# Iran tests home-made stealth fighter



## mean_bird

*Iran tests home-made stealth fighter​*
TEHRAN, Feb. 7 (Xinhua) -- *An Iranian air force commander said Sunday that Iran has successfully tested the prototype of its first domestically-built stealth fighter*, the English-language satellite Press TV reported.

"The plane, due to its physical attributes and the material used in its body, cannot be detected by any radar," Brigadier General Aziz Nasirzadeh, the force's coordination deputy, was quoted as saying.

Nasirzadeh said data from the test flight was favorable and the air force will move forward with its plans to produce *the plane called Sofreh Mahi*, which means Manta Ray, the report said.

However, he said that the production process will not be rushed as such complex systems need thorough analysis and exhaustive testing.

According to Press TV, Iran on Wednesday successfully test- fired a satellite rocket and unveiled three new satellites and a satellite carrier to mark the 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution.


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## FreekiN

deleted to save space

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## mean_bird

*Iran Successfully Tests 1st Radar-Evading Aircraft ​*

TEHRAN (FNA)- Iran has successfully tested the *research model* of its first home-made radar-evading aircraft named *'Sofreh Mahi'(flatfish)*, a senior Iranian army commander announced on Sunday.

"The research model of this plane which *staged a successful flight passed all radar-evading tests that we desired*," Lieutenant Commander of the Iranian Army Air Force General Aziz Nasirzadeh told FNA.

The General said that *the flatfish-inspired shape of the aircraft as well as the materials used in its structure have provided the aircraft with the radar-evading capability.*

He also announced that once the aircraft passes further tests and its features and capabilities are completed, the Defense Ministry will start its mass production.

Production of the actual size as well as mounting and testing weapons and a number of systems on the aircraft are the next phases before we can start its mass production, Nasirzadeh said.

Iran in June successfully tested a home-made radar-evading Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) with bombing capabilities.

"This airplane is a model drone built on a one-seventh scale for the defense ministry," Commander of the Iranian Army Air Force General Hassan Shah Safi said, adding that the UAV bomber would be produced in virtual size and would join the Iranian Air Force fleet in the near future.

He explained that the UAV has been designed and manufactured for reconnaissance and bombing missions, considering its radar-evading capability. 

***********************​Sorry I opened it here, can a mod please move it to a more appropriate section?

Would be interesting (and funny) to see this fighter/UAV/scale model (whatever it is) and how "stealthy" it is.


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## Skywalker

mean_bird said:


> *Iran tests home-made stealth fighter​*
> TEHRAN, Feb. 7 (Xinhua) -- *An Iranian air force commander said Sunday that Iran has successfully tested the prototype of its first domestically-built stealth fighter*, the English-language satellite Press TV reported.
> 
> "*The plane, due to its physical attributes and the material used in its body, cannot be detected by any radar*," Brigadier General Aziz Nasirzadeh, the force's coordination deputy, was quoted as saying.
> 
> Nasirzadeh said data from the test flight was favorable and the air force will move forward with its plans to produce *the plane called Sofreh Mahi*, which means Manta Ray, the report said.
> 
> However, he said that the production process will not be rushed as such complex systems need thorough analysis and exhaustive testing.
> 
> According to Press TV, Iran on Wednesday successfully test- fired a satellite rocket and unveiled three new satellites and a satellite carrier to mark the 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution.



Oh my God , Iranians are never short of any BS. What happened to to so called indegeneous aircraft they tested earlier...all crap and BS, this press TV is another Bs and propaganda machine for Iranian Mullahs.

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## Aeri-Eye

Any pics? I doubt it!


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## Vassnti

It is said a breakthrough in celulose technology is the secret behind the new planes unique stealth capability. 

This airplane is a model drone built on a one-seventh scale for the defense ministry



Come on invisible fighters, stealth drones an invincible aa system, yes Irans technology is leaping ahead but the claims that they are now ahead of the US, China and Russia in a few short years lacks credability.

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## Hyde

Aeri-Eye said:


> Any pics? I doubt it!



its a stealth aircraft....... so probably no pics 

well i wish they have made the aircraft but i highly doubt it

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Great peaceful nation of Persia don't know why ppl don't like Iran 

They don't attack anyone, they live in their country , they love sports 

And they also take part in peaceful debate

Yet the world just does not like Persian civilization to stand up and be noted for its achivemets.

Great wonderful achievement by Iran - and its engineer heart warming to see them do so well , hopefully the trade with  

Wonderful people great nation - peace loving people that speak out when they see unjust in world true honor

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Behold the latest Iranian stealth fighter ..!

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## Vassnti

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Great peaceful nation of Persia don't know why ppl don't like Iran
> 
> They don't attack anyone, they live in their country , they love sports
> 
> And they also take part in peaceful debate
> 
> Yet the world just does not like Persian civilization to stand up and be noted for its achivemets.
> 
> Great wonderful achievement by Iran - and its engineer heart warming to see them do so well , hopefully the trade with
> 
> Wonderful people great nation - peace loving people that speak out when they see unjust in world true honor



Its not a matter of liking or not liking its a matter of the continued string of anouncments that Iran has produced the best xxxx in the world is just a little unbelivable. 

From the op i was assuming this is a new "bat shaped" stealth fighter not a test flight of the Shafaq which i assume is the pic in your reply?
But the Shafaq is a good example of Iraninan technology, russian design russian construction team but its a Iranian plane. It just happens to look a lot like a yak 130.


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## pak-yes

Although IRAN should avoid this Propaganda and try to accept the Truth.

But we and all other Muslims around the world should realize that IRAN is perhaps in the most terrible shape when it comes to technology.They can't Import anything from anywhere around the world.

They do not have relations with either a single Weapons center in the world.(USA,EU,China and to some extent Russia)

So Perhaps their Indigenous efforts are greater than all the combined efforts of the all the Muslims around the world.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The picture of jet shown is not the new fighter.Its a light weight jet jointly built by russia and iran.


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## TechLahore

It is not necessary to poke fun at Iran's achievements. We should be supportive of whatever progress they have achieved, regardless of whether it is as significant as has been claimed. Something is better than nothing and many thousands of engineers in Iran are working hard to improve their capabilities and technology...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

CONGRATS TO IRAN.GOOD TO SEE A MUSLIM BRADAR COUNTRY MAKING PROGRESS.

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## Kompromat

*I just cannot understand why some people here are just being " Super stupid " and think that they are the best inc some Pakistanis here .

What makes a man special is not his " brain " it is " how they use it ".

If you guys are sarcastic about Iran & about their capabilities then i must say i just can condemn it . One man can change the course of history " get it in your brains first ".

I think Iranians have some sort of talent and they are as good as everyone else .

Indians should stop making fun of it because they are just too dumb to make an indigenous 4th gen Fighter for last 30 years.

Here is the source & now Stop BSing and try to conclude the debate. *




*Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
Tehran Times Political Desk*

TEHRAN -- Air Force Commander Brigadier General Ahmad Miqani said here on Monday that Iran has launched the project to manufacture stealth aircrafts. 

&#8220;We have finished the design of stealth aircraft which cannot to be detected even by advanced radar systems, and the primary stages of its manufacture have started,&#8221; Miqani told reporters in a news conference. 

The Iranian defense industry is also promoting the combat capabilities of Saeqeh fighter in terms of radar system, missile, military equipment and weaponry, he added. 

The commander said Iranian &#8220;Air Force is prepared to confront any military strike&#8221;, warning that &#8220;any act of aggression against the country&#8217;s borders will face a crushing response.&#8221; 

Miqani also rejected rumors that Iran has purchased some airplanes from Russia

Extract Link:tehran times : Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft

*God bless Iran*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Doubters probbly still doubt iran can send a Rocket in Space for space research and for growth of their civilization

Stealth is probbly easy for Persians since they have alot of engineers of high calibre some even graduate from USA as well so its very easy for Iran to be expert in stealth 

It just needs mind and soul to dedicate to a goal

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## Hyde

any specifications released?


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## Kompromat

Mr X said:


> any specifications released?



Not yet and do not expect them for any time soon as this project is going to be secret .

Moreover i am highly disappointed by the behavior of some people towards Iran and this project.

Now i have seen how some people are making this Forum a " Troll pod or a Chat room ".

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## Kompromat

Vassnti said:


> It is said a breakthrough in celulose technology is the secret behind the new planes unique stealth capability.
> 
> This airplane is a model drone built on a one-seventh scale for the defense ministry




Would you stop your baseless BS ??

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## bozorgmehr

One way to engage in intelligence warfare and propaganda against your enemies is to narrow down the flow of information to the perfectly arranged image that you wish to convey to your enemies. The Soviet Union may have been the best practitioner of that approach. In more open societies such as Iran, where such constraints are impractical/undesirable, you might as well do the opposite. That is to flood the other side with so much plausible and quasi-realistic and occasionally verified info that it'll be hard for them to separate wheat from chaff and tell fact from fiction. And with that as your mode of operation, I would say that Iran has done an utterly spectacular job it. If you stop and think about it for a minute, with so much coverage, so many pictures and films coming out of Iran about every facet their operations, and the combined might of Western intelligence services intently focused on Iran, it is amazing that Iran still manages to leave them in the dark as to their true intentions and capabilities, and consistently beat and surprise them at the information game. 

Having said that, it has been my experience that when Iranian military officials have made a claim (on the record and verified), adjusting for delays, shortcomings and project uncertainties, they have by and large come true.

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## gambit

mean_bird said:


> *Iran tests home-made stealth fighter​*
> TEHRAN, Feb. 7 (Xinhua) -- *An Iranian air force commander said Sunday that Iran has successfully tested the prototype of its first domestically-built stealth fighter*, the English-language satellite Press TV reported.
> 
> "The plane, due to its physical attributes and the material used in its body, cannot be detected by any radar," Brigadier General Aziz Nasirzadeh, the force's coordination deputy, was quoted as saying.
> 
> Nasirzadeh said data from the test flight was favorable and the air force will move forward with its plans to produce *the plane called Sofreh Mahi*, which means Manta Ray, the report said.
> 
> However, he said that the production process will not be rushed as such complex systems need thorough analysis and exhaustive testing.
> 
> According to Press TV, Iran on Wednesday successfully test- fired a satellite rocket and unveiled three new satellites and a satellite carrier to mark the 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution.


Sure...General...

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## Abi

This is a project to make a stealth UCAV. The name translates to Manta ray in english and is designed like a flying wing similar to the x-45 (and a manta ray fish). In June, they successfully tested a 1/7th sized model and today they tested its shape against radars. No one has claimed that they have finished the design and that it is going into production.

You guys can be jealous all you want, but you will see when this is finished.

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## dbc

gambit said:


> Sure...General...



I love your new meter


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## bozorgmehr

gambit said:


> Sure...General...



A good example of what I was referring to above... Leave them with their thumbs up their rear orifice...

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## gambit

Vassnti said:


> It is said a breakthrough in celulose technology is the secret behind the new planes unique stealth capability.


Make that advanced 'composite cellulose' technology. One can only wonder at the adhesive used between layers.


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## applesauce

its not that we're making fun of Iran its that they are so full of BS im sure they have phasers and the starship enterprise in production too.


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## PAFAce

Despite sanctions and international pressure, if Iran can manage to _design_ something that has even _very basic_ radar evading technology, hats off to them. However, since there is no way to confirm what this aircraft is, all cheering and jeering is simply based on personal preference, so let's cut it and discuss this scientifically.

Now, technically speaking, it seems a little far fetched that Iran could manage to incorporate passive stealth technology into any aerial platform. This claim looks more along the lines of the "Iranian F/A-18" that was proclaimed a few years ago. If you looked behind the paint-job and modifications, it was essentially an F-5. However, on the other end of the spectrum, Iran has managed to surprise many nations with the continued development of its missile technology. At one point, they couldn't threaten Israel, now then can reach it with relative ease (which was serious enough to prompt concerns over Israel's missile defence). Therefore, with the Iranians, you never know what you'll get.

That said, I'm highly skeptical of this news. Time will tell if my skepticism is justified or not.

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## Abi

applesauce said:


> its not that we're making fun of Iran its that they are so full of BS im sure they have phasers and the starship enterprise in production too.



How are they full of ****? They announce a lot of projects, a lot of them get produced and some don't. It's the same in most countries, some projects run out of funding, and some succeed. Is America full of **** for announcing the OICW rifle project, the Commanche and many other projects that never reached mass-production? China is such a closed society that you don't hear about these projects to begin with, so the canceled ones are never known about.

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## Abi

PAFAce said:


> Now, technically speaking, it seems a little far fetched that Iran could manage to incorporate passive stealth technology into any aerial platform. This claim looks more along the lines of the "Iranian F/A-18" that was proclaimed a few years ago. If you looked behind the paint-job and modifications, it was essentially an F-5. However, on the other end of the spectrum, Iran has managed to surprise many nations with the continued development of its missile technology. At one point, they couldn't threaten Israel, now then can reach it with relative ease (which was serious enough to prompt concerns over Israel's missile defence). Therefore, with the Iranians, you never know what you'll get.
> 
> That said, I'm highly skeptical of this news. Time will tell if my skepticism is justified or not.



The Seaqeh was never intended to be a fighter plane and they never claimed that it is as capable as an F-18. The Saeqeh is a test bed for technologies that will be used for our fighter plane project. Only one of the seaqehs was actually made from scratch, the other 4 were old F-5s with modifications. The paint scheme is an indicator of this. They are testing things like fly by wire and avionics. A general may have said it is a new fighter Jet, and it may have been picked up by news agencies, after all to a layman who doesn't know what an F-5 is, it does look like a new plane. 

Some projects, like the Saeqeh are exaggerated, but if you actually examine the claims and the end products, a lot of them actually get produced. 

You can tell this project will succeed. They have said from the start that it will take a long time to build, they have never claimed that it is entering mass production, and the general today said that this UAV will go through a lot of tests and if it meets the requirements it will go into mass production.

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## Vassnti

Black blood said:


> Would you stop your baseless BS ??



Can i ask why the pics you linked are of a Vityaz?

If that is the new "Iranian" stealth plane it is neither new or Iranian. 

The Vityaz is said to have a rcs greater than the f 117 due to the designers " not wanting to give up aerodynamics as the f 117 had " 

If this is the plane of the current subject then to say it is undetectable would be the BS not me.


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## hero

gambit said:


> Sure...General...



Great tool.


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## Kompromat

*All i can see is every one is Scared of Iran .*

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## Ruag

Black blood said:


> *All i can see is every one is Scared of Iran .*



Yup... we are all scared of Iran and its mythical war-machines.


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## Abi

And we're scared of Indian soldiers in pink uniforms flying like a butterfly.

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## Kompromat

Ruag said:


> Yup... we are all scared of Iran and its mythical war-machines.



*^ Axis of Evil.*

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## Ruag

Abi said:


> And we're scared of Indian soldiers in pink uniforms flying like a butterfly.





I must say, that is pretty funny.


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## Ruag

Black blood said:


> *^ Axis of Evil.*



Sure. From your perspective, any nation fighting against terrorism would be classified as "evil".


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## ptldM3

Abi said:


> And we're scared of Indian soldiers in pink uniforms flying like a butterfly.



I think he kind of looks stealthy

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## Kompromat

Ruag said:


> Sure. From your perspective, any nation fighting against terrorism would be classified as "evil".



From my prospective any Nation Invading lands and Killing Humans on a massive scale is a Terrorist Nation such as.:

US: Everywhere

India: Kashmir / Gujrat 

Israel: Palestine .

Now you can bring in your Patriotism and deny it!!

BTW stop derailing the thread by posting " Unwanted " martial.

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## Silent observer

good work iran, keep it up

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## SinoIndusFriendship

Ruag said:


> Yup... we are all scared of Iran and its mythical war-machines.



Time and time again Indians *claim* to be friends and allies with Iranians, but when the time of need actually arrives, they show their *true* nature. False assurances and broken promises.

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## SinoIndusFriendship

Abi said:


> And we're scared of Indian soldiers in pink uniforms flying like a butterfly.



Mohammed Ali: "Dance like a butterfly, Sting like a bee!"


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## gotowork

basically, it makes no sense for iran to make a real stealth fighter, since it reqiures a lot of basic aviation experiments and experiences which iran can not posess because of their low lever technology, as far as i know, even china and russia face a lot of problems when come to the solution of the diffilculty to balnace stealth and mobility.
it is hard to image that iran can make a real 5 generation palne even without the ability to design and manufacture jet engines. 
hence i guess iran may adopt some particular shapes to their"5 generation"plane with the help of russian or chinese and call it stealth plane


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## Abi

gotowork said:


> basically, it makes no sense for iran to make a real stealth fighter, since it reqiures a lot of basic aviation experiments and experiences which iran can not posess because of their low lever technology, as far as i know, even china and russia face a lot of problems when come to the solution of the diffilculty to balnace stealth and mobility.
> it is hard to image that iran can make a real 5 generation palne even without the ability to design and manufacture jet engines.
> hence i guess iran may adopt some particular shapes to their"5 generation"plane with the help of russian or chinese and call it stealth plane




This is a stealth UCAV, not a Stealth fifth generation fighter.

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## fsoul

Abi said:


> And we're scared of Indian soldiers in pink uniforms flying like a butterfly.



I wish he has a jet pack , still great balance.

Great work Iran, hope you release those specification and pictures.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Abi said:


> And we're scared of Indian soldiers in pink uniforms flying like a butterfly.



This has got be the REPLY OF THE MONTH 
so much mirchi in this one .... smokin

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## no_name

Abi said:


> And we're scared of Indian soldiers in pink uniforms flying like a butterfly.



No offense but I ROFL'd when that picture appeared out of nowhere.

Regarding home made stealth fighter some pictures at least would be good, otherwise it would be hard to convince. Is this one of those accouncement so bold that it actually makes people wonder if it is true?


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## Abi

It is still in the development phase, so i don't think they will produce images, but you can tell that like the missile program, they're taking this seriously.

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## SBD-3

just two questions........does Iran possess the technological base for developing 5th G AC?........................all they have been able to do uptill now is F-5 redesign....which they claim is better than F-18........They don't have AESA equipped aircrafts as well....so how would they be able to judge the performance of AC against modern Radars.....Thirdly Iran is actively looking for J-10, J-11 and JF-17.....why would they need these if they already possess a better aircraf......I have serious doubts.


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## Naradmuni

> Iran tests home-made stealth fighter



No links, no pics, no verification???

I think the most advanced feature of this aircraft could be that it remains invisible to non-iranians.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Before we jump to conclusion lets see what Iran do posses

a) Scientist
b) PHD Physics
c) Aeronautical Engineers
d) Rocket Mastery 
e) Mathmatician

US/European connection , many of their expatriates have graduated
from best universities in world 

Facts: 
They have Super Cobra Reverse Engineered Unlimited Number of Super Cobras in Iran Army (Unlimited) Verifiable information as *Bell Helicopters has a law suit filed vs Iran in courts - that it was copied back in 1990's so they are producing these babies while we have yet to get our own helicopters with out sanctions go figure*






Reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panha_2091

Yes they make unlimited number of these - with sanctions lol 

Zulfiqar Locally produced Tanks (Unlimited)

Ilyushin Il-76 (AWAC) was in Iran possesion 2 of them which 
were taken from Iraq , althou the claim is that these were destroyed later but the AWACs radars must have already been copied by Iran 

S-300 (S-300PMU-1 and S-300PMU-2) Air Defences best in world to test out if the aircraft is visible 

Tor Missile System 

What else you need to test out a Stealth fighter ?? 

They already have tested out small scale units that is invisible - now its matter of time to build a larger scale model may be 4-6months of work






Did anyone expect Iran to Make this plane every one said not possible with sanctions







How about freedom Tank






Oh wait they can't possible make missiles 


Space Program ???? anyone with tea and buscuits .. and all that jazz??






Now ... can they make stealth ??? specially knowing their existing designs look stealthy enough ... Avionics for planes ?? Russia/China - engineering Iranian ... why not they sure built a rocket - didn't they ?

*THIS here is called the GAME CHANGER *- 
YOU PUT 10 of these and you have 100-200 local airplanes + local misiles 


Or their Kachulga Radar from Ukrain ^_^ range of *600 km* not bad for country with sanctions I say - Kaculga was used by Serbs to bring down US stealth plane what else do you need to test stealth fighter ? 





Of course we have not discussed - other stuff Iran gets thru China/Russia we are talking just the stuff that Iran made with its own bare hands

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## Dazzler

Ruag, i have asked many people from different countries and none of them was able to define terrorism. Please can you give an appropriate definition?

Thanks


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## DaRk WaVe

gambit said:


> Sure...General...





hey Aint you got a 'digital ' one


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## gotowork

frankly speaking, i think iran should be more quiet and focus their energy in developing technologies instead of speaking too loudly. in fact, if u keep silent and do concret jobs, the western world will not notice u and u have the time to make urself more strong. othewise, u will be the target of the western world.


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## Kompromat

EmO GiRl said:


> hey Aint you got a 'digital ' one



No it is a next generation technology Demonstrator.


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## Abi

hasnain0099 said:


> just two questions........does Iran possess the technological base for developing 5th G AC?........................all they have been able to do uptill now is F-5 redesign....which they claim is better than F-18........They don't have AESA equipped aircrafts as well....so how would they be able to judge the performance of AC against modern Radars.....Thirdly Iran is actively looking for J-10, J-11 and JF-17.....why would they need these if they already possess a better aircraf......I have serious doubts.



This is the third time i am saying this: This is supposed to be a stealthy UCAV that has air to ground bombs. It isn't a fighter plane and does not need AESA or anything like that. Also, Iran is not actively seeking J-10s/11s or the JF/17. We have better things we can spend that money on, like starting our own projects so that some day we'll be the ones exporting them. 

The reason why there are no pictures is because only a 1/7th scale model has been built. The first successful test was in June and the second successful test was yesterday.

And for the record, no one said the Saeqeh is an F-18. The commander said that America used the F-5, improved it and made the F-18 based on it. He was indicating that that is the route we're taking. That makes sense because Iran had blue prints for the YF-17 cobra (which looked like the saeqeh) and the YF-17 was developed into the F-18.

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## Abi

gotowork said:


> frankly speaking, i think iran should be more quiet and focus their energy in developing technologies instead of speaking too loudly. in fact, if u keep silent and do concret jobs, the western world will not notice u and u have the time to make urself more strong. othewise, u will be the target of the western world.



If there is no big bad Iran in the middle east, how could America sell $40bn in weapons to the Arab states in the Persian Gulf?

No matter what we do, as long as we have an independent government, America will target us.


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## SBD-3

Alleged purchases
Su-30

The Jerusalem Post reported that Iran has signed an arms deal with the Russian Rosoboronexport arms group to buy 250 Su-30 MKM warplanes and 20 Il-78 MKI aerial tankers. It is reported that Israeli defense officials were investigating the potential Iran-Russia deal, in which Iran would pay $1 billion a dozen squadrons&#8217; worth of the jets.[7] Iran and Russia have both denied this and have rejected these claims as propaganda.[8][9][10] In a recent broadcast the "Mehr News Agency" has reported that they (the reporters) saw a dozen Su 30s in a maneuver that took place on 15 and 16 September 2008; further the report reads: "In this joint maneuver of the IRIAF and the AFAGIR which is called the 'Guardians of the Nations Skies' the Air Forces of Iran have tested domestically developed systems as well as newly purchased systems (from Russia and China)."[11] The harsh warnings of Israel that it could attack Iran at any time and the Russo-American conflict over Georgia have led to reported weapons sales to Iran by Russia, but so far there have no details been revealed by either side.
J-10

The Russian news agency Novosti reported that Business & Financial Markets said Iran has signed a deal with China to buy two squadrons/24 of J-10 fighter planes with Russian-made AL-31FN engines. The total cost of the planes is estimated at $1 billion, and deliveries are expected between 2008 and 2010. China denied that it had agreed to sell its home-grown fighter jets to Iran, saying no talks had taken place. Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told reporters: "It's not true, it is an irresponsible report, China has not had talks with Iran on J-10 jets."[12][13][14]
JF-17 Thunder

According to Global Security, in July 2003 Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAIC) unveiled the new &#8216;Super-7&#8217; or Chao Qi fighter plane to the public, China supposedly received orders from Iran. The plane, now called the FC-1 is an export version of the JF-17 Thunder and entered production in 2006. As of 2008 Iran hasn't received any such plane.
Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Abi

Read, your own post, they all deny the allegations. Iran will never spend billions of dollars on these things, it is not part of policy, no one will allow it.


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## Mani2020

Ruag said:


> Yup... we are all scared of Iran and its mythical war-machines.




but you should better be scared of  lol

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## Mani2020

gotowork said:


> frankly speaking, i think iran should be more quiet and focus their energy in developing technologies instead of speaking too loudly. in fact, if u keep silent and do concret jobs, the western world will not notice u and u have the time to make urself more strong. othewise, u will be the target of the western world.



Exactly what China did


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## Mani2020

Abi said:


> Read, your own post, they all deny the allegations. Iran will never spend billions of dollars on these things, it is not part of policy, no one will allow it.



Brother we are with you, you are our muslim brothers

When Pakistan started its nuclear program everyone laughed at us that how can a nation which donot have developed Infrastructure how can they make a nuclear weapon.But By the Grace OF ALLAH almighty we made it

Same goes with China every one laughed at china saying that sleeping China cant do anythyng now you look at them

its not what to you have its about what u can do and achieve...every thng has a begining point Americans never learned it in the belly of their mothers its the hard work they did u can achieve anythng if u do hardwork
Japan is best example for people 
hard work always pay off 
u dont worry let these Indians and other people laugh dun care about them even they cant make their LCA crap they just only know to criticize others ,they are born to criticize . WE will INSHALLAH achieve all wonders and they will keep criticzing ( wat their work is)

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## Adios Amigo

these pictures have been around for quite some time, and they are the real pictures of claimed Iranian stealth fighter, the *Shafaq5*.























adios

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## Adios Amigo

here is its video,











*POST EDIT:* According to the video the work on this project started back in 1977, and every thing on the plane is home made.






adios


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## xmatrix

Congrats to Iran, mostly this new plane is based on MiG-I-2000. Awsome stuff Iran congrats


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Black blood said:


> *I just cannot understand why some people here are just being " Super stupid " and think that they are the best inc some Pakistanis here .
> 
> What makes a man special is not his " brain " it is " how they use it ".
> 
> If you guys are sarcastic about Iran & about their capabilities then i must say i just can condemn it . One man can change the course of history " get it in your brains first ".
> 
> I think Iranians have some sort of talent and they are as good as everyone else .
> 
> Indians should stop making fun of it because they are just too dumb to make an indigenous 4th gen Fighter for last 30 years.
> 
> Here is the source & now Stop BSing and try to conclude the debate. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> Tehran Times Political Desk*
> 
> TEHRAN -- Air Force Commander Brigadier General Ahmad Miqani said here on Monday that Iran has launched the project to manufacture stealth aircrafts.
> 
> &#8220;We have finished the design of stealth aircraft which cannot to be detected even by advanced radar systems, and the primary stages of its manufacture have started,&#8221; Miqani told reporters in a news conference.
> 
> The Iranian defense industry is also promoting the combat capabilities of Saeqeh fighter in terms of radar system, missile, military equipment and weaponry, he added.
> 
> The commander said Iranian &#8220;Air Force is prepared to confront any military strike&#8221;, warning that &#8220;any act of aggression against the country&#8217;s borders will face a crushing response.&#8221;
> 
> Miqani also rejected rumors that Iran has purchased some airplanes from Russia
> 
> Extract Link:tehran times : Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> 
> *God bless Iran*



Dudes all i wanted to see were some pics of this plane. Actually no body was posting them thats why i humored with that paper plane . However i have no doughs regarding the capability of Iran . Didnt they lauched the satellite . I appologise to you and many others here who got offended by that humor 

Regards 
H2O3C4Nitrogen

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## Cyrus the Great

Skywalker said:


> Oh my God , Iranians are never short of any BS. What happened to to so called indegeneous aircraft they tested earlier...all crap and BS, this press TV is another Bs and propaganda machine for Iranian Mullahs.



you are talking about Iran political system or aircraft?did i tal about your Mr 10% or military controlled state here?


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## Luftwaffe

yes the whatever thing they've designed/develop might not be what they claim my fella Pakistani members they've copied but atleast develop helicopters while we're begging..something is better than nothing right?


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## Luftwaffe

adeos amigo..that video is that guy sitting in a mock-up or prototype damn no landing gears..

it looks more like small bulky kid of F-15 i don't know if this is a stealth or not but surely seems like it'll become reality (not sure about stealth) in next 4-5 years it'll replace current fleet of F-4/F-1/f-5 of Iranian air force..


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## Parashuram1

So now they have a stealth fighter out of the blue when the world's richest air force has barely finished its own a few years back, second-most powerful is in the process, third and fourth largest air forces are miles away from even their first prototypes?

Interesting how the present government spreads its false propaganda. By hiding their fighters or weapon systems except for a few license-built equipment, the incumbent government of Iran is doing nothing but giving a good laugh to the world. This gives Iran a bad image that of a gasbag.

Such image-tarnishing gasbags are counter-productive. Iran could technologically gain so much if it doesn't go asking for conflicts.

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## Nima

Parashuram1 said:


> So now they have a stealth fighter out of the blue when the world's richest air force has barely finished its own a few years back, second-most powerful is in the process, third and fourth largest air forces are miles away from even their first prototypes?
> 
> Interesting how the present government spreads its false propaganda. By hiding their fighters or weapon systems except for a few license-built equipment, the incumbent government of Iran is doing nothing but giving a good laugh to the world. This gives Iran a bad image that of a gasbag.
> 
> Such image-tarnishing gasbags are counter-productive. Iran could technologically gain so much if it doesn't go asking for conflicts.



the Iranian govt does indeed bull **** a lot but don't act like Iran is some arab country. If Iran was as weak as you mentioned then we would have been attacked long ago. 31 years of threats, no action.


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## gambit

Nima said:


> the Iranian govt does indeed bull **** a lot but don't act like Iran is some arab country. *If Iran was as weak as you mentioned then we would have been attacked long ago.* 31 years of threats, no action.


Consider this perspective...If Iran was strong and belligerent enough, like Iraq was, Iran could have been attacked. Being weak often places one at risk from one's immediate neighbors, not from someone on the other side of the world.


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## DaRk WaVe

did i missed this news   

Come on people


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## Nima

gambit said:


> Consider this perspective...If Iran was strong and belligerent enough, like Iraq was, Iran could have been attacked. Being weak often places one at risk from one's immediate neighbors, not from someone on the other side of the world.



Iraq was strong?
mr arm chair warrior plz zip it
After the first Persian gulf war Iraq became Afghanistan.
EVERY single city had **** and piss running in the middle of it! They couldn't even fix the sewer system. No electricity, no running water in many areas! THEY WERE IMPORTING MEDICINE FROM IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Children were dying by the tens of thousands in the streets b/c of the sanctions.
Now lets talk about military. Oh wait there is nothing to talk about. ZERO capability to touch the American navy, no ballistics, no moral, no support from the public, small flat country, no nationalism (Iraq is a country carved out of the ottoman empire with a population that hates each other, e.g kurds vs arabs)! 
show me Iraq on the map then talk
Americans lol


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## Nima

As I said, if we were weak we would have been attacked long ago, like when we were holding those American dbags hostage.
Talk is cheap cowboy.


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## gambit

Nima said:


> Iraq was strong?
> mr arm chair warrior plz zip it
> After the first Persian gulf war Iraq...


So was Iraq weak *BEFORE* the first war against US -- Desert Storm? 

Here is what got the Iranian government worried...That a US-led coalition of military powers attacked an *IMMEDIATE* neighbor. Iran fought Iraq in a ten-yr war that ended in a stalemate. A war that pitted the Arab world against Iran. Then much later, pretty much that same world turned on Iraq when Saddam Hussein became greedy. The fact that it happened right next door tells the Iranian military leadership that between Iraq and Iran, Iraq was more troublesome and the rapid defeat of Iraq tells the Iranian military leadership that Iran's military defeat is a matter of US convenience, not capability.

So *YOU* 'zip it'.


----------



## Nima

gambit said:


> So was Iraq weak *BEFORE* the first war against US -- Desert Storm?
> 
> Here is what got the Iranian government worried...That a US-led coalition of military powers attacked an *IMMEDIATE* neighbor. Iran fought Iraq in a ten-yr war that ended in a stalemate. A war that pitted the Arab world against Iran. Then much later, pretty much that same world turned on Iraq when Saddam Hussein became greedy. The fact that it happened right next door tells the Iranian military leadership that between Iraq and Iran, Iraq was more troublesome and the rapid defeat of Iraq tells the Iranian military leadership that Iran's military defeat is a matter of US convenience, not capability.
> 
> So *YOU* 'zip it'.



listen cowboy, unlike these guys I have no patience discussing **** like this with you. 
I have only one thing to say, TALK IS CHEAP. 
Put your money where your mouth is, k cowboy?
are we a threat to you or not? If we're not a threat then why the **** are you guys pissing yourselves over our nuke program? 
If we're a threat then why haven't you attacked?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Can't we all just get along


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## gambit

Nima said:


> listen cowboy, unlike these guys I have no patience discussing **** like this with you.
> I have only one thing to say, TALK IS CHEAP.
> Put your money where your mouth is, k cowboy?


Indeed talk is cheap and so far with all the Photochopping done by the Iranian military, the cheapest award goes to Iran.



Nima said:


> are we a threat to you or not?


No. Iran as a threat is minor.



Nima said:


> If we're not a threat then why the **** are you guys pissing yourselves over our nuke program?
> If we're a threat then why haven't you attacked?


US pissing scared of Iran?  Tell that to the UN at large and the countries in the ME in particular. The Iranian military boast that Iran can seal off the Strait of Hormuz. By your argument, what is Iran waiting for? Why not do it now to teach the world a lesson of Iranian military might backed up by Iran's nuclear weapons program?


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## Nima

gambit said:


> Indeed talk is cheap and so far with all the Photochopping done by the Iranian military, the cheapest award goes to Iran.
> 
> 
> No. Iran as a threat is minor.
> 
> 
> US pissing scared of Iran?  Tell that to the UN at large and the countries in the ME in particular. The Iranian military boast that Iran can seal off the Strait of Hormuz. By your argument, what is Iran waiting for? Why not do it now to teach the world a lesson of Iranian military might backed up by Iran's nuclear weapons program?



okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
in one sentence you managed to brush off Iran's ballistic missile capabilities! You have the same logic as they people who photo shopped that. 

And your last paragraph makes no sense. Why would we close the straight? What part of "If we're attacked don't you understand?" btw even the Somalian pirates can close a 50 km body of water let alone Iran.
Why the bleep am I even discussing this with you? lol
talking to an American is like talking to a mullah or a basiji
both have the same logic as as a door knob


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## applesauce

"in one sentence you managed to brush off Iran's ballistic missile capabilities!"


theres only a very limited number of country who can deal significant damage to the American homelands (not counting terrorism) and Iran is not among those, in a pure military speak everyone knows the US army/navy/air-force can win a war in Iran in a matter of months. iran can launch their missiles, maybe some bases will gets hit maybe Israel gets hit, but the us army will not be dented in the slightest. so why dont they attack?, well firstly their the military is stretched right now and the country is in ever deeper debt, iran also has more ties with russia and china. if iran closes the strait then thats a international problem, you think only the us ships passes through there? whatever support they had will be gone. and frankly N. korea present a far greater threat than iran as they have demonstrated nuclear capability and have repeatedly threaten the us and its alliance in the area but again N. Korea could not hope to attack the US mainland, its missile could not carry a militarily significant warhead to the us nor is their conventional weapons capable of putting up a fight what worried the US at this moment is the Iranian military supplying terrorists with weapons. and these weapons iran keeps telling the world about well their just not credible or is outdated.


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## Nima

applesauce said:


> "in one sentence you managed to brush off Iran's ballistic missile capabilities!"
> 
> 
> theres only a very limited number of country who can deal significant damage to the American homelands (not counting terrorism) and Iran is not among those, in a pure military speak everyone knows the US army/navy/air-force can win a war in Iran in a matter of months. iran can launch their missiles, maybe some bases will gets hit maybe Israel gets hit, but the us army will not be dented in the slightest. so why dont they attack?, well firstly their the military is stretched right now and the country is in ever deeper debt, iran also has more ties with russia and china. if iran closes the strait then thats a international problem, you think only the us ships passes through there? whatever support they had will be gone. and frankly N. korea present a far greater threat than iran as they have demonstrated nuclear capability and have repeatedly threaten the us and its alliance in the area but again N. Korea could not hope to attack the US mainland, its missile could not carry a militarily significant warhead to the us nor is their conventional weapons capable of putting up a fight what worried the US at this moment is the Iranian military supplying terrorists with weapons. and these weapons iran keeps telling the world about well their just not credible or is outdated.



what exactly did Iran "tell the world"? lol
and when did I say we're a threat? 
I'm just saying that Americans are weirdos!
They go around telling the world that we're the world's "# 1 supporter of terror" and that we're supporting hezzbollah, taliban, hamas etc... and that we're making life harder for them in AFG and Iraq. we're also part of the "axis of evil" apparently!
They go around the world begging countries to support them on sanctions against Iran. They give billions to Israel in weapons (bunker busters etc...) to be ready for an Iranian attack. 
But when you ask them why they're sitting on their ***** and doing nothing they say b/c you guys aren't worth our time looooooooool

You guys make up **** as you go along.

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## oceanx

Some supermodel with an Amrikan green card and a track record of signing fake nuptial just to get out of service in the IDF should finally do the patriotic duty and get a name change to "Esther".

Then it's just the matter of picking out the right Ayatollah ...

And Najad the man can then retire to Paris (and once there it's up to Mossad of recent Dubai notoriety whether they wish to make a "Haman" out of him ...)

Peace and tranquility for another 1000 years is just around the corner!


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## Crypto

Nima said:


> Iraq was strong?
> mr arm chair warrior plz zip it
> After the first Persian gulf war Iraq became Afghanistan.
> EVERY single city had **** and piss running in the middle of it! They couldn't even fix the sewer system. No electricity, no running water in many areas! THEY WERE IMPORTING MEDICINE FROM IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Children were dying by the tens of thousands in the streets b/c of the sanctions.
> Now lets talk about military. Oh wait there is nothing to talk about. ZERO capability to touch the American navy, no ballistics, no moral, no support from the public, small flat country, no nationalism (Iraq is a country carved out of the ottoman empire with a population that hates each other, e.g kurds vs arabs)!
> show me Iraq on the map then talk
> Americans lol



agree!


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## nomi007

lesson for Pakistan,why they are not starting


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## Peregrine

nomi007 said:


> lesson for Pakistan,why they are not starting


Hi
may be the project is already under way some where in China, who knows Pakistan doesn't like to brag like some other parties


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## jagjitnatt

I bet the invisible Iran stealth fighter has a RCS of 20m2 or something like that. Iran is just not capable enough to build a 4th gen plane forget a 5th gen. There are just two countries in the world who can seriously build something of that sort and that's US and Russia.

Even Indian stealth fighter would be highly inspired from Russians and I doubt Chinese would need Russian assistance as well.

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## lhuang

At first I thought this was a joke thread. Then I realised some Pakistani members especially were taking it seriously and then I laughed for a minute+ straight.


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## Vassnti

jagjitnatt said:


> I bet the invisible Iran stealth fighter has a RCS of 20m2 or something like that.





For comparison,


> Everything has a Radar Cross Section (or RCS), but where birds have approximately a .01 square meter RCS, the Raptor has almost the same RCS.



RCS 0.01






RCS 20.0


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## applesauce

jagjitnatt said:


> I bet the invisible Iran stealth fighter has a RCS of 20m2 or something like that. Iran is just not capable enough to build a 4th gen plane forget a 5th gen. There are just two countries in the world who can seriously build something of that sort and that's US and Russia.
> 
> Even Indian stealth fighter would be highly inspired from Russians and I doubt Chinese would need Russian assistance as well.



india is getting her stealth fighters from russia, china most likely has some russian input for her stealth fighter, also Iran making stealth fighter...all i can say is LOL


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## below_freezing

Nima said:


> what exactly did Iran "tell the world"? lol
> and when did I say we're a threat?
> I'm just saying that Americans are weirdos!
> They go around telling the world that we're the world's "# 1 supporter of terror" and that we're supporting hezzbollah, taliban, hamas etc... and that we're making life harder for them in AFG and Iraq. we're also part of the "axis of evil" apparently!
> They go around the world begging countries to support them on sanctions against Iran. They give billions to Israel in weapons (bunker busters etc...) to be ready for an Iranian attack.
> But when you ask them why they're sitting on their ***** and doing nothing they say b/c you guys aren't worth our time looooooooool
> 
> You guys make up **** as you go along.



the problem of the US army attacking iran or not is not of whether it will be militarily defeated, but of minimizing the cost of victory. 

i wish the best for iran at the moment, but the US is simply trying to buy time to lower the cost of war. iran is not iraq, but iran is not even at the military power of north korea. north korea actually can credibly threaten core american interests and has powerful allies to back it up.


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## Nima

below_freezing said:


> the problem of the US army attacking iran or not is not of whether it will be militarily defeated,* but of minimizing the cost of victory. *
> 
> i wish the best for iran at the moment, but the US is simply trying to buy time to lower the cost of war. iran is not iraq, but iran is not even at the military power of north korea. north korea actually can credibly threaten core american interests and has powerful allies to back it up.



agree on the bold part


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## Abi

Stealth means reduced RCS. The Shafaq has a reduced RCS, therefore it is a stealthy plane. No one said it can compare to the Raptor. 

Besides, the news article you're talking about is talking about a stealth UCAV.


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## Abi

below_freezing said:


> the problem of the US army attacking but iran is not even at the military power of north korea. .



Please stop talking out of your backside.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Iranian folks , has iran mass produced its fighters up to 80 planes ?


----------



## Frankenstein

Black Blood said:


> *I just cannot understand why some people here are just being " Super stupid " and think that they are the best inc some Pakistanis here .
> 
> What makes a man special is not his " brain " it is " how they use it ".
> 
> If you guys are sarcastic about Iran & about their capabilities then i must say i just can condemn it . One man can change the course of history " get it in your brains first ".
> 
> I think Iranians have some sort of talent and they are as good as everyone else .
> 
> Indians should stop making fun of it because they are just too dumb to make an indigenous 4th gen Fighter for last 30 years.
> 
> Here is the source & now Stop BSing and try to conclude the debate. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> Tehran Times Political Desk*
> 
> TEHRAN -- Air Force Commander Brigadier General Ahmad Miqani said here on Monday that Iran has launched the project to manufacture stealth aircrafts.
> 
> We have finished the design of stealth aircraft which cannot to be detected even by advanced radar systems, and the primary stages of its manufacture have started, Miqani told reporters in a news conference.
> 
> The Iranian defense industry is also promoting the combat capabilities of Saeqeh fighter in terms of radar system, missile, military equipment and weaponry, he added.
> 
> The commander said Iranian Air Force is prepared to confront any military strike, warning that any act of aggression against the countrys borders will face a crushing response.
> 
> Miqani also rejected rumors that Iran has purchased some airplanes from Russia
> 
> Extract Link:tehran times : Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> 
> *God bless Iran*



*This seems Incredibly awesome,  for Iran, Its not only there achievement but its our achievement aswel cuz we have the same goal  
pity seeing some absurd comments by Pakistanis, i apologies on
there behalf
I think Iran should do a joint venture with Pakistan *

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## Frankenstein

gambit said:


> Sure...General...


i like the meter, but it has a degree of bad timing to it


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## PakistaniPacifist

Frankenstein said:


> *This seems Incredibly awesome,  for Iran, Its not only there achievement but its our achievement aswel cuz we have the same goal
> pity seeing some absurd comments by Pakistanis, i apologies on
> there behalf
> I think Iran should do a joint venture with Pakistan *



Bro these Pakistanis who hate are either jealous because their Iranian 'shia - kafir -cultureless' neighbours are busy making advancement in technology while they are sitting idle on their backside worshipping Zia, Taliban and the Saudi Mullahs. They would happily sell their whole family if a Gulf Arab asked him to, these people are like lepers affecting every Pakistani who come into contact with them.

Sure is incredible, if it's true, congrats to Iran.

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## Frankenstein

Weather its a Stealth UCAV or a Stealth Fighter, it remains a big achievement for Iran, cuz not even Pakistan or India made it yet

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## Parashuram1

Frankenstein said:


> *This seems Incredibly awesome,  for Iran, Its not only there achievement but its our achievement aswel cuz we have the same goal
> pity seeing some absurd comments by Pakistanis, i apologies on
> there behalf
> I think Iran should do a joint venture with Pakistan *


While the design seems to be an impressive one, why doesn't Iran proudly brandish this on front of the world? If this is indeed a stealth aircraft, then they are perhaps the second country to achieve this after United States. 

The fighter in the lower two diagrams seems Russian in description as they are the only ones who can come up with such dynamic designs apart from United States. A true achievement should have been released as a press release the same as Iran showcased its own set of ballistic missiles sometime back.

Whereas this aircraft has only been seen in forums and discussion threads. Why is Mr. Ahmedinejad hiding this thing if it is indeed as lethal as it claims and appears? After all, releasing a small clip of this aircraft in close flight won't reveal its technical secrets, isn't it?

My humble thought here is that either this aircraft is still on drawing board or it is just a rejected Russian design as being paraded around forums as the next stealth fighter. While no disrespect to Iranian scientists, much wealthier, experienced and militarily bigger countries such as Russia, China and even India aren't even close to developing complete stealth technology in league of F-22 or even JSF.

I wonder how Iran with its limited cash, lesser experience in aeronautics, lesser capital in R n D as compared to afore-mentioned countries can achieve such a feat unless and until its government actually reveals the fighter in flying condition to the world. Until then, its just a gasbag and government propaganda. 

Note: My comment is not to hurt Iranian sentiments here but rather analyze the situation at hand and tell. I don't mean to disrespect any member here.

Thanks.


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## Prayag

Parashuram1 said:


> *While the design seems to be an impressive one, why doesn't Iran proudly brandish this on front of the world*? If this is indeed a stealth aircraft, then they are perhaps the second country to achieve this after United States.



This is because the aircraft is so super-stealth that it is not visible to the naked eye of ordinary human beings. Only Ayatollas can see it. And this claim is made only after the testimony of senior ayatollahs that such 8 th gen aircraft do exist in Iran.

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## ao333

This is halarious. I don't know why India boasts their "long history" when it's Iran and Pakistan, which were the center of the Indus civilization.


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## applesauce

below_freezing said:


> the problem of the US army attacking iran or not is not of whether it will be militarily defeated, but of minimizing the cost of victory.
> 
> i wish the best for iran at the moment, but the US is simply trying to buy time to lower the cost of war. iran is not iraq, but iran is not even at the military power of north korea. north korea actually can credibly threaten core american interests and has powerful allies to back it up.



while N. korea has exploded a nuke i actually think Iran is stronger militarily than N. Korea, Iran is also in the middle east if **** hits the fan they can in a last ditch make the oil routes extremely dangerous, that's a strategic us interest(and everyone else too). n korea however can hit what south korea and maybe a couple of bases in japan? if it werent for the nuke and China's ambiguous stance(friendship treaty) n. korea probably would have been invaded already much in the same way that taiwan would have been invaded (50s,60s,70s) were it not for US support.


----------



## Peregrine

applesauce said:


> while N. korea has exploded a nuke i actually think Iran is stronger militarily than N. Korea, Iran is also in the middle east if **** hits the fan they can in a last ditch make the oil routes extremely dangerous, that's a strategic us interest(and everyone else too). n korea however can hit what south korea and maybe a couple of bases in japan? if it werent for the nuke and China's ambiguous stance(friendship treaty) n. korea probably would have been invaded already much in the same way that taiwan would have been invaded (50s,60s,70s) were it not for US support.


Hi
No actually you are gravely wrong, North Korea is the most militarized country with 4th largest standing army in the world, their air force and navy are way bigger than that of Irans, and not to mention they have a remarkable ballistic missile programme, Iran is working on Nuclear fuel, North Korea already has nuclear bombs, so there is no way that Iran is stronger than N.korea. Nuclear bombs are the biggest deterrence weapon there is even USA wont dream of invading N.Korea, Iran cannot strike USA but N.Korean missiles can hit USA


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## Abi

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> No actually you are gravely wrong, North Korea is the most militarized country in the world with 4th largest standing army int he world, their air force and navy are way bigger than that of Irans, and not to mention they have a remarkable ballistic missile programme, Iran is working on Nuclear fuel, North Korea already has nuclear bombs, so there is no way that Iran is stronger than N.korea. Nuclear bombs are the biggest detterence weapon there is even USA wont dream of invading N.Korea, Iran cannot strike USA but N.Korean missiles can hit USA



North Koreas ballistic missile program is a joke and i don't know what you mean they're the 4th largest standing army in their world even if it were true, they're armed with vintage WW2 weapons. Besides, Iran has the highest number of Paramilitary soldiers in the world, i.e. NK is #4 but we're #1.


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## Peregrine

Abi said:


> North Koreas ballistic missile program is a joke and i don't know what you mean they're the 4th largest standing army in their world even if it were true, they're armed with vintage WW2 weapons. Besides, Iran has the highest number of Paramilitary soldiers in the world, i.e. NK is #4 but we're #1.


Hi
lol hahah
One of the first buyers of North Korean missiles. Iran has established local production for the Hwasong-5 (Shahab-1), Hwasong-6 (Shahab-2) and the Rodong-1 (Shahab-3). Also possesses some 18 land-based BM25 missiles. North Korean weapons sales to Iran are estimated to total $2 billion annually.
North Korea Army
Active personnel 1,190,000
Reserve personnel 4,700,000

Iran Army
Active Personnel 350,000(220,000 conscripts and 130,000 professionals)
Reserve 350,000

I know Iranians love to brag about certain equipment but you don't have much grounds in this regard

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## Nima

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> lol hahah
> One of the first buyers of North Korean missiles. Iran has established local production for the Hwasong-5 (Shahab-1), Hwasong-6 (Shahab-2) and the Rodong-1 (Shahab-3). Also possesses some 18 land-based BM25 missiles. North Korean weapons sales to Iran are estimated to total $2 billion annually.
> North Korea Army
> Active personnel 1,190,000
> Reserve personnel 4,700,000
> 
> Iran Army
> Active Personnel 350,000(220,000 conscripts and 130,000 professionals)
> Reserve 350,000
> 
> I know Iranians love to brag about certain equipment but you don't have much grounds in this regard



military service is mandatory in Iran so I have no idea how NKorea could have more reserves when Iran's pop is bigger. Every man must finish a 2 year service so effectively you have 11 million or more paramilitary in Iran.


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## Peregrine

Nima said:


> military service is mandatory in Iran so I have no idea how NKorea could have more reserves when Iran's pop is bigger. Every man must finish a 2 year service so effectively you have 11 million or more paramilitary in Iran.


HI
you are asking the wrong guy i am even surprised my self that North Korean Army is even bigger than Pakistan's.North Korea has a good number of active personals as compared to iran, However i am not sure if paramilitary of Iran count as actual armed forces


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## desiman

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Behold the latest Iranian stealth fighter ..!



   nice one


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## desiman

Black Blood said:


> *I just cannot understand why some people here are just being " Super stupid " and think that they are the best inc some Pakistanis here .
> 
> What makes a man special is not his " brain " it is " how they use it ".
> 
> If you guys are sarcastic about Iran & about their capabilities then i must say i just can condemn it . One man can change the course of history " get it in your brains first ".
> 
> I think Iranians have some sort of talent and they are as good as everyone else .
> 
> Indians should stop making fun of it because they are just too dumb to make an indigenous 4th gen Fighter for last 30 years.
> 
> Here is the source & now Stop BSing and try to conclude the debate. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> Tehran Times Political Desk*
> 
> TEHRAN -- Air Force Commander Brigadier General Ahmad Miqani said here on Monday that Iran has launched the project to manufacture stealth aircrafts.
> 
> We have finished the design of stealth aircraft which cannot to be detected even by advanced radar systems, and the primary stages of its manufacture have started, Miqani told reporters in a news conference.
> 
> The Iranian defense industry is also promoting the combat capabilities of Saeqeh fighter in terms of radar system, missile, military equipment and weaponry, he added.
> 
> The commander said Iranian Air Force is prepared to confront any military strike, warning that any act of aggression against the countrys borders will face a crushing response.
> 
> Miqani also rejected rumors that Iran has purchased some airplanes from Russia
> 
> Extract Link:tehran times : Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> 
> *God bless Iran*



ohh please stop talking like an over patriotic India hater, have you seen the state of the Iranian Air force ? They cant even manage to have a decent 4th generation fighter let alone make a 5th generation one. You cant just suddenly get up and make a 5th generation jet overnight no matter how smart you are. I wont be surprised if their so called 5th generation is nothing more than their other " super capable" domestic fighters. lol


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## Abi

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> lol hahah
> One of the first buyers of North Korean missiles. Iran has established local production for the Hwasong-5 (Shahab-1), Hwasong-6 (Shahab-2) and the Rodong-1 (Shahab-3). Also possesses some 18 land-based BM25 missiles. North Korean weapons sales to Iran are estimated to total $2 billion annually.
> North Korea Army
> Active personnel 1,190,000
> Reserve personnel 4,700,000
> 
> Iran Army
> Active Personnel 350,000(220,000 conscripts and 130,000 professionals)
> Reserve 350,000
> 
> I know Iranians love to brag about certain equipment but you don't have much grounds in this regard





At the start, we got help from the North Koreans, but we've longed surpassed them.

Why don't you check out the number of Basijis Iran has?


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## Abi

Read this:

Iran&#8217;s missile program making steady progress
An interview with Uzi Rubin

September 17, 2009



*Mr. Uzi Rubin, an Israeli engineer who formerly ran Israel&#8217;s &#8220;Arrow&#8221; program for missile defense, gives high marks to Iran&#8217;s recent success in making long-range missiles, and predicts that Iran would use these missiles in saturation attacks with high explosives in time of war.*

In a recent interview with Iran Watch, Mr. Rubin emphasized that Iran successfully developed the design for both its solid-fuel ballistic missile and its liquid-fuel space launcher after only a few test flights, showing that the Iran's missile industry is capable of recovering from test failures in relatively short time

Mr. Rubin believes Iran largely has the capability to build longer range missiles. He predicts that Iran will focus increasingly on solid fuel technology, which is easier to scale up in order to reach longer ranges. However, for political reasons, Iran is playing down this capability for fear of alienating Europe and Russia. With a range of 2,000 km, Iran&#8217;s two-stage, solid fuel Sejil [and variants] can already reach all mid eastern targets from eastern Iran.

The following is an edited transcript of our conversation.


Iran Watch (IW): What do you think about Iran&#8217;s space program, and the recent rocket tests?

Uzi Rubin (UR): I was impressed by the space launcher, especially its design. The first stage is a souped-up Shahab 3. The second stage is liquid fuel, but it's storable liquid fuel. This is one step beyond basic, non-storable liquid fuel like what&#8217;s used in Scuds. And it&#8217;s not only storable, it&#8217;s also hypergolic. That means you don't have to light the propellant, you just pump it into the motor and it spontaneously ignites. Iran managed to design a very elegant second stage &#8211; and also very light. The overwhelming majority of countries starting out with space launch technology started with three stages. Why? Because it's easier to reach orbital velocity with three stages than with two stages. Doing it with only two stages places very stringent requirements on the second stage. But Iran did it. Everyone was surprised. This is something we didn&#8217;t expect. I'd say it was an audacious achievement for a starting country.

IW: Were you surprised that Iran had mastered staging? Staging is not easy.

UR: Well, staging is challenging, but I'm not surprised. When Iran announced its space program back in 1998, this obviously meant they were going to rely on staging. So I wasn&#8217;t surprised that they did it. Staging is key to a space program. I was surprised that it worked so well the first time.

I was also surprised that Iran progressed so quickly. In February 2008, Iran fired a missile it called Kavoshgar, which was a Shahab-3, probably with a slightly stronger motor and painted in blue and white because it was flown by the space agency, not by the military. It had a typical triconic front end &#8211; what&#8217;s called the baby bottle front end &#8211; but with some changes. This test flight showed all the signs of failure. I tracked the video frame by frame. You could see pieces falling off while it was taking off, and then the whole thing exploded violently. That was the first launch. Iran claimed the test was successful, but we saw it as a dismal failure. Six months later, in August, Iran fired its first space launcher [Safir]. No pieces fell off. That indicates ample telemetry data from the failed test, which allowed Iranian engineers to figure out what went wrong in February. They than displayed good engineering: they fixed the problem. Finally, the short recovery time &#8211; only six months &#8211; indicates vigorous program management. While Iran's regime is radical and belligerent, and the success of its endeavors is bad news for the Middle East and the international community &#8211; as an engineer, I take my hat off.

But the August test was still a failure. Six months after that, in February 2009, the rocket worked. Within one year Iran had moved from a failed design to a successful one and launched a satellite into good, stable orbit. Again, this progress is a sign of good system engineering and good program management. Both are crucial. Not the technology. You can acquire technology. The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTRC) appears to be dysfunctional as far as Iran is concerned. They seem be able to buy anything from anywhere. Perhaps not from the United States, and there may be some difficulties in Europe. But they apparently have other venues for acquisition of missile related materials and components. .

IW: Is this space launcher an indigenous design?

UR: I am not sure. But look, even if somebody designed it for Iran, if Iran had access to this design, then it's like having the design capability at home. The legacy for the overall design is Soviet. But when I say Soviet, it doesn't mean Russian.

I think the Iranians have taken off. They have learned what they were taught and are proceeding.

IW: Could Iran&#8217;s success depend on technical assistance received remotely, from experts who are not physically present in Iran?

UR: No, to support a program you have to be there physically to communicate face to face with the technical teams. It&#8217;s my guess that what we are seeing is already largely indigenous Iranian capability. *They&#8217;re developing a technological culture, which is unique in the Middle East. They&#8217;re adapting science as part of their national policy. Iran hosts aerospace conferences, once or twice a year, and Iranian engineers contribute papers to American conferences. So, Iran is developing a strong scientific base.

Iran&#8217;s missile program is now 20 years old. There has been enough time to graduate a number of engineers from Iranian universities. Those who graduated 15-20 years ago are now program leaders.

IW: Is Iran ahead of North Korea?

UR: So it would seem. In addition to the space launcher&#8217;s liquid fuel technology, Iran also has a solid propellant missile: the Sejil, or Ashura or Sejil 2. Iran changes the names, but that&#8217;s just psychology. It&#8217;s the same missile. In 2005, Iran&#8217;s defense minister made a statement claiming to have made a solid propellant rocket motor for the Shahab missile. Obviously what he meant was that Iran was working on solid propellant rockets with the diameter of the Shahab. Thirty months later, the first Iranian solid propellant, two-stage ballistic missile made its first flight.

The solid fuel missile is a breakthrough, because it gives Iran a growth potential that it didn&#8217;t have with liquid fuel rockets. In liquid rockets, there are difficulties in making rocket motors that are large enough but still stable. When you increase the combustion chamber of a liquid fuel motor, you can get severe combustion instability problems. With solid fuel, once you have a breakthrough and you can make rocket motors, increasing their size is pretty straightforward.*

IW: What is the diameter of the current solid fuel missile?

UR: The same as the diameter as the liquid fuel missile: 1.25 meters.

The most important dimension of a missile is its diameter. The production line is geared to this diameter. If you change the diameter of a missile by even by a couple of inches, you have to redo much of your infrastructure. So, once you have a diameter you stick to it. This is especially true for missiles on mobile launchers, because if you change the diameter, you have to make significant changes to the launcher as well. So, the diameter of Iran&#8217;s solid fuel missile is 1.25 meters, which is the same as the space launcher and the same as the Shahab-3 missile. This diameter was inherited from North Korea. The North Koreans did the trick of enlarging, or scaling up the Scud. So it makes sense that the solid fuel missile has the diameter of the Shahab, which came from North Korea, and of the launcher of the Shahab, slightly adapted, and that it has two stages with the same diameter.

IW: How would you rate the solid fuel missile?

UR: I compare Iran&#8217;s solid fuel missile to the U.S. Minuteman-1, of 1961. I claim these missiles are comparable. Americans are shocked when I say this, but remember that Minuteman-1 was a first generation solid propellant missile, first flown half a century ago and therefore primitive compared to what the United States can do today. In fact, in some sense the Sejil is more advanced, not because the Iranians are so smart, but because of the march of technological innovations between than and now. Previously, achieving accuracy was a daunting challenge that required the top technological brains in the United States and the Soviet Union. Today, you can buy GPS accuracy in any consumer electronics shop for less than $200. You still have to design a GPS system that will withstand acceleration and work in a vacuum, but that&#8217;s a project for graduate students in aeronautical engineering at Tehran University. It doesn&#8217;t require any great ingenuity. So, Iran can make the missiles as accurate as they wish. An off-the-shelf GPS is accurate to the width of a street &#8211; 20 meters.

IW: Is there anything unique about Iran&#8217;s design for the solid fuel missile?

UR: The jet vanes are an interesting design feature. In solid fuel missiles, jet vanes are usually used for the initial phase of the flight. But the Iranians managed to make jet vanes that survived the full 50 or 60 seconds of the first-stage flight. Solid propellant exhaust contains aluminum oxide; it&#8217;s very abrasive. If the jet vanes don't survive during the entire burn, missile control is lost. That&#8217;s why in some solid propellant rockets, like in Russia, jet vanes are discarded after a few seconds and control is done either by air vanes or by some other means, for instance by secondary injection.

IW: What about the missile casing? What is it made of?

UR: Probably maraging steel. Iran is on record trying to buy it. Some attempts were foiled. But again, the Indians bought maraging steel for their missiles. The only problem with maraging steel is that Iran would need to get maraging steel forgings as well. This may be difficult. But the fact that the Indians got them means that somebody is offering them on the market.

IW: Is there any other specialized equipment or material that Iran needs to buy in order to improve or scale-up the missile?

UR: Sure, you need some blenders, big mixers. You also need casting pits, test stands, and big x-ray machines for inspections. To develop these things on your own is difficult &#8211; they are very specialized. So, you need to buy them. By the way, all of this equipment is strictly controlled by the MTRC. But the fact that the Sejil took off successfully and completed its mission means that the Iranians have this infrastructure. They bought it. It shouldn&#8217;t be in Iran but it is.

So, the proficiency is there and it can be scaled up. Based on an analysis of the Sejil&#8217;s first flight, I estimate ten tons for the first stage and a five ton second stage. This is the optimum proportion. Now, to make a 20 ton first stage, if you have the infrastructure, it&#8217;s straightforward. Any well run program could have the first motor on the test stand in two years from green light.

IW: Is there anything stopping Iran from scaling up this missile, from a technical perspective?

UR: Iran has everything it would need for such a program except perhaps external thermal protection for the re-entry vehicle. They have a triconic shaped re-entry vehicle that works for 2,000 km but not for intercontinental ranges. It may still be dependant on internal insulation like the old Soviet-era Scud design. Images of the Sejjil show it with a black nose tip, probably made of some ablative graphite material, but with no external insulation. Right now, I would estimate that this missile could carry a 1,000 kg payload to a range between 2,200 and 2,450 km. But, if Iran decides to go for ranges beyond 2,000 km, it will need an external heat shield. This is a challenge, but the Iranians already have the key to overcome it. Their capability to make a 50 - 60 second, 10 ton rocket motor which survives the full burn time means they can do internal heat shielding. From this, the leap to external heat shielding is not too great. Eventually they&#8217;ll be able to do an external heat shield for longer ranges. I&#8217;d say that Iran has either fully formed technology or embryonic technology for every aspect of a very long range missile.

IW: You said that Iran has managed to circumvent control regimes like the MTRC to buy what it needs; who is selling to Iran? What are they selling?

UR: The open record shows that they managed to buy bars of tungsten copper alloy from China &#8211; exactly the MTCR controlled material used for solid propellant missile jet vanes. Iran may have imported tungsten copper plates and cut them into jet vanes. The Iranians might also try to get tungsten copper powder and sinter the material themselves. This is another hallmark for Iran: self reliance.

IW: How far has the solid fuel missile been tested?

UR: A few hundred kilometers. But that&#8217;s not important. Iran is testing the technology. The range potential is probably at least 2,000 km.

IW: Does Iran have space inside its country to test a missile to 2,000 km?

UR: I'm not sure but I don't think so. I believe that to fire to 2,000 km or more from its Semnan test site, outside of Tehran, Iran would have to go into splash down &#8211; the missile would come down in the ocean. Bur Iran has a free ocean all the way to the South Pole. And no part of the missile would fall in any other country. So, Iran has no issue in terms of testing an intercontinental-range missile.

IW: Do you think Iran will test to 2,000 km?

UR: If they do so it will not serve their interests at present, because firing to this range may be politically sensitive. Yet Iran might eventually find some excuse to test to longer ranges, by citing changed circumstances. The range within Iran is about 1,800 km. That&#8217;s the longest range point to point. There is no need at present for Iran to test further than that. If the missile flies successfully to 1,800 km it stands to reason that it will be able to fly to 2,000 km too.

IW: So 1,800 km is sufficient to test the re-entry vehicle and the guidance system for longer ranges?

UR: Up to a point. You don&#8217;t need to test to the full range to see if it will fly to the full range, provided that the shorter range is stressing enough. Of course, you couldn&#8217;t rely on a 300 km test flight to know how the missile would perform at a range of 2,000 km, but if you cover 80&#37; of the range, then you are in the right ballpark.

IW: Could the current missile carry a nuclear warhead?

UR: If you are talking about the weight requirements &#8211; that is, if your question is whether the current missile has the lifting capability to sufficient to carry a first generation nuclear warhead, I think that the answer is positive. The question whether the current missile has the special adaptation to interface and successfully activate a nuclear warhead is another matter, and I'm not sure that they are there yet. But I must be clear on one important point here. The new triconic warhead is not a move toward accommodating a nuclear warhead. This warhead has less volume than the conical warhead Iran was using before. And the diameter of the central section is about 60 cm, which is very constrained for a nuclear bomb. It could be a gun type, but that would be heavy. I&#8217;m guessing that the conical nosecone had a stability problem that was stressing the missile and harming its accuracy. The triconic shape is naturally stable if designed correctly, which would improve accuracy. I&#8217;d say the new shape is designed for simplicity and accuracy, not necessarily for nuclear capability.

IW: But why else would Iran need such a missile if not to carry a nuclear weapon?

UR: From a western point of view, long range ballistic missiles make sense only when they carry a nuclear weapon. This is a legacy of Cold War thinking. The Iranians don&#8217;t see it that way. Missiles are for them what both tactical and strategic air power are for the West. You can see this from what Iran displays in military parades: old hardware, old tanks, some of them from the 1950s, and half of the aircraft were bought before the Islamic revolution. Iran is building long range strike power through missiles. And not only Iran is doing this, so is Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas&#8230;for them, the rocket is king, not the combat aircraft.

IW: So the money is not there for the aircraft?

UR: No. The money is in missiles and in nuclear technology. In the missile program, you see the effect of this huge investment. Today, Iran has made a great leap forward in technical proficiency and in its capability to design and integrate ballistic missiles. The key ingredient here is not just the building of a rocket motor or a re-entry vehicle, the key is system engineering, along with system integration, and program management &#8211; all three are important and tied together.

IW: Would Iran use its missiles, armed with conventional warheads, in some sort of saturation strategy?

UR: Saturation in war time, yes. Iran will use its missiles if it is attacked. And they&#8217;ve developed bomblet warheads. Iran claims the results would be very destructive.

IW: So, Iran would arm its missiles with such warheads and use them as a sort of long range air power, an alternative to aircraft?

UR: Yes, why not? Iran is making a lot of missiles. The Iranians believe in conventional missiles. Not just for saturation but also to take out specific targets. They believe that their cluster warheads can take out airfields. Remember, they have practically no air force to do it. Their main striking power is based on missiles.

IW: So Iran would have to manufacture a lot of missiles and arm them with these warheads. And with the 2,000 km range, Iran would be able to base the missiles further east.

UR: Yes, giving them survivability. And the Iranians are not hiding it &#8211; on the contrary, they are bragging about it openly. . They are transparent; they want to deter any U.S. or Israeli attack. Iranian leaders openly wish for U.S. satellites to take pictures of their weapon sites and to see their capability. Mark this: for Iran, ballistic missiles are not weapons of last resort. They see them as legitimate weapons of war to be used in any conflict.

IW: What&#8217;s next for Iran in terms of missile development?

UR: Watch for Iranian long range cruise missiles. I think that air breathing cruise missiles will be the next long range missile to appear. The Iranians will probably reverse engineer the KH-55s they got a few years ago via Ukraine. The main problem here is the jet engines. Making small fan jet engines is an expertise. Iran will need to buy it. The United States and France won&#8217;t sell, so Iran will have to find other sources. The initial design for these missiles will not be nuclear-capable because their carrying capacity would likely be small. So they would be armed with conventional warheads as well. Later generation could become nuclear-capable.

Otherwise, expect Iran to pursue solid propellant. We&#8217;ll probably see the liquid propellant program dying out. There won&#8217;t be a long-range, liquid fuel missile. The Iranians will keep liquid fuel for the space program for now, but for ballistic missiles they&#8217;ll be drawn to solid propellant. And if they want to put larger, heavier satellites into orbit, they may use a modified Sejil.

We&#8217;ll see more and more variations of the Sejil, just as we saw with Iran&#8217;s Shahab-3, which has three sub-variations that we can identify. The original Shahab-3 missile could hit Israel from western Iran. The more advanced variations can strike from further east. Sejil is the first generation and we&#8217;ll see a second and third generation.

IW: Do you have an idea of production volume for the Sejil?

UR: No. But I predict that the next step on this missile will be a move to better solid propellant rocket motors, and to filament winding in order to take advantage of composite materials. Whoever sold Iran the infrastructure to make metal casings will sell them the infrastructure to make composite materials. Also, better metals will be used for thrust vectoring.

IW: Will Iran seek to add a third stage to the solid fuel missile?

UR: This is not a technical question, it&#8217;s political. Iran has the infrastructure, it has the proficiency, and it has the design know-how. So, it is a question of intention. Will Iran add a third stage? Or make a bigger first stage motor? Iran is probably not eager to do this overtly because it is aware of the political implications. The Iranians are very aware of the meaning, for Europe, of longer range missiles. So, right now I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s in their interest to do it openly. Actively running a full scale long range missile program may not be on the agenda, for now. But the Iranians may have a paper program for longer range missiles.

IW: There is a parallel here with the nuclear program. In both cases, Iran is seeking to build up its capability without causing alarm.

UR: Yes, the Iranians are careful to remain within the limits of legitimacy. They push the outer limit, but they are careful not to go beyond it, at least openly. This is the case in their nuclear program and &#8211; for the time being &#8211; in their missile program. You can expect this policy to continue as long as it serves Iran's interest. What they are planning behind closed doors is another question &#8211; and a very troubling one. 

Iran Watch: Interview with Urzi Rubin on Iran's missiles - 9-17-09


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## Abi

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> 
> I know Iranians love to brag about certain equipment but you don't have much grounds in this regard





Just to put you in place, it is widely believed that Pakistan's Shaheen Missiles are the Chinese M-11 and the Ghuri are the NK Nodong.


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## Prayag

Abi said:


> Just to put you in place, it is widely believed that Pakistan's Shaheen Missiles are the Chinese M-11 and the Ghuri are the NK Nodong.



It is an obvoius known fact. Even the sweeper at my office knows it.

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## Peregrine

Abi said:


> Just to put you in place, it is widely believed that Pakistan's Shaheen Missiles are the Chinese M-11 and the Ghuri are the NK Nodong.


Hi
First off i am not the one who is claiming to be better than others so get over your self regarding putting others in their places as i am modest enough to accept the reality, if u cannot prove your point you dont have to detract or get personal
secondly M-11 is an export versions of Chinese DongFeng 11 (DF-11) which has a Range of 280~350km
Pakistani Shaheen 1 has a range of 750 km and shaheen 2 has a range of 25,00 km 
Pakistan has manufactured these on the basis of M-11 as the Shaheen series is based on solid fuel instead of liquid.
So your claims that shaheen's are M-11 are absolutely preposterous
Same is with Ghauri is believed to be based on Nodong but so is Shahab-3 
But then again i am not the one who is claiming to be powerful than a state from which we acquired technology.

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## Abi

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> First off i am not the one who is claiming to be better than others so get over your self regarding putting others in their places as i am modest enough to accept the reality, if u cannot prove your point you dont have to detract or get personal
> secondly M-11 is an export versions of Chinese DongFeng 11 (DF-11) which has a Range of 280~350km
> Pakistani Shaheen 1 has a range of 750 km and shaheen 2 has a range of 25,00 km
> Pakistan has manufactured these on the basis of M-11 as the Shaheen series is based on solid fuel instead of liquid.
> So your claims that shaheen's are M-11 are absolutely preposterous
> Same is with Ghauri is believed to be based on Nodong but so is Shahab-3
> But then again i am not the one who is claiming to be powerful than a state from which we acquired technology.



The Shaheen 1 is the M-11, the Shaheen 2 is the M-18, there is no difference between the two. 

The first shahab-3 was indeed a Nodong, but this was 15 years ago, the latest Shahab-3, the shahab-3D or Ghadr-110 is so much more advanced, it uses more efficient fuel, it has RAM (radar absorbing material paint) the warhead is guided, the engine is different, basically it is nothing like the Nodong and more advanced than anything North Korea has. The Ghouri on the other hand IS the Nodong, nothing's changed, it is the same as the original ones Pakistan imported. Iran also created the solid fuel Sejil 1 & 2.

So to say NK is more advanced than Iran in the missile field is ridiculous, i wouldn't have got "personal" if you weren't so ignorant and rude in your posts.

Here you can see the changes to the original Nodong and also the Sejil:

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## desiman

ao333 said:


> This is halarious. I don't know why India boasts their "long history" when it's Iran and Pakistan, which were the center of the Indus civilization.



learn some history and then come back


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## Peregrine

Abi said:


> The Shaheen 1 is the M-11, the Shaheen 2 is the M-18, there is no difference between the two.
> 
> The first shahab-3 was indeed a Nodong, but this was 15 years ago, the latest Shahab-3, the shahab-3D or Ghadr-110 is so much more advanced, it uses more efficient fuel, it has RAM (radar absorbing material paint) the warhead is guided, the engine is different, basically it is nothing like the Nodong and more advanced than anything North Korea has. The Ghouri on the other hand IS the Nodong, nothing's changed, it is the same as the original ones Pakistan imported. Iran also created the solid fuel Sejil 1 & 2.
> 
> So to say NK is more advanced than Iran in the missile field is ridiculous, i wouldn't have got "personal" if you weren't so ignorant and rude in your posts.
> 
> Here you can see the changes to the original Nodong and also the Sejil:


Hi 
Do u have any evidence that Shaheen is M-11? ...... where M-11 clearly has a range less than 500KM. all what u have stated is based on your subjective judgment. what you have said about Ghauri is only your thought.
Excuse me but u wouldn't have perceived me as being rude if your Ego had not been hurt when i mentioned North Korea is stronger than Iran and can strike USA, this is not my personal judgment if u look at facts you will come to realize.
As for ballistic missiles i just mentioned Iranian missiles are based on North Korean like Pakistani's are based on them. You have acknowledged your self, However how Iran has surpassed North Korea, i don't know and i don't care. But good for you and Iran

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## Luftwaffe

prayag..first of all a sweeper is a human being don't insult him because of his profession "Cheapshot by a cheapman like you". secondly your missiles are russian technology everything is a copy ready made kits..like it? third mr. desiman try not to thanks to those you try to insult plus as an elite member you are quiet aware of indian missiles are spinoff of russian tech.copy..disagree truth is wide open in your face!


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## desiman

luftwaffe said:


> prayag..first of all a sweeper is a human being don't insult him because of his profession "Cheapshot by a cheapman like you". secondly your missiles are russian technology everything is a copy ready made kits..like it? third mr. desiman try not to thanks to those you try to insult plus as an elite member you are quiet aware of indian missiles are spinoff of russian tech.copy..disagree truth is wide open in your face!



His comment was not a cheap-shot at a sweeper but merely a rhetorical statement. Please prove to me how the Agni or Prithvi or any other Indian missile are Russian based? The Brahmos is a joint venture so that does not count. Try not to accuse other people before checking your own facts.

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## Abi

1234567890


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## Peregrine

Abi said:


> Ghaznavi / Shaheen-II - Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems
> DF-11 / CSS-7 East Wind, DF-11A, M-11,




Hi 
OMG u seriously don't want me to fall for this lame URL that you provided well here you go 
Shahab-3
Zelzal-3 1 liquid 1,000-1,350-1,500 1999 -- MRBM 1.3 Also flown by North Korea (No-dong) and Pakistan (Ghauri II).
Shahab-3D
Zelzal-3D 2 liquid,solid 1,500+ 2001 -- MRBM 1.3 Also flown by North Korea (No-dong) and Pakistan (Ghauri II).
IRIS
Zelzal-3D 2 liquid,solid 1,500+ 2001 -- MRBM 1.3 Also flown by North Korea (No-dong) and Pakistan (Ghauri II).

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/

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## Nima

*Russian analyst: Irans missile capacity has topped North Koreas*

A leading Russian analyst said Iran has surpassed the missile development potential of North Korea.

The analyst pointed to Irans success in building a space-launch vehicle that could place satellites into orbit.

In my view, Iran has even greater potential and greater resources than North Korea has today, Vladimir Dvorkin, a leading Russian analyst, said.

The analysts assessment differed sharply with that of the Kremlin. The Russian General Staff was said to have concluded that Iranian missiles had a range of no more than 1,000 kilometers.

In a briefing on Sept. 21, Dvorkin, the senior researcher at the Moscow-based International Security Center, said North Korea was helping Iran produce intermediate-range ballistic missiles. But he said Teheran has extended Pyongyangs technology capabilities and could produce missiles with a range of more than 3,000 kilometers.

And if the upper stage of the carrier rocket that took the first Iranian satellite into space is re-equipped, the range could be increased to 4,000 kilometers, Dvorkin said. That puts Europe well in range.

I believe statements by the Russian General Staff that Iran possesses missiles with a range of up to 1,000 kilometers are inaccurate, Dvorkin said.

Another former Russian general and analyst said Teheran could develop an intercontinental ballistic missile as early as 2015. Viktor Yesin, a former chief of staff of the Russian Strategic Missile Forces, said Russian defense systems were capable of intercepting Iranian missiles.

Russia and the United States could jointly turn to this topic again in the future if Iran gets such a weapon [ICBM], but this wont happen until at least 2015, Yesin said.

It is difficult to miss the irony, hypocrisy, or worse of these conclusions given Obamas collapse under Russian pressure on the proposed Ballistic Missile Defense shield that was to have been installed in the Czech Republic and Poland and readied by 2013-14 to defend against exactly this threat and be ready to defend against an Iranian ICBM by  you guessed it  2015.


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## Abi

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> OMG u seriously don't want me to fall for this lame URL that you provided well here you go
> Shahab-3
> Zelzal-3 1 liquid 1,000-1,350-1,500 1999 -- MRBM 1.3 Also flown by North Korea (No-dong) and Pakistan (Ghauri II).
> Shahab-3D
> Zelzal-3D 2 liquid,solid 1,500+ 2001 -- MRBM 1.3 Also flown by North Korea (No-dong) and Pakistan (Ghauri II).
> IRIS
> Zelzal-3D 2 liquid,solid 1,500+ 2001 -- MRBM 1.3 Also flown by North Korea (No-dong) and Pakistan (Ghauri II).
> 
> Iran Missiles




Lame? fas.org is very credible. All you need to do is compare the images of the missiles, they're identical.


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## Peregrine

*North Korea is believed to have more than 800 ballistic missiles, including long-range missiles which could one day strike the US.*
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | North Korea's missile programme
this one is from neutral source


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## below_freezing

Abi said:


> North Koreas ballistic missile program is a joke and i don't know what you mean they're the 4th largest standing army in their world even if it were true, they're armed with vintage WW2 weapons. Besides, Iran has the highest number of Paramilitary soldiers in the world, i.e. NK is #4 but we're #1.



in wartime, north korea can be armed by china any time it wants. in fact it has more modern weapons than most of iran, which was kinda frozen in the 1970's as far as weapons go. and US does not even think about invading north korea because we have an alliance with north korea just like the US has with UK, attacking north korea is the same as attacking china.

NK also can actually threaten the US with taepodong 2.

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## Abi

below_freezing said:


> in wartime, north korea can be armed by china any time it wants. in fact it has more modern weapons than most of iran, which was kinda frozen in the 1970's as far as weapons go. and US does not even think about invading north korea because we have an alliance with north korea just like the US has with UK, attacking north korea is the same as attacking china.
> 
> NK also can actually threaten the US with taepodong 2.



It doesn't have a single thing that is modern let alone "more modern".

TD2 doesn't even work and it can't even reach the US.


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## Abi

Peregrine said:


> *North Korea is believed to have more than 800 ballistic missiles, including long-range missiles which could one day strike the US.*
> BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | North Korea's missile programme
> this one is from neutral source



If you could see the Nodong quality you would cast doubts over claims that they could create ICBMs. They're just stacking them to make the range linger by they fail over and over again. 

Now i don't see how this talks about quality, which is what we're debating. 

Iran has never gone for ICBMs because there is no need to, the only targets (ISrael and Us bases in the ME) are well within the range of the current ones, that is why they're developing accurate MRBMs to compensate for the weak airforce. NK on the other hand wants to reach America, that is why they have longer range BMs.


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## below_freezing

Abi said:


> It doesn't have a single thing that is modern let alone "more modern".
> 
> TD2 doesn't even work and it can't even reach the US.



Mig-29 fighter
Mig-23 fighter
M-1992 artillery
and since china has an alliance with north korea, a real one signed with a treaty, they are essentially an extension of chinese forces.


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## Abi

below_freezing said:


> Mig-29 fighter
> Mig-23 fighter
> M-1992 artillery



So their old Mig-29 is more modern than our new Mig-29s?




> and since china has an alliance with north korea, a real one signed with a treaty, they are essentially an extension of chinese forces.



You guys look similar too


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## Hammy007

i cannot believe these iranians are making cheap shots at pakistan missiles which were developed long before iranian once, now iranians during their national threat of being attacked by foreginers in the wake of their nuclear development(tech provided by pak) are suddenly coming up with these missiles and claiming these are developed by them. oil power speaks a lot btw.


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## below_freezing

Abi said:


> So their old Mig-29 is more modern than our new Mig-29s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You guys look similar too



what's wrong? does iran have too many friends and allies? lets be honest here, it's not north korea in danger of a regime change. besides, north korea's MiGs can be supplied from china for free if they are invaded, what about iran?

also iranian logistics is going to be a nightmare, you have planes from 5 different countries all using different systems. north korea has equipment from 3 countries, itself/china/russia, and chinese technology is compatible with russian (but not the other way around).


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## Nima

below_freezing said:


> what's wrong? does iran have too many friends and allies? lets be honest here, it's not north korea in danger of a regime change. besides, north korea's MiGs can be supplied from china for free if they are invaded, what about iran?
> 
> also iranian logistics is going to be a nightmare, you have planes from 5 different countries all using different systems. north korea has equipment from 3 countries, itself/china/russia, and chinese technology is compatible with russian (but not the other way around).



North Korea's entire gdp is 20 billion dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Iran last year spent between 10-17 on military alone!!!

Our missile tech has surpassed theirs and unlike them we can support ourselves during a war. 
You keep mentioning China will come to the rescue b/c you know that NKorea is nothing. 

btw, buying jets from Russia is easy, especially when you have the cash. What's hard is making them yourself. One day we will be making our own jets and for now we don't need them. What we have is good enough for defensive purposes. Mix our air defenses with the current air force and also our deterrents and an attack on Iranian soil is highly unlikely. 
North Korea doesn't even have money to feed and cloth its soldiers let alone keep its military hardware from falling apart.


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## Nima

Hammy007 said:


> i cannot believe these iranians are making cheap shots at pakistan missiles which were developed long before iranian once, now iranians during their national threat of being attacked by foreginers in the wake of their nuclear development(tech provided by pak) are suddenly coming up with these missiles and claiming these are developed by them. oil power speaks a lot btw.



don't be dumb
Iran started its missile technology with the help of the Koreans but after the 90's we stopped cooperation. Today Iran's missiles are more advanced than the Koreans, both Russians and Americans have confirmed this. We can send satellites into the orbit and have done so a few times now so we effectively can make ICBMs very soon.


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## below_freezing

and i applaud iran for being independent but unfortunately this is the time where being independent takes a secondary priority to surviving as a nation-state. north korea has survived, without surrendering any autonomy to any other country. can iran do the same this year? the world is waiting anxiously.

russia, china and maybe even india won't let iran go down though.

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## Abi

Hammy007 said:


> i cannot believe these iranians are making cheap shots at pakistan missiles which were developed long before iranian once, now iranians during their national threat of being attacked by foreginers in the wake of their nuclear development(tech provided by pak) are suddenly coming up with these missiles and claiming these are developed by them. oil power speaks a lot btw.



Your missiles are Chinese and NK missiles with a different name, there are no changes and no upgrades. Iran's missiles were originally based on the Nodong which we have long improved on and now we have the Sejil, more advanced than anything Pakistan has bought from China. 

It is ridiculous to say Pakistan has helped Iran, the only thing "Iranian" you've helped is Jundullah.

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## Abi

below_freezing said:


> and i applaud iran for being independent but unfortunately this is the time where being independent takes a secondary priority to surviving as a nation-state. north korea has survived, without surrendering any autonomy to any other country. can iran do the same this year? the world is waiting anxiously.
> 
> russia, china and maybe even india won't let iran go down though.




People have been talking of attacks since 2003, it's never going to happen, Obama has failed to get people to agree on sanctions.


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## Nima

below_freezing said:


> and i applaud iran for being independent but unfortunately this is the time where being independent takes a secondary priority to surviving as a nation-state. north korea has survived, without surrendering any autonomy to any other country. can iran do the same this year? the world is waiting anxiously.
> 
> russia, china and maybe even india won't let iran go down though.



north korea isn't your avg state
Korea is an isolated shithole, even if we wanted to be an isolated shithole like them we wouldn't be able to do so. They're a small country with only one border, and that's China! Korea hasn't really done anything. They just closed their borders. They don't have Americans on every side and Russians to the north and arabs+israel to the south ...
we can't do what Korea has done b/c of our size and geographical location.
Iran will never be attacked though. If the Americans wanted to attack they would have attacked when we were taking their ppl hostage or in the 90's when we were SUPER WEAK or attacked us instead of IRaq. They have known about our nuke program this entire time, heck they started our program so this whole nuke thing is just a reason to put sanctions, not to attack.


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## below_freezing

true. iran's position is very dangerous.

however as long as iran can scare off the americans they're fine. the israelis won't be able to touch iran.


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## Abi

below_freezing said:


> what's wrong? does iran have too many friends and allies? lets be honest here, it's not north korea in danger of a regime change. besides, north korea's MiGs can be supplied from china for free if they are invaded, what about iran?
> 
> also iranian logistics is going to be a nightmare, you have planes from 5 different countries all using different systems. north korea has equipment from 3 countries, itself/china/russia, and chinese technology is compatible with russian (but not the other way around).



Logistics isn't really a nightmare, they were a nightmare during the war but now we overhaul them ourselves and we built most parts.

China will not help NK, it is not in China's interests for there to be a war in the first place and it certainly won't be helping NK, secondly, do you think it is easy to just give Migs? Within days of war USA and SK will bomb all airfields and all pilots will soon be killed too. I don't even know why you're talking about NK, lets try not to get off topic.


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## gambit

Abi said:


> ...lets try not to get off topic.


The topic is an Iranian 'stealth' fighter. If people remain 'on topic' this thread would not have gone as far as it is. The idea of an Iranian 'stealth' fighter is a joke and it has gone stale a long time ago. So what else is there for people to do but to do but go off topic?

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## Abi

gambit said:


> The topic is an Iranian 'stealth' fighter. If people remain 'on topic' this thread would not have gone as far as it is. The idea of an Iranian 'stealth' fighter is a joke and it has gone stale a long time ago. So what else is there for people to do but to do but go off topic?



The word stealth means reduced RCS, you don't need something as advanced as the F-22 for it to be stealth. 

The Germans spent 8 years and billions trying to develop a stealth plane only for the project to be canceled, one of the people on this project was arrested in America and it turned out he along with others on the team went on to work in Iran after the project. The same goes for a lot of Russians after the break of the soviet union (look at shafaq) so the technology is there to build a plane with RCS, the only problem is funding which is being eaten up by the missile and nuclear projects. 

In any case, this article is about a "stealth" UAV, which is well within Iran's reach.


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## below_freezing

the word stealth is very misleading.

a paper airplane is the stealthiest aircraft in the world with a RCS of less than 1 cm2. but it cannot do anything.

iran's stealth aircraft may have a low RCS, but does it have the maneuverability, electronics and endurance to survive modern air combat?


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## Abi

below_freezing said:


> the word stealth is very misleading.
> 
> a paper airplane is the stealthiest aircraft in the world with a RCS of less than 1 cm2. but it cannot do anything.
> 
> iran's stealth aircraft may have a low RCS, but does it have the maneuverability, electronics and endurance to survive modern air combat?




What stealth aircraft? Did you bother reading the article? It says Iran's stealth UAV passed its second test.


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## Hammy007

Abi said:


> It is ridiculous to say Pakistan has helped Iran, the only thing "Iranian" you've helped is Jundullah.



you are proved ignorant so here is one for you, an iranian acknowledges in this forum

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/53913-pakistan-spotlight-washington-nuclear-summit.html


http://www.defence.pk/forums/293225-post4.html


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## gambit

Abi said:


> The word stealth means reduced RCS, you don't need something as advanced as the F-22 for it to be stealth.


The F-111 can be 'stealth' but the aircraft itself is not low radar observable, at least comparatively to the F-16 class. To be 'stealth' mean you must avoid radar detection by any means, except via ECM. Flying below the radar horizon definitely qualify you as 'stealth'. The word 'stealth' have been too casually used and abused.



Abi said:


> ...the only problem is funding which is being eaten up by the missile and nuclear projects.


That is true. With enough money and time, of course Iran would be able to make a very low radar observable aircraft like the F-22, perhaps even better.



Abi said:


> In any case, this article is about a "stealth" UAV, which is well within Iran's reach.


Size has a great influence on how low radar observable is a body. Remove the need for pilot support and you reduce body size by at least %40. On the other hand, if body shaping is not considered, then size is irrelevant.


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## Abi

Hammy007 said:


> you are proved ignorant so here is one for you, an iranian acknowledges in this forum
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/53913-pakistan-spotlight-washington-nuclear-summit.html
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/293225-post4.html



There is no proof that Pakistan gave us their Chinese centrifuges, it's all talk. Meanwhile on Friday Iran showed a new centrifuge faster than anything Pakistan has.


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## Abi

gambit said:


> The F-111 can be 'stealth' but the aircraft itself is not low radar observable, at least comparatively to the F-16 class. To be 'stealth' mean you must avoid radar detection by any means, except via ECM. Flying below the radar horizon definitely qualify you as 'stealth'. The word 'stealth' have been too casually used and abused.



I agree, it gets abused a lot and it is the case when they call our 1,400 ton warship a "destroyer", i watch the Persian announcements by the generals and they make no such claims then i read the English report and they call it stealth, as opposed to "able to avoid detection" or "reduced RCS", they also translate the word "warship" in Persian to "destroyer" in English. Journalists are the same all over though, they were calling an APC a Tank on BBC yesterday.




> That is true. With enough money and time, of course Iran would be able to make a very low radar observable aircraft like the F-22, perhaps even better.



Nice sarcasm, but if you factor in the fact that we've mentioned that the word stealth is overused, and if you factor in the fact that Iran makes 70&#37; of the F-14 (minus certain avionics and certain parts of the engine) and if you factor in the ToT of the Shafaq and the MBB Lampyridae projects and the FBW plus other technologies gained through the IrAn-140 project, and their respective infrastructure being built, it isn't an exaggeration that if they allocated enough funds to the Air force then we could see a decent plane. This won't happen until the regime believes that they're not under threat anymore, because at the moment, we could spend tens of billions and develop something quite capable, but it would still be no match against America and their cruise missiles, F-22s B-2s etc. Therefore there is no point. So as soon as the threat from America is gone, you will see more conventional projects being built, at the moment they're all concepts (Raksh APC, Zolfigar tank, Dorna advanced trainer). The things that are being built are anti air/ship/tank missiles, UAVs, BMs, Fast attack craft and submarines. 




> Size has a great influence on how low radar observable is a body. Remove the need for pilot support and you reduce body size by at least %40. On the other hand, if body shaping is not considered, then size is irrelevant.



This article is about a UAV that Iran is working on with RCS features and RAM. Body shaping is not too difficult, it was difficult to design before Supercomputers, noways you can build supercomputers by using PS3 CPUs


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## BJlaowai

Abi said:


>



wow.. Thats a nice find Abi. Can you give the link to the source of this picture. Thanks 
The similarities between Chinese and Pakistani missiles are uncanny and definitely more than just coincidence. 
In some pictures I saw, even the TELs (Transporter Erector Launcher) of these missiles look exactly similar.
I didnt know Ghaznavi missile was ready. It was supposed to be longer ranged than Shaheen-II, isnt it? In this pic, its smaller than Shaheen-I.


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## gambit

Abi said:


> *Nice sarcasm*, but if you factor in the fact that we've mentioned that the word stealth is overused, and if you factor in the fact that Iran makes 70% of the F-14 (minus certain avionics and certain parts of the engine) and if you factor in the ToT of the Shafaq and the MBB Lampyridae projects and the FBW plus other technologies gained through the IrAn-140 project, and their respective infrastructure being built, it isn't an exaggeration that if they allocated enough funds to the Air force then we could see a decent plane.


No sarcasm at all. What I said is very true. The F-117, even with a lot of money behind it, still took about ten years from paper to flight. Same for the F-22.


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## Abi

gambit said:


> No sarcasm at all. What I said is very true. The F-117, even with a lot of money behind it, still took about ten years from paper to flight. Same for the F-22.



Well Iran doesn't have the amount of Human capital America has, but if the Ministry of Defence of Iran allocated the same amount of resources the Missile industry gets, then i don't think a fairly decent plane (at the very least better than the F-14, which is still very advanced) being built within the next 10 years is too unbelievable. If they allocated enough money, they could get help from Russia. 

However the problem is, even if we create F-22s America would still win conventionally therefore all the investment is going in asymmetrical warfare, until we reach a point where we are no longer threatened.


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## Hammy007

Abi said:


> hammy was telling me that they helped us with our missile program as well lol.



and when n where did i say that, provide the link plzz

at indians, indians always say this in an immature way in the youtube, so carry on


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## Abi

gambit said:


> No sarcasm at all. What I said is very true. The F-117, even with a lot of money behind it, still took about ten years from paper to flight. Same for the F-22.



Another thing i'd like to say is that with very little investment in our defence industry, (it's the smallest our region in Per capita even though we have enemies on either side) we've managed to achieve a lot, not only have we been able to maintain our American aircraft without spare parts for 30 years, we are self sufficient in most things. What's impressive is not the stage that we're at now, but the speed that we reached it and the speed at which we're advancing.

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## BATMAN

Prayag said:


> Spot on. Unfortunately no pakistani will like to believe this. They are used to live in self dellusion.



Ho does inidan missiles look like! fire balls?
All missiles looks like rockets.......having aerodynamic nose housing guidance radar, exhaust at bottom bomb in the middle. they all look alike from outside. and those cartoons does not reflect the true shapes.
BTW... we have much more in our arsnel e.g. cruise missiles which may look like any other cruise missile!


















Fact remains Pakistan is producing wepons which other states failed to develop despite spending billions and all the support from far more developed states than China. 

I hold my reply on disillusioned Pakistani....comment of yours.

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## Peregrine

Prayag said:


> Guys look at the below pictures and decide for yourself. Shaheen is exact 100 Xerox copy of chinese M11. Actually off-the-shelf imported hardware (just change in paint colour) termed as "indigenious".


 Hi
i rather not reply a troll on fire  but then here is a bitter pill for you to swallow. Pakistan has copied missiles or nukes how is that going to make them any less potent, its hurts right!!! the reality of Pakistan having nukes! so deal with it and keep on thinking they are not made in PAKISTAN, as if it matters.


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## Parashuram1

Excuse me, but haven't posters digressed here a lot from the main topic? I mean, the last time I remember checking the thread name, it was related to Iranian "stealth" fighter aircraft and not ballistic missiles.

There is not reason to bring both the categories and then compare them. North Korea has learnt to make ballistic missiles but its still nowhere near making even a decent third generation aircraft and heavily relies on China and Russia.

Therefore, I request all my fellow respected members here to return to the topic: *Stealth fighter*


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## TaimiKhan

*Keep the discussion as per the thread title, no need to bring in other topic discussion. 

Abi, keep the discussion as per the topic, I remember well to have busted your disillusion about the missile thingy, which you are spreading here after having run away from that thread. So don't make a mess of this thread. 

And for other members, no need to get personal and throw mud on each other, keep the discussion civilized, or else log off before thrown out. *

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## waraich66

Iran's Air Forces: Struggling to Maintain Readiness
By Fariborz Haghshenass
December 22, 2005

Recent events, including the launch of Iran's first space imaging satellite, the announcement that Russia is selling Iran twenty-nine Tor-M1 (SA-15 Gauntlet) mobile short-range surface-to-air missile systems for $700 million, and the crash of an air force C-130 transport plane into an apartment block in Tehran, have focused attention on Iran's evolving air and aerospace power capabilities, as well as on Iran's longstanding problems in maintaining its aging fleet of military and civilian aircraft.

A Force Divided

Iran's air forces are divided between the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) and Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps Air Force (IRGCAF).

The IRIAF is by far the larger and more capable service. Its main role is to defend Iran against foreign enemies; in the event of invasion, this might include long-range offensive missions. To this end, it operates some two hundred and twenty combat aircraft (F-14A Tomcats, F-4D/E Phantoms, F-5E/F Tigers, Su-24MKs, MiG-29A/UBs, Mirage F-1EQs, and F-7Ns) at various states of readiness; around fifteen reconnaissance aircraft (RF-4Es and RF-5As); at least one hundred training aircraft (F-5B Simorghs, FT-7s, PC-7/S-68s, and F-33 Bonanza/Parastoos); some forty-five transport/tanker aircraft (Boeing 707s and 747s, C-130E/H Hercules, and Fokker F27 Friendships); around thirty-five helicopters used for search and rescue and transport; and four P-3F Orions for maritime surveillance of the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. The IRIAF also operates a unit equipped with the Zelzal surface-to-surface missile, which has a range of up to 300 kilometers (the IRGC also deploys Zelzal missiles).

The IRGCAF provides close air support (CAS) and lift capabilities for the IRGC's rapid reaction units. The backbone of the IRGCAF consists of ten Su-25 Frogfoot attack aircraft (including seven flown from Iraq to Iran during the 1991 Gulf War, kept airworthy with the help of Georgian technicians) and around forty EMB-312 Tucanos -- its main CAS aircraft. The IRGCAF also maintains thirty Y-12 and Dassault Falcon 20 light transports, as well as MFI-17 Mushaqs and Super Mushaqs trainers and locally built Ababil and Mohajer reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

The IRGCAF also operates a sizeable rotary-wing force consisting of around twenty Mi-171 helicopters for transport and armed assault roles, and a large transport force out of Shiraz, equipped with around fifteen ex-Iraqi Il-76s (originally operated by the IRIAF) and twelve An-74T-200 transports. Due to its internal security function, the IRGC puts great importance on rapid deployment and airborne operations and regularly practices the airborne insertion of troops and equipment over relatively long ranges.

Finally, the IRGCAF operates several hundred short- and medium-range mobile ballistic missiles, including the Shahab-3/3B with a range of up to 2,000 kilometers, which is the mainstay of Iran's strategic deterrent. If Iran ever produces nuclear weapons, the IRGCAF will likely control them.

Institutional Rivalries and Tensions

Rivalries between the IRIAF and the IRGCAF during the early stages of the Iran-Iraq War precluded effective cooperation between the two air services. The war taught the IRGC commanders that they needed to be able to operate independently, which required organizing their ranks into ground, air, and naval arms like the regular armed forces. As a result, in 1986 Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini ordered the creation of three separate branches of the IRGC, including an air force. Not surprisingly, the new service lacked the necessary technical expertise, and the ruling clerics instructed it to pass its first "advanced" fighter aircraft, Chinese Chengdu F-7s, on to the IRIAF. Since then, the IRIAF and the IRGCAF have had a tense relationship. They are not known ever to have held a single joint exercise; it is therefore unclear whether they could operate together effectively in the event of a crisis.

Despite its current status as junior partner, the IRGCAF could eventually supplant the IRIAF as the dominant air service as a result of its relatively generous funding, its active recruitment of the best graduates from technical degree granting programs, and the rising influence of IRGC-affiliated politicians, such as President Mahmoud Ahmadinezhad. In contrast, the IRIAF has been struggling to compensate for the loss of growing numbers of experienced technical personnel and aircrews to retirement; it has responded by pooling its existing technicians into centralized task forces. In the early days after the Islamic Revolution, it failed to create the training infrastructure needed to grow a new generation of technical specialists -- a problem only partly rectified by the creation of Sattari Air University following the war with Iraq. In light of these problems, it is not inconceivable that Iran's two air arms might eventually merge in order to create a leaner, more efficient, and more effective organization better able to deal with future challenges.

Aviation Industry

The Islamic revolution resulted in the departure of more than 40,000 American military advisors from Iran. In March 1979 the U.S. government banned any further foreign military sales or transfers to Iran, and by November 1979 the U.S. government officially suspended all licenses for export to that country. Compounding Iran's problems, Iraq invaded in September 1980.

Sanctions forced Iran toward self-sufficiency in operating, maintaining, repairing, and modifying its existing American-built systems. The IRIAF was at the forefront of these efforts, as it had been the military branch most dependent on American assistance.

The IRIAF initially decided to produce aircraft spare parts for its own use. Teams of experts established relationships with local universities and technical schools, and by the final stages of the Iran-Iraq War, the IRIAF's Self-Sufficiency Jihad directorate (formerly the Industrial Research Unit) had set up depot-level maintenance shops in several air bases around the country. These shops were responsible for repairing systems worn out or damaged by the war.

While doing depot-level maintenance and repair, IRIAF experts drew up blueprints for aircraft parts, so that they might be reverse-engineered, using methods very similar to those used by China. A close relationship developed between the military-industrial complexes of the two countries. Many Western systems were shared with Beijing, which in turn helped Iran set up production lines for the local manufacture of these parts.

Today, Iran's aviation industries produce flight avionics and communications gear, two types of engines, airframes, in-flight refueling gear, and flight simulators. In addition, the IRIAF has produced a variety of ordnance, including both "dumb" (unguided) and "smart" (guided) bombs and air-to-air, air-to-ground, and surface-to-air missiles, including the Fatter air-to-air missile (a Sidewinder lookalike), the Sedjil (an air-to-air version of the Hawk surface-to-air missile), the AGM-379/20 Zoobin, the GBU-67/B Qadr, and the Sattar laser-guided air-to-ground missile.

*The IRIAF has also begun producing aircraft. Recent examples include the Tazarve jet-trainer and the Saegheh fighter (the latter is based on the F-5E, but has a twin vertical tail configuration to improve takeoff and maneuvering performance). Both aircraft remain in the prototype stage, and Iranian industry still has a ways to go to establish a viable design and production base.*

As for the IRGCAF, it has improved its technical base by concentrating most of its capability in a semicorporate entity, the Pars Aviation Services Company, which maintains the IRGCAF's own combat and transport fleet and provides services to local airlines that operate seventeen Tupolev Tu-154 passenger planes. Yet despite significant strides in this area, Iran continues to experience problems maintaining its aging fleet of military and civilian aircraft, a fact that has contributed to a number of major aviation disasters in the past decade.

Current Trends

Iran is the only country in the region that does not receive ongoing support from the original manufacturers of its weapons systems. Until very recently, Russia had not been deeply involved in the maintenance of Iran's Eastern bloc weapon systems. Moreover, as a result of U.S. pressure, Russia has refused to provide Iran with newer combat aircraft beyond those ordered in the late 1980s and early 1990s, though Russia recently agreed to upgrade and modernize the avionics and weapons systems in Iran's existing fleet of MiG-29 and Su-24 aircraft. As far as new purchases are concerned, Iran has largely had to settle for semi-obsolescent designs from China.

Nonetheless, the Iranian air and air defense forces can count on the advantage conferred by strategic depth and a domestic military-industrial capacity, which has enabled Iran to keep aloft an aging aircraft fleet in the face of wars and sanctions.

Iran's senior military leaders know that its air forces would not be able to resist an invasion by a major power such as the United States. As a result, Iran has not focused on creating a large military, but rather has emphasized making the most of its existing capabilities by developing the abilities to conduct continuous, day and night operations through the development of night vision equipment; to wage asymmetrical warfare by creating a large popular militia (the Basij) and sea denial capabilities; and to strike even its most distant enemies by acquiring reconnaissance satellites, high altitude reconnaissance and strike UAVs, and short- and medium-range ballistic missile systems.

Fariborz Haghshenass is an expert on the Iranian military.

I am doubtfull about their claim.


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## HAIDER

Any picture of this stealth fighter ?


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## Cyrus the Great

below_freezing said:


> what's wrong? does iran have too many friends and allies? lets be honest here, it's not north korea in danger of a regime change. besides, north korea's MiGs can be supplied from china for free if they are invaded, what about iran?
> 
> also iranian logistics is going to be a nightmare, you have planes from 5 different countries all using different systems. north korea has equipment from 3 countries, itself/china/russia, and chinese technology is compatible with russian (but not the other way around).



1-Iran never want unreliable ally 2- only Iranian can change Iran regime but even you Chinese are not capable to effect your monarchy elites system3- China is sacred of US and voting against all its friends even N.K, so should i believe china will provide weapon to N.K?4- now China is sick of money and US tech so ready to sell her old friend like N.K to US.

please do not talk about chinese help when crisis become hot


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## Cyrus the Great

Hammy007 said:


> i cannot believe these iranians are making cheap shots at pakistan missiles which were developed long before iranian once, now iranians during their national threat of being attacked by foreginers in the wake of their nuclear development(tech provided by pak) are suddenly coming up with these missiles and claiming these are developed by them. oil power speaks a lot btw.



why do you compare Iran and Pak? Iran and Pak neither are enemy nor rival.
I can not understand why when we talk about Iran some friends feel unconformable?unless Rigi did Iran and Pak have big challenge? for sure not.

oil has power but not against freinds.


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## Cyrus the Great

below_freezing said:


> and i applaud iran for being independent but unfortunately this is the time where being independent takes a secondary priority to surviving as a nation-state. north korea has survived, without surrendering any autonomy to any other country. can iran do the same this year? the world is waiting anxiously.
> 
> russia, china and maybe even india won't let iran go down though.



i think being dead independent even is better than being alive but slave of others.
look at the history, every nation feared then occupied.
as long as Chinese did not get brave Tianjin, Dalian ,.... many places were under Japanese control but as soon as you get enough brave to fight with them you got back your country even with less tech


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## Cyrus the Great

Abi said:


> Your missiles are Chinese and NK missiles with a different name, there are no changes and no upgrades. Iran's missiles were originally based on the Nodong which we have long improved on and now we have the Sejil, more advanced than anything Pakistan has bought from China.
> 
> It is ridiculous to say Pakistan has helped Iran, the only thing "Iranian" you've helped is Jundullah.



we must forget Rigi, he was a Saudi made cancer for Iran and Pak relation


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## Cyrus the Great

gambit said:


> The topic is an Iranian 'stealth' fighter. If people remain 'on topic' this thread would not have gone as far as it is. The idea of an Iranian 'stealth' fighter is a joke and it has gone stale a long time ago. So what else is there for people to do but to do but go off topic?



if you are right, good for you, then why americam commanders are so scared of Iran? just go to their several reports about war against Iran.


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## applesauce

Cyrus the Great said:


> if you are right, good for you, then why americam commanders are so scared of Iran? just go to their several reports about war against Iran.



american commanders are not afraid of iran a war would last less than a month, there are other much larger/more powerful foes for them to be "afraid" of. of course American media like to report others as very powerful (most of the time china or russia) to get more funding or other goals


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## applesauce

Cyrus the Great said:


> 1-Iran never want unreliable ally 2- only Iranian can change Iran regime but even you Chinese are not capable to effect your monarchy elites system3- China is sacred of US and voting against all its friends even N.K, so should i believe china will provide weapon to N.K?4- now China is sick of money and US tech so ready to sell her old friend like N.K to US.
> 
> please do not talk about chinese help when crisis become hot



unreliable allies? ... u mean no allies

china scared of us? right of course chian is scared of the us but iran is very brave

and china is not a all weather friend of n.korea anymore their dictator is out of his mind, n. korea is only good as a buffer state now and only thing they have on china is the millions of refugees coming into china if the regime falls the last time china wants is nuclear arms race in asia


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## applesauce

Cyrus the Great said:


> i think being dead independent even is better than being alive but slave of others.
> look at the history, every nation feared then occupied.
> as long as Chinese did not get brave Tianjin, Dalian ,.... many places were under Japanese control but as soon as you get enough brave to fight with them you got back your country even with less tech



looking at history only shows when the government is weak the state is taken advantage of by other as shown by the qing dynasty in china but when the CCP and nationalist got together and their leadership was able to hold off japan even with the backwards military china had at the time, it has nothing to do with the bravery of the soldiers


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## Luftwaffe

applesauce..correction no nation is scared of us they know they've no technological output to challenge us but they've will to fight to the end..
There is 0&#37; chances of China being scared of us. Threat there is always threat and China is doing all so to prepare for it Scared? no my friend re-assess again.


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## su-47

Cyrus the Great said:


> if you are right, good for you, then why americam commanders are so scared of Iran? just go to their several reports about war against Iran.



American commanders are not scared of Iran. What scares american commanders most is, ironically, the american people. 

If you look at american military history, you will see that they have always lost after public opinion turned against them. They lost in Vietnam when american public put pressure on them to withdraw. And now they are planning to leave Iraq and Afghanistan due to public being averse to those wars

But when USA has public support, they will sweep anything before them, like in WW2 which was much costlier in lives and money than Vietnam or WoT. 

Even in Iraq War, american public supported US invasion, but they did not support US occupation. I think it'll be the same case with Iran. If USA attacks, and just attacks, but not occupies, then Iran will be in some trouble, since US military tech is much more advanced. USA can just use stealth aircraft to attack Iranian targets.

But if USA decides to occupy Iran, it'll end in another defeat for USA. Iran will put up a stiff challenge with guerilla tactics, and the US public will be baying for the blood of US generals.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Good post by su -47.
and iran's claim of stealth fighter development is not really feasible,as iran has lost all credibility after photoshopping the last times when the initial pictures showed 3 sam launches,while 2 only were achieved.and they still posted these on the world media,shows how desperate they are ,no other country would have posted pictures of failed missile launches as success but i think iran is desperate enough that it took 2 successes as enough for them.and that was sam tech. stealth tech?
no offense, but the age when religious zeal and fanatiscm swept aside every enemy in their path ended with the invention of gunpowder.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Cyrus the Great

su-47 said:


> American commanders are not scared of Iran. What scares american commanders most is, ironically, the american people.
> 
> If you look at american military history, you will see that they have always lost after public opinion turned against them. They lost in Vietnam when american public put pressure on them to withdraw. And now they are planning to leave Iraq and Afghanistan due to public being averse to those wars
> 
> But when USA has public support, they will sweep anything before them, like in WW2 which was much costlier in lives and money than Vietnam or WoT.
> 
> Even in Iraq War, american public supported US invasion, but they did not support US occupation. I think it'll be the same case with Iran. If USA attacks, and just attacks, but not occupies, then Iran will be in some trouble, since US military tech is much more advanced. USA can just use stealth aircraft to attack Iranian targets.
> 
> But if USA decides to occupy Iran, it'll end in another defeat for USA. Iran will put up a stiff challenge with guerilla tactics, and the US public will be baying for the blood of US generals.



when i say US is afraid of Iran it does not mean they can not attack.
it means Iran is not easy target and will fightback which US army is not used to get responds for their target.
US can harm Iran with air force attack and will lose some warplane but i seriously doubt US ground force can inter Iran Iran from Persian Gulf and west and east sides well protected. only Caspian sea does not have Iran military but geographically US can not inter from there.
but very important point is Iran will take down US with herself and power shifting will accelerate, US wont be able to stay in first power position in world anymore. this is US main concern


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## Cyrus the Great

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Good post by su -47.
> and iran's claim of stealth fighter development is not really feasible,as iran has lost all credibility after photoshopping the last times when the initial pictures showed 3 sam launches,while 2 only were achieved.and they still posted these on the world media,shows how desperate they are ,no other country would have posted pictures of failed missile launches as success but i think iran is desperate enough that it took 2 successes as enough for them.and that was sam tech. stealth tech?
> no offense, but the age when religious zeal and fanatiscm swept aside every enemy in their path ended with the invention of gunpowder.



yes there is a debate about feasibility of project in Iran from economical point of view, but it does not mean this project is stopped. as long as money comes project will work.
1/2 scale of stealth already flew.
fake photo of missile is western media made joke and worthless to answer that


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## below_freezing

su-47 said:


> American commanders are not scared of Iran. What scares american commanders most is, ironically, the american people.
> 
> If you look at american military history, you will see that they have always lost after public opinion turned against them. They lost in Vietnam when american public put pressure on them to withdraw. And now they are planning to leave Iraq and Afghanistan due to public being averse to those wars
> 
> But when USA has public support, they will sweep anything before them, like in WW2 which was much costlier in lives and money than Vietnam or WoT.
> 
> Even in Iraq War, american public supported US invasion, but they did not support US occupation. I think it'll be the same case with Iran. If USA attacks, and just attacks, but not occupies, then Iran will be in some trouble, since US military tech is much more advanced. USA can just use stealth aircraft to attack Iranian targets.
> 
> But if USA decides to occupy Iran, it'll end in another defeat for USA. Iran will put up a stiff challenge with guerilla tactics, and the US public will be baying for the blood of US generals.



Don't think so, they lost Vietnam because Soviets and China propped Vietnam up and told the US not 1 step over the 17th parallel, and they didn't. As for air raids, you can check up on how many planes got downed by North Vietnamese (actually Chinese owned, armed and operated) anti-aircraft fire. It was so bad that they were forced to retire the F-105 because so many had been shot down (382/830). The F-4 that replaced it didn't fare better, 760 F-4's were lost in Vietnam.

"The RF-4C was operated by four squadrons,[59] and of the 83 losses, 72 were in combat including 38 over North Vietnam (seven to SAMs and 65 to AAA).[58] By war's end the U.S. Air Force had lost a total of 528 F-4 and RF-4C Phantoms. When combined with U.S. Naval and Marine losses of 233 Phantoms, 761 F-4/RF-4 Phantoms were lost in the Vietnam War." F-4 Phantom II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was not a "political loss" as the US propaganda shows, the US military knows itself that it was a hard military loss.

Well, it was a political loss in the sense that when your country loses 1000 planes to a seemingly weak and backwards 3rd world country, the public hates your military.

If Iran gets the same help Vietnam got during the 1960's, I don't think the US would do very well.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Get help from who?the entire middle east hates iran for some reason,and unlike vietnam where supplies could be directly recieved from adjacent china,ussr through china,here is not the case. 
iran is on its own,now us in afganisthan is going to stay busy,but they are withdrawing from iraq in a rapid pace,so after the withdrawal is complete,us could just feel free to attack iran.
now lot of members are saying 11 million paramilitary forces and huge standing army will crush us land forces and all that but they have to understand modern wars are won by concentrating firepower rather than manpower.
now they say that iran if attacked will attack puny american land force in afganisthan and sweep it away.the problem is lack of air cover,in a modern war no offensive action is possible without air supremacy as egypt learned vs israel.secondly when attacking u have to operate outside ur country that is ur natural logistical base.its no good having millions of personnel if u can't keep them supplied,tanks need ammunition,vehicles need spares,artillery shells and the army ammunition.to keep ur army in a fighting condition u must have an industrial base to continously build these and supply them.these are not like days when people fought with swords.
first of all, us army intelligence is second to none,any mass concentration of land forces will be picked up by satellites and jstor intelligence planes.and they will come under murderous aerial strafing and bombing and ur supply lines interdicted and industrial base under assault.so i am afraid iran will have to eventually resort to guerilla fighting afghan style.luckily for them they have a large pool of motivated manpower to do that,however they don't have safe haven from american forces like taliban had in nwfp to regroup after setbacks.so they just have to hold tight and wait for u.s public opinion to shift.
The unfortunate or fortunate[depending on ur pov] fact is no nation at present can really win a conventional war against usa.it is a fact we must live with.


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## applesauce

luftwaffe said:


> applesauce..correction no nation is scared of us they know they've no technological output to challenge us but they've will to fight to the end..
> There is 0&#37; chances of China being scared of us. Threat there is always threat and China is doing all so to prepare for it Scared? no my friend re-assess again.



it was sarcasm, china wouldn't have butted heads with the us so often if they were scared the us couldnt ever win a ground war in china anyways


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## zulfiqar74

luftwaffe said:


> yes the whatever thing they've designed/develop might not be what they claim my fella Pakistani members they've copied but atleast develop helicopters while we're begging..something is better than nothing right?



iran will be the next china in modern warfare, equipment, and i think they are way far ahead but they dont want the world to know their actual capabilities. As for pak they keep begging they have the tot for agosta 90, jf17, f22p still they cant make their own stuff still waiting for others to give them more for free like beggers. By now they should have made 6 F22p, atleast 7 agosta 90 the whole country is full of beggers and looters, from the main streets to the parliment house. Iran would have been better of in acquiring these tots then us. very sad


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## farhan_9909

THe news is true?

if true then congrats my iranian brothers

Iran is going toward indigious ness..

we only hav one aircraft which is JV nt indigious
f-22p with TOT nothing new..

our this govt is nothing doing for defence

only mush was good for defense


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## zulfiqar74

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Get help from who?the entire middle east hates iran for some reason,and unlike vietnam where supplies could be directly recieved from adjacent china,ussr through china,here is not the case.
> iran is on its own,now us in afganisthan is going to stay busy,but they are withdrawing from iraq in a rapid pace,so after the withdrawal is complete,us could just feel free to attack iran.
> now lot of members are saying 11 million paramilitary forces and huge standing army will crush us land forces and all that but they have to understand modern wars are won by concentrating firepower rather than manpower.
> now they say that iran if attacked will attack puny american land force in afganisthan and sweep it away.the problem is lack of air cover,in a modern war no offensive action is possible without air supremacy as egypt learned vs israel.secondly when attacking u have to operate outside ur country that is ur natural logistical base.its no good having millions of personnel if u can't keep them supplied,tanks need ammunition,vehicles need spares,artillery shells and the army ammunition.to keep ur army in a fighting condition u must have an industrial base to continously build these and supply them.these are not like days when people fought with swords.
> first of all, us army intelligence is second to none,any mass concentration of land forces will be picked up by satellites and jstor intelligence planes.and they will come under murderous aerial strafing and bombing and ur supply lines interdicted and industrial base under assault.so i am afraid iran will have to eventually resort to guerilla fighting afghan style.luckily for them they have a large pool of motivated manpower to do that,however they don't have safe haven from american forces like taliban had in nwfp to regroup after setbacks.so they just have to hold tight and wait for u.s public opinion to shift.
> The unfortunate or fortunate[depending on ur pov] fact is no nation at present can really win a conventional war against usa.it is a fact we must live with.



US does not have the balls to win against iran nor north korea on its own even having all those technology there are plenty of counter measures to all the high tech that US has. If afghanistan was backed by russians or any other country then US had no chance to walk around in afghan with their chest full of air, unfortunately Saddam was an ediot and a classic dum dum a puppet of the US, he was a rotwiler in the arab state that went out of control that had to be put down. he was a coward as well. if He was wise and a true leader like the iranians have, iraq would still be iraq as before maybe even lot better in economic, civil and defence aspects.


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## below_freezing

Cyrus the Great said:


> 1-Iran never want unreliable ally 2- only Iranian can change Iran regime but even you Chinese are not capable to effect your monarchy elites system3- China is sacred of US and voting against all its friends even N.K, so should i believe china will provide weapon to N.K?4- now China is sick of money and US tech so ready to sell her old friend like N.K to US.
> 
> please do not talk about chinese help when crisis become hot



number of countries china has sold out: zero!

how are we selling out north korea lol? does the US dare touch north korea? lol. when the south korean ship sank, what did the US do besides whimper in the corner? if they wanted to they could've said it was north korea then bombed, but they didn't.

can iran do the same? go sink a saudi ship, see what happens?

iranians have NO allies. there is not 1 country in the world that will go to war for iran.

so if you don't want iran to be extinguished, you better start making friends. but don't worry though - china and russia will prop iran up, just because if iran falls then the US will dominate the whole middle east.

if going by the comments here, iranians are quite short sighted and stubborn. luckily, the people sitting in tehran are much wiser.


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## SinoIndusFriendship

below_freezing said:


> *number of countries china has sold out: zero!*
> 
> *how are we selling out north korea lol? does the US dare touch north korea? lol. when the south korean ship sank, what did the US do besides whimper in the corner? if they wanted to they could've said it was north korea then bombed, but they didn't.*
> 
> *can iran do the same? go sink a saudi ship, see what happens?*
> 
> *iranians have NO allies. there is not 1 country in the world that will go to war for iran.
> *
> *so if you don't want iran to be extinguished, you better start making friends. but don't worry though - china and russia will prop iran up, just because if iran falls then the US will dominate the whole middle east.*
> 
> *if going by the comments here, iranians are quite short sighted and stubborn. *luckily, the people sitting in tehran are much wiser.



I'm concerned that going by the comments of Iranians here...


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## below_freezing

i'd like to think they're CIA agents with fake iranian accounts, but given the history of iranian extremism, i'm not so sure.

i mean it's easy to point out the CIA agents from other countries, but with iran you're never sure whether they're serious or not.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Nima

below_freezing said:


> i'd like to think they're CIA agents with fake iranian accounts, but given the history of iranian extremism, i'm not so sure.
> 
> i mean it's easy to point out the CIA agents from other countries, but with iran you're never sure whether they're serious or not.



lmao
This is hilarious!

Everybody has an image of Iran and when we come up and shatter that image we're suddenly called CIA agents!
Somebody else was calling me a Jew today! hahaha


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## sohan

Not even China has built one yet, and Iran has?


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## IndianArmy

Why does every one think Odd? No one expected that India could research and Build an aircraft in the late 60's, No one expected that India could build its first jet engine in the late 50's, No one expected that India has Capability to explore space in the 60's ..... So Why cant Iran have there stealth aircraft??? Simple logic, they are on there path of growth, Necessity is the mother of Invention, They have no other go but to Do it as they are being cornered by the west...


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## zulfiqar74

below_freezing said:


> number of countries china has sold out: zero!
> 
> how are we selling out north korea lol? does the US dare touch north korea? lol. when the south korean ship sank, what did the US do besides whimper in the corner? if they wanted to they could've said it was north korea then bombed, but they didn't.
> 
> can iran do the same? go sink a saudi ship, see what happens?
> 
> iranians have NO allies. there is not 1 country in the world that will go to war for iran.
> 
> so if you don't want iran to be extinguished, you better start making friends. but don't worry though - china and russia will prop iran up, just because if iran falls then the US will dominate the whole middle east.
> 
> if going by the comments here, iranians are quite short sighted and stubborn. luckily, the people sitting in tehran are much wiser.



100% true but must correct you they are very long sighted and they would not extinguished that easily by any western power, they will take a few down with them, its not iraq or afghan you are dealing with. Iran will be backed by North Korea, china and russia. syria, libya, turkey. man power from lots of hard line countries like palestine, lebenon, pakistan afghan iraq. They have lots of equipments but they prefer to put an empty front. Try google any specific weapons made in iran, you will not get any information, why because wekipedia or any other sources do not have axcess to those information nor does any other websites. they will only show what they want the US or the world to see. they dont want to reveal their actual strength or power.


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## applesauce

Nima said:


> lmao
> This is hilarious!
> 
> Everybody has an image of Iran and when we come up and shatter that image we're suddenly called CIA agents!
> Somebody else was calling me a Jew today! hahaha



shatter.... shatter what? there is no proof other than words of the Iranian government of this and given the billions others had to spend on it and years of development there is no way Iran can make any kind of credible stealth fighter, a drone maybe...even there i have doubts, unless you saying Iran is richer, smarter than all other larger countries

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------




zulfiqar74 said:


> 100% true but must correct you they are very long sighted and they would not extinguished that easily by any western power, they will take a few down with them, its not iraq or afghan you are dealing with. Iran will be backed by North Korea, china and russia. syria, libya, turkey. man power from lots of hard line countries like palestine, lebenon, pakistan afghan iraq. They have lots of equipments but they prefer to put an empty front. Try google any specific weapons made in iran, you will not get any information, why because wekipedia or any other sources do not have axcess to those information nor does any other websites. they will only show what they want the US or the world to see. they dont want to reveal their actual strength or power.



no info cause they dont have those weapons


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## Nima

applesauce said:


> shatter.... shatter what? there is no proof other than words of the Iranian government of this and given the billions others had to spend on it and years of development there is no way Iran can make any kind of credible stealth fighter, a drone maybe...even there i have doubts, unless you saying Iran is richer, smarter than all other larger countries
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> no info cause they dont have those weapons



my response was to below freezing.
He's saying we Iranians on this site are too cocky and arrogant. 
I never claimed Iran has made this though. I know we can make drones but that's pretty much it.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## mehrzad

applesauce said:


> shatter.... shatter what? there is no proof other than words of the Iranian government of this and given the billions others had to spend on it and years of development there is no way Iran can make any kind of credible stealth fighter, a drone maybe...even there i have doubts, unless you saying Iran is richer, smarter than all other larger countries
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> no info cause they dont have those weapons


What a stupid argument just because we havent the brain to make a stealth fighter so nor does iran!! when it comes to china>: iran despite of the 8 years war with iraq has come a long way comparing to china with copy-industial "revolution"!! so comparing the time and sanctions iran has to bulid up devastations of war, one with a decent portion of brain would easily conclude that iran has had just around 15 years of calmness of course with hardest sanctions , so dont underestimate iran.


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## applesauce

Nima said:


> my response was to below freezing.
> He's saying we Iranians on this site are too cocky and arrogant.
> I never claimed Iran has made this though. I know we can make drones but that's pretty much it.



dont know about members on here but certainly some of the news coming out of iran and some of its claims are certainly "cocky" as you put it.


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## shiningindia

> "The plane, due to its physical attributes and the material used in its body, cannot be detected by any radar," Brigadier General Aziz Nasirzadeh, the force's coordination deputy, was quoted as saying.



first thing america spend billions of dollor to build such aircraft who can not detected by any radar but they are not still successful. and iran build it only by little afford.


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## applesauce

mehrzad said:


> What a stupid argument just because we havent the brain to make a stealth fighter so nor does iran!! when it comes to china>: iran despite of the 8 years war with iraq has come a long way comparing to china with copy-industial "revolution"!! so comparing the time and sanctions iran has to bulid up devastations of war, one with a decent portion of brain would easily conclude that iran has had just around 15 years of calmness of course with hardest sanctions , so dont underestimate iran.



*ha *so you ARE claiming iran is smarter than every country on earth, given that us took 20 years+ and billion and russia and china and the like has no stealth fight in production. and you your self makes the claim that iran has had 15 years.

its not because we cant do it you cant either,

its it took us 20 years and 65 billions dollars and this is in the most innovative country on earth with 100 years of top notch aircraft development with the most advanced technologies available anywhere in the world and the end product is shown in multiply airshows photographs are widely available then iran come along and despite having comparatively little money, was never top notch in aircraft production, using technologies that are definitively not the best in the world,last known the f-14 is its most potent aircraft one made in the us and retired at that, claims that they have produce a product that is not seem anywhere nor can anyone confirm outside of its government well any layman can see why their claims are dubious at best and given that the US's competitor who if they could, would certainly field comparable aircraft to the f-22 have not been able to do so, what is so special about iran that would makes us believe this claim?


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## Pasban

Generally speaking, there is apparently so much dislike and under-estimation of Iran on this forum. Iran plays into Information Warfare and hence you see these claims. This is one way the Iranian foreign policy functions. Because of this I myself am unsure as to Iran's military abilities because of so much misinformation stemming from Iran itself let alone other nations. Moreover, it seems to work better for Iran when it's claims are doubted. The government in Tehran is by far more cautious and pragmatic concerning it's foreign policies then people assume it to be. That being said, what news Iran give out about it's defense policies or projects should be analyzed deeply for they are meant to cast different impressions on different people.


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## Black Stone

below_freezing said:


> how are we selling out north korea lol? does the US dare touch north korea? lol. when the south korean ship sank, what did the US do besides whimper in the corner? if they wanted to they could've said it was north korea then bombed, but they didn't.



The Dear Leader is famous to have the balls to do things where no leader would.

Tell the Dear Leader to go on public TV, broadcasting to the world that they sank the Cheonan. 

Then see what happens.


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## below_freezing

mehrzad said:


> What a stupid argument just because we havent the brain to make a stealth fighter so nor does iran!! when it comes to china>: iran despite of the 8 years war with iraq has come a long way comparing to china with copy-industial "revolution"!! so comparing the time and sanctions iran has to bulid up devastations of war, one with a decent portion of brain would easily conclude that iran has had just around 15 years of calmness of course with hardest sanctions , so dont underestimate iran.



Are you seriously, seriously comparing the industrial scientific capabilities of Iran and China? I just want to ask you 1 thing:

Can iran make its own MRI machine or electron microscope? Is iran self sufficient in computer controlled milling machines and semiconductors, or even petroleum products? It is laughable to compare Iran to China. Your chemical engineering industry is so backwards it cannot even process your own oil. Come back when you've caught up to Venezuela, don't even talk about China.


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## Black Stone

shiningindia said:


> first thing america spend billions of dollor to build such aircraft who can not detected by any radar but they are not still successful. and iran build it only by little afford.



That is because Iran is a superpower.


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## Pasban

below_freezing said:


> i'd like to think they're CIA agents with fake iranian accounts, but given the history of iranian extremism, i'm not so sure.
> 
> i mean it's easy to point out the CIA agents from other countries, but with iran you're never sure whether they're serious or not.



You are actually quiet correct in this assumption for it is very much true. A lot of people on the Internet are would-be Iranians with a very defined agenda. Many of whom who are Iranians themselves participate and this and also fall victim to such vested interests. You should know about this well as the same is done for China. I personally have much respect for the Chinese as do a lot of Iranians. They are a hardworking people. Look at where China was in 1949 and compare it to where China is today and this despite the fact that many odds were stacked against China as well. Please do not fall victim to anti-Chinese sentiment that may be displayed here as it is improper to paint all Chinese in one way and the same holds true for Iran. The people of Iran may indeed reach great heights but they require much time and determination.

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## Pasban

I removed this post


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## below_freezing

Pasban said:


> You are actually quiet correct in this assumption for it is very much true. A lot of people on the Internet are would-be Iranians with a very defined agenda. Many of whom who are Iranians themselves participate and this and also fall victim to such vested interests. You should know about this well as the same is done for China. I personally have much respect for the Chinese as do a lot of Iranians. They are a hardworking people. Look at where China was in 1949 and compare it to where China is today and this despite the fact that many odds were stacked against China as well. Please do not fall victim to anti-Chinese sentiment that may be displayed here as it is improper to paint all Chinese in one way and the same holds true for Iran. The people of Iran may indeed reach great heights but they require much time and determination.



a sane viewpoint in an age of madness. let's just discuss the matter at hand without bashing anyone.

i am quite aware of fake CIA news about all countries. there was an incident where allegedly iranian hackers defaced china's most popular website baidu. later it was tracked down to have originated from the US.


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## mehrzad

below_freezing said:


> Are you seriously, seriously comparing the industrial scientific capabilities of Iran and China? I just want to ask you 1 thing:
> 
> Can iran make its own MRI machine or electron microscope? Is iran self sufficient in computer controlled milling machines and semiconductors, or even petroleum products? It is laughable to compare Iran to China. Your chemical engineering industry is so backwards it cannot even process your own oil. Come back when you've caught up to Venezuela, don't even talk about China.


Will be there brother dont worry about it, as I said your have had 60 years for doing it we just around 15 years just see the trend you then can guess where we will be I the next 30 years. 
By the way you have good detergents!

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## below_freezing

mehrzad said:


> Will be there brother dont worry about it, as I said your have had 60 years for doing it we just around 15 years just see the trend you then can guess where we will be I the next 30 years.
> By the way you have good detergents!



so don't brag then and don't be like the indians that always say "we WILL". like you said who knows what the future is. it's better to say we ARE.


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## mehrzad

below_freezing said:


> so don't brag then and don't be like the indians that always say "we WILL". like you said who knows what the future is. it's better to say we ARE.


No body brag about anything for me Pakistanis forum bring others advancements to this forum for just one purpose to patronize it


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## TOPGUN

There is not stealthy about this aircraft plzz..


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## SomeGuy




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## Kompromat

^These can be UAV's but not Stealth fighters.


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## genetic_nomad

wow me likey, good for Iran wohoo!!


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## Pasban

If the needless bashing can now end.. we can progress with some analysis of the project..

The topic concerns the Sofreh Mahi [&#1587;&#1601;&#1585;&#1607; &#1605;&#1575;&#1607;&#1740;] (Eagle Ray/ Flat Fish) UCAV and the Stealth Aircraft. The pictures posted above show both craft and it is important to note the difference as such. At present, the proposed UCAV is at best only likely to be a scale model rather than an actual UCAV but it isn't very big so it's use military as of right now might be limited. Likely though if it does fly the Iranian (French-based) Tolue-4/5 is the likely power-plant.

I've actually found an interesting comparison for Iran's Stealth model. Before the Neuron UCAV program started in Europe the French had a very active stealth drone program made up of flying sub-scale models designed to test Stealth technology and I believe both of these models Iran has shown off are for similar purposes. More specifically the Dassault Petit Duc bears a striking resemblance to Iran's Diamond shaped model (especially in the tail design). From the pictures posted of the models on the truck I think we can guess the drone has a wingspan or between 2-3 meters which corresponds well to the Petit Duc. Here are the specs of the Petit Duc:

Length- 2.4meters
Wingspan- 2.4meters
Weight- 60kg loaded
Speed- Mach 0.5 Max
Endurance- 150km
Powerplant- 2 x AMT Olympus (45lbs thrust each)





Below is a good example of why the craft was named as such by Iran..

Sofreh Mahi ("&#1587;&#1601;&#1585;&#1607; &#1605;&#1575;&#1607;&#1740;") "Eagle Ray"



This image showcases the two distinct projects


There are issues with using the Tolue-4/5 engines; look at the size of this drone compared to the trailer. The engines appear too small to be the Tolue engine but again we cannot be sure without actual dimensions. However, since we know the Tolue-4 is based on the Micro TR-60, we know it likely has a diameter of .343 meters which means the drone would have to have a wingspan of at least 3 meters.



Building these models would aide Iran in better understand RCS tech and I wonder if that was actually one the biggest reasons they were built to test Iran's stealth technology (at whatever stage Iran is in this regard). But as such the need for all-moving tailplanes on such models isn't very necessary so I wont expect them to be present. The Recon/bomber model I believe we will see fly much sooner than its fighter counterpart simply because it wont need an expensive and complicated flight control system (in the full scale model I mean). The fighter model to me is just that, a model. Iran is likely testing to see if its a stable and practical design by building a subscale model and to test its relative RCS which they can then extrapilate to see how stealthy a full-sized aircraft would be. The technology needed for such a design is still likely several years away but 5th Generation fighters usually take many many years of R&D before even a prototype flies. Just random thoughts...

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## gubbi

Black Blood said:


> ^These can be UAV's but not Stealth fighters.



That was exactly my first impression. On the first model (the Raptor lookalike), the air intake is above the fuselage. I wonder how it would effectively provide uninterrupted air supply to the engines while carrying our extreme maneuvers - a prerequisite for 5th gen combat aircraft. Secondly the engine exhaust nozzles are covered with the engine casing of the fuselage, so how would thrust vectoring work there? I don't even want to comment on the second model (the triangular one).

Lastly, I seriously doubt that Iran has the advanced technological know how to produce a decent 4th gen fighter (advanced engines, avionics, the bells and whistles). C'mon, the best Iran has done till now is rehash Vietnam era US aircraft and give them fancy Persian names and put them out as "indigenous", and I am talking about the F-5 Tiger. They cant even make (copy) the F-14 Tomcat (last I heard that many aircraft are being cannibalized to keep the few flying). 
Thats just what I think. Correct me if I am wrong. Any pros comments on the models?

Anyhow the Persians are doing a damn good job at keeping their aircraft flying in face of such crippling sanctions. If only their leaders could be more pragmatic, but then thats wishful thinking. My heart goes out for the Persians.


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## SomeGuy

Black Blood said:


> ^These can be UAV's but not Stealth fighters.



I think 1 is meant to be a fighter design and 1 is a UAV design.


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## Pasban

gubbi said:


> That was exactly my first impression. On the first model (the Raptor lookalike), the air intake is above the fuselage. I wonder how it would effectively provide uninterrupted air supply to the engines while carrying our extreme maneuvers - a prerequisite for 5th gen combat aircraft. Secondly the engine exhaust nozzles are covered with the engine casing of the fuselage, so how would thrust vectoring work there? I don't even want to comment on the second model (the triangular one).



Gubbi, these are just scale models and one can expect several alternations. I don't believe the fighter-model is a fully functional model and may just be a large wind tunnel test model but thats just my opinion. I don't think it is intended to be a functional aircraft either rather a testbed for technological improvements. The other model (Diamond-shaped one) looks like it will be designed for Recon or bombing perhaps so extreme maneuverability won't really be a tremendous necessity anyway. 

On a side note, here is an example of such a mounted intake (this one much closer to cockpit), the F-107 Super Super Sabre...




> Lastly, I seriously doubt that Iran has the advanced technological know how to produce a decent 4th gen fighter (advanced engines, avionics, the bells and whistles). C'mon, the best Iran has done till now is rehash Vietnam era US aircraft and give them fancy Persian names and put them out as "indigenous", and I am talking about the F-5 Tiger. They cant even make (copy) the F-14 Tomcat (last I heard that many aircraft are being cannibalized to keep the few flying).



The most fitting scenario for Iran at present would be a stable platform for 4.5 generation aircraft or a purchased 4.5 generation aircraft. In any case, information on Iran's aerospace abilities is only based on speculation and judgment because Iran purposefully engages in Information Warfare with statements and releases to cause both doubts and alarms. As for the F-5, considering it's paint scheme and the fact that its wings do not have adapters for carrying armaments, I doubt that it is actually intended to serve the IRIAF. Rather, it is being used as a testing ground. I shall post pictures in a more dedicated article of the differences in even those models that have been shown of the aircraft. I don't think Iran has any intention of copying the F-14. I'll post my opinion in regard of this is in a different thread. As for cannibalization, the fleet is smaller than what Iran started with and during the 80s much cannibalization was needed. Since the early 90s Iran has been attempting to manufacture as many components of it as its industrial base allows. Recently, Iran has developed upgrades from them as well.



> Anyhow the Persians are doing a damn good job at keeping their aircraft flying in face of such crippling sanctions. If only their leaders could be more pragmatic, but then thats wishful thinking. My heart goes out for the Persians.



This is un-related to the thread but Persians restricts the definition to the Pars only and moreover it is a foreign term (of Greek origin). The preferred terminology is Iran and Iranian. For example, I'm Iranian but not necessarily Persian (I have an Azeri background). 

As to the leadership, I believe they are more pragmatic than one assumes considering Iran's defense-related measures within the prisms of it's limitations which are great given that import of dual-use items/technologies is also restricted to Iran. So far the development projects initiated regarding the defense-centered issues are more or less on the mark. Internal policies and as such are a different subject matter altogether from this one.

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## ptldM3

SomeGuy said:


>



Beautiful design indeed but if these prove to be a reality the avionics will lack.


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## mehrzad

Pasban said:


> Gubbi, these are just scale models and one can expect several alternations. I don't believe the fighter-model is a fully functional model and may just be a large wind tunnel test model but thats just my opinion. I don't think it is intended to be a functional aircraft either rather a testbed for technological improvements. The other model (Diamond-shaped one) looks like it will be designed for Recon or bombing perhaps so extreme maneuverability won't really be a tremendous necessity anyway.
> 
> On a side note, here is an example of such a mounted intake (this one much closer to cockpit), the F-107 Super Super Sabre...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most fitting scenario for Iran at present would be a stable platform for 4.5 generation aircraft or a purchased 4.5 generation aircraft. In any case, information on Iran's aerospace abilities is only based on speculation and judgment because Iran purposefully engages in Information Warfare with statements and releases to cause both doubts and alarms. As for the F-5, considering it's paint scheme and the fact that its wings do not have adapters for carrying armaments, I doubt that it is actually intended to serve the IRIAF. Rather, it is being used as a testing ground. I shall post pictures in a more dedicated article of the differences in even those models that have been shown of the aircraft. I don't think Iran has any intention of copying the F-14. I'll post my opinion in regard of this is in a different thread. As for cannibalization, the fleet is smaller than what Iran started with and during the 80s much cannibalization was needed. Since the early 90s Iran has been attempting to manufacture as many components of it as its industrial base allows. Recently, Iran has developed upgrades from them as well.
> 
> 
> 
> This is un-related to the thread but Persians restricts the definition to the Pars only and moreover it is a foreign term (of Greek origin). The preferred terminology is Iran and Iranian. For example, I'm Iranian but not necessarily Persian (I have an Azeri background).
> 
> As to the leadership, I believe they are more pragmatic than one assumes considering Iran's defense-related measures within the prisms of it's limitations which are great given that import of dual-use items/technologies is also restricted to Iran. So far the development projects initiated regarding the defense-centered issues are more or less on the mark. Internal policies and as such are a different subject matter altogether from this one.


Why using so much time on this brother? It should be discussed on a mutual respective ground and a real fact finding forum like an academic not the one like this whose members only goal is to bash the other one. Don&#8217;t take it so seriously it wont achieve anything but the loss of your precious time!! thank you

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## nomi007

Iran is working with mig on their mig1.42 project


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## Irfan Baloch

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Great peaceful nation of Persia don't know why ppl don't like Iran
> 
> They don't attack anyone, they live in their country , they love sports
> 
> And they also take part in peaceful debate
> 
> Yet the world just does not like Persian civilization to stand up and be noted for its achivemets.
> 
> Great wonderful achievement by Iran - and its engineer heart warming to see them do so well , hopefully the trade with
> 
> Wonderful people great nation - peace loving people that speak out when they see unjust in world true honor



I think this image is that of the plane called Shafaq which was under development


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## TorontoNoctis

I don't see what's so hard about making a stealth UCAV. The mathematics and physics have been known since the 60's*1* and the only bottleneck was computers.

Iran can easily find powerful enough off-the-shelf computers and CAD software powerful enough to design a stealth shape. Combine this with RAM paint and a few dozen Ph.D.'s or even advanced graduate students and you have your stealth airframe.

Whether it is any good as a fighter who knows but the US would be stupid to discount the possibility.

1. P. Ya. Ufimtsev, Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction, Soviet Radio, Moscow, 1962


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## banned

independent sources please?


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## Programmer

*To below_freezing*

Hello!

Oh yes, Iran is capable of producing AFM Microscope and recently MRI!

ECO NANO / Iran Joins 10 AFM Microscope Manufacturing Countries

However, I know that they're not comparable with Chinese achievements! But you gotta give us some credit bro! We are among the leading countries in the field of stem-cell research!  Despite all the sanctions we managed to increase our scientific output more than any country in the world! Hell... I couldn't even study in the field I wanted, I wanted biotechnology they offered me computer science!! I know we have lot to learn from China but you gotta be a bit more supportive! 

Iran showing fastest scientific growth of any country - science-in-society - 18 February 2010 - New Scientist

You are a great nation with great human resource, your people are hardworking and intelligent! You have started sooner and now you're harvesting what you have worked so hard for, I'm familiar with Chinese culture, patriotism is in your blood, throughout history you have been against great odds! You are a united people, therefore you are more focused on your goals, unfortunately My country needs better leaders in order to regain old glories!


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## 500

I would like to see Iranian 4th gen fighter first.


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## Programmer

500 said:


> I would like to see Iranian 4th gen fighter first.


 
When you lift the sanctions you gonna see them? But give us some time first!


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## SAUD-404

nomi007 said:


> Iran is working with mig on their mig1.42 project


 
Any reliable source????????


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## 500

Programmer said:


> When you lift the sanctions you gonna see them? But give us some time first!


In another words it will talke long time before we see Iranian 4th gen, if at all. Untill then I dont see a reason to discuss 5th gen.


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## Aramsogo

500 said:


> I would like to see Iranian 4th gen fighter first.


 
I would like to see Israeli 4th Gen Fighter too and it's not called the J-10.


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## flameboard

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=183991&d=1271799068






I gotta say these designs are pretty impressive.


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## Dragon Emperor

Impossible for Iran to achieve this. Even China, with aircraft technology 20-30 years ahead of Iran took more than a decade to develop the J-20 with extremely hard work, espionage and engine troubles. Even Japan, with technology and engineers that makes Iran look Stone Age in comparison has not yet flown a prototype stealth fighter, i 1000% doubt that Iran can even build a prototype, let alone fly one stealth fighter prototype for the next 10 years. Iran can't even make a fighter to match the F-15, Su-30 or J-10, let alone a 5th gen stealth fighter.

Iran should stop making BS comments if they want to be taken seriously by any adult.


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## 500

Aramsogo said:


> I would like to see Israeli 4th Gen Fighter too and it's not called the J-10.


We dont claim that we develope 5th gen.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Dragon Emperor said:


> Impossible for Iran to achieve this. Even China, with aircraft technology 20-30 years ahead of Iran took more than a decade to develop the J-20 with extremely hard work, espionage and engine troubles. Even Japan, with technology and engineers that makes Iran look Stone Age in comparison has not yet flown a prototype stealth fighter, i 1000% doubt that Iran can even build a prototype, let alone fly one stealth fighter prototype for the next 10 years. Iran can't even make a fighter to match the F-15, Su-30 or J-10, let alone a 5th gen stealth fighter.
> 
> Iran should stop making BS comments if they want to be taken seriously by any adult.


 
That's Iran's own business, no need to look them down because they haven't got any experience of building aircraft.

About 50 years ago, China was no better than today's Iran, but who can believe we can reach that far.


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## Dragon Emperor

LOL if is that so easy to make stealth fighters, then not just Iran, but more than 20 countries in the world could build them. Iran talks big but does not walk the talk.


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## manojb

Oh this is a parade float !! Some thing like this ?
http://defensetech.org/2010/04/19/iranian-s-300-sams-or-a-bunch-of-oil-drums-welded-together/ ??


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## virkjee

self delete


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## poseidon

Why do some retards come here and try criticize unless you have any useful information about this matter then why do write nonsense?


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## desiman

Black Blood said:


> *I just cannot understand why some people here are just being " Super stupid " and think that they are the best inc some Pakistanis here .
> 
> What makes a man special is not his " brain " it is " how they use it ".
> 
> If you guys are sarcastic about Iran & about their capabilities then i must say i just can condemn it . One man can change the course of history " get it in your brains first ".
> 
> I think Iranians have some sort of talent and they are as good as everyone else .
> 
> Indians should stop making fun of it because they are just too dumb to make an indigenous 4th gen Fighter for last 30 years.
> 
> Here is the source & now Stop BSing and try to conclude the debate. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> Tehran Times Political Desk*
> 
> TEHRAN -- Air Force Commander Brigadier General Ahmad Miqani said here on Monday that Iran has launched the project to manufacture stealth aircrafts.
> 
> &#8220;We have finished the design of stealth aircraft which cannot to be detected even by advanced radar systems, and the primary stages of its manufacture have started,&#8221; Miqani told reporters in a news conference.
> 
> The Iranian defense industry is also promoting the combat capabilities of Saeqeh fighter in terms of radar system, missile, military equipment and weaponry, he added.
> 
> The commander said Iranian &#8220;Air Force is prepared to confront any military strike&#8221;, warning that &#8220;any act of aggression against the country&#8217;s borders will face a crushing response.&#8221;
> 
> Miqani also rejected rumors that Iran has purchased some airplanes from Russia
> 
> Extract Link:tehran times : Iran launches project to build stealth aircraft
> 
> *God bless Iran*


 
Better learn how to talk Mr.researcher, while the words you used in regards to Indians are tolerated here, its shows how really misinformed you are. Stealth Fighters are not made overnight and Iran has always been known to boost a lot for nothing so anything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Programmer

Dragon Emperor said:


> LOL if is that so easy to make stealth fighters, then not just Iran, but more than 20 countries in the world could build them. Iran talks big but does not walk the talk.


 
OK I think My original post was harsh and inappropriate, since I have many Malay friends.

But...
Bro, I would recommend you to first look at your own country capabilities in this field, then start ridiculing others? If someone from USA would have said that I wouldn't reply like this, because they're producing cutting-edge technology. But Me and You, we should show more respect before making fun of others efforts? As a Malaysian Chinese you should follow your ancestors teaching, you must even respect your enemies.


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## BelligerentPacifist

^They have succeeded in building what the had-promised-much revolution of yours hasn't - a vibrant society which is not mutually antagonistic with the State.

Let's not jibe at each other and belittle each others' nations. Yes it is incredible enough that Iran made a stealth plane without ever making a previous-generation one before. And yes I do appreciate the fact that stealth seems like a relative term. The stealth in the Iranian program might only mean a shape more conforming to LO and some RAM. I wish you good luck with even more stealth, you might find it coming handy in near future eventualities.


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## The SC

gotowork said:


> basically, it makes no sense for iran to make a real stealth fighter, since it reqiures a lot of basic aviation experiments and experiences which iran can not posess because of their low lever technology, as far as i know, even china and russia face a lot of problems when come to the solution of the diffilculty to balnace stealth and mobility.
> it is hard to image that iran can make a real 5 generation palne even without the ability to design and manufacture jet engines.
> hence i guess iran may adopt some particular shapes to their"5 generation"plane with the help of russian or chinese and call it stealth plane



So ,what you are saying is that even Russia and China have a low level of technology than. Iran has a good or very good level of technology since they are doing all this under very restrictive sanctions that you forgot to think about when you compared.
Even China and with total liberty, and no sanctions had a hard time making its own engines, Russia and the West had a head start in WW2, but got their most sophisticated engine technologies from German scientists made prisoners of war. 
So unless you grab some Russian, European or American specialized scientists today, you have to use other means of research, design and manufacture on your own ,and I think Iran is doing just that.


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## The SC

Dazzler said:


> Ruag, i have asked many people from different countries and none of them was able to define terrorism. Please can you give an appropriate definition?
> 
> Thanks



Terrorism is to instil terror or more precisely a big fear in the heart of your opponents, your friends or your subjects to have them do what you want, it is an effective, but despicable method of manipulation and ultimately control.
In nature, every defence strategy used by animals can be called terrorism, in humans it is more complicated, it has a double face, because one can provoke and attack someone else, wait for his response, and label him as a terrorist, in reality it all depends on who controls the most media outlets in the most powerful countries, since most human beings are still very busy with the most basic needs, they will swallow the only information they have and that is the news outlets of their countries. So a lot of hands are manipulating these masses to have them believe and prepare them for sacrifice in conflicts, without ever being alert to the real situation., it is another form of terrorism used on its own people to have them do what ever the manipulators require of them.
Ounce equilibrium is reached in the media if ever, new targets will be found and the game of terrorism will continue in a perpetual motion.
Today, it is the big powerful nations that are labelling smaller nations and groups as terrorists, the same exact thing that happens in the animal kingdom, Showing once more that Humans have not evolved from the animal world, not in instinct, nor in thought.


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## The SC

below_freezing said:


> Are you seriously, seriously comparing the industrial scientific capabilities of Iran and China? I just want to ask you 1 thing:
> 
> Can iran make its own MRI machine or electron microscope? Is iran self sufficient in computer controlled milling machines and semiconductors, or even petroleum products? It is laughable to compare Iran to China. Your chemical engineering industry is so backwards it cannot even process your own oil. Come back when you've caught up to Venezuela, don't even talk about China.



No one can compare with china's almost 2 billion population and their achievements, but Iran due to circumstances are very advanced, let us say in nano technology, they also have succeeded in cold fusion reactors, apart from other very specialized fields, but China today is much more advanced in much more fields considering its wide-world access to technology and no sanctions at all. Iran is also refining petroleum now and even providing the technology to others.
In the same circumstances, I think Iran would have done even better than today. don't you think so?

I have also noticed in your other posts, your total lack of knowledge about Iran's capabilities, by saying that it will take the US one month to win a war against Iran, that is your own opinion, I will hold to the American generals and admirals opinion that a war with Iran is totally infeasible for the US.
If you look at Afghanistan , you 'll see that the US used all its might to win but a very temporary war until the next day where Taliban or Afghani fighters attacked again and again and again armed only with kalashnikovs and at best some RPGs.
Iranians can fight a war with much, much, much... sophisticated weapons and soldiers in their cities as well as in their mountains, with at least 20 million soldiers armed and trained in modern as well as urban and guerrillas warfare. 
This was for land invasion like in Iraq or Afghanistan. When it comes to an air campaign, the USrael will not be able to sustain a long attack without unacceptable losses by the well integrated Iranian air shield, the most recent news is the upgrade and mass production of the mobile highly efficient and estimated S-200 system, most feared by NATO for decades and on which the S-300-400-500 are based, while the Bavar-373 is due in 2014, plus the S-300V that has been offered recently to replace the S-300 PMU2 Deal, in medium and low altitude ranges Iranians have mass produced their own versions of the notorious Buk air defence system as well as the Tor and the Pantsir systems ad to this tens of thousands of Flak and it shows how dangerous is the Iranian airspace for an attacker. 
Navy-wise they have mass produced thousands of very accurate and powerfull cruise missiles as well as anti-ship missiles, submarines and sophisticated torpedoes and warships able to inflict very heavy and unsustainable losses to anyone in the Persian gulf, these are the facts, your opinion is yours to keep if you like.
As of today Iran is indeed a very powerful nation in its own right defence-wise.

For an Iranian stealth fighter, one should think in perspective, So I think that Iran is capable of producing a light weight fighter with stealth technology, because they master nano technologies now and can produce Carbon based materials as strong as steal for the airframe, with weapon bays, advanced avionics and other sophisticated materials like the electro-ionic ones and systems, all they need now is some small AESA radar to equip them with if need be, and a potent engine that they certainly have, let us say a copy and improved F-14 or Mig-29 engine, the engine outlet is covered on all sides with with some heat resistant Carbon-like material like shown on the Qaher-313. The body of the plane will shield all the electronic emissions from radars.
One has to keep in mind the purpose of the fighter jet, in this case it is to defend Iran's airspace, and to be able to take off and land rapidly from any kind of airfield, unlike the American, Russian, and Maybe the Chinese Stealth fighters, to be used on 6 or 7 thousand kilometres for defence and maybe 10s of thousands of kilometres for offence, and most importantly to be sold to cover some of the humongous amounts of money injected in these projects, the Iranian project is in proportion to Iran's needs and is based on available technologies, and making the best that can be made of them. 
A sophisticated small fighter jet in the size of the notorious and famous F-5 tiger is already difficult to detect, if you add to it stealth technology as Iran did, one can produce a very potent stealth fighting air force, surprising and deterring enough to enemies, that they won't dare to attack it without thinking tenfold about their potential heavy losses, if one can not see a fighter airplane or until it is too late than it is very dangerous indeed. isn't that the aim of the F-22-35?


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## KRAIT

The SC said:


> No one can compare with china's almost 2 billion population and their achievements, but Iran due to circumstances are very advanced, let us say in nano technology, they also have succeeded in cold fusion reactors, apart from other very specialized fields, but China today is much more advanced in much more fields considering its wide-world access to technology and no sanctions at all. Iran is also refining petroleum now and even providing the technology to others.
> In the same circumstances, I think Iran would have done even better than today. don't you think so?


China's population is 1.3 billion, not almost 2 billion. 

And yes China has improved by leaps and bounds in every field.


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## acid rain

Going by the Parsi community in India and howw they are the most accomplished community here, I wouldnt doubt Iran's abilities and intellligence easily.

Parsis in India have topped most fields including research, medicine, business, education etc. I would expect the same level of intelligence and sophistication from their brethren in Iran.


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## applesauce

The SC said:


> but China today is much more advanced in much more fields considering its wide-world access to technology and no sanctions at all.



this is incorrect, china has many sanctions on it, nearly all military hardware from the west is not available, leaving it with russia and civilian duel use tech as the only source of foreign hardware and know-how. however even there most high tech civilian good are barred from being exported to china precisely because of their duel use nature, for instance satellites with US components(even if its a bolt) are banned from being launched on a chinese rocket, if fact nasa is basically banned from collaborating with china. mean while russia has fewer and fewer things to offer china and their high tech products in generally are not as advanced as the US and some thing that they are good at, the russian are not interested in exporting to china.

that said, sanctions on Iran are far tougher than the sanctions on china, and iran does not command the national power and resources available to china that allows it to bend the rule when it comes to sanctions(gaining access illegally, being able to import duel use despite sanctions, demanding foreign company give over know-how in return for market access etc.)


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## The SC

applesauce said:


> this is incorrect, china has many sanctions on it, nearly all military hardware from the west is not available, leaving it with russia and civilian duel use tech as the only source of foreign hardware and know-how. however even there most high tech civilian good are barred from being exported to china precisely because of their duel use nature, for instance satellites with US components(even if its a bolt) are banned from being launched on a chinese rocket, if fact nasa is basically banned from collaborating with china. mean while russia has fewer and fewer things to offer china and their high tech products in generally are not as advanced as the US and some thing that they are good at, the russian are not interested in exporting to china.
> 
> that said, sanctions on Iran are far tougher than the sanctions on china, and iran does not command the national power and resources available to china that allows it to bend the rule when it comes to sanctions(gaining access illegally, being able to import duel use despite sanctions, demanding foreign company give over know-how in return for market access etc.)



I agree with you on most parts of what you are saying, but those are not official sanctions, those are restrictions on the most advanced technologies in the western world applied to most of the world, not only China, but to no avail at least for the Chinese case, There are just too many Chinese scientists living, working and even teaching and doing R&D at University level in the west and too many western and eastern sympathizers for China. So the west can not hide much from you guys, only some highly classified military tech, but with the advent of highly advanced hacking technologies, even that is available to China and others now a days, it is just making the west go crazy and take its frustrations on Iran for instance, but even that is not working much. So the west starts hacking back its technologies hoping to save face at least in the hackers world. what a crazy world...


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