there will be probability of India's inclusion till year ends.. get it???
But fact is nobody bats an eye about Pakistan except china.. So what are you taking fun about???


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## fsayed

indno said:


> If signing NPT is mandatory as per international law then Obama is illegally backing India for NSG group ?


France was inducted without npt


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## Johny D

indno said:


> My main point: Obama is illegally backing countries who have not signed NPT


France had not signed NPT before got inducted into NSG! So, there is always an exception...everywhere..!

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## fsayed

indno said:


> Why is India not signing NPT. Simple question. If India's nuclear program is peaceful then India must sign NPT without hesitation.


It's my country choice


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## zebra7

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Now take your smartphone, open up the back, and see where the components came from (you should see the "Made in..." sticker right there).
> 
> Next, take your tablet, your laptop, your PC, open up the case and check where all the components came from.
> 
> Good luck.



I did and found that most of the electronic components were fabricated in Indonesia, Tiawan, South Korea. But the mother board was printed Made in China. Its a matter of Supply and Demand, aka whenever there is a demand, the Supply source would be created, and when the supply demand arises, and the Cheaper source becomes costlier than the local source, due to higher taxes, the local source, will fulfill the demand. 

We too have the market, and our Industry though not big as our eastern one, but not floating on the Bank Loans and depends on the high supply rate to survive due to low margin. Only three words for you.

1. 25 percentage of the workforce of the whole world, and comparatively younger. --- Supply
2. Make In India, Skill India, highest FDI --- Change in the Trend..
3. Huge market, with big Middle class people --- Demand

It could be the matter of time, when the tag Made in China would be replace by Made in India.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

jbgt90 said:


> It might be that they want that , us going closer to the Americans, while they side up the with Russians. It could be a long game being played by china.


Current Chinese think tanks consider they are in a position to take on US itself and replace them as sole superpower.

So doesn't matter to them that India joins USA camp.

Chinese had plans to use India as counterweight to USA and Soviets back in 1970s, that was a long time ago.



CorporateAffairs said:


> Big win for China, Pak combo.
> Loser USA.



How is USA a loser here?

The NSG waiver they got us allows the Indo-US nuke deal to continue and US nuclear reactors to be exported to India.Also increase of Indian nuclear weapon stockpile targeting China, which benefits USA even more.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

indno said:


> If signing NPT is mandatory as per international law then Obama is illegally backing India for NSG group ?



YES....

This statement of US made me laugh. It can be an attempt to become good guy in eyes of Indians. I mean, they knew since beginning that China will oppose India due to merit and geopolitical issues yet they cleverly backed India. So, that even if failed, US still earn goodwill and become a true buddy in eyes of Indians. Now, US may be expecting Indians to move more closer to her. 

Signing of Logistics agreement with US was a bad idea. China openly reacted to it. And Russia might be not happy either but they can't react like China did due to their relations with India. As Dawn report says, Russia also opposed India's entry.

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## Silent_Killer

DrPuff said:


> Pakistan doesn't consider itself a country cause Pakistan has no foreign policy..


We do have solid foreign policy, we are well aware of our enemies and our friends. But its your country which is acting immaturely you guys claim russia to be your allies but on the same time you are ditching them by joining hands with USA. Your country is meddling into southern chinese seas where you have no business. And soothing the anti chinese elements, and on other hand wanting them to support you in NSG matter.


DrPuff said:


> You are just feeded by military funded media & babble what they want..


Oh really, the very same media which spew so much hatred against Pak army, how can that be funded by Pak army?


DrPuff said:


> Your country resembles to a single state of India & still unable maintain law & order.


We have terrorists problems. So what, i ask you a question which country is safe from terrorists activities. We just happens to be a country which resides next to afghanistan and you dont, you guys are so much lucky in this regards. Just imagine if there was no Pakistan and you happens to be the neighbor of afghanistan. Then what might have happened to your country?


DrPuff said:


> *Terrorists & mullahs want freedom*.I think what you said suits more to Pakistan.. .


LOL this part of your comment really raises concerns about how much average indian really is aware of the issue of terrorism. My sincere advise to you my friend, stay away from the matters which you dont know.


DrPuff said:


> You are listed as a failed nation & it is for a reason..


We were told from the very beginning that we cant survive this new country will merge with india. And here we are its 2016.
And we were told that Pakistan will never be able to make nuclear bombs. And here we are a country which has fully operative nukes.
And more over we were told that terrorists are just few km away from islamabad. They will capture the capital. And here we are defeated terrorists, killed so many of those indian aided terrorists. And now they are running towards afghanistan to their financial supporters india.


DrPuff said:


> After 1947 you got divided, we didn't....


Time has changed. Its 2016, we are way more powerful than we were in past. And more importantly we have good strong friends which we can trust. While you guys are surrounded with the countries which are in critical of you.

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## fsayed

indno said:


> Governments, presidents and prime ministers are doing illegal deals and they want worldwide people to be law abiding citizens ?


Have sprite clear hai

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## arbit

indno said:


> My main point: Obama is illegally backing countries who have not signed NPT



completely agree. The crackpot obama. You must bomb him

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## PaklovesTurkiye

DrPuff said:


> If it's due to US effort we got support then what china did about the major nations supporting India?? There is a lack of Chinese influence on those countries???
> BTW Except Chinese those who hasn't supported India gave the reason that India is a non NPT signed nation & asked for a major revamp on inclusion of new members to NSG including turkey & also given assurance there will be probability of India's inclusion till year ends.. get it???
> But fact is nobody bats an eye about Pakistan except china.. So what are you taking fun about???



I have personally nothing against India or Indians. I was pointing out that u just overplayed and overestimated yourselves. When u create such a hype, you must be confident of win otherwise if objective failed then the more hype the more embarrassment comes. 

Better luck next time......

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## zebra7

DrPuff said:


> We should not boycott but decrease the dependence on foreign things..



Only thing needed is to increase the Import tax on the Chinese goods, investment on the innovative technology development like the South Korean Model. One good hit on the global market would bring the so called Chinese Industry to the reality.

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## Silent_Killer

zebra7 said:


> *It could be the matter of time, when the tag Made in China would be replace by Made in India*.


That means you guys are still dependent over chinese products.


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## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> YES....
> 
> This statement of US made me laugh. It can be an attempt to become good guy in eyes of Indians. I mean, they knew since beginning that China will oppose India due to merit and geopolitical issues yet they cleverly backed India. So, that even if failed, US still earn goodwill and become a true buddy in eyes of Indians. Now, US may be expecting Indians to move more closer to her.
> 
> Signing of Logistics agreement with US was a bad idea. China openly reacted to it. And Russia might be not happy either but they can't react like China did due to their relations with India. As Dawn report says, Russia also opposed India's entry.




It is not the matter about good boy or bad boy...It is about need and benefits.. India needs more nuclear fuel for future demands... despite having large stockpile of thorium.. US will get good bucks... we will get what we need.. US is more influential than the china... probably china can delay the process for more time... but it can't block India forever.. even china and Turkey push Pakistan.... highly unlikely to get NSG... India have better opportunity..

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## Johny D

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> YES....
> 
> This statement of US made me laugh. It can be an attempt to become good guy in eyes of Indians. I mean, they knew since beginning that China will oppose India due to merit and geopolitical issues yet they cleverly backed India. So, that even if failed, US still earn goodwill and become a true buddy in eyes of Indians. Now, US may be expecting Indians to move more closer to her.
> 
> Signing of Logistics agreement with US was a bad idea. China openly reacted to it. And Russia might be not happy either but they can't react like China did due to their relations with India. As Dawn report says, Russia also opposed India's entry.


Half true, you are right in your analysis that US played a game BUT to prove two things - First: China is an hostile and irresponsible nation which doesn't get along with majority so isolate it.... Second:India is supported by majority and US blanketly supports India at high tables internationally, thus attempted to bring India more closer to it to fix China!

Regarding Signing of Logistics agreement with US - We give a damn to what china thinks about it, we might not openly say it but it is just a response to what China has been doing around Indian sub cont...more responses on its way, so be ready china! Who had ever thought from China or Pak that India will be a party in South China sea dispute! India has the required leadership now, mind it!

Regarding Russia - Dawn analyst was wrong, Russia never opposed India, at least openly!

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## zebra7

Silent_Killer said:


> And we were told that Pakistan will never be able to make nuclear bombs. And here we are a country which has fully operative nukes.



This thought really make me feel, the ironical Fear of the Pakistan from the birth, that India always wants to destroy Pakistan.


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## fsayed

Good move by india must suspend Paris climate agreement and modi must start trade barriers on Chinese made product. India should open diplomatic relations with Taiwan . Start free Baluchistan campaign. Sell missile to Vietnam and other southeast Asian countries


Chinese-Dragon said:


> India signed the CISMOA/LSA in return for America giving them an NSG seat.
> 
> Unfortunately the USA wasn't able (or was not willing) to give it to them.
> 
> But why punish Obama? I'm sure he tried his best.


@nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @Stephen Cohen @anant_s

@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @ranjeet

@GURU DUTT @HariPrasad
@SrNair

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## Uzair Shafiq [Босс]

Wow...
How stupid can you get?


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## PaklovesTurkiye

danger007 said:


> It is not the matter about good boy or bad boy...It is about need and benefits.. India needs more nuclear fuel for future demands... despite having large stockpile of thorium.. US will get good bucks... we will get what we need.. US is more influential than the china... probably china can delay the process for more time... but it can't block India forever.. even china and Turkey push Pakistan.... highly unlikely to get NSG... India have better opportunity..





JD_In said:


> Half true, you are right in your analysis that US played a game BUT to prove two things - First: China is an hostile and irresponsible nation which doesn't get along with majority so isolate it.... Second:India is supported by majority and US blanketly supports India at high tables internationally, thus attempted to bring India more closer to it to fix China!
> 
> Regarding Signing of Logistics agreement with US - We give a damn to what china thinks about it, we might not openly say it but it is just a response to what China has been doing around Indian sub cont...more responses on its way, so be ready china! Who had ever thought from China or Pak that India will be a party in South China sea dispute! India has the required leadership now, mind it!
> 
> Regarding Russia - Dawn analyst was wrong, Russia never opposed India, at least openly!



Lets see what happens!!! But again you are singling out China which is wrong and unfair......What about other countries?

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## zebra7

Silent_Killer said:


> That means you guys are still dependent over chinese products.



No body is dependent over any one. You failed to read my whole post -- specially demand and supply, and China is the one who is at the supply end not due to quality but due to cost. There could be many factor -- One is the One Party who is ruling China, where the decission could be made too quickly than the democratic govt. And the country you are obsessed with, let me give you, what good you did after your creation -- to kick the Communists out of country immediately.


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## Johny D

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Lets see what happens!!! But again you are singling out China which is wrong and unfair......What about other countries?


Can u pls explain how we are singling out China? China itselt has singled out itself by not supporting the higher end of majority...their views were completely biased and childish ..


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## Indika

fsayed said:


> Good move by india must suspend Paris climate agreement and modi must start trade barriers on Chinese made product. India should open diplomatic relations with Taiwan . Start free Baluchistan campaign. Sell missile to Vietnam and other southeast Asian countries


Its tibet that will make the biggest difference. India is just closing its eye to reality and acting stupid. Nothing is gained without taking any risk. china arms the NE militants and gets away with it. Their every action should have a price to pay.

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## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Lets see what happens!!! But again you are singling out China which is wrong and unfair......What about other countries?




See if china doesn't want Non NPT signatories into NSG then it would be different... but china saying If India get into NSG pakistan should also get... isn't it double standards??? moreover pak looking towards NSG just because of India wants to Supplier group... as India getting we should get... the fact pak not prepared for NSG ... where incase India, to fill our future needs and to limit the pollution due to Thermal plants..


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## Jzaib

i think it is not indian defeat . it is actually US defeat . India is growing stronger. instead of posting stupid things . u should cheer up that came that close to getting NSG


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## mshan44

danger007 said:


> dude stop cheerleading don't you feel embarrassed everytime..


well i think you should be feeling embarrassed now.. when you were so excited that no one can stop you from joining nsg. but the real fact is whenever you go to sleep you dream india is only mighty super power in asia. but its totaally opposite and you find out the truth when you wake up from your dream.


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## SamantK

Syama Ayas said:


> @SrNair pay full attention to the article
> 
> It clearly states NSG membership of India is directly linked to CISMOA/LSA
> 
> Also the acronym "NSG" has been found multiple times in the article.

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## danger007

mshan44 said:


> well i think you should be feeling embarrassed now.. when you were so excited that no one can stop you from joining nsg. but the real fact is whenever you go to sleep you dream india is only mighty super power in asia. but its totaally opposite and you find out the truth when you wake up from your dream.




lol  you are funny.. pom pom


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## BetterPakistan

SrNair said:


> Donot see things happening in Russia through Pakistani p[erspective .
> Because none tries to influence Putin's Russia, that including both US and China .



Really? If you think Russia will back you against China than you guys are mistaken.


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## Silent_Killer

zebra7 said:


> No body is dependent over any one. You failed to read my whole post -- specially demand and supply, and China is the one who is at the supply end not due to quality but due to cost. There could be many factor -- One is the One Party who is ruling China, where the decission could be made too quickly than the democratic govt. And the country you are obsessed with, let me give you, what good you did after your creation -- to kick the Communists out of country immediately.


If you want a certain thing from a certain country then you probably have picked that country to get that certain thing for some obvious reasons. The people of india are importing things from china is certainly because they need those things. And they find that market to be ideal or better than the others and that may be the reason behind getting the things from that country. If you go to market where they are selling some stuffs of low cost and at least with better qualities with many other markets then one will buy things from that market given that there is no market around to get things of low price and good quality. If you are planning to overlook it then what is your "replacement". Can you afford to buy costly things from other markets will this not gonna effect your budget.


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## itachii

BetterPakistan said:


> Really? If you think Russia will back you against China than you guys are mistaken.



and you think russia will oppose India for china ?? if so, then good luck with the thought


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## PaklovesTurkiye

JD_In said:


> Can u pls explain how we are singling out China? China itselt has singled out itself by not supporting the higher end of majority...their views were completely biased and childish ..



China was not alone. Brazil, Turkey, Switzerland, Zealand, Ireland......According to Dawn, there were quarter of 48 countries that raised objected on India's entry.........China is everywhere, No body can isolate China even Chinese can't....They have penetrated every corner of world.....Too big to be isolated.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1266838

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...in-the-case-of-india/articleshow/52899535.cms

Whole NSG seems to be ok with China, Turkey and other opposing countries' stance....

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## mshan44

danger007 said:


> lol  you are funny.. pom pom


your pom pom wont hide the embarrassment for indians who were commenting even on dawn news that mark my words india wil be in nsg on 24th june. yes they are in nsg but only in indian news )

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## SamantK

bolo said:


> I spat tea all over my keyboard after reading this


yeah, we must safely boycott their stuff cause it will blow as soon as its used within India. No matter who brought it in India!

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## PaklovesTurkiye

danger007 said:


> See if china doesn't want Non NPT signatories into NSG then it would be different... but china saying If India get into NSG pakistan should also get... isn't it double standards??? moreover pak looking towards NSG just because of India wants to Supplier group... as India getting we should get... the fact pak not prepared for NSG ... where incase India, to fill our future needs and to limit the pollution due to Thermal plants..



NO. It can't be double standard. China is saying that whether follow the rule regarding entry of non signatory of NPT or allow everyone to be in NSG, including Pakistan obviously as Pakistan has applied too despite not signing of NPT......

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## itachii

mshan44 said:


> your pom pom wont hide the embarrassment for indians who were commenting even on dawn news that mark my words india wil be in nsg on 24th june. yes they are in nsg but only in indian news )



lol, we didn't make it to NSG, now tell me what did we lose ?


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## Nilgiri

Rain Man said:


> I didn't say stop all trade, did I? I said 'cut down' the imports that we can without any problem to us. And it will be cut down now for sure. You start a trade war and lose the rest, in any case who do you think stands to lose more in a trade war between India and China? The one which is enjoying the trade imbalance in their favour, right? That Trade deficit happened in last 10 years or so, and it can be reversed. Your government will get the hint within a month.



It's why I said every import category must be analysed as to its importance in any supply chain within India. They seem to be skipping this important fact. There is not going to be a blanket ban, but a selective strategic one dependent on how many and quality of Indian jobs any imported item supports.

I mean India already imposed large anti-dumping duties on Chinese steel a couple times (and much lower than other countries have, since Indian steel is quite cost-effective)...and that too steel is an intermediate that supports a lot of manufacturing in India (automobiles, auto parts, construction) so all of these could have simply benefited if we just let cheap chinese steel in as is and sacrifice all the steel worker jobs (if they are much lower in number compared to the manufacturing jobs that would have been created).

But in the overall analysis, Indian govt felt that steelworker jobs were worth saving and imposed the duties.

Now one can imagine what other sectors such analysis will also be opened up for now if China keeps being stubborn about the NSG. The first easy target is really going to be the cheap consumer items made from plastics....given the high price elasticity of supply for those (i.e relatively easy to transfer suppliers by pricepoint to even domestic ones...which will also help make in india program). There are others too.

Indian exports if China takes a trade war approach will not suffer as much in USD terms....because most of them are raw products that we really should not be exporting in the first place. Buckle up, switch them to internal consumption (it will help reduce prices because of the larger supply available)....and watch the trade deficit decline with time and China's overcapacity get punished even more.

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## BetterPakistan

itachii said:


> and you think russia will oppose India for china ?? if so, then good luck with the thought



Everyone will believe it accept you guys. Don't worry i understand what you guys are suffering from today.


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## Jzaib

Great Sachin said:


> Wow...I wonder who is losing here India or China....
> 
> *Even Pakistan's close friend Turkey is supporting India...*
> 
> I can say only one thing .....Jai ho
> 
> 
> Look what awkward position Pakistan put China into...not a single country backing China


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## mshan44

you lost the everything. you was trying to show pakistan that you can do anything and we proved you wrong and embarrassed you in front of whole world. when you kept saying that all countries want you to be in nsg and many changed their position and took a u turn. that is a big blow to india


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## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> China was not alone. Brazil, Turkey, Switzerland, Zealand, Ireland......According to Dawn, there were quarter of 48 countries that raised objected on India's entry.........China is everywhere, No body can isolate China even Chinese can't....They have penetrated every corner of world.....Too big to be isolated.
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1266838
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...in-the-case-of-india/articleshow/52899535.cms
> 
> Whole NSG seems to be ok with China, Turkey and other opposing countries' stance....



others are questioning about the process to accept India bid apart china.. who is blocking .. 38 members said YES.. 9 seeking clarification and process..



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> NO. It can't be double standard. China is saying that whether follow the rule regarding entry of non signatory of NPT or allow everyone to be in NSG, including Pakistan obviously as Pakistan has applied too despite not signing of NPT......



It is double standard. when china questioning to admit India as non signatory of NPT... then how can it ask accept Pakistan...


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## itachii

BetterPakistan said:


> Everyone will believe it accept you guys.



lol, its not about belief but your wish that russia ditches India, the same way how US ditched you, but, that is not going to happen. At a max, russia might stay neutral and don't take sides nothing more.


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## BetterPakistan

itachii said:


> lol, its not about belief but your wish that russia ditches India, the same way how US ditched you, but, that is not going to happen. At a max, russia might stay neutral and don't take sides nothing more.



Keep on thinking it.

US ditched us really? nothing new because everytime they are going to need Pak, they will come to us.. But today China ditched you hard


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## Silent_Killer

itachii said:


> lol, we didn't make it to NSG, now tell me what did we lose ?


Most importantly you guys have lost your precious time by posting those boycottchinese Product tags. 
These whining wont gonna effect china nor will your entry to nsg will effect us that much. 
And by the way our entry to nsg is also ambiguous but compare your country mens reaction with ours. There were so many countries who opted to go against pakistan and voted for india, US was one of them to whom we worked for so many decades. And by your reaction it seems as if you guys have lost alot.


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## itachii

BetterPakistan said:


> Keep on thinking it.



lol, if only you had any idea about india-russia relations..




BetterPakistan said:


> But today China ditched you hard



It was bound to happen and china made its stand known that it is against the rise of India, this will have its own repercussions and will erode the soft corner that chinese had in Indians.


BTW, what is in it for your joy ? India will be there tomorrow if not today. same can't be said about pak.


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## Centurion2016

India is rising power and perhaps the only real counterweight to China in nazia outside of Japan. 

China is flexing muscle now


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## BetterPakistan

itachii said:


> lol, if only you had any idea about india-russia relations..



I had idea about it but I had knowledge about Russa-China relations too.



itachii said:


> It was bound to happen and china made its stand known that it is against the rise of India, this will have its own repercussions and will erode the soft corner that chinese had in Indians.



You are free to think whatever you want.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Nilgiri said:


> ....and watch the trade deficit decline with time and China's overcapacity get punished even more.




Wow, that sounds amazing.

India has been complaining (for over a decade) about the trade deficit to China, but the trade deficit keeps increasing every year.

The more they complain, the bigger the deficit gets.

What's going on?

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## zebra7

Silent_Killer said:


> If you want a certain thing from a certain country then you probably have picked that country to get that certain thing for some obvious reasons. The people of india are importing things from china is certainly because they need those things. And they find that market to be ideal or better than the others and that may be the reason behind getting the things from that country. If you go to market where they are selling some stuffs of low cost and at least with better qualities with many other markets then one will buy things from that market given that there is no market around to get things of low price and good quality. If you are planning to overlook it then what is your "replacement". Can you afford to buy costly things from other markets will this not gonna effect your budget.



That could be the case for the country, where the consumer are less, and the number of order would be less, but for India, the Indian Market is huge. For example We all know, there are only few refractories for manufacturing ICs, the smaller but the basic building blocks of the consumer products and for ordering few of them would be costly, but if those are ordered in bulk, the cost would be minimum. The Plus points for the China is the chain of the suppliers readily available and the stockists, which could supply the components in a matter of few hours, and in India those could takes several days. Another thing, is the Banks of China are readily giving the loans for setting up new company or factory, but in India, the Banks the paperworks and norms are too stringents, thus its difficult for the new company to setup which needs high setup or initial cost to setup. But if the Import duty in increased to an extend, that would make the consumer product cost increase for some time, but will give enough time, for the local industry to stand, so that it could compete with the International companies. Another things, which is lagging to increase the budget and investment on the new and innovative ideas, that's why I mentioned South Korean Model, where 4 percentage of the GDP goes on the Development and Technologies. The FDI can bring, large amount of funds needed, which is needed in large quantity though. Problem is that any change in the system, will have high resistance, and the internationally Certified Skill personals, which the foriegn investments would demand. For those two, PM Modi, played and is playing his part, he has visited several countries, to seek FDI, and the innitiative like *Skill India. In Layman term, suppose there is person who has 20 years of experience of making Shoe upper, he knew his job perfectly, but don't have the Internationaly recognised Certificate*, the Skill India program, will give them that certificate, and link them with its Adhaar Card, so that the International company suppose needed 1000 worker of that desired skill, could choose them from the list. Problem comes for those LALA company, which is paying him 5000 rupees salary, now by rule of the company like Woodland to pay 20000 rupees plus medical insurance plus transportation plus helmet, glooves and the working environment, will now have to increase the Salary.

India have everything -- Cheaper Workforce, High number of technicians and Engineers, Raw Material, and most important Market.



Silent_Killer said:


> Most importantly you guys have lost your precious time by posting those boycottchinese Product tags.
> These whining wont gonna effect china nor will your entry to nsg will effect us that much.
> And by the way our entry to nsg is also ambiguous but compare your country mens reaction with ours. There were so many countries who opted to go against pakistan and voted for india, US was one of them to whom we worked for so many decades. And by your reaction it seems as if you guys have lost alot.



Out of 48 members of the NSG, 38 countries broadly backed India. The others said that before a decision can be taken on India, the nuclear bloc must first establish criteria that will be used equally for any applicants who have not signed the non-proliferation treaty.

*Our stand on the NPT is well known. But let me underline that in September 2008, the NSG itself addressed this issue. Paragraph 1 (a) of the September 2008 decision states that the decision on India contributes to the "widest possible implementation of the provisions and objectives of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons". There is thus no contradiction between the NPT and India's closer engagement with the NSG."*

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## PaklovesTurkiye

indno said:


> If India gets into NSG without signing NPT then Pakistan will also enter NSG without signing NPT and Pakistan nuclear materials can go into the hands of Iran, North Korea.
> 
> Basically India is encouraging transfer of nuclear materials into the hands of aggressive countries. China just wants India to sign NPT.
> 
> India can supply nuclear materials to Vietnam, Taiwan etc..if the NPT is not signed.
> 
> 
> Why Pakistan and India are Petrified of signing NPT. Go by international rules if you want membership of UNSC and NSG.



Actually Pakistan is waiting. The moment India signs NPT, Pakistan will follow suit.....

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## PaklovesTurkiye

indno said:


> So India is the spoil sport



Exactly

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## dray

Nilgiri said:


> China's overcapacity get punished even more.



Overcapacity in manufacturing is there Achilles heel, even a small variation there will hurt them big. Some Chinese try to belittle the trade factor by comparing it with their total GDP, but what matters is the size, financial health and margin of overcapacity in that particular sector where the drop of trade is. In any case, NSG or not, we should have blocked imports of Chinese items that compete with our cottage industry and SMEs long back.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wow, that sounds amazing.
> 
> India has been complaining (for over a decade) about the trade deficit to China, but the trade deficit keeps increasing every year.
> 
> The more they complain, the bigger the deficit gets.
> 
> What's going on?



Nothing, just enough focus was not there to plug a few holes. But now you can expect some motivation from our government to do the necessary.

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## Hulk

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.


Everything alright with you?


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## airmarshal

This news is not accurate. Even Russia is opposing India's bid alongside China, Ireland, Turkey and New Zealand. I think there a few more countries.

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wow, that sounds amazing.
> 
> India has been complaining (for over a decade) about the trade deficit to China, but the trade deficit keeps increasing every year.
> 
> The more they complain, the bigger the deficit gets.
> 
> What's going on?



Why don't you watch what happens now. For most of that decade we had a "PM" that makes Hu Jin Tao seem like a really aggro alpha male 

I am going to sit back and watch, I suggest you do the same. Lets have a beer a few years from now and discuss who was right and wrong about things

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## Indika

Chinese-Dragon said:


> My point is that if you want to safely boycott China, then you can't use any manufactured goods at all. And especially not any electronics.


Ah I see chinese are manufacturing Intel chips without which computers wont run. 



Chinese-Dragon said:


> China's reach is far, we invest all over the world in all sorts of things.


More the exposure greater the pain. Your investment can simply seized or forfeited



Chinese-Dragon said:


> The only way to safely boycott China is to live in a jungle somewhere, wearing leaves and eating coconuts.


Do you know chinese dont even trust baby food produced in their own country. Better start hoarding coconuts they are not adulterated .

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## DesiGuy1403

Everything has a price to say.
Already the huge backlash against China has started in India.

The way I see it, India still has a chance to get into NSG in near future BUT Chinese have completely lost it out in Indian psyche.
Now Indians see Chinese as nothing but enemies. 

Fun times ahead for sure


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## Chinese-Dragon

eyeswideshut said:


> Do you know chinese dont even trust baby food produced in their own country. Better start hoarding coconuts they are not adulterated .



Hmm and yet China's life expectancy is above the world average, almost on par with fully developed countries.

Whereas India's life expectancy is below the world average, even below North Korea.

Don't believe it? Go and check yourself.



DesiGuy1403 said:


> Everything has a price to say.
> Already the huge backlash against China has started in India.
> 
> The way I see it, India still has a chance to get into NSG in near future BUT Chinese have completely lost it out in Indian psyche.
> Now Indians see Chinese as nothing but enemies.
> 
> Fun times ahead for sure



So wait... are you saying that Indians saw China as "friends" (not enemies) when you started a war against us in 1962?

With friends like that, who needs enemies?  And no thanks.

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## DesiGuy1403

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So wait... are you saying that Indians saw China as "friends" (not enemies) when you started a war against us in 1962?
> 
> With friends like that, who needs enemies?  And no thanks.



Do you think any of the current generation even care about 1962 war?
As a whole there"was" never negative perception about China among India. 
Your leadership has single handedly destroyed that perception.

Oh I am not talking about relations between countries, I am talking about how people of India felt about China.

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## Chinese-Dragon

DesiGuy1403 said:


> Do you think any of the current generation even care about 1962 war?
> As a whole there"was" never negative perception about China among India.
> Your leadership has single handedly destroyed that perception.
> 
> Oh I am not talking about relations between countries, I am talking about how people of India felt about China.





That must be the most hilarious thing I have heard today. Indians are famous for being anti-China, just look at the international polls, the Indian media or even this forum for half a second.

Are you telling me the Agni 5 was never nicknamed the "China killer"? 

The truth is China and India were never friends. Except when India needed something from China (like NSG/UNSC membership), at that point they suddenly pretended to be our friends, but that doesn't pass even a cursory observation.

Before this it was CPEC, then China's support of Pakistan, then "so-called" incursions, then China's alleged support of Pakistan's nuclear program, and so on and so on.

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## Tamilnadu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That must be the most hilarious thing I have heard today. Indians are famous for being anti-China, just look at the international polls, the Indian media or even this forum for half a second.
> 
> Are you telling me the Agni 5 was never nicknamed the "China killer"?
> 
> The truth is China and India were never friends. Except when India needed something from China (like NSG/UNSC membership), at that point they suddenly pretended to be our friends, but that doesn't pass even a cursory observation.
> 
> Before this it was CPEC, then China's support of Pakistan, then "so-called" incursions, then China's alleged support of Pakistan's nuclear program, and so on and so on.


Can you give atleast one thing which china has done for India to feel china is a friend.


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## Ustaz786

Bingo


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## Super Falcon

Entering india NSG means india won't buy Russian reactors they build so why Russia will loose it's customer of paying in cash you just don't get it

Russia played well o oppose you so it sells


GURU DUTT said:


> what pakistani fanboys fail to understand is the fact russia is already in a very big deal with india to make nuclear reactors/ power genration units in india more than USA & France and Japan combined plus many other deals why would they leave it all
> 
> secondly if China is opposing and France , UK , USA Grmanay and Japan and all there allies are supporting india how long will it take us to get an entry when we are already getting all the perks associated with NSG membership without even joining it ?
> 
> but then there love for china and hate of india blinds there thinking ... in a way its good for our cause [/QUOT]


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## Tamilnadu

indno said:


> If India gets into NSG without signing NPT then Pakistan will also enter NSG without signing NPT and Pakistan nuclear materials can go into the hands of Iran, North Korea.
> 
> Basically India is encouraging transfer of nuclear materials into the hands of aggressive countries. China just wants India to sign NPT.
> 
> India can supply nuclear materials to Vietnam, Taiwan etc..if the NPT is not signed.
> 
> 
> Why Pakistan and India are Petrified of signing NPT. Go by international rules if you want membership of UNSC and NSG.


pakistan already share some with Iran, North Korea.

China helped Pakistan with nuclear tech,where do you live bro

After helping Palistan with nuclear tech,can you blame India if they help Vietnam and Taiwan.

international rules should be same for everyone,if one can have it then everyone can have it or nobody should have it.is that fair enough.


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## Indika

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Hmm and yet China's life expectancy is above the world average, almost on par with fully developed countries.
> 
> Whereas India's life expectancy is below the world average, even below North Korea.
> 
> Don't believe it? Go and check yourself.


Stop digressing from the topic.


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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Whereas India's life expectancy is below the world average, even below North Korea.



LOL. You think the cohort mortality data collection in North Korea is robust and transparent to any acceptable degree?

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## jaunty

Rain Man said:


> I think you are missing the forest for the woods. How many even thought that we will walk away with the NSG membership today itself? But we have gone a great deal ahead...Chinese fanboys don't understand that China cannot block our entry indefinitely just because all members' consent is required, it's too complex for China also.



Although the govt is trying to spin it by blaming one country (China), the fact is that we failed to convince quite a few of them. Only 32 of the 48 countries gave it a clear yes according to the Hindu report and there were clear objections from a few others. It is easy to say after-the-fact that we did not expect a positive result but until a few days ago there was clear hope. Otherwise the govt would not have tried so hard. I have lost count how many countries Modi has traveled to in the last 2 years to push this issue. We will eventually get there but fanboys and also the media should learn to pipe down on the hysteria.

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## CHD

June 24, 2016, 3:30 pm
SHARE : 





*INP*
inShare


*BEIJING:* China today gave clear indications it is not going to back India's case for a membership of Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). It is also using the North Korean nuclear situation as an excuse to refuse to accept India's request for support.

In a statement issued this morning, the Chinese foreign ministry said that no exceptions can be made to what it regards as a "rule" disallowing countries that have not signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to join the NSG.

The statement revealed how China is against India's entry due to nuclear controversies surrounding Iran and North Korea.

"And in the absence of NPT as the political and legal basis, how could the nuclear issue on the Korean Peninsula be resolved? All these merit reflection," Wang Qun, Director General of the Department of Arms Control of the Foreign Ministry, said in the statement.

Wang, who is China's negotiator in the NSG talks, went on to say that admitting India would amount to adopting double standards, which would result in enormous cost.

"While it's easy to adopt double standards, the consequence can be enormous," he said.

He said that NPT represents the cornerstone of the entire non-proliferation regime.

"If exceptions are allowed here or there on the question of NPT, the international non-proliferation then will be collapsed altogether. In the absence of NPT as political and legal basis, it will be inconceivable for the JCPOA on the Iranian nuclear issue to be reached," he said.

The statement refutes reports that China was trying to block India's entry while putting up several arguments to explain why India and other non NPT countries cannot be supported.

It said the world non-proliferation regime would collapse if non-NPT countries such as India were allowed in the nuclear suppliers group, the top Chinese official said in Seoul on Friday, restating Beijing’s opposition to New Delhi’s bid to enter the 48-member bloc.

http://nation.com.pk/international/...ks-india-s-nsg-case-with-north-korea-and-iran

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## vayuu1

airmarshal said:


> This news is not accurate. Even Russia is opposing India's bid alongside China, Ireland, Turkey and New Zealand. I think there a few more countries.



U picked this news from dawn.com


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## neem456

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Lets see what happens!!! But again you are singling out China which is wrong and unfair......What about other countries?


Other countries opposition was technical and they were ready to discussion. They just wanted to know the induction process. At the end of the day all fell in line except china standing alone in the corner
While chinas opposition was simply stubborn, they really dont want to see india in nsg.



indno said:


> So India is the spoil sport



First of all change your flags to chinese.

And first you should ask your govt to give up your nukes then india will sign npt and give away its.

Now shoo away, dont try to play high moral ground here.


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## oprih

Quit dreaming my indian brothers.

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## oprih

China said no, that's all that matters. You can have a thousand countries supporting you but the only thing that matters is China's opinion. Basically, RIP to india's nsg bid.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Tamilnadu said:


> Can you give atleast one thing which china has done for India to feel china is a friend.



That's the whole point, China and India are not friends.

Which is why it is so strange that India asked us for this "free favor" of supporting their NSG entry.

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## Tamilnadu

oprih said:


> Quit dreaming my indian brothers.


Because of our dreams we have reached where we are today,we may not have reached yet where we wanted to be,but we will reach there all because our dreams.

And you too are where you are because of your dreams for the future or should we say lack of it .


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## beijingwalker

*No entry in NSG: India blames one country (China), others said no too*

IN A major setback, India’s ambitious bid to become a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) failed on Friday, as China and *at least seven other countries blocked consensus *at the elite group which controls transfer of nuclear technology in the world. *The NSG cited Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) as the “cornerstone” of the international non-proliferation regime*, but India said the NPT issue had been addressed in 2008 itself, when it got the country-specific waiver.

The Indian Express has learnt that Mexico also pressed for a “criteria-based process” for allowing non-NPT members into the NSG, along with Switzerland, Brazil and Turkey. What has surprised many in New Delhi is Mexico and Switzerland’s stand since both countries had promised support during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit a few weeks ago. Brazil was also a surprise since India counted it in its “support column” as both countries have shared interests in climate change and energy needs and are part of groupings like IBSA and BRICS.

Turkey was the only country to push for clubbing both India and Pakistan’s applications directly, while Pakistan’s application was not discussed at all.

Leading the naysayers was China, along with three countries which have strong positions on nuclear non-proliferation — Ireland, Austria and New Zealand. While Modi visited Ireland last year to solicit its support, President Pranab Mukherjee sought New Zealand’s support during his visit last month. Modi also met Chinese President Xi Jinping in Tashkent on Thursday, where he asked him to “contribute to the evolving consensus”.

However, sources told The Indian Express that the NSG plenary in Seoul concluded with the possibility of a “special plenary” — likely in November this year — to discuss the issues related to entry of non-NPT members into the elite 48-nation group.

Reiterating their primacy to the NPT, the NSG plenary in Seoul, in its public statement on Friday, said the “participating governments reiterated their firm support for the full, complete and effective implementation of the NPT as the cornerstone of the international non-proliferation regime.”

It said “the NSG had discussions on the issue of technical, legal and political aspects of the participation of non-NPT states in the NSG and decided to continue its discussion”, indicating the possibility of “informal consultations” followed by a special plenary later this year.

A disappointed New Delhi, which invested considerable amount of political capital on the bid and was seen to have underestimated the opposition, singled out “one country” which, it said, raised hurdles persistently — an oblique reference to China. This kind of finger-pointing is considered rather unusual in diplomatic statements made by countries.

“We understand that despite procedural hurdles persistently raised by one country, a three-hour-long discussion took place last night on the issue of future participation in the NSG. An overwhelming number of those who took the floor supported India’s membership and appraised India’s application positively. We thank each and every one of them. It is also our understanding that the broad sentiment was to take this matter forward,” the Ministry of External Affairs’ official spokesperson, Vikas Swarup, said in Tashkent, where he was accompanying the Prime Minister for the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit.

New Delhi tried to downplay the countries which raised issues of criteria-based process. “It is also our understanding that most countries want an early decision. A few countries raised issues regarding the process for India’s participation in the NSG. It is self-evident that process issues would not arise if these countries were actually opposed to our participation. This is corroborated by our own bilateral engagement with each of these countries,” said Swarup.

“The NSG concluded its plenary meeting in Seoul today (June 24). India was of course not in the room. But we understand from our friends and well-wishers that discussions on expansion of membership, or what is called “participation” in NSG, were certainly not hypothetical,” he said.

He stressed that though India made its application for membership on May 12, it had begun its engagement with the NSG in 2004. “It has been suggested that India’s participation in the NSG requires it to join the NPT. Our stand on the NPT is well known. But let me underline that in September 2008, the NSG itself addressed this issue. Paragraph 1 (a) of the September 2008 decision states that the decision on India contributes to the ‘widest possible implementation of the provisions and objectives of the treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons’. There is thus no contradiction between the NPT and India’s closer engagement with the NSG,” said the MEA spokesperson.

While New Delhi said that an early decision on its application remains in larger global interest and India’s participation in the NSG will further strengthen nuclear non-proliferation and make global nuclear commerce more secure, China had a different take.

The Chinese chief negotiator at the NSG told reporters in Seoul that the group would not bend the rules and allow India membership as it had not signed the NPT. “Applicant countries must be signatories of the treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons,” Wang Qun, the head of arms control department in China’s foreign ministry, was quoted as saying by Reuters in Seoul.

“This is a pillar, not something that China set. It is universally recognised by the international community,” said Wang according to a statement released by the Chinese foreign ministry on Friday.

“International rules will have to be respected, big or small,” Wang told Reuters. “Big like NPT. Small like the rules and procedures of this group… The important question of which we are concerned, is how to deal with the question of participation of countries within the group of non-NPT states. It’s a formidable task,” he said.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...one-country-china-others-said-no-too-2874377/

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## Dungeness

I don't understand why India refused to sign the damn NTP, and instead, asks every member country of NSG to bend the rules for it? Anything so special about India?

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## Tamilnadu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's the whole point, China and India are not friends.


Ok let me rephrase it,china has been doing all the things to hurt India for decadesnow,helping pakiatan with nuclear tech and missile tech,has India done anything like that with china.


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## Dungeness

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's the whole point, China and India are not friends.
> 
> Which is why it is so strange that India asked us for this "free favor" of supporting their NSG entry.




Just wondering why India think everyone else should bend over to please her.

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## Providence

HAIDER said:


> In 1974 Z A Bhutto PM of Pakistan asked Bulent Ecevit if he need Pakistan armed forced for back up during Cyprus invasion. Bhutto also ordered Pak armed forces ready for mobilization, if situation get worst for Turkey.
> 
> During 1971 stand off between Pak-India . Angry Chairman Mao ordered full mobilization of Chinese army to help Pakistan . Historian writes, China was very angry at US attitude toward Pakistan during 71.( its long debate, just writing in short).



China didn't do squat in 1971. At least US sent it's naval fleet.



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> The creation of bangladesh was sealed on the14th of August 1947. It was inevitable. It doesn't matter if it happened in 1971, 1981, 1991, 2001 or 2011 for that matter. YOU CANNOT form a nation of 2 different land masses separated by 1000s of kms where the 2 peoples differ in terms of genetics, race, heritage, culture and way of life. It's impossible. This is precisely the reason why Pakistan was created. India took advantage of this fact in 1971. Nothing more, nothing less.



A very stupid argument. Your military/civil leaders proselytized this theory among many to rationalize the outcome.

You know which country has the longest border with France ? Please guess...
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
..
.

It's Brazil. FACT. Go figure.

@Vauban Did you know that ?

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## Chinese-Dragon

Tamilnadu said:


> Ok let me rephrase it,china has been doing all the things to hurt India for decadesnow,helping pakiatan with nuclear tech and missile tech,has India done anything like that with china.



You mean apart from hosting our largest separatist group in 1959 and then starting a war with us in 1962 while we were in the middle of our worst ever famine?

China and Pakistan only became close a long time after that.

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## Path-Finder

Dungeness said:


> I don't understand why India refused to sign the damn NTP, and instead, asks every member country of NSG to bend the rules for it? Anything so special about India?


 Dont you know? They are Super Power. and they will over take China. so watch out

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> You mean apart from hosting our largest separatist group in 1959 and then starting a war with us in 1962 while we were in the middle of our worst ever famine?



I'm sorry, did China make this famine known to the outside world while it was happening?

Mao made sure to keep exporting grain to the outside world while gleefully seeing millions of his country men resort to cannibalism and then starve to death....how was anyone supposed to know about it?

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## Kraitcorp

oprih said:


> Quit dreaming my indian brothers.


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## Path-Finder

The Dragon has certainly Roared. Helping North Korea is not going to be perceived well.

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## Makarena

The fact that India thought China is the only obstacle it has to overwhelm to get into the group, while the reality was many countries opposed it, meant that India's diplomats and journalists have live in different reality than the rest of the world. No wonder the bid failed. 

To be honest, I would love to see India AND Pakistan get into the group, albeit by signing the NPT. The last thing we need is nuke weapon falling into the hand of more players.

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## Tamilnadu

Dungeness said:


> I don't understand why India refused to sign the damn NTP, and instead, asks every member country of NSG to bend the rules for it? Anything so special about India?


NSG was formed after Indian atomic tests,not after other countries conducted their tests that includes china too.
Now the same group atleast the majority wants India in NSG,wont you think thats special.or China being in the group still wont get some of the tech from other members in NSG what India will get even being out of NSG,isnt that special bro.

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## Kaniska

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Haha do you think India will sign an FTA, I think they would rather be vetoed. Even though an FTA is nothing in comparison to CISMOA/LSA.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you paid so much to USA for their NSG support (which they failed to deliver) yet you expect free favours from us, an "enemy" country?
> 
> Do you believe that you can get our support for free... and you didn't need to give anything in return? Do you think the world works like that?
> 
> Next time you buy something from a shop, try refusing to pay for it?




To some extent i agree with you..There is nothing personal relationship here...It is a failure of Indian diplomacy that if thehiy expect something from any nation but there is nothing in the table to offer..But the bigger question isi that this kind of diplomacy happens when a nation is really interested in making a deal..But for China, they have a different intrest in the region and which is quite right from their perspective too....

In the end, it is all about give and take relationship in the international diplomacy...The bottom-line of the entire episode is that Our Gov should focus more on economic prosperity rather than getting distracted by nuances from Pakistan and other nations...Economically strong nations are commanded with respect...

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## Kaniska

Dungeness said:


> I don't understand why India refused to sign the damn NTP, and instead, asks every member country of NSG to bend the rules for it? Anything so special about India?



Because NTP is a conceptually hollow in nature..How come a rule will allow certain nations to have a nuclear weapon while preventing others to do it...

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## Perpendicular

From Indo-Pak to Indo-China is what I congratulate China for.

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## Kaniska

eyeswideshut said:


> Enough of this crap on depending on others. If we want one we will get one by acting like one. Asking US to do our job was ridiculous.
> 
> China goes about proliferating while India being a good boy gets spanked. Its high time India started to do what is good for it instead of adhering to stupid useless institutions and self imposed rules.



Exactly man..I would prefer to just take a back seat and focus on our economy rather than just going behind US and China for any favor..I openly admit that this is a failure of Modi's diplomacy where they could no predict it in advance.

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## Providence

Go back a decade or so. China would never comment or come out against India in any international fora although silently it did treat India as a competitor locally if not globally.

India consequently, has also been very lackadaisical when it came to making certain decisions just because they didn't want to antagonize their northern neighbors. There was a clear lack of understanding of the extent china opposes India.

Now that china has played it's card, it would help the domestic discourse to move forward in India and make firm independent decisions keeping in mind that China is it's sole adversary.

Such open hostility is a first. Indians should be happy that they have a very strong leadership which forced China to open their cards. If you guys have played competitive poker, you will consider it a victory at some level.

@Guynextdoor2 @nair

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## Kaniska

Path-Finder said:


> The Dragon has certainly Roared. Helping North Korea is not going to be perceived well.



Why not...China has always close friend with nations like Pakistan and North Korea only...Rest of the others definitely not as close as Pakistan and NK..

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## beijingwalker

Tamilnadu said:


> NSG was formed after Indian atomic tests,not after other countries conducted their tests that includes china too.
> Now the same group atleast the majority wants India in NSG,wont you think thats special.or China being in the group still wont get some of the tech from other members in NSG what India will get even being out of NSG,isnt that special bro.


US changed its original stand and everyone knows why, cause it knows other countries will help it do this obvious job to block India's entry while successfully driving a wedge between India and principle holding NSG members. It's an old trick that everyone can see it through

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## Dungeness

Kaniska said:


> Because NTP is a conceptually hollow in nature..How come a rule will allow certain nations to have a nuclear weapon while preventing others to do it...



Rule is rule, it dose matter who set it up. You either follow it or don't be part of it.

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## beijingwalker

Kaniska said:


> Because NTP is a conceptually hollow in nature..How come a rule will allow certain nations to have a nuclear weapon while preventing others to do it...


Then why they try so hard not to let Pakistan in?

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## grey boy 2

Indian NSG bid should finally put to a rest for years to come
To my dear Indian friends, lessons learned
(1) Be humble to whatever you thought you've been achieved, never let some so-called "victories" to blind your mind, be aware of the dangerous to fall into trap like" Success is just failure that hasn't happened yet"
(2) Over estimate your national influence proved to be a recipe for diplomatic disaster
(3) Using China as the "scapegoat" of your own failure will not help either
Conclusion: YOU are not there yet, move on and work harder for your "Indian Dreams" bragging will get you nowhere

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## beijingwalker

I am very proud of my country being one of those honorable principle holding countries on this issue.

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## Kaniska

beijingwalker said:


> Then why they try so hard not to let Pakistan in?



Because Pakistan has a track record which is highly questionable. And on top of that why should India worry, why they do not allow Pakistan to NPT. It is not India's problem rather Pakistan has to deal with it...

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## beijingwalker

Kaniska said:


> Because Pakistan has a track record which is highly questionable. And on top of that why should India worry, why they do not allow Pakistan to NPT. It is not India's problem rather Pakistan has to deal with it...


It's part of your problem now, they are not in, you are not in.They have a track record no worse than yours.

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## Kaniska

beijingwalker said:


> It's part of your problem now, they are not in, you are not in.They have a track record no worse than yours.



I understand your perception..At the end of the day NK and Pakistan are your best friends....

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## Dungeness

Kaniska said:


> Because Pakistan has a track record which is highly questionable. And on top of that why should India worry, why they do not allow Pakistan to NPT. It is not India's problem rather Pakistan has to deal with it...



You guys label your nuclear missile "China Killer", and then turn around asking China do you a big favor and give you an exceptional treatment? Something is wrong here, my friend.

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## Tamilnadu

beijingwalker said:


> US changed its original stand and everyone knows why, cause it knows other countries will help it do this obvious job to block India's entry while successfully driving a wedge between India and principle holding NSG members. It's an old trick that everyone can see it through


It seems it worked liked a charm ,china should have openly supported India,that would have messed up US grand plan,so sad China fell right into US plot and opposed India,its seems chinese dint see the obvious.

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## beijingwalker

Tamilnadu said:


> It seems it worked liked a charm ,china should have openly supported India,that would have messed up US grand plan,so sad China fell right into US plot and opposed India,its seems chinese dint see the obvious.


We only do what is right and that fact often puts China on a colliding course with US. but US has to live with it. Like it or not,we won't change. China is one of the very few countries on this planet who has enough backbone and guts to stand up to the big bully US. and we are proud of that.

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## Nilgiri

Providence said:


> Go back a decade or so. China would never comment or come out against India in any international fora although silently it did treat India as a competitor locally if not globally.
> 
> India consequently, has also been very lackadaisical when it came to making certain decisions just because they didn't want to antagonize their northern neighbors. There was a clear lack of understanding of the extent china opposes India.
> 
> Now that china has played it's card, it would help the domestic discourse to move forward in India and make firm independent decisions keeping in mind that China is it's sole adversary.
> 
> Such open hostility is a first. Indians should be happy that they have a very strong leadership which forced China to open their cards. If you guys have played competitive poker, you will consider it a victory at some level.
> 
> @Guynextdoor2 @nair



Thats the whole difference between the current administration and the previous one.

To exposed the spades as spades and not try disguise or shelter it as anything else....in some cold war Non aligned paralysis that seeks to not offend anyone.

The US and India should start working on a new Nuclear trade group....it could already have started behind the scenes.


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## oprih

Looks like india is truly a world leader when it comes to being a failure.

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## khail007

New World said:


> wow! when did Indian incursion into Chinese territory happened??


Sir G, If I am not wrong it happened in 1962 ... OMG the reply was so horrible  ... that a generation did not dare to pass the info on to next generation.


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## Kaniska

HAIDER said:


> Because , they don't like Indian approach of domination . And some other reason don't want to address, which goes back during world war.



How come China and Turkey becomes "We"..!!!!!....


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## #hydra#

I will boycott Chinese products.
(Updated this status via my moto g 3,made in China mobile)


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## oprih

RIP to india's bid, try next time.


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## Kaniska

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India signed the CISMOA/LSA in return for America giving them an NSG seat.
> 
> Unfortunately the USA wasn't able (or was not willing) to give it to them.
> 
> But why punish Obama? I'm sure he tried his best.



Obama..is in a lame duck situation now...And overall, India adopted a bad strategy....We could have better prepared to face the diplomatic challenge rather than blaming other nations...Each nation is expected to look after their own interest..If India is expectig that China will overlook Pakistan and its interest for the sake of India, then it is a wrong expectation...It may happen at some point in future, when India will offer something more lucrative in return to China that can be negotiated....

So in a nutshell..I agree with you..Even i do not blame China either...rather, it is a failure of Indian diplomacy which could not foresee the challenge in advance..

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## neem456

But aren't we punishing obama adminitraion for this ?

We should be punishing china directly.


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## oprih

And just like that another indian dream is dead.

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## oprih

As usual, in almost every scenario, China always emerge victorious while india is the loser.


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## Kaniska

kahonapyarhai said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746384994956771332
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746384048235364352
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746379327420440576
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746392087386423301
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746378027399995394



This is a silly response...I do not agree with it...Low cost product from China is a fact...Rather than boycotting it, we should invest money on higher education and cutting edge technology..and use cheap Chines product to cater to our mass who really can not afford expensive European products...Do not be emotional friends...Emotion never makes any one successful....


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## Maira La

oprih said:


> And just like that another indian dream is dead.



Now watch the Indian trolls say they don't need NSG, they don't need UNSC, screw 'em all .. the world shall watch them become superpower by ____ (fill in the blank once a month, use pencil only)!

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## Kraitcorp

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Here you go:



So the self proclaimed *PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST *pulled up an old article where U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter is heading to India a week after April 07, 2016 ( article quoted) and doesnt mention signing them or a follow up article on the same . No wonder the Chinese are weak in English Reading Comprehension Skills.

Mods make sure the Chinese post their scores in TOEFL/IELTS before elevating them to *PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST *

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## vayuu1

oprih said:


> China said no, that's all that matters. You can have a thousand countries supporting you but the only thing that matters is China's opinion. Basically, RIP to india's nsg bid.



India will become nsg member sooner or later, that's inevitable, besides I still think we still have a chance in Dec 2016, and for my pak friends, u should look at ur case too atleast india has support of 42 countries, even those opposing India's case wanted to discuss india's case, so basically it leaves china, but pakistan's case wasn't even discussed, considering Mr sartaj ajij saying that pak credentials are stronger than India.

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## faithfulguy

AndrewJin said:


> No, girl. 2012 India is the best!



India is a confident country. It has the confidence of Donald Trump.


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## Dandpatta

Talk of double standards of China - not too long ago NKorea was its own puppy. And now they speak as learned hypocrites.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Kaniska said:


> I understand your perception..At the end of the day NK and Pakistan are your best friends....



Russia too......My indian friends deliberately don't mention Russia when it comes to mentioning China allies as doing so, will burst their propaganda against China as Russia is close to China and also close to India....

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## HariPrasad

fsayed said:


> Good move by india must suspend Paris climate agreement and modi must start trade barriers on Chinese made product. India should open diplomatic relations with Taiwan . Start free Baluchistan campaign. Sell missile to Vietnam and other southeast Asian countries
> 
> @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @Stephen Cohen @anant_s
> 
> @jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @ranjeet
> 
> @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad
> @SrNair



Ye saiyed bhai main jo kahena chahata tha aap ne kahe diya. 

Yes, we do not have to loose anything if NSG membership is denied. We have to loose a little but not being a member gives us a lots of Flexibility to pursue our other goals more aggressively.

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## feilong

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Russia too......My indian friends deliberately don't mention Russia when it comes to mentioning China allies as doing so, will burst their propaganda against China as Russia is close to China and also close to India....


Russia kicking the arshe of India, lol I thought Indian said Russia their friend. Lol, the supa dupa powa India.

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## thesolar65

beijingwalker said:


> It's part of your problem now, they are not in, you are not in.They have a track record no worse than yours.



Your track record? One on our west and another one on your north. Just tell me about our track record, will you?


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## Tamilnadu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> You mean apart from hosting our largest separatist group in 1959 and then starting a war with us in 1962 while we were in the middle of our worst ever famine?
> 
> China and Pakistan only became close a long time after that.


How many times have these seperatist attacked inside china and killed chinese,i stating to doubt your reasoning comparing non-voilence with voilence,bro we are talking about NW.do you know what they are.


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## T-123456

beijingwalker said:


> Turkey was the only country to push for clubbing both India and Pakistan’s applications directly, while Pakistan’s application was not discussed at all.


Seems like the best solution,let both in.

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## Tshering22

Relax. There is always a plan B. China doesn't seem to understand it now. But maybe in the future when ties are better in terms of confidence, then it could be possible.

There is always a way out of troubles.

Let's see what's the plan B.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

feilong said:


> Russia kicking the arshe of India, lol I thought Indian said Russia their friend. Lol, the supa dupa powa India.



Yes.........According to most credible Pakistani media outlet (Dawn) Russia also opposed the India's entry...... .........Indians definitely have gone mad on this. This move of Russia came as a very surprising one.

I m sick of these indians since this NSG saga.....They are literally badmouthing China for days. Idiots are not seeing or whether don't want to see that 7-10 countries also opposed their bid but they are deliberately singling out China.....

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## Tshering22

Alpha BeeTee said:


> With less than a week left in the NSG meet at Seoul,which will decide whether or not India will be allowed entry into the privliged group,China and Turkey have showed no actual signs to support India's bid despite the US and UK pushing all the members to bat for India.
> 
> One wonders,what might be the motive of these two countries to block India ? ( I'm so innocent  )
> 
> What are the chances of the two relaxing their positions in favor of India now ?
> 
> Opinions.



Because they are backing you. Simple.

Turkey isn't politically hostile to us but is committed to an alliance with you.

China needs to keep us distracted strategically so it supports you.

Once you are over that, you will see why other countries have backed us (an overwhelming majority i.e. more than two-thirds).

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## third eye

Kaniska said:


> We could have better prepared to face the diplomatic challenge



In what way do you feel India could have better prepared itself ?


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## thesolar65

oprih said:


> As usual, in almost every scenario, China always emerge victorious while india is the loser.


No, its just arrogance. Remember India helped China get permanent seat in UNSC. China just misusing their power. But as we say every dog will have its day and the everything in this Universe revolves.


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## third eye

neem456 said:


> But aren't we punishing obama adminitraion for this ?
> 
> We should be punishing china directly.


We are merely protecting our interests. 

Why would we forego existing sources / methods of energy if other sources are not assured ?


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## bafxet

Forget India... 
This is between China and US.

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## Tamilnadu

beijingwalker said:


> We only do what is right and that fact often puts China on a colliding course with US. but US has to live with it. Like it or not,we won't change. China is one of the very few countries on this planet who has enough backbone and guts to stand up to the big bully US. and we are proud of that.


Oh boy,copying and stealing part of doing the right things in your dictionary.if its then i have nothing to say.live in your protected or guarded land.



indno said:


> I think, India had upset the internationally community by its nuclear detonation in 1984. India does not get involved in military adventures of western countries. Sometimes India behaves like North Korea 2


No the one in 1984 was a secret detonation,how did you come to know about it...no way we can become or behave NK 2,luckily we dont have china as our close friend.


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## illuminatidinesh

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Yes.........According to most credible Pakistani media outlet (Dawn) Russia also opposed the India's entry...... .........Indians definitely have gone mad on this. This move of Russia came as a very surprising one.
> 
> I m sick of these indians since this NSG saga.....They are literally badmouthing China for days. Idiots are not seeing or whether don't want to see that 7-10 countries also opposed their bid but they are deliberately singling out China.....


How about no one wanted to discuss Pakistan at all? 
Where does it says Russia opposed Indias entry?Even Turkey made a smart move..... Noone is bad mouthing China, atleast not Indians but some armchair generals like u are going hyper about it..
Andbetween name those 7-10 countries which opposed Indian bid, I am just curious.

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## zip

texfab said:


> Forget India...
> This is between China and US.


And US won this with clinical accuracy..

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## SarthakGanguly

thesolar65 said:


> No, its just arrogance. Remember India helped China get permanent seat in UNSC. China just misusing their power. But as we say every dog will have its day and the everything in this Universe revolves.


Nope. China used their power to protect its interests.
India misused hers when she supported PRC in the past.

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## Kaniska

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Russia too......My indian friends deliberately don't mention Russia when it comes to mentioning China allies as doing so, will burst their propaganda against China as Russia is close to China and also close to India....





PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Russia too......My indian friends deliberately don't mention Russia when it comes to mentioning China allies as doing so, will burst their propaganda against China as Russia is close to China and also close to India....



You are welcome to leave in your dream...


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## Srinivas

The points you have written suits China exactly, you have seen the support right!



grey boy 2 said:


> Indian NSG bid should finally put to a rest for years to come
> To my dear Indian friends, lessons learned
> (1) Be humble to whatever you thought you've been achieved, never let some so-called "victories" to blind your mind, be aware of the dangerous to fall into trap like" Success is just failure that hasn't happened yet"
> (2) Over estimate your national influence proved to be a recipe for diplomatic disaster
> (3) Using China as the "scapegoat" of your own failure will not help either
> Conclusion: YOU are not there yet, move on and work harder for your "Indian Dreams" bragging will get you nowhere

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## PaklovesTurkiye

CHD said:


> June 24, 2016, 3:30 pm
> SHARE :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *INP*
> inShare
> 
> 
> *BEIJING:* China today gave clear indications it is not going to back India's case for a membership of Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). It is also using the North Korean nuclear situation as an excuse to refuse to accept India's request for support.
> 
> In a statement issued this morning, the Chinese foreign ministry said that no exceptions can be made to what it regards as a "rule" disallowing countries that have not signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to join the NSG.
> 
> The statement revealed how China is against India's entry due to nuclear controversies surrounding Iran and North Korea.
> 
> "And in the absence of NPT as the political and legal basis, how could the nuclear issue on the Korean Peninsula be resolved? All these merit reflection," Wang Qun, Director General of the Department of Arms Control of the Foreign Ministry, said in the statement.
> 
> Wang, who is China's negotiator in the NSG talks, went on to say that admitting India would amount to adopting double standards, which would result in enormous cost.
> 
> "While it's easy to adopt double standards, the consequence can be enormous," he said.
> 
> He said that NPT represents the cornerstone of the entire non-proliferation regime.
> 
> "If exceptions are allowed here or there on the question of NPT, the international non-proliferation then will be collapsed altogether. In the absence of NPT as political and legal basis, it will be inconceivable for the JCPOA on the Iranian nuclear issue to be reached," he said.
> 
> The statement refutes reports that China was trying to block India's entry while putting up several arguments to explain why India and other non NPT countries cannot be supported.
> 
> It said the world non-proliferation regime would collapse if non-NPT countries such as India were allowed in the nuclear suppliers group, the top Chinese official said in Seoul on Friday, restating Beijing’s opposition to New Delhi’s bid to enter the 48-member bloc.
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/international/...ks-india-s-nsg-case-with-north-korea-and-iran



I must commend China and Turkey and Russia and Brazil and Ireland and Switzerland for showing such determination.......Everyone should.....World is getting Bi polar, friends. We r so lucky that we r seeing with our very own eyes. 

Thank you all countries who opposed India's bid on merit...

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## Kaniska

third eye said:


> In what way do you feel India could have better prepared itself ?



Simple...If China is on board, then it is of no value to try it..Right now, as we speak, apart from US, China and its opinion infleunces the other following nations...All the 48 nations are just followers of either US or China so what is the point in dealing with US only?...If we think that China will never agree to it, then do not try to go for it...


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## beijingwalker

Tamilnadu said:


> Oh boy,copying and stealing part of doing the right things in your dictionary.if its then i have nothing to say.live in your protected or guarded land.
> 
> 
> No the one in 1984 was a secret detonation,how did you come to know about it...no way we can become or behave NK 2,luckily we dont have china as our close friend.


Human development is all about learning from each other. US learned from UK and even Nazi Germany and Japan learned from US and in the end they both developed their ability to do their own. Learning or even copying, if you can, is nothing to be shamed of, the shame lies with those who never even bother trying and thus will never move forward. China now has world fastest computer that 100% made by China, what does India have?

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## SarthakGanguly

The diplomatic recognition of the Republic of China and the Government of Tibet are long overdue.


----------



## Mufflerman

Like I said yesterday. Time to start burning some coal. Let's see if we can sink Hong Kong and shanghai in 2 decades.


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## Mufflerman

China nuclearized Pakistan and North Korea. Now this? Way to go if you want to build credibility.

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## grey boy 2

thesolar65 said:


> No, its just arrogance. Remember India helped China get permanent seat in UNSC. China just misusing their power. But as we say every dog will have its day and the everything in this Universe revolves.



Wake up please
For how long Indians are going to fall for some never ending "Internet Hoax" like India refused the offer for the UNSC seat and offered to China instead?
*dated September 28, 1955: UN seat: Nehru clarifies *

*Prime Minister Nehru has categorically denied any offer, formal or informal, having been received about a seat for India in the UN Security Council.* He made this statement in reply to a short notice question in the Lok Sabha on September 27 by Dr. J.N. Parekh whether India had refused a seat informally offered to her in the Security Council. The Prime Minister said: "There has been no offer, formal or informal, of this kind. Some vague references have appeared in the press about it which have no foundation in fact. The composition of the Security Council is prescribed by the UN Charter, according to which certain specified nations have permanent seats. No change or addition can be made to this without an amendment of the Charter. There is, therefore, no question of a seat being offered and India declining it. Our declared policy is to support the admission of all nations qualified for UN membership.''
http://www.thehindu.com/2005/09/28/stories/2005092800270900.htm

Oh btw, NO more of the dominant amount of scientists, doctors or whatever professionals "HOAX" as well
Its getting really annoying

WASHINGTON: It's an Internet myth that has taken on a life of its own. No matter how often you slay this phony legend, it keeps popping up again like some hydra-headed beast.
*But on Monday, the Indian government itself consecrated the oft-circulated fiction as fact in Parliament, possibly laying itself open to a breach of privilege. By relaying to Rajya Sabha members (as reported in The Times of India) a host of unsubstantiated and inflated figures about Indian professionals in US, the government also made a laughing stock of itself.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ls-victim-to-net-hoax/articleshow/2856295.cms

*

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## My-Analogous

Kaniska said:


> Because Pakistan has a track record which is highly questionable. And on top of that why should India worry, why they do not allow Pakistan to NPT. It is not India's problem rather Pakistan has to deal with it...



These questions applied to many countries including India. Please tell us how you make Nuclear bomb. Typical India think that they are saint and rest all are evil. Stop childish behavior and grown up.


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## Alpha BeeTee

SarthakGanguly said:


> The diplomatic recognition of the Republic of China and the Government of Tibet are long overdue.



Please do it and make more blunders.
Why don't you understand that it's all about bussiness for China.For once you have to be humbled and offer what China signals.You make blunders in your 'aggressive' foreign policy and now u're in a compromising position.And no,you don't need to accept it here on pdf.
Get ready to be milked by China.Offer them expensive economic deserts,u'll get NSG.


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## $@rJen

oprih said:


> As usual, in almost every scenario, China always emerge victorious while india is the loser.



Dumbo.... its not a big deal.... we have already got the waiver from NSG which china failed to block.... now what does that tells you about looser china ??

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## Tamilnadu

beijingwalker said:


> Human development is all about learning from each other. US learned from UK and even Nazi Germany and Japan learned from US and in the end they both developed their ability to do their own. Learning or even copying, if you can, is nothing to be shamed of, the shame lies with those who never even bother trying and thus will never move forward. China now has world fastest computer that 100% made by China, what does India have?


Does this 100 % chinese and the world fastest computer post ,two words ,stupid CCP in china,my old and slowest nokia does when i type stupid modi.

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## Mufflerman

Can't boycott electronics. But can give all manufacturers 2 years to reach 30% local sourcing and 5 years to reach 60% local sourcing.


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## My-Analogous

beijingwalker said:


> Human development is all about learning from each other. US learned from UK and even Nazi Germany and Japan learned from US and in the end they both developed their ability to do their own. Learning or even copying, if you can, is nothing to be shamed of, the shame lies with those who never even bother trying and thus will never move forward. China now has world fastest computer that 100% made by China, what does India have?



They are world leaders in blame game and pointing figure on others


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## woodysmasher

Russia didn't oppose india for the NSG approval. It was China, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey raised objections.

India is a huge country and the main reason india is keen on this is the leap in the energy production which would benefit the manufacturing sector of india.

China knows this would propel India forward so they can compete with the Chineese market. The actions of China is to establish a chineese supremacy in the Asia. India don't want to start a war with pakistan either. If India wanted it could've defeated Paks 10 times over. India knows only Imbeciles wage war like mongerels when there are larger problems. 

Modi is nothing like Trump. Trump can be said to be like the long lost brother of North korean president Kim jong. If Trump did come to power that's when Paks have to worry. Modi did made blunders. He is currently trying to piece together a larger picture without assembling minute ones.

The confusion with India's nuclear programme is the reason for opposition for the other countries. The PM was trying to sort this out. People outside India think india is becoming a super power like USA and opposing it. It all depends on people's POV and their self interest. Dont just get on the bandwaggon and be an imbecile.

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## chanikya

*Washington:* The US on Friday said that there is "a path forward" for India to become a full member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group by the end of the year, hours after the group's plenary meeting ended in Seoul with no decision on India's membership in face of strong China-led opposition.

"We are confident that we have got a path forward by the end of this year," a top Obama administration official said.

"It needs some work. But we are confident that India would be a full member of the (NSG) regime by the end of the year," the official said.

Refusing to divulge the discussions and opposition to Indias membership within the 48-member grouping, the official said details of the internal deliberations are confidential.

But the US strongly believes in India's membership in the NSG and the Obama Administration has "worked closely" with New Delhi and other countries on this issues, the official said.

Without going into details of deliberations, the official referred to a similar discussion within the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) to which India was inducted early this month after months of discussions within its member countries.

Like NSG, decisions within MTCR is taken with consensus.

"We expected a discussion on the role that India will play and where it has been," said the official.

"We were able to end discussion this week and we have a clear path forward for India to become a full member by the end of the year," the official asserted.

"That's our expectation," the senior administration official reiterated when asked if US expects that India's NSG membership could be achieved by the end of this year.

"Our expectations is that this would be finished by the end of this year," the official said.

The NSG ended its plenary meeting in Seoul with no decision on India's membership.

China, which had made no secret of its opposition, succeeded in scuttling India's bid despite a significant majority backing the Indian case. Thirty-eight countries supported India, according to Indian officials.

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsi...g-member-by-year-end-us/ar-AAhAstj?li=AAggbRN

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## Guynextdoor2

China should thank us because we point out as the only country that counts and don't class them with New Zealand and Austria


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## Nilgiri

Mods, I know it might be a bit of an ask time-wise....but could we possibly combine all the India-NSG membership threads into one or just a few? They have proliferated beyond reason.

@waz @Icarus @Oscar @WAJsal

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Nilgiri said:


> It's why I said every import category must be analysed as to its importance in any supply chain within India. They seem to be skipping this important fact. There is not going to be a blanket ban, but a selective strategic one dependent on how many and quality of Indian jobs any imported item supports.
> 
> I mean India already imposed large anti-dumping duties on Chinese steel a couple times (and much lower than other countries have, since Indian steel is quite cost-effective)...and that too steel is an intermediate that supports a lot of manufacturing in India (automobiles, auto parts, construction) so all of these could have simply benefited if we just let cheap chinese steel in as is and sacrifice all the steel worker jobs (if they are much lower in number compared to the manufacturing jobs that would have been created).
> 
> But in the overall analysis, Indian govt felt that steelworker jobs were worth saving and imposed the duties.
> 
> Now one can imagine what other sectors such analysis will also be opened up for now if China keeps being stubborn about the NSG. The first easy target is really going to be the cheap consumer items made from plastics....given the high price elasticity of supply for those (i.e relatively easy to transfer suppliers by pricepoint to even domestic ones...which will also help make in india program). There are others too.
> 
> Indian exports if China takes a trade war approach will not suffer as much in USD terms....because most of them are raw products that we really should not be exporting in the first place. Buckle up, switch them to internal consumption (it will help reduce prices because of the larger supply available)....and watch the trade deficit decline with time and China's overcapacity get punished even more.



I hope none of the above is for Chinese members here

As per their reasoning every "made in China" product/electronics used by Indians is a Chinese export to India and hence an Indian dependency on China.

CCP economics 101.

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## vayuu1

oprih said:


> RIP to india's bid, try next time, maybe in the year 3016.



Don't worry beta, Dec 2016 ya beginning of 2017 we will get it, worry about ur case that wasn't even discussed.

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## My-Analogous

indno said:


> Iran has placed orders worth $35 billion with U.S Boeing for commercial planes. Iran is the biggest threat when nuclear weapons comes into picture.



What about Korea, why US give free passage to Korea for Nuclear bomb?. Its about politics not about seriously implement nuclear bomb ban.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

vayuu1 said:


> Don't worry beta, Dec 2016 ya beginning of 2017 we will get it, worry about ur case that wasn't even discussed.


Ethnic Chinese hyper nationalist Philippines citizen


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## Dungeness

Guynextdoor2 said:


> China should thank us because we point out as the only country that counts and don't class them with New Zealand and Austria



And this is from an "Elite Member"?


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## Guynextdoor2

Dungeness said:


> And this is from an "Elite Member"?



yeah....

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## T-123456

Tshering22 said:


> Turkey isn't politically hostile to us but is *committed to an alliance* with you.


The only reason.


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## ConcealCarry

Indian duplicity and complicity in helping rouge states like NK and Iran are exposed. Indians are already guilty of nuclear proliferation without being NNSG member, think what they will do after they become a member?

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## Dungeness

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Now take your smartphone, open up the back, and see where the components came from (you should see the "Made in..." sticker right there).
> 
> Next, take your tablet, your laptop, your PC, open up the case and check where all the components came from.
> 
> Good luck.



Nay, their frugal tradition and the price sensitive spending behavior will virtually ensure nothing is going to happen. They will not break anything and they will continue to buy the cheapest products available.

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## forcetrip

SrNair said:


> Looks like the First casuality of NSG session .



Yes. Taking world climate hostage is not going to further Chinas evil designs being one of the top polluters in the world. Indias diplomacy is all over the place. On one hand they got an unbelievable victory of getting a nod from the US which is where they should have stopped instead of aiming for unrealistic goal of actually getting a consensus which includes a heavy weight NSG member China who will never ever let India get in there without Pakistan getting in even if its the only disagreeing vote. If India wants the NSG then it uses its diplomatic clout and lobby to get Pakistan in, if not then it should just lobby to get the rules changed of entry into the NSG. I am sure it would be more likely for a country of Indias stature to change the rules and make another institution follow what has happened to the UN and child murdering case by two countries.

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## My-Analogous

indno said:


> After how many years, can India apply again for NSG group.



They give a very long list to India and i don't know how much time it will take. They asked India the following

The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.

India is said to be runnng the largest un-safeguarded nuclear program with a fissile production capacity 7.7 times greater than that of Pakistan. 

They want to clear all issue before next application.



Dungeness said:


> And this is from an "Elite Member"?





Guynextdoor2 said:


> yeah....



With -28 points

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## third eye

Kaniska said:


> Simple...If China is on board, then it is of no value to try it..Right now, as we speak, apart from US, China and its opinion infleunces the other following nations...All the 48 nations are just followers of either US or China so what is the point in dealing with US only?...If we think that China will never agree to it, then do not try to go for it...




In other words just sit back and allow yourself to be walked over Or like Pakistan mortgage yourself to seek ' favours'.

This has been a good thing, India has its supplies hence was in a position to seek membership. 

We cannot allow ourselves to be walked over.


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## Guynextdoor2

My-Analogous said:


> They give a very long list to India and i don't know how much time it will take. They asked India the following
> 
> The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.
> 
> India is said to be runnng the largest un-safeguarded nuclear program with a fissile production capacity 7.7 times greater than that of Pakistan.
> 
> They want to clear all issue before next application.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With -28 points



that's actually +28...they all secretly love my posts.

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## Nilgiri

Syama Ayas said:


> I hope none of the above is for Chinese members here
> 
> As per their reasoning every "made in China" product/electronics used by Indians is a Chinese export to India and hence an Indian dependency on China.
> 
> CCP economics 101.



http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_china_exports.html

*Top 10 Chinese Exports to India*

1. Electronic equipment: $13.4 billion
2. Machinery: $10.2 billion
3. Organic chemicals: $5.9 billion
4. Fertilizers: $3.5 billion
5. Iron and steel: $2.3 billion
6. Plastics: $2.1 billion
7. Furniture, lighting, signs: $2 billion
8. Medical, technical equipment: $1.5 billion
9. Iron or steel products: $1.4 billion
10. Vehicles: $1.2 billion

So lets assume electronics is left alone for arguments sake since Chinese members believe a large part or most of it is price inelastic (which they may be right about, it will have to be broken further down to know for sure....maybe Nirmala Sitharaman and co know the better analysis for this).

That still leaves these other significant chunks that can all be effectively targeted as needed according to the number of jobs (and expecially further Value addition) they support within India (i.e how "raw" of an import they are and their importance in a larger supply chain/requirement).

Items that are strictly end use (i.e have no further impact in Indian generated GVA or job provision) and have multiple domestic and/or other international suppliers at price points of say a few % points higher can be given a tarrif of that % + 1 etc.

Everything will have to be broken down, analysed and then done accordingly by the commerce ministry.

They have about a year to plan since thats what the US is saying w.r.t further discussions regaring NSG membership.

But its good to do this anyway (regardless of NSG situation) and execute at the appropriate periods. It will be another litmus test for the Modi administration....I hope he takes it seriously. Boycotting by people on the ground is only so good because market forces are hard to overcome for most regular non-elite people.

It could be just the impetus that the make in India program requires combined with the good monsoon forecasted this year and improvement of credit situation. Hope India makes the best of it.

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## Guynextdoor2

there is some strong deal India has struck with the US.We're obviously very well aligned on this.

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## Tshering22

T-123456 said:


> The only reason.


We understand your predicament.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

forcetrip said:


> Yes. Taking world climate hostage is not going to further Chinas evil designs being one of the top polluters in the world. Indias diplomacy is all over the place. On one hand they got an unbelievable victory of getting a nod from the US which is where they should have stopped instead of aiming for unrealistic aim of actually getting a consensus which includes a heavy weight *NSG member China who will never ever let India get in there without Pakistan getting in even if its the only disagreeing vote*. If India wants the NSG then it uses its diplomatic clout and lobby to get Pakistan in, if not then it should just lobby to get the rules changed of entry into the NSG. I am sure it would be more likely for a country of Indias stature to change the rules and make another institution follow what has happened to the UN and child murdering case by two countries.



Doubt the bolded part, If Chinese interests are threatened they will not hesitate to drop Pakistan, example being NSG waiver.

India's blunder here was to hastily attempt for NSG membership without addressing each of those opposing individually.

Swiss U-turn was only part, India could have not anticipated.

For Chinese, India should have waited for its formal MCTR membership and then traded Chinese MCTR membership for Indian NSG membership.

Among the others opposing, its Turkey that bothers me, as India seems to have nothing currently to offer them.



Kaniska said:


> Simple...If China is on board, then it is of no value to try it..Right now, as we speak, apart from US, China and its opinion infleunces the other following nations...*All the 48 nations are just followers of either US or China* so what is the point in dealing with US only?...If we think that China will never agree to it, then do not try to go for it...



The bolded part is incorrect, not a single NSG member was opposing India to appease China.
Every one of the 6 other opposing nations had their own reasons.


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## T-123456

Tshering22 said:


> We understand your predicament.


I know that you,as one of the few do.


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## Hulk

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Now take your smartphone, open up the back, and see where the components came from (you should see the "Made in..." sticker right there).
> 
> Next, take your tablet, your laptop, your PC, open up the case and check where all the components came from.
> 
> Good luck.


There are practical limitations but we should do what we can.


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## somebozo

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> I must commend China and Turkey and Russia and Brazil and Ireland and Switzerland for showing such determination.......Everyone should.....World is getting Bi polar, friends. We r so lucky that we r seeing with our very own eyes.
> 
> Thank you all countries who opposed India's bid on merit...



Merit is important especially when we are talking about an institute made to curb Indian nuclear proliferation specifically...Also China plans to export many reactors in the Future and US-India nexus could hurt potential Chinese exports by lowering their price..


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

T-123456 said:


> I know you as one of the few do.


Just curious, I am bit surprised that Turkey so far has not opposed our MCTR membership.

Can any Turkish member clarify on this.


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## danger007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Now take your smartphone, open up the back, and see where the components came from (you should see the "Made in..." sticker right there).
> 
> Next, take your tablet, your laptop, your PC, open up the case and check where all the components came from.
> 
> Good luck.




My note5 is made in India .. I forgot to say..

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## Guynextdoor2

khail007 said:


> Sir G, If I am not wrong it happened in 1962 ... OMG the reply was so horrible  ... that a generation did not dare to pass the info on to next generation.



In 1962 china was more powerful, India was weak and India did take a licking. This history and no one is running away from it.


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## My-Analogous

Guynextdoor2 said:


> that's actually +28...they all secretly love my posts.



I hope soon you reach your 50

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## T-123456

Syama Ayas said:


> Just curious, I am bit surprised that Turkey so far has not opposed our MCTR membership.
> 
> Can any Turkish member clarify on this.


I dont know which member could help out with that,maybe @cabatli_53 can.

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## pakdefender

the wind got taken out of the wind bags


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## HAIDER

Providence said:


> China didn't do squat in 1971. At least US sent it's naval fleet.
> 
> 
> 
> A very stupid argument. Your military/civil leaders proselytized this theory among many to rationalize the outcome.
> 
> You know which country has the longest border with France ? Please guess...
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> ..
> .
> .
> .
> .
> ..
> .
> .
> ..
> .
> 
> It's Brazil. FACT. Go figure.
> 
> @Vauban Did you know that ?


Yes, US sent the navel fleet, but it went opposite direction...not toward Indian ocean.


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## Ryuzaki

It is very difficult to practically boycott chinese products,for instance India does not have any semiconductor fabrication facilities,so all semiconductors and intricate electronics are imported from China and Taiwan.


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## Great Sachin

war&peace said:


> Because both the countries believe in principles and have the ability to take pressure and stand their grounds.


wow..that's why Pakistan also applied for NSG


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## SherDil

The big reason for India's NSG bid failure is their bad performance regarding safeguard and security of their national necluar arsenal.

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## Srinivas

India will get NSG seat, The game is not ove yet!


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## PaklovesTurkiye

somebozo said:


> Merit is important especially when we are talking about an institute made to curb Indian nuclear proliferation specifically...Also China plans to export many reactors in the Future and US-India nexus could hurt potential Chinese exports by lowering their price..



All I know is Pakistan should stick to China, no matter what. If US-India nexus will play, Pak-China nexus will be always there to counter it.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Path-Finder said:


> The Dragon has certainly Roared. *Helping North Korea is not going to be perceived well.*


That would mean  for both Pakistan and China.

Considering Pakistan has admitted to providing nukes to North Korea.
And Chinese accused of providing missile technology, hence their MCTR membership application being rejected.

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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.



India has completely segregated its Civilian and Military reactors and put the former under IAEA safeguards. Have you even read the basics of the Indo-US deal and NSG waiver? Sheesh!

As for the CTBT, why would we join that when two of the original members refuse to ratify it still?

We have a 200kt thermo bomb to test when the time is right...hence NSG waiver is completely fine for us now....something Pakistan will NEVER get in the current generation and who knows how many subsequent ones.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

illuminatidinesh said:


> How about no one wanted to discuss Pakistan at all?
> Where does it says Russia opposed Indias entry?Even Turkey made a smart move..... Noone is bad mouthing China, atleast not Indians but some armchair generals like u are going hyper about it..
> Andbetween name those 7-10 countries which opposed Indian bid, I am just curious.



RUSSIA......SWITZERLAND......TURKEY......AUSTRIA.....BRAZIL......IRELAND......CHINA......AND OTHERS TOO.......A QUARTER OF 48 MEMBERS OPPOSED INDIA'S BID.........here is your source too.....

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...one-country-china-others-said-no-too-2874377/

Pakistani source
http://www.dawn.com/news/1266838

U guys are showing your hostile attitude towards China since this NSG saga.........I thought u only hated Pakistanis to the core....Never knew up till now that you got such hostile mindset against China....

U just panicked and exposed yourselves....

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## DrPuff

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> I must commend China and Turkey and Russia and Brazil and Ireland and Switzerland for showing such determination.......Everyone should.....World is getting Bi polar, friends. We r so lucky that we r seeing with our very own eyes.
> 
> Thank you all countries who opposed India's bid on merit...


where did you get that Russia was against India's NSG bid ?I never found such info except in your dawn or it is just for self convincing?

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## My-Analogous

Nilgiri said:


> India has completely segregated its Civilian and Military reactors and put the former under IAEA safeguards. Have you even read the basics of the Indo-US deal and NSG waiver? Sheesh!
> 
> As for the CTBT, why would we join that when two of the original members refuse to ratify it still?
> 
> We have a 200kt thermo bomb to test when the time is right...hence NSG waiver is completely fine for us now....something Pakistan will NEVER get in the current generation and who knows how many subsequent ones.



Then i think all these countries are idiots and they should ask you before comments

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## PaklovesTurkiye

DrPuff said:


> where did you get that Russia was against India's NSG bid ?I never found such info except in your dawn or it is just for self convincing?



China's secret magic !!!! Doc......


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## HAIDER

Don t know detail, but India been asked in 2008 to comply some regulation and Indian govt still failed to do so. Plus, India can get the NSG status if apply jointly with Pakistan or add Israel. 3 countries are nuclear power and hasn t sign NPT.


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## Great Sachin

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The post by @Nilgiri is a good one, very insightful.
> 
> In geopolitics, countries seek to further their own national interests. Therefore India can get the seat if they decide to play ball.
> 
> NSG and UNSC aren't even that relevant for China, we don't consult them for anything we do, whether it is supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan or building islands in the SCS. None of these things are approved by the NSG/UNSC.
> 
> All that matters is, what can further our national interests. So countries will negotiate with each other to come to an understanding.
> 
> But India still doesn't seem to see geopolitics as a game of interests. Their attitude towards China/Pakistan is all about emotion. They could offer great deals to other NSG members, but not to China, even though it might have got them the seat.


stop boasting ..go get those islands from Japan first.....


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## forcetrip

Syama Ayas said:


> Doubt the bolded part, If Chinese interests are threatened they will not hesitate to drop Pakistan, example being NSG waiver.
> 
> India's blunder here was to hastily attempt for NSG membership without addressing each of those opposing individually.
> 
> Swiss U-turn was only part, India could have not anticipated.
> 
> For Chinese, India should have waited for its formal MCTR membership and then traded Chinese MCTR membership for Indian NSG membership.
> 
> Among the others opposing, its Turkey that bothers me, as India seems to have nothing currently to offer them.
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded part is incorrect, not a single NSG member was opposing India to appease China.
> Every one of the 6 other opposing nations had their own reasons.



You are kind of correct. The Chinese will do everything in their national interest. We disagree on the part that MTCR is something that can be used to lure the Chinese to give up backing Pakistan in this case. India will join the NSG simultaneously with Pakistan or the membership or veto powers will be changed. However lets see. I will congratulate you if that happens because that would mean an even bigger victory than getting a US vote in the bag. But as of right now none of that is even remotely possible if you ask me. MTCR for a military port and strategic depth? Does not calculate by a long shot.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

ConcealCarry said:


> Indian duplicity and complicity in helping rouge states like NK and Iran are exposed. Indians are already guilty of nuclear proliferation without being NNSG member, think what they will do after they become a member?


Irony of Pakistanis calling Iranians a "rouge" state.
@SOHEIL @Serpentine

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## PaklovesTurkiye

woodysmasher said:


> People outside India think india is becoming a super power like USA and opposing it./QUOTE]
> 
> I lost it when you said this.........Calm down. People over here are leaving no stone un-turned in trolling Indians. Why provide them an opportunity?


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## Nilgiri

Great Sachin said:


> stop boasting ..go get those islands from Japan first.....



Forget Japan, they cant even take the PH and Viet occupied islands in SCS.

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## DrPuff

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> China's secret magic !!!! Doc......


No.. It's Dawn's secret magic

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## Great Sachin

oprih said:


> As usual, in almost every scenario, China always emerge victorious while india is the loser.


How about Philippines....


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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> Then i think all these countries are idiots and they should ask you before comments



The issue in NSG was a non NPT member joining. That is completely external to CTBT and reactor segregating (which has already been accomplished years ago...thats why the US even started liability talks with us regarding their potential reactor designs and many countries export uranium ore to us now).

What the NSG countries that were unsure/against India had as their main point was a) a non NPT member joining b) precedent it would set given NSG formation and c) reform of admission that would be required so the process can be standardised for future non-NPT members.

Where in any of this do you read what you posted earlier? Did you lift it from "DAWN"? The same Dawn that said Russia voted against India for NSG membership?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

DrPuff said:


> No.. It's Dawn's secret magic



Hmm...Well. I also got surprised when I saw Russia in the list of opposing states but given how Mexico, Brazil, Switzerland made an U turn from supporting India to going to opposite group....Russians can't be underestimated. Dawn is well read and very credible. I can't ignore this.......


----------



## SarthakGanguly

Alpha BeeTee said:


> Please do it and make more blunders.
> Why don't you understand that it's all about bussiness for China.For once you have to be humbled and offer what China signals.You make blunders in your 'aggressive' foreign policy and now u're in a compromising position.And no,you don't need to accept it here on pdf.
> Get ready to be milked by China.Offer them expensive economic deserts,u'll get NSG.


This is also just business.

Currently the lack of recognition of the republic of China prevents any state collaboration on tech transfers, international trade and so on. Why refuse to trade with one of the richest countries in Asia? It's not that we are withdrawing recognition of PRC. The ultimate objective is to milk both the cows dry.

As for Tibet, it is an old civilization and recognition will certainly give a great boost o tourism, as many will come and visit the Diaspora in India and marvel at how they have been able to retain their individuality in a foreign land.

It's only business and no PRChinese can object to that.


----------



## DrPuff

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Hmm...Well. I also got surprised when I saw Russia in the list of opposing states but given how Mexico, Brazil, Switzerland made an U turn from supporting India to going to opposite group....Russians can't be underestimated. Dawn is well read and very credible. I can't ignore this.......


Russia won't ever do that.. Russia is India's biggest defence partner & Russia had & will have so many deals to make nuclear reactor in India.. India is a major source of income for them

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## grey boy 2

But unfortunately we've proven we can enjoyed a "cake walk" on the expense of our dear Indian friends 









PS: i especially appreciated the friendly mentality that our Indian army boys have shown:
"Surrender with a big SMILE on their face" priceless

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## PaklovesTurkiye

DrPuff said:


> Russia won't ever do that.. Russia is India's biggest defence partner & Russia had & will have so many deals to make nuclear reactor in India.. India is a major source of income for them



China is also a source of Income for Russia...Isn't it? Let see what comes next !!! Chinese are very good at diplomacy..


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## zebra7

beijingwalker said:


> Then why they try so hard not to let Pakistan in?



Denial Mode syndrome !!


----------



## DrPuff

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> China is also a source of Income for Russia...Isn't it? Let see what comes next !!! Chinese are very good at diplomacy..


Yup no doubt china has a very good diplomacy but China can't have any hand over Russia.. Russia acts as a sole... China can only control inky pinky..
Whoever posted about Russia whether in Indian websites or Pakistani websites both are fake.. It's just an assumption by media. Nobody comes up in public about that or wants to but it's obvious that Russia isn't one of those.....


----------



## HariPrasad

thesolar65 said:


> For the first time in more than a decade, India's quest for a place at the global high table faces a reversal of course. What amounts to an outright rejection of India's attempt to become a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group or NSG requires us to stand back and question exactly how we are presenting ourself to the world - and whether our foreign policy priorities still make sense.
> 
> Let's be clear about one thing: the driving force behind the rejection of NSG membership for India was China. The People's Republic has sought to hide behind procedure, claiming that exceptions to outdated non-proliferation rules cannot be made for India. This is obviously hypocritical; China expects, for example, that any number of other international rules need to be bent to serve its own rise. Just look at its behaviour in the South China Sea, where it seems to expect that the law of the sea should not apply to its actions.
> 
> China's assertion on procedure amounts to an insistence that Pakistan should be considered for NSG membership at the same time as India. This is, for obvious reasons, farcical; no any objective consideration of the two countries' records on nuclear proliferation suggests they're comparable. Pakistan has been continually and consistently unreliable on it; India, whatever its past behaviour, has since the late 1990s tests, lived up to international non-proliferation commitments - even though it has signed no treaty compelling it to do so.
> 
> The takeaways from this NSG fiasco are two-fold.
> 
> The first is that China has now shown us its hand. More explicitly than ever before, it has told the world this: that it does not - and will not for the foreseeable future - allow India its natural space in the world. The leaders of the People's Republic do not intend to enable India's rise the way they expect and demand the rest of the globe support China's own rise.
> 
> 
> 
> India has long harboured a large constituency of people who believe that "non-alignment" between China and the US is in India's best interests. The NSG vote has clearly shown up the holes in this argument. What non-alignment is reasonable between China and the US when those two countries, through their behaviour, have shown what their own alignment towards India actually is?
> 
> Naturally, this is not an argument for not deepening and strengthening our ties with China. Creating a closer relationship with China is a necessary part of any effort to change minds in Beijing about how they should deal with India. (The same basic logic applies, of course, to our efforts to deepen and strengthen ties with Pakistan.)
> 
> But that does not mean that we can deny reality. And the reality is this: of the US and China, only one has committed to viewing India as a great world power, to detaching its association with Pakistan with its connection to India, and to giving India the place it deserves in global institutions. Indian foreign policy must reflect this difference, regardless of what Delhi's congenitally anti-American elites believe. In such a choice, where no balance is offered, no balance can be achieved. Let all talk of 21st-century non-alignment now end.
> 
> The second lesson is that India must make its vision of its own future clear. It needs to make explicitly what it expects and deserves: a global order that unequivocally recognises India's position as the world's fastest-growing large economy, the world's largest democracy - and soon its largest country, bar none.
> 
> This expectation is both just and realistic. China's peaceful rise is being accommodated by the post-World War II world arrangements. India's equally inevitable rise must be, too.
> 
> This might indeed require exceptions to long-standing rules or norms. It could indeed need global agreements to have conscious India exceptions. There is nothing to be ashamed of in this; it is merely realistic. This country is too large, and is changing too quickly, for things to be otherwise. And it is too large and too important for the worlds' future for denying exceptions to be morally defensible.
> 
> India's diplomacy needs to make this vision of our future as explicit as possible, given that it is both morally justified and necessary.
> 
> Yes, foreign policy under Narendra Modi has focused on raising India's profile. Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar has at various points laid out the argument that India must transition from being a "balancing" to being a "leading" power.
> 
> But there needs to be more coherent messaging. The NSG fiasco, which sets back this country's necessary campaign for a more just global order, certainly reveals that much. If it was unlikely that China would change its mind, then it is unclear why we pushed.
> 
> In 2008, when India was given access to certain NSG privileges, a big reason was because the American president could ask a favour of China's paramount leader. Perhaps President Obama did not want to ask with enough passion; perhaps he could not, given his lame-duck status; perhaps this paramount leader is less well disposed to his neighbours than 2008's. All of these should have been taken into consideration; were they? If so, what thinking underlay the decision to push through anyway? We deserve an answer. The government's desire for quick, positive headlines at home must not be allowed to obscure our larger aims.
> 
> And even after the decision to push at the NSG was taken, is this really the best outcome? To have states like Brazil and South Africa, nominally our partners in BRICS, nevertheless contribute to procedural objections to a discussion of the Indian exception? What should have been China vs the world turned into something far messier. That is a serious setback, and one that should not be minimised.
> 
> India's membership of the NSG on its own terms is not about the arcana of international law. It is not even about the nuclear trade. It is about creating, as smoothly as possible, a global order that recognises the place in the world that India will inevitably occupy. Our government's job is to guide the world to the recognition of this inevitability.
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/in-nsg-fiasco-clear-lessons-for-india-on-handling-china-and-more-1423036



We can generate a very big support for NSG bid. China has a hegemonic design in the world and in the region. China has always tried to hurt and insult india. Modi has adopted a very correct tit for Tat policy. We have to loose nothing by not getting NSG membership where the countries like Newzealand and Switzerland are members. Let them be happy. We must pursue our act east policy more aggressively. We are all set to take a big jump from here. China is over its hump of economic development. their decline has already begun. Even today we are capable of protecting our own interest and cause concern for china. With our strategic and economical development, we shall have more cards to play. Modi has dismantlement string of perl very badly and almost humiliated china on diplomacy front. We have been able to challenge chinese hegemony in even south china sea. 

What I want to say is that our foreign policy is in right direction. This is a very minor setback without any harm of any of our strategic interest. We must continue to strengthen ourselves. Whatever due is there will come automatically.

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## SamantK

forcetrip said:


> Yes. Taking world climate hostage is not going to further Chinas evil designs being one of the top polluters in the world. Indias diplomacy is all over the place. On one hand they got an unbelievable victory of getting a nod from the US which is where they should have stopped instead of aiming for unrealistic goal of actually getting a consensus which includes a heavy weight NSG member China who will never ever let India get in there without Pakistan getting in even if its the only disagreeing vote. If India wants the NSG then it uses its diplomatic clout and lobby to get Pakistan in, if not then it should just lobby to get the rules changed of entry into the NSG. I am sure it would be more likely for a country of Indias stature to change the rules and make another institution follow what has happened to the UN and child murdering case by two countries.


At least we now know that China is happy with showing its hypocrisy of going against India on moral grounds of outdated NPT and against the fair practice of navigation in international seas.

Also, this is the first time that China has put its cards on the table, now they cant cry of India favoring the US camp. 

That train, sir, has left the station.

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## Nilgiri

grey boy 2 said:


> But unfortunately we've proven we can enjoyed a "cake walk" on the expense of our dear Indian friends
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: i especially appreciated the friendly mentality that our Indian army boys have shown:
> "Surrender with a big SMILE on their face" priceless



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathu_La_and_Cho_La_incidents

Don't forget that China tried to take Sikkim later and got crushed badly by India.

Its fun to have the last word dont you think?

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

1962 is indeed a glorious Chinese victory.

A glorious victory where China abandoned a region it claimed its territory as well as people inhabiting the claimed to be Chinese citizens into the hands of nation it claimed to be the evil "aggressor".

What more glory can a nation wish for with achievement of abandoning its own claimed citizens and claimed territory .

Not that its something new for the PLA, considering that in WW2 they abandonded Chinese people in the hands of Japanese, just to ensure KMT and Japanese fight each other and CCP emerges supreme.

The significance of 1962 has been permanent.
Its not at all affected by the fact when in 1975 India integrated Sikkim a territory claimed by Chinese and mighty PLA did not even dare a Skirmish for this.Guess Mao and Chou en Lai died heart broken witnessing this. 



Nilgiri said:


> Forget Japan, they cant even take the PH and Viet occupied islands in SCS.


Not to mention, take over Taiwan. 

Must be humiliating to have a Chinese province, despite being recognized worldwide as Chinese territory, having its own Govt,economy and military allied with China's enemies.

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## grey boy 2

Some say "A picture worth a thousand words"
Perhaps "A couple of video worth a FULL FACIAL" anyone?

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## Nilgiri

indno said:


> So far Russia has been the only country to offer commercial launches of satellites into orbits.
> 
> *Russia will lose business to India.*



WTH are you smoking? It must be good. Russia is not the "only" country that offers commercial launches of satellites to orbit.

Just check with the folks of the 2nd flag of your account....and there are many other providers beyond them too (France, US, Japan etc...)

Whats this got to do with the topic at hand anyway?


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## Perpendicular

A path forward for India to become NSG member by year end: US

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


Not so long fools. Its eventuality.


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## SherDil




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## illusion8

imran169 said:


> Its a bit strange that Indian media is targeting only China giving expression that only China is against Indian NSG membership...!



China desperately tried and did everything it could to delay and remove the discussion from the plenary. .The others were fence sitters and would have come around. .The chinese broke the meeting for 7 hrs so that the topic does not get discussed.

It's china that vetoes sanctions against lashkar and jaish terror groups. It's china that opposes India's position in the world.

The pakistani card in NSG was a joke, after that failed to deliver - the Chinese resorted to derailing the discussion.


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## Nilgiri

Perpendicular said:


> A path forward for India to become NSG member by year end: US
> 
> Read more at:
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
> 
> 
> Not so long fools. Its eventuality.



AFAIK Obama is not that interested in this NSG stuff for India (esp compared to Bush and Condee's role for Indo-US role esp getting HJ Tao to agree to waiver). It will be nice to be proven wrong however so lets wait and see. The US may have an NSG alternative organisation forming soon even.

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## illusion8

beijingwalker said:


> Then why they try so hard not to let Pakistan in?



Because Pakistan is a nuclear pariah, no country other than China will touch it with a barge pole after all the nuclear proliferation it has indulged in..


As for your - other countries, they would all have come around. It was China that desperately avoided the discussion to take place by delaying the proceedings, and not allowing the discussion to take place.


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## Perpendicular

Nilgiri said:


> AFAIK Obama is not that interested in this NSG stuff for India (esp compared to Bush and Condee's role for Indo-US role esp getting HJ Tao to agree to waiver). It will be nice to be proven wrong however so lets wait and see. The US may have an NSG alternative organisation forming soon even.


You might be right. 
But what chinese do not understand is they might have done exactly what US wanted, make china look anti India. It is bound to have effect on Indo china bilateral relations as such. Chinese diplomats know this. CPC PLA might not.

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## Nilgiri

Perpendicular said:


> You might be right.
> But what chinese do not understand is they might have done exactly what US wanted, make china look anti India. It is bound to have effect on Indo china bilateral relations as such. Chinese diplomats know this. CPC PLA might not.



They are just buying as much time as they can trying to stall an inevitable thing. Its ok let them have their fun while they can so they can temporarily forget about the massive economic crunch China is at the precipice of.

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## Major Sam

From comments

The countries who supported India knew it very well where the proposal will end up. So they extracted maximum concessions from India without having to lose anything. Blind diplomacy on the part of India. US Congress voted in favour of Pak immediately after they gave Mr Narendra Modi several standing ovations when he was presenting his case to them. They knew very well what it takes to please our PM and what practical policies should be taken in the region. For our Bhakts, the applause is enough.


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## forcetrip

SamantK said:


> At least we now know that China is happy with showing its hypocrisy of going against India on moral grounds of outdated NPT and against the fair practice of navigation in international seas.
> 
> Also, this is the first time that China has put its cards on the table, now they cant cry of India favoring the US camp.
> 
> That train, sir, has left the station.



Hypocrisy? That word literally translates to say one thing and do another. Lets see. China told India that it will let it join the NSG and then when it came time at the table voted against it. No, that did not happen. In the other instance. One of the major rules of all countries currently participating in the NSG is being a signatory of the NPT. The US being one of the main proposers of that rule. Today it was the one looking the other way of that said rule. That my kind sir is what Hypocrisy means. Now if someone was smart and see what the US did here it would be all but obvious. In the past when the US needed something to happen it would change the rules first and then it would be all legal. Pushing India to hit the rule wall was just more fuel to the conspiracy theorist.


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## Nilgiri

Major Sam said:


> So they extracted maximum concessions from India without having to lose anything. Blind diplomacy on the part of India. US Congress voted in favour of Pak immediately after they gave Mr Narendra Modi several standing ovations when he was presenting his case to them.



What were these concessions...and what was this vote you talk of?


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## Stealth

eek company may hamesha eek banda asa hota hey jisko sab kahtay hain tum senior ho senior hoo usko kah kah kar sir pe charha detay ahin likin jab b seniors ke meeting hoti hey usko isetarhan side pe bheta diya jata hey .. usko ye baat kafi arsay baad samaj ati hey kay actually woh senior tha he nahe usko company istemaal karnay kiliye usko motivate karti the actaully woh itna important tha he nahe pas bas woh ise koshfahme me rahta tha jesay uske bohat importance hey

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## Tipu7

Despite Modi's attempts to convince Xi Jinping to support India's membership, Beijing stood firm in opposition. PHOTO: FILE

*NEW DELHI: *India has blamed regional rival China for blocking its entry to a nuclear trade group opposed to the proliferation of nuclear weapons, after its members met in South Korea with no decision on India’s bid to join.

India wants to become a member of the 48-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) which works to prevent the sharing of technology that could spread nuclear weapons.

*India fails to get NSG membership*

New Delhi believes joining the NSG, which concluded a two-day meeting in Seoul Friday, would give it better access to low-cost, clean nuclear energy, important for economic growth.

But despite Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s reported attempts to convince Chinese President Xi Jinping to support India’s membership, Beijing stood firm in its opposition.

“The NSG plenary in Seoul earlier in the day decided against granting India membership of the grouping immediately,” Vikas Swarup told Press Trust of India news agency.

A three-hour discussion on India’s membership saw “procedural hurdles persistently raised by one country,” he said.

One obstacle reportedly raised by China was that India is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty — a treaty on nuclear disarmament that India says is biased.

“India singles out China for crushing NSG dream,” a front page headline in the Hindustan Times newspaper said.

Others said that China had been not alone in its opposition.

The Indian Express newspaper said: “No entry in NSG: India blames one country (China), others said no too.”

Modi had ramped up his bid to get India into the NSG in the last few weeks, undertaking a multi-nation trip to court key countries including the US, Switzerland and Mexico.

*Six nations oppose India’s NSG membership*

He met with China’s Xi on the sidelines of a summit in Uzbekistan Thursday, apparently to push for Beijing’s support.

“India believes that an early decision on its application remains in larger global interest,” the foreign ministry said in a statement.

India’s formal application to the group in May this year has received backing from key NSG members including US, France and Japan.


http://tribune.com.pk/story/1129901/india-blames-china-stalled-nuclear-group-entry/?456

Too bad for Fan boys who used to beat chest on Indian ''global influence'' and how World revolve around India

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## CorporateAffairs

Gibbs said:


> US had the last laugh at the expense of Indian diplomacy


You got it horribly wrong. This only shows the declining power of US. And nobody cares what US has to say.
On the other hand India has nothing to lose. She is already into MTCR league. No issues at all.

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## Dzz

Mufflerman said:


> China nuclearized Pakistan and North Korea. Now this? Way to go if you want to build credibility.


This is China , they have no credibility .

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## Mufflerman

There is a big difference between China and CCP. Indians will do well to not confuse one for the other.

Most Chinese see India as a friend. They also see CCP as a slowly dying entity.

The CCP sees India's progress as an existential crisis as it invalidates their iron grip over the Chinese society.

This is fact. Don't believe the CCP bots here.

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## somebozo

India should blame itself for not playing by the rules...letting india in without the rules means we should also be looking at membership of Iraq, Libiya, North Korea, Cuba and Pakistan...

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## Mufflerman

somebozo said:


> India should blame itself for not playing by the rules...letting india in without the rules means we should also be looking at membership of Iraq, Libiya, North Korea, Cuba and Pakistan...


We love it when our not so friendlies keep living in DENIAL


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## Nilgiri

somebozo said:


> India should blame itself for not playing by the rules...letting india in without the rules means we should also be looking at membership of Iraq, Libiya, North Korea, Cuba and Pakistan...



Yes let all of these memberships be looked at and lets see how many countries vote for letting them join and compare their results to what India achieved recently  I'm sure it will be quite enlightening.

I hope everyone wears a "Merchant of Menace" T-Shirt when Pakistan's diplomats enter the room

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## Perpendicular

Nilgiri said:


> They are just buying as much time as they can trying to stall an inevitable thing. Its ok let them have their fun while they can so they can temporarily forget about the massive economic crunch China is at the precipice of.


Agreed.
MTCR didn't happen overnight.

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## Nilgiri

Perpendicular said:


> Agreed.
> MTCR didn't happen overnight.



True but China had no bearing on MTCR decision.

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## nadeemkhan110

India why dont you blame the cruel world

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## Great Sachin

grey boy 2 said:


> But unfortunately we've proven we can enjoyed a "cake walk" on the expense of our dear Indian friends
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: i especially appreciated the friendly mentality that our Indian army boys have shown:
> "Surrender with a big SMILE on their face" priceless


In 1960s, India never expected that China or any other country would attack India...At that time even if Nepal would have attacked us and won the was against India....

Now India expect...

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## Indika

Nilgiri said:


> AFAIK Obama is not that interested in this NSG stuff for India (esp compared to Bush and Condee's role for Indo-US role esp getting HJ Tao to agree to waiver). It will be nice to be proven wrong however so lets wait and see. The US may have an NSG alternative organisation forming soon even.


True just like TPP for SCO. So it will be another cold war your block vs my block.

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## Who.Cares

*US Senator praises NSG after India fails to get membership*
*Last month during a Congressional hearing, Markey had opposed India's NSG membership application.*

A US Senator has praised the NSG for deciding against granting India membership of the grouping immediately, hours after the elite group’s plenary meeting ended in Seoul with no decision on India’s membership in face of strong China-led opposition.

“Today, the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) reaffirmed its strong support for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) by refraining from admitting India,” Junior Democratic Senator from Massachusetts Edward Markey said in a statement.

The NSG was founded in response to India’s 1974 nuclear test and it has worked for decades to prevent the sharing of technology that could contribute to the further spread of nuclear weapons, he said on Friday.

“If India joined the Nuclear Supplier Group, it would be the only participating government in the organisation that was not a party to the NPT, weakening the NSG’s commitment to the treaty. By refraining from admitting India, the NSG strengthened both the treaty and the broader global nonproliferation regime,” Markey, a known India-basher, said.

As a member of the US House of Representative, Markey has unsuccessfully led effort to block passage of civil nuclear deal between India and the US. Last month during a Congressional hearing, Markey had opposed India’s NSG membership application.

The NSG on Friday ended its plenary meeting in Seoul with no decision on India’s membership.

“The NSG plenary in Seoul earlier in the day decided against granting India membership of the grouping immediately and said it will continue to have discussions on participation of countries which have not signed the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty,” External Affairs Ministry Spokesperson Vikas Swarup said on Friday.

China, which had made no secret of its opposition, succeeded in scuttling India’s bid despite a significant majority backing the Indian case. Thirty-eight countries supported India, according to Indian officials.


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## Perpendicular

Nilgiri said:


> True but China had no bearing on MTCR decision.



"The NSG had discussions on the issue of 'Technical, Legal and Political Aspects of the Participation of non-NPT States in the NSG' and decided to continue its discussion." 
So they did left some room to maneuver on "technical issues" which china made its base for opposition.

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## Indika

grey boy 2 said:


> But unfortunately we've proven we can enjoyed a "cake walk" on the expense of our dear Indian friends
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: i especially appreciated the friendly mentality that our Indian army boys have shown:
> "Surrender with a big SMILE on their face" priceless


China could not win against vietnam against India it will be a different thing. If china was so strong why would they prop up pakistan then. Fact is Nehru in his blind faith in chinese and non-violence had nearly disbanded the army. Subsequent encounters with Indian military has been not so encouraging for china. 

Discuss the main topic instead of bellowing about the past.


Great Sachin said:


> In 1960s, India never expected that China or any other country would attack India...At that time even if Nepal would have attacked us and won the was against India....
> 
> Now India expect...


True, Nehru and menon are bunch of bozos as far as foreign policy were concerned. They were more concerned that military might undertake a coup hence cut down military's strength.


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## Who.Cares

Twelve countries including China, Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Ireland and Belgium oppose extending concessions to India.

*Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Italy, Romania, Belarus, Turkey, China, Austria, Ireland, Belgium and New Zealand oppose extending concessions to India
*
Source: http://www.dawn.com/news/1267070/nsg-terms-npt-bedrock-of-non-proliferation-regime (*Dawn*: The most trusted news source for Indians)

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Tipu7 said:


> Too bad for Fan boys who used to beat chest on Indian ''global influence'' and how World revolve around India



Its ironical that you have to mention global influence here

Since its the same global influence that got India 41 nations to support its NSG membership.
And the same global influence that got 2 nations to support Pakistan's NSG membership.

Thats 1:20 ration for Pakistan and India.

Awesome influence Pakistan

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## Who.Cares

Syama Ayas said:


> Its ironical that you have to mention global influence here
> 
> Since its the same global influence that got India *41* nations to support its NSG membership.
> And the same global influence that got 2 nations to support Pakistan's NSG membership.
> 
> Thats 1:20 ration for Pakistan and India.
> 
> Awesome influence Pakistan



38

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## Tipu7

We don't beat chest on global influence crap.
We only show mid finger to haters when they claim that Pakistan is isolated in World.
Current NBG game was about Global Indian influence vs Pakistan global isolation.
And see, who got red patches in lower back?
Even Your close allay Russia (with whom you claim to have billions of $ of agreements) kicked your butt ........ 



Syama Ayas said:


> Its ironical that you have to mention global influence here
> 
> Since its the same global influence that got India 41 nations to support its NSG membership.
> And the same global influence that got 2 nations to support Pakistan's NSG membership.
> 
> Thats 1:20 ration for Pakistan and India.
> 
> Awesome influence Pakistan

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## Glorino

Mufflerman said:


> If New Delhi has the balls, we should do the following.
> 
> 1) De-recognise One China. Declare Tibet, inner Mongolia and Xinjiang as territories under occupation. Recognise Tibetan Government under exile as official Government of Tibet. Open Tibetan embassy. Open Taiwanese embassy.
> 2) Form a NATO like alliance with Japan, Australia and Vietnam as founding members with open agenda of containing China. Offer these nations nuclear umbrella against China. Open naval bases in Cam Rann Bay and Parcel and Spartley island.
> 3) Get out of Brics and all other nonsense organisations
> 4) Ban all electronics imports from China. If companies want to do business with the second largest electronics consumer in the world, they have to manufacture locally.
> 5) Start parallel nuclear commerce groups with the West, Japan and other nuclear tech/mineral rich economies.
> 
> UN is already an impotent group so nothing to gain there.


I AM IN FULL SUPPORT- WAY TO GO- To HELL WITH THE CHINESE


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Tipu7 said:


> We don't beat chest on global influence crap.
> We only show mid finger to haters when they claim that Pakistan is isolated in World.
> Current NBG game was about Global Indian influence vs Pakistan global isolation.


You made a cheesy attempt to mock India's global influence despite the obvious and now changing the topic.



> And see, who got red patches in lower back?


If India's NSG membership being stalled is red patches in lower back, then India's NSG waiver must have been a new orifice torn off on the lower back for some 



> Even Your close allay Russia (with whom you claim to have billions of $ of agreements) kicked your butt ........


And world is flat for Pakistanis.

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## New Resolve

Yoga hi kartey reh gaye yeh becharay.

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## for truth

forcetrip said:


> Hypocrisy? That word literally translates to say one thing and do another. Lets see. China told India that it will let it join the NSG and then when it came time at the table voted against it. No, that did not happen. In the other instance. One of the major rules of all countries currently participating in the NSG have a clear rule of is being a signatory of the NPT. The US being one of the main proposers of that rule. Today it was the one looking the other way of that said rule. That my kind sir is what Hypocrisy means. Now if someone was smart and see what the US did here it would be all but obvious. In the past when the US needed something to happen it would change the rules first and then it would be all legal. Pushing India to hit the rule wall was just more fuel to the conspiracy theorist.



Hypocrisy is also when the Chinese ask India to adhere to NPT but they themselves violated by helping Pakistan in nuclear know how.

And america making way for India to be in NSG isn't about hypocrisy, but about reality.

The fathers of nuclear stuff - UK,France,US,Germany and Russia-all have favored India's membership. If the world knows anything about nuclear stuff, it is because of these nations, and the ones who are objecting to India, are the ones who merely followed the foot steps of these nations. 

When all the fathers of nuclear stuff are supporting India's membership, it is only a matter of time before India becomes a member of NSG, rest of the opposition are bunch of jokers (except china).

India has come a long way in scientific and technological growth, it will only keep moving forward from here. There are multi billion dollar worth industrial houses in India which are now capable of designing and manufacturing extremely complex sub systems for nuclear stuff. Pakistan is light years behind India in Industrial and scientific fields... 

The west recognized India's growth in industrial and scientific fields, only then it realized that it was better to put India under NSG guidelines than to not, and hence the NSG waiver. The NSG waiver didn't come for free nor it was about giving exotic nuclear stuff to India, rather it was about to bring unrestricted India under restrictions and demand strict standards of control on stuff. By securing NSG waiver for India, the US ensured that potential new global power will be an ally for US in the future.

The US didn't bend the rules for India at NSG waiver, rather it was India's growth and rise in economic, scientific and industrial fields that changed the minds of policy makers in the west to make India it's ally.

If India was in Pakistan's position-- with no economic power, with almost non-existent scientific and technological sectors--Americans would have never bothered to offer NSG waiver to India. And that is why they are not offering any such sort of NSG waiver to Pakistan right now.

And the talk of "India and Pakistan becoming NSG members simultaneously" is a joke to begin with.... it is only a matter of time before India becomes member of NSG

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## Dungeness

Mufflerman said:


> There is a big difference between China and CCP. Indians will do well to not confuse one for the other.
> 
> *Most Chinese see India as a friend. They also see CCP as a slowly dying entity.*
> 
> The CCP sees India's progress as an existential crisis as it invalidates their iron grip over the Chinese society.
> 
> This is fact. Don't believe the CCP bots here.



That is very cute. Did "most Chinese" just give you mandate to speak for them?

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## Director General

Senator Markey has been a complete failure.
He opposed the India-US Nucear deal but failed miserably as majority of Congress cleared the deal.

In 2010 he also opposed sale of AH-64E to India and once again he failed as vast majority of Congress refused to back him in blocking the deal.

Then he also wanted US to block sale of certain componets used by India in aircrafts and satellites but DoD paid no attention to his requests.

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## PAK01

India needs to change our dirty mind.


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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> Its ironical that you have to mention global influence here
> 
> Since its the same global influence that got India 41 nations to support its NSG membership.
> And the same global influence that got 2 nations to support Pakistan's NSG membership.
> 
> *Thats 1:20 ration for Pakistan and India.*
> 
> Awesome influence Pakistan



US and Israel has a voting record of 2:180. Dose it mean Palestinian has the overwhelming influence than Israel?

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## SpArK

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...
> 
> IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> *Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.*
> 
> Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "*free favours",* like in the case of the NSG.
> 
> Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.
> 
> But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.
> 
> For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?
> 
> *You want something, you offer something in return*. That's how the world works.
> 
> Now let India come and negotiate.  We are businessmen after all.




Can we offer some laddoos or Jalebis ( Indian sweets) or remixed versions of Honey Singhs new album...
Or shall we send some Jackfruits from kerala????

Tell us what you want... we will send it in the next consignment to China......

Or if you are unwilling to have any material gift we can arrange to honor some of your celebrities with highest honors like Bharat bhushan or somesort....

Or do you like to run BCCI or want a representative in censor board ???

Tell us... so that we know what you want.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> US and Israel has a voting record of 2:180. Dose it mean Palestinian has the overwhelming influence than Israel?


It means Israel is diplomatically a pariah state 

Not that this has anything to do with the current NSG support for Pakistan membership being compared to Israel would equate both cases................


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## weqi

This is the first Indian defeat after aligned relations with united states .

"Yeh to Shruat hay agay agay dekho hota hay kya"


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## arbit

Kaniska said:


> Exactly man..I would prefer to just take a back seat and focus on our economy rather than just going behind US and China for any favor..I openly admit that this is a failure of Modi's diplomacy where they could no predict it in advance.



There were two options. 

1. Maintain the status quo and let the fear of being (domestically) seen as failed dictate the foreign policy and national interest. After all doing nothing is the easiest course of action. Fetches no criticism 

2. Go all out, shake things up and see who stands where. Either we will get in or we will get an opportunity to fine-tune our diplomatic policy based upon real world support not flowery speeches. In the process the nay sayers will have to expand considerable political capital and the supporters will eventually gather behind us with greater force.

Which option do you support? And what you think has happened?

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## danger007

PAK01 said:


> India needs to change our dirty mind.








yes your ..

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## That Guy

Director General said:


> Senator Markey has been a complete failure.
> He opposed the India-US Nucear deal but failed miserably as majority of Congress cleared the deal.
> 
> In 2010 he also opposed sale of AH-64E to India and once again he failed as vast majority of Congress refused to back him in blocking the deal.
> 
> Then he also wanted US to block sale of certain componets used by India in aircrafts and satellites but DoD paid no attention to his requests.


Money talks, and India has a lot of lobbyists in its pockets.


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## Dungeness

Indian members here need to calm down a little. When you guys label your nuclear tipped missiles as "China Killer" or "Beijing Killer", you really shouldn't be surprised what China did. What the hell do you expect China to do? Bending the rule for you so you can easily put your hand on more and cheaper nuclear material, to build more "China Killer"? Besides, China is the one who is sticking to the existing rules for the sake of world order. If China has to act like a bad guy, so be it.



Syama Ayas said:


> It means Israel is diplomatically a pariah state
> 
> Not that this has anything to do with the current NSG support for Pakistan membership being compared to Israel would equate both cases................



I am really impressed that you can find some comfort in otherwise a failure. I should learn this branded optimism from you.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> Indian members here need to calm down a little. When you guys label your nuclear tipped missiles as "China Killer" or "Beijing Killer", you really shouldn't be surprised what China did. What the hell do you expect China to do? * Bending the rule for you so you can easily put your hand on more and cheaper nuclear material, to build more "China Killer"?* Besides, China is the one who is sticking to the existing rules for the sake of world order. If China has to act like a bad guy, so be it.



China already did that by accepting India's NSG waiver.

But since Chinese media did not have a single article covering India's NSG waiver and its threatening consequences to China, in order to paint CCP leadership as immutable omnipotent leadership, which can hardly ever make such a blunder
I guess its not true at all 



Dungeness said:


> I am really impressed that you can find some comfort in otherwise a failure. I should learn this branded optimism from you.


I am even more impressed you had the audacity to draw a comparison between Israeli-Palestine HR violation UN votes and Pakistan's NSG membership on a Pak forum, Amazing Chutzpah .

Not surprising since you even went as far as using racial slurs on Pakistanis here.


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## arbit

That Guy said:


> Money talks, and India has a lot of lobbyists in its pockets.



Yes. So ?


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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> China already did that by accepting India's NSG waiver.
> 
> But since Chinese media did not have a single article covering India's NSG waiver and its threatening consequences to China, in order to paint CCP leadership as immutable omnipotent leadership, which can hardly ever make such a blunder
> I guess its not true at all



Maybe China was hoping to give India some time to put its act together in 2008? But you guys keep bragging about "China Killer", and finally pissed China leaders off this time around?

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## danger007

Who.Cares said:


> *US Senator praises NSG after India fails to get membership*
> *Last month during a Congressional hearing, Markey had opposed India's NSG membership application.*
> 
> A US Senator has praised the NSG for deciding against granting India membership of the grouping immediately, hours after the elite group’s plenary meeting ended in Seoul with no decision on India’s membership in face of strong China-led opposition.
> 
> “Today, the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) reaffirmed its strong support for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) by refraining from admitting India,” Junior Democratic Senator from Massachusetts Edward Markey said in a statement.
> 
> The NSG was founded in response to India’s 1974 nuclear test and it has worked for decades to prevent the sharing of technology that could contribute to the further spread of nuclear weapons, he said on Friday.
> 
> “If India joined the Nuclear Supplier Group, it would be the only participating government in the organisation that was not a party to the NPT, weakening the NSG’s commitment to the treaty. By refraining from admitting India, the NSG strengthened both the treaty and the broader global nonproliferation regime,” Markey, a known India-basher, said.
> 
> As a member of the US House of Representative, Markey has unsuccessfully led effort to block passage of civil nuclear deal between India and the US. Last month during a Congressional hearing, Markey had opposed India’s NSG membership application.
> 
> The NSG on Friday ended its plenary meeting in Seoul with no decision on India’s membership.
> 
> “The NSG plenary in Seoul earlier in the day decided against granting India membership of the grouping immediately and said it will continue to have discussions on participation of countries which have not signed the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty,” External Affairs Ministry Spokesperson Vikas Swarup said on Friday.
> 
> China, which had made no secret of its opposition, succeeded in scuttling India’s bid despite a significant majority backing the Indian case. Thirty-eight countries supported India, according to Indian officials.




This senator against Indo-Us nuclear deal.. opposing NSG bid from long time... One thing many members unable to understand...India's NSG rejected to admit immediately... but not scrapped fully ... so don't jump too much.. we have time ..

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## randomradio

Providence said:


> Such open hostility is a first.



First? Nah, we've even fought a war and stuff.

There have been multiple battles since 1962. The last one was in 1987, albeit bloodless.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> That must be the most hilarious thing I have heard today. Indians are famous for being anti-China, just look at the international polls, the Indian media or even this forum for half a second.
> 
> Are you telling me the Agni 5 was never nicknamed the "China killer"?
> 
> The truth is China and India were never friends. Except when India needed something from China (like NSG/UNSC membership), at that point they suddenly pretended to be our friends, but that doesn't pass even a cursory observation.
> 
> Before this it was CPEC, then China's support of Pakistan, then "so-called" incursions, then China's alleged support of Pakistan's nuclear program, and so on and so on.



Wrong. India and China are allied when it comes to WTO and Climate.

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/xL...a-supports-India-in-solar-dispute-at-WTO.html

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## AGHORI

New Resolve said:


> Yoga hi kartey reh gaye yeh becharay.


Yoga karte karte hum MTCR mai pahoch gaye. NSG ka waiver toh pehle hi mila tha. Pakistan toh bas "we have nukes" bolta rehgaya. Na MTCR membership milee na NSG waiver. Atleast India's membership issue was raised at the NSG meet and we had the support of atleast 38 of the 48 countries. Pakistan's application didn't even come for hearing.

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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> I am even more impressed you had the audacity to draw a comparison between Israeli-Palestine HR violation UN votes and Pakistan's NSG membership on a Pak forum, Amazing Chutzpah .
> 
> *Not surprising since you even went as far as using racial slurs on Pakistanis here*.



This is a pretty dirty "below belt" from an "Elite Member" of PDF. I have never used any kind of racial slur to our Pakistan friends here and anywhere, *because there is none in China. *In Chinese defense forums, we refer Pakistan as "Ba Tie", meaning "Pakistan Iron Brothers". If that particular term you are referring to were considered "racial slur", it was directed to some of your countrymen, and you know that too. Cheap shot!

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> Maybe China was hoping to give India some time to put its act together in 2008? But you guys keep bragging about "China Killer", and finally pissed China leaders off this time around?


Actually not, as per American diplomats, China huffed and puffed against India's NSG waiver as well.

But eventually submitted to American pressure,
This part remains a big global mystery, how did great CCP leadership get get bullied into allowing India to have a larger nuclear arsenal, that too by the her main opponent Americans?
I mean what dirty little secret did the Americans threaten to reveal about the Hu Jintao, that he threw his nation under the bus for it? 

Or maybe CCP grew a conscience and believed they deserved it


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## Great Sachin

Pakistan also filed application for NSG....how many countries supported Pakistan?..any idea


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## forcetrip

for truth said:


> Hypocrisy is also when the Chinese ask India to adhere to NPT but they themselves violated by helping Pakistan in nuclear know how.
> 
> And america making way for India to be in NSG isn't about hypocrisy, but about reality.
> 
> The fathers of nuclear stuff - UK,France,US,Germany and Russia-all have favored India's membership. If the world knows anything about nuclear stuff, it is because of these nations, and the ones who are objecting to India, are the ones who merely followed the foot steps of these nations.
> 
> When all the fathers of nuclear stuff are supporting India's membership, it is only a matter of time before India becomes a member of NSG, rest of the opposition are bunch of jokers (except china).
> 
> India has come a long way in scientific and technological growth, it will only keep moving forward from here. There are multi billion dollar worth industrial houses in India which are now capable of designing and manufacturing extremely complex sub systems for nuclear stuff. Pakistan is light years behind India in Industrial and scientific fields...
> 
> The west recognized India's growth in industrial and scientific fields, only then it realized that it was better to put India under NSG guidelines than to not, and hence the NSG waiver. The NSG waiver didn't come for free nor it was about giving exotic nuclear stuff to India, rather it was about to bring unrestricted India under restrictions and demand strict standards of control on stuff. By securing NSG waiver for India, the US ensured that potential new global power will be an ally for US in the future.
> 
> The US didn't bend the rules for India at NSG waiver, rather it was India's growth and rise in economic, scientific and industrial fields that changed the minds of policy makers in the west to make India it's ally.
> 
> If India was in Pakistan's position-- with no economic power, with almost non-existent scientific and technological sectors--Americans would have never bothered to offer NSG waiver to India. And that is why they are not offering any such sort of NSG waiver to Pakistan right now.
> 
> And the talk of "India and Pakistan becoming NSG members simultaneously" is a joke to begin with.... it is only a matter of time before India becomes member of NSG



I would suggest we keep to facts instead of spinning stories of the maybe's. If there were facts of nuclear proliferation done by China it would not be in that seat denying NSG membership to India. Your attitude of calling other countries a bunch of jokers shows what kind of caliber you will have in real world arguments. Your science and technology has already put one of your nuclear reactors leaking by the papers lately. I am not sure what reality you are referring to but as the rules suggest if there is no signed NPT then there is no admission to the NSG. It does not matter how much of this so called science and technology you are flaunting with these nuclear sub system stuff. Lets see what this matter of time is. I will be here. India will never get into the NSG till the rules of membership are changed while China is sitting in that seat. What needs to be discussed and debated is how to change the rules to get into NSG without signing the NPT. Hence the word Hypocrisy.


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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> Actually not, as per American diplomats, China huffed and puffed against India's NSG waiver as well.
> 
> But eventually submitted to American pressure,
> This part remains a big global mystery, how did great CCP leadership get get bullied into allowing India to have a larger nuclear arsenal, that too by the her main opponent Americans?
> I mean what dirty little secret did the Americans threaten to reveal about the Hu Jintao, that he threw his nation under the bus for it?
> 
> Maybe CCP grew a conscience and believed they deserved it



Actually, most Chinese except those who frequent defense forum don't really care about news about India that much. Announcing China agreed to or objected to the waiver for India on the matter of NSG doesn't really matter to everyday folks. You guys like to overestimate your importance. Chinese people's opinion maybe split on America, but they are pretty uniform about India.

You are right on one thing though, XJP administration is a little tougher than the previous one. Hey, China's size is there, it doesn't have to take shit anymore.

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## Mufflerman

Dungeness said:


> That is very cute. Did "most Chinese" just give you mandate to speak for them?



Yes. Though if you could comprehend the language, you wouldn't conclude that I was speaking on behalf of Chinese. Bot.



Dungeness said:


> Actually, most Chinese except those who frequent defense forum don't really care about news about India that much. Announcing China agreed to or objected to the waiver for India on the matter of NSG doesn't really matter to everyday folks. You guys like to overestimate your importance. Chinese people's opinion maybe spit on America, but they are pretty uniform about India.
> 
> You are right on one thing though, XJP administration is a little tougher than the previous one. Hey, China's size is there, it doesn't have to take shit anymore.



Yeah Chinese don't care about India,maybe true.

But CCP is shitting bricks cause it expended it's entire diplomatic core to stop India's membership. You guys must be exhausted. Guess who will look like idiots when the group finally cracks?


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Great Sachin said:


> Pakistan also filed application for NSG....how many countries supported Pakistan?..any idea


Two: Turkey and China


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## Great Sachin

Syama Ayas said:


> Two: Turkey and China


I just read that Pakistan application was not even considered

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## Dungeness

Mufflerman said:


> Yeah Chinese don't care about India,maybe true.
> 
> But CCP is shitting bricks cause *it expended it's entire diplomatic core to stop India's membership.* You guys must be exhausted. Guess who will look like idiots when the group finally cracks?



nay, China doesn't have to. China has more important thing to do. NSG membership is very important for India somehow, but it is a non issue for China. Chinese people don't care.

Good night, India friends. Nice talking to you guys.

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## Mufflerman

Dungeness said:


> nay, China doesn't have to. China has more important thing to do. NSG membership is very important for India somehow, but it is a non issue for China. Chinese people don't care.
> 
> Good night, India friends. Nice talking to you guys.



The whole world saw the Chinese envoy whining for 2 full days bot. Yea now run away.


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## for truth

forcetrip said:


> I would suggest we keep to facts instead of spinning stories of the maybe's. If there were facts of nuclear proliferation done by China it would not be in that seat denying NSG membership to India. Your attitude of calling other countries a bunch of jokers shows what kind of caliber you will have in real world arguments. Your science and technology has already put one of your nuclear reactors leaking by the papers lately. I am not sure what reality you are referring to but as the rules suggest if there is no signed NPT then there is no admission to the NSG. It does not matter how much of this so called science and technology you are flaunting with these nuclear sub system stuff. Lets see what this matter of time is. I will be here. India will never get into the NSG till the rules of membership are changed while China is sitting in that seat. What needs to be discussed and debated is how to change the rules to get into NSG without signing the NPT. Hence the word Hypocrisy.




And facts is what i stated..

few months back there was thread about India being one of the top countries in publishing scientific publications, may be that will do for you? Or how about the fact that every year dozens of Pakistanis visit India for health care because of unavailability of sophisticated health care in Pakistan, how about this? Did I "flaunt" enough of science stuff? Oh, did i mention ISRO too? the mars mission of India proved to world that Indians are now capable of writing complex algorithms and undertake highly complex tasks.....now, was the "flaunting" enough?

As long as you here...India already has been granted the NSG waiver years back despite Chinese opposition, we are already getting nuclear reactors and materials from western powers. Is Pakistan? For a change, rather that talking political stuff do look at look progress of India in other fields, may be then the picture will become clear for you as to why many countries have so openly endorsed India than Pakistan.

But something you failed to understand here is that......... "nobody can stop an idea whose time has come".

It was India's time when we got the waiver, it was India's time to become member of MTCR, and when it's time, India will enter the NSG too...alone


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## grey boy 2

Dear Indian friends
Although i personally admire your " It ain't over till its over" efforts
However unfortunately your NSG bid has failed miserably regardless of whatever reasons or excuses
I can feel your "pain"
Perhaps its time to accept the reality its "OVER" and move on, shall we?

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## SOHEIL

ConcealCarry said:


> Indian duplicity and complicity in helping rouge states like NK and Iran are exposed. Indians are already guilty of nuclear proliferation without being NNSG member, think what they will do after they become a member?

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## Ghazwa e Hind

*Washington: * A US Senator has praised the NSG for deciding against granting India membership of the grouping immediately, after the elite group's plenary meeting ended in Seoul with no decision on India's membership in face of strong China-led opposition.

"Today, the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) reaffirmed its strong support for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) by refraining from admitting India," Junior Democratic Senator from Massachusetts Edward Markey said in a statement.

The NSG was founded in response to India's 1974 nuclear test and it has worked for decades to prevent the sharing of technology that could contribute to the further spread of nuclear weapons, he said yesterday.

"If India joined the Nuclear Supplier Group, it would be the only participating government in the organisation that was not a party to the NPT, weakening the NSG's commitment to the treaty. By refraining from admitting India, the NSG strengthened both the treaty and the broader global nonproliferation regime," Mr Markey said.

As a member of the US House of Representative, Mr Markey has unsuccessfully led effort to block passage of civil nuclear deal between India and the US. Last month during a Congressional hearing, Mr Markey had opposed India's NSG membership application.

The NSG yesterday ended its plenary meeting in Seoul with no decision on India's membership.

"The NSG plenary in Seoul earlier in the day decided against granting India membership of the grouping immediately and said it will continue to have discussions on participation of countries which have not signed the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty," External Affairs Ministry Spokesperson Vikas Swarup said yesterday.

China, which had made no secret of its opposition, succeeded in scuttling India's bid despite a significant majority backing the Indian case. Thirty-eight countries supported India, according to Indian officials.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-s...-after-india-failed-to-get-membership-1423232

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## fsayed

Take a look at @Chellaney's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746630639609331713
@nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @Stephen Cohen @anant_s

@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @ranjeet

@GURU DUTT @HariPrasad

Take a look at @Chellaney's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746316737671532544

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## newb3e

Bhai kia howa India super power ban gaya kia?


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## somebozo

Ghazwa e Hind said:


> "Today, the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) reaffirmed its strong support for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) by refraining from admitting India," Junior Democratic Senator from Massachusetts Edward Markey said in a statement.



Any rational person will not support exceptions inside an organisation whose primary purpose of existence is control by criteria...Its like having bio-metric access control at the door..but granting exception to one person..it does not work...


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## Path-Finder

I have only started to realise that this NSG business was a huge deal for them and they had a lot riding on it.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

somebozo said:


> *Any rational person will not support exceptions inside an organisation whose primary purpose of existence is control by criteria.*..Its like having bio-metric access control at the door..but granting exception to one person..it does not work...


Guess the Chinese are not rational people for accepting India's NSG waiver


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## somebozo

Syama Ayas said:


> Guess the Chinese are not rational people for accepting India's NSG waiver



A waiver can be issued and can be withdrawn..and the Chinese want to keep an edge over it...


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

somebozo said:


> A waiver can be issued and can be withdrawn..and the Chinese want to keep an edge over it...


Except that withdrawal of that waiver requires consensus of all NSG members. Even a single vote could foil Chinese attempts.

Given the current level of support for India has for her NSG membership, the odds against Chinese attempts to nullify the waiver are higher than India's NSG membership chances.


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## Director General

Senator Markey has been a complete failure.
He opposed the India-US Nucear deal but failed miserably as majority of Congress cleared the deal.
In 2010 he also opposed sale of AH-64E to India and once again he failed as vast majority of Congress refused to back him in blocking the deal.
Then he also wanted US to block sale of certain componets used by India in aircrafts and satellites but DoD paid no attention to his requests.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

*FOR INDIAN MEMBERS....STOP MOANING ABOUT CHINA.......

Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Italy, Romania, Belarus, Turkey, China, Austria, Ireland, Belgium and New Zealand oppose extending concessions to India

Wasn't Dawn a very credible source for Indians? Just look at the comments section....filled with Indian bakhts....

http://www.dawn.com/news/1267070/nsg-terms-npt-bedrock-of-non-proliferation-regime*

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## Pandora

This NSG membership had more to do with Indian Pride rather than any benefits from it. This refusal has really hurt indian pride and their superiority complex. It is a good reminder to Indians that this is a multi-polar world.

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## randomradio

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> *FOR INDIAN MEMBERS....STOP MOANING ABOUT CHINA.......
> 
> Brazil, Russia, Mexico, Italy, Romania, Belarus, Turkey, China, Austria, Ireland, Belgium and New Zealand oppose extending concessions to India
> 
> Wasn't Dawn a very credible source for Indians? Just look at the comments section....filled with Indian bakhts....
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1267070/nsg-terms-npt-bedrock-of-non-proliferation-regime*



Out of all the countries, only China has said India has to sign the NPT for NSG entry. All other countries are talking about allowing India in without the NPT, they only want implementation of NPT, which India has done.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

randomradio said:


> Out of all the countries, only China has said India has to sign the NPT for NSG entry. All other countries are talking about allowing India in without the NPT, they only want implementation of NPT, which India has done.



*Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at Carnegie Endowment, tweeted that about a quarter of the 48 member-NSG raised issues about Indian candidature.

The NSG works through consensus and India would not have been able to make it into the club even if a single country had opposed its application.

The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1266838/indias-bid-to-join-nsg-hits-dead-end*

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## war&peace

So basically Uncle Sam was playing with the emotions of the poor Indians and took them for a first ride and much more to come in future....happy ending


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## randomradio

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> *Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at Carnegie Endowment, tweeted that about a quarter of the 48 member-NSG raised issues about Indian candidature.
> 
> The NSG works through consensus and India would not have been able to make it into the club even if a single country had opposed its application.
> 
> The criticism of India was not only that it had not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), but also that it had not fulfilled the commitments it made while getting NSG waiver in 2008. It has neither made progress towards CTBT nor has separated its civilian and military nuclear reactors.
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1266838/indias-bid-to-join-nsg-hits-dead-end*



And now those countries are working on a back door entry for India. They only want India to implement the NPT, not sign it.


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## Chinese-Dragon

randomradio said:


> And now those countries are working on a back door entry for India. They only want India to implement the NPT, not sign it.



India can never sign or even implement the NPT, because the NPT says that there are only 5 legitimate nuclear powers in the world (the UNSC P5).

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## My-Analogous

Nilgiri said:


> http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_china_exports.html
> 
> *Top 10 Chinese Exports to India*
> 
> 1. Electronic equipment: $13.4 billion
> 2. Machinery: $10.2 billion
> 3. Organic chemicals: $5.9 billion
> 4. Fertilizers: $3.5 billion
> 5. Iron and steel: $2.3 billion
> 6. Plastics: $2.1 billion
> 7. Furniture, lighting, signs: $2 billion
> 8. Medical, technical equipment: $1.5 billion
> 9. Iron or steel products: $1.4 billion
> 10. Vehicles: $1.2 billion
> 
> So lets assume electronics is left alone for arguments sake since Chinese members believe a large part or most of it is price inelastic (which they may be right about, it will have to be broken further down to know for sure....maybe Nirmala Sitharaman and co know the better analysis for this).
> 
> That still leaves these other significant chunks that can all be effectively targeted as needed according to the number of jobs (and expecially further Value addition) they support within India (i.e how "raw" of an import they are and their importance in a larger supply chain/requirement).
> 
> Items that are strictly end use (i.e have no further impact in Indian generated GVA or job provision) and have multiple domestic and/or other international suppliers at price points of say a few % points higher can be given a tarrif of that % + 1 etc.
> 
> Everything will have to be broken down, analysed and then done accordingly by the commerce ministry.
> 
> They have about a year to plan since thats what the US is saying w.r.t further discussions regaring NSG membership.
> 
> But its good to do this anyway (regardless of NSG situation) and execute at the appropriate periods. It will be another litmus test for the Modi administration....I hope he takes it seriously. Boycotting by people on the ground is only so good because market forces are hard to overcome for most regular non-elite people.
> 
> It could be just the impetus that the make in India program requires combined with the good monsoon forecasted this year and improvement of credit situation. Hope India makes the best of it.



Oh mighty self claim supor powa and need of the whole universe India, please note that by connecting Pakistan via CPEC give lots of goods things to China and when we comparing with this what you offer is not even peanut. Anyway carry on with your mightiness and we dame care.


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## SrNair

forcetrip said:


> Yes. Taking world climate hostage is not going to further Chinas evil designs being one of the top polluters in the world. Indias diplomacy is all over the place. On one hand they got an unbelievable victory of getting a nod from the US which is where they should have stopped instead of aiming for unrealistic goal of actually getting a consensus which includes a heavy weight NSG member China who will never ever let India get in there without Pakistan getting in even if its the only disagreeing vote. If India wants the NSG then it uses its diplomatic clout and lobby to get Pakistan in, if not then it should just lobby to get the rules changed of entry into the NSG. I am sure it would be more likely for a country of Indias stature to change the rules and make another institution follow what has happened to the UN and child murdering case by two countries.



Agreed .
And our MEA minister already pointed out that we also wont oppose any other nations including Islamabad .Am I right ?
First of all India is only trying for getting NSG .Still we are not a member in NSG ,then how can we lobby for Pakistan 
In this diplomatic game US is the real winner and China is the loser .For us ,Indians it was a reality check .
Indians checked whether China is actually worries about our growth and US used this opportunity to turn the opinion of the Indians against Chinese .Now both of them got the outcome 
Chinese are really bogging down in their own boundaries .No matter what we will continue our effort more aggressively .Lets see how much these Chinese can hold .


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## randomradio

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India can never sign or even implement the NPT, because the NPT says that there are only 5 legitimate nuclear powers in the world (the UNSC P5).



As usual, you are confused about the NPT and its implementation.

China has not implemented the NPT. China has proliferated nuclear tech to both N. Korea and Pakistan.

India has implemented the NPT by not having proliferated nuclear tech to anybody.



indno said:


> Today BrahMos missile was test-flown from Su-30 MKI fighter jet. World will envy IAF, says BrahMos Aerospace MD
> 
> Don't you think India can be military threat to the world in future. Signing NPT is for precaution.



India will definitely be a global military power. But India's democratic institutions give the country more credibility. India actually prefers a global disarmament. India's policy is "Everybody should have nukes or no one should have nukes".

The problem with China is they fear India will start selling reactors to Vietnam and other ASEAN countries. You think China gives too hoots about Pakistan.

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## SrNair

BetterPakistan said:


> Really? If you think Russia will back you against China than you guys are mistaken.



Russia would be neutral when it it becomes China Vs India .
Both of them are their important partners .

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## BetterPakistan

SrNair said:


> Russia would be neutral when it it becomes China Vs India .
> Both of them are their important partners .



Yeah, it could be.


----------



## SrNair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Here you go:
> 
> LSA, CISMOA, BECA and the Future of the US-India Defense Partnership - The Diplomat




Finally .
He acted like a TTA .He got the signed documents of LSA /CISMOA 

@Syama Ayas @fsayed

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## Chinese-Dragon

randomradio said:


> China has not implemented the NPT. China has proliferated nuclear tech to both N. Korea and Pakistan.
> 
> India has implemented the NPT by not having proliferated nuclear tech to anybody.



So how come we are one of the 5 recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, the same 5 countries who form the UNSC P5. 

While India is locked out of the NPT (like North Korea), the NSG and the UNSC P5? Despite begging for over a decade? 



SrNair said:


> Finally .
> He acted like a TTA .He got the signed documents of LSA /CISMOA
> 
> @Syama Ayas @fsayed



How does it feel to know you sold your sovereignty for an NSG seat, and you didn't even get the NSG seat?

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## SrNair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India can never sign or even implement the NPT, because the NPT says that there are only 5 legitimate nuclear powers in the world (the UNSC P5).



Well who wrote these laws ?
And what happen if someone out there that gives two hoots to this treaties of some other nation ?
We know how to play games .

And for us Indians ,for the first time we have seen the exercise of our global clout and diplomatic prowess .
MEA did a good job .

Whether you like it or not ,a strong growing economy and world largest democracy reputation is giving us additional advantage .
Our impeccable non proliferation record also a force multiplier .



Chinese-Dragon said:


> So how come we are one of the 5 recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, the same 5 countries who form the UNSC P5.
> 
> While India is locked out of the NPT (like North Korea), the NSG and the UNSC P5? Despite begging for over a decade?
> 
> 
> 
> How does it feel to know you sold your sovereignty for an NSG seat, and you didn't even get the NSG seat?



Ya right .Like I said you got signed document of LSA .
And now talking to us about our sovreignity .And you knows more than us .
Keep it up TTA .Nice job .

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## Chinese-Dragon

SrNair said:


> Well who wrote these laws ?
> And what happen if someone out there that gives two hoots to this treaties of some other nation ?
> We know how to play games .



Everyone in the world has signed the NPT apart from India, North Korea, Pakistan and South Sudan. 

And the 5 countries sitting at the high table are the same in the NPT and the UNSC: China, Russia, Britain, America, France.

And we have this thing called "veto power" which Indians can't seem to understand. Just a few days ago every single Indian member was boasting about how China could not stop them from entering the NSG.

LOL. Veto power means we can stop any resolution and any new entry. For any reason at all.

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## SrNair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So how come we are one of the 5 recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, the same 5 countries who form the UNSC P5.
> 
> While India is locked out of the NPT (like North Korea), the NSG and the UNSC P5? Despite begging for over a decade?
> 
> 
> 
> How does it feel to know you sold your sovereignty for an NSG seat, and you didn't even get the NSG seat?




Begging ?
Neither we begged or nor we stole others IPR.

World come to us for  nuke deal because they could see our accomplishments even after 34 year sanction.

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## Chinese-Dragon

SrNair said:


> Begging ?
> Neither we begged or nor we stole others IPR.
> 
> World come to us for nuke deal because they could see our accomplishments even after 34 year sanction.



If this is not begging, then what is?

PM Modi asks China to back India's bid for UNSC seat, NSG membership - DNA India

It seems you still don't understand what "veto power" means. It means we can shut you down anytime we want, like we just did in the NSG.

You guys keep trying to figure out ways to "bypass" the veto power. Sorry it doesn't work like that.

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## SrNair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Everyone in the world has signed the NPT apart from India, North Korea, Pakistan and South Sudan.
> 
> And the 5 countries sitting at the high table are the same in the NPT and the UNSC: China, Russia, Britain, America, France.
> 
> And we have this thing called "veto power" which Indians can't seem to understand. Just a few days ago every single Indian member was boasting about how China could not stop them from entering the NSG.
> 
> LOL. Veto power means we can stop any resolution and any new entry. For any reason at all.



We wont sign NPT and we will accumulate our power for our own interests.
Some others said that we also wouldnt get MTCR .But now what?


We knew China will try to veto .
We anticipiated these move even before this session .That is what you can see from remarks of our MEA .
They only told about one nation .And it says a lots I mean a lots or I would say they begin to concentrate on the counter measures .

Might is Right .We both knows that and we will play the same game .



Chinese-Dragon said:


> If this is not begging, then what is?
> 
> PM Modi asks China to back India's bid for UNSC seat, NSG membership - DNA India
> 
> It seems you still don't understand what "veto power" means. It means we can shut you down anytime we want, like we just did in the NSG.
> 
> You guys keep trying to figure out ways to "bypass" the veto power. Sorry it doesn't work like that.



Or I would say a last peaceful attempt .

If that seems as a 'beg' to you then only thing I can say that you got another golden feather to your TTA job 

We already have all those benefits after NSG waiver .This is a formality and we will continue to push this .


Any way kudos to Chinese diplomacy .
Almost all neighbours looks suspiciously towards China .Fantastic job .


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## fsayed

SrNair said:


> Finally .
> He acted like a TTA .He got the signed documents of LSA /CISMOA
> 
> @Syama Ayas @fsayed


I think he is confused poor chap

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## randomradio

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So how come we are one of the 5 recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, the same 5 countries who form the UNSC P5.
> 
> While India is locked out of the NPT (like North Korea), the NSG and the UNSC P5? Despite begging for over a decade?



India's never begged to be in anything. So  back to you.

When UNSC was formed, India wasn't an independent country. So after independence, there was no chance for India to get in without being a global power first, that's slowly happening now.

NSG and NPT were created to stop India. They were in fact created to disarm India and keep India out of nuclear trade. Has China disarmed India yet?

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## Chinese-Dragon

randomradio said:


> India's never begged to be in anything. So  back to you.
> 
> When UNSC was formed, India wasn't an independent country. So after independence, there was no chance for India to get in without being a global power first, that's slowly happening now.
> 
> NSG and NPT were created to stop India. They were in fact created to disarm India and keep India out of nuclear trade. Has China disarmed India yet?



Haha we weren't a part of the NPT or NSG either, we were very late arrivals.

But we managed to get in, and we even managed to get the NPT to recognize us as one of the 5 legitimate nuclear powers in the world, same with the rest of the UNSC P5.

India can do that too. But only if they can offer something good enough to China, since we have veto power.

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## dray

grey boy 2 said:


> Dear Indian friends
> Although i personally admire your " It ain't over till its over" efforts
> However unfortunately your NSG bid has failed miserably regardless of whatever reasons or excuses
> I can feel your "pain"
> Perhaps its time to accept the reality its "OVER" and move on, shall we?



NOPE. It's not over till we get it.

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## randomradio

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Haha we weren't a part of the NPT or NSG either, we were very late arrivals.
> 
> But we managed to get in, and we even managed to get the NPT to recognize us as one of the 5 legitimate nuclear powers in the world, same with the rest of the UNSC P5.



It's not that China managed to 'get in'. China was always in these treaties.

China was given the UNSC P5 because India wasn't independent then. The only other alternative was Japan, that was unacceptable to anybody.



> India can do that too. But only if they can offer something good enough to China, since we have veto power.



There are other way to get it.

NPT is entirely irrelevant to India. That's why all countries except China have objections. And Chinese objections are not because India is not a signatory, but that India is a threat to China. The NPT is only an excuse.

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## Providence

Just turn back the pages of history. China never had a true friend of sorts ever. It got marauded over and over again because of it's aggressive policies. History will repeat soon


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## Anees

neem456 said:


> Sir, NSG rejected their case even to be discussed.
> Only indian case is under scrutiny.
> 
> 
> 
> .



That Not Surprise...


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## ConcealCarry

Were you under sanctions for the last 40 years or not?



Syama Ayas said:


> Irony of Pakistanis calling Iranians a "rouge" state.
> @SOHEIL @Serpentine


----------



## dadeechi

Nilgiri said:


> Explain how it will hurt India? We have already taken action against Chinese steel dumping....and thats an intermediate good.
> 
> Finished goods are the really soft target. Our consumers can take a little hit on the price increase if needed, esp if it means helping domestic and non-chinese industry.
> 
> What are we importing from China that is absolutely critical? Energy? Nope. Transport? Nope. Education? Nope. Health? Nope.....Imports of finished goods are price elastic...so are the machinery and capital goods, plenty of suppliers for those...even domestic ones. A little closing off from China can be a good thing for India from that stand point alone.
> 
> The only thing that needs caution are intermediate goods that are inputs for Indian manufacturing jobs. Other than that, pretty punitive action can be taken. Indian exports to China are not that significant if they resort to a trade war. CAD will improve overall.



China has given a perfect excuse for India to shutdown their business in India and India should make full use of this opportunity.

This would be the first step for India to turn this failure into a success. 

We need coordinated actions by the government, media and the people to make it a success.

laaton ke bhoot baaton se nahi mante

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## BattlespaceX




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## BattlespaceX



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## That Guy

arbit said:


> Yes. So ?


A simply reply, and a simple observation. Perhaps you should read what I was replying to.


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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> Oh mighty self claim supor powa and need of the whole universe India, please note that by connecting Pakistan via CPEC give lots of goods things to China and when we comparing with this what you offer is not even peanut. Anyway carry on with your mightiness and we dame care.



That reply did not concern Pakistan one little bit. How much does Pakistan trade with China (its all weather friend) compared to India do you know?


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## Irfan Baloch

Genghis khan1 said:


> *India’s NSG bid hits snag: Members rake up non-NPT status, oppose induction*
> *Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India's NSG bid citing its non-NPT status.*
> 326
> SHARES
> Express Web Desk | New Delhi | Updated: June 23, 2016 10:24 pm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Ministry of External Affair (MEA), PM Modi urged China to make a fair and objective assessment of India’s application on merit.
> At the Nuclear Security Group plenary meeting in Seoul Thursday, it appears that China is not the sole opponent of India’s induction into the 48-member group.
> 
> Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey have opposed India’s NSG bid citing its non-NPT status, according to news agency ANI. Mexico, however, made good of its promise to back India’s bid at the meeting after Prime Minister Narendra Modi sought their support during his recent visit to the country.
> 
> It must have come as a surprise to India after Brazil, a key ally and member of the BRICS, has put its foot down against its bid. A clear consensus among the member states is yet to emerge regarding India’s accession to the group.
> 
> Interestingly, no discussion took place on the induction of Pakistan to the NSG, despite China backing its bid.
> 
> PM Modi today met Chinese President Xi Jinping in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. According to the Ministry of External Affair (MEA), PM Modi urged China to make a fair and objective assessment of India’s application on merit.
> 
> Pakistan President, who is also in Tashkent for the SCO, told Xi Jinping that any exemptions given to a country for NSG membership could disturb strategic stability in South Asia.
> 
> India currently has the backing of France, USA, Japan among others.
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ndia-nsg-bid-meet-seoul-live-updates-2871865/




this makes sense
I mean a country that was the cause of making this organisation to prevent unlawful use of nuclear material for military use. refuses to sign NPT .. wants to be part of the exclusive club through force and intimidation just because America needs it against China. for once the justice prevailed and best part is that it was not just China that opposed its induction but other countries too.

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## ChinaToday

*India’s Failed NSG Bid: Move Aside US, China is the New Sheriff in Town*

*China successfully stared down the US in Seoul while trying to control the nuclear order – once an American playing field where Washington set the rules.*



Credit: PTI/File Photo


*Washington:* The events in Seoul are not just a setback for India because its high-octane bid to enter the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) failed, but they are also a reality check for the US.

There is a new sheriff in town, swaggering and seizing new terrain.

China successfully stared down the US in Seoul, staking territory while trying to control the nuclear order. It used to be an American playing field where Washington set the rules, decided who was in and who was out.

China’s power play will reverberate across Asia, leaving behind tough questions about the emerging reality. It will impact calculations of countries as they assess the weather over South China Sea and the Pacific, and think about the American pivot. They might favour rebalancing themselves in a new way.

It must be sobering for US President Barack Obama to realise how far he has gone from his ‘rock star’ status in 2008, when the western world seemed in awe and leaders lined up to shake his hand to imbibe some of the magic. Today, his name invokes neither fear nor love as he prepares to end his tenure.

Obama couldn’t keep his promise to Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the NSG, at least not this time around. It remains to be seen if an “extraordinary” NSG plenary is called before the year is out to make another push for India’s membership. In the meantime, India has hinted it may not ratify the Paris climate agreement, something that Obama and Europeans really want.

US and Indian officials say that Obama was personally engaged in the NSG diplomacy, that secretary of state John Kerry made calls, as did Tony Blinken, his deputy. Blinken was in daily contact with foreign secretary S. Jaishankar to plot strategy and exchange notes. The White House reportedly called the leaders of Austria, Ireland and New Zealand. A US official described it as a “very, very intense engagement”.

An Indian official corroborated the statement: “It was a 100% effort by the Americans. Without them, things wouldn’t have reached as far as they did. They put their reputation on line”.

Yet an impression lingers that Obama isn’t as invested or enthusiastic as George Bush about India and the whole nuclear issue. After all, just two months ago he equated India and Pakistan’s nuclear programmes at the Nuclear Security Summit and implied they were moving in the “wrong direction”. New Delhi found that offensive.

Obama’s White House has also flirted with the idea of giving Pakistan a nuclear deal, thanks to some officials who are said to be close to Pakistani generals and others who don’t like India enough. Senior officials in the Bush team had a clearer vision and plan for India’s inclusion in the global nuclear architecture. They stayed on message.

In Seoul, the Obama administration couldn’t prevail over or convince countries such as New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland and Austria to come fully on board to isolate China. The presence of these “conscientious” objectors – who admittedly don’t oppose India’s entry on principle but want some criteria in place – allowed China to play procedural games with aplomb. In turn, China was the wall they stood behind.

These countries raised “questions on process, not substance” about what criteria ought to be used to admit countries that haven’t signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This must have pleased China, “which created procedural blocks at every single turn, from the time the session opened to the last minute,” according to a US official. “The Chinese were extremely obstinate”.

But everyone knew China would be, because it had made its stand and intentions clear. It was Xi Jinping’s China. Yet, the India-US combined strategy was the same as in 2008 when Hu Jintao was in power. Essentially, it was to “winnow the field,” and isolate China as the lone man standing.

But Xi is the happiest lone man standing, unafraid to use his considerable elbows. Perhaps a very different line of attack and defence was required. It seems the White House left it to India to make “the final play” and reach some sort of understanding when Modi met Xi just before the Seoul plenary. The Americans didn’t really plan a countermove themselves.

Interestingly, America’s own band of NGO non-proliferation hardliners also played for the Chinese side, not the American. Some of them reportedly signed a letter sent to the NSG chair before the Seoul plenary, slamming India’s non-proliferation credentials in the worst way possible. The issues raised make India’s record seem almost as bad as that of Pakistan.

But then, non-pro hardliners have been targeting India for years. It is they who first came up with most of the ideas that China and Pakistan float as bare necessities of a new nuclear order. One of them wrote in favour of a “criteria-based process” that would “preserve Pakistan’s prospects for future admission” just before the plenary.

At the same time, he wondered if allowing India and Pakistan into the NSG was really worth the trouble because the “club” could get “ensnarled” in “animosity”. Trouble is western analysts can’t be bothered to differentiate between two very separate histories and trajectories. They resort to “pox-on-both-their-houses” as an easy way out.

As India deals with disappointment and the US with the new normal, what neither should do is give more reason to China to celebrate.

http://thewire.in/45886/indias-failed-nsg-bid-move-aside-us-china-is-the-new-sheriff-in-town/

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## PaklovesTurkiye

*The BJP government's misadventure to pit Beijing against New Delhi on a global forum will incur a huge cost.
*
*POLITICS
| 5-minute read | 25-06-2016



ASHOK SWAIN
*
The Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) annual plenary session in Seoul ended on June 24 even without a discussion on India's membership application. Whatever the official spin, this outcome was not unexpected.

No one questions India's eligibility to be a member of this exclusive club, however the diplomatic blitzkrieg approach Narendra Modi and his foreign policy "team" took to achieve it raises serious doubts about their basic understanding of the realpolitik in the post-2008 world.





This 'event management' style of foreign policy has become too costly for India.
By not becoming a member of NSG, which was formed mainly in response to India's first nuclear test in 1974, India has not lost much per se.

Most of membership benefits have been already accrued due to the grant of an exemption by this export-control cartel, which was negotiated diligently by the UPA government in 2008.

Only tangible benefit India can get by being a member of the NSG is that it can prevent Pakistan from being a member in future.

Also read - Foolish to even think China will support India's NSG bid

Thus it is obvious to ask why Modi raised the stakes on pushing the agenda. Undoubtedly, it would have given him and his supporters the possibility to drumbeat the hype of his stature as a "global leader".

However, this "event management" style of foreign policy without a comprehensive global power analysis has become too costly for India.

Foreign policy success since the AB Vajpayee regime to de-hyphenate India from Pakistan in the global arena has taken a serious beating with Modi's misadventures.

Upon failing to get NSG membership, Modi administration tries to spin that it had managed to isolate China in Seoul and successfully created a near consensus in the favour of its application. This is merely a lie.

Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.

Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.

Since 2008, India had managed to secure itself from being censured on the NPT issue, but Modi has exposed India yet again.

The list of losses for the thoughtless hoopla over NSG membership is a long one. It has enhanced Pakistan to be hyphenated with India and has also exposed the country to global pressure over signing the NPT.

The immense negative blow of this senseless jingoism in Modi's foreign policy is that it has helped China to shed its inhibition in openly coming out against India in global fora.

Some Modi supporters are trying hard to paint it as a success as India is finally playing power politics at the big table.

Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal. China, in spite of its huge economic strength and massive domination in both conventional and nuclear military hardware, was reluctant to even enter into any confrontation with the global power system until the 2008 global financial crisis.

But Modi, ever in a hurry to prove himself, does not want to wait for the right moment.

In open confrontation with China, India has most to lose. We have a ballooning trade deficit vis-à-vis China.

In the last year, deficit figure has reached close to 50 billion dollars in China's favour. Moreover, while China exports telecommunications equipment, computer hardware, industrial machinery and other manufactured goods, India sends back mostly raw materials such as cotton yarn, gems and other precious metals like copper and iron ore.

The character of exported goods exposes the state of industrial development of exporting countries. On industrial and economic development fronts, India lags at least two decades behind China, if not more.

In economic terms, India needs China more than China needs India. While China is extremely adept in dealing with emotive issues, not affecting its bilateral commercial ties, India does not have much experience in managing this contradiction.

After open confrontation over the NSG membership, the hawkish views on China within Sangh Parivar could very likely gain traction and that might affect bilateral trade relations.

China not only has the upper hand over the bilateral trade, but also upstream control over a large portion of India's river water, originating from the Himalayas.

While India has been traditionally playing the powerful role of an upstream riparian vis-à-vis Bangladesh with respect to the Brahmaputra river, that honour has now gone to China after its decision to build five major dams on the river.

Also read - Politics behind India's bid for NSG

China has also built dams on the upper reaches of the Indus and Sutlej rivers. India is now to a large extent dependent on China for the execution of its grand river-linking plan to meet the growing water scarcity in the country.

China's influence is immense on most of India's neighbours. One doesn't need to elaborate China's control over its "iron brother" Pakistan and "ideological brother" Myanmar.

For many years now, China has also cultivated its strategic assets in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives.

Even in Nepal, China is playing the role of a kingmaker. To counter China in the neighbourhood, India possesses a single Dalai Lama card, and that is fast losing its importance in front of China's increasing global power and influence.

It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China.

While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.

The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.

The latter's nuisance value is immense over India's goals of achieving economic development, food security as well as internal stability and regional cooperation.

Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council.

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html

Not trying to influence your opinion but i believe China should never submit to psychological warfare being played by India...Indians are shamelessly trying to make China appear bad cop despite knowing others opposed their bid too. This shows a very rude and unethical on part of India. It requires tremendous confidence (shame u should read) to do such thing. I believe that China should keep pressure on India time by time. It is very necessary to put them in check. They have opposed CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor) , singed Logistics agreement with US, involved in encouraging China and Pakistan separatist factions, blocking of Nepal and what not. If allowed go uncheck, they'll wreck havoc in this region. They need some nice and humble attitude and only Pakistan and China can provide them that. They need some really serious taming because they are riding too high, crossing their limits and looking down upon us. 
On the other hand, We Pakistanis are going very well along with you. Will Love to see more close cooperation with you guys in future in every arena of the world.  

@Chinese-Dragon @rott @grey boy 2 @GS Zhou @AndrewJin @Beast @Dungeness @beijingwalker @oprih @cirr @+4vsgorillas-Apebane @Tiqiu

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## PaklovesTurkiye

ChinaToday said:


> *India’s Failed NSG Bid: Move Aside US, China is the New Sheriff in Town*
> 
> *China successfully stared down the US in Seoul while trying to control the nuclear order – once an American playing field where Washington set the rules.*
> 
> 
> 
> Credit: PTI/File Photo
> 
> 
> *Washington:* The events in Seoul are not just a setback for India because its high-octane bid to enter the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) failed, but they are also a reality check for the US.
> 
> There is a new sheriff in town, swaggering and seizing new terrain.
> 
> China successfully stared down the US in Seoul, staking territory while trying to control the nuclear order. It used to be an American playing field where Washington set the rules, decided who was in and who was out.
> 
> China’s power play will reverberate across Asia, leaving behind tough questions about the emerging reality. It will impact calculations of countries as they assess the weather over South China Sea and the Pacific, and think about the American pivot. They might favour rebalancing themselves in a new way.
> 
> It must be sobering for US President Barack Obama to realise how far he has gone from his ‘rock star’ status in 2008, when the western world seemed in awe and leaders lined up to shake his hand to imbibe some of the magic. Today, his name invokes neither fear nor love as he prepares to end his tenure.
> 
> Obama couldn’t keep his promise to Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the NSG, at least not this time around. It remains to be seen if an “extraordinary” NSG plenary is called before the year is out to make another push for India’s membership. In the meantime, India has hinted it may not ratify the Paris climate agreement, something that Obama and Europeans really want.
> 
> US and Indian officials say that Obama was personally engaged in the NSG diplomacy, that secretary of state John Kerry made calls, as did Tony Blinken, his deputy. Blinken was in daily contact with foreign secretary S. Jaishankar to plot strategy and exchange notes. The White House reportedly called the leaders of Austria, Ireland and New Zealand. A US official described it as a “very, very intense engagement”.
> 
> An Indian official corroborated the statement: “It was a 100% effort by the Americans. Without them, things wouldn’t have reached as far as they did. They put their reputation on line”.
> 
> Yet an impression lingers that Obama isn’t as invested or enthusiastic as George Bush about India and the whole nuclear issue. After all, just two months ago he equated India and Pakistan’s nuclear programmes at the Nuclear Security Summit and implied they were moving in the “wrong direction”. New Delhi found that offensive.
> 
> Obama’s White House has also flirted with the idea of giving Pakistan a nuclear deal, thanks to some officials who are said to be close to Pakistani generals and others who don’t like India enough. Senior officials in the Bush team had a clearer vision and plan for India’s inclusion in the global nuclear architecture. They stayed on message.
> 
> In Seoul, the Obama administration couldn’t prevail over or convince countries such as New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland and Austria to come fully on board to isolate China. The presence of these “conscientious” objectors – who admittedly don’t oppose India’s entry on principle but want some criteria in place – allowed China to play procedural games with aplomb. In turn, China was the wall they stood behind.
> 
> These countries raised “questions on process, not substance” about what criteria ought to be used to admit countries that haven’t signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This must have pleased China, “which created procedural blocks at every single turn, from the time the session opened to the last minute,” according to a US official. “The Chinese were extremely obstinate”.
> 
> But everyone knew China would be, because it had made its stand and intentions clear. It was Xi Jinping’s China. Yet, the India-US combined strategy was the same as in 2008 when Hu Jintao was in power. Essentially, it was to “winnow the field,” and isolate China as the lone man standing.
> 
> But Xi is the happiest lone man standing, unafraid to use his considerable elbows. Perhaps a very different line of attack and defence was required. It seems the White House left it to India to make “the final play” and reach some sort of understanding when Modi met Xi just before the Seoul plenary. The Americans didn’t really plan a countermove themselves.
> 
> Interestingly, America’s own band of NGO non-proliferation hardliners also played for the Chinese side, not the American. Some of them reportedly signed a letter sent to the NSG chair before the Seoul plenary, slamming India’s non-proliferation credentials in the worst way possible. The issues raised make India’s record seem almost as bad as that of Pakistan.
> 
> But then, non-pro hardliners have been targeting India for years. It is they who first came up with most of the ideas that China and Pakistan float as bare necessities of a new nuclear order. One of them wrote in favour of a “criteria-based process” that would “preserve Pakistan’s prospects for future admission” just before the plenary.
> 
> At the same time, he wondered if allowing India and Pakistan into the NSG was really worth the trouble because the “club” could get “ensnarled” in “animosity”. Trouble is western analysts can’t be bothered to differentiate between two very separate histories and trajectories. They resort to “pox-on-both-their-houses” as an easy way out.
> 
> As India deals with disappointment and the US with the new normal, what neither should do is give more reason to China to celebrate.
> 
> http://thewire.in/45886/indias-failed-nsg-bid-move-aside-us-china-is-the-new-sheriff-in-town/



China along with other countries did a tremendous job....Kudos to all those countries who refused to bow down under US pressure.

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## Nilgiri

dadeechi said:


> China has given a perfect excuse for India to shutdown their business in India and India should make full use of this opportunity.
> 
> This would be the first step for India to turn this failure into a success.
> 
> We need coordinated actions by the government, media and the people to make it a success.
> 
> laaton ke bhoot baaton se nahi mante



It may have been the intention all along. NSG admission may actually have hurt India in the long run (if China deficit was allowed to continue with no countering) compared to the result now. Our trade with the world is 99.999% composed of non-nuclear trade

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## war&peace

That was a gamble that Modi played and lost and of course it will have repercussions. Though Pakistan woke up at eleventh hour and fifty ninth minute, it still got its act together and was able to at least block India's entry on fair grounds, now it is NPT vs non-NPT members states, a principled stance. However, Pakistan needs concerted diplomacy to get a place in MTCR.

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## DesiGuy1403

People here are passing comments during a test match only when one innings is over.

There are more innings, so, wait & watch.

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## Mrc

That was the whole thought behind american push for india... offcourse they knew it will not succeed, and will be blocked hy china...
They wanted relation to go sour between the two

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## DesiGuy1403

Mrc said:


> That was the whole thought behind american push for india... offcourse they knew it will not succeed, and will be blocked hy china...
> They wanted relation to go sour between the two



What relations between China and India?

You mean the relation where China backed a terrorist against India in UN?

And you think Indians did not plan for aftermath of China blocking India's bid for NSG?

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## dadeechi

Nilgiri said:


> It may have been the intention all along. NSG admission may actually have hurt India in the long run (if China deficit was allowed to continue with no countering) compared to the result now. Our trade with the world is 99.999% composed of non-nuclear trade



Absolutely, controlling CAD is more important than NSG title.

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## Mrc

DesiGuy1403 said:


> What relations between China and India?
> 
> You mean the relation where China backed a terrorist against India in UN?
> 
> And you think Indians did not plan for aftermath of China blocking India's bid for NSG?




NSG membership requires consensus of all members...even a single member opposing means no membership....

Can you please highlight what india has planned now??


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## Chinese-Dragon

DesiGuy1403 said:


> People here are passing comments during a test match only when one innings is over.
> 
> There are more innings, so, wait & watch.



And in every inning, China still has veto power. 

Which means we can always shut it down, for any reason. Hell, we don't even need to give a reason.

One day India will finally come to their senses and give a decent offering instead of trying to play tricks.

They spent so much political capital and hard cash just to fail here. When they could have just negotiated with China to begin with, but that would be too logical.

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## Kaniska

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> *The BJP government's misadventure to pit Beijing against New Delhi on a global forum will incur a huge cost.
> *
> *POLITICS*
> *| 5-minute read | 25-06-2016*
> *
> 
> *
> *ASHOK SWAIN*
> *http://www.dailyo.in/user/11846/ashoswai*
> The Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) annual plenary session in Seoul ended on June 24 even without a discussion on India's membership application. Whatever the official spin, this outcome was not unexpected.
> 
> No one questions India's eligibility to be a member of this exclusive club, however the diplomatic blitzkrieg approach Narendra Modi and his foreign policy "team" took to achieve it raises serious doubts about their basic understanding of the realpolitik in the post-2008 world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This 'event management' style of foreign policy has become too costly for India.
> By not becoming a member of NSG, which was formed mainly in response to India's first nuclear test in 1974, India has not lost much per se.
> 
> Most of membership benefits have been already accrued due to the grant of an exemption by this export-control cartel, which was negotiated diligently by the UPA government in 2008.
> 
> Only tangible benefit India can get by being a member of the NSG is that it can prevent Pakistan from being a member in future.
> 
> Also read - Foolish to even think China will support India's NSG bid
> 
> Thus it is obvious to ask why Modi raised the stakes on pushing the agenda. Undoubtedly, it would have given him and his supporters the possibility to drumbeat the hype of his stature as a "global leader".
> 
> However, this "event management" style of foreign policy without a comprehensive global power analysis has become too costly for India.
> 
> Foreign policy success since the AB Vajpayee regime to de-hyphenate India from Pakistan in the global arena has taken a serious beating with Modi's misadventures.
> 
> Upon failing to get NSG membership, Modi administration tries to spin that it had managed to isolate China in Seoul and successfully created a near consensus in the favour of its application. This is merely a lie.
> 
> Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.
> 
> Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.
> 
> Since 2008, India had managed to secure itself from being censured on the NPT issue, but Modi has exposed India yet again.
> 
> The list of losses for the thoughtless hoopla over NSG membership is a long one. It has enhanced Pakistan to be hyphenated with India and has also exposed the country to global pressure over signing the NPT.
> 
> The immense negative blow of this senseless jingoism in Modi's foreign policy is that it has helped China to shed its inhibition in openly coming out against India in global fora.
> 
> Some Modi supporters are trying hard to paint it as a success as India is finally playing power politics at the big table.
> 
> Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal. China, in spite of its huge economic strength and massive domination in both conventional and nuclear military hardware, was reluctant to even enter into any confrontation with the global power system until the 2008 global financial crisis.
> 
> But Modi, ever in a hurry to prove himself, does not want to wait for the right moment.
> 
> In open confrontation with China, India has most to lose. We have a ballooning trade deficit vis-à-vis China.
> 
> In the last year, deficit figure has reached close to 50 billion dollars in China's favour. Moreover, while China exports telecommunications equipment, computer hardware, industrial machinery and other manufactured goods, India sends back mostly raw materials such as cotton yarn, gems and other precious metals like copper and iron ore.
> 
> The character of exported goods exposes the state of industrial development of exporting countries. On industrial and economic development fronts, India lags at least two decades behind China, if not more.
> 
> In economic terms, India needs China more than China needs India. While China is extremely adept in dealing with emotive issues, not affecting its bilateral commercial ties, India does not have much experience in managing this contradiction.
> 
> After open confrontation over the NSG membership, the hawkish views on China within Sangh Parivar could very likely gain traction and that might affect bilateral trade relations.
> 
> China not only has the upper hand over the bilateral trade, but also upstream control over a large portion of India's river water, originating from the Himalayas.
> 
> While India has been traditionally playing the powerful role of an upstream riparian vis-à-vis Bangladesh with respect to the Brahmaputra river, that honour has now gone to China after its decision to build five major dams on the river.
> 
> Also read - Politics behind India's bid for NSG
> 
> China has also built dams on the upper reaches of the Indus and Sutlej rivers. India is now to a large extent dependent on China for the execution of its grand river-linking plan to meet the growing water scarcity in the country.
> 
> China's influence is immense on most of India's neighbours. One doesn't need to elaborate China's control over its "iron brother" Pakistan and "ideological brother" Myanmar.
> 
> For many years now, China has also cultivated its strategic assets in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives.
> 
> Even in Nepal, China is playing the role of a kingmaker. To counter China in the neighbourhood, India possesses a single Dalai Lama card, and that is fast losing its importance in front of China's increasing global power and influence.
> 
> It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China.
> 
> While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.
> 
> The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.
> 
> The latter's nuisance value is immense over India's goals of achieving economic development, food security as well as internal stability and regional cooperation.
> 
> Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council.
> 
> http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html
> 
> Not trying to influence your opinion but i believe China should never submit to psychological warfare being played by India...Indians are shamelessly trying to make China appear bad cop despite knowing others opposed their bid too. This shows a very rude and unethical on part of India. It requires tremendous confidence (shame u should read) to do such thing. I believe that China should keep pressure on India time by time. It is very necessary to put them in check. They have opposed CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor) , singed Logistics agreement with US, involved in encouraging China and Pakistan separatist factions, blocking of Nepal and what not. If allowed go uncheck, they'll wreck havoc in this region. They need some nice and humble attitude and only Pakistan and China can provide them that. They need some really serious taming because they are riding too high, crossing their limits and looking down upon us.
> On the other hand, We Pakistanis are going very well along with you. Will Love to see more close cooperation with you guys in future in every arena of the world.
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon @rott @grey boy 2 @GS Zhou @AndrewJin @Beast @Dungeness @beijingwalker @oprih @cirr @+4vsgorillas-Apebane @Tiqiu




I do not think so...Rather It was obvious that China will stand by Pakistan..China and India relationship is just like more transactional relationship...So without getting anything in return, China will not accommodate India's interest..Rather it is not crystal clear than China and its priority is clearly visible for India which will propel and force India to be inclined more towards US...So ultimate beneficiary of this process is the USA...

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## bolo

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Not trying to influence your opinion but i believe China should never submit to psychological warfare being played by India...Indians are shamelessly trying to make China appear bad cop despite knowing others opposed their bid too. This shows a very rude and unethical on part of India. It requires tremendous confidence (shame u should read) to do such thing. I believe that China should keep pressure on India time by time. It is very necessary to put them in check. They have opposed CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor) , singed Logistics agreement with US, involved in encouraging China and Pakistan separatist factions, blocking of Nepal and what not. If allowed go uncheck, they'll wreck havoc in this region. They need some nice and humble attitude and only Pakistan and China can provide them that. They need some really serious taming because they are riding too high, crossing their limits and looking down upon us.
> On the other hand, We Pakistanis are going very well along with you. Will Love to see more close cooperation with you guys in future in every arena of the world.



Sir, my humble thought is this:

I know China already know how India think in regards to foreign affairs. China will not yield or give in to India interest that will harm China or Pakistan. That is the right way to engage in world affairs. India can make China look like the bad cop but it does not matter to China. In the end this incident will have been forgotten and India will not be part of NSG.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> And in every inning, China still has veto power.
> 
> Which means we can always shut it down, for any reason. Hell, we don't even need to give a reason.
> 
> One day India will finally come to their senses and give a decent offering instead of trying to play tricks.
> 
> They spent so much political capital and hard cash just to fail here. When they could have just negotiated with China to begin with, but that would be too logical.


Yes, very true my friend. I forgot China had veto power.

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## imran169

*For Indians...Who were jumping up and down on every thread that 47 out of 48 countries have supported India's application...it was only EVIL China...! 
-------
Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.

Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.*

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## DesiGuy1403

Chinese-Dragon said:


> And in every inning, China still has veto power.
> 
> Which means we can always shut it down, for any reason. Hell, we don't even need to give a reason.
> 
> One day India will finally come to their senses and give a decent offering instead of trying to play tricks.
> 
> They spent so much political capital and hard cash just to fail here. When they could have just negotiated with China to begin with, but that would be too logical.



Decent offering to Chinese?
Don't worry, we will sure make a great offering to Chinese

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## SamantK

forcetrip said:


> Hypocrisy? That word literally translates to say one thing and do another. Lets see. China told India that it will let it join the NSG and then when it came time at the table voted against it. No, that did not happen. In the other instance. One of the major rules of all countries currently participating in the NSG is being a signatory of the NPT. The US being one of the main proposers of that rule. Today it was the one looking the other way of that said rule. That my kind sir is what Hypocrisy means. Now if someone was smart and see what the US did here it would be all but obvious. In the past when the US needed something to happen it would change the rules first and then it would be all legal. Pushing India to hit the rule wall was just more fuel to the conspiracy theorist.



What I mean by Hypocrisy is in one place it takes the high ground by brandishing the rule book, but when it comes to SCS they disregard the rule book completely, that's called Hypocrisy. Its not just SCS, China like Pakistan is also a nuclear proliferate state which directly helped Pakistan and NK. What more they were ready for India and Pakistan both to enter without NPT too  

These rules were put in place by US and other countries which were more than willing to bend them for India which is one of biggest emerging counties in economy and democracy. So what is China's problem with bending them? Its not hypocrisy on US part, its about the ground reality. India has to be accommodated, its not a small timid country which has no impact on the world, just like China was accommodated before. 

Those who are saying there were more than one country against India are incorrect. Only China along with Turkey were adamant to the discussion of Indian case, others raised procedural concern and not about the NPT clause.


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## Jzaib

Nilgiri said:


> That reply did not concern Pakistan one little bit. How much does Pakistan trade with China (its all weather friend) compared to India do you know?


May be some of us dnt measure everything in term of dollars .


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## Nilgiri

Jzaib said:


> May be some of us dnt measure everything in term of dollars .



Well he brought in Pakistan for no reason when I was talking about India - China trade and what actions can be taken....so I was wondering if he even knew.


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## Jzaib

Nilgiri said:


> Well he brought in Pakistan for no reason when I was talking about India - China trade and what actions can be taken....so I was wondering if he even knew.


Fair enough . People need to clam down about this issue . It is success of India how they emerge on global arena . 
I personally wish them all the success and hope it turns out to be better for all Indian people

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## Jzaib

SamantK said:


> What I mean by Hypocrisy is in one place it takes the high ground by brandishing the rule book, but when it comes to SCS they disregard the rule book completely, that's called Hypocrisy. Its not just SCS, China like Pakistan is also a nuclear proliferate state which directly helped Pakistan and NK. What more they were ready for India and Pakistan both to enter without NPT too [emoji38]
> 
> These rules were put in place by US and other countries which were more than willing to bend them for India which is one of biggest emerging counties in economy and democracy. So what is China's problem with bending them? Its not hypocrisy on US part, its about the ground reality. India has to be accommodated, its not a small timid country which has no impact on the world, just like China was accommodated before.
> 
> Those who are saying there were more than one country against India are incorrect. Only China along with Turkey were adamant to the discussion of Indian case, others raised procedural concern and not about the NPT clause.


Proliferation should be a big deal . Either one should make bombs or not that should be the concern . Having bombs should be the problem, not If u make it ur self or got it from somewhere.


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## Chinese-Dragon

DesiGuy1403 said:


> Decent offering to Chinese?
> Don't worry, we will sure make a great offering to Chinese



If you mean you want to "retaliate", then that will only harden China's position. Of course.

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## MilSpec

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If you mean you want to "retaliate", then that will only harden China's position. Of course.


you seem to be quite disturbed on the NSG issue.

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## danger007

MilSpec said:


> you seem to be quite disturbed on the NSG issue.




I guess so.. he became hyper since 2days.. along with PaklovesTurkiye

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## Nilgiri

This is like the 100th thread opened on the topic. No joke. Plus its the same crew saying the exact same things.

@waz @WAJsal @Oscar

Maybe an NSG subforum should be created at this rate?

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## MilSpec

@Chinese-Dragon dude, just chill. We are not getting into NSG, you can sleep easy.


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## Chinese-Dragon

MilSpec said:


> you seem to be quite disturbed on the NSG issue.





danger007 said:


> I guess so.. he became hyper since 2days.. along with PaklovesTurkiye



I admit that I got a bit annoyed by basically every Indian member over the past week constantly boasting about how "China can't do anything to stop India's NSG bid!" and "47 out of 48 countries support India!" and "China backed down so easily!"

Hell even the Indian media kept reporting that "47 out of 48 countries supported India" (which is course is 100% wrong).

Do these guys not understand the concept of a "veto"?

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## MilSpec

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I admit that I got a bit annoyed by basically every Indian member over the past week constantly boasting about how "China can't do anything to stop India's NSG bid!" and "47 out of 48 countries support India!" and "China backed down so easily!"
> 
> Hell even the Indian media kept reporting that "47 out of 48 countries supported India" (which is course is 100% wrong).



Great victory for China! Congrats...and I do commend the NPT stand that China took especially after this.... 

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...like-pakistan-north-korea-build-nuclear-bombs

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/

http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/pakistan/nuclear/

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## Chinese-Dragon

MilSpec said:


> Great victory for China! Congrats...



LOL that's the whole point, it wasn't China's "victory" at all. It was irrelevant. India has NSG waiver anyway so it didn't mean anything.

We said we won't discuss India's entry, we have veto, end of story.

Yet the entire past week was nothing but Indian members claiming that they had "already isolated China" and "47 out of 48 countries supported India" and "China doesn't have the guts to veto when America is supporting India!"

No, sorry. A veto is a veto.

I have no problem with India getting in, as long as they give us something that can further our national interests. Not this hysteria, trying to "guilt" us into letting them in for free, even though we were never friends to begin with. They paid out of their nose for American support and the US didn't even deliver for them, they could have negotiated with China as well and saved themself this drama.

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## MilSpec

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL that's the whole point, it wasn't China's "victory" at all. It was irrelevant. India has NSG waiver anyway so it didn't mean anything.
> 
> We said we won't discuss India's entry, we have veto, end of story.
> 
> Yet the entire past week was nothing but Indian members claiming that they had "already isolated China" and "47 out of 48 countries supported India" and "China doesn't have the guts to veto when America is supporting India!"
> 
> No, sorry. A veto is a veto.


as I said great job for China.... 
You have vetoed India, from entering NSG.... It is unfortunate that Indians for some reason thought there would be some reasonable response from China, it's good lesson for Indians.

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## Chinese-Dragon

MilSpec said:


> Great victory for China! Congrats...and I do commend the NPT stand that China took especially after this....
> 
> http://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...like-pakistan-north-korea-build-nuclear-bombs



The first line of that article is: "A new book alleges..."



And somehow we are still one of the only 5 internationally recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, who are also the UNSC P5.

While only a few countries in the world are still locked out of the NPT, namely India/North Korea/Pakistan/South Sudan.

If you want in, come and ask. But this ridiculous hysteria isn't achieving anything for you, except forcing China to harden its position.

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The first line of that article is: "A new book alleges..."
> 
> 
> 
> And somehow we are still one of the only 5 internationally recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, who are also the UNSC P5.
> 
> While only a few countries in the world are still locked out of the NPT, namely India/North Korea/Pakistan/South Sudan.
> 
> If you want in, come and ask. But this ridiculous hysteria isn't achieving anything for you, except forcing China to harden its position.



Will you admit you have looked quite silly if China relents later this year? Just wondering what your reaction will be?


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## MilSpec

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The first line of that article is: "A new book alleges..."
> 
> 
> 
> And somehow we are still one of the only 5 internationally recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, who are also the UNSC P5.
> 
> While only a few countries in the world are still locked out of the NPT, namely India/North Korea/Pakistan/South Sudan.
> 
> If you want in, come and ask. But this ridiculous hysteria isn't achieving anything for you, except forcing China to harden its position.


hehe, 
looks like the tyrannical mindset has gone to your ego now, but then I don't blame you, I do sympathize.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Nilgiri said:


> Will you admit you have looked quite silly if China relents later this year? Just wondering what your reaction will be?



That won't happen because I never said China will veto India forever. 

Hell, nobody even cares if India gets in the NSG or not, they already have the waiver. It's irrelevant.

But India sold their sovereignty to America in return for the NSG seat (which America could not deliver), we simply want similar payment. The nuclear reactor deals and industrial park deals that Modi offered are a good start, but clearly weren't good enough.

We aren't friends, so no free favors. You guys can pay like everyone else.

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## Max

MilSpec said:


> Great victory for China! Congrats...and I do commend the NPT stand that China took especially after this....
> 
> http://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...like-pakistan-north-korea-build-nuclear-bombs
> 
> http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/
> 
> http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/pakistan/nuclear/



you have worst record then north korea.. NSG was formed bcoz of ur dirty games.. You are training north korean scientists in india.. You term your every weapon as china killer and Pakistan killer...

www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/06/india-embarrassing-north-korean-connection-160620195559208.html

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## nadeemkhan110

*India was actually begging please Let me in well begging is not a criteria.*
*NSG was created in a reaction of INDIAN nuclear program.*

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## Nilgiri

MilSpec said:


> hehe,
> looks like the tyrannical mindset has gone to your ego now, but then I don't blame you, I do sympathize.



What can one do. He is obviously frustrated how small countries like Vietnam and Philippines continue to stick it to the "Middle Kingdom" with the whole world watching in amusement as China does nothing after years and years of anticipation of their defence crazies.

So has to chest thump whenever the occasion presents itself to feel better


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## Chinese-Dragon

Nilgiri said:


> What can one do. He is obviously frustrated how small countries like Vietnam and Philippines continue to stick it to the "Middle Kingdom" with the whole world watching in amusement as China does nothing after years and years of anticipation of their defence crazies.
> 
> So has to chest thump whenever the occasion presents itself to feel better



LOL it's funny you mentioned the Philippines and Vietnam, because we seized the Scarborough shoal from the Philippines in 2012 (and America abandoned their mutual defence treaty instead of helping their treaty ally)... and the Paracel islands from Vietnam.

If losing large chunks of territory to China is called "sticking it to the Middle Kingdom", then India qualifies too, since they lost an even bigger chunk of territory (Aksai Chin) to China.

By that definition, the Ukraine is a big winner too.

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## Alpha BeeTee

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL that's the whole point, it wasn't China's "victory" at all. It was irrelevant. India has NSG waiver anyway so it didn't mean anything.
> 
> We said we won't discuss India's entry, we have veto, end of story.
> 
> Yet the entire past week was nothing but Indian members claiming that they had "already isolated China" and "47 out of 48 countries supported India" and "China doesn't have the guts to veto when America is supporting India!"
> 
> No, sorry. A veto is a veto.
> 
> I have no problem with India getting in, as long as they give us something that can further our national interests. Not this hysteria, trying to "guilt" us into letting them in for free, even though we were never friends to begin with. They paid out of their nose for American support and the US didn't even deliver for them, they could have negotiated with China as well and saved themself this drama.



Wait a minute dragon,today u're saying we let India in if it offers something reasonable..
Tomorrow u'll be the bad guy again when u'll try to block Ind's entry into the UNSC.
So I think,a hostile country like India with boneheads in the foreign office and with a nation celebrating a stupidly agressive prime minister,doesn't even deserve a place in the NSG.India is still not mature enough to handle power and authority with responsibility.
For China,everything can't be bussiness oriented.Letting India enter the NSG if they offer lucrative stuff gives it a chance to eye a seat in the UNSC which will have strategic implications for China and needless to say,Pakistan.

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That won't happen because I never said China will veto India forever.
> 
> Hell, nobody even cares if India gets in the NSG or not, they already have the waiver. It's irrelevant.
> 
> But India sold their sovereignty to America in return for the NSG seat (which America could not deliver), we simply want similar payment. The nuclear reactor deals and industrial park deals that Modi offered are a good start, but clearly weren't good enough.
> 
> We aren't friends, so no free favors. You guys can pay like everyone else.



The waiver and NSG membership are not exactly equivalent (I have posted on this somewhere in one of the million other threads about this topic).

Rest of your point is fair enough said. Lets see what happens.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Alpha BeeTee said:


> Wait a minute dragon,today u're saying we let India in if it offers something reasonable..
> Tomorrow u'll be the bad guy again when u'll try to block Ind's entry into the UNSC.
> So I think,a hostile country like India with boneheads in the foreign office and with a nation celebrating a stupidly agressive prime minister,doesn't even deserve a place in the NSG.India is still not mature enough to handle power and authority with responsibility.
> For China,everything can't be bussiness oriented.Letting India enter the NSG if they offer lucrative stuff gives it a chance to eye a seat in the UNSC which will have strategic implications for China and needless to say,Pakistan.



Honestly, I don't really care if India uses their power responsibly or not. That has nothing to do with me.

What matters the most for me (in geopolitics) is China's national interests.

Modi can be aggressive as he wants, I could always do with a good laugh. If he wants to smash his fellow Indians again, that's their own business. I won't shed crocodile tears over it, my duty is to my fellow Chinese citizens, not to Indians.

If one Chinese citizen gets an improvement in their living standards, that matters a thousand times more to me than anything Modi will ever do.

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL it's funny you mentioned the Philippines and Vietnam, because we seized the Scarborough shoal from the Philippines in 2012 (and America abandoned their mutual defence treaty instead of helping their treaty ally)... and the Paracel islands from Vietnam.
> 
> If losing large chunks of territory to China is called "sticking it to the Middle Kingdom", then India qualifies too, since they lost an even bigger chunk of territory (Aksai Chin) to China.
> 
> By that definition, the Ukraine is a big winner too.



South Tibet is way bigger than Aksai Chin....who claims it (and cant do anything about it) and who controls it? Even when your best friend was getting ripped apart in 1971, you just sat there on the other side even when Nixon goaded and begged you to intervene. Couldn't even take just your claim back in 1971 when Indian army was occupied elsewhere...probably because you remembered what happened in Sikkim to your PLA adventure in 1967.

The difference from 1962 to 1967 and 1971 is simply going to be repeated now with NSG 2016....like you said its a matter of time....and no we are not going to permanently offer the Chinese much at all. We can sign some airy-fairy MOUs that we will scrap later but thats about it.....but just watch China relent anyway....with barely anything in return. We should all just sit back and watch the fun unfurl....it has just started.

Anyways, one shoal from the Philippines and attacking the South Vietnamese when they were facing their biggest crisis ever...by the all-powerful China.....pretty pathetic. I would expect from the talks of you lot that you would take all the "occupied" SCS islands back by force in just a few days or weeks.....yet you continue to hmmm and hawwww with each passing year and shake your fists at B-52s flying overhead and foreign destroyers sailing right inside your claimed territorial waters.

Vietnam and PH come off each year as big winners in this whole SCS thing the longer China continues the status-quo because its simply afraid. Its fun to needle you guys about it....year after year....because you do nothing year after year other than complain and protest. Oh and you took a shoal back....good job....one shoal every decade is the target for China now? Thats not a paper tiger?

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## Alpha BeeTee

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Honestly, I don't really care if India uses their power responsibly or not. That has nothing to do with me.
> 
> What matters the most for me (in geopolitics) is China's national interests.
> 
> Modi can be aggressive as he wants, I could always do with a good laugh. If he wants to smash his fellow Indians again, that's their own business. I won't shed crocodile tears over it, my duty is to my fellow Chinese citizens, not to Indians.
> 
> If one Chinese citizen gets an improvement in their living standards, that matters a thousand times more to me than anything Modi will ever do.


Whatever will happen to your national interest if Modi gets a veto power ?


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## imran169

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The first line of that article is: "A new book alleges..."
> 
> 
> 
> And somehow we are still one of the only 5 internationally recognized nuclear powers by the NPT and the UN, who are also the UNSC P5.
> 
> While only a few countries in the world are still locked out of the NPT, namely India/North Korea/Pakistan/South Sudan.
> 
> If you want in, come and ask. But this ridiculous hysteria isn't achieving anything for you, except forcing China to harden its position.


They would even eat their shit* to prove that China makes Pakistan Nuclear Power just to counter India...And the whole world watched and did nothing! And this they can prove from A BOOK written by any *Tom, Dick and Harry...!*

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## Chinese-Dragon

Alpha BeeTee said:


> Whatever will happen to your national interest if Modi gets a veto power ?



In the NSG? Nothing.  They already have the waiver, who cares.

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## war&peace

imran169 said:


> *For Indians...Who were jumping up and down on every thread that 47 out of 48 countries have supported India's application...it was only EVIL China...!
> -------
> Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.
> 
> Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.*


After China, Switzerland is the most hard nut to crack for any country...It is not part of any economic agreement i.e. EU, Eurozone...it is the most independent country in the world. They will let Indians take selfies with them and they will even smile for a few snap but they won't support anyone until they are 100% convinced that's the right thing to do and even Uncle Sam cannot do anything against them .

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## I M Sikander

MilSpec said:


> @Chinese-Dragon dude, just chill. We are not getting into NSG, you can sleep easy.



Its not just chine its the rest of 16 countries out of 48 who opposed Indians application for nsg membership.

Modi needs to look beyond just Pyar ki Jhappi diplomacy. 
China playing its cards very well and ruthlessly.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Nilgiri said:


> We can sign some airy-fairy MOUs that we will scrap later but thats about it.....but just watch China relent anyway....with barely anything in return.



Deja vu. 

From a few days ago:



Nilgiri said:


> So why wasnt China the lone-dissenting voice for the NSG waiver in 2008 and stop it mightily and independently in its tracks from proceeding to completion?
> 
> Was Hu-JinTao really that much of a weakling?



Like I said, who cares if India gets NSG membership or not, they already have the waiver anyway, so it's irrelevant. 

If India wants it, they can pay up like they did to America. Or they won't. Irrelevant either way.

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## grey boy 2

Good read, thanks the op for sharing
An strict forward no nonsense "Death certificate" for the Indians NSG bid failure

(1) Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal.

(2) It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China
While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.

(3)The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.

While Indians calling for China's head will continued as expected.......
*"Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council." *

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Deja vu.
> 
> From a few days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, who cares if India gets NSG membership or not, they already have the waiver anyway, so it's irrelevant.
> 
> If India wants it they can pay up like they did to America, or not. Irrelevant either way.



OK let me change my question to....what will your reaction be if China relents and lets India in without anything concrete in return (just like the NSG waiver) prima facie? Or will you justify it then as something was agreed to behind the doors?


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## Chinese-Dragon

Nilgiri said:


> OK let me change my question to....what will your reaction be if China relents and lets India in without anything concrete in return (just like the NSG waiver) prima facie? Or will you justify it then as something was agreed to behind the doors?



Like I said, I don't care. 

Pay up, or not. Both outcomes are basically irrelevant to me.

I don't like to predict the future because the future always changes (like India still joining our SCO project even after the veto). Something Indian members need to learn.

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## kasper95

Ranasikander said:


> Its not just chine its the rest of 16 countries out of 48 who opposed Indians application for nsg membership.
> 
> Modi needs to look beyond just Pyar ki Jhappi diplomacy.
> China playing its cards very well and ruthlessly.


if 16 countries where opposing India ,China would not have come in the open and opposed Indian membership. the reason it had to come in the open and it because others where OK with Indian membership. this was the first time china was made to show its cards and come in the open opposing India. in fact US played well. if US wanted it,they would have convinced Chinese like in 2008.
they just wanted China to stand alone opposing India,now they have India and China on the opposite sides of the table than both countries sitting together on the same side facing US. that's what is called diplomacy .US is way ahead of it than China or India .

don't get carried away. if China had support they would have stayed low and used the other country to block Indian membership, as one no vote was enough.

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## Blue Marlin

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Like I said, I don't care.
> 
> Pay up, or not. Both outcomes are basically irrelevant to me.
> 
> I don't like to predict the future because the future always changes (like India still joining our SCO project even after the veto). Something Indian members need to learn.


money talks. mou's are worthless untill theres money switching hands and the contract is in force. china will contain india and pakistan will continue to harass them. india tried to make ties in the middel east with pro pakistani countries but it wore of quiet quickly tbh. india need to give china huge incentives to make them change their minds or atleast make them being softer. but at the same time not to anoy their little bro pakistan.
now the chinese dont care they will stop indias nsg application unless pakistan gets a membership too both on the same equal terms.
the chinese have nothing to lose.at the end of the day they are keeping pakistan happy and are selling reactors to them with no problem. and are preventing india from joining at the same time. they can call it what they want. revenge for siding with the usa/japan or their border disputes. as the chinese say its a win win.

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## MilSpec

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Like I said, who cares if India gets NSG membership or not, .



Apparently you do, quite evident from all the huffing and puffing on these threads... :0

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## Chinese-Dragon

MilSpec said:


> Apparently you do, quite evident from all the huffing and puffing on these threads... :0



I don't care at all. They already have the waiver so what is the difference? 

I do think the amount of arrogance on display is hilarious though. They need to learn not to count their chickens before they have hatched.

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## Dungeness

MilSpec said:


> *Great victory for China! Congrats*...and I do commend the NPT stand that China took especially after this....
> 
> http://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...like-pakistan-north-korea-build-nuclear-bombs
> 
> http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/
> 
> http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/pakistan/nuclear/



I don't think China take this as a victory at all. It was just the matter of principle. China simply did not see the reason and merit to bend the rules for India only. What India is expecting was an exception to the rules, from which China doesn't benefit, besides China was considered an enemy to be nuked by your countrymen. 

Why would Indians even be surprised and hurt? It maybe due to India's own peculiar sense of entitlement?

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## kasper95

Dungeness said:


> I don't think China take this as a victory at all. It was just the matter of principle. China simply did not see the reason and merit to bend the rules for India only. What India is expecting was an exception to the rules, from which China doesn't benefit, besides China was considered enemy by your countrymen. Why would Indians even be surprised and hurt?


some Indians might be surprised but India knew what was to come ,that's why minister had stated long before the NSG meet,that India is hopeful to join NSG by december. 
about enmity ,you too would consider us enemies is we has supplied nuclear and missile tech to Vietnam for decades.


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## Dungeness

kasper95 said:


> some Indians might be surprised but India knew what was to come ,that's why minister had stated long before the NSG meet,that India is hopeful to join NSG by december.
> about enmity ,*you too would consider us enemies is we has supplied nuclear and missile tech to Vietnam for decades.*




It could very well be. There is not what-if, the rest is history. At this time, most of us do not consider India as an enemy. Before I started reading PDF, I did not even know there are so much Indian hostility to China.

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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> Move on with your current status and we are implementing project for our future and India can't do that and that is well know fact. This is US version of assessments but it will be eye opener for you and then compare it with what India can offer to China and it will be not even peanut.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/hudson-institute-pakistan-the-pivot-of-the-world-once-again.436453/



I already know what the CPEC is and have discussed it many times in various threads. You can look up my post history w.r.t CPEC search term and talk about it in those threads. That subject is off-topic in this thread.

I am strictly talking in reference to India - China trade and relations w.r.t NSG. Pakistan play no role in this whatsoever....it is not an NSG member neither is it a significant trade partner of China currently. Future projects of CPEC taking off is like me saying India is going to be a 10 trillion USD Nominal GDP in 10 years (there are articles about this just like the wonderful "everything goes right" CPEC projection articles for Pakistan). It bears no relevance to the issue at hand here w.r.t NSG which is in the here and now or at most the very short term (1 - 2 years). I mean FDI to Pakistan has actually declined severely from 2014 to 2015,

http://unctad.org/en/Pages/DIAE/World Investment Report/Country-Fact-Sheets.aspx







Let us not make this topic a discussion about Pakistan economy....because all the positive parts of it rely on the CPEC future. A total amount (over many years and based almost entirely on loans rather than direct investment) of which is roughly equivalent to one year of FDI into India currently...or one year of India's trade deficit with China.

You really don't want to compare India and Pakistan's economic importance to China or worldwide....the numbers just dont stack up in your favour at all...whether it be demand or supply of investment such as China wants from India compared to anything that Pakistan can offer:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms

(Just one example, I really dont want to post more and derail further)

Keep the discussion NSG-specific please.


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## shah1398

If I was an Indian I would term this guy damn scary. People out there might counter many of his arguments except this one.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> But Modi, ever in a hurry to prove himself, does not want to *wait for the right moment*.
> 
> *In open confrontation with China, India has most to lose*.

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## AndrewJin

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> *The BJP government's misadventure to pit Beijing against New Delhi on a global forum will incur a huge cost.
> *
> *POLITICS*
> *| 5-minute read | 25-06-2016*
> *
> 
> *
> *ASHOK SWAIN*
> *http://www.dailyo.in/user/11846/ashoswai*
> The Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) annual plenary session in Seoul ended on June 24 even without a discussion on India's membership application. Whatever the official spin, this outcome was not unexpected.
> 
> No one questions India's eligibility to be a member of this exclusive club, however the diplomatic blitzkrieg approach Narendra Modi and his foreign policy "team" took to achieve it raises serious doubts about their basic understanding of the realpolitik in the post-2008 world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This 'event management' style of foreign policy has become too costly for India.
> By not becoming a member of NSG, which was formed mainly in response to India's first nuclear test in 1974, India has not lost much per se.
> 
> Most of membership benefits have been already accrued due to the grant of an exemption by this export-control cartel, which was negotiated diligently by the UPA government in 2008.
> 
> Only tangible benefit India can get by being a member of the NSG is that it can prevent Pakistan from being a member in future.
> 
> Also read - Foolish to even think China will support India's NSG bid
> 
> Thus it is obvious to ask why Modi raised the stakes on pushing the agenda. Undoubtedly, it would have given him and his supporters the possibility to drumbeat the hype of his stature as a "global leader".
> 
> However, this "event management" style of foreign policy without a comprehensive global power analysis has become too costly for India.
> 
> Foreign policy success since the AB Vajpayee regime to de-hyphenate India from Pakistan in the global arena has taken a serious beating with Modi's misadventures.
> 
> Upon failing to get NSG membership, Modi administration tries to spin that it had managed to isolate China in Seoul and successfully created a near consensus in the favour of its application. This is merely a lie.
> 
> Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.
> 
> Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.
> 
> Since 2008, India had managed to secure itself from being censured on the NPT issue, but Modi has exposed India yet again.
> 
> The list of losses for the thoughtless hoopla over NSG membership is a long one. It has enhanced Pakistan to be hyphenated with India and has also exposed the country to global pressure over signing the NPT.
> 
> The immense negative blow of this senseless jingoism in Modi's foreign policy is that it has helped China to shed its inhibition in openly coming out against India in global fora.
> 
> Some Modi supporters are trying hard to paint it as a success as India is finally playing power politics at the big table.
> 
> Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal. China, in spite of its huge economic strength and massive domination in both conventional and nuclear military hardware, was reluctant to even enter into any confrontation with the global power system until the 2008 global financial crisis.
> 
> But Modi, ever in a hurry to prove himself, does not want to wait for the right moment.
> 
> In open confrontation with China, India has most to lose. We have a ballooning trade deficit vis-à-vis China.
> 
> In the last year, deficit figure has reached close to 50 billion dollars in China's favour. Moreover, while China exports telecommunications equipment, computer hardware, industrial machinery and other manufactured goods, India sends back mostly raw materials such as cotton yarn, gems and other precious metals like copper and iron ore.
> 
> The character of exported goods exposes the state of industrial development of exporting countries. On industrial and economic development fronts, India lags at least two decades behind China, if not more.
> 
> In economic terms, India needs China more than China needs India. While China is extremely adept in dealing with emotive issues, not affecting its bilateral commercial ties, India does not have much experience in managing this contradiction.
> 
> After open confrontation over the NSG membership, the hawkish views on China within Sangh Parivar could very likely gain traction and that might affect bilateral trade relations.
> 
> China not only has the upper hand over the bilateral trade, but also upstream control over a large portion of India's river water, originating from the Himalayas.
> 
> While India has been traditionally playing the powerful role of an upstream riparian vis-à-vis Bangladesh with respect to the Brahmaputra river, that honour has now gone to China after its decision to build five major dams on the river.
> 
> Also read - Politics behind India's bid for NSG
> 
> China has also built dams on the upper reaches of the Indus and Sutlej rivers. India is now to a large extent dependent on China for the execution of its grand river-linking plan to meet the growing water scarcity in the country.
> 
> China's influence is immense on most of India's neighbours. One doesn't need to elaborate China's control over its "iron brother" Pakistan and "ideological brother" Myanmar.
> 
> For many years now, China has also cultivated its strategic assets in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives.
> 
> Even in Nepal, China is playing the role of a kingmaker. To counter China in the neighbourhood, India possesses a single Dalai Lama card, and that is fast losing its importance in front of China's increasing global power and influence.
> 
> It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China.
> 
> While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.
> 
> The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.
> 
> The latter's nuisance value is immense over India's goals of achieving economic development, food security as well as internal stability and regional cooperation.
> 
> Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council.
> 
> http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html
> 
> Not trying to influence your opinion but i believe China should never submit to psychological warfare being played by India...Indians are shamelessly trying to make China appear bad cop despite knowing others opposed their bid too. This shows a very rude and unethical on part of India. It requires tremendous confidence (shame u should read) to do such thing. I believe that China should keep pressure on India time by time. It is very necessary to put them in check. They have opposed CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor) , singed Logistics agreement with US, involved in encouraging China and Pakistan separatist factions, blocking of Nepal and what not. If allowed go uncheck, they'll wreck havoc in this region. They need some nice and humble attitude and only Pakistan and China can provide them that. They need some really serious taming because they are riding too high, crossing their limits and looking down upon us.
> On the other hand, We Pakistanis are going very well along with you. Will Love to see more close cooperation with you guys in future in every arena of the world.
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon @rott @grey boy 2 @GS Zhou @AndrewJin @Beast @Dungeness @beijingwalker @oprih @cirr @+4vsgorillas-Apebane @Tiqiu


Very sharp analysis.
But most of them know zero about geopolitics.
Good news for all its neighbours.

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## DesiGuy1403

AndrewJin said:


> Very sharp analysis.
> But most of them know zero about geopolitics.
> Good news for all its neighbours.



We call them prestitutes.
These guys are out and out commies, more rabid in their approach than you politburo.

That they are against India and current dispensation does not come as surprise most of Indians.

That you think that crap is sharp is not surprising either.


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## AndrewJin

DesiGuy1403 said:


> We call them prestitutes.
> These guys are out and out commies, more rabid in their approach than you politburo.
> 
> That they are against India and current dispensation does not come as surprise most of Indians.
> 
> That you think that crap is sharp is not surprising either.


Naive.

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## grey boy 2

AndrewJin said:


> Naive.



Ignore the obvious frustrated little man "TRUTH HURT"

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## My-Analogous

Nilgiri said:


> I already know what the CPEC is and have discussed it many times in various threads. You can look up my post history w.r.t CPEC search term and talk about it in those threads. That subject is off-topic in this thread.
> 
> I am strictly talking in reference to India - China trade and relations w.r.t NSG. Pakistan play no role in this whatsoever....it is not an NSG member neither is it a significant trade partner of China currently. Future projects of CPEC taking off is like me saying India is going to be a 10 trillion USD Nominal GDP in 10 years (there are articles about this just like the wonderful "everything goes right" CPEC projection articles for Pakistan). It bears no relevance to the issue at hand here w.r.t NSG which is in the here and now or at most the very short term (1 - 2 years). I mean FDI to Pakistan has actually declined severely from 2014 to 2015,
> 
> http://unctad.org/en/Pages/DIAE/World Investment Report/Country-Fact-Sheets.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let us not make this topic a discussion about Pakistan economy....because all the positive parts of it rely on the CPEC future. A total amount (over many years and based almost entirely on loans rather than direct investment) of which is roughly equivalent to one year of FDI into India currently...or one year of India's trade deficit with China.
> 
> You really don't want to compare India and Pakistan's economic importance to China or worldwide....the numbers just dont stack up in your favour at all...whether it be demand or supply of investment such as China wants from India compared to anything that Pakistan can offer:
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms
> 
> (Just one example, I really dont want to post more and derail further)
> 
> Keep the discussion NSG-specific please.



From next year FDI will increase and now CPEC is move on construction phase from planning phase so your point is irrelevant otherwise tell me where this 46 billion will go?. Also please don't compare apple with oranges or my D is bigger then your D things, that is very old tricks and we are very familiar with it. Thank you



Nilgiri said:


> That reply did not concern Pakistan one little bit. How much does Pakistan trade with China (its all weather friend) compared to India do you know?



Stop this crap and come to real world and listen to these people and i know Indian do have listening problem

https://defence.pk/threads/hudson-institute-pakistan-the-pivot-of-the-world-once-again.436453/

Also check post # 11 of same thread


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## DesiGuy1403

AndrewJin said:


> Naive.



I could ask for independent media from your country.
Alas, I must be "naive" to ask for something like that, am I right?


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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> From next year FDI will increase and now CPEC is move on construction phase from planning phase so your point is irrelevant otherwise tell me where this 46 billion will go?. Also please don't compare apple with oranges or my D is bigger then your D things, that is very old tricks and we are very familiar with it. Thank you



Yeah people said the same thing last year about this year (FDI will increase in Pakistan just wait and watch!). The fact of the matter is China is giving next to 0 FDI through CPEC. Its all loans (not FDI) for the most part. So mostly 46 billion in loans (some of which are already going through). Loans does not equal FDI. Its simply a temporary injection into investment rate that the provider will recuperate over time (with interest). The receiver hopes that there is enough sustainable transfer from this loan in the long run to create more wealth over and above the loan repayment +interest charged. Please read my CPEC posts in the CPEC threads by doing the relevant searches if you want to discuss more about this.

Besides, how am I comparing apples to oranges? A dollar in Pakistan is just as green as a dollar in India. If you cannot make/consume enough compared to us (per person), that is a simple fact....not a D size comparison.

Now let us get back to NSG conversation thanks. If you want to bring up specific geopolitical points w.r.t NSG and India...then by all means bring up those points. India - Pakistani economic comparison is only going to provide one easy but irrelevant result to this thread.


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## My-Analogous

Nilgiri said:


> Yeah people said the same thing last year about this year (FDI will increase in Pakistan just wait and watch!). The fact of the matter is China is giving next to 0 FDI through CPEC. Its all loans (not FDI) for the most part. So mostly 46 billion in loans (some of which are already going through). Loans does not equal FDI. Its simply a temporary injection into investment rate that the provider will recuperate over time (with interest). The receiver hopes that there is enough sustainable transfer from this loan in the long run to create more wealth over and above the loan repayment +interest charged. Please read my CPEC posts in the CPEC threads by doing the relevant searches if you want to discuss more about this.
> 
> Besides, how am I comparing apples to oranges? A dollar in Pakistan is just as green as a dollar in India. If you cannot make/consume enough compared to us (per person), that is a simple fact....not a D size comparison.
> 
> Now let us get back to NSG conversation thanks. If you want to bring up specific geopolitical points w.r.t NSG and India...then by all means bring up those points. India - Pakistani economic comparison is only going to provide one easy but irrelevant result to this thread.


LOL it is you who change the topic and now asking me to back to topic. Anyway for that topic see you after two year as you know economy is not a child play, so you have two years to sing your songs

And for NSG try this as well
https://defence.pk/threads/modis-nsg-blunder-has-put-india-china-ties-in-danger-dailyo-in.436560/


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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> LOL it is you who change the topic and now asking me to back to topic. Anyway for that topic see you after two year as you know economy is not a child play, so you have two years to sing your songs
> 
> And for NSG try this as well
> https://defence.pk/threads/modis-nsg-blunder-has-put-india-china-ties-in-danger-dailyo-in.436560/



The whole thing that started our discussion here was my post here:

https://defence.pk/threads/india-and-nsg-news-updates-and-discussions.209439/page-40#post-8411036

(completely on topic w.r.t India-China relations and what the blowback could be trade wise because of NSG drama).

that you decided to reply to as follows:

https://defence.pk/threads/india-and-nsg-news-updates-and-discussions.209439/page-49#post-8412680

bringing in CPEC and other such things going on between China and Pakistan that have no relevance to the topic at hand (and presented in very poor hard to understand English may I add).

It was you that thus changed the topic with this CPEC dramebaazi....as though that has something to do with the NSG topic.


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## dadeechi

*NSG appoints nuclear envoy to informal panel for India*


 Suhasini Haidar







The Hindu
Rafael Grossi. Photo: Sandeep Saxena


*‘U.S. is confident that India would be a full member of Nuclear Suppliers Group by the end of the year’*
India’s case at the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) may not have been taken forward formally this year but it wasn’t shelved entirely, sources indicated here, saying that a decision had been taken on an “informal consultative process” especially for India’s case.

According to highly placed diplomatic sources, the closed-door session of the NSG that ended its annual plenary in Seoul on Friday appointed Argentine Ambassador Rafael Grossi as the “Facilitaor of the Chairperson to having informal consultations with the Participating Governments (PGs) in the group”.

The decision indicates that despite opposition from China and other countries on the issue of the Non-Proliferation Treaty that India has refused to sign, and the desire of several NSG countries to look for a “non-discrimatory” membership process that includes all non-NPT states, India’s application was acknowledged to have some merit of its own.

Members reportedly agreed to the informal arrangement after a special session where several countries raised India’s case, which went past midnight on Thursday and stretched into the next day’s concluding session.

Eventually the NSG joint statement only recorded a bland account of the session, recording that “The NSG had discussions on the issue of “Technical, Legal and Political Aspects of the Participation of non-NPT States in the NSG” and decided to continue its discussion.”

*Key appointment*

Ambassador Grossi’s appointment to assist the new Chairperson from Switzerland with the “continued discussion” on India is significant, as Mr. Grossi is the outgoing Chairperson of the NSG, and was keenly involved in bringing India’s bid to the NSG table this year.

During a visit to New Delhi in October 2015, he told The Hindu, “Nobody disputes that India is a key, major player in the nuclear scenario, hence there is a recognition that some formula must be found for India [to become a member] and I think it is possible.”

Sources say that not only is the selection of Mr. Grossi to the “facilitating” position a positive sign for India as Argentina has been very supportive of India’s bid, he is an international expert on disarmament, and negotiated the accession of 197 members to the Chemical Warfare Convention (CWC) some years ago.

He was also considered a frontrunner for the post of Director-General of the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) for 2017.

*Path forward*

News of Mr. Grossi’s appointment came even as a U.S. official reportedly said that the NSG session had ended with a “path forward” for India’s acceptance as a member.

Speaking to PTI in Washington the unnamed source identified as “a top Obama administration official said that India’s membership process needed “some work”, but that the U.S. is “confident that India would be a full member of the [NSG] regime by the end of the year.”

MEA officials wouldn’t comment on either developments involving Mr. Grossi’s appointment and the constitution of an informal group on India or the U.S. official’s remarks, saying only that according to the NSG confidentiality procedures there is no “readout of what type of proposals were made inside the room.”


http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...o-informal-panel-for-india/article8773418.ece

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## My-Analogous

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If you mean you want to "retaliate", then that will only harden China's position. Of course.



They only good in negative politics and diplomacy and you want them to be good?. Not in my and your life and they born like that only

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## AndrewJin

grey boy 2 said:


> Ignore the obvious frustrated little man "TRUTH HURT"


Yes, truth hurts.
Real politics is not about begging and selfie taking with other politicians.
It's not about media hysteria and fake delusion but grounded upon interest exchange and concrete strengths.

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## My-Analogous

Nilgiri said:


> The whole thing that started our discussion here was my post here:
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/india-and-nsg-news-updates-and-discussions.209439/page-40#post-8411036
> 
> (completely on topic w.r.t India-China relations and what the blowback could be trade wise because of NSG drama).
> 
> that you decided to reply to as follows:
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/india-and-nsg-news-updates-and-discussions.209439/page-49#post-8412680
> 
> bringing in CPEC and other such things going on between China and Pakistan that have no relevance to the topic at hand (and presented in very poor hard to understand English may I add).
> 
> It was you that thus changed the topic with this CPEC dramebaazi....as though that has something to do with the NSG topic.



Still stick with same topic. Move on and check my link and i know you guys never accept your mistakes. so check my previous link and move on


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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> Still stick with same topic. Move on and check my link and i know you guys never accept your mistakes. so check my previous link and move on



That is for others to decide not you or me . The evidence has been presented....should be easy for anyone to see who started the derailment into CPEC and solely Pak economy matters.


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## My-Analogous

Nilgiri said:


> That is for others to decide not you or me . The evidence has been presented....should be easy for anyone to see who started the derailment into CPEC and solely Pak economy matters.



Again same off topic. Congrats


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## Nilgiri

My-Analogous said:


> Again same off topic. Congrats



If you really want the last word you are welcome to have it. I have said my piece. Now if you actually have anything to talk about the NSG, you should let people hear it. Or keep repeating yourself, thats cool too.


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## neem456

lol article from dailyo.in

that site is for donkeys, it is the most notorious antiindia site


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## My-Analogous

Nilgiri said:


> If you really want the last word you are welcome to have it. I have said my piece. Now if you actually have anything to talk about the NSG, you should let people hear it. Or keep repeating yourself, thats cool too.



Thank you that finally understand what i was trying to tell you and it hurt your ego badly and now check this link

https://defence.pk/threads/modis-nsg-blunder-has-put-india-china-ties-in-danger-dailyo-in.436560/

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## neem456

What does this appointment signifies in laymans terms ?

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## dadeechi

neem456 said:


> What does this appointment signifies in laymans terms ?



It means picture abhi baaki hai

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## Hellfire

neem456 said:


> What does this appointment signifies in laymans terms ?



Means that the Chinese can lump it, next time they will loose serious diplomatic currency as the NSG members really won't bother with it's opposition .

Also means, without being a member we get all benefits

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## grey boy 2

I thought there's a dedicated thread for NSG news and updates?
Anyway all the best to our Indian friends future NSG ride
It reminded me of a little wisdom: "If dreams were horses Beggars would ride" dream on my friends, its FREE

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## CHD

hellfire said:


> Means that the Chinese can lump it, next time they will loose serious diplomatic currency as the NSG members really won't bother with it's opposition .
> 
> Also means, without being a member we get all benefits


what diplomatic currency? china is self sufficient while the rest of the world is depending on them. Even today china is banned from western defence equipments and MTCR and it has been this case for a long time. what else they can do?

Thier is nothing that india can do to that can force china, and china will never strain its relationship with Pakistan for india as china sees india as a Puppet of west while Pakistan as strategic and regional ally.

No matter how many resolutions you table, china will veto you just like two times in UN in last 6 months and now NSG.


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## Hellfire

CHD said:


> what diplomatic currency? china is self sufficient while the rest of the world is depending on them. Even today china is banned from western defence equipments and MTCR and it has been this case for a long time. what else they can do?



Again - diplomatic currency ...! Sit and figure.

We are getting exactly what we would have got from NSG membership already - we get all benefits of same as the waiver which we have. Question arises why NSG bid?

Modi clearly hinted that there shall be consequences of China taking an anti-India stand. By showcasing a 'failed' bid, India indeed has placed itself in a position where in the world sees India as being a country which makes Chinese feel threatened (Chinese perceptions don't matter here) and China is projected as a country hell bent on containing the economic growth of a country based on renewable sources of energy, that too a country which is now fastest growing economy by slight margin and is expected to remain the course. India already has delayed the implementation of Paris Accord in aftermath of NSG failure.

'Rest of the world' depending on them is a reciprocal relationship, it is also them depending on rest of the world. Theirs is an economy of massive manufacturing base, theirs is also an economy which is slowing due to the fact that their production capacity exceeds their requirement of servicing domestic market and as fiscal constraints creep into Europe and Western nations, the demand is slowing.

Please see the comment I have made in perspective of economic, diplomatic and political approach and make an informed comment.

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## Jai Bharat

CHD said:


> what diplomatic currency? china is self sufficient while the rest of the world is depending on them. Even today china is banned from western defence equipments and MTCR and it has been this case for a long time. what else they can do?
> 
> Thier is nothing that india can do to that can force china, and china will never strain its relationship with Pakistan for india as china sees india as a Puppet of west while Pakistan as strategic and regional ally.
> 
> No matter how many resolutions you table, china will veto you just like two times in UN in last 6 months and now NSG.



China has gotten to where it is by acting through pragmatism, the opposite of Pakistan. If opposing India becomes too costly for them they will yield, just like they did with the 2008 waiver, abandoning Pakistan in the process. 

China initially claimed India's accession was not going to be part of the discussion. Not only were they proven wrong, but now US has said that India will be part of NSG by year's end and a special panel has already been appointed for that matter.

China was isolated in trying to directly stop India's NSG membership, few other countries were simply worried about procedures none directly opposed. We will see how they act in the next round.

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## AMCA

grey boy 2 said:


> I thought there's a dedicated thread for NSG news and updates?
> Anyway all the best to our Indian friends future NSG ride
> It reminded me of a little wisdom: "If dreams were horses Beggars would ride" dream on my friends, its FREE



Better a living beggar than a buried emperor.The Emperor dug its own grave at the NSG by standing against the majority for their poor "Dobby".


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## dadeechi

grey boy 2 said:


> I thought there's a dedicated thread for NSG news and updates?
> Anyway all the best to our Indian friends future NSG ride
> It reminded me of a little wisdom: "If dreams were horses Beggars would ride" dream on my friends, its FREE



No one has ever succeeded without trying

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## AMCA

CHD said:


> what diplomatic currency? china is self sufficient while the rest of the world is depending on them. Even today china is banned from western defence equipments and MTCR and it has been this case for a long time. what else they can do?
> 
> Thier is nothing that india can do to that can force china, and china will never strain its relationship with Pakistan for india as china sees india as a Puppet of west while Pakistan as strategic and regional ally.
> 
> No matter how many resolutions you table, china will veto you just like two times in UN in last 6 months and now NSG.



Hahahaha a strategic ally which cannot stand on its feet al alone and a puppet thats the fastest growing major economy. Man, I must admit you got a very good sense of humor there. You cannot use Veto as a counterweight to personal vengeance, India with all its lobbying can get 40 vetos against your interests at the NSG by not being a member too. Now you will have to surrender your egos to India if not today, tomorrow and you will see that happening when your interest are at stake.

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## ito

No need to take the Chinese rebuff so hard. I am happy that India is now standing for its interests. I hope India continues to pursue the same aggressive diplomacy. Now it is clear that China is an long term adversary of India. India has to adjust its geopolitical strategies according to the emerging realities of the world. China has made it clear it has arrived. As of now, India has no matching power of China. Grow our economy, make stronger strategic alliances with US and Japan at the same time not go overtly against China or single out China, and wait for the opportune time to strike back against China

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## Providence

hellfire said:


> Again - diplomatic currency ...! Sit and figure.
> 
> We are getting exactly what we would have got from NSG membership already - we get all benefits of same as the waiver which we have. Question arises why NSG bid?
> 
> Modi clearly hinted that there shall be consequences of China taking an anti-India stand. By showcasing a 'failed' bid, India indeed has placed itself in a position where in the world sees India as being a country which makes Chinese feel threatened (Chinese perceptions don't matter here) and China is projected as a country hell bent on containing the economic growth of a country based on renewable sources of energy, that too a country which is now fastest growing economy by slight margin and is expected to remain the course. India already has delayed the implementation of Paris Accord in aftermath of NSG failure.
> 
> 'Rest of the world' depending on them is a reciprocal relationship, it is also them depending on rest of the world. Theirs is an economy of massive manufacturing base, theirs is also an economy which is slowing due to the fact that their production capacity exceeds their requirement of servicing domestic market and as fiscal constraints creep into Europe and Western nations, the demand is slowing.
> 
> Please see the comment I have made in perspective of economic, diplomatic and political approach and make an informed comment.



Exactly the point I made in last thread. In pure tangible terms, what India has lost is next to nothing. They still get to buy uranium from countries and do their own nuclear research. 

What India has gained is, making China accept that it considers India as a full fledged geopolitical adversary. 

Bottom line is, all the horse crap uttered by chinese members here that they consider India as below par in global geopolitical landscape was UTTER CRAP.  

Think about it. About 8 members (except china) cited procedural norms as the constraint which actually doesn't mean sh!t since they themselves accepted a waiver for India in 2008. 

Only China has openly confronted India's application citing NPT signature as a binding. China is all alone and it will be bitch-slapped into submission pretty soon. They are already afraid.

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## illusion8

CHD said:


> china while Pakistan as strategic and regional ally.



There itself is the loss of diplomatic currency, it's like a country aligning itself with North Korea considered a rogue. It's not a positive relationship. 

Why didn't china plead pakistan's case at the NSG? How long will they keep vetoing sanctions on terrorists? Until one more major terrorist attack happens where internationals are killed and china is forced to use its veto to save another terrorist for the sake of pakistan

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## ito

Providence said:


> Exactly the point I made in last thread. In pure tangible terms, what India has lost is next to nothing. They still get to buy uranium from countries and do their own nuclear research.
> 
> What India has gained is, making China accept that it considers India as a full fledged geopolitical adversary.
> 
> Bottom line is, all the horse crap uttered by chinese members here that they consider India as below par in global geopolitical landscape was UTTER CRAP.
> 
> Think about it. About 8 members (except china) cited procedural norms as the constraint which actually doesn't mean sh!t since they themselves accepted a waiver for India in 2008.
> 
> Only China has openly confronted India's application citing NPT signature as a binding. China is all alone and it will be bitch-slapped into submission pretty soon. They are already afraid.



The other countries that were against India can be divided into two groups. The first group were countries such as Brazil and Switzerland that were not against India but wanted to discuss first on how to open NSG for non NPT members before discussing India's candidature. The second were evangelist countries such as Austria and New Zealand that went against any form of Nuclear proliferation. I would not blame them, because their intent was different and were not against India.

China is a totally different case. It wanted to stop India's candidature by hook or by crook. Its intent were not to give India a space on NSG.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Kaniska said:


> I do not think so...Rather It was obvious that China will stand by Pakistan..China and India relationship is just like more transactional relationship...So without getting anything in return, China will not accommodate India's interest..Rather it is not crystal clear than China and its priority is clearly visible for India which will propel and force India to be inclined more towards US...So ultimate beneficiary of this process is the USA...



What makes me puzzled is that you guys knew China will oppose your stance along with other countries.....They were very honest since the beginning in their stance and you knew it. But still Indians are making villain out of China, Instead you should criticize Switzerland, Mexico or Brazil who assured you for their support but took a 180 degree U-turn at 11th hour. They deceived you not China. This whole NSG saga has hurt your credibility and image and exposed your mindset too.......Indians used to remind us the power of their diplomacy. Really? Yeah, we have seen the power of indian diplomacy when those countries who assured you first took a U-turn and brought embarrassment for you. Not discrediting Indian diplomacy but I m dead sure it was due to US you were able to get support of so many countries not due to some Modi magic as some bakhts rant continuously.

China was very honest in her stance.

No offense

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## ito

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> What makes me puzzled is that you guys knew China will oppose your stance along with other countries.....They were very honest since the beginning in their stance and you knew it. But still Indians are making villain out of China, Instead you should criticize Switzerland, Mexico or Brazil who assured you for their support but took a 180 degree U-turn at 11th hour. They deceived you not China. This whole NSG saga has hurt your credibility and image and exposed your mindset too.......Indians used to remind us the power of their diplomacy. Really? Yeah, we have seen the power of indian diplomacy when those countries who assured you first took a U-turn and brought embarrassment for you. Not discrediting Indian diplomacy but I m dead sure it was due to US you were able to get support of so many countries not due to some Modi magic as some bakhts rant continuously.
> 
> China was very honest in her stance.
> 
> No offense



This is bound to happen sooner or latter. India and China are mega countries with over billion population each. Both are growing economies and have global aspirations, so geopolitical rivalry is a natural consequence. 

As on the other countries that were against India, they can be divided into two groups. The first group were countries such as Brazil and Switzerland that were not against India but wanted to discuss first on how to open NSG for non NPT members before discussing India's candidature. The second were evangelist countries such as Austria and New Zealand that went against any form of Nuclear proliferation. I would not blame them, because their intent was different and were not against India.

China is a totally different case,. It wanted to stop India's candidature by hook or by crook. Its intent were not to give India a space on global high table.


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## Great Sachin

war&peace said:


> That was a gamble that Modi played and lost and of course it will have repercussions. Though Pakistan woke up at eleventh hour and fifty ninth minute, it still got its act together and was able to at least block India's entry on fair grounds, now it is NPT vs non-NPT members states, a principled stance. However, Pakistan needs concerted diplomacy to get a place in MTCR.


what woke up. Pakistan's application was not even worth consideromg...


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## war&peace

Great Sachin said:


> what woke up. Pakistan's application was not even worth consideromg...


Can you backup your statement with any reference?

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## DrPuff

What is this Chest thumping about Pakistanis? Pakistani's application was not even discussed & not even brought up by the countries that opposed India except China. As a sole nation we have right to try out best for betterment of our nation & harvest all opportunities. Except china others put up the issues like non NPT should be included with modified NSG policies. They asked NSG body to bring in such policies but China said inclusion of new member would be a disaster.They actually gave proper reason..


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## DrPuff

Let it be rolling baby..


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## Hulk

This is very good news and signifies that NSG members themselves feel that they need a person to continue working with countries in opposition to resolve the issue. It also indicates that while there is delay, signs are very positive. Both Obama and Putin has shown confidence in India getting into NSG.

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## Dungeness

ito said:


> This is bound to happen sooner or latter. India and China are mega countries with over billion population each. Both are growing economies and have global aspirations, so geopolitical rivalry is a natural consequence.
> 
> *China is a totally different case,. It wanted to stop India's candidature by hook or by crook. Its intent were not to give India a space on global high table*.



China maybe a different case, but it is not the one you stated. You are the only country in the world that tag its nuclear missiles "China Killer". What the hell do you expect? Let you take a free ride so you can buy cheaper nuclear material to build more "China Killer"?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

ito said:


> This is bound to happen sooner or latter. India and China are mega countries with over billion population each. Both are growing economies and have global aspirations, so geopolitical rivalry is a natural consequence.
> 
> As on the other countries that were against India, they can be divided into two groups. The first group were countries such as Brazil and Switzerland that were not against India but wanted to discuss first on how to open NSG for non NPT members before discussing India's candidature. The second were evangelist countries such as Austria and New Zealand that went against any form of Nuclear proliferation. I would not blame them, because their intent was different and were not against India.
> 
> China is a totally different case,. It wanted to stop India's candidature by hook or by crook. Its intent were not to give India a space on global high table.



Respectfully, I m not gonna buy it.......Just like Chinese members are surprised, I m surprised too, sometime i felt Indians hate China more than Pakistan. There are lot of better ways to engage China rather than joining SCS in pretext of "freedom of navigation". When Indians will market themselves as COUNTER WEIGHT to China and how The "world's largest democracy" is standing up to "Authoritarian regime of China". This was bound to happen. 



> China is a totally different case,. It wanted to stop India's candidature by hook or by crook. Its intent were not to give India a space on global high table.



FALSE.......If that was the case, you wouldn't have become member of SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization) which you became recently......obviously with the consent of Chinese......no brainer to find that out...

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## Srinivas

It is China that will be at loss, India will align with west and compensate the loss.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> *The BJP government's misadventure to pit Beijing against New Delhi on a global forum will incur a huge cost.
> *
> *POLITICS*
> *| 5-minute read | 25-06-2016*
> *
> 
> *
> *ASHOK SWAIN*
> *http://www.dailyo.in/user/11846/ashoswai*
> The Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) annual plenary session in Seoul ended on June 24 even without a discussion on India's membership application. Whatever the official spin, this outcome was not unexpected.
> 
> No one questions India's eligibility to be a member of this exclusive club, however the diplomatic blitzkrieg approach Narendra Modi and his foreign policy "team" took to achieve it raises serious doubts about their basic understanding of the realpolitik in the post-2008 world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This 'event management' style of foreign policy has become too costly for India.
> By not becoming a member of NSG, which was formed mainly in response to India's first nuclear test in 1974, India has not lost much per se.
> 
> Most of membership benefits have been already accrued due to the grant of an exemption by this export-control cartel, which was negotiated diligently by the UPA government in 2008.
> 
> Only tangible benefit India can get by being a member of the NSG is that it can prevent Pakistan from being a member in future.
> 
> Also read - Foolish to even think China will support India's NSG bid
> 
> Thus it is obvious to ask why Modi raised the stakes on pushing the agenda. Undoubtedly, it would have given him and his supporters the possibility to drumbeat the hype of his stature as a "global leader".
> 
> However, this "event management" style of foreign policy without a comprehensive global power analysis has become too costly for India.
> 
> Foreign policy success since the AB Vajpayee regime to de-hyphenate India from Pakistan in the global arena has taken a serious beating with Modi's misadventures.
> 
> Upon failing to get NSG membership, Modi administration tries to spin that it had managed to isolate China in Seoul and successfully created a near consensus in the favour of its application. This is merely a lie.
> 
> Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.
> 
> Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.
> 
> Since 2008, India had managed to secure itself from being censured on the NPT issue, but Modi has exposed India yet again.
> 
> The list of losses for the thoughtless hoopla over NSG membership is a long one. It has enhanced Pakistan to be hyphenated with India and has also exposed the country to global pressure over signing the NPT.
> 
> The immense negative blow of this senseless jingoism in Modi's foreign policy is that it has helped China to shed its inhibition in openly coming out against India in global fora.
> 
> Some Modi supporters are trying hard to paint it as a success as India is finally playing power politics at the big table.
> 
> Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal. China, in spite of its huge economic strength and massive domination in both conventional and nuclear military hardware, was reluctant to even enter into any confrontation with the global power system until the 2008 global financial crisis.
> 
> But Modi, ever in a hurry to prove himself, does not want to wait for the right moment.
> 
> In open confrontation with China, India has most to lose. We have a ballooning trade deficit vis-à-vis China.
> 
> In the last year, deficit figure has reached close to 50 billion dollars in China's favour. Moreover, while China exports telecommunications equipment, computer hardware, industrial machinery and other manufactured goods, India sends back mostly raw materials such as cotton yarn, gems and other precious metals like copper and iron ore.
> 
> The character of exported goods exposes the state of industrial development of exporting countries. On industrial and economic development fronts, India lags at least two decades behind China, if not more.
> 
> In economic terms, India needs China more than China needs India. While China is extremely adept in dealing with emotive issues, not affecting its bilateral commercial ties, India does not have much experience in managing this contradiction.
> 
> After open confrontation over the NSG membership, the hawkish views on China within Sangh Parivar could very likely gain traction and that might affect bilateral trade relations.
> 
> China not only has the upper hand over the bilateral trade, but also upstream control over a large portion of India's river water, originating from the Himalayas.
> 
> While India has been traditionally playing the powerful role of an upstream riparian vis-à-vis Bangladesh with respect to the Brahmaputra river, that honour has now gone to China after its decision to build five major dams on the river.
> 
> Also read - Politics behind India's bid for NSG
> 
> China has also built dams on the upper reaches of the Indus and Sutlej rivers. India is now to a large extent dependent on China for the execution of its grand river-linking plan to meet the growing water scarcity in the country.
> 
> China's influence is immense on most of India's neighbours. One doesn't need to elaborate China's control over its "iron brother" Pakistan and "ideological brother" Myanmar.
> 
> For many years now, China has also cultivated its strategic assets in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives.
> 
> Even in Nepal, China is playing the role of a kingmaker. To counter China in the neighbourhood, India possesses a single Dalai Lama card, and that is fast losing its importance in front of China's increasing global power and influence.
> 
> It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China.
> 
> While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.
> 
> The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.
> 
> The latter's nuisance value is immense over India's goals of achieving economic development, food security as well as internal stability and regional cooperation.
> 
> Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council.
> 
> http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html
> 
> Not trying to influence your opinion but i believe China should never submit to psychological warfare being played by India...Indians are shamelessly trying to make China appear bad cop despite knowing others opposed their bid too. This shows a very rude and unethical on part of India. It requires tremendous confidence (shame u should read) to do such thing. I believe that China should keep pressure on India time by time. It is very necessary to put them in check. They have opposed CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor) , singed Logistics agreement with US, involved in encouraging China and Pakistan separatist factions, blocking of Nepal and what not. If allowed go uncheck, they'll wreck havoc in this region. They need some nice and humble attitude and only Pakistan and China can provide them that. They need some really serious taming because they are riding too high, crossing their limits and looking down upon us.
> On the other hand, We Pakistanis are going very well along with you. Will Love to see more close cooperation with you guys in future in every arena of the world.
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon @rott @grey boy 2 @GS Zhou @AndrewJin @Beast @Dungeness @beijingwalker @oprih @cirr @+4vsgorillas-Apebane @Tiqiu





imran169 said:


> *For Indians...Who were jumping up and down on every thread that 47 out of 48 countries have supported India's application...it was only EVIL China...!
> -------
> Only 32 members out of 48 have supported India's application. Not only China, but Brazil, Ireland, Austria, South Africa, Turkey, New Zealand too have openly opposed India's membership over the NPT issue.
> 
> Even Switzerland, in spite of Modi's recent photo-op with its President, refused to endorse India's application sans NPT.*



Can you list out the 16 countries which opposed India?

I can only see 5 countries in your list.


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

Srinivas said:


> It is China that will be at loss, India will align with west and compensate the loss.



India has, not will, already aligned with West. Thats why you're gonna seeing the benefits of it. NSG case can be termed as first episode...

All the best to NSG entry. It is no brainer to find out that once you enter in NSG, you'll block Pakistan permanently...

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## Srinivas

Chinese-Dragon said:


> And in every inning, China still has veto power.
> 
> Which means we can always shut it down, for any reason. Hell, we don't even need to give a reason.
> 
> One day India will finally come to their senses and give a decent offering instead of trying to play tricks.
> 
> They spent so much political capital and hard cash just to fail here. When they could have just negotiated with China to begin with, but that would be too logical.



One day the time will be right for India to get the memberships as China realizes it's blunders and fall in line. 

This is not a rant !

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Glorino said:


> Every Asian nation understands how China is promoting Asian Unity- so so so so clever Chinese promoting peace in South China Sea and Asean and in North East Asia and in the Indian Sub Continent .ONLY PAKISTAN DO NOT UNDERSTAND. They started liking to eating p............



Keep this debate civil and avoid derailing the thread....If you use abusive slangs on Pakistanis, I will respond in kind...I won't like if someone trys to derail my thread...

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## danger007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I admit that I got a bit annoyed by basically every Indian member over the past week constantly boasting about how "China can't do anything to stop India's NSG bid!" and "47 out of 48 countries support India!" and "China backed down so easily!"
> 
> Hell even the Indian media kept reporting that "47 out of 48 countries supported India" (which is course is 100% wrong).
> 
> Do these guys not understand the concept of a "veto"?




China haulted the process.. bid not rejected yet.. your posts are bit entertaining...


----------



## Hellfire

smuhs1 said:


> And *Indian mental masturbation *for Indian membership of NSG start again. I would advise my Pakistani friends to avoid NSG issue as it will never gonna happen.



Didn't know that was possible - the bold part ...!

But your advice is correct. It may/may not happen, we are already getting the benefits due a NSG member. But China has painted itself in a colour it may not like a few months down the line. As a member has already pointed out, China made public statement denying NSG will be considering Indian application - in so far it took a public stand on the day itself. For Chinese, loss of face is an insult, unlike our subcontinental two faced politicians. What occurred in NSG plenary was a loss of face for the Chinese when their claims of Indian application not being an issue proved false.

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## ito

Dungeness said:


> China maybe a different case, but it is not the one you stated. You are the only country in the world that tag its nuclear missiles "China Killer". What the hell do you expect? Let you take a free ride so you can buy cheaper nuclear material to build more "China Killer"?



There is no such thing as China Killer in India's delivery system. You cannot blame India for some nomenclature given by some media person.


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## Providence

ito said:


> The other countries that were against India can be divided into two groups. The first group were countries such as Brazil and Switzerland that were not against India but wanted to discuss first on how to open NSG for non NPT members before discussing India's candidature. The second were evangelist countries such as Austria and New Zealand that went against any form of Nuclear proliferation. I would not blame them, because their intent was different and were not against India.
> 
> China is a totally different case. It wanted to stop India's candidature by hook or by crook. Its intent were not to give India a space on NSG.



Them first arguing that pakistan should also be part of NSG and from there on saying that India's application is not in the agenda and doing a volte face that a NPT signature is a perquisite shows China is baffled by India's rise and they clearly have no idea how to stop it. 

Go back even a 2000 years. China never had any true friends like EVER. Now you know WHY !

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## Hellfire

@CHD Oh and I forgot to add, please understand that the majority of nations supplying the diplomatic support to India are the cartel of nations having the higher end of spectrum for technology and economic clout, collectively. 

If you still do not understand what it means, suggest read the reasons for failure of USSR inspite of being a fundamentally ideal society, Russia alone having control over world's 60% reserve of fresh water, crude aplenty and minerals still untapped. Some have claimed as much as 50% of resources of world were under Soviet control. They had one of the most advanced technological base to. Yet they lost.

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## SBUS-CXK

DesiGuy1403 said:


> Decent offering to Chinese?
> Don't worry, we will sure make a great offering to Chinese


India, please don't humiliate China 
After all, India is a superpower. And we China is a developing country.

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## Sam.

Providence said:


> Them first arguing that pakistan should also be part of NSG and from there on saying that India's application is not in the agenda and doing a volte face that a NPT signature is a perquisite shows China is baffled by India's rise and they clearly have no idea how to stop it.
> 
> Go back even a 2000 years. China never had any true friends like EVER. Now you know WHY !


If two people want to grow from same position then there is always two way
1)Grow yourself so fast so other can't catch up
2)Pull the leg of other guy so difference is high.

China made itself hypocrite as it blames West for pulling it's leg while doing the same to it's rivals.

Game is on and enjoy the show my friend.

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## AMCA

smuhs1 said:


> And Indian mental masturbation for Indian membership of NSG start again. I would advise my Pakistani friends to avoid NSG issue as it will never gonna happen.



Kyoon Bunty, tera soap slow hai kya?? . Just kidding buddy. Well It may not be a reality for Pakistan but for India it would soon be. Despite your application to NSG, your higher than mountain and deeper than ocean friends could not utter a word of your inclusion to the group, keeping in mind your pathetic state of affairs. 

You have a chance to enter only by letting India enter and both the Chinese and you know it. The Chinese are waiting for the right moment to slingshoot your chances with our reputation.

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## graphican

India is not going to get it unless China agrees.. and why would China agree to help its enemy get stronger in the development of lethal weapons which would eventually be used against Pakistan or its own country?

If USA could make this happen, it would've made it happen. But if you like, you are very welcome to chase shadows.

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## DesiGuy1403

Two said:


> India, please don't humiliate China
> After all, India is a superpower. And we China is a developing country.



Don't think you lot need our help in doing that 

I mean, you lot supported a terrorist in UN.....that must have hurt for a common chinese citizen for sure.


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## danger007

smuhs1 said:


> And Indian mental masturbation for Indian membership of NSG start again. I would advise my Pakistani friends to avoid NSG issue as it will never gonna happen.




And pakistani pom poms started again..

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## AMCA

graphican said:


> India is not going to get it unless China agrees.. and why would China agree to help its enemy stronger in the development of lethal weapons which would eventually be used against Pakistan or its own country?
> 
> If USA could make this happen, it could've made it happen. But if you like, you are very welcome to chase shadows.



China, US and Russia in one group and China fears India could Inflict more damage than the existing ones? Well allowing a new member to its group is one of the million job an NSG member has and when its vetoing decesions made by the majority, its in a way compromising its own other interests and when China has its interests at stake, it would soon succumb to the decesions of majority. Do you think China will stick to your interests compromising theirs? Never..


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

graphican said:


> India is not going to get it unless China agrees.. and *why would China agree to help its enemy stronger in the development of lethal weapons which would eventually be used against Pakistan or its own country?*
> 
> If USA could make this happen, it could've made it happen. But if you like, you are very welcome to chase shadows.


And yet, they agreed for India's NSG waiver, compromising both China and Pakistan's national security



hellfire said:


> Didn't know that was possible - the bold part ...!
> 
> But your advice is correct. It may/may not happen, we are already getting the benefits due a NSG member. But China has painted itself in a colour it may not like a few months down the line. As a member has already pointed out, China made public statement denying NSG will be considering Indian application - in so far it took a public stand on the day itself. For Chinese, loss of face is an insult, unlike our subcontinental two faced politicians. *What occurred in NSG plenary was a loss of face for the Chinese when their claims of Indian application not being an issue proved false*.


All thanks to Japan for that

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## Pandora

hellfire said:


> Didn't know that was possible - the bold part ...!
> 
> But your advice is correct. It may/may not happen, we are already getting the benefits due a NSG member. But China has painted itself in a colour it may not like a few months down the line. As a member has already pointed out, China made public statement denying NSG will be considering Indian application - in so far it took a public stand on the day itself. For Chinese, loss of face is an insult, unlike our subcontinental two faced politicians. What occurred in NSG plenary was a loss of face for the Chinese when their claims of Indian application not being an issue proved false.



I think it is a principle stand and there was no loss of face. Chinese stand is justified as exemptions should not be made for only one nation. In my opnion NSG has no legal grounds so it hardly matters in the long run. India shouldnt have made such a big issue for mere membership which is not even worth it. From what i can see both india and pakistan are getting what they want even without NSG.



AMCA said:


> Kyoon Bunty, tera soap slow hai kya?? . Just kidding buddy. Well It may not be a reality for Pakistan but for India it would soon be. Despite your application to NSG, your higher than mountain and deeper than ocean friends could not utter a word of your inclusion to the group, keeping in mind your pathetic state of affairs.
> 
> You have a chance to enter only by letting India enter and both the Chinese and you know it. The Chinese are waiting for the right moment to slingshoot your chances with our reputation.



Well Pakistan hardly has any wish for NSG membership. It is India which made such a big fuss about it as NSG is not even worth an effort. Both Pakistan and India are getting what they want even without NSG membership.



danger007 said:


> And pakistani pom poms started again..



It is not Pakistan but India which is making such a big fuss about it. To be honest India didnt push for UNSC as much as they are pushing for NSG. In reality India is embarrassing itself by trying to achieve something which is not even required.

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## AMCA

smuhs1 said:


> I think it is a principle stand and there was no loss of face. Chinese stand is justified as exemptions should not be made for only one nation. In my opnion NSG has no legal grounds so it hardly matters in the long run. India shouldnt have made such a big issue for mere membership which is not even worth it. From what i can see both india and pakistan are getting what they want even without NSG.
> 
> 
> 
> Well Pakistan hardly has any wish for NSG membership. It is India which made such a big fuss about it as NSG is not even worth an effort. Both Pakistan and India are getting what they want even without NSG membership.



Then why did you apply? Its pretty simple, you can get through with the ticket of exception India gets by just leaving it applied and let me say that is a smart move(if only diplomacy works that way. ). India is getting what it wants even without NSG, could you care to explain who apart from the Chinese do business with you?


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## Pandora

AMCA said:


> Then why did you apply? Its pretty simple, you can get through with the ticket of exception India gets by just leaving it applied and let me say that is a smart move(if only diplomacy works that way. ). India is getting what it wants even without NSG, could you care to explain who apart from the Chinese do business with you?



Pakistan applied to undermine indian membership as it gave China pretence to build its case. You wont see any hype about membership in Pakistani media and any one hardly mentioned it. Well china is providing us with state of the art nuclear reactors so why would we be looking anywhere else? We dont even trust Western nations enough to involve them in our nuclear affairs.

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## AMCA

grey boy 2 said:


> Got to give it to you Indians for your never ending "effort, aspiration" of your "NSG DREAM"
> KUDOS my dear Indian friends and i'm serious
> Oh btw i've noticing quite a few of "usual suspects" of "closet Indians" keep crawling out from their "hole of origin shame" to some what taking revenge of the so-called "Chinese road block to the Indians NSG defeat" PRICELESS



Closet Indians?? Man, if you need to troll, make sure you dont become the protagonist yourself . Learn the basics. I can help you this time, but dont expect it everytime. You ask any of your friends and they will tell you we dont have place to shit man. Besides, Indian version of toilet has no closet nor a flush, may be two to three rings down beneth with septic far away. HAPPY TROLLING!!


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## MilSpec

Dungeness said:


> I don't think China take this as a victory at all. It was just the matter of principle. China simply did not see the reason and merit to bend the rules for India only. What India is expecting was an exception to the rules, from which China doesn't benefit, besides China was considered an enemy to be nuked by your countrymen.
> 
> Why would Indians even be surprised and hurt? It maybe due to India's own peculiar sense of entitlement?


where was the principle during proliferating nuclear tech and delivery systems to Pak and NoKo? please save this bs for someone else.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> I don't care at all. They already have the waiver so what is the difference?
> 
> I do think the amount of arrogance on display is hilarious though. They need to learn not to count their chickens before they have hatched.


well, what is hilarious here is out on every other thread for everyone to read... 



Max said:


> you have worst record then north korea.. NSG was formed bcoz of ur dirty games.. You are training north korean scientists in india.. You term your every weapon as china killer and Pakistan killer...
> 
> www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/06/india-embarrassing-north-korean-connection-160620195559208.html


read... learn ...repeat... come back when you can hold your own.


http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/pakistan/nuclear/

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/welcome-pakistani-nuclear-weapons-101-13942

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...for-know-how/2010/11/12/gIQAZ1kH1H_story.html

http://thediplomat.com/2016/01/pakistan-and-north-koreas-nuclear-extortion/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aparna-pande/north-koreas-pakistan-con_b_8938516.html

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## SBUS-CXK

DesiGuy1403 said:


> Don't think you lot need our help in doing that
> 
> I mean, you lot supported a terrorist in UN.....that must have hurt for a common chinese citizen for sure.


Don't worry, after all, our military training is very good, excellent equipment. So, we don't have to worry about such as the mumbai terror attacks. Our army will soon have the fastest processing. No‘t more than 10 police officers and one hundred civilians were killed. 

Look, the Chinese army once again won the Jordan "warrior race international tournament commando"

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## AMCA

smuhs1 said:


> Pakistan applied to undermine indian membership as it gave China pretence to build its case. You wont see any hype about membership in Pakistani media and any one hardly mentioned it. Well china is providing us with state of the art nuclear reactors so why would we be looking anywhere else? We dont even trust Western nations enough to involve them in our nuclear affairs.



You earn my respect sir. You maintained your temper real good. My experience with other pakistanis were not so. Anyways, living in the world of globalisation and trusting only the Chinese will only impact your economy as it has. You need to work with everyone to even have a say in any global forums otherwise you keep pushing your coins through your friend. Its not bad if you are comfortable with it. Just my 2 cents.

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## grey boy 2

AMCA said:


> Closet Indians?? Man, if you need to troll, make sure you dont become the protagonist yourself . Learn the basics. I can help you this time, but dont expect it everytime. You ask any of your friends and they will tell you we dont have place to shit man. Besides, Indian version of toilet has no closet nor a flush, may be two to three rings down beneth with septic far away. HAPPY TROLLING!!



Thankyou for your kind lecture, my post has nothing to do with the decent Indians that take pride as Indians
Only for those classless "false flaggers" should feel offended from my post
And YOU are not one of them ....so cheers

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## HAIDER

WASHINGTON: The Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) strengthened global efforts to discourage proliferation by refusing to accept India as a member, said a senior US lawmaker.

But a senior Obama administration official told Washington-based Indian journalists that he was confident India would be a full member of the NSG by the end of the year.

The NSG recently held its annual and plenary sessions in Seoul, South Korea. The key issue before the plenary session was to consider membership applications from India and Pakistan. The meeting concluded on Friday, without admitting either,

*Administration official confident that India will join group by December*
“By refraining from admitting India, the NSG strengthened both the treaty and the broader global non-proliferation regime,” said Senator Ed Markey, a Democrat.

NSG guidelines insist that only signatories of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) should be admitted to the elite club. Both India and Pakistan have not signed the NPT.

I*n a statement issued by his office, Senator Markey also noted that the NSG was founded in response to India’s 1974 nuclear test, and it had worked for decades to prevent the sharing of technology that could contribute to the further spread of nuclear weapons.*

“If India joined the NSG, it would be the only participating government in the organisation that was not a party to the NPT, weakening the NSG’s commitment to the treaty,” he said.

Last month, at a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on US-India Relations, Senator Markey had warned that India’s admission into the NSG without signing the NPT would trigger a “never-ending” nuclear race in South Asia.

Criticising the Obama administration for lobbying for India’s membership, he argued that “making these exemptions” for New Delhi would cause Pakistan to further expand its nuclear capacity.

“What you are doing is creating an action-reaction that is leading to a never-ending escalation cycle that ultimately leads to development of nuclear weapons, including battlefield nuclear weapons,” Senator Markey told US Assistant Secretary for South Asia Nisha Biswal, who explained the administration’s policy to the panel.

After NSG’s refusal to admit India, a senior US official told an Indian news agency, PTI, that there was still a “path forward” for India to join the group.

“We are confident that India would be a full member of the (NSG) regime by the end of the year,” he said. “It needs some work (but) we are confident that we have got a path forward by the end of this year.”

The official, however, refused to divulge the proceedings of the Seoul meetings, saying that details of those internal deliberations were confidential.

The US, he said, had “worked closely” with India and other countries on this issue. He noted that “months of discussions” had also preceded India’s admission into the Missile Technology Control Regime early this month.

_Published in Dawn, June 26th, 2016_

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## Hellfire

smuhs1 said:


> I think it is a principle stand and there was no loss of face. Chinese stand is justified as exemptions should not be made for only one nation. In my opnion NSG has no legal grounds so it hardly matters in the long run. India shouldnt have made such a big issue for mere membership which is not even worth it. From what i can see both india and pakistan are getting what they want even without NSG.



I would disagree to your contention as public posturing by China is only undertaken once they are sure and for them any stand they take can not be a 'defeat' or 'deviant' from their posture. Anyways that is my perspective and my assessment of their diplomatic efforts over the years. There can be aberrations and this might be one or there might, indeed, have been a colossal miscalculation in Chinese claims of tissue not even up for discussion. Such a monumental blunder is not known for Chinese; it is more Indian and Pakistani style, errr ... sorry more David Cameron style (his Brexit referendum)!!!

Yes, we have common understanding for the remaining of your lines above.

Thanks

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## Kaniska

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> What makes me puzzled is that you guys knew China will oppose your stance along with other countries.....They were very honest since the beginning in their stance and you knew it. But still Indians are making villain out of China, Instead you should criticize Switzerland, Mexico or Brazil who assured you for their support but took a 180 degree U-turn at 11th hour. They deceived you not China. This whole NSG saga has hurt your credibility and image and exposed your mindset too.......Indians used to remind us the power of their diplomacy. Really? Yeah, we have seen the power of indian diplomacy when those countries who assured you first took a U-turn and brought embarrassment for you. Not discrediting Indian diplomacy but I m dead sure it was due to US you were able to get support of so many countries not due to some Modi magic as some bakhts rant continuously.
> 
> China was very honest in her stance.
> 
> No offense



To some extent I agree with you...Modi has lot of magic that Non Indian will ever realize it...At least it is better to try and fail rather than not trying anything...


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## Great Sachin

Modi haters are enjoying this .. but they should also know that this man never accept defeat..he will come back even harder...He is Modi....Jai ho

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## graphican

AMCA said:


> China, US and Russia in one group and China fears India could Inflict more damage than the existing ones? Well allowing a new member to its group is one of the million job an NSG member has and when its vetoing decesions made by the majority, its in a way compromising its own other interests and when China has its interests at stake, it would soon succumb to the decesions of majority. Do you think China will stick to your interests compromising theirs? Never..



So why do you think China is opposing Indian position in NSG? Turks are pro-Pakistan, now what is making China and even Russia go against India?



Syama Ayas said:


> And yet, they agreed for India's NSG waiver, compromising both China and Pakistan's national security
> 
> 
> All thanks to Japan for that



Wait and see, if at all, India is not going to become a NSG member anytime soon.


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## Indika

Oh my god we are afraid hence we will use the veto ........








It had to start some where , it had to happen the confrontation/conflict has to take place. Chinese opposition indicates India is indeed moving in right direction. 

Modi needs to be congratulated on taking hard decisions instead of running away like congress.

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## Beidou2020

Srinivas said:


> One day the time will be right for India to get the memberships as China realizes it's blunders and fall in line.
> 
> This is not a rant !



India will get membership in NSG, when you agree to NPT.

Not a very difficult thing to comprehend buddy.

But China beat India again in this NSG battle. India sure is very good at losing to China

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## Srinivas

Beidou2020 said:


> India will get membership in NSG, when you agree to NPT.
> 
> Not a very difficult thing to comprehend buddy.
> 
> But China beat India again in this NSG battle. India sure is very good at losing to China



we got 40+ members support !


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## Beidou2020

Srinivas said:


> we got 40+ members support !



Are you in the NSG?

Btw, it's good to see my old sparring buddy Srinivas again.

Long time fella.

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## Skillrex

graphican said:


> So why do you think China is opposing Indian position in NSG? Turks are pro-Pakistan, now what is making China and even* Russia go against India*?
> 
> 
> 
> Wait and see, if at all, India is not going to become a NSG member anytime soon.



where... show me link.. show me source.. yesterday a member posted tweets from PM thanking russia for its support..


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## Srinivas

Beidou2020 said:


> Are in the NSG?



You are not getting my point, China as a member of NSG (a recently inducted one with dubious record of proliferation) can only manage handfull of countries to oppose India's bid.

This is a failure of NSG membership rules not a victory of China, China not only failed with this move but got isolated infront of the world.

India's is rising !

The game is still on !!


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## Beidou2020

Srinivas said:


> You are not getting my point, China as a member of NSG (a recently inducted one with dubious record of proliferation) can only manage handfull of countries to oppose India's bid.
> 
> This is a failure of NSG membership rules not a victory of China, China not only failed with this move but got isolated infront of the world.
> 
> India's is rising !
> 
> The game is still on !!



Did you get NSG or not?

I want results, I'm a results oriented person.

If China failed, why you guys all fuming at China?

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## Srinivas

Beidou2020 said:


> Did you get NSG or not?
> 
> I want results, I'm a results oriented person.
> 
> If China failed, why you guys all fuming at China?



The answer is in my post, the game is still on and there is a new committee and consultations that are going on for India's membership.


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## Beidou2020

Srinivas said:


> The answer is in my post, the game is still on and there is a new committee and consultations that are going on for India's membership.



It's amazing that a superpower like India are getting pushed around by a weakling like China 

How do you guys manage to do it?

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## navtrek

Chinese-Dragon said:


> And in every inning, China still has veto power.
> 
> Which means we can always shut it down, for any reason. Hell, we don't even need to give a reason.
> 
> One day India will finally come to their senses and give a decent offering instead of trying to play tricks.
> 
> They spent so much political capital and hard cash just to fail here. When they could have just negotiated with China to begin with, but that would be too logical.



Do you realize that one day you will get the same treatment in return wait up buddy every dog has its day. Its now your we will be there too and then we will talk till then enjoy.


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## Mav3rick

After reading the article I am surprised that the crucial, almost puppet master like role of the US was ignored. When you look at the whole situation objectively, it appears the the US pushed India to try getting into NSG rather then the other way around.


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## Director General

Senator Markey has been a complete failure.
He opposed the India-US Nucear deal but failed miserably as majority of Congress cleared the deal.
In 2010 he also opposed sale of AH-64E to India and once again he failed as vast majority of Congress refused to back him in blocking the deal.
Then he also wanted US to block sale of certain componets used by India in aircrafts and satellites but DoD paid no attention to his requests.


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## cerberus

Beidou2020 said:


> Did you get NSG or not?
> 
> I want results, I'm a results oriented person.
> 
> If China failed, why you guys all fuming at China?


Did it really matter NSG member ship is more of political seat for india than material since we get wavier from it long ago
Us backing let us into MTCR and other groups

There more elite group than NSG in this world
Such Australian group and wassenaar arrangement membership of which india will be part off

So in the End china power play is hollow victory in the end


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## navtrek

grey boy 2 said:


> I thought there's a dedicated thread for NSG news and updates?
> Anyway all the best to our Indian friends future NSG ride
> It reminded me of a little wisdom: "If dreams were horses Beggars would ride" dream on my friends, its FREE


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

Max said:


> get lost copy paste machine..



Calm down, bro....Don't do this. Their propaganda will burst one day...

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## Gibbs

grey boy 2 said:


> Good read, thanks the op for sharing
> An strict forward no nonsense "Death certificate" for the Indians NSG bid failure
> 
> (1) Playing power politics in the big league is praiseworthy, but if you do not have enough firepower to play the game it can be suicidal.
> 
> (2) It is critical that Modi and his foreign policy team make an honest evaluation of the risks attached to enticing China to an open confrontation. India has already gone ahead in cooperating with the United States to militarily contain China
> While Modi actively collaborates in the containment of China, at the same time, expecting China not to reciprocate in the same coin is not only amateurish, but also plain foolhardy.
> 
> (3)The failure at Seoul is not a big deal. However, Modi's misadventure to pit India against China will incur the country a huge cost.
> 
> While Indians calling for China's head will continued as expected.......
> *"Without China's support, India can never fulfill its dream of becoming a permanent member of the Security Council." *



Dead on.. To the points.. Especially the 2nd one..

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## Beidou2020

cerberus said:


> Did it really matter NSG member ship is more of political seat for india than material since we get wavier from it long ago
> Us backing let us into MTCR and other groups
> 
> There more elite group than NSG in this world
> Such Australian group and wassenaar arrangement membership of which india will be part off
> 
> So in the End china power play is hollow victory in the end



 if this is irrelevant then why is India so mad?

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## cerberus

Beidou2020 said:


> if this is irrelevant then why is India so mad?


Only mad is chinese who falling in trap of india 

India successfully made its concessions in gathering 40+ countries in its support
Against china 

China playing lone wolf in this game its ramifications will have great impact

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## Gibbs




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## neem456

*
India's Hope For Nuke Club Entry Alive, NSG To Meet Again This Year: Sources*
All India | Written by Nidhi Razdan | Updated: June 26, 2016 12:28 IST
*EMAIL
PRINT*
7*COMMENTS*




*NEW DELHI: *
*HIGHLIGHTS*

NSG to consider process to include non NPT states as members: Sources
US to push for India's membership by the end of this year, say sources
China remains a major hurdle to India's bid to join elite nuke club
 India may have lost out to becoming a member of the elite Nuclear Suppliers Group during its plenary in Seoul this week, but its hopes of joining the group this year are still alive.

NDTV has learnt that despite China's strong opposition to India, the NSG has decided to meet again later this year to discuss the process for allowing non NPT signatories like India, into the group. Sources say the suggestion for another meeting came from Mexico and was opposed by China. But those objections were set aside.

Diplomats familiar with the developments say no date has been decided yet, but it's likely to take place towards the end of the year. The NSG has set up a panel for informal consultations on India's membership. This panel will be headed by Argentine Ambassador Rafael Grossi.

A senior US official had told PTI on Friday that there is "a path forward" for India to become full member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group by the end of the year, saying, "We are confident that we have got a path forward by the end of this year".

"It needs some work. But we are confident that India would be a full member of the (NSG) regime by the end of the year," the official told PTI on condition of anonymity.

India's attempts to become a member during the NSG's Seoul plenary failed this week as China effectively scuttled the bid, refusing to even discuss India's case specifically. Other countries like Switzerland and Brazil also raised issues regarding setting a common criteria for non-NPT states, along with discussing India's bid. While countries like Ireland and New Zealand wanted the criteria to be spelt out first.

The NSG's special meeting later this year gives India another window but China remains a challenge.

Beijing snubbed Prime Minister Modi's outreach and scuttled India's bid in Seoul. The Prime Minister had met China's President Xi Jinping in Tashkent earlier in the week, to push for India's case, but to no avail. A disappointed India attacked China in its official statement, saying "one country" had raised procedural hurdles repeatedly. India has a tough diplomatic task ahead with China to try and bring them on board.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-t...on-in-nuke-club-nsg-this-year-sources-1423518


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Kaniska said:


> I do not think so...Rather It was obvious that China will stand by Pakistan..China and India relationship is just like more transactional relationship...So without getting anything in return, China will not accommodate India's interest.



Agreed....


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## illusion8

What ties???


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

MilSpec said:


> you seem to be quite disturbed on the NSG issue.


Correction, He is quiet disturbed on the NSG waiver issue.
NSG membership probably assuages the torment.

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## GURU DUTT

cerberus said:


> Only mad is chinese who falling in trap of india
> 
> India successfully made its concessions in gathering 40+ countries in its support
> Against china
> 
> China playing lone wolf in this game its ramifications will have great impact


thats what is not getting into those singing praises of china as they are watching short term gains but foreting long term effects for them as china is too strong to have any adverse effects buts its there interests which will bear the brunt with USA and all those who backed indias NSG bid 



illusion8 said:


> What ties???


chinese exports to india


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## Dungeness

ito said:


> There is no such thing as China Killer in India's delivery system. You cannot blame India for some nomenclature given by some media person.



Lots of Chinese know that Indians tagged Agni-III as "China Specific" missile, and Agni-V as "China Killer", and we witnessed how you guys celebrated the success of "China Killer“ right here on PDF. Chinese don't really care which Indian came up with those tags, Indian media or Indian government, they are all Indian. Who else they are supposed to blame on, Pakistanis? 

You can tag your missile anything you want, but you reap what you sow, my friend.

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## Great Sachin

Today India banned several Chinese products in India...


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Kaniska said:


> To some extent I agree with you...Modi has lot of magic that Non Indian will ever realize it...At least it is better to try and fail rather than not trying anything...



But creating so much hype before actual result...Modi this or that.....and then getting failed is bound to bring you embarrassment. This is not something to chest thump about.


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## Beidou2020

cerberus said:


> Only mad is chinese who falling in trap of india
> 
> India successfully made its concessions in gathering 40+ countries in its support
> Against china
> 
> China playing lone wolf in this game its ramifications will have great impact



Like what?

You going to veto power China in the UNSC? 

Or ban Chinese investment into India?

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> *Lots of Chinese know that Indians tagged Agni-III as "China Specific" missile, and Agni-V as "China Killer", and we witnessed how you guys celebrated the success of "China Killer“ right here on PDF. *



Yesterday you said:



Dungeness said:


> *Actually, most Chinese except those who frequent defense forum don't really care about news about India that much*.



I wonder what you will say tomorrow

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## Tiqiu

Thanks for the tag @PaklovesTurkiye 
Since the start of this century, there had been many voices and discussion in China about how China developing ties with India. Till few years ago, before the CPEC, the consensus of China in relation to China/Pak/India relations was reached and will be firmly stayed, that is the development of China/India ties should not come at the expense of China/Pak ties.

IMO,China knows India may retaliate and create trouble for China should China further support and strengthen Pak position. But based on the calculation of how great can India be in terms of her political,economical and military capabilities in the future, China may have reached a conclusion that it can cope with it. Plus China has many weapon in its arsenal to make India very uncomfortable should India not remain neutral. With a hostile China, India can not remain high growth for many decades to come.

So when we come across any further development or issues concerning these 3 counties, we shall all bear this Chinese bottom line in our mind.

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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> Yesterday you said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what you will say tomorrow



It means there are lots of Chinese members in Chinese defense forums. Why you sound like you are confused?


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## neem456

Dungeness said:


> Lots of Chinese know that Indians tagged Agni-III as "China Specific" missile, and Agni-V as "China Killer", and we witnessed how you guys celebrated the success of "China Killer“ right here on PDF. Chinese don't really care which Indian came up with those tags, Indian media or Indian government, they are all Indian. Who else they are supposed to blame on, Pakistanis?
> 
> You can tag your missile anything you want, but you reap what you sow, my friend.



Never knew china killer tag scared/disturbed you that much. 



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> But creating so much hype before actual result...Modi this or that.....and then getting failed is bound to bring you embarrassment. This is not something to chest thump about.



By that logic 24th should had been national mourning day for you peeps, as your case was not even tabled.

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## Perpendicular

NDTV has learnt that despite China's strong opposition to India, the NSG has decided to meet again later this year to discuss the process for allowing non NPT signatories like India, into the group. Sources say the suggestion for another meeting came from Mexico and was opposed by China. But those objections were set aside.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-t...year-sources-1423518?pfrom=home-lateststories

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## Dungeness

neem456 said:


> Never knew china killer tag scared/disturbed you that much.



Not scared but disgusted. After all, we know some people are famous for big mouth, like superpower thingy, so we are not all that serious.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Tiqiu said:


> Thanks for the tag @PaklovesTurkiye
> Since the start of this century, there had been many voices and discussion in China about how China developing ties with India. Till few years ago, before the CPEC, the consensus of China in relation to China/Pak/India relations was reached and will be firmly stayed, that is the development of China/India ties should not come at the expense of China/Pak ties.
> 
> IMO,China knows India may retaliate and create trouble for China should China further support and strengthen Pak position. But based on the calculation of how great can India be in terms of her political,economical and military capabilities in the future, China may have reached a conclusion that it can cope with it. Plus China has many weapon in its arsenal to make India very uncomfortable should India not remain neutral. With a hostile China, India can not remain high growth for many decades to come.
> 
> So when we come across any further development or issues concerning these 3 counties, we shall all bear this Chinese bottom line in our mind.



Great ......Pakistan was always there for China and will remain so. Pakistan may be small but we have will, capacity and power to hold the hostile power at the bay. After completion of CPEC, we will shape the destiny of Asia together.

Two great civilizations....Yellow River and Indus valley.......working for Asia and world side by side, is surely a treat to watch.....

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## neem456

Great Sachin said:


> Today India banned several Chinese products in India...


Source ?


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## PaklovesTurkiye

neem456 said:


> By that logic 24th should had been national mourning day for you peeps, as your case was not even tabled.



Well.....we didn't danced and ran like a headless chicken all over the world and then same countries opposing India's bid who assured India of their support...

So no problem, our application will be considered in next meeting. In Sha Allah......We are optimistic and work under the radar and never create such hype just like you guys did......

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## Tiqiu

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Great ......Pakistan was always there for China and will remain so. Pakistan may be small but we have will, capacity and power to hold the hostile power at the bay. After completion of CPEC, we will shape the destiny of Asia together.
> 
> Two great civilizations....Yellow River and Indus valley.......working for Asia and world side by side, is surely a treat to watch.....


I hope CPEC will bring more exchange of normal people of two countries in the future. There are not many Chinese visited your country as not many Pak have visited ours. It is important for forging a strong ties if normal people understand each others more.

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## Mrc

this thread should be moved with tejas and Arjun threads...

and I am not even trolling....

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## [Bregs]

*India’s NSG attempt was well worth the risk*


India made a bid for membership in the Nuclear Suppliers Group this past week and failed. There has been a chorus of complaints as to why the Narendra Modi government decided to pour so much of its diplomatic energies, even to the point of tossing in the Prime Minister’s own reputation into the fray, into an effort whose outcome was so uncertain.

The answer, in a nutshell, is because the time has come for India to learn to take calculated risks to further its interests.

It was not as if New Delhi did not know that trying to secure membership in this restrictive technology club would be tricky. After all, this was a club whose very origins were anti-Indian, created after the country’s 1974 nuclear tests to punish India and prevent other countries from going down the same path. The diplomats from many of the NSG governments who handle nuclear issues were hostile, believing India got off lightly after the 1998 tests and didn’t deserve the sanctions waiver rammed through the NSG by the George W Bush administration. Indian officials involved in the NSG gave themselves a 60-40 chance of success.

Yet they went ahead and tried.

Indian diplomacy has generally been about playing it safe. Only do stuff that is more or less guaranteed to succeed. This means your strategic horizon shrinks to the area in front of your feet. Your successes are so small, that only Doordarshan will tout them. After six decades of independence, India can claim to have co-founded an anachronistic multilateral organisation of rapidly diminishing utility, the Non-Aligned Movement. After that, the country’s mark on the international system is hard to discern.

In the past, this caution made sense. India’s economy was worth $50 billion when the British left in 1947 and mostly known in foreign magazines as a place to get photographs of famine victims. The years India was not struggling with a balance of payments crisis were the exception. And the country’s international interests were limited to securing foreign aid, imports of subsidised PL480 grain and moralising speeches ignored by all and sundry.

The times have changed. With a two-trillion-dollar economy, globalised industries like pharmaceuticals and software, the perimeters India’s national interests are now smudge marks that blend with those of the rest of the world. Our security interests cover international terrorism, Indian Ocean lanes of communication and servers in central China. There is a new 21st century Indian diaspora built on technology. India has been forced out of its shell by its own successes.Not that such confidence is universally evident in the Modi government’s policies. Its trade policy, for example, is as timorous and fearful as it was 40 years ago.

The country must seek to influence the making of the rules that govern the world, or find its economy and security potentially compromised. Which is why it makes sense to try and get a seat at the high table of organisations like the NSG rather than being satisfied only with being passively accepted by their existing membership. There is always a difference between being allowed to use a restricted parking lot and being on the committee that decided who gets the parking stickers. In world affairs, multiply the impact by about a zillion.

The more complicated the diplomatic goal and the higher the target, the greater the chances of failure. Or to put it another way, when making decisions, the degree of risk is almost always a consequence of the degree of understanding. And nothing is hairier than international relations because of the multiplicity of players, numerous motives and overall opacity. Risk is inevitable because that’s the nature of the beast. Diplomacy minus risk is not diplomacy, it is guided tours and duty-free shopping.

What India has learnt in the past several years is that uncertainty is insufficient a reason for trying, so long as the prize is important enough.

Thus, India joined the Group of Four nations seeking permanent seats at the United Nations Security Council. The G-4 is moribund today, but just the experience led India to realise that among the four it had the strongest candidature. That New Delhi is now so far down an admittedly long and winding road to a permanent seat is, in large part, because it took a plunge into the deep end.

The India-US nuclear deal, for which political obituaries were written every few months, was the most striking example of New Delhi deciding to punch well beyond its weight. It was helped by an unusually supportive US administration. The point is that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh decided it was worth a gamble, and contrary to everyone’s expectations, the dice fell in India’s direction. The greatest benefit of that deal, arguably, was the self-confidence it gave the Indian system. India changed a deeply entrenched international regime in its favour. It taught New Delhi that with sufficient application, it can change global ground realities.

This hardly means a country should go around gate-crashing regimes, making arbitrary demands of governments or generally tossing itself into any conflict or conference that it feels it can get some advantage. Hence terms like “calculated risk” and “cost-benefit analysis”. If one wants to get technical and use the terminology of decision theory, risks are probable outcomes that can be calculated, uncertainties are ones that one cannot. If the latter are overwhelming, it makes more sense to stay in an armchair and contemplate the ceiling.

Arguably, Jawaharlal Nehru’s decisions on handling China in 1962 were based on a huge degree of ignorance of what Beijing was thinking, a huge mass of uncertainty. Indira Gandhi played a much more sensible game in 1971, working to isolate Pakistan and tilting the landscape in New Delhi’s favour until military intervention in Bangladesh was almost guaranteed victory.

As it is written in the Arthashastra, “Before you carry out an action, ask yourself three questions: Why am I doing it? What might be the results? Will I be successful? Only when you have thought deeply and found satisfactory answers to these questions, should you go ahead.” This advice still remains sound, thousands of years later. The work also warns against “fretting about the future” and focusing on what needs to be done in the present.

An all-encompassing fear of failure will translate into a fear of doing anything remotely innovative or forward thinking — the mindset that afflicts bureaucrats and clerks everywhere. Modi, buoyed by his remarkable domestic political strength, seems prepared to take calculated risks in diplomacy — without concern that this may cost him a few points in the opinion polls. This is a trait he seems to share with Indira Gandhi. More to the point, it is a trait that, once institutionalised, is almost a definition of what a great power is all about. Time for the India of today to dare to be different from the India of yesterday.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analy...th-the-risk/story-UYfHIw4pQK3NuN7Jii2vqK.html

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## neem456

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Well.....we didn't danced and ran like a headless chicken all over the world and then same countries opposing India's bid who assured India of their support...
> 
> So no problem, our application will be considered in next meeting. In Sha Allah......We are optimistic and work under the radar and never create such hype just like you guys did......





Hype create karne ke liye kuch substance toh hona chahiye.

What do you have that you can create hype about as far as this NSG club is concerned.

Neither you have waiver,
neither you have support of 47 nations as india do.
Neither you have concensus of NSG to poceed on to discuss the induction process till the end of year like india have.
You are not admitted into MCTR.
You have no hopes for Australia group and wassenar group.

Hain kya that you can create hype about. Trust me if you were in our boots, you would be celebrating EID every day for all this above.


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## grey boy 2

Great Sachin said:


> *Today India banned several Chinese products in India...*


Oh no, Indians "REVENGE" in full force, its shocking man
But wait, can you kindly provide your "SOURCE" please

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Tiqiu said:


> I hope CPEC will bring more exchange of normal people of two countries in the future. There are not many Chinese visited your country as not many Pak have visited ours. It is important for forging a strong ties if normal people understand each others more.



Exactly. Steps have been taken for people to people contacts but more should be done. After completion of CPEC and having good established trade links b/w China and Pakistan, people/traders will definitely travel and explore each side of country....That day is not far, friend. We will see it happening in just coming one or two decades.





neem456 said:


> Hype create karne ke liye kuch substance toh hona chahiye.
> 
> What do you have that you can create hype about as far as this NSG club is concerned.
> 
> Neither you have waiver,
> neither you have support of 47 nations as india do.
> Neither you have concensus of NSG to poceed on to discuss the induction process till the end of year like india have.
> You are not admitted into MCTR.
> You have no hopes for Australia group and wassenar group.
> 
> Hain kya that you can create hype about. Trust me if you were in our boots, you would be celebrating EID every day for all this above.



This was the exact same reason you are humiliated because of. Too much shout without any substance, You got NSG waiver due to idiot Zardari who withdrew objections on your deal with US......What do you think that we won't get what we want even if we don't have NSG waiver or membership......You didn't know China is supplying us what? Never heard of cooperation in nuclear reactors b/w Pakistan and China?

47 nations support????? Why don't you just shove it up right on Modi's and all bakhts' asses? This has been cleared so many times that you didn't have support from 47 nations. Even Russians, Mexicans, Swiss kicked your butt at the very last moment. Only 32 nations supported you mainly because of US....

Pakistan is not serious about MTCR just like we are in case of NSG. 

Australia and wassenar group? Did u join it yet? How do you know Pakistan is not eyeing those groups? I think you re not enough humiliated in this NSG saga otherwise you didn't have said like this.

Just because India gives importance to those groups doesn't mean Pakistan would do so. Pakistan has shown seriousness about NSG so far. You never know what comes next.......

Be very aware of us. You underestimate us and you'll end up having egg on your face just like in this NSG saga....You would never have thought your entry in NSG would be so difficult and so challenging.......

Truth is always stranger than fiction......

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## Mirza Jatt

neem456 said:


> Sources say the suggestion for another meeting came from Mexico and was opposed by China. But those objections were set aside.
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-t...on-in-nuke-club-nsg-this-year-sources-1423518

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## neem456

grey boy 2 said:


> Oh no, Indians "REVENGE" in full force, its shocking man
> But wait, can you kindly provide your "SOURCE" please


https://defence.pk/threads/modi-sta...of-milk-some-mobile-phones-from-china.436607/



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> This was the exact same reason you are humiliated because of. Too much shout without any substance, You got NSG waiver due to idiot Zardari who withdrew objections on your deal with US......What do you think that we won't get what we want even if we don't have NSG waiver or membership......You didn't know China is supplying us what? Never heard of cooperation in nuclear reactors b/w Pakistan and China?



You can keep your idiot zardari theory for your local consumption. No body take zardari or pakistan seriously in international arena let alone depriving india of waiver.

Once you are deprived of nuclear technology of france, usa, russia, japan, and fuel of australia, canada, all you had left was primitive technology of china.
Its not a privelege its lack of opportunity that you had to settle for chinese nukes.
You remind me of a jealous boy who is trying to flaunt a fake chinese copy of apple iphone infront of his friend who has original iphone.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> 47 nations support????? Why don't you just shove it up right on Modi's and all bakhts' asses? This has been cleared so many times that you didn't have support from 47 nations. Even Russians, Mexicans, Swiss kicked your butt at the very last moment. Only 32 nations supported you mainly because of US....
> 
> Pakistan is not serious about MTCR just like we are in case of NSG.
> Truth is always stranger than fiction......


Cleared by who ? Dawn news ? lol

First enhance your comprehension skills to understand the objection of other members and china. Noone really objected to the core idea of admission, except china.


PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Australia and wassenar group? Did u join it yet? How do you know Pakistan is not eyeing those groups? I think you re not enough humiliated in this NSG saga otherwise you didn't have said like this.
> Truth is always stranger than fiction......


Who is to stop us in these groups, there is no china. We will get there smoothly as MCTR, since no china in mctr as well.

Same cannot be said for pakistan, there are many opponents in both these groups as well which are present in group, where as for india its just china which is absent.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Just because India gives importance to those groups doesn't mean Pakistan would do so. Pakistan has shown seriousness about NSG so far. You never know what comes next.......
> Truth is always stranger than fiction......










PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Be very aware of us. You underestimate us and you'll end up having egg on your face just like in this NSG saga....You would never have thought your entry in NSG would be so difficult and so challenging.......
> 
> Truth is always stranger than fiction......



Under estimate you ? Dont flatter yourself, you are nothing.
We rightly estimate you and keep you in your place.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

neem456 said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/modi-sta...of-milk-some-mobile-phones-from-china.436607/
> 
> 
> 
> You can keep your idiot zardari theory for your local consumption. No body take zardari or pakistan seriously in international arena let alone depriving india of waiver.
> 
> Once you are deprived of nuclear technology of france, usa, russia, japan, and fuel of australia, canada, all you had left was primitive technology of china.
> Its not a privelege its lack of opportunity that you had to settle for chinese nukes.
> You remind me of a jealous boy who is trying to flaunt a fake chinese copy of apple iphone infront of his friend who has original iphone.
> 
> 
> Cleared by who ? Dawn news ? lol
> 
> First enhance your comprehension skills to understand the objection of other members and china. Noone really objected to the core idea of admission, except china.
> 
> Who is to stop us in these groups, there is no china. We will get there smoothly as MCTR, since no china in mctr as well.
> 
> Same cannot be said for pakistan, there are many opponents in both these groups as well which are present in group, where as for india its just china which is absent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under estimate you ? Dont flatter yourself, you are nothing.
> We rightly estimate you and keep you in your place.



That picture clearly illustrates India on NSG membership......... 

Pakistan has joined SCO and when Pakistan decides to join any organization, Pakistan goes for it. Chinese tech is enough to bring electricity in Pakistan and mushroom clouds over you. China is just sitting on your face....Don't you read the article and see how your journalist was crying? Forget about NSG and UNSC....you ain't becoming member soon.

Your own media has said only 32 members supported you, not 48.......dumb

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html

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## neem456

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> That picture clearly illustrates India on NSG membership.........
> 
> Pakistan has joined SCO and when Pakistan decides to join any organization, Pakistan goes for it. Chinese tech is enough to bring electricity in Pakistan and mushroom clouds over you. China is just sitting on your face....Don't you read the article and see how your journalist was crying? Forget about NSG and UNSC....you ain't becoming member soon.
> 
> Your own media has said only 32 members supported you, not 48.......dumb
> 
> http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html



That picture would had illustrated india if we were to give up on it, or faking as you do that "we were not serious" rhetoric. But dont worry we are not giving up on it and quest will continue.

SCO, Its irrelevant organisation, we dont even care. Russia asserted for it and we got in.
It could be the matter of celebration for you, not for us.

Again you are not resolved enough to understand the objection issue of NSG, so i wont spoon feed on it again.

And thats a blog source, any idiot can write articles on it. Even you can write.


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## grey boy 2

neem456 said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/modi-sta...of-milk-some-mobile-phones-from-china.436607/
> .



You can't be serious? did you actually read your so-called "SOURCE" ?
i suspect you're one of those "false flagger" who aimed to put Indians in shame
Thanks for the good laugh


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## graphican

Skillrex said:


> where... show me link.. show me source.. yesterday a member posted tweets from PM thanking russia for its support..



China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey are the countries that opposed India’s application.
Source: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...principle-pakistan-foreign-secretary-2876786/

Sorry for putting a shitty media as an evidence but hopefully you'd appreciate it as its from your own country.

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## Skillrex

graphican said:


> China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey are the countries that opposed India’s application.
> Source: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...principle-pakistan-foreign-secretary-2876786/
> 
> Sorry for putting a shitty media as an evidence but hopefully you'd appreciate it as its from your own country.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indias-NSG-bid-stops-at-China-wall/articleshow/52891969.cms 
here read this.. same shitty media.. and start your mental masturbation. btw did you got the recent news ?? US will push for indias nsg candidature again this year end.. and i would love to see how much pakistan scores.. i am sure 1- and 47.. complete opposite!!!

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## graphican

Skillrex said:


> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indias-NSG-bid-stops-at-China-wall/articleshow/52891969.cms
> here read this.. same shitty media.. and start your mental masturbation. btw did you got the recent news ?? US will push for indias nsg candidature again this year end.. and i would love to see how much pakistan scores.. i am sure 1- and 47.. complete opposite!!!



You guys are very welcome to do this masturbation thing with your own brains. We are enjoying watching you guys chase your own shadows and doing circus before China in frustration. Its your $hitty media about your own country and I value neither of those. Read your own media and have a good life.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

neem456 said:


> That picture would had illustrated india if we were to give up on it, or faking as you do that "we were not serious" rhetoric. But dont worry we are not giving up on it and quest will continue.
> 
> SCO, Its irrelevant organisation, we dont even care. Russia asserted for it and we got in.
> It could be the matter of celebration for you, not for us.
> 
> Again you are not resolved enough to understand the objection issue of NSG, so i wont spoon feed on it again.
> 
> And thats a blog source, any idiot can write articles on it. Even you can write.



Bakhts like u are the reason why Indians have been facing severe trolling for a week....I hope you'll provide us some very good entertainment in future too....


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## Mukunda Murthi Rao

*India confident on NSG entry, current hurdle ‘not a diplomatic failure’: MEA*

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-diplomatic-failure-mea-vikas-swarup-2877337/


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## My-Analogous

ito said:


> There is no such thing as China Killer in India's delivery system. You cannot blame India for some nomenclature given by some media person.



Say lie that that much that it will become true

http://www.ibtimes.com/india-preparing-test-‘china-killer’-nuclear-missile-438348
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-17784779
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...able-missile-dubbed-china-killer-7660965.html

And we know Indian still don't accept that and talk bullshits.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> That picture clearly illustrates India on NSG membership.........
> 
> Pakistan has joined SCO and when Pakistan decides to join any organization, Pakistan goes for it. Chinese tech is enough to bring electricity in Pakistan and mushroom clouds over you. China is just sitting on your face....Don't you read the article and see how your journalist was crying? Forget about NSG and UNSC....you ain't becoming member soon.
> 
> Your own media has said only 32 members supported you, not 48.......dumb
> 
> http://www.dailyo.in/politics/modi-government-nsg-india-china-ties-npt-seoul/story/1/11385.html


What Indian source. Ummmmm That's it. Now it is not reliable source any more. Reasons unknown and because i said so



graphican said:


> China, Russia, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey are the countries that opposed India’s application.
> Source: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...principle-pakistan-foreign-secretary-2876786/
> 
> Sorry for putting a shitty media as an evidence but hopefully you'd appreciate it as its from your own country.



Oh shit another unreliable source. please don't ask me define unreliable



Mukunda Murthi Rao said:


> *India confident on NSG entry, current hurdle ‘not a diplomatic failure’: MEA*
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-diplomatic-failure-mea-vikas-swarup-2877337/



This one is reliable source and above one is not

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## Echo_419

Syama Ayas said:


> As I have stated earlier some cognitive inertia are hard to change and delusions are their much needed reality.
> 
> 
> To say that China has any control on a "Made in China" product of a non-Chinese company is as retarded as saying
> saying that an Indian company built software for major like Microsoft or Google, the Indian company gets to decides where this built product can be exported to.
> 
> The only advantage China enjoys in this case is propagating a supply chain cyber attack.
> 
> Funny and hilarious that these people mention replacing Chinese electronics is not possible for India.
> 
> When already India imports more than half of its $33 billion electronic imports from nations other than China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_china_exports.html
> 
> But for the sake of intellectual sensitivities of Chinese members here lets just pretend entire $235 billion Indian imports is from China.
> Even a single "Made in China" product not being exported from China to India will lead to economic collapse of India.



You should rename yourself to Bubble buster

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## Great Sachin

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10157155739250311


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## AMCA

graphican said:


> So why do you think China is opposing Indian position in NSG? Turks are pro-Pakistan, now what is making China and even Russia go against India?



It's plain logic. Though they by now know that India's entry is imminent, they want to create an environment favourable to Pakistan by delaying until a loophole is found. Russia is never against India for your kind information.


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## indushek

Similar expressions were given before nuclear waiver received, its just a matter of time.

@irfan Balcoh: Really i mean u of all saying justice served? when did this world play fair?

Everybody knows stalling can work only for some time

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## Chinese-Dragon

Tamilnadu said:


> *The only concession you will get after India getting support of all the other members is to let China back out of its stand gracefully and not to be seen as gave in under the pressure of isolation,or become alone.*



Wow, thanks for letting us back out of our stand gracefully, instead of looking like we gave in under the pressure of isolation. 

That was really kind of you to do that.

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## dadeechi

Irfan Baloch said:


> this makes sense
> I mean a country that was the cause of making this organisation to prevent unlawful use of nuclear material for military use. refuses to sign NPT .. wants to be part of the exclusive club through force and intimidation just because America needs it against China. for once the justice prevailed and best part is that it was not just China that opposed its induction but other countries too.



All the minutes of the meetings of NSG are strictly confidential. NSG only releases a prepared public statement after NSG plenary meeting. All this talk of how many countries opposed India's application is just propaganda. All we know is that except China no country has publically raised any objections.


*PLENARY MEETING OF THE NUCLEAR SUPPLIERS GROUP *

_*SEOUL, REPUBLIC OF KOREA, 23–24 JUNE 2016*_

The twenty-sixth Plenary Meeting of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), chaired by Ambassador Song Young-wan of the Republic of Korea, was held in Seoul, Korea, on 23 and 24 June 2016.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Korea, H.E. Yun Byung-se, welcomed the Participating Governments on behalf of the Korean Government, reaffirmed his country’s strong support for NSG activities and noted the significant contribution of the NSG to global efforts to counter ever evolving nuclear threats, thus substantially reinforcing the spirit and purposes of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). The Foreign Minister also highlighted the importance of the thorough implementation of UNSCR 2270(2016) for the resolution of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) nuclear issue and asked the NSG to continue its efforts to cut off the DPRK’s access to its nuclear program’s supply chain.

Within the framework of the NSG’s mandate, the Group expressed its concerns regarding continued global proliferation activities and reaffirmed its determination to continue to cooperate closely in order to deter, hinder and prevent the transfer of controlled items or technology that could contribute to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. Participating Governments reiterated their firm support for the full, complete and effective implementation of the NPT as thecornerstone of the international non-proliferation regime.

Deploring the nuclear test conducted on 6 January 2016 by the DPRK, the Participating Governments reconfirmed their commitment to UNSCRs 1718 (2006), 1874 (2009), 2087 (2013), 2094 (2013) and 2270 (2016) which strongly condemned the DPRK’s challenge to the nuclear non-proliferation regime and underlined that export of all controlled items within the NSG to the DPRK is prohibited according to the abovementioned resolutions.

The NSG welcomed the announcement on 16 January 2016 of the Implementation Day of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). Following up on the Extraordinary Plenary held on 21 January and 26 April this year, the NSG expressed interest in continuing to be briefed by the Procurement Working Group coordinator on the procurement channel established under the JCPOA and UNSCR 2231 (2015) as appropriate. The NSG agreed to keep this under active consideration.

Participating Governments called upon all States to exercise vigilance and to ensure effective implementation of all UNSCRsrelevant to the work and purposes of the NSG.

*The NSG had discussions on the issue of “Technical, Legal and Political Aspects of the Participation of non-NPT States in the NSG” and decided to continue its discussion.*

At the Plenary meeting, the NSG also

• maintained its focus on technical issues important to the implementation of the Control Lists by exchanging views and agreeing on a number of proposals to clarify and update the NSG Control Lists and Guidelines;

• discussed and reaffirmed

• the importance of balancing confidentiality withtransparency in NSG activities; and

• the significance of updating the NSG Guidelines to keep pace with the evolving global security landscape and a fast-paced nuclear and nuclear-related industry.

*Outreach*

• welcomed the growing number of States that have harmonized their national export control systems with the NSG Guidelines and Control lists;

• discussed options for enhancing outreach such as

• dedicated briefings for and meetings with interested non-NSG partners on the work of the Group;

• increased visibility of the NSG at appropriate international meetings to improve public awareness about the work and mission of the Group; and

• a dedicated response to non-NSG partners seeking assistance and practical experience in developing, updating, strengthening and implementing national export control systems; and

• shared information on all aspects of the 2008 Statement on Civil Nuclear Cooperation with India and discussed the NSG relationship with India


http://www.thehindu.com/news/resources/public-statement-after-nsg-plenary-meeting/article8768692.ece


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## Tamilnadu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wow, thanks for letting us back out of our stand gracefully, instead of looking like we gave in under the pressure of isolation.
> 
> That was really kind of you to do that.


US played it very well,they made sure everyone else supported or atleast did not have problem with India joining,apart from china,china was forced to come in the open to block Indian entry.Unlike all these years we will work with India and has no problem with Indian rise...now what you played your cards,much before this NsG vote,Govt of India has made a statement where the minister said we will be hopefully in the group by dec 2016,so we know what was coming and we know where we are heading.
Thats the reason you see now other countries in NSG working to bring India to NSG by year end..it exactly went as per US script,with out any issues they showed the real china to India...and china did all this for what ,even the chinese dint know.

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## grey boy 2

Indians really got talents, the way they able to raise their "Feels Good Fantasy" to the highest level is unbelievable
Twisting a complete NSG bid "FAILURE" to a so-called "BIG SUCCESS" is simply beyond imagination
Anyway; the same old words, all the best to my dear Indian friends NSG ride for years to come

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## neem456

grey boy 2 said:


> Indians really got talents, the way they able to raise their "Feels Good Fantasy" to the highest level is unbelievable
> Twisting a complete NSG bid "FAILURE" to a so-called "BIG SUCCESS" is simply beyond imagination
> Anyway; the same old words, all the best to my dear Indian friends NSG ride for years to come



Its a setback, not a failure.

And the game US played in all this is beyond the reach of chinese administration. They successfully unveiled the chinese face. All these year of rhetoric of china of supporting peaceful rise of india was kicked boxed by US successfully without even uttering a word directly to china.
China willingly walked into the trap of USA, and to their whim postured against india so openly.
All USA wanted to see china and india posturing against each other and they were successful.

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## Great Sachin

grey boy 2 said:


> Indians really got talents, the way they able to raise their "Feels Good Fantasy" to the highest level is unbelievable
> Twisting a complete NSG bid "FAILURE" to a so-called "BIG SUCCESS" is simply beyond imagination
> Anyway; the same old words, all the best to my dear Indian friends NSG ride for years to come


FYI...India already has all the privileges of NSG....more than 40 country supported India....we don't take it as failure...we will try again...


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## Finer

Arrogant has killed India big time. India cannot enter without Pakistan. India has to accept Pakistan is here to stay, and should support it.

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## Tiqiu

grey boy 2 said:


> Oh no, Indians "REVENGE" in full force, its shocking man
> But wait, can you kindly provide your "SOURCE" please


Sounds very scary man. Many Indian traders at Chinese YIWU small goods market will lose some cigarette lighter business from India
http://www.infodriveindia.com/india-import-data/cigarette-import-data.aspx


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## rcrmj

Great Sachin said:


> FYI...India already has all the privileges of NSG....more than 40 country supported India....we don't take it as failure...we will try again...


you have just proved Grey Boy 2 is right about you lot vividly`
``````indians

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## Great Sachin

rcrmj said:


> you have just proved Grey Boy 2 is right about you lot vividly`
> ``````indians


chinese ...superiority complex


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## zebra7

Irfan Baloch said:


> this makes sense
> I mean a country that was the cause of making this organisation to prevent unlawful use of nuclear material for military use. refuses to sign NPT .. wants to be part of the exclusive club through force and intimidation just because America needs it against China. for once the justice prevailed and best part is that it was not just China that opposed its induction but other countries too.



Small change Sir Jee -- Indian reluctance for not signing NPT because India don't feel it is not fair and is flawed, because it allow only 5 nations to be recognised as Nuclear Power What is even funnier and important to note that this treaty was formalized in 1968. Any state which was reported to have done detonation before that were recognized as nuclear-weapon state.. We are not ready to sign NPT in its present form because we feel either all countries including the 5 Nuclear power state should be denuclearized, or give the equal right to develop nuclear tech for peaceful purpose.

But Pakistani argument is -- Because India haven't sign it otherwise it is ready to sign. LOLZ

Now for the NSG -- If America needs India against China, therefore India is blackmailing USA for the NSG membership, then India already have the weiver it needed. First, most of the countries are supporting India. Second this is not the end of the Indian NSG entry, rather in DEC in next meat, the decission for the entry of the NPT non signatory would be discussed.

Looking at the excitement of the Pakistani members in PDF and may be in the general public, I pity on them because opposing Indian entry, they are actually creating problem for their own entry. If India would gets entry in NSG, then their own case of entry in this club would be much stronger, and won't need to sign NPT. However to have to work for their merit indivisually.

And what is forcefully is the demand of the China, to include Pakistan with India, that means, Pakistan would need only the approval of China alone, and not all 48 members.


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## thesolar65

*At the NSG plenary, China behaved not as an enlightened power but as a strategic small-timer*

What happened at the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) plenary in Seoul? Much misinformation (even disinformation) is floating around New Delhi and for three reasons. First, the issues are complex and require context, which many may not have. Second, the political opposition to BJP is understandably using the occasion to target the Narendra Modi government and making partial assessments. Third, the Chinese propaganda mechanism has turned much more sophisticated in an intelligent and selective briefing of Indian media. This presents a challenge for India, but that is getting ahead of the story.

The thread begins in 2008, with India winning the waiver from the NSG to undertake nuclear commerce despite being a nuclear power outside the ambit of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). The next logical step was for India to apply for membership to four high-tech export-control regimes: the NSG, the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the Wassenaar Arrangement (conventional arms, dual-use tech) and the Australia Group (chemical-biological weapons).




Illustration by Uday Deb

Of these the NSG was a priority. The Group works on consensus. It had given India a waiver in 2008 but could in theory revoke the waiver or change its terms. If India was in the Group it could veto any change that would harm India, Teflon-coat the 2008 waiver and additionally contribute to the global nuclear regime. In 2010, President Barack Obama visited and promised support for Indian entry to the NSG and the other treaties.

Astonishingly, the UPA government did not apply. It made a noise, but nothing more. Its nuclear liability law, which had problems that were eventually sorted out by the Modi government in 2015, may have deterred it. The liability law had made the 2008 waiver infructuous and nuclear commerce with India near impossible.

India applied to the MTCR in 2015. After a setback it got in, on the second attempt, in 2016. In May 2016, it applied for NSG membership for the first time. By June most of the countries (about 40 of 48) were willing to take it in straightaway, no questions asked. This was a significant diplomatic achievement over two months.

Why did India apply now? A sympathetic American president is ending his term. His successor may be preoccupied at the time of the next NSG plenary in 2017. In 2018, India will be in election mode and the Modi government may have less leverage. As such, it was 2016 – or it was a kick down the road.

In Seoul the NSG delegates met on June 23. China insisted India’s application would not be discussed. Late in the day it agreed to the application being included in the agenda on the condition that no decision on the application would be taken in the 2016 NSG plenary. At this stage, the Indian delegation in Seoul knew immediate success was not possible. Barring a miracle that got the Chinese to change their minds, India would have to come away from Seoul with an “application filed”, not an “application approved”.

From then on, all discussion in Seoul was theoretical. Every country knew a decision on India was not happening this time. As the conversation continued, the Group broke into four:


China opposed India full stop. It said India could join only if it signed the NPT
About 40 countries said admit India at once
Brazil, Mexico and Switzerland wanted two parallel announcements: India’s entry and a criteria for membership, which would mirror India’s nuclear record. It was understood no other country at present met those possible criteria
New Zealand and Ireland wanted the criteria for membership to come first and then an announcement that India was meeting those criteria. They too understood no other country at present met those possible criteria.
South Africa oscillated between positions three and four. Turkey remained neutral. Nobody other than China said it didn’t want India or opposed India. Nobody, not even China, brought up Pakistan. It was recognised that since China had vetoed a decision on the Indian application this had become a normal diplomatic confab, not a decisive discussion.

The word “criteria” has been used more than once. What was the nub of “criteria”? It was not that an applicant should necessarily be a signatory to the NPT. It was that an applicant must adhere and commit to the spirit of the NPT. The 2008 NSG waiver explicitly stated India was part of the “widest possible implementation of the provisions and objectives” of the NPT. As such, 47 of 48 countries were fine with India not signing the NPT and validated India, with its impeccable non-proliferation history, as being NPT compatible.

What next? The application is before the NSG. There is a renewed effort to have a special plenary decide on it in 2016 itself. That may or may not happen, but the NSG cannot defer the decision indefinitely. More critically, China has shown its hand. Unlike 2008 much of the diplomatic legwork was done by India, and not the US. In any case the US has less influence on China than it did eight years ago.

It’s down to a shootout between New Delhi and Beijing. China is behaving not as an enlightened power but as a strategic small-timer, with the petty, perfidious and short-termist mindset of a Pyongyang dictator or a Rawalpindi general. India is honour-bound to send it a tough message. There is no option.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatime...ghtened-power-but-as-a-strategic-small-timer/

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## grey boy 2

A blog? YAWN


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## Tea addict



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## CHD

COMMENT (3) · PRINT · T T 
diplomacy[/paste:font]
*India-China*
*international relations*
*Says ‘nationalists’ in India are yet to develop a mindset befitting the citizenry of a ‘major power’*

At least 10 countries opposed India’s bid to join the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), an editorial in China’s state-run "Global Times" on Tuesday said. It rejected accusations in India that Beijing was solely responsible for quashing New Delhi’s bid to join the 48-member nuclear club.

“The NSG had a plenary meeting in Seoul last week, and all members participated in a special conference on Thursday evening about the accession of non-participants of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) into the NSG. At least 10 countries, including China, opposed their bid,” said the edit.

The daily stressed that lack of India’s membership of the NPT — the cornerstone of NSG membership — was the chief obstacle in New Delhi’s path to becoming a member of the nuclear club.

“Since its foundation in 1975, all NSG members shall be NPT signatories. This has become the primary principle of the organisation. Now India wants to be the first exception to join the NSG without signing the NPT. It is morally legitimate for China and other members to upset India's proposal in defense of principles,” it said.

The write-up attributed mainstream India’s sharp reaction to the rejection of New Delhi’s membership application in Seoul to the sustained “adulation” of India by the western powers. It said, “Recent years have seen the Western world giving too many thumbs up to India, but thumbs down to China. India is spoiled. Although the South Asian country's GDP accounts for only 20 per cent of that of China, it is still a golden boy in the eyes of the West, having a competitive edge and more potential compared to China. The international ‘adulation’ of India makes the country a bit smug in international affairs.”

*‘The U.S. is not the whole world’*

It observed that India had “ignored” that the United States, which has supported New Delhi NSG bid, was not in a position to commandeer the global agenda. “[The] U.S. backing adds the biggest impetus to India's ambition. By cozying up to India, Washington's India policy actually serves the purpose of containing China.”

Highlighting the limitations of Washington’s powers, the daily said: “The U.S. is not the whole world. Its endorsement does not mean India has won the backing of the world. This basic fact, however, has been ignored by India”.

The editorial made two additional points. First it stressed that “nationalists” in India were yet to develop a mindset befitting the citizenry of a “major power.”

“Some Indians are too self-centred and self-righteous. On the contrary, the Indian government behaves decently and is willing to communicate. Throwing a tantrum won't be an option for New Delhi. India's nationalists should learn how to behave themselves. Now that they wish their country could be a major power, they should know how major powers play their games,” it said.

Second, the write-up contrasted the response by a section of people in India to the popular reaction in China, to Beijing’s inability to become a member of the Missile Technology Control Regime. “On Monday, the Missile Technology Control Regime absorbed India as a new member, and denied China's access. The news didn't even make a ripple among the Chinese public. The Chinese have become more mature in dealing with these setbacks caused by international relations.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...ays-global-times-editorial/article8783383.ece

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## Akasa

Haven't read too much into the issue, but as I understand it, the principle upon which at least three of the listed nations (China, New Zealand, South Africa) opposed India's entry was that it was not a NPT or CTBT member. Granted, the underlying intentions likely run deeper and along the lines of India's pro-US stance (especially with Modi's government) and a tit-for-tat for Beijing's rejection from the MTCR.


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## kasper95

in the whole op I saw only China , did they feel 0 has no value and put that after 1.


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## chanikya

Its just for internal consumption or in other words for its internal audience

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## kasper95

SinoSoldier said:


> Haven't read too much into the issue, but as I understand it, the principle upon which at least three of the listed nations (China, New Zealand, South Africa) opposed India's entry was that it was not a NPT or CTBT member. Granted, the underlying intentions likely run deeper and along the lines of India's pro-US stance (especially with Modi's government) and a tit-for-tat for Beijing's rejection from the MTCR.


India was not pro US, if India becomes pro US its chinas mistake.China has been helping Pakistan with NW and missile tech.I am sure you won't treat us as friends if we did the same with China by helping Vietnam to get NW and missile tech.


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## Dungeness

In stunning contrast to Indian members' reaction to failed big for NSG membership, the rejection of China's bid for MTCR membership did not even raise eyebrow for Chinese members on PDF. There are two sets of national psychology at display.

What's the big deal? In PRC's 67 years existence, we have been through all kinds of sanctions, embargoes, export restrictions, so we are used to it. If we can't buy them, we make them! Just look where China and India stand in the world today.

Here is a list of what China has accomplished in the month of June, 2016

- The fastest supercomputer (Sunway-TaihuLight) and second fastest supercomputer (Tianhe-2);
- CZ-7 "green" rocket successful debut launch with 7 payloads weighting 12T;
- ARJ21 enter into commercial flight service;
- Y-20 enter into active military service;
- Heavy-ion medical accelerator ready for clinical trials,
- new highways, expressways, tunnels, HSR lines, metro lines,
- Gaofen-4, GEO spy satellite with highest resolution officially enter into active service;
- Midea Offers to Buy Kuka AG;
- AIIB has made its first loans;
- first embedded neural network processing unit;
- 4G users exceed 500 million;
- one of the biggest heavy-lift ship,
- Aperture Spherical Telescope "FAST" almost complete,
- World's biggest 70-ton vibration-simulation table,
- Chinese scientists find the existence of the Majorana fermion particle, the first in the world;
- Announcement of the world's fist Cold Atomic Clock to be placed in space in coming month,
........

The Tortoise is not going anywhere by whining, because the Hare doesn't even blink. @ahojunk

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## ito

Dungeness said:


> In stunning contrast to Indian members' reaction to failed big for NSG membership, the rejection of China's bid for MTCR membership did not even raise eyebrow for Chinese members on PDF. There are two sets of national psychology at display.
> 
> What's the big deal? In PRC's 67 years existence, we have been through all kinds of sanctions, embargoes, export restrictions, so we are used to it. If we can't buy them, we make them! Just look where China and India stand in the world today.
> 
> Here is a list of what China has accomplished in the month of June, 2016
> 
> - The fastest supercomputer (Sunway-TaihuLight) and second fastest supercomputer (Tianhe-2);
> - CZ-7 successful rocket debut launch with 7 payloads weighting 12T;
> - ARJ21 enter into commercial flight service;
> - Y-20 enter into active military service;
> - Heavy-ion medical accelerator ready for clinical trials,
> - new highways, expressways, tunnels, HSR lines, metro lines,
> - Gaofen-4, GEO spy satellite with highest resolution officially enter into active service;
> - Midea Offers to Buy Kuka AG;
> - AIIB has made its first loans;
> - first embedded neural network processing unit;
> - 4G users exceed 500 million;
> - one of the biggest heavy-lift ship,
> - Aperture Spherical Telescope "FAST" almost complete,
> - World's biggest 70-ton vibration-simulation table,
> - Chinese scientists find the existence of the Majorana fermion particle, the first in the world;
> - Announcement of the world's fist Cold Atomic Clock to be placed in space in coming month,
> ........
> 
> The Tortoise is not going anywhere by whining, because the Hare doesn't even blink.



You could not have written that 20 years ago. Can you?

Things change. In case of India things can change even faster. India has the manpower, industrial base, technology capability and ambition to catch up with China. I guess with India growing faster than China, the Tortoise and Hare story is not anymore apt.

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## Srinivas

China's mouth piece, the fact that 47 countries are in favor of India's membership itself is a good scenario for India to proceed further to the membership.


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## Dungeness

ito said:


> You could not have written that 20 years ago. Can you?
> 
> Things change. In case of India things can change even faster. India has the manpower, industrial base, technology capability and ambition to catch up with China. I guess with India growing faster than China, the Tortoise and Hare story is not anymore apt.



True, but what counts is the national psychology. Being a darling of both camps in the past, and the counterweight to China today, India has long been spoiled.


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## ito

Dungeness said:


> True, but what counts is the national psychology. Being a darling of both camps in the past, and the counterweight to China today, India has long been spoiled.



There is no denying that one of reasons why west courts India today is Chinese factor, but there are more important reasons: growing economy, a billion plus market place, source of skilled manpower, stable democratic institutions and convergence of strategic interests. People conveniently forget these more important factors and only focus on Chinese factor.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

ito said:


> You could not have written that 20 years ago. Can you?
> 
> Things change. In case of India things can change even faster. India has the manpower, industrial base, technology capability and ambition to catch up with China. I guess with India growing faster than China, the Tortoise and Hare story is not anymore apt.



A very bold move of Chinese media to even mention the MCTR part.

Considering the Chinese media had blacked out on India's NSG waiver's consequences to China and also Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying blunder statement on India's NSG membership would not be discussed in Seoul meet.

I guess in this day a news so big can find its was to Chinese citizens no matter how much China tries to control.


----------



## ito

Syama Ayas said:


> A very bold move of Chinese media to even mention the MCTR part.
> 
> Considering the Chinese media had blacked out on India's NSG waiver's consequences to China and also Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying blunder statement on India's NSG membership would not be discussed in Seoul meet.
> 
> I guess in this day a news so big can find its was to Chinese citizens no matter how much China tries to control.



I guess this is just the start. I expect more skirmishes between India and China as India's economy grows. NSG for India is not about technology that it already gets from 2008 waiver, it is about its ambitions to be a player at international space. That is why China was so vocal about India's inclusion. Now India will oppose Chinese inclusion into MCTR.


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## Dungeness

ito said:


> There is no denying that one of reasons why west courts India today is Chinese factor, but there are more important reasons: growing economy, a billion plus market place, source of skilled manpower, stable democratic institutions and convergence of strategic interests. People conveniently forget these more important factors and only focus on Chinese factor.



What I was referring to is not about market and economy. It is about the sprite that China has her biggest advantage over India, thanks in part to Mao's brutal revolution that completely transformed Chinese society.



ito said:


> I guess this is just the start. I expect more skirmishes between India and China as India's economy grows. NSG for India is not about technology that it already gets from 2008 waiver, it is about its ambitions to be a player at international space. That is why China was so vocal about India's inclusion.* Now India will oppose Chinese inclusion into MCTR.*




You will never see the furious emotion outburst that we just witnessed in the last few days from Chinese.

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## ito

Dungeness said:


> What I was referring to is not about market and economy. It is about the sprite that China has her biggest advantage over India, thanks in part to Mao's brutal revolution that completely transformed Chinese society.
> 
> You will never see the furious emotion outburst that we just witnessed in the last few days from Chinese.



Indians are bit emotional than Chinese, may be that is the reason.

In spite of the competition, India needs China as much as China needs India. There are lot of areas where we can cooperate. And as two largest countries on earth there are areas where we have no other option but to compete.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> In stunning contrast to Indian members' reaction to failed big for NSG membership, the rejection of China's bid for MTCR membership did not even raise eyebrow for Chinese members on PDF. There are two sets of national psychology at display.
> 
> What's the big deal? In PRC's 67 years existence, we have been through all kinds of sanctions, embargoes, export restrictions, so we are used to it. If we can't buy them, we make them! Just look where China and India stand in the world today.
> 
> Here is a list of what China has accomplished in the month of June, 2016
> 
> - The fastest supercomputer (Sunway-TaihuLight) and second fastest supercomputer (Tianhe-2);
> - CZ-7 "green" rocket successful debut launch with 7 payloads weighting 12T;
> - ARJ21 enter into commercial flight service;
> - Y-20 enter into active military service;
> - Heavy-ion medical accelerator ready for clinical trials,
> - new highways, expressways, tunnels, HSR lines, metro lines,
> - Gaofen-4, GEO spy satellite with highest resolution officially enter into active service;
> - Midea Offers to Buy Kuka AG;
> - AIIB has made its first loans;
> - first embedded neural network processing unit;
> - 4G users exceed 500 million;
> - one of the biggest heavy-lift ship,
> - Aperture Spherical Telescope "FAST" almost complete,
> - World's biggest 70-ton vibration-simulation table,
> - Chinese scientists find the existence of the Majorana fermion particle, the first in the world;
> - Announcement of the world's fist Cold Atomic Clock to be placed in space in coming month,
> ........
> 
> The Tortoise is not going anywhere by whining, because the Hare doesn't even blink. @ahojunk


Seems like we have the first casualty of India's MCTR membership 

Classic sour grapes syndrome.

The "Hare" can claw and beg on the MCTR door all its likes, its not getting in anytime soon, even with the "Tortoise's" approval


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## phancong

China stick to both the US and India as the same time, China won't accept US broke her own rule to bend backward for India membership in NSG by India not a NPT signatories, India can't a NSG member as a new member exception to the rule required by all members in the club.

India totally depend on China not to veto India NSG membership admission, China won't allow India cozy up to US to contain China as the same time ask China to bend over for India to join the NSG group.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

phancong said:


> China stick to both the US and India as the same time, China won't accept US broke her own rule to bend backward for India membership in NSG by India not a NPT signatories, India can't a NSG member as a new member exception to the rule required by all members in the club.


But China already "bend backward" for India and US by accepting India's NSG waiver allowing India to have greater nuclear weapons stockpile to attack China.

Guess China has a conscience.


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## rcrmj

Srinivas said:


> China's mouth piece, the fact that 47 countries are in favor of India's membership itself is a good scenario for India to proceed further to the membership.


the fact is, you primitive India is just a piece of card played and threw by US and others````your NSG drama is just a power play between U.S and China, has nothing to do with your appetite nor qualification to join the club, as simple as that

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## phancong

Syama Ayas said:


> But China already "bend backward" for India and US by accepting India's NSG waiver allowing India to have greater nuclear weapons stockpile to attack China.
> 
> Guess China has a conscience.




What would India rather have the NSG membership or the NSG waiver? For China to block India NSG waiver not worth the effort that didn't ment China bend over for India. China just not bend the rule for India to be a member in the same NSG group with China as one of the NSG member

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## Nan Yang

India spoiled, rules alone blocked its NSG entry: Chinese media 

Defending China's opposition to India's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) as "morally legitimate", a state-run daily Tuesday hit out at India saying the West has "spoiled" the country making it a "bit smug" in international affairs. 
In a hard hitting editorial, Global Times said it was rules, not China, that prevented India's entry into the 48-nation elite nuclear trading body. 
It said at least 10 countries, including China, opposed the accession of non-signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) into the NSG. 
"...India wants to be the first exception to join the NSG without signing the NPT. It is morally legitimate for China and other members to upset India's proposal in defence of principles," said the tabloid, part of the ruling Communist Party of China's publications. 
The daily, known for its nationalistic postures, said India is emerging as the "golden boy" of the West. 
"Recent years have seen the Western world giving too many thumbs-up to India, but thumbs-down to China. India is spoiled. Although the South Asian country's GDP accounts for only 20% of that of China, it is still a golden boy in the eyes of the West, having a competitive edge and more potential compared to China. The international 'adulation' of India makes the country a bit smug in international affairs," it said. 
Criticising Indian media and public reaction on India's failed NSG bid, it, however, said the Indian government has behaved "decently." 
"Some Indians are too self-centered and self-righteous. On the contrary, the Indian government behaves decently and is willing to communicate. Throwing a tantrum won't be an option for New Delhi," it said. 
"India's nationalists should learn how to behave themselves. Now that they wish their country could be a major power, they should know how major powers play their games," the daily said. 
Taking exception to the US' support to India for NSG entry, the editorial said, "US backing adds the biggest impetus to India's ambition. By cozying up to India, Washington's India policy actually serves the purpose of containing China." 
"The US is not the whole world. Its endorsement does not mean India has won the backing of the world. This basic fact, however, has been ignored by India," it said. 

http://atimes.com/2016/06/west-spoiled-india-says-china-defending-stand-on-delhis-nsg-bid/

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## neem456

Chinese media is on the self explanatory mode. 
Every other newspaper of theirs is coming with the explanation, why are they so scared ?
You believe in your position, stick to it, no need to explain. India will take whatever meaning they want to.

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## CorporateAffairs

Look who's talking

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## jung41




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## Panther421

Chinese media doesn't need to act like our worthless media.. Don't go down to that level.. We are aware of what had happened..


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## SrNair

Well according to our Chinese members in here this shouldnt be a subject in Chinese media .Not at all .
Then why should they hell bent in proving their case .
They should avoid this .

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## dray

Nan Yang said:


> "morally legitimate"



China with its tainted records in missile and nuclear technology proliferation is now lecturing us about "Moral legitimacy", what the world has come to!!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rain Man said:


> China with its tainted records in missile and nuclear technology proliferation is now lecturing us about "Moral legitimacy", what the world has come to!!



false claim and China is wrongfully accused

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## greenwood

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> false claim and China is wrongfully accused


 
Inidan burn our national flag you know, this hehavior is considered impious to China's honour.

Our national flag could be burned in a war, but can't be burned by a ruffian idiot.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

greenwood said:


> Inidan burn our national flag you know, this hehavior is considered impious to China's honour.
> 
> Our national flag could be burned in a war, but can't be burned by a ruffian idiot.
> View attachment 314522



What else you expect from these Indians, let them vent their anger on our flag if that can comfort them..LMAO

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## greenwood

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> What else you expect from these Indians, let them vent their anger on our flag if that can comfort them..LMAO


 
why let them vent their anger on our flag? They should burn their own leader and their own national flag to comfort themself.

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## dray

greenwood said:


> Inidan burn our national flag you know, this hehavior is considered impious to China's honour.
> 
> Our national flag could be burned in a war, but can't be burned by a ruffian idiot.
> View attachment 314522



That's probably our Tibetan brothers, their whole country was snatched from them, and you are talking about a flag!

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## greenwood

Rain Man said:


> That's probably our Tibetan brothers, their whole country was snatched from them, and you are talking about a flag!


 
Tibetan is your brother? 
Last time I check Muslim is actually your brother in Moghol empire and some time before that.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rain Man said:


> That's probably our Tibetan brothers, their whole country was snatched from them, and you are talking about a flag!



LMAO, go ask Winston Churchill how you people snatch other people's land such Nagaland, Mizoram, Manipur, Meghalaya, Tripura, Hyderabad, parts of Himachal, Goa, Sikkim, Ladakh

according to him India is merely a geographical expression. It is no more a single country than the Equator.

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## Dungeness

Rain Man said:


> That's probably our Tibetan brothers, their whole country was snatched from them, and you are talking about a flag!



They don't look like Tibetans to me:







They burn their own people too:







It is not a BIG DEAL, what else they can do?

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## dray

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> according to him India is merely a geographical expression. It is no more a single country than the Equator.



Sad to inform you that we don't give two hoots to what Churchill thinks.

Btw, we will get the NSG membership by the end of this year, just wait and watch.

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## Tamilnadu

Dungeness said:


> They don't look like Tibetans to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They burn their own people too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a BIG DEAL, what else they can do?


Its called protest bro,i can understand why you cant comprehend .

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## oprih

Rain Man said:


> That's probably our Tibetan brothers, their whole country was snatched from them, and you are talking about a flag!


Poor tibetans, don't worry arunachal will be next.

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## Dungeness

Rain Man said:


> Sad to inform you that we don't give two hoots to what Churchill thinks.
> 
> Btw, we will get the NSG membership by the end of this year, just wait and watch.




Here is one of those "WE WILLs" from the past:



"Saturday, January 17, 2009 : 1850 Hrs Hindu

Chennai, Jan 17 (PTI) ISRO has begun working on the Rs 425-crore second unmanned moon mission to be launched by early 2012 following the success of Chandrayaan-I, a top ISRO official said here on Saturday. 

Chandrayaan-II will focus on soil and mineral exploration on the lunar surface with the help of a robotic device and send back data, Chandrayaan Project Director Mayilsamy Annadurai told reporters here. 

_*The work had begun on the project and it was likely to be launched by end of 2011 or early 2012, he said. ISRO plans to send a manned flight to space in 2015 and the manned mission to the moon in 2020, he added.*_

About Chandrayaan-I, he said it has beamed 40,000 pictures since its launch. 

The stakeholders of the project would meet soon to discuss the information beamed by India's successful lunar mission, Annadurai said."



Tamilnadu said:


> Its called protest bro,i can understand why you cant comprehend .



I know, but I don't see them smash their Xiaomi or Lenovo phones, so it is not that serious anyway.

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## dray

Dungeness said:


> I know, but I don't see them smash their Xiaomi or Lenovo phones, so it is not that serious anyway.



That's because they use better phones.


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## Dungeness

Rain Man said:


> That's because they use better phones.



Like iPhones? Apple only sold 1.7 million iPhones in India last year (including refurbished ones), and they sold 58 million in China. What exactly "*better phones*" Indians are using?

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## Jlaw

Dungeness said:


> Like iPhones? Apple only sold 1.7 million iPhones in India last year (including refurbished ones), and they sold 58 million in China. What exactly "*better phones*" Indians are using?


indians love Micromax because most are poor

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## Dungeness

Jlaw said:


> indians love Micromax because most are poor



Yeah, but those are Made in China. They started assembly those in India now, I guess.

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## Tamilnadu

Jlaw said:


> indians love Micromax because most are poor


Few years down the line even china was poor but most did have cell phones at all,India started good 10-15 years late.dont worry we will reach there.


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## dray

Dungeness said:


> What exactly "*better phones*" Indians are using?



The non-Chinese brands.



Dungeness said:


> Yeah, but those are Made in China. They started assembly those in India now, I guess.



Yes, more than 2/3rd of our smartphones are being assembled in India, just like the way it used to be assembled in China. From the Operating System to the Chipset, all good phones use technology from countries like America, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc.



Jlaw said:


> The indians rebrand them and claim they are made in india



Get updated.


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## T90TankGuy

greenwood said:


> Inidan burn our national flag you know, this hehavior is considered impious to China's honour.
> 
> Our national flag could be burned in a war, but can't be burned by a ruffian idiot.
> View attachment 314522


Anyone else know what this kid is talking about?


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## xunzi

Can some Indian explain to me? There are other nations that oppose it, why do their media throw a tantrum on us?

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## qwerrty

why don't they just sign the npt and get accepted in nsg like everyone else and china wont have any excuse to object them anymore. it's so simple

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## qwerrty

greenwood said:


> Because India is special. India is supapowa.


or because their nuke is so weak they need to do more tests to collect more data, so they can simulate on supercomputer like all p5 members doing

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## Dungeness

qwerrty said:


> why don't they just sign the npt and get accepted in nsg like everyone else and china wont have any excuse to object them anymore. it's so simple



This is also my question. Any Indian member care to answer? Just why India needs to be THE Exception?


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> This is also my question. Any Indian member care to answer? Just why India needs to be THE Exception?


Same reason why China accepted India's NSG waiver


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## greenwood

Syama Ayas said:


> Same reason why China accepted India's NSG waiver


 
That your own choice / decision.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

greenwood said:


> That your own choice.


So India's NSG waiver was accepted due India own choice?



If things were that easy, China would be an MTCR member by now because of her "own choice"


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## greenwood

Syama Ayas said:


> So India's NSG waiver was accepted due India own choice?
> 
> 
> 
> If things were that easy, China would be an MTCR member by now because of her "own choice"


 
We don't care that MTCR.

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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> Same reason why China accepted India's NSG waiver



My question was why India refuse to sign NPT, so China doesn't have any reason to shut you out from NSG.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

greenwood said:


> We don't care that MTCR.


Sure you don't, thats why China has given a signed written agreement to USA to comply with guidelines and attempted unsuccessfully to join the group.


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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> So India's NSG waiver was accepted due India own choice?
> 
> 
> 
> If things were that easy, China would be an MTCR member by now because of her "own choice"





Syama Ayas said:


> Sure you don't, that why China has given a signed written agreement to USA to comply with guidlines and attempted unsuccessfully to join the group.




That was then, and this is now. We are selling our armed drones with 500kg payload and 500 km range all over the pace.

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## greenwood

Syama Ayas said:


> Sure you don't, that why China has given a signed written agreement to USA to comply with guidlines and attempted unsuccessfully to join the group.


 
That happened 14 or some longer years ago. When they refused once, China havn't so far applid it any more. It's not important, our rokect or missile technology is advanced than most of the MTCR members.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

greenwood said:


> That happened 14 or some longer years ago. When they refused once, China havn't so far applid it any more. It's not important, our rokect or missile technology is advanced than most of the MTCR members.


So China has dropped its application for MTCR, good to know


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## qwerrty

this is purely on indian side. it's all up to them. i don't know why they throwing tantrum at china 


Syama Ayas said:


> If things were that easy, China would be an MTCR member by now because of her "own choice"



china doesn't give a sh1t about mtcr. the yanks and euros ain't gonna sell to china their missiles once they become member. china has more to lose than gain. becoming member means they can't sell long range uav/ucavs and other long range weapons to countries that uncle sam doesn't like anymore. no good.. lolz

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## greenwood

Syama Ayas said:


> So China has dropped its application for MTCR, good to know


 
Yes, and nobody in China cares, I just this week hear about mtcr from Indian mouth.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

qwerrty said:


> this is purely on indian side. it's all up to them. i don't know why they throwing tantrum at china
> 
> 
> *china doesn't give a s1t about mtcr*. the yanks and euros ain't gonna sell to china their missiles once they become member. china has more to lose than gain. becoming member means they can't sell long range uav/ucavs and other long range weapons to countries that uncle sam doesn't like anymore. no good.. lolz



Very truthful and convincing words, if you can prove:
1. China has withdrawn its signed agreement to USA, that it will comply with MTCR Guidelines.
2. China has officially announced that is will discontinue to seek MTCR membership.

Until then keep your fingers crossed for highly probable MTCR membership. 



Dungeness said:


> That was then, and this is now. We are selling our armed drones with 500kg payload and 500 km range all over the pace.


Which drones would that be?



greenwood said:


> Yes, and nobody in China cares, I just this week hear about mtcr from Indian mouth.


Nobody in China is supposed to care about MTCR or NSG waiver for India.

Your media has made good efforts to ensure that.

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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> Which drones would that be?



Ask Iraqi. You can google with key words like CH-4B, YL-1 etc. By the way, yo have not answered my question yet. Why India refuse to sign NPT?

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> Ask Iraqi. You can google with key words like CH-4B, YL-1 etc. By the way, yo have not answered my question yet. Why India refuse to sign NPT?


Perhaps you are not clear with MTCR restrictions or CH-4 payload reporting is wrong

MTCR states that:



> The MTCR seeks to limit the risks of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by controlling exports of goods and technologies that could make a contribution to delivery systems (other than manned aircraft) for such weapons. In this context, the Regime places particular focus on rockets and unmanned aerial vehicles capable of *delivering a payload of at least 500 kg to a range of at least 300 km* and on equipment, software, and technology for such systems.



http://www.mtcr.info/english/FAQ-E.html


CH-4 reported payload and range is:



> The CH-4 has an operational ceiling of 8,000 m (26,246 ft), a maximum range of *3,500 km* (2,175 miles), and a maximum take-off weight of 1,330 kg. The UAV can carry up to *345 kg* of weapon or mission payload, with 165 kg fuel.



Assuming Sinodefence is correct, since when did 345kg become equivalent of 500kg? 

https://sinodefence.com/2015/12/13/ch-4-uav/

In regard to India's not signing NPT, google India and NPT signing


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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> Perhaps you are not clear with MTCR restrictions or CH-4 payload reporting is wrong
> 
> MTCR states that:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.mtcr.info/english/FAQ-E.html
> 
> 
> CH-4 reported payload and range is:
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming Sinodefence is correct, since when did 345kg become equivalent of 500kg?
> 
> https://sinodefence.com/2015/12/13/ch-4-uav/
> 
> In regard to India's not signing NPT, google India and NPT signing



OK, you won.  And just in case yo did not know, China even sold medium range missilles to Saudis. Goodl DF-3. 

Now answer my question.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> OK, you won.
> 
> Now answer my question.


Could not find anything on google?


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## greenwood

Syama Ayas said:


> Could not find anything on google?


 
It's Indian affairs, you need to do / google it.


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## Dungeness

Syama Ayas said:


> Could not find anything on google?




Just want to confirm from our Indian friends.

Found some reasons on the net as why Indian refuse to sign NPT, but not very sure which one is the main reason.

1. India has not successfully tested Hydrogen bombs
2. India is not confident with the effectiveness of its nuclear arsenals, so more tests may be needed,
3. India doesn't have the supercomputer capacity to do simulated nuclear tests,
4. India has not yet weaponize its nuclear device, so additional work need to be done.

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## Dandpatta

greenwood said:


> Inidan burn our national flag you know, this hehavior is considered impious to China's honour.
> 
> Our national flag could be burned in a war, but can't be burned by a ruffian idiot.
> View attachment 314522


Are you stupid? It's not even Indian soldiers who are burning your flag. Shot taken from some *** burn movie?


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## greenwood

Dandpatta said:


> Are you stupid? It's not even Indian soldiers who are burning your flag. Shot taken from some *** burn movie?


 
Do you understand their stupid burning flag behavior, after so much of discussion on the thread, have you understood why India failed this NSG entry?

The shot was a military correspondent's photo during a territory war.


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## airmarshal

US, the biggest terrorist and a major contributor to world instability, is fully pursuing membership for India, despite India not being an NPT signatory. 

The NSG was formed to control nuclear commerce and its members had to abide by NPT. In fact NSG was formed after 1974 India nuclear tests.

India also got an unprecedented civil nuclear deal from US despite being non-NPT nuclear country. As US pursues India membership, it will get it either way. In any case. India is enjoying benefits of NSG membership without it being a formal member.

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## pher

what is a big deal to burn flags? it is highly possible that those flags burned were made in China. Welcome india import more to burn them for fun.


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## Dungeness

airmarshal said:


> US, the biggest terrorist and a major contributor to world instability, is fully pursuing membership for India, despite India not being an NPT signatory.
> 
> The NSG was formed to control nuclear commerce and its members had to abide by NPT. In fact NSG was formed after 1974 India nuclear tests.
> 
> India also got an unprecedented civil nuclear deal from US despite being non-NPT nuclear country. As US pursues India membership, it will get it either way. In any case. India is enjoying benefits of NSG membership without it being a formal member.



And yet, India strongly believes it is Entitled to be the only exception to the rules. It does sound like a spoiled kid to me.



pher said:


> what is a big deal to burn flags? it is highly possible that those* flags burned were made in China*. Welcome india import more to burn them for fun.



With imported Chinese cheap lighters.

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## Dandpatta

jbgt90 said:


> Anyone else know what this kid is talking about?


Uske bheje mein comprehension problem aur compression problem huwa hein. Chhod do !

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Dungeness said:


> Just want to confirm from our Indian friends.
> 
> Found some reasons on the net as why Indian refuse to sign NPT, but not very sure which one is the main reason.
> 
> 1. India has not successfully tested Hydrogen bombs
> 2. India is not confident with the effectiveness of its nuclear arsenals, so more tests may be needed,
> 3. India doesn't have the supercomputer capacity to do simulated nuclear tests,
> 4. *India has not yet weaponize its nuclear device, so additional work need to be done.*





Did you Baidu or did you google?

You seem to have confused NPT for CTBT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Nuclear-Test-Ban_Treaty

Not surprising you have not even posted your sources for these "reasons"

Continue to live in your CCP land

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## footmarks

Dungeness said:


> Why India refuse to sign NPT?



Because, essentially, NPT rules that only the 5 so called "winners" of WW II can possess nuclear weapons. This itself is flawed. BTW, India's stance is fair and clear. Either all countries of the world, including the 5 "recognized nuclear powers" relinquish their nuclear weapons in full, or allow everyone to have their own "independent" program. India is not against NPT per se, it is against the 5 members' hegemony and double standards.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

airmarshal said:


> US, the biggest terrorist and a major contributor to world instability, is fully pursuing membership for India, despite India not being an NPT signatory.
> 
> The NSG was formed to control nuclear commerce and its members had to abide by NPT. In fact NSG was formed after 1974 India nuclear tests.
> 
> India also got an unprecedented civil nuclear deal from US despite being non-NPT nuclear country. As US pursues India membership, it will get it either way. In any case. *India is enjoying benefits of NSG membership without it being a formal member.*


Chinese are equally guilty as US here for supporting India's NSG waiver, without which Indo-US nuclear deal was of little significance.

Hence the whole article itself reeks irony as China contributed to this "spoiling" of India


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## greenwood

footmarks said:


> Because, essentially, NPT rules that only the 5 so called "winners" of WW II can possess nuclear weapons. This itself is flawed. BTW, India's stance is fair and clear. Either all countries of the world, including the 5 "recognized nuclear powers" relinquish their nuclear weapons in full, or allow everyone to have their own "independent" program. India is not against NPT per se, it is against the 5 members' hegemony and double standards.


 
India could seek other methods or issues to show she is an important power in the world, for example, take more international responsiblity. This time, this method is not good choice.

Nuclear is very cautious issue all over the world, you can't break the principle because of rising power.

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## footmarks

greenwood said:


> India could seek other methods or issues to show she is an important power in the world, for example, take more international responsiblity. This time, this method is not good choice.
> 
> Nuclear is very cautious issue all over the world, you can't break the principle because of rising power.



Thats why NSG membership is called for - to take more responsibility. Otherwise, nuclear trade is already allowed to India through the 2008 waiver. Plus, if nuclear is such a cautious issue, why dont China assume leadership and disarm all its nuclear weapons completely and forever - to set an example? 

Talk about "responsibility"


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## greenwood

footmarks said:


> Thats why NSG membership is called for - to take more responsibility. Otherwise, nuclear trade is already allowed to India through the 2008 waiver. Plus, if nuclear is such a cautious issue, why dont China assume leadership and disarm all its nuclear weapons completely and forever - to set an example?
> 
> Talk about "responsibility"


 
Before NPT become legal treaty or law, China had owned nuclear weapons. China already took the responsiblity joining in the NPT.

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## footmarks

greenwood said:


> Before NPT become legal treaty or law, China had owned nuclear weapons. China already took the responsiblity joining in the NPT.


NPT came into being after India tested nuclear bomb. SO India already was a nuclear power by the time NPT came into being. By the same yardstick as yours, India should be recognised as a nuclear power state and then India can sign NPT.


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## greenwood

footmarks said:


> NPT came into being after India tested nuclear bomb. SO India already was a nuclear power by the time NPT came into being. By the same yardstick as yours, India should be recognised as a nuclear power state and then India can sign NPT.


 
The international world has a standard differs between nuclear test and nuclear nation.
India was assued by breaking NPT in 1998? nuclear bomb test and you should remember the sanction.

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## footmarks

greenwood said:


> The international world has a standard differs between nuclear test and nuclear nation.
> India was assued by breaking NPT in 1998? nuclear bomb test and you should remember the sanction.



And what is the different standard? China signed it later, after conducting at least 45 nuclear tests, US did >945 and USSR/Russia did >600 tests, same with France & UK - many of these after NPT was established. This is double standard man (or lady, I dont know ).

BTW, what is "international World"?


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## Joe Shearer

Nan Yang said:


> India spoiled, rules alone blocked its NSG entry: Chinese media
> 
> Defending China's opposition to India's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) as "morally legitimate", a state-run daily Tuesday hit out at India saying the West has "spoiled" the country making it a "bit smug" in international affairs.
> In a hard hitting editorial, Global Times said it was rules, not China, that prevented India's entry into the 48-nation elite nuclear trading body.
> It said at least 10 countries, including China, opposed the accession of non-signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) into the NSG.
> "...India wants to be the first exception to join the NSG without signing the NPT. It is morally legitimate for China and other members to upset India's proposal in defence of principles," said the tabloid, part of the ruling Communist Party of China's publications.
> The daily, known for its nationalistic postures, said India is emerging as the "golden boy" of the West.
> "Recent years have seen the Western world giving too many thumbs-up to India, but thumbs-down to China. India is spoiled. Although the South Asian country's GDP accounts for only 20% of that of China, it is still a golden boy in the eyes of the West, having a competitive edge and more potential compared to China. The international 'adulation' of India makes the country a bit smug in international affairs," it said.
> Criticising Indian media and public reaction on India's failed NSG bid, it, however, said the Indian government has behaved "decently."
> "Some Indians are too self-centered and self-righteous. On the contrary, the Indian government behaves decently and is willing to communicate. Throwing a tantrum won't be an option for New Delhi," it said.
> "India's nationalists should learn how to behave themselves. Now that they wish their country could be a major power, they should know how major powers play their games," the daily said.
> Taking exception to the US' support to India for NSG entry, the editorial said, "US backing adds the biggest impetus to India's ambition. By cozying up to India, Washington's India policy actually serves the purpose of containing China."
> "The US is not the whole world. Its endorsement does not mean India has won the backing of the world. This basic fact, however, has been ignored by India," it said.
> 
> http://atimes.com/2016/06/west-spoiled-india-says-china-defending-stand-on-delhis-nsg-bid/




What is shocking - truly shocking, at an unprecedented level of frankness and truthfulness - is the degree of envy and feeling of being unloved displayed by this reaction. Apparently, China's bid for international recognition and attempt to achieve a position of a default benign and deciding power in the world is seen to have been less than successful, and India's unexpected degree of international support, in spite of being, in Chinese eyes, less than worthy of comparison with China in any shape, manner or variation, has caused pain and hurt. 

Nothing else can explain this vindictive little passage.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> false claim and China is wrongfully accused



You will have to do a lot of explanation to wash away that note. Dismissive one liners seem a little flat next to what has been put on record. Try harder, please.



greenwood said:


> Inidan burn our national flag you know, this hehavior is considered impious to China's honour.
> 
> Our national flag could be burned in a war, but can't be burned by a ruffian idiot.
> View attachment 314522



Who has done this and where, and when?



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> What else you expect from these Indians, let them vent their anger on our flag if that can comfort them..LMAO



When your arse is back in place, perhaps you would dignify your comment by adding some facts and information to it. Is that too much to ask, or are these simple processes of participating in a forum beneath the dignity of your good self?



greenwood said:


> why let them vent their anger on our flag? They should burn their own leader and their own national flag to comfort themself.



Thank you very much for your advice. It will be considered in its proper time and place, along with other inputs of such enormous worth and value.



Rain Man said:


> That's probably our Tibetan brothers, their whole country was snatched from them, and you are talking about a flag!



I love the casual arrogance with which they talk about some obscure incident and expect international waves of indignation to inundate the impious. Amazing.



greenwood said:


> Tibetan is your brother?
> Last time I check Muslim is actually your brother in Moghol empire and some time before that.



Nothing better to be expected from an uneducated fool. Tibet was brought to Buddhism by Indian preachers. The history of this is too long to relate, and will cost you money. So take it at that and do not get into an history that you neither know nor need to know.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Joe Shearer said:


> What is shocking - truly shocking, at an unprecedented level of frankness and truthfulness - is the degree of envy and feeling of being unloved displayed by this reaction. Apparently, China's bid for international recognition and attempt to achieve a position of a default benign and deciding power in the world is seen to have been less than successful, and India's unexpected degree of international support, in spite of being, in Chinese eyes, less than worthy of comparison with China in any shape, manner or variation, has caused pain and hurt.



This is quiet less compared to one of the articles, where they went as far as referring Indians as inferior.

The irony given what the endured during the century of humiliation.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...dia-article/story-UnCJUIWC6ii4dilcTE6uNO.html


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## Joe Shearer

Syama Ayas said:


> This is quiet less compared to one of the articles, where they went as far as referring Indians as inferior.
> 
> The irony given what the endured during the century of humiliation.
> 
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...dia-article/story-UnCJUIWC6ii4dilcTE6uNO.html



How does one upload or insert photographs? jpeg, basically.



Dungeness said:


> They don't look like Tibetans to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They burn their own people too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a BIG DEAL, what else they can do?



Everyone has an arsehole. Every country has a bunch of lunatics on the fringe. So what?



oprih said:


> How many days will indians continue to cry?  Poor indians probably can't sleep at night thinking about their country's endless failures.



You have no idea how much we cry, not just about our sorrows but at those of others. 

For instance, whenever someone says China buggered the Philippines over the Spratly Islands, I burst into tears.



oprih said:


> Poor tibetans, don't worry arunachal will be next.



Since when did Pinoys fall in love with pandas? Couldn't you think of any Filipino visuals? Brainless idiot.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Joe Shearer said:


> How does one upload or insert photographs? jpeg, basically.


If you have link of the image, there is image icon within the post window beside the smiley icon, click on that and rest should be easy


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## Joe Shearer

jbgt90 said:


> Anyone else know what this kid is talking about?



Yes, some bhakts burnt the Chinese flag. We desperately need a Baygon variant for these insects.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Joe Shearer said:


> For instance, whenever someone says China buggered the Philippines over the Spratly Islands, I burst into tears.
> 
> Since when did Pinoys fall in love with pandas? Couldn't you think of any Filipino visuals? Brainless idiot.


Ethnic Chinese Pinoy here with several multiple ids created and getting into trouble for trolling.

https://defence.pk/threads/abuse-of-rating-system.403805/

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## Joe Shearer

Dungeness said:


> Here is one of those "WE WILLs" from the past:
> 
> 
> 
> "Saturday, January 17, 2009 : 1850 Hrs Hindu
> 
> Chennai, Jan 17 (PTI) ISRO has begun working on the Rs 425-crore second unmanned moon mission to be launched by early 2012 following the success of Chandrayaan-I, a top ISRO official said here on Saturday.
> 
> Chandrayaan-II will focus on soil and mineral exploration on the lunar surface with the help of a robotic device and send back data, Chandrayaan Project Director Mayilsamy Annadurai told reporters here.
> 
> _*The work had begun on the project and it was likely to be launched by end of 2011 or early 2012, he said. ISRO plans to send a manned flight to space in 2015 and the manned mission to the moon in 2020, he added.*_
> 
> About Chandrayaan-I, he said it has beamed 40,000 pictures since its launch.
> 
> The stakeholders of the project would meet soon to discuss the information beamed by India's successful lunar mission, Annadurai said."
> 
> 
> 
> I know, but I don't see them smash their Xiaomi or Lenovo phones, so it is not that serious anyway.



Never heard of Indian Standard Time?

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## SBUS-CXK

INDIC said:


> Unlike Pakistan, India is neither a small country nor have tensions with West, Israel. So, if little diplomacy help us to gain exclusive rights, there is nothing wrong in that.
> 
> Infact you will see only country among P-5 which hasn't supported India permanent UNSC membership is China. Our border dispute with China and their hegemony matters us more than what going on in the middle East.
> 
> Can you tell us what your analyst say about give-take to the West.


India as the south Asian subcontinent overlord and superpower, demand too much. 
Before the implementation requirements, please have enough strength to support.

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## Director General

Member who blocked India's entry into NSG be held accountable: US diplomat
By PTI | 29 Jun, 2016, 21:47 hrs IST

A week after India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition, the US today said one country can break consensus in the atomic trading bloc and insisted that such member should be held accountable.
NEW DELHI: A week after India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition, the US today said one country can break consensus in the atomic trading bloc and insisted that such member should be held accountable.
US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon asserted that the US is committed to ensuring India's entry into the NSG while expressing "regret" that Washington was unsuccessful in making India a member of the bloc in its pleanary in Seoul last week.
"We understand that in a consensus-based organisation, one country can break consensus. But in order to do so it must be (held) accountable not isolated.
"I think what we need to do going forward is, for both of us India and the US, sit down and take a call what happened in the Seoul, take a close look at the diplomatic process which is significant and see what more we can do and how we can ensure that next time we are successful," he said during an interactive session at the Foreign Service Institute.
*Calling India an "anchor of stability" in the Asia Pacifc region, US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon also said what China was doing in South China Sea is "madness" and it wants New Delhi to play a major role in the Indian Ocean.*
Shannon said managing the rise of China was a major challenge and that the US wants to work with India to have a strong and comprehensive presence in the Indian Ocean.
Describing India a responsible and important player in the sphere of nuclear non-proliferation, Shannon said, "We are committed to having India join the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We believe that through the kind of work we have done, the civil nuclear agreement, the way India conducted itself, it is worthy of this."
On India's NSG bid, he said the US would continue to work for India's inclusion in the group.
Shannon, who met Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar earlier in the day, said India's recent entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) highlighted that the country is a "responsible and important player in the road to non- proliferation."
"We regret, in Seoul we and India, were unable to open space necessary to allow India to move into the NSG at this moment," he said.
When asked whether he thinks India will ratify the Paris climate deal before Obama administration's tenure got over and, at the same time, it will become a member of the NSG, he said "I hope so".
He said India has given a commitment to ratify the climate deal.
Shannon said that Indo-US civil nuclear cooperation was a very important symbol of friendship between the two countries.
"Just a few weeks ago, President Obama and Prime Minister (Narendra) Modi welcomed the start of preparatory work on a site in Andhra Pradesh for six AP 1000 reactors to be built by an American company.
"This is expected to provide jobs in both countries and bring clean, reliable electricity that will help meet India's growing energy needs while reducing reliance on fossil fuels," he said.

httpwwweconomictimescom/news/defence/member-who-blocked-indias-entry-into-nsg-be-held-accountable-us-diplomat/articleshow/52977439.cms

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## Imran Khan

wow what an game 

but that country is US grand father 
largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.

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## I M Sikander

Director General said:


> Member who blocked India's entry into NSG be held accountable: US diplomat
> By PTI | 29 Jun, 2016, 21:47 hrs IST
> 
> A week after India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition, the US today said one country can break consensus in the atomic trading bloc and insisted that such member should be held accountable.
> NEW DELHI: A week after India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition, the US today said one country can break consensus in the atomic trading bloc and insisted that such member should be held accountable.
> US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon asserted that the US is committed to ensuring India's entry into the NSG while expressing "regret" that Washington was unsuccessful in making India a member of the bloc in its pleanary in Seoul last week.
> "We understand that in a consensus-based organisation, one country can break consensus. But in order to do so it must be (held) accountable not isolated.
> "I think what we need to do going forward is, for both of us India and the US, sit down and take a call what happened in the Seoul, take a close look at the diplomatic process which is significant and see what more we can do and how we can ensure that next time we are successful," he said during an interactive session at the Foreign Service Institute.
> *Calling India an "anchor of stability" in the Asia Pacifc region, US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon also said what China was doing in South China Sea is "madness" and it wants New Delhi to play a major role in the Indian Ocean.*
> Shannon said managing the rise of China was a major challenge and that the US wants to work with India to have a strong and comprehensive presence in the Indian Ocean.
> Describing India a responsible and important player in the sphere of nuclear non-proliferation, Shannon said, "We are committed to having India join the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We believe that through the kind of work we have done, the civil nuclear agreement, the way India conducted itself, it is worthy of this."
> On India's NSG bid, he said the US would continue to work for India's inclusion in the group.
> Shannon, who met Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar earlier in the day, said India's recent entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) highlighted that the country is a "responsible and important player in the road to non- proliferation."
> "We regret, in Seoul we and India, were unable to open space necessary to allow India to move into the NSG at this moment," he said.
> When asked whether he thinks India will ratify the Paris climate deal before Obama administration's tenure got over and, at the same time, it will become a member of the NSG, he said "I hope so".
> He said India has given a commitment to ratify the climate deal.
> Shannon said that Indo-US civil nuclear cooperation was a very important symbol of friendship between the two countries.
> "Just a few weeks ago, President Obama and Prime Minister (Narendra) Modi welcomed the start of preparatory work on a site in Andhra Pradesh for six AP 1000 reactors to be built by an American company.
> "This is expected to provide jobs in both countries and bring clean, reliable electricity that will help meet India's growing energy needs while reducing reliance on fossil fuels," he said.
> 
> httpwwweconomictimescom/news/defence/member-who-blocked-indias-entry-into-nsg-be-held-accountable-us-diplomat/articleshow/52977439.cms


Haha.
It's entertaining , howw uncle sam is trying to threat the Big day China.
By the way, it's not just china , it's 16 more countries in 48 member NSG that opposed India's membership.

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## cloud4000

Imran Khan said:


> wow what an game
> 
> but that country is US grand father
> largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.



What are you trying to say? That they are no takers for US debt? Well, China has been selling billions in US debt to boost its currency and it has no appreciable effect on US. So if China wants to sell its US debt, go right ahead. It will only be shooting itself in the foot.

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## Grevion

Well aren't we having enough buttering by the US.
Thoda f-16 le lo thoda f-35 le lo makkhan laga ke.

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## Dawood Ibrahim

Thank you China

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## Dungeness

Joe Shearer said:


> Never heard of Indian Standard Time?



Indian Standard Times has been way off for quite a long time. High time to fix your clock. 



Joe Shearer said:


> Everyone has an arsehole. Every country has a bunch of lunatics on the fringe. So what?
> 
> .



Nothing really. I am pretty cool with that. Being protested is far better than protesting.


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## Chinese-Dragon

India called the USA to come fight for them. Why does it feel like it has happened before? 

Oh wait....

India pleaded for US help against China in 1962 - Times of India

And just like before, the USA ended up using India as a pawn and a meat shield against China.

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## CorporateAffairs

China cannot stop entry into NSG, says USA (loser) 
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-s...b-membership-1426171?pfrom=home-lateststories


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## Dungeness

footmarks said:


> Because, essentially, NPT rules that only the 5 so called "winners" of WW II can possess nuclear weapons. This itself is flawed. BTW, India's stance is fair and clear. Either all countries of the world, including the 5 "recognized nuclear powers" relinquish their nuclear weapons in full, or allow everyone to have their own "independent" program. India is not against NPT per se, it is against the 5 members' hegemony and double standards.



Follow the rules even if they are are not to your liking, or just don't be part of it at all. You shouldn't really cheery pick, and get mad with someone who told you this is a basket deal. What makes India think it deserve to be the only exception to the rule?

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## Chinese-Dragon

footmarks said:


> Because, essentially, NPT rules that only the 5 so called "winners" of WW II can possess nuclear weapons. This itself is flawed. BTW, India's stance is fair and clear. Either all countries of the world, including the 5 "recognized nuclear powers" relinquish their nuclear weapons in full, or allow everyone to have their own "independent" program. India is not against NPT per se, it is against the 5 members' hegemony and double standards.



Yeah, the world is unfair, what is new?

The first 5 nuclear powers became the only legitimate nuclear powers under the NPT, the UN and International Law. And are also the same countries who form the UNSC P5.

Next you'll be asking us to reform the UNSC P5? (Oh wait... you've already been asking for that for over a decade...)

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## Joe Shearer

Dungeness said:


> Indian Standard Times has been way off for quite a long time. High time to fix your clock. (1)
> 
> Nothing really. I am pretty cool with that. Being protested is far better than protesting. (2)



(1) No, no, that's the point. How else would we avoid being held accountable for our laziness?
(2) Good.


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## Dungeness

Joe Shearer said:


> (1) No, no, that's the point. How else would we avoid being held accountable for our laziness?
> (2) Good.



Yes, you may not be able to fix the "laziness", but at least you can fix those big months. They are really doing India no good.

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## Yogijaat

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India called their master to come fight for them. Why does it feel like it has happened before?
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> India pleaded for US help against China in 1962 - Times of India
> 
> And just like before, the USA ended up using India as a pawn and a meat shield against China.


the pawn you say made mighty China to wet it's pant and use it's veto power. If a pawn can instigate so much hysteria in an upcoming supapowa than one hell of a pawn he is.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Yogijaat said:


> the pawn you say made mighty China to wet it's pant and use it's veto power. If a pawn can instigate so much hysteria in an upcoming supapowa than one hell of a pawn he is.



LOL, we didn't even need to use veto power.

Don't you read the news? Over 10+ countries opposed India's entry to the NSG, and since every country has veto, that's like India got vetoed 10 times.

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## Irfan Baloch

Director General said:


> Member who blocked India's entry into NSG be held accountable: US diplomat
> By PTI | 29 Jun, 2016, 21:47 hrs IST
> 
> A week after India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition, the US today said one country can break consensus in the atomic trading bloc and insisted that such member should be held accountable.
> NEW DELHI: A week after India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition, the US today said one country can break consensus in the atomic trading bloc and insisted that such member should be held accountable.
> US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon asserted that the US is committed to ensuring India's entry into the NSG while expressing "regret" that Washington was unsuccessful in making India a member of the bloc in its pleanary in Seoul last week.
> "We understand that in a consensus-based organisation, one country can break consensus. But in order to do so it must be (held) accountable not isolated.
> "I think what we need to do going forward is, for both of us India and the US, sit down and take a call what happened in the Seoul, take a close look at the diplomatic process which is significant and see what more we can do and how we can ensure that next time we are successful," he said during an interactive session at the Foreign Service Institute.
> *Calling India an "anchor of stability" in the Asia Pacifc region, US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon also said what China was doing in South China Sea is "madness" and it wants New Delhi to play a major role in the Indian Ocean.*
> Shannon said managing the rise of China was a major challenge and that the US wants to work with India to have a strong and comprehensive presence in the Indian Ocean.
> Describing India a responsible and important player in the sphere of nuclear non-proliferation, Shannon said, "We are committed to having India join the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We believe that through the kind of work we have done, the civil nuclear agreement, the way India conducted itself, it is worthy of this."
> On India's NSG bid, he said the US would continue to work for India's inclusion in the group.
> Shannon, who met Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar earlier in the day, said India's recent entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) highlighted that the country is a "responsible and important player in the road to non- proliferation."
> "We regret, in Seoul we and India, were unable to open space necessary to allow India to move into the NSG at this moment," he said.
> When asked whether he thinks India will ratify the Paris climate deal before Obama administration's tenure got over and, at the same time, it will become a member of the NSG, he said "I hope so".
> He said India has given a commitment to ratify the climate deal.
> Shannon said that Indo-US civil nuclear cooperation was a very important symbol of friendship between the two countries.
> "Just a few weeks ago, President Obama and Prime Minister (Narendra) Modi welcomed the start of preparatory work on a site in Andhra Pradesh for six AP 1000 reactors to be built by an American company.
> "This is expected to provide jobs in both countries and bring clean, reliable electricity that will help meet India's growing energy needs while reducing reliance on fossil fuels," he said.
> 
> httpwwweconomictimescom/news/defence/member-who-blocked-indias-entry-into-nsg-be-held-accountable-us-diplomat/articleshow/52977439.cms


American commentary deserves a spot in comedy central channel.
they want to bend the rules of the same organisation which was made in response to Indian nuclear tests 
this bullying is against the very letter and spirit of the organisatio and also blackmailing and threatening China since the outcome was not to their pleasure

as far as I know.. it was more than one country that blocked Indian membership and hopefully the opposition will hold its lines against the bullying

I think best course for them is to make a 2 member organisation and be happy with that.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL, we didn't even need to use veto power.
> 
> Don't you read the news? Over 10+ countries opposed India's entry to the NSG, and since every country has veto, that's like India got vetoed 10 times.


dont let them bully you

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## Areesh

Yes it should be held accountable. Lets tweet against using Chinese products from made in China smartphones.

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## Mysticbuddy

Imran Khan said:


> wow what an game
> 
> but that country is US grand father
> largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.


That is 1/16 of the GDP for US. Who is going to loose that if they default of if their economy even sneezes.

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## Yogijaat

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL, we didn't even need to use veto power.
> 
> Don't you read the news? *Over 10+ countries* opposed India's entry to the NSG, and since every country has veto, that's like India got vetoed 10 times.


Naah.. in lala land of CCP it should be 48+1, India itself was opposing it's entry into NSG.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India called their master to come fight for them. Why does it feel like it has happened before?
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> India pleaded for US help against China in 1962 - Times of India
> 
> And just like before, the USA ended up using India as a pawn and a meat shield against China.





Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yep, India sold their sovereignty and didn't even get the NSG seat they were promised.
> 
> Bad deal for them,* just like when they tried to use their master* against us in 1962. They just have no idea what they are doing.


Hi @waz, I'm curious if this post violates the forum rules?

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## Areesh

Syama Ayas said:


> Hi @waz, I'm curious if this post violates the forum rules?



There is nothing wrong with the post. You begged America. This is a fact. Even Pakistan was asked not to attack IOK during 1962 war.

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## Mentee

Nimbu said:


> ROFL haha


You mad bro? Go see a scientist

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## cloud4000

Irfan Baloch said:


> American commentary deserves a spot in comedy central channel.
> they want to bend the rules of the same organisation which was made in response to Indian nuclear tests
> this bullying is against the very letter and spirit of the organisatio and also blackmailing and threatening China since the outcome was not to their pleasure
> 
> as far as I know.. it was more than one country that blocked Indian membership and hopefully the opposition will hold its lines against the bullying
> 
> I think best course for them is to make a 2 member organisation and be happy with that.



One wonders why Pakistan submitted an application to join a group that discriminates against them as well.

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## Areesh

cloud4000 said:


> One wonders why Pakistan submitted an application to join a group that discriminates against them as well.



To build case to block India. And it worked. it is pretty simple.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Irfan Baloch said:


> American commentary deserves a spot in comedy central channel.
> they want to bend the rules of the same organisation which was made in response to Indian nuclear tests
> *this bullying is against the very letter and spirit of the organisatio *and also blackmailing and threatening China since the outcome was not to their pleasure
> 
> as far as I know.. it was more than one country that blocked Indian membership and hopefully the opposition will hold its lines against the bullying
> 
> I think best course for them is to make a 2 member organisation and be happy with that.
> 
> 
> dont let them bully you



If its "bullying is against the very letter and spirit of the organisatio" ? why did the Chinese agree to accept India's NSG waiver?

The NSG waiver is far more against the spirit of NSG, as it grants India many benefits of NSG without even being a member.

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## cloud4000

Areesh said:


> To build case to block India. And it worked. it is pretty simple.



Not exactly. If it was about simply about blocking India's entry into NSG, China would just veto it. End of story. But Pakistan wants to join NSG too, if anything to burnish its image as a responsible nuclear state and make it easier to import nuclear technology. 

If there's a case India within NSG, there's a bigger case against Pakistan; and not even China can deliver on this. So it was just easier to veto India's entry, if anything to please Pakistan. Not that it matters, the waiver gives India the right to pursue nuclear deals bilaterally.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

cloud4000 said:


> Not exactly. If it was about simply about blocking India's entry into NSG, China would just veto it. End of story. But Pakistan wants to join NSG too, if anything to burnish its image as a *responsible nuclear state and make it easier to import nuclear technology. *
> 
> If there's a case India within NSG, there's a bigger case against Pakistan; and not even China can deliver on this. So it was just easier to veto India's entry, if anything to please Pakistan. Not that it matters, the waiver gives India the right to pursue nuclear deals bilaterally.


Most critically import nuclear fuel.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Syama Ayas said:


> If its "bullying is against the very letter and spirit of the organisatio" ? why did the Chinese agree to accept India's NSG waiver?



Because we didn't lose anything, and we got something nice in return, the right to build multiple nuclear reactors in Pakistan outside of NSG rules. 

And sure, we wouldn't lose anything by letting India into the NSG either.

But since India sold their sovereignty to the USA in exchange for NSG support, we know India wants it badly enough to pay a big price for it. Modi offering a few nuclear reactors and industrial parks is nice, but not enough.

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## Areesh

cloud4000 said:


> Not exactly.



That is the case dear. Pakistan always knew there is very little chance of Pakistan getting NSG membership. Pakistan applied so that China can use it to veto India. Mission accomplished.

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## I M Sikander

cloud4000 said:


> One wonders why Pakistan submitted an application to join a group that discriminates against them as well.



We have every right to be the me member of NSG.
We have a functional nuclear program in military, and civilian use. 

We have the long experience of safe operation of nuclear power plants, nuclear desalination plant, Minning and fuel fabrication. 

Pakistan has Extensive use of nuclear technology in nuclear medicine , agricultural, food processing and multi fields.

Unlike many nsg member countries Pakistan has operational nuclear power plants since 1970s. Whereas many nsg me members don't have nuclear power plants even today.

Pakistan is among few countries who have complete nuclear fuel cycle.

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## I M Sikander

Pakistan doesn't need Nuclear technology for military use from NSG me members. We already have that technology. 

We needs NSG membership so that we can expand the use of nuclear technology in civilian sector for the benefit of country and our economy.

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## I M Sikander

Areesh said:


> To build case to block India. And it worked. it is pretty simple.



No not at all. 
India's unilateral entry would have been devastating for Pakistan. Because in that case India would definately oppose Pakistan member ship in NSG, once they get nsg membership.


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## cloud4000

Areesh said:


> That is the case dear. Pakistan always knew there is very little chance of Pakistan getting NSG membership. Pakistan applied so that China can use it to veto India. Mission accomplished.



What exactly did Pakistan get? A diplomatic victory? How short-lived will this be? India has the waiver and will make its deals bilaterally. Can Pakistan do the same?



Ranasikander said:


> We have every right to be the me member of NSG.
> We have a functional nuclear program in military, and civilian use.
> 
> We have the long experience of safe operation of nuclear power plants, nuclear desalination plant, Minning and fuel fabrication.
> 
> Pakistan has Extensive use of nuclear technology in nuclear medicine , agricultural, food processing and multi fields.
> 
> Unlike many nsg member countries Pakistan has operational nuclear power plants since 1970s. Whereas many nsg me members don't have nuclear power plants even today.
> 
> Pakistan is among few countries who have complete nuclear fuel cycle.



According to China's own reason for rejecting India's membership, they should reject Pakistan's membership too.


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## I M Sikander

Areesh said:


> That is the case dear. Pakistan always knew there is very little chance of Pakistan getting NSG membership. Pakistan applied so that China can use it to veto India. Mission accomplished.



Better not speculate about Pakistan when indias request to join nsg has been rejected. And its not just China , its 12 more countries that opposed India's request to join NSG.

India is blaming China for their own diplomatic failure, as a scape goat.

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## I M Sikander

cloud4000 said:


> What exactly did Pakistan get? A diplomatic victory? How short-lived will this be? India has the waiver and will make its deals bilaterally. Can Pakistan do the same.


Pakistan already doing bilateral nuclear trade with china.

China has supplied 4 nuclear power plants to Pakistan, installed in chashma.

Even two 1125 MW bigger size nuclear power plants are also under construction with Chinese help in Karachi. 

India is doing the same bilateral nuclear trade with America , France and Russia.

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## illusion8

Ranasikander said:


> Better not speculate about Pakistan when indias request to join nsg has been rejected. And its not just China , its 12 more countries that opposed India's request to join NSG.
> 
> India is blaming China for their own diplomatic failure, as a scape goat.



Do you mind naming those 12 countries?

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## Spring Onion

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Because we didn't lose anything, and we got something nice in return, the right to build multiple nuclear reactors in Pakistan outside of NSG rules.
> 
> And sure, we wouldn't lose anything by letting India into the NSG either.
> 
> *But since India sold their sovereignty to the USA in exchange for NSG support, we know India wants it badly enough to pay a big price for it*. Modi offering a few nuclear reactors and industrial parks is nice, but not enough.



 for the red part Isn't it a bad bargain on the part of India?

I mean one way or the other India might get into NSG and as you said China would lose nothing even to let her into NSG, then why India is all ready to bow to US?

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Because we didn't lose anything, and we got something nice in return, the right to build multiple nuclear reactors in Pakistan outside of NSG rules.





Either being a think-tank you are oblivious to "grandfather clause" in NSG or making a cheap attempt to save face here


China is exporting nuclear reactors based on agreements with Pakistan prior to joining the NSG. Not a new supply of reactors.



> *First, the requirement applies only to subsequent nuclear cooperation and does not cover supply commitments that existed at the time; this provision is known as the “grandfather clause.” Second, the guidelines permit nuclear exports to states without comprehensive safeguards in exceptional cases when such exports are “deemed essential for the safe operation of existing facilities and if safeguards are applied to those facilities.”*
> 
> *Russia has exploited both these loopholes to justify nuclear sales to India. Moscow justified its nuclear exports toIndia in the late 1990s by claiming that they were grandfathered by the Russian-Indian agreement of 1988*. However, that agreement was a general legal framework for cooperation and contained no commitments to supply. The United States and other NSG members raised questions about this cooperation to no avail. *In 2001,Russia exported low-enriched uranium to India for fueling the Tarapur reactors, citing the safety exception. TheUnited States and others regarded this export as a violation of Russia’s commitment to the comprehensive safeguards guideline. Russia signed another reactor deal with India in 2007 and delivered nuclear fuel to Indiaeven before the NSG in 2008 exempted India from its comprehensive safeguards requirement.*
> 
> *China now is citing the grandfather clause as justification for its planned assistance to Pakistan’s civil nuclear reactors. In a formal “declaration of existing projects” made at the time it joined the NSG in 2004, Beijing informed the NSG of its 1991 cooperation agreement with Pakistan under which it had supplied a 300-megawatt reactor at Chashma and had just undertaken to supply an additional 325-megawatt reactor at the same location.*



https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2011_01-02/McGoldrick

It would be interesting to see China justify a "new" reactor sale to Pakistan under the "grandfather clause" 



> And sure, we wouldn't lose anything by letting India into the NSG either.



Indeed China doesn't thats why China tried to oppose both NSG waiver and NSG membership for India.

Allowing India to import Uranium in no way frees up its own Uranium reserves specifically to be used for nuclear weapons, which do not target China. 




> But since India sold their sovereignty to the USA in exchange for NSG support, we know India wants it badly enough to pay a big price for it. Modi offering a few nuclear reactors and industrial parks is nice, but not enough.



How does USA support for India's NSG support compromise on sovereignty, unless you are gullible enough to believe under Indo-US nuke deal, USA has stationed its nuclear arsenal on Indian soil

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## illusion8

Ranasikander said:


> Haha.
> It's entertaining , howw uncle sam is trying to threat the Big day China.
> By the way, it's not just china , it's 16 more countries in 48 member NSG that opposed India's membership.



Do you mind naming those 16 countries?

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## Chinese-Dragon

Spring Onion said:


> for the red part Isn't it a bad bargain on the part of India?
> 
> I mean one way or the other India might get into NSG and as you said China would lose nothing even to let her into NSG, then why India is all ready to bow to US?



Yep, India sold their sovereignty and didn't even get the NSG seat they were promised. 

Bad deal for them, just like when they tried to use their master against us in 1962. They just have no idea what they are doing.

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## Indika

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India called the USA to come fight for them. Why does it feel like it has happened before?
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> India pleaded for US help against China in 1962 - Times of India
> 
> And just like before, the USA ended up using India as a pawn and a meat shield against China.


Whats new dint US use china against soviets. US has been using china for long time, only India is new.

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## ito

Areesh said:


> That is the case dear. Pakistan always knew there is very little chance of Pakistan getting NSG membership. Pakistan applied so that China can use it to veto India. Mission accomplished.



Pakistan was never a factor in India not getting NSG.

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## cloud4000

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yep, India sold their sovereignty and didn't even get the NSG seat they were promised.
> 
> Bad deal for them, just like when they tried to use their master against us in 1962. They just have no idea what they are doing.



Give us Indians some credit. We won't sell our sovereignty for membership in NSG.


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## Spring Onion

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yep, India sold their sovereignty and didn't even get the NSG seat they were promised.
> 
> Bad deal for them, just like when they tried to use their master against us in 1962. They just have no idea what they are doing.





eyeswideshut said:


> Whats new dint US use china against soviets. US has been using china for long time, only India is new.



 well in this new development IF India agreed to be used happily against China by US then it is India that is going to lose in the long run. Indian-American relations are not like US-Pak ones. Neither India can afford to lose so much unlike Pakistan who had already nothing to lose much. 

For years I had been saying and I will repeat it again here that US not going to tolerate another competitor in the field of economy in the shape of India.



ito said:


> Pakistan was never a factor in India not getting NSG.



Indeed. Which proves that those opposing India have concerns about Indian entry. US has nothing to lose to let India in but India would have to get feed by US for her engagements with China in that case.

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## danger007

ito said:


> Pakistan was never a factor in India not getting NSG.




actually pak trying to score some points in NSG events.. haven't you seen sartaz statement? n


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

eyeswideshut said:


> Whats new dint US use china against soviets. US has been using china for long time, only India is new.


The irony here is the Chinese have a far longer history of being mistreated by the Americans.
First during the Colonial era, they humiliated China as part of the 8-nation alliance and maintained a colonial enclave on mainland Chinese soil.

Despite these humiliations, Chinese jumped into American camp during cold war for being again mistreated by Soviets as a "Junior partner"

To this day America remains a hurdle to China's national and territorial integrity by preventing take over of Taiwan, despite considering Taiwan as Chinese territory.

And other minor mistreatment like blowing up Chinese embassy in Belgrade and getting away with espionage during Hainan Island incident, despite killing Chinese pilot.

In 2008, bullied into accepting India's NSG waiver, hence making China compromise on her national security by her own acceptance.

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## illusion8

Spring Onion said:


> well in this new development IF India agreed to be used happily against China by US then it is India that is going to lose in the long run. Indian-American relations are not like US-Pak ones. *Neither India can afford to lose so much *unlike Pakistan who had already nothing to lose much.
> 
> For years I had been saying and I will repeat it again here that US not going to tolerate another competitor in the field of economy in the shape of India.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Which proves that those opposing India have concerns about Indian entry. US has nothing to lose to let India in but India would have to get feed by US for her engagements with China in that case.



Lose what? The 70 billion dollars already invested by US companies in India..or the 100 billion dollars investment that's in the works by US companies?

The state of the art tech, or the proposed 500 billion trade ?

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## Areesh

ito said:


> Pakistan was never a factor in India not getting NSG.



At least it was an excuse by China to veto you.



Ranasikander said:


> Better not speculate about Pakistan when indias request to join nsg has been rejected. And its not just China , its 12 more countries that opposed India's request to join NSG.
> 
> India is blaming China for their own diplomatic failure, as a scape goat.



True. But China's position was that it wanted equal treatment for all countries applying for NSG membership.

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## illusion8

Syama Ayas said:


> The irony here is the Chinese have a far longer history of being mistreated by the Americans.
> First during the Colonial era, they humiliated China as part of the 8-nation alliance and maintained a colonial enclave on mainland Chinese soil.
> 
> Despite these humiliations, Chinese jumped into American camp during cold war for being again mistreated by Soviets as a "Junior partner"
> 
> To this day America remains a hurdle to China's national and territorial integrity by preventing take over of Taiwan, despite considering Taiwan as Chinese territory.
> 
> And other minor mistreatment like blowing up Chinese embassy in Belgrade and getting away with espionage during Hainan Island incident, despite killing Chinese pilot.
> 
> In 2008, bullied into accepting India's NSG waiver, hence making China compromise on her national security by her own acceptance.



Chinese and Pakistanis advising India against something inadvertently means that it's a good thing for India. The chinese pakistani nexus funda.

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## danger007

Spring Onion said:


> well in this new development IF India agreed to be used happily against China by US then it is India that is going to lose in the long run. Indian-American relations are not like US-Pak ones. Neither India can afford to lose so much unlike Pakistan who had already nothing to lose much.
> 
> For years I had been saying and I will repeat it again here that US not going to tolerate another competitor in the field of economy in the shape of India.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Which proves that those opposing India have concerns about Indian entry. US has nothing to lose to let India in but India would have to get feed by US for her engagements with China in that case.




If you come to that feeding point.. actually once pak advocate and act on behalf of US .. now china, china supporting not because of love but present chinese interests involving pak.. isn’t CPEC more favourable to china than Pakistan? ?? isn't Pakistani members advocating chinese naval or military sphere into neighbourhood? but when you ask Indians, we move closer but with caution...India - pak both are different... our priority is economy it is not in case of Pakistan..


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rain Man said:


> Sad to inform you that we don't give two hoots to what Churchill thinks.
> 
> Btw, we will get the NSG membership by the end of this year, just wait and watch.



Show some respect to your formal colonial master since you guys still use his language as your official language , and what make we give a damn to a person that his nation is merely a geographical expression to comment over Tibet  and I wish you luck to get your NSG membership and please don't vent you anger on China again this time

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## Loafer

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Show some respect to your formal colonial master since you guys still use his language as your official language , and what make we give a damn to a person that his nation is merely a geographical expression to comment over Tibet  and I wish you luck to get your NSG membership and please don't vent you anger on China again this time



English is Indo European language family. Indo not Chinese. We he right over all Indo family languages

India is a geographical expression is as much as Europe is an extension of Asia.

Churchill must be rolling in his grave when today London is 45% white and Pakistan holds 10 seats in Westminster and London Mayor is a Pakistani.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Britain-fought-say-unknown-warriors-WWII.html


No one vents anger on China. It's the chinaman who is creating obstacles for peaceful development of India and humanity. Chinese actions are against the interests and developments of all poor people in the world.


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## Jlaw

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yeah, the world is unfair, what is new?
> 
> The first 5 nuclear powers became the only legitimate nuclear powers under the NPT, the UN and International Law. And are also the same countries who form the UNSC P5.
> 
> Next you'll be asking us to reform the UNSC P5? (Oh wait... you've already been asking for that for over a decade...)



Yes, exactly. I've never heard of any board of directors in any company that want an extra member so their power will be reduced

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## Jlaw

Syama Ayas said:


> Hi @waz, I'm curious if this post violates the forum rules?


Sore loser. Can't rebuttal with facts so you are calling on moderator for help. Just like your forefathers calling on US for help in 1962

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## SQ8

Director General said:


> *Calling India an "anchor of stability" in the Asia Pacifc region, US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon also said what China was doing in South China Sea is "madness" and it wants New Delhi to play a major role in the Indian Ocean.*


In other words, the US wants India to be the bullwark to China; perhaps get into a war with them and provide the cannon fodder. To help India in being the US sheriff for South Asia, the US will assist in any way possible.

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## oprih

Here comes india's superhero to save the day of the suffering and crying indians.  At the end of the day, americans and indians will cry together because they are both a failure.

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## DesiGuy1403

Oscar said:


> In other words, the US wants India to be the bullwark to China; perhaps get into a war with them and provide the cannon fodder. To help India in being the US sheriff for South Asia, the US will assist in any way possible.



India really has a lot of reasons to take up US offer.
Whether we take up sides or not, China has already made us a target, directly & indirectly.

India has very few options.

Well played to US though. They knew how to press the correct buttons at the correct time.

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## SQ8

DesiGuy1403 said:


> India really has a lot of reasons to take up US offer.
> Whether we take up sides or not, China has already made us a target, directly & indirectly.
> 
> India has very few options.
> 
> Well played to US though. They knew how to press the correct buttons at the correct time.


China has made all of us a target. My foolish countrymen cannot see it and the Chinese cannot understand it without offence. That is more than a billion people who are running out of resources and space. They need someplace to go where they can continue their strip mining of resources to survive. Guess who is closest to them with abundant natural resources?

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## YouGotRouged

India needs to be really careful with this new found "big brother defending little brother" attitude from the US. 

Ofcourse treat all countries with equal diplomatic magnamity but remember that India's interests come first before any quid pro quo.


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## ito

Oscar said:


> China has made all of us a target. My foolish countrymen cannot see it and the Chinese cannot understand it without offence. That is more than a billion people who are running out of resources and space. They need someplace to go where they can continue their strip mining of resources to survive. Guess who is closest to them with abundant natural resources?



Even Pakistan has no option but to yield to Chinese. India is unyielding on Kashmir. And Kashmir for Pakistan is becoming an albatross, and Pakistan neither can abandon it. India being for more resourceful than Pakistan, Pakistan has no option but to side with China to take on India, and the price Pakistan may pay for this to Chinese could cost Pakistan its independency.

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## SQ8

ito said:


> Even Pakistan has no option but to yield to Chinese. India is unyielding on Kashmir. And Kashmir for Pakistan is becoming an albatross, and Pakistan neither can abandon it. India being for more resourceful than Pakistan, Pakistan has no option but to side with China to take on India, and the price Pakistan may pay for this to Chinese could cost Pakistan its independency.


Costing the independancy is folly we all make. No country is independant in its decisions otherwise it is North Korea and even they are dependant on the Chinese and measure their actions based on the US and SK.
India is not independent either, its decisions are made in lieu of its carefully ingrained and crafted "keep all happy" diplomacy that has in the past led it into compromising on critical issues to various countries. It is also not independent that it is still heavily dependant on imported energy and other critical goods that require it to provide either resources of its own in return or give diplomatic ground.

What we are talking about is total subjugation; which Pakistan may be heading for but that will not be the end of the satisfaction that the Chinese need(_they have no such word, again not hating the Chinese but giving the reality of sustaining their population_). India's fear of China is based on a wholly underwhelmed and tangential perception of their threat. China is not the threat to you 10 years from now, or 20 years and not in Trade or technology or in the traditional competitive sense; it is a threat when food and water starts going scarce and the Chinese are no longer able to bring in resources from other countries into their own. Then they will expand for space and even basic food..and for that they will really steamroll across India. Be it just from the north, or from both the north and the west.

After all, India would be stupid to think that a hostile Pakistan is more dangerous than a Pakistan which is full of Chinese military and controlled as a vassal state.
As for Kashmir, the issue is NOT.. again NOT the Kashmiris; it is the strategic position and the water resources. The IVT is not enough to allay Pakistani fears and India knows that. Pakistan wants a lot of guarantees that India is unwilling to give even a little; however, unless the two compromise at some point..they will soon find themselves facing a threat they have yet to even fathom.

Again, this does not imply that the Chinese are an enemy now.. or whether they hate us or have bad thoughts about us. They are friends to Pakistan and good trading partners to India; but when resources are scarce.. there are no friends or allies.

Just food and space to expand.

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## DesiGuy1403

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india...bal-support-against-india-at-nsg_1901780.html

Would this be the first fall out?

What happens if China looses it's case at UNCLOS against Philippines?
China has lot of things to worry about and it has given great reasons this year to really give it back to them with interest wherever it can.

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## Stephen Cohen

By helping India in different ways ; USA is letting the Chinese Know the
LIMITATIONS of their power

USA can support all Chinese rivals in Asia ie Japan - Vietnam --Philipines -Taiwan -India
and ASEAN countries

The question is what can China do in return

Will it seal a formal alliance with Russia ? or Iran

The Chinese are always measuring themselves against USA 

USA is showing them their limitations and " stature "

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## Indika

Oscar said:


> In other words, the US wants India to be the bullwark to China; perhaps get into a war with them and provide the cannon fodder. To help India in being the US sheriff for South Asia, the US will assist in any way possible.


Yes, even India knows that very well. US is trying to draw India into SCS conflict but India has so managed to stay away. Its game that both know what they are doing. US wants India to fight china and get into a mess. India wants to milk US as much as possible with least damage.

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## noksss

Chinese-Dragon said:


> India called the USA to come fight for them. Why does it feel like it has happened before?
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> India pleaded for US help against China in 1962 - Times of India
> 
> And just like before, the USA ended up using India as a pawn and a meat shield against China.



What happened man are you fine today ? why are these lines missing in your quote * (China Defeated USA + 16 allies)*

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## ito

Oscar said:


> Costing the independancy is folly we all make. No country is independant in its decisions otherwise it is North Korea and even they are dependant on the Chinese and measure their actions based on the US and SK.
> India is not independent either, its decisions are made in lieu of its carefully ingrained and crafted "keep all happy" diplomacy that has in the past led it into compromising on critical issues to various countries. It is also not independent that it is still heavily dependant on imported energy and other critical goods that require it to provide either resources of its own in return or give diplomatic ground.
> 
> What we are talking about is total subjugation; which Pakistan may be heading for but that will not be the end of the satisfaction that the Chinese need(_they have no such word, again not hating the Chinese but giving the reality of sustaining their population_). India's fear of China is based on a wholly underwhelmed and tangential perception of their threat. China is not the threat to you 10 years from now, or 20 years and not in Trade or technology or in the traditional competitive sense; it is a threat when food and water starts going scarce and the Chinese are no longer able to bring in resources from other countries into their own. Then they will expand for space and even basic food..and for that they will really steamroll across India. Be it just from the north, or from both the north and the west.
> 
> After all, India would be stupid to think that a hostile Pakistan is more dangerous than a Pakistan which is full of Chinese military and controlled as a vassal state.
> As for Kashmir, the issue is NOT.. again NOT the Kashmiris; it is the strategic position and the water resources. The IVT is not enough to allay Pakistani fears and India knows that. Pakistan wants a lot of guarantees that India is unwilling to give even a little; however, unless the two compromise at some point..they will soon find themselves facing a threat they have yet to even fathom.
> 
> Again, this does not imply that the Chinese are an enemy now.. or whether they hate us or have bad thoughts about us. They are friends to Pakistan and good trading partners to India; but when resources are scarce.. there are no friends or allies.
> 
> Just food and space to expand.



A good post from you. 

I feel the way India-US relations are evolving is one of interdependency. People in Pakistan think that US is popping up India as a hedge against China, conveniently forgetting that India is a billion plus market for US companies, a growing economy with stable democratic institutions, skilled workforce, a relatively good investment environment and certainly more friendly country as compared to China to US. US will be more comfortable doing business with India as compared to China. I see no such relation evolving between China and Pakistan.

The only way I guess to improve India and Pakistan relations are to keep Kashmir in the back burner and improve on other aspects that are less contentious to build trust before taking on Kashmir. I am sure Indians will not be against more water to Pakistan as they will be on Kashmir.

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## nair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> But since India sold their sovereignty to the USA in exchange for NSG support, we know India wants it badly enough to pay a big price for it. Modi offering a few nuclear reactors and industrial parks is nice, but not enough.



I have been reading several posts of you in this line..... What made you get yourself into this "troll mode" ?????(stealthy ofcourse)

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## dray

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Show some respect to your formal colonial master since you guys still use his language as your official language , and what make we give a damn to a person that his nation is merely a geographical expression to comment over Tibet  and I wish you luck to get your NSG membership and please don't vent you anger on China again this time



Last heard, Chinese are falling head over heels to learn English, maybe we can teach you. 

We will get NSG membership by the end of this year only, even if that means we have to arrange for disqualification of China from it because of rules violations in nuclear proliferation. 

And North Arunachal Pradesh will earn their freedom from Chinese occupation with the help of their friends and ideological brothers.


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## hembo

Strong words and weak actions have failed, so it's time to play tough with China

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...ed-s-time-play-tough-China.html#ixzz4D2ZDELj4

Well, one option is to suspend China from NSG groups on charges of non-adherence... ahem North-Korea, Pakistan... cough...


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Oscar said:


> China has made all of us a target. My foolish countrymen cannot see it and the Chinese cannot understand it without offence. That is more than a billion people who are running out of resources and space. They need someplace to go where they can continue their strip mining of resources to survive. *Guess who is closest to them with abundant natural resources?*


Russia"s Siberia and Kazakhstan.

When the day comes, Russian plan to use tactical nukes on Chinese military.



> The Implications of the New Doctrine ------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 5. (C) Zolotarev argued that, while the chances of a large-scale war breaking out are remote, China would most likely be the target of any preemptive nuclear strike. Most serious military planners dismissed any threat from NATO long ago, he posited. China still has a mass mobilization army, he said, and the Russian Far East is thinly populated, has little infrastructure, and a small Russian military contingent. With the Russian army restructured to rapidly respond to small-scale wars, the GOR would have to rely on its nuclear deterrent to prevent a Chinese attack. He admitted, however, that by declaring the right to launch a nuclear first strike, Russia appeared to be taking a step back from the spirit, if not the letter of its Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty Article VI commitments regarding nuclear disarmament.



https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09MOSCOW3138_a.html


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## Established_1965

Imran Khan said:


> wow what an game
> 
> but that country is US grand father
> largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.



China will be in more trouble than US, to be economically correct

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## Great Sachin

Lots of burning Assssss here


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## Malik Usman

Now Indian putting their words in other's mouth...........


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## Omega007

Malik Usman said:


> Now Indian putting their words in other's mouth...........



Where??


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## Devil Soul

Ahh Love Story of 2016....


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## illusion8

Oscar said:


> China has made all of us a target. My foolish countrymen cannot see it and the Chinese cannot understand it without offence. That is more than a billion people who are running out of resources and space. They need someplace to go where they can continue their strip mining of resources to survive. Guess who is closest to them with abundant natural resources?



Ideally, Pakistan should have aligned with a country with some degree of integrity, in lieu of the US, the Russians would have been a better bet.


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## SQ8

Syama Ayas said:


> Russia"s *Siberia and Kazakhstan*.
> 
> When the day comes, Russian plan to use tactical nukes on Chinese military.
> 
> 
> 
> https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09MOSCOW3138_a.html



I did not know that Siberia and Kazakhastan have massive fields where food grows just by throwing it on the ground.

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## Areesh

noksss said:


> Ya but that's better than blowing up someone right



Or burning someone alive like ehsan jaffery.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Oscar said:


> I did not know that Siberia and Kazakhastan have massive fields where food grows just by throwing it on the ground.


They have massive natural resources


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## RoadRunner401

cloud4000 said:


> What are you trying to say? That they are no takers for US debt? Well, China has been selling billions in US debt to boost its currency and it has no appreciable effect on US. So if China wants to sell its US debt, go right ahead. It will only be shooting itself in the foot.



L O L, I'll take it, you will come up with over a trillion dollars over night to offset the selling by the Chinese, to save the American economy.

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## noksss

Areesh said:


> Or burning someone alive like ehsan jaffery.


Or burning someone alive like Shama

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## Jlaw

Oscar said:


> Costing the independancy is folly we all make. No country is independant in its decisions otherwise it is North Korea and even they are dependant on the Chinese and measure their actions based on the US and SK.
> India is not independent either, its decisions are made in lieu of its carefully ingrained and crafted "keep all happy" diplomacy that has in the past led it into compromising on critical issues to various countries. It is also not independent that it is still heavily dependant on imported energy and other critical goods that require it to provide either resources of its own in return or give diplomatic ground.
> 
> What we are talking about is total subjugation; which Pakistan may be heading for but that will not be the end of the satisfaction that the Chinese need(_they have no such word, again not hating the Chinese but giving the reality of sustaining their population_). India's fear of China is based on a wholly underwhelmed and tangential perception of their threat. China is not the threat to you 10 years from now, or 20 years and not in Trade or technology or in the traditional competitive sense; it is a threat when food and water starts going scarce and the Chinese are no longer able to bring in resources from other countries into their own. Then they will expand for space and even basic food..and for that they will really steamroll across India. Be it just from the north, or from both the north and the west.
> 
> After all, India would be stupid to think that a hostile Pakistan is more dangerous than a Pakistan which is full of Chinese military and controlled as a vassal state.
> As for Kashmir, the issue is NOT.. again NOT the Kashmiris; it is the strategic position and the water resources. The IVT is not enough to allay Pakistani fears and India knows that. Pakistan wants a lot of guarantees that India is unwilling to give even a little; however, unless the two compromise at some point..they will soon find themselves facing a threat they have yet to even fathom.
> 
> Again, this does not imply that the Chinese are an enemy now.. or whether they hate us or have bad thoughts about us. They are friends to Pakistan and good trading partners to India; but when resources are scarce.. there are no friends or allies.
> 
> Just food and space to expand.




Indian population will overtake China in the next decade or so. India's land mass is one third of China. India's new job creation is not keeping up with their population growth. Population dividend will become population nightmare x4. 

It will be India who is a more threat to Pakistan and China as they need to expand for food and more space.


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## SQ8

Jlaw said:


> Indian population will overtake China in the next decade or so. India's land mass is one third of China. India's new job creation is not keeping up with their population growth. Population dividend will become population nightmare x4.
> 
> It will be India who is a more threat to Pakistan and China as they need to expand for food and more space.


I do not believe so. The India population is still not a match for the Chinese need for consumerism. Moreover, India's consumption levels are still nowhere near that of China's.



Syama Ayas said:


> They have massive natural resources


Food.

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## Spring Onion

illusion8 said:


> Lose what? The 70 billion dollars already invested by US companies in India..or the 100 billion dollars investment that's in the works by US companies?
> 
> The state of the art tech, or the proposed 500 billion trade ?



 there are many other important things other than money which actually will hit the money at the end of the day./

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rain Man said:


> Last heard, Chinese are falling head over heels to learn English, maybe we can teach you.
> 
> We will get NSG membership by the end of this year only, even if that means we have to arrange for disqualification of China from it because of rules violations in nuclear proliferation.
> 
> And North Arunachal Pradesh will earn their freedom from Chinese occupation with the help of their friends and ideological brothers.



Learn English from an Indian?  It has driven me nut when your people speak from call center, don't know what they said, I certainly don't want to fck up my brain to learn English from you guys...LMAO

Disqualify China by a country that failed NSG admission...allo wake up

And Sure South Tibet will be free from India if they want to have free water ..you can tell who will have the leverage .

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## dray

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Learn English from an Indian?  It has driven me nut when your people speak from call center, don't know what they said, I certainly don't want to fck up my brain to learn English from you guys...LMAO
> 
> Disqualify China by a country that failed NSG admission...allo wake up
> 
> And Sure South Tibet will be free from India if they want to have free water ..you can tell who will have the leverage .



As things stand, Beijing's stance flies in the face of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of which it is a signatory. China's big fear now is India could use the same ploy that Beijing used in Seoul at the NSG plenary and back The Hague Court's decision which is likely to go against China.

Highly-placed sources said that the global support for India's position at the NSG could well be leveraged by New Delhi to back the enforcement of 'The Hague Judgment' a scenario which could isolate China and could even trigger its exit from UNCLOS.

Informed sources said the focus now shifts from the NSG to the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague where a judgment is expected, which when enforced, could force China to give up land in favour of the Philippines.

China has launched a worldwide propaganda campaign enlisting academics, legal experts, diplomats and foreign governments stating that such legal proceedings are invalid. But this position of China's is contrary to the rules laid out by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of which China is a signatory. China claims that it has the support of 60 nations who believe that arbitration at The Hague is illegal.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/china-pulls-up-chief-negotiator-wang-qun.437192/page-3#ixzz4D6L4CqnV


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rain Man said:


> As things stand, Beijing's stance flies in the face of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of which it is a signatory. China's big fear now is India could use the same ploy that Beijing used in Seoul at the NSG plenary and back The Hague Court's decision which is likely to go against China.
> 
> Highly-placed sources said that the global support for India's position at the NSG could well be leveraged by New Delhi to back the enforcement of 'The Hague Judgment' a scenario which could isolate China and could even trigger its exit from UNCLOS.
> 
> Informed sources said the focus now shifts from the NSG to the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague where a judgment is expected, which when enforced, could force China to give up land in favour of the Philippines.
> 
> China has launched a worldwide propaganda campaign enlisting academics, legal experts, diplomats and foreign governments stating that such legal proceedings are invalid. But this position of China's is contrary to the rules laid out by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of which China is a signatory. China claims that it has the support of 60 nations who believe that arbitration at The Hague is illegal.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/china-pulls-up-chief-negotiator-wang-qun.437192/page-3#ixzz4D6L4CqnV



Believe me India don't have any leverage on China, you can back the Hague court's as much as you like but it will have no impact on China unless you claim that you can reinforce the court's decision in SCS with military  we're undeterred. And China has plenty of option if we decide to pi$$ of India if we like.


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## dray

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Believe me India don't have any leverage on China, you can back the Hague court's as much as you like but it will have no impact on China unless you claim that you can reinforce the court's decision in SCS with military  we're undeterred. And China has plenty of option if we decide to pi$$ of India if we like.



You are running out of options with the "*Kiss_of_the_Debt*"


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## khanz

In the long run it's dangerous to be U.S ally. India will be giving U.S military bases on their soil and yet they used to make fun of Pakistan for being a puppet and lack of sovereignty but now they have actually gone one even further than us to get their NSG support- the only true friend U.S will always support will be Israel.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rain Man said:


> You are running out of options with the "Kiss_of_the_Debt"



as matter of fact, block you guys from enter NSG is one of our option , of course we have more nasty option such as to make India dehydrated...


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## dray

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> as matter of fact, block you guys from enter NSG is one of our option , of course we have more nasty option such as to make India dehydrated...



Nope, you can't. I know your juvenile theory, and that has already been busted comprehensively. 

And we will be a member of NSG in this year only. Just wait and watch.


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## DesiGuy1403

khanz said:


> In the long run it's dangerous to be U.S ally .India will be giving U.S military bases on their soil and yet they used to make fun of pakistan for being a puppet and lack of sovereignty they have actually gone one even further than us to get thir NSG suppot- the only true friend U.S will always support will be israel.



Perhaps you should read "a lot" more about these deals.
These deals are not a one way street. Meaning, what India gives, it also gets the same in return from US.
If US uses India's facilities, India also gets to use US facilities.

With your country, it was always one way street, with US "paying" to use your services.

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## dray

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Believe me India don't have any leverage on China, you can back the Hague court's as much as you like but it will have no impact on China unless you claim that you can reinforce the court's decision in SCS with military  we're undeterred. And China has plenty of option if we decide to pi$$ of India if we like.



BTW, we want China to defy Hague court's verdict, the isolation of China will become easier.

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## khanz

DesiGuy1403 said:


> Perhaps you should read "a lot" more about these deals.
> These deals are not a one way street. Meaning, what India gives, it also gets the same in return from US.
> If US uses India's facilities, India also gets to use US facilities.
> 
> With your country, it was always one way street, with US "paying" to use your services.



I already know about the deal keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. We'll see what happens once your interests start to conflict. It's a shame you didn't learn from our example and are now doing same thing. Pakistan knows from experience you've just done a deal with the devil.We'll just say "i told you so" as they start using you as a front line for illegal wars, you start to get forced into conflicts you don't want to be a part of and start to slowly lose your sovereignty over time - It might as well be a one way street fact is that India using U.S bases is redundant I doubt the use of their bases will be as mutually beneficial to you as Indians like to claim while on the other hand you will probably see a very regular U.S military presence on your soil.
Despite Indo-Pak rivalry you are not an imperialist or warmongering nation nor do you (thankfully) have any conflict or rivalry outside of Pak/China so their bases are of little use-The Americans though are bent on world domination their country was built on conquest and expansionism and it's been in perpetual warfare for most of their existence.Now they are using you to surround China and further their dominance of Asia and the Indian Ocean.They will they will gain far from the deal then you.
There is a reason the British were able to colonize us and the white man conquered most of the world- they did it through divide and conquer,bribery and manipulation and once they arrive the Americans have habit of staying- Just ask your Japanese friends lol

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Oh nooooooo... China is held accountable for US's failure to support India in NSG membership.

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## DesiGuy1403

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Oh n China is held accountable for US's failure to support India in NSG membership.



Nope.
You are accountable for your actions of opposing India

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

DesiGuy1403 said:


> Nope.
> You are accountable for your actions of opposing India



Wrong, we're accountable of US's failure because no one supposedly capable to defy American's will, India is expecting that American's blessing is enough but never expect to be turn out like this  shame on you China.

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## Viking 63

hahahahha, another fcuked up American diplomat, suffering from barking dog syndrome !!!


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Rain Man said:


> BTW, we want China to defy Hague court's verdict, the isolation of China will become easier.



Maybe India has good reason to be afraid of of Hague Court's  but we fair not. How about India to be first to isolate China after the verdict, we dare India

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## neem456

NSG should just kick china out if its not playing by the mood of the rest of the world. Dont need such spoilers everywhere.



Irfan Baloch said:


> A
> 
> I think best course for them is to make a 2 member organisation and be happy with that.



No thank you.
And its not even indian position, infact our FM dont oppose pakistans entry, its the world who dont want to see in such prestigious organisations.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yep, India sold their sovereignty and didn't even get the NSG seat they were promised.
> 
> Bad deal for them, just like when they tried to use their master against us in 1962. They just have no idea what they are doing.



Its not the first time china opposing india. It opposed in 2008 waiver as well, but were bitch slapped by uncle sam and were told to fall in line.



Areesh said:


> At least it was an excuse by China to veto you.
> 
> 
> 
> True. But China's position was that it wanted equal treatment for all countries applying for NSG membership.



And NSG replied that not all countries are worthy of being INDIA.
Hence indian case was rigorously discussed for 2 days, whle pakistani file was not even touched with a stick.



khanz said:


> In the long run it's dangerous to be U.S ally. India will be giving U.S military bases on their soil and yet they used to make fun of Pakistan for being a puppet and lack of sovereignty but now they have actually gone one even further than us to get their NSG support- the only true friend U.S will always support will be Israel.



Pakistan is being made fun of by the world not becoz pakistan gave bases to them. USA has bases all around the world in many nations, thats perfectly fine.
Fun is being made of the fact that pakistan allow bases and allowed them to use it to kill their own people in return of USAID.

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## CHD




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## oprih

Why is india always the loser in everything,it looks like indians need to pray to their mother cow harder.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

After China’s claim that the plenary meeting of Nuclear Suppliers Group in Seoul did not discuss accession of any specific country, Minister of State for External Affairs General V K Singh today expressed surprise over media reports that Beijing had blocked India’s bid for entry in the elite grouping.

“The speculation doing the rounds in media regarding China’s protest over NSG membership to India is not true,” he said on the sidelines of a function here.

Singh’s remarks came a day after China accused the US of ignoring facts over India not getting entry into the NSG and claimed that the plenary meeting of the elite grouping in Seoul did not discuss the accession of any specific country.

China’s assertion came in response to the remarks by US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon that India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition.

Singh said the NSG meeting was held behind closed doors.

“Whether China had opposed India’s bid or not could be told only by those present in the closed-door meeting,” he said.

Singh said deliberations held behind closed doors could not be made public and added that India has been trying for NSG membership since 2008.

On a query about relations with neighbouring countries, he said India was making continuous efforts in this direction.

He said due to better ties, India could talk to Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia and China any time.

Regarding Pakistan, he said relations improve through talks, therefore, instead of negative approach, India maintains a positive gesture.

Singh said in Pakistan, army, terrorist organisations and the government were running their own system.

“It is not clear, who is running the government in Pakistan. We can talk to the elected government, therefore our positive approach is not giving expected results,” he said.

On whether India’s stand towards Pakistan was soft, he said New Delhi was doing whatever was necessary and expected.

-----------------
Damn I'm so envy that China blocked India's NSG memberships, now just a wet dream for me

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## chanikya

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> After China’s claim that the plenary meeting of Nuclear Suppliers Group in Seoul did not discuss accession of any specific country, Minister of State for External Affairs General V K Singh today expressed surprise over media reports that Beijing had blocked India’s bid for entry in the elite grouping.
> 
> “The speculation doing the rounds in media regarding China’s protest over NSG membership to India is not true,” he said on the sidelines of a function here.
> 
> Singh’s remarks came a day after China accused the US of ignoring facts over India not getting entry into the NSG and claimed that the plenary meeting of the elite grouping in Seoul did not discuss the accession of any specific country.
> 
> China’s assertion came in response to the remarks by US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon that India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition.
> 
> Singh said the NSG meeting was held behind closed doors.
> 
> “Whether China had opposed India’s bid or not could be told only by those present in the closed-door meeting,” he said.
> 
> Singh said deliberations held behind closed doors could not be made public and added that India has been trying for NSG membership since 2008.
> 
> On a query about relations with neighbouring countries, he said India was making continuous efforts in this direction.
> 
> He said due to better ties, India could talk to Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia and China any time.
> 
> Regarding Pakistan, he said relations improve through talks, therefore, instead of negative approach, India maintains a positive gesture.
> 
> Singh said in Pakistan, army, terrorist organisations and the government were running their own system.
> 
> “It is not clear, who is running the government in Pakistan. We can talk to the elected government, therefore our positive approach is not giving expected results,” he said.
> 
> On whether India’s stand towards Pakistan was soft, he said New Delhi was doing whatever was necessary and expected.
> 
> -----------------
> Damn I'm so envy that China blocked India's NSG memberships, now just a wet dream for me



That's called statesmanship !! By the way what happened to you ??

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

chanikya said:


> That's called statesmanship !! By the way what happened to you ??



I'm sad and angry , I thought we Chinese dare Indian again...but I was wrong

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## shah1398

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Damn I'm so envy that China blocked India's NSG memberships, now just a wet dream for me






Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I'm sad and angry , I thought we Chinese dare Indian again...but I was wrong



U lied to us....I though we were friends....Krich (sound of a small heart when it broke)..... 
Awesome way to finish the fairy tale...Simple loved it

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## chanikya

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I'm sad and angry , I thought we Chinese dare Indian again...but I was wrong



Haha what buddy, is it necessary that we always should fight??


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

chanikya said:


> Haha what buddy, is it necessary that we always should fight??



Not really, peace

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## Chinese-Dragon

Lies after lies after lies.

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## neem456

VK Singh is a well known idiot.


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## Tamilnadu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Lies after lies after lies.


Yes,now you guys can stop pulling your chief negotiator,i hope he still has some elasticity still left in him.

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## manlion

Chinese-Dragon
Damn I'm so envy that China blocked India's NSG memberships, now just a wet dream for me


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## kasper95

Tamilnadu said:


> Yes,now you guys can stop pulling your chief negotiator,i hope he still has some elasticity still left in him.


I see what you did there.;-P


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

manlion said:


> Chinese-Dragon
> Damn I'm so envy that China blocked India's NSG memberships, now just a wet dream for me


Ooouch, I guess India like front stab better than backstab

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## Tamilnadu

“The speculation doing the rounds in media regarding China’s protest over NSG membership to India is not true,” he said on the sidelines of a function here.

Singh said the NSG meeting was held behind closed doors.

“Whether China had opposed India’s bid or not could be told only by those present in the closed-door meeting,” he said.

The above is from the OP,he is being diplomatic.

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## chanikya

neem456 said:


> VK Singh is a well known idiot.



This comment can be avoided bro!! He is a patriotic Indian



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Ooouch, I guess India like front stab better than backstab



On a lighter note which one does China like



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Not really, peace



Is it not really or piece


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## Mysticbuddy

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Oh nooooooo... China is held accountable for US's failure to support India in NSG membership.


Don't worry to get into MCTR China will have to kiss so many rear that they will call them racist as well.

A side note, I think what India and Pakistan are doing to each other on this issue is detrimental to each other. They are both acting foolish. 

I think India should have asked for pakistans support for the membership and should have offered support for their membership. They didn't do it since they had major support already but rather Pakistan should have done this out of its own. Right now, India is already viewed as responsible and respectable nuclear power. It's path to membership is not difficult.


But on the other hand Pakistan, could have got the support from India and could have the roadmap to the membership. I believe that it might have not been possible in the first go. But later down the road it would have been easier for them. 

Pakistan needs this more than India does. India already has an exception built into it and it's a one time exception. They already enjoy the nuclear commerce with NSG members. But Pakistan is yet to not only get into that part of the business but rather the basic issue is the legitemancy of their nuclear actions.

Pakistans past has been full of fiascos on the nuclear front. Starting from the Bill Clinton to the pakistans nuclear father to gadaffi incident to the bush and Obama had all raised red flags over the Pakistan as a nuclear state. An entry into the NSG could be the end of all this. @Oscar


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## Imran Khan

i can apply ? i am very good in bla bla as you all know

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## Nilgiri

Kudos to the mods making one thread out of all the multiple ones created


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## Local_Legend

*First batch of nuclear fuel pellets from Russia to arrive in India in July-end*




*New Delhi:* The first batch of nuclear fuel pellets — over 60 tonnes — to be supplied to India by Russia is expected to be delivered by the end of July, the Russian suppliers have said.

The pellets are expected to be delivered 26-29 July, said officials from TVEL, the fuel company of Russian atomic power corporation Rosatom.

The fuel is meant for the pressurized heavy-water reactors already functioning in India.

"Technical acceptance of the first batch of pellets to be supplied in 2016 to the Indian Nuclear Fuel Complex (NFC) has been successfully completed at the Machine Engineering Plant of TVEL," Andrew Pyrinov, head of the department of technical control of the Machine Engineering Plant, told _IANS_.




Representational image, Getty images

Technical Acceptance is the procedure to check if there are any defects in products. The extensive programme involves checking of all technical documentation by the buyer, which in this case is India.

The programme included the presence of NFC representatives during the production of fuel pellets and storage of finished products.

Pyrinov said the acceptance was completed without any inquiries from the Indian side.

A long-term contract for the supply of fuel pellets for the Indian nuclear power plants was concluded on February 11, 2009 in Mumbai between JSC TVEL and the Department of Atomic Energy, Government of India.

The Russian company was the first to sign a long term contract to supply nuclear fuel to India's PHWR reactors after the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) had removed the restrictions on the supply of uranium, reactors and technology to the India on 6 September, 2008.

The first delivery of nuclear fuel to the Nuclear Fuel Complex in Hyderabad (India) took place in spring 2009. The fuel pellets made in Elektrostal, Russia are used in Indian nuclear reactors.

The Nuclear Fuel Complex was established 1971 as a major industrial unit of Department of Atomic Energy, for supplying nuclear fuel to the plants.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/firs...a-to-arrive-in-india-in-july-end-2869082.html


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## footmarks

Dungeness said:


> Follow the rules even if they are are not to your liking, or just don't be part of it at all. You shouldn't really cheery pick, and get mad with someone who told you this is a basket deal. What makes India think it deserve to be the only exception to the rule?



Talk to me about this after ruling by international court on South Philipines sea dispute.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yeah, the world is unfair, what is new?
> 
> The first 5 nuclear powers became the only legitimate nuclear powers under the NPT, the UN and International Law. And are also the same countries who form the UNSC P5.
> 
> Next you'll be asking us to reform the UNSC P5? (Oh wait... you've already been asking for that for over a decade...)



Of course, in any case out of the 5 "self-proclaimed" legitimate powers,4 support us on NPT as well as UNSC seat. It is the only other teenager country who is insecure.


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## dadeechi

*What Modi wants from visit to SA*
News / 06 Jul '16, 7:38pm
*Sanjay Kapoor, Delhi
India’s bid for membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group will be at the top of the agenda for Prime Minister Narendra Modi, writes Sanjay Kapoor.*

When Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits South Africa this week, the issue that will be of the greatest strategic importance in bilateral discussions from his perspective will be India’s candidature to become a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). The Indian Prime Minister will use his visit as an opportunity to lobby the South African Government to support India’s bid, which has been a top foreign policy priority for the Indian Government in recent months.






President Jacob Zuma and the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. File picture: Manish Swarup. Credit: AP

At the recent NSG meeting in Seoul, India’s attempts to get into the 48 member Group were rebuffed. The NSG, which seeks to prevent nuclear proliferation by keeping a check on the export of material, equipment and technology that can lead to the making of a nuclear bomb, made it clear that they did not want to have a country that was not a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) or Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT). India had got an exclusive waiver in 2008, but was keen to get into the Group to ensure its interests were protected.

The refusal of the NSG to accommodate India has come as a rude shock to the personalized foreign policy of India’s itinerant Prime Minister Narendra Modi. He had been on a whistle stop tour of five countries in seven days ranging from Qatar to Switzerland and Mexico, with Washington thrown in between, but failed to garner support from many other countries that had reservations on the issue of the NPT. Switzerland, which promised to back India during Modi’s visit to Berne, was found doing a volte face during the Seoul meet.

Most of the BRICS countries which include China, South Africa and Brazil, did not support India’s candidature. For this rejection, India has directed its ire at China. Immediately after the news of India’s failure emerged, India’s foreign office blamed “one country” for its discomfiture. Indian journalists who traveled to the South Korean capital were told that the country was backed by “consensus minus one,” which means that 47 out of 48 countries were for its inclusion and only China was holding out. A closer reading of the happenings suggests that at least 10 countries, including South Africa, had misgivings about India’s entry as they all felt it would create a wrong precedent.


Much before the Seoul plenary meet, diplomats from the dissenting countries in Delhi were quite candid about their opposition. They knew, too, that Switzerland was unlikely to play ball with India. The moot question then is why did the Indian government decide to push for NSG membership when clearly there was no consensus around their candidature? Why were they so hopeful? Commentators hint at miscalculation and misreading of global politics. Some blame the PM for being a victim of his own hubris. The truth is that India was banking too much on the US to change the nature of support in the 48 member group, remembering that the group was created at its behest to stop India from enlarging its nuclear weapons programme after it tested its nuclear bomb in 1974.

After that India managed to get a complete waiver at the NSG when it signed the civilian nuclear deal with the US. Quite evidently 2016 was different, as President Barack Obama refused to replicate his predecessor George W Bush’s aggressive diplomacy to get India in the NSG. Save for expressing pious words that New Delhi should get into the nuclear Group, it did not work the phones to get India in. Otherwise there would not have been a situation where, according to Chinese sources, ten countries opposed India’s entry. What has taken Indian diplomats by surprise is why the US did not really stick its neck out even when India had committed to purchasing six Westinghouse Nuclear reactors from the US. A US State Department official had hinted that the process to induct India had been initiated and it could be part of the Group before the end of 2016. To buttress this point, the NSG has announced that it would appoint a special envoy and the outgoing head of the Group, Rafael Grossi, to negotiate with all those countries that have inhibitions about inducting non-signatories of the NPT.

It is not that India was not expecting China to stonewall its membership. They had hoped that at the last moment they would back off to preserve bilateral gains that have accrued to both sides over the last few years. India’s trade with China exceeds US$70 billion. The Indian PM flew to Tashkent to attend the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (Asia’s NATO), which was largely meant to beseech Chinese President Xi Jinping to make a “fair and objective assessment” of India’s NSG membership request. Seemingly the Chinese President was not impressed with Modi’s charm.

China has occupied the high moral ground by stating that those who haven’t signed the NPT should not become part of the group. And if indeed a process was being initiated then it should allow Pakistan too, which has also not signed the NPT and is a nuclear weapon state to join NSG.

It was China that provided, in a clandestine manner, technology and material to help Pakistan become a nuclear power in the 1990’s. Expectedly, Pakistan has taken credit for tripping up India’s chances. What did the Pakistanis do? They did not try to collect frequent flier miles like the Indians did. On the contrary, their foreign policy advisor, Sartaj Aziz, made 11 phone calls to members of the NSG, and their National Security Advisor cautioned the world about the dark US-India conspiracy to belittle China and Russia. The rest of the heavy lifting in the Seoul meeting was done by the Chinese who effectively closed the door on India - until it becomes a signatory of the NPT.

After this debacle, temperatures are rising in Delhi. There has been a campaign to boycott Chinese goods and suggestions are also coming from policy hawks to toughen the narrative towards Beijing, including confronting it in all possible theatres, including the South China Sea.

Even though Modi may be facing an uphill battle on NSG membership given China’s firm position on the matter, he will likely use the opportunity to lay out India’s case for NSG membership when he meets President Jacob Zuma this week.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/what-modi-wants-from-visit-to-sa-2042506

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## dadeechi

*SA backs India’s bid for full NSG membership*
Politics / 08 Jul '16, 2:10pm
*Shannon Ebrahim, Foreign Editor*
Johannesburg - Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi took many by surprise when he thanked President Jacob Zuma for South Africa's support for India's bid for full membership in the Nuclear Suppliers Group in his noon address to the media at the Union Buildings on Friday.

*“I would like to thank President Zuma for South Africa’s support for India’s membership of the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group. We know we can count on the active support of our friends like South Africa,” to which Zuma responded with a warm nod.*





President of South Africa Jacob Zuma (L) shaking hands with Prime Minister of India Narendra Modi (R) during a welcoming ceremony at the Union Buildings in Pretoria. Narendra Modi is on a two-day official visit to South Africa, during which he will attend official talks with Jacob Zuma. EPA/GCIS/ELMOND JIYANE/HANDOUT. Credit: EPA
Modi a wizard of foreign policy

Even the Indian journalists who had traveled to South Africa to cover Modi's visit were caught off guard by the announcement, as South Africa had previously expressed its reservations about India's bid for full membership as it is not a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

India was recently unsuccessful in winning over unanimous support for its bid at the NSG meeting in Seoul. It was one of Modi's main priorities in his visit to South Africa to convince Zuma to back India's bid before the next NSG meeting in October.


Modi's plan was to use his one on one meeting with Zuma to secure South Africa's support. It seems Modi was successful with Zuma, as he has been in most of his lobbying efforts with foreign heads of state over the past six months as he has zigzagged the globe in a concerted effort to mobilize support for India's bid.

The reason why inclusion in the NSG is so important to India is that it makes access to nuclear technology and the purchase of nuclear material significantly easier and cheaper.

Pakistan has engaged in vociferous behind the scenes lobbying against India's bid, as this would create a double standard which seriously disadvantages other nuclear states. In order for India to succeed in achieving full membership in the 48 member group, all members will have to be unanimous in their decision to accept India.

It is highly unlikely that China will ever agree to India's admission given its steadfast opposition, which it says is based on a matter of principle.

An editorial in China's state-run Global Times said recently,”Since its foundation in 1975, all NSG members shall be NPT signatories. This has become the primary principle of the organisation. Now India wants to be the first exception to join the NSG without signing the NPT. It is morally legitimate for China and other members to upset India's proposal in defense of principles,” Referring to US backing for India's bid, the editorial stated, “U.S. backing adds the biggest impetus to India's ambition. By cozying up to India, Washington's India policy actually serves the purpose of containing China.”

http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/sa-backs-indias-bid-for-full-nsg-membership-2043398

*South Africa endorses India's candidature to NSG*
Friday 8 July 2016 15:28

Tshepo Ikaneng





India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi is engaging in bilateral talks with President Jacob Zuma at the Union Buildings.(SABC)


*South Africa has endorsed India's candidature to become a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). *The NSG seeks to prevent nuclear proliferation by keeping a check on the export of material, equipment and technology that can lead to the making of a nuclear bomb.

President Jacob Zuma is hosting his Indian counterpart Prime Minister Narendra Modi who is on a two-day state visit to the country. The two leaders also discussed expanding trade now standing at over 94 billion rand. 

Trade is currently skewed in India's favour with South Africa exporting about 41 billion rand worth of goods while importing just over 53 billion rand worth of goods and services.

Modi lobbied Pretoria to support their bid to become a member of the Nuclear Supplies Group. Previous attempts by New Dehli to get into the 48 member Group have been rebuffed by mainly China because Dehli is not a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. *South Africa also had reservations.*

* However during bilateral talks with President Zuma at the Union Buildings, Prime Minister Modi secured a major victory with Pretoria now backing their membership bid. 

Prime Minister Modi says, "President Zuma and I agreed at the need to work closely on global challenges. I thank the President for South Africa support to India's membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We know we can count on your active support of our friends like South Africa."*

Modi is visiting four African countries to bolster economic trade with the continent. He backed South Africa's initiatives to diversify its exports to the Asian state. 

The two countries have identified new areas for market access in Defence, Deep Mining,Renewable Energy and Health sectors. President Zuma has emphasised the need for greater cooperation between the two BRICS member countries to build financial institutions such as the BRICS Development Bank.

President Zuma says, "India, through its representative, Honourable K.V. Kamath is shaping the New Development Bank (BRICS BANK) to be a formidable player in financing much needed infrastructure in Africa and the rest of the developing world. As South Africa, we hope to open the first regional centre of the New Development Bank dedicated to infrastructure projects in Africa." 

India and South Africa have also agreed to scale up cooperation in the defence and security sector. Prime Minister Modi says as regional powerhouses they need modern defence technologies to respond to global security challenges. 

"In India this is one of the sectors witnessing a complete transformation. It offers opportunities in defence trade and also to respond to global and regional demands." 

Meanwhile, Small Business Development Minister Lindiwe Zulu says there is a lot to learn from India's celebrated entrepreneurial spirit which is a cornerstone of that country's impressive economic growth.

Minister Zulu says, "The Prime Minister indicated that their economic development depends on small and medium enterprises. Financial support from banks which would work well with us because many of our small enterprises suffer access to finance."

Prime Minister Modi will conclude his state visit in Durban on Saturday where he will embark on a symbolic and historic tour - following in the footsteps of pre-eminent leader of the Indian Independence Movement in then British - ruled India Mahatma Gandhi. KwaZulu-Natal is home to the largest Indian diaspora in the world. 


South Africa is exporting about R41 billion worth of goods and importing just over R53 billion worth of goods and services. 

However, the trade balance is heavily skewed in India's favour. Addressing the media, President Zuma says South Africa and India will cooperate closely to build financial institutions such as the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) Development Bank. 

“India, through its representative, Honourable K.V. Kamath, is shaping the New Development Bank (BRICS bank) to be a formidable player in financing much needed infrastructure in Africa and the rest of the developing world. As South Africa, we hope to open the first regional centre of the New Development Bank dedicated to infrastructure projects in Africa.”

*Click on the video for a related story: *








How do these two BRICS countries stack up against each other?
Data source: World Bank - data.worldbank.org - year 2015

*Land Area (sq. Km)*
2,500,0002,000,0001,500,0001,000,000500,0000South AfricaIndia
*Population (total)*
1,300,000,0001,200,000,0001,100,000,0001,000,000,000900,000,000800,000,000700,000,000600,000,000500,000,000400,000,000300,000,000200,000,000100,000,0000South AfricaIndia
India and South Africa are both members of the BRICS group of emerging markets which includes: Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.


India, in size, is larger than South Africa with a land mass of 2.9million square kilometers compared to South Africa's 1.2million square kilometers.



India's population dwarfs South Africa at more than 1.3 billion people squeezed into an area of land that's only more than twice our size. That means there are about 440 people per square kilometer in India which is ten times more than our 45 people per square kilometer.

312,797,576,594
South Africa's GDP in US$
2,073,542,978,209
India's GDP in US$
India's GDP (in 2015) was immensely larger than South Africa's at more than 2 trillion US dollars compared to ours which was just over 312 billion US dollars. 


http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/7572d5...a-endorses-Indias-candidature-to-NSG-20160708

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## dadeechi

*After the NSG Debacle, Here Comes the Spin*
By Satyabrata Pal on 04/07/2016 • 5 Comments




*The claims made by apologists for the government about why India needs to rush its membership of the NSG simply don’t add up*




See how I spin. Credit: Reuters

The Nuclear Suppliers Group plenary in Seoul was a debacle for India. Countries of our standing in the world rarely suffer such public humiliation, because they have skilled diplomatic services, as India does, which assess the importance of an international objective to national interests, gauge very carefully the likelihood of success, prepare the ground without fanfare, and commit national prestige to a public pursuit only when nothing has been left to chance. Exceptions are made only when what is at stake is of such supreme importance or urgency that a gamble is worth the risk. These precepts, which all mature nations follow in their foreign policy, were abandoned in the government’s strange and sudden infatuation with the NSG. We were, as Shakespeare said of lust, mad in pursuit; it ended, as he said it does, with the expense of spirit in a waste of shame.

This was a scandal, but though the prime minister gave his first television interview in office soon after to a programme that is usually the last refuge of scandals, he was not even asked the obvious and crucial questions. Why was membership of the NSG so important? If it was, why did we rush into it, expecting a decision to be taken within weeks of asking for it? What were we doing over the six years since the United States gave India its benison for the NSG, as well as the MTCR, the Australia Group and the Wassenaar Arrangement? And why, when China refused to budge, in the company of others, did we single it out for public criticism in official statements, not once but repeatedly, turning this now into a tussle between them and us, a win for one down the line an inevitable loss of face for the other. This is the nightmare scenario that diplomats try to avoid. The more powerful the country that loses, the more certain that it will exact a price, then or later. Does joining the NSG justify getting into a showdown with China over it?

*Tall claims on ENR*

In articles of absolutely mesmerising spin, apologists for the government now argue that the 2011 amendment to the NSG guidelines – which excluded countries outside the NPT from trade in enrichment and reprocessing (ENR), and therefore qualified what had been an unconditional waiver for India – was a “wake-up call”; unless India was in, other changes could be made to the waiver in the future which it could not block. Secondly, that membership became urgent because the principal suppliers wanted it, and it was essential to move forward on contracts after India committed, as part of its Intended Nationally Determined Commitments (INDC) in the context of the Paris summit on climate change in 2015, to generate 63 GWe from nuclear power by 2032.

On the first argument, the insinuation is that those on the watch in 2011 were sleeping on the job, and snored through the wake-up call, forcing their more alert successors into the unedifying running of the Brahma bull into the china shop that we have seen now. This would have been plausible if this government had not taken office in 2014: two years is a long time for wise virgins, not least because Obama the bridegroom twice tried to shake India out of its slumber. The joint statements issued in September 2014 and January 2015 reiterated his support for India’s “early application and eventual membership” in the NSG, as well as the other three groups. This was not enough to break our torpor. The “early application” came a year and a half later.

Secondly, the 2011 amendments to the NSG guidelines were _sui generis_. As was reported extensively when negotiations in the NSG on the waiver came down to the wire, a group of NPT purists – Austria, Ireland, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway and Switzerland – held out for three conditions: there would be a periodic review of India’s compliance with its non-proliferation pledges, the waiver would not cover trade in enrichment and reprocessing, and it would lapse if India resumed nuclear tests. India accepted a review, since it had nothing to hide, the purists accepted our voluntary moratorium on testing, and were coerced into backing off on ENR, since we insisted that the waiver should be unconditional or “clean”.

*ENR therefore was the only reservation these countries still harboured, and they took the first opportunity they had to amend the guidelines, so that what India got from the waiver was taken away by the revision. They could not have done this *without the consent of all the others in the NSG*, even those who later said that they would honour the original terms of the waiver, ignoring the change. That remains to be seen. We have incorporated the other changes made between 2011 and 2013 to the NSG guidelines in our own laws, so clearly we have no difficulties with them.*

The crucial difference now is that over the last five years, we have signed agreements for the supply of fuel with Australia, Canada and Kazakhstan, three out of the ten largest producers in the world, and either have awarded contracts for reactors, or are negotiating them, with Russian, US and French companies. A minimum of five major members of the NSG now have enormous stakes in ensuring that the terms of the waiver are not changed in any way that could jeopardise their interests. A chance of any further revision that is India-specific is now remote, apart from the fact that there is no area of trade with India, other than ENR, on which any member of the NSG has reservations.

*Equally, however, given the negotiating history, we would be unable to get a consensus in the group to turn the guidelines on ENR back to accommodate us. Membership, therefore, gives us nothing. It means that India would be the only member of the group not allowed to trade as of right with all others in all aspects of the nuclear cycle. That is a second-class membership.*

*Faulty maths on climate change *

The second argument, that membership was essential because of India’s commitments in the Paris agreement on climate change, was first put out as a veiled threat in the official statement issued after the NSG plenary ended. It made the astonishing claim that India’s application for membership had “acquired an immediacy” after we set a target of “40% non-fossil power generation capacity by 2030” in our INDC, and an “early positive decision by the NSG would have allowed us to move forward on the Paris Agreement”. In other words, without being members of the NSG, we might have to renege on our commitments.

This petulance did not become a country like India. And the special pleading since then has been very frugal with the truth. The fact is that in our INDC, presented by this government, it had said that its plans for nuclear power would go forward “if supply of fuel is ensured.” That is not now a constraint. None of the major suppliers with which India now has agreements has made membership of the NSG a condition for continuing contracts. So supply of fuel is ensured, and that was the principal proviso the government placed on meeting the target it announced.

The other problem, stated elliptically elsewhere in the INDC, is of course finance, and that would be massive. Price negotiations for the six Westinghouse AP1000 reactors we have agreed to buy have not yet begun, but there were huge overruns on the two now being built in the US. They were contracted for in 2008 for $8 billion, rose to $14 billion, and current estimates are that they will end up costing $21 billion. Given escalation of costs by the time our contract is finalised, and the padding that will be inevitable to cater for the provisions of our Nuclear Liability Act, even in the most giddily optimistic scenario, the six reactors will cost India a minimum of $63 billion to produce 6000 MW. However, the US think-tank Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis did a study in March this year in which it estimated that the six units would cost India between $95 and $170 billion, the first unit would start to produce power by 2029 at the earliest, and the tariffs would be insupportable for the consumer.

If the government plans to contract with foreign suppliers for new reactors to generate 30 GWe, as its apologists claim, and the estimates of the think-tank are realistic, the outlay will be between $475 and $850 billion. Not more than one or two would be ready by the target date of 2032, and the financial burden, for the government and the consumer, would be back-breaking. These, therefore, are the real problems that the government must confront and place before the people: is nuclear power, generated on this scale from imported plants, fiscally responsible or even sustainable? Even if the government finds the money, the imposition in tariffs on the consumer would be huge and unfair. And since the target of 63 GWe cannot possibly be met by 2032, how does it plan to honour its INDC? None of these problems will be solved by membership of the NSG. It simply is not germane.

_Satyabrata Pal is a former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan_

http://thewire.in/48006/after-the-nsg-debacle-here-comes-the-spin/

*Why this fuss about NSG membership? *
TS Gopi Rethinaraj





Bright future: For India's nuclear programme




India needs technological help to build light water reactors, for which the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group is irrelevant

The decision of the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group (NSG) to deny India membership to its club is hardly surprising despite the government employing its diplomatic muscle in the run up to the group’s plenary meeting in Seoul this month.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s personal pleas to leaders of important countries, including China, certainly helped build broad support among NSG members for India. However, China’s resolute opposition (which is quite independent of Pakistan’s obstinacy) has ensured keeping India outside the NSG tent for now.

While the Prime Minister cannot be faulted for embarking on ambitious foreign policy goals, it is puzzling why he risked his personal reputation by hitching India’s diplomatic horse to a wrong cart. NSG membership, while desirable, is an issue of marginal importance to India’s nuclear energy development.

*NSG’s exaggerated relevance*
After the grand bargain following the nuclear détente with the US in 2005, India has gained substantially from the NSG waiver and partial safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in 2008 without having to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) and compromise its nuclear weapons programme.

There is already enough leeway for India to deal with nuclear vendor countries bilaterally for importing uranium, reactors, and fuel cycle technologies. Hence seeking formal membership to NSG even before fully exploiting the benefits of the 2008 grand bargain appears to be an unnecessary distraction from pursuing more important strategic objectives.

The failed attempt in Seoul, however, presents India an opportunity for a hardnosed evaluation of priorities in the nuclear sector and to undertake steps to recover lost ground. In any case, a NSG membership is not going to make countries rush to India with nuclear reactor orders.

Only a few countries with deep pockets have sustained their interest in building nuclear power plants after the Fukushima disaster. The most popular choice for new builds is light water reactors (LWRs) for which India itself will have to depend on countries such as Russia, France, US and Japan.

The heavy water reactor (HWRs) technology that India could potentially export with or without NSG membership is fading into the sunset because of its declining share in the global reactor fleet.

HWRs may be of interest to countries that aspire to build nuclear weapons under a civilian cover, but it is unlikely that India will show any enthusiasm to export reactors to countries with dubious reputations. Obstacles for import of specific technologies could be overcome through strategic bilateral engagement with relevant nuclear vendor countries.

Hence India is better off limiting its civilian nuclear engagement with Russia, France, the US, and Japan while also preserving the indigenous expertise in HWRs and associated fuel cycle technologies. While the domestic nuclear programme is testimony to India’s sustained efforts to preserve its technological independence during the sanctions era, there is nothing sacrosanct about it.

*Changing technological realities*
Re-examination of nuclear technology options and policy correction in order to adjust to new realities is not a sign of weakness. India will have to use the present window of opportunity (for which NSG membership is immaterial) to obtain critical technology transfers from friendly countries to manage future uncertainties.

This is what the French and Japanese did earlier during 1960s and 1970s and what the Chinese seem to be doing skilfully now. Letting the bitterness of past experience come in the way of present choices and self-delusion about the capability of the indigenous nuclear programme to meet short and medium term energy demand will end up costing dearly in the long run.

Peter Senge in his classic _Fifth Discipline_ argued that the hallmark of successful organisations is constant learning and willingness to change when faced with new realities and uncertainties. There is nothing wrong in re-examining the vision and roadmap that was laid out for India’s nuclear energy development during a bygone era.

If Homi Bhabha were alive today he would have had no hesitation in effecting a course correction if it served the interests of national energy security and India’s broader geopolitical goals.

This is not to suggest giving up on the hard-won indigenous nuclear capability. India is now a world leader in HWR development after the Canadians turned their back on the technology.

India is also one of the few countries that have acquired a formidable research and industrial experience in breeder reactor technology, even though its economic case has never been persuasive, especially when identified global uranium resources appear adequate for fuelling projected demand through the end of this century.

The reluctance of the nuclear bureaucracy to admit this reality and its continuing obfuscation about the economic benefits of certain aspects of the indigenous programme has made it an easy target for criticism.

*The space research example*
Denial of NSG membership amidst fresh opportunities provided by the grand bargain of 2008 should encourage India’s nuclear mandarins to take a fresh look at their development priorities.

With focused and sustained efforts it is within the realm of possibility that the NSG will find a way to accommodate India in a matter of time, provided India plays its cards well. In this context, the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) would do well to look at the recent successes of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and its enhanced global stature.

India’s space programme was also subject to sanctions like the nuclear programme, but ISRO’s focused and modular development strategy seemed to have paid off well. ISRO recently launched 20 satellites in one go including two student satellites from Indian universities and 17 of four foreign countries, and has become a world leader in a niche market.

Although the DAE is a technically superior and resourceful organisation compared to ISRO it seems to have muddled in the process of juggling with several reactor development fronts.

Perhaps, what is needed in the wake of denial of NSG membership is a hardnosed realism regarding priorities for nuclear energy development and a strategy to navigate the tangled thicket of international nuclear trade and commerce through bilateral engagements.

_The writer is academic head at the National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bengaluru. The views are personal_

(This article was published on July 8, 2016

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/why-this-fuss-about-nsg-membership/article8824716.ece

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## dadeechi

*India’s Quest for NSG Membership*
Source: Getty
Mark Hibbs

Op-Ed
July 08, 2016
_Nuclear Intelligence Weekly_
*Summary: *For India, challenges remain six years after a road map for NSG membership initially emerged.


A road map for admitting India into the NSG began to emerge six years ago. The United States announced it wanted India in, and thereafter led the way in setting up an internal “structured dialogue” toward that end. Washington anticipated that within a few years the matter would be agreed to by consensus—as had been India’s “singular exception” to the NSG guidelines in 2008.





*Mark Hibbs*
Senior Associate
Nuclear Policy Program

_ More from this author... _
Vigorous Verification in Iran
The Nuclear Suppliers Group’s Critical India Decision
Admitting Non-NPT Members: Questions for the NSG
@MarkHibbsCEIP

The US, close allies, and India collaborated toward the goal of admitting India into several multilateral export control regimes, an important objective for India after years frozen out of international nuclear trade. The plan called for India first to join the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), then the NSG, and finally the control arrangements for conventional and chemical weapons. India and its advocates hoped that a positive NSG
decision would be made before the end of an annual group meeting held late last month in Seoul.
It didn’t work out as planned. After five years, the NSG “structured dialogue” hadn’t reached consensus conclusions because giving India full membership was trickier than carving out for India an exception to the NSG’s trade rules. Especially because the NSG right from its inception aimed to inhibit its members from assisting India in making nuclear weapons, the NSG’s members had to more deeply consider what Indian membership implied for the group’s rules and procedures, as well as for its identity. 

NSG participants’ decisions over four decades to expand participation from seven to 48 states reflected in all cases two important aspirations that followed from the group’s export control and nonproliferation missions. The first is the goal to get all supplier states to adhere to the guidelines. The second is to reinforce good nonproliferation behavior, including in new participants. These rationales are consistent with five “factors” for membership that are listed in INFCIRC/539, an NSG document that explains how the group works. They are also consistent with the statement in INFCIRC/539 that “the NSG remains open to admitting further supplier countries in order to strengthen international nonproliferation efforts.”

In the case of India, the first of the two above-mentioned rationales powerfully applies. India is a state with nuclear arms and an important, ambitious, and indigenous civilian nuclear energy program. India produces and processes nuclear materials, it makes virtually every listed item needed for equipping nuclear reactors, and it is beginning to enter the global market as a supplier of these goods. Nearly all NSG members clearly see the value of including India in the group in light of these facts.

The second rationale—encouraging and reinforcing good nonproliferation behavior—is more problematic. Participants have questioned whether India is “like-minded” concerning the NSG’s mission to apply nuclear export controls in the interest of non-proliferation. There has been no snap answer, in part because for decades India viewed multilateral nuclear export controls as a neo-colonialist stick to beat developing countries with.

Part of the problem is that unlike all current NSG members, India is not a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), and it has not subjected its nuclear activities to any multilateral restraints. One way out of this dilemma would be for India to meet specific criteria or approach certain benchmarks as a condition for membership. NPT membership is not a requirement for membership in the NSG, but “adherence” is a “factor” in INFCIRC/539, and many participants would favor India making binding legal commitments—including to NPT Articles I and VI and to the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty—that would bring India closer to
the global nonproliferation mainstream. 

The NSG also needs to consider what admitting India would mean for the NSG’s own guidelines and procedures. Working-level participants warn that so far questions related to India’s possession of nuclear arms have not been answered. These include whether India would continue to be barred from access to enrichment and reprocessing technology because it is not an NPT party.

Notwithstanding these issues, India this spring began pressing the NSG’s members to quickly decide in its favor, especially as time began running out on the Seoul meeting deadline. That approach may have been counterproductive for India. Officials from China, which had urged that a decision about India take the NPT into account, suggested that China’s position last month hardened, providing other NSG members more space to raise their working-level concerns.

After Seoul, Indian officials singled out Beijing for blocking India’s NSG membership, raising the prospect that geopolitics will for the first time significantly factor in an NSG membership decision. High politics are not mentioned in INFCIRC/539 and many participants believe they should be peripheral. Likewise, Indian claims that without NSG membership India faces supply-chain interruptions for nuclear projects, and cannot meet climate change commitments (irrespective of whether these claims are true) are extraneous to the NSG’s export control and nonproliferation missions.

How the NSG handles Indian membership now is up to South Korea, which has inherited the rotating chairmanship until mid-2017, and the NSG’s previous chairman, from Argentina. They will continue discussion, including over possible criteria for membership and NSG procedures. If enough progress is made, the chairman will call an extraordinary plenary meeting to again consider India’s application. Getting answers to the process questions is important because members need to know how the group will function with India sitting at the table.

Two weeks ago UK voters, after a lengthy debate over the risks and benefits, elected to leave the European Union. They were swayed by politicians who expressed strong opinions and who brushed off the challenges Britain would face to make Brexit happen. In the aftermath, the UK appears directionless and paralyzed about how to go forward. Reflecting on this, NSG participants should instead be well-prepared for what happens should India join their ranks.

This piece originally appeared in_ Nuclear Intelligence Weekly._
_http://carnegieendowment.org/2016/07/08/india-s-quest-for-nsg-membership-pub-64070

http://carnegieendowment.org/email/DC_Comms/media/hibbs.pdf

_


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## dadeechi

*Chinese Ambassador signals room for talks on India in NSG*
*Refusing to “heat up” the issue again, Liu Jinsong, Beijing’s envoy to New Delhi, said since India has not named China, why should it “rush to pick up the hat”.*
Written by Shubhajit Roy 
*New Delhi* Updated: Jul 15, 2016, 10:10

Written by Shubhajit Roy | New Delhi | Updated: July 15, 2016 10:10 am











On Masood Azhar, Liu says India must consult Pak.

For the first time after India pointed at China — without naming it — for blocking its entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), China indicated that there is room for negotiations and a solution can be found.

Refusing to “heat up” the issue again, Liu Jinsong, Beijing’s envoy to New Delhi, said since India has not named China, why should it “rush to pick up the hat”.

In an interview to The Indian Express at his residence on Thursday, Liu, who is the Acting Ambassador, also allayed concerns of impeding trade routes in the South China Sea and said China, like India, is a “peace-loving country” and Delhi has no reason to worry about its capacity-building in national defence.


Defending China’s infrastructure-building in islands of the South China Sea, he claimed they were for providing public services, like weather forecasting, rescue and medical assistance services, to the international community.

On the Chinese putting on technical hold the UN designation of Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Maulana Masood Azhar as a terrorist, Liu said it is “not a political hold” and is not being blocked. He also counselled India to indulge in “friendly consultations” with Pakistan – without naming it – and come to a mutually acceptable outcome. 

Responding to a question on China blocking India’s membership in NSG at Seoul last month, Liu said, “This topic has been very hot last month, now it has cooled down a little bit. I don’t want to talk too much about it and heat it up again. I want to leave time and room for the diplomats to work out a solution.”

“The Indian statement”, he said, does not name China. “How do you decide that this country is China?”

Told that it had been widely reported, he said, “When India has not specifically mentioned China, why should China rush to pick up the hat?”

He said the Chinese approach on the NSG question is three-fold: “Abiding by the rules, leaving the room and space (for negotiations) and finding the route (solution).”

Asked if that can happen later this year, he said that he would not spell out a timetable. On the question of a possible quid pro quo between Chinese membership of the MTCR (Missile Technology Control Regime) and India’s entry into NSG, he said that there is “no linkage” between the two. On India’s entry into MTCR, he said, “It is good that India is now a member of MTCR.”

On the question of Chinese assertiveness in the South China Sea leading to a possible blockade of trade routes, he said, “India has expressed this concern (on Tuesday). China shares the concern. China is committed to safeguarding freedom of navigation in South China Sea… and actually, the purpose of building some facilities in some islands in SCS is to provide public good for the international community, like lighthouses, weather stations and other kinds of civilian facilities.”

“China, like India is also a peace-loving country which sticks to international law and order and good neighbourliness,” he said, and “India has no reason to worry about its capacity-building in its national defence.”

On the holding of Malabar exercises, he said it is part of India’s military cooperation with others. “If it is not targeted at China, we won’t have any problems with that. However, if any party or parties participating in the exercise want to deliberately bring the exercise to the disputed waters of South China Sea, then we will be concerned. (But) Indian side has been very cautious and has been sticking to principles, and has decided to not participate in joint patrols in the South China Sea.”

On Masood Azhar’s designation as a terrorist being blocked at the UN, the Chinese envoy said, “China, India, Pakistan are all victims of terrorist activities… there is no such thing as China blocking. (In this case) third party needs to be consulted. It is not a political hold, but a technical hold. Only a hold, not blocking.”

“I don’t know much about this person Masood… but as per rules of 1267 committee, another country, the country of origin of Masood, needs to be consulted. If you and that country can have friendly consultations and reach a mutually acceptable result, then China will be glad to go along with results.”

Diplomacy, he said, is all about “negotiating and making compromises”. “No country can have it all. You have to compromise somewhere… you need patience and need to abide by the rules,” he said

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...sood-azhar-terrorism-south-china-sea-2914833/


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## dadeechi

*India's NSG bid: China says 'no country can put itself opposite NPT'*
Amid India's assertion that it will not sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) to gain entry into NSG, an adamant China on Thursday said "no country should or can put itself opposite the NPT".
PTI | Jul 21, 2016, 11.17 PM IST

*Highlights*

No country should or can put itself opposite the NPT, China said
It clarified that China does not make the rules for how to become new members of the group
The response comes after Sushma Swaraj on Wednesday said India will never sign NPT





Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang. (AFP photo)
BEIJING: Amid India's assertion that it will not sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) to gain entry into NSG, an adamant China on Thursday said "no country should or can put itself opposite the NPT".

"We have repeatedly stated our position on the accession of non-NPT countries into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG)," Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang said here, reacting to External Affairs Minister
BACKGROUND
*India’s NSG bid: Engagement with China continues, Sushma Swaraj tells Parliament*




*Highlights*

India will not sign NPT for NSG membership, Sushma Swaraj said.
She rejected the charge that the government created a 'hype' over India's NSG bid.
India will continue to engage China for its NSG membership.
NEW DELHI: India will never sign the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj declared in the Lok Sabha on Wednesday. She also said India continues to engage with
China
over its opposition to India's entry to the elite Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).

"If someone does not agree to something once, it doesn't mean that they will never agree to it. We are continuing our efforts in engaging with China on this issue," said Swaraj on India's bid to
gain entry to the NSG
, the global civil nuclear trading group.

Swaraj's statements on the NSG issue came in response to queries from Opposition members on the status of India's bid for entry into the elite nuclear trading group.

Swaraj likened her government's continuing efforts in this regard to its efforts to get the
GST Bill
passed in Parliament, saying it has endeavoured for consensus on the key tax reform.

She also reiterated India's aversion to signing the NPT, which New Delhi has continued to oppose on the grounds of being inherently unfair in excluding a vast majority of nations from an elite nuclear club.

Swaraj rejected suggestions that India had created a lot of "hype" ahead of the NSG meet in Seoul. "We have been taught to make serious efforts to achieve things...no hype was created when we submitted our application for the membership of NSG on May 12. We did it with low fanfare," she said.

*Beijing had raised the fact that India is not a signatory to the NPT as central to its opposition to granting New Delhi a membership to the NSG. It had argued against any concessions to India on this front, even as it acknowledged India's impeccable non-proliferation record.*

China had bunched India with Pakistan, an acknowledged proliferator of nuclear technology, saying allowing the entry of one non-NPT nation into the NSG would raise questions over legitimate nuclear powers.

Sushma Swaraj's statement in the Lok Sabha+ on Wednesday that India will not sign the NPT.

*"It is worth mentioning that China does not make the rules for how to become new members of the group. The international community has forged a consensus long ago that the NPT is the cornerstone of the international non-proliferation regime. No country should or can put itself opposite to the NPT," Lu said.*

Swaraj had said India is engaging with China to iron out differences after Beijing created "procedural hurdles" for its entry into the 48-member NSG but made it clear that government will never ink NPT, which only recognises five countries — the US, Russia, the UK, France and China — as nuclear weapon states.

Swaraj said
BACKGROUND
*China created hurdles for NSG entry: Sushma Swaraj*



Foreign minister Sushma Swaraj.
New Delhi: The government on Wednesday again blamed China for creating what it described as a procedural hurdle in India's NSG membership bid, even as it said it continued to engage Beijing on the issue.

*Speaking in Lok Sabha, foreign minister Sushma Swaraj also declared that India was not going to sign the non-proliferation treaty (NPT) to attain membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).*

Swaraj said China had raised questions over how a non-NPT signatory could become a member of the NSG. The minister also asserted that membership of NSG, which has already allowed India to participate in nuclear commerce, was significant for India as it did not want to remain on the "verandah" but in the room where decisions were being made.

"We are still engaging with China. We have not stopped efforts. If someone says no once, it doesn't mean he will say no forever," Swaraj said during the question hour.

She went on to draw a parallel with Congress's resistance to the GST bill. "Congress friends are not allowing the GST bill to be passed. Four sessions have passed, all parties have agreed to it, it is being held up due to them (Congress). That does not mean it will never agree (to the GST bill). It is possible that the bill will be passed in this session," she said.

*Swaraj said India had a "clear-cut" policy on NPT and while it would continue to abide by the commitments it made in 2008 when it acquired a waiver from NSG to carry out nuclear commerce, it was not going to sign the NPT.*

Swaraj also brushed aside suggestions that India had created unnecessary hype ahead of the NSG plenary in Seoul and that the failure to become a member was a diplomatic snub as it came just after PM Modi's visit to Mexico and Switzerland.

"But we are engaging with it. We have not stopped efforts. If someone says 'no' for once, it does not mean he won't agree at all," she said.


Lu's comments on Wednesday stated that there is no change in China's stand on the NPT and that the new members wanting to join the NSG should sign it.


Beijing in the past has insisted on consensus over the entry of new members into grouping after majority of the nuclear trading club backed India's case.

In a setback to India's efforts to join the grouping, the NSG plenary held in South Korea last month decided against accepting the country's membership application after China and some other nations opposed entry of a non-NPT signatory.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-itself-opposite-NPT/articleshow/53326798.cms

*For India's Bid For Nuclear Group NSG, Germany Had Suggested a Plan B*

All India | Written by Maya Mirchandani (with inputs from Reuters) | Updated: July 22, 2016 17:54 IST
 







Germany, which supported India nuke club NSG bid, suggested an alternative route into the bloc

*New Delhi: *
*Highlights*

India refused entry to nuclear trading group NSG last month
India must sign NPT (non proliferation treaty) first, said China
Not ok, says India. Germany suggested another non-proliferation pact

When India was snubbed by the Nuclear Suppliers Group or NSG, which refused in entry last month, Germany, which supported the application, tried to give India an alternative route into the 48-country bloc that controls sensitive nuclear technology.

China used what India has described as a "procedural hurdle" to keep India out, stating that the NSG cannot admit a country that has not signed the main global arms control pact or the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).


That was in Seoul. Just days before that, as the NSG held a key session in Vienna, Germany wrote to Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj, suggesting that if India prefers, it could instead sign the CTBT -the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty which commits nations against nuclear testing. More than 160 countries have ratified the 1996 Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty (CTBT). But since 1996, India is among the countries that have conducted nuclear tests. Eight countries including the US and India have blocked the pact from taking effect.

* The letter to Ms Swaraj from German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier commends India's voluntary moratorium on nuclear weapons testing and says India's entry into the CTBT would be a "significant step towards the danger emanating from nuclear weapons".*

Senior government sources told NDTV that Ms Swaraj responded to the letter nearly three weeks later, after India was turned away from the NSG, which, however, has suggested the application may be reviewed again later this year.

In her reply, Ms Swaraj reiterated that India continues remains committed to a "global, verifiable and non-discriminatory nuclear disarmament".

China was the ringleader of a group of countries that included Switzerland who fought the push by the United States to bring India into the NSG. The United States, which has a nuclear cooperation deal with Delhi, says India must be recognised as a nuclear power that plays by the rules and is not a proliferator.

India already enjoys most of the benefits of membership under a 2008 exemption to NSG rules granted to support its nuclear cooperation deal with Washington.

Germany has not opposed India's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers group, and in fact is believed to have lobbied with Switzerland to drop its opposition.

Sources say Ms Swaraj also received a note from the Netherlands which repeated Germany's suggestion. 

Ms Swaraj told parliament this week India continue to "engage with China" with the aim of winning Beijing's support and that India remains firm on not signing the NPT. The letters from Germany and the Netherlands indicate, however, that India will be pressured to enter other non-proliferation regimes if it wants to collect support for its application to the elite NSG.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/for-...up-nsg-germany-had-suggested-a-plan-b-1434817


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## A_Poster

The biggest benefit that India would get out of NSG membership is that it would sanction proof Indian civil nuclear program.

See, If India tests a nuclear bomb ,or for that any futuristic WMD (who said nukes are apex of WMD? There is clean-Fusion bomb tech that US is working on and in future, even antimatter bombs are possible), NSG could and would impose sanctions on Indian civil nuclear program ,thus voiding billion of dollars of investment that we had done in Civil nuclear reactors.

If India is inside NSG, such a sanction is not possible as India would veto it, and individual sanctions would not work even if a single supplier country oppose them.


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## bhaktupdate

Pakistan reaction on india Join MTCR .. Pakistani in pain


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## dadeechi

*Turkey backs India's bid to join NSG*
New Delhi, Aug 20, 2016, DHNS:




*Turkey on Friday confirmed its support for India’s membership to the Nuclear Suppliers Group. It also prodded New Delhi to act against some institutions run by the followers of controversial US-based cleric Fethullah Gülen.*

External Minister Sushma Swaraj was briefed by visiting Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu on the role of Gulen and a network of his followers in the recent attempt to stage a coup in Turkey.

Cavusoglu pointed out that some of the followers of Gulen were running schools, colleges and other institutions in Mumbai, Hyderabad and other cities across India. He requested Swaraj to act against the institutions run by the network, sources said.

The Embassy of Turkey here had earlier conveyed to the Ministry of Home Affairs in New Delhi Ankara’s concerns over Gulen network’s footprints in India.

Sushma told Cavusoglu that the government would take necessary action after verifying the allegations against the institutions run by the followers of Gulen.

Gülen, a cleric, lives in Pennsylvania in the US. He runs the Gülen Movement, which, according to his website, is a “worldwide civic initiative rooted in the spiritual and humanistic tradition of Islam”.

The Turkish government led by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Prime Minister Binali Yildirim accused Fethullah Gülen of orchestrating the failed coup in Turkey last month.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/565754/turkey-backs-indias-bid-join.html

*As India renews NSG bid, Pak throws in a no n-testing pact spanner *

* Jayanth Jacob, Hindustan Times, New Delhi*
| 
Updated: Aug 17, 2016 15:15 IST





File photo of Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif and Indian Prime minister Narendra Modi prior to a meeting at Hydrabad House in New Delhi. (Ajay Aggarwal / HT Photo )


Pakistani Prime Minister’s adviser on foreign affairs, Sartaj Aziz, initially announced the offer on August 12.

There was no formal reaction from external affairs ministry on this. But sources dismissed Pakistan efforts, saying “a country with known proliferation track record should not advise India on the issue.”

“In the larger interest of peace and stability in the region, as also in the global context, Pakistan has indicated the possibility that the two countries may consider a bilateral arrangement, which is reflective of its policy of promoting restraint and responsibility in South Asia and its consistent support for the objectives of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT),” Pakistan foreign office spokesperson said on Tuesday.

“The bilateral non-testing arrangement, if mutually agreed, could become binding immediately without waiting for the entry into force of the CTBT at the international level,” the spokesperson added.

Pakistan argues that while the unilateral moratoriums declared by the two countries were “voluntary” and “legally non-binding and could be withdrawn unilaterally, a bilateral arrangement will be mutually binding and difficult to withdraw from unilaterally”.

After the 1998 nuclear test, Pakistan proposed India that the two countries should adhere to CTBT simultaneously.

India did not support the CTBT - an arms control treaty - when it came to being in 1996 and still it doesn’t. The CTBT has 183 signatories and 163 ratifications.

Though India is not a signatory, it says a voluntary moratorium on testing nuclear weapons adheres to the basic principle of no testing of nuclear weapons.

Membership of the NSG would increase India’s international clout and provide a vested interest in curbing the world’s most dangerous regional arms race as well as expand its civilian nuclear programme to address its energy requirements.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...act-spanner/story-15ifbfF5NUvIal0DlgRbcK.html

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## Hellfire

@dadeechi so much for brotherhood ... interesting developments. But unsurprising.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## dadeechi

*Commentary: India should join China in rising above differences, forging closer partnership*
Source: Xinhua 2016-08-12 16:50:29 






by Xinhua Writer Liu Chang

BEIJING, Aug. 12 (Xinhua) -- Conventional wisdom tells us that no two countries can agree on everything, and it would be smart for India to join China in rising above their differences.

Starting from Friday, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi begins a three-day visit to India, the first for him in two years.

Many believe the trip aims to help rasp off the rough edges of the relationship between the world' s two leading developing countries, and build up consensus ahead of two important summits, the Group of 20 meeting in China and the BRICS gathering in India, to be held in the coming months.

As Beijing and New Delhi head into a season of intensive top-level diplomatic encounters that could well define the future of their partnership, the two need to work together to keep their disagreements in check.

What should be noted above all else is that India has wrongly blamed China for blocking its entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).

So far, there is no precedent for a non-Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) signatory to become a NSG member. Many inside the body that monitors the global flow of nuclear materials insist prudence in handing a membership card to any non-treaty party.

However, New Delhi should not be downhearted as the door to the NSG is not tightly closed. But any future discussions need to be based on safeguarding an international nuclear non-proliferation mechanism, in which India itself has a huge stake.

In a join communique issued by the foreign ministers of China, India and Russia after they met in Moscow earlier this year, India agreed that the South China Sea issue should be addressed through talks between the parties concerned.

Given that the South China Sea correlates with China' s vital national interests, it is hoped that India would fully comprehend Beijing' s concerns, and continue to play a constructive role in maintaining peace and stability in the Asia-Pacific.

At the same time, the world' s two fastest-growing economies should maintain their positive momentum on bilateral ties that has been maintained in recent years, further deepen cooperation, especially in trade and commerce, and foster an even closer partnership.

In a time of lackluster global economic recovery, the two countries should team up to fend off trade protectionism, and make substantial efforts to bring the world' s economic house in order at the two key summits and beyond.

As key emerging markets, the two nations, by standing together hand in hand, can be a strong voice for the developing world, and render the global economic governance system fairer and more justice.

When it comes to addressing some of the world's most pressing challenges such as climate change, the fight against terrorism and food security, the two most populous BRICS members share great potential to do even more.

China and India are partners, not rivals, and as long as they can properly handle their differences with sincerity and political dexterity, bilateral ties will grow stronger while the two become a force for good around the world.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-08/12/c_135590785.htm

*Xinhua commentary hints at NSG-SCS quid pro quo*

Atul Aneja






PTI
Chinese Foreign Affairs Minister Wang Yi meeting Goa Governor Mridula Sinha at Raj Bhavan in Donapaula, Goa on Friday. A Xinhua write-up that appeared on Friday underscored that India should not consider that its entry into the NSG is “tightly closed,” indicating a softening of Beijing's stand on the entry of India into the elite club..

As Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi began his three-day visit India visit from Goa, a commentary in the state-run Xinhua news agency that appeared on Friday was not far from linking New Delhi’s entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) with the South China Sea (SCS) issue.

The juxtaposition of the two themes, which have recently become a cause for friction between the two countries, appeared under the title, “India should join China in rising above differences, forging closer partnership.”

*Slight softening of NSG stand*

The write-up underscored that India should not consider that its entry into the NSG is “tightly closed”. It pointed out that “so far, there is no precedent for a non-Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) signatory to become a NSG member”. But it added: “However, New Delhi should not be downhearted as the door to the NSG is not tightly closed. But any future discussions need to be based on safeguarding an international nuclear non-proliferation mechanism, in which India itself has a huge stake.”

*Quid pro quo hinted at*

Without stating that a quid pro quo could be in the offing, the article, nevertheless followed its observations on India’s stalled bid for the NSG with an elaboration of the SCS issue — especially, highlighting New Delhi’s support for a dialogue “between the parties concerned” during the Foreign Ministerial meeting of the Russia-India-China (RIC) trilateral earlier this year.

“In a joint communiqué issued by the Foreign Ministers of China, India and Russia after they met in Moscow earlier this year, India agreed that the SCS issue should be addressed through talks between the parties concerned,” the commentary observed.

*After U.S., Japan stepped into SCS issue*

China’s insistence on a direct dialogue among the disputants follows its angst against the involvement of outside powers, especially the United States and Japan, in the SCS arena. China’s sensitivities have been further heightened after an international tribunal at The Hague, in its ruling rejected Beijing’s claims in the SCS.

“Given that the SCS correlates with China' s vital national interests, it is hoped that India would fully comprehend Beijing' s concerns, and continue to play a constructive role in maintaining peace and stability in the Asia-Pacific,” said the commentary.

India has faulted China for blocking its entry in the 48-nation NSG, which controls the global flow of nuclear material and technology. The Xinhua write-up, however, stressed that “India has wrongly blamed China for blocking its entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).”

*‘Emerging countries will feel cheated’*

Earlier in an interview with _The Hindu_, Han Hua, director for Arms Control and Disarmament at Peking University, had observed that making an exception for India to join the NSG as a nuclear weapon State was also likely to trigger resistance from some emerging countries such as Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, as well as Kazakhstan. These nations, which had given up nuclear weapons capability or atomic weapons at one stage, were bound to “feel cheated” if India was “rewarded” because, unlike them, it persisted in pursuing atomic weapons.

The article noted that the two countries need to work together to keep their disagreements in check, as they entered “a season of intensive top-level diplomatic encounters that could well define the future of their partnership”


http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...nts-at-nsgscs-quid-pro-quo/article8984358.ece



hellfire said:


> @dadeechi so much for brotherhood ... interesting developments. But unsurprising.



The shocker would be when China comes onboard.

China is already negotiating a *NSG-SCS quid pro quo*

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## Hellfire

Imran Khan said:


> i can apply ? i am very good in bla bla as you all know



You have my vote ... For whatever you stand for


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## dadeechi

*Negotiations with China on NSG soon*
Monday, 22 August 2016 | Vineeta Pandey | New Delhi


As the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) discusses how to deal with the cases of non-NPT (Non Proliferation Treaty) signatory States in the context of India's application, New Delhi is preparing to engage with China to remove the stumbling blocks.

China tried to block discussions on India's application for NSG membership this June on the technical grounds that New Delhi is not a signatory to the NPT. Later China claimed that it was not opposed to India's membership but during the NSG plenary session in Seoul signing NPT was an issue for some members too. It is learnt that countries like Brazil and Turkey called for a criteria-based process to be put in place first to avoid any confusion in future.

Indian Government is hoping the Chinese position may evolve with engagement as India prepares to discuss technicalities of its application for the NSG. Top Government sources said talks with Chinese lead negotiator and Director-General of the Arms Control division Wang Qun with his Indian counterpart Amandeep Singh Gill may open scope for agreement on stumbling points like the clause of signing NPT where China has an issue.

There are broadly five factors taken into account for considering NSG membership application and adherence to NPT is only one among them. The other points include adherence to an equivalent international nuclear non-proliferation agreement and full compliance with the obligations of such agreement, enforcement of a legally based domestic export control system and, support of international efforts towards non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and of their delivery vehicles.

India with a 2008 waiver, and a strong supporter of international efforts in checking non-proliferation of nuclear weapons feels it has a strong case. It has asked member countries to judge its application on the basis of credentials, track record and that the question of procedures and criterion was already addressed when India was granted waiver in 2008.

"Three countries became NSG members before signing NPT. The NSG membership rules itself say signing of NPT or equivalent agreement as a point. If NPT was the only clause then the option of other agreements and efforts would not have been mentioned," said the source.

Indian hopes also arise from the indication by the Chinese side that there is scope for dialogue on this. The Chinese indicated they are ready for negotiations and finding a solution. Besides, India today is also better positioned with Missile Technology Control Regime membership in hand. 

The NSG during its last plenary session in Seoul this June had discussions on the issue of "Technical, Legal and Political Aspects of the Participation of non-NPT States in the NSG" and decided to continue its discussion. "Shared information on all aspects of the 2008 Statement on Civil Nuclear Cooperation with India and discussed the NSG relationship with India."

India plans to build 38 new nuclear reactors and has issued 150 licenses for procuring nuclear material in its effort to meet COP 21 targets for promoting clean energy to reduce carbon footprints.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/nation/negotiations-with-china-on-nsg-soon.html

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## Dean Winchester

No objection to India’s NSG membership: Turkish official Published April 27, 2017 IANS 

Ahead of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s visit to India this month-end, a senior Turkish official has said that his country does not have any objection to India becoming a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). “I don’t think Turkey has any objection to India joining the group,” Ilnur Cevik, Senior Advisor to President Erdogan, said in response to a question by IANS at a meeting on “India and Turkey’s Place in the Rising World” organised by Turkish daily Sabah here on Wednesday evening. Setting aside all speculation about Turkey’s support for India’s NSG membership bid, Cevuk said: “We feel that we also are interested in nuclear cooperation with India and all other peaceful countries that seek peaceful use of nuclear technology. *So, I don’t think Turkey at all has any objection to India’s membership.” *
Turkey had earlier conveyed its position that it would favour a consensus on the issue. During his visit to India in November last year, Turkish Minister for Development Lutfi Elvan said that India needed to work on its NSG membership bid “to convince the other countries”. “We are ready to join the consensus if it is reached,” Elvan was quoted as saying. China had blocked India’s membership bid at the NSG plenary in Seoul in June last year on the ground that for a country to become a member of the 48-nation bloc, it should be signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). Turkey had earlier supported India’s membership in the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). At Wednesday’s meeting, Cevik said that Turkey would seek to build its relationship with India during Erdogan’s visit that starts on April 30. “We are prepared to help you in building up your economy,” he said. He said that Turkey was hosting the bulk of refugees fleeing from Syria while other European nations were not taking in these refugees. Stating that the world was opposing Erdogan because he supported the oppressed, he said: “This is where we need India’s help. Our new presidential system will speed up the process of democracy.” Erdogan earlier this month won a referendum that gave him more executive powers as President. Speaking on the occasion, Kerem Alkin, Professor at Istanbul Medipol University’s Faculty of business and Managerial Sciences, said that Turkey wanted India to share its experience in power generation. “There may be negotiations on energy supply during President Erdogan’s visit,” Alkin said. “We can work together on global energy demand, especially renewable energy.” He also said that Turkey and India could work together on education and food programmes in West Asia and Africa. Transportation, communication, logistics, tourism, retail and financial services are other areas flagged by Alkin where opportunities for cooperation between the two countries lay.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...hip-turkish-official/articleshow/58397807.cms


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## Chinese-Dragon

China also "technically" has no objection to India getting an NSG seat. What does that tell you?

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## Dean Winchester

Chinese-Dragon said:


> China also "technically" has no objection to India getting an NSG seat. What does that tell you?


Well China says it wants both India & Pakistan to join NSG.
Turkey did not say that.


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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

Chinese-Dragon said:


> China also "technically" has no objection to India getting an NSG seat. What does that tell you?


we love china for not objecting at india's nsg membership.

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## Sully3

China has all the power to keep blocking india. all these other states can or can't support indias stance what matters is what China is saying. you either let them in with pakistan or you dont let in both. 

each time indians get a slap on their face when they try for NSG and each time they come back only to get the same answer.

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

Dean Winchester said:


> Well China says it wants both India & Pakistan to join NSG.
> Turkey did not say that.


do you really think turkey will ever ever vote against Pakistan. Plz wake up.

mexico and many other countries supported india nsg membership too but . . .

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## Hindustani78

http://zeenews.india.com/india/no-objection-to-indias-nsg-membership-turkish-official-1999978.html

New Delhi: Ahead of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan`s visit to India this month-end, a senior Turkish official has said that his country does not have any objection to India becoming a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).

"I don`t think Turkey has any objection to India joining the group," Ilnur Cevik, Senior Advisor to President Erdogan, said in response to a question by IANS at a meeting on "India and Turkey`s Place in the Rising World" organised by Turkish daily Sabah here on Wednesday evening.

Setting aside all speculation about Turkey`s support for India`s NSG membership bid, Cevuk said: "We feel that we also are interested in nuclear cooperation with India and all other peaceful countries that seek peaceful use of nuclear technology. So, I don`t think Turkey at all has any objection to India`s membership."

Turkey had earlier conveyed its position that it would favour a consensus on the issue.

During his visit to India in November last year, Turkish Minister for Development Lutfi Elvan said that India needed to work on its NSG membership bid "to convince the other countries".

"We are ready to join the consensus if it is reached," Elvan was quoted as saying.

China had blocked India`s membership bid at the NSG plenary in Seoul in June last year on the ground that for a country to become a member of the 48-nation bloc, it should be signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Turkey had earlier supported India`s membership in the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).

At Wednesday`s meeting, Cevik said that Turkey would seek to build its relationship with India during Erdogan`s visit that starts on April 30.

"We are prepared to help you in building up your economy," he said.

He said that Turkey was hosting the bulk of refugees fleeing from Syria while other European nations were not taking in these refugees.

Stating that the world was opposing Erdogan because he supported the oppressed, he said: "This is where we need India`s help. Our new presidential system will speed up the process of democracy."

Erdogan earlier this month won a referendum that gave him more executive powers as President.

Speaking on the occasion, Kerem Alkin, Professor at Istanbul Medipol University`s Faculty of business and Managerial Sciences, said that Turkey wanted India to share its experience in power generation.

"There may be negotiations on energy supply during President Erdogan`s visit," Alkin said. "We can work together on global energy demand, especially renewable energy."

He also said that Turkey and India could work together on education and food programmes in West Asia and Africa.

Transportation, communication, logistics, tourism, retail and financial services are other areas flagged by Alkin where opportunities for cooperation between the two countries lay.


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## neem456

So eventually it looks like they got something in return.
So there was a price tag and they sold themselves.

Chinese also have some price tag, and eventually they will also sell themselves.
Its only the matter of time, till then india can continue to reap the benefits of NSG waiver.

While day dreamers keep waiting forever and cheerleading for china.


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## Dean Winchester

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> do you really think turkey will ever ever vote against Pakistan. Plz wake up.
> 
> mexico and many other countries supported india nsg membership too but . . .


Yes they will.

Mexico and other nations except China did not oppose India.


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## Mamluk

He's just being diplomatic.

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## Dean Winchester

[USER=25628]@xxx[/USER][{::::::::::::::::::> said:


> He's just being diplomatic.


Burnol moment for you.


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## hussain0216

[USER=25628]@xxx[/USER][{::::::::::::::::::> said:


> He's just being diplomatic.



Obviously so


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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

Dean Winchester said:


> Yes they will.
> 
> Mexico and other nations except China did not oppose India.


Mexico was termed traitor by Indians I guess.


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## Hindustani78

neem456 said:


> So eventually it looks like they got something in return.
> So there was a price tag and they sold themselves.
> 
> Chinese also have some price tag, and eventually they will also sell themselves.
> Its only the matter of time, till then india can continue to reap the benefits of NSG waiver.
> 
> While day dreamers keep waiting forever and cheerleading for china.



Republic of Turkey is constructing Nuclear reactors and they are securing enriched Uranium and the agreements with Republic of India will be signed .


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## Thorough Pro

No objection does not equal getting a favourable vote


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## india2050

Jeez ..we have a waiver ...we're almost the special child of the nuclear cabal ...so I do t think the nsg is a big deal anymore ....

The goal is more peaceful use of nuclear technology , and by god India will achieve it , one way or another ..!!


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## Shajida Khan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> China also "technically" has no objection to India getting an NSG seat. What does that tell you?


Just like India also "technically" has no objection to OROB, right?

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## tw00tw00

First the H1B visa restrictions, and now this? 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s-nsg-bid-with-china/articleshow/58597078.cms

*Trump administration silent on whether it raised India's NSG bid with China*

WASHINGTON: The Trump administration on Tuesday kept mum on whether it raised the issue of India's NSG bid with the top Chinese leadership, but said it supports India's "full membership" to the four multilateral export control regimes. 

China is the only major country which has been blocking India's entry into the 48-member Nuclear Suppliers Group. 

The previous US administrations - that of the presidents George W Bush and Barack Obama - had put India's NSG membership on top of their top priorities. 

"Since 2010, the US has made clear our support for India's full membership in the four multilateral export control regimes," a State Department spokesperson told PTI. 

The spokesperson was asked about the efforts being done by the US for India becoming a member of the NSG. 

The White House did not respond to a question whether India's bid for NSG membership was raised by the Trump administration with the Chinese leadership. 

Trump, last month, had a successful Summit with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping in Florida and had several phone calls with him. 

Trump has said several times in the public domain that he enjoys a very good relationship with Xi. 

However, issues like India's membership to NSG is yet to figure in the talking points between the top officials of the Trump administration and those from the Chinese leadership. 

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson also visited China and has had several rounds of talks with his Chinese counterparts. 

Publicly, both Trump and Tillerson have said North Korea and trade issues have been dominating their talks with China. 

China is advocating a two-step "non-discriminatory" approach for admission of countries who have not signed nuclear-Non Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in the NSG. 

As per the new stand announced by Beijing in November, it first wants to find a solution that is applicable to the admission of all non-NPT members followed by discussions to admit specific non-NPT member. 

China's stand for a non-discriminatory criteria is regarded significant as Pakistan, a close ally of Beijing, too has applied for the NSG membership along with India.

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## Into the Fire

Good.
Trump is not like Obummer who only talked but did nothing, Trump is all action so instead of yapping about it in public his admin will do the job behind scenes which what is needed.


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## grey boy 2

Into the Fire said:


> Good.
> Trump is not like Obummer who only talked but did nothing, Trump is all action so instead of yapping about it in public his admin will do the job behind scenes which what is needed.


Very good analogy bro since we're in a "Stealth Era" 
Everything will go "Stealthy" should be the new "Norm" going forward

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## beijingwalker

*China signals no change in stand on India's entry to NSG*
New Delhi, DH News Service, May 9 2017, 2:21 IST
Ahead of the Nuclear Suppliers Group’s annual plenary in Switzerland next month, China made it clear that it remained opposed to India’s proposed entry into the 48-nation cartel.

Notwithstanding negotiations between the two neighbours over the past several months, China’s envoy to India, Lou Zhouhui, reiterated what the Communist country had been saying ever since it blocked New Delhi’s bid to get a seat in the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) at its last plenary in Seoul in June 2016.

“On Nuclear Suppliers Group issue, we do not oppose any country’s membership, believing that a standard for admission should be agreed upon first,” Lou said while delivering a lecture at the United Service Institution of India in New Delhi recently.

The Embassy of China in New Delhi made the text of his speech public on Monday. His comment has come just a month before the NSG is set to hold its 27th plenary in Switzerland.

Lou’s comment clearly indicated that China had not yet budged from its stand that the NSG should adopt a “two-step approach” to address the issue of admitting new members.

Beijing has been maintaining that the NSG should first “explore” through “an open and transparent” process and reach agreement on a non-discriminatory formula” to deal with the issue of granting membership to the countries, which had not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). Once the non-discriminatory formula would be adopted by the NSG, the cartel should move to the second stage to take up the “country-specific membership issues”. Neither India nor Pakistan has signed the NPT.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/610594/china-signals-no-change-stand.html


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## Sully3

As expected. well done China

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## beijingwalker

*Trump administration silent on whether it raised India's NSG bid with China*
PTI | May 9, 2017, 07.55 PM IST
WASHINGTON: The Trumpadministration on Tuesday kept mum on whether it raised the issue of India's NSG bid with the top Chinese leadership, but said it supports India's "full membership" to the four multilateral export control regimes.

China is the only major country which has been blocking India's entry into the 48-member Nuclear Suppliers Group.

The previous US administrations - that of the presidents George W Bush and Barack Obama - had put India's NSG membership on top of their top priorities.

"Since 2010, the US has made clear our support for India's full membership in the four multilateral export control regimes," a State Department spokesperson told PTI.

The spokesperson was asked about the efforts being done by the US for India becoming a member of the NSG.

The White House did not respond to a question whether India's bid for NSG membership was raised by the Trump administration with the Chinese leadership.

Trump, last month, had a successful Summit with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping in Florida and had several phone calls with him.

Trump has said several times in the public domain that he enjoys a very good relationship with Xi.

However, issues like India's membership to NSG is yet to figure in the talking points between the top officials of the Trump administration and those from the Chinese leadership.

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson also visited China and has had several rounds of talks with his Chinese counterparts.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s-nsg-bid-with-china/articleshow/58597078.cms


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## Fledgingwings

It was expected.No NSG entry for india for now.


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## wiseone2

Shajida Khan said:


> Just like India also "technically" has no objection to OROB, right?



What is the point of OROB ??
It is complete smoke and mirrors to finance a bunch of projects to keep chinese workers busy


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