# Culture wars: Pakistan to demand 4,500 old artefact back from India



## ashok321

*Culture wars: Pakistan to demand 4,500 old artefact back from India:* 







Now, Pakistan is going on the offensive on the cultural front, with plans to "get back from India" a bronze Mohenjodaro statuette called 'Dancing Girl', a 4500-year-old artefact of which British archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler said, "There's nothing like her, I think, in the world."

The 10.5 centimetre high statuette, dating around 2500 BC, was discovered in 1926 from the ancient city Mohenjodaro of the Indus Valley Civilisation in Sindh, by British archaeologist Ernest Mackay. It's housed in New Delhi's National Museum, Pakistani media reported. 

Syed Jamal Shah, the director general of Pakistan National Council of the Arts, is quoted by the Daily Times as saying the statue will be demanded under UNESCO conventions. He said that this is the first time that a request will be made about this to the Indian government and that "the purpose of seeking the return of 'Dancing Girl' "was to protect the heritage".

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## Goenitz

have to steal it like niazi pistol was 'stolen'....
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...stol-stolen-from-museum/articleshow/49432.cms

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## Flash_Ninja

More money needs to be put into cultural programs. 

Ancient history of Pakistan seems to be something that only the elites or academics are aware/interested in.

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## ito

India is the rightful owner of all the artifacts found before 1947 on the subcontinent.

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## coffee_cup

Yes, we want it back!

We are proud inheritors of thousands of years old Indus Valley / Ghandara civilizations.

No matter how much the fake country called "India" (which was created by British in 1947 after combining and forcing several independent states into one) and her Mumbaikas residents want to lay claim on IVC, Inca, Egyptian civilizations, they have absolutely nothing to do with these civilizations.



Kash_Ninja said:


> More money needs to be put into cultural programs.
> 
> Ancient history of Pakistan seems to be something that only the elites or academics are aware/interested in.



Exactly.

That is why we should create an awareness in our country about our great thousands years old civilization.

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## dray

Kash_Ninja said:


> More money needs to be put into cultural programs.
> 
> Ancient history of Pakistan seems to be something that only the elites or academics are aware/interested in.



Hmmm........then start with Vedas, Upanishad, then Ramayana and Mahabharata. Read about the work of Aryabhatta, Sushrut, Barahamihir, read about ancient Indian work on mathematics, medicine, astronomy, philosophy, litetature, etc. Today's Pakistan was also a part of it, but later they discarded and disowned all of it.

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## Tameem

Traditional Pakistani Sindhi Women....with the bangles upto their sleeves is in fashion for last 4500 Years ...hmmmm.

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## Arbiter

Rain Man said:


> Besides, those artifacts are supposed to be unislamic and contrary to Pakistani culture.


These artifacts represents the history of the land of Indus, which is modern Pakistan. People of Indus through out the history have had different culture, language and religion, and all of that is part of the history of this land. Just because modern day Indus have different language and religion doesn't make it's history alienated to the land. These artifacts belong to the land where they originated from, which is.modern day Pakistan.

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## dray

Arbiter said:


> These artifacts represents the history of the land of Indus, which is modern Pakistan. People of Indus through out the history have had different culture and religion, and all of that is part of the history of this land. Just because modern day Indus have different language and religion doesn't make it's history alienated to the land. These artifacts belong to the land where they originated from, which is.modern day Pakistan.



Say, today you live in a house with your family, kids, your furniture's, etc. Tomorrow you move to a different house, then who will be the inheritor of your family, kids, furnitures, your family history, culture and heritage, you or the new owner of the house you left behind?

The history, culture, legacy, identity, heritage, and its artifacts of ancient Indian civilization (also known as IVC) are safely with us Indians, the true inheritors.

Pakistanis have already discarded and disowned all of it, now this kneejerk reaction to claim it is devoid of any basis.

More importantly, your radicals might be offended about this claim and put those artifacts into the risk of getting destroyed, if those are handed over to pakistan just for argument's sake.

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## 4GTejasBVR

Rain Man said:


> Besides, those artifacts are supposed to be unislamic and contrary to Pakistani culture.


Seriously lol they have gone nuts. So what is the right they are claiming about? Are they the Hindus? 


Tameem said:


> Traditional Pakistani Sindhi Women....with the bangles upto their sleeves is in fashion for last 4500 Years ...hmmmm.



These are Hindus. U can see these traditional styles in all Indian states from Kashmir to Kanyakumari

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## hussain0216

Rain Man said:


> Hmmm........then start with Vedas, Upanishad, then Ramayana and Mahabharata. Read about the work of Aryabhatta, Sushrut, Barahamihir, read about ancient Indian work on mathematics, medicine, astronomy, philosophy, litetature, etc. Today's Pakistan was also a part of it, but later they discarded and disowned all of it.



We dont need to read any mumbo jumbo we just want any historical artefacts from our land to remain in and be displayed in our land

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## Arbiter

Rain Man said:


> Say, today you live in a house with your family, kids, your furniture's, etc. Tomorrow you move to a different house, then who will be the inheritor of your family, kids, furnitures, your family history, culture and heritage, you or the new owner of the house you left behind?
> 
> The history, culture, legacy, identity, heritage, and its artifacts of ancient Indian civilization (also known as IVC) are safely with us Indians, the true inheritors.
> 
> Pakistanis have already discarded and disowned all of it, now this kneejerk reaction to claim it is devoid of any basis.
> 
> More importantly, your radicals might be offended about this claim and put those artifacts into the risk of getting destroyed, if those are handed over to pakistan just for argument's sake.


Indus civilization is just that Indus, not Ganges. Indus civilization didn't strench to plains of Ganges. The logic you used describes Indians perfectly. Naming your country after a river that predominantly flows in Pakistan doesn't make it's identity yours. You don't live on this land, neither is this land your home. We live here, our forefathers have lived here. We haven't moved anywhere. We are the owners of this land. This is our land, not yours. This is our home not yours. This is our history not yours. What we decide to do with our history and artifacts is our decision to make not yours.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

@Kaptaan @PaklovesTurkiye @PAKISTANFOREVER @Pakistan First friends...this belongs to you! Are you going to let your heritage stolen? 

BTW this is just half timeframe of your known history...

Dont let your history and heritage be robbed in broad day light...

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## ConcealCarry

and you pulled that law from your skinny behind?



ito said:


> India is the rightful owner of all the artifacts found before 1947 on the subcontinent.

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## hussain0216

Acknowledge said:


> Why would we give up part of one of the Heritage's of India to wannabe arab.
> 
> Pakistanis are foolish to even ask.



We are are determined to protect the heritage of our land, why should foreign dark easterners be allowed to steal artifacts from our land that has nothing to do with them?

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## Mustang06

What happens if India does not give back the artifacts?


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## hussain0216

Bihari Sher said:


> IVC where high caste Brahmins and Pakistanis are all lower caste converts.



We dont have caste system here, we are all taller, fairer and better looking then our caste obsessed eastern neighbours

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ito said:


> India is the rightful owner of all the artifacts found before 1947 on the subcontinent.





Rain Man said:


> Besides, those artifacts are supposed to be unislamic and contrary to Pakistani culture.



They were discovered and stolen from our lands.. not south indian jungles or the dark swamps of bengal,



Rain Man said:


> Say, today you live in a house with your family, kids, your furniture's, etc. Tomorrow you move to a different house, then who will be the inheritor of your family, kids, furnitures, your family history, culture and heritage, you or the new owner of the house you left behind?
> 
> The history, culture, legacy, identity, heritage, and its artifacts of ancient Indian civilization (also known as IVC) are safely with us Indians, the true inheritors.
> 
> Pakistanis have already discarded and disowned all of it, now this kneejerk reaction to claim it is devoid of any basis.
> 
> More importantly, your radicals might be offended about this claim and put those artifacts into the risk of getting destroyed, if those are handed over to pakistan just for argument's sake.



So you a bengali have roots in modern day PAKISTAN? Your great great great great grandfather must be of Pakistani stock right?

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They were discovered and stolen from our lands.. not south indian jungles or the dark swamps of bengal,
> 
> 
> 
> So you a bengali have roots in modern day PAKISTAN? Your great great great great grandfather must be of Pakistani stock right?



Pakistan is Eternal, my young Warrior Brother!

From older than the Fire of Nimrud came the Baloch... don't you see them on the Sumerian Reliefs? 

From Heart of Siberia Came your Pak Pathans and the Ancient People of GB and N. Areas...

And down they migrated to your Land of Five Great Rivers and the Mystic Sindhu...have you not seen those beautiful crystal brown eyes of your peoples in the deserts of Pak? _*Without Sindhu there is no hindu*_

Don't you see the Great Bull still alive in your Punjab and your Sindh...which is on your Ancient Seal from that area...

The Civilisation never died...it just changed places after the great loss and an epidemic...

Those who have stolen your history and heritage can never really claim it...since all of your Civilisations are still alive and are in your DNA...

The Present day Pakistan is the Fountain Head of all of South West and South Asian Civlisation... indians of the plains came much later....

You might be msulims today but your DNA is Ancient... 

If ever in doubt just put the pictures of an average Pak and indian together... you will get your answers.


What is yours is yours!

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## dray

hussain0216 said:


> We dont need to read any mumbo jumbo we just want any historical artefacts from our land to remain in and be displayed in our land



Those artifacts would be useless objects without the knowledge of history and culture behind those. Besides, what your Talibans did with Buddha statues?



Arbiter said:


> Indus civilization is just that Indus, not Ganges. Indus civilization didn't strench to plains of Ganges. The logic you used describes Indians perfectly. Naming your country after a river that predominantly flows in Pakistan doesn't make it's identity yours. You don't live on this land, neither is this land your home. We live here, our forefathers have lived here. We haven't moved anywhere. We are the owners of this land. This is our land, not yours. This is our home not yours. This is our history not yours. What we decide to do with our history and artifacts is our decision to make not yours.



IVC was spread to the Ganges valley, being a continuous civilization we still have the beliefs and philosophies. Pakistanis on the contrary associate themselves with ME. 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They were discovered and stolen from our lands.. not south indian jungles or the dark swamps of bengal,
> 
> So you a bengali have roots in modern day PAKISTAN? Your great great great great grandfather must be of Pakistani stock right?



If all of humanity have their roots in Africa, then what's so difficult to accept the fact that Indians have deep connections with IVC, as the people of IVC moved further east once the mighty river Saraswati dried up, and satellite imagery proves it. You are being blind to the continuation of same culture, beliefs, and philosophies across India. 

BTW, some of the 'pithasthan' of the '51 Shaktipitha' of goddess Parvati are in the land what is now known as Pakistan, by your logic we can claim Pakistan then.

And no, we are not of Pakistani stock, they came later after the people of Indus Valley Civilization moved on towards east leaving the place deserted.



Sinopakfriend said:


> If ever in doubt just put the pictures of an average Pak and indian together... you will get your answers.



Indians, like Pakistanis are a mixed race, there is no single face that can depict an average Indian or a Pakistani.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rain Man said:


> Those artifacts would be useless objects without the knowledge of history and culture behind those



Return our artifacts and do whatever with the ones found in your country... what is ours is ours.



> Besides, what your Talibans did with Buddha statues?



Our taliban?

You mean afghan taliban whom Pak asked not to destroy Baniyam.. dont place us over the action of afghans boy.




> IVC was spread to the Ganges valley, being a continuous civilization we still have the beliefs and philosophies. Pakistanis on the contrary associate themselves with ME.









What philosophies or beliefs?




> If all of humanity have their roots in Africa, then what's so difficult to accept the fact that Indians have deep connections with IVC, as the people of IVC moved further east once the mighty river Saraswati dried up, and satellite imagery proves it. You are being blind to the continuation of same culture, beliefs, and philosophies across India.



And pigs fly.

@Kaptaan @Tergon18


> BTW, some of the 'pithasthan' of the '51 Shaktipitha' of goddess Parvati are in the land what is now known as Pakistan, by your logic we can claim Pakistan then.



On the basis of religion? than Pak may claim india if religion was used a measure for "Claiming territory".



> And no, we are not of Pakistani stock, they came later after the people of Indus Valley Civilization moved on towards east leaving the place deserted.



Who came later?



Rain Man said:


> Indians, like Pakistanis are a mixed race, there is no single face that can depict an average Indian or a Pakistani.



We arent a "mixed" race.. neither is PAKISTANI a "Race" rather a nationality composed of different ethnicities..

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## Srinivas

Don't you think Pakistan was formed to make South Asia a colony of your Arab ancestors?

Indus Valley is not a unique civilization to Indian subcontinent . it is spread all over subcontinent , British wanted a new country to fight against soviets and they invented this theory.

It is foolish to think there is no movement across the plains and to the south .

India in ancient times is just like today's India with less dense population.

If these guys know navigation and horse definitely they have travelled to all adjacent areas and exchange of ideas took place.

It is the guy's who are proposing these ideas like Aryan invasions and Indus Valley civilization that are savages and do not know much until they are colonized by Rome.

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> Yes, we want it back!



Why? Pakistanis have no respect for those 'pagans' of IVC, do they? Then why falsely claim something for which you have no respect?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Srinivas said:


> Don't you think Pakistan was formed to make South Asia a colony of your Arab ancestors?



Says the south indian whose ancestors were imposing breast covering taxes on eachother till the british banned it..

Did you come from modern day Pak too? 


> Indus Valley not a unique civilization it is spread all over subcontinent , British wanted a new country to fight against soviets and they invented this theory.



And mesopotamia spead over the entire ME.. right? screw your logic.



> It is foolish to think there is no movement across the plains and to the south .


Yeah thousands years ago people of a great civilisation were going thousands of miles into tropical jungles of pochipochi or whatever you call your city/jungle...



> India in ancient times is just like today's India with less dense population.


which ancient india?


> If these guys know navigation and horse definitely they have travelled to all adjacent areas and exchange of ideas took place.


So guys from mighty IVC went to the jungles of south india for ideas instead of other great contemporary civilisations? 






Here are the trading partners of IVC:








> It is the guy's who are proposing these ideas like Aryan invasions and Indus Valley civilization that are savages and do not know much until they are colonized by Rome.



Funny how its indian on this thread talking about aryan invasion? confused lot.



Rain Man said:


> Why? Pakistanis have no respect for those 'pagans' of IVC, do they? Then why falsely claim something for which you have no respect?



We do.. hence why we are demanding the return of artifacts stolen by british..

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## dray

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So ghtml
> from mighty IVC went to the jungles of south india for ideas instead of other great contemporary civilisations



Why not? Indians do have European and central Asian genes. How far is IVC compared to that?

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090922/full/news.2009.935.html


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## Srinivas

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Says the south indian whose ancestors were imposing breast covering taxes on eachother till the british banned it..
> 
> Did you come from modern day Pak too?
> 
> 
> And mesopotamia spead over the entire ME.. right? screw your logic.
> 
> 
> Yeah thousands years ago people of a great civilisation were going thousands of miles into tropical jungles of pochipochi or whatever you call your city/jungle...
> 
> 
> which ancient india?
> 
> So guys from mighty IVC went to the jungles of south india for ideas instead of other great contemporary civilisations?
> 
> View attachment 342209
> 
> 
> Here are the trading partners of IVC:
> 
> View attachment 342210
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny how its indian on this thread talking about aryan invasion? confused lot.
> 
> 
> 
> We do.. hence why we are demanding the return of artifacts stolen by british..



Kid take an example of today and how ideas and techniques are spread because of communication and transport.

The same phenomena is been happening in ancient times but at a slower pace.

These guys interacted with adjacent regions and exchange of ideas took place also there are sites in south India as well which point to the fact the civilization is spread across sub continent.

India is an advanced civilization at that time , you can verify historians .

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## Śakra

pakistan only wants it because India has it.

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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> Why? Pakistanis have no respect for those 'pagans' of IVC, do they? Then why falsely claim something for which you have no respect?



Wrong.

You can keep believing in your stereotypes, whereas our Museums in Taxila, Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Lahore Karachi thrive.

And just stop laying claims on other people's civilizations, it makes a mockery out of Indians. You have nothing to do with Indus Valley, Ghandara, Egyptian, Inca civilizations.

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## Indika

Śakra said:


> pakistan only wants it because India has it.


right, if china had it they would say please keep it and we will give some more!
Pakistan can claim whatever it wants but ancient culture & heritage belongs to India and world recognizes it as well.
Ancient customs & tradition which is passed on through ages is followed by Indians.

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## Śakra

Indika said:


> right, if china had it they would say please keep it and we will give some more!
> Pakistan can claim whatever it wants but ancient culture & heritage belongs to India and world recognizes it as well.
> Ancient customs & tradition which is passed on through ages is followed by Indians.



If they were so concerned about their customs and traditions they would celebrate diwali or holi just like Iranis celebrate Nowruz even though it was a Zoroasterian celebration and they are muslim now.

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## Spring Onion

war? why war. It is standard procedure to ask for such historical belongings

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## coffee_cup

Indika said:


> right, if china had it they would say please keep it and we will give some more!
> Pakistan can claim whatever it wants but ancient culture & heritage belongs to India and world recognizes it as well.
> Ancient customs & tradition which is passed on through ages is followed by Indians.



If Egypt gives some ancient Pharao relic as a gift to her friends like say UK, USA etc. that would be fine. A friendly gesture to share and protect ancient relics.

But if someone steals it from Egypt and displays it as their own, Egypt has a right to get it back.

So there goes your China and India analogy.

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## manojb

Mustang06 said:


> What happens if India does not give back the artifacts?


Pakistan will go UN

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## Athen

You guys destroyed temples with hundreds of years of history, you ain't getting anything more!!

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> Wrong.
> 
> You can keep believing in your stereotypes, whereas our Museums in Taxila, Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Lahore Karachi thrive.
> 
> And just stop laying claims on other people's civilizations, it makes a mockery out of Indians. You have nothing to do with Indus Valley, Ghandara, Egyptian, Inca civilizations.



That's why I asked Pakistanis to read Mahabharata, Dhritarashtra's wife Gandhari was the princes of which state? And as I told you earlier, the 51 Shaktipithas of our goddess Parvati spread from modern day Pakistan to Assam in the east. Goddess Parvati and Lord Shiva were worshipped by the people of IVC, that is us. And those archeological artifacts prove it.

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## Mentee

Śakra said:


> If they were so concerned about their customs and traditions they would celebrate diwali or holi just like Iranis celebrate Nowruz even though it was a Zoroasterian celebration and they are muslim now.


Nice try diva! Holi and divali are south Indian Hindu practices nit culture ones.btw What has a Punjabi or Sindhi got to do with it. Besides, Punjabi celebrate their equivalent of noroz cultural festival, Visaakhi

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## Indika

Rain Man said:


> That's why I asked Pakistanis to read Mahabharata, Dhritarashtra's wife Gandhari was the princes of which state? And as I told you earlier, the 51 Shaktipithas of our goddess Parvati spread from modern day Pakistan to Assam in the east. Goddess Parvati and Lord Shiva were worshipped by the people of IVC, that is us. And those archeological artifacts prove it.



Sari is a good example of who follows the tradition/culture and who gets to inherit the claim.

In the history of Indian clothing the sari is traced back to the Indus Valley Civilisation, which flourished during 2800–1800 BC around the northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent.[4][5][6] Cotton was first cultivated and woven in Indian subcontinent around 5th millennium BC.[14] Dyes used during this period are still in use, particularly indigo, lac, red madder and turmeric.[15] Silk was woven around 2450 BC and 2000 BC.[16][17] The earliest known depiction of the sari in the Indian subcontinent is the statue of an Indus Valley priest wearing a drape.[4][5][6]

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## Djinn

Rain Man said:


> Besides, those artifacts are supposed to be unislamic and contrary to Pakistani culture.


Speaking of religious connection, does Taj Mahul ring any bells?

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> A friendly gesture to share and protect ancient relics.



Yes, we want to protect it, so can't give it to a country that might find it unislamic and destroyable.

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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> That's why I asked Pakistanis to read Mahabharata, Dhritarashtra's wife Gandhari was the princes of which state? And as I told you earlier, the 51 Shaktipithas of our goddess Parvati spread from modern day Pakistan to Assam in the east. Goddess Parvati and Lord Shiva were worshipped by the people of IVC, that is us. And those archeological artifacts prove it.



I don't have to read Hindu mythology.

My grand grand grand grand grand parents were Hindus and something else before that and they built nurtured these great civilizations. Just like Egyptian and Semites were something else before they were Jews, Christians, Muslims etc.

Now some people thousands of miles across come here and start laying claims on that, just like some of them are doing for Egyptian and Inca civilizations (because some of their mythologies say that and they "believe" in it).

What do we call such vultures? **** off!



Rain Man said:


> Yes, we want to protect it, so can't give it to a country that might find it unislamic and destroyable.



You are our enemey and you have stolen it from us.

We want it back.

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## dray

Djinn said:


> Speaking of religious connection, does Taj Mahul ring any bells?



Tajmahal is a part of Indian history, but it is not a part of ancient Indian civilization, nor we claim it to be so.

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## Indika

Djinn said:


> Speaking of religious connection, does Taj Mahul ring any bells?


Taj mahal is just one of the monuments in India. India is home to several religions and culture. First mosque in south asia is in India not even pakistan. India like a sponge has absorbed every thing from parsis to Christianity. We are not disowning any thing per se.

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## Djinn

Athen said:


> You guys destroyed temples with hundreds of years of history, you ain't getting anything more!!


And you destroyed Mosques, Churches and Gurdwara's. You people are no better.

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## Śakra

Mentee said:


> Nice try diva! Holi and divali are south Indian Hindu practices nit culture ones.



Absolute lies. Hindus across the world celebrate Diwali in honor of the return of Lord Rama, his wife Sita and his brother Lakshmana from exile of 14 years after Rama defeated Ravana. To honor the return of Lord Rama, Sita and Lakshmana from Lanka and to illuminate their path, villagers light Diyas to celebrate the triumph of good over evil.

There is a symbolic legend to explain why Holi is celebrated as a festival of colours. The word "Holi" originates from "Holika", the evil sister of the demon king Hiranyakashipu. The festival itself is believed to have origins from the Prahladpuri Temple[17] of Multan in the Punjab region.[18] The original temple of Prahladpuri is said to have been built by Prahlada, Hiranyakashipu's son.[19]




> Besides, Punjabi celebrate their equivalent of noroz cultural festival, Visaakhi



I've never seen a muslim Punjabi celebrate Visakhi.




The point still stands, if pakistanis are so concerned about customs and culture of their supposed ancestors, why don't you celebrate their celebrations?



Rain Man said:


> Tajmahal is a part of Indian history, but it is not a part of ancient Indian civilization, nor we claim it to be so.



Nor do we define ourselves as the "Hindu Republic of India" so we have no problems accepting other religions as our own.

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## Djinn

Indika said:


> Taj mahal is just one of the monuments in India. India is home to several religions and culture. First mosque in south asia is in India not even pakistan. India like a sponge has absorbed every thing from parsis to Christianity.


Quite lame excuses wont you agree. Hindu nationalism trumps all in India. My point was in reference to someone who dragged in religion and hence my valid point is indisputable. Rest i dont care two hoot about that ugly statue or that old rusty building. Art and History have never been my thing.

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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> Yes, we want to protect it, so can't give it to a country that might find it unislamic and destroyable.



Egyptians, be careful. 

Don't let these fanatic Hindus visit your museums. They will steal some relics from there and will then want to "protect" it.

Thieves!

Pakistan has done the right thing to approach UNESCO to get it back.

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> I don't have to read Hindu mythology.
> 
> My grand grand grand grand grand parents were Hindus and something else before that and they built nurtured these great civilizations. Just like Egyptian and Semites were something else before they were Jews, Christians, Muslims etc.
> 
> Now some people thousands of miles across come here and start laying claims on that, just like some of them are doing for Egyptian and Inca civilizations (because some of their mythologies say that and they "believe" in it).
> 
> What do we call such vultures? **** off!
> 
> 
> 
> You are our enemey and you have stolen it from us.
> 
> We want it back.



Most Pakistanis here associate themselves with the Muslim invaders and even celebrate the genocide of Hindus in Hindukush, repeatedly......so their claim on Hindu ancestry or IVC is highly questionable. *You can't conveniently be the conquering Muslims and defeated Hindus of that region at the same time, can you? First decide who you are, then stick to it for some time, and then come back. *

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## coffee_cup

Djinn said:


> Quite lame excuses wont you agree. Hindu nationalism trumps all in India. My point was in reference to someone who dragged in religion and hence my valid point is indisputable. Rest i dont care two hoot about that ugly statue or that old rusty building. Art and History have never been my thing.



You are arguing with a wall bro.

These fanatic Hindus have started to believe that everyone was Hindu and therefore they are inheritors of their belongings. Quite a conveniet way to steal things, I would say.

Soon they will start laying claims on Egyptian and Inca civilizations as well.



Rain Man said:


> Most Pakistanis here associate themselves with the Muslim invaders



I don't care what they associate themselves with.

*We Pakistanis are the true inheritors of IVC.*

You can keep believing in whatever mythologies, but you have nothing to do with IVC and Ghandara.

Now go and get another fresh bollywood dose from your jingoistic media and Modi about "SirGKal" strikes.

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## Levina

Djinn said:


> And you destroyed Mosques, Churches and Gurdwara's.


Oh!
That must be the reason we are a country that has the third highest population of muslims in the world.


Mentee said:


> Holi and divali are south Indian Hindu practices nit culture ones.


You're wrong bro.
Malayalis or ppl of my state used to not celebrate diwali or holi, till very recently.
These are north Indian festivals.
Though north Indian culture now seems to have influenced the south and I'm not complaining.

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## Athen

manojb said:


> Pakistan will go UN


How many times are you guys gonna embarrasse yourself at UN, tell me one incident where Pakistan won against India at UN.. Name one!!

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## Mentee

Śakra said:


> Absolute lies. Hindus across the world celebrate Diwali in honor of the return of Lord Rama, his wife Sita and his brother Lakshmana from exile of 14 years after Rama defeated Ravana. To honor the return of Lord Rama, Sita and Lakshmana from Lanka and to illuminate their path, villagers light Diyas to celebrate the triumph of good over evil.
> 
> There is a symbolic legend to explain why Holi is celebrated as a festival of colours. The word "Holi" originates from "Holika", the evil sister of the demon king Hiranyakashipu. The festival itself is believed to have origins from the Prahladpuri Temple[17] of Multan in the Punjab region.[18] The original temple of Prahladpuri is said to have been built by Prahlada, Hiranyakashipu's son.[19]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen a muslim Punjabi celebrate Visakhi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point still stands, if pakistanis are so concerned about customs and culture of their supposed ancestors, why don't you celebrate their celebrations?
> 
> 
> 
> Nor do we define ourselves as the "Hindu Republic of India" so we have no problems accepting other religions as our own.


Thank you for proving my point that its a Hindu festival! Not a cultural one.



Śakra said:


> I've never seen a muslim Punjabi celebrate Visakhi.


It's not my fault that you've never been to Pakistani Punjab, Muslim along with Sikh pilgrims overwhelmingly celebrate visaakhi every year. I think since you are a south Indian so you don't have any idea about the cultural practices of Punjab! Ask any Indian Punjabi Sikh, who had the opportunity to visit Panja Sahab in Pak-------

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## coffee_cup

Athen said:


> How many times are you guys gonna embarrasse yourself at UN, tell me one incident where Pakistan won against India at UN.. Name one!!



UNESCO is the proper platform for getting back stolen ancient relics.

And Pakistan is doing the proper thing to go to UNESCO.

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## Athen

Anyway come on guys you have CPEC the greatest thing ever happened to humanity.. That can keep your history rich for the next thousand years... Leave those useless statues to India! Good night!!!


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## coffee_cup

Mentee said:


> It's not my fault that you've never been to Pakistani Punjab, Muslim along with Sikh pilgrims overwhelmingly celebrate visaakhi every year. I think since you are a south Indian so you don't have any idea about the cultural practices of Punjab! Ask any Indian Punjabi Sikh, who had the opportunity to visit Panja Sahab in Pak-------



Exactly, Gurduwaras are being taken really good care of. Every Sikh Yatri who has been in Pakistan can testify to that.

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## Mentee

Levina said:


> Malyalis or ppl of my state used to not celebrate diwali or holi, till very recently.


I've read somewhere that there exist Hindus in south India, I think Tamils who hold ravana , the arch enemy of lord Ram in high esteem and divali is celebrated coz ravana was killed by Lord Ram, right! So this might be the reason for south Indians for not adopting this north Indian festival?


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## Djinn

Levina said:


> Oh!
> That must be the reason we are a country that has the third highest population of muslims in the world.


That would also explain how a Hindu extremist like Modi who played a major role in Muslims genocide in Gujrat made it to the seat of a PM even when he was blacklisted by the US (Kindly grab the point and spare me the technicalities or "facts"). As i mentioned earlier i really am not interested in Indian version of reality or Pakistani version of things. Just wanted to let him know that there are two sides to coin, if you BHARTEEZ are not willing to accept our narrative then do expect us to reciprocate the same, hence futile argument, no? Pakistan is taking it to UNESCO let's see what they decide. Period

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## Levina

Mentee said:


> I've read somewhere that there exist Hindus in south India, I think Tamils who hold ravana , the arch enemy of lord Ram in high esteem and divali is celebrated coz ravana was killed by Lord Ram, right! So this might be the reason for south Indians for not adopting this north Indian festival?


Let me tell you, as a Hindu we have more than one version of Ramayana.
To me its perfectly okay to hold Ravana in high esteem, after all he kidnapped Sita only after his sister was "dishonored" by Lord Rama and his younger brother (ostensibly). Characters in our mythology come as close to reality as possible, they have grey shades and not just B&W, not even Lord Ram is spared.
Now, now dont misconstrue what i said. I can explain it to you in detail later elsewhere.

The real reason for holi and diwali being celebrated in North India is different. In north there's a marked difference between seasons, and not so in south India. For example holi falls on *vernal equinox*, which means it is considered the beginning of spring.
So these festivals are not just about mythology. 



Djinn said:


> That would also explain how a Hindu extremist like Modi who played a major role in *Muslims genocide* in Gujrat made it to the seat of a PM even when he was blacklisted by the US


Oh!
I wonder why was he conferred the highest civilian honour in Saudi Arabia then?

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## coffee_cup

Sinopakfriend said:


> ... friends...this belongs to you! Are you going to let your heritage stolen?
> 
> BTW this is just half timeframe of your known history...
> 
> Dont let your history and heritage be robbed in broad day light...



You are next bro, soon they are gonna claim "Qin Shi Huang" was Hindu too (because they believe so) and hence Terracotta army also belongs to India. 



Levina said:


> Oh!
> I wonder why was he awarded the highest civilian honour in Saudi Arabia then?



Things happen. Stranger things.

Like all those "Mujahideen" (OBL and his fellows) were received with red carpet in the White House and given the greatest honor in America by comparing them to American founding fathers..

As I said, stranger things happen... but the deeds of these people remain.

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## Djinn

Levina said:


> Oh!
> I wonder why was he awarded the highest civilian honour in Saudi Arabia then?


Saudis have also been smooching Bush and Obama.......Bad analogy.


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## Levina

Djinn said:


> Saudis have also been smooching Bush and Obama.......Bad analogy.


Lol
Were you not the one who said this
1.


Djinn said:


> eat of a PM even when he was blacklisted by the US



and then comes this >
2.


Djinn said:


> have also been smooching Bush and Obama.




You're contradicting yourself.


----------



## Mentee

Levina said:


> highest civilian honour in Saudi Arabia then?


That Says it all


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## Levina

Mentee said:


> That Says it all


Exactly!!!


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## Djinn

Levina said:


> Lol
> Were you not the one who said this
> 1.
> 
> 
> and then comes this >
> 2.
> 
> 
> 
> You're contradicting yourself.


Actually it goes to show that despite being anti Muslim even they found modi to be a bigger EVIL and had to compromise, did you entirely miss OBL part..............You have been unable to prove squat. About Saudis all this proves is they will befriend anyone, which actually proves you wrong

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## Levina

Djinn said:


> About Saudis all this proves is they will befriend anyone, which actually proves you wrong


Tsk tsk
Why do you blame them and befriend them according to your convenience?
They have been very supportive of your claim on Kashmir.
If what you claim is right then they should have supported India on the K issue too.



Djinn said:


> despite being anti Muslim even they found modi to be a bigger EVIL


I call this confirmation bias.

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## Pakistani E

Someone tell the mighty superior minded Indians that me changing my religion does not change my DNA.

Look Indians, this is my DNA break down according to dna.land. Did changing my religion change my DNA to "Arabic" or thousands of years of history of my ancestors?

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## Hyde

Rain Man said:


> Say, today you live in a house with your family, kids, your furniture's, etc. Tomorrow you move to a different house, then who will be the inheritor of your family, kids, furnitures, your family history, culture and heritage, you or the new owner of the house you left behind?
> 
> The history, culture, legacy, identity, heritage, and its artifacts of ancient Indian civilization (also known as IVC) are safely with us Indians, the true inheritors.
> 
> Pakistanis have already discarded and disowned all of it, now this kneejerk reaction to claim it is devoid of any basis.
> 
> More importantly, your radicals might be offended about this claim and put those artifacts into the risk of getting destroyed, if those are handed over to pakistan just for argument's sake.


You dig well in that house and the new owner of the house will inherit what is left over the land, the legacy will be passed onto the geranations regardless of its present occupier.

IVC is similar to digging a well that you don't carry with you when you are leaving the house. Its part of our culture and heritage

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## Djinn

Levina said:


> Tsk tsk
> Why do you blame them and befriend them according to your convenience?
> They have been very supportive of your claim on Kashmir.
> If what you claim is right then they should have supported India on the K issue..


Russia has been supportive of you as well and despite your GRIEVANCES they have been giving us weapons and consolidating military relations. International Relations are way more complex than your mere understating of 1+1 =2 equation. As i mentioned earlier your analogies are way too poor and completely out of context. Whatever sort of relations countries enjoy with Saudi's they are in noway a touchstone of International norm's.


> I call this confirmation bias


I call this irrational conjecturing.

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## Levina

Djinn said:


> Russia has been supportive of you as well and despite your GRIEVANCES they have been giving us weapons and consolidating military relations


Thats fine with me as long as those weapons are not better than the ones India possesses. Lol



Djinn said:


> As i mentioned earlier your analogies are way too poor and completely out of context.


Yes superman, you're the most intelligent member here.  


Ciao.

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## VCheng

Aether said:


> You dig well in that house and the new owner of the house will inherit what is left over the land, the legacy will be passed onto the geranations regardless of its present occupier.
> 
> IVC is similar to digging a well that you don't carry with you when you are leaving the house. Its part of our culture and heritage



Does the new owner ask for all the water drawn previously by the old owners to be returned also? Or does his right is only on the water to be drawn henceforward from the well?

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## Indika

Aether said:


> You dig well in that house and the new owner of the house will inherit what is left over the land, the legacy will be passed onto the geranations regardless of its present occupier.
> 
> IVC is similar to digging a well that you don't carry with you when you are leaving the house. Its part of our culture and heritage


Suppose you occupy a chinese structured house inhabited by chinese they will still call it chinese not pakistani one.
Just by staying in the house you cannot claim the legacy or culture. Good example is clothing. Sari originated in Indus valley but who can lay claim to it ? 

If you know the difference between institution & building you will understand the difference. You can buy a excellent engineering college but not its excellence. Thats a legacy which was built by ppl which cannot be claimed by simply occupying it.

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## Djinn

Levina said:


> Thats fine with me as long as those weapons are not better than the ones India possesses. Lol
> 
> 
> Yes superman, you're the most intelligent member here.
> 
> 
> Ciao.


Then tell your Indian government to not burst its nerves over our interaction with Russians. I hope you know what i am talking about? 
I would prefer to be called Batman, Superman never really resonated with me...........Much too fictitious concept and i like to keep things real.

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## Hyde

Indika said:


> Suppose you occupy a chinese structured house inhabited by chinese they will still call it chinese not pakistani one.
> Just by staying in the house you cannot claim the legacy or culture. Good example is clothing. Sari originated in Indus valley but who can lay claim to it ?
> 
> If you know the difference between institution & building you will understand the difference. You can buy a excellent engineering college but not its excellence. Thats a legacy which was built by ppl which cannot be claimed by simply occupying it.


I have previously taken soft approach when it comes to negoating peace with India and willing to compromise on most matters possible but IVC is a joint heritage of both nations.

Its technically the heritage of this subcontinent but when you go for common sense the IVC is situated in most part of Pakistan. If our great forefathers were Hindu and they founded a civilization and later our forefathers converted to Islam it doesn't mean whatever their fathers had built doesn't belong to them anymore.

If I used to drink from a glass of water, regardless of what religion I belong to, my ancestors can lay claim on its heritage regardless of their present situation. I do acknowledge that most of the IVC has religious significance with Hinduism but it doesn't mean that the Hindu's of our subcontient has automatic right to lay claim on the heritage of my forefathers.

If I invent a mobile phone, my children can lay claim on it. If my children change their religion, it doesn't mean I am no longer their father and some other Muslim living in Kerala would come in the fore to claim on its heritage for sharing the same religion with me

Edit: In my opinion IVC belongs to the people of IVC and almost entire IVC is situated in Pakistan. Around 5 million Hindus lives on the banks of IVC and millions of Muslims are still residing in the same land whose forefathers converted to Islam during past 1400 years

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## Indika

Aether said:


> ts technically the heritage of this subcontinent but when you go for common sense the IVC is situated in most part of Pakistan. If our great forefathers were Hindu and they founded a civilization and later our forefathers converted to Islam it doesn't mean whatever their fathers had built doesn't belong to them anymore.


you are correct but none your ilk wants to recognize it as a joint heritage. They are more prone to sub plant non south asian culture to pakistan and virtually deny the origins of India. They are simply hell bent on disassociating any thing relating to India and provide a religious slant to every thing.
Its a thing found only in pakistan where as other civilizations like Egyptians proud about their past.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Srinivas said:


> Kid



Dude take a good look at yourself and me... you barely reach my shoulder... so stop throwing around childish insult like a punk *** ...



> take an example of today and how ideas and techniques are spread because of communication and transport.
> 
> The same phenomena is been happening in ancient times but at a slower pace.


Sure ... but not mass migration.



> These guys interacted with adjacent regions and exchange of ideas took place also there are sites in south India as well which point to the fact the civilization is spread across sub continent.



Civilisations exchanged ideas with civilisations not jungle dwelling aboriginals... 

Indus exchanged ideas and traded with contemporary civilisations ... but i doubt they all left to south india and ironically didnt create any civilisation there? thats stupidity at work.

Arabs travellers and merchants also contructed trading posts etc all over the region but you can hardly call those areas as continuation of arab civilisation,mesopotamian civilisation and so on..

IVC also covered some parts of modern day afghanistan etc ... do you think Afghan govt or people should now rise up and claim IVC whose main civilisational centers,cities are all within Pakistans boundaries?

Are these any mighty IVC cities like Mohenjodaro outside Pakistan?
In north india you hardly have a trading site of IVC... and thats about it..



> India is an advanced civilization at that time , you can verify historians .



Yeah right... Advanced civilisations whose people taxed low caste womans breats and raped low castes at will till the british arrived... and the opressive filth still continues in one form or another..



Indika said:


> you are correct but none your ilk wants to recognize it as a joint heritage. They are more prone to sub plant non south asian culture to pakistan and virtually deny the origins of India. They are simply hell bent on disassociating any thing relating to India and provide a religious slant to every thing.
> Its a thing found only in pakistan where as other civilizations like Egyptians proud about their past.



So we diss our heritage and yet we have IVC printed on our currency and part of our syllabus in schools? Ironic claims dear friend.

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## farhan_9909

i find it funny when indians claims to be related to IVC

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> I don't care what they associate themselves with.
> 
> *We Pakistanis are the true inheritors of IVC.*



If you claim that your ancestors were the people of IVC, then you automatically mean you Pakistanis were not the Ghaznavis and Ghoris and Baburs, but the locals who were conquered by the invading forces, were murdered in Hindukush, and got ruled for 500 years........later you made those invaders your heroes, named your missiles after them, started taking pride in the murder of your own ancestors by the invaders in Hindukush, and discarded your own heritage to adopt your conquerers' culture, etc.........sorry, but that's what it means....no?



Aether said:


> You dig well in that house and the new owner of the house will inherit what is left over the land, the legacy will be passed onto the geranations regardless of its present occupier.
> 
> IVC is similar to digging a well that you don't carry with you when you are leaving the house. Its part of our culture and heritage



You lost the logical line of thought in the last line, the well in your example are the ruins of IVC in Pakistan, it doesn't represent the culture and heritage, that goes with the family. And yes, artifacts are the furnitures, some were taken, some were left behind for the new occupant, that's normal.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Does the new owner ask for all the water drawn previously by the old owners to be returned also? Or does his right is only on the water to be drawn henceforward from the well?



Another valid point. It's another thing that someday moderators of this forum will declare you a non-Pakistani.

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## VCheng

Rain Man said:


> Another valid point. It's another thing that someday moderators of this forum will declare you a non-Pakistani.



They've already done far worse, but no matter, the truth remains the truth. Let Pakistan pursue its claim formally and see what happens.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rain Man said:


> If you claim that your ancestors were the people of IVC, then you automatically mean you Pakistanis were not the Ghaznavis and Ghoris and Baburs, but the locals who were conquered by the invading forces, were murdered in Hindukush, and got ruled for 500 years........later you made those invaders your heroes, named your missiles after them, started taking pride in the murder of your own ancestors by the invaders in Hindukush, and discarded your own heritage to adopt your conquerers' culture, etc.........sorry, but that's what it means....no?[



Does your tiny bengali brain comprehend the fact that Pashtuns are the second largest ethnic group in Pak to whom all of those "invaders" you quoted belong?


> You lost the logical line of thought in the last line, the well in your example are the ruins of IVC in Pakistan, it doesn't represent the culture and heritage, that goes with the family. And yes, artifacts are the furnitures, some were taken, some were left behind for the new occupant, that's normal.


And it represents the culture of india? lmao... does india itself have 1 singular culture? bengali babu.. whose great great great great dad migrated from modern day Pak.

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## Srinivas

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Dude take a good look at yourself and me... you barely reach my shoulder... so stop throwing around childish insult like a punk *** ...
> 
> 
> Sure ... but not mass migration.
> 
> 
> 
> Civilisations exchanged ideas with civilisations not jungle dwelling aboriginals...
> 
> Indus exchanged ideas and traded with contemporary civilisations ... but i doubt they all left to south india and ironically didnt create any civilisation there? thats stupidity at work.
> 
> Arabs travellers and merchants also contructed trading posts etc all over the region but you can hardly call those areas as continuation of arab civilisation,mesopotamian civilisation and so on..
> 
> IVC also covered some parts of modern day afghanistan etc ... do you think Afghan govt or people should now rise up and claim IVC whose main civilisational centers,cities are all within Pakistans boundaries?
> 
> Are these any mighty IVC cities like Mohenjodaro outside Pakistan?
> In north india you hardly have a trading site of IVC... and thats about it..
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah right... Advanced civilisations whose people taxed low caste womans breats and raped low castes at will till the british arrived... and the opressive filth still continues in one form or another..
> 
> 
> 
> So we diss our heritage and yet we have IVC printed on our currency and part of our syllabus in schools? Ironic claims dear friend.




Logic and Pakistanis do not go well !

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## Styx

why do they want jahallat era artifacts depicting nudity ?


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## Sine Nomine

Śakra said:


> I've never seen a muslim Punjabi celebrate Visakhi.


Kiddo,then I think you need to leave your PC and visit Pakistan in February when we celebrate Basant and in April when we celebrate Visakhi.
Speaking of Holi and Diwali they are your religious festivals they have nothing to do with civilization.



Rain Man said:


> Hindu ancestry or IVC is highly questionable.


Hold your Horses Dada,we practiced Buddhism for most part of our stay in IVC,untill Islam came.

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## Kabira

I hope Pakistan threaten India with nukes unless they give them back. Chor hai sab ke sab bc.


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## Sine Nomine

Rain Man said:


> started taking pride in the murder of your own ancestors


But our ancestors from Amu Draya to Bias River converted themselves into Islam.They were clever and lazy,they thought it's better to worship one powerful Lord then worshipping many.It's better to set course to destination where humans are not separated on bases of color and profession.

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## Athen

I hope it does..!! Nukes!!


save_ghenda said:


> I hope Pakistan threaten India with nukes unless they give them back. Chor hai sab ke sab bc.

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## Kabira

Soulspeek said:


> You are a racist man. Let me hand it to you. Not all of Pakistan is tall and fair. This physical attribute is the result of centuries of invasion, rape and plunder by people of West and Central Asia. You are not original Pakistanis. You are the result of their 'activities' in Pakistan.
> 
> This lowly thinking of yours is no better than those of some high caste Brahmins of India. You gave the same 'tall & fair' shit to East Pakistanis and they handed your arse back to you. Now they are proud Bangladeshis.



What made you think original Pakistani was austroloid aborginal? Do you know why India is not releasing genetic results of Harappa skeletons?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Srinivas said:


> Logic and Pakistanis do not go well !



Breast tax is a good example of indian logic at work.

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## Athen

قناص said:


> Kiddo,then I think you need to leave your PC and visit Pakistan in February when we celebrate Basant and in April when we celebrate Visakhi.
> Speaking of Holi and Diwali they are your religious festivals they have nothing to do with civilization.
> 
> 
> Hold your Horses Dada,we practiced Buddhism for most part of our stay in IVC,untill Islam came.


Great now ivc became Buddhist... Hey dummy.. Budda was born in around 400BCE and IVC was almost finished by 1700BCE (with your knowledge you might say 1700bce was after the 400bce but it is actually counted in reverse) I pity your education bro!!

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## Mustang06

manojb said:


> Pakistan will go UN


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## Indo-Pak

coffee_cup said:


> Yes, we want it back!
> 
> We are proud inheritors of thousands of years old Indus Valley / Ghandara civilizations.
> 
> *No matter how much the fake country called "India" (which was created by British in 1947* after combining and forcing several independent states into one) and her Mumbaikas residents want to lay claim on IVC, Inca, Egyptian civilizations, they have absolutely nothing to do with these civilizations.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> That is why we should create an awareness in our country about our great thousands years old civilization.



*Before Jesus was born, before Brits was a country, before any one knew Islam.. British didn't made us.*

en.wikipedia org wiki Megasthenes

*Indika* (Greek: Ἰνδικά; Latin: Indica) is an account of Mauryan India by Megasthenes. The original book is now lost, but its fragments have survived in later Greek and Latin works. The earliest of these works are those by Diodorus Siculus, Strabo (Geographica), Pliny, and Arrian (*Indica*)

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## dray

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Does your tiny bengali brain comprehend the fact that Pashtuns are the second largest ethnic group in Pak to whom all of those "invaders" you quoted belong?



Then the Pashtuns are certainly not the people of IVC, they can't invade their own land, can they? 

BTW, Mughals were Pashtuns? 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And it represents the culture of india? lmao... does india itself have 1 singular culture? bengali babu.. whose great great great great dad migrated from modern day Pak.



Oh yes, barring some expected regional differences, we share the same spiritual philosophies that even IVC people used to share.



قناص said:


> Hold your Horses Dada,we practiced Buddhism for most part of our stay in IVC,untill Islam came.



Buddhism itself is an offshoot of Hinduism and shares the same dharmik philosophies. Besides, Buddhism came much later after the desertion of IVC. In fact, idols of Hindu gods were unearthed from IVC.

See, I have no problem to share the legacy of all of ancient Indian civilization including IVC with Pakistanis, but first Pakistanis have to take a stand on who they are primarily. They cannot be the 500 years (or 1000 years, as Pakistanis claim) of rulers of Hindus, 'proud murderers' of Hindus in Hindukush, the heroic invaders and conquerors, etc. AND the people of IVC at the same time. But can Pakistanis accept that largely they were not the conquerors but the conquered who later made heroes out of their conquerors? 



قناص said:


> But our ancestors from Amu Draya to Bias River converted themselves into Islam.They were clever and lazy,they thought it's better to worship one powerful Lord then worshipping many.It's better to set course to destination where humans are not separated on bases of color and profession.



But isn't taking pride in the genocide of their own ancestors, as we see in case of Hindukush, is simply deplorable?

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## Sugarcane

That's good - Get everything related to Harrapa, Mohenjodaro, Taxila back and also ask bharat to stop using word India to associate themselves to Indus and Indus Valley.



Śakra said:


> The point still stands, if pakistanis are so concerned about customs and culture of their supposed ancestors, why don't you celebrate their celebrations?



Satti and other things like that was culture of your ancestors, why you are not doing that now?

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## Indo-Pak

LoveIcon said:


> That's good - Get everything related to Harrapa, Mohenjodaro, Taxila back and also ask bharat to stop using word India to associate themselves to Indus and Indus Valley.
> 
> 
> 
> *Satti and other things like that was culture of your ancestors, why you are not doing that now?*




Whats your opinion? why are Hindu not doing that now??


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## Soumitra

LoveIcon said:


> Satti and other things like that was culture of your ancestors, why you are not doing that now?


Because we can change an evolve. We do not believe in an unmutable book of laws which cant be questioned, reinterpretated, modernised for 1400 years to reflect with the modern times

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## wiseone2

Arbiter said:


> These artifacts represents the history of the land of Indus, which is modern Pakistan. People of Indus through out the history have had different culture, language and religion, and all of that is part of the history of this land. Just because modern day Indus have different language and religion doesn't make it's history alienated to the land. These artifacts belong to the land where they originated from, which is.modern day Pakistan.


it has to be considered on a case by case basis


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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> Then the Pashtuns are certainly not the people of IVC, they can't invade their own land, can they?
> 
> BTW, Mughals were Pashtuns?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, barring some expected regional differences, we share the same spiritual philosophies that even IVC people used to share.
> 
> 
> 
> Buddhism itself is an offshoot of Hinduism and shares the same dharmik philosophies. Besides, Buddhism came much later after the desertion of IVC. In fact, idols of Hindu gods were unearthed from IVC.
> 
> See, I have no problem to share the legacy of all of ancient Indian civilization including IVC with Pakistanis, but first Pakistanis have to take a stand on who they are primarily. They cannot be the 500 years (or 1000 years, as Pakistanis claim) of rulers of Hindus, 'proud murderers' of Hindus in Hindukush, the heroic invaders and conquerors, etc. AND the people of IVC at the same time. But can Pakistanis accept that largely they were not the conquerors but the conquered who later made heroes out of their conquerors?
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't taking pride in the genocide of their own ancestors, as we see in case of Hindukush, is simply deplorable?



Bengali Babu, do you know anything about the history of our region apart from some false random rants taught in your schools? Man, this school syllabus in India must be scrutanized by the world - falsehoods, distortion of history and clear influence of jingoistic media.

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## Soulspeek

Just for a moment, have a close look at the facial features of that dancing statue found in MohenJoDaro. She has more of a Aboriginal/Dravidian looks than fair and blue eyed Adonis lookalike Pakistanis. 



save_ghenda said:


> What made you think original Pakistani was austroloid aborginal? Do you know why India is not releasing genetic results of Harappa skeletons?


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## NALANDA

coffee_cup said:


> Bengali Babu, do you know anything about the history of our region apart from some false random rants taught in your schools?



What I have learnt on this forum, you guys are taught " something like history" . Please try to understand that you are making an *** of your self by contesting on knowledge of history ?


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## coffee_cup

NALANDA said:


> What I have learnt on this forum, you guys are taught " something like history" . Please try to understand that you are making an *** of your self by contesting on knowledge of history ?



Why don't you tell us something about yourself? Let me guess, someone from Pune a typical Modi/Swami fanboy who thinks he cn lay claim to anything, even to the invention of Airplanes?



Soulspeek said:


> Just for a moment, have a close look at the facial features of that dancing statue found in MohenJoDaro. She has more of a Aboriginal/Dravidian looks than fair and blue eyed Adonis lookalike Pakistanis.



What an absured argument! 

Going by your logic monkeys can lay claims to some monkey-shaped statues that are discovered??

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## manlion

Mentee said:


> I've read somewhere that there exist Hindus in south India, I think Tamils who hold ravana , the arch enemy of lord Ram in high esteem and divali is celebrated coz ravana was killed by Lord Ram, right! So this might be the reason for south Indians for not adopting this north Indian festival?



deepavali is celebrated by Tamils to mourn the death of Tamil hero king by the invader Aryan Rama - who out of envy destroyed the Tamil civilisation in Lanka.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> They've already done far worse, but no matter, the truth remains the truth. Let Pakistan pursue its claim formally and see what happens.



Hmm elaborate


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## Sugarcane

Soumitra said:


> Because we can change an evolve. We do not believe in an unmutable book of laws which cant be questioned, reinterpretated, modernised for 1400 years to reflect with the modern times



We have also evolved since times of Harrapa, Mohenjodoro and Taxila.

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## ali_raza

give back our things


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## Mentee

coffee_cup said:


> Bengali Babu, do you know anything about the history of our region apart from some false random rants taught in your schools? Man, this school syllabus in India must be scrutanized by the world - falsehoods, distortion of history and clear influence of jingoistic media.


Do you know that in majority of Indian states kids are taught in school that Punjabi freedom fighter Bhagat Singh and many other non Hindus were terrorist! It's part of the syllabus there------

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## coffee_cup

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Hmm elaborate



Don't expect any elaborations here, man.

The dude is known for her hatred for Pakistan and one liner sadistic comments to inflame things.

Perhaps the only pleasure few people get in real miserable lives. How unfortunate! I really feel pity for such people!

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## TopCat

As a moderator, all the artifacts should be handed over to BD before the decision be made who owns what.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Sinopakfriend said:


> @Kaptaan @PaklovesTurkiye @PAKISTANFOREVER @Pakistan First friends...this belongs to you! Are you going to let your heritage stolen?
> 
> BTW this is just half timeframe of your known history...
> 
> Dont let your history and heritage be robbed in broad day light...



Pakistani government has taken tremendous step...I fully support them, every Pakistani will...*We demand that statue back !!!
*
Hope fully, we will succeed in getting it back....In Sha Allah (God Willing)

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## Max

coffee_cup said:


> , it makes a mockery out of Indians.



There is no India without Indus, call them gangalander or bharti..

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

ito said:


> India is the rightful owner of all the artifacts found before 1947 on the subcontinent.


no sir. anything found on the area now under pakistan control is pakistan's property.

in the old time sindh i.e. current pakistan and hindh current india were different regions.
in hadiths the sindh and hindh have been shown as different countries.


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## ito

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> no sir. anything found on the area now under pakistan control is pakistan's property.
> 
> in the old time sindh i.e. current pakistan and hindh current india were different regions.
> in hadiths the sindh and hindh have been shown as different countries.



Hinduism itself was found in areas that is now called Pakistan...

International laws are clear...you can always refer them...Anything that is found before 1947 belongs to India.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rain Man said:


> Then the Pashtuns are certainly not the people of IVC, they can't invade their own land, can they?



So why did you mention Pashtun kings in the first place ? You too stupid ..?
As for Pashtuns not being people of IVC.. Than how come IVC spreads even to parts of southern afghanistan and cover all Pashtun areas? even FATA?



> BTW, Mughals were Pashtuns?




No.. But Mughals were allied with Panjabi Chiefs and zamindars and later they allied with Pashtuns aswell..



> Oh yes, barring some expected regional differences, we share the same spiritual philosophies that even IVC people used to share.



lol and what are those philosophies.?



> Buddhism itself is an offshoot of Hinduism and shares the same dharmik philosophies. Besides, Buddhism came much later after the desertion of IVC. In fact, idols of Hindu gods were unearthed from IVC.



Buddhists were slaughtered and prosecuted by Hindus and none other ..

And "Infact" the religion of IVC isn't known yet .. Just because of figurines of a horned dude you can't claim them to be Hindu ..
They also buried their dead.
They weren't veggies and much more..

And oh they didn't give a damn about cows either .. They used it just as an animal not a holy cow.



> See, I have no problem to share the legacy of all of ancient Indian civilization including IVC with Pakistanis, but first Pakistanis have to take a stand on who they are primarily. They cannot be the 500 years (or 1000 years, as Pakistanis claim) of rulers of Hindus, 'proud murderers' of Hindus in Hindukush, the heroic invaders and conquerors, etc. AND the people of IVC at the same time. But can Pakistanis accept that largely they were not the conquerors but the conquered who later made heroes out of their conquerors?



Bengalis must be one the most retarded people on the planet .... Your post doesn't make sense .. You know why? Because it's shyt written by some monkey harbouring hatred and a really tiny brain even smaller than monkeys..



> But isn't taking pride in the genocide of their own ancestors, as we see in case of Hindukush, is simply deplorable?



Funny .. Actually the Pashtuns,Baloch etc ruled you clown from Delhi and even Bengal ... While Panjab was a Muslim state and for the most part allied with Pashtun or part of the same country...

For example when Prithvi fought and lost against ghori .. The rajhistani and Prithvi himself was taken as a slave...

You tiny Bengalis were again ruled by invaders and I'm damn sure taken on a joy ride over the Hindukush or to till land or join harems in places like Dir or Zhob.

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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Hmm elaborate



How does Pakistan plan to establish legal ownership of said artifact?


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## Sine Nomine

Athen said:


> Great now ivc became Buddhist... Hey dummy.. Budda was born in around 400BCE and IVC was almost finished by 1700BCE (with your knowledge you might say 1700bce was after the 400bce but it is actually counted in reverse) I pity your education bro!!


IVC still continues..



Rain Man said:


> But isn't taking pride in the genocide of their own ancestors, as we see in case of Hindukush, is simply deplorable?


Dada,Hindukush has nothing to do with killing of hindus and above all hindu,sindhu and khorsan are geographical terms.Himdukush that word for me is story of all those brave inhabitants of east bank of river sindh,who tried to defeat those mighty mountain ranges and sometimes crossed into CA and most of times died.That's why it's name is hindukush.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So why did you mention Pashtun kings in the first place ? You too stupid ..?


Our bengali babu has forgotten that most of IVC areas are 50% concentrated on those areas which are Pashtuns.Bamiyan by no chance has got any Marhatas or Bengalis.

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## Braith

It will be safe in India....

Here in Pakistan, the corrupt Museum officials are involved in selling artifacts and historical coins to black market......also there was recent news that smuggled statues of Gandhara civilization from Swat and Peshawar were caught in Karachi. etc etc etc....

Moreover we have religious nutjobs who might attack Museums and destroy these statues , to earn the title of 'but-shikan'


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## dray

None of the Pakistanis here coming clean on whether they are the conquering invaders from some foreign land, or the conquered local people with ancestral connection to the people of IVC. 

I am open to both the stands, but Pakistanis should decide first.


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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Funny .. Actually the Pashtuns, Baloch etc ruled you clown from Delhi and even Bengal ... While Panjab was a Muslim state and for the most part allied with Pashtun or part of the same country...
> 
> You tiny Bengalis were again ruled by invaders and I'm damn sure taken on a joy ride over the Hindukush or to till land or join harems in places like Dir or Zhob.


Pashtuns did rule Delhi, but i have not have read about any Baloch sitting on Delhi throne. There were petty Baloch barons in 18th century in Hariyana but they were subordinates of Mughals and even remained proteges of a Pashtun Najib-ud-duala who was dictator of Delhi for 10 years. http://www.barmazid.com/2016/08/baloch-proteges-of-najib-khan-yousafzai_4.html

Moreover Punjab was not "allied" with Pashtun.......it was one of the province of Khilji, Lodi, Sur and Durrani empires...and on some occasions some Punjabi clans resisted Pashtun domination and rule over them. For example Ghakkars fought against Sher Shah and Islam Shah. And Khokars under Jasrath were rival to Bahlol Lodi , in which the latter emerged as victor. 

Moreover its very sinister of you to use word "tiny" for Bengalis and try to direct the resulting hate from them against Pashtuns by saying that Bengali women might have ended up in some harem of Zhob ( a Pashtun district) and Dir (a Pashtun district). Bengal under Sher Shah and Islam Shah, was happy and prosperous..........and Sultan Suleiman Karrani's reign was also great, Bengalis were happy under their rule.....Afghans/Pashtuns were not mean to indigenous Bengalis. This is evident from the fact Bengalis and Afghans jointly resisted Mughal rule in Bengal as late as 1614 AD.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Braith said:


> Pashtuns did rule Delhi, but i have not have read about any Baloch sitting on Delhi throne. There were petty Baloch barons in 18th century in Hariyana but they were subordinates of Mughals and even remained proteges of a Pashtun Najib-ud-duala who was dictator of Delhi for 10 years. http://www.barmazid.com/2016/08/baloch-proteges-of-najib-khan-yousafzai_4.html
> 
> Moreover Punjab was not "allied" with Pashtun.......it was one of the province of Khilji, Lodi, Sur and Durrani empires...and on some occasions some Punjabi clans resisted Pashtun domination and rule over them. For example Ghakkars fought against Sher Shah and Islam Shah. And Khokars under Jasrath were rival to Bahlol Lodi , in which the latter emerged as victor.
> 
> Moreover its very sinister of you to use word "tiny" for Bengalis and try to direct the resulting hate from them against Pashtuns by saying that Bengali women might have ended up in some harem of Zhob ( a Pashtun district) and Dir (a Pashtun district). Bengal under Sher Shah and Islam Shah, was happy and prosperous..........and Sultan Suleiman Karrani's reign was also great, Bengalis were happy under their rule.....Afghans/Pashtuns were not mean to indigenous Bengalis. This is evident from the fact Bengalis and Afghans jointly resisted Mughal rule in Bengal as late as 1614 AD.



"slow claps" ...

Now piss off... this thread is about IVC not 15th century...

And do try to read my posts you dimwit.

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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> "slow claps" ...
> 
> Now piss off... this thread is about IVC not 15th century...
> 
> And do try to read my posts you dimwit.


I have already posted my views on the topic........



Braith said:


> It will be safe in India....
> 
> Here in Pakistan, the corrupt Museum officials are involved in selling artifacts and historical coins to black market......also there was recent news that smuggled statues of Gandhara civilization from Swat and Peshawar were caught in Karachi. etc etc etc....
> 
> Moreover we have religious nutjobs who might attack Museums and destroy these statues , to earn the title of 'but-shikan'



P.S: Dont forget to read my signature


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Braith said:


> I have already posted my views on the topic........
> 
> 
> 
> P.S: Dont forget to read my signature



Do you seriously think i give a shyt about some turd whose not even loyal to his kin or the country? a pathological liar who would if needed even change his "waldiat" ? 

Now piss off and come back with another fake id.

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## Braith

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Do you seriously think i give a shyt about some turd whose not even loyal to his kin or the country? a pathological liar who would if needed even change his "waldiat" ?
> 
> Now piss off and come back with another fake id.


My motherland is Lakki Marwat, i am loyal to it.


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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

ito said:


> Hinduism itself was found in areas that is now called Pakistan...
> 
> International laws are clear...you can always refer them...Anything that is found before 1947 belongs to India.


it was found in the area now belonging to pakistan. it would be given to pakistan. law is clear. before 1947 it was british colony. there was no india or pakistan. before that it was hindustan. not any india or pakistan.


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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> None of the Pakistanis here coming clean on whether they are the conquering invaders from some foreign land, or the conquered local people with ancestral connection to the people of IVC.
> 
> I am open to both the stands, but Pakistanis should decide first.



Tell me what is the fake country called "India"?

What is it?

A collection of dozens of independent states, forced by British to form a new country. 
This is a mere space, nothing more. Just a question of time, till all those demanding independence get there.

Now tell me what is India?

Maharastra?

Gujrat?

Punjab (Khalistan)? And they don't want to be with you.

Junagardh? Hyedabad? Nagaland? 


WHAT IS INDIA?

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> WHAT IS INDIA?



One of the oldest civilizations of the world.

But who are Pakistanis? The Conquerers or The Conquered?


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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> One of the oldest civilizations of the world.
> 
> But who are Pakistanis? The Conquerers or The Conquered?



You did not answer my question.

WHAT IS INDIA?

Bengal?
Maharastra?
Kerala?
Hyderabad?
Junagardh?

What is it?

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> You did not answer my question.
> 
> WHAT IS INDIA?
> 
> Bengal?
> Maharastra?
> Kerala?
> Hyderabad?
> Junagardh?
> 
> What is it?



All of it and more, an ancient civilization.

My question ON THE TOPIC remained unanswered though.


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## Sine Nomine

Braith said:


> Moreover Punjab was not "allied" with Pashtun.......it was one of the province of Khilji, Lodi, Sur and Durrani empires...and on some occasions some Punjabi clans resisted Pashtun domination and rule over them.


Welcome back,Punjab were given lollipop of Muslim brotherhood nothing else,was used to get them on Emperor side.If strictly talking about ethnicity then same Punjabis sikh took Amritsar,Kasur,Lahore,Attock and Peshawar from Durranis.It's always have been use of religious slogans to keep people's remain under rule.

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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> All of it and more, an ancient civilization.
> 
> My question ON THE TOPIC remained unanswered though.



See people like you who falsely lay claims on heritage of others are a typical example of people with "inferiority complex". 

Pakistan is the cradle of one of the oldest civilizations in the world.

Unlike "India" (whatever does that mean), who is laying wild claims on everything. From Egyptian civilization to IVC to invention of airplanes, 

As I said, typical inferiority complex syndrom.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Braith said:


> My motherland is Lakki Marwat, i am loyal to it.



lol what a loser... That motherland must be on Mars right ? Turd.

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## dray

coffee_cup said:


> See people like you who falsely lay claims on heritage of others are a typical example of people with "inferiority complex".
> 
> Pakistan is the cradle of one of the oldest civilizations in the world.
> 
> Unlike "India" (whatever does that mean), who is laying wild claims on everything. From Egyptian civilization to IVC to invention of airplanes,
> 
> As I said, typical inferiority complex syndrom.



I can show you references of my country in thousand years old texts, rather you presumably know that already. Show me some texts, just hundred years old, that mention Pakistan.

On a serious note, you guys don't know where you actually belong, and try to ride on many boats due to this identity crisis....result of politically motivated twisting of your history for decades.


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## Braith

قناص said:


> Welcome back,Punjab were given lollipop of Muslim brotherhood nothing else,was used to get them on Emperor side.If strictly talking about ethnicity then same Punjabis sikh took Amritsar,Kasur,Lahore,Attock and Peshawar from Durranis.It's always have been use of religious slogans to keep people's remain under rule.


No Lollilop of Muslim brotherhood was given to Punjabis, Delhi Sultans were not dependent on them, they did not rely on them ........they (i.e some of their martial clans) were rather chastised by Turks and Afghan Sultans for being in collusion with their enemies. For example during the reigns of Mamluk Turk Sultans, Jats, Khokhars, Bhattis and others in Punjab were chastised for aiding Mongols according to Tarikh-i-Feroz Shahi. Shaikha Khokar sided with an invader Amir Timur against Tughlaq Sultan. Sur Sultans chastised Ghakkars for siding with Timurids/Mughals.

It was during the reign of later Mughals, in early 18th century , that Islam card was used by the Mughals in Punjab to do some thing about the rising of Sikhs, who were attacking Musalman of Punjab and their mosques. Emperor Bahadur Shah declared a Jihad , after Banda Singh's Sikhs devastated East Punjab, and came himself to Punjab to finish the turbulence. Sikhs operated as distinct nation, Punjabi Musalman was merely a "Musla" for them. Read about the battle between Punjabi Musalman of Jullandar and Sikhs in aerly 18th century,


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## coffee_cup

Rain Man said:


> I can show you references of my country in thousand years old texts, rather you presumably know that already.
> 
> .



What the....!!!!

A typical "RSS Madrassah" graduate!

I am sure you can, you can even show me that you have invented Airplane some 7000 years ago. Only problem with that is, it is complete BS.


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## Kabira

Soulspeek said:


> Just for a moment, have a close look at the facial features of that dancing statue found in MohenJoDaro. She has more of a Aboriginal/Dravidian looks than fair and blue eyed Adonis lookalike Pakistanis.



That dancing girl look like typical Pakistani like this king. Pakistanis are not blue eyed whites. They are some shades of brown colour from light brown to dark brown.

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## dray

Still no reply from anybody about whether Pakistanis primarily are:

1. The conquering invaders from foreign lands.

or 

2. The locals who were conquered by the invading forces, murdered, oppressed, converted, and got ruled for hundreds of years........later the locals made those invaders their heroes, named their missiles after them, started taking pride in the murder and oppression of their own ancestors in the hands of those invaders, and discarded their own heritage to adopt their conquerers' culture, etc...

Take your pick first, then we can talk about your IVC claims.

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## Zee-shaun

ito said:


> India is the rightful owner of all the artifacts found before 1947 on the subcontinent.



Based on what grounds?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rain Man said:


> Still no reply from anybody about whether Pakistanis primarily are:
> 
> 1. The conquering invaders from foreign lands.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. The locals who were conquered by the invading forces, murdered, oppressed, converted, and got ruled for hundreds of years........later the locals made those invaders their heroes, named their missiles after them, started taking pride in the murder and oppression of their own ancestors in the hands of those invaders, and discarded their own heritage to adopt their conquerers' culture, etc...
> 
> Take your pick first, then we can talk about your IVC claims.



Our land ... our artifacts... our history... whats up with bengali monkeys claiming our history?


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## dray

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Our land ... our artifacts... our history... whats up with bengali monkeys claiming our history?



Sure dear, it is your land now, whatever artifacts are still there are yours now, but what is your history; of conquering invaders or conquered locals? Only that I am asking....is it difficult to answer? But that question is the most important part of your claim on IVC.

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## ito

Useless effort and time...India will never give anything that it has in possession to Pakistan.


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## manlion

ashok321 said:


> *Culture wars: Pakistan to demand 4,500 old artefact back from India:*








the dancing pose is uncannily close to Bharata Natyam, the ancient dance form of Tamil land not Muslim inspired kathak or Odissi etc. Hence the statue should be in Chennai not Delhi, its for 'future' TN govt to decide if the figurine can be given to Pakistan out of good will due to Tamil - Pakistan's IVC Link.

evolution of IVC - Tamil script




Tamil Alphabet AH - Tamil Vattezhuthu AH - Indus Sign AH

IVC is a Tamil Dravidian civilisation connected to Sumerian culture

Sumerian seal,
Marduk killing Kingu, similar to the Tamil mythological story of *Murugan * killing *Sura padman. *In reality it is a calendar story, indicating month of *Karthigai* (Tamil Month). When moon attains _full moon stage_ and reaches near to _*Pleiades*_ constellation, that moon position indicates the month of _Karthigai_. Pleiades constellation is depicted in this seal by seven dots, where as *Orion *constellation is depicted as "Marduk".




https://sites.google.com/site/indus...otamian-influence-on-ivc/marduk-killing-kinku

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## halupridol

Rain Man said:


> One of the oldest civilizations of the world.
> 
> But who are Pakistanis? The Conquerers or The Conquered?

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## farhan_9909

So the statue is in Delhi?Even easy can take it as a War Booty


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## Sine Nomine

Braith said:


> Sikhs operated as distinct nation, Punjabi Musalman was merely a "Musla" for them.


The same virks,khokhars,jats,bhattis,sandhus etc are Muslims and Sikhs,many clans half of them became Muslims and half converted to sikhism,it was suppression of sikhs by Mughals that led eventually to there uprising.Punjabis by religion are of three types,Buddha's,Hindus,Muslims and sikhs I don't know how you Mr Marwat classify clans of Punjab in rather hypocritical way.



Braith said:


> No Lollilop of Muslim brotherhood was given to Punjabis, Delhi Sultans were not dependent on them, they did not rely on them ........they (i.e some of their martial clans) were rather chastised by Turks and Afghan Sultans for being in collusion with their enemies. For example during the reigns of Mamluk Turk Sultans, Jats, Khokhars, Bhattis and others in Punjab were chastised for aiding Mongols according to Tarikh-i-Feroz Shahi. Shaikha Khokar sided with an invader Amir Timur against Tughlaq Sultan. Sur Sultans chastised Ghakkars for siding with Timurids/Mughals.


Khokahrs as I know when were suppressed they did assassinated Ghor.After that what ever claim you make is not valid because when Sikhs were suppressed they took a military path in no time and contributed significantly in destruction of Mughal Rule.Religion has always been a tool to gather masses in here.Ever Durranis before panipat declared a holy war to get Rohilas on there side.It wasn't some martial super power which aided in rule of delhi sultans rather only religion was token.If all sultans of Delhi's were martial super races then they wouldn't have been gone and eventually defeated by Babur.

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## my2cents

hussain0216 said:


> We dont need to read any mumbo jumbo we just want any historical artefacts from our land to remain in and be displayed in our land



If you have selective preference for what you want to own and disown then that is distortion of your/our history. Either own it entirely or disown it entirely. Owning it does not mean that you forsake your Islamic tradition.

Pakistanis are damned if they accept IVC and are damned if they reject IVC. For Indians it is a troll fest.

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## wiseone2

farhan_9909 said:


> So the statue is in Delhi?Even easy can take it as a War Booty


you have not gotten close to a district headquarters in 3 wars



coffee_cup said:


> Tell me what is the fake country called "India"?
> 
> What is it?
> 
> A collection of dozens of independent states, forced by British to form a new country.
> This is a mere space, nothing more. Just a question of time, till all those demanding independence get there.
> 
> Now tell me what is India?
> 
> Maharastra?
> 
> Gujrat?
> 
> Punjab (Khalistan)? And they don't want to be with you.
> 
> Junagardh? Hyedabad? Nagaland?
> 
> 
> WHAT IS INDIA?


if India is artifical I do not know what to call Pakistan


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## hussain0216

my2cents said:


> If you have selective preference for what you want to own and disown then that is distortion of your/our history. Either own it entirely or disown it entirely. Owning it does not mean that you forsake your Islamic tradition.
> 
> Pakistanis are damned if they accept IVC and are damned if they reject IVC. For Indians it is a troll fest.



On the contrary we just want artefacts from our land to remain in our land and be shown in our museums and not be stolen by foreigners especially dark eastern foreigners who have nothing to do with our land 

Alot of the old culture is stupid and defunct 

Its like saying 10000 years ago a bunch of cavemen worshipped a idol made out of shit and we must now embrace this shit idol to own the culture 

No we dont, we just want to display the culture of our land in the past without it being taken by foreigners who have nothing to do with it


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## Kabira

manlion said:


> the dancing pose is uncannily close to Bharata Natyam, the ancient dance form of Tamil land not Muslim inspired kathak or Odissi etc. Hence the statue should be in Chennai not Delhi, its for 'future' TN govt to decide if the figurine can be given to Pakistan out of good will due to Tamil - Pakistan's IVC Link.
> 
> evolution of IVC - Tamil script
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tamil Alphabet AH - Tamil Vattezhuthu AH - Indus Sign AH
> 
> IVC is a Tamil Dravidian civilisation connected to Sumerian culture
> 
> Sumerian seal,
> Marduk killing Kingu, similar to the Tamil mythological story of *Murugan * killing *Sura padman. *In reality it is a calendar story, indicating month of *Karthigai* (Tamil Month). When moon attains _full moon stage_ and reaches near to _*Pleiades*_ constellation, that moon position indicates the month of _Karthigai_. Pleiades constellation is depicted in this seal by seven dots, where as *Orion *constellation is depicted as "Marduk".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/indus...otamian-influence-on-ivc/marduk-killing-kinku



We both can keep dancing girl for half a year because Pakistanis and tamils have ancient links.


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## Fireurimagination

But weren't Pakistani decedents of arabs? So, why do they want haram kafir artifacts?


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## hussain0216

Fireurimagination said:


> But weren't Pakistani decedents of arabs? So, why do they want haram kafir artifacts?



How are pakistanis decedents of arabs?

Some have some links, the same with Persia and Central Asia

But most people are from the land Pathans Baloch Sindhi Kashmiri, Punjabi and Northern Pakistani have lived around the indus fir thousands of years

The haram kaffir artefacts are from our land and should be displayed in our museums

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## Fireurimagination

hussain0216 said:


> How are pakistanis decedents of arabs?
> 
> Some have some links, the same with Persia and Central Asia
> 
> But most people are from the land Pathans Baloch Sindhi Kashmiri, Punjabi and Northern Pakistani have lived around the indus fir thousands of years
> 
> The haram kaffir artefacts are from our land and should be displayed in our museums



Well some Pakistanis do believe that they are descents of Arabs heck some Indians do too. The artifacts are 4500 years old then there was no Pathans, Baloch, Sindhi or Kashmiri there was only Santan Dharma, neither the land was yours nor the culture. Do you guys really want to claim kafir past, first decide that, then learn to own up/respect/understand the same, then ask for these artifacts. The bamiyan Buddha was destroyed by Islamists and you have plenty of them in Pakistan


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## Fireurimagination

hussain0216 said:


> Some do, most don't though
> 
> The lineage of our land is ancient OUR PEOPLE have always been different and distinct from the eastern people who lived in what is today India
> 
> There was no Santa Danda in our land
> 
> 
> We dont have to respect anything we just want the artefacts and history from our land to remain in our land and not be co-opted by dark foreigners who have nothing to do with our land or people



That's the thing, you guys know a zilch about your own history and history of your own land, you guys can't even make up your mind that do you want to embrace your past or want to run away from it. So, what will you do with these artifacts, most of whom will be kafir Deity idols which are totally haram I believe?


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## Pakistani E

Fireurimagination said:


> That's the thing, you guys know a zilch about your own history and history of your own land, you guys can't even make up your mind that do you want to embrace your past or want to run away from it. So, what will you do with these artifacts, most of whom will be kafir Deity idols which are totally haram I believe?



These artifacts belong to Pakistanis, just as the ancient Greek history belongs to Greeks, Persians to modern day Iran etc.

Why do "Hindustanis" try to claim the history of our land just as same way the black supremacists try to claim other people's history?

The only "Hindustanis" who can claim the IVC are the Punjabis and surrounding north-western people. Not some bengali babu sitting in Calcutta or some nerd sitting in Chennai. Trying to claim IVC on the basis of religion, even if it is proven that the IVC followed "Hinduism", is same as Pakistanis or Indonesians trying to claim Moorish Spain as part of their heritage. Laughable, in both cases.

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## iPhone 7

Pakistani Exile said:


> These artifacts belong to Pakistanis, just as the ancient Greek history belongs to Greeks, Persians to modern day Iran etc.
> 
> Why do "Hindustanis" try to claim the history of our land just as same way the black supremacists try to claim other people's history?
> 
> The only "Hindustanis" who can claim the IVC are the Punjabis and surrounding north-western people. Not some bengali babu sitting in Calcutta or some nerd sitting in Chennai. Trying to claim IVC on the basis of religion, even if it is proven that the IVC followed "Hinduism", is same as Pakistanis or Indonesians trying to claim Moorish Spain as part of their heritage. Laughable, in both cases.


we have more claim on ivc than pak .
There are more ivc sites in india than in pakistan . IVC sites have been found upto northern maharashtra and western uttar pradesh . Major indian sites are in gujarat and rajasthan ; not in punjab .Actually ivc is a misnomer , its actually indus-saraswati civilization.keep sulking


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## Soumitra

Pakistani Exile said:


> The only "Hindustanis" who can claim the IVC are the Punjabis and surrounding north-western people. Not some bengali babu sitting in Calcutta or some nerd sitting in Chennai.


There is no difference between a punjabi, gujrati, bengali or tamilian. All are Indians

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## Pakistani E

Soumitra said:


> There is no difference between a punjabi, gujrati, bengali or tamilian. All are Indians



Sure, if that helps you sleep better at night.



iPhone 7 said:


> we have more claim on ivc than pak .
> There are more ivc sites in india than in pakistan . IVC sites have been found upto northern maharashtra and western uttar pradesh . Major indian sites are in gujarat and rajasthan ; not in punjab .Actually ivc is a misnomer , its actually indus-saraswati civilization.keep sulking



As I said in my original post, I don't personally have a problem with North Western Indians claiming IVC as a lot of them are from the same land. As for rest, you can believe what you want. I am not sulking, I am quite happy with who I am and where I come from, hence don't rush to claim other people's history to feel better about myself.

The people of North Western India who are also descendants of IVC should join the second manifestation of the IVC, that is Pakistan, so we can rebuild our glorious nation.

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## Braith

قناص said:


> Ever Durranis before panipat declared a holy war to get Rohilas on there side.


Rohillas were Pashtuns/Afghans, and they , along with the Bangashs, felt themselves duty-bound to obey an Afghan king from their native lands and betray Mughals to whom they were owing nominal allegiance. Shuja-ud-Daula, a Shia and non-Pashtun, was an exception but he joined the camp not on appeal of Islamic brotherhood but because he was a close friend of Najib-ud-Daula and because he feared the rise of Marathas.

Even in Punjab, most of the local allies of Abdali were descendants of Afghans and betrayed the Mughal cause because they thought that obeying the king of their own race takes precedence. These were Kheshgi Afghans of Kasur, Sarwani Afghans of Malerkotla and Sadduzai Afghans of Multan.

May be support for present-day Khalistan is on your mind like all other defence.pk hardcore nationalists, but i am talking history and history says that Sikhs had derogatory term of 'Musla' for Punjabi Musalman. Sikhs did not distinguish between Mughals and Punjabi Musalman, they were all "Musla" for them.

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## Soumitra

hussain0216 said:


> I just stated a fact most indians are ugly skinny and dark
> 
> Why should the history of our land be coopted by these foreign monkeys from the east


Reported for inappropirate language

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## wiseone2

Pakistani Exile said:


> Sure, if that helps you sleep better at night.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said in my original post, I don't personally have a problem with North Western Indians claiming IVC as a lot of them are from the same land. As for rest, you can believe what you want. I am not sulking, I am quite happy with who I am and where I come from, hence don't rush to claim other people's history to feel better about myself.
> 
> The people of North Western India who are also descendants of IVC should join the second manifestation of the IVC, that is Pakistan, so we can rebuild our glorious nation.



IVC as in Mohenjadaro and Harrapan civilization is an extinct one. No one knows what happened to it. 
To say that IVC descendants are in Pakistan not in India is ridiculous



Soumitra said:


> There is no difference between a punjabi, gujrati, bengali or tamilian. All are Indians


there are differences at a certain level. it depends upon the context


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## A.P. Richelieu

Spring Onion said:


> war? why war. It is standard procedure to ask for such historical belongings



Since the creation of both India and Pakistan involved ethnic cleansing of the opponents,
there are a large number of ancestors to Indus valley population living in India 
which have an identical claim to their heritage.


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## Pakistani E

wiseone2 said:


> IVC as in Mohenjadaro and Harrapan civilization is an extinct one. No one knows what happened to it.
> To say that IVC descendants are in Pakistan not in India is ridiculous



In almost all "disappearance" of cultural entities, there always remains a remnant population which is absorbed by invading/migrating populace. To say that the people of the Indus Valley disappeared in to thin air is truly ridiculous.

You should re-read what I have said and what you have said above. I have nowhere claimed that some "Indians" do not have claims to the IVC. On the contrary, I am probably one of the few Pakistanis who believe that IVC is the common shared heritage of the majority of Pakistanis and a large number of North Indians. 

Your last sentence is the mother of contradictions where you attempt to discard the suggestion that Pakistanis could be descendants while at the same time saying it isn't ridiculous to suggest that same could be true for "Indians". Lol What?


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## hussain0216

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Since the creation of both India and Pakistan involved ethnic cleansing of the opponents,
> there are a large number of ancestors to Indus valley population living in India
> which have an identical claim to their heritage.



On the contrary most live in modern day Pakistan


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## wiseone2

Pakistani Exile said:


> In almost all "disappearance" of cultural entities, there always remains a remnant population which is absorbed by invading/migrating populace. To say that the people of the Indus Valley disappeared in to thin air is truly ridiculous.
> 
> You should re-read what I have said and what you have said above. I have nowhere claimed that some "Indians" do not have claims to the IVC. On the contrary, I am probably one of the few Pakistanis who believe that IVC is the common shared heritage of the majority of Pakistanis and a large number of North Indians.
> 
> Your last sentence is the mother of contradictions where you attempt to discard the suggestion that Pakistanis could be descendants while at the same time saying it isn't ridiculous to suggest that same could be true for "Indians". Lol What?



let me rephrase it this way:
other than geography there is nothing unique about pakistan or pakistanis that would allow you to lay claim to IVC
it is shared relic of the past

the cynic in me says pakistanis are clinging to IVC because it is the least documented of all the groups that have inhabited Pakistan. any group that is more modern would be too "Hindu" for the likes of some pakistanis



hussain0216 said:


> On the contrary most live in modern day Pakistan



we have no idea who lived in IVC


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## A.P. Richelieu

hussain0216 said:


> On the contrary most live in modern day Pakistan


The normal procedure during ethnic cleansing is that minorities leave.
Just pointing out that the issue has complexities, so the claim is not straight-forward.


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## Sine Nomine

Braith said:


> Rohillas were Pashtuns/Afghans, and they , along with the Bangashs, felt themselves duty-bound to obey an Afghan king from their native lands and betray Mughals to whom they were owing nominal allegiance.


I don't think so,in battle of Panipat Rohillas and other Muslims joined hands with Durrani due to his superior Afghan race but rather due to religion.
And Afghan bond proved pure bullshit when sikhs attacked Peshawar and took it and later Afghans sold that to Brits.


Braith said:


> Even in Punjab, most of the local allies of Abdali were descendants of Afghans and betrayed the Mughal cause because they thought that obeying the king of their own race takes precedence. These were Kheshgi Afghans of Kasur, Sarwani Afghans of Malerkotla and Sadduzai Afghans of Multan.


When in Punjab,you are Punjabi,do you know there are Durranis in Kasur and sialkot.
Afghans my friend were bound to one thing and that is interest other is pure bullshit.


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## Manidabest

it was found in Sindh so it belongs to Sindh wwhich is a province of Pakistan ... and it should be given back to Sindh simple India has many dancing girls ...Aishwariya rai, Priyanka Chopra, madhuri dixit, sri devi, hema malini and so on we had only one and we need her back


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## unbiasedopinion

ashok321 said:


> *Culture wars: Pakistan to demand 4,500 old artefact back from India:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, Pakistan is going on the offensive on the cultural front, with plans to "get back from India" a bronze Mohenjodaro statuette called 'Dancing Girl', a 4500-year-old artefact of which British archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler said, "There's nothing like her, I think, in the world."
> 
> The 10.5 centimetre high statuette, dating around 2500 BC, was discovered in 1926 from the ancient city Mohenjodaro of the Indus Valley Civilisation in Sindh, by British archaeologist Ernest Mackay. It's housed in New Delhi's National Museum, Pakistani media reported.
> 
> Syed Jamal Shah, the director general of Pakistan National Council of the Arts, is quoted by the Daily Times as saying the statue will be demanded under UNESCO conventions. He said that this is the first time that a request will be made about this to the Indian government and that "the purpose of seeking the return of 'Dancing Girl' "was to protect the heritage".


Why only this artefact..You are free to take away all the trouble maker miscreants in india who favor pakistan. Take them tooo....


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## Braith

Soumitra said:


> There is no difference between a punjabi, gujrati, bengali or tamilian. All are Indians


Its true, word Hindu is derived from Sindhu, and Indian is derived from Indus.................

In our areas (Lakki Marwat, Bannu), Seraiki speakers (who are our neighbors) are still called Hindkis and their language is called Hindko, even though the proper word is Seraiki. There is also a Punjabi dialect spoken in Peshawar and Hazara which is called Hindko............i.e they are people of Hind for us. Khushal Khattak in his Baiz use word "Hindki" for people of Awans of Khushab (Punjab)........In medieval period, Afghans/Pashtuns used term of Hindki for all Punjabis and Multanis+Sindhis, though nowadays it has been restricted to a particular dialect of Punjabi by academicians.

Punjabis and Sindhis are "Hindis" of Arab chronicles.

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## Tergon18

Pakistani Exile said:


> Someone tell the mighty superior minded Indians that me changing my religion does not change my DNA.
> 
> Look Indians, this is my DNA break down according to dna.land. Did changing my religion change my DNA to "Arabic" or thousands of years of history of my ancestors?
> 
> View attachment 342223





Pakistani Exile said:


> Someone tell the mighty superior minded Indians that me changing my religion does not change my DNA.
> 
> Look Indians, this is my DNA break down according to dna.land. Did changing my religion change my DNA to "Arabic" or thousands of years of history of my ancestors?
> 
> View attachment 342223



Nice results man. Here are the results for an Indian (Bengali, second largest ethnicity in India). Scores no Indus Valley at all.





For comparison, here is another Pakistanis (Punjabi) results






Interestingly, DNA Land considers Indus Valley as Central Asia, and the component certainly has an affinity to it. Indus Valley is in light green below and, not surprisingly, is where the Indus Valley component peaks

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## Tergon18

Google's doodle for Pakistan's 70th Independence Day:

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## Pakistani E

Tergon18 said:


> Nice results man. Here are the results for an Indian (Bengali, second largest ethnicity in India). Scores no Indus Valley at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For comparison, here is another Pakistanis (Punjabi) results
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, DNA Land considers Indus Valley as Central Asia, and the component certainly has an affinity to it. Indus Valley is in light green below and, not surprisingly, is where the Indus Valley component peaks



Have you noticed how whenever a Pakistani posts their DNA results the Indians suddenly go quiet and do not respond to that poster at all? And nice results, where about is that Pakistani Punjabi from? ( If you have any idea.)

I don't really know how DNA land calculates though because my sibling's results are quite different from mine with quite noticeable discrepancies.



Braith said:


> Its true, word Hindu is derived from Sindhu, and Indian is derived from Indus.................
> 
> In our areas (Lakki Marwat, Bannu), Seraiki speakers (who are our neighbors) are still called Hindkis and their language is called Hindko, even though the proper word is Seraiki. There is also a Punjabi dialect spoken in Peshawar and Hazara which is called Hindko............i.e they are people of Hind for us. Khushal Khattak in his Baiz use word "Hindki" for people of Awans of Khushab (Punjab)........In medieval period, Afghans/Pashtuns used term of Hindki for all Punjabis and Multanis+Sindhis, though nowadays it has been restricted to a particular dialect of Punjabi by academicians.
> 
> Punjabis and Sindhis are "Hindis" of Arab chronicles.



Yeah, that proves we are the natives of this region thus true inheritors of IVC. Unlike what the Indians would have us believe when they attempt to claim all Pakistanis as Arabs etc.


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## takeiteasy

Soumitra said:


> There is no difference between a punjabi, gujrati, bengali or tamilian. All are Indians


The differences are real. We are part of Indian union as states. Unity in diversity - to safeguard from Barbaric people in the western side whom historically saw attacks. Otherwise, the states have nothing in common. Even the dead Golwalkar or RSS cannot bring that unity. India's future is secular, respecting and receptive of local cultures and traditions - that direction. There needs to be a shift of power needed from the Delhi durbar. Delhi, Punjab, Haryana, West UP controls India's central government. Shift the country's capital to a new planned city somewhere in the central India, accessible from all parts of India. Then see how things are going to be.


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## Tergon18

Pakistani Exile said:


> Have you noticed how whenever a Pakistani posts their DNA results the Indians suddenly go quiet and do not respond to that poster at all? And nice results, where about is that Pakistani Punjabi from? ( If you have any idea.)
> 
> I don't really know how DNA land calculates though because my sibling's results are quite different from mine with quite noticeable discrepancies.



Yeah, lol. I don't know exact place, it was in anthrogenica as HRP0402 (HarappaWorld) as 'Punjabi Jatt Muslim-Pakistani'. 

As for DNA land, yeah there could be some discrepancies, but its become really better after their 2016 update and free too and so its really popular now.
Btw, have you uploaded you data to Gedmatch, HarappaWorld Oracle, Eurogenes, Dodecad etc. calculators? They can be really good in determining autosomal admixture/ancestry.

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