# No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead.



## Kompromat

In a recent interview with JF-17 Thunder's deputy project director, Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood by Air Force Monthly, a question was brought up regarding J-10B/FC-20 acquisition proposal. He stated the reasons why Pakistan doesn't need/can't afford another 4+ generation fighter when we are developing JF-17s in advanced blocks and our F-16 MLU-MIII upgrade is coming along well with the new Block-52+ squadron. He also suggested that our analysts and strategic planners should think about 5th generation acquisition in the future instead of buying up another 4+ generation aircraft. Please note that this doesn't mean to imply that the J-10B is somehow 'inferior'. The hypothesis is that PAF doesn't need capabilities it already has, it needs to look ahead.

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## Pakistanisage

We have known this for couple of years now....

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## Kompromat

Pakistanisage said:


> We have known this for couple of years now....



The debate about J-10B acquisition needs to be ended. There are people always coming and asking about it, so its important that those questions are laid to rest.

PAF's eyes in my opinion are firmly placed on taking the leap into the next generation whenever its finances allow it to do so. Lastly, i do not think that the Jordanian vipers are the last ones to come to PAF. The PAF will most surely repeat what it did with the Mirage III/V.

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## Pakistanisage

Aeronaut said:


> The debate about J-10B acquisition needs to be ended. There are people always coming and asking about it, so its important that those questions are laid to rest.
> 
> PAF's eyes in my opinion are firmly placed on taking the leap into the next generation whenever its finances allow it to do so. Lastly, i do not think that the Jordanian vipers are the last ones to come to PAF. The PAF will most surely repeat what it did with the Mirage III/V.




Exactly. I have been saying that for couple of years now.

Used F-16's are a great bargain with the necessary updates along with our updated JF-17 Block II's and III's. We need more of these as we have great expertise with these two aircrafts , both at Operational and Maintenance level.

The next acquisition should be in 5th Generation realm, as funds become available....

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## 丶勿谓言之不预

If you do not choose J10B, J31 will also be a good choice.

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## Luftwaffe

Next stop Turkish F-16s in coming years. I have been saying about advance Blocks of JF-17 should be somewhat like Advanced Super Hornet F/A-18E/F. This is the only solution for advanced Blocks.

Navy Weighs Possible Upgrade to Advanced Super Hornet | Defense Tech

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## NKVD

丶勿谓言之不预 said:


> If you do not choose J10B, J31 will also be a good choice.


And costly one also


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## Hakan

Isn't india going to get the Pak Fa? So what is Pakistan going to do to counter this threat?

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## 丶勿谓言之不预

NKVD said:


> And costly one also


India not as expensive. But you where?

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## Pakistanisage

丶勿谓言之不预 said:


> If you do not choose J10B, J31 will also be a good choice.




Definitely a possibility , especially as the Platform and Engines become mature and armament is selected and mated to the Platform.

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## RAMPAGE

Kaan said:


> Isn't india going to get the Pak Fa? So what is Pakistan going to do to counter this threat?


First we'll further develop JF-17 into a true 4++ Gen fighter.

This will take 6 years at most and then we'll be able to develop our 5th Gen fighter. 

Step by step.

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## VelocuR

Disappointed and outrage. It will leave our sky valuable for French Rafale threat. 

Unfortunately PAF is lagging behind.

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## AUz

Kaan said:


> Isn't india going to get the Pak Fa? So what is Pakistan going to do to counter this threat?



Chinese J-31 Stealth fighter.

India isn't getting anything till 2020-2022...

We have 6 to 8 years...

By that time, we'll have hundreds of JF-17s block II, III, etc...F-16s...and then acquisition of J-31 stealth bomber/fighter will completely neutralize any indian acquisition.

The gap between PAF and IAF was greatest of history in 2001-02 stand-off.....and IAF couldn't launch even a surgical strike inside Pakistan territory back then.

After that, Gap has only been decreasing and this trend would continue in coming future, Inshallah 

In 2008, premiere IAF fighter, a fully armed Su-30MKI, entered Pakistani Air Space during high tensions....only to be *locked-on* by our F-16s and later, our 7 fighter jets "escorted" India's most lethal plane back to the border 

After that, IAF never even dared to enter Pak's airspace during that tense time...let alone going forward with a surgical strike...let alone thinking about an open air-conflict with PAF....

In ALL previous engagements, where IAF and PAF engaged each other in shooting war, PAF was able to shoot down way more IAF aircrafts than vice versa.

See this thread started by a well-informed senior Indian member itself...

 http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/38075-paf-kills-versis-iaf-kills.html

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## 丶勿谓言之不预

Pakistanisage said:


> Definitely a possibility , especially as the Platform and Engines mature and armament is selected...





Pakistanisage said:


> Definitely a possibility , especially as the Platform and Engines mature and armament is selected...


This is definitely a good platform, and also about the success of the development of the engine.

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## GORKHALI

AUz said:


> Chinese J-31 Stealth fighter.
> 
> India isn't getting anything till 2020-2022...
> 
> We have 6 to 8 years...
> 
> By that time, we'll have hundreds of JF-17s block II, III, etc...F-16s...and then acquisition of J-31 stealth bomber/fighter will completely neutralize any indian acquisition.
> 
> The gap between PAF and IAF was greatest of history in 2001-02 stand-off.....and IAF couldn't launch even a surgical strike inside Pakistan territory back then.
> 
> After that, Gap has only been decreasing and this trend would continue in coming future, Inshallah
> 
> In 2008, premiere IAF fighter, a fully armed Su-30MKI, entered Pakistani Air Space during high tensions....only to be *locked-on* by our F-16s and later, our 7 fighter jets "escorted" India's most lethal plane back to the border
> 
> After that, IAF never even dared to enter Pak's airspace during that tense time...let alone going forward with a surgical strike...let alone thinking about an open air-conflict with PAF....
> 
> In ALL previous engagements, where IAF and PAF engaged each other in shooting war, PAF was able to shoot down way more IAF aircrafts than vice versa.
> 
> See this thread started by a well-informed senior Indian member itself...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/38075-paf-kills-versis-iaf-kills.html


Yaar menu ek baat bata,when this thing happened.? Lol my own cousin, a su pilot in pune said all he can do is laugh rather than answering such questions. IaF kill vs Paf kills is just another story,where people hardly belives what PAF claims.

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## PWFI

NKVD said:


> *Your Fifth gen fighter impossible even we indians will take more than a decade to built Indigenous (AMCA)Fifth gen fighter maybe with help of Russians and Western nations it will come around 2025.So pakistan Are not blessed Ones*.First You have to absorb Technology and R&D from China which will cost you very High mate like us.So you can see your Indegenous fighter Not before 2030 Hard Fact.


We are not Indian please don't compare us with you, you guys are even not capable to build a 4 generation fighter with help from all around the world, where as we are getting ready to introduce Jf-17 block II. Please don't insult us, stop comparing us with you

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## 丶勿谓言之不预

PWFI said:


> We are not Indian please don't compare us with you, you guys are even not capable to build a 4 generation fighter with help from all around the world, where as we are getting ready to introduce Jf-17 block II. Please don't insult us, stop comparing us with you


Haha, you have to understand that India always like to compare with others, but most of the time, India is always smaller than others, especially China.

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## RISING SUN

What the hell man!!!!! Even a indian will not put f 16 to shame as you just did it. 7 f 16 fighters against 1 sukhoi mki


AUz said:


> Chinese J-31 Stealth fighter.
> 
> India isn't getting anything till 2020-2022...
> 
> We have 6 to 8 years...
> 
> By that time, we'll have hundreds of JF-17s block II, III, etc...F-16s...and then acquisition of J-31 stealth bomber/fighter will completely neutralize any indian acquisition.
> 
> The gap between PAF and IAF was greatest of history in 2001-02 stand-off.....and IAF couldn't launch even a surgical strike inside Pakistan territory back then.
> 
> After that, Gap has only been decreasing and this trend would continue in coming future, Inshallah
> 
> In 2008, premiere IAF fighter, a fully armed Su-30MKI, entered Pakistani Air Space during high tensions....only to be *locked-on* by our F-16s and later, our 7 fighter jets "escorted" India's most lethal plane back to the border
> 
> After that, IAF never even dared to enter Pak's airspace during that tense time...let alone going forward with a surgical strike...let alone thinking about an open air-conflict with PAF....
> 
> In ALL previous engagements, where IAF and PAF engaged each other in shooting war, PAF was able to shoot down way more IAF aircrafts than vice versa.
> 
> See this thread started by a well-informed senior Indian member itself...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/38075-paf-kills-versis-iaf-kills.html


wha

What are you smoking man? Even we have high respect for f16 f15 and f14s.

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## AUz

GORKHALI said:


> Yaar menu ek baat bata,when this thing happened.? Lol my own cousin, a su pilot in pune said all he can do is laugh rather than answering such questions.



This incident happened. Senior members here have themselves attested to it. (Some members, who are either currently serving in Pakistan military and have contacts have themselves talked to people who were involved in the interception (whether as ground radar operators or whatever) ) 



> IaF kill vs Paf kills is just another story,where people hardly belives what PAF claims.



Nobody is talking about what IAF or PAF claims. We are talking about numbers from neutral data-bases such as ACIG.org.

Look at the thread, even senior Indian members accept it. lol

The fact is that PAF has shot down way many more indian aircrafts than vice versa. That is a fact accepted by all.



RISING SUN said:


> What the hell man!!!!! Even a indian will not put f 16 to shame as you just did it. 7 f 16 fighters against 1 sukhoi mki



No.

Su-30MKI and Miraage-2000 entered in two different sectors.

Early 'lock-on' was done by one F-16...later, the back-up arrived.

not all 7 were F-16s  

It was a mix of F-16 and other aircrafts...

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## RISING SUN

care to explain those jets backing up f16 against 1 mki without getting themselves locked up?


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## Manticore

Stick to topic, Gents

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## RISING SUN

regarding j10 its a lovely plain although i consider it in middle lower category. Instead of this bigger economic and military power in Islamic bloc should join hands to deliver a 4.5gen jet which will help them in developing a stronger base for military might.

i don't have much faith in pl series and sd series chinese missiles. Even us and russian missiles had such problems in the start. But it will provide them strong air to air mechanism
to beat the good ecms in long term.


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## Pandora

Well J10 is no longer an option as we are developing JF Thunder Block 2 and 3.

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## RISING SUN

smuhs1 said:


> Well J10 is no longer an option as we are developing JF Thunder Block 2 and 3.


 believe me friend thunder can not be a replacement for j10s in any way. Pakistan needs to identify a craft for induction now. These upgradation are only stop gap measures which if applied reflect only the helplessness as we say in India in same way for our projects. We loose our focus on future upgradation and start treating stop gap measures as a jugaad tool.


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## Quwa

The main reason why FC-20 isn't being pursued is because Pakistan lacks the funds. Yes, the FC-20 would be just 'another' 4+ generation fighter, but it had greater range and payload than the JF-17. Moreover, unlike the F-16, the FC-20 was a guaranteed (albeit funds-dependent) fighter. Where the PAF would have to count its F-16s down in times of war and/or sanctions, the FC-20 could soldier on alongside the JF-17 and the fleet could actually *increase* in number.

Unfortunately the PAF lacks funds.

The focus on 5th generation fighters was always only a matter of time. Even if PAF had in its possession FC-20s it would still be focused on securing a 5th generation fighter (or two) for the 2020s and 2030s. Anyways, the good news for PAF is that it has a fairly high number of 5th generation options to pursue, believe it or not.

Besides whatever China is planning to offer for the export market, there are the Turkish TFX and South Korean KFX. Moreover, it's possible that other countries (e.g. Brazil) may start up their own initiatives. PAF has options and it can - theoretically - pursue multiple fighter types over the long-term, e.g. a twin engine and a light single engine, the latter to be produced at home.

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## fatman17

the AC was making a personal assessment and his bias is showing as he would prefer to expand the JFT program (no issue) but when the J-10B/C are available with a chinese engine, things could change rapidly. we need more F-16s to match the IAF frontline assets which are not forthcoming as we want, so the J-10B will remain in the PAF radar for the time being. i am sure as the AC has stated that PAF planners are evaluating 5th gen options (which is good news)

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## Aamir Hussain

let us not read a lot into ACs' statements. Those r his personal views. PAF is and will not go for the J 10 program unless the engine issue is sorted out fully. 

It is obvious, that JF 17 engine challenges have left a mark on the other program as well. 

As off now, the strategy seems to be; Higher performance delivery wud be with rebuilt/MLUd F-16's and steady replacement of older F7 and Mirages by JF 17.

This would seem to be the strategy for the next five years.

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## monitor

I think it will be nice decision if Pakistan can secure more F-16 both MLU and few more new block 52 from US and after/during 200 if those brand new F-16 block 52 can ungraded to Block 60 standard can secure Pakistan's capability against rafale and SU-30mki combo .
a 2020 PAF should like ~100-120 F-16 200+ JF-17 compose of block II III combine with AWACS support Insallah can deter any aggression it its own turf .

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## nana41

丶勿谓言之不预 said:


> If you do not choose J10B, J31 will also be a good choice.


Too early....but j-31could be a good asset for Pakistan Navy.


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## 丶勿谓言之不预

nana41 said:


> Too early....but j-31could be a good asset for Pakistan Navy.


I also think so. This will help the Pakistani army and the Chinese army.

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## OrionHunter

Kaan said:


> Isn't india going to get the Pak Fa? So what is Pakistan going to do to counter this threat?


There's nothing on the planet that can counter the PAK FA T-50 except the F-22. At least not in the next 25 years. 

And then the cost of a 5th gen fighter isn't peanuts. Pakistan would need to wait till its economy grows to afford these high tech toys. So up-gradations are a viable cost effective proposition where Pakistan is concerned. India too is upgrading its Mirage, Jaguar and Su 30 fleets.

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## 丶勿谓言之不预

OrionHunter said:


> There's nothing on the planet that can counter the PAK FA T-50 except the F-22. At least not in the next 25 years.
> 
> And then the cost of a 5th gen fighter isn't peanuts. Pakistan would need to wait till its economy grows to afford these high tech toys. So up-gradations are a viable cost effective proposition where Pakistan is concerned. India too is upgrading its Mirage, Jaguar and Su 30 fleets.


In fact India has militaristic.


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## acid rain

Unfortunately for IAF, the PAF does look more organized and planned.

While, we are all over the place with number of platforms and delays and planning - (our programs are always delayed).

Comparatively, the PAF looks far more organized and precise.

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## Windjammer

I understand that the J-10 was always an outside option to fulfill the role if the F-16s weren't coming. Even after being embargoed for a decade, PAF still pursued for the Vipers, a platform which PAF was familiar with and which served it well. With JFT Block-2 imminent and more F-16s becoming available, PAF's immediate and near future requirements seem well addressed. I truly believe that the PAF is keen to introduce a twin engine jet in future and some sources say that it has made a peculiar investment in the J-31 programme.

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## tarrar

Well when J10B purchase was getting delayed, we got an indication that may be the deal might get canceled & it looks like the deal is scraped. I don't know which 5th Generation fighter they are looking for. China is already working on J 20 & J 31, so lets wait & see.


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## 丶勿谓言之不预

tarrar said:


> Well when J10B purchase was getting delayed, we got an indication that may be the deal might get canceled & it looks like the deal is scraped. I don't know which 5th Generation fighter they are looking for. China is already working on J 20 & J 31, so lets wait & see.


I believe you will get what you want.

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## Windjammer

OrionHunter said:


> *There's nothing on the planet that can counter the PAK FA T-50 except the F-22. At least not in the next 25 years.*
> 
> And then the cost of a 5th gen fighter isn't peanuts. Pakistan would need to wait till its economy grows to afford these high tech toys. So up-gradations are a viable cost effective proposition where Pakistan is concerned. India too is upgrading its Mirage, Jaguar and Su 30 fleets.




Lets just talk for the present , shall we. !!

The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — War is Boring — Medium

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## Fahad Khan 2

I think PAF has no plan of induction of any new platform till 2017..... May be new platform after JF-17 block III.....


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> I understand that the J-10 was always an outside option to fulfill the role if the F-16s weren't coming. Even after being embargoed for a decade, PAF still pursued for the Vipers, a platform which PAF was familiar with and which served it well. With JFT Block-2 imminent and more F-16s becoming available, PAF's immediate and near future requirements seem well addressed. I truly believe that the PAF is keen to introduce a twin engine jet in future and some sources say that it has made a peculiar investment in the J-31 programme.



Somehow, I told you so is no longer worth repeating for me to the members here

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## CIC/Bridge

These planes are necessary for Pakistan！The fourth generation fighter called “J31” or the other name called “
AMF” won’t Massive imports.or so 30.WE

need 100+ J10B and 100+ JF17


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## 丶勿谓言之不预

CIC/Bridge said:


> These planes are necessary for Pakistan！The fourth generation fighter called “J31” or the other name called “
> AMF” won’t Massive imports.or so 30.WE
> 
> need 100+ J10B and 100+ JF17


额，Maybe you're right.


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Somehow, I told you so is no longer worth repeating for me to the members here


Yaara, people including me seem to suffer from a short memory and then some prediction making sites don't help either.

Pakistn To Receive Its First FC-20 / J-10B Fighter Jet Next Year | Pakistan Military Review

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## Kompromat

GORKHALI said:


> Yaar menu ek baat bata,when this thing happened.? Lol my own cousin, a su pilot in pune said all he can do is laugh rather than answering such questions. IaF kill vs Paf kills is just another story,where people hardly belives what PAF claims.




This is not a place for your cousin's laundery list. Keep quiet, if you can't participate.

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## aliyusuf

It is quite possible that the 5th generation option for the PAF may not be materializing before another 8+ years. These things are quite complex and lot of factors are involved and need a lot of time, resource and effort to stabilize and iron out.

By that time some squadrons of Rafale would most likely have been delivered to the IAF. 
Maybe more than just some.

PAF would again be in a lagging position as it had found itself in the pre-bvr period in the past viz-a-viz the IAF.
PAF would then be for a while again very hard pressed (to put it mildly) to counter the Rafa - MKI combo.

It is for that period and also for a sanction free 4+ generation viable option ... that the FC-20 (with AESA radar) should not be totally written off from the PAF acquisition plans ... and I do not believe that it is totally off the PAF acquisition radar ... just delayed ... due to paucity of funds.

However if the Rafale delivery gets delayed significantly then there really would be no need for the FC-20 anymore.

Just my humble 2 cents.

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## Kompromat

@Oscar

What about VHF frequency Radars. PAK-FA is 'semi stealth', its goal is to get 'close enough' undetected to be able to engage the target using its IRST and R-77s.

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## Rahil khan

So let's put aside the J-10 issue. My question is that what would be the ideal strength of F-16s PAF shall desire to have in its hands. 100 or 150 plus?? If i am not wrong we still have got an option to 18 more Block 52+ from US...can we get them even if manage to pay that amount of money ? Plus if we got used F-16s in near future, would we be able to have them MLU'd to meet our modern warfare requirements ??


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## Fahad Khan 2

why not buying some f-16 from turkey because its moving to f-35?


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## CIC/Bridge

I think Pakistan will buy the J-10B, otherwise there will be no new aircraft can use situation, JF17block2 needs the J-10 to contend with it, before the fourth generation fighter aircraft service we need a transition. Not only JF17 block3


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## khanboy007

IMO we should be looking onto a 5th gen fighter by the next 4 years......we should never ever mistake ourselves by keeping only india in sight and present comparisons against it.....

it should be twin engined this time

at this point of time as turkey is in for some 100 F-35's we can also opt for their F-16's

a stealth fighter like the J-XX could be an option too.....







China  J-XX Stealth Jets

https://defence.pk/threads/j-xx-5th-generation-fighter-china.5119/


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## Fahad Khan 2

Rahil khan said:


> So let's put aside the J-10 issue. My question is that what would be the ideal strength of F-16s PAF shall desire to have in its hands. 100 or 150 plus?? If i am not wrong we still have got an option to 18 more Block 52 from US...can we get them even if manage to pay that amount of money ? Plus if we got used F-16s in near future, would we be able to have them MLU'd to meet our modern warfare requirements ??


150 just a wet dream may be we can touch 100 but thats also looks hard..


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## CIC/Bridge

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> why not buying some f-16 from turkey because its moving to f-35?


 
Turkey has a strong air force. They won't sell it to Pakistan. The transfer is not so easy. There is no precedent in the past


Fahad Khan 2 said:


> why not buying some f-16 from turkey because its moving to f-35?

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## Fahad Khan 2

PAF plan is to increase current inventory of JF-17 and upgrading F-16..... We can see some thing new after 2018.....



CIC/Bridge said:


> Turkey has a strong air force. They won't sell it to Pakistan. The transfer is not so easy. There is no precedent in the past



Even if Turkey want to sell it will have to get permission from USA....


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## NKVD

Windjammer said:


> Lets just talk for the present , shall we. !!
> 
> The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — War is Boring — Medium


Russia Already Clarifies this Yellow journalism

Russia fulfils FGFA obligations with India - Alexander Kadakin | Russia & India Report

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Russia fulfills obligations under 5th gentn fighter aircraft programme with India

Russia Fulfils FGFA Obligations with India - Alexander Kadakin

Russia sees IAF’s conspiracy to defame Pak-Fa | idrw.org

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## Yeti

Like the chap mentioned it will be a decision going above him, it is just his wishful thinking. But yes the Thunder packs a lot of punch for the price it makes sense to work on this being cost-effective but with India getting the FGFA the F-16's and Thunders would pale in ability so they would need to look at 5th gen fighters at some point.


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## PakEye

Yes, Right Direction jf17 entered in Block-II phase and our keen focus on continues work on jf-17 promotion for 5th Generation is only way for PAF self reliance in the field of fighter plane production industry.


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## GR!FF!N

if I'm not wrong,even J-31 would cost somewhere near $100 million(I'm just predicting as there is no way to know what cost a Chinese 5th gen will have.but then,a T-50 costs over $100 millions and F-35 over/around $150 million.I'm thinking it'll be cheaper than F-35 and T-50).but even then,getting a J-31 will be a great problem,as they'll cost as much as 3 JF-17s.getting a sizable number of 5th gen and maintaining them will need a good economy as well as hefty defence budget.


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## Informant

OrionHunter said:


> There's nothing on the planet that can counter the PAK FA T-50 except the F-22. At least not in the next 25 years.
> 
> And then the cost of a 5th gen fighter isn't peanuts. Pakistan would need to wait till its economy grows to afford these high tech toys. So up-gradations are a viable cost effective proposition where Pakistan is concerned. India too is upgrading its Mirage, Jaguar and Su 30 fleets.



No T-200, J-2X can and does counter it 



GR!FF!N said:


> if I'm not wrong,even J-31 would cost somewhere near $100 million(I'm just predicting as there is no way to know what cost a Chinese 5th gen will have.but then,a T-50 costs over $100 millions and F-35 over/around $150 million.I'm thinking it'll be cheaper than F-35 and T-50).but even then,getting a J-31 will be a great problem,as they'll cost as much as 3 JF-17s.getting a sizable number of 5th gen and maintaining them will need a good economy as well as hefty defence budget.



Nopes, mind you this is Chinese we're speaking off and we're Pakistanis. They have soft corner for us ( for whatever reasons) and we're grateful. $100 min for j20 might sound alright not J-31. It's like F22 vs F-35. $200 million plus vs $100million plus. The fact being this is Chinese so reduce price by half.

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## Kompromat

aliyusuf said:


> It is quite possible that the 5th generation option for the PAF may not be materializing before another 8+ years. These things are quite complex and lot of factors are involved and need a lot of time, resource and effort to stabilize and iron out.
> 
> By that time some squadrons of Rafale would most likely have been delivered to the IAF.
> Maybe more than just some.
> 
> PAF would again be in a lagging position as it had found itself in the pre-bvr period in the past viz-a-viz the IAF.
> PAF would then be for a while again very hard pressed (to put it mildly) to counter the Rafa - MKI combo.
> 
> It is for that period and also for a sanction free 4+ generation viable option ... that the FC-20 (with AESA radar) should not be totally written off from the PAF acquisition plans ... and I do not believe that it is totally off the PAF acquisition radar ... just delayed ... due to paucity of funds.
> 
> However if the Rafale delivery gets delayed significantly then there really would be no need for the FC-20 anymore.
> 
> Just my humble 2 cents.



AESA for Indian rafales is not guaranteed yet, even if its the JF-17 Block-III would be in production by that time and might carry an AESA.

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## GR!FF!N

Informant said:


> Nopes, mind you this is Chinese we're speaking off and we're Pakistanis. They have soft corner for us ( for whatever reasons) and we're grateful. $100 min for j20 might sound alright not J-31. It's like F22 vs F-35. $200 million plus vs $100million plus. The fact being this is Chinese so reduce price by half.



you mean you're expecting China will sell you a 5th gen jet at some $50-60 million range??even French Rafale and Typhoon costs more.


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## Kompromat

CIC/Bridge said:


> These planes are necessary for Pakistan！The fourth generation fighter called “J31” or the other name called “
> AMF” won’t Massive imports.or so 30.WE
> 
> need 100+ J10B and 100+ JF17



PAF may be keen on buying up more surplus F-16s as they are easier to induct and operate, given the vast experiance it has with those jets. The JF-17 program will go on along the lines. In a recent interview i conducted with a PAF expert, the same narrative was repeated that there is no immediate need for J-10B for PAF especially when no Chinese origin reliable powerplant is forthcoming and at this particular juncture, PAF doesn't have surplus resources to mount another procurement drive.



GR!FF!N said:


> you mean you're expecting China will sell you a 5th gen jet at some $50-60 million range??even French Rafale and Typhoon costs more.



We don't know anything about the pricing yet. PAF has more than a decade to plan and save up for a 5th generation buy. When JF-17, Mushak exports start to occur, it would become slightly easier along with increasing defense budget.

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## Umair Nawaz

RISING SUN said:


> regarding j10 its a lovely plain although i consider it in middle lower category. Instead of this bigger economic and military power in Islamic bloc should join hands to deliver a 4.5gen jet which will help them in developing a stronger base for military might.
> 
> i don't have much faith in pl series and sd series chinese missiles. Even us and russian missiles had such problems in the start. But it will provide them strong air to air mechanism
> to beat the good ecms in long term.


PL-5 r based on AIM-9 sidewinders and AA-2 Atoll missiles. And Pakistan uses the PL5E for JFT
PL-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And other that JFT use is PL-9 tech comes from the experience learnt from PL-8 which was the licence production designation of israeli Python 3.

PL-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the title python-3's last paragraph.
Python (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And havnt even talked abt BVR SD-10/PL12


I fail to see how PL series is less then anything else.


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## Kompromat

Rahil khan said:


> So let's put aside the J-10 issue. My question is that what would be the ideal strength of F-16s PAF shall desire to have in its hands. 100 or 150 plus?? If i am not wrong we still have got an option to 18 more Block 52+ from US...can we get them even if manage to pay that amount of money ? Plus if we got used F-16s in near future, would we be able to have them MLU'd to meet our modern warfare requirements ??



As far as i know, PAF is keen on getting more surplus vipers and they won't be Turkish as the TuAF vipers will see extended service life and therefore won't be available.


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## Informant

GR!FF!N said:


> you mean you're expecting China will sell you a 5th gen jet at some $50-60 million range??even French Rafale and Typhoon costs more.



you guys are making a mistake going for Rafaeles. These Frenchies chrge an arm and a leg for basic stupid parts. This is the reason why their planes sales have dwindled to zero in the wolrd as of today because those uppity shits are expensive.

Plus man it's the Chinese, labour is very cheap and everything is inhouse. Im not saying its gonna be $50 mil im just saying its gonna be a lot lot cheaper than any other alternative.

Typhoon costs a $100mil i believe. Then again they're European, the costs are gonna skyrocket. We are a poor nation so we have to be very very careful and be extremely decisive and sharp in decision making, You guys have the money and can be lenient.

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## Luftwaffe

NKVD said:


> And costly one also





GR!FF!N said:


> you mean you're expecting China will sell you a 5th gen jet at some $50-60 million range??even French Rafale and Typhoon costs more.



The expected cost in the future of F-35 is $80m thus at $60m J-31 is not expensive.

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## aliyusuf

GR!FF!N said:


> you mean you're expecting China will sell you a 5th gen jet at some $50-60 million range??even French Rafale and Typhoon costs more.



I believe that if it is in China's interests, which it usually is regarding the Indo-Pak equation, they may even hand over the planes for free and accept a staggered payment schedule that Pakistan can bear. This is not unusual in Pak-China transactions and has happened quite frequently in the past.


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## UKBengali

GR!FF!N said:


> if I'm not wrong,even J-31 would cost somewhere near $100 million(I'm just predicting as there is no way to know what cost a Chinese 5th gen will have.but then,a T-50 costs over $100 millions and F-35 over/around $150 million.I'm thinking it'll be cheaper than F-35 and T-50).but even then,getting a J-31 will be a great problem,as they'll cost as much as 3 JF-17s.getting a sizable number of 5th gen and maintaining them will need a good economy as well as hefty defence budget.



Purely my prediction but J-20 would be around 100 million dollars and J-31 will come in at 70-80 million.

This will be the price that China would pay and overseas customers for J-31 would be expected to pay a little more, apart from an ally like Pakistan of course.

75 million for J-31 would allow Pakistan to buy around 100 over a ten year period, bearing in mind that China is likely to offer a very attractive payment plan.

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## GR!FF!N

Informant said:


> **** the French assholes, you guys are making a mistake going for Rafaeles. These Frenchies chrge an arm and a leg for basic stupid parts. This is the reason why their planes sales have dwindled to zero in the wolrd as of today because those uppity shits are expensive.
> 
> Plus man it's the Chinese, labour is very cheap and everything is inhouse. Im not saying its gonna be $50 mil im just saying its gonna be a lot lot cheaper than any other alternative.
> 
> Typhoon costs a $100mil i believe. Then again they're European, the costs are gonna skyrocket. We are a poor nation so we have to be very very careful and be extremely decisive and sharp in decision making, You guys have the money and can be lenient.




actually,even Russian Su-30 costs over $100 mil now.so,don't blame French.they make great aircrafts,nobody can deny it.but its their political leverage which is weak.thats why nobody bought Rafale.but look at Mirage-2000,you'll know how successful they were.

and we're not making mistakes.we need a 4th gen which can perform even against air defences and aircrafts probably one generation ahead.even though we need Rafale as a Ground attack jet with air to air capability's role,but Rafale probably could beat any 4th gen jets hand down.plus its capability to operate against air defence without SEAD/DEAD is impressive.yes they're costly,but thats what you've to shell out to get a great piece of equipment.


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## Informant

GR!FF!N said:


> actually,even Russian Su-30 costs over $100 mil now.so,don't blame French.they make great aircrafts,nobody can deny it.but its their political leverage which is weak.thats why nobody bought Rafale.but look at Mirage-2000,you'll know how successful they were.
> 
> and we're not making mistakes.we need a 4th gen which can perform even against air defences and aircrafts probably one generation ahead.even though we need Rafale as a Ground attack jet with air to air capability's role,but Rafale probably could beat any 4th gen jets hand down.plus its capability to operate against air defence without SEAD/DEAD is impressive.yes they're costly,but thats what you've to shell out to get a great piece of equipment.



French produce great equipment but you will have read upon IAF's displeasure over the Mirage spares and we even had bad experience with their services. But us being us we found alternative routes. Rafaele is a fine piece of equipment but why is IAF absorbiing so many platforms.


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## GR!FF!N

UKBengali said:


> Purely my prediction but J-20 would be around 100 million dollars and J-31 will come in at 70-80 million.
> 
> This will be the price that China would pay and overseas customers for J-31 would be expected to pay a little more, apart from an ally like Pakistan of course.
> 
> 75 million for J-31 would allow Pakistan to buy around 100 over a ten year period, bearing in mind that China is likely to offer a very attractive payment plan.



actually,you should add more when it comes to a 5th gen jets.you can't get a Su-30 at $100 million.so probably heavy J-20 will cost somewhere near $140 mil where J-31 somewhere near/over $100 mil,even if its from China.


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## UKBengali

GR!FF!N said:


> actually,you should add more when it comes to a 5th gen jets.you can't get a Su-30 at $100 million.so probably heavy J-20 will cost somewhere near $140 mil where J-31 somewhere near/over $100 mil,even if its from China.



J-10B is being produced for 50-60 million dollars when compared to 100 million dollars for equivalent European fighters.

Chinese planes are relatively cheap.


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## nomi007

100+ f-16s 
250 jf-17 bl(1&2)
in near future are enough 4 gen aircrafts
like turkey we also need to take 2 j-31 for trials and evaluations 
j-10b is good but hope jf-17 bl-3 will be better
in future 
we will have ucavs as well as 5th gen aircrafts


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## GR!FF!N

Informant said:


> French produce great equipment but you will have read upon IAF's displeasure over the Mirage spares and we even had bad experience with their services. But us being us we found alternative routes. Rafaele is a fine piece of equipment but why is IAF absorbiing so many platforms.



actually IAF is pretty happy with Mirage even if we had any spare problem in the past(the problem was due to ending the production line of Mirages.plus Pakistan don't have Mirage-2000.Mirage-III is a 3rd gen jets).India traditionally used multiple french jets and aircrafts.and its not "IAF is absorving so many platform".its that we're retiring so many platform and in dire need for replacement.see,we'll replaced Mig-27 soon while Mig-23 is already retired.the next of the line will be Jaguar as well.so,we'll retire 3 type of jets while only induct 1.



UKBengali said:


> J-10B is being produced for 50-60 million dollars when compared to 100 million dollars for equivalent European fighters.
> 
> Chinese planes are relatively cheap.



yup,China is producing J-10 at some $50 mil,but they're no way comparable with high end jets like Rafale and Typhoon.



Luftwaffe said:


> The expected cost in the future of F-35 is $80m thus at $60m J-31 is not expensive.



don't know about "Expected cost" of F-35,but they expects that if they make some 2000 F-35s,then it's cost will come below $100 mil.do you see any such requirement for Chinese jets??

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## Luftwaffe

You are wasting time into discussing cost, the idea is to keep the cost of F-35s lesser than 4th Gen aircrafts.

Lockheed Boasts F-35 Will Cost Less Than ‘Any 4th Gen Fighter’ « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

So J-31 could be around $60m max....specially the 3D development techniques will make product cheaper.



> don't know about "Expected cost" of F-35,but they expects that if they make some 2000 F-35s,then it's cost will come below $100 mil.do you see any such requirement for Chinese jets??



Yes eventually China will be the second largest operators of 5th Gen and alot of older types will be phased out in next decade.

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## UKBengali

GR!FF!N said:


> yup,China is producing J-10 at some $50 mil,but they're no way comparable with high end jets like Rafale and Typhoon.




J-10B is the latest in Chinese aerospace technology. It incorporates all the most expensive systems like AESA radar, composites etc and is still around half the cost of the equivalent Euro machines. Anyway, what makes you think that it will not be comparable as it has a similar airframe and the Chinese now have great experience in radar and electronics? It's only weakness will be the single engine that would provide a slightly lower T/W ratio.

Believe what you want as China has so much confidence in it's own planes that it shows little interest in Russian planes like SU-35 and turned down the chance to partner with Russia on T-50.

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## tianmolong

I think China may not sell J10B,but it will sell J31 which will be a five generation fighter.

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## NKVD

Luftwaffe said:


> ou are wasting time into discussing cost, the idea is to keep the cost of F-35s lesser than 4th Gen aircrafts.
> Lockheed Boasts F-35 Will Cost Less Than ‘Any 4th Gen Fighter’ « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
> So J-31 could be around $60m max....specially the 3D development techniques will make product cheaper.


@Chinese-Dragon What's your opinion On This


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## Assault Rifle

LOL. Aeronaut is thinking that AESA is not confirmed for Rafale. 
AESA was one of the main factors which helped Rafale as it had an operational AESA & French were more open about TOT on it compared to uncle SAM.
Every aircraft in MMRCA had to pitch in an AESA radar even for EFT consortium told IAF that CAPTOR AESA will be operational by 2016.


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## Kompromat

As far as availability is concerned the F-35s would be available for PAF, if Pak-US engagement on a post withdrawl Afghanistan continues.


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## Najam Khan

There was never a solid plan to induct J-10. Such ambitious plans were targeted (and promoted in publications/media) by an air chief. It was always a backup plan if project JF-17 fails and PAF fails to pace up with India. Procurement of tankers, Block52s and Saab-2000 (6 originally) were all planned somewhere in 2004 and till 2014. 

Later since JF-17 program gradually came on track, and more Chinese offers started to come on the table. PAF had to park the J-10 plan (which was never seriously pursued by PAF in later years) as there was no financial budget available for this project. The procurement of Block52, Saab-2000s and IL-78s were itself so big projects that PAF had to absorb these and streamline its order-of-battle (especially post 2015 without A-5/F-7 and mostly Mirage fleet). 

Even today, PAF is undergoing phase to absorb these new changes (Bk52/MLU/JF-17/AEW&C/Tankers etc.) There is no room to start and start new project (J-10) all together and try to mix it up with the rest. It took PAF a decade to slowly induct JF-17 into PAF, still together the basis for 3rd operational squadron needs refinement.

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## Kompromat

Assault Rifle said:


> LOL. Aeronaut is thinking that AESA is not confirmed for Rafale.
> AESA was one of the main factors which helped Rafale as it had an operational AESA & French were more open about TOT on it compared to uncle SAM.
> Every aircraft in MMRCA had to pitch in an AESA radar even for EFT consortium told IAF that CAPTOR AESA will be operational by 2016.



Even Rafale is not 'confirmed'. Indian MoD has signed no such deal so far, nor any rafales have so far been 'ordered'.

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## Informant

GR!FF!N said:


> actually IAF is pretty happy with Mirage even if we had any spare problem in the past(the problem was due to ending the production line of Mirages.plus Pakistan don't have Mirage-2000.Mirage-III is a 3rd gen jets).India traditionally used multiple french jets and aircrafts.and its not "IAF is absorving so many platform".its that we're retiring so many platform and in dire need for replacement.see,we'll replaced Mig-27 soon while Mig-23 is already retired.the next of the line will be Jaguar as well.so,we'll retire 3 type of jets while only induct 1.
> 
> 
> 
> yup,China is producing J-10 at some $50 mil,but they're no way comparable with high end jets like Rafale and Typhoon.
> 
> 
> 
> don't know about "Expected cost" of F-35,but they expects that if they make some 2000 F-35s,then it's cost will come below $100 mil.do you see any such requirement for Chinese jets??



The first mistake you're making is comparing western wages to Chinese. The pay is a major factor in developmental costs for the US/Western nations. Thats not the case with the Chinese. Second the cost for J-10 isn't 50 mil. A LOT below it actually. This coming from higher ranked PAF personnel. 

i can guarantee you the expected cost for F-35 wont go under. This is just for Congress to mug it up. Sure mass production reduces cost but not in US where inflation is biting down hard.


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## CIC/Bridge

Aeronaut said:


> PAF may be keen on buying up more surplus F-16s as they are easier to induct and operate, given the vast experiance it has with those jets. The JF-17 program will go on along the lines. In a recent interview i conducted with a PAF expert, the same narrative was repeated that there is no immediate need for J-10B for PAF especially when no Chinese origin reliable powerplant is forthcoming and at this particular juncture, PAF doesn't have surplus resources to mount another procurement drive.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know anything about the pricing yet. PAF has more than a decade to plan and save up for a 5th generation buy. When JF-17, Mushak exports start to occur, it would become slightly easier along with increasing defense budget.


 
Maybe you should buy
Shenyang Research Base’s AMF.Its Full name is Advanced Medium-sized Fighter.Then Importe dproduction line.But it is a little expensive.Import F16 is not convenient. F16E. Desert hawk. They are more optimistic about India's large orders


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## Informant

GR!FF!N said:


> actually IAF is pretty happy with Mirage even if we had any spare problem in the past(the problem was due to ending the production line of Mirages.plus Pakistan don't have Mirage-2000.Mirage-III is a 3rd gen jets).India traditionally used multiple french jets and aircrafts.and its not "IAF is absorving so many platform".its that we're retiring so many platform and in dire need for replacement.see,we'll replaced Mig-27 soon while Mig-23 is already retired.the next of the line will be Jaguar as well.so,we'll retire 3 type of jets while only induct 1.
> 
> 
> 
> yup,China is producing J-10 at some $50 mil,but they're no way comparable with high end jets like Rafale and Typhoon.
> 
> 
> 
> don't know about "Expected cost" of F-35,but they expects that if they make some 2000 F-35s,then it's cost will come below $100 mil.do you see any such requirement for Chinese jets??



The first mistake you're making is comparing western wages to Chinese. The pay is a major factor in developmental costs for the US/Western nations. Thats not the case with the Chinese. Second the cost for J-10 isn't 50 mil. A LOT below it actually. This coming from higher ranked PAF personnel. 

i can guarantee you the expected cost for F-35 wont go under. This is just for Congress to mug it up. Sure mass production reduces cost but not in US where inflation is biting down hard.


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## 474474

GORKHALI said:


> Yaar menu ek baat bata,when this thing happened.? Lol my own cousin, a su pilot in pune said all he can do is laugh rather than answering such questions. IaF kill vs Paf kills is just another story,where people hardly belives what PAF claims.


No one believes what either side claims, but their beliefs are closer relatively to our claims.


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## cirr

China itself only plans to acquire 24（or 48 max）J-10Bs。

J-10C，with a more advanced AESA radar and 5th gen avionics，is PLAAF's choice to go along with J-20 and J-21，while also not forgetting J-11D。


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## Fahad Khan 2

Aeronaut said:


> PAF may be keen on buying up more surplus F-16s as they are easier to induct and operate, given the vast experiance it has with those jets. The JF-17 program will go on along the lines. In a recent interview i conducted with a PAF expert, the same narrative was repeated that there is no immediate need for J-10B for PAF especially when no Chinese origin reliable powerplant is forthcoming and at this particular juncture, PAF doesn't have surplus resources to mount another procurement drive.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know anything about the pricing yet. PAF has more than a decade to plan and save up for a 5th generation buy. When JF-17, Mushak exports start to occur, it would become slightly easier along with increasing defense budget.



About exports of tunder is anything serious coming up or just speculations.. some where i have read about Azerbijan already has placed order is this true... what about KSA??


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## Chak Bamu

I think that maybe FC-20 has served its purpose for PAF. It was most likely a bogey for IAF to chase. Fanboys can be great propaganda tools to create 'chatter' and we did this well. Now we just need to relax and enjoy the scenery.

Perhaps FC-20 will come to PAF, perhaps it won't. Ambiguity is a great asset sometimes.

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## Kompromat

CIC/Bridge said:


> Maybe you should buy
> Shenyang Research Base’s AMF.Its Full name is Advanced Medium-sized Fighter.Then Importe dproduction line.But it is a little expensive.Import F16 is not convenient. F16E. Desert hawk. They are more optimistic about India's large orders



AMF would be a top candidate when PAF calls the shot for a 5th generation procurement, mainly due to the fact that it will be powered be the same engine as the JF-17s, making it much cheaper for PAF to operate. It will be able to carry almost all weapons we already have in storage (minus AMRAAM) and PAF would be able to participate in the program to get a jet built for its specific needs at an affordable development/operating cost.

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## elitepilot09

If true, this is a sad development.


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## OrionHunter

Windjammer said:


> Lets just talk for the present , shall we. !!
> 
> The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — War is Boring — Medium


Damn! Where the heck did you dig this out from??  

This is a politically motivated report by the French and Indian vested interests in order to acquire more Rafales instead of the T-50s..

By the way, the AL-41F engines are a temporary fit until brand-new and more powerful motors which are in the process of being developed. The radar, too, is temporary—pending new sensors being developed specifically for the Indian version of the FGFA.


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## rockstar08

I think its a very sensible option to ground j10B plans , we can use these funds to make jf-17 blk 2 more better , and we can buy F-16s with MLU's ...for next generation fighter I think PAF have options like j-31 or F-35 ( this depends on relationship between Pak-US ) but at least j-31 can and able to serve paf well for next decade .
I personally think we cant say what will be next move for PAF until Jf-17blk 2 comes out .

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## GR!FF!N

Informant said:


> The first mistake you're making is comparing western wages to Chinese. The pay is a major factor in developmental costs for the US/Western nations. Thats not the case with the Chinese. Second the cost for J-10 isn't 50 mil. A LOT below it actually. This coming from higher ranked PAF personnel.
> 
> i can guarantee you the expected cost for F-35 wont go under. This is just for Congress to mug it up. Sure mass production reduces cost but not in US where inflation is biting down hard.



i want to ask you one thing..tell me,how much difference only "pay" can make??sure west probably gives some 4/5 times more pay than what in east we get.but its not major factor for high end products like fighter jet.there is a limit that how much less costlier you can actually make of the product.by the way,if you compare similar products of defence,you'd find that it is cheaper when you get Chinese products,but also technologically inferior too.that is why west has its monopoly in the market and not China.but then again,I'm not here to judge the technology of an unknown aircraft.but you can get assured about one thing,basic F-35 will be available within $100 mil.but probably nobody will get it.thats why arms industry is for.they'll add new specs and will hike cost.

one example...

India bought Su-30MK at some $40 mil in 1997-1998.now,India buys Su-30MKI at some $80-100 mil per unit.thats because there is huge difference between this two.even China got its Su-30MKK at some $37 mil.but yes,there is a lot of effects from inflation and economical instability.but thats true for China too.USA isn't the only country which is having inflation.


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## he-man

Aeronaut said:


> @Oscar
> 
> What about VHF frequency Radars. PAK-FA is 'semi stealth', its goal is to get 'close enough' undetected to be able to engage the target using its IRST and R-77s.



pakfa is no doubt vulnerable to vhf radars but air to air it can even shoot down f-22.

it will have 1522 t/r main aesa,,two side arrays of 400 t/r each and a rear aesa too giving 360 degree radar coverage,the first aircraft to do so.

the second stage engine,item 30 will have a wet thrust of 180 kn making total power of 360 kn.

there will be no counter to pakfa in the air except f-22


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## GR!FF!N

UKBengali said:


> J-10B is the latest in Chinese aerospace technology. It incorporates all the most expensive systems like AESA radar, composites etc and is still around half the cost of the equivalent Euro machines. Anyway, what makes you think that it will not be comparable as it has a similar airframe and the Chinese now have great experience in radar and electronics? It's only weakness will be the single engine that would provide a slightly lower T/W ratio.
> 
> Believe what you want as China has so much confidence in it's own planes that it shows little interest in Russian planes like SU-35 and turned down the chance to partner with Russia on T-50.



they're buying SU-35 bro.despite all the protests from Chinese members here,its true.the whole world isn't foolish enough.

plus,producing own plane doesn't mean you've enough confidence on it.sometimes its because you can't procure anything(if you're under sanction,which China is) and have to make it.nobody saw this aircraft in action or in any international competition like Red Flag,none of the aircrafts they made.so,until then,we should stop comparing with proven platforms of the west.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

NKVD said:


> And costly one also



And none of you bloody problem either.

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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And none of you bloody problem either.



ur defence budget is 6 billion dollars and u are expecting a 5 th generation aircraft.be real here man


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GORKHALI said:


> Yaar menu ek baat bata,when this thing happened.? Lol my own cousin, a su pilot in pune said all he can do is laugh rather than answering such questions. IaF kill vs Paf kills is just another story,where* people hardly belives what PAF claims*.



Yes the "people" are only india... whose claims have been busted after those wars .. when PAF flew the jets,planes india claimed to shoot down.. while ours are accepted by neutral sources like USA,UK n european journos n papers.. 



he-man said:


> ur defence budget is 6 billion dollars and u are expecting a 5 th generation aircraft.be real here man



7 billion... 2.5 CSF.. now add FF group profits? we dont have to replace all obsolete soviet junk either ...

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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes the "people" are only india... whose claims have been busted after those wars .. when PAF flew the jets,planes india claimed to shoot down.. while ours are accepted by neutral sources like USA,UK n european journos n papers..
> 
> 
> 
> 7



dosen't change much,,,5 th generation will be too much for pakistan
either way who cares in india.

by 2025 we will have 126 rafales+272 mki+25-30 pakfa+40 tejas mk1+40-50 tejas mk2+50 upgraded mirage 2000+50-60 upgraded mig-29's apart from other small change.

so we don't have any concern,i wish u best for what u buy


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## Informant

@DESERT FIGHTER Please ignore She-Male saein. Saein ap tension na lein.



GR!FF!N said:


> i want to ask you one thing..tell me,how much difference only "pay" can make??sure west probably gives some 4/5 times more pay than what in east we get.but its not major factor for high end products like fighter jet.there is a limit that how much less costlier you can actually make of the product.by the way,if you compare similar products of defence,you'd find that it is cheaper when you get Chinese products,but also technologically inferior too.that is why west has its monopoly in the market and not China.but then again,I'm not here to judge the technology of an unknown aircraft.but you can get assured about one thing,basic F-35 will be available within $100 mil.but probably nobody will get it.thats why arms industry is for.they'll add new specs and will hike cost.
> 
> one example...
> 
> India bought Su-30MK at some $40 mil in 1997-1998.now,India buys Su-30MKI at some $80-100 mil per unit.thats because there is huge difference between this two.even China got its Su-30MKK at some $37 mil.but yes,there is a lot of effects from inflation and economical instability.but thats true for China too.USA isn't the only country which is having inflation.



HUGE difference. I mean not a small action but upto 20-30%. Their wages arent 5-8$ an hour. You see it does make a difference. I'm sure the claims of less than a 100 mill will remain unfounded seeing the rising costs on the horizon and F-35 is a LONG LINE of production seeing around 2400 have to be produced. The costs will go up as time goes on.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

he-man said:


> dosen't change much,,,5 th generation will be too much for pakistan
> either way who cares in india.


7 billion + 2.5 CSF.. + add FF group profits? = ??

Also got 9-10 years to go? already economy improving??





> by 2025 we will have 126 rafales+272 mki+25-30 pakfa+40 tejas mk1+40-50 tejas mk2+50 upgraded mirage 2000+50-60 upgraded mig-29's apart from other small change.
> 
> so we don't have any concern,i wish u best for what u buy



As of now... No rafael deal... no LCA mk-I.. ? 170 mkis? oh pleeeeeeeeeez man.. i wonder why indians live in their future fantasy land... you talk big .. but no action...

We gonna get 100000000 arty guns? oh shit .. BAE closed the lines ... 

We gonna get MRCA ... Oh shit... its been over a dozen years ... no deal signed yet.

We gonna get our arjun.... Oh shit... millions of $$ and years spent.. no boss .. we got a face saving 124 .. and now arjun MKII... Oh shit get the t-90s..

n million other bs stories..

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## he-man

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 7 billion + 2.5 CSF.. + add FF group profits? = ??
> 
> Also got 9-10 years to go? already economy improving??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As of now... No rafael deal... no LCA mk-I.. ? 170 mkis? oh pleeeeeeeeeez man.. i wonder why indians live in their future fantasy land... you talk big .. but no action...
> 
> We gonna get 100000000 arty guns? oh shit .. BAE closed the lines ...
> 
> We gonna get MRCA ... Oh shit... its been over a dozen years ... no deal signed yet.
> 
> We gonna get our arjun.... Oh shit... millions of $$ and years spent.. no boss .. we got a face saving 124 .. and now arjun MKII... Oh shit get the t-90s..
> 
> n million other bs stories..



in next 6 months u will get the answer.
i need not say even a word for ur silly argument,,,anyone even remotely interested in defence knows that production of mk-1 has started,,,,pakfa has already got 5 prototypes with production for russians starting by 2016-17 and rafale deal will be signed this year after new govt comes.

whether u like or not,,,meanwhile u keep on buying 2 nd hand f-16 from jordan and planning of 5 th generation aircraft with no money

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## Chak Bamu

he-man said:


> dosen't change much,,,5 th generation will be too much for pakistan
> either way who cares in india.



Apparently, you do... enough to debate without having much knowledge yourself. I wonder why Indians have such a morbid fixation with Pakistan? 



he-man said:


> by 2025 we will have 126 rafales+272 mki+25-30 pakfa+40 tejas mk1+40-50 tejas mk2+50 upgraded mirage 2000+50-60 upgraded mig-29's apart from other small change.



Pehlay 2025 anay do, dekh lain gai.

You are making too many assumptions dr. saab.

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## he-man

Informant said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER Please ignore She-Male saein. Saein ap tension na lein.
> 
> 
> 
> HUGE difference. I mean not a small action but upto 20-30%. Their wages arent 5-8$ an hour. You see it does make a difference. I'm sure the claims of less than a 100 mill will remain unfounded seeing the rising costs on the horizon and F-35 is a LONG LINE of production seeing around 2400 have to be produced. The costs will go up as time goes on.





Chak Bamu said:


> Apparently, you do... enough to debate without having much knowledge yourself. I wonder why Indians have such a morbid fixation with Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> Pehlay 2025 anay do, dekh lain gai.
> 
> You are making too many assumptions dr. saab.



which assumption is wrong??
in 6 months we will sign pakfa deal and rafale both.

everyone knows it,,,meanwhile u may go for more second hand f-16's.


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## NKVD

Chak Bamu said:


> Apparently, you do... enough to debate without having much knowledge yourself. I wonder why Indians have such a morbid fixation with Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> Pehlay 2025 anay do, dekh lain gai.
> 
> You are making too many assumptions dr. saab.


The Cost of J-31 is 130 million Flying cost not included So Sir how Many you are Planing to buy


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## Informant

he-man said:


> which assumption is wrong??
> in 6 months we will sign pakfa deal and rafale both.
> 
> everyone knows it,,,meanwhile u may go for more second hand f-16's.



Again you with your antics, been hearing this Mrca deal since forever. PAKFA isnt gonna happen this soon either.


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## he-man

Informant said:


> Again you with your antics, been hearing this Mrca deal since forever. PAKFA isnt gonna happen this soon either.



did i say soon??
i said we will have 30-40 pakfa till 2025
mmrca will be signed this year


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## nangyale

he-man said:


> which assumption is wrong??
> *in 6 months we will sign pakfa deal and rafale both.*
> 
> *everyone knows it*,,,meanwhile u may go for more second hand f-16's.



You mean all the astrologers and palms readers in India including yourself, right?

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## he-man

nangyale said:


> You mean all the astrologers and palms readers in India including yourself, right?


we will know in 6 months time


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## Informant

he-man said:


> did i say soon??
> i said we will have 30-40 pakfa till 2025
> mmrca will be signed this year



NO. That is your overestimating Indian military bureaucracy. 2025 is a long way ahead man and our economy is only improving. Rest assured we cant match your prowess quantity wise,, but qualitatively we can and have done so since inception.

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## nangyale

he-man said:


> we will know in 6 months time



Yes everybody else will know in due time, that is if and when it get signed.
Right now it's only the astrologers like yourself who are sure.


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## ziaulislam

GR!FF!N said:


> they're buying SU-35 bro.despite all the protests from Chinese members here,its true.the whole world isn't foolish enough.
> 
> plus,producing own plane doesn't mean you've enough confidence on it.sometimes its because you can't procure anything(if you're under sanction,which China is) and have to make it.nobody saw this aircraft in action or in any international competition like Red Flag,none of the aircrafts they made.so,until then,we should stop comparing with proven platforms of the west.


the news of buying su 35 has been there since 2005. it should be consider rubbish until more than a few are delivered.(meaning atleast 4 or more coz we never know whether they were brought it for study or aggressor unit)
until now it seems, china wouldnt even buy a few for study, it seems they already did that through Ukraine.


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## nangyale

ziaulislam said:


> the news of buying su 35 has been there since 2005. it should be consider rubbish until more than a few are delivered.(meaning atleast 4 or more coz we never know whether they were brought it for study or aggressor unit)
> until now it seems, china would even buy a few for study, it seems they already did that through Ukraine.



Did what through Ukraine? I hope you are not talking about SU - 35


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## GR!FF!N

ziaulislam said:


> the news of buying su 35 has been there since 2005. it should be consider rubbish until more than a few are delivered.(meaning atleast 4 or more coz we never know whether they were brought it for study or aggressor unit)
> until now it seems, china would even buy a few for study, it seems they already did that through Ukraine.



actually,I'd not be too quick to deliver judgement about SU-35.there are plenty reputed newspapers and sites mentioned about it.

How China Plans to Use the Su-35 | The Diplomat

China to Get Russian Su-35 Jets in 2014 – Rosoboronexport | World | RIA Novosti

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/CHIN-02-131213.html

its not about studying a jet.its more like they need a powerful weapons as their own services are dissatisfied about indigenous platforms.


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## ziaulislam

nangyale said:


> Did what through Ukraine? I hope you are not talking about SU - 35



my bad, i mixed su-33 the basis for j-16 with su 35..
having said that su 35 doesnt seem to be on china wish list. there are probably only intersted in latest sam s400. and that isnt confirmed too


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## NKVD

Informant said:


> NO. That is your overestimating Indian military bureaucracy. 2025 is a long way ahead man and our economy is only improving. Rest assured we cant match your prowess quantity wise,, but qualitatively we can and have done so since inception.


Ohh really by that logic your democracy is even in pathetic conditions then Us.quality wise how without development of Indegenous technology you are going No were Sir you don't even know how to develop a Indegenous automobile engine forget about Advance technologies related to Developing Indegenous fighter aircraft.Stop doing painting job on other achievements


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## ziaulislam

GR!FF!N said:


> actually,I'd not be too quick to deliver judgement about SU-35.there are plenty reputed newspapers and sites mentioned about it.
> 
> How China Plans to Use the Su-35 | The Diplomat
> 
> China to Get Russian Su-35 Jets in 2014 – Rosoboronexport | World | RIA Novosti
> 
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/CHIN-02-131213.html
> 
> its not about studying a jet.its more like they need a powerful weapons as their own services are dissatisfied about indigenous platforms.


has the delivery been confirmed? sources are all over the net for a decade now..and all sources are russain 
once the delivery happens only then the news will be true


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## Mugwop

Kaan said:


> Isn't india going to get the Pak Fa? So what is Pakistan going to do to counter this threat?


Most probably J-31 because of it's size. PAF is not into Big fighters.

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## Informant

NKVD said:


> Ohh really by that logic your democracy is even in pathetic conditions then Us.quality wise how without development of Indegenous technology you are going No were Sir you don't even know how to develop a Indegenous automobile engine forget about Advance technologies related to Developing Indegenous fighter aircraft.Stop doing painting job on other achievements



You can focus money on indigenous equipments, good on you. Because you have the resources to do so. We do not, we make do with our $9 B. We buy and have a really good friend in China. That my dear helps us counter you qualitatively. Quantitatively we cannot. Simple economics come on man. Please do you want me to post a list of your indigenous achievements that are nothing but mere paint jobs?

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## TOPGUN

This is real as it gets people Aeronaut bro thanks for sharing, although I would love to see atleast a sq or 2 of J-10B in PAF fleet but reality and actual needs speak for themselves I think this is best way forward increase numbers in thunders and vipers to fill the gap and then have the funds to go for 5 gen in the years ahead good choice makes perfect sense.


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## NKVD

Informant said:


> You can focus money on indigenous equipments, good on you. Because you have the resources to do so. We do not, we make do with our $9 B. We buy and have a really good friend in China. That my dear helps us counter you qualitatively. Quantitatively we cannot. Simple economics come on man. Please do you want me to post a list of your indigenous achievements that are nothing but mere paint jobs?



Ohh really we have friend too Russians, Israel and France we have have all the Best options that you don't have Combination of both Eastern and Western technology.We have option to Absorb Technologies of Both. Paint job seriously we are constructing our Own Nuclear SSBNS and Aircraft Carriers,AWE&S,Bvraam Missiles,Destroyers,Corvettes,ABMs,Fifth Genfighter,AESA Radar,Jet Engines,Navigation Systems And Many More. Even We Fail In Some Stages But we use that failure Two Achieve It At-last. we Taking Small steps to Stand By our Own . Tell Me some of your achievements Now


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## Informant

NKVD said:


> Ohh really we have friend too Russians, Israel and France we have have all the Best options that you don't have Combination of both Eastern and Western technology.We have option to Absorb Technologies of Both. Paint job seriously we are constructing our Own Nuclear SSBNS and Aircraft Carriers,AWE&S,Bvraam Missiles,Destroyers,Corvettes,ABMs,Fifth Genfighter,AESA Radar,Jet Engines,Navigation Systems And Many More. Even We Fail In Some Stages But we use that failure Two Achieve It At-last. Tell Me some of your ac



We made the bumb. Hahahahaah that is all we need isnt it really? We have our weapons delivery, our own plane. Our own tanks, frigates, destroyers, submarines. We have the best of friends aswell. US and China and KSA. And we milk US good. Half of those you mentioned failed. Please update yourself on it. And good for India, this is what having resources at your disposal does for you. You can achieve a lot more. 

Peace.

Any more quotes wont be entertained, because now is my time to chit chat with my special "friend"

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## Storm Force

IF THIS IS TRUE and PAF are not to buy any J10 its a real wake up call to those Pakistani fanboys of J10 who where dreaming of a PAF equipped fleet of 100+ J10B over the next decade.

Military hardware is dam expensive to buy and to operate.

The only REASON PAF will not induct a chinease advanced J10B is due to COST ALONE.

*PAF SECNARIO LEFT FOR NEXT 10 YEARS *

1.F16 great choice BUT VERY RISKY = imo as good as the J10 but FOR PAF a double edged sword that USA will always carry the threat of embargos & spare parts sanctions the second pakistan steps out of line against USA interests. Unforunately india is now a good friend and important trading partner of the usa & the WEST in general.

2. JF17 great achievement and Pakistan will learn a great deal and be able to plug play and improve in block 2 & block 3.
Disadvantage only carrys chinease radars and weapons and a russian engine and is a lightweight MR fighter so operatiional depolyment will be limited to Pak airspace only.

3. Will leave PAF with 3-1 disadvantage in true 4 generation fighters as we speak. AND PAF cannot bridge this inferiority in nos by havng a CLEARLY SUPERIOR war plane which can easily out do the SU30MKI/MIG29/MIRAGE threat. The J10B in theory could have helped reduce the GAP .

4. Those banking on a fifth generation chinease fighter will need to very paitent. Since no chinease fighter is ready for depolyment with PLAAF for at least 5-7 years and so we can add further 5 years for exports. Even if by 2025 PAF orders a J31 we are talking huge nos in cost. ie 4 times the cost of a single JF17. Maybe beyond PAF pockets even in 2025

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## Kompromat

Guys stick to the topic. Hold on those 'imaginary' air fleets in your closets. 

@he-man l We will talk about your 'would be' fleet when they are actually 'ordered'. 

This discussion isn't India centric, so refrain from dragging it into one.


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## he-man

Aeronaut said:


> Guys stick to the topic. Hold on those 'imaginary' air fleets in your closets.
> 
> @he-man l We will talk about your 'would be' fleet when they are actually 'ordered'.
> 
> This discussion isn't India centric, so refrain from dragging it into one.


as if this thread is not imaginary.........
pakistan getting j-31 in near future is so believeable compared to india getting rafales and pakfa??right?

but yeah we are going offtopic,sorry


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## TOPGUN

random247 said:


> But I am sure PAC might be looking to produce J-31 in near future.... to fill the 5th gap.




If you read correctly you can see that I clearly state that .

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## UKBengali

he-man said:


> pakfa is no doubt vulnerable to vhf radars but air to air it can even shoot down f-22.
> 
> it will have 1522 t/r main aesa,,two side arrays of 400 t/r each and a rear aesa too giving 360 degree radar coverage,the first aircraft to do so.
> 
> the second stage engine,item 30 will have a wet thrust of 180 kn making total power of 360 kn.
> 
> *there will be no counter to pakfa in the air except f-22*



PAK-FA is not a true 5th generation fight as it lacks all round stealth.

Only J-20 can stand up to F-22.

Russia is not the old Soviet Union. It is weak in the latest airframe materials and electronics.

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## Yeti

Informant said:


> French produce great equipment but you will have read upon IAF's displeasure over the Mirage spares and we even had bad experience with their services. But us being us we found alternative routes. Rafaele is a fine piece of equipment but why is IAF absorbiing so many platforms.



Many reasons for one we already operate mirages which are French so are pilots used to it, plus the French helped us out in the kargil war by letting us modify the jets very fast. Two they will give us full source codes and also tech transfer, I could go on and on stating the many reasons why Rafale is the best selection.


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## araz

OrionHunter said:


> There's nothing on the planet that can counter the PAK FA T-50 except the F-22. At least not in the next 25 years.
> 
> And then the cost of a 5th gen fighter isn't peanuts. Pakistan would need to wait till its economy grows to afford these high tech toys. So up-gradations are a viable cost effective proposition where Pakistan is concerned. India too is upgrading its Mirage, Jaguar and Su 30 fleets.


 

Which was why there were news that IAF was not satisfied that the PakFa would fulfill its 5th gen fighter needs. This was reported by your own media. So who are we to believe. I think the bottom line is that the situation is very fluid, and PAF AND PLAAF are keeping a very close eye on the developments in the region. Pakistan has had a really uphill struggle with insurgency and aggression on the western border and a neighbour whom we frankly do not trust. Our survival needs will remain our priority and no one needs to be in any doubt about it. J10 may or may not fly in Pakistan AF colours but our defence needs will not lag behind. As a smaller country our acquisitions will always be reactive rather than proactive. We cannot and must not try and match you number for number and platform for platform.
Araz



Storm Force said:


> IF THIS IS TRUE and PAF are not to buy any J10 its a real wake up call to those Pakistani fanboys of J10 who where dreaming of a PAF equipped fleet of 100+ J10B over the next decade.
> 
> Military hardware is dam expensive to buy and to operate.
> 
> The only REASON PAF will not induct a chinease advanced J10B is due to COST ALONE.
> 
> *PAF SECNARIO LEFT FOR NEXT 10 YEARS *
> 
> 1.F16 great choice BUT VERY RISKY = imo as good as the J10 but FOR PAF a double edged sword that USA will always carry the threat of embargos & spare parts sanctions the second pakistan steps out of line against USA interests. Unforunately india is now a good friend and important trading partner of the usa & the WEST in general.
> 
> 2. JF17 great achievement and Pakistan will learn a great deal and be able to plug play and improve in block 2 & block 3.
> Disadvantage only carrys chinease radars and weapons and a russian engine and is a lightweight MR fighter so operatiional depolyment will be limited to Pak airspace only.
> 
> 3. Will leave PAF with 3-1 disadvantage in true 4 generation fighters as we speak. AND PAF cannot bridge this inferiority in nos by havng a CLEARLY SUPERIOR war plane which can easily out do the SU30MKI/MIG29/MIRAGE threat. The J10B in theory could have helped reduce the GAP .
> 
> 4. Those banking on a fifth generation chinease fighter will need to very paitent. Since no chinease fighter is ready for depolyment with PLAAF for at least 5-7 years and so we can add further 5 years for exports. Even if by 2025 PAF orders a J31 we are talking huge nos in cost. ie 4 times the cost of a single JF17. Maybe beyond PAF pockets even in 2025


 

Your AF also does not seem to be going anywhere either. Ths Rafale deal has not been signed so far and you never know what the new government is going to do. MMRCA is lagging behind and if the media is to be believed then PakFa will not filfill IAFs requirements for stealth aircraft. So there is time at hand to improve our economy and rethink our options.
araz

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## Chak Bamu

NKVD said:


> The Cost of J-31 is 130 million Flying cost not included So Sir how Many you are Planing to buy


Seems like you own SAC, and not the Chinese Government. Itna Pakka Hisaab kahan sai nikala hai?

Its between China and Pakistan, young one - you, India or any other does not figure in this.

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## Viper 94

not going for the j-10B is completely logical. Introducing a different aircraft with similar capabilities as f-16s and jf-17 will be a great hassle. PAF already has the infrastructure well in place for F-16 and JF-17 so it would be better to induct more of these fighters and start working on 5th generation fighters

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## Luftwaffe

NKVD said:


> The Cost of J-31 is 130 million Flying cost not included So Sir how Many you are Planing to buy



Who told you ram ramu kaka?

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## NKVD

Luftwaffe said:


> Who told you ram ramu kaka?


Its from Chinese defence sources and think tanks go find out yourself.A.k hangal


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## Informant

Yeti said:


> Many reasons for one we already operate mirages which are French so are pilots used to it, plus the French helped us out in the kargil war by letting us modify the jets very fast. Two they will give us full source codes and also tech transfer, I could go on and on stating the many reasons why Rafale is the best selection.



You're a bit mistaken on the full ToT.


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## Luftwaffe

NKVD said:


> Its from Chinese defence sources and think tanks go find out yourself.A.k hangal



Nope no Chinese defense "sources" say that, even the J-31 is considered as private project that might not live up perhaps another 5th Gen Aircraft comes to scene.

Next time give source links otherwise you are in for a post removal/Negative Rating.

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## tarrar

J10 B would had served real well in PAF. It was good if PAF had replaced old Mirage with J10 B.


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## bolo

Informant said:


> No T-200, J-2X can and does counter it
> 
> 
> 
> Nopes, mind you this is Chinese we're speaking off and we're Pakistanis. They have soft corner for us ( for whatever reasons) and we're grateful. $100 min for j20 might sound alright not J-31. It's like F22 vs F-35. $200 million plus vs $100million plus. The fact being this is Chinese so reduce price by half.


That is not possible. If it cost China $80m to make the plane , it's not selling to pak for $50m. That's wishful thinking.



Luftwaffe said:


> The expected cost in the future of F-35 is $80m thus at $60m J-31 is not expensive.


How did you get that cost for F35? Aussie just brought some and it's costing them $200m usd/each.

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## Nitin Goyal

How many new aircraft have been inducted by PAF in last decade from 2005- 14 ?


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## Informant

bolo said:


> That is not possible. If it cost China $80m to make the plane , it's not selling to pak for $50m. That's wishful thinking.
> 
> 
> How did you get that cost for F35? Aussie just brought some and it's costing them $200m usd/each.



There is no mention of Cost. It was a reference. They arent gonna eat $30m up for nobody. But they will ease the process and that is what counts. All that matters.


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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> The debate about J-10B acquisition needs to be ended. There are people always coming and asking about it, so its important that those questions are laid to rest.
> 
> PAF's eyes in my opinion are firmly placed on taking the leap into the next generation whenever its finances allow it to do so. Lastly, i do not think that the Jordanian vipers are the last ones to come to PAF. The PAF will most surely repeat what it did with the Mirage III/V.


Sir than please tell me How much JF-17 we would have to produce because as far as I know we need to more around 450 Fighter Jets at least and we would have to retire many Fighter Jets soon so can we produce so many JF-17 and also get F-16 to counter our enemy


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## Munir

OrionHunter said:


> Wait! Chinese are businessmen to the core. They ain't giving you anything for free nor even at half price nor even offer you the scheme: buy two, take one free!
> 
> The Jf-17 Thunders which you guys are getting from China *at discounted rates* are a different story altogether as the Chinese don't need them for their PLAAF at present, and are being produced jointly. Anything other than the Thunders is going to cost you the earth.



We get discounted rates? We own the plane design 50%. I understand that for an Indian it is extremely painful to see that either internal corruption, foreign inflated prices or the inability to produce anything inside India with all the help earth provides.... makes India a failed military nation... And even if they get something it is always the foreign party to blame... It is their spare parts or their mismanagement... And even if that is passed then there is the inability of the Indians to operate or maintain systems. Look at the number of accidents in the Navy... You guys are the biggest joke on earth. Go vote Modi. No vote for CP... It doesn't matter. One way or the other it is a failed democracy.

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## Luftwaffe

bolo said:


> How did you get that cost for F35? Aussie just brought some and it's costing them $200m usd/each.



I posted link/source...I mentioned future beyond 2020.


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## Zarvan

Munir said:


> We get discounted rates? We own the plane design 50%. I understand that for an Indian it is extremely painful to see that either internal corruption, foreign inflated prices or the inability to produce anything inside India with all the help earth provides.... makes India a failed military nation... And even if they get something it is always the foreign party to blame... It is their spare parts or their mismanagement... And even if that is passed then there is the inability of the Indians to operate or maintain systems. Look at the number of accidents in the Navy... You guys are the biggest joke on earth. Go vote Modi. No vote for CP... It doesn't matter. One way or the other it is a failed democracy.


Sir I have few questions if you guys can answer
First if we are not going for J-10B than we would soon have two kind of Fighter Jets that is JF-17 and F-16 are they enough and secondly we need to have around 450 Fighter Jets at least can we produce that number of JF-17 and also get more F-16 to counter three times bigger enemy @Luftwaffe @fatman17 @Aeronaut @Oscar


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## asad71

Any info on the use of JF-17 in the current ops? How's the performance?


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## Windjammer

he-man said:


> dosen't change much,,,5 th generation will be too much for pakistan
> either way who cares in india.
> *
> by 2025 we will have 126 rafales+272 mki+25-30 pakfa+40 tejas mk1+40-50 tejas mk2+50 upgraded mirage 2000+50-60 upgraded mig-29's apart from other small change.*
> 
> so we don't have any concern,i wish u best for what u buy



Calm down man, twenty years ago, you probably said same about your LCA.
On the contrary, some 15 years earlier Pakistan gave up hope on getting it's older generation F-16s, and some years later PAF has the top range versions in it's inventory. Defence requirements, procurements and even production fluctuates with the times hence no point in making Parrot predictions.

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## DANGER-ZONE

random247 said:


> But *I am sure PAC might be looking to produce J-31 in near future*.... to fill the 5th gap.



*NISHAN* ! My friend .... Really missed the fun for so many days.
Is this your fourth account ?

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## Mav3rick

RaptorRX707 said:


> Disappointed and outrage. It will leave our sky valuable for French Rafale threat.
> 
> Unfortunately PAF is lagging behind.



Well.....where exactly is the so called MMRCA that we have all been hearing about for the past 10 years?? We shall talk about J-10B/C when India actually inducts the Rafale!! The J-10X series was always going to be a response to Rafale......and well, no Rafale means no J-10X's!!

Besides, it is not like Pakistan & China will have to go through the decades long process of procurement in case India does actually acquire Rafale. Actually, I am quite confident that PAF will get her hands on the J-10's before IAF gets her hands on Rafale.

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## SQ8

Aeronaut said:


> @Oscar
> 
> What about VHF frequency Radars. PAK-FA is 'semi stealth', its goal is to get 'close enough' undetected to be able to engage the target using its IRST and R-77s.


Not exactly a very reliable means of detection. The signal processing complexity and finesse required for sorting out a PAK-FA sized RCS using VHF frequencies would require more than just an update to the radar. And if it really was the massive anti-stealth system we have been told about, there would be a lot more people getting into it. 
That is not to say that there is not a possibility to pick up a low rcs aircraft earlier with VHF frequencies, but whether it can provide a track reliably and enough for targeting is the question.

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## Munir

I do think that stealth adds options but DRFM does pretty much the same... Let say JF17 has DRFM and it has every possible Indian threat in its libraries... Would stealth do much more? I personally think that it is debatable. Radars are getting better and better. With linked up radars you can even filter stealth planes. Then you have indeed certain radars that can detect due to the used frequencies or even background noise... 

@Oscar Even if you cannot track at that time doesn't mean you can fire and wait till it can track later... You push the opponent into defensive. Same happened when bad quality BVR was introduced into a2a. 

We will see a lot more defensive suits when stealth is introduced in bigger numbers.


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## Zarvan

Windjammer said:


> Calm down man, twenty years ago, you probably said same about your LCA.
> On the contrary, some 15 years earlier Pakistan gave up hope on getting it's older generation F-16s, and some years later PAF has the top range versions in it's inventory. Defence requirements, procurements and even production fluctuates with the times hence no point in making Parrot predictions.


Sir I have question if we are not going for J-10 B that means soon we would have only two kind of Fighter Jets that is F-16 and JF-17 and we need at least 450 Fighter Jets to counter India will these twos jets combined be close to 450 if not than we would need a third Air Craft @Munir @Luftwaffe @fatman17 @Oscar


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## Windjammer

Zarvan said:


> Sir I have few questions if you guys can answer
> First if we are not going for J-10B than we would soon have two kind of Fighter Jets that is JF-17 and F-16 are they enough and secondly we need to have around 450 Fighter Jets at least can we produce that number of JF-17 and also get more F-16 to counter three times bigger enemy @Luftwaffe @fatman17 @Aeronaut @Oscar


Don't forget the F-7PG in the PAF inventory, it's going to be around for a good few years yet and not without reason.
Remember it was sent in to exercise with the likes of Raptor, Dessert Falcon and Mirage-2000. Oscar can tell you a few things about the PG to understand it's potential and capability.







​

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## FNFAL

Zarvan said:


> Sir I have question if we are not going for J-10 B that means soon we would have only two kind of Fighter Jets that is F-16 and JF-17 and we need at least 450 Fighter Jets to counter India will these twos jets combined be close to 450 if not than we would need a third Air Craft


The PAF still envisons the F16 as the definitive top line fighter your force will use for the days to come.
The JF17 is a poor man's viper that will fill the 2nd tier and will replace the antique mirage iii/Vs and the F7s. 
If my assumptions are correct, it would go a long way in increasing maintainability across the board, and you should be happy. Howsoever you may dream, India wont attack pak in the coming decades and hence negates the need for tit for tat purchase to offset the mmrca. Later on when the j31 matures and if your finances allow, you may take that route..but i dont see the same for the next 8-10 years as PAF would be more busy in getting the JF17 is required quantities


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## Munir

Zarvan said:


> Sir I have question if we are not going for J-10 B that means soon we would have only two kind of Fighter Jets that is F-16 and JF-17 and we need at least 450 Fighter Jets to counter India will these twos jets combined be close to 450 if not than we would need a third Air Craft @Munir @Luftwaffe @fatman17 @Oscar



You need diversity. That is west and east. There is no diversity in the role of the planes anymore. The weapons are pretty much intelligent so you can add them whenever you want. The planes are multi role. There is no real a2g or a2a plane these days, it is about how much you wanna transport. Since we are not going for long range (although F16 with CFT and big wingtanks can do nicely that) you already have enough with F16 and JF17.

Let me ask you something. What extra would another single engined plane give to pump another say 2-5 billion USD into it? Maybe stealth in the shape of J31 but till then...



FNFAL said:


> The PAF still envisons the F16 as the definitive top line fighter your force will use for the days to come.
> The JF17 is a poor man's viper that will fill the 2nd tier and will replace the antique mirage iii/Vs and the F7s.
> If my assumptions are correct, it would go a long way in increasing maintainability across the board, and you should be happy. Howsoever you may dream, India wont attack pak in the coming decades and hence negates the need for tit for tat purchase to offset the mmrca. Later on when the j31 matures and if your finances allow, you may take that route..but i dont see the same for the next 8-10 years as PAF would be more busy in getting the JF17 is required quantities



When I am well informed you will have enough headache with the block 3 poor man's viper... I am so sorry for members I cannot say more. But I am looking forward to certain planning I do know...

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## Zarvan

Munir said:


> You need diversity. That is west and east. There is no diversity in the role of the planes anymore. The weapons are pretty much intelligent so you can add them whenever you want. The planes are multi role. There is no real a2g or a2a plane these days, it is about how much you wanna transport. Since we are not going for long range (although F16 with CFT and big wingtanks can do nicely that) you already have enough with F16 and JF17.
> 
> Let me ask you something. What extra would another single engined plane give to pump another say 2-5 billion USD into it? Maybe stealth in the shape of J31 but till then...
> 
> 
> 
> When I am well informed you will have enough headache with the block 3 poor man's viper... I am so sorry for members I cannot say more. But I am looking forward to certain planning I do know...


Sir okay if not J-10 B would be able to produce so many JF-17 and get so many F-16 which makes us reach at least 450 Fighter Jets ???????



Munir said:


> You need diversity. That is west and east. There is no diversity in the role of the planes anymore. The weapons are pretty much intelligent so you can add them whenever you want. The planes are multi role. There is no real a2g or a2a plane these days, it is about how much you wanna transport. Since we are not going for long range (although F16 with CFT and big wingtanks can do nicely that) you already have enough with F16 and JF17.
> 
> Let me ask you something. What extra would another single engined plane give to pump another say 2-5 billion USD into it? Maybe stealth in the shape of J31 but till then...
> 
> 
> 
> When I am well informed you will have enough headache with the block 3 poor man's viper... I am so sorry for members I cannot say more. But I am looking forward to certain planning I do know...


So according to you Sir work BLOCK 3 has already started

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## FNFAL

Munir said:


> When I am well informed you will have enough headache with the block 3 poor man's viper... I am so sorry for members I cannot say more. But I am looking forward to certain planning I do know


Pardon if I may be wrong,the current batch is equal to Block 15 F16s, block 2 is years away and block 3 even further down the line. 
Headache? Yes definitely, no enemy should be underestimated. That is reason i say that PAF would want this bird in quantities. Remember, if the us decides to mothball your supplies, your falcons would sit , but your jf17s would fly. That is reason,and not because the jf17 is superior to f16.
Care to spill the beans ?


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## volatile

FNFAL said:


> Pardon if I may be wrong,the current batch is equal to Block 15 F16s, block 2 is years away and block 3 even further down the line.
> Headache? Yes definitely, no enemy should be underestimated. That is reason i say that PAF would want this bird in quantities. Remember, if the us decides to mothball your supplies, your falcons would sit , but your jf17s would fly. That is reason,and not because the jf17 is superior to f16.
> Care to spill the beans ?



Uff i hate it when people start repeating same question JF-17 block 1 firstly not equivalent to block 15 (BVR enabled) Secondly why PAF will be investing to get 1980s Tech is this some thing you should really understand as most of things about JF-17 is deep secret not disclosed so please refrain from such comments

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## FNFAL

volatile said:


> Uff i hate it when people start repeating same question JF-17 block 1 firstly not equivalent to block 15 (BVR enabled) Secondly why PAF will be investing to get 1980s Tech is this some thing you should really understand as most of things about JF-17 is deep secret not disclosed so please refrain from such comments


Sorry to get your BP high 
Actually the capability was discussed on another aviation forum where many pak members said the same .

Regarding technology, you do know about the roots of the JF17? It is also a 70/80's tech . Whatever tech will be added for subsequent blocks are existing technologies that are already in service with airforces around the world. Its not that jf17 is the next f22 killer. So chillax.


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## volatile

FNFAL said:


> Regarding technology, you do know about the roots of the JF17? It is also a 70/80's tech


How Please prove as DSI/HMD/BVR is this available in 70/80s ,



FNFAL said:


> Whatever tech will be added for subsequent blocks are existing technologies that are already in service with airforces around the world



PLease do read some thing/do your home work first then debate.

Its not that jf17 is the next f22 killer. So chillax.

Its never intended to be Its just replacement of 70/80s Tech (Yoo Happy now i have used 70/80 word for JF-17)


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## FNFAL

volatile said:


> How Please Prove as DSI/HMD/BVR is this available in 70/80s ,
> 
> PLease do read some thing/do your home work first then debate.
> 
> Its never intended to be Its just replacement of 70/80s Tech (Yoo Happy now i have used 70/80 word for JF-17)



My ill-informed friend Even our old MIG21's and Romanian Mig21 Lancers have HMD with BVR capability.The early gen Mig29s/Su27s had the same. In that context BVR was achieved in 1954 with a sparrow 1. 
DSI is not a big deal. It was first tested in the early 90s and was incorporated in a block 30 F16 waaaaay back in 1996, OF late it appears only in Chinese jets and the F35. Thats it.

The basic air-frame and design still has its roots in the cancelled mig single fighter to counter the f16 and then the chinese and american involvement/ Avionics and weapon packages will always surge ahead.And that is the reason why a 1950's mig21 with upgrades and with decent support can hold its own to a certain extent againts a more modern jet

Coming to the need of jf17, as i had mentioned earlier, that is a poor mans viper that is intended to fulfill at-least 70-80% of a early gen F16 but a reduced price as PAF envisons to replace all obsolete aircraft with this type- that includes the f7pgs and the Mirage roses. AM i denying is a good aircraft for the money? NO. But at the same time please do not equate the same with a F16 Block 60 or a Grippen NG. Sab ka limit hota hain yaar  . CHill.Pleas do not take any negative feeling

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## IND151

PWFI said:


> We are not Indian please don't compare us with you, you guys are even not capable to build a 4 generation fighter with help from all around the world, where as we are getting ready to introduce Jf-17 block II. Please don't insult us, stop comparing us with you



The industrial capability of Pakistan is behind that of India and Pakistani is way behind India in aerospace sector.

The fact that we are world's 4th largest steel producer and are able to send probe on moon should tell you something. 

IAF can afford to not induct Tejas until it is fully mature; Jf-17 is still not fully mature and neither, unlike Tejas, is JV where Chinese share in development is far greater than that of Pakistani.

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## Munir

FNFAL said:


> Pardon if I may be wrong,the current batch is equal to Block 15 F16s, block 2 is years away and block 3 even further down the line.
> Headache? Yes definitely, no enemy should be underestimated. That is reason i say that PAF would want this bird in quantities. Remember, if the us decides to mothball your supplies, your falcons would sit , but your jf17s would fly. That is reason,and not because the jf17 is superior to f16.
> Care to spill the beans ?



I love the ignore option. I love the personal moderating option of just throw time consuming waste away... Love it.



IND151 said:


> The industrial capability of Pakistan is behind that of India.
> 
> IAF can afford to not induct Tejas until it is fully mature; Jf-17 is still not fully mature and neither, unlike Tejas, is JV where Chinese share in development is far greater than that of Pakistani.



Can afford to what? You're number of squadrons is going down like no other... Hahahahaha. You cannot produce simple delta with the help of everyone. That has nothing to do with can afford but purely not able to do anything. Another one on ignore list.

I just want to add that I do not believe that Pakistani are the best or able to deliver the latest without any effort... But I am shocked to the limitless arrogance of Indian members. Elite or not. They are hardly on earth. Trust me. I do not hate Indians. But the big numbers on the internet are hardly aware that their nation is not able to handle big projects. Lots of hot air. Superb sheets... But in the end they run to Israel, USA, Russia and cry not to deliver Pakistan anything. That is not a superpower to me. That is a spoiled child without brains.

they had some cope India with hardly armed and limited USA planes and start shouting that their mig21 are better.... We flew with PG against F22. Against block60. Against Mirage 2000-9. Hell, even against F15's... Or Ef2000... Do you hear anything directly?

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## IND151

AUz said:


> This incident happened. Senior members here have themselves attested to it. (Some members, who are either currently serving in Pakistan military and have contacts have themselves talked to people who were involved in the interception (whether as ground radar operators or whatever) )
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is talking about what IAF or PAF claims. We are talking about numbers from neutral data-bases such as ACIG.org.
> 
> Look at the thread, even senior Indian members accept it. lol
> 
> The fact is that PAF has shot down way many more indian aircrafts than vice versa. That is a fact accepted by all.
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> Su-30MKI and Miraage-2000 entered in two different sectors.
> *
> Early 'lock-on' was done by one F-16...later, the back-up arrived*.
> 
> not all 7 were F-16s
> 
> It was a mix of F-16 and other aircrafts...



Kindly provide link for claim. 



> The fact is that PAF has shot down way many more indian aircrafts than vice versa. That is a fact accepted by all.



Out of which majority were strike aircrafts heavy armed with munitions to attack ground targets.

If you are really interested in dogfight, you will be pleased to enjoy this, I believe, sire.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...=JfQkbV02SgEXHWCqdbazoQ&bvm=bv.66330100,d.c2E


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## FNFAL

Munir said:


> I love the ignore option. I love the personal moderating option of just throw time consuming waste away... Love it.


Silence is a form of consent. I guess we agree to what is shared.


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## IND151

Munir said:


> I love the ignore option. I love the personal moderating option of just throw time consuming waste away... Love it.
> 
> 
> 
> *Can afford to what? You're number of squadrons is going down like no other... Hahahahaha. You cannot produce simple delta with the help of everyone*. That has nothing to do with can afford but purely not able to do anything. Another one on ignore list.
> 
> I just want to add that I do not believe that Pakistani are the best or able to deliver the latest without any effort... But I am shocked to the limitless arrogance of Indian members. Elite or not. They are hardly on earth. Trust me. I do not hate Indians. But the big numbers on the internet are hardly aware that their nation is not able to handle big projects. Lots of hot air. Superb sheets... *But in the end they run to Israel, USA, Russia and cry not to deliver Pakistan anything*. That is not a superpower to me. That is a spoiled child without brains.



*And the fact that we directly jumped from license building second gen jets to develop 4th gen jet on own did help us great, right*?

And *US was very happy after 1998 and gave us all secrets and learning curves it gained in ATF program*, right sire?

And the fact that *Jf-17 is JV where Pak*, unlike India,* did not develop critical avionics like FBW*, is very minor, right, 'sire'?


*



But in the end they run to Israel, USA, Russia and cry not to deliver Pakistan anything.

Click to expand...

*
And we should not worry when you receive help on nuke weapons program?

US objected when Russia tried to give us cryo tech, We were denied the tech.

But we eventually developed the tech and successfully tested GSLV Mk II D 5.
*
*


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## volatile

FNFAL said:


> My ill-informed friend Even our old MIG21's and Romanian Mig21 Lancers have HMD with BVR capability.The early gen Mig29s/Su27s had the same.


Please provide source (BISON) upgrade when and how.



FNFAL said:


> . In that context BVR was achieved in 1954 with a sparrow 1.



Effective depolyment and true BVR with 70+ KM Range .Not 1-5 Km 



FNFAL said:


> DSI is not a big deal. It was first tested in the early 90s and was incorporated in a block 30 F16 waaaaay back in 1996, OF late it appears only in Chinese jets and the F35. Thats it.


Great thats why they waited for F-35 to come up with this Tech .



FNFAL said:


> The basic air-frame and design still has its roots in the cancelled mig single fighter to counter the f16 and then the chinese and american involvement/ Avionics and weapon packages will always surge ahead.And that is the reason why a 1950's mig21 with upgrades and with decent support can hold its own to a certain extent againts a more modern jet


Bla bla sheer frustration no logics .



FNFAL said:


> Coming to the need of jf17, as i had mentioned earlier, that is a poor mans viper that is intended to fulfill at-least 70-80% of a early gen F16 but a reduced price as PAF envisons to replace all obsolete aircraft with this type- that includes the f7pgs and the Mirage roses.



Poor Mans Viper Interesting name/Slogan probably some expert can comment as i belive both are in totally different league .Yes replacement very true.No offense taken ,as your arguments suggested that PAF has wrongly invested in project with no future potential at this stage .I am convinced no other platform offers so much promises for future as JF-17 .Considering Stealth version is on drawing board.(min Capability equivalent to F-16 is just benchmark) true potential hold many more. 

Step -1 introduce a fighter which is New/Not reliable/Not Proven. (considering lot have been done in Step-1),Improve Avionics ,Test all avionics/System/Ammunition
Step -2 Improve based on Fighter inputs from Step-1 (put Refulleing probe) Advance weapons/avionics)
Step -3 New Engine /New Avionincs/increased Pay load CFTs.
Step- 4 and you can go on and on 


Yar you really are some thing .Thing is we can buy used F-16 as all air forces are retiring these and PAF has capability of keeping birds in air for quite a long time.



FNFAL said:


> NO. But at the same time please do not equate the same with a F16 Block 60 or a Grippen NG. Sab ka limit hota hain yaar

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## IND151

Munir said:


> I love the ignore option. I love the personal moderating option of just throw time consuming waste away... Love it.
> 
> 
> 
> Can afford to what? You're number of squadrons is going down like no other... Hahahahaha.* You cannot produce simple delta with the help of everyone. That has nothing to do with can afford but purely not able to do anything. Another one on ignore list*.
> 
> I just want to add that I do not believe that Pakistani are the best or able to deliver the latest without any effort... But I am shocked to the limitless arrogance of Indian members. Elite or not. They are hardly on earth. Trust me. I do not hate Indians. But the big numbers on the internet are hardly aware that their nation is not able to handle big projects. Lots of hot air. Superb sheets... But in the end they run to Israel, USA, Russia and cry not to deliver Pakistan anything. That is not a superpower to me. That is a spoiled child without brains.
> 
> they had some cope India with hardly armed and limited USA planes and start shouting that their mig21 are better.... We flew with PG against F22. Against block60. Against Mirage 2000-9. Hell, even against F15's... Or Ef2000... Do you hear anything directly?




Just tell me whether Jf-17 is JV or not?



> You're number of squadrons is going down like no other



Which is a temporary phase which well soon vanish in coming years when Rafales and LCAs start arriving in IAF.

Every air force faces such situation at least once, when it has large percentage of old platforms while new ones are getting inducted at slower place.

What meant is we can afford to wait for Tejas becoming mature enough before it gets inducted, since war is not imminent.

IAF's acceptance standards are high.


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## Munir

Just to move away from serious answer... If PAF trust 80 era F16 ADF to handle IAF then that does make you all feel bad... How come? Maybe ask USA to stop this or that. 

Anyway the much tooted Bison. If it flies with two BVR... It has no fueltanks under the wing. What is the range? What is the speed? What is the radar range? To my knowledge (which is basic) it can go up. Fly not that fast and not that far from the airfield. Hope that the opponent does not track it first or use BVR before the Bison... And hopefully the radar signatures of the Bison and the BVR is not in the library... Then maybe it can become a winner. We still hope it survives the launch of its own BVR and is able to land back within a few minutes. Still better then the not operational LCA. Your MKI are not able to avoid civil air traffic. What will they do during wartime? fight weather balloons? Or track stars cause they might be UFO's?

A fun link not related to the topic but more to the posters..

http://www.condomdepot.com/learn/detail.cfm/cid/116

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## IND151

Windjammer said:


> Lets just talk for the present , shall we. !!
> 
> The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — War is Boring — Medium



Every new fighter has glitches in its development phase.

They are gradually removed, over many marks/ bloks.


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## FNFAL

Google on the Bisons, its even there on a youtube vid,,you can see the R77s and HMDs on th mig21 pilot
By definition , BVR means beyond 37kms..and thats not 1-2 kms 
Sheer frustation? No...the USAF pilots were quite surprised on meeting the MIg21s. Not that they were scared but held respect 
You can study and build on logic.

JF17s were compared with the f16 and hence the coinage .The league is different but the aspirations of pakisatnis are not.
Wrongly invested? No, They simply do not have a better offer on hand. The financial condition of pakistan is not great to get modern western fighter in different roles to satisfy its need. IMHO you folks could have gone for the Grippen NG albeit in lesser numbers, but hey that is what you AF folks did not decide.
JF 17 has a lot of scope to improve and mature - into a true 4th gen aircraft from its current standing and which is not a bad thing as you would have considerable older gen aircraft to retire.

For F16s , this aircraft is battle proven and ur pilts have mastered it.It would only make more sense to get more of these to maintain them as the definitive Air Supp fighter from PAF.


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## FNFAL

Munir said:


> Just to move away from serious answer... If PAF trust 80 era F16 ADF to handle IAF then that does make you all feel bad... How come? Maybe ask USA to stop this or that.
> Anyway the much tooted Bison. If it flies with two BVR... It has no fueltanks under the wing. What is the range? What is the speed? What is the radar range? To my knowledge (which is basic) it can go up. Fly not that fast and not that far from the airfield. Hope that the opponent does not track it first or use BVR before the Bison... And hopefully the radar signatures of the Bison and the BVR is not in the library... Then maybe it can become a winner. We still hope it survives the launch of its own BVR and is able to land back within a few minutes. Still better then the not operational LCA. Your MKI are not able to avoid civil air traffic. What will they do during wartime? fight weather balloons? Or track stars cause they might be UFO's?




It has nothing to make me feel happy sad or funny..its your air, use the best tool to defend it, IMHO a F16 Block 60 is mile ahead of a unproven design. But hey if you still wanna blv your JF17s are better, be my guest.

Comin to the rant on MIg21s, you sounded so juvenile. Mig 21 is not the future of the IAF. Also i dont think you understand the role of MIg 21... It was a point interceptor. Guided by GCI it was to pounce on its target already discovered. The same goes for the first gen Mig29As and Bs. Do remember,how PN atlantique was shot down.
Coming to MKIs Please read the same from the incident :
"
Reports suggested that two civilian planes of Thai Airways and another foreign operator were flying around 10 nautical miles away from the IAF aircraft.

The IAF denied that there was any "near-miss incident" involving its aircraft as it was under positive radar coverage and was cleared for operating in that area."

UFO near IB, IAF scrambles Sukhoi-30MKI - Economic Times

Its not my fault if the world doesn't share your enthusiasm bout jf17. Sure to you it may be the next f22 in the making, for me its still a poor mans viper.

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## Windjammer

FNFAL said:


> Google on the Bisons, its even there on a youtube vid,,you can see the R77s and HMDs on th mig21 pilot
> By definition , BVR means beyond 37kms..and thats not 1-2 kms
> Sheer frustation? No...the USAF pilots were quite surprised on meeting the MIg21s. Not that they were scared but held respect
> You can study and build on logic.
> 
> JF17s were compared with the f16 and hence the coinage .The league is different but the aspirations of pakisatnis are not.
> Wrongly invested? No, They simply do not have a better offer on hand. The financial condition of pakistan is not great to get modern western fighter in different roles to satisfy its need. IMHO you folks could have gone for the Grippen NG albeit in lesser numbers, but hey that is what you AF folks did not decide.
> JF 17 has a lot of scope to improve and mature - into a true 4th gen aircraft from its current standing and which is not a bad thing as you would have considerable older gen aircraft to retire.
> 
> For F16s , this aircraft is battle proven and ur pilts have mastered it.It would only make more sense to get more of these to maintain them as the definitive Air Supp fighter from PAF.


You are ignorant of one main factor, while India may have the money but no brains to fund new fighters, even after decades of delays, it's still keen to produce and induct the LCA. The failure is all the more astonishing as in the past India has had experience with the likes of HF-24 and Ajeet. When the JFT project was initiated, it was a desire to be self sufficient than the financial issue alas it's Pakistan which repeatedly had to face embargoes which affected the PAF more than any other services.

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## SC_really

do you know a project is named “AFC”


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## Black Widow

So no J10B... 


Look like Pakistan is going to rely on FC1 and old F16s ...


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## FNFAL

Windjammer said:


> You are ignorant of one main factor, while India may have the money but no brains to fund new fighters, even after decades of delays, it's still keen to produce and induct the LCA. The failure is all the more astonishing as in the past India has had experience with the likes of HF-24 and Ajeet. When the JFT project was initiated, it was a desire to be self sufficient than the financial issue alas it's Pakistan which repeatedly had to face embargoes which affected the PAF more than any other services.



The fact that you had the drag the IAF ,marut,sabre slayers and LCA points to the insecurity that you have the future PAF. Not once in my posts to relevant members have i spoken of LCA and IAFs answer to the same. Why troll if you cannot contribute?

PAF chose or got the JF17 because it cannot AFFORD anything better. Off-course you are going to face embargoes with borrowed technology. As i said better, JF 17 has a lot of scope to be a true 4th gen fighter in next decade(s)


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## PWFI

IND151 said:


> The industrial capability of Pakistan is behind that of India and Pakistani is way behind India in aerospace sector.
> 
> The fact that we are world's 4th largest steel producer and are able to send probe on moon should tell you something.
> 
> IAF can afford to not induct Tejas until it is fully mature; Jf-17 is still not fully mature and neither, unlike Tejas, is JV where Chinese share in development is far greater than that of Pakistani.



If pakistan industrial capablity is behind india, and it still achieve to produce MF-17 super mushak, K-8, Jf-17 and even export it, then shame on india whose product can't get more than a prototype. If india can afford to not induct Tejas until it is fully mature, it doesn't mean he's capable to built one, get the difference?Yes, pakistan get help from china, so does india, everything is imported, even the disign is imported, and you guys are still incapable to make a 4th generation aircraft after 30 year.

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## Kompromat

@Zarvan l We are looking at between 150-250 Thunders in III blocks plus more F-16s.

@asad71 - As far as i know, the Air Force is extremely pleased by Thunders so far.

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## Windjammer

FNFAL said:


> The fact that you had the drag the IAF ,marut,sabre slayers and LCA points to the insecurity that you have the future PAF. Not once in my posts to relevant members have i spoken of LCA and IAFs answer to the same. Why troll if you cannot contribute?
> 
> PAF chose or got the JF17 because it cannot AFFORD anything better. Off-course you are going to face embargoes with borrowed technology. As i said better, JF 17 has a lot of scope to be a true 4th gen fighter in next decade(s)


Albeit you did repeatedly mention the Bison in your posts, nonetheless there was no question of dragging in or any comparison, it was merely to give you an idea of the ground realities but since you had to mention the so called Sabre slayer, well we actually have a shiny example sitting in a museum. As for the affordability the block-52s were bought while the JFT was well into progress in fact i think the JFT was inducted before the Vipers arrived.

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## Munir

About the ADF. These are planned to go through MLU to get it equal to all other F16's. With that these planes are the cheapest ever block52's  And since block 52 is pretty good plane I think it is no longer question whether these assets will be valuable or not. To remind you of the reality. PAF non MLU f16's were able to stop MKI with all the goodies during encounter near the borders. When we had F7's they Indians entered the Pakistani area but returned before they were contacted.

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## FNFAL

Windjammer said:


> Albeit you did repeatedly mention the Bison in your posts, nonetheless there was no question of dragging in or any comparison, it was merely to give you an idea of the ground realities but since you had to mention the so called Sabre slayer, well we actually have a shiny example sitting in a museum. As for the affordability the block-52s were bought while the JFT was well into progress in fact i think the JFT was inducted before the Vipers arrived.



That response was to another member who confused BVR tech being post 2000s .... Still i do not see the logic behind bringing LCA when talking of R77s and Sparrows. For the sabre slayer, to each his definition after the battle of Boyra.

Coming to f16s and Jf17s, as i have stated, jf17s were the only viable option with BVR back in the day,,this was before the US congress approved the sale of amraams ..PAf realised that JF17 along with the SD10 may be the only BVR capable aircrfat in its inventory. Plus , also the aging f7s and mirages have to go, what better than a poor mans viper.



Munir said:


> To remind you of the reality. PAF non MLU f16's were able to stop MKI with all the goodies during encounter near the borders. When we had F7's they Indians entered the Pakistani area but returned before they were contacted.


I find many enthusiastic pakistani members quoting such a cute incident. Can i have a non pakistani source?


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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Sir I have question if we are not going for J-10 B that means soon we would have only two kind of Fighter Jets that is F-16 and JF-17 and we need at least 450 Fighter Jets to counter India will these twos jets combined be close to 450 if not than we would need a third Air Craft @Munir @Luftwaffe @fatman17 @Oscar


Bhai.
We will not require that manuy fighters on account of the technology leap that JFT has taken ie BVR capable ,good EW suiteand faster turnaround.. The reaosn we have so many numbers is because of fighters with specified roles in PAF currently. With multi role fighters we would not require that. We will contiue to have some PGs and some M3s which are later frames till they finish out hteir stint. It must be understoof that what has been said is not the official position of PAF and as mentioned before the situation is under constant review. The choices will be made easier as the chinese engines come on line and mature, as some of the current concerns will be alleviated.
Araz

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## Munir

A few years ago I had the honor with talking to Swiss official during my visit to Meieringen. They were in the middle of Gripen deal. He told me something valuable. It is not the number of planes that make a big deal and even totally surrounded by Nato something not positive... Without planes going up to stop intruders the Swiss would be used an abused. So they might have a few planes, every time someone comes near the border they are there to stop.

We have not that low numbers... But it is clear we do not need 1v1... We will defend and we have done with much smaller numbers and even bigger difference in quantity. And there is always the army that will stop. Remember the chai in Lahore? I guess we know that this time there will be not even chai in Mumbai...

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## IND151

Munir said:


> About the ADF. These are planned to go through MLU to get it equal to all other F16's. With that these planes are the cheapest ever block52's  And since block 52 is pretty good plane I think it is no longer question whether these assets will be valuable or not. To remind you of the reality. PAF non MLU f16's were able to stop MKI with all the goodies during encounter near the borders. *When we had F7's they Indians entered the Pakistani area but returned before they were contacted*.



Kindly provide source for claim.


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## Windjammer

FNFAL said:


> That response was to another member who confused BVR tech being post 2000s .... Still i do not see the logic behind bringing LCA when talking of R77s and Sparrows. For the sabre slayer, to each his definition after the battle of Boyra.
> 
> Coming to f16s and Jf17s, as i have stated, jf17s were the only viable option with BVR back in the day,,this was before the US congress approved the sale of amraams ..PAf realised that JF17 along with the SD10 may be the only BVR capable aircrfat in its inventory. Plus , also the aging f7s and mirages have to go, what better than a poor mans viper.
> 
> 
> I find many enthusiastic pakistani members quoting such a cute incident. Can i have a non pakistani source?



Poor man's vipers . eh.... do you keep referring to JFT as such since it's destined to shoot down some poorly trained pilots or is it that by demeaning others, gets your ticker going. In any case some internet warriors frivolous comments are obsolete however those pitted against the JFT do matter and thus hold regards. Basically you have no knowledge about how PAF operates or it's capabilities...here's a hint, in the middle of 2002 stand off, PAF inducted a squadron of F-7PGs, if it just wanted an aircraft to shoot guns or sidewinders, it could have stuck with the 7P version which it already was quite familiar with. work on that.

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## IND151

PWFI said:


> *If pakistan industrial capablity is behind india, and it still achieve to produce MF-17 super mushak, K-8, Jf-17 and even export it*, then shame on india whose product can't get more than a prototype. If india can afford to not induct Tejas until it is fully mature, it doesn't mean he's capable to built one, get the difference?Yes, pakistan get help from china, so does india, everything is imported, even the disign is imported, and you guys are still incapable to make a 4th generation aircraft after 30 year.



We had problem with Tejas and Arjun, but most of them are solved.



> *If pakistan industrial capablity is behind india, and it still achieve to produce MF-17 super mushak, K-8, Jf-17 and even export it.*



Pakistan's industrial capacity is behind ours and in aerospace sector we are eons ahead.

We have flag on moon and are exploring mars.

Let me ask you; we are building our own satellite navigation system, testing sophisticated SLBMs with 3,000 KM plus range, have developed MR SAM like Akash which has been ordered in thousands by IA and IAF.

What does this suggest?

Jf-17 is JV not entire Pakistani product while Tejas has been developed solely by India with consultancy from foreign firms, but the India remains sole developer.

I am not denying that Pakistan has made contribution in JF-17. PAC has made significant contribution in JF-17 and will utilize the expertise they gained in future projects.

But fact is *Jf-17 is JV while in case of Tejas, India is sole developer*, which had *no experience of developing fighters before Tejas*, faced sanctions; on other hand *China had much more expertise of developing fighters, which it gained through various means*.

So before comparing both projects consider this facts too.

*India has developed many critical subsystems like FBW in Tejas, has Pak done same in JFT?*

Remember "produced" is not "developed."

When Tejas gets IOC 2 and other certificates it will be introduced in large numbers in IAF.

At the end of the day JF-17 remains a JV while Tejas remains the product solely developed by India.

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## Windjammer

IND151 said:


> Kindly provide source for claim.



The Day PAF Routed Out IAF

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## IND151

Windjammer said:


> The Day PAF Routed Out IAF



Give me the neutral source or Pakistani source backed by neutral sources.


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## acetophenol

PWFI said:


> If pakistan industrial capablity is behind india, and it still achieve to produce MF-17 super mushak, K-8, Jf-17 and even export it, then shame on india whose product can't get more than a prototype. If india can afford to not induct Tejas until it is fully mature, it doesn't mean he's capable to built one, get the difference?Yes, pakistan get help from china, so does india, everything is imported, even the disign is imported, and you guys are still incapable to make a 4th generation aircraft after 30 year.


Both K-8 and Jf-17s are JVs. If you want to compare,use India's JV with Russia,Su-30MKI. India has own made HT-2,HJT-16 "Kiran" and HPT-32 "Deepak" which formed the back bone of IAF training fleet. India also produces/produced multiple aircrafts in India.


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## Windjammer

IND151 said:


> Give me the neutral source or Pakistani source backed by neutral sources.


What's a neutral source, India was the offender and PAF the defender, surely it wasn't a warlike situation that you would have foreign observers/ correspondence reporting from the ground. One could argue, what neutral source is there to confirm that US indeed killed OBL.

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## IND151

Windjammer said:


> What's a neutral source, India was the offender and PAF the defender, surely it wasn't a warlike situation that you would have foreign observers/ correspondence reporting from the ground.* One could argue, what neutral source is there to confirm that US indeed killed OBL*.



Whcih means you dont have nuetral source.

I have read similar type of story where Pakistani F-16s intruded in Indian airspace and one of then was locked on by Mig 29.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...Yrc3Vhke458tx26SpmT97xw&bvm=bv.66330100,d.c2E


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## Munir

acetophenol said:


> Both K-8 and Jf-17s are JVs. If you want to compare,use India's JV with Russia,Su-30MKI. India has own made HT-2,HJT-16 "Kiran" and HPT-32 "Deepak" which formed the back bone of IAF training fleet. India also produces/produced multiple aircrafts in India.



Where did the engine's come from? Who designed the HT-2? What did India do exactly in MKI? Let me be simple. You can call it JV but there is hardly JV in your case. You do not have the capability to produce a turboprop trainer, not a decent 3 th gen fighter and your JV with PAKFA is as much JV as it was with Brahmos or any other "JV". You guys are funny.

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## Kompromat

Stick to the topic guys.

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## acetophenol

Munir said:


> Where did the engine's come from? Who designed the HT-2? What did India do exactly in MKI? Let me be simple. You can call it JV but there is hardly JV in your case. You do not have the capability to produce a turboprop trainer, not a decent 3 th gen fighter and your JV with PAKFA is as much JV as it was with Brahmos or any other "JV". You guys are funny.


The engines for HT-2 was sourced from UK,later license made in India. It was designed by V.M Ghatge. Some of the direct contributions of India in the MKI project includes the "Tarang" RWR and MFDs by HAL-SAMTEL. Apart from that 150+ Indian vendors supply components,from the Aeromuscle tyres to the license built engines. We have license built multiple 3rd generation combat jets,upgraded them ourselves to cutting edge status and have our own aircrafts as well. Now what exactly is Pakistan's contribution in Jf-17 project?


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## Irfan Baloch

Aeronaut said:


> Stick to the topic guys.


I am secretly happy about this cancellation
call it my lack of information but I suspect that future blocks of JF-17 will provide us everything that J-10 family has at the moment.

furthermore our F-16s both MLU and block 52 pretty much more than cover for what J-10 has at the moment.

so I hail that decision to ditch J-10 consolidate focus and resources on JF-17 and future 5th generation platforms.

its a mirror image of what China did... it has frog leaped to J-10 from its F-7s and hence its understandable it doesnt need JF-17s for its airforce as it has its own J-11, J-16 and 2 other 5th generation aircraft's to cover for everything.

I understand J-17 and J-10 are not like for like comparison but I am looking at their role viz a viz the country they are operated by.

indirectly I dare say JF-17 has done more than expected.

comments?

ps. please open up a conversation with me thx

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## he-man

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am secretly happy about this cancellation
> call it my lack of information but I suspect that future blocks of JF-17 will provide us everything that J-10 family has at the moment.
> 
> furthermore our F-16s both MLU and block 52 pretty much more than cover for what J-10 has at the moment.
> 
> so I hail that decision to ditch J-10 consolidate focus and resources on JF-17 and future 5th generation platforms.
> 
> its a mirror image of what China did... it has frog leaped to J-10 from its F-7s and hence its understandable it doesnt need JF-17s for its airforce as it has its own J-11, J-16 and 2 other 5th generation aircraft's to cover for everything.
> 
> I understand J-17 and J-10 are not like for like comparison but I am looking at their role viz a viz the country they are operated by.
> 
> indirectly I dare say JF-17 has done more than expected.
> 
> comments?
> 
> ps. please open up a conversation with me thx



j-10b is just at another level vs jf-17,,,,and thats the brutal truth.

but i can understand pakistan wanting a 5 gen fighter and not j-10,,,,but comparing jf-17 with j-10b is pure madness


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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am secretly happy about this cancellation
> call it my lack of information but I suspect that future blocks of JF-17 will provide us everything that J-10 family has at the moment.
> 
> furthermore our F-16s both MLU and block 52 pretty much more than cover for what J-10 has at the moment.
> 
> so I hail that decision to ditch J-10 consolidate focus and resources on JF-17 and future 5th generation platforms.
> 
> its a mirror image of what China did... it has frog leaped to J-10 from its F-7s and hence its understandable it doesnt need JF-17s for its airforce as it has its own J-11, J-16 and 2 other 5th generation aircraft's to cover for everything.
> 
> I understand J-17 and J-10 are not like for like comparison but I am looking at their role viz a viz the country they are operated by.
> 
> indirectly I dare say JF-17 has done more than expected.
> 
> comments?
> 
> ps. please open up a conversation with me thx


I don't know why it surprises people on the cancellation news, read my opening post in the four year old thread, even then Alan Warnes was of the opinion that if ever the J-10 is a long time in coming.

Alan Warnes Discloses


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## Informant

acetophenol said:


> The engines for HT-2 was sourced from UK,later license made in India. It was designed by V.M Ghatge. Some of the direct contributions of India in the MKI project includes the "Tarang" RWR and MFDs by HAL-SAMTEL. Apart from that 150+ Indian vendors supply components,from the Aeromuscle tyres to the license built engines. We have license built multiple 3rd generation combat jets,upgraded them ourselves to cutting edge status and have our own aircrafts as well. Now what exactly is Pakistan's contribution in Jf-17 project?



More than 50%. Designing phase was mostly our initiative. I know a few people on the original team who were in China ( team of 30+ engineers) and have a very good understanding of our contribution. And the SD-10 BVR was active a solid year before it was disclosed. Quite a lot of tidbits that we dont release for a reason. Makes it fun when you guys guess or put it down.

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## acetophenol

Informant said:


> More than 50%. Designing phase was mostly our initiative. I know a few people on the original team who were in China ( team of 30+ engineers) and have a very good understanding of our contribution. And the SD-10 BVR was active a solid year before it was disclosed. Quite a lot of tidbits that we dont release for a reason. Makes it fun when you guys guess or put it down.


Same case here,the design of MKI was also an Indian intiative,and now we make almost thd entire aircraft in India,including the engines. I just wanted to make things clear,peace.

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## Irfan Baloch

he-man said:


> *j-10b is just at another level vs jf-17*,,,,and thats the brutal truth.
> 
> but i can understand pakistan wanting a 5 gen fighter and not j-10,,,,but* comparing jf-17 with j-10b is pure madness*



I must commend you for stealth trolling.
you must be patting your back right now cheeky

but I welcome it nonetheless

as far as the first bit of your bolded sentence is concerned .. I would call it a point of view which I dont think is far off although some Chinese might take take offense that their pride which is a bigger class than J-17 is being put in the same scale but your saving grace is the key word "another level" .. so I commend you for soft troll comment done with style 

as far as the second part is concerned.. the trolling is not as classy as the first one on two counts


I have already used the word "future versions" in my opening paragraph of my post.
the word "pure madness" is an over killed expression specially when my opening sentence actually qualifies my statement. you know it well that I am not comparing J-10B with current J&-17 blocks but what they were become in future.
@Informant please stop being baited into responding to off topic posts before @Aeronaut starts deleting them.

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## Munir

he-man said:


> but comparing jf-17 with j-10b is pure madness



Not if you say JF17 block 3...


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## he-man

Munir said:


> Not if you say JF17 block 3...


ya,,,even then



Irfan Baloch said:


> I must commend you for stealth trolling.
> you must be patting your back right now cheeky
> 
> but I welcome it nonetheless
> 
> as far as the first bit of your bolded sentence is concerned .. I would call it a point of view which I dont think is far off although some Chinese might take take offense that their pride which is a bigger class than J-17 is being put in the same scale but your saving grace is the key word "another level" .. so I commend you for soft troll comment done with style
> 
> as far as the second part is concerned.. the trolling is not as classy as the first one on two counts
> 
> 
> I have already used the word "future versions" in my opening paragraph of my post.
> the word "pure madness" is an over killed expression specially when my opening sentence actually qualifies my statement. you know it well that I am not comparing J-10B with current J&-17 blocks but what they were become in future.
> @Informant please stop being baited into responding to off topic posts before @Aeronaut starts deleting them.



i can rebut u point by point vs j-10b but i will just refrain in hurting ur feelings.
a point defence fighter will not suddenly become a multirole fighter with upgrades.


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## Munir

he-man said:


> ya,,,even then
> 
> 
> 
> i can rebut u point by point vs j-10b but i will just refrain in hurting ur feelings.
> a point defence fighter will not suddenly become a multirole fighter with upgrades.



You mean Bison or LCAS... You are right on that.

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## Irfan Baloch

he-man said:


> i can rebut u point by point vs j-10b but i will just refrain in hurting ur feelings.
> a point defence fighter will not suddenly become a multirole fighter with *upgrades*.




dont worry about the feeling.
your alternate point of view is always welcome.
point defense is just one aspect. both planes are multirole

I agree with you last point. I am not referring to some game menu where you customize your plane "suddenly"

again... the key phrase was future blocks... future is something in the coming time.. which is the opposite of sudden... with upgrade and modifications otherwise its the same thing. 


please continue



Munir said:


> Not if you say JF17 block 3...


problem is that our friend chose to ignore what I said in my original post he quoted.. I referred to future blocks

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## Informant

No J-10. Look towards 31. That is all im at liberty to mention

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## he-man

Irfan Baloch said:


> dont worry about the feeling.
> your alternate point of view is always welcome.
> point defense is just one aspect. both planes are multirole
> 
> I agree with you last point. I am not referring to some game menu where you customize your plane "suddenly"
> 
> again... the key phrase was future blocks... future is something in the coming time.. which is the opposite of sudden... with upgrade and modifications otherwise its the same thing.
> 
> 
> please continue



all right let me ask u some questions.

1)whats the radar used in block-2?
2)does block 2 has an irst??
3)is block 2 quadruple fly by wire??
4)does block 2 have canards?
5)does block 2 has rd-93 or al-31??
6)any chance of block 2 getting even a pesa??

when u answer all these questions seriously,,,u will know how huge is the difference between jf-17 and j-10B.

Analysis has to be objective so i expect u to counter accordingly,,,please don't bring awacs in this discussion


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## Munir

he-man said:


> all right let me ask u some questions.
> 
> 1)whats the radar used in block-2?
> 2)does block 2 has an irst??
> 3)is block 2 quadruple fly by wire??
> 4)does block 2 have canards?
> 5)does block 2 has rd-93 or al-31??
> 6)any chance of block 2 getting even a pesa??
> 
> when u answer all these questions seriously,,,u will know how huge is the difference between jf-17 and j-10B.
> 
> Analysis has to be objective so i expect u to counter accordingly,,,please don't bring awacs in this discussion



Who talked about block 2... I mentioned block 3...

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## RAMPAGE

random247 said:


> Better to join in as they can learn. Or Make a new one with Single engine and brings in Egypt, Libya, Alegria, Tunisia and Morrocco to invest and learn.


WC Nishan. 

Goodbye Nishan. 

@Aeronaut @Jungibaaz @Manticore


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## he-man

Munir said:


> Who talked about block 2... I mentioned block 3...


dude we are realistic people.

first talk about block -2,,,,when time for 3 comes we will discuss


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## VelocuR

Mav3rick said:


> Well.....where exactly is the so called MMRCA that we have all been hearing about for the past 10 years?? We shall talk about J-10B/C when India actually inducts the Rafale!! The J-10X series was always going to be a response to Rafale......and well, no Rafale means no J-10X's!!
> 
> Besides, it is not like Pakistan & China will have to go through the decades long process of procurement in case India does actually acquire Rafale. Actually, I am quite confident that PAF will get her hands on the J-10's before IAF gets her hands on Rafale.




Point taken, I am pretty sure that Rafale will induct within 2-3 years soon, the current negotiation is difficult and complicated between France and India that will end soon before process. What will PAF do then? Our officers will run to China tomorrow to knock the door to seek more fourth generation jets along with more loans approval or call Uncle Sam for old F-16 A/B planes immediately.

Why we can't make own independence or own thinking instead monitor heavily on India's new acquisition? I am much disappointed and have no full confident in JF-17 Block II/III taking on Su-30MKIs or Rafale except only praise joint cooperation between China/Pakistan and latest air shows.


Please everyone say goodbye to *J-10B awesome Beast*..........


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## asad71

Aeronaut said:


> @Zarvan l We are looking at between 150-250 Thunders in III blocks plus more F-16s.
> 
> @asad71 - As far as i know, the Air Force is extremely pleased by Thunders so far.



I know someone who flies JF-17.He used to fly F-16s earlier. He is quite enthusiastic about JF-17. It would make sense if PAF continued to develop own aircraft.

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## Munir

The whole team of test pilots were previous senior f16 pilots. So in essence there is lots of input from f16 side into the JF17 project.

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## Irfan Baloch

he-man said:


> all right let me ask u some questions.
> 
> 1)whats the radar used in block-2?
> 2)does block 2 has an irst??
> 3)is block 2 quadruple fly by wire??
> 4)does block 2 have canards?
> 5)does block 2 has rd-93 or al-31??
> 6)any chance of block 2 getting even a pesa??
> 
> when u answer all these questions seriously,,,u will know how huge is the difference between jf-17 and j-10B.
> 
> Analysis has to be objective so i expect u to counter accordingly,,,please don't bring awacs in this discussion


meri Jaan..seems like you are not reading my posts with full attention

all your questions are misplaced and irrelevant..and a little amusing sorry.
we are not comparing current JF-17 blocks with J10B.

had you noticed the word future blocks then you wont have asked that but it seems no matter how many times I say that you will keep playing the same record.
I will let @Munir or @Windjammer @Informant to make it obvious for you

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## ziaulislam

RAMPAGE said:


> WC Nishan.
> 
> Goodbye Nishan.
> 
> @Aeronaut @Jungibaaz @Manticore


i think nishan should be allowed with original user name. even if it funny reading his new posts

real question is will this cancellation lead to increase no. of thunders from 150 to 250 or not?
if not than PAF will be in serious trouble facing full 40 squardons of IAF.
i think if the purpose was to pour more money into thunder than it was a good decision.
but thunder needs some gadgets like IRST and AESA.
it will be interesting whether ws-13 joins thunder or not and how much thrust will it add to thunder.
i wounder why PAF didnt explored rd-93Ma or its upgradation with the russsians


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## he-man

Irfan Baloch said:


> meri Jaan..seems like you are not reading my posts with full attention
> 
> all your questions are misplaced and irrelevant..and a little amusing sorry.
> we are not comparing current JF-17 blocks with J10B.
> 
> had you noticed the word future blocks then you wont have asked that but it seems no matter how many times I say that you will keep playing the same record.
> I will let @Munir or @Windjammer to make it obvious for you



then u are speculating and world dosen't move on speculation


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## PolarAir

j31 is better, but takes more time. 
j10b is available right after the engine problem solved. 
j31 needs extra tail part modifications for TVC, and j20 too.


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## HAIDER

China is all good but fail to produce good engine. That's the reason predicted long time ago , Pakistan won't be able to get J10, because Russia is not compromising its most latest engine for Pakistan-China J10 pact. Plus India will never accept the delivery of such a top of the line Russian engine to Pakistan . Now Pakistan has to jump from JF17 to directly 5th generation .But engine is still a big question mark for Pakistani production line.


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## Kompromat

PolarAir said:


> j31 is better, but takes more time.
> j10b is available right after the engine problem solved.
> j31 needs extra tail part modifications for TVC, and j20 too.



Its clear that the J-10B doesn't offer us any added capability to what we already have with JF-17s and F-16 fleet. Pakistan doesn't have a large defense budget, therefore it makes sense that we take a decade long nap, save up cash and go for a fifth generation aircraft to add a new capability to our air force. It could be the J-31, some other Chinese project, F-35s or other jets on the market.

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## Sasquatch

PolarAir said:


> j31 is better, but takes more time.
> j10b is available right after the engine problem solved.
> j31 needs extra tail part modifications for TVC, and j20 too.



Some misconceptions there no such thing as the J-31 or J-21 it's project 310. Your incorrect on the J-10B, first batches will be using AL-31 after that WS-10, the WS-10 is also reaching full maturity. 
You will be seeing the 310 project flying with the WS-13 engines soon and there is the rumored WS-17 which is said to have 2D TVC.

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> Its clear that the J-10B doesn't offer us any added capability to what we already have with JF-17s and F-16 fleet. Pakistan doesn't have a large defense budget, therefore it makes sense that we take a decade long nap, save up cash and go for a fifth generation aircraft to add a new capability to our air force. It could be the J-31, some other Chinese project, F-35s or other jets on the market.



Our 5th Gen procurement in future could be similar to F-16 procurements time to time small batches spread over years PAF can have a solid number, the door for F-35s are closed but we would still be blessed with a number of F-16s at low cost against fulcrums, jaguars, lca, -5s that would strongly balance everything in our favor. PAF would still invest in F-16 purchases along with modernization to Thunders.

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## Zarvan

Luftwaffe said:


> Our 5th Gen procurement in future could be similar to F-16 procurements time to time small batches spread over years PAF can have a solid number, the door for F-35s are closed but we would still be blessed with a number of F-16s at low cost against fulcrums, jaguars, lca, -5s that would strongly balance everything in our favor. PAF would still invest in F-16 purchases along with modernization to Thunders.


Sir if we are not going for J-10B than we need to increase production of JF-17 and also get F-16 and tell USA if they are not ready to sell us F-16 than they should not cry if the future war with India turns out to be really disastrous for the whole world


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## Didact

Zarvan said:


> Sir if we are not going for J-10B than we need to increase production of JF-17 and also get F-16 and tell USA if they are not ready to sell us F-16 than they should not cry if the future war with India turns out to be really disastrous for the whole world



So in essence you are putting the gun on your head and threatening that unless I get more bullets, I'm gonna shoot myself clean. Pretty neat trick to get something....

Do tell us if it does succeed. We do have the bigger guns. Should get us quite a bit more.

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## acetophenol

ziaulislam said:


> i think nishan should be allowed with original user name. even if it funny reading his new posts
> 
> real question is will this cancellation lead to increase no. of thunders from 150 to 250 or not?
> if not than PAF will be in serious trouble facing full 40 squardons of IAF.
> i think if the purpose was to pour more money into thunder than it was a good decision.
> but thunder needs some gadgets like IRST and AESA.
> it will be interesting whether ws-13 joins thunder or not and how much thrust will it add to thunder.
> i wounder why PAF didnt explored rd-93Ma or its upgradation with the russsians


You definitly won't have to worry about facing 40 squadrons of IAF,as we are facing crunching numbers ourselves. But yeah,there is numerical superiority.


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## volatile

J-10 at the moment not seing in PAF colour but do see extra ordinary condition will lead to extra ordinary decision/procurements.I think J-10 is pretty much on the table its like maturing/available any time .Consider 1965 F-6 China coming all of sudden to support Sabres .So Chillax all J-10 fans ,improtant thing is it will be available to us when we need this .In the mean time develop two platforms F-16/JF-17 .It might be goo idea to procure as many F-16 as we can from any 3rd country do our own upgrades like (Rose) and J17 wow what an adventurous platform we got all plug and play (even engine/ammunition/Radars) you name it so much there to work on.Only needed technolgy visionarie (F-16 Sufa) Israel is an example.


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## Chak Bamu

he-man said:


> dude we are realistic people.
> 
> first talk about block -2,,,,when time for 3 comes we will discuss



You were talking about Rafale and PAKFA just a couple of pages back. Now you have suddenly become a realist?

People who know about upcoming developments are not at liberty to disclose them. You challenges would go unanswered. You would receive a response when PAF actually inducts upgraded assets, and even then their full capability would not be disclosed. That is the way it should be. It eventually all comes down to trusting institutions for making the right decisions and safeguarding national security and interests. Getting and inducting Jordanian F-16s is a case in example.

If you were smart enough to read between the lines, there is plenty of information here. But I think you are here to troll, so nitpicking is all that you would do.

I must say, I expected better of you.

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## Zarvan

Chak Bamu said:


> You were talking about Rafale and PAKFA just a couple of pages back. Now you have suddenly become a realist?
> 
> People who know about upcoming developments are not at liberty to disclose them. You challenges would go unanswered. You would receive a response when PAF actually inducts upgraded assets, and even then their full capability would not be disclosed. That is the way it should be. It eventually all comes down to trusting institutions for making the right decisions and safeguarding national security and interests. Getting and inducting Jordanian F-16s is a case in example.
> 
> If you were smart enough to read between the lines, there is plenty of information here. But I think you are here to troll, so nitpicking is all that you would do.
> 
> I must say, I expected better of you.


When are we expected to see first BLOCK II Jet officially ?


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## Chak Bamu

Zarvan said:


> When are we expected to see first BLOCK II Jet officially ?



Probably two months. Senior members can confirm if they wish. No point speculating here for now. Wrong thread.

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## VelocuR

Zarvan said:


> When are we expected to see first BLOCK II Jet officially ?



Already coming out. JF-17 with refueling probe, no big changes. Let's see September this year if any huge modifications otherwise we will be more disappointed.

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## Zarvan

RaptorRX707 said:


> Already coming out. JF-17 with refueling pod, no big changes. Let's see September this year if any huge modifications otherwise we will be more disappointed.


Mr this is not BLOCK II it was BLOCK I fitted with this to test this


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## VelocuR

Zarvan said:


> Mr this is not BLOCK II it was BLOCK I fitted with this to test this



see under "Production Schedule", read carefully whole paragraph. It will be rolled out with Block 2 with some configurations.


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## Munir

Majority (if not all) Indian posters have no idea what they say. They start asking you facts but if you ask them facts in return it is all blabla. The depth is comparable with the average Bollywood movie. They are in PakFa... What are they doing exactly when they not even make LCA? Not even a prop plane like Mushaq? To be honest, they even cannot assemble planes. No foreign customer trust them in doing that. We should not let us restrict by these posters. If you visit their websites then you get a very good knowledge of their arrogance and nationalistic approach. No wonder no non India wants to post there...

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## Donatello

Munir said:


> Majority (if not all) Indian posters have no idea what they say. They start asking you facts but if you ask them facts in return it is all blabla. The depth is comparable with the average Bollywood movie. They are in PakFa... What are they doing exactly when they not even make LCA? Not even a prop plane like Mushaq? To be honest, they even cannot assemble planes. No foreign customer trust them in doing that. We should not let us restrict by these posters. If you visit their websites then you get a very good knowledge of their arrogance and nationalistic approach. No wonder no non India wants to post there...




According to the idiotic Indian poster, they have earmarked $300 million for the design phase of PAKFA, one should ask him/her how much they spent on designing the LCA on paper and then again on some more paper for 30 years. I really enjoy how they make fool of themselves, broadcasting to the rest of the world.

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## Munir

he-man said:


> do u understand that we have already paid 300 million$ for design phase of pakfa??
> and do u understand that we have selected rafale with a contract to be signed shortly...confirmed by both sides??
> 
> but all i see on the pakistani side is between the lines bullshit.
> 
> i countered on jf-17 and j-10b differences but none,,,least of all u,gave a clear answer.
> 
> 
> 
> its people like u who are trolls and comparing j-10b with jf-17 and showing ur supreme stupidity time and again.



You indeed pay... Big time. You do not get any TOT. You do not contribute. PAKFA is even worser for you then MKI. There is even little non Russian part. Zero.

About Rafale. Did you see the payment for each Mirage2000H upgrade? That is almost an Rafale... Good job! And do you know why it stalled? You expect the French to be responsible for your assembly... Haha... No one would do that. You had issues with Mig21 assembly... Surely not bad spare parts! You had issues with Jauguar assembly... Every plane was different and IAF would not accept it. Hell, even the latest Jaguar upgrade is a big issue for your companies... Same for Hawk trainer deal... MKI deal is an headache when it comes to tires, engines, displays etc etc I mean, serious. You guys are even worser then any African nation.

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## Chak Bamu

he-man said:


> do u understand that we have already paid 300 million$ for design phase of pakfa??
> and do u understand that we have selected rafale with a contract* to be signed shortly*...confirmed by both sides??
> 
> but all i see on the pakistani side is between the lines bullshit.
> 
> i countered on jf-17 and j-10b differences but none,,,least of all u,gave a clear answer.
> 
> 
> 
> its people like u who are trolls and comparing j-10b with jf-17 and showing ur supreme stupidity time and again.



1. We know what Indian has done about PAKFA and Rafale. You do not need to educate anyone here. But we shall see when any of these actually pans out. Until then hold your horses and refrain from using double standards. If we can not spell out for you what and when will happen to JF-17 and future 5th generation induction, you can not say anything with confidence either. PAKFA & Rafale are no where near being inducted as of now. Whatever you say about their being in IAF is pure speculation.

If you do not see the double standards of your posts and you still persist in your stupid posts, you will be penalized. This is fair warning.

2. There is a lot of shared development between JF-17 and J-10 (DSI, Avionics, MMI, etc..). One has to be blind not to see that. I have seen you list, and frankly it is childish to say the least. Avionics systems overlap as far as Chinese products are concerned. For all we know, ECM systems of JF-17 could be superior. JF-17 is not a delta, and thus has no need for canards. It does, however have conspicuous LERX that help in achieving high angle of attack. But expecting you to see that seems like folly. In the end, it turns out that for two J-10s, PAF could induct three JF-17s, not to mention the cost, effort, and headache of inducting a brand new combat system for only a little benefit.

3. No one can conclusively rule out J-10 for PAF. For all we know, PAF could have been training personnel to use this bird in case of emergency. Indians can never be certain about it being or not being a future part of PAF. AESA, IRST are important improvements, and if JF-17 blk III does not have them, then we might get a couple of squadrons of J-10 as and when needed. But no one can be certain.

Airforce induction plans do not take into account whims and wishes of fanboys and trolls. You response to this post would conclusively determine for me if you are a troll or a serious poster.

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## Informant

he-man said:


> do u understand that we have already paid 300 million$ for design phase of pakfa??
> and do u understand that we have selected rafale with a contract to be signed shortly...confirmed by both sides??
> 
> but all i see on the pakistani side is between the lines bullshit.
> 
> i countered on jf-17 and j-10b differences but none,,,least of all u,gave a clear answer.
> 
> 
> 
> its people like u who are trolls and comparing j-10b with jf-17 and showing ur supreme stupidity time and again.



Hhahah $300m makes your work? The plane is Russian they just lack on funds, not technology. I did not for ONCE compre them, you put 2 and 2 together. You supported a claim no one made. So you get called out, so you throw a tantrum when everyone sees through your bullshit. So you cry and try to change the topic convo. But you are not that clever she-man. You get NEGGED. For good reason. 

J-10b offers nothing that F-16 cannot counter, so why go for it.

Toodaloo she man.

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## Donatello

Please, this is PAF specific thread. 

Mods,
@Oscar @Manticore 

Can we keep the thread clean of Indian posters, as you can clearly see they have brought the usual non-sense in here. If they cannot comment on PAF and J-10 in specifics, why are they allowed to keep posting?

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## Munir

acetophenol said:


> You have said 'India can't make aircrafts' in earlier posts and I have countered it by giving you the names of aircrafts made in India. Now you are repeating the same! Then what should I say? Y



You assemble for awful lot money foreign parts and with often big issues with end results and the IAF. Now the assembling is not even accepted by foreign parties like Dassault. You can call it India is making fighter jets I call it less then call center activity.

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## Chak Bamu

he-man said:


> i will keep on writing till i get a response ,,,especially for the last negative rating.
> u can keep giving more


No need to give more, unless your language deteriorates to that level again.



acetophenol said:


> Without doubt trollings are started by single trolls,aren't think tanks supposed to be responsible enough not to quote the troll posts at the first place,that to with baseless comments?



TTAs and TTCs are humans too buddy. How does one tackle a troll? Just look at how I proceeded. @he-man can not really complain about neg ratings. He was answered adequately, he refused to accept the answers, used bad language and got penalized for his language and stubborn trolling. He is still at it.

Nationalism sometimes makes animals out of sane and intelligent people.

@Munir, yaar let us let it go. I do not like giving neg ratings, and I've done quite a bit already.

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## he-man

i started with post no 203 here

all right let me ask u some questions.

1)whats the radar used in block-2?
2)does block 2 has an irst??
3)is block 2 quadruple fly by wire??
4)does block 2 have canards?
5)does block 2 has rd-93 or al-31??
6)any chance of block 2 getting even a pesa??

when u answer all these questions seriously,,,u will know how huge is the difference between jf-17 and j-10B.

Analysis has to be objective so i expect u to counter accordingly,,,please don't bring awacs in this discussion







whats trolling in this??

not one person answered me and all started calling me stupid,she-man.ignorant........whatever!!



Chak Bamu said:


> No need to give more, unless your language deteriorates to that level again.
> 
> 
> 
> TTAs and TTCs are humans too buddy. How does one tackle a troll? Just look at how I proceeded. @he-man can not really complain about neg ratings. He was answered adequately, he refused to accept the answers, used bad language and got penalized for his language and stubborn trolling. He is still at it.
> 
> Nationalism sometimes makes animals out of sane and intelligent people.


i have never used bad language against anyone here,,,see any post of mine

i just used word stupidity as i was called she-man,stupid etc by pakistani posters.

u should be ashamed of urself being a think tank giving negative ratings for 0 reason whatsoever


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## Munir

he-man said:


> i started with post no 203 here
> 
> all right let me ask u some questions.
> 
> 1)whats the radar used in block-2?
> 2)does block 2 has an irst??
> 3)is block 2 quadruple fly by wire??
> 4)does block 2 have canards?
> 5)does block 2 has rd-93 or al-31??
> 6)any chance of block 2 getting even a pesa??
> 
> when u answer all these questions seriously,,,u will know how huge is the difference between jf-17 and j-10B.
> 
> Analysis has to be objective so i expect u to counter accordingly,,,please don't bring awacs in this discussion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whats trolling in this??
> 
> not one person answered me and all started calling me stupid,she-man.ignorant........whatever!!



Does your LCA have canards? Does PAkfa have canards? Does F22 have canards? You are obsessed with Makhi canards.

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## Informant

he-man said:


> no one answered post 203,,none
> 
> and anyone with any knowledge can see it was far from being a troll post
> 
> 
> no they don't.
> point of comparison was j-10 and jf-17 genius
> 
> 
> 
> don't lie in front of everyone here,,,u gave 2 negative ratings without any reason,none whatsoever.
> and i was asking relevant info
> 
> 
> 
> wow awesome.........one more for doing nothing but protesting a negative rating!!
> 
> @WebMaster
> @nuclearpak
> 
> please



Everything was answered you just need to open your eyes and be attentive. Everything you qutes has been answered in the JF-17 and in this thread.


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## Munir

So we need to show you pics of JF17 and J10 and tell you which has canards... Interesting. Ok, but what does that add to anything at all? I mean, it is like does LCA has one or two engines? Every idiot can google a picture and reply. So you are even less then that? He man you are trolling. don't try to hide behind a bad post... Haha...

Let us call it a day. Enough low level posts and ratings. I just add Heman to my personal ignore list.

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## Chak Bamu

he-man said:


> no one answered post 203,,none
> 
> and anyone with any knowledge can see it was far from being a troll post



Nobody can tell you much about your list. While it was pointed out to you that much of this list would be out-of-bounds for security reasons, you refused to accept it and instead started using abusive language. Block II is not out yet. We can not tell you much about it. The people here who know pretty well the evolution of JF-17 would NOT post the insider information. Even if they do, likes of you refuse to accept it. So there is no point talking about it here and persisting in trolling. I know you feel wronged because @Informant used colorful language. But then he brings something to discussions here, while you only spread idiocy persistently.

Just look at your idiotic comment about canards. Why WOULD JF-17 have canards when it does not need them. Do you recall my post in which I made a slight rebuke about this point? Now look at Munir's post when he makes fun of your idiocy. You still do not get it. Whose fault is it?



> no they don't.
> point of comparison was j-10 and jf-17 genius



See, you are very very stubborn. You are answering someone who is a Dutch Aeronautical Engineer, and has more than a decade's experience in dealing with Indian trolls. You can not hope to answer him or win any argument against him. If you still do not see your folly. I give up on engaging with you. I had thought that you were intelligent and fun loving person, but I guess I did not know how bad of a troll you are.


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## Informant

Chak Bamu said:


> Nobody can tell you much about your list. While it was pointed out to you that much of this list would be out-of-bounds for security reasons, you refused to accept it and instead started using abusive language. Block II is not out yet. We can not tell you much about it. The people here who know pretty well the evolution of JF-17 would NOT post the insider information. Even if they do, likes of you refuse to accept it. So there is no point talking about it here and persisting in trolling. I know you feel wronged because @Informant used colorful language. But then he brings something to discussions here, while you only spread idiocy persistently.
> 
> Just look at your idiotic comment about canards. Why WOULD JF-17 have canards when it does not need them. Do you recall my post in which I made a slight rebuke about this point? Now look at Munir's post when he makes fun of your idiocy. You still do not get it. Whose fault is it?
> 
> 
> 
> See, you are very very stubborn. You are answering someone who is a Dutch Aeronautical Engineer, and has more than a decade's experience in dealing with Indian trolls. You can not hope to answer him or win any argument against him. If you still do not see your folly. I give up on engaging with you. I had thought that you were intelligent and fun loving person, but I guess I did not know how bad of a troll you are.




Not cool an 

I got feelings too you know.

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## PolarAir

Hu Songshan said:


> Some misconceptions there no such thing as the J-31 or J-21 it's project 310. Your incorrect on the J-10B, first batches will be using AL-31 after that WS-10, the WS-10 is also reaching full maturity.
> You will be seeing the 310 project flying with the WS-13 engines soon and there is the rumored WS-17 which is said to have 2D TVC.


Noop.
In the very beginning, J10 was planned to have WP-15 engine, then changed to WS-10 later. But due to the delay of WS-10 development and the introduction of Su-27s, J10 got AL-31F. PLAAF still wants domestic engines , but gets unconfident in WS-10 project, so WS-10A project was brought out, which is based on AL-31F. WS-10A completely has no relationship with WS-10. Both J10 series and J11/15/16 series will use WS-10A, not WS-10.
As for J31, the current engines are RD-93, which will be replaced by WS-13. WS-13 is planned to equip JF17 and FBC-1. But WS-13 is not an advanced engine, it's enough for 4th gen jets, but not enough for 5th gen ones like J31. I don't know the rumors about WS-17, but there is indeed one project on the advanced medium-thrust engines. But the progress is far behind WS-15, which is planned to equip J20.

PLAAF currently doesn't have urgent needs for TVC on J20, since it's major misson is to intercept enemy incoming stealth fighters with ground radar support. But if PAF decides to buy J31, TVC is very important. J31 is a multi-role fighter. Unlike J20, J31 will be used to strike ground targets. In that situation, infrared stealth is the key. Even in air combat, J31 has less maneuverability than J20. TVC together with tail part mod is a good help in both situations. Anyway, the chance that J31 in PAF with it's tail facing enemy fighters/SAMs is much larger than J20 in PLAAF.

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## acetophenol

Munir said:


> You assemble for awful lot money foreign parts and with often big issues with end results and the IAF. Now the assembling is not even accepted by foreign parties like Dassault. You can call it India is making fighter jets I call it less then call center activity.



The more you make this kind of post,more will we go on having this hungama. We design and make our own aircrafts in India,as well as we license build aircrafts in India.

































@WebMaster: please specify the reason for negative rating.

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## GURU DUTT

whats going on here dear friends 

pakistanies knew it much before that J10 B was never coming cause JF 17 Blk 3 will be same if not better in all capabillities as projected by J10B 

i dont get it what is making pakisatni and indians friends fighting on such a trivial issue


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## Windjammer

he-man said:


> i am not,,,that dosen't stop me from pointing out the wrong being done here


The only thing wrong here is your digressing from the topic, asking silly and unreasonable questions.
Now here's a picture of JF-17 with canards, happy, why don't you go and play with that and let others address the topic.
There's a good lad.

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## FNFAL

Windjammer said:


> Poor man's vipers . eh.... do you keep referring to JFT as such since it's destined to shoot down some poorly trained pilots or is it that by demeaning others, gets your ticker going. In any case some internet warriors frivolous comments are obsolete however those pitted against the JFT do matter and thus hold regards. Basically you have no knowledge about how PAF operates or it's capabilities...here's a hint, in the middle of 2002 stand off, PAF inducted a squadron of F-7PGs, if it just wanted an aircraft to shoot guns or sidewinders, it could have stuck with the 7P version which it already was quite familiar with. work on that.


Do you always talk without context?
When i say JFT is a poor mans viper I lay exact emphasis on two points- cost and effectiveness- This aircraft is a cheap palen that promises quite a lot. Just like Lexus's are often touted as poor mans mercs. Are lexus's bad? NO. Get the drift before you fish tail .
Lolz on teh F-7s...Its role is just like IAFs MIg21--an interceptor, more like a point interceptor.And just like the mig 21, it has restrictions on size of radar to payload.
The JF17 is slated to replace all your F7s and Mirages as just like the costler F16, it promises to do justice to both A2A and A2G roles.


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## IND151

RaptorRX707 said:


> Already coming out. JF-17 with refueling probe, no big changes. Let's see September this year if any huge modifications otherwise we will be more disappointed.



Jf 17 needs more powerful engine having thrust of 10,000 KG or more along with sophisticated avionics package.

The percentage of composites need to be increased too.


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## araz

Walla! Someone has just done a magical disappearing act. Our friend and his posts are no more. Guys lets move on and lets all be logical and civil please.
Araz


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## Windjammer

FNFAL said:


> Do you always talk without context?
> When i say JFT is a poor mans viper I lay exact emphasis on two points- cost and effectiveness- This aircraft is a cheap palen that promises quite a lot. Just like Lexus's are often touted as poor mans mercs. Are lexus's bad? NO. Get the drift before you fish tail .


 Yea just like you had to use the term Sabre slayer instead of the designation....get the drift before you rift.


> Lolz on teh F-7s...Its role is just like IAFs MIg21--an interceptor, more like a point interceptor.And just like the mig 21, it has restrictions on size of radar to payload.
> The JF17 is slated to replace all your F7s and Mirages as just like the costler F16, it promises to do justice to both A2A and A2G roles.


 Lolz on your comprehension abilities too, i specifically used the term 7PG.... anyways the topic doesn't relate to MiG-21 or F-7 and enough bandwidth has been wasted by your country fellows.


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## araz

IND151 said:


> Jf 17 needs more powerful engine having thrust of 10,000 KG or more along with sophisticated avionics package.
> 
> The percentage of composites need to be increased too.


OK. Fair enough but when you have a fast obseleting fleet and need rapid replacement and enhanced capabilities what do you do. None of our platforms are now upgradable and need to be replaced. finances are restricted and there are procurement restraints. Under those circumstances the best solutio is replacement first and upgrade as technology becomes available and also affordable. This is the dilemma facing PAF and the answer in light of what I have said isexactly what PAF is doing.
Araz

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## Informant

he-man said:


> oh i am still here
> 
> does block 2 contains upgrades to fly by wire??



Nopes.


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## he-man

Informant said:


> Nopes.


whats the status for klj-7??
has the range increased?if yes what.

any alternative to rd-93?

any increase in composites in the airframe?



Windjammer said:


> I thought you were leaving us with a heavy heart. I guess just more tantrums from you.
> 
> out of here.............pakistani members are abusing the negative rating



stay on topic


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## IND151

Munir said:


> You assemble for awful lot money foreign parts and with often big issues with end results and the IAF[. Now the assembling is not even accepted by foreign parties like Dassault. You can call it India is making fighter jets I call it less then call center activity.






> *Marut was designed by the well-known German aircraft designer Kurt Tank* and* Indian engineers from Hindustan Aircraft Limited (now HAL Bangalore)*. A total of 147 aircraft were built, including 18 two-seat trainers.



HAL HF-24 Marut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





kurt tank | 1964 | 1991 | Flight Archive



Apart form that LCH, Rudra, Saras and Tejas are too developed by India.


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## FNFAL

Windjammer said:


> Yea just like you had to use the term Sabre slayer instead of the designation....get the drift before you rift.
> Lolz on you comprehension abilities too, i specifically used the term 7PG.... anyways the topic doesn't relate to MiG-21 or F-7 and enough bandwidth has been wasted by your country fellow



I can choose whatever name i may please. Just as you may call the F117 as the hopeless diamond or the flying cockroach.
Go ahead and call your F16s the MKI lock-oners if it pleases ur ego
On the F7PG, its an upgraded version of a cheap chinese clone of mig21.PG is way more advanced than P.And its common sense to upgrade your defence capabilities of available inventory, Nothing earth shattering here.You need to get new a new perspective. 
Anyhow it would be more than wise to get back at the topic- JF17s will be your primary work horse for the next few decades while F16s continue their role of premier Air Sup aircraft until your AF can muster funds to invest in some mature 5th gen aircrafts-most viable being some chinese jet.


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## Informant

he-man said:


> whats the status for klj-7??
> has the range increased?if yes what.
> 
> any alternative to rd-93?
> 
> any increase in composites in the airframe?
> 
> 
> 
> stay on topic



Yes range has been increased. Confidential info, so undisclosed as of now. 

Composites are the same, minimal. Yes Chinese engine, dont know the serial number.


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## he-man

Informant said:


> Yes range has been increased. Confidential info, so undisclosed as of now.
> 
> Composites are the same, minimal. Yes Chinese engine, dont know the serial number.



ws-10 i think,,,but its not ready contrary to chinese claims.
let me help u with radar btw


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## Informant

he-man said:


> ws-10 i think,,,but its not ready contrary to chinese claims.
> let me help u with radar btw



WS-10 will be ready in 2 years, 3 at best. They are undergoing testing, keep in mind an engine testing requires 7-10 years. 

Our upgraded radar has a bigger, much larger range for 5 square meters.


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## Windjammer

FNFAL said:


> I can choose whatever name i may please. Just as you may call the F117 as the hopeless diamond or the flying cockroach.
> Go ahead and call your F16s the MKI lock-oners if it pleases ur ego
> On the F7PG, its an upgraded version of a cheap chinese clone of mig21.PG is way more advanced than P.And its common sense to upgrade your defence capabilities of available inventory, Nothing earth shattering here.You need to get new a new perspective.
> Anyhow it would be more than wise to get back at the topic- JF17s will be your primary work horse for the next few decades while F16s continue their role of premier Air Sup aircraft until your AF can muster funds to invest in some mature 5th gen aircrafts-most viable being some chinese jet.


Then be a man and stand your ground and admit to using the poor man's viper in a demeaning nature....i have also come across such terminologies as ''Pig in the MiG'' but thankfully i don't possess such bankrupt mindset.
And just what capabilities the PG incorporates is indeed beyond your imagination, for that is one type that is not going to be replaced by anything any time soon.

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## AUSTERLITZ

nana41 said:


> I think it is Brahminogarrance which sees Pakistan as *Dalit*.



Another totally irrelevant and useless post.



Informant said:


> WS-10 will be ready in 2 years, 3 at best. They are undergoing testing, keep in mind an engine testing requires 7-10 years.
> 
> Our upgraded radar has a bigger, much larger range for 5 square meters.



Finally ur actually answering his questions,instead of plain flaming him.Everyone can give a different or disputed POV,doesn't mean he is lynched.Thats why its forum not propaganda center.

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## he-man

Informant said:


> WS-10 will be ready in 2 years, 3 at best. They are undergoing testing, keep in mind an engine testing requires 7-10 years.
> 
> Our upgraded radar has a bigger, much larger range for 5 square meters.



i doubt it,,,when klj-7 was introduced it had only 75 km range.
and zhuk-me of mig-29 k is much larger than klj-7 with just 120 km range.

even apg-66 v9 has a range of 110-120 km based on estimates,,,so looking at size of klj-7 this looks fair to me.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> Another totally irrelevant and useless post.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally ur actually answering his questions,instead of plain flaming him.Everyone can give a different or disputed POV,doesn't mean he is lynched.Thats why its forum not propaganda center.


as it turns out i have info to share here

on topic

zhuk-me is much heavier and larger with just 120 km range on look up aspect and 110 for look down aspect.






anyone with specs on actual antenna size,gain and peak power of klj-7??


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## FNFAL

Windjammer said:


> Then be a man and stand your ground and admit to using the poor man's viper in a demeaning nature....i have also come across such terminologies as ''Pig in the MiG'' but thankfully i don't possess such bankrupt mindset


Amusing to say the least. Do not put your words in my mouth.Your interpretation of my posts does not hold true for me.
Other than the fact that you need to man up, lay equal importance on being mature.

As I said before you can do all the name calling in the world to get your precious sleep tonight.I guess that coinage is an invention in the last 15 mins of some intensive brainstorming-Bravo!

Anyhow, when you have matured , can we return to the topic?


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## Informant

AUSTERLITZ said:


> What bullshit?Disputing something is ?Did he insult ur family,ethnicity,country,religion?
> And i'm quite satisfied with mu current pair thank you.Ur mouth is similar to that of a bitching woman..so it would seem that ur the real 'she-man' here.



If you bothered to read the thread from beginning you'd understand. 3 different members having the same issue has a reason. You can ignore his bullshit i dont give a rat's ***. 2 TTs and I had issues with his actual nonsense he would not listen to. Well i cant help him. 

I didnt create thread crying about a NEG. Shit's internet man, real life is outside. I asked you to grow one because saying bugger off is an insult now apparently. Need to move in big boy circles stat.

And he was only given a NEG when he started being anal about answers. Some that cannot be given, Some questions that do not make sense at all, and some that were answered.



he-man said:


> i have tried to explain logically with proper source for my info,,,u are giving a speculative answer



Your source is brouchure. My info is direct. I cannot force you to believe me nor can i give up the info i have along with the source. So it's a matter of believing words over the internet. 

upto you to decide.

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## Chak Bamu

Will someone please lock this thread for a day?


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## he-man

Informant said:


> If you bothered to read the thread from beginning you'd understand. 3 different members having the same issue has a reason. You can ignore his bullshit i dont give a rat's ***. 2 TTs and I had issues with his actual nonsense he would not listen to. Well i cant help him.
> 
> I didnt create thread crying about a NEG. Shit's internet man, real life is outside. I asked you to grow one because saying bugger off is an insult now apparently. Need to move in big boy circles stat.
> 
> And he was only given a NEG when he started being anal about answers. Some that cannot be given, Some questions that do not make sense at all, and some that were answered.
> 
> 
> 
> Your source is brouchure. My info is direct. I cannot force you to believe me nor can i give up the info i have along with the source. So it's a matter of believing words over the internet.
> 
> upto you to decide.


but u have exactly 0 info on whats the new range,,,which kind of makes me highly suspicious of ur claims



Chak Bamu said:


> Will someone please lock this thread for a day?



please don't post offtopic here mr think tank,be constructive here


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## Informant

he-man said:


> but u have exactly 0 info on whats the new range,,,which kind of makes me highly suspicious of ur claims
> 
> 
> 
> please don't post offtopic here mr think tank,be constructive here



You will NOT get the new range. NEVER. Get this through your skull. This is confidential info.


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## he-man

Informant said:


> You will NOT get the new range. NEVER. Get this through your skull. This is confidential info.


give approximate range at least!!

is it more than zhuk-me or apg-66v9?


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## AUSTERLITZ

Informant said:


> If you bothered to read the thread from beginning you'd understand. 3 different members having the same issue has a reason. You can ignore his bullshit i dont give a rat's ***. 2 TTs and I had issues with his actual nonsense he would not listen to. Well i cant help him.
> 
> I didnt create thread crying about a NEG. Shit's internet man, real life is outside. I asked you to grow one because saying bugger off is an insult now apparently. Need to move in big boy circles stat.
> 
> And he was only given a NEG when he started being anal about answers. Some that cannot be given, Some questions that do not make sense at all, and some that were answered.
> 
> 
> 
> Your source is brouchure. My info is direct. I cannot force you to believe me nor can i give up the info i have along with the source. So it's a matter of believing words over the internet.
> 
> upto you to decide.



Ok he was having a discussion and a different point of view,all of you have the right to say he is wrong and present yours.He wasn't really off-topic since j-10 was involved.He didn't insult anyone's family,ethnicity,religion,country.Then all of a sudden u made that post with big flame.He had not called anyone any names ,after that post he used the word stupidity..and fucking(used not against any person but in context)donatello called him idiotic ,and u had already done a number.After that came a barrage of negative ratings..which is curious.You can disagree with him,call him a troll or point him to the information pool thread.Instead u flamed him and gave him multiple negative ratings.He had't really broken any serious rules.I'm fine u guys disagree with him,but overall treatment was amateur and shabby and total abuse of rating system.

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## janon

@he-man : I suggest you stay away from the thread. Clearly, you can see that they don't like your presence here. Now that may be their own fault and not yours, but it is also their rules, and their people who enforce the rules.

What is the point in going on asking questions here, when nobody wants to answer you? Just find out whatever specs you want from whatever open source info there is. You can't get any confidential info from here, and whatever open source info they can give you, you could probably find out on your own.

It may or may not be your fault, but all Pakistanis posting here have made it amply clear that they don't want to answer you.

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## Manticore

Closed for cleaning. Rating system should not be abused if a pov collides with yours. Reporting the post also helps.

Certain posts with ratings have been kept for webby to check out.

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## Irfan Baloch

Informant said:


> Everything was answered you just need to open your eyes and be attentive. Everything you qutes has been answered in the JF-17 and in this thread.



for example refer to my post
No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead. | Page 14

but he has thick skin which is blocking oxygen to his brain as well 

he has pretty much taken over the discussion so he must be patting his back.


by the way.. he considers canards as something of a novelty feature for making an aeroplane cool and all other planes that dont have it are shite. he brought this up when he decided to compare J-10B with our current JF-17s.


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## Informant

Irfan Baloch said:


> for example refer to my post
> No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead. | Page 14
> 
> but he has thick skin which is blocking oxygen to his brain as well
> 
> he has pretty much taken over the discussion so he must be patting his back.
> 
> 
> by the way.. he considers canards as something of a novelty feature for making an aeroplane cool and all other planes that dont have it are shite. he brought this up when he decided to compare J-10B with our current JF-17s.



I answered him, he wants sources. I cant, so im doing bak bak his internet sourced brochures must be right.

Please lets just leave it be, some people will just be a dogs tail.


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## he-man

Irfan Baloch said:


> for example refer to my post
> No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead. | Page 14
> 
> but he has thick skin which is blocking oxygen to his brain as well
> 
> he has pretty much taken over the discussion so he must be patting his back.
> 
> 
> by the way.. he considers canards as something of a novelty feature for making an aeroplane cool and all other planes that dont have it are shite. he brought this up when he decided to compare J-10B with our current JF-17s.



really??
tell me more about it,i mentioned canards in one of my posts.............one,when i told u on difference between j-10b and jf-17.
so its better u don't spread lies here.

yup i decided to compare it with jf-17 because guess what,,,that was the topic at hand genius.


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## farhan_9909

Actually KLJ-7 range even in the block 1 was later upgraded to 130km(Courtesy PAC official Javed)

Later the Klj-7v2 is a further upgrade though range is sure to be more than 130km for 5m2

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## Irfan Baloch

Informant said:


> I answered him, he wants sources. I cant, so im doing bak bak his internet sourced brochures must be right.
> 
> Please lets just leave it be, some people will just be a dogs tail.


thats not the point
he is smart enough to know what you are saying. he is just over trolling.

he was waiting for his chance and he pounced.

the OP news about AC Khaild is talking about future PAF plans. ... in the same light I mentioned our F-16s and future JF-17 blocks that will comfortably cover anything that J-10 family could offer so I understood the frog leap to next generation.

that was this cue... and rest is history


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## Informant

Irfan Baloch said:


> thats not the point
> he is smart enough to know what you are saying. he is just over trolling.
> 
> he was waiting for his chance and he pounced.
> 
> the OP news about AC Khaild is talking about future PAF plans. ... in the same light I mentioned our F-16s and future JF-17 blocks that will comfortably cover anything that J-10 family could offer so I understood the frog leap to next generation.
> 
> that was this cue... and rest is history



Rest assured crying is their MO. Let them.

Aur on topic. I think ACM is hinting we gon be jumping straight to 5th gen. I hope.

Because that seems logical and would save our purse enough to spend on those expensive bad boys.

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## nana41

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Another totally irrelevant and useless
> Go to **232


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## aliyusuf

PAC started JFT Block-I production / assembly from ~ January 2008.
Till date we have produced 50 planes.
So roughly it took us around 6 years to reach that number.
For whatever reasons, hurdles and circumstances.
My emphasis is not about what they are ... but more about what their impact has been and are going to be.
There are no encouraging indicators that these same factors won't be there in the coming years.
They might not be as restrictive as they have been or as they are now ... but they are not going to go away completely.

Hence realistically at what time frame are we expecting the remaining tranches of 50 planes each for Block-II and Block-III to be completed? Keeping in mind of the factors that kept us to only 50 planes in the previous 6 years?

Shouldn't this actually figure in to the planning of what our quantitative and qualitative strength is going to be viz-a-viz the IAF?

Say between ...
1) 2016 to 2018?
2) 2018 to 2020?
3) 2020 to 2022?

Can someone share their opinion about what these might be?


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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> thats not the point
> he is smart enough to know what you are saying. he is just over trolling.
> 
> he was waiting for his chance and he pounced.
> 
> the OP news about AC Khaild is talking about future PAF plans. ... in the same light I mentioned our F-16s and future JF-17 blocks that will comfortably cover anything that J-10 family could offer so I understood the frog leap to next generation.
> 
> that was this cue... and rest is history


@Irfan Baloch, just ignore him which isn't difficult. a lot could be said and disclosed here but @Munir will confirm that this forum is read by some very keen eyes. In any case i would ask you not to waste your valuable knowledge in dealing with some one on a suicide watch.

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## Chak Bamu

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Ok he was having a discussion and a different point of view,all of you have the right to say he is wrong and present yours.He wasn't really off-topic since j-10 was involved.He didn't insult anyone's family,ethnicity,religion,country.Then all of a sudden u made that post with big flame.He had not called anyone any names ,after that post he used the word stupidity..and fucking(used not against any person but in context)donatello called him idiotic ,and u had already done a number.After that came a barrage of negative ratings..which is curious.You can disagree with him,call him a troll or point him to the information pool thread.Instead u flamed him and gave him multiple negative ratings.He had't really broken any serious rules.I'm fine u guys disagree with him,but overall treatment was amateur and shabby and total abuse of rating system.



My friend I have a great deal of respect for you because of your quality posts. And I know that you are a serious poster. Forget for a moment that you are from India and that I am from Pakistan. Now read his posts and you would see that he was being very stubborn. Irfan Sahib, Munir, I addressed his posts and tried to explain the relevant points. But the quality of his posts kept going down. I agree that quality of language was an issue from other posters too, but none was being as stubborn as him. He has a history of such behavior, as evident from negative ratings already on record, and the rating that I gave him took into account this background. It was not as though he was not fore-warned. He brought this upon himself. Munir has been very hard on him, yes. But even if most of the ratings are overturned by Webby (as should be done), some would still stick because he deserved them. Disagreement is welcome, but stubbornness coupled with lack of understanding and bad language????

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## ziaulislam

he-man said:


> really??
> tell me more about it,i mentioned canards in one of my posts.............one,when i told u on difference between j-10b and jf-17.
> so its better u don't spread lies here.
> 
> yup i decided to compare it with jf-17 because guess what,,,that was the topic at hand genius.


*if you want specific info, the place to be is JF-17 info thread. as on web you will get all types of info but they are not upto date. everything from radar range, to ws-13 status and fly by wire up-gradation, range, load, fuel etc is posted there. you wil only get the answer if its not there and not classified.*
PAF(similar to PLAAF) isnt transparent is information access as IAF is, in fact i think no air force is that transparent.
no one denies that indians are ahead in most fields, the one who sucks is the HAL as its govt entity, even the IAF chief knows that. the assembling problems is well known, the french speaking of HAL in ability to assemble is all over the news.

after designing a few basic planes, assembling half of dozens of advance plans, india shouldnot have had any problems with LCA. IAF is reluctant to put in service (they will now because of govt pressure) as it either not the quality or more likely doesnot has the specs IAF wants.
canards comes with delta plans, its useless to discuss it with double delta or tailed delta plans, what canards did was removed some of the disadvantages of delta design.* if you still want to know more go to thread on designs its here somewhere
lastly, if you really want a nice place to Bragg about than the best place is Bharat-Rakshak.com where pakistan has already disintegrated and PAF only has a few f-16s. they think jf-17 is school bus*

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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> @Irfan Baloch, just ignore him which isn't difficult. a lot could be said and disclosed here but @Munir will confirm that this forum is read by some very keen eyes. In any case i would ask you not to waste your valuable knowledge in dealing with some one on a suicide watch.


yes open forums are not a place to give away any need to know information just by being fooled by trolls and flammers.
but what we do here is share public knowledge and theorize and analyse like all jobsworth analysts do.

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## aliyusuf

aliyusuf said:


> PAC started JFT Block-I production / assembly from ~ January 2008.
> Till date we have produced 50 planes.
> So roughly it took us around 6 years to reach that number.
> For whatever reasons, hurdles and circumstances.
> My emphasis is not about what they are ... but more about what their impact has been and are going to be.
> There are no encouraging indicators that these same factors won't be there in the coming years.
> They might not be as restrictive as they have been or as they are now ... but they are not going to go away completely.
> 
> Hence realistically at what time frame are we expecting the remaining tranches of 50 planes each for Block-II and Block-III to be completed? Keeping in mind of the factors that kept us to only 50 planes in the previous 6 years?
> 
> Shouldn't this actually figure in to the planning of what our quantitative and qualitative strength is going to be viz-a-viz the IAF?
> 
> Say between ...
> 1) 2016 to 2018?
> 2) 2018 to 2020?
> 3) 2020 to 2022?
> 
> Can someone share their opinion about what these might be?



Lest my humble query be over looked in all the ruckus that has been going on, I am re-posting my query and am hoping for helpful and informed opinions from all who can provide it.

Thanks.


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## Munir

Windjammer said:


> @Irfan Baloch, just ignore him which isn't difficult. a lot could be said and disclosed here but @Munir will confirm that this forum is read by some very keen eyes. In any case i would ask you not to waste your valuable knowledge in dealing with some one on a suicide watch.



Affirmative.

I think we do not have to forget that JF17 has the fastest time from drawing board to first flight and then to production. And it survived 5 years Zardari. So in that respect we should expect to speed up in the next two years. Add to that the Indians played dirty game by forcing the French not to deliver latest avionics (thank God the Rafale deal went terrible and the paid double for Mirage 2000 H upgrade). So in essence we should re-calculate time forthe first 50.

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## Informant

Munir said:


> Affirmative.
> 
> I think we do not have to forget that JF17 has the fastest time from drawing board to first flight and then to production. And it survived 5 years Zardari. So in that respect we should expect to speed up in the next two years. Add to that the Indians played dirty game by forcing the French not to deliver latest avionics (thank God the Rafale deal went terrible and the paid double for Mirage 2000 H upgrade). So in essence we should re-calculate time forthe first 50.



The Indians payed ALOT to upgrade their M2000's!


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## Munir

To read between the lines... They paid for not delivering 50 avionic sets for JF17. But do not forget that we had already finalized the set. Testing etc. So the backstabbing by the French was unexpected hence 1-1.5 years delay in block 2. With the financial constraints already there it was not that bad to delay production rate and put some real effort in fully indigenous and real good block 2-3. And then we needed a lot more hours in adding western weapons (look at what LCA flies with) and improving the wing structure. Adding refueling probe etc etc. So Pakistan did achieve a lot more then most people know.



NKVD said:


> They are on Fire today @he-man Even I got a rating today on 2 day old post


Another Indian posters with thousand posts and thousand thanks... You really expect me to believe that you are all that good? The first thing you do is start giving each other points. Shall we look at that?

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## Informant

he-man said:


> u have lost any moral right to question anybody today.
> 
> 
> 
> 40 million per bird without even engine change..................fucking scam



2 upgrades would net you a Rafale. Scam man, your politicians are the boss.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Chak Bamu said:


> My friend I have a great deal of respect for you because of your quality posts. And I know that you are a serious poster. Forget for a moment that you are from India and that I am from Pakistan. Now read his posts and you would see that he was being very stubborn. Irfan Sahib, Munir, I addressed his posts and tried to explain the relevant points. But the quality of his posts kept going down. I agree that quality of language was an issue from other posters too, but none was being as stubborn as him. He has a history of such behavior, as evident from negative ratings already on record, and the rating that I gave him took into account this background. It was not as though he was not fore-warned. He brought this upon himself. Munir has been very hard on him, yes. But even if most of the ratings are overturned by Webby (as should be done), some would still stick because he deserved them. Disagreement is welcome, but stubbornness coupled with lack of understanding and bad language????



I understand to a point what ur saying.I read the topic again.

''do u understand that we have already paid 300 million$ for design phase of pakfa??
and do u understand that we have selected rafale with a contract to be signed shortly...confirmed by both sides??
but all i see on the pakistani side is between the lines bullshit.
i countered on jf-17 and j-10b differences but none,,,least of all u,gave a clear answer.its people like u who are trolls and comparing j-10b with jf-17 and showing ur supreme stupidity time and again.''

Yes this above post perhaps was trolling and could have gotten negative rating,but the others he got were not deserved.Because he didn't use abusive language in them nor did he insult anyone's race,religion,ethnicity,family which are serious violations.And he didn't exactly go off topic either.On the quality of language that didn't start with him as u saw.He-man is naturally stubborn,headstrong and deviant member.He has posted several threads in Indian defence forum blasting rafale,mirage upgrade and several other defects in IAF which didn't particularly endear him to people-and he even got accused of being false flagger,but he just doesn't make a blanket statement and leave-he usually tries to prove his point(Succesfully or unsuccessfully).He does irritate people,but i think 10 negative ratings is overreaction to someone who irritates title holders but hasn't broken any major rules,he could have been called a troll,lacking understanding of opposing POV or simply given link to jf-17 info pool or ignored.Except for above post that would probably have been enough.People like auz,batman often go into indian threads to make sudden blanket statement which irritate lots of indian members..they don't get 10 negative ratings.
Good thing is mods seem to have taken notice and both this post and informant's one have been removed.So with that i think we are thankfully nearing the end of this episode.That's all i had to say.

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## Informant

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I disagree that a mig-29k is useless and its crying...Well.Thank you.



Mig 29 are a fatigue-prone plane. Not doubting it's capabilities but they are repair intensive and their downtime/turnaround time is very high along with the costs associated with it.

This is factual. I do not get your point.

Edit: If you meant Indian Migs after upgrades, then yes they're formidable but still maintanance prone/heavy/intensive.



he-man said:


> u don't know the stuff that goes into a mig-29 k
> its all foreign
> 
> israeli rwr's ,ukranian jammers and a radar thats better than both klj-7 and apg-66v9 allegedly while also having an irst(albeit not a very good one)



No doubt after upgrades you have turned the plane into a formidable craft, but the RCS is still huge that works to our benefit fortunately

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## he-man

Informant said:


> Mig 29 are a fatigue-prone plane. Not doubting it's capabilities but they are repair intensive and their downtime/turnaround time is very high along with the costs associated with it.
> 
> This is factual. I do not get your point.


the point is its ecm suite is better than anything u have,,as simple as that and on top of that its a proven dogfighter.


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## Informant

he-man said:


> the point is its ecm suite is better than anything u have,,as simple as that and on top of that its a proven dogfighter.



ECM better than Block 52's? Doubt it.

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## he-man

Informant said:


> Mig 29 are a fatigue-prone plane. Not doubting it's capabilities but they are repair intensive and their downtime/turnaround time is very high along with the costs associated with it.
> 
> This is factual. I do not get your point.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt after upgrades you have turned the plane into a formidable craft, but the RCS is still huge that works to our benefit fortunately



ucannot take advantage of that rcs with small radars like klj-7 and apg-66v9...............u need better radars,,,till that time mig-29 wil be filled with zhuk-ae aesa



Informant said:


> ECM better than Block 52's? Doubt it.



then post whats there in block 52,,,the problem with usa planes is we don't have any info on whats inside??!!
i cannot find one single source on apg-66v9,,,,,not one!


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## Kloitra

Informant said:


> No doubt after upgrades you have turned the plane into a formidable craft, but the RCS is still huge that works to our benefit fortunately



That depends on ECM suite. Even if you can see but can't get a lock on it, its useless.

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## Informant

he-man said:


> ucannot take advantage of that rcs with small radars like klj-7 and apg-66v9...............u need better radars,,,till that time mig-29 wil be filled with zhuk-ae aesa



Yes but having huge RCS is at disadvantage, smaller radars love huge RCS bro. Easier for the small ones to detect as compared to something like Rafael. Long time till you guys have 5th gen assets plus Rafael. We got time as well. Qualitatively we will be a match, but not quantitatively. Same is the case with you and China just as ours is with yours.

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## Manticore

Mig 29k has low radar cross-section


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## Kloitra

Informant said:


> ECM better than Block 52's? Doubt it.


Possible, with more engine power.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Informant said:


> Mig 29 are a fatigue-prone plane. Not doubting it's capabilities but they are repair intensive and their downtime/turnaround time is very high along with the costs associated with it.
> 
> This is factual. I do not get your point.



How does that make them useless?Yes it makes them more difficult to maintain than say f-16,but do u mean to say that IAF's premier air defence fighter on the border is mostly bluff because it spends its time in maintainence.Thats a rather arrogant assumption.Especially on brand new upgrade or built fighters.On the cost issue,its half that of a mki.Also we are upgrading existing mig-29s for IAF and it was dirt cheap compared to mirage upgrade.On mig-29k -we don't have another option to use in vikramaditya,mig-29k is best naval fighter russia has.So take these facts into consideration as well plz.


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## Informant

he-man said:


> ucannot take advantage of that rcs with small radars like klj-7 and apg-66v9...............u need better radars,,,till that time mig-29 wil be filled with zhuk-ae aesa
> 
> 
> 
> then post whats there in block 52,,,the problem with usa planes is we don't have any info on whats inside??!!
> i cannot find one single source on apg-66v9,,,,,not one!



That is how US and most others work. India is very transparent ( not completely but relatively). This works in our favor. And so do we, we do not disclose after some time. Policies really and Block 52 ECM is something for Indians to be vary off. The people i speak to sing praises about it's abilities.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> How does that make them useless?Yes it makes them more difficult to maintain than say f-16,but do u mean to say that IAF's premier air defence fighter on the border is mostly bluff because it spends its time in maintainence.Thats a rather arrogant assumption.Especially on brand new upgrade or built fighters.On the cost issue,its half that of a mki.Also we are upgrading existing mig-29s for IAF and it was dirt cheap compared to mirage upgrade.On mig-29k -we don't have another option to use in vikramaditya,mig-29k is best naval fighter russia has.So take these facts into consideration as well plz.



I edited the post, i thought you referred to plain M-29s. Not the upgraded version. So no need to gun for me.



Kloitra said:


> Possible, with more engine power.



New ones are enough to sustain for as long as required

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## AUSTERLITZ

I doubt ECM will be better than f-16,.this i must admit.Unless we had israeli stuff in it.If we used the elta jammer or advnaced version of it i would have been more comfortable.


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## he-man

its not as bad now after upgrades,,,but truth can never be found out as we have no idea whats there in block 52



AUSTERLITZ said:


> I doubt ECM will be better than f-16,.this i must admit.Unless we had israeli stuff in it.If we used the elta jammer or advnaced version of it i would have been more comfortable.



Shown below is the OMUT internally-mounted EW jammer from Ukraine’s Radionix Ltd for the IN’s MiG-29Ks and MiG-29KUBs, plus the ELTA Systems-built EL/L-8222 jammer configured for escort jamming purposes. 












so yeah it contains both israeli and ukranian jammers

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## EagleEyes

Dont derail threads or you will be thread banned/neg rated...possibly banned.

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## Kloitra

Informant said:


> New ones are enough to sustain for as long as required



Its not the problem of sustaining. From what I know, the net power delivered by twin engines of Mig is more than that of F16, for similar weight class. How much of that power is transferred for ECM is anyone's guess but a logical assumption would be that it is higher for Mig.


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## Informant

Kloitra said:


> Its not the problem of sustaining. From what I know, the net power delivered by twin engines of Mig is more than that of F16, for similar weight class. How much of that power is transferred for ECM is anyone's guess but a logical assumption would be that it is higher for Mig.



Of Course that is not debated here, but the workability/efficiency of American systems is on spec and sufficient. Israel uses its own electronic countermeasures on is F-16. The US does not disclose its technology to them so therefore India getting info/inside knowledge is extremely slim. 

Then again Blok 52 system are designed from the get go with a single engine in mind. ECCM, ECM, SNIPER and AIM-120 is what counter's India's frontline Air Superiority asset in MKI. 

I guess this is off topic so maybe lets continue this in some other thread.

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## Storm Force

Without J10B pakistanis will be relying on a small FLEET OF F16 to keep IAF at Bay.

I say small because a max of 76 F16 versis 200 SU30MKI today is a tall order no matter how good the F16 ecm or radar or the BVR missle happens to be.

You jjust cant be in three places at the same time.

Whislt i realise the thunder is arriving for me that is not going to be the cutting edge of your air power.

Any indian commander will REALISE breaK THE F16 fleet and you could win the Air Supremacy battle.

J10B would have been A GREAT ADDITION to your fleet and a real FORCE MULTIPLER without threat of USA sanctions.

Deep down i am certain some PDF posters will be thinking the same.

Despite all the junk the IAF fly TODAY they still field

200 MKI
48 MIG29K Navy
50 Mirage 2000-5 ( being upgraded)

These 300 planes will go toe toe against the formidable F16 OF PAF

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## nana41

he-man said:


> really??
> tell me more about it,i mentioned canards in one of my posts.............one,when i told u on difference between j-10b and jf-17.
> so its better u don't spread lies here.
> 
> yup i decided to compare it with jf-17 because guess what,,,that was the topic at hand genius.


Oey sardara! Tun ki thaan thaan audey lai phirna pian ean, ajey persoon meray nal sing arrana pia sain...teri sooi taan naheen attak gai yara?.

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## Informant

Storm Force said:


> Without J10B pakistanis will be relying on a small FLEET OF F16 to keep IAF at Bay.
> 
> I say small because a max of 76 F16 versis 200 SU30MKI today is a tall order no matter how good the F16 ecm or radar or the BVR missle happens to be.
> 
> You jjust cant be in three places at the same time.
> 
> Whislt i realise the thunder is arriving for me that is not going to be the cutting edge of your air power.
> 
> Any indian commander will REALISE breaK THE F16 fleet and you could win the Air Supremacy battle.
> 
> J10B would have been A GREAT ADDITION to your fleet and a real FORCE MULTIPLER without threat of USA sanctions.
> 
> Deep down i am certain some PDF posters will be thinking the same.
> 
> Despite all the junk the IAF fly TODAY they still field
> 
> 200 MKI
> 48 MIG29K Navy
> 50 Mirage 2000-5 ( being upgraded)
> 
> These 300 planes will go toe toe against the formidable F16 OF PAF



PAF cannot counter IAF with quantity, it's all about quality. And our F-16's which are going through a process of MLU will be formidable with upgraded avionics, engines and Electronic Warfare modules which are the top of the line.

India cannot possibly field all those planes for us, they have to station a very dominant number of planes at the Chinese border. You guys cannot keep all your forces on us and give an open invite to China. This way we know your strength nearly halves with us. Rest assured there has always been a plan in place for every scenario/situation that can happen to us.

Nobody denies the planes you got in the arsenal are top dog, but you just cannot field them all for us, China keeps you busy.

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## patriotpakistan

No point wasting money on a plane similar to what the PAF already has. PAF should be looking forward to get the next generation of equipment. Stealth is the future of military aviation and PAF needs to catch up with the rest of the major airforces. Remember when Quaid said: "The PAF must be second to none". This means developing systems capable of detecting stealth planes as well as developing the latest stealth aircraft. I personally favour the J-31 for PAF. It looks like a well designed airframe compared to the ugly and bulky looking J-20. If only the J-31 had exhaust shields like the F-22 for a much lower RCS.

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## trident2010

Bad decision in my opinion. 50-60 J10B's would give PAF some breathing time until something better arrives. No 5th gen plane in atleast 10 years for PAF and J10B's would be excellent stop gap.


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## monitor

trident2010 said:


> Bad decision in my opinion. 50-60 J10B's would give PAF some breathing time until something better arrives. No 5th gen plane in atleast 10 years for PAF and J10B's would be excellent stop gap.



Pakistan is focusing on future rather then current threat scenario in fifth generation environment it may be wast of money to pour money to a 4.5+ platform which will give at best 20/30 % extra benefit which they may fill by indicting tested and trusted F-16 both old and new . the money need to procure J-10 expendin would give JF-17 the necessary upgrade to counter IAF threat in their home ground for next 10 year after that from 2020 if Pakistan can induct enough number of J-31, jf-17 block II/III along with 100+ F-16 PAF would be challenging force reckon with .

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## NKVD

monitor said:


> Pakistan is focusing on future rather then current threat scenario in fifth generation environment it may be wast of money to pour money to a 4.5+ platform which will give at best 20/30 % extra benefit which they may fill by indicting tested and trusted F-16 both old and new . the money need to procure J-10 expendin would give JF-17 the necessary upgrade to counter IAF threat in their home ground for next 10 year after that from 2020 if Pakistan can induct enough number of J-31, jf-17 block II/III along with 100+ F-16 PAF would be challenging force reckon with .


Your idea is good mate but still its very arguable to just depending on just F-16 for multiple roles which are in limited numbers unless PAF is relying on defensive policy Rather than Offensive strike policy.F-16 alone have to face 3 different fighters in future in the same Role which are Mki,mk2, rafale's although it will be difficult with such low number to hold so my opinion there is a requirement of J-10b in same role of F-16.

Ps:take out 5th Gen out of it


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## aliyusuf

J-10B or J-10C whichever was supposed to be the candidate for the FC-20, is not ready with Chinese engine ... as per PAF's liking. It seems that there are some issue about supplying these planes with the Al-31 engine to Pakistan, the lines may have been drawn on the RD93 case. 

Also it seems PAF is currently cash strapped and is totally involved with the induction and production of the JFT.
It is my opinion that the PAF is in a triage mode and doing its best to handle the current situation it finds itself in.
Acquiring the ex-RJAF F-16 ADFs is also an excellent example of how the PAF is resourcefully handling the situation.

Otherwise even 36 FC-20s, for which the original MOU was signed in 2005, would have been quite adequate as a stop gap.
I personally would have liked to have seen these planes in PAF colors. But the circumstances being what they are and some well informed members stating that JFT-Block-III is going to be something that will be similar or better(??) ... time will tell.


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## hussain0216

You dont just buy an aircraft, you buy a whole set up that supports the aircraft

How many J10's would we have bought?
We would require extensive pilot training taking many years
A whole scale training of many personel to deal with the J10B
Infrastructure to support the J10B

It takes many years for air forces and its pilots to master a plane, come up with an effective training and flying doctrine

*The above is just a small sample of the issues involved when inducting a new plane, now why would we do all that just to induct another 4+ gen plane that would not give us an advantage over the F16 (except maybe it would be a chinese plane not subject to sanction)*


With the F16 we have everything already in place, from very experienced pilots to pit crews and infrastructure. We need to expand our F16 fleet to in an ideal world around 130 planes, Our relationship with the americans is improving and their will be thousands of second hand F16's on the market going very cheap. We can buy cheap and MLU if we need to, we have top line pilots with years of experience and some top line weaponery.

Then concentrate on improving the JF17 Block 3 into a worthy fighter, JF17 is a new fighter and look how many issues we are having inducting it, it takes time to train the pilots and mechanics and come up with a doctrine so the JF-17 wont be truly ready until maybe another 3 years. Once it is up and running with aesa, irst then it is good to go

Our next 5-10 years should be spent on ensuring the JF17 is as lethal as it can be and to inducting 150-250 planes, with the option of more this will be our work horse figher for many decades. Adding another 50 F16's to our inventory is vital

We will then have the time to plan and save money to induct a 5th gen fighter which will be bought in batches and gradually built up


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## hussain0216

Just one more thing in addition

How much does a J10B cost, we need at least 50 of them, then add on the cost of training, infrastructure and the years it would take to induct the plane.

That plus the induction of the JF17 would mean we could kiss a 5th gen plane good buy

We just paid (allegedly) 5 million per Jordanian F16, even with upgrades they are a bargin, if we can get more from the thousands of F16's out there at a cheap cost we already have everything in place to add them to our fleet and get going


However good the J10B is, its not logical for us to go for it unless circumstances change


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## acetophenol

Ramp up your economy,everything else will fall in place.


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## Munir

The Great One said:


> If the past is anything to go by, Pakistan generally gets most of the Chinese rejects(There may well be a few notable exceptions). Since China is probably going to field J-10B's as a frontline fighter, by the earlier mentioned 'rule' Pakistan shall obviously never get it. Same for J-20 and J-31.


I do not think you have the idea how pathetic your post is.

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## Informant

The Great One said:


> If the past is anything to go by, Pakistan generally gets most of the Chinese rejects(There may well be a few notable exceptions). Since China is probably going to field J-10B's as a frontline fighter, by the earlier mentioned 'rule' Pakistan shall obviously never get it. Same for J-20 and J-31.



Really?


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## VelocuR

acetophenol said:


> Ramp up your economy,everything else will fall in place.



*Didn't we discuss already this topic, why repeat?*



The Great One said:


> If the past is anything to go by, Pakistan generally gets most of the Chinese rejects(There may well be a few notable exceptions). Since China is probably going to field J-10B's as a frontline fighter, by the earlier mentioned 'rule' Pakistan shall obviously never get it. Same for J-20 and J-31.



*Yesterday's message*


WebMaster said:


> *Dont derail threads or you will be thread banned/neg rated...possibly banned. *



@WebMaster @Aeronaut @Oscar, see another* illiterate uneducated Indians* did same things to derail our good thread even with your warnings. It would be wise decision to block all Indians to any specific thread.

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## Sankpal

Congrats...................but only talk or deal gonna sign within 1-2 years?


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## Kompromat

Sankpal said:


> Congrats...................but only talk or deal gonna sign within 1-2 years?



There is no deal. We will keep buying F-16s and build 250 Thunders.


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## Last Samuri

To Aeronaut


> We will keep buying F-16s .


 
i am really surprised that the pakistanis including you are banging the f16 drum.

i think alot of you are forgetting the way the usa has treated pakistan since twin towers

this is a country that threatened to bomb you into stone age
put sanctions on you after 99
numerous times threaned to embargo spares
now provides india with cutting edge weapons
will certainly look to cutail any f16 use in a war for no reason other than to reduce tensions.

90% pf pdf posters recently wanted f16 ditched due to to the potential issues.

are you people 100% sure usa wont stab in you in the back during the next conflict.

its big risk


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## Munir

Ok, enough waking up call for bad posts. I heard a rumor. If truth then block 3 will come near F16 block UAE. It will have comparable radar (slightly smaller), IRST and the TFT screens will be upgraded. That means it will get somewhere in the same class as Gripen E. If truth (which is not that impossible) then we will have a decent fighter that is better workhorse then most airforces have at the moment (or the next 5 years).

The older two squadrons are now being upgraded. So in June/July/August we will hopefully see new pictures.

PAF is seriously looking at the Jordanians for some more Block15's. For the Jordanians old but for us the same plane we have and perfect to put through MLU.

J10B is not fully off the deck... It is related to Indian deal we all know. If Rafale then within certain time frame J10(P). If t>3 years then J31 order depending how PAKFA goes. The extra imput of a new plane that provides little more then block 3 is indeed questionable. However PAF did join the J10B team some years ago. Since J31 is touted as steatlh fighter for PAF it does indeed make sense. If however something happens in between we can get them a la J6 in the past. I do not think that it will happen (IMF).

I could not get exact info but this does fit in the strategy... Do not start wars over these words or exact data. I have no clue as usual.

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## Informant

Munir said:


> Ok, enough waking up call for bad posts. I heard a rumor. If truth then block 3 will come near F16 block UAE. It will have comparable radar (slightly smaller), IRST and the TFT screens will be upgraded. That means it will get somewhere in the same class as Gripen E. If truth (which is not that impossible) then we will have a decent fighter that is better workhorse then most airforces have at the moment (or the next 5 years).
> 
> The older two squadrons are now being upgraded. So in June/July/August we will hopefully see new pictures.



Hush my man. You gon' give a few members some panic attacks.


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## Kompromat

Last Samuri said:


> To Aeronaut
> 
> i am really surprised that the pakistanis including you are banging the f16 drum.
> 
> i think alot of you are forgetting the way the usa has treated pakistan since twin towers
> 
> this is a country that threatened to bomb you into stone age
> put sanctions on you after 99
> numerous times threaned to embargo spares
> now provides india with cutting edge weapons
> will certainly look to cutail any f16 use in a war for no reason other than to reduce tensions.
> 
> 90% pf pdf posters recently wanted f16 ditched due to to the potential issues.
> 
> are you people 100% sure usa wont stab in you in the back during the next conflict.
> 
> its big risk



It is a risk, though there is no other option when J-10B is not ready, our fleet is depleting quickly and Thunders can't replace every jet.


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## Pangu

Why does Pakistan wants another single engine fighter like the J-10? It's really not much diff. than the JF-17. I would rather go for a heavy twin engine bird like the Russia Flanker or US Eagle, multi-role it for long range BVR & gound strike capability. Link it up to your AWACs & you have a good operational range. Then you can hi-lo tag team with the JF-17 for a myriad of mission objectives. Just my 2 cts.


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## acetophenol




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## Munir

xudeen said:


> Why does Pakistan wants another single engine fighter like the J-10? It's really not much diff. than the JF-17. I would rather go for a heavy twin engine bird like the Russia Flanker or US Eagle, multi-role it for long range BVR & gound strike capability. Link it up to your AWACs & you have a good operational range. Then you can hi-lo tag team with the JF-17 for a myriad of mission objectives. Just my 2 cts.



I think it has to do with the strategic depth (not much) and the sectorial defense that is Pakistani airforce system. Besides that dual engines cost twice the engine hours, almost twice fuel, almost twice maintenance hours and costs etc etc. There are some nations that bought dual engines but had to put them in storage...

While in the past safety was issue it is no longer the reason. Single engines are safe.

And indeed with netcentric warfare and a lot smarter weapons who does need two pilots, huge weapon load or big radar?

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## Windjammer

@Munir, so this PS image may after all not be out of place, we'll just have to wait for some Moons to pass us by.

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## Zarvan

Windjammer said:


> @Munir, so this PS image may after all not be out of place, we'll just have to wait for some Moons to pass us by.


Is this JF-17 ? if yes it looks great


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## hussain0216

Zarvan said:


> Is this JF-17 ? if yes it looks great


 
Yes, thats it

Its getting better all the time, and to be perfectly honest Pakistan has been extremely lucky.

Building a fighter jet is a costly process with many pit falls and any major errors or problems could cost many billions to fix and even then you could end up with a poor plane.

Pakistan hit the jack pot with the JF17 because its turned out to be such a good plane so with the plans for Block 3 its given Pak alot of breathing space to plan

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## ziaulislam

Windjammer said:


> @Munir, so this PS image may after all not be out of place, we'll just have to wait for some Moons to pass us by.


adding two new hard point under air intake /fuselage may wor(i think, i am no expert) but would the F-16 style fuel tanks work with low thrust of rd-33/ws-13?


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## Storm Force

To Munir



> And indeed with netcentric warfare and a lot smarter weapons who does need two pilots, huge weapon load or big radar?


 
In Reply

Russia China India = flankers Mig29
USA ISRAEL Japan Saudi South kOREA =F15/F18
UK FRANCE & Germant Luftwaffe = Typhoon Rafale

They also happen to be the 10 Strongest Air forces in the world.

Twin Engines give you massive operational adbvantages

F22 PAK FA & J20 are all Twinengines


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## Kompromat

Windjammer said:


> @Munir, so this PS image may after all not be out of place, we'll just have to wait for some Moons to pass us by.




You cant be serious. This is Gripen NG level of upgrades.

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## Bilal.

Aeronaut said:


> You cant be serious. This is Gripen NG level of upgrades.



Considering current JF-17 is not far off from the gripen c/d then it's not impossible to imagine for block III to be close to Ng/E.

@Munir you made my day sir! Thank you.


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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> There is no deal. We will keep buying F-16s and build 250 Thunders.


Well if we can get 126 F-16 total and 250 JF-17 Thunder total than after improving economy if needed we can go for 36 to 54 J-10 C


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## Kompromat

@Munir . Sir i must mention that UAE paid 3 Billion for the development of Block-60. To build a JFT with similar capabilities in mind is going to blow our budget.


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## Informant

Storm Force said:


> To Munir
> 
> 
> 
> In Reply
> 
> Russia China India = flankers Mig29
> USA ISRAEL Japan Saudi South kOREA =F15/F18
> UK FRANCE & Germant Luftwaffe = Typhoon Rafale
> 
> They also happen to be the 10 Strongest Air forces in the world.
> 
> Twin Engines give you massive operational adbvantages
> 
> F22 PAK FA & J20 are all Twinengines



Indeed it gives a capability unmatched, but also look at the area they have to cover. Or their enemies are far away from their territories. Plus the capability of having bigger budgets give them the advantage of using twin engine fighters.



Aeronaut said:


> @Munir . Sir i must mention that UAE paid 3 Billion for the development of Block-60. To build a JFT with similar capabilities in mind is going to blow our budget.



It's going to Puncture PAF more or less.


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## Munir

aeronaut Shahib, If you buy a whole foreign team and make something from scratch... Yes, that is expensive. If it is known technology and even improved/simplified/stolen and build in a cheap labor nation... Would it cost the same?

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## Kompromat

Munir said:


> aeronaut Shahib, If you buy a whole foreign team and make something from scratch... Yes, that is expensive. If it is known technology and even improved/simplified/stolen and build in a cheap labor nation... Would it cost the same?



Your point is valid, though creating such a jet doesn't solely depend on the reduced labor costs. If we are to increase the composite materials usage to reduce the weight to have a higher TWR, it is going to push the costs up as those material by no means are cheap. Then you have IRST, Retractable IFR, AESA radar, Full FBEWCS or Fly by light, new increased thrust engine, new weapon systems and sensors with an upgraded package of avionics, HMS and holographic HUD.

All of the above are included in Gripen NG and they come at an increased cost. I am unwilling to buy the narrative of a Gripen NG like JFT without raising per unit cost. It is possible for us to do it only if our economy recovers and funds become available.

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## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


> Your point is valid, though creating such a jet doesn't solely depend on the reduced labor costs. If we are to increase the composite materials usage to reduce the weight to have a higher TWR, it is going to push the costs up as those material by no means are cheap. Then you have IRST, Retractable IFR, AESA radar, Full FBEWCS or Fly by light, new increased thrust engine, new weapon systems and sensors with an upgraded package of avionics, HMS and holographic HUD.
> 
> All of the above are included in Gripen NG and they come at an increased cost. I am unwilling to buy the narrative of a Gripen NG like JFT without raising per unit cost. It is possible for us to do it only if our economy recovers and funds become available.



Aeronaut, JF-17 is superior to the F-16s of the earlier days blk15. We managed to create an aircraft of better capability with less money. Did F-16 cost 15-20 million in 1970s80s figures? Probably not. So the next incremental step would be not that costly. JF-17 needs advanced avionics, probably IRST and AESA and also more hardpoints. Otherwise it is a very potent platform and with more f-16s incoming, it forms a good strike force.

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## Munir

Aeronaut said:


> Your point is valid, though creating such a jet doesn't solely depend on the reduced labor costs. If we are to increase the composite materials usage to reduce the weight to have a higher TWR, it is going to push the costs up as those material by no means are cheap. Then you have IRST, Retractable IFR, AESA radar, Full FBEWCS or Fly by light, new increased thrust engine, new weapon systems and sensors with an upgraded package of avionics, HMS and holographic HUD.
> 
> All of the above are included in Gripen NG and they come at an increased cost. I am unwilling to buy the narrative of a Gripen NG like JFT without raising per unit cost. It is possible for us to do it only if our economy recovers and funds become available.



I do not think I only meant labor costs... If you made AIM9X. I just get the info which parts are used. I make these same items without years of research... That is a lot cheaper.

Besides that, Donatello has it correct. The JF17 preserves kinetic energy better. It has a smaller rcs then F16 back then. It has MAWS while F16 had it much later. Wven the cockpit of JF17 is far more flatscreen then F16block52...

I do not mean it personally but you are blinded by marketing material that F16 is the best. Even Chuck YEager told that people are thinking that the tilted seat was build for better performance... Well it helps little but the reality is that it was tilted to reduce frontal area... If the pilots sits normal then it has huge frontal canopy and drag... Trust me. The JF17 might be simpler or cheaper... By no means it is inferior. I bet that a well trained JF17 pilot can cause enough headache for f16 pilot.

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> Your point is valid, though creating such a jet doesn't solely depend on the reduced labor costs. If we are to increase the composite materials usage to reduce the weight to have a higher TWR, it is going to push the costs up as those material by no means are cheap. Then you have IRST, Retractable IFR, AESA radar, Full FBEWCS or Fly by light, new increased thrust engine, new weapon systems and sensors with an upgraded package of avionics, HMS and holographic HUD.
> 
> All of the above are included in Gripen NG and they come at an increased cost. I am unwilling to buy the narrative of a Gripen NG like JFT without raising per unit cost. It is possible for us to do it only if our economy recovers and funds become available.



It is understandable costs will go up but PAF just can't be stuck in the same Generation forever. Technologies are evolving eventually Block III/IV will have to go somewhere if it wants to have successful sales or and survive/thrive in the Future otherwise it is going to be another F-20. You see already Block II costs have gone up so PAF itself contradicted that costs will be kept low. The original envision 17-19m has gone up to 24-25m as long as Block III/IV remains under 38m it is definitely an excellent price. B.A.E hawk costs 30m what more do we want A 4++ advance Gen under 40m.

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## Kompromat

@Luftwaffe

All of your points are reasonable. The bottom line remains our ecinomic recovery. Better GDP growth means larger budget, which means spare cash for such projects.

You know that i have been a long supporter of the JFT program. Its a blessing for our aviation industry. Given the economic recovery, we must keep upgrading them into more blocks than 3. 

We should create SMEs in our aviation industry to foster a research and development culture at a smaller and industrial level.

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> @Luftwaffe
> 
> All of your points are reasonable. The bottom line remains our ecinomic recovery. Better GDP growth means larger budget, which means spare cash for such projects.
> 
> You know that i have been a long supporter of the JFT program. Its a blessing for our aviation industry. Given the economic recovery, we must keep upgrading them into more blocks than 3.
> 
> We should create SMEs in our aviation industry to foster a research and development culture at a smaller and industrial level.



We cannot compete with Gloabl Air Forces, our focus is IAF lets be honest, their fulcrums, lca, mirages, jaguars are here to stay for the next 2 decades. We have on our hands a platform that we need to modernize and customize to give them run for the money and perform well and exceed the expectations. Finances is the problem but once 150 numbers is reached we need to get/add few numbers from time to time as needed requirements which i believe is attainable...

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## Donatello

It's the avionics that count more than ever. If i can see you, target you before you can see me, i am done with my job. In case WVR fight takes place, i should have good jamming and above all a good coordination with my fellow fighter planes. In IAF vs PAF scenario it will be literally 100 or more fighters in the sky in a short area. A pilot will need to know where his partners are and where his enemies are. The technology that both IAF and PAF posses has never been tested in a full battle scenario anywhere in the world. 
When was the last time we saw so many fighters equipped with BVR weapons going head to head? Iraq-US gulf war was a joke. In terms of electronic technology, Vietnam air wars are an obsolete concept. So there is not much to draw from in real scenario. Plus in the case of IAF vs PAF we can't really draw parallels from the past of 1965 or 1971. Those were antique World War 2 fighting strategies. You bomb targets by flying over them. You dogfight, the better pilot and machine wins. That's not gonna happen anymore. Missiles on both sides are deadly. And so are stand off weapons. No need to fly F-16s over Indian bases. You drop JDAMs and other glide bombs and go back home. So it is getting extremely complex. And then we have the fighter to fighter communication links, better radars and above all AEWACs. The scenario has totally changed. IAF had a BIG advantage with it's BVR, but still it never fielded them in a war. Now PAF has massively closed the gap with AIM120 an SD10s. IF AIM9Xs come to PAF, the whole scenario changes again.

My only reservations with JF-17 are the fact that since it needs at least 2 drop tanks for a typical strike mission, it leaves 5 hardpoints of any use. If one is used up by a pod, then only four are left for Air to Air. These hardpoints should be at least 9 or 10. 2 WVRs, 4 BVRs gives JF-17 a tremendous strike capability, while allowing the remaining hardpoints to be used for 1000lb bombs, pods etc.

Another thing perhaps PAF can do is develop dedicated JF-17 EW versions, like the F-18 Growlers. So maybe out of 20 or so in a squadron, 4 can be dedicated EW platforms. It's quite possible since the engineering of this plane is entirely in our hands. The only limiting factor is our imagination, foresight and of course, funds.



Luftwaffe said:


> We cannot compete with Gloabl Air Forces, our focus is IAF lets be honest, their fulcrums, lca, mirages, jaguars are here to stay for the next 2 decades. We have on our hands a platform that we need to modernize and customize to give them run for the money and perform well and exceed the expectations. Finances is the problem but once 150 numbers is reached we need to get/add few numbers from time to time as needed requirements which i believe is attainable...



Well, at least under this government i see some improvement in finances coming. Economy has stabilized somewhat.

@Oscar , would you like to add anything?

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## VelocuR

Haq's Musings: World Bank: Pakistan Ranks Among World's 25 Largest Economies

Our economy is improving a bit, we should not have any problems to purchase J-10B next few years? You can disagree with biased opinions by Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood.


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## Munir

Donatello said:


> [1] My only reservations with JF-17 are the fact that since it needs at least 2 drop tanks for a typical strike mission, it leaves 5 hardpoints of any use. If one is used up by a pod, then only four are left for Air to Air. These hardpoints should be at least 9 or 10. 2 WVRs, 4 BVRs gives JF-17 a tremendous strike capability, while allowing the remaining hardpoints to be used for 1000lb bombs, pods etc.
> 
> [2]Another thing perhaps PAF can do is develop dedicated JF-17 EW versions, like the F-18 Growlers. So maybe out of 20 or so in a squadron, 4 can be dedicated EW platforms. It's quite possible since the engineering of this plane is entirely in our hands. The only limiting factor is our imagination, foresight and of course, funds.
> 
> [3] Well, at least under this government i see some improvement in finances coming. Economy has stabilized somewhat.
> 
> @Oscar , would you like to add anything?



[1] I guess that they will get CFT when a better engine is introduced. Right now it would cause drag issues that cannot be reduced by dropping fuel tanks... But I think with more and more smart weapons the planes are less needed to carry huge weight. And with IFR and belly tank it is not that bad. Pretty good if you ask me. How far is India? How deep do we have to go?

[2] With AWACS and dedicated jammers we do not need to make a light plane a lot heavier... But... It has already library of all possible radars and DRFM included. And it has links... Only AESA would be nice extra. Read my lips... Block 3.

[3] I do not see lending huge sums is good for anyone. Certainly not with less then 8% improvement. Nawaz is hardly improving the economy, remittance are.

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## sancho

Bilal. said:


> Considering current JF-17 is not far off from the gripen c/d then it's not impossible to imagine for block III to be close to Ng/E.



That depends on what you mean with it's not far from the Gripen? Both a light class 4th gen fighters and with the Block 2 JF 17 will get IFR capability too, techs are broadly comarable too, but then it ends.
The Gripen C comes with better maneuverabitly, more speed, HMS, HOBS missiles and now even will get METEOR at first. It's materials, coatings and design will give it a clear advantage in RCS too. It has a dedicated pod station, which gives it advantages in LGB strikes too. 
The E upgrade puts the Gripen on a whole new level, be it the new payload, or fuel capabilities, the repositioner AESA, advanced EW..., which will give JF 17 Block 3 more than just a few things to catch up. It might be technically in the same generation, the performance of both fighters however might be pretty different at the end.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> That depends on what you mean with it's not far from the Gripen? Both a light class 4th gen fighters and with the Block 2 JF 17 will get IFR capability too, techs are broadly comarable too, but then it ends.
> The Gripen C comes with better maneuverabitly, more speed, HMS, HOBS missiles and now even will get METEOR at first. It's materials, coatings and design will give it a clear advantage in RCS too. It has a dedicated pod station, which gives it advantages in LGB strikes too.
> The E upgrade puts the Gripen on a whole new level, be it the new payload, or fuel capabilities, the repositioner AESA, advanced EW..., which will give JF 17 Block 3 more than just a few things to catch up. It might be technically in the same generation, the performance of both fighters however might be pretty different at the end.



The avionics part of any aircraft is a major component these days. The good thing is, it can always be developed and improved. The F-16 and F-16 MLU proved that a 20 year old plane can be upgraded to a whole new level. Since JF-17 got its inspiration from F-16 and Gripen program, it may be safe to assume that JF-17 will be upgraded. AESA/IRST, RWR etc are all of those components that can be retrofitted at a later stage. The aim now is to induct JF-17 in large numbers. First prototype flew in 2003, first small production version unveiled in 2007, production fully started in 2009 and by 2013 two squadrons stood up along with a few in the Test and evaluation squadron at the PAC. That's all within 5-10 years. How many fighter programs in the world have achieved so much in so little? The block 2 is already coming with improvements and all these would be retro-ed on the blk1 models. Comparing with Gripen only is not fair since Gripen had a start earlier on. What jf-17 needs now is perhaps AESA and IRST. IFRs are not a biggie, as shown on a blk1 aircraft recently. The kinematic performance is already very good. The missile arsenal is already very lethal. The unveiling of CM400AKG naval missile took everyone by surprise. If there is a HOBS in development we probably won't hear it unless it is fully ready.

Confidence in JF-17 is increasing day by day and so is the progress. The permanent presence of some of the earlier prototypes in China indicates that development of the plane is an ongoing process.

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## Bilal.

sancho said:


> That depends on what you mean with it's not far from the Gripen? Both a light class 4th gen fighters and with the Block 2 JF 17 will get IFR capability too, techs are broadly comarable too, but then it ends.
> The Gripen C comes with better maneuverabitly, more speed, HMS, HOBS missiles and now even will get METEOR at first. It's materials, coatings and design will give it a clear advantage in RCS too. It has a dedicated pod station, which gives it advantages in LGB strikes too.
> The E upgrade puts the Gripen on a whole new level, be it the new payload, or fuel capabilities, the repositioner AESA, advanced EW..., which will give JF 17 Block 3 more than just a few things to catch up. It might be technically in the same generation, the performance of both fighters however might be pretty different at the end.



With very similar g limits, climb rate, AoA limits and so forth the manueveribility does not goes vastly on favour of either. Avionics as you agree are comparable. There is high chance we will see a dedicated Hard point for targeting and other pods in block II JFT. For RCS we don't have data for either but JFT was a very low RCS too thanks to hidden engine blade and DSI. There is no limitation in JFT platform to not have an HMD and HOBS missile and so as a platform it is not far off from gripen as I said in my previous post.


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> The avionics part of any aircraft is a major component these days.



That's why I left that out and went to more important differencens, flight performance, RCS, load capability, that's where the JF 17 and where more fuel, coatings, additional hardpoints or more thrust will be needed.



Bilal. said:


> For RCS we don't have data for either but JFT was a very low RCS too thanks to hidden engine blade and DSI.



Actually we do, since it's not designed nor developed to have a low RCS. It has several right angles in it's design itself, mainly makes use of metal compared to modern figthers with non reflecting composites and most crucial it doesn't use RAM or specialised coatings. That makes it comparable or slightly better (due to the smaller size) to older F16s in the fleet, but not comparable to modern fighter in the RCS field.
Btw, as often discussed, DSI is no feature to hide the compressor (that's why it has a Y-duct that turns their airflow around the gearbay), but to improve engine performance!



Bilal. said:


> There is no limitation in JFT platform to not have an HMD and HOBS missile and so as a platform it is not far off from gripen as I said in my previous post.



There is not even a limitation that it could have METEOR (other than costs), but don't confuse wishes of it's capability and the reality! It doesn't have these features yet and it needs to be seen when they will be added Block 2 or 3 only and until these shortcomings are not dealt, there is a clear difference between both fighters.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I expect the J10B with Pakistan forces , if it does not arrives it would be sad 2014 no doubt


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## Munir

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I expect the J10B with Pakistan forces , if it does not arrives it would be sad 2014 no doubt



I would have loved it but let us look at it objectively... The new plane needs a few years introduction, testing and optimizing. And what extra does it give? Everything the J10B has will end up sooner or later in the next bock JF17. So instead getting a new headache we optimize what we have.

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## think@best

Munir said:


> I would have loved it but let us look at it objectively... The new plane needs a few years introduction, testing and optimizing. And what extra does it give? Everything the J10B has will end up sooner or later in the next bock JF17. So instead getting a new headache we optimize what we have.



Waiting for JF 17 Block-II, as you mentioned in your several post that it will be inducted in March 2014. Any concrete news?


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## think@best

NO J10, and eye on Fifth generation????


Originally we have F-16 52 only 18 in service *(4++ Gen)* , 40 are MLU`ed *(4+)* and other are block-15 *( 4 Gen) *. with total of 76 numbers.
JF-17 Block - 1 with total of 49 only comparable to F16-ADF. *(+- 4 Gen)*
With *(3 Gen) *Mirages/F7.

We dont have any alternate of SU30MK1 180+ numbers ( with up coming Rafale 136 ) First priority of PAF should to look into this matter, MODI is elected and he seems like have a very defensive approch against *PAKISTAN*. 

We should procure 4.5 gen aircrafts ( Non American ) at priority at-least 50+ by politics or by loan. After that we can go for 5th Generation.


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## ziaulislam

think@best said:


> NO J10, and eye on Fifth generation????
> 
> 
> Originally we have F-16 52 only 18 in service *(4++ Gen)* , 40 are MLU`ed *(4+)* and other are block-15 *( 4 Gen) *. with total of 76 numbers.
> JF-17 Block - 1 with total of 49 only comparable to F16-ADF. *(+- 4 Gen)*
> With *(3 Gen) *Mirages/F7.
> 
> We dont have any alternate of SU30MK1 180+ numbers ( with up coming Rafale 136 ) First priority of PAF should to look into this matter, MODI is elected and he seems like have a very defensive approch against *PAKISTAN*.
> 
> We should procure 4.5 gen aircrafts ( Non American ) at priority at-least 50+ by politics or by loan. After that we can go for 5th Generation.


I think it should be known that PAF plans/ desires 
+/-100 f-16s
150-250 thunders, those 300+ fighters will counter 600 + 4 th gen indian jets 
50 odd fifth gen fighters to counter 150+ pakfa. 
This will make around 350-400 jets which comes out to be 20 sq.
Even this is best case estimate or wish list. Beyond this, is simply not possible.
J-10 was probably a backup plan in case f-16 didnt materialize in weapons,systems or numbers.


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## Bilal.

sancho said:


> Actually we do, since it's not designed nor developed to have a low RCS. It has several right angles in it's design itself, mainly makes use of metal compared to modern figthers with non reflecting composites and most crucial it doesn't use RAM or specialised coatings. That makes it comparable or slightly better (due to the smaller size) to older F16s in the fleet, but not comparable to modern fighter in the RCS field.
> Btw, as often discussed, DSI is no feature to hide the compressor (that's why it has a Y-duct that turns their airflow around the gearbay), but to improve engine performance!
> 
> 
> 
> There is not even a limitation that it could have METEOR (other than costs), but don't confuse wishes of it's capability and the reality! It doesn't have these features yet and it needs to be seen when they will be added Block 2 or 3 only and until these shortcomings are not dealt, there is a clear difference between both fighters.




Since you did not reply on the performance/manueverability related points so I will assume that you agree that there is not much difference there.

Now coming to RCS your points are valid but they apply to gripen too which was not built ground up as a LO/VLO design so again both are similar for all we know. DSI is not a design feature to intended to reduce RCS but it oes have a side effect of reduced RCS.

As for weapons integration. HOBS missile and HMDS is not my wish list but part of the plan and not just for future blocks. JFTs weapons integration is going on as we speak and all blocks will get HOBS and HMDS .

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - JF-17 Thunder Aircraft

Highly agile Imaging infrared short range missiles

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## random123

But I don't think so J-10 will be with PAF ratehr J-31 is more likely.


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## sancho

Bilal. said:


> Since you did not reply on the performance/manueverability related points so I will assume that you agree that there is not much difference there.



Nope, but I already stated that the Gripen has the better performance and maneuverability (speed, wingloading...).



Bilal. said:


> Now coming to RCS your points are valid but they apply to gripen too which was not built ground up as a LO/VLO design so again both are similar for all we know.



It was designed and developed with high ammounts of non refelcting materials, coatings, radar blockers in the intakes..., all modern design features to reduce the RCS from the start. JF17 on the other hand was not developed with that aim (since the priority were aimed on low costs), but will get some of these features as later upgrades.[/quote]


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## Bilal.

sancho said:


> Nope, but I already stated that the Gripen has the better performance and maneuverability (speed, wingloading...).



speed yes but that's not so important, as for wing loading, it's a design feature to impact manoeuvrability but is not manoeuvrability on it's own. As I said in my previous posts, the measures of manoeuvrability (climb raye, AoA, etc) are virtually the same for both.



> It was designed and developed with high ammounts of non refelcting materials, coatings, radar blockers in the intakes..., all modern design features to reduce the RCS from the start. JF17 on the other hand was not developed with that aim (since the priority were aimed on low costs), but will get some of these features as later upgrades.



Again hypothetical assumptions. Neither of us have the actual RCS figures for JFT and gripen. Let's not indulge in speculation but I still hold that the RCS of JFT is quite low given the anecdotal accounts which put it as the lowest in PAF inventory including the F-16 block 52.

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## Storm Force

JF17 stil uses all metal alloy airframe RATHER than more expensive but far superior composite material found on more modern 4th gen fighters.

without composites the airframe of thunder is weaker and more suspectable to fatigue damage and will emit far more radar signals.

PAF saved money by cutting corners but at cost of inferior airframe

so bilal your comment about lowest RCS is flawed


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## Side-Winder

think@best said:


> NO J10, and eye on Fifth generation????
> 
> 
> Originally we have F-16 52 only 18 in service *(4++ Gen)* , 40 are MLU`ed *(4+)* and other are block-15 *( 4 Gen) *. with total of 76 numbers.
> JF-17 Block - 1 with total of 49 only comparable to F16-ADF. *(+- 4 Gen)*
> With *(3 Gen) *Mirages/F7.
> 
> We dont have any alternate of SU30MK1 180+ numbers ( with up coming Rafale 136 ) First priority of PAF should to look into this matter, MODI is elected and he seems like have a very defensive approch against *PAKISTAN*.
> 
> We should procure 4.5 gen aircrafts ( Non American ) at priority at-least 50+ by politics or by loan. After that we can go for 5th Generation.



Rafales aren't confirmed at all -- secondly those 180 Su-MKi aren't only for pakistan. there is a fleet bigger than indian in china.

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## Storm Force

pakistanis stil hoping china will come to the rescue

modi first overseas trip is china to double trade.

so dont rely on china they did nothing to help in 1999 kargil


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## Side-Winder

so indians think, in case of war, they will bring all of their MKIs to pakistani borders and leave the rest of their bases alongside indian-chinese border

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## Bilal.

Storm Force said:


> JF17 stil uses all metal alloy airframe RATHER than more expensive but far superior composite material found on more modern 4th gen fighters.
> 
> without composites the airframe of thunder is weaker and more suspectable to fatigue damage and will emit far more radar signals.
> 
> PAF saved money by cutting corners but at cost of inferior airframe
> 
> so bilal your comment about lowest RCS is flawed



JFT is a cleaner design compared to gripen whose frontal RCS would be ruined by canard. Unless you have access to hard data all of us a just hypothesising.


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## Sinnerman108

Storm Force said:


> pakistanis stil hoping china will come to the rescue
> 
> modi first overseas trip is china to double trade.
> 
> so dont rely on china they did nothing to help in 1999 kargil



If you believed what you are suggesting, you wouldn't have taken the pain of posting it.



Storm Force said:


> JF17 stil uses all metal alloy airframe RATHER than more expensive but far superior composite material found on more modern 4th gen fighters.
> 
> without composites the airframe of thunder is weaker and more suspectable to fatigue damage and will emit far more radar signals.
> 
> PAF saved money by cutting corners but at cost of inferior airframe
> 
> so bilal your comment about lowest RCS is flawed



Please, shower some celestial knowledge and tell us exactly how the use of composites lower RCS ?
While you are at it, tell me why fatigue can only be attributed to metal frames ?


Take your time, and use surgical precision if you have to; we would love to understand this.

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## Storm Force

Mr Smart Arse Salman.

Here is a link explaining the advantages of composites

Why Composites? - Premix Inc.

I suggest you play attention to point 9 & 10 AND HOW THEY COMPOSITES in stealth fighters play a crucial role in absorbing radar signals.

All the euro canards and both J10 & LCA TEJAS have extensive composite material airframes.

" dont be too embasressed " you live and learn everyday


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## Basel

All of those Indians posting about hypothetical situation in which they think with out J-10s PAF will not be able to hand IAFs on slot are living in fools heaven, get the hint why the hell PAF's senior F-16 pilots flying Chinese Flankers in China??

There are many things which are not disclosed and modi's visit to double trade will not change strategic realities on the ground, remember what India is doing against China in every possible way.

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## Bilal.

Storm Force said:


> Mr Smart Arse Salman.
> 
> Here is a link explaining the advantages of composites
> 
> Why Composites? - Premix Inc.
> 
> I suggest you play attention to point 9 & 10 AND HOW THEY COMPOSITES in stealth fighters play a crucial role in absorbing radar signals.
> 
> All the euro canards and both J10 & LCA TEJAS have extensive composite material airframes.
> 
> " dont be too embasressed " you live and learn everyday



Shape is more important in RCS than material. As I said JFT is a clean design with hidden engine blades and DSI compared to canard touting gripen.


Multi-frequency RCS Reduction Characteristics of Shape Stealth with MLFMA with Improved MMN

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## gambit

Shaping and absorber are to be complementary to each other. Not an either/or argument.

Take the wing, for example. Edge on, the wing produces a very low RCS, but upon maneuvering, there will be times when the wing will not present itself as an edge, which produces diffused diffraction signals, but a plate, which will reflect like a mirror and may give the seeking radar enough energy to effect detection.







What absorber formulation can do is to allow some measure of penetration or pass through, let the particles attenuate the incoming signal, then as some energy will exit the material because it is pass through, the energy level will be significantly decreased from original and direction of exit may not make it back to the seeking radar.

The problem here is how to calculate the judicious use of both tactics as dictated by the aircraft design itself.

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## Bilal.

@gambit what I meant was that shaping has greater impact on RCS reduction than simply using absorbent materials on a reflective shape. Once a design has reached a certain level on VLO shaping, designers can apply absorbers on reflective parts of the airplane to further reduce the signature.

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## gambit

Bilal. said:


> @gambit what I meant was that shaping has greater impact on RCS reduction than simply using absorbent materials on a reflective shape. Once a design has reached a certain level on VLO shaping, designers can apply absorbers on reflective parts of the airplane to further reduce the signature.


You are correct -- for now. Absorber technology is evolving and the next iteration will be active cancellation at the materials level.

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## Last Samuri

Bilal there is no stealth shaping to thunder.

Back to topic paf with j10 is stronger than without. No arguments.

And yes your f16 are vulnerable to sanctions. 

Has happenrd before and can happen 
In future.

But you have no choice to go anywhere else.


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## PWFI

Storm Force said:


> pakistanis stil hoping china will come to the rescue
> 
> modi first overseas trip is china to double trade.
> 
> so dont rely on china they did nothing to help in 1999 kargil


who need help while dealing with vegetarians 
If i am not wrong it was vajpay who run to US for helps during kargil conflicts----Actually i am very happy modi is in power, now this monkey will start the war, and we will get an escuse to get ride of you once for all, we will finnish the unfinnished job

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## PakShaheen79

Just one point. Didn't A.C Khalid sahib also said that it is HIS OPINION and decision will be made at higher level? So, why most of the members here have assumed his opinion as the official policy of PAF? I think we must give it more time. F-16 is indeed a better suited platform from PAF point of view (experience, existing infrastructure, realiability) but the potential J-10B holds (AESA, no threat of sanctions, possible TOT) for future surpass all the advantages of F-16 in the long run.

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## Munir

gambit said:


> You are correct -- for now. Absorber technology is evolving and the next iteration will be active cancellation at the materials level.



I do not think that is the next step. It is already done. Take those ECM with DRFM. if you knew what they are doing right now to give realistic looking changes in radar reflection and I mean you know if I say 400 Mhz a few clock cycles... I am not a expert but I have talked to some and followed more then a few classes/books...

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## Bilal.

Last Samuri said:


> Bilal there is no stealth shaping to thunder.



Never said that. The only point is that it's a clean design so saying it has a great disadvantage in terms of RCS to gripen as your compatriates are saying would be wrong.



gambit said:


> You are correct -- for now. Absorber technology is evolving and the next iteration will be active cancellation at the materials level.



So materials that would absorb signals and radiate them out of phase in the same direction? Interesting! Is there any literature out there to read about it?


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## Kompromat

Stick to the topic.


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## MastanKhan

Storm Force said:


> Mr Smart Arse Salman.
> 
> Here is a link explaining the advantages of composites
> 
> Why Composites? - Premix Inc.
> 
> I suggest you play attention to point 9 & 10 AND HOW THEY COMPOSITES in stealth fighters play a crucial role in absorbing radar signals.
> 
> All the euro canards and both J10 & LCA TEJAS have extensive composite material airframes.
> 
> " dont be too embasressed " you live and learn everyday


 
Sir,

That is a simpleton's way of making an issue out of nothing----.

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## Informant

Hahaha why are Indians giving their "guided" opinions?

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## Basel

People are forgetting that PAF is getting F-16 easily these days which will allow them to have some breathing space as JF-17s are also maturing fast, J-10s will only come in when Rafaels will become threat, because it was meant for air defense first then other roles for PAF, right now F-16s are doing fine, with JF-17 upgrade block by block PAF may never need J-10s.

People should remember when F-16 was inducted in USAF it was only built as light fighter for day light ops, look where it stands now? same approach may be taken by PAF for JF-17s.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The F16 BLK 52 and the MLU'd F 16's are more advanced than the best J10 B with its current electronics and weapons package----until the J 10 gets aesa radar----there is no sense in getting it now.

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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The F16 BLK 52 and the MLU'd F 16's are more advanced than the best J10 B with its current electronics and weapons package----until the J 10 gets aesa radar----there is no sense in getting it now.


Mastan khan.
The J10B is rumoured to have an AESA radar. I think PAF like always will allow the platform to mature with the WS10. The time to buy newer platform will be when IAF places its order for the Rafale. At that stage PAF will depending on the country's finances buy whatever it can to counteract the Rafale. It might be J10 or another platform which might have come out or be about to come out. So PAFs plans with regards to the next platform remain fluid and reactive.
Araz

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## Donatello

araz said:


> Mastan khan.
> The J10B is rumoured to have an AESA radar. I think PAF like always will allow the platform to mature with the WS10. The time to buy newer platcorm will be when IAF places its order for the Rafale. At that stage PAF will depending on the country's finances buy whatever it can to counteract the Rafale. It might be J10 or another platform which might have come out or be about to come out. So PAFs plans with regards to the next platform remain fluid and reactive.
> Araz



I think that was the plan way back, but if PAF can get its hands on used F-16s MLUs or non-Mlu, then there is no point in acquiring J-10. JF-17 production is now ramping up, plus even if we go for J-10s, there is no point in acquiring couple of squadrons. Should be atleast 4 or more. J-10 isn't cheap as well. I think the last quoted figures were 40million a piece.

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## Kurama

PWFI said:


> who need help while dealing with vegetarians
> If i am not wrong it was vajpay who run to US for helps during kargil conflicts----Actually i am very happy modi is in power, now this monkey will start the war, and we will get an escuse to get ride of you once for all, we will finnish the unfinnished job


finished unfinished job...hw.
by posting another post on pdf......
damn these internet warriors....


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## araz

Donatello said:


> I think that was the plan way back, but if PAF can get its hands on used F-16s MLUs or non-Mlu, then there is no point in acquiring J-10. JF-17 production is now ramping up, plus even if we go for J-10s, there is no point in acquiring couple of squadrons. Should be atleast 4 or more. J-10 isn't cheap as well. I think the last quoted figures were 40million a piece.


Agreed. All I have tried to say is that PAF will react to the situation as it develops across the border. More MKIs more MLUed F16s. Rafale will require a response which will have to be appropriate. I think at the time PAF will put on show whatever it has been cooking over the years. No one denies the efficacy of the JFT. It will continue to develop and become not only the backbone of the PAC but will continue to benefit from the J10 Development. It will become a very effective platform in due course. However the fact remains that the Rafale would need a response and PAF will now be looking eastwards for its needs.
Araz


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## rockstarIN

Side-Winder said:


> so indians think, in case of war, they will bring all of their MKIs to pakistani borders and leave the rest of their bases alongside indian-chinese border




Few MKIs took off from very deep eastern air force bases and did offensive missions, both strike and A2A, during Iron fist exercise at western border. I flew non stop and reached for offensive in an hour. More than 400 jets participated in the exercise which see MKIs are flying in from all three directions into the target area.


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## PoKeMon

Aeronaut said:


> Even Rafale is not 'confirmed'. Indian MoD has signed no such deal so far, nor any rafales have so far been 'ordered'.



The question is if Rafale confirmed, are they coming with AESA? And you think not.


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## PWFI

Kurama said:


> finished unfinished job...hw.
> by posting another post on pdf......
> damn these internet warriors....


It seem i hurt your feelings


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## Kurama

PWFI said:


> It seem i hurt your feelings


hurt my feeling on what....
tell me hw will u do that...by posting new posts....


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## PWFI

Kurama said:


> hurt my feeling on what....
> tell me hw will u do that...by posting new posts....


You wouldn't have quote my post, if didn't have hurt your feeling, i feel something burning even behind these smilies


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## gambit

Bilal. said:


> So materials that would absorb signals and radiate them out of phase in the same direction? Interesting! Is there any literature out there to read about it?


No...Active cancellation at the materials level would make the body not radiate at all. The absorber materials would allow pass through, but inside or below the surface there would be active electrical measures to cancel out the signal. This is not the SPECTRA-like method, which is junk against opposition AESA systems, in my opinion.

Once -- not if -- the technology is proven to withstand environmental and structural stresses, the next step would be beyond laboratory manufacturing capability, then studies will be made on adapting the technology to existing airframes, effectively making every fighter either truly invisible to radar, or so low in reflectivity that an alternative to radar must be developed.

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## UKBengali

Storm Force said:


> pakistanis stil hoping china will come to the rescue
> 
> modi first overseas trip is china to double trade.
> 
> *so dont rely on china they did nothing to help in 1999 kargil*



China is far more powerful now than it was in 1999.

As China grows to become a superpower it will impose it's will on those who seek to challenge it's dominance on the Asian continent.


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## aliyusuf

Just wanted to share ...

H.Khan, a senior member of the PakDef.org forum, has posted the following ...



> Some days old news: PAF Air Vice Marshall Sohail Aman, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) is in the US. Yesterday he visited Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona. He'll be traveling to LM plant at DFW, also PAF is planning to acquire 17 more Jordanian F-16s and 14 from another source.
> 
> *PAF and China now in negotiation to co-develop/produce FC-20 at PAC. FC-20 is third version of original J-10A. Chengdu has already told PLAAF that in its present facilities it can't manage the orders that PLAAF has placed. Few factors have stalled FC-20 are financial, WS-10 has not developed into a performance based engine, if the present engine is used then the both China and Pakistan have to conduct negotiations with Russia.
> 
> There are three different versions of J-10. J-10A (present production), J-10B (Testing phase) and FC-20.*
> 
> Since there are production capacity issues with J-10, PLAN has received only enough aircrafts for one regiment and it is pushing to get more J-10 at faster rate which is not possible. PLAN has started to look at FC-1/JF-17 to fill the gap for its needs. If this goes through the order for FC-1/JF-17 would be close to 300 aircrafts. ...

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## Basel

@aliyusuf If true then FC-20 may be equal to J-10C or be better variant with AESA radar and customized as per Pakistani requirement, which means boost in capabilities.


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## Drebin

@aliyusuf, How old is H'Khan's post? And can any senior member elaborate the significance of PLAN ordering PAC 300 FC-1 and, what would it mean for our Airforce? I mean from financial and business point of view?


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## aliyusuf

Drebin said:


> @aliyusuf, How old is H'Khan's post? And can any senior member elaborate the significance of PLAN ordering PAC 300 FC-1 and, what would it mean for our Airforce? I mean from financial and business point of view?



It was posted yesterday.

For any one who is not aware of H.Khan, he has been a member of the PaKDef forum since 2001 and has over 13000 posts.
He usually has a good percentage of being correct.

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## LonE_WolF

Drebin said:


> @aliyusuf, How old is H'Khan's post? And can any senior member elaborate the significance of PLAN ordering PAC 300 FC-1 and, what would it mean for our Airforce? I mean from financial and business point of view?


Sometime ago president Mamnoon said that China will buy JF17 from Pakistan........ so maybe there is some possibility that what is stated above might be true.....

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## araz

Drebin said:


> @aliyusuf, How old is H'Khan's post? And can any senior member elaborate the significance of PLAN ordering PAC 300 FC-1 and, what would it mean for our Airforce? I mean from financial and business point of view?


As you know PAC has 58% share in the JFT .That means profits will be shared in that order. I think it would be fantastic not only for PAC but also for JFT as it would boost its prospects of export.

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## Fahad Khan 2

LonE_WolF said:


> Sometime ago president Mamnoon said that China will buy JF17 from Pakistan........ so maybe there is some possibility that what is stated above might be true.....


President Mamnoon Hussain has described his visit to China as successful. Pakistani President said that Chinese side has agreed to induct FC-1/JF-17 Thunder fighter jets into its Air Force. This will help in bringing the per unit price down and increase the chances of garbing export orders. He also added that China will continue to cooperate on the JF-17 project.

China has also agreed to extend its cooperation in fighter against terrorism and will supply Pakistan army with helicopters. China and Pakistan will also soon finalize contract to jointly develop and produce submarines for Pakistan Navy.

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## Drebin

araz said:


> As you know PAC has 58% sbare I the JFT .That means profits will be shared in that order. I think it would be fantastic not only for PAC but also for JFT as it would boost its prospects of export.


I realize that nothing concrete has been penned down and, what we are discussing is purely "might happen scenerio." But, if you could bear with me a little longer then, could you put a finger on the Block that PLAN will opt for? Or will they upgrade the order as new Blocks are introduced as per PAF's regime/plan? And what do you assume it means for Block-IV and V? After all, 300 aircraft is a hulking order.

Also, as per my calculations, Black-I and Black-II will net $4.5 Billion and $7.5 Billion respectively. Assuming, that's what PLAN orders, what will be net sum that goes to PAC as per 58% formula? Or do you think that, the entire amount will go to PAC as China won't be categorized as an export customer. Thus, no profit sharing formula implies. Or am I wrong?


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## Chak Bamu

Let us wait for confirmation. H Khan's quoted post points in many directions all at once. 

One must bear in mind that PAF uses these forums to plant stories that could be right or be misleading. Often senior posters know / can guess the matter. So, I can not say which of his assertions are right. Seems to me that PAF interest in more used F-16s is right. FC-20 lead is questionable. I will believe 300 Fc-1 story when I actually see it being inducted in PLAAF. We could see it soon if indeed it is correct.

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## araz

Drebin said:


> I realize that nothing concrete has been penned down and, what we are discussing is purely "might happen scenerio." But, if you could bear with me a little longer then, could you put a finger on the Block that PLAN will opt for? Or will they upgrade the order as new Blocks are introduced as per PAF's regime/plan? And what do you assume it means for Block-IV and V? After all, 300 aircraft is a hulking order.
> 
> Also, as per my calculations, Black-I and Black-II will net $4.5 Billion and $7.5 Billion respectively. Assuming, that's what PLAN orders, what will be net sum that goes to PAC as per 58% formula? Or do you think that, the entire amount will go to PAC as China won't be categorized as an export customer. Thus, no profit sharing formula implies. Or am I wrong?


 
Although the block will depend on PLAAN demands and requirements if a contract gets signed in 2014, deliveries will start from 18- 24 months later. We are looking into block 3 hopefully by that time.So this by sheer logic should be what will be supplied. As to the nitty gritty of who gets what it is difficult to state fact without actually looking at the terms of the contract. Either way profit sharing should be 58- 42. I would be lying if I said I know much more than that. As to numbers, given our productions rates it will take really long to prduce 300 JFTs while fulfilling our orders as well.

Araz


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## Drebin

@araz, your assessment makes sense sir and so does @Chak Bamu's. It's simply better to wait and watch instead of analyzing it prior to its occurrence.

And lastly, what's your opinion/thinking on the matter that its the PLAN's intention for induction FC-1 and, not PLAAF? Any particular reasons?


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## araz

Drebin said:


> @araz, your assessment makes sense sir and so does @Chak Bamu's. It's simply better to wait and watch instead of analyzing it prior to its occurrence.
> 
> And lastly, what's your opinion/thinking on the matter that its the PLAN's intention for induction FC-1 and, not PLAAF? Any particular reasons?


Shore based fighter with IFR and ASMs. What more can one want.
Araz


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## Drebin

araz said:


> Shore based fighter with IFR and ASMs. What more can one want.
> Araz


Doesn't J11B or J10 provide the same advantage?


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## araz

Drebin said:


> Doesn't J11B or J10 provide the same advantage?


Both cannot be produced quickly enough. CAC has a backlog of orders for j10s and cant produce enough to fulfill PLAN demands(according to Hkhan of pakdef.info).
Araz


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## Drebin

I see. . . Thanks @araz.


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## Kompromat

A former air chief too is strongly against the induction of the Fc-20 for the many reasons we've been discussing.


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## Drebin

Aeronaut said:


> A former air chief too is strongly against the induction of the Fc-20 for the many reasons we've been discussing.


It won't be wise anyway to induct a 4.5 Gen platform and, that also not matured yet, this late in the game. The only and wise option is what PAF is doing, i.e., induct more vipers and MLU them to Block 52 standard while concentrating funds and efforts in Thunders. Its better to jump to 5th gen platform as soon as possible instead of J-10s.


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## araz

Drebin said:


> It won't be wise anyway to induct a 4.5 Gen platform and, that also not matured yet, this late in the game. The only and wise option is what PAF is doing, i.e., induct more vipers and MLU them to Block 52 standard while concentrating funds and efforts in Thunders. Its better to jump to 5th gen platform as soon as possible instead of J-10s.


My worry is that PAF has suddenly changed its tack of having the duplicate systems. Why is that and what has changed. If there is a confrontation and the US blocks spares supply what will happen to our nuclear threshold. Unless the reading is that the nuclear threshold will be crossed as soon as there is confrontation. The second issue is what are we giving to get all the goodies from uncle. However whichever way we look a t the situation the induction of more A&B16s cannot be bad if the system could be homogenised. BL52S That is a different story.
Araz


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## VCheng

araz said:


> My worry is that PAF has suddenly changed its tack of having the duplicate systems. *Why is that and what has changed.* If there is a confrontation and the US blocks spares supply what will happen to our nuclear threshold. Unless the reading is that the nuclear threshold will be crossed as soon as there is confrontation. The second issue is what are we giving to get all the goodies from uncle. However whichever way we look a t the situation the induction of more A&B16s cannot be bad if the system could be homogenised. BL52S That is a different story.
> Araz



May be the "duplicate systems" are not working as well as was hyped?


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## Drebin

@araz,
I guess sir that PAF only entertained the idea of J-10 to counter the IAF Rafale threat. Since it hasn't materialized yet and, may be PAF has the inside information/intelligence that it may never either as IAF is already stretched thin with LCA, MKI, PAK-FA and the indigenous effort to kick start AMCA. Their Mirage 2000-5s are performing above their expectations and MKI form the backbone of their MRCA. With the imminent launch of LCA, massive funds invested in PAK-FA and ambition to kick start AMCA project, its may be a plan logical for even laymen to assume that IAF scrapping Rafale and aiming to introduce 5th Gen platform like rest of the world or say, Pakistan ?!

Let's not forget that once Pakistan itself was interested in Rafale and other MRCA as Typhoon. But thing is, at that time PAF or Pakistan Government also had that kind of financial muscle to squeeze. But things changed after 2005 earthquake, political instability and so on and so forth. Thus, in my humble view, both forces have simply been power posturing in order to gauge the adversary's reaction. And after all these many years, they've simply realized that both of them have played into one an others hands and ended up presenting MRCA nothing more then a boogeyman for each other. And I say good for both of us as it halted an other arms race in South Asia or it'd have ended up redundant platforms with same roles in either Air Force, training and logistical nightmare and bleeding the economy dry.

But of course, I may be entirely wrong and IAF still has Rafale on the papers. If so, then rest assured that, PAF hasn't given up on the option of J-10 either .

On the side note, since we and PAF are of the opinion that next platform to be introduced should actually be a 5th Gen aircraft vs 4.5++ Gen. So what are the chances of us opting for F-35 Lightening II instead of J-31 and why? A detailed and logical answer will be deeply appreciated.

Thanks.

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## VCheng

Drebin said:


> So what are the chances of us opting for F-35 Lightening II instead of J-31 and why?



Whether the USA put the F-35/II on offer to begin with, is the first question to ask before Pakistan can "opt" for it.


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## araz

VCheng said:


> May be the "duplicate systems" are not working as well as was hyped?


Possibly or the needs at the moment is rapid induction of platform to circumvent block obsolescence. The US also has become more receptive to PAFs needs.


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## VCheng

araz said:


> Possibly or the needs at the moment is rapid induction of platform to circumvent block obsolescence. The US also has become more receptive to PAFs needs.



It would be wise to assume USA's receptiveness as being fickle given the history. The whole point of the duplication strategy was to hedge against such episodes of feasting followed by long droughts, no?


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## Drebin

VCheng said:


> Whether the USA put the F-35/II on offer to begin with, is the first question to ask before Pakistan can "opt" for it.


True sir. Can't refute you there. But if its indeed a fact then, can we dig ourselves out of this predicament is also a question.


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## S.U.R.B.

Drebin said:


> Let's not forget that once Pakistan itself was interested in Rafale and other MRCA as Typhoon. But thing is, at that time PAF or Pakistan Government also had that kind of financial muscle to squeeze. But things changed after 2005 earthquake, political instability and so on and so forth. Thus, in my humble view, both forces have simply been power posturing in order to gauge the adversary's reaction. And after all these many years, they've simply realized that both of them have played into one an others hands and ended up presenting MRCA nothing more then a boogeyman for each other. And I say good for both of us as it halted an other arms race in South Asia or it'd have ended up redundant platforms with same roles in either Air Force, training and logistical nightmare and bleeding the economy dry.



A slight correction for the sake of the young readers.
Things didn't go bad for Rafale and Typhoon after the 2005 major earthquake.But those were the F-16s and their number was reduced to 18 from the original number of 36.So, that was the most recent lost opportunity.And this is exactly the one that they'll most likely want to grab once more.

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## VCheng

Drebin said:


> True sir. Can't refute you there. But if its indeed a fact then, can we dig ourselves out of this predicament is also a question.



Much will depend on how Pakistan's co-operation, or lack thereof, is perceived in DC over the next couple of years given the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I hope Pakistan plays its hand better than in the recent past.


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## Donatello

VCheng said:


> Much will depend on how Pakistan's co-operation, or lack thereof, is perceived in DC over the next couple of years given the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I hope Pakistan plays its hand better than in the recent past.



Then US needs to define what it wants to achieve in the region. From the looks of it, they have been an utmost failure in every respect. Afghanistan is worse off than before. No changes have happened. All those billions of USD that went in, went no where.


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## Kompromat

@Drebin | F-35s are not available for PAF, We cant afford the, even if we could they are not up to the job as many nations consider to scrap it due to poor performance.

We have an option (given the economy) to become a partner in the PT-31001 program. It would have immense industrial benefits for Pakistan's aviation industry on top of its operational benefits.

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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Then US needs to define what it wants to achieve in the region. From the looks of it, they have been an utmost failure in every respect. Afghanistan is worse off than before. No changes have happened. All those billions of USD that went in, went no where.



Here is Pakistan's chance to provide useful input to mutual advantage:

US to prepare strategy with Pakistan’s help



Aeronaut said:


> @Drebin | F-35s are not available for PAF, We cant afford the, even if we could they are not up to the job as many nations consider to scrap it due to poor performance.
> 
> We have an option (given the economy) to become a partner in the PT-31001 program. It would have immense industrial benefits for Pakistan's aviation industry on top of its operational benefits.



Scrap? 

The F-35 will mature into a great platform, please mark my words.


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## Kompromat

> Scrap?
> 
> The F-35 will mature into a great platform, please mark my words.



Yes - Scrap.

Britain 'should consider scrapping F-35 stealth fighter' - Telegraph

MP blasts F-35 jet deal - The West Australian

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## VCheng

Aeronaut said:


> Yes - Scrap.
> 
> Britain 'should consider scrapping F-35 stealth fighter' - Telegraph
> 
> MP blasts F-35 jet deal - The West Australian



Scrapping a deal is a very different meaning than calling the F-35 scrap. Like I said, this plane will mature very nicely. Undoubtedly.

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## Indus Falcon

VCheng said:


> Scrapping a deal is a very different meaning than calling the F-35 scrap. Like I said, this plane will mature very nicely. Undoubtedly.


You are right, it will mature. But that will take some time, quite possibly 8, 10, or more years. For now, it's too expensive to be justified. One could argue buying an F16 Block61, would be better.


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## VCheng

Abu Nasar said:


> You are right, it will mature. But that will take some time, quite possibly 8, 10, or more years. For now, it's too expensive to be justified. One could argue buying an F16 Block61, would be better.



Either more F-16s, or the J10B or similar Chinese planes. Whatever is on offer for PAF, including financing, right?


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## Indus Falcon

VCheng said:


> Either more F-16s, or the J10B or similar Chinese planes. Whatever is on offer for PAF, including financing, right?



Inducting a new platform is never easy. You always have teething issues. Just as an example look at the 777. The operators are minting money right now. But back in the mid/ late 90's it was called the "trouble seven." 

Secondly, the J-10b sits somewhere slightly above, a JF17 and well below a Blk52+. In terms of capability, it does not offer a lot more than the JF17 to justify it's induction. 

Our teething issues were quite limited with the JF17 because we were involved in it from day one, and besides that we are manufacturing it as well.

In my opinion, (which could be severely flawed since I'm not an air force guy), Pakistan should stick to the F16 - JF17 combo and look for a 5th gen aircraft. 

TO finance additional F16's should not be an issue, should Pakistan play it's cards right, and common sense prevails. The US could always do it with soft loans / grants, in the interest of keeping the line open, and maintaining good ties with Pakistan.

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## Indus Falcon

123Com said:


> Can you tell me that were the earlier 50 JF-17s were Chinese funded and will the next 50 will again be Chinese funded?



Nishan, I have really come to enjoy your posts. During a stressful day, your posts can be be very helpful. Thanks!!

Dear Mods, Kindly do not ban him this time.

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## sancho

araz said:


> As you know PAC has 58% share in the JFT .That means profits will be shared in that order. I think it would be fantastic not only for PAC but also for JFT as it would boost its prospects of export.



In JFT, but also in FC1? JFT is basically the export version, which Pakistan has co-developed including the customisations with avionics from Pakistan and under requirements of PAF. But FC 1 is meant to be the Chinese version and why would they pay money to Pakistan, for a fighter that they don't just produce under licence, but as the prime manufacturer, which includes mainly Chinese techs and weapons anyway?
Besides I don't think that it makes any financial or operational sense for China to go for FC 1, when it means to add a new type of fighter, with different radar, engines and spares. Adding more J10s would be the more logical and most likely even cost-effective choice, obviously without sharing any paymeants with Pakistan either.

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## Bilal.

@sancho jft/fc-1 was co-developed and any export of either jft configuration or fc-1 will follow revenue sharing model. That's why all marketing is being done jointly.

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## sancho

Bilal. said:


> @sancho jft/fc-1 was co-developed and any export of either jft configuration or fc-1 will follow revenue sharing model. That's why all marketing is being done jointly.



Marketing of the "JFT" for "export customers", China is not an export customer!


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## Bilal.

sancho said:


> Marketing of the "JFT" for "export customers", China is not an export customer!




Oh so you are talking in case Chinese produce it for their own use? Yes in that case I dont think there will be anything paid to PAC unless there is work sharing involved.


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## dexter

Abu Nasar said:


> Nishan, I have really come to enjoy your posts. During a stressful day, your posts can be be very helpful. Thanks!!
> 
> Dear Mods, Kindly do not ban him this time.



Nishan : Pakistan should get 1000 F-22 raptors , 200000 Leapord tanks , 50 aircraft carriers etc etc

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## blain2

RaptorRX707 said:


> Disappointed and outrage. It will leave our sky valuable for French Rafale threat.
> 
> Unfortunately PAF is lagging behind.


Not every shiny new toy is the best or the best against us. Any new system will take years to build inventory and its effective employment is an even longer endeavor. PAF is doing just fine. The high state of operational readiness and the pace of modernization within the PAF has escaped many. Most are happy comparing specifications on paper to come to negative conclusions about the PAF's capabilities yet the reality is quite different. In the new and MLU F-16s, JF-17s and AEW platforms, we have a very robust offensive/defensive capability in place.

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## Drebin

blain2 said:


> Not every shiny new toy is the best. PAF is doing just fine. The high state of operational readiness and the pace of modernization within the PAF has escaped many. Most are happy comparing specifications on paper to come to negative conclusions about the PAF's capabilities.


Sir, how can a laymen get a better understanding of his/her Air Force if not for the paper specification? Please don't get me wrong but, we've no reliable or agreed upon measure -at least by senior mods and members like yourself- to put the capabilities of an Air Force to litmus test. While, our blind/unguided enthusiasm and patriotism can only get us so far. So, this isn't the place or time but, I'd take this opportunity to request creating a sticky thread via which one can educate oneself and have healthy discussion(s) on the subject.

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## ziaulislam

sancho said:


> Marketing of the "JFT" for "export customers", China is not an export customer!


Being a senior member I thought you would know how fiance deals works..jf-17 is joint venture between two.contractors, the Chinese if they want to, will buy it from these contractors (I.e Pac,cac) under which 58% airframe will be produced here and rest in China( even for aircarfts that are build for paf) however this is only for airframe. The avionics Chinese will have their own. Meaning only a fraction of profit (if any) will be earned by Pac,the Chinese wouldn't mind as setting another assemble line and manufacturing the half of the aircraft will cost them even more.....
A good example will be of f-16when some aircrafts flown by USAF had foreign parts under the joint venture.
However whether the chinse buy them or not is to be seen. They did made a commitment of 100 at the beginning. The only real advantage to pad will be that cost of production will go down as profit for the contractors is based upon the nos produced.

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## Drebin

Aeronaut said:


> @Drebin | F-35s are not available for PAF, We cant afford the, even if we could they are not up to the job as many nations consider to scrap it due to poor performance.
> 
> We have an option (given the economy) to become a partner in the PT-31001 program. It would have immense industrial benefits for Pakistan's aviation industry on top of its operational benefits.


Sir, is such an option indeed on the table for PAF or is it your assumption based on Sino-pak relationships? And assuming we do then, what kind of expertise or knowledge could we bring to such a project?


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## Kompromat

Drebin said:


> Sir, is such an option indeed on the table for PAF or is it your assumption based on Sino-pak relationships? And assuming we do then, what kind of expertise or knowledge could we bring to such a project?



There is certainly chatter among the blue caps in regards to a strategic induction of a 5th gen platform. My hunch is that Indian Rafale is going to be delayed and won't arrive in full strength before 2022-23. PAF will mitigate the threat by procuring surplus F-16s in numbers then inducting them after MLU. This will boost PAF's fighting abilities, morale and would take burden off the JF-17s so the PAF would seek to develop it much more vigorously in further blocks. PAF in my opinion wants to have as many F-16s as it can get to replace F-7Ps while the JF-17 will replace the Mirages. More F-16s also add more capability to the JF-17s when flying in a team. Together they can take care of anything IAF has to throw including the Rafale.

If my assessment is correct then, PAF would save up (good if more JFT, Mushak exports come along) to opt for project the 31001 instead of the J-10B/C.

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## RAMPAGE

Aeronaut said:


> If my assessment is correct then, PAF would save up (good if more JFT, Mushak exports come along) to opt for project the 31001 instead of the J-10B/C.


What's with the fascination with J-31 ??? 

Why not jump in with the Koreans or the Turks. This way, there'll be maximum Pakistani input in our NG aircraft.


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## blain2

Drebin said:


> Sir, how can a laymen get a better understanding of his/her Air Force if not for the paper specification? Please don't get me wrong but, we've no reliable or agreed upon measure -at least by senior mods and members like yourself- to put the capabilities of an Air Force to litmus test. While, our blind/unguided enthusiasm and patriotism can only get us so far. So, this isn't the place or time but, I'd take this opportunity to request creating a sticky thread via which one can educate oneself and have healthy discussion(s) on the subject.



In all honesty, if there is something about which I lack knowledge, and there is plenty of that, it would be much better if I held back my verdict on it. Perhaps the poster needs to expand on the statement "PAF is lagging behind". What does that mean? Are our sqns understrength? Are we lacking a very specific force wide capability for us to judge the PAF as lagging behind? Lets try to quantify that and not simply go by the fact that we have old aircraft in service since we certainly are not the only ones in the Indo-Pak context or even beyond to be in that situation. Obsolescence is part and parcel of aircraft lifecycle in any Air Force. We also should not be taken in by marketing that goes around each new weapon systems. I can very easily argue that given the iterations of upgrades and the amount of research that has gone into the F-16 program, there is nothing revolutionary in the Rafale for it to become a game changer in Pakistan's context.

One constant for us is that IAF will always have more of everything but that is something that the AHQ considers in all of its planning. Ours is primarily a defensive Air Force with a very potent offensive capability. There is significant early warning and stand-off attack capability on hand in the PAF now to do a very robust job of defending Pakistan's air space. I liken our capabilities to a decent Swiss Army knife that we have on our side and perhaps it does not have every single tool in the world, but what it does have is good enough for our region. Such is the case with the PAF. There is a thread on this forum about the Israeli Air Force chief commenting that his force will have 400% more capability at the end of 2014 than it had 2-3 years ago. All of that is being attained through integration of force multipliers and aircraft that can do a whole lot more in the air with precision attack. The situation with the PAF is not that different. As an example, each JF-17 that is inducted provides PAF with a 3 times more capable platform than the one its replacing. The doctrine is very quickly moving away from dedicated roles to multi/omni role capabilities across the spectrum for the PAF. With the existing force levels, the service (PAF) can do a whole lot more than it has been able to in the past. We have much greater threat awareness, much longer stand off attack capability and much better survivability on our aircraft. When seen as a whole, this is a very competent and effective capability.

Lastly, I would say, judging PAF's performance in light of the OBL episode alone perhaps misleads many. There are very many technical reasons for why the PAF was not there, but I know for a fact that in a force on force conflict, PAF remains as relevant as it has since the late 50s when the force started modernizing and came of age.

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## Kompromat

RAMPAGE said:


> What's with the fascination with J-31 ???
> 
> Why not jump in with the Koreans or the Turks. This way, there'll be maximum Pakistani input in our NG aircraft.



None of them have real experience or working prototypes of those jets so far nor would their projects be ready when we need them to be. We can and should join Turkey's TFX program as a study partner.

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## ziaulislam

dexter said:


> Nishan : Pakistan should get 1000 F-22 raptors , 200000 Leapord tanks , 50 aircraft carriers etc etc


I am pretty sure he doesnt exaggerate it this much....

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## think@best

Side-Winder said:


> Rafales aren't confirmed at all -- secondly those 180 Su-MKi aren't only for pakistan. there is a fleet bigger than indian in china.



Thanks for comments !

@Side-Winder we know, but if war happened or situation like BOMBAY TERROR ATTACK all will move towards us. My point was to maintain credible concrete balance of power between Pak-Ind ( Air Force only ) as we know we are fare behind from Indian Navy, Army and Airforce Inventory. 
If we maintain PAF with high tech fighter jets we will be able to counter IND force in all three category.


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## NALANDA

丶勿谓言之不预 said:


> Haha, you have to understand that India always like to compare with others, but most of the time, India is always smaller than others, especially China.




"丶勿谓言之不预 = भारतीय कि अग्रिम नहीं करते मत कहो = Indian do not say that do not advance "

What is the meaning of your profile name?


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## Side-Winder

think@best said:


> Thanks for comments !
> 
> @Side-Winder we know, but if war happened or situation like BOMBAY TERROR ATTACK all will move towards us. My point was to maintain credible concrete balance of power between Pak-Ind ( Air Force only ) as we know we are fare behind from Indian Navy, Army and Airforce Inventory.
> If we maintain PAF with high tech fighter jets we will be able to counter IND force in all three category.



Indians can't 'completely' evacuate all of their bases alongside china, even during war with pakistan.
India is a bigger economy with more resources than us. There will always be a technological and quantitative gap. Look at their mammoth defence budget compared to us.

We can't bring balance of power with 5 times less defence budget. But let me assure you, we are good enough to give them a bloody nose anyday!

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## MastanKhan

Side-Winder said:


> Indians can't 'completely' evacuate all of their bases alongside china, even during war with pakistan.
> India is a bigger economy with more resources than us. There will always be a technological and quantitative gap. Look at their mammoth defence budget compared to us.
> 
> We can't bring balance of power with 5 times less defence budget. But let me assure you, we are good enough to give them a bloody nose anyday!



Sir,

This pakistani concept of BLOODY NOSE need to be changed----. You know what happens to the girl who gives a bloody nose to the rapists----she is molested---raped---beaten the sh-it out of her---thrashed----smashed---you name it and she gets it----.

Brutality just begins after the bloody nose----it is just the tip of the iceberg---.

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## aliyusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> This pakistani concept of BLOODY NOSE need to be changed----. You know what happens to the girl who gives a bloody nose to the rapists----she is molested---raped---beaten the sh-it out of her---thrashed----smashed---you name it and she gets it----.
> 
> Brutality just begins after the bloody nose----it is just the tip of the iceberg---.



If bloody nose is taken as the context then you are spot on ... as usual.

But I don't think Pakistan Armed Forces are so feeble in their objectives and preparations.
Here in my opinion Bloody Nose = Significantly Unacceptable Level of Losses for the aggressor (i.e. India).
India is too big with too much resources at their disposal for Pakistan to hope to attain an outright conventional military victory.

But we can make it unfeasible / impractical / painful enough, in terms of material and manpower losses, thus forcing India to abstain from implementing any of its aggression oriented objectives regarding Pakistan.

In my opinion, Pakistan is still not 100% where it needs to be (conventional capability wise) but we are well on our way in getting there.

Just my humble 2 cents.

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> This pakistani concept of BLOODY NOSE need to be changed----. You know what happens to the girl who gives a bloody nose to the rapists----she is molested---raped---beaten the sh-it out of her---thrashed----smashed---you name it and she gets it----.
> 
> Brutality just begins after the bloody nose----it is just the tip of the iceberg---.


the concept is valid if you have nukes..well the rapist the woman if she has a bomb??..the purpose is to have enough conventional power to stop any surgical strikes and prolong a war to such a level that might risk a nuclear war forcing both parties to reconsider war...
having said that i think army has to change is attitude and allow most of the funding to go to PAF..even if it has to decrease it no.s slightly


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## MastanKhan

Sirs,

This bloody nose thing---there is no reason to make these stupid statements----. Have you children seen the Inoki / akram pehalwan kushti-----if not ask your parents----.

He used to brag the same things-----Inoki---in turn broke his arm and the rest is history---------.

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## aliyusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Sirs,
> 
> This bloody nose thing---there is no reason to make these stupid statements----. Have you children seen the Inoki / akram pehalwan kushti-----if not ask your parents----.
> 
> He used to brag the same things-----Inoki---in turn broke his arm and the rest is history---------.



Sorry our opinions seem stupid to you.
But with in a discussion forum everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
You are certainly entitled to yours.
Having such an uncivil tone in reply is certainly not what I would have expected from you.
By the way Inoki had held Akram in an arm lock and the Akram foolishly tried to power his way out and in the process had his shoulder dislocated.


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## MastanKhan

aliyusuf said:


> Sorry our opinions seem stupid to you.
> But with in a discussion forum everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
> You are certainly entitled to yours.
> Having such an uncivil tone in reply is certainly not what I would have expected from you.
> By the way Inoki had held Akram in an arm lock and the Akram foolishly tried to power his way out and in the process had his shoulder dislocated.


 
Hi,

You are back----it is not bear huinting season yet.

It was akram's bragging that was the more interesting part----he strutted around Inoki like you are doing---and when Inoki got him in the armhold-----aki ended up losing his limb----he was crying afterwards saying----JI PEHLaY US NaY MERI aaNKH MEIN UNGLI MaRI----PHIR US NaY MERa BaZOO TOR DaIa.

100 littar wi khaiy-----tay 100 ganday wi khaiy----hein ji phirrr uh


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## aliyusuf

MastanKhan said:


> ----he strutted around Inoki like you are doing---



To whom are u comparing Akram's neanderthal like bragging to?
You could have made your reply without the ... the phrase in quotation ....
Is it really in good spirit or taste? 
I fail to see where I have strutted anything?
I thought we were having a discussion here and everyone was entitled to post and discuss in a sober and amicable manner.
But phrases like "*You are back----it is not bear huinting season yet*" really reeks of a condescending mindset.
Well Sir this is the last time I am responding to you and I will not make the mistake of quoting to any of your posts again.

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## Basel

Aeronaut said:


> f my assessment is correct then, PAF would save up (good if more JFT, Mushak exports come along) to opt for project the 31001 instead of the J-10B/C.



PAF should not stick to J-31 only even if they want to go for Chinese 5th gen plane, even if we have to buy only 40 of 5th gen planes they should be equal or more advance then any thing IAF can had.


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## Last Samuri

> PAF should not stick to J-31 only even if they want to go for Chinese 5th gen plane, even if we have to buy only 40 of 5th gen planes they should be equal or more advance then any thing IAF can had.


Your Comment above Basel

Is stuff of fantasy

REASON BEING

Pakistan is not involved in J31
J31 and chinease technology despite making incredible strides is not so advanced that india could not get its hands on something superior and in far great numbers.

In other words

India has and is involved in PAK FA or FGFA for 144 fighters
India has been offered the F35 JSF and is stil under consideration for their NAVY for IAC VIKRANT potential deal sometime 2018.
india does and is involved with the highly advanced weapons industry of israel be it for AWACS radars or jammers and missles.

Finally BASEL you may have forgotton for very dollar or hundred dollars avaialble to pak military the indian military have $7 dollars od $700 dollars.

This scenario and handicap will not change Basel

But i,.m sure the purchase of 40 0r 50 J31 will enhance the PAF when it happens but dont expect india to sit there watrching doing nothing in response to this thgey will probably order 144 FGFA and 77 jsf F35 .

its called economic might


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## Kompromat

Last Samuri said:


> Your Comment above Basel
> 
> Is stuff of fantasy
> 
> REASON BEING
> 
> Pakistan is not involved in J31
> J31 and chinease technology despite making incredible strides is not so advanced that india could not get its hands on something superior and in far great numbers.
> 
> In other words
> 
> India has and is involved in PAK FA or FGFA for 144 fighters
> India has been offered the F35 JSF and is stil under consideration for their NAVY for IAC VIKRANT potential deal sometime 2018.
> india does and is involved with the highly advanced weapons industry of israel be it for AWACS radars or jammers and missles.
> 
> Finally BASEL you may have forgotton for very dollar or hundred dollars avaialble to pak military the indian military have $7 dollars od $700 dollars.
> 
> This scenario and handicap will not change Basel
> 
> But i,.m sure the purchase of 40 0r 50 J31 will enhance the PAF when it happens but dont expect india to sit there watrching doing nothing in response to this thgey will probably order 144 FGFA and 77 jsf F35 .
> 
> its called economic might




Pakistan has one enemy, India has several. It has to deal with China, Pakistan, Bangladesh and very soon the GCC.

We are all too happy seeing India spend money on fancy military gear while millions of Indians starve.

Our goal isn't to invade and capture India but to defend ourselves.

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## TOPGUN

You sure you are not Storm force or related to him ? sorry for being off topic ... and as others said here Pakistan's only interest is to defends it's self simply which it has been doing very well meaning keeping the enemy at bay. Best thing for botth nations is to look towards friendship and peace playing a fantasy warrior on line for india is baseless think about it.




Last Samuri said:


> Your Comment above Basel
> 
> Is stuff of fantasy
> 
> REASON BEING
> 
> Pakistan is not involved in J31
> J31 and chinease technology despite making incredible strides is not so advanced that india could not get its hands on something superior and in far great numbers.
> 
> In other words
> 
> India has and is involved in PAK FA or FGFA for 144 fighters
> India has been offered the F35 JSF and is stil under consideration for their NAVY for IAC VIKRANT potential deal sometime 2018.
> india does and is involved with the highly advanced weapons industry of israel be it for AWACS radars or jammers and missles.
> 
> Finally BASEL you may have forgotton for very dollar or hundred dollars avaialble to pak military the indian military have $7 dollars od $700 dollars.
> 
> This scenario and handicap will not change Basel
> 
> But i,.m sure the purchase of 40 0r 50 J31 will enhance the PAF when it happens but dont expect india to sit there watrching doing nothing in response to this thgey will probably order 144 FGFA and 77 jsf F35 .
> 
> its called economic might

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## Donatello

Last Samuri said:


> Your Comment above Basel
> 
> Is stuff of fantasy
> 
> REASON BEING
> 
> Pakistan is not involved in J31
> J31 and chinease technology despite making incredible strides is not so advanced that india could not get its hands on something superior and in far great numbers.
> 
> In other words
> 
> India has and is involved in PAK FA or FGFA for 144 fighters
> India has been offered the F35 JSF and is stil under consideration for their NAVY for IAC VIKRANT potential deal sometime 2018.
> india does and is involved with the highly advanced weapons industry of israel be it for AWACS radars or jammers and missles.
> 
> Finally BASEL you may have forgotton for very dollar or hundred dollars avaialble to pak military the indian military have $7 dollars od $700 dollars.
> 
> This scenario and handicap will not change Basel
> 
> But i,.m sure the purchase of 40 0r 50 J31 will enhance the PAF when it happens but dont expect india to sit there watrching doing nothing in response to this thgey will probably order 144 FGFA and 77 jsf F35 .
> 
> its called economic might




Economic might, my a**. What happened to LCA and Rafale aquisition? While you were boasting about economy and all non-sense, Pakistan has been able to slowly but surely sharpen it's teeth, both in the Army and Airforce. Navy will get the required submarines for sure. The FGFA you are talking about is just under wraps. Apparently when Russia came out with the stealth fighter with no known capabilities, you guys were jumping up and down. It will take a decade before you get anything in your hand that is a full 5Gen plane. If US sells JSF to India it will seriously unbalance the power in the region and China will have no option but to level it back up. So don't day dream. Indians like you have been harping about MMRCA for the last 6 years. The contract is still to be signed and the first planes not due at least for another 2 years. So please keep this BS of yours to yourself and for your low IQ bharat forums.

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## Kompromat

Guys, lets not feed the trolls. Lets get back to the topic.

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## Kompromat

*No more off-topics*

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## Storm Force

Since this thread is labelled no j10.and lets focus on j31 can somebody please give us some hard evidence on Pakistani intentions to buy this plane.

When and for how much and more importantly any details or specs of this j31.


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## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> Since this thread is labelled no j10.and lets focus on j31 can somebody please give us some hard evidence on Pakistani intentions to buy this plane.
> 
> When and for how much and more importantly any details or specs of this j31.



Its under serious consideration. We'll know when the intent is presented. No such thing exists for now.


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## Storm Force

> Its under serious consideration. We'll know when the intent is presented. No such thing exists for now.


 
Its bit pointless or at the very least PREMATURE

A bit like the indians opening a thread about buying F35 Lightening


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## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> Its bit pointless or at the very least PREMATURE
> 
> A bit like the indians opening a thread about buying F35 Lightening



You can think whatever you want. This thread is based on an AFM interview. Go and troll somewhere else.

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## HAIDER

Now the embargo lifted , Pakistan will get J10. If Russian didn't make any special provision for AL31 for Pakistani J10.

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## Fahad Khan 2

We should save money from not going to J-10 it does not give us too much or will not be a game changer already we have JF-17 which will be equal or little less evolved along J-10....
We can go for license production of J-31 if not JV....


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## pursuit of happiness

Aeronaut said:


> Pakistan has one enemy, India has several. It has to deal with China, Pakistan, Bangladesh and very soon the GCC.
> 
> We are all too happy seeing India spend money on fancy military gear while millions of Indians starve.
> 
> Our goal isn't to invade and capture India but to defend ourselves.


--
pak has one enemy .. declared by them only .. attacked by them only in 48,65,71,99 
india has only few adversaries pak ..
china is not fool to invite indias troble .. any negative escalation will invite USA .. and japan, india, and other south east county together..
GCC -- it seems either you are ignorant of world politics and comfortably not accepting reality as always 

Our goal isn't to invade you did it before as mentioned above 
and capture India .. do you think you can capture india ? ever ?
defend ourselves... you have right to do so...


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## Storm Force

The French and Dassult are all over india like rash inching their way to a massive deal

MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months - The Times of India

Rafale F3 is currently in india going through annual excerises with the IAF Garunda v started june 2nd.

Modi has made this a top a top priority and 126 Rafale are coming definitely

*I ASK AGAIN *

272 SU30MKI by 2018
*Rafale deal signed in 3 months ( the best 4th generation fighter in the world)*

WILL YOU GUYS NOW WAIT FOR J31 maybe a decade away for PLAAF and 15 years away for export

OR

*REACTIVATE THE J10 deal for fighters now.*

When the thread was started a few weeks ago it seemed a good idea. to wait for J31

_in 3 months time when dassult & HAL are toasting a $20 billion deal wil it stil seem a wise move ???_

India to seal deal for Rafale jets within three months - paper| Reuters

Reuters also suggesting its a done deal to be annouced in 3 months.

Even if you wanted the J10 how quickly could you find the funds to obtain them.

will 40 be enough to tackle 126 rafale F3

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## illusion8

5th gen planes for PAF is a far stretch.

other than the F22 being the only 5th gen, the rest of the programs will take their own sweet time to mature.

In other words if what the interview says is true then - PAF will look to add up on its refurbished F16 inventory and JF17 for a while.

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## Secret Service

Storm Force said:


> The French and Dassult are all over india like rash inching their way to a massive deal
> 
> MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months - The Times of India
> 
> Rafale F3 is currently in india going through annual excerises with the IAF Garunda v started june 2nd.
> 
> Modi has made this a top a top priority and 126 Rafale are coming definitely
> 
> *I ASK AGAIN *
> 
> 272 SU30MKI by 2018
> *Rafale deal signed in 3 months ( the best 4th generation fighter in the world)*
> 
> WILL YOU GUYS NOW WAIT FOR J31 maybe a decade away for PLAAF and 15 years away for export
> 
> OR
> 
> *REACTIVATE THE J10 deal for fighters now.*
> 
> When the thread was started a few weeks ago it seemed a good idea. to wait for J31
> 
> _in 3 months time when dassult & HAL are toasting a $20 billion deal wil it stil seem a wise move ???_
> 
> India to seal deal for Rafale jets within three months - paper| Reuters
> 
> Reuters also suggesting its a done deal to be annouced in 3 months.
> 
> Even if you wanted the J10 how quickly could you find the funds to obtain them.
> 
> will 40 be enough to tackle 126 rafale F3



i think PAF has made their decision by taking all these facts under consideration which you mentioned . i think a large airforce requires lots for resources and money to maintain ,so i would be wise for PAF to buy more upgraded F 16s couple with JF 17s instead of j 10 which would be new experience for our pilots... there is no doubt IAF is becoming big threat to Pakistan with induction of Rafales and i strongly believe that PAF will find some way to counter this threat in coming years..


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## pursuit of happiness

secretservice said:


> i think PAF has made their decision by taking all these facts under consideration which you mentioned . i think a large airforce requires lots for resources and money to maintain ,so i would be wise for PAF to buy more upgraded F 16s couple with JF 17s instead of j 10 which would be new experience for our pilots... there is no doubt IAF is becoming big threat to Pakistan with induction of Rafales and i strongly believe that PAF will find some way to counter this threat in coming years..


--
everytime for evrey machine (Mki, Rafael, ,pak fa ) f16 and jf17 cant be be answer with..
f16 is good but is it lethal against rafael with number ..
dont bring china in it that half of sqd need there or they will attack
if china come in in indo -pak its open invitation to USA..and other anti china force to join india ...
chinese are not emotional like pak
if china had there kargil pak may have helped them but did china did the same ?
so wake up for reality
your only option is china but they are not helping it seems


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## ziaulislam

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> everytime for evrey machine (Mki, Rafael, ,pak fa ) f16 and jf17 cant be be answer with..
> f16 is good but is it lethal against rafael with number ..
> dont bring china in it that half of sqd need there or they will attack
> if china come in in indo -pak its open invitation to USA..and other anti china force to join india ...
> chinese are not emotional like pak
> if china had there kargil pak may have helped them but did china did the same ?
> so wake up for reality
> your only option is china but they are not helping it seems



nuclear thing has changed the whole game both india and pakistan know this, so dont expect anything like what you are dreaming..
there will be no all out war,PAF only needs to have sufficient power to avoid any surgical strikes and by maintaing 1/3--1/4 to strength to IAF, it can do so.


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## pursuit of happiness

ziaulislam said:


> nuclear thing has changed the whole game both india and pakistan know this, so dont expect anything like what you are dreaming..
> there will be no all out war,PAF only needs to have sufficient power to avoid any surgical strikes and by maintaing 1/3--1/4 to strength to IAF, it can do so.


--
is nuclaer is topic here..
why pak is so love with nuclear..
why dont you understand.. 
if you ever come close to nuclear button.. china and usa will allow you to press it..?
china will not stake there future for pak madness ... their business is there religion.. and everything.. 
even if you think you nuke india we have huge landmass with 2nd strike capability .. you have it?
you can nuke part of india..
we can nuke the whole pak from world..
we dont want to do any surgical strike till you behave 
so be in limits dear ..
when in jungle ..dont mess with tigers ..


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## tarrar

Well now A C Khalid will have to rethink on what he said. Mirage are very old & needs to replaced or we are going to see more crashes. J10B are still the right choice to replace the old aging Mirage fleet.



khanboy007 said:


> IMO we should be looking onto a 5th gen fighter by the next 4 years......we should never ever mistake ourselves by keeping only india in sight and present comparisons against it.....
> 
> it should be twin engined this time
> 
> at this point of time as turkey is in for some 100 F-35's we can also opt for their F-16's
> 
> a stealth fighter like the J-XX could be an option too.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China  J-XX Stealth Jets
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/j-xx-5th-generation-fighter-china.5119/



Well this is what Chinese are testing at the moment.




What you have posted is some CGI, but it is highly likely that J20 will keep changing in shape & design in its trials & the shape & design which J20 originally started from will change for sure.


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## Secret Service

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> everytime for evrey machine (Mki, Rafael, ,pak fa ) f16 and jf17 cant be be answer with..
> f16 is good but is it lethal against rafael with number ..
> dont bring china in it that half of sqd need there or they will attack
> if china come in in indo -pak its open invitation to USA..and other anti china force to join india ...
> chinese are not emotional like pak
> if china had there kargil pak may have helped them but did china did the same ?
> so wake up for reality
> your only option is china but they are not helping it seems




what is the point of making all these statements...


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## Donatello

pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> is nuclaer is topic here..
> why pak is so love with nuclear..
> why dont you understand..
> if you ever come close to nuclear button.. china and usa will allow you to press it..?
> china will not stake there future for pak madness ... their business is there religion.. and everything..
> even if you think you nuke india we have huge landmass with 2nd strike capability .. you have it?
> you can nuke part of india..
> we can nuke the whole pak from world..
> we dont want to do any surgical strike till you behave
> so be in limits dear ..
> when in jungle ..dont mess with tigers ..




When in jungle don't mess with tigers? Bring it on!


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## pursuit of happiness

Donatello said:


> When in jungle don't mess with tigers? Bring it on!


--
then after dont go to USA crying river .. Save us ....


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## slapshot

illusion8 said:


> 5th gen planes for PAF is a far stretch.
> 
> other than the F22 being the only 5th gen, the rest of the programs will take their own sweet time to mature.
> 
> In other words if what the interview says is true then - PAF will look to add up on its refurbished F16 inventory and JF17 for a while.


I believe that all this talk about 5th gen fighters is overrated  So far the only known true 5th gen fighter is F22 and that too never saw the real action. Americans are enjoying the upper hand by staying ahead of the rest in tech field. By the time we will see different 5th gen fighters we will also see advancements in counter technologies. I don't think so significance of 4.5 gen fighters going anywhere in next decade or two. If our economy allows us to spend some funds on the induction of new platform we should try to grab some air superiority jet of 4.5 gen. I heard PAF really liked Euro fighter so maybe we should get it when have some money

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## Last Samuri

Slapshot the eurofighter cost is six times the price of a thunder and three times the cost of a block 52 or j10 .

For this reason alone paf wil never buy both the typhoon or the Rafale. Or in deed the f35 lightening.

At this stage even the j31 may be way beyond the budget you guys wil have. On average it costs three times ad much to fly one hour in a fifth gen fighter than s f16 falcon


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## Kompromat

Last Samuri said:


> Slapshot the eurofighter cost is six times the price of a thunder and three times the cost of a block 52 or j10 .
> 
> For this reason alone paf wil never buy both the typhoon or the Rafale. Or in deed the f35 lightening.
> 
> At this stage even the j31 may be way beyond the budget you guys wil have. On average it costs three times ad much to fly one hour in a fifth gen fighter than s f16 falcon



PAF won't have a 5th gen platform in large numbers. A couple of squadrons will do the trick.

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## danger007

Aeronaut said:


> Pakistan has one enemy, India has several. It has to deal with China, Pakistan, Bangladesh and very soon the GCC.
> 
> We are all too happy seeing India spend money on fancy military gear while millions of Indians starve.
> 
> Our goal isn't to invade and capture India but to defend ourselves.


GCC? ?? HOW ,WHY WOULD THEY LL BECOME OUR ADVERSARIES. FOR PAKISTAN


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## Kompromat

danger007 said:


> GCC? ?? HOW ,WHY WOULD THEY LL BECOME OUR ADVERSARIES. FOR PAKISTAN



GCC sees India as a threat especially in naval theater.

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## danger007

Aeronaut said:


> GCC sees India as a threat especially in naval theater.



lol... that is we to us.. We never know GCC feels threatened by IN... We don't have territorial disputes ...

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## slapshot

Last Samuri said:


> Slapshot the eurofighter cost is six times the price of a thunder and three times the cost of a block 52 or j10 .
> 
> For this reason alone paf wil never buy both the typhoon or the Rafale. Or in deed the f35 lightening.
> 
> At this stage even the j31 may be way beyond the budget you guys wil have. On average it costs three times ad much to fly one hour in a fifth gen fighter than s f16 falcon


Price is not a permanent problem  We have bad Economy now but it won't be forever. We had the money and option to buy Euro Fighter back in 2005 but then earthquake happened. We don't need them in large number as Areonaut said though he was referring to 5th gen platform.


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## ziaulislam

Last Samuri said:


> Slapshot the eurofighter cost is six times the price of a thunder and three times the cost of a block 52 or j10 .
> 
> For this reason alone paf wil never buy both the typhoon or the Rafale. Or in deed the f35 lightening.
> 
> At this stage even the j31 may be way beyond the budget you guys wil have. On average it costs three times ad much to fly one hour in a fifth gen fighter than s f16 falcon


A New falcon cost around 90 million(in 2007-09) not three Times less than eurofighter.
J-31 or any low end Chinese fifth gen will cost around 80-90million Max since f-35 is around 150million for export


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## pursuit of happiness

Aeronaut said:


> GCC sees India as a threat especially in naval theater.


--
you have good sense of humor...
any links to prove if its not a joke

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## pursuit of happiness

Aeronaut said:


> GCC sees India as a threat especially in naval theater.


--
India-GCC ties can boost regional stability | GulfNews.com
The GCC states currently account for at least 50 per cent of India’s oil imports, while Qatar is India’s largest gas supplier. Today, the GCC is India’s largest trading partner with an estimated $120 billion (Dh441.36 billion) worth of trade. India is currently the second-most populous country in the world after China and while its population continues to grow along with its immense market, so too will India’s need to maintain a stable, consistent and increasing supply of energy. This will further enhance its partnership with the GCC.


EMBASSY OF INDIA, RIYADH



slapshot said:


> Price is not a permanent problem  We have bad Economy now but it won't be forever. We had the money and option to buy Euro Fighter back in 2005 but then earthquake happened. We don't need them in large number as Areonaut said though he was referring to 5th gen platform.


--
price was the problem 
PAF rejected rafael before

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## Storm Force

]Zaiulislam .

Re Your Comment


> A New falcon cost around 90 million(in 2007-09) not three Times less than eurofighter.
> J-31 or any low end Chinese fifth gen will cost around 80-90million Max since f-35 is around 150million for export


 
The only Falcon costing $80m is the block 60 or was the block70 offered to india.
The falcons PAF are buying are far far cheaper.

J31 does not exist as a fighter its just a prototype. YOU can only speculate on its eventual pricve in 10 years time.
More importantly a low end J31 = LOW END technology.

You aim to fight a hi end rafale or fgfa both costing $100m+ with low end chinease fighter . AND even then outnumbered 3-1.

Not convinced with this strategy.


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## Side-Winder

I just tried to sum it up! 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152240681667663

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## Storm Force

Sidewinder

REALLY NICE VEDIO

GREAT MUSIC

WHERE FROM whats it called PLEASE


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## slapshot

secretservice said:


> what is the point of making all these statements...


stupidity has no limits. increase your ignore counter

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A bird in hand is worth 2 in Bush .. is the saying !!!







36 J10B , in hand is better then "fictional 5th generation" plane that we will not even get close to till 2040

Very disappointed with the news

Change this AC Khalid guy , and lets bring someone who wants to increase our air power

Really I mean its not like we have option of 100 F16 or 30 F-35 being offered to us , and his comments about not needing J10B is not appropriate , sorry I waited 4 years for J10B , since it was announced and I do not like this AC Khalid fella due to this decision

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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> ]Zaiulislam .
> 
> Re Your Comment
> 
> 
> The only Falcon costing $80m is the block 60 or was the block70 offered to india.
> The falcons PAF are buying are far far cheaper.
> 
> J31 does not exist as a fighter its just a prototype. YOU can only speculate on its eventual pricve in 10 years time.
> More importantly a low end J31 = LOW END technology.
> 
> You aim to fight a hi end rafale or fgfa both costing $100m+ with low end chinease fighter . AND even then outnumbered 3-1.
> 
> Not convinced with this strategy.


I am not going to go in discussion with you, just go on and check all the deals signed regarding f-16s, for new customer they have been well above 100mil due to parts and training for paf it was around 80 mil back in 2007(18for1.4 billion)

Now j-31or what ever Chinese fifth gen comes into mass production will be 1/2-2/3 the price of f-35
If f-35 is priced at 120-150 million based upon figures from latest production series its obvious that chinese fifth gen will cost around 80-100 million ...

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## Indus Falcon

ziaulislam said:


> I am not going to go in discussion with you, just go on and check all the deals signed regarding f-16s, for new customer they have been well above 100mil due to parts and training for paf it was around 80 mil back in 2007(18for1.4 billion)
> 
> Now j-31or what ever Chinese fifth gen comes into mass production will be 1/2-2/3 the price of f-35
> If f-35 is priced at 120-150 million based upon figures from latest production series its obvious that chinese fifth gen will cost around 80-100 million ...


You may not be very far off


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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> Zia RE
> 
> If your telling me that F16/52 costs $100m each. ITS A RIP OFF
> Single engined fighter
> Mechanical scanning radar
> RCS way higher than euro cannards like Gripen/rafale/typhoon
> 
> AND YOU GUYS PAID $100M
> 
> When J10B will cost $40m with guranteed spares/support in a war with IAF
> 
> ALL OF A SUDDEN the latest flankers that IAF are inducting soon (super mki with AESA radar @ $75m) each look a bargin
> Even the RAFALE deal atr $120m each looks cheap
> 
> CANCELLING J10 in favor of F16 all of sudden zia does not look like the bargin some guys suggested.
> 
> OR
> 
> THE PAF realise the chinease fighters & technology is not as good as the F16 including the mighty J10


thats because second hand f-16 with mid life upgrade will cost less than j-10.
dont look at another engines only, look at thrust too, there isnt much difference.
lastly, all those countries who brought them arent so stupid..
rafale will cost around 180 million so it seems even expensive then the f-35


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## Luftwaffe

Storm Force said:


> Zia RE
> 
> If your telling me that F16/52 costs $100m each. ITS A RIP OFF
> Single engined fighter
> Mechanical scanning radar
> RCS way higher than euro cannards like Gripen/rafale/typhoon
> 
> AND YOU GUYS PAID $100M
> 
> When J10B will cost $40m with guranteed spares/support in a war with IAF
> 
> ALL OF A SUDDEN the latest flankers that IAF are inducting soon (super mki with AESA radar @ $75m) each look a bargin
> Even the RAFALE deal atr $120m each looks cheap
> 
> CANCELLING J10 in favor of F16 all of sudden zia does not look like the bargin some guys suggested.
> 
> OR THE PAF realise the chinease fighters & technology is not as good as the F16 including the mighty J10



@Oscar, what is going on why is this chap repeating things over and over again has it not been discussed, he has that same Nishan syndrome.

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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> @Oscar, what is going on why is this chap repeating things over and over again has it not been discussed, he has that same Nishan syndrome.



Worse, his is terminal.
Banned from thread.


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## slapshot

Luftwaffe said:


> @Oscar, what is going on why is this chap repeating things over and over again has it not been discussed, he has that same Nishan syndrome.


@Oscar Nishanified him


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We should not even get any planes at all (skip F16) lets just get the NASA space shuttle. Skip the 5th generation lets go directly to 6th Generation


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## monitor

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> A bird in hand is worth 2 in Bush .. is the saying !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 36 J10B , in hand is better then "fictional 5th generation" plane that we will not even get close to till 2040
> 
> Very disappointed with the news
> 
> Change this AC Khalid guy , and lets bring someone who wants to increase our air power
> 
> Really I mean its not like we have option of 100 F16 or 30 F-35 being offered to us , and his comments about not needing J10B is not appropriate , sorry I waited 4 years for J10B , since it was announced and I do not like this AC Khalid fella due to this decision





Your enemy is getting fifth generation fighter by 2020~ so you can"t wait for 2040 for ''fictional fifth generation fighter '' which already flying though would take time getting ready .
your F-16 fleet is now stand at 76 can easily made 100 plus with cheap second hand F-16 with MLU along with some more new fighter which will give you a proven platform .
you waited 4 years for a 4.5+ fighter so wait few more year to get a whole new generation of fighter and mature your own baby with more feature to counter the current threat .

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well . we can boost J10B quickly from 36 planes to 90 planes in 2 years what are chances of us getting F16 , in such high numbers ? 

Complete short sightedness from Mr Khalid , F16 , all there is in world , time to move on and diversify

JF17 Thunder + J10B + F16

And retire other planes that are older in due course


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## 小懒丶

F-16太贵了..

F-16 is too expensive..isn't it?


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## M Babarkhan afridi

We shall focus on five generation fighter and helecopters


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## Viper0011.

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well . we can boost J10B quickly from 36 planes to 90 planes in 2 years what are chances of us getting F16 , in such high numbers ?
> 
> Complete short sightedness from Mr Khalid , F16 , all there is in world , time to move on and diversify



Actually, they have a well thought out plan. The only caveat is what if there was a war with India until the plan completes (which I don't think there will be anyways).
The JFT although lifts smaller payload than J-10, has the same (made smaller) tech like the J-10. So you are spending so much money to just get a bigger size plane to lift heavier payloads.
However, if the economy grows at 4% stead (granted this political drama ends and IK can go home), after 3 years, the economy would've grown 12%, means at the LEAST an additional 1-2 Billion USD easily available for the air force for R&D / new projects. So knowing this, I'd expect either a JV for a medium 5th Gen semi-stealth platform or infusion of money into the J-31 platform. OR, use the same project, increase airframes size similar to J-10, make it stealthier and continue on. The machinery being used for the JFT can be reconfigured to build a larger airframe. 
So you'll go from JFT block I and II to may be block III being a larger plane (similar to F-16 Block 52 or 60 which is a newer plane for all intensive purposes) or even introduce a JFS (Joint Fighter Stealth) project? But there is clear rational behind it and its smarter. The PAF wants to procure PAkFa's answers in numbers starting in the next 5 years. Well thought ou

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think the J10B is a plan that is more stronger in Air-Air combat , its more agile due to its design and can carry a larger load of Air-Air Missiles load

This can certainly mean that it can offer a good Air Superiority role from Pakistan's prespective.

We could boost the numbers from 36 Planes to 150 planes with China and have full authority to modify the planes with new components

So J10B could be a great asset to our forces.

Pakistani Forces should be in much better shape with 75 F16 C/D and 75 J10B , as Air Superiority roles and 180 JF17 Thunders for 3 Roles Air-Ground-Sea

With gradual Phase out of Mirage

We don't have a need to consider Stealth presently , our focus should be to reinforce our Main Airforce fleet with most updates planes


Reference: Wikipedia
*J-10B*: An upgraded variant of the J-10 with new technologies.[46] Numerous images of a new J-10 variant have surfaced, showing a prototype J-10 modified with increased radar absorbent material, next generation of integrated EW suite, increased composites which reduces the weight by one ton, new generation avionics, MAW, a diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI), an infra-red search and track (IRST) sensor, modified vertical stabiliser and wings, ventral fins, housings fitted under the wings, upgraded WS-10B engine, next generation of solid-state integrated electronics, and a modified nose with an AESA radar.[47][48] It had its first flight in December 2008. Full Production of J-10B had started with first J-10B appearing on production line on July 2013

Maximum Take off weight (42,500 lb) (*More missiles and bombs*)
Mach 2.2 at altitude (Perhaps undisclosed)
*Hardpoints: 11 in total (3 extra air-air missiles?)*



vs JF17 Thunder
*Hardpoints:* 7
*Max. takeoff weight:* 12,383 kg (27,300 lb)
*Hardpoints: 7*

5 J10B could be in air with *55 missiles loaded vs 35 Missile *on 5 JF17 Thunders so , as you can see the J10B could be in air longer taking on enemy fighters much longer with out needing to reload


Plues AESA is already being integrated in J10B , which makes it tier 1 craft for Air to Air missions


*The thunder is great for Pakistani Airforce , but we should have 2 platforms that we can increase in capacity with out restrictions*

*We could get TOT for J10B in future which is not possible for F16 C/D platform which is its limitation that we can't increase its capabilities beyond a limited level*


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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well . we can boost J10B quickly from 36 planes to 90 planes in 2 years what are chances of us getting F16 , in such high numbers ?
> 
> Complete short sightedness from Mr Khalid , F16 , all there is in world , time to move on and diversify
> 
> JF17 Thunder + J10B + F16
> 
> And retire other planes that are older in due course


I agree but China is now testing J-10c and we should get at least 72 J-10 C and other jets and try to increase number off F-16


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The F16 platform is dieing out there are some enhancements on the platform which make it relevant but these technologies are not available to us so it presents a long term risk

But sure if you can negotiate a TOT for F16 C/D level , with licence production of AESA sure its a wonderful platform, F16 is a great plane for its time and some upgrades are nice but we don't get the top of line upgrades in time most of time

But that will not happen so in that case the J10B plateform is a better alternative

It offers good payload , more Air-Air engagement capabilities and we have no upper limit on number of jets we can purchase

The JF17 Thunder , meanwhile evolves into block 2 / Block 3 to offer more solid support role with Multi Role focus


Otherwise if we can get a deal like F-16IN , which was offered to India and get that , then yes lets keep adding more F16 till numbers hit 200


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## The SC

*Chinese J-31 stealth fighter for global market, Pakistan likely customer *




*Two weeks after China’s new J-31 stealth fighter made its debut flight on Oct 31, it will be officially acknowledged with a mock-up of the aircraft in Airshow China, the Beijing-endorsed air show that opens in Zhuhai, China on Tuesday. With China’s official media reporting that the J-31 will be sold to overseas customers, Indian analysts say that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) might be one of the earliest customers of the J-31.*
*The English-language newspaper Global Times, which is owned by the Communist Party of China (CPC) cites Bai Wei, former editor of the Aviation World Monthly as saying, “Currently the only fifth generation fighter available for sale is the F-35 by the US. The ‘J-31’ will offer an alternative for non-traditional allies of the US.”*
*The leakage of photos of the J-31 debut flight, which analysts regard as deliberate, had triggered speculation that the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) had built that aircraft for the international market, creating a rival for Lockheed Martin’s long delayed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Aviation experts assess that the J-31 would also need 7-10 years to enter operational service*
*Indian analysts, including Pushpindar Singh of the Society for Aerospace Studies, point out that the PAF’s preference for Chinese fighter aircraft make it likely that it would acquire the J-31 as soon as the fighter is ready for operational service.*
*“Already, the backbone of the PAF is made up of Chinese fighters like the JF-17 Thunder, the J-10 and the F-7. It is close to certain that Pakistan would also opt for at least two squadrons of the J-31, given that the US is unlikely to allow it into the F-35 partnership,” says Pushpindar Singh.*
*Indian analysts believe the PAF will emerge as a 23-squadron air force by 2020, with its backbone consisting of 12-13 squadrons of the JF-17 light fighter. While the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) have ostensibly developed the JF-17 jointly, analysts believe that most of the development was done by CAC. The PAF already operates four squadrons of the JF-17, which is part-built in Pakistan and China.*
*In 2020, the PAF would also have four squadrons of Lockheed Martin F-16s, two squadrons of the J-10 from CAC, and three squadrons of older Chinese F-7TGs.*
*The close relationship between the PLAAF and the PAF is evident from the presence at the Zhuhai Air Show of three PAF JF-17 fighters, which will be flying displays during the show.*
*Meanwhile, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is currently down to 34 squadrons, with which it must defend both the Pakistan and the China borders. By 2017, the fourteen IAF squadrons that fly MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters would also have been disbanded, and replaced by just 4 new squadrons of Sukhoi-30MKI fighters.
“With the procurement of the Dassault Rafale fighter also running late, the IAF will be facing what can only be described as a crisis in 2017,” says Pushpindar Singh.

Airshow China will also feature, for the first time ever, China’s new WZ-10 attack helicopter, which will be capable of flying anti-tank and anti-aircraft missions, fielding a payload of rockets, missiles and a rapid-fire cannon. Like in every China-built fighter aircraft, the five-tonne helicopter will be powered by a foreign engine.*
*The air show at Zhuhai will also feature a new Chinese long-range ground-to-air missile called the FD-2000.*

*Broadsword: Chinese J-31 stealth fighter for global market, Pakistan likely customer*


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## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> lol... that is we to us.. We never know GCC feels threatened by IN... We don't have territorial disputes ...



For starters, you should see posts here by your countrymen as to how much they hate Islam, Saudis, etc. Even in discussions now a days, you guys are becoming very assertive. So its natural that the readers from the GCC are aware of the stance and they are getting ready to potentially be at odds at some point. Just like I've noticed it, I am sure others have too. It's not rocket science, you just have to read posts and understand the bottom end mentality....


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think realistically , we are far away from Stealth platform and its not needed for us immediately we have other national security concerns , 15 F16 flying low to ground can penetrate into India with out being detected if needed and do what is needed to be done and other stuff can be handled by Missiles which we have plenty 

Stealth is perhaps not as crucial as to having a platform that has ample missiles on it


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## Viper0011.

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The F16 platform is dieing out there are some enhancements on the platform which make it relevant but these technologies are not available to us so it presents a long term risk
> The JF17 Thunder , meanwhile evolves into block 2 / Block 3 to offer more solid support role with Multi Role focus



I think (and future will tell) the direction for the PAF is -16's in numbers with primary focus being BVR-able and block 40+. Plus, to replace aging Mirages, either -16's or used Mirages from ME countries. JFT of course will finish up to 200-250 and will become the mainstay jet.
Next, hopefully the political turmoil will finish soon, they'll get a few billion for investment and will go for J-31 with some technology build internally. I'd hope that with a few billions, may be a new project as JFT Block III (a new airframe and stealthy one) could be started with similar arrangement like the JFT (part China-Part Pakistan build). That would make a lot of sense. It may not be a twin engined J-31, it may be a single engine cousin of it but still bigger than JFT, offering more payload (like what was going to be offered by J-10 C but add stealth to it and more advance avionics)

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The stealth platform is not available untill China gets at least 30-100 planes in their inventory and that is realiistically will not happen immediately


J-31 won't be in Pakistani colors at least till 2022-2025

J10B , is good option to have unrestricted capable Air-Air , specific Air-Air role

F16 IN , renamed to F16 PK, model would be good consideration as well provided we get TOT offer. Licence to keep at least 200 planes in inventories and replace older ones with new ones at will to maximum 200 jets


Stealth is far away , we need platform that solidify Air -Air engagements

We need 180-200 planes that need replacement with newer platforms, 36 J10B would have certainly filled some gaps in this area


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## Lil Mathew

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The stealth platform is not available untill China gets at least 30-100 planes in their inventory and that is realiistically will not happen immediately
> 
> 
> J-31 won't be in Pakistani colors at least till 2022-2025
> 
> J10B , is good option to have unrestricted capable Air-Air , specific Air-Air role
> 
> F16 IN , renamed to F16 PK, model would be good consideration as well provided we get TOT offer. Licence to keep at least 200 planes in inventories and replace older ones with new ones at will to maximum 200 jets
> 
> 
> Stealth is far away , we need platform that solidify Air -Air engagements
> 
> We need 180-200 planes that need replacement with newer platforms, 36 J10B would have certainly filled some gaps in this area


Air commodore said concentrate on fifth gen means concentrate your resources for fifth gen.. He definitely pointing out the lack of funds available for a new platform now( not only for procurement but also for supporting and maintaining that)..
PAF budget is only $1.5 billion (against IAF's $ 9 billion). Maintaining such a big force with $1.5 billion itself is a miracle as majority of the fleet are ageing (other than jft).. Man power wise also PAF is a big force.. Their wages,training,transportation, stores, wepons etc. itself costs very high per annum..
So with $1.5 billion you can't afford a new platform..
So as fifth gen aircraft is inevitable in next decade, concentrate on that., that time increase def budget 2-3 times (it needs good economic growth for next 5-10 years)..


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## M Babarkhan afridi



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## zaid butt

M Babarkhan afridi said:


> View attachment 158940



block 2 is better 
looks great


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## The SC

M Babarkhan afridi said:


> View attachment 158940


It is photoshoped but I'd like to see it like that with an AESA radar.
It looks quite realistic andpowerful ... I have posted the Picture in many different threads before. I like the look of it.


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## Viking 63

Block-2 looks good but I would still go for 3-4 Squardons of J-10B.

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## Ray_of_Hope

Viking 63 said:


> Block-2 looks good but I would still go for 3-4 Squardons of J-10B.


FC 20 deal is now pretty dead


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## Super Falcon

Than mr khalid why u bought f 16 from jordan yes we need new tech but dont forget we dont need single engine jet which we have we need twin engine jet worlds 80 percent fighter jets are twin engine move forward paf

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## salman-1

FC-20 is still on cards with PAF , as no easy deals for F-16 is available. Now as Russian's have agreed to sell RD-93. Mi-35 directly to Pakistan. There might also be window for AL31F engines for FC-20's. In one News PAF has again given hint of reconsidering J-10 is due to this fact. In Past many of our Air force personnel have told media to induct J-10 in 2014-15 was due to the fact, they hoped china would ready WS-10 by that time. As Russian had not cleared re export of their AL-31F for Pakistan. Now as India buying Rafael for their AF Russian's have on many occasions replied for exporting hardware to Pakistan. Its now official from them. 

PAF must fill gap with india having at least 54+4 dual seater as planned before.


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## zaid butt

salman-1 said:


> FC-20 is still on cards with PAF , as no easy deals for F-16 is available. Now as Russian's have agreed to sell RD-93. Mi-35 directly to Pakistan. There might also be window for AL31F engines for FC-20's. In one News PAF has again given hint of reconsidering J-10 is due to this fact. In Past many of our Air force personnel have told media to induct J-10 in 2014-15 was due to the fact, they hoped china would ready WS-10 by that time. As Russian had not cleared re export of their AL-31F for Pakistan. Now as India buying Rafael for their AF Russian's have on many occasions replied for exporting hardware to Pakistan. Its now official from them.
> 
> PAF must fill gap with india having at least 54+4 dual seater as planned before.


i also believe that pakistan is getting these jets in 2015


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## gangsta_rap

I bet we could have had both if it weren't for zardari & friends

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## salman-1

J-31 is an immature plat form and their also might be no production facility ready for its serial production.

PAF has developed a habit of waiting long time to decide like india. PAF must go for FC-20 as indian's recent procurement of MIG 29k has further strengthened its air power even on sea side with k's.

FC-20 is of the same category of 4th generation. We can't put F-16's on every air combat mission against their wide variety of 4 gen. F-7-P/PG cant outgun every intercept mission. Losses would be more on our side then. 3 squadron's of FC-20 along with 76 F-16 will be a potent threat for IAF. Later increase in F-16 numbers will be a force multipliers

And if the F-16's spares were a problem during any conflict like always, what would be shape of Air force with minimum sorties of our front line fighters? Must have FC-20's even having same generation level of technology


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## AFlover

salman-1 said:


> J-31 is an immature plat form and their also might be no production facility ready for its serial production.
> 
> PAF has developed a habit of waiting long time to decide like india. PAF must go for FC-20 as indian's recent procurement of MIG 29k has further strengthened its air power even on sea side with k's.
> 
> FC-20 is of the same category of 4th generation. We can't put F-16's on every air combat mission against their wide variety of 4 gen. F-7-P/PG cant outgun every intercept mission. Losses would be more on our side then. 3 squadron's of FC-20 along with 76 F-16 will be a potent threat for IAF. Later increase in F-16 numbers will be a force multipliers
> 
> And if the F-16's spares were a problem during any conflict like always, what would be shape of Air force with minimum sorties of our front line fighters? Must have FC-20's even having same generation level of technology


I agree that in a war situation us will twist our arm with f16 spare policy. PAF must have different frams. JF17 may not be enough, a twin engine fighter is ideally better like J16, if not then J10s are oks due to rafale deal

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If that deal was not scrapped we would be celebrating 36 SPARKING J10B in our Airforce now and the theads would have been joyful on the ocassion but now due to the A.C Khalid guy we are stuck in waiting game still flying 80 Mirages


36 J10B incoming jets 

Retiring 40 Mirages 

A very simple logic however great level of shortsightedness on part of A.C Khalid


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## Viper0011.

AFlover said:


> I agree that in a war situation us will twist our arm with f16 spare policy. PAF must have different frams. JF17 may not be enough, a twin engine fighter is ideally better like J16, if not then J10s are oks due to rafale deal



Don't worry, you guys are about to get SU-35 or Mig-35's at the least with Russian BVR's. SAMS and MI helicopters have already been discussed and approved.
I don't think SU-30 will be chosen just because India has it. Expect three to four squadrons over the next 2-3 years. This with JFT block II and -16's Block 52 / MLU should give you a very fine defensive edge. Rafale factor nulls out.

J-10B is out. The PAF will go for JFT Block III (stealthy features) and a few squadrons of J-31. The number may increase but this will how the PAF will look like till 2030 IMO.

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## salman-1

Mig-35 and Su-35 are not suited to our Air force as Mig-35 is an upgraded last version of Mikoyan Family. PAF wont go for it as future developments would be only on request or specialized for any customer and not by further R&D by company. In competetion for the Egyptian Air force sale JF-17 was put against Mig-29 and later on Russian agitation it was decided to with draw as both have same engine family and we are dependent on the engines from russia not them.
Su-35 is also not liked as its too bulkier and even not in numbers by the Russian Air force and very expensive to operate.

What Rana Tanveer sahab missed to say was fighter jet *engines * and not just fighter jets

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## black-hawk_101

That's a good idea to concentrate more on 5th Generation.


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## salman-1

According to Kaiser Tufail Blk 3 are not even under discussion as alot of R&D has to be done for its design for making it stealth. In presence of FC-31 i dont think blk 3 wll ever be produced by us. Its same like inventing wheel again intead of improving whats available from china. I am sure FC-31 will be acquired as replacement of blk 3

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I do not know what fetish do Pakistanis have---stealth JF 17---twin tail JF 17---twin engine JF 17---. This aircraft is what it is---small---practical---capable---excellent weapons package---the only thing we need is the numbers---that is all.

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## Shinigami

AUz said:


> The gap between PAF and IAF was greatest of history in 2001-02 stand-off.....and IAF couldn't launch even a surgical strike inside Pakistan territory back then.
> 
> After that, Gap has only been decreasing and this trend would continue in coming future, Inshallah
> 
> In 2008, premiere IAF fighter, a fully armed Su-30MKI, entered Pakistani Air Space during high tensions....only to be *locked-on* by our F-16s and later, our 7 fighter jets "escorted" India's most lethal plane back to the border
> 
> After that, IAF never even dared to enter Pak's airspace during that tense time...let alone going forward with a surgical strike...let alone thinking about an open air-conflict with PAF....
> 
> In ALL previous engagements, where IAF and PAF engaged each other in shooting war, PAF was able to shoot down way more IAF aircrafts than vice versa.
> 
> See this thread started by a well-informed senior Indian member itself...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/38075-paf-kills-versis-iaf-kills.html

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## 帅的一匹

you need this







OrionHunter said:


> There's nothing on the planet that can counter the PAK FA T-50 except the F-22. At least not in the next 25 years.
> 
> And then the cost of a 5th gen fighter isn't peanuts. Pakistan would need to wait till its economy grows to afford these high tech toys. So up-gradations are a viable cost effective proposition where Pakistan is concerned. India too is upgrading its Mirage, Jaguar and Su 30 fleets.


save it, T50 is a cheap one to milk India. J31 looks one more promising design than T50. For me, T50 is more like a updated S35, not a brand new design. It's about the money invested.

J31 is the proper and affordable 5th gen design for developing countries, it breaks the stealthy fighters monopoly of the west. There is no other developing countries in the world can design a product like J31 in this planet. I'm pround of being a CHinese.

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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> you need this
> View attachment 162160
> 
> 
> 
> save it, T50 is a cheap one to milk India. J31 looks one more promising design than T50. For me, T50 is more like a updated S35, not a brand new design. It's about the money invested.
> 
> J31 is the proper and affordable 5th gen design for developing countries, it breaks the stealthy fighters monopoly of the west. There is no other developing countries in the world can design a product like J31 in this planet. I'm pround of being a CHinese.


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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


>


There is nothing to be mocked, we have 5 J20 prototypes and 1 J31 prototype. you have non FGFA.

Acutally the timeline for PAF going J31 shall be around year 2020.

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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> There is nothing to be mocked, we have 5 J20 prototypes and 1 J31 prototype. you have non FGFA.
> 
> Acutally the timeline for PAF going J31 shall be around year 2020.



Bullshit,,u don't even have a good chinese engine or radar to show for as of now.
Don't joke here comparing a dud like j-31 with pakfa.

Even j-20 stands no chance against pakfa electronics and power when it has type 30 engines by 2018-20.
The radar alone has 2300 t/r modules and is in testing since 2012,,where is j-20 radar??

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## Dalit

^^ Stop ruining this thread by making illogical comparisons.


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## he-man

Dalit said:


> ^^ Stop ruining this thread by making illogical comparisons.



What else should be done then??


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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> Bullshit,,u don't even have a good chinese engine or radar to show for as of now.
> Don't joke here comparing a dud like j-31 with pakfa.
> 
> Even j-20 stands no chance against pakfa electronics and power when it has type 30 engines by 2018-20.
> The radar alone has 2300 t/r modules and is in testing since 2012,,where is j-20 radar??


Don' take your father's tool to compare Chinese indigenous top notch weapon, Russia don't TOT you. just accept the ground the reality that India is outgun by China, why is that difficult for you? just look at the zig-zag belly of T50, is that called a stealthy fighter?



Dalit said:


> ^^ Stop ruining this thread by making illogical comparisons.


Indians never learn things.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> Don' take your father's tool to compare Chinese indigenous top notch weapon, Russia don't TOT you. just accept the ground the reality that India is outgun by China, why is that difficult for you? just look at the zig-zag belly of T50, is that called a stealthy fighter?
> 
> 
> Indians never learn things.



Zig-zag belly
U are as deluded as soviet union was due to lack of information in those days,,,believeing govt propaganda without even thinking.

Ur fighter

1)Has inferior radar untill proven otherwise which u cannot do as u have 0 idea.

2)100% inferior engine
3)100% inferior missiles
4)100% inferior agility

Still pakfa is dud


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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> Bullshit,,u don't even have* a good chinese engine or radar* to show for as of now.
> Don't joke here comparing a dud like j-31 with pakfa.
> 
> Even j-20 stands no chance against pakfa electronics and power when it has type 30 engines by 2018-20.
> The radar alone has 2300 t/r modules and is in testing since 2012,,where is j-20 radar??


Now J20 prototype 2013 is installed with a 14 tons thrust power WS10 series, and WS15 of 17 tons thrst power will be ready before year 2018. you better open your eyes big, or you will get caught off guard. We invest billions in engine R&D, the avergae age of design team members is only 35 years old. You try to comapre, just work harder.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> Now J20 prototype 2013 is installed with a 14 tons thrust power WS10 series, and WS15 of 17 tons thrst power will be ready before year 2018. you better open your eyes big, or you will get caught off guard. We invest billions in engine R&D, the avergae age of design team members is only 35 years old. You try to comapre, just work harder.



Not 1 picture to support the claim.
And chinese engines have a life of 1500-2000 hours maximum otherwise ws-10 would be used for jf-17.

Why its not used??


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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> Zig-zag belly
> U are as deluded as soviet union was due to lack of information in those days,,,believeing govt propaganda without even thinking.
> 
> Ur fighter
> 
> 1)Has inferior radar untill proven otherwise which u cannot do as u have 0 idea.
> 
> 2)100% inferior engine
> 3)100% inferior missiles
> 4)100% inferior agility
> 
> Still pakfa is dud


Ok, we will see in the battlefield. We cant wait that long before FGFA roll out, better take your time. Or J20/J31 will be very lonely fly in Tibet sky, hah?



he-man said:


> Not 1 picture to support the claim.
> And chinese engines have a life of 1500-2000 hours maximum otherwise ws-10 would be used for jf-17.
> 
> Why its not used??


WS10 is too big for JF17 to hold, learn some basic.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> Ok, we will see in the battlefield. We cant wait that long before FGFA roll out, better take your time. Or J20/J31 will be very lonely fly in Tibet sky, hah?



Again evading my question.

China has yet to make a radar equal to even irbis-e of su-35(aerial radars),,,what makes u think they will make a better radar than n036 of pakfa??


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## 帅的一匹

he-man said:


> Again evading my question.
> 
> China has yet to make a radar equal to even irbis-e of su-35(aerial radars),,,what makes u think they will make a better radar than n036 of pakfa??


As per the price of the oil today, Russia is going down the drain in noday. time to invest more in FGFA by India. Ibris-e is a PESA with comparatively low accuracy, we have long range AESA radar for J31 and J20. N036 is still in design phrase, you will see better one in Chinese fighter. We have better avionics tech than Russia, go check in google.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> As per the price of the oil today, Russia is going down the drain in noday. time to invest more in FGFA by India. Ibris-e is a PESA with comparatively low accuracy, we have long range AESA radar for J31 and J20. N036 is still in design phrase, you will see better one in Chinese fighter. We have better avionics tech than Russia, go check in google.



U know zilch.
China has not made 1 aerial pesa which is good,forget about aerial aesa.(fighters)
No36 is in testing since 2012,,,where is chinese aesa??

0 pics?except that low resolution pic of j-10b radar which looks like a pesa and not an aesa.

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## 帅的一匹

WS15 turbojet engine








he-man said:


> U know zilch.
> China has not made 1 aerial pesa which is good,forget about aerial aesa.(fighters)
> No36 is in testing since 2012,,,where is chinese aesa??
> 
> 0 pics?except that low resolution pic of j-10b radar which looks like a pesa and not an aesa.


If i have the picture, i will be invited for tea in national security office. You will see the picture before year 2016, its highly classifed. Mark my word Indian, you are nowhere near CHina's achievement.

No matter how good Russian weapon is, its not yours.

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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> WS15 turbojet engine
> View attachment 162178



lol.....is that a proof??
Am i dumb here to believe that??

117s and 117 have 4000 hours life with 142 kn and 147kn thrust respectively.
No chinese engine is closer at this point,,,,,none is more than 2000-3000 hours and even that is doubtful.



wanglaokan said:


> WS15 turbojet engine
> View attachment 162178
> 
> 
> 
> If i have the picture, i will be invited for tea in national security office. You will see the picture before year 2016, its highly classifed. Mark my word Indian, you are nowhere near CHina's achievement.
> 
> No matter how good Russian weapon is, its not yours.



Chinese this is the future................170-180 kn thrust with >6000 hours,,,bench testing starts in 2017

Russia made a 180 kn engine 18 years back
Saturn AL-41 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




he-man said:


> lol.....is that a proof??
> Am i dumb here to believe that??
> 
> 117s and 117 have 4000 hours life with 142 kn and 147kn thrust respectively.
> No chinese engine is closer at this point,,,,,none is more than 2000-3000 hours and even that is doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese this is the future................170-180 kn thrust with >6000 hours,,,bench testing starts in 2017
> 
> Russia made a 180 kn engine 18 years back
> Saturn AL-41 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Dalit

Dalit said:


> ^^ Stop ruining this thread by making illogical comparisons.



Firstly, this thread has nothing to do with PAK FA vs any other fighter. Secondly, what on earth do you even know about J-20, J-31 or even the PAK FA for that matter? Stop being a juvenile! Countries never advertise the true potential i.e. specs of their fighters to outsiders. Stick to the topic and stop flaming in this thread! *This thread is related to J-10B for PAF!*

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## salman-1

If you read FC-31 development speed it will not mature before 2025. The fact that its engines RD-93 being used are for safety measures, as a proven safe engine is used for flight testing,

A new Radar AESA is not installed as some western observers have observed. USA considers it a F-18 rival. Only one or max 2 prototypes are made yet. PLAAF might not buy it. They are opting for J-20. Design features are most likely for aircraft carrier use thats why USA comparing it with F-18 Hornets. Weapon firing testing has to take alot of time for a new compatible Fire control system with AESA radar, which is under development.

China by acquiring F-35 design info through private hackers on Pentagon (One report of 35 million data file hacked ) is testing a well copied stealth Air frame mostly with Russian engines. No Cruise control, No VSTOLl engine and most importantly LACKING THE FUSION COCKPIT CONCEPT instead of old glass cockpit technology, which we consider latest. 

What PAF is looking for is an ADD ON SKIN OF STEALTH Over FC-20 systems or J-16/15 Chinese made Avionics

We could have a block 40/42 F-16 inside a Chinese stealth platform. Well if thats the idea it could be beneficial if the cost remains close to F-16's MLU


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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> lol.....is that a proof??
> Am i dumb here to believe that??
> 
> 117s and 117 have 4000 hours life with 142 kn and 147kn thrust respectively.
> No chinese engine is closer at this point,,,,,none is more than 2000-3000 hours and even that is doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese this is the future................170-180 kn thrust with >6000 hours,,,bench testing starts in 2017
> 
> Russia made a 180 kn engine 18 years back
> Saturn AL-41 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 162185



No point in discussing things with @wanglaokan 
You will get answers like Low IQ Indian only

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## tarrar

J10B now are needed to replace the dead fleet of Mirage, PAF needs to use their head & stop thinking that US will give them a fighter jet.


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## Kompromat

tarrar said:


> J10B now are needed to replace the dead fleet of Mirage, PAF needs to use their head & stop thinking that US will give them a fighter jet.



JF-17s will replace them.


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## salman-1

We need an equivalent to F-16's to counter the massive fleet of IAF. 10-12% air crafts are always in repair and maintenance.

Can made like this, adding con formal fuel tanks will give look like a F-16 blk 52


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## jupiter2007

salman-1 said:


> We need an equivalent to F-16's to counter the massive fleet of IAF. 10-12% air crafts are always in repair and maintenance.
> 
> Can made like this, adding con formal fuel tanks will give look like a F-16 blk 52
> View attachment 163457
> 
> 
> View attachment 163459



We will have to wait and see if Jf-17 block III is going to be redesigned version of Jf-17.
Otherwise above option is not bad for stop gap purpose.
*
I think PAF in near future will get more F-16 new and used with MLU and increase the production of Jf-17 block II to replace older Mirage (25 Mirage III and 15 Mirage V) and 50 F-7P.*

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## tarrar

Horus said:


> JF-17s will replace them.



JF17 is not a solution for everything.

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## Jungibaaz

tarrar said:


> JF17 is not a solution for everything.



Actually it is. JF-17 is a multi role platform designed to replace otherwise old machines dedicated to specific roles.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

jupiter2007 said:


> We will have to wait and see if Jf-17 block III is going to be redesigned version of Jf-17.
> Otherwise above option is not bad for stop gap purpose.
> *
> I think PAF in near future will get more F-16 new and used with MLU and increase the production of Jf-17 block II to replace older Mirage (25 Mirage III and 15 Mirage V) and 50 F-7P.*


Extremely unlikely that the JF-17 Block III will see any significant structural redesign - at best we might see increased use of composite materials. 

Structural changes resulting in increased hard-points and/or wing-loads will be tied to the availability of improved (higher thrust) Russian or Chinese engines.

Realistically, any significant changes will probably occur in aircraft avionics and the integration of new/improved weapons, and that is really where the focus of the JF-17 team should be, given Pakistan's limited resources.

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## Bilal.

Horus said:


> JF-17s will replace them.



J-10 would have been an ideal replacement for mirages. JFT does not add the raw performance jump that one would desire.


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## Kompromat

Bilal. said:


> J-10 would have been an ideal replacement for mirages. JFT does not add the raw performance jump that one would desire.



Who's paying for 150 J-10B's?


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## Bilal.

Horus said:


> Who's paying for 150 J-10B's?



Just sayin' 

They "would have" been ideal.


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## Kompromat

Bilal. said:


> Just sayin'
> 
> They "would have" been ideal.



Scarlet Johanson wou'd've made an ideal mistress of mine too.

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## Bilal.

Horus said:


> Scarlet Johanson wou'd've made an ideal mistress of mine too.



True. But you did not lose Ms. Johanson due to Zardari's government.

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## Kompromat

Bilal. said:


> True. But you did not lose Ms. Johanson due to Zardari's government.



He kicked PAF in the balls!


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## Bilal.

Horus said:


> He kicked PAF in the balls!



And navy...Those U-214 would have been ideal addition to the subsurface fleet

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## Kompromat

Bilal. said:


> And navy...Those U-214 would have been ideal addition to the subsurface fleet



I don't know when these oarcs will spare us.

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## salman-1

PAF was about to make final decision for FC-20 when Osama incident happened. It was requested to china on emergency basis . A $2.5 billion price tag was also decided for 58 jet fighters along with service and maintenance depots etc. But again PAF got double minded.
Kiyani shb was eager with Suleman Rafiq for the purchase. Later dropped again as new Air cheif had to come and finalize it.
Fifth generation FC-31 is not a stop gap solution. Here we need is a duplicate of F-16 to fill the gap and war assurance for parts. Its only FC-20.
Specially when Modi shb is there PAF must fill the gap asap . Modi's tenure is like 60-40 chance of any conflict.

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## jupiter2007

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Extremely unlikely that the JF-17 Block III will see any significant structural redesign - at best we might see increased use of composite materials.
> 
> Structural changes resulting in increased hard-points and/or wing-loads will be tied to the availability of improved (higher thrust) Russian or Chinese engines.
> 
> Realistically, any significant changes will probably occur in aircraft avionics and the integration of new/improved weapons, and that is really where the focus of the JF-17 team should be, given Pakistan's limited resources.



You are right, Jf-17 will not see an extensive change in design, probably more composite, better radar, more powerful engine and better avionics package for Jf-17 block 3.

Pakistan does need something for stop gap purpose, used F-16 might be a good idea.

30+ F-7PG and 40+ Mirage III/V might still be in service until 2020, but rest will need to be retired as soon as possible.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Decision to ayse li , like if 18 , 5th generation jets were parked out side of the Mr Chairman's office , oh nahi yar we want 5th generation

Flying 1970's planes and not taking brand new J10B jets


Wo bhi kiya din the , when Mushraf Sahib was incharge anything was possible

We were getting BRAND NEW planes , 36 plane and finally get rid of 1970s stuff







Hath KHALI ... aur kuwab , bare bare dekh raha hai , Cheif sahib

It was such a iconic DEAL imagine Pakistan only 1 of 2 nations flying this BEAST plane

Nahi Hum ne to apne Mirage urane hain ....

December 2014 was the arrival date of 36 Jets .... !!!! What an opportunity Missed

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## 帅的一匹

Horus said:


> He kicked PAF in the balls!


why say so?

if Musharaf was still on stage, I think the delivery for 36 J10b had been completed. to be honest , Mushraf is the most favorite PAK leader of mine kind.

I think PAF will eventually go with J10c, cause you have bunches of old jets waited to be retired before year 2020. 5th gen fighter like J31 is too expensive to buy at large bulks. I still believe PAF will fly J10 derivatives in the future, it depends on your economy and stability.

why Musharaf kicked out of the thrown? murder Bhutto family?

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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> why say so?



He gave no procurement money to PAF from 2007-2013.



> if Musharaf was still on stage, I think the delivery for 36 J10b had been completed. to be honest , Mushraf is the most favorite PAK leader of mine kind.



Musharraf had planned for 150 MRCA jets including 70 F-16 Block-52+ and rest J-10Bs by 2018.



> I think PAF will eventually go with J10c, cause you have bunches of old jets waited to be retired before year 2020. 5th gen fighter like J31 is too expensive to buy at large bulks. I still believe PAF will fly J10 derivatives in the future, it depends on your economy and stability.



That again depends on how govt treats PAF. J-10s won't come to PAF, i think we have gone past that window since Rafale is delayed in a big way. PAKFA is also late by a good 4 years. For PAF its much better to partner with SAC and do the development of J-31 over the next decade. We also need a replacement for our F-16s by 2030 which J-31 can fit the bill for.



> why Musharaf kicked out of the thrown? murder Bhutto family?



He was not kicked out. He was stupid who got duped in by neo conservative Republicans i.e Bush into allowing Bhutto and Sharif to return.

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## araz

Horus said:


> He kicked PAF in the balls!


Horus.
Thank the Lord if Scarlet kicked you the way Zardari did Pakistan, we might all be talking to Horus Appa
Araz

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## fatman17

now with the landmark Russia-PK defence co-operation agreement whereby the russians have agreed to supply the RD-93 directly to PK for the JFT, there could be a possibility to convince the russians to also supply the AL-31 engine which is fitted on the J-10A-B-C versions. if this is successful as this was the only hurdle previously (no export licence) then the J-10/FC-20 project can be revived.

we are talking USD$ 1.5B for 2 squadrons.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> now with the landmark Russia-PK defence co-operation agreement whereby the russians have agreed to supply the RD-93 directly to PK for the JFT, there could be a possibility to convince the russians to also supply the AL-31 engine which is fitted on the J-10A-B-C versions. if this is successful as this was the only hurdle previously (no export licence) then the J-10/FC-20 project can be revived.
> 
> we are talking USD$ 1.5B for 2 squadrons.


Sir.
There is another problem and that is the reliability of AL31 engine itself. The Indian MKI fleet is sufferring from problems and the recent J10 crash has been attributed to engine failure. My feeling is that rather than convincing the Russians it is more a case of PAF getting cold feet in view of limited gains from a lot of investment and also due to engine problems . Even on this forum or on the sister forum there have been posts regarding serious flame outs of J10s observed by PAF on recent exercise with PLAAF. I think the PAF decision to not go down the J10 route is the most pragmatic decision that it could have taken under the current circumstances of severe austerity due to a crippling economic crunch. The RD93 ROUTE seems to suit us as it is a rough and ready engine with reasonable thrust. As confidence builds up, I suspect we may see an offering for J31 as well from a later iteration of this family. Although the offer would be towards the Chinese or the joint Sino Pak team, It should tell us how serious PAF is about inducting J31. So our priority should be in my humble opinion should be RD93 overhaul and some offset and minor parts building facilities with a view to getting the later iteration of "la familia de RD93" as the need arises and a written undertaking from the russkies to support and upgrade our facilities as required
araz

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir.
> There is another problem and that is the reliability of AL31 engine itself. The Indian MKI fleet is sufferring from problems and the recent J10 crash has been attributed to engine failure. My feeling is that rather than convincing the Russians it is more a case of PAF getting cold feet in view of limited gains from a lot of investment and also due to engine problems . Even on this forum or on the sister forum there have been posts regarding serious flame outs of J10s observed by PAF on recent exercise with PLAAF. I think the PAF decision to not go down the J10 route is the most pragmatic decision that it could have taken under the current circumstances of severe austerity due to a crippling economic crunch. The RD93 ROUTE seems to suit us as it is a rough and ready engine with reasonable thrust. As confidence builds up, I suspect we may see an offering for J31 as well from a later iteration of this family. Although the offer would be towards the Chinese or the joint Sino Pak team, It should tell us how serious PAF is about inducting J31. So our priority should be in my humble opinion should be RD93 overhaul and some offset and minor parts building facilities with a view to getting the later iteration of "la familia de RD93" as the need arises and a written undertaking from the russkies to support and upgrade our facilities as required
> araz


 
AL-31 is very reliable, as reliable as any russian engine.


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## SipahSalar

Indians have to understand China has the edge here over Russia. Its Russia's first time building a stealth jet whereas China has access to decades of work done by USA on stealth aircraft design.

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## monitor

I think instead of J-10B as the Russian are now willing to give military hardware to Pakistan 2~3 squadron of J-11/15/16 with reliable AL-31 or any Russian engine would be more logical if Su-35 is not available .it will give Pakistan the breathing place until the J-31 arrival .

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## salman-1

J-10B is design to deal with J-15 or F-15 caliber aircraft . J-15/16 wont be available for export for many years as chinese are putting their local WS-10 engines which have limited engine life and reletively very slow production rate. J-10 B or FC-20 with AL-31F engines giving 31000 pounds of thrust are highly suitable for Air forces like Pakistan. Single engine with high weight to thrust ratio and economical to operate. AESA Radar and other tested variety of weapons systems would be a complete solution for PAF against Indian Su-30MK2


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## Zarvan

We should not drop this we should go for 72 to 90 active J-10 B


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## Viper0011.

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Decision to ayse li , like if 18 , 5th generation jets were parked out side of the Mr Chairman's office , oh nahi yar we want 5th generation
> Flying 1970's planes and not taking brand new J10B jets
> Wo bhi kiya din the , when Mushraf Sahib was incharge anything was possible. We were getting BRAND NEW planes , 36 plane and finally get rid of 1970s stuffDecember 2014 was the arrival date of 36 Jets .... !!!! What an opportunity Missed



Patience my man, patience. It is all working out for the better. JFT Block II is going to be developed in 3 location unlike the JFT Block I. So Pakistan will start to see a rapid production of the Block II from this month onwards. Some 40-50 planes per year between China and Pakistan (if no foreign orders come through). Block II is like 75% closer to F-16's block 52. And it beyond ALL older planes in the PAF's inventory. So that's a generation worth of leap.

Plus, the J-10C is slightly more advanced than JFT Block II. Not a lot of difference. The gov't is working on the economy and ties with the Russians. You'll end up getting more -16's block 52, some used -16's MLU and a few squadrons of Mig-35 or SU-37, either one brings a LOT of capability needed against the IAF in terms of heavies. 

Last, economic growth will result in a more steathier JFT Block III with local production (CAN'T beat that) plus a co-partnership with J-31 or another similar program with local assembly and building ability. Can't beat that either


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## salman-1

There will be no Mig-35 as its the last product of Mikoyan Family. Even India Iraq and other countries using Migs dropped it. Su-37 is not an easy cake to swallow as its cost per unit is around $90-100 million per piece plus fly away cost not affordable for our little Air force which always avoid a twin engine. Whats more easy would be from Russia only would be choppers and used equipment as T-80 UD tanks type deals.
Russia won't open their every military artical so soon . You have to deepen relations in years for top military deals. AL-31F engines were not permitted when we were ready to buy 58 FC-20 as India still have alot of say over Russia .
Now we should ask those things first which suits us more and affordable. Their are many institutes in China working for future developments of 4-4.5th gen Radars jamming equipment, laser designators , Jdams with glide system, anti Tank weapons, electro-optical pods for FC-20, J-15/16 type aircrafts as they have access to this technology from west. F-16 blk 52 technology would not be a far secret for them to be used on these aircrafts. These latest weapons are not fired from any ordinary fire control systems. They need alot of navigation and hi tech computers and Radar systems for integration

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## TOPGUN

I say go for the 36 as it was planned , stay in to fill the stop gap get further used F-16's keep the thunders rolling and then wait for J-31 its a win - win situation but again dreams are made for fools reality and money $ speaks any language hope PAF chooses wisely .


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## A2Z

orangzaib said:


> Patience my man, patience. It is all working out for the better. JFT Block II is going to be developed in 3 location unlike the JFT Block I. So Pakistan will start to see a rapid production of the Block II from this month onwards. Some 40-50 planes per year between China and Pakistan (if no foreign orders come through). Block II is like 75% closer to F-16's block 52. And it beyond ALL older planes in the PAF's inventory. So that's a generation worth of leap.
> 
> Plus, the J-10C is slightly more advanced than JFT Block II. Not a lot of difference. The gov't is working on the economy and ties with the Russians. You'll end up getting more -16's block 52, some used -16's MLU and a few squadrons of Mig-35 or SU-37, either one brings a LOT of capability needed against the IAF in terms of heavies.
> 
> Last, economic growth will result in a more steathier JFT Block III with local production (CAN'T beat that) plus a co-partnership with J-31 or another similar program with local assembly and building ability. Can't beat that either


Can you please tell the other 2 locations apart from PAC Kamra where thunders will be built?
Don't you think 75% capability of block 52 is a bit more to expect from block 2 of thunder?
Lastly more MLUed F-16 are possible but block 52, Mig-35 and Su-37 is never gonna happen.


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## Viper0011.

A2Z said:


> Can you please tell the other 2 locations apart from PAC Kamra where thunders will be built?
> Don't you think 75% capability of block 52 is a bit more to expect from block 2 of thunder?
> Lastly more MLUed F-16 are possible but block 52, Mig-35 and Su-37 is never gonna happen.



If I remember correctly and some can correct me if I am wrong, there was a location in Sindh somewhere already being setup for manufacturing. It was supposed to start producing these planes from early 2015. Then, the Chinese were thinking about adding another facility for just JFT as there is a block III in the pipes too and some foreign buyers, who'd rather buy from China directly than going through Pakistan, due to their existing financial and trade agreements with the Chinese. So that gives you three locations (or four if you count the original manufacturing location).

I think if Pakistan becomes successful in rooting out these terrorists and cleaning up the entire FATA, Block 52 is entirely possible. I personally think US will be more than happy to help an ally who finally took the final step in eradicating AL-Qaeda of the FATA map. I thought there was the option to buy 18 more block 52's. But they are expensive so $$ may be an issue.

SU and Mig can definitely happen IMO. Depends on how the negotiations are done. The Russians are needing money desperately due to sanctions so they'll sell anything to help their economy.

I'd skip J-10 all together. The best and most affordable YET higher quality option for Pakistan is to acquire used F-16's in number for like 50% of the price. MLU'd -16's would give you the best bang for your buck and they still have a service life of like 10-15 years more. Till then, you could develop your JFT's block II and III's. Between -16's MLU'd and JFT block III's and some stealthy option, this is more than enough fire power to defend yourself properly.


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## A2Z

orangzaib said:


> If I remember correctly and some can correct me if I am wrong, there was a location in Sindh somewhere already being setup for manufacturing. It was supposed to start producing these planes from early 2015. Then, the Chinese were thinking about adding another facility for just JFT as there is a block III in the pipes too and some foreign buyers, who'd rather buy from China directly than going through Pakistan, due to their existing financial and trade agreements with the Chinese. So that gives you three locations (or four if you count the original manufacturing location).
> 
> I think if Pakistan becomes successful in rooting out these terrorists and cleaning up the entire FATA, Block 52 is entirely possible. I personally think US will be more than happy to help an ally who finally took the final step in eradicating AL-Qaeda of the FATA map. I thought there was the option to buy 18 more block 52's. But they are expensive so $$ may be an issue.
> 
> SU and Mig can definitely happen IMO. Depends on how the negotiations are done. The Russians are needing money desperately due to sanctions so they'll sell anything to help their economy.
> 
> I'd skip J-10 all together. The best and most affordable YET higher quality option for Pakistan is to acquire used F-16's in number for like 50% of the price. MLU'd -16's would give you the best bang for your buck and they still have a service life of like 10-15 years more. Till then, you could develop your JFT's block II and III's. Between -16's MLU'd and JFT block III's and some stealthy option, this is more than enough fire power to defend yourself properly.


I totally agree with you that 2nd hand F-16 are our best option, PAF should sweep all the 2nd hand F-16 they can find either from USA, Turkey or any other country that is ready to sell them.This would not only fill the gaps but provide JFT the time to mature.
However as far as Russia is concerned yes they wont mind the money coming in but its close ally India wont let that happen. But I might be wrong as well with India looking more towards west for the weapons and Russia agreeing for the sale of Mi-28 any thing is possible.


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## 帅的一匹

PAF would have owned at least 50 plus J10 if Musharaff was not kicked out.

PAF would have owned at least 50 plus J10 if Musharaff was not kicked out.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

lol We will get 2 sparking Block 2 thunders instead of 36 BRAND NEW J10B Jets good going Airforce chief....

Let me know once you secure the Stealth plane deal in 2040

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## princefaisal

If J-10B has any some sort of input from PAF, then it should be procured. It has AESA radar, higher engine power, 11 hardpoints, DSI, wide angle HUD, Helmet mounted sight, some RAM coating, IRST, IFR, Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting pod, ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, MAWs sensor etc.. It is especially designed for high altitude BVR engagements against Su-30mki.

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## A2Z

PAF should have got J-10s by now but it looks like we left it so that the funds could be used in thunder program.
Moreover if things goes smoothly and economy improves we might see the features of J-10 in block-3 of the thunder or even an upgraded block 2 that has AESA, more powerfull variant of WS-13 and HMS.


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## Dr. Strangelove

princefaisal said:


> If J-10B has any some sort of input from PAF, then it should be procured. It has AESA radar, higher engine power, 11 hardpoints, DSI, wide angle HUD, Helmet mounted sight, some RAM coating, IRST, IFR, Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting pod, ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, MAWs sensor etc.. It is especially designed for high altitude BVR engagements against Su-30mki.


2080 yaar 2040 to boat jadi a jayey ga


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## princefaisal

Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.


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## araz

princefaisal said:


> Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.


I dont think it works like that. PAF will get their allocated aircrafts and then foreign orders will be met. Perhaps China may utilize its manufacturing facilities for this purpose or PAF may (less likely) open a second line for ordered ACs but PAF orders will have priority.
Araz

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## fatman17

princefaisal said:


> Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.



Most unlikely



araz said:


> I dont think it works like that. PAF will get their allocated aircrafts and then foreign orders will be met. Perhaps China may utilize its manufacturing facilities for this purpose or PAF may (less likely) open a second line for ordered ACs but PAF orders will have priority.
> Araz



Most likely


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The blunders of PAF----. For many a years I have stated that PAF needed an extremely potent aircraft and that also on a fastrak----because----the lovey dovey posture of the neighbor could change into mean and nasty in a heart beat---and you guys over here---I don't know what frigging world that you lived in had no concept of what I was saying---.

The posture of the neighbor changed within hours of the elections next door---. And as usual---the PAF failed the nation one more time because it was not ready to do its job.

The should have taken the J10's if they were offered with an aesa.

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## Storm Force

> The should have taken the J10's if they were offered with an aesa.



master khan

not only j10b but also another 18 block 52 from usa

plus paf evaluation of rafale way before india got involved

but its easier said then done too many bridges and hurdles to get these super fighters

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## araz

but its easier said then done too many bridges and hurdles to get these super fighters[/QUOTE]
This is the crunch point. MASTAN KHAN and I differ on his and my interpretation of events. He blames the PAF entirely for the fiasco. I assign blame on our flimsy and inept Economy and even more corrupt Government and beaurocrasy. In his hastiness to blame PAF he has forgotten the fact that we never had the money to even keep up payments for what we have bought much less buy new stuff. PAF made a pragmatic choice of developing JFT further and beg the US for more F16s which it is not giving without getting paid for it.
Araz

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## Paksanity

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The blunders of PAF----. For many a years I have stated that PAF needed an extremely potent aircraft and that also on a fastrak----because----the lovey dovey posture of the neighbor could change into mean and nasty in a heart beat---and you guys over here---I don't know what frigging world that you lived in had no concept of what I was saying---.
> 
> The posture of the neighbor changed within hours of the elections next door---. And as usual---the PAF failed the nation one more time because it was not ready to do its job.
> 
> The should have taken the J10's if they were offered with an aesa.



Apparently PAF was not very impressed with J 10 and wanted to customise it to its requirements. This was a major hurdle as this involves opening aircraft to other vendors outside China. China must be uncomfortable with that. Let's not forget that PAF has exercised with J10 atleast twice. Another 18 Blk 52s are better option in my opinion.

But consider other things, like state of economy, expenditure on terorrism fight, mismanagement by current Government. Now consider this; cash for the throw away price Jordinian F16s was a headache for PAF. How on earth are we talking of 60 million$+ aircraft like that?

PAF has not failed the nation in my opinion. For the resources and equipment they hold, they have done wonderfully well IMHO.


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## MastanKhan

Storm Force said:


> master khan
> 
> not only j10b but also another 18 block 52 from usa
> 
> plus paf evaluation of rafale way before india got involved
> 
> but its easier said then done too many bridges and hurdles to get these super fighters



Hi,

There were no hurdles between 2002 till 2005-----paf had the money---French were willing---actually French were desperately willing---paf was just playing a game---a stupid game.

It is a typical game that most of the Pakistanis play over here and everywhere----the game of showing strength with weapons that they don't have and will get in the future.

Pragmatic approaches don't win wars and neither do they stop the enemy to think over twice before striking.

Bridges and hurdles were only created by the Pakistanis. Every thing was open and available for them---the only thing these morons had to do was to kill the terrorists----they are doing it now----after a 150 billion dollars loss and close to a 100 thousand dead---and no end to terrorism in sight----.

How stupid does does a nation has to be to do that---all the clever Punjabis---these stoic pathans----these Urdu speaking muhajjirs that can count the feathers on a sparrow flying overhead or the balochis----what a nation of losers---happily destroyed their motherland for some disgusting foreign terrorists---.

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There were no hurdles between 2002 till 2005-----paf had the money---French were willing---actually French were desperately willing---paf was just playing a game---a stupid game.
> 
> It is a typical game that most of the Pakistanis play over here and everywhere----the game of showing strength with weapons that they don't have and will get in the future.
> 
> Pragmatic approaches don't win wars and neither do they stop the enemy to think over twice before striking.
> 
> Bridges and hurdles were only created by the Pakistanis. Every thing was open and available for them---the only thing these morons had to do was to kill the terrorists----they are doing it now----after a 150 billion dollars loss and close to a 100 thousand dead---and no end to terrorism in sight----.
> 
> How stupid does does a nation has to be to do that---all the clever Punjabis---these stoic pathans----these Urdu speaking muhajjirs that can count the feathers on a sparrow flying overhead or the balochis----what a nation of losers---happily destroyed their motherland for some disgusting foreign terrorists---.



I agree with every word you wrote. Wish there were more people in Pakistan like you, it would be a much different place.
The PAF and the PA had ALL the opportunity, the US kept telling them to neutralize this terrorism threat before it becomes a bigger issue for Pakistan, before anyone else. What did Mushy and the generals do?
They kept running conspiracy theories as to the US had 'other' interests. When, in reality, this advise was being given based on the threat perception of Pakistan becoming a terrorist hub. And now, with less than good relationship with major western countries, 100 thousand people and soldiers dead, and billions of economic loss, they are now taking the action. Problem is, the Iron ain't hot no more. The US is pretty much out of Afghanistan, the politicians and the public in the US don't look at Pakistan in a very friendly manner and the work being done has less importance to the US.
Had these steps been taken in 2002 till 2007, you could probably see a lot more F-16's in the PAF, even the JFT would probably be flying with a French engine and Mirage 2000's avionics, with a high likelihood of actually having Mirage 2000's along with F-16's in decent numbers.

This is a much worst repeat of the Hawkeye drama from the 80's and the F-16 saga of the 90's. You'd think that someone would've learned a lesson..... but no!



Paksanity said:


> Apparently PAF was not very impressed with J 10 and wanted to customise it to its requirements.
> 
> But consider other things, like state of economy, expenditure on terorrism fight, mismanagement by current Government. Now consider this; cash for the throw away price Jordinian F16s was a headache for PAF. How on earth are we talking of 60 million$+ aircraft like that?
> 
> PAF has not failed the nation in my opinion. For the resources and equipment they hold, they have done wonderfully well IMHO.



It's not about 'customization', the J-10B doesn't offer the PAF anything besides some more range, better payload and almost twice the price tag of the JFT, with little less capability in the later, and future room to use miniaturized components of the J-10. So what's better? A J-10B with almost twice the price tag or two JFT's, combined the two, you get better payload, more coverage in the shape of two planes, and less loss / attrition risk as it's two to one physical planes. 
J-10B doesn't offer anything above and beyond. The PAF is making a smart move by trying to get fifth gen tech. Then replicate that tech in the JFT block III platform in numbers and with majority tot. But, till this all happens, there are gaps. And those will need to be filled soon, specially with the new hawkish Indian regime on one side and the Afghanis on the other, hating Pakistan. 
The first priority should've been to negotiate used F-16's from the US a while ago. The deliveries needed to be happening right now. 175-200 used F-16's can provide a massive punch for the next 10 years for existing Indian platform (I compare to India as that's really the only arch rival Pakistan has). This should give time to induct a fifth gen platform and upgrade all JFT's to block III and introduce a stealthy block III of the JFT platform

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In the mid to late 90's Dale Brown a fiction writer and an ex Navigator on a B52 and B1 bombers writes about a B52 megafortress----an aircraft capable of carrying and launching smart weapons alongwith BVR missiles----. He as these aircraft rebuilt and upgraded at special facitilies---and these aircraft play roles in his works of fiction.

Guess what---this aircraft is a reality----all the remaining B52's are being upgraded and capable of launching smart and BVR weapons---the news has out in he papers lately---.

Can you imagine 70,000 lbs of smart weapons being launched by one aircraft.

The biggest fear the U S govt has is its intellectual property being stolen thru these works of fictions---and U S believes that the Chinese govt is the largest buyer of these works of fiction regaring hi tech weapons.

So---about 2004-205 I am a member of www.pakdef.org and there is this member Boota Masih----now BOOTA---I mentioned this thing on that board---and this guy makes fun of me amongst many others---he is amongst many a Pakistani intellectual and educated Pakistanis on that board.

The purpose of this post is that Pakistanis had absolutely no exposure to what U S was capable of----what it weapons technology was like----what they were trying to achieve.

I do not know what Pakistani military teaches in military academy and how it trains it officers---. Whenever I have heard an interview with a military cadet---the only thing these moron can say is " I am ready to die for my country " and that is all the MANTRA they know--we will take the eyes out of the enemy is another one---we will break their faces is another one---we will break their teeth is a favorite also.

Even majority of the administrators on this board and other managers talked about beating up the U S military as well---till the time of Salala check post.

What I am trying to tell my countrymen---people---you were neither clever, nor intelligent---God gave you the opportunity and you squandered it like never in the KNOWN HISTORY OF MANKIND---.

For the first 5 years of the WOT---Pakistan had US by the ballz---but the paks did so many stupid things one after the other and they never pulled themselves away from what they do.

There is a saying about the united states----you fear what you do not know about the capabilities of the americans.

I have read materal and works of fiction on Ghingiss Khan----that man also is known to have fear of his enemies. The fear made him know the enemy better---the fear made him prepare to fight the enemy better.

Every great general and leader of men showed fear of their enemy to make themselves prepare to fight them better.

And there is another example right in front of us---the united states military----in 2001 it did not fear the enemy and neither did it prepare well enough for a conquest---and for that reason----even though it killed over 2 and a 1/2 million plus people in afg and Iraq---it still had to leave both these countries with its tail between its legs---a complete and total failure in both of the campaigns---its only saving grace----it fought the wars soe 6 to 7 thousand miles away---it is a continent in itself and can control the news nd the people don't know any better.

Tere came a time for Pakistan---that a year ago---even china gave Pakistan a cold shoulder---china told Pakistan that it is done with it---all its aid is going into deep pockets----Pakistan was lucky that out of sheer stupidity india started confronting china---.

Same with the U S----it had washed its hands from Pakistan---good luck for Pakistan that U S policy in the middle east completely failed---where is that idiot @state-dept-retd ---it was because of his doings ---- and thus Pakistan got a new life.

It is sad to say about my motherland---Pakistanis had the opportunity to reach out and grab the stars out of the skies but they chose to fall into the mud on the ground face first and slipping and struggling to get back up.

My countrymen are so brainless that they loaned the u s govt a billion dollars a year for services which the u s now calls aid---and pays back what it wants to and when it wants to.


King Abdullah just died.

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## ArsalanKhan21

Paksanity said:


> Apparently PAF was not very impressed with J 10 and wanted to customise it to its requirements. This was a major hurdle as this involves opening aircraft to other vendors outside China. China must be uncomfortable with that. Let's not forget that PAF has exercised with J10 atleast twice. Another 18 Blk 52s are better option in my opinion.



PAF does not seem to have many options. F-16 Block 52 is good to have. PAF we will buy 36 J-10B that we agreed few years ago if India buys Rafale.


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## That Guy

princefaisal said:


> Lets suppose that we get 40 orders of JF-17 from Nigeria & 20 from any other country, then obviously PAC will halt the JF-17 delivery to the PAF and give preference to other buyers. Then the option would be to induct J-10 if we couldn't find any MLU F-16s from elsewhere.


No, that's not how it works. Either a new plant will open in Pakistan, or local assembly plants will open in the purchasing nation.


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## MastanKhan

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> PAF does not seem to have many options. F-16 Block 52 is good to have. PAF we will buy 36 J-10B that we agreed few years ago if India buys Rafale.



Hi,

Currently---only Chinese----if rafale is cancelled by india then French as well.

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## Paksanity

MastanKhan said:


> I do not know what Pakistani military teaches in military academy and how it trains it officers---. Whenever I have heard an interview with a military cadet---the only thing these moron can say is " I am ready to die for my country " and that is all the MANTRA they know--we will take the eyes out of the enemy is another one---we will break their faces is another one---we will break their teeth is a favorite also.



That is how a cadet is suppose to respond. As he is being groomed for junior officer tasks, he is suppose to carry out orders, just that! He is not the strategy maker. Not yet. Later, military officers will be trained in foreign countries like US, France, Germany, Australia, UK, China, Malaysia etc. Pakistan military officers have been among top graduates of these institutions for a very long time. They are trained very well.



MastanKhan said:


> Same with the U S----it had washed its hands from Pakistan---good luck for Pakistan that U S policy in the middle east completely failed---where is that idiot @state-dept-retd ---it was because of his doings ---- and thus Pakistan got a new life.



Pakistan will not be isolated. US will continue to engage Pakistan as its ally. There is growing sense in US establishments that sanctions don't work well with Pakistan. Pakistan has ways to work around them and in doing so gets further pushed into Chinese influence. And recently into Russian influence may be. Saudi influence is also something US wants to curtail. Arms industry also sees Pakistan as a market. While they will not like to transfer technology they will happily sell. Yes even today, Eurofighter is on offer to Pakistan, with strings attached. They are all too aware that Pakistan will procure weapons at whatever cost. More blockage of military hardware pushes Pakistan to develop its own arms industry with Chinese, Russian and Turkish help and Saudi money. This pushes Pakistan in their influence further. That not only kills their market, it also produces competition when Pakistan starts to export these weapons. Not a good scenario for them. So they will continue to engage Pakistan in a way to meet it's minimum defence requirements and keep some sort of military balance in region.

US and West is also way too aware that sanctions have created way too much hatred in common people of Pakistan. In fact Hillary Clinton in her testimony to congressional committee said F 16 has become a symbol of US betrayal to Pakistanis. We should not have withheld those birds. It is printed on Pakistani memory as they have loved their F16 so much.

As of today, Eurofighter, F16, J10 and Grippen are on offer. If India drops Rafael, France will offer it without much hesitation. But they are not the full package that we are looking for. Just for one have faith. PAF commits mistakes, sure it does. But out of all three arms of military, it has been the best so far. It has outperformed others in wars. This happened while having to live under the shadow of much powerful Army.

The years you talk about like 2002-2005. Well Gen Mushshraf had resented PAF since Kargil. He has tried put blame on PAF for his planning failures. PAF was not even part of this plan to start with. Qaiser Tufail has testified to that.

Given what they have and the limited space they can wiggle in, PAF does a fine job.

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## MastanKhan

Paksanity said:


> That is how a cadet is suppose to respond. As he is being groomed for junior officer tasks, he is suppose to carry out orders, just that! He is not the strategy maker. Not yet. Later, military officers will be trained in foreign countries like US, France, Germany, Australia, UK, China, Malaysia etc. Pakistan military officers have been among top graduates of these institutions for a very long time. They are trained very well.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan will not be isolated. US will continue to engage Pakistan as its ally. There is growing sense in US establishments that sanctions don't work well with Pakistan. Pakistan has ways to work around them and in doing so gets further pushed into Chinese influence. And recently into Russian influence may be. Saudi influence is also something US wants to curtail. Arms industry also sees Pakistan as a market. While they will not like to transfer technology they will happily sell. Yes even today, Eurofighter is on offer to Pakistan, with strings attached. They are all too aware that Pakistan will procure weapons at whatever cost. More blockage of military hardware pushes Pakistan to develop its own arms industry with Chinese, Russian and Turkish help and Saudi money. This pushes Pakistan in their influence further. That not only kills their market, it also produces competition when Pakistan starts to export these weapons. Not a good scenario for them. So they will continue to engage Pakistan in a way to meet it's minimum defence requirements and keep some sort of military balance in region.
> 
> US and West is also way too aware that sanctions have created way too much hatred in common people of Pakistan. In fact Hillary Clinton in her testimony to congressional committee said F 16 has become a symbol of US betrayal to Pakistanis. We should not have withheld those birds. It is printed on Pakistani memory as they have loved their F16 so much.
> 
> As of today, Eurofighter, F16, J10 and Grippen are on offer. If India drops Rafael, France will offer it without much hesitation. But they are not the full package that we are looking for. Just for one have faith. PAF commits mistakes, sure it does. But out of all three arms of military, it has been the best so far. It has outperformed others in wars. This happened while having to live under the shadow of much powerful Army.
> 
> The years you talk about like 2002-2005. Well Gen Mushshraf had resented PAF since Kargil. He has tried put blame on PAF for his planning failures. PAF was not even part of this plan to start with. Qaiser Tufail has testified to that.
> 
> Given what they have and the limited space they can wiggle in, PAF does a fine job.



HI,

The proof is in the pudding----the way that pak officers---let me say the general staff have acted---it does not show too much confidence in their abilities.

Grippen is not available for whatever reasons- anymore----and there s no reason to get it---F 16's we already have---Eurofighter has ways to go----.

You know what your attitude is---what your post says about Pakistan--it is that of a BOTTOM FEEDERS---you don't do your job in time---you have the opportunity of getting ahead of problems and yet you chose to fail---. And it is becoming a habbit of yours----you intentionally fail and then you cry about sanctions.

Musharraf and the nation should have reamed PAF----. PAF failed not because of sanctions but because of a someone who was supposedly too honest.

Even though there were American sanctions----French aircraft were available to paf---. The purchaser screwed up. Pakistan never needed the F16's---their mirages were good enough to take on anything that the Russians were flying across the border from afg---and know that they did---the first Russian aircraft were shot by the pak mirages---.

The initial purchase of F16's was a total blunder by the paf and Pakistan could never get out of the failure that paf forced it into.

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## trident2010

MastanKhan said:


> The initial purchase of F16's was a total blunder by the paf and Pakistan could never get out of the failure that paf forced it into.



Why you think F-16s are not good for PAF? These are the only planes IAF would be wary of.


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## MastanKhan

trident2010 said:


> Why you think F-16s are not good for PAF? These are the only planes IAF would be wary of.



Hi,

So we are talking about the early 80's when paf got the F 16's---is that right--and you want to know why it was not good for paf---. OK

There were two upcoming aircraft at that time the F16 and the mirage 2K---the F 16 came out a little earlier---. As much drama the paf had created about needing an aircraft of tis caliber was not real---. The Pakistani mirages were good enough for what Russians were flying in afg.

So--F16 was consider the best on a scale of 1---10 the F 16 was a 10. The next aircraft was mirage2K---on the same scale of 1---10 on a given day---it was considered a 9---9 1/2.

At the time the paf was looking foran aircraft---so was india looking for a potent multirole fighter as well. If paf had goen for the mirage 2K-----it would have delivered a coupe de grace on the IAF---. IAF would not have gotten the F 16's at that time for the USA and Pakistan would have gotten a extremely superior aircraft in the form of mirage 2K and denying iaf parity in the air.

By letting the gate open---the paf allowed the IAF to get an aircraft similar to the capabilities of the F 16 in the form of mirage 2K. That was one of the ultimate stupid decision of the paf---. They would go ahead and make anther big blunder by cancelling the procurement of the mirage 2K's in the 90's.

Simply put---after paf bought the F 16's----it allowed the second best aircraft mirage 2K to be bought by IAF----a totally brainless---thoughtless move---no common sense at all.

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## ArsalanKhan21

MastanKhan said:


> Currently---only Chinese----if rafale is cancelled by india then French as well.



France will not sell Rafale neither we should buy it. Pakistan should buy F-16 Block 50 and preferably Block 60. The new 36 F-16 Block 50 plus 150 JF-17 Block II and III will provide good defense.


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## Folkindia

If the indian Rafale deal comes to fruition and is signed. Simply purchasing 36 j-10b fighter jets in the hope to counter the state-of-the-art Rafale's will not suffice. Sure the indians will keep aside a 'healthy' amount for China, but whichever way you slice it, within Pakistan, the growing consensus should be to acquire around 50/60 high spec J-10's in order to appease and bridge the offset. In any case, the purchase of Rafale's certainly leaves Pakistan in a bit of a 'quandary' given their technological leap and potency. If i were Pakistan, i wouldn't feel inclined to rely on JF-17's as the answer, given it's 'infancy', until at least block-3 when it 'matures' and incorporates more sophisticated-technology. They are however, more than a viable option, for replacing ageing fighters and representing the minimum standard within the Pakistani Air Force.

Furthermore, let us remind ourselves, the indians field a colossal Su-30 fleet, coupled with the potential Rafale-jets it will undoubtedly leave Pakistan in a precarious situation and this cannot be accentuated enough. In my humble opinion, it would be a travesty to pursue the option of more F-16's given that they maybe subject to sanctions, should 'shit hit the fan', (delve into history). Thus, leaving very little 'avenues'/options for Pakistan to explore, barring around 50/60 high-spec J-10's (when the engine saga ends). However, it is pertinent to mention, owing to the buffoonery/antics of previous Prime Ministers, this seems extremely unlikely, with the budgetary/financial constraints being experienced and the less than inspiring economy. 

As an example: 
Ideally: (In my humble opinion what the Air Force should look like in the coming years, not sure if its entirely possible).

150 JF-17 block 2/3
60/70 J-10B
Existing F-16 fleet upgraded as possible.
36 J-31.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> SU and Mig can definitely happen IMO. Depends on how the negotiations are done. The Russians are needing money desperately due to sanctions so they'll sell anything to help their economy.



Yes with a book order or remaining 86 SU30 MKI, Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, 250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, AMur competeing for 6 Submarines in P75I, Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg, Nuclear Sub Lease, 3 Krivak IV Frigates, 39 Mig29K/KUB's, 48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another 18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, I am Sure Russians will be selling SU's and Migs to Pakistan....

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Yes with a book order or remaining 86 SU30 MKI, Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, 250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, AMur competeing for 6 Submarines in P75I, Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg, Nuclear Sub Lease, 3 Krivak IV Frigates, 39 Mig29K/KUB's, 48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another 18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, I am Sure Russians will be selling SU's and Migs to Pakistan....



Thanks for the wish list. When ALL these contracts are "actually" given to the Russians, let me know. Majority of this stuff may be coming towards the US / West also. 
Second, I can clearly tell you have no background in strategic planning. So let's leave it at that. Time will tell a different story, just watch next 5-7 years.


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## pursuit of happiness

orangzaib said:


> Thanks for the wish list. When ALL these contracts are "actually" given to the Russians, let me know. Majority of this stuff may be coming towards the US / West also.
> Second, I can clearly tell you have no background in strategic planning. So let's leave it at that. Time will tell a different story, just watch next 5-7 years.


---
ok you expert of strategic planning.. 
so what your point .. what you want to infer from your post .?


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## Folkindia

I'm guessing he wanted the 'likely list' and not the 'wish list'. 



pursuit of happiness said:


> ---
> ok you expert of strategic planning..
> so what your point .. what you want to infer from your post .?


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## WishLivePak

Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).

It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.


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## pursuit of happiness

Folkindia said:


> I'm guessing he wanted the 'likely list' and not the 'wish list'.


ok
lets see what in store 
*Confimred list *
86 SU30 MKI, 
*likely confirmed *
Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, (brahmos is key to india if not russia so it on )
Nuclear Sub Lease, (india can only get nulcear sub from russia so they are only one option )
18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, ( deal finalised when putin was in india just recetly ) 
*likely wish list *( its work wither is on or still not satarted but long way to seal it or its competition Russia may or may not get )
250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, ( on and working ) 
6 Submarines in P75I, ( no idea ) 
Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg,( i think its ordred but i dont know but kept in this category ) 
3 Krivak IV Frigates, ( no idea ) 
39 Mig29K/KUB's, ( no idea ) 
48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another (no idea ) 

----
india now in new age .. where it some how up to centain extent can say I WANT it or i dont want it to world.. 
Russia was and is indian best alley .. and reamin so and vice a versa.. but russian too have there problem of cost escalation and delivery issue.. 
it was unthinkable before 15 yr to say no to russia .. for deal.. 
thanks to economy , diplomacy now we have open gates.. 
we now say no to usa too .. and russia too like MMRCA as its based on indian requirment .. 
if you see pie of indian market is so large that everyone cn get good share and india too get right product..
how on earth you think india say no f16 IN and best in class figter as there was no TOT.. 
we gave it to frech.. as they giving TOT .. if now they have issue with it fine .. EFT is ready and waiining..
its just national intrest which india can now stand and say load and clear



WishLivePak said:


> Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).
> 
> It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.


--
first thing for any nation is education system..
any developnet in any field need people who work i scicne lab..
USA is ahead becuase it attrack best of best people in there scince lab in basic reseach .. 
russia is same as they excel basic science resecah.. 
china is going toward it.. 
so develope institution in pak for education and good visionary govt can make you wonders.. 
--
let me give exam.
despite china and india call to be emeeging market..
china as next super power they still cant work out engine tech.. they ahve money .. govt focus all but still not there.. as it need instituion - people -industry trio to build it .. china will make it today or tomorrow.. 
so hope india too


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## Folkindia

So what would your likely list look like in terms of numbers? just curious.. Im not sure more F-16's are a viable option, as they are sanction prone. Additionally, the US hasn't supplied Pakistan anything of note for quite some time. 

Ideally: (whilst not being overly optimistic)

150 JF-17 Block 2/3
60/70 J-10B
76 (approx) current F-16 fleet, upgraded as much as possible.
36 J-31





WishLivePak said:


> Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).
> 
> It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.


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## pursuit of happiness

Folkindia said:


> So what would your likely list look like in terms of numbers? just curious.. Im not sure more F-16's are a viable option, as they are sanction prone. Additionally, the US hasn't supplied Pakistan anything of note for quite some time.
> 
> Ideally: (whilst not being overly optimistic)
> 
> 150 JF-17 Block 2/3
> 60/70 J-10B
> 76 (approx) current F-16 fleet, upgraded as much as possible.
> 36 J-31
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE="WishLivePak, post: 6693520, member: 157277"]Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).
> 
> It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.


[/QUOTE]
--
they will get good number of f16 when f35 start coming ..
looking pak last performance they can get that clearnace from usa.. they may for f16


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## Folkindia

If Pakistan really must go for the F-16 option, they need to be of higher spec and a lot more of them. Around 60/70 newer models, complementing the existing F-16 fleet, potential 150 JF-17, before turning to a couple of squadrons of fifth generation fighters in the coming years. @pursuit of happiness 

Ps. Sorry not sure why it won't let me quote you, tagged you instead.


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## pursuit of happiness

Folkindia said:


> If Pakistan really must go for the F-16 option, they need to be of higher spec and a lot more of them. Around 60/70 newer models, complementing the existing F-16 fleet, potential 150 JF-17, before turning to a couple of squadrons of fifth generation fighters in the coming years. @pursuit of happiness
> 
> Ps. Sorry not sure why it won't let me quote you, tagged you instead.


--
thanks for tag..
if you put yourself in PAF position.. what ever aviable in budjet and can perform well is good for paf.. 
with all limitaton they still keeping boat a flot where its neigbours adding Sus and Rafael ( if they able to do) 
F16 is most desired option for them as all know.. they know that baby in and out .. and can get good blocks if west starts inducting f35s. 
JF -17 is good but no where near f16s .. so off the shelf f16 is good ... 
5th genration figter only aviablt from china.. but china is way long distance from same .. 
so what left is f16 ... jf17


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## Stephen Cohen

@MastanKhan

SIR A few points to counter your statement

1 )1980 - 82 That was the era of COLD war ; France was USA's ally as was Pakistan
IF USA wanted to DENY INDIA Mirage 2000 ; they could have done so
AS the USA has recently done in the case of* MISTRAL ships to Russia *

2 ) PAF did not just buy F 16 OFF the shelf ; they were a part of an AID package in 1980-82
because of the Afghan Conflict ; infact the aid package was around 4 BILLION USD

3) France did not offer any aid to India for Mirage 2000

4) It is very unlikely that USA would have given AID to Pakistan to buy French aircraft

5) India *immediately went for Mirage 2000 purchase ie* As soon as Pakistan signed the contract
for F 16 ; India signed the contract for Mirage 2000

AND EVEN before USA could supply all F 16s to Pakistan ; India had received its Mirages


6 ) Later on India ALSO bought Mig 23 / Mig 25 / Mig 27 / Jaguar / and *above all Mig 29 
to take on PAF 

All these were in our IAF till 1990 
*
India was aware that after Afghan conflict Pakistan would turn on Kashmir

SO we were well prepared for it

By 1990 when Benazir Bhutto was threatening a 1000 year war for Kashmir
IAF was much better than PAF


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## Folkindia

Well the JF-17's are meant to replace the existing ageing fleet and will represent as the minimum level fighter planes in Pakistan's Air Force. It is going from strength to strength, though the F-16 is in a heavier class of fighters, i suspect block 2/3 of these birds will be comparable. Particularly block-3.




pursuit of happiness said:


> --
> thanks for tag..
> if you put yourself in PAF position.. what ever aviable in budjet and can perform well is good for paf..
> with all limitaton they still keeping boat a flot where its neigbours adding Sus and Rafael ( if they able to do)
> F16 is most desired option for them as all know.. they know that baby in and out .. and can get good blocks if west starts inducting f35s.
> JF -17 is good but no where near f16s .. so off the shelf f16 is good ...
> 5th genration figter only aviablt from china.. but china is way long distance from same ..
> so what left is f16 ... jf17


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## MastanKhan

Stephen Cohen said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> SIR A few points to counter your statement
> 
> 1 )1980 - 82 That was the era of COLD war ; France was USA's ally as was Pakistan
> IF USA wanted to DENY INDIA Mirage 2000 ; they could have done so
> AS the USA has recently done in the case of* MISTRAL ships to Russia *
> 
> 2 ) PAF did not just buy F 16 OFF the shelf ; they were a part of an AID package in 1980-82
> because of the Afghan Conflict ; infact the aid package was around 4 BILLION USD
> 
> 3) France did not offer any aid to India for Mirage 2000
> 
> 4) It is very unlikely that USA would have given AID to Pakistan to buy French aircraft
> 
> 5) India *immediately went for Mirage 2000 purchase ie* As soon as Pakistan signed the contract
> for F 16 ; India signed the contract for Mirage 2000
> 
> AND EVEN before USA could supply all F 16s to Pakistan ; India had received its Mirages
> 
> 
> 6 ) Later on India ALSO bought Mig 23 / Mig 25 / Mig 27 / Jaguar / and *above all Mig 29
> to take on PAF
> 
> All these were in our IAF till 1990
> *
> India was aware that after Afghan conflict Pakistan would turn on Kashmir
> 
> SO we were well prepared for it
> 
> By 1990 when Benazir Bhutto was threatening a 1000 year war for Kashmir
> IAF was much better than PAF




Kaho Khait ki---suno Khalian Ki---

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## WishLivePak

Folkindia said:


> So what would your likely list look like in terms of numbers? just curious.. Im not sure more F-16's are a viable option, as they are sanction prone. Additionally, the US hasn't supplied Pakistan anything of note for quite some time.
> 
> Ideally: (whilst not being overly optimistic)
> 
> 150 JF-17 Block 2/3
> 60/70 J-10B
> 76 (approx) current F-16 fleet, upgraded as much as possible.
> 36 J-31


I am not air force research guy nor I look into numbers.

I am basing my assumption on that we won't be going on a war with India in the next 5 years (since we're fighting inside already). Thus, we should stick to budget aircrafts and learn from JF-17. After 5-10 years, start working on new 5h, 5.5 or 6 or whatever gen plane.



pursuit of happiness said:


> ok
> lets see what in store
> *Confimred list *
> 86 SU30 MKI,
> *likely confirmed *
> Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, (brahmos is key to india if not russia so it on )
> Nuclear Sub Lease, (india can only get nulcear sub from russia so they are only one option )
> 18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, ( deal finalised when putin was in india just recetly )
> *likely wish list *( its work wither is on or still not satarted but long way to seal it or its competition Russia may or may not get )
> 250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, ( on and working )
> 6 Submarines in P75I, ( no idea )
> Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg,( i think its ordred but i dont know but kept in this category )
> 3 Krivak IV Frigates, ( no idea )
> 39 Mig29K/KUB's, ( no idea )
> 48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another (no idea )
> 
> ----
> india now in new age .. where it some how up to centain extent can say I WANT it or i dont want it to world..
> Russia was and is indian best alley .. and reamin so and vice a versa.. but russian too have there problem of cost escalation and delivery issue..
> it was unthinkable before 15 yr to say no to russia .. for deal..
> thanks to economy , diplomacy now we have open gates..
> we now say no to usa too .. and russia too like MMRCA as its based on indian requirment ..
> if you see pie of indian market is so large that everyone cn get good share and india too get right product..
> how on earth you think india say no f16 IN and best in class figter as there was no TOT..
> we gave it to frech.. as they giving TOT .. if now they have issue with it fine .. EFT is ready and waiining..
> its just national intrest which india can now stand and say load and clear
> 
> 
> --
> first thing for any nation is education system..
> any developnet in any field need people who work i scicne lab..
> USA is ahead becuase it attrack best of best people in there scince lab in basic reseach ..
> russia is same as they excel basic science resecah..
> china is going toward it..
> so develope institution in pak for education and good visionary govt can make you wonders..
> --
> let me give exam.
> despite china and india call to be emeeging market..
> china as next super power they still cant work out engine tech.. they ahve money .. govt focus all but still not there.. as it need instituion - people -industry trio to build it .. china will make it today or tomorrow..
> so hope india too


We've good education, but everyone goes abroad to work and educated (Since outside world doesn't value Pakistani degrees highly, but Pakistan itself does).

When we have massive projects and pay handsomely, people will stay in Pakistan. Plus, as children see planes being made or high tech developments in Pakistan, they'll try to work hard for it (sort of like cricket. They love cricket, see it, they play on streets). Otherwise, their future will mostly be growing mango trees etc.


----------



## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Yes with a book order or remaining 86 SU30 MKI, Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, 250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, AMur competeing for 6 Submarines in P75I, Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg, Nuclear Sub Lease, 3 Krivak IV Frigates, 39 Mig29K/KUB's, 48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another 18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, I am Sure Russians will be selling SU's and Migs to Pakistan....



There were two recent thread opened on here today. One talks about a Times and Janes finding that Russia is providing a new jet engine for Pakistani JFT and the other mentions Sub deal. I guess the logic above doesn't work today, let alone a few years ago....


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## pursuit of happiness

orangzaib said:


> There were two recent thread opened on here today. One talks about a Times and Janes finding that Russia is providing a new jet engine for Pakistani JFT and the other mentions Sub deal. I guess the logic above doesn't work today, let alone a few years ago....


--
Russia have right to provide any one anythng they want..
they will not stake india for few $ and that with current scenario where with money they want diplomatic clout at there side..

they are provind RD engine via pak.. to send signal to india as money may not that much for them for those sale .. 
even pak gets sub from them fine.. its like IAF getting F16 as even we get those you guys know that in and out so same logic apply to subs in IN vs PN


----------



## trident2010

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So we are talking about the early 80's when paf got the F 16's---is that right--and you want to know why it was not good for paf---. OK
> 
> There were two upcoming aircraft at that time the F16 and the mirage 2K---the F 16 came out a little earlier---. As much drama the paf had created about needing an aircraft of tis caliber was not real---. The Pakistani mirages were good enough for what Russians were flying in afg.
> 
> So--F16 was consider the best on a scale of 1---10 the F 16 was a 10. The next aircraft was mirage2K---on the same scale of 1---10 on a given day---it was considered a 9---9 1/2.
> 
> At the time the paf was looking foran aircraft---so was india looking for a potent multirole fighter as well. If paf had goen for the mirage 2K-----it would have delivered a coupe de grace on the IAF---. IAF would not have gotten the F 16's at that time for the USA and Pakistan would have gotten a extremely superior aircraft in the form of mirage 2K and denying iaf parity in the air.
> 
> By letting the gate open---the paf allowed the IAF to get an aircraft similar to the capabilities of the F 16 in the form of mirage 2K. That was one of the ultimate stupid decision of the paf---. They would go ahead and make anther big blunder by cancelling the procurement of the mirage 2K's in the 90's.
> 
> Simply put---after paf bought the F 16's----it allowed the second best aircraft mirage 2K to be bought by IAF----a totally brainless---thoughtless move---no common sense at all.



Thanks for reply. But one can argue that in 80's US-Pak relations were much better than today and hence they did not anticipate the current scenario. No one can predict 30 years in future. And we all know the ultimate goal for pak forces was to get the best against the India and thats why they went for F-16s. In case, If PAF would have bought Mirage 2K then also India might have gone for Mirage 2K too since it was their only choice. With F-16s atleast for some time PAF had a qualitative edge over IAF but yes in US they chose as unreliable defence supplier as possible.

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## Gufi

MastanKhan said:


> In the mid to late 90's Dale Brown a fiction writer and an ex Navigator on a B52 and B1 bombers writes about a B52 megafortress----an aircraft capable of carrying and launching smart weapons alongwith BVR missiles----. He as these aircraft rebuilt and upgraded at special facitilies---and these aircraft play roles in his works of fiction.


impressive insight.... respect...


MastanKhan said:


> I do not know what Pakistani military teaches in military academy and how it trains it officers---. Whenever I have heard an interview with a military cadet---the only thing these moron can say is " I am ready to die for my country " and that is all the MANTRA they know--we will take the eyes out of the enemy is another one---we will break their faces is another one---we will break their teeth is a favorite also.


that is for mass consumption no one here cares about how and with what. But our officers are trained well and most teachers have received education/training from abroad also.


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## MastanKhan

trident2010 said:


> Thanks for reply. But one can argue that in 80's US-Pak relations were much better than today and hence they did not anticipate the current scenario. No one can predict 30 years in future. And we all know the ultimate goal for pak forces was to get the best against the India and thats why they went for F-16s. In case, If PAF would have bought Mirage 2K then also India might have gone for Mirage 2K too since it was their only choice. With F-16s atleast for some time PAF had a qualitative edge over IAF but yes in US they chose as unreliable defence supplier as possible.



Hi,

Pakistan was already a mirage user----the French really wanted Pakistan to get the M2K---it was a natural state of progression---. The F16's were not aid---they were paid for. Same thing with the ones that were sanctions---Pakistan paid the money upfront before delivery.

I doubt if france would have sold to india at that time if Pakistan was the first buyer---. But the ultimate tragedy was the cancelation f the deal in the 90's for a mere 2 or 3 million dollars supposed bribe.

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## AFlover

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan was already a mirage user----the French really wanted Pakistan to get the M2K---it was a natural state of progression---. The F16's were not aid---they were paid for. Same thing with the ones that were sanctions---Pakistan paid the money upfront before delivery.
> 
> I doubt if france would have sold to india at that time if Pakistan was the first buyer---. But the ultimate tragedy was the cancelation f the deal in the 90's for a mere 2 or 3 million dollars supposed bribe.


Folks, with every day that passes west will enlarge its distance from islamic countries u all know where the time will take to all towards.
U will see many indians in US lebortaries, space stattions, and learning/working in us & west but u will never see any muslims at these places let alone pakistan
I m off the view that even paf had bought mirages instead of 16s, paf would still have been under sanctions by france due to us influence
Whatever we alreday had bought was the last west will never give u any advance technology but to india
Pak should openly come out of us alliance should play its cards carefully, need more inclinations towards iran, russia china, should support brics transection system, stop accepting any sort of aid from us/west
over relaiance on us is sucidial especially defence, need to push for local products, look for business opportunities with gulf,ME and african countries
The currupt leaders and generals should come out of fears of us west.
Defence deals must be made transperants without kickbacks
Pak should not let go the russians offer void, she must buy some strategic birds, also should by J10C from china in 5yrs time u will know all in/out of this bird this will help to modify further as per requirements will be an alternate to f16s wen they will finish thei life, no embargo as well
PAF should buy J10C even india does not buy rafale and in 60-100 numbers


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Thanks for the wish list. When ALL these contracts are "actually" given to the Russians, let me know. Majority of this stuff may be coming towards the US / West also.
> Second, I can clearly tell you have no background in strategic planning. So let's leave it at that. Time will tell a different story, just watch next 5-7 years.



Dude most of your posts are rants of a teenager, tell me how many confirm pakistani deals does pakistan have with russia?

I may not have any background in strategic planning for defence acquisition, but you have a tough time grasping common sense.

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Dude most of your posts are rants of a teenager, tell me how many confirm pakistani deals does pakistan have with russia?
> 
> *I may not have any background in strategic planning for defence acquisition, but you have a tough time grasping common sense*.



No, you and your friends have a tough time accepting the fact that someone can do business outside of India. Apparently, what India does, a billion people glorify it so much as if its something unique, if someone does it (Specially Pakistan) or does it outside of after cutting through the Indian influence, its not going to happen.
The real rant if from a billion of you about how you and every other Indian is a superior being, when twenty years ago, life was entirely different on the planet India. Let's not over glorify India's influence on Russia and you won't see my post. Normal discussion doesn't mean jack to you guys. Stuff has to be demonized and marginalized if its about Pakistan. If its India, oh my God its the best thing since Cows produced milk!


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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> I doubt if france would have sold to india at that time if Pakistan was the first buyer---. But the ultimate tragedy was the cancelation f the deal in the 90's for a mere 2 or 3 million dollars supposed bribe.


The bribe my friend was a hefty 10 million dollars per plane. For 2 squadrons or 40 plane he wanted 400 million dollars so get your figures right.
Secondly a few months after Benazir's going PAF enquired again but the offer was withdrawn . As to embargoes yòur Augusta 90 B and Rose upgraded M3/5s were embargoed by the french in 2002 and delivered after a fair delay. So what happened with the US could have happened with---- sorry did happen with the french as well. Ah!! please also recall the reprocessing plant that was not delivered after the contract was signed. The point I am trying to make is that the french were equally guilty in the M2K affair and probably in cahoots with Zardari.
araz

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> No, you and your friends have a tough time accepting the fact that someone can do business outside of India. Apparently, what India does, a billion people glorify it so much as if its something unique, if someone does it (Specially Pakistan) or does it outside of after cutting through the Indian influence, its not going to happen.
> The real rant if from a billion of you about how you and every other Indian is a superior being, when twenty years ago, life was entirely different on the planet India. Let's not over glorify India's influence on Russia and you won't see my post. Normal discussion doesn't mean jack to you guys. Stuff has to be demonized and marginalized if its about Pakistan. If its India, oh my God its the best thing since Cows produced milk!


You do realize the you are only projecting your frustrations....Quite Sad.


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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> You do realize the you are only projecting your frustrations....Quite Sad.



Of course I am. When you can't have a logical, sensible debate with the other party because someone is blind sided with Indian patriotism ....others will get frustrated as the purpose behind coming on here is not to hear superior Indian crap. 

Its to engage each other in a sensible debate and learn from each other (result of such a debate may be that in a specific topic, the Indian item may be better than others). But you come to that conclusion with debate and facts, not because its an Indian thing so it must be superior.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Of course I am. When you can't have a logical, sensible debate with the other party because someone is blind sided with Indian patriotism ....others will get frustrated as the purpose behind coming on here is not to hear superior Indian crap.
> 
> Its to engage each other in a sensible debate and learn from each other (result of such a debate may be that in a specific topic, the Indian item may be better than others). But you come to that conclusion with debate and facts, not because its an Indian thing so it must be superior.



Dude, stop whining all the time.

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Stop this Indian propaganda stupidity all the time. Its silly as hell.....Indians built planes in the "vedic" age which would go across the planet??? The Indians had Telephone thousands of years ago??? They had Cars which would require one gas tank to go to the Moon in the "Vedic" age. The Doctors cured Cancer patients by spitting on people's faces in the "Vedic" age.......and it goes ON and ON with Brahmos II at the end!!! Great waste of thread space and usual trolling!


may be you forgot your prozac, all I said was it doesn't make sense to jeopardize a huge book order along with future projects with India to sell a few planes and helicopters to Pakistan. Now I did not realize that mentioning that will scar you for life, Thus please accept my apologies. Please Calm Down.


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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> may be you forgot your prozac, all I said was it doesn't make sense to jeopardize a huge book order along with future projects with India to sell a few planes and helicopters to Pakistan. Now I did not realize that mentioning that will scar you for life, Thus please accept my apologies. Please Calm Down.



I am calm. Just don't start discussions based on a wish list that has no legally executed contract behind it. I could've just as easily said " the Russians will be building space ships with Pakistan in 2030 worth 2 trillion and they'd ditch India for it". Well, I do sound like you here but is this a good argument or a discussion point or even TRUE? NO!! I am making crap up for others to be impressed and that's BS argument.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> I am calm. Just don't start discussions based on a wish list that has no legally executed contract behind it. I could've just as easily said " the Russians will be building space ships with Pakistan in 2030 worth 2 trillion and they'd ditch India for it". Well, I do sound like you here but is this a good argument or a discussion point or even TRUE? NO!! I am making crap up for others to be impressed and that's BS argument.


Your lack of comprehension is not my problem, I mentioned 86 remaining MKI, which is remnant of confirmed book order of 272 A/c's, so is 488 Brahmos, and so are 38 More Mig29K's from the original order of 55 units. Rest are the deals under negotiation or in bidding. If you cannot decipher such simple sentences then you have other problems to worry about.
,.............
and guess what, none of them were made up. But then again, your argument is age appropriate.

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## araz

sandy_3126 said:


> Your lack of comprehension is not my problem, I mentioned 86 remaining MKI, which is remnant of confirmed book order of 272 A/c's, so is 488 Brahmos, and so are 38 More Mig29K's from the original order of 55 units. Rest are the deals under negotiation or in bidding. If you cannot decipher such simple sentences then you have other problems to worry about.
> ,.............
> and guess what, none of them were made up. But then again, your argument is age appropriate.


Sandy.
We accept established orders but orders on the process are not orders till the real is signed. This is an established rule.You count the chicken once they have hatched notthe eggs.
The fact of the matter is Indian policy makers delay deals for decades and Indian procurement plans are way behind. The Rafale deal is not going well and I gather there is no allocation at least in this budget for procurement of the planes. So we have to see how this deal goes but it does not look good at the moment. For WHAT it is worth I dont see PAF procuring much from the Russians either due to resource constraints. The next procurement is likely to be the J31 and perhaps a few more old F16s.
Araz

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## zeeshanvita

I have a strong gut feeling that in this trip of Raheel Shareef visit to china J10 deal will be finalized as well as Z10..


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## MilSpec

araz said:


> Sandy.
> We accept established orders but orders on the process are not orders till the real is signed. This is an established rule.You count the chicken once they have hatched notthe eggs.
> The fact of the matter is Indian policy makers delay deals for decades and Indian procurement plans are way behind. The Rafale deal is not going well and I gather there is no allocation at least in this budget for procurement of the planes. So we have to see how this deal goes but it does not look good at the moment. For WHAT it is worth I dont see PAF procuring much from the Russians either due to resource constraints. The next procurement is likely to be the J31 and perhaps a few more old F16s.
> Araz


And the above makes perfect sense. I too see Chinese armament being the main stay for Pakistan and a very potent counter balance for India.


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## N/A

zeeshanvita said:


> I have a strong gut feeling that in this trip of Raheel Shareef visit to china J10 deal will be finalized as well as Z10..


THAT WOULD BE A REAL BIG BOOST TO THE DEFENSE OF PAKISTAN, BUT WHY DO YOU THINK THE DEALS FOR THE J-10 AND Z-10 WILL BE SIGNED


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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Your lack of comprehension is not my problem, I mentioned 86 remaining MKI, which is remnant of confirmed book order of 272 A/c's, so is 488 Brahmos, and so are 38 More Mig29K's from the original order of 55 units. Rest are the deals under negotiation or in bidding. If you cannot decipher such simple sentences then you have other problems to worry about.
> ,.............
> and guess what, none of them were made up. But then again, your argument is age appropriate.



Look dude, you are posting things here that require common sense. You told me in a different post that you have an engineering background. I think you should post with some sensible logic. Future forecast can't play a role in today's situation. I think India would give billions of worth of business to the Russians. But something needs to be finalized first and a legal contract has to be executed. Do you count your bank balance by including next 2 years expected salaries in it? What if something happens and you leave work.....? Your entire forecast is screwed. Similarly, future wish list or things in discussion aren't factual. They will be, once a contract is signed. That's all I am saying. 

I think Pakistan will buy stuff from the Russians but it'll be some SAMS and helicopters. If I was responsible for procurement, I'd procure SAMS (the long range ones) and a few heli's, which are desperately needed for the war on terrorism. That's it. Why go to Russia when the Chinese have started to produce almost the same if not better products? Their helicopters are designed on Western tech (baseline is the Eurocopter) and the new Z series designs are much more Western than the traditional Russian designs, half-manual / half automatic MI heli's. Plus whatever is needed from the Russians, Pakistan can get (and have been getting) through the Chinese. I think that's very credible. 

Here's what the Chinese are up against, they are up against the best of the best weapons systems that exist from the US, Israel, and the West. And these systems will soon be assembled in India. Which will ONLY enhance India's weapons quality. So what choice do the Chinese have? To go nuts with research and all and produce weapons that actually can counter the Western / Indian systems than just crap produced in numbers (historically). So they have and will be pouring hundreds of billions in R&D, which is a burden on them as they can't sell so much to the outside world to circulate the cash. Guess what? It DIRECTLY benefits Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan is probably the biggest benefactor of Chinese weapons modernization.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What would the Air cheif feel now that Obama is visiting India 

Those 36 J10B look wonderful now don't they


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## N/A

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What would the Air cheif feel now that Obama is visiting India
> 
> Those 36 J10B look wonderful now don't they


WHY DO YOU THINK THAT PAKISTAN WILL GET THOSE 36 J-10B'S NOW. I MEAN IT WOULD BE A GREAT BOOST TO THE PAF.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Oh yes we will get those F16 , and lets ignore the 36 J10B birds


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## Folkindia

36 J-10b fighters won't cut it, if the Rafale deal is officially contracted. Pakistan would require around 60 J-10b's to balance the offset, but that's just my two cents worth. (Yes the financial constraints, will likely not allow that amount to be procured).



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What would the Air cheif feel now that Obama is visiting India
> 
> Those 36 J10B look wonderful now don't they


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## N/A

Folkindia said:


> 36 J-10b fighters won't cut it, if the Rafale deal is officially contracted. Pakistan would require around 60 J-10b's to balance the offset, but that's just my two cents worth. (Yes the financial constraints, will likely not allow that amount to be procured).


THE PAF HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRAINED TO FIGHT OUTNUMBERED SINCE 65


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## Viper0011.

Folkindia said:


> 36 J-10b fighters won't cut it, if the Rafale deal is officially contracted. Pakistan would require around 60 J-10b's to balance the offset, but that's just my two cents worth. (Yes the financial constraints, will likely not allow that amount to be procured).



My two cents:
1) Buy more used MLU'd F-16's with upgraded radars for air defense / interception needs
2) JFT block II and stealthy JFT block III work needs to go into supersonic mode. Expedite it. You'd still have time as Rafale's won't start coming in tomorrow "war ready"
3) Get J-31 and try to come up with a JV on its tech towards the JFT block III so you can produce a stealthy variant yourself (or majority of it)
4) If J-31 take time, get 60-100 J-11's or J-16's (land version) or even lease them till J-31 becomes operational

The above should fill the gap very well. By 2018 having 200 JFT block II standards, 100 JFT block III with stealth optimized, with 100 F-16's block 40+ (used ANG, USAF ones with upgraded radars), 60-100 J-16s and about 100 J-31's means around 550-600 jets with current standards. PLENTY to defend any airspace.

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## Folkindia

Would not constitute a shrewd decision to rely on past laurels all the time.. It is of paramount importance that Pakistan acquires a greater number of J-10b's and there is a growing need to shift from this defensiveness, 'minimum deterrence' doctrine. Sure india will likely keep a significant level of fighters for China, but doesn't appease the need for Pakistan to balance the offset.

Future Air Force: (In my opinion, this should be the target, of course not being overly ambitious).

150 JF-17 block 2/3
Current F-16 fleet fully upgraded.
60/70 J-10b
36 J-31




SquadronLeaderDin said:


> THE PAF HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRAINED TO FIGHT OUTNUMBERED SINCE 65

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## rockstar08

there is no upcoming procurement i see from PAF , besides those used F-16's ...
no new platform, no heavy fighters ,only 16's are capable of giving tough time to mki's and MK2's of IAF , rest is not sure ...

i believe PAF and PN is run by some Corrupt Generals


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## Folkindia

Sounds good. Not too sure if that's entirely possible given the current, sorry state of affairs. Hopefully, they will have a significantly larger amount of fighters available at their disposal by 2020 max to counter the growing Indian Air Force. Just out of interest, in terms of a value, your proposed plan would cost how much realistically?



orangzaib said:


> My two cents:
> 1) Buy more used MLU'd F-16's with upgraded radars for air defense / interception needs
> 2) JFT block II and stealthy JFT block III work needs to go into supersonic mode. Expedite it. You'd still have time as Rafale's won't start coming in tomorrow "war ready"
> 3) Get J-31 and try to come up with a JV on its tech towards the JFT block III so you can produce a stealthy variant yourself (or majority of it)
> 4) If J-31 take time, get 60-100 J-11's or J-16's (land version) or even lease them till J-31 becomes operational
> 
> The above should fill the gap very well. By 2018 having 200 JFT block II standards, 100 JFT block III with stealth optimized, with 100 F-16's block 40+ (used ANG, USAF ones with upgraded radars), 60-100 J-16s and about 100 J-31's means around 550-600 jets with current standards. PLENTY to defend any airspace.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> I think Pakistan will buy stuff from the Russians but it'll be *some SAMS and helicopters.* If I was responsible for procurement, I'd procure SAMS (the long range ones) and a few heli's, which are desperately needed for the war on terrorism. That's it. Why go to Russia when the Chinese have started to produce almost the same if not better products? Their helicopters are designed on Western tech (baseline is the Eurocopter) and the new Z series designs are much more Western than the traditional Russian designs, half-manual / half automatic MI heli's.



Now, you are starting to make sense.I wondn't have commented if your initial argument reflected the above, my comment restricts itself to Su's and Migs. Rest of it is correct.

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## sancho

araz said:


> For WHAT it is worth I dont see PAF procuring much from the Russians either *due to resource constraints*.



And that's the crucial part in nearly all deals for PAF for years, be it JF 17 upgrades with French systems, be it a more advanced JF17 Block 2 upgrade, be it the J10B procurement..., all that was mainly based on the lack of funds. But that's what some dreamers simply keep ignoring when they talk about Mig's, Su's or 500 to 600 modern fighters in PAF. So it doesn't really matter what India does, the first constraint is in Pakistan itself!
More importantly, the MMRCA has no relation to PAF either, surely not from our side, since the upgrades on the Mig 29, M2K and the ongoing procurement of MKI's alone provides IAF with a technical and numerical superiority, which also doesn't change if IAF is forced to phase out Mig 21s and 27s earlier than expected. So any procurement of PAF for new fighters, would have to counter the existing fleet and capabilities first, even without considering MMRCAs, which brings us full circle again, since even that is limited by resource resource constraints, financially and also politically with the limitations the US put of PAFs' F16 capabilities. 
The only way to counter IAF is not to aim on similar numbers of similar fighers, but to add game changers / force multipliers! The addition of AWACS and Tanker aircrafts that are fully compatible with JF 17, along with a good Chinese weapon pack, gave PAF far more capability, than the comple F16 fleet. PAF now is able to detect threats far earlier, which reduces the reaction time, but at the same time is able to increase it's reach and endurance via IFR or the use of stand off weapons. That's where PAF used it's resources in the most effective way and not by adding more, but limited F16s. The next such game changer will be the J31, since that again expands PAF's capabilities much further, even in lower numbers.

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Now, you are starting to make sense.I wondn't have commented if your initial argument reflected the above, my comment restricts itself to Su's and Migs. Rest of it is correct.



That's where we disconnect. You are overly confident about India's leverage over the Russians. There is something called two countries do business and then there is something called, survival. In the later, a country or human will go build whatever relationships it perceives important. 
With POTUS's land mark visit to India, expect more Russian cooperation with any country that's not pro-US. Its just the name of the game. If Pakistan's economy grows to 40% from where it is today and it can pay cash, trust me. The SU's or the Typhoons are only a contract away. Russians or the French will sell anything for cash. In this case, they get to steal a small portion of the usual American business too. So don't discount the leverage anyone can have with a few billion dollars cash, specially when it is trade partner (which Pakistan will become with Russia after the trade corridor and the rail link is established through China).



sancho said:


> And that's the crucial part in nearly all deals for PAF for years, be it JF 17 upgrades with French systems, be it a more advanced JF17 Block 2 upgrade, be it the J10B procurement..., all that was mainly based on the lack of funds. But that's what *some dreamers simply keep ignoring* *when they talk about Mig's, Su's or 500 to 600 modern fighters in PAF*. So it doesn't really matter what India does, the first constraint is in Pakistan itself!
> *More importantly, the MMRCA has no relation to PAF either, surely not from our side*, since the upgrades on the Mig 29, M2K and the ongoing procurement of MKI's alone provides IAF with a technical and numerical superiority, which also doesn't change if IAF is forced to phase out Mig 21s and 27s earlier than expected. So any procurement of PAF for new fighters, would have to counter the existing fleet and capabilities first, even without considering MMRCAs, which brings us full circle again, since even that is limited by resource resource constraints, financially and also politically with the limitations the US put of PAFs' F16 capabilities.
> The only way to counter IAF is not to aim on similar numbers of similar fighers, but to add game changers / force multipliers! The addition of AWACS and Tanker aircrafts that are fully compatible with JF 17, along with a good Chinese weapon pack, gave PAF far more capability, than the comple F16 fleet. PAF now is able to detect threats far earlier, which reduces the reaction time, but at the same time is able to increase it's reach and endurance via IFR or the use of stand off weapons. That's where PAF used it's resources in the most effective way and not by adding more, but limited F16s. The next such game changer will be the J31, since that again expands PAF's capabilities much further, even in lower numbers.



I think you are discrediting many factors here, your post doesn't provide comprehensive view of the situation. One thing I agree with you is the fact that the first constraint is Pakistan itself. They have to change a lot of things if they want to prosper and be something important on the world map. No doubt about it. But for the PAF, if the economy grew 30% more than where it is today, it will do wonders and magic. What you ignored is this:
1) India has much larger dreams and the US is supportive of its dreams of becoming a regional power. BUT.....if India gets into a messy war with Pakistan and loses over 200 of its 4th gen jets plus billions in trade related damages......is it worth it? HECK NO! Its in India's interest to look and feel big to the world and not let a small country like Pakistan take it for a ride in front of the world. This doesn't mean Pakistan won't suffer, they might lose all of their air force. But...India, trying to be much bigger power, loses the most. Reputation is a biatch, it works in your favor and small crap destroys it too.
2) India has two immediate issues (and most serious ones), unlike the US, she doesn't enjoy thousands of miles worth of distance from all major conflict zone. She has another regional power next door and another atomic arch rival on the other next door. So at any given time, in addition to India's global ambitions, she has to watch out for both next door neighbors. This is where it gets tricky. Say you have 600 total planes dedicated to Chinese and to the Pakistani border (300 on each side). In a way like scenario with Pakistan, you move a 100 or so towards Pakistan. But remember, Pakistan doesn't face two enemies. It just has India. So, at any given time, the PAF will not face the ENTIRE IAF. So the parity will be down to 1:1.5 or 1:2. With JFT BVR capable getting inducted and good SAM systems, potentially more F-16's, you are risking a huge portion of IAF"s strike force. Whether you take down half the PAF before the world gets in and stops the mess, is a different story. But losing 120-200 of your top end aircraft will be a huge blow to IAF. It'll get weaker for the next 5-7 years and will have severe issues in projecting power to how it wants to.

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## gslv mk3

orangzaib said:


> hen ALL these contracts are "actually" given to the Russians, let me know.



All JV projects mentioned there are work in progress.


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## princefaisal

Yes, no J-10b for Pakistan when J-10C is out there. 

Zhang Zhaozhong, a military expert at the National Defense University (NDU), said in an interview with reporters from the China Central Television (CCTV) that the J-10B fighter is at least 30 percent better than the J-10A fighter in overall performance. So being a single engine fighter, PAF should also evaluate the J-10C aircraft.

According to the global aviation report published in 2nd Feb 2014, China believes PLAAF’s J-10C fighter may be able to surpass U.S. and European counterparts.

Equipped with active phased array radar and avionic system similar to the J-20, the Sina Military Network stressed that the J-10C can be more powerful than the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale“

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## araz

sancho said:


> And that's the crucial part in nearly all deals for PAF for years, be it JF 17 upgrades with French systems, be it a more advanced JF17 Block 2 upgrade, be it the J10B procurement..., all that was mainly based on the lack of funds. But that's what some dreamers simply keep ignoring when they talk about Mig's, Su's or 500 to 600 modern fighters in PAF. So it doesn't really matter what India does, the first constraint is in Pakistan itself!
> More importantly, the MMRCA has no relation to PAF either, surely not from our side, since the upgrades on the Mig 29, M2K and the ongoing procurement of MKI's alone provides IAF with a technical and numerical superiority, which also doesn't change if IAF is forced to phase out Mig 21s and 27s earlier than expected. So any procurement of PAF for new fighters, would have to counter the existing fleet and capabilities first, even without considering MMRCAs, which brings us full circle again, since even that is limited by resource resource constraints, financially and also politically with the limitations the US put of PAFs' F16 capabilities.
> The only way to counter IAF is not to aim on similar numbers of similar fighers, but to add game changers / force multipliers! The addition of AWACS and Tanker aircrafts that are fully compatible with JF 17, along with a good Chinese weapon pack, gave PAF far more capability, than the comple F16 fleet. PAF now is able to detect threats far earlier, which reduces the reaction time, but at the same time is able to increase it's reach and endurance via IFR or the use of stand off weapons. That's where PAF used it's resources in the most effective way and not by adding more, but limited F16s. The next such game changer will be the J31, since that again expands PAF's capabilities much further, even in lower numbers.


Mostly agree with your post except one proviso. The MMRCA contract will affect the PAF procurement and other plans irrespective of how IAF thinks because no one in their right Minds would leave Out the Rafale if there was a confrontation in the region. Unlike gungho internet arm chair generals PAF has quietly gone down the route you have predicted. The utility of the 16s is something which is undeniable. We know the plane inside out and then some more. The fact we keep buying bl.15s to MLU is a testament to the logic of big bang for the buck



princefaisal said:


> Yes, no J-10b for Pakistan when J-10C is out there.
> 
> Zhang Zhaozhong, a military expert at the National Defense University (NDU), said in an interview with reporters from the China Central Television (CCTV) that the J-10B fighter is at least 30 percent better than the J-10A fighter in overall performance. So being a single engine fighter, PAF should also evaluate the J-10C aircraft.
> 
> According to the global aviation report published in 2nd Feb 2014, China believes PLAAF’s J-10C fighter may be able to surpass U.S. and European counterparts.
> 
> Equipped with active phased array radar and avionic system similar to the J-20, the Sina Military Network stressed that the J-10C can be more powerful than the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale“


Keep on dreaming Son. J10 D would be absolutely awesome. But PAF buying j10 !!!!! Sorry to disappoint you but aint gonna happen.
Araz


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## sancho

Viper0011. said:


> One thing I agree with you is the fact that the first constraint is Pakistan itself.



Such a long post, but at least one scentence that makes sense, even if it counters nearly all you said earlier. If you admit that Pakistan has this constraints, you automatically have to admit that PAF can't make Russia any proposal that would be interesting enough to counter even the current orders of MKIs, Mig 29Ks and Mi 17s, or even remotly risk the relations to India. 
There will be of course a Russian aim to sell some stuff to Pakistan and I even hope for more RD 93, Mi 17 and Mi 35 sales, because that means we have to spend less to keep Russian arms industry alive, while these arms hardly pose a threat to India, but that's of course far away from your theories. 
The rest is just a flawed analysis and takes us even further away from the topic, so lets leave it at that.




araz said:


> Mostly agree with your post except one proviso. The MMRCA contract will affect the PAF procurement and other plans irrespective of how IAF thinks because no one in their right Minds would leave Out the Rafale if there was a confrontation in the region.



IAF of course wouldn't leave it out, since they will be stationed to an extend alongside Pakistans border too, simply by the fact that they are replacing older Mig squadrons. The point however is, that it doesn't make sense for PAF to make a so called counter procurement, because they would have to do the same for the other mentioned IAF fighters too. So MMRCA can't force PAF to a reaction, but the IAF fleet and it's capabilities as such.Even if IAF wouldn't buy Rafales anymore and "just" add more upgraded MKIs instead, it still would be the same counter of a fleet that PAF would need to consider, not of a specific fighter.


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## araz

sancho said:


> Such a long post, but at least one scentence that makes sense, even if it counters nearly all you said earlier. If you admit that Pakistan has this constraints, you automatically have to admit that PAF can't make Russia any proposal that would be interesting enough to counter even the current orders of MKIs, Mig 29Ks and Mi 17s, or even remotly risk the relations to India.
> There will be of course a Russian aim to sell some stuff to Pakistan and I even hope for more RD 93, Mi 17 and Mi 35 sales, because that means we have to spend less to keep Russian arms industry alive, while these arms hardly pose a threat to India, but that's of course far away from your theories.
> The rest is just a flawed analysis and takes us even further away from the topic, so lets leave it at that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF of course wouldn't leave it out, since they will be stationed to an extend alongside Pakistans border too, simply by the fact that they are replacing older Mig squadrons. The point however is, that it doesn't make sense for PAF to make a so called counter procurement, because they would have to do the same for the other mentioned IAF fighters too. So MMRCA can't force PAF to a reaction, but the IAF fleet and it's capabilities as such.Even if IAF wouldn't buy Rafales anymore and "just" add more upgraded MKIs instead, it still would be the same counter of a fleet that PAF would need to consider, not of a specific fighter.


I dont think the confidence level between the two is such that you wont have a counter to any acquisition by IAF and vice versa. The limitation is of not having a plane to plane competition but more of maintenance of enough of a deterrence to ward off any aggressive designs. I wish it were not the case but the reality is unfortunately otherwise. It does not help that the other players in the region are facilitating this aggressive posturing by their own means to advance their own purposes. But the basic fault is ours.
araz

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## kaonalpha

General's or orrMarshall8, post: 6700464, member: 149533"]there is no upcoming procurement i see from PAF , besides those used F-16's ...
no new platform, no heavy fighters ,only 16's are capable of giving tough time to mki's and MK2's of IAF , rest is not sure ...

i believe PAF and PN is run by some Corrupt Generals [/QUOTE]
Generals or Air marshal


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## MastanKhan

kaonalpha said:


> General's or orrMarshall8, post: 6700464, member: 149533"]there is no upcoming procurement i see from PAF , besides those used F-16's ...
> no new platform, no heavy fighters ,only 16's are capable of giving tough time to mki's and MK2's of IAF , rest is not sure ...
> 
> i believe PAF and PN is run by some Corrupt Generals


Generals or Air marshal[/QUOTE]

Air marshalls are generals as well. U S military does not use air marshall for their air forces---but uses same ranks as of army.


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> *Such a long post, but at least one scentence that makes sense*, even if it counters nearly all you said earlier. If you admit that Pakistan has this constraints, you automatically have to admit that PAF can't make Russia any proposal that would be interesting enough to counter even the current orders of MKIs, Mig 29Ks and Mi 17s, or even remotly risk the relations to India.
> There will be of course a Russian aim to sell some stuff to Pakistan and I even hope for more RD 93, Mi 17 and Mi 35 sales, because that means we have to spend less to keep Russian arms industry alive, while these arms hardly pose a threat to India, but that's of course far away from your theories.
> The rest is just a flawed analysis and takes us even further away from the topic, so lets leave it at that..



Typical of you. The ONLY sentence from my post that makes sense to you, is not because it actually does make sense. It because "I agreed with you". This is the Indian community's behavior on anything about Pakistan or India. If others agree with you, they make sense. If they don't, they are bashed, called names, races, etc, etc. If you guys can drop the ego issue, I am sure a lot of different topics would become easier to discuss and will have positive outcome than propaganda.

And let's revisit the content, Pakistan has constraints "TODAY". Three years from now, its a different story. If you, in your previous posts, can count stuff that you were to give to the Russians over the next ten years (and without a contract existing at this point); I am just counting the fact that Pakistan's economy would have advanced a bit. Not counting anything in the future that it might get from Russia or get offers for. 

Lastly, the world is changing and you need to see it too. When President Obama decided to come to India without visiting Pakistan. The change was made public, that relations with India and Pakistan are no longer ONE connected string of relations. These are separate relationships and have their own importance. 

The SAME statement was made public by the Russians when they said they would offer Heli's, Engines and all to Pakistan. It was an announcement of the same change that Russia will have defense relationships with both, India and Pakistan. They may never sell the same exact jet to Pakistan, but they'll offer other platforms when the time comes.


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## davidwang

Hakan said:


> Isn't india going to get the Pak Fa? So what is Pakistan going to do to counter this threat?


better avionics and better AMRAAMs

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## The SC

Folkindia said:


> Would not constitute a shrewd decision to rely on past laurels all the time.. It is of paramount importance that Pakistan acquires a greater number of J-10b's and there is a growing need to shift from this defensiveness, 'minimum deterrence' doctrine. Sure india will likely keep a significant level of fighters for China, but doesn't appease the need for Pakistan to balance the offset.
> 
> Future Air Force: (In my opinion, this should be the target, of course not being overly ambitious).
> 
> 150 JF-17 block 2/3
> Current F-16 fleet fully upgraded.
> 60/70 J-10b
> 36 J-31



I would say that is phase1, phase 2 will be phase1 plus:
100 JF-17 Block 3
36/40 used but potent F-16s
another 36 J-31s
72 J-10 B or C can be acquired for the price of 36, since the first 36 batch was offered for free to Pakistan not long ago.
I will take this one out of phase 1, waiting to see if the Rafale deal with India will go through...
J-10 B or C has some edge over the Rafale in BVR distance as well as in top flight ceiling with a look down shoot down advantage.going to the J-10s...

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## Last Samuri

The sc

Stop making rubbish up.

The chinease are nit giving you free fighters .

Abd the j10 is way inferior to the rafale. And even the block 52,f16..

*paf air force itself acknowledged the USA falcons are better than the j10 anddecided to get more used fslcon s


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## Dalit

Last Samuri said:


> The sc
> 
> Stop making rubbish up.
> 
> The chinease are nit giving you free fighters .
> 
> Abd the j10 is way inferior to the rafale. And even the block 52,f16..
> 
> *paf air force itself acknowledged the USA falcons are better than the j10 anddecided to get more used fslcon s



Shut up and listen.

Firstly, if you think that we only rely on fighter jets to counter aggression i.e. threats think again. The air force is merely a tiny component of the total military spectrum.

Secondly, the PAF has adequate means at its disposal to counter aggressive manoeuvres within its borders. The PAF isn't designed with the intent to invade and occupy the airspace of another nation. The PAF with its limited budget resources is primarily entrusted with a defensive role. The current fleet along with future acquisitions suffice to carry out the defensive tasks. Therefore, the PAF doesn't even need F-22s or F-35s to safeguard its skies. Get that through your thick skull.

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## wiseone2

Horus said:


> In a recent interview with JF-17 Thunder's deputy project director, Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood by Air Force Monthly, a question was brought up regarding J-10B/FC-20 acquisition proposal. He stated the reasons why Pakistan doesn't need/can't afford another 4+ generation fighter when we are developing JF-17s in advanced blocks and our F-16 MLU-MIII upgrade is coming along well with the new Block-52+ squadron. He also suggested that our analysts and strategic planners should think about 5th generation acquisition in the future instead of buying up another 4+ generation aircraft. Please note that this doesn't mean to imply that the J-10B is somehow 'inferior'. The hypothesis is that PAF doesn't need capabilities it already has, it needs to look ahead.



maybe China does not want to sell it to the PAF ?
China needs to keep its military secrets


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## Dr. Strangelove

wiseone2 said:


> maybe China does not want to sell it to the PAF ?
> China needs to keep its military secrets


they offered an entire squadron for free we rejected

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## Shabi1

wiseone2 said:


> maybe China does not want to sell it to the PAF ?
> China needs to keep its military secrets



Wrong, China has never objected on handing technology..

The J-10 was supposed to take over PAFs frontline role from the F-16s which was why they were working with China for a customized version named the FC-20. Once PAF got the F-16 upgrades and additional Block-52s, their urgency decreased. They were still under consideration as a counter to India's Rafale acquisition. But since thats delayed and the JF-17s have turned out much better than expected in terms of new capabilities. PAF can now delay acquiring a new aircraft and wait for the J-31, Chinese sources and experts already talking of PAF being the first customer once its ready.


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## wiseone2

Shabi1 said:


> Wrong, China has never objected on handing technology..
> 
> The J-10 was supposed to take over PAFs frontline role from the F-16s which was why they were working with China for a customized version named the FC-20. Once PAF got the F-16 upgrades and additional Block-52s, their urgency decreased. They were still under consideration as a counter to India's Rafale acquisition. But since thats delayed and the JF-17s have turned out much better than expected in terms of new capabilities. PAF can now delay acquiring a new aircraft and wait for the J-31, Chinese sources and experts already talking of PAF being the first customer once its ready.



Look at it this way - China has potential military rivals in Japan, Taiwan and USA. If they keep the latest aircraft within China they can protect the military secrets of J-10 a lot better. if they sell it the PAF the probability of the secrets leaking to America increases a lot.

i dunno how good the J-10 is

America is not offering the f-22 to any one of its closest friends. a lot of critical f-35 technologies are not being shared with close allies


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## Shabi1

wiseone2 said:


> Look at it this way - China has potential military rivals in Japan, Taiwan and USA. If they keep the latest aircraft within China they can protect the military secrets of J-10 a lot better. if they sell it the PAF the probability of the secrets leaking to America increases a lot.
> 
> i dunno how good the J-10 is
> 
> America is not offering the f-22 to any one of its closest friends. a lot of critical f-35 technologies are not being shared with close allies


Well you can have your opinion...
But thats not the dynamics of Pak and China relations.

When it comes to Chinese tech, Pakistan has unrestricted access. You need to do some reading up, its PAF which has refused to induct J-10s.

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## wiseone2

Shabi1 said:


> Well you can have your opinion...
> But thats not the dynamics of Pak and China relations.
> 
> When it comes to Chinese tech, Pakistan has unrestricted access. You need to do some reading up, its PAF which has refused to induct J-10s.



China has its own national interests


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## Viper0011.

wiseone2 said:


> Look at it this way - China has potential military rivals in Japan, Taiwan and USA. If they keep the latest aircraft within China they can protect the military secrets of J-10 a lot better. if they sell it the PAF the probability of the secrets leaking to America increases a lot.
> 
> America is not offering the f-22 to any one of its closest friends. a lot of critical f-35 technologies are not being shared with close allies



I think your logic is flawed, J-10 is not F-22..... And China has a lot more potent fighters based on the SU series that it can protect and keep as secrets, compared to J-10, which is an Israeli design. Just by looking at it, you can make a lot of good estimation on its capabilities. I classify it as better that Mirage 2000-5, but slightly inferior to the Rafale.

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## SafShikan

Horus said:


> In a recent interview with JF-17 Thunder's deputy project director, Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood by Air Force Monthly, a question was brought up regarding J-10B/FC-20 acquisition proposal. He stated the reasons why Pakistan doesn't need/can't afford another 4+ generation fighter when we are developing JF-17s in advanced blocks and our F-16 MLU-MIII upgrade is coming along well with the new Block-52+ squadron. He also suggested that our analysts and strategic planners should think about 5th generation acquisition in the future instead of buying up another 4+ generation aircraft. Please note that this doesn't mean to imply that the J-10B is somehow 'inferior'. The hypothesis is that PAF doesn't need capabilities it already has, it needs to look ahead.


what about j31...are we going to purchase them or to make them at PAC ? A new variant with single and more powerful engine can be a good idea...is there any progress in this area ?


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## wiseone2

Viper0011. said:


> I think your logic is flawed, J-10 is not F-22..... And China has a lot more potent fighters based on the SU series that it can protect and keep as secrets, compared to J-10, which is an Israeli design. Just by looking at it, you can make a lot of good estimation on its capabilities. I classify it as better that Mirage 2000-5, but slightly inferior to the Rafale.



J-10 is most advanced indigenious fighter in PLAAF inventory
People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the rest are copies of Su-27 and Su-30


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## pursuit of happiness

Dr. Stranglove said:


> they offered an entire squadron for free we rejected


--
chian and free 
good joke


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## Viper0011.

wiseone2 said:


> J-10 is most advanced indigenious fighter in PLAAF inventory
> People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> the rest are copies of Su-27 and Su-30



Did you just tell me that the J-10 is the most "advanced" jet the Chinese have.....the J-11, the J-15, J-16, J-20,J-31 are all names of single propeller planes from WW1 then, I guess??!

So the rest are SU-30 and SU-27 copies....so those aren't capable enough??? So what about your SU-30? How's that super advanced with a few nicer avionics and the ones the Chinese have are crap??? I am super confused....propaganda is one thing but don't stupidfy (my word), an entire discussion......

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## That Guy

Shabi1 said:


> Well you can have your opinion...
> But thats not the dynamics of Pak and China relations.
> 
> When it comes to Chinese tech, Pakistan has unrestricted access. You need to do some reading up, its PAF which has refused to induct J-10s.


Actually there are plenty of restrictions. China tends to make two different aircraft types, one for domestic use and one for export. The FC-20 would have had some fundamental changes to it, if it was exported to Pakistan. A newer example of this Chinese practice is the FC-31 and the J-20 fighters; The FC-31 is meant for export, thus it will not include vital tech that is included in the J-20. This reality won't change simply because their first customer is Pakistan.

Pakistan tends to get better deals, and has an easier time getting custom orders, but that is about it.


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## boke

乐意看到巴基斯坦对“J-17”雷电进行不断的升级改造，把雷电战机打造成适合巴基斯坦的4++战机。最能满足自身需要的战机才是最好的战机，而不是老瞄着别的国家制造出来的先进战机。这点巴基斯坦不需要攀比，相对与印度阿富汗这些邻国来说，能够压制至少是能相抗衡就可以了，巴基斯坦的飞行员本领听说很不错，如果有性能更好的适合本国国情的战机就能足以维护好本国国家利益了！

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## wiseone2

Viper0011. said:


> Did you just tell me that the J-10 is the most "advanced" jet the Chinese have.....the J-11, the J-15, J-16, J-20,J-31 are all names of single propeller planes from WW1 then, I guess??!
> 
> So the rest are SU-30 and SU-27 copies....so those aren't capable enough??? So what about your SU-30? How's that super advanced with a few nicer avionics and the ones the Chinese have are crap??? I am super confused....propaganda is one thing but don't stupidfy (my word), an entire discussion......



the su-27, su-30 are russian aircraft. they are capable aircraft. Can they export it to Pakistan ? Would they would get in trouble with Russia ? May be the engines are Russian. Maybe Russia would not allow it.

J-10 is the most advanced indigenous fighter. they need to protect aviation secrets due to potential conflict with Taiwan, S Korea, Japan and USA. they cannot give all their secrets to Pakistan


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## AsianLion

*Pakistan Air Force To Skip J-10B and Go For Chinese Stealth Fighter J-31?*

According to reports Pakistan Air force will skip J-10 and wait for the 5th generation Chinese stealth Fighter the Shenyang J-31.
Not much is known about the capabilities of the plane.The plane can carry weapons in internal bays like F-35,and will be ready in the next 2-3 years.

Pakistan Air Force plans to keep manufacturing and improving their 4th generation Fighter jet JF-17 Thunder till the induction of Chinese stealth fighter.

http://www.asian-defence.net/


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## newindiandefence

J 31 would be a gambling decision for paf don't throw yr full money on it...and very costly also.. I think u should go for Mig 35 . Egypt signed deal 50 jets for $2 billion . Cost effective 4.5+ gen fighter... affordable for Pakistan..... 100 Mig 35 best for paf if Russia allows...



AsianUnion said:


> *Pakistan Air Force To Skip J-10B and Go For Chinese Stealth Fighter J-31?*
> 
> According to reports Pakistan Air force will skip J-10 and wait for the 5th generation Chinese stealth Fighter the Shenyang J-31.
> Not much is known about the capabilities of the plane.The plane can carry weapons in internal bays like F-35,and will be ready in the next 2-3 years.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force plans to keep manufacturing and improving their 4th generation Fighter jet JF-17 Thunder till the induction of Chinese stealth fighter.
> 
> http://www.asian-defence.net/



Thunder can't fight future wars ...

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## Genghis khan1

Advantage of stealth is quite evident and PAF maga minds have realized this fact. Every interview from PAF Top brass suggest that PAF is looking towards 5th Generation fighter rather than 4++. ACM even hinted PAF analysing future technologies of the 6th generation fighters. There are good chances that PAF might team up with Turkey for a 5 Gen+ fighter, while acquiring some 5th Generation from China or US (which ACM already hinted).

PAF will try to bring up Jf-17s and F-16s to 4++ level while saving money for 5th Generation fighter.

.

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## punit

Genghis khan1 said:


> Advantage of stealth is quite evident and PAF maga minds have realized this fact. Every interview from PAF Top brass suggest that PAF is looking towards 5th Generation fighter rather than 4++. ACM even hinted PAF analysing future technologies of the 6th generation fighters. There are good chances that PAF might team up with Turkey for a 5 Gen+ fighter, while acquiring some 5th Generation from China or US (which ACM already hinted).
> 
> PAF will try to bring up Jf-17s and F-16s to 4++ level while saving money for 5th Generation fighter.
> 
> .


how many Stealth Planes can PAF afford?


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## weqi

AUz said:


> Chinese J-31 Stealth fighter.
> 
> India isn't getting anything till 2020-2022...
> 
> We have 6 to 8 years...
> 
> By that time, we'll have hundreds of JF-17s block II, III, etc...F-16s...and then acquisition of J-31 stealth bomber/fighter will completely neutralize any indian acquisition.
> 
> The gap between PAF and IAF was greatest of history in 2001-02 stand-off.....and IAF couldn't launch even a surgical strike inside Pakistan territory back then.
> 
> After that, Gap has only been decreasing and this trend would continue in coming future, Inshallah
> 
> In 2008, premiere IAF fighter, a fully armed Su-30MKI, entered Pakistani Air Space during high tensions....only to be *locked-on* by our F-16s and later, our 7 fighter jets "escorted" India's most lethal plane back to the border
> 
> After that, IAF never even dared to enter Pak's airspace during that tense time...let alone going forward with a surgical strike...let alone thinking about an open air-conflict with PAF....
> 
> In ALL previous engagements, where IAF and PAF engaged each other in shooting war, PAF was able to shoot down way more IAF aircrafts than vice versa.
> 
> See this thread started by a well-informed senior Indian member itself...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/38075-paf-kills-versis-iaf-kills.html



but un-fortunately lockheed martin planning to shift production line to ind we may face availability and spare parts difficulty how PAF cannot answere only diplomatic conditions can make way for PAF



punit said:


> how many Stealth Planes can PAF afford?


PAF is not doing business of affordability , well why Rafale even after SU-30 MKI ,PAF has habit of puzzling IAF


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## Genghis khan1

punit said:


> how many Stealth Planes can PAF afford?


As many it takes PAF to keep IAF at bay. It doesn't matter how many Su-30s or Rafael's IAF add to it's inventory. They stand no chance in BVR engagements. Russian are really struggling with their 5th generation fighter. Western analysts even doubt on that Russian design is good enough for a stealth fighter to began with. IAF is Shit out of luck.



weqi said:


> but un-fortunately lockheed martin planning to shift production line to ind we may face availability and spare parts difficulty how PAF cannot answere only diplomatic conditions can make way for PAF


That's for F-16s, if India is willing to place a big order. Which Lockheed martin has already started closing down in Texas, US. Most of F-16s employees have already being transitioned into F-35 assembly line.


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## Genghis khan1

newindiandefence said:


> Can paf match this with Chinese jets
> Future acquisition of India
> Hindustan
> 
> Suprsukhoi.320(2020)
> Rafael......... 36(2020)
> *Tejas1a...... 120 (2020)
> Mig35mki....124 (2020)
> Pakfa.......... 100 (2020)
> F-35 Israel. 40 (2025)
> Fgfa............ 147 (2025)
> Amca......... 250 (2030)*
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/no-j-10b...platform-instead.313405/page-46#ixzz4JC4YnrJf


You forgot to add unicorns to this list.

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## Ultima Thule

newindiandefence said:


> Brother this will happen..
> 
> October 2016 Rafale deal .....done
> 
> December 2016 ..super sukhoi
> 
> First quarter 2017 Fgfa / Pakfa
> 
> 2017 middle Mig 35 for quantity
> 
> 2018 ....f 35 for navy


yeah add F-22 too and J-20 also



newindiandefence said:


> Thunder can't fight future wars ...


Same to your crapy TEJAS

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Genghis khan1 said:


> You forgot to add unicorns to this list.


Unicorns were not added by him , because they are getting SUPER unicorn

On a different note , I am in favor of getting J10B , as a Third Option in fleet just because it is a more modern platform , vs Mirage which we operate (While in superior maintained shape)

Having 36-40 J10B , give us a comfort level of knowing these will continue to evolve with new items and there is ample supplies available. Also it would give us a chance to train some engineer force to look after these machines.

As it is China's Airforce's plane , it will continue to get better radar, a better avionics package and we had a potential to get upgrades







Overlooking this platform was not a smart decision, specially since we do not have any Stealth plane on offer for foreseeable future

Had we not chased the bone for F16 , we now would have been flying 36-40 Brand new J10B in our fleet (Active duty) Delivery was meant for 2014 , they would have been in service for 2 years

Pros
----------------------------------------------------------
Used by Chinese Airforce
Future upgrade Guaranteed (Radar/Engine)
The plane wings make it agile platform
Sufficient hard points
Ample parts and service support
Fast arrival / Purchase option


Cons
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not stealth however no one is offering us stealth on platter



Every one is still buying, not every one wants vertical flight option

Typhoon (None stealth)

Rafale (None stealth)
Gripen (None stealth)
F-15 (None stealth)

So to say these platforms are obsolete is not good as these platforms all are quite useful for next 15-18 years

If our bench mark is to make sure all planes in force at Year 2005 or newer , then we did well with replacement and Modernization


The planes from 1970 have to go 
The planes from 1980 have to also be moved over (if they have not gone thru MLU)

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## Wet Shirt Contest

newindiandefence said:


> Can paf match this with Chinese jets
> Future acquisition of India
> Hindustan
> 
> Suprsukhoi.320(2020)
> Rafael......... 36(2020)
> Tejas1a...... 120 (2020)
> Mig35mki....124 (2020)
> Pakfa.......... 100 (2020)
> F-35 Israel. 40 (2025)
> Fgfa............ 147 (2025)
> Amca......... 250 (2030)
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/no-j-10b...platform-instead.313405/page-46#ixzz4JC4YnrJf



what are you smokin , man ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*Pakistan JF 17 Thunder Fleet *

Block 1 (50 Units) (5 Year old ) 

Block 2 (??) (1 Year old )
Block 3 (0 Years old)

*Over all Grade (A+)*
*Pakistan F16 Fleet *

F16 C/D (45 Planes) , MLU assuming delivery of 2009 , (6 Years old)
F16 C/D (18 Planes) , New assuming delivery of 2009 , (6 Years old) 

F16 A/B Jordanian Original Purchase 1983 , upgraded in 2001 (Over 16 Years)

*Overall Grade ( A- )*
Dassault Mirage III / Dassault Mirage 5

Considering the Upgrade in 90's , age is around (26 Years) for Upgraded units 

Un upgraded units (30 Years plus)
Plus point we have a solid Over haul facility for it

*Overall Grade ( C-) (Due to Overhaul capabilities & Engineering would consider it C+)*
Chengdu F-7

Started induction in 1988 , so almost 28 Years 

No problem with parts and maintenance 

Technology package upgrade would help this plane

*Overall Grade ( C-) (Due to Overhaul capabilities & Engineering would consider it C+)*
So really we are looking at 150-170 planes in C+ Category , which makes it important to bring in a new platform like J10B (36-40 Units) to lift the load off the Mirage / F7 fleets


If the situation was we had offer of Stealth Jet , at same time as when we had ordered J10B , I would have agreed with decision to not get J10B , but we don't have any plane on offer. We ordered J10B around 2007-2008, and delivery was expected by 2014. So becasue of that 1 decision we lost around 7 years

Closest we got of a decision to get new planes was when we ordered 8 F16 , planes and then we backed out of that due to high financial issues


We had 0% chance of getting stealth plane in 2005 

We had 0% chance of getting stealth plane in 2010
We had 0% chance of getting stealth plane in 2016

What we did had chance was 36-40 Brand new state of Art J10B (Age 0), however the chance was not taken at right time. When will those fantastic stealth planes arrive ? 

The person who took the decision to overlook should really let us know , what was the "Alternative purchase" ? Becasue I really don't see any stealth plane between 2005-2016


We did get some 1983 Block A/B - F16 (14 units)

We had a offer rejected for new F16 C/D for 8 units 

We bought few ATR turbo prop recon planes
Tiny Scan eagle recon UAV (Unarmed) 

Yes we made a UAV fire missile certainly nice achivement


Had we gone the route of 40 J10B , delivery in 2014

In Year 2016-2017 , we would have ordered 20-36 more units for delivery in 2020 ,
And we would have been 50%-70% along the path of retiring Mirage

Comparison , 2007 Saudia ordered 72 Euro Fighter Typhoons, 2016 , they got 72 planes brand new in air-force, approximately same time when we had ordered 40 J10B, they saw a chance and they took chance to make their airforce better. We had a cake given to us and we were day dreaming about stealth.

*US threw us a Bone (18 F16 Block C/D) and kept us busy for 11-12 years not to upgrade our Airforce and they moved to then do a defence deal with India for air base a slap in our face, mean while our Air cheif were seeing stealth plane in their heads*

*During this 11-12 year gap , India performed upgrades on their Mirage2000*
*During this 11-12 year gap , India performed upgrades on their Jaguare platform*
*During this 11-12 year gap , India perform mig 29 upgrade *
*During this 11 -12 year gap india finished their Rafale purchase*

Don't see any "Stealth plane in horizon"

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## newindiandefence

pakistanipower said:


> yeah add F-22 too and J-20 also
> 
> 
> Same to your crapy TEJAS


U are right , but tejas is no our main. Fighter will do supporting role ..but jf17 now yr main jet in near future... this will make a use deference.



pakistanipower said:


> yeah add F-22 too and J-20 also
> 
> Don't laugh ,,u should prepare yr self for best..
> 
> Possible. F22 export version....offered by lockheed Martin if with f16 deal future option...if Japan cellect it aa next fighter jet 40 billion project, and us assembly approve it ,,, then India go for it with f 16 deAl ...in place of f35.
> Same to your crapy TEJAS


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## zebra7

newindiandefence said:


> J 31 would be a gambling decision for paf don't throw yr full money on it...and very costly also.. I think u should go for Mig 35 . Egypt signed deal 50 jets for $2 billion . Cost effective 4.5+ gen fighter... affordable for Pakistan..... 100 Mig 35 best for paf if Russia allows...
> 
> 
> 
> Thunder can't fight future wars ...



Why did you get the negative rating for this post. I agree MIG-35 if allowed is the best option for PAF.


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## X-2.

Until with TFX or with Chinese 5generation jets pak should acquire mirages from uae or Jordanian f16 with upgrade to balance the air deterrence 
I think upgraded f16 will be best option to stabilise the time space until 5 generation

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## Ultima Thule

newindiandefence said:


> U are right , but tejas is no our main. Fighter will do supporting role ..but jf17 now yr main jet in near future... this will make a use deference.


Neither our J-17 is our main fighter, it compliment with our F-16 which is our main and who told you that our JF-17 is our Main fighter in future


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## Centurion2016

X2 quote


> Until with TFX or with Chinese 5generation jets pak should acquire mirages from uae or Jordanian f16 with upgrade


So PAF strategy has not changed in 50 years

In the 1980s/90s PAF acquired cheap or free mirages that where being retired globally from Libya Austrllia and others

25 years later PAF will now buy used second F16s from Jordan and other small airforces .

AND OR soldier on with chinease fighters like F7 & THUNDER

" nothing has changed"

Theres only three ways to build an real air force

Like Israel with USA grant aid
Like Arabs via $$$$$$$$ billions
OR like French British and Russians now Chinease with your own top notch aerospace technology & $$ Billions


OTHERWISE YOUR TREDING WATER


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## nomi007

jf-17 block3
&
TFX 

are better options


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## Ultima Thule

newindiandefence said:


> My dear friend China have not a single order of jet by any country expect Pakistan...


lots of African countries and you also forget Egyptian K-8 and Bangladesh don't fool yourself my dear friend


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## DESERT FIGHTER

4GTejasBVR said:


> Pakistan will have one of the worst airforce in Asia in coming years...



Yeah one with 8 AWACS, multiple ELIENT/EW aircrafts and about 350+ Fourth Gen fighters.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

4GTejasBVR said:


> What aircraft. U must understand what am trying to say. Even Mig21s forms brutal force against weaker country with helicopters like Afghanistan.



PAF has always faced IAF with a superior numerical and technical ratio of almost 4:1 

And proven its metal.



> The strength of a country's airforce depends on its threats perception. Pakistan by far will induct more jf17 with children nəsə loan and just try to keep afloat current f16s or some more decades old f16s from other countries. While India on the verge to upgrade already superior 300 some sukois to Super sukois standards with massive upgrade in stealth and weapons capabilities. Another batch of pure stealth fighter to be inducted and Rafale the best 4th Gen fighter about to be inducted. More over LCA to be inducted I large numbers. These are new deals Yet to be inducted in future. What Pakistan will have will be old f16s and jf17... Simply useless against its enemy. Rest of the Asian countries will keep inducting sukois, TX etc etc etc




Yup 100+ Block 52+s,250+ JF-17 Block III (which are planned to be better or on par uth block 52+) and other aircraft.

while super duper 5th gen su-30s with less than 40% availability and reluctantly (still not in service) LCAs and mig-29s will rip PAF apart.. Aswell as 36 (deal signed yet?) Rafales..

As for stealth or 5th gen .. Still a decade away.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

4GTejasBVR said:


> What aircraft. U must understand what am trying to say. Even Mig21s forms brutal force against weaker country with helicopters like Afghanistan.
> 
> The strength of a country's airforce depends on its threats perception. Pakistan by far will induct more jf17 with children nəsə loan and just try to keep afloat current f16s or some more decades old f16s from other countries. While India on the verge to upgrade already superior 300 some sukois to Super sukois standards with massive upgrade in stealth and weapons capabilities. Another batch of pure stealth fighter to be inducted and Rafale the best 4th Gen fighter about to be inducted. More over LCA to be inducted I large numbers. These are new deals Yet to be inducted in future. What Pakistan will have will be old f16s and jf17... Simply useless against its enemy. Rest of the Asian countries will keep inducting sukois, TX etc etc etc
> 
> 
> 8 awacs... Man the way you portray awacs are really nice. Good for for... Induct 8 more awacs and become greatest airforce in the world
> 
> 
> Wonder when will u people wake. Up and question your establishment to fave real threats. Rather keep hoping for Chinese or. Americans to help defuse the tension with India. What ever the way you have Ur mentality good for India. 350 massive fire power. Keep it up.




You come off as a pure fanboy .. Which you sadly are..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think getting a fresh plane might be hard , only avenue I see is Used market
(Used Block C/D or may be Mirage 2000).

J10B should be immediate consideration , because got knows when this "Stealth dream" will come reality. 


We have not inducted a major platform in Airforce since 1983 that was the only time when we had a cutting edge platform
People who oppose the J10B , they should display concrete work order when they would "purchase" this so called Stealth platform. Becasue the statements of "focus" , "strategize" or vision are not materializing. There is gap between ambition and actual practical delivery

Becasue this whole dealing with Congress and 4-5 years for 2-3 F16 is useless


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## 4GTejasBVR

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think getting a fresh plane might be hard , only avenue I see is Used market


Sorry u need more capable sukoi 35 or Eurofighter. At least 60-70 of them


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

4GTejasBVR said:


> I don't know what metal or mental you talking about. And PAF in the past wars enjoyed superiority against iaf inventory. Read the history books. And no no metal but only mental



I did .. Do you want record of Indian pilots shot down in 65 or 71?

Ironically in 71. Indian "top guns" we're all shot down by PAF... And only 1 sanction SQD of Sabrs shot down dozens of Indian jets.



> That's the problem. As of now our sukoi fleet availability is more than 60 percent as report submitted in parliament recently. And India is about to sign 2 billion dollar deal to make spare with Russia to increase the availability. All you hopes are like Sukoi availability is low. In fact Ur hope should be "we must have enough capabilities against what ever fore power India has" pathetically sad that you have this kind of wish


.
270 = 40% ==? And now 60%=?

How many will you station in war on the Chinese border ?


> Am not talking about LCa as its for internal Defence and for further development of fifth generation program Made in India.




First make LCA in India and actually introduced it in service 5 decades and still a lemon!



> But only made man will say 29 and Rafales are joke in front of any kind of 4th Gen fighters. In your case it's f16. After all f16 are made for support role with F15s.



Support of F-15?

Became the most lethal production jet in service with a deadly kill ratio to go with it.


> If that made you secure than so be it enjoy. F16 are greatest fighter jets
> 
> I disagree. I don't give a damn to someone who made joke about Su30, mig29 against f16...




You make no sense.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

4GTejasBVR said:


> Sorry u need more capable sukoi 35 or Eurofighter. At least 60-70 of them



Those kind of Solutions are just too expensive specially the Euro fighter , I mean Saudia bought their 72 Units for 5 Billion dollars. Those kind of figures are astronomical from our side

I think a logical avenues is just 20-25 Used F16 (Would be great if it is C/D)

May be a retiring fleet of Mirage 2000 (20-25 Unit)
And the J10B fleet just has to be in Pakistan 36-40 Units

Only then we can rightfully retire Mirage fleet from 180 planes to perhaps just reserving 40-50 planes

The thunder fleet will improve marginally in numbers for next 1-2 years. So all is not bad but it would have been nice had we had a depandable J10B platform

The Thunder platform is still evolving

This plane is like PERFECT screems PAF








Not sure who these voices are in PAF that want people to keep flying Mirages

I for one , am tired of this Congress -Shongress business worse purchasing experience


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## DESERT FIGHTER

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Those kind of Solutions are just too expensive specially the Euro fighter , I mean Saudia bought their 72 Units for 5 Billion dollars. Those kind of figures are astronomical from our side



So what lol Indians are signing 36 Rafales for 12 billion lol.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I mean look at all these J10B with Chinese Engine






This is the answer right there for Pakistan's Modernization needs J10B

Talk Stealth when there is a "Written offer"


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## hussain0216

newindiandefence said:


> Yup 100+ Block 52+s,250+ JF-17 Block III (which are planned to be better or on par uth block 52+) and other aircraft.
> 
> while super duper 5th gen su-30s with less than 40% availability and reluctantly (still not in service) LCAs and mig-29s will rip PAF apart.. Aswell as 36 (deal signed yet?) Rafales..
> 
> As for stealth or 5th gen .. Still a decade away.



Jf17 block 3 when will come prototype?
2020,2019,??
And after flit testings...
Induction 2022 rate of manufacturing 18per year ....when will u gate 250??
Do u really think ,,, india will not gen 5th gen gets till with all option of Pakfa,Fgfa,f35,Amca [/QUOTE]

150 jf 17s with 50 block 3s should be ready by 2020

Your procurement is such a joke that im.not sure you will get 5th gen even by 2040


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So what lol Indians are signing 36 Rafales for 12 billion lol.



Well french squeezed Indians, and Indians got even by leaking French sub deal I think
Would not be surprised if secrets for following tech become available

Phalcon
P8
Rafale

Who knows we might get design details to make our own Rafale some day just like the Scorpene deal

But 12 Billion for just 36 planes was a bit high

As for the JF17

Block 1 : (50 Units) 2010-2013
Block 2: (50 Units) 2014-2016/2017 , Externals Sales: 20-25 Units (Between 2016-2020)
Block 3 : (20-25 Units) 2018-2020


A fleet of 150 planes would be decent force for Pakistan's defensive needs.

A nice order of J10B would make things Solid , I don't consider Stealth the most important thing
we need to fix the *CORE* first

We need a supplier that is dependable, a more efficient process one that does not suffers from constipation .

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## hussain0216

newindiandefence said:


> Are u talking about 65 -71 war with proud...
> 
> Then why u lose Bangladesh??
> And what u gain?
> 
> Ur Panjab military always teach u wrong history....
> 
> I have heard from my pak friends than they won both wars ...
> 
> 
> Then who was they 100000 soldiers ,who surrender in front of Indian military?
> After simla samjhota .....they got released...
> ...
> Western media did not stoped u to lie...Because you had western weapons....



Bangladesh was 1000 miles away from Pakistan, on the other side of india, where you got yourselves involved in a civil war

Pakistan is 7 times smaller than India, defeat for us would have meant no more Pakistan 

Yet here we are, i n 1948 taking a vital chunk of Kashmir from india blocking you from central asia, Russia and Afghanistan/iran

In 65 pushing you to defeat in kashmir for india to panic snd attack our major city, only to be humiliated, defeated and thrown out

In 71 you involved yourself in a civil war where we couldn't even resupply our forces 1000 miles away from us



What have you achieved against a 7 times smaller state in population, and 3 and half smaller in size?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well as you know this thread is about discussing Pakistan's purchasing decisions about J10B or Stealth platform. It does not make sense why your discussion is discussing Indian future upgrade

India has a far larger territory to cover, and also it is operating lot of Dinosaur platforms
It is a bit not fair to start a comparison between Pakistan's upgrade program vs that of India as the two programs have different threads in different section of the defence forum

In end you will end up banning your own self by derailing conversation

I think the J10B, and Stealth plane has not much to do with Indian Air force's plans for upgrade

Furthermore , it seems you are quite new , as you are not familiar with Chinese Airforce & Defence projects. I do suggest you review the products China is making prior to criticize their products.

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## hussain0216

newindiandefence said:


> 150 jf 17s with 50 block 3s should be ready by 2020
> 
> Your procurement is such a joke that im.not sure you will get 5th gen even by 2040



Ok lets except it 200 in 2020.
And India not getting 5 gen till 2040
..
But what about super sukhoi with Fgfa tech upgrade,

Rafale approved by defence ministery .

Tejas Mark 1a with Israeli improved elm2052 or uttam which will be better aser radar ,carbon fibers body with gauranted low rcs .python 5 , durby 2

Mig 29k with esar radar

Jf3 or j 10 can match them ?????

Chinese products.....



 Don't make excuses.....

U also using only religious sentiments
For Kashmir .....

For your excuses what will u say about Arab Israeli 3day war one small nation vs 25 nation????[/QUOTE]

Out of all the crap you said only 150 Jf 17s with a great block 3 by 2020 is likely


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## newindiandefence

Agree 

And I don't want to hurt anybody...
If anyone ,,,, then I m sorry ...

I think we should live peacefully and helpful for each other.....


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## hussain0216

newindiandefence said:


> Agree
> 
> And I don't want to hurt anybody...
> If anyone ,,,, then I m sorry ...
> 
> I think we should live peacefully and helpful for each other.....



No we shouldn't were enemies, end your occupation of Kashmir and let South Asia move on

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## Furqan Sarwar

4GTejasBVR said:


> PAF should induct 50 more awacs and become greatest airforce the world has ever seen



Do you have 50 AWACS? if not then its a waste of time giving replies like this.

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## The Eagle

zebra7 said:


> Why did you get the negative rating for this post. I agree MIG-35 if allowed is the best option for PAF.



Thanks for advices and PAF knows what is available as best, economical and with enough juice in long terms but one wonders, why our neighboring friends are pressing hard for Mig-35 mostly in every single thread about PAF future plans and options.

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## MastanKhan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> A nice order of J10B would make things Solid , I don't consider Stealth the most important thing
> we need to fix the *CORE* first



Hi,

A perfect word chosen to describe the scenario---. If the *CORE* is not fixed---it would just be a white wash---.

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## AsianLion

Great Analysis @AZADPAKISTAN2009 

Pakistan does need a EF, Gripen or Su35 type of jet but not in favour of another Chinese J10B . And a 5th Gen plane must be PAFs full committment and future funds...J31 or TFX it has to purchase it.
*
" Pakistan JF 17 Thunder Fleet *

Block 1 (50 Units) (5 Year old ) 

Block 2 (??) (1 Year old )
Block 3 (0 Years old)

*Over all Grade (A+)*
*Pakistan F16 Fleet *

F16 C/D (45 Planes) , MLU assuming delivery of 2009 , (6 Years old)
F16 C/D (18 Planes) , New assuming delivery of 2009 , (6 Years old) 

F16 A/B Jordanian Original Purchase 1983 , upgraded in 2001 (Over 16 Years)

*Overall Grade ( A- )*
Dassault Mirage III / Dassault Mirage 5

Considering the Upgrade in 90's , age is around (26 Years) for Upgraded units 

Un upgraded units (30 Years plus)
Plus point we have a solid Over haul facility for it

*Overall Grade ( C-) (Due to Overhaul capabilities & Engineering would consider it C+)*
Chengdu F-7

Started induction in 1988 , so almost 28 Years 

No problem with parts and maintenance 

Technology package upgrade would help this plane

*Overall Grade ( C-) (Due to Overhaul capabilities & Engineering would consider it C+)*
So really we are looking at 150-170 planes in C+ Category , which makes it important to bring in a new platform like J10B (36-40 Units) to lift the load off the Mirage / F7 fleets


If the situation was we had offer of Stealth Jet , at same time as when we had ordered J10B , I would have agreed with decision to not get J10B , but we don't have any plane on offer. We ordered J10B around 2007-2008, and delivery was expected by 2014. So becasue of that 1 decision we lost around 7 years

Closest we got of a decision to get new planes was when we ordered 8 F16 , planes and then we backed out of that due to high financial issues


We had 0% chance of getting stealth plane in 2005 

We had 0% chance of getting stealth plane in 2010
We had 0% chance of getting stealth plane in 2016

What we did had chance was 36-40 Brand new state of Art J10B (Age 0), however the chance was not taken at right time. When will those fantastic stealth planes arrive ? 

The person who took the decision to overlook should really let us know , what was the "Alternative purchase" ? Becasue I really don't see any stealth plane between 2005-2016


We did get some 1983 Block A/B - F16 (14 units)

We had a offer rejected for new F16 C/D for 8 units 

We bought few ATR turbo prop recon planes
Tiny Scan eagle recon UAV (Unarmed) 

Yes we made a UAV fire missile certainly nice achivement


Had we gone the route of 40 J10B , delivery in 2014

In Year 2016-2017 , we would have ordered 20-36 more units for delivery in 2020 ,
And we would have been 50%-70% along the path of retiring Mirage

Comparison , 2007 Saudia ordered 72 Euro Fighter Typhoons, 2016 , they got 72 planes brand new in air-force, approximately same time when we had ordered 40 J10B, they saw a chance and they took chance to make their airforce better. We had a cake given to us and we were day dreaming about stealth.

*US threw us a Bone (18 F16 Block C/D) and kept us busy for 11-12 years not to upgrade our Airforce and they moved to then do a defence deal with India for air base a slap in our face, mean while our Air cheif were seeing stealth plane in their heads*

*During this 11-12 year gap , India performed upgrades on their Mirage2000*
*During this 11-12 year gap , India performed upgrades on their Jaguare platform*
*During this 11-12 year gap , India perform mig 29 upgrade *
*During this 11 -12 year gap india finished their Rafale purchase*

Don't see any "Stealth plane in horizon"
"

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## zebra7

The Eagle said:


> Thanks for advices and PAF knows what is available as best, economical and with enough juice in long terms but one wonders, why our neighboring friends are pressing hard for Mig-35 mostly in every single thread about PAF future plans and options.



Well that advise was on the basis of the economics. This is what I feel, that PAF needs Dedicated Air Superiority Fighter Jet e.g F-15E, EF-2000 or Su-35 to counter IAF. Since all the options are difficult or seems to be difficult, and also costly which will force the PAF to procure only in limited numbers. If you think PAF have no budget issues, then I might be wrong, and the choice of MIG-35 was only the suggetion, and its the PAF and the GOP to decide, which way they want to go. Nothing personal sir, if you don't like it just ignore it. And BTW, the motive of that post was to know, why he was given negative rating, because I feels, there was nothing wrong in it.


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## The Eagle

zebra7 said:


> the motive of that post was to know, why he was given negative rating, because I feels, there was nothing wrong in it.



The one who has the authority to give rating, is aware of powers given by management and if the one at receiver end feels unfair, can contact GHQ but other should not make it something to debate, totally at different topic/thread. 

Economical, we are still promised with our current stance towards more JFTs, the current fleet and upcoming 5th Gen (FC-31 or TFX) but when PAF decides to have a platform like EFT or SUs, then I am sure the possibilities are worked out based upon the feasibility reports and different practices. Everything is not the money every time, there are strategies and tactics defined while keep in view the future development and expenses thereof. Along with budget, it is also the doctrine in possible manners and if needed and having no other choice, PAF can have it whatever deemed fit and is not like that much empty pocketed what others try to portray. Hope you will understand. Cost is not like a Sky but their are other priorities as well.

Whereby a thread created about PAF, J-10B and 5th Gen A/C, our neighboring friends cannot ignore it how do you expect me not to share what I see. 

Nothing personal taken as well.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Just out of curiosity China is demoing the J-31 is the Air chief planning to visit the event ?
Or he presently waiting for a 5th generation plane ?

I am just trying to figure out which one of the news are credible

Is it 5th generation or we getting Stealth plane ?

Reference:
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/china-stealth-fighter-zhuhai-airshow-j31


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## Signalian

AsianUnion said:


> *US threw us a Bone (18 F16 Block C/D) and kept us busy for 11-12 years not to upgrade our Airforce and they moved to then do a defence deal with India for air base a slap in our face, mean while our Air cheif were seeing stealth plane in their heads*
> 
> *During this 11-12 year gap , India performed upgrades on their Mirage2000*
> *During this 11-12 year gap , India performed upgrades on their Jaguare platform*
> *During this 11-12 year gap , India perform mig 29 upgrade *
> *During this 11 -12 year gap india finished their Rafale purchase*"



JF-17 Program and induction.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Looking for those stealths

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## Centurion2016

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> India has a far larger territory to cover, and also it is operating lot of Dinosaur platforms
> It is a bit not fair to start a comparison between Pakistan's upgrade program vs that of India as the two programs have different threads in different section of the defence forum




ONE CAREFUL look at PAF and you will see 70% of the PAF fleet is what you call Dinosaur . In simple nos you have 350 fighters but only 120 4th generation fighters ie Thunders /Falcons

Look Across the Border And their dinosaur Fleet is only 40% . In other words ouf 550 the IAF has 350 4th Generation fighters.

With The Rafale deal signed today and Tejas induction the Indians will reach COMPLETE -4th generation fleet in 4 or 5 years .

FOR PAF to achieve 100% they need to induct 250 more thunders falcons or something else.

THAT SOMETHING ELSE currently seems

most realistic used F16 and thunders ..........BUT HOW MANY and how effective are these really post 2019

Order for J10B .......... again cost new platform and how many can you buy to bridge gap

WAIT decade to get a 5th generation platform .........

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## AsianLion

Horus said:


> JF-17 Thunder's deputy project director, Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood by Air Force Monthly, a question was brought up regarding J-10B/FC-20 acquisition proposal.
> 
> He stated the reasons why Pakistan doesn't need/can't afford another 4+ generation fighter when we are developing JF-17s in advanced blocks and our F-16 MLU-MIII upgrade is coming along well with the new Block-52+ squadron.
> 
> He also suggested that our analysts and strategic planners should think about 5th generation acquisition in the future instead of buying up another 4+ generation aircraft. Please note that this doesn't mean to imply that the J-10B is somehow 'inferior'. The hypothesis is that PAF doesn't need capabilities it already has, it needs to look ahead.




Air Commodore suggest that why J10 cannot be acquired is because it does not need or cannot afford it, and J10B is not some high advance than Block III of JF17s or F16s, plausible points, J10B is simply not good enough leap forward...but are we going to buy 100+ 5th Generation??

I think Su-35, EF or Gripen NG are the capabilities PAF does not have in its inventory: fast, agile, LONG RANGE, TVC, AESA etc, this is the significant capability enhancement PAF needs in small numbers.


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## volatile

Photoshopped Image with CFT /Pods /10+ Hardpoints ,dual seat,IFF ,Aerial Refueling ,IRST


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## AFlover

volatile said:


> Photoshopped Image with CFT /Pods /10+ Hardpoints ,dual seat,IFF ,Aerial Refueling ,IRST




Thats really a beauty with 10 HP its a treat if the engine issue is resolved.
It will definitely add numbers and qualitative edge due to IRST, CFT and AESA.
Block 3 with all the goodies still have low powered engine and fewer HPs.
I m not sure how PAF will get more F16 to fill up rhe gap there is nothing for sale in east /west.
We seriously need to replace all F7s and Pgs along with mirages.
In how many years the block 3 will fill up that 200 gap.
Its a strange strategy to wait for another 5 years to induct J31.


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## Centurion2016

J31,will not be ready for export. In five years .
More likely ten years .

The f16 block 52,is available but relationship with USA is poor and India is a growing USA strategic ally and support for falcons will be efected in a war . USA will not be rushing in spares. Imo this is a real issue in Pakistani minds sanction threat is a problem 


The eurofighter and su35 .are availsble but the question I's resources and its a new combat type in top of thunders mirsges f7 f16 future purchase of j31,. Too many combat types is something you label.India with but a small nation like paf with six combat types us a nitemate too.

Ideally you need two types only or three max not five or six


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## volatile

AFlover said:


> Thats really a beauty with 10 HP its a treat if the engine issue is resolved.


There are not so big Issue with AL41F being perfected from all the previous defects from AL31


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## AFlover

volatile said:


> There are not so big Issue with AL41F being perfected from all the previous defects from AL31


Thanks for info but then there is no reason to reject or delay the acquisitions of J10-BC
I m sure JFT-3 will bring a lot of similarity of J10 but still it will be 30-40% below the J10


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## volatile

Hi reasons are more complicated than this . in 2006 J10 was intender for PAF but deal wasnot materialize after 10 years J10 seems a difficuly buy probably J31 can make inroads 


AFlover said:


> Thanks for info but then there is no reason to reject or delay the acquisitions of J10-BC
> I m sure JFT-3 will bring a lot of similarity of J10 but still it will be 30-40% below the J10


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## thrilainmanila

in all honesty PAF would have been in a much more confident position had they had those 36 J-10Bs


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## RAAJ大和

Very good we should focus on 5th Gen or even 6th rather than 4th Gen's


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## SQ8

For the J-10B proponents, a study on the Lavi which essentially applies to a large extent for the J-10.
@Manticore @Tempest II

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## thrilainmanila

Laanat just happened on the LOC and your talking about jay-10


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Wah Ji Wah Kiya JANGI JAHAZ hai !!!! Air cheif Sir , where are your stealth ?






By the way there is huge technological difference between J10B and Levi





Fighter Jet is 90% Technology items inside it , and 10% Body


In 70's cockpit design was not as technologically advance as it is now





Vs J10B






If Levi platform was more advance please share a new picture





Plus DOUBLE SEATER






J10B had better Missiles to offer
Better Avionics package 

Better Options for upgrade 

New engines


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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> Laanat just happened on the LOC and your talking about jay-10


It's you're. And anyone can talk about anything based upon their interests as long as its not baseless parroting.


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## thrilainmanila

Oscar said:


> It's you're. And anyone can talk about anything based upon their interests as long as its not baseless parroting.


You know the score why speak of a fighterthe pak fazaya will never obtain lets debate the impending issue at hand its a reality is jay10 a reality maybe if A PAF pilot got hold of a call of duty game but thats as close as there going to go with that score im afraid


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well , don't worry about Call of duty , we have real soldiers


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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> You know the score why speak of a fighterthe pak fazaya will never obtain lets debate the impending issue at hand its a reality is jay10 a reality maybe if A PAF pilot got hold of a call of duty game but thats as close as there going to go with that score im afraid


Who cares about the PAF, it is still a fine aircraft.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

thrilainmanila said:


> You know the score why speak of a fighterthe pak fazaya will never obtain lets debate the impending issue at hand its a reality is jay10 a reality maybe if A PAF pilot got hold of a call of duty game but thats as close as there going to go with that score im afraid



Well you know you never know we might have 70 J10B just hiding in our secret underground airforce base

But realistically you have to ask the question if China has inducted the jet into their Airforce and it is now the Backbone of their Airforce 

So you know it is a legitimate platform

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## amardeep mishra

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10B had better Missiles to offer
> 
> Better Avionics package
> 
> Better Options for upgrade
> 
> New engines



@AZADPAKISTAN2009 
sometimes,you make me wonder if you really know anything about fighters at all! Being un-educated in affairs at hand is one thing and "choosing" to remain ignorant is quite another. 
In case you do not know how the cockpit of lavi looked like-please do your homework much more thoroughly-
http://www.sid.co.il/מוצרים-לתעשיה-הביטחונית






It was much more advanced for a late-80s fighter- these kind of systems werent even accessible to china back in late 80s

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

amardeep mishra said:


> @AZADPAKISTAN2009
> sometimes,you make me wonder if you really know anything about fighters at all! Being un-educated in affairs at hand is one thing and "choosing" to remain ignorant is quite another.
> In case you do not know how the cockpit of lavi looked like-please do your homework much more thoroughly-
> http://www.sid.co.il/מוצרים-לתעשיה-הביטחונית
> 
> View attachment 339213
> 
> It was much more advanced for a late-80s fighter- these kind of systems werent even accessible to china back in late 80s



The display looks fake , as it is showing readings and the pilot is not even sitting in plane or the plane is not even started

Or Does this plane , flies on its own

What are these green lines on the panels ? when the plane is not even started ? did they draw this on the screens just to scare off people

When fighter jet is not turned on all the screens normally display blank image

And what is that "STICKER" under the left alleged screen ? Looks like needs a bit more glue
Literally looks like printing done on a slab of plastic in color


This cann't be compared to a functional Chinese Avionics

Real pannels illuminate





While this is just a simulator

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## amardeep mishra

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The display looks fake , as it is showing readings and the pilot is not even sitting in plane or the plane is not even started
> 
> Or Does this plane , flies on its own
> 
> What are these green lines on the panels ? when the plane is not even started ? did they draw this on the screens just to scare off people
> 
> When fighter jet is not turned on all the screens normally display blank image
> 
> And what is that "STICKER" under the left alleged screen ? Looks like needs a bit more glue
> Literally looks like printing done on a slab of plastic in color
> 
> 
> This cann't be compared to a functional Chinese Avionics
> 
> Real pannels illuminate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this is just a simulator


@AZADPAKISTAN2009
No it is not fake as i took from their official site whose link I have already posted above. It is amazing you think chinese avionics and radar technology is superior to israelis. --Kindly note,before you brand me as someone who writes off chinese research-I truly am a huge admirer of the way chinese do research. But fortunately or unfortunately,chinese are still behind israelis in a lot of fields particularly avionics and radars. The presence of such avionics/mfd suite in lavi in "80s" only reinforces what I have been saying all along! Kindly note,china did not have anything even close to lavi back in 80s.
J-10 is indeed chinese lavi with of course chinese sub-systems. The aerodynamic layout of j-10 closely mimics that of lavi with an exception of air intakes. The aerodynamic similarity clearly indicates a vast cooperation between israel and china. With Lavi china got an already "r&d'ed" platform which they could easily replicate with their own sub-systems-like how they did with J-11.

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## Ultima Thule

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Just out of curiosity China is demoing the J-31 is the Air chief planning to visit the event ?
> Or he presently waiting for a 5th generation plane ?
> 
> I am just trying to figure out which one of the news are credible
> 
> Is it 5th generation or we getting Stealth plane ?
> 
> Reference:
> http://www.defensenews.com/articles/china-stealth-fighter-zhuhai-airshow-j31


Their is a romurs that China is developing single engine version of J-20, so their is a possibility that we maybe get this jet in near future


----------



## jupiter2007

Should Pakistan consider J-10x with AESA Radar if China offer it to Pskistan?
Pakistan has a requirement for 40 new fighters for stop gap purpose. USA is not going to sell any new F-16 to Pakistan, and Typhoon might be too expensive for Pakistan.

J-31 is still in development phase and won't go into production before 2020 and may not be avilable for export until 2023.
So the choices are very limited...Su-35, J-11x/J-16x and believe or not J-10C still a contender. I have a feeling that Pakistan might go for twin engine fighter. Let's wait for PAF to officially make the announcement.


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## Dr Shaheryar

China has agreed that in case of need two squadrons will be given of j-10's to Pakistan at any given time. Pakistani Pilot's have undergone the training on these aircrafts at various levels.


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## Centurion2016

Dr Shaheryar said:


> China has agreed that in case of need two squadrons will be given of j-10's to Pakistan at any given time. Pakistani Pilot's have undergone the training on these aircrafts at various levels.




If somebody offers j10 then now is the time 

You where waiting to see rafale deal evolve .

Well now is the time to go get those j10.Some pilots are flying fifty year old mirages.


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## thrilainmanila

Oscar said:


> Who cares about the PAF, it is still a fine aircraft.


is this the reason why i got banned?


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## SQ8

thrilainmanila said:


> is this the reason why i got banned?


if you got banned then it was for parroting baseless arguments or pointless cynicism just for the sake of it.

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## Beast

amardeep mishra said:


> @AZADPAKISTAN2009
> No it is not fake as i took from their official site whose link I have already posted above. It is amazing you think chinese avionics and radar technology is superior to israelis. --Kindly note,before you brand me as someone who writes off chinese research-I truly am a huge admirer of the way chinese do research. But fortunately or unfortunately,chinese are still behind israelis in a lot of fields particularly avionics and radars. The presence of such avionics/mfd suite in lavi in "80s" only reinforces what I have been saying all along! Kindly note,china did not have anything even close to lavi back in 80s.
> J-10 is indeed chinese lavi with of course chinese sub-systems. The aerodynamic layout of j-10 closely mimics that of lavi with an exception of air intakes. The aerodynamic similarity clearly indicates a vast cooperation between israel and china. With Lavi china got an already "r&d'ed" platform which they could easily replicate with their own sub-systems-like how they did with J-11.


You are absolutely wrong. Chinese are fast leaner and in past we are student but now we are the master. Israel used to dominate the field of drone and now its Chinese who eat up all their market. The Chinese are now producing UCAV which Israel can't match and more than a dozen countries has already snap up our UCAV. Israel drone cannot fire ATGM and can do surveilance only.

You are still living in old information and past. The world is changing fast and you need to keep yourself update even faster


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## Aero

Beast said:


> Israeli drone cannot fire ATGM and can do surveillance only.


You probably need some more research & update yourself.
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/hacked-images-from-israels-drone-fleet/ (Just check the Armed part)



> Israel used to dominate the field of drone and now its Chinese who eat up all their market. The Chinese are now producing UCAV which Israel can't match and more than a dozen countries has already snap up our UCAV.


Israel don't have that much money to spend on R&D as much as China can, so Israel will lag behind.


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## amardeep mishra

Beast said:


> You are still living in old information and past. The world is changing fast and you need to keep yourself update even faster


Hi dear @Beast 
Thanks but you don't have to suggest me that as I know things I talk about. For your information I have got a Chinese professor here who is from hubei.

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## MastanKhan

Aero said:


> You probably need some more research & update yourself.
> https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/hacked-images-from-israels-drone-fleet/ (Just check the Armed part)
> 
> 
> Israel don't have that much money to spend on R&D as much as China can, so Israel will lag behind.




Hi,

It is not money that gets the Israeli R&D going---but it is the constant threat of war and newer weapons coming into the arena that keeps them ticking to make better stuff---.

Basically their feet are on fire---and now china has its feet held to fire on SCS---. A threat of war---a constant threat of war---and imminent threat of war gets things moving and makes the brain work wonders.

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## Aero

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not money that gets the Israeli R&D going---but it is the constant threat of war and newer weapons coming into the arena that keeps them ticking to make better stuff---.
> 
> Basically their feet are on fire---and now china has its feet held to fire on SCS---. A threat of war---a constant threat of war---and imminent threat of war gets things moving and makes the brain work wonders.


Agreed but if let's say Israel becomes a $1-2 Trillion economy then there will be much more R&D and New products from Israel. Threat of war is actually responsible for many israeli developments but if they had more cash like China they could have improved or make better products at much larger scale.


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## thrilainmanila

Oscar said:


> if you got banned then it was for parroting baseless arguments or pointless cynicism just for the sake of it.


there is truth to what i say even you know it. In many parts of pakistan to say the whole truth is considered blasphemey and can cost you your life, when you've been raised with such mentality then its no surprise to see the constant bans on my side.


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## Super Falcon

Same old news again yaar 5th gen still 10 away we need stop gap fighter jets


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## Erroroverload

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not money that gets the Israeli R&D going---but it is the constant threat of war and newer weapons coming into the arena that keeps them ticking to make better stuff---.
> 
> Basically their feet are on fire---and now china has its feet held to fire on SCS---. A threat of war---a constant threat of war---and imminent threat of war gets things moving and makes the brain work wonders.


no sir absolutely not, if thats the case Pakistan would have one of the best weapons in the world. it's the money which is the main thing. more then 70 years of enmity with india 2 wars and still u think we r not feeling the fire.


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## MastanKhan

Z4ZOHAIB said:


> no sir absolutely not, if thats the case Pakistan would have one of the best weapons in the world. it's the money which is the main thing. more then 70 years of enmity with india 2 wars and still u think we r not feeling the fire.



Hi,

If you are just winging it because of your reasoning---then don't.

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## wiseone2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not money that gets the Israeli R&D going---but it is the constant threat of war and newer weapons coming into the arena that keeps them ticking to make better stuff---.
> 
> Basically their feet are on fire---and now china has its feet held to fire on SCS---. A threat of war---a constant threat of war---and imminent threat of war gets things moving and makes the brain work wonders.



Israelis benefit from access to American and Western technology
they had a big boost in brain power when 1 million Soviet Jews landed

Israelis do not need their indigenous R&D to safeguard their state. it is gravy upon the largess they receive from USA


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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not money that gets the Israeli R&D going---but it is the constant threat of war and newer weapons coming into the arena that keeps them ticking to make better stuff---.
> 
> Basically their feet are on fire---and now china has its feet held to fire on SCS---. A threat of war---a constant threat of war---and imminent threat of war gets things moving and makes the brain work wonders.


What you addressed is the part of the motivation but R&D needs a lot more than war...and that is the vision, dedication, and the will. 

Both our political and military leadership lack that vision and they do the bare minimum and kind of ad hoc policy. We still don't have an integrated research and development policy at national level. 
While China and Israel both had visionary leadership that understood the significance of the indigenous development and R&D

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## MastanKhan

wiseone2 said:


> Israelis benefit from access to American and Western technology
> they had a big boost in brain power when 1 million Soviet Jews landed
> 
> Israelis do not need their indigenous R&D to safeguard their state. it is gravy upon the largess they receive from USA



Hi,

Never underestimate the skills of israeli jews. 

U S R & D just simply does not land in Israel----. The U S has its own safeguards and interests. 

Just because the U S licks Israel's behind---just becaue the americans admin whores itself out to israel---the americans still safeguard their research from everyone---. Do the israelis steal some of it---like the chinese---yes they do---.



war&peace said:


> What you addressed is the part of the motivation but R&D needs a lot more than war...and that is the vision, dedication, and the will.
> 
> Both our political and military leadership lack that vision and they do the bare minimum and kind of ad hoc policy. We still don't have an integrated research and development policy at national level.
> While China and Israel both had visionary leadership that understood the significance of the indigenous development and R&D




Hi,

When you have illiterate people as prime minister and ministers---what do you expect.

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## Sanchez

pakistanipower said:


> Their is a romurs that China is developing single engine version of J-20, so their is a possibility that we maybe get this jet in near future



It's not true. Chengdu Institute is working on a FC-31 variant or carrier borne fighter project. What's on the menu for PAF would be:
1, J-10C (with WS-10 engine)
2, J-11B or BH or D
3, J-31
All of them may be equipped with AESA radars.
Right now PLAAF fighter fleet has 300+ J-10s, 180 J-11A, 100 Su30MKK and 200+ J-11B/BS. J-10C, J-11D, J-16, and J-20 would be the newest add-ons.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not money that gets the Israeli R&D going---but it is the constant threat of war and newer weapons coming into the arena that keeps them ticking to make better stuff---.
> 
> Basically their feet are on fire---and now china has its feet held to fire on SCS---. A threat of war---a constant threat of war---and imminent threat of war gets things moving and makes the brain work wonders.



One of the driving forces was the denied access to advanced weapons or weapon techs

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## Neutron-Zone

Most probably J-31 will be considered from China Because there seems a classified investment of Pakistan in that project.
Pakistan shown interest (Well not suitable word if Pakistan has invested) immediately after the first test flight at Zhuhai.
That was too early to say that Pakistan will buy 40-50 of them.


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## Ultima Thule

Sanchez said:


> It's not true. Chengdu Institute is working on a FC-31 variant or carrier borne fighter project


sir what is you talking about. FC-31 is a *Shenyang* project not a *Chengdu* project


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## Sanchez

pakistanipower said:


> sir what is you talking about. FC-31 is a *Shenyang* project not a *Chengdu* project



yes， but the carrier borne 5G fighter is designated to Chengdu，it’s a enlarged FC-31 at least

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## Ultima Thule

Sanchez said:


> yes， but the carrier borne 5G fighter is designated to Chengdu，it’s a enlarged FC-31 at least


sir please provide the reliable links and not from some military blogs thank you


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## Erroroverload

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you are just winging it because of your reasoning---then don't.


explain plz


----------



## Zain Malik

I


Sanchez said:


> It's not true. Chengdu Institute is working on a FC-31 variant or carrier borne fighter project. What's on the menu for PAF would be:
> 1, J-10C (with WS-10 engine)
> 2, J-11B or BH or D
> 3, J-31
> All of them may be equipped with AESA radars.
> Right now PLAAF fighter fleet has 300+ J-10s, 180 J-11A, 100 Su30MKK and 200+ J-11B/BS. J-10C, J-11D, J-16, and J-20 would be the newest add-ons.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the driving forces was the denied access to advanced weapons or weapon techs


 Its shenyang's project not Chengdu's


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## Village life

Pakistan will keep waiting and waiting till the FC31 comes out ,till then j 10 will remain in chinies colors with a quick adhensible sticker of pak flag in China, that's my guess.


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## Sanchez

FC-31 project is under internal debate and it's future is unclear.

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## Zain Malik

Sanchez said:


> FC-31 project is under internal debate and it's future is unclear.


You mean to say we should consider some other source...??



paindobaba said:


> Pakistan will keep waiting and waiting till the FC31 comes out ,till then j 10 will remain in chinies colors with a quick adhensible sticker of pak flag in China, that's my guess.


your guess...???

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## Dr Shaheryar

Pakistan should go for J-10 C as a stop gap just like Indian Rafael and then focus on new platform.

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## Neutron-Zone

Sanchez said:


> FC-31 project is under internal debate and it's future is unclear.


not so good


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## Village life

Well the model of FC31 and the comments of P.Musharif on the eve of jf rollout led me tu guess this sir ,


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## thrilainmanila

Dr Shaheryar said:


> Pakistan should go for J-10 C as a stop gap just like Indian Rafael and then focus on new platform.


J-10C won't do a damn thing. Honestly the J-10 looks a pretty plane, but i'm a 100% certain that if you got a F-16C/D from the 90s it would still outshine it. the PLAAF have invested in the SU-35 that tells you how much trust they have in there own indigenous machines, even after hearing all this Bullshit over the last couple of years on how great the J-16 (and how the USN are shitting there pants). they still dropped it and chose the SU-35.


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## royalharris

thrilainmanila said:


> J-10C won't do a damn thing. Honestly the J-10 looks a pretty plane, but i'm a 100% certain that if you got a F-16C/D from the 90s it would still outshine it. the PLAAF have invested in the SU-35 that tells you how much trust they have in there own indigenous machines, even after hearing all this Bullshit over the last couple of years on how great the J-16 (and how the USN are shitting there pants). they still dropped it and chose the SU-35.


You know nothing about why china buy su35?simple head!


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## Akasa

thrilainmanila said:


> J-10C won't do a damn thing. Honestly the J-10 looks a pretty plane, but i'm a 100% certain that if you got a F-16C/D from the 90s it would still outshine it.



On what technical basis do you make your claims?



thrilainmanila said:


> the PLAAF have invested in the SU-35 that tells you how much trust they have in there own indigenous machines, even after hearing all this Bullshit over the last couple of years on how great the J-16 (and how the USN are shitting there pants). they still dropped it and chose the SU-35.



The Su-35 deal, if true, has nothing to do with a lack of capability, perceived or otherwise, considering that the J-11D/15A/16 offer essentially the same league of technological enhancements and that there are rumors the Chinese are retrofitting the Su-35s with their own set of avionics and weaponry.

There is nothing to suggest that the J-16 program is in trouble.

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## thrilainmanila

royalharris said:


> You know nothing about why china buy su35?simple head!





SinoSoldier said:


> On what technical basis do you make your claims?
> 
> 
> 
> The Su-35 deal, if true, has nothing to do with a lack of capability, perceived or otherwise, considering that the J-11D/15A/16 offer essentially the same league of technological enhancements and that there are rumors the Chinese are retrofitting the Su-35s with their own set of avionics and weaponry.
> 
> The J-16 has not been canceled and is in the process of being inducted.


my point is that if The J-11 series was as magnificent as people make out if they've reached the kind of milestone people claim why buy an advance fighter off the shelf which is derived from the SU-27 series (even though its heavily modified one at that), you already have the foundations to it, you've already said you've built an advanced J11D and J-15/J16 which is 4+++ generation why buy from russians, that only tells me one thing theres a lack of confidence in your own product. Eventually china will surpass Russia but as of right now they know there own inhouse products still fall short. the J-16/J-11D are essentially a strike fighters which share the same role as the SU-35, PLAAF know the SU-35 will do the job better thats why they decided to go with it.


----------



## Akasa

thrilainmanila said:


> my point is that if The J-11 series was as magnificent as people make out if they've reached the kind of milestone people claim why buy an advance fighter off the shelf which is derived from the SU-27 series (even though its heavily modified one at that), you already have the foundations to it, you've already said you've built an advanced J11D and J-15/J16 which is 4+++ generation why buy from russians, that only tells me one thing theres a lack of confidence in your own product. Eventually china will surpass Russia but as of right now they know there own inhouse products still fall short. the J-16/J-11D are essentially a strike fighters which share the same role as the SU-35, PLAAF know the SU-35 will do the job better thats why they decided to go with it.



There are multitudes of reasons as to why a Su-35 purchase makes sense, given the current political and logistical circumstances, even with the advent of advanced J-11X derivatives. A Su-35 purchase is a way to boost current numbers, in a reasonable time frame, without hampering the production of other fighter aircraft that happen to occupy the same assembly line. It is not exactly trivial to keep simultaneous production lines open for the J-11D, J-15A, and J-16 with burgeoning demand for such platforms. Purchasing Su-35s is also a way for the Chinese to exhibit political and economic solidarity with the Russians.

My point is that there are endless reasons as to why the Chinese settled a purchase of the Su-35, but given the lackluster quantity that was ordered, as well as the production of three other fighters of the same performance class, the deal is unlikely a result of an urgent need for technology.

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## MastanKhan

thrilainmanila said:


> J-10C won't do a damn thing. Honestly the J-10 looks a pretty plane, but i'm a 100% certain that if you got a F-16C/D from the 90s it would still outshine it. the PLAAF have invested in the SU-35 that tells you how much trust they have in there own indigenous machines, even after hearing all this Bullshit over the last couple of years on how great the J-16 (and how the USN are shitting there pants). they still dropped it and chose the SU-35.



Hi,

Your assessment seems to be incorrect---. The chinese have gone for the SU35 for the reason of the level of hostilities in their front yard---.

They want to fill in the hole at their top tier by every means possible lest a confrontation takes place and they do not have much to depend upon---. The current J10C with Irst and aesa would be reasonably placed between the BLK52 and BLK60.

Some options of the BLK52 will be superior to the J10C---but the aircraft in itself is a step forward---.

Pakistan may chose and opt for a western / Turkish EW suite for this aircraft-.

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## Akasa

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assessment seems to be incorrect---. The chinese have gone for the SU35 for the reason of the level of hostilities in their front yard---.
> 
> They want to fill in the hole at their top tier by every means possible lest a confrontation takes place and they do not have much to depend upon---. The current J10C with Irst and aesa would be reasonably placed between the BLK52 and BLK60.
> 
> Some options of the BLK52 will be superior to the J10C---but the aircraft in itself is a step forward---.
> 
> Pakistan may chose and opt for a western / Turkish EW suite for this aircraft-.



Actually, I would rank the J-10C as somewhere between the Block 60 and the F-16V, given the sheer similarity of their upgrade schemes (AESA radar, IRST, revamped cockpit, integration of longer-ranged weaponry, airframe enhancements, etc.). The J-10C and the Su-35 are two unrelated platforms for two divergent niches; the purchase was not precipitated by any perceived lack in capability of the J-10C.

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## thrilainmanila

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assessment seems to be incorrect---. The chinese have gone for the SU35 for the reason of the level of hostilities in their front yard---.
> 
> They want to fill in the hole at their top tier by every means possible lest a confrontation takes place and they do not have much to depend upon---. The current J10C with Irst and aesa would be reasonably placed between the BLK52 and BLK60.
> 
> Some options of the BLK52 will be superior to the J10C---but the aircraft in itself is a step forward---.
> 
> Pakistan may chose and opt for a western / Turkish EW suite for this aircraft-.


the money Pak would pay for the J-10C then to retrofitt it with a different EW suit, they'd be better off buying the SU-35 it may be even cheaper and even better (when your buying su-35 your guaranteed High class performance) with J-10 its unknown.

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## MastanKhan

thrilainmanila said:


> the money Pak would pay for the J-10C then to retrofitt it with a different EW suit, they'd be better off buying the SU-35 it may be even cheaper and even better (when your buying su-35 your guaranteed High class performance) with J-10 its unknown.




Hi,

The J10C would still be cheaper---but then you have to see first if the SU35 is available or not.

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## Akasa

thrilainmanila said:


> the money Pak would pay for the J-10C then to retrofitt it with a different EW suit, they'd be better off buying the SU-35 it may be even cheaper and even better (when your buying su-35 your guaranteed High class performance) with J-10 its unknown.



The Su-35's performance isn't any more known than that of the J-10C.

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## thrilainmanila

SinoSoldier said:


> The Su-35's performance isn't any more known than that of the J-10C.


SU-35 gives you high class guaranteed performance, trailed and tested, the J-10C is an experimentation. The SU-35 is based upon proven 4th generation technology thats evolved, the J-10 hasn't gone through the same evolution.


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## Akasa

thrilainmanila said:


> SU-35 gives you high class guaranteed performance



Guaranteed by what/whom? How is this guarantee validated any more than that of any other fighter aircraft?



thrilainmanila said:


> , trailed and tested,



As are any other aircraft.



thrilainmanila said:


> the J-10C is an experimentation.



The J-10C is in service, a few steps further than "experimentation".



thrilainmanila said:


> The SU-35 is based upon proven 4th generation technology thats evolved,



What does "proven" mean to you? If by "proven" you allude to weapons qualifications and evaluation, then the Su-35 is no special case, as other aircraft undergo the exact same route.



thrilainmanila said:


> the J-10 hasn't gone through the same evolution.



Uh, yes, it has.

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## thrilainmanila

SinoSoldier said:


> Guaranteed by what/whom? How is this guarantee validated any more than that of any other fighter aircraft?
> 
> 
> 
> As are any other aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> The J-10C is in service, a few steps further than "experimentation".
> 
> 
> 
> What does "proven" mean to you? If by "proven" you allude to weapons qualifications and evaluation, then the Su-35 is no special case, as other aircraft undergo the exact same route.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, yes, it has.


China brought the SU-27 series there basing all there latest aircraft designs on the Flankers, the flankers have evolved the SU-30 evolved from the SU-27 and took it to another level just look at the SU-30. the design evolved and became an international success story 10 Nations including china purchased the SU-30(china brought 94 jets), the SU-34 Came along and now the SU-35 the aircraft is based on trailed and tested technology which has been upgraded on internationally proven 4th generation ++ technology. The same can not be said about the J-10 which is an experimentation fighter jet, its evolution is limited.


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## Akasa

thrilainmanila said:


> China brought the SU-27 series there basing all there latest aircraft designs on the Flankers, the flankers have evolved the SU-30 evolved from the SU-27 and took it to another level just look at the SU-30. the design evolved and became an international success story 10 Nations including china purchased the SU-30(china brought 94 jets), the SU-34 Came along and now the SU-35 the aircraft is based on trailed and tested technology which has been upgraded on internationally proven 4th generation ++ technology. The same can not be said about the J-10 which is an experimentation fighter jet, its evolution is limited.



Are you being serious? All aircraft are designed around principles that have been grounded in previous platforms and/or engineering studies. Whether one aircraft is a direct descendant of another or not has no bearing on the persistent fact that its design is a direct product of other aircraft that preceded it.

If the above does little to convince you, then it is worth noting that the J-10 design evolved from the J-9 design that originated in the 1970s.

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## thrilainmanila

SinoSoldier said:


> Are you being serious? All aircraft are designed around principles that have been grounded in previous platforms and/or engineering studies. Whether one aircraft is a direct descendant of another or not has no bearing on the persistent fact that its design is a direct product of other aircraft that preceded it.
> 
> If the above does little to convince you, then it is worth noting that the J-10 design evolved from the J-9 design that originated in the 1970s.


J-10s design evolved but not the fighter!!!, the design really started to take off once israel sold its lavi design. The J-10 as a fighter has not gone through the same radical change, the Flanker is masterful in the sense that its proven 4G+ the SU-30 right now can compete with the F-15E strike eagle and is on level with it. yet its being perfected to the oomph degree which is truely a credit to the russians i can't say the same for the J-10, you think the J-10C could compete with a SU-30MKK i doubt it sir. J-10 isn't mature enough.


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## Akasa

thrilainmanila said:


> J-10s design evolved but not the fighter!!!, the design really started to take off once israel sold its lavi design. The J-10 as a fighter has not gone through the same radical change, the Flanker is masterful in the sense that its proven 4G+ the SU-30 right now can compete with the F-15E strike eagle and is on level with it. yet its being perfected to the oomph degree which is truely a credit to the russians i can't say the same for the J-10, you think the J-10C could compete with a SU-30MKK i doubt it sir. J-10 isn't mature enough.



You didn't read my post, did you?

All aircraft, be it the Su-27 family or the one-off Gripen, are designed according to engineering and aeronautical principles that do not fluctuate from design to design. Hence, it is pointless to use the virtue of being "proven" to gauge an aircraft's capabilities since its design would be rooted in these engineering principles regardless of its airframe lineage. A Sukhoi Su-27 is not in any way "superior" to a Gripen just because the former belongs to a large design series.

I do not know what "radical change" you speak of is so important to an aircraft's capabilities, but keep note that the J-10C sports an AESA radar in addition to integrated solid-state electronics, new EW suite, application of radar absorbent and composite material, cockpit upgrades, and MAWS. Not one member of the Su-30 family can claim to have all of that.

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## wiseone2

thrilainmanila said:


> SU-35 gives you high class guaranteed performance, trailed and tested, the J-10C is an experimentation. The SU-35 is based upon proven 4th generation technology thats evolved, the J-10 hasn't gone through the same evolution.



which independent or professional air force has tested the Su-35 ? I know the PLAAF acquired 24 aircraft. that is more to absorb technology.

I am sure it is a capable aircraft. how good is it ? how reliable is it ? those are unknowns

The J-10 is a complete black hole. No one outside of China knows the full story. May be the CIA


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## 帅的一匹

Su35 is dual engine and J10 is single engine, comparison between them doesn't make sense.


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## Zain Malik

Thats true.

Today i have seen you after a long time. WELCOME BACK.


wanglaokan said:


> Su35 is dual engine and J10 is single engine, comparison between them doesn't make sense.

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