# Can India's PAD and AAD ABM systems effective against pakistans missiles?



## suleman yousaf

Greeting to all the viewers of this thread.I just want information that are our ballistic missiles effective against their PAD and AAD?Can they evade them?I would like everyone veiws.Please please please no nationalist verbal fighting.I welcome all comments,views and theories.


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## gubbi

Basically no!
Check this out......be afraid, very afraid 











Ballistic Missile Defense


> Missile defence was one of the potential areas for strategic partnership between the US and India identified in the Next Steps in Strategic Partnership (NSSP) in January 2004. June 2005, as part of the "New Framework for the U.S.-India Defense Relationship," signed by US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Indian Defense Minister Pranab Mukherjee, the United States offered India increased opportunities for technology transfer, collaboration, co-production, and research and development, with the understanding that US technology-related sanctions on India will be lifted.
> 
> The US turned down Israel&#8217;s request to transfer the Arrow-II (a US-Israel joint venture) to India, despite it being an endo-atmospheric (range within Earth&#8217;s atmosphere) system, though it agreed to transfer the Green Pine Radar. Two Green Pine units were transfered to India around July 2002 for evaluation. One was sent for trial to the national capital area and another was placed closer to the border to permit surveillance of Pakistani tests. Then in August 2005 India's Defense Secretary Yogendera Narain revealed that, after three to four years of discussions, India had acquired a third Green Pine radar from Israel for "advanced research". In February 2003 it was reported that India had agreed to invest approximately $150 million in Israel's Arrow-2 anti-missile system.
> 
> Indian BMD experimentats progressed rapidly after the DRDO convinced the government on its ability to develop BMD technology. DRDO is testing a two-tier BMD (ballistic missile defence) system, capable of tracking and destroying incoming hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere. DRDO's BMD program has a two-tiered system consisting of two interceptor missiles, namely Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) for high altitude interception and Advanced Air Defence (AAD) for lower altitude interception. The PAD missiles are for intercepting ballistic missiles at altitudes between 50-80 km and the Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile is for destroying them at heights between 15-30 km [the capability aspired by the Akash].
> 
> The BMD system was tested for the first time on 27 November 2006 when an exo-atmospheric hypersonic interceptor missile was used to destroy an "enemy'' Prithvi missile at an altitude of 40-50 km. With the test of the PAD missile, India became the fourth country to have successfully developed an Anti-Ballistic missile system, after United States, Russia and Israel. The second time, on 06 December 2007, an endo-atmospheric interceptor took on an enemy missile at an altitude of 15-km. As of early 2008 it was planned that in July 2008 there would be another test of the exo-interceptor, at an 80-km altitude against a longer range 'enemy' missile [such a test was conducated in March 2009] Then, in September-October 2008, it was planned to test the exo and endo together.
> 
> On 06 March 2009 Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted a test of its interceptor missile and missile tracking radars for validating the advancements made in the Air Defence program. Modifications made in the interceptor missile PAD 02 provided it with higher energy, an improved guidance and control system and on top of it all, a Gimbaled Directional Warhead with it. Though the interceptor missiles, have been tested earlier, the main aim of thetest was to validate the capabilities of the indigenously developed 'Swordfish' Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR). Swordfish is a target acquisition and fire control radar for the BMD system. The missile to be hit will be fired from a longer distance than it was in the earlier test. DRDO would test whether the radar can track the incoming missile from that distance or not.
> 
> India inched closer towards its endeavour to put in place its own home-grown Ballistic Missile Defence System as it successfully carried out the third Interceptor test on 06 March 2009 at 1624 hrs from Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island in Orissa. The mission control room burst into raptures as the radar display indicated the interception and destruction of the decoy enemy missile by the interceptor. Today&#8217;s test achieved all the mission objectives. The two-stage Interceptor Missile fitted with advanced systems hit the target enemy missile at 75 kms altitude. To mimic the incoming enemy&#8217;s ballistic missile trajectory, Dhanush missile went to an altitude of 120 Km and was launched from ship about 100 km away from the Orissa Coast. The Interceptor missile was launched from a mobile launcher located on Wheeler Island Launch Complex.
> 
> After the successful test of BMD system on 06 March 2009, top DRDO scientist V K Saraswat said the Indian Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) shield was better than the American system. &#8220;PAC III is an outdated system. Our Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile is 30 per cent superior in terms of range and capability. AAD intercepts at much higher ranges and altitudes compared to PAC III as it has only 15km range for BMD.&#8221;
> 
> Saraswat said Russia, Israel and France provided assistance in areas where DRDO needed help &#8220;bridging technology gap and accelerating technology development.&#8221; Russia helped India develop the new Radio Frequency Seeker for the interceptor, Israel provided help in developing the &#8216;Swordfish&#8217; long-range tracking radar and the French helped with the Fire Control System for the BMD.
> 
> After the third test in early 2009, plans called for a test of the endo and exo together in an integrated mode later in 2009. DRDO said the first phase of the system would be developed by 2011. If the tests prove successful, the DRDO will go ahead with the deployment of the BMD by 2015.
> 
> To tackle missiles with a striking range of over 6,000 km, hypersonic interceptor missiles will have to be developed for the phase 2 of the defence program. Plans are also afoot to have space-based surveillance systems to ensure a hostile threat can be detected even earlier than the present long-range tracking radars (LRTRs) used in the BMD system.



PAD/AAD (India), Self-propelled surface-to-air missiles


> Type
> Self-propelled static surface-to-air missile system
> 
> Development
> India is developing a complete suite of air defence missiles that are both endo-atmospheric and exo-atmospheric that will employ Network Centric technology and *will be able to engage all types of targets including:Short-Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM)Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles (IRBM)Air breathing targets such as aircraft Cruise missiles*The system is expected to be deployed in a mix and match group to counter short reaction threats. Details of at least two missiles have been released, the PAD and AAD. There has however been some discussion as to whether an air-to-air missile currently in development - the Astra - has already been involved in user firing trials in a surface-to-air role. This may well be used as a means of either point defence, or at the very least in defence of the two primary missile systems against SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defence) attacks. A further missile development that will increase the range and capability of the system is know as the PDV, this is also due for firing trials sometime early in the FY2010. With this capability, India will have protection cover in the western region and the northeastern region against those targets that are launched from 2,500 km. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed technologies including Micro Electro Mechanical Systems (MEMS), Nano materials and Nano sensors to enable it to enter this particular area for missile defence and has laid down a solid foundation for the indigenous missile defence of India from its local adversaries such as Pakistan and.....snipped....



Building a Missile Shield

Indian Ballistic Missile Defense Program

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## SekrutYakhni

Deleted........


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## SMC

I am not expert of missles, but I know that Shaheen II has a very comprehensive anti-missile shield evasion system. So it would be interesting to see how the system you mentioned stack up against Shaheen II.


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## Chanakyaa

ABM systems are more of "star wars" type futuristic technology.
It will be quite premature to think that any of ABM systems existing now, can do the Job.
Only Russia has an active ABM system which is quite useless as it a dummy when US Trident MIRVed Missiles will be in the air ; Till date there has been no ABM againt MIRVed Weapons.

In the India-Pakistan scenario, things are a bit easier ; with either countries not having MIRVs as of now, Indian ABM has a lower degree of offense to face.

PAD and AAD have been tested against a Midified Prithvi, which is a Tactical missile. Though it was give a path to mimic chinese M11 which it hit successfully, the situation will vary when it comes to a real Long Range Missile Intercept. India has S-300 system as well employed around several cities.

Indian ABM , as of NOW Cannot have a good dependable ABM quality, but its just the beginning. The Threat is more from Strategic Missiles with ranges above 2000 KM ; for which the system is NOT ready.

PAD+AAD ::
Tactical Missiles = Yes [ lower range Missiles ]
Strategic Long Range Missiles = NO [ The High speed of projectile, early detection adn trajectory projection being the key issues ]

Having seen the results of US' ABM programmes, time n again Ballistic Missiles seem to be Invincible. and I will be surprised and infact it will be too early if India finds a solution to the issue.

Its an Awesome beginning but still Long way to go, If we do it in a real Proved way, India may actually claim to be The First !

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## holysaturn

a complete ballistic missile shield can never be achieved,but if the BMD can take out a few missiles(differentiating decoys),i think it could make a big difference for a second,deadly ,unacceptable strike.and the two tier approach increases the propability of interception greatly.it would be better to take out missiles using the pradhuyma(PDV) than the ashwin(AAD) because it can prevent nuclear wastes falling towards the earth.


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## RiazHaq

Based on what is known today about Israel's ambitious Arrow program (and reported India-Israel ABM collaboration), there is a strong possibility that India's missile shield program will not meet any of its key objectives. However, it makes no sense to build Pakistan's national security strategy on hopes of India failing. The right Pakistani response, in my view, should be as follows:

1. Pakistan should gradually build up a larger arsenal of at least a thousand ballistic missiles with an appropriate mix of nuclear and conventional warheads and decoys to make India's missile shield much less effective.

2. Pakistani defense scientists and engineers should study all available information and data on Israel's Arrow technology to develop appropriate counter measures to confuse, frustrate and effectively penetrate any missile shields developed and deployed by India.

3. Pakistani defense scientists and engineers need to look into effective and affordable missile defense development in partnership with their Chinese counterparts to deal with the common Indian threat faced by both.

High altitude nuclear EMP can also effectively negate both Ballistic and Anti-basslistic guidance systems. 

Read more at Haq's Musings: India's Missile Shield and Israel Envy Threaten Pakistan

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## gubbi

Ahsan_R said:


> I am not expert of missles, but I know that Shaheen II has a very comprehensive anti-missile shield evasion system. So it would be interesting to see how the system you mentioned stack up against Shaheen II.


The terminal stage of the missile, the warhead does have terminal guidance capability. Its not known whether Pakistan possesses such technology yet. This does somewhat complicate things a bit.
On a lighter note, there's only one way to find it out! Send one to India and lets see.
Disclaimer: We shall not be responsible for the consequences that will follow.
ps: there are two ways this could go

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## Chanakyaa

RiazHaq said:


> Based on what is known today about Israel's ambitious Arrow program (and reported India-Israel ABM collaboration), there is a strong possibility that India's missile shield *program will not meet any of its key objectives.*



First a Qs. What do u mean by "ANY" ? 

Well, US had many "Ambitious" BMD projects, including NMD but which were quite unsatisfactory. 
Its an Entirely new Area of Military Research and NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS HAVING any BMD DEFENSE AGAINST THE MISSILES THEY WILL FACE.

So, No matter Arrow 1 was Good but It can Intercept Gauri; Can be possible but very very uncertain.
So It wont be wise to call off Indian BMD Plan because :

*#1. If NO country like US and Russia have made a genuine BMD, will it be good to call of our own BMD programme just because we have similar joint programme with another country ?

#2. The 2 Tests have been 100&#37; Successful. Whay call of a Successful project ?
*


> However, it makes no sense to build Pakistan's national security strategy on hopes of India failing. The right Pakistani response, in my view, should be as follows:
> 
> 1. Pakistan should gradually build up a larger arsenal of at least a thousand ballistic missiles with an appropriate mix of nuclear and conventional warheads and decoys to make India's missile shield much less effective.



Do You know that a mere 50-100 strikes are enough to take India Down. ( Estimated to be around 20 for Pakistan , Read NuclearWeaponArchive )
*Besides will it be Financially Feasable to Produce, Maintain and Upgrade systems for 1000 Nuclear Weapons ?
*


> 2. Pakistani defense scientists and engineers should study all available information and data on Israel's Arrow technology to develop appropriate counter measures to confuse, frustrate and effectively penetrate any missile shields developed and deployed by India.



Excellent Suggestion. They must take your Advice.



> 3. Pakistani defense scientists and engineers need to look into effective and affordable missile defense development in partnership with their Chinese counterparts to deal with the common Indian threat faced by both.



That may be good but IMO pakistan should think differently :

#1. Dont Waster your Money and Time for BMD, as None have been successful. Get one from China Or US.

*#2. Strike the Root. MIRV your Missiles and All Indian BMD Plans will be a waste.*



> High altitude nuclear EMP can also effectively negate both Ballistic and Anti-basslistic guidance systems.



SDI ?

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## SQ8

While the research and study for the MIRV's exist. The Political establishment along with a few senior officers in the military have cold feet about giving any further go ahead. While some suggest keeping the whole program black. The information tends to leak out eventually. And bringing MIRVed warheads to the region will seriously upset the already delicate detente between the two countries and a new strategic arms race will spawn.
On the prospect of warheads capable of evasive maneuvers...Been there..done that..nuff said.


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## zraver

XiNiX said:


> *#2. Strike the Root. MIRV your Missiles and All Indian BMD Plans will be a waste.*



Uhmm, no 

lets says a normal interceptor missile has a pk of 50, so you want to fire 3-4 interceptors per incoming ballistic target. A battery of 4 launchers each with 6 missiles can thus shoot down 6 missiles.

What an MIRC does is increase the number of ballsitic targets by the number of the warheads. 3 ballistic tracks might become 9. If there is only 1 defending battery that is three more tracks than can be engaged. The key for the defense is to have more interceptor missiles than the enemy has warheads. MIRV's are not majic, they are fast and small, but not faster than microprocessors and not small than modern radars can detect. They are also white hot and fragile.

Intercepting them can be done with today's technology. With the new laser technology coming on line it will get even easier.

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## brahmastra

PAD- prithvi air defence. if I'm not wrong than we can use it as attack and defence weapon. attack like normal prithvi missile and use it also as anti missile.


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## RiazHaq

It is very likely that the electromagnetic disturbance caused by even a small above-ground nuclear explosion will render the microelectronics in ballistic and anti-ballistic missiles useless. So, in the event of nuclear war, the talk of second strike is probably just fantasy. 

Read more at Haq's Musings: India's Missile Shield and Israel Envy Threaten Pakistan


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## navtrek

RiazHaq said:


> It is very likely that the electromagnetic disturbance caused by even a small above-ground nuclear explosion will render the microelectronics in ballistic and anti-ballistic missiles useless. So, in the event of nuclear war, the talk of second strike is probably just fantasy.
> 
> Read more at Haq's Musings: India's Missile Shield and Israel Envy Threaten Pakistan



nice article but it goes on to suggest Pakistan should develop 1000 nukes ? all the best

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## RiazHaq

Let's not confuse ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads. In my opinion, what Pakistan needs is a significantly large combination of nukes, conv warheads and decoys with countermeasures to overcome any missile shield that threatens peace by changing the balance of terror in India's favor. This is essential to preserve peace in South Asia.


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## suleman yousaf

Well a few things can make PAD and AAD useless.For example:
1.MIRV our missiles.There are news that Shaheen 2 is MIRVed but no one can confirm it because such news it kept strictly confidential.But NESCOM promises that Shaheen 3(under development) is certainly MIRVed.

2.Add stealthy features to it like in RA"AD and Babur.I know that it is difficult but the world is a witness that the Pakis can do unbelievable feats.

3.Make them able to do extreme evasive maneuvers.This is very problematic for the existing ABM systems.

4.Make the missiles able to carry a large number of decoys and other ABM counter measurements.

P.S[Im no expert at missile technology owing to the fact that im just an O level student.In my opinion sending a Pakistani missile is going to solve many queries and end the confusion(IM not responsible if it really happens)].


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## nightcrawler

gubbi said:


> The terminal stage of the missile, the warhead does have terminal guidance capability. Its not known whether Pakistan possesses such technology yet. This does somewhat complicate things a bit.
> On a lighter note, there's only one way to find it out! Send one to India and lets see.
> Disclaimer: We shall not be responsible for the consequences that will follow.
> ps: there are two ways this could go



Its not the terminal guidance of warheads that complicates thing but true MIRV missile do have ECM shields & decoys accompanying each warhead which complicates the things, furthermore the ejection of each warhead at different locations can't be anticipated beforehand that also lowers the probability of neutralizing them 
View attachment 701c3de583bb4407db2daec30987ed65.jpg

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## aanamehra

In image ur showing MIRV missile ..... 
thats a big dream of ur nation ... but rather shahhen3 ur shahhen 2is also not ready so how can u us MIRV in ur picture. to show that ur missiles can defend indian shield in 1-2 years indian missile shield become that much successful that it can stop each and every missile from ur nation .. and for ur reply u have nothing.. so thing deep about it.


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## prithwidw

*Can India's PAD and AAD ABM systems effective against pakistans missiles?*

No, not yet.


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## su-47

Lets face it, no ABM shield to date is 100&#37; effective. In fact, I would say, most are not even 50% effective.

Leaving the MIRVs aside for the moment, if Pak decided to launch all its missiles at India, our cities WILL be hit. PAD/AAD will shoot down a few missiles, but won't be able to take on all of them, especially the cruise missiles.

One solution to minimise damage is the most dastardly one. A devastating first strike that will cripple enemy nuclear capabilities, leaving them with very few missiles and warheads, which an ABM defence can take on. And this is the reason why USA and USSR had so many nukes. So that in case of escalating war, they could use enough nukes to decimate the other, and reduce the nuclear retaliation.

In Indo-Pak scenario, India has a no first-use policy. But I often wonder if this policy is wise. To put it very brutally, the best Indian defence against Pakistani nukes would be:

1) Trace enemy nukes: Unless some top level officials defect, it will be impossible to get locations of all nukes. But it will be possible to get location of some nukes through espionage.

2) kill the enemy high command: Very difficult to do, since high command would whisked off to safe houses and underground bunkers moment war is announced. But they are the people who have the authority to authorise a nuclear attack, and are likely to be the ones with the codes for arming the warheads, so killing them can result in a launch being prevented or delayed enough for ground troops to search for the nukes.

3) Full-out nuclear strike: Decimate enemy with nuclear attack. Any nukes traced, plus any susceptible location for hiding nukes or enemy high command should be nuked, along with any other strategic assets. If enough enemy nukes are taken out in this strike, then enemy's capacity to ensure a successful attack will be lost. They will be left with too few nukes. The remaining nukes might be handled by ABM system.


*This is just a hypothetical, 'victory at any cost' scenario.* *They are NOT my views or personal opinion.* If it has to succeed, it is essential to have a lot of intelligence gathered on enemy nukes and enemy high command. But most of all, it requires a psychotic mindset ready to kill millions of innocent civilians. Thankfully, it has hasn't happened yet, and hopefully never will.

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## jagjitnatt

As of current missile inventory of Pakistan, PAD and AAD should be enough. Although they'll never have a 100% success rate. Rather the success rate would be around 30%. Hence for every missile we should have three intercepts ready.

So its possible to stop the missiles from Pakistan, although it would require a lot of missiles. 

But in future if Pakistan get ICBM, then it would get a little tough. Although till then we might also upscale our capability to deal with them. I believe today we have the capability to destroy a missile with range up to 1500 km.


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## lhuang

Unlikely, when one missile gets through, both countries just lost, one the war, the other their country.


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## xuxu1457

*Can India's PAD and AAD ABM systems effective against pakistans missiles? *

*no,even US haven't the real against missiles system,anti-missile is only a probability*


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## Kinetic

xuxu1457 said:


> *Can India's PAD and AAD ABM systems effective against pakistans missiles? *
> 
> *no,even US haven't the real against missiles system,anti-missile is only a probability*



They are not talking about one or two interceptors. India will deploy/launch four missiles for every Pakistani missile. According to Dr. Saraswat (Indian BMD programme chief) that will lead to 99.98&#37; hit probability. 

Next BMD test will be PDV with solid first stage for Prithvi missile. This will allow PDV to go upto 130 km above earth and destroy incoming ballistic missiles. Currently India tested BMD at 15 km, 48 km and 75 km altitudes. 

Four missiles will try to destroy incoming ballistic missile at four different altitudes like 100 km+, ~50 km, ~25 km, ~15 km. If first one fails second one will take over, if second one fails third one will take over the job, if third one also fails than fourth one will do its job. 

*There is no surety of any BMD but this will certainly increase probability of hit! But its 100% correct that a BMD has huge psychological effects. *


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## Kinetic

suleman yousaf said:


> Well a few things can make PAD and AAD useless.For example:
> 1.MIRV our missiles.There are news that Shaheen 2 is MIRVed but no one can confirm it because such news it kept strictly confidential.But NESCOM promises that Shaheen 3(under development) is certainly MIRVed.


DR. Saraswat revealed that India working one miniature kill vehicles to destroy MIRV armed missiles. ItsPhase-II of the BMD programmes.



> 2.Add stealthy features to it like in RA"AD and Babur.I know that it is difficult but the world is a witness that the Pakis can do unbelievable feats.


Subsonic cruise missiles are easy to intercept when they can be tracked. Earlier it was difficult but currently AEROSAT and satellites made it easy. IAF's MR-SAM, SPYDER and Akash have capabilities to engage cruise missiles. Stealth features will improve their capabilities but than also it is possible to intercept them because of their slower speeds.



> 3.Make them able to do extreme evasive maneuvers.This is very problematic for the existing ABM systems.



Yes lateral thrusters and terminal maneuvers make it difficult but again the ABMs are much more agile than ballistic missiles. 



> 4.Make the missiles able to carry a large number of decoys and other ABM counter measurements.
> 
> P.S[Im no expert at missile technology owing to the fact that im just an O level student.In my opinion sending a Pakistani missile is going to solve many queries and end the confusion(IM not responsible if it really happens)].



When developing BMD they heavily considered these requirements needed to be a good ABM at current scenario. This was integral part of the development. The possible counter measures which the incoming ballistic missile may carry are...

1) Decoys, balloons, anti-simulator decoys, radar decoys.
2) Wide maneuvers in its terminal phases.


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## Mauryan

RiazHaq said:


> It is very likely that the electromagnetic disturbance caused by even a small above-ground nuclear explosion will render the microelectronics in ballistic and anti-ballistic missiles useless. So, in the event of nuclear war, the talk of second strike is probably just fantasy.
> 
> Read more at Haq's Musings: India's Missile Shield and Israel Envy Threaten Pakistan



That is why we say,you need self contained nuclear program to deal with those threats.Fortunately India has a robust nuclear program. Kali-5000 and other similar beam weapons have been extensively used to harden the electronics thats been used for both defence and space programs.
Also I dont say,its only India that does posses this hardening capability.but all space faring nations and nations with sophisticated nuclear programs does.

To clear your mispercetion of Second strike,It will be no fantasy at any cost.In case of a hypothetical indo-pak nuclear war,pak can only get one chance to strike and if not intercepted by ABM considering the area is not populated.The very next moment salvos will be fired at pak from air,land and sea.Yes ,definitely a second strike on pak might resemble a sci-fi.

And coming to the topic:

Lets wait untill Phase-I development completes.And let the User trials convence.Unlike akash SAM user trails, ABM trials will be much harder.these include launching of salvos and also different ranged missiles. Like launching Agni I/II and Prithvis at the same time to see the reaction time and Pk of the system. Then only you can get or expect an answer.Untill then its not worth going after buds.

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## Peregrine

Hi 
I think if Pakistan doesn't have any ABM Programme then they better develop a Ballistic missile like DF-21 with a speed of Mach 10, That would be a big nightmare for any enemy no matter how effective ABM'S they have got, But since Pakistan doesn't seem to concerned about India's ABM's i think they have already taken care of this so called threat to BM's


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## Donatello

India has done the right step, at least taken the baby steps of making it's own ABM. I doubt if they are battle ready or would be able to knock out Shaheen 2, i do not know. But what even i have heard from retired army engineers is that Shaheen 2 is MIRV. 

Plus, what early warning radar are they using? Like the Phalcons or some other long range radar? Any specs would add more fact than fiction to the story...


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## ao333

XiNiX said:


> ABM systems are more of "star wars" type futuristic technology.
> It will be quite premature to think that any of ABM systems existing now, can do the Job.
> Only Russia has an active ABM system which is quite useless as it a dummy when US Trident MIRVed Missiles will be in the air ; Till date there has been no ABM againt MIRVed Weapons.
> 
> In the India-Pakistan scenario, things are a bit easier ; with either countries not having MIRVs as of now, Indian ABM has a lower degree of offense to face.
> 
> PAD and AAD have been tested against a Midified Prithvi, which is a Tactical missile. Though it was give a path to mimic chinese M11 which it hit successfully, the situation will vary when it comes to a real Long Range Missile Intercept. India has S-300 system as well employed around several cities.
> 
> Indian ABM , as of NOW Cannot have a good dependable ABM quality, but its just the beginning. The Threat is more from Strategic Missiles with ranges above 2000 KM ; for which the system is NOT ready.
> 
> PAD+AAD ::
> Tactical Missiles = Yes [ lower range Missiles ]
> Strategic Long Range Missiles = NO [ The High speed of projectile, early detection adn trajectory projection being the key issues ]
> 
> Having seen the results of US' ABM programmes, time n again Ballistic Missiles seem to be Invincible. and I will be surprised and infact it will be too early if India finds a solution to the issue.
> 
> Its an Awesome beginning but still Long way to go, If we do it in a real Proved way, India may actually claim to be The First !



Ever heard of "second-stage interception?" You don't need to wait for a missile to begin re-entry before intercepting it.

Now, the United States, Russia, France, and China are the only states, which can indigenously produce MIRV ICBMS. Of the 4, all of them have successfully tested ABMs. So against Pakistan, sure... But towards those 4, it's pretty much a "Only they can hit you, but you can't hit them." scenario.


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## aks

Kinetic said:


> They are not talking about one or two interceptors. India will deploy/launch four missiles for every Pakistani missile. According to Dr. Saraswat (Indian BMD programme chief) that will lead to 99.98% hit probability.
> 
> Next BMD test will be PDV with solid first stage for Prithvi missile. This will allow PDV to go upto 130 km above earth and destroy incoming ballistic missiles. Currently India tested BMD at 15 km, 48 km and 75 km altitudes.
> 
> Four missiles will try to destroy incoming ballistic missile at four different altitudes like 100 km+, ~50 km, ~25 km, ~15 km. If first one fails second one will take over, if second one fails third one will take over the job, if third one also fails than fourth one will do its job.
> 
> *There is no surety of any BMD but this will certainly increase probability of hit! But its 100% correct that a BMD has huge psychological effects. *





american ABM was unable to stop iraqi scud missile which hit kuwait in 2006 if m not wrong ....

how indians ABM are going to stop our ballistic and cruise missiles


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## Kinetic

aks said:


> american ABM was unable to stop iraqi scud missile which hit kuwait in 2006 if m not wrong ....
> 
> how indians ABM are going to stop our ballistic and cruise missiles




Not sure about the news, is it in 2003? But US only fielded Patriot not full BMD system. Above all they also did not field THAAD in Kuwait. This will allow multi-layer BMD system just like India is developing. You will get multiple chances at different altitude to destroy an incoming BM.

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## Ecstacy

aks said:


> american ABM was unable to stop iraqi scud missile which hit kuwait in 2006 if m not wrong ....
> 
> how indians ABM are going to stop our ballistic and cruise missiles


Does it really depend upon the nationality or the technology??Anyways there can be no system which will provide 100% security.But presence of an effective system can reduce the damages to a great extent.Henceforth presence of an ABM systemis better than absence of it.Hope u get the message.

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## Ecstacy

ao333 said:


> Ever heard of "second-stage interception?" You don't need to wait for a missile to begin re-entry before intercepting it.
> 
> Now, the United States, Russia, France, and China are the only states, which can indigenously produce MIRV ICBMS. Of the 4, all of them have successfully tested ABMs. So against Pakistan, sure... But towards those 4, it's pretty much a "Only they can hit you, but you can't hit them." scenario.


Topic of the discussion is *Can India's PAD and AAD ABM systems effective against pakistans missiles?*.I think u need to keep it in mind before posting.
Anyways India is country that does not believe in waging war against each and every nation in this World.Though it will take necessary steps to *defend* itself from any potential threat.ABM is just one step towards that.

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## aks

Kinetic said:


> Not sure about the news, is it in 2003? But US only fielded Patriot not full BMD system. Above all they also did not field THAAD in Kuwait. This will allow multi-layer BMD system just like India is developing. You will get multiple chances at different altitude to destroy an incoming BM.



i dont know how ur ABM gona manage huge inventory of pakistani missiles


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## jagjitnatt

aks said:


> i dont know how ur ABM gona manage huge inventory of pakistani missiles



how many missiles in your inventory???
come up with a source. not secret info from ISI please and of course not personal experiences.

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## aks

jagjitnatt said:


> how many missiles in your inventory???
> come up with a source. not secret info from ISI please and of course not personal experiences.



our inventory is more then urz  most of ur ballistic missiles are based on old tech  our all missiles are operational while u guys are still evaluating them


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## jagjitnatt

aks said:


> our inventory is more then urz  most of ur ballistic missiles are based on old tech  our all missiles are operational while u guys are still evaluating them




You sure are smokin that green stuff a lot these days. 

Stop this nonsense. Ours is more than yours.  Used to say that in 2nd class in school. Even kids of high school would laugh on your logic.

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## Kinetic

aks said:


> i dont know how ur ABM gona manage huge inventory of pakistani missiles



BMs are costly to produce. Pakistan must not have 'huge' inventory, neither has India, check it again. Just for example: IAF getting get 250 Akash missiles in two years time. As far as I remember India is establishing production line to build 200 AAD missiles and ~35 Prithvi or say PAD missiles per year. Currently India can build ~10 Agni-II per year.


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## jha

hahaha internet surfing does not always help....really amusing to see some persons talking about disadvantages of liquid propelled missiles without thinking...


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## RiazHaq

Here's an interesting commentary on India's missile defense by a blogger on Nuclear Dreams:

Pakistan is a stones throw away from the Indian border, and as Gopalaswamy in this essay and Mian and others in a more detailed 2003 Science and Global Security article explain, flight time for a missile to reach New Delhi from Pakistan would be about 4-7 mins. What would the Indian authorities do in such a short time? Detecting any such signal and confirming it as a true one would consume all the time needed for authorities to determine it as a hostile missile launch from Pakistan. The detection would be done by the Arrow system that India acquired from Israel thats located about 200 kms from Delhi. But because of this very short flight time, there would be no time for further deliberation and any response would have to be a predetermined one.

As Mian and his colleagues state in their article, there are two forms which predetermined response could take; civil defense and/or retaliation. Retaliation if at all possible in such a short time would have to be very quick. Retaliation against nuclear-tipped missiles would be very difficult in the boost phase (right after the missile lifts off, which gives the defense about 90 seconds to destroy the missile) and extremely dangerous in the terminal phase (the phase before the missile hits the target during which its destruction could nonetheless cause great damage to the home territory). As both articles state, with such predetermined responses the threat of false alarms and nuclear conflict increases, an assertion borne out by several close calls during the Cold War even when the response time was much longer. 

Haq's Musings: India-Pakistan Military Balance


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## gambit

jagjitnatt said:


> For you liquid = old, outdated tech and solid = deadly missile
> But the truth is far from it. Read something about liquid propelled missiles and why rockets are liquid propelled and *only cheap rockets are solid propelled.*


Not true.



jagjitnatt said:


> Liquid propelled missiles have much greater control. Its thrust can vary with time and can be increased or decreased or even be stopped in case the mission needs to be aborted.


True.



jagjitnatt said:


> A solid booster once lit can not stop or change its course.


A booster rocket's, or booster stage's, job is to simply motivate the vehicle. It does not mean steerage mechanisms cannot be installed. It simply mean there is no need to steer the vehicle -- at this time.

Solid fuel can be throttled, not as responsive as liquid fuel, but its output can be modified once its *BURN* properties are known, as shown below...

Launch of the Titan 3C Solid-Fuel Rocket


> This mixture is in the long cylindical casings, strapped each side of the other three stages of the rocket. As it burns from the bottom up, *the propellant is packed in different shapes.* It gives a high thrust for the first 50 seconds after ignition and then, to reduce structural stress, burns more slowly after lift-off, giving about one-third of the original thrust for the rest of its total of about 2 minute duty.









A solid fuel rocket may be a stage of a larger vehicle, which can be composed of several rockets, or stages. A solid fuel rocket can contain several stages of its own composed of several shapes. Each shape is carefully studied as to its thrust output, from rise to fall. The sequencing of these shapes are important if the flight path itself contains phases. Each stage, or shape, will be ignited by the flame from the previous shape. Inter-stage, or inter-shape, points are where shut-off mechanisms can be installed, but like steerage mechanisms, shut-off devices can be unneeded. So why install them when weight is a penalty?



jagjitnatt said:


> That is why the first stage of Prithvi is solid and the final stage is liquid propelled.
> 
> Your missiles are solid propelled because creating solid propelled missiles is easier and cheaper. Liquid propelled missiles are very complex to build and very expensive too.


At this point of the totality of the flight, to simply motivate the vehicle, a solid fuel first or boost stage is good enough. Once the vehicle is at a certain desired phase, that first or boost stage is nothing but useless weight so it is better to discard it. This begs the question of why would anyone want to use a liquid fuel stage after this...

Liquid-propellant rocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The advantages and disadvantages of liquid fuel are clearly outlined. For the Prithvi, after boost stage discard, the vehicle would be clearly lightened so the superior throttling, or thrust varying capability, of this fuel would make a reasonable argument as to why it is used. But liquid fuel's maintenance requirements begs the question as to why would anyone want to burden field troops with increased technical tasks?

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## aks

jagjitnatt said:


> After over half an hour of searching the internet this is what you come up with.
> 
> Agni II is inducted since 2004. Its been 6 years since its in service.
> Also do you wonder why Prithvi still uses a liquid stage while we have the tech of solid stage, cause it is suitable for the missile.
> 
> For you liquid = old, outdated tech and solid = deadly missile
> But the truth is far from it. Read something about liquid propelled missiles and why rockets are liquid propelled and only cheap rockets are solid propelled.
> 
> Liquid propelled missiles have much greater control. Its thrust can vary with time and can be increased or decreased or even be stopped in case the mission needs to be aborted.
> 
> A solid booster once lit can not stop or change its course. That is why the first stage of Prithvi is solid and the final stage is liquid propelled.
> 
> Your missiles are solid propelled because creating solid propelled missiles is easier and cheaper. Liquid propelled missiles are very complex to build and very expensive too.





lol i am not wrong agni was failed in a night test last year  still this missile is under evaluation n testing phase  ...


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## Ecstacy

aks said:


> lol i am not wrong agni was failed in a night test last year  still this missile is under evaluation n testing phase  ...



lol i am not wrong ,Agni 3 is now ready for induction *this year*.Keep up with the changes man.Why still living in stone age??

Anyways a missile development process requires lot of testing,many of which may be unsuccessful.The Scientists work upon the shortcomings to make them more accurate,so that it may hit where it hurts the most. .U see the development process is indegeneous and there may be pitfalls.But it is still better than picking up a ready-made systems ,renaming it and calling it indegeneous development.Hope u get the message

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## Kinetic

aks said:


> lol i am not wrong agni was failed in a night test last year  still this missile is under evaluation n testing phase  ...



Agni-2 has many superior technologies. *OK, tell us one country whose missiles never failed during development, testing or trial?* Failure is an integral part of development. Every time they failed, they came up with a better system.


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## Bull

PAD - AAD can fail to stop missiles as per the law of probability and physics, but its definitly better to have it than not to have.


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## duhastmish

Kinetic said:


> Agni-2 has many superior technologies. *OK, tell us one country whose missiles never failed during development, testing or trial?* Failure is an integral part of development. Every time they failed, they came up with a better system.



Pakistan, their missiel test hardly ever fail, or may be i never read any news that their missile test ever had a failure.
thanks to future age pakistani technology they dont even test their missile much , and when they do it never fails.

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## vinaash

*The PAD and AAD are developed to intercept missiles with velocities upto 6km/s.
*
The two-tiered BMD System consists of the *PAD*, which will intercept missiles at exo-atmospheric altitudes of 50&#8211;80 km; and AAD Missile for interception at endoatmospheric altitudes of up to 30 km.Due to two successful interceptor missile tests carried out by India, the scientists have said that the AAD missile could be modified into a new extended range (up to 150km) surface-to-air missile that could be possibly named as &#8216;Ashvin.
In 2009, reports emerged of a new missile named the *PDV*. The PDV is said to be a two solid stage hypersonic anti-ballistic missile similar in class to the THAAD. The PDV is intended to replace the existing PAD in the PAD/AAD combination. It will have an IIR seeker for its kill vehicle as well. The PDV will replace the PAD with a far more capable missile and will complete the Phase 1 of the BMD system, allowing it to be operational by 2013. Whereupon Phase 2 development will take over for protection against missiles of the 5000 km class. The PDV is designed to take out the target missile at altitude above 150 kilometers.
*Pakistan can fire 10 missiles at a target but can pakistan spare 10 nuclear warheads??????*

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## Kinetic

duhastmish said:


> Pakistan, their missiel test hardly ever fail, or may be i never read any news that their missile test ever had a failure.
> thanks to future age pakistani technology they dont even test their missile much , and when they do it never fails.



dude everyone understood why I asked that question. no need to answer directly.  thats because he was talking only about India's failed tests.



Bull said:


> PAD - AAD can fail to stop missiles as per the law of probability and physics, but its definitly better to have it than not to have.



Yes thats a huge psychological impact.

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## letsbefriends

aks said:


> our inventory is more then urz  most of ur ballistic missiles are based on old tech  our all missiles are operational while u guys are still evaluating them



the thread is regarding india's PAD and AAD system and its effectiveness...which PART OF IT U DID NOT UNDERSTAND????

the trials r still in progress n we will start inducting them in our forces in 2012... and as far as inventory is concerned d guy asked u the sources dat says u have more missiles....NOT A ZAID HAMID THEORY...


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## IndianArmy

Most Of the People In Here Think that AAD and PAD can Just get hold of any Hostile Missile approaching us..... Let me tell You Which I have been telling For a Long Time....

AAD and PAD if strategically Set, and if the Target Comes in its range and The Given altitude, The target cannot escape from AAD and PAD provided the target is Subsonic. These Interceptor Missiles are Hypersonic themselves But I doubt an Interception in the Given range With a Supersonic Missile is possible especially with a Missile Like Brahmos..... These ABM's Are getting tested to destroy targets 4000-5000 km's away, and India is developing A radar which can scan over 1000-1500 kms to intercept the target successfully....

AAD and PAD are world class Missiles, But they arent ready yet...

And There would Be NO PAD and AAD.... there would be a combination of both these missiles namely PDV


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## Gene

Every system has some drawbacks,and missile defence system is not an exception.It can't stop all the incoming ballistic missiles,but definitely stop some of them.
Atleast we can stop some pakistani missiles,in contrast they can't stop even a single indian missile.

They are afraid of this & also little bit jealous.That's why they are saying " theses grapes are sour ".


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## S-A-B-E-R->

guys we have to remember its not just Anti ballestic systems also AC and sams count against these systems PAs solution is to cover a nuke armed missle with decoys and conventional armed BM also these ABM sites r the prime targets for cruze missles for a minimum of 1000km inside indian terrotary along with sam and AA also if a fallout startts the prime consern ll be to fire all nukes before they r damaged or chane of command is destroyed protection against these BM ll be very hard but not impossible also to keep in count a tactical mid air nuke explosion ll also damage all electrical systems down on ground there are thousands of tactical methods which can be used frm bothsides but saying that any strike ll be reduced to 30&#37;efficency is in accurate


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## Kinetic

IndianArmy said:


> Most Of the People In Here Think that AAD and PAD can Just get hold of any Hostile Missile approaching us..... Let me tell You Which I have been telling For a Long Time....
> 
> AAD and PAD if strategically Set, and if the Target Comes in its range and The Given altitude, The target cannot escape from AAD and PAD provided the target is Subsonic. These Interceptor Missiles are Hypersonic themselves But I doubt an Interception in the Given range With a Supersonic Missile is possible especially with a Missile Like Brahmos..... These ABM's Are getting tested to destroy targets 4000-5000 km's away, and India is developing A radar which can scan over 1000-1500 kms to intercept the target successfully....
> 
> AAD and PAD are world class Missiles, But they arent ready yet...
> 
> And There would Be NO PAD and AAD.... there would be a combination of both these missiles namely PDV



What ever you posted either already known or wrong. 

*First* you have to know that PAD and AAD are anti-ballistic missiles not anti-cruise missile, so there is no point of bringing Brahmos type missiles here.

*Second* The targets intercepted by PAD and AAD are hypersonic usually because of extreme high speed of ballistic missile in its terminal and mid course. 

*Third* they are not been tested to destroy target 4000 km away but 4000 km ranged missiles, for PDV. For PAD and AAD it is upto 2000 km. 
*
Fourth *PDV is a solid fueled version of PAD with IIR seeker. It is not a combination of PAD and AAD.


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## IndianArmy

Kinetic said:


> What ever you posted either already known or wrong.
> 
> *First* you have to know that PAD and AAD are anti-ballistic missiles not anti-cruise missile, so there is no point of bringing Brahmos type missiles here.



Iam Sorry, But the General perception of people in here bring in that every missile system could be destroyed by PAD and AAD, I was just trying to prove that wrong..



Kinetic said:


> *Second* The targets intercepted by PAD and AAD are hypersonic usually because of extreme high speed of ballistic missile in its terminal and mid course.



May I know which ballistic Missile travels hypersonic at Terminal and Mid course? I am really unaware of it, it would be great, if you could Enlighten me On that..



Kinetic said:


> *Third* they are not been tested to destroy target 4000 km away but 4000 km ranged missiles, for PDV. For PAD and AAD it is upto 2000 km.


*

Oops I missied out the word Launched from there, so sorry, I said, Its been tested to Intercept Missiles Launched from 4000-5000 away...



Kinetic said:



Fourth

Click to expand...

*


Kinetic said:


> PDV is a solid fueled version of PAD with IIR seeker. It is not a combination of PAD and AAD.



Oh God,What I meant was This missile can perform the Task Of both AAD and PAD Missile....

Iam sorry , I guess My posts have double meaning aswell.... Iam too old to come to Your generation, So I guess I must stop trying to post like Youths, Let this be a lesson for me...


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## Kinetic

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys we have to remember its not just Anti ballestic systems also AC and sams count against these systems PAs solution is to cover a nuke armed missle with decoys and conventional armed BM



For ACs we have Akash, SPYDER and future Barak-8 and SR-SAM. 

When developing BMD they heavily considered these requirements needed to be a good ABM at current scenario. This was integral part of the development. The possible counter measures which the incoming ballistic missile may carry are...

1) Decoys, balloons, anti-simulator decoys, radar decoys.
2) Wide maneuvers in its terminal phases. 

Dr. Saraswat (Project Director Missile Defence, current DRDO chief) talked about this in Aero India 2009 seminar on Indian missle development.








> also these ABM sites r the prime targets for cruze missles for a minimum of 1000km inside indian terrotary along with sam and AA
> also if a fallout startts the prime consern ll be to fire all nukes before they r damaged or chane of command is destroyed protection against these BM ll be very hard but not impossible also to keep in count a tactical mid air nuke explosion ll also damage all electrical systems down on ground there are thousands of tactical methods which can be used frm bothsides but saying that any strike ll be reduced to 30%efficency is in accurate



Thats why they are integrating all the systems radars (military, civilian and space based). The main advantage of 'No first use' policy is you can develop potential second strike capabilities, what India is doing. 

They are not talking about one or two interceptors. India will deploy/launch four missiles for every Pakistani missile. According to Dr. Saraswat (Indian BMD programme chief) that will lead to 99.98% hit probability. Four missiles will try to destroy incoming ballistic missile at four different altitudes like 100 km+, ~50 km, ~25 km, ~15 km. If first one fails second one will take over, if second one fails third one will take over the job, if third one also fails than fourth one will do its job.

*There is no surety of any BMD but this will certainly increase probability of hit! But its 100% correct that a BMD has huge psychological effects. *


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## Kinetic

IndianArmy said:


> Iam Sorry, But the General perception of people in here bring in that every missile system could be destroyed by PAD and AAD, I was just trying to prove that wrong..


Here we are talking about ABM so where does the cruise missile comes into the scenario? 





> May I know which ballistic Missile travels hypersonic at Terminal and Mid course? I am really unaware of it, it would be great, if you could Enlighten me On that..


That is very common knowledge. All most every ballistic missile fly hyper sonic in its terminal phases except very short ranged one. ICBM fly at a speed of Mach 25 in its terminal phase. Hypersonic means Mach 5. 

Just for example, Agni-II has a speed of 5 to 6 km/s ie means ~ Mach 18.

Agni (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




> Oops I missied out the word *Launched from* there, so sorry, I said, Its been tested to Intercept Missiles Launched from 4000-5000 away...



Its OK.



> Oh God,What I meant was This missile can perform the Task Of both AAD and PAD Missile....



No. It can do the task of PAD but not AAD. Because PAD and PDV are both exo-atmospheric (outside air) missiles while AAD is a endo-atmospheric (inside air) missile. 



> Iam sorry , I guess My posts have double meaning aswell.... Iam too old to come to Your generation, So I guess I must stop trying to post like Youths, Let this be a lesson for me...


Cool down dude. Its OK. We all do mistakes.


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## IndianArmy

Kinetic said:


> Here we are talking about ABM so where does the cruise missile comes into the scenario?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is very common knowledge. All most every ballistic missile fly hyper sonic in its terminal phases except very short ranged one. ICBM fly at a speed of Mach 25 in its terminal phase. Hypersonic means Mach 5.
> 
> Just for example, Agni-II has a speed of 5 to 6 km/s ie means ~ Mach 18.
> 
> Agni (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its OK.
> 
> 
> 
> No. It can do the task of PAD but not AAD. Because PAD and PDV are both exo-atmospheric (outside air) missiles while AAD is a endo-atmospheric (inside air) missile.
> 
> 
> Cool down dude. Its OK. We all do mistakes.



Thanks for correcting me Young man, I need to keep Updating myself...... Please follow me, and Do correct me where ever I am wrong, So that I can learn aswell.... But I still have doubt on PDV , Its compared to THAAD missile, When THAAD missile is both ENDO and Exo atmospheric , Wouldnt PDV be the same aswell, Or am I Wrong again? Iam so much Interested in knowing about missiles, if Only I would have done engineering I could have been in the strategic Missile Corp....


----------



## Kinetic

IndianArmy said:


> Thanks for correcting me Young man, I need to keep Updating myself...... Please follow me, and Do correct me where ever I am wrong, So that I can learn aswell.... But I still have doubt on PDV , Its compared to THAAD missile, When THAAD missile is both ENDO and Exo atmospheric , Wouldnt PDV be the same aswell, Or am I Wrong again? Iam so much Interested in knowing about missiles, if Only I would have done engineering I could have been in the strategic Missile Corp....



Sir, there are some differences between PDV and THAAD. PAD/PDV were not designed to intercept inside atmosphere. 

Though THAAD can intercept endo-atm targets the main endo-atm missile is PAC-3 just like AAD. But one disadvantage of PAC-3 is its maximum altitude is half that of AAD. That means AAD can cover entire atm area but not PAC-3. Thats why they need THAAD to cover higher tier of endo-atm ie between 15 km to 30 km altitude.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Kinetic said:


> For ACs we have Akash, SPYDER and future Barak-8 and SR-SAM.
> 
> When developing BMD they heavily considered these requirements needed to be a good ABM at current scenario. This was integral part of the development. The possible counter measures which the incoming ballistic missile may carry are...
> 
> 1) Decoys, balloons, anti-simulator decoys, radar decoys.
> 2) Wide maneuvers in its terminal phases.
> 
> Dr. Saraswat (Project Director Missile Defence, current DRDO chief) talked about this in Aero India 2009 seminar on Indian missle development.
> 
> YouTube - India's Missile Programme: Past, present & future by Dr. V.K. Saraswat 02 of 03 [audio fixed]
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why they are integrating all the systems radars (military, civilian and space based). The main advantage of 'No first use' policy is you can develop potential second strike capabilities, what India is doing.
> 
> They are not talking about one or two interceptors. India will deploy/launch four missiles for every Pakistani missile. According to Dr. Saraswat (Indian BMD programme chief) that will lead to 99.98% hit probability. Four missiles will try to destroy incoming ballistic missile at four different altitudes like 100 km+, ~50 km, ~25 km, ~15 km. If first one fails second one will take over, if second one fails third one will take over the job, if third one also fails than fourth one will do its job.
> 
> *There is no surety of any BMD but this will certainly increase probability of hit! But its 100% correct that a BMD has huge psychological effects. *



I was not talking abt countering ACwith sam iw saying it can be used to intercept missles also its gud to have ABMS but calling it near 1005 effective against all missles is wrong no one in the world can achieve 100% defence until a electro force field dome is cerated and that is styll a century away so yes it have a 100%physological effect but it will never be 100% effective


----------



## Kinetic

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> I was not talking abt countering ACwith sam iw saying it can be used to intercept missles also its gud to have ABMS but calling it near 1005 effective against all missles is wrong no one in the world can achieve 100&#37; defence until a electro force field dome is cerated and that is styll a century away so yes it have a 100%physological effect but it will never be 100% effective



He is not saying it is 100% effective but we are employing four missiles for every target ballistic. Probably two PDVs, two AADs. This will certainly increase the probability of hitting the target.

Missile defence is good but I think it has more psychological potential than real war.


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## xiantian

MBT Masai Barefoot TechnologyMBTShoesunique design, multi-level, the only cure is designed to simulate walking in sand 'similar to walking in the natural environment in Kenya Masai'. This creates a natural, uneven walking surfaces, and use of physical force and stability of the major muscle groups, training the body to move correctly.It has a positive effect on the whole body,help improve posture, reuce back pain, and alleviate joint pressure. New MBT Changa will be your best healthy life partner.


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## Mauryan

Kinetic said:


> Fourth [/B]PDV is a solid fueled version of PAD with IIR seeker. It is not a combination of PAD and AAD.



Hey guy,

Dont confuse or mislead others.I am responding for the second time to correct you regarding the same error.

PDV is a totally new missile and unrelated to PAD(which is a bare copy of prithvi TBM)
PDV more looks like Arrow-2 with a fatty booster stage and a sleeky longer second stage.Currently I am away from my home,else I would have created some friendly CAD drawings for review. HMRL achieved some breakthroughs in the design of high energy propellants.
Just get rid of that PDV an upgraded PAD conception from your mind.
Also,if you are luckky you can find the information on the dual mode seeker for PDV on the internet.{forget the solo IIR thingy for PDV)


----------



## Paksindhi

JAB PAKISTANI MISSILE AAY GA TUB PATA CHALE GA.


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## hal-fgfa

Paksindhi said:


> JAB PAKISTANI MISSILE AAY GA TUB PATA CHALE GA.



sahi hai buddy par use karo to jyada no me use karna ... brna tera kya hoga re ...........


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## shining eyes




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## Kinetic

Mauryan said:


> Hey guy,
> 
> Dont confuse or mislead others.I am responding for the second time to correct you regarding the same error.
> 
> PDV is a totally new missile and unrelated to PAD(which is a bare copy of prithvi TBM)
> PDV more looks like Arrow-2 with a fatty booster stage and a sleeky longer second stage.Currently I am away from my home,else I would have created some friendly CAD drawings for review. HMRL achieved some breakthroughs in the design of high energy propellants.
> Just get rid of that PDV an upgraded PAD conception from your mind.
> Also,if you are luckky you can find the information on the dual mode seeker for PDV on the internet.{forget the solo IIR thingy for PDV)





I think you understand that people will believe in a source rather than your words. I have shown my source directly from Dr. Saraswat's interview here...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...-advanced-shipboard-weapons-6.html#post849860

But you don't believe media!!!! You believe only what you think, that something strange!!

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## Paksindhi

hal-fgfa said:


> sahi hai buddy par use karo to jyada no me use karna ... brna tera kya hoga re ...........



You won't get the chance to count them.... rest in peace


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## hal-fgfa

Paksindhi said:


> You won't get the chance to count them.... rest in peace



ha ho sakta hai ...cause only pakistan have missiles india have nothing

or barak 2, s300, akash sam, pad, aad (in future barak 8, s400, inmproved akash ) kya kar lenge 

i think india ke pass ek bhi missile nahi hai tabhi to pakistan no need any sam ???? right


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## Abu Zolfiqar

yaar u capitalize ''I'' in india but dont capitalize 'P' in Pakistan....


common!!!!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Kinetic said:


> BMs are costly to produce. Pakistan must not have 'huge' inventory, neither has India, check it again. Just for example: IAF getting get 250 Akash missiles in two years time. As far as I remember India is establishing production line to build 200 AAD missiles and ~35 Prithvi or say PAD missiles per year. Currently India can build ~10 Agni-II per year.



sources to back your claims would be nice


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## Kinetic

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> sources to back your claims would be nice



Akash order placed in 2008/09....

"He told journalists here during his visit to the various defence public sector undertaking and defence research organisations in Bangalore that the Defence Acquisition Committee had decided to buy the Akash missiles as the IAF was satisfied with their performance and had already inducted them for two squadrons (250 missile systems). "

The Hindu : News / National : IAF to procure more Tejas aircraft and Akash missiles: Antony

AAD missile: It was from a three years old interview of DRDO chief. Forgot where read that.

Prithvi: India had production capacity of 3-4 Prithvi per month in 2000. But it was not ultilise the full production capacity because the Army didn't need so many missiles at one or even couldn't afford them. That makes 36-48 per year. But now it is 2010. 

Prithvi - India Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems

Agni: Sorry it was 12 per year capacity in early 2000 and now it is 18 per year. 

Agni-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Agnostic_Indian

Will the new k series replace prithvi's in pdv ?
what kind of missiles are used in AAD ?


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## Vajra_Yuddh

The only 2 countries having ballistic missiles capable of performing evasion counter-measures after re-entry are US and Russia with their Minuteman-III and Topol-M series missiles. Not even China, France or we have that capability yet.

So of anyone has some evidence of having ABM-proof developed missiles, please come up with it than a wild guess.

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## ralphleo

This is so hilarious! Now lets get some things in perspective

1) India has decided to build a BMD.....bold step....just think ....a seemingly develping emerging giant is now trying to out do western world in the most sophisticated of technologies.....give credit for this move and stop disparing the efforts.

2) Guys why do you think Pakistan will launch 200 missiles on India ever? It won't happen primarily because no matter how insane a person may be....he will not kill a billion folks....because so much of nusear waste will kill all pakistanis due to radiation and the global environmental impact on it will create havoc...so no body will allow Pakistan to commit a blunder....in my opinion Pakistan will never do it even if it is free to do so.

3) What can happen is this....Pakistan launches a tactical nuke on advancing Indian columns.....this was what initial doctrine was.....but it is no longer valid.....WHY? because India no longer thinks about capturing Karachi or Islamabad.....the Cold start doctrine just says....rapid thrust into enemy territory...grab 40-50 kms of land and stop....no one's survival is at stake...Intl. community will stop the war by then.

4) THE ONLY REASON WHY INDIA IS DEVELOPING A BMD......if a nuke is launched by a rogue general or if some Terrorists group get their hands on launch codes etc....in effect JUST INCASE A NUKE IS LAUNCHED....India should have SOME REASONABLE ASSURANCE of intercepting it.....nobody is thinking about stopping 100 nukes.

Grow up guys....India and Pak will never confront each other in an all out war! India doesn't want it and Pak cannot afford it...infact the way I see things...both Pseleiberatak and India can have a Kargil like scenario where there is a limited war in Kashmir.

Finally........just think yaar....lets get over with this mutual paranoia and try to develop economically. India has taken some steps but is still obsessed with external threats just like Pak. Stop thinking about nuking each other.

My 2 cents!

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## airuah

^^ who is getting your 2 cents bro???....

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## ridoking

suleman yousaf said:


> Greeting to all the viewers of this thread.I just want information that are our ballistic missiles effective against their PAD and AAD?Can they evade them?I would like everyone veiws.Please please please no nationalist verbal fighting.I welcome all comments,views and theories.


 
there is no way to intercept ballastic missile especially in terminal phase 

the most advanced system for such mission is combination of PAC3 and THAAD 

THAAD depend purely on HIT TO KILL TECHNOLOGY has NO WARHEAD but kill vehicle has very advanced seekers depend on kinetic energy to INTERCEPT the warheads exoatmosphere its effectiveness against BMs is not known so far but the disadvantages of such systems in exoatmosphere interception it can't differentiate between decoys and warheads due to absence of gravity 


PAC3 depend partially on HIT TO KILL TECHNOLOGY due to it use small warhead not highly fragmentation warhead like THE FAILURE PAC2 BUT the negatives of such system is the limiting time and if the attacker use very advanced decoys and if the attacker increase the speed of missile in the terminal phase and add maneuver to warheads of the missile

ALLAH ONLY KNOW


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## TalkToMe:D

ridoking said:


> there is no way to intercept ballastic missile especially in terminal phase
> 
> the most advanced system for such mission is combination of PAC3 and THAAD
> 
> THAAD depend purely on HIT TO KILL TECHNOLOGY has NO WARHEAD but kill vehicle has very advanced seekers depend on kinetic energy to INTERCEPT the warheads exoatmosphere its effectiveness against BMs is not known so far but the disadvantages of such systems in exoatmosphere interception it can't differentiate between decoys and warheads due to absence of gravity
> 
> 
> PAC3 depend partially on HIT TO KILL TECHNOLOGY due to it use small warhead not highly fragmentation warhead like THE FAILURE PAC2 BUT the negatives of such system is the limiting time and if the attacker use very advanced decoys and if the attacker increase the speed of missile in the terminal phase and add maneuver to warheads of the missile
> 
> ALLAH ONLY KNOW



Indian current ballistic missile defence system is Terminal phase interceptor, more over such a concept is not new , the soviet in the past have installed nuclear warhead in their SAMs in case the have to counter a nuclear attack,assuming destruction of nuclear warhead above the atmosphere as a better bet then warheads hitting the target. Not much information is available in open source to decide how effective a ballistic missile technology can be, but one thing to note is scientists and defence organisations have more brains then you and me here, and if they have installed a system then they are not fool to install a million dollar junk.

Even if ballistic missile defence system is not immune to failure, it can make a psychological effect upon enemy, considering enemy have limited nuclear warheads, the enemy will have to dispatch multiple launch to expect a hit, which otherwise would have been done with a single missile,ultimately effecting enemies stockpile, and in case enemies missiles are intercepted things can be counter productive.

Enemy wont attack a city protected by ballistic missile defence system with a single or a few missiles which the enemy would have done otherwise.

verdict: The real boys have better brain and sense then us the armchair warriors. We cannot make a conclusion that a ballistic missile defence systems is credible or not, something which we general public have no excess to information.

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## Mysterious

suleman yousaf said:


> Greeting to all the viewers of this thread.I just want information that are our ballistic missiles effective against their PAD and AAD?Can they evade them?I would like everyone veiws.Please please please no nationalist verbal fighting.I welcome all comments,views and theories.


 
India on way to joining exclusive BMD club - India - The Times of India

this will clear your doubt in single shot.....but this news dates back to year 2007


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## Storm Force

The indians will probably spend $10 billion plus on abm DEFENSE.

i think its safe to assume that THEY WILL HAVE DONE THEIR HOME WORK and established that the system ACTUALLY WORKS.

it may only stop 50% BUT it gives india great deterrance nevertheless...


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