# Malaysia to train Saudi navy to operate submarines



## The SC

*2 Mar 2017*

The understanding to train the navy comes as Saudi Arabia prepares to receive its first submarine fleet.







SEPANG: Malaysia is studying details of its military cooperation with Saudi Arabia in various aspects, including the possibility of training the navy personnel of the Gulf country in skills to operate submarines.

Defence Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said this was among matters discussed with the Saudi Arabian delegation in their meeting on the sidelines of the four-day visit of Saudi Arabia’s King Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, which ended today.

“The understanding to train the Saudi Arabian navy is due to the country’s preparations to receive its first submarine fleet,” he said.

He told reporters this after sending off King Salman, together with Prime Minister Najib Razak and Foreign Minister Anifah Aman at Bunga Raya Complex, KL International Airport, here today.


Hishammuddin, who was the minister-in-attendance during the visit of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, said he himself had reviewed the cooperation and the Malaysian chief of Navy was handling the details.

“They do not have any submarine fleet and in their planning may want to expand the submarine classes there.

“But while waiting for the submarines for Saudi Arabia, we (Malaysia) probably can ensure training for their navy personnel,” he said.

Malaysia has a submarine training and submarine simulation centre in Sepanggar, Sabah.

Hishammuddin was also looking at the possibility of purchasing and financing a fighter aircraft and helicopter from Saudi Arabia’s surplus assets.

The details of the cooperation between the two countries would be further discussed with Saudi Arabian Defence Minister Prince Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud, who is also the Deputy Crown Prince, he added.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/content/malaysia-may-train-saudis-submarine-operations

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## The SC

*Sepanggar Submarine Training Centre one of world’s best*
May 13, 2015, Wednesday Elton Gomes


KOTA KINABALU: The Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) Submarine Training Centre (STC) at the Sepanggar Navy base is one of the best Scorpene submarine training centres in the world.

RMN chief Admiral Tan Sri Abdul Aziz Jaafar said the Submarine Training Centre here has the capability to provide basic training right up to the highest level of submarine expertise.

“This shows that locals can now master the art of underwater warfare which involves modern technology,” he said after presenting “Dolphin” badges to 30 locally trained submariners.

Abdul Aziz said that the STC is now equipped with two simulators, namely, SIMDIVE (Diving Simulator) and SIMTAC (Tactical Simulator).

“It is also equipped with a Safety Conditioning Facilities (SCF) building, which has a submarine escape training tower as well as two simulators to prepare submariners for any eventuality in case of fire or flooding.

“By providing such facilities, the highest command of the RMN had shown its commitment to make our submarine force ‘world class’,” he said, adding that local submariners have been trained since 2010.

Abdul Aziz also said that by being able to train submariners locally, it would reduce the burden on the government to provide funds.

“It costs one million Euros per submariner if they were trained abroad, but if we train them locally, we can save at least 50 percent the cost,” he said, adding that previously, submariners were trained in Turkey, Pakistan, Australia, Sweden and Germany, while intensive training was conducted in France.

He said that submarine training is divided into few stages, namely, an academic course, submarine foundation course, a simulation course and an on-the-job (OTJ) training, where the entire training duration would be about two years.

“It is also better for us to train submariners locally because they will be trained directly for the Scorpene submarine,” he said.

Abdul Aziz thanked the French Navy and NAVFCO, the naval branch of the Defense Conseil International, for training its submariners prior to the existence of local training.

“The benchmark on the capability of our submarine force is based on the French Navy. In order to be qualified as submariners, they need to have logged at least 1,000 hours in a submarine, and this certainly dispels rumours that our submarine cannot dive.

“If it cannot dive, then it is impossible for our submariners to have clocked in 1,000 hours of voyage,” he said.

He also said that the RMN had received requests from navies of neighboring countries in the region to have their men trained as submariners by the RMN STC.

“All I can say is that, at the moment, we want to focus on training our own submariners first. However, the fact that we received such requests is a recognition of our submarine training capability,” he said.

Abdul Aziz said that each submarine requires one and a half crew strength to operate it.

“One crew strength is equivalent to 35 men. We have two submarines, therefore we need three crews to operate both submarines. Currently, we have about 156 submariners, and we are quite comfortable with the numbers, but we hope to have five crews for our submarine force,” Abdul Aziz said, adding that the force needs to always have backup because if one of the crew is unable to man the submarine, they need to have a replacement to execute the role that was left vacant.

“Everyone has their role and must be present on board for the submarine to operate,” he added.

Abdul Aziz said that since January 1, the government had improved the incentive for submarine service by increasing its rate from 35 to 40 percent.

“The incentive also includes the introduction of a sailing allowance. This means that submariners are entitled to an allowance for each voyage they chart,” he added.

He said the improvement of the incentive would attract more personnel to become a submariner, in addition to encouraging current submariners to retain their professional skills as submariners.

“The new incentive structure also provides a better description of the risks faced by submariners in operating a submarine and by providing a better incentive, it shows the government’s appreciation of submariners of the RMN,” he added.

Also present during the ceremony were RMN Armada chief Vice Admiral Dato’ Mohamad Roslan Mohamad Ramli, Submarine Force Commander Rear Admiral Abdul Rahman Ayob, Deputy Submarine Force Commander, First Admiral Zulhelmy Ithnain and senior RMN officers.

http://www.theborneopost.com/2015/05/13/sepanggar-submarine-training-centre-one-of-worlds-best/

Is this an indication that KSA is going for the Scorpene Submarines or maybe another French custom made submarine!?

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## HAIDER

KSA better buy midget class and ask Isreal to modify . Isreali are master in making shallow water subs.


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## The SC

HAIDER said:


> KSA better buy midget class and ask Isreal to modify . Isreali are master in making shallow water subs.







KSA needs both midget and 1400 t subs, midget for the Persian Gulf and regular ones for the Red Sea..

*Small submarine KSS 500A (South Korea)*
At the meeting in Busan Maritime Achievement Exhibition «Marine Week 2011", the South Korean unit of UK MoD «Agency for Defence Development» model showed a small submarine project «KSS 500A». *Submarine* intended to change the line of duty submarines state project «KSS-1" with a displacement of 250 tons. At the moment, South Korea to build two submarines type «Dolgorae», had risen in the UK commissioned the Navy in the early 80-ies of the last century. Work on the creation of MPL «KSS 500A» conducted since 2008. Now division «ADD» selects the probable manufacturers (suppliers) to be the main issue of the submarine. Until now, the fate of the upcoming submarine KSS 500A hitherto not been determined. The required funds for implementation of the project in the metal so far not identified.




* Key Features: [/ b]
— displacement — 510 tons;
— length of 37 meters;
— width — 4.5 m;
— maximum depth — 250 meters;
— max speed / economy — 20/7 knots;
— while the autonomous sailing — 3 weeks;
— range of up to 2 thousand miles.
— crew min / max people -5/10
— landing capacity — 14 people.

Of the claimed features of the project MPL note the lack of electronic on-board generator to recharge the BATT. «KSS 500A» Go for surface movement traffic RDP uses the diesel engine is run for underwater movement uses the built-in electronic engine, which is aligned with the propeller and used to power 2 power lithium-ion BATTERY (charging takes place at the home base).





[/ B] The main sturdy thick-walled enclosure is divided into the 4th compartment: [/ b]
— living compartment (the nose of the body);
— compartment of the control room;
— engine compartment;
— spetsnagruzki compartment (aft part of the body).

In the stern of a modular camera «Flexible Payload Module» to enter the job frogmen and for the introduction of underwater vehicles. In the fore part is a sonar system with a large antenna of the nose and 6 -2 TA TA 533 mm and 4 TA-caliber 324 mm. Under this project, it is possible to accommodate 2 modules with vertical placement of RCC or minutes. 5 retractable lifting masts reserved fencing arrangements.

 PS [/ b] Project «KSS 500A» rooted in the seized from the DPRK submarine reconnaissance number one, who has suffered a tragedy at the time. MPL South Korean project — is a large-scale version of the captured boat, which won the TA. In similar submarines the DPRK, battle modification of TA are standard weapons. The appearance of «KSS 500A» — a copy of the submarine project 214. Although stated that the submarine small displacement, 510 tons refer it to the middle class. Of TTX is clear that the main purpose submarines — perform various tasks in the territorial waters of the DPRK. A generator Submarine has not been effective because of the anti-submarine defense of the DPRK and the time to recharge them at will. Installed batteries charge a day or 1-2, which in the submarine force in specific tasks is not there. It turns out that this Submarine — An electronic torpedo bombers with the crew with the possibility of surface speed. Shallow depth of 250 meters — it's likely all that can give metallurgical factory, which obviously is not enough production technologies.





Issued submarine speed of 20 knots, points to the possibility of planning the use of MPL «KSS 500A» capture (capture) submarines DPRK. Used batteries are not admitted to the technical level of the discharge of more than 60 percent of capacity. This immediately reduces the range of the 2000 to 1200 miles. In addition, in those waters, where they plan to use the subs are strong undercurrents of overcoming them will claim an engine / motor at a high speed that hi to more Hassle-flow capacity of the battery. Time autonomously immediately fall by more than two thirds, and it turns out that to perform battle puzzles in the submarine «KSS 500A» is little more than a week.

Torpedoes small caliber — own production, and 533 mm for the German torpedo «SUT». Use a U-boat submarines against North Korea is not the best idea. After all, even the first torpedo used by Korean submarines, torpedoes superior South Korean production. Only two German torpedoes something else can. In reality it turns out that «KSS 500A» martial traits is in line with the DPRK submarine «Sang-O». And they are a lot cheaper and are real boats of small displacement (256 tons). And the introduction of high-BATTERY exceptionally well in the case of performing the tasks of sabotage, because in any case after a military clash submarine will pursue, and she very quickly use up the battery capacity and remains vulnerable — either have to leave the boat and drown, or it will be captured. Even if the submarine will leave you absolutely have to replace the battery, making the submarine more more expensive to use. And the fact that designers do not set the generator on it. And if it is all the same to install, during the charging time (day or 1-2), it will be very vulnerable. Diesel engine mounted in a single execution will not pull and work and exercises. You can go for the installation of the shaft generator, but it will lead to a drop in speed and increase fuel consumption, not to mention the fact that the shaft generator is quite large and will have to significantly alter the project.

http://survincity.com/2012/12/small-submarine-kss-500a-south-korea/



SS-209 Changbogo Class Submarines








The Changbogo class submarines are Diesel/Electric propulsion submarines, built under license in South Korea, based on German Type 209-1200. ROKS Changbogo(SS-61), the first ship of this class, was launched on June 1992 by HDW at Kiel in Germany and commissioned on June 1993. The remainder were assembled at Okpo by DAEWOO from material packages transported from Germany. The second and subsequent boats were built by Daewoo Heavy Industries Co. at Koje island, South Korea. ROKS Leesunsin (SS-68), the 7th ship launched on 21 May 1998.

Specifications :

*


*

Length : 56 m (187.5 ft)

Beam : 6.25 m (20.5 ft)

Draft : 5.5 m (18 ft)

Propulsion : Diesel/Electric

Speed : 21.5 knots, Maximum – submerged 11 knots, Maximum – surfaced

Range : 7500 miles (8 knots, snorkel) 370 miles (submerged)

Displacement : 1100 tons surfaced. 1285 tons surmerged

Crew : 30 (6 officers)

Torpedo : 14 STN SUT mod 2 or LG Whiteshark 8 533mm/21inch Torpedo tubes

Mines : 28 mines (instead of torpedo)

Missile : SUB-Harpoon

Countermeasures ESM : Argo

Sonars : Atlas Elecktronik CSU 83

Weapon control : Atlas Elecktronik ISUS 83 TFCS

Radars Navigation : I-Band
*
*https://knowledgsearch.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/ss-209-changbogo-class-submarines/*

*SSK Andrasta Littoral Submarine, France*




The 19-crew, 855t displacement, Andrasta submarine, announced by DCNS in September 2008, has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters, but remains a formidable adversary in blue (deep) water environments.

The submarine is named after Andrasta, the Celtic goddess of war whose name means victorious or invincible. The prime contractor, DCNS, considers that the Andrasta has no equivalent for littoral missions in terms of manoeuvrability and stealth.

*Andrasta submarine design*
The submarine design draws heavily on the proven configuration and systems adopted for the Scorpene family and has about 70% commonality with the Scorpene. The Andrasta surfaced displacement is 855t compared to the 1,790t to 2,010t displacement of the Scorpene. The submarine incorporates the same level of safety, stealth signatures and systems integration as the Scorpene.

"The SSK Andrasta submarine has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters."
The Andrasta can lurk on the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 100m. At a speed of 4kt the range is more than 3,000nm and more than 1,800nm at 8kt.

Andrasta is being presented to world markets at about half the cost of attack submarines such as the Scorpene. The Andrasta design can incorporate extra performance options which are not mandatory for littoral missions but which customer countries may require, without degrading the submarine’s efficiency.

For specials operations, the Andrasta has a deployment airlock for combat swimmers, electronic warfare and intelligence gathering systems.

*Andrasta missions*
The submarine missions cover anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other ships or maritime assets. The Andrasta is equipped to communicate easily with other assets and command centres.

*Hull design*
The double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics. An X-configuration rudder has independently operated surfaces for a high level of manoeuvrability including a small turning radius.

The small hull helps contribute to the submarine's stealth characteristics. The submarine has a diving depth to 200m and a submerged endurance of five days. It also has a very low acoustic and visual signature.

*Command and control*
The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy

The combat management system is integrated with the sonar and other sensors (optical, optronic, electronic support measures, radar) and carries out the location and identification of vessels, target tracking, tactical analysis, decision making, action management, exchange of tactical data via datalinks, the control of weapons systems and engagement of targets.

"Andrasta's double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics."
The submarine is equipped with high-precision navigation and surveillance systems for operation in littoral waters. Surveillance missions can be successfully carried out while the submarine is at rest on the seabed.

*Weapons*
The Andrasta can accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes such as the Black Shark, anti-ship missiles such as the Exocet SM-39 and a mine-laying system. The torpedoes and missiles are stored and carried in the six forward torpedo tubes. The small hull size of the submarine does not accommodate torpedoes and missiles for reload.

*Special forces*
The Andrasta submarines, which can carry two passengers plus a team of six divers, can be deployed for special forces missions which gives the Andrasta an enhanced attack capability comparable to larger submarines. The submarine is fitted with a lock-out / lock-in chamber for combat swimmers.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/andrasta-submarine/



*SSK Scorpene Class Attack Submarine, France*




The Scorpene submarine has been jointly developed by DCNS of France (formerly DCN) and Navantia (formerly Bazan, then Izar) of Spain. Two Scorpene submarines were ordered by Chile. The vessels replace two Oberon Class submarines which were retired in 1998 and 2003.

The first, O'Higgins, was built at DCN shipyard in Cherbourg, launched in November 2003, and commissioned in September 2005. It arrived in Chile in January 2006. The second, Carrera, built at the Navantia shipyard in Cartagena, Spain, was launched in November 2004 and commissioned in July 2006. Carrera arrived at its homeport of Talcahuano in December 2006.

*Chilean Navy Scorpene submarines*
The 1,500t Scorpene built for the Chilean Navy has a length of 66.4m. The two vessels are powered by four diesel generators providing more than 2,500kW using GM synchronous motors with permanent magnets.

The Chilean Scorpene has a hull-mounted medium-frequency active / passive sonar. The vessels are armed with WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes.

The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo, which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head, and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery. Black Shark also arms the two Scorpene vessels for the Royal Malaysian Navy.

The six torpedo tubes are capable of firing SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, which have a range of 50km, but they are not initially carried. The vessels are equipped with EDO Reconnaissance Systems AR-900 electronic support measures/direction-finding (ESM/DF) system.

*Malaysian Navy Scorpene attack submarines*
The Royal Malaysian Navy placed a contract for two Scorpene submarines in June 2002. The first vessel, KD Tunku Abdul Rahman, was launched at DCNS Cherbourg in October 2007. It was handed over in January 2009 in Toulon and arrrived in Malaysia in September 2009.

The second, Tun Razak, was launched at Navantia Cartagena in October 2008 and commissioned in 2009. DCNS built the bow sections, Navantia the aft sections.

*Indian Navy Scorpene attack submarines*
"The SSK Scorpene attack submarine is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability."
In October 2005, India placed an order for six Scorpene submarines. The submarines are being built at the state-owned Mazagon dockyard in Bombay, with technical assistance and equipment from French companies DCN and Thales.

At the same time, India also placed an order for 36 MBDA SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles to arm the submarines.

Construction of the first vessel, INS Kalvari, began in December 2006 and is scheduled to be delivered by March 2017. The second submarine in class, INS Khanderi, was launched in January 2017. The total cost of the submarines is estimated to be Rs235.6bn ($3.75bn).

*Brazilian Navy Scorpene attack submarines*
In December 2008, Brazil placed an order for four diesel-electric-powered submarines based on the Scorpene.

The submarines are being built by a joint venture company set up by DCNS and Odebrecht of Brazil and the first submarine is expected to enter service in 2017. The construction of the submarines started in July 2011.

*Weapon systems*
The Scorpene attack submarine can carry 18 torpedoes and missiles or 30 mines. It is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability. Positive discharge launching is by an air turbine pump.

"Handling and loading of weapons is automated."
The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles. The handling and loading of weapons is automated.

*SUBTICS combat management system*
The SUBTICS combat management system, with up to six multifunction common consoles and a centrally situated tactical table, is collocated with the platform-control facilities.

The combat management system is composed of a command and tactical data handling system, a weapon control system and an integrated suite of acoustic sensors with an interface to a set of air surface detection sensors and to the integrated navigation system. The system can also download data from external sources.

The integrated navigation system combines data from global positioning systems, the log, depth measurement and the ship's trim / list monitoring system. The Scorpene monitors the environment including seawater density and temperature and the submarine's own noise signature.

*Sonar suite*
The vessel's sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array.

*Control and monitoring*
All submarine handling operations are carried out from the control room. The vessel features a high level of automation and surveillance, with automatic control mode of rudders and propulsion, continuous monitoring of the propulsion systems and platform installations, centralised and continuous surveillance of all potential hazards (leaks, fires, presence of gases) and the status of the installations that affect the safety while submerged.

*Construction*
"The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles."
The submarine incorporates a high level of system redundancy to achieve an average 240 days at sea a year for each submarine. The maximum diving depth is 300m, giving the commander more tactical freedom than previously available on conventional submarines. There is no limit to the duration of dives at a maximum depth, other than the power systems and crew limitations.

The structure of the submarine uses high-yield stress-specific steel, enabling dives to maximum depths when necessary.

Incorporating high-tensile steels has reduced the weight of the pressure hull, allowing a larger load of fuel and ammunition. The reduced complement minimises training costs and increase combat efficiency by making more space, while a larger payload enhances the ship's autonomy.

When dived, the Scorpene has low radiated noise that permits improved detection ranges of its own sensors and reduced risk of detection by hostile sensors. The low radiated noise is achieved through the use of advanced hydrodynamics with an albacore bow shape, with fewer appendages and an optimised propeller.

Between the suspended decks, the equipment is mounted on elastic mountings wherever possible, and the noisiest systems have a double-elastic mounting to reduce the risk of their noise profiles being radiated outside the submarine. The shock-resistant systems have been developed from systems incorporated in advanced nuclear-powered submarine designs.

The low-acoustic signature and hydrodynamic shock-resistance give the Scorpene class the capability to carry out anti-submarine and anti-surface ship warfare operations in closed or open sea conditions, as well as the capability of working with special forces in coastal waters.

*Crew facilities*
The ship can hold a total company of 31 men with a standard watch team of nine. The control room and the living quarters are mounted on an elastically supported and acoustically isolated floating platform. All living and operational areas are air-conditioned. The submarine also has space for six additional fold-down bunks for special operations crew.

"The ship can hold a total company of 31 men with a standard watch team of nine."
The vessel is equipped with all the necessary systems to provide vital supplies, water, provisions, regeneration of the atmosphere, to ensure the survival of all crew for seven days.

The ship is equipped with full rescue and safety systems.

A connection point for a diving bell or deep submergence rescue vehicle (DSRV) allows collective rescue operations.

*Stealth design*
The planning and design of the Scorpene was directed towards achieving an extremely quiet vessel with a great detection capability and offensive power.

The forms of the hull, the sail and the appendages have been specifically designed to produce minimum hydrodynamic noise. The various items of equipment are mounted on elastic supports, which are in turn mounted on uncoupled blocks and suspended platforms. The isolation also provides better shock protection to the equipment.

*Propulsion systems*
The Scorpene has two diesel generation sets providing 1,250kW of power. At the top of the hull immediately above the diesel generator sets is a Dutch Breach machinery shipping hatch. The submarine has an elastically supported 2,900kW electronic engine.

There are two variants of Scorpene, the CM-2000 with the conventional propulsion system and the AM-2000 equipped with air independent propulsion. The AM-2000 is capable of remaining submerged on underwater patrol for three times longer than the CM-2000.

*Air independent propulsion*
A conventional diesel-electrical submarine sailing underwater is difficult to detect. However the need to come repeatedly to periscope depth to recharge the batteries using the diesel engine greatly increases vulnerability by:


Its aerial detectability, since the snorkel projecting from the water is detectable by radar
Its underwater detectability due to increase in radiated noise from the working diesels
The ratio between this time of greater vulnerability and the total operating time is known as the 'indiscretion rate' and for all conventional modem submarines the indiscretion ratio ranges typically from 7% to 10% on patrol at 4kt, and 20% to 30% in transit at 8kt.

"To lessen the submarine's vulnerability, Scorpene can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system."
To lessen the submarine's vulnerability, the vessel can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system such as: the Stirling engine, the fuel cell, the closed circuit diesel and the module d'energie sous-marine autonome (MESMA) system .

The MESMA anaerobic system, in which heat in the primary circuit is produced by burning ethanol with oxygen, can be easily installed either at the start of the submarine's construction or in a later modernisation to convert the CM-2000 to an AM-2000 build standard.

With the MESMA system the AM-2000 submarine can stay down on underwater patrol three times longer than the CM-2000.

Its performance features remain the same in all other respects, except that the length increases to 70m and its submerged displacement to 1.870t (against the 61.7m and the 1,565t of the CM2000).

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene

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## The SC

@HAIDER

Usrael buys submarines from Germany..how come you want to ask them for tech? or was that post some kind of sarcasm..

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## S.Y.A

The SC said:


> They do not have any submarine fleet and in their planning may want to expand the submarine classes there.


it is weird, why did they not have any submarines till now?


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## The SC

S.Y.A said:


> it is weird, why did they not have any submarines till now?


KSA wanted to order German Subs, but Germany refused the order..and it was for 5 type 209 with a possibility of 20 more.. reason: Human rights!

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## S.Y.A

The SC said:


> KSA wanted to order German Subs, but Germany refused the order..and it was for 5 type 209 with a possibility of 20 more.. reason: Human rights!


no, I mean why did they not buy submarines in the 80's or 90's? why now?


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## Saif al-Arab

S.Y.A said:


> no, I mean why did not buy submarines in the 80's or 90's? why now?



KSA's military budget was not as big, the threats were different, the military priorities were different and KSA was not as militarized in general.

Today the most important and pressing need is the improvement and "modernization" of KSA's navy. Aside from the establishment (an ongoing process) of an indigenous arms industry which as per the Saudi Vision 2030, will compromise 50% of all arms procurements by 2030. Thus such news is not surprising.

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## Zarvan

Saudi Arabia should increase its Navy and try to go and operate in deep waters



Saif al-Arab said:


> KSA's military budget was not as big, the threats were different, the military priorities were different and KSA was not as militarized in general.
> 
> Today the most important and pressing need is the improvement and "modernization" of KSA's navy. Aside from the establishment (an ongoing process) of an indigenous arms industry which as per the Saudi Vision 2030, will compromise 50% of all arms procurements by 2030. Thus such news is not surprising.


Any plans to induct big Destroyers ???


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## muhammadali233

Saif al-Arab said:


> KSA's military budget was not as big, the threats were different, the military priorities were different and KSA was not as militarized in general.
> 
> Today the most important and pressing need is the improvement and "modernization" of KSA's navy. Aside from the establishment (an ongoing process) of an indigenous arms industry which as per the Saudi Vision 2030, will compromise 50% of all arms procurements by 2030. Thus such news is not surprising.


the main question is why get training from malaysia ?they got their experience what 6 years back?Pakistan is operating subs for the past like 5 decades?Or get training from turkey which has been operating subs since ottomon empire.
Turkey or Pakistan would have been the best options to get training from.
Asking malaysia for training would be the same as getting training from Bangladesh,zero experience.


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## comrade uraa

what are those submarines going to be for?


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## S.Y.A

comrade uraa said:


> what are those submarines going to be for?


Iran


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## Talwar e Pakistan

muhammadali233 said:


> the main question is why get training from malaysia ?they got their experience what 6 years back?Pakistan is operating subs for the past like 5 decades?Or get training from turkey which has been operating subs since ottomon empire.
> Turkey or Pakistan would have been the best options to get training from.
> Asking malaysia for training would be the same as getting training from Bangladesh,zero experience.


That's quite wrong, Malaysian navy is very experienced and trained.


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## imadul

If true KSA diversifying their military training needs besides Pakistan.

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## muhammadali233

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> That's quite wrong, Malaysian navy is very experienced and trained.


not in subs,not more than turkey or pak.
Egypt,malaysia and bangladesh are noobs in this matter.


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## theman111

i didnt knew malesia is expert in operate submerines


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## Nakash Ahsan

Pakistan ko juhlaa mil sakta


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## New World

theman111 said:


> i didnt knew malesia is expert in operate submerines


we also are unaware of that fact that we read here..


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## Chhatrapati

New World said:


> we also are unaware of that fact that we read here..


They do operate two subs. May be Malaysians offered it. KSA accepted.


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## MICA

muhammadali233 said:


> not in subs,not more than turkey or pak.
> Egypt,malaysia and bangladesh are noobs in this matter.



Egypt operate submarines probably before your father was born so I don't think we are considered as "noobs" in operating subs

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## The SC

muhammadali233 said:


> the main question is why get training from malaysia ?they got their experience what 6 years back?Pakistan is operating subs for the past like 5 decades?Or get training from turkey which has been operating subs since ottomon empire.
> Turkey or Pakistan would have been the best options to get training from.
> Asking malaysia for training would be the same as getting training from Bangladesh,zero experience.


Read post # 2, that is why, and it indicates that KSA might be going for French subs..Turkey operates German Subs and Pakistan operates pre Scorpene subs, the facilities in Malaysia are the most modern and specific to the Scorpene..



comrade uraa said:


> what are those submarines going to be for?


What are all the submarines in the world for?

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## New World

SOUTHie said:


> They do operate two subs. May be Malaysians offered it. KSA accepted.


they operate in friendly environment, they dont have any sworn enemy..
they have scorpion sub, and saudi might be interested in buying that sub..



The SC said:


> KSA needs both midget and 1400 t subs, midget for the Persian Gulf and regular ones for the Red Sea..
> 
> *Small submarine KSS 500A (South Korea)*
> At the meeting in Busan Maritime Achievement Exhibition «Marine Week 2011", the South Korean unit of UK MoD «Agency for Defence Development» model showed a small submarine project «KSS 500A». *Submarine* intended to change the line of duty submarines state project «KSS-1" with a displacement of 250 tons. At the moment, South Korea to build two submarines type «Dolgorae», had risen in the UK commissioned the Navy in the early 80-ies of the last century. Work on the creation of MPL «KSS 500A» conducted since 2008. Now division «ADD» selects the probable manufacturers (suppliers) to be the main issue of the submarine. Until now, the fate of the upcoming submarine KSS 500A hitherto not been determined. The required funds for implementation of the project in the metal so far not identified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Key Features: [/ b]
> — displacement — 510 tons;
> — length of 37 meters;
> — width — 4.5 m;
> — maximum depth — 250 meters;
> — max speed / economy — 20/7 knots;
> — while the autonomous sailing — 3 weeks;
> — range of up to 2 thousand miles.
> — crew min / max people -5/10
> — landing capacity — 14 people.
> 
> Of the claimed features of the project MPL note the lack of electronic on-board generator to recharge the BATT. «KSS 500A» Go for surface movement traffic RDP uses the diesel engine is run for underwater movement uses the built-in electronic engine, which is aligned with the propeller and used to power 2 power lithium-ion BATTERY (charging takes place at the home base).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/ B] The main sturdy thick-walled enclosure is divided into the 4th compartment: [/ b]
> — living compartment (the nose of the body);
> — compartment of the control room;
> — engine compartment;
> — spetsnagruzki compartment (aft part of the body).
> 
> In the stern of a modular camera «Flexible Payload Module» to enter the job frogmen and for the introduction of underwater vehicles. In the fore part is a sonar system with a large antenna of the nose and 6 -2 TA TA 533 mm and 4 TA-caliber 324 mm. Under this project, it is possible to accommodate 2 modules with vertical placement of RCC or minutes. 5 retractable lifting masts reserved fencing arrangements.
> 
> PS [/ b] Project «KSS 500A» rooted in the seized from the DPRK submarine reconnaissance number one, who has suffered a tragedy at the time. MPL South Korean project — is a large-scale version of the captured boat, which won the TA. In similar submarines the DPRK, battle modification of TA are standard weapons. The appearance of «KSS 500A» — a copy of the submarine project 214. Although stated that the submarine small displacement, 510 tons refer it to the middle class. Of TTX is clear that the main purpose submarines — perform various tasks in the territorial waters of the DPRK. A generator Submarine has not been effective because of the anti-submarine defense of the DPRK and the time to recharge them at will. Installed batteries charge a day or 1-2, which in the submarine force in specific tasks is not there. It turns out that this Submarine — An electronic torpedo bombers with the crew with the possibility of surface speed. Shallow depth of 250 meters — it's likely all that can give metallurgical factory, which obviously is not enough production technologies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Issued submarine speed of 20 knots, points to the possibility of planning the use of MPL «KSS 500A» capture (capture) submarines DPRK. Used batteries are not admitted to the technical level of the discharge of more than 60 percent of capacity. This immediately reduces the range of the 2000 to 1200 miles. In addition, in those waters, where they plan to use the subs are strong undercurrents of overcoming them will claim an engine / motor at a high speed that hi to more Hassle-flow capacity of the battery. Time autonomously immediately fall by more than two thirds, and it turns out that to perform battle puzzles in the submarine «KSS 500A» is little more than a week.
> 
> Torpedoes small caliber — own production, and 533 mm for the German torpedo «SUT». Use a U-boat submarines against North Korea is not the best idea. After all, even the first torpedo used by Korean submarines, torpedoes superior South Korean production. Only two German torpedoes something else can. In reality it turns out that «KSS 500A» martial traits is in line with the DPRK submarine «Sang-O». And they are a lot cheaper and are real boats of small displacement (256 tons). And the introduction of high-BATTERY exceptionally well in the case of performing the tasks of sabotage, because in any case after a military clash submarine will pursue, and she very quickly use up the battery capacity and remains vulnerable — either have to leave the boat and drown, or it will be captured. Even if the submarine will leave you absolutely have to replace the battery, making the submarine more more expensive to use. And the fact that designers do not set the generator on it. And if it is all the same to install, during the charging time (day or 1-2), it will be very vulnerable. Diesel engine mounted in a single execution will not pull and work and exercises. You can go for the installation of the shaft generator, but it will lead to a drop in speed and increase fuel consumption, not to mention the fact that the shaft generator is quite large and will have to significantly alter the project.
> 
> http://survincity.com/2012/12/small-submarine-kss-500a-south-korea/
> 
> 
> 
> SS-209 Changbogo Class Submarines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Changbogo class submarines are Diesel/Electric propulsion submarines, built under license in South Korea, based on German Type 209-1200. ROKS Changbogo(SS-61), the first ship of this class, was launched on June 1992 by HDW at Kiel in Germany and commissioned on June 1993. The remainder were assembled at Okpo by DAEWOO from material packages transported from Germany. The second and subsequent boats were built by Daewoo Heavy Industries Co. at Koje island, South Korea. ROKS Leesunsin (SS-68), the 7th ship launched on 21 May 1998.
> 
> Specifications :
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Length : 56 m (187.5 ft)
> 
> Beam : 6.25 m (20.5 ft)
> 
> Draft : 5.5 m (18 ft)
> 
> Propulsion : Diesel/Electric
> 
> Speed : 21.5 knots, Maximum – submerged 11 knots, Maximum – surfaced
> 
> Range : 7500 miles (8 knots, snorkel) 370 miles (submerged)
> 
> Displacement : 1100 tons surfaced. 1285 tons surmerged
> 
> Crew : 30 (6 officers)
> 
> Torpedo : 14 STN SUT mod 2 or LG Whiteshark 8 533mm/21inch Torpedo tubes
> 
> Mines : 28 mines (instead of torpedo)
> 
> Missile : SUB-Harpoon
> 
> Countermeasures ESM : Argo
> 
> Sonars : Atlas Elecktronik CSU 83
> 
> Weapon control : Atlas Elecktronik ISUS 83 TFCS
> 
> Radars Navigation : I-Band
> *
> *https://knowledgsearch.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/ss-209-changbogo-class-submarines/*
> 
> *SSK Andrasta Littoral Submarine, France*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 19-crew, 855t displacement, Andrasta submarine, announced by DCNS in September 2008, has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters, but remains a formidable adversary in blue (deep) water environments.
> 
> The submarine is named after Andrasta, the Celtic goddess of war whose name means victorious or invincible. The prime contractor, DCNS, considers that the Andrasta has no equivalent for littoral missions in terms of manoeuvrability and stealth.
> 
> *Andrasta submarine design*
> The submarine design draws heavily on the proven configuration and systems adopted for the Scorpene family and has about 70% commonality with the Scorpene. The Andrasta surfaced displacement is 855t compared to the 1,790t to 2,010t displacement of the Scorpene. The submarine incorporates the same level of safety, stealth signatures and systems integration as the Scorpene.
> 
> "The SSK Andrasta submarine has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters."
> The Andrasta can lurk on the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 100m. At a speed of 4kt the range is more than 3,000nm and more than 1,800nm at 8kt.
> 
> Andrasta is being presented to world markets at about half the cost of attack submarines such as the Scorpene. The Andrasta design can incorporate extra performance options which are not mandatory for littoral missions but which customer countries may require, without degrading the submarine’s efficiency.
> 
> For specials operations, the Andrasta has a deployment airlock for combat swimmers, electronic warfare and intelligence gathering systems.
> 
> *Andrasta missions*
> The submarine missions cover anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other ships or maritime assets. The Andrasta is equipped to communicate easily with other assets and command centres.
> 
> *Hull design*
> The double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics. An X-configuration rudder has independently operated surfaces for a high level of manoeuvrability including a small turning radius.
> 
> The small hull helps contribute to the submarine's stealth characteristics. The submarine has a diving depth to 200m and a submerged endurance of five days. It also has a very low acoustic and visual signature.
> 
> *Command and control*
> The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy
> 
> The combat management system is integrated with the sonar and other sensors (optical, optronic, electronic support measures, radar) and carries out the location and identification of vessels, target tracking, tactical analysis, decision making, action management, exchange of tactical data via datalinks, the control of weapons systems and engagement of targets.
> 
> "Andrasta's double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics."
> The submarine is equipped with high-precision navigation and surveillance systems for operation in littoral waters. Surveillance missions can be successfully carried out while the submarine is at rest on the seabed.
> 
> *Weapons*
> The Andrasta can accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes such as the Black Shark, anti-ship missiles such as the Exocet SM-39 and a mine-laying system. The torpedoes and missiles are stored and carried in the six forward torpedo tubes. The small hull size of the submarine does not accommodate torpedoes and missiles for reload.
> 
> *Special forces*
> The Andrasta submarines, which can carry two passengers plus a team of six divers, can be deployed for special forces missions which gives the Andrasta an enhanced attack capability comparable to larger submarines. The submarine is fitted with a lock-out / lock-in chamber for combat swimmers.
> 
> http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/andrasta-submarine/
> 
> 
> 
> *SSK Scorpene Class Attack Submarine, France*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Scorpene submarine has been jointly developed by DCNS of France (formerly DCN) and Navantia (formerly Bazan, then Izar) of Spain. Two Scorpene submarines were ordered by Chile. The vessels replace two Oberon Class submarines which were retired in 1998 and 2003.
> 
> The first, O'Higgins, was built at DCN shipyard in Cherbourg, launched in November 2003, and commissioned in September 2005. It arrived in Chile in January 2006. The second, Carrera, built at the Navantia shipyard in Cartagena, Spain, was launched in November 2004 and commissioned in July 2006. Carrera arrived at its homeport of Talcahuano in December 2006.
> 
> *Chilean Navy Scorpene submarines*
> The 1,500t Scorpene built for the Chilean Navy has a length of 66.4m. The two vessels are powered by four diesel generators providing more than 2,500kW using GM synchronous motors with permanent magnets.
> 
> The Chilean Scorpene has a hull-mounted medium-frequency active / passive sonar. The vessels are armed with WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes.
> 
> The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo, which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head, and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery. Black Shark also arms the two Scorpene vessels for the Royal Malaysian Navy.
> 
> The six torpedo tubes are capable of firing SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, which have a range of 50km, but they are not initially carried. The vessels are equipped with EDO Reconnaissance Systems AR-900 electronic support measures/direction-finding (ESM/DF) system.
> 
> *Malaysian Navy Scorpene attack submarines*
> The Royal Malaysian Navy placed a contract for two Scorpene submarines in June 2002. The first vessel, KD Tunku Abdul Rahman, was launched at DCNS Cherbourg in October 2007. It was handed over in January 2009 in Toulon and arrrived in Malaysia in September 2009.
> 
> The second, Tun Razak, was launched at Navantia Cartagena in October 2008 and commissioned in 2009. DCNS built the bow sections, Navantia the aft sections.
> 
> *Indian Navy Scorpene attack submarines*
> "The SSK Scorpene attack submarine is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability."
> In October 2005, India placed an order for six Scorpene submarines. The submarines are being built at the state-owned Mazagon dockyard in Bombay, with technical assistance and equipment from French companies DCN and Thales.
> 
> At the same time, India also placed an order for 36 MBDA SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles to arm the submarines.
> 
> Construction of the first vessel, INS Kalvari, began in December 2006 and is scheduled to be delivered by March 2017. The second submarine in class, INS Khanderi, was launched in January 2017. The total cost of the submarines is estimated to be Rs235.6bn ($3.75bn).
> 
> *Brazilian Navy Scorpene attack submarines*
> In December 2008, Brazil placed an order for four diesel-electric-powered submarines based on the Scorpene.
> 
> The submarines are being built by a joint venture company set up by DCNS and Odebrecht of Brazil and the first submarine is expected to enter service in 2017. The construction of the submarines started in July 2011.
> 
> *Weapon systems*
> The Scorpene attack submarine can carry 18 torpedoes and missiles or 30 mines. It is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability. Positive discharge launching is by an air turbine pump.
> 
> "Handling and loading of weapons is automated."
> The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles. The handling and loading of weapons is automated.
> 
> *SUBTICS combat management system*
> The SUBTICS combat management system, with up to six multifunction common consoles and a centrally situated tactical table, is collocated with the platform-control facilities.
> 
> The combat management system is composed of a command and tactical data handling system, a weapon control system and an integrated suite of acoustic sensors with an interface to a set of air surface detection sensors and to the integrated navigation system. The system can also download data from external sources.
> 
> The integrated navigation system combines data from global positioning systems, the log, depth measurement and the ship's trim / list monitoring system. The Scorpene monitors the environment including seawater density and temperature and the submarine's own noise signature.
> 
> *Sonar suite*
> The vessel's sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array.
> 
> *Control and monitoring*
> All submarine handling operations are carried out from the control room. The vessel features a high level of automation and surveillance, with automatic control mode of rudders and propulsion, continuous monitoring of the propulsion systems and platform installations, centralised and continuous surveillance of all potential hazards (leaks, fires, presence of gases) and the status of the installations that affect the safety while submerged.
> 
> *Construction*
> "The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles."
> The submarine incorporates a high level of system redundancy to achieve an average 240 days at sea a year for each submarine. The maximum diving depth is 300m, giving the commander more tactical freedom than previously available on conventional submarines. There is no limit to the duration of dives at a maximum depth, other than the power systems and crew limitations.
> 
> The structure of the submarine uses high-yield stress-specific steel, enabling dives to maximum depths when necessary.
> 
> Incorporating high-tensile steels has reduced the weight of the pressure hull, allowing a larger load of fuel and ammunition. The reduced complement minimises training costs and increase combat efficiency by making more space, while a larger payload enhances the ship's autonomy.
> 
> When dived, the Scorpene has low radiated noise that permits improved detection ranges of its own sensors and reduced risk of detection by hostile sensors. The low radiated noise is achieved through the use of advanced hydrodynamics with an albacore bow shape, with fewer appendages and an optimised propeller.
> 
> Between the suspended decks, the equipment is mounted on elastic mountings wherever possible, and the noisiest systems have a double-elastic mounting to reduce the risk of their noise profiles being radiated outside the submarine. The shock-resistant systems have been developed from systems incorporated in advanced nuclear-powered submarine designs.
> 
> The low-acoustic signature and hydrodynamic shock-resistance give the Scorpene class the capability to carry out anti-submarine and anti-surface ship warfare operations in closed or open sea conditions, as well as the capability of working with special forces in coastal waters.
> 
> *Crew facilities*
> The ship can hold a total company of 31 men with a standard watch team of nine. The control room and the living quarters are mounted on an elastically supported and acoustically isolated floating platform. All living and operational areas are air-conditioned. The submarine also has space for six additional fold-down bunks for special operations crew.
> 
> "The ship can hold a total company of 31 men with a standard watch team of nine."
> The vessel is equipped with all the necessary systems to provide vital supplies, water, provisions, regeneration of the atmosphere, to ensure the survival of all crew for seven days.
> 
> The ship is equipped with full rescue and safety systems.
> 
> A connection point for a diving bell or deep submergence rescue vehicle (DSRV) allows collective rescue operations.
> 
> *Stealth design*
> The planning and design of the Scorpene was directed towards achieving an extremely quiet vessel with a great detection capability and offensive power.
> 
> The forms of the hull, the sail and the appendages have been specifically designed to produce minimum hydrodynamic noise. The various items of equipment are mounted on elastic supports, which are in turn mounted on uncoupled blocks and suspended platforms. The isolation also provides better shock protection to the equipment.
> 
> *Propulsion systems*
> The Scorpene has two diesel generation sets providing 1,250kW of power. At the top of the hull immediately above the diesel generator sets is a Dutch Breach machinery shipping hatch. The submarine has an elastically supported 2,900kW electronic engine.
> 
> There are two variants of Scorpene, the CM-2000 with the conventional propulsion system and the AM-2000 equipped with air independent propulsion. The AM-2000 is capable of remaining submerged on underwater patrol for three times longer than the CM-2000.
> 
> *Air independent propulsion*
> A conventional diesel-electrical submarine sailing underwater is difficult to detect. However the need to come repeatedly to periscope depth to recharge the batteries using the diesel engine greatly increases vulnerability by:
> 
> 
> Its aerial detectability, since the snorkel projecting from the water is detectable by radar
> Its underwater detectability due to increase in radiated noise from the working diesels
> The ratio between this time of greater vulnerability and the total operating time is known as the 'indiscretion rate' and for all conventional modem submarines the indiscretion ratio ranges typically from 7% to 10% on patrol at 4kt, and 20% to 30% in transit at 8kt.
> 
> "To lessen the submarine's vulnerability, Scorpene can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system."
> To lessen the submarine's vulnerability, the vessel can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system such as: the Stirling engine, the fuel cell, the closed circuit diesel and the module d'energie sous-marine autonome (MESMA) system .
> 
> The MESMA anaerobic system, in which heat in the primary circuit is produced by burning ethanol with oxygen, can be easily installed either at the start of the submarine's construction or in a later modernisation to convert the CM-2000 to an AM-2000 build standard.
> 
> With the MESMA system the AM-2000 submarine can stay down on underwater patrol three times longer than the CM-2000.
> 
> Its performance features remain the same in all other respects, except that the length increases to 70m and its submerged displacement to 1.870t (against the 61.7m and the 1,565t of the CM2000).
> 
> http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene




how about Augusta-90? MESMA system can also be fitted on that..
And Pakistan has export licence of them

@Rashid Mahmood @Zarvan


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## Super Falcon

HAIDER said:


> KSA better buy midget class and ask Isreal to modify . Isreali are master in making shallow water subs.


Stupid idea and what credibility Malaysian Navy has of sea war none U 214 Is the best diesel Electric Submarine which KSA can buy other options are Japanese Surya class subs Both are small subs and are of best of best technology


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## The SC

New World said:


> how about Augusta-90? MESMA system can also be fitted on that..
> And Pakistan has export licence of them
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood @Zarvan


Agosta-90 are pre-Scorpene tech, the Scorpene is the latest, it is not sure that the MESMA AIP is the system on the Scorpene or a newer one, and by the way KSA looks for ToT too.. Not to forget that KSA do not want India to be alarmed by training its subs personnel in Pakistan, Malaysia is neutral in this regard and that might be the reason for choosing it..



Super Falcon said:


> Stupid idea and what credibility Malaysian Navy has of sea war none U 214 Is the best diesel Electric Submarine which KSA can buy other options are Japanese Surya class subs Both are small subs and are of best of best technology


Germans didn't want to sell their Subs to KSA, that might change with a new government in Germany.. And the Japanese_ Sōryū_-class submarines are 3000t, they are too heavy for KSA needs, which is in the 1400 to 1600t, The Scorpene subs fit well, since the U-209 and 214 are not available.. but a South Korean option for the 214 might be looked at..


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## Penguin

Super Falcon said:


> Stupid idea and what credibility Malaysian Navy has of sea war none U 214 Is the best diesel Electric Submarine which KSA can buy other options are Japanese Surya class subs Both are small subs and are of best of best technology


Small? Soryu is one of the largest conventional SSK around. Type 214 is Similar to Scorpene AM2000

Type 214 (AIP)
Displacement:1,690 t (surfaced), 1,860 t (submerged)
Length: 213 feet 3 inches (65.0 m)
Beam: 20 feet 8 inches (6.3 m)
Draught: 19 feet 8 inches (6.0 m) 

Soryu (AIP)
Displacement: 2,900 t (surfaced), 4,200 t (submerged)
Length: 84.0 m (275 ft 7 in)
Beam: 9.1 m (29 ft 10 in)
Draught: 8.5 m (27 ft 11 in) 

The Scorpène class of submarines has four subtypes: the CM-2000 conventional diesel-electric version, the AM-2000 AIP derivative, the downsized CA-2000 coastal submarine, and the enlarged S-BR for the Brazilian Navy, without AIP

Displacement:

1,565 t (CM-2000)
1,870 t (AM-2000)
2,000 t (S-BR)
Length:

61.7 m (202 ft) (CM-2000)
70 m (230 ft) (AM-2000)
75 metres (246 ft) (S-BR)
Beam: 6.2 m (20 ft)
Draught: 5.4 m (18 ft)
Draft: 5.8 m (19 ft)

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Michael Corleone

what subs have they ordered? or are they planning to acquire? from whom?


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## Rashid Mahmood

New World said:


> how about Augusta-90? MESMA system can also be fitted on that..
> And Pakistan has export licence of them
> 
> Pakistan does not have export licence for MESMA or the 90-B.


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## Chhatrapati

New World said:


> they operate in friendly environment, they dont have any sworn enemy..
> they have scorpion sub, and saudi might be interested in buying that sub..
> @Rashid Mahmood @Zarvan



Scorpene class subs. They do have some issues with Indonesia but not serious. Enough for them to be alert. Hence the subs.


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## Zarvan

New World said:


> they operate in friendly environment, they dont have any sworn enemy..
> they have scorpion sub, and saudi might be interested in buying that sub..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how about Augusta-90? MESMA system can also be fitted on that..
> And Pakistan has export licence of them
> 
> @Rashid Mahmood @Zarvan


A Country not having Armed Forces or reducing its forces thinking they don't have the enemy is the biggest fool on face of the earth. No they won't sell there submarines in fact they plan to grow induct more Ships and also Submarines and every country should do it, even if you haven't faced war in decades. As for Saudi Arabia they are doing good and yes they need to induct Submarines and I hope the Submarines they induct are equipped with VLS to carry Cruise Missiles and they also need to go for Destroyers.


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## New World

The SC said:


> Agosta-90 are pre-Scorpene tech, the Scorpene is the latest, it is not sure that the MESMA AIP is the system on the Scorpene or a newer one, and by the way KSA looks for ToT too.. Not to forget that KSA do not want India to be alarmed by training its subs personnel in Pakistan, Malaysia is neutral in this regard and that might be the reason for choosing it..


recent Scorpene data leak will damage its reputation in arm market..

did that means that KSA is giving more weight-age to india compare to Pakistan?


sir what did you write? i didnt saw anything..


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## Super Falcon

Penguin said:


> Small? Soryu is one of the largest conventional SSK around. Type 214 is Similar to Scorpene AM2000
> 
> Type 214 (AIP)
> Displacement:1,690 t (surfaced), 1,860 t (submerged)
> Length: 213 feet 3 inches (65.0 m)
> Beam: 20 feet 8 inches (6.3 m)
> Draught: 19 feet 8 inches (6.0 m)
> 
> Soryu (AIP)
> Displacement: 2,900 t (surfaced), 4,200 t (submerged)
> Length: 84.0 m (275 ft 7 in)
> Beam: 9.1 m (29 ft 10 in)
> Draught: 8.5 m (27 ft 11 in)
> 
> The Scorpène class of submarines has four subtypes: the CM-2000 conventional diesel-electric version, the AM-2000 AIP derivative, the downsized CA-2000 coastal submarine, and the enlarged S-BR for the Brazilian Navy, without AIP
> 
> Displacement:
> 
> 1,565 t (CM-2000)
> 1,870 t (AM-2000)
> 2,000 t (S-BR)
> Length:
> 
> 61.7 m (202 ft) (CM-2000)
> 70 m (230 ft) (AM-2000)
> 75 metres (246 ft) (S-BR)
> Beam: 6.2 m (20 ft)
> Draught: 5.4 m (18 ft)
> Draft: 5.8 m (19 ft)


Still I go with power punch what money can buy


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## The SC

New World said:


> recent Scorpene data leak will damage its reputation in arm market..
> 
> did that means that KSA is giving more weight-age to india compare to Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> sir what did you write? i didnt saw anything..


KSA will get custom made Scorpene, it is only the data on existing ones that was compromised..
We both know how many Indians are working in KSA and the GCC..So if you have followed the logic of my post , you would have seen that KSA does not favour India over Pakistan, and why should it do so? To the contrary, Pakistan is usually the favourite..
Pakistan has very good and potent subs, but it is not what KSA will buy.. they are not even produced anymore..It would have been nice though if KSA could buy the Agosta-90 AIP design with Full ToT and modernize it with the help of Turkey or China.. but it is doubtful that the French will allow that, knowing how they protect their advanced tech.. Are we seeing a new trend on their part for the Gowind corvettes' ToT to Egyptians? It is not sure, it might just be the same ToT pattern followed with Pakistan for the Agosta-90 submarines.. meaning limited ToT with local production..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Penguin

Super Falcon said:


> Still I go with power punch what money can buy


Meaning what?


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## comrade uraa

The SC said:


> Read post # 2, that is why, and it indicates that KSA might be going for French subs..Turkey operates German Subs and Pakistan operates pre Scorpene subs, the facilities in Malaysia are the most modern and specific to the Scorpene..
> 
> 
> What are all the submarines in the world for?


so who are they gonna use it against? playing games?

do the saudis even need forces? 3 rockets are fired on them by houthis and they shout for 34 nation allaince. where was it since 1991 to 2016 for Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Syria?


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## The SC

comrade uraa said:


> so who are they gonna use it against? playing games?
> 
> do the saudis even need forces? 3 rockets are fired on them by houthis and they shout for 34 nation allaince. where was it since 1991 to 2016 for Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Syria?


It is a good question, but it is like all other nations with submarines, they use it as a deterrent first and a weapon second..


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## comrade uraa

The SC said:


> It is a good question, but it is like all other nations with submarines, they use it as a deterrent first and a weapon second..


saudis only using others...


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