# Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.



## Kinshuk

*So long time no Versus thread.*

But it's time for one as Pakistan will have F-16 block 52 with BVR capability, irrespective of nos compared to MKIs in India, What will be Air combat scenario between the two beasts. 

Block 52 would be having new electronics, better radar, AMRAAM capability against SU MKI.

So it begins. One on One. 

*No attacks on country please. It's only dedicated to F-16block 52 vs SU 30 MKI and please keep it limited to that only.:coffee*:

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Storm Force

SU30MKI radar is a PESA system versis F16/52 a traditional MSA APG68 RADAR although stil good. 

THE PESA scans over a wider width, at twice the speed, over a greater range. 

PESA is a half a generation in tech ahead of the APG68.

su30mki carries upto 12 aam versis F16 around 6 MISSLES

su30mki has a TVC engine meaning its AOA(ANGLE OF ATTACK) CAN BE EXTREMME.. 

su30mki has 2 engines so its range acceleration is superior. 

SU30MKI carries far more fuel so combat radius is twice that of the F16/52. 

F16/52 is an older plane by well over a decade 
_____________________________________________

SU30MKI RCS is massive big disadvantage 

F16/52 BVR missle AMRAAM considered the best in world.

F16/52 proven in combat SU30MKI never used in anger.

_____________________________________________

SU30MKI is a newer more poweful plane. only arrived in 2003 

Best flanker in the world. 

F16/52 a magnificent legacy USA fighter with awesome performance
globally.. 

MKI has the edge but not by much i think

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## ptldM3

Kinshuk said:


> *Air combat scenario between the two beasts.
> 
> Block 52 would be having new electronics, better radar, AMRAAM capability against SU MKI.
> 
> *


*

The SU-30 can track targets as far away as 350km, and bombers as far as 400km, how does the F-16's radar compair?*


----------



## Kinshuk

ptldM3 said:


> The SU-30 can track targets as far away as 350km, and bombers as far as 400km, how does the F-16's radar compair?



I don't know Sir that's why started the thread.


----------



## Storm Force

APG68 Mechanical scanned radar. 

Its tracking nos and speed of tracking is less than PESA BARS. 

I think it can track up to 150km but will take longer to pik up the signals than a PESA.


----------



## ptldM3

Kinshuk said:


> I don't know Sir that's why started the thread.



Well played sir...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sancho

Storm Force said:


> SU30MKI radar is a PESA system versis F16/52 a traditional MSA APG68 RADAR although stil good.
> 
> THE PESA scans over a wider width, at twice the speed, over a greater range.
> 
> PESA is a half a generation in tech ahead of the APG68.
> 
> su30mki carries upto 12 aam versis F16 around 6 MISSLES
> 
> su30mki has a TVC engine meaning its AOA(ANGLE OF ATTACK) CAN BE EXTREMME..
> 
> su30mki has 2 engines so its range acceleration is superior.
> 
> SU30MKI carries far more fuel so combat radius is twice that of the F16/52.
> 
> F16/52 is an older plane by well over a decade
> _____________________________________________
> 
> SU30MKI RCS is massive big disadvantage
> 
> F16/52 BVR missle AMRAAM considered the best in world.
> 
> F16/52 proven in combat SU30MKI never used in anger.
> 
> _____________________________________________
> 
> SU30MKI is a newer more poweful plane. only arrived in 2003
> 
> Best flanker in the world.
> 
> F16/52 a magnificent legacy USA fighter with awesome performance
> globally..
> 
> MKI has the edge but not by much i think


Of course most of the specs clearly speaks in favour of MKI, but I think it won't be as easy as it seems! 

The question is when will the MKI detect the F16 and when the F16 the MKI?
The Bars has more range, but mainly for bigger targets than an F16 (correct me if I'm wrong please, RCS around 1m²?), on contrary the F16 radar has less range, but might be able to detect the MKI at max range, because of the high RCS of the MKI.
Aim 120 vs R77 should be clear, but also interesting imo will be, Aim 9 + JHMCS vs supermanuverability + better EWS.

So even in BVR, as well as in WVR the F16s (not to forget the older once that will be upgraded to MLU level) will cause some headache to IAF and MKI.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Peshwa

Isnt our primary air-superiority fighter the Mig29? In all eventuality, wouldnt the MKI serve as an AWACS role to the MIG29 which would go head to head with an F-16 if ever the situation arose?

I find it hard to grasp if the IAF would pitch an asset like the MKI directly with an F-16...unless in a dire situation when we have platforms like the Bison and MIG-29 that can take on this role and are solely procured for this purpose....

From what I hear....The Bison is quite a beast.....Not to be written off just yet....

But Im assuming this is all hypothetical.....right?

Maybe a MuradK callibre personality can enlighten us.....

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## desimorty

I don't care about the radars. The R-77 vs AMRAAM is the the big what if. The Falcon can hold its own in BVR, or air to air. But the SU-30MKI bombs better and has a higher endurance. Lets say the Falcon has a even chance. The Flankers or IAF still outnumber PAF, easily, ontop of that the Falcons can only hold a defensive postion due to the increasing air shield of India. Longer range of SAMS means that India doesn't need to send aircraft to deal with aircraft. S-300 SAMs have a estimated range of 200 km. SAMS are also catching up. Ontop of that the range of indian missiles from ballistic to cruise are stocking up on the border. Cold START could just might as well be a realise of artillery to dystroy Pakistani defence assets.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Kinshuk

Sir,

What about the RAM coating to reduce the RCS of MKI. I feel so stupid of MKI having such a larger RCS signature.


----------



## Kinshuk

Though related to Block 52 vs MKI but as Sir Peshwa mentioned, what are the chances of Mig 29(whatever version India is using) against block 52?


----------



## Kompromat

Comparing a Multi role fighter with a heavy air superiority fighter jet simply just does not make any sense to me.

Anyway lets do it.

*Radar comparison *



As we know F-16c or Block 50/52+ comes with a V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities.

*F-16 Radar Features*

The AN/APG-68 radar is a long range up to *300 km* and a Pulse-doppler radar designed by Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) to replace AN/APG-66 radar in the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The AN/APG-68 radar system consists of the following line-replaceable units:
Antenna
Dual Mode Transmitter (DMT)
Modular Low-power radio frequency (MLPRF)
Programmable signal processor (PSP)

The AN/APG-68(V)9 radar is the latest development. Besides the increase in scan range compared to the previous version, it has a Synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability.

*Benefits*

30 percent increase in detection range.

Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference; 
Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode)

Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode.

Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode; 
Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons 
Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode; 
Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.

*Su-30mki radar*



The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40&#8211;50 km.

*F-16 Engine:*
One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

*Performance:*
Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range *2450 miles* with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) 
*
Dogfight capability.*

F-16 is meant is the most successful dog fighter ever created it has over a 100 kills without sustaining a single loss ( About 30 of them are from PAF )

This video speaks for itself that nothing matches the Viper in a dogfight specially when we take Block 52's Joint helmet mounted cuing system or JHMCS which is simply a look at shoot at capability to fire its infrared guided missiles so the Viper would not need TVC .

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/KWSN-
Men/339/

*Introduction video*






F-16 Block 52+ Cockpit.



VS

SU30 Mki cockpit.




*F16 B-52 A2A missiles *

Air-to-air missiles: 
2&#215; AIM-7 Sparrow
6&#215; AIM-9 Sidewinder 
6&#215; IRIS-T or
6&#215; AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+*miles!!!!*

*SU-30 A2A missiles*

Air to Air Missiles:
10 &#215; R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
10 &#215; Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 80 km
6 &#215; R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM *130 km There is a difference between Miles and Kms isn't it??*
6 &#215; R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
2 &#215; R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
2 &#215; R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
6 &#215; R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So my conclusion is that Tough SU-30 is a whole different class of fighter tough it is Twin engine , Dual cockpit and it can carry a hell load of weapons and has a greater range.

In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of 300kms and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D will shoot down an SU-30 way before.

But the issue is Pakistan has ordered a AIM-120C variant which has a range of only 105km so Pakistan must buy a D variant or it " could " be on our order already.

In a dogfight.

PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!

Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.

Regards:

Reactions: Like Like:
33


----------



## Kompromat

> outnumber PAF


Then you would be in a deep trouble 




> the Falcons can only hold a defensive postion due to the increasing air shield of India


Falcons are not for Invading India but for air defense only.



> Longer range of SAMS means that India doesn't need to send aircraft to deal with aircraft. S-300 SAMs have a estimated range of 200 km. SAMS are also catching up.



I am sure this one is going to hurt you a lot.

This one for your MKI , Migs , MMRCA yada yda.(Spada 2000)







And This one for your beloved Phalcon.

FT-2000 with Anti radiation Missiles and a range of 200km with the detection range of 350 km. ( I know that you know that we do not have them but it could be wrong who knows?)








> Ontop of that the range of indian missiles from ballistic to cruise are stocking up on the border.



And our missiles are sitting somewhere near Afghan border right?



> Cold START could just might as well be a realise of artillery to dystroy Pakistani defence assets.



Yes wet dreams of General Kapoor to take on Sinopak , tell him to stop dreaming.

Thanks

Reactions: Like Like:
17


----------



## gogbot

Well now that PAk finally has BVR missiles. They have finally leveled the playing field.

Now It comes down to

-the BVR missiles being used.
-The radar equipped on the planes.
-The EW suites

Only if one side has the better systems, for all three of those categories. Can they be said to have the advantage.


----------



## desimorty

Black blood, I think you're still not getting the picture or you just want to answer my statements with another condradicting one. You're statements don't come as a suprise nore do they actually fill my knowledge. 
While I do mantian that Pakistan will indeed purchase ballistic missiles and produce their own artillery units and ammunition. They still can not produce or purchase the vast numbers India can. There is a military gap between the two and both armies are aware of it.
India has more missiles, and will only build more, more than Pakistan.
India has more of everything and will only build more of everything, more than Pakistan.

The SAMs you've listed are SPADA, and FT-2000. I believe that the SPADA is short ranged and the FT-2000 has too many RUSSIAN components. The system itself recieved Russian assistance and this system Pakistan has not recieved and is prone to sanctions even if Pakistan WAS INTERESTED in it. 

On top of that the Indian military even doesn't purchase S-300 or relatives anymore because they are too unreliable and costly. The Indian military only purchased a few systems for protection of very important military installations. The rest is medium and short range sams that have a higher kill probability because of their inherent shorter range. Which helps guidence radars to be more accurate at these shorter distances. 
They future the Indian military will have longer range SAMS, up to 80 km and they are training their pilots to counter the threat of S-300 SAMS. 
So how will the Pakistani side counter Indian military SAMS....? they can't and they won't. They may just aim for the airfields but the sams are too nuemerious. PAF's only reliable aircraft capable of jamming older or newer SAMS is the F-16 and they have too few of them.
The Indian military can counter Pakistani SAMS with MBRL or Missiles. although the MBRL and artillery will be most likily. Anything else can be done with Jags, and Flankers. Both of which exceed in SEAD. 
IAF will also hunt and dystroy Pakistani armour clearing the way for for Indian infantry and armour. The T-90/72 doesn't need to be shot at. Leaving the T-90 to deal with bunkers and moving the line forward to Pakistan's rear artillery which with mines would have dystroyed alot of the Indian military tanks. 
Alkhalid and T-80 are tanks that are best suited to attack during night with a preamptive attack in mind. During the day, they are fair game for even the basic T-72 since both tanks share the same major flaw.

But this above is just the possibility. They actual action would involve alot more infantry after 2 weeks of war than this. The initial strike will always be airstrikes and artillery as seen in the previous wars. India and Pakistan, have always managed to fight a respectable war, which is largerly different to what the PLA have been use to.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Peshwa

Black blood said:


> *And This one for your beloved Phalcon.*
> 
> FT-2000 with Anti radiation Missiles and a range of 200km with the detection range of 350 km. ( I know that you know that we do not have them but it could be wrong who knows?)



Thats definitely a no go......

You dont expect us to take our AWACS into enemy territory to become target practice for the SAMs do you? Defeats the whole purpose of having depth into enemy territory dont you think?.......

Besides, I think Pakistan is yet to possess any long range SAMs in the category of S-300/400...not those that Im aware of anyways....

Offtopic but just wanted to point out.....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ptldM3

Black blood said:


> In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of *300kms* and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D *will shoot down an SU-30 way before*.



The SU-30MKI N011M radar has a rang of atleast 350km...are you sure the F-16 will shoot down the MKI "way before" 



Black blood said:


> But the issue is Pakistan has ordered a AIM-120C variant which has a range of only *105km* so Pakistan must buy a D variant or it " could " be on our order already.



R-77 has a range of *175*km and the Novator K-100 has a range of *400 km* both can pull 12 g's.

AIM-120C has got no IR seekers while R-77 has got both radar homing and IR seekers. Even with if Pakistan does aquire the AIM-120D it will still lack in range.





Black blood said:


> In a dogfight.
> 
> PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!



SU-30MKI pilots get about 300 flight hours a year, they're the elite. Moreover, they have trained against the best, American, British, ect.



Black blood said:


> Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.
> 
> Regards:



I don't know if the SU-30MKI comes with HMC but the SU-30mki has everything else you listed.

Reactions: Like Like:
20


----------



## Kompromat

jatt said:


> Black blood, I think you're still not getting the picture or you just want to answer my statements with another condradicting one. You're statements don't come as a suprise nore do they actually fill my knowledge.
> While I do mantian that Pakistan will indeed purchase ballistic missiles and produce their own artillery units and ammunition. They still can not produce or purchase the vast numbers India can. There is a military gap between the two and both armies are aware of it.
> India has more missiles, and will only build more, more than Pakistan.
> India has more of everything and will only build more of everything, more than Pakistan.
> 
> The SAMs you've listed are SPADA, and FT-2000. I believe that the SPADA is short ranged and the FT-2000 has too many RUSSIAN components. The system itself recieved Russian assistance and this system Pakistan has not recieved and is prone to sanctions even if Pakistan WAS INTERESTED in it.
> 
> On top of that the Indian military even doesn't purchase S-300 or relatives anymore because they are too unreliable and costly. The Indian military only purchased a few systems for protection of very important military installations. The rest is medium and short range sams that have a higher kill probability because of their inherent shorter range. Which helps guidence radars to be more accurate at these shorter distances.
> They future the Indian military will have longer range SAMS, up to 80 km and they are training their pilots to counter the threat of S-300 SAMS.
> So how will the Pakistani side counter Indian military SAMS....? they can't and they won't. They may just aim for the airfields but the sams are too nuemerious. PAF's only reliable aircraft capable of jamming older or newer SAMS is the F-16 and they have too few of them.
> The Indian military can counter Pakistani SAMS with MBRL or Missiles. although the MBRL and artillery will be most likily. Anything else can be done with Jags, and Flankers. Both of which exceed in SEAD.
> IAF will also hunt and dystroy Pakistani armour clearing the way for for Indian infantry and armour. The T-90/72 doesn't need to be shot at. Leaving the T-90 to deal with bunkers and moving the line forward to Pakistan's rear artillery which with mines would have dystroyed alot of the Indian military tanks.
> Alkhalid and T-80 are tanks that are best suited to attack during night with a preamptive attack in mind. During the day, they are fair game for even the basic T-72 since both tanks share the same major flaw.
> 
> But this above is just the possibility. They actual action would involve alot more infantry after 2 weeks of war than this. The initial strike will always be airstrikes and artillery as seen in the previous wars. India and Pakistan, have always managed to fight a respectable war, which is largerly different to what the PLA have been use to.




Your point are considerable but unfortunately off topic so i would suggest better open a new thread and i will give you my answer .

If i would do it here there is a huge chance that Moderators will bang us!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

> =Peshwa;635705]Thats definitely a no go......



Its good for me if you think this way.



> You dont expect us to take our AWACS into enemy territory to become target practice for the SAMs do you? Defeats the whole purpose of having depth into enemy territory dont you think?



Sir you did not get my point , or may be my opinion was not clear beg you a pardon.

Phalcon is believed to have a detection range of 400km , and to have all of that range where would they be operating? Its common sense that they would be operating with in 400 km from Pakistan Indian border inside Indian air space am i right?

Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?

Now look at this.

"There has been speculation that Pakistan acquired an HQ-9 variant called the FT-2000 some years ago as a short-term countermeasure against India&#8217;s airborne early warning and control aircraft, but no such missile has been seen in the country, and some sources say the FT-2000 was never actually produced"
Link:ASIAN DEFENCE: Pakistan May Seek Chinese Interceptor Missile Defense by 2012



> Besides, I think Pakistan is yet to possess any long range SAMs in the category of S-300/400...not those that Im aware of anyways....



I have answered it and i would not confirm or deny it.



> Offtopic but just wanted to point out.....



We also may buy AIM-120's Ground variant which is going to hurt a lot.

Short range SL-AMRAAM.







Regards:

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kompromat

ptldM3 said:


> The SU-30MKI N011M radar has a rang of atleast 350km...are you sure the F-16 will shoot down the MKI "way before"



Sir if you read my post again my humble opinion was about AWACS backed Vipers which brings it to the same range and with a lot more details which can be entered into F-16 Core mission processing computer and it would decide how to shoot the flanker down. 
(BTW MKI can be detected from 400kms through AWACS or ground stations due to its bulky size )




> R-77 has a range of *175*km and the Novator K-100 has a range of *400 km* both can pull 12 g's.



Indeed this is an MKI advantage but Let me tell you Russian missiles are not very trust able and F-16's will make sure they are safe , Thanks to their Advanced Electronic countermeasures. 



> *AIM-120C has got no IR seekers* while R-77 has got both radar homing and IR seekers. Even with if Pakistan does aquire the *AIM-120D it will still lack in range.*



** Correction my friend.*

AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in* inertial navigation system (INS)*. This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an *infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.*
*
AIM-120D's Range
*

AIM-120's range is 130 Miles = 209.17km
app ( real range is classified )




> SU-30MKI pilots get about 300 flight hours a year, they're the elite. Moreover, they have trained against the best, American, British, ect.



Yes we have a great knowledge of Indian pilots .
I know they train against the best and we tie down our pilots with their beds

Honestly the real flight hours of our " Each " pilot is classified but if even i would tell you what is an estimate , i am sure that would be enough for you to keep quite.

Opppssssssss!
Tail of a soviet SU-25 shot down by Sqn. Ldr. Athar on August 4, 1988.



PAF F-16 Pilot : Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bukhari who shot down Soviet SU-25.






I would not say the number But we are " thought" to be giving our Pilots more training hours than anyone else behind US.

Our Pilots have flown , F-16's , most of the Sukhoi's , Mig-29's , SU-27's , F-15's , F-16E , and possibly by now EF-2000 too and soon will be Rafale eveluated.
Dont ask me where !

BTW we have been training with Americans ( the best air force in the world ) for over a period of 40+ years.

PAF Viper at Anatolian Eagle.


PAF at Bright Star Eygpt.







Dude we practice against/with : USAF , TUAF , RSAF , UAEAF , PLAAF , RJAF and in Anatolian eagle , Indus viper , Saffaron bandit , High mark and more.



> I don't know if the SU-30MKI comes with HMC but the SU-30mki has everything else you listed.



JHMS&CS is a greater advantage for Block 52 which literally undermines the TVC of an MKI.

Regards:

Reactions: Like Like:
25


----------



## Kompromat

An Afghan/Soviet Su22 shot down by F-16 pilot (Late/Shaheed) Sqn. Ldr. Abdul Hameed Qadari.



A PAF F-16 Pilot Flt. Lt. Khalid Mehmood of No. 14 Squardon (PAF Minhas) shot down 3 Afghan/Soviet fighters (2 MiG-23s and 1 Su-22)



An Afghan Air force MIG-21 stored in Pakistan which was " Forced to Land " by PAF F-16 Pilots.



Regards:

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## RobbieS

@Blackblood

I am not qualified to answer on most of the other aspects discussed in this thread, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I did find the following a bit strange-

*Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?*

So you are saying the F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B have a range of 200km. Am I right? 
So if they are at the border and the Phalcon has to avoid it and assuming it keeps a distance of 20-30 km out of the missiles range. Wouldnt it still cover an area of 170-180 kms inside Pakistan? That would mean major cities and bases in Sialkot, Islamabad and Rawalpindi besides Lahore which is the closest. That's still not so bad, is it? In all probability by India's aims, the battle wouldn't probably extend beyond these cities.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kinshuk

Black blood said:


> Your point are considerable but unfortunately off topic so i would suggest better open a new thread and i will give you my answer .
> 
> If i would do it here there is a huge chance that Moderators will bang us!



*Thank You Sir for staying on the topic. This looks like more of a professionalism. 

And everyone is doing the same.

Sorry to interrupt, please continue. *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kinshuk

*But Please do not mention, India and Pakistan both, regarding the piolet superiority. *


----------



## antartica

No need to engage F16 with Su-30 .

JF17 is enough to take down Su-30 . 

Indians beware one JF17 is equal to 10 Su30's .

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Kinshuk

antartica said:


> No need to engage F16 with Su-30 .
> 
> JF17 is enough to take down Su-30 .
> 
> Indians beware one JF17 is equal to 10 Su30's .



*TROLL- IGNORED *, 


*No need to Reply anyone.*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## desimorty

The Su-30MKI have HMS. In close range the F-16 is formidable but only limited by its pilot. For the Falcon to come into close range with the Flanker, wouldn't be wise as the Flanker possess the thrust vectoring, and the HMS and an extra pair of eyes in the cockpit. For the Flanker, there would be no point in going in for WVR combat eithier. Its a much more capable machine that can be used in other areas and to risk itsself for a lone F-16 is not logical either. The Flankers BVR capability comes from its longer reach and heavier punch. Flanker pilots would most definitly would just want to get thier machine home. Although they have trained with the Falcons from singapore and USAF. For the Flanker, it would be wise to leave the Falcon for Falcrums and Bisons which are limited to the Air to air role.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ptldM3

Black blood said:


> Sir if you read my post again my humble opinion was about AWACS backed Vipers which brings it to the same range and with a lot more details which can be entered into F-16 Core mission processing computer and it would decide how to shoot the flanker down.
> (BTW MKI can be detected from 400kms through AWACS or ground stations due to its bulky size )



Firstly, this thread is about F-16 vs. MKI, not AWACS, but if you want to go there, then India has AWACS too. Is AWACS always an option?






Black blood said:


> Indeed this is an MKI advantage but Let me tell you Russian missiles are not very trust able and F-16's will make sure they are safe , Thanks to their Advanced Electronic countermeasures.



Not trustable, are we compairing Russian technology from 30 years ago? 

Russian missle are not easily fooled by counter measures:

This is in line with the Russian practice of attacking targets by *firing pairs of missiles with different homing systems. This complicates end-game defensive actions for the target aircraft*, as it needs to successfully defeat two homing systems.

Vympel R-77 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Black blood said:


> ** Correction my friend.*
> 
> AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in* inertial navigation system (INS)*. This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an *infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.*



Is this AIM-120C, AIM-120D, or something else? Please post your link, so i can see for myself.



Black blood said:


> *
> AIM-120D's Range
> *
> 
> AIM-120's range is 130 Miles = 209.17km
> app ( real range is classified )



Again please post a link. My reasearch got me a different estimate: 

Formerly known as AIM-120C-8, the AIM-120D has a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, improved HOBS (High-Angle Off-Boresight) capability, and a 50% increase in range, bring it to the *180 km class*. The AIM-120D is a joint US Air Force/US Navy project. 

Raytheon (Hughes) AIM-120 AMRAAM - Scramble

That is about the same range as the R-77, but no where near the Novator K-100 range of 400 km. Also the AIM-120D is suppost to have 50% greater range then the standard AIM-120, so 209 km is probably an over estimate.

Anyways if you're not even sure that Pakistan uses the AIM-120D then why are you bringing it into the discussion?





Black blood said:


> Yes we have a great knowledge of Indian pilots .
> I know they train against the best and we tie down our pilots with their beds
> 
> Honestly the real flight hours of our " Each " pilot is classified but if even i would tell you what is an estimate , i am sure that would be enough for you to keep quite.



Your opinions won't keep me quiet . 300 hours a years is around what US and Israeli pilots get, can Pakistan afford to blow that kind of money on fuel? For what it's worth a member by the name of X-man calculated PAF flight time to 220 hours a year, of course this is just an estimate, don't take it serious.



Black blood said:


> Opppssssssss!
> Tail of a soviet SU-25 shot down by Sqn. Ldr. Athar on August 4, 1988.



Wow, you shot down a ground attack aircraft, congradulations!



Black blood said:


> PAF F-16 Pilot : Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bukhari who shot down Soviet SU-25.



Are you trying to prove the superiority of US aircraft? Because Pakistan Mig-21 pilots shot down Israeli pilots flying US and French aircraft. And Russian pilots humiliated American pilots in Korea. 





Black blood said:


> I would not say the number But we are " thought" to be giving our Pilots more training hours than anyone else behind US.



And what about Nato pilots? What about Israeli pilot? 



Black blood said:


> Our Pilots have flown , F-16's , most of the Sukhoi's , Mig-29's , SU-27's , F-15's , F-16E , and possibly by now EF-2000 too and soon will be Rafale eveluated.
> Dont ask me where !



You want to provide a link please. Mig-29's did i read that correctly?



Black blood said:


> BTW we have been training with Americans ( the best air force in the world ) for over a period of 40+ years.



Yes, Pakistan has good pilots, and you did very well against the Indians. However, times change. Now Indians pilots are getting the flight time and training against the best.






Black blood said:


> JHMS&CS is a greater advantage for Block 52 which literally undermines the TVC of an MKI.
> 
> Regards:



I guess the MKI has HMS too if (i'm wrong correct me):

OLS-30 laser-optical locator system to include a day and night FLIR capability and is *used in conjunction with the helmet mounted sighting system*

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HMC would not undermine TVC, the MKI would still be in control, the F-16 pilot would have his hands full trying to shake the MKI off his ***, and if the F-16 and MKI get into a vertical scissors, for example, then the F-16 pilot might as well eject.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Kompromat

RobbieS said:


> @Blackblood
> 
> I am not qualified to answer on most of the other aspects discussed in this thread, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I did find the following a bit strange-
> 
> *Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?*
> 
> So you are saying the F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B have a range of 200km. Am I right?
> So if they are at the border and the Phalcon has to avoid it and assuming it keeps a distance of 20-30 km out of the missiles range. Wouldnt it still cover an area of 170-180 kms inside Pakistan? That would mean major cities and bases in Sialkot, Islamabad and Rawalpindi besides Lahore which is the closest. That's still not so bad, is it? In all probability by India's aims, the battle wouldn't probably extend beyond these cities.




Good question!

You are Talking about Flying away from FT-2000's 200km (as 
assumed) Range?

ok lets analyze.

Total range of Phalcon approximate 400kms Radius .

Effective Range of FT-2000 = 200 Kms

Detection range of FT-2000 = 350kms

Phalcon's Effective Detection Range when flying away from FT-2000's Range : 400-220 = 180 kms.

So tell me why have you spent 1.1 Billion dollars for such a system which can only Detect and Track for only 180 kms?? 
And you only would have 3 of them so it is a huge risk and wastage of money you have spent .

Another risk for Indian Ground Radar stations stands out as Pakistan bought Brazilian MAR-1 ARM's.






And another " Huge threat to Ground Radar Stations "

RA'AD ALCM.

*This "Stealth " Cruise missile would most likely be used for precision air strikes on enemy command centres, radars, surface to air missile launchers, ballistic missile launchers and stationary warships.*

Operational range	350 km
Speed Subsonic
Guidance system	INS, TERCOM, DSMAC, GPS, COMPASS
Launch platform Combat aircraft
Warhead *Conventional HE or Nuclear*



Regards:

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Kompromat

Kinshuk said:


> *Thank You Sir for staying on the topic. This looks like more of a professionalism.
> 
> And everyone is doing the same.
> 
> Sorry to interrupt, please continue. *



Its a thread about hardware so i would not include Pilots but to a small extent because it is not the machine that flies its the man behind him.

I am enjoying talk with ptldm3.

I am leaving the discussion till tomorrow ....Goodbye

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Robo

Black blood said:


> Good question!
> 
> You are Talking about Flying away from FT-2000's 200km (as
> assumed) Range?
> 
> ok lets analyze.
> 
> Total range of Phalcon approximate 400kms Radius .
> 
> Effective Range of FT-2000 = 200 Kms
> 
> Detection range of FT-2000 = 350kms
> 
> Phalcon's Effective Detection Range when flying away from FT-2000's Range : 400-220 = 180 kms.
> 
> So tell me why have you spent 1.1 Billion dollars for such a system which can only Detect and Track for only 180 kms??
> And you only would have 3 of them so it is a huge risk and wastage of money you have spent .
> 
> Another risk for Indian Ground Radar stations stands out as Pakistan bought Brazilian MAR-1 ARM's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And another " Huge threat to Ground Radar Stations "
> 
> RA'AD ALCM.
> 
> *This "Stealth " Cruise missile would most likely be used for precision air strikes on enemy command centres, radars, surface to air missile launchers, ballistic missile launchers and stationary warships.*
> 
> Operational range	350 km
> Speed Subsonic
> Guidance system	INS, TERCOM, DSMAC, GPS, COMPASS
> Launch platform Combat aircraft
> Warhead *Conventional HE or Nuclear*
> 
> 
> 
> Regards:



180 KM is lot , but what about you, why u wasted your money on AWACS, If india deployed smiler missile in Indian borders where your AWACS planes will fly ?? in Afghanistan?? becasue in 200 KM whole Pak airspace will be covered?  what a waste of money.

It all about measures and counter measures,

B) the Brazilian Anti Radiation missile is Max Range is 25KM, it means your plane has to penetrate envelop of long SAM and Medium SAM and then Short Range SAM...... Oh man 

c) India also has land based Super Sonic Cruze missile with 300 Km range, i think it can cover whole PAK from borders..

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kompromat

[/B]QUOTE=Robo;636204]180 KM is lot , but what about you, why u wasted your money on AWACS, If india deployed smiler missile in Indian borders where your AWACS planes will fly ?? in Afghanistan?? becasue in 200 KM whole Pak airspace will be covered?  what a waste of money.
*first of all thread is about jets and SAM systems are secondary but anyway our saab 2000 and kj2000 are for defensive use not for peeping into india so they will operate on a safe or cleared areas and SAAB comes with an excelent EW suite.*

It all about measures and counter measures,
*yes and in our borders spada 2000 would be deployed.*

the Brazilian Anti Radiation missile is Max Range is 25KM, it means your plane has to penetrate envelop of long SAM and Medium SAM and then Short Range SAM...... Oh man 

*its actual range is classified so cant afford telling you.
We have a backup in the shape of H4 BVRB
*
c) India also has land based Super Sonic Cruze

*I know.. Thanks*

missile with 300 Km range, i think it can cover whole PAK from borders..[/QUOTE]

*i dont know wether to laugh or cry at your knowledge of Pakistan's topography..

Regards.*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## amarnath

Forget it guys, the only thing which can give a head ache for the MKI is Rafael and The F-22 Raptor, Others are of no match...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kinshuk

amarnath said:


> Forget it guys, the only thing which can give a head ache for the MKI is Rafael and The F-22 Raptor, Others are of no match...



How?

Thanks

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## sancho

A humble request to everybody, this thread is about PAFs F16 block 52 vs IAF Su 30 MKI and their capabilities, so please don't put other things like SAMs, BVR missiles, or techs theses versions don't have into the comparison!



Black blood said:


> Comparing a Multi role fighter with a heavy air superiority fighter jet simply just does not make any sense to me.


This is not correct! The Su 27 was an air superiority fighter, the Su 30 MK instead was an improved multi role version of it. That's why IAF gone for the MKI and PLAAF for example for the MKK instead of more Su 27 that they already had.
I agree both are in different weight classes, but the F16b52 at the moment is PAFs high end, multi role fighter, just as the MKI is IAFs high end, multi role fighter, so a comparison does makes sens.


Black blood said:


> The AN/APG-68 radar is a long range up to *300 km*


This range is for detecting targets at sea level, not air targets. The Bars is said to detect and track fighter size targets at around 200 Km range.
I can't provide u "reliable" numbers for APG 68, but maybe this helps in comparison.
Israel also has the F16b52 (Sufa) and evaluated the fighter and its techs before the induction. During the evaluation they found out that the APG 68v9 is inferior to their own EL/M 2032 and they rejected the US radar first. The problem was, that the Americans didn't allow the to customise the fighter with the Israeli radar (same problem they have with F35 customising now).
As you can see in the official brochure of IAI, the 2032 offers this performance:


> Air-to-Air detection and tracking range up to 80 NM.
> Air-to-Sea detection, tracking and classification up
> to 160 NM.
> Air-to-Ground mapping, High Resolution Mapping
> and surface target detection up to 80 NM.



http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/6/27546.pdf

80 NM ~ 148 Km
160 NM ~ 296 Km

So the APG 68v9 will have less, or comparable range to detect a2a targets which is at least 50 Km less than the MKI.

As I stated before, the question is when will the MKI detect a fighter with such a small RCS and will the F16 detect MKI at max range? 


Black blood said:


> Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.


I agree that the weapon and JHMCS is a good combination, but the electronics, especially the EWS in MKI is better! US techs for exports are not as good as US techs for USAF, the MKI instead uses thes same EWS like the Israeli F15s and these are said to be superior to the original USAF F15 EWS.
So it will be canards, TVC, better t/w ratio and better EWS vs Aim 9 and JHMCS.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Kompromat

[/B]QUOTE=Robo;636204]180 KM is lot , but what about you, why u wasted your money on AWACS, If india deployed smiler missile in Indian borders where your AWACS planes will fly ?? in Afghanistan?? becasue in 200 KM whole Pak airspace will be covered?  what a waste of money.
*first of all thread is about jets and SAM systems are secondary but anyway our saab 2000 and kj2000 are for defensive use not for peeping into india so they will operate on a safe or cleared areas and SAAB comes with an excelent EW suite.*

It all about measures and counter measures,
*yes and in our borders spada 2000 would be deployed.*

the Brazilian Anti Radiation missile is Max Range is 25KM, it means your plane has to penetrate envelop of long SAM and Medium SAM and then Short Range SAM...... Oh man 

its actual range is classified so cant afford telling you.
We have a backup in the shape of H4 BVRB

c) India also has land based Super Sonic Cruze

I know.. Thanks

missile with 300 Km range, i think it can cover whole PAK from borders..[/QUOTE]

i dont know wether to laugh or cry at your knowledge of Pakistan's topography..

Regards.


----------



## Peshwa

Black blood said:


> Sir you did not get my point , or may be my opinion was not clear beg you a pardon.
> 
> Phalcon is believed to have a detection range of 400km , and to have all of that range where would they be operating? Its common sense that they would be operating with in 400 km from Pakistan Indian border inside Indian air space am i right?
> 
> *Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?*
> Now look at this.
> 
> "There has been speculation that Pakistan acquired an HQ-9 variant called the FT-2000 some years ago as a short-term countermeasure against India&#8217;s airborne early warning and control aircraft, but no such missile has been seen in the country, and some sources say the FT-2000 was never actually produced"
> Link:ASIAN DEFENCE: Pakistan May Seek Chinese Interceptor Missile Defense by 2012
> 
> Regards:



Hi Blackblood,

You make a good point as far as the bolded portion is concerned....but there is a major flaw that I see with the statement as well.....

One does not deploy an SAM system on the border areas for our mortars and artillery to take out before they can become operational....The primary role of an SAM is to protect important assets such as major cities, economic centres, air bases and strategic assets.....It would be rather a waste for an army to man these SAM on the Indo Pak border which is huge....Do you realize how many FT-2000 batteries Pakistan will need to fill in all the gaps in the border?........Besides....an SAM is not like a fence that it can just be put up anywhere without any resources etc to protect it.....
In theory what you're saying maybe right, but the practical use of these the way you mention it is impossible.....
Just to clarify, the reason why IAF and PAF are able to make incursions into enemy territory is because of this.....else why do we even need an airforce....if your posture is purely defensive...just buy millions of SAM batteries and man them across the border.....(A bit far fetched but just to give you an idea)

India and Pakistan arent stupid to invest billions into expensive AWACS such as Phalcon and Eriye respectively.....Dont you think?

PS: Dont forget that an SAM is useless without a radar....If the Radar is targeted using special forces which can easily make incursions into border areas with ease....these expensive systems become sitting ducks.....Just my 2 cents (Also my assumption)

Anyways.....all this is offtopic and as Sancho mentioned....Lets stick to the discussion after you get the last word in....

Regards

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## amarnath

Kinshuk said:


> How?
> 
> Thanks


SUKHOI 30MKI

Maximum speed: Mach 2.34 (2490 km/h) at 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
Range: 5,000 km (2,700 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level)(With Internal Fuel Tank)
Endurance: 4.5 hrs (upto 10 hrs with in-flight refueling)
Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Rate of climb: >300 m/s (70,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 401 kg/m² (98 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.07 at loaded weight & 1.15 with 50% fuel
AESA radar
thrust vectoring, 131 kN (27,557 lbf) each
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,895 lb)
Can do Pugachev's Cobra air combat maneuvering 

Now tell Me is there any Fighter aircraft other than F-22 and Rafael which can beat this stuff?

MKI is superior to every other fighter planes


----------



## fatman17

18 F-16s v. potentially 230 SUs !!!

come on yar!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Trisonics

Please leave pilots out of this discussion. If you need to include them, start by talking about how much experience PAF has with BVR, Data Links, AWACS.. Since that is what is being discussed. 

I was always confused about IAF wanting two pilots in the cockpit, just go through this page again and it becomes increasingly clear.


----------



## Iggy

fatman17 said:


> 18 F-16s v. potentially 230 SUs !!!
> 
> come on yar!



No sir we are just talking about 1:1 scenario..its good reading both sides..its not a likely scenario but still nice to see having a good discussion


----------



## Veer

RobbieS said:


> @Blackblood
> 
> I am not qualified to answer on most of the other aspects discussed in this thread, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I did find the following a bit strange-
> 
> *Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?*
> 
> So you are saying the F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B have a range of 200km. Am I right?
> So if they are at the border and the Phalcon has to avoid it and assuming it keeps a distance of 20-30 km out of the missiles range. Wouldnt it still cover an area of 170-180 kms inside Pakistan? *That would mean major cities and bases in Sialkot, Islamabad and Rawalpindi besides Lahore which is the closest. That's still not so bad, is it? In all probability by India's aims, the battle wouldn't probably extend beyond these cities.*



Brother, i think one go through the following

Amritsar (Punjab,India) and *Lahore* (Punjab,Pakistan) is : *50.3 kilometers* (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Islamabad *(Islamabad,Pakistan) is : *170.62 *kilometers (km). 

Amritsar (Punjab,India) and *Faisalabad *(Punjab,Pakistan) is : *170*.62 kilometers (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Rawalpindi Cantonment * is :*172*.38 kilometers (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Sialkot* (Punjab,Pakistan) is :*178*.24 kilometers

Ganganagar (Rajasthan,India) and *Bahawalpur* (Punjab,Pakistan) is :
*236*.52 kilometers (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Peshawar* is :
*298*.92 kilometers (km).

Bhuj (Gujarat,India) and *Karachi* (Sindh,Pakistan) is : *319*.71 kilometers (km)

If one go throuh above you will find that these are the cream of Pakistan (Their major cities, most develop areas and strategically imp.) and they are well within the stone throw distance from Indian border. 

The above distances becomes lesser if we calculate the distance from our border.

And After reading this a thought came to my mind we can easily suppress the enemy defense, troops formation, armory etc. using ER long range MBRLs. Like BM-30 "Smerch" and Pinaka. I know these two can not cover whole of above cities. For it, we are building some long range guided MBRLs with Israel which can cover whole of above cities. *It will be more cheaper and least risky.* Then using Brahmos and Aircraft. BTW, *Supersonic Brahmos* can reach all of these cities easily and the under development *Hypersonic can neutralize any defense and penetrate to give desired results.*

*After fireworks we can move ahead quite safely in the air/land.*


----------



## junaid1

good analysis.......................


----------



## junaid1

it would be much better if money is spent on poor people of pakistan-india istead of buying such expensive products

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## junaid1

Each military product that india-pakistan buy ,lets our people to sleep without Bread . i think such extravagance are not justified.some of our people clap when they hear ,india got this new weapon & pakistan got this in response to india ..............takes away a piece of bread out of poor people's mouth. think..............

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Chanakyaa

Black blood said:


> Pilots have flown , F-16's , most of the Sukhoi's , Mig-29's , SU-27's , F-15's , F-16E , and possibly by now EF-2000 too and soon will be Rafale eveluated.



I Think Only F22 and F35 Missed out.
*

#1. Are PAF Pilots Making World Record to Fly Maximum TYPES of Fighters ?*

*#2. How Does The Experiance to FLY MORE TYPES of planes help in a WAR Scenario ?*

#3. When did PAF get MiG 29 ? And Which Sukhois's ? 27/30/35 ?

*Also, As Fatman Pointed out, Your Entire F16 Fleet is Equal to our 2 SQUADRONS of MKI.*

Add To it That Its Going to Be JF17 NOT F16 That will be the Backbone of PAF , while MKI is the Main Fighter for IAF.


----------



## Storm Force

The American Pilot in RED FLAG VEDIO 2008 clearly states that the SU30MKI is a tad/marginally superior to USA legacy jets F16 & F15. 

i THINK his words count. 

SU30MKI is also way below F22


----------



## deckingraj

XiNiX said:


> *Also, As Fatman Pointed out, Your Entire F16 Fleet is Equal to our 2 SQUADRONS of MKI.*



Some great points however they are more off a reply to an off-topic comment. Here discussion is F16 Block 52 vs MKI...Let me clarify the relevant part...As far as number is concerned you are right but i believe the intent of the thread starter is not to consider numbers i.e how do these machines stand against each other one on one...


----------



## DaRk WaVe

> #3. When did PAF get MiG 29 ?



some time back i heard from some one that PAF did got its hand on Ukrainian MiG-29s, but i don't have anything thing concrete to support it

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sancho

Peshwa said:


> Isnt our primary air-superiority fighter the Mig29? In all eventuality, wouldnt the MKI serve as an AWACS role to the MIG29 which would go head to head with an F-16 if ever the situation arose?
> 
> I find it hard to grasp if the IAF would pitch an asset like the MKI directly with an F-16...unless in a dire situation when we have platforms like the Bison and MIG-29 that can take on this role and are solely procured for this purpose....


I think their roles are different, the MKI with 2 pilots, much internal fuel and the long range radar, is perfect for patrol missions. As long we don't have full AWACS radar cover, they will guard the skys and will be the main air superiority fighter.

The Mig 29 instead is the main interceptor of IAF, if any AWACS, or ground radar detects an enemy fighter, or only an unidentified aircraft in Indian airspace, it's mainly the Mig 29 that will send for interception. I think I read in a thread here, that they have a better reaction time then the MKIs (maybe someone can confirm that), so for fast interception they should be preferable.

The Bisons wouldn't stand the F16 in a 1 on 1, their only advantage is the BVR capability in combination with low RCS and data links from MKI, or AWACS.
If they get the informations from more capable radars, they will be able to be undetected for some time and get closer to the enemy, before firing the BVR missiles. 

However, the discussion is about one F16b52 vs one MKI and what could happen when they engage eachother.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

emo_girl said:


> some time back i heard from some one that PAF did got its hand on Ukrainian MiG-29s, but i don't have anything thing concrete to support it



Stop shocking them

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

XiNiX said:


> I Think Only F22 and F35 Missed out.



Normal rubbish??



> #1. Are PAF Pilots Making World Record to Fly Maximum TYPES of Fighters ?[/B]



Maybe they are or they have .



> *#2. How Does The Experiance to FLY MORE TYPES of planes help in a WAR Scenario ?*



Platform knowledge my friend , if you are an F-16 pilot and you are flying against SU-27 that you already have flown , you would know what it can or can't do and what you should or shouldn't do how to protect yourself and use Counter measures. 



> #3. When did PAF get MiG 29 ? And Which Sukhois's ? 27/30/35 ?


MIG-29 was brought to Pakistan for evaluation from a friendly country.
Older Sukhoi's of Syrian , Jordanian , Iraqi Air forces.
J-11, J-11B and SU-30 MKK of PLAAF



> *Also, As Fatman Pointed out, Your Entire F16 Fleet is Equal to our 2 SQUADRONS of MKI.*



Provide me link and even if he has said that then i can understand why he said so



> Add To it That Its Going to Be JF17 NOT F16 That will be the Backbone of PAF , while MKI is the Main Fighter for IAF.



JF-17 is a lightweight multi role fighter it can not compete with MKI but wait for its later blocks II and III which would be tailored specially to give Treatment to MKI.

If Chinese AESA came in handy then the job is done or either we will go for Vixen-1000E AESA.

By that time there would be new Chinese BVRM's and also MBDA metedor BVRAAM

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> The American Pilot in *RED FLAG VEDIO 2008 clearly states that the SU30MKI is a tad/marginally superior to USA legacy jets F16 & F15. *
> 
> i THINK his words count.
> 
> SU30MKI is also way below F22



Thanks for your very useful and deep analysis .

*I am sure this one is going to prove you wrong and gona hurt you a lot*
 
An unnamed US Air Force officer, who is obviously a Nellis F-15 pilot, lectures an audience with incredible details about the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag 2008. 

Both videos were posted yesterday on YouTube by an anonymous contributor, who identifies himself only as an Australian (God bless 'em!). 

If you have any interest in tactical aircraft at all, you must watch these two videos. Learn details about the Cope India fiasco, problems with Russian fighter jet engines, how the *F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI's vectored thrust, and why the Indians apparently won't be asking for more 1 v 1 dogfights with the USAF.*


The cliff notes version? Jamming between aircraft nullified the radar missiles and allowed the aircraft to come into the merge. *The Indians tried to use their post stall maneuvering (i.e. "air show tricks") early and often. The US pilots had learned to counter such moves through mock ACM with the F-22. They used the tactics they had developed to easily move in behind the Flankers when they started "sinking" and to quote the pilot, "drilled their brains out with guns*". http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif 

We also learn what most of us already know through Colonel Fornof's lectures: The Su-30, though able to perform similar *maneuvers during air shows, isn't anywhere close to being in the same league as the F-22 in reality. *

*He does go on to state that once the Indians truly learn how to "fight" their Flankers, then they should start winning more than they lose against standard F-15C and F-16C models. **But the Su-30 doesn't even begin to approach the Raptor.* And it also sounds like he is hinting that upgraded* Eagles with AESA radar may also prove superior. Obviously, in a close-in dogfight, the F-15 in it's current state is more than capable of fighting against the Su-30 and winning as long as it is being operated by quality crews. *

At any rate, I just found those videos interesting when I watched them last night. I figured I might as well post them up this morning for anyone who may not have seen these. Pretty interesting insight from someone "in the know". While good, *obviously the Su-30 isn't quite the invincible machine many people have tried to make it out to be in recent years. In fact, it appears it only achieves parity at best with a design 20 years older than it is! The F-15*
USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line

*Good try to hide the truth anyway*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

People, The F-104 and the MIG-21 both flew in the early 50s and although both the PAF and IAF had these aircraft in their inventory in 1965, it wasn't until 1971 that they faced each other. However,then again India used the MIG-21 as top cover after the failure of the SU-7s.
Any future conflict may as well bring the subject aircraft into confrontation, and since the guy in the cockpit is in the ultimate position to judge the capabilities of their machines, suffice to disclose the comments of IAF SU-30 Leader then a Wing Commander W********* who was in UK to attend JSCC, that if he ever went into battle, he would prefer his old stead, the Mirage-2000. since he wasn't too comfortable with the Russian fighter.


----------



## Kompromat

amarnath said:


> Forget it guys, the only thing which can give a head ache for the MKI is Rafael and The F-22 Raptor, Others are of no match...



*Analysis of the Day!!!*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Peshwa

Black blood said:


> Platform knowledge my friend , if you are an F-16 pilot and you are flying against SU-27 that you already have flown , you would know what it can or can't do and what you should or shouldn't do how to protect yourself and use Counter measures.



If there was a combat excercise where multiple SU-27 platforms went head to head against a PAF F-16, I can see how it could be beneficial for knowledge about manouvers, tactics etc etc....But flying one aircraft wont do the PAF much good......
Is it also safe to assume that since Israel and the US both have better versions of the F-16 than Pakistan and IAF trains with the US and "may" have flown the IsraelI F-16s that we can counter whatever the PAF has to offer?

Besides.....There is a world of difference between a low tech Syrian version of SU-27 and the MKI which is top of the line custom designed version for India only.....

Its like saying that the Enzo drives like a Modena since both are made by Ferrari.....




Black blood said:


> MIG-29 was brought to Pakistan for evaluation from a friendly country.
> Older Sukhoi's of Syrian , Jordanian , Iraqi Air forces.
> J-11, J-11B and SU-30 MKK of PLAAF



Well havent really heard of these excercises....But we will take your word for it....

If you have any details or links to present for the same would be much appreciated....



Black blood said:


> Provide me link and even if he has said that then i can understand why he said so



Just to clarify.....I think Mr.Fatman was speaking purely about the numbers game....
Since the version of F-16 Block 52 that Pakistan will be receiving will be small in numbers....Is it really fair to make a comparison when IAF will be fielding 230 odd number of these....
Head to head on a numbers basis.....even the technological superiority of the F-16 D if true will be negated by the numerical superiority of the MKI....

Thanks
Peshwa

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

Peshwa said:


> Hi Blackblood,
> 
> You make a good point as far as the bolded portion is concerned....but there is a major flaw that I see with the statement as well.....



Thanks for appreciation 



> One does not deploy an SAM system on the border areas for our mortars and artillery to take out before they can become operational....The primary role of an SAM is to protect important assets such as major cities, economic centres, air bases and strategic assets.....It would be rather a waste for an army to man these SAM on the Indo Pak border which is huge....Do you realize how many FT-2000 batteries Pakistan will need to fill in all the gaps in the border?........Besides....an SAM is not like a fence that it can just be put up anywhere without any resources etc to protect it.....
> In theory what you're saying maybe right, but the practical use of these the way you mention it is impossible.....



To destroy them by artillery you would need to spot them which is a pain in the neck.

Camouflage , Location , counter measures are something that we call professional military knowledge and we have people who can make their way out for deployment of FT-2k.

The Aim is to keep the Phalcon restricted as much as we can .
BTW i am hearing about a new System with a range of 400km+ from a friendly nation if it turned out to be true then that is going to create a lot of Fun 

I agree with your rest of the statement but please lets stick to this role for now because it may go a bit off topic. 




> Just to clarify, the reason why IAF and PAF are able to make incursions into enemy territory is because of this.....else why do we even need an airforce....if your posture is purely defensive...just buy millions of SAM batteries and man them across the border.....(A bit far fetched but just to give you an idea)



No Air force is eminent SAMs are a scaring weapon but Air force can do what SAM's can't you know that.



> India and Pakistan arent stupid to invest billions into expensive AWACS such as Phalcon and Eriye respectively.....Dont you think?



Well from a PAF perspective we needed it so did you. 



> Dont forget that an SAM is useless without a radar....If the Radar is targeted using special forces which can easily make incursions into border areas with ease....these expensive systems become sitting ducks.....Just my 2 cents (Also my assumption)
> 
> Anyways.....all this is offtopic and as Sancho mentioned....Lets stick to the discussion after you get the last word in....
> 
> Regards



We would not be sending our Commandos for Destroying Radars , but Babur Cruise missile , RAAD ALCM , MAR-1 , or H-4 BVRB would be more than enough to clear them.

Regards:


----------



## Chanakyaa

Black blood said:


> Platform knowledge my friend , if you are an F-16 pilot and you are flying against SU-27 that you already have flown , you would know what it can or can't do and what you should or shouldn't do how to protect yourself and use Counter measures.



What do u want ur Pilots to be and which one has better success : *Jack of all Trades* or *Master of ONE* ?

You are silently getting away from what is the Gretest strength of PAF. Mastering of F16 Platform. 

As i said "War Scenario", Your F16 will face MKI which has Hidden Features not revealed even in Excersies.
You Mean to say That Even if They have "seen the MKK **** pit" They are aware of how to Take on an MKI ? 

No Way.


> MIG-29 was brought to Pakistan for evaluation from a friendly country.



When n where ?



> Older Sukhoi's of Syrian , Jordanian , Iraqi Air forces.
> J-11, J-11B and SU-30 MKK of PLAAF



MKI employs Tech from Su35 and Su37 ..
Older Sukhois are Lame infront of MKI and You cant understand the Might of a Plane which is Nearly a generation ahead with Heavy Advanced Western Tech as well.



> Provide me link and even if he has said that then i can understand why he said so



Just Go a few posts back.



> JF-17 is a lightweight multi role fighter it can not compete with MKI but wait for its later blocks II and III which would be tailored specially to give Treatment to MKI.



You Forget That By that Time MMRCA would be in place and SH18/Rafale would be in.
Also, By that Time BLK III of Jf17 arrives, say 2022, India would have 2-5 Squadrons of FGFA .. 

JF17 BLK III cannot compete a Gen 5 Fighter. [ JXX wont be ready by 2020 and wont be ready for PAF by 2030 ]



> If Chinese AESA came in handy then the job is done or either we will go for Vixen-1000E AESA.
> 
> By that time there would be new Chinese BVRM's and also MBDA metedor BVRAAM



Ifs n Buts ??
The Mig 29s are gettng Upgraded Already.
The MKIs are also going to Get AESA, Radar already Done in Russia.


----------



## Chanakyaa




----------



## Peshwa

sancho said:


> *I think their roles are different, the MKI with 2 pilots, much internal fuel and the long range radar, is perfect for patrol missions. As long we don't have full AWACS radar cover, they will guard the skys and will be the main air superiority fighter.*
> 
> The Mig 29 instead is the main interceptor of IAF, if any AWACS, or ground radar detects an enemy fighter, or only an unidentified aircraft in Indian airspace, it's mainly the Mig 29 that will send for interception. I think I read in a thread here, that they have a better reaction time then the MKIs (maybe someone can confirm that), so for fast interception they should be preferable.
> 
> The Bisons wouldn't stand the F16 in a 1 on 1, their only advantage is the BVR capability in combination with low RCS and data links from MKI, or AWACS.
> If they get the informations from more capable radars, they will be able to be undetected for some time and get closer to the enemy, before firing the BVR missiles.
> 
> However, the discussion is about one F16b52 vs one MKI and what could happen when they engage eachother.




The Bison though was highly praised by a USAF officer who was impressed with its manouverability and the improvements made post-Bison phase....with the Israeli ELTA upgrades
....I mean it is a 60s platform....(Hopefully it faces the older PAF aircraft if at all)

About the highlighted portion, fully agreed that it will serve as the mainstay for patrol, but with its long range, and heavy payload, I see it being used as a Strategic bomber for Ground attack roles with the MIG-29SMT as close support......especially in light of the fact that the Jaguars are on their way to be phased out in this coming decade...

But I cannot deny that the Alpha Air-Superiority role in IAF goes to the MKI.....whether the need to use these in the role will be empoyed is different(I am speculating).....

I concur with you otherwise.....


----------



## Chanakyaa




----------



## Chanakyaa



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Chanakyaa

Coming to the Big Deal - F22 !!!


----------



## booo

Black blood said:


> Thanks for your very useful and deep analysis .
> 
> *I am sure this one is going to prove you wrong and gona hurt you a lot*
> 
> An unnamed US Air Force officer, who is obviously a Nellis F-15 pilot, lectures an audience with incredible details about the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag 2008.
> 
> Both videos were posted yesterday on YouTube by an anonymous contributor, who identifies himself only as an Australian (God bless 'em!).
> 
> If you have any interest in tactical aircraft at all, you must watch these two videos. Learn details about the Cope India fiasco, problems with Russian fighter jet engines, how the *F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI's vectored thrust, and why the Indians apparently won't be asking for more 1 v 1 dogfights with the USAF.*
> 
> 
> The cliff notes version? Jamming between aircraft nullified the radar missiles and allowed the aircraft to come into the merge. *The Indians tried to use their post stall maneuvering (i.e. "air show tricks") early and often. The US pilots had learned to counter such moves through mock ACM with the F-22. They used the tactics they had developed to easily move in behind the Flankers when they started "sinking" and to quote the pilot, "drilled their brains out with guns*". http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif
> 
> We also learn what most of us already know through Colonel Fornof's lectures: The Su-30, though able to perform similar *maneuvers during air shows, isn't anywhere close to being in the same league as the F-22 in reality. *
> 
> *He does go on to state that once the Indians truly learn how to "fight" their Flankers, then they should start winning more than they lose against standard F-15C and F-16C models. **But the Su-30 doesn't even begin to approach the Raptor.* And it also sounds like he is hinting that upgraded* Eagles with AESA radar may also prove superior. Obviously, in a close-in dogfight, the F-15 in it's current state is more than capable of fighting against the Su-30 and winning as long as it is being operated by quality crews. *
> 
> At any rate, I just found those videos interesting when I watched them last night. I figured I might as well post them up this morning for anyone who may not have seen these. Pretty interesting insight from someone "in the know". While good, *obviously the Su-30 isn't quite the invincible machine many people have tried to make it out to be in recent years. In fact, it appears it only achieves parity at best with a design 20 years older than it is! The F-15*
> USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line
> 
> *Good try to hide the truth anyway*



may be you did not spend some time on that particular blog post. but maybe you should also read this.
'Red Flag' official apologises to IAF - The DEW Line

There are many quotes in that video which are wrong.


----------



## Kompromat

All of those videos are biased and from Indian media which has got a bad reputation already.
I have seen all of those videos a long time ago , if you have some videos from an Independent source post it!

@booo.

Well after the matter went political then they had to send an Apology after Humiliating SU-30 and its Indian pilots.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## RPK



Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## RPK



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## RPK

*Su-30MKI and F-16C and F/A-18E/F*
Military Parade, milparade.com

By Anatoly Shamin, Alexander Ilgov, Vladimir Stepanov 
Central Research Institute #30 of the MoD, Russia

[January 2001]

An analysis of air force inventories in the majority of countries in the Asia-Pacific region indicates that local fighter forces mostly consist of obsolete U.S.-made F-5 and F-4 aircraft. Only a few air forces are armed with relatively new versions of the F-16 and F/A-18 fighters.

An analysis of air force inventories in the majority of countries in the Asia-Pacific region indicates that local fighter forces mostly consist of obsolete U.S.-made F-5 and F-4 aircraft. Only a few air forces are armed with relatively new versions of the F-16 and F/A-18 fighters.

Purchases by India of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters, which have significantly enhanced combat capabilities of the Indian Air Force, and previous sales of the Su-27 and Su-30 fighters to China and Vietnam may determine further development of air forces in the Asia-Pacific region and help maintain the balance of power.

The competition on the Asia-Pacific military aircraft market, made ever keener by the recent sales of the Su-30MKI fighters, requires from potential buyers a clear understanding of basic specifics of aircraft.

The flight performance, technical characteristics and combat capabilities of any aircraft primarily depend on their assigned role, tactical tasks and mission environment. These factors alone distinguish the Russian fighter from its foreign counterparts.

The Su-30MKI design, having retained the best features of the unsurpassed Su-27 air-superiority fighter, boasts enhanced functional capabilities. It should be noted that comparison of the Su-30MKI, a heavy-class fighter, with the F-16C Block 50, F-16C Block 60, and F-18E/F aircraft is largely theoretical, as they belong to conceptually different fighter classes and have their own, preferential areas of combat employment. For example, the F-18E/F version, owing to the F/A-18 basic design, features a more pronounced strike-mission capability, while in terms of dimensions, this aircraft is close to the Russian fighter.










The famed Su-37 and F-16 side by side at an airshow in Berlin. 
The Su-30MKI gets all advanced features of the Su-37 and much more.

The basic tactical and technical characteristics determining the capabilities of any aircraft include its flight performance and avionics and armament characteristics. Their analysis makes it possible to compare aircraft and assess the level of their technical perfection.

The Su-30MKI&#8217;s structural and aerodynamic configuration incorporates the latest research and technological achievements. It is a triplane (a combination of conventional design with foreplanes) with a lifting fuselage and developed wingroot extensions. The interaction of the foreplanes and wingroot extensions creates a controlled vortex effect similar to that of the adaptive wing. The F-16 and F-18 designs were developed in the early and mid-1970s. In terms of maximum aerodynamic efficiency, the Su-30MKI, like all Su-27-family aircraft, is unparalleled in the world and outperforms the above foreign counterparts by at least 50 to 100 percent. This is why the latest modernization programs, which gave birth to the F-16C Block 60 and F-18E/F versions, involved the increase of wing span, fuselage length and control surface areas and significantly changed the structural configuration and general layout of their basic versions.

Engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles enable the Su-30MKI to perform such maneuvers as &#171;cobra&#187; vertical reverse, roll in &#171;bell&#187; turn in &#171;cobra&#187; etc. In these maneuvers, an angle of attack can reach 180o. These are not purely aerobatic maneuvers: this supermaneuverability can be effectively used in combat. As for the F-16 and F-18 aircraft, their maximum angles of attack are 30o and 40o, respectively, and they cannot use armament at supercritical angles of attack.

In terms of conventional maneuverability characteristics, all these fighters are very similar. However, according to preliminary assessments, the Su-30MKI&#8217;s supermaneuverability gives it a 30-percent superiority over its competitors in close air combat. Aircraft multiple capabilities put into the forefront the problem of effective weapon employment. To solve this problem, the Su-30MKI has a copilot/operator to improve the crew&#8217;s performance, weapon employment efficiency and provide for group missions.






The role of avionics in aircraft combat employment is ever growing. A number of the Su-30MKI fighter&#8217;s subsystems (navigation and communications equipment, cockpit instruments) are being developed jointly with foreign companies. Consequently, these subsystems will be technologically on a par with the best foreign counterparts. The superiority of the Su-30MKI&#8217;s radar in terms of target detection range, scanning sectors and jamming immunity makes it highly effective in long-range air combat.

Modern Russian fighters are equipped with an advanced optronic system designed to search, detect, lock on, automatically track aerial and ground targets and destroy them by onboard weapons. An optical locating station and a helmet-mounted sight incorporated by the system provide for effective weapon employment against aerial targets. The high accuracy and jamming immunity of the system interfaced with the onboard radar make it possible to detect targets at a range of up to 50 km and engage them in good time, significantly enhancing the fighter&#8217;s overall combat capabilities. The helmet-mounted sights have only recently appeared on foreign fighters. As for optronic equipment used against ground targets, the capabilities of the F-16&#8217;s LANTIRN and F-18E/F&#8217;s ATFLIR systems are close to those of the Russian-made analog, although foreign developers maintain a priority in this field.

Compared to the F-16C Block 50, a heavy weapon load carried by the Su-30MKI significantly (by 20 percent) reduces the time required to defeat ground targets by one sortie, especially when using aerial bombs. The F-18E/F fighter is planned to have a similar combat load capacity in the future.

Notably, in terms of quantity and types of weapons, the Russian fighter considerably outclasses the F-16C Block 50 and F-16C Block 60 aircraft. Only the F-18E/F is close to the Su-30MKI in this respect.










An Australian(?) F-18 and Su-27 seen together in flight

In terms of target designation angles, maneuverability, etc., the R-73E close-range air-to-air missile in service with the Su-30MKI significantly outperforms similar foreign missiles and is rightly considered the world&#8217;s best in its class. The high energy and ballistic parameters of the Su-30MKI&#8217;s long-range air-to-air missiles, combined with the capability of its radar, allow it to deliver preventive strikes against aerial targets, including its potential rivals.

Fitted with 12 weapon stores, carrying a full complement of air-to-air missiles and featuring a multichannel target engagement capability, the Su-30MKI fighter can be effectively used to repulse a massive air raid.

The Su-30MKI has a twofold advantage over the F-16 aircraft in the number of simultaneously carried air-to-ground guided weapons, which are also more efficient. High-power guided weapons carried by the Su-30MKI enable it to defeat deeply buried, hardened and superhardened priority targets. The Su-30MKI&#8217;s medium-range guided missile can be launched at stand-off ranges. The F-18E/F fighter is expected to be armed with similar missiles after 2005. It will be also equipped with air-to-surface missiles guided by a satellite navigation system, although export deliveries of these aircraft are unlikely in the near future.

Antiradar and antiship missiles in service with the Su-30MKI fighter excel their foreign couterparts in their mean speed.The Su-30MKI&#8217;s gun features higher accuracy and better armor piercing capability against lightly armored vehicles. Owing to its unique features which favorably distinguish it from foreign counterparts, the Su-30MKI is rightly considered one of the best multirole fighters at the beginning of the 21st century.

Aircraft combat capabilities are usually assessed using complex efficiency indicators defining aircraft overall performance. According to preliminary estimates, in long-range air combat, the Su-30MKI outperforms the F-16C Block 60, F-16C Block 50 and F-18E/F aircraft by 15, 20 and 12-15 percent, respectively, owing to its radar&#8217;s greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and multichannel capability, as well as better maneuverability.

he Su-30MKI&#8217;s supermaneuverability and better air-to-air missiles give this aircraft superiority in close air combat in which it excels the F-16C Block 50 by 10-15 percent, F-16C Block 60 by 20-30 percent (as the high wing loading significantly limits its maneuverability in close-range combat), and F-18E/F by 15-20 percent.











Opposing Forces: IAF Su-30K and PAF F-16 Fighters

In terms of ground strike capabilities, the Su-30MKI outperforms the F-16C Block 50 by 50 percent and the F-16C Block 60 by 100 percent owing to its better surveillance and fire control radar system, higher survivability, better maneuverability, heavier combat load and longer flight range. The F-18E/F, following its modernization which has increased its flight range, armament suite and ammunition load and upgraded its surveillance and fire control radar system, still lags behind the Su-30MKI in strike capability by 15 to 20 percent.

Another distinguishing feature of the Su-30MKI is its high versatility. It can be used as an air defense interceptor, a strike aircraft or a flying command post. It can be used as a leader aircraft of combined fighter groups (including those of light fighters), ensuring their cooperation and concentration of efforts. In addition, the SDU-10MK digital fly-by-wire control system makes it possible to use the Su-30MKI as a combat trainer.

The above comparative analysis of the Su-30MKI&#8217;s combat performance and technical characteristics demonstrate that this aircraft is capable of attaining air superiority, repulsing massive air raids, supporting combat actions of other air groups, destroying a wide range of ground and naval targets, and executing various special missions.

The Su-30MKI can operate over short ranges and also fulfill autonomous long-range missions. Unlike the F-16 and F-18 aircraft, the Su-30MKI&#8217;s short-range operation will not reveal all its capabilities, yet its advantages here are still obvious. Hopefully, the above assessment will allow potential customers to evaluate the combat capabilities of the Russian fighter and its main rivals on the Asia-Pacific aircraft market.





Ex Cope India 2005. USAF F-16 is caught in the Su-30 HUD in DACT training.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RPK

Su-30MK protorype #603 in formation with USAF F-16





*More to come on SU-30MKI.....*


----------



## booo

Black blood said:


> @booo.
> 
> Well after the matter went political then they had to send an Apology after Humiliating SU-30 and its Indian pilots.



Lot of the things said by fornoff were wrong and biased. just to quote an example. turmanskies were used in mig25 foxbat and mig31foxhound and not in sukhois. and russian aircrafts are *built to be rugged in nature.* thats why mig29s close their intakes while takeoff to avoid fod (this severly limits their fuel capacity as they take air through the slits over the wings) and sukhois have mesh on the intakes and anti-fod fenders on the front landing gear. just watch "top gun over moscow" documentary to understand the rugged nature of russian fighters. so... coming back to the topic; mr fornoff was *ranting* to satisfy his ego.

mig 29 - the air intakes closed and you can also observe the slits over the wings. and fenders on the front landing gear. Let me see if I can find a sukhoi's image showing the intakes.


----------



## DaRk WaVe



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## MZUBAIR

In this thread, there are so many IF's and Butt's

*Remember war never wins by machines, its the men behind the machines.*

Having big and advance machine never means that ur successfull, U can take examples from current wars !!!!

Secondly F-16 Block 52 is 4th generation, it has all the characteristics of 4th generation fighter and SU 30 MKI is 4.5th generation jet having 4.5th generation characteristics, Su-30 is more capable no doubt as its capabilities from 4.5th generation........*but it never means that F-16, JF-17 or any 4th generation cannot counter it*.....Firing rocket / missile from 180 or from more distance never means that it will destroy the target, but surely jet will lose one of its arrow .... .....*so, it all depends on the men behind the machines, how they use it.*

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## pak-yes

This is one of the most Peaceful VS threads i have ever seen in my life.With both sides only concentrating on actual thread rather than fighting.

Keep it up

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## gogbot

pak-yes said:


> This is one of the most Peaceful VS threads i have ever seen in my life.With both sides only concentrating on actual thread rather than fighting.
> 
> Keep it up



True that.


----------



## Stealth

*Simply ye tu time batayega koon sa jahaz behtar hey 

PS: In Past PAF already show performance against IAF already!

Thanks,
*


----------



## karan.1970

MZUBAIR said:


> In this thread, there are so many IF's and Butt's
> 
> *Remember war never wins by machines, its the men behind the machines.*
> 
> Having big and advance machine never means that ur successfull, U can take examples from current wars !!!!
> 
> Secondly F-16 Block 52 is 4th generation, it has all the characteristics of 4th generation fighter and SU 30 MKI is 4.5th generation jet having 4.5th generation characteristics, Su-30 is more capable no doubt as its capabilities from 4.5th generation........*but it never means that F-16, JF-17 or any 4th generation cannot counter it*.....Firing rocket / missile from 180 or from more distance never means that it will destroy the target, but surely jet will lose one of its arrow .... .....*so, it all depends on the men behind the machines, how they use it.*



Agree.. Right now its just us, a bunch of armchair warriors trying to score points by throwing in suppositions and articles to prove our point. Hopefully for both our nations, we will never find out which air force will win....


----------



## krish

junaid1 said:


> it would be much better if money is spent on poor people of pakistan-india istead of buying such expensive products



dude its always poor people and its not the economic forum its defence and more over GOI is spending only 3% of GDP and remaining 97 % is spent on poor people so do not worry about poor people we know how to take care of our people better...................

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## krish

Black blood said:


> Stop shocking them



here is one more shock dude we had a hands on f-16 with proof for mmrca and we do know how the advanced f16 works so we are even but still we have the upper hand in su 30 mki but u dont know what in store for u in there


----------



## krish

Black blood said:


> Normal rubbish??
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they are or they have .
> 
> 
> 
> Platform knowledge my friend , if you are an F-16 pilot and you are flying against SU-27 that you already have flown , you would know what it can or can't do and what you should or shouldn't do how to protect yourself and use Counter measures.
> 
> 
> MIG-29 was brought to Pakistan for evaluation from a friendly country.
> Older Sukhoi's of Syrian , Jordanian , Iraqi Air forces.
> J-11, J-11B and SU-30 MKK of PLAAF
> 
> 
> 
> Provide me link and even if he has said that then i can understand why he said so
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 is a lightweight multi role fighter it can not compete with MKI but wait for its later blocks II and III which would be tailored specially to give Treatment to MKI.
> 
> If Chinese AESA came in handy then the job is done or either we will go for Vixen-1000E AESA.
> 
> By that time there would be new Chinese BVRM's and also MBDA metedor BVRAAM



Why u always want china to provide u with weapons fine india is not self sufficient but we do try it at-least............ even if it takes 20 or 30 years to complete its our product no one else i dont think the great pakistan needs to completely depend on others at-least u should try it on ur own...........................................


----------



## alibaz

krish said:


> Why u always want china to provide u with weapons fine india is not self sufficient but we do try it at-least............ even if it takes 20 or 30 years to complete its our product no one else i dont think the great pakistan needs to completely depend on others at-least u should try it on ur own...........................................



I think we are heading in right direction. JF-17 is in air. Although a lot is to be done, please don't worry.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AVIAN

Difference between F-16s and MKI depends upon their assigned mission profile. Fighter jets cannot be compared on the basis of their specifications with each other rather it depends upon how those jets achieve their mission objective with maximum effect alongwith focused team work in tandem with Awacs, GCI etc. 

F-16 can do lots of jobs that as MKI can do, but at the end of the day, it depends upon team work.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## skyisthelimit

AVIAN said:


> Difference between F-16s and MKI depends upon their assigned mission profile. Fighter jets cannot be compared on the basis of their specifications with each other rather it depends upon how those jets achieve their mission objective with maximum effect alongwith focused team work in tandem with Awacs, GCI etc.
> 
> F-16 can do lots of jobs that as MKI can do, but at the end of the day, it depends upon team work.



totally agreed.....in fact i would add here it also depends on the pilots skill.... 

only time will show which one of these two is better....


----------



## krish

alibaz said:


> I think we are heading in right direction. JF-17 is in air. Although a lot is to be done, please don't worry.



i am not worried at all since ya said jf 17 to counter the argument i put forward PAK-FA the fifth gen aircraft ........... lets not consider both since these are joint ventures dont get into the argument who did howmuch on the aircraft .......... its just gonna elongate the argument tell me indegenious product


----------



## Kinshuk

*KRISH,

PLEASE BE ADVISED AS WHEN I STARTED THE THREAD I VERY CLEARLY MENTIONED, NO COUNTRY BASHING, NO OTHER FIGHTER AIRCRAFT EXCEPT F 16 BLOCK 52 AND SU 30 MKI UNLESS IT IS REQUIRED FOR THE COMPARISON. 

SORRY BUT MAY BE YOU ARE NOT AWARE, WE HAVE A NEW POLICY OF NOT FEEDING TO ANY TROLLS. THOUGH I DIDN'T SEE ANY FRO THE OTHER SIDE, SO PLEASE KEEP YOUR VOICE LOW. I REQUEST YOU. 

PLEASE GIVE RESPECT TO ALL THE MEMBERS AS IT'S NOT INDIA VS PAKISTAN, IT IS SU 30 MKI VS F16 BLOCK 52. 
THANKS.

I HOPE YOU WILL MAKE US PROUD. *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

IF PAF HAD 

230 F16/52 then this would be a good debate since i admire.love the falcon. 

But they only have 18 in 2011 

They will upgrade 44 much older F16s to BVR level too.

SU30MKI already nos 120 in nearly 6 sdqs in IAF and is rising by 15 a year to at least 230 by 2015. 

Outnumbered/ outgunned is a massive understatement


----------



## krish

Kinshuk said:


> *KRISH,
> 
> PLEASE BE ADVISED AS WHEN I STARTED THE THREAD I VERY CLEARLY MENTIONED, NO COUNTRY BASHING, NO OTHER FIGHTER AIRCRAFT EXCEPT F 16 BLOCK 52 AND SU 30 MKI UNLESS IT IS REQUIRED FOR THE COMPARISON.
> 
> SORRY BUT MAY BE YOU ARE NOT AWARE, WE HAVE A NEW POLICY OF NOT FEEDING TO ANY TROLLS. THOUGH I DIDN'T SEE ANY FRO THE OTHER SIDE, SO PLEASE KEEP YOUR VOICE LOW. I REQUEST YOU.
> 
> PLEASE GIVE RESPECT TO ALL THE MEMBERS AS IT'S NOT INDIA VS PAKISTAN, IT IS SU 30 MKI VS F16 BLOCK 52.
> THANKS.
> 
> I HOPE YOU WILL MAKE US PROUD. *



sure man i did not start it he started with the jf 17 thing but any ways since u asked i'll try and restrain myself.......................

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> In this thread, there are so many IF's and Butt's
> 
> *Remember war never wins by machines, its the men behind the machines.*
> 
> Having big and advance machine never means that ur successfull, U can take examples from current wars !!!!


Without any offense, but isn't this view outdated? The weapons and techs are way more important now, than the pilots qualities. Most actual fighters are geared for BVR combats (long range radars, low RCS, long range missiles) and even in WVR combats we can see that missile maneuverability and HMS are the key feat, only followed by techs of the fighters like t/w ratio, canards, or TVC.
Isn't the F35 a perfect example for this? Stealth + AESA radar + Aim 120D for BVR of the future, Aim 9X + JHMCS for WVR, but compared to actual fighters like EF, Rafale, or the Flankers it offers less speed, less maneuverability. That means the pilot don't have to be an ace like in the past, he only has to be trained enough to use the techs.
Even for the A2G role it is similar! In the past a twin seat config was prefered for strike fighters and they had to train very often for such missions. Again for F35 (Joint Strike Fighter) it is said, that one pilot is enough, because the techs will take over most of the work.
With guided bombs and missiles it is way easier to hit a target than ever before and it should be clear, that the future in this role will be UCAVs, with a pilots sitting thousands of Km away from the war and they only have to use a joystick and press some buttons.

The get the curve back to the topic, with PAFs pilots used to F16 for such a long time and IAF pilots with high flying hours (comparable and sometimes even superior to NATO members), we can say both pilots will be well trained and used to their fighters. So the techs will remain the main difference again, the one who can detect the other one at first, can bring himself in the better attack position and can fire at first. Also in WVR the main chance of F16 pilots will be Aim9 and JHMCS, without they will be clearly inferior to MKIs, no matter how good they are.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## junaid1

krish said:


> dude its always poor people and its not the economic forum its defence and more over GOI is spending only 3&#37; of GDP and remaining 97 % is spent on poor people so do not worry about poor people we know how to take care of our people better...................




http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/defence-spending-causes-poverty-in-india/

plz correct your numbers.dude


----------



## krish

junaid1 said:


> Defence spending causes poverty in India A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> plz correct your numbers.dude



i stay by what i have said it is 3% +/- not more than that i have my numbers rite and i know what is happening in my country...........
Rather than pointing at me get correct info and then put the argument 
here are some simple links which supports my claim.........

Indian Defence Budget Could Touch US$ 40 Billion In 2009 | India Defence

read the first line of the last paragraph in the link
10 Per cent Hike In Indian Defence Budget for 2008-09 | India Defence 


India&#8217;s Defense Budget Rises 7%, to $20.11 Bn


----------



## sivadreams

krish said:


> i stay by what i have said it is 3% +/- not more than that i have my numbers rite and i know what is happening in my country...........
> Rather than pointing at me get correct info and then put the argument
> here are some simple links which supports my claim.........
> 
> Indian Defence Budget Could Touch US$ 40 Billion In 2009 | India Defence
> 
> read the first line of the last paragraph in the link
> 10 Per cent Hike In Indian Defence Budget for 2008-09 | India Defence
> 
> 
> Indias Defense Budget Rises 7%, to $20.11 Bn



*IGNORE TROLS AND STICK TO TOPIC*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kinshuk

Chills!! 

Good thoughts but when cross border issue happens no one actually cares for poor or rich, *Remember National security is the top most priority of any Country, Pakistan or India*. 

Back to the topic without traducing each other.. Guys repect other nation.


----------



## Kompromat

Veer said:


> Brother, i think one go through the following
> 
> Amritsar (Punjab,India) and *Lahore* (Punjab,Pakistan) is : *50.3 kilometers* (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Islamabad *(Islamabad,Pakistan) is : *170.62 *kilometers (km).
> 
> Amritsar (Punjab,India) and *Faisalabad *(Punjab,Pakistan) is : *170*.62 kilometers (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Rawalpindi Cantonment * is :*172*.38 kilometers (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Sialkot* (Punjab,Pakistan) is :*178*.24 kilometers
> 
> Ganganagar (Rajasthan,India) and *Bahawalpur* (Punjab,Pakistan) is :
> *236*.52 kilometers (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Peshawar* is :
> *298*.92 kilometers (km).
> 
> Bhuj (Gujarat,India) and *Karachi* (Sindh,Pakistan) is : *319*.71 kilometers (km)



Good research .



> If one go throuh above you will find that these are the cream of Pakistan (Their major cities, most develop areas and strategically imp.) and they are well within the stone throw distance from Indian border.



Exactly but my friend what i know about those cities is what you do not know about them so leave it because the discussion is will go on the other side



> The above distances becomes lesser if we calculate the distance from our border.



What about from our borders



> And After reading this a thought came to my mind we can easily suppress the enemy defense, troops formation, armory etc. using ER long range MBRLs. Like BM-30 "Smerch" and Pinaka. I know these two can not cover whole of above cities. For it, we are building some long range guided MBRLs with Israel which can cover whole of above cities. *It will be more cheaper and least risky.* Then using Brahmos and Aircraft. BTW, *Supersonic Brahmos* can reach all of these cities easily and the under development *Hypersonic can neutralize any defense and penetrate to give desired results.*



So you are talking about Bombing Pakistan's cities , go Pray to God if you have any that your leaders do not agree with what you think.

What you thought is action but you forgot about the reaction my friend.



> *After fireworks we can move ahead quite safely in the air/land.*



First of all it depends on what we are talking about a Full scale Indian Invasion of Pakistan or a Surgical strike.

If it is a full scale war then do you really think that we would watch this bollywood movie while sitting on our couches and having coffee?

First attack from India maybe answered by Cruise missiles on selective targets and it can go worse ... anyway we are going away from the topic.

regards:

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

pak-yes said:


> This is one of the most Peaceful VS threads i have ever seen in my life.With both sides only concentrating on actual thread rather than fighting.
> 
> Keep it up



yes Because i have been in a good mood

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

Leave everything for a second , accept or not my boy looks more Cool

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## gogbot

Veer said:


> Brother, i think one go through the following
> 
> Amritsar (Punjab,India) and *Lahore* (Punjab,Pakistan) is : *50.3 kilometers* (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Islamabad *(Islamabad,Pakistan) is : *170.62 *kilometers (km).
> 
> Amritsar (Punjab,India) and *Faisalabad *(Punjab,Pakistan) is : *170*.62 kilometers (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Rawalpindi Cantonment * is :*172*.38 kilometers (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Sialkot* (Punjab,Pakistan) is :*178*.24 kilometers
> 
> Ganganagar (Rajasthan,India) and *Bahawalpur* (Punjab,Pakistan) is :
> *236*.52 kilometers (km).
> 
> Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and *Peshawar* is :
> *298*.92 kilometers (km).
> 
> Bhuj (Gujarat,India) and *Karachi* (Sindh,Pakistan) is : *319*.71 kilometers (km)
> 
> If one go throuh above you will find that these are the cream of Pakistan (Their major cities, most develop areas and strategically imp.) and they are well within the stone throw distance from Indian border.
> 
> The above distances becomes lesser if we calculate the distance from our border.
> 
> And After reading this a thought came to my mind we can easily suppress the enemy defense, troops formation, armory etc. using ER long range MBRLs. Like BM-30 "Smerch" and Pinaka. I know these two can not cover whole of above cities. For it, we are building some long range guided MBRLs with Israel which can cover whole of above cities. *It will be more cheaper and least risky.* Then using Brahmos and Aircraft. BTW, *Supersonic Brahmos* can reach all of these cities easily and the under development *Hypersonic can neutralize any defense and penetrate to give desired results.*
> 
> *After fireworks we can move ahead quite safely in the air/land.*




First of I want to thank the Veer for Those distances.

Which let me work out something, using some basic maths.

Now The Brhamos can Travel at speeds of up to Mach 2.8 , carrying a 300kg warhead.

now i am going to take Mach 2.5 as the Average speed.
which is

*Mach 2.5 = 850.72500 m / s*

At that speed it would take 5.6 Minutes to reach its target at its maximum range of 290km for carrying a warhead at 300kg.

So it would be Reasonable for me assume that in the even of a Strike, *In the first 5 min of combat multiple targets across of the border would have been destroyed.* 

*And in the event of targets as close as 50 Km it would take less than a minute in travel time.*

Just putting the figures out there interpret as you see fit, A lot of installations in the 1minute range range even more in the 5 min range

Imagine the amount of damage done in the opening 10 min alone, damage tto airfields, communication lines, Logistics and Radar systems.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

^^^^

are you in a perception that Indian Air Fields are not in range of Pakistani Cruise missiles 

No doubt Indians have advantage but it will be all about 'Damage control'



> Leave everything for a second , accept or not my boy looks more Cool



I am sorry but Flankers when fully loaded look just awesome


----------



## gogbot

Black blood said:


> Leave everything for a second , accept or not my boy looks more Cool



Aren't they the Block 60 F-16's that the USE uses.

And how can you deny the Majestic Su-30













*A sign of things to come*

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## DaRk WaVe

> Aren't they the Block 60 F-16's that the USE uses.



They are Greek Block 52s

Block 60 has got an IRST





>



 
Bomb Truck 
PS: No offense

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gogbot

EmO GiRl said:


> They are Greek Block 52s
> 
> Block 60 has got an IRST



Yhea but i though only the Block 60 had those extended fuel tanks.

Does the Block 52 have them too ?


----------



## DaRk WaVe

gogbot said:


> Yhea but i though only the Block 60 had those extended fuel tanks.
> 
> Does the Block 52 have them too ?



if by 'extended fuel tank' means conformal fuel tanks then, yes

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Kompromat

Now everyone accept my boy looks more cool warna sab ki pitai lagay gi

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Kompromat




----------



## gogbot

Black blood said:


> Now everyone accept my boy looks more cool warna sab ki pitai lagay gi



Sorry mate not good enough.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kinshuk

Yeah!!! baby!!! Both are hot, good looking but sukhoi got two holes

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gogbot



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Reactive Armour

jatt said:


> The Su-30MKI have HMS. In close range the F-16 is formidable but only limited by its pilot. For the Falcon to come into close range with the Flanker, wouldn't be wise as the Flanker possess the thrust vectoring, and the HMS and an extra pair of eyes in the cockpit. For the Flanker, there would be no point in going in for WVR combat eithier. Its a much more capable machine that can be used in other areas and to risk itsself for a lone F-16 is not logical either. The Flankers BVR capability comes from its longer reach and heavier punch. Flanker pilots would most definitly would just want to get thier machine home. Although they have trained with the Falcons from singapore and USAF. For the Flanker, it would be wise to leave the Falcon for Falcrums and Bisons which are limited to the Air to air role.




You are right the presence of copilot/operator will certainly give MKI an edge. Plus target designation angles, maneuverability, and R-73E give MKI some benefit in close range combat as well.


----------



## krish

Black blood said:


> Now everyone accept my boy looks more cool warna sab ki pitai lagay gi



man the flypast is very cool i love it and i dont know whether it is a photo shop or not it is cool............... and if it is real all hail the photographer


----------



## saurabh

A little off the topic question, without any offense intended..

I heard from some one that PAF f16 dont go to air much, when not needed.
The reason he gave was that PAF would get problems maintaining, due to unavailability of spares, uncle put sanctions. How much truth in it? Or was it partially correct during 90s, before 9/11?


----------



## Imran Khan

you are in half right here sir.yes before 9-11 but not in early 90s late 90s we buy parts from black market .also you have to see pakistani pilots hours thread you will surprise when see f-16 hours.


----------



## freddiemaize

And thus attitude comes into picture. "Black Market" :|


----------



## hindustan

imran khan said:


> you are in half right here sir.yes before 9-11 but not in early 90s late 90s we buy parts from black market ..





you are saying you are using low quality parts from black markets

ahh not good


----------



## saurabh

imran khan said:


> you are in half right here sir.yes before 9-11 but not in early 90s late 90s we buy parts from black market .also you have to see pakistani pilots hours thread you will surprise when see f-16 hours.



Can you elaborate. I know some arab countries operate f16, but i doubt if they can supply spares.

PS: wanted to know about their flight hours, so plz give me the link.


----------



## indiatech



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kharian_Beast

SU30 MKI is a very capable platform, watching this giant thing maneuver and that also with BVR missiles and a serious radar makes me think of bad scenarios for PAF. The numerical advantage is also something worth considering. Just imagine, if inducted with current avionics and radar, SU30 MKI of the IAF can simply stand much inside it's own territory and pick off Thunders 8 at a time before we can even see what is hitting us. I'll even go so far as to say Block 52 will meet it's match in this bird. You need something with AESA and AIM 120D to send this Flanker back into it's nest. 18 Block 52 will not be enough either, but I can see only strict discussion of the specific aircraft is taking place and not about the air forces fielding these birds so I will end my input here.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Storm Force

Thank you for the Both the F16/52 pictures and the stunning Flanker images. 

The F16/52 like all USA planes looks very cool 

But have to say the Indian su30mki looks simply awesome. Brute power,, execptionally agility,,, and simply oozzes class in the looks dept. 

great choice by india and a massive fleet at 230 birds or 13 sdqs


----------



## Kompromat

Thanks gogbot for pictures , indeed Flanker is a beauty i was just having some fun with you guys..


----------



## Kompromat

Kinshuk said:


> Yeah!!! baby!!! Both are hot, good looking but sukhoi got two holes

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## indiarocks

what a joke man when u have no reply simply back out haaaanh...thats called bravery right....i know both india and pak are steong enough but lets accept the truth that pak due to its less economy ,somewhere lags behind the india.well i dont think sams are being discussed here ....


----------



## illuminatidinesh

Dear Black blood no offense intended ..... Do u take into mind of the range of the flanker? And for a good BVRM it needs a good radar... For kind information MKI has a strong one. And u need to keep the missile well informed about the target all the time till Missile on board radar takes control(standard procedure). Correct me if am wrong. So in the end u need to come closer to MKI to take it out. Believe me some compared F22 with MKI. But F22 beats this beast in STEALTH , ELECTRONICS,AVIONICS.... that s y F22 can come closer to MKI unnoticed.... how ever MKI do has disadvantage..... It has quite larger cross section which they r working to reduce. 
Correct me if there s any mistake.


----------



## kish

junaid1 said:


> it would be much better if money is spent on poor people of pakistan-india istead of buying such expensive products





most welcome if both country do this ,,, but still we should always remember that human are fighting from the first day we know . so better to be always prepare well.


----------



## nightcrawler

Kinshuk said:


> *So long time no Versus thread.*
> 
> But it's time for one as Pakistan will have F-16 block 52 with BVR capability, irrespective of nos compared to MKIs in India, What will be Air combat scenario between the two beasts.
> 
> Block 52 would be having new electronics, better radar, AMRAAM capability against SU MKI.
> 
> So it begins. One on One.
> 
> *No attacks on country please. It's only dedicated to F-16block 52 vs SU 30 MKI and please keep it limited to that only.:coffee*:



Must thank You even on YOUR question which lead to such a constructive answering & comparing


----------



## below_freezing

unfortunately Su-30 MKI would win.

both have BVR ability, but the Su-30 has a longer range with its AESA radar.

however a very important consideration is fuel. the F-16 has a very short combat radius of 550 km. with additional maneuvering, this becomes shorter. if drop tanks are added, not only is the maneuvering ability reduced but the amount of carried weapons is reduced.

the Su-30 MKI, however, can have essentially unlimited fuel for maneuvering as compared to the F-16, and has superior maneuverability, acceleration and flight ceiling. this can be done with full weapons load, no drop tanks.

in defensive operations the Su-30 can stay right outside the F-16's missile range with its superior range and engines and fire its missiles only when the F-16 turns back after a successful sorty, and is no longer able to guide its own missiles with its radar.

in offensive operations the Su-30 can launch missiles against the F-16 from just within the range of the F-16, turn away to move outside F-16 missile range, and use its AESA radar and continue guiding the missiles even at an angle away.

this of course is a very simplified case that doesn't take into account SAMs, unpredictable tactics and electronic warfare.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dash

> both have BVR ability, but the Su-30 has a longer range with its AESA radar.



A little correction - MKIs dont have AESA yet, they operate Bars Radar.


----------



## below_freezing

Dash said:


> A little correction - MKIs dont have AESA yet, they operate Bars Radar.



thanks my mistake

but Bars radar still has 50 km range over the AN/APG-68


----------



## lhuang

India will use its M2005s + MiG29s against Pakistans F-16s, Su-30s are reserved for us ^_^


----------



## KS

lhuang said:


> India will use its M2005s + MiG29s against Pakistans F-16s, Su-30s are reserved for us ^_^



@lhuang

hahaha.....
u seem to be Chinese.but in many posts u seem to support India.

as a layman who knows almost nothing abt Chinese ppl.....which of the two types is common in China..
1) shchinese type  or 
2)lhuang type. .??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lhuang

Karthic Sri said:


> @lhuang
> 
> hahaha.....
> u seem to be Chinese.but in many posts u seem to support India.
> 
> as a layman who knows almost nothing abt Chinese ppl.....which of the two types is common in China..
> 1) shchinese type  or
> 2)lhuang type. .??



I'm actually a RAW agent in disguise.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## karan.1970

Karthic Sri said:


> @lhuang
> 
> hahaha.....
> u seem to be Chinese.but in many posts u seem to support India.
> 
> as a layman who knows almost nothing abt Chinese ppl.....which of the two types is common in China..
> 1) shchinese type  or
> 2)lhuang type. .??



Believe you me.. lhuang type.. I deal with my peers in our China office every day.. I agree i have only met about 200-300 chinese folks in my life and know only 30-40 of them very well. But havent seen a single one like the 1st type. Based on my experience, only his flags seem chinese.. But then my experience is limited 

But hey.. we are going off topic...


----------



## KS

^^^^

nice to hear....but bak to topic.


----------



## gowthamraj

both planes look so hot, in my opinion if both fires AIM and R-77 at same time, it's RIP for both planes at same time


----------



## karan.1970

lhuang said:


> I'm actually a RAW agent in disguise.



If that's the case, you arent doing a good job of disguising yourself


----------



## sirius4u

below_freezing said:


> thanks my mistake
> 
> but Bars radar still has 50 km range over the AN/APG-68



Actually the AN/APG-68,s operational range is 300 km... its effective tracking range must be sumthin in 250 km... but tha BARS has an operatioinal range of 425 km and a tracking range of 350km...

It could serve as an early warning system tooo. its radar has the ability to detect, track and engage cruise missiles too...


----------



## blain2

These are redundant AI radar coverages specially given that both sides will be flying under positive AEW coverage which is much farther looking than both the APG and the BARS.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sirius4u

gowthamraj said:


> both planes look so hot, in my opinion if both fires AIM and R-77 at same time, it's RIP for both planes at same time



Yes but the point to note that the MKI has a very powerful jammer in it which can blind the APG 68 easily... The isrealis wer not satisfied with the APG 68 and only so the integrated their f 16s with their own radar and created the sufa...


----------



## Dark Angel

sirius4u said:


> Yes but the point to note that the MKI has a very powerful jammer in it which can blind the APG 68 easily... The isrealis wer not satisfied with the APG 68 and only so the integrated their f 16s with their own radar and created the sufa...





That s right they prefered the ELTA-2052 radar over APG 68 stating that APG-68 is good but in todays warfare F-16s needed something better like an AESA 


remember tejas will also get ELTA-2052


----------



## Break the Silence

gowthamraj said:


> both planes look so hot, in my opinion if both fires AIM and R-77 at same time, it's RIP for both planes at same time



OH!! Come on my friend... Now leave everything ...radar,bvr, range...everything..Just compare the looks...
SU-30 MKI rocks man!!!
f-16 is nowhere in terms of looks ... 
Flanker is ,,,hottt!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## S.U.R.B.

Break the Silence said:


> OH!! Come on my friend... Now leave everything ...radar,bvr, range...everything..Just compare the looks...
> SU-30 MKI rocks man!!!
> 
> Flanker is ,,,hottt!!!



F-16 is not bad either....
beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder ...



> f-16 is nowhere in terms of looks ...



F-16 is right there...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## indiarocks

Black Blood said:


> Comparing a Multi role fighter with a heavy air superiority fighter jet simply just does not make any sense to me.
> 
> Anyway lets do it.
> 
> *Radar comparison *
> 
> 
> 
> As we know F-16c or Block 50/52+ comes with a V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities.
> 
> *F-16 Radar Features*
> 
> The AN/APG-68 radar is a long range up to *300 km* and a Pulse-doppler radar designed by Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) to replace AN/APG-66 radar in the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The AN/APG-68 radar system consists of the following line-replaceable units:
> Antenna
> Dual Mode Transmitter (DMT)
> Modular Low-power radio frequency (MLPRF)
> Programmable signal processor (PSP)
> 
> The AN/APG-68(V)9 radar is the latest development. Besides the increase in scan range compared to the previous version, it has a Synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability.
> 
> *Benefits*
> 
> 30 percent increase in detection range.
> 
> Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference;
> Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode)
> 
> Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode.
> 
> Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode;
> Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons
> Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode;
> Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.
> 
> *Su-30mki radar*
> 
> 
> 
> The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 4050 km.
> 
> *F-16 Engine:*
> One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
> 
> *Performance:*
> Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range *2450 miles* with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's)
> *
> Dogfight capability.*
> 
> F-16 is meant is the most successful dog fighter ever created it has over a 100 kills without sustaining a single loss ( About 30 of them are from PAF )
> 
> This video speaks for itself that nothing matches the Viper in a dogfight specially when we take Block 52's Joint helmet mounted cuing system or JHMCS which is simply a look at shoot at capability to fire its infrared guided missiles so the Viper would not need TVC .
> 
> http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/KWSN-
> Men/339/
> 
> *Introduction video*
> 
> YouTube - PAF F-16 Block 50-52+ The Ultimate killing machine
> 
> F-16 Block 52+ Cockpit.
> 
> 
> 
> VS
> 
> SU30 Mki cockpit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *F16 B-52 A2A missiles *
> 
> Air-to-air missiles:
> 2× AIM-7 Sparrow
> 6× AIM-9 Sidewinder
> 6× IRIS-T or
> 6× AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+*miles!!!!*
> 
> *SU-30 A2A missiles*
> 
> Air to Air Missiles:
> 10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
> 10 × Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 80 km
> 6 × R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM *130 km There is a difference between Miles and Kms isn't it??*
> 6 × R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
> 2 × R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
> 2 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
> 6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> So my conclusion is that Tough SU-30 is a whole different class of fighter tough it is Twin engine , Dual cockpit and it can carry a hell load of weapons and has a greater range.
> 
> In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of 300kms and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D will shoot down an SU-30 way before.
> 
> But the issue is Pakistan has ordered a AIM-120C variant which has a range of only 105km so Pakistan must buy a D variant or it " could " be on our order already.
> 
> In a dogfight.
> 
> PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!
> 
> Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.
> 
> Regards:



sir,

first of all thank you very much for your very useful post......

now lets try out some facts...su-30mki was praised by the raf pilots who conceded their typhoon has less maneuverability than su-30mki...they called it best ever flanker ever maid...also they added addition of a aesa radar will make it one of the most dangerous plane ever made for which india has already placed the order next 100 plane will be given zhuk e aesa radar...but the system will take time till 2014 for induction..

well lets leave the aesa radar..as it is not a part of plane right now..
also india defeated usa in cope india without using the ragar....
also us officer James b crown said integration of Israel and French avionics has done the trick for Indian mki's .also Malaysia which operates both su-30mkm and f-18 super hornet said the mki is better than any other plane currently in its inventory....<weapon wars:beasts:special edition of janes defense weakly which ranked mki 4 places ahead than the f-16 block 52<December 2009>>

i tried for a net link but cant find it...but its documentary DVD will be launched in July...hope will provide u links then..sorry for that

well to mention here bramhos cruise missile will be integrated with su-30 mki and mkms by starting of 2012...with currently the missile is under production for sequence pilot tests...which will be held in july in russia...

well i agree with you...about the radars...where su-30mki has great advantage but your experience with f-16's will surely help you....but we have experience with mki's for last 6 years and have great experience with russian planes for last three decades...


LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST...I SINCERELY HOPE THESE TWO PLANES NEVER COME BEFORE EACH OTHER....


----------



## KS

S.U.R.B. said:


> F-16 is not bad either....
> beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder ...
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 is right there...




Cmon buddy...hw can it be compared to this super-hottie..?


----------



## farhan_9909

F-16 block 52 are good against indian mirage, bt against MKI they are nt good.

MKI is twin engine f-16 single


----------



## Indian Gurkha

Kinshuk said:


> Yeah!!! baby!!! Both are hot, good looking but sukhoi got two holes



sukhoi looks lyk an eagle while the F16 looks like a hawk


----------



## Jazzbot

Karthic Sri said:


> Cmon buddy...hw can it be compared to this super-hottie..?



well to be honest, i like the looks of MKI more than any other plane. To me, MKI is most beautiful bird after Raptor.


----------



## Mirza Jatt

I have never seen a su30 MK*I* with well finished shiny paints.(apart from just the 4 birds painted in tri colour)..still in looks I find it better than the F16 (shown above).

does anyone have some nice pictures of su30mki..apart from these old ones that we keep seeing ??thanks in advance.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Well you will not find an operational aircraft with a shiny paint. It is better not use a shiny one.


----------



## KS

jazzy_superior said:


> well to be honest, i like the looks of MKI more than any other plane. To me, MKI is most beautiful bird after Raptor.



Arey Bhaijaan....for the Raptor we r bringing out this bird...


----------



## indiarocks

Indian Jatt said:


> I have never seen a su30 MK*I* with well finished shiny paints.(apart from just the 4 birds painted in tri colour)..still in looks I find it better than the F16 (shown above).
> 
> does anyone have some nice pictures of su30mki..apart from these old ones that we keep seeing ??thanks in advance.



f-16 is no where in comparison to mki looks ...its dammmmmm hot...


----------



## Mirza Jatt

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well you will not find an operational aircraft with a shiny paint. It is better not use a shiny one.



By shiny I meant..a nicely painted one..with well finished edges.


----------



## Dash

Mr Black Blood 



> 6&#215; AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+miles!!!!



I dont think AIM 120D is ever fitted in F16 block 52 AC and Info regarding SU30 MKI A2A missile is wrong.

The primary A2A weapon is R77 which is an active radar seeking missile with range *108 miles*...

And AIM 120D with 130 miles, that comes only with raptor and F-15 I guess, Can you provide a link where Pakistan has AIM 120 D???


----------



## jagjitnatt

Indian Jatt said:


> I have never seen a su30 MK*I* with well finished shiny paints.(apart from just the 4 birds painted in tri colour)..still in looks I find it better than the F16 (shown above).
> 
> does anyone have some nice pictures of su30mki..apart from these old ones that we keep seeing ??thanks in advance.



Check this thread. It contains the best pics of Indian Aircraft.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...2112-indian-air-force-touching-sky-glory.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Peregrine

Hi


now that's what you call brand new


----------



## Peregrine




----------



## The Patriot

I have one question about the pilots of PAF since i hear this since my childhood and a lot on this forum and this thread. Its a little off the topic but as i am not educated at all in technicalities of air force i would be indebted if someone could enlighten me. 
They say that PAF pilots are the best and better than those of india. But my question is how come they be best when they dont have their hands on state of the art planes, advanced systems and training of these high tech systems. 

They may be best with what they fly but if they dont have advance fighters how could they be better than Indian pilots. 

Its like if someone is best at horse riding we assume he would be best at car racing too although he would not have car at all.

I dont intend to derail but it has been on mind. pl some experts reply.

thanks.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

The Patriot said:


> I have one question about the pilots of PAF since i hear this since my childhood and a lot on this forum and this thread. Its a little off the topic but as i am not educated at all in technicalities of air force i would be indebted if someone could enlighten me.
> They say that PAF pilots are the best and better than those of india. But my question is how come they be best when they dont have their hands on state of the art planes, advanced systems and training of these high tech systems.
> 
> They may be best with what they fly but if they dont have advance fighters how could they be better than Indian pilots.
> 
> Its like if someone is best at horse riding we assume he would be best at car racing too although he would not have car at all.
> 
> I dont intend to derail but it has been on mind. pl some experts reply.
> 
> thanks.



ACM or air combat maneuvering tactics were developed during the first world war and have stood the test of time. It all depends on energy management and out maneuvering the opponent to get behind him by exploiting your adversary's weakness. Nothing is undefeatable in this world.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jagjitnatt

The Patriot said:


> I have one question about the pilots of PAF since i hear this since my childhood and a lot on this forum and this thread. Its a little off the topic but as i am not educated at all in technicalities of air force i would be indebted if someone could enlighten me.
> They say that PAF pilots are the best and better than those of india. But my question is how come they be best when they dont have their hands on state of the art planes, advanced systems and training of these high tech systems.
> 
> They may be best with what they fly but if they dont have advance fighters how could they be better than Indian pilots.
> 
> Its like if someone is best at horse riding we assume he would be best at car racing too although he would not have car at all.
> 
> I dont intend to derail but it has been on mind. pl some experts reply.
> 
> thanks.



PAF pilots are good. But people tend to take it too far calling them the best. They were better in the old days. At that time India didn't have experienced pilots. Over time, India improved, and is now on par with RAF and USAF. PAF on the other hand got isolated in the past decade. Though they are still good, but they have had better days in the past. In the past they used to train extensively with the Americans and they had better quality planes. Indians on the other hand had mediocre planes.

The times have now turned.


----------



## Super Falcon

i think it is man behind the machine who will decide who is the best in air war both fighter jets are equally well matched


----------



## honour

Super Falcon said:


> i think it is man behind the machine who will decide who is the best in air war both fighter jets are equally well matched



i agree to to yaaar but we need to accept that su-30 is a better plane....but really the pilot will also matter...


----------



## Myth_buster_1

jagjitnatt said:


> PAF pilots are good. But people tend to take it too far calling them the best. They were better in the old days. At that time India didn't have experienced pilots. Over time, India improved, and is now on par with RAF and USAF. PAF on the other hand got isolated in the past decade. Though they are still good, but they have had better days in the past. In the past they used to train extensively with the Americans and they had better quality planes. Indians on the other hand had mediocre planes.
> 
> The times have now turned.



 What a self patting IAF bubble blowing fanboy.

Just because IAF can show off its new MKI in exercises and get appreciation for the machine does not mean IAF pilots are all of sudden as good as RAF and USAF which at the moment is only a fan boy dream and far away from the reality. 

PAF may have been sanctioned but their high standard of training still went on. Through out the 90s decade PAF participated with USN USAF RAF TUAF UAEAF KSAAF etc. Arabs used PAF instructors and pilots to fly their high tech combat aircrafts. 
On the other hand, only high tech military technologies can save IAF not the standard of pilots. *IAF standard of pilots improves with the technology not the skills that they possess. *

PAF pilot training being left behind is merely a remark out of jealousy and ignorance. Of course such comments are always expected by those who are brought up so narrow minded by their society. 



> "Another way in which the PAF satisfies this requirement is in the pursuit of excellence with regard to its combat echelons. Paradoxically, though, that pursuit is by its very nature an expensive procedure and there is a high wastage rate as pilots progress through the training system, with individuals being weeded out all the way along the line. *The end result is felt to be well worth the expense involved, however, and personal observations have certainly convinced the author that the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. *As to those , who are rated above average, they compare favourably to the very best in a host of western air arms. Standard of accuracy appear comparable to those of the west and may surpass them, one F-6 pilot of No. 15 Squadron having recently put 20 out of 25 shells through a banner in four successive passes. The author can vouch for this having inspected the banner at Kamra and even more remarkably, the pilot responsible for this impressive shooting was a 'frst tourist'."
> 
> (Lindsay Peacock. Journal: Air International, Vol 41. No 5)






> "*Overall the PAF are a highly professional air force* and *this is reflected in their high standards of instructions and flying training.*"
> 
> (Steve Bond commenting about PAF's flying training program. Journal: Air Forces Monthly, May 1990.)






> *Airforces Monthly*
> Article in the May 1993 issue (pages 46-47 by Sergey Vekhov)
> *
> An article in the May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable UK-based air defence magazine, written by a Russian aviation writer, Sergey Vekhov, for the first time in public, provided a first-hand account about the PAF's pilots:*
> 
> "As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the *Pakistan Air Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the world".* As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1997, "it leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far behind".






> Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998)
> 
> The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF, has *at least one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training.* The caliber of Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and *US Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professionals' during exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots). The IAF is in an unfortunate position: it lacks an advanced training (and multi-role combat aircraft*

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Mogambo

jagjitnatt said:


> PAF pilots are good. But people tend to take it too far calling them the best. They were better in the old days. At that time India didn't have experienced pilots. Over time, India improved, and is now on par with RAF and USAF. PAF on the other hand got isolated in the past decade. Though they are still good, but they have had better days in the past. In the past they used to train extensively with the Americans and they had better quality planes. Indians on the other hand had mediocre planes.
> 
> The times have now turned.



Yes, time have turned.

We are regularly taking part in air exercise with US, UK, France etc. 

Having evaluated the strength and weaknesses of F-16 with Republic of Singapore Air Force etc.


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> What a self patting IAF bubble blowing fanboy.
> 
> Just because IAF can show off its new MKI in exercises and get appreciation for the machine does not mean IAF pilots are all of sudden as good as RAF and USAF which at the moment is only a fan boy dream and far away from the reality.
> 
> PAF may have been sanctioned but their high standard of training still went on. Through out the 90s decade PAF participated with USN USAF RAF TUAF UAEAF KSAAF etc. Arabs used PAF instructors and pilots to fly their high tech combat aircrafts.
> On the other hand, only high tech military technologies can save IAF not the standard of pilots. *IAF standard of pilots improves with the technology not the skills that they possess. *
> 
> PAF pilot training being left behind is merely a remark out of jealousy and ignorance. Of course such comments are always expected by those who are brought up so narrow minded by their society.



hey man u r talking about 90's lets talk about 2000-10..we are the force with maximum no. of exercises in this decade...we had cope,indradhanush,vayushakti,parakram,vidyutprahar, in all these years contineously...


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> What a self patting IAF bubble blowing fanboy.
> 
> Just because IAF can show off its new MKI in exercises and get appreciation for the machine does not mean IAF pilots are all of sudden as good as RAF and USAF which at the moment is only a fan boy dream and far away from the reality.
> 
> PAF may have been sanctioned but their high standard of training still went on. Through out the 90s decade PAF participated with USN USAF RAF TUAF UAEAF KSAAF etc. Arabs used PAF instructors and pilots to fly their high tech combat aircrafts.
> On the other hand, only high tech military technologies can save IAF not the standard of pilots. *IAF standard of pilots improves with the technology not the skills that they possess. *
> 
> PAF pilot training being left behind is merely a remark out of jealousy and ignorance. Of course such comments are always expected by those who are brought up so narrow minded by their society.



this will help you......
Indian Air Force | Exercises [www.bharat-rakshak.com]


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> hey man u r talking about 90's lets talk about 2000-10..we are the force with maximum no. of exercises in this decade...we had cope,indradhanush,vayushakti,parakram,vidyutprahar, in all these years contineously...



well well well..

PAF Highmark exercise 2010 is more worth then all the IAF exercise you mentioned above. High MARK 2010 lasted for 2 months which involved all PAF combat fleet. And in july PAF F-16s will participate in US Red flag. 

and as for PAF not participating in multinational exercise... seriously i am shocked to know how narrow minded indians are about Pakistan. 


One of the first F-22 over seas exercise. 








USN F-14 one of the last over seas exercise.





do you want me to post some more pictures?

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Storm Force said:


> PAF and their pilots have not fired a single shot in anger for over 2 decades.
> 
> PAF and their pilots did not show up against IAF mirage2000 in Kargil.
> 
> PAF and their pilots have only just started to induct BVR concept nearly 2 decades after their indian counterparts.
> 
> ARE PAF pilots better trained, or better skilled ?????? NOT IMO not based on those above arguments.



Your arguments are baseless in mere jealousy and ignorance that you have developed. Your mentioned points have already been discussed in this forum a lot of times and the conclusion is, PAF pilots are superior to IAF.


----------



## anathema

Storm Force said:


> PAF and their pilots have not fired a single shot in anger for over 2 decades.
> 
> .



That is grossly incorrect. PAF pilots are undertaking active sorties in FATA region for war against terror. I guess you have not seen videos. For whatever is worth PAF has fired more shots in anger than IAF in the millenium. And also please dont make statements such as these -- you loose credibility , put forward some logical points if you need to debate.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jigs

Storm Force said:


> PAF and their pilots have not fired a single shot in anger for over 2 decades.
> 
> PAF and their pilots did not show up against IAF mirage2000 in Kargil.
> 
> PAF and their pilots have only just started to induct BVR concept nearly 2 decades after their indian counterparts.
> 
> ARE PAF pilots better trained, or better skilled ?????? NOT IMO not based on those above arguments.



Better skilled and better trained is highly different from being better equipped.


----------



## Storm Force

better equipped 

with what plz explain 18 f16/ 52


----------



## Jigs

I don't think you understood my post. I am not saying the Pakistani pilots are better equip the SU-30 MKI is a better aircraft. I am saying they are better trained and skilled. Even TuAF pilots have said the Pakistani pilots were very good at our Anatolian eagle.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Myth_buster_1

anathema said:


> That is grossly incorrect. PAF pilots are undertaking active sorties in FATA region for war against terror. I guess you have not seen videos. For whatever is worth PAF has fired more shots in anger than IAF in the millenium. And also please dont make statements such as these -- you loose credibility , put forward some logical points if you need to debate.



Just to mention... PAF also shot down up to 10 soviet/afgan aircrafts in 80s and in 2002 one IAF UAV was also shot down.


----------



## xMustiiej70

F16's can carry b61 nuclear bombs.
and carry SLAM-ER!
how 'bout that.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

xMustiiej70 said:


> F16's can carry b61 nuclear bombs.
> and carry SLAM-ER!
> how 'bout that.



Nope, Not the Pakistani F 16s.


----------



## Trichy

xMustiiej70 said:


> F16's can carry b61 nuclear bombs.
> and carry SLAM-ER!
> how 'bout that.



who give them the B61 NB???? Even CT they got with the new ones only


----------



## Creder

I think he is talking about they Turkish F16s and yes the turkish ones have B61 TNB

About PAF F16s they might have a chineese variant, i'll pass this one onto taimikhan

And slam-er again turkish F16s have em


----------



## Trichy

Creder said:


> I think he is talking about they Turkish F16s and yes the turkish ones have B61 TNB
> 
> About PAF F16s they might have a chineese variant, i'll pass this one onto taimikhan
> 
> And slam-er again turkish F16s have em



ya they have 40 B61 TNB under weapon Sharing program.

B61 aren't missiles, they're free-fall bombs to be strapped under F-16 or Tornados.

NATO nuclear sharing
Main article: Nuclear sharing
As of 2009, Turkey is one of five NATO member states which are part of the nuclear sharing policy of the alliance, together with Belgium, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands. A total of 90 B61 nuclear bombs are hosted at the Incirlik Air Base, 40 of which are allocated for use by the Turkish Air Force

The partners can not use the weapons unilaterally, got to get the arming codes from the USA first every time. The weapons themselves are also guarded by both sides, with an inner ring of US guards protecting and maintaining the bombs themselves, and the host nation (Turkey, Germany etc) providing an outer ring of further security guards.

The respective host nation airforces train the dropping of these tactical nukes with dummies (at least the German Airforce does).

The bombs continue to be owned by the USA, the host nations only maintain the "carriers".

The codes are pretty much only given out when the ICBMs have already started flying. And the US personnel will arm the missiles themselves. Pretty much the only thing the host nation does is, once the bomb is loaded onto the aircraft, to fly it to its target and drop it.


----------



## TOPGUN

Iam sure PAF f-16's have been modifed when needed to carry nukes it has been talked about alot in the past the west etc.. please do read up on it people.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

TOPGUN said:


> Iam sure PAF f-16's have been modifed when needed to carry nukes it has been talked about alot in the past the west etc.. please do read up on it people.



No, the EUMA prevents it. The PAF uses Mirage to carry their N bomb.


----------



## TaimiKhan

satishkumarcsc said:


> No, the EUMA prevents it. The PAF uses Mirage to carry their N bomb.



At the time, opposition to the sale of F-16s centered on Islamabad&#8217;s possible use of the aircraft as a primary means to deliver nuclear weapons.

Initially, the George H.W. Bush Administration argued that the aircraft, as delivered, were not &#8220;nuclear capable&#8221; and that Pakistan could not modify its F-16s to deliver nuclear weapons. In 1989, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Arthur Hughes testified:

In order to deliver a nuclear device with any reasonable degree of accuracy and safety, it first would be necessary to replace the entire wiring package in the aircraft. In addition to building a weapons carriage mount, one would also have to re-do the fire control computer, the stores management system, and mission computer software to allow the weapon to be dropped accurately and to redistribute weight and balance after release. We believe this capability far exceeds the state of the art in Pakistan and could only be accomplished with a major release of data and industrial equipment from the U.S.

P*ress reports, including articles in Der Spiegel and U.S. News & World Report, however, suggested that Pakistan was busily doing precisely what Hughes said it could not&#8212;reconfiguring its F-16s to carry nuclear weapons. Senator Glenn asked DCI Robert Gates about these press reports in 1992:

SEN. GLENN: How about delivery systems? Is there any evidence that Pakistan converted F-16s for possible nuclear delivery use?

MR. GATES: We know that they are&#8212;or we have information that suggests that they&#8217;re clearly interested in enhancing the ability of the F-16 to deliver weapons safely. But we don&#8217;t really have&#8212;they don&#8217;t require those changes, I don&#8217;t think, to deliver a weapon. We could perhaps provide some additional detail in a classified manner.

Asked the same question, Gates&#8217; successor, R. James Woolsey, also deferred to closed session.

Now&#8212;thanks to the wonders of FOIA&#8212;we know the White House told Congress that US intelligence believed Pakistan had reconfigured its F-16 fleet to deliver nuclear weapons.

The National Security Council submitted a Report to Congress on Status of China, India and Pakistan Nuclear and Ballistic Missile Programs to the House Foreign Affairs Committee on or before July 28, 1993. Obtained by the Federation of American Scientists, the NSC report concludes that &#8220;Pakistan probably would rely on its F-16 fighters&#8221; to deliver its small nuclear arsenal.*

*(The New York Times obtained Woolsey&#8217;s replies to questions by the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, which also affirm &#8220;Our best judgment right now would be [that Pakistan would use] the F-16&#8217;s&#8221; to deliver nuclear weapons.)*

http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/index.php?id=499


*We can deliver nukes with the F-16s, Mirages and A-5s. *

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## satishkumarcsc

TaimiKhan said:


> At the time, opposition to the sale of F-16s centered on Islamabads possible use of the aircraft as a primary means to deliver nuclear weapons.
> 
> Initially, the George H.W. Bush Administration argued that the aircraft, as delivered, were not nuclear capable and that Pakistan could not modify its F-16s to deliver nuclear weapons. In 1989, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Arthur Hughes testified:
> 
> In order to deliver a nuclear device with any reasonable degree of accuracy and safety, it first would be necessary to replace the entire wiring package in the aircraft. In addition to building a weapons carriage mount, one would also have to re-do the fire control computer, the stores management system, and mission computer software to allow the weapon to be dropped accurately and to redistribute weight and balance after release. We believe this capability far exceeds the state of the art in Pakistan and could only be accomplished with a major release of data and industrial equipment from the U.S.
> 
> P*ress reports, including articles in Der Spiegel and U.S. News & World Report, however, suggested that Pakistan was busily doing precisely what Hughes said it could notreconfiguring its F-16s to carry nuclear weapons. Senator Glenn asked DCI Robert Gates about these press reports in 1992:
> 
> SEN. GLENN: How about delivery systems? Is there any evidence that Pakistan converted F-16s for possible nuclear delivery use?
> 
> MR. GATES: We know that they areor we have information that suggests that theyre clearly interested in enhancing the ability of the F-16 to deliver weapons safely. But we dont really havethey dont require those changes, I dont think, to deliver a weapon. We could perhaps provide some additional detail in a classified manner.
> 
> Asked the same question, Gates successor, R. James Woolsey, also deferred to closed session.
> 
> Nowthanks to the wonders of FOIAwe know the White House told Congress that US intelligence believed Pakistan had reconfigured its F-16 fleet to deliver nuclear weapons.
> 
> The National Security Council submitted a Report to Congress on Status of China, India and Pakistan Nuclear and Ballistic Missile Programs to the House Foreign Affairs Committee on or before July 28, 1993. Obtained by the Federation of American Scientists, the NSC report concludes that Pakistan probably would rely on its F-16 fighters to deliver its small nuclear arsenal.*
> 
> *(The New York Times obtained Woolseys replies to questions by the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, which also affirm Our best judgment right now would be [that Pakistan would use] the F-16s to deliver nuclear weapons.)*
> 
> ArmsControlWonk: F-16s to Pakistan
> 
> 
> *We can deliver nukes with the F-16s, Mirages and A-5s. *



It is still not proven as of yet that PAF has rewired the F 16s for Nuclear launch capability. The PAF will rely heavily ofn Mirage and JF 17 for these strikes.


----------



## TaimiKhan

satishkumarcsc said:


> It is still not proven as of yet that PAF has rewired the F 16s for Nuclear launch capability. The PAF will rely heavily ofn Mirage and JF 17 for these strikes.



What else you and other out there don't know about PAF & its capabilities ?? 

Why it has to be proven ?? 

Do remember, the guys who have been mentioned above know more then us, that is why they are giving such statements, as they have info, that was the reason the CIA guy asked for a close door session to give a proper ans. 

Did you or the world knew when Babur Cruise missile was gonna come up ?? Or Ra'ad ALCM ?? Or even other missile systems ?? 

Does the world or you know we have Plutonium based nukes, is a nuke test compulsory to prove it to you or others ?? 

Same used to be said that Pakistan was bluffing on having nukes, but we did the bang and it was proven. 

Sometimes such things are deliberately kept secret for many reasons. 

PAF and its engineers have very good capacity and capability if it comes to that. 

But if you guys wish to be in denial, that is good.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hataf

satishkumarcsc said:


> It is still not proven as of yet that PAF has rewired the F 16s for Nuclear launch capability. The PAF will rely heavily ofn Mirage and JF 17 for these strikes.



is it that hard to do the wiring.
we have f-16 for more than 2 decades and you think that we still not yet mastered it.

but as per your media





 






now my question is if we are capable of modifying the harpoon 

does this means that we have modified the f-16's?????

now its not me its your media


----------



## SBD-3

Creder said:


> I think he is talking about they Turkish F16s and yes the turkish ones have B61 TNB
> 
> About PAF F16s they might have a chineese variant, i'll pass this one onto taimikhan
> 
> And slam-er again turkish F16s have em



PAF will have slammers.....and PAF F-16s don't need to carry "bombs" now. Raa'd is Nuke capable ALCM. PAF mirages are already compatible with Raa'd. and PAF will get slam'ers as a weapons package with BL-52.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

hataf said:


> is it that hard to do the wiring.
> we have f-16 for more than 2 decades and you think that we still not yet mastered it.
> 
> but as per your media
> 
> YouTube - Pak misusing US aid, weapons for Indian targets
> 
> 
> now my question is if we are capable of modifying the harpoon
> 
> now you think that we have not yet modified the f-16's



I never denied you mastering it. But have you done it in an F 16 is the question. If you can do it on a Mirage or A5 why cant you do it in an F 16?


----------



## xMustiiej70

Screw russians planes.
The new russian planes..
might have "some" specs but it never proven it.
and all other russians plane that proven themselves.
after WWII... were all failures.
F16 IS THE BEST AIRCRAFT.
AND SINCE HES BIG NINJA BROTHER F35 IS COMING.
IM IN LOVE.
I would put my Pen0r in the EXCHAUS


----------



## ice_man

what people here don't seem to understand is that no country CAN modify the F-16s reason being that wherever in the world the F-16s are based US sends in its "technicians" as part of the F-16 deal! the reason is to monitor that no f-16 is given to an "enemy state" or no F-16 is modified! 

hence reconfiguration of previous f-16s or current block 52s would be impossible! without US knowing about it!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Sapper

Dear,

Since i am an engineer myself, I see two possibilities.

1. Either configure/change the F16's Fire-Control computer to deliver your commands, re-do the wiring and design your own launch port. or
2. Configure the Weapon itself to accept the existing set of command codes.

Option 2 seems easier, doesn't it.

Our F16's are already wired for LGB's, why not use the same command codes to fire/release a home-made nuke.

Regards,
Sapper


----------



## thunder rules

block 52 is no doubt comparable to indian mki..


----------



## hal-fgfa

thunder rules said:


> block 52 is no doubt comparable to indian mki..



in which way its compareble

*radar range??
payload capicity??
max speed ???
missiles???
range of flight????*


----------



## Rain

this thread went along nicely, but as it happen often, it got of the trek, i try again to bring it to main theme( If i amy succeed).
MKIian repeated often tht MKI has greater radar range~350 km for scaning and for engaging/targeting with R77 a range of 150 km where as F16 block 52hav scan range of 300 km with AIM 120 C a range of 110 km. thus they then show tht MKI will have first shot opportunity. I am not a PAF man yet i disagree with it. As i know, Target and Scaning ranges are strong functionof RCS, MKI ranges are ment for 3 m of RCS target, F 16 has a RCS less thn 1 metercube. where as MKI has more thn 3 metercube even after using RAMs. soR77 range to target/engage F 16 with be reduced to nearly 100km but for AIM 120 C the range will remain almost the same. thus game is evenly poised ( may be thts why US is not selling 120 D to Pakistan-it will change the balance in favour of F 16 by a large margin). If I am WRONG, I will be happy being corrected!

Regards.


----------



## deckingraj

thunder rules said:


> block 52 is no doubt comparable to indian mki..





hal-fgfa said:


> in which way its compareble
> 
> *radar range??
> payload capicity??
> max speed ???
> missiles???
> range of flight????*



Guys please be realistic... MKI is best in South Asia and that's a fact Period... However when it comes to war there is nothing like 1-o-1 scenario...

MKI is no doubt the best but is not invincible..Advantages that it has over F-16 can be minimized or nullified with use of Awacs, strike formations and other tactics that are out there....However being a better machine it would have higher probability of coming out as a winner because tactics and counter tactics are anybody's guess...One thing is for sure that MKI is a headache for our adversaries...


----------



## deckingraj

Rain said:


> this thread went along nicely, but as it happen often, it got of the trek, i try again to bring it to main theme( If i amy succeed).
> MKIian repeated often tht MKI has greater radar range~350 km for scaning and for engaging/targeting with R77 a range of 150 km where as F16 block 52hav scan range of 300 km with AIM 120 C a range of 110 km. thus they then show tht MKI will have first shot opportunity. I am not a PAF man yet i disagree with it. As i know, Target and Scaning ranges are strong functionof RCS, MKI ranges are ment for 3 m of RCS target, F 16 has a RCS less thn 1 metercube. where as MKI has more thn 3 metercube even after using RAMs. soR77 range to target/engage F 16 with be reduced to nearly 100km but for AIM 120 C the range will remain almost the same. thus game is evenly poised ( may be thts why US is not selling 120 D to Pakistan-it will change the balance in favour of F 16 by a large margin). If I am WRONG, I will be happy being corrected!
> 
> Regards.



I am not a military expert by any stretch of Imagination however i can see a logicl error in your post...Mind it i can be 100&#37; wrong...

This is the formula to calculate Radar Equation



where
* Pt = transmitter power
* Gt = gain of the transmitting antenna
* Ar = effective aperture (area) of the receiving antenna
* &#963; = radar cross section, or scattering coefficient, of the target
* F = pattern propagation factor
* Rt = distance from the transmitter to the target
* Rr = distance from the target to the receiver.


In other words Radar Cross Section is not the only factor in finding out the target...


----------



## honour

deckingraj said:


> I am not a military expert by any stretch of Imagination however i can see a logicl error in your post...Mind it i can be 100% wrong...
> 
> This is the formula to calculate Radar Equation
> 
> 
> 
> where
> * Pt = transmitter power
> * Gt = gain of the transmitting antenna
> * Ar = effective aperture (area) of the receiving antenna
> * &#963; = radar cross section, or scattering coefficient, of the target
> * F = pattern propagation factor
> * Rt = distance from the transmitter to the target
> * Rr = distance from the target to the receiver.
> 
> 
> In other words Radar Cross Section is not the only factor in finding out the target...



thank you for this usefull post...

but i feel there is no need to discuss this thread as we all know su-30mki is a much better plane...and is considered as a 4.5 gen plane by the American institute of defense analysis.... yaar is has defeated eurofighter typhoon in dog fights held in germany...recently...


----------



## Myth_buster_1

hal-fgfa said:


> in which way its compareble
> 
> *radar range??
> payload capicity??
> max speed ???
> missiles???
> range of flight????*



In dense electronic warfare environment no radar can utilize its full instrumental range so the MKI longer range advantage dramatically falls to medium range. Radar locks or tracks can be evaded at longer distance through electronic warfare and tactics. But Indians like to play these kind of silly mine is bigger then yours game on papers. In reality things are quite different then specs. 
Without talking about the future like 5-10 years from now The PAF AMRAAM has clear advantage over russian counterparts. 

On paper MKI is better but depending on who has better tactics will be the main result of both fighters. IAF has spec advantage while PAF has tactics advantage.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> thank you for this usefull post...
> 
> but i feel there is no need to discuss this thread as we all know su-30mki is a much better plane...and is considered as a 4.5 gen plane by the American institute of defense analysis.... yaar is has defeated eurofighter typhoon in dog fights held in germany...recently...



butaa yaara then dont bother replying here again if you think its useless to debate here. 
and yaar one more thing. Which fanboy dream are you talking about a EF getting defeated by MKI in a exercise?


----------



## deckingraj

Growler said:


> In dense electronic warfare environment no radar can utilize its full instrumental range so the MKI longer range advantage dramatically falls to medium range. Radar locks or tracks can be evaded at longer distance through electronic warfare and tactics. But Indians like to play these kind of silly mine is bigger then yours game on papers. In reality things are quite different then specs.
> Without talking about the future like 5-10 years from now The PAF AMRAAM has clear advantage over russian counterparts.
> 
> *On paper MKI is better but depending on who has better tactics will be the main result of both fighters.*



You are absolutely right on the bolded part...However




> In dense electronic warfare environment no radar can utilize its full instrumental range so the MKI longer range advantage dramatically falls to medium range



Won't the same be true for F-16???



> But Indians like to play these kind of silly mine is bigger then yours game on papers



I think this issue is across board...


----------



## Sunila

> Growler
> 
> In dense electronic warfare environment no radar can utilize its full instrumental range so the MKI longer range advantage dramatically falls to medium range. Radar locks or tracks can be evaded at longer distance through electronic warfare and tactics. But Indians like to play these kind of silly mine is bigger then yours game on papers. In reality things are quite different then specs.
> Without talking about the future like 5-10 years from now The PAF AMRAAM has clear advantage over russian counterparts.
> 
> On paper MKI is better but depending on who has better tactics will be the main result of both fighters. IAF has spec advantage while PAF has tactics advantage.



thats a point in an environment with lot of VHF noise and jamming it reamins to be seen how these paper tigers will perform..


----------



## Rain

thanks for putting formula here. it shows Range is Proportional to 4th root of RCS thus in principle MKI and F 16 will have almost the same range for engagements.so it settles Range issue aint it?


----------



## SpArK

Guys.......... details more of BVR capabilities and ranges of both aircrafts please!!!!


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> butaa yaara then dont bother replying here again if you think its useless to debate here.
> and yaar one more thing. Which fanboy dream are you talking about a EF getting defeated by MKI in a exercise?


brother...it was told in joint statement by RAF and IAF that
&#8220;The operational part of the &#8216;Exercise Indradhanush-2007&#8242; began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties&#8230; The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI&#8217;s observed superior manoeuvrings in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon&#8217;s agility in the air.but the exercise finally concluded with su-30mki scoring more kills than tornado and euro-fighter due to its high maneuverability and BAR radar..which were used first time against a foreign opponent..but no doubt euro fighter was instrumental for its BVR and missile accuracy capability...

Jack bruney ,a pilot in the exercise admitted on a video on you tube that they will require the caesar radar so as to defeat su030mki......


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

I just saw a thread SU 30 VS F 35........
In end accordin to indian members SU-30 won.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> brother...it was told in joint statement by RAF and IAF that
> The operational part of the Exercise Indradhanush-2007&#8242; began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKIs observed superior manoeuvrings in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoons agility in the air.but the exercise finally concluded with su-30mki scoring more kills than tornado and euro-fighter due to its high maneuverability and BAR radar..which were used first time against a foreign opponent..but no doubt euro fighter was instrumental for its BVR and missile accuracy capability...
> 
> Jack bruney ,a pilot in the exercise admitted on a video on you tube that they will require the caesar radar so as to defeat su030mki......



and the sources for this is a indian fanboy who has too much time on blogs?


----------



## thunder rules

block 52 is much much improved variant of f 16 and its considered as 4.5 gen as well..


----------



## thunder rules

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I just saw a thread SU 30 VS F 35........
> In end accordin to indian members SU-30 won.



 i just dont blv their ignorance..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> and the sources for this is a indian fanboy who has too much time on blogs?



Brother the source is official INDRADHANUSH site.....i provided the link earlier also but some "death guy'" said it wasn't opening as well as some "samika" said so....i just copied the content from there...
also plz check back the thread u will definitely find it....


----------



## honour

thunder rules said:


> i just dont blv their ignorance..



agree now this is a joke ...i also read a post that called j-10b equivalent to f-35 II...so lets ignore these stupid jokes....


----------



## SpArK




----------



## thunder rules

honour said:


> agree now this is a joke ...i also read a post that called j-10b equivalent to f-35 II...so lets ignore these stupid jokes....



its not only abt joke its abt ur superiority complex and over confidence.. f 16 a/b are 4 gen and inferior to mki no doubt but block 52 are improved far improved then earlier versions and its termed as 4.5 gen as u people coin it for ur mki.. yes may be their might be few areas where ur mki take the lead but over all block 52 is enough potent to be comparable to ur mki.. small difference are alwaz der. but those are covered with up gradations with the passage of times..


----------



## MZUBAIR

satishkumarcsc said:


> Nope, Not the Pakistani F 16s.



PAF F-16's are not for NUKE operations or role.

Mirage & JF-17 Sqds are dedicated for Nuke Operations.


----------



## MZUBAIR

Doesnt matter with these for PAF now......coz
PAF have SAAB and later Chinees Early Warning airplanes have 400 + tracking n deduction ranges (exact position) and data can be transfared to Mirage and JF-17. 
And plz dont say that AWE&C can be destroyed............its impossible coz there would be dozen of AC's and number of ground support aresenals to protect them from aireal attack



> Comparison with AIM-120 AMRAAM
> [edit] Range
> The R-77's main advantage over the AIM-120 AMRAAM is in range and maneuverability. The longer range is because the R-77 is a larger 200 mm vs 178 mm (8 vs 7 in), heavier 175 vs 150 kg (386 vs 335 lb) missile than the AMRAAM and contains more propellant. Like most AAM weapons, the claimed range is for a non-maneuvering target, at a high altitude, and probably on a head on aspect with a respectable closing rate. Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range, but the same applies to the AMRAAM[citation needed].
> 
> [edit] Maneuverability
> The missile's maneuverability relies on the lattice work fins at the rear. The R-77's overall aerodynamic configuration is more efficient at high speed and high angles of attack than the conventional deltas used on the AIM-120 and most other missiles. This reduces the loss of energy when the R-77 is chasing a maneuvering target[5]. However, near Mach 1, oblique shock waves can substantially increase drag of the lattice fins and reverse their advantage [6]. If the missile was fired at a range long enough for it to decelerate to low Mach speeds, it would deplete its energy very quickly while maneuvering. The increased drag would also hamper the carrying aircraft at certain speeds unless the fins were folded or the missiles were stored internally. Nonetheless, the weapon is reported to be able to handle a target maneuvering at up to 12g,[7] a substantially higher rate than any manned fighter.


R-77 benefit over AIM is also the drawback in respect of speed.


----------



## thunder rules

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF F-16's are not for NUKE operations or role.
> 
> Mirage & JF-17 Sqds are dedicated for Nuke Operations.



i dont have much info regarding this but i remember i heard our earlier air cheif tanveer mehmood that paf can modify f 16 for this role as well it was when paf received 4 f 16s from usa back in 2008.. youtube is not working other wise i would have shown u.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> Doesnt matter with these for PAF now......coz
> PAF have SAAB and later Chinees Early Warning airplanes have 400 + tracking n deduction ranges (exact position) and data can be transfared to Mirage and JF-17.
> And plz dont say that AWE&C can be destroyed............its impossible coz there would be dozen of AC's and number of ground support aresenals to protect them from aireal attack
> 
> 
> R-77 benefit over AIM is also the drawback in respect of speed.





> the Su 30 mkI has bvr's that have a longer range than the future sd 10 of paf.
> 
> *The max range of the russian bvr is around 100 km---the max range of sd 10 is around 60 km----the 90 &#37; kill range of russian bvr is around 50--60 km---the 90% kill range of sd 10 is around 30 to 40 km if it is.
> 
> What I am trying to share is that the su 30 can launch a volley of missiles at the target way beyong the 90% kill range of sd 10---it is simple physics now---don't you guys study physics in your engr class. The rules of engagement have changed when your missile can kill from a longer distance than mine.
> 
> Again----to simplify---the su 30 is shooting with a .50 calibre barret ( where .50 has scored regular kills at 2000 yds and beyond )----the jf 17 with sd 10 is more like a .338 lapua round----scoring kills at 1000 plus yds or regular basis maybe 1250 on a rare occassion ).
> 
> What the reader needs to understand is that the su 30 can launch a volley of missiles at one or two, three or four targets at the same time and even before it gets in the kill range of the sd 10, the su 30 can turn around and leave the battle field---if 4 jf 17 in one sortie---they will have two missiles each locked on to the---.
> 
> The jf 17 would be trying to save its life---it cannot launch its missiles from max distance---because they will be useless. The jf 17 will be busy in breaking the missile lock---.
> 
> Now flying over its own territory, if the paf have some nice decent quality air craft with jammers then maybe it might work or maybe it maynot work.
> 
> The enemy has a numerical superiority---the enemy has a technical superiority---the enemy has the support of many.
> 
> So what do we do now---.
> 
> Major weapons systems are purchased for show---they are purchased to make a political statement---they are purchased to make the enemy come to the table to make peace. The non conventional weapons and missiles systems did create those circumstances, but our lack of air superiority was and is our weakest link.
> 
> We have developed a belief that we are okay as long as we have weapons that can bloody the enemy's nose---well that is a bad bad strategy and gameplan. You never know how the opponent will react after a bloodied nose---you have thrown the ball in the enemy court and let the enemy decide what to do.
> 
> We ough to have weapons systems that can smash the enemy's pride---bring it down to its knees momentarily and make him think---peace is better than war.
> 
> We have two items worthy of that---our missiles system---and our non conventional weapons---but we don't have a third leg to stand upon. That is the air force---if our air force was better equipped years ago---all our peace deals would have been signed----we would have not been at the brink of war---india and pakistan would have been onto bigger and better things in the life of their citizens.
> 
> Again the purpose of any major weapons system is to bring about peace---jf 17 doesnot do that. It will be a wonderful aircraft in its category---no doubt about it*.



courtesy MASTAN KHAN

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/32359-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-128.html#post863288


----------



## MZUBAIR

thunder rules said:


> i dont have much info regarding this but i remember i heard our earlier air cheif tanveer mehmood that paf can modify f 16 for this role as well it was when paf received 4 f 16s from usa back in 2008.. youtube is not working other wise i would have shown u.



No prob........
JF-17 n Mirage r enough to do job........
dont forget Raad can be fired from F-16..........Raad is capable to take Nuclear warhead


----------



## deckingraj

Rain said:


> thanks for putting formula here. it shows Range is Proportional to 4th root of RCS thus in principle MKI and F 16 will have almost the same range for engagements.so it settles Range issue aint it?



Well what i was trying to point out that there are other factors involved as well...You are right when you say Range is inversely proportional to RCS however there are other factors that involved in increasing or decreasing range apart from RCS....

If you are saying that other factors involved in radar of both the fighters are same then your assumption about range is correct.....Do you know about other values???


----------



## MZUBAIR

BENNY said:


> courtesy MASTAN KHAN
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/32359-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-128.html#post863288



Wt u wana say, I havent compred SD-10 with R-77 but with AIM.
Secvond I said there is no more edge of radar MKI as we r going to equip with SAAB and later Chinees Early Warning airplanes have 400 + tracking n deduction ranges.

And here we r discussing PAF F-16 Block 52 not JF


----------



## thunder rules

MZUBAIR said:


> No prob........
> JF-17 n Mirage r enough to do job........
> dont forget Raad can be fired from F-16..........Raad is capable to take Nuclear warhead



yeah our air force inventory is fine looking at the current economical crises and international pressure paf is doing right.. we have developed quite a remarkable amount of nuclear warheads which will force enemy to stay in her limits . the only i wish paf should have at least 50+ latest 4.5 gen western fighters .. which will automatically balance the power.


----------



## Manticore

*MISSILES*-- posts 1984 , 1985

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...tirole-fighter-thread-3-a-133.html#post868975

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

 *paf f-16 mlu specifications *

3 qoutes by meanbird in different threads



mean_bird said:


> Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries.
> 
> Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.
> 
> Let me try to explain
> 
> *MLU-3 in made up of the following.*
> 
> Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
> Integration of anti radiation missile capability
> Integration of target designator system
> Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
> Integration of the Link-16 system
> Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
> Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
> Introduction of NVG compatible helmets
> 
> Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,
> 
> *M4 tape contains in addition to above:*
> 
> Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
> Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
> Integration of SNIPER targeting pods
> 
> 
> *Here's what PAF is getting: *
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B *Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification* and *Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement* kits consisting of:
> 
> APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
> Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
> AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
> Have Quick I/II Radios;
> Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
> 
> SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
> Reconnaissance pod capability;
> 
> Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
> 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
> Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
> 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
> 
> 
> So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen).
> 
> Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard
> 
> 
> Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
> http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf







> Falcon Star upgrade for the airframe life





> *PAF F-16s will be brought up to blk 52 standard minus 3 things *
> 
> 1. there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time;
> 2. there are no engine improvements; and,
> 3. there are no improvements to payload capacity
> 
> It has other things that come with blk 52 like APG-68v9 radar, JHMCS, JDAM, AGM-84 Harpoon capability, etc

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## satishkumarcsc

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF F-16's are not for NUKE operations or role.
> 
> Mirage & JF-17 Sqds are dedicated for Nuke Operations.



Thats what I was telling to everyone. It would be blatant violation of EUMA.


----------



## SomeGuy

BENNY said:


> courtesy MASTAN KHAN
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/32359-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-128.html#post863288



Okay, on paper R-77 max range might be 100km under perfect conditions but in reality it's probably closer to 80km and to be effective will have to be fired at a closer range - probably 40-50km.
Firing from max range won't be effective at all due to the grid fins.

SD-10 max range is about 70km - don't know how effective it will be when fired from 40-50km away (probably still good) but the point is that the PAF pilot will have a chance to see the MKI and fire back!


----------



## ZARVAN ALI

Sir can anbody tell me whats the latest strength of our Air Force I mean How many planes do we have and how many new planes r we getting. By the way i am a new member


----------



## jagjitnatt

SomeGuy said:


> Okay, on paper R-77 max range might be 100km under perfect conditions but in reality it's probably closer to 80km


Correct. But the same applies to SD-10 and AMRAAM too. These missile reach these max ranges only at a very high altitude at a normal wind resistance, when the two planes are head on at a velocity of almost 1 mach.


> and to be effective will have to be fired at a closer range - probably 40-50km.


R-77 has an effective range of about 60 kms. 2 R-77s launched at 60kms have a 90% kill rate.


> Firing from max range won't be effective at all due to the grid fins.


It will be effective. The lattice fins don't affect the performance, they just add a whole lot more maneuverability to the missile. The max range of the missile was calculated by taking the lattice factor into account.


> SD-10 max range is about 70km - don't know how effective it will be when fired from 40-50km away (probably still good) but the point is that the PAF pilot will have a chance to see the MKI and fire back!


We have no official sources for the range of SD-10, although people expect it to be a 60-70 km missile. So its effective range would be somewhere around 45-50 km max. And its maneuverability would be lesser than R-77 due to planar fins.

The JF-17 pilot can get a chance to fire back, but if the MKI pilot turns back, the SD-10 wouldn't be able to catch up, the boosters would run out, but the 15 km advantage that R-77 has will be able to reach the JF-17.


----------



## thunder rules

ZARVAN ALI said:


> Sir can anbody tell me whats the latest strength of our Air Force I mean How many planes do we have and how many new planes r we getting. By the way i am a new member



our air force is quite ordinary as half of the fleet is very old and seeks immediate replacements the best we have so far is f 16's around 45+ and pakistan is purchasing additional 18+14 which would be great to enhance the strength of paf. on the other hand we have thunders which is quite potent 4 gen fighter which will be used to replace old mirages and f7's


----------



## maverick1977

Even lets suppose R77 and SD10 have the same range and both MKI and JF17 fire their respective missiles at the same time, MKI has a huge chance of outrunning the missile using its TVC. the change of directoin by MKI to be opposite of missile direction will be very fast and it can outrun the missile easily... 

However, real combat scenarios are different. radar detecting the opponents based on their adversary size and then getting a firing tone, all are strictly un realistic to predict until pitching in a battle... 

But on paper MKI can outclass any PAF plane easily... i guess it comes down to good pilot and how good they are with there nerves... Are they cowards of real brave men, thats when the real test comes..


----------



## honour

maverick1977 said:


> Even lets suppose R77 and SD10 have the same range and both MKI and JF17 fire their respective missiles at the same time, MKI has a huge chance of outrunning the missile using its TVC. the change of directoin by MKI to be opposite of missile direction will be very fast and it can outrun the missile easily...
> 
> However, real combat scenarios are different. radar detecting the opponents based on their adversary size and then getting a firing tone, all are strictly un realistic to predict until pitching in a battle...
> 
> But on paper MKI can outclass any PAF plane easily... i guess it comes down to good pilot and how good they are with there nerves... Are they cowards of real brave men, thats when the real test comes..



MKI is better in each aspect ...it is a heavy plane with lots of advanced features over F-16.....
Well i think F-16 block 52 can challenge it to some point but JF-17......no way, it will be happy hunting for Su-30mki's....
even J-10 wont be a match........
F-16...........................v/s..................MIRAGE 2000-H/SU-30MKI
MIG-29KUB.................v/s.................. j-10
JF-17..........................v/s...................LCA-TEJAS


still PAF will prove deadly due to its F-16 block 52 airbeasts.....they are very beautiful birds.....


----------



## deckingraj

honour said:


> still PAF will prove deadly due to its F-16 block 52 airbeasts.....they are very beautiful birds.....



But how about numbers...They will also play a big role...we already have more than 100 MKI's as of *NOW*....


----------



## Myth_buster_1

deckingraj said:


> But how about numbers...They will also play a big role...we already have more than 100 MKI's as of *NOW*....



And will IAF attack PAK with all its 250 MKI at once? India has another problem, CHINA. I am sure IAF new strategy will be to reserve its stocks in case it has to fight 2 front war at same time. Indian military has got to take China in account.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> MKI is better in each aspect ...it is a heavy plane with lots of advanced features over F-16.....
> Well i think F-16 block 52 can challenge it to some point but JF-17......no way, it will be happy hunting for Su-30mki's....
> even J-10 wont be a match........
> F-16...........................v/s..................MIRAGE 2000-H/SU-30MKI
> MIG-29KUB.................v/s.................. j-10
> JF-17..........................v/s...................LCA-TEJAS
> 
> 
> still PAF will prove deadly due to its F-16 block 52 airbeasts.....they are very beautiful birds.....



I hope even IAF has same undermining its enemy attitude just like you. Thats what happened in 65 and 71 war. IAF thought they would be able to achieve total air superiority over pakistan within few days of war because it had huge numerical superiority and technical as well. Ironically, the next generation Mig-21 failed to perform in 65 and 71 to its potential.
And can you enlighten us how J-10B will not be a match to MKI?


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> I hope even IAF has same undermining its enemy attitude just like you. Thats what happened in 65 and 71 war. IAF thought they would be able to achieve total air superiority over pakistan within few days of war because it had huge numerical superiority and technical as well. Ironically, the next generation Mig-21 failed to perform in 65 and 71 to its potential.
> And can you enlighten us how J-10B will not be a match to MKI?



Its too easy.....by the time of induction...2014...we will be having israel AESA radars in Su-30mki...with Nirbhay cruse missile,Brahmos missile,and Astra missile along with R-79ps...

we both know combination of Israel and French avionics are really damn deadly<that's why you are trying for JF-17upgradation> 
also we both know Chinese avionics are not as reliable as western avionics...
moreover to learn about Mig-21's performance Check the thread by Mr.windj about that flying coffin ...there are some links in my posts which will help you


----------



## deckingraj

Though it was not intended for you...However thanks for taking a stab at it...now let me elaborate more on it...



Growler said:


> And will IAF attack PAK with all its 250 MKI at once?



First of all we do not have 250 MKI's...As of now we have a little above 100...So lets stick to that number...Having said it the way IAF will not engage all its fighters at once the same way PAF will not engage all its fighters at once...With higher number of fighters and endurance of MKI just imagine the number of sorties MKI's can do vs paltry some of F-16's block 52....

Having said it you would have support of SAMS and Air defence but this is surely more than bit of concern when it comes to PAF doctorine of denying IAF Air Superiority....

P.S : I hope you will not take it as D!CK measuring competition and will reply accordingly




> India has another problem, CHINA. I am sure IAF new strategy will be to reserve its stocks in case it has to fight 2 front war at same time. Indian military has got to take China in account.



You are right here...We would have to reserve stocks but same isn't that true for any country involved in war??? Also as per you what would be the ratio of these reserves?...when will this reserve come into picture...From Day 1 or when the war is getting a bit more bloody with Pakistan getting some setbacks??? There are hell lot of things and i would like to see your opinion on it...


----------



## Storm Force

Pakistanis seem to be hedging their bets that in the next big INDO PAK dust up that China will open a second front to split the Indian military.

If Paks think China will assist directly wants to stop Russia getting involved. or in deed usa. 

Cant rely on PLAAF to aid the PAF against 250 su30mki


----------



## deckingraj

Storm Force said:


> Pakistanis seem to be hedging their bets that in the next big INDO PAK dust up that China will open a second front to split the Indian military.
> 
> If Paks think China will assist directly wants to stop Russia getting involved. or in deed usa.
> 
> Cant rely on PLAAF to aid the PAF against 250 su30mki



You are right however from our war strategy perspective we will always keep reserves for China...Even if China engages or not we will keep our resources only for Eastern Border in case there is any misadventure...So bottom line some percentage of our resources would not be used against Pakistan if god forbids war break out...Do you agree...

If you do then Growler asked a very valid question...I did answer but please feel free to correct/validate my understanding...


----------



## thunder rules

why the hell indians are so over confident.. we have witness in india's numerical superiority in past as well.. india has been 8-9 times superior on quantitative basis but yet in past our weaker forces managed to become nightmare for 8 times bigger army. today every thing has been changed Pakistan has more powerful then it was ever in past.. india capabilities have far improved as well . pakistan is small country and it has less area to cover unlike india which 4 times bigger geographically so its needs are bigger as well.. but today we are an nuclear power and india cant even imaging to invade us in any kind of unfair means only it can play with u diplomatically which they use to do. and just keep give us threats of their superior quantity . other wise they dont have enough morals and guts to face pakistan bravery . if tomorrow pakistan gets hand on some 60-70 western 4.5 fighters then these indian will automatically will come on track.. 

pakistan zindabad.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jagjitnatt

thunder rules said:


> why the hell indians are so over confident.. we have witness in india's numerical superiority in past as well.. india has been 8-9 times superior on quantitative basis but yet in past our weaker forces managed to become nightmare for 8 times bigger army. today every thing has been changed Pakistan has more powerful then it was ever in past.. india capabilities have far improved as well . pakistan is small country and it has less area to cover unlike india which 4 times bigger geographically so its needs are bigger as well.. but today we are an nuclear power and india cant even imaging to invade us in any kind of unfair means only it can play with u diplomatically which they use to do. and just keep give us threats of their superior quantity . other wise they dont have enough morals and guts to face pakistan bravery . if tomorrow pakistan gets hand on some 60-70 western 4.5 fighters then these indian will automatically will come on track..
> 
> pakistan zindabad.



India always had a numerical advantage, but what bugged India in the past was that Indian planes were not quality wise superior to PAF's. PAF enjoyed planes life F86 Sabre and F104 which Indian's never had. Indians used Gnats and Hunters, that too later on, and even these were not technically superior but rather on par with F86.

Now though the scenario has changed. Today IAF has better planes and more planes and can take on PAF in a better way.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Trichy

thunder rules said:


> why the hell indians are so over confident.. we have witness in india's numerical superiority in past as well.. india has been 8-9 times superior on quantitative basis but yet in past our weaker forces managed to become nightmare for 8 times bigger army. today every thing has been changed Pakistan has more powerful then it was ever in past.. india capabilities have far improved as well . pakistan is small country and it has less area to cover unlike india which 4 times bigger geographically so its needs are bigger as well.. but today we are an nuclear power and india cant even imaging to invade us in any kind of unfair means only it can play with u diplomatically which they use to do. and just keep give us threats of their superior quantity . other wise they dont have enough morals and guts to face pakistan bravery . if tomorrow *pakistan gets hand on some 60-70 western 4.5 fighters* then these indian will automatically will come on track..
> 
> pakistan zindabad.



If you ware induct 4.5 Gen Fighter we already have dates for the 5 Gen Fighter, we always 1 step ahead now But you not even have decide to buy which fighter till now??


----------



## arsalan shafique

I wana KNOW that How to DelEte AccOuNt ON DeFEnce ForUM???????
IT has StARtEd to SuCk Now.........BeCoz Ov SucH UselEss TOpICS........kIndLy NAme THIS ForUm ......................."WORLD's USELESS TOPIC FORUM"!!!!!
PLEAseeeeeeeee..........................StoP MAkINg Such ******* THReAds!!!!
Like Zardari's act Of UNsanIty!!!!!
N MAnY OTHErs R DeRE!!!!!!


----------



## KS

thunder rules said:


> pakistan is small country and it has less area to cover unlike india which 4 times bigger geographically so its needs are bigger as well..



Wo wo wo...i ve seen many Pakistanis soothing themselves telling these.Let me give a reality check.

Wat u say is true only if the enemy has come in to Indian mainland (Southern,eastern,Central states) and we have to defend our country from them. like in Iraq.

But in the case of *Indo-Pak war,it will be fought on the border states only.*Even if the IA has the capability to enter the Pakistani mainland(due to the narrowness of Pakistani geography) *Paksitani corps will never realistically go beyond the border states of Punjab,Rajasthan and Gujarat.*
*And so we only have as much territory as u to defend...Not more...*
For internal problem we have some of the largest paramilitaries in the world.




thunder rules said:


> other wise they dont have enough morals and guts to face pakistan bravery .



Yeah dude we all saw wat that bravery could do in 65,71,84,99.



thunder rules said:


> if tomorrow pakistan gets hand on some 60-70 western 4.5 fighters then these indian will automatically will come on track..



Please be realistic...ur talking abt 4.5 gen fighters not some damn lollipops that u go to a store ,buy 70 of them , pay 300 rs and come out.

and whos going to pay for them..?


----------



## kashith

thunder rules said:


> why the hell indians are so over confident.. we have witness in india's numerical superiority in past as well.. india has been 8-9 times superior on quantitative basis but yet in past our weaker forces managed to become nightmare for 8 times bigger army. today every thing has been changed Pakistan has more powerful then it was ever in past.. india capabilities have far improved as well . pakistan is small country and it has less area to cover unlike india which 4 times bigger geographically so its needs are bigger as well.. but today we are an nuclear power and india cant even imaging to invade us in any kind of unfair means only it can play with u diplomatically which they use to do. and just keep give us threats of their superior quantity . other wise they dont have enough morals and guts to face pakistan bravery . if tomorrow pakistan gets hand on some 60-70 western 4.5 fighters then these indian will automatically will come on track..
> 
> pakistan zindabad.



India has to keep China in mind as well.Be sure if this was not the case,then we would have deployed our entire army on our western border instead of deploying them in the east.In fact this was the reason that in 1965 Pakistan was able to stand up against India.In any case,MKI is deployed in larger numbers in the east as compared to west where the Mig-29 will play the air superiority role..


----------



## notorious_eagle

deckingraj said:


> You are right however from our war strategy perspective we will always keep reserves for China...Even if China engages or not we will keep our resources only for Eastern Border in case there is any misadventure...So bottom line some percentage of our resources would not be used against Pakistan if god forbids war break out...Do you agree...



Indeed they wouldnt be but the cream assets of the Indian Armed Forces will be deployed against Pakistan. Let me repeat something that has been repeated by senior members many times before. Pakistan Army is under no illusion that during a state of war China will open another front. The Chinese have made it clear that in case of a Indo-Pak War, the Chinese will provide economic/military assistance but Pakistan will have to fight the war on its own. If you look at the past, India was superior to Pakistan in terms of numbers and quality but Pakistan still managed to fight India on its own without any external help.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

deckingraj said:


> First of all we do not have 250 MKI's...As of now we have a little above 100...So lets stick to that number...Having said it the way IAF will not engage all its fighters at once the same way PAF will not engage all its fighters at once...With higher number of fighters and endurance of MKI just imagine the number of sorties MKI's can do vs paltry some of F-16's block 52....
> 
> Having said it you would have support of SAMS and Air defence but this is surely more than bit of concern when it comes to PAF doctorine of denying IAF Air Superiority....




I was referring to future PAF IAF conflict, but that 250 was a reply to one of indian member. 

From 1994-2005 PAF clocked 350 hours per F-16 airframe in a year despite the fact PAF was under heavy sanctions. As soon as spare parts were available since 2002 i can say with full confidence that F-16 are doing 400+ hours each year. In war time of course the sorties are raised. IMO the MKI also clocks nearly the same hours as our F-16s.
The spare parts for PAF in case of war should not be the problem as the F-16 deal covers most of it.


----------



## thunder rules

jagjitnatt said:


> India always had a numerical advantage, but what bugged India in the past was that Indian planes were not quality wise superior to PAF's. PAF enjoyed planes life F86 Sabre and F104 which Indian's never had. Indians used Gnats and Hunters, that too later on, and even these were not technically superior but rather on par with F86.
> 
> Now though the scenario has changed. Today IAF has better planes and more planes and can take on PAF in a better way.




what a joke... if u had budget constrains and we had them too even more serious from india, indeed today pakistan is facing it .. and how come u missed mig 21 which india bought in huge quantity which was superior to pakistans any of the fighter aircraft of that time even our mirages were subsonic and mig was super sonic.. and yes scenario has changed dude.. today pakistan is a nuclear power and india dont have enough balls to attack us no matter how big is ur inventory of aircraft it.. ? 

and dont jump to conclusions when we in past can give hard time to 8 time bigger enemy then just imagine what can nuclear power do with u..  and dont forget our nukes are superior then indias nukes and more in quantity as well as per some international intelligence reports 

come out of ur fools paradise


----------



## Manticore

there are certain critical strategic areas and situations which have been pinpointed by our defence council---

if in a war , we lose in those areas , then it will automatically give the green signal to launch atomic bombs as at that time , the very existance of pakistan would be at stake---

the lesser conventional strength we have , the quicker we will use our nuclear strength-- maybe thats a reason why u.s is helping us in the non-conventional weapons department


----------



## Myth_buster_1

jagjitnatt said:


> India always had a numerical advantage, but what bugged India in the past was that Indian planes were not quality wise superior to PAF's. PAF enjoyed planes life F86 Sabre and F104 which Indian's never had. Indians used Gnats and Hunters, that too later on, and even these were not technically superior but rather on par with F86.
> 
> Now though the scenario has changed. Today IAF has better planes and more planes and can take on PAF in a better way.



You have tendency of posting few baseless off topic posts and running away without even supporting your argument with any valid sources.

In 1965 war. IAF had numerical and technical superiority over PAF. 
PAF most advance fighter type was F-104 and only 12 were acquired where as in early 60s IAF acquired Mig-21F along with AA-2 air to air missiles but unfortunatly for IAF the entire fleet of mig-21 were whipped out by sabres.. Only one F-86 squadron were equipped with ineffective AIM-9 version while the rest of 90 Sabres were not fitted with AIM-9s or were not capable of. 
F-86 without AIM-9 was inferior to IAF Hunter Gnat and Mig-21. 
Ironically the RAF replaced its F-86 inventory with more capable dogfighter the Hunters and Indians are claiming Sabers are superior to Hunters. 
IAF had about 800 combat aircraft strength while PAF had only 130 but surprisingly it was PAF which kept air dominance. 

In 71 war. IAF had total numerical and technical superiority with more capable mig-21 fleet but again it was PAF which won air war in 71.


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> You have tendency of posting few baseless off topic posts and running away without even supporting your argument with any valid sources.
> 
> In 1965 war. IAF had numerical and technical superiority over PAF.
> PAF most advance fighter type was F-104 and only 12 were acquired where as in early 60s IAF acquired Mig-21F along with AA-2 air to air missiles but unfortunatly for IAF the entire fleet of mig-21 were whipped out by sabres.. Only one F-86 squadron were equipped with ineffective AIM-9 version while the rest of 90 Sabres were not fitted with AIM-9s or were not capable of.
> F-86 without AIM-9 was inferior to IAF Hunter Gnat and Mig-21.
> Ironically the RAF replaced its F-86 inventory with more capable dogfighter the Hunters and Indians are claiming Sabers are superior to Hunters.
> IAF had about 800 combat aircraft strength while PAF had only 130 but surprisingly it was PAF which kept air dominance.
> 
> In 71 war. IAF had total numerical and technical superiority with more capable mig-21 fleet but again it was PAF which won air war in 71.



looks like you flow with the words a lot than the required......*whiped out the entire mig-21f fleet*???
can u give a source.....

also *pak won the air war in 71*
...any non-indo pak credible link.......

so plz try being sourceful instead of being a box of useless words


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> looks like you flow with the words a lot than the required......*whiped out the entire mig-21f fleet*???
> can u give a source.....
> 
> also *pak won the air war in 71*
> ...any non-indo pak credible link.......
> 
> so plz try being sourceful instead of being a box of useless words



The world is not only limited to only Bharatrasksak and wikipedia.
But i will be more then happy to enlighten another misinformed friend from across the border.



> PATHANKOT STRIKE
> 1965
> 8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. *Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabers as tried escort overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAF's Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which was seen again during the War. *Tied escorts consisted of Wing Commander M G Tawab (later Air Marshal and air Chief of Bangladesh Air Force) and Flight Lieutenant Arshsad Sami while the strike elements were led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider with Flight Lieutenant M Akbar, Mazhar Abbas, Dilawar Hussain, Ghani Akbar and Flyng Officer Arshad Chaudhary, Khalid Latif and Abbas Khattak (later CAS, PAF) in his formation.









According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute database, USSR supplied 12 Mig-21F to IAF in 1963. Ironically non of the Mig-21F variants acquired in 1963 were never seen in the combat again and their is no photographic record that proves IAF Mig-21F from 65 war survived.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> The world is not only limited to only Bharatrasksak and wikipedia.
> But i will be more then happy to enlighten another misinformed friend from across the border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute database, USSR supplied 12 Mig-21F to IAF in 1963. Ironically non of the Mig-21F variants acquired in 1963 were never seen in the combat again and their is no photographic record that proves IAF Mig-21F from 65 war survived.




yes internet is more than bharatrakshak aand wikepedia but cerainly it is more than Pakdef and other pakistani forums.....i asked for links not cut and paste stuff...give me a link of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute database not a quote from it....i can certainly give a lot over it.....let me give you a neutral link by Sqn leader. B.Henry,British assistant military attache to Pakistan in 1971

http://orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills.pdf
http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/history/volume5/508/IAF_1965war_kills.pdf

Library of Congress Country Studies VERSION

Unable to deter India's activities in the eastern sector, on December 3, 1971, Pakistan launched an air attack in the western sector on a number of Indian airfields, including Ambala in Haryana, Amritsar in Punjab, and Udhampur in Jammu and Kashmir. The attacks did not succeed in inflicting substantial damage. The Indian air force retaliated the next day and quickly achieved air superiority. On the ground, the strategy in the eastern sector marked a significant departure from previous Indian battle plans and tactics, which had emphasized set-piece battles and slow advances. The strategy adopted was a swift, three-pronged assault of nine infantry divisions with attached armored units and close air support that rapidly converged on Dhaka, the capital of East Pakistan. Lieutenant General Sagat Singh, who commanded the eighth, twenty-third, and fifty-seventh divisions, led the Indian thrust into East Pakistan. As these forces attacked Pakistani formations, the Indian air force rapidly destroyed the small air contingent in East Pakistan and put the Dhaka airfield out of commission


----------



## SARMAD ZAIDI

all on PAKISTAN'S behalf i was willing to say you have mentioned,
THANK YOU.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Usually its below my dignity to reply to third grade posts such as honour's but then I should take the honor of educating misinformed trolls. This is my last reply in this thread on air war subject because you are taking the discussion off topic. 
You could have at least taken the effort to google Stockholm International Peace Research Institute and surfaced the website to find the data. Or do you need help? 
And you should have defiantly bothered to read articles which clearly states the source, btw its air enthusiastic magazine. 


honour said:


> yes internet is more than bharatrakshak aand wikepedia but cerainly it is more than Pakdef and other pakistani forums.....i asked for links not cut and paste stuff...give me a link of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute database not a quote from it....i can certainly give a lot over it.....let me give you a neutral link by Sqn leader. B.Henry,British assistant military attache to Pakistan in 1971
> 
> http://orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills.pdf
> http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/history/volume5/508/IAF_1965war_kills.pdf



Not only are you deluded and misinformed but quite not so smart as well to comprehend few this and that on your own. Trolls have made habit of being spoon fed all the way. 
Your orbat and orderofbattle source are nothing but utter nonsense, nonfactual data and 90&#37; of research are based on Indian bias sources thus not neutral at all. 

Soon after 1965 war PAF easily disapproved pathological lair indian claim by flying 86 sabres 10 starfighters and 20 b-57 which comprised of PAF combat strength not to forget the combat air craft that were not able to fly after the war due to lack of spares which were sanctioned by US. 

The fallowing article is from 1969 Flight International magazine published by john frickr. 











As for 1971 IAF claims. 
The creditability of orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971 ends right their with a false claims of destroying up to 10 PAF Mirages. Nothing but pack of lies and propaganda to satisfy indian ego.

Non of PAF mirages were ever shot down by IAF. 
Air enthusiastic article.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> Usually its below my dignity to reply to third grade posts such as honour's but then I should take the honor of educating misinformed trolls. This is my last reply in this thread on air war subject because you are taking the discussion off topic.
> You could have at least taken the effort to google Stockholm International Peace Research Institute and surfaced the website to find the data. Or do you need help?
> And you should have defiantly bothered to read articles which clearly states the source, btw its air enthusiastic magazine.
> 
> 
> Not only are you deluded and misinformed but quite not so smart as well to comprehend few this and that on your own. Trolls have made habit of being spoon fed all the way.
> Your orbat and orderofbattle source are nothing but utter nonsense, nonfactual data and 90% of research are based on Indian bias sources thus not neutral at all.
> 
> Soon after 1965 war PAF easily disapproved pathological lair indian claim by flying 86 sabres 10 starfighters and 20 b-57 which comprised of PAF combat strength not to forget the combat air craft that were not able to fly after the war due to lack of spares which were sanctioned by US.
> 
> The fallowing article is from 1969 Flight International magazine published by john frickr.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for 1971 IAF claims.
> The creditability of orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971 ends right their with a false claims of destroying up to 10 PAF Mirages. Nothing but pack of lies and propaganda to satisfy indian ego.
> 
> Non of PAF mirages were ever shot down by IAF.
> Air enthusiastic article.



again a pak source....seems you dont wanna come out of your limit of pakdef.......i dont want cut/paste stuff from useless pakistani sources....give me some credible link......

else just sit in front of pc and watch some movie...dont try to make your own history here..........


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> again a pak source....seems you dont wanna come out of your limit of pakdef.......i dont want cut/paste stuff from useless pakistani sources....give me some credible link......
> 
> else just sit in front of pc and watch some movie...dont try to make your own history here..........



Are you retarded or somthing? or either you are too brain washed with indian propaganda thats why you are too deluded to believe in reality. 
All of those articles that i have posted are not even Pakistani goes to show that you are too deluded to read the articles because it clearly shatters all indian myths. 
LInk to 65 war article written by John Frickr
The 71 war article is from "Air Enthusiastic" magazine not a pakistani source. One of the member from Netowrk54 WAFF forum got hold of such a limited edition published in 70s and scanned the pages for us. 
Truly amazed by your skills of being denial.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> Are you retarded or somthing? or either you are too brain washed with indian propaganda thats why you are too deluded to believe in reality.
> All of those articles that i have posted are not even Pakistani goes to show that you are too deluded to read the articles because it clearly shatters all indian myths.
> LInk to 65 war article written by John Frickr
> The 71 war article is from "Air Enthusiastic" magazine not a pakistani source. One of the member from Netowrk54 WAFF forum got hold of such a limited edition published in 70s and scanned the pages for us.
> Truly amazed by your skills of being denial.


ok 22 mirages......first tell me if global security is a worthy neutral link or not????????????????????

a part from its history of paf......
After the war Pakistan recieved *28* or more Mirage 5s which were ordered before the war, plus the 10 Mirage III RPs ordered after the war. A dozen and a half other Mirages were procured from Lebenon and France to build up numbers......


----------



## DaRk WaVe

> R-77 has an effective range of about 60 kms. *2 R-77s launched at 60kms have a 90&#37; kill rate.*


source please


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> Are you retarded or somthing? or either you are too brain washed with indian propaganda thats why you are too deluded to believe in reality.
> All of those articles that i have posted are not even Pakistani goes to show that you are too deluded to read the articles because it clearly shatters all indian myths.
> LInk to 65 war article written by John Frickr
> The 71 war article is from "Air Enthusiastic" magazine not a pakistani source. One of the member from Netowrk54 WAFF forum got hold of such a limited edition published in 70s and scanned the pages for us.
> Truly amazed by your skills of being denial.



also how was john fricker was related to war....i gave you the link by B.Henry who was on your side.....british military attache to ur country
if b.henry is worthless so is john......also the Air Enthusiastic scan has some white blots...which challenge its article...anything about it.......


well after I Googled this Air Enthusiastic magazine ,i found it was started in 1974 and the name is air enthusiast.....so get ur sources correct.......
same magzines quote..........Operated by Number 9 "Griffin" squadron, the F-104 served the PAF in a satisfied manner in the 1965 war but had become outclassed in the 1971 war with India when up to 8 Starfighters were lost while accounting for 2 kills


so got anything else.......


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> ok 22 mirages......first tell me if global security is a worthy neutral link or not????????????????????
> 
> a part from its history of paf......
> After the war Pakistan recieved *28* or more Mirage 5s which were ordered before the war, plus the 10 Mirage III RPs ordered after the war. A dozen and a half other Mirages were procured from Lebenon and France to build up numbers......



I feel like now its below my dignity to answer a troll like you who is beyond shadow of any dough the laughing stock.
Global Security does not conducts research on its own rather it uses various sources to compile its article. 
And sorry I can not understand what you are trying to say about Mirages. Are you trying to say that PAF operated more then 22 Mirages in 71 war and actually lost as many as 10 just because a pathological liar indian said so?


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> I feel like now its below my dignity to answer a troll like you who is beyond shadow of any dough the laughing stock.
> Global Security does not conducts research on its own rather it uses various sources to compile its article.
> And sorry I can not understand what you are trying to say about Mirages. Are you trying to say that PAF operated more then 22 Mirages in 71 war and actually lost as many as 10 just because a pathological liar indian said so?



Don't use the word DIGNITY...that's beyond your level.....
global security is not right
B.Henry is a troll
Wikipedia is a troll..
A post against you from the same magazine is a troll...
Dassault aviation is wrong...

who is right ??????? you 
not again.....
now its beyond my DIGNITY to even answer your TROLLS...

now please lets stick to the topic of f-16 v/s su-30mki......

dont start your  again...


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> also how was john fricker was related to war....i gave you the link by B.Henry who was on your side.....british military attache to ur country
> if b.henry is worthless so is john......also the Air Enthusiastic scan has some white blots...which challenge its article...anything about it.......


You are being typical deluded indian. Reality is just beyond acceptance of most of Indians like you.
John Fricker was a defence analyst and he conducted research on his own based on authentic reports. He clearly mentioned that *Pakistan air force flew 86 sabres 10 starfighters and 20 b-57 in a parade soon after the end of the war! This fact alone disproves any indian myth of destroying 50-60 PAF fighters. *
Where as if you would have bother to read your own provided sources by misinformed B Henry he is basically relying on Indian sources such as laughing stock bharatraksa. 


> same magzines quote..........Operated by Number 9 "Griffin" squadron, the F-104 served the PAF in a satisfied manner in the 1965 war but had become outclassed in the 1971 war with India when up to 8 Starfighters were lost while accounting for 2 kills
> so got anything else.......


Do you have a link for this source?


----------



## visgahl_gutsy

Growler said:


> You are being typical deluded indian. Reality is just beyond acceptance of most of Indians like you.
> J




pakistanis always live in their own cocoon of lies.
till a evening before liberation of bangladesh ... pakistani media was showing wverything is in control.
just next evening b.d. was liberated.

this is just to show how deluded these guys are.

facebook , youtube , twitter , we know vats coming next. 

stay living in ure own cocoon of lies and quit calling others deluded.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> Don't use the word DIGNITY...that's beyond your level.....


Ofcourse, the word dignity is beyond my level after indulging myself with a troll of highest order like you who lacks comprehension and knowledge. 



> global security is not right
> B.Henry is a troll
> Wikipedia is a troll..
> A post against you from the same magazine is a troll...
> Dassault aviation is wrong...



Like i said. Global security is relying on Indian side of the story, they have not conducted any research on their own! But i see its quite hard for deluded indians to comprehend this fact! 

Btw what is Dassault aviation "website" claiming? 22 Mirage-III were delivered to PAF before 71 war while nearly a squadron of Mirage-5 was on order which was not delivered before 71 war! The next batch of Mirages ordered by PAF was Mirage-5 which infact never saw any combat. Even if Mirage-5 were operational during 71 war the Indians are not even claiming any kills rather they are claiming victories on Mirage-III variants! Indian pathological lair claims of destroying 10 Mirages were easily disapproved by PAF by lining up its entire Mirage-III on the tarmac for the foreigner defence analysts and that picture clearly says 22 Mirages lined up and one going under a maintenance in a hanger while once crashed. I will ask the scanner to post another copy of the article without white marks. dont know why its their now and dont be under impression that the hidden words say 10 Mirages were lost in 71 war. 


> who is right ??????? you
> not again.....


Let the viewers decide.


> now its beyond my DIGNITY to even answer your TROLLS...
> dont start your  again...


You have clearly portrayed yourself.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

visgahl_gutsy said:


> pakistanis always live in their own cocoon of lies.
> till a evening before liberation of bangladesh ... pakistani media was showing wverything is in control.
> just next evening b.d. was liberated.
> 
> this is just to show how deluded these guys are.
> 
> facebook , youtube , twitter , we know vats coming next.
> 
> stay living in ure own cocoon of lies and quit calling others deluded.



Looks like another dumb fish has fallen to the bait. 
Btw you have clearly defined my words of indians. good job.


----------



## visgahl_gutsy

Growler said:


> Looks like another dumb fish has fallen to the bait.
> Btw you have clearly defined my words of indians. good job.





ya ya ya .... my message has been delievered.


----------



## honour

Growler said:


> You are being typical deluded indian. Reality is just beyond acceptance of most of Indians like you.
> John Fricker was a defence analyst and he conducted research on his own based on authentic reports. He clearly mentioned that *Pakistan air force flew 86 sabres 10 starfighters and 20 b-57 in a parade soon after the end of the war! This fact alone disproves any indian myth of destroying 50-60 PAF fighters. *
> Where as if you would have bother to read your own provided sources by misinformed B Henry he is basically relying on Indian sources such as laughing stock bharatraksa.
> 
> Do you have a link for this source?



well u need some lessons to have ability to learn and accept.......
the fighters showed in parade were routed via Libya and Jordan...Google it you will find a lot of links over it....better learn so history and manners..the earlier links by b.Henry had quoted the dassault official statements in the note...kindly check that.i gave you a lot of links but still you don't accept them...then nothing i can do.........u live in your own fantastic world....ok plz i dont want to divert the topic...so plz create a new thread for this...give it a title of your pathetic choice...then see what i m gonna tell u there...u want links....i will give you a big picture there.......


----------



## footmarks

Mein kya soch ke aya tha is thread mein or yaha kya chal raha hai!

Guys, this thread is about f-16 blok 52 not mig 21's and sabres'


----------



## Kompromat

Try to keep the discussion to the topic.

Thanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## thunder rules

both are 4.5 gen fighters with little difference mki may be superior in few aspects but those are not really worth discussing.. block 52 is quite advanced and can engage mki easily.


----------



## Rain

here it goes nuts again!


----------



## Indian_Idol

for every citizen what his country has is always superior to what the enemy has... there will be no real conclusion in these kind of comparisons... just my view...


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Great, you never stop amusing us with your third rate baseless childish posts. 


honour said:


> well u need some lessons to have ability to learn and accept.......


Coming from a guy who is in state of denial. 


> the fighters showed in parade were routed via Libya and Jordan...Google it you will find a lot of links over it....better learn so history and manners..


 The laughing stock you are! 
PAF received Jordanian F-104 in 1971 war not in 65 you idiot! In fact PAF received no foreigner combat aircraft as immediate help which was the case in 71 war only. 
You are proving to be even a bigger clown then i have anticipated! 


> the earlier links by b.Henry had quoted the dassault official statements in the note...kindly check that.i gave you a lot of links but still you don't accept them...


Again! The next batch of Mirages were V variant not III! PAF operated 24 Mirage-III in 71 war and IAF claimed Mirage-III kills not V variants! Is it so hard to comprehend or do you lack something? PAF easily disapproved IAF claim by lining up 22 Mirage-IIIs right after the end of 71 war! Only 1 was lost due to accident. 


> then nothing i can do.........u live in your own fantastic world....ok plz i dont want to divert the topic...so plz create a new thread for this...give it a title of your pathetic choice...then see what i m gonna tell u there...u want links....i will give you a big picture there.......


 *"fantastic world"*
Kid do us all a favor, dont comment on threads where you have no clue and Knowledge. dont make a fool out of yourself.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Materialistic

The last time i visited this thread it was very peaceful and discussions were all of technical nature. And today I just came here to see if there are any abnormal developments(peaceful discussion), but Thank God we are all well on track, after a few days time this thread has also become a battleground and a history class like usual.
*Good to see, that everyting is Normal.*


----------



## Storm Force

I find it astonishing that there is a thread about 18 F16/52 of PAF versis 230 su30mki of the indian air force. 

Or should we use current nos which are 6 x F16/52 VERSIS 115 SU30MKI. 

Which ever its a rediculous debate. 

Yes i know there 44 older F16 which will receive MLU but please don,t start telling us they are going to match up to a Fully fledging tvc/pesa radar equipped su30mki carrying twice the bvr payload.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Storm Force said:


> I find it astonishing that there is a thread about 18 F16/52 of PAF versis 230 su30mki of the indian air force.
> 
> Or should we use current nos which are 6 x F16/52 VERSIS 115 SU30MKI.
> 
> Which ever its a rediculous debate.
> 
> Yes i know there 44 older F16 which will receive MLU but please don,t start telling us they are going to match up to a Fully fledging tvc/pesa radar equipped su30mki carrying twice the bvr payload.



You are such a hope less stubborn case. You keep repeating same BS over and over again until you run out of breath. 

44 + option for another squadron of used F-16s MLUed plus 18 + another 14 (recently ordered) = round about 100 F-16 is more then enough for PAF to handle IAF Su-30 threat. Su-30 wont be able to utilize its full potential radar range in dense electronic warfare environment such as in case of war. At least PAF feels confident and Indian officials are getting goosebumps from PAK new F-16s.


----------



## Trichy

Common Friends Lets Come to the Topic...

*Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI*


----------



## TaimiKhan

*Anymore off topic posts, will get deleted. 

Enough of this derailing. *


----------



## Skywalker

honour said:


> Don't use the word DIGNITY...that's beyond your level.....
> global security is not right
> B.Henry is a troll
> Wikipedia is a troll..
> A post against you from the same magazine is a troll...
> Dassault aviation is wrong...
> 
> who is right ??????? you
> not again.....
> now its beyond my DIGNITY to even answer your TROLLS...
> 
> now please lets stick to the topic of f-16 v/s su-30mki......
> 
> dont start your  again...



ok guys now stop fighting...here is the answer of your query, in 71 war Pakistan had 24 mirages based in Mauripoor base , karachi. India claimed that they have shot down 6 Mirages, which were proved wrong when PAF lined up 22 mirages with 1 in the hanger and and 1 got crashed even before the war started.

The same picture can be seen in flight International megazine of 1972 (not sure about the month) and also if you search the same picture in the photo section on this forum you can find the same picture with my comments at the bottom.

So India never shot any PAF MIrages at all. Period.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## deckingraj

Skywalker said:


> ok guys now stop fighting...here is the answer of your query, in 71 war Pakistan had 24 mirages based in Mauripoor base , karachi. India claimed that they have shot down 6 Mirages, which were proved wrong when PAF lined up 22 mirages with 1 in the hanger and and 1 got crashed even before the war started.
> 
> The same picture can be seen in flight International megazine of 1972 (not sure about the month) and also if you search the same picture in the photo section on this forum you can find the same picture with my comments at the bottom.
> 
> So India never shot any PAF MIrages at all. Period.



Thanks for the useful post however don't you think you are adding to the pathetic level of trolling going on in this thread????

This is MKI vs F16 Block 52....


----------



## honour

Skywalker said:


> ok guys now stop fighting...here is the answer of your query, in 71 war Pakistan had 24 mirages based in Mauripoor base , karachi. India claimed that they have shot down 6 Mirages, which were proved wrong when PAF lined up 22 mirages with 1 in the hanger and and 1 got crashed even before the war started.
> 
> The same picture can be seen in flight International megazine of 1972 (not sure about the month) and also if you search the same picture in the photo section on this forum you can find the same picture with my comments at the bottom.
> 
> So India never shot any PAF MIrages at all. Period.



Dassault claims it sold 28 mirages to PAF...check the links i gave earlier...one of em was of dassault


----------



## deckingraj

honour said:


> Dassault claims it sold 28 mirages to PAF...check the links i gave earlier...one of em was of dassault



Bro, may i suggest something??? Why don't you do us a *BIG FAVOR* and open a thread...There has been many threads in the past and they just go on and on...In the end Nothing comes out conclusive...Indian POV and Pakistan POV remains same....It would be great if you can share your links there...I promise the thread will have the potential to get you the award of maximum posts and views in a thread ...lol...

P.S : My suggestion would be to go slow...For example - Number of Kills vs a bigger topic like who won the Air War...

Lets leave this thread to MKI vs F16..what say?


----------



## honour

not sure if its posted earlier....but after watching the interview of Hal chairman i got two links to combine and then give the conclusion from his speech...


India intends to integrate a variant of its Nirbhay long-range cruise missile on the Suhkoi Su-30MKI Flanker strike aircraft, following the weapon&#8217;s initial development in the ground-launch configuration.

The addition of the Nirbhay to the Flanker&#8217;s weapons inventory would give the platform a long-range&#8212;and potentially strategic&#8212;strike capability. While details on the Nirbhay program remain scant, Indian officials have suggested the weapon will have a range of 800-1,000 km. (500-620 mi.).

An air-launched derivative of the Nirbhay would be a candidate platform for the air force element of India&#8217;s strategic nuclear triad ambitions. Packaging of a warhead in the constrained space of a cruise-missile body is a key technical challenge. The current Indian air force nuclear weapon capability consists almost certainly only of free-fall weapons.

The Nirbhay project is being led by India&#8217;s Defense Research and Development Organization&#8217;s (DRDO) Hyderabad-based Advanced Systems Laboratory.

The overall design and aerodynamic study work has been completed, as has the design of the propulsion system. There are suggestions that a mock-up of the design could be displayed at the AeroIndia show in 2011. A transporter erector launch vehicle is already being developed for the ground-launched version of the cruise missile by the DRDO&#8217;s Pune-based Research and Development Establishment (Engineering).

The acquisition of a 1,000-km.-class cruise missile is part of New Delhi&#8217;s strategy to match and surpass systems being developed by Islamabad. Pakistan is working on a ground-launched cruise missile called the Babur, likely with substantial Chinese help, and is probably receiving support from South Africa in developing the Ra&#8217;ad air-launched weapon. The Babur was unveiled in 2005 and the shorter-range Ra&#8217;ad was announced in 2007. The service status of both weapons remains uncertain.

Development of the Nirbhay apparently began at least five years ago. It would be the third indigenous weapon to equip the Su-30MKI, joining the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile&#8212;a variant of the NPO Mashinostroenia 3M55 (SS-N-26)&#8212;and the Astra medium-range air-to-air missile. The Nirbhay would have three times the range of the Brahmos. The army is also acquiring a ground-launched land-attack version of the Brahmos alongside the system in development for the air force.

An air-launched variant of the subsonic Nirbhay &#8220;is in the initial stages,&#8221; says an Indian industry official. There are &#8220;plans for it, but not immediately,&#8221; he adds.

The Nirbhay likely adopts a conventional cruise missile configuration with some form of flip-out mid-body wing and cruciform tail surfaces. The turbofan engine most likely will be recessed in the airframe body, given the requirement that the weapon be canister-launch-capable.

It is not yet clear which turbojet India plans to use for the Nirbhay. It did strike a deal with Russia over the supply and in-country manufacture of the Saturn 36MT engine in 2006, though the extent to which this deal has been implemented is uncertain.

There are also suggestions that India&#8217;s development program has had some technical support from Israel.

Given the size of the Nirbhay&#8212;reports suggest it is 6 meters (19.6 ft.)&#8212;the Su-30MKI would likely carry one or two of the missiles. To maximize platform range, the aircraft could carry one weapon on a pylon in the tunnel between the two engine bays. This is the approach being taken with the Brahmos missile, which is now scheduled to begin initial launch trials from a test aircraft in 2011. If the aircraft were to carry two Nirbhays, one could fit under each inboard wing-station.

New Delhi has also yet to disclose what kinds of mid-course and terminal guidance the Nirbhay will use. India and Russia did, however, strike a deal this year allowing Indian access to the high-precision signal of Moscow&#8217;s Glonass satellite navigation system.

In terms of medium-range standoff weapons, the Indian air force&#8217;s Su-30MKI can carry the Russian Missile Corp. Kh-59M (AS-18 Kazoo). A conventional variant of the Nirbhay, with the requisite level of accuracy, would provide a long-range precision-strike complement to the Kh-59M. 


Pilot production of the air-launched version of the India-Russia BrahMos missile has started in Russia in line with plans to fit it in the IAF's Su-30MKI fighter aircraft by 2012.

The first few missiles for factory tests have been manufactured at the Strela production association in the Orenburg Region, the Regnum news agency reported quoting regional government head Sergei Grachyov. Once the ground tests were completed, the plant would launch series production of the airborne missile, he said.

The 2.55-tonne BrahMos supersonic anti-ship missile has been modified, shedding 500 kg and getting a new ignition engine to fire the missile at high altitudes.

The Su-30MKI also required modifications to fit the missile under its belly and integrate it into the plane's fire control system. The Sukhoi Corporation is working to strengthen the wings so that two more missiles can be fitted in the flanks.

Flight tests

Flight tests of the air-launched BrahMos are expected next year, and the IAF plans to begin inducting the BrahMos-armed Su-30MKI in 2012. Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of BrahMos Aerospace A.S. Pillai said earlier this month that 40 IAF Su-30MKI aircraft would be armed with BrahMos missiles.

Experts said the BrahMos-armed Su-30MKI would be a game changer in the Indian Ocean, giving the IAF a deeper strategic reach and an extra deadly punch. With a range of 290 km, the missile will allow the pilot to hit enemy vessels while staying well outside the reach of their air defences. Travelling at a top speed of Mach 2.8 barely 3-4 metres above the sea surface, the missile cannot be intercepted by any known weapon system in the world.

Russia's Irkut Corporation, which manufactures Sukhoi aircraft, counts on the air-launched BrahMos missile to increase the demand for Su-30 fighters in international markets.

&#8220;Initial studies suggest that we will be able to produce 250 more Su-30s armed with BrahMos missiles,&#8221; said Vladimir Sautov, vice-president for marketing.

The sea and ground-launch versions of BrahMos missiles have already been successfully tested and put into service by the Indian Army and Navy. So far, the missiles have been assembled at the Strela plant, and manufacturing facilities are also being set up in Thiruvananthapuram with Russian assistance.

BrahMos Aerospace, a joint venture between India and Russia, has started designing a hypersonic version of the BrahMos missile, BrahMos&#8211;II. 







* Mr.nayak said in an interview to " SANIK SANDESH" that after Aug 2010 the sukhoi's which will enter production will have strengthened hard points as well as the fire control system will be modified to have long range implications.he added that after 2012 <late> Bramhos as well as nirbhay cruise missile will be inducted in the Sukhoi's

He said this change will be done in the next 2-3 months under the guidance of russian team which arrived here last Monday with the new set of program source codes for mig-27 up gradation.
This comes as the latest claim of HAL and DRDo for the Nirbhay cruise missile when drdo is not even ready with the full developed design mock up of nirbhay....only a model was shown....*


----------



## Myth_buster_1

honour said:


> Dassault claims it sold 28 mirages to PAF...check the links i gave earlier...one of em was of dassault



You are so thick! Dassault and PAF struck the deal in 1970 and Mirage V variants were suppose to be delivered in late 71 but due to war they were never delivered but next year! IAF is only calming Mirage-III variants not the variants which dassault is claiming to have delivered in 71! PAF lined up 22 Mirage-III and 1 in hanger while 1 crashed. Meaning Pathological lair indian claim of destroying something like 10 Mirage-III was easily debunked! 


sorry mods.. kindly move all these posts in 65 71 air war thread.


----------



## Storm Force

Growler are you now comparing the MLU F16/A/B to be the equal of the 
F16/52.

44 + 18 + 14 = 76 MOSTLU UPGRADED F16/A/B 

Not in the league of a 230 + 40 optional = 270 su30mki 

Outnumbered 3-1`

And ahead in tech


----------



## thunder rules

Storm Force said:


> Growler are you now comparing the MLU F16/A/B to be the equal of the
> F16/52.
> 
> 44 + 18 + 14 = 76 MOSTLU UPGRADED F16/A/B
> 
> Not in the league of a 230 + 40 optional = 270 su30mki
> 
> Outnumbered 3-1`
> 
> And ahead in tech



u will have 270 mkis in 2020 in the mean time pakistan will also look some other alternatives as well.. 76 f 16's mlu are not the end.. we going to have improved j 10 as well.. but any waz when u will have ur 
270 mki's i am sure we would also have some thing to deter ur mkis. dont underestimate paf


----------



## Manticore

Storm Force said:


> Growler are you now comparing the MLU F16/A/B to be the equal of the
> F16/52.
> 
> 44 + 18 + 14 = 76 MOSTLU UPGRADED F16/A/B
> 
> Not in the league of a 230 + 40 optional = 270 su30mki
> 
> Outnumbered 3-1`
> 
> And ahead in tech



paf f-16 mlu specifications 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...f-16-block-52-vs-su-30-mki-15.html#post870175


----------



## raveolution

thunder rules said:


> u will have 270 mkis in 2020 in the mean time pakistan will also look some other alternatives as well.. 76 f 16's mlu are not the end.. we going to have improved j 10 as well.. but any waz when u will have ur
> 270 mki's i am sure we would also have some thing to deter ur mkis. dont underestimate paf



It will be 270 MKI's by 2014-2015 as directed by MoD to HAL and the 40 being manufactured in Russia. By 2020 the 126 or 200 MRCA's will be inducted as well as the first few squadrons of the Pak-Fa.

What is the status of the J-10B? Any deals on weapons/ radar/ avionics finalised? Hell what does the aircraft even look like? Some members say it will be a J-10 with western avionics and radar whereas others say it will be completely new design?!!

There is also word that the PAF will finalise a MRCA after the Indians do. What are the options? Any idea about how much will they cost an already cash strapped country? No-one is underestimating the PAF. I'm sure they are aware of the problem but unfortunately cant do much to resolve it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Trichy

thunder rules said:


> u will have *270 mkis in 2020* in the mean time pakistan will also look some other alternatives as well.. 76 f 16's mlu are not the end.. we going to have improved j 10 as well.. but any waz when u will have ur
> 270 mki's i am sure we would also have some thing to deter ur mkis. dont underestimate paf



I Think it Finished before 2015..??


----------



## ice_man

Storm Force said:


> Growler are you now comparing the MLU F16/A/B to be the equal of the
> F16/52.
> 
> 44 + 18 + 14 = 76 MOSTLU UPGRADED F16/A/B
> 
> Not in the league of a 230 + 40 optional = 270 su30mki
> 
> Outnumbered 3-1`
> 
> And ahead in tech




outnumbered 3:1 no you are forgetting another factor into the equation which makes the odds 10:1 here see for yourself:












 sorry mods i posted this video in two threads but this thread is anyways a measuring contest so i had to add this link!! please let it stay so that everyone can have a laugh because this thread is going nowhere!!


----------



## INDIAISM

Storm Force said:


> Growler are you now comparing the MLU F16/A/B to be the equal of the
> F16/52.
> 
> 44 + 18 + 14 = 76 MOSTLU UPGRADED F16/A/B
> 
> Not in the league of a 230 + 40 optional = 270 su30mki
> 
> Outnumbered 3-1`
> 
> And ahead in tech


its 76 F16{MLU+BL 52} against 117{66 MIG SMT + 51 MIRAAGE 2000(9)}
1st of all let them compete with this then we will talk about our SU30MKI

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Trichy

INDIAISM said:


> its 76 F16{MLU+BL 52} against 117{66 MIG SMT + 51 MIRAAGE 2000(9)}
> 1st of all let them compete with this then we will talk about our SU30MKI



Good point although, but we really need to replace analog to digital(Samtel Display, etc) on Su-30 MKI. And our MiG-29 SMT (AS) & Mirage 2000 dash 9 (MR), cant beat hole F-16 Fleet, we accept the truth first.


----------



## INDIAISM

Trichy said:


> Good point although, but we really need to replace analog to digital(Samtel Display, etc) on Su-30 MKI. And our MiG-29 SMT (AS) & Mirage 2000 dash 9 (MR), cant beat hole F-16 Fleet, we accept the truth first.



bro i think u r highly under estimating MIG 29smt (with israeli sub systems) and MIRAAGE 2000...........believe it or not ther present number is enough for 36 J10 {wen ever they will get it}+ 44 F 16mlu+ 18 f 16 bl 52{i don't think order of 14 f 16 is even confirm}

*Now this is the real equation*

66 MIG 29SMT(upgraded) confirm
+
51 MIRAAGE 2000(9) confirm
-----
117

*V/S* 

44 F 16 mlu confirm
+18 f 16blk 52 confirm 
+ 36 J 10{iske to engine ka hi kuch ata pta nhi hai} 
+ 14 f16 {which bl *NA TUM JANO NA HUMMM*}
-------
62 confirm+ 50*?*


*I m not including 45 MIG 29K here as they r the part of Indian Naval Air Arm but u can't deny their existance*


----------



## thunder rules

INDIAISM said:


> bro i think u r highly under estimating MIG 29smt (with israeli sub systems) and MIRAAGE 2000...........believe it or not ther present number is enough for 36 J10 {wen ever they will get it}+ 44 F 16mlu+ 18 f 16 bl 52{i don't think order of 14 f 16 is even confirm}
> 
> *Now this is the real equation*
> 
> 66 MIG 29SMT(upgraded) confirm
> +
> 51 MIRAAGE 2000(9) confirm
> -----
> 117
> 
> *V/S*
> 
> 44 F 16 mlu confirm
> +18 f 16blk 52 confirm
> + 36 J 10{iske to engine ka hi kuch ata pta nhi hai}
> + 14 f16 {which bl *NA TUM JANO NA HUMMM*}
> -------
> 62 confirm+ 50*?*
> 
> 
> *I m not including 45 MIG 29K here as they r the part of Indian Naval Air Arm but u can't deny their existance*



14 more f 16's after the delivery of 18 f 16's dis year is confirmed a news thats another thing if usa back stab us on the other hand by the end of this year we would have 50+ f 16's and u cant ignore rose mirages capabilities and yes thunders these are enough to take care ur inventory of mig 29 and mirage 2000. the only headache is mki for which pakistan have to look for an alternative even 18 block 52 are too less against 100+ mkis


----------



## Erroroverload

IAF has edge over PAF in numbers.I think BLK 52 and MLU's can give a tough time to SU30 MK, one on one the better pilot will win.
But hence if PAF will be defending force IAF will b on losing side.

but now IAF is getting Rafale, PAF has nothing to counter Rafale.
be realistic IAF is becoming a better force.



Stephen Cohen said:


> I will again the same thing
> 
> F 16 is a good plane but IAF is a FAR superior force
> 
> If you really want more facts here it is
> 
> IAF can defeat PAF ; EVEN without putting up a single SU 30 MKI in the battle
> 
> IAF can defeat PAF with its Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 and Mig 21 Bison
> 
> Just find out the *real strength of IAF *



yes iaf is superior but in numbers.
ha ha iaf can defeat PAF without a single su 30 mki , o come on don't b a fan boy, b realistic, BLK 52 and MLU's can beat the hell out of mig 29 and mirage 2000 
do some reading on google.ha ha and have some beef as well.


----------



## special

Viper0011. said:


> 1) IAF is "far superior" in numbers and at THIS time. With 150 BVR JFT's and 70 F-16's if you just take these, you risk of losing over 100 SU-30's......I can NEVER imagine India would take such a chance at this time, with a big giant Dragon on the other border. So because of that, your numbers even have to multiply. Now if you take JUST Pakistan specific squadrons in the next 2-3 years. Its not that bad. India could and will never try to put all the IAF to attack Pakistan. You might as well open your border's gates and put signs saying "welcome to China".



lol, at the time pak air force have 150 JF-17 toys and 70 f-16, indian air force will have 270 su 30mkis. 
su 30 mkis are much superior in capability. SU 27, the basic model of the su 30 is developed to counter F-15, which is a heavy fighter with more capable than f-16. so your statement is just an imagination. your f-16 are no mach for su-30 and rafael jets. indian air force s technologically and numerically superior to PAF

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Icarus

Capt.Popeye said:


> Maybe.... by just declaring WAR, perhaps?
> Funny world ..... this!



I wanted to know his ideas about how he believes that Mig-21s, Mig-29s and Mirage 2000s can incapacitate the entire PAF, its a far fetched assertion but I thought I'd hear the boy out none the less.



special said:


> lol, at the time pak air force have 150 JF-17 toys and 70 f-16, indian air force will have 270 su 30mkis.
> su 30 mkis are much superior in capability. SU 27, the basic model of the su 30 is developed to counter F-15, which is a heavy fighter with more capable than f-16. so your statement is just an imagination. your f-16 are no mach for su-30 and rafael jets. indian air force s technologically and numerically superior to PAF



The Mki has a 50km lock advantage over the F-16 which as anyone will tell you, boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on, ultimately, it boils down to a number of factors because the MKI and BLK52 are pretty evenly matched. Your argument on the SU-27 design bases heavily on the assumption that there will be a dog fight, the chances of that happening are next to impossible in today's world. 
So, if a BLK52 and MKI square off, it will depend heavily on who has the home advantage and who has more of their birds up in the air.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Icarus said:


> wanted to know his ideas about how he believes that Mig-21s, Mig-29s and Mirage 2000s can incapacitate the entire PAF, its a far fetched assertion but I thought I'd hear the boy out none the less.



I have made my point and *ruffled many feathers *

*But I stand by my assertion 
*
Theoretically and mathematically
*As on Today * We can win win even without Su 30MKI as per military simulation

Of COURSE we will suffer more losses

But real war is not fought like that ; the idea is to use maximum force to
minimise losses on our side


----------



## special

Icarus said:


> The Mki has a 50km lock advantage over the F-16 which as anyone will tell you, boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on, ultimately, it boils down to a number of factors because the MKI and BLK52 are pretty evenly matched. Your argument on the SU-27 design bases heavily on the assumption that there will be a dog fight, the chances of that happening are next to impossible in today's world.
> So, if a BLK52 and MKI square off, it will depend heavily on who has the home advantage and who has more of their birds up in the air.



su 30 mki have is more advanced than f-16 in every parameters.
like radar range, detection range. IRST, more weapons carrying capability, speed, maneuverability, electronics warfare capability, you name it.. in every field SU 30 mki is superior to f-16.


----------



## Icarus

Stephen Cohen said:


> I have made my point and *ruffled many feathers *
> 
> *But I stand by my assertion
> *
> Theoretically and mathematically
> *As on Today * We can win win even without Su 30MKI as per military simulation
> 
> Of COURSE we will suffer more losses
> 
> But real war is not fought like that ; the idea is to use maximum force to
> minimise losses on our side




1. You failed to answer my question. 
2. The highlighted contradiction highlights a flaw in your own argument.



special said:


> su 30 mki have is more advanced than f-16 in every parameters.
> like radar range, detection range. IRST, more weapons carrying capability, speed, maneuverability, electronics warfare capability, you name it.. in every field SU 30 mki is superior to f-16.



1. By F-16, I hope we are mutually referring to the BLK52. 
2. Many of the parameters that you have mentioned are indeed slated in the MKI's favour but again correspond to the same point that I raised earlier that they are decisive only in a dog fight, the precedent for which in the BVR age is negligible.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

The caveat being* AS on Today ie with a Fleet strength of 76 F 16 And 60 JF 17 in PAF 
*
With PAF adding more BVR capable JF 17 and IAF retiring its Mig 21 Bison by 2020

This EQUATION will change

I am cognizant of this fact

Therefore Su 30 MKI will have to participate in the battle

And if more F 16 are added to PAF ; we will need more Su 30 MKI


----------



## The Great One

Icarus said:


> The Mki has a 50km lock advantage over the F-16 which as anyone will tell you, boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on,



Try this. 2 minutes to fighter pilot.
Escapa!


----------



## Icarus

Stephen Cohen said:


> The caveat being* AS on Today ie with a Fleet strength of 76 F 16 And 60 JF 17 in PAF
> *
> With PAF adding more BVR capable JF 17 and IAF retiring its Mig 21 Bison by 2020
> 
> This EQUATION will change
> 
> I am cognizant of this fact
> 
> Therefore Su 30 MKI will have to participate in the battle
> 
> And if more F 16 are added to PAF ; we will need more Su 30 MKI



That's a more suitable argument, yes both the PAF and IAF are undergoing a definitive phase as they take a quantum leap in terms of the generation of jets that form the backbone of their air forces and India's acquisition of the Rafael will surely tip the scales overwhelmingly in their favour, but another invisible problem that is plaguing the IAF at the moment gives us a momentary edge to capitalize upon during this time of transition. 

The Indian Air Force’s Big Problem: Not Enough Pilots! | The Diplomat


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Icarus said:


> 1. You failed to answer my question.
> 2. The highlighted contradiction highlights a flaw in your own argument.



You are right on Both counts 

However it is NOT prudent on my part to tell How it can be done 

There is no contradiction 

*If you recall the entire SU 30 MKI fleet was grounded for some time some time back *

This ignited my curiosity and I had to find the answers to the question 

" What if there is NO Su 30 MKI available for a while "

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## special

Icarus said:


> Many of the parameters that you have mentioned are indeed slated in the MKI's favour but again correspond to the same point that I raised earlier that they are decisive only in a dog fight, the precedent for which in the BVR age is negligible.



BVR fights, su 30 can carry more weapons that f-16 and the radar coverage of su- is much grater than f-16. so the fist shoot, first kill is in favor of mki.





Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Icarus

The Great One said:


> Try this. 2 minutes to fighter pilot.
> Escapa!



I did 15 seconds on my third attempt, but please elucidate how this fits into the argument?


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Icarus said:


> That's a more suitable argument, yes both the PAF and IAF are undergoing a definitive phase as they take a quantum leap in terms of the generation of jets that form the backbone of their air forces and India's acquisition of the Rafael will surely tip the scales overwhelmingly in their favour, but another invisible problem that is plaguing the IAF at the moment gives us a momentary edge to capitalize upon during this time of transition.
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s Big Problem: Not Enough Pilots! | The Diplomat



Let me tell you one thing which is AS true as I am Alive

The Indian Armed forces DO not believe in Transparency when it comes to disclosing their strengths
they believe in OBFUSCATION

This is derived from our Epic Maha Bharat 
There is a Term in Maha Bharat " Ashwatthama is DEAD "

This statement is true ; Half truth and a PLAIN LIE all at the same time

This is what our Armed Forces practice to keep the enemies guessing

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Icarus

special said:


> BVR fights, su 30 can carry more weapons that f-16 and the radar coverage of su- is much grater than f-16. so the fist shoot, first kill is in favor of mki.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power



Granted, but I already made mention of this in one of my earlier posts that this model works on the oversimplified assumption that two pilots will meet in the sky and settle things man to man whereas the situation in the air is much more complex and further compounded by the presence of AWACS and ground radars in addition to the full gamut of birds in the sky. In the end, any air to air engagement will be influenced heavily by the who's territory it is being fought on. 
Secondly, the argument has slowly shifted to the MKI whereas my original question was aimed at Stephen about how he feels that the Migs 21 and 29 along with Mirage, incapacitate the entire PAF.



Stephen Cohen said:


> Let me tell you one thing which is AS true as I am Alive
> 
> The Indian Armed DO not believe in Transparency when it comes to disclosing their strengths
> they believe in OBFUSCATION
> 
> This is derived from our Epic Maha Bharat
> There is a Term in Maha Bharat " Ashwatthama is DEAD "
> 
> This statement is true ; Half truth and a PLAIN LIE all at the same time
> 
> This is what our Armed Forces practice to keep the enemies guessing



True, deception is a great tool is standoffs and is practiced universally.


----------



## The Great One

Icarus said:


> I did 15 seconds on my third attempt, but please elucidate how this fits into the argument?


Fighter pilot reaction times are counted in milliseconds. To say that a 50km detection range advantage* '*boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on*'* is sheer baloney. That too when the said fighter pilot is most likely going to be a WSO, that too when he is accompanied by numerous other birds. who can all take the shot and easily turn back (I've seen MKI taking seconds to do an 180, although obviously at subsonic and low FL).



Stephen Cohen said:


> The Indian Armed DO not believe in Transparency when it comes to disclosing their strengths
> they believe in OBFUSCATION


Since you are apparently a civvie just like the rest of us, can it then be assumed that you too haven't seen the full' strengths' and are merely talking out of your ***.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

special said:


> lol, at the time pak air force have 150 JF-17 toys and 70 f-16, indian air force will have 270 su 30mkis.
> su 30 mkis are much superior in capability. SU 27,* the basic model of the su 30 is developed to counter F-15, which is a heavy fighter with more capable than f-16*. so your statement is* just an imagination.* your f-16 are no mach for su-30 and rafael jets. indian air force s technologically and numerically superior to PAF



I like your approach here -- the assumption being

*- Su-30 is better than SU-27 which was developed to counter the F-15 which in turn is a more capable fighter then the F-16. *

Now the reason that I say that I like your approach is because, PAF was amongst the first airforces in the world to have actually gotten simulated kills over the F-15's back in the late 70's (1978 to be precise and the exercise was Shahbaz 78, where we used our F-6 (Mig-19's) and Mirages to achieve some kills on the F-15's) -- and add to that many exercises with the RSAF where we have achieved many simulated kills against the F-15's. Even our non Mlu'd F-16's are far more capable then Mirages, F-6's (too bad they are not in service any more) or F-7's and recently we've known that JF-17 when it was first inducted did go up against our old falcons and "repeatedly beat them"

so *following the same script that you did*, you know how a defeats b and b defeats c, so A must be superior to C -- the conclusion looks somewhat like this

*Since F-15 was defeated by our old mirages/F-6's which are inferior to F-16's which in turn were repeatedly beaten by the JF-17's , and since F-15's answer was the SU-27 by the Russians --- hence just like the MKI, the thunder is superior to the SU-27!!!! *

There is a biological reference to such conclusions --- It's called a "wet dream" 

Have a nice day

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Icarus

The Great One said:


> Fighter pilot reaction times are counted in milliseconds. To say that a 50km detection range advantage* '*boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on*'* is sheer baloney. That too when the said fighter pilot is most likely going to be a WSO, that too when he is accompanied by numerous other birds. who can all take the shot and easily turn back (I've seen MKI taking seconds to do an 180, although obviously at subsonic and low FL).



Yes but also consider the that the opposing side similar characteristics to boot and at super sonic speeds will overcome the lock time difference before the enemy birds turn back and release their missiles, afterwards its a game of dodging the BVRAMs whilst still trying to inch closer for more dependable engagement at about 100 to 70km distance. 
Yes the MKI can flat out and make a complete 180 practically in the same spot, but in an aerial engagement, that leaves it vulnerable to attack and thus a pilot will never try that in a combat situation, where movement means you're still alive and a moment still can end in disaster.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

The Great One said:


> Since you are apparently a civvie just like the rest of us, can it then be assumed that you too haven't seen the full' strengths' and are merely talking out of your ***.



Well you are feel assume what you want 

But dont civvies have friends and relatives 
who can give BROAD hints WITHOUT disclosing state secrets

@Icarus 

Deception is necessary ; because 
* the enemies try to find out your real strength *

They send spies who try to bribe the officials ie the traitors ( the chinks in our armour )

BOTH your spies and our traitors are found out sooner or later 
This is why deception is necessary


----------



## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> *The Mki has a 50km lock advantage over the F-16* which as anyone will tell you, boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on, ultimately, it boils down to a number of factors because the MKI and BLK52 are pretty evenly matched. Your argument on the SU-27 design bases heavily on the assumption that there will be a dog fight, the chances of that happening are next to impossible in today's world.
> So, if a BLK52 and MKI square off, it will depend heavily on who has the home advantage and who has more of their birds up in the air.



Seeing that our respective airbases are in spitting distance of the border areas; it probably won't matter much ! 

It may, however, matter greatly when it comes to naval engagements ! 

Sethi Sahib aaaap tax deteiii nahin hain abbb kiyaa Naval modernization ka saraa burden mein aapneiii tax-returns file kar keh uthaaooon ?


----------



## salwararmy

Armstrong said:


> Seeing that our respective airbases are in spitting distance of the border areas; it probably won't matter much !
> 
> It may, however, matter greatly when it comes to naval engagements !
> 
> Sethi Sahib aaaap tax deteiii nahin hain abbb kiyaa Naval modernization ka saraa burden mein aapneiii tax-returns file kar keh uthaaooon ?


you are correct. No Fighter not even a 10 Generation Fighter can match F-16.
SU30 MKI is worst plane ever & that is braided stars by low quality Indian Pilots. Indian Pilots never sleep because of fear.
I concur.


----------



## Armstrong

salwararmy said:


> you are correct. No Fighter not even a 10 Generation Fighter can match F-16.
> SU30 MKI is worst plane ever & that is braided stars by low quality Indian Pilots. Indian Pilots never sleep because of fear.
> I concur.



Auntie Jee itnaa ghussaaa aur sarcasm ?


----------



## salwararmy

Windjammer said:


> *'British Typhoons whacked India's Sukhois in joint exercises' | TwoCircles.net*



Correct...just an extract from the Link you have posted:

"Well, they lost," was Stephen Dalton's response when IANS asked how the Russia-developed India-manufactured Su-30MKI air superiority jets performed against the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Typhoons when they matched their wits during the joint exercises in recent years.
However, he was quick to add that the two aircraft are different in technologies, and that *Typhoons are next generation, and hence there is no comparison"*



Armstrong said:


> Auntie Jee itnaa ghussaaa aur sarcasm ?


Nahin Mullah ji,, I agree totally with you. You see i even not posted any Smiley..Its not Sarcasm. I fully agree with you.


----------



## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> I did 15 seconds on my third attempt, but please elucidate how this fits into the argument?



I merely managed 3 seconds !  

What exactly is this test supposed to establish ? Reflexes or something else ?


----------



## Manticore

So, what will be the RCS of a huge + canard + 12 missile su30 vs a 4 missiles f16? What effect will it have on the respective detection ranges?


----------



## The Great One

Icarus said:


> Yes but also consider the that the opposing side similar characteristics to boot and at super sonic speeds will overcome the lock time difference before the enemy birds turn back and release their missiles, afterwards its a game of dodging the BVRAMs whilst still trying to inch closer for more dependable engagement at about 100 to 70km distance.


You just said that the opposing side is going to be at a (massive) disadvantage in the 'First Look, First Shot, First Kill' department. Then what similar characteristics? At any rate, that (50km) is just a fictional number and all our internet fanboy analysis, where we so feverishly compare track range and made-up RCS values that we completely miss out on things such as that once you are EM active, your position is gone and you are vulnerable to missiles with HOJ capability or that even if your position is indeed gone or even if the Sukhoi can track stuff at 200km out, it doesn't have any missile with that range let alone one with that NEZ and etc. etc. After reading gambits and other pros posts, I feel stupid.


Icarus said:


> Yes the MKI can flat out and make a complete 180 practically in the same spot, but in an aerial engagement, that leaves it vulnerable to attack and thus a pilot will never try that in a combat situation, where movement means you're still alive and a moment still can end in disaster.


Vulnerable to attack? We are talking BVR or what. 
Anyway you should have seen the thing. Jumping around like a little rabbit. It did die for a second after the stall but it didn't fall as Youtube Terry said in his Youtube video, just jack rabbited out of there.



Armstrong said:


> I merely managed 3 seconds !
> 
> What exactly is this test supposed to establish ? Reflexes or something else ?


Its a game launched by the aviators to remind us that no matter what we do, we'll never be as awesome

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

F16/52.great war plane. No doubting.

But paf have one single sqn. Ie 18.only.

Thank god you guys are inducting thunders and not more block52,falcons.

Your mlu falcons are warn out Machines.

We dont. Worry about them too much.

Take a brand new su30mki over a second hand Jordanaian falcon anyday


----------



## special

abdulbarijan said:


> I like your approach here -- the assumption being
> 
> *- Su-30 is better than SU-27 which was developed to counter the F-15 which in turn is a more capable fighter then the F-16. *
> 
> Now the reason that I say that I like your approach is because, PAF was amongst the first airforces in the world to have actually gotten simulated kills over the F-15's back in the late 70's (1978 to be precise and the exercise was Shahbaz 78, where we used our F-6 (Mig-19's) and Mirages to achieve some kills on the F-15's) -- and add to that many exercises with the RSAF where we have achieved many simulated kills against the F-15's. Even our non Mlu'd F-16's are far more capable then Mirages, F-6's (too bad they are not in service any more) or F-7's and recently we've known that JF-17 when it was first inducted did go up against our old falcons and "repeatedly beat them"
> 
> so *following the same script that you did*, you know how a defeats b and b defeats c, so A must be superior to C -- the conclusion looks somewhat like this
> 
> *Since F-15 was defeated by our old mirages/F-6's which are inferior to F-16's which in turn were repeatedly beaten by the JF-17's , and since F-15's answer was the SU-27 by the Russians --- hence just like the MKI, the thunder is superior to the SU-27!!!! *
> 
> There is a biological reference to such conclusions --- It's called a "wet dream"
> 
> Have a nice day



in training excercise cope india 04 indian mig 21 defeated f-16 and f-15.. so mig 21 is superior to f-16 and f-15.

you don't understand what i said.
read this articles written by some professionals, it will helps you to understand. and one more thing, china also uses su 30, but they didn't want any jf-17s. if you think that china just reject jf-17 over an inferior plan su 30. then i don't want to say anything to you
Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power


----------



## Psychic

Storm Force said:


> Your mlu falcons are warn out Machines.


Our f-16 mlu's are upgraded to *block 40* standards. They can fire aim-120 C5.


----------



## special

Icarus said:


> the argument has slowly shifted to the MKI whereas my original question was aimed at Stephen about how he feels that the Migs 21 and 29 along with Mirage, incapacitate the entire PAF.



indian air force will never send mig-21 to engage paf top end fighters in pakistan air space, it will be a combination of PAK FA(it will introduced in 2018), su 30 mki, and mig 29 then rafael and tajes will play a ground attack role. mig 21 may act as interceptor(migs are going to retair in 2017) which will fly within the indian air space.


----------



## Erroroverload

BLK 52 has slight edge over SU 30 MKI because SU 30 MKI when loaded has RCS of about 15m2 huge disadvantage,
while BLK 52 and our MLU'BLK 40 can fire aim-120, the only difference is quantity that IAF has,
now IAF is getting Rafale, a big difference between two air forces.


----------



## Manticore

Psychic said:


> Our f-16 mlu's are upgraded to *block 40* standards. They can fire aim-120 C5.



its a customised upgrade and better than blk40 
Falcon Star upgrade for the airframe life is done on all of them

PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52+ prospects

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Psychic

Manticore said:


> its a customised upgrade and better than blk40
> Falcon Star upgrade for the airframe life is done on all of them
> 
> PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52+ prospects


I just wanted to reply the person saying that mlu's are outdated. 
Not an expert so I approximated the upgrades of our mlu's.


----------



## tahir195

jatt said:


> I don't care about the radars. The R-77 vs AMRAAM is the the big what if. The Falcon can hold its own in BVR, or air to air. But the SU-30MKI bombs better and has a higher endurance. Lets say the Falcon has a even chance. The Flankers or IAF still outnumber PAF, easily, ontop of that the Falcons can only hold a defensive postion due to the increasing air shield of India. Longer range of SAMS means that India doesn't need to send aircraft to deal with aircraft. S-300 SAMs have a estimated range of 200 km. SAMS are also catching up. Ontop of that the range of indian missiles from ballistic to cruise are stocking up on the border. Cold START could just might as well be a realise of artillery to dystroy Pakistani defence assets.


in this case PAKISTAN also got HQ-9 & HQ-16 better than S-3600 and remember it is easy to detect su-30 rather than F-16

and the thread is open for air to air or dog fight scenario don't involve sams in to this


----------



## abdulbarijan

special said:


> in training excercise cope india 04 indian mig 21 defeated f-16 and f-15.. so mig 21 is superior to f-16 and f-15.
> 
> you don't understand what i said.
> read this articles written by some professionals, it will helps you to understand. and one more thing, china also uses su 30, but they didn't want any jf-17s. if you think that china just reject jf-17 over an inferior plan su 30. then i don't want to say anything to you
> Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power



Well thank you for negating your very own argument --- suffice to say you wont mention Red flag 08 here, but my entire point revolved around your assumption of A vs B vs C, and the conclusion of A being better then C because A is better than B and B is better than C which you yourself negated right now ....

As far as the JF-17 is concerned, you seem to miss the obvious sarcasm in my post, but I guess I'll play along for a while, you see while the fanboys at your side continue to boost away at how absolutely awesome the IAF is, the facts are a bit grimmer in reality, in the past decade where we "officially" didn't posses the BVR capability your airforce and all your media was bantering on about how the IAF would carry out surgical strikes, and we all know how that went ....

Lets be real for a second though, *nobody serious on here doubts the fact that IAF possesses technological and numerical superiority over PAF, but will that translate in to an air victory if the two air forces were to go on head to head ??* -- and that is the million dollar question -- whose answer everybody wants to know, but cant unless an air war does occur and nobody wants that ---



special said:


> indian air force will never send mig-21 to engage paf top end fighters in pakistan air space, it will be a combination of PAK FA(it will introduced in 2018), su 30 mki, and mig 29 then rafael and tajes will play a ground attack role. mig 21 may act as interceptor(migs are going to retair in 2017) which will fly within the indian air space.



Wow, a very good strategy --- just 1 little problem here --- Its based on the assumption that 3 new platforms WILL join the IAF in the immediate future (2-3 years), which in view of the recent history is quite unlikely --

But I would like to seriously ask you this question, *how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years* while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...


----------



## airmarshal

Shouldnt the comparison be between MiG-29 and F-16? Su-30 MKI is a different class of fighter jet. 

It would be better if both sides leave jingoism for another thread and just compare the machines.


----------



## The_Sidewinder

abdulbarijan said:


> Well thank you for negating your very own argument --- suffice to say you wont mention Red flag 08 here, but my entire point revolved around your assumption of A vs B vs C, and the conclusion of A being better then C because A is better than B and B is better than C which you yourself negated right now ....
> 
> As far as the JF-17 is concerned, you seem to miss the obvious sarcasm in my post, but I guess I'll play along for a while, you see while the fanboys at your side continue to boost away at how absolutely awesome the IAF is, the facts are a bit grimmer in reality, in the past decade where we "officially" didn't posses the BVR capability your airforce and all your media was bantering on about how the IAF would carry out surgical strikes, and we all know how that went ....
> 
> Lets be real for a second though, *nobody serious on here doubts the fact that IAF possesses technological and numerical superiority over PAF, but will that translate in to an air victory if the two air forces were to go on head to head ??* -- and that is the million dollar question -- whose answer everybody wants to know, but cant unless an air war does occur and nobody wants that ---



A sane reply. We never know for sure till these aircrafts meets each other in the battlefield.



> Wow, a very good strategy --- just 1 little problem here --- Its based on the assumption that 3 new platforms WILL join the IAF in the immediate future (2-3 years), which in view of the recent history is quite unlikely --
> 
> But I would like to seriously ask you this question, *how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years* while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...



I think till now only 120 odd bisons are in service which are bvr capable. MMRCA has been cut down to 36 for the moment but rest asured a minimum of 6 squadrons will be inducted taking into account aquisition history of IAF. About Pak-fa part , we all know till Chineese J31 or J20 close to become operational, theres no need for IAF to get rusty about FGFA. But plans are already in place to fast track FGFA project. If applied well it can become a masterstroke on DMs part.


----------



## Agent_47

Icarus said:


> another invisible problem that is plaguing the IAF at the moment gives us a momentary edge to capitalize upon during this time of transition.
> 
> The Indian Air Force’s Big Problem: Not Enough Pilots! | The Diplomat


Yeah, pray for the invisible problem.That is your only chance.
That is a report from "Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence" , they exist to find faults and exaggerate so that we can solve it fast.
Last time the report said that total sq number will dip to 22 in ten years !


----------



## kollang

Well, I think Su-30 fleet of Indian air force is superior to F-16 fleet of Pakistan air force both in quality and quantity.but is it ultimate superiority? I dont think so.

As an historical instance, in 1967 Arabs had superior air force but it was Israel who won the air campaign.they could make a good use of their fighter jets.I am not trying to insult Indians by comparing them with Arabs.I want to remind them that PAF has some highly skilled pilots and their F-16 block 52s can give them all necessary tools in a combat.plus dont forget that they may get some J-10Bs which are very advanced and usefull.

Anyway IAF will receive Rafale and PAKFA very soon.those fighters will definitely turn the table.


----------



## kaykay

I think more appropriate comparison would be between Mig-29UPG/Mirage 2K5 and F-16 block 52.


----------



## Storm Force

To be honest the F16 both the block52/ and the MLU fighters are very dangerous opponents.

WHATS MORE THE PAF has great experience in using them.

For me although they only no 73 PLANES they are 70% OF THE PAF capability.

IF IAF is to break the PAF and win air supremacy then they have to take out the bulk of the falcons..

Not easy but I have serveral reasons for thinking it can be done.
___________________________________________________________________________________
1. The IAF have today over 200 OPERATIONAL su30mki . despite the RCS disadvantage its a beast of fighter.

Tvc twin engines ,pesa radars, israeli elta jammers. mix of infa red & semi active BVRs , HMS and IRST as standard. .

its a beast so much in its huge airframe.

2. The MIG29 smt & Mirage2000/5 and the new MIG29K give IAF another 150 PLATFORMS THAT ARE if not equal dare I say very close to the formidable falcons...

That makes the ratio 350 IAF top line fighters V 73 falcons = imo too much for even the brilliant PAF pilots...

3. THE JFT thunder imo is not anywhere close to quality maturity brute power of any of the

Falcons PAF.
Su30mki, Mirage 2000/5 mig29k or SMT.

I AM NOT BELITTLING the Thunder but it lacks in some seious ways.

It will be over powered by the twin engine russiuan flankers/mig29

And will technology inferior to the upgraded RC400/MICA combo with new French HMD on the Mirage2000/5

" FALCONS IS WHAT WILL BREAKTHE IAF ONSLAUGHT" if it happens


----------



## Matrixx

airmarshal said:


> Shouldnt the comparison be between MiG-29 and F-16? Su-30 MKI is a different class of fighter jet.
> 
> It would be better if both sides leave jingoism for another thread and just compare the machines.


yes I agree.... MiG-29 and F-16 are in same class and use similar engines



abdulbarijan said:


> Well thank you for negating your very own argument --- suffice to say you wont mention Red flag 08 here, but my entire point revolved around your assumption of A vs B vs C, and the conclusion of A being better then C because A is better than B and B is better than C which you yourself negated right now ....
> 
> As far as the JF-17 is concerned, you seem to miss the obvious sarcasm in my post, but I guess I'll play along for a while, you see while the fanboys at your side continue to boost away at how absolutely awesome the IAF is, the facts are a bit grimmer in reality, in the past decade where we "officially" didn't posses the BVR capability your airforce and all your media was bantering on about how the IAF would carry out surgical strikes, and we all know how that went ....
> 
> Lets be real for a second though, *nobody serious on here doubts the fact that IAF possesses technological and numerical superiority over PAF, but will that translate in to an air victory if the two air forces were to go on head to head ??* -- and that is the million dollar question -- whose answer everybody wants to know, but cant unless an air war does occur and nobody wants that ---
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, a very good strategy --- just 1 little problem here --- Its based on the assumption that 3 new platforms WILL join the IAF in the immediate future (2-3 years), which in view of the recent history is quite unlikely --
> 
> But I would like to seriously ask you this question, *how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years* while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...


yes 2 years are less to replace all Mig 21 but may be in 5 years
in 2 years may be 50 LCA, 30 Rafale, 400 Su30 etc
in 5 Years may be 100 PAK FA, 200 LCA, 36 Rafale 400 Su30, zero Mig 21


----------



## special

abdulbarijan said:


> But I would like to seriously ask you this question, *how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years* while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...



mig 21 will be completely replaced with tajes in 4 years. retirement will start from 2017. india will receive pak fa initially, just like SU 30 mk IAF received in 2000. no of MMRCA didn't cut down, negotiation is still in progress. 36 is just for giving enough time for air force for negotiation and to maintain qualitative edge. 36 no. of rafael have noting to do with MMRCA negotiations.


----------



## sathya

Matrixx said:


> *in 2 years may be 50 LCA, 30 Rafale, 400 Su30 etc*
> in 5 Years may be *100 PAK FA*, *200 LC*A, 36 Rafale *400* Su30, zero Mig 21



mate had you followed our defense forces, u should know by now that even in emergency acquisitions, timeline you have given is not possible..

by 2020 , we can be sure to get

40+ LCAs mk1 
36+ Rafales
All Su 30 mki s i think = 278

we should consider our-self lucky if MODI does a Paris in Moscow ! and get a PAK FA before 2020. 

if will be far fetched to even to predict after 2020.


----------



## Windjammer

During an exercise between J-11s and JF-17s, the Thunder would repeatedly pick up the huge RCS of the clean J-11 before it detected the smaller fighter, by that time JF-17 would have already launched a simulated missile attack and broken off. What to say of an engagement between the subjects. Does anyone have a clue the size of RCS the MKI generates even in the clean configuration.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

special said:


> *mig 21 will be completely replaced with tajes in 4 years*. retirement will start from 2017. *india will receive pak fa initially*, just like SU 30 mk IAF received in 2000. no of MMRCA didn't cut down, negotiation is still in progress. 36 is just for giving enough time for air force for negotiation and to maintain qualitative edge. 36 no. of rafael have noting to do with MMRCA negotiations.





Matrixx said:


> yes I agree.... MiG-29 and F-16 are in same class and use similar engines
> 
> 
> yes 2 years are less to *replace all Mig 21 but may be in 5 years*
> in* 2 years may be 50 LCA, 30 Rafale, 400 Su30 etc*
> in* 5 Years may be 100 PAK FA, 200 LCA, 36 Rafale 400 Su30, zero Mig 21*




There is an obvious pattern here, it involves day dreaming, wet dreaming and delusions ---

Last I heard the full order of 272 MKI aircrafts was supposed to be fulfilled by 2019 thanks to the delays etc, the 5th generation PAK-Fa was delayed and even with "fast tracking" do you really think you could produce 100 examples of a jet in 5 years which isn't even currently in service with its manufacturer , LCA hasn't even achieved its FOC yet and you've already replaced your Mig-21's with it in 2017 ---

I mean like, *optimism is good but what you guys are suggesting is that your airforce will induct more fighter jets in 5 years then it has in 2 decades combined* and that too involves jets that haven't even put in service by their manufacturers as yet or are still struggling with their clearances---


Air Force likely to get entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019 | Business Standard News
LCA's Certification to be Slightly Delayed -The New Indian Express
T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet project with Russia hits turbulence : North, News - India Today


----------



## sathya

abdulbarijan said:


> There is an obvious pattern here, it involves day dreaming, wet dreaming and delusions ---
> 
> Last I heard the full order of 272 MKI aircrafts was supposed to be fulfilled by 2019 thanks to the delays etc, the 5th generation PAK-Fa was delayed and even with "fast tracking" do you really think you could produce 100 examples of a jet in 5 years which isn't even currently in service with its manufacturer , LCA hasn't even achieved its FOC yet and you've already replaced your Mig-21's with it in 2017 ---
> 
> I mean like, *optimism is good but what you guys are suggesting is that your airforce will induct more fighter jets in 5 years then it has in 2 decades combined* and that too involves jets that haven't even put in service by their manufacturers as yet or are still struggling with their clearances---
> 
> 
> Air Force likely to get entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019 | Business Standard News
> LCA's Certification to be Slightly Delayed -The New Indian Express
> T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet project with Russia hits turbulence : North, News - India Today



i agree with you, but look at the quality of aircrafts we ll get after 2020

tejas mk2 = falcons standard, in numbers will become the baseline plane
pak fa = stealth beast 
more Rafales + or -

and i have not mentioned about super sukhoi 30 upgrades now. 
since not much credible info available right now.


----------



## abdulbarijan

sathya said:


> i agree with you, but look at the quality of aircrafts we ll get after 2020
> 
> tejas mk2 = falcons standard, in numbers will become the baseline plane
> pak fa = stealth beast
> more Rafales + or -
> 
> and i have not mentioned about super sukhoi 30 upgrades now.
> since not much credible info available right now.



Too many ifs and buts and too many projects at once --

Look at the number of programs your defense industry is running, super sukhoi, MMRCA, LCA and then the FGFA and we've seen delays in each and every one of them, now you can talk about the quality of the product, which is not really in doubt, I mean the MKI is superior to anything the PAF fields today, but what you fail to realize is that -- with your regular delays you don't just damage your own airforce, you in turn present *a window of opportunity to PAF* which in a limited budget has negated practically every major advantage the IAF held over it in the past decade i.e from BVRAAM's to force multipliers like AWACS or C4i etc.

With that being said, I see the general attitude towards the JF-17 from the Indian side and I know for a fact that you guys don't think much of it, and I know that there are some in our side that would compare it with an F-22 if they had to, I dont know if you guys realize it or not, either way the JF-17 has been a game changer -- now the PAF has an aircraft with mid tier 4th generation capabilities which can replace its old aircrafts in a very cost effective way and provide us with a generation leap over what we previously fielded (F-7's, A-5's or Mirage III/V's) -- so the overall ability of the PAF is not only growing, but its growing in a *very cost effective *way, not only that but its a safe bet because it is *virtually sanction proof,* which provides us with the opportunity to invest in other projects like the chinese stealth project etc. finally closing the technological gap that the IAF was able to put thanks to our inefficiencies and ineffectiveness in the lost decade of the 90's.


----------



## skynet

Windjammer said:


> During an exercise between J-11s and JF-17s, the Thunder would repeatedly pick up the huge RCS of the clean J-11 before it detected the smaller fighter, by that time JF-17 would have already launched a simulated missile attack and broken off. What to say of an engagement between the subjects. Does anyone have a clue the size of RCS the MKI generates even in the clean configuration.


and you got that from??


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

The current Russian BVR's in indian inventory have a 90% kill ratio at 40% of their total range---otoh---the aim has 95 % kill ratio at 70% of its max range and the PL12 has 95 % kill ratio at 60% of its max range.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Storm Force

Mica has a 90%,kill ratio at sixty km.

We can all play with nos.


----------



## sathya

we haven decided on BVR missile for rafales ?
mica or meteor?


----------



## cerberus

sathya said:


> we haven decided on BVR missile for rafales ?
> mica or meteor?


mica is Standard BVR for Rafale maybe last Squadron will get Meteor


----------



## special

abdulbarijan said:


> There is an obvious pattern here, it involves day dreaming, wet dreaming and delusions ---
> 
> Last I heard the full order of 272 MKI aircrafts was supposed to be fulfilled by 2019 thanks to the delays etc, the 5th generation PAK-Fa was delayed and even with "fast tracking" do you really think you could produce 100 examples of a jet in 5 years which isn't even currently in service with its manufacturer , LCA hasn't even achieved its FOC yet and you've already replaced your Mig-21's with it in 2017 ---
> 
> I mean like, *optimism is good but what you guys are suggesting is that your airforce will induct more fighter jets in 5 years then it has in 2 decades combined* and that too involves jets that haven't even put in service by their manufacturers as yet or are still struggling with their clearances---
> 
> 
> Air Force likely to get entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019 | Business Standard News
> LCA's Certification to be Slightly Delayed -The New Indian Express
> T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet project with Russia hits turbulence : North, News - India Today



don't you now that tajes is now under production and IAF start receiving the tajes into its operational squanders. it is the FOC which is get delayed.
FGFA project get delayed, but india will get PAK FA till the FGFA is ready.


----------



## abdulbarijan

special said:


> *don't you now that tajes is now under production and IAF start receiving the tajes into its operational squanders*. it is the FOC which is get delayed.
> FGFA project get delayed, but india will get PAK FA till the FGFA is ready.



I didn't actually --- well anyways, looking back at the history of delays -- do you really think HAL will achieve a 16A/C per year to even complete the MK-1 by 2018 and here you are claiming this



special said:


> *mig 21 will be completely replaced with tajes in 4 years*. retirement will start from 2017. india will receive pak fa initially, just like SU 30 mk IAF received in 2000. no of MMRCA didn't cut down, negotiation is still in progress. 36 is just for giving enough time for air force for negotiation and to maintain qualitative edge. 36 no. of rafael have noting to do with MMRCA negotiations.




and how about you explain how a "still in testing" Pak-Fa will be in *SERVICE* with the IAF in the immediate future --- when even the Russians haven't inducted it as of yet ...

As of now the estimates you present seem more like delusions then estimates --


----------



## Sinnerman108

special said:


> lol, at the time pak air force have 150 JF-17 toys and 70 f-16, indian air force will have 270 su 30mkis.
> su 30 mkis are much superior in capability. SU 27, the basic model of the su 30 is developed to counter F-15, which is a heavy fighter with more capable than f-16. so your statement is just an imagination. your f-16 are no mach for su-30 and rafael jets. indian air force s technologically and numerically superior to PAF



It is funny you are quoting recent future.

India has seen use of guided arrows, and MIRV trishuls since thousands of years ago.

I don't know why no one in India tries to go after that technology; why are indians running after outside technology ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Thunder.Storm

ptldM3 said:


> *
> The SU-30 can track targets as far away as 350km, and bombers as far as 400km, how does the F-16's radar compair?*


290 kms see wikipedia


----------



## special

Sinnerman108 said:


> It is funny you are quoting recent future.
> 
> India has seen use of guided arrows, and MIRV trishuls since thousands of years ago.
> 
> I don't know why no one in India tries to go after that technology; why are indians running after outside technology ?


----------



## Dazzler

special said:


> don't you now that tajes is now under production and IAF start receiving the tajes into its operational squanders. it is the FOC which is get delayed.
> FGFA project get delayed, but india will get PAK FA till the FGFA is ready.



They delivered 1 aircraft in 6 years and here you are expecting the unexpected.


----------



## special

abdulbarijan said:


> and how about you explain how a "still in testing" Pak-Fa will be in *SERVICE* with the IAF in the immediate future --- when even the Russians haven't inducted it as of yet ...
> 
> As of now the estimates you present seem more like delusions then estimates --



pak fa will enter RuAF very soon, may be in 2017


----------



## Dazzler

special said:


> pak fa will enter RuAF very soon, may be in 2017



Thump ur chest when it does, for now, its nothing more than a test aircraft with plenty of complains attached .


----------



## special

Dazzler said:


> They delivered 1 aircraft in 6 years and here you are expecting the unexpected.



don't you know that the aircraft similar to SU 30 mki entered into RuAF recently. while indian air force introduce it in 2000s..
russia is not US, it don't matter if the PAk FA is introduced in RuAF or not, it will be in indian air force before 2020.



Dazzler said:


> Thump ur chest when it does, for now, its nothing more than a test aircraft with plenty of complains attached .


every aircraft will have to face complains, it don't mean that the aircraft is not going to introduce in time.


----------



## Neemo neemo

Sinnerman108 said:


> It is funny you are quoting recent future.
> 
> India has seen use of guided arrows, and MIRV trishuls since thousands of years ago.
> 
> I don't know why no one in India tries to go after that technology; why are indians running after outside technology ?


Your usual ranting about vedic tech is Off-Topic but since you are hell bent on trolling, let me tell you we do it Because we got money to buy. We do not have to depend of foreign aid which comes with drone killings.


----------



## Dazzler

special said:


> don't you know that the aircraft similar to SU 30 mki entered into RuAF recently. while indian air force introduce it in 2000s..
> russia is not US, it don't matter if the PAk FA is introduced in RuAF or not, it will be in indian air force before 2020.
> 
> 
> every aircraft will have to face complains, it don't mean that the aircraft is not going to introduce in time.



U seem like a U turn specialist switching arguments per post


----------



## Thunder.Storm

sathya said:


> i agree with you, but look at the quality of aircrafts we ll get after 2020
> 
> tejas mk2 = falcons standard, in numbers will become the baseline plane
> pak fa = stealth beast
> more Rafales + or -
> 
> and i have not mentioned about super sukhoi 30 upgrades now.
> since not much credible info available right now.


You have your su-30,PAKFA in mind but you don't know that PAF negotiations with china is in progress about 3 squadrons of j-31 (50 fighters) and 40 to 50 jets of j-10's. And our own jf-17 thunder block 3 is also coming soon. jf-17 block 3 is delaying bcz paf is waiting for ws-13 engine and aesa radar(which are in testing process), as radar and engine get ready they will get it out.


----------



## special

Dazzler said:


> U seem like a U turn specialist switching arguments per post


??


----------



## abdulbarijan

special said:


> *pak fa will enter RuAF very soon, may be in 2017*





special said:


> *don't you know that the aircraft similar to SU 30 mki entered into RuAF recently. while indian air force introduce it in 2000s..*
> russia is not US, *it don't matter if the PAk FA is introduced in RuAF or not, it will be in indian air force before 2020.*
> 
> 
> *every aircraft will have to face complains, it don't mean that the aircraft is not going to introduce in time*.



*What makes you think that Russia will end up giving you guys the Pak-Fa even before it introduces it in the service of its own air force and especially when its the very weapon that will even up the generation gap between the USAF and the Russian AF* ---

Now lastly, I wont say that go read an article written by a pro, All I'll say is open up a basic management sciences or project management book and so that you may understand, that dissatisfaction/complaints of the customer (in this case the IAF) is INDEED amongst one of the many reasons why projects( in this case LCA) are delayed time and again ---


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Sinnerman108 said:


> It is funny you are quoting recent future.
> 
> India has seen use of guided arrows, and MIRV trishuls since thousands of years ago.
> 
> I don't know why no one in India tries to go after that technology; why are indians running after outside technology ?


 What a reply MAZA AAGAYA

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HRK

Sorry to say just noticed its 2010 thread & the below post which I replied is dated 22 Jan 2010 (I saw the post # 339, therefore decide to reply)..... but the question is why this thread is still active .... 
===============================


ptldM3 said:


> *
> The SU-30 can track targets as far away as 350km, and bombers as far as 400km, how does the F-16's radar compair?*



Related Specifications from the website f the developer of BARS radar of SU-30

Quote:

Radar control system "BARS" for *Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM *fighters

"*Air-to-Air*" mode:

Detection range for a *MiG-29 type fighter* in 300 sq.deg. scanning zone is as follows:

at* head-on *courses - *up to 140 km*;
at *trailing* courses -* up to 60 km*.
"*Air-to-Ground*" mode:

Detection ranges are as follows

of a railway bridge: 80..120 km.;
of a group of tanks: 40..50 km.;
of a torpedo-boat destroyer: 80..120 km.;
of an *aircraft carrier*: *250 km*.
Radar control system "BARS" for Su-30MKI, Su-30MKA, Su-30MKM fighters Unquote

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## pkd

What is the maximum range of Russian BVR Missile?


----------



## Sinnerman108

Neemo neemo said:


> Your usual ranting about vedic tech is Off-Topic but since you are hell bent on trolling, let me tell you we do it Because we got money to buy. We do not have to depend of foreign aid which comes with drone killings.



Ok,
In the interest of the thread, I will not reply further.
Maybe in the stupid and funny section.
@mods please do delete these posts


----------



## MadDog

Haha some Indians tend to be so funny, on their forums they are claiming that their old Mig 21's and LCA's would take out F-16 Blk 52's and MLU F-16's, and JF 17 is non existent plane it won't be a threat, man, these guys on bharat rakshak are way too f****d in the head LMAO

"however these A/B's with PAF are quite old and though they have been upgraded




i am not sure how they will hold up against the newer LCAs or other aircrafts of IAF. PAF had trouble maintaining these F 16s for many years now. is it sorted?" Bharat Rakshak • View topic - LCA Tejas: News and Discussions


----------

