# Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA



## fatman17

the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.

what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?

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## Rocky25

fatman17 said:


> the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.
> 
> what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?



JF 17 and Chinese 5th Gen aircrafts!


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## prabhakar

fatman17 said:


> the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.
> 
> what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?



the news is not out of the blue... J10 B and jf-17 blcok 2 and 3 are the best options... because they are sanctioned proof, efficient and cheap.

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## anathema

Its official - Livefist has reported it..MoD has issued letter of intent to Dassault. So i guess its no longer rumours !

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## jackyy

PAF cant deal with numbers but now when advance tech is involved then every option is less compatible.


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## SQ8

Without money.. the current force plan of 150 JF's and 100 F-16's will have to suffice..with 50-60 FC-20's when funds become available later...By the time most of the JF-17's will have been inducted.. the first Rafale squadrons will have stood up with the IAF.

Money is what matters.. and the PAF has none to spare.

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## Mujraparty

any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?


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## Jade

Yes, it would be very hard for Pakistan to match this. Moreover, Pakistan is cash strapped. It will be interesting to see what Pakistan is going to do to counter this.

---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------




eowyn said:


> any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?



Pak budget may not allow for EF.

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## Windjammer

I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.

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## prabhakar

Windjammer said:


> I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
> Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
> Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.



so you are going to spend 10 bn usd ++ in the next 5-7 years ?


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## rockstarIN

Windjammer said:


> I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
> Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
> Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.



IMO, Rafales will be first deployed in North east sector.


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## Windjammer

eowyn said:


> any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?



PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.

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## fatman17

eowyn said:


> any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?



at ~US$100m / EFT with infrastructure it looks prohibitive at best.


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## prabhakar

Windjammer said:


> PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.



aarey pagale...ab rulayega kya ... 

Anyways.. french also reporting the same

Dassault va vendre 126 rafales à l&#39;Inde - Libération

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## DANGER-ZONE

Even i say, in current economic situation we cant even buy FC-20. 
i am watching PAF will end up every thing with JF-17 and F-16 .  
Congrats to Indians because your MMRCA Sas-bahoo long lasting delayed episode ended, finally

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## rockstarIN

Windjammer said:


> PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.



The reason behind actually for the rejection is

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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Windjammer said:


> I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
> Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
> Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.



Tell that to a platoon of rifle wielding soldiers going up against 2 soldiers with M 16s 

A couple of other points..

1. The flyaway cost difference between a JF 17 and Rafale is probably closer to 3x or so. 
2. You are forgetting the pilot cost component. FOr 3 JF 17s you would want to field against 1 rafale, you would need to ready and maintain 3x no. of pilots and 3x amount of local infrastructure.. Once you factor that in, the cost advantage over the life cycle doesnt remain that favorable. That is mainly the reason why countries are moving towards smaller forces of highly competent planes vs larger number of low end ones.

On a lighter note, if you want to take your girlfriend to a party, what would you prefer.. 1 Mercedes slk or 10 Suzuki Mehrans

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.



WJ i remember the former ACM stating that the Gripen was an advanced platform and the PAF was not ready for it. as far as EFT / Rafale go, i cant remember the PAF rejecting them! - what were the grounds for rejection? - cost probably as in the 90's with the Mirage 2000's which were offered at US$60m / aircraft.

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## saiyan0321

congrats to india what we can do is first re make the entire fleet then think on it like everyone said pakistan has to be in budget so i think after the jf17 they will go for other chinese 5th gen planes and its best to stay on a few types otherwise variations can be a problem for us

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> WJ i remember the former ACM stating that the Gripen was an advanced platform and the PAF was not ready for it. as far as EFT / Rafale go, i cant remember the PAF rejecting them! - what were the grounds for rejection? - cost probably as in the 90's with the Mirage 2000's which were offered at US$60m / aircraft.



The remark was probably a nice way of saying "no thanks", as the PAF was still keen to get the F-16s released.
The story with Rafale has been the dilemma of being a launch customer for a platform not fairing well even against the Sea Harriers and old Mirage-5s during Charles-de-Gaul sea tour.

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## jbond197

PAF can opt for Gripen too.. Heard it's a nice Fighter..

OOPs my Bad, Didn't see that option is already discussed on the thread!


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Without money.. the current force plan of 150 JF's and 100 F-16's will have to suffice..with 50-60 FC-20's when funds become available later...By the time most of the JF-17's will have been inducted.. the first Rafale squadrons will have stood up with the IAF.
> 
> Money is what matters.. and the PAF has none to spare.




You know what, Oscar, i fail to understand this money logic of yours.

Remember in the old days, the 80s when Pakistan went to USA shopping for 111 f-16s off the shelf and paying them at list price?

Now Pakistan's economy was no where near today's level. But we are crippled for funds. My question is, that each year since 1980s, PAF budget has increased, not decreased. And every successive year, it increased upon the previous increases budget. (compounding increase) so why are we short of money today? We didn't buy any hi-tech or expensive aircraft from 1990-2006. That is a good 16 years. All we bought was the cheap F-7s and used Mirages. That doesn't cost a lot of money.

So my question is, since our economy is the largest it has ever been in history, we still don't have money to increase our combat jets numbers even with Chinese aircraft (as the word goes, it's cheaper) let alone western tech.

We haven't even fought a war.

So please tell me....where has the money gone?

Because someone really needs to do auditing of PAF/Military's accounts....as they are eating the largest chunk of our budget.

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## abbasniazi

IMHO, this deal is not so momentous for the IAF but its humungous for the Rafale.

Rafale, despite being a state of the art plane was in desperate need of a huge contract of sale from a foreign customer to bring it the certificate of fieldable, viable, worth spending $$$ aircraft and this deal will do the trick for rafale, i think looking at this deal many reluctant customers will now have confidence in this platform and rafale may receive a few more contracts from the foreign customers...my 2 cents...

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## Windjammer

rockstar said:


> The reason behind actually for the rejection is



I am sure the PAF was well aware of the cost before analysing the Rafle.....and the contingent certainly didn't travel to France for a photo shoot.

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## prabhakar

Windjammer said:


> I am sure the PAF was well aware of the cost before analysing the Rafle.....and the contingent certainly didn't travel to France for a photo shoot.



please state the reasons ....


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> You know what, Oscar, i fail to understand this money logic of yours.
> 
> Remember in the old days, the 80s when Pakistan went to USA shopping for 111 f-16s off the shelf and paying them at list price?
> 
> Now Pakistan's economy was no where near today's level. But we are crippled for funds. My question is, that each year since 1980s, PAF budget has increased, not decreased. And every successive year, it increased upon the previous increases budget. (compounding increase) so why are we short of money today? We didn't buy any hi-tech or expensive aircraft from 1990-2006. That is a good 16 years. All we bought was the cheap F-7s and used Mirages. That doesn't cost a lot of money.
> 
> *So my question is, since our economy is the largest it has ever been in history, we still don't have money to increase our combat jets numbers even with Chinese aircraft (as the word goes, it's cheaper) let alone western tech.*
> 
> We haven't even fought a war.
> 
> So please tell me....where has the money gone?
> 
> Because someone really needs to do auditing of PAF/Military's accounts....as they are eating the largest chunk of our budget.



While the acquisition of cheap fighters in the late 90's was cheap but a lot was spent upgrading them, also during those times..due to the threat of sanctions we could not buy stuff that we wanted.. it was not free either. The PAF's budget increase also accounts for inflation. The best time for the PAF was just before the 2005 earthquake. We really did have the funds to even go for the EF if we wanted.. but the amount we could procure for that cost was not cost effective vs the F-16.

Currently.. despite the increasing budget figures.. its actually a relative decrease to what it was when inflation and overall economy is taken into account.
The PAF's F-16 and Erieye fleet is taking up most of the new purchase budget.. as the JF-17, the ZDK are all on deferred payments to the Chinese.
Military aircraft are expensive to maintain.. purchase cost is not the only thing that matters.
Multiple types also compound costs.. and till recently the PAF technically operated 7 different types of aircraft. with the Mirage III and V counted as two different types.

The economy today is even worse than reported.. and the PAF is struggling to even pay off the loans its owes for its purchases.


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## rockstarIN

Windjammer said:


> I am sure the PAF was well aware of the cost before analysing the Rafle.....and the contingent certainly didn't travel to France for a photo shoot.



They might be there for censer talk for JFT in early 2000s. You guys always after F-16s.


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## Imran Khan

Rocky25 said:


> JF 17 and Chinese 5th Gen aircrafts!



why we are under sanctions ? may be they hide a plan which make you surprise like never before .


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## lkozhi

Things are of great value if indian buys or chinese copies it.

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## z9-ec

The most logical answer is to pursue J-10B on priority basis with the addition of additional JF-17s as Winjammer pointed out. The reason I say so is because India will have 12 Rafales by the end of 2012.


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## Imran Khan

z9-ec said:


> The most logical answer is to pursue J-10B on priority basis with the addition of additional JF-17s as Winjammer pointed out. The reason I say so is because India will have 12 Rafales by the end of 2012.



j-10b is not yet ready to be transfered but rafale is so we have to little more wait


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## asad71

Is this coming loaded with US and Israeli eqpt, tools and weapons?


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## Imran Khan

asad71 said:


> Is this coming loaded with US and Israeli eqpt, tools and weapons?



nope french has so much to offer them dear .


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## Lankan Ranger

150 JF-17 jets (Block 1 & Block 2)

36 J-10B jets

All will be delivered to PAF by 2015

PAF Strategy for 2015  2020 will be to deal with Indian T-50 (PAK FA)

In future the main challenge for the PAF will be Indian T-50 (PAK FA), Not Rafale


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## Aamir Hussain

The Indian French Connection means:

1. The french subs are out of the equation
2. The JFT avionics are also gone for good.
3. Reliance on:
a. JFT and enhnced/improved version with combo of Chinese and Italian avionics
b. J-10 Becomes more attaractive buy. Modified J10B for PAF is now the only econimcally viable option, given the economy
c. Deep strike will be with F-16's. More will be bought or transferred. This political problem will be sorted out with gains on both side and a more even keel relationship. The Saudi connection will ensure that.

With current numbers as a baseline figure, roughly 80 odd F-16, 150+ JFT, and 60 odd J-10 will form the fighter force of roughly 300 plane force. A force equipped with BVR accross the board. 200 of these would be air refuelable (Atleast). The hunt for advanced radars will gian momentum to equip an all BVR force.

I suspect PAF will now go for enhnaced number of high altitude missile batteries to ensure point defence of airbases and stratlocs. 

We need to understand that in case of a limited scale, short duration war (The IBG's of the Cold Start are designed to inflict, short, quick thrusts to ensure limited tactical gians over atleast eight sectors), PAF would only need to defend its airspace and ensure CAS of both its Navy and Army. 

PA is already equipped with dispropotionately high number of ATGW's to blunt an armoured thrust. They would now need to be equipped with enhanced number of Manpads and mobile AAA assets.

In all its wars with India, PAF was outnumbered. In 65' it had parity in terms of quality. This qualatative edge was let go in 71'. Since than, in best of times, we have never been able to match the numbers and the increased quality of a/c being bought by India. Remember the late eighties, 200 Jaguars, and 50 Mirage 2000? While we stuck with 40 F-16 alongwith fair weather mirages and F-6's.

This is nothing new. The game is to enhance our misisle cover, both high and med altitude and increase the manpads.

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## Imran Khan

Lankan Ranger said:


> 150 JF-17 jets (Block 1 & Block 2)
> 
> 36 J-10B jets
> 
> All will be delivered to PAF by 2015
> 
> PAF Strategy for 2015 &#8211; 2020 will be to deal with Indian T-50 (PAK FA)
> 
> In future the main challenge for the PAF will be Indian T-50 (PAK FA), Not Rafale



i wish pakistan ignore this madness of arms race and stop thinking abut it as we have more then enough to defend us now .

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## z9-ec

Imran Khan said:


> j-10b is not yet ready to be transfered but rafale is so we have to little more wait



For now we can compensate with F-16s plus JF-17s. For the long term, PAF needs to fast track J-10B and not delay any further. However, we should first evaluate the package India is getting (radar, weapons and etc) and follow suit along the lines to counter it.


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## truthseeker2010

This is IMO a political decision, because technically I do not think rafale is better than EF. Anyways congrats to indians for finally raising the curtain...

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## Imran Khan

ARCHON said:


> Why was it considered not good options apart from economics? found better one ? like f-22 or something???



they are not kids as we are . they first look are they really need it? its suitable for there doctrine ? is there same capable jet with less price ? what is future of this 40 years deal? then they pic it . what if we pic it and after WOT we become under sanctions and these birds just sit idle on ground? there is so many factors then dick measure with indians for PAF or GOP before buy a jet .and a country has no full mission ko buy jets and jets they have so many other things to do .

or they must but it for make us proud on defence.pk ?

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## Donatello

Aamir Hussain said:


> The Indian French Connection means:
> 
> 1. *The french subs are out of the equation
> 2. The JFT avionics are also gone for good*.
> 3. Reliance on:
> a. JFT and enhnced/improved version with combo of Chinese and Italian avionics
> b. J-10 Becomes more attaractive buy. Modified J10B for PAF is now the only econimcally viable option, given the economy
> c. Deep strike will be with F-16's. More will be bought or transferred. This political problem will be sorted out with gains on both side and a more even keel relationship. The Saudi connection will ensure that.
> 
> With current numbers as a baseline figure, roughly 80 odd F-16, 150+ JFT, and 60 odd J-10 will form the fighter force of roughly 300 plane force. A force equipped with BVR accross the board. 200 of these would be air refuelable (Atleast). The hunt for advanced radars will gian momentum to equip an all BVR force.
> 
> I suspect PAF will now go for enhnaced number of high altitude missile batteries to ensure point defence of airbases and stratlocs.
> 
> We need to understand that in case of a limited scale, short duration war (The IBG's of the Cold Start are designed to inflict, short, quick thrusts to ensure limited tactical gians over atleast eight sectors), PAF would only need to defend its airspace and ensure CAS of both its Navy and Army.
> 
> PA is already equipped with dispropotionately high number of ATGW's to blunt an armoured thrust. They would now need to be equipped with enhanced number of Manpads and mobile AAA assets.
> 
> In all its wars with India, PAF was outnumbered. In 65' it had parity in terms of quality. This qualatative edge was let go in 71'. Since than, in best of times, we have never been able to match the numbers and the increased quality of a/c being bought by India. Remember the late eighties, 200 Jaguars, and 50 Mirage 2000? While we stuck with 40 F-16 alongwith fair weather mirages and F-6's.
> 
> This is nothing new. The game is to enhance our misisle cover, both high and med altitude and increase the manpads.




Aamir,

PN was not after French subs.....wasn't it the type 214? Or maybe you meant the Agosta 90s? I mean, PN can still procure from the Germans.

Similarly, as the Eurofighter consortium would be sitting idle after filling their existing customers, PAF can approach their avionics......like Thales/BAE systes etc for upgrade to JF-17s avionics.

Also, Italians are not out of the equation yet...only French.

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------




Oscar said:


> While the acquisition of cheap fighters in the late 90's was cheap but a lot was spent upgrading them, also during those times..due to the threat of sanctions we could not buy stuff that we wanted.. it was not free either. The PAF's budget increase also accounts for inflation. The best time for the PAF was just before the 2005 earthquake. We really did have the funds to even go for the EF if we wanted.. but the amount we could procure for that cost was not cost effective vs the F-16.
> 
> Currently.. despite the increasing budget figures.. its actually a relative decrease to what it was when inflation and overall economy is taken into account.
> The PAF's F-16 and Erieye fleet is taking up most of the new purchase budget.. as the JF-17, the ZDK are all on deferred payments to the Chinese.
> Military aircraft are expensive to maintain.. purchase cost is not the only thing that matters.
> Multiple types also compound costs.. and till recently the PAF technically operated 7 different types of aircraft. with the Mirage III and V counted as two different types.
> 
> The economy today is even worse than reported.. and the PAF is struggling to even pay off the loans its owes for its purchases.




Okay so i hid my message pretty well in my post....but what i meant was, if inflation has taken the toll, then why not on the increasing costs of the VIP expenses, BMWs and Golf Courses.

If you know what i mean.


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## DANGER-ZONE

ARCHON said:


> The topic here is rafale and possiblities yaar... not rehman malik or anything.. im not trolling vrolling.. asking u a simple question man...



If some one gives any other reason for not selecting RAFALE other then money then it might be his own claim. 
We found J-10b economical and equally capable for doing same kind of multirole jobs. SIMPLE.


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## saiyan0321

we have what we need we are going the right way get the entire air force under pakistan made products if we start an arms race like that we wont last a second our think tankers are at work they see what we need for defence and is it feasible right now jft is the best option not rafale.... remember quality not quantity and quality with spending less money is the best for us


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> They might be there for censer talk for JFT in early 2000s. You guys always after F-16s.



Nope.. the idea was of the french as they wanted to offer a Rafale purchase along with JFT avionics and weapons..


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## saiyan0321

> If some one post any other reason for not selecting RAFALE other the money then it might be his own claim.
> We found J-10b economical and equally capable for doing same kind of multirole jobs. SIMPLE.



exactly its nothing to hide or be shamed about we just dont have the cash to get the plane and even if we did that would make it to diverse we mirages f16 and jf17 now i dont think we need more diversity for one role of plane i say work the fleet and then for chinese 5th gen plane


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## Mav3rick

fatman17 said:


> the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.
> 
> what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?


 
We are very capable of defending ourselves from India, so how about we look for peace and display the same aggression in solving all conflicts/issues through peaceful dialogues. Peaceful borders mean we can concentrate on economy and matters within.

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## Jade

truthseeker2010 said:


> This is IMO a political decision, because technically I do not think rafale is better than EF. Anyways congrats to indians for finally raising the curtain...



It was not a political decision, else F18 would have won. Both EF and Rafale are equally capable planes, although EF could be slightly better. EF is better for A2A, while Rafale is good in A2G. Already India has MKI, a air superiority jet, so Rafale complements MKI better than EF. Again IAF experience with Mirage would help Rafale integration into IAF tighter. Although, I have to say the decision was based on price/unit

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## Yeti

Rafale was cheaper per unit and India already operate the Mirages so that was a big factor. Technology transfer with full source codes will come with the package.

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## Chanakyaa

Dassault's Rafale wins $10.4 billion Indian Air Force fighter deal: Report : North News - India Today

*French Dassault Rafale fighter is on course to win India's biggest defence deal ever as it has been judged the cheaper of the two finalists for a contract that could be worth up to $20 billion for 126 aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) .*

The decision on medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition has been one of the most feverishly anticipated ones in recent aerospace contracting history and is a watershed for the world weapons market.

The Rafale, built by French firm Dassault Aviation, has never been exported by the country before, making India the first export customer of the highly capable fighter jet. It saw recent operational action in Libya and has served in Afghanistan as well.

The announcement, made on Tuesday, comes as a huge relief to the French government and Dassault Aviation which had worried about expensive fighter programme which found no takers no matter how hard they tried to sell it around the world.

India's decision was a massive affirmation of the aircraft and its capabilities and would be seen as a huge boost to the beleaguered Rafale programme.

The Indian government would now negotiate with the French to arrive at the best possible price for 126 fighters. A deal would be signed before the end of March this year.

Eurofighter Typhoon was the other final contender in the race for the country's biggest defence deal. In April 2011, as reported by Headlines Today, four other contenders were eliminated from the competition in a shock setback for the companies involved.

Those to be dropped from the reckoning included Sweden's Saab (Gripen), American firms Boeing and Lockheed-Martin with the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper respectively and Russia's MiG-35.


Read more at:Dassault's Rafale wins $10.4 billion Indian Air Force fighter deal: Report : North News - India Today

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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.
> 
> what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?



Lets face the truth we have no cash to match with the rapid modernization of indian defence forces .... they are playing their cards right along with the money its the brain that needs to work... we had the luxury of US , France and other western nations for almost 50 years but we didnt took the advantage and never played our cards right ...also thanks to our economy and doomed democracy cum dictatorship ...and they got just 10 years of luxury to be the customer of west and they showed us how to play the cards rightly .....

We have no option other then to play around with fc-20 ...the only thing we can do is modifying the fc-20 to make it par with the selected aircraft with best options we have.... but the hindrance remains the same i.e money ....Jf-17 block 2 and 3 is still long way away may be the former one is nearer then anticipated but the later one seems to be long away

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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Similarly, as the Eurofighter consortium would be sitting idle after filling their existing customers, PAF can approach their avionics......like Thales/BAE systes etc for upgrade to* JF-17s avionics.*
> 
> Also, Italians are not out of the equation yet...only French.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay so i hid my message pretty well in my post....but what i meant was, if inflation has taken the toll, then why not on the increasing costs of the VIP expenses, BMWs and Golf Courses.
> 
> If you know what i mean.



First.. the JF-17's avionics are fairly satisfactory.. infact.. more than satisfactory as far as the PAF is concerned.
The europeans arent all out of the game yet.. MBDA is a major supplier for the Rafale's weapons and will send a fair share of profits to the EU's way.


As for the second part.. that is being slowly cut down now.. as some sense has been knocked into the PAF leadership.
However.. there are still unanswered blackholes in our military's budget..


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## Chanakyaa

Oscar said:


> First.. the JF-17's avionics are fairly satisfactory.. infact.. more than satisfactory as far as the PAF is concerned.
> The europeans arent all out of the game yet.. MBDA is a major supplier for the Rafale's weapons and will send a fair share of profits to the EU's way.
> 
> 
> As for the second part.. that is being slowly cut down now.. as some sense has been knocked into the PAF leadership.
> However.. there are still unanswered blackholes in our military's budget..



To be Honest The Picture is NOT that Optimistic.

1. No American F16s
2. No French Avionics ( I heard PAK have no satifaction in Chines Ones... though they were cheaper )
3. No French Subs
4. No Money 
5. No Qualified/Competent Leadership

The Only Option for 1+2+3+4+5 = Chinese

Now Plz be Honest And Ask Yourself if things are really satisfactory.

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## Aamir Hussain

Donatello said:


> Aamir,
> 
> PN was not after French subs.....wasn't it the type 214? Or maybe you meant the Agosta 90s? I mean, PN can still procure from the Germans.
> 
> Similarly, as the Eurofighter consortium would be sitting idle after filling their existing customers, PAF can approach their avionics......like Thales/BAE systes etc for upgrade to JF-17s avionics.
> 
> Also, Italians are not out of the equation yet...only French.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay so i hid my message pretty well in my post....but what i meant was, if inflation has taken the toll, then why not on the increasing costs of the VIP expenses, BMWs and Golf Courses.
> 
> If you know what i mean.



D'tello:

Missed my point 3a. The Italian connection is there. Yes the Euro /Thales option would be an interesting development.

If PN was thinking of building more A90B's (modified). than that as an option ssems less likely now.


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## jha

Imran Khan said:


> they are not kids as we are . they first look are they really need it? its suitable for there doctrine ? is there same capable jet with less price ? what is future of this 40 years deal? then they pic it . what if we pic it and after WOT we become under sanctions and these birds just sit idle on ground? there is so many factors then dick measure with indians for PAF or GOP before buy a jet .and a country has no full mission ko buy jets and jets they have so many other things to do .
> 
> or they must but it for make us proud on defence.pk ?



Best Comment of the thread...

Would like to add some more things... L1 is not the sole criteria on which Rafale has been selected. France has sweetened the deal by offering so much under the table that it was impossible to resist.
Plus Germany did not help it when they refused to supply guns to police force of two states on the grounds of Human right violations. Now that India has money and spend and options on the table, chances of a sanction prone plane being selected was pretty less...

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## Tshering22

PAF made the selection long before MRCA was selected. I thought PAF had already made its mind for the JF-17 and the J-10B. . Please confirm.


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## Abingdonboy

Windjammer said:


> I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
> Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
> Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.



It is not rocket science either to see that the IAF is more than likely to induct 200+ MMRCA which is more than the number of JFT PAF is looking to induct so the numerical advantage argument is out not to mention of course the quality is on MMRCA's side so you'd be looking at 350-450 JFTs to counter MMRCA, maybe 200 Chinese 5th gen (whenever this happens). Additonally the IAF also has/is getting 300+ MKI and 150+ LCA (Mk.1 + 2) and at least 3 SQD (of a 250 unit order) of FGFA 5th gen fighters by the end of the decade. 


I'd love to see what members would suggest for PAF to counter this.

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## Imran Khan

Tshering22 said:


> PAF made the selection long before MRCA was selected. I thought PAF had already made its mind for the JF-17 and the J-10B. . Please confirm.



at this time its cleared and they are more then happy on it .as they start project they was clear mind abut future .there is not gonna change but now it will be game of j-18 or j-20 next


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## Tshering22

Mani2020 said:


> Lets face the truth we have no cash to match with the rapid modernization of indian defence forces .... they are playing their cards right along with the money its the brain that needs to work



Are you kidding me?! We are decades behind our modernization program! The ruling governments in last 4 terms was supposed to have started replacing our jets. IAF was supposed to be flying the replacements since at least 2-3 years ago. But it is selected now while it would take another 2-3 years before 2-3 squadrons can come up. It would take at least upto 2020 if HAL makes it. I hope Dassault makes the jets and we just make around 50 or something. We cannot put Rafale hostage to HAL's already high workload. They are already working with more than 4 projects at hand. 



> ... we had the luxury of US , France and other western nations for almost 50 years but we didnt took the advantage and never played our cards right ...also thanks to our economy and doomed democracy cum dictatorship ...and they got just 10 years of luxury to be the customer of west and they showed us how to play the cards rightly .....



Our economy started rising only 2000 onwards when the fruits of 1991 liberalization and relatively strong implementation policies of NDA (BJP) government started showing its colors. You had the option of Gripens and Mirages for quite long. Your generals chose F-16s always for the battle proven tag (any jet has to be first tested in a war to make it battle proven; F-16 has just seen a lot of wars compared to other jets). 



> We have no option other then to play around with fc-20 ...the only thing we can do is modifying the fc-20 to make it par with the selected aircraft with best options we have.... but the hindrance remains the same i.e money ....Jf-17 block 2 and 3 is still long way away may be the former one is nearer then anticipated but the later one seems to be long away



We are inducting Tejas as well.... it is a new start for us too. Every jet becomes proven only with putting it into use just like we gain experience after only repeating something for a number of years. Your air force needs to focus on other threats than us. We have proven in the last 10 years that your military is the least of our concerns and our concentration is economic enhancement. 

Your choices of jets are good enough if you are willing to use them wisely. *Put them to use against the enemy on the other side of the border rather than focusing all against us. Nothing will come out of it. *

In fact, the first "battle proven" tag you can easily acquire; utilize these jets in strike operations against TTP and Taliban. They are a threat to your country's peace as well (which many of your people don't realize). Since both JF and J-10 are mutirole, ground ops shouldn't be a problem for them. 

*Solve your real problems first. Trust me, things will settle down very well for you guys as well.* 

Cheers.

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## Abingdonboy

Imran Khan said:


> at this time its cleared and they are more then happy on it .as they start project they was clear mind abut future .there is not gonna change but now it will be game of j-18 or j-20 next



I thought it has already been stated the PAF Couldn't afford the J-20 type ac (especially as it is twin engined) and the former is a paper plane with the second most likely being a technology demonstrator only.


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> at ~US$100m / EFT with infrastructure it looks prohibitive at best.


Aside from infrastructure, the key problem with European aircrafts is that they are in limited operation. For example to date, the only operators of rafale are French Air and Naval Force. This situation is a bit tricky in a way that french are not only known for selling expensive but being among the few customers means that effectively you have to fund the development of the program. French can always call upon Indians to say, "hey, we have so and so products to offer you for an upgrade but Indians will effectively be funding development costs, making program more expensive through its life cycle. EF had a better advantage interms of operational sustainability since it is now being operated by a lot of countries. Even I think JFTs produced in Pakistan with local gadgets would be more expensive than from platforms with Chinese systems since the PAF would be the sole bearer of development costs, probably thats why we see Chinese avionics making their way in Block II (ofcourse it can be argued that these avionics are advanced than block I, but even with that these avionics are not PAF specific and in production for PLAAF and PLAN as well, making them more affordable). Chinese have followed an unconventional development approach i.e. the development takes place at top level (J-20) and then it is injected into other platforms (J-10,J-11,J-15) so effectively there is a J-20 then J-20ish J-10 (J-10B) J-20ish J-11, J-20ish JH-7 and J-20ish J-15. I can speculate that with probable J-20ish FC-20, we can also expect J-20ish JF-17 (Clear case in point, AESA which was developed for J-20 but is speculated to have made its way in atleast J-10B, J-15 and more likely to be ending up in other platforms as well)

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## Imran Khan

Abingdonboy said:


> I thought it has already been stated the PAF Couldn't afford the J-20 type ac (especially as it is twin engined) and the former is a paper plane with the second most likely being a technology demonstrator only.



so after 5 years all budget to to buy new uniforms for cadets and jet fuel for JF-17 ? don't be so smart man there is future and economy will not remain same nor it was same in past . when world leading air forces going to 5th gen PAF will stuck on jf-17 j-10 and f-10 until 2030 because we have to buy single engine


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## CaptainJackSparrow

jha said:


> Best Comment of the thread...
> 
> Would like to add some more things... L1 is not the sole criteria on which Rafale has been selected. France has sweetened the deal by offering so much under the table that it was impossible to resist.
> Plus G*ermany did not help it when they refused to supply guns to police force of two states on the grounds of Human right violations.* Now that India has money and spend and options on the table, chances of a sanction prone plane being selected was pretty less...



That might have been THE reason for all we know. 

I can't believe the Germans could be $20bn silly.


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## SBD-3

Abingdonboy said:


> It is not rocket science either to see that the IAF is more than likely to induct 200+ MMRCA which is more than the number of JFT PAF is looking to induct so the numerical advantage argument is out not to mention of course the quality is on MMRCA's side so you'd be looking at 350-450 JFTs to counter MMRCA, maybe 200 Chinese 5th gen (whenever this happens). Additonally the IAF also has/is getting 300+ MKI and 150+ LCA (Mk.1 + 2) and at least 3 SQD (of a 250 unit order) of FGFA 5th gen fighters by the end of the decade.
> 
> 
> I'd love to see what members would suggest for PAF to counter this.


The story behind 20 Billion USD deal was that 20Billion USD is the cost of orignal order (120-MMRCA) which has been escalated due to delays, inflations and of course the expected currency devaluations over the ten years. The requirements by IAF were later increased to 200 MMRCAs which was misreported by Indian Media as a part of deal (Which would cost much more than 20 Billion dollars after accounting for additional 80 aircrafts). Secondly, in all these 10 years, there has only been technical evaluations and the commercial negotiations are yet to come after the announcement of tender. However, Janes reported that the price difference between the parties was *only 5%* means that there was no expectation of price benefits from tendering process leading to the need for further commercial negotiations.


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## T90TankGuy

eowyn said:


> any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?



come on they don't have the money for one , second i doubt the EF will even be offered to them .


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## CaptainJackSparrow

jbgt90 said:


> come on they don't have the money for one , second i doubt the EF will even be offered to them .



I'm sure the Europeans also know that any modern technology in Pakistani hands is bound to land up in China. 

...and with EFT having US made components as well, the chances of a future sale to Pakistan are rather sllim.


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## SBD-3

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> I'm sure the Europeans also know that any modern technology in Pakistani hands is bound to land up in China.
> 
> ...and with EFT having US made components as well, the chances of a future sale to Pakistan are rather sllim.


FYI China has taken a much more direct route, they have acquired a fair amount of defense tech firms in Europe and are looking for more......

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## SBD-3

Here you go Jackie


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## CaptainJackSparrow

hasnain0099 said:


> FYI China has taken a much more direct route, they have acquired a fair amount of defense tech firms in Europe and are looking for more......



all that stuff still has a long way to go before it shows up any solid results for you guys


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## Tshering22

hasnain0099 said:


> The story behind 20 Billion USD deal was that 20Billion USD is the cost of orignal order (120-MMRCA) which has been escalated due to delays, inflations and of course the expected currency devaluations over the ten years. The requirements by IAF were later increased to 200 MMRCAs which was misreported by Indian Media as a part of deal (Which would cost much more than 20 Billion dollars after accounting for additional 80 aircrafts).



The rupee has gained with the same pace it lost to the dollar in the last one month. Be my guest to check the news. It was writing on the wall that we would go for 200+ jets of the type. With 4 types of jets each targeted at between 150-250 jets, our idea is 100% replacement of old aircraft plus increase the fighter fleet to at least 1,200 jets in the coming 1-2 decades.

We naturally need this boost, you know. 



> Secondly, in all these 10 years, there has only been technical evaluations and the commercial negotiations are yet to come after the announcement of tender.* However, Janes reported that the price difference between the parties was only 5% means that there was no expectation of price benefits from tendering process leading to the need for further commercial negotiations.*



There is more than one type of costs incurred mate. One is the flyaway cost aka the cost for available jet. Another one and that one is major, is the lifecycle and facilities cost that any nation has to incur in setting up facilities. Earlier while we had a zoo of fleet in 70s and 80s, all were sources from 90% from 1 country aka USSR. Today we have a very diverse fleet and getting Typhoons in would have meant two things:

1- retain existing facilities for those aircraft who don't require immediate replacements

2- build new facilities for maintenance, operation and other tertiaries for the totally unfamiliar and new Typhoons. 

Dassault has a big presence in India and a very historic one. We already have facilities for Mirage 2000s all over the country which would need only some new enhancements and Rafales are good to go. 

________________

The same reason why PAF went for JF-17s and FC-20s: apart from low fly-away costs and relative political independence, the life-cycle costs for both the jets would be best bang for the buck, since you have Chinese jets for a long time and existing facilities would only need limited facelift to get the new jets going for 'em.

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------




hasnain0099 said:


> FYI China has taken a much more direct route, they have acquired a fair amount of defense tech firms in Europe and are looking for more......


 
Every country around the planet has a method that suits them man.

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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> WJ i remember the former ACM stating that the Gripen was an advanced platform and the PAF was not ready for it. as far as EFT / Rafale go, I cant remember the PAF rejecting them! - what were the grounds for rejection? - cost probably as in the 90's with the Mirage 2000's which were offered at US$60m / aircraft.



Thailand-Hungry-S.Africa can operate Gripens while PAF has excuses. PAF has set its directions F-16s/JF-17s and if money is available FC-20s. But it is time PAF look for AESA option for the F-16 Fleet atleast. And FC-20 if ever lands in should come by default with AESA.

PAF never openly rejects unlike hindustan. PAF backed down due to higher price tag and technology it couldn't cope with, I would still say the current direction is all PAF is heading into no other platform until next 10 Years.

Has anyone calculated the cost of 18 F-16s at $3.1B including all weapons systems and setup etc i would recommend others to calculate the life time cost of these 18 F-16s these are not cheap thus to F-16 procurement for PAF is equally costly. IF PAF can windup all troubles with US are order to level the figure of 100 F-16s with AESA it would be cost effective solution from the point of view of F-16s.

At the end of day thankyou ppp/pml-n-q you fkup economy you suffer.


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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.
> 
> what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?



great news for Dassault, the company saved from financial ruin


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## Windjammer

Abingdonboy said:


> It is not rocket science either to see that the IAF is more than likely to induct 200+ MMRCA which is more than the number of JFT PAF is looking to induct so the numerical advantage argument is out not to mention of course the quality is on MMRCA's side so you'd be looking at 350-450 JFTs to counter MMRCA, maybe 200 Chinese 5th gen (whenever this happens). Additonally the IAF also has/is getting 300+ MKI and 150+ LCA (Mk.1 + 2) and at least 3 SQD (of a 250 unit order) of FGFA 5th gen fighters by the end of the decade.
> 
> 
> I'd love to see what members would suggest for PAF to counter this.


Seems you didn't pick up the psyche of my post, let me put it this way, for the price of a single Rafale, the PAF can field at least 4 JF-17s, for argument sake translate that into, say IAF sends one to attack Pakistan while PAF deploys 4 for the same price tag, take out the Rafale, and there is no joy for you, on the other hand, even if PAF loses 50% of the strike force, the remainder could still do some damage. You can argue about the quantity all you like but keep in mind that it's the IAF which has to defend a much wider blue yonder. Every airforce has it's own operational requirements, PAF refused both the MiG-21 and SU-7 when offered by Russia in the late 60s, as they never met PAF specifications, yet 20 years later it opted for the MiG derivative, the F-7 because it filled the requirement.
Regardless of what you or others may deploy, the focus for the PAF has always been Quality rather than quantity, since at the end of the day, all that matters is the pilot factor.


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## Irfan Baloch

eowyn said:


> any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?


its not TIT for TAT purchase.
J-10 will provide whatever PAF might get from EF2000.


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## Imran Khan

jbgt90 said:


> come on they don't have the money for one , second i doubt the EF will even be offered to them .


again same kiddish post lolz when did PAF chief informed GOP that they need jets for counter india? its not the system in a country or air force have to manage it by own lolz  when they need it they will must inform to law makers .as before


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## prabhakar

Windjammer said:


> Seems you didn't pick up the psyche of my post, let me put it this way, for the price of a single Rafale, the PAF can field at least 4 JF-17s, for argument sake translate that into, say IAF sends one to attack Pakistan while PAF deploys 4 for the same price tag, take out the Rafale, and there is no joy for you, on the other hand, even if PAF loses 50% of the strike force, the remainder could still do some damage. You can argue about the quantity all you like but keep in mind that it's the IAF which has to defend a much wider blue yonder. Every airforce has it's own operational requirements, PAF refused both the MiG-21 and SU-7 when offered by Russia in the late 60s, as they never met PAF specifications, yet 20 years later it opted for the MiG derivative, the F-7 because it filled the requirement.
> Regardless of what you or others may deploy, the focus for the PAF has always been Quality rather than quantity, since at the end of the day, all that matters is the pilot factor.



the basic fallacy of your post is there for everyone to see.. let me put it simply for you

You don't have quality

and

You don't have quantity

Please don't make yourself as laughing stock by implying that PAF rejected both the birds on the basis of quality. The best you have is F-16 BLK 52 and for your info a better version of it with AESA has been rejected by IAF. 

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------




Irfan Baloch said:


> its not TIT for TAT purchase.
> J-10 will provide whatever PAF might get from EF2000.



It is not yet operational.. operational manuals are yet to decide. IAF will also take her sweet time to know the full capability of RAfale

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## manojb

In my opinion paf wud prefered india to choose eft. This way they cud made deal with frenchy. French can still sell their goodies but at ticket price. And now their prod lines r busy. With bad relation with nato , paf is stuck with china. Pstan can make smart move and sign deal woth russia. Then again russia and west r wary of china copying their tech.


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## SBD-3

Tshering22 said:


> The rupee has gained with the same pace it lost to the dollar in the last one month. Be my guest to check the news. It was writing on the wall that we would go for 200+ jets of the type. With 4 types of jets each targeted at between 150-250 jets, our idea is 100% replacement of old aircraft plus increase the fighter fleet to at least 1,200 jets in the coming 1-2 decades.
> 
> We naturally need this boost, you know.
> 
> 
> 
> There is more than one type of costs incurred mate. One is the flyaway cost aka the cost for available jet. Another one and that one is major, is the lifecycle and facilities cost that any nation has to incur in setting up facilities. Earlier while we had a zoo of fleet in 70s and 80s, all were sources from 90% from 1 country aka USSR. Today we have a very diverse fleet and getting Typhoons in would have meant two things:
> 
> 1- retain existing facilities for those aircraft who don't require immediate replacements
> 
> 2- build new facilities for maintenance, operation and other tertiaries for the totally unfamiliar and new Typhoons.
> 
> Dassault has a big presence in India and a very historic one. We already have facilities for Mirage 2000s all over the country which would need only some new enhancements and Rafales are good to go.
> 
> ________________
> 
> The same reason why PAF went for JF-17s and FC-20s: apart from low fly-away costs and relative political independence, the life-cycle costs for both the jets would be best bang for the buck, since you have Chinese jets for a long time and existing facilities would only need limited facelift to get the new jets going for 'em.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Every country around the planet has a method that suits them man.


1- I am talking about cost escalation over a decade, not a month or two as you're implying
2- I think you got me wrong on the tendering point as well, why do firms tender? lets just say we have X as total costs including both life cycle and flyaway costs. The tendering is intended to yield the lowest price taking advantage of the competition and information asymmetry between the suppliers. with such minute difference in tendering bids, what i said between the lines was that 1)at least one of the manufacturer was able to make inroads in MoD or Evaluation team about other's price. And all it had to do was to just outbid the other 2) The costs spikes were genuine enough that both could not afford much lower prices than the tender. Take an example that you are DA and you dont know what EDAS is going to bid, you will certainly make a much lesser bid (say 70) to outbid the EDAS, but when you know that EDAS has made a bid of 95 you can easily outbid him at 93 which results in you winning the tender but no commercial benefit for the buyer (IAF).


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Windjammer said:


> Seems you didn't pick up the psyche of my post, let me put it this way, for the price of a single Rafale, the PAF can field at least 4 JF-17s, for argument sake translate that into, say IAF sends one to attack Pakistan while PAF deploys 4 for the same price tag, take out the Rafale, and there is no joy for you, on the other hand, even if PAF loses 50% of the strike force, the remainder could still do some damage. You can argue about the quantity all you like but keep in mind that it's the IAF which has to defend a much wider blue yonder. Every airforce has it's own operational requirements, PAF refused both the MiG-21 and SU-7 when offered by Russia in the late 60s, as they never met PAF specifications, yet 20 years later it opted for the MiG derivative, the F-7 because it filled the requirement.
> Regardless of what you or others may deploy, the focus for the PAF has always been Quality rather than quantity, since at the end of the day, *all that matters is the pilot factor*.



Ah! you had to take the dive in the end..Till then it was a factually reasonable post. While Pilot does make a difference, its not all that matters now.. Is it?

Also your start of the post and end do not match. In the beginning you are harping on the tactic of numeric superiority with a cheaper plane and then you polish off by saying PAF is always about Quality and NOT quantity..

And finally, your hypothesis of 4 cheap JFTs for the cost of 1 Rafale holds good only if the spending power of PAF is in parity with the spending power of IAF. Now we all know, thats not the case. PAF will never spend 10 billion dollars to counter the MMRCA, which means no joy on 500 JFTs as you propose to counter 126 MMRCA..

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## LaBong

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> Ah! you had to take the dive in the end..Till then it was a factually reasonable post. While Pilot does make a difference, its not all that matters now.. Is it?
> 
> Also your start of the post and end do not match. In the beginning you are harping on the tactic of numeric superiority with a cheaper plane and then you polish off by saying PAF is always about Quality and NOT quantity..
> 
> And finally, your hypothesis of 4 cheap JFTs for the cost of 1 Rafale holds good only if the spending power of PAF is in parity with the spending power of IAF. Now we all know, thats not the case. PAF will never spend 10 billion dollars to counter the MMRCA, which means no joy on 500 JFTs as you propose to counter 126 MMRCA..



Even if they can match in spending power it's foolish to buy 4 jfts for 1 rafale. It necessarily means they need to field 4 times more pilots build up 4 times more infra. And it won't be a rafale dog fighting with 4 jft, in most cases rafale will see those jft and fire bvrs and escape before those jfts sense anything.

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## SBD-3

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> Ah! you had to take the dive in the end..Till then it was a factually reasonable post. While Pilot does make a difference, its not all that matters now.. Is it?
> 
> Also your start of the post and end do not match. In the beginning you are harping on the tactic of numeric superiority with a cheaper plane and then you polish off by saying PAF is always about Quality and NOT quantity..
> 
> And finally, your hypothesis of 4 cheap JFTs for the cost of 1 Rafale holds good only if the spending power of PAF is in parity with the spending power of IAF. Now we all know, thats not the case. PAF will never spend 10 billion dollars to counter the MMRCA, which means no joy on 500 JFTs as you propose to counter 126 MMRCA..


Of course it doesn't matter, if you're on XBoX. I can still remember IAF Chief's remarks on Mig Crashes saying the young pilots weren't able to handle them. A good jockey knows the strengths and weaknesses of his horse and optimize his performance by keeping them in view.


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

LaBong said:


> Even if they can match in spending power it's foolish to buy 4 jfts for 1 rafale. It necessarily means they need to field 4 times more pilots build up 4 times more infra. And it won't be a rafale dog fighting with 4 jft, in most cases rafale will see those jft and fire bvrs and escape before those jfts sense anything.



You and I seem to be of the same mind .. This is what i replied to the esteemed Windjammer sir a few hours back, but he doesnt seem to get it.. 



AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> Tell that to a platoon of rifle wielding soldiers going up against 2 soldiers with M 16s
> 
> A couple of other points..
> 
> 1. The flyaway cost difference between a JF 17 and Rafale is probably closer to 3x or so.
> 2. You are forgetting the pilot cost component. FOr 3 JF 17s you would want to field against 1 rafale, you would need to ready and maintain 3x no. of pilots and 3x amount of local infrastructure.. Once you factor that in, the cost advantage over the life cycle doesnt remain that favorable. That is mainly the reason why countries are moving towards smaller forces of highly competent planes vs larger number of low end ones.
> 
> On a lighter note, if you want to take your girlfriend to a party, what would you prefer.. 1 Mercedes slk or 10 Suzuki Mehrans

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## prabhakar

hasnain0099 said:


> Of course it doesn't matter, if you're on XBoX. I can still remember IAF Chief's remarks on Mig Crashes saying the young pilots weren't able to handle them. A good jockey knows the strengths and weaknesses of his horse and optimize his performance by keeping them in view.



This is a subjective matter...


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## anathema

Windjammer said:


> Seems you didn't pick up the psyche of my post, let me put it this way, *for the price of a single Rafale, the PAF can field at least 4 JF-17s*, for argument sake translate that into, say IAF sends one to attack Pakistan while PAF deploys 4 for the same price tag, take out the Rafale, and there is no joy for you, on the other hand, even if PAF loses 50% of the strike force, the remainder could still do some damage.



WJ - one problem in that thought process . Taking your example above. Assuming price of 1 Rafale = Price of 4 JF17's.

IAF is/will spend $20B on this acquisition. Will PAF spend $20B to acquire 4*JF17 - to match up with Rafale numbers ? If PAF has that kind of money then why wont they end up selecting plane like gripen or EF itself ?

Further more - More JF17's - More pilots - More infrastructure - More maintenance. So you are looking at mothball effect. 

So even though logically your reasoning may work - but practically and in reality - it may not !!

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## Whazzup

LOL 115 users browsing this thread

Look there cannot be a perfect answer to this however I would like to say this (or hate to say this) no matter what is the economical condition of Pak your def forces have always taken the wright choice of procurement so no worries. 

At the current stage it will be better for Paf to stick with 4 sqd of F16 blk52 and 200 JF 17 blk2 backed by manpads and SAMs.

If FC 20 is not a 5th gen plane then its useless to buy it.(just my thought)


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## Windjammer

prabhakar said:


> the basic fallacy of your post is there for everyone to see.. let me put it simply for you
> 
> You don't have quality
> 
> and
> 
> You don't have quantity
> 
> Please don't make yourself as laughing stock by implying that PAF rejected both the birds on the basis of quality. The best you have is F-16 BLK 52 and for your info a better version of it with AESA has been rejected by IAF.



There you go digressing in a childish manner, where exactly did i say the Rafale or EFT lacked quality, the MiG-21 example is sufficient for little comprehension.


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## SBD-3

An interesting report, highlights spending more doesn't necessarily means better capabilities






---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------




prabhakar said:


> This is a subjective matter...


A subjective matter about what?


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## Trisonics

jackhammer2 said:


> LOL 115 users browsing this thread
> 
> *Look there cannot be a perfect answer *


 
Actually there is.. that too without spending a penny on defense equipment. It's always the underdog and least preferred weapon when it comes to IND-PAK and its usually called "Dialogue".

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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

hasnain0099 said:


> An interesting report, highlights spending more doesn't necessarily means better capabilities



Necessarily - No
Mostly - Yes

Just like spending less = worse capabilities

Necessarily - No
Mostly - Yes

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## SBD-3

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> So you think a great pilot in a sopwith camel can take out a rookie flying an F22 ??
> 
> Please do focus on my comment about Pilot skill is not ALL that matters..


An good F-15 pilot can certainly take out a bad F-22 Pilot please see again the red flag review where the american pilot highlights the weak point of F-22


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## ziaulislam

well, it seems french may have used their tramp card, same it used when we were doing agosta b deal..
for india sake lets hope it doesnt become another scandal along with their previous one.....


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## Alphacharlie

Rafale - Technologically Superior Machine. Congratulations IAF

If I go by logic of above notes :-

10 Spit fires should be equal to 1 Mig 15
10 Mig 15 = 1 JF17 
This means, 100 spit fires equal = 1 Rafale "Impreposterous"

I fail to understand, If I can paint you from a Distance of 60-100 miles why should I come close and engage in Dog Fight. Pilot Skills stills are still valued. If I plot a graf of Human skills to Technology at one stage technology surpasses the Human Pilot skills. 

Theoretically days of Dog fights were surpassed in Early 80s. Americans "DACT" excluded Dog fights w.e.f 1980s.

This Machine (Rafale) Cements hold of IAF on subcontinent. It also gives warning to Mr Han to be careful.

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## Whazzup

LaBong said:


> Even if they can match in spending power it's foolish to buy 4 jfts for 1 rafale. It necessarily means they need to field 4 times more pilots build up 4 times more infra. And it won't be a rafale dog fighting with 4 jft, in most cases rafale will see those jft and fire bvrs and escape before those jfts sense anything.



Very true not to mention that this means PAF cannot fight a long fight as for every crashed plane you can replace it with another fighter but its takes years to train anoter pilot.

@Windjammer mate you can comfort your self by saying that Pilot is a major kill factor in air combets but the truth is in BVR its the avionics which plays the major role (god this is not f@#$ing 80s )


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## KRAIT

FC-20 is not fifth gen. aircraft (J-20 Mighty Dragon). FC-20 is modified J-10 according to Pakistan's requirements.


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## SBD-3

ziaulislam said:


> well, it seems french may have used their tramp card, same it used when we were doing agosta b deal..
> for india sake lets hope it doesnt become another scandal along with their previous one.....


And not to forget the HAWK trainer deal took TWO DECADES to materialize.....MMRCA is not far from that record...


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## Shaurya

ziaulislam said:


> well, it seems french may have used their tramp card, same it used when we were doing agosta b deal..
> for india sake lets hope it doesnt become another scandal along with their previous one.....



Dont know why you ppl. like to live on cloud 9 ,,, come to the reality my friend.. it was the lowest bidder so got selected, and look whos talking, how is ur country's mullah politics any better may I know??

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## mkg00179504

Guys relax.PAF and the guys sitting at the air headquarters know their job.PAF will go ahead with more F16,JF 17 and FC 20 with best available avionics.My brother in law is pilot in PAF.I asked him and his OC who was wing commander about EFT,Rafale,FC 20 and diff jets.All pilots who were present there told me one thing.The aircraft it self does not matter that much,what matter is its pilot, radar,avionics, weapons and range.But for PAF range is not a big issue and pilot is something we are proud of.His OC said if you look at F16 people will tell you mann it was made in 80s its old this and that.But look at F16 block 60 which can knockout almost any jet.Same thing with F15.If they all were so useless after some years then why air forces around the world will fly them.just go and make new jets.My visit to the base was a morale booster.When i told them about MKI,EF,Rafale,and other jets they were just smiling.Everyone said we believe in ourselves and in our training so for us this is what matters. OC wing commander was so confident he said give me F16 block 60 or even block 52 i can take on anything, he said again anything.Except raptor because its in diff class or i may surprise him in close fight as well. This is what coming out from a wing commander of PAF and there are many like him.one more thing he told me in close combat your super jet is not going to save you but your skills will.If that was the case F16 could have escaped when it was locked by A5 and F7P.They also said no doubt technology is what needed for future conflicts,but the pilot factor will still be there.So what i am trying to say is that PAF knows its job.They know how to counter something and everyone is looking forward to future JF17s and FC20.

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## Whazzup

hasnain0099 said:


> An good F-15 pilot can certainly take out a bad F-22 Pilot please see again the red flag review where the american pilot highlights the weak point of F-22



If you like to go in a war after reading reports on internet and beleiving them then be my guest but if you would like to see the reality then in the present world of BVR and stealth the winner is that pilot who detects his enemy first and for that you need better fighter not pilot.


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## ziaulislam

jbond197 said:


> PAF can opt for Gripen too.. Heard it's a nice Fighter..
> 
> OOPs my Bad, Didn't see that option is already discussed on the thread!


why gripen, it would have made no sense to opt for new plateform when u can get f-16 which outperforms gripen in range etc 
gripen would could also have been sanctioned due to american parts, so no obvious advantage for it..

regarding thunder, in the end its atleast 4 times cheaper than rafale with enough capability to withstand its ground..


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## Jackdaws

Now that India has the Rafa - will Pak name their planes Djoko?

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## ziaulislam

katwe said:


> Dont know why you ppl. like to live on cloud 9 ,,, come to the reality my friend.. it was the lowest bidder so got selected, and look whos talking, how is ur country's mullah politics any better may I know??



i am just saying that the french are notorious for it, and unfortunately India had a bit few in past that serious damaged them, you know about the india sub deal in 80s and india towed gun deals that made a mess..

i am quiet sure that this deal was clean(atleast we hope so)


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## KRAIT

mkg00179504 said:


> Guys relax.PAF and the guys sitting at the air headquarters know their job.PAF will go ahead with more F16,JF 17 and FC 20 with best available avionics.My brother in law is pilot in PAF.I asked him and his OC who was wing commander about EFT,Rafale,FC 20 and diff jets.All pilots who were present there told me one thing.The aircraft it self does not matter that much,what matter is its pilot, radar,avionics, weapons and range.But for PAF range is not a big issue and pilot is something we are proud of.His OC said if you look at F16 people will tell you mann it was made in 80s its old this and that.But look at F16 block 60 which can knockout almost any jet.Same thing with F15.If they all were so useless after some years then why air forces around the world will fly them.just go and make new jets.My visit to the base was a morale booster.When i told them about MKI,EF,Rafale,and other jets they were just smiling.Everyone said we believe in ourselves and in our training so for us this is what matters. OC wing commander was so confident he said give me F16 block 60 or even block 52 i can take on anything, he said again anything.Except raptor because its in diff class or i may surprise him in close fight as well. This is what coming out from a wing commander of PAF and there are many like him.one more thing he told me in close combat your super jet is not going to save you but your skills will.If that was the case F16 could have escaped when it was locked by A5 and F7P.They also said no doubt technology is what needed for future conflicts,but the pilot factor will still be there.So what i am trying to say is that PAF knows its job.They know how to counter something and everyone is looking forward to future JF17s and FC20.



Nice post man... Loved the part "When i told them about MKI,EF,Rafale,and other jets they were just smiling.Everyone said we believe in ourselves and in our training so for us this is what matters."

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## ziaulislam

i dont think so PAF will counter indian aircrafts on one to one basis.
it will still go for two types of aircrafts..one for strike capabilities and other as a workhorse

this deal will only make PAF to do necessary adjustments in all of its already planned aircrafts, as it did when su 30 were inducted..
as whatever aircraft enter our space it will be the thunder facing them , it doesn't work like if a rafale,su 30 comes a different aircrft will face it and for mig29 a different one will.


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## Stealth

Before go for any plan PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES Heads first learn how to RUN THE ORGANIZATION and HOW TO MAKE THE POLICY this Military put his ownd hand in this WOT... without using BRAIN! frankly speaking today after 10 years lost 80B $$$$ in which you can buy 100 EF and RAfale....

this Military is totally USELESS Frankly speaking.... ZERO % performance of this armed forces from last 10 years... **** the training training n damn training excuses...

i said this 3 years back..... India will go for ANY FIGHTER and at that time PAKISTAN MILITARY Just "ham ye kardengay ham woh kardeengay khali batain *****gay bas" kareengay kuch nahi...

We don't know how much our Army is corrupt how these generals bridgadiers Wing Commanders Naval heads owned milion billion of prices homes house and 20 30 mercedes n BMWz in their house from where they get money... infact after 4 5 years on PDF i just learned only 1 thing... After 1990... the reaction.. policy... and play style of Pakistan Forces .... WE DONT NEED ENEMY frankly speaking we have most worst enemy in our own house who RULE the state who allow corrupt generals and after wheneverwant to save their ***** call corrupt politicians... 

MARK MY WORD

THIS JF17 cheap and old techie 3.5 gen plane OUR AIRFORCES WILL USE TILL 2050! @ that time ... India and all our enemies owned 8 9 10th gen fighters!

and even 2050s like Today PAKISTANI FAN BOYZ remain .. "WE HAVE BETTER PILOTS"

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## Windjammer

prabhakar said:


> didn't u said before that PAF evaluated both the jets and reject both of them by implying that both are not good quality wise ?  And fatman told you that actually PAF is not competent enough to handle high end tech :lol



Get a stock of your self dude, did IAF rejected the EFT, F/A18 and others because they were of poor quality. !! 
Likewise, the PAF didn't find the two aircraft meeting it's own specific operational requirements. 

I guess PAF is just lucky that it has managed to fly the first of the so called electric fighters for the last three decades.


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## SBD-3

jackhammer2 said:


> If you like to go in a war after reading reports on internet and beleiving them then be my guest but if you would like to see the reality then in the present world of BVR and stealth the winner is that pilot who detects his enemy first and for that you need better fighter not pilot.


Sorry to say, i dont read internet reports. These are from JDW and costs me around 1000 USD annually....If you can find this on internet, please help me save this money


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## prabhakar

Windjammer said:


> Get a stock of your self dude, did IAF rejected the EFT, F/A18 and others because they were of poor quality. !!
> Likewise, the PAF didn't find the two aircraft meeting it's own specific operational requirements.
> 
> I guess PAF is just lucky that it has managed to fly the first of the so called electric fighters for the last three decades.



Of course .. they were rejected on the basis of 643 evaluation parameters set by IAF..

And that is very interesting to know what are the operational parameters were not meted by this jets .. i guess one of them is their high tech and second one is their affordability.

 And jf-17 meeting the PAF parameters  there is something called compromise ... get yourself well rehearsed with that word

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## Tshering22

hasnain0099 said:


> Aside from infrastructure, the key problem with European aircrafts is that they are in limited operation. For example to date, the only operators of rafale are French Air and Naval Force. This situation is a bit tricky in a way that french are not only known for selling expensive but being among the few customers means that effectively you have to fund the development of the program. French can always call upon Indians to say, "hey, we have so and so products to offer you for an upgrade but Indians will effectively be funding development costs, making program more expensive through its life cycle.



Hardly. Typhoon if indeed sustainable, should have stabilized by now with more than 6 countries having it in their arsenal. Even now with 2 tranches already complete and despite high orders from member countries, the unit cost for both the aircraft and its operations are still impossibly high. It is a superb fighter no doubt, but it has some key points that won't suit the IAF much. 

Rafale OTOH being in limited operations means we being the launch international customers, have some benefits and say (Especially with such a massive order). Dassault has had a historical presence in India and this definitely has a lot of strategic decision behind it than simply technical.

French jets are expensive but they come with that much political independence. I'd say it is money well spent.

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## SBD-3

Tshering22 said:


> Hardly. Typhoon if indeed sustainable, should have stabilized by now with more than 6 countries having it in their arsenal. Even now with 2 tranches already complete and despite high orders from member countries, the unit cost for both the aircraft and its operations are still impossibly high. It is a superb fighter no doubt, but it has some key points that won't suit the IAF much.
> 
> *Rafale OTOH being in limited operations means we being the launch international customers, have some benefits and say (Especially with such a massive order).* Dassault has had a historical presence in India and this definitely has a lot of strategic decision behind it than simply technical.
> 
> French jets are expensive but they come with that much political independence. I'd say it is money well spent.


Then again my question of tendered price comes in....the argument should have been reflected over there


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## unicorn

Stealth said:


> Before go for any plan PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES Heads first learn how to RUN THE ORGANIZATION and HOW TO MAKE THE POLICY this Military put his ownd hand in this WOT... without using BRAIN! frankly speaking today after 10 years lost 80B $$$$ in which you can buy 100 EF and RAfale....
> 
> this Military is totally USELESS Frankly speaking.... ZERO % performance of this armed forces from last 10 years... **** the training training n damn training excuses...
> 
> i said this 3 years back..... India will go for ANY FIGHTER and at that time PAKISTAN MILITARY Just "ham ye kardengay ham woh kardeengay khali batain *****gay bas" kareengay kuch nahi...
> 
> We don't know how much our Army is corrupt how these generals bridgadiers Wing Commanders Naval heads owned milion billion of prices homes house and 20 30 mercedes n BMWz in their house from where they get money... infact after 4 5 years on PDF i just learned only 1 thing... After 1990... the reaction.. policy... and play style of Pakistan Forces .... WE DONT NEED ENEMY frankly speaking we have most worst enemy in our own house who RULE the state who allow corrupt generals and after wheneverwant to save their ***** call corrupt politicians...
> 
> MARK MY WORD
> 
> THIS JF17 cheap and old techie 3.5 gen plane OUR AIRFORCES WILL USE TILL 2050! @ that time ... India and all our enemies owned 8 9 10th gen fighters!
> 
> and even 2050s like Today PAKISTANI FAN BOYZ remain .. "WE HAVE BETTER PILOTS"



What people don't understand here is that JF-17 is not extra thing added to PAF. It is an up gradation of an old fighters. 

In reality Pakistan forces are seriously loosing the race against Indian rapid Expansion of military. The difference between us and India now is not about military anymore. It is never the incompetence of the Pakistan forces.It is simply all about Economy. We need to work on our economy big time if we want to survive.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Congrats India for these birds. Pak should wait 3 or 4 years . Multiple projects can create problem. Just concentrate on JF17 and future blocks. No need to go for J10(Start saving money for some J2x and there is high Possibility Our Economy will back on track as it was in 2005). Just wait for 3 or 4 years. Then go straight with J2x PROGRAM B/W 2016- 2018.
Straight solution is Be Peaceful with India in these 4 years( Even if India shows Aggression in these years)., 
Remain Cool as Misbah.

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## Donatello

Luftwaffe said:


> Thailand-Hungry-S.Africa can operate Gripens while PAF has excuses. PAF has set its directions F-16s/JF-17s and if money is available FC-20s. But it is time PAF look for AESA option for the F-16 Fleet atleast. And FC-20 if ever lands in should come by default with AESA.
> 
> PAF never openly rejects unlike hindustan. PAF backed down due to higher price tag and technology it couldn't cope with, I would still say the current direction is all PAF is heading into no other platform until next 10 Years.
> 
> Has anyone calculated the cost of 18 F-16s at $3.1B including all weapons systems and setup etc i would recommend others to calculate the life time cost of these 18 F-16s these are not cheap thus to F-16 procurement for PAF is equally costly. IF PAF can windup all troubles with US are order to level the figure of 100 F-16s with AESA it would be cost effective solution from the point of view of F-16s.
> 
> *At the end of day thankyou ppp/pml-n-q you fkup economy you suffer.*




You miss quoted there, ppp/pml-n-q-f fk up economy, but they *DON'T* suffer......we do.


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## Windjammer

prabhakar said:


> Of course .. they were rejected on the basis of 643 evaluation parameters set by IAF..
> 
> And that is very interesting to know what are the operational parameters were not meted by this jets .. i guess one of them is their high tech and second one is their affordability.


You can be sure as hell, one of the parameter by the IAF was no confidence in single engine jets, hence you never see the likes of MiG-21s/27s, Mirage-2000 or even the Tejas for republic day fly past. 


> And jf-17 meeting the PAF parameters  there is something called compromise ... get yourself well rehearsed with that word


 Is that why you are still perusing the several decades old LCA dream, alas, poor innovations can not be nurtured.

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## aakash_2410

unicorn said:


> What people don't understand here is that JF-17 is not extra thing added to PAF. It is an up gradation of an old fighters.
> 
> In reality Pakistan forces are seriously loosing the race against Indian rapid Expansion of military. The difference between us and India now is not about military anymore. It is never the incompetence of the Pakistan forces.It is simply all about Economy. We need to work on our economy big time if *we want to survive*.


 
Survive? As if we are gonna eat you people? 

But I do agree with you. The economy development is the key. Just look at North/South Korea. North concentrated on military might and made a powerful army and South concentrated on economy so they have a strong economy AND highly modernized and more powerful military.

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## KRAIT

Windjammer said:


> You can be sure as hell, one of the parameter by the IAF was no confidence in single engine jets, hence you never see the likes of MiG-21s/27s, Mirage-2000 or even the Tejas for republic day fly past.  Is that why you are still perusing the several decades old LCA dream, alas, poor innovations can not be nurtured.



Come on yaar, you are a senior member and again you are dragging old LCA, poor innovations etc. LCA dream is at fruition. Kindly read more about it. 

Cheers

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## K-Xeroid

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Congrats India for these birds. Pak should wait 3 or 4 years . Multiple projects can create problem. Just concentrate on JF17 and future blocks. No need to go for J10(Start saving money for some J2x and there is high Possibility Our Economy will back on track as it was in 2005). Just wait for 3 or 4 years. Then go straight with J2x PROGRAM B/W 2016- 2018.*
> Straight solution is Be Peaceful with India in these 4 years( Even if India shows Aggression in these years).,
> Remain Cool as Misbah.*


The bold part and optimistic approach, I like that .. Well! Even skills need Better equipments against better technology.. But As far I've Met with personalities related Think tank of P.A.F .. I believe in their planning approach,They will find the way while considering our limited economy. as far as economy is concerned its on civilians to think about their future and support telented personalities for top position instead of depending on emotions. We have to keep focus on Jf-17 blk 2 & 3..
about LCA ,it don't deserve to be considered in making our air defense policey.. Better to focus on real war machines.

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## KRAIT

Man-machine interface have become prominent more than ever. So even if aircraft is highly advanced, the pilot has to be at par to handle it and use the aircraft's capability efficiently. PAF should focus on major upgradation in existing and future aircrafts.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Please read the thread title and post accordingly.

This is not a thread ON THE RAFALE (so no videos or images glorifying the Rafale - leave that for the ID threads).*


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## gubbi

On topic: an excellent choice for IAF. I was always of the opinion that either F-18SH or the Rafale would win. Sorry EFT fanbois , IAF requirements didnt require that fine aircraft.

Basically as was previously mentioned, IAF needed a deep strike aircraft to replace the aging MiG27s and Jaguars. What other choices are there except for F-18SH and Rafale as excellent strike platforms? IAF has Su-30MKIs and MiG-29s for air-superiority role. IAF will be buying the PAK-Fa and FGFA for future air-dominance requirements. EFT is an out and out air-superiority fighter. Period. 

Rafale, like F-18SH, was developed with emphasis on strike capabilities along with multirole capabilities. And hence Rafale it is. 

ps: Oh btw, it would be the current F3 production standard equipped with AESA radars.

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## pkd

BBC News - India picks French jet over Eurofighter in $10bn deal

French firm Dassault has emerged as the lowest bidder for a $10bn (£6.3bn) contract to supply India jet fighters.

Dassault Aviation will now enter final negotiations before signing the deal that will supply India's air force with 126 Rafale aircraft.

Correspondents say this is one of the world's biggest defence deals and is a major setback for rival bidder, the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal to supply jets to Japan.

Shares in Dassault Aviation rocketed more than 20% as the latest news broke.

'Purely cost'
Officials at the British High Commission in Delhi said they were disappointed with the decision and would now study the details.

They added: "It was expressly said this was about the cost of the contract, not a reflection on the health of bilateral relations between India and the countries."

The officials said they "genuinely believed the [Eurofighter] Typhoon offered the best capability now and in the future".

They also said it was "not beyond imagination" that India might decide the Rafale was not the right option as it continued the process.

BBC defence and diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says the Indian air force is going through an unprecedented period of modernisation; a response in part to China's developing air power.

Four other bidders had dropped out in the lengthy Indian selection process.

He says various reasons were in play in the Indian decision, including diversifying from Russian hardware and contractual problems with other bidders.

French Minister of State for Foreign Trade Pierre Lellouche welcomed the deal, the first foreign order for the Rafale multi-role jet.

He said: "This is good news and France needs good news right now... It is good news for our aerospace industry and for our defence industry."

Mr Lellouche also complained that "political pressure applied by our competitors does not make things very easy".

James Hardy, Asia Pacific specialist at IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, said this was a "big loss for Eurofighter".

"The Typhoon was widely tipped to be the favourite and had major political support from the big beasts of the Eurofighter nations. Both Germany and the UK invested a lot of time in pushing the Typhoon, so this will hurt."

Indian Defence Minister AK Antony had earlier cautioned that this remained a "long process" and that no deal would be signed before the end of March.

One Indian defence ministry source confirmed to Reuters that the Rafale had been "much cheaper unit-wise", adding: "Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French."

The Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of European aerospace giant EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

Cassidian, the defence and security division of EADS, said it was disappointed with the decision.

It said it believed it had offered "the most modern combat aircraft available".

India is the biggest arms importer among emerging nations.


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## KRAIT

If Rafale C with meteor is delivered, then pakistan has to look for new AMRAAM and powerful radar (better than multimode pulse doppler) in their aircraft. Any info about it. ?


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## farhan_9909

scrap j-10B deal
invest that money into block III and make it able to carry a ws-10A/B size engine and AESA.it will be no less than J-10B

and the rest of money into the single engine stealth fighter(as i heard that PAF officials has visited china and they have shown them a model of single engine stealth fighter)

its better to buy even J-11B than J-10B

i dnt knw why PAF is all after a fighter a little better than JFT II or comparable to JFT III(2016) and J-10B delivery by 2015.
waht is the difference than

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## Windjammer

KRAIT said:


> Come on yaar, you are a senior member and again you are dragging old LCA, poor innovations etc. LCA dream is at fruition. Kindly read more about it.
> 
> Cheers



Not dragging anything dear, your is about to bear fruition, while in the JF-17, we have already achieved our dream, hence it's not a compromise......i was just pointing that out.

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## deckingraj

Windjammer said:


> Not dragging anything dear, your is about to bear fruition, while in the JF-17, we have already achieved our dream, hence it's not a compromise......i was just pointing that out.



So are you saying had PAF kitty full with $$$ they would have still gone for JF-17??? Let's talk logical here....Cost and fear of sanctions are for sure important reasons behind JF-17....So compromise is correct word to use in that context....Obviously with limitations in hand JF-17 was the answer that PAF came out with...Jf-17 will turn out to be a good platform but obviously it will take time...Anyhow all this hardly matters....bcoz peace is the way to go!!!

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## Johny D

Only one option, ramp up your air defence!


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## Don Jaguar

Their DRDO is making a gadget almost every week, and now this rafale!!!  

I have two options "stealth hypersonic cruise missiles with more and more nukes" 

OR

Hydrogen bomb with a good bomber jet.

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## Peaceful Civilian

farhan_9909 said:


> scrap j-10B deal
> invest that money into block III and make it able to carry a ws-10A/B size engine and AESA.it will be no less than J-10B
> 
> and the rest of money into the single engine stealth fighter(as i heard that PAF officials has visited china and they have shown them a model of single engine stealth fighter)
> 
> its better to buy even J-11B than J-10B
> 
> i dnt knw why PAF is all after a fighter a little better than JFT II or comparable to JFT III(2016) and J-10B delivery by 2015.
> waht is the difference than



No doubt J10B is the world class fighter. But why go for same multirole fighter aircraft projects?? India has chosen Rafale because they already have superiority fighter i.e Mig29. So there is no reason to buy Eurofighter unless they have no air superiority fighter.
*J10 and JF17 are both multirole fighter aircraft*. J10 has some + speed than JF17. But. Speed is not only decider factor.
JF17 Block2/3 is understandable to put same stuff as in J10B. i.e AESA radar....

But i said no need for J10 as they are almost for same role(multirole fighter aircraft).

In current scenario i see Reason to pursue J10b is if we get Ready available fighters.


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## Chanakyaa

The "Option_s_" is Not Correct Word.
Now the ONLY "OPTION" is China.

Perhaps, Pray the GoP Wakes up before situation gets promoted to : The "Lost 3 Decades"

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## Icarus

Rafale is one mean bird. Our only possible (effective) counter-measure will be our:

1)AWACs
2)AESA radar equipped planes.

The acquisition of a state of the art Air Defence system is now not an option but a necessity. 

I would recommend 2 squadrons(about 40 aircraft) of Air-superiority fighters dedicated to the western border but at the moment our economic condition cannot allow such an acquisition.

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## KRAIT

Don Jaguar said:


> Their DRDO is making a gadget almost every week, and now this rafale!!!
> 
> I have two options "stealth hypersonic cruise missiles with more and more nukes"
> 
> OR
> 
> Hydrogen bomb with a good bomber jet.


Not a good option at this time. Developing Hypersonic CM will be very costly. I think Pakistan should work/buy advance SAMs and stress on AWACs. Nukes/ hydrogen bomb are not a good option in today's conflict where fight won't long more than few weeks between countries like us.


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## Icarus

Don Jaguar said:


> Their DRDO is making a gadget almost every week, and now this rafale!!!
> 
> I have two options "stealth hypersonic cruise missiles with more and more nukes"
> 
> OR
> 
> Hydrogen bomb with a good bomber jet.



A pre-cursor to nuclear holocaust ?


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## KRAIT

Kakgeta said:


> Rafale is one mean bird. Our only possible (effective) counter-measure will be our:
> 
> 1)AWACs
> 2)AESA radar equipped planes.
> 
> The acquisition of a state of the art Air Defence system is now not an option but a necessity.
> 
> I would recommend 2 squadrons(about 40 aircraft) of Air-superiority fighters dedicated to the western border but at the moment our economic condition cannot allow such an acquisition.


You completely read my mind. Advance AWACS, SAMs and J-10B (fast induction).

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## rcrmj

i missed a lot about MMRCA, so IAF finally chose Dassault, as i have guessed, EF is too much fuss to deal with....but Dassault all will come with one package (france)

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## Don Jaguar

Kakgeta said:


> A pre-cursor to nuclear holocaust ?



If we will not make these things then nuclear holocaust will be on our side only.

---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 PM ----------




jackyy said:


> why not an space shuttle?



Off topic.


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## Icarus

Don Jaguar said:


> If we will not make these things then nuclear holocaust will be on our side only.




We already have missiles capable of reaching every corner of India. Until things are looking up for our economy. I believe we should set our priorities straight, economic revival first, then armament.

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## Stealth

I met with **** office member few days back. He told me that this year ... PAKISTAN ARMED forces dont have any budget anything simply...

He also told me that gripen Rafale was rejected because of PRICE not for "Requirements". He also said, even they don't have complete funds of SAAB AWACS. I asked him how PAF will go for advance fighter. He said we don't know how... we are loosing @ every VS game with our enemy. In fact this WOT the policy makers especially from mid-90s PAF failed to decide what they actually need and which kind of defence they need after 10 to 15 years and today PAF and full Armed forces are suffering badly this nuclear weapons will NO MORE deterrence after 2015's you cant use nuclear @ every surgical strike nor in any limited War.

I remember words of some Off**** "Pakistan Military not fight with Indian Military (not more then 24 - 48 hours) with full forces and equipment and why because today's battle much dependent on military tech especially Airforce and our Air and ground forces using 80s tech and few 90s tech... I don't know how much actually he was right but if i see today's situation after Mehran Attack, GHQ attack, OBL raid, Lahore training center and 10000 of events .. i feel that he was 101% right.

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## jackyy

Stealth said:


> I met with **** office member few days back. He told me that this year ... PAKISTAN ARMED forces dont have any budget anything simply...
> 
> He also told me that gripen Rafale was rejected because of PRICE not for "Requirements". He also said, even they don't have complete funds of SAAB AWACS. I asked him how PAF will go for advance fighter. He said we don't know how... we are loosing @ every VS game with our enemy. In fact this WOT the policy makers especially from mid-90s PAF failed to decide what they actually need and which kind of defence they need after 10 to 15 years and today PAF and full Armed forces are suffering badly this nuclear is not deterrence.



obviously it was money factor and its correct that nuclear weapons are not an solution


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## Don Jaguar

Kakgeta said:


> We already have missiles capable of reaching every corner of India. Until things are looking up for our economy. I believe we should set our priorities straight,



And they have anti ballistic missiles to shoot them.



Kakgeta said:


> economic revival first, then armament.



Agreed with this part.


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## Big Boss

Aamir Hussain said:


> The Indian French Connection means:
> 
> 1. The french subs are out of the equation
> 2. The JFT avionics are also gone for good.
> 3. Reliance on:
> a. JFT and enhnced/improved version with combo of Chinese and Italian avionics
> b. J-10 Becomes more attaractive buy. Modified J10B for PAF is now the only econimcally viable option, given the economy
> c. Deep strike will be with F-16's. More will be bought or transferred. This political problem will be sorted out with gains on both side and a more even keel relationship. The Saudi connection will ensure that.
> 
> With current numbers as a baseline figure, roughly 80 odd F-16, 150+ JFT, and 60 odd J-10 will form the fighter force of roughly 300 plane force. A force equipped with BVR accross the board. 200 of these would be air refuelable (Atleast). The hunt for advanced radars will gian momentum to equip an all BVR force.
> 
> I suspect PAF will now go for enhnaced number of high altitude missile batteries to ensure point defence of airbases and stratlocs.
> 
> We need to understand that in case of a limited scale, short duration war (The IBG's of the Cold Start are designed to inflict, short, quick thrusts to ensure limited tactical gians over atleast eight sectors), PAF would only need to defend its airspace and ensure CAS of both its Navy and Army.
> 
> PA is already equipped with dispropotionately high number of ATGW's to blunt an armoured thrust. They would now need to be equipped with enhanced number of Manpads and mobile AAA assets.
> 
> *In all its wars with India, PAF was outnumbered. In 65' it had parity in terms of quality. This qualatative edge was let go in 71'. Since than, in best of times, we have never been able to match the numbers and the increased quality of a/c being bought by India. Remember the late eighties, 200 Jaguars, and 50 Mirage 2000? While we stuck with 40 F-16 alongwith fair weather mirages and F-6's.
> 
> This is nothing new. The game is to enhance our misisle cover, both high and med altitude and increase the manpads.*




1. Think tankji you are forgetting that all of these wars you have mentioned India have to divert its forces to 3 fronts west pakistan, east pakistan and china now we have only 2 fronts to take care of.

2. With the quality of Indian air defense through purchase and made in India systems deep strike by F-16 as you have mentioned is not possible.

3. India will further make it thinner for pakistan by scattering your assets along your coastline through the use of its multiple aircraft carrier + Su 30 MKIs.

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## Icarus

Don Jaguar said:


> And they have anti ballistic missiles to shoot them.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed with this part.





That's why we have ALCMs like Ra'ad, It's terrain hugging, impossible to shoot down. Neutralize defences then progress further. However, I must stress that Nuclear Warfare in the Sub-Continent is highly if not completely unlikely. Weather patterns and the proximity of nuclear armed states ensure that nuclear weapons effect people other than your intended targets. And those people have plenty of bite in them too.


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## farhan_9909

Peaceful Civlian said:


> No doubt J10B is the world class fighter. But why go for same multirole fighter aircraft projects?? India has chosen Rafale because they already have superiority fighter i.e Mig29. So there is no reason to buy Eurofighter unless they have no air superiority fighter.
> *J10 and JF17 are both multirole fighter aircraft*. J10 has some + speed than JF17. But. Speed is not only decider factor.
> JF17 Block2/3 is understandable to put same stuff as in J10B. i.e AESA radar....
> 
> But i said no need for J10 as they are almost for same role(multirole fighter aircraft).
> 
> In current scenario i see Reason to pursue J10b is if we get Ready available fighters.



you are right
j-10B cost us 53millions
JFT IIIvs J-10B
it has a 6ton payload(present JFT 4600kg in block III atleast expect 6ton or 5 ton)
speed nt a issue at all though with block III this gap will be filled

both has same weapons package as well as both will have a AESA

its better nt to buy a 3rd multirole fighter(after f-16 and JFTI ,II,III)

and invest that money into a dedicated air superiority fighter lets say J-11BS from china only 2 squarden as a stop gap and go for a stealth project

otherwise it will be too late
As IAF plans are massive.


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## Stealth

[/COLOR]


Big Boss said:


> 1. Think tankji you are forgetting that all of these wars you have mentioned India have to divert its forces to 3 fronts west pakistan, east pakistan and china now we have only 2 fronts to take care of.
> 
> 2. With the quality of Indian air defense through purchase and made in India systems deep strike by F-16 as you have mentioned is not possible.
> 
> 3. India will further make it thinner for pakistan by scattering your assets along your coastline through the use of its multiple aircraft carrier + Su 30 MKIs.



Might be you are right @ every point but i never ever agreed on your Aircraft carrier story.. even i never feel US aircraft carrier is problem for Pakistan. Pakistan have enough capability to destroy carrier you can't stop multiple nuclear or cruse missile strike over the AC. Nor even US naval command capable to stop massive missile strike against the carrier its totally huge wastage of money ...


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## Big Boss

*My 2 cents:*

1. Now, pakistan have become more dependent on US of A and china.

2. USA can hard bargain and the situation in Afghanistan will also have an effect as pakistan looses its bargaining power. 

3. Then there is a possibility of a kill switch in F-16 from USA.

India will go for about 200 Rafale as Tejas will take time in maturing.


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## Last Hope

It would eventually depend on the date of delivery. Between 2014-2016, PAF would have operational squadrons J-10B and JF-17 Block II. Likely to be in Mianwali. With a good network of SAM batteries, and radar on the west, the danger gets reduced. And after 2016, PAF is likely to have a 5th Generation fighter in it's inventory, developed by PAC and CAC. _(PS. This was supposed to be 'JF-17 Block III' but now would come out with a new name/)_

With BVR technology and likely AESA on J-10Bs, the threat is under control for PAF. Not to forget the 5th Squadron on the South Eastern border _(Jacobabad)_ who are holding the Block 52s and AMRAAMs on the ADA. Adding these with the MLU-ed F-16s, the threat can be engaged before J-10Bs or JF-17 Block IIs.

Edit: Always winning the edge in training/capability, PAF pilots are sharp and sound to counter any threat. PAF's experience would be greater than IAF's _(in flying Rafale)_. History has proven itself, as Aamir Hussain already highlighted. Outnumbered and engaging better technology that what we had, still enabled us to win the edge in air warfare.


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## Big Boss

Stealth said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Might be you are right @ every point but i never ever agreed on your Aircraft carrier story.. even i never feel US aircraft carrier is problem for Pakistan. Pakistan have enough capability to destroy carrier you can't stop multiple nuclear or cruse missile strike over the AC. Nor even US naval command capable to stop massive missile strike against the carrier its totally huge wastage of money ...



Friend, you have not understand my point, just read it again.

I am not saying that we will destroy your cities or attack you or Aircraf carrier is capable of doing that (It can do it BTW), what I have said is that aircraft carrier will make add to your *wastage and thinner ur defense* because of limited number of aircrafts.

Suppose you deploy 50 aircrafts to secure your coastline from aircraft carrier + few SU30MKI then obviously its a wastage and make ur defence thinner.


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## Tiger Awan

Last Hope said:


> And after 2016, PAF is likely to have a 5th Generation fighter in it's inventory, developed by PAC and CAC. _(PS. This was supposed to be 'JF-17 Block III' but now would come out with a new name/)_


_

then you woke up_

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## Don Jaguar

Kakgeta said:


> That's why we have ALCMs like Ra'ad, It's terrain hugging, impossible to shoot down. Neutralize defences then progress further. However, I must stress that Nuclear Warfare in the Sub-Continent is highly if not completely unlikely. Weather patterns and the proximity of nuclear armed states ensure that nuclear weapons effect people other than your intended targets. And those people have plenty of bite in them too.



And to launch Ra'ad we need a jet plus its range is only 350 KM and the jet we will use to launch this missile will have to face Su-30MKI and rafale.

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## Yeti

Pakistan does indeed have cruise missiles but do not forget we have the Israeli Spyder missile which can hit cruise missiles

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## Storm Force

LAST HOPE.

nice optimistc post 

IAF has just made the prefect choice. A TRUE MULTI ROLE FIGHTER with the most advanced jammers and spectra EW suite in the world bar F22.

rafale for india will be tranche 3 and will include RBE2 aesa radar. One generation ahead of the USA APG79...

Rafale is a COMBAT PROVEN leading MMRCA as proven LIBYA & afghanistan. campaigns

F16 TYPHOON & TORNADOS have all played 2nd fiddle to the highly advanced mature fighter.

PAFS answer 

Should be 

F16/60 

fc20 (if you trust tech VERSIS french tech) 

AND IN LARGE NOS IE 120+


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## jbond197

Come on.. Why all are all getting finicky all of a sudden? India had to chose one of the Aircraft any way and this process was going on for several years. I am sure planners in Pakistan would have thought during this time about how to neutralize the threat. There is no reason for any body to get charged up about this deal. 

Also, must I say in the end that the chances of India using these birds against Pakistan is very minimal/bleak/close to negative.


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## farhan_9909

I repeat again there is no other option than going for a Air superiority fighter

and the only available option is j-11B.

we can delay the j-10B program and get 2 squarden of j-11B by 2014-15
than we might think of getting the J-10B after 2015 as may be economy is getting better or in better position that time as this govt is already on run within months


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## jackyy

so rafales for nuclear command
rafales for IAF
rafales for indian navy too.

this tender is more than 20 billion dollars

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## farhan_9909

the difference is increasing really fast

+200 FGFA
280MKI
126 rafale
80 JSF(or naval Rafale)
60 mig
50 mirage

with only
77 F-16
150-200 JFT
and 50-60 J-10B(only with AESA)

PAF should have gone for a air superiority fighter by 90 lets say f-15


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## Safriz

Storm Force said:


> absolute STATE OF THE ART


 
the news isnt confirmed yet...its not an statement by the minister of defence but by some random official...
the report also says that no financial deals have been signed and will only be signed...if at all....in the next fiscal year..
so no need to panic...indians ace at delaying matters for years...
PAF will have years to plan and compensate before the Rafale is finally flying in tricolour.


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## Last Hope

Storm Force said:


> LAST HOPE.
> 
> nice optimistc post
> 
> IAF has just made the prefect choice. A TRUE MULTI ROLE FIGHTER with the most *advanced jammers and spectra EW suite* in the world bar F22.
> 
> rafale for india will be tranche 3 and will include RBE2 aesa radar. One generation ahead of the USA APG79...
> 
> Rafale is a COMBAT PROVEN leading MMRCA as proven LIBYA & afghanistan. campaigns
> 
> F16 TYPHOON & TORNADOS have all played 2nd fiddle to the highly advanced mature fighter.
> 
> PAFS answer
> 
> Should be
> 
> F16/60
> 
> fc20 (if you trust tech VERSIS french tech)
> 
> AND IN LARGE NOS IE 120+



Nothing is absolute perfect. Manpads can take it down, or a well-experienced pilot. In the 71 war, and in Arab-Israel war, the radars were jammed and radio was hacked. I recommend you to read two articles.

Cheapest kill.


> The morning of 7th of December was quite hazy, particularly at lower altitudes where the dust of Punjab plains mingled with the moist, cold air, giving the sky a murky appearance. While the PAF was conserving its air effort in the early stages of war, IAF&#8217;s intensity of air operations was building up at a fast pace.
> 
> Flg Off Man Mohan Singh was ferrying a Gnat from Halwara, to beef up a detachment of No 2 Squadron at Amritsar where these aircraft were deployed to perform air defence duties. As Mohan was nearing home, the controller at Amritsar Radar asked him to delay his landing while a pair of Su-7s took off. After holding off for a few minutes, Mohan resumed a northerly heading for the Base.
> 
> Sqn Ldr Farooq Haider, a veteran of the &#8217;65 War, was sitting as the duty controller in No 403 Radar Squadron which was located in the outskirts of Lahore. Watching the radar scope intently, he had picked up a blip as it approached Tarn Taran, south of Amritsar. With the adversary nearing its home Base, Farooq had to act fast. He commenced the interception with steady instructions on the radio.
> 
> &#8220;Your target now over Tarn Taran, heading 360; do not acknowledge.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;Target 20 (degrees) right, five (miles), turn hard left 360, do not climb; do not acknowledge.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;Target 12 o&#8217;clock, two (miles), go full bore; do not acknowledge.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;Okay, target is one mile ahead &#8230;&#8221;
> 
> The IAF had been expecting PAF fighters to sneak in below radar cover. Thus, to be doubly sure about any undetected intruders, the IAF used a capability that it was well equipped for &#8211; eavesdropping into pilot-controller conversation. Listening in to what was going on, the IAF controller was completely dumbfounded at the development, for he had not yet picked up any blip on his scope. All of a sudden, he frantically shouted on the radio to announce the presence of interceptors in the Gnat&#8217;s rear quarters! It was no surprise, therefore, that the controller&#8217;s warning to Mohan sounded eerie, as if a spectre was being reported. With the interceptors&#8217; distance rapidly reducing and shooting down of the Gnat almost a certainty, the controller gave a panic &#8216;break&#8217; call. Mohan reacted as any fighter pilot would have done in that situation. He yanked back on the control column and threw in a very tight turn to shake off his pursuers.
> 
> Farooq noticed that the blip had disappeared from the radar screen shortly after manoeuvring had commenced. Normally, he would have enquired about the fate of the target from the interceptor pilots within moments of the shooting. This time, however, he had to be discrete. &#8220;Maintain radio silence and recover at low altitude,&#8221; he called out. Meanwhile, Farooq and his fellow controllers wondered if the vanished blip meant that the aircraft had landed at its Base?
> 
> India&#8217;s Official History of Indo-Pak War - 1971, published thirty years later, covers the air operations with a diary of action which includes important events like air raids, aerial victories and losses on both sides. A keen reader would notice acknowledgement of the loss of a Gnat on 7th December 1971 in which, &#8220;the pilot tried to take evasive action when warned of Pak aircraft in the vicinity. He lost control and crashed.&#8221;[8] The only inaccuracy with the account is that Pakistani aircraft were nowhere near!
> 
> Standing CAPs were a rare commodity due to excessive demands on PAF&#8217;s limited assets. Farooq had, therefore, reacted to the emergent situation in a most ingenuous way. He impulsively decided to fake an interception in the knowledge that his calls would be monitored. The thrill of playing a prank was better than getting frustrated at the sight of an enemy blip pacing away unscathed. In the event, Farooq&#8217;s trick resulted in a bargain of great value, which can be gleaned from the amazing fact that not a gallon of fuel was expended, nor was a single bullet fired. Arguably, it stands as the cheapest kill of air warfare.



As for Arab-Israel war:


> Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a grueling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF C-130, they were whisked off to Damascus by road. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a cease-fire; it was therefore decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria, it was another story.
> 
> The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 Squadron, Alpha Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr near Damascus.
> 
> Syria had not agreed to a cease-fire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation, using the call sign &#8216;Shahbaz,&#8217; was formidable in size &#8211; all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few &#8216;Khalsas[1]&#8217; for the job!
> 
> After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the airshafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the coffee session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to Base &#8211; this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 20,000 ft. The limited fuel of their early model MiG-21F permitted just a 30-minute sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys were approaching from the southerly direction ie, Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the &#8216;takka tak[2]&#8217; at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?
> 
> Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within moments, the second Mirage filled his gunsight. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K-13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn&#8217;t as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter &#8216;J&#8217; in Mirage-IIICJ stood for &#8216;Jewish,&#8217; it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of sonic bangs over Damascus. (Word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused!) His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.
> 
> As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.
> 
> The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, the Syrians explained!
> 
> Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz[3] of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air Base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (Flt Lt Saleem Metla, also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.
> 
> The success of Shahbaz over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks any one could have got the kill had he been &#8216;Shahbaz-8&#8217; on that fateful day. The Syrian Government awarded the Wisam al-Shuja'a to all the formation members. Additionally, Sattar and Arif were admitted as &#8216;knights&#8217; (al-faris) in the coveted Wisam al-Istehqaq al-Suriya, one of the country&#8217;s highest awards for honourable and devoted service. The Government of Pakistan awarded Sattar and Arif with a Sitara-i-Jur&#8217;at as well. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF&#8217;s elite Combat Commanders&#8217; School and the premier PAF Base, Rafiqui. Many a fighter pilot trained by Sattar would swear by his audaciousness in the air. Even today, crew room lore persists that fighter pilots don&#8217;t come any bolder!



Read about Saif-ul-Azam, a PAF pilot who was knighted as 'Sword of Hussein' in the first Arab-Israel battle. 
Jammers and radio hacking has got a limit, and PAF has already got experience in older wars to dodge them.


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## prabhakar

safriz said:


> the news isnt confirmed yet...its not an statement by the minister of defence but by some random official...
> the report also says that no financial deals have been signed and will only be signed...if at all....in the next fiscal year..
> so no need to panic...indians ace at delaying matters for years...
> PAF will have years to plan and compensate before the Rafale is finally flying in tricolour.



Letter of Intent has been sent. Deal will take another 6 months to get finalized. There was a famous story of a Hare and a tortoise . do read it.

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## Storm Force

pafs operational budget to OPERATE AND FLY a heavey twin engined fighter does not exist.

I would imagine to maintain fly and equip one F15 J11 OR TYPHOON WOULD COST 4 TO 5 X AS MUCH AS A thunder JF17.

This is the reason why PAF doctrine is ALL single engined fighters. 

At this moment in time i think IAF ouspends PAF by $5 or $6 to $1... ulimately this FACT is beginning to TELL BIG TIME


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## prabhakar

@Last hope...dude it's 2012


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## Safriz

prabhakar said:


> Letter of Intent has been sent. Deal will take another 6 months to get finalized. There was a famous story of a Hare and a tortoise . do read it.


 
exactly..
the hare is india and turtle is pakistan.


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## jbond197

By competing with India, Pakistan is going to harm itself more "Economically". It's high time common people realize this thing. But if you are planning to invade India on the same lines as few Bangladeshis thinks on this very forum then its a different story.

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## prabhakar

safriz said:


> exactly..
> the hare is india and turtle is pakistan.



and you still betting on the indian slow process...

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## Nirvana

safriz said:


> the news isnt confirmed yet...its not an statement by the minister of defence but by some random official...
> the report also says that no financial deals have been signed and will only be signed...if at all....in the next fiscal year..
> so no need to panic...indians ace at delaying matters for years...
> PAF will have years to plan and compensate before the Rafale is finally flying in tricolour.



Oh you are the same guy who said MMRCA will take another 20 year's or so !! This news is Confirmed by govt sources and well as Dassault , Try google for same.But there will be Negotiations now after which Deal will be signed and the next fiscal year is there year itself , Our budget will be out by march

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## Storm Force

SAFRIZ.

Rafale contract for indian mmrca is all over european news channels.

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## livingdead

^^^Its on BBC already.
BBC News - India picks French jet over Eurofighter in $10bn deal


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## livingdead

safriz said:


> its been in the news for over 4 years now..
> being in the news means nothing when it comes to indian MMRCA.


Well this news(which we are discussing in the thread) is more specific than being in news. Try clicking on the link, it is from bbc, wont hurt you.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

options are to proceed as scheduled....retire old, induct new and newer block Thunders; maintain current and new(er) F-16 fleet. Keep options open for Chinese 4/4.5 gen aircrafts

once the country has a government (one that functions) and the economic outlook improves, we can analyze other high tech options --- as times are a-changing.


for now PAF has full capability to defend our airspace......i suspect that it will still take some time for indian livery and decals and official handover/ induction. They tend to be a bit on the slow side with these things. But anyhow, will be interesting to see PAF's jawab, to ensure regional peace and balance.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------

me personally, i'm surprised they wont opt for the Eurofighters. But it may be better for us....not to say that the Rafale is not a formidable aircraft and will prove to be a good challenge for our fighters ---fighters being the gun and the well-drilled man behind the gun.

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## Storm Force

Abu wat is the regional balance TODAY

50-50
70-30
80-20

i WOULD SUGGEST IAF is at least twice the firepower of PAF and will grow to 3-1 in years to come

INDIA QUALITY ADVANTAGE IS GETTING TOO BIG.

Other than Typhoon nothing comes close to rafale FOR MODERN TECHNOLOGY


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## Abingdonboy

I just don't understand the point in this thread. The MMRCA is not going to change the face of the IAF or dramatically improve its capabilities. It seems people are forgetting the IAF operates the best 4th gen air superiority fighter in the world - the SU-30MKI (which will soon be DRAMATICALLY upgraded to "SUPER MKI) and is to get the FGFA by the end of the decade not to mention will also be fielding large numbers of advanced LCA in the same time frame. The MMRCA will be a nice bonus to the IAF but is not the be all and end all of the force.

As such the thread shouldn't be focusing pureley on the MMRCA but should be- options for PAF against IAF of the future.

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## Safriz

Storm Force said:


> Abu wat is the regional balance TODAY
> 
> 50-50
> 70-30
> 80-20
> 
> i WOULD SUGGEST IAF is at least twice the firepower of PAF and will grow to 3-1 in years to come
> 
> INDIA QUALITY ADVANTAGE IS GETTING TOO BIG.
> 
> Other than Typhoon nothing comes close to rafale FOR MODERN TECHNOLOGY


 
dont forget...IAF has a much larger area to cover compared to PAF...
And if you throw andaman and nicobar in the equation the bakance swings towards PAF.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

PAF is primarily a defensive force; what we have and what we'll have should suffice -the three sister services are ready at all times to defend the country. I can assure you that.


as i did clearly point out in my post -- said inductions would pose a challenge to PAF. But it isnt like this deal just fell from the sky, it's been being discussed for almost past decade.


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## Tiger Awan

Abingdonboy said:


> I just don't understand the point in this thread. The MMRCA is not going to change the face of the IAF or dramatically improve its capabilities. It seems people are forgetting the IAF operates the best 4th gen air superiority fighter in the world - the SU-30MKI (which will soon be DRAMATICALLY upgraded to "SUPER MKI) and is to get the FGFA by the end of the decade not to mention will also be fielding large numbers of advanced LCA in the same time frame. The MMRCA will be a nice bonus to the IAF but is not the be all and end all of the force.
> 
> As such the thread shouldn't be focusing pureley on the MMRCA but should be- options for PAF against IAF of the future.



retiring Mig-21 and replacing them with MMRCA is not going to change anything???
challenging any other airforce does not mean you just match the big guns you need more than that.


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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.
> 
> what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?



It was clear that threads like this will come up shortly, but I am surprised that a Think Tank like you started it. However, the selection of Rafale doesn't change much for PAF, unless they want to take it as a reason to hype and spread fear in the public, like many forces do to get more money or new toys. MMRCA is aimed on north eastern borders and on countering Chinese forces, only a few squads will be placed towards Pakistan and even without them, the upgrades of Mirage 2000s, Mig 29 and Su 30 MKI will be more important to PAF, because they add a lot of A2A and A2G capabilities anyway.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

first of all, post #173 brings up a good point...


as well, PAF is primarily a defensive force; what we have and what we'll have should suffice -the three sister services are ready at all times to defend the country. I can assure you that.


as i did clearly point out in my post -- said inductions would pose a challenge to PAF. But it isnt like this deal just fell from the sky, it's been being discussed for almost past decade. Now we have a clearer picture; indian will opt for the strike aircraft over the air-superiority rival one. I guess they figured that the russian flankers cover the air superiority role.


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## Abingdonboy

safriz said:


> dont forget...IAF has a much larger area to cover compared to PAF...
> And if you throw andaman and nicobar in the equation the bakance swings towards PAF.



Hardly. IAF has separate commands with each command having their own ac to cover a given threat so th wides of "spreading thin" is unlikely. Not to mention the IN who is to have 150-200 advanced 4.5/5th gen fighters by 2022 who will be able to cover A&N and open a new front for Pakistan so spreading PAF assets thinly.


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## Jungibaaz

Big Boss said:


> 1. Think tankji you are forgetting that all of these wars you have mentioned India have to divert its forces to 3 fronts west pakistan, east pakistan and china now we have only 2 fronts to take care of.



Bulk of PAF was always at the Western border and it was what is was because fo the West more so then the east, but still... the gap between yourself and China has grown, and PAF in recent years has been closing the gap. 



> 2. With the quality of Indian air defense through purchase and made in India systems deep strike by F-16 as you have mentioned is not possible.



Ever heard of SEAD optimized aircraft? 
PAF's F-16 #10801, is just one example (please Think Tanks confirm the #10801's role or correct me if needed)







now PAF's role would be mostly defensive in war as it had been in 65' and 71'.
BUT You can't simply state that... 'we have SAMs and radar therefore our airspace is impenetrable' 

In a 'limited' war, I don't see any major air battles or even incursion into enemy territory.
But in a full scale war, yes SAMs and Ground radars prevent some SEAD ops, but what's to say there wont be intel on such sites, who's to say that LR A2G weaponry wont be used? Hell 



> 3. India will further make it thinner for pakistan by scattering your assets along your coastline through the use of its multiple aircraft carrier + Su 30 MKIs.



First of all... I want you to realise that in a war you don't line up soldier against soldiers and have at each other until one dies...
There is so mcuh more to tae into account...

similarly, you can't just say we have x amount Jet A and we have 2x amount of Jet B, therefore we win...
It's naive to say the least.

Now, you tell me why an Air force with 80-odd F-16 Block 52, 150JF-17 and 50-odd J-10B backed by AWACS and all BVR capable couldn't fight off the IAF, not to forget SAM systems and radars.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

rockstar said:


> The reason behind actually for the rejection is



they use euro currency buddy.... 


you could be partly right, dont forget also that the europeans love cash upfront --they dont do soft credit...but either way, it's not our problem b/c the best path for PAF is to ensure sanction-proof as well as financially sensible.


Windjammer made an excellent point @ Post #9 which you may want to re-visit








Trisonics said:


> Correct. It has indeed reduced to a defensive force only, a big change from here... all thanks to IAF
> 
> A Khan: Pak Started All Wars with India - YouTube
> 
> K



i think people who are privvy to un-adulterated and non-indianized information would know the real picture about which air forces were seeing reductions (which we see even today without Pakistan's ''help'' --in the form of some of your faulty Mig-21s )


if HAL's maintenance standards and flight safety track record are any indication of ''what's coming'' well then maybe there's less to even be concerned about


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## Donatello

Options for PAF:

a) JF-17
b) J-10s
c)All of the above


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## MilSpec

Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA:

First off. PAF doesn't need to answer IAF acquisitions. 

Pakistan has ample amout of SAM cover and healthy mix of multi role a/c's to defend its skies and ensure that IAF doesn't acquire complete air superiority. Hence pakistan with its intended acquisitions of j17 j10b f16 and future stealth airtcraft will remain at its minimal detterence policy with India 

Rafale will just help IAF to maintain its required modest sqdn strength. SU30MKI and it's proposed upgraded version with aesa with air launched brahmos will outgun every other aircraft in the subcontinent, including the rafale.

IAF needs to bring up its sqdn strength to have optimal defence against the vast numbers of PLAAF, and hence acquisition of rafale, mig 29KUB, and upgrades of MKI, Mig 29upg, and M2k's is not pakistan oriented. With the sorry state of Mig 21 and mig 27, it was essential for IAF to buy aircrafts. 

The real game changer would be if LCA MK2 is a success, then we can look at substantial air dominance with at least 350 LCA mk2 replacing bisons and taking on the bulk of IAF defensive duties. Others can then be used to there original intended purposes.

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## Donatello

Jungibaaz said:


> Bulk of PAF was always at the Western border and it was what is was because fo the West more so then the east, but still... the gap between yourself and China has grown, and PAF in recent years has been closing the gap.
> 
> 
> 
> *Ever heard of SEAD optimized aircraft?
> PAF's F-16 #10801, is just one example (please Think Tanks confirm the #10801's role or correct me if needed)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now PAF's role would be mostly defensive in war as it had been in 65' and 71'.
> BUT You can't simply state that... 'we have SAMs and radar therefore our airspace is impenetrable'
> 
> In a 'limited' war, I don't see any major air battles or even incursion into enemy territory.
> But in a full scale war, yes SAMs and Ground radars prevent some SEAD ops, but what's to say there wont be intel on such sites, who's to say that LR A2G weaponry wont be used? Hell
> 
> 
> 
> First of all... I want you to realise that in a war you don't line up soldier against soldiers and have at each other until one dies...
> There is so mcuh more to tae into account...
> 
> similarly, you can't just say we have x amount Jet A and we have 2x amount of Jet B, therefore we win...
> It's naive to say the least.
> 
> Now, you tell me why an Air force with 80-odd F-16 Block 52, 150JF-17 and 50-odd J-10B backed by AWACS and all BVR capable couldn't fight off the IAF, not to forget SAM systems and radars.




I don't know what you are trying to imply about the F-16 10801, but it looks like a normal multi-role fighter not a SEAD config.......for that you need anti-radiation missiles...long range.....and above all dedicated jamming pods.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Oscar said:


> First.. the JF-17's avionics are fairly satisfactory.. infact.. more than satisfactory as far as the PAF is concerned.
> The europeans arent all out of the game yet.. MBDA is a major supplier for the Rafale's weapons and will send a fair share of profits to the EU's way.
> ..



MBDA is also a supplier of the Spada-2000 air defence system to PAF... 

so they gain from both sides


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## Jungibaaz

Donatello said:


> I don't know what you are trying to imply about the F-16 10801, but it looks like a normal multi-role fighter not a SEAD config.......for that you need anti-radiation missiles...long range.....and above all dedicated jamming pods.




AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile and AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advance Targeting pod can be seen on that particular pic.
If I am not mistaken PAF's F-16s also posses AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

jackyy said:


> The ac you are talking about have already cover their life span so dont expect much from them.
> and mig 21 crashed are mostly due to rookies coz of the high landing speed of mig 21.
> although you can continue to float your boat in your dreams and arguments



has little to do with rookies.....high landing speed? 

seems that a floating boat makes more sense than being lost adrift, cap-sized.....

mig-21 (of similar age) are serving air forces around the world, many with as many if not more flt.hours than the indian versions. I've discussed HAL and their maintenance standards in other threads; i wont deviate from topic here.

dont worry -- i wasnt implying that factory-fresh Rafales would be falling out of the sky just yet. They can be a bit maintenance intensive though, perhaps a bit less than the twin-engined flankers (a few of which crashed already)


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## Pfpilot

People tend to overreact to big headline news. Is the Rafale a superb aircraft? Ofcourse. But is it going to significantly skew the relative balance further against the PAF? I doubt it. That isn't necessarily a good thing, since the current standing of PAF relative to IAF is nothing to feel safe about. Were the Indians to declare war today, we have little in the way of assets to prevent IAF superiority. Compared to a depleted f-16 force (due to ongoing MLUs) and jf-17s induction (in relation to training and tactics) still in its infancy, we stand no real chance against the current IAF force of Mirage 2000s, Su-30mkis, and Mig-29s.
Pakistan's goal maybe to fight any future wars on the defensive, but our history has shown otherwise, ambitious leaders have sacrificed many Pakistani lives in wars that we started. Even if we are to assume a defensive stance, we lack not only quantity, but also quality...similarly, in times of peace, we have a huge crisis in terms of all basic utilities...were a war to break out, how are we going to fuel these massive forces? Pakistan also has very little depth, east to west; in short, being on the defensive provides us with very little of the advantages that are usually built into such scenarios.
If the idea is to fight India, then the result today is the same as it was 10 years ago and will remain the same going forward: we have no chance of a positive result. Maybe the "headline" nature of this news may force the relevant people to realize this and back us out of our aggressive stance towards India gracefully.

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## VCheng

Pfpilot said:


> People tend to overreact to big headline news. Is the Rafale a superb aircraft? Ofcourse. But is it going to significantly skew the relative balance further against the PAF? I doubt it. That isn't necessarily a good thing, since the current standing of PAF relative to IAF is nothing to feel safe about. Were the Indians to declare war today, we have little in the way of assets to prevent IAF superiority. Compared to a depleted f-16 force (due to ongoing MLUs) and jf-17s induction (in relation to training and tactics) still in its infancy, we stand no real chance against the current IAF force of Mirage 2000s, Su-30mkis, and Mig-29s.
> Pakistan's goal maybe to fight any future wars on the defensive, but our history has shown otherwise, ambitious leaders have sacrificed many Pakistani lives in wars that we started. Even if we are to assume a defensive stance, we lack not only quantity, but also quality...similarly, in times of peace, we have a huge crisis in terms of all basic utilities...were a war to break out, how are we going to fuel these massive forces? Pakistan also has very little depth, east to west; in short, being on the defensive provides us with very little of the advantages that are usually built into such scenarios.
> If the idea is to fight India, then the result today is the same as it was 10 years and will remain the same going forward: we have no chance of a positive result. Maybe the "headline" nature of this news may force the relevant people to realize this and back us out of our aggressive stance towards India gracefully.



That is quite a sobering assessment that should be heeded.

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## Edevelop

India has got many different types of aircrafts now: Su-30, Rafale, Mirage 2k, Mig-29, LCA...
All these have slight differences, i mean it may be that one has more hard points than the other, better weapon carrying, better radar, better turn rate, better engine, and etc....

I don't think its game over from Pakistan's side. We really don't need to spend billions on just buying something that has improved payload, and better weapon carrying, and or something that has a new look.

Rather, it would be cheap and effective if JF-17s and J-10s try to improve in later blocks.
Already, some people claim that JF-17 blk 1 has a lower RCA than the F-16 block 52. Moreover, it has an improved radar,KLJ-7, something PAF officials claim to be as capable as the French RC-400. In JF-17 block 2, we are going to have AESA radar and refuelling probes, and IRST. Don't forget, JF-17 has the option of going for WS-13 engine, something more powerful than the RD-93. Last but not least, we had opted to go with J-10B, something we think is better than J-10A.

If we can improve little things just like that and plus have them in large quantities, then that is the best possible thing to do right now to counter India.


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## anathema

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Windjammer made an excellent point @ Post #9 which you may want to re-visit



Abu - WindJammer did not make any point. His point was what we call bookish logic . To the say the least "If Rafale is equal to 2 * JF 17 - then PAF will buy 2 JF17's for every Rafale that India buys" ..Sorry - it just doesnt work that away. I am pasting the reply to him. You can judge. 

_"WJ - one problem in that thought process . Taking your example above. Assuming price of 1 Rafale = Price of 4 JF17's.

IAF is/will spend $20B on this acquisition. Will PAF spend $20B to acquire 4*JF17 - to match up with Rafale numbers ? If PAF has that kind of money then why wont they end up selecting plane like gripen or EF itself ?

Further more - More JF17's - More pilots - More infrastructure - More maintenance. So you are looking at mothball effect. 

So even though logically your reasoning may work - but practically and in reality - it may not !!"_

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## Abhishek_

Indian members, buying an aircraft is one thing, perfecting its air tactics is a whole different thing.
Let's not get in to a chest-beating mode, Rafale doesn't change IN-PK scenario much since most of these birds will go to the eastern borders anyway.

And AS ALWAYS, peace and development is the need of the hour for both Pakistan and India.

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## Kazhugu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> me personally, i'm surprised they wont opt for the Eurofighters. But it may be better for us....not to say that the Rafale is not a formidable aircraft and will prove to be a good challenge for our fighters ---fighters being the gun and the well-drilled man behind the gun.



dogfights are long passe....a well experienced f-16 pilot would be taken out a rookie in a raptor without as much as blinking the eye....the man behind the wheel nonsense cuts no more...

and in any case other than '65...the indian pilots have proved they are second to none...


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## Bl[i]tZ

I too do not subscribe to the thread starters rationale "Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA".

Let me state my reasons. Please don't mind my language since I'll try to present an Indian view point.

--> Lately, the IAF has been paying a lot of attention to the eastern border. Su-30MKIs are being placed on the eastern border with China. MMRCA is also most probably going to be stationed on our eastern flank. They are our bigger neighbor and will be honored with our most modern fighters.  In case of an immediate war, Pakistan will mostly face 68 Mig29s, 150? Su30MKI, 51 Mirage 2000, 120 Jaguars, 147 Mig27s and 150 Mig 21s or the respective upgraded versions. Other than the Su-30MKIs on China border and some Jaguars on maritime security, all these fighters are Pak specific and PAF probably has some sort of doctrine for them.

->If anything, the two decades have shown us that both the prominent parties in India have not being able to authorize a military op to retaliate against perceived Pakistani adventurism on Indian soil be it Kargil, Parliament attack or Mumbai. The primary reason is nobody in India can predict Pakistan's nuclear threshold. It is assumed that as soon as the tanks break into the southern Punjab, Pakistan might use the nuclear option on advancing forces or take out some key cities. This shivers a lot of Indian politicians since from here on its on auto-pilot, meaning the Indian retaliation (according to our N doctrine) will be massive, causing unacceptable damage. No Indian politician (Yes, even the Hindu-nationalist BJP with Advani et al.) wants to take responsibility for such a nuclear war.


As for the future, solely looking at IAF won't do the trick, you've to count in IN, which is massively modernizing (a 45 strong Mig 29k fighter fleet on order), as well. There are three scenarios from here on -

1. if Pakistan doesn't keep up, in a decades time India might feel comfortable to retaliate against Pak due its FGFA/PAK FA programme, its Anti-ballistic missile system, aircraft carriers and second strike capabilities due to nuclear SSBNs deterring Pakistan not to launch nukes first etc. 

2. Pakistan modernizes its armed forces holistically, viz., air defence fighters for air force, nuclear SSNs. (If its economy keeps failing and it tries to match India militarily, it'll suffer like Soviet Union did against the US, remember Russia still has more N bombs than US). So economy is the key here.

3. Both nations move towards peace.

I would like #3 and hope for #1.

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## DelhiDareDevil

Excuse me, but isnt all of this talk useless, as the Rafale jets will be stationed in India/China border?

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## VCheng

DelhiDareDevil said:


> Excuse me, but isnt all of this talk useless, as the Rafale jets will be stationed in India/China border?



Aw come now, let the armchair generals have their fun over afternoon tea!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Big Boss said:


> 3. India will further make it thinner for pakistan by scattering your assets along your coastline through the use of its multiple aircraft carrier + Su 30 MKIs.


Pakistan does not have a large enough coastline for any effective 'asset scattering due to Indian Aircraft Carriers'. The PAF/PN will have to address an air threat from the coast, but it will not be anywhere close to as large an issue had Pakistan had a coastline like India's - now that would cause an immense headache for military planners if confronted by capable Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Big Boss said:


> *My 2 cents:*
> 
> 1. Now, pakistan have become more dependent on US of A and china.
> 
> 2. USA can hard bargain and the situation in Afghanistan will also have an effect as pakistan looses its bargaining power.
> 
> 3. Then there is a possibility of a kill switch in F-16 from USA.
> 
> India will go for about 200 Rafale as Tejas will take time in maturing.


Point 3 negates point 1 (where you talk about Pakistan being more dependent on the US).

And If Pakistan does not trust the US when it comes to being a reliable military supplier, then the Indian acquisition of the Rafale does nothing in terms of giving the US more leverage over Pakistan in Afghanistan. In any case, the MMRCA acquisition process has been going on for a long enough time for Pakistan to realize that eventually it would have to cater to such a threat.


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## Edevelop

If India never rejected F-16 IN from the U.S, then we would probably have never gotten our F-16 Block 52s and F-16 MLUs.... Now that we have them, it will always be a threat to your aircrafts including rafale.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Pakistan does not have a large enough coastline for any effective 'asset scattering* due to Indian Aircraft Carriers'. The PAF/PN will have to address an air threat from the coast, but it will not be anywhere close to as large an issue had Pakistan had a coastline like India's - now that would cause an immense headache for military planners if confronted by capable Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups.



A more important corollary to the relatively short coastline is that Pakistan remains vulnerable to a sea blockade with devastating consequences for its logistics during any conflict longer than a few days or weeks at the most.


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## Luftwaffe

VCheng said:


> A more important corollary to the relatively short coastline is that Pakistan remains vulnerable to a sea blockade with devastating consequences for its logistics during any conflict longer than a few days or weeks at the most.



Any blockade leaves your neighbor directly vulnerable sort of all bets off. You put blockage you face nasty consequences equally. In other words an unfortunate move but has to be implemented to release considerable pressure.


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## Icewolf

no worries we'll have finished our production of JF-17 block III or II (both are stealth optimized) so we'll fare well. and we're working on J-2X with China

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## Icewolf

no worries we'll be finished producing JF-17 block II or III (both are stealth optimized) and we're working on J-2X with china


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## IndoUS

NeutralCitizen said:


> Very likely pakistan won't even get them.




I would say it will depend on the price tag. If China can produce the Aircraft cheaply, and will it be willing to sell its high end technology for such a cheap price to other countries.


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## Edevelop

> Pakistan is in no position to buy EF or Rafales, your economic sitution is bad and only china remains question is will it give you weapons like the US does to Israel ?



India has got many different types of aircrafts now: Su-30, Rafale, Mirage 2k, Mig-29, LCA...
All these have slight differences, i mean it may be that one has more hard points than the other, better weapon carrying, better radar, better turn rate, better engine, and etc....

I don't think its game over from Pakistan's side. We really don't need to spend billions on just buying something that has improved payload, and better weapon carrying, and or something that has a new look.

Rather, it would be cheap and effective if JF-17s and J-10s try to improve in later blocks.
Already, some people claim that JF-17 blk 1 has a lower RCA than the F-16 block 52. Moreover, it has an improved radar,KLJ-7, something PAF officials claim to be as capable as the French RC-400. In JF-17 block 2, we are going to have AESA radar and refuelling probes, and IRST. Don't forget, JF-17 has the option of going for WS-13 engine, something more powerful than the RD-93. Last but not least, we had opted to go with J-10B, something we think is better than J-10A.

Other weapons include:

Air defence systems: Spada 2000, Anza Mk1,Mk2, HQ-2, HQ-9, Fim-92 Stinger, Cortale 4000
Cruise Missiles: Babur (Hatf VII), Hatf-VIII (Ra'ad)
Ballistic Misisles: Shaheen 1, 2, Ghauri 1,2, Ghaznavi, Abdali, Nazr, etc...
BVR: SD-10 A, B
Awacs: Eriey, ZDK-03, Falcon 20
Nuclear war heads: 100+


If we can improve little things just like that and plus have them in large quantities, then that is the best possible thing to do right now to counter India.

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## NeutralCitizen

cb4 said:


> India has got many different types of aircrafts now: Su-30, Rafale, Mirage 2k, Mig-29, LCA...
> All these have slight differences, i mean it may be that one has more hard points than the other, better weapon carrying, better radar, better turn rate, better engine, and etc....
> 
> I don't think its game over from Pakistan's side. We really don't need to spend billions on just buying something that has improved payload, and better weapon carrying, and or something that has a new look.
> 
> Rather, it would be cheap and effective if JF-17s and J-10s try to improve in later blocks.
> Already, some people claim that JF-17 blk 1 has a lower RCA than the F-16 block 52. Moreover, it has an improved radar,KLJ-7, something PAF officials claim to be as capable as the French RC-400. In JF-17 block 2, we are going to have AESA radar and refuelling probes, and IRST. Don't forget, JF-17 has the option of going for WS-13 engine, something more powerful than the RD-93. Last but not least, we had opted to go with J-10B, something we think is better than J-10A.
> 
> Other weapons include:
> 
> Air defence systems: Spada 2000, Anza Mk1,Mk2, HQ-2, HQ-9, Fim-92 Stinger, Cortale 4000
> Cruise Missiles: Babur (Hatf VII), Hatf-VIII (Ra'ad)
> Ballistic Misisles: Shaheen 1, 2, Ghauri 1,2, Ghaznavi, Abdali, Nazr, etc...
> BVR: SD-10 A, B
> Awacs: Eriey, ZDK-03, Falcon 20
> Nuclear war heads: 100+
> 
> 
> If we can improve little things just like that and plus have them in large quantities, then that is the best possible thing to do right now to counter India.



Something I agree on you should also look into the HQ-16 to replace HQ-9.


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## IndianArmy

Windjammer said:


> I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
> Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
> Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.



I have a Doubt which is not rocket science either, but how did you conclude that thunders would fight an outnumbered Rafale? 

Let me take your scenario for example. Do you not think that the era of Dog fighting is gone and these so called outnumbered Rafales can pick up the JFT's on their Radar's Miles before you could spot them?


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## Icewolf

IndianArmy said:


> I have a Doubt which is not rocket science either, but how did you conclude that thunders would fight an outnumbered Rafale?
> 
> Let me take your scenario for example. Do you not think that the era of Dog fighting is gone and these so called outnumbered Rafales can pick up the JFT's on their Radar's Miles before you could spot them?


 
JF-17 block II will have stealth and diamond nose kinda like EF Typhoon, and JF-17 block III will be equivalent to F-35A. plus we are making with China J-2X which is small brother of J-20


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## IndianArmy

Icewolf said:


> JF-17 block II will have stealth and diamond nose kinda like EF Typhoon, and JF-17 block III will be equivalent to F-35A. plus we are making with China J-2X which is small brother of J-20



Do you have it documented??? Can I have a Go through?? Or is it a mere assumption?

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## S10

J-10B's cost is somewhere around 250 mil in RMB now, due to upgrades. That works out to be around 38 to 40 mil USD per plane. Even JF-17 will likely surpass 20 mil USD in price tag. The next generation J-20 will be close to 100 mil USD. Some people are under the perception that China can produce high end defence products for the price of dirt, which is not true. While Chinese products can be cheaper, the margin is generally only razor thin as high end products are more technologically intense and labour costs play a smaller part. In some cases, such as T/R modules used in AESA radars, Japan and US can produce them cheaper than China can.

In short, the hope that PAF can stay in the race by purchasing Chinese planes with comparable to EF/Rafale at 1/3 of the price is no more than a pipe dream. The reality is China *CAN'T* produce J-10B anywhere near the cheap price range some are hoping for. Without improvement to Pakistan's political, security and economic environment, India will enlarge its numerical and technologically lead over PAF in the long run.

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## IndoUS

S10 said:


> J-10B's cost is somewhere around 250 mil in RMB now, due to upgrades. That works out to be around 38 to 40 mil USD per plane. Even JF-17 will likely surpass 20 mil USD in price tag. The next generation J-20 will be close to 100 mil USD. Some people are under the perception that China can produce high end defence products for the price of dirt, which is not true. While Chinese products can be cheaper, the margin is generally only razor thin as high end products are more technologically intense and labour costs play a smaller part. In some cases, such as T/R modules used in AESA radars, Japan and US can produce them cheaper than China can.
> 
> In short, the hope that PAF can stay in the race by purchasing Chinese planes with comparable to EF/Rafale at 1/3 of the price is no more than a pipe dream. The reality is China *CAN'T* produce J-10B anywhere near the cheap price range some are hoping for. Without improvement to Pakistan's political, security and economic environment, India will enlarge its numerical and technologically lead over PAF in the long run.



The main concern for India is China currently and I am not going to deny it. I look at China as a role model and something as a barrier that India must try to overcome. Most of the projects that China is doing is for the improvement of its own R&D and to create a better technology platform for its future fighters, and as for Pakistan if China isn't willing to sell for cheap then Pakistan would be in some what of a trouble since they won't be able to buy these jets in numbers. 

As for Imran Khan I can't say much since I live in US, many politician make big promises and it is after the actual election and after they are sworn in would you see their real face. Many politician in India promise big things and give out gifts and free health care services and other things but that is only till election. Even Obama promised many things but look at it now the economy is now in a even deeper hole than when he took office and his plan is to print more money for his dream plans.

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## shuntmaster

Luftwaffe said:


> Any blockade leaves your neighbor directly vulnerable sort of all bets off. You put blockage you face nasty consequences equally. In other words an unfortunate move but has to be implemented to release considerable pressure.


Any war is nasty affair. Defence planners take into consideration all eventualities when handling the hostilities.


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## RazPaK

I wish Muradk was here to provide his input.


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## IndoUS

The only thing I can say for now is that Pakistan can either ask China for advance fighter jets or, buy other aircraft in large number as to have a quantity over quality thing.


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## Icewolf

well i think we have a chance for J-20 after 2016 since (hopefully) our economy will be better, we may be able to even buy Gripen or upgrade to JFT block 4


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## jackyy

IndoUS said:


> The only thing I can say for now is that Pakistan can either ask China for advance fighter jets or, buy other aircraft in large number as to have a quantity over quality thing.



MMRCA was never for pakistan.This thread is nothing more than a self claimed threat.
Most of the planes will be shifted to north east not towards west. and only objective is to get tech for local industry with no strings.

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## Icewolf

I think the whole world should switch to drone technology as that will probably be the dominant air defense and attack in many air forces while other airforces will have to stick with 5th generation fighters.


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## IndoUS

Icewolf said:


> well i think we have a chance for J-20 after 2016 since (hopefully) our economy will be better, we may be able to even buy Gripen or upgrade to JFT block 4



I would say more like between 2018 and 2020. China would most likely first provide for its own air force rather than supplying another country.

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 PM ----------




jackyy said:


> MMRCA was never for pakistan.This thread is nothing more than a self claimed threat.
> Most of the planes will be shifted to north east not towards west. and only objective is to get tech for local industry with no strings.


I look at MMRCA as more of a technology based need where the technology will be used in the LCA and the AMCA project. And after thta these fighter will most likely be deployed in the east with some being based near Delhi.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jackyy said:


> Most of the planes will be shifted to north east not towards west.


And are they designed to never be able to fly West?

You have reiterated this nonsensical point enough times - deploying the air craft in any particular location during peace time does not preclude their use in, and/or re-deployment to, another location.

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## jackyy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And are they designed to never be able to fly West?
> 
> You have reiterated this nonsensical point enough times - deploying the air craft in any particular location during peace time does not preclude their use in, and/or re-deployment to, another location.



Sir,it has been in news from many years and till now without mmrca,india have enough for western border to cover.
Please have a review over the interviews of former air chief's of india.

your point is also correct but mmrca is basically meant for china

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## shuntmaster

Reports say the first few squadrons of Rafale will be based in the Western command and later squadrons will be based on eastern command.
The Fighter squadrons can be easily and quickly re-deployed whenever and wherever required during the times of war.

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## Edevelop

Using big weapons is a big thing and having experience is another. How well is India prepared to strike Pak? We have been waiting for years now....
The fact is since the 80s, there hasn't been a proper war. Pakistan uses mujahedeen to counter, and India sticks to its original plan to use its forces. On the scale, this wasn't a full face to face confrontation war, but a proxy only. 
Now for us during that period, we have managed to fight and experience Soviets, Afghanis, Americans, and NATO. What is that you have learned that we can't face the reality of facing you?
Having faced all superpowers, and we will find you a joke.

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## IndoUS

Considering that these are aircraft and are easy to transport I don't see the reason to put restriction into where they can operate. But yes they are better to be deployed to the east where the IAF needs more muscle. We already have enough bases and aircraft deployed toward the west now its time to give some attention to the east.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jackyy said:


> Sir,it has been in news from many years and till now without mmrca,india have enough for western border to cover.
> Please have a review over the interviews of former air chief's of india.


It does not matter what the rhetoric is - your Military Chiefs could claim 'in the news' that they will only throw flowers at Pakistani troops in case of war, no one is actually going to sit back and take that as some sort of iron clad guarantee from India.

In case of hostilities between India and Pakistan, there is absolutely nothing that will prevent the Indian Military from redeploying its MMRCA to the Western front. 

An efficient and modern military does not function on the basis of 'X equipment for this front alone and Y equipment for that front alone' - a modern military will develop and plan for EVERY SINGLE ASSET it possesses being redeployed and used at ANY location it needs to use those assets to WIN.

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## jackyy

shuntmaster said:


> Reports say the first few squadrons of Rafale will be based in the Western command and later squadrons will be based on eastern command.
> The Fighter squadrons can be easily and quickly re-deployed whenever and wherever required during the times of war.




no buddy,First squad will be in ambala in haryana and next will be north east with MKI's

---------- Post added at 08:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 AM ----------

also with in 3-4 years,IAF is going to make kargil as one of the largest air base in north


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## joekrish

As of now the best thing that Pakistan can do is improve its economy. India will keep buying and upgrading and it would be imposiable for Pakistan to counter India plane by plane. India will not dare to attack Pakistan as long as the Nukes are on the plate. It would be best for Pakistan to shelf the K issue, change its policy until it is ready on all fronts.

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## jackyy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It does not matter what the rhetoric is - your Military Chiefs could claim 'in the news' that they will only throw flowers at Pakistani troops in case of war, no one is actually going to sit back and take that as some sort of iron clad guarantee from India.
> 
> In case of hostilities between India and Pakistan, there is absolutely nothing that will prevent the Indian Military from redeploying its MMRCA to the Western front.
> 
> An efficient and modern military does not function on the basis of 'X equipment for this front alone and Y equipment for that front alone' - a modern military will develop and plan for EVERY SINGLE ASSET it possesses being redeployed and used at ANY location it needs to use those assets to WIN.



thats truth but mmrca is purchased by ranting against china.


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## shuntmaster

cb4 said:


> Using big weapons is a big thing and having experience is another. How well is India prepared to strike Pak? We have been waiting for years now....
> The fact is since the 80s, there hasn't been a proper war. Pakistan uses mujahedeen to counter, and India sticks to its original plan to use its forces. On the scale, this wasn't a full face to face confrontation war, but a proxy only.
> Now for us during that period, we have managed to fight and experience Soviets, Afghanis, Americans, and NATO. What is that you have learned that we can't face the reality of facing you?
> Having faced all superpowers, and we will find you a joke.



India did use the airforce very effectively during the Kargil war. The Mirage-2000 was used with deadly results in A2G role. The IAF was so impressed with M2K that they wanted more of it. But unfortunately France has stopped M2K production and that was the genesis of the MMRCA tender process. It is very logical that IAF finally decided on M2K's successor which is the Rafale.

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## subanday

We need to invest in Quality long range SAM systems. We are not an Attacking Force by default, so we need to make our defenses rock solid, and SAMs play a key role in that...


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## S10

IndoUS said:


> The main concern for India is China currently and I am not going to deny it. I look at China as a role model and something as a barrier that India must try to overcome. Most of the projects that China is doing is for the improvement of its own R&D and to create a better technology platform for its future fighters, and as for Pakistan if China isn't willing to sell for cheap then Pakistan would be in some what of a trouble since they won't be able to buy these jets in numbers.


China *can* sell J-10B and JF-17 to Pakistan as cheap as it wants. That's not the question being asked here. The issue is some people think China can produce those planes at a super affordable price, which is not true. To provide Pakistan with the planes at that price, China would be taking a loss. While I have no doubt China will offer its best price to Pakistan, I don't think it will go as far as to pay out of its own pocket. As friendly as China is towards Pakistan, it can't fight Pakistan's battles.

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## Edevelop

shuntmaster said:


> India did use the airforce very effectively during the *Kargil war*. The Mirage-2000 was used with deadly results in A2G role. The IAF was so impressed with M2K that they wanted more of it. But unfortunately France has stopped M2K production and that was the genesis of the MMRCA tender process. It is very logical that IAF finally decided on M2K's successor which is the Rafale.



There is no such thing as Kargil War... It was nothing but a conflict.
Come on man, why don't you start calling Siachin a war as well?
MK2 was used only on people with just ak-47 on top of mountains. Surely, this was an easy task, as the opponent was not capable of bringing them down with a simple short weapon.
The role of M2K was never IN Pakistan. You're other jets tried to come in deep, but failed. We shot them down...
You should have use MK2 but you didn't...
Agnostic muslim is right. Are your new fighter jets able to fly West?


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## shuntmaster

joekrish said:


> As of now the best thing that Pakistan can do is improve its economy. India will keep buying and upgrading and it would be imposiable for Pakistan to counter India plane by plane. India will not dare to attack Pakistan as long as the Nukes are on the plate. It would be best for Pakistan to shelf the K issue, change its policy until it is ready on all fronts.



Until 1980's PAF had the quality advantage over IAF's quantity. In the 2000's the qualitative advantage shifted towards IAF with induction of Su-30MKI's, whereas PAF degraded both in quality and quantity. The best option for PAF is to improve on the quantitative aspect by inducting more low cost, low performance jets like JF-17's and medium cost, medium performance Jets like J-10 to counter IAF's qualitative advantage.

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## Yeti

It is correct that in war like situation you would use your assets and the Rafale like the Mirages before it will be a factor for Pakistan to counter. The lower RCS of the plane combined with the AESA all linked up with the Indian AWACS is the type of net-centric future warfare the IA is moving towards. 

How Pakistan can counter it: investing in more SAM's/cruise missiles to hit runways etc/better BVR missiles and pilot training is what my initial steps would be.

Also if the UAE does buy the Rafale than Pakistan could adopt air exercises with them to understand the plane and its weakness.

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## joekrish

shuntmaster said:


> Until 1980's PAF had the quality advantage over IAF's quantity. In the 2000's the qualitative advantage shifted towards IAF with induction of Su-30MKI's, whereas PAF degraded both in quality and quantity. The best option for PAF is to improve on the quantitative aspect by inducting more low cost, low performance jets like JF-17's and medium cost, medium performance Jets like J-10 to counter IAF's qualitative advantage.



Agreed! So..... should Pakistan try and counter everything that India buys.


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## newdelhinsa

S10 said:


> China *can* sell J-10B and JF-17 to Pakistan as cheap as it wants. That's not the question being asked here. The issue is some people think China can produce those planes at a super affordable price, which is not true. To provide Pakistan with the planes at that price, China would be taking a loss. While I have no doubt China will offer its best price to Pakistan, I don't think it will go as far as to pay out of its own pocket. As friendly as China is towards Pakistan, it can't fight Pakistan's battles.



Doesn't make any sense.


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## gubbi

Yeti said:


> How Pakistan can counter it: investing in more SAM's/cruise missiles to hit runways etc/better BVR missiles and pilot training is what my initial steps would be.



Thats a long way off. Recollect the role of Rafales in a recent conflict - Libya. Rafale aircraft flew the first strike missions, jamming Libyan radars and striking their SAM assets and armor. Within a matter of days, Libyan air-space was devoid of any threat to NATO aircraft!

And remember that it was SPECTRA suite that protected Rafale fighters, and not some dedicated SEAD platforms.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Yeti said:


> It is correct that in war like situation you would use your assets and the Rafale like the Mirages before it will be a factor for Pakistan to counter. The lower RCS of the plane combined with the AESA all linked up with the Indian AWACS is the type of net-centric future warfare the IA is moving towards.
> 
> How Pakistan can counter it: investing in more SAM's/cruise missiles to hit runways etc/better BVR missiles and pilot training is what my initial steps would be.
> 
> Also if the UAE does buy the Rafale than Pakistan could adopt air exercises with them to understand the plane and its weakness.


Something to remember here is that 'net-centricity' works to the advantage of both sides, if both sides are pursuing it. Pakistan's investments in the Swedish and Chinese AEW&C's, along with the work done and being done on linking all of its air assets to a C4 system, would largely negate the 'radar range advantage' that larger Indian fighters possess, since 'detection of an Indian air threat and relaying that information to PAF fighter jets' would be done initially through the AEW&C's - the same is true on the Indian side - Indian AWACs would detect the PAF long before the MMRCA or Sukhois would.

And when one side or the other has enemy AC detection, a whole range of factors, systems and processes come into play, both local to the fighter jets as well as the supporting systems. Fighter based ECM, AWACs based ECM, missile range and performance, ground based countermeasures etc. etc. etc.

So even with a fleet comprised mainly of the JF-17, equipped with advanced SRAAMs, MRAAMs and LRAAM's and ECCM suites, the MMRCA+Sukhoi Indian threat is not the 'END ALL HUGE ADVANTAGE' that some are trying to paint it as, from both sides of the border.

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## Yeti

gubbi said:


> Thats a long way off. Recollect the role of Rafales in a recent conflict - Libya. Rafale aircraft flew the first strike missions, jamming Libyan radars and striking their SAM assets and armor. Within a matter of days, Libyan air-space was devoid of any threat to NATO aircraft!
> 
> And remember that it was SPECTRA suite that protected Rafale fighters, and not some dedicated SEAD platforms.





I feel investing in more SAM's would be a good approach for Pakistan to undertake but im not sure what other options are there?

We have one of the best AWACS systems also in the world and that linked up with our Rafale in the future will be very hard for Pakistan to match with JF17 in my book.


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## Mani2020

Windjammer said:


> PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.



Sir jee no doubt that PAF tested the Rafale and along with it PAF also tested gripen and EF-2000 but the rejection of these aircrafts by PAF was not because they were short of capabilities or they have some glitches in their performance but rather it was more of a political interest , we had enough money at that time,the bags were full and the most deals which are shinning now a days were signed in that era but the musharraf govt was american centric.... when the trials were going on the americans played a card that worked for them and we were trapped again.... US offered us with block 52 and as our forces are obsessed with f-16 like it is the only aircraft that will remain till the last day of the world as the best fighter plus the reason that we already had f-16s (which by the way was less hindrance for me and more of an excuse) we went for it...and US trapped us again ...we should rather have split the deals like india did ... for mlu and other equipment we may have gone for USA but for aircrafts if we have diverted to french or britain it would have opened new doors for us 

bt we failed ....i was once told that the Rafale was most dearest to PAF pilots .... Paf when knew they are not getting their hands on to Rafale or other bidders they tilted towards china for j-10 whose sweet spot was its price....ACM clearly mentioned that j-10 lagged the capabilities required by the PAF. so it was more cost-oriented decision...later on there were attempts for j-10 to make it better to suit PAF


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## Edevelop

Yeti said:


> I feel investing in more SAM's would be a good approach for Pakistan to undertake but im not sure what other options are there?
> 
> We have one of the best AWACS systems also in the world and that linked up with our Rafale in the future will be very hard for Pakistan to match with JF17 in my book.



I still don't think this is the era of look and shoot from distance. India and Pakistan are next door, you would have to face dog fight with us instead. Are Rafales capable of doing that? IMO, its still the pilot factor....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Yeti said:


> I feel investing in more SAM's would be a good approach for Pakistan to undertake but im not sure what other options are there?
> 
> We have one of the best AWACS systems also in the world and that linked up with our Rafale in the future will be very hard for Pakistan to match with JF17 in my book.


A high altitude SAM system along with the continued investment in and development of the JF-17, C4 system, AEW&C assets and other ground based detection systems is the path Pakistan is currently on and should continue to pursue.


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## ziaulislam

its time people should undertand how PAF works
it will basically have JF-17 and J-10/F-16 mix..
*each of them will have a definite chance of success against any indian fourth gen aircraft*
only real difference will be that thunder will most likely face its enemy in its own territory and f-16/j-10 in opposition territory 

the real issue PAF should be thinking is the fifth gen aircraft and i am pretty sure it is..

when thunder was going its development PAF knew the threats of Su 30 and MRCA, in fact i am pretty sure PAF knew that shortlist aircrafts as a guess. 

*lastly, thunder cost doesn't mean its a super inferior aircraft, it simply mean that its a chinese-pakistan indigenous one with low R&D due to browing of techn from J-10*

In nutshell thunder in a cohert war can easily face any indian fourth gen jet..it can pick up and use BVRs at its will with excellent avionics and ECM capabilites...

to me MRCA has from begining a waste of indian resources when they could have used the LCA. isnt it surpriser that after Arabs its biggest militery deals?


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## Yeti

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Something to remember here is that 'net-centricity' works to the advantage of both sides, if both sides are pursuing it. Pakistan's investments in the Swedish and Chinese AEW&C's, along with the work done and being done on linking all of its air assets to a C4 system, would largely negate the 'radar range advantage' that larger Indian fighters possess, since 'detection of an Indian air threat and relaying that information to PAF fighter jets' would be done initially through the AEW&C's - the same is true on the Indian side - Indian AWACs would detect the PAF long before the MMRCA or Sukhois would.
> 
> And when one side or the other has enemy AC detection, a whole range of factors, systems and processes come into play, both local to the fighter jets as well as the supporting systems. Fighter based ECM, AWACs based ECM, missile range and performance, ground based countermeasures etc. etc. etc.
> 
> So even with a fleet comprised mainly of the JF-17, equipped with advanced SRAAMs, MRAAMs and LRAAM's and ECCM suites, the MMRCA+Sukhoi Indian threat is not the 'END ALL HUGE ADVANTAGE' that some are trying to paint it as, from both sides of the border.




Totally agree, the purchase of Pakistan's Ereye system is a big game changer as one must remember that past conflicts were not fought with such net-centric warfare as it would be today.

The SD-10 BVR missile for the Thunder is a good system and will pose a threat to the IAF this if it was combined with more SAM sites placed in a strategic fashion would make penetrating Pakitan's airspace that much harder.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If we look at the deal , MRCA well Pakistan has already secured its solution 

How many Fighters is India recieving 100 

Well folks , Pakistan has already recieved 18 F16 C/D and now option 18 F16 Block C/D Total 36 Fighters
Plus 36 J10B fighters will be added to Pakistani Forces 

So in Total that is 72 brand new planes by 2015 (Block C/D plus J10B)

So there is a difference of 30 new jets that India got , well that difference can be blanced by with either retaining few planes form 300 planes Pakistan airforces has (Mirage , Chinese )

Not to forget that we are also getting our JF17 Thunders 300 fighters

Not to forget that JF17 thunder Block 2 , and Block 3 might provide something far more superior 


*From my prespective :*
The only major difference that has emerged in recent years has been 
a) Nuclear Submarine Lease
b) Posiden Anti Ship/Submarine planes

30 Odd Rafale plane difference can be easily cancelled by addition of more J10B fighters if needed 

I look forward to 6 Submarine addition in Pakistan Navy , our Airforce has already setup a good system


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## Edevelop

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A high altitude SAM system along with the continued investment in and development of the JF-17, C4 system, AEW&C assets and other ground based detection systems is the path Pakistan is currently on and should continue to pursue.



We are pretty good with Missiles.
We started off with Balastics, i.e Shaheen 1, Ghazanavi, Abdali
... then to light version of Surface to Air, i.e Anza 1
... then to cruise missiles i.e Babur, Ra'ad
If we did all this indigenously, then we should have no problem, making high altitude SAMS indigenously as well. I guess time will tell...


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## gubbi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A high altitude SAM system along with the continued investment in and development of the JF-17, C4 system, AEW&C assets and other ground based detection systems is the path Pakistan is currently on and should continue to pursue.



How would SPECTRA suite cope with those threats?

Heres whats known about SPECTRA. From* Strategypage forum:*



> SPECTRA = Système de Protection et d'Evitement des Conduites de Tir du Rafale ? Self Protection Equipment Countering Threats of Rafale Aircraft
> 
> Heart of the SPECTRA is the GIC computer (Gestion de l'Interface et Compatibilité) comprising 3 processors.
> 
> The SPECTRA components include:
> 
> DBEM (Détection et Brouillage Electromagnétique) - RWR/ECM
> - programmable threat libaries
> - ELINT/SIGINT functions
> - Fully fused with other on- & offboard sensor data
> 
> RWR/ESM
> - digital receivers
> - 3 antennas with 120° azimuth coverage each located on the intakes and fin tip pod, plus additional antennas on the wing tips
> - Interferometry (azimuth & elevation) with stated <1 deg bearing accuracy
> - 2-40 GHz frequency coverage (some sources suggest lower end coverage ~200 MHz)
> - geolocation of emitters
> - ~250 km detection range (dependent on the emitter)
> - Target coordination generation for weapons employment
> 
> DECM
> - 3 AESA antennas on the fin root and canard roots
> - DRFM based
> - pencil thin jamming beams
> - offensive, defensive and stealthy modes
> 
> DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) - MLD
> - 2 mid-wave IIR sensors on the fin tip pod sides (360 deg azimuth coverage)
> 
> DAL (Detecteur d?Alerte Laser) - LWR
> - 3 sensors on the front fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod
> 
> Decoy dispensers
> - 4 vertical firing flare/decoy dispensers on the top of the fuselage near the wing trailing edges and 2 chaff dispensers on the rear fuselage sides behind the wings

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## Yeti

cb4 said:


> I still don't think this is the era of look and shoot from distance. India and Pakistan are next door, you would have to face dog fight with us instead. Are Rafales capable of doing that? IMO, its still the pilot factor....




When i saw the demo of the Rafale at MAKS 2011 it really did look like a extremely maneuverable jet but i agree pilot skills still comes into play.


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## Yaduveer

Is Rafale equipped with AESA radar ?


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## Yaduveer

Why not Pakistan go for MIG 35 plane ? 
That is cheap ~35m $ with AESA radar. Will Russia forget role of pakistan played in Afganistan war and go for the deal ?


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## gubbi

Jarha said:


> Is Rafale equipped with AESA radar ?



Not yet. But Rafale aircraft for IAF would come equipped with AESA radars. Armée de l'Air would receive their first five AESA equipped Tranche 4 Rafale aircraft by the end of 2013.

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## Bl[i]tZ

cb4 said:


> Using big weapons is a big thing and having experience is another. How well is India prepared to strike Pak? We have been waiting for years now....
> The fact is since the 80s, there hasn't been a proper war. Pakistan uses mujahedeen to counter, and India sticks to its original plan to use its forces. On the scale, this wasn't a full face to face confrontation war, but a proxy only.
> Now for us during that period, we have managed to fight and experience Soviets, Afghanis, Americans, and NATO. What is that you have learned that we can't face the reality of facing you?
> Having faced all superpowers, and we will find you a joke.



I'm going OT for this one post.

Since you've a Canadian flag, I thought I would drop a friendly suggestion. You may have sympathies, for what mods insist on calling as militant groups, but since LeT, HuJI etc are all designated as terrorist organizations it would be best for YOUR OWN SAKE to not show your sympathies for them so publically. In the US atleast posting is counted as speech. There have been some incidents in the US over picking people over their links to LeT etc. The recent one I remember was a Pakistani guy who made a propaganda video for Hafiz Saeed's son.

Here are the links for your reference 

Lashkar-e-Taiba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Be safe! This internet chest thumping can end up being very very costly!

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## fatman17

Jarha said:


> Why not Pakistan go for MIG 35 plane ?
> That is cheap ~35m $ with AESA radar. Will Russia forget role of pakistan played in Afganistan war and go for the deal ?



PAF will prefer single-engine platforms


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well JF17 thunder block 2 or 3 will also come with AESA , and same with J10B so the AESA advantage will be pertty much nullified 
In end it all comes to political move by India so France would no longer sell weapons to pakistan thats all it is 

Euro Fighter makes no sense for Pakistan Airforce

We are good with *300 *(Block 1, Block 2 , Block 3 fighters) by 2015 
87 F16 C/D and 36 J10B , are quite sufficient addition by 2015 

Almost 450 planes by 2015 , we are really fine 

We just need to get our 6 Submarines from China and perhaps get few Submarine hunter planes and we are set

40-50 Super Cobras by 2015 would also be ok , addition 

But our nation's Focus will probbly shift to economy after 2013 elections and rightfully so

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## deckingraj

fatman17 said:


> PAF will prefer single-engine platforms



And what is the reason for that??? Cost..??? PAF has lot of experience with Chinese jets which do bring in some similarity with Russian Migs...so mig35 is not that bad of a choice, no???


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## shuntmaster

The biggest disadvantage Pakistan has is its geography. There is simply no strategic depth. Majority of Pakistan and almost all its critical and strategic assets and infrastructure is within a few hundred kilometres from the border. Majority of the population centres are along the Indus river and 70% of the population is between Indus and Indo-pak border.
Pakistan airfields and SAM systems can be easily taken out even by land based system within Indian territory.

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## deckingraj

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We are good with *300 *(Block 1, Block 2 , Block 3 fighters) by 2015
> 87 F16 C/D and 36 J10B , are quite sufficient addition by 2015
> 
> Almost 450 planes by 2015 , we are really fine



How many JF-17 do you have right now in the kitty??? reaching 300 in next 4 years...seems to me impossible...can you throw some more light on this??

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Plus lets not forget that we posses stealth technology now , and likely Block 3 JF17 thunder will be highly coated stealthy Thunders 

AESA 
Stealthy features 
New Engines 

Will certainly make JF17 thunders a solid platform for future , and we don't necessarily need a 100 million over price plane called Euro fighter


Stealth Alloy and metal composition secrets right here


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## jackyy

deckingraj said:


> And what is the reason for that??? Cost..??? PAF has lot of experience with Chinese jets which do bring in some similarity with Russian Migs...so mig35 is not that bad of a choice, no???



they dont have to cover huge area like we do

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 AM ----------




AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Plus lets not forget that we posses stealth technology now , and likely Block 3 JF17 thunder will be highly coated stealthy Thunders
> 
> AESA
> Stealthy features
> New Engines
> 
> Will certainly make JF17 thunders a solid platform for future , and we don't necessarily need a 100 million over price plane called Euro fighter
> 
> 
> Stealth Alloy and metal composition secrets right here



just another wanna be


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## Markus

Rafale will be really a tough nut to crack for the PAF.

Based on technical characteristics that are in public domain, I am afraid none of the J-10 series will be much effective against the Rafale. 

J-20 is a diff. ball-game but we are not sure how many of them will make it to PAF.

The air power was in India's favour and with Rafale it will increase exponentially.


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

cb4 said:


> Using big weapons is a big thing and having experience is another. How well is India prepared to strike Pak? We have been waiting for years now....
> The fact is since the 80s, there hasn't been a proper war. Pakistan uses mujahedeen to counter, and India sticks to its original plan to use its forces. On the scale, this wasn't a full face to face confrontation war, but a proxy only.
> Now for us during that period, we have managed to fight and experience Soviets, Afghanis, Americans, and NATO. What is that you have learned that we can't face the reality of facing you?
> Having faced all superpowers, and we will find you a joke.



We have learned to grow our economy. Since 80's you have gained experience fighting soviets, afghans, USA (huh?) and NATO (huh again) but by doing this you have put the well being of your country and its economy in the toilet. That is precisely why you have limited options in purchasing these arms and are solely dependent on what China chooses to donate/sell to you on deferred payments.

I guess your continuous wait for us to strike at you has done more harm to you than any of our strikes would have done. Guess that works pretty well for us. Isn't it?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I see a major Transformation in Pakistan Airforce by 2014-2015

450 New fighters (incoming J17 Thunders, F16 C/D and F16 MLU , J10B)
8-15 AWACs
Option for 100 more fighters 
Air to Air refuelers 
BVR 


Lets not completely forget that we might also get F16 fighters from Norway if need be 
We really don't need , Hornets - Rafale or Typhoon or Rain 

Our Requirements are

a) Locally produced ground to air defence missile system long range 
b) Settelites 
c) Submarines


As for economy that will automatically heal once USA leaves Afghanistan we are doing ok

Compare to where we were in 1990 we are 1000% better shape


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## jackyy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I see a major Transformation in Pakistan Airforce by 2014-2015
> 
> 450 New fighters (incoming J17 Thunders, F16 C/D and F16 MLU , J10B)
> 8-15 AWACs
> Option for 100 more fighters
> Air to Air refuelers
> BVR
> 
> 
> Lets not completely forget that we might also get F16 fighters from Norway if need be



you can also get PAK FA before 2015

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## Awesome

Stay the course.

JF-17, J-10 and J-20

In that order, slow and steady progression.

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## rajnikant

Windjammer said:


> You can be sure as hell, one of the parameter by the IAF was no confidence in single engine jets, hence you never see the likes of MiG-21s/27s, Mirage-2000 or even the Tejas for republic day fly past.  Is that why you are still perusing the several decades old LCA dream,* alas, poor innovations can not be nurtured. *



neither the poor economy and rotten mindsets windy....go enjoy ur thunder till it last..and spare us from vocab diarrhea..which you seems to enjoy ..and sometime I think that you post just to test that only..without any logic...but with only one motive to derail the thread...

OTOH...I m loving it...Rafale


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## regular

jackyy said:


> you can also get PAK FA before 2015


Yeah! we can definitely get them too ...but I guess we don't need them......


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## shuntmaster

Asim Aquil said:


> Stay the course.
> 
> JF-17, J-10 and J-20
> 
> In that order, slow and steady progression.



whatever happens, Pakistan's disadvantage vis-a-vis India with regards to geography will not change. 
After 9/11 Pakistan can say good-bye to the strategic depth doctrine in Afghanistan.


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## jackyy

regular said:


> Yeah! we can definitely get them too ...but I guess we don't need them......


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## Kazhugu

why is everyone thinking that raffy is for pak border....one or two squadrons might be based on air bases on western front...but the majority of the fighters will be geared towards the threat from north-eastern border....none of the aircradts that pakistan possess warrants a fighter like rafale to counter....the (heavily) upgraded fulcrums, mirages and sukhois can easily handle anything pak throws at india now or in the future...

so imo pak doesn't need to do anything...

the long game for iaf is not paf...but rather plaaf...


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## Awesome

shuntmaster said:


> whatever happens, Pakistan's disadvantage vis-a-vis India with regards to geography will not change.
> After 9/11 Pakistan can say good-bye to the strategic depth doctrine in Afghanistan.



I don't think India's decision is a solid one either and I don't see any timetables being met as well (lets face it till now none were met as well).

Indications are that the French were the lower bidders, which further indicates that the Indian financial crises played its role. The amount of INR that it would have cost India has exponentially increased since the rupee devalued. Moreover we still don't know if the Rafale can even take on the Su-30 MKI. 

Pakistan needs to continue on its path of upgrading JF-17s and then moving to J-10s and J-20s.

I didn't quite understand the relevance of your Afghanistan comment.


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## deckingraj

jackyy said:


> they dont have to cover huge area like we do




What do you mean??? Defensive force doesn't mean zero offense, no???


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## TOPGUN

This has to be one of the biggest or the biggest troll/hater fest ever on pdf i was going to comment but i won't even bother you guys that are trolling and hating are pathetic simply.


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## mautkimaut

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't think India's decision is a solid one either and I don't see any timetables being met as well (lets face it till now none were met as well).
> 
> Indications are that the French were the lower bidders, which further indicates that the Indian financial crises played its role. The amount of INR that it would have cost India has exponentially increased since the rupee devalued. Moreover we still don't know if the Rafale can even take on the Su-30 MKI.
> 
> Pakistan needs to continue on its path of upgrading JF-17s and then moving to J-10s and J-20s.
> 
> I didn't quite understand the relevance of your Afghanistan comment.



I would say skip J-10 and go for J-20.

Since India is not waging any war, it will be better if you guys wait for a few years and go for J-20.
Rafale is for ground strike and should be a good match for MKI.

IT is not going to face the MKI but JF-17 and F-16, which i think it will be able to handle.


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## deckingraj

Kazhugu said:


> why is everyone thinking that raffy is for pak border....one or two squadrons might be based on air bases on western front...but the majority of the fighters will be geared towards the threat from north-eastern border....none of the aircradts that pakistan possess warrants a fighter like rafale to counter....the (heavily) upgraded fulcrums, mirages and sukhois can easily handle anything pak throws at india now or in the future...
> 
> so imo pak doesn't need to do anything...
> 
> the long game for iaf is not paf...but rather plaaf...



Comon!!!...this point has been explained many times right in this thread..please do your homework before posting...something deployed in the east doesn't mean will/should not be used in the west if push comes to shove...


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## Kazhugu

Asim Aquil said:


> Indications are that the French were the lower bidders, which further indicates that the Indian financial crises played its role. The amount of INR that it would have cost India has exponentially increased since the rupee devalued. Moreover we still don't know if the Rafale can even take on the Su-30 MKI.



hold on....how does rafale being the lowest bidder indicate indian financial crisis...?and i think you are not following news..the rupee is back to the 49/dollar and is expected to rise even more...

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## jackyy

deckingraj said:


> What do you mean??? Defensive force doesn't mean zero offense, no???



you are correct buddy
only defense not offense

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

Rest of the 80 fighters may be f-35 to please u.s,soon RFI may be issued


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## Kazhugu

deckingraj said:


> Comon!!!...this point has been explained many times right in this thread..please do your homework before posting...something deployed in the east doesn't mean will/should not be used in the west if push comes to shove...



my post was targeted towards the pakistanis....and honestly this point was raised a couple of times at the max....

yes when push comes to shove the rafales based in east will be used as per op requirements..but my point is that the technological disadvantage caused by the rafale to paf will be insignificant from a pak perspective because there was no equality to start with either...

_when water goes above your head, it doesnt matter if its just an inch or a meter...its the same.._


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## fatman17

Date Posted: 31-Jan-2012 

Rafale chosen as India's MMRCA

Rahul Bedi Correspondent - New Delhi

Gareth Jennings - Aviation Desk Editor - London



Key Points
&#8226;The Dassault Rafale has been chosen as the preferred bidder for India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition

&#8226;The Rafale beat the Eurofighter Typhoon to win a deal that will see the Indian Air Force buy at least 126 aircraft for about USD10.6 billion 

Dassault has been selected as the preferred bidder for the Indian MMRCA fighter procurement programme after its Rafale fighter beat off competition from the Eurofighter Typhoon.


Dassault Aviation's Rafale has bested the Eurofighter Typhoon in the contest to supply the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), it was announced on 31 January in New Delhi. The decision marks the first export order for the type. 

Official sources said representatives of the two aircraft were summoned to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and told that the Rafale had been selected as it was the lowest bidder, or L1. No details of the bids were available but sources indicated that Dassault's price was about 15-17 per cent less than Eurofighter's. 

Unconfirmed sources, quoting senior officials, said that the Rafale was around USD5 million cheaper than the Typhoon per aircraft.

Defence Minister A K Antony said no deal would be signed before the end of March. "It is a long process. The file has not come to my table," said Antony, adding that the Finance Ministry and a Cabinet panel headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh also had to examine the contract terms. 

MoD officials told Jane's that a final round of price negotiations with Dassault would follow during the next few weeks to finalise the contract and that the deal, estimated at more than USD10.4 billion, would be signed sometime in the financial year beginning in April. 

The Rafale's final cost, however, is expected to rise above the MoD's sanctioned USD10.4 billion figure as it will be determined by benchmarking against its global market sale price. Dassault will also be required to defray 50 per cent of the total contract value in local offsets, largely in the military sector. 

According to the contract terms, 18 Rafales will be acquired in fly-away condition within 36 months of the deal being signed. The remaining 108 will be built locally by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. The final contract will also offer the IAF the option to acquire an additional 75-80 Rafales, raising the total number to more than 200. 

Senior IAF officials said the Rafale would complement the IAF's 51 Dassault Mirage 2000H fighters presently being upgraded by Dassault-Thales-MBDA to the Mirage 2000-5 standard. 

"The Rafale is a technologically sound 4.5-generation fighter that has adequately proved its omni-role capability in the recent Libyan campaign," retired Air Marshal V K Bhatia said. "It will more than meet the IAF's requirements over the coming decades." 

Following the announcement, French President Nicolas Sarkozy issued a statement, saying: "France is pleased with the Indian government's decision to select the French aircraft [and] to enter into exclusive negotiations with Dassault. 

"The Rafale has been selected thanks to the aircraft's competitive life-cycle costs, after the April 2011 pre-selection on the basis of its top-level operational performance. The negotiation of the contract will begin very soon and has the full support of the French authorities. 

"It will include important technology transfers guaranteed by the French government. The realisation of the Rafale project will illustrate the depth and scale of the strategic partnership between France and India." 

When asked to respond to the decision, an India-based official from EADS, the German partner in Eurofighter that led the Typhoon bid in India, told Janes : "We lost, they won; it's all over." In an official statement, Eurofighter said that, while it is disappointed with the outcome, it respects the decision of the Indian MoD. 

"Based on the Indian government feedback, we will now carefully analyse and evaluate this situation together with our European partner companies and their respective governments," the official added. 

The Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted in April 2011 from an original MMRCA contest that featured the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Saab JAS 39 Gripen and United Aircraft Corporation MiG-35. 


COMMENT 
India's decision to procure the Rafale came as a surprise to many industry observers who had predicted the Typhoon's greater industrial base and superior combat capabilities would win the day for the international fighter aircraft. 

However, it is worth noting that, despite the repeated assertions that the Typhoon was ahead in the race, it had consistently been recognised that the Rafale was the more affordable of the two platforms, both in terms of unit price and support costs. 

Throughout the selection process, the IAF said that the competition would be weighted towards the cheapest platform. The Rafale's selection, therefore, should not be regarded as being quite so unexpected. 

Technically speaking, the competition between the Typhoon and Rafale was finely poised, with both platforms being highly capable and combat proven. While the Typhoon has superior performance statistics and a long-term upgrade path mapped out, the Rafale has an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar already in place and operational. 

In addition, the Rafale is a carrier-capable platform, whereas the Typhoon is not; Eurofighter had offered to developed a maritime variant of the Typhoon had it secured the Indian contract. While the MMRCA programme has no naval component to it, interoperability between the air force and navy was seen to be an advantage over the long term. 

In terms of industrial relationships between the competing companies and India, Dassault had already sold it Mirage 2000 fighter to the IAF and had recently signed a contract to upgrade these platforms. Dassault's longstanding relationship with the Indian Ministry of Defence may have gone a long way to securing the Rafale deal. 

While Dassault built on the already-strong ties it has with India, Eurofighter instead opted to pursue a completely contrary approach, whereby the German member of the consortium - EADS - was charged with leading the bid despite having no history in the country. Many felt that the consortium's UK partner - BAE Systems - would have been the more obvious choice given the strong historical ties that already exist between the two countries. 

With the Indian MMRCA competition now seemingly over, Eurofighter has to hope that the projected Typhoon sale to Oman materialises, and that ongoing competitions in markets such as Malaysia, Qatar and South Korea yield better results to secure the aircraft's production run. 

For Dassault, securing the Rafale's first export order might just be the springboard it needs as it looks to win future orders in Brazil, the United Arab Emirates and elsewhere.

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## deckingraj

Asim Aquil said:


> Indications are that the French were the lower bidders, which further indicates that the Indian financial crises played its role.



What financial crisis??? We shortlisted two planes and then went for the lowest bidder...which is logical...From where did you bring in this financial crisis???



> The amount of INR that it would have cost India has exponentially increased since the rupee devalued.



The dollar moved up to 54 and is now back to 49....So not sure what devaluation you are talking about...b/w talk in terms of real money and not nominal money(inflation adjusted amount...)




> Moreover we still don't know if the Rafale can even take on the Su-30 MKI.


What does Rafael has to do with MKI???

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I am sure these planes will do good once they join Indian airforce in 2020


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## deckingraj

Kazhugu said:


> my post was targeted towards the pakistanis....and honestly this point was raised a couple of times at the max....


Couple of times?? I don't think so...b/w what's the fun in raising same thing again and again especially when it has been debunked???...



> yes when push comes to shove the rafales based in east will be used as per op requirements..but my point is that the technological disadvantage caused by the rafale to paf will be insignificant from a pak perspective because there was no equality to start with either...



Now you are making absurd comments...IN is no match for PLAN, so shall we stop worrying about it??? Keep in minf PAF doctrine is defensive and fighters complemeted with AWACS on the home turf can negate certain benefits that better planes provide...PAF has to be fool to ignore this new acquisition thinking that they are already dead....




> _when water goes above your head, it doesn't matter if its just an inch or a meter...its the same.._



It does matter because when help comes it will take more time to rescue you if you are deep down vs just few inches...no???


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## gubbi

fatman17 said:


> "The Rafale has been selected thanks to the aircraft's competitive life-cycle costs, *after the April 2011 pre-selection on the basis of its top-level operational performance*. The negotiation of the contract will begin very soon and has the full support of the French authorities.
> 
> 
> Throughout the selection process, t*he IAF said that the competition would be weighted towards the cheapest platform*. The Rafale's selection, therefore, should not be regarded as being quite so unexpected.



Both those comments contradict each other. If IAF and GoI were to go for the 'cheapest' platform, Gripen NG and MiG-35 would beat any of the other contenders hands down.

IAf was first given the go ahead to short list the best platforms for its requirements. When the competition narrowed down to Rafale and Eurofighter - both very expensive platforms among the 6 contenders, it was then that MOD stepped in to select the lowest bidder - among those two. Rafale won.

I dont understand why people are making such a big deal about 'cheaper platform'?

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## Hu Jintao

Todays biggest weapon is gorilla warfare even US is scared of this form(with such technology)

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## gubbi

Hu Jintao said:


> Todays biggest weapon is *gorilla warfare* even US is scared of this form(with such technology)



You talking about this?

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## S10

Hu Jintao said:


> Todays biggest weapon is *gorilla warfare* even US is scared of this form(with such technology)













Do tell.

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## Bl[i]tZ

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't think India's decision is a solid one either and I don't see any timetables being met as well (lets face it till now none were met as well).
> 
> Indications are that the French were the lower bidders, which further indicates that the Indian financial crises played its role. The amount of INR that it would have cost India has exponentially increased since the rupee devalued. Moreover we still don't know if the Rafale can even take on the Su-30 MKI



India's Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) had two steps.

1. Technical qualifications - Find out which fighters meet IAF's 643 specifications the most. American, Russian and Swedish jets thrown out the window. Also, explain to the people thrown out, what specifications there fighters didn't meet.

2. Get the lowest bidder among the fighters down selected from step 1.

This makes the system transparent and removes any chances of corruption. That is why Indian DPP is so lengthy and time consuming.

As for India unable to afford it. Tthe $10.4 billion was sanctioned in 2007, this deal will be signed in the financial year 2012-13.

India's GDP was $1.25 trillion in 2007, India's GDP was 1.73 trillion in 2010-11. We will grow at 7-7.5% due to the slowdown this year, that means, considering worst case of 7% GDP growth, at the end of this year our GDP will be $1.85 trillion. Are you sure the value of $10 billion going to even $20 billion is a real big deal?  Also, the cost will be spread over years anyway.

World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer

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## deckingraj

gubbi said:


> I dont understand why people are making such a big deal about 'cheaper platform'?



Its ironical we are spending a whopping amount of $18billion(approx) and yet people are talking about cheap/financial crisis???

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## saiyan0321

nice i leave yesterday thinking an informative thread now i come i see 19 pages and its become pakistan vs india cmon just congrats them and stick the topic options for paf which would be j10 and j20 but first remake the entire fleet with jf17 and to those who are saying they will not be used against pakistan tell me this if by some chance pakistan goes deep in and is near delhi you wont use them against pak army to kick them out in war you use everything....... and its not like with this purchase its decided we cant do anything we just have to be calm stick to the plan as the plan is the best we have get the fleet changed from us f16 to better jf17 and then go for j10 and so on slowly and steadily

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## KRAIT

deckingraj said:


> Its ironical we are spending a whopping amount of $18billion(approx) and yet people are talking about cheap/financial crisis???


 Every contestant praised the evaluation procedure of IAF. I don't think India made a shady deal to go for Rafale.


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## saiyan0321

> @topic- Every contestant praised the evaluation procedure of IAF. I don't think India made a shady deal to go for Rafale.



its fine its your defence needs you guys know better if you got the money go for it.

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## Hu Jintao

gubbi said:


> You talking about this?



LOL 
Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare and refers to conflicts in which a small group of combatants including, but not limited to, armed civilians (or "irregulars") use military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to harass a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately.





---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------


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## KRAIT

saiyan0321 said:


> its fine its your defence needs you guys know better if you got the money go for it.


I don't understand why my countrymen are thinking that this deal will create a huge difference between IAF and PAF. It will occur with FGFA/AMCA coz PAF will be gaining enough capability to handle Super Sukhoi, MMRCA, LCA Mk II etc.


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## Kazhugu

deckingraj said:


> Now you are making absurd comments...IN is no match for PLAN, so shall we stop worrying about it??? Keep in minf PAF doctrine is defensive and fighters complemeted with AWACS on the home turf can negate certain benefits that better planes provide...PAF has to be fool to ignore this new acquisition thinking that they are already dead....



Absurd..?!

you are comparing airwar scenario on a land border with a ocean scenario thousands of miles away from each other bases..?

IN is no match for PLAN only on the other side of the malaccas..on this side...atleast now, IN can successfully thwart any attempt by PLAN...

yes PAF doctrine is defensive..but it doesnt mean much....*what im saying is rafale will be a big deal only if the purchase of it tilts the balance of power towards iaf...but thats not the case...the balance of power is already lopsided in favour of iaf with upgradation of mirages, fulcrums and the presence of mkis along with our own AWACs...*

its only on the eastern border will the presence of rafale make a crucial difference to our own defensive capabilities...




deckingraj said:


> It does matter because when help comes it will take more time to rescue you if you are deep down vs just few inches...no???


 
oh well..that was a proverb....whose meaning was not be taken literally...but the basic point is it doesnt matter what paf does...the tech difference is too large and will only increase...

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## Edevelop

What is Rafale comparable with? Rather than comparing it in xyz thread, i would like to know which fighters are in its class. For sure, Eurofighter is one, because obliviously it was undecidable by IAF. I am guessing, F-15,F-18, Mig-35, Su-30, J-11, and J-10 are excellent and they should be and must be in it's class.


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## Black Widow

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't think India's decision is a solid one either and I don't see any timetables being met as well (lets face it till now none were met as well).
> 
> Indications are that the French were the lower bidders, which further indicates that the Indian financial crises played its role. The amount of INR that it would have cost India has exponentially increased since the rupee devalued. Moreover we still don't know if the Rafale can even take on the Su-30 MKI.
> 
> Pakistan needs to continue on its path of upgrading JF-17s and then moving to J-10s and J-20s.
> 
> I didn't quite understand the relevance of your Afghanistan comment.




Rupee value can improve also in next few years. Its not Indian financial crisis. Both palnes were equaly capable, Lowest bidder would got it (I think this is how tenders work , Let me know if it work other way round in Pakistan). 

@Afghanistan: even I didn't uinderstand his comment.

@Rafeal and MKI: Bothe are different role fighetr in IAF so don't compatre them.


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## deckingraj

Kazhugu said:


> Absurd..?!you are comparing airwar scenario on a land border with a ocean scenario thousands of miles away from each other bases..?


What i am trying to tell you is that irrespective of what your adversary is fielding you need to keep thinking of ways to counter the attack well within your limits...you cannot simply say who cares, we are dead so let them do what they want...



> IN is no match for PLAN only on the other side of the malaccas..on this side...atleast now, IN can successfully thwart any attempt by PLAN...



Exactly and why is this so??? bcoz IN will play defensive should a war beak out with China...IN can not play offensive in this context and thus can outmatch a much larger navy...Do you see the analogy???



> yes PAF doctrine is defensive..but it doesnt mean much....*what im saying is rafale will be a big deal only if the purchase of it tilts the balance of power towards iaf...but thats not the case...the balance of power is already lopsided in favour of iaf with upgradation of mirages, fulcrums and the presence of mkis along with our own AWACs...*


What you are not getting is the proverb that i used in counter to yours...As said due to Awacs and home ground benefits for PAF, IAF fighters are going to loose some key benefits..This is an important point and cannot be ignored...In fact if you are talking about relative positions then PAF capabilities are improving viz-a-viz IAF especially in the last 5-7 years...There was a time when they had no BVR capable plane and now they have around 500 BVRAAMS which are second to none...Like us they also have got AWACS which may be less capable then ours but good enough for their requirements...In fact that is a good example to bring in a message - A less capable machine can solve the purpose in certain context...I hope you get my point...



> its only on the eastern border will the presence of rafale make a crucial difference to our own defensive capabilities...



You are right...However if rafaels are good for PLAAF then they surely are good for PAF as well...They will add to already sorry(because of money constraints) saga for PAF...The parity differnce that PAF managed to tilt somewhat in their side after a big gap of 90's will again move towards India...It is very important that in tough times an adversary must do whatever it can to not allow the parity to go away for good...otherwise when good times come there will not be any chance to bring back the status quo....




> oh well..that was a proverb....whose meaning was not be taken literally...but the basic point is it doesnt matter what paf does...the tech difference is too large and will only increase...


And mine was one too...Don't take it literally...My point is that this situation is there bcoz of only one reason...Bad economy....Once Pakistan economy improves things will improve there too...Thus it is important to keep hanging in there...


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## Arsalan

Congrats to the Indian Fellows. Rafael is without doubt a nice high tech platform. 
However, I am just bit surprised that the EF and SU-35 that were the prime heroes till yesterday, and were the best in the world, how the suddenly got second to Rafael overnight in the humble opinion os some of respectable Indian members

Wow
What a change of fate for the Rafael!!!
No its the Best!!!

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## Arsalan

and yes, selection of Rafael is good for US as well.
it will be easier to answer the Rafael factor then it would have been to tackle the EF.
EF is no doubt much better then any of the bidders in MMRCA tender.
i guess there were some kick back or financial constrain involved as well in selection of Rafael

the new J-10B will be a good match for this western platform.

even the upgraded JFT with AESA and better engine will be a good competition!!
i agree there is some time in getting JFT with AESA but then again, there is also time in IAF getting good number of Rafael!!

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## gubbi

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Congrats to the Indian Fellows. *Rafael* is without doubt a nice high tech platform.
> However, I am just bit surprised that the EF and SU-35 that were the prime heroes till yesterday, and were the best in the world, how the suddenly got second to Rafael overnight in the humble opinion os some of respectable Indian members
> 
> Wow
> What a change of fate for the *Rafael*!!!
> No it&#8217;s the Best!!!



Thanks. But its Dassault* Rafale*.

*Rafael* Advanced Defense Systems ltd. is the Israeli defense tech company.

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## prabhakar

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Congrats to the Indian Fellows. Rafael is without doubt a nice high tech platform.
> However, I am just bit surprised that the EF and SU-35 that were the prime heroes till yesterday, and were the best in the world, how the suddenly got second to Rafael overnight in the humble opinion os some of respectable Indian members
> 
> Wow
> What a change of fate for the Rafael!!!
> No its the Best!!!


 

We never said anything ... Su 35 is rejected long back..wake up dude...

And there was rumors going on about EF ..so hold your horses and try to analyse it objectively... and not like an internet warrior.

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## ziaulislam

first
from 1947 to till now IAF has always operated generation ahead of aircrafts from the PAF(except perhaps in 80s when we got f-16s but even then we had f-6s and they mig21). PAF has never been able to get superiority over IAF it had lagged in 1/3 both in number and quality
*infact thunders are better as they are atleast in same generation as rafale. with IRST and AESA may be equal to it.*

second what indians are doing is that they aare comparing aircrafts capability to their price!?..i mean rafale are best because they are expensive then f-16s,j-10s,gripen or fact that they are four times better as thunder are 3 to four times cheaper? a lame point. we forget to that russian equipment with same capability is half price of western equipments and chinese stuff is even cheaper that russians.


third
j-10s will be definitely in the league of rafale, it will have AESA(infact j-10b already has) 

fourth
this desicion wouldnt change the plans of PAF, as it already knew by 2007 that a new fourth gen aircrft will be inducted in IAF

l

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## Kazhugu

deckingraj said:


> What i am trying to tell you is that irrespective of what your adversary is fielding you need to keep thinking of ways to counter the attack well within your limits...you cannot simply say who cares, we are dead so let them do what they want...
> 
> Exactly and why is this so??? bcoz IN will play defensive should a war beak out with China...IN can not play offensive in this context and thus can outmatch a much larger navy...Do you see the analogy???



its not a correct analogy...because currently IN is the boss this side of the malaccas and can pretty much handle anything the PLAN fields because of lack of logistics of PLAN and andaman and nicobar islands...




deckingraj said:


> What you are not getting is the proverb that i used in counter to yours...As said due to Awacs and home ground benefits for PAF, IAF fighters are going to loose some key benefits..This is an important point and cannot be ignored...In fact if you are talking about relative positions then PAF capabilities are improving viz-a-viz IAF especially in the last 5-7 years...There was a time when they had no BVR capable plane and now they have around 500 BVRAAMS which are second to none...Like us they also have got AWACS which may be less capable then ours but good enough for their requirements...In fact that is a good example to bring in a message - A less capable machine can solve the purpose in certain context...I hope you get my point...
> 
> You are right...However if rafaels are good for PLAAF then they surely are good for PAF as well...They will add to already sorry(because of money constraints) saga for PAF...The parity differnce that PAF managed to tilt somewhat in their side after a big gap of 90's will again move towards India...It is very important that in tough times an adversary must do whatever it can to not allow the parity to go away for good...otherwise when good times come there will not be any chance to bring back the status quo....
> 
> And mine was one too...Don't take it literally...My point is that this situation is there bcoz of only one reason...Bad economy....Once Pakistan economy improves things will improve there too...Thus it is important to keep hanging in there...



well never mind..you seem not to be getting what im trying to say....the rafale is not the gamechanger in the indo-pak air war balance...it was the MKI that claimed the honors....while rafale can yet claim it in the Eastern front....


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## farhan_9909

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and yes, selection of Rafael is good for US as well.
> it will be easier to answer the Rafael factor then it would have been to tackle the EF.
> EF is no doubt much better then any of the bidders in MMRCA tender.
> i guess there were some kick back or financial constrain involved as well in selection of Rafael
> 
> the new J-10B will be a good match for this western platform.
> 
> even the upgraded JFT with AESA and better engine will be a good competition!!
> i agree there is some time in getting JFT with AESA but then again, there is also time in IAF getting good number of Rafael!!



yarr i amv ery happy they selected rafale instead of EFT

j-10B against EFT wasnt a good option

bt j-10B if the AESA,IRST,and the proposed ws-10G come true than it can giev a tough competition to rafale as well as it can fight head to head with rafale

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## ziaulislam

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and yes, selection of Rafael is good for US as well.
> it will be easier to answer the Rafael factor then it would have been to tackle the EF.
> EF is no doubt much better then any of the bidders in MMRCA tender.
> i guess there were some kick back or financial constrain involved as well in selection of Rafael
> 
> the new J-10B will be a good match for this western platform.
> 
> even the upgraded JFT with AESA and better engine will be a good competition!!
> i agree there is some time in getting JFT with AESA but then again, there is also time in IAF getting good number of Rafael!!


true j-10B with AESA, IRST and advance avionics will definitely be match for any fourth gen aircrft. chinese have mtured their avionics to level to work on fifth gen aircrfts

people do talk about thunders engine but to be honest we should look at t/w ratio rather and thunder with nearly one(0.97-1.01) is at par with any jet. it only makes it short legged and low carrying capacity but thunder was suppose to be like this to decrease its operational costs
well established aircrafts like mirages2000 had a much lower T/w ratio than either F-16s or thunders..
in short RD-93 is suffcient for PAF needs..i think only issue is its life which is quiet short as compared to western ones

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## rockstarIN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Congrats to the Indian Fellows. Rafael is without doubt a nice high tech platform.
> However, I am just bit surprised that the EF and SU-35 that were the prime heroes till yesterday, and were the best in the world, how the suddenly got second to Rafael overnight in the humble opinion os some of respectable Indian members
> 
> Wow
> What a change of fate for the Rafael!!!
> No it&#8217;s the Best!!!



If you go to the poll section in Rafale Vs EF, you can see most preferred one is Rafale (though I voted for EF)

Means, there is no first and second, only lowest bidder...

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------




ziaulislam said:


> first
> from 1947 to till now IAF has always operated generation ahead of aircrafts from the PAF(except perhaps in 80s when we got f-16s but even then we had f-6s and they mig21). PAF has never been able to get superiority over IAF it had lagged in 1/3 both in number and quality
> *infact thunders are better as they are atleast in same generation as rafale. with IRST and AESA may be equal to it.*
> 
> second what indians are doing is that they aare comparing aircrafts capability to their price!?..i mean rafale are best because they are expensive then f-16s,j-10s,gripen or fact that they are four times better as thunder are 3 to four times cheaper? a lame point. we forget to that russian equipment with same capability is half price of western equipments and chinese stuff is even cheaper that russians.
> 
> 
> third
> j-10s will be definitely in the league of rafale, it will have AESA(infact j-10b already has)
> 
> fourth
> this desicion wouldnt change the plans of PAF, as it already knew by 2007 that a new fourth gen aircrft will be inducted in IAF
> 
> l



And you guys tell it is hilarious when we compare Mig-21 Bison to JF-17 uh?

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## Arsalan

prabhakar said:


> We never said anything ... Su 35 is rejected long back..wake up dude...
> 
> And there was rumors going on about EF ..so hold your horses and try to analyse it objectively... and not like an internet warrior.



hey, no one is being internet warrior. an i never pointed you out.

i totally agree to the fact that rafale is no doubt a good machine.
only pointing to the fact that a few months back, it was not THE BEST!!!

anyway, no objeections!!


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## imiakhtar

fatman17 said:


> what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?


 
Unless Pakistan has a few billions to spare, the PAF has no options whatsoever.

I see Pakistan adding a few more EDA F-16 aircraft from the US and at a stretch the J-10. Though even then, on a qualitative level, they'd be no match for the rafale.


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## farhan_9909

not to forgot that the best variant of ws-10 will be used on j-10B for pakistan

if this is ws-10G than it will make J-10B single engine to produce thrust than rafale twin engines

nodoubt the the speed as well as the payload will increase


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## Arsalan

ziaulislam said:


> true j-10B with AESA, IRST and advance avionics will definitely be match for any fourth gen aircrft. chinese have mtured their avionics to level to work on fifth gen aircrfts
> 
> people do talk about thunders engine but to be honest we should look at t/w ratio rather and thunder with nearly one(0.97-1.01) is at par with any jet. it only makes it short legged and low carrying capacity but thunder was suppose to be like this to decrease its operational costs
> well established aircrafts like mirages2000 had a much lower T/w ratio than either F-16s or thunders..
> in short RD-93 is suffcient for PAF needs..i think only issue is its life which is quiet short as compared to western ones





farhan_9909 said:


> yarr i amv ery happy they selected rafale instead of EFT
> 
> j-10B against EFT wasnt a good option
> 
> bt j-10B if the AESA,IRST,and the proposed ws-10G come true than it can giev a tough competition to rafale as well as it can fight head to head with rafale



very true!
technologically they will be on par.

EF is the best aircraft after the 5th generation aircrafts!
what they call,, 4.5 ++..
rafale, no doubt a high tech paltform is of the same league as J-10B.
EF would have given the idian a real technology edge.

i talked to a friend on mine who is aeronautical engineer and working at PAC, as per him and there analysis, rafale, F-18 and Su-35 would have been counterded by the J-10-B.

For Gripen they were looking positively toward the JFT next blocks 

EF was one hell of a beast PAF seemd a little concerned about.

much more then any of the rest.

its good IAF is getting Rafale!

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## farhan_9909

ws-10G is a variant of ws-10 with 155kn thrust.
Rafale vs J-10B
both are medium weight fighter
both will have aesa bt J-10B has at present
J-10A carry 6ton payload.J-10B with higher thrust engine as well as aerodynamics changes will allow it to carry 8ton or more
J-10B will have 5th gen avionics as it is already a tested for J-20 avionics.Rafale has spectra no doubt very good
rafale(150kn max thrust twin engine) J-10B(ws-13Btvc+134kn thrust or ws-10G tvc+155kn)PAF will choose the best so ws-10G 155kn thrust
J-10B will have a slighter higher twr ratio..bt even the J-10A is more manouverible than Rafale.J-10B will be more
rafale range is 3700km and J-10B 3400km

so J-10B and Rafale both are from same league while EFT was a class apart.

J-10B can easily answer to Rafale in future.bt now we need to atleast increase the plan from 36 to 100.

As a side note

*thanks to MOD of india for doing this.*
beside this pak wasnt going to purchase any arms from france in future.the possible purchase we could do from EU was from Italy(avionics for j-10B-JFT) and IRIS-T WVR from Germany..and i am sure even now we have those option in our hand

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## deckingraj

Kazhugu said:


> its not a correct analogy...because currently IN is the boss this side of the malaccas and can pretty much handle anything the PLAN fields because of lack of logistics of PLAN and andaman and nicobar islands...



You are not getting my point...The analogy is not about who is the boss...The analogy is that when it comes to defenses a much depleted force can take on a better armed adversary in *certain context*...The way IN can take on a mighty PLAN in her own backyard, PAF can also hold its ground viz-a-viz IAF in her own backyard(i ahve given reason how in previous post)...Having said that you must have heard about the lost decade of PAF....this is the time period when IAF introduced MKI's and bring in BVR capability...In last 5-7 years PAF has worked very hard to bridge in the parity...Now in terms of capability they have almost everything what we have....However when it comes to quantity fielding the above said capability we beat them hands down...Now with Rafael in picture we are again moving leaps and bounds in that context and thus their headache increases....



> well never mind..you seem not to be getting what im trying to say....the rafale is not the gamechanger in the indo-pak air war balance...it was the MKI that claimed the honors....while rafale can yet claim it in the Eastern front....



Now there are some serious flaws in your assertion...let me point them..

a) I never said Rafael is a game changer...It is you who is saying that Rafael does not change anything...It is this point i am debating against...
b) MKI was a game changer in 90's and early 2000...However since then PAF has worked hard to bridge in the gap with whatever limited means they had....Their first move was to bring in the capability...F16 Block 52 with BVRAAMS and Eyrie awacs were the first step in this regard... Investment in JF17 is another move...
c) Now consider a JF17 having an AESA radar loaded with BVRAAM using Eyrie awac to fire a salvo at MKI...See how a paltry JF17 can become a potent challenge for MKI??? This is the future that PAF is hoping for....

So to conclude if i talk about today then PAF do have all what we have in store...Where they are missing is the respective number of Fighters they have 4-4.5 generation capabilities....This difference is pathetic...which they would have manged to plug with their acquisitions in future...but now that problem has increased manifolds...

Just to give you some food for thought...Rafael's are first going to be deployed in our western border before eastern border gets its attention...May be it can give you some more insight into what i am trying to convey...

P.S : Let me clarify IMHO India's decision of MMRCA was certainly keeping China in mind(actually as per IAF they are not being adversary specific but capability specific which imho is an ideal thing to do)...but that doesn't mean PAF does not need to worry about it...


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and yes, selection of Rafael is good for US as well.
> it will be easier to answer the Rafael factor then it would have been to tackle the EF.
> EF is no doubt much better then any of the bidders in MMRCA tender.
> i guess there were some kick back or *financial constrain involved as well in selection of Rafael*
> 
> the new J-10B will be a good match for this western platform.
> 
> even the upgraded JFT with AESA and better engine will be a good competition!!
> i agree there is some time in getting JFT with AESA but then again, there is also time in IAF getting good number of Rafael!!



Mr Opinionator,

I really don't know whether you said that because of ignorance or some obvious genuine reasons.I think the post below may help you out. 




Bl[i]tZ;2549146 said:


> India's Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) had two steps.
> 
> 1. Technical qualifications - Find out which fighters meet IAF's 643 specifications the most. American, Russian and Swedish jets thrown out the window. Also, explain to the people thrown out, what specifications there fighters didn't meet.
> 
> 2. Get the lowest bidder among the fighters down selected from step 1.
> 
> This makes the system transparent and removes any chances of corruption. That is why Indian DPP is so lengthy and time consuming.
> 
> As for India unable to afford it. Tthe $10.4 billion was sanctioned in 2007, this deal will be signed in the financial year 2012-13.
> 
> India's GDP was $1.25 trillion in 2007, India's GDP was 1.73 trillion in 2010-11. We will grow at 7-7.5% due to the slowdown this year, that means, considering worst case of 7% GDP growth, at the end of this year our GDP will be $1.85 trillion. Are you sure the value of $10 billion going to even $20 billion is a real big deal?  Also, the cost will be spread over years anyway.
> 
> World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer


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## Arsalan

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Mr Opinionator,
> 
> I really don't know whether you said that because of ignorance or some obvious genuine reasons.I think the post below may help you out.



well Mr. ??? what ever your name is,,
my name is Arsalan!
i m not here for tags n ranks!

yes, your post was helpful, thanks!

Mind going through the old IAF MMRCA threads!
you will find what i was saying!


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## Big Boss

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Something to remember here is that *'net-centricity' *works to the advantage of both sides, if both sides are pursuing it. Pakistan's investments in the Swedish and Chinese AEW&C's, along with the work done and being done on linking all of its air assets to a C4 system, would largely negate the 'radar range advantage' that larger Indian fighters possess, since 'detection of an Indian air threat and relaying that information to PAF fighter jets' would be done initially through the AEW&C's - the same is true on the Indian side - Indian AWACs would detect the PAF long before the MMRCA or Sukhois would.
> 
> And when one side or the other has enemy AC detection, a whole range of factors, systems and processes come into play, both local to the fighter jets as well as the supporting systems. Fighter based ECM, AWACs based ECM, missile range and performance, ground based countermeasures etc. etc. etc.
> 
> So even with a fleet comprised mainly of the JF-17, equipped with advanced SRAAMs, MRAAMs and LRAAM's and ECCM suites, the MMRCA+Sukhoi Indian threat is not the 'END ALL HUGE ADVANTAGE' that some are trying to paint it as, from both sides of the border.


 
1. By above post it looks like PAF can face any force or whole world in defensive mode but that's not the reality. 

2. And for net centric warfare the most important requirement are:

a.) Dedicated communication satellite which PAF don't have IAF will have by 2014.

What will PAf will do if communication is cut off.

b.) Dedicated spy satellite which PAF don't have but IAF have. 

3. You are not ignoring:

a.) Dependance on USA for spares etc.

b.) Kill switch in F 16s

c.) Blinding of PAF by USA through denial of GPS as they have done it in Iraq.


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## A1Kaid

To be honest not much can be done about this unless Pakistan acquires good governance and attains economic progress for at least a decade. The single factor that is preventing military modernization in the PM is finance, until that important criteria can be met the forces level of progress will remain stagnate, and of course that is no progress at all.

Though, if we are talking about war, there are still operations that can be done to neutralize some of this threat, they will have to be more extreme. Though, I don't have full trust and confidence in the PM leadership's skill, so I cannot give them the benefit of the doubt in war.

Though it is important to remember an attack is not imminent nor more likely to occur because of this procurement.


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## Big Boss

farhan_9909 said:


> ws-10G is a variant of ws-10 with 155kn thrust.
> Rafale vs J-10B
> both are medium weight fighter
> both will have aesa bt J-10B has at present
> J-10A carry 6ton payload.J-10B with higher thrust engine as well as aerodynamics changes will allow it to carry 8ton or more
> J-10B will have 5th gen avionics as it is already a tested for J-20 avionics.Rafale has spectra no doubt very good
> rafale(150kn max thrust twin engine) J-10B(ws-13Btvc+134kn thrust or ws-10G tvc+155kn)PAF will choose the best so ws-10G 155kn thrust
> J-10B will have a slighter higher twr ratio..bt even the J-10A is more manouverible than Rafale.J-10B will be more
> rafale range is 3700km and J-10B 3400km
> 
> so J-10B and Rafale both are from same league while EFT was a class apart.
> 
> J-10B can easily answer to Rafale in future.bt now we need to atleast increase the plan from 36 to 100.
> 
> As a side note
> 
> *thanks to MOD of india for doing this.*
> beside this pak wasnt going to purchase any arms from france in future.the possible purchase we could do from EU was from Italy(avionics for j-10B-JFT) and IRIS-T WVR from *Germany*..and i am sure even now we have those option in our hand



I don't know you have info of *over US$ 10 billion* contract for next generation submarines by Indian Navy.

What if India decides for HDW submarines from *Germany*?

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## Stealth

*Question Mark on Policy makers of PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES ....

Stop lame excuses about Money and Training! We have much better economy thn India in 2004-2006 and we have much better time as compare to India to fullfill our requirements ... WHAT OUR ARMED FORCES GENERALS, NAVAL HEADS and AIRFORCES LEADERAAAN Doing ????? let me tell you what...

First they dont have brain to run the organization secondly put money in their pockets and making HOUSING SOCIETIES ANND BUYING MERCEDES and BMW'z and send whole families abroad! thats what reality from last 22 years... Pakistan Army, Airforce especially Navy extremely in BAD SHAPE... and lacking in technology and now in quantity.... from last 30 years this Airforce ... "A COUNTRY WHO IN THE STATE OF WAR since 1947" that country have JUST ONLY 50 Frontline Fighter who is also fighting WORLD's so called bullshit WAR ON TERROR... Amazing thinktanks and strategy makers and policy makers planing! *


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## KRAIT

A1Kaid said:


> To be honest not much can be done about this unless Pakistan acquires good governance and attains economic progress for at least a decade. The single factor that is preventing military modernization in the PM is finance, until that important criteria can be met the forces level of progress will remain stagnate, and of course that is no progress at all.
> 
> Though, if we are talking about war, there are still operations that can be done to neutralize some of this threat, they will have to be more extreme. Though, I don't have full trust and confidence in the PM leadership's skill, so I cannot give them the benefit of the doubt in war.
> 
> Though it is important to remember an attack is not imminent nor more likely to occur because of this procurement.


You are right, unless economic prowess is achieved, its hard to spend more on defense. AWACs and SAM acquisitions will give Pak much needed deterrence.


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## deckingraj

farhan_9909 said:


> *thanks to MOD of india for doing this.*
> beside this pak wasnt going to purchase any arms from france in future.the possible purchase we could do from EU was from Italy(avionics for j-10B-JFT) and IRIS-T WVR from Germany..and i am sure even now we have those option in our hand



We did not do anything to oppose you or suite you...but in turn if our decision has helped you then great...though i fail to join the dots but if you can then good for you...

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## deckingraj

Big Boss said:


> 1. By above post it looks like PAF can face any force or whole world in defensive mode but that's not the reality.


you are right..but it doesn't also mean that PAF will go down like cake...




> 2. And for net centric warfare the most important requirement are:
> 
> a.) Dedicated communication satellite which PAF don't have IAF will have by 2014.
> 
> What will PAf will do if communication is cut off.
> 
> b.) Dedicated spy satellite which PAF don't have but IAF have.
> 
> 3. You are not ignoring:
> 
> a.) Dependance on USA for spares etc.
> 
> b.) Kill switch in F 16s
> 
> c.) Blinding of PAF by USA through denial of GPS as they have done it in Iraq.



2. a) IAF will have it by 2014 but what about today??? Anyways China can pitch in for such help for PAF
b) Again count china in...

3. a) Our war is not going to be months long...Spares can be manged for short term...
b) Only time will tell...b/w if there are kill switch how can count in US for plugging them on behest of India
c) We also have dependency on GPS...Why would US do it selectively for PAF??


Look PAF is a formidable force and we should not make a mistake of under-estimating their resolve and capability...


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## ManuZ

Two countries armed with nuclear weapons doesn't have to be bother about anything....
Especially when they are neighbor countries.. 
Cmon guys J-10b or rafale who gives a damn...


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## KRAIT

ManuZ said:


> Two countries armed with nuclear weapons doesn't have to be bother about anything....
> Especially when they are neighbor countries..
> Cmon guys J-10b or rafale who gives a damn...


In short term-war (couple of weeks atmost) nuclear weapons doesn't matter. Tactical nuclear weapons can make a difference, but won't affect aggressive country to acquire small portion of land.


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## Bl[i]tZ

KRAIT said:


> In short term-war (couple of weeks atmost) nuclear weapons doesn't matter. Tactical nuclear weapons can make a difference, but won't affect aggressive country to acquire small portion of land.



I've to go OT but needed to correct this - TACTICAL or STRATEGIC, Indian N doctrine clearly states - any Nuclear, biological or chemical attack on Indian soil or on Indian forces will ensure a massive violent retaliation causing unacceptable damage. Once the N thing starts N doctrine kicks in and all bets are off.


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## ManuZ

I guess the best option for pak is to stay low for a while....
Because i dont think they hav any good options against Rafale...
They are not likely to go for Eurofighter..
All they could do is to wait for what chinese could offer...
J-10b sounds ok....


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## KRAIT

Bl[i]tZ;2549508 said:


> WRONG! TACTICAL or STRATEGIC. Indian N doctrine clearly states - any Nuclear, biological or chemical attack on India soil or on Indian forces will ensure a massive violent retaliation causing unacceptable damage.


Dear if India gains territory in Pakistan, then pakistan can use nuclear weapon on their own land. And small nuclear warhead tipped cruise missiles are becoming concern for India. So no matter what Indian doctrine is, pakistan can strike within its own territory whenever they want.


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## killerx

*lets face Indian had a hard time building capable fighter jets like tajes to they cant waste time and money on Indian company when they can buy new better expensive on form some one else like France India ha try to sop Pakistan military form getting parts and equipments form western countries and it worked French have moved back from supporting PAF but the good part of it
is Pakistan has be come more self relaying and building its own jets buy form jets other then a good friend India has change the game as far as Rafael Pakistan will built or buy a fifth generation jet from china or start a joint venture with china for fifth generation fighter jet the biggest difference I think in J10B and Rafael is super cruse engine other J10B is completely on par with Rafael*

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## Awesome

killerx said:


> *lets face Indian had a hard time building capable fighter jets like tajes to they cant waste time and money on Indian company when they can buy new better expensive on form some one else like France India ha try to sop Pakistan military form getting parts and equipments form western countries and it worked French have moved back from supporting PAF but the good part of it
> is Pakistan has be come more self relaying and building its own jets buy form jets other then a good friend India has change the game as far as Rafael Pakistan will built or buy a fifth generation jet from china or start a joint venture with china for fifth generation fighter jet the biggest difference I think in J10B and Rafael is super cruse engine other J10B is completely on par with Rafael*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------
> 
> J10B in large no i think up to 100 would be enoughf for  rafael



Indians often use the term babu giri to describe this attitude. The babus are sort of a derogatory term to describe persons of attitude that drag their feet and inflate the outcomes as successes.

In Pakistan since the military is still quite independent it manages circumvent this and make quick decisions. Its the same everywhere, jitne moonh utni baatein. India's system is still considered better since if an army man decides to spend 20 Bn of Pakistan's money on Mig-21s, there is little you can do about it but in India you can. To some degree.

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## killerx

ManuZ said:


> I guess the best option for pak is to stay low for a while....
> Because i dont think they hav any good options against Rafale...
> They are not likely to go for Eurofighter..
> All they could do is to wait for what chinese could offer...
> J-10b sounds ok....



J10B is offered to Pakistan long ago bro and an we don&#8217;t need EF when we can have J20 so start paying more taxes you your gov can buy more jets to counter paf J10B JF17 block 2 and J20 coming soon


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## Awesome

mautkimaut said:


> I would say skip J-10 and go for J-20.
> 
> Since India is not waging any war, it will be better if you guys wait for a few years and go for J-20.
> Rafale is for ground strike and should be a good match for MKI.
> 
> IT is not going to face the MKI but JF-17 and F-16, which i think it will be able to handle.



I'm quite sure, all time tables on 5th gen are BS. The F-22 still seems far from seeing its first combat mission (it may be combat ready, thats another thing). JSF, Pak-Fa and J-20 are further off.

Not in 10 years time you'll see these planes being pitted for combat. We may get war between India and Pakistan at any given time. So some preparation is necessary and continual improvement is the way to go.


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## anonymus

GURU DUTT said:


> what about Barrak -8 &Phalcon's & russian awac killer n MKI's?????????????



Maybe,Mine was a general query as to whether long range SAM's could be Used against AWAC's as a fighter squadron will have to face resistance of escorts.

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## killerx

GURU DUTT said:


> But dear freind what you think about how your Air Force gonna do all that without a strong & consistant economy & do you think India will sit around & do nothing.....What about FGFA & AMCA????????????????????



why are Indian so worried our economy we built JF17 block one right and building more and buying J10B right we spend our taxes in right places and right time like world said we could not build atomic bomb but we did and lots of it and lots of missile to so bro we are talking about Pakistan economy here

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## ManuZ

killerx said:


> *lets face Indian had a hard time building capable fighter jets like tajes to they cant waste time and money on Indian company when they can buy new better expensive on form some one else like France India ha try to sop Pakistan military form getting parts and equipments form western countries and it worked French have moved back from supporting PAF but the good part of it
> is Pakistan has be come more self relaying and building its own jets buy form jets other then a good friend India has change the game as far as Rafael Pakistan will built or buy a fifth generation jet from china or start a joint venture with china for fifth generation fighter jet the biggest difference I think in J10B and Rafael is super cruse engine other J10B is completely on par with Rafael*



If India wanted to build capable fighter jets domestically we could do it easily....
Look Boss with 10 billion dollars it is easy to buy the technology and the necessary talent from india and from foreign countries..
India is building its own aviation complex..but its slow and is taking time to get matured....
The MMRCA was necessary because Tejas took more time to mature and we were having trouble maintaining the required number of jets....
India has never blocked any country from selling weapons to pakistan...
U wont get any high end weapon system from the west because of ur reputation...No offense...

How the hell r u gonna afford 100 J10bs?

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## KRAIT

GURU DUTT said:


> what about Barrak -8 &Phalcon's & russian awac killer n MKI's?????????????


That we have for republic day parade. 
@topic
J-20 acquisition should be second priority. JF-17 blk II and J-10 B should remain the first for atleast 5 years.

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## killerx

stay on topic plz : we are talking about pak option after india gets rafale not mki and missllie and mines

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## ManuZ

killerx said:


> J10B is offered to Pakistan long ago bro and an we don&#8217;t need EF when we can have J20 so start paying more taxes you your gov can buy more jets to counter paf J10B JF17 block 2 and J20 coming soon



Correct me if im wrong.....
But when did china offer pakistan j20?


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## Tiger Awan

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm quite sure, all time tables on 5th gen are BS. The F-22 still seems far from seeing its first combat mission (it may be combat ready, thats another thing). JSF, Pak-Fa and J-20 are further off.
> 
> Not in 10 years time you'll see these planes being pitted for combat. We may get war between India and Pakistan at any given time. So some preparation is necessary and continual improvement is the way to go.


 
totally agree with this thing

+ why go for an overkill ( also at a time when our neighbour is concerned about our economy )

leave your 5th generation ACs for 5th generation enemy ACs.


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## killerx

ManuZ said:


> If India wanted to build capable fighter jets domestically we could do it easily....
> Look Boss with 10 billion dollars it is easy to buy the technology and the necessary talent from india and from foreign countries..
> India is building its own aviation complex..but its slow and is taking time to get matured....
> The MMRCA was necessary because Tejas took more time to mature and we were having trouble maintaining the required number of jets....
> India has never blocked any country from selling weapons to pakistan...
> U wont get any high end weapon system from the west because of ur reputation...No offense...
> 
> How the hell r u gonna afford 100 J10bs?



if we can afford to mantain large army in small budget and you are still haveing sleep less nights....

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## Awesome

ManuZ said:


> Correct me if im wrong.....
> But when did china offer pakistan j20?



We can blindly trust China to show up, our relations are that good.


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## KRAIT

It doesn't matter whether China gives them J-20 or not. China has already cleared its stance over pakistan, Any attack on Pakistan will be considered attack on China.

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## GURU DUTT

killerx said:


> *why are Indian so worried our economy we built JF17 block one right and building more and buying J10B right* we spend our taxes in right places and right time like world said we could not build atomic bomb but we did and lots of it and lots of missile to so bro we are talking about Pakistan economy here



Thats because there is an unofficial so called proxy warr being fought Between India & Pakistan for the last 41 odd years...you know why????

Now i was talking about economy cause wars are faought not just by soldiers alone ...they need wepons & more importantlly a stedy & secure flow of supplies ...now kindly tell me how would you manage to support 150-200 JFT & 50-100 J-10B's?????????


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## killerx

ManuZ said:


> Correct me if im wrong.....
> But when did china offer pakistan j20?



when is ready and do you think we will not buy from china J20 J10B was first offerd to paksitan not any other country in the world

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## Big Boss

deckingraj said:


> you are right..but it doesn't also mean that PAF will go down like cake...



No one is saying that, my point was in the reference of false myth being created.



> 2. a) IAF will have it by 2014 but what about today??? Anyways China can pitch in for such help for PAF
> b) Again count china in...



Do u see a war today or tomorrow? 2014 is just next year and there is nothing for PAF.

china is a hypothetical question, china could have helped pakistan into a developed country is it doing it??



> 3. a) Our war is not going to be months long...Spares can be manged for short term...



U never know.



> b) Only time will tell...b/w if there are kill switch how can count in US for plugging them on behest of India



Its a fact even if time will tell then wait for it why are u jumping into it. And why for India question, answer is simple they don't want a nuke war. 



> c) We also have dependency on GPS...Why would US do it selectively for PAF??



Really?? why am i wasting my time debating with you?? U need to brush up ur facts apart from GPS we have Russian GLONASS for military use.

The Hindu : News / National : India strikes deal with Russia on Glonass

Now, u understand why i singled out PAF???

Also, soon India will have its own IRNSS too.



> Look PAF is a formidable force and we should not make a mistake of under-estimating their resolve and capability...



Who is under estimating?? Never ever underestimate ur enemy is the mantra.


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## KRAIT

ManuZ said:


> Like u really believe the chinese????
> They have a Department for issuing Warnings and ridiculous Statements....
> If something happens to pakistan they r not gonna do Sh.t......
> The americans used drones all over them and insulted their sovereignty and the chinese did nothing...
> They chinese mean time went on sanctioning loan to americans for fight war on pakistans backyard....


Pakistan is gateway to Arabian sea, Middle east and Indian Ocean. Few skirmishes, couple of hundred dead people don't change nation's foreign policy. Around 50k died in J&K, did we change our stance?


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## ManuZ

Okkkkk on the topic.....
Options for PAK to counter Rafale....

JF 17 block 1,2,3.....
J10B and hundreds of them according to experts....
J20ss and that too in good numbers.....
Did i miss anything?


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## monitor

Most probably India is going for Typhoon not Rafale,secondly because of your economic condition you cannot counter typhoon with rafale or rafale with typhoon so at the end your answer unfortunately will hover around FC-20. 

So PAF option is large fleet of Jf-17 block II and III along with much more capable FC-20 .


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## killerx

ManuZ said:


> Okkkkk on the topic.....
> Options for PAK to counter Rafale....
> 
> JF 17 block 1,2,3.....
> J10B and hundreds of them according to experts....
> J20ss and that too in good numbers.....
> Did i miss anything?



Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA 
ans F 17 block 1,2,3.....
J10B and hundreds of them according to experts....
J20ss and that too in good numbers..... 
barvoo you saeid it your self cto counter rafale we are bulding JF17 block 2 which is 4.5gen and J10B close to 5Gen and only supercruse engines to become 5th gen is the good rafale is not god fighters you guys are making it there are better then it and more coming like J20 

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------




PANDORA said:


> No offence but PAF is yet to deal Su 30mki and F16b52 already neutralise by IAF Mirage2k 5mk2 and Mig29UPG .Rafale is like bolt from sky which even china knows what it capable off..



what french told you secret of rafale the world dosent know yea right china is making J20 and compare with rafale yae like you can if you and french know about it

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## Stealth

For Pakistan.... best solution so kill all these corrupt politicians and Generals.... Call techno-crate govt and allow new technical faces (those who have expertise in Finance, Military, Business, Sports). Change the atmosphere of corruption hang all old Generals because of whom today's Pakistan is suffering. Close all the doors for Army intervention in the govt. Shutdown all those societies which made by Military retired officers. Moreover shutdown budget of Military as much as Govt can. After this ... spend money on the internal security of Pakistan (Police and Agencies). Control properly Law and Order and after that you can capable to call foreigners and foreign investment into Pakistan. Built your economy... US is not GOD US event not capable to fight with Taliban's leave US if possible shutdown each and every kind of relation with US. Just talk level - to - level with every country and if any country react like a dictator slap-on and close relation. Pakistan and Pakistan's will never die if UK and USA not with Pakistan. They even not properly control their own country and people how they control Pakistan. Give more power to the judiciary and the parliament. Properly give danda to the people of this nation for TAX ... collection of TAX @ every place. When people will spend money inside Pakistan, when businessman will feel secure in Pakistan when Govt properly built better Electricity, Dams, infrastructure then Pakistan will automatically capable to buy any FIGHTER or anything even US/India cant do anything .... 

so first remove corruption from Pakistan... you will buy EACH and EVERYTHING when you have MONEY simple.... and if we still continue this STATE with in STATE politics seriously mark my words even after 2050 our children will say samething what our fanboys saying right now unfortunately "WE HAVE BETTER PILOTS WE HAVE BETTER TRAINING" 

Either our Army is well trained when enemy is intruding inside your Airspace and military govt both "talyaan baja rahay hain haathoon may karay pehan kar" and even they have backdoor approval for attack INSIDE THEIR OWN TERRITORY and many of our Pakistani's excusing (as always) "THEY WAIT FOR THE **** orders they wait for the orders from GHQ ... but they are well trained seriously WHOLE WORLD IS LAUGHING ON US"

Control Corruption... and buy ANYTHING! still after only 10% of TAX collection... your military and govt spending and running organizations.... when Pakistan tax collection close to 50 % at-least our forces will buy ANYTHING.... but before KILL-N-KICK Corrupt GENERALS and LEADERS!


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## Windjammer

Seems the whole argument has turned on it's head.... somewhere an Indian member rightly pointed out that "unlike the Rafale, the EFT is a thorough air superiority fighter, the selection of the Rafale is basically to replace the Jaguars and MiG-27 in the deep strike and related special mission roles". For that PAF already has a well established nucleus. In air combat, with BVR very much into the equation, well it's a double edge sword, my hands are tied but Santro can clear many cob webs.

*PAF Block-52s equipped for SEAD and other special missions.*

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## Manticore

rafale was the best option for india-- i'm sure its state of the art , but it was the sane choice as its the only fighter with which paf cant directly train with our arab allies --- same is the case with j10b -- this fighter will also keep the enemies guessing about the extent of its capabilities -- the j10b is the most practical option for us , we might endup with some basic ToT in this case but more importantly the ability to indigenously upgrade the j10b based on our requirements is what the west can never give us, no matter how much money we throw at the deal --

The 2 fighters have been shorlisted for quite a while and paf did have the basic idea of the sphere of capabilities required to counter them-- and even now, its not that the first squadron would be magically appearing in the iaf today... it will take time

I personaly dont think the u.s will use the killswitches so to speak , as they want to see how their f16s fair against the rafale-- maybe we might even see new f16s being sent to pak... this would send 2 msgs--1]somewhat ease the imbalance 2]pit the f16 against newer rafales as a marketing statement


there is a thread here on results of exercises between the old rafale mk2and f16 blk52s---

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## saiyan0321

four hours later now china is involved in pak vs ind i said it before i will say it again buying rafale will not make you invincible its a great purchase but paf can counter by simply first get the fleet out of f16 influence and then go for jf17 block 123 and then go for j10 simple 5th generation planes with us we can hold them off again but first concentrate on getting the jf17 in pak air force in high numbers and work on the naval version we need to make our pn air arm stronger


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## Edevelop

ManuZ said:


> Okkkkk on the topic.....
> Options for PAK to counter Rafale....
> 
> JF 17 block 1,2,3.....
> J10B and hundreds of them according to experts....
> J20ss and that too in good numbers.....
> Did i miss anything?



Yes you did...
F-16s!! More are to be delivered with the option of buying another 18...


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## KRAIT

Rafale - Airforce Technology

Pak's answer, 
J-10 (Jian 10) Vigorous Dragon - Airforce Technology

Pakistan will receive the first export versions of the J-10, up to 36 aircraft, by 2015.

Looks like they are ahead of us.


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## GURU DUTT

farhan_9909 said:


> Pak pilot defeated EFT with f-16 A/B
> 
> So pilot factor doesn matter
> 
> we have one of the world best pilots.



sir according to experts starting from MKI & Rafale for that matter if owr plains ...which is there current capacity...paint your planes & fire a salvo of two missiles per aircraft before your planes even start trackin us the what will you do ...i mean at a range of 100-125 km's are the current BVR range of India & in FUTURE cause of JFT-1, 2,3 & J-10B will get that so ...whats your plan & im not counting super sukoi's , FGFA & Rafales as yet...think????????

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## Edevelop

I think there will be no such thing as BVR, we are next door, so likely there will be a dogfight. How capable are your pilots? i don't know, but as far as Pakistani pilots are concerned, they are trained only for that... So in the end, there is the pilot factor.


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> In which case, you wouldn't need an army, would you? Just ask the Chinese to show up for you.


 
Why have a country even? Call it a province of China.

The fact is that as allies they are trustworthy as mutual benefits exist in making such exchanges. Pakistan for example would provide value to China if it operates J-10s and J-20s in the future.


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## Awesome

ManuZ said:


> until u can stand at urown feet....



You do realize you're taunting me with that in a thread where India is paying USD 20 Bn because it could not stand on its own feet.

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## prabhakar

Asim Aquil said:


> Why have a country even? Call it a province of China.
> 
> The fact is that as allies they are trustworthy as mutual benefits exist in making such exchanges. Pakistan for example would provide value to China if it operates J-10s and J-20s in the future.



when was the last time china helped you actively by participating on the behalf of Pakistan ? didn't they recently rejected defence pact and gwadar port for strategic purposes ?

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## Edevelop

KRAIT said:


> Bhai sahab bagal wali gali main thode hi rehte ho.....
> 
> @topic-
> BVR , well wouldn't it be useful if we bring down your aircraft from our side of border if acc. to you we are so close.
> 
> AWACs is best thing pak can do right now .



we have awacs i.e erieye and ZDK-03. JF-17 Block 1 right now has a strong radar without the AESA. They can shoot your aircrafts down within borders anyways. That is why you will need to come in close to us due to these threats. Either you stay where you are, or we both come....


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## Awesome

Big Boss said:


> Chalo for argument sake one takes ur theory then what about now?????
> 
> *Today 1st Feb 2012???????*
> 
> 
> Following is something posted by a pakistani member *"Pfpilot"*



I agree with the assessment. But Pakistan has an inventory of other weapons to drag the fight on to India's ruin if India engaged in such a misadventure. 

I'm guessing India doesn't like that so much so thats why I won't panic and emphasize upon gradual improvement.


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## Awesome

IND151 said:


> right.
> 
> Brazil may buy Rafael now



O bhai, India may still not buy Rafale. I think I was an early teen when I got these awesome Rafale posters from the sales team at the Dubai Airshow. Till date no one has bought it.


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## ManuZ

cb4 said:


> We should be asking you the same thing for JFT and F-16s right now. You have more aircrafts with different looks to counter them...



Is is supposed to be good or bad?
well i dont know the answer...
But is it better to hav one good platform and hav it in large numbers instead of having different aircrafts?
correct me if im wrong?
Can a pilot using su 30 perform them same in say mig 29?


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## Edevelop

ManuZ said:


> Is is supposed to be good or bad?
> well i dont know the answer...
> But is it better to hav one good platform and hav it in large numbers instead of having different aircrafts?
> correct me if im wrong?
> Can a pilot using su 30 perform them same in say mig 29?



Well both are twin engine aircrafts, their size, hard points, payload, weapon carrying, IRST, and radar might be more or less the same...
You even upgraded your mig-29s, so what is the difference?
If you say that it has a specific role, then my question to you is, for a certain role, why would you need large quantities? I mean for you guys, Pakistan is weak, F-16s are in MLU, and JF-17s are in induction mode. Is there some kind of fear in India's mind?


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## IND151

Mani2020 said:


> Lets face the truth we have no cash to match with the rapid modernization of indian defence forces .... they are playing their cards right along with the money its the brain that needs to work...* we had the luxury of US , France and other western nations for almost 50 years but we didnt took the advantage and never played our cards right *...also thanks to our economy and doomed democracy cum dictatorship ...and they got just 10 years of luxury to be the customer of west and they showed us how to play the cards rightly .....
> 
> We have no option other then to play around with fc-20 ...the only thing we can do is modifying the fc-20 to make it par with the selected aircraft with best options we have.... but the hindrance remains the same i.e money ....Jf-17 block 2 and 3 is still long way away may be the former one is nearer then anticipated but the later one seems to be long away




in my humble opinion dire french need for sale of rafale made deal favorable for India. 

France needed sales desperately and India exploited it.

*when seller needs its product to be sold at all costs, it doesn't have too much say in negotiations.*

so India went for Rafale as french are ready for ToT ( partially i guess ) and its similarity with Mirage 2000.

and as some* Chinese analysts *have pointed out some of the technology on MRCA winner will find way in FGFA.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Guys Wake Up......

Dassault Rafale came with many strings one must not forget.

*Rafale Engine is powered by Snecma the same company that is helping in Kaveri Engine.
French Scorpène class submarines builders DCNS with Help in ATV programs with MESMA system 
French shipbuilder DCNS will help in IAC 1 and 2 with CATOBAR technology and steam catapult
Dassault will help with AESA radar for LCA*

Not to forget French were awarded with Nuclear contracts

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## IND151

Black Widow said:


> * Chinese analysts * is wrong, We are not immoral backstabers. French have trusted us, we will not backstabbed. There is no way that India will smuggle the technology to Russia or after receiving 18-50 Rafael it will break the agreement (Like China did with USSR, I read this fear raised by some Brits in daily telegraph).
> 
> India is known for keeping trade secrete. We had Nuclear submarine in 90s, we never release the USSR technology to French for there scorpion. We never release any information regarding MiG29 or Su30 to any western country.
> 
> So this so called * Chinese analysts * is wrong. Its true ppl look others the way they are..



i meant India may use Rafale components on FGFA with *french permission.*


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## Edevelop

DelhiDareDevil said:


> I knew this since I joined this forum.



You people will never understand Pakistanis. We are smart. maybe corrupt, but great politicians...
Ever thought of a country other than Pakistan getting weapons from U.S, China, Russia, France, Turkey, etc...?
True. Chinese are Business opportunist. But we need knowledge and experience, that all. You may laugh looking at the situation now, but ever country starts off with getting dependent. JFT and K-8 projects allow us not only being dependent, but allows us to learn. If we were so dependent than maybe i could ask how on earth we made nuclear weapons in the first place starting from 1970s? I bet you, if your country had 180 million people in a small country, you wouldn't be as successful as we are. LOL, you couldnt even produce a single fast bowler out of a billion people but we did... In this population, we even produced a nobel piece prize winner, poets, musicians, youngest Microsoft certifiers on world list. How about you out of a billion people?

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## Awesome

prabhakar said:


> when was the last time china helped you actively by participating on the behalf of Pakistan ? didn't they recently rejected defence pact and gwadar port for strategic purposes ?



In the 2002 Standoff with India they rushed the delivery of parts for F-7 PGs and even supplied many of them. Suddenly 250 more F-7PGs in our inventory played a major role in India backing off of a fight back then.

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## niaz

Stealth said:


> For Pakistan.... best solution so kill all these corrupt politicians and Generals.... Call techno-crate govt and allow new technical faces (those who have expertise in Finance, Military, Business, Sports). Change the atmosphere of corruption hang all old Generals because of whom today's Pakistan is suffering.
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Control Corruption... and buy ANYTHING! still after only 10% of TAX collection... your military and govt spending and running organizations.... when Pakistan tax collection close to 50 % at-least our forces will buy ANYTHING.... but before KILL-N-KICK Corrupt GENERALS and LEADERS!




Indian MMRCA project has been going on for a long time. Everyone in PAF and Ministry of Defence as well at the Joint Staff Hqrs in Islamabad must be aware that it will come sooner or later. So what is the big problem now?

PAF has been cash starved since its birth mainly because Pakistan has always had shortage of foreign exchange. One of the main reasons for Pakistan joining Cento, SEATO and all those treaties was to get military hardware on the cheap. 

Pakistan foreign policy has been Indian centric since birth. This myopic view plus the misguided thinking that Pakistan is a fortress of Islam and we must interfere in places like Chechnya etc. is the real cause of our ills. Why do you think that US is providing Nuclear Technology to India and not to Pakistan?

Let us face it, there is a strong section of Pakistan society which sympathises with the Taliban and Al-Qaida and completely ignores dastardly attacks by the so called Islamic terrorists. Recently TTP captured and beheaded 15 Pak Army soldiers and even released a video showing this heinous act. Did anyone even care about it? On the other hand 24 Pak soldiers were killed at Salala by the US and the whole nation is up in arms. Both the act are equally abhorrent but treated totally differently by the national media and everyone else including the Army? Do we think that it is okay by Taliban to kill Pak soldiers because they are doing it in the name of Islam? 

Such dichotomy in the national thinking is what the real problem is. Most of the Western world thinks that there is a real danger of Pak Nukes falling in the hands of Taliban or their sympathizers. Regretfully Imran Khan is among such politicians, he is fuming against US in every speech, but did he even condemned TTP for their butchery? Imran can possibly win next election; therefore fears of the West are genuine. Corrupt military and politicians simply make the matter worse that is all. Killing off all the corrupt politicians is not going to solve the problem. Even if we had the money, it is doubtful that the West would sell us the hardware that we want. Remember that Swedish Grippen couldn&#8217;t be sold to us because of US Engine.

Wars are fought and won with strong economy. Pakistan economy is a pigmy compared to India, so let us not try to &#8216;keep up with the Joneses&#8217;. In the foreseeable future Pak economy will not be strong enough to attack India and come out on top. Therefore all we need is a lean and mean PAF strong enough to make it too costly for Indian to attack Pakistan. Think PAF is on the right track towards achieving this objective. 

I totally agree with your conclusions though. For the time being any funds that we can spare should go toward resolving the gas and electric load shedding problem as it is crippling Pak economy and resovling law and order situation; both are necessary for peace and prosperity.

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## deckingraj

anonymus said:


> Off-topic but a valid query
> 
> S-300PMU has range of 195km.Can't they be placed at border and used as AWAC killers.



It has been stated many times in various threads that MKI's are mini awacs...however my point is if a JF17 can see an incoming MKI via an Eyrie then MKI's better radar edge is lost, no???


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## rockstarIN

Asim Aquil said:


> In the 2002 Standoff with India they rushed the delivery of parts for F-7 PGs and even supplied many of them. Suddenly 250 more F-7PGs in our inventory played a major role in India backing off of a fight back then.



Any proof, all rumors...!!

Will you believe if I say France secretly gave us 100 M2ks in 2002?

F-7 PGs were not a competitor for Indian Jets in 2002.

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## prabhakar

Asim Aquil said:


> In the 2002 Standoff with India they rushed the delivery of parts for F-7 PGs and even supplied many of them. Suddenly 250 more F-7PGs in our inventory played a major role in India backing off of a fight back then.



Kindly help me by providing a source... Thanks


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## deckingraj

Big Boss said:


> No one is saying that, my point was in the reference of false myth being created.


Didn't you say that they have alredy lost the parity battle??? If you say that refale is not going to being in any change in the equation then is it wrong on my behalf to assume you are saying that???



> Do u see a war today or tomorrow? 2014 is just next year and there is nothing for PAF.


On the same token do you see a war in 2014??? War may happen today or war may not happen even for decades...Its better to talk about reality and then compare the future plans...I am not saying dedicated spy sattelites will not make it easy for us but all i am pointing to you is that they have an option in CHina...




> china is a hypothetical question, china could have helped pakistan into a developed country is it doing it??


Now this is really heights....China has helped them in the past and there is little doubt they will not in the future...b/w how can you build someone else economy???




> U never know.


You are right...One can never know...But logically speaking a long war b/w nuclear powers is a myth... 



> Its a fact even if time will tell then wait for it why are u jumping into it. And why for India question, answer is simple they don't want a nuke war.



Who told you there are kill switches to start with??? And just for the sake if there is one how will US prevent a nuke war by simply breaking the backbone of PAF??? This argument is absurd...By breaking the backbone of PAF they will bring in nuke war closer then what it would have been otherwise, no????




> Really?? why am i wasting my time debating with you?? U need to brush up ur facts apart from GPS we have Russian GLONASS for military use.
> 
> The Hindu : News / National : India strikes deal with Russia on Glonass
> 
> Now, u understand why i singled out PAF???
> 
> Also, soon India will have its own IRNSS too.



Well you can chose not to debate...i can't do anything about it...Read my comment again..Did i say we don't have other options??? All i am saying is that we also depend upon GPS...b/w why are you negating China here???? 




> Who is under estimating?? Never ever underestimate ur enemy is the mantra.


Here i agree with you..but when you say things like PAF has already been taken care of and a potent fighter like Rafale will not bring in change to the equation then i tend to feel the opposite of what you are quoting...

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## Stealth

I **** something... that PAF hold some money and waiting for the MMRCA decision ... you will see something different from Pakistan side with in few months


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## Secur

GURU DUTT said:


> so J20 is oparational??????????????


 Did i mention anything of that sort ? ... Why dont people just try to understand the context the post was posted in ?


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Stealth said:


> I **** something... that PAF hold some money and waiting for the MMRCA decision ... you will see something different from Pakistan side with in few months



so you believe that PAF's response to eurofighter would have been different from what it will be to Rafale, considering the 2 planes are not that different in capability.. ?


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## Avatar

PAF should evaluate Gripen. I feel it is the most capable fighter for the price and suits PAF's doctrine well. It will also fit the defense budget and SAAB is willing to offer flexible payment options.

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## graphican

ManuZ said:


> *If India wanted to build capable fighter jets domestically we could do it easily....*



I think India has tried all it could and then went for MMRCA when it knew its own capacity cannot fulfil its defence requirements. Its not secret how India's own fighter jet project is going. But if you want to insist that India could do it and have choozen rather not to do, you are standing on a lame ground. 

The scenario which Pakistan would face from 2015 onwards is not a surprising one and PAF is already aware of the challenge which India could pose then. Its illogical to consider that PAF would have started thinking about countering India on the eve of 29 after India made its decision. If India had gone for EF, PAF might had to work extra hour but with Rafale, we have relatively lesser challenge to face.


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## Awesome

rockstar said:


> Any proof, all rumors...!!
> 
> Will you believe if I say France secretly gave us 100 M2ks in 2002?
> 
> F-7 PGs were not a competitor for Indian Jets in 2002.


 


prabhakar said:


> Kindly help me by providing a source... Thanks



Dudes, I don't really need to lie about these things. I am on a network with limited internet right now, I'd pave way for some other smarter folks here to do the honors of providing you guys with a source for some very common knowledge.

edit: See the following post: 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ndia-selects-rafale-mmrca-30.html#post2550341

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## farhan_9909

DelhiDareDevil said:


> Truly believe Pakistan should increase its defence budget to around 6-7% of GDP



we are nt at war..and even if war happened it will be limited.and we will nt use all our resources aka fighters.

at present we are having a balance program of fighters by 2015
50 JF-17
100 JF-17 II
80 F-16 with 18 more on option
and 50-60 J-10B

Now this is a balance AF.When J-10B will have a AESA,IRST,Ws-10G,and advance avionics of J-20

we need to make our economy stable to achieve 7-8% growth and hence defence budget will auto increase with the increase in the GDP annually

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## farhan_9909

Avatar said:


> PAF should evaluate Gripen. I feel it is the most capable fighter for the price and suits PAF's doctrine well. It will also fit the defense budget and SAAB is willing to offer flexible payment options.



damn both JFT and Gripen are light weight fighter

even at the current state JFT is equal to Gripen A/B


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## Windjammer

*
Induction ceremony of F-7PG into PAF service, which were delivered in middle of crisis with India in 2002.
*

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## Awesome

niaz said:


> Recently TTP captured and beheaded 15 Pak Army soldiers and even released a video showing this heinous act. Did anyone even care about it? On the other hand 24 Pak soldiers were killed at Salala by the US and the whole nation is up in arms.



I would disagree, this is American point of view. IMO we wage war against those Taliban people... Them killing us, us killing them is a normal, expected (although unfortunate - them killing us) process.

Here we have the top 3 leaders (Kayani, Zardari and Gillani) totally subservient to the US, we praise them, we adore them, we take money from them, we send more of our people to die so that they may live. There is sense in being in uproar more over that incident Niaz sahab, this simplification did not do the incident justice.


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## Windjammer

*
Since the MMRCA party is in full swing, it's worth noting that the PAF already incorporates the JHMCS for it's Block-52s and in due course all PAF F-16s will have this capability.*

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## VCheng

Jet-Table by vcheng552000, on Flickr

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## Lord Of Gondor

How will the MiG 29SMT's fare in the entire Indo-Pak air war-*hypothetical scenario?*
As it is stationed approximately 100 KMs from the IB and may be first Indian jet to get to the scenario.


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## ManuZ

soo the discussion was about the option for PAF against indian MMRCA....
Soo anybody have any sensible suggestion on that other than trolling?


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## 帅的一匹

ManuZ said:


> soo the discussion was about the option for PAF against indian MMRCA....
> Soo anybody have any sensible suggestion on that other than trolling?


Induction J10b and integrate more advanced western avionics system on it. That is simple, cheap for PAF with less interest rate burden by loan, with no risk of being sanctioned cause the airframe and engine is made in china.

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## 帅的一匹

China is willing to provide PAF PESA radar if they need.


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## Secur

wanglaokan said:


> Induction J10b and integrate more advanced western avionics system on it. That is simple, cheap for PAF with less interest rate burden by loan, with no risk of being sanctioned cause the airframe and engine is made in china.


 Signed the deal long ago ... I dont know why people are over reacting ! 

Simple Question : Which one will become operational first ? J10 or Rafale ? Has the MMRCA deal even signed yet ?  In the meantime JF17 BlK 2 will keep coming ... Whats the problem then ?
The J10 deal back in 2007 and they will be delivered by the end of 2013 at worst ( First Squadron ) ... Do Indians now consider the Rafale to be more capable than previous " God's gift to Aviation " SU 30 MKI ?  What new things does it bring on the table ? We are already developing J2xx with China ...

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## The enlightened

IMHO
The best hope for PAF in this situation is to try to get it's hands on F-16 Blk 60 or even higher.


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## 帅的一匹

Secur said:


> Signed the deal long ago ... I dont know why people are over reacting !
> 
> Simple Question : Which one will become operational first ? J10 or Rafale ? Has the MMRCA deal even signed yet ?
> The J10 deal back in 2007 and they will be delivered by the end of 2013 at worst ( First Squadron ) ...



At the time the first squad of J10b arrived doing their first public display, I wanna fly to Pakistan to see it by myself. I can't wait that glory moment to come. Hopefully some nice Pakistani brother in this forum will show me the way as guider hah hah!

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## The enlightened

Secur said:


> Signed the deal long ago ... I dont know why people are over reacting !
> 
> Simple Question : Which one will become operational first ? J10 or Rafale ? Has the MMRCA deal even signed yet ?  In the meantime JF17 BlK 2 will keep coming ... Whats the problem then ?
> The J10 deal back in 2007 and they will be delivered by the end of 2013 at worst ( First Squadron ) ... Do Indians now consider the Rafale to be more capable than previous " God's gift to Aviation " SU 30 MKI ?  What new things does it bring on the table ? We are already developing J2xx with China ...


What does it matter if J10 comes first or Rafale. They'll need quite some time to be fully integrated in the doctrine's of their respective AF's plus their pilots would take quite some time getting used to those birds. In this regard I believe both IAF and PAF would be evenly matched because PF pilots get to train on the Chinese jets whereas IAF with their pilots doing about 200-300 flight hrs per year on their jets would catch up quick.
As far as Su 30MKI is concerned. You don't need to worry about it. It is significantly better than anything PAF has or planned in the near future and well, since we don't know the exact nature of it's MLU, it's hard to say about it vis-a-vis Rafale F3. But even it's current state it is quite a match for the Rafale. And your J-2X, do let me know when it comes out.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*closed for moderating*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Big Boss said:


> 1. By above post it looks like PAF can face any force or whole world in defensive mode but that's not the reality.


My post does not suggest that at all, at least not unconditionally - how effective and advanced a net-centric war-fighting capability a military possesses will depend on the number and quality of assets deployed that make up the entire system, as well as how refined and tested the actual doctrine utilizing all those assets to their maximum potential is.



> 2. And for net centric warfare the most important requirement are:
> 
> a.) Dedicated communication satellite which PAF don't have IAF will have by 2014.


Not necessarily - the AWAC's and various other ground and air based systems that Pakistan possesses do not require satellite communication in order to be integrated into the overall C4 system.

What additional advantage would a satellite provide, over the existing C4 system, in terms of a war with India?



> What will PAf will do if communication is cut off.


Satellite communication, as part of net-centiricity, will be routed through ground or air based C4 systems - as will non-satellite based communication - so in either case one side can disrupt communications of the other by going after the non-satellite based C4 nodes. 



> b.) Dedicated spy satellite which PAF don't have but IAF have.


Useful for developing intelligence BEFORE hostilities start - I fail to see their use during the course of a short one or two week war. And Pakistan can access satellite imagery from other sources.



> 3. You are not ignoring:
> 
> a.) Dependance on USA for spares etc.


Hence the shift away from the F-16 as the main fighter platform - but that said, the PAF was able to keep the F-16's flying through almost a decade of US sanctions, and has enough spare parts to keep them flying during the course of a short war.



> b.) Kill switch in F 16s


Science Fiction, and unsubstantiated.



> c.) Blinding of PAF by USA through denial of GPS as they have done it in Iraq.


 How will it blind the PAF? The PAF is not planning on flying around the world - it is going to be deployed primarily in Pakistani airspace and perhaps across the IB in Indian air space during the course of a war, and Pakistani pilots did just fine landing their aircraft during past wars when they did not have GPS capability in their air-craft.

Other than that, long range detection, coordination, ECCM etc. support for PAF fighters will be provided through the C4 network being set up, which will include the SAAB and ZDK AEW&C's, not satellite communication.

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## The enlightened

So has this thread been reopened


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The enlightened said:


> So has this thread been reopened


Yes, after about 200 deleted posts.

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## The enlightened

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes, after about 200 deleted posts.


Thanks. We all here keep complaining about how the mods are biased, how they aren't competent enough, blah blah blah blah 
but the truth is that you guys have done an excellent job in maintaining the sancity of this forum.
Anyways coming back to topic I now believe the best option for Pakistan would be to improve it's economy, it's relations with India and drop it's support if any for terrorism.


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## Aamir Hussain

Let us see what would be induction date of the first squadron of Rafa's in IAF? We than figure out the their effective integration into IAF as an effective tactical tool for the airforce.

I suspect that by the time Rafa's are inducted, we would start getting our FC-20's with PAF test pilots, engineers, etc in China long before that. Therefore, I do not see much of huh hah on the Rafa. It is a good plane no doubt aobout that. I for one thought the EFT was a better a/c. But than I am not the one dishing out dollars. 

What evenues are open now after the selection of the French a/c for Pakistan? There would be some warming up to Paksitan by Russia or vice versa. The EFT/Grippen also becomes a choice even more. But than the economy becomes an issue. 

India will keep pressure on Russia to not to entertain Pakistan (They will have close to 70% Russian a/c in their inventory). They will also keep on dangling, Transport, MPA's, & Helos and associated weapons and systems infront of US compaines. Hence some leverage on the order book. 

If we had better relations and money, it would have been interesting times viz a viz US buy options. US companies must be smarting under the French choice....


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## majesticpankaj

Aamir Hussain said:


> Let us see what would be induction date of the first squadron of Rafa's in IAF? We than figure out the their effective integration into IAF as an effective tactical tool for the airforce.
> 
> I suspect that by the time Rafa's are inducted, we would start getting our FC-20's with PAF test pilots, engineers, etc in China long before that. Therefore, I do not see much of huh hah on the Rafa. It is a good plane no doubt aobout that. I for one thought the EFT was a better a/c. But than I am not the one dishing out dollars.
> 
> What evenues are open now after the selection of the French a/c for Pakistan? There would be some warming up to Paksitan by Russia or vice versa. The EFT/Grippen also becomes a choice even more. But than the economy becomes an issue.
> 
> India will keep pressure on Russia to not to entertain Pakistan (They will have close to 70% Russian a/c in their inventory). They will also keep on dangling, Transport, MPA's, & Helos and associated weapons and systems infront of US compaines. Hence some leverage on the order book.
> 
> If we had better relations and money, it would have been interesting times viz a viz US buy options. US companies must be smarting under the French choice....



Induction rate will be very slow... in 2015 we will get 18 jets from france and from 2017-18 HAL will start production with initial rate of 6 ac/year

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## Tridibans

Just read the thread for a few pages. Gosh! There are more deleted posts than actual ones


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## Tridibans

majesticpankaj said:


> Induction rate will be very slow... in 2015 we will get 18 jets from france and from 2017-18 HAL will start production with initial rate of 6 ac/year



I thought the contract will have a clause for delivery of 18 jets in a flyaway condition within 36 months. So even if it is signed in March, that means 18 jets by 2014. I think by 2015-16 Indian made Rafales will start rolling out from HAL


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## Secur

Tridibans said:


> I thought the contract will have a clause for delivery of 18 jets in a flyaway condition within 36 months. So even if it is signed in March, that means 18 jets by 2014. I think by 2015-16 Indian made Rafales will start rolling out from HAL


 About the time 2 squadrons of J10B will be operational ! I mean the French cant deliver the aircraft tomorrow as most here are believing or deluding themselves to ...


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## majesticpankaj

Tridibans said:


> I thought the contract will have a clause for delivery of 18 jets in a flyaway condition within 36 months. So even if it is signed in March, that means 18 jets by 2014. I think by 2015-16 Indian made Rafales will start rolling out from HAL



yesterday there was a report from TOI which says that...

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ----------




Secur said:


> About the time 2 squadrons of J10B will be operational ! I mean the French cant deliver the aircraft tomorrow as most here are believing or deluding themselves to ...



let first get them operational in Chinese airforce ..then we can talk about PAF ..

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## Yaduveer

self delete


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> let first get them operational in Chinese airforce ..then we can talk about PAF ..


 The deal has already been signed somewhere in 2007 and i am sure you are well aware of the Chinese speed ... ZDK-03 is a perfect example !


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> yesterday there was a report from TOI which says that...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> let first get them *operational in Chinese airforce* ..then we can talk about PAF ..



Slow rate production has resulted in a regiment being sanctioned for them..
The Chinese may not induct the J-10B in any meaningful numbers as their next induction is geared towards a generation jump.
The FC-20 of the PAF however is not on a concrete timetable as it depends on the variable of funds.
Only the JF-17's and F-16's are certain.

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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> The deal has already been signed somewhere in 2007 and i am sure you are well aware of the Chinese speed ... ZDK-03 is a perfect example !



China can really make very fast but don't forget about the compatibility of subsystems. Even a desktop computer needs to put for a numbers of days to check the compatibility of it's subsystem.


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## Donatello

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> so you believe that PAF's response to eurofighter would have been different from what it will be to Rafale, considering the 2 planes are not that different in capability.. ?



Maybe PAF can tune the config on the J-10s that way.

We know that an AESA is a possibility......given the time frame for MMRCA to actually materialize and IAF gets the first fully operational squadron, it's at least 2 years away...that's a lot of time considering how fast the CAC/AVIC work on the projects. So lets wait and see and hopefully PAF will have some decent cards to play with.


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## Whazzup

hasnain0099 said:


> Sorry to say, i dont read internet reports. These are from JDW and costs me around 1000 USD annually....If you can find this on internet, please help me save this money



Actually I just came up with this did'nt knew that you read it in JDW btw you really that innocent to beleive such reports ???? I mean US don't even share F22 with its closest allies why would it share its weakness against F15???


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## majesticpankaj

Rafale will get fully operational after 2020 only because it takes a lot of training to understand the complexity of the system. The real threat for PAF is SU30 mki and upgraded mig and mirage..

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## Donatello

VCheng said:


> Jet-Table by vcheng552000, on Flickr




Considering the case for F-16:

Empty weight is 18,900lbs
Loaded Weight is 26,500lbs
Max take off weight is 42,300 lbs


Now i understand that Empty weight to Loaded weight is due to the load of the aircraft.....that includes the pilot, fuel and weapons. However, why is the Max take-off weight indicating with such a large number?


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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Considering the case for F-16:
> 
> Empty weight is 18,900lbs
> Loaded Weight is 26,500lbs
> Max take off weight is 42,300 lbs
> 
> 
> Now i understand that Empty weight to Loaded weight is due to the load of the aircraft.....that includes the pilot, fuel and weapons. However, *why is the Max take-off weight indicating with such a large number*?



Because it is designed for that capability is the simple answer, but there are many variable that go into that that are not the topic in this thread. We can discuss it elsewhere if you'd like.


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## ANG

Hi, I have a better option for the PAF and Pakistan. How about do not pick a fight with India? Even better, Pakistan should concentrate on fixing chronic gas shortages, electricity shortages, water shortages, and crack down on corruption. Fix their economy, and have huge disposable reserves to then be able to spend on goodies like the Rafale. 

It all comes down to money. If Pakistan was more stable, and had money, western suppliers would be kicking down their doors to sell them weapons.

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## Pioneerfirst

Tridibans said:


> I thought the contract will have a clause for delivery of 18 jets in a flyaway condition within 36 months. *So even if it is signed in March*, that means 18 jets by 2014. I think by 2015-16 Indian made Rafales will start rolling out from HAL



Such a big deal will not be signed in 2 months,I am sure it will take at least year to prepare the documentation and etc. After that it will take 36 months to deliver first 18 fighters.I am 100% sure that India's 126 Rafale induction will not end before 2020.


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## Aamir Hussain

The fuel, pilot, hydraulics, mission eqpt. etc. is the difference between empty and loaded weight. The weapons load carrying capability was, if I remember it correctly, 12,000 lbs.

VCheng, correct if i am wrong.


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## Machoman

I would say Pakistan better start asking China about J-10b when they will be deliver? We need to have at least 70 J-10s.


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## KRAIT

Machoman said:


> I would say Pakistan better start asking China about J-10b when they will be deliver? We need to have at least 70 J-10s.


36 J-10B by 2014 , may be 2015, already confirmed.


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## KRAIT

Secur said:


> JFT's are more good than you can think actually ... Enlighten yourself by checking the JFT thread ... Read about KLJ 7 radar , KG-300 jammer and WMD-7 pod ... Fully integrated by some of the finest weapons in Chinese inventory , not to forget the Brazilian one ... The count is 42+ which will eventually be => 150 ...
> 
> No , but would you be foolish enough to move all your main assets from the Chinese border ?


I second that, but JF-17 blk II is important , blk I is just replacement to old Rose etc. Hope JF-17 blk II don't get AESA from China when they develop it, not even their homegrown upgrade of N011 radar (Have to say this as a typical indian) 

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------




Secur said:


> I cant recall when i possibly read something as ridiculous as this ... JFT are sanction prone really ?
> 
> JFT is not under nappies ... Been in operational service for 2 years and being refined with every passing day ... Completed 10 000 sorties and has flown in WoT ... What else do you desire ?


Did JF-17 used in WOT, kindly give a link if you have. And JFT, sanction prone, what was he thinking


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## Machoman

Pakistan has no option except get some EF atleast 60, 5-6 billion deal.


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Machoman said:


> Pakistan has no option except get some EF atleast 60, 5-6 billion deal.



Not going to happen.. PAF doctrine has been married to China now..

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------




Secur said:


> I cant recall when i possibly read something as ridiculous as this ... JFT are sanction prone really ?



JFT still uses a Russian Engine.. Correct?


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## Secur

KRAIT said:


> I second that, but JF-17 blk II is important , blk I is just replacement to old Rose etc. Hope JF-17 blk II don't get AESA from China when they develop it, not even their homegrown upgrade of N011 radar (Have to say this as a typical indian)
> 
> Did JF-17 used in WOT, kindly give a link if you have. And JFT, sanction prone, what was he thinking



Everything that i mentioned is present in Blk 1 bro ... And the Chinese AESA was seen fitted on J10B weeks earlier ... The specifications of Blk 2 are KLJ xx , IFR , IRST and some more things ... 

As for the WOT , I am too lazy to search for it ... It was here somewhere on the forum ... Will post it ...


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## Night_Raven

Machoman said:


> Pakistan has no option except get some EF atleast 60, 5-6 billion deal.



The big question :







Hence the best bet would be ramp up JF-17 production and get the J-10Bs as planned ....

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## KRAIT

Machoman said:


> Pakistan has no option except get some EF atleast 60, 5-6 billion deal.


I hope you look into J-10B acquisition from China.... no need to buy such an expensive aircraft.


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## Hobo1

Secur said:


> Mirage 2000 , Migs 29 can be taken care of with JFT's ...


JFT hopes to be as good as Mig29s. And you say it would be able to take on both Mirage 2000 and Mig29s.[/QUOTE]


Secur said:


> Think again , Go re read history ... Even your sources think otherwise ...
> The IA and PA performance may be debatable but that of PAF , no way !



PAF had F86 and F-104 Starfighter which were much better than Hunters and Gnats and we did not use Mig21 so extensively and still PAF could not stand against IAF.


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## ziaulislam

people crying for AESA or using it as bench mark should know that none of indian airrcft and none fo current modern fighters like typhoon,rafale (except American ones) have AESA radar.

PAF figured out that AESA may not be required for second 50 due to reason , none of IAF present aircrafts do have it.

plus we also have to consider 4 Chinese AWACS in additon to 4 SAAB2000 ...


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## Secur

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> JFT still uses a Russian Engine.. Correct?


 Despite the long standing partnership between India and Russia , it still supplies that engine , Correct ? Ask them why did they supply the RD 93 despite massive Indian lobbying/diplomacy ... and as for the engines being sanction prone , I can only say  ... China's developing the WS 10 A to replace it in later JFT blocks , 100 KN thrust more than enough right ?


----------



## VCheng

Aamir Hussain said:


> The fuel, pilot, hydraulics, mission eqpt. etc. is the difference between empty and loaded weight. The weapons load carrying capability was, if I remember it correctly, 12,000 lbs.
> 
> VCheng, correct if i am wrong.



It depends on the version, but the weapons load can go as high as 20,000 lbs.


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## KRAIT

Secur said:


> Everything that i mentioned is present in Blk 1 bro ... And the Chinese AESA was seen fitted on J10B weeks earlier ... The specifications of Blk 2 are KLJ xx , IFR , IRST and some more things ...
> 
> As for the WOT , I am too lazy to search for it ... It was here somewhere on the forum ... Will post it ...


Chinese AESA is still under development i think. But you may be right. 
As for lazy part, same here


----------



## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> I cant recall when i possibly read something as ridiculous as this ... JFT are sanction prone really ?
> 
> JFT is not under nappies ... Been in operational service for 2 years and being refined with every passing day ... Completed 10 000 sorties and has flown in WoT ... What else do you desire ?



 jf-17 still uses russian made engine.. don't you know that.. too bad for you.

As you don't understand the how critical is supply chains for a war.. I put a quote by Air chief marshal of India ... he said borrow, steal or do copy whatever to make critical parts indigenous. what a massive comment when we know that our supply lines are free from sanctions... now try to see from PAF point of view.. the two major jets are critically sanctioned prone.

Bombing against the militants and fighting against a airforce of the size of IAF is a different game.


----------



## Secur

Hobo1 said:


> JFT hopes to be as good as Mig29s. And you say it would be able to take on both Mirage 2000 and Mig29s
> PAF had F86 and F-104 Starfighter which were much better than Hunters and Gnats and we did not use Mig21 so extensively and still PAF could not stand against IAF.



The Mikoyan Director acknowledged the performance/capabilities of JFT w.r.t MIG 29 ... Check that one ...

PAF almost destroyed 1/3 of IAF in 1965 ... In 1971 , only the Eastern wing was dominated that too because there was only 1 squadron placed over there ... Western wing was a different story ... Check the wiki article ...


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## Secur

KRAIT said:


> Sukhoi upgradation to Super Sukhoi has AESA .
> Rafale/EFT offered to India will have AESA.
> LCA will be fitted with homegrown AESA.
> BTW its not only the AESA, but also the advanced avionics edge Europe and Russia have over China.



The gap is narrowing day by day , J 20 is an open example ... How many 5th generation aircraft projects does the Europeans have anyways ?


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## KRAIT

Secur said:


> Too bad , the Russians still supply it despite the massive military you purchase from them ...
> This is business . my friend ... Didn't your diplomats try hard to block that sale ? Did Russia pay any heed to it ?  and it doesn't matter , China's been buying these engines for years now ... Most of them have already been delivered
> 
> Yes i know , but you dont call a fully ready aircraft operational and bombing targets as being in nappies ? Do you ?


Actually India did succeed in this diplomatic act, but before Russia stop China , the engines were already committed by chinese. Now Chinese have their own engine program, you don't have to depend on it.


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## ziaulislam

KRAIT said:


> Sukhoi upgradation to Super Sukhoi has AESA .
> Rafale/EFT offered to India will have AESA.
> LCA will be fitted with homegrown AESA.
> 
> PAF have to think about future of their own and IAF.
> BTW its not only the AESA, but also the advanced avionics edge Europe and Russia have over China.



*there is a difference between will be and there.*

dont worry, to counter *your will be, we will be* having AESA in J-10 and next 50 thunders(100-150) thunders

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## Jade

Clam down guys;

The quantum of the purchase say that this for defensive purpose and for power projection in this region than any intention to attack anybody.


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## Secur

KRAIT said:


> Actually India did succeed in this diplomatic act, but before Russia stop China , the engines were already committed by chinese. Now Chinese have their own engine program, you don't have to depend on it.


 No bro , it was all over the news ... Even the Mikoyan company protested about the sale ... It wasn't good for their own exports ...


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Too bad , the Russians still supply it despite the massive military you purchase from them ...
> This is business . my friend ... Didn't your diplomats try hard to block that sale ? Did Russia pay any heed to it ?  and it doesn't matter , China's been buying these engines for years now ... Most of them have already been delivered
> 
> Yes i know , but you dont call a fully ready aircraft operational and bombing targets as being in nappies ? Do you ?




My dear friend, as I tried to tell you the importance of sanctioned prone supply lines at the time of WAR but I think you don't have the head to appreciate the fact.

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times


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## KRAIT

Secur said:


> The gap is narrowing day by day , J 20 is an open example ... How many 5th generation aircraft projects does the Europeans have anyways ?


They didn't have to, because of F-35 and EU union and NATO in which US will have 187 F-22 raptor. India, Russia and China are atleast 6 years behind to induct first 5th gen.
I agree with you on gap narrowing part, but at the same time India is also making progress to narrow its gap with China, yeah we are way behind but still reaching closer.


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## Hobo1

Secur said:


> The Mikoyan Director acknowledged the performance/capabilities of JFT w.r.t MIG 29 ... Check that one ...
> 
> PAF almost destroyed 1/3 of IAF in 1965 ... In 1971 , only the Eastern wing was dominated that too because there was only 1 squadron placed over there ... Western wing was a different story ... Check the wiki article ...


 
Mikoyan Director was making all this noise because he doesn't want any competition for Mig29s. If would suggest you check wiki, it full of stories how gnat after the war of 71 how Gnats were started to be called Sabre slayer and sabres were best fighters around that time. Mig21 were not that used by IAF probably since they still new and so of them were also kept aside for Chinese threat.


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> My dear friend, as I tried to tell you the importance of sanctioned prone supply lines at the time of WAR but I think you don't have the head to appreciate the fact.
> 
> Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times


 Just how can you sanction the engines bro ? Kill switches in RD 93 ? Is that what you are implying ? 

Shouldn't have sold the engines in the first place ... Action speak louder than words actually ...


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## KRAIT

ziaulislam said:


> *there is a difference between will be and there.*
> 
> dont worry, to counter *your will be, we will be* having AESA in J-10 and next 50 thunders(100-150) thunders


I already said that you are getting AESA and i also wished that you don't get it soon. But my wish wont change inevitable. 
Cheers


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## KRAIT

Guys don't bring history, it will derail the thread.

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## MilSpec

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't think India's decision is a solid one either and I don't see any timetables being met as well (lets face it till now none were met as well).
> 
> Indications are that the French were the lower bidders, which further indicates that the Indian financial crises played its role. The amount of INR that it would have cost India has exponentially increased since the rupee devalued. Moreover we still don't know if the Rafale can even take on the Su-30 MKI.
> 
> Pakistan needs to continue on its path of upgrading JF-17s and then moving to J-10s and J-20s.
> 
> I didn't quite understand the relevance of your Afghanistan comment.



sir,
out of the contenders for MMRCA, the two shortlisted a/c fulfilled the desired parameters set by the air force, and the lowest bidder was selected. It does not signifies indian financial crisis, lowest bidder often referred as L1 is always selected government issued tenders. This is standard operating procedure for any contract in PSU's and government contracts.

As far as rafale and Su 30MKI, the two are of different class, Super Su30 MKI upgrade proposes, AESA radar, RAM coatings upgraded IRST, Ramjet BVR r77 AE-MD will outclass rafale by a fair margin. Even in its current configuration MKI outguns everything in the subcontinent including the proposed newest arrival rafale in its current configuration. 

As for pakistan, I suspect there will be a surprise aircraft showing up in few years. the current plans of j17, j10 and the proposed new stealth fighter for PAF by china will provide ample deterrence for PAF to maintain the traditional balance.

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## Secur

beggingwalker said:


> @indians
> 
> Trust IAF and selection committee.


 Make it both ways bro  The MMRCA was going on for almost 6 years ... Surely the PAF may have thought something , No ?



sandy_3126 said:


> As far as rafale and Su 30MKI, the two are of different class, Super Su30 MKI upgrade proposes, AESA radar, RAM coatings upgraded IRST, Ramjet BVR r77 AE-MD will outclass rafale by a fair margin. Even in its current configuration MKI outguns everything in the subcontinent including the proposed newest arrival rafale in its current configuration.


 China has Su 30's right ? Whats the difference ? How do you claim this utter dominance in the subcontinent ? When does that begin though the upgradation process ?


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## ziaulislam

in 2004-05 PAF came to know about indian MRCA when it was unoffcially announced.
at that time paf decided to see what to do to counter it. so we heard rumours of gripen (cabinent approved it), rafale and even typhoon.
in ned it was decided that 50-60 odd F-16s will do the trick as they are still one of the most advance jets.
however after the earth quack PAF got it sights on j-10 and decided that with improvements in avionics J-10b can potentially be an excellent aircraft. 

second what PAF decided in 2007 time that instead of buying European jets, it would be far better to buy avionic packages, which would mean western weapons and avionics with pakistani airframe..

the european avionic would have meant that essentail thunder would be at par to any westeern jets..however this was later dropped due to two reasons
1. money issue but more importantly successful Indian lobby to stop the french
2. the surprising improvement in Chinese avionics, as they had shown exponential growth (not surprsing as they are now working on fifth gen aircraft)


so PAF has already planned long bnefore for this MRCA. it has done so very good. 
we will have thunder as our work horse and f-16s/j-10s as strike aircrfts


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## ziaulislam

majesticpankaj said:


> My dear friend, as I tried to tell you the importance of sanctioned prone supply lines at the time of WAR but I think you don't have the head to appreciate the fact.
> 
> Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times


regarding engines china has already received over 500 of rd-93 engines.
in future ws-13 could be used without major changes to airframe


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## KRAIT

Secur said:


> Make it both ways bro  The MMRCA was going on for almost 6 years ... Surely the PAF may have thought something , No ?
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------
> 
> China has Su 30's right ? Whats the difference ? How do you claim this utter dominance in the subcontinent ?



Hehehehe... nice.... but as i read in one of the thread after signing of contract, first 18 off-shelf aircraft have to be delivered in 36 months.

Chinese Su-30 are comparatively less capable than SU-30MKI, because of israeli avionics and all. Only problem with Su-30MKI is its rcs.


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Just how can you sanction the engines bro ? Kill switches in RD 93 ? Is that what you are implying ?
> 
> Shouldn't have sold the engines in the first place ... Action speak louder than words actually ...



My dear friend you should know how much time a jet has to rest after one hour of flying and the engine replacement require.


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## beggingwalker

*I have question.*

what will be the arms package and what will be the cost??
Mica missiles cost was near 1 billion and you can estimate nearly 4-5 billion for package of rafale.

so total deal will be near 25 billion if we include every thing coz there will be 200 rafales for 20 billion.


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## Secur

beggingwalker said:


> you couldn't purchase or prepare for mmrca in 6 years..that your mistake or thks waar on terror
> now almost western market is either closed or near to close for you.now you can rely on chinese copies


 JFT's and J 10 B were planned ... New AWACS planes were purchased ... Aren't 8 of these EW planes enough w.r.t to our geography ? Net centric approach , C4 systems anyone ? How can you say that nobody did their homework and somehow were dumbfounded when they came to know about Rafale being selected ? 

I know about the Western aspect , the shitty thing is that those Chinese copies are almost on par / equal relatively to the ones derived from assuming you are referring to J 11 which have nothing to do with PAF ...


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## beggingwalker

Secur said:


> JFT's and J 10 B were planned ... New AWACS planes were purchased ... Aren't 8 of these EW planes enough w.r.t to our geography ? Net centric approach , C4 systems anyone ? How can you say that nobody did their homework and somehow were dumbfounded when they came to know about Rafale being selected ?
> 
> I know about the Western aspect , the shitty thing is that those Chinese copies are almost on par / equal relatively to the ones derived from assuming you are referring to J 11 which have nothing to do with PAF ...



ok my bad


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## VCheng

majesticpankaj said:


> My dear friend you should know *how much time a jet has to rest after one hour of flying* and the engine replacement require.



Que?


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## Edevelop

WOW, 31 pages of posts in less than a day and most of them are Indians...
Why couldn't we have these discussions before when we knew that India is going to pick one of the mmrca?


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## KRAIT

cb4 said:


> WOW, 31 pages of posts in less than a day and most of them are Indians...
> Why couldn't we have these discussions before when we knew that India is going to pick one of the mmrca?


Its entertaining to discuss on various scenarios, People also discussed about EFT too....


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> My dear friend you should know how much time a jet has to rest after one hour of flying and the engine replacement require.


 My dear friend should know how many engines are already delivered ! 500 engines for 150~200 ... Is it bad ?


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## beggingwalker

cb4 said:


> WOW, 31 pages of posts in less than a day and most of them are Indians...
> Why couldn't we have these discussions before when we knew that India is going to pick one of the mmrca?



you already had disucssions but it was desired to happen one day


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## KRAIT

Secur said:


> My dear friend should know how many engines are already delivered ! 500 engines for 150~200 ... Is it bad ?


Yaar koi naya aspect laate hain, engines se bore ho gaye...... Network centric ability par koi idea...

P.S. - Kahan chale jate ho yaar baar baar..


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## Jungibaaz

Hobo1 said:


> f-16s/j-10 against Mighty Su30mki+Rafale+Mig29+Mirage 2000
> 
> PAF would be sending lambs to the slaughter if they dare to cross border with these old toys. Moreover India is no longer interested in confronting Pakistan. Making Pak people aware of corrupt PAK armed forces is best cost effective way to cut PAF and PAK army to size.



F-16 52, JF-17 Block I-III and J-10B.

Please tell me how those can't face up to IAF.


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## beggingwalker

Secur said:


> " God's gift to Aviation " ... Nothing comes close right ? Not even the J10's ?
> 
> Mig 29/ Mirage 2000 can be countered with JFT's ... What old toys are you referring to ?



those upgraded mirages will be able to take on your f-16 block 52 and upgraded mig 29 is separate problem for you
and leave sukhois from the list.


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## Secur

beggingwalker said:


> those upgraded mirages will be able to take on your f-16 block 52 and upgraded mig 29 is separate problem for you
> and leave sukhois from the list.


 upgraded ? JFT's will be upgraded too ... Every single aircraft is upgraded so ? 

Why ?


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## Hobo1

Secur said:


> " God's gift to Aviation " ... Nothing comes close right ? Not even the J10's ?
> 
> Mig 29/ Mirage 2000 can be countered with JFT's ... What old toys are you referring to ?


 
{old toys}F16s and an Chinese clone of F16 i.e yr mighty J10. And not to forget PAF still not any of J10s. Don't know whether even any contract for 10s has been signed or not.


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## MilSpec

Secur said:


> Make it both ways bro  The MMRCA was going on for almost 6 years ... Surely the PAF may have thought something , No ?
> 
> China has Su 30's right ? Whats the difference ? How do you claim this utter dominance in the subcontinent ? When does that begin though the upgradation process ?



sir, 

Look up the difference between Su 30 MKK and Su 30 MKI, there has quite a few discussions on the same. 

Upgradation process, intergration of brahmos has already begin, Initially IAF is reluctant to change from N0011M BARS to Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA radars but the first tranche of radar upgrade will start in 2012, 
IAF's reluctance is due to the idea of integrating the Epolet A or Irbis to get comonality with PAK FA for the newer MKI's.

K172 Novator is highly classified and there is no acknowledgement of its existence as such, but you can take your guess on it. There are active planes for accommodating Nirbhay on the newer MKI.

three tranches of MKI upgrade will begin in 2012, and currently India operates 160-175 MKI; so another 100 SU 30MKI are too be produced to new variants specs.


Although addition of rafale imho is not going to change any equation between Air power of both countries. Rafale is bringing indian Sqdn strength to required numbers, its not bringing anything new to the table, hence IAF fanboys can relax

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## Jungibaaz

Hobo1 said:


> {old toys}F16s and an Chinese clone of F16 i.e yr mighty J10. And not to forget PAF still not any of J10s. Don't whether even any contract for 10s has been signed or not.



Old toys? Your knowledge of all of this it seems it comparable to a brick. 

F-16 will either be new Block 52 or upgraded to Block 52 standard, capable of dealing with any jets IAF has currently.

J-10 an F-16 clone? At this point I don't know if you're trolling or just stupid.

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## Bl[i]tZ

Ok, read the thread. The consensus is F-16 52, JF-17 Block I-III and J-10B. I'm not sure how effective it is, so no point commenting. 

By the way, has Pakistan engaged in the Chinise stealth fighter program, any MoU? PAK FA is going in the Russian air force in 2014-16 period and India will be inducting it soon thereafter as the FGFA platform.


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## Secur

Hobo1 said:


> {old toys}F16s and an Chinese clone of F16 i.e yr mighty J10. And not to forget PAF still not any of J10s. Don't know whether even any contract for 10s has been signed or not.



How did you arrive at that brilliant conclusion in the first place ?  J10's a copy of F 16 

The contract was signed back in 2007 FYI ...

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## Gandhi G in da house

arent you guys buying a bunch of JF-17s and J-10s from China ? So whats the issue ?


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## Edevelop

I want to make this damn clear here for Indians

This is general Indian opinion here about PAF:

JF-17 is Chinese
J-10 is Chinese
F-16 is American.

In the end, to back stab us, You keep saying "oh Pakistan is dependent on China for everything--loosers!"

Lets take a look at your side shall we?

LCA is not 100% Indian
Mig-29 is Russian
Su-30 is Russian
Mirage 2000 is French
Rafale is French

What is it that you have purely Indeginous? Even we Pakistanis have the right to say that you are dependent on certain countries for your defence.

It would be a lot better if these statements are not said against one another. Its seriously a piss off

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## beggingwalker

cb4 said:


> I want to make this damn clear here for Indians
> 
> This is general Indian opinion here about PAF:
> 
> JF-17 is Chinese
> J-10 is Chinese
> F-16 is American.
> 
> In the end, to back stab us, You keep saying "oh Pakistan is dependent on China for everything--loosers!"
> 
> Lets take a look at your side shall we?
> 
> LCA is not 100% Indian
> Mig-29 is Russian
> Su-30 is Russian
> Mirage 2000 is French
> Rafale is French
> 
> What is it that you have purely Indeginous? Even we Pakistanis have the right to say that you are dependent on certain countries for your defence.
> 
> It would be a lot better if these statements are not said against one another. Its seriously a piss off



neither french nor russians sanctioned us for providing equpments
same goes to china also for u. but f-16 says smthing else
and LCA again have some israeli equipments

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## KRAIT

Are yaar bashing band karo faltu ki, hum logon ne bhi sab kuch ghar main nahin banaya.
BTW
Jisse pata hai usse ye sab jaan ne ki jarurat nahi
Jo nahin samjhna chahta usko aap kitna bhi bata do fark nahin padega... Just ignore....

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## Hobo1

Jungibaaz said:


> F-16 52, JF-17 Block I-III and J-10B.
> 
> Please tell me how those can't face up to IAF.


 
Rafale and latest Sukhois India is buying is costing over 100 million much more costly than what PAF has or hopes to have and every other nation which is looking for 4gen fighter is going for either Typhoon or Rafale. Which certainly means that these fighter are better than these 80's era fighter. IAF is much smarter than PAF since they went for Gnat and Mig21 when US was willing to give us Starfighter. So it is safe to assume IAF is much better positioned compared to PAF.


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## Edevelop

beggingwalker said:


> neither french nor russians sanctioned us for providing equpments
> same goes to china also for u. but f-16 says smthing else
> and LCA again have some israeli equipments


ahh but the U.S sanctioned you as well, when you were woking on your nuclear program. Don't worry they sanctioned us as well for the same reason. But the real question is, have they continued to sanction us? The answer is NO, we jus purchased new F-16 Block 52s + more are going to be delivered during this month...


----------



## ziaulislam

Bl[i]tZ;2551397 said:


> Ok, read the thread. The consensus is F-16 52, JF-17 Block I-III and J-10B. I'm not sure how effective it is, so no point commenting.
> 
> By the way, has Pakistan engaged in the Chinise stealth fighter program, any MoU? PAK FA is going in the Russian air force in 2014-16 period and India will be inducting it soon thereafter as the FGFA platform.


pakistan not engaged in J-20 in anyway. as it was clarified by PAF chief

but rumours supported by an MoU that was signed previous year to develop stealth fighter is there. May be its a new single jet platform.


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## VCheng

*Please keep in mind the effect of bilateral nuclear deterrence. All the rest pales in comparison.*


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## gubbi

cb4 said:


> JF-17 is Chinese
> J-10 is Chinese
> F-16 is American.



A Fact.



> LCA is not 100% Indian
> Mig-29 is Russian *with many Indian modifications*
> Su-30*MKI* is Russian *with Israeli, French and Indian components.*
> Mirage 2000 is French *again with many Israeli and Indian components*.
> Rafale is French


There corrected it for you, but Another fact nonetheless.

So whats the problem. Indigenous in Indian parlance means developed mostly inhouse but if we get better foreign help, then good! Atleast we aint blatantly copying without thinking, or buying copied stuff.


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## KRAIT

ziaulislam said:


> pakistan not engaged in J-20 in anyway. as it was clarified by PAF chief
> 
> but rumours supported by an MoU that was signed previous year to develop stealth fighter is there. May be its a new single jet platform.


Rumours are there that China have agreed to give J-20 to pakistan. Any confirmation, if yes, kindly post the link.


----------



## Jungibaaz

Hobo1 said:


> Rafale and latest Sukhois India is buying is costing over 100 million much more than what PAF has or hopes to have and every other nation which is looking for 4gen fighter is going for either Typhoon or Rafale. Which certainly means that these fighter are better than these 80's era fighter. IAF is much smarter than PAF since they went for Gnat and Mig21 when US was willing to give us Starfighter. So it is safe to assume IAF is much better positioned compared to PAF.



lad... higher costs ensure nothing.
Chinese aircraft come cheap without strings attached, I don't see how that is a drawback?

Yes, PAF doesn't have as much money as IAF and so we can't match you in terms of quantity, but PAF is more then capable of defending itself.


----------



## gubbi

VCheng said:


> *Please keep in mind the effect of bilateral nuclear deterrence. All the rest pales in comparison.*


That didnt deter Pakistani misadventure in Kargil nor the subsequent Indian response. Big Missiles and Nuclear 'deterrents' are simply phallic symbols of a country's "pride". Nothing more. Unless ruled by a lunatic or such weapons fall in the hands of delusional ultra-nationalists or religious fanatics, noone, even if borderline insane, is going to use them. Period.

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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Secur said:


> My dear friend should know how many engines are already delivered ! 500 engines for 150~200 ... Is it bad ?



You have a source for that?


----------



## beggingwalker

KRAIT said:


> Rumours are there that China have agreed to give J-20 to pakistan. Any confirmation, if yes, kindly post the link.



plz refer to the post of s-10 in thread.He mentioned it clearly that these planes are not cake walk for pakistan and they are not in charity


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## KRAIT

gubbi said:


> That didnt deter Pakistani misadventure in Kargil nor the subsequent Indian response. Big Missiles and N
> uclear 'deterrents' are simply phallic symbols of a country's "pride". Nothing more. Unless ruled by a lunatic or such weapons fall in the hands of delusional ultra-nationalists or religious fanatics, noone, even if borderline insane, is going to use them. Period.


Bhai bas karo, ab kargil le aaye aap. Ban hona chahte of kya...? Stay on topic.


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## Big Boss

cb4 said:


> I want to make this damn clear here for Indians
> 
> This is general Indian opinion here about PAF:
> 
> JF-17 is Chinese
> J-10 is Chinese
> F-16 is American.
> 
> In the end, to back stab us, You keep saying "oh Pakistan is dependent on China for everything--loosers!"
> 
> Lets take a look at your side shall we?
> 
> LCA is not 100% Indian
> Mig-29 is Russian
> Su-30 is Russian
> Mirage 2000 is French
> Rafale is French
> 
> What is it that you have purely Indeginous? Even we Pakistanis have the right to say that you are dependent on certain countries for your defence.
> 
> It would be a lot better if these statements are not said against one another. Its seriously a piss off


 
LCA is not 100% Indian = By 2017 we will have it 100% (engine) made in India.

Mig-29 is Russian = These are just few aircraft left which are being upgraded and arrangement for spares by Russia to make them in India.

Su-30 is Russian = Now India is manufacturing Su-30 mki completely 100% Made in India from raw materil. Hence we are not dependent on Russia. 

Mirage 2000 is French = These are also few aircrafts even they are being upgraded and we are not dependent on these to defend ourselves.

Rafale is French = we will be getting full 100% ToT including source code and it will be made in India too.

IAF is and will depend on Su-30mki + Rafale + LCA and all of these will be 100% made in India. We will not be dependent on any country for defending ourselves.

What about PAF??????????

I think we all know the truth.

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## VCheng

gubbi said:


> That didnt deter Pakistani misadventure in Kargil nor the subsequent Indian response. ..........



Sure, small loco-regional flareups may still occur, but all-out war will be prevented due to said deterrence for quite some time yet, until economic constraints change the picture.

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## gubbi

KRAIT said:


> Bhai bas karo, ab kargil le aaye aap. Ban hona chahte of kya...? Stay on topic.



Kargil is relevant given how IAF utilized delta winged Mirage 2000 in precision strike roles. That particular performance of Mirages in the conflict impressed IAF brass so much that they wanted to order more Mirage 2000s. Unfortunately the production lines in France had closed and so GoI initiated this MMRCA tender. Rest is history.

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------




cb4 said:


> i will see what is there that we don't do $hit in



ROFL. Dont get me started, dimwit! Keep believing what you want to believe.


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## Jungibaaz

Hobo1 said:


> Keep dreaming.



Please prove me wrong, unless you can do so, keep your mouth shut on subjects which you have little or no knowledge of. 



> But it has high resemblance to F16.


How so? Yes I know they both have wings 



> J10 even if it is totally original Chinese design is no match for Rafale.


How so? 

The J-10B, has extensive upgrades, it will be superior to PAF's F-16 Block 52s. 



> Who is interested in it beside poor countries.



Pretty sure folks used to say that about the Su-27 and Mig-21, AFAIK Su-27 has evolved into one of the best AC on the planet.


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## Bhim

Jungibaaz said:


> lad... higher costs ensure nothing.
> Chinese aircraft come cheap without strings attached, I don't see how that is a drawback?
> 
> *Yes, PAF doesn't have as much money as IAF and so we can't match you in terms of quantity, but PAF is more then capable of defending itself.*



I think this guy has summed it up..
Pakistan at present has no option, but don't under estimate.


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## beggingwalker

VCheng said:


> Sure, small loco-regional flareups may still occur, but all-out war will be prevented due to said deterrence for quite some time yet, until economic constraints change the picture.



Dont worry,only minor flare ups will occur in future.what you can do if dont have capability to go for conventional warfare?
and use of nukes is last drop


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## gubbi

VCheng said:


> Sure, *small loco-regional flareups may still occur*, but all-out war will be prevented due to said deterrence for quite some time yet, until economic constraints change the picture.


You need to recollect that India went all out on Kargil, albeit well within its borders. And milked political and diplomatic mileage out of it for all it was worth! A similar scenario may play out in the future as well. But given that Indian economy is more robust than Pakistan's the conflict will definitely end, overwhelmingly, in India's favor (Indian markets were very bullish during and post Kargil conflict!). Not to mention that India may decide to take advantage of prevailing situation to expand or rather push and end the conflict in parts of Pakistani territory. 
Doesnt this look eerily familiar to a Blitzkrieg like doctrine doing the rounds?


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## VCheng

gubbi said:


> ......... Not to mention that India may decide to take advantage of prevailing situation to expand or rather push and end the conflict in parts of Pakistani territory...............



India may not be able to decide alone, and will need to take into consideration many other important aspects before anything like that can be considered at all.


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## gubbi

VCheng said:


> India may not be able to decide alone, and will need to take into consideration many other important aspects before anything like that can be considered at all.


Exactly, thats why I said "prevailing situation". But even then, no nukes unless Taliban rules in Pakistan.


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## beggingwalker

VCheng said:


> India may not be able to decide alone, and will need to take into consideration many other important aspects before anything like that can be considered at all.



dont you think your western border will be next station of clash?


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## Hobo1

Jungibaaz said:


> lad... *higher costs ensure nothing.*
> Chinese aircraft come cheap without strings attached, I don't see how that is a drawback?
> 
> Yes, PAF doesn't have as much money as IAF and so we can't match you in terms of quantity, but PAF is more then capable of defending itself.


 
So according every body from Saudis,UAE, Indians, Brazilians are mad for going for costly European fighter. 
If you think yr teens and JFT would be able to stand against Rafale and Latest gen Sukhoi 30
then I can only say _Dil ko behlane ko ghalib ye kayal accha hai_.

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## VCheng

gubbi said:


> Exactly, thats why I said "prevailing situation". But even then, no nukes unless Taliban rules in Pakistan.



Yes, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification.


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## Jungibaaz

Hobo1 said:


> So according every body from Saudis,UAE, Indians, Brazilians are mad for going for costly European fighter.
> If you think yr teens and JFT would be able to stand against Rafale and Latest gen Sukhoi 30
> then I can only say _Dil ko behlane ko ghalib ye kayal accha hai_.



Hobo, I mean a higher price guarantees nothing.
And that PAF is capable of fighting off IAF without a doubt in my mind.

Please prove me wrong if you can. I know just how much you know and how much you think you know... I can tell you now that it aint enough.

But please do start, it's always good to bash noobs who punch above their weight.


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## VCheng

beggingwalker said:


> dont you think your western border will be next station of clash?



Not the border, but a low level endemic internal civil war-like situation is far more likely I fear.


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## mkg00179504

Hobo1 said:


> f-16s/j-10 against Mighty Su30mki+Rafale+Mig29+Mirage 2000
> 
> PAF would be sending lambs to the slaughter if they dare to cross border with these old toys. Moreover India is no longer interested in confronting Pakistan. Making Pak people aware of corrupt PAK armed forces is best cost effective way to cut PAF and PAK army to size.


 Tell this to your babus and super mighty Indian military who didn't had the courage to carry out air strikes in Pakistan after Mumbai attacks where there were no F16 block 52,no AWACS,No refuelers, no BVR,no modern JF17 and J10B, no modern radars all old stuff.And still you were running to the US,Russia and other countries around the world for political support and even send US joint chief of staff chairman to Pakistan to make sure that PAF wont retaliate.Because your babus knew that PAF has the capabilities to take you a decade back.Now just image the destruction PAF will cause you with all these things and upgrades.Stop day dreaming, J10B will be a surprise for IAF.No body knows its true specs and one of the reason is that IAF was not decided with MMRCA.The guys sitting at Air headquarters are aware of every singe move that you make.Mark my words J10B will be a big surprise for IAF and a new headache they have to deal with.

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## gubbi

On Topic for Rafale:

*General Palomeros: "The Rafale is the best aircraft in the world"*


> France Soir , Feb 1
> 
> EXCLUSIVE. By the time New Delhi has selected the Rafale, General Jean-Paul Palomeros, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, told France-Soir in what the French intervention in Libya has demonstrated the qualities of the aircraft to potential buyers.
> 
> _F-S: Is Operation Harmattan, Libya - during which the Rafale was involved - has played a decisive role in this export success?_
> 
> _General Jean-Paul Palomeros:_ It is clear that *the success of the Air Force and the Rafale during Harmattan were studied by every army in the world.* My counterparts in other countries want to talk with me. They are surprised that we were able to send the Rafale as quickly to perform all types of missions. This was a demonstration of the versatility of the aircraft.
> 
> _F.-S. Can you elaborate on these missions?_
> 
> _J. Gal-PP:_ We had to *both impose a flight ban over Libya, help ground forces against Gaddafi* who were at the gates of Benghazi *and obtain information on enemy military plan*. On March 19, 2011, *from the first patrol, these three objectives were achieved*. In addition to the imposition of the no flight zone, we used our arms of precision and fed our data for the following tasks. *Thanxs to its warning and protective ground/air systems, the Rafale was able to intervene without destroying in advance all the Libyan anti-aircraft facilities, including missiles ramps which for us was the most worrying threat.*
> 
> _F.-S. You have been directly involved in negotiations to sell the Rafale with the Indian authorities. What was your role alongside engineers, commercial and political and French?_
> 
> _J. Gal-PP:_ I play my role as Chief of Staff. *The partnership with the Indian army is old. For years, we do exercises with the Indian Air Force (IAF) which uses Mirage 2000 an aircraft very much appreciated in its ranks.* My role is that this relationship is maintained at the highest level, by promoting the qualities of our equipements and those of the training of our pilots.
> 
> _F.-S. And for the Rafale, specifically?_
> 
> _J. Gal-PP:_ to show the operational qualities of the aircraft, its benefits in terms of availability and maintenance. *The availability of the fleet* is the responsibility of the Chief of Staff. It *was 95% during Operation Harmattan*. In this area, France has set a high bar. *To maintain a Rafale continuously, we need seven or eight mechanics.* For some of our competitors is almost twice. The cost of maintenance of the aircraft is thereby reduced. It was one of the essential criteria incorporated into the design of the aircraft.
> 
> _F.-S. What is this sale going to change for the Air Force?_
> 
> _Gal J.-PP_ The main interest for us is to work with the armed forces of friendly countries which have the same weapons systems than ours. The Indian Air Force will bring us an original feedback that will allow us to develop the capacity of the unit. That's what happened with the crews of Qatari Mirages that participated with us in operations in Libya. Finally,by increasing the numbers, it will reduce production costs and maintenance. Yesterday, one explained that the Rafale was very expensive. He has demonstrated today that he is probably the best aircraft in the world and in the end, it is not expensive.



*Source*


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## TaimiKhan

On the aerial side, make J-10s & F-16s as their frontline fighters with JF-17s giving them good support through latest tech. Also start thinking of getting the Chinese 5th Gen fighter, in the single engine category. 

On the other side, invest in good net-centric capability and if possible and some solution out there, invest in anti-stealth capability with the Chinese.

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## SQ8

gubbi said:


> noone, even if borderline insane, is going to use them. Period.



A fairly dangerous assumption is it not?


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## Bhim

beggingwalker said:


> huh...........
> 
> 
> @topic,
> 
> another mmrca will be issued with 80 fighters in 2 years.it will surely be f-35



Noo, I think it would be EF.. David Cameroon aint gonna let it go so easily.


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## ziaulislam

KRAIT said:


> Rumours are there that China have agreed to give J-20 to pakistan. Any confirmation, if yes, kindly post the link.


i said PAFis not intersted in J20 yet
its only last year they had a MoU for developing stealth aircraft (which media took as stealth version of thunder) . we dont know what the aircraft is, through any source but rumors quote it a single jet stealth engine J-2x


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## Storm Force

TOO MANY PIE IN THE SKY SOLUTIONS being mentioned in this thread.

90% of them are unrealistic for PAF and their limited resources & options.

Expanding the F16 fleet is a DANGEROUS move considering they will sanction your fleet at a DROP OF THE HAT. This was the very reason IAF declined F35 F16 & F18... too much baggage & intrusions & USA limitations on our use....

j20 A 5TH gen fighter from china is a REAL PIE in the sky until 2025 ( BE REALISTIC) AT LEAST. the have one prototype flying today 

Somebody mentioned 300 thunders by 2015. GET REAL FOLKS. Paf receved 36 thunders since 2009/ .. more importantly to combat high tech rafale you need a hi tech option. 


French weapons ARE the preferred choice as we saw with PAF preferred thunder upgrade programme being RC400 & MICA BVR from france dassult programme recently. DID NOT GO ANYWHERE reason one of COST or indian pressure many suggested.
I think the technology level and high performance is very appreciated by pak top brass

Russia & israel id a NON starter

This leaves the ubber expensive TYPHOON from EADS at $100m each 

OR BACK TO THE CHINEASE prehaps the only TRUSTED ally Pakistan have today

BUT HOW GOOD IS CHINEASE AEROSPACE wen compared to EADS OR DASSULT 

Rafale will give india a WORLD CLASS TOT 
new generation aesa radars
5th ew spectra suites
ramjet bvr missles like meteore ans long range stand off strike weapons like scalp 
NO SANCTIONS 
Guranteed spares even in war ..

FC20 nobody knows for real wat level this may be. 

The design looks good ALBEIT only single engined... 

HOW MANY FC20 WILL PAF NEED and when will they come at wat cost and wat weapons package..

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## aanshu001

I had taken few hours to read this entire tread from post one to 513 (it take time) what helps me a bottle o Vat 69 in a peaceful guest house ( Cormondal Heritage) just on the beach of Pondicherry, Not very expensive.

Well what I realized 

1. Indian posters are calming that we can blow PAF.
2. Pakistani friends are saying they are good enough to teach lesson to IAF ( home grown plain , up-gradations, Chinese support & mighty trained pilot.) 

Let see how modern warfare works ( In case of Air war)

1. Hardware ( Planes which includes radar, EW suit and other goodies) 
2. Decoration ( missiles, bombs, jammers etc.)
3. Ground support ( Air fields, ground based radars, spares, support staff, war time coordination, etc, etc)
4. Pilot training ( Now question is how to train them, I think best think is war games is next to wars and then modern simulators and real fly hours).
5. AWACS and Set-lite 
6. SAM system ( they are really nasty u know) 
7. Refueler 
8. Most important surprised *fuel * to run the war coz plane can not fly without them 

well so it not all about planes so let get one point to another, if we check each points IAF had upper hand in all fields ( please free to disagree and help me to increase my knowledge). 

And my dear friends when our a$$ is on fire no friends come to help. In 65 USSR has not helped us as we wont and in 71 China left u ------ u can understand what I am saying. So i u think any one is there to fight your war than u plz remember 71. Coz in 71 only USSR & Sri Lanka had supported us in UN but now is a different ball game

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## Abu Zolfiqar

anathema said:


> Abu - WindJammer did not make any point. His point was what we call bookish logic . To the say the least "If Rafale is equal to 2 * JF 17 - then PAF will buy 2 JF17's for every Rafale that India buys" ..Sorry - it just doesnt work that away. I am pasting the reply to him. You can judge.
> 
> _"WJ - one problem in that thought process . Taking your example above. Assuming price of 1 Rafale = Price of 4 JF17's.
> 
> IAF is/will spend $20B on this acquisition. Will PAF spend $20B to acquire 4*JF17 - to match up with Rafale numbers ? If PAF has that kind of money then why wont they end up selecting plane like gripen or EF itself ?
> 
> So even though logically your reasoning may work - but practically and in reality - it may not !!"_



''bookish logic''? you come up with that yourself? 


and no -- Pakistan doesnt need to spend ''$20b to acquire 4*JF17 - to match up with Rafale numbers''

its a defensive force with sufficient offensive-defence capability....has been and will be for the time to come.....its past track record against indian intruders is fairly extensive. And that despite embargos and much smaller size. One would think that india ought to have decimated our Air Force, but unfortunately for our enemy --they were never able to. 




> Further more - More JF17's - More pilots - More infrastructure - More maintenance. So you are looking at mothball effect.



i have no idea what you're going on about here. First of all, what is ''mothball effect'' 

second of all, JFT's will likely comprise the backbone -the workhorse of the PAF for years to come. So OBVIOUSLY all these 3 things you mentioned would rise. 

the iaf --given its shortage of skilled pilots --and given its large acquisitions will likely see the exact same thing...so what point are your trying to make exactly ?


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## Storm Force

Currently The hi tech passive stealth capability and spectra ew suite makes rafale the best strike platform in operation today.

This is why in LIBYA it was rafale jamming libyan sam sites, libyan radars, leading the knock out blows.

THE OLDER F16/52 & MIRAGE2000-5 FOLLOWED behind to do the donkey work 

Are PAF early warning and sam systems good enough to deal with 4.5 generation omnirole fighters


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## Peaceful Civilian

After 12 years atleast you selected aircraft 
Effect of delayed 12 year decision means You are paying 35% more Price.

Even assume that you get 5th generation Fighter in next 5 year(which seems not possible). World is change now. AWACS can be game changer. It can see first before PAK FA or other modern jet enters in space. SO, more time for our jet to tackle her move.
By the way.at this time there is high possibility our economy will improve as it was in 2005, we would be producing JFT,2,3,4 blocks. More j10bs and J2x program.

No need to worry about rafale. J17 blocks can take care.

For this time, Economy, Economy and economy. Soon, we can produce beautiful gadgets

Options for PAF ARE
At-least get 12 AWACS till 2016 because more blocks of jf17 and j10 will come. 


.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> Currently The hi tech passive stealth capability and spectra ew suite makes rafale the best strike platform in operation today.
> 
> This is why in LIBYA it was rafale jamming libyan sam sites, libyan radars, leading the knock out blows.
> 
> THE OLDER F16/52 & MIRAGE2000-5 FOLLOWED behind to do the donkey work
> 
> Are PAF early warning and sam systems good enough to deal with 4.5 generation omnirole fighters



PAF in conjunction with ground-based air defence would assume that role just fine....MANPADS like our RBS-70 (we can discuss other unmanned SAM systems / fire and forget systems etc. in the relevant threads) enable anti-aircraft units at the tactical level to perform the following tasks: attrition in depth and over a wide area of enemy air units operating at a low level (i.e. area defence) ; defence of the units and facilities of own ground forces (i.e. point defence) ; seal off of low-level air corridors which could be used by enemy combat planes attempting to evade own radar defences (i.e. plugging the gaps in own air defences)

In the case of area defence, Pakistan would have no problem to break up, harass and destroy attacking enemy indian air formations or else to force them up into the higher altitudes where they can be tackled under the best possible conditions by our interceptors --which will be waiting calmly for them

assuming Pakistani AF has the homefield advantage and is defending, your Rafales or whatever else you throw our way will just become the same things your Migs, Hunters and Mysteres became in 1965......mere cannon fodder, target practice.

followed by fantastic fireworks show

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## Peaceful Civilian

Storm Force said:


> Which economy is this..
> 
> the last time i checked you people are on your knees financially... and hardly any gdp growth for years and years.
> 
> What exactly is a jft 2 3 & 4 suppose to be lol ... (i get block 1 to work properly first)
> 
> at least be realistic civillian



Don't worry, our economy will get PACE as this is Last year of the government. No chance of this government again. You can read any international survey if you want. And we will kick out these bloody politicians. This is confirmed.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> Which economy is this..
> 
> the last time i checked you people are on your knees financially...



no we arent....IMF loans are due and Pakistan, in the interests of meeting its debt obligations on time (which it ALWAYS has) does not have money to spare. Doesnt mean we are ''on our knees financially'' 




> and hardly any gdp growth for years and years.



hardly any growth, but there is growth nevertheless --even in our worst form. Better than no growth. The economy is still growing, not shrinking. 

Years and years? We were among the top performers in the entire Asian continent less than a decade ago and there's no reason why we wont achieve the same again. Not the proper place to discuss this topic though.




> What exactly is a jft 2 3 & 4 suppose to be lol ...



so i suppose all the analysts (non-Pakistani ones) at Farnborough and Izmir were just crazy.......let me guess, they were on ISI payroll right?




> (i get block 1 to work properly first)



despite its very young age, it's working great! And future ones will be working even better 

fraction of the cost; yet similar capabilities as modern western fighters that cost 3-4 times as much




> at least be realistic civillian



i know this wasnt directed at me.....but how silly to see an indian civilian call out a Pakistani civilian on a Pakistan Defence Forum........you and your indo people enjoy a lot of rights here to be yapping.

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## newdelhinsa

What the hell Indian Posters are doing here. Let Pakistan sought it out. Within next 10 years Pakistan will be back to normal, be able to afford all good war machines. Then India will be adjusting things around to counter Pakistani capabilities. Its a game of cat and mouse and going to be like this forever. 

The Important point at present is that Pakistanis have started thinking about contingencies and future planes to find parity with IAF, thus Indians can relax for a while now. But the Irony here with Indian posters is that they are not only tipping Pakistani friends with good or bad suggestions but getting banned and trading harsh words from their counterparts. 

Inducting a new jet was long due for IAF and many precious lives were lost because of the delay.

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## gubbi

Oscar said:


> A fairly dangerous assumption is it not?



Given the context of what VCheng and I were discussing - a limited flareup, I think not. And given India's interest in Pakistan not face an existential threat, I think not. But then again, there are much more smarter brains in Indian bureaucracy who have played out various scenarios and would know what to expect given the conditions of the day. Diplomacy would be more than enough to safeguard India's interests vis-a-vis Pakistan. Isnt that one of the reasons why India did not attack Pakistan post 26/11?

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## Pak47

Indian Air Force world Records!!

Indian pilots better than any chinese or pakistani out there..

THIS IS WHY!!


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## sancho

Windjammer said:


> *PAF Block-52s equipped for SEAD and other special missions*.




*Sorry but that's not correct!*



> Block 50D/52D Wild Weasel F-16CJ (CJ means block 50) comes in C-Model (1 seat) and D-Model (2 seat) versions. *It is best recognized for its ability to carry the AGM-88 HARM and the AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System (HTS) in the suppression of enemy air defenses [SEAD] mission. The HTS allows HARM to be employed in the range-known mode providing longer range shots with greater target specificity.This specialized version of the F-16, which can also carry the ALQ-119 Electronic Jamming Pod for self protection* , became the sole provider for Air Force SEAD missions when the F-4G Wild Weasel was retired from the Air Force inventory. The lethal SEAD mission now rests solely on the shoulders of the F-16 Harm Targeting System. Although F-18s and EA-6Bs are HARM capable, the F-16 provides the ability to use the HARM in its most effective mode. The original concept called for teaming the F-15 Precision Direction Finding (PDF) and the F-16 HTS. Because this teaming concept is no longer feasible, the current approach calls for the improvement of the HTS capability. The improvement will come from the Joint Emitter Targeting System (JETS), which facilitates the use of HARM's most effective mode when launched from any JETS capable aircraft.



F-16C/D Fighting Falcon






The fighters you showed offers strike weapons like Maverick, Paveway LGBs or JDAM and the Sniper targeting pod, which is not enough for SEAD.
PAF will use these F16s in CAS and deep strike roles possibly, while the only option for SEAD should be JF 17 and MAR 1 ARM. It should also be the only option with might get dedicated jaming pods (self protection pods are not the same!), which again hints to SEAD.

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## 帅的一匹

Oscar said:


> Slow rate production has resulted in a regiment being sanctioned for them..
> The Chinese may not induct the J-10B in any meaningful numbers as their next induction is geared towards a generation jump.
> The FC-20 of the PAF however is not on a concrete timetable as it depends on the variable of funds.
> Only the JF-17's and F-16's are certain.


PLA will induct J10b in great number to dilute the production cost. No army force will reject a offer with AESA radar, advanced avionics, JHMCS, super cruise WS10b engine with the best 4.5++ airframe, low RCS....

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## 帅的一匹

Especially J10b is not that expensive per 42millions dollars per unit.


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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> Especially J10b is not that expensive per 42millions dollars per unit.



Cost effectiveness is one of the best feature of J-10B, but still JF-17 Blk II is the ac to rely on for mmrca, J-10B is to counter MKIs


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## ziaulislam

every one is shouting of funds dfunds funds..FC20 project isnt that much costly that it would require tremendous funds..with current budget PAF can easily manage 36 fc-20s at cost of 1.4 billion(out of PAF total budget of about 2 billion dollars )
didnt we brought most expensive F-16s during the financial crisis of early 90s


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## Edevelop

sancho said:


> *Sorry but that's not correct!*
> 
> 
> 
> F-16C/D Fighting Falcon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fighters you showed offers strike weapons like Maverick, Paveway LGBs or JDAM and the Sniper targeting pod, which is not enough for SEAD.
> PAF will use these F16s in CAS and deep strike roles possibly, while the only option for SEAD should be JF 17 and MAR 1 ARM. It should also be the only option with might get dedicated jaming pods (self protection pods are not the same!), which again hints to SEAD.



Say whatever you want dude. When your people see F-16s, you start pissing in your pants.
They are battle proven, and more advanced F-16s like these will always be a threat regardless of SEAD or not SEAD


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## 帅的一匹

KRAIT said:


> Cost effectiveness is one of the best feature of J-10B, but still JF-17 Blk II is the ac to rely on for mmrca, J-10B is to counter MKIs


I thought J10B is good enough taking on Rafale.but if PAF want to take on MKI, J-11B is needed. But J-10b will render PAF the ability to deep strike, J-10B is more like Rafale not EFT.


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

cb4 said:


> Say whatever you want dude. When your people see F-16s, you start pissing in your pants.
> They are battle proven, and more advanced F-16s like these will always be a threat regardless of SEAD or not SEAD



Air Force to convert F-16s to drones, shoot them down - CSMonitor.com


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## Edevelop

wanglaokan said:


> I thought J10B is good enough taking on Rafale.but if PAF want to take on MKI, J-11B is needed. But J-10b will render PAF the ability to deep strike, J-10B is more like Rafale not EFT.


This tells us something eh


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## IceCold

gubbi said:


> Isnt that one of the reasons why India did not attack Pakistan post 26/11?



No this is not the reason at all for India not to attack Pakistan. I can go in detail but then the very purpose of this thread will be lost.


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## GORKHALI

As to take on Rafale even sole SU 30mki is not enough then leave out the rest like J10B or J11 etc.
To Tackle Rafale wrath you need Something close to it like Rafale itself or Typhoon  which PAF not going to get even if it want some units.
All they have is ,send a batch of 4-f16 to take on 1 Rafale ,kinda 4:1 ratio which is PAF best bet I guess,if all is well and with allah!!! Grace ,you will come as winner but with 2 F16 lost .Not bad though considering you succeded to shot down *1 RAFALE*

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## GORKHALI

*And to all pakistani members please do not consider J 20 as ulimate solution for all your pain as this is a differnt class altogether and we have our own FGFA ready before you started getting or even Chinese airforce statred recieving 1st few.*

*Please keep the discussion to 4 to 4.75 Gen aircrafts inventory only.*

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## Mani2020

PANDORA said:


> *As to take on Rafale even sole SU 30mki is not enough* then leave out the rest like J10B or J11 etc.
> To Tackle Rafale wrath you need Something close to it like Rafale itself or Typhoon  which PAF not going to get even if it want some units.
> All they have is ,send a batch of 4-f16 to take on 1 Rafale ,kinda 4:1 ratio which is PAF best bet I guess,if all is well and with allah!!! Grace ,you will come as winner but with 2 F16 lost .Not bad though considering you succeded to shot down 1 RAFALE



Lol interesting how the words and self perceived thoughts change around too quickly .... once the mki was ultimate killing machine who was 2nd just to f-22 raptor... indians claimed that no aircraft other than f-22 is better than su3o-mki may it be Rafale or typhoon....and even people use to give examples of exercises in which mki out classed typhoon,f-16.f-15 and Rafale ....and now as the Rafale is declared he winner of MMRCA and people started to feel that its coming in IAF ...now certainly mki becomes not even worthy of 1 rafale this is your exact line and i quote "As to take on Rafale even sole SU 30mki is not enough".....uhhhhhhhh making mockery of urself kiddoo

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## Mani2020

PANDORA said:


> And to all pakistani members please do not consider J 20 as ulimate solution for all your pain as this is a differnt class altogether and we have our own FGFA ready before you started getting or even Chinese airforce statred recieving 1st few.[/B]
> 
> *Please keep the discussion to 4 to 4.75 Gen aircrafts inventory only.*


*

now this is some heck of a generation ......and a hell of a msg to PAF *


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## Zarvan

Pakistani should not focus on getting soon J-10B India will induct those planes in 10 years span so by that time Pakistan should also try to get around 100 J 10 B with 250 JF -17 Block and if possible block 3 to and also get all of its F-16 Upgraded and by that time even J-20 or some other stealth plane will be also ready to get inducted the only issue will be of money

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## 帅的一匹

WS-10B is reaching the level of F100-PW-220 , it improve in HP compressor,annualr combustor,high-pressure turbine
in the reference of core engine of AL-31F.To reduce the weight further by expanding the scope of application of titanium alloys. For Afterburner and nozzle optimization design, the introduction of new high temperature resistant alloys, improved cooling design, reduce the weight. Optimization design of high pressure turbine blade structure design, without a Crown design, enhanced composite film and convection cooling technology. Level 2 blisk structure after the fan is used. Because of using three - dimensional computational fluid dynamics design,the fan efficiency significantly improved to a pressure ratio of 3.4 by using blisk, eliminating dovetail and stress concentration at the Clapper, reducing the number of parts, reduced weight, reducing leakage structure.


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## t_for_talli

Junta Its simple math 

You have a defense budget which is 1/6th of India's
You are maintaining army which is 1/2 of India's
So most of your budget goes into the Salary of armed forces and maintaining current inventory(because X/6 is allotted to cover for X/2)
So you cant have both quality as well as quantity with limited resources
accept it

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## Myth_buster_1

The only way for PAF to survive next War is to have China man presence in their bases with their hot toys

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## Zarvan

t_for_talli said:


> Junta Its simple math
> 
> You have a defense budget which is 1/6th of India's
> You are maintaining army which is 1/2 of India's
> So most of your budget goes into the Salary of armed forces and maintaining current inventory(because X/6 is allotted to cover for X/2)
> So you cant have both quality as well as quantity with limited resources
> accept it


Sir their is no much difference now Sir and you will have these planes in 10 year time and by that time we will also have great numbers of J-10 B and JF -17 Block 2 and around 80 F -16


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## 帅的一匹

PANDORA said:


> As to take on Rafale even sole SU 30mki is not enough then leave out the rest like J10B or J11 etc.
> To Tackle Rafale wrath you need Something close to it like Rafale itself or Typhoon  which PAF not going to get even if it want some units.
> All they have is ,send a batch of 4-f16 to take on 1 Rafale ,kinda 4:1 ratio which is PAF best bet I guess,if all is well and with allah!!! Grace ,you will come as winner but with 2 F16 lost .Not bad though considering you succeded to shot down *1 RAFALE*


 
I thought we will pressure on France goverment in the time of CHINA-INDIA conflict, you can't get those Rafale componetns supplied in time. Dont trolling those 4 F-16BLOCK50 for 1 Rafale day dream, nearly 0 possibility.


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## Edevelop

t_for_talli said:


> Junta Its simple math
> 
> *You have a defense budget which is 1/6th of India's
> You are maintaining army which is 1/2 of India's*
> So most of your budget goes into the Salary of armed forces and maintaining current inventory(because X/6 is allotted to cover for X/2)
> 
> 
> So you cant have both quality as well as quantity with limited resources
> accept it



Don't forget that Pakistan is a lot smaller than Indian in terms of size.
Our population is 180 million, and yours is over 1 billion.
In the end, your country's population is almost x10 than us, therefore it only makes sense why you spend more on defence to protect your areas.
Whatever we have now or would be willing to spend on is perfect...
Keep these reasons in mind....


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## kingofkings

Myth_buster_1 said:


> The only way for PAF to survive next War is to have China man presence in their bases with their hot toys



So you have lost hope in surviving of your own ????


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## Raje amar

VCheng said:


> *Please keep in mind the effect of bilateral nuclear deterrence. All the rest pales in comparison.*



So when a bullet will be fired front Indian side, Pakistan will reply with Nuclear Missile?????? 

Great logic keep it up.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan is in Good Shape 


2015 

2010 Block 1 JF17 thunder
2011 Block 1 JF17 thunder 50 planes
2012 Block 2 JF17 thunder 75 planes
2013 Block 2 JF17 thunder 75 planes
2014 Block 2 JF17 thunder 50 planes
2015 Block 3 JF17 thunder 50 planes 


300 JF17 Thunder , new engine , new avionics , superb BVR missile no restrictions on parts


By 2015 
36 J10B fighters , loaded with SD10 and tested engine and avionics package fully integrated with awacs platform

By 2011-2012 
36 F16 C/D fighters

By 2015 
45 MLU F16 C/D level 

*By 2015 372 brand new fighters jets *

Plus Pakistan has 200 Mirages Jets to gradually retire or move them to Navy 
Plus Pakistan has 200 Chinese Jets to gradually retire or move them to Navy 


Pakistan also has *OPTION* of 150 J10B fighters , to be considered for 2015 
Pakistan also has option to consider J11 fighter to be considered for 2015 

We are doing fine 

>> We got Chinese AWACS
We got Sweedish AWCS 
We got Refuelers 

Fantastic 

If France has not completed its order of Rafale , how can India expect to get its plane deliveries before France?

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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan is in Good Shape
> 
> 
> 2015
> 
> 2010 Block 1 JF17 thunder
> 2011 Block 1 JF17 thunder 50 planes
> 2012 Block 2 JF17 thunder 75 planes
> 2013 Block 2 JF17 thunder 75 planes
> 2014 Block 2 JF17 thunder 50 planes
> 2015 Block 3 JF17 thunder 50 planes
> 
> 
> 300 JF17 Thunder , new engine , new avionics , superb BVR missile no restrictions on parts
> 
> 
> By 2015
> 36 J10B fighters , loaded with SD10 and tested engine and avionics package fully integrated with awacs platform
> 
> By 2011-2012
> 36 F16 C/D fighters
> 
> By 2015
> 45 MLU F16 C/D level
> 
> *By 2015 372 brand new fighters jets *
> 
> Plus Pakistan has 200 Mirages Jets to gradually retire or move them to Navy
> Plus Pakistan has 200 Chinese Jets to gradually retire or move them to Navy
> 
> 
> Pakistan also has *OPTION* of 150 J10B fighters , to be considered for 2015
> Pakistan also has option to consider J11 fighter to be considered for 2015
> 
> We are doing fine
> 
> >> We got Chinese AWACS
> We got Sweedish AWCS
> We got Refuelers
> 
> Fantastic
> 
> If France has not completed its order of Rafale , how can India expect to get its plane deliveries before France?


Pakistan is going well in all departments related to Air Force but they should not order 36 J-10B and within ten years should increase number of J-10 B to 100 so we can counter India and and by that time China will have thousands of 4.5 Generation Planes so India will not have any superiority and also they will have to retire many many old planes

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## GORKHALI

Mani2020 said:


> Lol interesting how the words and self perceived thoughts change around too quickly ....* once the mki was ultimate killing machine who was 2nd just to f-22 raptor*... indians claimed that *no aircraft other than f-22 is better than su3o-mki may it be Rafale or typhoon*....and even people use to give examples of exercises in which mki out classed typhoon,f-16.f-15 and Rafale ....and now as the Rafale is declared he winner of MMRCA and people started to feel that its coming in IAF ...now certainly mki becomes not even worthy of 1 rafale this is your exact line and i quote "As to take on Rafale even sole SU 30mki is not enough".....uhhhhhhhh making mockery of urself kiddoo



Bache !!!!No Indian(Sensible one) ever claimed Su30 Mki is a world beater but certainly an asian beater which you or chinese still don't have in their Inventory.If you taking th Quottaion from Newbies then i must say you are still in their very much class of those newbies, Su 30 mki has its own limitation too and Rafale fullfill whatever drawbacks SU 30 mki got . 

Typhoon is a great Plane No doubt about that but yet to be showacase its capability and on the other hand very much expensive to buy or maintain in her lifecycle.

*PS-Brush up a bit about Military aviation 1st mate.Start reading sensible posts of Indian members before brain farting..*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We are good till 2020 , with current plans for Pakistan Airforce , we just need to worry about 

Attaining Chinese 6 Submarines
SAM missiles for City/Stragetic point defence


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## GORKHALI

Ever heard of 4+++ generation ???Thats what 4.75 comes from


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## Edevelop

Rafale deal hasn't been signed yet---wait till March.
By that time, from February now to March will mean PAC will produce 2-5 aircrafts...
When India signs the deal by that time, it won't mean France will straight away send you all aircrafts. At most, you will have to wait delivieries at most by till 2015.
You cannot possibly handle your LCA project, lol, but you expect to make Rafale in India sooner?
As rightly said by AzadPakistani2009, we will have 372 Brand new fighter jets by that time...


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## jagjitnatt

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan is in Good Shape
> 
> 
> 2015
> 
> 2010 Block 1 JF17 thunder
> 2011 Block 1 JF17 thunder 50 planes
> 2012 Block 2 JF17 thunder 75 planes
> 2013 Block 2 JF17 thunder 75 planes
> 2014 Block 2 JF17 thunder 50 planes
> 2015 Block 3 JF17 thunder 50 planes


Are you talking 75 planes per year???

I must say amidst all the bad news, you are always full of optimism, unfortunately you go way overboard with your optimism without considering the ground realities.

You can never have so many planes per year. You will have max of 100 JF-17s by 2015, and 10-15 J10s. Nothing else.

Your fleet will actually shrink as you will retire the Mirages and other older aircraft.


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## 帅的一匹

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We are good till 2020 , with current plans for Pakistan Airforce , we just need to worry about
> 
> Attaining Chinese 6 Submarines
> SAM missiles for City/Stragetic point defence


You mean six of this?
http://junshi.blog.china.com/201202/9317773.html


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## 帅的一匹

jagjitnatt said:


> Are you talking 75 planes per year???
> 
> I must say amidst all the bad news, you are always full of optimism, unfortunately you go way overboard with your optimism without considering the ground realities.
> 
> You can never have so many planes per year. You will have max of 100 JF-17s by 2015, and 10-15 J10s. Nothing else.
> 
> Your fleet will actually shrink as you will retire the Mirages and other older aircraft.


trolling......the actual number is at least three time of what you'd estimated.


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## Edevelop

jagjitnatt said:


> Are you talking 75 planes per year???
> 
> I must say amidst all the bad news, you are always full of optimism, unfortunately you go way overboard with your optimism without considering the ground realities.
> 
> You can never have so many planes per year. You will have max of 100 JF-17s by 2015, and 10-15 J10s. Nothing else.
> 
> Your fleet will actually shrink as you will retire the Mirages and other older aircraft.



You are forgetting the fact that China has to deliver us the 50 JF-17s as an emergency...
Its sums it all up. We have productions lines in 2 countries. Most probably, the figure you will be looking at will be around 75...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well , by all accounts , the Production lines in Pakistan will nothing but expand and increase capacity every indication states that the production lines will increase 

With out a doubt 

That is why China purchased like *2000 Engines* from Russia on top of the new engine research being done for JF17 thunder and also for J10B fighters 

The real question is can be shift our 400 Mirage + Chinese fighter fleet to Navy or Give these planes up to other friendly countries

400 Mirage + Chinese fighters would make a excellent chip with Iran in return for 5 billion dollar worth of oil Credit , perhaps the funds could be invested into Submarines by Pakistan 

I mean its a business proposition 

Our Mirages and Chinese planes can last another 7-10 years easily 

Not to mention the Mirages can be used to train pilots on Air to Air refueling techniques

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## t_for_talli

Zarvan said:


> Sir their is no much difference now Sir and you will have these planes in 10 year time and by that time we will also have great numbers of J-10 B and JF -17 Block 2 and around 80 F -16



I am not saying any thing about J10 of any other plane
I am just stating the fact that with a budget that is 1/6th of India's you cannot have quality of you want to maintain a force which is 1/2 the size of India force
You have to make a compromise between quality and quantity if you have limited resources


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## Nishan_101

In the end the deal would increase the numbers to 200 planes and 300+ Su-30s. Does more ex-French mirages coming too make them to 100-110 Mirages.


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## 帅的一匹

The first dog-fight traning video of J11B aftet Chinese New year.
?--??--??11"??"? ?


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

cb4 said:


> You are forgetting the fact that China has to deliver us the 50 JF-17s as an emergency...
> Its sums it all up. We have productions lines in 2 countries. Most probably, the figure you will be looking at will be around 75...



In 2010 Feb you had about 20 JF 17s. 2 years later the figure is close to 48. So about 28 planes in 2 years @ 14 planes per year. and then you talk about adding 300 planes in next 4 years.. Calling this stupid is actually insulting stupid


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## abdulbarijan

While some people are bouncing that "yes!! we got rafale... we got rafale..."
Just a reality check* till 2015 you wont get it.*.thats about 3 years for PAF to prepare...
The only thing PAF can purchase to handle the rafale is the *FC-20*...and its no big secret 
And the people going "hurrahhhh!! rafale will be modified for India with Israeli technology and stuff"...

*well wont that raise the per unit cost again*..and lemme remind you..*wasn't the rafale chosen cuz it was the lowest bidder???*

Well even if Israel etc provide you guys assistance no matter....

Cuz just like the Rafale will be modified for IAF...*similarly FC-20 will be modified for PAF...*

All we can do now is buy 100 odd FC-20's and better our ground support eg *SAMS and perfect our stand off capabilities for offense*, after all PAF's basic doctrine is defensive...

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## ejaz007

Perhaps PAF can not match fighter to fighter capability wise but what we can do is improve our fighter fleet by incorporating better fighters than we have. Similarly we can improve our surface to air assets which shall make it difficult for IAF fighters to enter our air space and survive.

Just remember one thing PAF is defensive in nature while IAF is offensive in nature.

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## Stealth

Yaar simply... J11B, J10B, F16 are enough to counter any threat.... go for J11B and J10B with AESA...


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## killerx

what are we arguing about India is buying rafale so Pakistan will buy some thing else to counter that and sooo it goes on buy more and in the end it all it comes to pilots who fly them them in first place we should compare the dog fights data to see who is the 
best these future fighter jets gon BVR and USA F35 in great in BVR fights but crap in dog fight its not highly agile F16 can kick its 
ASSSS so if there was a war in india pakistan in future we will see more dog fights then BVR for sure and it all counts is pilot skills and jets manuverablity and trust power


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## Agnostic_Indian

killerx said:


> what are we arguing about India is buying rafale so Pakistan will buy some thing else to counter that and sooo it goes on buy more and in the end it all it comes to pilots who fly them them in first place we should compare the dog fights data to see who is the
> best these future fighter jets gon BVR and USA F35 in great in BVR fights but crap in dog fight its not highly agile F16 can kick its
> ASSSS so if there was a war in india pakistan in future we will see more dog fights then BVR for sure and it all counts is pilot skills and jets manuverablity and trust power


no my friend...you will see more of bvr and less of wvr fights...and not only pilot skills, thrust and manuverability..but radar, missile range, tactics, other supporting systems, etc also will count..


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## deckingraj

There are so many flaws in your argument so let me go after one by one...but before i go in let me remind you that I consider PAF a very formidable side....However this is time for reality check at your end as well...Any side can maintain its glory if it keep improving with the passage of time...This is the era in which forces across the world are going for lean forces backed with modern technology to give even bloodier punch then what they would have othewise....That is the mantra!!! 



abdulbarijan said:


> While some people are bouncing that "yes!! we got rafale... we got rafale..."
> Just a reality check* till 2015 you wont get it.*.thats about 3 years for PAF to prepare...



You cannot be more wrong in this...
a) It will take approximately 6-8 months for further negotiations...Once the contract is signed first 18 planes are going to be delivered directly by france...Add another 18 months for the delivery of these aircrafts then we are looking at Jan-Feb of 2014....Anyhow there can be always delays still IMHO we will see Rafale in tricolors before 2015...

b) PAF knew about this deal for almost a decade now...They knew all the contenders and as per certain members all those fighters have been evaluated in some respect...So they had plenty of time to come up with their own counter...Having said that nothing new has emerged so far...So it is highly likely PAF is putting its bet on JF-17, J10's and future J20's of China...Obviously better SAMS, net-cnetric warfare, AWACS etc are force multipliers as well..So IMHO this is what PAF believe is a good enough counter with limited resources...

c) Even if we get Rafale today it won't help us if there is some action...bcoz it is no rocket science that it take a miminum of 4-5 years to master a plane...

Third point is very important...So far we don't know when are you going to get J-10's(tentaive 2015)...add 4-5 years for developing the doctrine.... 

In short economy is taking a good toll on your forces...IAF has taken a substantial lead and it is going to be very difficult for PAF to catch up...Right now the only option PAF has is to expect no hostilities for some time...This will give them enough buffer to catch up...Obvioulsy economy needs to back them as well...




> The only thing PAF can purchase to handle the rafale is the *FC-20*...and its no big secret. And the people going "hurrahhhh!! rafale will be modified for India with Israeli technology and stuff"...*well wont that raise the per unit cost again*..and lemme remind you..*wasn't the rafale chosen cuz it was the lowest bidder???*



Please keep in mind at the moment cost is not an issue for us...an no it will not raise the per unit cost...bcoz irrespective of the platform chosen we would have gone for Israeli technology if it is going to make the machine more lethal...so effective the cost remains the same....



> Well even if Israel etc provide you guys assistance no matter....Cuz just like the Rafale will be modified for IAF...*similarly FC-20 will be modified for PAF...*



Of-course it will...I have no doubt in my mind on that...



> All we can do now is buy 100 odd FC-20's and better our ground support eg *SAMS and perfect our stand off capabilities for offense*, after all PAF's basic doctrine is defensive...



100??? I am not sure if you can afford in...Anyhow that is your headache...As far as doctrine is concerned then i have repeated it many times defensive doesn't mean no offense....Yuu will have to cross the border and risk those planes being shot...Well i do agree that number of offensive sorties by IAF would be much higher than PAF but that does not mean PAF will not have offensive sorties at all...

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## deckingraj

killerx said:


> what are we arguing about India is buying rafale so Pakistan will buy some thing else to counter that and sooo it goes on buy more and in the end it all it comes to pilots who fly them them in first place we should compare the dog fights data to see who is the
> best these future fighter jets gon BVR and USA F35 in great in BVR fights but crap in dog fight its not highly agile F16 can kick its
> ASSSS so if there was a war in india pakistan in future we will see more dog fights then BVR for sure and it all counts is pilot skills and jets manuverablity and trust power



If my plane is good in BVR and not very good in dog fights then i need to be a fool to get engaged in WVR, no??? There is a reason countries are moving towards BVR enabled planes....There is a reason every effort is being done to make JF-17 a better plane when it comes to BVR...

Listen buddy there are many informed members in this forum...my suggestion to you would be read more on this subject...

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## fatman17

is this a new record - 282 deleted posts!!!


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## Jackdaws

Given Asia's lack of pedigree in building fighter aircraft, Pakistan would be pretty daft to rely on Chinese aircraft - none of them have been tested in battle conditions. Before you accuse me of racism, I don't trust the Indian LCA Tejas either which I think is a white elephant. The amount India spent in developing the LCA - they could have acquired a whole bunch of other Eurofighters or Rafales. Pakistan should approach one of the other European countries - banking on Chinese aircraft is fraught with risk.


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## Haroon rafeeq

The best Option is 
Go for atleast 12 AWACS.
Even old f7 can kill rafale just Matter of who See first.
If f7 See it First with The help of awacs , Then 2 f7 can easily kill 1 rafale. 
400 mirages can Do Same.
Just matter of tactics and Pilot skills.
Not ti forget jf17,10 and 16

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

The best Option is 
Go for atleast 12 AWACS.
Even old f7 can kill rafale just Matter of who See first.
If f7 See it First with The help of awacs , Then 2 f7 can easily kill 1 rafale. 
400 mirages can Do Same.
Just matter of tactics and Pilot skills.
Not ti forget jf17,10 and 16


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## hatyogi

Going by this analysis what does a country fear more in arial combat loosing aircraft or the pilots. I think the planes can be replaced fast and cheap what is costlier is good pilots. WW II, Japan had more planes but fewer pilots to fly them as they were not able to train pilots as fast as they were loosing them. Calculation of damage inflicted is more to do with loosing pilots. Thats where the side with planes with superior technology wins.

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## Edevelop

Weapons are needed for sure. They should be purchased with respect to how much we can possibly achieve within the defence budget limit. I think overall where we stand and how we are progressing seems perfect.
These Indians will be scared once they see us coming out in a surprise....
Let them chill and enjoy while we continue our production secretly...
2015 hasn't arrived yet. The assumption is, that both will have 4+ gen aircrafts in hand. Other than that, both air forces stand equal as of today.


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## ManuZ

Haroon rafeeq said:


> The best Option is
> Go for atleast 12 AWACS.
> Even old f7 can kill rafale just Matter of who See first.
> If f7 See it First with The help of awacs , Then 2 f7 can easily kill 1 rafale.
> 400 mirages can Do Same.
> Just matter of tactics and Pilot skills.
> Not ti forget jf17,10 and 16
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------
> 
> The best Option is
> Go for atleast 12 AWACS.
> Even old f7 can kill rafale just Matter of who See first.
> If f7 See it First with The help of awacs , Then 2 f7 can easily kill 1 rafale.
> 400 mirages can Do Same.
> Just matter of tactics and Pilot skills.
> Not ti forget jf17,10 and 16



U must be joking r8?
f7 killing rafale?

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## 帅的一匹

Jackdaws said:


> Given Asia's lack of pedigree in building fighter aircraft, Pakistan would be pretty daft to rely on Chinese aircraft - none of them have been tested in battle conditions. Before you accuse me of racism, I don't trust the Indian LCA Tejas either which I think is a white elephant. The amount India spent in developing the LCA - they could have acquired a whole bunch of other Eurofighters or Rafales. Pakistan should approach one of the other European countries - banking on Chinese aircraft is fraught with risk.


What is that 'banking on Chinese aircraft is fraught with risk', It is not realistic for PAF to ao after EFT. Whatever India gets is the best plane in the world trolling theory should stop now!

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## K-Xeroid

ManuZ said:


> U must be joking r8?
> f7 killing rafale?


When ever you'll get those rafale until then F-7 and Mirage will be replaced by jf-17 blk 2 and blk 1 and blk 3 will be getting ready to introduce at then... Mirage ROSEs are the best for land support till 2017...


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## GURU DUTT

Haroon rafeeq said:


> The best Option is
> *Go for atleast 12 AWACS.
> Even old f7 can kill rafale just Matter of who See first.
> If f7 See it First with The help of awacs , Then 2 f7 can easily kill 1 rafale. *
> 400 mirages can Do Same.
> Just matter of tactics and Pilot skills.
> Not ti forget jf17,10 and 16





OK if according to you a F7+AWAC support can kill a Rafale kindly please tell me with the support of AWAC'S what cn be done by a Mig29SMT+M2K Upg +SU 30MKI+Mig21Bison+Jaguar's.........??????????????????

i'm not talking about future that is FGFA + Rafale + Mig29SMT+M2Kupg+LCA2+Phalcon& Indian AWAC'S
not to mention all owr current fighters are BVR capable =R73, R77,MICA,DERBY....& fyture=Meteor,MICA AR & HS, K 172 & ASTRAA 1 2 &3 kindly do replay Thanks .

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## killerx

Android K-Zero said:


> When ever you'll get those rafale until then F-7 and Mirage will be replaced by jf-17 blk 2 and blk 1 and blk 3 will be getting ready to introduce at then... Mirage ROSEs are the best for land support till 2017...



JF17 thunder block2 will do fine agiants rafale i agree no need to buy jets form west rafale started in 1970s and JF17 1998 so its new program and big room to change and upgrade and JF17 Block 1 2 3 are cheaper then rafale for sure

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

F7 and mirages are 3 gen anf rafale is 4.5 no match and these are equal to indain migs21 and jaguar

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## Edevelop

For those (indians who think F-7s can't do anything):
One of my Favs!

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## KRAIT

killerx said:


> JF17 thunder block2 will do fine agiants rafale i agree no need to buy jets form west rafale started in 1970s and JF17 1998 so its new program and big room to change and upgrade and JF17 Block 1 2 3 are cheaper then rafale for sure


Kindly read this, any doubt you have of rafale's capability will certainly be cleared. The cost of rafale is worth it as it is truly an omnirole aircraft (explained in detail)
FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale

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## K-Xeroid

killerx said:


> JF17 thunder block2 will do fine agiants rafale i agree no need to buy jets form west rafale started in 1970s and JF17 1998 so its new program and big room to change and upgrade and JF17 Block 1 2 3 are cheaper then rafale for sure
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------
> 
> F7 and mirages are 3 gen anf rafale is 4.5 no match and these are equal to indain migs21 and jaguar


F-7 and mirages can play role for naval support as indian LCA is being inducted for Navy..
Well jf-17 blk 1 is also fine for them , just need bit upgradation and PN will have some fine aircrafts for their needs and useful during naval operations as an air support..

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## KRAIT

Android K-Zero said:


> F-7 and mirages can play role for naval support as indian LCA is being inducted for Navy..
> Well jf-17 blk 1 is also fine for them , just need bit upgradation and PN will have some fine aircrafts for their needs and useful during naval operations as an air support..


If i am not wrong, PN don't have aerial arm, PAF takes care of it.
But as Pakistan's doctrine is defensive, PAF base along the cost with these interceptors and JF-17 will do just fine.

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## GURU DUTT

Android K-Zero said:


> F-7 and mirages can play role for naval support* as india LCA is being inducted for Navy*..



Sir India has already upg its aging harrier's & has 45+ MIG 29K's on order with topsight& other french+isearly avionics pakage how are you going to counter them ???????????

im not talking of future!!!!!!!!!!

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## Haroon rafeeq

GURU DUTT said:


> OK if according to you a F7+AWAC support can kill a Rafale kindly please tell me with the support of AWAC'S what cn be done by a Mig29SMT+M2K Upg +SU 30MKI+Mig21Bison+Jaguar's.........??????????????????
> 
> i'm not talking about future that is FGFA + Rafale + Mig29SMT+M2Kupg+LCA2+Phalcon& Indian AWAC'S
> not to mention all owr current fighters are BVR capable =R73, R77,MICA,DERBY....& fyture=Meteor,MICA AR & HS, K 172 & ASTRAA 1 2 &3 kindly do replay Thanks .


Remember we are in defensive mode. We will in better Position as interceptor. Talk about rafale, fgfa when You receive after 7+ years. We are in numbers w.r.t our land to tackle Your aircraft. Of course we win Pilot skill advantage. Awacs will play advAntage for pak , we are defensive, Not You are. So awacs advantage also goes for Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------




GURU DUTT said:


> OK if according to you a F7+AWAC support can kill a Rafale kindly please tell me with the support of AWAC'S what cn be done by a Mig29SMT+M2K Upg +SU 30MKI+Mig21Bison+Jaguar's.........??????????????????
> 
> i'm not talking about future that is FGFA + Rafale + Mig29SMT+M2Kupg+LCA2+Phalcon& Indian AWAC'S
> not to mention all owr current fighters are BVR capable =R73, R77,MICA,DERBY....& fyture=Meteor,MICA AR & HS, K 172 & ASTRAA 1 2 &3 kindly do replay Thanks .


Remember we are in defensive mode. We will in better Position as interceptor. Talk about rafale, fgfa when You receive after 7+ years. We are in numbers w.r.t our land to tackle Your aircraft. Of course we win Pilot skill advantage. Awacs will play advAntage for pak , we are defensive, Not You are. So awacs advantage also goes for Pakistan.


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## K-Xeroid

KRAIT said:


> If i am not wrong, PN don't have aerial arm, PAF takes care of it.
> as Pakistan's doctrine is defensive, PAF base along the cost with these interceptors and JF-17 will do just fine.


PN is interested in Naval airforce wing with limited air support , Well! doctrine is defensive for indian threats, who knows about future wat other threats we will face so PN is fully considering the criteria of threats and interested in some cheap but effective war machines and getting ready for any doctrine and for any conditions depends on funds...

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## shuntmaster

Haroon rafeeq said:


> The best Option is
> Go for atleast 12 AWACS.
> Even old f7 can kill rafale just Matter of who See first.
> If f7 See it First with The help of awacs , Then 2 f7 can easily kill 1 rafale.
> 400 mirages can Do Same.
> Just matter of tactics and Pilot skills.
> Not ti forget jf17,10 and 16




People don't realise that the AWACS will be first to be shot down during the hostilities. Pakistan having very narrow strategic depth, the AWACS will be most vulnerable for IAF fighters and easy prey to be shot down.

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## K-Xeroid

GURU DUTT said:


> Sir India has already upg its aging harrier's & has 45+ MIG 29K's on order with topsight& other french+isearly avionics pakage how are you going to counter them ???????????
> 
> im not talking of future!!!!!!!!!!


GURU bhai! I guess you got answer in the form jf-17 multirole and some upgradations depending on conditions... We didn't make jf-17 for showcase , we will use them upgrade them consider everything about them... taking decision in hurry is not our need.. We have many options other than jf-17 war machine .. but I'll prefer jf-17 and own made weapons against any threat..


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## killerx

F7 and mirages are 3 gen anf rafale is 4.5 no match and these are equal to indain migs21 and jaguar


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## GURU DUTT

Haroon rafeeq said:


> Remember we are in defensive mode. We will in better Position as interceptor. Talk about rafale, fgfa when You receive after 7+ years. *We are in numbers w.r.t our land to tackle Your aircraft. Of course we win Pilot skill advantage. Awacs will play advAntage for pak , we are defensive, Not You are. So awacs advantage also goes for Pakistan.*
> .




but sir im not talkin of future ....Ok kindly tell me iff you have AWAC's(swedish & chinese) *what are Phalcon's for*?????& not to mention the* Green Pines & Swordfish LRTR's + aerostat + latest french & Indian 3d ground radar's* which are already capable of trackin all the activity as far back as Sarghodha down to Faisal air bases..*.kindly comment that how much you have to track & how much we need to* & please dont forget owr current capabilities *i'm not talkin of FUTURE*

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------




Android K-Zero said:


> GURU bhai! I guess you got answer in the form jf-17 multirole and some upgradations depending on conditions...* We didn't make jf-17 for showcase , we will use them upgrade them consider everything about them... taking decision in hurry is not our need.. We have many options other than jf-17 war machine .. but I'll prefer jf-17 and own made weapons against any threat*..



but sir what for we have invested in harrier's & Mig 29 K's not to mention other assets????????

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## killerx

Android K-Zero said:


> F-7 and mirages can play role for naval support as indian LCA is being inducted for Navy..
> Well jf-17 blk 1 is also fine for them , just need bit upgradation and PN will have some fine aircrafts for their needs and useful during naval operations as an air support..



sorry my pakistani brother in did not mean to hurt your feallings but the thread is about paskistan aproach after india buying rafale we are not talking about f7s we already ha advance jets like F16B52 and our own FJ17 thunder why doent you compare them wit rafale the are equal match


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## Edevelop

People who think that PAF doesn't have money to buy aircrafts are not thinking beyond...
Remember, JF-17 has been ordered by Azerbeijan and Zimbabwe. More countries will buy it, that is for sure. After all, we are supposed to get some money from that eh? and imo, it could be used for J2X (5th gen JFT) R&D in the future.


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## Haroon rafeeq

GURU DUTT said:


> but sir im not talkin of future ....Ok kindly tell me iff you have AWAC's(swedish & chinese) *what are Phalcon's for*?????& not to mention the* Green Pines & Swordfish LRTR's + aerostat + latest french & Indian 3d ground radar's* which are already capable of trackin all the activity as far back as Sarghodha down to Faisal air bases..*.kindly comment that how much you have to track & how much we need to* & please dont forget owr current capabilities *i'm not talkin of FUTURE*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------
> 
> but sir what for we have invested in harrier's & Mig 29 K's not to mention other assets????????



Will You bring phalcons in pak territory?, B.S


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## K-Xeroid

GURU DUTT said:


> but sir what for we have invested in harrier's & Mig 29 K's not to mention other assets????????


Jf-17 multirole ,upgraded for Mig conditions.. well jf-17 blk 2 is not too far from its introduction..



killerx said:


> sorry my pakistani brother in did not mean to hurt your feallings but the thread is about paskistan aproach after india buying rafale we are not talking about f7s we already ha advance jets like F16B52 and our own FJ17 thunder why doent you compare them wit rafale the are equal match


 I'm just giving opinion man!!! retired mirages and f-7 BGIs to Counter LCA, Its just for small scale scenerio..
Mirage ROSEs for ground attack till 2017 or 2019 ..it depends on blk-3

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## IND151

Avatar said:


> PAF should evaluate Gripen. I feel it is the most capable fighter for the price and suits PAF's doctrine well. It will also fit the defense budget and SAAB is willing to offer flexible payment options.



yes i also think so

but may be PAK doesn't want it as it has american engine


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## Edevelop

Avatar said:


> PAF should evaluate Gripen. I feel it is the most capable fighter for the price and suits PAF's doctrine well. It will also fit the defense budget and SAAB is willing to offer flexible payment options.



Dude, that same SAAB company is getting bankrupt. Its is said recently, that India's Mahindra is keen on purchasing majority of the stake hold.

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## GURU DUTT

Haroon rafeeq said:


> Will You bring phalcons in pak territory?, B.S



sir we dont need to if a phalon is flyin over say amritas there is nothing you can do about it..but that same phalcon can track all the pakistan air space+ is capable of jamming your ground & possibally air borne radar syatem's ...it is for that very same reasone Phalcon AWAC'S is considered as the most Modern & leathel air based AWAC'S system in the world + add to that the ceiling of phalcon(IL-38) platform is much much higher to the turbo prop's PAF operates, Thanks

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------




Android K-Zero said:


> Jf-17 multirole ,upgraded for Mig conditions.. *well jf-17 blk 2 is not too far from its introduction*..
> 
> 
> I'm just giving opinion man!!! retired mirages and f-7 BGIs to Counter LCA, Its just for small scale scenerio..
> Mirage ROSEs for ground attack till 2017 or 2019 ..*it depends on blk-3*



*but sir i'm talkin of current capabilitie's .....again I'm not talkin of FUTURE?????????*

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## Edevelop

I would personally like to see some things from PAF:

F-16s: (some things may not be possible, but worth trying)

- Take the option and go for another (18) F-16 Block 52+
- Buy used Block 30 from Norway
- " " Used Block 30 from Venezuela
- Getting Block 15 (30) old embargoed ones back

JF-17 (from original 300 unit model)
- Screw Block 1 and move on to Block 2 now (AESA, IRST, Fuel Probes)
- Work on Block 3 (Dual Seat)
- Work on J2-X R&D (money can be used here when JFT gets sold to countries like Azerbijan, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, etc...)--- (Stealth, Structural changes)

J-10
- Screw Block A, move onto Block B
- Get them up to (100+)

Overall, i'm looking at:
120 F-16s
100 J-10s
300 JF-17
= 520

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## K-Xeroid

GURU DUTT said:


> *but sir i'm talkin of current capabilitie's .....again I'm not talkin of FUTURE?????????*



Currently! PN navy depends on PAF air support so You have to consider it for current case, But again currently you are highly depending on Mig 29K for navy airial support and PAF have jf-17 for it.. for air to air case F-16 blk 18 to 52 is there.


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## killerx

*Well all we need to do to counter Indian Rafael is increase the no of j10B form 36 to least 100 and start producing JF17 block 2 and latest get 100 by 2014 and 100 block 1s and start a new project with china for medium weight stealth jet with china like F35 
And better than F35 and Rafael and J20 are good will cost more and paf and China can produce a jet cheap together 
And which would be in range of F22 and and J20 plus its has to be cheaper then these so we can produce in large no
*


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## KRAIT

Assembled here with significant TOT, didn't happen that much in past but will happen in future as we have stressed on clauses of ToT.

---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------




killerx said:


> *well all we need to do to conter indian rafale is increase the oder of j10B form 36 to least 100 and start producing JF17 block 2 and alteast get 100 by 2014 and 100 block 1s and start a new projet with cihna for mediam weight stealth jet with china like F35
> and no dought beter than F35 and and rafale and J20 are beasts will const more and paf and China can produce a jet cheap
> and which would be in range of F22 and and J20 plus its has to be cheaper then these so we can produce in large no*


Getting JF-17 blk II atleast 100 is a stretch....rest is feasible.

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## killerx

*stay on topic guys plz*


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## Cheetah786

I think we should take Lesson from Russians and instead of Matching fighter to fighter Inventory spend on air defense tech long range low range its much cheaper then jets.


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## Edevelop

killerx said:


> *well all we need to do to conter indian rafale is increase the oder of j10B form 36 to least 100 and start producing JF17 block 2 and alteast get 100 by 2014 and 100 block 1s and start a new projet with cihna for mediam weight stealth jet with china like F35
> and no dought beter than F35 and and rafale and J20 are beasts will const more and paf and China can produce a jet cheap
> and which would be in range of F22 and and J20 plus its has to be cheaper then these so we can produce in large no*



Yaar jaab nye government aigee, too hopefully, we should see economic prosperity.
The U.S is done. When we were allies, we didn't get any mutual benefit. Thank god, our trade with China just reached $10 billion dollars. Plus its our neighbour so goods things will happen. 
I am saying this to all Pakistanis: Just be patient... Pakistan won't let India get ahead, especially in something in this field.

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## GORKHALI

Mani2020 said:


> now this is some heck of a generation ......and a hell of a msg to PAF



Boeing Plans Sixth Generation Fighter With Block 3 Super Hornet | AVIATION WEEK



> Boeing is touting an even newer version of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that, paired with an advanced sixth-generation fighter in the works at the company, would give customers what Boeing deems a better package of capabilities than Lockheed Martin's combination of the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
> 
> The idea is that customers could buy 4.5 generation Super Hornets *(perhaps 4.75 generation with the planned extra forward stealth and extra range of Block 3 aircraft) *and then switch to a new, sixth generation faster than if they bought the fifth generation Joint Strike Fighter. To be available circa 2024, the sixth generation aircraft would feature a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars.



P.S-So much need to learn Bache!!!

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## SQ8

Thread no longer on topic thanks to some immature members.. closed.

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