# Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.



## Kompromat

*TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says Pakistan and Jordan are already Evaluating T-129 ATAK. *

News source:

DATE:01/10/09
SOURCE:Flight International
ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success 
By Luca Peruzzi







Programme officials from the ATAK development team have provided further details of Turkey's T129 attack helicopter programme, as its first prototype has completed its debut flight.

Conducted at AgustaWestland's Vergiate facility in Italy on 28 September, the milestone event involved aircraft P1, the first of five prototypes to be produced under the Turkish Aerospace Industries-led programme.

Powered by LHTEC T800A-4 engines, the aircraft is one of three T129s to be built in a basic configuration, with the others to enter final assembly at Vergiate in March and July 2010, respectively.

Kits for the programme's two so-called Turkey Unique Configuration prototypes will be delivered to TAI in April and August 2010. These production-standard airframes will undergo assembly, integration, test and trials in Turkey.

Critical design reviews for both aircraft versions will be concluded in the second quarter of next year, and all five prototypes should fly by mid-2011. "The joint programme is on time, cost and scheduled programme achievements," says AgustaWestland chief executive Giuseppe Orsi.

Turkey has ordered 50 production T129s and has options on another 41. The aircraft will be equipped with Turkish-made systems including electronics, forward-looking infrared sensor, cockpit avionics and mission computer from Aselsan, and weapon systems from Roketsan.

*TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says the first T129 ATAK will be handed over to the Turkish armed forces in the third quarter of 2013. Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.*

Source link:ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
Turkey Presses Ahead with its Attack Helicopter Project - The Jamestown Foundation

" The helicopter program is seen as one of the flagship projects for Turkey's flourishing defense industry, as it will involve not only the transfer of advanced technology, but also the integration of various domestically developed weapons and communications systems. Moreover, since Turkey's TAI will have the exclusive rights to market and sell the final product worldwide, the project is particularly attractive for Turkey. Through this and other ambitious national weapons programs, it aims to emerge as a major player in the global arms industry. *Pakistan, Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have reportedly expressed their interest in purchasing the T-129 (Anadolu Ajansi, September 25)*. "





*My photoshop Image for you guys depicting our Next generation Attack Helicopter Inshallah in Pakistan colors and this Image is dedicated to my Turkish Brother Cabatli 53 for his Great help and dedication.*



Regards:

Black Blood.

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## Kompromat



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## Mercenary

Good News....

US has stopped making Cobra Gunships and Apache are too expensive.

I think Pakistan should go for these Gunships.

I think we should buy 10-20 of these machines and buy 30-40 in parts and assemble them in Pakistan and get turkey to give us TOT and build them in Pakistan.

Long Live Pak-Turkey Friendship

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

80 of the T-129 would be sufficent for Pakistan's anti terrorist efforts

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## navtrek

View attachment 122985d75f8a490b75fd3dcb5163ff2d.jpg

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## Kompromat

where the heck is cabatli

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## Barrett

What happened to the Tiger deal ?


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## Kompromat

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Should we call this Turkish SuperCobra?



I think if we got em we will call them T-129 Hamza

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## Kompromat

Barrett said:


> What happened to the Tiger deal ?



No news as yet but i personally think that Euros are not going to give us any TOT where is TOT option ( According to Cabatli53 ) with ATAK and UTMAS Missiles for Burraq and ATAK is a too good option for Pakistan Army to Resist

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## Kompromat



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## Kompromat



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## Kompromat

*T129 ATAK Cockpit and Avionics*

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## Barrett

Black blood said:


> No news as yet but i personally think that Euros are not going to give us any TOT where is TOT option ( According to Cabatli53 ) with ATAK and UTMAS Missiles for Burraq and ATAK is a too good option for Pakistan Army to Resist



It sure is a very good option but depends on the price tag it is offered with. Another good option from a very reliable source is the Chinese Z-10

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## Kompromat



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## Kompromat

Barrett said:


> It sure is a very good option but depends on the price tag it is offered with. Another good option from a very reliable source is the* Chinese Z-10*



Unfortunately Z-10 has been or will be abandoned

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## Barrett



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## mjnaushad

Its good news. But it would be better if we start our own program for choppers. Buying these machines now is need of Pakistan. But we should plan to build our own chopper for future.

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## Frankenstein

this machine is a master piece


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## Kompromat

mjnaushad said:


> Its good news. But it would be better if we start our own program for choppers. Buying these machines now is need of Pakistan. *But we should plan to build our own chopper for future*.



Sir this bird will come with TOT so it means we will be making our own soon!!

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## nightrider_saulat

indeed it's good decision by PA 
and i always have prefered this chopper over other chinese gunshiups
and euro tiger in terms of cost and performance


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## Super Falcon

still PA havent make any sufficient steps to buy it but seems like copy of tiger helicopter


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## Myth_buster_1

Super Falcon said:


> still PA havent make any sufficient steps to buy it but seems like copy of tiger helicopter



thanks for your in depth analysis of the subject. you seem to have summed it all up in one punch line. 

Tiger is developed by eurocopter
T-129 is a joint developed by Agusta (designed AW-129) and TAI (Turkish indigenous systems). 

the only similarities i see between these two choppers is that they both have 4 blade main rotors, tail rotor, a fuselage with 2 seats, 4 pylons for ATGM, Rockets, A2A and A2G missiles and not to forget a main gun in the front.

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## Kompromat

@ Growler

sir thanks for explanation .. I was just wondring if it has the feature like apache longbow which allows pilot HMD to join with the main gun simply means the gun moves where ever the pilot looks so he may shoot instantly.. Any ideas?

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## Myth_buster_1

Black blood said:


> @ Growler
> 
> sir thanks for explanation .. I was just wondring if it has the feature like apache longbow which allows pilot HMD to join with the main gun simply means the gun moves where ever the pilot looks so he may shoot instantly.. Any ideas?


T-129 turkish indigenous HMD

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## Super Falcon

Growler said:


> thanks for your in depth analysis of the subject. you seem to have summed it all up in one punch line.
> 
> Tiger is developed by eurocopter
> T-129 is a joint developed by Agusta (designed AW-129) and TAI (Turkish indigenous systems).
> 
> the only similarities i see between these two choppers is that they both have 4 blade main rotors, tail rotor, a fuselage with 2 seats, 4 pylons for ATGM, Rockets, A2A and A2G missiles and not to forget a main gun in the front.




Atleast once in your life time u agreed with me any way thankx for ur kindness showed on me thanks alot 

any way ATAK is good option for us we need something from europe to with mixed chinese gunships it willl defiatelly help us not in only against taliban but also any agressor such as india atleast pakistan has to build two seprate ARMY airwings both have atleast 30 helicopters each to counter indian threat from lands of punjab and desert of sindh and in desert they willl be good becoz indian tanks will not move very smoothly in desert specially arjun dont know about T 90


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://

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## Kompromat

I am just waiting for cabatli to come...


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## Kompromat

Thanks for the video Super Falcon the Bird looks great to me.

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## Super Falcon

what is canatli sir can u tell me what is the meaning of this word. and thanx for appritiation to me


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## Kompromat

Super Falcon said:


> what is canatli sir can u tell me what is the meaning of this word. and thanx for appritiation to me



you are welcome..

Cabatli is our Turkish member and maybe the one with a hell alot of knowldge about t129 he can twist this thread to a new level.

I dono where the heck is he either busy or tooo lazy

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## Chanakyaa

WoW this will be Certainly Gr8 Pick for Pakistan.
The Machine is a Monster!

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## Super Falcon

Black blood said:


> you are welcome..
> 
> Cabatli is our Turkish member and maybe the one with a hell alot of knowldge about t129 he can twist this thread to a new level.
> 
> I dono where the heck is he either busy or tooo lazy



Than what he is waitting for why not twist this thread to high level on T 129 Atak Atak Means attack am i right in turkish


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## turk1453

where are you cabatli? cabatli nerdesin. anlad&#305;g&#305;m kadar&#305;yla herkes senin yorumunu bekliyor. bende o kadar yabanc&#305; dil yok. gerekli cevaplar&#305; senverirsin


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## Super Falcon

we dont get it what you r saying sir noone here understand ur cabati


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## Barrett

Super Falcon said:


> we dont get it what you r saying sir noone here understand ur cabati



Cabatli is a helicopter that TAI ( Turkish Aerospace Industries) has been working on since the past 15 years now, it is the same size as the Apache but with twice the speed and capable of carrying twice the load and the most advance weapons out there, and they will be giving 10 of those to Pakistan free of cost as a good will gesture.
Just kidding, Cabatli is the name of a Turkish member on this forum, 'Blackblood' awaits him so that he can share from his knowledge over the subject.

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## Super Falcon

Program officials from the model ATAK development team has provided more details in Turkey T129 attack helicopter program, as in the first sample completed the first flight. 

Conducted in the AgustaWestland facility in Vergiate in Italy on 28 September, an important event involved planes P1, the first of five models to be produced in the framework of Turkish Aerospace Industries, led by the program. 

Powered by LHTEC T800A - 4 engines is one of the three T129s will be built in basic configuration, with others to engage in Vergiate final assembly in March and July 2010 respectively. 

Groups for this program and are the so-called Turkey configured models unique and will be delivered to Tai in April and August 2010. This standard production airframes will undergo assembly, integration, testing and trials in Turkey. 

And will review the critical design aircraft for both versions concluded in the second quarter of next year, and all five models should fly by mid-2011. "The joint program is at the time and cost and achievements of the scheduled program," says AgustaWestland CEO Giuseppe Orsi. 

Turkey has ordered 50 T129s production and has options on another 41. The aircraft will be equipped with a Turkish-made systems, including the electronics, and forward-looking infrared sensors, and cockpit avionics mission computer Aselsan, and weapon systems of Roketsan. 

Tai, the director in January Dortkasli says the first T129 ATAK model will be handed over to the Turkish armed forces in the third quarter of 2013. Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales to design, and industry sources say many of the countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan. 

Source link: model group Attac outlines progress in Turkey T129 project, after the success of the first flight 
Turkey presses forward in the helicopter attack - and the Jamestown Foundation 

"The program helicopter is one of the main projects for Turkey's defense industry boom, and would include not only the transfer of advanced technology, but also to integrate the various arms of locally-developed communications systems. Moreover, because Turkey will have to Tai exclusive rights to market and sell the final product in all around the world, this project is particularly attractive for Turkey. Through these and other weapons programs, and ambitious national, it aims to come out as a major player in the global arms industry. Pakistan Malaysia and United Arab Emirates. UAE, Jordan, reportedly expressed interest in buying the T-129 (Anatolia Ajans&#305; 25 September








TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says Pakistan and Jordan are already Evaluating t-129 ATAK. 

News source:

DATE: 01/10/09
SOURCE: Flight International
ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success 
By Luca Peruzzi


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## Super Falcon

well pakistan will buy it for sure nowT 129 will be seen in PA colours soon INSHAHALLAH


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## Super Falcon

Army seeks to 20 SuperCobra helicopters from the United States 

Amin Ahmed 
Thursday, December 31st, 2009 

Pakistan currently has 32 helicopters Cobra Offensive 

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani military said it is likely that the United States has been seeking foreign military financing (FMF) for 20 SuperCobra helicopters to its fleet of helicopters, assault rifles Cobra Aging, which is being used widely in operations against terrorists in the tribal areas. 

In accordance with assistance strategy Pakistan Report published by the U.S. State Department, said the army intended to get helicopters SuperCobra. Helicopters and alone, he said, would cost at least $ 500 million, and the acquisition of the total cost up to $ 1 billion. 

The report says that SuperCobra attack helicopters will be available for foreign clients until 2015. Equip the army with a helicopter of this type earlier in 2015 will require either increased production or diversion of U.S. Marines. 

The report says that Pakistan It is likely to maintain the current force of helicopters Cobra , Supplemented by armed Bell 412 aircraft. Pakistan Currently has 32 helicopters Cobra Offensive. Sustainability of the current fleet of helicopters is difficult but possible through commercial channels. 

However, the Government of the United States currently spends $ 75 million Pakistan Counter-insurgency funds to update the part of the existing fleet of Cobra. 

Pakistan's army has received two squadrons of aircraft Cobra Since 1983, later upgraded with the 'C Nate thermal imaging' package. 

DAWN.COM | Front Page | Army to seek 20 SuperCobra helicopters from the United States




Army to seek 20 SuperCobra helicopters from US 

By Amin Ahmed 
Thursday, 31 Dec, 2009

Pakistan currently has 32 Cobra attack helicopters

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army is likely to seek US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) to acquire 20 SuperCobra helicopters to reinforce its fleet of ageing Cobra attack helicopters, which are being extensively used in operations against terrorists in tribal regions. 

According to the Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report published by the US State Department, the army envisions acquiring the SuperCobra helicopters. The helicopters alone, it said, would cost at least $ 500 million and the total acquisition would cost up to $ 1 billion. 

The report says that SuperCobra attack helicopters will not be available for foreign customers till 2015. Equipping the army with such helicopters earlier than 2015 will require either increased production or their diversion from the US Marine Corps. 

The report says that Pakistan is likely to maintain its current force of Cobra helicopters, supplemented by armed Bell 412 aircraft. Pakistan currently has 32 Cobra attack helicopters. The sustainability of the current fleet of the helicopters is difficult but possible through commercial channels. 

However, the US government is currently spending $ 75 million from the Pakistan Counter-insurgency Funds to update a portion of the existing Cobra fleet. 

Pakistan army has received two squadrons of Cobras since 1983, later upgraded with the 'C-NITE thermal imaging' package.


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## Super Falcon

Pakistan currently has 32 helicopters Cobra Offensive 

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani military said it is likely that the United States has been seeking foreign military financing (FMF) for 20 SuperCobra helicopters to its fleet of helicopters, assault rifles Cobra Aging, which is being used widely in operations against terrorists in the tribal areas. 

In accordance with assistance strategy Pakistan Report published by the U.S. State Department, said the army intended to get helicopters SuperCobra. Helicopters and alone, he said, would cost at least $ 500 million, and the acquisition of the total cost up to $ 1 billion. 

The report says that SuperCobra attack helicopters will be available for foreign clients until 2015. Equip the army with a helicopter of this type earlier in 2015 will require either increased production or diversion of U.S. Marines. 

The report says that Pakistan It is likely to maintain the current force of helicopters Cobra , Supplemented by armed Bell 412 aircraft. Pakistan Currently has 32 helicopters Cobra Offensive. Sustainability of the current fleet of helicopters is difficult but possible through commercial channels. 

However, the Government of the United States currently spends $ 75 million Pakistan Counter-insurgency funds to update the part of the existing fleet of Cobra. 

Pakistan's army has received two squadrons of aircraft Cobra Since 1983, later upgraded with the 'C Nate thermal imaging' package. 

DAWN.COM | Front Page | Army to seek 20 SuperCobra helicopters from the United States




Army to seek 20 SuperCobra helicopters from US 

By Amin Ahmed 
Thursday, 31 Dec, 2009

Pakistan currently has 32 Cobra attack helicopters

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army is likely to seek US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) to acquire 20 SuperCobra helicopters to reinforce its fleet of ageing Cobra attack helicopters, which are being extensively used in operations against terrorists in tribal regions. 

According to the Pakistan Assistance Strategy Report published by the US State Department, the army envisions acquiring the SuperCobra helicopters. The helicopters alone, it said, would cost at least $ 500 million and the total acquisition would cost up to $ 1 billion. 

The report says that SuperCobra attack helicopters will not be available for foreign customers till 2015. Equipping the army with such helicopters earlier than 2015 will require either increased production or their diversion from the US Marine Corps. 

The report says that Pakistan is likely to maintain its current force of Cobra helicopters, supplemented by armed Bell 412 aircraft. Pakistan currently has 32 Cobra attack helicopters. The sustainability of the current fleet of the helicopters is difficult but possible through commercial channels. 

However, the US government is currently spending $ 75 million from the Pakistan Counter-insurgency Funds to update a portion of the existing Cobra fleet. 

Pakistan army has received two squadrons of Cobras since 1983, later upgraded with the 'C-NITE


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## cabatli_53

Hello Brothers... 

Thnaks for your great news BlackBlood brother... In future, We are going to see P-129's in Pakstan Land forces inventory indeed... 


Addition information about T-129:

It is also reported that Undesecretariat of Turkish defence industry officials have offically visited Jordan to talk about T-129 Atak and Requirements of Jordan military... I mean Those news and sources are reflecting completely truths...


and It is also reported that *Indian officials* are also evaluating to order some T-129 Atak... It must be a politic move of Indian authorities against Pakistan... 


Regards...

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## Kompromat

cabatli_53 said:


> Hello Brothers...
> 
> Thnaks for your great news BlackBlood brother... In future, We are going to see P-129's in Pakstan Land forces inventory indeed...
> 
> 
> Addition information about T-129:
> 
> It is also reported that Undesecretariat of Turkish defence industry officials have offically visited Jordan to talk about T-129 Atak and Requirements of Jordan military... I mean Those news and sources are reflecting completely truths...
> 
> 
> *and It is also reported that Indian officials are also evaluating to order some T-129 Atak... It must be a politic move of Indian authorities against Pakistan... *
> 
> 
> Regards...




Haha , I think they have not learned any lessons from the Naval guns refusal from Turkey

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## Kompromat

Thanks for joining us Cabatli , I have been waiting for you , now what i expect you is to answer some of the questions about ATAK.

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## Super Falcon

india want to buy atak it must be the joke as a friend can turkey sell this to india cabati can u naswer

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## cabatli_53

Black blood said:


> Thanks for joining us Cabatli , I have been waiting for you , now what i expect you is to answer some of the questions about ATAK.




Brother, Which questions must I answer about Atak?



Super Falcon said:


> india want to buy atak it must be the joke as a friend can turkey sell this to india cabati can u naswer



Bro, We have also disscussed this subject with my Turkish forumers.. 

The Results...

1- Reject the offers of Indians directly cause of Pakistani brothers
2- Ask Pakistani officials whether T-129 shoud be exported or not...
3- Anothers told that We should export some T-129's to India with Turkish source-codes, Then, We must give those source-codes to Pakistani officials to chance T-129's a flying tin at a possible conflict...  


Whichone Do you prefer bro ?

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## cabatli_53

Full introduction Video (3D)

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## TOPGUN

We need this beast for sure asap.


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## Kompromat

cabatli_53 said:


> Brother, Which questions must I answer about Atak?
> 
> 
> 
> Bro, We have also disscussed this subject with my Turkish forumers..
> 
> The Results...
> 
> 1- Reject the offers of Indians directly cause of Pakistani brothers
> 2- Ask Pakistani officials whether T-129 shoud be exported or not...
> 3- Anothers told that We should export some T-129's to India with Turkish source-codes, Then, We must give those source-codes to Pakistani officials to chance T-129's a flying tin at a possible conflict...
> 
> 
> Whichone Do you prefer bro ?



Bro you know what we would like you to do..same what you did with those naval guns

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## DaRk WaVe

cabatli_53 said:


> Full introduction Video (3D)
> DYm3aCXVY4Y[/media] - Turkish T-129 Atak Introduction Video



at 2:34 there are air to air missiles, will you tell me more about these AAMs on T-129


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## Super Falcon

i think our ministry of defence already in talks with turkey to get these babies out of jaill for pakistan INSHAHALLAH and we are getting it for sure but how much around 30 will be great whay anti armour missile it uses hell fire or tow which is effective


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## TaimiKhan

emo_girl said:


> at 2:34 there are air to air missiles, will you tell me more about these AAMs on T-129



It can either carry AIM Stinger Missiles (the air2air configuration one), other European a2a missiles and the AIM-9 series A2A missiles. 

It can even get any A2A missile as per customer request, if Turkish manufacturers can integrate it into the FCS & radar.

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## Super Falcon

what about anti armour missiles and anti gorund missiles sir


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## Muhammad Arif

very nice helecopter


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bad news for CHOLOS.


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## cabatli_53

Main Anti-Armour Missiles of T-129 Atak

Lock-on before and after launch 
Can be used in day or night and in adverse weather conditions 
Tandem warhead, effective against reactive armors 
Insensitive munition characteristics against liquid fuel fire and bullet hits 
Communication of seeker image to the user and command by user using Data Link. 


UMTAS Long Range missiles with Roketsan Smart Launchers...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hey cobalti can i order a atak? i wanna kill some people HOLLYWOOD STYLE.
And we will chose OPTION 3 >codes and stuff.We dont want to damge the good currency comin to TURKEYE LOVE TURKEYE

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## cabatli_53

2.75 Inch Anti-personnel or armour laser guided missiles "Cirit" for T-129 Atak

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## Kompromat

Thanks cabatli now real picture of atak is clearing in my mind and i hope in my other friends mind too. That is why i was waiting for you to join me in my thread. 

Now i would like to know about its avionics and electronics , countermessures.

Also please explain HMD and other pilot utilities.

Thanks again brother.


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## cabatli_53

Black blood said:


> Thanks cabatli now real picture of atak is clearing in my mind and i hope in my other friends mind too. That is why i was waiting for you to join me in my thread.
> 
> Now i would like to know about its avionics and electronics , countermessures.
> 
> Also please explain HMD and other pilot utilities.
> 
> Thanks again brother.




Ok Brother...

Aselsan-Roketsan Mission computer (The most critical part of T-129 Atak) and Spike Test Launches with this mission computer...

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## cabatli_53

RAM Material and Paints for T-129 Atak...

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## cabatli_53

*ATLAS Avionics Moving Map Software, Ayesas*

AYESA&#350; developed DO-178B certifiable Atlas Avionics Moving Map and DO-200A compliant Map Preparation Software for fixed wing and rotary wing aircrafts. The moving map architecture is designed to be fully extensible for:

* Raster Image Support (VFR, IFR, Approach Charts, Topographic Maps, Aerial Imagery etc)
* ARINC 424 Navigation Layer
* Geographic Layers (Vectoral and Terrain)
* Flight Plan Support
* 2D / 3D Rendering
* Slope Shading
* Line of Sight (LOS) capability
* Vertical Profile Display
* 3D TAWS Rendering 





Meteksan-*T-129 Millimeter Wave Radar for Ground Target Engagement (MMWR)*

General System Features:
 Ka band millimetre wave radar
* 8 km range, precise azimuth and range resolution*
 Multi function system:
 Pulse Doppler Mode,
 Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode,
 Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR) mode,
 Terrain Profiling mode.
 Detection of stationary and moving targets on land and in the air
 Target classification
 Target tracking and weapons engagement
 SAR/ISAR image generation
 Terrain profiling to allow safe navigation
 National system-algorithm design, national software and hardware development.

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## cabatli_53

*Meteksan T-129, Obstacle Detection System*












*Aselsan MFD 268E Multi Function Display*

Every cockpit will have two of them...

General Specifications
- Display FLIR or map video, EFIS, targeting or navigation data using internal symbol generator and software
- Combines graphics and video using split screen, windows, or overlays
- High resolution
- High luminance
- Wide viewing angle
- Wide dimming range
- Bus programmable
- NVIS Class A and B compatible
- Easy to integrate
- Compact design

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## cabatli_53

-T-129 Atak Electronic warfare self-protection System (ASES);

ASES incorporates the following sub-systems:
*&#8226; Central Management Unit (CMU)
&#8226; Cockpit Control and Display Unit (CCDU)
&#8226; Memory Loading Unit (MLU)
&#8226; Missile Warning System (MWS)
&#8226; Radar Warning Receiver (RWR)
&#8226; Counter Measures Dispensing System (CMDS).*

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## cabatli_53

*ASELSAN Software Defined Radios (SDRs)* for T-129

*V/UHF*
Frequency range : 30-512 MHz
Preset channels : 1300
Power output : Manpack 10W , Vehicular 10/50W
COMSEC/TRANSEC : 5 different - internal crypto, frequency hopping and burst transmission, TDMA/DSSS and adaptive filtering
Data communication : ITU-T V.24/V.28 and Ethernet data interface @ WBNR (Wide Band Networking Radio) (225-400MHz) mode: synchronous data max 64 kbits/s full-duplex, asynchronous data max 38.4 kbits/s full-duplex, X.25 packet data max 9.6 kbits/s, (PVC or SVC), IP packet data; @ A-CNR (Advanced CNR) (30-512 MHz) mode: synchronous data max 16 kbits/s half-duplex, asynchronous data max 4.8 kbits/s half-duplex, max 19.2 kbits/s over Ethernet interface, SMS operation code (burst) transmission


*HF*
Frequency range : 0.1-2 MHz receive only, 2-30 MHz TX/RX
Preset channels : 300
Power output : Manpack 20W, Vehicular 100W, Base Station 100W/400W/1KW
COMSEC/TRANSEC : Internal crypto, Frequency Hopping
Data communication : STANAG-4539 (3200 to 9600 bps), STANAG 4285 ( 75 to 2400 bps coded PSK, 1200 to 3600 uncoded PSK), STANAG 5066 (compatible), SMS (Short Message Service)

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## cabatli_53

*GRC-5218 Band III+ 8 Mbps Frequency Hopping Radio Link*

GRC-5218 is a new radio link system developed to provide secure and reliable C4ISR networks in 21st centurys battlefield environment.
GRC-5218 offers the latest ECCM features in order to overcome todays advanced electronic warfare threats.
State-of-the-art ECCM features of the GRC-5218 are:
 Full Band Frequency Hopping at 8.448 Mbps (E2) and 2.048 Mbps (E1)
 Built in Frequency Diversity
 Automatic Frequency Escape (AFE) Function in frequency hopping mode without any link failure
 Automatic Power Control (APC)
 Two-level Forward Error Correction (FEC)
GRC-5218 can operate both in Frequency Hopping (FH) and Fixed Frequency (FF) mode. GRC-5218 provides network centric wireless LOS solutions in tactical area with efficient co-site and collocation properties. A frequency planning tool is also available for operations of sophisticated and dense network architecture.
GRC-5218 has both local and remote control capabilities. Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Version 3 and web-based system control is supported for remote control operations. An easy-to-use on-board (LCD/Keypad) and a PC driven web based user interface are available for local control of the equipment.
GRC-5218 is designed as a single compact, rugged and waterproof unit. That makes it suitable to be operated in indoor and outdoor environment.

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## cabatli_53

*Avci* T-129 Helmet Mounted Display System

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## cabatli_53

*ASELSAN ASELFLIR-300T Airborne FLIR, T-129*

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## cabatli_53

*Development of Turkish Thermal detector technologies for IR-IIr guided missiles and Flir systems...*

*It must be noted that Aselsan-OTDU have managed to develop QWIR detector technologies in 2009. Only some special latest generation Flir systems have QWIR technologies.

and Only 5 institues have QWIR IR detector technologies in World. Aslelsan-Odtu are also one of them...*









IR Cooler

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## cabatli_53

Anti-Tank Missiles Hand Control joystick

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## cabatli_53

MFD Screen interfaces...

















-----------------

Comparison of AH-1W with T-129...







Final Cockpit Design

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## Kompromat

*Thanks Cabatli indeed this post is highly informative , Now Superfalcon will understand why i have been waiting for Cabatli to come 

Brother tell me about its Communication capabilities to communicate with other birds in the sky and to the ground stations and vehicles .

Thanks again.*

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## cabatli_53

Bro, Communication ranges of Aselsan radios are not known but It is certain that All those "Software defined and frequence hopping radios" are safe technologies and have been using operationally many years by Turkish army. 

Pakistan army is also using Aselsan Software defined Radios...  and Aselsan has exported 6000 a different kind of radios to USA too...

T-129's will perform their missions under the network centric warfare environment so We attach importance to source-codes and softwares. I mean Battlefield Data collectors such as Infantry troops, AEW&C aircrafts, UAV's and mission coordination center will always direct T-129's and send lots of datas such as cordinations, Pictures, Videos to T-129's in order to perform a successful mission in battlefield.

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## Barrett

Cabatli, ben sana saverioum for all the information.

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## cabatli_53

HMDS Avci will provide pilots,

Optical sight of targets
Flight Datas
MFD Secreens
Night Vision
Movement of electro optic sensors with pilot' head moves
Movement capabilities of 20mm gun and firing targets with head moves
Firing capability without seeing
Communication

All in one !!!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

cabatli_53 said:


> *Development of Turkish Thermal detector technologies for IR-IIr guided missiles and Flir systems...*
> 
> *It must be noted that Aselsan-OTDU have managed to develop QWIR detector technologies in 2009. Only some special latest generation Flir systems have QWIR technologies.
> 
> and Only 5 institues have QWIR IR detector technologies in World. Aslelsan-Odtu are also one of them...*



I am AMAZED.

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## nightrider_saulat

cabatli_53 said:


> HMDS Avci will provide pilots,
> 
> Optical sight of targets
> Flight Datas
> MFD Secreens
> Night Vision
> Movement of electro optic sensors with pilot' head moves
> Movement capabilities of 20mm gun and firing targets with head moves
> Firing capability without seeing
> Communication
> 
> All in one !!!


thanks cabatli you deserves such appreciations

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## Kompromat

nightrider_saulat said:


> thanks cabatli you deserves such appreciations



And how about me

I am jealous with you cabatli bro

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## nightrider_saulat

Black blood said:


> And how about me
> 
> I am jealous with you cabatli bro



sorry sorry yes too deserves lol

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## cabatli_53

Roketsan Testing Insensitive properties of Cirit rocket motor.

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## Kompromat

nightrider_saulat said:


> sorry sorry yes too deserves lol



Good man


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## Kompromat

*Cabatli brother this is specially dedicated to you by me.*

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## Super Falcon

hahahahahahahahahahahhah cabati jealous hahahahahahhaha


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## kakat

This helicopter has been designed by Turkey as much as the F 35 has.

Non of it has been designed by Turkey, they just helped fund it and it is going to be assembled in Turkey in kit form. Why do you guys think it was made by Turkey?


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## Torquenut

I seem to miss one little thing in this forum. FUNDING for this new helicopter? If it will be funded as per other Pak Funds, MI-17's it will have serviceability as the MI-17's, this is to say it will be in a bureaucratic limbo to buy parts and spares.

But if it seeks US money, well that will be a hard sell giving US funds to Europe companies, or at least the Savior is becoming aware that US Tax payers are sick of funding non-US expenditures.


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## Kompromat

kakat said:


> This helicopter has been designed by Turkey as much as the F 35 has.
> 
> Non of it has been designed by Turkey, they just helped fund it and it is going to be assembled in Turkey in kit form. Why do you guys think it was made by Turkey?



If you " Bother " to pay a bit of heed to read the thread before you " comment " that would be a lot nicer for those who think they might got their time wasted by reading such a view but anyway

Go to the first thread and read , it is a joint project between Turkey and Italy so Turkey would be having Manufacturing and selling rights.

Regards:

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## cabatli_53

Black blood said:


> *Cabatli brother this is specially dedicated to you by me.*



Great work indeed... Thnaks bro... I hope We will see the real emblems of Pakistan army on those birds in a short time...

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## cabatli_53

kakat said:


> This helicopter has been designed by Turkey as much as the F 35 has.
> 
> Non of it has been designed by Turkey, they just helped fund it and it is going to be assembled in Turkey in kit form. Why do you guys think it was made by Turkey?




Do you know What is the meaning of this picture ?

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## Kompromat

Cabatli ignore him , he is just trolling.


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## was

middle finger to the US and it,s apache

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## Super Falcon

was said:


> middle finger to the US and it,s apache





hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahaahhaahhaha i think allll finger will make some pain in USA


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## Torquenut

If you " Bother " to pay a bit of heed to read the thread before you " comment " that would be a lot nicer for those who think they might got their time wasted by reading such a view but anyway

Go to the first thread and read , it is a joint project between Turkey and Italy so Turkey would be having Manufacturing and selling rights.

Regards: 

Sorry for not asking the question correctly, not speaking of RD I am speaking of outright expenditure. This is to say, even if Turkey out of the goodness of their hearts gave Pakistan 30 helicopter free of charge. Supportability where will the money come for oil, filter, black boxes etc etc. The more complex aircraft become the higher the supportability the cost. I'm reading your forum but you seem to forget the expense associated with either AH-1Z or W or the Apache. 
Its like the old saying, you can't race Formula 1 with a national race budget.
Please dont think I'm speaking down, but a platform that is cheap to maintain as the AH-1Fand available would be the best option. I dont know why the AH-1F cant be upgraded to the 412 drive train, go with off the shelf radio and fire control systems and all this could be done in Pakistan with Pakistan labor, using USA funds.


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## kakat

Black blood said:


> If you " Bother " to pay a bit of heed to read the thread before you " comment " that would be a lot nicer for those who think they might got their time wasted by reading such a view but anyway
> 
> Go to the first thread and read , it is a joint project between Turkey and Italy so Turkey would be having Manufacturing and selling rights.
> 
> Regards:


Yes, but non of it is designed or made by Turkey. It is all in kit form.


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## kakat

By the way, US Aid doesn't cover things made by other countries, so i doubt Pakistan will ever buy these.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

kakat said:


> By the way, US Aid doesn't cover things made by other countries, so i doubt Pakistan will ever buy these.



Yeah and our economy will remain the same and till 2005 our gdp that even was 11 % at a time was a dream and jf17 j10 will be bought by usa right?


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## Babur Han

kakat said:


> Yes, but non of it is designed or made by Turkey. It is all in kit form.



T-129 is modified Version of A-129 Mangusta, which are Equippt with:

- turkish Mission Computer
- turkish Made Avionics
- turkish Made AT-Missiles
- changed Transmission
- more Powerfull LHTEC-800 Turbine

Only the Chassis of the Helicopter is based on A-129, all in all T-129 is highly modified Version which fullfil the Requirements of turkish Army. Responsible for Design and Integration works are the TAI - Aselsan - Agusta Westaland (ATAK Team), Turkey have full selling Rights to "third Countries".

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## Super Falcon

so how many PA will buy i think around 30 will be great after 30 we should go for 40


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## Kompromat

Super Falcon said:


> so how many PA will buy i think around 30 will be great after 30 we should go for 40



It depends on what they decide but i guess at least 50+ would do the work Inshallah.


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## Super Falcon

INSHAHALLAH but im not too sure that we will get 50+ but we can think better


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## Myth_buster_1

Super Falcon said:


> so how many PA will buy i think around 30 will be great after 30 we should go for 40



Why not 40 and then 30?  or just 70 from the first deal!

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## Super Falcon

yes but it will not be easy for pakistan to get to 70 atak 40 are reality becoz of funds


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## moxin

thanks for the info cabatli_53!

its a better option for PA than supercobra, tiger or (the over-rated) apache.
35+ would be great from the first deal...


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## Super Falcon

yes around 35 to 40 will be great than can army launch fool blooded attack at terrorists


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## Kompromat

Super Falcon said:


> yes around 35 to 40 will be great than can army launch fool blooded attack at terrorists



not just terrorists but it is a killing machine against indian armour.


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## raveolution

Black blood said:


> not just terrorists but it is a killing machine against indian armour.



Probably after they've gone thru the 24 Apaches / Tigers (being evaluated), 30 Mi-35's and 80 Mi17v5's.

On another note, it seems to be quite a mean looking bird.


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## cabatli_53

TAI T-129 Atak Official Brochure

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## cabatli_53

High Mountain Flight Prototype P-1


T-129 P-1 LOOP...

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## Kharian_Beast

Cabatli mate in your opinion and vast knowledge regarding attack helicopters and specifically T-129, is this platform superior to the Eurocopter Tiger? I imagine that this platform will put up heavy competition for ATAK probably even in Pakistani context. The Tiger comes in multiple variants, will T-129 also have different variants? 

Thanks in advance.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Can't wait to see these beautiful birds serving Pakistan Army to increase our defences against terrorist and city wide security

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## Kansu

Cabatli, This is only p-1. and there will be 3 phases more, so three prototypes more. and so far we could see only p-1. and they say we will receive the first fully operative t-129 in 2013. this date looks a little bit difficult for me. You know, it is design is not a new helo, but with its sub-systems it is a new helicopter. and every new thing has problems. even if we receive the 1. one in 2013, i dont think that it will be pressed to service before 2015.
i think our cobra fleet will keep flying until 2020, i dont know the average engine number per helo for our cobras but as far as i know it is not enough anymore and soon we will live some serious problems with them. especially about spare parts... What do you think?
i hope this 2013 date is true. but i guess we wont be able to fly them fully operational before 2015. and please think about the number of the helo we will manufacture. do you think that our cobra fleet will be able to overcome this long heavy duty.


And there is one more thing, you know cobras we have are perfect for HH- high and hot conditions. but we dont know anything about t-129 endurance and stability limits for our geography. will it be really successful? i have some doubts about it.

And finally, for what purpose do we need these helos? to meet the greek leo 2a6gr model panzers? or to provide support to our commando? to chase and destroy low asimetric threats? 

if our intention is to use these helos against terrorist groups, i think they are completely useless. we dont need such complex and expensive systems. thats why my brothers from pakistan shouldnt confuse the aim of the t-129. i think these helos are tank busters of our army.

Best regards
Kansu

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## Nutuk

Kharian_Beast said:


> Cabatli mate in your opinion and vast knowledge regarding attack helicopters and specifically T-129, is this platform superior to the Eurocopter Tiger? I imagine that this platform will put up heavy competition for ATAK probably even in Pakistani context. The Tiger comes in multiple variants, will T-129 also have different variants?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



If I am allowed to answer before Cabatli. Calling helicopters superior to eachother is sometimes misleading, it all depends on the configuration what the user wants. For instance chosing a basic configuration to reduce costs will give a less capable version than one with full options. The Tiger helicopter has different variants because Germany and France have chosen for their own versions. 

It also depends on where you put the priorities, for us it was important to have full control over our attack helicopter, to be able to integrate our own missiles, our own electronics, our own radars. This way we have unique capabilities which we couldn't even get by purchasing Apache longbow blk 3.

So to recap, if Pakistan says we only need a helicopter to get Taliban you only need a basic configuration, even second hand super Cobra's would be more than sufficients (no need to spent lots of money). If the target is to have an attack helicopter of high capability to engage India for instance, you need something better.

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## cabatli_53

Kansu said:


> Cabatli, This is only p-1. and there will be 3 phases more, so three prototypes more. and so far we could see only p-1. and they say we will receive the first fully operative t-129 in 2013. this date looks a little bit difficult for me. You know, it is design is not a new helo, but with its sub-systems it is a new helicopter. and every new thing has problems. even if we receive the 1. one in 2013, i dont think that it will be pressed to service before 2015.



Yes Bro... That's true...It is the first prototype P-1 to perform trials of T-129 transmission systems and powerfull Engines at high snowy mountains.. Atak team will test the electro-optics and weapon payloads with new produced 2nd Prototype...

This is roadway...











Kansu said:


> i think our cobra fleet will keep flying until 2020, i dont know the average engine number per helo for our cobras but as far as i know it is not enough anymore and soon we will live some serious problems with them. especially about spare parts... What do you think?
> i hope this 2013 date is true. but i guess we wont be able to fly them fully operational before 2015. and please think about the number of the helo we will manufacture. do you think that our cobra fleet will be able to overcome this long heavy duty.



Bro, Even If the SSM has described the initial T-129 requirements of Turkish army like 91, You are going to see that This requirements will be increased up to 130-140 T-129 Helo When We started modernizating out AH-1S/P's with T-129 Atak's... We know that The serial modernization of T-129 will be started until 2013 and Until this date, SSM will try to order 10-12 Whisky Cobra helicopters as a stop-gap solution but AH-1P's are obsolete and low capable helos to fight with asymetric warfare threats in S. East geoghraphy of Turkey...





Kansu said:


> And there is one more thing, you know cobras we have are perfect for HH- high and hot conditions. but we dont know anything about t-129 endurance and stability limits for our geography. will it be really successful? i have some doubts about it.



I do not have any doubt about T-129 and performance at high and hot mountainy areas because It is designed and modified in accordance with the requirements of Turkish army. If you check the mission altitude specifications of T-129 targeted, You are going to see that Not Only AH-1W but also Eurocopter Tiger can not cope with T-129 Atak, When the matter become high and hot mountainy areas...




Kansu said:


> And finally, for what purpose do we need these helos? to meet the greek leo 2a6gr model panzers? or to provide support to our commando? to chase and destroy low asimetric threats?



Bro, Officials described the missions of T-129 like;
ROLES
&#8226; Armed Reconnaissance 
&#8226; Precision Strike
&#8226; Armed Escort 
&#8226; Fire Support
&#8226; Attack 
&#8226; Suppression of Enemy Air Defence
&#8226; Deep Strike 
&#8226; Security

I mean It is a multi-role attack helicopter... Not only a Tank Killer, But also a good assymetric r@t hunter...

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## Kansu

Thanks for the answer Cabatli. but there is one more thing puzzling my mind. A while ago when we asked USA to sell us their used Cobras, they refused us. And this happened when Bush was in charge. They told us that they(marines) needed these helos and they wont be able to give any of them. A few months ago i saw a news, according to the news Turkey and USA reached an agreement for the transfer of the Cobras to Turkey which were still in service.
But i didnt take it serious. You know some defence analysts like Lale sar&#305;ibrahimo&#287;lu even wrote that we were buying Mi-28 as stopgap solution. So i dont take there Cobra news' serious since for a long time. Will we really get those helos from USA Marines?

if not, if they will give us used ones like they did in previous years, whats wrong with our own helos? 
you know when we took those helos from USA, they gave us reserve helos and the modernisation project was like ressurection of the dead. (for AH-1P's)

Best regards
Kansu


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## cabatli_53

Bro,

Even If We order second-hand USA Marine 10-12 AH-1W, There will be 28-30 AH-1S/P obsolete Cobra helicopters in our inventory. When The time comes, Army needs to replace them with new generation T-129's because Even every reportages, Army officials told their complaints about performances of Cobra's in S. East Turkey.. 

BTW, 10-12 AH-1W needs has been described as a stop-gap solution until T-129's will be operational in Turkish army until 2013-14... You know After Turkish army has performed Gunes Operation against N. Irak to destroy PKK terorist, Only 7 Modern AH-1W Attak helicopter remained in the inventory of Turkish army. This amount is so less for a country which has a population about 72 million and have a threat like PKK so Army needs more AH-1W's. I mean It is not about AH-1P/S replacement and T-129 program...





Regards...

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## cabatli_53

T-129 Electronic Warfare Systems

&#8226; Countermeasure Dispensing System (CMDS),
&#8226; Missile Warning System (MWS),
&#8226; Laser Warning Receiver (LWR),
&#8226; RF Jammer (RFJ),
&#8226; Radar Warning Receiver (RWR),
&#8226; Suite Central Processing System (SCPS),
&#8226; IR Countermeasures (IRCM).

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## Kansu

Kendi lisan&#305;m&#305;zda yazmay&#305;nca böyle &#351;eyler oluyor Hocam. Asl&#305;nda yukarda used yerine reserve yazmal&#305;yd&#305;m. bundan kaynaklanan bir sorun oldu. Eme&#287;iniz ve ilginiz için te&#351;ekkür ederim Say&#305;n Cabatli. 
kendinize iyi bak&#305;n.
Kansu


just a small conversation about the my misusing some of the the words. thats all mates

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## TOPGUN

How high are the chances for Pak army to get this bird?


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## Kansu

TOPGUN said:


> How high are the chances for Pak army to get this bird?




i guess it depends on budget. except this, T-129 belongs to Turkey with its everything. if Turkey and Pakistan makes an agreement, pakistan surely may have it. i have no doubt for that.

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## Kompromat

Kansu said:


> i guess it depends on budget. except this, T-129 belongs to Turkey with its everything. if Turkey and Pakistan makes an agreement, pakistan surely may have it. i have no doubt for that.



If ATAK comes Pakistan's way then i must say it is going to be a Killing machine against Terrorists and Indian Armour .

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## Parashuram1

Congrats to Turkish members here as this is a very proud development for you all. There is oflate a lot of development in attack helicopter industry all over (Eur)Asia. Let me recap them all one by one and if I am wrong, I would be glad for someone to correct me:

1) Turkey: T-129 ATAK (can be called Eurasia)
2) China: CAIC WZ-10
3) India: HAL LCH

Asia is these days is giving tough competition to European manufacturers of arms and I won't be surprised to see Turkish, Chinese and Indian manufacturers ultimately be the new set of contenders in the near future.

Once again, Congrats to all Turkish people.

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## Jigs

Black blood said:


> If ATAK comes Pakistan's way then i must say it is going to be a Killing machine against Terrorists and Indian Armour .



I wonder if they do choose the T129 which configuration they would go for the TUC-1 or TUC-2.

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## Kompromat

Jigs said:


> I wonder if they do choose the T129 which configuration they would go for the TUC-1 or TUC-2.



Kindly Explain Both 
Thanks

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## cabatli_53

Tuc-1 (Mean "Turk Configuration-1") indicates an early period of T-129 Atak program which will be integrated some foreign missiles and systems cause of time schedule of comparable Turkish systems such as HMDS, AT Missiles. 

Tuc-2 is the final version of T-129 Atak program that will be integrated completely Turkish systems and missiles.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pakistan would definetly go for something that is better and can be easiy to get spares of.
If TUC-2s spares will be liscened and manufactured then PA will certainly buy TUC-2.

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## Jigs

Black blood said:


> Kindly Explain Both
> Thanks



I talked about it in my thread about Turkish military capability but the main difference in configuration is the weapons. 30 will be produced using American based weapons systems while the other 20 will be configured to use Turkish weapons systems. Also the helmet systems will be different(Israel for batch of 30 and Turkish for batch of 20)

T-129 TUC-1 will have an indigenous mission computer, indigenous EW and countermeasures, Aselsan AselFLIR-300, foreign helmet-mounted cueing system (either Elbit or Thales), and foreign missile (either Hellfire II or Spike ER).

T-129 TUC-2 will have an indigenous mission computer, indigenous EW and countermeasures, Aselsan AselFLIR-300, Aselsan AVCI helmet-mounted cueing system, Roketsan UMTAS missile, and Roketsan Cirit Laser guided 2.75 in rocket

Most importantly though over the original Italian platform the turkish one will use stronger engines for sustained hovering capability at higher altitudes. Something which will come in very handy over mountainous terrain.

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## Jigs

cabatli_53 said:


> Tuc-1 (Mean "Turk Configuration-1") indicates an early period of T-129 Atak program which will be integrated some foreign missiles and systems cause of time schedule of comparable Turkish systems such as HMDS, AT Missiles.
> 
> Tuc-2 is the final version of T-129 Atak program that will be integrated completely Turkish systems and missiles.



Most likely it will be the Tuc-2 since i am sure the plus 40 option will be in a full Turkish integration.

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## Kompromat

Then lets wait until it flies over Islamabad.

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## Tiger Awan

Also over Rawalpindi.

I want to see it too

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## cabatli_53

MMW Radar prototype for T-129 Atak... Meteksan

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## cabatli_53

Roketsan Cirit Missile insensitivity Test...






Roketsan Cirit Warhead Test





Land Pod Test Launch





Cirit Missile, Cobra test launch





AH-1W Super Copra Test Launch

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## Kompromat

*Pakistan için elinden geleni destek için Türk karde&#351;leri için te&#351;ekkür ederiz.
Size gurur duyuyoruz ve testin her an size yard&#305;mc&#305; olacakt&#305;r.

Biz Türkler seviyorum.*

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## RanaMubashir

*Good News!........*

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## cabatli_53



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## cabatli_53

Cirit update...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Guclu Turkiye
Guclu Pakistan

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## indopak

Turkey's first T129 attack helicopter crashes 

The first prototype of AgustaWestland's T129 attack helicopter being developed for Turkey crashed on the afternoon of 19 March during a test flight, leaving its Italian test pilot and its test engineer needing hospital treatment for minor injuries.

Early indications point to a loss of power to the tail rotor while flying at an elevation of 1,500ft (455m) near Verbania in northern Italy. Investigation of the incident will focus on establishing the exact cause of the power failure.

The $3 billion ATAK project, based on the A129 Mangusta, is likely to be delayed because of the crash. The deal was signed in 2008, and the first prototype, P1, made its first flight in September 2009. Turkey has ordered 50 production T129s for delivery from 2013 and has options on another 41.

AgustaWestland will make two T129 prototypes in Italy, after which manufacture will shift to its Turkish partner TAI. The aircraft will be equipped with Turkish-made systems including electronics, forward-looking infrared sensor, cockpit avionics and mission computer from Aselsan, and weapon systems from Roketsan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

a sad setback.

accidents unfortunately do happen, but glad the pilots are safe

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## Sunny4pak

Insha Allah the Project will not be delayed.

regards,
sunny


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## mjnaushad

Look at the crash pic and read this

*leaving its Italian test pilot and its test engineer needing hospital treatment for minor injuries.*

When our cobra crashed it cost us our pilots too. 

Lets not forget its a prototype.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well just minor electrical issue , most likely in assebly time , not a major problem - electrical issues can be resolved this is why test prototypes are for ... but I guess we will have to live with COBRAs and Super Cobras in 2015 for now

Or may be french copters


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## mete

All electronic and software systems changed, engine and transmission changed...(software is the thing what makes them fly) Nearly everything changed at this bird. This is worse than a new design.(for an engineer) In a new desing you have all plans as expected, you know what is what exactly, because its your design. But when you change everything on a previous design you have to recalculate everything you see. While doing this, wrong things may be seen as normal. It might be a sensor, wire or a sofware code...(Not for this accident or this halo, im talking about general problems about many projects you can imagine. Even a TV or a spaceship )

When you change a design everything gets complicated. I was waiting for a problem, and it came...(unfortunatly)

This accident is a sad thing but if we think about these problems, its acceptable for a P1.

I hope this problem wont cause a change at calender plans.


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## cabatli_53

It is sad indeed... but TAI officials told that There will not be any delay in program..

P-2 T-129 renewals (July 10)
P-3 prototypes assembly start (March 10)
P-4 TAI -2011
P-5 TAI -2011

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

cabatli_53 said:


> It is sad indeed... but TAI officials told that There will not be any delay in program..
> 
> P-2 T-129 renewals (July 10)
> P-3 prototypes assembly start (March 10)
> P-4 TAI -2011
> P-5 TAI -2011



Prototypes are there for test and burn ... so if a problem was captures at this stage its better vs some helicopters like Dhruv that went into production and they are crashing , so its best to figure out glitches early 

But it seems like some electrical issue short circuit or something that the rear tail stopped working


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## Stealth

still AH1Z on top!!!!!


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## Super Falcon

how do you rate its anti tank misssile system do it has capability to pentrate indian T 90 armour


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## cabatli_53

Cirit= It is able to penetrate 250+mm reactive armours with a range from 8km. (3kg warhead)

UMTAS=It is able to penetrate about 1000+mm reactive armours with a range from 8km. (10kg tandem warhead)

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## cabatli_53

Prototype for Turkish Attack Helo Crashes
By UMIT ENGINSOY and BURAK EGE BEKDIL
Published: 23 Mar 2010 14:39 Print | EmailANKARA - A prototype for the T-129, an attack helicopter being developed by the Italian-British AgustaWestland for the Turkish Army, has crashed during a test flight in Italy but the pilots survived, the program's main Turkish partner announced March 23.

"*An [Agusta-made] A-129 Mangusta helicopter,* *being used for test purposes for our ATAK program*, has crash-landed near Verbania in Italy," the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) said in a written statement.

"The two Italian pilots were injured, but their condition is not life-threatening," it said. *"The accident is not expected to affect the ATAK program's development timetable."*

One Turkish procurement official said the accident took place March 19.

Under Ankara's ATAK program, AgustaWestland signed a multibillion-dollar contract with Turkey in 2007 for joint manufacture with Turkish partners of at least 50 T-129 attack helicopters. T-129 is the Turkish version of Agusta's A-129.

TAI is AgustaWestland's main Turkish partner in the program.

The first T-129 is to be delivered to Turkey in 2015. 

Prototype for Turkish Attack Helo Crashes - Defense News




Code:


"The first T-129 is to be delivered to Turkey in 2015. "


The first T-129 is to be delivered to Turkey in 2013, Not 2015...

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## Nutuk

Pakistan's military procurement official general Kingriwi visiting Turkey's SSM (undersecretariat of the ministry of defence, military procurements and developments office) to get information on Pakistani F16 modernization and T-129 attack helicopter project.

for pictures: Savunma Sanayii Müste?arl???

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## Adios Amigo

Good news, means T-129 attack , is under serious consideration.
















Adios

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## Novice09

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Prototypes are there for test and burn ... so if a problem was captures at this stage its better vs some *helicopters like Dhruv* that went into production and they are crashing , so its best to figure out glitches early
> 
> But it seems like some electrical issue short circuit or something that the rear tail stopped working



From where Dhruv comes into the picture  

Then you cry *troll troll*

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## cabatli_53

Nutuk said:


> Pakistan's military procurement official general Kingriwi visiting Turkey's SSM (undersecretariat of the ministry of defence, military procurements and developments office) to get information on Pakistani F16 modernization and T-129 attack helicopter project.
> 
> for pictures: Savunma Sanayii Müste?arl???



Both ministers have discussed Corvette and Submarine programs both country have.

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## Adios Amigo

Very pleasant news Indeed, But now its about time, that we soon sign a contract, A solid step is definitely needed, to skip all the slips but the cup and the lips.













Adios

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## cabatli_53




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Probbly I think by early next year we will see Turkish prototype flying in air again ... 

Hopefully they figured out the fan shut down problem , probbly atmospheric pressure could be culprit , or hose or wiring issue at high altitudes ... every thing has to be done perfectly ...

It would be interesting to see what the Turkish will conclude from the wrecke eavlution , what was the root cause of the crash beyond the high level discussion that it was rear wing stopped operating


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Judgeing at the picture , I am suprised at the top rotating rotars , they do not seem to be made of metallic material , it looks like its wood... ???? 

Can anyone elaborate why does the image gives an impression that the top rotator have wood like physical attributes ...


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## nightrider_saulat

cabatli_53 said:


>



*by seeing this pic one can easily guess that PM is seriously involved in joint collaboration with turkey over corvettess and AK-2 apart from MLU​*


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## Haseebullah

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Judgeing at the picture , I am suprised at the top rotating rotars , they do not seem to be made of metallic material , it looks like its wood... ????
> 
> Can anyone elaborate why does the image gives an impression that the top rotator have wood like physical attributes ...



it looks like carbon fiber to me.........correct me if i am wrong!

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## TaimiKhan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Judgeing at the picture , I am suprised at the top rotating rotars , they do not seem to be made of metallic material , it looks like its wood... ????
> 
> Can anyone elaborate why does the image gives an impression that the top rotator have wood like physical attributes ...





Haseebullah said:


> it looks like carbon fiber to me.........correct me if i am wrong!



Yups right, nowadays most of the material in aircraft are made up of Carbon Fibre Composites and similar stuff like that.


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## mete

taimikhan said:


> Yups right, nowadays most of the material in aircraft are made up of Carbon Fibre Composites and similar stuff like that.



I think CF alone is not usable on halo wings because of its material properties. I think CF is only the composite carrier material of that composite.


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## TaimiKhan

mete said:


> I think CF alone is not usable on halo wings because of its material properties. I think CF is only the composite carrier material of that composite.



Thanks Sir, i know they are not made of just CF, rather something else is also added to make it more durable and strong. Composites are made up of different materials and combination of composite material used in special ways.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Looks like the already cleaned out the engine and took it back for analysis , I am suprise there is still something left in that copter 

How does the eject option works in these choppers you can't possibly go up use an eject seat with the rotors on top must be 
a tricky thing to get out of the copter with it just out of control and moving in all directions


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## Irfan Baloch

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Looks like the already cleaned out the engine and took it back for analysis , I am suprise there is still something left in that copter
> 
> How does the eject option works in these choppers you can't possibly go up use an eject seat with the rotors on top must be
> a tricky thing to get out of the copter with it just out of control and moving in all directions




the roter blades are torn off by an explosion at the base of the blades and then the canopy flies off and the pilot seat jetisons as normal

the cut off you see is rougly where the blades before ejection are blown off.

check videos on helicopter ejection & it will make more sense

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## TrMhMt

Haseebullah said:


> it looks like carbon fiber to me.........correct me if i am wrong!



Yes it is.. you are right..


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## Aamir Hussain

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Looks like the already cleaned out the engine and took it back for analysis , I am suprise there is still something left in that copter
> 
> How does the eject option works in these choppers you can't possibly go up use an eject seat with the rotors on top must be
> a tricky thing to get out of the copter with it just out of control and moving in all directions



The pilots will be cut to threads if they eject from the cockpit and into the rotor blades!!! 

I guess no ejection seats!!!! Just kidding!


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## Aamir Hussain

Irfan Baloch said:


> the roter blades are torn off by an explosion at the base of the blades and then the canopy flies off and the pilot seat jetisons as normal
> 
> the cut off you see is rougly where the blades before ejection are blown off.
> 
> check videos on helection ejection & it will make more sense



As for helos with the ejection seats, most designs use separation charges in the rotor head to separate the blades prior to the seats leaving. So they don't actually hit the blades on the way out -- hopefully.

In this case the rotor head did not separate -- seems like no ejection! 

Furthermore, these helos are designed to fly low and fast - it would be a miracle if the separation system and the ejection sequence is successful at low levels of flight! 

This is the reason that both the Apache and the Cobra does not have an ejection system but depend upon crash panels and armored panels for battlefield survivability.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Aamir Hussain said:


> As for helos with the ejection seats, most designs use separation charges in the rotor head to separate the blades prior to the seats leaving. So they don't actually hit the blades on the way out -- hopefully.
> 
> In this case the rotor head did not separate -- seems like no ejection!
> 
> Furthermore, these helos are designed to fly low and fast - it would be a miracle if the separation system and the ejection sequence is successful at low levels of flight!
> 
> This is the reason that both the Apache and the Cobra does not have an ejection system but depend upon crash panels and armored panels for battlefield survivability.



hey i saw a hele ejection in a bond movie it was like the rotors dis ingaged frn axel with charges and then the whole compartment of two pilots ejected...is it possible?


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## Heruamarth

Greetings from a new member. 

Currently Russian Ka-50 Kamov heli is using ejection seats. When pilot decides to eject, small explosive charges blow off the rotor blades to protect pilots. Rest is like in fighters, canopy is thrown away, seat is pulled away and little charges activated to fly the seat away.

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## pakistantiger

i think pakistan should go fot t129 bcause we looking for westren r american attack helos so turkish is better because no strings attached with it

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## cabatli_53

Germany Suspends 3-Billion-euro Eurocopter Order

Germany Suspends 3-Billion-euro Eurocopter Order

(Source: compiled by defense-aerospace.com; issued May 25, 2010) 







Germany is suspending its three billion euro purchase of the EADS Tiger attack helicopter due to serious problems with its wiring.

A spokesman for the German defence ministry said the first combat-ready aircraft are not expected before 2012 and, according to a leaked ministry report, the purchase from EADS division Eurocopter has been *suspended until the faults have been effectively and systematically rectified.*

So far Eurocopter has delivered 11 of 80 Tiger helicopters to Gemany, but the report said none was suitable for operational use or training.

Corrective measures related to Tigers *wiring problems* have been developed, agreed by the customer and are being implemented, Eurocopter spokeswoman Cecile Vion-Lanctuit said by e-mail. Two helicopters will be handed over for intensive tests in June and July, with additional deliveries scheduled for the fourth quarter, she said.

France and Germany ordered 80 Tiger helicopters each in 1998, with France choosing a different version than the German model. The French army last year deployed its first Tigers to Afghanistan. Germany is still waiting for the first fully combat-capable version of the type it has ordered, and which it needs to provide air support for the 4,300 German troops deployed in northern Afghanistan.

Eurocopter has won export orders from both Spain, for 24 helicopters, and from Australia, for 18 units.


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## cabatli_53

Nutuk said:


> Pakistan's military procurement official general Kingriwi visiting Turkey's SSM (undersecretariat of the ministry of defence, military procurements and developments office) to get information on Pakistani F16 modernization and T-129 attack helicopter project.
> 
> for pictures: Savunma Sanayii Müste?arl???




Pakistan and T-129 ...

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## cabatli_53

According to Aselsan magazine, Aselsan engineers have developed a new, lighter and intelligent MFD's to integrate on Turkish aviation programs but I do not know whether They will be applied for T-129 Atak's as well... 

At current statues, Indigenous utility helicopters, Hurkus basic trainer and the winner of medium utility helicopter tender will carry new Aselsan MFD'S...

Upper 3 screen are new MFD's...





Current classic MFD's Aselsan is producing...

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## cabatli_53

In additions, Most probably, T-129 will carry indigenous Tubitak-UEKAE made HF-VHF-UHF "Radio Voice Security Device" called Milsec-3.






and UEKAE Milon-7 Krypto Device

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## wild peace

ddddddddddddddd


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## wild peace




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## cabatli_53

SDT DDR 300 Data storage for Helicopters !!!

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## Sparten80

Congratulations Turkey on its attack helicopters program.

If the T-129 ATAK helicopters passes our assessment tests and meets our needs, I think we should go ahead and procure it from Turkey.

Pakistan needs to have a large attack fleet of helicopters (should be greater than 200) especially when factoring our terrain, and the size of our adverseries. Furthermore, other types of helicopters (medium transport) should also be procured as we learned from the October 2005 earthquake the impact of not having enough helicopters. Also, civilian helicopters for our major urban centres/cities would go long ways in helping better police them as well as in better planning urban projects. I think a helicopter manufacturing industry is in need for Pakistan overall.

I also think we should bolster our previous stock of AH-1 Cobra Helicopters; these can be procured from surplus US army supplies for next to nothing if not practically free. We should try to procure them at a regular rate as they have a proven track record and are affordable as well as pack quite a punch for their size!

I do think, that in the interim to long run, we should be manufacturing our own attack as well as transport helicopters(Blackhawks or other) in line with our policy of local manufacturing and indigenization learning from our past experiences and the many sanctions we have been placed under.

Perhaps, maybe we can offer our Turkish brothers our engineering expertise and build a new mod/upgrade of this pre-existing design. Again, congratulations to our Turkish brothers on what looks like a marvelous design.


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## Super Falcon

Sparten80 said:


> Congratulations Turkey on its attack helicopters program.
> 
> If the T-129 ATAK helicopters passes our assessment tests and meets our needs, I think we should go ahead and procure it from Turkey.
> 
> Pakistan needs to have a large attack fleet of helicopters (should be greater than 200) especially when factoring our terrain, and the size of our adverseries. Furthermore, other types of helicopters (medium transport) should also be procured as we learned from the October 2005 earthquake the impact of not having enough helicopters. Also, civilian helicopters for our major urban centres/cities would go long ways in helping better police them as well as in better planning urban projects. I think a helicopter manufacturing industry is in need for Pakistan overall.
> 
> I also think we should bolster our previous stock of AH-1 Cobra Helicopters; these can be procured from surplus US army supplies for next to nothing if not practically free. We should try to procure them at a regular rate as they have a proven track record and are affordable as well as pack quite a punch for their size!
> 
> I do think, that in the interim to long run, we should be manufacturing our own attack as well as transport helicopters(Blackhawks or other) in line with our policy of local manufacturing and indigenization learning from our past experiences and the many sanctions we have been placed under.
> 
> Perhaps, maybe we can offer our Turkish brothers our engineering expertise and build a new mod/upgrade of this pre-existing design. Again, congratulations to our Turkish brothers on what looks like a marvelous design.






wellll u took this alll from my lips agreed every bit of your statement we neeed more and more helis transport attack helis and more helis for police it will help them to come over crime specially for major cities karachi lahore peshawar quetta hyderabad faislabad islamabad etc and reple agging heli puma etc


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## Nutuk

Sparten80 said:


> I also think we should bolster our previous stock of AH-1 Cobra Helicopters; these can be procured from surplus US army supplies for next to nothing if not practically free. We should try to procure them at a regular rate as they have a proven track record and are affordable as well as pack quite a punch for their size!



In regards to the Cobra, they are probably available in abundance however I am not sure wether the Cobra helicopter is very suitable for Pakistan.

Pakistan has like Turkey high mountains and needs a helicopter that can fully armed hover up to 4 - 6 km. The single engined Cobra can not!

The double engined super Cobra can, but they are not available cos the US marines is converting them into King Cobra helicopters.

That's the main reason why Turkey selected the T-129 attack helicopter, the helicopter is suitable for the Turkish mountainous landscape (also for Pakistan)

regards

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## Nav

very Very Hot.. VERY VERY SEXY, I hope PA will get this deadly bird

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## LegionnairE

Navkhan said:


> very Very Hot.. VERY VERY SEXY, I hope PA will get this deadly bird


That's not T129, it is a photo of old A129.

T129 is not ready yet, it will have a longer body, 5 rotor blades and longer blades, more powerful LHTEC CTS800-4A engines, bigger FLIR(aselsan aselflir300), and some other changes will be made on body

Heres a pic of first prototype.


It will be as heavy as apache and as light as cobra  im thrilled

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## farhan_9909

turkey is emerging weapons market in the world

i think by 2015 they will start indegenous aircraft project too

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## LegionnairE

farhan_9909 said:


> Turkey is emerging weapons market in the world
> 
> i think by 2015 they will start indegenous aircraft project too


It depends on israel i think  go jews ! make us do it!  

More enemies you got, more weapons you need, simple...

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## xMustiiej70

LegionnairE said:


> It depends on israel i think  go jews ! make us do it!
> 
> More enemies you got, more weapons you need, simple...



turkey is capable of making i think atleast 4th generation fighter jet.
after they participated in jsf program(and still do).

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## WAQAS119

any recent news on Pakistan's procurement of T-129 ATAK Attack helicopter?


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## Sunny4pak

Turkey is already producing F-16 Under license if im not wrong........?

regards,

sunny


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## Jigs

Sunny4pak said:


> Turkey is already producing F-16 Under license if im not wrong........?
> 
> regards,
> 
> sunny



Yes that is correct we also do the Engines. We have actually built Fuselages and wings for USAF F-16s and completely built a number of Block 40 F-16s for the Egyptian Air Force. Along with all of ours.

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## sancho

LegionnairE said:


> It will be as heavy as apache and as light as cobra  im thrilled



Not really, Apaches emtpy weight is over 5000 Kg, but that is the maximum take off weight of the AW129/T129. Apache is a heavy weight combat helicopter, AW129/129 is only in the light combat helicopter class like the Cobras, or EC Tigers.


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## LegionnairE

sancho said:


> Not really, Apaches emtpy weight is over 5000 Kg, but that is the maximum take off weight of the AW129/T129. Apache is a heavy weight combat helicopter, AW129/129 is only in the light combat helicopter class like the Cobras, or EC Tigers.



I meant its firepower... with this twin engines, it will have no problem wit carrying hellfire missiles or Turkish equivalent UMTAS missiles... I mean its body may be light but its armament is HEAVY 

M230 doesnt meet our needs, our troops are sometimes getting very close of enemy, M230 is not accurate and has area effect explosive projectiles, it has high risk of damaging our own troops

So, M197 20 mm gatling will do the job

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## Sparten80

Nutuk said:


> In regards to the Cobra, they are probably available in abundance however I am not sure wether the Cobra helicopter is very suitable for Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan has like Turkey high mountains and needs a helicopter that can fully armed hover up to 4 - 6 km. The single engined Cobra can not!
> 
> The double engined super Cobra can, but they are not available cos the US marines is converting them into King Cobra helicopters.
> 
> That's the main reason why Turkey selected the T-129 attack helicopter, the helicopter is suitable for the Turkish mountainous landscape (also for Pakistan)
> regards




Nasilsanez!

Thanks for the info on the limited capabilities of the single engine Cobras. I mentioned the cobras as a good stop-gap measure and we could easily fill our attack helicopter void as they are in abundance sitting in US Storage centres, we should be procuring regardless.

Pakistan has an extreme shortage of helicopters, we started off with a small fleet of 20 dedicated attack helicopters(cobra's) and I dont think we've made any significant increases in the past decade or so that can be called a major expansion.

We have used retrofitted and ageing puma's and M-17 etc.. but these are not dedicated attack helicopters.

Is it such a major overhaul to upgrade the single to a double engined cobra? while Pakistan does require a helicopter that can handle our rough terrain(our major anti-tank need is our eastern border-Sindhi Dessert/Panjab plains/hills of Kashmir), but as you correctly pointed to, our terrain is diverse, and should cover for our significant mountainous terrain as well, the key point i would like to stress is that we need to fill this void quickly(i.e. Hurry up Turkey! we need attack choppers fast!)

We will eventually need to establish a local helicopter facility and manufacturing base, for a wide array of helicopter types (attack and equally if not more important transport types). Pakistan's size, her population, geography, regional environment and topography dictate that we take positive steps in this regard.

Any estimates as to when will the T-129 ATAK helicopter be operational?


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## Nutuk

The T-129 will be available in 2015-16.

To convert a single engine cobra into a twin engine cobra is possible, the first super cobra prototypes where converts but the costs involved for such is not justifyable as it is nearing the cost of a new atack helicopter.


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## sancho

LegionnairE said:


> I meant its firepower... with this twin engines, it will have no problem wit carrying hellfire missiles or Turkish equivalent UMTAS missiles... I mean its body may be light but its armament is HEAVY
> 
> M230 doesnt meet our needs, our troops are sometimes getting very close of enemy, M230 is not accurate and has area effect explosive projectiles, it has high risk of damaging our own troops
> 
> So, M197 20 mm gatling will do the job



Still not correct, the firepower is also only light and comparable to Tiger, not to Apache!

The T129 will carry 8 anti tank missiles and a 20 mm gun with 500 rounds, while Apache carries 16 ATGM and a 30mm gun with 1200 rounds.

Check the T129 brochure and you will see it:

http://www.tai.com.tr/ds_Resource/image/content/T129 ATAK-Brochure.pdf


*Light combat helicopters:*

AW129 / T129
AH 1 Cobra (Viper can carry 16 ATGMs too, but still is mainly a LCH)
WZ 10 
HAL LCH
AH-2 Rooivalk (same as mentioned for the Viper)


*Heavy combat helicopters:*

AH 64 Apache
Mi 28
Ka 52


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## LegionnairE

Brochure shows symetric payload but we all know T129 will be able to carry 12 hellfire missiles assymetrically...

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## cabatli_53

Contrary to A-129, One side wing of T-129 Atak will be able to carry *300kg weight*.

*300*2= 600kg for both wing...*

*4 UMTAS missiles + Launcher weight <210kg X2 < 420 kg *for both wing...

*600kg-420kg (8 missile +2 launcher) = 180kg remained...*

*180/ 37.5kg (Weight of 1 Umtas Missile) = More than 4.8 UMTAS* missiles can be mounted on T-129 wings additional to 8 UMTAS.

*8+4.8 = More than 12.8 UMTAS Missiles* ranked kick-arse High Fire Power for an Light Attack helicopter which has a take off weight around 5000 kg...

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## cabatli_53

In additions, In prospect of latest development in Turkish defence industry, New generation intelligent MFD's which was developed by Aselsan new, will be integrated on T-129 Atak's...

Up 3 MFD is new...

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## gowthamraj

^sorry man, MFD means

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## SpArK

manufactured


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## gowthamraj

gowthamraj said:


> ^sorry man, MFD means



ya i got it, is it include HMD systen?


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## cabatli_53

gowthamraj said:


> ^sorry man, MFD means



MFD= Multi Function Display...

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## TaimiKhan

gowthamraj said:


> ^sorry man, MFD means



this is MFD

Multi-function display - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HMD is different then MFDs

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## gowthamraj

^ Thanks for answers, is the HMD is indigenous of turkey


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## Peregrine

hi
can any one draw the comparison between T-129, apache & tiger, i want to get an idea about the capabilities of T-129 in contrast to these gunship heli's, Thanks


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## Jigs

Peregrine said:


> hi
> can any one draw the comparison between T-129, apache & tiger, i want to get an idea about the capabilities of T-129 in contrast to these gunship heli's, Thanks



*T-129*
* Crew: 2 pilots
* Length: 14.6 m (47 ft 11 in)
* Rotor diameter: 11.90 m (39 ft 0 in)
* Height: 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in)
* Disc area: 444.9 m&#178; (4,789 ft&#178
* Max takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)
* Powerplant: 2&#215; LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each
* Rotor systems: 5 blades on main rotor
* Cruise speed: 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
* Range: 561 km (303 nmi, 341 mi)
* Ferry range: 1,000 km (540 nmi, 620 mi)
* Service ceiling: 6,096 m (20,000 ft)

Armament
* Guns: 1&#215; 20 mm (0.787 in) three-barrel gatling-type cannon (500 rounds)
* Rockets: 4 pods with
o 38&#215; 81 mm (3.19 in) unguided rockets or
o 76&#215; 70 mm (2.75 in) unguided rockets or
o 12.7 mm machine gun-pod
* Missiles:
o 8&#215; AGM-114 Hellfire, BGM-71 TOW, Hydra 70, Spike-ER, UMTAS, Roketsan Cirit anti-tank and anti-armor missiles and Sura D/Snora.
o 4-8&#215; AIM-92 Stinger or Mistral or AIM-9 Sidewinder anti-aircraft missiles



*Apache*

* Crew: 2 (pilot, and co-pilot/gunner)
* Length: 58.17 ft (17.73 m) (with both rotors turning)
* Rotor diameter: 48 ft 0 in (14.63 m)
* Height: 12.7 ft (3.87 m)
* Disc area: 1,809.5 ft&#178; (168.11 m&#178
* Empty weight: 11,387 lb (5,165 kg)
* Loaded weight: 17,650 lb (8,000 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 23,000 lb (10,433 kg)
* Powerplant: 2&#215; General Electric T700-GE-701 and later upgraded to T700-GE-701C (1990&#8211;present) & T700-GE-701D (AH-64D block III) turboshafts, -701: 1,690 shp, -701C: 1,890 shp, -701D: 2,000 shp (-701: 1,260 kW, -701C: 1,490 kW, -701D: 1,490 kW) each
* Fuselage length: 49 ft 5 in (15.06 m)
* Rotor systems: 4 blade main rotor, 4 blade tail rotor in non-orthogonal alignment
Performance

* Never exceed speed: 197 knots (227 mph, 365 km/h)
* Maximum speed: 158 knots (182 mph, 293 km/h)
* Cruise speed: 143 knots (165 mph, 265 km/h)
* Range: 257 nmi (295 mi, 476 km) with Longbow radar mast
* Combat radius: 260 nmi (300 mi, 480 km)
* Ferry range: 1,024 nmi (1,180 mi, 1,900 km)
* Service ceiling: 21,000 ft (6,400 m) minimum loaded
* Rate of climb: 2,500 ft/min (12.7 m/s)
* Disc loading: 9.80 lb/ft&#178; (47.9 kg/m&#178
* Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb (310 W/kg)

Armament

* Guns: 1&#215; 30 &#215; 113 mm (1.18 &#215; 4.45 in) M230 Chain Gun with 1,200 rounds
* Hardpoints: Up to 6 pylon stations on stub wing
* Rockets: Hydra 70 FFAR rockets
* Missiles: combination of AGM-114 Hellfire, AIM-9 Sidewinder, and AIM-92 Stinger




*Eurocopter Tiger*
* Crew: 2 (pilot, weapon systems officer)
* Length: 14.08 m fuselage (46 ft 2 in)
* Rotor diameter: 13.00 m (42 ft 8 in)
* Height: 3.83 m (12 ft 7 in)
* Disc area: 133 m&#178; (1,430 ft&#178
* Empty weight: 3,060 kg (6,750 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 6,000 kg (13,000 lb)
* Internal fuel capacity: 1,080 kg (2,380 lb)
* Powerplant: 2&#215; Rolls-Royce/Turbomeca/MTU MTR390 turboshafts, 873 kW (1,170 shp) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: 290 km/h with mast, 315 km/h without mast (157 knots, 181 mph with mast, 170 knots or 196 mph without mast)
* Range: 800 km (430 nm, 500 mi) combat (with external tanks in the inboard stations: 1300km)
* Service ceiling: 4,000 m (13,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 10.7 m/s (2,105 ft/min)

Armament

* Guns: ** 1&#215; 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30 cannon in chin turret

On its two inner hardpoints and two outer hardpoints the Eurocopter Tiger can carry a combination of the following weapons:

* on each of its two inner hardpoints:
o 2x 20 mm (0.787 in) machine cannons in a pod, or
o 22&#215; 68 mm (2.68 in) SNEB unguided missiles in a pod, or
o 8x AGM-114 Hellfire laser guided missiles
* on each of its two outer hardpoints:
o 2&#215; Mistral air-to-air missiles, or
o 12&#215; 68 mm (2.68 in) SNEB unguided missiles in a pod

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## Peregrine

Hello jigs,
Thanks a lot, much obliged.

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## sancho

LegionnairE said:


> Brochure shows symetric payload but we all know T129 will be able to carry 12 hellfire missiles assymetrically...



Actually it says (page 3, bottom right):



> *Asymmetrical Weapons Load Capability*
> 
> - 20 mm Turreted Gun System
> - FOUR WING STORE STATIONS
> - *8 ATGM Missiles*
> - 4 x 19 70 mm (2.75) Rockets...



I guess you get the point, that it is not in the same class like the Apache, even Agusta Westland, place the Apache AH MK1, like they call their upgraded version of the Apache, a class above the T129 on their website.
However, the T129 will be a good addition for turkish forces anyway.


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## Peregrine

hi^^
this thread is about its evaluation & induction prospects in PA. by looking at it's comparison with Apache & Tiger, it doesn't seem a bad choice for Pakistan Army


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## Jigs

It will probably be cheaper then both those choices too.


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## cabatli_53

Peregrine said:


> hi
> can any one draw the comparison between T-129, apache & tiger, i want to get an idea about the capabilities of T-129 in contrast to these gunship heli's, Thanks

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## sancho

Peregrine said:


> hi^^
> this thread is about its evaluation & induction prospects in PA. by looking at it's comparison with Apache & Tiger, it doesn't seem a bad choice for Pakistan Army



What about the Chinese WZ-10? Same class, similar capabilities and should be available even earlier right? Would be intersting to see those 2 in a direct competition.


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## Peregrine

sancho said:


> What about the Chinese WZ-10? Same class, similar capabilities and should be available even earlier right? Would be intersting to see those 2 in a direct competition.


hi
Yup, you are right & if i am not wrong it was also under evaluation but i am not sure. but if both of them have similar capabilities then i think Pakistan should go for T129 as Pakistan already has a lot of Chinese tech. so for the sake of diversity T129 should have an edge over WZ-10


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## Hindustan Fighter

Jigs said:


> It will probably be cheaper then both those choices too.



What would be the estimated cost of T-129 (fly away cost).


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## Super Falcon

well no idea i have on its operational cost but similar to cobra i think


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## sancho

Peregrine said:


> hi
> Yup, you are right & if i am not wrong it was also under evaluation but i am not sure. but if both of them have similar capabilities then i think Pakistan should go for T129 as Pakistan already has a lot of Chinese tech. so for the sake of diversity T129 should have an edge over WZ-10



Seems like PA have other plans:



> *Pakistan wants combat copters
> U.S. asked to supply arms for 'silent surge' against terrorists*
> 
> Pakistan is seeking advanced U.S. attack helicopters and other weapons as part of a comprehensive arms package to bolster preparations for what its military is calling a "silent surge" of more than 100,000 troops into the mountain lairs of al Qaeda's senior leadership in the country's Northwest Frontier Province.
> 
> "I have been ambassador here for two years, and all I have to show for it is eight secondhand Mi-17 transport helicopters for a war that requires helicopters to root out al Qaeda and the Taliban," Pakistan's ambassador to Washington, Husain Haqqani, said in an interview with The Washington Times.
> 
> The ambassador said, "Military operations would have been quicker and much easier to plan and execute if we had the equipment. We have had tremendous attrition and a lot of loss of lives because of not having the right equipment."
> 
> The $2.5 billion in arms that Pakistan has requested includes new helicopter gunships, including AH-1W and the Apache-64-D; armed helicopters, such as the AH-6 and MD-530 Little Bird; and utility and cargo helicopters, such as the UH-60 Black Hawk, the CH-47 D Chinook and the UH-1Y Huey.
> 
> Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell said the U.S. government is aware of its ally's military wish list.
> 
> "The Pakistani military's interest in additional lift is well-known, and we have tried to help meet their needs by providing several Mi-17s. We will continue to try to help them acquire the helicopters and other equipment they require to defeat the insurgents and terrorists in their midst," Mr. Morrell said.
> 
> Pakistan's military last year reversed its policy of signing cease-fire agreements with local tribal governors as it did in 2007 and 2008 in the regions thought to be hiding places for senior al Qaeda and Taliban leaders.
> 
> The new "silent surge," however, also has cost the lives of thousands of Pakistani soldiers, including generals. The ambassador said Pakistan has lost more than 600 officers affiliated with the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), its powerful and influential military intelligence arm.
> 
> Pakistan also has lost three one-star generals and one three-star general in combat. Five other generals have been killed in terrorist attacks.
> 
> Pakistani military officials have said their forces have a total of just 26 combat and transport helicopters for a counterinsurgency war in a mountainous region where helicopters provide a critical advantage.



Pakistan wants combat copters - Washington Times


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## johnny boy

really a nice looking copter!!!any idea about how much it costs??per piece?/


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## Kompromat

sancho said:


> Seems like PA have other plans:
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan wants combat copters - Washington Times



We are currently looking for High End Platform for COIN ops which means that our needs are quite urgent this is why the Army is perusing Apache Longbow and Super Cobras for Attack role , Black Hawk and Chinook for Heavy Transport roles and some others like Little Bird for light attack role.

New Bells are in PA inventory and so are some Cobras already , since we are in a desperate need for these helos for our ops the T-129 ATAK is a little late on schedule as 59 Copters are the requirement of Turk Army which would be catered by the year 2016 which means Pakistan has plenty of Time to decide for this copter as it wont be operational before 2014.


I personally want to see ATAK in PA inventory as it will give us Home production option which we cant get with apache longbow or Super Cobra.

Regards:

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## Super Falcon

well we need apaches super cobras and atak preety fast


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## ejaz007

*Turkey To Buy 9 European A129 Attack Helicopters *
BY UMIT ENGINSOY And BURAK EGE BEKDIL 
Published: 15 Jun 2010 19:00

ANKARA - Turkey will launch urgent talks to buy nine A129 Mangusta attack helicopters from the Italian-British manufacturer AgustaWestland to fight separatist Kurds operating in an area near the country's borders with Iraq and Iran, a key Turkish official announced late Tuesday. 

Turkey plans on launching talks to buy nine A129 Mangusta attack helicopters from the Italian-British manufacturer AgustaWestland to fight separatist Kurds. (MIKE LEHMANN) "In an effort to meet the urgent needs of the Turkish Land Forces Command and as part of the ongoing attack helicopter program, negotiations for the procurement of an additional nine attack helicopters will be launched with TUSAS," Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul told reporters after a meeting of the Defense Industry Executive Committee, Turkey's highest decision-making body on procurement.

TUSAS is the Turkish name for the Turkish Aerospace Industries, the prime contractor in Ankara's program to jointly manufacture at least 50 attack helicopters with AgustaWestland. The nine helicopters will come in addition to the 50 choppers to be jointly manufactured. The additional nine gunships to be procured are A129 Mangustas, a senior procurement official said.

The Defense Industry Executive Committee's members include Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Gonul, Gen. Ilker Basbug, chief of the General Staff, and Murad Bayar, head of Turkey's procurement agency. .

Bayar's office, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, and AgustaWestland signed a multibillion-dollar contract in 2008 for joint production of 50 T129s, a Turkish version of the A129.

The Kurdish separatist group, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), has killed scores of soldiers since it stepped up attacks on Turkish targets in the spring.

The Turkish Army operates six AH-1W Super Cobras and more than 20 earlier model Cobra helicopters, and military officials in recent years have voiced an urgent need for additional gunships to fight the PKK.

The T129s are expected to become operational by 2014. The latest announcement for additional gunships represents a stopgap solution until the first deliveries.

Turkey To Buy 9 European A129 Attack Helicopters - Defense News


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## far_ahmad

congrates to all muslims.milestone in the history of aviation specially muslims country.once again congrats.as US is not giving the latest heli's its matter of happiness.pakistan:


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## sancho

Black Blood said:


> I personally want to see ATAK in PA inventory as it will give us Home production option which we cant get with apache longbow or Super Cobra.
> 
> Regards:



I have some doubts about that! Turkey may have the intellectual and sale rightes *for this version*, but it is still a version of the Agosta Westland 129 and includes also an US engine. If the US won't allow production in Pakistan for their own helicopters and parts, why should they do it for foreign competitior?
I think the WZ-10 would give more chances for such a licence production, maybe even upgraded with weapons, or avionics from Turkey.


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## sancho

johnny boy said:


> really a nice looking copter!!!any idea about how much it costs??per piece?/





> *Surprise: Turkey favors Alenia in attack helicopter tender*
> 
> Turkey on Thursday selected Italy's Agusta Westland's Mangusta A 129 model in its long-standing attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopter acquisition project, eliminating South African Denel's Rooivalk.
> 
> The most important reason for Mangusta's selection was the price differences with Denel, Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said at the end of an around three-and-a-half-hour meeting of the Executive Committee of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM), the top decision-making organ in Turkish arms procurement. The committee is composed of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an, Minister Gönül and Chief of General Staff Gen. Ya&#351;ar Büyükan&#305;t. "The project [for attack helicopter acquisition] has been finalized after 12 years," said Gönül.
> 
> *When asked, Gönül stated that the project cost for the production of 50 helicopters would be around $2.7 billion. *TUSAS Aerospace Industries (TAI) will be the main contractor and Alenia will be sub-contractor in the project, Gönül added, noting that the project would be called T-129 from now on, marking a Turco-Italian joint partnership in developing the helicopters.
> 
> Though the minister did not reveal the figures, Denel reportedly offered slightly less than 50 percent of Alenia's bid for the production of the helicopters with a high local content. With earlier speculation that the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) favored the US Apache or King Cobra for an off-the-shelf purchase, the SSM Executive Committee decision to select Italy's Alenia came as a surprise.



$2.7 billion for 50 helicopters means, $54 million each, but including licence production rights and so on, export price should be lower I would guess.


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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> I have some doubts about that! Turkey may have the intellectual and sale rightes *for this version*, but it is still a version of the Agosta Westland 129 and includes also an US engine. If the US won't allow production in Pakistan for their own helicopters and parts, why should they do it for foreign competitior?
> I think the WZ-10 would give more chances for such a licence production, maybe even upgraded with weapons, or avionics from Turkey.



For 40-50 helicopters, Pakistan would definitely not be looking at full home production, but it may look after producing some critical components which are needed regularly and are more critical sanctions prone. So that in case of any sanctions, we can produce them at home and not rely fully on abroad suppliers. 

Some local production would be needed by Pakistan to offset some critical sanction prone things. 

We can't digest such high tech at this stage of time, but we can become a supplier of critical parts for ourselves and also for the Turks if the platform has export success.

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## farhan_9909

i think till 2015 we would hav started our own attack heli program..

we dnt need wz-10 or Atak under TOT..

any one knw how much time it take to develop indegenous attack heli?

---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------

when we can import engine frm china for our attack heli?


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## IndianArmy

farhan_9909 said:


> i think till 2015 we would hav started our own attack heli program..
> 
> we dnt need wz-10 or Atak under TOT..
> 
> any one knw how much time it take to develop indegenous attack heli?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------
> 
> when we can import engine frm china for our attack heli?



Has Pakistan made a plan for Attack Heli, I dint know that, could You give its specs please??? I would like to read it.


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## mjnaushad

IndianArmy said:


> Has Pakistan made a plan for Attack Heli, I dint know that, could You give its specs please??? I would like to read it.


He said till 2015 we'll start our own heli program not production


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## farhan_9909

IndianArmy said:


> Has Pakistan made a plan for Attack Heli, I dint know that, could You give its specs please??? I would like to read it.



No we will start our own i am sure.
bt nt before 2014-15


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## IndianArmy

mjnaushad said:


> He said till 2015 we'll start our own heli program not production



I see, That would be a good Idea, But There must be Huge expertise In this field to Make this a Reality, Hope Pakistan Makes several joint Ventures and Grasp the Knowledge as fast as Possible.. Good Luck

---------- Post added at 04:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 PM ----------




farhan_9909 said:


> No we will start our own i am sure.
> bt nt before 2014-15



Yeah I get it ,I get it


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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> For 40-50 helicopters, Pakistan would definitely not be looking at full home production, *but it may look after producing some critical components which are needed regularly and are more critical sanctions prone.* So that in case of any sanctions, we can produce them at home and not rely fully on abroad suppliers.
> 
> Some local production would be needed by Pakistan to offset some critical sanction prone things.
> 
> We can't digest such high tech at this stage of time, but we can become a supplier of critical parts for ourselves and also for the Turks if the platform has export success.



True for avionics from Turkey maybe, but not critical engine parts from US right? And that's what I meant, if the aim would be to get a licence production, or a sanction prove solution, then the WZ-10 with avionics and weapons from Turkey would be the better choice.


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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> True for avionics from Turkey maybe, but not critical engine parts from US right? And that's what I meant, if the aim would be to get a licence production, or a sanction prove solution, then the WZ-10 with avionics and weapons from Turkey would be the better choice.



Agreed, but i don't think engine parts would be that much of an issue, Pakistan had sorted out such issues before also, will try to do it again. 

And as for avionics, well why not test the Chinese first, who knows they might have equal to or superior ones also. With what China is currently producing, it can be expected they are now a good avionics equipment with them. 

But Turkish avionics & weapons with Chinese ones is also a good option, but China has also made the HJ-10 ATGM said to be equal in performance to Hell Fire and similarly we have started to see quiet few of their newer PGM missiles.

So a fully Chinese system is also an option, but lately a lot of indication from even internal sources have pointed out at ATAK option, Chinese one will be seen as a last resort i believe or if PA tests it, then it may win over the Turkish one.


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## LegionnairE

sancho said:


> True for avionics from Turkey maybe, but not critical engine parts from US right? And that's what I meant, if the aim would be to get a licence production, or a sanction prove solution, then the WZ-10 with avionics and weapons from Turkey would be the better choice.


Turkey dont need to worry about any engine as TEI(Tusa&#351; Engine Industries inc.) can produce any aircraft engine under licence, but we must concentrate on new designs I think...

And If pakistan buys theese helos from Turkey, they can put any engine on it surely


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## sancho

LegionnairE said:


> Turkey dont need to worry about any engine as TEI(Tusa&#351; Engine Industries inc.) can produce any aircraft engine under licence, but we must concentrate on new designs I think...
> 
> And If pakistan buys theese helos from Turkey, they can put any engine on it surely



I never said that Turkey needs to worry, but as you said too, you can build them under licence only! So if Pakistan wants to buy this helicopter, the US is still the key, just like Italy will have a say too, because at the end it is still developed by them.
Turkey of course won't have problems with them, or the US, but the sale to Pakistan could still be difficult and for sure not sanction prove.

Turkey is a growing market and its defense industry is growing too, but just as India, you are still too dependend on foreign arms and techs. So just like India, it is in your interest to be less dependend and go for more indigenous developments. 
Another similarity both countries have is the relationship with US and Russia, although we might be closer to Russia and you to US, there are not many countries left in the world, that can benefit from weapons and techs of both sides! Mi 28 and Ka52 was on offer, S 300 and S400 are on offer now and maybe in future Turkey could get a chance to Pak Fa. 

Sorry, if I gone too off topic!


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## cabatli_53

sancho said:


> As you said too, you can build them under licence only! So if Pakistan wants to buy this helicopter, the US is still the key, just like Italy will have a say too, because at the end it is still developed by them.



Describing T-129 Atak program like that is not true because Italy and Turkey has been cooperating to develop T-129 Atak helicopter. Both Italy and Turkey have a say something When It is needed. You can see the emblem of TAI and Aselsan even in Agusta Westland's official webpage about T-129. 

About Licence, The fuselage production and further upgrades of this helicopter will be performed and certified by TAI and If TAI demands, TAI will give licence rights of T-129 for 3th countries to make them produce the components. I mean TAI is the owner of fuselage and design for 3th countries so All responsibilities-risk including certification of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI. That's why All intellectual and property rights of T-129 Atak and future versions belongs to TAI.

but Both country will export this helicopter with Turkish avionics, ECMS and missile systems. Hydrolic, gears and transmission development workshare belongs to Agusta Westland for export markets. 

I mean After this period, You will see the name of TAI at every phase of T-129 block-1, block-2 programs...


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## cabatli_53

TAI light helicopter program...


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## sancho

cabatli_53 said:


> Describing T-129 Atak program like that is not true because Italy and Turkey has been cooperating to develop T-129 Atak helicopter. *Both Italy and Turkey have a say something When It is needed*. You can see the emblem of TAI and Aselsan even in Agusta Westland's official webpage about T-129.



Hi cabatli_53, isn't that what I said too? That Italy will have a say in T129s too?



cabatli_53 said:


> About Licence, The fuselage production and further upgrades of this helicopter will be performed and certified by TAI and If TAI demands, *TAI will give licence rights of T-129 for 3th countries to make them produce the components. I mean TAI is the owner of fuselage and design *for 3th countries so All responsibilities-risk including certification of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI. That's why All intellectual and property rights of T-129 Atak and future versions belongs to TAI.



I have some big doubts about this, because the T129 is not a new co-developed helicopter with new design, or fuselage. It uses the AW129 as the base and improved several techs and capabilities, but exactly the design of the fuselage is still the same, so must belong to Agosta Westland. 
Just as you said before, TAI might have the intellectual and property rights of T129 and it's future uprgades, but only of this versions, or the differences it has to AW129!
Turkey might have the licence production rights for the fuselage, but can't provide it to others, whereas techs, or weapons developed by Turkey, of course can be build in Pakistan for example too.



cabatli_53 said:


> but Both country will export this helicopter with Turkish avionics, ECMS and missile systems. Hydrolic, gears and transmission *development workshare belongs to Agusta Westland for export markets. *



This also proves what I said, although this version of the AW129 was developed for TAI (and that should explain why it will have emblems of TAI), at the end it is still Agosta Westland as the main brain and company behind it.


----------



## Jigs

sancho said:


> Hi cabatli_53, isn't that what I said too? That Italy will have a say in T129s too?
> 
> 
> 
> I have some big doubts about this, because the T129 is not a new co-developed helicopter with new design, or fuselage. It uses the AW129 as the base and improved several techs and capabilities, but exactly the design of the fuselage is still the same, so must belong to Agosta Westland.
> Just as you said before, TAI might have the intellectual and property rights of T129 and it's future uprgades, but only of this versions, or the differences it has to AW129!
> Turkey might have the licence production rights for the fuselage, but can't provide it to others, whereas techs, or weapons developed by Turkey, of course can be build in Pakistan for example too.
> 
> 
> 
> This also proves what I said, although this version of the AW129 was developed for TAI (and that should explain why it will have emblems of TAI), at the end it is still Agosta Westland as the main brain and company behind it.



I suggest you read the agreements before speculating on what rights we have.

"Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform. There are also* no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries (excluding Italy and the United Kingdom)*"


----------



## sancho

Jigs said:


> I suggest you read the agreements before speculating on what rights we have.
> 
> "Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform. There are also* no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries (excluding Italy and the United Kingdom)*"




"*for the export, or transfer of the platform*", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.


----------



## Super Falcon

well i heared that turkey want to buy attack helicopters from other country 9 of them forgotenn the name of country


----------



## cabatli_53

sancho said:


> "*for the export, or transfer of the platform*", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.



You should read more things about T-129 Atak program because;

-TAI can choose the costumers and sell T-129 Atak whoever They want.
*-TAI can give the licence rights of production for 3th countries excluding England and Italy.*
-ATAK team including TAI is working together to design-develop T-129 Atak. T-129 will be more bigger (2m) fuselage than A-129. TAI has also joined into design phase of T-129 with Agusta. I mean every institues have some responsibilities to carry out in this team but At the end, All rights of final product called T-129 will belongs to TAI and Agusta Westland.

and All responsibilities of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI, not Agusta...


----------



## Jigs

sancho said:


> "*for the export, or transfer of the platform*", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.



If course we can provide parts we are the ones producing them. Obviously the initial design is Italian no one is denying that. T-129 is a highly upgraded variant that Turkey will be manufacturing. It is similar to the deal with the F-2 with Japan and the U.S. . The difference being we can export the T-129 to other countries meaning we are the ones selling them not Italy so it is our own platform based off an Italian one. 

I am a little confused by what point your trying to make. If pakistan picks the T-129 we are the ones that will be producing and delivering them and we will be getting the money for it. What more is needed ?


----------



## cabatli_53

With the Collaboration Agreement, signed between TAI and AgustaWestland,* let alone having the right to use and administer the intellectual property of the T129 ATAK Helicopter, TAI shall be the sole source for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter.* *The Collaboration Agreement also provides TAI with the right to sell and market the T129 ATAK Helicopter worldwide.*

The Contract Of The ATAK Program Becomes Effective | INTERNATIONAL AVIATION NEWS


----------



## cabatli_53

> "for the export, or transfer of the platform", which means, Turkey has the right to choose the export customers for T129, but it doesn't say, that the design belong to TAI, nor that they can provide customers the production of parts, Turkey/TAI does not developed.



*Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.*
ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success


--------------------------

TAI shall be *the sole source for its work share* under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter. 

http://www.aviationnews.eu/2008/06/24/the-contract-of-the-atak-program-becomes-effective/


Not: The workshare of TAI is designment of Fuselage with Agusta and *sole production of all body components*, integrating Aselsan electronics, avionics into fuselage, certification...

------------------------------

January 2009 while the *Preliminary Design Review is ongoing*. The new dedicated facility, staffed by more than* 70 Turkish and AgustaWestland integrated team technicians*, comprises an assembly area for the T129 prototypes as well as office space for the *T129 team members*. The entire facility has been designed to bring together the *integrated team into a single location to enable all industry partners to work together in a highly efficient manner.*

http://www.agustawestland.com/news/agustawestland-opens-new-dedicated-t129-facility


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## cabatli_53

DSA 2010 TAI stand


----------



## cabatli_53

From Old TAI official webpage;

With the Collaboration Agreement signed with AgustaWestland, TAI shall have;

&#183; *Intellectual property rights of the new configuration* of the helicopter

&#183; * Sole sourcing rights in the world for the fuselage, including Final Assembly and Flight Operations*

&#183; *Sales rights for the whole world excluding Italy and England* 


I think those 3 items explain what we are talking about in here...


-----------------------

TAI will also become the sole source for the production of the whole fuselage, including final assembly and flight operations, and will be responsible for marketing the &#8220;T-129 attack helicopters&#8221; to the world

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/turkey-shortlists-2-attack-helicopters-updated-02397/


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## sancho

Super Falcon said:


> well i heared that turkey want to buy attack helicopters from other country 9 of them forgotenn the name of country


9 AW 129 from Italy, which makes sense because of the commonality to T129:

Turkey To Buy 9 European A129 Attack Helicopters - Defense News




Jigs said:


> If course we can provide parts we are the ones producing them. Obviously *the initial design is Italian* no one is denying that. *T-129 is a highly upgraded variant that Turkey will be manufacturing*. It is similar to the deal with the F-2 with Japan and the U.S. . *The difference being we can export the T-129 to other countries meaning we are the ones selling them not Italy so it is our own platform based off an Italian one*.
> 
> I am a little confused by what point your trying to make. If pakistan picks the T-129 we are the ones that will be producing and delivering them and we will be getting the money for it. What more is needed ?



That's exaclty what I said too, I only said that it is doubtful that Turkey can give licence production rights to foreign customers, without the approval of Italy, because at the end it is still an Italian developed helicopter.
Turkey can sale T129 to export customers, but will produce all parts in Turkey, that's why it's a great deal for Turkey. 




cabatli_53 said:


> -TAI can give the licence rights of production for 3th countries excluding England and Italy.



This is the excerpt that Jigs posted:



> Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform. There are also no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries



Can you explain where it says anything regarding licences for 3rd countries?



cabatli_53 said:


> -ATAK team including TAI is working together to design-develop T-129 Atak. T-129 will be more bigger (2m) fuselage than A-129. TAI has also joined into design phase of T-129 with Agusta. I mean every institues have some responsibilities to carry out in this team but At the end, All rights of final product called T-129 will belongs to TAI and Agusta Westland.
> 
> and All responsibilities of T-129 Atak program belongs to TAI, not Agusta...



The fuselage is bigger to house the new engines, but the design of the helicopter didn't change, only the integrated techs and weapons. 
Compare it to the WAH Apache that AW produces, it also has different engines, weapons and techs, but is still only a version of the Apache, not a new helicopter. The advantage that Turkey has, is the licence production and sale rights, that the US would never provide.
It's undeniable a good development for Turkey, but it still is a version of the AW129 and that's why licences to 3rd countries will only possible with Italian approval.


----------



## cabatli_53

sancho said:


> 9 AW 129 from Italy, which makes sense because of the commonality to T129:
> 
> Turkey To Buy 9 European A129 Attack Helicopters - Defense News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's exaclty what I said too, I only said that it is doubtful that Turkey can give licence production rights to foreign customers, without the approval of Italy, because at the end it is still an Italian developed helicopter.
> Turkey can sale T129 to export customers, but will produce all parts in Turkey, that's why it's a great deal for Turkey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the excerpt that Jigs posted:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain where it says anything regarding licences for 3rd countries?
> 
> 
> 
> The fuselage is bigger to house the new engines, but the design of the helicopter didn't change, only the integrated techs and weapons.
> Compare it to the WAH Apache that AW produces, it also has different engines, weapons and techs, but is still only a version of the Apache, not a new helicopter. The advantage that Turkey has, is the licence production and sale rights, that the US would never provide.
> It's undeniable a good development for Turkey, but it still is a version of the AW129 and that's why licences to 3rd countries will only possible with Italian approval.




There are somthing that I will always tell but You will never understand cause of some politic and nationalistic reasons with T-129 Atak program. I have posted many source proving what I have told in previous pages but You are already giving me WAH Apache example to explain the T-129 Atak program...

It is true that WAH Apache is the licence built version of Apache helicopters because There is an Apache helicopter that is being produced by USA. All intellectual and property rights of both WAH and Apache helicopters are belongs to USA. Italy can not do, export,give licence anywhere without USA approval. 

but T-129 is completely different story than what I have told about WaH Apache above. TAI has many responsibilities for T-129 Atak heicopter as Owner of T-129 Atak program. There is not any other institue in world which will produce the parts of T-129 (TAI workshare) different than TAI. I mean TAI is the sole producer of fuselage for T-129 but Agusta is not for WAH. 

That's why TAI shall be the *sole source* for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter.



> *Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.*
> ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success





> With the Collaboration Agreement signed with AgustaWestland, TAI shall have;
> 
> &#183; *Intellectual property rights of the new configuration* of the helicopter
> 
> &#183; * Sole sourcing rights in the world for the fuselage, including Final Assembly and Flight Operations*
> 
> &#183; *Sales rights for the whole world excluding Italy and England*





> TA&#304; will also hold the* copyright of the new helicopters (T-129)* while becoming the *sole source in the world for the production of their bodies, including final assembly and flight procedures*, said the TA&#304; statement.
> 
> http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=7489


*
According to " Sole source " Words. What does it mean for you ? Agusta is the sole source for WAH Apache helicopters around the world ? No... but TAI is sole responsible institue for producing-exporting all fuselage, ceritication, tests and education for Turkey and the countries locating all around the World excluding Italy and England because Eng. and Italy is the owner orf Agusta-Westland... *

I do not suppose you will understand what I have told above but At least, Try to read the official sources I have posted above...

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## cabatli_53

Contrary to what you claimed, At present, TAI officials are talking with S. Korean co-workers to share the technology of T-129 for S. Korean attack helicopter development program. If An agreement signs, TAI will share the fuselage technologies(TAI workshare) of T-129 with S. Korea with a satisfying price...


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## sancho

cabatli_53 said:


> There are somthing that I will always tell but You will never understand cause of some politic and nationalistic reasons with T-129 Atak program. I have posted many source proving what I have told in previous pages but You are already giving me WAH Apache example to explain the T-129 Atak program...
> 
> It is true that WAH Apache is the licence built version of Apache helicopters because There is an Apache helicopter that is being produced by USA. All intellectual and property rights of both WAH and Apache helicopters are belongs to USA. Italy can not do, export,give licence anywhere without USA approval.
> 
> but T-129 is completely different story than what I have told about WaH Apache above. TAI has many responsibilities for T-129 Atak heicopter as Owner of T-129 Atak program. There is not any other institue in world which will produce the parts of T-129 (TAI workshare) different than TAI. I mean TAI is the sole producer of fuselage for T-129 but Agusta is not for WAH.
> 
> That's why TAI shall be the sole source for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter.



No they are not completely different stories, in fact the technical differences are even pretty similar (new engines, avionics and weapons, but same design). The only real difference is, that the WAH Apache was not meant for exports, but the T129 is, that's why TAI can manufacture parts for exports and AW not.

Please understand that I never denied that TAI is the sole manufacturer of T129, I only said they are not the developer and therefore I doubt they can offer licence production to other nations, without approval of AW/Italy. 



cabatli_53 said:


> Contrary to what you claimed, At present, TAI officials are talking with S. Korean co-workers to share the technology of T-129 for S. Korean attack helicopter development program. If An agreement signs, TAI will share the fuselage technologies(TAI workshare) of T-129 with S. Korea with a satisfying price...



Interesting, can you provide a source?


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## cabatli_53

sancho said:


> No they are not completely different stories, in fact the technical differences are even pretty similar (new engines, avionics and weapons, but same design). The only real difference is, that the WAH Apache was not meant for exports, but the T129 is, that's why TAI can manufacture parts for exports and AW not.



Both program is different stories in terms of project model and collaboration of both country to create a new one. 



sancho said:


> Please understand that I never denied that TAI is the sole manufacturer of T129, I only said they are not the developer and therefore I doubt they can offer licence production to other nations, without approval of AW/Italy.



TAI is not only a sole source for its workshare but also Developer institue for T-129 Atak program with Agusta. Wheather T-129 is based on A-129 fuselage but more bigger and longer, or not, At final, The helicopter which will be developed will be the new Attack helicopter of both Agusta and TAI. Licences will be seperated in accordance with their workshares.




> January 2009 while the *Preliminary Design Review is ongoing.* The new dedicated facility, staffed by *more than 70 Turkish and AgustaWestland integrated team technicians*, comprises an assembly area for the T129 prototypes as well as office space for the *T129 team members*. The entire facility has been designed to bring together the integrated team into a single location to enable all industry partners to work together in a highly efficient manner.
> 
> http://www.agustawestland.com/news/a...-t129-facility








sancho said:


> Interesting, can you provide a source?



I will try to find one !!!


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## cabatli_53

> Gul said Turkey was selling simulators to South Korea, and was willing to sell Turkish Attack and Reconnaissance (ATAK) helicopters to that country.
> 
> The ATAK helicopter project was worth 2.5 billion USD, and South Korea was carrying out an investigation regarding the project, Gul said.
> 
> Gul also said South Korea was also interested in Apache helicopters.
> 
> Gul says Turkey, S.Korea must sign free trade deal this year [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]



It is about Korean Light Attack Helicopter development program... If an agreement signs, The institues with its workshare (TAI-Agusta) under the Atak helicopter program, will share money S. Korea paid. It will be same If Agusta-Westland itself will make an agreement with other countries to sell T-129 Atak...


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## Imran Khan

sir cabatli_53 any info abut incedent report of T-129 few weeks before . i just wanna know what was happen to that bird.

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## cabatli_53

Imran Khan said:


> sir cabatli_53 any info abut incedent report of T-129 few weeks before . i just wanna know what was happen to that bird.



I did not hear any official crash report but It is stated by officials that The problem was about loss of power to the tail rotor While flying at an elevation of 4500ft in N. Italy.

The officials are planning to perform remained trials with A-129 CBT helicopter hired from Italian army. Otherwise, Institues will have to wait until 2011 to keep proceeding the program...


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## cabatli_53

Before crash of T-129 P-1, The trials was being performed in high and cold mountainy areas...


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## Imran Khan

damn it was wrong time until now i think .

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## cabatli_53

Imran Khan said:


> damn it was wrong time until now i think .



Yes indeed bro. We need hundreds of them at present because PKK is running wild again and We started discovering new rivals or enemies After Greece.


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## Imran Khan

cabatli_53 said:


> Yes indeed bro. We need hundreds of them at present because PKK is running wild again and We started discovering new rivals or enemies After Greece.



turkey can handlle pkk without t-129 also very well. i just wanna see t-129 mass production ASAP and see our bad luck is p-1 got crash damn if its never happen few more months we can got more good news. now i think it will little late for check properly why its got crash.but any way don't you worry

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Imran Khan said:


> turkey can handlle pkk without t-129 also very well. i just wanna see t-129 mass production ASAP and see our bad luck is p-1 got crash damn if its never happen few more months we can got more good news. now i think it will little late for check properly why its got crash.but any way don't you worry



We are naiive to think that Pakistan is in this war for anything other than the ''long haul'' against TTP

similarly, Turkiye has been dealing with PKK for decades. The suicide bombing campaigns of 1980s, when even young girls were forced to carry out suicide bombs in exchange for their families being spared from PKK. 

They operate in very rugged terrain, which extends into Northern Iraq where fighters slip in and outside the not very well marcated borders (similar our situation with Afghanistan).

Turkiye to a large extent has relied on TuAF to handle ground attack missions, though they also do require attack choppers for monitoring and engaging. In conjunction with the UMTAS missile (which is basically as capable as Hellfire IMHO) it is a formidable platform

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## sancho

cabatli_53 said:


> Both program is different stories in terms of project model and collaboration of both country to create a new one.



Why? Boeing gave the base helicopter and assisted in integration of new techs and weapons, so did AW now on T129. As I said the difference is not the uprgade of the helicopter, but the export approval that the US would never provide to a foreign customer.




cabatli_53 said:


> TAI is not only a sole source for its workshare but also Developer institue for T-129 Atak program with Agusta. Wheather T-129 is based on A-129 fuselage but more bigger and longer, or not, At final, The helicopter which will be developed will be the new Attack helicopter of both Agusta and TAI. Licences will be seperated in accordance with their workshares.



See, that is the point where we have different opinions, because I don't see the T129 as a completely new helicopter, it is just an upgraded AW129. If AW had funded it alone, there would be no discussion about it right? TAI just joind with funds and it's workshare to upgrade it, but that doesn't make it a new helicopter, or an equal development partner.
However, feel free to disagree, everyone can have it's own opinion right?




cabatli_53 said:


> It is about Korean Light Attack Helicopter development program... If an agreement signs, The institues with its workshare (TAI-Agusta) under the Atak helicopter program, will share money S. Korea paid. It will be same If Agusta-Westland itself will make an agreement with other countries to sell T-129 Atak...



The source says only that T129 could be sold to S. Korea, but nothing about providing workshares, or anything like that. It's not even mentioned how many helicopters they want right?


----------



## cabatli_53

sancho said:


> Why? Boeing gave the base helicopter and assisted in integration of new techs and weapons, so did AW now on T129. As I said the difference is not the uprgade of the helicopter, but the export approval that the US would never provide to a foreign customer.



If WAH Apache and Atak programs are same in terms of collaboration of institues and Only export policies make the differences, Would you please show me the Agusta Westland's emblem in Boeing official webpage as Owner of WAH version ? You can see TAI in Agusta's webpage because T-129 is being owned by both TAI and Agusta and Licence rights of this new copter belongs to both Agusta and TAI forever. After TAI passed to serial production phase, There won't be any attack helicopter called A-129 in brends in Italy as well because Both institue will export T-129 Atak for international markets. 

but AH-64 is on export markets under the name of Boeing.






sancho said:


> See, that is the point where we have different opinions, because I don't see the T129 as a completely new helicopter, it is just an upgraded AW129. If AW had funded it alone, there would be no discussion about it right? TAI just joind with funds and it's workshare to upgrade it, but that doesn't make it a new helicopter, or an equal development partner.
> However, feel free to disagree, everyone can have it's own opinion right?



Whether T-129 is an upgraded version of A-129 with more bigger fuselage or not, That's not the real point of mine because At final, The helicopter developed by those team will be OWNED by both TAI and Agusta. Both institue is performing its mission charged by agreements they have signed so We call it like equal development partners...






sancho said:


> The source says only that T129 could be sold to S. Korea, but nothing about providing workshares, or anything like that. It's not even mentioned how many helicopters they want right?




Yes, Turkish President was in S. Korea to talk about cooperation issues about T-129 as an equal partner of T-129 with Italy... I accept that The source is a littile bit poor but I told you what It is introduced about likely T-129 cooperation between S. Korean by safe defence magazines...


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## rbaxter

Thank you for this comprehensive posting... btw does anyone know if/when Turkey will buy T129?


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## cabatli_53

rbaxter said:


> Thank you for this comprehensive posting... btw does anyone know if/when Turkey will buy T129?









2013 will be the year when First T-129's will be delivered to Turkish army...

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## rbaxter

cabatli_53 said:


> 2013 will be the year when First T-129's will be delivered to Turkish army...



Cabatli, much obliged 

Is there a newspaper link for this news?


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## cabatli_53

rbaxter said:


> Cabatli, much obliged
> 
> Is there a newspaper link for this news?




Read first page please !!!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-f...tack-helicopter-being-eveluated-pakistan.html

A-129 CBT in IDEF-2007. A Loudy Take-off !!!


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## Super Falcon

well it still have been evaluated how many years PA need to sign the deal some times they want tiger than apaches than ATAK what the hell they are doing


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## cabatli_53

Super Falcon said:


> well it still have been evaluated how many years PA need to sign the deal some times they want tiger than apaches than ATAK what the hell they are doing



I think If The president of Pakistan was Pervez Musharref, We have already started working on multiple areas from air defence systems to land platforms...

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## S_O_C_O_M

*PICTURE: Turkey's first T129 attack helicopter crashes *

By Tolga Ozbek

The first prototype of AgustaWestland's T129 attack helicopter being developed for Turkey crashed on the afternoon of 19 March during a test flight, leaving its Italian test pilot and its test engineer needing hospital treatment for minor injuries.

Early indications point to a loss of power to the tail rotor while flying at an elevation of 1,500ft (455m) near Verbania in northern Italy. Investigation of the incident will focus on establishing the exact cause of the power failure.






The $3 billion ATAK project, based on the A129 Mangusta, is likely to be delayed because of the crash. The deal was signed in 2008, and the first prototype, P1, made its first flight in September 2009. Turkey has ordered 50 production T129s for delivery from 2013 and has options on another 41.

AgustaWestland will make two T129 prototypes in Italy, after which manufacture will shift to its Turkish partner TAI. The aircraft will be equipped with Turkish-made systems including electronics, forward-looking infrared sensor, cockpit avionics and mission computer from Aselsan, and weapon systems from Roketsan.






PICTURE: Turkey's first T129 attack helicopter crashes


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## rbaxter

cabatli_53 said:


> Read first page please !!!



oops, 

thank you for the note. 

Here is a current article just FYI (I can't post a URL yet but you will find it on todays zaman dot com


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## Kompromat

The crashed helo was not T-129 pt01 but it was A-129 .


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## ironman

Black Blood said:


> The crashed helo was not T-129 pt01 but it was A-129 .



Please prove that..


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## Jigs

^^^ No it was the T-129 prototype. A-129 thing got started by some people that were confused about variants. If you look at the crashed helicopter you can see the LHTEC CTS800-4A engines on it. Also there is another picture of the front where you can see the Aselsan AselFLIR-300. It went down while conducting high altitude testing. The tail rotor was lost.


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## Kompromat

ironman said:


> Please prove that..



TRT - A-129 Mangusta helicopter crashes in Italy


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## TaimiKhan

Black Blood said:


> TRT - A-129 Mangusta helicopter crashes in Italy



It was the T-129 Pt-01 which had crashed. Here see the below pic and see the engine intake, this engine intake was seen only on the T-129 prototype. Even though this picture is trying to differentiate by pointing to landing gear area, but engine intake is the clearest difference.


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## Agent X

Super Falcon said:


> atleast 30 helicopters each to counter indian threat from lands of punjab and desert of sindh and in desert they willl be good *becoz indian tanks will not move very smoothly in desert specially arjun dont know about T 90*



What do you mean? MBT Arjun won't move smoothly coz T 129 will hunt them or they simply can't move in desert???



cabatli_53 said:


> Hello Brothers...
> 
> Thnaks for your great news BlackBlood brother... In future, We are going to see P-129's in Pakstan Land forces inventory indeed...
> 
> 
> Addition information about T-129:
> 
> It is also reported that Undesecretariat of Turkish defence industry officials have offically visited Jordan to talk about T-129 Atak and Requirements of Jordan military... I mean Those news and sources are reflecting completely truths...
> 
> 
> *and It is also reported that Indian officials are also evaluating to order some T-129 Atak... It must be a politic move of Indian authorities against Pakistan...
> *
> 
> Regards...



Any Link or saw in ur dream?



cabatli_53 said:


> Brother, Which questions must I answer about Atak?
> 
> 
> 
> Bro, We have also disscussed this subject with my Turkish forumers..
> 
> The Results...
> 
> *1- Reject the offers of Indians directly cause of Pakistani brothers
> 2- Ask Pakistani officials whether T-129 shoud be exported or not...
> 3- Anothers told that We should export some T-129's to India with Turkish source-codes, Then, We must give those source-codes to Pakistani officials to chance T-129's a flying tin at a possible conflict...  *
> 
> 
> Whichone Do you prefer bro ?






Super Falcon said:


> india want to buy atak it must be the joke as a friend can turkey sell this to india cabati can u naswer





Black Blood said:


> Haha , I think they have not learned any lessons from the Naval guns refusal from Turkey



Well chil out you all.....still no creditable link have been posted yet that india asked for T whatever helicopters and you guys already bouncing  on your feet how turkey rejected india's proposal of buying these helicopters. i don't think India would be interested in turkish helicopters as turkey have no experience in the field of making attack helicopters. true we need some attack helicopters but we have some options better then t 129 you know Ka 52, Super cobra, tiger etc. and don't forget lch is gonna be ready soon which will be equal if not better then the turkish one.


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## mjnaushad

Agent X said:


> ...





> What do you mean? MBT Arjun won't move smoothly coz T 129 will hunt them or they simply can't move in desert???



Choose which ever you like





> Any Link or saw in ur dream?



I wish you had some manners of talking. Before speaking please make sure who you are talking to. You had doubt on his statement a simple _*Any link*_ would have done the job but .......








[/QUOTE]


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## Jango

Barrett said:


> What happened to the Tiger deal ?



The Tiger deal was never really in serious contention because it was expensive and the spares were available in europe adding to more costs....


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## Jango

The T129 is a good heli.....but the AH 1Z viper (upgrade of cobra) is to be bought in 2015 nad it is sure....so the T129 could be the backbone and the AH 1Z could be in a supporting role...the Turkish helo is a good cost effective solution and it is also a country with which pakistan has good cordial relations and hence spare parts can also be bought easily and also the training!!a good package overall


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## Agent X

mjnaushad said:


> Choose which ever you like



T 129 will hunt India's MBT : Can be i mean not impossible but if he mean MBT Arjun can't move in the desert smoothly i would like to tell both of you arjun is made specially for the desert.












> I wish you had some manners of talking. Before speaking please make sure who you are talking to. You had doubt on his statement a simple _*Any link*_ would have done the job but .......



Oh i am so sorry i didn't knew i was talking to turkish defence minister who is a reliable source of any stupid claim himself like how India *secretly* asked for their stuff and how they *secretly* rejected it so now all turkey can laugh on India. 

Anyway you are right a simple "Any Link" could be more then enough if he just claim India asked for the helicopter but look at him he is making fun of India coz of his own false claim which isn't proven yet that's definitely not acceptable until he didn't give any source to back up his claim. He can be sooooo respectful person for pakistanis for bashing india but he isn't for me I hope you heard this line "Give respect and take respect".


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## LEO99

people plz stop your wet dreams about arjun tanks ,wake up !!!!!!!


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## somebozo

looks very much like cobra
Turkey can become a major no strings attacked arms supplier to Pakistan. After all both countries majority is composed of martial race


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## Donatello

RRifiles said:


> people plz stop your wet dreams about arjun tanks ,wake up !!!!!!!





Wait......are you referring to yourself and your countrymen...or what?


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## Jigs

somebozo said:


> looks very much like cobra
> Turkey can become a major no strings attacked arms supplier to Pakistan. After all both countries majority is composed of martial race



Preformance compared to the Super Cobra.

T-129

Performance


* Cruise speed: 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
* Range: 561 km (303 nmi, 341 mi)
* Ferry range: 1,000 km (540 nmi, 620 mi)
* Service ceiling: 6,096 m (20,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 14.0 m/s (2,750 ft/min)



AH-1W Super Cobra


Performance

* Maximum speed: 190 knots (218 mph, 352 km/h)
* Range: 317 nmi (365 mi, 587 km)
* Service ceiling: 12,200 ft (3,720 m)
* Rate of climb: 1,620 ft/min (8.2 m/s)

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## somebozo

well this is first gen..the next one will be an improvement. no one can beat cobra in first attempt.


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## Rajput Warrior

somebozo said:


> well this is first gen..the next one will be an improvement. no one can beat cobra in first attempt.



really? any sources ... or maybe ur a defence expert frm N.D.U national defence university,islamabad?


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## Jigs

somebozo said:


> well this is first gen..the next one will be an improvement. no one can beat cobra in first attempt.



I think you should check it again rate of climb and maximum altitude put the super cobra to shame. Range is pretty much the same. I am trying to find the maximum speed of the T-129.


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## Jungibaaz

somebozo said:


> well this is first gen..the next one will be an improvement. no one can beat cobra in first attempt.



The Turks are more than capable of making a cobra, 
they make their own block 60s for God sake!

I hope we buy some of these beasts....


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## Rajput Warrior

jungi they dnt make block 60!


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## cabatli_53

Agent X said:


> Any Link or saw in ur dream?



Yes, It was told me in my dream by Undersecretariat of Turkish defence industry to introduce such a special and likely cooperation news in PDF...  

Joke a side, It was treated one of Turkish Defence Magazine called MSI Military Science & Intelligence Magazine / MSI. If you want to see more, I can post the page of related magazine...

Savunma Haber, Milscint, Savunma, MSI, Askeri, Havac&#253;l&#253;k, Uzay, Ter&#246;r, Silah, Elektronik, Harp, Teknoloji, Army, Military, Science, Intelligence, Strateji, Kara, Hava, Jandarma, Deniz, Kuvvetleri


but It is really interesting How such news make some of Indians crazy. Why ? We are talking about a likely cooperation between Turkey-India. What's wrong man ?

Maybe, You want to hear something like Turkey will share all technologies of T-129 with India to use them against Pakistan but How type a mind can rely on such a nonsense ? Do not you know that Turkey never acts against Pakistan politically/militarily and never fall into a trap, Even If It is about an agreement worth billion $ ? so We have just told How Turkey will act If India really purchases some of T-129 Atak in accordance with our percpectives. Do not be angry to us.. Those are truths !





Agent X said:


> Well chil out you all.....still no creditable link have been posted yet that india asked for T whatever helicopters and you guys already bouncing  on your feet how turkey rejected india's proposal of buying these helicopters. i don't think India would be interested in turkish helicopters as turkey have no experience in the field of making attack helicopters. true we need some attack helicopters but we have some options better then t 129 you know Ka 52, Super cobra, tiger etc. and don't forget lch is gonna be ready soon which will be equal if not better then the turkish one.



First of all, Turkey did not rejected Indian interest on T-129 Atak for the present. I just stated that One of a Turkish defence magazine treated that India is interested in T-129 Atak helicopters. Rests are related with member's comments.

Secondly, If you want to learn How capable Turkish industry are, when it comes to helicopters, Check related threads and other ongoing helicopter programs and their subsystems and remember Italy (Agusta) as a partner of Atak team. Spreading nonsense personnel statements in terms of comparing a system with equivalents without presenting any technical specifications about a system in order to throw something dirty on an ongoing program do not make any sense. BTW, Next time, Do not forget to classify helicopters like Light/Heavy weight in order to add the proper helicopters in proper categories to compare themselves among eachothers...

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## cabatli_53

Jigs said:


> I think you should check it again rate of climb and maximum altitude put the super cobra to shame. Range is pretty much the same. I am trying to find the maximum speed of the T-129.


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## somebozo

Indians releation with many countries is economic kind and Pakistan's in milltary and strategic kind. If Turkey sell choppers to India it will be purely business.


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## cabatli_53

It is Turkish but Terminological symbols may give some cue to see What it is about...


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## Jigs

cabatli_53 said:


>



That chart is wrong about the range. AH-1W does have a little bit of a longer range.

---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------




cabatli_53 said:


> It is Turkish but Terminological symbols may give some cue to see What it is about...



This is much more accurate.


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## Donatello

somebozo said:


> Indians releation with many countries is economic kind and Pakistan's in milltary and strategic kind. If Turkey sell choppers to India it will be purely business.





If Turkey sells Attack choppers to India, then Pakistan Army will never buy it. I mean when was the last time Pakistan and India operated the same equipment?


I think Kayani has sealed the deal with US for AH1Z..........It might become available in 2014-15 that's what they are saying. Time to renew our US-Pakistan military aid thing. Last major thing was done with F-16s...so i am sure until 2015 they have to give us something. That's 5 years!

The war is still far from over....at least two more years of NATO engagement..meaning two years of Pakistan's cooperation.


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## Agent X

cabatli_53 said:


> Joke a side, It was treated one of Turkish Defence Magazine called MSI Military Science & Intelligence Magazine / MSI. If you want to see more, I can post the page of related magazine...
> 
> Savunma Haber, Milscint, Savunma, MSI, Askeri, Havacýlýk, Uzay, Terör, Silah, Elektronik, Harp, Teknoloji, Army, Military, Science, Intelligence, Strateji, Kara, Hava, Jandarma, Deniz, Kuvvetleri



I didn't understand even a single word there. if india really asked for your helicopters this is a big news i am sure you have some other link which i can at least understand.



> but It is really interesting How such news make some of Indians crazy. Why ? We are talking about a likely cooperation between Turkey-India. What's wrong man ?



sale helicopters to india and give the source codes to pakistanis grrrr we don't need ur *"cooperation"* just keep it in your pocket. 



> Maybe, You want to hear something like Turkey will share all technologies of T-129 with India to use them against Pakistan but How type a mind can rely on such a nonsense ?



May be you want india to join the project and make helicopter more lethal so u would be able to call it actual attack helicopter.............man how type a mind can rely on such nonsense?

Well all can make useless post you aren't the only one.




> *Do not you know that Turkey never acts against Pakistan politically/militarily and never fall into a trap, Even If It is about an agreement worth billion $ ?* so We have just told How Turkey will act If India really purchases some of T-129 Atak in accordance with our perspectives. Do not be angry to us.. Those are truths




as far as bold part is concerned We will see when you will actually reject that big offer i mean i can also claim india will reject worth 1000billion dollars agreement against Israel but that won't be true i am sure if tomorrow some middle eastern country ask to buy few akash sam or some other Indian equipments DRDO will sale it. neither it's me who run DRDO nor it's you who own ur defence industry called TAI "if i am not wrong."

and yes i am not angry at all you made that chopper plz feel free to decide whom you wana sale it. if you want you can sale it to pakistan or can give it for free i really don't care until you don't involve india in your text without any reason. 






> First of all, Turkey did not rejected Indian interest on T-129 Atak for the present. I just stated that One of a Turkish defence magazine treated that India is interested in T-129 Atak helicopters. Rests are related with member's comments.



that magazine say nothing about any deal with India.



> Secondly, If you want to learn How capable Turkish industry are, when it comes to helicopters, Check related threads and other ongoing helicopter programs and their subsystems and remember Italy (Agusta) as a partner of Atak team. Spreading nonsense personnel statements in terms of comparing a system with equivalents without presenting any technical specifications about a system in order to throw something dirty on an ongoing program do not make any sense. BTW, Next time, Do not forget to classify helicopters like Light/Heavy weight in order to add the proper helicopters in proper categories to compare themselves among eachothers...



Congratulations to you if u have can make a good helicopter but still i can't understand why Indians should be bother about that.?


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## muse

> but It is really interesting How such news make some of Indians crazy. Why ? We are talking about a likely cooperation between Turkey-India. What's wrong man ?




I've been trying to understand this - some Indian say it's because they are more "confident" -- Just how confident it is to be so insecure escapes me.


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## Arsalan

penumbra said:


> If Turkey sells Attack choppers to India, then Pakistan Army will never buy it. I mean when was the last time Pakistan and India operated the same equipment?
> 
> 
> I think Kayani has sealed the deal with US for AH1Z..........It might become available in 2014-15 that's what they are saying. Time to renew our US-Pakistan military aid thing. Last major thing was done with F-16s...so i am sure until 2015 they have to give us something. That's 5 years!
> 
> The war is still far from over....at least two more years of NATO engagement..meaning two years of Pakistan's cooperation.



Indian_turkish T-129 deal 
its all crap!!

India wont ever be going for equipment from a nation with friendly ties with Pakistan, morover turkey wont be sailing the goodies to annoy Pakistan.

saying all this the most important point will be that India is already in quite a mess with US on one side and Russians on the other of there major defence deals. they have to be on good terms with one and this will piss of the other!
Indians are wise enough not to spoil the new born frined ship with US by going for T-129 instead of Apache!

dont tell me that Indians may go for it in small numbers just to disturbe Pakistani deal.
i dont agree, Indian economy might be going good but with millios of mouths demanded to be fed, they are not such a tuphoon to go spendind millions of $$$ just to diturbe other nations deals!!


i hope i have made my point of vie clear to all you brothers!

regards!

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## cabatli_53

Agent X said:


> I didn't understand even a single word there. if india really asked for your helicopters this is a big news i am sure you have some other link which i can at least understand.



Mr. Dreamer, I did not post it to make you saw everything about this news. It is the link of magazine that related news issued in Turkish...





Agent X said:


> sale helicopters to india and give the source codes to pakistanis grrrr we don't need ur *"cooperation"* just keep it in your pocket.



You know If you are talking about a willing from Indian side about a strategic system to purchase againt brother Pakistan, It is an obligation for Turkey to inform Pakistani brothers about How Turkey have to act. Otherwise, The PM or minister who wants to export such critical systems to India without issuing any conditions against a brother state is assessed by Turkish nation like digging own grave... 





Agent X said:


> May be you want india to join the project and make helicopter more lethal so u would be able to call it actual attack helicopter.............man how type a mind can rely on such nonsense?
> 
> Well all can make useless post you aren't the only one.



Mate, T-129 is being developed by ATAK team which TAI, Aselsan and Agusta Westland included into this team. India can not offer anything to this program different than fund. About lethality of Helo, Do not worry about it, Roketsan always performs great job about AT and Anti-personnel missiles...







Agent X said:


> as far as bold part is concerned We will see when you will actually reject that big offer i mean i can also claim india will reject worth 1000billion dollars agreement against Israel but that won't be true i am sure if tomorrow some middle eastern country ask to buy few akash sam or some other Indian equipments DRDO will sale it. neither it's me who run DRDO nor it's you who own ur defence industry called TAI "if i am not wrong."



Sorry but All those your dreams have nothing to do with the actual point of this thread and not make any sense. I hope DRDO will catch great export success but Neither your success in World, nor development of Akash missiles do not affect any of achievements of Turkish defence industry. I do not know Italian effect over sales but I am just talking about How Turkish side will act, When India wants to deal with Turkey about T-129 Atak. You know It is time tasted. 



Agent X said:


> and yes i am not angry at all you made that chopper plz feel free to decide whom you wana sale it. if you want you can sale it to pakistan or can give it for free i really don't care until you don't involve india in your text without any reason.



We are taking about likely cooperations about T-129 Atak between Pakistan and Turkey in this thread and As I have told thousands of times that A Turkish defence magazine called MSI issued a news like *"India is interested in T-129 ATAK" *. *That's a reason why We have treated it*. After introduced it in this thrad, We made some *mind exercises over it*. It is you jumped into thread with all those nonsense sentences but Do not worry, There is not any deal in sight. 




> that magazine say nothing about any deal with India.



Yes It says something about Indian willing for T-129 Atak...



> Congratulations to you if u have can make a good helicopter but still i can't understand why Indians should be bother about that.?



Anybody did not bother us but Some facts should have been known by everybody in threads. Even If It is about agreement worth billion $, *Turkey CAN NOT export* such critical and strategical systems to countries like Armenia, Iran, India against brother countries, Turks have connected with deep historical ties to the countries We call like *BROTHER* in terms of blood or religious factors.


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## cabatli_53

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Indian_turkish T-129 deal
> its all crap!!
> 
> India wont ever be going for equipment from a nation with friendly ties with Pakistan, morover turkey wont be sailing the goodies to annoy Pakistan.
> 
> saying all this the most important point will be that India is already in quite a mess with US on one side and Russians on the other of there major defence deals. they have to be on good terms with one and this will piss of the other!
> Indians are wise enough not to spoil the new born frined ship with US by going for T-129 instead of Apache!
> 
> dont tell me that Indians may go for it in small numbers just to disturbe Pakistani deal.
> i dont agree, Indian economy might be going good but with millios of mouths demanded to be fed, they are not such a tuphoon to go spendind millions of $$$ just to diturbe other nations deals!!
> 
> 
> i hope i have made my point of vie clear to all you brothers!
> 
> regards!




Bro, It is just a defence magazine treated it. There are not any official statements from any side about it. Magazine only says that "India is interested in T-129 Atak". Rests are all the wishes, imaginations, conspiracy theories of members.  Some of them are typed to make fun. 

Actually, At international relations, Those are serious subjects than we can imagine and A simple agreement may affect each side politically, economically/militarily...etc. I mean At the background of image, Everything is much more complicated than we can imagine. Let all those aside, Just be sure that *Turkey never act against Pakistan*...

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## LegionnairE

cabatli_53 said:


> Even If It is about agreement worth billion $, *Turkey CAN NOT export* such critical and strategical systems to countries like Armenia, Iran, India against brother countries, Turks have connected with deep historical ties in terms of blood or religious factors.


Do not forget serbia... whatever we can make a black list sometime  We have many brothers that tied with blood -like south korea- we can sell our merchandise to them

Not so pragmatic...

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## cabatli_53

LegionnairE said:


> Do not forget serbia... whatever we can make a black list sometime  We have many brothers that tied with blood -like south korea- we can sell our merchandise to them
> 
> Not so pragmatic...



In recent years, Despite We have increasing trade statics and good politic relations with Serbia, We can not sell such systems to them cause of Brother Bosnia Herzogevina and Kosova. Those two countries are like under protection of Turkey and They look Turkey like a big brother.


Besides, I think Brother countries can reach everything Turkey has. It is something like a menthal union among us, Although We live different geoghraphies. In previous days, Turkey and Azerbaijan established a strategic partnership council which will agree on common strategies of both countries. In Additions, Turkey invites Azerbaijan to join into Altay MBT, Anka MALE UAV, Infantry rifle and Milgem programs...

I mean It is just a matter of desicion to reach everything brother states have among eachothers so We never sell strategic defence armaments to the countries that have problems with our brother states.

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## Arsalan

cabatli_53 said:


> In recent years, Despite We have increasing trade statics and good politic relations with Serbia, We can not sell such systems to them cause of Brother Bosnia Herzogevina and Kosova. Those two countries are like under protection of Turkey and They look Turkey like a big brother.
> 
> 
> Besides, I think Brother countries can reach everything Turkey has. It is something like a menthal union among us, Although We live different geoghraphies. In previous days, Turkey and Azerbaijan established a strategic partnership council which will agree on common strategies of both countries. In Additions, Turkey invites Azerbaijan to join into Altay MBT, Anka MALE UAV, Infantry rifle and Milgem programs...
> 
> I mean It is just a matter of desicion to reach everything brother states have among eachothers so We never sell strategic defence armaments to the countries that have problems with our brother states.



well said brother!
we all agree to Turkeys growing role in Muslim worlds defence sector.
infact, Turkey with access to the westren markets and a good bunch of enineers can be the leader of Islamic Military Force.

perhaps we should think about making an alliance like NATO!

regards!

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## rafay321

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well said brother!
> we all agree to Turkeys growing role in Muslim worlds defence sector.
> infact, Turkey with access to the westren markets and a good bunch of enineers can be the leader of Islamic Military Force.
> 
> *perhaps we should think about making an alliance like NATO!*
> 
> regards!



Severely needed.


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## Super Falcon

we need huge numbers of helis and not only helis but deadly helis too


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## cabatli_53

arsalanaslam123 said:


> perhaps we should think about making an alliance like NATO!




Bro, 

You know Establisment of an alliance like NATO with some Arab states are something like starting point of corrosion and failures. Most of them and their kings love being a puppet of big players and their extends in ME. It became something like a nature of them with the end of Ottoman Empire. They had some dignity at Ottoman times but With the end of Empire, they lost everything they had and need to remain as a proud human-being created by Allah.

Now a days, they are busy to costruct huge buildings, disbursing money to luxury things thanks to their petrol/gas resources drilled by USA firms. Such long terms politic/strategical things make their mind confused...

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## Arsalan

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro,
> 
> You know Establisment of an alliance like NATO with some Arab states are something like starting point of corrosion and failures. Most of them and their kings love being a puppet of big players and their extends in ME. It became something like a nature of them with the end of Ottoman Empire. They had some dignity at Ottoman times but With the end of Empire, they lost everything they had and need to remain as a proud human-being created by Allah.
> 
> Now a days, they are busy to costruct huge buildings, disbursing money to luxury things thanks to their petrol/gas resources drilled by USA firms. Such long terms politic/strategical things make their mind confused...




a real harsh reality but true!!

well for our knowledge, Saudia aArabi have become largest arms importers in thepast years overcomiming everyone else.
the have bought the highest number of arms (value wise), giving business worth billions of dollars to US and west. this is the same money there companies use to develop more and more leathal weapons to be testde in Iraq and Afghanistan.

with dfence spending of billions of dollars, the saudis have not been able to keep Israel at bay, infact they are not even raising voice againt the agression of Israel killing innocent paletineans



> India has been replaced as the biggest recipient of foreign arms by China and Saudi Arabia, according to latest figures that have been made available by the US government.
> 
> 
> 
> While India topped the list of developing countries that imported conventional weapons in 2008, the value of foreign arms received last year has come down to $1.2 billion, taking the country down to No. 5 in the list of top weapon importers of the world.
> 
> 
> 
> The new figures drawn up by the US government have been made available in an annual report prepared by the US Congressional Research Service (CRS) which tracks arms imports by all developing nations. The value refers to arms that have been actually delivered to the importing nations and does not include weapon systems that are being manufactured within the country with foreign technology.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the report, India was the biggest recipient of foreign arms in 2008 along with Saudi Arabia with both nations receiving weapon systems worth $1.8 billion from developed nations including US, Russia, UK and France. But the value has dropped sharply for 2009 with India getting $1.2 billion worth of arms and countries like China and South Korea overtaking it as the leading importers of weapon systems

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## Arsalan

> The US government is charging ahead with a plan to sell $60bn worth of advanced aircraft and other sophisticated weapons systems to Saudi Arabia, in what is thought to be the largest US arms deal ever.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday that the US administration was also in talks with the Saudis about naval and missile-defence upgrades that could be worth tens of billions of dollars more.
> 
> Under the deal, the US is also to expand Saudi Arabia's ballistic-missile defences "to reduce the threat from Iranian rockets", US officials were reported to have said. They also said that it was unclear how much that package would be worth, but it could be similar to one in the United Arab Emirates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US administration sees the sale as part of a broader policy aimed at supporting "Arab allies against Iran", and is expected to notify the US congress about these plans in the upcoming weeks, the report said.
> 
> Gala Riani, a Middle East analyst at IHS Global Insight, told Al Jazeera that news of this deal was not surprising and something that was expected.
> 
> "At the heart of this, the US is seeking to build and strengthen its allies in the region. Perhaps it has something to do with the US economy, but the shared threat from Iran is definitely a motivating factor."
> *
> Question of use*
> 
> While Saudi Arabia has the money to buy fighter jets and other hardware, some analysts say "it's one thing to buy the equipment, but it's another to use it efficiently".
> 
> Nevertheless, the US administration plans to frame the Saudi deal as a major job creator, supporting at least 75,000 jobs, according to company estimates.
> 
> This will come as a welcome boost to an employment market that is shedding thousands of jobs every month as Barack Obama, the US president, struggles with economic woes.
> 
> A recent US government study found that the "global economic recession significantly pushed down purchases of weapons last year to the lowest level since 2005", the New York Times reported on Monday.
> 
> The report, that was presented to the US congress over the weekend, concluded that the value of worldwide arms deals fell to $57.5bn in 2009, a drop of 8.5 per cent from 2008, while the US signed arms deals worth $22.6bn - a dominating 39 per cent of the worldwide market.
> 
> The study, focused particularly on weapons sales to the developing world, found that in 2009, Brazil was the top weapons buyer in the developing world, followed by Venezuela and then Saudi Arabia.
> 
> *Biggest buyers*
> 
> Over much of the past decade, *Saudi Arabia*, China, India and the *United Arab Emirates* have been among the largest weapons purchasers in this category.
> 
> Richard Grimmett, an international security specialist and author of the study, said that relationships between arms suppliers and buyers continued to evolve "in response to changing political, military and economic circumstances."
> 
> "Where before the principal motivation for arms sales by foreign suppliers might have been to support a foreign policy objective, today that motivation may be based as much on economic considerations."
> 
> While pro-Israel US politicians have in the past voiced concerns about arms sales to Saudi Arabia, Israel's fears were allayed because the fighter jets would not be equipped with the type of long-range systems that could threaten Israeli soil.
> 
> The Obama administration plans to notify congress that it will authorise the *Saudis to buy as many as 84 new F-15 fighters, upgrade 70 more, and purchase three types of helicopters - 70 Apaches, 72 Black Hawks and 36 Little Birds* - the report noted, citing unnamed officials.
> 
> *The Israelis were expected to buy a more advanced fighter jet, the F-35, and should receive them around the same time the Saudis are expected to start getting the F-15s, the report said.*
> 
> "We appreciate the administration's efforts to maintain Israel's qualitative military edge, and we expect to continue to discuss our concerns with the administration about the issues," Michael Oren, the Israeli ambassador to the US, said.
> 
> *The Iran connection*
> 
> The F-35 is designed to avoid detection by radar and could play a role in any Israeli effort to knock out what it regards as a threat posed by Iran's disputed nuclear programme.
> 
> "The Israeli government is not as vocal as would have been expected, due to their agreement with the US and also because this is aimed at Iran," Riani told Al Jazeera.
> 
> "The Iranians have been expecting developments like this to happen - we have seen them unveiling domestically manufactured weapons to show that they are keeping up militarily - but clearly they cannot."
> 
> Last month, Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, approved the purchase of 20 F-35 warplanes from the US, in a deal worth almost $3bn.
> 
> The Saudi deal, which would be stretched out over the next five to 10 years, is the top-line amount requested by the Saudis, even though they are expected to initially buy only about half that amount



congrats to our saudi bros~~

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## Arsalan

anyway more relavant to topic,
what if these rich states invest in system equally potent but made by brother islamic countries,
what if they go for Pakistani Al-Khalid tanks instead of Abmrams,
they must go for T-129 instead of cobras and apaches,

there are may other options as well covering APC, Ships (specially ones with low displacement like missile boats, patrol boats, corvettes)

this will not only bring good name to these equipmen and thus pave wayfor more buyers but it would further strengthen muslim arms inductry and thus we can have more to invest in RnD istead of giving $$ to LM to do the same!

regards!


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## Jigs

arsalanaslam123 said:


> a real harsh reality but true!!
> 
> well for our knowledge, Saudia aArabi have become largest arms importers in thepast years overcomiming everyone else.
> the have bought the highest number of arms (value wise), giving business worth billions of dollars to US and west. this is the same money there companies use to develop more and more leathal weapons to be testde in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> 
> with dfence spending of billions of dollars, the saudis have not been able to keep Israel at bay, infact they are not even raising voice againt the agression of Israel killing innocent paletineans



Industry is the only way to go. It cuts you dependence on foreign suppliers and that results in you having more say in affairs. If you have no chips to bargain with then no one takes you seriously. SA spending billions on modified U.S. arms for the shake of having a credible defense to Israel only makes them sink even more. Both Turkey and Pakistan understands this when it comes to arms procurement. People don't remember this but even Turkey was arms embargoed by the U.S. during the Cyprus conflict.The ultimate way to control a country is to cripple their arms procurement while they are under possible threat.


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## Jigs

arsalanaslam123 said:


> anyway more relavant to topic,
> what if these rich states invest in system equally potent but made by brother islamic countries,
> what if they go for Pakistani Al-Khalid tanks instead of Abmrams,
> they must go for T-129 instead of cobras and apaches,
> 
> there are may other options as well covering APC, Ships (specially ones with low displacement like missile boats, patrol boats, corvettes)
> 
> this will not only bring good name to these equipmen and thus pave wayfor more buyers but it would further strengthen muslim arms inductry and thus we can have more to invest in RnD istead of giving $$ to LM to do the same!
> 
> regards!



I think the reason why pakistan is going for U.S. arms is because of the current window of opportunity since Pakistanis assistance is fundamental to the WOT which results in U.S. aid provided to them in return for WOT cooperation. Once the U.S. finishes up the war with Afghanistan things will go back to normal. I also believe though that Pakistan should move quickly into the Turkish defense market. As much as buying arms from the U.S. through aid is good it does not provide anything for the future when it comes to self efficiency.


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## TaimiKhan

Jigs said:


> I think the reason why pakistan is going for U.S. arms is because of the current window of opportunity since Pakistanis assistance is fundamental to the WOT which results in U.S. aid provided to them in return for WOT cooperation. Once the U.S. finishes up the war with Afghanistan things will go back to normal. I also believe though that Pakistan should move quickly into the Turkish defense market. As much as buying arms from the U.S. through aid is good it does not provide anything for the future when it comes to self efficiency.



Agreed, but one of the reason we go for US weapons is their quality and combat effectiveness. We have a superior enemy, and we can counter it with quality and good training. 

Plus, if you look at past few years, we are now less dependent on US for some extreme machines, which we can't have from somewhere else. 

F-16s are gonna be of US, some new radars, helicopters etc etc. 

For other small and big things, we are now looking at own sources as well as other sources, and Turks are one of them. 

Erieyes from Sweden, ZDK-03 from China, MBTs made in Pakistan with Chinese and Ukrainian assistance, JF-17s, FC-20s, communication equipment from Turks, EW equipment from different sources, interest in T-129s, UAVs from different sources, weapons from SA etc etc are all major steps showing that Pakistan is less and less going for US equipment. 

And hope in future, we go for joint ventures with the Turks, as they are gonna be one hell of a force in future and their weapons systems would itself be one of a class. Through joint ventures we can sell to other countries too and make our own defense forces quiet capable.


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## Agent X

cabatli_53 said:


> Mr. Dreamer, I did not post it to make you saw everything about this news. It is the link of magazine that related news issued in Turkish...




If expecting for a source link is dreaming then being dreamer is a PDF rule anyway i can't understand what's the point of posting magazine homepage link when it say nothing about any deal with India. why aren't posting a link which say India asked for t 129. post the link or accept you was trolling.





> You know If you are talking about a willing from Indian side about a strategic system to purchase againt brother Pakistan, It is an obligation for Turkey to inform Pakistani brothers about How Turkey have to act. Otherwise, The PM or minister who wants to export such critical systems to India without issuing any conditions against a brother state is assessed by Turkish nation like digging own grave



Lol that sounds like fear more then brotherhood nevermind india was never interested in t 129 so you don't need to inform them about anything.






> T-129 is being developed by ATAK team which TAI, Aselsan and Agusta Westland included into this team. India can not offer anything to this program different than fund. About lethality of Helo, Do not worry about it, Roketsan always performs great job about AT and Anti-personnel missiles...




Ya ya whatever, i said all that just to tell you how stupid your post was when you said i am not happy coz i want tot of t 129 for India......... first prove India showed interest in t 129 then we will discuss tot. your post was nothing but baseless allegation.








> Sorry but All those your dreams have nothing to do with the actual point of this thread and not make any sense. I hope DRDO will catch great export success but Neither your success in World, nor development of Akash missiles do not affect any of achievements of Turkish defence industry. I do not know Italian effect over sales but I am just talking about How Turkish side will act, When India wants to deal with Turkey about T-129 Atak. You know It is time tasted.




maaaaaaan i was just telling you the powers who will choose one between pakistan or few billion dollar contract they would be authorities of ur defence industry and your government you won't play any role in their decision you can only guess what they will choose can't say anything for sure can u? 



> We are taking about likely cooperations about T-129 Atak between Pakistan and Turkey in this thread and As I have told thousands of times that A Turkish defence magazine called MSI issued a news like *"India is interested in T-129 ATAK" *. *That's a reason why We have treated it*. After introduced it in this thrad, We made some *mind exercises over it*. It is you jumped into thread with all those nonsense sentences but Do not worry, There is not any deal in sight.



Go read my previous posts i have more then enough reasons for "jump" in the thread. you were talking about cooperation between turkey and pakistan that's ok but why you were making fun of India? "India bashing Turks" is that a new kind of weapon that Pakistan will get with t 129? no defence magazine published any news regarding India interested in your helicopters it's all your fantasies.






> Yes It says something about Indian willing for T-129 Atak...



so post me link of article instead of homepage or you think i know turkish and i will search it out myself right?





> Anybody did not bother us but Some facts should have been known by everybody in threads. Even If It is about agreement worth billion $, *Turkey CAN NOT export* such critical and strategical systems to countries like Armenia, Iran, India against brother countries, Turks have connected with deep historical ties to the countries We call like *BROTHER* *in terms of blood or religious factors.*



i have no idea why you pulling this so called "muslim brotherhood" in each and every single post of ur. isn't Iran muslim? yes they are infect they are true muslim in comparison with you. btw don't you have some serious defence deals with Israel who's the biggest enemy of islam according to your religious leaders?


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## Kompromat

Tiamikhan please watchout for where my thread is headed to.


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## cabatli_53

Agent X said:


> If expecting for a source link is dreaming then being dreamer is a PDF rule anyway i can't understand what's the point of posting magazine homepage link when *it say nothing about any deal with India. why aren't posting a link which say India asked for t 129*. post the link or accept you was trolling.



(1)Base of all those sentences are about the source of related sentence.



Agent X said:


> Lol that sounds like fear more then brotherhood nevermind india was never interested in t 129 so you don't need to inform them about anything.



Yes I need to inform If the subject is about T-129 Atak and potential costumers...



Agent X said:


> Ya ya whatever, i said all that just to tell you how stupid your post was when you said i am not happy coz i want tot of t 129 for India......... first prove India showed interest in t 129 then we will discuss tot. your post was nothing but baseless allegation.




(2)Base of all those sentences are about the source of related sentence.



Agent X said:


> maaaaaaan i was just telling you the powers who will choose one between pakistan or few billion dollar contract they would be authorities of ur defence industry and your government you won't play any role in their decision you can only guess what they will choose can't say anything for sure can u?



I am talking about move limits of Turkey tested with time many times. You and I are not same, When it comes to assessments related with Turkiye. You can just look to the events from economic side but I estimate everything about politic, brotherhood, strategic, historical and international relationships of my country. I know the *nature, value judgments, religious importance, fidelity factors* of my nation and politics very well so Do not mix your analises with mine when the subject become the Turkey and our moves on international arena... 



Agent X said:


> Go read my previous posts i have more then enough reasons for "jump" in the thread. you were talking about cooperation between turkey and pakistan that's ok but why you were making fun of India? "India bashing Turks" is that a new kind of weapon that Pakistan will get with t 129? *no defence magazine published any news regarding India interested in your helicopters it's all your fantasies.*



(3)Base of all those sentences are about the source of related sentence.



Agent X said:


> so post me link of article instead of homepage or you think i know turkish and i will search it out myself right?



(4)Base of all those sentences are about the source of related sentence.



Agent X said:


> *i have no idea why you pulling this so called "muslim brotherhood" in each and every single post of ur*. isn't Iran muslim? yes they are infect they are true muslim in comparison with you. btw don't you have some serious defence deals with Israel who's the biggest enemy of islam according to your religious leaders?



Because, While Turkey as a secular state is estabishing good mutual strategic relations with *some* countries, Being a Muslim remains at the forefront of everything(economy, defence industry...etc) and We call such countries like brothers. Except *Some* Muslim countries, Despite They are not Muslim, We call them like brother cause of some historical reasons as well. It is S. Korea. They are also our blood brothers. Rest can be a good trade partners, good friends, strategic allies...etc but Brotherhood is a littile bit different in our terminology and You can not test it with some economical figures. It is something like You will never get (maybe) so Do not try to describe it with economical point of views...

Source as a response to (1-2-3-4)  I hope You know Turkish...

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## muse

> what if these rich states invest in system equally potent but made by brother islamic countries, what if they go for Pakistani Al-Khalid tanks instead of Abmrams, they must go for T-129 instead of cobras and apaches,
> 
> there are may other options as well covering APC, Ships (specially ones with low displacement like missile boats, patrol boats, corvettes)




Why would the Gulf countries do this? Gulf countries need weapons against other Muslims?? Yes, if they belong to the US interests, then yes - 

Look the purpose of these weapons is not for use against Israel, but against Iran and/or other Muslim neighbors 

Would Pakistan want to sell weapons to one brother Muslim country to use against another brother Muslim country? Would Pakistanis accept that Al-Khalid or JFT is used against other Muslims??


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## Arsalan

muse said:


> Why would the Gulf countries do this? Gulf countries need weapons against other Muslims?? Yes, if they belong to the US interests, then yes -
> 
> Look the purpose of these weapons is not for use against Israel, but against Iran and/or other Muslim neighbors
> 
> Would Pakistan want to sell weapons to one brother Muslim country to use against another brother Muslim country? Would Pakistanis accept that Al-Khalid or JFT is used against other Muslims??




so do you think that is a point that can be left alone, unaddressed??

we cannot sit back and relax saying that well well, actually no Muslim state is going to buy our weapon as they need it for another Muslim state and we wont let this happen?

i think it is the time where we better wake up. the growing aggression of west againt islam, either i be inshape of full scale wars in Afghanistan or Iraq, in terms of ambushes in Pakistan or propaganda of terrorism or emotional warfare of there popes and churches, everyting is poiting to a crusade. 
thats what was quoted by bush when they attacked Afghanistan,
if hey want it to be a crusade so let it be, we beter prepare ourself!



regards!


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## muse

Arsalan

Give the issue some thought - we do not wish to build weapons and to market weapons just for the sake of building and marketing weapons -- we build and market them with a particular view, a particular vision of what we think promotes a better world.

If as you suggest and with which I fully concur, that the West is not satisfied with the blood it has shed in Muslim majority countries and will directly and through proxies seek to shed much much more blood in Muslim majority countries - and to be fair, neither are those who seek to weaponize, to use religion as a political ideology within Muslim majority countries -- How then should thinking Pakistanis seek to fashion policy?

Well, certainly you will agree that the very first thing Pakistan must do is to tackle the notion that religion can be weaponized by radical political groups - simultaneously, the countries (you know which countries those are - Saudi and Iran) must be engaged politically and publicly to stop using the notion of sects as justification for war.

It's only after the creation of this general understanding, only after creating this public understanding and agreement, that Pakistani policy can fashion a common front which is bolstered by Pakistani arms industry among others.

Our main effort must be political, to create a common understanding, on then can Pakistani arms have a legitimate role to play in foreign policy to create legitimacy.

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## Arsalan

muse said:


> Arsalan
> 
> Give the issue some thought - we do not wish to build weapons and to market weapons just for the sake of building and marketing weapons -- we build and market them with a particular view, a particular vision of what we think promotes a better world.
> 
> If as you suggest and with which I fully concur, that the West is not satisfied with the blood it has shed in Muslim majority countries and will directly and through proxies seek to shed much much more blood in Muslim majority countries - and to be fair, neither are those who seek to weaponize, to use religion as a political ideology within Muslim majority countries -- How then should thinking Pakistanis seek to fashion policy?
> 
> Well, certainly you will agree that the very first thing Pakistan must do is to tackle the notion that religion can be weaponized by radical political groups - simultaneously, the countries (you know which countries those are - Saudi and Iran) must be engaged politically and publicly to stop using the notion of sects as justification for war.
> 
> It's only after the creation of this general understanding, only after creating this public understanding and agreement, that Pakistani policy can fashion a common front which is bolstered by Pakistani arms industry among others.
> 
> Our main effort must be political, to create a common understanding, on then can Pakistani arms have a legitimate role to play in foreign policy to create legitimacy.




sir this is all what we as Pakistanis need to do, the point i was addressing was the cold attitude of the arab and majority of other rich muslim nations.

however, now before black blood shoots me, lets head back to topic...

regards!


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## Agent X

cabatli_53 said:


>




I don't think so there is anything i am gonna get from this argument i am asking you for a source of your claim and you are not only avoiding my demand but trying to divert the topic to Muslim brotherhood, cultural links, blood relations and all that which is not at all related to this thread and now this new drama. you have given me a link sourced to your personal account on photobucket. even a 5 year old can make these images there is nothing special just a helicopter with plain text that too in turkish that prove nothing do anyone know how we can use a jpeg image in google translator?

No offense but i already got my answer that you don't have anything to show on your claim i don't wanna waste my time on this thread anymore i think you got your lesson and i hope from next time you won't mention India anywhere until you don't have anything solid to back up your post.

Take care.


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## cabatli_53

Agent X said:


> I don't think so there is anything i am gonna get from this argument i am asking you for a source of your claim and you are not only avoiding my demand but trying to divert the topic to Muslim brotherhood, cultural links, blood relations and all that which is not at all related to this thread and now this new drama. you have given me a link sourced to your personal account on photobucket. even a 5 year old can make these images there is nothing special just a helicopter with plain text that too in turkish that prove nothing do anyone know how we can use a jpeg image in google translator?



Sorry but All those are your problems. It does not interest me If you think Whether a 5 years old child can prepare such an image or You can not translate a jpeg pictures or not. During all discussion, *I have already emphasized* that there is a *Turkish* Magazine which issued/reported that India is interested in T-129 Atak helicopters. It is you put your dirty noses into this thread with lots of BS's without knowing anything about subject and accused me with spreading* imagination news *about India to cry down...bla bla



Agent X said:


> No offense but i already got my answer that you don't have anything to show on your claim i don't wanna waste my time on this thread anymore i think you got your lesson and i hope from next time you won't mention India anywhere until you don't have anything solid to back up your post.
> 
> Take care.



No offense but I think You got What you deserved in this thread. All your dirty discussion with full of pain is based on representing the source of it and I have just posted the page image of related magazine... As an advice, Next time, Before puting your nose into the subjects You do not have any idea about, *Try to ask kindly something related informations about subjects instead of attacking on threads with all those nonsense and so called victory announcements. *

You have 2 selection to realise the condition you falled in this thread. Try to learn Turkish to get it or If you have time enough, type the alphabets of the Turkish sentences to google translate to learn something related with this thread... Otherwise, Do not waste the times of members with all those nonsense claims...

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## cabatli_53

Just Enjoy with a professional magazine page that is prepared by a "5 years old child"...  






Sorry but You can not save your day with such an easy discussion style and so called victory announcements, After used such a dirty mouth related with this thread.

End of this story !!!

Turkish Lesson-1 for you; 

Hindistan: India
M&#252;&#351;teri Aday&#305;: Likely Costumer
&#304;&#351; Paketi: Work Shares
Talep Etmek: Demand

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## SEAL

Agent X said:


> I don't think so there is anything i am gonna get from this argument i am asking you for a source of your claim and you are not only avoiding my demand but trying to divert the topic to Muslim brotherhood, cultural links, blood relations and all that which is not at all related to this thread and now this new drama. you have given me a link sourced to your personal account on photobucket. even a 5 year old can make these images there is nothing special just a helicopter with plain text that too in turkish that prove nothing do anyone know how we can use a jpeg image in google translator?
> 
> No offense but i already got my answer that you don't have anything to show on your claim i don't wanna waste my time on this thread anymore i think you got your lesson and i hope from next time you won't mention India anywhere until you don't have anything solid to back up your post.
> 
> Take care.



Actually its your fault you are used to unreliable, poor Indian media and toilet papers,Turkish defence magz are much more reliable.
Cabatli contribution for PDF is well known, if you don't believe him thn g2h.


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## Tuahaa

Whose cruel joke was it to call an attack helicopter 't129 *ATAK*'

Imagine this "okay, we'd better send in the atak attack helis"


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## LegionnairE

Tuahaa said:


> Whose cruel joke was it to call an attack helicopter 't129 *ATAK*'
> 
> Imagine this "okay, we'd better send in the atak attack helis"



ATAK is name of the project, not the name of the heli

like TIHA - ANKA *or* JSF - Lightning II

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## Arsalan

LegionnairE said:


> ATAK is name of the project, not the name of the heli
> 
> like TIHA - ANKA *or* JSF - Lightning II




well T-129 sounds great, infact even the ATAK is also OK!

but what iimportant is that this machine look dangerous beast

and what even more important are the new that it even is performaing great.

i hope PA can get a good stock of these, we need them to safeguard both out westren and eastren borders.
infact, more required for eastren border with westren being dealt with be the cobras !!

regards!

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## Water Car Engineer

Most Indians didnt even have a clue that we were interested in this.. I know that theres a tender involving *APACHE AH-64 LONGBOW* and *MI-28 "HAVOC"* 

**hoping for Apache*
*
The numbers were reduced to 22 because of Hal LCH


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## cabatli_53

Tuahaa said:


> Whose cruel joke was it to call an attack helicopter 't129 *ATAK*'
> 
> Imagine this "okay, we'd better send in the atak attack helis"



*"ATAK"* has so many appropriate meanings in Turkish to name it for an attack helicopter. In English, *"Attack"* is mostly used to describe the class of helicopter but In Turkish "Atak" means *Impulsive, Militant, Nervy, Agressor, Agile, Active, Adventuresome*...etc

atak - Tureng - Turkish English Dictionary

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## Agent X

cabatli_53 said:


> It is you put your dirty noses into this thread with lots of BS's without knowing anything about subject and accused me with spreading imagination news about India to cry down...bla bla
> 
> You got What you deserved in this thread. All your dirty discussion with full of pain is based on representing the source of it and I have just posted the page image of related magazine... As an advice, Next time, Before puting your nose into the subjects You do not have any idea about, Try to ask kindly something related informations about subjects instead of attacking on threads with all those nonsense
> Otherwise, Do not waste the times of members with all those nonsense claims
> 
> After used such a dirty mouth related with this thread.





First of all just chill out you said India asked for your helicopters i asked you for a source and you start crying rivers like a kido lol grow up man. I have dirty mouth and dirty nose but i don't have atleast dirty brain with full of **** like few people here who claim 1000s of things but when someone ask for proof of their claim all they do is abuse like a looser.

No sir i didn't got what i deserved i deserved a source link of the article instead of that i got pages long lectures about muslim unity culture and brotherhood and after all that some jpeg images that i can't even understand anyway that's the best i could expect from someone like you are. now i am sure you gonna give me some nonsense text written by your neighbor on blogspot if i will ask for the article one more time. A free advice for you until you don't have 
something solid to show for your claim just do a favor on Indian members and keep your big mouth shut about India.





> Sorry but All those are your problems. It does not interest me If you think Whether a 5 years old child can prepare such an image or You can not translate a jpeg pictures or not.I have already emphasized that there is a Turkish Magazine which issued/reported that India is interested in T-129 Atak helicopters.



Actually the problem is you don't wanna accept you was trolling. seriously do you really think people know turkish in India. if the magazine published the article then why it's not anywhere at magazines online version??? you are avoiding to post the actual link because you know there is no such article exist.




> You have 2 selection to realise the condition you falled in this thread. Try to learn Turkish to get it or If you have time enough, type the alphabets of the Turkish sentences to google translate to learn something related with this thread... Otherwise, Do not waste the times of members with all those nonsense claims...




yeah sure i will learn turkish whenever i will find someone who will teach me that *so much popular language* in India thanx for the advice. 

i can't understand why i have to type when magazine published the news why can't you give me the link of article itself on the place of posting jpeg images from your own photobucket account??? and what nonsense claim you are talking about? it's you who claimed something which is hilarious more then nonsense i am 
just asking for a proof for your claim. man aren't you sleeping well or what? as far as time is concerned believe it or not i am the one who's suffering from time problem unlike you i am not lucky enough to have so much free time for waste on ur claims based on full of lies.




> Sorry but You can not save your day with such an easy discussion style and so called victory announcements, After used such a dirty mouth related with this thread.




Victory announcement??? are we fighting some kind of war or what? man you imagine so many things urself. I said i don't wana waste my time on this thread anymore coz you wasn't giving me any reliable source you were keep avoiding the main point of this argument and was trying to pull me in some other topics which i don't wanna discuss. you said India is interested in t 129 on your post no. 43 well according to the rules you should give the source with your claim but you didn't then i asked you for the source in my post no. 272 here you could give me the source but still you avoided it and start talking about things which are totally off topic what else i can do except of leaving the thread? we have already crossed 313 posts everything have a limit. if i will ask you for the article 1000 times you will give me off topic replys 1001 times i have no other choice but to leave the "thread with you" and "you with your imaginations".

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## Agent X

cabatli_53 said:


> Just Enjoy with a professional magazine page that is prepared by a "5 years old child"...



hmmmm this new image seems impressive but still if i will say it isn't trustable coz it is hosted on ur photobucket account instead of magazine's server you will again pull in the thread with some more "dirty" words so ok for the sake of your baseless ego let's believe Indians asked for t 129 but since we don't have to give a creditable source here i would like to tell you the next chapter of the story which recently published in an Indian magazine. 

*Indians rejected t 129 coz it does not fulfill requirements of Indian military. officials told the reason mi 24 beats t 129 in terms of firepower. Turkish said they will try to develop something similar to mi 24 in next few years.
*
case closed.

Enjoy and i hope you won't ask for any source.

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## Agent X

fox said:


> Actually its your fault you are used to unreliable, poor Indian media and toilet papers,Turkish defence magz are much more reliable.



Well Indian journalists and news channels are respected in the world. they have ties with many world famous news channels including BBC CNN and Al zazira on other hand no body (other then pakistanis) cares about pakistani media so better keep your mouth shut atleast in this case. about turkish media........i have no idea coz i never heard about any famous turkish news channel or media group infect the magazine which published this false news (according to cabatil) it also don't have even it's own server where it can host some articles.




> Cabatli contribution for PDF is well known, if you don't believe him thn g2h.




Oh yeah watched his baseless anti Indian claims with tons of lies i can easily guess what type of contribution he did.

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## Kompromat

*Taimikhan* Please make sure that INDIA remains out of my thread - its not the topic and should not be discussed here !


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## TaimiKhan

*Cabalti & Agent X, plz now stop this whatever you guys are doing, its derailing the thread unnecessarily. *


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## cabatli_53

TaimiKhan said:


> *Cabalti & Agent X, plz now stop this whatever you guys are doing, its derailing the thread unnecessarily. *



Some of those Indians can not even stand to see a news posted by a Turkish magazine and jumping into threads to float everything like typicall trolls and accusing the posters like spreading lie news Despite the fact that The page of related magazine posted. Firstly, He claimed that I tell lies and there is not any magazine issued such a news. When I posted the related page picture of magazine, He claimed that Such images can be prepared by even 5 years old child. When I posted all page pictures, He started crying like a kid and started exeminating the reliabilities of magazine... Excuses never end !!! 


Actually, After all those bullsh@ts/cryings/excuses and accused me to tell lie news, This Troll had deserved a hard and painfull responses but I will end discussion in here cause of Taimikhan and BlackBlood.

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## Arsalan

desperately waiting to see some good cooperation between the two brotherly nation in feild of military armed forces.
the Milgem Corvettes, T-129, UAV/Drones are real feilds where we can form new bonds but sadly nothing partical have come up so far..

will love to see the T-129 in PA Aviation as front line attack helicopter, supporting the Cobra fleet.

YouTube - Pakistan Army Next generation combat helicopter contender (T-129)

regards!

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## Jigs

arsalanaslam123 said:


> desperately waiting to see some good cooperation between the two brotherly nation in feild of military armed forces.
> the Milgem Corvettes, T-129, UAV/Drones are real feilds where we can form new bonds but sadly nothing partical have come up so far..
> 
> will love to see the T-129 in PA Aviation as front line attack helicopter, supporting the Cobra fleet.
> 
> YouTube - Pakistan Army Next generation combat helicopter contender (T-129)
> 
> regards!



The Milgem deal fell through due to economic concerns. T-129 is still in the books but it depends on if Pakistan wants to go with our helicopter or AH-1Z Vipers from the U.S. 

The T-129 if selected would most likely replace the Cobras i would think or else their would not be a reason to select it as that would cause logistic issues. Plus Pakistan recently received more cobras right ?

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## cabatli_53

T-129 Mock-up with Roketsan Cirit Launchers...

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## Jigs

Avionics









* Avionic Central Control Computer-ACCC (Dual)
* Full Digital 4-axis Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS)
* EW-Suite Central Processing System (ISIS)
* Air Data Computer (ADC)
* Integrated INS/GPS (Dual)/ Doppler navigation
* Digital Moving Map
* Radar altimeter
* Software Defined Networking Radio (SDNR)
* VHF/UHF radios
* HF radio
* IFF Transponder
* Voice encryption/ Frequency Hopping
* Data and Image Transmission System
* DAS suite with passive and active counter measures
* Air vehicle monitoring
* Aircraft & Mission Management System (AMMS)
* Weapons ballistic trajectory processing
* Target acquisition utilising EO with laser range finder/designator, FLIR and CCTV
* Night Vision (Helmet Mounted Display System)
* Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT)


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## Tshering22

Jigs said:


> Avionics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Avionic Central Control Computer-ACCC (Dual)
> * Full Digital 4-axis Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS)
> * EW-Suite Central Processing System (ISIS)
> * Air Data Computer (ADC)
> * Integrated INS/GPS (Dual)/ Doppler navigation
> * Digital Moving Map
> * Radar altimeter
> * Software Defined Networking Radio (SDNR)
> * VHF/UHF radios
> * HF radio
> * IFF Transponder
> * Voice encryption/ Frequency Hopping
> * Data and Image Transmission System
> * DAS suite with passive and active counter measures
> * Air vehicle monitoring
> * Aircraft & Mission Management System (AMMS)
> * Weapons ballistic trajectory processing
> * Target acquisition utilising EO with laser range finder/designator, FLIR and CCTV
> * Night Vision (Helmet Mounted Display System)
> * Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT)


Jigs man, I got a doubt. Since this is a concept of Agusta-Westland originally and TAI is license manufacturing the gunship for Turkish military, won't it be essential that you have to take AW's clearance before re-exporting to some other country (any for that matter)?

I want to get this right: T-129 is made by TAI the same way Su-30MKI is made by HAL for us isn't it? Or is T-129 totally independent and free to export this version of AW-129 to anyone? Cuz I doubt AW will allow Turkey to compete with itself someday using their own inherent design. Right?


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## TaimiKhan

Tshering22 said:


> Jigs man, I got a doubt. Since this is a concept of Agusta-Westland originally and TAI is license manufacturing the gunship for Turkish military, won't it be essential that you have to take AW's clearance before re-exporting to some other country (any for that matter)?
> 
> I want to get this right: T-129 is made by TAI the same way Su-30MKI is made by HAL for us isn't it? Or is T-129 totally independent and free to export this version of AW-129 to anyone? Cuz I doubt AW will allow Turkey to compete with itself someday using their own inherent design. Right?



Under the agreement with AW, Turkey has the full marketing and intellectual right for the T-129 and it can sell the helicopter to anyone, except for United Kingdom and Italy itself. 

And its not just license manufacturing, its complete transfer of tech with 100% local Turkish made systems to be incorporated. Plus, there are some differences too between the A-129 & T-129, major difference is the engines, which are different on both variants. 

single - The Jamestown Foundation[tt_news]=35555

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## Jigs

Like TaimiKhan has said we hold all rights to this variant of the platform. It is a upgraded version of the A-129 with considerable amount of Turkish made technologies integrated.


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## Last Hope

Seem really nice !
What is the unit price ?
And how many are planned to buy in near and far future ?


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## cabatli_53

proudpakistanistudent said:


> Seem really nice !
> What is the unit price ?
> And how many are planned to buy in near and far future ?



9 T-129 P1 configuration as a stop-gap
30+1 T-129 TUC-I 
20 T-129 TUC-II 
40 Optional T-129 TUC-II or Maybe III version...

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## Tshering22

TaimiKhan said:


> Under the agreement with AW, Turkey has the full marketing and intellectual right for the T-129 and it can sell the helicopter to anyone, except for United Kingdom and Italy itself.
> 
> And its not just license manufacturing, its complete transfer of tech with 100% local Turkish made systems to be incorporated. Plus, there are some differences too between the A-129 & T-129, major difference is the engines, which are different on both variants.
> 
> single - The Jamestown Foundation[tt_news]=35555


Thanks for the clearance. A good choice for PAF and PA. Perhaps this is a first step to diversifying and moving away from your traditional source of weapons---combination of Turkish and Chinese weapon systems.


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## TaimiKhan

Tshering22 said:


> Thanks for the clearance. A good choice for PAF and PA. Perhaps this is a first step to diversifying and moving away from your traditional source of weapons---combination of Turkish and Chinese weapon systems.



Not PAF, just PA. Well Pakistani forces have already started on this path and have been diversifying their equipment from different sources, not relying completely on just one or two sources. 

Should have been done long ago, but still its not that late and we are now on the right path.

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## krash

raveolution said:


> Probably after they've gone thru the 24 Apaches / Tigers (being evaluated), 30 Mi-35's and 80 Mi17v5's.



yes as we know aerial dogfights between helis is quite the norm of any modern conflict


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## unicorn

I am sure that Ideas 2010 will bring some good breakthroughs for Pakistan.


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## gangsta_rap

unicorn said:


> I am sure that Ideas 2010 will bring some good breakthroughs for Pakistan.



2010 was canceled
never fear,2012 is here

Im still betting on the AH-1Z


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## truepakistani17

Jigs said:


> The Milgem deal fell through due to economic concerns. T-129 is still in the books but it depends on if Pakistan wants to go with our helicopter or AH-1Z Vipers from the U.S.
> 
> The T-129 if selected would most likely replace the Cobras i would think or else their would not be a reason to select it as that would cause logistic issues. Plus Pakistan recently received more cobras right ?



i hope that Pakistani Think Tank will be wise enough not to fell for the same trap once again.
we must not be inducting any more US machines that are to form the back bone of our armed forces.
we can get support equipment but no front line equipment.

we must look to get OHP to support the main stay F-22p Frigates, we must go for Vipers to strengthen PAF's FC-20 and JFT.

but no more frontline equipment....PLEASE!!!

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## SQ8

The advantage the AH-1Z brings in such as similarity to the current crop of Cobras operated by the PA....were probably weighed in. Although I suppose the Idea that we cant have our first AH-1Z till 2012 or so.. isnt that bad...our coffers are fairly empty now.. they might open up then.
The T-129.. will need a complete logical overhaul...sort of like going from a B.E degree.. to a FRCS..in layman terms.
Its the same reason the PAF stuck with the F-16 for its high end punch.. even though other options were available.


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## Babur Han

Bell AH-1Z King Cobras are highly advanced Combat Helicopters, but Pakistan would be highly depend on Upgrades and Support from US. For AH-1Z Pakistan can not chose a european, chinese or turkish Anti Tank Missile and Chances on Tech - Transfer are zero.

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## Kompromat

*Update*






Pakistan F-16 U&#231;aklar&#305;n&#305;n Modernizasyonu ve T-129 Atak Helikopteri projeleri kapsam&#305;nda TAI&#8217;nin davetlisi olarak T&#252;rkiye&#8217;de bulunan Pakistan Savunma Bakanl&#305;&#287;&#305; Tedarik Direkt&#246;r&#252; T&#252;mgeneral K&#304;NGR&#304;W&#304;, TAI yetkilileri ile birlikte M&#252;ste&#351;arl&#305;&#287;&#305;m&#305;z&#305; ziyaret etmi&#351;, ziyaret esnas&#305;nda bahse konu projelere ili&#351;kin olarak TAI - Pakistan faaliyetlerindeki son durum ve ayr&#305;ca iki &#252;lkenin korvet ve denizalt&#305; projeleri hakk&#305;nda g&#246;r&#252;&#351; al&#305;&#351;veri&#351;inde bulunulmu&#351;tur.

Savunma Sanayii M&#252;ste?arl???

*Translation*

Pakistani F-16 Aircraft Modernization and T-129 attack helicopters in Turkey at the invitation of projects under the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Procurement TAI Director Major General K&#304;NGR&#304;W&#304;, TAI M&#252;ste&#351;arl&#305;&#287;&#305;m&#305;z&#305; visited with officials, in relation to the projects mentioned during the visit TAI - Pakistan operations the last case and the two countries also exchanged opinions about the corvette and submarine projects.


------

The Program seems to be on the track so far , cant wait to see this beast bombing TTP hideouts.

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## cabatli_53

As Above article told that It was TAI invited Pakistani top officials to Turkey for T-129 Atak. Most probably, TAI shared so special and secret informations of T-129 ATAK. I bet TAI offered revealing all source-codes of T-129 to Pakistan with an unique mission computer variant with URDU language interface on Aselsani "super intelligent" MFD's, If Pakistan accept considering T-129 as a next generation attack helicopter.

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## BATMAN

cabatli_53 said:


> As Above article told that It was TAI invited Pakistani top officials to Turkey for T-129 Atak. Most probably, TAI shared so special and secret informations of T-129 ATAK. I bet TAI offered revealing all source-codes of T-129 to Pakistan with an unique mission computer variant with URDU language interface on Aselsani "super intelligent" MFD's, If Pakistan accept considering T-129 as a next generation attack helicopter.



All is fine but mission computer in Urdu will be funny.
I guess English would be more convenient.


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## DV RULES

Its good news for Pakistan from turkey & where i think Pakistan also should consider RUSSIAN weapon market.


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## Donatello

BATMAN said:


> All is fine but mission computer in Urdu will be funny.
> I guess English would be more convenient.



I doubt if there is any need for URDU.

All of our Pilots are English trained, don't know why they would want URDU, unless they are going for URDU-language based displays all across the board.


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## Nutuk

DV RULES said:


> Its good news for Pakistan from turkey & where i think Pakistan also should consider RUSSIAN weapon market.



Pakistan should consider to build her own defence industry and get knowhow from whomever this is. There is nothing above own industry.

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## cabatli_53

penumbra said:


> I doubt if there is any need for URDU.
> 
> All of our Pilots are English trained, don't know why they would want URDU, unless they are going for URDU-language based displays all across the board.



At this visit, It would be indeed the requirements of Pakistani officials TAI will try to meet. If There is an option/desire about it, It would be welcomed by TAI. URDU option came back to my memory with T-129 Mission computer because Despite Turkish army is also trained with English, Lots of domestic products are coming with Turkish based displays mixed with English classic terms...


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## Tajdar adil

Pakistan realy need that kind of defence deals..


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## jay89

i saw this helicoper over karsaz bridge yesterday it was looking holy effin' sweet.

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## TrMhMt

jay89 said:


> i saw this helicoper over karsaz bridge yesterday it was looking holy effin' sweet.



Where did you see it in Turkiye?


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## jay89

TrMhMt said:


> Where did you see it in Turkiye?



nope Karachi,Pakistan


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## mjnaushad

jay89 said:


> nope Karachi,Pakistan


Are you sure you saw T129 in Pakistan???


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## TrMhMt

jay89 said:


> nope Karachi,Pakistan



*interesting !! Maybe Pakistan is testing it... 
*


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## Myth_buster_1

mjnaushad said:


> Are you sure you saw T129 in Pakistan???



wow, what color was it? It could be one of US choppers.


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## notorious_eagle

TrMhMt said:


> *interesting !! Maybe Pakistan is testing it...
> *



During the summer i talked to someone in a very high position at PA Aviation, he told me T129 is definitely on the table.


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## Irfan Baloch

jay89 said:


> i saw this helicoper over karsaz bridge yesterday it was looking holy effin' sweet.




is there an airbase/ or helipad near by? Karsaz bridge in an Urban area seems to be an odd place for a prospect helicopter practice run
I would expect it to be in a more secluded, army airbase where they conduct their trainings and testing.
How many times has anyone seen a cobra gunship flying over a metropolis let alone a heavily armed gunship on evaluation in a city?
If there is an Army/ Airforce base near by that leads to known army training sights then I would accept this otherwise it is very unconvincing.

Few questions I have
What angle did you see it?
How high was it flying
Was it taking a turn and tilted to one side?
What was its camo? 
What was the time you saw it? Day or night?
Was is hovering/ circling or made a quick pass and flew away?
From your angle of view how did you make out that it wasnt Huvey or Bell? 
what was the sound like? can you relate to any other known helicopter? cobra? puma? get ranger etc?


pleae dont be offended I am not questioining the authenticity of your statement. just want to know more.

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## khurasaan1

cabatli_53 said:


> As Above article told that It was TAI invited Pakistani top officials to Turkey for T-129 Atak. Most probably, TAI shared so special and secret informations of T-129 ATAK. I bet TAI offered revealing all source-codes of T-129 to Pakistan with an unique mission computer variant with URDU language interface on Aselsani "super intelligent" MFD's, If Pakistan accept considering T-129 as a next generation attack helicopter.



Its really amusing that PAF go for T-129....


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## Irfan Baloch

Irfan Baloch said:


> is there an airbase/ or helipad near by? Karsaz bridge in an Urban area seems to be an odd place for a prospect helicopter practice run
> I would expect it to be in a more secluded, army airbase where they conduct their trainings and testing.
> How many times has anyone seen a cobra gunship flying over a metropolis let alone a heavily armed gunship on evaluation in a city?
> If there is an Army/ Airforce base near by that leads to known army training sights then I would accept this otherwise it is very unconvincing.
> 
> Few questions I have
> What angle did you see it?
> How high was it flying
> Was it taking a turn and tilted to one side?
> What was its camo?
> What was the time you saw it? Day or night?
> Was is hovering/ circling or made a quick pass and flew away?
> From your angle of view how did you make out that it wasnt Huvey or Bell?
> what was the sound like? can you relate to any other known helicopter? cobra? puma? get ranger etc?
> 
> 
> pleae dont be offended I am not questioining the authenticity of your statement. just want to know more.



I think rather than PAF its mainly meant for Pakistan Army


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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> is there an airbase/ or helipad near by? Karsaz bridge in an Urban area seems to be an odd place for a prospect helicopter practice run
> I would expect it to be in a more secluded, army airbase where they conduct their trainings and testing.
> How many times has anyone seen a cobra gunship flying over a metropolis let alone a heavily armed gunship on evaluation in a city?
> If there is an Army/ Airforce base near by that leads to known army training sights then I would accept this otherwise it is very unconvincing.
> 
> Few questions I have
> What angle did you see it?
> How high was it flying
> Was it taking a turn and tilted to one side?
> What was its camo?
> What was the time you saw it? Day or night?
> Was is hovering/ circling or made a quick pass and flew away?
> From your angle of view how did you make out that it wasnt Huvey or Bell?
> what was the sound like? can you relate to any other known helicopter? cobra? puma? get ranger etc?
> 
> 
> pleae dont be offended I am not questioining the authenticity of your statement. just want to know more.



It would have been possible to sight the odd CH-53 or CH-46 over karsaz due to its proxmity to Pns Mehran and the faisal flightpath.
About a month or so ago before the end of the US Marines relief ops..
It was not uncommon to see CH-53's..Ch-46's.. coming in low over DHA phase 8.. rounding the manora area.. and then taking a straight line to faisal.
Im sure in some cases they got a little lost as well.
But the timeframe given by the poster is quite unlikely..for any evaluations.. unless.. by chance a Z-9EC went over the area..they are doing their workups to operational readiness.

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## Mughal-Prince

What is expected *Price per unit* ??? compare to --- Apache ::: AH-1Z ::: Tiger --- and is their any *ToT* ???


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## jay89

Irfan Baloch said:


> is there an airbase/ or helipad near by? Karsaz bridge in an Urban area seems to be an odd place for a prospect helicopter practice run
> I would expect it to be in a more secluded, army airbase where they conduct their trainings and testing.
> How many times has anyone seen a cobra gunship flying over a metropolis let alone a heavily armed gunship on evaluation in a city?
> If there is an Army/ Airforce base near by that leads to known army training sights then I would accept this otherwise it is very unconvincing.
> 
> Few questions I have
> What angle did you see it?
> How high was it flying
> Was it taking a turn and tilted to one side?
> What was its camo?
> What was the time you saw it? Day or night?
> Was is hovering/ circling or made a quick pass and flew away?
> From your angle of view how did you make out that it wasn&#8217;t Huvey or Bell?
> what was the sound like? can you relate to any other known helicopter? cobra? puma? get ranger etc?
> 
> 
> pleae dont be offended I am not questioining the authenticity of your statement. just want to know more.




i was at the main karsaz signal,it was flying from paf musem i guess,and one thing is sure it wasn't a ch-53 or 46 it was a dam a attack helicopter and i know what cobra looks like so it wasn't a cobra either,it was flying not too high and i think it was on its way for airport or CoD,and one intresting thing which i noted the rear roater was like this one http://www.google.com.pk/imgres?img...vihCg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0

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## jay89

one thing is for sure it was a damn attack helicopter it was in pure black color it was so different from cobra and bell ain't a match,the aircraft was same like this t-129 but the rear roter part doesn't match the pics of this aircraft in this thread for what i have seen on thursday morning.


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## TrMhMt

@jay89

You saw that it had different type rear rotor ... Its getting more interesting !! You guys do you know that Pakistan has a helicopter which has a rotor like that ??


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## jay89

TrMhMt said:


> @jay89
> 
> You saw that it had different type rear rotor ... Its getting more interesting !! You guys do you know that Pakistan has a helicopter which has a rotor like that ??



i searched the only aircraft with that type of rear rotor in is z9ec,so i guess it was z9ec in black color,any one? does some one know pakistan nave operates z9ec in black color?


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## Mughal-Prince

jay89 said:


> one thing is for sure it was a damn attack helicopter it was in pure black color it was so different from cobra and bell ain't a match,the aircraft was same like this t-129 but the rear roter part doesn't match the pics of this aircraft in this thread for what i have seen on thursday morning.


I think you have miss Judged Z9ec of Navy as T-129 Atak which may use Faisal base or else I wonder you may have seen a chines Z-10 nothing else has a rear rotor blade like this which we may going to acquire ... and I think my first comment is more relevant ...


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## SQ8

Not black..
dark greyish rather..
However....considering what time of day it was.. whether it was against the sun or not..and other factors.. it was probably a PN Z-9..
unless there are other Z-9 derivatives under test.. which I sincerely doubt until there is any news or even a plausible rumor on it.

Does this look like something you saw?
http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/79134-navy-inducts-second-batch-z9ec-helicopters.html#post1245238

It is possible that it may have looked black against the sun..or other lighting.


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## Mughal-Prince

Please CAN ANY BUDDY Reply this

What is expected Price per unit ??? compare to --- Apache ::: AH-1Z ::: Tiger --- and is their any ToT ??? 

Thanks in advance


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## TrMhMt

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Please CAN ANY BUDDY Reply this
> 
> What is expected Price per unit ??? compare to --- Apache ::: AH-1Z ::: Tiger --- and is their any ToT ???
> 
> Thanks in advance



Bro. calm down !!!  nobody knows it yet coz still Turkiye is working on it !! we can know it after produced first helicopter at TAI. As you know we couldn't finish testing it with new avionics and electronics !!!


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## jay89

santro said:


> Not black..
> dark greyish rather..
> However....considering what time of day it was.. whether it was against the sun or not..and other factors.. it was probably a PN Z-9..
> unless there are other Z-9 derivatives under test.. which I sincerely doubt until there is any news or even a plausible rumor on it.
> 
> Does this look like something you saw?
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/79134-navy-inducts-second-batch-z9ec-helicopters.html#post1245238
> 
> It is possible that it may have looked black against the sun..or other lighting.



one thing is sure it was in black or grey color but after it crossed the sun what i saw was a pure black helicopter flying towards airport side or CoD,the rare rotor was like Z9-ec helicopter but the front part was different and no navy helicopter has black color,btw black or brown color truly represent attack helicopter if I am right.


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## Myth_buster_1

jay89 said:


> one thing is sure it was in black or grey color but after it crossed the sun what i saw was a pure black helicopter flying towards airport side or CoD,the rare rotor was like Z9-ec helicopter but the front part was different and no navy helicopter has black color,btw black or brown color truly represent attack helicopter if I am right.



Its a US Army Black Hawk then. You can see them alot in Quetta and now in other cities as well due to flood relief operations as well.


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## khurasaan1

I guess Mr. Growler is right....


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## Arsalan

well black hawk do not have a tail rotor like the one Jay said,







it surely would have been Z9C as they are also quite slim and can be mistaken as an attack helicopter. the only doubt is of color that could easily have been mistaken due to bright sun light!

black hawk tail rotor can not be mistaken by the Z9C rotor!

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## Arsalan



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## TrMhMt

arsalanaslam123 said:


>



I am sorry but this is not T-129. This is A-129 International !!!


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## Arsalan

TrMhMt said:


> I am sorry but this is not T-129. This is A-129 International !!!




yeap, but i couldnt find T-129 image from same angle!!!
i hope you have gone through above posts and know the reason of this post by me!

regards!


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## Mughal-Prince

TrMhMt said:


> I am sorry but this is not T-129. This is A-129 International !!!


But this 1 INDEED


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## Ahassan

nice .....


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## Super Falcon

For how many years we still have to eveluate this helicopter we are doing it from last two years when do we sign the deal for these helis


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## pakistantiger

i think until zaradi is incharge only chinese sytem coming to pakistan no european stuff coming as soon as ppp gov leave the office european stuff start coming to pakistan deals will be signed for T-129 submariens and might be a fighter jet typ gripen ng typhoon r rafale


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## Mughal-Prince



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## cabatli_53

That's the official introduction video generated by a Turkish graphic design institute called "Dirisoft" for TAI. Anka, Hurkus and C-130 modernization programs animation films have also been generated by Dirisoft.

diriSoft


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## Kompromat

I don't think Yanks will sale us Apache's and yet they ask us to "DO MORE" !

Where on earth we are going to do more if we dont have the right equipment == T-129 presents a hope for our army aviation , i truly do hope for the success of the project & that PA turns its intrust into a purchase order !


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Real Options for Pakistan's Helicopter Issue 






AC313

This can lift supplies , jeeps , cannons , armoured vehicles , and you can also have machine gun installed inside it if you are creative - 

Ideal Choice we should get 80 ordered with China 







AC311 multi-purpose helicopter

While its not a Cobra , this helicopter has the feel of Cobra helicopters , what we need is but production licence with China , and give Private contrators in Pakistan to install 

a) Machine guns
b) Targeting Pods , and Thermal Imaging or Night Vision
c) See if any Turkish helicopter based rockets launching capabilities can 
be integrated with minor rework similar to hell fire missile

We could really add 100 of these helicopters if we act properly and join China in such venture 

Also this helicopter can also be used to patrol our border zones - safely 



The Third Option is the Turkey Helicopter but Turkey itself has not even inducted that helicopter in its armed forces , so they need to produce their own 80 copters for next 4-5 years before we will get any thing ...

So I think we need to first fill the immediate need for our forces and keep things open with Turkey for the 

"Attack Helicopter Front Line" option open as well 

Summary: 

Between 2010 - 2015
AC313 : 60 Units (Transport Army , Civilian , Missions) Multi purpose
AC311 multi-purpose helicopter : 100 Units
Turkey Helicopters : 50 units (Open for debate)

2015 : 
Super Cobra 40 machines , and retire existing cobra fleet out dated


We can get all the fancy things

a) The night vision 
b) The targeting pods from China or HUD integrated similar to JF17 thunder
c) The hell fire missiles from turkey and its sub systems
d) The Machine guns 


Again - its not that hard we have done harder things - what we just need is a bit of initiative from our gov and plan ahead , beyond USA and its arms and just work to start up a production line for Chinese helicopters manufactured in Pakistan 

And then lets develop the other side gadgets around these Solid NEW platforms -


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## Jigs

Black Blood said:


> I don't think Yanks will sale us Apache's and yet they ask us to "DO MORE" !
> 
> Where on earth we are going to do more if we dont have the right equipment == T-129 presents a hope for our army aviation , i truly do hope for the success of the project & that PA turns its intrust into a purchase order !


 
They offered AH-1Z Vipers which are actually more advanced then the T-129s but there would be technology transfer involved.


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## Donatello

Jigs said:


> They offered AH-1Z Vipers which are actually more advanced then the T-129s but there would be technology transfer involved.



AH-1Zs are not coming anytime before 2013-14. That's 4 years and the way Pak-US relations are going, US pulling out of Afghanistan in 2014 meaning less bargaining chips for Pakistan, I don't see any new AH-1Zs coming.

Pakistan better become part of Turkish program, for any success by Pakistan Army in using them, might prompt other nations to purchase the t-129, eg Srilanka, Zimbabwe etc.


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## Mani2020

we badly need choppers for airforce and army .i hope we can look into various options as soon as possible Ah-1z will be good if they come but apart from them we also have to acquire other platforms rather then depending on only one type .I think PAF might look into heli's after the AEWAC and other inductions are completed .but historically PAF never operated large fleet of choppers .

Army badly lack in heavy lift and attack capability.apart from mi-17's we don't have any heavy lifter .so lets see what future brings.may be Army is also looking for Chinese heli's tech to mature and they can have possible option in form of them


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## Jigs

penumbra said:


> AH-1Zs are not coming anytime before 2013-14. That's 4 years and the way Pak-US relations are going, US pulling out of Afghanistan in 2014 meaning less bargaining chips for Pakistan, I don't see any new AH-1Zs coming.
> 
> Pakistan better become part of Turkish program, for any success by Pakistan Army in using them, might prompt other nations to purchase the t-129, eg Srilanka, Zimbabwe etc.



That would be around the same time as the T-129. We will recieve first batch of 9 starting in mid 2012 with our main order coming in 2013. Then after that we will probably start taking orders for other countries. I do hope Pakistan joins the T-129 program. It is a considerable upgrade over the current cobras.

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## cabatli_53

If Pakistan do not care the USA export rules applied for export products, I think AH-1Z or Apache would be the best of all candidates but You know It is almost impossible to integrate/change the critical systems of those products such as avionic/mission computers. No need to mention source codes. If Pakistan make pressures to get some offsets, Maybe, they can give permission you to assebmly some parts of Helo's in a Pakistani institute. Those are what USA is doing to Turkey as well...

AH-1Z was the Turkish choice in ATAK-1 tender but After a couple of meetings performed with USA counterparts, It is understood that Integrating domestic mission computer/Avionics on AH-1Z is almost impossible so This tender was cancelled...

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## SEAL

Well PM Gilani going to Turkey on 4-day visit lets see........


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## S-A-B-E-R->

hay last night there was some news on sining of MOU betwttn pak turk and also there was a news of turky to sell its ATAK helies to pak in 2013


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## arsalan shafique

is there any surety and conformation on this news that tiger attack helicopter would be provided or not!?!?!?!?
pLEase Repli Quick!!!!!


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## Stealth

YouTube - ATAK T-129 Made in Turkey

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## Kompromat

*Turkey Asked to Compete in Saudi Helicopter Bid, Sabah.*

By Benjamin Harvey - Sep 21, 2011 5:22 AM GMT-0700










*Saudi Arabias military asked Turkey to enter a tender to produce attack helicopters for the Saudi air force, Sabah newspaper reported. 
*
Turkish officials are in negotiations with Saudi counterparts regarding the Turkish-made Atak T-129 helicopters, which made their first test flights last month and are expected to go into mass production in the middle of next year, the Istanbul-based newspaper said. Sabah didnt say how it got the information. 

The helicopters are produced with parts and input from Turkish companies including Aselsan Elektronik Sanayi & Ticaret AS and *are generating interest from Malaysia, Jordan and Pakistan*, Sabah said. 

South Korea officially invited Turkey to join a tender in April next year for 36 military helicopters, the newspaper said.

Turkey Asked to Compete in Saudi Helicopter Bid, Sabah Says - Bloomberg


Lets hope for good.

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## cabatli_53

TAI P-6 First Firing Trials

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## bilal

can any one give comparison with US Apache64D long bow ?

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------

nice video brother


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## Irfan Baloch

with American components this Helicopter is as good as Swdish Gripen Aircraft. suffering from all the usual American trade and re-sale restrictions. with our shotgun marriage reaching its end with the US of A. Pakistan needs to only look for the options where the producer/ seller doesnt suffer from any trade restrictions from his suppliers.

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## VelocuR

Irfan Baloch said:


> with American components this Helicopter is as good as Swdish Gripen Aircraft. suffering from all the usual American trade and re-sale restrictions. with our shotgun marriage reaching its end with the US of A. Pakistan needs to only look for the options where the producer/ seller doesnt suffer from any trade restrictions from his suppliers.



Well said, sir. I have been saying same thing. Most of them forgot it is also part of American components and some stricts rules. It is very tough for Pakistan.

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## satishkumarcsc

bilal said:


> can any one give comparison with US Apache64D long bow ?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
> 
> nice video brother



Well you cant compare apples to oranges as both belong to different category of attack aircrafts.


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## TOPGUN

So pretty much we won't be able to get this bird either cause of it having american components .. thats just great.


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## cabatli_53

Irfan Baloch said:


> with American components this Helicopter is as good as Swdish Gripen Aircraft. suffering from all the usual American trade and re-sale restrictions. with our shotgun marriage reaching its end with the US of A. Pakistan needs to only look for the options where the producer/ seller doesnt suffer from any trade restrictions from his suppliers.



Only engines being produced under licence by TEI is from USA. Rest is the products of Turkish-Italian collaboration. Great percentage of T-129 Atak including transmissions, rotors, fuseage, electronics, avionics, missiles...etc are under the Turkey's share in terms of contribution.

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## Dr. Strangelove

RaptorRX707 said:


> Well said, sir. I have been saying same thing. Most of them forgot it is also part of American components and some stricts rules. It is very tough for Pakistan.


the only option that lefts is z 10

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## Penguin

Irfan Baloch said:


> with American components this Helicopter is as good as Swdish Gripen Aircraft. suffering from all the usual American trade and re-sale restrictions. with our shotgun marriage reaching its end with the US of A. Pakistan needs to only look for the options where the producer/ seller doesnt suffer from any trade restrictions from his suppliers.


Fewer US component than AH-1 and AH-64 ;-)

Besides:


> The helicopter is based on the Agusta Westland A129 Mongoose which has been the mainstay of the Italian army and has been operational in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> 
> The T-129 ATAK is an enhanced version of the Italian built A129, and its development is now the responsibility of TAI, with AgustaWestland as the primary partner.
> 
> The original prototype being built in Italy crashed in March 2010 during a test flight, leaving its Italian test pilot and its test engineer needing hospital treatment for minor injuries.


Arabian Aerospace - Turkey's T-129 attack helicopter prototype makes successful first flight

Given Italian origins, the US content may very well be very limited.


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## [--Leo--]

is that pakistan's project or turkey?


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## Irfan Baloch

cabatli_53 said:


> Only engines being produced under licence by TEI is from USA. Rest is
> the products of Turkish-Italian collaboration. Great percentage of T-129 Atak including transmissions, rotors, fuseage, electronics, avionics, missiles...etc are under the Turkey's share in terms of contribution.



thanks Cabalti
does the licence prevent you from selling to certain countries?
I am not talking about North Korea,Cuba or Iran etc but say Pakistan or China etc.




[--Leo--];2383718 said:


> is that pakistan's project or turkey?


 Trukey's

read the begining of the thread for more information. it helps reading the starting post as it saves you from asking basic questions.


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## VelocuR

wasm95 said:


> the only option that lefts is Z-10



 I hope Pakistan and China joint production licence and free-worry despite Italy-Turkish along with some US components and NATO access. Not only this, it will cost more expensives and spare parts problems. 












I have done my analysis which better options for Pakistan which is Z-10 helicopters over T-129, Apaches, and others. A bit disappointed Turkey didn't joint with Pakistan on this T-129, I understood NATO is priority for Turkey.

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## AKINCI

Pakistan should purchase non-US weapons so Z-10 looks better option than T-129. Italians has guaranteed to provide US made engines without any blockade but it's a big question whether they must do that on selling to 3rd countries. Also T-129 owe to be winner Rooiwalk's French made engine on tender.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan should for attack helicopter by looking at the size of our Army we need lot more attack as well as transport helicopters and we should produce them on our own for that we will have to collaborate with China


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## Penguin

wasm95 said:


> the only option that lefts is z 10



Z-19?


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## cabatli_53

Penguin said:


> Fewer US component than AH-1 and AH-64 ;-)
> 
> Besides:
> 
> Arabian Aerospace - Turkey's T-129 attack helicopter prototype makes successful first flight
> 
> Given Italian origins, the US content may very well be very limited.


 


Some corrections; 
-T-129 is based on A-129 Int fuselage with some differences providing more performance on design with more powerfull engine+transmissions .
-TAI as a main contactor of Atak project has all responsibilities including intellectual and property right owner of ATAK.
-About prototypes, P-1 isn't original T-129 prototype crashed but original A-129 modified with USA engine. The early modification of engine to an A-129 is to test the new engine parameters to accelerate the trials of T-129.

The prototype productions are being following;

-P-1 (Crashed. Original A-129, Not new production)
-P-2 (Italian new produced prototype)
-P-3 (Italian New Produced prototype)
-P-4 (TAI new produced prototype)
-P-5 (TAI new produced prototype)
-P-6 (TAI new produced prototype)

In terms of contribution of USA content, not performance; Think T-129 as a Z-10 using USA engine on it.


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## cabatli_53

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks Cabalti
> does the licence prevent you from selling to certain countries?
> I am not talking about North Korea,Cuba or Iran etc *but say Pakistan or China* etc.



It is very well known that Turkey has already been negotiating with Pakistani counterparts in Turkey / Pakistan for a likely T-129 Atak deal. This meetings have also been expressed by media and Everybody knows the interest of brother Pakistan to T-129 Atak. Most probably, At meetings, Those issues were being talked between brothers...

but I think A likely deal on T-129 with China is impossible.


Pakistani defence procurement minister Major General K&#304;NGR&#304;W&#304; visited Turkey SSM (Undersecretariat of defence minister) to talk about mainly T-129 Atak and took information about F-16 modernizations...

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## cabatli_53

To get T-129 Atak project, Please read Aviation Week's T-129 issue carefully...

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## cabatli_53

After Aviation Week published this issue, S. Korea officially invited Turkey and T-129 Atak to join into Korean attack helicopter tender...



> DAPA announced that Korea will spend 1.84 trillion won to acquire 36 attack helicopters from overseas. Col. Tan Myeong-hoon of DAPA said the AH-1W SuperCobra by Bell and AH-64D Block III from Boeing, will compete with the EC-665 Tiger from Eurocopter of France and *the T-129 from Turkey*.
> 
> http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/07/116_91281.html

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## cabatli_53

UMTAS trials (Main AT missile of Atak)







---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------

Smart Launcher of Atak designe by Roketsan






Cirit passed the serial production


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## cabatli_53

T-129 will carry a MMW radar which was designed/developed by Meteksan. It is also in trials now a days...







Those are latest developments I wanted to share...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

I can bet it tht PA will get T-129!

Also the UTMAS missile looks badass...


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## Irfan Baloch

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I can bet it tht PA will get T-129!
> 
> Also the UTMAS missile looks badass...




if this deal gets through then there might be a crash course for these helis and they would be deployed in the field right away due to high demand in WoT operations. our decades old cobras are not only too few but on the last edge of their lives.
I never doubted the capability of T-129 its way ahead of our cobras and will be a great morale booster for our troops in both hunter killer ops and responding to requests for reinforcements by our check posts in remote locations


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## VelocuR

cabatli_53 said:


> To get T-129 Atak project, Please read Aviation Week's T-129 issue carefully...



I understood the first arrival of T129 in the 2013, anytime US decide to sanction on Pakistan due to the failure war on Afghanistan and blame on Pakistan afterwards. 

Would this affect this deal regarding T-129s export to Pakistan?


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## Irfan Baloch

RaptorRX707 said:


> I understood the first arrival of T129 in the 2013, anytime US decide to sanction on Pakistan due to the failure war on Afghanistan and blame on Pakistan afterwards.
> 
> Would this affect this deal regarding T-129s export to Pakistan?



same answer as Cabali's it seems that they are pretty much immune to US playing dirty

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## Irfan Baloch

reference picture above, notice an external tube running from the centre to the chin of the helicopter, it seems to be the ammo feed or some sort or maybe cables to the sensors on the front. whatever it is, to me it seems like Achilles heel as a sustained cannon fire might danage that bit disabling whatever system it is meant for.
running this tube inside the main body was a better option no?


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## TaimiKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> reference picture above, notice an external tube running from the centre to the chin of the helicopter, it seems to be the ammo feed or some sort or maybe cables to the sensors on the front. whatever it is, to me it seems like Achilles heel as a sustained cannon fire might danage that big disabling whatever system it is meant for.
> running this tube inside the main body was a better option no?



That is the ammo belt, and yups this is a serious issue. One hit and the gun may not receive its ammo, thus it will loose its one weapon system.


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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> That is the ammo belt, and yups this is a serious issue. One hit and the gun may not receive its ammo, thus it will loose its one weapon system.



I think that is due to the limitations of the airframe..
The Apache dealt with this issue early on..
Its systems are housed in the nice thick chine it has.


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## Irfan Baloch

Santro said:


> I think that is due to the limitations of the airframe..
> The Apache dealt with this issue early on..
> Its systems are housed in the nice thick chine it has.



if this ammo tube provides same amount of protection against the automatic fire like the rest of the hull then it is fine except from the exposed part near the chin which is vulnerable to very lucky shot. But that can be resolved if the gunship pilot flies with the typical diagonal belly up style while taking enemy fire just like an Apache then this exposed part is beyond the line of sight from ground fire. 
I have yet failed to get enogh information about its armour protection except this *site *. which states that its protected against 12.7 mm AP rounds. 

but how this external bit of tube will fare against the enemy fire viz a viz the rest of the hull is not known. strange if the turrent gun was an afterthought because gunships developed before this craft have had that piece.


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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> if this ammo tube provides same amount of protection against the automatic fire like the rest of the hull then it is fine except from the exposed part near the chin which is vulnerable to very lucky shot. But that can be resolved if the gunship pilot flies with the typical diagonal belly up style while taking enemy fire just like an Apache then this exposed part is beyond the line of sight from ground fire.
> I have yet failed to get information about its armour protection so cant comment how this external bit will fare against the enemy fire viz a viz the rest of the hull.



I think the issue resides in the original Gunless design of the mangusta.
The Turret was never part of the original design.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> I think the issue resides in the original Gunless design of the mangusta.
> The Turret was never part of the original design.



And add-on is always an add-on, with its own compromises.


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## Jango

Bear in mind that a lucky shot can also take out the gun itself, rather than the feeder belt.

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## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> Bear in mind that a lucky shot can also take out the gun itself, rather than the feeder belt.



...or even better...take out a Chinook with a whole lot of SEALs in it....

What i mean is, a lucky shot is a lucky shot, it can hit the engine, the rotors etc......and if you try making it as armored as the Mi Hind version......then it becomes heavier....


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> And add-on is always an add-on, with its own compromises.



Which is why I am more in favor of the Chinese Z-10..
larger platform.. longer endurance and on station time.
And a lot more space for growth and survivablity.

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## rohailmalhi

I have a Question .What abt the Friend and Foe system on this Heli.

Like for attacking other helis with the missile and stuff.


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## SQ8

rohailmalhi said:


> I have a Question .What abt the Friend and Foe system on this Heli.
> 
> Like for attacking other helis with the missile and stuff.



Usually not needed for the sort of weaponry this will carry..But since this is a turkish machine.It will be customized to the requirements of the user without any restrictions or perceived hidden "switches"


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## VelocuR

rohailmalhi said:


> I have a Question .What abt the Friend and Foe system on this Heli.
> 
> Like for attacking other helis with the missile and stuff.



Turkey has own IFF identification Friend or Foe system, which Pakistan can change position anytime. If Turkey permit with this system, Pakistan will able to fire down NATO helicopters with missiles. 

I believe, this helicopter is a big test relations between Turkey and Pakistan. US will likely to intervene this project or counterpart Italy will walk away.


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

RaptorRX707 said:


> Turkey has own IFF identification Friend or Foe system, which Pakistan can change position anytime. If Turkey permit with this system, Pakistan will able to fire down NATO helicopters with missiles.
> 
> I believe, this helicopter is a big test relations between Turkey and Pakistan. US will likely to intervene this project or counterpart Italy will walk away.


if that happens pakistan can get the wz10 instead. does the pakistani cobras also have this system?


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## VelocuR

Drawn_Sword_of_God said:


> if that happens pakistan can get the wz10 instead. does the pakistani cobras also have this system?



Nope. US gave Pakistan AH 1F/S Cobras in emergency to kill talibans and other terrorists activities. US is watching Pakistan Cobra helicopters where it goes, where it fights, and many movements. IFF included. 

Pakistan Army has also purchase 20 advanced SuperCobra (AH-1Z) in 2009 to replace aging AH-1F/S Cobras.....but this status is unknown due the current relations between US/Pakistan. Currenlty SuperCobra AH-1Z is not available for export til 2015. I urge Pakistan to withdraw this orders to focus on Z-10 (China helicopter we trust).


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## Irfan Baloch

Santro said:


> Which is why I am more in favor of the Chinese Z-10..
> larger platform.. longer endurance and on station time.
> And a lot more space for growth and survivablity.



has Z-10 been revived again? Few years back, I remember a report on BBC or some other British news channel where the reporter was patting himself for blocking the sale of components from western companies for this project. since that arms embargo only covered for weapon sales but not the components that could be used for military use although their primary function was civilian. In essence the British went all the way to Canada and other European countries and found out how the Chinese were sourcing different items from suppliers to secretly manufacture a weapon which was prohibited due to Chinese Tiananmen square massacre. 
The BBC or Channel4 guy was taking credit for shutting down the whole Z-10 project. 

my vote is for T-129, its based on a proven platform that has been deployed in peace keeping missions.

---------- Post added at 12:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------




penumbra said:


> ...
> What i mean is, a lucky shot is a lucky shot, it can hit the engine, the rotors etc......and if you try making it as armored as the Mi Hind version......then it becomes heavier....



T-129 body and rotars are protected against the 12.7 mm rounds. and the engine is also armor protected.

---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------




RaptorRX707 said:


> Pakistan Army has also purchase 20 advanced SuperCobra (AH-1Z) in 2009 to replace aging AH-1F/S Cobras.....but this status is unknown due the current relations between US/Pakistan. Currenlty SuperCobra AH-1Z is not available for export til 2015



looks like we can kiss the money goodbye like last time we paid for the F-16s and they didnt deliver them and even charged us for the storage haha talk about being stung again.


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## cabatli_53

RaptorRX707 said:


> Nope. US gave Pakistan AH 1F/S Cobras in emergency to kill talibans and other terrorists activities. US is watching Pakistan Cobra helicopters where it goes, where it fights, and many movements. IFF included.
> 
> Pakistan Army has also purchase *20 advanced SuperCobra (AH-1Z) in 2009* to replace aging AH-1F/S Cobras.....but this status is unknown due the current relations between US/Pakistan. Currenlty SuperCobra AH-1Z is not available for export til 2015. I urge Pakistan to withdraw this orders to focus on Z-10 (China helicopter we trust).



You mean AH-1W Super Cobra or Pakistan ordered AH-1Z KingCobra that Turkey selected in ATAK-1 tender but cause of some restrictions, It was cancelled ?


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## cabatli_53

Irfan Baloch said:


> has Z-10 been revived again? Few years back, I remember a report on BBC or some other British news channel where the reporter was patting himself for blocking the sale of components from western companies for this project. since that arms embargo only covered for weapon sales but not the components that could be used for military use although their primary function was civilian. In essence the British went all the way to Canada and other European countries and found out how the Chinese were sourcing different items from suppliers to secretly manufacture a weapon which was prohibited due to Chinese Tiananmen square massacre.
> The BBC or Channel4 guy was taking credit for shutting down the whole Z-10 project.
> 
> my vote is for T-129, its based on a proven platform that has been deployed in peace keeping missions.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> T-129 body and rotars are protected against the 12.7 mm rounds. and the engine is also armor protected.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *looks liek we can kiss the money goodbye like last time we paid for the F-16s and they didnt deliver them and even charged us for the storage haha talk about being stung again.*



As far as I know, If agreement signed, USA has to deliver all things they have guaranteed with agreement, Otherwise, Pakistan has rights to carry the event for international justices to punish contactor.


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## cabatli_53

RaptorRX707 said:


> Turkey has own IFF identification Friend or Foe system, which Pakistan can change position anytime. If Turkey permit with this system, Pakistan will able to fire down NATO helicopters with missiles.
> 
> I believe, this helicopter is a big test relations between Turkey and Pakistan. US will likely to intervene this project or counterpart Italy will walk away.



As Raptor said, Turkey has own IFF system and threat bank specially typed by Turkish engineers. It is just a matter of desicion for Turkey to add a country friend or foe to system. NATO don't have any rule to use a common IFF for any NATO member so As you know that Turkish F-16's lock on Greek fighters daily. I think IFF issue wouldn't be a problem If Pakistan orders T-129 Atak.


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## Irfan Baloch

cabatli_53 said:


> As Raptor said, Turkey has own IFF system and threat bank specially typed by Turkish engineers. It is just a matter of desicion for Turkey to add a country friend or foe to system. NATO don't have any rule to use a common IFF for any NATO member so As you know that Turkish F-16's lock on Greek fighters daily. I think IFF issue wouldn't be a problem If Pakistan orders T-129 Atak.



I hope our order wont affect the indcution of these gunships in Turkish forces? the more I learn about it , more I am impressed, i I have seen some videos of this copter and they are jaw dropping, not that in real combat it will be performing those but jsut shows how agile and nimble this machine is. the only possible weakness (as I see it ) I could find was that external feed to the Gattling gun. but if the casing provides same amount of protection like the rest of the hull then problem solved.
I thought it would be faster than Apache but its rougly 20 mph slower based on the given web data.


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## madmusti

Azerbaycan, Malaysia, Pakistan, & SouthKorea and Kingdom of Saudi Arabia wants to buy T-129 From Turkey ,because they can buy anyime if they wont !!!

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## Pak47

Looks advanced.

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## cabatli_53

Matured T-129 introduced to public and First T-129 A delivered to Turkish Army...








T-129A and Aselsan AVCI Helmet

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## tarrar

If Pakistan can try to negotiate with Russia to buy MI-28 Havoc then that is in my opinion without a doubt a best Attack heavy weight Helicopter.


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## cabatli_53

Closer look to Aselsan AVCI helmet

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## cabatli_53

First Atak handed over to Turkish Land Forces !!!

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## Faheka.afk

From https://twitter.com/warnesyworld

Alan Warnes &#8207;@warnesyworld

"Korea and Pakistan are both set to evaluate the T129 attack helicopter. "

"@mumairmasood A cracking attack helicopter with a lot of operational feedback integrated into its system courtesy of Turk Army Aviation. "

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## VelocuR

Thanks for sexy damn helicopter, the cost is 47 million, correct?

In 2010 evaluation


> Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including *Jordan and Pakistan.* Source



We are evaluating this helicopter again again.

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## cabatli_53



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## fatman17

what is the operational induction of the T-129 in Turkish Army - at least 2 years from now.
dont expect this platform to be in PK Army livery anytime soon.

my bet is that the super-cobra AH-1Z will be inducted in PAA sooner than the A-129.

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## TrMhMt

fatman17 said:


> what is the operational induction of the T-129 in Turkish Army - at least 2 years from now.
> dont expect this platform to be in PK Army livery anytime soon.
> 
> my bet is that the super-cobra AH-1Z will be inducted in PAA sooner than the A-129.



A-129? Do you mean T-129? 

IMPO, AH1Z is a good chopper actually one of the bests. If you need an attack chopper urgently, no need to wait for T-129. If you meant T-129.

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## cabatli_53



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## fatman17

TrMhMt said:


> A-129? Do you mean T-129?
> 
> IMPO, AH1Z is a good chopper actually one of the bests. If you need an attack chopper urgently, no need to wait for T-129. If you meant T-129.



my bad.....!


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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> my bad.....!



I think A-129 is its generic name from its Italian origin .. but I guess you did mean T-129 meaning this Augusta A-129 Mangusta from Turkey


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## MJaa

*First Batch of Turkish T-129A (AW729) Attack Helicopter

*

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## Nishan_101

MJaa said:


> *First Batch of Turkish T-129A (AW729) Attack Helicopter
> 
> *



Why not PAC and TAI try to design helicopters on their own and ATTACK ones also. My current bet is to go for 30 Z-10P Block-Is with license to produce it at PAC Kamra

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## Nishan_101

RaptorRX707 said:


> I hope Pakistan and China joint production licence and free-worry despite Italy-Turkish along with some US components and NATO access. Not only this, it will cost more expensives and spare parts problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have done my analysis which better options for Pakistan which is Z-10 helicopters over T-129, Apaches, and others. A bit disappointed Turkey didn't joint with Pakistan on this T-129, I understood NATO is priority for Turkey.



Z-10 is being supported by many Pakistanis but still some spectis says Army is going for T-129 ATAK, now we used to think that Pakistan is not doing well in every sector and people aren't happy with anything!!!! Nothing well is going to happen soon....

????


!

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## Arsalan

Nishan_101 said:


> Z-10 is being supported by many Pakistanis but still some spectis says Army is going for T-129 ATAK, now we used to think that Pakistan is not doing well in every sector and people aren't happy with anything!!!! Nothing well is going to happen soon....
> 
> ????
> 
> 
> !



Pakistan have evaluated T-129 to some extent and were satisfied. Perhaps this is what make us say that PA is more interested in T-129

However the NATO and US links, Along with more $$$ may have been a set back. WZ-10 is a better choice unless we get full ToT and In house production for T-129 and then it will bring T-129 and WZ-10 on level and only then PA will have two equal options to chose one from!
At the moment, number of factors support WZ-10!

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## Nishan_101

Arsalan said:


> Pakistan have evaluated T-129 to some extent and were satisfied. Perhaps this is what make us say that PA is more interested in T-129
> 
> However the NATO and US links, Along with more $$$ may have been a set back. WZ-10 is a better choice unless we get full ToT and In house production for T-129 and then it will bring T-129 and WZ-10 on level and only then PA will have two equal options to chose one from!
> At the moment, number of factors support WZ-10!



I hope that Z-10P will win.


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## cabatli_53

Roketsan UMTAS-L (Laser Guided) 






















At present, Roketsan developed two UMTAS AT Missile variant.

UMTAS-L (Laser Guided)
UMTAS-IIR (IIR Guided)







Bayar told that 3 T-129 where finished ready for use and 3 where at the assembly lines currently at TAI. 
4 T-129 where to be delivered to TAF at the end of 2012 and than every month a chopper.

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## cabatli_53

Roketsan UMTAS AT missile Launchers







First 100 serial produced Cirit semi active laser guided missiles delivered to Turkish Land Forces. Totally 2000 Cirit missiles will be produced for Turkish Army...









Along with IIR guided UMTAS, Laser guided one will also be an option for export markets.
Serial production is expected to commence in early 2013. UMTAS and CIRIT use a common laser seeker, which enables the combination of both systems in the same configuration for customised solutions.

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## cabatli_53

Roketsan UMTAS and T-129 ATAK





















2,75 inch Cirit of Atak helicopter. First 2.75 inch missile system that passed into serial production phase before rivals such as Israel, USA...etc

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## fatman17

cabalti_53 - what is the unit price $ =

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## cabatli_53

fatman17 said:


> cabalti_53 - what is the unit price $ =



I unfortunately don't know.


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## OrionHunter

Aeronaut said:


> *My photoshop Image for you guys depicting our Next generation Attack Helicopter Inshallah in Pakistan colors and this Image is dedicated to my Turkish Brother Cabatli 53 for his Great help and dedication.*


I can't see your photoshopped images!! Must be stealthy choppers and therefore invisible!!


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## fatman17

cabatli_53 said:


> I unfortunately don't know.



*now i'm guessing* - between US$ 30-40m per unit - brand new. 1 squadron of 20 helos = US$ 800m plus infrastructure and training - rounded off to a cool US$ 1 billion!!! - can PAA afford this?

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## cabatli_53

fatman17 said:


> cabalti_53 - what is the unit price $ =



but I think The T-129 Atak price (for Turkey) which is included serial production line, engineering efforts, training, education, trials, R&D's, other seperate agreements (such as MMW, moving map, obstacle detection systems, HMDU...etc) made with many Turkish institutes...etc will totally make it reach 40-45 maybe 50 million $.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> *now i'm guessing* - between US$ 30-40m per unit - brand new. 1 squadron of 20 helos = US$ 800m plus infrastructure and training - rounded off to a cool US$ 1 billion!!! - can PAA afford this?



manufacturing these in house and increasing the numbers a little bit will bring down the costs. Inducting a new platform and then inducting just 20 don't make it feasible both financially and to operate. IF PA do go for T-129, the numbers will be.must be increased (i guess three Squadron) and we must then go for ToT bringing down the prices with in-house production.

What do you say?

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## cabatli_53

Arsalan said:


> manufacturing these in house and increasing the numbers a little bit will bring down the costs. Inducting a new platform and then inducting just 20 don't make it feasible both financially and to operate. IF PA do go for T-129, the numbers will be.must be increased (i guess three Squadron) and we must then go for ToT bringing down the prices with in-house production.
> 
> What do you say?



The prices We are guesing are the initial costs that Turkey as owner of ATAK will shoulder. The serial production of Atak will bring down the prices sharply. TAI will manufacture 59+32 T-129 Atak A/B for only Turkish Armed Forces.

In additions, Turkey paid 111 million $ for 3 USA Marine second-hand AH-1W Super Cobras (Unit price of second-hand AH-1W almost comes to 40 million $) as stop-gap solution in recent days. T-129 Atak is brend-new copters which is proved to be more effective than SuperCobra's in field...


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## TR.1

Murat Bayar said in an inteview , everything will cost us $3.5 Billion which i think is fairly cheap . This means we will get all the rights to export this helicopter , this means the only assembly line will be in Turkiye , we can put any Turkish missile source codes and totally anything , stronger engine modifications, this will employ people , and 59 helicopters . I think this is great and keep the money inside the country.


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## fatman17

TR.1 said:


> Murat Bayar said in an inteview , everything will cost us $3.5 Billion which i think is fairly cheap . This means we will get all the rights to export this helicopter , this means the only assembly line will be in Turkiye , we can put any Turkish missile source codes and totally anything , stronger engine modifications, this will employ people , and 59 helicopters . I think this is great and keep the money inside the country.



US$60m/unit with weapons etc. so the helo cost maybe around US$40m.



cabatli_53 said:


> The prices We are guesing are the initial costs that Turkey as owner of ATAK will shoulder. The serial production of Atak will bring down the prices sharply. TAI will manufacture 59+32 T-129 Atak A/B for only Turkish Armed Forces.
> 
> In additions, Turkey paid 111 million $ for 3 USA Marine second-hand AH-1W Super Cobras (Unit price of second-hand AH-1W almost comes to 40 million $) as stop-gap solution in recent days. T-129 Atak is brend-new copters which is proved to be more effective than SuperCobra's in field...



US offered FMS/CSF funds amounting to 500m for 20 helos = 25m/per copy which is affordable.


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## TR.1

fatman17 said:


> US$60m/unit with weapons etc. so the helo cost maybe around US$40m.
> 
> 
> 
> US offered FMS/CSF funds amounting to 500m for 20 helos = 25m/per copy which is affordable.



If you divided 3.5 billion by 59 and got that, but your forgetting all the rights given, assembly line that will provide hundreds of jobs these will come with it so if someone just buy it will be cheaper.


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## fatman17

TR.1 said:


> If you divided 3.5 billion by 59 and got that, but your forgetting all the rights given, assembly line that will provide hundreds of jobs these will come with it so if someone just buy it will be cheaper.



i'm not questioning your viewpoint - this strategy is good for Turkey, my point is that at this time PK cannot afford it. we wish Turkey God speed with this project.

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## Arsalan

TR.1 said:


> If you divided 3.5 billion by 59 and got that, but your forgetting all the rights given, assembly line that will provide hundreds of jobs these will come with it so if someone just buy it will be cheaper.



its about Pakistan that can WE afford it or not!
No doubt this is best for Turkey. All the best.

For Pakistan, i think IF we do go for T-129, the idea will be more numbers and in house production. This will help bringing down the cost!
regards!


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## TR.1

Arsalan said:


> its about Pakistan that can WE afford it or not!
> No doubt this is best for Turkey. All the best.
> 
> For Pakistan, i think IF we do go for T-129, the idea will be more numbers and in house production. This will help bringing down the cost!
> regards!



No I know what you mean but what I'm saying is if you got 40mill by dividing 59 by 3.5 billion it will be less for Pakistan as they will buy directly and just cost of helicopters so how much does a super cobra cost? It will probably be around then prices maybe.

I think helicopter will be around 25-35 million


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## Arsalan

TR.1 said:


> No I know what you mean but what I'm saying is if you got 40mill by dividing 59 by 3.5 billion it will be less for Pakistan as they will buy directly and just cost of helicopters so how much does a super cobra cost? It will probably be around then prices maybe.
> 
> I think helicopter will be around 25-35 million



FMF will be involved IF PA get Cobra Gunships


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## eagleeye

i think nearly for the same price like a super copra is the t129 a better option. with all turkish elektronics, avionics and weapons it is more reliable than u.s or european gunships.

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## TR.1

Arsalan said:


> FMF will be involved IF PA get Cobra Gunships



T-129 is utilised against terror operations and therefore it can go to very high altitude and stronger engine, 5 blades, this will also be useful for Pakistan terrain and against terrorism.

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## Luftwaffe

Arsalan said:


> For Pakistan, i think IF we do go for T-129, the idea will be more numbers and in house production. This will help bringing down the cost!



I doubt 20 odd airframes will bring the cost down in house production approximately $1B-$1.2 for a squadron is a large sum, PA could be waiting for a better economy, evaluating a product does not necessary mean that PA is going to purchase it. 

AH-1 modernization could help PA extend the life of current AH-1s apart from Future procurement through FMF other than that T-129 should only be purchased as a replacement of AH-1F/S provided Funds are available.


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## madmusti

First Turkey ,then Pakistan and Korea


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## cabatli_53

fatman17 said:


> US$60m/unit with weapons etc. so the helo cost maybe around US$40m.
> 
> 
> 
> *US offered FMS/CSF funds amounting to 500m for 20 helos = 25m/per copy which is affordable.*




Which model is that ? because Recent months, Turkey ordered 3 second-hand AH-1W SuperCobras worth 111 million $. One old AH-1W cost reached almost 40 million $ to Turkey.


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## cabatli_53

..............


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## ozi2000

I thought 111m dollars includes spare parts like 7 extra engines etc...30M dollars each would be more likely

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## TR.1

yh includes extra engines and other parts


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## Kompromat

*Update*

TAI is pushing its T-129 attack helicopter to fulfill Pakistan&#8217;s requirements for an AH-1F Cobra replacement.According to a TAI spokesman, a deal was nearly signed with Pakistan for 15 T-129 helicopters, but it stalled because of financial issues. Due to the operational environments of the Pakistani and Turkish militaries being very similar in topographical and climatic terms, Bilgi is confident Pakistan will see its future attack helicopter in the T-129.

The T-129 program includes other Turkish defense firms, such as defense electronic system firm Aselsan and rocket munitions developer/manufacturer Roketsan. The Turkish defense ministry is very keen to promote the T-129 to potential foreign customers &#8212; and Pakistan and South Korea are key targets.

China and Turkey battle for sales in Pakistani arms fair | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## airmarshal

I wish this deal go through. It will be a great symbol of collaboration among our brother countries.

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## Edevelop

How about 1 squadron of T-129 and 1 squadron of WZ-10?

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## Donatello

cb4 said:


> How about 1 squadron of T-129 and 1 squadron of WZ-10?




......and how about another one of Eurocopter Tiger.......and some AH-64s.......but then why leave out the Mi 35 so lets have those as well.....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We need to move beyond talk point and start signing deals already

It should be a straight forward order for *120 Helicopters* for Pakistan Army`s operations 
60 helicopters for Western Border , and 60 helicopters for counter insurgency operations 

Ideally if we can have TOT or license production it would be ideal

Cuz I personally hate cobra helicopters they look so fragile and weak


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## Edevelop

Donatello said:


> ......and how about another one of Eurocopter Tiger.......and some AH-64s.......but then why leave out the Mi 35 so lets have those as well.....



Sarcasm at its best


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## Luftwaffe

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> It should be a straight forward order for *120 Helicopters* for Pakistan Army`s operations 60 helicopters for Western Border , and 60 helicopters for counter insurgency operations
> 
> Ideally if we can have TOT or license production it would be ideal Cuz I personally hate cobra helicopters they look so fragile and weak



Who is going to pay for those 120 Gunships let alone production-manufacturing of Equipment Parts; that would be a straight $5B Project.

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## fatman17

Aeronaut said:


> *Update*
> 
> TAI is pushing its T-129 attack helicopter to fulfill Pakistans requirements for an AH-1F Cobra replacement.According to a TAI spokesman, a deal was nearly signed with Pakistan for 15 T-129 helicopters, but it stalled because of financial issues. Due to the operational environments of the Pakistani and Turkish militaries being very similar in topographical and climatic terms, Bilgi is confident Pakistan will see its future attack helicopter in the T-129.
> 
> The T-129 program includes other Turkish defense firms, such as defense electronic system firm Aselsan and rocket munitions developer/manufacturer Roketsan. The Turkish defense ministry is very keen to promote the T-129 to potential foreign customers  and Pakistan and South Korea are key targets.
> 
> China and Turkey battle for sales in Pakistani arms fair | Defense News | defensenews.com



15 T-129's would cost close to US$ 750m with weapons, infrastructure and training. sounds difficult to materialise. 15 AH-1Z super cobras would cost ~US$ 450-500m under FMS which army is still hoping and pushing for.

if TAI offers a loan then the story changes but i doubt it.

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## razgriz19

sooner or later those cobras will get replaced, very likely by the chinese ones as only they will be able give us on soft loans.

but it also depends on the next election 
we could get the AH-1Z viper if anyone besides IK gets elected.


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## cabatli_53

If It is stated that Pakistan and Turkey have almost signed a deal for 15 T-129 Atak but stalled cause of financial problems, The conclusion would be as follows;

-Pakistan and Turkish officials sit on same table to talk all details about Attack helicopter deal and finalized the meetings to meet the requirements of Pakistan Army.
-Pakistan has already choosed its next generation attack helicopter. It is T-129 Atak-B
-The likely deal is delaying cause of financial problems. 
-When those problems fixed, The deal is going to be signed with TAI.
-The likely contact contains 15 T-129 Atak-B helicopters.

Congrats !!!

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## graphican

Guys, 

I beg your pardon for asking a basic question but what is helicopter's defense against any small to medium range same or shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile like Anza or stinger etc? In my understanding, attack helicopters are pretty easy targets in the battle field and are kind of "flying ducks" to one such attack. Is it so?


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## cabatli_53

T-129 Atak in S. Korea Tender !!!

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## cabatli_53



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## Jango

graphican said:


> Guys,
> 
> I beg your pardon for asking a basic question but what is helicopter's defense against any small to medium range same or shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile like Anza or stinger etc? In my understanding, attack helicopters are pretty easy targets in the battle field and are kind of "flying ducks" to one such attack. Is it so?



http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Helo-Survivability-June-2009.pdf

IMO, a helicopter is still a sitting duck. A flare or chaff system will be effective in some situations, non-effective in others, it has it's limits as well.

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## Rocky rock

Well i think we will get them near about 2017/18.... so be patient!


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## BordoEnes

Nice, The TAI T-129 would be a great helicopter for Pakistani army no doubt. However i feel obligated to answer some questions here, Firstly when i read the specs of both T-129 and WZ-10 you can immediatly see there is little difference beside the MWR, But this to can be integrated into T-129 with Meteksans MILDAR. So wether its WZ-10 or T-129 they both will be hunting beasts

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## BordoEnes

Rocky rock said:


> Well i think we will get them near about 2017/18.... so be patient!



No thats way to late, Turkey will receive all its 60 TAI T-129 Attack Helicopters at the end of 2013 (9 in 2012, 51 in 2013) , So lets say productions wil start beginning 2014, With such number it will probably finished by the end of 2014, While in the mean time Pakistan Sends Pilots for training. So you can have T-129s Ready around mid-2015.

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## cabatli_53

BordoEnes said:


> No thats way to late, Turkey will receive all its 60 TAI T-129 Attack Helicopters at the end of 2013 (9 in 2012, 51 in 2013) , So lets say productions wil start beginning 2014, With such number it will probably finished by the end of 2014, While in the mean time Pakistan Sends Pilots for training. So you can have T-129s Ready around mid-2015.




Annual T-129-B production rate will be 12 Bro. Manufacturing all 50+ Atak within one year is impossible in world conditions...

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## Tshering22

cabatli_53 said:


> If It is stated that Pakistan and Turkey have almost signed a deal for 15 T-129 Atak but stalled cause of financial problems, The conclusion would be as follows;
> 
> -Pakistan and Turkish officials sit on same table to talk all details about Attack helicopter deal and finalized the meetings to meet the requirements of Pakistan Army.
> -Pakistan has already choosed its next generation attack helicopter. It is T-129 Atak-B
> -The likely deal is delaying cause of financial problems.
> -When those problems fixed, The deal is going to be signed with TAI.
> -The likely contact contains 15 T-129 Atak-B helicopters.
> 
> Congrats !!!



You got any link for the deal? Thanks in advance. Right now, attack helicopters is the most important thing Pakistani Army needs instead of their proposed nuclear subs, and fixed wing fighter jets.


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## Tshering22

Rocky rock said:


> Well i think we will get them near about 2017/18.... so be patient!



You need to halt buying strategic weapons and concentrate on getting stuff that helps in TTP's destruction. Submarines and fighter jets won't get them. Your government should halt their buying and focus on gunship acquisition ASAP.

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## SamranAli

Tshering22 said:


> You need to halt buying strategic weapons and concentrate on getting stuff that helps in TTP's destruction. Submarines and fighter jets won't get them. Your government should halt their buying and focus on gunship acquisition ASAP.



Thanks for your valuable advice, Generals sitting in GHQ will listen to you.

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## Rajput_Pakistani

graphican said:


> Guys,
> 
> I beg your pardon for asking a basic question but what is helicopter's defense against any small to medium range same or shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile like Anza or stinger etc? In my understanding, attack helicopters are pretty easy targets in the battle field and are kind of "flying ducks" to one such attack. Is it so?



The beauty of Attack helicopters like Apache or ATAK T-129 rest with their operational capabilities beyond the reach of MANPADS.
Consider the example of Hellfire fired from an Apache. Hellfire has a range of 8km. Apache acquired the target from tree-top height. Many times hiding itself behind trees or natural obstacles. It engages a tank or other target, fire the missile and there it is.. a tank neutralize, without its poor inmates even knowing what has got them. MANPADS need a target insight, with large IR signature. So an attack helicopter is not a sitting duck.

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## KRAIT

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> The beauty of Attack helicopters like Apache or ATAK T-129 rest with their operational capabilities beyond the reach of MANPADS.
> Consider the example of Hellfire fired from an Apache. Hellfire has a range of 8km. Apache acquired the target from tree-top height. Many times hiding itself behind trees or natural obstacles. It engages a tank or other target, fire the missile and there it is.. a tank neutralize, without its poor inmates even knowing what has got them. MANPADS need a target insight, with large IR signature. So an attack helicopter is not a sitting duck.


Apache can even control and operate Drones too. Also they can direct the fire of other helicopters while hovering at safe distance. This is the reason India asked for Apache Longbows as it can guide our LCH and other helis.


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## cabatli_53

Tshering22 said:


> You got any link for the deal? Thanks in advance. Right now, attack helicopters is the most important thing Pakistani Army needs instead of their proposed nuclear subs, and fixed wing fighter jets.




Not a deal but a source which underline a likely agreement between Turkey and Pakistan to be signed for 15 T-129 Atak helicopters but shalled cause of financial problems...


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## cabatli_53

graphican said:


> Guys,
> 
> I beg your pardon for asking a basic question but what is helicopter's defense against any small to medium range same or shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile like Anza or stinger etc? In my understanding, attack helicopters are pretty easy targets in the battle field and are kind of "flying ducks" to one such attack. Is it so?



ATAK has 360 degree covered Radar, Lazer and Missile Warning Receiver. The threats detected are being neutralized by IR jammer (CHaff/FLARE) or Radar jammers which depends of missile type. 

Aselsan-Mikes EW systems

&#8226; Countermeasure Dispensing System (CMDS),
&#8226; Missile Warning System (MWS),
&#8226; Laser Warning Receiver (LWR),
&#8226; RF Jammer (RFJ),
&#8226; Radar Warning Receiver (RWR),
&#8226; Suite Central Processing System (SCPS),
&#8226; IR Countermeasures (IRCM)

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## SEAL

What financial issues yaar i don't understand this lame logic except DHA and other BS things every project is struck due to financial issues even UAV's  I don't know how this process works but this sale purchase should be under professionals and MoD.


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## cabatli_53

Impressive indeed...

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## itaskol

after zhuhai airshow,chinese Z 10 is now open for sale.
our pakistan friend should think again before choose T 129.
it could be a interresting competition. 
and attack heli is not so urgent for Pakistan. you have enough time to make a right choice.

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## Luftwaffe

itaskol said:


> after zhuhai airshow,chinese Z 10 is now open for sale.
> our pakistan friend should think again before choose T 129. it could be a interesting competition.
> and attack heli is not so urgent for Pakistan. you have enough time to make a right choice.



T-129 would be atleast $35M each not including weapons/over the life time costs-equipment training. It would be interesting if Pakistan checks out Z-10 and I think Pakistan should not ignore Z-10s they should be evaluated thoroughly.


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## hassan1



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## Rajput_Pakistani

hassan1 said:


>



Good PS Hassan.. bas thora sa tilt ho gya flag 



Luftwaffe said:


> T-129 would be atleast $35M each not including weapons/over the life time costs-equipment training. It would be interesting if Pakistan checks out Z-10 and I think Pakistan should not ignore Z-10s they should be evaluated thoroughly.



I hope we will go where we will get ToT.


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## AKINCI

nuclearpak said:


> http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Helo-Survivability-June-2009.pdf
> 
> Hews Helicopter Electronic Warfare Self Protection System
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, a helicopter is still a sitting duck. A flare or chaff system will be effective in some situations, non-effective in others, it has it's limits as well.



HEWS is the Integrated Self Protection System, developed by ASELSAN for fixed and rotary wing aircrafts. Integrated around the Suite Central Processing Unit, HEWS provides situational awareness and threat specific countermeasures during mission with; 

Radar Warning, 

RF Jamming, 

Missile Warning, 

Chaff/Flare Dispensing, 

Laser Warning, 

IR Countermeasure integration capabilities. 



HEWS is an Integrated EW Self Protection System for air platforms designed so as to provide Maximum Protection for the aircraft with Minimum Workload for the crew. Information from the subsystems are gathered, evaluated and after data fusion and decision process, the most appropriate countermeasure technique is applied. 

Suite Management 

State of the art Integrated Self Protection System approach based on a sophisticated suite central processing function for the EW suite 

Flexible and modular integration around a Central Management Unit that provides open architecture to host additional EW subsystems according to the user requirements 

Dual redundant MIL-STD-1553B EW Bus architecture 

Support of various communication standards: MIL-STD-1553, RS-485, RS-232, ARINC-429, Ethernet 

Integration with on-board avionics 

Simultaneous evaluation of the threat, situation, aircraft and intelligence data 

Full situational awareness for the pilot 



Missile Warning 

Missile Warning System based on passive ultraviolet technology 

360° spatial coverage in azimuth by 4 sensors 

4 steradian spatial coverage by 6 sensors 

High probability of detection 

High spatial resolution 

Low False Alarm Rate (FAR) 

Detection of missile threats at initial launch phases (provides maximum time for countermeasures) 

Fast reaction for countermeasure dispensing 

Multiple threat analysis and tracking capability 

No need for special cooling 



Chaff/Flare Dispensing 

Fast reaction following threat detection 

Fully programmable Mission Data File architecture 

Designed for seamless glass cockpit integration 

Application of optimum countermeasure technique specific to the threat, managed by Suite Central Processing Unit 

Minimum workload for the pilot in a very dense threat environment 

Auto, Semi-Auto, Manual and By-Pass operating modes 

Simultaneous dispensing 

Numerous Chaff/Flare dispensing programs against RF and E/O guided threats 

Continuous inventory report and warning when payload quantity is critical 

Maximum redundancy through by-pass lines 

Automatic misfire detection and correction with the same type of payload 

Utilizes standard NATO cartridges and compatibles 

Fast reaction through discrete countermeasure dispense selection 



Radar Warning 

Fast threat detection, threat classification and identification of the threats defined in the Mission Data File 

Handling Pulse, CW and complex (any combination of pulse and CW signals) radar signals 

Long range detection and high Probability of Intercept 

High accuracy of Direction of Arrival 

Operability in very dense threat environment 

Fully programmable Mission Data File architecture 

Detection capability for threats specified as unknown threat 

360° spatial coverage 



RF Jamming 

RF energy transmission enabling deceptive and noise jamming techniques in a dynamic threat environment 

Tracking and jamming the threats autonomously 

Phased array antenna and solid state transmitter architecture 

Fully programmable Mission Data File architecture 

Software controlled interfaces 

360 spatial coverage 



Laser Warning 

Detection of laser designator, beam rider and range finder threats 

360° spatial coverage 

High accuracy of Angle of Arrival 

High sensitivity and Probability of Detection 

Low False Alarm Rate (FAR) 

Fully programmable Mission Data File architecture 



IR Countermeasure 

Integration of IRCM equipment to HEWS Suite 



and more... 

Full glass-cockpit compatibility 

Advanced Man-Machine Interface with Multi Function Display (MFD) support 

Night Vision Goggles (NVG) compatibility 

Descriptive and adaptive symbology on Multi Function Display for fast recognition of threats 

Programmable audio messages and alerts for maximum situational awareness including threat tipe and direction of arrival 

In flight event and RWR Pulse Description Word recording 

Single-point uploading/downloading of multiple Mission Data File and mission records through Pilot Control Panel 

Various levels of BIT support 

Software Support Station for Mission Data File generation and Post Mission Data Analysis 

Built-in pilot training mode 

Interoperability of each sub-system with each other

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## Myth_buster_1

itaskol said:


> after zhuhai airshow,chinese Z 10 is now open for sale.
> our pakistan friend should think again before choose T 129.
> it could be a interresting competition.
> and attack heli is not so urgent for Pakistan. you have enough time to make a right choice.



The Z-10 for pakistan most likely to be a export version where as Turkey is open to selling T-129 to Pak as it is.


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## Irfan Baloch

Myth_buster_1 said:


> The Z-10 for pakistan most likely to be a export version where as Turkey is open to selling T-129 to Pak as it is.



thats true,
T-129 is already operational and a tested platform. Z-10 whereas has suffered a lot of setbacks due to embargo on western equipment with duel purpose usage. it is possible to make one or 2 units but to make a serial production and unrestricted access to spare parts its essential that the supply chain is not subject to usual western blackmail and embargo which plagued Z-10, the Chinese helicopter might turn out to be a potent and impressive platform once it has Chinese equipment but that might have to wait. 

T-129 as noted already is available for sale now. I guess the issue is finances. specially under Zardari government one must thank god that he doesnt have same access to military as he does to PIA and steel mils. look what has become of them.

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## Peregrine

Chinese one is more shinnier, lets go with that.

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## TR.1

Peregrine said:


> Chinese one is more shinnier, lets go with that.



We can polish ours

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## Kompromat

We, should have diversity in our fleet, T-129 fits PA.

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## tesla

-------------------


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## SEAL

Jahan se commission zaida milna ha wohi purchase karein gy maybe army reject both and go for AH-1Z.

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> We, should have diversity in our fleet, T-129 fits PA.



As long as Pakistan has the bag full of Cash, I read the deal stalled for T-129 because we don't have mon-ey ". 

At this point I doubt if Pakistan can even spare $500M for 10 Gunships that includes everything.

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## Kompromat

Luftwaffe said:


> As long as Pakistan has the bag full of Cash, I read the deal stalled for T-129 because we don't have mon-ey ".
> 
> At this point I doubt if Pakistan can even spare $500M for 10 Gunships that includes everything.



Vote for PPP-MQM-PML-N/Q again, and you would be fighting with sticks --with "gunships" written on them

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## Tshering22

SamranAli said:


> Thanks for your valuable advice, Generals sitting in GHQ will listen to you.



It's just a recommendation. Your generals always had their priorities wrong; To ensure that they have some semblance of political power, they targeted you for years against us, misguiding you and doing coups after coups without any respect to your national constitution.

They made themselves larger than life to make you guys admire them. 

Today TTP is devouring your country open. 

If your generals had the dignity and half the aggression they showed towards "responding to Indian attacks", TTP would have never even dreamt of doing what it is doing in your country. 

GHQ needs to seriously reconsider its obsession with political power in your country. 

In their bid to remain larger than life, your generals will only ruin your country from within. 


Tell me:

Who is suffering? The Generals? No. Zardari? No. Raja Pervez? No. Gilani? No.

It is that common soldier of yours who fights against TTP to protect you lot from those lunatics. 

It is the common man who wants to earn his living but nowadays has to even be thankful for living everyday. 

The situation in your main cities is all for you to see, mate.

It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out why GHQ's priorities are so screwed up and how it is harming your country.


Your first political objective should be to re-humanize the military which is revered head over heels and bring civilian power back.

Your military's priority should be to secure your internal cities against TTP at any cost. They need to get their acts together.


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## Irfan Baloch

fox said:


> Jahan se commission zaida milna ha wohi purchase karein gy maybe army reject both and go for AH-1Z.



Bili kay khawab
@Tshering22
your post is good but off topic really

there are some interesting points you got so please make a copy and discuss in an appropriate channel

lets show some respect to our Turkish friends

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## VCheng

Tshering22 said:


> ...........
> GHQ needs to seriously reconsider its obsession with political power in your country. ..........



It ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

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## Jango

Aeronaut said:


> We, should have diversity in our fleet, T-129 fits PA.



Diversity always comes at a cost. Multiple platforms demand as many maintenance setups, support infrastructure, spares etc etc, all of which you know.

At the moment, the Zulu cobra would be the best way to go, a little quantity of them, and look at the T-129 and Z-10 at a later stage with a bit of active involvement in modifying the heli to our own needs.

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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> It ain't gonna happen anytime soon.


where?
in India? looks like you are right, its their military that put a spanner in any peace process and wants to keep the Kashir and Siachin Issue hot.

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> where?
> in India? looks like you are right, its their military that put a spanner in any peace process and wants to keep the Kashir and Siachin Issue hot.



To be fair, that can be said of *both sides*.

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## Irfan Baloch

Irfan Baloch said:


> where?
> in India? looks like you are right, its their military that put a spanner in any peace process and wants to keep the Kashir and Siachin Issue hot.



--
ops sorry I should stay on topic

gunships should be a priority over submarines and ballistic missiles because the way TTP is conducting its operations, there wont be any "strategic installation" left if they are not curbed via drones and gunships

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> where?
> in India? looks like you are right, its their military that put a spanner in any peace process and wants to keep the Kashir and Siachin Issue hot.





VCheng said:


> To be fair, that can be said of *both sides*.





Irfan Baloch said:


> --
> ops sorry I should stay on topic
> 
> gunships should be a priority over submarines and ballistic missiles because the way TTP is conducting its operations, there wont be any "strategic installation" left if they are not curbed via drones and gunships



Even gunships won't be effective if a sizable minority (or majority, perhaps) of the people at large support TTP's aims.

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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> To be fair, that can be said of *both sides*.


I like it when people are fair in their comments

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## Abingdonboy

Irfan Baloch said:


> where?
> in India? looks like you are right, its their military that put a spanner in any peace process and wants to keep the Kashir and Siachin Issue hot.



Maybe this is true of the Indian political establishment but the Indian military is not like the Pakistani military in the sense the Indian military has not political ambitions or say-they are completly subservient to the civilian establishment. 



@topic. Is there a particular reason there is no cinsideration being given to US offereings? The AH-1Z and especially the AH-64E are at the top of their fields. For anyone looking at the T129 are the Super Cobra or Apache not worthy of consideration? Or is this a political move?

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## krash

VCheng said:


> Even gunships won't be effective if a sizable minority (or majority, perhaps) of the people at large support TTP's aims.



We're good then.

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## a1b2c145

nuclearpak said:


> Diversity always comes at a cost. Multiple platforms demand as many maintenance setups, support infrastructure, spares etc etc, all of which you know.
> 
> At the moment, the Zulu cobra would be the best way to go, a little quantity of them, and look at the T-129 and Z-10 at a later stage with a bit of active involvement in modifying the heli to our own needs.



WZ-10&#65292;a good choise~~~
Best Regards&#65281;

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This much evaluation is not even done by larki dekhne wale when they come to see the girl


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

cabatli_53 said:


> Impressive indeed...



I think clearly the Helicopter is good enough and agile enough to purchase 100 units with transfer of technology of the engines

This should be targetted by Pakistan Army it will increase our operation against not only Militrary foes but also the problem from Afghanistan crossing borders

Pasand hai bahi get it ordered already

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## cabatli_53

Turkey, Pakistan Seek Better Ties


ISLAMABAD &#8212; Turkey is trying to broaden defense industry links with Pakistan, but Pakistan&#8217;s poor financial situation is hampering efforts.

That opens the door to a possible deal with China, experts said, which carries its own set of issues.

&#8220;Pakistan is one of our closest partners in defense, and they are already buying a lot of equipment from us,&#8221; said a senior official responsible for foreign relations at Turkey&#8217;s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM). &#8220;We would do whatever we can to further boost our cooperation.&#8221;

Former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, agrees.

&#8220;The recent visit by Turkey&#8217;s defense undersecretary was an indicator that Turkey remains committed to developing defense relations further,&#8221; he said.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said Turkey is a valued supplier that &#8220;offers [Pakistan] a route to Western technology&#8221; such as previously purchased NATO standard communication equipment.

Turkey&#8217;s efforts were showcased at Pakistan&#8217;s biannual defense fair, the Nov. 7-11 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS).

Turkish defense software and systems integration firm Havelsan secured orders for its shipboard Genesis C4I combat management system, and is negotiating a memorandum of understanding with the Pakistani military to further co-develop simulators for JF-17, F-16, C-130 and MFI-17 Mushak/Super Mushak aircraft.

But completion of large-scale deals remains elusive.

At IDEAS 2008, Havelsan project management firm STM and defense electronics company Aselsan promoted a Pakistani-specific corvette based on Turkey&#8217;s MILGEM/Ada program, which also sought to maximize the participation of Pakistan&#8217;s private industry based on Turkey&#8217;s defense industrial experience.

This stalled due to a lack of Pakistani financial resources, but at IDEAS 2012, a Havelsan spokesman said there had been &#8220;some progress in the right direction.&#8221;

An official linked to Pakistan&#8217;s naval industry said he thought the &#8220;opportunity has passed&#8221; and both parties had &#8220;gone their separate ways and are working on their own.&#8221;

Pakistan does not have the required indigenous design experience, so this may be a ruse to lower the price of a Turkish proposal. Turkey might propose a more affordable alternative, the SSM official said.

&#8220;Turkey would do its ultimate to boost cooperation in the field of naval vessels,&#8221; he said, and these may include the type of ships produced by Turkey&#8217;s Yonca Onuk yard, which promoted its MRTP-24 and MRTP-44 concepts at IDEAS 2012.

Turkey is also now pushing its T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship to replace Pakistan&#8217;s AH-1F Cobras.

&#8220;Our aim is to export these helicopters to friendly countries, and we will continue to work toward that end,&#8221; the SSM official said.

More attack helicopters are &#8220;essential&#8221; for Pakistan to conduct operations in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, &#8220;notably North Waziristan,&#8221; Cloughley said.

The previously touted deal to acquire the U.S. AH-1Z helicopter is now unlikely to occur, he said. The Pentagon has stated that domestic orders for the AH-1Z must be approved first, and congressional opposition also is likely, he said. The T-129 is &#8220;the best alternative,&#8221; he said.

Gorkem Bilgi of Turkish Aerospace Industries said that the T-129 had been extensively adapted to suit Turkish military requirements, but climatic and topographical similarities between Pakistan and Turkey and similar mission profile requirements make it ideally suited for Pakistan&#8217;s needs.

Bilgi said the T-129 would be indigenous except for the U.S.-sourced LHTEC CTS800-4A engines.

Establishing a second production line for export orders would deliver the first helicopter &#8220;after 36 months.&#8221; However, negotiations for approximately 15 helicopters have stalled due to Pakistan&#8217;s poor finances.

Cloughley highlights Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;extremely large&#8221; commitment in the Tribal Areas, its &#8220;enormous&#8221; operating costs that will increase as winter sets in, plus the likelihood of having to deploy more units due to growing pressure from militants.

&#8220;There will therefore be less cash for acquisition of capital equipment, and attack helicopters do not come cheap,&#8221; he said.

Though Turkey &#8220;cannot afford to indulge in charity,&#8221; it may be possible &#8220;to cobble together a deal, perhaps involving offsets, that Pakistan could afford, but it will take a lot of negotiation,&#8221; he said.

Bilgi said a budgetary proposal was made to Pakistan, but he did not provide details.

&#8220;It could be possible to discuss these issues with Pakistan, according to requirements of the customer in the near future,&#8221; Bilgi said.

Neither the SSM official nor Bilgi would provide a unit cost.

Zafar Jaspal, director and associate professor of the School of Politics and International Relations at Quaid-e-Azam University in Pakistan, said a deal worth up to $500 million for 15 T-129s may yet be affordable.

He said Pakistan may potentially draw on the Coalition Support Fund (CSF), &#8220;because these helicopters could be required for military operations against terrorist groups.&#8221;

The CSF reimburses Pakistan for services rendered in support of the International Security Assistance Force&#8217;s Afghan mission. In July, $1.18 billion was released for the period July 2010-May 2011.

The China Option
Jaspal concedes China may be the only alternative.

The problem is that China&#8217;s CAIC WZ-10 helicopter is new and untested, and not developed from a combat-tested design, such as the T-129, he said.

The SSM official said Turkey is not out to compete with China. &#8220;China is an important country in Asia and they have such an influence on the naval and air platforms. ... It is their [Pakistan&#8217;s and China&#8217;s] business in that part of the world.&#8221;

Though the &#8220;T-129 is a very good prospect,&#8221; Shabbir said, Turkey will not be &#8220;able to offer a very generous economic package, which the Chinese are very good at.&#8221;

He said the WZ-10 is viewed as Pakistan&#8217;s long-term insurance policy in the absence of an alternative, but as it matures, &#8220;might become the preferred choice.&#8221;

Cloughley concurs, but said, &#8220;it would take a long time for such a deal to be brokered.&#8221;

Ultimately, Shabbir said, it will come down to technological and performance comparisons, though the Western engine may count against the T-129 due to Pakistan&#8217;s fear of sanctions.

&#8220;The Pakistani-Turkish relationship is going to thrive,&#8221; he said. &#8220;The only thing limiting it is [Pakistan&#8217;s] dire financial situation, but it is not going to be like this in the long term. Things are only going to get better.&#8221;

Turkey, Pakistan Seek Better Ties | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## Edevelop

I hope it goes like this: T-129 For the Army and WZ-10 for the Air Force. No doubt the issue is $$

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## Inception-06

I hope for WZ-10, as a long term solution it is the best and cheapest product for Pakistan.

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## cabatli_53

Ulla said:


> I hope for WZ-10, as a long term solution it is the best and cheapest product for Pakistan.





cabatli_53 said:


> Gorkem Bilgi of Turkish Aerospace Industries said that the T-129 had been *extensively adapted to suit Turkish military requirements*, but *climatic and topographical similarities between Pakistan and Turkey and similar mission profile requirements make it ideally suited for Pakistan&#8217;s needs*.
> http://www.defensenews.com/article/...etter-Ties?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE



The rivalry copter's Power/Weight ratio !!!



cabatli_53 said:


> Indian LCH:
> Power (*1,430shp*)/Weight(*5800kg*)= *493shp/tonnes*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese WZ-10:
> Power(*1350shp*)/Weight(*7000+kg*)= *385 shp/tonnes*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkish T-129 Atak
> Power(*1361shp*)/Weight(*5000kg*)=*550shp/tonnes*

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## cabatli_53

WZ-10


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## sohaib91

This is cool, i hope deal gets matured soon


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## Irfan Baloch

has the T-129 been deployed by the Turkish army in the operations against the militants?
like any gunship its biggest threat comes from the RGP, how are the pilots trained to deal with that specially when the situation requires it to hover and fly low?


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## VelocuR

What do you mean by WZ-10 is new untested and not developed from combat ??











Impressive!



There is worrisome on T-129's main engines from US, forget it. 





cabatli_53 said:


> Turkey, Pakistan Seek Better Ties
> 
> Turkey is also now pushing its T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship to replace Pakistan&#8217;s AH-1F Cobras.
> 
> &#8220;Our aim is to export these helicopters to friendly countries, and we will continue to work toward that end,&#8221; the SSM official said.
> 
> More attack helicopters are &#8220;essential&#8221; for Pakistan to conduct operations in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, &#8220;notably North Waziristan,&#8221; Cloughley said.
> 
> The previously touted deal to acquire the U.S. AH-1Z helicopter is now unlikely to occur, he said. The Pentagon has stated that domestic orders for the AH-1Z must be approved first, and congressional opposition also is likely, he said. The T-129 is &#8220;the best alternative,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Gorkem Bilgi of Turkish Aerospace Industries said that the T-129 had been extensively adapted to suit Turkish military requirements, but climatic and topographical similarities between Pakistan and Turkey and similar mission profile requirements make it ideally suited for Pakistan&#8217;s needs.
> 
> Bilgi said the T-129 would be indigenous except for the *U.S.-sourced LHTEC CTS800-4A engines.*
> 
> Establishing a second production line for export orders would deliver the first helicopter &#8220;after 36 months.&#8221; However, negotiations for approximately 15 helicopters have stalled due to Pakistan&#8217;s poor finances.
> 
> Cloughley highlights Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;extremely large&#8221; commitment in the Tribal Areas, its &#8220;enormous&#8221; operating costs that will increase as winter sets in, plus the likelihood of having to deploy more units due to growing pressure from militants.
> 
> &#8220;There will therefore be less cash for acquisition of capital equipment, and attack helicopters do not come cheap,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Though Turkey &#8220;cannot afford to indulge in charity,&#8221; it may be possible &#8220;to cobble together a deal, perhaps involving offsets, that Pakistan could afford, but it will take a lot of negotiation,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Bilgi said a budgetary proposal was made to Pakistan, but he did not provide details.
> 
> &#8220;It could be possible to discuss these issues with Pakistan, according to requirements of the customer in the near future,&#8221; Bilgi said.
> 
> Neither the SSM official nor Bilgi would provide a unit cost.
> 
> Zafar Jaspal, director and associate professor of the School of Politics and International Relations at Quaid-e-Azam University in Pakistan, said a deal worth up to $500 million for 15 T-129s may yet be affordable.
> 
> He said Pakistan may potentially draw on the Coalition Support Fund (CSF), &#8220;because these helicopters could be required for military operations against terrorist groups.&#8221;
> 
> The CSF reimburses Pakistan for services rendered in support of the International Security Assistance Force&#8217;s Afghan mission. In July, $1.18 billion was released for the period July 2010-May 2011.
> 
> The China Option
> Jaspal concedes China may be the only alternative.
> 
> The problem is that China&#8217;s CAIC *WZ-10 helicopter is new and untested, and not developed from a combat-tested design*, such as the T-129, he said.
> 
> The SSM official said Turkey is not out to compete with China. &#8220;China is an important country in Asia and they have such an influence on the naval and air platforms. ... It is their [Pakistan&#8217;s and China&#8217;s] business in that part of the world.&#8221;
> 
> Though the &#8220;T-129 is a very good prospect,&#8221; Shabbir said, *Turkey will not be &#8220;able to offer a very generous economic package, which the Chinese are very good at.&#8221;*
> 
> He said the WZ-10 is viewed as Pakistan&#8217;s long-term insurance policy in the absence of an alternative, but as it matures, &#8220;might become the preferred choice.&#8221;
> 
> Cloughley concurs, but said, &#8220;it would take a long time for such a deal to be brokered.&#8221;
> *
> Ultimately, Shabbir said, it will come down to technological and performance comparisons, though the Western engine may count against the T-129 due to Pakistan&#8217;s fear of sanctions.*
> 
> &#8220;The Pakistani-Turkish relationship is going to thrive,&#8221; he said. &#8220;The only thing limiting it is [Pakistan&#8217;s] dire financial situation, *but it is not going to be like this in the long term. Things are only going to get better.&#8221;*
> 
> Turkey, Pakistan Seek Better Ties | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## Ottoman_smack

> has the T-129 been deployed by the Turkish army in the operations against the militants?
> like any gunship its biggest threat comes from the RGP, how are the pilots trained to deal with that specially when the situation requires it to hover and fly low?


Has the WZ-10 been used on the real conflict?



> here is worrisome on T-129's main engines from US, forget it.



Why dont u worry about Wz-10 engine?You know it is using Russian engine.


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## BigDaddyWatch

> Why dont u worry about Wz-10 engine?You know it is using Russian engine.



Actually the Z-10 attack helicopter uses the WZ-9 turboshaft engine which is a domestic engine made in China.

When will the T-129 enter service ?


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## VelocuR

Ottoman_smack said:


> Why dont u worry about Wz-10 engine?You know it is using Russian engine.



Nothing worry, Russia and Pakistan are better relations as the example of JF-17, we still worry Turkey will accept US' engines sanctions on Pakistan after Afghanistan post war 2014. 

Turkey is not reliable partner than China. 




BigDaddyWatch said:


> Actually the Z-10 attack helicopter uses the WZ-9 turboshaft engine which is a domestic engine made in China.
> 
> When will the T-129 enter service ?



With the recent announcement, Mass production of Turkey's indigenous T-129 attack helicopters will begin in 2013

Same goes, T-129 is untested and new which haven't try experiences to kill PPK or innocent Kurds in conflicts.


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## VelocuR

WZ-10 armed helicopter is launching AKD-10 air-to-ground guided missile.



> WZ-10 chopper trumps US counterpart in maneuverability
> November 13, 2012
> 
> China's newly unveiled attack helicopter, the WZ-10, can *functionally perform* as well as America's AH-64 Apache ,and with *better maneuverability* than the latter, making it more suitable for China's air defense, a Party delegate at the ongoing 18th National Congress of the Communist Party of China told China.org.cn in an exclusive interview yesterday in Beijing.
> 
> Lin Zuoming, president of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), said that the WZ-10, which officially conducted low-altitude adaptive flying exercises at its debut at the Zhuhai Airshow one day before, has *no big differences with the AH-64 Apache except for its takeoff weight. The WZ-10's takeoff weight is about six tons, four tons lighter than the AH-64.*
> 
> In spite of lighter takeoff weight or bomb load, the WZ-10 has better maneuverability and, thus is more suitable for protecting China's complicated topography, which *features a lot of hills and mountainous areas*, Lin said. He noted that the WZ-10, nicknamed "Thunderbolt" meets world class standards in every functional aspect.


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## Ottoman_smack

> Same goes, T-129 is untested and new which haven't try experiences to kill PPK or innocent Kurds in conflicts.


T-129 *W&#304;LL NOT* using on* innocent Kurds*.It will using on *Terrorists*.



> Turkey is not reliable partner than China


Do you think China is more reliable then a muslim country?


> When will the T-129 enter service ?


Beginning of 2013


and my brother: Muslim spends on the way of Allah very wholeheartedly.Muslim would never spend in vain,he would not waste but he does not keep it tight either.When the money is spent on Muslim on the way of Islam. Muslim spends it abudantly and never keep it tight.Yet Muslim would never spend money in vain and All Muslims should be together if they want to walk on the way of Allah.

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## VelocuR

Ottoman_smack said:


> T-129 *W&#304;LL NOT* using on* innocent Kurds*.It will using on *Terrorists*.
> 
> 
> Do you think China is more reliable then a muslim country?
> Beginning of 2013
> 
> 
> and my brother: Muslim spends on the way of Allah very wholeheartedly.Muslim would never spend in vain,he would not waste but he does not keep it tight either.When the money is spent on Muslim on the way of Islam. Muslim spends it abudantly and never keep it tight.Yet Muslim would never spend money in vain and All Muslims should be together if they want to walk on the way of Allah.




Yes, you are right we can assist Muslim countries, however Turkey should removed itself from NATO members under US control and AtaTurk must be replaced by Ottoman Empires and its historics. China's relation with Pakistan is deeper closer than Turkey which supported Western foreigners to kill Libyans, Syrians, Iraqis, Kurds, etc. Allah is not pleased with idiots Muslims and bad deeds.

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## Gentelman

Abingdonboy said:


> Maybe this is true of the Indian political establishment but the Indian military is not like the Pakistani military in the sense the Indian military has not political ambitions or say-they are completly subservient to the civilian establishment.
> 
> 
> 
> @topic. Is there a particular reason there is no cinsideration being given to US offereings? The AH-1Z and especially the AH-64E are at the top of their fields. For anyone looking at the T129 are the Super Cobra or Apache not worthy of consideration? Or is this a political move?



well i suppose super cobra and Apache will be 1st consideration of PA....
i don't think US will offer Apache.. 
well if PA is considernig TOT then maybe they willnot consider US products and choose WZ 10 or T 129...
well WZ 10 has more chances than T 129 as T 129 has still to be induced while Wz 10 is induced and ready to export and cheap with greater payload with out any fear of sanctions from Uncle Sam 
otherwise it is a good chance of Super Cobra to replace AH/1Z....


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## cabatli_53

To make some sense, Think more about sanctions. If Pakistan really worries about Western sanctions to be applied for future, Why Pakistani officials have already been pouring billion $ on Western products instead of directly look for equivalents in China ? I am talking about complete products which all intellectual and property rights of the whole design and sub-systems belongs to sole Western countries and USA such as F-16 Block30, Block 50+, Aspide SAM, UAV's, ERIEYE AWACS and more. There are also some future tenders which will be opened for which the institutes from Western countries will participate. If The likely sanctions are so crucial proceeding ahead of system quality, cost-effectivity, competability..etc, Close all tenders, cut all relations with West and just open all sources to China...

About T-129, Current WZ-10 with domestic shaft engine can't be on par with T-129 Atak A/B. With more powerfull domestic engine China is developing, The both attack helicopter would be reached similar hot/high performances but Reliability of copter will remain a big question for WZ-10 which will use a new developed engine under many difficulties and a proven one T-129 uses.

T-129's LHTEC 800A is one of the best engine which is developed for USA famous Commanche helicopter. Many parts of this engine are being manufactured by Turkish institutes in Turkey...

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## cnleio

U have more choice ...

WZ-9







WZ-19











WZ-10

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## cabatli_53

My friend, There are some other solutions like MD-210, Kiowa Warrior..etc the countries may intend indeed, USA Forces operates some which looks like your WZ-9 solution, multi-purpose helicopter to be designed to carry the troops but armed as well but Nothing can replace an attack helicopter which is designed to combat against all type armoured units.

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## cabatli_53

-TAI Atak test pilots qualification cources 
-TAI Atak pilot oriantation cource 
-TAI Atak mechanical maintenance crew cource 
-TAI Atak avionic and weapon system training cources

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## cabatli_53

TAI started design/modification of a new variant of T-129 Atak called B2 to be manufactured in 2016 (Latest 21 T-129 Atak will be manufactured B2 variant). The take-off weight of B2 is planned to be increased between %5-%10 (max. 500kg), While new generation avionic systems/hardwares will be connected(!) to gain aprox. %50 lighter weight of current A version's avionics. Such efforts will make B2 to be able to carry more weapon payload and gained increased range. The Nose section will be re-designed/quite longer than standart A and B1 versions for Meteksan developed MMW radar integration. 


Meteksan MMW radar 







T-129A COIN attack helicopter(10)
T-129B1 Anti-Tank/Air Model (29)
T-129B2 Radar integrated,longer nose, Increased range, bigger payload variant (21)

T-129 Atak-A






After deliveries of the B2 versions finish it is expected that the previous 39 helicopters will be upgraded to B-2 standard.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

cabatli_53 said:


> TAI started design/modification of a new variant of T-129 Atak called B2 to be manufactured in 2016 (Latest 21 T-129 Atak will be manufactured B2 variant). The take-off weight of B2 is planned to be increased between %5-%10 (max. 500kg), While new generation avionic systems/hardwares will be connected(!) to gain aprox. %50 lighter weight of current A version's avionics. Such efforts will make B2 to be able to carry more weapon payload and gained increased range. The Nose section will be re-designed/quite longer than standart A and B1 versions for Meteksan developed MMW radar integration.
> 
> 
> Meteksan MMW radar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-129A COIN attack helicopter(10)
> T-129B1 Anti-Tank/Air Model (29)
> T-129B2 Radar integrated,longer nose, Increased range, bigger payload variant (21)
> 
> T-129 Atak-A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After deliveries of the B2 versions finish it is expected that the previous 39 helicopters will be upgraded to B-2 standard.



any further news or development w.r.t. the negotiations between turkey & PakisTan regarding T-129 chopper as there is a new govt. now in PakisTan ... ??


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## Tajdar adil

well well its a twin engine helli and Pakistan is very scared of twin engine things....


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## Irfan Baloch

Tajdar adil said:


> well well its a twin engine helli and Pakistan is very scared of twin engine things....



our new Government has just negotiated some loans from IMF and if Kafir Americans can convince our Arab brothers to give us some loans then there is a chance to buy them. in the meantime we will have to make do with what we have.

we dont need T-129s to take out TTP , BLA and LeJ but a willingness & clear conscience which is lacking at the moment.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Tajdar adil said:


> well well its a twin engine helli and Pakistan is very scared of twin engine things....



who told you that twin engine aircrafts and helis are more costly to operate


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## Gentelman

cabatli_53 said:


> To make some sense, Think more about sanctions. If Pakistan really worries about Western sanctions to be applied for future, Why Pakistani officials have already been pouring billion $ on Western products instead of directly look for equivalents in China ? I am talking about complete products which all intellectual and property rights of the whole design and sub-systems belongs to sole Western countries and USA such as F-16 Block30, Block 50+, Aspide SAM, UAV's, ERIEYE AWACS and more. There are also some future tenders which will be opened for which the institutes from Western countries will participate. If The likely sanctions are so crucial proceeding ahead of system quality, cost-effectivity, competability..etc, Close all tenders, cut all relations with West and just open all sources to China...
> 
> About T-129, Current WZ-10 with domestic shaft engine can't be on par with T-129 Atak A/B. With more powerfull domestic engine China is developing, The both attack helicopter would be reached similar hot/high performances but Reliability of copter will remain a big question for WZ-10 which will use a new developed engine under many difficulties and a proven one T-129 uses.
> 
> T-129's LHTEC 800A is one of the best engine which is developed for USA famous Commanche helicopter. Many parts of this engine are being manufactured by Turkish institutes in Turkey...



PA had shown its keen intrest in T-129 and only thing that can stop PA from axquiration is king cobra&#8230;&#8230;
yeah if US provide King Cobra as replacement for AH/1Z according to PA needs then this acquirtion can be expanded&#8230;&#8230;
pak requested for Boeing E-3 Sentry but on turning down Erieye was slected and F-16 maintanance facility(and turks help in spares) is stopping PAF from leaving this platform and it is a lame excuse that we are afraid of sanctations especially when we ate talking about trust worthy and hard time tested friends (turks)&#8230;&#8230;
soo we can hope atleast 12 such helos soon(2015-2017)&#8230;&#8230;



Tajdar adil said:


> well well its a twin engine helli and Pakistan is very scared of twin engine things....



ever heard of PA aviation wing??
all attack helos are under its control and PAF don't operates them currentely&#8230;&#8230;
well PA can't afford twin engine helos and US never showed its willingness for providing more capable twin engine jets&#8230;&#8230;
you can expect twin engine King cobra as replacement for AH/1Z if nawaz didnot pissed off US much&#8230;&#8230;


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## Neptune

@Gentleman
Yup, there's a mistake here;

AH-1P/E/F = Cobra

AH-1W = SuperCobra

AH-1Z = Viper (KingCobra)

AH-1Z is the model that's also in the tender. Not in the PA's inventory to be replaced. If you choose AH-1Z, it will replace your Cobras (AH-1P). Honestly, KingCobra (a.k.a AH-1Z Viper) was also offered to us and to be produced in Turkey. But we couldn't reach with Bell. Then we chose Agusta Mangusta A-129. Italy will also upgrade it's fleet with T-129. Anyways, my opinion is choosing AH-64E or T-129 or WZ-10. AH-1Z's engines are also good but it's twin-blade is weak for the envirement of Pakistan.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Some people download the "Trial" Software and use it for 30 days and then download again and use the trial version

We need to tell the military , helicopters don't work that way you ACTUALLY have to buy eventually !!!

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## Tajdar adil

wasm95 said:


> who told you that twin engine aircrafts and helis are more costly to operate



Sir you dont think that twin engine jets and helos are not costly to operate..
come its very simple to understand.


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## Tajdar adil

cabatli_53 said:


> TAI started design/modification of a new variant of T-129 Atak called B2 to be manufactured in 2016 (Latest 21 T-129 Atak will be manufactured B2 variant). The take-off weight of B2 is planned to be increased between %5-%10 (max. 500kg), While new generation avionic systems/hardwares will be connected(!) to gain aprox. %50 lighter weight of current A version's avionics. Such efforts will make B2 to be able to carry more weapon payload and gained increased range. The Nose section will be re-designed/quite longer than standart A and B1 versions for Meteksan developed MMW radar integration.
> 
> 
> Meteksan MMW radar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-129A COIN attack helicopter(10)
> T-129B1 Anti-Tank/Air Model (29)
> T-129B2 Radar integrated,longer nose, Increased range, bigger payload variant (21)
> 
> T-129 Atak-A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After deliveries of the B2 versions finish it is expected that the previous 39 helicopters will be upgraded to B-2 standard.



I think we need all these 3 variants..
Minimum 20 each of them.and we should talk to our Turks brothers for transfer of tecknology.

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## Irfan Baloch

Tajdar adil said:


> I think we need all these 3 variants..
> Minimum 20 each of them.and we should talk to our Turks brothers for transfer of tecknology.



ToT as well? do you know how much it will cost? will it be fair to ask it for free?
really do we have the capacity for it to install and even operate it even if they give up their source or income as a charity?

MINIMUM 20 OF EACH...Hmmm 20 current year calenders of each will be more realistic option haha.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Tajdar adil said:


> I think we need all these 3 variants..
> Minimum 20 each of them.and we should talk to our Turks brothers for transfer of tecknology.



we need 30 or 50 of them not 400


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## madmusti

*Turkish Airwolf *

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

cabatli_53 said:


> To make some sense, Think more about sanctions. If Pakistan really worries about Western sanctions to be applied for future, Why Pakistani officials have already been pouring billion $ on Western products instead of directly look for equivalents in China ? I am talking about complete products which all intellectual and property rights of the whole design and sub-systems belongs to sole Western countries and USA such as F-16 Block30, Block 50+, Aspide SAM, UAV's, ERIEYE AWACS and more. There are also some future tenders which will be opened for which the institutes from Western countries will participate. If The likely sanctions are so crucial proceeding ahead of system quality, cost-effectivity, competability..etc, Close all tenders, cut all relations with West and just open all sources to China...
> 
> About T-129, Current WZ-10 with domestic shaft engine can't be on par with T-129 Atak A/B. With more powerfull domestic engine China is developing, The both attack helicopter would be reached similar hot/high performances but Reliability of copter will remain a big question for WZ-10 which will use a new developed engine under many difficulties and a proven one T-129 uses.
> 
> T-129's LHTEC 800A is one of the best engine which is developed for USA famous Commanche helicopter. Many parts of this engine are being manufactured by Turkish institutes in Turkey...



PakisTan's p.m. nawaz sharif is coming to turkey on official visit so is there any thing being cooked up regarding the t-129 atak deal between the 2 brotherly countries ?


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## revojam

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4758920 said:


> PakisTan's p.m. nawaz sharif is coming to turkey on official visit so is there any thing being cooked up regarding the t-129 atak deal between the 2 brotherly countries ?




Nothing new as far as we know.


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## Edevelop

ANKARA - Pakistan and Turkey are expected to expand their cooperation in defence production and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif will discuss the possibility of joint production of fighter helicopters with his Turkish counterpart Tayyip Erdogan.

Soon after his arrival in Ankara on a three-day official visit to Turkey, Premier Nawaz would undertake a visit to Turkish Aerospace Industries to witness demonstration of T-129 Advance Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters.

If an understanding is reached, an MoU would be signed and later a high-ranking team of Pakistan Air Force comprising experts from Kamra Re-build Factory would undertake a visit to Ankara to look into the technical details involved in joint production of these helicopters.

Pakistan and Turkey are already cooperating in different fields of defence production and training of each others&#8217; military personnel. But, Pakistan desperately needs such helicopters to enhance its capability to carry out operations in Fata region to target terrorist hideouts.

T-129 is the result of the integration of nationally developed avionics and weapon systems by Turkey on to the combat proven Agusta Westland A-129 airframe, with upgraded engines, transmission and rotor blades. This helicopter is designed to meet the demanding requirements of armed forces. Optimised for &#8220;hot & high&#8221; environments and having considerable fire-power, T-129 is the most efficient Attack Helicopter in its class.

T-129 in fact has two versions. T-129A is the &#8220;combat support&#8221; version capable of carrying 500 ea 20mm gun rounds and up to 76 guided or unguided 2.75&#8221; rockets. T-129B is the &#8220;multi-role&#8221; version equipped with the leading edge electronic warfare systems and capable to carry a payload of 8 anti-tank missiles, 12 guided 2.75&#8221; rockets, 2 air-to-air missiles and 500 rounds, simultaneously.

Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards

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## RAMPAGE

Seriously ????????

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## Kompromat

JV seems like blowing the smoke,however we do need these choppers.

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## Gentelman

Well Pakistan Army aviation really needs attack helos and they i guess will also modify it for personnal carrying helos with machine gun&#8230;&#8230;
Well i guess its too early to start guessing first let MOU signed.
but it proves Pakistan serious intrest in helos industry and aquiring helis tech&#8230;&#8230;

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## gangsta_rap

MoU to be signed soon!??!

Yeaaaaaa buddyyyyy!!


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## A1Kaid

Let's wait and see until agreement is signed and development begins...

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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> JV seems like blowing the smoke,however we do need these choppers.



Sir first few meetings of Forces chiefs with Nawaz were quite important Sir we just took them as normal meetings they were for future defense deals because Armed Forces can't wait any more Sir they need weapons Sir that is one of the reason the highest General Wyne went to China


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## tarrar

Would be good for Pak Army if the deal takes place. Pak Army needs good armed helis plus they also need armed drones to reduce the burden off Pak Army. I don't think Turkey is having armed drone but they do have a very good looking Drone TAI.


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## fatman17

there seem to be 2 issues with this report.
1. combat helos are operated by army. there is no mention of army.
2. i can understand why PAF officials would visit turkey as kamra is the only production facility where these helos can be assembled / co-produced.
3. if a deal is made, would a NOC from the US be forthcoming for the engine?

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## Tehmasib



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## Edevelop

We never gave much importance to Attack Helios. But due to geopolitics, where now the warfare tactics are changed to fighting proxies in the form of Militants, these assets are more valuable than anything. Pakistan must try to seek TOT and that someone cannot be U.S or Europeans as with time we have come to conclusion that they have been nothing but more problem for us. They gIve us second hand and on top of that hundreds of conditions. Realistically its China and Turkey who are Pakistan's top allies. Whether its the WZ series or the T-129, they are far better than our existing fleet of AH Cobras

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## MilSpec

AH1Z are better cost effective options, they come almost free of cost out of the US wot fund by the means of Excess Defense Articles Program....

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## fatman17

sandy_3126 said:


> AH1Z are better cost effective options, they come almost free of cost out of the US wot fund by the means of Excess Defense Articles Program....



the AH-1Z does not come under EDA stocks as it is the latest attack helo for the USMC.

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## T-123456

You should either with China,Turkey or both try to build at home just like you did with the JF-17.

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## IceCold

Seeing is believing. Baki sub.....ahh well

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## Amaa'n

hmmmm interesting development.
As mentioned in the article Kamra is the only facility available with capabilities to build an aircraft, so it would make sense why PAF officials are visiting Ankara. Did they misreported here no officials from Army are going along.

If PAF officials are in that really means something don't forget it is Army that maintains the Attack helos, I don't see why else would PAF be there


Aeronaut said:


> JV seems like blowing the smoke,however we do need these choppers.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Noooooooo ....... Don't go for T-129, go for Z-10 you idiots.
T-129 is not even operational !

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## A.Rafay

We should go for T-129B it suits our needs and is a multirole chopper, JV would be a good start for PAC to get expert in combat helos.


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## fatman17

at nearly US60m per unit, this is an expensive proposition. at best PK would be able to buy up to 10-12 units. for this amount at least 20 Z-10's can be purchased.

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> at nearly US60m per unit, this is an expensive proposition. at best PK would be able to buy up to 10-12 units. for this amount at least 20 Z-10's can be purchased.



Sir we are talking about joint productions Sir joint productions would not be only for 10 to 12 Sir that is common sense Sir


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## Neptune

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Noooooooo ....... Don't go for T-129, go for Z-10 you idiots.
> T-129 is not even operational !



Dear "idiot",

Currently at least 8 ATAKs are in active service as of today. I don't say that WZ is bad. But tell me, is there any other opportunity for brother Pakistan to acces combat helis upto nato standarts.

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## Zarvan

Neptune said:


> Dear "idiot",
> 
> Currently at least 8 ATAKs are in active service as of today. I don't say that WZ is bad. But tell me, is there any other opportunity for brother Pakistan to acces combat helis upto nato standarts.



Sir what weapons are fitted into this helicopter I am specially interested in the missiles Anti Tank Missiles


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## naseebkhanniazi

T 129 is in option from long time and z10 is also but in nawaz government they go for T129 because they have business relations with tyab ordogan may be there some kickbacks may be I am wrong let see what happen......

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Sir we are talking about joint productions Sir joint productions would not be only for 10 to 12 Sir that is common sense Sir



the 1st batch would be off-the-shelf. the JV is a long-term deal if it comes thru.

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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Sir what weapons are fitted into this helicopter I am specially interested in the missiles Anti Tank Missiles



it can fire all NATO type's

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## graphican

naseebkhanniazi said:


> T 129 is in option from long time and z10 is also but in nawaz government they go for T129 because they have business relations with tyab ordogan may be there some kickbacks may be I am wrong let see what happen......



I would support purchase from Turkey as Turkish industry has followed an independent growth road. If Pakistan goes for JV, it will benefits from another stream of technology and development. 

Regarding cost, if it is JV, it won't be costing $ 60 millions because of reduced local development cost. 

Regarding Nawaz, he knows know better ways of doing corruption.. He will get business deals which otherwise may not be available and this sort of corruption is even harder to track and safer to defend.


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

revojam said:


> Nothing new as far as we know.



Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards

ANKARA: Pakistan and Turkey are expected to expand their cooperation in defence production and Prime Nawaz Sharif will discuss the possibility of joint production of fighter helicopters with his Turkish counterpart Tayyip Erdogan. 
Soon after his arrival in Ankara on a three-day official visit to Turkey, Premier Nawaz would undertake a visit to Turkish Aerospace Industries to witness demonstration of T-129 Advance Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters. 
If an understanding is reached, an MoU would be signed and later a high-ranking team of Pakistan Air Force comprising experts from Kamra Re-build Factory would undertake a visit to Ankara to look into the technical details involved in joint production of these helicopters. 
Pakistan and Turkey are already cooperating in different fields of defence production and training of each others&#8217; military personnel. But, Pakistan desperately needs such helicopters to enhance its capability to carry out operations in Fata region to target terrorist hideouts. 
T-129 is the result of the integration of nationally developed avionics and weapon systems by Turkey on to the combat proven Agusta Westland A-129 airframe, with upgraded engines, transmission and rotor blades. This helicopter is designed to meet the demanding requirements of armed forces. Optimised for &#8220;hot & high&#8221; environments and having considerable fire-power, T-129 is the most efficient Attack Helicopter in its class. 
T-129 in fact has two versions. T-129A is the &#8220;combat support&#8221; version capable of carrying 500 ea 20mm gun rounds and up to 76 guided or unguided 2.75&#8221; rockets. T-129B is the &#8220;multi-role&#8221; version equipped with the leading edge electronic warfare systems and capable to carry a payload of 8 anti-tank missiles, 12 guided 2.75&#8221; rockets, 2 air-to-air missiles and 500 rounds, simultaneously.
Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards

  LonG-L|||ve Turkey  PakisTan BrOther.HooD ... :pakistan


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## xyxmt

cb4 said:


> ANKARA - Pakistan and Turkey are expected to expand their cooperation in defence production and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif will discuss the possibility of joint production of fighter helicopters with his Turkish counterpart Tayyip Erdogan.
> 
> Soon after his arrival in Ankara on a three-day official visit to Turkey, Premier Nawaz would undertake a visit to Turkish Aerospace Industries to witness demonstration of T-129 Advance Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters.
> 
> If an understanding is reached, an MoU would be signed and later a high-ranking team of Pakistan Air Force comprising experts from Kamra Re-build Factory would undertake a visit to Ankara to look into the technical details involved in joint production of these helicopters.
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey are already cooperating in different fields of defence production and training of each others military personnel. But, Pakistan desperately needs such helicopters to enhance its capability to carry out operations in Fata region to target terrorist hideouts.
> 
> T-129 is the result of the integration of nationally developed avionics and weapon systems by Turkey on to the combat proven Agusta Westland A-129 airframe, with upgraded engines, transmission and rotor blades. This helicopter is designed to meet the demanding requirements of armed forces. Optimised for hot & high environments and having considerable fire-power, T-129 is the most efficient Attack Helicopter in its class.
> 
> T-129 in fact has two versions. T-129A is the combat support version capable of carrying 500 ea 20mm gun rounds and up to 76 guided or unguided 2.75 rockets. T-129B is the multi-role version equipped with the leading edge electronic warfare systems and capable to carry a payload of 8 anti-tank missiles, 12 guided 2.75 rockets, 2 air-to-air missiles and 500 rounds, simultaneously.
> 
> Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards



Imagine a sellout like NS who has sugar factories in India doing this for Pakistan.


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## Gryphon

Defense Cooperation with Turkey should be increased and both versions produced by Pakistan under ToT.. We really need those to deal with the najayiz yahoos called TTP ..

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## HRK

cb4 said:


> ANKARA - Pakistan and Turkey are expected to expand their cooperation in defence production and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif will discuss the possibility of joint production of fighter helicopters with his Turkish counterpart Tayyip Erdogan.
> 
> Soon after his arrival in Ankara on a three-day official visit to Turkey, Premier Nawaz would undertake a visit to Turkish Aerospace Industries to witness demonstration of T-129 Advance Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters.
> 
> If an understanding is reached, an MoU would be signed and later a *high-ranking team of Pakistan Air Force comprising experts* from Kamra Re-build Factory would undertake a visit to Ankara to look into the technical details involved in joint production of these helicopters.
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey are already cooperating in different fields of defence production and training of each others military personnel. But, Pakistan desperately needs such helicopters to enhance its capability to carry out operations in Fata region to target terrorist hideouts.
> 
> T-129 is the result of the integration of nationally developed avionics and weapon systems by Turkey on to the combat proven Agusta Westland A-129 airframe, with upgraded engines, transmission and rotor blades. This helicopter is designed to meet the demanding requirements of armed forces. Optimised for hot & high environments and having considerable fire-power, T-129 is the most efficient Attack Helicopter in its class.
> 
> T-129 in fact has two versions. T-129A is the combat support version capable of carrying 500 ea 20mm gun rounds and up to 76 guided or unguided 2.75 rockets. T-129B is the multi-role version equipped with the leading edge electronic warfare systems and capable to carry a payload of 8 anti-tank missiles, 12 guided 2.75 rockets, 2 air-to-air missiles and 500 rounds, simultaneously.
> 
> Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards



I don't think there is a need to involve PAF in this deal......army aviation would be more appropriate .......... 

anyway a good news.....


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## Gentelman

Super Falcon said:


> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahaahhaahhaha i think allll finger will make some pain in USA



I don't think so
They are strubborn people and i guess can also bear two hands
What about two hands and a leg??
Well i guess this will pressirise US to supply Perry class Frigates to PN as planned in 2014 to keep Pakistan under their miltary influance


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## viper46

well its good but we have to go for chinese z10 , t129 is awesome no doubt, but its western... you see ??? WESTERN.
.
and this is the fact that nawaz sharif has been given script from his fathers in washington, create gaps from china.. and this pigman will obey their masters at all.

T129 is great but we should go for z10... chinese techs are growing faster and they will have intensive upgradation in future like apache block 1,2,3 and above ALL... CHINA IS RELIABLE THEN ANY ONE ELSE ON THIS FU*KING PLANET FOR PAKISTAN...


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## cabatli_53



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## S.Y.A

xyxmt said:


> Imagine a sellout like NS who has sugar factories in India doing this for Pakistan.



when benazir and zardari can buy agostas for navy, noora can also do something similar, it is all a matter of resolve

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## Neptune

Zarvan said:


> Sir what weapons are fitted into this helicopter I am specially interested in the missiles Anti Tank Missiles



AGM-114 Hellfire, UMTAS, Cirit (we have stickies about them at TR section) and all other NATO STANAG designated missiles.

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## cabatli_53

Fuselage assembly







Combat Ready A variant











Cirit semi active lazer guided missiles
L-UMTAS
IIR-UMTAS
Unguided rockets
20mm gun

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## ozi2000

*Its not just attack helicopter Think the technologies surround it as well*





Turkish Longbow-Prototype successfully tested (Mildar1) Now second project underway for fitting into T-129 Meteksan Savunma - MILDAR

*MILDAR (Millimeter Wave Radar)*= Longbow

The MILDAR Project spans key radar technologies in millimeter-wave band. Among these technologies, the main ones are target acquisition, tracking and classification, carried out in a Pulse-Doppler mode. In additon to that, there has been a large amount of work being carried out in various system functionalities such as SAR, ISAR and terrain profiling. Eventually, the System is planned to be employed for various mission goals of attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopters.

The main features of the Ka-band millimeter wave radar are:

High range and azimuth resolution
Multifunctional system:
Surveillance and multi-target tracking
Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) Mode
Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR) Mode
Terrain Profiling Mode
Detection of stationary and moving land & air targets
Target classification







*Umtas 8km anti tank and Omtas 4km anti tank*

Properties of the Product

UMTAS, with its Imaging Infrared Seeker and Laser Seeker options, is an antitank missile, having a range of 8 km and lock on before / after launch and &#8220;fire and forget / fire and update&#8221; properties, used against armored targets, from Air to Ground as well as Ground to Ground.

Basic Properties

Insensitive munitions (Level V)
Tandem warhead effective against reactive armors
Integration to various platforms (helicopter, UAV, land vehicle, stationary platform, light attack aircraft, naval platform)
IIR or Laser Seeker options
Lock on before / after &#8211; launch
Fire and forget / Fire and update properties
RF data link
Smokeless composite solid propellant

Product Description

UMTAS, which was developed by ROKETSAN primary for use from attack helicopters, is an antitank missile system. With its advanced technology it is highly effective against all armored threats in the field. .

UMTAS, with its maximum range of 8 km and minimum range of 500 m is capable of operating all weather conditions and day/night.

UMTAS, which can be used in Fire and Forget and Fire and Update modes, with the flexibility provided by its target update capability, offers to fire behind the mask position, fire against targets hiding behind mask and adjust hit point and damage assesment capability. UMTAS, defined as the official antitank system of the National Attack Helicopter (T &#8211; 129) under development, can be integrated to various platforms (Helicopter, UAV, land Vehicle, Stationary Platform, Light Assault Aircraft, Naval Platform)
Technical Specifications
Diameter 160 mm
Max. rangel 8 km
Min. range 0,5 km
Weight 37,5 kg
Propellant type HTPB-based reduced smoke composite propellant
Warhead type Insensitive tandem warhead effective against armor with reactive protection
Guidance Imager Infrared (IIR) or Laser
Target Types Heavy Armored / Armored Vehicles
Platforms Helicopters (AH &#8211; 1 W, T &#8211; 129 ATAK etc.), UAV&#8217;s, Land Vehicles, Light Attack Aircraft, Naval Platforms and Stationary Platforms

UMTAS | Long Range Anti Tank Missile « Roketsan










*ASELSAN AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System (HICS)* is a personal system solution for attack helicopter pilots. With its ease of use, ergonomic design, symbology and video display capabilities, head tracking functionality, AVCI HICS reduces the pilot workload drammatically during mission. The AVCI HICS consists of four major components the Electronic Unit, the Headgear, the Cockpit modules for head tracking and the Control Panel (optional).

AVCI HICS performs the following functions during mission:

Display video, symbology and night vision to the pilot during the mission in accordance with the pilot&#8217;s choice at day and night conditions.
Generate the head tracking information in accordance with the pilot&#8217;s head movements for the orientation of FLIR, gun or desired equipment on the platform
Personalized headgear for the pilot.
Protect the pilot&#8217;s head and face from impact and penetrating objects






*Cirit Worlds First 2,75&#8243; Laser Guided Missile*

Properties of the Product

C&#304;R&#304;T, is a missile with the longest range in its class which provides a superior precision against light, armored / unarmored and stationary / mobile targets as well as being a cost effective solution.


Basic Specifications

The 2,75&#8243; Missile with the longest Range
Insensitive Munitions (Level V)
Multi purpose (Armor Piercing, Anti Personnel and Incendiary) Warhead
Integration to various platforms (helicopter, UAV, land vehicle, stationary platform, light assault aircraft, naval platform)
Standard Mode and Smart Mode Pod integration
Not a guidance kit, new generation All-Up Round missile system.
Composite propellent technology with reduced smoke
In the inventory of Turkish Armed Forces

Product Description

2,75&#8221; Laser Guided Missile &#8220;C&#304;R&#304;T&#8221; was designed for the purpose of filling the gap between cheap, unguided rockets with low precision and the high cost, guided anti &#8211; tank missiles.

C&#304;R&#304;T can be fired from standard C&#304;R&#304;T POD developed by ROKETSAN and as well as from Smart Pod. Smart Pod increases the capability envelope of C&#304;R&#304;T missile for inventory information exchange through the platform it possess prior to launch.

C&#304;R&#304;T is stored in the canister which facilities loading and unloading.

C&#304;R&#304;T, by means of its aerodynamic shape and composite solid propellant rocket motor, has the longest range in its class, 8 km, as compared to classic 2,75&#8221; unguided rockets.

Moreover, C&#304;R&#304;T missile offers options, such as multi purpose warhead (Armor Piercing Anti-personnel and Incendiary) as well as High Explosive warhead.

C&#304;R&#304;T system defined as the official missile system of National Attack Helicopter (T &#8211; 129) under development and can be also integrated to various platforms (Helicopter, UAV, Land Vehicle, Light Assault Aircraft, Naval platform).

C





And* Tubitak Air-To-Air Missile Family (*Short and Long Range) Under Development

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## AKINCI

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Noooooooo ....... Don't go for T-129, go for Z-10 you idiots.
> T-129 is not even operational !








You should consider Shahed 285 too, it is cheaper than both of them.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Neptune said:


> Dear *"idiot"*,



Dear Mr. *Itel MOD*. Neither that words was for Turkey or for your chopper, So you better watch your language.

@WebMaster, @Awesome, @Oscar What kind of MODS we have here ?


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## cabatli_53



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## Hyperion

Every time, without fail, whenever a dignitary visits any defense production site, we are compelled to bake "feel happy" cakes....

If this logic were true, certain Turkish dignitaries visited some of our nuke fabrication plants, does it mean that we gave them nukes?

Furthermore, Nawaz Sharif is no procurer of any weapon system, the moron rather give away knocked-down laptops, devalue the currency, make fancy roads that go nowhere...

Grow up children..... comment when absolutely necessary......

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## cabatli_53

The biggest cost-effective power of T-129 Atak is Cirit missile. You can't believe your eyes While watching How such a small missile is doing What great things. Cirit is able to destroy moving targets as well...

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## Sugarcane

I think if there is chance of ToT than it's good to acquire new technology, otherwise stick to Chinese tools which comes without any strings attached.

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## Neptune

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Dear Mr. *Itel MOD*. Neither that words was for Turkey or for your chopper, So you better watch your language.
> 
> @WebMaster, @Awesome, @Oscar What kind of MODS we have here ?



didn't you see that ' " ' symbol. Forget my point about it as you didn't get it. If you call your military/defence officials idiots at a public thread in a international forum...I'd doubt about your respect to your country's military/defence as their the skillful personnel about choosing wheter which one, not you or me.


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## Safriz

From wiki



> TAI/AgustaWestland





> A derivative version of the Agusta A129 Mangusta, the T129 is being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), with *AgustaWestland as the primary partner*.



So a western company is in the loop and is the originator of the design and must hold major stakes and decision powers.
Same as JF-17 cannot be sold to just about any country by Pakistan,China's consent is required...

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## wakapdf

This would be a great deal!!! Thank you our Turkish brothers. WE LOVE YOU!!! cheers!!


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## Viking 63

Its high time that PA should go for these attack choppers.. JV is nice but to many components are USA or Nato based...i can many bottlenecks in the future...Chinese versions may be a better option....


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## Kompromat

As much as i want to, i don't think we'll get transfer of technology for this copter.
 @Hyperion

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## Hyperion

He was justified in his remark. Have some respect for our decision makers, I guarantee you that none of them are "idiots". If you do have any valid points to justify the Chinese choppers over the Turkish ones, why not discuss about them - instead of some off the cuff remarks. 



DANGER-ZONE said:


> Dear Mr. *Itel MOD*. Neither that words was for Turkey or for your chopper, So you better watch your language.
> 
> @WebMaster, @Awesome, @Oscar What kind of MODS we have here ?



Trust me we will get the things that matter the most - ASELSAN (HMCS) + UMTAS + OMTAS & CIRIT. Complete package, I'm not sure of. But we surely can and will get other goodies.



Aeronaut said:


> As much as i want to, i don't think we'll get transfer of technology for this copter.
> 
> @Hyperion

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## DANGER-ZONE

Neptune said:


> didn't you see that ' " ' symbol. Forget my point about it as you didn't get it. If you call your military/defence officials idiots at a public thread in a international forum...I'd doubt about your respect to your country's military/defence as their the skillful personnel about choosing wheter which one, not you or me.



LOL ... I would love to ask you the same if your military, having bad economy, poke its nose in a deadliest war like WOT just because of International / US pressure.

and for T-129, you said it right that its the only available chopper at NATO standard that Pakistan can have with TOT but we may not have a choice to use EU / US weapons on it except of Turkish made. No EU / US country will provide their weapons to Pakistan because of Chinese factor and Indian pressure (Since Indians are in Western market for long and they know how to play their CRY BABY card, they even used it France for JFT upgrades and succeeded).
Apart from these two factors third and the most experienced factor of ours is the "STRINGS" that are for sure attached to western weapons and we are still experiencing it with the F-16s. I highly doubt that ATAK is completely made in TAI, some or a few avionics / equipments will be US or EU for sure.
I respect Turk-Pak friendship and mutual cooperation in many fields but this wouldn't be a wise decision because future is China not EU / US. 
Z-10 is much cheaper, seems more lethal, manuvable and can also come with TOT witn no strings attached, what it lacks is NATO standard which for Pakistan is a trashable thing.

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## Hyperion

There is fatal flaw in one of your base assumptions, Turkey matters a way lot more than India to the EU. A way lot more. They may have certain problems with accessions, however, both Turkey and the EU are joined at the hip. Literally.



DANGER-ZONE said:


> LOL ... I would love to ask you the same if your military, having bad economy, poke its nose in a deadliest war like WOT just because of International / US pressure.
> 
> and for T-129, you said it right that its the only available chopper at NATO standard that Pakistan can have with TOT but we may not have a choice to use EU / US weapons on it except of Turkish made. No EU / US country will provide their weapons to Pakistan because of Chinese factor and Indian pressure (Since Indians are in Western market for long and they know how to play their CRY BABY card, they even used it France for JFT upgrades and succeeded).
> Apart from these two factors third and the most experienced factor of ours is the "STRINGS" that are for sure attached to western weapons and we are still experiencing it with the F-16s.
> I respect Turk-Pak friendship and mutual cooperation in many fields but this wouldn't be a wise decision because future is China not EU / US.

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## Safriz

wakapdf said:


> This would be a great deal!!! Thank you our Turkish brothers. WE LOVE YOU!!! cheers!!



There is no such thing as free lunch..
If your "Turkish Brothers" are doing this deal....It will not be for "Love",there will be money involved and technical collaboration and outsourcing of component manufacturing to Pakistan,where it will be cheap..
So its a give and take. There is no Love story in international relations.

Although like i said,the helicopter is by most part property of Agusta Westland which is a British-Italian Company..TAI wont have the final say in TOT because of Patent rights.

The engine is CTS 800 engines that are co-developed by Honeywell and Rolls-Royce..
If anything the engine will come under USA imposed sanctions which they keep slapping at us now and again...

All Helmet mounted Display systems are manufactured by Aselsan which itself has a ToT from Thales and most patents are property of Thales.Which again is an Anglo-American company and sanctions prone

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## DANGER-ZONE

Hyperion said:


> There is fatal flaw in one of your base assumptions, *Turkey matters a way lot more than India to the EU*. A way lot more. They may have certain problems with accessions, however, both Turkey and the EU are joined at the hip. Literally.



Many people here including me were denying the same fact for France at the time of JFT upgrade deal and yet we were slapped by them to make a history. Its not about the EU actually but the US, who can pressurise its ally to do whatever it want. Have you forgotten the Armed Falco - UAV version, that couldn't go through due to US influence. 
China is much safer and reliable compared to any of US - Ally (sorry turk bros but have to say it).

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## Hyperion

Trust me yara, Turkey of today can take the heat. Have some faith. China has it's own issues. Let's not get into them.



DANGER-ZONE said:


> Many people here including me were denying the same fact for France at the time of JFT upgrade deal and yet we were slapped by them to make a history. Its not about the EU actually but the US, who can pressurise its ally to do whatever it want. Have you forgotten the Armed Falco - UAV version, that couldn't go through due to US influence.
> China is much safer and reliable compared to any of US - Ally (sorry turk bros but have to say it).

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## Safriz

The only thing that can be ToT to pakistan is the ASELFLIR-300T which is a genuine ASELSAN Product.


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## Amaa'n

HRK said:


> I don't think there is a need to involve PAF in this deal......army aviation would be more appropriate ..........
> 
> anyway a good news.....



You missed the point, those officials were from PAC kamra, so we are looking the possibility of JV, and kamra has the capability, i dont think of any Army run factory with said capabilities.

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## Safriz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Many people here including me were denying the same fact for France at the time of JFT upgrade deal and yet we were slapped by them to make a history. Its not about the EU actually but the US, who can pressurise its ally to do whatever it want. Have you forgotten the Armed Falco - UAV version, that couldn't go through due to US influence.
> China is much safer and reliable compared to any of US - Ally (sorry turk bros but have to say it).



true...
the engine and avionics will come under sanctions for us...being western products.

A helicopter with no supply of engine spares is as good as dead.....

None of us can ever forget the F-16 chapter of 90s when PAF had to resort to scavenging and Black market for F-16 spares....



balixd said:


> You missed the point, those officials were from PAC kamra, so we are looking the possibility of JV, and kamra has the capability, i dont think of any Army run factory with said capabilities.




Hmmm.
good point..
then i guess we will see some component manufacturing outsourced to PAC Kamra....
they are already manufacturing electrical (not electronics) components for the TAI's UAV.

I wrangle a fiver we will see PAC Kamra manufacturing ASELFLIR-300T or other optronics pretty soon...

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## VelocuR

I think, since many cooperations with China, there is nothing wrong to have T-129 project with Turkey. Let we both share the mutual cooperations. 

Spares parts and maintenance are definitely cost.


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## nomi007

T-129 is good but joint production is not possible because
i think chinese z-10 is better than T-129
in terms of technology transfer 
and z-10 is also cheaper than any other
as all of us know that our economical condition is poor
so china is best option they can also provide soft loans and aid


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## Kompromat

T-129 is based on A-129 which is a time tested machine. Its now operational with the Turkish Army.

I dont have high hopes in regards to TOT, however overall its a deal worth persuing.

AFAIC. T-129>Z-10.


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## Amaa'n

Dreamreaper said:


> true...
> the engine and avionics will come under sanctions for us...being western products.
> 
> Hmmm.
> good point..
> then i guess we will see some component manufacturing outsourced to PAC Kamra....
> they are already manufacturing electrical (not electronics) components for the TAI's UAV.
> 
> I wrangle a fiver we will see PAC Kamra manufacturing ASELFLIR-300T or other optronics pretty soon...



I will try to get more info on it, but i will have to travel to kamra for that and than go through the lengthy security procedure.

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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> T-129 is based on A-129 which is a time tested machine. Its now operational with the Turkish Army.
> 
> I dont have high hopes in regards to TOT, however overall its a deal worth persuing.
> 
> AFAIC. T-129>Z-10.


And I think we would get them with TOT and soon more defence equipment from china and turkey would also come

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## Bilal.

T-129 is a great chopper but the upcoming WZ10A will be a class apart. WZ-16 engine will be 1500 kw, equal in power to AH-64E, it will have MMW radar and other upgrades. Plus, since nearly all components are made in China there won't be any complications, pricing will be very good, soft financing would be available and greater percentage of ToT would be possible.

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## Armstrong

T-123456 said:


> You should either with China,Turkey or both try to build at home just like you did with the JF-17.



You'd better send *Hazal Kaya* & *Berat Saat* with the Helos !  

Ain't that right @Neptune ?

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## Safriz

Armstrong said:


> You'd better send *Hazal Kaya* & *Berat Saat* with the Helos !
> 
> Ain't that right @Neptune ?



Buy a blow up doll mate.
You sound desperate.....

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## RAMPAGE

Dreamreaper said:


> The only thing that can be ToT to pakistan is the ASELFLIR-300T which is a genuine ASELSAN Product.


yaara we are producing our own flir, aren't we ???


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## Safriz

RAMPAGE said:


> yaara we are producing our own flir, aren't we ???



We are for UAVs...
This one is comparable to Apache's optronics....defo much advanced.


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## Edevelop




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## T-123456

Armstrong said:


> You'd better send *Hazal Kaya* & *Berat Saat* with the Helos !
> 
> Ain't that right @Neptune ?


Done!
Happy now?

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## Thorough Pro

Zardari didn't bought any equipment for Pakistan Defence forces because he was corrupt, NS is buying equipment for PDF because he is corrupt................. Jo karay wo bhi bura, jo na karay who bhi bura............let us all pray to ALLAH to send some angels to sign these deals to satisfy PDF intellectuals



graphican said:


> I would support purchase from Turkey as Turkish industry has followed an independent growth road. If Pakistan goes for JV, it will benefits from another stream of technology and development.
> 
> Regarding cost, if it is JV, it won't be costing $ 60 millions because of reduced local development cost.
> 
> Regarding Nawaz, he knows know better ways of doing corruption.. He will get business deals which otherwise may not be available and this sort of corruption is even harder to track and safer to defend.


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## Kompromat

I heard, that the Turks have called off a performance demo for Nawaz Sharif and his team. Can anyone confirm!?


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## RAMPAGE

Thorough Pro said:


> Zardari didn't bought any equipment for Pakistan Defence forces because he was corrupt, NS is buying equipment for *PDF* because he is corrupt................. Jo karay wo bhi bura, jo na karay who bhi bura............let us all pray to ALLAH to send some angels to sign these deals to satisfy PDF intellectuals


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## Thorough Pro

Pakistan Defence Forces 



RAMPAGE said:


>

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## RAMPAGE

Thorough Pro said:


> Pakistan Defence Forces


There's no such thing. 

Did you just make that up ???


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## Gentelman

Dreamreaper said:


> We are for UAVs...
> This one is comparable to Apache's optronics....defo much advanced.



what about Mildram radar and mission computer with avionics and HUD??
They all are turkish and HMD is also turkish locally produced
Many T-129 systems like friend/for detection,ice detection and emergency position locator transmittor also are turkish
Turkey also has rights to TOT airframe
yeah engine is US made in turkey under lisence and i also guess Pakistan wouldnot be intrested in radar TOT of a heli


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## eagleeye

Yeah all avionics inclusive the missione computer is turkish made from aselsan main weapons as well. Tei is producing the engine under license. 
I can not understand where some members got the price 60 m per unit. i have never heared about it from official side.

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## mughaljee

Brothers, 
why are are not going to WZ10A ? 
is it not equal to T-129 ?


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## Gentelman

mughaljee said:


> Brothers,
> why are are not going to WZ10A ?
> is it not equal to T-129 ?



no WZ-10 is still much im-mature platform in term of almost every thing&#8230;
Its engine needs imfrovement,avionics and mission computer and HMD are less effective its weapons are not so much lethal and its Electronic counter measure capabilities can't match T-129 and it dont have many systems like ice detector and location locator yransmittor in case of heli crash etc&#8230;&#8230;
T-129 is truely potent and is comparable to Apache of US&#8230;&#8230;

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## ANG

Hi, one has to be realistic in this situation. Pakistan could have bought the A-129 Mangusta from Italy or the Roivalk from South Africa, if they had the funds. Moreover, they could have bought the Tiger from France, but again, if they had the funds. Pakistan simply does not have the funds to finance such a large capital expenditure, that is the sad reality. 

I personally had hoped they bought the Roivalk a while back. It is a much heavier attack helicopter optimized for an extremely harsh and rugged environment. Pakistan squandered a golden chance a while back. South Africa has good defense relations with Pakistan, and is still desperate to sell that helicopter, as their production line is frozen at home.


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## graphican

Thorough Pro said:


> Zardari didn't bought any equipment for Pakistan Defence forces because he was corrupt, NS is buying equipment for PDF because he is corrupt................. Jo karay wo bhi bura, jo na karay who bhi bura............let us all pray to ALLAH to send some angels to sign these deals to satisfy PDF intellectuals



just a food for thought.. in 1990s.. nawaz "empire" grew 1600% during his own era of governance. Nawaz did and will do corporate corruption and you may not need to hurt your forehead for his wrongdoings

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## Bilal.

mughaljee said:


> Brothers,
> why are are not going to WZ10A ?
> is it not equal to T-129 ?



WZ10A is going to be an upgrade of current WZ10 with new wz-16 turboshaft, mmw radar and other things. It will be better than T-129.


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## HAIDER

They don t even have production line yet. Helo still in testing phase and not fully inducted in Turkish forces. It will take many years . Plus Italy also partner in this project. 
Engine for this helicopter :LHTEC T800 :The Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company T800 is a turboshaft engine for rotary wing applications. It is produced by the LHTEC, a joint venture between Rolls-Royce and Honeywell. The commercial and export version is the CTS800. The engine was primarily developed for the United States Army's RAH-66 Comanche armed reconnaissance helicopter, but has found use in other applications.


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## dragonpk

that would be good for both countries


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## unknown786

Aoa! As Pakistani citizen I want to share information about some serious matter. 3 months before Osama operation in abbottabad I noticed a satellite with huge glow and noticeable size difference as compared to stars which was seen constantly over that area and disappeared after that .
Here something I would like to share many people may disagree , same size satellite is now once again but on different place , the place which I want to hide and think important place for our pak army and intelligence. 
My purpose is just to alert our intelligence if some one could hear n read me! I know they can trace me if they want. Sharing pic also of satellite
Serious alert!!! Just love my country


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## Sugarcane

unknown786 said:


> Aoa! As Pakistani citizen I want to share information about some serious matter. 3 months before Osama operation in abbottabad I noticed a satellite with huge glow and noticeable size difference as compared to stars which was seen constantly over that area and disappeared after that .
> Here something I would like to share many people may disagree , same size satellite is now once again but on different place , the place which I want to hide and think important place for our pak army and intelligence.
> My purpose is just to alert our intelligence if some one could hear n read me! I know they can trace me if they want. Sharing pic also of satellite
> Serious alert!!! Just love my country



Where is Pic???


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## unknown786

I uploaded in gallery section 

Search key word 

Spy


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## Sugarcane

unknown786 said:


> I uploaded in gallery section
> 
> Search key word
> 
> Spy



That will take time to be approved for display, upload somewhere else and post link here


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## T-123456

HAIDER said:


> They don t even have production line yet. Helo still in testing phase and not fully inducted in Turkish forces. It will take many years . Plus Italy also partner in this project.
> Engine for this helicopter :LHTEC T800 :The Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company T800 is a turboshaft engine for rotary wing applications. It is produced by the LHTEC, a joint venture between Rolls-Royce and Honeywell. The commercial and export version is the CTS800. The engine was primarily developed for the United States Army's RAH-66 Comanche armed reconnaissance helicopter, but has found use in other applications.


You should look at pot 34 and 35 first,then talk about a production line.


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## HAIDER

The T129 multirole attack helicopter is being developed jointly by AgustaWestland and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLF) under the attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopter (ATAK) programme. The helicopter is based on the AW129 and its predecessor the A129 Mangusta.
In March 2007, the Turkish Armed Forces placed a $3bn contract with AgustaWestland for 51, plus 41 optional, A129 Mangusta helicopters to be assembled as the T-129 by TAI, the prime contractor for the ATAK programme.
"The helicopter is based on the AW129 and its predecessor the A129 Mangusta."
Aselsan supplies avionics and mission equipment, while AgustaWestland acts as a subcontractor to TAI. The helicopters will be delivered to Turkey in two different configurations: TUC-1 and TUC-2.


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## unknown786

Plz view now 
It's visible in my gallery now
Spy

Camera can't capture the real difference but it can be seen


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## Safriz

unknown786 said:


> Aoa! As Pakistani citizen I want to share information about some serious matter. 3 months before Osama operation in abbottabad I noticed a satellite with huge glow and noticeable size difference as compared to stars which was seen constantly over that area and disappeared after that .
> Here something I would like to share many people may disagree , same size satellite is now once again but on different place , the place which I want to hide and think important place for our pak army and intelligence.
> My purpose is just to alert our intelligence if some one could hear n read me! I know they can trace me if they want. Sharing pic also of satellite
> Serious alert!!! Just love my country



You need to read this page...Try to assess the orbit of the satellite and see if you can find a match in their database.
HobbySpace - Satellite Watching

Its unusual for satellites to change orbit so frequently due to limited amount of Rocket fuel onboard. You must be seeing the same or different satellite.
It will help if you can arrange a pair of Binoculars and look at it's shape and then compare it with the database of some Amature satellite spotters website..there are many out there...


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## Sugarcane

unknown786 said:


> Plz view now
> It's visible in my gallery now
> Spy
> 
> Camera can't capture the real difference but it can be seen



Image is pending for approval, however from thumbnail i can guess it's star. Take Chill Pill dude


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## A.Rafay

Aeronaut said:


> I heard, that the Turks have called off a performance demo for Nawaz Sharif and his team. Can anyone confirm!?



Yes, it was stated in yesterdays news that he will visit TAI and they will show him the demonstration .


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## Zarvan

A.Rafay said:


> Yes, it was stated in yesterdays news that he will visit TAI and they will show him the demonstration .



Guys they signed some MOUs did it include helicopter one


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## cabatli_53

Dreamreaper said:


> We are for UAVs...
> This one is comparable to Apache's optronics....defo much advanced.



New 3th generation 235 variant of Aselsan FLIR are also developed. It offers much capable technologies thanks to QWIP IR detector on almost 1/2 weight of AselFlir300. 235 will replace 300 variant on ANKA MALE UAV B variant.

http://www.aselsan.com/magmain/pdf/en/ASELFLIR_235_eng.pdf

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## rdxsumo

Finally! a much desired and needed gunship dream to be fullfilled.


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## HAIDER

LoveIcon said:


> Image is pending for approval, however from thumbnail i can guess it's star. Take Chill Pill dude


Seem dude has just finish the bottle and bottom up ...i remember in college days, after few cigs of charass my fiends use to see the whole galaxy...

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## Dazzler

turkish will shut all deals on a single Yanki nod, something China has never done nor will do perhaps, not a wise idea to go for over expensive toys. WZ-10 better



Zarvan said:


> Guys they signed some MOUs did it include helicopter one



MOUs yes, for new branches of Ittefaq industries to be inaugurated in Turkey, sugar, flour mill, steel mill to name a few

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I see a chopper in there some where burried can anyone see it


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## Thorough Pro

You saw it with your naked eyes, or are you some kind of star gazer? Did you took any pics? Why wake up now?

btw satellites don't need to be moved to monitor an area, US has thousands of satellites circling the globe at all times with a minimum of 6 passes per satellite over any are every twenty four hours.



unknown786 said:


> Aoa! As Pakistani citizen I want to share information about some serious matter. 3 months before Osama operation in abbottabad I noticed a satellite with huge glow and noticeable size difference as compared to stars which was seen constantly over that area and disappeared after that .
> Here something I would like to share many people may disagree , same size satellite is now once again but on different place , the place which I want to hide and think important place for our pak army and intelligence.
> My purpose is just to alert our intelligence if some one could hear n read me! I know they can trace me if they want. Sharing pic also of satellite
> Serious alert!!! Just love my country


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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> turkish will shut all deals on a single Yanki nod, something China has never done nor will do perhaps, not a wise idea to go for over expensive toys. WZ-10 better


I agree about the hight price tag and that yankees will be big hinderance as they own the patents.
But we dont know the exact terms of contract of TOT between yanks and the Turks.

Same as French Agosta - 90B is fully liscenced to Pakistan,and Pakistan can build and sell them....
But the catch is the AIP will come from France and that will be sent only if France approves of the country Pakistan wants to sell the Submarine to. 

Turks may be in a sumilar situation..

On a side note...never under estimate Erdogan and his party,they know how to tell the yanks to jogg off

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## Dazzler

Dreamreaper said:


> I agree about the hight price tag and that yankees will be big hinderance as they own the patents.
> But we dont know the exact terms of contract of TOT between yanks and the Turks.
> 
> Same as French Agosta - 90B is fully liscenced to Pakistan,and Pakistan can build and sell them....
> But the catch is the AIP will come from France and that will be sent only if France approves of the country Pakistan wants to sell the Submarine to.
> 
> Turks may be in a sumilar situation..
> 
> On a side note...never under estimate Erdogan and his party,they know how to tell the yanks to jogg off



Israel maybe, yankees, not a chance, nato alliance in jeopardy, plenty of goodies yet to come from that umbrella erdogan might favor to taklaas but not to pakistan.

Sidenote: there is no hinderence on aips from french, they r a part of tot deal, our navy never asked them to deliver more, they just complied. Most complex material was hull steel that navy make on their own now.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Dazzler said:


> *turkish will shut all deals on a single Yanki nod, *something China has never done nor will do perhaps, not a wise idea to go for over expensive toys. WZ-10 better



Exactly my point sir, couldn't agree more. 
Apart from chinese reliability, WZ-10 looks more beautiful & lethal than T-129 and have a wide range of weapons.

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## RAMPAGE

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Exactly my point sir, couldn't agree more.
> Apart from chinese reliability, WZ-10 looks more beautiful & lethal than T-129 and have a wide range of weapons.


Not to mention that we'll have easy access to future chinese upgrades and weapons and we can also upgrade it with local avionics and armaments.

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## RAMPAGE

Dreamreaper said:


> On a side note...never under estimate Erdogan and his party,they know how to tell the yanks to jogg off


but Erdogan won't be there forever !!!


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## Liquidmetal

Its really hard, to choose one over the other. Both are lovely piece of engineering and offer similar kill capability. 

The recent close up pix of the Z-19 and Z-10 show remarkable engineering. It is clear that each piece, each element, each panels, wings, weapons etc were designed to fit like a glove and the gleaming, built like a merecedes machines hint at the capability inside.

The only question marks, which I think the chinese have dispelled is how reliable are the engines and the overall structure, how much technology it has and what weapon loads and other inventory it can use. The platorms are not mature but are getting there very quickly.

The T-129 offers many things, it comes from the Augusta-Westland stable - and their ponies are world class, extremely reliable and tough. You can rely on them. However, there is a cost disadvantage, 1 T-129 may equal 2 Z-10s, and numbers do matter, the technology will be world class, including the radars, FLIRS and other detection systems. The safety of the crew is paramount so the system will be designed to be reliable but in case of a failure the ****-pit offers are very robust shell to survive a hard landing. Yet due to globalisation this gunship relies on parts from different countries, countries that can veto either the sale or veto their parts in the future.

Hence it is a tough choice, I love what teh Turks have produced and want to diversify my suppliers but the Z-10 is also a great option, either one is still a winning choice for the PAA.


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## Zarvan

@Aeronaut Nawai Waqat has mentioned today that Turkey would give helicopters


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## Black Eagle 90

I am with JV with Chinese on different types of transport and attack choppers through PAC...

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## Black Eagle 90

Really its the mistake of PA that they didn't acquire the AH-1 from Jordan and other Muslim countries in 2002 which many were willing to sell and also to contract US or EU to supply avionics to be fitted at PAC. Then I am sure PA would have about 77-100 AH-1s that can be easily deployed.

Also Army should then again put a request for 300 Transport and Attack 160+ choppers as future needs in front of PAC; which can easily help them to go for a JV with China...(Russian help too  )


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## DANGER-ZONE

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Really its the mistake of PA that they didn't acquire the AH-1 from Jordan and other Muslim countries in 2002 which many were willing to sell and also to contract US or EU to supply avionics to be fitted at PAC. *Then I am sure PA would have about 77-100 AH-1s* that can be easily deployed.
> 
> *Also Army should then again put a request for 300 Transport and Attack 160+* choppers as future needs in front of PAC; which can easily help them to go for a JV with China...(Russian help too  )



Bus aik yehi to kasar reh gaye the is thread main ...

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## Kompromat

RAMPAGE said:


> but Erdogan won't be there forever !!!



You need to know, WHAT keeps Erdogan in power. Its a structure of politically active civil and public servants. All the way down from a garbage collector to the high ranking officials. They form the backbone of the ideology Erdogan represents. They used to collect garbage on the streets of Istanbul 30 years ago, today they run the nation. Those who know Turkey, know what i am talking about.



Zarvan said:


> @Aeronaut Nawai Waqat has mentioned today that Turkey would give helicopters



Too early for me to say anything for sure brother.

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## AKINCI

Pakistan President has taken information about T-129.

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## Dazzler

AKINCI said:


> Pakistan President has taken information about T-129.



must be asing for kickbacks, mujhe kitna mile ga?

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## VelocuR

Dazzler said:


> must be asing for kickbacks, mujhe kitna mile ga?



We need helicopters to sort out the terrorists.

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## Dazzler

RaptorRX707 said:


> We need helicopters to sort out the terrorists.



yes we do, but not with "strings"

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## ELTurco



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## Stealth

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Really its the mistake of PA that they didn't acquire the AH-1 from Jordan and other Muslim countries in 2002 which many were willing to sell and also to contract US or EU to supply avionics to be fitted at PAC. Then I am sure PA would have about 77-100 AH-1s that can be easily deployed.
> 
> Also Army should then again put a request for 300 Transport and Attack 160+ choppers as future needs in front of PAC; which can easily help them to go for a JV with China...(Russian help too  )



teri batain sun kar imaan say khana khanay ko dil nahe karta ..... asi post kya kar imaan say banda hawa may rahta hey har time

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## ELTurco



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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> there seem to be 2 issues with this report.
> 1. combat helos are operated by army. there is no mention of army.
> 2. i can understand why PAF officials would visit turkey as kamra is the only production facility where these helos can be assembled / co-produced.
> 3. if a deal is made, would a NOC from the US be forthcoming for the engine?


Halos are the best assets for War on Terror and both Pakistan and US recognize it. I guess if US has reservations on selling US based tech, engines would be least of the risky ones.


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## VelocuR

Dazzler said:


> yes we do, but not with "strings"



Pakistan is considering to purchase more F-16 Block 52 strings.


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## SBD-3

RaptorRX707 said:


> Pakistan is considering to purchase more F-16 Block 52 strings.


Not just the Block 52 but any used F-16s available in the market. ACM himself said that he is looking to boost Falcon fleet beyond 100.

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## Rafi

NS and RTE are very keen to make this deal the "cornerstone" of the Pak-Turk Strategic Partnership, the Turks are willing to give certain cast iron guarantees regarding the future technical and spare part support, that our side are wanting. 

This deal would not preclude the rejection of the Z-10 which can also be purchased as part of the diversification of our assets as in the AWAC deal. 

Negotiations have gone quite far, with the technical requirements of the PA and PAF Kamra officials (maintenance and possible assembly) taking part. 

The Turks have even given our experienced Cobra pilots presentation and test flight. 

The Turks are also willing to give finance on the deal.

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## Liquidmetal

Rafi said:


> NS and RTE are very keen to make this deal the "cornerstone" of the Pak-Turk Strategic Partnership, the Turks are willing to give certain caste iron guarantees regarding the future technical and spare part support, that our side are wanting.
> 
> This deal would not preclude the rejection of the Z-10 which can also be purchased as part of the diversification of our assets as in the AWAC deal.
> 
> Negotiations have gone quite far, with the technical requirements of the PA and PAF Kamra officials (maintenance and possible assembly) taking part.
> 
> The Turks have even given our experienced Cobra pilots presentation and test flight.
> 
> The Turks are also willing to give finance on the deal.



That would be brilliant! Both the T-129 and Z-10 in our armoury, both lovely helicopters. Then use them against the inhuman TTP and give them a one way ticket to hell.

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## Echo_419

Liquidmetal said:


> That would be brilliant! Both the T-129 and Z-10 in our armoury, both lovely helicopters. Then use them against the inhuman TTP and give them a one way ticket to hell.



Pakistan Must acquire these Platforms ASAP 
Only a dead terrorist is a good one


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## Zarvan

@Aeronaut he was shown the helicopter and shown flying

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## Last Hope

Like I said, the deal isn't dead (due to induction of Fennecs).







_"Primer Minister Pakistan along with delegation of PAC Kamra visited Turkish Aerospace Industries to witness demonstration of T-129 Advance Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters. T-129 has two versions. T-129A is the combat support version capable of carrying 500 ea 20mm gun rounds and up to 76 guided or unguided 2.75 rockets. T-129B is the multi-role version equipped with the leading edge electronic warfare systems and capable to carry a payload of 8 anti-tank missiles, 12 guided 2.75 rockets, 2 air-to-air missiles and 500 rounds"_

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## Stealth

Pakistan Military should consider this machine rather thn T129... em love with this muaaaaaaaaaaaah












*************** Deadlyyyyyyyyyyy!

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## Dazzler

Several countries cancel arms' deals with Pakistan over US pressure | The News Tribe

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## Neptune

Dazzler said:


> Several countries cancel arms' deals with Pakistan over US pressure | The News Tribe



Mann that sucks...and that came from KSA, double sucks. I hope we don't do the same

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## ssethii

Neptune said:


> Mann that sucks...and that came from KSA, double sucks. I *hope *we don't do the same



Why we still have to act like slaves when we are not.


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## VelocuR

Dazzler said:


> Several countries cancel arms' deals with Pakistan over US pressure | The News Tribe



Just one paragraphy, it doesn't explain full reasons. It look to me Blog, probably copy and paste old news.

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## Rocky rock

Well is there any deal signed or finalize btw PAK-Turk on this PM tour or not yet??


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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> Several countries cancel arms' deals with Pakistan over US pressure | The News Tribe



It's amusing, you don't know reason why Saudia arabia didn't purchased Al Khalid MBT? because they were offered much better american tank and upgradation of their old tanks.


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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> It's amusing, you don't know reason why Saudia arabia didn't purchased Al Khalid MBT? because they were offered much better american tank and upgradation of their old tanks.



childish as usual, news just aired on all channels. Could be a reaction from Yanks by NS visit to Turkey and posing in front of ATAK

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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> childish as usual, news just aired on all channels. Could be a reaction from Yanks by NS visit to Turkey and posing in front of ATAK



What's childish in it? This Al Khalid Offer was on the table 6-7 years ago. I remember vividly, it was JDW which carried this deal news and Al Khalid scoring 100 percent hits on moving targets and after a month, Saudi announced they are buying Abraham tanks.!


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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> What's childish in it? This Al Khalid Offer was on the table 6-7 years ago. I remember vividly, it was JDW which carried this deal news and Al Khalid scoring 100 percent hits on moving targets and after a month, Saudi announced they are buying Abraham tanks.!



READ THE NEWS BESIDES AL KHALID


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## AKINCI

mafiya said:


> What's childish in it? This Al Khalid Offer was on the table 6-7 years ago. I remember vividly, it was JDW which carried this deal news and Al Khalid scoring 100 percent hits on moving targets and after a month, Saudi announced they are buying Abraham tanks.!



Except Qatar Gulf countries especially Saudis backed coup in Egypt and sold us too. They give their reserves add to that purchase arms from USA than calls USA to save their azz like did in first Gulf War against Saddam..


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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> READ THE NEWS BESIDES AL KHALID




Trash news to begin with. It was money problems that are holding us back for big ticket purchases. Not US pressure.


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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Several countries cancel arms' deals with Pakistan over US pressure | The News Tribe



All Khalid never took place so no question off cancelling it @Neptune


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## Kompromat



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## Zarvan

@Aeronaut can missiles be placed only on one side off this helicopter or both


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## Kompromat

Zarvan said:


> @Aeronaut can missiles be placed only on one side off this helicopter or both



Yes both, air to ground & air to air.

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## Jango

Oh man, this really looks something concrete. At first I thought it was just a bit of hogwash but now the visits by PM and the PAF team shows that something might happen.

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## fatman17

PK officials have visited Russia to check-out the Ka-28 and France to check-out the LeTigre armed helos and nothing happened. Turkey is flogging this a/c so that it can reduce its own costs by getting export orders. PK just dosnt have the financial wherewithall to buy this helo.

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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> PK officials have visited Russia to check-out the Ka-28 and France to check-out the LeTigre armed helos and nothing happened. Turkey is flogging this a/c so that it can reduce its own costs by getting export orders. PK just dosnt have the financial wherewithall to buy this helo.


so you don't think we're getting them ???


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## nomi007

latest pictures shows that Pakistan is seriously interested in this beast


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> PK officials have visited Russia to check-out the Ka-28 and France to check-out the LeTigre armed helos and nothing happened. Turkey is flogging this a/c so that it can reduce its own costs by getting export orders. PK just dosnt have the financial wherewithall to buy this helo.



Sir nawaz went their to get helicopter and we are going to get them and money would be arranged for this and deals which would be made with china in near future


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## cabatli_53



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## cabatli_53



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## farhan_9909

Well i think a much better choice than this would be to enter into the turkey program of light utility helicopter

which is similar to the indian dhruv.

We should fund the project together.And should develop it within a time frame of 8 years or till 2020.

yes we should directly import the atak 129 aswell

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## Zarvan

@cabatli_53 was mou for this helicopter also signed or not


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> @cabatli_53 was mou for this helicopter also signed or not




Unfortunately, I don't know...


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## Gessler

Have negotiations begun with Italy & US/UK as well? Because Turkey alone cannot call the
shots on this chopper.


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## Rafi

Gessler said:


> Have negotiations begun with Italy & US/UK as well? Because Turkey alone cannot call the
> shots on this chopper.



They have the full licence to sell on, it was part of the agreement.

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## Gessler

Rafi said:


> They have the full licence to sell on, it was part of the agreement.



The license they have is only for to assemble just enough engines for
their own fleet of T-129 and a number of reserves. The original contract
does not include export to 3rd parties, or does it? Please inform me if
so.

From what I think, if Pakistan is buying T-129, then you also need to buy
the US engines, and Turkey is not allowed to build and export as many engines
as it likes and to whomever it likes. Because if it does, it will be a huge blow
to Honeywell and Rolls-Royce's business, the US government will never allow 
something like that.

Turkey will be granted license to build additional engines for Pakistan export
only if US renews their license, and this cannot happen without the US/UK/Italy
conducting a series of interactions with the end-user of the product, in this
case, Pakistan.

That's what I'm asking, have negotiations begun with US/UK/Italy as yet?


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## Tameem

Gessler said:


> The license they have is only for to assemble just enough engines for
> their own fleet of T-129 and a number of reserves. The original contract
> does not include export to 3rd parties, or does it? Please inform me if
> so.
> 
> From what I think, if Pakistan is buying T-129, then you also need to buy
> the US engines, and Turkey is not allowed to build and export as many engines
> as it likes and to whomever it likes. Because if it does, it will be a huge blow
> to Honeywell and Rolls-Royce's business, the US government will never allow
> something like that.
> 
> Turkey will be granted license to build additional engines for Pakistan export
> only if US renews their license, and this cannot happen without the US/UK/Italy
> conducting a series of interactions with the end-user of the product, in this
> case, Pakistan.
> 
> *That's what I'm asking, have negotiations begun with US/UK/Italy as yet?*



Chhoree talay Saaaans tu lai-lu......tumhain Kya jaldi hai...


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## eagleeye

Gessler said:


> The license they have is only for to assemble just enough engines for
> their own fleet of T-129 and a number of reserves. The original contract
> does not include export to 3rd parties, or does it? Please inform me if
> so.
> 
> From what I think, if Pakistan is buying T-129, then you also need to buy
> the US engines, and Turkey is not allowed to build and export as many engines
> as it likes and to whomever it likes. Because if it does, it will be a huge blow
> to Honeywell and Rolls-Royce's business, the US government will never allow
> something like that.
> 
> Turkey will be granted license to build additional engines for Pakistan export
> only if US renews their license, and this cannot happen without the US/UK/Italy
> conducting a series of interactions with the end-user of the product, in this
> case, Pakistan.
> 
> That's what I'm asking, have negotiations begun with US/UK/Italy as yet?




Read the first post


Turkish Aerospace Industries is the T129&#8242;s prime contractor. Aselsan and AgustaWestland will be the subcontractors, under a collaboration agreement in which TAI shares ownership of intellectual property rights for the new A129 configuration with AgustaWestland. TAI will also become the sole source for the production of the whole fuselage, including final assembly and flight operations, and will be responsible for marketing the &#8220;T-129 attack helicopters&#8221; to the world.



Turkey Finally Lands Its Attack Helicopters


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## Gessler

eagleeye said:


> Read the first post
> 
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries is the T129&#8242;s prime contractor. Aselsan and AgustaWestland will be the subcontractors, under a collaboration agreement in which TAI shares ownership of intellectual property rights for the new A129 configuration with AgustaWestland. TAI will also become the sole source for the production of the whole fuselage, including final assembly and flight operations, and will be responsible for marketing the &#8220;T-129 attack helicopters&#8221; to the world.
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey Finally Lands Its Attack Helicopters



Sir I know that T-129 is produced in Turkey, I know that fuselage, airframe, rotor 
blades etc. are all built in Turkey. But there are certain sophisticated equipment 
who's IPRs are never shared, such as engines and flight-control software.

What this means is that eventhough Turkey is allowed to conduct the final 
assembly of T-129, it still remains answerable to the US/Italian companies who 
are still providing licenses and know-how regarding major components like the
*engine*, without which the chopper simply cannot fly.

So even if you can do the final assembly of the T-129s meant for Pakistan, 
you cannot do this without consent of the various foreign companies who 
need to be notified to expand/renew the production licenses for critical equipment 
like the engine.

And ofcourse, the US has the right to know in who's hands their engines are going to end up, no?

That's what I meant when I said interaction with the *end-user*.

Signing of T-129 deal means Pakistan is going to continue reliance on major US 
equipment for a long time to come.



Tameem said:


> Chhoree talay Saaaans tu lai-lu......*tumhain Kya jaldi hai...:*lol:



Didn't understand anything except the highlighted part...what are you trying to say?


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## eagleeye

Tei will produce the engine under license and it has the right for export. of course it could be some rectrictions from the US side to not export the engine to particular countrys maybe china north korea and iran. i think if we couldn't sell it to pakistan no one would offer it and make promotion for the export.

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## Gessler

eagleeye said:


> Tei will produce the engine under license and it has the right for export. of course it could be some rectrictions from the US side to not export the engine to particular countrys maybe china north korea and iran. i think if we couldn't sell it to pakistan no one would offer it and make promotion for the export.



We'll see about the export. However I'll be happy if someone can give me a source which says
TEI can build & export US engines to 3rd party countries without US authorization.

The point to be noted is that Pakistan is not really moving away from dependence on US equipment.


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## Safriz

Gessler said:


> We'll see about the export. However I'll be happy if someone can give me a source which says
> TEI can build & export US engines to 3rd party countries without US authorization.
> 
> The point to be noted is that Pakistan is not really moving away from dependence on US equipment.



It always depends on the legal contract between two countries...
Situation may be similar as Pakistan-Russia-China
Pakistani planes are flying with Russian engines.

TAI cannot manufactue the engines,but may have some leagl rights to export..We wont know.


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## ELTurco

eagleeye said:


> Tei will produce the engine under license and it has the right for export. of course it could be some rectrictions from the US side to not export the engine to particular countrys maybe china north korea and iran. i think if we couldn't sell it to pakistan no one would offer it and make promotion for the export.



I hope so because similarly with Azerbaijan order of t155 howitzer there was some difficulties with license produced engines from other countries.


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## air marshal

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201364871736057

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## air marshal

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201364871736057

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## graphican

It is Mashallah a great great news! Congratulations Pakistan... Congratulations Turkey. 


A Question:
What are the numbers for Roketsan and its products being part of the deal? Is ammunition part of TOT?

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## Neptune

Mann...what's so big to care about third parties. I heard that TEI and TAI also have full licence of export. Even if not, c'mon!!! Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally.

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## RAMPAGE

Neptune said:


> Mann...what's so big to are about third parties. I heard that TEI and TAI also have full licence of export. Even if not, c'mon!!! Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally.


I wouldn't be surprised a bit if this deal went off cuz of our Uncle Sam !!!! 

So no hopes up and in favor of WZ-10 !!!!!!!!


Pakistan-China Yoyi Wansoy

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## Zarvan

Neptune said:


> Mann...what's so big to care about third parties. I heard that TEI and TAI also have full licence of export. Even if not, c'mon!!! Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally.



Sir the problem is that often Indian pressure results in we not getting weapons other than China Sir that is the problem

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## Neptune

I don't think that it'd cause problems. Because "erdogan the magnificant" knows how to tell US/Israel to fuvck off. At least he can do that. Btw Azerbaijan is going to buy ATAK and Italy is also going to upgrade It's current Mangusta fleet to ATAK.

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## -SINAN-

Zarvan said:


> Sir the problem is that often Indian pressure results in we not getting weapons other than China Sir that is the problem



Indian pressure on Turkey ?

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## ELTurco

Sinan said:


> Indian pressure on Turkey ?



You sure need more than that!

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## ELTurco

Neptune said:


> I don't think that it'd cause problems. Because "erdogan the magnificant" knows how to tell US/Israel to fuvck off. At least he can do that. Btw Azerbaijan is going to buy ATAK and Italy is also going to upgrade It's current Mangusta fleet to ATAK.



Turkey and Italy both NATO members who will pressure them?.. 
and last year Italy had some issiues with India so i think Italy will gladly support sales to Pakistan.


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## Zarvan

Sinan said:


> Indian pressure on Turkey ?



I am talking about other European countries I know turkey gives a dam about Indian pressure and they have sold us weapons in the past and INSHALLAH in future because its brother hood

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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> I am talking about other European countries I know turkey gives a dam about Indian pressure and they have sold us weapons in the past and INSHALLAH in future because its brother hood



so its pretty much confirmed since an official demo presented to NS means its coming, be prepared for new "taxes" folks


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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> so its pretty much confirmed since an official demo presented to NS means its coming, be prepared for new "taxes" folks


Nawaz knows how to arrange money can be through other means


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## Nishan_101

Aeronaut said:


> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says Pakistan and Jordan are already Evaluating T-129 ATAK. *
> 
> News source:
> 
> DATE:01/10/09
> SOURCE:Flight International
> ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> By Luca Peruzzi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Programme officials from the ATAK development team have provided further details of Turkey's T129 attack helicopter programme, as its first prototype has completed its debut flight.
> 
> Conducted at AgustaWestland's Vergiate facility in Italy on 28 September, the milestone event involved aircraft P1, the first of five prototypes to be produced under the Turkish Aerospace Industries-led programme.
> 
> Powered by LHTEC T800A-4 engines, the aircraft is one of three T129s to be built in a basic configuration, with the others to enter final assembly at Vergiate in March and July 2010, respectively.
> 
> Kits for the programme's two so-called Turkey Unique Configuration prototypes will be delivered to TAI in April and August 2010. These production-standard airframes will undergo assembly, integration, test and trials in Turkey.
> 
> Critical design reviews for both aircraft versions will be concluded in the second quarter of next year, and all five prototypes should fly by mid-2011. "The joint programme is on time, cost and scheduled programme achievements," says AgustaWestland chief executive Giuseppe Orsi.
> 
> Turkey has ordered 50 production T129s and has options on another 41. The aircraft will be equipped with Turkish-made systems including electronics, forward-looking infrared sensor, cockpit avionics and mission computer from Aselsan, and weapon systems from Roketsan.
> 
> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says the first T129 ATAK will be handed over to the Turkish armed forces in the third quarter of 2013. Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.*
> 
> Source link:ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> Turkey Presses Ahead with its Attack Helicopter Project - The Jamestown Foundation
> 
> " The helicopter program is seen as one of the flagship projects for Turkey's flourishing defense industry, as it will involve not only the transfer of advanced technology, but also the integration of various domestically developed weapons and communications systems. Moreover, since Turkey's TAI will have the exclusive rights to market and sell the final product worldwide, the project is particularly attractive for Turkey. Through this and other ambitious national weapons programs, it aims to emerge as a major player in the global arms industry. *Pakistan, Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have reportedly expressed their interest in purchasing the T-129 (Anadolu Ajansi, September 25)*. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My photoshop Image for you guys depicting our Next generation Attack Helicopter Inshallah in Pakistan colors and this Image is dedicated to my Turkish Brother Cabatli 53 for his Great help and dedication.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards:
> 
> Black Blood.



But Pakistan will go for the best deals like still China has to offer. I am sure PAC would be interested in joining a new attack helicopter program and some transport ones too.


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## IceCold

By the way when one is doing peace talks with Talibans and sugar business with India, what are we going to do with attack hellos.............shoot pigeons

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## fatman17

BTW if we look closely at NS facial expressions during the visit to see the helos, he clearly is least interested....


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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> BTW if we look closely at NS facial expressions during the visit to see the helos, he clearly is least interested....


lol why should he be interested !!!

He's not a defence nerd


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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> BTW if we look closely at NS facial expressions during the visit to see the helos, he clearly is least interested....



Since he came to power his face is like that where ever he goes


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## RAMPAGE

This baby can have a future in PA.  







I hope we go for this one too !!!!


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## Gentelman

Gessler said:


> Have negotiations begun with Italy & US/UK as well? Because Turkey alone cannot call the
> shots on this chopper.



Turkey can call deal on this chopper according to deal with Agust Westland.
just US engine produced in turkey is issue.
dont know wether turkey has rights to sell this engine or not but probably they should have rights.
The IRST,Mission computer,Friend & foe system,ice detection system,emergency locator transmittor,source codes & programs all are Turkish along with Avionics.
even batch 2 used Turkish HMDS.
Turkey produce anti tank and anti perdonnels missiles too.
dont know about anti aircraft weapons. 
it can carry al major and popular westren missiles like hellfire,Aim-7,Stringer and some French and German anti tank missiles too.

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> Since he came to power his face is like that where ever he goes


Yara the guy is overworked. 

Masha-Allah he and his team is doing their very best !!!!


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## Gentelman

RAMPAGE said:


> This baby can have a future in PA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope we go for this one too !!!!



Pehlay aik heli ki to koi news aanay dee
aik kam hua ni pehlay wishlist aagai.
Defence equips hain yara jahez nahin hai



RAMPAGE said:


> This baby can have a future in PA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope we go for this one too !!!!



Pehlay aik heli ki to koi news aanay dee
aik kam hua ni pehlay wishlist aagai.
Defence equips hain yara jahez nahin hai

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## Areesh

IceCold said:


> By the way when one is doing peace talks with Talibans and sugar business with India, what are we going to do with attack hellos.............shoot pigeons



Because everyone knows the talks with those as$hole Taliban are going to fail in any case. So.......

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> BTW if we look closely at NS facial expressions during the visit to see the helos, he clearly is least interested....



Haha, sir jee, his face expression has been like that since he came into power!!!

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## fatman17

according to army sources, the PAA wants to be able to fire the TOWII from the Z-10's which is not possible at this time. finding a avionics suite has been difficult.



RAMPAGE said:


> lol why should he be interested !!!
> 
> He's not a defence nerd



he has to approve it....!


----------



## Roybot

Not trolling, but What are the chances of TAI, AW, NATO and American technology falling into the hands of the Chinese? Am sure TAI's partners will give that a good thought, before giving the go ahead for any joint production deal with Pakistan.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Roybot said:


> Not trolling, but What are the chances of TAI, AW, NATO and American technology falling into the hands of the Chinese? Am sure TAI's partners will give that a good thought, before giving the go ahead for any joint production deal with Pakistan.


lol if you want the blueprints of t-129 and you have the money .... gimme a call 

I'll get you the blueprints from china 



fatman17 said:


> according to army sources, the PAA wants to be able to fire the TOWII from the Z-10's which is not possible at this time. finding a avionics suite has been difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> he has to approve it....!


lol no disrespect but why the **** can't we use Baktar shikan with Z-10 ???


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## nomi007

but deal will takes time


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## RAMPAGE

I hope PN now goes for a TF-2000 JV !!!!


----------



## Roybot

RAMPAGE said:


> lol if you want the blueprints of t-129 and you have the money .... gimme a call
> 
> I'll get you the blueprints from china



I really doubt you personally have the blue prints, if you have got it from someone in the Pakistani military then it reflects badly on their professionalism. 

And blue print isn't the only thing, there is engine technology, manufacturing procedure, NATO standard equipment, sensors, radars, weapons, not only can these things be copied, but can also be used to make effective countermeasures.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Roybot said:


> I really doubt you personally have the blue prints, if you have got it from someone in the Pakistani military then it reflects badly on their professionalism.
> 
> And blue print isn't the only thing, there is engine technology, manufacturing procedure, NATO standard equipment, sensors, radars, weapons, not only can these things be copied, but can also be used to make effective countermeasures.


o bhai all of these designs were hacked by the chinese govt a couple of years back !!!!!


----------



## Roybot

RAMPAGE said:


> o bhai all of these designs were hacked by the chinese govt a couple of years back !!!!!



O really? And you are privvy to this information somehow?


----------



## RAMPAGE

Roybot said:


> O really? And you are privvy to this information somehow?


As a matter of fact i am. 

The chinese have the Apache/Black Hawk designs and blueprints !!!

Here's sum pics from this forum :












The stealthy black hawk was given to china by Pakistan !!!!!!!


----------



## Roybot

RAMPAGE said:


> As a matter of fact i am.
> 
> The chinese have the Apache/Black Hawk designs and blueprints !!!
> 
> Here's sum pics from this forum :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The stealthy black hawk was given to china by Pakistan !!!!!!!*



LMAO you are so naive, its called a mock up.

"US Army apache" chilling in a Chinese defence expo park







And yes there is always a great risk of US and NATO technology falling into the hands of the Chinese via Pakistan, exactly why PAkistan has been denied western technology on so many occasions. Thank you for supporting the point I was trying to raise.


----------



## Kompromat

graphican said:


> It is Mashallah a great great news! Congratulations Pakistan... Congratulations Turkey.
> 
> 
> A Question:
> What are the numbers for Roketsan and its products being part of the deal? Is ammunition part of TOT?



Too early to say, however Pakistan is interested in both cirit and variants of OMTAS/UMTAS.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Roybot said:


> LMAO you are so naive, its called a mock up.
> 
> US Army apache chilling in a Chinese defence expo park
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes there is always a great risk of US and NATO technology falling into the hands of the Chinese via Pakistan, exactly why PAkistan has been denied western technology on so many occasions. Thank you for supporting the point I was trying to raise.


  lolzzzzz forget the pics ... random pics don't prove anything ... urs or mine ..... but the fact is that these designs were hacked by the chinese and they possess the technology !!!!

If your saying that Nato countries are ahead of china in terms of tec than u my friend are kidding urself !!!


----------



## Roybot

RAMPAGE said:


> If your saying that Nato countries are ahead of china in terms of tec than u my friend are kidding urself !!!



And you are living in denial. Even the Chinese accept that European and American tech is superior to theirs. Lets just agree to disagree.

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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> This baby can have a future in PA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope we go for this one too !!!!



When the platform is more mature and China is will to give ToT, maybe, but right now it's...iffy.



RAMPAGE said:


> lolzzzzz forget the pics ... random pics don't prove anything ... urs or mine ..... but the fact is that these designs were hacked by the chinese and they possess the technology !!!!
> 
> *If your saying that Nato countries are ahead of china in terms of tec than u my friend are kidding urself !!!*



Actually, for once I have to agree with @Roybot. The Chinese fully and openly admit this. That's not to say that China isn't catching up, they've been making massive progress, but they're still not at the level of most NATO nations.

The US also feel that their tech may end up falling into Chinese hands, which is why the US is only willing to part with what it feels are old and obsolete technologies, and even then with massive restrictions. Remember the restrictions placed on the PAF F-16 Blk 52s and the reason why the US refuses to sell the predator to Pakistan?


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## RAMPAGE

That Guy said:


> When the platform is more mature and China is will to give ToT, maybe, but right now it's...iffy.


Yara 60 WZ-10's are already in service. this isn't mature enough for you  ???

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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> Yara 60 WZ-10's are already in service. this isn't mature enough for you  ???



If it's good enough for China, it doesn't mean that it's good enough for Pakistan. The Chinese are trying to give service time to the platform as quickly as possible, which is why they're putting them in service on a large scale, this does NOT mean that the system is ready.


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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> Too early to say, however Pakistan is interested in both cirit and variants of OMTAS/UMTAS.



What is OMTAS and UMTAS and I think we should have at least 24 off these and in future 24 Z-10


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## Gessler

Gentelman said:


> Turkey can call deal on this chopper according to deal with Agust Westland.
> just US engine produced in turkey is issue.
> dont know wether turkey has rights to sell this engine or not but probably they should have rights.
> The IRST,Mission computer,Friend & foe system,ice detection system,emergency locator transmittor,source codes & programs all are Turkish along with Avionics.
> even batch 2 used Turkish HMDS.
> Turkey produce anti tank and anti perdonnels missiles too.
> dont know about anti aircraft weapons.
> it can carry al major and popular westren missiles like hellfire,Aim-7,Stringer and some French and German anti tank missiles too.



You just repeated what I said.

BTW, what the heck is an anti-perdonnels missile?


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## Kompromat

ASELSAN Avc&#305; HMCS

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## Kompromat

ROKETSAN - FN Herstal airborne Cirit 2.75" laser guided rocket launcher + grenade launcher pod

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## Amaa'n

so is it confirmed that we will be building T129 at PAC or still a rumor??


Aeronaut said:


> Too early to say, however Pakistan is interested in both cirit and variants of OMTAS/UMTAS.


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## Zarvan

balixd said:


> so is it confirmed that we will be building T129 at PAC or still a rumor??


Sir we are waiting for government announcement sir I think deal would be signed when eordgan would visit Pakistan in November


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## mughaljee

^ So, wait till Nov ?


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## Kompromat

balixd said:


> so is it confirmed that we will be building T129 at PAC or still a rumor??



I have no information on this.


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## Alpha1

I am not sure if pakistan should go for something that has so much western components


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## ozi2000

Sorry Its Turkish but still a good watch.

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## ARSENAL6

GEt the Chinese Involve and have both technologies

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## Gentelman

Alpha1 said:


> I am not sure if pakistan should go for something that has so much western components



so can you please name 2 other western components expect engine used in T-129???

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## Gentelman

Gessler said:


> You just repeated what I said.
> 
> BTW, what the heck is an anti-perdonnels missile?



Spelling mistake
anti-personnels missiles
nah i didnot repeated i added up much things



Gessler said:


> You just repeated what I said.
> 
> BTW, what the heck is an anti-perdonnels missile?



Spelling mistake
anti-personnels missiles
nah i didnot repeated i added up much things


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## Alpha1

Gentelman said:


> so can you please name 2 other western components expect engine used in T-129???



HMD ..,.....


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## hacksquat

Alpha1 said:


> HMD ..,.....



HMD used in production T129 is an Aselsan product:

ASELSAN AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System (HICS) is a personal system solution for attack helicopter pilots. With its ease of use, ergonomic design, symbology and video display capabilities, head tracking functionality, AVCI HICS reduces the pilot workload drammatically during mission. The AVCI HICS consists of four major components the Electronic Unit, the Headgear, the Cockpit modules for head tracking and the Control Panel (optional).

AVCI HICS performs the following functions during mission:

Display video, symbology and night vision to the pilot during the mission in accordance with the pilots choice at day and night conditions.
 Generate the head tracking information in accordance with the pilots head movements for the orientation of FLIR, gun or desired equipment on the platform
 Personalized headgear for the pilot.
 Protect the pilots head and face from impact and penetrating objects

Source: aselsan.com/content.aspx?mid=375&oid=477

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## Stealth

How you rank T129 comparativly with other Gunships ?

Still I like more Cobra Gunship than Apache...


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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> How you rank T129 comparativly with other Gunships ?
> 
> Still I like more Cobra Gunship than Apache...


Super Cobra is good sir but not only cobra


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## Stealth

Zarvan said:


> Super Cobra is good sir but not only cobra



I'm also talking about AH1Z and AH1W  the combination of both in PA will be .......................!


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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> How you rank T129 comparativly with other Gunships ?
> 
> Still I like more Cobra Gunship than Apache...



T-129 > AH-1W Viper
AH-1Z = T-129
AH-64 > AH-1Z.

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## Stealth

Aeronaut said:


> T-129 > AH-1W Viper
> AH-1Z = T-129
> AH-64 > AH-1Z.



I also think Pakistan should go for AH1Z with massive fleet rather than 129 or WZ10.... First no need for further spend money on another platform. Secondly our pilots are already trained for Cobra's ... Third Pakistan Militayr feel much comfortable on Cobra gunships rather than any other option. The only reason is "AMERICAN MADE". But stilll again

Wohi baat... wesay b tu ham Fsola laraka tyaray uraa nahe sakhtay tu Cobra he sahi lolzz kamazkam ham jesay koosh tu hotay raheengay COBRA gunships hain lol


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## S.U.R.B.

What's the thickness of that Bullet proof canopy glass on ATAK T-129 and what's the maximum caliber of hits it can withstand?






















For instance the bullet proof canopy glass of a CAIC WZ-10 is about 38 millimeters thick.
And it can cope with .50 inch caliber (12.7 x 108 mm) heavy machine gun fire.​

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## Arsalan

Aeronaut said:


> T-129 > AH-1W Viper
> AH-1Z = T-129
> AH-64 > AH-1Z.



Pretty fair evaluation if we consider the specs of all these. Not sure about the reliability of the T-129 systems but since they do have a history and most of the components are not BRAND NEW NEXT GENERATION DEVELOPMENT TECHNOLOGY so i guess these will be good enough to justify the above evaluation.

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## Kompromat

Arsalan said:


> Pretty fair evaluation if we consider the specs of all these. Not sure about the reliability of the T-129 systems but since they do have a history and most of the components are not BRAND NEW NEXT GENERATION DEVELOPMENT TECHNOLOGY so i guess these will be good enough to justify the above evaluation.



T-129 is a mature - proven platform. [A-129 Mungusta]

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## Arsalan

Aeronaut said:


> T-129 is a mature - proven platform. [A-129 Mungusta]



Exactly, that is why i said almost all the components do have a history that can be trusted upon

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## Neptune

AH-1 Cobra single eng. variants < AH-1W Super Cobra < AH-1(4B)W Viper < AH-1Z Zulu Cobra a.k.a KingCobra < T-129B or C (spec ops.) < AH-64E......and AC-130U above all...


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## Inception-06

This Helicopters are good but I hope we dont use them against Talibs/ in COIN operations.


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## Gentelman

Alpha1 said:


> HMD ..,.....



you want me to chop off your head??
Move on have some research
Live in present not in past


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## That Guy

Ulla said:


> This Helicopters are good but I hope we dont use them against Talibs/ in COIN operations.



Wait, why? These would be perfect for hunting down insurgents. They provide the perfect close air support that the PA needs.


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## Green Angel

*ATAK Helicopter to Atak hi gaya hai,Kya hua deal ka.*

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## RAMPAGE

Green Angel said:


> *ATAK Helicopter to Atak hi gaya hai,Kya hua deal ka.*


kiun g deal sign karwa kai aap kai ghar bhijwaon ????

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

NICE STEP


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## Kompromat

Neptune said:


> AH-1 Cobra single eng. variants < AH-1W Super Cobra < AH-1(4B)W Viper < AH-1Z Zulu Cobra a.k.a KingCobra < T-129B or C (spec ops.) < AH-64E......and AC-130U above all...



As far as i am concerned.

T-129B = Eurocopter Tiger.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Rafi said:


> NS and RTE are very keen to make this deal the "cornerstone" of the Pak-Turk Strategic Partnership, the Turks are willing to give certain cast iron guarantees regarding the future technical and spare part support, that our side are wanting.
> 
> This deal would not preclude the rejection of the Z-10 which can also be purchased as part of the diversification of our assets as in the AWAC deal.
> 
> Negotiations have gone quite far, with the technical requirements of the PA and PAF Kamra officials (maintenance and possible assembly) taking part.
> 
> The Turks have even given our experienced Cobra pilots presentation and test flight.
> 
> The Turks are also willing to give finance on the deal.



is above-stated information your personal assumption or you have your sources shred this piece of info. with you ... ??

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## Rafi

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4807839 said:


> is above-stated information your personal assumption or you have your sources shred this piece of info. with you ... ??




I have credibility - I post in Pakdef.info and here and have certain avenues of information, lets leave it at that.

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## Inception-06

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4807839 said:


> is above-stated information your personal assumption or you have your sources shred this piece of info. with you ... ??



OFF-TOPIC-I know-!

sorry but I must say it, you have a nice LOGO for ISI, may by you should contact them and offer it to the ISI-Media section, again sorry, but I mean it serious !


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## That Guy

Rafi said:


> I have credibility - I post in Pakdef.info and here and have certain avenues of information, lets leave it at that.



Dude, what the hell has been happening at Pakdef.info lately. I can't access it because it apparently was apart of some "suspicious activity" according to google and my Chrome browser diagnostic tool.

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## Rafi

That Guy said:


> Dude, what the hell has been happening at Pakdef.info lately. I can't access it because it apparently was apart of some "suspicious activity" according to google and my Chrome browser diagnostic tool.



Don't know been pretty quiet over there.


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## Inception-06

That Guy said:


> Wait, why? These would be perfect for hunting down insurgents. They provide the perfect close air support that the PA needs.



Its only about Costs, It would be cheaper if we would buy 20 -30 Super Tucano and use them against the Talibs, while we use the T-129 only at the eastern Border !

By the way MUNIR a Member in pakdef.info (our Brother forum) posted a nice article in about the Turbo-air craft in Coin Role !


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## That Guy

Ulla said:


> OFF-TOPIC-I know-!
> 
> sorry but I must say it, you have a nice LOGO for ISI, may by you should contact them and offer it to the ISI-Media section, again sorry, but I mean it serious !
> 
> Its only about Costs, It would be cheaper if we would buy 20 -30 Super Tucano and use them against the Talibs, while we use the T-129 only at the eastern Border !



That would defeat the entire point. First off, we don't need the Super Tucano, simply because if we wanted to arm trainers, we got the K-8s to do that.

Second, the ST's aren't needed, as our other fighters (including the JF-17) are good enough to fulfill the job requirement as being light bombers.

Attack Helis aren't meant for patrolling long borders, they're meant for close range air support for troops on the ground, or as escorts for transport helicopters. So to put them in the east, and not use them against militants would defeat the entire purpose of having them in the first place.

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## Inception-06

That Guy said:


> That would defeat the entire point. First off, we don't need the Super Tucano, simply because if we wanted to arm trainers, we got the K-8s to do that.
> 
> Second, the ST's aren't needed, as our other fighters (including the JF-17) are good enough to fulfill the job requirement as being light bombers.
> 
> Attack Helis aren't meant for patrolling long borders, they're meant for close range air support for troops on the ground, or as escorts for transport helicopters. So to put them in the east, and not use them against militants would defeat the entire purpose of having them in the first place.



How long can the T-129 stay in air and how long the Tucano ? K-8 cant do that job ! I did read hours about (K-8 and Turbo-prop-aircrafts) the discussions here in this from and in our both brother forums pakdef.info and ********************* the result of this discussions was that the Tucanos are CHEAPER and more effective for PAKISTAN in Coin and close air support operations.

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## That Guy

Ulla said:


> How long can the T-129 stay in air and how long the Tucano ? K-8 cant do that job ! I did read hours about (K-8 and Turbo-prop-aircrafts) the discussions here in this from and in our both brother forums pakdef.info and ********************* the result of this discussions was that the Tucanos are CHEAPER and more effective for PAKISTAN in Coin and close air support operations.



They're meant for different purposes. Helis are meant for close range support that have sustainability. The Tucanos would constantly have to make runs and keep going back to rearm and resupply. Helis can provide an escort and stay on targets from a stationary position, while, again, the Tucanos would have to make a run, turn around and make another run. By the time the Tucano turns and makes another run, the target could be given enough time to hide, run to safety, or worse, shoot the Tucano down while it's back is turned.

The K-8's can be upgraded enough to do the job the Tucanos do, but again, the JF-17s, Mirages, heck, even the F-16s could do the job and with a bigger payload. It would be a redundant capability.



Rafi said:


> Don't know been pretty quiet over there.



huh, such a shame. Sad to see a community decline.

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## Inception-06

That Guy said:


> huh, such a shame. Sad to see a community decline.




pakdef.info is working very fine I dont know why you have problems with it, I am every day on 4 forums, first is pakdef.com, second p a k i s t a n i d e f e n c e . c o m, than defence.pk and indian bharatrakshak.com ( a very racist, anti Muslim anti China-arab-pakistani forum). The second forum is a died, sad but true.

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## That Guy

Ulla said:


> pakdef.info is working very fine I dont know why you have problems with it, I am every day on 4 forums, first is pakdef.com, second p a k i s t a n i d e f e n c e . c o m, than defence.pk and indian bharatrakshak.com ( a very racist, anti Muslim anti China-arab-pakistani forum). The second forum is a died, sad but true.



Apparently, pakdef has been suffering from viruses or something, at least that's what my diagnostic tool says. It uploads software without the user's consent.

I only really go on this forum anymore, I just have time to keep track of more than one.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Rafi said:


> I have credibility - I post in Pakdef.info and here and have certain avenues of information, lets leave it at that.



all-right then good enough reason for me to believe ...


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Ulla said:


> OFF-TOPIC-I know-!
> 
> sorry but I must say it, you have a nice LOGO for ISI, may by you should contact them and offer it to the ISI-Media section, again sorry, but I mean it serious !



first of all : i'm extremly impressed & inspired frOm PakisTan 's 1.S.1. not because i am a pakistani but because of the miraCles our |.S.|. puLL Off against the enemies 0f PakisTan ...  

SeCond thing is that : i,me myself Love this asToniShing Logo but un-fortunately i just can not simply contact 1.s.1. for the purpose you mentioned earlier as i do not have too many relatives in PakisTan military who can be of use for that matter ... 

but i give you full authority to communicate this I.S.I.'s LogO to the relevant guys of 1.S.1. ...

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## Green Angel

RAMPAGE said:


> kiun g deal sign karwa kai aap kai ghar bhijwaon ????



2,4 ATAK Bhej do


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## Inception-06

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4808817 said:


> first of all : i'm extremly impressed & inspired frOm PakisTan 's 1.S.1. not because i am a pakistani but because of the miraCles our |.S.|. puLL Off against the enemies 0f PakisTan ...
> 
> SeCond thing is that : i,me myself Love this asToniShing Logo but un-fortunately i just can not simply contact 1.s.1. for the purpose you mentioned earlier as i do not have too many relatives in PakisTan military who can be of use for that matter ...
> 
> but i give you full authority to communicate this I.S.I.'s LogO to the relevant guys of 1.S.1. ...



Thx, this are god words keep on to support Pakistan !

I have many relatives in Pakistan Army, most of them if not all are in the Gujranwala Corps, when I will make again a trip to the Gujranwala Cant, I will ask the guys there about this issue.


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## Casus Belli



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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Ulla said:


> Thx, this are god words keep on to support Pakistan !
> 
> I have many relatives in Pakistan Army, most of them if not all are in the Gujranwala Corps, when I will make again a trip to the Gujranwala Cant, I will ask the guys there about this issue.



brOther , You are m0st We|||Come ...


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## Kompromat

ATAK, PAK&#304;STAN BA&#350;BAKANI &#304;Ç&#304;N UÇTU

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## Inception-06

Some gents were argumenting to buy the T-129 and not the Chinese Helicopter because "Turkey will give us also spare parts when we will come under sanctions, like they did it with our F-16 in the past......" ............ Thats wrong if Turkey would have been so good in that case, than we would not had this situation in the Kargil war 1999:""After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be rationalised," And that proves that the Turks could not help us in Kargil war 1999 by providing us with spare parts for the F-16.

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## That Guy

Ulla said:


> Some gents were argumenting to buy the T-129 and not the Chinese Helicopter because "Turkey will give us also spare parts when we will come under sanctions, like they did it with our F-16 in the past......" ............ Thats wrong if Turkey would have been so good in that case, than we would not had this situation in the Kargil war 1999:""After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be &#8216;rationalised&#8217;," And that proves that the Turks could not help us in Kargil war 1999 by providing us with spare parts for the F-16.



Uh no.

Turkey had no obligation to help us and get involved in a war, nor should they be blamed for staying away. The fact that they ignored sanctions from their closest ally (US) to help Pakistan is enough to prove that they're reliable partners and suppliers.


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## Inception-06

That Guy said:


> Uh no.
> 
> Turkey had no obligation to help us and get involved in a war, nor should they be blamed for staying away. The fact that they ignored sanctions from their closest ally (US) to help Pakistan is enough to prove that they're reliable partners and suppliers.



According to Kaiser Tufail.......the Indian Air Force did get Help form Israel during Kargil war, so why Israel was not involved in war ^^ ?


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## That Guy

Ulla said:


> According to Kaiser Tufail.......the Indian Air Force did get Help form Israel during Kargil war, so why Israel was not involved in war ^^ ?



The reason why Israel may have helped India is because Israel has an invested interest to see Pakistan fail. Pakistan is the only credible threat to Israel. Hamas, Hezbullah, the Arab nations, Iran, these are all nuisances to Israel. Pakistan is the only one that can effectively challenge Israel like it proved during the Arab Israeli war of 67. By 1999, Pakistan was a nuclear state, which made it even more of a threat.


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## Nishan_101

Really running this thread is useless rather start up a threat regarding JV with China on Attack and Transport helicopter.


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## 帅的一匹

Ulla said:


> How long can the T-129 stay in air and how long the Tucano ? K-8 cant do that job ! I did read hours about (K-8 and Turbo-prop-aircrafts) the discussions here in this from and in our both brother forums pakdef.info and ********************* the result of this discussions was that the Tucanos are CHEAPER and more effective for PAKISTAN in Coin and close air support operations.



I think paf could consider both T129 and WZ10 at the same time, neither of them is a must.


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## A1Kaid

wanglaokan said:


> I think paf could consider both T129 and WZ10 at the same time, neither of them is a must.




I think the problem with that is trying to integrate two different attack helicopter platforms simultaneously maybe too difficult and too costly. Two separate lines of parts, training, physics, mechanics, are involved.

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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> I think paf could consider both T129 and WZ10 at the same time, neither of them is a must.



PAF doesn't operate attack helos, only the Army aviation does.

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## itaskol

WZ10 dosent have export version till now.


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## Inception-06

That Guy said:


> The reason why Israel may have helped India is because Israel has an invested interest to see Pakistan fail. Pakistan is the only credible threat to Israel. Hamas, Hezbullah, the Arab nations, Iran, these are all nuisances to Israel. Pakistan is the only one that can effectively challenge Israel like it proved during the Arab Israeli war of 67. By 1999, Pakistan was a nuclear state, which made it even more of a threat.



So I was right with my post !


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## That Guy

Ulla said:


> So I was right with my post !



No, because Turkey doesn't have any real vested interest to see Pakistan succeed or fail, whereas Israel considers Pakistan as one of it's greatest threats.

Difference.


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## S.U.R.B.

*A view from inside.*









































As you guys must be busy in finding the answer to the question that i had posted before on this thread.I thought why not gather few of the cockpit snaps for the interested audience.

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## HAIDER

Pakistan should consider Mangusta A129, already in production .


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## ANG

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal

ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA &#8212; Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.

However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.

Pakistani media reports state a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), but speculation that preparations are already underway to build a new helicopter production facility there could not be confirmed.

Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif&#8217;s Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for the Third High Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129&#8217;s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.

Turkish officials confirmed talks have &#8220;matured to a certain extent,&#8221; and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

&#8220;We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,&#8221; said one senior procurement official in Ankara. &#8220;We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.&#8221;

The official declined to comment on the modality of any deal.

However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.

Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.

However, a Turkish procurement official dealing with international agreements and financing voiced doubt over Pakistan&#8217;s ability to afford a deal.

&#8220;We know that Pakistan is not in the best financial shape. But this could be overcome with political will,&#8221; he said.

Salma Malik, assistant professor at the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Islamabad&#8217;s Quaid-i-Azam University, is uncertain, but not dismissive, saying this &#8220;depends on how and what kind of budgetary allocation the concerned offices have, and how they have outlaid it.&#8221;

A more serious potential obstacle, however, is obtaining US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the T-129.

A US industry source in Ankara said a US export license for the T-129&#8217;s engine would be critical. &#8220;This may require complex deliberations in Washington, involving many industrial and political parameters,&#8221; he said.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said Congress holds the key to the deal.

&#8220;It is most unlikely that either the White House or the Pentagon would attempt to deny an export license to Turkey for T-129 power plants and ancillaries, but the Defense Security Cooperation [Agency] is required to notify Congress of most proposed sales and obtain approval,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.&#8221;
 
Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.

In remarks carried by Turkish daily Today&#8217;s Zaman, Turkey&#8217;s procurement chief, Murad Bayar, said Sept. 23 that the T-129 attack helicopter &#8220;had strong export potential.&#8221;

The T-129 has been going through acceptance tests before deliveries for the Turkish military. Officials expect the first delivery to be made within the next few weeks.

&#8220;We may complete the delivery of the first nine helicopters by the end of the year,&#8221; Bayar said. &#8220;After these helicopters make their way into the Turkish inventory, I believe they will have strong chances for export.&#8221;

Azerbaijan is reportedly looking to buy 60 T-129 helicopters. Jordan&#8217;s King Abdullah, who was in Turkey in March, visited Turkish Aerospace Industries, co-maker of the T-129, and examined both the helicopter gunship and Turkey&#8217;s first locally-developed drone, the Anka.

Despite Turkey&#8217;s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.

No one at the defense section in the US Embassy would comment on the matter, but details were confirmed by sources in Pakistan familiar with the deal.

Pakistan has been awarded US $300 million in foreign military financing for FY2013-2014, which could be used to procure the Viper attack helicopters, made by Bell.

This is part of a wider deal discussed during US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter&#8217;s trip to Islamabad on Sept. 17.

Cloughley, however, does not believe Pakistan will be tempted.

&#8220;I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.&#8221;

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## HAIDER

ANG said:


> Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com
> 
> Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal
> 
> ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA  Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.
> 
> However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.
> 
> Pakistani media reports state a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), but speculation that preparations are already underway to build a new helicopter production facility there could not be confirmed.
> 
> Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharifs Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for the Third High Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.
> 
> Turkish officials confirmed talks have matured to a certain extent, and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.
> 
> We see that both countries are keen to cooperate, said one senior procurement official in Ankara. We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.
> 
> The official declined to comment on the modality of any deal.
> 
> However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.
> 
> Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.
> 
> However, a Turkish procurement official dealing with international agreements and financing voiced doubt over Pakistans ability to afford a deal.
> 
> We know that Pakistan is not in the best financial shape. But this could be overcome with political will, he said.
> 
> Salma Malik, assistant professor at the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Islamabads Quaid-i-Azam University, is uncertain, but not dismissive, saying this depends on how and what kind of budgetary allocation the concerned offices have, and how they have outlaid it.
> 
> A more serious potential obstacle, however, is obtaining US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the T-129.
> 
> A US industry source in Ankara said a US export license for the T-129s engine would be critical. This may require complex deliberations in Washington, involving many industrial and political parameters, he said.
> 
> Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said Congress holds the key to the deal.
> 
> It is most unlikely that either the White House or the Pentagon would attempt to deny an export license to Turkey for T-129 power plants and ancillaries, but the Defense Security Cooperation [Agency] is required to notify Congress of most proposed sales and obtain approval, he said.
> 
> Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.
> 
> Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.
> 
> In remarks carried by Turkish daily Todays Zaman, Turkeys procurement chief, Murad Bayar, said Sept. 23 that the T-129 attack helicopter had strong export potential.
> 
> The T-129 has been going through acceptance tests before deliveries for the Turkish military. Officials expect the first delivery to be made within the next few weeks.
> 
> We may complete the delivery of the first nine helicopters by the end of the year, Bayar said. After these helicopters make their way into the Turkish inventory, I believe they will have strong chances for export.
> 
> Azerbaijan is reportedly looking to buy 60 T-129 helicopters. Jordans King Abdullah, who was in Turkey in March, visited Turkish Aerospace Industries, co-maker of the T-129, and examined both the helicopter gunship and Turkeys first locally-developed drone, the Anka.
> 
> Despite Turkeys hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.
> 
> No one at the defense section in the US Embassy would comment on the matter, but details were confirmed by sources in Pakistan familiar with the deal.
> 
> Pakistan has been awarded US $300 million in foreign military financing for FY2013-2014, which could be used to procure the Viper attack helicopters, made by Bell.
> 
> This is part of a wider deal discussed during US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carters trip to Islamabad on Sept. 17.
> 
> Cloughley, however, does not believe Pakistan will be tempted.
> 
> I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.


Well, if US offer something to Pakistan, then it can be better deal, because ATAK major components are either come from US or US based firms in Europe, specially engines.

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## Gryphon

> *Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.*


 @Ulla 
So, Sir Usman Ansari has finally confirmed that Panter production has started at HIT.. 


Hope US Congress approves the export of LHTEC CTS800-4N engines to Pakistan. It will be great to see PAC manufacturing T-129s under license. This will also decrease its unit cost.. 








HAIDER said:


> Well, if US offer something to Pakistan, then it can be better deal, because ATAK major components are either come from US or US based firms in Europe, specially engines.



The article itself mentions some things due to which Pakistan won't like to purchase AH-1Z Viper. The unit cost, operating cost, spare parts are all big problems. Forget their production by PAC, I think even if purchased, the US will deploy some guys to check the Chinese...


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## cabatli_53

ANG said:


> Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com
> 
> Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal
> 
> 
> Turkish officials confirmed talks have &#8220;matured to a certain extent,&#8221; and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.
> 
> &#8220;We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,&#8221; said one senior procurement official in Ankara. &#8220;We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. *The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts*.&#8221;




That's a clear cooperation and ToT offer for some workshares which will be manufactured for domestic-future contacts by Pakistani industry. With this way, Source indicates that Pakistan gonna be internationally declared manufacturer for the T-129 Atak.


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## That Guy

cabatli_53 said:


> That's a clear cooperation and ToT offer for some workshares which will be manufactured for domestic-future contacts by Pakistani industry. With this way, Source indicates that Pakistan gonna be internationally declared manufacturer for the T-129 Atak.



It's odd though, would the PA still go for it knowing that the US may end up either blocking the deal or sanctioning them after the purchase?

One thing I'll make clear, Pakistan is NOT going to go for a US heli unless it make certain guarantees (which it won't), and even then domestic pressure right now would suggest that any deal with the US will fall through, no matter how much in favor it is towards Pakistan.

Though, I have to say that even the deal with the T-129 is risky because some parts come from the US, but I still say that despite the risks, PA should go for the T-129. Though I'm not so sure that the PA see it that way, but if Pakistan can get a comprehensive ToT that covers enough for Pakistan to potentially be able to maintain and even develop the heli on it's own, then it will be worth going through with the deal, because Pakistan wouldn't have to worry about the sanctions as much, but even then some part are just going to be impossible to get ToTs on (engines as a good example of this).

THE MAIN PROBLEM however is the cost. According to sources, PA is getting an absolutely amazing deal with the T-129 with local production, but the maintenance costs have to be absurdly high. Unless Pakistan can some how financially benefit from this deal, I doubt that Pakistan will be able to eat the long term costs of maintenance.


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## That Guy

HAIDER said:


> Well, if US offer something to Pakistan, then it can be better deal, because ATAK major components are either come from US or US based firms in Europe, specially engines.



There are problems with both the US offer and Turkish offer, but with Turkey, even if the parts are US, Pakistan still gets ToTs and domestic production to secure the long term maintenance parts of the helis. Now add to all that 3 free T-129s, Turkey's offer blows the US offer out of the water.


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## HAIDER

That Guy said:


> There are problems with both the US offer and Turkish offer, but with Turkey, even if the parts are US, Pakistan still gets ToTs and domestic production to secure the long term maintenance parts of the helis. Now add to all that 3 free T-129s, Turkey's offer blows the US offer out of the water.


Still need US-EU approval to sell the engine and engine parts to Pakistan.

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## That Guy

HAIDER said:


> Still need US-EU approval to sell the engine and engine parts to Pakistan.



US, not EU.

The US won't deny Turkey, it's relations are too important for the US. Turkey is not a part of the EU, so it has no obligations to follow EU arms protocols, and the funny thing is that even EU nations such as France and UK don't follow EU protocols.

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## SQ8

That Guy said:


> US, not EU.
> 
> The US won't deny Turkey, it's relations are too important for the US. Turkey is not a part of the EU, so it has no obligations to follow EU arms protocols, and the funny thing is that even EU nations such as France and UK don't follow EU protocols.



Another pertinent point is that the Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan that powers the K-8 also comes from the US. So it simply depends on the US Congress on whether they authorize the DSCA to release the particular technology to the US. It was also the very same Congress the did not allow the MLU to be carried out in Pakistan and still imposes strict monitoring measures on the MLU being carried out at TAI.


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## That Guy

Oscar said:


> Another pertinent point is that the Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan that powers the K-8 also comes from the US. So it simply depends on the US Congress on whether they authorize the DSCA to release the particular technology to the US. It was also the very same Congress the did not allow the MLU to be carried out in Pakistan and still imposes strict monitoring measures on the MLU being carried out at TAI.



Of course, but that doesn't mean they'll deny Turkey an export licence. Pakistan and Turkey are held at different standards simply because of the geopolitical and geostrategic locations. Pakistan, being close to China, isn't trusted enough for congress to say that Pakistan won't show China it's technology; Meanwhile, Turkey is a long time ally and has proven it's worth in helping the US and NATO in military operations.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the engine is going to come to Pakistan through Turkey, not directly from the US. It's the same principle as Russia is doing with the RD-93 jet engine engine which goes through China to get to Pakistan.


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## Inception-06

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> @Ulla
> So, Sir Usman Ansari has finally confirmed that Panter production has started at HIT..




So sad, that everyone is still thinking HIT is producing the Panthers, HIT never did show any produced piece of this Panthers since 2009, they always show everything on Ideas defence exhibitions from 9mm Gun too Shaheen II 2500 km missiles, but we never did see asingle Panther PRODUCED by HIT. I will not buy this unconfirmed Story also not by Usman, still our Troops will be shown with it or be equipped with this Panthers, may be they wanted start the production, but the lack of funds did not allow it.


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## khanasifm

Oscar said:


> Another pertinent point is that the Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan that powers the K-8 also comes from the US. So it simply depends on the US Congress on whether they authorize the DSCA to release the particular technology to the US. It was also the very same Congress the did not allow the MLU to be carried out in Pakistan and still imposes strict monitoring measures on the MLU being carried out at TAI.




Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan is a commercial product and not a defense product which are under ITAR, it still requires commercial products export regulation Export Administration Regulations (EAR) - BIS approval


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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan is a commercial product and not a defense product which are under ITAR, it still requires commercial products export regulation Export Administration Regulations (EAR) - BIS approval



Many engines of the Rotax series also fell under EAR but was banned for export to Pakistan(unless that has changed). 
Hence, my point that release of any American component comes under the control of the US in any deal regarding the T-129 and may be changed at the whim of the US house of representatives.


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## Safriz

TAI will have to go the JF-17 way..
The helo should be able to slot in some other engine if the American engine is baned...

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## That Guy

Dreamreaper said:


> TAI will have to go the JF-17 way..
> The helo should be able to slot in some other engine if the American engine is baned...



The engine will get to Pakistan through Turkey, so it doesn't matter what the US does. They may ban Pakistan, but they won't reject Turkey and Pakistan will get the engines through Turkey anyways.

The Turks helped Pakistan with the F-16s during the 90s sanctions, they'll certainly help Pakistan with this.


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## Safriz

That Guy said:


> The engine will get to Pakistan through Turkey, so it doesn't matter what the US does. They may ban Pakistan, but they won't reject Turkey and Pakistan will get the engines through Turkey anyways.
> 
> The Turks helped Pakistan with the F-16s during the 90s sanctions, they'll certainly help Pakistan with this.



Such important defence procuremenrs are based of solid contracts and legally binding assurances...Not ''brotherly relations'' and ''Help''.
TAI is a Business entity...not Pakistan's ''Tai amma''.
It will have to be made sure what export right they have from engine manufacturers Rolls royce and Honeywell.

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## Safriz

And Lets not forget that Pakistan Didnt get VERA-E or any version of VERA from Czech republic due to USA meddling....
So anything coming from USA is even more prone to be meddled with and banned for Pakistan.

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## HAIDER

Dreamreaper said:


> And Lets not forget that Pakistan Didnt get VERA-E or any version of VERA from Czech republic due to USA meddling....
> So anything coming from USA is even more prone to be meddled with and banned for Pakistan.


US bought VERA manufacturing company.


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## Safriz

HAIDER said:


> US bought VERA manufacturing company.



That happened in 2009.
Pakistan asked for VERA in 2005, but the czech manufacturer was asked not to supply the system to Pakistan.

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## That Guy

Dreamreaper said:


> Such important defence procuremenrs are based of solid contracts and legally binding assurances...Not ''brotherly relations'' and ''Help''.
> TAI is a Business entity...not Pakistan's ''Tai amma''.
> It will have to be made sure what export right they have from engine manufacturers Rolls royce and Honeywell.



I have never believed in the so called "brotherly relations" between nations, simply because no such things exist.

I speak from a completely political and strategic point of view. There is a reason why Turkey has always helped Pakistan and ignored sanctions from the US and EU.

Besides, T-129 in the Pakistani military would look good for Turkey's resume, which would help alleviate the status for Turkey's attack copters and may even win them future contracts with other nations. This means more money for Turkey and as a result Turkey will be more susceptible to selling high tech weaponry to Pakistan because they'll have seen the benefits (i.e; Chain reaction).


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## farhan_9909

As per Usman Ansari

*3 Of them are/were gifted to Pakistan
* MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers is locally manufactured in HIT
*




> ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA  Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.
> 
> However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.
> *
> Pakistani media reports state a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), but speculation that preparations are already underway to build a new helicopter production facility there could not be confirmed.
> *
> Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharifs Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for the Third High Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.
> 
> Turkish officials confirmed talks have matured to a certain extent, and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.
> 
> We see that both countries are keen to cooperate, said one senior procurement official in Ankara. We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.
> 
> The official declined to comment on the modality of any deal.
> *
> However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.
> *
> *Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.
> *
> However, a Turkish procurement official dealing with international agreements and financing voiced doubt over Pakistans ability to afford a deal.
> *
> We know that Pakistan is not in the best financial shape. But this could be overcome with political will, he said.*
> 
> Salma Malik, assistant professor at the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Islamabads Quaid-i-Azam University, is uncertain, but not dismissive, saying this depends on how and what kind of budgetary allocation the concerned offices have, and how they have outlaid it.
> 
> A more serious potential obstacle, however, is obtaining US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the T-129.
> 
> A US industry source in Ankara said a US export license for the T-129s engine would be critical. This may require complex deliberations in Washington, involving many industrial and political parameters, he said.
> 
> Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said Congress holds the key to the deal.
> 
> It is most unlikely that either the White House or the Pentagon would attempt to deny an export license to Turkey for T-129 power plants and ancillaries, but the Defense Security Cooperation [Agency] is required to notify Congress of most proposed sales and obtain approval, he said.
> 
> Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.
> 
> Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.
> 
> In remarks carried by Turkish daily Todays Zaman, Turkeys procurement chief, Murad Bayar, said Sept. 23 that the T-129 attack helicopter had strong export potential.
> 
> The T-129 has been going through acceptance tests before deliveries for the Turkish military. Officials expect the first delivery to be made within the next few weeks.
> 
> We may complete the delivery of the first nine helicopters by the end of the year,&#148; Bayar said. After these helicopters make their way into the Turkish inventory, I believe they will have strong chances for export.
> 
> Azerbaijan is reportedly looking to buy 60 T-129 helicopters. Jordans King Abdullah, who was in Turkey in March, visited Turkish Aerospace Industries, co-maker of the T-129, and examined both the helicopter gunship and Turkeys first locally-developed drone, the Anka.
> 
> Despite Turkeys hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.
> 
> No one at the defense section in the US Embassy would comment on the matter, but details were confirmed by sources in Pakistan familiar with the deal.
> 
> Pakistan has been awarded US $300 million in foreign military financing for FY2013-2014, which could be used to procure the Viper attack helicopters, made by Bell.
> 
> This is part of a wider deal discussed during US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carters trip to Islamabad on Sept. 17.
> 
> Cloughley, however, does not believe Pakistan will be tempted.
> 
> I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.



Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## Kompromat

US blocks Turkey's 'flagship sale' and risks souring relations with a NATO member as well as with Pakistan, another MNNA. Pakistan gets pisssed off - commits to WZ-10. It will be a diplomatic disaster for the US if that happens.

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## Pakistani E

The US sometimes acts like a playground bully who wants everyone to buy candy just from him and no one else. It also wants the world to pay attention to it, talk about self consciousness lol.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

This has been in the pipeline since giklani went to turkiye... co-production or tot was offered even back than... I opened a thread in it aswell..,. As for temptation.. I don't think so...

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## T-123456

In the end,Pakistan is in a good position to get the best offer.
T-129,WZ-10 or AH-1Z Viper all three are comparable so it doesnt really matter for now which one you get in short notice.
For the future,there will allways be more opportunities for license/co-production.

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## massattack

Thank you for sharing info on the mean machine guys.... we are definitely in need of this weapon to iron out buggers hidding in the mountains


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## massattack

i agree with you to some extent as the main benefit that you have mentioned comes with the deal if they make it with anyother nation but as far as my information they have given 3 copter for free and also there are talks of having it totally built here at kamra.. which means they probably dont have the same offer for everyone else


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## T-123456

That Guy said:


> I have never believed in the so called "brotherly relations" between nations, simply because no such things exist.
> 
> I speak from a completely political and strategic point of view. There is a reason why Turkey has always helped Pakistan and ignored sanctions from the US and EU.
> 
> Besides, T-129 in the Pakistani military would look good for Turkey's resume, which would help alleviate the status for Turkey's attack copters and may even win them future contracts with other nations. This means more money for Turkey and as a result Turkey will be more susceptible to selling high tech weaponry to Pakistan because they'll have seen the benefits (i.e; Chain reaction).


What political or strategic gain would Turkey have from good relations with Pakistan?
I would like to see your view on this,cause if we look at it from a strategic or political point,i dont think that would be the best option.


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## LonE_WolF

I think Pakistan should evaluate both T-129 nd WZ-10. Then go for the one which is better

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## SQ8

At this point, it seems there is a cold shoulder by both Pakistan and the US to each other it could be felt at the UN. 
So, chances are that the US might block this deal anyway without offering the AH-1Z.

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## T-123456

Oscar said:


> At this point, it seems there is a cold shoulder by both Pakistan and the US to each other it could be felt at the UN.
> So, chances are that the US might block this deal anyway without offering the AH-1Z.


What would be better for the US interests,lose Pakistan more and more to China or try to win them back?
Either by offerring the AH-1Z or allowing the Turkish deal(engines).

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## SQ8

T-123456 said:


> What would be better for the US interests,lose Pakistan more and more to China or try to win them back?
> Either by offerring the AH-1Z or allowing the Turkish deal(engines).



Appease India by curtailing Pakistan and get them permanently as the US Sheriff in Asia.

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## Gessler

I already expected this...I think a lot of other members expected this too.


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## T-123456

Oscar said:


> Appease India by curtailing Pakistan and get them permanently as the US Sheriff in Asia.


Dont know if that would be a good option for the US.
Lose Pakistan(a nuclear weapons country)for good to China?
What police role can India have when China is close to Pakistan and coming closer to Bangladesh?
Fish in a bowl?

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## Armstrong

T-123456 said:


> Dont know if that would be a good option for the US.
> Lose Pakistan(a nuclear weapons country)for good to China?
> What police role can India have when China is close to Pakistan and coming closer to Bangladesh?
> Fish in a bowl?



Since when did the US give a frig about Pakistan ?  

Granted that our services are proportionate to the $$$s they throw at our Leaders but even that has its limits ! 

We're not towing their line on Afghanistan any more, we've never towed their line on China & we most certainly will never tow their line on India or our nukes !

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## SQ8

T-123456 said:


> Dont know if that would be a good option for the US.
> Lose Pakistan(a nuclear weapons country)for good to China?
> What police role can India have when China is close to Pakistan and coming closer to Bangladesh?
> Fish in a bowl?



It can, India is still a very strong country which has the potential to match China in certain aspects provided it gets the support. The rest is geopoltics. India tries to outflank China, China tries to do the same to it and the US. Moreover, having two Asian giants battle it out instead of the US needing to Contain China gives it cannon fodder so it may avoid having to spend too much in trying to counter the Chinese.

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## Gessler

Aeronaut said:


> US blocks Turkey's 'flagship sale' and risks souring relations with a NATO member



But I don't think Turkey would try to sour it's relation with US either, for the sake of a chopper sale
to Pakistan, or would it???



> as well as with Pakistan, another MNNA.



Which is why they will not openly say Pak shouldn't get anything from NATO...they will block T-129,
but they could offer AH-1Z after 2015. Super Cobra is also very good, and also quite similar to the AH-1F/S
that you currently operate.



> Pakistan gets pisssed off - commits to WZ-10. It will be a diplomatic disaster for the US if that happens.



That won't change the fact that you wanted something, but did not get it. Secondly, if you'd get WZ-10
(or WZ-19), why waste time on T-129? Just ask China for Z-10 straight away instead of haggling with
Uncle Sam for his ultimately superior products, which albeit come with dozens of strings attached.


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## T-123456

Armstrong said:


> Since when did the US give a frig about Pakistan ?
> 
> Granted that our services are proportionate to the $$$s they throw at our Leaders but even that has its limits !
> 
> We're not towing their line on Afghanistan any more, we've never towed their line on China & we most certainly will never tow their line on India or our nukes !


I was talking about US interests,not Pakistans interests.
Btw,it was your leaders who let Pakistan be used by the US,maybe this time it will change(you think?).
It would be wise for the US to keep Pakistan as an ''ally'' and the US knows that.

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## T-123456

Oscar said:


> It can, India is still a very strong country which has the potential to match China in certain aspects provided it gets the support. The rest is geopoltics. India tries to outflank China, China tries to do the same to it and the US. Moreover, having two Asian giants battle it out instead of the US needing to Contain China gives it cannon fodder so it may avoid having to spend too much in trying to counter the Chinese.


Countries are becoming more independent on each other,The US can try whatever but i dont think India will give them the opportunity to be used.

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## Armstrong

T-123456 said:


> I was talking about US interests,not Pakistans interests.
> Btw,it was your leaders who let Pakistan be used by the US,maybe this time it will change(you think?).
> It would be wise for the US to keep Pakistan as an ''ally'' and the US knows that.



I was talking about the same !  

How can US Interests be served if Pakistan isn't towing their line on the core issues it wants Pakistan to tow their line on - China, Afghanistan, India, the nukes etc.  

At any rate the US also knows that the amount of resentment in Pakistan, amongst the Pakistani Public, against the US Foreign Policy & by extension the State isn't going to go away soon & any action of any Government whereby it is seen to tow the US Line isn't much appreciated - Too much of that & the Pakistani Public would turn on that Party so they (the Political Parties) have to do a balancing act between them (the Pakistani People) & the United States along with the Pakistan Army (the Establishment) exerting significant influence on almost all of the core areas !

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## Kompromat

Gessler said:


> But I don't think Turkey would try to sour it's relation with US either, for the sake of a chopper sale
> to Pakistan, or would it???



Turkey will see it as a US assault on its infant military industry, desperate to find foreign sales to fuel its R&D. 



> Which is why they will not openly say Pak shouldn't get anything from NATO...they will block T-129,
> but they could offer AH-1Z after 2015. Super Cobra is also very good, and also quite similar to the AH-1F/S
> that you currently operate.



Pakistan will not ditch Turkey to go for AH-1Z. Not to forget that they won't be available for exports before 2017. If Pakistan goes for Vipers, it will sour our relations with Turkey.



> That won't change the fact that you wanted something, but did not get it. Secondly, if you'd get WZ-10
> (or WZ-19), why waste time on T-129? Just ask China for Z-10 straight away instead of haggling with
> Uncle Sam for his ultimately superior products, which albeit come with dozens of strings attached.



If worst comes to worst, WZ-10 will carry a strong political message for America.

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## Echo_419

T-123456 said:


> Dont know if that would be a good option for the US.
> Lose Pakistan(a nuclear weapons country)for good to China?
> What police role can India have when China is close to Pakistan and coming closer to Bangladesh?
> Fish in a bowl?



This is absolute nonsense 
India as a inde Foriegn policy since her Independence 
& we pakistanis love to talk about how we are getting close to US 
Wake up people India is & will always be on India's side only 
& if we are using our influence to stop arms sales to Pakistan,then it is a good thing 
Just search on google how much they irritate & interface in our internal affairs


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## T-123456

Armstrong said:


> I was talking about the same !
> 
> How can US Interests be served if Pakistan isn't towing their line on the core issues it wants Pakistan to tow their line on - China, Afghanistan, India, the nukes etc.
> 
> At any rate the US also knows that the amount of resentment in Pakistan, amongst the Pakistani Public, against the US Foreign Policy & by extension the State isn't going to go away soon & any action of any Government whereby it is seen to tow the US Line isn't much appreciated - Too much of that & the Pakistani Public would turn on that Party so they (the Political Parties) have to do a balancing act between them (the Pakistani People) & the United States along with the Pakistan Army (the Establishment) exerting significant influence on almost all of the core areas !


Why so many expensive words?
Just say:We the people have had it with working for US interests,our politicians should work for us from now on or face the consequences!
Btw,very good no crying



Echo_419 said:


> This is absolute nonsense
> India as a inde Foriegn policy since her Independence
> & we pakistanis love to talk about how we are getting close to US
> Wake up people India is & will always be on India's side only
> & if we are using our influence to stop arms sales to Pakistan,then it is a good thing
> Just search on google how much they irritate & interface in our internal affairs


Do you see your country beeing used for US interests?

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## T-123456

Aeronaut said:


> Pakistan will not ditch Turkey to go for AH-1Z. Not to forget that they won't be available for exports before 2017. If Pakistan goes for Vipers, it will sour our relations with Turkey.



Our relations will allways be the same,nothing a deal more or less can change.

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## Gessler

Aeronaut said:


> Turkey will see it as a US assault on its infant military industry, desperate to find foreign sales to fuel its R&D.



There is a lot more than military industry at stake. If T-129 is not sold, it will 'hurt' Turkey, Italy, UK and
the USA's industries as well (all their products are in this chopper). Not just Turkey. Plus T-129
is not 100% Turkish, so by common sense, Turkey obviously remains answerable to all the countries
and companies who have contributed to make this helicopter a reality.

If T-129 is 100% Turkish, then the West will have much less of a point to make. But it's not, that's
the problem, one that only Turkey can solve in some way.



> Pakistan will not ditch Turkey to go for AH-1Z. Not to forget that they won't be available for exports before 2017. If Pakistan goes for Vipers, it will sour our relations with Turkey.



But what can you do if US stays firm that it won't allow Turkey to sell choppers? Obviously you will
either have to sit down and try to solve the differences in the deal (which could mean a possible give
and take deal, where US allows sale of T-129 and you give them 'something' in return), or you have to 
look for solutions elsewhere, one option is waiting for AH-1Z (it is offered at all, that is), or just go and 
order WZ-10 or WZ-19 right away...the latter is particularly feasible.



> If worst comes to worst, WZ-10 will carry a strong political message for America.



...but more importantly it will carry a much stronger political message to the *world* at large, that no
NATO country can cross the line drawn by Uncle Sam.


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## Kompromat

@Gessler 

I don't think, it will go that far.

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## T-123456

Gessler said:


> ...but more importantly it will carry a much stronger political message to the *world* at large, that no
> NATO country can cross the line drawn by Uncle Sam.


I disagree,as you know we bought the HQ-9 Air Defence System from China.

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## k_arura

Oscar said:


> At this point, it seems there is a cold shoulder by both Pakistan and the US to each other it could be felt at the UN.
> So, chances are that the US might block this deal anyway without offering the AH-1Z.



That would be the "best" outcome given that Pakistan needs to focus on domestic peace and economy rather than try to be a counter to India for which there is ZERO chance of it doing without breaking itself apart.

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## SQ8

k_arura said:


> That would be the "best" outcome given that Pakistan needs to focus on domestic peace and economy rather than try to be a counter to India for which there is ZERO chance of it doing without breaking itself apart.



However, Gunships are essential in tackling these issues of internal violence. They very F-16s that India vehemently protested against have been keystone is attacking the Militants with pinpoint accuracy. So, certain leeway has to be given.

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## Gessler

T-123456 said:


> I disagree,as you know we bought the HQ-9 Air Defence System from China.



Yes, now US can also have a close look at the system. If it hasn't done that already that is.


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## T-123456

Gessler said:


> Yes, now US can also have a close look at the system. If it hasn't done that already that is.


As we did with many other weapon systems,we dont just buy and use.
The HQ-9 is the starting point to develope an even better system,so who cares if the US has had a close look at the system(of which i doubt they did).


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## -SINAN-

T-123456 said:


> What would be better for the US interests,*lose Pakistan* more and more to China or try to win them back?
> Either by offerring the AH-1Z or allowing the Turkish deal(engines).



Mate, i think it's not only problem that will US face. Now think like this. If US locks our T-129 exports by not providing the engine, wouldn't they endanger themselves for taking part in the future projects of Turkey ?

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## Gessler

T-123456 said:


> As we did with many other weapon systems,we dont just buy and use.
> The HQ-9 is the starting point to develope an even better system,so who cares if the US has had a close look at the system(of which i doubt they did).



Perhaps, but this is different. T-129 uses American engine.

By common sense, a chopper is not a chopper without it's engine.

And it cannot be licensed for sale to 3rd party without US saying the word. That's just basic
diplomatic process!

Let's see how the thing unfolds.


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## That Guy

T-123456 said:


> What political or strategic gain would Turkey have from good relations with Pakistan?
> I would like to see your view on this,cause if we look at it from a strategic or political point,i dont think that would be the best option.



Strategically, it would expand Turkey's influence and give them a big foot print in South Asia (home to at least one fifth of the world's population) and the hope is that there will be a spill over effect with Turkey's influence growing outwards from Pakistan.

Politically, it would give Turkey more leverage in the Muslim world, especially when it comes to military affairs. Pakistan is, after all, the sole Islamic nuclear power and arguably the most experienced modern Muslim army in the world. Pakistan also controls Gwadar which is set to become a major energy hub for South Asia in the future and Turkey may want to have a piece of the pie. Of course, this is the BARE MINIMUM of what could potentially happen, so one cannot blame Turkey for going this route.

The future is with South and Central Asia, not the EU and NA. Turkey recognizes this to be an inevitable fact and is hedging it's bets early to potentially profit later down the line (short term losses for long term gains).


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## T-123456

Sinan said:


> Mate, i think it's not only problem that will US face. Now think like this. If US locks our T-129 exports by not providing the engine, wouldn't they endanger themselves for taking part in the future projects of Turkey ?


I think they allready calculated that possibility(we bought the HQ-9).
You will see in the future,not many US companies involved in our projects(none).

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## -SINAN-

T-123456 said:


> I think they allready calculated that possibility(we bought the HQ-9).
> You will see in the future,not many US companies involved in our projects(none).



 And that won't be problem as they always sell sell sell, never share ToT.

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## T-123456

Gessler said:


> Perhaps, but this is different. T-129 uses American engine.
> 
> By common sense, a chopper is not a chopper without it's engine.
> 
> And it cannot be licensed for sale to 3rd party without US saying the word. That's just basic
> diplomatic process!
> 
> Let's see how the thing unfolds.


The engine is produced by a joint venture of Roll-Royce(GB)and Honeywell(USA),so calling it an American engine is wrong.
But you are right,lets wait and see what happens.


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## Echo_419

T-123456 said:


> Why so many expensive words?
> Just say:We the people have had it with working for US interests,our politicians should work for us from now on or face the consequences!
> Btw,very good no crying
> 
> 
> Do you see your country beeing used for US interests?




Yeah inmean they use every country 
But we are to big to controlled by any country


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## That Guy

Echo_419 said:


> Yeah inmean they use every country
> But we are to big to controlled by any country



No such thing as "too big", if this were true then the British Empire would never have been able to control India for so long, and before that the Mughal Empire.

It's important to remember that it takes just one man to bring an entire nation to it's knees; as such, foreign powers are always on the hunt for such a man.

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## Edevelop

No AH1-Z. The U.S on the other hand is giving Apache to India...Its not a balanced deal. My bet is on T-129 or WZ-10, which are far better in capabilities and which we could get license to produce locally.

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## Gessler

T-123456 said:


> The engine is produced by a joint venture of Roll-Royce(GB)and Honeywell(USA),so calling it an American engine is wrong.
> But you are right,lets wait and see what happens.



GB can't do nothing against US wishes.

Uncle Sam tells GB to raise a finger, they will raise it.
Uncle Sam tells GB to lower a finger, they will lower it.


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## Slayer786

There is a healthy competition going on between our two friends Turkey and China. Both are interested to sell us their top notch atate of the art weapons and this puts pressure on us as we dont want to anger one over the other. Politics is a very dirty animal. And because of that we may not decide what is best for Pakistan. 



> China and Turkey battle for sales in Pakistani arms fair
> Nov. 10, 2012
> By USMAN ANSARI
> 
> KARACHI  Chinese and Turkish companies have been fiercely vying for business at Pakistans bi-annual International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) arms fair in Karachi.
> 
> The big two
> 
> IDEAS2012 was notable, however, for the competition between Chinese and Turkish defense industries. After domestic defense firms, Chinese and Turkish businesses had far and away the largest presence, with each country booking a hall for their companies.
> 
> TAI, having previously supplied an air warfare test and training range, as well as upgrading Pakistans F-16A/B Block-15 fleet, is pushing its T-129 attack helicopter to fulfill Pakistans requirements for an AH-1F Cobra replacement.According to a TAI spokesman, a deal was nearly signed with Pakistan for 15 T-129 helicopters, but it stalled because of financial issues. Due to the operational environments of the Pakistani and Turkish militaries being very similar in topographical and climatic terms, Bilgi is confident Pakistan will see its future attack helicopter in the T-129.
> 
> But it was the Chinese that appeared to have secured the bulk of Pakistani orders in the first stages of IDEAS2012.



The only problem here is that buying from Turkey would always involve USa meddling into our affairs. But with China there is no such problems. But both are our good freinds and we should utilize the benefits that we can get from them.


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## qamar1990

T-123456 said:


> In the end,Pakistan is in a good position to get the best offer.
> T-129,WZ-10 or AH-1Z Viper all three are comparable so it doesnt really matter for now which one you get in short notice.
> For the future,there will allways be more opportunities for license/co-production.



i hope pakistan sticks with turkey.

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## W.11

Pakistan must recognise its enemies, time will eventually prove it 

stop playing friends with your true enemies

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## jupiter2007

W.11 said:


> Pakistan must recognise its enemies, time will eventually prove it
> 
> stop playing friends with your true enemies



Pakistan should start getting equipment from Non-western countries and should avoid getting any equipment from USA unless it's free or dirt cheap. No more Cobra and F-16s, focus should be on adding more Jf-17 V1 and V2 and FC-20 or J-31.

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## Viking 63

Pakistan needs to get rid of all American Arms & Equipments in its service...I strongly believe although 10,000 miles apart, these 2 country's will go at each other at some point in future !!! Pakistan needs to wake up, and prepare itself.

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## T-123456

Gessler said:


> GB can't do nothing against US wishes.
> 
> Uncle Sam tells GB to raise a finger, they will raise it.
> Uncle Sam tells GB to lower a finger, they will lower it.


Yes you are right,
Uncle Sam told GB we go to war(Syria)and what did GB do?

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## Gessler

T-123456 said:


> Yes you are right,
> Uncle Sam told GB we go to war(Syria)and what did GB do?



Neither US nor GB have as yet gone to war there. Even if that situation comes, GB cannot
participate because GB cannot afford it.



Viking 63 said:


> Pakistan needs to get rid of all American Arms & Equipments in its service...I strongly believe although 10,000 miles apart, these 2 country's will go at each other at some point in future !!! Pakistan needs to wake up, and prepare itself.



So you're going to throw away your F-16s and OHP frigate?


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## dexter

We all have fogotten that our country is facing financial problems and its time to get out of dream and live in reality!
So we can afford all or required toys if we have better economy or finances 
and i think that in future Pakistan will acquire WZ-10 b/c Chinese always help us n right time


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## khanboy007

any of these wont be achieved unless we get a stable and powerful economy....deals as such do catch eyes but its not practical (lets face it)

the deal for the US chopper seems unacceptable as they grant _India the Apache_ and _vipers to us_, its like handing a sword to a rival and you with a knife, they play their diplomacy, and if we say no they would say "we helped you, you are the one who took this for granted".....so Turkey or China it is

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## Donatello

This USA cozying up to India is all BS, it's nothing but business as usual. US-Pakistan relations might be frail, but hey, they can't leave Pakistan. That's their only leverage when it comes to Afghanistan.

Any Attempt by USA to boost Indian Indian defence would just push China to spend more. They are already years ahead, and who knows what we might see from them in 10 years.

Now, why would USA want to jeopardize it's relations with Turkey and Pakistan by scrapping this deal?


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## That Guy

cb4 said:


> No AH1-Z. The U.S on the other hand is giving Apache to India...Its not a balanced deal. My bet is on T-129 or WZ-10, which are far better in capabilities and which we could get license to produce locally.



Money is the end all be all for the US. If Pakistan made as much money as India, Pakistan would also be offered the Apache. As it is, Pakistan is being offered the AH1-Z with a 300 million dollar US loan.

This is not to say that politics don't play a role in this entire affair, but in this case, I think that this entire affair has more to do with money than politics. In fact, buying the T-129 also has a political dimension. Pakistan wants to diversify it's suppliers and dealing with the US is something that no politician in Pakistan want to do right now because of domestic pressure. Turkey has proven to be a friendly nation, and Pakistanis generally trust Turkey. Pakistan's hope is that in the future Turkey and Pakistan can go on JVs and have larger scale of economic cooperation. Turkey also wants to expand it's influence in South Asia and give it's attack heli an early start with a good resume to make it more attractive to other customers.


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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> US blocks Turkey's 'flagship sale' and risks souring relations with a NATO member as well as with Pakistan, another MNNA. Pakistan gets pisssed off - commits to WZ-10. It will be a diplomatic disaster for the US if that happens.


USA won't mind helicopters and specially after Indians rejecting F-16 they will also not consider their pressure I and Turkey can take care of USA pressure far better than us so if we want buy these helis we would get them


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## JOEY TRIBIANI

i dont think that us will interfere in this deal ....


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## Black Eagle 90

Please don't make anyone fool as Pakistan cannot afford to buy to license build an helicopter which has many things that are related to EU or US which are quite expensive; this is the current situation now.

But what can we do is the used some money to become 50-50% JV on Helicopters with China and even invite Jordan, Oman, Saudi Arabia and UAE or Algeria and Tunisia as a partner too.


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## Gentelman

I don't think US will try to interfere in this deal as they i don't think will want Pakistan turning towards China in attack helis and providing what it learnt from Cobras to China to improve its tech&#8230;&#8230;
what they can do is to provide Pakistan with Vipers to rrplace aging cobras under partial Miltray aid and 30-35% payment from Pakistan.Ir will do nothing expect pushing T-129 deal a bit away.&#8230;&#8230;
AH-1Z Viper is surely much advance than T-129 if is offered and PA will prefer it if even 18 are provided over 60-90 T-129(thanks to US lobby in PA)&#8230;&#8230;
btw US seems bzy somewhere else so PA should forget Viper they would be just approving or rejecting engine sales to Pakistan they ain't intrested in any miltary deal with Pakistan.


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## tarrar

T-123456 said:


> In the end,Pakistan is in a good position to get the best offer.
> T-129,WZ-10 or *AH-1Z* Viper all three are comparable so it doesnt really matter for now which one you get in short notice.
> For the future,there will allways be more opportunities for license/co-production.



US or any other European country will not sell Military hardware to Pakistan. So Pakistans best options are Turkey & China ONLY & I would say Pakistan should stick with them rather than looking towards those who will not give anything to Pakistan.



JOEY TRIBIANI said:


> i dont think that us will interfere in this deal ....



They will.

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## Black Eagle 90

Turkey is pushing towards S.Korea not for Pak.


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## -SINAN-

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Turkey is pushing towards S.Korea not for Pak.



Korean Tender already decided. T-129 lost to Apache at the final stage.


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## Viking 63

to Gessler !!!,
yes ,we have throw away our F-16 and OHP both prone to sactions !! but we have an armed forces which does not learn its leasons !! sorry state of affairs.

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## Rafi

Apparently APK and NS are very keen on rapping this up, NS also seemed to be very impressed with the demo. Also according to my info, we will be procuring the Chinese one also, from now on all things procured will have home grown or Chinese equivalents.

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## Rafi

Erdogan is also pushing this very hard, and he has a lot of juice, expect more Pak, Turkey, China tie ups in the future.

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## That Guy

tarrar said:


> *US or any other European country will not sell Military hardware to Pakistan.* So Pakistan&#8217;s best options are *Turkey & China ONLY* & I would say Pakistan should stick with them rather than looking towards those who will not give anything to Pakistan.
> 
> *They will.*



First of all, the US has just offered Pakistan a sale of AH-1Z attack copters as a replacement for Pakistan's aging cobra fleet with $300 million dollar in "military aid" to buy them. EU nations have tried to sell Pakistan military hardware, for example Germany tried to sell subs to Pakistan, but financial constraints have gotten in the way; So it's not for the lack of trying, it's a money issue.

Turkey and China are good partners, but they're not Pakistan's only option. South Africa and Brazil have always offered their assistance in military matters, Serbia and Pakistan have recently (and surprisingly quietly) increased defence cooperation (LAZAR2), and a future potential supplier could very well be Russia whom Pakistan has been aggressively trying to bring into the Pakistani camp and out of India's camp (with decent success).

Here, check this out, it's pretty interesting.

http://balder.prio.no/armsglobe2/index.php


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## Liquidmetal

Rafi said:


> Apparently APK and NS are very keen on rapping this up, NS also seemed to be very impressed with the demo. Also according to my info, we will be procuring the Chinese one also, from now on all things procured will have home grown or Chinese equivalents.



I hope so, that would be awesome a couple of squadrons of each, Western maturity and Eastern guarantees. Both brilliant additions and then send those imposters of Muslims the TTP to hell.


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## cabatli_53

That Guy said:


> First of all, the US has just offered Pakistan a sale of AH-1Z attack copters as a replacement for Pakistan's aging cobra fleet with $300 million dollar in "military aid" to buy them. EU nations have tried to sell Pakistan military hardware, for example Germany tried to sell subs to Pakistan, but financial constraints have gotten in the way; So it's not for the lack of trying, it's a money issue.
> 
> Turkey and China are good partners, but they're not Pakistan's only option. South Africa and Brazil have always offered their assistance in military matters, Serbia and Pakistan have recently (and surprisingly quietly) increased defence cooperation (LAZAR2), and a future potential supplier could very well be Russia whom Pakistan has been aggressively trying to bring into the Pakistani camp and out of India's camp (with decent success).
> 
> Here, check this out, it's pretty interesting.
> 
> Mapping Arms Data - the trade in small arms and their ammunition, 1992-2011





I think Competing with countries like Serbia, Brazil, S. Africa in any field will just be an evidence of How serious and strong defence industry Turkey has because Noone of mentioned countries have a big variety of defence products to offer against Turkey but When USA, Europe and Russia put their noses into competition, Everything suddenly become more difficult than ever. We beated our Western friends in Malaysian 8x8 tender but USA beated us in S. Korean attack helo tender. We beated our Western friends in UAE 2,75inch missile program as well....etc

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## Bilal.

Rafi said:


> Erdogan is also pushing this very hard, and he has a lot of juice, expect more Pak, Turkey, China tie ups in the future.



If it's Erdogan who is pushing for it then it means we are not just talking about an attack helo but a lot deeper relationship that may turn into a formal or informal alliance in the future.

Considering that we should go with our Turkish brothers although I have been more leaning towards WZ-10 in the past.

The way things are, united we stand divided we fall.


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## That Guy

cabatli_53 said:


> I think Competing with countries like Serbia, Brazil, S. Africa in any field will just be an evidence of How serious and strong defence industry Turkey has because Noone of mentioned countries have a big variety of defence products to offer against Turkey but When USA, Europe and Russia put their noses into competition, Everything suddenly become more difficult than ever. We beated our Western friends in Malaysian 8x8 tender but USA beated us in S. Korean attack helo tender. We beated our Western friends in UAE 2,75inch missile program as well....etc



I don't think Turkey will have to worry about competing against other nations in Pakistan (except against China). Pakistan has been diversifying it's suppliers by buying directly from the source, the T-129 is a perfect example of this.


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## k_arura

Oscar

I have a very basic question. If Pakistan is really really serious about tackling the militants why doesn't it plan joint operations with the US on the other side in a pincer movement and crush them. The US seems to think Paks are more interested in getting aid/weapons etc. rather than simply get rid of the terrorists. 

To be frank the F-16's used in the FATA resion causes immense collateral damage to which not as much coverage as opposed to drones whose coverage in incessant. In fact according to reports FATA people actually welcome(d) drones.

This casts aspersions on Pakistan's real motives in both US and India and makes both extremely wary of Pak.


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## Bilal.

@above, say that Pakistan wants it for defence against India? What's there to be wary of? Are you saying india can impose a virtual arms embargo on us or should we get approval of each arms deal from India before proceeding?

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## Tameem

k_arura said:


> Oscar
> 
> I have a very basic question. If Pakistan is really really serious about tackling the militants why doesn't it plan joint operations with the US on the other side in a pincer movement and crush them. The US seems to think Paks are more interested in getting aid/weapons etc. rather than simply get rid of the terrorists.
> 
> To be frank the F-16's used in the FATA resion causes immense collateral damage to which not as much coverage as opposed to drones whose coverage in incessant. In fact according to reports FATA people actually welcome(d) drones.
> 
> This casts aspersions on Pakistan's real motives in both US and India and makes both extremely wary of Pak.


 @k_arura

I have a very basic question too, If USA is really really serious about tackling the militants and welfare of the whole region (south & central asia) why doesn't it tries wholeheartedly to resolve the differences between its friends (India, Pakistan, China) so they don't need to hedge anything against each other and join hands with the US simultaneously to crush terrorists. The Paks seems to think US are more interested only to his sole vested intrests rather than the region or its people.

To be frank, US is too greedy.....he want to extract everything from all these countries at the expense of all of them simultaneously, This casts shadows on US real motives in Paks, India & China and makes them extremely wary of US, that ends up neither of them cease to be US Strategic friends anymore/anytime.

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## nomi007

hahahaha

now talk with china


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## TOPGUN

In the in-term yes I do think the Turkish deal will be blocked.. and in the end PA will end up with AH 1Z Viper, perhaps with a deal they will not refuse and can't. The two heli's that PA is most interested in is the T-129 and or the AH 1Z Viper in all due respect the Chinese heli is when both deals are off the table and no other choice is left given what PA needs simply.

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## That Guy

TOPGUN said:


> In the in-term yes I do think the Turkish deal will be blocked.. and in the end PA will end up with AH 1Z Viper, perhaps with a deal they will not refuse and can't. The two heli's that PA is most interested in is the T-129 and or the AH 1Z Viper in all due respect the Chinese heli is when both deals are off the table and no other choice is left given what PA needs simply.



I disagree.

The US has no reason to block the deal in any shape of form, and it certainly won't do anything to **** of Turkey, one of it's closest NATO allies, who are relying on this deal with Pakistan to grow the T-129's market visibility.

Pakistan has no real interest in the AH-1Z besides the fact that it would essentially come with a $300 million "military aid", but as Mr. Cloughley correctly said and I quote



> &#8220;I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.&#8221;
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-but-us-could-scupper-deal.html#ixzz2gbxsHKIA



This is also not to mention that Pakistani future sanction concerns, which Turkey has proven in the past that it is willing to ignore...etc etc etc.

With the T-129, Pakistan would be getting local production and potential partial ToTs, along with a potential of 3 FREE T-129s and the others on major discount. That's not something that Pakistan will throw away.


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## Inception-06

nobody trust the US muahaha


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## tarrar

That Guy said:


> First of all, the US has just offered Pakistan a sale of AH-1Z attack copters as a replacement for Pakistan's aging cobra fleet with $300 million dollar in "military aid" to buy them. EU nations have tried to sell Pakistan military hardware, for example Germany tried to sell subs to Pakistan, but financial constraints have gotten in the way; So it's not for the lack of trying, it's a money issue.
> 
> Turkey and China are good partners, but they're not Pakistan's only option. South Africa and Brazil have always offered their assistance in military matters, Serbia and Pakistan have recently (and surprisingly quietly) increased defence cooperation (LAZAR2), and a future potential supplier could very well be Russia whom Pakistan has been aggressively trying to bring into the Pakistani camp and out of India's camp (with decent success).
> 
> Here, check this out, it's pretty interesting.
> 
> Mapping Arms Data - the trade in small arms and their ammunition, 1992-2011



Lets hope its all true. Whatever happens who ever wins the contract, Pakistan needs Military hardware.

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## Viper0011.

k_arura said:


> Oscar
> 
> I have a very basic question. If Pakistan is really really serious about tackling the militants why doesn't it plan joint operations with the US on the other side in a pincer movement and crush them. The US seems to think Paks are more interested in getting aid/weapons etc. rather than simply get rid of the terrorists.
> 
> To be frank the F-16's used in the FATA resion causes immense collateral damage to which not as much coverage as opposed to drones whose coverage in incessant. In fact according to reports FATA people actually welcome(d) drones.
> 
> This casts aspersions on Pakistan's real motives in both US and India and makes both extremely wary of Pak.



I can just tell by the way you write that you are from India. You can't mix 'the US' and India in the same sentence as if they were buddies. You guys are and will always be about 3 decades away. India is ALWAYS wary of Pak. Nothing new about it. The US however, is wary on occasions when it feels that the PA isn't cooperating the way they'd like to. The US interest in this region is a LOT different than the Indian interest in Pakistan. You guys are giving money to different Taliban fractions to bomb your neighbor. But the US wants a peaceful exit and a better Afghanistan after it leaves. And for that, it wants the ISI and the PA to not interfere in the Afghan regime. But again, the Indian interests are VERY different and self serving than the US interest who just wants to see a stable Afghanistan and Pakistan for that matter !


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## Black Eagle 90

Sinan said:


> Korean Tender already decided. T-129 lost to Apache at the final stage.



So don't bother Pakistanis as they are not going to but it all.


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## -SINAN-

Black Eagle 90 said:


> So don't bother Pakistanis as they are not going to but it all.



Are you a Pakistani Military official ?


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## k_arura

India does not want any other country to meddle in its affairs or help it solve its problems with Pak and China. Whenever you get a third party involved in "solving" a problem their own interests come to the fore. Read the story in this link under "The Foolish Cats and the Cunning Monkey"

The Story of Clever Fox and other Stories for Children

Let me also reproduce below:

Once, a cat saw a piece of bread on the road. But by the time it could reach it, another cat saw it and both pounced upon it. The cats started fighting.
After sometime, the first cat suggested that they could divide the bread into two pieces. The other cat agreed. But who would divide the piece of bread? They both doubted each other.
Meanwhile, a monkey came there. The cats asked the monkey to divide the bread into two equal halves.
The monkey was very cunning. He made two pieces of the bread and then he checked their size. Finding one bigger than the other, he ate a bit from the bigger piece. Then he noticed that the other piece was bigger and ate a bit from that.
He carried on like this for some time and eventually, he ate up both the pieces, leaving the cats with nothing.


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## k_arura

orangzaib said:


> I can just tell by the way you write that you are from India. You can't mix 'the US' and India in the same sentence as if they were buddies. You guys are and will always be about 3 decades away. India is ALWAYS wary of Pak. Nothing new about it. The US however, is wary on occasions when it feels that the PA isn't cooperating the way they'd like to. The US interest in this region is a LOT different than the Indian interest in Pakistan. You guys are giving money to different Taliban fractions to bomb your neighbor. But the US wants a peaceful exit and a better Afghanistan after it leaves. And for that, it wants the ISI and the PA to not interfere in the Afghan regime. But again, the Indian interests are VERY different and self serving than the US interest who just wants to see a stable Afghanistan and Pakistan for that matter !



Thats what YOU think. Very convenient. The following might "open" your eyes:


The Destabilization of Pakistan | Global Research

> Military scholar Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters writing in the June 2006 issue of The Armed Forces Journal, suggests, in no uncertain terms that Pakistan should be broken up, leading to the formation of a separate country: &#8220;Greater Balochistan&#8221; or &#8220;Free Balochistan&#8221; (see Map below). The latter would incorporate the Pakistani and Iranian Baloch provinces into a single political entity.


FYI, Ralph is NO Indian. But certainly a friend of India. Looks like you are more interested in my origins than in the arguments I present. Example of a "mindless" mind, if you get my drift pal!


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## SQ8

k_arura said:


> Oscar
> 
> I have a very basic question. If Pakistan is really really serious about tackling the militants why doesn't it plan joint operations with the US on the other side in a pincer movement and crush them. The US seems to think Paks are more interested in getting aid/weapons etc. rather than simply get rid of the terrorists.
> 
> To be frank the F-16's used in the FATA resion causes immense collateral damage to which not as much coverage as opposed to drones whose coverage in incessant. In fact according to reports FATA people actually welcome(d) drones.
> 
> This casts aspersions on Pakistan's real motives in both US and India and makes both extremely wary of Pak.



Its quite simply, the US is willing to attack the Afghan Taliban but is selective on the Pakistani Militant groups. Pakistan is willing to attack all Pakistani militants but is selective on the Afghan militant groups.


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## That Guy

k_arura said:


> Thats what YOU think. Very convenient. The following might "open" your eyes:
> 
> 
> The Destabilization of Pakistan | Global Research
> 
> > Military scholar Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters writing in the June 2006 issue of The Armed Forces Journal, suggests, in no uncertain terms that Pakistan should be broken up, leading to the formation of a separate country: &#8220;Greater Balochistan&#8221; or &#8220;Free Balochistan&#8221; (see Map below). The latter would incorporate the Pakistani and Iranian Baloch provinces into a single political entity.
> 
> 
> FYI, Ralph is NO Indian. But certainly a friend of India. Looks like you are more interested in my origins than in the arguments I present. Example of a "mindless" mind, if you get my drift pal!



There is a major flaw with this. It assumes that violence would subside by breaking up and recreating international borders of the middle east and Pakistan. The reality is that violence will continue, militants and extremists will find new excuses.

By the way, don't use global research as a source, it's a known anti-immigration conservative, conspiricy theory website in Canada. No sane person in Canada takes this website seriously.

IN FACT, read this. it's from the same article and it proves my point;



> Without evidence, quoting Pakistan government sources, the Western media in chorus has highlighted the role of Al-Qaeda, while also focusing on the the possible involvement of the ISI.
> 
> What these interpretations do not mention is that the ISI continues to play a key role in overseeing Al Qaeda on *behalf of US intelligence*. The press reports fail to mention two important and well documented facts:
> 
> 1) *the ISI maintains close ties to the CIA. The ISI is virtually an appendage of the CIA.*
> 
> 2) *Al Qaeda is a creation of the CIA. The ISI provides covert support to Al Qaeda, acting on behalf of US intelligence.*
> 
> The alleged involvement of either Al Qaeda and/or the ISI would suggest that US intelligence was cognizant and/or implicated in the assassination plot.



USE BETTER SOURCES NEXT TIME.

Also, stick to the topic please. This is not the thread to talk about this particular topic.

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## k_arura

So both are two timing each other. More so Pak though. Pak never seemed serious about NOT wanting to maintain Haqqani's as a strategic asset. US' action is more a reaction.

Haqqani Network | Institute for the Study of War

> Pakistan Connection



Haqqani&#8217;s connection with the ISI dates back to the times of the Soviet jihad. According to U.S. Special Envoy and Ambassador to Afghanistan (1989-1992), Peter Tomsen, the ISI has maintained its Jihad era ties with Haqqani.15 Right after the U.S. invasion in October 2001, Haqqani was invited to Islamabad for talks about a post-Taliban government.16 In a transcript passed to Mike McConnell, the Director of National Intelligence in May 2008, *Pakistan&#8217;s army chief General Ashfaq Kayani was heard referring to Haqqani as &#8220;a strategic asset.*&#8221;17 A top ISI official was reported to have held talks with Sirajuddin Haqqani, one of Jalaluddin&#8217;s sons who has replaced him as the leader of the movement due to his father&#8217;s ill-health, in Miranshah of North Waziristan in early March 2009.18 In a prisoner exchange with Pakistani Taliban led by Baitullah Mehsud, the Pakistani government released three family members of the Haqqani family in November 2007 &#8211; Haqqani&#8217;s brother Khalil Ahmad, son Dr. Fazl-i-Haqqani and brother-in-law Ghazi Khan.19 Haqqani is said to have mediated peace deals between the Pakistani government and Waziri and Mehsudi commanders of the Pakistani Taliban in North and South Waziristan.20


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## SQ8

k_arura said:


> So both are two timing each other. More so Pak though. Pak never seemed serious about NOT wanting to maintain Haqqani's as a strategic asset. US' action is more a reaction.



In either case this is not the topic for it so no further posts on this will be allowed. 

Please stick to the T-129.


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## k_arura

I was on topic until you made the point about US being friend of Pak or not as unfriendly. You have NO idea how UNFRIENDLY US is about to get with Pak after drawdown from Afghanistan when Pak loses relevance from a supply route POV.

Also don't live in the past. The link was more a link to Ralph Peters for which I could have used another link, say 

Balochistan: U.S. Prepares Yugoslav Model For Pakistan And Iran | Stop NATO...Opposition to global militarism

> Ralph Peters in his testimony supported the idea of an independent Balochistan as per his article &#8220;Blood Borders&#8221; published in the *Armed Forces Journal in June 2006* with a map of &#8220;Free Balochistan&#8221; (comprising the Balochistan provinces in Pakistan and Iran and parts of Afghanistan).

Now about violence. Sure in the short to medium term violence will flare up but in the long run it will tend to become more peaceful as Pak would be defanged of its mischief making capabilities. Punjab will be landlocked. Keep nuclear weapons or be linked to the world! Balochistan and Sindh and even KPK are more moderate and secular.



Oscar said:


> In either case this is not the topic for it so no further posts on this will be allowed.
> 
> Please stick to the T-129.



Thats fine by me. Sticking to a topic is never a bad idea!


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## That Guy

k_arura said:


> I was on topic until you made the point about US being friend of Pak or not as unfriendly. * You have NO idea how UNFRIENDLY US is about to get with Pak after drawdown from Afghanistan when Pak loses relevance from a supply route POV.*
> 
> Also don't live in the past. The link was more a link to Ralph Peters for which I could have used another link, say
> 
> Balochistan: U.S. Prepares Yugoslav Model For Pakistan And Iran | Stop NATO...Opposition to global militarism
> 
> > Ralph Peters in his testimony supported the idea of an independent Balochistan as per his article &#8220;Blood Borders&#8221; published in the *Armed Forces Journal in June 2006* with a map of &#8220;Free Balochistan&#8221; (comprising the Balochistan provinces in Pakistan and Iran and parts of Afghanistan).
> 
> Now about violence. Sure in the short to medium term violence will flare up but in the long run it will tend to become more peaceful as Pak would be defanged of its mischief making capabilities. Punjab will be landlocked. Keep nuclear weapons or be linked to the world! Balochistan and Sindh and even KPK are more moderate and secular.
> 
> Thats fine by me. Sticking to a topic is never a bad idea!



Pakistan knows this full well, it's experienced this before.

Now you're using wordpress as a source. Just stop dude, stick to topic.


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## Thorough Pro

No offence to Turkish brothers, but in my opinion Pakistan should learn from the past and not buy any equipment which might compromise its operational capabilities, specialty in the light of US-India romance these days.

Best course of action would be to go for Chinese WZ-10, or a combo of Chinese hardware+ Turkish avionics/software etc.


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## Viper0011.

k_arura said:


> Thats what YOU think. Very convenient. The following might "open" your eyes:
> > Military scholar Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters writing in the June 2006 issue of The Armed Forces Journal, suggests, in no uncertain terms that Pakistan should be broken up, leading to the formation of a separate country: Greater Balochistan or Free Balochistan (see Map below).
> 
> Looks like you are more interested in my origins than in the arguments I present. Example of a "mindless" mind, if you get my drift pal!



LOL, I don't feel no one's drift.....definitely not someone acting gay on here. Mindless is a perception of a mindless mind.....who said that? Wait, it was me! HA! You feel me bra?

As far as the little article you posted, it has no value. There are a TON of people in almost every Western and many Eastern militaries who'd love to see Pakistan or another country for that matter.....broken up. Doesn't mean jack. The little article isn't a stated policy of the US government my friend. So PLEASE. Stop acting like a child by posting crap that has no meaning.

If the US wanted to break Pakistan or ANY country for that matter....it would've happened a long time ago. The fact is, the US doesn't consider Pakistan an enemy. It has a 70 year old relationship with Pakistan. Long before India shaped its relations with the US for sure. However, I think everyone in the US agrees that Pakistan is a troubled country. The problem with the jihadis / talibans, etc is becoming more of an issue for the Pakistanis than anyone else. So for the sake of the Pakistan....the Pakistanis need to change their mentality and starts calling a Spade....Spade. You can't ignore what these barbaric terrorists are doing to the ordinary Pakistanis every day!!!! And the US is with the Pakistanis if they want to use our help in fighting extremism. Killing innocent civilians anywhere in the world is wrong and the US supports any efforts by Pakistan to combat terrorism. So don't try to portray the US as the bad guy. The US interests is to see a better, safer and trouble free Pakistan and of course, its neighbors also.

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## Black Eagle 90

Aeronaut said:


> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says Pakistan and Jordan are already Evaluating T-129 ATAK. *
> 
> News source:
> 
> DATE:01/10/09
> SOURCE:Flight International
> ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> By Luca Peruzzi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Programme officials from the ATAK development team have provided further details of Turkey's T129 attack helicopter programme, as its first prototype has completed its debut flight.
> 
> Conducted at AgustaWestland's Vergiate facility in Italy on 28 September, the milestone event involved aircraft P1, the first of five prototypes to be produced under the Turkish Aerospace Industries-led programme.
> 
> Powered by LHTEC T800A-4 engines, the aircraft is one of three T129s to be built in a basic configuration, with the others to enter final assembly at Vergiate in March and July 2010, respectively.
> 
> Kits for the programme's two so-called Turkey Unique Configuration prototypes will be delivered to TAI in April and August 2010. These production-standard airframes will undergo assembly, integration, test and trials in Turkey.
> 
> Critical design reviews for both aircraft versions will be concluded in the second quarter of next year, and all five prototypes should fly by mid-2011. "The joint programme is on time, cost and scheduled programme achievements," says AgustaWestland chief executive Giuseppe Orsi.
> 
> Turkey has ordered 50 production T129s and has options on another 41. The aircraft will be equipped with Turkish-made systems including electronics, forward-looking infrared sensor, cockpit avionics and mission computer from Aselsan, and weapon systems from Roketsan.
> 
> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says the first T129 ATAK will be handed over to the Turkish armed forces in the third quarter of 2013. Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.*
> 
> Source link:ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> Turkey Presses Ahead with its Attack Helicopter Project - The Jamestown Foundation
> 
> " The helicopter program is seen as one of the flagship projects for Turkey's flourishing defense industry, as it will involve not only the transfer of advanced technology, but also the integration of various domestically developed weapons and communications systems. Moreover, since Turkey's TAI will have the exclusive rights to market and sell the final product worldwide, the project is particularly attractive for Turkey. Through this and other ambitious national weapons programs, it aims to emerge as a major player in the global arms industry. *Pakistan, Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have reportedly expressed their interest in purchasing the T-129 (Anadolu Ajansi, September 25)*. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My photoshop Image for you guys depicting our Next generation Attack Helicopter Inshallah in Pakistan colors and this Image is dedicated to my Turkish Brother Cabatli 53 for his Great help and dedication.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards:
> 
> Black Blood.



The people are talking that Muslim countries are looking to buy T-129 from Turkey might be joke as Pakistan and Jordan will not look into it especially Pakistan.

I wish that Pakistan along with Jordan, Libya and Algeria would going to join in with Chinese on Attack as well as Transport helicopter programs very soon.


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## TOPGUN

That Guy said:


> I disagree.
> 
> The US has no reason to block the deal in any shape of form, and it certainly won't do anything to **** of Turkey, one of it's closest NATO allies, who are relying on this deal with Pakistan to grow the T-129's market visibility.
> 
> Pakistan has no real interest in the AH-1Z besides the fact that it would essentially come with a $300 million "military aid", but as Mr. Cloughley correctly said and I quote
> 
> 
> 
> This is also not to mention that Pakistani future sanction concerns, which Turkey has proven in the past that it is willing to ignore...etc etc etc.
> 
> With the T-129, Pakistan would be getting local production and potential partial ToTs, along with a potential of 3 FREE T-129s and the others on major discount. That's not something that Pakistan will throw away.



I respect your thoughts however, you can also disagree all you want but this is what it feels like might happen anyhow we shall just have to see it's what I have heard first hand from some folks in PA aviation. You see I would love for us to get the Turkish heli however it carries American parts .. and if uncle sam is going to allow a product with US parts then they want to handle it them selves with strings rather a third party doing it simply !! plus PA has many years of hands on experience with the cobras and has all the infrastructure to support further cobras in the future. These deals at times are just cover up's to cover the reality which is behind the scenes trust me anyhow may the best outcome come out for PA.

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## That Guy

TOPGUN said:


> I respect your thoughts however, you can also disagree all you want but this is what it feels like might happen anyhow we shall just have to see it's what I have heard first hand from some folks in PA aviation. You see I would love for us to get the Turkish heli however it carries American parts .. and if uncle sam is going to allow a product with US parts then they want to handle it them selves with strings rather a third party doing it simply !! plus PA has many years of hands on experience with the cobras and has all the infrastructure to support further cobras in the future. These deals at times are just cover up's to cover the reality which is behind the scenes trust me anyhow may the best outcome come out for PA.



Fair enough. I clearly don't see this the way you do, but perhaps I'm wrong and you're right. Let's see what happens and who's right. Maybe we're both wrong and in a surprise move we find out that Pakistan has been developing Jedi lightsabers and X-wing star fighters and Pakistan is going to become a new galactic power.

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## Gentelman

I guess we should stop comparing WZ-10 with T-129.
Their roles are different and WZ-10 is of different class heli.
WZ-10 can carry 16 anti tank while T-129 can carry 8.
WZ-10 is heavy attack heli and PA for heavy attack helicopters was interested in Mil-24 & AH-1 VIPER&#8230;&#8230;


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## Casus Belli



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## fatman17

*Turkey Finally Lands Its Attack Helicopters*


Oct 09, 2013 14:00 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff 
Latest update [?]

T129 ATAK

Sept 16/13: Pakistan. Pakistan is running short on AH-1Fs, in part because the money to maintain them has been funneled into various private pockets. A long-term improvement in corruption is unlikely under current leadership, and the Pakistani economy is weak, but the country needs attack helicopters.

Pakistan reportedly expressed interest in the T129 several years ago (q.v. Oct 1/09), but those talks have reportedly gained force. Any breakthrough would involve a Memorandum of Understanding, which would allow Pakistani officials and PAC engineers to discuss the mechanics and logistics of joint production.

Part of those mechanics may involve export clearance from the USA, as the T129&#8242;s LHTEC 800 engines are a joint product of Rolls Royce and Honeywell. The USA could use delays or even refusal as an underhanded tactic, and they do have a record of behaving this way in other competitions. On the other hand, angering both Turkey and Pakistan might be a higher diplomatic price than they&#8217;re prepared to pay, just to push Bell Helicopter&#8217;s AH-1Z. Rather than using export denial, the USA may have a better lever via military aid financing, which could be used to buy made-in-America AH-1Zs, but not T129s. If Turkey can offer good financing terms of its own, on the other hand, local anti-American sentiment and Turkey&#8217;s perceived political reliability may offer them some levers, too. Sources: Pakistan&#8217;s The National, &#8220;Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards&#8221; | Defense News, &#8220;Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal&#8221; | iHLS, &#8220;Turkey Angers the U.S. by Offering Helicopters to Pakistan&#8221;.

T129 ATAK
Turkey has been looking to modernize its attack helicopter fleet since the mid-1990s, but the process has mostly served as an object lesson in how not to buy defense equipment. This competition faced many difficulties; after numerous snafus, technology transfer and production issues, and canceled competitions, all 3 invited American manufacturers had abandoned the competition entirely.

Even the &#8220;final&#8221; round seemed imperiled, following reports of the Turkish military&#8217;s deep dissatisfaction with the choices; nevertheless, the competition survived long enough to pick a winner, and sign contracts with AgustaWestland. The 12-year program can move forward at last. But Turkey didn&#8217;t just buy helicopters &#8211; they bought the A129 model, lock, stock, and rotor.

Program and Finalists
Beginning With An Own Goal in Mind

Rooivalk & Gripen
At present, Turkey&#8217;s attack helicopter fleet is made of its 6 remaining AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopters, and about 20-23 earlier model AH-1 Cobras. The earlier model Cobras lack some useful modern capabilities. Worse, low numbers and age-related availability issues are straining the fleet&#8217;s capacity, making operations in Turkey and Iraq&#8217;s Kurdish regions more difficult.

The new AH-1Z had come out on top in a previous replacement competition, but 4 years of negotiations with Bell Helicopter to jointly produce the AH-1Z Super Cobra failed in 2004. Major price differences and licensing demands sank the deal. 

The Turkish SSM responded by opening a fresh international competition in February 2005, but did so in a way that magnified the problems again rather than solving them. They were immediately confronted by serious objections from global manufacturers, which forced the SSM to change the RFP in May 2005. Even then, Bell Helicopter and Boeing looked at Turkish demands, and dropped out.

Defense Minister Gonul made the Turkish perspective clear long ago when he noted that &#8220;the goal is to co-produce the helicopters, not to buy them off the shelf.&#8221; The Houston Chronicle reported that bidding rules also included full access to the aircraft&#8217;s specific software codes, and a written guarantee from the provider&#8217;s government that there would be no political obstacles to Turkish exports of the licensed helicopters.

The Program

A129 pair
In July 2006, Turkish Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul announced that Turkey would continue talks with Denel of South Africa (AH-2A Rooivalk ) and Agusta Aerospace of Italy (A129 International ) for Turkey&#8217;s Land Forces Command&#8217;s Tactical Reconnaissance & Attack Helicopter (ATAK) Project. The Franco-German EADS Eurocopter (Tiger ) and Kamov of Russia (Ka-50-2 Erdogan, with IAI) were eliminated. 

Neither of the finalists had been exported before, and at the time, they were competing for co-production of 30 helicopters and options for 20 more. That projected $1.6 billion contract was still well short of the 91 attack helicopters originally called for when the program began, but it was progress. In the end, Turkey found a way to bridge the gap. A contract was signed in September 2007 for 51 &#8220;T129 ATAK&#8221; helicopters from AgustaWestland, plus another 41 on option under the same terms. Some of those options were exercised in 2010, when Turkey ordered 9 &#8220;basic model&#8221; T129s to reinforce its dwindling attack helicopter fleet.

Turkish Aerospace Industries is the T129&#8242;s prime contractor. Aselsan and AgustaWestland will be the subcontractors, under a collaboration agreement in which TAI shares ownership of intellectual property rights for the new A129 configuration with AgustaWestland. TAI will also become the sole source for the production of the whole fuselage, including final assembly and flight operations, and will be responsible for marketing the &#8220;T-129 attack helicopters&#8221; to the world.

As of September 2013, export inquiries have reportedly been received from Jordan and Pakistan, and there are reports that Malaysia may be interested. The T129 lost a public competition in South Korea to Boeing&#8217;s AH-64E Apache Guardian.

T129: The Winner

A129-I improvements
The A129 Mangusta (trans. &#8220;Mongoose&#8221 entered service with the Italian Army in 1989; AgustaWestland offered it as a base for the Franco-German Tiger partnership, but cooperation was declined in favor of a Franco-German R&D program. The current Italian service inventory is 60 machines, 15 of which are the more modern A129 International/AW129 standard with uprated engines (LHTEC replaced earlier Rolls Royce Gem) and rotors (5-bladed vs. 4), plus new weapons, avionics, and defensive systems. The other 45 Italian A129 CBT helicopters received rotor, transmission, weapon, defensive, and electronics upgrades under a multi-year contract signed in 2002.

This A129 family is notable for their low frontal profile, and offer a good mix of surveillance, gun and missile capabilities. A mast-mounted sight offers the potential for further improvements, but the type had not been successful in export competitions before the 2007 Turkish order. The A129 has seen service with Italian forces in Afghanistan, Angola, Macedonia, Somalia, and Iraq.
Like the A129I, the Turkish T129 is powered by 2 Rolls Royce/ Honeywell LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshafts, each generating 1,361 shp. They can drive the helicopter to speeds of 269 kph/ 145 kts, and allow hover out of ground effect to 10,000 feet. Endurance is about 3 hours, with a maximum range of 561 km/ 303 nm.

The Turkish ASELFLIR 300T will replace the AW129&#8242;s Honeywell surveillance and targeting systems. The helicopter always has its 3-barreled 20mm chin turret, and certified weapons for its 4 side pylons include its 12.7mm machine gun pods, 70mm unguided Hydra and guided Cirit rockets, anti-tank missiles (TOW, Spike-ER, Hellfire), and Air-to-Air Missiles (Stinger, Mistral). Turkey is also working to develop and then certify its own IIR-guided UMTAS/LRAT anti-tank missile for the T129. 

Contracts & Key Events
2013
Possible interest in Brazil, Pakistan; Loss in South Korea.

T129 ATAK
Sept 16/13: Pakistan. Pakistan is running short on AH-1Fs, in part because the money to maintain them has been funneled into various private pockets. A long-term improvement in corruption is unlikely under current leadership, and the Pakistani economy is weak, but the country needs attack helicopters.

Pakistan reportedly expressed interest in the T129 several years ago (q.v. Oct 1/09), but those talks have reportedly gained force. Any breakthrough would involve a Memorandum of Understanding, which would allow Pakistani officials and PAC engineers to discuss the mechanics and logistics of joint production.

Part of those mechanics may involve export clearance from the USA, as the T129&#8242;s LHTEC 800 engines are a joint product of Rolls Royce and Honeywell. The USA could use delays or even refusal as an underhanded tactic, and they do have a record of behaving this way in other competitions. On the other hand, angering both Turkey and Pakistan might be a higher diplomatic price than they&#8217;re prepared to pay, just to push Bell Helicopter&#8217;s AH-1Z. Rather than using export denial, the USA may have a better lever via military aid financing, which could be used to buy made-in-America AH-1Zs, but not T129s. If Turkey can offer good financing terms of its own, on the other hand, local anti-American sentiment and Turkey&#8217;s perceived political reliability may offer them some levers, too. Sources: Pakistan&#8217;s The National, &#8220;Pak-Turkish pact on combat copters on cards&#8221; | Defense News, &#8220;Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal&#8221; | iHLS, &#8220;Turkey Angers the U.S. by Offering Helicopters to Pakistan&#8221;.

Aug 22/13: Brazil. Turkey and Brazil are forming a number of working groups on defense cooperation. Their release specifically mentions that the aeronautics working group will be studying the assembly of Turkish helicopters in Brazil. The T129 is the only candidate that fits. Note that Brazil already fields a handful of Russian Mi-35M attack helicopters, with a limited secondary capability as transports. On the other hand, they could definitely use more armed helicopters, and local production appeals. AgustaWestland just expanded its Brazilian facilities in Sao Paulo, with enough space to add a production line.

The flip side is that Turkey would be studying the assembly of Brazilian aircraft in Turkey. Embraer offers the Super Tucano, a number of military aircraft based on their ERJ 145 regional jetliner, and the KC-390 medium transport. Turkey is committed to buy 10 A400M medium transports, but they have 32 C160 and C-130 medium transports to replace, so a future KC-390 buy is possible. Other possibilities are more restricted, as Turkey already has projects or orders in those categories: KAI&#8217;s KT-1 for training, Boeing&#8217;s E-737 AWACS for aerial surveillance, and Airbus ATR-72s and CN-235s for maritime patrol. Sources: Brazil MdD [in Portuguese] | AgustaWestland Aug 14/13 release.

April 17/13: South Korea loss. South Korea announces that the AH-64E Apache Guardian has beaten the AH-1Z Viper and T129 ATAK helicopters for a 1.8 trillion won ($1.6 billion), 36-machine order. The attack helicopter decision had been due in October 2012, but was put on hold until after the elections. The ROK hopes to have the helicopters between 2016 and 2018.

The AH-1Z would have represented continuity with the ROK&#8217;s existing AH-1S fleet, and a September 2012 DSCA export request was already approved. The T129 would have been a reciprocal deal with a major arms export customer (vid. Aug 9/10, but Turkey has also bought South Korea trainers, tanks & artillery). A DAPA official is quoted as saying that the AH-64E&#8217;s superior target acquisition capability, power, and weapons load gave it the edge, and so South Korea will begin the acquisition process. The Apache is certainly much more heavily armored than its counterparts, and its combination of modernized optics and MMW radar or UAV control does give it an edge in target acquisition. Sources: Korea Herald, &#8220;Seoul to purchase 36 Apache helicopters&#8221; | Reuters, &#8220;South Korea to buy $1.6 billion worth of Boeing helicopters&#8221;. 

Loss in South Korea
2010 &#8211; 2012
9 &#8220;basic&#8221; T129s as interim buy; AH-1Ws as interim buy; TopOwl picked as HMD; Prototype crash; Competing in South Korea.

A129 International
Dec 11/12: South Korea. The ROK government&#8217;s decision to delay their attack helicopter decision until after the Dec 19/12 elections is seen as a positive development for the T129. Its problem is that the country&#8217;s military is widely believed to prefer the AH-64 Apache. If true, TAI&#8217;s challenge is to find other decision centers within the government who might be swayed toward their product. Turkish Daily .

May 2012: South Korea. The T129 is shortlisted alongside Bell Helicopter&#8217;s AH-1Z Viper and Boeing&#8217;s AH-64D Apache Block III for South Korea&#8217;s attack helicopter competition. A decision is expected by October 2012. Source .

March 27/12: Turkey&#8217;s SSM procurement agency has unveiled their new 5-year strategic plan, with timetables for key acquisitions. The plan commits to begin delivery of the T129 ATAK by 2013, and CIRIT laser-guided 70mm rockets for the ATAKs by 2016. Hurriyet Daily News .

Oct 31/11: AH-1W stopgap. With Turkey&#8217;s fleet of serviceable AH-1F/W Cobra attack helicopters dwindling, demands from the Army for helicopters to use against the Marxist Kurdish PKK in Turkey and Iraq, and no arrival of even base configuration T129s before mid-2012, Turkey launches an official request [PDF] for 3 AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopters from US Marine Corps stocks. They&#8217;ll also get 7 T700-GE-401 engines (6 installed/ 1 spare), plus inspections and modifications, spare and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documentation, and U.S. Government and contractor support. 

The estimated cost is $111 million, and all sale proceeds will be reprogrammed into the USMC&#8217;s H-1 helicopter upgrade program to build UH-1Y Venom armed utility and AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters. Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of approximately 5 contractor representatives to Turkey for a period of up to 90 days, for differences training between U.S. and Turkish AH-1Ws helicopters. See also Oct 26/09. 

DSCA request: 3 AH-1W Super Cobras
Nov 8/10: AgustaWestland announces a EUR 150 million contract for 9 &#8220;basic configuration&#8221;/ &#8220;partially armed&#8221; T129 combat helicopters, plus spare parts. The releases do not say, but it&#8217;s reasonable to expect only base AW129 capabilities, without provisions for new Turkish weapons like UMTAS. The stopgap attack helicopters will be assembled by Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) and delivered by mid 2012, one year earlier than the 51 T129s already on order.

AgustaWestland says that the T129 program remains on schedule with both the System Requirements Review and Preliminary Design Review completed in 2009. The Critical Design Review will be completed shortly. Prototypes are being assembled in both Italy and Turkey, and they expect to start the flight test program in January 2011. AgustaWestland | Hurriyet Daily News . 
Emergency buy: 9 T129 &#8220;basic configuration&#8221;

Aug 9/10: Korean Quid Pro Quo? DAPA aircraft programs director Maj. Gen. Choi Cha-kyu says that Turkey is actively considering a partner role in the K-FX fighter program as their indigenous fighter design project. Turkey would bear the same 20% project share as Indonesia if they come on board, with South Korea responsible for 60%. There are reports that in return, Turkey wants South Korea to pick the T129 ATAK helicopter as their future AH-X heavy attack helicopter. 

Turkey eventually seemed to go their own way on their indigenous future fighter, and T129 lost South Korea&#8217;s attack helicopter competition. Korea Times | Hurriyet .

June 16/10: A129 interim. Turkey has launched &#8220;urgent&#8221; talks with AgustaWestland for 9 A129 Mangusta attack helicopters, as a stopgap measure to keep their attack helicopter fleet viable until 2014, when the first T129s are supposed to become available. The parties are expected to meet over the next few weeks to negotiate a price and delivery schedule, but reports say that the Turks are looking for deliveries within the next 2 years.

The Kurdish separatist PKK has stepped up attacks on Turkish targets this spring, and the military is finding existing resources inadequate. With Israeli heavy UAV options in question, attack helicopters become a very important military options in the mountainous terrain of Kurdistan and Iraq. Unfortunately, Turkey&#8217;s byzantine and bare-knuckled procurement process has delayed their efforts, leading to the current gap. See also Oct 26/09 entry.

Similar delays continue to hold up Turkey&#8217;s Utility Helicopter replacement program , which is a competition between AgustaWestland (TUHP 149) and Sikorsky (S-70i). Hurriyet | Defense News .

April 14/10: TopOwl for HMD. Turkey&#8217;s SSM procurement agency picks Thales as its helmet mounted display system partner. Their TopOwl HMDS already equips the US Marines&#8217; new UH-1Y Venom utility and AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, Eurocopter&#8217;s Tiger scout/attack helicopter, and the NH90 medium utility helicopter. Like TopOwl, Turkey&#8217;s derivative Helmet Integrated Cueing System (HICS) will incorporate latest-generation image intensifier tubes for tactical night flight; plus a wide-field (40°) binocular cueing system visor that will display flight and targeting data, symbology, and images from other sensors. 

More precisely, Turkey picked state-owned Aselsan, who then picked Thales. Thales&#8217; main competitor is Israel&#8217;s Elbit Systems, whose offerings range from the comparable JEDEYE to the less sophisticated ANVIS/HUD and IHADDS for AH-64 Apaches. Thales Group&#8217;s release quotes Aselsan Director of Airborne and Naval Programmes Metin Sancar: 

&#8220;After a competitive process with the major suppliers of helmet mounted sights for helicopters, Aselsan was selected in partnership with Thales&#8230; more than 700 [TopOwl] units have been delivered to date. Turkish pilots who evaluated the system in flight were impressed by the comfort of the helmet system and fully appreciated the benefits of visor projection technology, and this played a role in the procurement decision.&#8221;

March 19/10: Turkey&#8217;s T129 prototype crash-lands near Verbania in Italy. The 2 Italian pilots were injured, but their condition is not life-threatening. In a statement, TAI says that: &#8220;The accident is not expected to affect the ATAK program&#8217;s development timetable.&#8221; Defense News . 

Crash
2006 &#8211; 2009
Competition finally ends, with T129 as the winner; 1st flight; Interest from Jordan & Pakistan; Turkey needs a stopgap.

AH-1W firing TOW
Oct 26/09: Interim AH-1Ws. Turkey reportedly has just 6 of its original 12 AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopters in service, to accompany an estimated 23 earlier-model AH-1F Cobras. An interim attack helicopter buy was deemed necessary until the T129s are operational. A Sunday Zaman report quotes US Ambassador to Turkey James Jeffrey, who said that the USA has agreed to sell Turkey an unannounced number of AH-1W attack helicopters from the US Marines&#8217; inventory. It adds that:

&#8220;Early this year Turkey sought the purchase of about 10 Cobra helicopters estimated to cost about $1.5 billion from the US to meet its stop-gap measures in the fight against the outlawed Kurdistan Workers&#8217; Party (PKK). Upon the US decision to sell an unidentified number of Cobras to Turkey, Sunday&#8217;s Zaman learned that Turkey has abandoned talks with Russia on the purchase of several Mi-28 helicopters.&#8221;

Oct 1/09: Export interest & Dates. Flight International reports that Jordan and Pakistan have both asked about the T129.
Within the program, AgustaWestland&#8217;s CEO says the T129 is on time and on cost. Turkey Unique Configuration prototype kits are scheduled for delivery to TAI in April and August 2010 for assembly and trials. Critical Design Reviews are scheduled for spring 2010, and handover to Turkey is scheduled for fall 2013. Sources: Flight International, &#8220;ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey&#8217;s T129 project, after first flight success&#8221;.

Sept 28/09: 1st flight. AgustaWestland announces the maiden flight of the T129 P1 prototype, during an official ceremony held at AgustaWestland facilities in Vergiate, Italy. 

1st flight
June 1/09: Arabian Aerospace points out the secondary commercial benefits of AgustaWestland&#8217;s deal with Turkey:
&#8220;AgustaWestland&#8217;s opening of a regional business headquarters in Turkey in 2008 signified its intention to increase its presence in the Middle East market. The Ankara base is seen as an ideal platform to build on the company&#8217;s growing share of the market in Turkey and will also manage the Tactical Reconnaissance and Attack (ATAK) programme&#8230; Elsewhere, the AW139 is enjoying success in the region.&#8221;

June 24/08: Formal effect. The agreement between AgustaWestland and TAI formally comes into effect. The program is expected to last for 114 months (9.5 years), and the 1st &#8220;T129&#8243; attack helicopter will be delivered to Turkey in June 2013. Other international orders may follow, if TAI can win them. AgustaWestland release :

&#8220;AgustaWestland is pleased to announce that the contracts of the Turkish Attack and Reconnaissance Helicopter (ATAK) Program have become effective and the program has officially started at the ceremony held at the facilities of the Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) today&#8230; having the right to use and administer the intellectual property of the T129 ATAK Helicopter, TAI shall be the sole source for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future worldwide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter. The Collaboration Agreement also provides TAI with the right to sell and market the T129 ATAK Helicopter worldwide.&#8221;

Sept 7/07: The Turkish SSM procurement agency announces the signing of industrial arrangements contracts with AgustaWestland:

&#8220;Within the framework of ATAK Program as per Defence Industry Executive Committee Decree dated 30th of March 2007, Contracts between SSM, TUSAS (TAI), AGUSTAWESTLAND and ASELSAN have been signed on 7th of September, 2007. Official signature ceremony will be held soon.&#8221;

Some unresolved questions remained, but both were cleared up by the Sept 17/07 TAI release. Defense-Aerospace reports that Turkey will take over the entire A129 Mangusta program, and transfer the production line to Turkish Aerospace Industries&#8217; facility outside Ankara. This was confirmed.

The second question concerns the number of helicopters, which has now been resolved. Previous reports in the Turkish press gave figures of 30 helicopters + 20 optional, a far cry from the 91 originally desired. Finmeccanica&#8217;s Sept 11/07 announcement [PDF], set the number at 51 A129 helicopters, with an estimated value for AgustaWestland of around EUR 1.2 billion, and no mention of options. TAI&#8217;s Sept 17/07 release , however, clearly notes the deal&#8217;s structure of 51 helicopters + 41 options, for a total of 92. 

T129 contract: 51 + 41 options
March 30/07: A129 picked. Finmeccanica subsidiary AgustaWestland anounces :
&#8220;The Turkish Executive Committee has announced today that it is to start contract negotiations with AgustaWestland, in partnership with Turkish Aviation Industry (TAI), for the Tactical Reconnaissance and Attack Helicopter &#8211; ATAK Project &#8211; for the Turkish Land Forces Command. The estimated value of this programme to AgustaWestland is in excess of 1.2 billion EURO based on the requirement for 51 A129 helicopters.&#8221; [DID: then about $1.6 billion]

&#8220;&#8230;The AgustaWestland proposal includes significant industrial benefits for Turkey. Several leading Turkish aerospace companies, such as TAI and Aselsan, will be involved in the programme. Final assembly, delivery and acceptance of the aircraft will also take place in Turkey. The A129 is a multi-role combat helicopter designed for day/night and adverse weather combat operations. The A129, powered by two LHTEC T800 turboshaft engines, has a state-of-the-art cockpit&#8230;&#8221;

Note that the release merely announces the beginning of negotiations. While &#8220;preferred source&#8221; negotiations usually have a strong record of success, this is the exact stage in the process where previous acquisition attempts have failed. The Turkish News quoted an industry source some time ago, who reminded onlookers that: 

&#8220;Our procurement history is full of illusions of victory&#8230; When a bidder wins a contract it thinks the game is over. It may not be so.&#8221;

Dec 2/06: Turkish Daily News reports that the competition is stalled, and will either be formally canceled or simply frozen into immobility:

&#8220;Under pressure from the end-user, procurement authorities will likely cancel the existing competition, defense officials admit. &#8220;None of the short-listed solutions fully satisfies the end-user,&#8221; said one official. &#8220;We may renew the competition, or go for an off-the-shelf purchase. That&#8217;s unknown for the moment&#8230;&#8221;

&#8220;Turkey&#8217;s top governmental panel that oversees procurement decisions will convene on Dec. 12 to discuss the attack helicopter program along with others, most notably a decision to opt for the U.S.-led Joint Strike Fighter F-35 fighter aircraft&#8230; The attack helicopter program will be discussed, probably with no full agreement. &#8220;There may or may not be an official announcement for the cancellation of the current bidding process,&#8221; a procurement official familiar with the program said. &#8220;But in any case it would not be realistic to expect any progress, with the military deeply dissatisfied over the existing bids.&#8221; The Defense Industry Executive Committee is chaired by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and includes Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul, Chief of General Staff Gen. Yasar BuyukanÄ±t and head of the [SSM] procurement office&#8230; Murad Bayar.&#8221;

Appendix A: &#8220;I Coulda Been A Contenda&#8230;&#8221;

Ka-50 &#8220;Black Shark&#8221;
Boeing (AH-64 Apache ), Bell Textron (AH-1Z Viper , who won the previous Turkish competition in 2004 until the deal fell through), and Sikorsky (S-70 Strikehawk variant of the Black Hawk utility helicopter in service with the Turkish Armed Forces) were uninterested in the production arrangement described above, and could not offer such guarantees under US export control arrangements; as such, none of them bid this round by the Dec. 5, 2005 bidding deadline.

EADS Eurocopter&#8217;s Tiger and Kamov/IAI&#8217;s KA-50/KA-52 were reportedly eliminated when the Turkish government chose the two lowest-cost bidders.

AH-2A Rooivalk
The Denel Rooivalk (trans. &#8220;Red Hawk,&#8221; or more properly &#8220;Kestrel&#8221 is a heavier attack helicopter, with fewer integrated weapons systems than the A129. One of its key features is that it has been designed to operate in very basic surroundings for prolonged periods without sophisticated support. At present, the only Rooivalks produced since the helicopter&#8217;s inauguration in 1999 have been 12 machines for the South African Defense Forces. The Malaysian Defence Force supposedly has plans to acquire Rooivalk helicopters &#8220;when funding is available,&#8221; and South Africa&#8217;s Port Elizabeth Herald quotes analysts who believe that a win in Turkey might also tip Pakistan toward the platform.

Middle Eastern Newsline offers a further report that South Africa has outlined plans to co-produce a range of platforms in Turkey as part of a defense partnership based on Ankara&#8217;s attack helicopter program. They said South Africa has offered one of the most generous offset deals as part of its offer of the Rooivalk attack helicopter to the Turkish Army. &#8220;Under the offer, Turkey and South Africa would create a strategic defense partnership that would rapidly develop out defense industries,&#8221; a Turkish official said.

On the flip side, the Turkish Daily News reported that Eurocopter who supplies the Rooivalk&#8217;s engines and some spare parts, has said that it would not guarantee a supply line for Turkey if Ankara chose the Rooivalk.

Note that both Agusta and Denel propose moving their production lines to Turkey.

Eurocopter Tiger HAC
The shortlist was something of a surprise to many observers; at the time, the Turkish Daily News reports that it may even lead to friction between the government and the military. Turkey&#8217;s military, which has a large political role as the de facto guarantor of Kemal Attaturk&#8217;s secularist vision, was reportedly split between the Eurocopter Tiger and Boeing Apache. The paper further noted that Land Forces Commander Gen. Yasar Buyukanit, the most critical military figure concerning the attack helicopter program and possibly the next Chief of Staff, was not present at the meeting.

Appendix B: Additional Readings & Sources
Thanks to reader Keith Campbell for his added precision in the translation of &#8220;Rooivalk&#8221;
Background: ATAK Program
&#8226;	Turkish SSM &#8211; Tactical Reconnaissance and Attack Helicopter (ATAK) Project . 
&#8226;	AgustaWestland &#8211; T129 
&#8226;	TAI &#8211; T129 Attack Helicopter 
&#8226;	Army Technology &#8211; A129 International Multi-Role Combat Helicopter, Italy 
&#8226;	Army Technology &#8211; Rooivalk Attack Helicopter, South Africa 
&#8226;	Turkish Daily News, via WayBack &#8211; How not to buy weapons systems . Offers a timeline of the program from 1995-2005. 
News & Views
&#8226;	Turkish Daily News (Dec 2/06) &#8211; Back to square one in attack helicopter plan: Ankara preparing to scrap bidding . Via NOSINT . 
&#8226;	The Herald Online (July 5/06) &#8211; Turkey shortlists Rooivalk attack chopper [dead link] 
&#8226;	Turkish Daily News, via WayBack (July 4/06) &#8211; Helicopter contest may divide government, military 
&#8226;	Middle Eastern Newsline, via WayBack (July 4/06) &#8211; S. Africa Offers Missile Projects To Turkey 
&#8226;	Turkish Press, via WayBack (July 4/06) &#8211; Defense Industry Executive Committee Meeting 
&#8226;	AP, via Houston Chronicle (June 30/06) &#8211; Turkey Shortlists Firms for Helicopter [dead link] 
&#8226;	DID (Sept 29/05) &#8211; Turkish Attack Heli Competition Stumbles Again 
&#8226;	DID &#8211; Turkey Sticks With Sikorsky: $3.5b for over 100 H-60 Family Helicopters. Some may also feature a weapons package. 
Categories: Africa - Other, Boeing, Europe - Other, Finmeccanica, France, Helicopters & Rotary, Israel, Issues - Political, Lobbying, Other Corporation, Policy - Procurement, RFPs, Russia, Thales, Turkey, United Technologies, USA

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## Irfan Baloch

Gessler said:


> GB can't do nothing against US wishes.
> 
> Uncle Sam tells GB to raise a finger, they will raise it.
> Uncle Sam tells GB to lower a finger, they will lower it.



sorry you are bit wrong

Uncle Sam tells GB to raise a finger, they will raise the entire arm
Uncle Sam tells GB to lower a finger , They will cut their entire arm

presence of Uk/US engine in T-129 is pretty much a deal killer

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## Sargodhian_Eagle

Roznama Dunya

Here is a news in today Dunya News.....I am not sure that it will happen....May be, 9 T-129 mentioned in News are coming for evaluation purpose.

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## shanixee

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> Roznama Dunya
> 
> Here is a news in today Dunya News.....I am not sure that it will happen....May be, 9 T-129 mentioned in News are coming for evaluation purpose.



If its true you made my day bro...


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## nomi007

may be usa offer Ah-1z during nawaz visit to usa.
if such this happened than pakistan gets both
1 for pa and 1 for paf

may be usa offer Ah-1z during nawaz visit to usa.
if such this happened than pakistan gets both
1 for pa and 1 for paf

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## Sargodhian_Eagle

shanixee said:


> If its true you made my day bro...



Dude, u know **** Media is bullshit...Perhaps, this is true but i am not hopeful abt this when Uncle Sam is in Afghanistan.


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## shanixee

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> Dude, u know **** Media is bullshit...Perhaps, this is true but i am not hopeful abt this when Uncle Sam is in Afghanistan.



I agree but we have to be optimistic..


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## BaybarsHan

HiRes T129 Pic

http://i.imgur.com/ewjki.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SPMUT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6XJ62.jpg


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## Kompromat



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## Bratva

*Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal*

ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA &#8212; *Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.

However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.
*

Pakistani media reports state a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), but speculation that preparations are already underway to build a new helicopter production facility there could not be confirmed.

Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif&#8217;s Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for the Third High Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129&#8217;s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.

Turkish officials confirmed talks have &#8220;matured to a certain extent,&#8221; and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

&#8220;We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,&#8221; said one senior procurement official in Ankara. &#8220;We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.&#8221;

The official declined to comment on the modality of any deal.

*However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.*

Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.

However, a Turkish procurement official dealing with international agreements and financing voiced doubt over Pakistan&#8217;s ability to afford a deal.

&#8220;We know that Pakistan is not in the best financial shape. But this could be overcome with political will,&#8221; he said.

Salma Malik, assistant professor at the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Islamabad&#8217;s Quaid-i-Azam University, is uncertain, but not dismissive, saying this &#8220;depends on how and what kind of budgetary allocation the concerned offices have, and how they have outlaid it.&#8221;

A more serious potential obstacle, however, is obtaining US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the T-129.

A US industry source in Ankara said a US export license for the T-129&#8217;s engine would be critical. &#8220;This may require complex deliberations in Washington, involving many industrial and political parameters,&#8221; he said.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said Congress holds the key to the deal.

&#8220;It is most unlikely that either the White House or the Pentagon would attempt to deny an export license to Turkey for T-129 power plants and ancillaries, but the Defense Security Cooperation [Agency] is required to notify Congress of most proposed sales and obtain approval,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.&#8221;

Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.

In remarks carried by Turkish daily Today&#8217;s Zaman, Turkey&#8217;s procurement chief, Murad Bayar, said Sept. 23 that the T-129 attack helicopter &#8220;had strong export potential.&#8221;

The T-129 has been going through acceptance tests before deliveries for the Turkish military. Officials expect the first delivery to be made within the next few weeks.

&#8220;We may complete the delivery of the first nine helicopters by the end of the year,&#8221; Bayar said. &#8220;After these helicopters make their way into the Turkish inventory, I believe they will have strong chances for export.&#8221;

Azerbaijan is reportedly looking to buy 60 T-129 helicopters. Jordan&#8217;s King Abdullah, who was in Turkey in March, visited Turkish Aerospace Industries, co-maker of the T-129, and examined both the helicopter gunship and Turkey&#8217;s first locally-developed drone, the Anka.

*Despite Turkey&#8217;s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.

No one at the defense section in the US Embassy would comment on the matter, but details were confirmed by sources in Pakistan familiar with the deal.

Pakistan has been awarded US $300 million in foreign military financing for FY2013-2014, which could be used to procure the Viper attack helicopters, made by Bell.

This is part of a wider deal discussed during US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter&#8217;s trip to Islamabad on Sept. 17.

Cloughley, however, does not believe Pakistan will be tempted.

&#8220;I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.&#8221;*

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com




> A US DoD source which stated that US has given clearance for Turkey to sell T129, and UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters. The source also confirmed that the US will issue a package for Pak for 20 AH-1Z plus support equipment sometime in January '14. There are some meaningful talks for more F-16s. (this news is about 10 days old prior to the truth-out article)
> 
> Not sure why the Blackhawk is in there but one never knows what will happen.
> 
> the US has passd laws which will expedite the sale of military hardware without much Congress oversight.
> 
> In Big Win for Defense Industry, Obama Rolls Back Limits on Arms Exports
> 
> H.Khan at Pakdef

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## Arsalan

http://www.thenewstribe.com/2013/10/23/pakistan-to-sell-05-to-07-jf-17-thunder-next-year/

Also mentioned helicopter manufacturing plans at PAC and ongoing discussion with Turkey and other countries.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Wow, beautiful helicopter...


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## Kompromat

Saturday, October 19, 2013 - ACCORDING to Turkish media reports, Ankara is keen to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is *prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so. *

The T-129 attack helicopter is a co-production of the Turkish aerospace industries and a European consortium. However, there are also reports that the *US could sink the deal as it is opposing their supply to Pakistan on the pretext that the engine of the T-129 helicopters* is of American production and special permission is necessary for their export.

*Military and defence experts believe that T-129, a state of the art product, capable to achieve a speed of 300 kilometres per hour, can fly in any weather conditions and poor visibility and is best suited to meet defence requirements of Pakistan.* T-129 is the result of the integration of indigenously developed avionics and weapon systems by Turkey on to the combat proven Agusta Westland A-129 airframe, with upgraded engines, transmission and rotor blades. 

*The helicopter is designed to meet the demanding requirements of armed forces. Optimized for “hot & high” environments and having considerable fire-power, T-129 is the most efficient Attack Helicopter in its class.* No doubt, the *United States reportedly wants to give Pakistan an alternate offer but strategic interests demand that Islamabad should go for the Turkish offer because it is dependable and trust worthy. *

We have seen *in the past that Americans blocked or considerably delayed supplies on one pretext or the other and suspended supply of spares during periods of crisis.* We should also keep in mind that *Turkey is agreeable to the Pakistani proposition of joint production of the helicopter involving technology transfer and training of personnel but the United States is unlikely to agree to such terms. *

*Pakistan has every right to meet its security, defence and economic needs from whatever sources it deems appropriate* keeping in view its own requirements and conditions and friendly countries should respect sovereign decisions of the country. We hope that along with the issue of Iranian gas pipeline project, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif would also take up the issue of T-129 emphatically with President Obama during their meeting in Washington later this month.

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=221205

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## ghazi52

Truly. a beautiful helicopter ...


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## A1Kaid

Thorough Pro said:


> No offence to Turkish brothers, but in my opinion Pakistan should learn from the past and not buy any equipment which might compromise its operational capabilities, specialty in the light of US-India romance these days.
> 
> Best course of action would be to go for Chinese WZ-10, or a combo of Chinese hardware+ Turkish avionics/software etc.




If full domestic production can be sought and according to reports it can be then I say Pakistan should opt for the T-129.


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## Viking 63

All the talk here is very nice... but really where is the Money???


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## BaybarsHan



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## Darth Vader

For My Friends aint gone Happen UNCLE SAM will never allow Not in thousand years or not for millions of dollar the last option will be china :d


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## monitor

considering the quality and familiarity i think Pakistan should go for AH-1Z viper as it is a upgraded version of AH-1 cobra Pakistan already operating . Pakistan need Attack helicopter right now to solve insurgency activities in afghan border , so a helicopter which can be get instantly and induct soon should be chosen . 
but on the other Pakistan seems to want get rid of American blackmailing and wants a product which would be cheap to operate and maintain and sanction free . in that case T-129B offer the best as it s coming from a friendly and brotherly country .


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## Nav

it would be great for Pakistan interests to get these beautiful and deadly birds.. if America let this happen


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## PiyaraPakistan

Having a advance Helicopter is a plus point/Force multiplier but can we use Drones instead of Helis to petrol our borders (I m not discussing the availability of drones). Although drone operation are very 'Badnam' now a days but it would be very economical.
Sir @Aeronaut, Fatman and others.
Regards

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## nomi007

in next coming days US-PAKISTAN relations going worse so that will hurt the T-129 DEAL


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## Gessler

*Turkey's T-129 Attack Helicopters Failing Acceptance Tests*

Turkey remains fully committed to a co-production program with Italian-British AgustaWestland for scores of T-129 attack helicopters despite “minor” technical snags that have delayed acceptance tests for an initial batch of nine choppers.

“It is perfectly normal to have problems during acceptance tests. We remain committed to this program. It is a matter of days or weeks before we find a solution,” a senior defense official said. “We want to have these helicopters in our inventory in perfect condition.”

The official said acceptance tests had been carried out on a double-check basis, both by the end-user, the Land Forces, and the quality check department of the defense procurement agency, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM).






A batch of early delivery T-129 attack helicopters, dubbed the T-129A EDH, which Turkey has acquired from AgustaWestland, have been repeatedly failing acceptance tests since 2012 due to a mismatch with technical specifications stated in the contract. Industry sources say the calibration failures center on lower-than-required maximum speed, excess vibration during flight, maximum takeoff weight and poor firing performance.

The six T-129A EDHs are part of a batch of nine platforms which Turkey ordered in November 2010, increasing its total order to 60. The nine were to meet an urgent operational requirement for the Turkish Army against the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK).

Murad Bayar, Turkey’s top defense procurement official, said there was even significant foreign interest in the T-129. “The program is on track. There is potential for exports. This chopper is possibly the best solution in the world in asymmetrical warfare,” Bayar said.

The T-129s were largely built by AgustaWestland in Italy with an expected delivery in late 2012, one year before the Turkish-built helicopters would start being delivered. The first nine choppers are to be armed by Turkey.

A source at TAI, the Turkish prime subcontractor for the attack helicopter program, admitted “deviations from original specifications” and said “hard work was ahead to correct these.”

What if the technical work to attain the performance criteria in the contract specifications fails? “One way or another, this program will go ahead as planned,” the defense official said.

According to industry sources, there are two options: either the producer (AgustaWestland and TAI) should improve performance, or SSM will have to bend contract specifications so that the military examiners can give a nod and “accept” the nine platforms.

A senior SSM official said a solution could eventually be found “in between the two options.” The official did not specify how. But in an earlier dispute similar to this (Israeli-made Heron drones) Bayar explained how technical snags had been overcome with the words “an agreement around different perceptions.”

Turkey announced on March 30, 2007, that it had decided to negotiate with AgustaWestland to co-develop and produce 51 attack helicopters with 40 options based on Agusta’s A-129 Mangusta International. The T-129 would be assembled in a TAI plant near Ankara. A contract was signed on Sep. 7, 2007.

On June 22, 2008, the agreement – also known as ATAK and worth a total $3.2 billion – between TAI and AgustaWestland formally came into force. It has been confirmed that the T-129 will be a Turkish-built platform. Under the agreement, TAI will develop an indigenous mission computer, avionics and weapons systems.

Tusa? Engine Industries, Inc. will manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-AN engines under license. Under the co-production agreement, Turkey also has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform.

On Sep 28, 2009, the first flight of the T-129 P1 prototype took place at AgustaWestland’s facilities in Vergiate, Italy, and on Aug. 17, 2011, TAI announced the first successful flight of the T-129 prototype produced at its facilities near Ankara. The tested prototype was the first of three that were assembled in Turkey.

Luckily, the delays have come at a time when Turkey does not urgently need the T-129s which are intended to be used primarily in the Turkish military’s warfare against the PKK, as a fragile cease-fire since late 2012 has been easing the pressure.

Meanwhile, Turkey has been aggressively lobbying to sell the T-129 to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so. Pakistani media reports have stated a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).

Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for a third High-Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129’s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.

Turkish officials confirmed talks have “matured to a certain extent,” and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

Defence News

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## Imran Khan

do it pakistan before last cobra crash


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## Armstrong

Imran Khan said:


> do it pakistan before last cobra crash



Imran Bhai aaaap $$$ tou bhejj teiii nahin haiiin tou hummm yeh Helicopters kaisee leiiin ?

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## Imran Khan

Armstrong said:


> Imran Bhai aaaap $$$ tou bhejj teiii nahin haiiin tou hummm yeh Helicopters kaisee leiiin ?


bakwaas hai yeh? we send 5bn 300mn $ in 4 months or kya daaky mary yahan ?

3 din phly ye pardha tha ?

Overseas Pakistanis sent home U.S. $ 5.3 billion in 4 months - Education News Pakistan

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## Armstrong

Imran Khan said:


> bakwaas hai yeh? we send 5bn 300mn $ in 4 months or kya daaky mary yahan ?
> 
> 3 din phly ye pardha tha ?
> 
> Overseas Pakistanis sent home U.S. $ 5.3 billion in 4 months - Education News Pakistan



*Imran Bhai* mazaaak kar rahaa thaaa !

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## Imran Khan

Armstrong said:


> *Imran Bhai* mazaaak kar rahaa thaaa !


ab helicopter lo ok hum itny ghareeb bhi nhi hain jitna ye bolty hain is saal 15bn$ se oper hi ayeen gay .


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## DESERT FIGHTER

In a perfect world... a sqd of super cobras and in-house production of T-129s would be awesome..





Otherwise... instead of getting super cobras... Pakistan should get the T-129... there are several benefits... experience,no issues for spares etc..


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## HumanJinn

These *T-129 ATAK Helicopter will be useful, if they do not come down with RPGs or Anti Air Missiles like what Pakistani Taliban and BLA in Baluchistan got from India, US and IsraHell through Deception and Secrecy! We have to know what weapons they have against RPGs and Anti Air Missiles then we have to get these choppers
*

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## Edevelop

There is Rumor Pakistan will receive 9 in it's first batch. Any conformation ?


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## Beast

Pakistan shall wait for WZ-10.. T-129 still has american parts and Pakistan will still be held ransom to Americans.

WZ-10 designer: armed helicopters are no longer 'weak points' of PLA's equipment - People's Daily Online



> BEIJING, November 7 (ChinaMil) -- Armed helicopters, known as "tank killers", of theChinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) used to be taken by the West as the "weakpoints" of the PLA's equipment. In an interview on November 6, 2013 at the ChineseFlight Test Center (CFTC) of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), WuChengfa, deputy chief designer of WZ-10, pointed out that the statement is no longertenable since the commissioning of Z-10.
> 
> Wu Chengfa expressed that Z-10 has highly-advanced overall performance.
> 
> Foreign media, such as Jane's Defense Weekly and New York Times, once commented thatWZ-10 is one of the most advanced armed helicopters in the world, even comparable withEurocopter Tiger of Europe and Apache of the U.S. military.
> 
> At the Paris Air Show held in June this year, Ma Zhiping, general manager of the ChinaNational Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), disclosed that WZ-10and WZ-19 attracted great international attention after their air shows at the Zhuhai AirShow 2012, and government approval is required if they are sold abroad in the future.
> 
> When asked whether WZ-10 will be sold abroad, *Wu Chengfa gave an affirmative answerthat WZ-10 will be exported to other countries in the future.*

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## BaybarsHan




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## HumanJinn

Turkish T-129 ATAK Versus Chinese WZ-10 Attack Combat Helicopter Who is better?


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## madmusti

*The joke is that Turkish Army has not any One of these T-129 ATAK´s in his Service !!!*

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## razgriz19

madmusti said:


> *The joke is that Turkish Army has not any One of these T-129 ATAK´s in his Service !!!*



Turkey signs for more T129 attack helicopters

ON ORDER!


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## madmusti

razgriz19 said:


> Turkey signs for more T129 attack helicopters
> 
> ON ORDER!




Omg please stop to posting from Sources that are not True or not Turkish Sources (turkish sources too are not the best!).

If the Turkish Army don´t accept it ,it will not happen that an T-129 will fly for the Army of Turkey.

They can produce so much they want ,if the Army doesn´t accept it ,then is there not a Deal.

The T-129 is on development Stage and is not Finished.

Maybe Pakistan should go for the WZ-10 like JF-17 Thunder.

The T-129 will be better then SuperCobra or maybe too better then AH-Z1 ,but only the later Variants of this Gunship when anything will happen that the SSM want.

But the biggest Problem is that there is no Finished Product for Turkish Army or other Customers.

There is a too a Engine Problem.

These Problems are very Critical and on my Opinion was the ATAK II Project the Mangusta not the best choice that Turkey can get !!!


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## PiyaraPakistan

HumanJinn said:


> These *T-129 ATAK Helicopter will be useful, if they do not come down with RPGs or Anti Air Missiles like what Pakistani Taliban and BLA in Baluchistan got from India, US and IsraHell through Deception and Secrecy! We have to know what weapons they have against RPGs and Anti Air Missiles then we have to get these choppers
> *


We should fit this in whole pic, not dedicated for BLA or any other terrorist group, focus on overall requirement, it should be all rounder not like our current cricket team. T-129 or WS-10 both are very good because both comes from our friendly and brother nations.


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## AsianLion

I dont have access to the full article but it looks like the T129 is nearly a done deal now. Interesting tid bit about the Anka UAV. If I am reading it correctly PAC has been contracted to build the airframes. I wonder if the T129 deal could pave the way for co production of Turkey's Indigenous Helicopter Program if and when it materialises. We really do need to bolster our utility/transport/airborne assault helo fleet. Pakistan to collaborate with Turkey on T-129

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex has signed a work share agreement with Turkish Aerospace Industries, paving the way for any future Pakistani purchase of the T-129 attack helicopter.

‘TAI has contracted us to build frames for their Anka UAV, while we are also looking forward to collaborating with them ...

http://www.shephardm...e-turkey-t-129/

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## trident2010

Congrats !!


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## Viking 63

seriously doubt this !! don't have the finances for it.


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan should pursue the T129 aggressively. Consolidating anti-tank and anti-terrorist ops capability is the need of the hour.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What would be a good number for first set of Helicopters to arrive from Turkey
I would say getting 50 Helicopters would be a great start to build the Helicopter force for Pakistan Military power

Its understood that Turkey would get the first 100 helicopters for their own military however hopefully in 2-3 years frame we should be able to equip more helicopters for national needs

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## Arsalan

The Turkish Prime minister visit of Pakistan is over and unfortunately there was no development reprted regarding Pakistan's pursuit of T-129


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## shanixee

Arsalan said:


> The Turkish Prime minister visit of Pakistan is over and unfortunately there was no development reprted regarding Pakistan's pursuit of T-129


Nawaz shareef probably asked him money so and turkish PM might have kept quiet thinking NS is fukraa

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## Kompromat



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## fatman17

did PK accept offer of 3 helos for evaluation.....?

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## xxxKULxxx

Most probably T-129 will go Pakistan for Tests... 

Lots of countries interested in T-129 Turkic states, Middle East...

T129 ATAK Helikopteri hangi ülkede test edilecek?

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## Hakan

*T 129 Weapon Systems
*​*



































*

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## Gryphon

Via: 

Alan Warnes
@warnesyworld

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## A.Rafay

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Via:
> 
> Alan Warnes
> @warnesyworld


This is great for PAC, we are already making parts of Anka UAV.

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## Nishan_101

I would rather say now the time is JV with Turkey and brings in GCC on V-22 like Machines of different classes.


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## xxxKULxxx

- 9 T-129 ATAK EDH will enter inventory in the following months...
- For a while 2 of them will be used for trainings...
- Since 2011 more then 3.200 hours test flight have been made...
- Nearly 5.000 rocket launchs have been made...
- T-129 ATAK will take place at Farnborough Airshow in 19-20 July 2014 and will perform a demonstration flight...


T129 Erken Duhul Helikopterlerinin üretimi tamamlandı

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## Hakan

xxxKULxxx said:


> - 9 T-129 ATAK EDH will enter inventory in the following months...
> - For a while 2 of them will be used for trainings...
> - Since 2011 more then 3.200 hours test flight have been made...
> - Nearly 5.000 rocket launchs have been made...
> - T-129 ATAK will take place at Farnborough Airshow in 19-20 July 2014 and will perform a demonstration flight...
> 
> 
> T129 Erken Duhul Helikopterlerinin üretimi tamamlandı


Wow this is great. The Turkish Army will now have a very effective and proven platform. Cant wait to see it at the airshow.

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## RAMPAGE

xxxKULxxx said:


> - 9 T-129 ATAK EDH will enter inventory in the following months...
> - For a while 2 of them will be used for trainings...
> - Since 2011 more then 3.200 hours test flight have been made...
> - Nearly 5.000 rocket launchs have been made...
> - T-129 ATAK will take place at Farnborough Airshow in 19-20 July 2014 and will perform a demonstration flight...
> 
> 
> T129 Erken Duhul Helikopterlerinin üretimi tamamlandı


I need a more powerful engine !!!


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## Hakan

RAMPAGE said:


> I need a more powerful engine !!!


Bro if it meets the militaries requirements and it is able to carry all the bells and whistles it needs to operate effectively then I dont think that it not being as powerful as for example the apache is a problem.

T-129

*Performance*

*Maximum speed:* 278 km/h (151 knots, 174 mph)
*Cruise speed:* 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
*Range:* 561 km (303 nmi, 341 mi)
*Ferry range:* 1,000 km (540 nmi, 620 mi)
*Service ceiling:* 6,096 m (20,000 ft)
*Rate of climb:* 14.0 m/s (2,750 ft/min)
TAI/AgustaWestland T129 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## farhan_9909

In the other forum i hear that PAC and turkey are discussing a possible parts manufacturing for t-129 in PAC

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## Hakan

farhan_9909 said:


> In the other forum i hear that PAC and turkey are discussing a possible parts manufacturing for t-129 in PAC





TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Via:
> 
> Alan Warnes
> @warnesyworld



I dont know anything regarding the source and its validity.


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## airmarshal

Kaan said:


> I dont know anything regarding the source and its validity.



Alan Warnes is a very credible defense journalist. He writes for Jane's and Air Force Monthly. He cant be wrong or at least his info cant be unverified.

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## Gessler

farhan_9909 said:


> In the other forum i hear that PAC and turkey are discussing a possible parts manufacturing for t-129 in PAC



I wonder if all the hungama about Pak purchasing T-129 will end with the Turks outsourcing production of
some parts (nothing much to cheer about really, India builds parts for EA-18G Growler) to PAC while PA
would end up buying AH-1Z Super Viper from US after 2015.

I don't think the so-called issue about dependence on US is justified, bcoz if Pak really seeks to move away
from US stuff, you'd be buying Chinese WZ-19. Not looking for T-129 which has considerable US-sourced
equipment like the turboshaft engine, moreover the T-129 is based on AgustaWestland A129 which is from
Italy, again an entirely US-obeying country.


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## MastanKhan

Gessler said:


> I wonder if all the hungama about Pak purchasing T-129 will end with the Turks outsourcing production of
> some parts (nothing much to cheer about really, India builds parts for EA-18G Growler) to PAC while PA
> would end up buying AH-1Z Super Viper from US after 2015.
> 
> I don't think the so-called issue about dependence on US is justified, bcoz if Pak really seeks to move away
> from US stuff, you'd be buying Chinese WZ-19. Not looking for T-129 which has considerable US-sourced
> equipment like the turboshaft engine, moreover the T-129 is based on AgustaWestland A129 which is from
> Italy, again an entirely US-obeying country.



Hi,

The u s is obviously our first choice of weapons.


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## Luftwaffe

AH-1Z would be the choice because there is Cobra infrastructure in place for the past 30 years, had it not been the case Pakistan would have gone for any other Gunship. Z-19 maybe compared to AH-1 but still it is inferior to AH1Z in terms of Armor over all and single engine if China can refine the product and bring it to Pakistan for tests and bring it closer to AH-1Z maybe there could be a chance otherwise pointless even T-129 should not be looked into but AH-1Z...already told t-129 is expensive almost 35m each and the total cost of a single gunship might go to 48m we always get alot of discounts from both US and China I am not sure Turkey would be willing to do same.

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## Zarvan

Luftwaffe said:


> AH-1Z would be the choice because there is Cobra infrastructure in place for the past 30 years, had it not been the case Pakistan would have gone for any other Gunship. Z-19 maybe compared to AH-1 but still it is inferior to AH1Z in terms of Armor over all and single engine if China can refine the product and bring it to Pakistan for tests and bring it closer to AH-1Z maybe there could be a chance otherwise pointless even T-129 should not be looked into but AH-1Z...already told t-129 is expensive almost 35m each and the total cost of a single gunship might go to 48m we always get alot of discounts from both US and China I am not sure Turkey would be willing to do same.


Sir problem is from Turkey we can easily get the helicopters as well as the spare parts with USA both are difficult they can stop supplies at any time they can't be trusted at all and we can get helicopters from Turkey with TOT

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

T129 program is moving at slow pace


We need a secondary Helicopter program TOT program in country and local production line

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## Luftwaffe

Zarvan said:


> Sir problem is from Turkey we can easily get the helicopters as well as the spare parts with USA both are difficult they can stop supplies at any time they can't be trusted at all and we can get helicopters from Turkey with TOT



T-129 has american technologies as well not to forget the Engine.


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## Drebin

@Luftwaffe

I agree with your understanding of the matter in reference to AH-1Z vs T-129 vs WZ-19. The obvious and the most sensible as well as economic among the bunch being super cobra but, don't you think the prospect of ToT which T-129 brings with itself is simply too good to refuse? Saying so because, it will further diversify our supply chain and bring in more and just competition among the top contenders. Even more important is the fact that, Pakistan will be absorbing the top western tech in field of military chopper manufacturing which will yield long term benefits in so many ways. Furthermore, it'll also help Pakistan establish even courteous relationships with Turkey (One of the top NATO allies) , thus bringing both our national interests further in line with each others boosting civil and military cooperation to strategic level.

In my humble view, this is an opportunity which should be fully exploited for the betterment of lives of people of both brotherly countries.

And also, T-129 may be a new and unproven platform but, it also means that its potential for upgrade is far superior to that of Super Cobra. And particularly important is the fact that, with ToT and closer cooperation of Turkey (or without), it can be tweaked and tinkered with to make a custom platform that adheres to each and every need of our Armed Forces akin to JF-17 Thunder.

Although, one can argue of WZ-19 bringing the same advantages but, to be fair, China hasn't offered ToT with it. Furthermore, it is questionable whether the Chinese technology is even on par with western technology or not (No offense to Chinese brothers). And again the important thing is diversification which wont happen with WZ-19. It'll rather make us even more reliant on China just like USA in past. And we all know it didn't bode well for us. In practical world, diversification and self reliance is the name of the game. It's a strategic lesson which will do us good should we bother to remember.

So, in my humble view, ATAK T-129 should be the logical choice for us. But, Army may be leaning more towards AH-1Zs. 

Lets see what happens. Fingers crossed .

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## Luftwaffe

Drebin said:


> @Luftwaffe
> 
> I agree with your understanding of the matter in reference to AH-1Z vs T-129 vs WZ-19. The obvious and the most sensible as well as economic among the bunch being super cobra but, don't you think the prospect of ToT which T-129 brings with itself is simply too good to refuse? Saying so because, it will further diversify our supply chain and bring in more and just competition among the top contenders. Even more important is the fact that, Pakistan will be absorbing the top western tech in field of military chopper manufacturing which will yield long term benefits in so many ways. Furthermore, it'll also help Pakistan establish even courteous relationships with Turkey (One of the top NATO allies) , thus bringing both our national interests further in line with each others boosting civil and military cooperation to strategic level.
> 
> In my humble view, this is an opportunity which should be fully exploited for the betterment of lives of people of both brotherly countries.
> 
> And also, T-129 may be a new and unproven platform but, it also means that its potential for upgrade is far superior to that of Super Cobra. And particularly important is the fact that, with ToT and closer cooperation of Turkey (or without), it can be tweaked and tinkered with to make a custom platform that adheres to each and every need of our Armed Forces akin to JF-17 Thunder.
> 
> Although, one can argue of WZ-19 bringing the same advantages but, to be fair, China hasn't offered ToT with it. Furthermore, it is questionable whether the Chinese technology is even on par with western technology or not (No offense to Chinese brothers). And again the important thing is diversification which wont happen with WZ-19. It'll rather make us even more reliant on China just like USA in past. And we all know it didn't bode well for us. In practical world, diversification and self reliance is the name of the game. It's a strategic lesson which will do us good should we bother to remember.
> 
> So, in my humble view, ATAK T-129 should be the logical choice for us. But, Army may be leaning more towards AH-1Zs.
> 
> Lets see what happens. Fingers crossed .



The Engine is US/EU Honeywell-Rolls Royce for T-129 that is major component.


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## Drebin

Luftwaffe said:


> The Engine is US/EU Honeywell-Rolls Royce for T-129 that is major component.


So is RD-93 on Thunder. Though its Russian and not US or EU but, point is Russia could block it too due to India. Yet it doesn't because China is involved, Pakistan is turning a new leaf with Russia with reported arrival to Putin back in September -which was postponed due to changing political reasons- and there's a thing called international diplomacy, sovereign guarantees, MOUs etc. Instead, Klimov is building a new generation of RD-93 with greater performance and thrust to weight ratio. And to date RD-93 has ONLY been fitted onto Thunders. Flankers still use Rd-33 and improved variants if I'm not mistaking.

You may argue that situation and dynamics of Russia are different then that of United States or Europe. I'll respectably disagree as each nation looks more towards its national interests. In this case, its a chopper engine and, not a jet or missile engine. Military helicopters at best play a supportive role in anti-tank warfare during war times, anti-insurgency ops during peace -or even war- times and, are meant as a defensive instruments rather then oppressive. A lone helicopter won't venture into an enemy state to carry out bombardment sorties on targets of strategic value or nuke 'em for that matter. It's strictly a defensive machine. . . Now compared to that, US just approved selling of 13 Jordanian F-16s which actually CAN be used to carry out deep strike missions inside enemy territory! How'd that come about? Not to forget the pending fate of $6-7 Billion dollar worth of leftover Afghan war equipment and EDA, which is strongly hinted/confirmed as coming to Pakistan.

Now you may raise an objection that the examples I mentioned in reference to US, are actually equipment wholly solely built or manufactured there (USA). Thus, money (if paid) goes directly to US or if not then, US influence still stays strong. But, just like the RD-93, Russia doesn't pull out because it'd be unwise to strain relationships with China (1), incur losses on Russian company in the process (2) and, loose any hope of building new relations with Pakistan -a nuclear powered and very strategically placed geopolitical Muslim country, where anti-USA sentiment is at an all time high- on heels of ever increasing Indian tilt towards America for its arms purchas or nuclear deals (3). So is true for America as if it so hinders the deal then, it'll surely cause Pakistan to move further away from it, which will prove disastrous as it'll mean the loss of the biggest and most powerful non-NATO Muslim ally armed with Nuclear weapons (1), straining of yet an other NATO Muslim ally, i.e., Turkey (2), remorse from Rolls Royce and Europe (3). Simply put, it'll be one the biggest diplomatic disaster in US history (if I'm not over exaggerating) and, a huge blow to U.S Foreign policy.

The best U.S can do is offer Pakistan a better deal. Something Pakistan can't refuse. And as things are right now, that is exactly what U.S seems to be doing as confirmed by Allen Warnes. But, there is NO WAY U.S is going to threat this deal with looming sword of sanctions. It just can't afford to.

Therefore, I think its in our best interest to stand fast and not buckle under pressure. That's my two cents on the matter anyway. Sorry for the long post .

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## airmarshal

Drebin said:


> T-129 may be a new and unproven platform



T-129 is actually A-129, an AugustaWestland helicopter built under license in Turkey. So its not totally unproven. 

Its unproven if you compare it to Americans. But the only war proven platforms in the world are US sourced as US is the only country which goes and fights other nations.

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## Drebin

airmarshal said:


> T-129 is actually A-129, an AugustaWestland helicopter built under license in Turkey. So its not totally unproven.
> 
> Its unproven if you compare it to Americans. But the only war proven platforms in the world are US sourced as US is the only country which goes and fights other nations.


Thanks for the correction but, it was my belief that the only similarity that both share is the chassis. T-129 is based or built in A-129's chassis. Apart from that, its an entirely new system.

I might be wrong again but, might any Turkish brother shade a little light on it.


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## cabatli_53

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> T129 program is moving at slow pace
> 
> 
> We need a secondary Helicopter program TOT program in country and local production line




From December 2011 to today, Atak flew 3200+ hours. During flights, Following munitions were fired.

-42000 (20mm gun)
-4800 (70mm rocket)
-600 Flare

Turkish defence industry is developing a real bloody combat copter which is able to give response to all type of threats so trials are proceeding difficult.



> The quantity of munitions fired only trial process of Atak weren't fired by any European countries' copters during their operational lifetime.











> Until today, TAI trained* 27* T129 Atak pilots along with *107* Atak maintenance crew which is going to serve Atak team on ground.











> Roketsan made Mizrak family of long range anti-tank missiles with top/direct attack modes are forming main basis of Atak's deep striking ability against enemy armours.



First guided launch of Mizrak-U









> Combination of Mizrak with low cost but impressively effective Roketsan made Cirit missiles on Atak put it a different league among others. Cirit successfully hit a moving target travelling at 60 km/h while the platform AH-1W, it was fired from was moving at 220 km/h (120 knots).









> Aselsan made AVCI HMDU gives Atak pilots big situation awariness opportunity. No need to look around to find targets, instead AVCI reflects everything Aselsan made 300T FLIR detects...

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## cabatli_53

> Aselsan developed a new 3rd generation QWIP based FLIR system called "235 CATS". It is much more effective than 300T that Atak helicopter carries but 1/2 lighter. At first phase, 235 CATS is planned to integrate ANKA MALE UAV. If It is integrated on Atak, The performance parameters of copter will be advanced as well.

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## T-123456

@cabatli_53 bro need to get in touch with you,can you pm me?
Sent you a pm on trd ,can you look into that?ty.


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## RAMPAGE

I want a dedicated squadron just for the SSG and FC !!!


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## Fahad Khan 2

If there is TOT them go for T-129 and if not go for China because they give us on soft loan....

Case Dismissed....


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## razgriz19

our cobras are falling of the skies very frequently now. A decision must be made as soon as possible!


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## cabatli_53



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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

razgriz19 said:


> our cobras are falling of the skies very frequently now. A decision must be made as soon as possible!


yaar why is our Pak.army taking so much long to decide about what is so badly needed for our pilots ... ??


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## cabatli_53

- Turkey produced critical parts like high composite helicopter blades. Production of Atak Transmission is also inside of Turkish responsibility.
- The helicopter body is an assembly of 6400 parts, 6200 parts are manufactured in Turkey.

1-Atak reached 556km range in trials.
2-Max speed noted in trials is 290km/h.

Both parameters are more than expected...

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## Neptune

cabatli_53 said:


> - Turkey produced critical parts like high composite helicopter blades. Production of Atak Transmission is also inside of Turkish responsibility.
> - The helicopter body is an assembly of 6400 parts, 6200 parts are manufactured in Turkey.
> 
> 1-Atak reached 556km range in trials.
> 2-Max speed noted in trials is 290km/h.
> 
> Both parameters are more than expected...



Hey man. Does ATAK and ANKA have Link 11/16 integration?


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## RAMPAGE

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> yaar why is our Pak.army taking so much long to decide about what is so badly needed for our pilots ... ??


Just wait a little more, both T-129 and WZ-10 are underdevelopment as of now.


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## cabatli_53

RAMPAGE said:


> Just wait a little more, both T-129 and WZ-10 are underdevelopment as of now.



Deliveries began in this week.


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## RAMPAGE

cabatli_53 said:


> Deliveries began in this week.


What about the weight issue ???


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## cabatli_53

Neptune said:


> Hey man. Does ATAK and ANKA have Link 11/16 integration?




Yes...



RAMPAGE said:


> What about the weight issue ???



The problems fixed on prototypes and Acceptance trials are completed step by step succesfully.

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## RAMPAGE

cabatli_53 said:


> Yes...
> 
> 
> 
> The problems fixed on prototypes and Acceptance trials are completed step by step succesfully.


Great  

Now what's new on T-129B ??? MMW radar and a new flir ..... yes ???


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## cabatli_53

RAMPAGE said:


> Great
> 
> Now what's new on T-129B ??? MMW radar and a new flir ..... yes ???




STM Active moving map, ODS (Obstacle detection system), HelMildar (MMW radar), maybe CATS FLIR, Mizrak-U and Cirit missiles firing capability...etc

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## RAMPAGE

cabatli_53 said:


> STM Active moving map, ODS (Obstacle detection system), HelMildar (MMW radar), maybe CATS FLIR, Mizrak-U and Cirit missiles firing capability...etc


Details of EW suite will be much appreciated !!!

Don't bother, i got it !!!


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## Gryphon

*Air International* (May 2014)
Vol. 86 No. 5
Page: 82

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## Jango

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> *Air International* (May 2014)
> Vol. 86 No. 5
> Page: 82



That is a very interesting and perhaps unique way of feeding the MG.


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## waz

I can't wait to see this in service with the army.

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## nomi007

FORGOT T-129 AND WZ-10 
WE ARE GOING TO ADD MIL MI-28 
Analysts Welcome Russian Decision on Arms Sales To Pakistan | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## Gentelman

nomi007 said:


> FORGOT T-129 AND WZ-10
> WE ARE GOING TO ADD MIL MI-28
> Analysts Welcome Russian Decision on Arms Sales To Pakistan | Defense News | defensenews.com


I see this nothing but just a blackmail to US to provide us with more advanced Attack helos...
PA will adopt Ruskies hellos just for transportation or gunship role + spares & RD-93MA!
We don't expect more than that from Ruskies at the moment.


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## nomi007

Gentelman said:


> I see this nothing but just a blackmail to US to provide us with more advanced Attack helos...
> PA will adopt Ruskies hellos just for transportation or gunship role + spares & RD-93MA!
> We don't expect more than that from Ruskies at the moment.


usa will not offers us apache or ah-1z due to chinese thread 




mil will be more suitable and deadly option

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## cabatli_53

First three T129 Atak is delivered to Turkish Land Forces

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## cabatli_53

You can watch all details of delivery ceremony including T129 Atak development documentary with production/trial processes in that video...

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## Kompromat

Power to you Turkey.

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## cabatli_53

According to Undersecretariat of Turkish defence industry regarding first deliveries (First 10 T129 EDH helicopters),


-42 different avionic systems are manufactured by Turkish Defence Industry
-6200 parts of total 6400 Atak body are manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industry
-Rotors are manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industry
-Sole T-129 Atak manufacturing center of the World are established in Turkey. This center will produce Atak's for not only Turkey but also export markets as sole supplier.
-With Atak project, TUSAS first time charged as main contactor of such a big scale program as system integrator, whole product manufacturer/engineering and overall logistic supply/training/test and support responsible.
-Avonic central control computers, AVCI helmet mounted display, Target detection and targetting system, Navigation system, Global positioning system with other navigational, mission, command, signting, communication, electronic warfare, weapon control devices are under responsibility of Aselsan for Turkey and export markets.


-In addition, T-129 B (Following productions) will have Aselsan produced HF and V/UHF radios, radar warning system, radar jamming system, lazer warning system and some other electronic warfare devices along with STM developed moving map. T-129 B variant will be able to launch Roketsan developed Mizrak-U and Cirit missiles along with Stingers.

In following productions at T-129B, Transmission systems are also going to be manufactured by Turkey.

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## Kompromat

Pakistan's financial issues are holding this beast from joining our colors. Maybe some time in the future.

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## cabatli_53

R&D process of advanced production technics like magnesium moulding for Atak transmission are being developed at present.








Aeronaut said:


> Pakistan's financial issues are holding this beast from joining our colors. Maybe some time in the future.




Bro, Top industry officials including PM is telling Atak to be Turkey's biggest export success in a short time. All those speeches are indication of a finalised agreement on minds which is being prepared for a fancy signiture ceremony with related country after first deliveries are done to Turkish Army. It will be one of Azerbaijan (60 Atak is mentioned for them) and Pakistan...

Aselsan AVCI HMDU

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## Kompromat

Lets see if it turns out to be true. I really want to see ATAKs in PAA. 

@cabatli_53

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## Gentelman

nomi007 said:


> usa will not offers us apache or ah-1z due to chinese thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mil will be more suitable and deadly option


They will not coz they just are following motto of "Nasso."
If they needed us they would have replaced Cobra fleet but now they are just cold hearted business men to us!
China was never a threat it's an excuse.....
We use our machines ourselves and PA helis don't participate in any exercise.
We just don't have enough $$$s..


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## Casus Belli



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## Informant

Fulcrum15 said:


> That is a very interesting and perhaps unique way of feeding the MG.



Minimum space required for gun mechanism.


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## JonAsad

Fulcrum15 said:


> That is a very interesting and perhaps unique way of feeding the MG.


 one hit can disable this feeding mechanism-


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## Asena_Y

Coolest selfie ever by a T-129A pilot, taken today during the service entrance ceremony.

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## Quwa

Aeronaut said:


> Lets see if it turns out to be true. I really want to see ATAKs in PAA.
> 
> @cabatli_53


Ultimately, I think PAA will procure T-129, albeit perhaps slowly and over the long-term (10-15 years) in small batches, e.g. 3 here, 6 there, 4 next, etc. Of course, things would catch up if it weren't for fighting in Waziristan or America's double standard policy interference.

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## cabatli_53

Atak weapon ranges

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## DrWatson775

I would like to see T129 with PA. However this is unlikely as the powerplant (LHTEC CTS800) is US/UK export. It would be too much of a hassle (redesign/testing etc) to fit the chinese WZ9 turboshaft into the T129. Better go for CAIC WZ10 when able with modification per PA requirements.


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## cabatli_53



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## cabatli_53



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## cabatli_53

T129A

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## LordTyrannus

This chopper is a catastroph.

It was designed as a light attack helicopter without a main canon and limited engine power and lift capacity. Later the italians put a 20mm canon onto it to use it in Iraq against insurgents. The Italian military was not pleased and abondoned the A129 model for a improoved A129 International model.

Turks take the weak airframe of the rejected A129 basemodel and put a heavy flir (Turkish made junk) on it, a too strong US engine and pylons with way too much carryload for this small structure.

The structure is so stressed, that after every flight bolts come loose and the main rotor shakes the whole airframe. Thats because turks were not able to make any design changes in the airframe. They lack the most simple engineering capabilities.

And than they come here and boost about such inferior platforms. I am sure no country ever will purchase this failed plattform, beside turkish army.


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## cabatli_53

LordTyrannus said:


> The structure is so stressed, that after every flight bolts come loose and the main rotor shakes the whole airframe. Thats because turks were not able to make any design changes in the airframe. They lack the most simple engineering capabilities.
> 
> And than they come here and boost about such inferior platforms. I am sure no country ever will purchase this failed plattform, beside turkish army.




A pain is clear but Can you provide a source which is underlining "The structure is so stressed, that after every flight bolts come loose and the main rotor shakes the whole airframe. Thats because turks were not able to make any design changes in the airframe. They lack the most simple engineering capabilities" ?



> Turks take the weak airframe of the rejected A129 basemodel and put a heavy flir (Turkish made junk) on it, a too strong US engine and pylons with way too much carryload for this small structure.



"Junk" term mostly used to describe Russian systems among NATO countries. A 2nd generation FLIR all around the world weigh similar kg's. Nothing special for Turkish Flir.

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## Luftwaffe

cabatli_53 said:


> "Junk" term mostly used to describe Russian systems among NATO countries. A 2nd generation FLIR all around the world weight similar kg's. Nothing special for Turkish Flir.



Lol he has no source. A129 is one of the successful programs, A/T-129 comes second to AH-64 even the Tiger struggles to come at No 3, we know T-129 Airframe/Armor is strengthen high level of crashworthiness and ballistic tolerance provide high battlefield survivability.

Just don't feed the troll.

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## turkbordobereli



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## Khaqan Humayun




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Please......

let it sink in there will be no Cobras No ApAcheeeeee...

There will be be no Turkish helicopters (the chopper is not even in serial production)


Enjoy the pulao however

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## C130

why didn't Turkey go for a 30mm cannon instead of the M197?


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## Super Falcon

Welll i dont see them coming to PA

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## Ahmad Iqbal

(Y) Awesome


----------



## Knight Rider

*TAI/AgustaWestland T129*






The *TAI/AgustaWestland T129* is an attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta. The T129 was developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), with AgustaWestland as the primary partner. The helicopter is designed for hot and high environments.

The ATAK programme was begun to meet the Turkish Armed Forces' requirements for an attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopter. The T129 is the result of the integration of Turkish developed high-tech avionics and weapon systems onto the combat proven AgustaWestland A129 airframe, with upgraded engines, transmission and rotor blades. It is in use by the Turkish Army, and is being offered to other air forces.






The ATAK programme was begun to meet the Turkish Armed Forces' requirements for an attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopter. Turkey announced on 30 March 2007 that it had decided to negotiate with AgustaWestland to co-develop and produce 51 (with 40 options) attack helicopters based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta.Based on the AW129, the helicopter is to be assembled in Turkey by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) as the T-129. A contract was signed on 7 September 2007 worth $1.2 billion. Turkey's attack helicopter project is named "ATAK".

On 22 June 2008, the agreement between TUSAS Aerospace Industries (TAI) and AgustaWestland formally entered into force. Under the agreement, TAI will develop an indigenous mission computer, avionics, weapons systems, self-protection suites and the helmet-mounting cuing systems. Tusaş Engine Industries (TEI) will manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-4Nengines under licence. Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T-129 platform; Turkey can export or transfer of the platform to third countries, excluding Italy and the United Kingdom.

The T129 was optimized for hot and high conditions. It has several key improvements over the original A129 inline with the requirements of the Turkish Army. The T129 will carry 12 Roketsan-developed UMTAS anti-tank missiles (Turkish indigenous development similar to Hellfire II). It will use the more powerful LHTEC T800 (CTS800-4) engine.

The T129 features a 20 mm gatling-style cannon in a nose turret. It can carry a combination of 70 mm rocket pods, Stinger air-air missile pods, and gun pods on its stub wing pylons.

On 16 July 2007, the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (TUBITAK), Meteksan Savunma Sanayii AŞ and Bilkent University formed a consortium for the development of an advanced millimetre wave radar (MILDAR), similar to the Longbow and the IAI/ELTA radars. It is planned that the radar will enter service in mid-2009. The MILDAR project was successfully completed in February 2012.

A media report indicates that one helicopter will be kept by the Turkish Ministry of Defense and used as a test-bed for systems development. The remaining 50 helicopters will be delivered to the Turkish Army. An optional 40 more T129 helicopters will be produced if necessary.These 50 T129s are to be designated T129B.

On 28 September 2009, the T129's maiden flight took placed when P1 prototype flew at AgustaWestland's facilities in Vergiate, Italy.

In November 2010, Turkey ordered an additional nine T129 helicopters to increase its total ordered to 60. These T129s are to meet an urgent operational requirement for the Turkish Army and will be built by TAI for delivery in 2012, one year before the start of delivery the previously ordered 51 helicopters. These T129s are designated T129A, as they lack advanced anti-tank missiles. As a result of project delays, the T129As were to enter service in 2013.


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## BaybarsHan




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## SRBM2

C130 said:


> why didn't Turkey go for a 30mm cannon instead of the M197?



Well for such a lightweight of Attack Helicopter and seeing how far front the M197 gatling gun is, exchanging it for a 30mm auto cannon would result in same and even worse problems than the Tiger helicopters have.

The Tiger is already very light weight helicopter and has its 30mm M781 Nexter 30, it was reported to have created enorm vibrations when firing it off-bore and even cracks at the fuselage and gun mounting have been recognized to occure after a while. This one of the things i critizes about the Tiger, higher calibre doesn't make sense when it brings more problems than solutions and when Tiger operating countries are stupid enough to adopt COIN mission and strike profiles they should go with 20mm GIAT weapons which have even better accuracy and would not make the entire off-bore engagements to a ridiculous amount of ammunition wasting.

And the main use of auto cannons are mainly soft target anway no need trying to go for higher calibre that won't be able to crack tanks anyway. It is actually very wise decision to stay with 20mm gun on such small and leight weight helicopter. The M197 will already make enough trouble to let turky deal with it. Guns regardless how you mount them make always troubles and having a gun like A/T-129 right beneath EO ball is already enough work to deal with the vibrations, gyrostabilized EO ball or not.

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## nomi007

need to speedup the deal


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## SRBM2

Luftwaffe said:


> Lol he has no source. A129 is one of the successful programs, A/T-129 comes second to AH-64 even the Tiger struggles to come at No 3, we know T-129 Airframe/Armor is strengthen high level of crashworthiness and ballistic tolerance provide high battlefield survivability.
> 
> Just don't feed the troll.



Haha A/T-129 are beneath Tiger, beneath any attack Helicopter that is out there. The fact that Turkey had to buy A-129 because it was the absolutley only Attack Helicopter where they could get ToT license. If US,Russia or EU offered ToT license for Apache,Cobra,Hind,Havoc,Hocum or Tiger they would go for any of those helicopters than A-129. Light Attack Helicopters are not even in same league of the heavy attack helicopters.
Yes the airframe is the worst of all listed above and turkey wanted ToT license because turkey sees the necessity to develope their Military Industrial Complex that is why they need technologies and bought of several technologies and even failed or canceled projects and now develope them for only one purpose to develope their MIC capabilities to get self suficient, not because each of this technology is so "high quality".

But a very good joke A/T-129 to even compare it with heavy attack helicopters.


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## Basel

T-129 with full TOT for PAA is now in final negotiations as I have received this news from 2 different army officers on twitter, one of which is a PAA pilot and also a Turkish member here on PDF once posted that PAA will get version 2 of it with rotor mounted radar and capability to carry AAMs.

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## Hurter

Yeh kab ho rha hai waise?


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## Basel

Junaid B said:


> Yeh kab ho rha hai waise?



don't know time frame hope this deal go through it will be big boost in our defensive & offensive capabilities as it comes with potent weapons which PAA don't have now.

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## cabatli_53

T129 Atak-A first time in a real Turkish Army exercise called Atis Serbest...

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## Basel

cabatli_53 said:


> T129 Atak-A first time in a real Turkish Army exercise called Atis Serbest...



An army officer posted an awesome video on twitter of this bird made by the manufacturer, unable to post it here.

Pakistan Army seems to be very satisfied with T-129 and package Turkey is offering, what you know about the deal which is in final phase of negotiations? what version will PAA get? if i m not wrong you once posted that Pakistani version will be version 2 which will have MMW radar mounted on rotor like Apache and capability to carry AAM like AIM-9.


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## Sulman Badshah

Basel said:


> T-129 with full TOT for PAA is now in final negotiations as I have received this news from 2 different army officers on twitter, one of which is a PAA pilot and also a Turkish member here on PDF once posted that PAA will get version 2 of it with rotor mounted radar and capability to carry AAMs.


CAn you post the tweets here ???


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## Basel

Sulman Badshah said:


> CAn you post the tweets here ???



I had posted one but MOD did not approved it, don't know why?

Here it is again, it also have link of a awesome video on T-129.

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## Sulman Badshah

Basel said:


> , it also have link of a awesome video on T-129.


Thanks bro 

I have gone through his profile in twitter but can't open the video .... How can i open it ???


----------



## Basel

Sulman Badshah said:


> Thanks bro
> I have gone through his profile in twitter but can't open the video .... How can i open it ???



Did you go through your twitter account? because i saw it through my twitter account but was not able to download it.

He has commanded tank squadron and also performed duties on different places so he has good knowledge and experience therefore I asked him about many issues raised here.


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## Sulman Badshah

Basel said:


> Did you go through your twitter account? because i saw it through my twitter account but was not able to download it.


Yes i have gone through the twitter account ... Can't play the video 
(I can't retweet him) or can't watch the video


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## Basel

Sulman Badshah said:


> Yes i have gone through the twitter account ... Can't play the video
> (I can't retweet him) or can't watch the video



did you follow him on twitter??


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## Sulman Badshah

Basel said:


> did you follow him on twitter??


currently no ... I think following him will solve the problem i guess


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## xxxKULxxx

I couldn't watch the video so i don't know if i watched it before so guys can you please show that video to me & others too ?.. I don't have a twitter account...


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## Basel

Sulman Badshah said:


> currently no ... I think following him will solve the problem i guess



yes, you have to follow on twitter to access pics and videos in feed.

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## cabatli_53

Basel said:


> An army officer posted an awesome video on twitter of this bird made by the manufacturer, unable to post it here.
> 
> Pakistan Army seems to be very satisfied with T-129 and package Turkey is offering, what you know about the deal which is in final phase of negotiations? what version will PAA get? if i m not wrong you once posted that Pakistani version will be version 2 which will have MMW radar mounted on rotor like Apache and capability to carry AAM like AIM-9.




No, I don't have infmation regarding current statues of Pakistan-Turkey negotiations for Atak-B. 

Heavy Electronic Warfare Counter Measure deices of Aselsan called HEWS which T-129 Atak-B variant is going to get. Atak-B will be like a real fighter which have 360 degree sensors and devices all around the fuselage to provide the best surveillance and avareness opportunities to pilots... Centra comupters process all threats automatically and perform appropriate action When It is needed...

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## I <3 PAK ARMY

i hope PAKISTAN get it from brother muslim country...

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## Interceptor2014

The single most best option is to signed a deal with US to supply their 50 ex-AC-130s with upgrade to PAA/PAF and don't go for anything else...


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## The Great One

Interceptor2014 said:


> The single most best option is to signed a deal with US to supply their 50 ex-AC-130s with upgrade to PAA/PAF and don't go for anything else...


Why stop there, ask for retired/soon to be retired A-10's. Also add SR-71 and F-117 for good measure. Maybe even USS Kitty Hawk and USS Enterprise along with F-14's.

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## Basel

Interceptor2014 said:


> The single most best option is to signed a deal with US to supply their 50 ex-AC-130s with upgrade to PAA/PAF and don't go for anything else...



Those will be good for COIN but PAF will not be able to use them, the way PAA can use attach helicopters against well equipped IA which will be having CAS from IAF.



The Great One said:


> Why stop there, ask for retired/soon to be retired A-10's.



To be honest I have raised this issue with US Defense department on twitter to provide those EDA to Pakistan as we are non NATO ally and have right to have them to fight with TTP and its associated groups. As usual they are silent.

They may not like to provide them as they will be very effective against any Indian Armour thrust in Pakistan.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Arrival of Assets of Turkish Helicopter would take while , as these have not been inducted in Turkish military in huge numbers

The helicopter thing is still hovering in air and refuses to land on way or another

Russian Helicopter Gunships are a realistic option no doubt 80%-95%
US EDA in 2015 - 30%, we do know promises were made
Turkish TOT for Heclicopter - 1% because the helicopter has not even been inducted in Turkey

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## revojam

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The Arrival of Assets of Turkish Helicopter would take while , as these have not been inducted in Turkish military in huge numbers
> 
> The helicopter thing is still hovering in air and refuses to land on way or another
> 
> Russian Helicopter Gunships are a realistic option no doubt


A little note : It will take 2016 to start mass production of final model.Currently 9 early delivery models manufactured and delivered but since development of final model is not over yet its mass production did not start.

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## T-123456

revojam said:


> A little note : It will take 2016 to start mass production of final model.Currently 9 early delivery models manufactured and delivered but since development of final model is not over yet its mass production did not start.


Like everything we start(military equipment),it takes ages before the final model is ready


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## nomi007

long silent from both sides
shows that deal had been cancel


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## Ahmad Iqbal

<3


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Ankhon hi ankhon main ishara mil giya , contract ki kiya zirurat hai


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## Aamir Hussain

Basel said:


> Those will be good for COIN but PAF will not be able to use them, the way PAA can use attach helicopters against well equipped IA which will be having CAS from IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest I have raised this issue with US Defense department on twitter to provide those EDA to Pakistan as we are non NATO ally and have right to have them to fight with TTP and its associated groups. As usual they are silent.
> 
> They may not like to provide them as they will be very effective against any Indian Armour thrust in Pakistan.


They will not respond to you on Twitter my friend!!!

Already help is being given in the shape of enhanced night surveillance and targeting equipment now installed on three C130's! The training has been given by US to PAF operators.

This night acquisition and targeting effort has helped carry out surgical strikes by both Cobras and F-16's in the night and have been very effective in limiting non combatant casualties and collateral damage.

This effort has been in combo with ground informants, sometimes sitting in the a/c and pointing out targets on monitors in the cargo bay!!!

The equipment is able to identify and read number plates from an altitude of ten thousand feet, in the night!!!

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## Arsalan

nomi007 said:


> long silent from both sides
> shows that deal had been cancel


there never was a DEAL so that it can be canceled. Pakistan have SHOWN interest in T-129 but with only a very few pre - mass production models in service with Turkey and the T-129B (the final model) still to be inducted we wont be seeing anything happening soon. T-129 is state of the art machine and even if we can get it in three four years it will be a massive gain in our military capabilities. For now, it seems that PA is looking towards Russia for a few gunships in the ongoing operation against Taliban. 



Aamir Hussain said:


> They will not respond to you on Twitter my friend!!!
> 
> Already help is being given in the shape of enhanced night surveillance and targeting equipment now installed on three C130's! The training has been given by US to PAF operators.


Are you telling we have *three* of these now? we know about one at least!
These are only performing Survellience and target designation duties right? no gunship role.

Here is a few months old news:


> *Pakistan To Upgrade C-130 Fleet, US DSCA Tells Congress *
> The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for a C-130 Fleet Upgrade Program for an estimated cost of $100 million.
> 
> The upgrade will allow continued operation of the Pakistan’s Air Force C-130 fleet (five C-130B and eleven C-130E models) for counter-insurgency/counter-terrorism flights; regional humanitarian operations; troop transport; and Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) missions within Pakistan and in the region, according to the statement.
> Pakistan To Upgrade C-130 Fleet, US DSCA Tells Congress



Anyways, getting back on topic, for now i feel PA will have to make do with old Cobra's, these C-130s, PAF support, MAY BE a few Russian beasts. For T-129, even if we get them it will have to wait for three four years at least and i personally think it will still be worth it.

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## fatman17

i expect Mi-35's before T-129's

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> i expect Mi-35's before T-129's


Exactly. Mi-35 are much more refined acquisition and will fill in the numbers and a pretty decent platform for the current role we are seeking to buy choppers for (anti-insurgency duties and war against Taliban) 
As mentioned above, T-129, is acquired, wont be before three four years at least and even then the technology is worth it that it still will be a massive gain in our military capabilities if we get that in four five years time. Even Turkey is not going to get Mass production models (T129B) before 2016 (another two years) so if we can get these around 2018 that will be great and will be very effective battle system against organized army, if you know what i mean


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## Aamir Hussain

Three are equipped and are being extensively used in conjunction with Cobras and F-16's for night surgical strikes.

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## Basel

Aamir Hussain said:


> They will not respond to you on Twitter my friend!!!
> Already help is being given in the shape of enhanced night surveillance and targeting equipment now installed on three C130's! The training has been given by US to PAF operators.
> This night acquisition and targeting effort has helped carry out surgical strikes by both Cobras and F-16's in the night and have been very effective in limiting non combatant casualties and collateral damage.
> This effort has been in combo with ground informants, sometimes sitting in the a/c and pointing out targets on monitors in the cargo bay!!!
> The equipment is able to identify and read number plates from an altitude of ten thousand feet, in the night!!!



I know that, but it need more resources to commit for a mission whereas dedicated systems like A-10s, Apaches (AH-64-D/E) can take several hits but still do the job, while having all capabilities of F-16s & C-130 to do CAS / COIN and PAF will not be able to commit C-130s in war with India for recce missions it will be suicide to send them as India have very good air defense and can to venture in our air space.


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## Aamir Hussain

My friend US is not arming us to fight a war with India. We keep on looking at military purchases from that perspective while fighting a insurgency!

IMHO, conventional warfare with India is no longer an option for both countries. Any confrontation, now will quickly escalate to a limited nuclear exchange. furthermore, in any border skirmish, both sides will hesitate to commit air assets that will logically lead to an escalation.

Therefore, without shoulder fired missiles or heavy AAA, what we have on the ground is good enough to fight a COIN ops. Yes, as rightly pointed out in this thread, we need to upgrade our Attack Helo fleet because that will form the pivot of the whole COIN ops. and the this war is not going to go away in a year or two depending on what happens in our neighborhood.

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Exactly. Mi-35 are much more refined acquisition and will fill in the numbers and a pretty decent platform for the current role we are seeking to buy choppers for (anti-insurgency duties and war against Taliban)
> As mentioned above, T-129, is acquired, wont be before three four years at least and even then the technology is worth it that it still will be a massive gain in our military capabilities if we get that in four five years time. Even Turkey is not going to get Mass production models (T129B) before 2016 (another two years) so if we can get these around 2018 that will be great and will be very effective battle system against organized army, if you know what i mean


 
plus Mi-35 is multi-role. it can insert / drop special forces.

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## Hyperion

Logical post in a long long time! 



Aamir Hussain said:


> My friend US is not arming us to fight a war with India. We keep on looking at military purchases from that perspective while fighting a insurgency!
> 
> IMHO, conventional warfare with India is no longer an option for both countries. Any confrontation, now will quickly escalate to a limited nuclear exchange. furthermore, in any border skirmish, both sides will hesitate to commit air assets that will logically lead to an escalation.
> 
> Therefore, without shoulder fired missiles or heavy AAA, what we have on the ground is good enough to fight a COIN ops. Yes, as rightly pointed out in this thread, we need to upgrade our Attack Helo fleet because that will form the pivot of the whole COIN ops. and the this war is not going to go away in a year or two depending on what happens in our neighborhood.


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## Hakan

*T-129 Brochure
































Indigenous Guided Missiles Used on T-129









*​

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## SRBM2

Had to laugh when i read "Deep Strike and SEAD" missions...

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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> plus Mi-35 is multi-role. it can insert / drop special forces.



Even west is going for their own NG version of Mi-35 but with stealth features and some inspiration from Ka-50/52 rotars.






Sikorsky S-97 RAIDER™ Helicopter - The Next Big Thing In Army Aviation

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## SRBM2

Basel said:


> Even west is going for their own NG version of Mi-35 but with stealth features and some inspiration from Ka-50/52 rotars.
> 
> View attachment 136754
> 
> 
> Sikorsky S-97 RAIDER™ Helicopter - The Next Big Thing In Army Aviation



Except that S-97 can not performe direct high intensity firefights like Mi-35 could.

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## Basel

SRBM2 said:


> Except that S-97 can not performe direct high intensity firefights like Mi-35 could.



It can do that but I think it can not carry enough weapons load like Mi-35s, but it has very low RCS with low noise of rotors which will allow it do mission well if in good and well trained hands.


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## SRBM2

Basel said:


> It can do that but I think it can not carry enough weapons load like Mi-35s, but it has very low RCS with low noise of rotors which will allow it do mission well if in good and well trained hands.



Without having armor you will not be capable or suited to the slightest to participate in high intense combats. High intense combats include Anti Aircraft weaponary and plattforms, and having no armor will disquilify you from SEAD and CAS missions automatically.


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## Basel

SRBM2 said:


> Without having armor you will not be capable or suited to the slightest to participate in high intense combats. High intense combats include Anti Aircraft weaponary and plattforms, and having no armor will disquilify you from SEAD and CAS missions automatically.



Helicopter are not used for SEAD and it depand what kind of CAS is needed or available and how to utilize it with Hell Fire 2 missiles on board it can remain at safe distance and hit armor but its not its primary job, it will be mostly used for armed recce, high altitude ops, troops armed insertions, spec ops etc. remember it is fastest helicopter in terms of speed and has low RCS and IR signature. It will be good asset (if available) for Pakistan Army as they need helicopters in previously mentioned roles.


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## SRBM2

Basel said:


> Helicopter are not used for SEAD and it depand what kind of CAS is needed or available and how to utilize it with Hell Fire 2 missiles on board it can remain at safe distance and hit armor but its not its primary job, it will be mostly used for armed recce, high altitude ops, troops armed insertions, spec ops etc. remember it is fastest helicopter in terms of speed and has low RCS and IR signature. It will be good asset (if available) for Pakistan Army as they need helicopters in previously mentioned roles.



It just can not and will never be used for high intense combat that would contradict with "recon" missions and its purpose it was build for. You don't build mortars and then use them for frontline direct fire against enemies, they have to performe in their boundaries to be used effectivley. And Helicopters do performe SEAD missions in some cases but usually need HARM weapons.
About IR/RCS signature so far can only be speculated there quite a few helicopters that have lowered RCS and all major helicopter plattforms operating at front line have RAM painting, not to mention that RCS is only to certain degree relevant on helicopters since NoE flight already renders most radars useless or decreases their capability to detect helicopters greatly and even in direct visual contact most pulse doppler radars are filtering the reflected radar waves from the helicopter as clutter from trees and other obstacles.
Excuse my rather soberness as long i don't see it's final form with all bits and bolts added to it so it can be used for actual military missions.


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## cabatli_53

Turkish Land Forces introduced T129 Atak-A copters entered into inventory.

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## nomi007



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## SRBM2

Nice pictures.
What engine filters does it use, because it does not seem to be vortex filters?

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## Faraz5000

Guyssss..!! any updates regarding Russian Mi-35 Attack Heli's deal with Pakistan...??


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## -SINAN-

Cockpit view.

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## Irfan Baloch

Sinan said:


> Cockpit view.


cant get any better. super and sleak

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## Kompromat

Irfan Baloch said:


> cant get any better. super ans sleak



What does your Cobra riding Taliban eating friend say about this bad boy?


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## Irfan Baloch

Horus said:


> What does your Cobra riding Taliban eating friend say about this bad boy?


I have to meet him. he is actually my father's friend and he was recalled (from retirement) to join a STF (special task force) as a Cobra gunship pilot. last time we met was 2 years ago and I didn't get to talk much but I am sure he will only have praise for this beauty which is like a cobra on steroids.

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## Kompromat

Irfan Baloch said:


> I have to meet him. he is actually my father's friend and he was recalled (from retirement) to join a STF (special task force) as a Cobra gunship pilot. last time we met was 2 years ago and I didn't get to talk much but I am sure he will only have praise for this beauty which is like a cobra on steroids.



We need some expert opinion and some tid bit as if we are proceeding with the sale or not. This is the ideal replacement for our Cobras!


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## TOPGUN

We need to have a section / thread to honor our Cobra gunship pilots hardly any info nor pic's are out their about them specially given the fact that they risk their lives everyday to fly to kill these cowards . Back to the topic I agree with Horus we need to understand and know if there is ever going to be a deal or not and if not then what else is on the table.

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## madmusti

You should think that Turkey has not follow an political goal if comes to a Deal between Turkey & Pakistan.

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## IHK_PK

If this Govt.. can not fetch a deal on T 129 with willing Turks yet, then it means they were actually waiting for positive answers from moody Russians on Mi helos.


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## Basel

IHK_PK said:


> If this Govt.. can not fetch a deal on T 129 with willing Turks yet, then it means they were actually waiting for positive answers from moody Russians on Mi helos.



But Mi-35 is not meant to replace Cobras, even if Russia agree to sale Mi-28Ns even then T-129 with full production and weapons TOT will be much better to have.

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## T-123456

Basel said:


> But Mi-35 is not meant to replace Cobras, even if Russia agree to sale Mi-28Ns even then T-129 with full production and weapons TOT will be much better to have.


If there is a country that will get a good deal,it will be Pakistan.
The only obstacle if ever will be the engine but im sure they will find a solution for that in time.
We just need to wait for the T-129 to mature.

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## Basel

T-123456 said:


> If there is a country that will get a good deal,it will be Pakistan.
> The only obstacle if ever will be the engine but im sure they will find a solution for that in time.
> We just need to wait for the T-129 to mature.



It has been rumored that T-129 will come with local production line if deal is signed and also weapons like UMTAS & Cirit will be produced locally. Whereas if we go for Mi-28Ns no matter how good they are, we will be handicapped in all major aspects like numbers can't be increased as required, can't rebuild or overhaul and weapons had to be purchased continuously which means prone to sanctions.

PAA pilots have tested the bird and they like it.


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## IHK_PK

So.....Two things might stopping us...... one is, its American/European parts and engine. second is, its not a proven platform like Mi 35. U have the example of RD 93 for JF17. we r still getting them in our AC's rather trusting any other chines engine.


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## T-123456

Basel said:


> It has been rumored that T-129 will come with local production line if deal is signed and also weapons like UMTAS & Cirit will be produced locally. Whereas if we go for Mi-28Ns no matter how good they are, we will be handicapped in all major aspects like numbers can't be increased as required, can't rebuild or overhaul and weapons had to be purchased continuously which means prone to sanctions.
> 
> PAA pilots have tested the bird and they like it.


Patience,let them build the T-129B first,then everything will be easier and more affordable.


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## Armstrong

T-123456 said:


> Patience,let them build the T-129B first,then everything will be easier and more affordable.



Just say it out; you get a fat commission on every T-129 that is sold !

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## T-123456

Armstrong said:


> Just say it out; you get a fat commission on every T-129 that is sold !


We dont take money from our brothers but hey how should a bigboned(Fat) Kashmiri know that,his brother is McDonalds,KFC and all the other fast food places.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Basel said:


> It has been rumored that T-129 will come with local production line if deal is signed and also weapons like UMTAS & Cirit will be produced locally. Whereas if we go for Mi-28Ns no matter how good they are, we will be handicapped in all major aspects like numbers can't be increased as required, can't rebuild or overhaul and weapons had to be purchased continuously which means prone to sanctions.
> 
> PAA pilots have tested the bird and they like it.



details would be good if u have some ?


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## subanday

Pakistan getting Mi-35 yippy


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## Basel

@MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n @T-123456 I just asked PAA pilot again on same issue and asked him which system is better Mi-28N or T-129 for Pakistan and he replied T-129.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Basel said:


> @MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n @T-123456 I just asked PAA pilot again on same issue and asked him which system is better Mi-28N or T-129 for Pakistan and he replied T-129.
> 
> View attachment 155625


so nice of you bro. for your effort & time ... 
i felt happy to know the likings of PakisTan army aviation ...

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## T-123456

Basel said:


> @MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n @T-123456 I just asked PAA pilot again on same issue and asked him which system is better Mi-28N or T-129 for Pakistan and he replied T-129.
> 
> View attachment 155625


Can you ask him again,and this time CAIC Z-10 against the T-129,you might be going for the Z-10?


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## Basel

@T-123456 He is the one who told me that PAA may be getting T-129 as future main attack helicopter as PAA pilots have tested it extensively and final negotiations are going on, but can't say anything on the deal as we have very corrupt leaders who can shelve or hamper any deal. To my understanding after discussing with him it looks PAA have made their mind and they want T-129 as they say it suits PAA requirement well and will come with TOT even for weapons which now Pakistan don't produce.

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## T-123456

Basel said:


> @T-123456 He is the one who told me that PAA may be getting T-129 as future main attack helicopter as PAA pilots have tested it extensively and final negotiations are going on, but can't say anything on the deal as we have very corrupt leaders who can shelve or hamper any deal. To my understanding after discussing with him it looks PAA have made their mind and they want T-129 as they say it suits PAA requirement well and will come with TOT even for weapons which now Pakistan don't produce.


Fortunately have all the weapons you need but it still depends on your leaders cause they could opt for the Z-10(cheaper).
We just have to wait,i guess.

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## Golden Eagle 007

Horus said:


> View attachment 110802


looks like concept photographs


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## HAIDER

TAI signed MOU for 129 . Let see where it goes.

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## HRK

HAIDER said:


> TAI signed MOU for 129 . Let see where it goes.



with whom .... detail plz ... ???

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## HAIDER

HRK said:


> with whom .... detail plz ... ???


Pak ministry of defence.

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## xxxKULxxx

HAIDER said:


> TAI signed MOU for 129 . Let see where it goes.



Really ?.. Or is something about Mushshak & HÜRKUŞ ?..

@cabatli_53 @xenon54 @T-123456 @Targon @Ahiska @BronzePlaque @TurAr @atatwolf @asena_great @Asena_Y @rmi5@Baykuş @olcayto @Hakan @Combat-Master @xxxKULxxx @Hyperion @Rumelia @mrexil @telkon @Timur @Wave @u.MP@Islamic faith&Secularism @El-Turco @Yeni Kuyu @what @revojam @Kamil-Baku @Azeri440 @ASQ-1918 @faheka@Seyfullah @MertKaan @Akıncı @[TR]AHMET @damm1t @tesla @Casus Belli @MrTopal27 @Sinan @Quasar @Oublious@hacksquat @anatolia @Charon 2 @ozi2000 @LegionnairE @BordoEnes @N.Ozkan @XILLAX @turkbordobereli@golgelerprensi @fighting sparrow @Trick2UAV @BaybarsHan @Alienoz_TR @meral @hopeful73 @mehmet75 @altor@mert can
@The Commander @AVCI @manowar @Hexciter @yakusha @otriz @Timur @Vatoz @F-15I @yason
@R.A.K
@deadmau5e
@madmusti
@KemalPasa
@FutureMe
@kardeş
@Stimpy75
@Nefer
@KingWest @Turkish_FR

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## Targon

xxxKULxxx said:


> Really ?.. Or is something about Mushshak & HÜRKUŞ ?..
> 
> @cabatli_53 @xenon54 @T-123456 @Targon @Ahiska @BronzePlaque @TurAr @atatwolf @asena_great @Asena_Y @rmi5@Baykuş @olcayto @Hakan @Combat-Master @xxxKULxxx @Hyperion @Rumelia @mrexil @telkon @Timur @Wave @u.MP@Islamic faith&Secularism @El-Turco @Yeni Kuyu @what @revojam @Kamil-Baku @Azeri440 @ASQ-1918 @faheka@Seyfullah @MertKaan @Akıncı @[TR]AHMET @damm1t @tesla @Casus Belli @MrTopal27 @Sinan @Quasar @Oublious@hacksquat @anatolia @Charon 2 @ozi2000 @LegionnairE @BordoEnes @N.Ozkan @XILLAX @turkbordobereli@golgelerprensi @fighting sparrow @Trick2UAV @BaybarsHan @Alienoz_TR @meral @hopeful73 @mehmet75 @altor@mert can
> @The Commander @AVCI @manowar @Hexciter @yakusha @otriz @Timur @Vatoz @F-15I @yason
> @R.A.K
> @deadmau5e
> @madmusti
> @KemalPasa
> @FutureMe
> @kardeş
> @Stimpy75
> @Nefer
> @KingWest @Turkish_FR



Dude what ?

Amerikan başkanı dahil herkesi arayın gibi oldu bu

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## HAIDER

"
*Not to be displaced by their Chinese counterparts, Turkish defense firms are working hard to deepen their partnership with Pakistan. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) continues to heavily promote its T-129 attack helicopter. A memorandum of understanding was recently signed between TAI and the Pakistani government, but details are unavailable*."

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## xxxKULxxx

Targon said:


> Dude what ?
> 
> Amerikan başkanı dahil herkesi arayın gibi oldu bu



Ama olay fazlasıyla hakediyo bunu  








HAIDER said:


> TAI signed MOU for 129 . Let see where it goes.





HAIDER said:


> "
> *Not to be displaced by their Chinese counterparts, Turkish defense firms are working hard to deepen their partnership with Pakistan. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) continues to heavily promote its T-129 attack helicopter. A memorandum of understanding was recently signed between TAI and the Pakistani government, but details are unavailable*."

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## xenon54 out

Easy guys wait for official press release.

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## T-123456

HAIDER said:


> Pak ministry of defence.


When did this happen,do you have any details?

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## black-hawk_101

xxxKULxxx said:


> Ama olay fazlasıyla hakediyo bunu
> View attachment 164612
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 164613



I think PAA should accept ATAK or Z-10 which comes under TOT.

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## HAIDER

T-123456 said:


> When did this happen,do you have any details?


If I am not wrong few days ago. But its not more then a week ago.

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## jupiter2007

If Pakistan decided to order it, it will be for 17 Helicopters.



black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAA should accept ATAK or Z-10 which comes under TOT.



Nothing comes with 100% ToT.
It will be great if Turkey allow Pakistan to assemble these locally.


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## HAIDER

This helicopter has US made engine and European or British avionics....what TOT you guys talking about ?? . Its TAI will convince the US govt to issue third party certificate and in these type of third party dealing , mother party always look for some hefty profit....

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## black-hawk_101

HAIDER said:


> This helicopter has US made engine and European or British avionics....what TOT you guys talking about ?? . Its TAI will convince the parties to all them to sell helicopter to Pakistan and in these type of third party dealing , mother party always look for some hefty profit in deals....



So Z-10 suites better?


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## mehboobkz



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## xxxKULxxx

HAIDER said:


> This helicopter has US made engine and European or British avionics....what TOT you guys talking about ?? . Its TAI will convince the parties to all them to sell helicopter to Pakistan and in these type of third party dealing , mother party always look for some hefty profit in deals....



Avionics of T-129 is Turkish...

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## monitor

xxxKULxxx said:


> Avionics of T-129 is Turkish...



But produced under license if a am not wrong .


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## xxxKULxxx

monitor said:


> But produced under license if a am not wrong .



I don't think so but better to ask it to @cabatli_53 or @Combat-Master



xxxKULxxx said:


> I don't think so but better to ask it to @cabatli_53 or @Combat-Master



Yes avionics are from ASELSAN... It's Turkish... 

Here it's in Turkish from ASELSAN's website... There are also other sources in english on the internet... 

T129 ATAK, TSK'ya Teslim Edildi. | Haberler | Basın Odası | ASELSAN

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## Zarvan

What I think we should do is get as many MI-28 as we can than wait for Z-10 to mature and than go for it


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## AKINCI

TURAF is considering to Super Mushshak for replacing old T-40s and SF260s. Total number may reach to 50.

Scope : T-41 and SF 260 Aircrafts which are used for primary training in Turkish Air Force inventory will be replaced with Primary Trainer Aircrafts to be procured within the context of this Program.

Project Model : Direct Procurement


Basic Trainer Aircraft Program


xxxKULxxx said:


> Really ?.. Or is something about Mushshak & HÜRKUŞ ?

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## xxxKULxxx

AKINCI said:


> TURAF is considering to Super Mushshak for replacing old T-40s and SF260s. Total number may reach to 50.
> 
> Scope : T-41 and SF 260 Aircrafts which are used for primary training in Turkish Air Force inventory will be replaced with Primary Trainer Aircrafts to be procured within the context of this Program.
> 
> Project Model : Direct Procurement
> 
> 
> Basic Trainer Aircraft Program



Bro what about this T-129 deal ?


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## Irfan Baloch

T-123456 said:


> Can you ask him again,and this time CAIC Z-10 against the T-129,you might be going for the Z-10?


I am religiously supportive of T-129 only.

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## xxxKULxxx

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am religiously supportive of T-129 only.



What you live for ?


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## ozi2000

Avionics

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## Irfan Baloch

xxxKULxxx said:


> What you live for ?


T-129 is based on a proven platform and Turkey just took the A-129 to the next level. everything about that helicopter is sleek and top tier the only handicap is the American power plant and we expect Americans to put an embargo onus soon after they are done with us and when we will need this equipment the most.

if Turkey can get an embargo free alternative then this will be a dream come true. I dont need to copy paste its capabilities again. whoever has seen its performance is absolutely sold to it it will be a true successor of our older cobra gunships.

Z-10 is sadly based on a stolen and incomplete western technology and although I have great admiration for Chinese hard work but I dont trust that helicopter that is based on some Chinese effort and rest on half stolen and covertly acquired western technology I mean no offence but I am talking about reliability of an equipment for the defence of my country here

I have same issue with Mi28NE as well as American super Cobra etc. Russia can pull the plug on its spares once we will face Indian hostilities (one might say same about Mi35 but they are mainly for TTP and Indian supported Balochi insurgents and we are not basing our national defence on a handful of Hinds) whereas any gunship/ attack helicopter replacing our cobras will be the backbone of he fighting arm of our army aviation corps
there is simple no room for sentiments, chance and naivety.

it is almost embarrassing to see how our decision makers are taking long and looking away when the Turks have made the most generous and of the box contract for T-129 maybe its the missing commission which they think they wont get if they go for Turkish helicopter. I dont know.

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## cabatli_53

HAIDER said:


> This helicopter has US made engine and European or British avionics....what TOT you guys talking about ?? . Its TAI will convince the US govt to issue third party certificate and in these type of third party dealing , mother party always look for some hefty profit....




- The T-129 Atak helicopter body is an assembly of totally 6400 parts, 6200 parts are manufactured in Turkey at first 9 EDH variant.

- Transmission and rotor are manufactured by Turkey.

- Avionics are domestic Aselsan made. Aselsan integrates own avionics to Skorsky T-70 platforms to be exported to arboad as well.

- T-129 Electronic warfare central computer, munitions and sensors are Aselsan made. Aselsan integrates own EW suits to not only T-129 Atak, but also S-70 and other rotary platforms.

- Helmet mounted sighting system is Aselsan made called AVCI.

- Main Anti-Tank/Personnel Missiles are domestic Roketsan made.

- Mission computer of T-129 Atak is Tubitak/Aselsan made.

- FLIR system is Aselsan made.

- MMW Radar is Meteksan.

- Obstacle detection system is Meteksan made.

- Moving map called Focus Flight is STM made.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No deal since Musharaf left we will get no new weapons


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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> T-129 is based on a proven platform and Turkey just took the A-129 to the next level. everything about that helicopter is sleek and top tier the only handicap is the American power plant and we expect Americans to put an embargo onus soon after they are done with us and when we will need this equipment the most.
> 
> if Turkey can get an embargo free alternative then this will be a dream come true. I dont need to copy paste its capabilities again. whoever has seen its performance is absolutely sold to it it will be a true successor of our older cobra gunships.
> 
> Z-10 is sadly based on a stolen and incomplete western technology and although I have great admiration for Chinese hard work but I dont trust that helicopter that is based on some Chinese effort and rest on half stolen and covertly acquired western technology I mean no offence but I am talking about reliability of an equipment for the defence of my country here
> 
> I have same issue with Mi28NE as well as American super Cobra etc. Russia can pull the plug on its spares once we will face Indian hostilities (one might say same about Mi35 but they are mainly for TTP and Indian supported Balochi insurgents and we are not basing our national defence on a handful of Hinds) whereas any gunship/ attack helicopter replacing our cobras will be the backbone of he fighting arm of our army aviation corps
> there is simple no room for sentiments, chance and naivety.
> 
> it is almost embarrassing to see how our decision makers are taking long and looking away when the Turks have made the most generous and of the box contract for T-129 maybe its the missing commission which they think they wont get if they go for Turkish helicopter. I dont know.


Sir there are some issues I think we should first go for as many MI-28 as we can get than go for T-129 and start joint production and also work on them on Transport helicopter


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## black-hawk_101

mehboobkz said:


> View attachment 175303



I think if Pakistan jumps in Block-II version of it then we can easily utilize EU engines.



AKINCI said:


> TURAF is considering to Super Mushshak for replacing old T-40s and SF260s. Total number may reach to 50.
> 
> Scope : T-41 and SF 260 Aircrafts which are used for primary training in Turkish Air Force inventory will be replaced with Primary Trainer Aircrafts to be procured within the context of this Program.
> 
> Project Model : Direct Procurement
> 
> 
> Basic Trainer Aircraft Program



Hopefully PAC will be selling them Super Mushak and also making future deals with KAI to have JV in Basic Trainer.


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## cabatli_53

Atak-EDH copters with Turkish Army

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## waz

The T-129 deal os by far the best option.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

From this view the Chinese helicopter is well equipped

Thinking helicopters that run on US engines is not ideal case for long term military perspective

Anyone know why these cabin windows are reflecting back with that strange color


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## -------

monitor said:


> But produced under license if a am not wrong .



Yes, you are wrong. Avionics of the T-129 has been in development over the last decade by Aselsan and TAI...



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> From this view the Chinese helicopter is well equipped
> 
> Thinking helicopters that run on US engines is not ideal case for long term military perspective
> 
> Anyone know why these cabin windows are reflecting back with that strange color



Curved Plexi glass + Light = Rainbow..

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## Venom Turk

I'am Turk and my love country but T-129 only Italian A-129 Mangusta Turkish version 
Pakistan army best options
1)*AH-64E Apache*
*2)Mİ-28NE*
*3)AH-1Z Viper*

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## Zarvan

Venom Turk said:


> I'am Turk and my love country but T-129 only Italian A-129 Mangusta Turkish version
> Pakistan army best options
> 1)*AH-64E Apache*
> *2)Mİ-28NE*
> *3)AH-1Z Viper*


Brother we will never get Appache USA may agree to sell AH-1Z cobra so our best options are to first get as many MI-28 as we can get than we need to decide soon weather to go for T-129 or Z-10 from China and need to do it fast


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Combat-Master said:


> Yes, you are wrong. Avionics of the T-129 has been in development over the last decade by Aselsan and TAI...
> 
> 
> 
> Curved Plexi glass + Light = Rainbow..




Was wondering if these were specially designed to reflect any radar rays etc , possibly final version of chopper to have special stealth enhancement paint etc


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## Venom Turk

Zarvan said:


> Brother we will never get Appache USA may agree to sell AH-1Z cobra so our best options are to first get as many MI-28 as we can get than we need to decide soon weather to go for T-129 or Z-10 from China and need to do it fast



pakistan army only two option(T-129 and Z-10) first choice of course T-129(A-129) because
T-129(europe technology and _european standards_)

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## RAMPAGE

Hi who's the aviation guy in Turkish section?

Is there any 1400 to1600 KW turboshaft produced by Turkey that can be installed on T-129?

@Sinan @Hakan

What about T700-GE-TEI701D ?

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## -SINAN-

RAMPAGE said:


> Hi who's the aviation guy in Turkish section?
> 
> Is there any 1400 to1600 KW turboshaft produced by Turkey that can be installed on T-129?
> 
> @Sinan @Hakan
> 
> What about T700-GE-TEI701D ?



Nope there isn't any and any time soon.

TEI motors will be produced for T-70 utility helicopter project with licence...i doubt, US will let us to produce them for export. And i bet many of the critical parts of that motor would come from US to be assembled in Turkey.

Check out this thread... TAI T-129 ATAK | Page 72


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## waz

Sinan said:


> Check out this thread... TAI T-129 ATAK | Page 72



Pakistani bros, if you have any questions, please refer to the thread that brother Sinan has put up. The thread is excellent and has dispelled many myths people have been stating on here.

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## Super Falcon

I will go Mi 28 any day it is tough reliable and above all it will make fear in hearts of opponents


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## Hakan

Pakistan recently got F-16's from jordan and they are using american engines so I dont see how the american motors are an issue regarding t-129. If there was a problem Pakistan wouldn't get F-16's.

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## C130

Venom Turk said:


> I'am Turk and my love country but T-129 only Italian A-129 Mangusta Turkish version
> Pakistan army best options
> 1)*AH-64E Apache*
> *2)Mİ-28NE*
> *3)AH-1Z Viper*



I don't really like the Mi-28NE, at first I did.
but damn it weighs 3 tonnes more than the Apache and Viper . So in essence it's combat radius is cut in half compared to the Apache.

yeah that 3 tonnes is because of all that armor, but how often does an Apache get shot down??? and unless the Mi-28NE going to be flying like a Hind I guess it makes sense.

but I rather have that extra 200 Kilometers.


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## Kompromat

C130 said:


> I don't really like the Mi-28NE, at first I did.
> but damn it weighs 3 tonnes more than the Apache and Viper . So in essence it's combat radius is cut in half compared to the Apache.
> 
> yeah that 3 tonnes is because of all that armor, but how often does an Apache get shot down??? and unless the Mi-28NE going to be flying like a Hind I guess it makes sense.
> 
> but I rather have that extra 200 Kilometers.



If it can kill Talidogs at night, we will buy it!


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## Hakan

Hakan said:


> Pakistan recently got F-16's from jordan and they are using american engines so I dont see how the american motors are an issue regarding t-129. If there was a problem Pakistan wouldn't get F-16's.


Also getting more us ships with us engines.
https://defence.pk/threads/us-frigates-approved-for-transfer-–-finally.349906/page-2#post-6577366

I think the american engine argument against the t-129 is b.s


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## Ahsan Butt

whatever pakistan have got from either jordan , russia or USA they have to eliminate Terrorist from the root


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## SipahSalar

How many of T-129's parts are manufactured in turkey and how many are imported from western countries? Specifically USA? Because USA can easily embargo seperate parts in case we get in a conflict with any nation, like Russia did with our T-80's.

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## xxxKULxxx

SipahSalar said:


> How many of T-129's parts are manufactured in turkey and how many are imported from western countries? Specifically USA? Because USA can easily embargo seperate parts in case we get in a conflict with any nation, like Russia did with our T-80's.



6200 of 6400 parts are manufactured in Türkiye...

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## SipahSalar

xxxKULxxx said:


> 6200 of 6400 parts are manufactured in Türkiye...



That's great, means it's a reliable and conflict-proof source. Do you offer a "brothers" discount?

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## Basel

If engine become issue in sale of T-129 to Pakistan, is there any other engine available from other vendor which can be fitted in it?


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## razgriz19

Hakan said:


> Pakistan recently got F-16's from jordan and they are using american engines so I dont see how the american motors are an issue regarding t-129. If there was a problem Pakistan wouldn't get F-16's.



money is the problem,
fanboys are the ones coming up with excuses like engines, etc
PAF operates CN-235 which are Indonesian built, they also use American turboprop engines, and many variants of that engine is used in Apaches, Super Cobra, etc


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## HAIDER

Basel said:


> If engine become issue in sale of T-129 to Pakistan, is there any other engine available from other vendor which can be fitted in it?


body`built`on`engine`configuration`Engine`selection`come`first`during`designing`phase

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## Basel

HAIDER said:


> body`built`on`engine`configuration`Engine`selection`come`first`during`designing`phase



Now when a country make a system which incorporates sub systems from many countries (vendors) then they mostly make sure that it can have systems from other vendor if one vendor refuse to supply the system, example JF-17 if RD-93 is not available it can have other engine like Chinese one or even from west if available same is for its avionics.


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## CiciHoriOzK

scary helicopter! I think great for border patrols! 

does different engine configuration affect speed and maneuverability? is chinese enginer heavier? i couldnt find specs online.


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## PakArmyFTW

Wow! That T-129 is a beauty. Any news about Pakistan buying these or not? I heard Pakistan got some Russian Mi-35s so will we continue to get those or will we also get the T-129s?


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## araz

To me the prime question which everyone avoids for the simple reason that it will kill the whole debate and even more important than PAs financial constraints is availability. T129B which the version that we are looking to acquire is not even Inducted in Turkish forces. Any order will require the needs of the local force to be fulfilled first and then take orders for export. The same is the case with the Zulu. US is saying it might give us some cobras in the interim but we have gone hoarse demanding more helos and none/ few have come which have not been enough given our utilization of the platform. This only leave us with MI series which are readily available and battle tested. Therefore for use NOW when we need them the only viable option is the red bear and the MI series. The rest may be future acquisitions but not at least till 2018-20. It is therefore contingent to think of helo options in the now and future sequence to get the right answers. Incidentally in the future acquisition we need to look at the WS10 and its future iterations. The Chinese dont want to lose their market and therefore are sweetening the deal with an offering of 3 platforms that have been in the news for T &E. This also needs to be considered in the context of its advantages and disadvantages. At the end of the day our future acquisitions will be decided in this manner 
Araz


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## cabatli_53

araz said:


> To me the prime question which everyone avoids for the simple reason that it will kill the whole debate and even more important than PAs financial constraints is availability. T129B which the version that we are looking to acquire is not even Inducted in Turkish forces. Any order will require the needs of the local force to be fulfilled first and then take orders for export. The same is the case with the Zulu. US is saying it might give us some cobras in the interim but we have gone hoarse demanding more helos and none/ few have come which have not been enough given our utilization of the platform. This only leave us with MI series which are readily available and battle tested. Therefore for use NOW when we need them the only viable option is the red bear and the MI series. The rest may be future acquisitions but not at least till 2018-20. It is therefore contingent to think of helo options in the now and future sequence to get the right answers. Incidentally in the future acquisition we need to look at the WS10 and its future iterations. The Chinese dont want to lose their market and therefore are sweetening the deal with an offering of 3 platforms that have been in the news for T &E. This also needs to be considered in the context of its advantages and disadvantages. At the end of the day our future acquisitions will be decided in this manner
> Araz




T129B1 variant is not structurally different than current 129A-EDH Turkish army operates at present. B1 will have more advanced variant of EDH in terms of electronics, weapon system and self protection sensors. That's why the copters are classified as;

T129EDH = Combat support variant
T129B1 = Multi-Role (Terorist hunter on high-hot mountainous areas, anti-tank and enemy surveillance missions)

In additions, T-129B production is proceeding to induct Turkish Army. At present, Deliveries of A variant is completed.

Those guys are not test pilots of TAI. They are Turkish Land Forces pilots trained by TAI, showing capabilities of T129A to public and media. 






The pilots trained for T129A is going to be able to operate T129B variant as well. Their cockpit designs will also be same. With commencement of B variant deliveries, Modernization of A Ataks will also be upgraded to B1. I mean, There will not be a variant of A in following years. It is T129B2 variant that will have some structural modifications on fuselage. 

Those are only self protection electronic warfare suits to be integrated on B1 which make B1 prevent to be a likely target of IIR/Lazer/Radar guided missiles.

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## shaheenmissile

How much t-129 weighs empty?

Also i read about 137 kg in the tail issue


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## araz

cabatli_53 said:


> T129B1 variant is not structurally different than current 129A-EDH Turkish army operates at present. B1 will have more advanced variant of EDH in terms of electronics, weapon system and self protection sensors. That's why the copters are classified as;
> 
> T129EDH = Combat support variant
> T129B1 = Multi-Role (Terorist hunter on high-hot mountainous areas, anti-tank and enemy surveillance missions)
> 
> In additions, T-129B production is proceeding to induct Turkish Army. At present, Deliveries of A variant is completed.
> 
> Those guys are not test pilots of TAI. They are Turkish Land Forces pilots trained by TAI, showing capabilities of T129A to public and media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pilots trained for T129A is going to be able to operate T129B variant as well. Their cockpit designs will also be same. With commencement of B variant deliveries, Modernization of A Ataks will also be upgraded to B1. I mean, There will not be a variant of A in following years. It is T129B2 variant that will have some structural modifications on fuselage.
> 
> Those are only self protection electronic warfare suits to be integrated on B1 which make B1 prevent to be a likely target of IIR/Lazer/Radar guided missiles.


Which brings us back to the key question of whether the T 129B is available now to procure for an export order. The answer is in the negative as you have the needs of the TA to be fulfilled first. Therefore it is not the platform for now but for some years down the line possibly even post 2020. PA needs to rationalize its helo support and needs to adopt one basic platform with in house repair/ overhaul facilities and T129 may be a choice in the future but not now. The MI series fits our scenario with commonality between 17s, 35s and 28NEs. We already have depot level maintenance and overhaul facilities in house and parts can be procured from Ukraine and China amongst other nations even if the Red bear decides to get angry with us.
Araz

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## -SINAN-

araz said:


> The answer is in the negative as you have the needs of the TA to be fulfilled first.


If there is no concern except delivery date, you should ask this question to TAI instead of making assumptions.


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## araz

Sinan said:


> If there is no concern except delivery date, you should ask this question to TAI instead of making assumptions.


Sinan and Cabatli.
I don't have any objection to the T129 and in fact I think it is a really good platform. However I genuinely don't know when they will be able to deliver to an export order. From a general assumption of an new platform needing to fulfill local demand I have assumed a 5 yr time as a conservative estimate. It might be sooner or later but the problem for PA is NOW. Which is why I have made an assumption of two different platforms and then tried to find rationale for a buy for PA. It is a logical way of doing things as far as I have understood the situation. I wanted to clarify the above before we went ahead. Please by all means negate the logic of my statement as this is how I will learn as well as other less informed members like me .

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## cabatli_53

TAI is running on foreign tenders and exhibiting Atak copter on almost every international defence fairs. The last tender Atak participated is Polish one and Turkish officials are trying to prepare a delicious offer to meet Poland requirements as a rival of Apache and Tiger. I mean Turkey has capability of delivering Atak on both Turkish Land Forces and an ally country simultaneously. The capacity of production brands can easily be adopted to carry out such a requirement.

Secondly, T129 is developed on battle proven Italian Mangusta fuselage with longer and wider and powerfull body aspects. Current Atak is much more capable and powerfull copter than Mangusta in every items you can imagine. All those makes Atak a level of matured and proven platform Even If It has a new developed copter in the hands of Turkish army.

The flying characteristics and long trial phase actually summarize many things about How matured platform Atak is.

During trials;

- T-129A Atak flown *3,200h *
- Fired *5,000* unguided 2,75 inch rockets
- Fired *42,000* munitions

I think The number of munitions Atak fired during only trials were not fired by European Tiger and S. African Rooivalk copters within all their active lifes.

From time of induction to Army to current, The flyings are being proceeded by Army pilots. From 2011 to current, There is not a single malfunction report regarding Atak. That's why Atak has a special copter in many aspects because Turkish geography needs a special and powerfull copters to be able to fought against all type of threats.

On rough, high and hot mountainous areas of S. East: PKK, PYD and YPG terorists
Long flat plains of South: Syrian threats, tanks
The modern threats of West, N. West: Greek Leopard 2A6, Surface to Air Missiles and Apache copters (That's why Atak is able to fire Air to Air missiles as well)

Turkey doesn't have luxury to play chance games over war machines so The systems developed should host top level of technology which provide either similar or more capabilities than rivals to Turkish army.

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## A2Z

T-129 has american components and will always have the threat of sanctions and if not that spares might become a problem as well. We can trust Turkey but can afford to trust USA as Uncle Sam has found a new friend in India.
Go for Mi to fill the gaps and for future Z-10 with TOT would be the best option.


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## porris

iS TURKEY DEVELOPING ITS OWN hELICOPTER ENGINE DOMESTICALLY


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## zeeshanvita

porris said:


> iS TURKEY DEVELOPING ITS OWN hELICOPTER ENGINE DOMESTICALLY


sari raat heer ranjha sunaya subha uth kai poocha heer larki thee ya larka...lol

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## princefaisal

Turkish PM will be coming in the mid of February 2015 to discuss the military cooperation. May be we can hear some good outcome.

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## black-hawk_101

Is Pakistan looking to privatize its military manufacturing sector?


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## Sulman Badshah

black-hawk_101 said:


> Is Pakistan looking to privatize its military manufacturing sector?


highly doubted on privatization of main defence industry .... but firms like GIDS , AWC , ID might have private investment


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## black-hawk_101

Sulman Badshah said:


> highly doubted on privatization of main defence industry .... but firms like GIDS , AWC , ID might have private investment


Yes GIDS is private.


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## cabatli_53

T129 Atak first export costumer is an undisclosed country.






CİRİT has also been integrated on the Turkish Army’s T-129 ATAK helicopter, *and the T-129s ordered by the type’s first, as yet undisclosed, export customer. *

Laser rocket is on target [IDX15D2] - IHS Jane's 360

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## airmarshal

cabatli_53 said:


> T129 Atak first export costumer is an undisclosed country.
> 
> 
> 
> CİRİT has also been integrated on the Turkish Army’s T-129 ATAK helicopter, *and the T-129s ordered by the type’s first, as yet undisclosed, export customer. *
> 
> Laser rocket is on target [IDX15D2] - IHS Jane's 360



Any idea? guesses?

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## -SINAN-

porris said:


> iS TURKEY DEVELOPING ITS OWN hELICOPTER ENGINE DOMESTICALLY



Yes...but we are currently in R&D stage...but you can be sure that we are going to produce every component of T-129 by ourselves in the future.



airmarshal said:


> Any idea? guesses?


Azerbaijan, Jordan, Bahrain... I think most possibly Azerbaijan.

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## Zarvan

Sinan said:


> Yes...but we are currently in R&D stage...but you can be sure that we are going to produce every component of T-129 by ourselves in the future.
> 
> 
> Azerbaijan, Jordan, Bahrain... I think most possibly Azerbaijan.


Well I hope you achieve that soon because it is vital for exports

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## porris

Sinan said:


> Yes...but we are currently in R&D stage...but you can be sure that we are going to produce every component of T-129 by ourselves in the future.
> 
> 
> Azerbaijan, Jordan, Bahrain... I think most possibly Azerbaijan.


 I pray to Almighty Gog that turkey Succeed in every field

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## porris

Sinan said:


> Yes...but we are currently in R&D stage...but you can be sure that we are going to produce every component of T-129 by ourselves in the future.
> 
> 
> Azerbaijan, Jordan, Bahrain... I think most possibly Azerbaijan.


thanks for informing i Pray u (Turkish Nation) succeed

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## Viper0011.

Horus said:


> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says Pakistan and Jordan are already Evaluating T-129 ATAK. *
> 
> Programme officials from the ATAK development team have provided further details of Turkey's T129 attack helicopter programme, as its first prototype has completed its debut flight.



I've written about this before. Going forward, Pakistan will have two attack heli's in its arsenal. TOT Z-10's, which may be built locally and more "Westernized" ATAK heli's from Turkey. While Russia will provide a few heli's for temporary needs, which will eventually become obsolete over time or will be used for transport purposes long term.

Z-10 will help establish Pakistan's heli manufacturing and aviation industry, which would in long turn, save billions of foreign expense due to purchases of these platform from elsewhere.

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## ThePakistaniHoneyBadger

We should defiantly purchase the T-129 as it seems like a fine helicopter.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Viper0011. said:


> I've written about this before. Going forward, Pakistan will have two attack heli's in its arsenal. TOT Z-10's, which may be built locally and more "Westernized" ATAK heli's from Turkey. While Russia will provide a few heli's for temporary needs, which will eventually become obsolete over time or will be used for transport purposes long term.
> 
> Z-10 will help establish Pakistan's heli manufacturing and aviation industry, which would in long turn, save billions of foreign expense due to purchases of these platform from elsewhere.


It seems like Pakistan would be having Z-10, ATAK-129 and some sort of transport on TOT so that it can complete all the requirements.

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## Muqeet Sabir

Meanwhile Opportunity is too good to use because it might be a good for Foreign exchange

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## xxxKULxxx

New video... Slowly we started to see action videos...

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## Muqeet Sabir

Pakistan Army is Best

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## rockstar08

cabatli_53 said:


> T129 Atak first export costumer is an undisclosed country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CİRİT has also been integrated on the Turkish Army’s T-129 ATAK helicopter, *and the T-129s ordered by the type’s first, as yet undisclosed, export customer. *
> 
> Laser rocket is on target [IDX15D2] - IHS Jane's 360



If that undisclosed customer is PA , than @cabatli_53 you will get a free Candy

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## -------

Seems like Pakistan has gone for Z-10.

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## monitor

Combat-Master said:


> Seems like Pakistan has gone for Z-10.



Chins can provide more cheaply their Z-10 then turkey, moreover Z-10 probably getting more powerful indigenous engine too which will increase their speed and payload .


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## nomi007

time to close this thread

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## Dazzler

Let it run, the z-10 here are for testing purposes where no final decision is taken, don't be surprised if you see two or three ATAK in coming months for the same cause as well.


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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Let it run, the z-10 here are for testing purposes where no final decision is taken, don't be surprised if you see two or three ATAK in coming months for the same cause as well.


Sir we have made our mind other wise we would have been testing 3 T-129 too but we are not testing them.

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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> Sir we have made our mind other wise we would have been testing 3 T-129 too but we are not testing them.



Not yet


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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Not yet


Than I hope we go for both


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## Kurlang

Dazzler said:


> Let it run, the z-10 here are for testing purposes where no final decision is taken, don't be surprised if you see two or three ATAK in coming months for the same cause as well.



I am absolutely expecting them. You are going ro see T 129 very soon. Cant say more than that


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## Zarvan

Kurlang said:


> I am absolutely expecting them. You are going ro see T 129 very soon. Cant say more than that


So you know something okay answer this question 
Will Pakistan go for both T-129 and WZ-10 ?? 
You can answer in Yes or No. I would not ask How you know it ?
@Kurlang


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> So you know something okay answer this question
> Will Pakistan go for both T-129 and WZ-10 ??
> You can answer in Yes or No. I would not ask How you know it ?
> @Kurlang


Bachae ke jaan lo ke kya?


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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bachae ke jaan lo ke kya?


No I just need another good news Both T-129 and WZ-10 will make Pakistan a beast who no body will mess specially our beloved India


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> No I just need another good news Both T-129 and WZ-10 will make Pakistan a beast who no body will mess specially our beloved India


There were some reports that P.A.A is testing the T-129 but this has never been conformed. So IMO it might not be possible if they are going to enter service, on the other hand the zulu's refusal would have strengthened a case to have them.


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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There were some reports that P.A.A is testing the T-129 but this has never been conformed. So IMO it might not be possible if they are going to enter service, on the other hand the zulu's refusal would have strengthened a case to have them.


The kind of relation we have with Turkey I don't think we would refuse them so I think Pakistan would go for both WZ-10 and T-129. Am I right ?? @Kurlang


----------



## Kurlang

Zarvan said:


> So you know something okay answer this question
> Will Pakistan go for both T-129 and WZ-10 ??
> You can answer in Yes or No. I would not ask How you know it ?
> @Kurlang



It is premature to say confirm something like this. Sorry I can't answer this question because I don't know.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bachae ke jaan lo ke kya?


Bacha abb borha (old) ho gaya hai. Bacha nahin baba 



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There were some reports that P.A.A is testing the T-129 but this has never been conformed. So IMO it might not be possible if they are going to enter service, on the other hand the zulu's refusal would have strengthened a case to have them.



I have also heard that P.A.A has tested it and its performance was exceptional. ToT is on the table but in my personal opinion only one hurdle, the power plant is sanction prone. We would just jump on the Turkish offer if guarantees are given regarding the concerns showen by Pakistan.

I can bet on one thing, that T 129 is much better platform than Z 10.


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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> Sir we have made our mind other wise we would have been testing 3 T-129 too but we are not testing them.



Some one from PAA on twitter told me that PAA had tested T-129 in Turkey and they loved it.

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## zeeshanvita

Basel said:


> Some one from PAA on twitter told me that PAA had tested T-129 in Turkey and they loved it.


Whats the use...love could not be materialized in marriage..


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## Basel

zeeshanvita said:


> Whats the use...love could not be materialized in marriage..



Basically PAA pilots want T-129 as it is very versatile and can be customized by Turkey as wanted and will come with reliable and tested tech.

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## cabatli_53

Basel said:


> Some one from PAA on twitter told me that PAA had tested T-129 in Turkey and they loved it.

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## zeeshanvita

Basel said:


> Basically PAA pilots want T-129 as it is very versatile and can be customized by Turkey as wanted and will come with reliable and tested tech.


My friend... Parents wanted their Son to get marry with close Friends daughter who is not only rich but has done lots of favor in the past...love is sacrificed...

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## Basel

zeeshanvita said:


> My friend... Parents wanted their Son to get marry with close Friends daughter who is not only rich but has done lots of favor in the past...love is sacrificed...



In our case we have 2 close friends here.

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## cabatli_53

Reports indicates that TAI is in final negotiations with an undisclosed Asian country to finalize deal. In additions, Bahrain army is also considering Atak copters. They have already announced their favorite copters to be ordered. Most probably, We may see some signiture ceremonies in IDEF 2015.









> In early 2014 _IHS Jane's_ reported that Bahrain was looking at a number of attack helicopter options, including the T129 and Bell AH-1Z Viper, and that other platforms such as the Airbus Tiger, Boeing AH-64E Apache, and Denel Rooivalk, Mil Mi-35 'Hind', Mi-28 'Havoc', and/or Kamov Ka-50/52 'Hokum' might also be offered. The colonel's comments are doubly surprising as they indicate that the air force has already made its selection (not something that has previously been known), and that the T129 will not actually replace the Cobra as had been thought.
> 
> Bahraini air force details modernisation plans - IHS Jane's 360

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## mingle

cabatli_53 said:


> Reports indicates that TAI is in final negotiations with an undisclosed Asian country to finalize deal. In additions, Bahrain army is also considering Atak copters. They have already announced their favorite copters to be ordered. Most probably, We may see some signiture ceremonies in IDEF 2015.


Cabatli this shows one thing more growing influence of turkey in middle east and pak Qatar is making deal to station some turkish troops so Bahrain buying theior tech same pak they opted more turkish tech and chines not good news for Europe and yanks


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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> Reports indicates that TAI is in final negotiations with an undisclosed Asian country to finalize deal. In additions, Bahrain army is also considering Atak copters. They have already announced their favorite copters to be ordered. Most probably, We may see some signiture ceremonies in IDEF 2015.


I hope its Pakistan

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> I hope its Pakistan


I know it's not this thread related but I also looking farward TAI new fifth generation TFX fighter jet program they speed up that project too with twin engine configuration will be cheaper than F 35 they looking to replace theior F 16 with that plane it would be good for PAF too replace our F16 just like T 129 and Wz 10 that plane with J 31 good comboo for Pakistan no need to look anywhere


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## fatman17

Time to close this thread bcuz it ain't gonna happen. One can buy 3 Z10 s for the price of 1 T129

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Time to close this thread bcuz it ain't gonna happen. One can buy 3 Z10 s for the price of 1 T129



There is a difference T-129 is light where as Z-10 is medium to heavy. PAA requires both kinds, even India has the LCH and have gone for Appache. The PAA cobra were to be replaced by the new Zulu but that has gone out of the drain so the only think PAA thinks is practicable is the T-129 but the issue is the US engine. If the T-129B with a Turkish engine in produced or an other engine is available then PAA would not have any second thoughts.


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## SipahSalar

fatman17 said:


> Time to close this thread bcuz it ain't gonna happen. One can buy 3 Z10 s for the price of 1 T129


That is a bit early to say. Trials of Z-10 are not even finished. Besides what's to say we can't field both? We are after all still trying acquire Mi-35.


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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> I hope its Pakistan



This was posted on twitter by PA officer last year:


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## Zarvan

Basel said:


> This was posted on twitter by PA officer last year:
> 
> View attachment 212297


Well can't say for sure specially after we have started to test WZ-10 but still I hope we go for both T-129 and WZ-10

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## xxxKULxxx

I don't know if Pakistan will get T-129 but if not it is a good side that atleast we made china to offer a better deal to our brothers...

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## Mughal-Prince

zeeshanvita said:


> My friend... Parents wanted their Son to get marry with close Friends daughter who is not only rich but has done lots of favor in the past...love is sacrificed...





Basel said:


> In our case we have 2 close friends here.



We can have four together at a time  

Include Mi-35 which is on order and a few examples of Mi-28 NE as well  with some asked improvements :p.

Aye bua humara larka 4 shadian Keray ga backup kay lia

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## nomi007

i believe there is no future of T-129 attack helicopter


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## -------

nomi007 said:


> i believe there is no future of T-129 attack helicopter



How so?


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## Bratva

xxxKULxxx said:


> I don't know if Pakistan will get T-129 but if not it is a good side that atleast we made china to offer a better deal to our brothers...



You do know that engine export was denied to Pakistan? that's why Pakistan went to China and Russian options


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## -------

Bratva said:


> You do know that engine export was denied to Pakistan? that's why Pakistan went to China and Russian options



Who denied engine export ? Both US and UK ?

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## qwerrty

why would they denied engine export to pakistan?


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## Thorough Pro

Time to close this thread, as this deal is dead.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Thorough Pro said:


> Time to close this thread, as this deal is dead.


never say never. You might get a surprise.


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## Mughal-Prince

Nothing's dead yet


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## madmusti

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Nothing's dead yet



3 Z-10 you have already but nothing is Dead ? Hmm. Vote For Close.

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## Mughal-Prince

madmusti said:


> 3 Z-10 you have already but nothing is Dead ? Hmm. Vote For Close.



We have learned our lesson and as of what we have learned nothing is dead yet .
Zulus are just a lollypop which will be taken but not work as wanted to keep us in the pond we are on the course of getting out of it and GCC may further push us for showing us eyes not good for them.
ATAK is a true contender which will stay in consideration and I believe Turkey will come up with some indigenous or backup solution for the problem and yes none in its category could surpass it and it will even improve further.
China is our all weather ally so Z-10 can never get a play ground like Pakistan for testing and to be proved in live scenario and to be familiarised so if required in numbers then it will be available. So this will be for acquired in numbers as we can get 3 or even 4 in price of 1 and we will be licence produce it eventually.
ATAK is based on proven platform and one in its league and coming with TOT which no one country could imagine so sooner or later we will go for it.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

The US knows Pakistan would not order more Zulu's so they would have no choice but to sell the engines of T-129 to Pakistan. 

This way they would have some say in the future battles if they do not do this then China and Russia would supply Pakistan and then the role of US being the Policeman on the world would be seen as diminishing.

This is like a catch 22 for the US.


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## madmusti

princeiftikharmirza said:


> We have learned our lesson and as of what we have learned nothing is dead yet .
> Zulus are just a lollypop which will be taken but not work as wanted to keep us in the pond we are on the course of getting out of it and GCC may further push us for showing us eyes not good for them.
> ATAK is a true contender which will stay in consideration and I believe Turkey will come up with some indigenous or backup solution for the problem and yes none in its category could surpass it and it will even improve further.
> China is our all weather ally so Z-10 can never get a play ground like Pakistan for testing and to be proved in live scenario and to be familiarised so if required in numbers then it will be available. So this will be for acquired in numbers as we can get 3 or even 4 in price of 1 and we will be licence produce it eventually.
> ATAK is based on proven platform and one in its league and coming with TOT which no one country could imagine so sooner or later we will go for it.




How you know ? Stealing the Customers from Russia & China will not make them happy, they will come with another Solution and Offers.

ATAK is not ready, it´s under development and Turkish Army don´t get all his order of ATAK.

I really cannot figure that News on ATAK already selled but if you don´t deliver so you can Delay or Stop the Order.

As you said "Nothing is Dead Yet"


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## cabatli_53

madmusti said:


> How you know ? Stealing the Customers from Russia & China will not make them happy, they will come with another Solution and Offers.
> 
> *ATAK is not ready, it´s under development and Turkish Army don´t get all his order of ATAK.*
> 
> I really cannot figure that News on ATAK already selled but if you don´t deliver so you can Delay or Stop the Order.
> 
> As you said "Nothing is Dead Yet"



WTF are you talking ?  Are you a schizod or what ?

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## Mughal-Prince

madmusti said:


> How you know ? Stealing the Customers from Russia & China will not make them happy, they will come with another Solution and Offers.
> 
> ATAK is not ready, it´s under development and Turkish Army don´t get all his order of ATAK.
> 
> I really cannot figure that News on ATAK already selled but if you don´t deliver so you can Delay or Stop the Order.
> 
> As you said "Nothing is Dead Yet"



Stealing Customers ??? :/

Just wait and watch.


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## RAMPAGE

Hope we go for T129b instead of Vipers.

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## Zarvan

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Stealing Customers ??? :/
> 
> Just wait and watch.


Yes me to but it looks like not going to happen


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## madmusti

RAMPAGE said:


> Hope we go for T129b instead of Vipers.



It´s not ready , it´s under development, how you want to get something that is not ready ? explain.


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## C130

I like the T-129. looks like a solid attack helicopter. I want to see it in action. so a export to Pakistan,Afghanistan, and Iraq would assure some good footage.

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## -------

cabatli_53 said:


> WTF are you talking ?  Are you a schizod or what ?



he means T-129B.


madmusti said:


> It´s not ready , it´s under development, how you want to get something that is not ready ? explain.





C130 said:


> I like the T-129. looks like a solid attack helicopter. I want to see it in action. so a export to Pakistan,Afghanistan, and Iraq would assure some good footage.



I would have preferred the rooivalk over the A-129, shame relations with France soured during tender and A-129 was chosen instead.

T-129 has grown on me though.. :/ .. kinda..

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## airmarshal

With only 15 Zulus in the deal, there is a high chance Pakistan will eventually be back interested in T-129. Pakistan needs a larger number of attack helicopters.

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## madmusti

Combat-Master said:


> I would have preferred the rooivalk over the A-129, shame relations with France soured during tender and A-129 was chosen instead.
> 
> T-129 has grown on me though.. :/ .. kinda..



Same !


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## graphican

airmarshal said:


> With only 15 Zulus in the deal, there is a high chance Pakistan will eventually be back interested in T-129. Pakistan needs a larger number of attack helicopters.



Had Pakistan requested 30-40 units? The cost of 30-40 units would've been 2-2.5 billions and Pakistan wouldn't be willing to spend this much on one platform. I have no insight but I suspect we would've asked for the same number which we've got.


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## madmusti

cabatli_53 said:


> WTF are you talking ?  Are you a schizod or what ?



Sry im not like you who spend his life on a Forum and is Protecting allegations that die away.

That´s the Reason for offense me with "schizod" ?

Maybe you should Accept that you are not able to change the Reality.


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## AsifIjaz

The huge no of firepower ordered along with the spares is there for 2 purpose only... 1) we plan to induct more in the future... 2) T-129 might be allowed to incorporate and use these .


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## Dazzler

Sorry guys, no ATAKS for now for PAA. \/|¶£®$ and Z-10s r here to stay.

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## fatman17

This item is on the backburner for now. Not closed per se but not a priority.

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## BaybarsHan



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## -SINAN-

madmusti said:


> Sry im not like you who spend his life on a Forum and is Protecting allegations that die away.
> 
> That´s the Reason for offense me with "schizod" ?
> 
> Maybe you should Accept that you are not able to change the Reality.


T-129As are already been produced and being used in the army..

T-129B1s have been designed and being produced.

T-129B2s' design is being worked on and is going to be produced after the 39th T-129 (in 2016)

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## assslan

I heard that all T-129 A models was converted to T-129 B1. is it true?


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## xxxKULxxx

assslan said:


> I heard that all T-129 A models was converted to T-129 B1. is it true?



Not yet but will be...

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## cabatli_53

I think This video is not posted in here before.

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## PakArmyFTW

cabatli_53 said:


> I think This video is not posted in here before.


Very, very nice.


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## Nutuk

Newpaper says Pakistan did not chose T_129 nor WZ-10 but the MI-35 of Russia

http://kokpit.aero/pakistan-mi-35-aliyor


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Nutuk said:


> Newpaper says Pakistan did not chose T_129 nor WZ-10 but the MI-35 of Russia
> 
> http://kokpit.aero/pakistan-mi-35-aliyor


The report also gives the total number to be 20 and the operational area to be Western and Northern areas of Pakistan.

Hence there are chances of Chinese Z-10 and US AH-1Z are going to be added for East and South.


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## graphican

Nutuk said:


> Newpaper says Pakistan did not chose T_129 nor WZ-10 but the MI-35 of Russia
> 
> http://kokpit.aero/pakistan-mi-35-aliyor



T-129 and WZ-10 are not a replacement of MI-35. Pakistan wants to use MI-35 for multiple reasons including attack and troops deployment. But having Mi-35 doesn't eliminate need to have T-129 or WZ-10 and we might end up getting one of such attack helicopter nevertheless.

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## Super Falcon

I still bellieve that T 129 pak army use it along side viper and Z 10 for india we need to replace 60 old helos of cobra we are getting 20 each of z 10 and vipers remaining will be from ATAK i think


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## revojam

Super Falcon said:


> I still bellieve that T 129 pak army use it along side viper and Z 10 for india we need to replace 60 old helos of cobra we are getting 20 each of z 10 and vipers remaining will be from ATAK i think


To keep logistic simple ( aka affordable ) its best to keep only one aircraft from one source.

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## Blue Marlin

revojam said:


> To keep logistic simple ( aka affordable ) its best to keep only one aircraft from one source.


the Pakistanis don't like to have one system as that means they are dependent on that on system. yes it may seem like a good idea if you are an accountant but in the world of defence it capability and reality that decides. 

the t129 was a really good option but unfortunately the US rejected to export the engine and Europe will be reluctant transfer tot. so that deal was dead.


so the z10 is most probably going to be the back bone of the armed forces gunship fleet whilst the mi35 will be used for support and the 15 viper helicopters is like the cherry on the cake. its the most advanced helicopter of pakistans fleet.


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## TheConquerer

blue marlin said:


> the Pakistanis don't like to have one system as that means they are dependent on that on system. yes it may seem like a good idea if you are an accountant but in the world of defence it capability and reality that decides.
> 
> the t129 was a really good option but unfortunately the US rejected to export the engine and Europe will be reluctant transfer tot. so that deal was dead.
> 
> 
> so the z10 is most probably going to be the back bone of the armed forces gunship fleet whilst the mi35 will be used for support and the 15 viper helicopters is like the cherry on the cake. its the most advanced helicopter of pakistans fleet.


reluctant transfer tot? Please do not write a comment with certain words about something which you dont have any knowledge.

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## Blue Marlin

TheConquerer said:


> reluctant transfer tot? Please do not write a comment with certain words about something which you dont have any knowledge.


so why did the t129 deal collaspe?


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## fatman17

Any sales of T129 by Turkey is subject to grant of US licence for the engine. Negotiations are underway between Turkey and US.

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## Viper0011.

graphican said:


> Had Pakistan requested 30-40 units? The cost of 30-40 units would've been 2-2.5 billions and Pakistan wouldn't be willing to spend this much on one platform. I have no insight but I suspect we would've asked for the same number which we've got.



The $ 2 billion saved, should be spent on getting TOT from China and establish a local heli industry, starting with combat Z-10's, and later, producing a civilian variant by changing the combat chassis to a normal one, and using a lower HP engine. 

This would establish a nice industry inside Pakistan for heli production. You could save many billions long run and even export it too.


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> Any sales of T129 by Turkey is subject to grant of US licence for the engine. Negotiations are underway between Turkey and US.


your right. also with pakistan wanted tot with the helicopter which it does. then it must also seek european approval but this has been sort of by passed by turkey making some of the systems. but with every thing being high tech and sensitive, there will always be strings if such a deal were to happen.

TAI's T129 Export Hopes Hinge on US License

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## TheConquerer

blue marlin said:


> and Europe will be reluctant transfer tot. so that deal was dead.





blue marlin said:


> your right. also with pakistan wanted tot with the helicopter which it does. then it must also seek european approval but this has been sort of by passed by turkey making some of the systems. but with every thing being high tech and sensitive, there will always be strings if such a deal were to happen.


I mentioned " Europe will be reluctant transfer tot" from your comment which is completely a false information.nearly all the critical subsystems has designed and produced by orginally turkish companies.and With the Collaboration Agreement signed with AgustaWestland, TAI.(Turkey) shall have;Intellectual property rights of the new configuration of the helicopter,Sole sourcing rights in the world for the fuselage, including Final Assembly and Flight Operations,Sales rights for the whole world excluding Italy and England . (Thanks to @cabatli_53)


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## Blue Marlin

TheConquerer said:


> I mentioned " Europe will be reluctant transfer tot" from your comment which is completely a false information.nearly all the critical subsystems has designed and produced by orginally turkish companies.and With the Collaboration Agreement signed with AgustaWestland, TAI.(Turkey) shall have;Intellectual property rights of the new configuration of the helicopter,Sole sourcing rights in the world for the fuselage, including Final Assembly and Flight Operations,Sales rights for the whole world excluding Italy and England . (Thanks to @cabatli_53)


i believe my sources, also OSCAR mention this and he has a good reputation for being correct. you may have property rights to the t129 but not to the parts that tai does not build, most obvious example engine the ir-sensor on the top of the rotor blades and other sensors and avionics of course you build some/most in house but there are some that you don't. 

does tai build the rotor blades and are the composite blades ?


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## cabatli_53

blue marlin said:


> i believe my sources, also OSCAR mention this and he has a good reputation for being correct. you may have property rights to the t129 but not to the parts that tai does not build, most obvious example engine the ir-sensor on the top of the rotor blades and other sensors and avionics of course you build some/most in house but there are some that you don't.
> 
> does tai build the rotor blades and are the composite blades ?




You shouldn't believe the source you have posted because Burak Bekdil writing in "defencenews" is not considered as reliable news spreader in Turkey. He always writes in direction of How his bosses want him to do. If you check his previous articles in defencenews, You will see that He is trying to do everything to underestimate/throw mud Turkish defence industry. He is the one who introduce Turkey's satellite launch center project as a threat for European countries and many others.


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## cabatli_53

blue marlin said:


> you may have property rights to the t129 but not to the parts that tai does not build, most obvious example engine the ir-sensor on the top of the rotor blades and other sensors and avionics of course you build some/most in house but there are some that you don't.
> 
> does tai build the rotor blades and are the composite blades ?



T-129 is an Italian/Turkish attack heliopter and Majority of production have been done by Turkish industry. In this aspect, Italian workshare is limited with some productions but having rights at ownership with Turkey.

Avionics, Communication devices, radars, E/O, EW sensors all are Aselsan made. Noone have a saying for them. There may be some minor component imports but Those are export free for each country. Countries all around the World import such small components for cost-effectivity reasons. It is the critical components that exportations require permissions so the countries that want to export their complete products, must develop them on their own.

For example, Image intensifiers for night vision





QWIP detectors for Infrared vision





Those strategic components are mostly used as a politic card for others that can't produce. If you don't have good political relations with well-known a few producers, It is impossibile to import them so It became impossible to export your complete products hosting those subcomponents. Simple diodes or other subcomponent imports on electronic circuits doesn't make any differences since Nothing strategic and special for them.

Related components







Missiles and launchers are Roketsan made and Noone have a saying for them.






Mission computer and electronic hardwares are Aselsan made and Noone have a saying for that.






Around %90 of total Fuselage of Atak is produced by TAI.





Composite rotor blades are produced by TAI.





Transmission and gear workshare is also included in Turkey's share and The rate of production will be increased in following year When T129B1 deliveries started.

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## Super Falcon

We arr not buying it than why we talk on it ATAK is out as we got supercobra deal


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## ThePakistaniHoneyBadger

Super Falcon said:


> We arr not buying it than why we talk on it ATAK is out as we got supercobra deal


You mean we got the Viper deal.


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## cabatli_53

Ataks are spoted while actively hunting PKK...

ATAK, kaçan PKK'lılara kurşun yağdırdı - Video 7

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## cabatli_53



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## soldier of Putin

There is no way Turkey can build this helicopter. This is Mangusta.


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## cabatli_53

Atak in parade 30 August








soldier of Putin said:


> There is no way Turkey can build this helicopter. This is Mangusta.




Rosoboronexport signed an agreement with Aselsan to integrate Turkish thermals and strategic subcomponents to its own complete products for domestic and export markets. Aselsan replace Thales thermal subcomponents on Russian products... 

ASELSAN'a Rusya'da yoğun ilgi - Anadolu Ajansı

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## soldier of Putin

cabatli_53 said:


> Rosoboronexport signed an agreement with Aselsan to integrate Turkish thermals and strategic subcomponents to its own complete products for domestic and export markets. Aselsan replace Thales thermal subcomponents on Russian products...
> 
> ASELSAN'a Rusya'da yoğun ilgi - Anadolu Ajansı




You don't have engines for this helicopter. You cannot build it and export it.


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## cabatli_53

soldier of Putin said:


> You don't have engines for this helicopter. You cannot build it and export it.



Is there anybody in this forum who claims that Engine is domestic ? Find a different subject for trolling dude...


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## soldier of Putin

cabatli_53 said:


> Is there anybody in this forum who claims that Engine is domestic ? Find a different subject for trolling dude...




They won't allow Turkey to export it. They export Mangusta for money, not that Mangusta has any foreign customer other than Turkey.


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## cabatli_53

soldier of Putin said:


> They won't allow Turkey to export it. They export Mangusta for money, not that Mangusta has any foreign customer other than Turkey.



Dude, Keep your wishes for yourself. World doesn't turn around your hopes. If you have a source to share, Do it. Otherwise, Don't make me report what you are babbling as a Troll...


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## soldier of Putin

cabatli_53 said:


> Dude, Keep your wishes for yourself. World doesn't turn around your hopes. If you have a source to share, Do it. Otherwise, Don't make me report what you are babbling as a Troll...




This is not your helicopter. This is Italian helicopter powered by American engines.


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## cabatli_53

Atak in operations against PKK !








soldier of Putin said:


> This is not your helicopter. This is Italian helicopter powered by American engines.




Atak is not Turkish but TAI is exporting them worldwide ? Atak is not Turkish but Agusta Westland put the name of TAI and Aselsan as the owner/developer of copter in their official webpage ? Dude, Keep your BS for yourself and STFU from here...

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## soldier of Putin

cabatli_53 said:


> Atak is not Turkish but TAI is exporting them worldwide ?




It cannot be exported. Italy won't allow it. That's why it has no foreign customer.


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## cabatli_53

soldier of Putin said:


> It cannot be exported. Italy won't allow it. That's why it has no foreign customer.



Are you a joke ?

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## -------

cabatli_53 said:


> Are you a joke ?



S/he is a clown, free entertainment bro

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## Peaceful Civilian

blue marlin said:


> i believe my sources, also OSCAR mention this and he has a good reputation for being correct. you may have property rights to the t129 but not to the parts that tai does not build, most obvious example engine the ir-sensor on the top of the rotor blades and other sensors and avionics of course you build some/most in house but there are some that you don't.
> 
> does tai build the rotor blades and are the composite blades ?


Engine is not big issue. Turkey can replace this from other country if we want . We should get two dozen t129 helicopters. 
Zulus, Mi-35, z10, and t129. Perfect combination . We are retiring many many dozens of helicopters. We need 100 + helicopters. We are already losing number games compared to past. It is just matter of retiring old helicopter which is bound to happen in next two years and we are left with less than half.


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## Blue Marlin

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Engine is not big issue. Turkey can replace this from other country if we want . We should get two dozen t129 helicopters.
> Zulus, Mi-35, z10, and t129. Perfect combination . We are retiring many many dozens of helicopters. We need 100 + helicopters. We are already losing number games compared to past. It is just matter of retiring old helicopter which is bound to happen in next two years and we are left with less than half.



you do not want too many choppers of different makes. then it will become a logistical and a maintenance nightmare.
the vipers your getting are very similar to the cobras you have, no problem there. 

the mil 35, well you had the mil 24 before and the mil 35 shares some components with the mil 17, so i heard

the z10 or the t129.
pakistan has to make a decision here to pick one. and i personally think they should go for the z10 and implement some of the t129 components /systems . this means your doing business with other countries and also you can pic the best of each thing your looking for.

its always immature to throw in we need 100+ choppers. but what numbers do you actually need


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## cabatli_53

At all conditions, An attack helicopter without Cirit like 2,75 inch guided missiles, can't be imagined in new threat concept.

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## black-hawk_101

Combat-Master said:


> S/he is a clown, free entertainment bro



Any Chances of PAA getting this about 30 of them?


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## -------

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any Chances of PAA getting this about 30 of them?



I think Pakistan (and Poland) has a close eye on how T-129A are performing in high-hot altitudes. T-129 is becoming a battle proven platform.

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## Secret Service

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any Chances of PAA getting this about 30 of them?


maybe not. just because of f**king engine..

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## black-hawk_101

secretservice said:


> maybe not. just because of f**king engine..


But PAA is getting Super Cobras.



Combat-Master said:


> I think Pakistan (and Poland) has a close eye on how T-129A are performing in high-hot altitudes. T-129 is becoming a battle proven platform.


Mi-35s and AH-1s should be in the hands of Paramilitary.

While PAA should have:
Super Cobras
Z-10s
ATAK


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## Secret Service

black-hawk_101 said:


> But PAA is getting Super Cobras.


15 AH 1Z Vipers , not super cobras. there is a difference. plus Mi 35 and z 10


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## black-hawk_101

secretservice said:


> 15 AH 1Z Vipers , not super cobras. there is a difference. plus Mi 35 and z 10


Nice Sir. But AH-1Fs should be given to Sindh and Punjab Rangers.


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## PWFI

black-hawk_101 said:


> Nice Sir. But AH-1Fs should be given to Sindh and Punjab Rangers.


we re getting two escardons of Su-35 for them my friend

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## black-hawk_101

PWFI said:


> we re getting two escardons of Su-35 for them my friend


which means it will be about 50-60  for PNAF.

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## Secret Service

black-hawk_101 said:


> Nice Sir. But AH-1Fs should be given to Sindh and Punjab Rangers.


araee bhai mazak acha kar lytay ho ..

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## black-hawk_101

secretservice said:


> araee bhai mazak acha kar lytay ho ..


Then it's better to scrap them and sell it to Japan and Korea who have upgraded their AH-1 Cobras.


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## -------

black-hawk_101 said:


> Then it's better to scrap them and sell it to Japan and Korea who have upgraded their AH-1 Cobras.



Bahrain would be a good choice, Turkey is developing a Modernization package for Bahraini Ah-1


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## nangyale

PWFI said:


> we re getting two escardons of Su-35 for them my friend


two squadrons of SU-35 for rangers?
So whats PAF flying...................saucers


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## PWFI

nangyale said:


> two squadrons of SU-35 for rangers?
> So whats PAF flying...................saucers


Honda 125

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## -------

Female Avionics developer testing weapons station

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## cabatli_53



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## -------

Combat-Master said:


> Female Avionics developer testing weapons station



Patch for the Female Avionics Engineer 





New footage of T-129A, with some footage of T-129B being assembled.

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## cabatli_53

Development of T-129 Atak helicopters' mission computer, source codes and avionics. 
Year is 2003-2004.
Project Code name: Ar-Ge 2004

First trials with Atak avionics+mission computers on Cobra helicopter

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## CHI RULES

Blue Marlin said:


> you do not want too many choppers of different makes. then it will become a logistical and a maintenance nightmare.
> the vipers your getting are very similar to the cobras you have, no problem there.
> 
> the mil 35, well you had the mil 24 before and the mil 35 shares some components with the mil 17, so i heard
> 
> the z10 or the t129.
> pakistan has to make a decision here to pick one. and i personally think they should go for the z10 and implement some of the t129 components /systems . this means your doing business with other countries and also you can pic the best of each thing your looking for.
> 
> its always immature to throw in we need 100+ choppers. but what numbers do you actually need



Dear Good reply considering limited Pak resources, I want to further add that though Zulus are capable yet PA should not get them along with getting rid of old cobras. We should start to use only two plat forms i.e Z10 with some Turkish upgrades for attack roles and Mi35s for transfer of troops in combat areas along with light infantry fire support roles only.
Further should also get complete overhaul/facilities alongwith gradual production of necessary spares.


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## Blue Marlin

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Good reply considering limited Pak resources, I want to further add that though Zulus are capable yet PA should not get them along with getting rid of old cobras. We should start to use only two plat forms i.e Z10 with some Turkish upgrades for attack roles and Mi35s for transfer of troops in combat areas along with light infantry fire support roles only.
> Further should also get complete overhaul/facilities alongwith gradual production of necessary spares.


the current cobras pakistan has are very old. the zulu's has commonality to the cobras so the cobras can be canibalised to maintain the zulus. as for the z10 i feel they will be the backbone of pakistan gunship needs. the t129 is long gone. if tai cant get an export license for the engines then they cant even sell it. now there is a rumor going around that the wz19 was spotted in pakistan now this can replace the t129. the mil35 is for anti drugs.

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## Quwa

Blue Marlin said:


> the current cobras pakistan has are very old. the zulu's has commonality to the cobras so the cobras can be canibalised to maintain the zulus. as for the z10 i feel they will be the backbone of pakistan gunship needs. the t129 is long gone. if tai cant get an export license for the engines then they cant even sell it. now there is a rumor going around that the wz19 was spotted in pakistan now this can replace the t129. the mil35 is for anti drugs.


It'd be ideal if the PAA can build a sizable Z-10 fleet for strengthening our borders. Pair that with local assembly, overhaul and parts manufacturing, and the PAA would be well set. The Z-19 is unclear at the moment, but it could be the PAA trying to see what brought India to develop the LCH, to determine the actual value of a lightweight attack helicopter and see whether acquiring one is worth it.


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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> It'd be ideal if the PAA can build a sizable Z-10 fleet for strengthening our borders. Pair that with local assembly, overhaul and parts manufacturing, and the PAA would be well set. The Z-19 is unclear at the moment, but it could be the PAA trying to see what brought India to develop the LCH, to determine the actual value of a lightweight attack helicopter and see whether acquiring one is worth it.


yes, the z10 is an ideal platform for pakistan, its cheap its big and more importanly it comes with no string attached. so yeh it would be good idea to fully comit to the chopper by co production and service and overhaul facility. but where will they build it? pac is full to capacity and it would require about half a billion to build it and kit the place up with tools and machines. they need more than z10's. they need to replace the seaking's and the alouette3's what will they replace them with. thats a good idea for a good writeup you should consider. i like your work and im a frequent visitor of your site.

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## cabatli_53



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## Quwa

Blue Marlin said:


> yes, the z10 is an ideal platform for pakistan, its cheap its big and more importanly it comes with no string attached. so yeh it would be good idea to fully comit to the chopper by co production and service and overhaul facility. but where will they build it? pac is full to capacity and it would require about half a billion to build it and kit the place up with tools and machines. they need more than z10's. they need to replace the seaking's and the alouette3's what will they replace them with. thats a good idea for a good writeup you should consider. i like your work and im a frequent visitor of your site.


Funny you brought that up because that is *exactly* the topic I am writing about right now


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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> Funny you brought that up because that is *exactly* the topic I am writing about right now


when will it be ready?


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## Quwa

Blue Marlin said:


> when will it be ready?


It'll be published Monday (today), but bear in mind it is merely a part one and quite simple in its form. I try to balance both complex long-form research and analysis with more frequent news-style shorter form writing. One takes a lot more time to write, the other is meant to be more nimble (with the news), but isn't a great representation of what I could do.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Z10 is a good sanction proof platform as ATAK is using NATO components. Turks offered ATAK but sanction prone parts make it difficult decision. Formidable platform though, we are currently evaluating it


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## Arsalan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Z10 is a good sanction proof platform as ATAK is using NATO components. Turks offered ATAK but sanction prone parts make it difficult decision. Formidable platform though, we are currently evaluating it


we WERE evaluating it,, right? 
not ARE ? 

What about the Z10 we received? Are the taking part in the anti terrorist operations? It was reported that PAA have pointed out some little issues, some tweaks they would like for future procurement. It would be interesting to know if they actually took a active role in the operations or were just evaluated and tested in exercises and simulations. NOTHING would compare to actual field trails and battle tests and that was the primary reason the Chinese gave these to us in the first place. They must have been put through there paces.


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## Sulman Badshah

@cabatli_53 @Combat-Master 

What kind of changes were made in T129 P6 ??? can you brief me on it


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## -SINAN-

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/737352796903723009


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## muhammadali233

Sinan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/737352796903723009


dem accuracies 

I guess the aw-139 deal might pave the way for a129/t129.

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## -SINAN-



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## ZedZeeshan

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1203859809632869

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## Sulman Badshah

Sinan said:


>


Deal is getting revived i guess

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Deal is getting revived i guess


Well if true than I hope we go for at least 24 of these beasts.


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## shah1398

Sinan said:


>



So whats really 20-31 May 2016 in this badge mean? What i have concluded is that Pakistan had tested T-129 in these dates in Turkey.

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## -SINAN-

shah1398 said:


> So whats really 20-31 May 2016 in this badge mean? What i have concluded is that Pakistan had tested T-129 in these dates in Turkey.


There were EFES 2016 exercises during 05 - 31 May 2016. I think Pakistan participated in the exercises during 20-31 May.

So, i think this patch is something like a gift. 

From exercises.

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## Sulman Badshah

Sinan said:


> There were EFES 2016 exercises during 05 - 31 May 2016. I think Pakistan participated in the exercises during 20-31 May.
> 
> So, i think this patch is something like a gift.
> 
> From exercises.


Which kind of changes were made to Prototype 6


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## -SINAN-

Sulman Badshah said:


> Which kind of changes were made to Prototype 6


Prototype 6 ???

If i recall correctly that was one of the 3 prototypes that locally produced in Turkey. Made it's first flight...years ago.

So, can you detail question ?


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## Sulman Badshah

Sinan said:


> Prototype 6 ???
> 
> If i recall correctly that was one of the 3 prototypes that locally produced in Turkey. Made it's first flight...years ago.
> 
> So, can you detail question ?


I am talking about T 129 P6


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## -SINAN-

Sulman Badshah said:


> I am talking about T 129 P6


P6 was the prototype..... You are asking it's changes compared to what ?

Are you asking for the differences between AW 129 and T 129 ?


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## Sulman Badshah

Sinan said:


> P6 was the prototype..... You are asking it's changes compared to what ?


No i am asking abou difference b/w T129 P6 and T129 B

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## -SINAN-

Sulman Badshah said:


> No i am asking about difference b/w T129 P6 and T129 B



T129 P6 is a prototype among many others.

T-129 A (EDH) is equipped with with 20mm cannon and unguided rockets.
T-129 B1 is equipped with additional Mızrak, Cirit, and Stinger Missiles.
T-129 B2 will be equipped with additional EW suites and milimeter wave radar.

60 T-129s will be produced.

First 9 are T-129 A
From 10th to 39th (29) will be B1 variant.
Rest will be the B2 variant. 

It's being expected, to upgrade the earlier produced T-129s to B2 variant.

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## -SINAN-



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## Sulman Badshah

Sinan said:


>


Turkey didn't sent production variant of T129 ,, Instead Turkey have sent T129 P6 (prototype)

*Turkish defense minister meets Pakistani counterpart*
3 June 2016 18:19 (UTC+04:00)









Newly-appointed Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Isik and Pakistani counterpart Khawaja Muhammad Asif met Friday in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense cooperation Anadolu Agency reported

*"One of the most important issues between [the two countries] is a deal for T129 attack helicopters," Isik said at a joint press conference held after the meeting.

The deal for the sale of the T129s -- a multi-role attack helicopter co-developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries -- will "further enhance our bilateral cooperation in the defense industry," Isik asserted.*

*The Turkish defense minister added that plans to purchase Pakistani-made Super Mushshak basic trainer aircraft were still in the pipeline.*

*He went on to note that the Pakistani authorities, for their part, had requested the purchase of four Turkish Ada-class corvettes (which would be built in Pakistan).

Isik also said that Turkey and Pakistan had begun discussing details of a cooperation deal by which Turkey would help modernize the Pakistani navy's fleet of three Agosta-class submarines.*

Isik also met with Pakistani army chief General Raheel Sharif on Friday at Pakistani army headquarters in the garrison city of Rawalpindi.

At the meeting, the two men discussed regional security and defense collaboration, according to an army statement issued after the meeting.

Isik, for his part, voiced his appreciation for the Pakistani armed forces' contributions to the fight against terrorism and promotion of regional peace and security.

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## volatile

>> TAI's twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack Chopper T-129 Atak, under trails in Pakistan. The testing has started only couple of week ago . . .





Strategic journal reports

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## Blue Marlin

i guess turkey has managed to get a third party licence on the engines


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## mingle

Sulman Badshah said:


> Turkey didn't sent production variant of T129 ,, Instead Turkey have sent T129 P6 (prototype)
> 
> *Turkish defense minister meets Pakistani counterpart*
> 3 June 2016 18:19 (UTC+04:00)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newly-appointed Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Isik and Pakistani counterpart Khawaja Muhammad Asif met Friday in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense cooperation Anadolu Agency reported
> 
> *"One of the most important issues between [the two countries] is a deal for T129 attack helicopters," Isik said at a joint press conference held after the meeting.
> 
> The deal for the sale of the T129s -- a multi-role attack helicopter co-developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries -- will "further enhance our bilateral cooperation in the defense industry," Isik asserted.*
> 
> *The Turkish defense minister added that plans to purchase Pakistani-made Super Mushshak basic trainer aircraft were still in the pipeline.*
> 
> *He went on to note that the Pakistani authorities, for their part, had requested the purchase of four Turkish Ada-class corvettes (which would be built in Pakistan).
> 
> Isik also said that Turkey and Pakistan had begun discussing details of a cooperation deal by which Turkey would help modernize the Pakistani navy's fleet of three Agosta-class submarines.*
> 
> Isik also met with Pakistani army chief General Raheel Sharif on Friday at Pakistani army headquarters in the garrison city of Rawalpindi.
> 
> At the meeting, the two men discussed regional security and defense collaboration, according to an army statement issued after the meeting.
> 
> Isik, for his part, voiced his appreciation for the Pakistani armed forces' contributions to the fight against terrorism and promotion of regional peace and security.


Its seems like a packge deal with turkey .i hope we will see T129 in Pak colors .Its a good Heli


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## Quwa

*Pakistan is evaluating the TAI T-129 attack helicopter*

The Turkish defence minister’s visit to Pakistan has been fairly eventful. In addition to Pakistan’s request for four Ada-class corvettes and upgrades for its Agosta 90B submarines, the Pakistan Army is officially evaluating the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 attack helicopter.

According to Defence Minister Fikri Işık via Hurriyet Daily News, “_One of the most important issues between [Turkey and Pakistan] is a deal for T-129 attack helicopters._” In fact, according to Milliyet, a T-129 was actually sent to Pakistan for tests, with Defence Minister Işık being positive about the tests, and the prospects of stronger Turkish-Pakistani defence ties in general.

*Comment and Analysis* @ http://quwa.org/2016/06/04/pakistan-evaluating-tai-t-129-attack-helicopter/#sthash.AXbTtQ2w.dpuf


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## Falcon26

Looks like Pakistan evaluated the T-129 from May 20-31st. Good development

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## IceCold

Quwa said:


> *Pakistan is evaluating the TAI T-129 attack helicopter*
> 
> The Turkish defence minister’s visit to Pakistan has been fairly eventful. In addition to Pakistan’s request for four Ada-class corvettes and upgrades for its Agosta 90B submarines, the Pakistan Army is officially evaluating the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 attack helicopter.
> 
> According to Defence Minister Fikri Işık via Hurriyet Daily News, “_One of the most important issues between [Turkey and Pakistan] is a deal for T-129 attack helicopters._” In fact, according to Milliyet, a T-129 was actually sent to Pakistan for tests, with Defence Minister Işık being positive about the tests, and the prospects of stronger Turkish-Pakistani defence ties in general.
> 
> *Comment and Analysis* @ http://quwa.org/2016/06/04/pakistan-evaluating-tai-t-129-attack-helicopter/#sthash.AXbTtQ2w.dpuf



So is it safe to assume that Pakistan is not happy with the Chinese Z-10 that were also in Pakistan for evaluation? Unless we are planning on inducting 3 different kind of platforms, a logistical nightmare that would be.


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## Quwa

IceCold said:


> So is it safe to assume that Pakistan is not happy with the Chinese Z-10 that were also in Pakistan for evaluation? Unless we are planning on inducting 3 different kind of platforms, a logistical nightmare that would be.


I think they'll be evaluating all options and upgrade routes thoroughly. If the Chinese come up with a Z-10 with a marked engine improvement, then things will swing back that way. If the Turks can put an alternative turboshaft in the pipeline (JV w/Rolls Royce?), then it can swing their way.

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## ZedZeeshan

Quwa said:


> I think they'll be evaluating all options and upgrade routes thoroughly. If the Chinese come up with a Z-10 with a marked engine improvement, then things will swing back that way. If the Turks can put an alternative turboshaft in the pipeline (JV w/Rolls Royce?), then it can swing their way.


I personally think Pak is looking for 3 Gunship platforms...it can be Viper, Z10 and T129 or any any 1 from Z10 and T129 can be droped from MI28...so lets see


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## mustafa erkan

For t129 only problem is engine.Yes we need permision but the important point , Pakistan is not in the list that cant be exported weapons.US sales weapons to you too.Dont you think at the begining Turkey didnt think about this.International laws releated with T-129 agrements works here.They cant block engine sales to Turkey and Turkey can export helicopter to countries except England and Italia .
Why we are devoloping our weapons to armament this helicopter is also for export.They can block sales with foreign weapons.I guess if Pakistan gets this helicopter it will use only Turkish weapons.

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## SQ8

The T-129 looks like a marriage of both requirement and wish. Pakistan needs more than 14 AH-1Zs and the Z-10s are practically here for show and tell; they arent combat ready.


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## RAMPAGE

Oscar said:


> Z-10s are practically here for show and tell; they arent combat ready.


And what do they need to be combat ready?


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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> The T-129 looks like a marriage of both requirement and wish. Pakistan needs more than 14 AH-1Zs and the Z-10s are practically here for show and tell; they arent combat ready.


the t-129 are signifiantly smaller than the ah-1z and the z10 so do you think it would be more of escort and kinda like a scout chopper working with tanks, or up in the north west where its size and agility will help with the wot. but still theres the issue of the engine licence


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> And what do they need to be combat ready?


Everything from powerplant, avionics stability down to weapons integration.



Blue Marlin said:


> the t-129 are signifiantly smaller than the ah-1z and the z10 so do you think it would be more of escort and kinda like a scout chopper working with tanks, or up in the north west where its size and agility will help with the wot. but still theres the issue of the engine licence


I doubt it would be doing anything of that sort. It can carry upto 8 ATGMs along with suppressive rockets. For 90% of CAS requirements against an armoured push, that is sufficient.

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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> I doubt it would be doing anything of that sort. It can carry upto 8 ATGMs along with suppressive rockets. For 90% of CAS requirements against an armoured push, that is sufficient.


well ok kinda but personally the t129 wont be coming to pakistan from what was a starved need is now a saturated need. you have the mil-35 z-10 ah-1z, the fennec to if you want to called it an attach chopper. the z-10 will probably purchased in bulk. whats your thought


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> well ok kinda but personally the t129 wont be coming to pakistan from what was a starved need is now a saturated need. you have the mil-35 z-10 ah-1z, the fennec to if you want to called it an attach chopper. the z-10 will probably purchased in bulk. whats your thought


If vested interests and a few brass are bribed(as they often are); the Z-10 will be there.


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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> If vested interests and a few brass are bribed(as they often are); the Z-10 will be there.


dont you think its for good reason on both sides. it will be getting a newer engines and the ability to make as many as you want with no threat of sanctions. and you can add some turkish kit too. the t129 is prone to engine licening issues and if it is granted then whats stopping them from not supporting these engines after you inducted seeral dozen or so.? same applies to the ah-1z that leaves you wil the mil-35. so don you think its best to have a reliable chopper what not sanction prone yet lethal. kinda like your jf-17's?
oh and bribes are everywhere. in fact im suprised you mentioned this. people will always care for themself's first before anyone else, even if its their own country. its cancerous, but true.


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## Savas-Usta

Turkey is developing a Gas Turbine engine for T-129 and future helicopter projects.
Turkey has as much concerns for foreign suppliers as Pakistan does.


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## 50cent

i dont beleive in this news unless real deal papers are signed evevryday reports of jf17 fighter being exported published on newspaper but nothing happened and getting hands on j10 but nothing happened it ended as a rumour


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Blue Marlin said:


> well ok kinda but personally the t129 wont be coming to pakistan from what was a starved need is now a saturated need. you have the mil-35 z-10 ah-1z, the fennec to if you want to called it an attach chopper. the z-10 will probably purchased in bulk. whats your thought


T129 and Z-10 are not similar.

T-129 = AH-1Z

Z-10 = Apache 

Now PAA has to replace the Cobra for that Zulu and Cobra F models are available but require congress approvals which are hard to come. Hence PAA decided to get the T-129's. The numbers would be high where as the existing Cobra and Zulu would make higher tier. 

If India finally orders the Apache then PAA would have no choice but to procure Z-10's and that would be limited in numbers so that they form the higher tier. 

MI-35 These are for medical evacuation and special operations hence they would not exceed 2 sqd. (30 maximum).

@Horus we need a Turkish Flag..


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> oh and bribes are *everywhere*. in fact im suprised you mentioned this. people will always care for themself's first before anyone else, even if its their own country. its cancerous, but true.



I supply the US dod, believe me.. I know.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> I supply the US dod, believe me.. I know.


so why complain then if bribes are the norm?


----------



## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> so why complain then if bribes are the norm?


Because the least you can do about a wrong is talk about it. At some point, somewhere, it might make a difference.

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## Hemlock Khalid

Is it better than Cobra Zulu?


----------



## Abingdonboy

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> If India finally orders the Apache then PAA would have no choice but to procure Z-10's and that would be limited in numbers so that they form the higher tier.


Apaches are already ordered by the Indian Air Force, deliveries will begin in September 2018 (along with the Chinooks).


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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> Because the least you can do about a wrong is talk about it. At some point, somewhere, it might make a difference.



true, the inevitable is that it will never make a differance. look at the agosta90b sub deal, some pakistani officers were supposed to get huge commisions [yes it went ugly and people died] heck we go back and look at a lot of the things pakistan has purchased you can debate with a strong reasoning that bribes were to play. the f22p frigate. its basically an upgraded ship from the late 90's why not the type 54a?the jf-17 instead of the j10?

so the t-129 is it gonna happen well not really but it depends on the usa giving and thridpary licence and a gurantee to maintain them. im not sure about its gearbox i think thats italian and made by avio.

in the end the usa will wrap you around its little finger 14 is too low of a number for one type of chopper and you will order more of them and they can stop supporting them when ever they want to with good reason of course. so do you want to play to the usa's tune. or do you want to do your own thing?


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## SQ8

Blue Marlin said:


> true, the inevitable is that it will never make a differance. look at the agosta90b sub deal, some pakistani officers were supposed to get huge commisions [yes it went ugly and people died] heck we go back and look at a lot of the things pakistan has purchased you can debate with a strong reasoning that bribes were to play. the f22p frigate. its basically an upgraded ship from the late 90's why not the type 54a?the jf-17 instead of the j10?
> 
> so the t-129 is it gonna happen well not really but it depends on the usa giving and thridpary licence and a gurantee to maintain them. im not sure about its gearbox i think thats italian and made by avio.
> 
> in the end the usa will wrap you around its little finger 14 is too low of a number for one type of chopper and you will order more of them and they can stop supporting them when ever they want to with good reason of course. so do you want to play to the usa's tune. or do you want to do your own thing?



The JF-17 had much less unscrupulous dealings involved. But as I said, there were people who were taken to task on certain wrong doings.. and it will continue to happen as long as more and more voices talk about it.

The armed forces have had too long a run as being the golden goose; and while I will also defend any unjust accusations on them, they do require being called out where they messed up.
Otherwise, one can leave Pakistan to the dogs.


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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Because the least you can do about a wrong is talk about it. At some point, somewhere, it might make a difference.



Hi,

Thank you for a wonderful comment----. As long as the conscience is alive---there is hope.

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## Blue Marlin

Oscar said:


> The JF-17 had much less unscrupulous dealings involved. But as I said, there were people who were taken to task on certain wrong doings.. and it will continue to happen as long as more and more voices talk about it.
> 
> The armed forces have had too long a run as being the golden goose; and while I will also defend any unjust accusations on them, they do require being called out where they messed up.
> Otherwise, one can leave Pakistan to the dogs.


well to be honest i like the jf-17 its had a great history and a good future ahead of it. people will have to look at were wrongdoing happen yes the chilcot report is an example but thats much bigger. 

i dont know much of the armed forced im not a man who's fond of armies i prefer intelligence, space, air-force and submarines (call me picky) well what you say of the army being golden gooses i will take as truth as you know more than me on that matter

your a very interesting character you talk about the briberys and mullahs ruining pakistan, which it is, but you dont seem very bothered. "one can leave Pakistan to the dogs" where did that come from? yeah sure living in the land of the free is good sipping on the mountain dew whilst sitting on the leather sofa or couch for you so called americains (your fb page says you live in dubai) dont you think people of your caliber should be the one advocating for change?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Oscar said:


> I supply the US dod, believe me.. I know.


In US that is legal because it is known as Speed Tax...


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## SQ8

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> In US that is legal because it is known as Speed Tax...


I am not sure you have an idea of what I am referring to.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Oscar said:


> I am not sure you have an idea of what I am referring to.


You are referring to Z-10's. Though those are not ready for being inducted still they would come if under the table deal is good. This is the reason I quoted the US policy of Speed Tax which expedites these under the table deals in a legal way.


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## SSGcommandoPAK




----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Army is looking for a platform to provide redundancy against the forthcoming AH-1Z. Russia has good combat helos, though it will be a bad choice politically vis-a-vis Turkiye. I think we should allow time for the Turk indigenous engine for this craft to be fully tested and inducted. No clear cut answers here.

I think Rolls Royce is making a push to engage in collaborative efforts with the Turkish industry in engines. Heard this somewhere


----------



## Savas-Usta

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Army is looking for a platform to provide redundancy against the forthcoming AH-1Z. Russia has good combat helos, though it will be a bad choice politically vis-a-vis Turkiye. I think we should allow time for the Turk indigenous engine for this craft to be fully tested and inducted. No clear cut answers here.
> 
> I think Rolls Royce is making a push to engage in collaborative efforts with the Turkish industry in engines. Heard this somewhere



TBH I think the whole engine debacle is BS disinformation. LHTEC is jointly owned by Honeywell and Rolls-Royce, if US denies engine sale to Pakistan then UK could sell it in theory.. Depends on the poodle mentality of the Brits..


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## ZedZeeshan

Blocking of engine by the US is just a myth...Turkey is a very strong NATO allay..US can restrict equipment sale to Pakistan but forcing Turkey is not easy...Turkey has a very strong lobby in the US.


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## Zain Malik

When the deal is going to be inked....!!
Hope their will be a good news...!!


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## cabatli_53

Brothers started cooperating silently and steadily
T-129 in Pakistan for showing capabilities to brother Pakistan Army !










In Efes 2016 Exercise, Pakistani top officials have witnessed the capabilities of Atak as well.

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## umair86pk

It will be better to ditch the Ah-1Z and go for Z-10 and T129 in numbers to have a better force instead of operting 3 kind of attack heloa


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## Blue Marlin

t-129 in pakistan

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## RPG

http://i.imgur.com/EwWGKV0.jpg
https://www.tai.com.tr/content/docs/tainin-sesi-101.pdf

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## -SINAN-

RPG said:


>



T-129 completed endurance tests in Pakistan's Pano Aqil, at the temperatures above 50 Celsius and at the Hindu Kush mountains , 14000 ft altitude. 

Pakistani officials requested, T-129 to flew from Quetta to Multan during a sand-storm without any refueling. Flight took 2 hours 40 minutes. Pakistani officials were very satisfied. As they said, "No other attack helicopter flew this range under these harsh conditions, T-129 broke an operational record."

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## mingle

Sinan said:


> T-129 completed endurance tests in Pakistan's Pano Aqil, at the temperatures above 50 Celsius and at the Hindu Kush mountains , 14000 ft altitude.
> 
> Pakistani officials requested, T-129 to flew from Quetta to Multan during a sand-storm with any refueling. Flight took 2 hours 40 minutes. Pakistani officials were very satisfied. As they said, "No other attack helicopter flew this range under these harsh conditions, T-129 broke an operational record."


I am very sure this Heli will join Army Aviation Fleet along with others inshaalh.

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## Sulman Badshah

Sinan said:


> T-129 completed endurance tests in Pakistan's Pano Aqil, at the temperatures above 50 Celsius and at the Hindu Kush mountains , 14000 ft altitude.
> 
> Pakistani officials requested, T-129 to flew from Quetta to Multan during a sand-storm with any refueling. Flight took 2 hours 40 minutes. Pakistani officials were very satisfied. As they said, "No other attack helicopter flew this range under these harsh conditions, T-129 broke an operational record."


we should test the bird at Siachin area .. more or less 20000 feet

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## mingle

Sulman Badshah said:


> we should test the bird at Siachin area .. more or less 20000 feet


It s possible but air is too thin there .


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## Oguzhan

mingle said:


> It s possible but air is too thin there .



Guys its a helly. Do you also want it to go outer space ? Lol.

From Tai's Voice magazine

Between Multan international and Multan military base

-Congrats! Is this your new helly?
-Thank you,inşaallah.
-What is your fin number?
-I don't know.Turks call T-129.
-Wish you a nice fligh T-129,

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## Sulman Badshah

Oguzhan said:


> Guys its a helly. Do you also want it to go outer space ? Lol.
> 
> From Tai's Voice magazine
> 
> Between Multan international and Multan military base
> 
> -Congrats! Is this your new helly?
> -Thank you,inşaallah.
> -What is your fin number?
> -I don't know.Turks call T-129.
> -Wish you a nice fligh T-129,


Multan geography is entirely different to what we are discussing here ...Multan is hot and Humid and have desert like condition ... 

we are talking about Pakistan North which is more or less 20000 feet and have temperature as low as -50 in winters ... 

India have already tested LCH in that region with weapons ...

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## Oguzhan

Engine of LCH is a derivated French engine.I think T-129's Rolls Royce engine can do it too.Maybe it is already tested.But if T-129 can not do this,then no way Z-10

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## DJ_Viper

cabatli_53 said:


> Brothers started cooperating silently and steadily
> T-129 in Pakistan for showing capabilities to brother Pakistan Army !



Nice looking Heli. Someone please put a cover on the chained rounds. From a presentation's standpoint and from combat effectiveness, the ammo rounds should be hidden and the chain should be covered by protective armor, like it is behind the chain of rounds. Why did they not extend it to protect the ammo?


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## Sulman Badshah

DJ_Viper said:


> Nice looking Heli. Someone please put a cover on the chained rounds. From a presentation's standpoint and from combat effectiveness, the ammo rounds should be hidden and the chain should be covered by protective armor, like it is behind the chain of rounds. Why did they not extend it to protect the ammo?


It is not main production variant ... Pakistan is testing T129 Prototype P6 ...If we ever go for it then I guess they will make some modifications


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## DJ_Viper

Sulman Badshah said:


> It is not main production variant ... Pakistan is testing T129 Prototype P6 ...If we ever go for it then I guess they will make some modifications



Its not really any modifications. Just cover the chain that holds machine gun bullets going into the gun. For one, it looks ugly (or Fugly if you know what i mean), and second, shrapnel from a small RPG or Mortar or heavy machine gun fire hitting this chain will break it, leaving the machine gun useless. And the machine gun / Gatling gun is its biggest assets if you've ever flown in an Apache or a Super Cobra. The gun rules!

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## cabatli_53

The number of T-129 Atak to be manufactured for Turkish Land Forces is set as *91*.

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## Oguzhan

I think the number 91 will make us one of the biggest attack hellicopter user of region.

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## DJ_Viper

cabatli_53 said:


>



Again, great looking jet with good fire power. Why on this earth is the chain with ammo going into the Gatling gun not covered with a blast resistance plate (the one that stops right before the bullet chain starts)? That covering should've extended to hide the bullet-chain all the way when it gets inside the chassis of the Gatling gun....

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## ZAC1

Pakistan always have taken a bit more advance version than the exported one n the inputs are always our


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## cabatli_53

DJ_Viper said:


> Again, great looking jet with good fire power. Why on this earth is the chain with ammo going into the Gatling gun not covered with a blast resistance plate (the one that stops right before the bullet chain starts)? That covering should've extended to hide the bullet-chain all the way when it gets inside the chassis of the Gatling gun....



There is a consideration to modify T-129 Atak B2 variant as something similar to this amateur image with around 300-400kg heavier take-off weight with longer endurance but 60kg lighter avionic called CATS E/O. It should firstly been requested by Turkish Army to come into surface.

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## cabatli_53



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## RPG

- A senior Pakistani delegation met with TAI Helicopter Group President Metin Sancar and review requests.
- A Pakistani delegation will participate the UMTAS qualification tests in the coming months.

http://c4defence.com/Gundem/atak-pakistana-bir-adim-daha-yaklasti/1032/1

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## Oguzhan

RPG said:


> - A senior Pakistani delegation met with TAI Helicopter Group President Metin Sancar and review requests.
> - A Pakistani delegation will participate the UMTAS qualification tests in the coming months.
> 
> http://c4defence.com/Gundem/atak-pakistana-bir-adim-daha-yaklasti/1032/1



I don't know if pakistan really wants to buy this helly but it looks like Atak will get old until they buy it

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

Oguzhan said:


> I don't know if pakistan really wants to buy this helly but it looks like Atak will get old until they buy it


deals are not done in days . first of all , Turkish army requirement will be fulfilled .


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## Savas-Usta

RPG said:


> - A senior Pakistani delegation met with TAI Helicopter Group President Metin Sancar and review requests.
> - A Pakistani delegation will participate the UMTAS qualification tests in the coming months.



UMTAS has a heavier warhead then Hellfire and thus more destructive. I'm positive Pakistani delegation will be happy with performance of both IIR seeker and laser seeker.

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## Kaavinsky

Those are some beautiful helicopters.


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## fatman17

As long as the T129 is powered by an American origin engine, obtaining an NOC will be difficult, instead the US will push the AH1Z down our throats and we will gulp it down like before.


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## cabatli_53

Unfortunately, T-129 ATAK was used by the terror organisation hidden in Army during the July 15th attempted.

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## Gentelman

Sulman Badshah said:


> Multan geography is entirely different to what we are discussing here ...Multan is hot and Humid and have desert like condition ...
> 
> we are talking about Pakistan North which is more or less 20000 feet and have temperature as low as -50 in winters ...
> 
> India have already tested LCH in that region with weapons ...


High altitude tests were at hindu kush at 14000 ft
And high temp test (50°C) were at panu aqil..
Third test were at Multan and the results beated all choppers tested there before..
LCH is light gunship not an attack chopper, you don't need an attack chopper at Siachen....


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## Sulman Badshah

Gentelman said:


> High altitude tests were at hindu kush at 14000 ft
> And high temp test (50°C) were at panu aqil..
> Third test were at Multan and the results beated all choppers tested there before..
> LCH is light gunship not an attack chopper, you don't need an attack chopper at Siachen....


i know about test ... 

LCH is attack helicopter (either it is light or heavy) it still holds 4 hard points for guided and unguided rockets/missile and 20 mm main gun ... 

To test the attack helicopter in siachin don't means that we will going to use .. It meant that to take the helicopter to the extreme temperature and altitude as the spec are provided by manufacturer ...


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## -------

Sulman Badshah said:


> i know about test ...
> 
> LCH is attack helicopter (either it is light or heavy) it still holds 4 hard points for guided and unguided rockets/missile and 20 mm main gun ...
> 
> To test the attack helicopter in siachin don't means that we will going to use .. It meant that to take the helicopter to the extreme temperature and altitude as the spec are provided by manufacturer ...



LCH does have 4 hardpoints, however the inner 2 hardpoints can not support guided anti-tank missiles.. Neither can T-129 because of space issues, however since Turkey has developed 70mm missile. It can be fully equipped with 16 guided missiles.






vs


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## Sulman Badshah

Combat-Master said:


> LCH does have 4 hardpoints, however the inner 2 hardpoints can not support guided anti-tank missiles.. Neither can T-129 because of space issues, however since Turkey has developed 70mm missile. It can be fully equipped with 16 guided missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vs


Still T129 Qualifies to carry maximum 8 Umtas ... Cirit are light weight rockets ... 

I am not saying that LCH is better ... T129 is better in payload/avionics etc ...


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## cabatli_53

Sulman Badshah said:


> LCH is attack helicopter (either it is light or heavy) * it still holds 4 hard points for guided and unguided rockets/missile* and 20 mm main gun ...



T-129 Atak: Outer hard points support long range AT missiles
Eurocopter Tiger: Inner hard points support long range AT missiles
HAL LCH: Inner hard points support long range AT missiles






I think Inner hard-points could be equipped with 2 Mizrak-U missiles.


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## Irfan Baloch

cabatli_53 said:


> Unfortunately, T-129 ATAK was used by the terror organisation hidden in Army during the July 15th attempted.


there will be some painful culling. may your resolve and dedication see you through. indeed it is sad to see a pride of Turkish military technology unleashing itself on its own people but I wish people dont associate it with the failed coup


on topic
I am eagerly awaiting some solid development in this prospect acquisition. the more I learn about this machine the more I feel certain that it offers the best of flexibility, reliability, legality and best technology mix that we can hope for.
American . Russian or Chinese rivals have their advantages but they all fail in one or more crucial requirements.. American being unreliable due to their mood swings and most likely sanctions.

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## cabatli_53

Sulman Badshah said:


> Still T129 Qualifies to carry maximum 8 Umtas ... Cirit are light weight rockets ...
> 
> I am not saying that LCH is better ... T129 is better in payload/avionics etc ...




Cirit is one of the best light weight missile system which is actively produced by Roketsan. It is able to engage all type of light armed moving and stationary targets preciously. Cirit is the main light weight missile system of T-129 Atak. Roketsan signed deals with Airbus, Eurocopter to equip state of art Cirit missiles to their famous helicopters exported worldwide.

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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> As long as the T129 is powered by an American origin engine, obtaining an NOC will be difficult, instead the US will push the AH1Z down our throats and we will gulp it down like before.


haqani and other haters will ensure we dont get cobras and I think getting NOC for an engine indirectly is much easier than getting an entire gunship which send Indians and their paid lobbyists into chronic fits

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> T-129 Atak: Outer hard points support long range AT missiles
> Eurocopter Tiger: Inner hard points support long range AT missiles
> HAL LCH: Inner hard points support long range AT missiles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Inner hard-points could be equipped with 2 Mizrak-U missiles.


Well if mission requires can T-129 be equipped with 10 Mizrak U missiles 4 each on external and two inside ? @Sulman Badshah


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Well if mission requires can T-129 be equipped with 10 Mizrak U missiles 4 each on external and two inside ? @Sulman Badshah


no not officially .. I think payload is fine ..as most of the missions requires 8 ATGM along with 38 rockets ...

might be true but it was cabalti own thought ....

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> no not officially .. I think payload is fine ..as most of the missions requires 8 ATGM along with 38 rockets ...
> 
> might be true but it was cabalti own thought ....


How much damage a single rocket can do to a Tank ?


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## Paksanity

cabatli_53 said:


> Unfortunately, T-129 ATAK was used by the terror organisation hidden in Army during the July 15th attempted.




Those are some awful clips. But that does not take anything away from T-129. It is not the helicopter's fault.

Folks here are talking a lot about engine origin. I have this understanding that Turkey will provide assurances of continuity of engine support. With correct diplomatic manoeuvres these assurances can be obtained. Just Turkish and Pakistani diplomats have to work intelligently together to get this from US. In all likelihood, Turkey would be guarantor to Pakistan and US would be guarantor to Turkey. Support will be routed through Turkey which will get it anyway to support her own fleet of T-129. I don't see much problem here.

*Edit:* Only reason I can think of for US to throw a spanner is to force more AH-1 purchases and deny Turkish industry foothold in the market.

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## -------

Might interest some of you, development of Turboshaft Engine in Turkey.

0:56


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## Incog_nito

Why not Pak-Turk works on new generation of Helis like V-22 type?


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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/774294185293836288


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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> How much damage a single rocket can do to a Tank ?



There are many different war heads of a rockets. If the rockets have anti-tank warheads, the tank can be damaged. 
If all missiles and rockets are spent, 20mm cannon could be fired at thinnest armour places on tank like at turret or rear engine area or sights to disable them.


----------



## -------

Indigenous engine in development

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## -------

Some info from Polish Tender

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## cabatli_53

Combat-Master said:


> Indigenous engine in development




The name of Turbo-shaft: TS-1400 (1400shp)
T-129 Atak current engine: 1360 shp

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## ali_raza

we should buy this beuty asap


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## Path-Finder

Combat-Master said:


> Might interest some of you, development of Turboshaft Engine in Turkey.
> 
> 0:56


thing that caught my eye is the turbo diesel engine for UAV! If that is achieved then running UAV on diesel is going to be very interesting.


----------



## -SINAN-

Path-Finder said:


> then running UAV on diesel is going to be very interesting.



Why should it be interesting...it wouldn't be the first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thielert_Centurion#Centurion_2.0

As far as i know Predator's Rotax is also a diesel engine.


----------



## Path-Finder

Sinan said:


> Why should it be interesting...it wouldn't be the first.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thielert_Centurion#Centurion_2.0
> 
> As far as i know Predator's Rotax is also a diesel engine.


The reason why I mentioned the project as being interesting is because of dual purpose or possible dual purpose of being used as a automotive engine as well.

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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1447015108647012


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## Dazzler

Not coming.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Dazzler said:


> Not coming.



Then whats coming


----------



## Dazzler

TaimiKhan said:


> Then whats coming




Z-10P


----------



## HRK

Dazzler said:


> Z-10*P*



plz explain ....


----------



## The Eagle

HRK said:


> plz explain ....



Isn't about P for Pakistan. Just saying Bro.

@Dazzler

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## TaimiKhan

HRK said:


> plz explain ....



Yups, it's gonna be future helo for us. 

And can u get checked whether v r getting mi35s or mi28s.

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## HRK

The Eagle said:


> Isn't about P for Pakistan. Just saying Bro.
> 
> @Dazzler



ya I know P= Pakistan .... but wanted to know the expected changes other then engine issue ...

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Not coming.


You mean T-129 not coming. Well there Government seems quite hopeful.


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## HRK

TaimiKhan said:


> Yups, it's gonna be future helo for us.
> 
> And can u get checked whether v r getting mi35s or mi28s.



I think mi-35 was confirmed by MODP ....

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Yups, it's gonna be future helo for us.
> 
> And can u get checked whether v r getting mi35s or mi28s.


Kamran Khan in his program claimed that Pakistan is getting 20 MI-35. I heard one other guy saying the same but I have my doubts. Personally for dedicated attack helicopter I think we really need to evaluate MI-28. Russia offered it to us during IDEX 2014 along with three Air Defence Systems



HRK said:


> I think mi-35 was confirmed by MODP ....


I am hearing that Pakistan has increased the number of MI-35 which we are getting





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=346449629021816

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## Super Falcon

Z10 Thunderbolt is great bird Pak army should cancel super cobra instead go for T 129 ATAK for more reliable seller


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## Sulman Badshah

Super Falcon said:


> Z10 Thunderbolt is great bird Pak army should cancel super cobra instead go for T 129 ATAK for more reliable seller


Pakistan order for Vipers are already in production ... and deliveries are subjected to be completed before september 2018

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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> Not coming.


@Zarvan will not like what you are saying 

Anyway, T129 was never a very realistic option or a high probability. Z10 were in Pakistan, we used them and identified a few issues that need to be addressed. That is the more likely option we will opt for!! 

Z10 is surely a great bird and will a great boost to PAA. Plus we have got those Vipers in production and will likely receive them by 2018 and that too will be great.

I hope Pakistan pursues some MMW radar option for Z10s as well. Quite likely!

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## Dazzler

Arsalan said:


> @Zarvan will not like what you are saying
> 
> Anyway, T129 was never a very realistic option or a high probability. Z10 were in Pakistan, we used them and identified a few issues that need to be addressed. That is the more likely option we will opt for!!
> 
> Z10 is surely a great bird and will a great boost to PAA. Plus we have got those Vipers in production and will likely receive them by 2018 and that too will be great.
> 
> I hope Pakistan pursues some MMW radar option for Z10s as well. Quite likely!




T-129 has several problems of its own. In recent tests, those problems surfaced again. Even if Turks rectify them, there is the engine and other components that are prone to sanctions. The whole idea is to induct a platform that is sanction proof and provide adequate performance when needed.

Unfortunately, the ATAK fails in at least one of these. And, it is more expensive than both the Z-10 as well as MI-28 Night Havoc.


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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> T-129 has several problems of its own. In recent tests, those problems surfaced again. Even if Turks rectify them, there is the engine and other components that are prone to sanctions. The whole idea is to induct a platform that is sanction proof and provide adequate performance when needed.
> 
> Unfortunately, the ATAK fails in at least one of these. And, it is more expensive than both the Z-10 as well as MI-28 Night Havoc.


Bahi this is what we have been saying and know for quite some time now but i was referring to what "people" will have to say. Anyway, Z10, as i have been told is a good machine and i hope the issues that we faced and pointed out have been addressed now. Also hope for a MMW to come with this. A Z10 with a longbow type radar supported by a squadron of modern vipers will address this area of requirement for some years.


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Bahi this is what we have been saying and know for quite some time now but i was referring to what "people" will have to say. Anyway, Z10, as i have been told is a good machine and i hope the issues that we faced and pointed out have been addressed now. Also hope for a MMW to come with this. A Z10 with a longbow type radar supported by a squadron of modern vipers will address this area of requirement for some years.


I still think Z-10 have least chance. T-129 and dual seater MI-28 have more chances.


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> I still think Z-10 have least chance. T-129 and dual seater MI-28 have more chances.


You think or your sources suggest that?

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> You think or your sources suggest that?


No this is my thinking I don't have any source on this one. Personally I would prefer MI-28

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> No this is my thinking I don't have any source on this one. Personally I would prefer MI-28


Shukar ha you are not stating your views and thoughts as facts for once. 

Oky i respect what you personal choice is and yes you are free to express that as well. How PA wont listen to that is any other story.

*Anyway, why would you prefer Mi28? Any specific reason? *


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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> Shukar ha you are not stating your views and thoughts as facts for once.
> 
> Oky i respect what you personal choice is and yes you are free to express that as well. How PA wont listen to that is any other story.
> 
> *Anyway, why would you prefer Mi28? Any specific reason? *


The Radar system specially that one which can be placed on top similar to Apache and also the firepower


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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> The Radar system specially that one which can be placed on top similar to Apache and also the firepower


What about the Radar system? Just that it can be placed on top is the reason? Or there are some specs that interest you? I have also mentioned how i do hope Z10 eventually gets MMW radar in PAA so what else you like in the Mi28 radar? 
Also can you please highlight the firepower difference? 

In the end, the most important question, the advantages that you may mention in your reply, have you considered that they are worth so much more that we will opt for a new supplier over a trusted one? Specially considering its current alliances!! 
I hope you will share these advantages with us and also comment on how they are worth the risk. 

Let us get involved in a constructive and informative debate here.


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> I still think Z-10 have least chance. T-129 and dual seater MI-28 have more chances.



You are entitled to your opinion. Who knows, t


Zarvan said:


> The Radar system specially that one which can be placed on top similar to Apache and also the firepower




Z-19 has it, so does the Z-10

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> What about the Radar system? Just that it can be placed on top is the reason? Or there are some specs that interest you? I have also mentioned how i do hope Z10 eventually gets MMW radar in PAA so what else you like in the Mi28 radar?
> Also can you please highlight the firepower difference?
> 
> In the end, the most important question, the advantages that you may mention in your reply, have you considered that they are worth so much more that we will opt for a new supplier over a trusted one? Specially considering its current alliances!!
> I hope you will share these advantages with us and also comment on how they are worth the risk.
> 
> Let us get involved in a constructive and informative debate here.







Even from my source I give news I hardly have clue about weapons. I am in learning process as for radar I am talking about the above thing what ever that is. Members tell me that this really high tech thing and I have no clue but what I have heard is that it pretty much brings MI-28 to Apache level. As for fire power well I just did some research sorry I was wrong it also can carry maximum 16 Anti Tank Missiles. By the way with current engine can Z-10 can carry 16 Anti Tank Missiles or not and How about T-129 ???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

There's always the Denel Aviation Rooivalk. 

Remember, the Rooivalk uses the same engines as the Puma. In fact, Airbus Helicopters (the makers of the Puma today) signed an MoU with Denel to collaborate on the continued development of the Rooivalk. 

Much of the R&D cost has been written down, and what's left is the amount necessary to conduct upgrades (namely in terms of weapons and electronics - all available off-the-shelf). 

The country to partner with Denel and serve as the launch customer will get transfer-of-technology and co-production rights.

http://quwa.org/2016/06/19/profile-denel-rooivalk/


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## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> T-129 has several problems of its own. In recent tests, those problems surfaced again. Even if Turks rectify them, there is the engine and other components that are prone to sanctions. The whole idea is to induct a platform that is sanction proof and provide adequate performance when needed.
> 
> Unfortunately, the ATAK fails in at least one of these. And, it is more expensive than both the Z-10 as well as MI-28 Night Havoc.




Which type of problems surfaced in trials ? Can you explain them !


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## monitor

Zarvan said:


> I still think Z-10 have least chance. T-129 and dual seater MI-28 have more chances.


Russia already decline to sell SU-35 to Pakistan so its doubtful whither they will allow sell Apache class attack helicopter to Pakistan against India . though they have sold MI-35 which was different class .


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## Dazzler

cabatli_53 said:


> Which type of problems surfaced in trials ? Can you explain them !



While making sharp turns at certain angles, the airframe shakes. The engine itself is a big no no. No fly by wire flight control. The price for the performance it has shown in trials is not justified.

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## Irfan Baloch

monitor said:


> Russia already decline to sell SU-35 to Pakistan so its doubtful whither they will allow sell Apache class attack helicopter to Pakistan against India . though they have sold MI-35 which was different class .


you are right Mi-35 is a different class and suits very well with the anti narcotics anti insurgency operations .. altough India wont like that Pakistani state gets anything at all to combat its enemies but Russians wont have as much objection as their top tier helicopter deal which will only happen if the relations take a dramatic upward turn between Pakistan and Russia...



Dazzler said:


> While making sharp turns at certain angles, the airframe shakes. The engine itself is a big no no. No fly by wire flight control. The price for the performance it has shown in trials is not justified.



I agree with the Engine issue although our Turkish friends are requesting us to trust their grip on the issue.

but this airframe issue is a surprise news for me.

hence my question ... what certain angles? that helicopter makes sleek maneuvers that are jaw dropping and extraordinary ..which look effortless and graceful .. the shaking of air frame wont have escaped the hours high definition footage .. this helicpter belongs to an established and proven Augusta pedigree.


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## Dazzler

Irfan Baloch said:


> you are right Mi-35 is a different class and suits very well with the anti narcotics anti insurgency operations .. altough India wont like that Pakistani state gets anything at all to combat its enemies but Russians wont have as much objection as their top tier helicopter deal which will only happen if the relations take a dramatic upward turn between Pakistan and Russia...
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the Engine issue although our Turkish friends are requesting us to trust their grip on the issue.
> 
> but this airframe issue is a surprise news for me.
> 
> hence my question ... what certain angles? that helicopter makes sleek maneuvers that are jaw dropping and extraordinary ..which look effortless and graceful .. the shaking of air frame wont have escaped the hours high definition footage .. this helicpter belongs to an established and proven Augusta pedigree.



The pilot felt jitters while making loops, and swift turns to the left. The A129 suffered a similar problem early in its life. Though not noticeable from outside, hence not captured in the video. The z-10 being a FBW chopper has excellent stability in most flight regimes.

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## ali_raza

Dazzler said:


> The pilot felt jitters while making loops, and swift turns to the left. The A129 suffered a similar problem early in its life. Though not noticeable from outside, hence not captured in the video. The z-10 being a FBW chopper has excellent stability in most flight regimes.


cant it be addressed.the shaking issue?or its a design flaw


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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> The pilot felt jitters while making loops, and swift turns to the left. The A129 suffered a similar problem early in its life. Though not noticeable from outside, hence not captured in the video. The z-10 being a FBW chopper has excellent stability in most flight regimes.


What I heard is only thing Pakistan didn't liked was Z-10 engine. Is it true I mean is engine only issue with Z-10 ?


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> What I heard is only thing Pakistan didn't liked was Z-10 engine. Is it true I mean is engine only issue with Z-10 ?


Engine and some recommendations to further improve its effectiveness as a weapon system.

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## Arsalan

Zarvan said:


> Even from my source I give news I hardly have clue about weapons. I am in learning process as for radar I am talking about the above thing what ever that is. Members tell me that this really high tech thing and I have no clue but what I have heard is that it pretty much brings MI-28 to Apache level. As for fire power well I just did some research sorry I was wrong it also can carry maximum 16 Anti Tank Missiles. By the way with current engine can Z-10 can carry 16 Anti Tank Missiles or not and How about T-129 ???


We are all in the learning process bahi. I would just like to say that do not believe in EVERYTHING the "sources" say as there always is a right time to break the right news. 
Anyway, the "thing on top" is a MMW radar (millimeter wave radar). Apache uses one named longbow and thus the helicopter name *Apache Longbow Helicopters*. It is a very high frequency radar system used as a short range fire control system. This enhances the target accusation and engaging capability in day-night poor visibility conditions and that is the edge it brings. The MMW can give a very high detailed picture of the battlefield for better situationl awareness and can locate multip ground targets for engagement. HOWEVER, Both Z10 and T129 will have a MMW radars so that is why i asked you the question about the added advantage. Again, the Z10 also comes with a MMW FCR. On a side note, the MMW radar on Ka50 (Russian) and Mi28 (Ukrainian) weigh about 150 KG and the Chinese one is around 70 Kg.
About weapon load, *Yes*, Z10 can also carry 16 HJ-10 missiles!



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There's always the Denel Aviation Rooivalk.
> 
> Remember, the Rooivalk uses the same engines as the Puma. In fact, Airbus Helicopters (the makers of the Puma today) signed an MoU with Denel to collaborate on the continued development of the Rooivalk.
> 
> Much of the R&D cost has been written down, and what's left is the amount necessary to conduct upgrades (namely in terms of weapons and electronics - all available off-the-shelf).
> 
> The country to partner with Denel and serve as the launch customer will get transfer-of-technology and co-production rights.
> 
> http://quwa.org/2016/06/19/profile-denel-rooivalk/


That chapter is closed now sir.

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## Sulman Badshah

Arsalan said:


> About weapon load, *Yes*, Z10 can also carry 16 HJ-10 missiles!


I am still looking towards a Z10 picture equipped with 16 ATGM's ... 

even in Pakistan it is using 8 ATGM's and small rocket pods of 7 each (it isn't using standard rocket pod of 19 each) along with ATGM's


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## Islamic faith&Secularism

The price of the T 129 forces some to come up with excuses in comparison to ther rivals' abilities and prices; maybe for some discount moves, who knows?

Turkey should not sell these birds to Pakistan, India is really a promising country at every level for Turkish industry.


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## Irfan Baloch

Islamic faith&Secularism said:


> The price of the T 129 forces some to come up with excuses in comparison to ther rivals' abilities and prices; maybe for some discount moves, who knows?
> 
> Turkey should not sell these birds to Pakistan, India is really a promising country at every level for Turkish industry.


Indians are going for Apaches


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## Islamic faith&Secularism

Irfan Baloch said:


> Indians are going for Apaches



Dear Expert, I have not specified industry with Defence, but said Turkish industry; India does not have to buy any weapon from Turkey, It is ok as long as its market wide open to Turkish industry. With such sales to Pakistan, Turkey puts some distance to India.


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## scionofPakwattan

Islamic faith&Secularism said:


> Dear Expert, I have not specified industry with Defence, but said Turkish industry; India does not have to buy any weapon from Turkey, It is ok as long as its market wide open to Turkish industry. With such sales to Pakistan, Turkey puts some distance to India.



Traditionally Turkey has always focused on the western markets and India has been a closed economy for the most part, naturally now as both these factors change, Turkey and india have started engaging in trade and commerce. But you cant compare all the economic value of relations with india to the strategic value of relations with Pakistan.Pakistan is a major Turkish ally in the Muslim world and an ideological partner too. Their militaries are positioned similarly in their respective societies.


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## cabatli_53

Dazzler said:


> While making sharp turns at certain angles, the airframe shakes. The engine itself is a big no no. No fly by wire flight control. The price for the performance it has shown in trials is not justified.



I need to give some info regarding the subjects you issued.

1- Engine is the most satisfied part of T-129 Atak at hot-high performance. They were tested on most harsh conditions of both Turkey, S. Africa during prototype phase and given OK. It is the reason same turbo-shaft engine is selected for Turkey's 5t domestic twin engine utility helicopter project until domestic 1400hp turboshaft is operational.
2- Availability (or not) of FBW a flight control system can not be counted as a problem but an option, Since Turkey has developed a fly by wire system which is being used on Hurkus trainer. T-129 Atak has four-axis automatic flight control system, weapon control system and mission control computer which offers an advanced navigation control parameters at even assymetric payload conditions in accordance with requirements of mission. Turkish Army pilots have satisfied.
3- According to reports, The shaking level of T-129 Atak (5 rotor blade) is less than the copters having (2 rotor blades) such as AH-1W, AH-1S/P. Not an issue whether It is making sharp turns at certain angels because Sharp turns always effect shaft or jet or fan powered aircrafts.
4-How did you reach the offered price that You are comparing price/performance ?

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## Blue Marlin

Islamic faith&Secularism said:


> Dear Expert, I have not specified industry with Defence, but said Turkish industry; India does not have to buy any weapon from Turkey, It is ok as long as its market wide open to Turkish industry. With such sales to Pakistan, Turkey puts some distance to India.


thing is that turkey has banned selling lethal weapons to india.


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## Arsalan

Sulman Badshah said:


> I am still looking towards a Z10 picture equipped with 16 ATGM's ...
> 
> even in Pakistan it is using 8 ATGM's and small rocket pods of 7 each (it isn't using standard rocket pod of 19 each) along with ATGM's


Sorry i missed you point, are you looking FOR a picture with 16 ATGM? or are you looking at one?
Furthermore, do not worry too much about a picture not being available. This payload can be worked up from multiple sources, you can even find weight of a HJ10 and add up 16 to get a better idea. The platform is able to carry 16 ATGM as per almost all the sources. 

Do share the picture if you have it or we should d look for one and might find it.


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## TOPGUN

Honesty , is see the Z-10 as the winner and many of us know that then why talk further about T-129 ?


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## Islamic faith&Secularism

Blue Marlin said:


> thing is that turkey has banned selling lethal weapons to india.



... in order to make some Pakistanis happy, resulting in bad relationship with India that is a bigger opportunity for Turkish Industry which is right now encircled by problems of neighbours.

I remember that confession made by an AKP member, and was the stupidest thing ever considering no gain in Pakistani market, but harm in Indian market for Turkish industry.


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## Path-Finder

Islamic faith&Secularism said:


> ... in order to make some Pakistanis happy, resulting in bad relationship with India that is a bigger opportunity for Turkish Industry which is right now encircled by problems of neighbours.
> 
> I remember that confession made by an AKP member, and was the stupidest thing ever considering no gain in Pakistani market, but harm in Indian market for Turkish industry.


you talk like Pakistan is forcing you away from selling your hardware to india. we are not like indians that go around the world making deals that part parcel includes not selling hardware to Pakistan to favour india. if you want to sell them your gizmos then sell it to them and don't use Pakistan as a hurdle in your sale pitch!

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## Corsair255

*The Rise of the T129 “Atak” over the Himalayas*

The T129 “Atak” Advanced Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter has now reached yet another critical milestone in its operational history. Having been successfully deployed in the Pakistan Army Aviation Base in Multan, during approximately 15 days, the T129 “Atak” Helicopter’s wide capability range has been put to the test by the Pakistan Army Aviation authorities.
T129 “Atak” Beats the Heat 50°C & Altitude 14.000 f.t.
T129 “Atak “Helicopter has proven its deployability with the Pakistan operation in May 2016. It was loaded into a cargo aircraft in TAI’s Ankara facilities by 6 technicians, within just one hour. After it was transferred to the Army Aviation Base in Multan, it took again just an hour to be operational.
Throughout the testing activities, the T129 “Atak” Helicopter flew to the highest and hottest regions of Pakistan Pano Aquil-Chor (50°C), which followed by Quetta, to conduct the mission profile of the Pakistani Army.
During the 7 flight sorties performed, Pakistani pilots had the chance to test the helicopter in day and night conditions with MTOW of T129 “Atak” (5.000kg) at 23°C @ 14.000 ft. Thanks to the dual identical cockpit approach, a game changer introduced by TAI, Pakistani pilots had the opportunity to perform both pilot and gunner roles, from both cockpits.
*
Terrific Performance*
Performance of the T129 “Atak” Helicopter was evaluated thoroughly during the hottest and highest conditions of Pakistan, evidently the one of the most demanding of the world.
Following a two-hour long cockpit familiarization training provided by the TAI instructor and test pilots, Pakistan Army Aviation pilots became accustomed to T129 “Atak” Helicopter’s cockpit. “This is the one and only helicopter that beats its brochure values with its terrific performance” said Pakistani pilots from Pakistan Army Aviation.
Within the scope of the Program, 59 (+32 optional) T129 “Atak” Helicopters will be delivered. As of today, 13 T129 Atak Helicopters have been delivered to Turkish Armed Forces and over 7000 flight hours were accumulated. T129 “Atak” has unique survivability features and asymmetric weapon delivery capability. The effective and precise weapon capability includes a 20mm turreted gun with a 500 round capacity, 70mm unguided rockets, Mızrak guided anti-tank missiles, and Cirit 70mm guided air-to-ground missiles and Stinger missiles for air-to-air purposes.

Sorry but i can't add the link due to not to have the necessary permission. 
You can visit defenceturkey web site check defenceturkeymagazine all issues and then pick issue "69"

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## TOPGUN

Great news but I still don't think it will enter service with PAA again I could be wrong !!




Corsair255 said:


> *The Rise of the T129 “Atak” over the Himalayas*
> 
> The T129 “Atak” Advanced Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter has now reached yet another critical milestone in its operational history. Having been successfully deployed in the Pakistan Army Aviation Base in Multan, during approximately 15 days, the T129 “Atak” Helicopter’s wide capability range has been put to the test by the Pakistan Army Aviation authorities.
> T129 “Atak” Beats the Heat 50°C & Altitude 14.000 f.t.
> T129 “Atak “Helicopter has proven its deployability with the Pakistan operation in May 2016. It was loaded into a cargo aircraft in TAI’s Ankara facilities by 6 technicians, within just one hour. After it was transferred to the Army Aviation Base in Multan, it took again just an hour to be operational.
> Throughout the testing activities, the T129 “Atak” Helicopter flew to the highest and hottest regions of Pakistan Pano Aquil-Chor (50°C), which followed by Quetta, to conduct the mission profile of the Pakistani Army.
> During the 7 flight sorties performed, Pakistani pilots had the chance to test the helicopter in day and night conditions with MTOW of T129 “Atak” (5.000kg) at 23°C @ 14.000 ft. Thanks to the dual identical cockpit approach, a game changer introduced by TAI, Pakistani pilots had the opportunity to perform both pilot and gunner roles, from both cockpits.
> *
> Terrific Performance*
> Performance of the T129 “Atak” Helicopter was evaluated thoroughly during the hottest and highest conditions of Pakistan, evidently the one of the most demanding of the world.
> Following a two-hour long cockpit familiarization training provided by the TAI instructor and test pilots, Pakistan Army Aviation pilots became accustomed to T129 “Atak” Helicopter’s cockpit. “This is the one and only helicopter that beats its brochure values with its terrific performance” said Pakistani pilots from Pakistan Army Aviation.
> Within the scope of the Program, 59 (+32 optional) T129 “Atak” Helicopters will be delivered. As of today, 13 T129 Atak Helicopters have been delivered to Turkish Armed Forces and over 7000 flight hours were accumulated. T129 “Atak” has unique survivability features and asymmetric weapon delivery capability. The effective and precise weapon capability includes a 20mm turreted gun with a 500 round capacity, 70mm unguided rockets, Mızrak guided anti-tank missiles, and Cirit 70mm guided air-to-ground missiles and Stinger missiles for air-to-air purposes.
> 
> Sorry but i can't add the link due to not to have the necessary permission.
> You can visit defenceturkey web site check defenceturkeymagazine all issues and then pick issue "69"


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## -------

Engine being developed for 5 ton helicopters;

Specs;
Sea Level Max Output - 1400 shp
Emergency engine power (30 seconds) - 1650 shp
Power-to-weight ratio - 6kw/kg
Service ceiling - 20,000 ft
Shaft speed - 23,000 rpm
Weight - 164kg

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## hassan1



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## mingle

Hassan looks like T129 is coming too.


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## Sulman Badshah



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## cabatli_53



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## -------

Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharif and Minister for Defence Production of Pakistan. Rana Tanveer Hussain at TAI Stand # IDEAS2016


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## TrMhMt

Is there any updates about T129 bros?


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## Zarvan

TrMhMt said:


> Is there any updates about T129 bros?


No updates and news for quite sometime. Things are quite after IDEAS 2016. We haven't heard any major news since


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## jupiter2007

*Does anyone know the current cost of these attack helicopters?
*
T-129 ATAK Helicopter
Agusta A129 Mangusta
Denel Rooivalk
Eurocopter Tiger
Bell AH-1 Cobra. 
Bell AH-1 SuperCobra
Russian Mil Mi-28N.
Chinese CAIC WZ-10
Chinese light attack Helicopter Harbin Z-19

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## -------



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## monitor

Combat-Master said:


>


Snow fall in Turkey?


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## -------

monitor said:


> Snow fall in Turkey?



Yes.

On another note, Turkey's Utility Helicopter 'T-625' will make it's first flight in 2018. Completely designed in Turkey with experiences gained from smart investments. Engine will be same that powers T129 until indigenous engine is made available..









Avionics development in lab environment




Parts development gears for rotor system

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## Oguzhan

4 cirit and 1 minigun, say no more


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## Super Falcon

Combat-Master said:


> Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharif and Minister for Defence Production of Pakistan. Rana Tanveer Hussain at TAI Stand # IDEAS2016


Why this rana tanveer never retires I heated his name since mushy era


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## -------

According to this website http://www.kokpit.aero/tfx-2030-yerli-motor which quotes TAI general manager




"We can sell ATAK helicopters under control, we will sell them to Pakistan in the coming months," Kotil said.

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## -------

T-129 in Pakistan May 2016

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## HRK

Combat-Master said:


> According to this website http://www.kokpit.aero/tfx-2030-yerli-motor which quotes TAI general manager
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "*We can sell ATAK helicopters under control*, we will sell them to Pakistan in the coming months," Kotil said.



what does he mean by this ....??

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## -------

HRK said:


> what does he mean by this ....??



He was being questioned on rumours of US denying engine sales to Pakistan. He says Turkey has control over who they export to, not third tier providers who provide engines.

Honeywell signed a contract to provide engines for Turkey's general purpose helicopters that's well over 3-500 helicopters to be equipped with T800 engines, Turkey is also developing an engine - so either they play ball or they will eventually be removed from Turkish market being replaced with Turkish gas turbine engine currently in development. Threats work both ways..

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## mingle

Combat-Master said:


> He was being questioned on rumours of US denying engine sales to Pakistan. He says Turkey has control over who they export to, not third tier providers who provide engines.
> 
> Honeywell signed a contract to provide engines for Turkey's general purpose helicopters that's well over 3-500 helicopters to be equipped with T800 engines, Turkey is also developing an engine - so either they play ball or they will eventually be removed from Turkish market being replaced with Turkish gas turbine engine currently in development. Threats work both ways..


I dont think engine will be issue we using Honeywell engines in K8 P trainers .Main issue is finance for Pak if turky offer a flexible line of credit that what that Gentalman pointing out if that sought out 200% Pak will buy Helis reason it passed all the test what been pitched againest her in Pakistan .


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## -------

UMTAS - Long Range Anti Tank missile still being qualified for T-129. With 10kg warhead, it is one of the highest yield anti-tank missile.

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## mrrehan

Horus said:


> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says Pakistan and Jordan are already Evaluating T-129 ATAK. *
> 
> News source:
> 
> DATE:01/10/09
> SOURCE:Flight International
> ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> By Luca Peruzzi
> 
> View attachment 110424
> 
> 
> Programme officials from the ATAK development team have provided further details of Turkey's T129 attack helicopter programme, as its first prototype has completed its debut flight.
> 
> Conducted at AgustaWestland's Vergiate facility in Italy on 28 September, the milestone event involved aircraft P1, the first of five prototypes to be produced under the Turkish Aerospace Industries-led programme.
> 
> Powered by LHTEC T800A-4 engines, the aircraft is one of three T129s to be built in a basic configuration, with the others to enter final assembly at Vergiate in March and July 2010, respectively.
> 
> Kits for the programme's two so-called Turkey Unique Configuration prototypes will be delivered to TAI in April and August 2010. These production-standard airframes will undergo assembly, integration, test and trials in Turkey.
> 
> Critical design reviews for both aircraft versions will be concluded in the second quarter of next year, and all five prototypes should fly by mid-2011. "The joint programme is on time, cost and scheduled programme achievements," says AgustaWestland chief executive Giuseppe Orsi.
> 
> Turkey has ordered 50 production T129s and has options on another 41. The aircraft will be equipped with Turkish-made systems including electronics, forward-looking infrared sensor, cockpit avionics and mission computer from Aselsan, and weapon systems from Roketsan.
> 
> *TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says the first T129 ATAK will be handed over to the Turkish armed forces in the third quarter of 2013. Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.*
> 
> Source link:ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success
> Turkey Presses Ahead with its Attack Helicopter Project - The Jamestown Foundation
> 
> " The helicopter program is seen as one of the flagship projects for Turkey's flourishing defense industry, as it will involve not only the transfer of advanced technology, but also the integration of various domestically developed weapons and communications systems. Moreover, since Turkey's TAI will have the exclusive rights to market and sell the final product worldwide, the project is particularly attractive for Turkey. Through this and other ambitious national weapons programs, it aims to emerge as a major player in the global arms industry. *Pakistan, Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan have reportedly expressed their interest in purchasing the T-129 (Anadolu Ajansi, September 25)*. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My photoshop Image for you guys depicting our Next generation Attack Helicopter Inshallah in Pakistan colors and this Image is dedicated to my Turkish Brother Cabatli 53 for his Great help and dedication.*
> 
> 
> 
> Regards:
> 
> Black Blood.




http://quwa.org/2017/02/12/discussion-pakistans-attack-helicopter-options/

With everything under consideration I think we only can fight with Z-10 because of availability. But yes we can co-develop the platform to be more heavy weight. Mean while some Mi-28NE to fulfill the gap along with existing AH-1Z. This is what we can do without even Russian let take advantage of our requirements. Pakistan is quite late announcing projects like KAMRA AVIATION CITY. But it also can help us on Army aviation Platforms as well in future.


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## cabatli_53

Combat-Master said:


> UMTAS - Long Range Anti Tank missile still being qualified for T-129. With 10kg warhead, it is one of the highest yield anti-tank missile.




Mizrak-U trials on T-129 Atak succesfully completed...

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## Path-Finder

cabatli_53 said:


> Mizrak-U trials on T-129 Atak succesfully completed...


Awesome! I saw some pics where a Cobra was being tested with opto-electronics and other avionics in a bid to modernise it. is that still happening or not?


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## mustafa erkan

Path-Finder said:


> Awesome! I saw some pics where a Cobra was being tested with opto-electronics and other avionics in a bid to modernise it. is that still happening or not?


It was for modernisation tender of Bahrain's cobras.

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## Zarvan



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## -------



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## cabatli_53

20. Atak delivered to TLF. 17 more to come in this year.

The show of strength of 20th Atak B-1...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/851006278914715648
New 3rd generation lighter and more capable flir CATS will replace 2nd generation 300T on T-129 Atak.

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## Zarvan



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This chopper with out doubt can fill the needs for Pakistan Aviation sector, Pakistan really has to focus on this wonderful plateform , sufficient quantity and latest Tech and unlimited Ammo which I am sure we can order and train more often with live Ammo


Z-10 / T-129 offer a nice 1/2 punch to have and build the aviation fleet around

Puma Local Manufacturing deal would solve our long term transport needs







The speed for Z-10 and T129 are sufficient for our needs and the range is also quite appropriate.

From weight carrying ability (Weapons) it seemz the Z-10 has some advantage and the T-129 is marginally lighter in that sector.

However the two platform offers a ideal combination to diversify the Aviation fleet


While PUMA offers a nice loal production for Transport Level chopper

*Ideal Setup Long Term*

*Pakistan Helicopter Factory *​100--Z10 (Licenced Serial Production)
50----T129 (Licenced Serial Production)
50----PUMA (Serial Production)
_50----AgustaWestland_ AW139 (On Going Order)

---------------------------------------------------------------
*
Short Term Benefits*
3 to 12----Mi-35 see how things evolve 
18 ----Super Cobra (Special Ops , over priced limited ammo, delays delays )
30 ----Cobra (Pending retirement bit outdated)

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## mustafa erkan

From the 39 th helicopter t-129 will have some design changes over the hull of the helicopter.
TAI is working over the new design. The lenght of the helicopter will increase and weight of the Electronics and EO will reduce. Projection is %50 increase of armament capacity.


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> From weight carrying ability (Weapons) it seemz the Z-10 has some advantage and the T-129 is marginally lighter in that sector.

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## -------

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> This chopper with out doubt can fill the needs for Pakistan Aviation sector, Pakistan really has to focus on this wonderful plateform , sufficient quantity and latest Tech and unlimited Ammo which I am sure we can order and train more often with live Ammo
> 
> 
> Z-10 / T-129 offer a nice 1/2 punch to have and build the aviation fleet around
> 
> Puma Local Manufacturing deal would solve our long term transport needs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The speed for Z-10 and T129 are sufficient for our needs and the range is also quite appropriate.
> 
> From weight carrying ability (Weapons) it seemz the Z-10 has some advantage and the T-129 is marginally lighter in that sector.
> 
> However the two platform offers a ideal combination to diversify the Aviation fleet
> 
> 
> While PUMA offers a nice loal production for Transport Level chopper
> 
> *Ideal Setup Long Term*
> 
> *Pakistan Helicopter Factory *​100--Z10 (Licenced Serial Production)
> 50----T129 (Licenced Serial Production)
> 50----PUMA (Serial Production)
> _50----AgustaWestland_ AW139 (On Going Order)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> *
> Short Term Benefits*
> 3 to 12----Mi-35 see how things evolve
> 18 ----Super Cobra (Special Ops , over priced limited ammo, delays delays )
> 30 ----Cobra (Pending retirement bit outdated)



Rate of climb for Z-10 is inaccurate, I bet the rate of climb is so bad that Chinese are not willing to disclose that information. One of the main reasons why A-129INT was selected by Turkey is because rate of climb, which is an important factor when you are flying in between and over mountainous terrain.

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## Hassan Guy

Maybe they could be built under license in Pakistan.


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## cabatli_53

T-129 aatak simulator developed by Havelsan will be introduced in IDEF-17.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/858667214538493952

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## cabatli_53



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## Silahtar

According to today's news, T129 was sent to Pakistan for trial purposes.

http://www.kokpit.aero/atak-helikopteri-pakistan-satis-plani


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Silahtar said:


> According to today's news, T129 was sent to Pakistan for trial purposes.
> 
> http://www.kokpit.aero/atak-helikopteri-pakistan-satis-plani


Sent recently? Or is it referring to the tests in June 2016?


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## Path-Finder

Silahtar said:


> According to today's news, T129 was sent to Pakistan for trial purposes.
> 
> http://www.kokpit.aero/atak-helikopteri-pakistan-satis-plani



*Indigenous attack helicopters are being studied for the sale to Pakistan*


Last Updated: 7/05/17 07:58:15
0


Ministry of Defense, the ATAK helicopters manufactured by TAI facilities with domestic pushed the button for the sale to Pakistan. Tests will be sold helicopter gunships succeeds Islamabad.

Turkey's domestic military helicopter attack in the studies related to the sale appeared to Pakistan. Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) produced by the T129 ATAK helicopter was learned that the trial in order to be sent to Pakistan.

According to information received from the Ministry of Defense officials, and makes its first flight on 22 April 2014 to 17 August 2011't TSK delivered ATAK helicopters, if successfully pass the testing process in Pakistan, will be exported to these countries. Thus, Turkey for the first time in the history of the Republic to another country level will have made military vehicle sales. Turkey's sales process will move forward one step of the domestic arms production is expected to be completed shortly.

Attack helicopters are mainly used in air operations against the PKK terrorist organization in the East and Southeast. Attack helicopters are defused by members of the terrorist organization be identified by the use of UAVs and bomb disposal effective tools. In particular, the distribution of actual terrorists in terrorist operations in rural ATAK helicopters also be used with howitzer cannon.

*BEST OF ITS CLASS*

ATAK project, the TSK assault and tactical reconnaissance helicopters to meet the requirements were implemented with the agreement signed in 2007 and 2010. First, the planning carried out as 50 helicopters, 9 Early incorporation include Helicopter (EDH) was added. AgustaWestland A129 body design, the TSK's needs appropriately engine, drivetrain and tail blades (propellers) has been changed. They also mounted a national weapons systems. In this study, resulting T129, the world was the most effective attack helicopters in its class.

Close air support missions and designed for multi-purpose two types of task T129 ATAK, challenging with heavy weapons load "high-altitude hot air" was designed for tasks. Close air support missions for the T129, up to 76 pieces of 70 mm unguided rockets and 500 rounds of ammunition capacity was equipped with 20 mm cannon. The T129 B in accordance with the multi-purpose tasks were integrated with the most modern electronic warfare equipment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

T129 was tested in Pakistan last year I think, unless this is a retrial.


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## Silahtar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sent recently? Or is it referring to the tests in June 2016?



I thought like you but the news belongs to today. I think it was sent to Pakistan recently.

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## Secret Service

Silahtar said:


> According to today's news, T129 was sent to Pakistan for trial purposes.
> 
> http://www.kokpit.aero/atak-helikopteri-pakistan-satis-plani


it was sent last year for trail and evaluation, and it was tested in different conditions. dont know about now, anyway i am anxious to see this machine with Pakistani flag.


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## cabatli_53

I think, The Atak sent to Pakistan last year was T-129A COIN variant. This time, It may be T-129 B1 variant to test onboard Mizrak ATGM and Cirit firings.

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## JK!

cabatli_53 said:


> I think, The Atak sent to Pakistan last year was T-129A COIN variant. This time, It may be T-129 B1 variant to test onboard Mizrak ATGM and Cirit firings.



Is there scope for different engines to be used in the T129?


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## cabatli_53

JK! said:


> Is there scope for different engines to be used in the T129?




Domestic turboshaft will replace LHTEC CTS-800-4A engines on T-129 Atak and T-625 utility helicopters, When development is completed.

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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> I think, The Atak sent to Pakistan last year was T-129A COIN variant. This time, It may be T-129 B1 variant to test onboard Mizrak ATGM and Cirit firings.



but I think Pakistani delegation was supposed to witness the live firing of antitank missile from T-129 in Turkey ....???


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## cabatli_53

HRK said:


> but I think Pakistani delegation was supposed to witness the live firing of antitank missile from T-129 in Turkey ....???




Yes but We don't know whether Pakistani delegation attended or not. I also don't know the reason of second T-129 Atak to be sent to Pakistan, just my predictions bro.

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## mingle

If this is true then we might see T129 in Pak colors


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Silahtar said:


> According to today's news, T129 was sent to Pakistan for trial purposes.
> 
> http://www.kokpit.aero/atak-helikopteri-pakistan-satis-plani


@cabatli_53 @T-123456 the Google Translate version is unclear, can you guys translate (at least the first several paragraphs about Pakistan)?

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## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @cabatli_53 @T-123456 the Google Translate version is unclear, can you guys translate (at least the first several paragraphs about Pakistan)?


The Ministry of National Defense pressed the button for the sale of the ATAK helicopter produced by TAİ with indigenous facilities to Pakistan. If the tests succeed, the war helicopters will be sold to Islamabad.
The T129 ATAK helicopter was sent to Pakistan for trial purposes.
According to the information obtained from MSB(Defence Ministry) officials, the ATAK helicopter, which made its first flight on 17 August 2011 and delivered to the TSK on April 22, 2014, will be exported to this country if it successfully passes the testing process in Pakistan. Thus, for the first time in the Republican history, Turkey will sell top-level military vehicles to another country. Turkey is expected to complete the sales process, which will take domestic arms production one step further.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

T-123456 said:


> The Ministry of National Defense pressed the button for the sale of the ATAK helicopter produced by TAİ with indigenous facilities to Pakistan. If the tests succeed, the war helicopters will be sold to Islamabad.
> The T129 ATAK helicopter was sent to Pakistan for trial purposes.
> According to the information obtained from MSB(Defence Ministry) officials, the ATAK helicopter, which made its first flight on 17 August 2011 and delivered to the TSK on April 22, 2014, will be exported to this country if it successfully passes the testing process in Pakistan. Thus, for the first time in the Republican history, Turkey will sell top-level military vehicles to another country. Turkey is expected to complete the sales process, which will take domestic arms production one step further.


Thanks. It's unclear if this was a recent test or the one from June. Basically, Kokpit Aero is making it sound as though new tests will be taking place.

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## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Thanks. It's unclear if this was a recent test or the one from June. Basically, Kokpit Aero is making it sound as though new tests will be taking place.


Maybe the tests started last year in June to end this year in June?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

T-123456 said:


> Maybe the tests started last year in June to end this year in June?


IIRC the T-129 was only there for a few days, but the Army did long-term tests (e.g. Z-10) before.


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## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the T-129 was only there for a few days


What kind of tests can you do in a few days?
Maybe your info is wrong and it stayed in Paakistan or they sent another one for a longer period for further tests.
He was talking about ''after the tests'' which would mean that the tests havent ended yet.


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## Saifullah Sani

The Turkish aviation news website Kokpit Aero reports that Turkey’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) is actively pushing for a Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-129 attack helicopter sale to Pakistan.

Citing Turkish MoD sources, Kokpit Aero reports that *a T-129 was sent to Pakistan for evaluation*. If the tests are successful, the T-129 will be exported to Pakistan. It would be Turkey’s largest defence export.

*Notes & Comments:*
It is not clear if Kokpit Aero was referring to the T-129 tests that took place in Pakistan in June 2016 or a different and recent set of tests. In an interview published by MSI Turkish Defence Review in April, the Turkish Undersecretary for Defence Industries (SSM) Dr. Ismail Demir said that Pakistani officials would be present at the T-129’s Mizrak-U (UMTAS-L) anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) tests. These tests were successfully completed at the beginning of April. Considering the addition of new weapons and systems to the T-129 via the T-129B, it is plausible that the T-129B will now be shown to the Pakistan Army.

At Pakistan’s biennial defence exhibition IDEAS in November, TAI officials claimed that the Pakistan Army was satisfied with the T-129’s performance – TAI said it was waiting to be called for commercial and technical negotiations. In February, TAI’s general manager Temel Kotil said that TAI had the requisite licenses to re-export the T-129’s powerplant, the CTS800 turboshaft engine, and that he anticipated a T-129 sale to Pakistan “in the coming months.”

Currently, the Pakistan Army has 12 Bell Helicopters AH-1Z Viper and four Mil Mi-35M assault helicopters on order. These will lead the effort to modernize the Pakistan Army Aviation (PAA) corps’ fleet, which is built upon legacy AH-1F/S Cobras. The first three AH-1Z are scheduled for delivery in 2017. The AH-1Z order will be accompanied by up to 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II ATGM. The T-129 appears to be competing against the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation Z-10 for a ‘plus one’ attack helicopter requirement.

Interestingly, each of the Turkish companies involved in the T-129 program offered parallel goods to the Pakistani military, especially at IDEAS. For example, Roketsan pitched its Mizrak (UMTAS) ATGM platform to the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The Mizrak is the principal ATGM of the T-129, with the 8-km range Mizrak-U being qualified from the ATAK in April. Likewise, Aselsan, which is supplying ASELPOD targeting pods to the PAF and is interested in supplying systems for the Army’s al-Khalid tank program, is responsible for the T-129’s avionics, countermeasures as well as sensor and targeting pod.
A sale of T-129s to Pakistan would not be limited to TAI, but it would likely involve Aselsan, Roketsan and Havelsan (for simulators) as well. Considering the industry-wide scope of the program, it is not a surprise that the Turkish MoD places a high amount of value to the prospective sale. Pakistan will try to secure co-production and transfer-of-technology benefits through such a sale. In this respect, the Turkish SSM has been generally receptive. In fact, TAI contracted Anka drone-related manufacturing work to Pakistan in 2013, demonstrating its interest in opening Pakistan’s industries to workshare activities.

http://quwa.org/2017/05/08/update-turkeys-efforts-sell-t-129-helicopters-pakistan/

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## Hassan Guy

Saifullah Sani said:


> Pakistan will try to secure co-production and transfer-of-technology benefits


This should be a prerequisite.


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## Fledgingwings

I wont mind this helicopter arriving in pakistan.Turkeys is pretty much busy with multiple indigenous stuff in the making.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Long Live Turks...U guys have some serious military stuff, capable of ripping apart enemy quite badly...So much with such style and fashion....Always supportive to Pakistan.

Pakistan is lucky to have Turkiye as brother. A country which never harmed our interests, always ready to help. 

I wish all Turkish defense officials/industry good luck in their future ambitions.

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## YeBeWarned

So Pakistan Army has put some recommendations to Turks and turkey has worked on it to re-offer it to PA ..same has done to Z-10's , seems like PA is very careful and want best bang for buck


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## Arsalan 345

Problem is money. We can't buy both Chinese and Turkish helicopters.but we need attack helicopters so much for our loc.


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## bananarepublic

they probably should go for a heavier platform than this ....


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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the T-129 was only there for a few days, but the Army did long-term tests (e.g. Z-10) before.


Weeks
based on what we know it was here for weeks but did went back. 
is this a new example sent for evaluation that we do not know about or is it about the old test, will have to wait and see!


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## S.U.R.B.

It seems that the army aviation will like to get a taste of those (limited number of )AH-1Zs first before they move on to sign another deal for another attack helicopter.The gradual replacement process will take it's due time.

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## The Eagle

Excerpt from Article....
http://aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/savunma-sanayisinde-dev-projeler-hayata-gecirecegiz/814384?amp=1

*"Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on giant projects in the field of defense industry," Pakistan Industrial and Production Minister Huseyin, who is based in Istanbul under IDEF 2017, said.*

"Hussein also noted that the T129 ATAK helicopter also continued to work on procurement from Turkey."


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## skybolt




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## Muhammad Omar

The Eagle said:


> Excerpt from Article....
> http://aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/savunma-sanayisinde-dev-projeler-hayata-gecirecegiz/814384?amp=1
> 
> *"Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on giant projects in the field of defense industry," Pakistan Industrial and Production Minister Huseyin, who is based in Istanbul under IDEF 2017, said.*
> 
> "Hussein also noted that the T129 ATAK helicopter also continued to work on procurement from Turkey."



T-129 is a giant project 
Milgem II is a giant project

what else we are talking about here???

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## khanasifm

ASELPOD Follow on order assuming you need at least 40-50 in total for the fleet of jf17 unless something changes

*'We will pass on the giant projects in defense industry' *
* "Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on giant projects in the field of defense industry," Pakistan Industrial and Production Minister Huseyin, who is based in Istanbul under IDEF 2017, said. *
05/09/2017
ISTANBUL - Gülsüm Incekaya

*Tenvir Hussein* , *Minister of Industry and Production of* *Pakistan* , said *Pakistan* and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on giant projects in the field of defense industry.

13th International Defense Industry Fair Hussein, who is based in Istanbul under IDEF 2017, had to explain AA correspondent between Turkey and Pakistan on business cooperation in the field of defense industry.

Referring to the agreements to be made under IDEF 2017, Huseyin informed that 52 training aircraft produced by Pakistan will sign a contract for the sale to Turkish Air Force. Hussein also noted that the T129 ATAK helicopter also continued to work on procurement from Turkey.

Turkey - Pakistan co-production battle project on the views and opinions about the continued Hussein, said:

"Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on the defense industry, and with the approach of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan," *Turkey should produce a national war plane, "Turkey will start to produce its own national war plane in 10 years. First, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will provide support for the integration of our factory, and the second phase will be a business alliance with the British Air Force, and at that point we will be the partner of this program in Pakistan. " *

Hüseyin stated that the* preparations for the business alliance regarding the construction of the MILGEM corvette vessels continued, "*We plan to establish a business relationship with Turkey in the MILGEM program. We plan to produce some vessels in the Pakistani Black Sea Shipyard and some in the shipyards in Turkey. We are continuing our efforts to increase our cooperation with Turkey in the field of defense industry. " He shared his knowledge.

Huseyin said that the joint ventures between companies such as Aselsan and Machinery and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK) and companies such as Pakistan NRTC and Heavy Industries Teksila (HIT) are continuing for the defense industry.

"We have been working with Turkey in many areas of the defense industry and we have had very serious cooperation in the past and the most important examples are the radio program which is very important for us and realized between NRTC and ASELSAN which is already going on. And most of the defense industry institutions of both countries carry out many programs through business associations.At recent, we built the construction of 17 thousand tons capacity fuel tank in the Karachi Shipyard with the construction of Turkey in accordance with the needs of Pakistan Naval Forces, Super Mushshak soldier Agreement was also reached on the purchase of training aircraft. "

* "We have carried our good relations with Erdoğan to much better levels" *
Indicating that Pakistan is always in Turkey for any international or regional problem, Hussein concluded his words as follows:

"We support each other and support each other in the field and our mutual solidarity is the same even in all international forums, if Turkey is an international or regional problem, we are always behind, and in the same way Turkey supports Pakistan in every platform. Mr. Erdogan has always been at the forefront of bilateral relations between Turkey and Pakistan, and President Nawaz Sharif has always supported and defended relations with the same feelings. This is a situation that further supports the current atmosphere, and our share in all areas is growing day by day, and our commercial and military agreements are the best indicators. "


----------



## M.ASIF AMIN

PAK T-129 TEST
Turkish magazine MSI Issue 31 Nov2016 at IDEAS 2016 www.milscint.com

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## Zarvan

Dunya news is saying Pakistan and Turkey will jointly produce T-129 and plant will be established at Kamra ??????????


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## Zarvan

According to Dunya news Pakistan and Turkey will jointly produce T-129 Attack Helicopter and plant for its production will be established at PAC KAMRA.

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

I too recently read this news on dunya tv.if news is true , then there is no chance for Z10.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> According to Dunya news Pakistan and Turkey will jointly produce T-129 Attack Helicopter and plant for its production will be established at PAC KAMRA.


Hazrat Munh mittha karao!!!!!


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## SQ8

Prefer press releases from TAI or PAC

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

Oscardiscloset: 9469889 said:


> Prefer press releases from TAI or PAC


They did not disclose their source of info


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## damm1t

It's an open-source attack helicopter for Pakistan only. If it's true, enjoy it then

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## NakedLunch

Pakistan is doing exactly what is needed- deeper co-operation with our Turkish and Chinese brothers. Throw in Saudi money and our own local development and we will have a formidable defence industry within a decade.

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## Areesh

Won't be surprised if news is true. However there are still issues like engine that needs to be sorted out.

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## Chak Bamu

I can not just accept this news without any source. I saw the Dunya News ticker, but could not find any confirmation. Let us see.

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## Hassan Guy

Fake.

Its WAY to good to be true.

I will drag my butt on my lawn if real.

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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> Dunya news is saying Pakistan and Turkey will jointly produce T-129 and plant will be established at Kamra ??????????




It means the deal is close and The Ataks to be manufactured will be carried out under a collaboration between Turkey and Pakistan. I mean It will not be a direct order project. Atak have joined many terror operations in Turkey and proved the effectiveness without meeting any problem.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Oh shit...Oh shit...Oh shit...

Turks are coming !!! 

Where is Turkish flag??? Let me wave it....



By the way, please confirm whether it is true or not...

Either way, I m not going to put this flag down...

@HAKIKAT ....Bro, your glitters are needed on this thread as well. 



Hassan Guy said:


> Fake.
> 
> Its WAY to good to be true.
> 
> I will drag my butt on my lawn if true.



I share your enthusiasm, man . Yo !!!

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

Congratulations. Bass ab news wapis na ley lena .

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## Zarvan

Hassan Guy said:


> Fake.
> 
> Its WAY to good to be true.
> 
> I will drag my butt on my lawn if true.


No it was bound to happen. Engine can come from Italy if USA creates issue

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## YeBeWarned

Can't say about T-129 but I am pretty sure that TAI and KAMRA will work on TFX in near future ..in attack helicopters PA has multiple choices Z-10's , T-129 , and AH-Z1 Zulu .. but buying T-129 in small numbers for Friendship sake, it won't be bad idea .. I wonder how T-129 is different from AH-Z1 ?

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## Zarvan

Starlord said:


> Can't say about T-129 but I am pretty sure that TAI and KAMRA will work on TFX in near future ..in attack helicopters PA has multiple choices Z-10's , T-129 , and AH-Z1 Zulu .. but buying T-129 in small numbers for Friendship sake, it won't be bad idea .. I wonder how T-129 is different from AH-Z1 ?


Z-10 is not coming Zulus will come but even if we double the order to 30 still they are not enough for Pakistan needs we need at least 100 Attack Helicopters so T-129 is coming.



Hassan Guy said:


> Fake.
> 
> Its WAY to good to be true.
> 
> I will drag my butt on my lawn if real.


I have one laptop and one TV but I use google chrome and open lot of tabs to do it

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## YeBeWarned

Zarvan said:


> Z-10 is not coming Zulus will come but even if we double the order to 30 still they are not enough for Pakistan needs we need at least 100 Attack Helicopters so T-129 is coming.
> 
> 
> I have one laptop and one TV but I use google chrome and open lot of tabs to do it



Z-10 was heavy Attack helicopter compared to T-129 , i don't what happen to those 3 units Chinese send for evaluation but there must be something which is happening behind closed doors .. If we can get our hands on 40-50 Ah-Z1 and 30+ Z-10 or T-129 it will be a formidable force for counter insurgency and tackling IA armored Corps.


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## Muhammad Omar

cabatli_53 said:


> It means the deal is close and The Ataks to be manufactured will be carried out under a collaboration between Turkey and Pakistan. I mean It will not be a direct order project. Atak have joined many terror operations in Turkey and proved the effectiveness without meeting any problem.



can you please confirm which defence projects and what things Pakistan is getting from Turkey??


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## Zarvan

Starlord said:


> Z-10 was heavy Attack helicopter compared to T-129 , i don't what happen to those 3 units Chinese send for evaluation but there must be something which is happening behind closed doors .. If we can get our hands on 40-50 Ah-Z1 and 30+ Z-10 or T-129 it will be a formidable force for counter insurgency and tackling IA armored Corps.


Those Units are returned and as for Zulus we would get maximum 30 not more than and we need around 100 dedicated attack helicopters so 70 to 80 T-129 will be inducted in next few years

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Beginning of Pakistan's helicopter industry.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Oh shit...Oh shit...Oh shit...
> 
> Turks are coming !!!
> 
> Where is Turkish flag??? Let me wave it....
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, please confirm whether it is true or not...
> 
> Either way, I m not going to put this flag down...
> 
> @HAKIKAT ....Bro, your glitters are needed on this thread as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I share your enthusiasm, man . Yo !!!



_Kardeshim_!!! I have no insider knowledge or anything of these sorts, nor I am a defense expert. Some intuitions and observations at best. Here are few for you:

What Pak thinks today, the rest of the Muslim countries think tomorrow. (Translation: some miss the boat!!!)
What Pak requires today, Turkey produces tomorrow, and day after tomorrow it comes back with TOT/productions etc.
Whatever Turkish defense products are ultimately make it a home in Pak too!!!
Based on these premises, it may be inferred that T-129 or some versions of it could end up in Pak!!!

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## Readerdefence

M.ASIF AMIN said:


> PAK T-129 TEST
> Turkish magazine MSI Issue 31 Nov2016 at IDEAS 2016 www.milscint.com


Thx for such a detailed journey for t129


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## Readerdefence

Hassan Guy said:


> Fake.
> 
> Its WAY to good to be true.
> 
> I will drag my butt on my lawn if real.


But bro use some extra padded thing before dragging 



Zarvan said:


> Z-10 is not coming Zulus will come but even if we double the order to 30 still they are not enough for Pakistan needs we need at least 100 Attack Helicopters so T-129 is coming.
> 
> 
> I have one laptop and one TV but I use google chrome and open lot of tabs to do it


Hi bro can you put up a comparison chart for both helos 
But please put up something up to date 
Thx

Z10 saga is not over only thing the Chinese been told by PA is to put up with 
More powerful engine so z10 can carry with a full blown out load of 16 anti tank missiles
And longbow kind of radar

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## YeBeWarned

HAKIKAT said:


> _Kardeshim_!!! I have no insider knowledge or anything of these sorts, nor I am a defense expert. Some intuitions and observations at best. Here are few for you:
> 
> What Pak thinks today, the rest of the Muslim countries think tomorrow. (Translation: some miss the boat!!!)
> What Pak requires today, Turkey produces tomorrow, and day after tomorrow it comes back with TOT/productions etc.
> Whatever Turkish defense products are ultimately make it a home in Pak too!!!
> Based on these premises, it may be inferred that T-129 or some versions of it could end up in Pak!!!



What i was thinking bro, that maybe US shows some sign that they wont be selling more Zulu's to Pakistan after the initial order of 12-15 units ..if that is true than assembly line of T-129 in Pakistan will make a lot of sense, PA can get Engine from Turkey, like we get Engine of JF-17 through China ..

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## CHACHA"G"

Dam man to good to be true , But I know one thing , Big things going to happen soon. Z-10s went through extensive testing by PA and Its Us who helped for Z-10(Thank you USA) I am more convince for arrival of them with better engine(only Issue left).
I bleed Green and I hope and Pray for the best.

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## MastanKhan

CHACHA"G" said:


> Dam man to good to be true , But I know one thing , Big things going to happen soon. Z-10s went through extensive testing by PA and Its Us who helped for Z-10(Thank you USA) I am more convince for arrival of them with better engine(only Issue left).
> I bleed Green and I hope and Pray for the best.



Hi,

Many a deals were supposed to be signed in march this year---but the delay came due to panama, and the military tweets---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Many a deals were supposed to be signed in march this year---but the delay came due to panama, and the military tweets---.


They're also waiting to get closer to the budget - guarantee funds for upcoming payments.

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## Hassan Guy

Anyone sub'd to aviation week?
http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/pakistan-turkey-enhance-aerospace-relationship


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## ziaulislam

Areesh said:


> Won't be surprised if news is true. However there are still issues like engine that needs to be sorted out.


Likely fake news as Pakistan opted for expensive zulus already . engine issue can be solved once the work on turkiah engine is completed. This would be the right time to join their utility helicopter program


----------



## Areesh

ziaulislam said:


> Likely fake news as Pakistan opted for expensive zulus already . engine issue can be solved once the work on turkiah engine is completed. This would be the right time to join their utility helicopter program



Pakistan is going to buy only 12 zulus. I don't think anymore would be coming. Even if Pak would opt for more, at max we might have around 20 AH1z. Now 20 Ah1Z aren't going to replace PA need of around 60-70 choppers. 

So news is definitely not fake. If engine issue can be resolved then T129 are a very strong possibility.

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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Pakistan is going to buy only 12 zulus. I don't think anymore would be coming. Even if Pak would opt for more, at max we might have around 20 AH1z. Now 20 Ah1Z aren't going to replace PA need of around 60-70 choppers.
> 
> So news is definitely not fake. If engine issue can be resolved then T129 are a very strong possibility.


We are buying 15 and most likely we are going to buy 15 more and T-129 is for sure coming



ziaulislam said:


> Likely fake news as Pakistan opted for expensive zulus already . engine issue can be solved once the work on turkiah engine is completed. This would be the right time to join their utility helicopter program


Zulus is separate thing even with Zulus coming and even if we double the order of Zulus still one other dedicated attack helicopter is needed and in large numbers for that T-129 is the most likely option

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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> We are buying 15 and most likely we are going to buy 15 more and T-129 is for sure coming



Don't think more zulus would be coming. Zulus would serve in very limited numbers in PA.


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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Don't think more zulus would be coming. Zulus would serve in very limited numbers in PA.


Well 15 are coming first order is of 15 and Pakistan will try to double the order


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## HAIDER

Zarvan said:


> Well 15 are coming first order is of 15 and Pakistan will try to double the order


If US offered subsidized pricing on next package

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## ziaulislam

Areesh said:


> Pakistan is going to buy only 12 zulus. I don't think anymore would be coming. Even if Pak would opt for more, at max we might have around 20 AH1z. Now 20 Ah1Z aren't going to replace PA need of around 60-70 choppers.
> 
> So news is definitely not fake. If engine issue can be resolved then T129 are a very strong possibility.


i beive PAF will opt for ZULU + Z10
initialy i thought it would be t129+z 10 but ZULU were released


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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> Well 15 are coming first order is of 15 and Pakistan will try to double the order



12 are coming. And for now there is no confirm news of 15 more coming.



ziaulislam said:


> i beive PAF will opt for ZULU + Z10
> initialy i thought it would be t129+z 10 but ZULU were released



PA. Not PAF. Zulu as I said would be very limited in numbers.


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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> 12 are coming. And for now there is no confirm news of 15 more coming.
> 
> 
> 
> PA. Not PAF. Zulu as I said would be very limited in numbers.


15 are coming not 12 the order is of 15 Helicopters not 12.


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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> 15 are coming not 12 the order is of 15 Helicopters not 12.



15 were allowed by US. 12 were ordered by Pakistan. 3 in 2017. 9 in 2018l


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## Zarvan

*Pakistan enters contract with Turkey to manufacture war copters*








*NNI*

inShare
Pakistan has entered an agreement with Turkey to manufacture Ada class corvettes and T-129 helicopters.

The agreement was signed by Minister for Defence, Rana Tanvir and his Turkish counterpart.

The corvettes clock 54 kilometres per hour and support the most advanced GPS system and sensors. They also are equipped to launch anti-surface missile, anti-aircraft missile and torpedoes.

Assembly line of T-129 is to be established at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra.

http://nation.com.pk/national/12-Ma...ntract-with-turkey-to-manufacture-war-copters

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## Rafael

Zarvan said:


> *Pakistan enters contract with Turkey to manufacture war copters*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *NNI*
> 
> inShare
> Pakistan has entered an agreement with Turkey to manufacture Ada class corvettes and T-129 helicopters.
> 
> The agreement was signed by Minister for Defence, Rana Tanvir and his Turkish counterpart.
> 
> The corvettes clock 54 kilometres per hour and support the most advanced GPS system and sensors. They also are equipped to launch anti-surface missile, anti-aircraft missile and torpedoes.
> 
> Assembly line of T-129 is to be established at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra.
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/national/12-Ma...ntract-with-turkey-to-manufacture-war-copters



Damn! Unbelievable. If true, halwa poori on the house!

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> *Pakistan enters contract with Turkey to manufacture war copters*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *NNI*
> 
> inShare
> Pakistan has entered an agreement with Turkey to manufacture Ada class corvettes and T-129 helicopters.
> 
> The agreement was signed by Minister for Defence, Rana Tanvir and his Turkish counterpart.
> 
> The corvettes clock 54 kilometres per hour and support the most advanced GPS system and sensors. They also are equipped to launch anti-surface missile, anti-aircraft missile and torpedoes.
> 
> Assembly line of T-129 is to be established at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra.
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/national/12-Ma...ntract-with-turkey-to-manufacture-war-copters


Hazrat??


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat??


This is also talking about T-129 deal with TOT

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> This is also talking about T-129 deal with TOT


Hazrat when are we getting our mithai?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat when are we getting our mithai?


I think we would eat that when first helicopter would be started building in Kamra. By the way it's best time that we may also start production of one transport helicopter in Kamra.

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## PakShaheen79

I will believe only when I will see first one in Pakistan Army Aviation.

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> *Pakistan enters contract with Turkey to manufacture war copters*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *NNI*
> 
> inShare
> Pakistan has entered an agreement with Turkey to manufacture Ada class corvettes and T-129 helicopters.
> 
> The agreement was signed by Minister for Defence, Rana Tanvir and his Turkish counterpart.
> 
> The corvettes clock 54 kilometres per hour and support the most advanced GPS system and sensors. They also are equipped to launch anti-surface missile, anti-aircraft missile and torpedoes.
> 
> Assembly line of T-129 is to be established at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra.
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/national/12-Ma...ntract-with-turkey-to-manufacture-war-copters

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## Secret Service

Muhammad Omar said:


>


bro from where you get the Turkish flag.


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## Itsaryan

Yep...saw that news today...hope its true. They should build a whole new plant in Kamra for the T129s


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Note: PAC, TAI, MoDP or SSM have *not* yet confirmed this news.

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## Chak Bamu

Zarvan said:


> *Pakistan enters contract with Turkey to manufacture war copters*
> 
> inShare
> Pakistan has entered an agreement with Turkey to manufacture Ada class corvettes and T-129 helicopters.
> 
> The agreement was signed by Minister for Defence, Rana Tanvir and his Turkish counterpart.
> 
> The corvettes clock 54 kilometres per hour and support the most advanced GPS system and sensors. They also are equipped to launch anti-surface missile, anti-aircraft missile and torpedoes.
> 
> Assembly line of T-129 is to be established at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra.
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/national/12-Ma...ntract-with-turkey-to-manufacture-war-copters



No source. Its likely a message, no more. But if Pakistan does not get a desirable answer, then indeed this route shall be taken.

I shall await official confirmation though. In any case, PAC is way too busy. It would take them a good bit of time to be ready for this.

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## Hassan Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Note: PAC, TAI, MoDP or SSM have *not* yet confirmed this news.


uh oh


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> uh oh


Last official statement (from 1-2 days ago) is that progress is being made on the negotiations. That said, the Turkish Gov't said it is generally open to co-production with Pakistan, so if Pakistan does ink the T129 deal, a final assembly and parts manufacturing plant at PAC is possible. However, no confirmation yet.

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## Muhammad Omar

secretservice said:


> bro from where you get the Turkish flag.



Magic

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## Path-Finder

if it falls through then 7 years of negotiations have gone into this!

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Last official statement (from 1-2 days ago) is that progress is being made on the negotiations. That said, the Turkish Gov't said it is generally open to co-production with Pakistan, so if Pakistan does ink the T129 deal, a final assembly and parts manufacturing plant at PAC is possible. However, no confirmation yet.


if you go back to the defence new article i showed you yesterday it said turkey is closing two huge deals. one for 2.5 billion which is for the saudis and a 1.5 billion for the other country, that has to be pakistan. 1 billion is for the corvette's and the 500 million is going into something else? but what?


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## jermankill

Muhammad Omar said:


> Magic


its not magic anymore


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blue Marlin said:


> if you go back to the defence new article i showed you yesterday it said turkey is closing two huge deals. one for 2.5 billion which is for the saudis and a 1.5 billion for the other country, that has to be pakistan. 1 billion is for the corvette's and the 500 million is going into something else? but what?


Possibly, but FNSS has a partnership with Indonesia's PT Pindad to develop and produce the Kaplan MT for the Indonesian Army. There are also a bunch of MoUs between TAI and Antonov.

I am sure if and when the T-129 deal is inked, TAI and the Turkish Gov't will make sure everyone and their child and child's pet's food's child know about it.

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## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Possibly, but FNSS has a partnership with Indonesia's PT Pindad to develop and produce the Kaplan MT for the Indonesian Army. There are also a bunch of MoUs between TAI and Antonov.
> 
> I am sure if and when the T-129 deal is inked, TAI and the Turkish Gov't will make sure everyone and their child and child's pet's food's child know about it.


i thought pakistan was going for an indigenous design?




fnss pars as a 10x10 is a great design




i want one of those.

as for the turks announcing the news june 30 is a quiet some time a way i believe its after ramadan. 
honesty im sceptical too. as well the chinese will get the contract. not every thing the turks make will be purchased by pakistan


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## Muhammad Omar

jermankill said:


> View attachment 396384
> 
> 
> 
> its not magic anymore



COPY PASTING ruining magics


----------



## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/862670118123225089


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## jermankill

Muhammad Omar said:


> COPY PASTING ruining magics


no copy paste bro i have Turkish flag before you also not just Turkish flag i have Russian, Iranian n Saudi Arabian


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## Basel

ISLAMABAD (Dunya News) – Pakistan has entered an agreement with Turkey to manufacture Ada class corvettes and T-129 helicopters.

The agreement was signed by Minister for Defence, Rana Tanvir and his Turkish counterpart.

The corvettes clock 54 kilometres per hour and support the most advanced GPS system and sensors. They also are equipped to launch anti-surface missile, anti-aircraft missile and torpedoes.

Assembly line of T-129 is to be established at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra.

http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/387932-Turkey-Pakistan-to-jointly-manufacture-war-copter

@Zarvan @Arsalan @Horus @waz @Penguin @Ulla @Tempest II

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## razgriz19

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Note: PAC, TAI, MoDP or SSM have *not* yet confirmed this news.


Exactly. And since Hazrat posted the news, it will never happen.

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## Zarvan

razgriz19 said:


> Exactly. And since Hazrat posted the news, it will never happen.


From Hazrat you most likely mean me !!!! Don't worry not only this will happen but also the other things I mentioned will happen which include another 4.5th Generation Fighter Jet coming in PAF before we focus on 5th Generation and also the number VLS equipped Frigates I have been talking about. All will happen

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## KediKesenFare3

I stand with Zarvan!

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## razgriz19

Zarvan said:


> From Hazrat you most likely mean me !!!! Don't worry not only this will happen but also the other things I mentioned will happen which include another 4.5th Generation Fighter Jet coming in PAF before we focus on 5th Generation and also the number VLS equipped Frigates I have been talking about. All will happen



I would be happy if we get Type 54A+. Any other vessel doesn't bring in any new capability, especially these Turkish Corvettes.

Actually, TF-100 is the vessel of choice alongside or Type 54A+. Anything else would be a waste of money, we might as well just build more F-22Ps

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## Zarvan

razgriz19 said:


> I would be happy if we get Type 54A+. Any other vessel doesn't bring in any new capability, especially these Turkish Corvettes.
> 
> Actually, TF-100 is the vessel of choice alongside or Type 54A+. Anything else would be a waste of money, we might as well just build more F-22Ps


These are only good enough to take on Indian Submarines but other than that hardly anything we need Frigates and Destroyers which can do the role which Trump recently did with Syrian Air Base


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## khanasifm

Zarvan said:


> These are only good enough to take on Indian Submarines but other than that hardly anything we need Frigates and Destroyers which can do the role which Trump recently did with Syrian Air Base



Yeh Pak becoming next super power so need to mimic USA  

We need this and need that only one thing is needed 

1 pay taxes 
2 stop voting for crooks 
3 put crooks behind bars 

that's it 

With due respect

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## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


> I think we would eat that when first helicopter would be started building in Kamra. By the way it's best time that we may also start production of one transport helicopter in Kamra.


So roughly when that first going to roll out approx 2-3 years ?
Thx



Zarvan said:


> From Hazrat you most likely mean me !!!! Don't worry not only this will happen but also the other things I mentioned will happen which include another 4.5th Generation Fighter Jet coming in PAF before we focus on 5th Generation and also the number VLS equipped Frigates I have been talking about. All will happen


 Bro in one post you seems to be unrealistic and saying about rousting comparing Pakistan with India as we can not compete them on one on one basis 
And in another post you are so much hopeful why is that just be realistic if you don't mind 
Writing this whatever we get or not we can not compete on the basis of quantity
Beside that please bear in mind china never invest money anywhere in the world where they 
Are not finding it to be suitable to invest so I'm not saying don't worry but hopefully we won't 
Get roasted so easily lots of on stake I hope you understand by lots of 
Thx


----------



## Zarvan

Readerdefence said:


> So roughly when that first going to roll out approx 2-3 years ?
> Thx
> 
> 
> Bro in one post you seems to be unrealistic and saying about rousting comparing Pakistan with India as we can not compete them on one on one basis
> And in another post you are so much hopeful why is that just be realistic if you don't mind
> Writing this whatever we get or not we can not compete on the basis of quantity
> Beside that please bear in mind china never invest money anywhere in the world where they
> Are not finding it to be suitable to invest so I'm not saying don't worry but hopefully we won't
> Get roasted so easily lots of on stake I hope you understand by lots of
> Thx


Sir the Navy size I am suggesting is not competing with India but that is the minimum size which is needed to successfully defend our selves against there Naval attack. If you can't have that size than better surrender to India there is no point of wasting time on 8 Good for Nothing Frigates and Corvettes


----------



## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


> Sir the Navy size I am suggesting is not competing with India but that is the minimum size which is needed to successfully defend our selves against there Naval attack. If you can't have that size than better surrender to India there is no point of wasting time on 8 Good for Nothing Frigates and Corvettes


Sir thx for your patience and kind reply against my post even if I agrees to your minimum thing
You can yourself understand the financial situation of getting 8 alas you asking for 24 so please
Hold your horses gradually we will increase but offcourse not in like 24 and then what will happen 
With the other forces it's like you hide from behind and opening from front
Thx


----------



## Zarvan

ziaulislam said:


> give me your source hazrat sahab???
> i even went to the trouble to name all the ships
> 
> you are not secretly building ships for them?
> 
> i do agree that they will equip nearly all ships with state of the art barak missles


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_the_Indian_Navy

Here are few numbers and they are planning to increase further


----------



## Path-Finder

ziaulislam said:


> give me your source hazrat sahab???
> i even went to the trouble to name all the ships
> 
> you are not secretly building ships for them?
> 
> i do agree that they will equip nearly all ships with state of the art barak missles


our Hazrat is right india is building it navy fast pace because once again the seas are becoming the battleground to control the world. Pakistan really needs to get its act together.

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## Zarvan

ziaulislam said:


> *i counted those and they matched what i wrote, you might have more numbers.?
> PS:
> i didnt count sub 1000 tone ships*


They have these in pipeline and more will be inducted tenders for new Frigates and Corvettes being issued


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## MadDog

Zarvan said:


> From Hazrat you most likely mean me !!!! Don't worry not only this will happen but also the other things I mentioned will happen which include another 4.5th Generation Fighter Jet coming in PAF before we focus on 5th Generation and also the number VLS equipped Frigates I have been talking about. All will happen


Are we going for SU-35 or Eurofighter ?


----------



## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> They have these in pipeline and more will be inducted tenders for new Frigates and Corvettes being issued



i dont want to ruin this thread, but FYI, all these ships are in in tender or pre tender have been listed above.

unless out of the blue Indian navy purchase of the shelf(which is not possible as all Indian tenders have offshot clause of local investment), their docks are already filled up and the very reason for delays. ship building is not a joke

unless they seriously ramp up their production via increasing commercial ship building and new docks nothing is going to happen, if they do its still not going to happen before 2030

look at the Chinese they were serious in late 1990s after usa confrontation and just after 15-25 years got to the capacity of fast ship building 

most will depend how India economy goes.. next few years are important


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## cmpk

it's all a wishful thinking, under current circumstances, Pakistan can't really modrenize it's armed forces, & we've been in this situation since decades now, unfortunately.

As long as we keep on taking loans, and our economy is in shambles, nothing big will happen - just few batches of defense goodies is all we can expect/get.

Turkey & China, this is the only feasible route we have since we will never walk on our own.


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## KediKesenFare3

cmpk said:


> it's all a wishful thinking, under current circumstances, Pakistan can't really modrenize it's armed forces, & we've been in this situation since decades now, unfortunately.
> 
> As long as we keep on taking loans, and our economy is in shambles, nothing big will happen - just few batches of defense goodies is all we can expect/get.
> 
> Turkey & China, this is the only feasible route we have since we will never walk on our own.


Give us your nukes and take in return everything your hearts desire out of our military depots. 

We should not underestimate the capabilities of Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

MadDog said:


> Are we going for SU-35 or Eurofighter ?


PAF is interested in EF but Nawaz is putting pressure that PAF goes for Russian.


----------



## blinder

I thought this was a T-129 army helicopter thread?

Since that is essentially an AW129 Mangusta, a small but combat-proven helicopter, getting a lot of those would by no means be a bad choice.


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## kayaer

*T129 ATAK Cockpit and Avionics*


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> PAF is interested in EF but Nawaz is putting pressure that PAF goes for Russian.



Hazrat where did you pull this out from?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat where did you pull this out from?


I have strong sources in PAF. Last year PAF chief visit to Italy was for same reason and so are several meetings of PAF chief with Nawaz in last two to three months. Close to 10 meetings have taken place and if you remember Dr Shahid Masood also told a year back that Nawaz family is try to get weapons deals done with Russia and will get heavy commissions


----------



## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> I have strong sources in PAF. Last year PAF chief visit to Italy was for same reason and so are several meetings of PAF chief with Nawaz in last two to three months. Close to 10 meetings have taken place and if you remember Dr Shahid Masood also told a year back that Nawaz family is try to get weapons deals done with Russia and will get heavy commissions



That is it you and sources! when did Dr Shahid Masood talk about weapons? secondly noora ONLY cares about commission in steel, concrete and land. what interest does he have in weapons! Hazrat give something better than I have a private spy agency!!


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## ali_raza

Path-Finder said:


> That is it you and sources! when did Dr Shahid Masood talk about weapons? secondly noora ONLY cares about commission in steel, concrete and land. what interest does he have in weapons! Hazrat give something better than I have a private spy agency!!


he is right dr shahid once said that hussain nawaz from london is trying to bag big commissions from russia and they were well aware about canceling of f16 deal


----------



## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> That is it you and sources! when did Dr Shahid Masood talk about weapons? secondly noora ONLY cares about commission in steel, concrete and land. what interest does he have in weapons! Hazrat give something better than I have a private spy agency!!


Yes Dr Shahid Masood said that Nawaz family is trying to get deals for weapons with Russia lots of them and through them make lot of money. But it seem PAF gave them a slip and is trying to get EF. They already have few billion dollars and one 1.5 more Nawaz is delaying that. Also there are massive activity going on in Kamra first people thought it was for Stealth Fighter but ever stealth fighter is at least 15 years away but now things are getting clear and Pakistan most likely will also go for J-10 C. The recent news of China allowing Pakistan production of Ballistic and Cruise Missiles along with Ai Defence and Fighter Jets and other stuff is true. Saudis are also ready to help. So soon Pakistan will decide for one Fighter Jet and one major Air Defence system and J-10 C is not in this that is separate.



Path-Finder said:


> That is it you and sources! when did Dr Shahid Masood talk about weapons? secondly noora ONLY cares about commission in steel, concrete and land. what interest does he have in weapons! Hazrat give something better than I have a private spy agency!!


And I don't have spy agency but people who are close to PAF guys know these things in fact Alan Warnes was stopped from visiting Quetta not because of security reasons or that foreign journalists are not allowed but there was a something there which PAF didn't wanted to reveal yet

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## Path-Finder

ali_raza said:


> he is right dr shahid once said that hussain nawaz from london is trying to bag big commissions from russia and they were well aware about canceling of f16 deal





Zarvan said:


> Yes Dr Shahid Masood said that Nawaz family is trying to get deals for weapons with Russia lots of them and through them make lot of money. But it seem PAF gave them a slip and is trying to get EF. They already have few billion dollars and one 1.5 more Nawaz is delaying that. Also there are massive activity going on in Kamra first people thought it was for Stealth Fighter but ever stealth fighter is at least 15 years away but now things are getting clear and Pakistan most likely will also go for J-10 C. The recent news of China allowing Pakistan production of Ballistic and Cruise Missiles along with Ai Defence and Fighter Jets and other stuff is true. Saudis are also ready to help. So soon Pakistan will decide for one Fighter Jet and one major Air Defence system and J-10 C is not in this that is separate.
> 
> 
> And I don't have spy agency but people who are close to PAF guys know these things in fact Alan Warnes was stopped from visiting Quetta not because of security reasons or that foreign journalists are not allowed but there was a something there which PAF didn't wanted to reveal yet


can you point me to that show in which he mentioned this!


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> can you point me to that show in which he mentioned this!


The show is year old not so can't remember exact day but only a day or two after that show what Dr Shahid Masood said was discussed here on forum also


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## MystryMan

Path-Finder said:


> That is it you and sources! when did Dr Shahid Masood talk about weapons? secondly noora ONLY cares about commission in steel, concrete and land. what interest does he have in weapons! Hazrat give something better than I have a private spy agency!!


He is right. I also remember listening this in Dr Shahid show and he mentioned commission and kickbacks are involved for NS family.

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## Path-Finder

MystryMan said:


> He is right. I also remember listening this in Dr Shahid show and he mentioned commission and kickbacks are involved for NS family.


can you point me to that show?


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## Readerdefence

Zarvan said:


> PAF is interested in EF but Nawaz is putting pressure that PAF goes for Russian.


Any link sir

Oh my learned memebers on this thread if all says NS is involved in commissions from Russia on arms
It's highly impossible as he is not the signing person for purchase I mean in terms of selecting
The weapons
Alas there is one more thing if shahid mason can proof and that is Russian are building a oil
Pipe line from Karachi to upward country so his next comment of shahid mason will be on this
Very soon beside even if they select su35 which is highly impossible the guarantor will be china for the purchase and after sales bla bla
Thx


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## Advocate Pakistan

Besides, NS is trying to appease the forces before the upcoming elections. We might see increase in defence procurement budget and even increase in salaries.


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## MadDog

Zarvan said:


> Yes Dr Shahid Masood said that Nawaz family is trying to get deals for weapons with Russia lots of them and through them make lot of money. But it seem PAF gave them a slip and is trying to get EF. They already have few billion dollars and one 1.5 more Nawaz is delaying that. Also there are massive activity going on in Kamra first people thought it was for Stealth Fighter but ever stealth fighter is at least 15 years away but now things are getting clear and Pakistan most likely will also go for J-10 C. The recent news of China allowing Pakistan production of Ballistic and Cruise Missiles along with Ai Defence and Fighter Jets and other stuff is true. Saudis are also ready to help. So soon Pakistan will decide for one Fighter Jet and one major Air Defence system and J-10 C is not in this that is separate.
> 
> 
> And I don't have spy agency but people who are close to PAF guys know these things in fact Alan Warnes was stopped from visiting Quetta not because of security reasons or that foreign journalists are not allowed but there was a something there which PAF didn't wanted to reveal yet



I agree with Zarvan about Alan Warnes not being allowed to visit Quetta. 
Here is his tweet regarding this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859003776874590210
Btw, what could be in Smungli airbase, J-10C ?

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## Reddawn

MadDog said:


> I agree with Zarvan about Alan Warnes not being allowed to visit Quetta.
> Here is his tweet regarding this.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859003776874590210
> Btw, what could be in Smungli airbase, J-10C ?




Wow... you actually believe Zarvan  

Alan Warnes was prevented from going to Quetta because of the security situation! There is no J10C or EF2000 in Pakistan at all!!! 

Zarvan your posts do provide a degree of entertainment but for God's sake stop with all the BS.

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## Path-Finder

MadDog said:


> I agree with Zarvan about Alan Warnes not being allowed to visit Quetta.
> Here is his tweet regarding this.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/859003776874590210
> Btw, what could be in Smungli airbase, J-10C ?


Come on man. If and a real big IF there was a J10 there. Would they keep it near Afghan border?


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## Zarvan

Reddawn said:


> Wow... you actually believe Zarvan
> 
> Alan Warnes was prevented from going to Quetta because of the security situation! There is no J10C or EF2000 in Pakistan at all!!!
> 
> Zarvan your posts do provide a degree of entertainment but for God's sake stop with all the BS.


No security situation was not the issue we can protect one man for GOD sake


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## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> I have strong sources in PAF. Last year PAF chief visit to Italy was for same reason and so are several meetings of PAF chief with Nawaz in last two to three months. Close to 10 meetings have taken place and if you remember Dr Shahid Masood also told a year back that Nawaz family is try to get weapons deals done with Russia and will get heavy commissions


Feasible, especially if its a mix of old/used Italian trench 1 and new trench 3s. 
They would need at least 3-4B$ for meaningful number.


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## Awan68

Path-Finder said:


> Come on man. If and a real big IF there was a J10 there. Would they keep it near Afghan border?


One word gawadar.....

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Come on man. If and a real big IF there was a J10 there. Would they keep it near Afghan border?


I never said it was J-10 secondly Afghan Border is away and it was only one plane which was here for mainly some testing and our Pilots and Engineers checking it out. When J-10 C will come it would be announced and also the other Plane. They were not here to be part of AF for now they were here just on a visit so our Pilots and Engineers can have a look.



ziaulislam said:


> Feasible, especially if its a mix of old/used Italian trench 1 and new trench 3s.
> They would need at least 3-4B$ for meaningful number.


If EF would come it would be mainly Italy and UK and Spain. Mix of old and new ones.


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## ziaulislam

Zarvan said:


> If EF would come it would be mainly Italy and UK and Spain. Mix of old and new ones.


doubt it, priority is as usually given to army projects, and there a lot of army projects that are to be completed first, like new gen tanks, artillery, guns, attack helos etc

we need to be 2 steps ahead of indain army and thats what we are doing forget about airforce and airdefence


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## Zarvan

ziaulislam said:


> doubt it, priority is as usually given to army projects, and there a lot of army projects that are to be completed first, like new gen tanks, artillery, guns, attack helos etc
> 
> we need to be 2 steps ahead of indain army and thats what we are doing forget about airforce and airdefence


No focus on Air Force and Navy is increasing


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## Readerdefence

Reddawn said:


> Wow... you actually believe Zarvan
> 
> Alan Warnes was prevented from going to Quetta because of the security situation! There is no J10C or EF2000 in Pakistan at all!!!
> 
> Zarvan your posts do provide a degree of entertainment but for God's sake stop with all the BS.


Well Americans were there in musharraf era and it was way way bad then now


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## WarFariX

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/870358168710369281 Awesome news.

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## Zarvan

WarFariX said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/870358168710369281 Awesome news.


So for first time our media was right when it comes to defense news

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## WarFariX

Zarvan said:


> So for first time our media was right when it comes to defense news


Lately i have been away from these defense news due to studies. Could you update me whether we are acquiring license to produce at home or just ToT. And if we are acquiring license , then are we setting up our own production plant for our needs as well as possible exports?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

To be clear, Alan Warnes said that _*if *_Pakistan buys T129s, it would get to manufacture some of the parts at PAC. It seems to be an offset arrangement to reduce the cost of the acquisition (by having Turkey import some parts from PAC).

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## Secret Service

why we are doubtful about this helicopter ? what are the reasons of not buying or delay.


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## razgriz19

secretservice said:


> why we are doubtful about this helicopter ? what are the reasons of not buying or delay.


Why would PA need that when they're already getting AH-1Z. It doesn't bring anything new to the table. And they're both vulnerable to sanctions.

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## Ahmet Pasha

It seems more viable than getting something from america. US has a history of denying us weapons it is not just 8 F-16s.


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## Mughal-Prince

razgriz19 said:


> Why would PA need that when they're already getting AH-1Z. It doesn't bring anything new to the table. And they're both vulnerable to sanctions.


AH-1Z we are getting may be sanction prone but T-129's engines may be a hassle for the time until Turks may come up with their own engine and they are gaining fast over it.

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## razgriz19

Mughal-Prince said:


> AH-1Z we are getting may be sanction prone but T-129's engines may be a hassle for the time until Turks may come up with their own engine and they are gaining fast over it.


Do you think we'll be doing engine changes if they come up with a solution? Do you know how expensive that is?
Making an engine is easy, making a reliable and higher TBO engine is extremely difficult and only comes with experience/time which they don't have.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I don't expect an engine change in the T129.

The PAA was apparently impressed with the T129's hot-and-high performance, and I imagine a lot of that came due to the LHTEC engine already installed. Fitting in the nearest Ukrainian engine (MS500V) would pull the T129 down to the A129 v1, which the PAA ignored in the 1990s. Fitting in the Safran Ardiden 3 would require time and cost, and at that point, one might as well as wait for the Turkish TEI turboshaft engine.

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## niaz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> It seems more viable than getting something from america. US has a history of denying us weapons it is not just 8 F-16s.




This post is typical of the prevailing anti- US sentiment among the Pakistanis which IMHO shows that we have very short term memory. In actual fact United States has a long history of supplying Pakistan with weapons. 1965 war that we so fondly celebrate each year wast fought almost entirely with US supplied Sabres, B-57s & Herks of the PAF; US supplied Pattons, Sherman and big guns of the Pak Army & US financed submarine & warships of the PN.
Remember, US had also approved the sale of 8 F-16; however she declined to finance the sale as well.

US employs economic aid, military aid and the sale of military hardware as tool to advance her global policy. It is about time my compatriots understood that there is no such thing as “Free lunch". If you go against US interest, US will cut off the supplies. One can therefore correctly say that US is "Fair weather friend” that's about it.
It may be tough for Pakistan but that is "Realpolitik”. Pray tell me, would you sell Thunders to a hostile Afghan gov’t?

These days India is needed as a counter against the growing Chinese influence in the region also Indian coffers are full of dollars, hence India is free to buy US equipment. Remember at one time Iran was also in similar position and the Shah bought state of the art F-4s as well F-14’s. Should you have billions of readily available dollars allocated to buy defence hardware; if not the US, France or Britain and if all else fails then Russia will be there to sell.

However, the real problem with the US & Western equipment is that most of the European military hardware also has some parts of the US origin, hence is prone to the US sanctions. France is an exception and in my opinion that is one of the factors why India went for Rafael.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be clear, Alan Warnes said that _*if *_Pakistan buys T129s, it would get to manufacture some of the parts at PAC. It seems to be an offset arrangement to reduce the cost of the acquisition (by having Turkey import some parts from PAC).


PAC manufacturing some parts of Anka UAV already may same arrangement.

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## Ahmet Pasha

I am not with US or against US I am with pakistan and I want it to make its own weapons and sell em and make money in the process. Not relying on someone else. But I appreciate your response


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## Windjammer



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## Mughal-Prince

razgriz19 said:


> Do you think we'll be doing engine changes if they come up with a solution? Do you know how expensive that is?
> Making an engine is easy, making a reliable and higher TBO engine is extremely difficult and only comes with experience/time which they don't have.



We do nothing brother .
All I am talking about is an insurance policy or else we keep our F-16s in the air for 9 or above long years with sanctions applied to us. In case of ATAK its much different because we only have concerns for engine rest of the systems are supplied by Turks.

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## Mughal-Prince

Mughal-Prince said:


> We do nothing brother .
> All I am talking about is an insurance policy or else we keep our F-16s in the air for 9 or above long years with sanctions applied to us. In case of ATAK its much different because we only have concerns for engine rest of the systems are supplied by Turks.



And above all which may never be replaced is unmatchable trust as Turks are brothers in arms we can trust them our eyes closed. Even if they are upset with us they will not let us down. Its not friendship its brotherhood.

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## Super Falcon

Good decision I think pakistan should go with tukish tank too 

Turkey is more reliable Muslim country than saudia and use

Hope we get these ATAK in substantial numbers


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## Hamza kakakhel

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I am not with US or against US I am with pakistan and I want it to make its own weapons and sell em and make money in the process. Not relying on someone else. But I appreciate your response


Can you tell...that ......agreement of diesel engine with Ukraine. .....for alkhalid tank.......will they provide these engine technology to Pakistan HIT .....was this part of agreement?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hamza kakakhel said:


> Can you tell...that ......agreement of diesel engine with Ukraine. .....for alkhalid tank.......will they provide these engine technology to Pakistan HIT .....was this part of agreement?


U from Ziarat Kaka sab?


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## cabatli_53

Full speed production !
22th Atak, first full configuration of its version is delivered to Army !

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## TaimiKhan

cabatli_53 said:


> Full speed production !
> 22th Atak, first full configuration of its version is delivered to Army !


Cabatli, whts the armor capability of t-129. Havent yet seen much abt it.

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## cabatli_53

TaimiKhan said:


> Cabatli, whts the armor capability of t-129. Havent yet seen much abt it.




As far as I know, Air frame including engine compartment and rotors provides protection against 12,7mm armour-piercing rounds. Crew cabin has also special armour modules on sides to provide better protection to Atak crew.

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## bananarepublic

so what are we gonna do for our heavy platform requirement T-129 is a light attack helicopter we should`ve gone for Z-10


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## C130

Mughal-Prince said:


> AH-1Z we are getting may be sanction prone but T-129's engines may be a hassle for the time until Turks may come up with their own engine and they are gaining fast over it.


should have went with KA-52. thing is a beast. the Russia avionics/sensors are inferior to the West that's the only negative.


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## mikaal

C130 said:


> should have went with KA-52. thing is a beast. the Russia avionics/sensors are inferior to the West that's the only negative.


the best option is south African 
*Denel Rooivalk*


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## C130

mikaal said:


> the best option is south African
> *Denel Rooivalk*


why is that?? Rooivalk costs as much as an Apache, and is inferior.

a mix of Mi-35M and Ka-52 would be perfect for Pakistan

120 Mi-35M and 40 Ka-52

that would cost what $4 to $5 billion.


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## Trango Towers

C130 said:


> why is that?? Rooivalk costs as much as an Apache, and is inferior.
> 
> a mix of Mi-35M and Ka-52 would be perfect for Pakistan
> 
> 120 Mi-35M and 40 Ka-52
> 
> that would cost what $4 to $5 billion.


let me just get my wallet

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## mikaal

C130 said:


> why is that?? Rooivalk costs as much as an Apache, and is inferior.
> 
> a mix of Mi-35M and Ka-52 would be perfect for Pakistan
> 
> 120 Mi-35M and 40 Ka-52
> 
> that would cost what $4 to $5 billion.


really dude thats your argument does the mi -35 or ka 52 come with tot ....no they dont
does the rooivalk has got the option of fully TOT....yes it has it might be a bit outdated in avionics side but can easily be tailored to your requirement plus if you add Eurocopter EC225 Super Puma which south africa is using and building in collaboration with airbus you get transport and medium attack helicopters .
two in one in one contract and if by chance we find some general loyal to our country who is a bit clever he can easily add the mraps and the new contract for light Armour vehicles all 4 items from south africa 
when it comes to cost it will be a big contract all you have to do is open a mega contract for them with the financial and political problems south africa is we will get a good deal they need money


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## C130

mikaal said:


> really dude thats your argument does the mi -35 or ka 52 come with tot ....no they dont
> does the rooivalk has got the option of fully TOT....yes it has it might be a bit outdated in avionics side but can easily be tailored to your requirement plus if you add Eurocopter EC225 Super Puma which south africa is using and building in collaboration with airbus you get transport and medium attack helicopters .
> two in one in one contract and if by chance we find some general loyal to our country who is a bit clever he can easily add the mraps and the new contract for light Armour vehicles all 4 items from south africa
> when it comes to cost it will be a big contract all you have to do is open a mega contract for them with the financial and political problems south africa is we will get a good deal they need money



what ToT do you expect to get??


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## mikaal

C130 said:


> what ToT do you expect to get??[/QUO
> you need to check what airbus have been doing with the super puma helicopters .the roovialk and super puma use same engines and a lot of similar avionics .
> here is the example what they offered the Brazil and it was back in 2012
> they got TOT OF 50% including the engine manufacturing plant as well And the contract was for all 3 forces and civilian market the contract was for 1.8 billion euros .
> with Pakistan you will be opening even a bigger contract for two helicopters the attack and medium transport helicopters both and for all 3 services plus your civil an and paramilitary forces too.
> south african and airbus are not selling much of these helicopters because Russian and american have nearly occupied the whole attack and medium helicopters requirements for nearly most of the world .so both helicopters need a customer to come in and do a deal with airbus and south Africa



you need to check what airbus have been doing with the super puma helicopters .the roovialk and super puma use same engines and a lot of similar avionics .
here is the example what they offered the Brazil and it was back in 2012 
they got TOT OF 50% including the engine manufacturing plant as well And the contract was for all 3 forces and civilian market the contract was for 1.8 billion euros .
with Pakistan you will be opening even a bigger contract for two helicopters the attack and medium transport helicopters both and for all 3 services plus your civil an and paramilitary forces too.
south african and airbus are not selling much of these helicopters because Russian and american have nearly occupied the whole attack and medium helicopters requirements for nearly most of the world .so both helicopters need a customer to come in and do a deal with airbus and south Africa

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Denel Aeronautics is making ToT (in local MRO, co-production, offsets) a key part of its Rooivalk Mk2 offer, assuming the buyer also helps foot the development cost. Denel will reuse the Rooivalk airframe and engines, albeit with new dynamic parts. 

Most of the added development will go into electronics, sensors and weapons, which are available off-the-shelf from a variety of countries. I also think many of these can be developed relatively cheaply in South Africa if need be. 

The key though is the engine and dynamic parts commonality with the H215M Super Puma, enabling one to maintain a similar logistics and maintenance footprint for attack and transport helicopter.

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## mikaal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Denel Aeronautics is making ToT (in local MRO, co-production, offsets) a key part of its Rooivalk Mk2 offer, assuming the buyer also helps foot the development cost. Denel will reuse the Rooivalk airframe and engines, albeit with new dynamic parts.
> 
> Most of the added development will go into electronics, sensors and weapons, which are available off-the-shelf from a variety of countries. I also think many of these can be developed relatively cheaply in South Africa if need be.
> 
> The key though is the engine and dynamic parts commonality with the H215M Super Puma, enabling one to maintain a similar logistics and maintenance footprint for attack and transport helicopter.


sir the contract Brazil signed with aribus is just way too good. Its once in a life time chance for us to start our own helicopter industry with the help of a European partner .the full details of Brazilian contract are available if you google it on a website called jecgroup i cant post a link here because of being a new member .


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## ghazi52



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## Zarvan

COAS even flew T-129

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## Reichsmarschall

ghazi52 said:


>


are we buying these choppers??
@HAKIKAT @Sinan @cabatli_53 ??

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## ZedZeeshan

Narendra Trump said:


> are we buying these choppers??
> @HAKIKAT @Sinan @cabatli_53 ??


In Sha ALLAH.!

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## -------

32nd T-129 rolling through production line

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## Dai Toruko

I can imagine it.

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## Path-Finder

ghazi52 said:


>



Gen Bajwa is a Giant!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Guys if this news has come true what are the chances of us getting the mpt-76. As the nespapers had reported?? @Path-Finder @Zarvan (the scar waley baba g)


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys if this news has come true what are the chances of us getting the mpt-76. As the nespapers had reported?? @Path-Finder @Zarvan (the scar waley baba g)


MPT-76 has no chance T-129 was always known to us


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Narendra Trump said:


> are we buying these choppers??
> @HAKIKAT @Sinan @cabatli_53 ??


Looks like the Pak Chief is eager to have a hand on them!!! He must have some interesting plans with them!!!! Anyway, exporting them was a part of the plan during inception as explained by the DM of the time...

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## Path-Finder

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Guys if this news has come true what are the chances of us getting the mpt-76. As the nespapers had reported?? @Path-Finder @Zarvan (the scar waley baba g)



SCAR wale baba ji was SCARing for MPT76 until SCAR came onboard. Now who wants to go back to the budhi you divorced?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> SCAR wale baba ji was SCARing for MPT76 until SCAR came onboard. Now who wants to go back to the budhi you divorced?


MPT-76 passed our winter trials but failed in summer ones. How ever the company said it would resolve the issues and what I know is they want Pakistan to re test the Gun and it would not be bad idea to test it again. I have been supporting the idea of Pakistan more than one rifle series for long time.

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## Muhammad Omar

So will we hear the News 

*PAKISTAN TO GET T-129 ATTACK HELICOPTERS FROM TURKEY TO REPLACE IT'S AGEING FLEET OF COBRA'S WITH TOT AND PRODUCTION LINE IN PAKISTAN*

 Just Dreaming after Sehri P

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## Ahmet Pasha

Muhammad Omar said:


> So will we hear the News
> 
> *PAKISTAN TO GET T-129 ATTACK HELICOPTERS FROM TURKEY TO REPLACE IT'S AGEING FLEET OF COBRA'S WITH TOT AND PRODUCTION LINE IN PAKISTAN*
> 
> Just Dreaming after Sehri P



Inshallah

I would be even more elated if we can take the ATAK and turn it into a heavier strike/assault platform. With the help from turks it may very well be achievable

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## Cool_Soldier

I am very much confident that this contract (T-129 with TOT)will be done this year any time-Insha Allah

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Looks like the Ramadan du'at here are coming to fruition.

This is the latest from Alan Warnes. Summary: Pakistan reportedly in talks for 30 T129, a deal could be reached by early-to-mid 2018 (coinciding with the Farnborough Air Show). @Oscar @Horus @cabatli_53 @T-123456 @TheOccupiedKashmir @Penguin 

http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/11-air/1746-pakatak.html

*PAKISTAN ON VERGE OF ORDERING TAI T129 ATAK*

A high-level delegation from the Pakistan Army, led by the Army Chief of Staff, was expected to visit Ankara during Paris Air Show 2017. It led to the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) leadership, including* TAI Chairman and CEO, Temel Kotil*, returning home. TAI’s new boss visited Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra in late May to see the facilities there, and was suitably impressed. He told MONS in Paris: “_I was very impressed with their capabilities and I’m sure we can do much work together in the future_.”

Pakistan’s interest in TAI’s T129 ATAK Tactical Reconnaissance and Attack Helicopter continues to grow following the completion of the technical evaluation. As part of that procedure, TAI’s T129, P6, which is in the static display at the airshow spent 10 days undergoing hot and high evaluation trials in Pakistan during late May 2015. It saw the ATAK operating in temperatures of 52° C and was flown by a Pakistani Army Aviation pilot alongside a TAI test pilot. During the trials in the Hindu Kush in the Himalaya mountains, the T129 ATAK flew over 14,000ft. A source said, “_the helicopter is the best fit for all the Pakistan Army’s requirements_.”

Contract discussions are believed to be now underway for 30 T129s, with a deal expected to be announced in late 2017 or early 2018. If it happens you can expect it to be big news at next year’s Farnborough International Air Show, the source continued, adding, “_we could make deliveries in a very short time period_.”

The Pakistan Army currently flies a mix of AH-1F/S COBRAs based at Multan, that forward deploy to several forward operating bases/forward operating locations. They have been heavily involved in Pakistan’s war with militants in the Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA) and have been known to fly up to 15,000 feet.

That’s well above their maximum height restrictions, but due to the threat of SAMs in the high mountainous area, it’s a must. One Army pilot MONS spoke to two years ago said the helicopter ‘creaks and makes strange noises’ at that height, but what option do we have?’

Soon they may several options, because in addition to the T129 ATAK, the Pakistan Army has also ordered 12 Bell AH-1Z VIPERs. Bell Helicopter revealed at Paris Air Show that the first three helicopters ordered in 2015 under a FMS deal are expected to be delivered by the end of the year. A Bell spokesman at Paris told the author that the first is due to fly imminently, and training of Pakistan Army crews and maintenance personnel is underway.

They will join four Mi-35Ps believed to be on order and three Chinese built Z-10s which have been based at Multan since 2015, although there has been strong speculation that the latter are not currently flying. The fear of sanctions, means that Pakistan often spreads its bet by acquiring platforms from different nations, however much of a logistical headache that maybe!

Alan Warnes

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## Cool_Soldier

Good to know.
I hope contract will be expended for T-129.
It would be more than 30 and with TOT.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Altay and TFX left hope we get em soon


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## Muhammad Omar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Looks like the Ramadan du'at here are coming to fruition.
> 
> This is the latest from Alan Warnes. Summary: Pakistan reportedly in talks for 30 T129, a deal could be reached by early-to-mid 2018 (coinciding with the Farnborough Air Show). @Oscar @Horus @cabatli_53 @T-123456 @TheOccupiedKashmir @Penguin
> 
> http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/11-air/1746-pakatak.html
> 
> *PAKISTAN ON VERGE OF ORDERING TAI T129 ATAK*
> 
> A high-level delegation from the Pakistan Army, led by the Army Chief of Staff, was expected to visit Ankara during Paris Air Show 2017. It led to the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) leadership, including* TAI Chairman and CEO, Temel Kotil*, returning home. TAI’s new boss visited Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra in late May to see the facilities there, and was suitably impressed. He told MONS in Paris: “_I was very impressed with their capabilities and I’m sure we can do much work together in the future_.”
> 
> Pakistan’s interest in TAI’s T129 ATAK Tactical Reconnaissance and Attack Helicopter continues to grow following the completion of the technical evaluation. As part of that procedure, TAI’s T129, P6, which is in the static display at the airshow spent 10 days undergoing hot and high evaluation trials in Pakistan during late May 2015. It saw the ATAK operating in temperatures of 52° C and was flown by a Pakistani Army Aviation pilot alongside a TAI test pilot. During the trials in the Hindu Kush in the Himalaya mountains, the T129 ATAK flew over 14,000ft. A source said, “_the helicopter is the best fit for all the Pakistan Army’s requirements_.”
> 
> Contract discussions are believed to be now underway for 30 T129s, with a deal expected to be announced in late 2017 or early 2018. If it happens you can expect it to be big news at next year’s Farnborough International Air Show, the source continued, adding, “_we could make deliveries in a very short time period_.”
> 
> The Pakistan Army currently flies a mix of AH-1F/S COBRAs based at Multan, that forward deploy to several forward operating bases/forward operating locations. They have been heavily involved in Pakistan’s war with militants in the Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA) and have been known to fly up to 15,000 feet.
> 
> That’s well above their maximum height restrictions, but due to the threat of SAMs in the high mountainous area, it’s a must. One Army pilot MONS spoke to two years ago said the helicopter ‘creaks and makes strange noises’ at that height, but what option do we have?’
> 
> Soon they may several options, because in addition to the T129 ATAK, the Pakistan Army has also ordered 12 Bell AH-1Z VIPERs. Bell Helicopter revealed at Paris Air Show that the first three helicopters ordered in 2015 under a FMS deal are expected to be delivered by the end of the year. A Bell spokesman at Paris told the author that the first is due to fly imminently, and training of Pakistan Army crews and maintenance personnel is underway.
> 
> They will join four Mi-35Ps believed to be on order and three Chinese built Z-10s which have been based at Multan since 2015, although there has been strong speculation that the latter are not currently flying. The fear of sanctions, means that Pakistan often spreads its bet by acquiring platforms from different nations, however much of a logistical headache that maybe!
> 
> Alan Warnes



in 2018


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## ZedZeeshan

Cool_Soldier said:


> Good to know.
> I hope contract will be expended for T-129.
> It would be more than 30 and with TOT.


30 probably be the initial order..


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## Silahtar

*Paris Air Show: TAI bullish about future prospects*







Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is ambitious about expanding its current portfolio of rotorcraft for the domestic and international market.

Currently manufacturers of the T129 Atak and the T625 multirole helicopter, TAI is looking towards next year and considering the introduction of new platforms.

Metİn Olcay, business development of the helicopter group at TAI, explained to Shephard that although plans were still in the early stages, the company was looking at growing its range of existing helicopters.

‘We want to complete our range of helicopters, we want more than two [aircraft]. In 2018 we will be starting on other helicopter designs, smaller or larger [than the existing rotorcraft] - it will be customer dependent,’ Olcay said.

No further details were available at this stage. However, the T625, which was launched in 2013, has now completed its CDR phase.

Olcay confirmed that the first flight of the T625 was on schedule for 2018, with the first prototype currently being manufactured and will soon undergo ground tests. EASA certification is anticipated to be in 2020.

‘We expect good market support domestically and internationally for the aircraft. We have [around] 350 engineers working on the helicopter design.’

The company’s assembly line is in Ankara, Turkey, which is also producing the T129 along with the assembly of Black Hawks for the Turkish MoD.

On the military side, the T129’s weapon integration has had positive feedback from the Turkish Armed Forces.
According to Olcay the armed forces have been actively using the weapons in the field and are utilising them more than initially expected.

‘Recently, we surpassed 10,000 flight hours in total. In this short timeframe, this is double [the number of] hours that we expected. They are being heavily used.’

As of June 2017, 22 helicopters out of 59 have been delivered and Olcay is optimistic that additional orders will continue from the Turkish government.

At the moment, one aircraft is being delivered per month thus orders will continue into 2020. *Olcay also explained that Pakistan is interested in the attack helicopter and while numbers were still not agreed on, details were soon to be announced.*

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/paris-air-show-tai-bullish-about-future-prospects/

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## -SINAN-



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## singlefighter

niaz said:


> This post is typical of the prevailing anti- US sentiment among the Pakistanis which IMHO shows that we have very short term memory. In actual fact United States has a long history of supplying Pakistan with weapons. 1965 war that we so fondly celebrate each year wast fought almost entirely with US supplied Sabres, B-57s & Herks of the PAF; US supplied Pattons, Sherman and big guns of the Pak Army & US financed submarine & warships of the PN.
> Remember, US had also approved the sale of 8 F-16; however she declined to finance the sale as well.
> 
> US employs economic aid, military aid and the sale of military hardware as tool to advance her global policy. It is about time my compatriots understood that there is no such thing as “Free lunch". If you go against US interest, US will cut off the supplies. One can therefore correctly say that US is "Fair weather friend” that's about it.
> It may be tough for Pakistan but that is "Realpolitik”. Pray tell me, would you sell Thunders to a hostile Afghan gov’t?
> 
> These days India is needed as a counter against the growing Chinese influence in the region also Indian coffers are full of dollars, hence India is free to buy US equipment. Remember at one time Iran was also in similar position and the Shah bought state of the art F-4s as well F-14’s. Should you have billions of readily available dollars allocated to buy defence hardware; if not the US, France or Britain and if all else fails then Russia will be there to sell.
> 
> However, the real problem with the US & Western equipment is that most of the European military hardware also has some parts of the US origin, hence is prone to the US sanctions. France is an exception and in my opinion that is one of the factors why India went for Rafael.


Bro you are missing some thing,when war broke out in 1965 US put embargo.and after the war china came forward and rescue Pak armed forces with its supplied weapons and aircrafts.in 1971 US put embargo even before the war started so they did in 1990 even they halt F16 which was fully paid.same thing now can be repeated any time because of joker trump

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## mikaal hassan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Looks like the Ramadan du'at here are coming to fruition.
> 
> This is the latest from Alan Warnes. Summary: Pakistan reportedly in talks for 30 T129, a deal could be reached by early-to-mid 2018 (coinciding with the Farnborough Air Show). @Oscar @Horus @cabatli_53 @T-123456 @TheOccupiedKashmir @Penguin
> 
> http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/11-air/1746-pakatak.html
> 
> *PAKISTAN ON VERGE OF ORDERING TAI T129 ATAK*
> 
> A high-level delegation from the Pakistan Army, led by the Army Chief of Staff, was expected to visit Ankara during Paris Air Show 2017. It led to the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) leadership, including* TAI Chairman and CEO, Temel Kotil*, returning home. TAI’s new boss visited Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra in late May to see the facilities there, and was suitably impressed. He told MONS in Paris: “_I was very impressed with their capabilities and I’m sure we can do much work together in the future_.”
> 
> Pakistan’s interest in TAI’s T129 ATAK Tactical Reconnaissance and Attack Helicopter continues to grow following the completion of the technical evaluation. As part of that procedure, TAI’s T129, P6, which is in the static display at the airshow spent 10 days undergoing hot and high evaluation trials in Pakistan during late May 2015. It saw the ATAK operating in temperatures of 52° C and was flown by a Pakistani Army Aviation pilot alongside a TAI test pilot. During the trials in the Hindu Kush in the Himalaya mountains, the T129 ATAK flew over 14,000ft. A source said, “_the helicopter is the best fit for all the Pakistan Army’s requirements_.”
> 
> Contract discussions are believed to be now underway for 30 T129s, with a deal expected to be announced in late 2017 or early 2018. If it happens you can expect it to be big news at next year’s Farnborough International Air Show, the source continued, adding, “_we could make deliveries in a very short time period_.”
> 
> The Pakistan Army currently flies a mix of AH-1F/S COBRAs based at Multan, that forward deploy to several forward operating bases/forward operating locations. They have been heavily involved in Pakistan’s war with militants in the Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA) and have been known to fly up to 15,000 feet.
> 
> That’s well above their maximum height restrictions, but due to the threat of SAMs in the high mountainous area, it’s a must. One Army pilot MONS spoke to two years ago said the helicopter ‘creaks and makes strange noises’ at that height, but what option do we have?’
> 
> Soon they may several options, because in addition to the T129 ATAK, the Pakistan Army has also ordered 12 Bell AH-1Z VIPERs. Bell Helicopter revealed at Paris Air Show that the first three helicopters ordered in 2015 under a FMS deal are expected to be delivered by the end of the year. A Bell spokesman at Paris told the author that the first is due to fly imminently, and training of Pakistan Army crews and maintenance personnel is underway.
> 
> They will join four Mi-35Ps believed to be on order and three Chinese built Z-10s which have been based at Multan since 2015, although there has been strong speculation that the latter are not currently flying. The fear of sanctions, means that Pakistan often spreads its bet by acquiring platforms from different nations, however much of a logistical headache that maybe!
> 
> Alan Warnes


Sir will this deal be good enough without ToT ? I doubt it our requirement will end at 30 helicopters.....it will be again a.big chance missed from us to start our own helicopter industry


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## Ahmet Pasha

I think PAA together with PAC will try to get some sort of TOT or workshare/partnership to bring the cost down. I think turks will help us with TOT or workshare because they are getting more scale to distribute their development costs.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mikaal hassan said:


> Sir will this deal be good enough without ToT ? I doubt it our requirement will end at 30 helicopters.....it will be again a.big chance missed from us to start our own helicopter industry


Earlier reports from Aviation Week and Alan Warnes state that Pakistan will acquire some ToT - i.e. parts manufacturing and assembly. PAC will basically partner with TAI.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Earlier reports from Aviation Week and Alan Warnes state that Pakistan will acquire some ToT - i.e. parts manufacturing and assembly. PAC will basically partner with TAI.


Thats the way it should be. It is the way forward

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## mikaal hassan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I think PAA together with PAC will try to get some sort of TOT or workshare/partnership to bring the cost down. I think turks will help us with TOT or workshare because they are getting more scale to distribute their development costs.


Without minimum 50 % ToT the deal is not sweet enough at all we have to get our young generation to get high level skilled jobs no just nut and bold fixers even a blind person can do that with directions .... same needs to be done with anything we import the deal needs to be like 50% ToT in 1 st 3 years or max 4 years with further help in r&d ....by the end of 5 years 75% TOT should be transferred then with any future updates

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## Ahmet Pasha

I like the way u think brother but they r just not going to hand over everything in tot. To build our skill set we need to invest in joint ventures just like joint fighter 17 thunder and involve local industry to give rise to our own industry base. Cheers


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## cabatli_53

If Atak deal is finalized, I think The following capabilities will be most beneficial to Pakistani Land Forces.

1- High-Hot performance of T-129
2- AVCI HMDU (standart on all variants)
3- B2 variant comes with advanced electronic warfare control computers/sensors against almost all type of missile threats.
4- Cost-Effective Cirit missiles ready to use for almost all COIN missions against light armored threats and enemy soldiers/militants/terrorists !

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt148/cabatli53/giphy 1.gif

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## mikaal hassan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I like the way u think brother but they r just not going to hand over everything in tot. To build our skill set we need to invest in joint ventures just like joint fighter 17 thunder and involve local industry to give rise to our own industry base. Cheers


 sir if we dont ask we dont get anything....we have to at least try not just give them our money get the helicopter after few years we get in to same senario like we had with usa where we cant get spares or upgrades on time ...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Muhammad Omar said:


> in 2018


Better late than never.... The fruit of patience is sweet... etc....


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## Cool_Soldier

PAA must go for with TOT contract.

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## Arsalan

Cool_Soldier said:


> PAA must go for with TOT contract.


 With 30-40 helicopters required (initially, the final order also going to 60-70 machines AT MAX?) a full ToT is not required. What we need is a decent maintenance/over-haul and up-gradation facility along with some parts manufacturing for TAI as well (to reduce the cost of our purchase). This is the most likely route we will be taking anyway.

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## Cool_Soldier

Well, Ministry of defence production said a few weeks back that All future big contract will be done with TOT.

It will boost our capability in specific weapon building in house.

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## Arsalan

Cool_Soldier said:


> Well, Ministry of defence production said a few weeks back that All future big contract will be done with TOT.
> 
> It will boost our capability in specific weapon building in house.


BIG CONTRACTS!!



Arsalan said:


> *With 30-40 helicopters required* (initially, the final order also going to *60-70 machines AT MAX?*) a full ToT is not required. What we need is a decent maintenance/over-haul and up-gradation facility along with some parts manufacturing for TAI as well (to reduce the cost of our purchase). This is the most likely route we will be taking anyway.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Going for ToT doesn't mean getting full ToT. OEMs will usually prefer co-production arrangements.

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## Cool_Soldier

Any involvement in production line will be appreciated as it will lead us towards independency.

-Assembly line
-maintenance line
-overhauling
-Parts manufacturing

everything is welcome

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## Muhammad Omar

HAKIKAT said:


> Better late than never.... The fruit of patience is sweet... etc....



If they gonna sign the deal in 2018 then Helicopters will come in 2020


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## Ahmet Pasha

Muhammad Omar said:


> If they gonna sign the deal in 2018 then Helicopters will come in 2020



Bro they may even start getting delivered by 2019

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bro they may even start getting delivered by 2019


few will come from shelf right away .its a good Heli worth to have it

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## wild peace

mikaal hassan said:


> sir if we dont ask we dont get anything....we have to at least try not just give them our money get the helicopter after few years we get in to same senario like we had with usa where we cant get spares or upgrades on time ...





Ahmet Pasha said:


> I think PAA together with PAC will try to get some sort of TOT or workshare/partnership to bring the cost down. I think turks will help us with TOT or workshare because they are getting more scale to distribute their development costs.


Yes you are absolabsolutely write . WE must learn from past mistakes and must develops our military industry .

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## Ahmet Pasha

wild peace said:


> Yes you are absolabsolutely write . WE must learn from past mistakes and must develops our military industry .



Embarking on such an endeavor will not only benefit defence industry but it will have a trickle down effect in every aspect of our industry.

Pakistan has to realise that defence exports can be a very lucrative business especially if Pakistan continues to develop state of the art but cost effective defence solutions.

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## -------

23rd T-129 enters service.

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## hassamun

*PAKISTAN TO BEGIN NEGOTIATIONS FOR T129 ATTACK HELICOPTERS FROM TURKEY*

Pakistan will reportedly commence formal negotiations for the T129 ATAK attack helicopter from Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).

According to aviation journalist Alan Warnes (via Monch Verlagsgesellschaft mbH), both sides are aiming to announce a deal, which could involve 30 aircraft, by the end of 2017 or early 2018. Turkish officials told Shephard Media that Pakistan was interested in the T129, but numbers have not yet been agreed upon.

This follows a year of active interest from Pakistan, beginning with trials in June 2016, when the Pakistan Army put the T129 ATAK (i.e. P6) through rigorous hot-and-high performance tests.

The P6 was flown at Pano Aqil when it was 50° Celsius. It was also flown at high-altitude at 14,000 feet in the Hindu Kush in the Himalayas. Endurance tests included a 480 km non-stop from Quetta to Multan.

In February, TAI’s General Manager Dr. Temel Kotil stated in a speech to the İstanbul Düşünce Vakfı (i.e. Istanbul Though Foundation) that TAI “will sell [T-129s] to Pakistan in the coming months.” Dr. Kotil also confirmed that Turkey acquired licenses to export the T129’s CTS800 turboshaft engine.

At IDEF 2017 in May, TAI and PAC had signed a memorandum-of-understanding (MoU) committing to expanding cooperation. At the end of May, Dr. Temel Kotil, visited PAC and reiterated TAI’s commitment to enable PAC to manufacture parts for the T129. PAC may also assemble T129 ATAKs.

Last week, the Pakistan Army’s Chief of Army Staff General Qamar Javed Bajwa made an official visit to Turkey, where he met with TAI and inspected TAI’s T129 production site.

Pakistan also has 12 AH-1Z Viper and four Mi-35P Hind attack helicopters on order from Bell Helicopter and Russian Helicopters, respectively. The first three AH-1Z and all four Mi-35P are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan by the end of 2017.

The T129 is an upgraded variant of the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta, which flew in 1983 and entered production that year for the Italian Army. Derived from the A129CBT, the T129 benefits from an uprated engine (i.e. LHTEC CTS800-4A), airframe modifications as well as new tail rotor and drive train.

Turkey selected the T129 in 2007 with manufacturing and third-party export rights. Aselsan, Roketsan and Havelsan developed weapons and subsystems for the T129.

*Notes & Comments:*

The Pakistan Army evaluated the T129 and Z-10 as part of a ‘plus-one’ requirement for attack helicopters to compliment the forthcoming Bell AH-1Z. Although a program for the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps (PAA), the program apparently drew interest from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and Pakistan Navy as well.

In an interview with MSI Turkish Defence Review during Pakistan’s biennial defence exhibition IDEAS, the Deputy Undersecretary for Defence Industries (SSM) Mustafa Şeker said “The vehicle is required by the Pakistan Army, Navy and Air Force. Thus, all three services are involved in the process [of evaluating the T129].” In effect, the ‘plus-one’ attack helicopter may have been slotted to have a significant impact: from forming an industry link to PAC, expanding the PAA’s Aviation Combat Group to potentially making attack helicopters available to subsets other than the Army’s infantry and armour.

In comparison to either the T129 or Z-10, the Bell AH-1Z is the larger helicopter, especially in terms of payload where it can carry 16 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) in comparison to the eight ATGM-load of the T129 and Z-10. Pakistan took delivery of three Z-10s from China in late 2015. It had appeared that the Pakistan Army would procure the Z-10, but it is apparent that the Z-10 batch was in place for assessment. Alan Warnes reported (via Monch) of “strong speculation” of the three Z-10s in Pakistan no longer flying.

If the T129 order is inked, it would result in an acquisition roadmap of 46-49 modern attack helicopters – i.e. 12-15 AH-1Z, 30 T129 and 4 Mi-35P (a new version of the Mi-35M). Although this is similar in size to the Pakistan Army’s current fleet of AH-1F/S Cobra attack helicopters, the new fleet is vastly more capable. This is a result of integrated electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turrets, integrated countermeasures and fire-and-forget ATGMs, such as the AGM-114R Hellfire-II and Mizrak (UMTAS).

The potential fleet composition would result in a high (AH-1Z) and low (T129) format. Though the AH-1Z is the more capable machine, the T129 would benefit from greater numbers and a local supply channel, resulting in a broader operational impact. The Mi-35P, while also an attack helicopter, can provide troop and cargo lift, making it an asset for hot-zone insertion and extraction.

This attack helicopter fleet may grow in the long-term. When Pakistan ordered its four Mi-35P, IHS Jane’s reported that the Pakistan Army could acquire up to 20 aircraft, though Russian diplomat Zamir Kabulov said that Pakistan is aiming for 10-12 Mi-35Ps. In terms of the T129, Pakistan’s pursuit for local parts manufacturing – and potentially assembly – at PAC could point to long-term fleet expansion.

Granted, linking PAC into the T129 could be viewed as TAI’s attempt to make the T129 more affordable for Pakistan, namely by providing PAC with continual exports of T129 parts and allowing Pakistan to invest some of the expense domestically (i.e. offsets). However, with PAC engaged in co-producing the T129, Pakistan would have the incentive to gradually expand its T129 fleet. Small annual batch orders of over a period of 10-15 years would amount to a sizable fleet (mirroring, albeit at a smaller scale, the PAF’s approach to inducting the JF-17 Thunder).

This would scale transfer-of-technology and maintenance infrastructure costs, but also provide the Army with a means to build its native close air support (CAS) coverage. A large attack helicopter fleet will enable the Army to take the lead on providing CAS coverage for itself, freeing the PAF’s fighter assets to focus on air defence and stand-off range strikes. This would be applicable in counterinsurgency (COIN), where PAF assets have been relied upon to provide strikes against fixed installations and time-sensitive targets, as well as in conventional anti-armour and infantry support operations.

Aselsan, Roketsan and Havelsan would have opportunities to expand activities in Pakistan through the T129. Aselsan is the principal supplier of the T129’s EO/IR turret, avionics and countermeasures suite. The Roketsan Mizrak ATGM is among the T129’s main weapons. Havelsan developed a complete simulator suite for the T129. Pakistan may have the incentive to tie sales from these companies to commercial offsets, particularly in the form of investments in or partnerships with Pakistani companies.

*http://quwa.org/2017/06/25/pakistan-begin-negotiations-t129-attack-helicopters-turkey/
*

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## Cool_Soldier

PAA make it done 

Makeeeeeeeeeeeee itttttttttttt doneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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## BaybarsHan



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## HAIDER




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## cabatli_53

T-129 Atak Orders:

Turkish Land Forces: 59 + 32 (23th delivered)
Turkish Gendarme: 3
Turkish Police Forces: 6 + 3

Pakistan Land Forces: 30 (in negotiation)

Footage from Beytüşşebap !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

cabatli_53 said:


> T-129 Atak Orders:
> 
> Turkish Land Forces: 59 + 32 (23th delivered)
> Turkish Gendarme: 3
> Turkish Police Forces: 6 + 3
> 
> Pakistan Land Forces: 30 (in negotiation)
> 
> Footage from Beytüşşebap !


Gunships for police ?


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## cabatli_53

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Gunships for police ?




A-COIN variant ! Yes...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

cabatli_53 said:


> A-COIN variant ! Yes...


First police force in world to have gunships in service?

Usually police operate choppers (unarmed)...

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## waz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> First police force in world to have gunships in service?
> 
> Usually police operate choppers (unarmed)...



Hahahahahaah. Can you imagine these guys flying attack helicopters?






Allah help Pakistan lol.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> Hahahahahaah. Can you imagine these guys flying attack helicopters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allah help Pakistan lol.


Suicide shift ..



waz said:


> Hahahahahaah. Can you imagine these guys flying attack helicopters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allah help Pakistan lol.


Oye hameed .. helkaaptar kad..

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## waz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Suicide shift ..
> 
> 
> Oye hameed .. helkaaptar kad..



Legadary bro, the 80's were golden. You can watch these guys all day.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

waz said:


> Hahahahahaah. Can you imagine these guys flying attack helicopters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allah help Pakistan lol.


Honestly, I'd take that any day over seeing 3 T129s guard Bilawal House.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> Legadary bro, the 80's were golden. You can watch these guys all day.


I'm from the 90s bro.

Saw these on repeat telecasts.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honestly, I'd take that any day over seeing 3 T129s guard Bilawal House.



Seems the AW choppers went to army aviation ?

McCain and gang;

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## -------

_*Defence Turkey: *A comprehensive test campaign was accomplished for the export of the “Atak” Helicopter to Pakistan and the helicopter received full marks from Pakistan’s procurement authorities. The purchasing country has not announced its final decision yet. Are there any change in the purchasing country’s approach to the procurement strategy regarding the sales of these platforms? Can we say that we have reached a point of sharing this good news that has resulted from close cooperation built with Pakistan, particularly in the recent period?_

*Head of the Helicopters Department Mr. Hüseyin Avşar;* Our efforts in respect to the sales of our T129 “Atak” Helicopters to Pakistan are on course. A far-reaching technical evaluation was managed fruitfully between the related parties and the T129 “Atak” has accomplished a harsh test campaign in Pakistan. The activities to clarify the administrative and financial terms are resuming. The Undersecretary for Defense Industries is constantly paving the way for the defense industry companies to become more competitive in markets abroad. We constantly encourage and support the local companies in overseas markets comprising incentive implementations such as using the intellectual property rights that the government acquires through the projects. Within scope of these export activities we are aspiring to share good news soon.

http://www.defenceturkey.com/en/con...g-local-industry-capability-2721#.WXc00JczpaQ

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## BATMAN

Pakistan need to speedup acquisition of attack helis.
I see a busy times ahead at Pak-Afghan border.

https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pak...29-helicopters-from-turkey-confirm-officials/


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## Ahmet Pasha

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) bro pakistan daily has totally plagiarized your article on t129.


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## khanasifm

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I'm from the 90s bro.
> 
> Saw these on repeat telecasts.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems the AW choppers went to army aviation ?
> 
> McCain and gang;
> 
> View attachment 408740



Unfortunately senator has cancer and may be retiring


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## BATMAN

http://paffalcons.com/paf_falcon/20...ms-t-129-atak-helicopter-talks-with-pakistan/

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## Ahmet Pasha

In the 1st picture. The guy standing right above McCain is wearing different camo is he ANF???


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## Bossman

Ahmet Pasha said:


> In the 1st picture. The guy standing right above McCain is wearing different camo is he ANF???


No FC

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Mcaine would have been a good friend of Pakistan too bad that he did not win election and now reports of him having serious health condition

Good luck on his medical recovery

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## -------

Turkey's Turbo-shaft Engine development introduction film

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## Zarvan

Combat-Master said:


> Turkey's Turbo-shaft Engine development introduction film

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## Mugwop

I am a fan of T-129 but in the end we will get Chinese birds and I'v explained exactly why so.


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## -------

Zarvan said:


>



I wasn't too happy about A-129INT being chosen for Turkey's ATAK tender at first, I was always on the side of Rooivalk. But after seeing the specs, especially the climb rate. I understood why A-129INT was chosen. Rate of climb, is an important aspect I had missed - the terrain of SE Turkey is very mountainous with high elevations and dips. Rate of climb allows the pilot to use T-129 ability to climb fast and get over obstacles quicker which makes T-129 perfect for counter-terrorism in Turkey and perhaps for Pakistan too..

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## Ahmet Pasha

Our North, West and Northwest are also like that. 


Combat-Master said:


> I wasn't too happy about A-129INT being chosen for Turkey's ATAK tender at first, I was always on the side of Rooivalk. But after seeing the specs, especially the climb rate. I understood why A-129INT was chosen. Rate of climb, is an important aspect I had missed - the terrain of SE Turkey is very mountainous with high elevations and dips. Rate of climb allows the pilot to use T-129 ability to climb fast and get over obstacles quicker which makes T-129 perfect for counter-terrorism in Turkey and perhaps for Pakistan too..

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## Incog_nito

I think PAC might be opening a VTOL assembly line for Assembling T-129 ATAK. 

Moreover, there's a need to have an aero engine complex for assembling and over haul for current and future jet engines and turboshaft engines.

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## -------

T-129 in Turkey continuing prove it's Combat Capability.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/896421412394725376

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## Irfan Baloch

Combat-Master said:


> T-129 in Turkey continuing prove it's Combat Capability.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/896421412394725376


lol .. the hunter appears suddenly from 10 seconds onwards 
just amazing flying. by the machine and its pilot



Oxair Online said:


> I think PAC might be opening a *VTOL assembly line for Assembling T-129 ATAK. *
> 
> Moreover, there's a need to have an aero engine complex for assembling and over haul for current and future jet engines and turboshaft engines.


do you know all helicopters have VTOL capability? this term is mainly used for fixed winged aircrafts like Harrier jump jet and F-35 variant.

to accommodate T-129 they will setup a separate helicopter assembly. unless if they plan to have VTOL capable JF-17 varient. and that will have nothing to do with a helicopter.

now thats a combat footage

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## -------

T-129 Combat Footage - AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System controlling 20mm cannon
Also Cirit 70mm missile is launched at beginning of the clip






        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Might explain why the Pakistan Army became interested in the T129 ATAK:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/mspo-2017-the-kruk-of-the-matter/

*MSPO 2017: The Kruk of the matter*
29th August 2017 - 11:08 GMT | by Helen Haxell in London

Despite the postponed advancement of the Polish attack helicopter requirement, likely related to the delayed ASW/SOF tender, companies are outlining proposed platforms for the much anticipated programme.

The twin-engine AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter is being proposed by Bell for the ‘Kruk’ project. 

One of the Viper’s key capabilities for the Polish Armed Forces’ missions is the Target Sight System (TSS), a Bell Helicopter spokesperson commented in a statement to _Shephard_.

Manufactured by Lockheed Martin, the TSS is a multi-sensor EO/IR fire control system which has a large-aperture MW FLIR sensor, a colour display, a laser designator and is installed to the nose of the Viper.

‘The AH-1Z Viper’s targeting sight system is the most advanced system available on an attack helicopter. The Viper has a combat radius of [more than] 240km carrying 16 Hellfire missiles, 2 AIM-9s and 650 20mm rounds,' the company spokesperson stated.

'The aircraft has unmatched air-to-air capability with AIM-9 integrated into the sensors and helmet mounted displays.'

In February this year, Lockheed Martin inked a contract with the USMC in relation to its TSS on board the helicopter.

The 85% technical commonality between the AH-1Z Viper and the UH-1Y Venom means that there are parts widely available, which in turn means cost saving opportunities for prospective customers.

This point of commonality and interoperability is being leveraged as part of Bell's pitch for the helicopter programme.

‘Induction of both the Viper and Venom afford the Polish military and taxpayers with the most advanced technology, combat capability with the greatest technology growth path for pollenisation of any aircraft team on the planet,’ noted the spokesperson.

On its proposed offering, Bell Helicopter is suggesting an ‘industrial package in conjunction with the Viper’, although the company would not divulge any further details.

One non-European competitor is the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 Atak helicopter. Relatively new to the market, the twin-engine multirole combat helicopter is currently in operations with the Turkish Land Forces and was deployed in May 2016 for trials with Pakistan Army Aviation.

*A TAI spokesperson in a statement said that one of the strengths of the rotorcraft in the competition was its maintenance and life-cycle costs. 
*
‘As a candidate for the Kruk programme, T129 Atak is the most modern, agile and robust, day/night, all-weather attack and reconnaissance weapon system, [which is] now being offered to the Polish Air Force to provide best performance and manoeuvre capability for all-weather conditions.'
*
The spokesperson continued: ‘Through effective design, on board diagnostics, minimum crew requirements for maintenance and a simplified logistical footprint, the T129 Atak’s life-cycle costs are very competitive and almost certainly unbeatable in its class.'*

The tender timeline for the programme to replace the Mi-24 remains confidential at this stage and the Polish government remain tight-lipped on the next steps.

Other companies that have also expressed an interest include Airbus Helicopters and Boeing. The tender launch for 16 to 32 aircraft is anticipated later this year or early into 2018.

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## mrrehan

cabatli_53 said:


> Great work indeed... Thnaks bro... I hope We will see the real emblems of Pakistan army on those birds in a short time...




AH-1Z
----------------------------------
weight(Empty): 5,580 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 8,390 kg

Rotor systems: 4 blades on main rotor, 4 blades on tail rotor
Powerplant: 2 X turboshaft, 1,800 shp (1,340 kW) each

Max speed: 400 Km/h
Cruise speed: 296 km/h
Range: 685 km
Combat radius: 231 km with 1,130 kg payload

Hardpoints: Up to 6



T-129
----------------------------------
weight(Empty): 2,350 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg

Rotor systems: 5 blades on main rotor, 2 blades on tail rotor
Powerplant: 2 × turboshaft (1,014 kW) 1,361 shp each

Max speed: 278 km/h
Cruise speed: 296 km/h
Range: 561 km
Combat radius: ?

Hardpoints: Up to 4


Hopefully T-129 going to be more capable and advance in near future. I wish Pakistani engineers make some great brake through in technology with Turkish brothers to make T-129 more lethal.

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## -------

mrrehan said:


> AH-1Z
> ----------------------------------
> weight(Empty): 5,580 kg
> Max. takeoff weight: 8,390 kg
> 
> Rotor systems: 4 blades on main rotor, 4 blades on tail rotor
> Powerplant: 2 X turboshaft, 1,800 shp (1,340 kW) each
> 
> Max speed: 400 Km/h
> Cruise speed: 296 km/h
> Range: 685 km
> Combat radius: 231 km with 1,130 kg payload
> 
> Hardpoints: Up to 6
> 
> 
> 
> T-129
> ----------------------------------
> weight(Empty): 2,350 kg
> Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg
> 
> Rotor systems: 5 blades on main rotor, 2 blades on tail rotor
> Powerplant: 2 × turboshaft (1,014 kW) 1,361 shp each
> 
> Max speed: 278 km/h
> Cruise speed: 296 km/h
> Range: 561 km
> Combat radius: ?
> 
> Hardpoints: Up to 4
> 
> 
> Hopefully T-129 going to be more capable and advance in near future. I wish Pakistani engineers make some great brake through in technology with Turkish brothers to make T-129 more lethal.



Take into account size of T-129, and that it is the only attack helicopter that can fit into C-130 of which Pakistan operates a large fleet.

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## alimobin memon

Combat-Master said:


> Take into account size of T-129, and that it is the only attack helicopter that can fit into C-130 of which Pakistan operates a large fleet.


What about the armour ? If its light means it has less protection lethality.


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## -------

alimobin memon said:


> What about the armour ? If its light means it has less protection lethality.



T-129 has about same armor as AH-1Z. One thing AH-1Z does not have and unique to 129 platform is that all linkages that actuate angle of the blades are inside main rotor shaft. Main rotor shaft is protected up to 14.5mm. AH-1Z does not have such protection for it's main rotor. So T-129 has better survivability, including of course small size and detectability (engine and blade noise) is a factor to survivability.

Also, Turkey has lots of experience with modifying AH-1 platform including upgrading and adding armor.

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## Hassan Guy

Definitely TAI can help establish helicopter manufacturing factory at PAC.

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## Arsalan

Hassan Guy said:


> Definitely TAI can help establish helicopter manufacturing factory at PAC.


And why would they do it? Because you like the idea?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Whats the harm in it bruv???


Arsalan said:


> And why would they do it? Because you like the idea?


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## Arsalan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Whats the harm in it bruv???


Nothing, just like there is not harm in having a space station, a dozen aircraft carrier and may be a mansion on Mars and a few rockets to travel there! 

Limited assembly from kits, extensive manufacturing subsystems locally, complete maintenance setup! THAT IS WHAT WE NEED when it comes to helicopters.

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## -------

T-129 Combat Footage;
_Kurdish terrorist movements were detected by reconnaissance drones, they were then eliminated by T129 attack helicopters, Jandarma units on the ground, as well as f16 fighters._



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

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## Hassan Guy

Arsalan said:


> Nothing, just like there is not harm in having a space station, a dozen aircraft carrier and may be a mansion on Mars and a few rockets to travel there!
> 
> Limited assembly from kits, extensive manufacturing subsystems locally, complete maintenance setup! THAT IS WHAT WE NEED when it comes to helicopters.


If your good with used mi-171 then thats you

Pak needs JV in helicopters like with the Jf-17.

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## Arsalan

Hassan Guy said:


> If your good with used mi-171 then thats you
> 
> Pak needs JV in helicopters like with the Jf-17.


For what? 
30 helicopters?

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## Dr Shaheryar

So as per you Pakistan's total Helicopter requirement is just 30?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> For what?
> 30 helicopters?


More like entire medium lift fleet.. a Pakistani huey or Augusta.

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## Dr Shaheryar

We are talking about Attack Helis here. Pakistan need atleast 75 Attack Helis.

Currently Pakistan has 80 Attack helis in different config.


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## BetterPakistan

Dr Shaheryar said:


> We are talking about Attack Helis here. Pakistan need atleast 75 Attack Helis.
> 
> Currently Pakistan has 80 Attack helis in different config.



Bhai kis dunya mai reh rhai ho?

Bell AH-1F Cobra:- 54 acquired, 3 lost to crashes and 51 left
Mi-35 = 4 received a few days back

Total = 55

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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> More like entire medium lift fleet..


And what will that be? Numbers?
Please do remember that we do operate many already and it is not like they are going anywhere any time soon.


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## Dr Shaheryar

BetterPakistan said:


> Bhai kis dunya mai reh rhai ho?
> 
> Bell AH-1F Cobra:- 54 acquired, 3 lost to crashes and 51 left
> Mi-35 = 4 received a few days back
> 
> Total = 55



Pakistan has 6 IAR 330 Puma
20 Eurocopter fennec
51 Cobras
3 Z10
4 MI35
I think total exceeds 80 Attack Helis.

15 Cobras to be inducted that leaves at least 50+ new attack helis requirement.

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## Sulman Badshah

Dr Shaheryar said:


> Pakistan has 6 IAR 330 Puma
> 20 Eurocopter fennec
> 51 Cobras
> 3 Z10
> 4 MI35
> I think total exceeds 80 Attack Helis.
> 
> 15 Cobras to be inducted that leaves at least 50+ new attack helis requirement.


Puma's aren't attack helicopters 
only 10 are fennec (rest of 10 are Ecureuil )

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## BetterPakistan

Dr Shaheryar said:


> Pakistan has 6 IAR 330 Puma
> 20 Eurocopter fennec
> 51 Cobras
> 3 Z10
> 4 MI35
> I think total exceeds 80 Attack Helis.
> 
> 15 Cobras to be inducted that leaves at least 50+ new attack helis requirement.



  

Eurocopter fennec is basically a utility helicopter not attack. Puma not an attack helicopter.

3 Z-10 were delivered just for trial and are not in service with PA.

51 Cobra + 4 Mi-35 = 55

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## Dr Shaheryar

they are fitted with guns and rocket pods.


BetterPakistan said:


> Eurocopter fennec is basically a utility helicopter not attack. Puma not an attack helicopter.
> 
> 3 Z-10 were delivered just for trial and are not in service with PA.
> 
> 51 Cobra + 4 Mi-35 = 55



z-10 took part in counter terrorism action.

check IAR 350 puma and eurocopter fennec as550 c3 details then comment.

Both versions in Pakistan Army are armed versions.


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## BetterPakistan

Dr Shaheryar said:


> they are fitted with guns and rocket pods.
> 
> 
> z-10 took part in counter terrorism action.
> 
> check IAR 350 puma and eurocopter fennec as550 c3 details then comment.
> 
> Both versions in Pakistan Army are armed versions.



Fennec is lightly armed and basically a utility helicopter and puma is also. I don't know whether you know the difference between an attack helicopter and utility helicopter.

Z-10 was not purchased hence it was given by China to PA to test in counter terrorism operations in Zrb e Azb and it was returned after trials. You should first read something instead of bashing the other person. Yesterday you was quoting a false report about tanks and now attack helicopters. are you high or trying to troll?

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## Dr Shaheryar

For you information available is not reliable. Both Helicopters are used in Attack mode. But since you don't know the difference of different variations in use. I cannot discuss further. Also note nothing has been returned. They are still being used and data is send for evaluation. This I know because one of the Army Aviation Engineer who works on these helis and is a Major told me.


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## Signalian

Hassan Guy said:


> If your good with used mi-171 then thats you
> 
> Pak needs JV in helicopters like with the Jf-17.



Mi-17 does have many good variants in many roles

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## Dr Shaheryar

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/as550_fennec/
Pakistani c3 version.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> And what will that be? Numbers?
> Please do remember that we do operate many already and it is not like they are going anywhere any time soon.


Yes, we operate mant types of medium lift choppers.. MIs,Bells and AW139s... all represent the same category though.. medium class.

Which itself isnt a healthy thing for the military.. considering the logistics etc. 

Sure .. they wont be going anywhere soon.. but a chopper program even if started today wont give fruit the next month or year either... it would still take years... unless we get a chopper under TOT... in which case we can go for Chinese MI clones.

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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yes, we operate mant types of medium lift choppers.. MIs,Bells and AW139s... all represent the same category though.. medium class.
> 
> Which itself isnt a healthy thing for the military.. considering the logistics etc.
> 
> Sure .. they wont be going anywhere soon.. but a chopper program even if started today wont give fruit the next month or year either... it would still take years... unless we get a chopper under TOT... in which case we can go for Chinese MI clones.


So you suggest we just retire them and buy a new aircraft for the whole range? :O 
Bahi ke ho gy jy!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> So you suggest we just retire them and buy a new aircraft for the whole range? :O
> Bahi ke ho gy jy!!


Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?

Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.

That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..

And we have a large fleet..

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## Ahmet Pasha

I Second That


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?
> 
> Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.
> 
> That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..
> 
> And we have a large fleet..

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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?
> 
> Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.
> 
> That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..
> 
> And we have a large fleet..


Nice of you to quote example of India
The problem or the point to note here is number of helicopters required.

Our requirment is of 180 200 systems max and will technical prefer two types for this. Getting a complete in house "Manufacturing" facility for 80 ofd choppers is

not feasible
not how we work
Our best approach to this can and should be to select the system, sign a deal where we can then

Upgrade and maintain them at home
Can make majority of frequently required spares at home
Get assembly setup of some sort
Get some parts made at home that we can export to the country of origin to be used in there other deals as well
This is both financially more feasible and also is reliable in troubled times so we can always keep yhem air worthy. Also generates some money.

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## Khafee

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?
> 
> Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.
> 
> That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..
> 
> And we have a large fleet..


I said this a long time ago, that their procurement policy is short sighted.

Pakistan is lucky enough to have a strong engineering base, they need to develop it further.

Pakistani Armed Forces right now need three types of helos:

1) Gunships
2) Light lift
3) Medium Lift

The only way to get them in decent numbers is to build them at home, with tech collaboration from abroad.

They need to first identify what is the exact number required, for each type, for the next 10 ~ 15 years, then rope in a manufacturer who is willing to give ToT.

Each year if they were to induct 25 ~ 30 domestically built helos, you are looking at 250 ~ 300 helos in 10 years. It is not hard to find a manufacturer who will support this initiative, but the top military brass is dragging its feet. It should have happened a long time ago.



Arsalan said:


> Nice of you to quote example of India
> The problem or the point to note here is number of helicopters required.
> 
> Our requirment is of 180 200 systems max and will technical prefer two types for this. Getting a complete in house "Manufacturing" facility for 80 ofd choppers is
> 
> not feasible
> not how we work
> Our best approach to this can and should be to select the system, sign a deal where we can then
> 
> Upgrade and maintain them at home
> Can make majority of frequently required spares at home
> Get assembly setup of some sort
> Get some parts made at home that we can export to the country of origin to be used in there other deals as well
> This is both financially more feasible and also is reliable in troubled times so we can always keep yhem air worthy. Also generates some money.



180 ~ 200 only for Army, or all 3 services?

Secondly, "max" is a relative term, directly linked to your financial condition, and NOT operational requirement.

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> I said this a long time ago, that their procurement policy is short sighted.
> 
> Pakistan is lucky enough to have a strong engineering base, they need to develop it further.
> 
> Pakistani Armed Forces right now need three types of helos:
> 
> 1) Gunships
> 2) Light lift
> 3) Medium Lift
> 
> The only way to get them in decent numbers is to build them at home, with tech collaboration from abroad.
> 
> They need to first identify what is the exact number required, for each type, for the next 10 ~ 15 years, then rope in a manufacturer who is willing to give ToT.
> 
> Each year if they were to induct 25 ~ 30 domestically built helos, you are looking at 250 ~ 300 helos in 10 years. It is not hard to find a manufacturer who will support this initiative, but the top military brass is dragging its feet. It should have happened a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 180 ~ 200 only for Army, or all 3 services?
> 
> Secondly, "max" is a relative term, directly linked to your financial condition, and NOT operational requirement.


Helos may be the one of the most neglected weapons by our military top brass, all of the system acquisitions have been invariably marked by either corrupt practices and/or short-sight vision. Agosta-90b deal is one such major example. BB, Zardari and the leadership of Navy made huge sums and went for a 2nd tier system instead of Scorpene or Merlins. Furthermore, Agosta was acquired on ToT basis but where is all that ToT and the team as Pakistan is still importing subs from a foreign source. But we paid the price for that ToT and not just for the boats. ToT price is significantly more especially when the number of systems acquired is low. Who is responsible for that? and will he ever be made accountable and punished? and list goes on..

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## Khafee

Dr Shaheryar said:


> they are fitted with guns and rocket pods.
> 
> 
> z-10 took part in counter terrorism action.
> 
> check IAR 350 puma and eurocopter fennec as550 c3 details then comment.
> 
> Both versions in Pakistan Army are armed versions.


IAR350 Puma donated by UAE are transport helos, and do not carry any armament, unless operated by dedicated gunners, neither are they pod capable to date. This I can assure you.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khafee said:


> I said this a long time ago, that their procurement policy is short sighted.
> 
> Pakistan is lucky enough to have a strong engineering base, they need to develop it further.
> 
> Pakistani Armed Forces right now need three types of helos:
> 
> 1) Gunships
> 2) Light lift
> 3) Medium Lift
> 
> The only way to get them in decent numbers is to build them at home, with tech collaboration from abroad.
> 
> They need to first identify what is the exact number required, for each type, for the next 10 ~ 15 years, then rope in a manufacturer who is willing to give ToT.
> 
> Each year if they were to induct 25 ~ 30 domestically built helos, you are looking at 250 ~ 300 helos in 10 years. It is not hard to find a manufacturer who will support this initiative, but the top military brass is dragging its feet. It should have happened a long time ago.


The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.

Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets. 

China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers. 

Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).

In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.

On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.

The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149. 

You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support. 

If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).

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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.
> 
> Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets.
> 
> China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers.
> 
> Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).
> 
> In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.
> 
> On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.
> 
> The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149.
> 
> You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support.
> 
> If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).


You have outlined three possible partners, all three have issues, primarily:

Turkey - Engine Tech is still in its infancy, plus the limited range of helos

China- Quality and tech is still an issue, but is improving, and is sanction free

Italy - Cost is an issue, and tech transfer could be an issue as well. Pakistanis are not going to be trusted by Europeans so easily, they are still breaking their heads, at the fact that PAF is still flying Mirage 3's.

Now out of these three, which all make sense, one has to be selected and implemented, but the top brass has to put in the same impetus, as the Jordanian Viper deal.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Many defence planners must have such knowledge as you. But they sometimes are suppressed by the corrupt elements.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.
> 
> Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets.
> 
> China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers.
> 
> Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).
> 
> In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.
> 
> On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.
> 
> The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149.
> 
> You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support.
> 
> If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.
> 
> Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets.
> 
> China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers.
> 
> Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).
> 
> In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.
> 
> On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.
> 
> The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149.
> 
> You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support.
> 
> If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).


Excellent suggestion as usual.
I also have a little suggestion that Pakistan should initiate the project itself based on its particular needs and then try to do JVs, ToTs and off the shelf purchase for various systems and the components. Both China and Turkey are lagging behind the west in the engine technology so engine should be acquired either from the West or Russia and rest of the components and subsystems can also be JVed or acquired and with each iteration, a few components get deleted from the acquisition list i.e. produced locally. That will give Pakistan both the flexibility, technology and a product at reasonable price.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khafee said:


> You have outlined three possible partners, all three have issues, primarily:
> 
> Turkey - Engine Tech is still in its infancy, plus the limited range of helos
> 
> China- Quality and tech is still an issue, but is improving, and is sanction free
> 
> Italy - Cost is an issue, and tech transfer could be an issue as well. Pakistanis are not going to be trusted by Europeans so easily, they are still breaking their heads, at the fact that PAF is still flying Mirage 3's.
> 
> Now out of these three, which all make sense, one has to be selected and implemented, but the top brass has to put in the same impetus, as the Jordanian Viper deal.


tbh I don't think there's much of a gap between Leonardo's rotor and airframe tech than that of AVIC. I say this because AVIC itself is partners with Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group in several pretty key projects, including turboshaft engines (e.g. Ardiden 3). Cost will probably be the biggest determining factor, but AW149 itself was designed to control that by being based on the AW139, itself an affordable and vastly used (hence, scaled) helicopter.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Some of the lesser developed nations are going to become major consumers in defence sector. Pakistan should try to find a niche and exploit it and try to become a VENDOR foreign orders would very likely stimulate innovation. And all of this should be run parallel to local defence needs.

And as is the case with most things in Pakistan. Education is the most fundamental need to achieve these goals. In unison with cultural rejuvination and inculcation of patriotism. (Bollywood is exported to Pakistan for a reason)


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I don't think there's much of a gap between Leonardo's rotor and airframe tech than that of AVIC. I say this because AVIC itself is partners with Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group in several pretty key projects, including turboshaft engines (e.g. Ardiden 3). Cost will probably be the biggest determining factor, but AW149 itself was designed to control that by being based on the AW139, itself an affordable and vastly used (hence, scaled) helicopter.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Some of the lesser developed nations are going to become major consumers in defence sector. Pakistan should try to find a niche and exploit it and try to become a VENDOR foreign orders would very likely stimulate innovation. And all of this should be run parallel to local defence needs.
> 
> And as is the case with most things in Pakistan. Education is the most fundamental need to achieve these goals. In unison with cultural rejuvination and inculcation of patriotism. (Bollywood is exported to Pakistan for a reason)


Passion warms blood in the veins, but you actually need people to hustle to get work done.

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## Ahmet Pasha

True Bro.
But I dnt knw if u have grown up in Pakistan or overseas. But when I was growing up in Pakistan none of my peers really cared about Pakistan or more specifically the CONCEPT of Pakistan. Or their traditions, values or their religion. All they cared about was "bachian", fast food, and ending up at a good job (mostly spurred on by their parents in this area). So u see these are very grass roots level stuff that shapes ur general who is in charge of a procurement program or a diplomat who is to negotiate a deal for defence hardware on behalf of Pakistan or the maybe the defence minister himself. Thus, I could go far as to assert that it shapes a nation. If our youth which, forms a whopping bulk of our population in Pakistan and is our future does not care. Then, how do we make progress without having necessary grass root stuff nailed down?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Passion warms blood in the veins, but you actually need people to hustle to get work done.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> True Bro.
> But I dnt knw if u have grown up in Pakistan or overseas. But when I was growing up in Pakistan none of my peers really cared about Pakistan or more specifically the CONCEPT of Pakistan. Or their traditions, values or their religion. All they cared about was "bachian", fast food, and ending up at a good job (mostly spurred on by their parents in this area). So u see these are very grass roots level stuff that shapes ur general who is in charge of a procurement program or a diplomat who is to negotiate a deal for defence hardware on behalf of Pakistan or the maybe the defence minister himself. Thus, I could go far as to assert that it shapes a nation. If our youth which, forms a whopping bulk of our population in Pakistan and is our future does not care. Then, how do we make progress without having necessary grass root stuff nailed down?


I was raised in the West, and I assure you, a lot of that was among my peers too (of all shades and backgrounds). But each and everyone of us had hustled to get the best we possibly could. Our progress in life was tied to results and work ethic, and those lacking in either were cast aside. You have to hustle. There are some people in Canada that love Canada with great passion, yet they lacked hustle, and so they're loving Canada from their barista jobs instead of the top banks, law firms, consulting firms, etc. That's the difference hustle can make. A charlatan can pump your peers up with passion and love for Pakistan in no time, but if you don't have an honest and earnest work ethic, then you're useless.

Personally, I absolutely hate people with "soost" running in their veins. IMO, Pakistan has too many such people in important positions, and that needs to be rectified in order for progress to happen. But alas, back to the T129

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Quite suprised at the Lathargic rate of purchase or conclusion of contract both for Z-10/ T-129 and even Mi-35 amazingly slow process

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## Dr Shaheryar

Defense Purchase all over the world takes a lot of time. So many clearances to obtain for these defense purchases

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was raised in the West, and I assure you, a lot of that was among my peers too (of all shades and backgrounds). But each and everyone of us had hustled to get the best we possibly could. Our progress in life was tied to results and work ethic, and those lacking in either were cast aside. You have to hustle. There are some people in Canada that love Canada with great passion, yet they lacked hustle, and so they're loving Canada from their barista jobs instead of the top banks, law firms, consulting firms, etc. That's the difference hustle can make. A charlatan can pump your peers up with passion and love for Pakistan in no time, but if you don't have an honest and earnest work ethic, then you're useless.
> 
> Personally, I absolutely hate people with "soost" running in their veins. IMO, Pakistan has too many such people in important positions, and that needs to be rectified in order for progress to happen. But alas, back to the T129


Well when you have lethargic and incompetent person on the top, the subordinates do not need to hustle and work ethically, they are far better off with flattery and becoming part of the loathe-able culture. 
We have a guy in our politics who at 62 years of age runs 1 hour daily and does not sit idle on his laurels and incidentally he is honest and straight forward too. And these traits have helped him in his drive to ouster the most corrupt and the deeply entrenched mafia of this country. I'm pretty sure when he graces the highest office the govt, he will be quite a "hustler".

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## war&peace

Dr Shaheryar said:


> Defense Purchase all over the world takes a lot of time. So many clearances to obtain for these defense purchases


Hey,
That's why you have to plan in advance...decades in advance and that requires the eyes that can see deep into the future...not just next 5 years.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

war&peace said:


> Well when you have lethargic and incompetent person on the top, the subordinates do not need to hustle and work ethically, they are far better off with flattery and becoming part of the loathe-able culture.
> We have a guy in our politics who at 62 years of age runs 1 hour daily and does not sit idle on his laurels and incidentally he is honest and straight forward too. And these traits have helped him in his drive to ouster the most corrupt and the deeply entrenched mafia of this country. I'm pretty sure when he graces the highest office the govt, he will be quite a "hustler".


It's not just top hustle, but a culture of accountability too. I'm shamed to admit it, but I enjoy busting a Desi for soost, e.g. the guy doesn't follow simple instructions and then forcing him to explain (in sequential steps) why he didn't do as asked or required. Wish that with the politicians and bureaucrats (from a position of strength, not complaining).

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## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not just top hustle, but a culture of accountability too. I'm shamed to admit it, but I enjoy busting a Desi for soost, e.g. the guy doesn't follow simple instructions and then forcing him to explain (in sequential steps) why he didn't do as asked or required. Wish that with the politicians and bureaucrats (from a position of strength, not complaining).


Sir, I agree 100% that this culture needs to be changed across the board but it will take a long time if it starts from the bottom but will be much faster if it comes from the top...I guess gravity is the culprit here

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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I don't think there's much of a gap between Leonardo's rotor and airframe tech than that of AVIC. I say this because AVIC itself is partners with Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group in several pretty key projects, including turboshaft engines (e.g. Ardiden 3). Cost will probably be the biggest determining factor, but AW149 itself was designed to control that by being based on the AW139, itself an affordable and vastly used (hence, scaled) helicopter.



AVIC can be a good partner, but some of it's products are licensed copies, so for a manufacturer like that to do a JV, is highly questionable. The best thing with AVIC is it's "sanction free", and it's economical price tag can't be ignored either.

The AW149's civilian equivalent is the AW189. You rightly said it is based on the AW139M. Which Pak already operates, so the training and maintenance base is already there.

Given how every manufacturer is looking to increase revenue, if a direct JV with AW could be signed, it would be great. They have a very diverse portfolio, and one would greatly benefit from it.

IF AW is smart they will realize, that there is a major market out there for their products at reasonable prices, not the current exorbitant ones. Manufacturing and Assembling in Pakistan would greatly increase their revenue base. But it takes two to tango.

Lets hope, some +ve developments happen on this issue. 

Best Regards

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## Ahmet Pasha

Honestly guys I have seen so many positive results in my life from my health to work ethics just by implementing sunnah in many areas of my life. One british agent of the queen told her that muslims would be an indestructable force if they hold on firmly to the quran. All we have to do is bring Islam back into our lives. 


Khafee said:


> AVIC can be a good partner, but some of it's products are licensed copies, so for a manufacturer like that to do a JV, is highly questionable. The best thing with AVIC is it's "sanction free", and it's economical price tag can't be ignored either.
> 
> The AW149's civilian equivalent is the AW189. You rightly said it is based on the AW139M. Which Pak already operates, so the training and maintenance base is already there.
> 
> Given how every manufacturer is looking to increase revenue, if a direct JV with AW could be signed, it would be great. They have a very diverse portfolio, and one would greatly benefit from it.
> 
> IF AW is smart they will realize, that there is a major market out there for their products at reasonable prices, not the current exorbitant ones. Manufacturing and Assembling in Pakistan would greatly increase their revenue base. But it takes two to tango.
> 
> Lets hope, some +ve developments happen on this issue.
> 
> Best Regards

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## Khafee

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Honestly guys I have seen so many positive results in my life from my health to work ethics just by implementing sunnah in many areas of my life. One british agent of the queen told her that muslims would be an indestructable force if they hold on firmly to the quran. All we have to do is bring Islam back into our lives.


Now the libturds will hound you off this forum.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yep. Anyway lets get back to t-129


Khafee said:


> Now the libturds will hound you off this forum.

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## war&peace

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Honestly guys I have seen so many positive results in my life from my health to work ethics just by implementing sunnah in many areas of my life. One british agent of the queen told her that muslims would be an indestructable force if they hold on firmly to the quran. All we have to do is bring Islam back into our lives.



There is no doubt about. We should also try after all we are Muslim.

But never speak truth like this on this forum, you know it hurts certain @aholes so much and their rectii start burning so much that you can smell it even sitting thousands of km away from them.

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## BATMAN

Combat-Master said:


> T-129 Combat Footage;
> _Kurdish terrorist movements were detected by reconnaissance drones, they were then eliminated by T129 attack helicopters, Jandarma units on the ground, as well as f16 fighters._


That's how Pakistan should operate.
Just petrol Iran /Afghan border areas with drones and quick response attack heli must deal with threats initially, later Mi35 can drop soldiers to consolidate and take over. Boots on ground must be the last step.

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## -------

BATMAN said:


> That's how Pakistan should operate.
> Just petrol Iran /Afghan border areas with drones and quick response attack heli must deal with threats initially, later Mi35 can drop soldiers to consolidate and take over. Boots on ground must be the last step.



Gunships and Turbo-prop COIN aircrafts will enter service soon, our capability gaps in fight against terrorism is tightening.

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## Irfan Baloch

Arsalan said:


> For what?
> 30 helicopters?


yea we will not settle for anything less that JV, complete ToT and handing over the bank accounts and giving the keys to their homes as well.
because we know these terms and its our muscle memory and compulsion that we throw them on the news about pen knives to buying a handful of utility vehicles because this is how we become strong brother.
long live the young Pakistani webforce generals

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> yea we will not settle for anything less that JV, complete ToT and handing over the bank accounts and giving the keys to their homes as well.
> because we know these terms and its our muscle memory and compulsion that we throw them on the news about pen knives to buying a handful of utility vehicles because this is how we become strong brother.
> long live the young Pakistani webforce generals


After reading this, even I dont want to post anymore. A bit too harsh bro.

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## Irfan Baloch

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Whats the harm in it bruv???


do you or your father buy a car? why dont you buy a car plant? then you can make your own car for your children too

makes economic sense yea?



Combat-Master said:


> T-129 Combat Footage;
> _Kurdish terrorist movements were detected by reconnaissance drones, they were then eliminated by T129 attack helicopters, Jandarma units on the ground, as well as f16 fighters._


is the footage from the terrorists?



Khafee said:


> After reading this, even I dont want to post anymore. A bit too harsh bro.


and sad as well because they have access to a computer and ability to write as well but lack basic comprehension of the world and economies of scale and scarcity of resources and challenges of allocating funds and having enough people to spare for... yes 30 units ToT manufacturing facilities .

real life is much harsher than that for our innocent pupoo's once they leave the nest they will find it our one way or another

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> do you or your father buy a car? why dont you buy a car plant? then you can make your own car for your children too
> 
> makes economic sense yea?
> 
> 
> is the footage from the terrorists?
> 
> 
> and sad as well because they have access to a computer and ability to write as well but lack basic comprehension of the world and economies of scale and scarcity of resources and challenges of allocating funds and having enough people to spare for... yes 30 units ToT manufacturing facilities .
> 
> real life is much harsher than that for our innocent pupoo's once they leave the nest they will find it our one way or another


I concur, nobody is going to give anybody ToT for 30 units, and my personal opinion is that 30 is a ridiculous figure, as you can see from my posts on this thread.

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## BetterPakistan

Dr Shaheryar said:


> For you information available is not reliable. Both Helicopters are used in Attack mode. But since you don't know the difference of different variations in use. I cannot discuss further. Also note nothing has been returned. They are still being used and data is send for evaluation. This I know because one of the Army Aviation Engineer who works on these helis and is a Major told me.



Do quote me kid so that I can get a notification and respond.

You have no source to prove your false information. Fennec and Puma as I said are utility helicopters basically. Go and search about the difference between a complete attack helicopter and lightly armed utility helicopter kiddo. I don't understand why kiddos like you come here and try to become experts


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## DESERT FIGHTER

BetterPakistan said:


> Do quote me kid so that I can get a notification and respond.
> 
> You have no source to prove your false information. Fennec and Puma as I said are utility helicopters basically. Go and search about the difference between a complete attack helicopter and lightly armed utility helicopter kiddo. I don't understand why kiddos like you come here and try to become experts


Fennec is a light attack heli... acts more like a scout ...

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## T-123456

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Fennec is a light attack heli... acts more like a scout ...


Some countries use it as attack helicopter(AS550C3 version).
Does Pakistan have any AS550C3's?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/as550-fennec-helicopter/

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## DESERT FIGHTER

T-123456 said:


> Some countries use it as attack helicopter(AS550C3 version).
> Does Pakistan have any AS550C3's?
> http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/as550-fennec-helicopter/


We operate both variants:

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## Zarvan

Z-11WB during its flight demonstration at China Helicopter Exposition 2017. Armed on the helicopter pylons are 2 CM-502KG anti-ship missiles and 4 TY-90 air-to-air missiles.

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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> For what?
> 30 helicopters?


honestly requirement of medium utility helicopter is >150
think about all the bell, puma that we need to replace along with to some extent the mi 17 though they are more on the heavier side. if we start now production wount happen before 2030

i dont think we need an attack helicopter JV though


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> Nice of you to quote example of India
> The problem or the point to note here is number of helicopters required.
> 
> Our requirment is of 180 200 systems max and will technical prefer two types for this. Getting a complete in house "Manufacturing" facility for 80 ofd choppers is
> 
> not feasible
> not how we work
> Our best approach to this can and should be to select the system, sign a deal where we can then
> 
> Upgrade and maintain them at home
> Can make majority of frequently required spares at home
> Get assembly setup of some sort
> Get some parts made at home that we can export to the country of origin to be used in there other deals as well
> This is both financially more feasible and also is reliable in troubled times so we can always keep yhem air worthy. Also generates some money.


Our requirements are for over 300 choppers.. and than some (if you add choppers operated by govt and civilian institutions)...
And its not like after 300 choppers we wont need any.. and would have to close down production.
Countries like Romania,Korea,Iran,Japan,Argentina,Poland,Turkey and many other nations are producing choppers and some of them have smaller fleets than Pak.
And if you think 300 choppers are somehow not worth it.. I wonder what would you say about JF program?



ziaulislam said:


> honestly requirement of medium utility helicopter is >150
> think about all the bell, puma that we need to replace along with to some extent the mi 17 though they are more on the heavier side. if we start now production wount happen before 2030
> 
> i dont think we need an attack helicopter JV though


A medium category chopper could replace;
Bells
MIs
Pumas
Probably even Z9s etc.

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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Our requirements are for over 300 choppers.. and than some (if you add choppers operated by govt and civilian institutions)...
> And its not like after 300 choppers we wont need any.. and would have to close down production.
> Countries like Romania,Korea,Iran,Japan,Argentina,Poland,Turkey and many other nations are producing choppers and some of them have smaller fleets than Pak.
> And if you think 300 choppers are somehow not worth it.. I wonder what would you say about JF program?
> 
> 
> A medium category chopper could replace;
> Bells
> MIs
> Pumas
> Probably even Z9s etc.


In the 300 choppers you mentioned, we will need two or three different types at least. A single platform even if being produced at home will never fit in. That leaves us with 80-100 per type. Again, a number worthy for:

Complete maintenance and overhaul facility
Extensive assembly
Parts manufacturing for the parent company (to be exported to them)
Anyway, this is my personal opinion and i may be wrong with this. Not forcing my opinion upon you or anyone else. It is just that i think that the option i am pointing to will serve us better.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Arsalan said:


> In the 300 choppers you mentioned, we will need two or three different types at least. A single platform even if being produced at home will never fit in. That leaves us with 80-100 per type. Again, a number worthy for:
> 
> Complete maintenance and overhaul facility
> Extensive assembly
> Parts manufacturing for the parent company (to be exported to them)
> Anyway, this is my personal opinion and i may be wrong with this. Not forcing my opinion upon you or anyone else. It is just that i think that the option i am pointing to will serve us better.


2,3 types.

Bro, we hardly have a dozen or 2 light choppers like Fennecs and Z9s.

Same case with sea kings.

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## mikaal hassan

Arsalan said:


> In the 300 choppers you mentioned, we will need two or three different types at least. A single platform even if being produced at home will never fit in. That leaves us with 80-100 per type. Again, a number worthy for:
> 
> Complete maintenance and overhaul facility
> Extensive assembly
> Parts manufacturing for the parent company (to be exported to them)
> Anyway, this is my personal opinion and i may be wrong with this. Not forcing my opinion upon you or anyone else. It is just that i think that the option i am pointing to will serve us better.


i think bilal khan (quwa) can give us a better opinion on helicopter production in pakistan and replacing of our old helicopters 
we still got a chance of replacing our medium lift helicopters with one single helicopter company 
http://quwa.org/2017/09/13/airbus-e...roduce-h215m-super-puma-transport-helicopter/

super puma h215m and if we want to go for a heavy lift helicopter we can get that as well with a similar engine and a lot of other similar components in h225m . we have got experience of using puma any way..AIRBUS i am sure will be willing to help us setup a factory for both these helicopters as we are already there customers .and with a requirement of lets say roughly 200 helicopters for all 3 armed forces and paramilitary forces and civilian market PUMA will be the best option


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## Ahmet Pasha

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Our requirements are for over 300 choppers.. and than some (if you add choppers operated by govt and civilian institutions)...
> And its not like after 300 choppers we wont need any.. and would have to close down production.
> Countries like Romania,Korea,Iran,Japan,Argentina,Poland,Turkey and many other nations are producing choppers and some of them have smaller fleets than Pak.
> And if you think 300 choppers are somehow not worth it.. I wonder what would you say about JF program?
> 
> 
> A medium category chopper could replace;
> Bells
> MIs
> Pumas
> Probably even Z9s etc.



Totally agree.
We could definitly profit from investing in a jack of all trades medium helicopter.
For the light/scout category we can purchase in numbers required.
But the bulk of the aviation fleet should be homegrown.

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## MastanKhan

@Khafee 
Thank you for the tag---the easiest option is the chinese and the Italians can supply the EW package---but then italians can be prone to sanctions---.

So---then it falls back to the chinese helicopters---because the turks will also be prone to sanctions---unless they build their own helicopter from scrtach.

We still need the likes of the MI35 for work in fata and baluchistan---.

Bottom line is that we need to find a 40/60---60/40 or a 50/50 partner.

Private investors need to be encouraged. Unless private investors don't jump in---there will be issues with the defense sector.

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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> In the 300 choppers you mentioned, we will need two or three different types at least. A single platform even if being produced at home will never fit in. That leaves us with 80-100 per type. Again, a number worthy for:
> 
> Complete maintenance and overhaul facility
> Extensive assembly
> Parts manufacturing for the parent company (to be exported to them)
> Anyway, this is my personal opinion and i may be wrong with this. Not forcing my opinion upon you or anyone else. It is just that i think that the option i am pointing to will serve us better.


it depends, if you prioritize a medium utility helicopter and its variant can replace many subtypes in PAF, PN and pak army

the obvious replacement would have been the 
1. Z 9 (a naval variant with some changes)
2. AW 139(20+ in service)
3. Pumas (70+ in service)
4. bell (70+ in service)

all of the above are more or less very similar in capabilities and single local platform will be lot cheaper in long run, and if some compromise is done it could replace some of mi 17s as well, i believe a market for 150 can easily be made over the next 20-30 years, this would be far less cheaper if another partner let say like china or turkey is sought as JV

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## niaz

ziaulislam said:


> it depends, if you prioritize a medium utility helicopter and its variant can replace many subtypes in PAF, PN and pak army
> 
> the obvious replacement would have been the
> 1. Z 9 (a naval variant with some changes)
> 2. AW 139(20+ in service)
> 3. Pumas (70+ in service)
> 4. bell (70+ in service)
> 
> all of the above are more or less very similar in capabilities and single local platform will be lot cheaper in long run, and if some compromise is done it could replace some of mi 17s as well, i believe a market for 150 can easily be made over the next 20-30 years, this would be far less cheaper if another partner let say like china or turkey is sought as JV



A slight correction Sir,

Z-9 is a derivative of AS 365N Dauphin and a lighter machine with max take -off weight of 4,100 kg compared to Puma - max T.O.W is 7,100 kg roughly the same as for AW 139. Bell UH-1 is closest to Z-9 in lift capability.


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## Arsalan

ziaulislam said:


> it depends, if you prioritize a medium utility helicopter and its variant can replace many subtypes in PAF, PN and pak army
> 
> the obvious replacement would have been the
> 1. Z 9 (a naval variant with some changes)
> 2. AW 139(20+ in service)
> 3. Pumas (70+ in service)
> 4. bell (70+ in service)
> 
> all of the above are more or less very similar in capabilities and single local platform will be lot cheaper in long run, and if some compromise is done it could replace some of mi 17s as well, i believe a market for 150 can easily be made over the next 20-30 years, this would be far less cheaper if another partner let say like china or turkey is sought as JV


Sir je the idea, world over is to keep some part commons and build a platform around that to serve in different roles. I am already saying that it is those parts that we should be targeting.



Irfan Baloch said:


> yea we will not settle for anything less that JV, complete ToT and handing over the bank accounts and giving the keys to their homes as well.
> because we know these terms and its our muscle memory and compulsion that we throw them on the news about pen knives to buying a handful of utility vehicles because this is how we become strong brother.
> long live the young Pakistani webforce generals


ROFL




Khafee said:


> After reading this, even I dont want to post anymore. A bit too harsh bro.


 but true i would have to say!!

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## Ahmet Pasha

Us military has blackhawk serving all kinds of roles and across all 5 service arms.
We could make a helicopter on the same concept. That is versatile and can serve in every role in all service branches(we have more than 3 but organized under 3 main branches). Regardless we are going to need a lot of helicopters in future.

Instead of having a logistical nightmare of having helicopters of every hue and color we should have one home grown helicopter (as discussed above) to form the bulk of PAA PAF PN Law Enforcement fleet. And save foreign exchange to buy helicopters which are expendable and not viable to produce at home.

Also we dnt only need helicopters for military or police purposes. There are government and civil purposes too.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Irfan Baloch said:


> do you or your father buy a car? why dont you buy a car plant? then you can make your own car for your children too
> 
> makes economic sense yea?
> 
> 
> is the footage from the terrorists?
> 
> 
> and sad as well because they have access to a computer and ability to write as well but lack basic comprehension of the world and economies of scale and scarcity of resources and challenges of allocating funds and having enough people to spare for... yes 30 units ToT manufacturing facilities .
> 
> real life is much harsher than that for our innocent pupoo's once they leave the nest they will find it our one way or another



Bro if I knew that I could fulfill my own needs and sell those cars to other money and end up with a b*tt load of money. It would make perfect economical sense and I would go right ahead and do it. And live the rest of my life in Beverly Hills.


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## BetterPakistan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Fennec is a light attack heli... acts more like a scout ...



yeah but basically a utility helicopter and lightly armed, cannot be called an attack helicopter.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

BetterPakistan said:


> yeah but basically a utility helicopter and lightly armed, cannot be called an attack helicopter.


Hence a scout.

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> Z-11WB during its flight demonstration at China Helicopter Exposition 2017. Armed on the helicopter pylons are 2 CM-502KG anti-ship missiles and 4 TY-90 air-to-air missiles.



This Helicopter is gonna be a good option for Border patrol anti terrorism mission and patrolling in Balochistan and FATA areas

FC and Rangers should get these

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## Ahmet Pasha

I think they have huey.


Muhammad Omar said:


> This Helicopter is gonna be a good option for Border patrol anti terrorism mission and patrolling in Balochistan and FATA areas
> 
> FC and Rangers should get these

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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I think they have huey.


No those are also being used by Army not Rangers and FC

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## -------

This infographic was recently published by Turkish Defence Ministry;

T-129 has flown 11,475 hours since it's induction into Armed Force.

59 T-129 helicopters will be produced, 24 helicopters have been delivered and 35 more are in production.
9 T-129*EDH* were delivered to Turkish armed forces, for urgent requirement.
15 T-129*A* were delivered.
14 T-129*A* variants are in production.
21 T-129*B* variants will begin production once T-129A variants have been delivered.

_Understanding the T-129 variants_

*EDH *variant of T-129 was produced to fill in urgent requirement of the Armed forces, had minimal weapons and self-protection.
*A *variant has Missile warning, Flare dispenser, IR suppressor, Tactical radio (Link-11). Full weapons integrated.
*B *variant is the final version in ATAK project, it will have all protection systems of *A* variant including, Laser warning system, Radar Warning, RF Jamming, Chaff/Flare Dispenser, BLOS Tactical Radio (Link-22)
Further indigenisation of T-129, 20mm cannon to be produced in Turkey and TEI TS1400 gas turbineengine development

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## cabatli_53

TAI has announced to develop a new heavy Atak variant with a take off weight around 8 ton.

http://www.star.com.tr/teknoloji/tu...iklama-yeni-nesil-anka-geliyor-haber-1258992/

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## cabatli_53

Acc to TAI manager Temel Kotil, Design studies to develop a new utility helicopter having a take off weight of 10t is commenced. 

Prototype manufacturing of 6t Utility helicopter called T-625 is almost completed.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is the 10 ton helicopter going to compete against t70 blackhawks????


cabatli_53 said:


> Acc to TAI manager Temel Kotil, Design studies to develop a new utility helicopter having a take off weight of 10t is commenced.
> 
> Prototype manufacturing of 6t Utility helicopter called T-625 is almost completed.

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## -------

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is the 10 ton helicopter going to compete against t70 blackhawks????



I think it'll become more obvious once some official artists renderings are published, but currently TAI is developing for the civilian market - and perhaps making sure the Americans are being kept honest, America can revoke T-70 license anytime showing them that we are capable of producing a 10ton helicopter might keep them keen on continuing business as usual

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## Ahmet Pasha

Thats a good idea. Considering what they just did to uk and canada in the bombardier affair.


Combat-Master said:


> I think it'll become more obvious once some official artists renderings are published, but currently TAI is developing for the civilian market - and perhaps making sure the Americans are being kept honest, America can revoke T-70 license anytime showing them that we are capable of producing a 10ton helicopter might keep them keen on continuing business as usual

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## cabatli_53

44th Atak on production line.

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## -------

T-129 spitting fire

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/915291225913200641

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## cabatli_53

More details about Atak-2

-New fuselage design with 6ton MTOW
-T-625 domestic rotor and transmission to be used on Atak-2
-TEI TS-1400 domestic turboshaft engine (1400shp standart, 1650shp on 30second each)
-T-129 avionics (more advanced
version)

Advantages over T-129
-Enhanced payload capacity
-Enhanced duration
-Enhanced speed
-Lower development costs
-Lower logistic cost thanks to many common systems with T-625 and new 10t utility helicopter.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Since 2010 , Pakistan have not sealed the deal we could have had 100 helicopters by now


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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> More details about Atak-2
> 
> -New fuselage design with 6ton MTOW
> -T-625 domestic rotor and transmission to be used on Atak-2
> -TEI TS-1400 domestic turboshaft engine (1400shp standart, 1650shp on 30second each)
> -T-129 avionics (more advanced
> version)
> 
> Advantages over T-129
> -Enhanced payload capacity
> -Enhanced duration
> -Enhanced speed
> -Lower development costs
> -Lower logistic cost thanks to many common systems with T-625 and new 10t utility helicopter.


And when you are expecting first one to come

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## -------

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Since 2010 , Pakistan have not sealed the deal we could have had 100 helicopters by now



It's not an easy decision to make, and it's even harder when money is not available.

For-instance, it took Turkey from 1998 to 2007 to come to a decision, then first flight happened in 2009, introduction into armed forces in 2014.

Took Turkey 16 years and we are still not complete weapon system, and work will always continue to improve T-129.

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## araz

Combat-Master said:


> It's not an easy decision to make, and it's even harder when money is not available.
> 
> For-instance, it took Turkey from 1998 to 2007 to come to a decision, then first flight happened in 2009, introduction into armed forces in 2014.
> 
> Took Turkey 16 years and we are still not complete weapon system, and work will always continue to improve T-129.


A good post reflecting the difficulties with platform procurement. It is not without reason that PAA has again gone after a US platform.
A

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## -------

Tomorrow Pakistani interim president, Shahid Khaqan Abbasi will visit TAI facilities and be welcomed on-board T-129 for a test ride

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## cabatli_53

Have a nice flight with T-129 tomorrow !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

cabatli_53 said:


> Have a nice flight with T-129 tomorrow !



Send him on a solo one way trip... A corrupt Muppet...

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## Advocate Pakistan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Send him on a solo one way trip... A corrupt Muppet...



Too few T 129s at present.

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## waz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Send him on a solo one way trip... A corrupt Muppet...



Here's an idea, just before the flight; 






British help might be needed.

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## Muhammad Omar

Just sign the deal with that smile

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## cabatli_53

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921821046671634432

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## Ahmet Pasha

What is the translation of above tweets


cabatli_53 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921821046671634432

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## mingle

Great News after stream line of T129 we need a medium Heli like AW139 for all forces .All we need 20 to 25 hinds for COIN role .Zulus we get is good if not no worries T129 is match with any modern Heli .



Ahmet Pasha said:


> What is the translation of above tweets


Ahmet it would be big order for sure means Army dropped planes to induct chines Z10 and they not trust Yanks for AH1Z .I am impress with this Heli 's performance In Pakistan fit the bill .

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## Pax Ottomana

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What is the translation of above tweets



It says "we hope that you'll have a nice day".

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## sami_1

The best for Pakistan to go directly to Italy Why make the Turks an intermediary 

Turkey and Italy get rid of the A-129 / T-129


* Italian new generation assault helicopter AH-249 (ANALYSIS) *





*PUBLISHED: FRIDAY, 27 OCTOBER 2017, 16:58*

*Juliusz Sabak 
kontakt@defence24.pl*

*At the Combat Helicopters 2017 conference in Cracow, a representative of the Italian armed forces presented the concept of development of the AH-249A helicopter, which is expected to start replacing the AH-129D (AW129) Mangusta. The machine is developed by Leonardo Helicopters. In the new design, the AW149 propulsion system, which was offered in Poland in the multi-tasking helicopter program based on a common platform, will be used to accelerate the work. *

Lieutenant Colonel Claudio Orioles, Head of the Italian Army Aviation Logistics, presented the concept of the AH-249A escort and impact helicopter at the Combat Helicopters conference in Cracow. These engines will replace the currently used AH-129D Mangusta helicopters, which are the latest variant of the rotors. The first A129 serial model (since 2012 marked AH-129A) entered the armament of the Italian Army in 1990.

Leonardo Helicopters signed a research and development agreement with the National Armaments Directorate (NAD) in January 2017, prototype testing and the production of three pre-launch helicopters called NESS (New Exploration and Escort Helicopter). Last year, the Italian parliament's defense commission approved € 487 million in funding for a program to build a new combat helicopter for the armed forces.

To accelerate the development of the AH-249A to service from around 2020, the Leonardo Helicopters has decided to use the existing AW149 multi-purpose helicopter propulsion system and the AW129 modernization system. This is in line with the current trend of unification, launched by the Bell Helicopteres AH / UH-1 family (the so-called "H-1 family", which currently holds 85% of the common shares in the current AH-1Z Viper and UH-1Y Venom). A similar road, although it can be said that in the opposite direction than Italy, went to Turkey, because T-129 ATAK propulsion system was based T-635 multi-tasking helicopter.

The helicopter mass has been planned for over 7 tons, which puts the Italian design between a slightly lighter helicopter Airbus Helicopters Tiger with a maximum weight of about 6 tons and a slightly heavier Viper (class 8 tons). It will not compete with heavy tank destroyers like the AH-64E Apache, Mi-28 or Ka-52. The main purpose of AW-249 is to carry out escort and reconnaissance missions and fire support to land forces.

*Faster, longer, more*

Presented at the Cracow conference, the concept of the AH-249 helicopter development assumes much higher performance compared to the AH-129D. It is planned to increase the airborne time from 2 to 3 hours, cruising speed from 115 to 140 knots (from 213 to 259 km / h) and a ceiling of 15 thousand. up to 20 thousand Stop. The armament of the armament is to increase from 820 kg to not less than 1800 kg. Due to these requirements the launch mass of the new helicopter is expected to be much higher than for the AH-129D, which is less than 5 tonnes. The AH-249 is expected to weigh 7-8 tonnes with much greater dynamics and range of flight characteristics.




_Comparison of the performance of CH-47, NH90 and AH-129 with its future successor NESS (AH-249). It is clear how the Mangusta departs from newer machines in terms of flight duration (red color) and speed (green color). Graphics: Aviazione Dell 'Esercito_
Performance requirements result from the fact that the AH-129D is fully armed, much slower and can remain in the air shorter than the Italian army's multi-tasking and transport helicopters. This applies especially to NH90 and CH-47F Chinook machines. This situation makes it impossible to de facto effectively carry out the basic tasks of escort and helicopter support and reconnaissance. The AH-129D is not capable of interacting with these machines effectively as long as they operate at maximum cruising speed, and as you know, speed is one of the basic strengths of aeromobile formation.

However, the requirements of the Italian forces do not affect the performance alone. Much emphasis was placed on the machine's resistance to extreme conditions. The range of permissible temperatures has changed to a lower limit of -35 to -40 degrees Celsius, while the upper limit is still +50 degrees. Due to the lowering of the temperature, the possibility of action in case of slight icing is required. There is also a need to increase the protection of key components and ensure proper operation in high dust (sand, dust) and snow conditions and protection against seawater (salt environment).

*More to see, not to be seen*

The Italian army defined not only higher demands on performance and operating conditions, but also broadened the needs of the contemporary battlefield. The new reconnaissance and escort helicopter (defined as its task) is to have a wide range of opportunities for information gathering and exchange, as well as modern security solutions as well as effective detection and identification of hazards.

Among the desirable characteristics are, among others. Reduction of the AH-249 signature in the range of different detection means. The machine will have integrated exhaust gas temperature reduction systems (IR signature) and radar signature design and coating. The helicopter is also intended to be equipped with active jamming and self-defense systems and sensors enabling, for example, automatic determination of the direction from which the helicopter is being driven. Another issue is to protect the AH-249 against the effects of electronic combat and even hacking attempts.

In terms of data exchange, the new machine is expected to be able to offer broadband communications using Link16 and other standards. The machine is designed to use radio stations digitally encoded at different frequencies but also to connect to cellular networks. This provides the ability to transmit audio, video and data through fully encrypted communication channels. The AH-249 will also have the ability to interact with various types of unmanned aerial vehicles, both in terms of data exchange and drones management. Interestingly, among the mentioned bsl were the Predator, Reaper, Shadow 200 and Falco aircraft, but also the AW Hero unmanned helicopters and the "Polish" SW-4 Solo RUAS / OPH manufactured by PZL Świdnik.




_Front part of the hull AH-249. You can see the placement of the 20 mm parcel and the optoelectronic head and the cab layout with a single touch screen. Fig. Dell's Esercito_
With regard to flight safety and situational awareness, pilots are to be provided with a wide range of modern solutions that are designed not only to effectively target and accomplish tasks, but also to enhance ergonomics and safety. In addition to navigation systems and safety systems such as VOR-ILS, DME, TACAN, Doppler radar and radar altimeter and GPS / INS navigation, the machine is to have a data processing and integration system. They will be depicted on the main, widescreen multifunctional touch screen that occupies the place of the classic dashboard, HUD display and flicker displays. This applies, for example, to the application of so-called "extended reality", ie overlapping data from different sensors to increase awareness of the battlefield. This can, for example, Apply the image of the imager and the aiming system to what the pilot sees through the night vision or the waist screen. This is to enable the AH-249 to operate in all weather conditions at low altitudes, which is a key capability for this type of machine.

*Increased firepower, fewer casualties*

As far as combat capability is concerned, the AH-249 has, as shown above, a broad range of possibilities for acquiring information about potential targets. Arming and targeting systems are designed not only to combat air and ground targets, including tanks and armored vehicles, but also to provide high precision and wide range of armament. This is to limit the so-called "casualties" in case of actions such as in urban areas or asymmetric operations.

The AH-129D helicopter will be borrowed from the turret and armed with a 20 mm three-barrel gun. Instead, the ammunition supply system will be modified and its supply increased. Unfortunately, the Mangusta helicopter has also been repaired, which is a parcel installation just below the optoelectronic head, which is also located at the bow, in front of the cockpit. As a result of this vibration when shooting from a 20 mm parcel they are transferred to the head, which negatively affects both the effectiveness and the viability of these systems.




_Comparison of AH-129D and AH-249 (NESS). Fig. Dell's Esercito_
In addition to the AH-249, it is to be armed with a wide range of guided missiles and non-guided missiles, including anti-tank missiles and air-to-air missiles. The total weight of the armored gear is over 1800 kg, which is more than double that of the AH-129D. There are no specific types of rockets, but about 70mm guided missiles and non-guided missiles, laser-guided missiles and ground-to-air missiles to combat heavily defended targets beyond the opponent's field of vision.

The presentation of the Spike family (including the Spike NLOS) appeared in Krakow, which coincides with the current activities of the Italian forces, which integrated Spike missiles on the AH-129D helicopters. These machines can also carry the US TOW-2 and Hellfire missiles, which will be armed in the future with the AH-249, but are expected to be replaced by newer generations. At the ends of the wings, the new engine received additional air-to-air missiles. This means that by transferring 8 anti-tank missiles and two 70 mm rocket launchers, the AH-249 will be able to carry 2 short range missiles or 4 very short range missiles.

*NESS is more than a magnifying manga*

In terms of new wing construction, the Leonardo Helicopters decided to go the proven route, de facto enlarging the AW129 (AH-129) with the gun and the optoelectronic head in the bow, the tandem cockpit and the long narrow hull. On the sides of the hull will appear long sponsors, hosting, among others. larger fuel tanks, sensors and avionics.

The drive system is designed to provide much more power, both in the drive range and power sources for onboard installations, which will provide higher power APUs. If information about the use of engines and power transmission from the AW149 helicopter with a mass of 8.6 tonnes will be confirmed, the five-blade rotor and four-blade tail rotor will drive two US-based GE CT7-2E1 engines of 1490 kW (2000 hp) each. They will be equipped with an integrated exhaust gas dispersion system.




_Helicopter AH-249. Fig. Dell's Esercito_
The concept of the new machine is not particularly revolutionary, but the aim is to rapidly develop and introduce this machine. This is due to the depletion of the AH-129 upgrade capabilities and unsatisfactory performance, especially under very high or low temperatures and high altitudes. That is why the Italian army wants to have a prototype of a new machine by 2020 and five years later to introduce the first series to operational service.

It is worth comparing with the time it was needed to develop from the base helicopters such as Tiger or even AW129. A good example of this is the development of the AH-1J Cobra twin-engined helicopter, which was developed for the US Marines to increase the lifting capacity and safety of the single-engine version used by the Army.

It should be noted, however, that the very classic AH-249 aerodynamic system is being developed at a time when, at the same Combat Helicopters conference in Cracow, the single helicopter system had exhausted its development capabilities. The AW-249 will soon be decoded by the floating engine (like the V-280) or hybrid coaxial (like the SB-1 Defiant or S-97 Rider).

The key in the NESS (New Exploration and Escort Helicopter) program, which will result in the AH-249, is not so much the increase in lifting capacity and performance, but above all the creation of a modern machine capable of operating in digital C4 network systems and collaboration with machines such as unmanned. In this respect, this helicopter has the potential to be a completely new quality in the Italian armed forces. Time will tell whether it is an evolutionary change that provides the Italian with sufficient opportunities to carry out planned activities in the contemporary battlefield.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think Italy makes some helicopters and Turkey have their own deal and weapons on the T-129. We have business relations with both Italy and Turkey

The italian concept helcopter may not be ready , however T-129 has already passed all tests etc and is ready for export

However I am sure we will also get other items from Italy lot of possibilities exist with other cooperative areas

The Arrival of Augusta Westland 139 , is certainly helping bridge gaps in the Aviation Fleet

Reactions: Like Like:
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## -------

sami_1 said:


> The best for Pakistan to go directly to Italy Why make the Turks an intermediary
> 
> Turkey and Italy get rid of the A-129 / T-129
> 
> 
> * Italian new generation assault helicopter AH-249 (ANALYSIS) *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PUBLISHED: FRIDAY, 27 OCTOBER 2017, 16:58*
> 
> *Juliusz Sabak
> kontakt@defence24.pl*
> 
> *At the Combat Helicopters 2017 conference in Cracow, a representative of the Italian armed forces presented the concept of development of the AH-249A helicopter, which is expected to start replacing the AH-129D (AW129) Mangusta. The machine is developed by Leonardo Helicopters. In the new design, the AW149 propulsion system, which was offered in Poland in the multi-tasking helicopter program based on a common platform, will be used to accelerate the work. *
> 
> Lieutenant Colonel Claudio Orioles, Head of the Italian Army Aviation Logistics, presented the concept of the AH-249A escort and impact helicopter at the Combat Helicopters conference in Cracow. These engines will replace the currently used AH-129D Mangusta helicopters, which are the latest variant of the rotors. The first A129 serial model (since 2012 marked AH-129A) entered the armament of the Italian Army in 1990.
> 
> Leonardo Helicopters signed a research and development agreement with the National Armaments Directorate (NAD) in January 2017, prototype testing and the production of three pre-launch helicopters called NESS (New Exploration and Escort Helicopter). Last year, the Italian parliament's defense commission approved € 487 million in funding for a program to build a new combat helicopter for the armed forces.
> 
> To accelerate the development of the AH-249A to service from around 2020, the Leonardo Helicopters has decided to use the existing AW149 multi-purpose helicopter propulsion system and the AW129 modernization system. This is in line with the current trend of unification, launched by the Bell Helicopteres AH / UH-1 family (the so-called "H-1 family", which currently holds 85% of the common shares in the current AH-1Z Viper and UH-1Y Venom). A similar road, although it can be said that in the opposite direction than Italy, went to Turkey, because T-129 ATAK propulsion system was based T-635 multi-tasking helicopter.
> 
> The helicopter mass has been planned for over 7 tons, which puts the Italian design between a slightly lighter helicopter Airbus Helicopters Tiger with a maximum weight of about 6 tons and a slightly heavier Viper (class 8 tons). It will not compete with heavy tank destroyers like the AH-64E Apache, Mi-28 or Ka-52. The main purpose of AW-249 is to carry out escort and reconnaissance missions and fire support to land forces.
> 
> *Faster, longer, more*
> 
> Presented at the Cracow conference, the concept of the AH-249 helicopter development assumes much higher performance compared to the AH-129D. It is planned to increase the airborne time from 2 to 3 hours, cruising speed from 115 to 140 knots (from 213 to 259 km / h) and a ceiling of 15 thousand. up to 20 thousand Stop. The armament of the armament is to increase from 820 kg to not less than 1800 kg. Due to these requirements the launch mass of the new helicopter is expected to be much higher than for the AH-129D, which is less than 5 tonnes. The AH-249 is expected to weigh 7-8 tonnes with much greater dynamics and range of flight characteristics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Comparison of the performance of CH-47, NH90 and AH-129 with its future successor NESS (AH-249). It is clear how the Mangusta departs from newer machines in terms of flight duration (red color) and speed (green color). Graphics: Aviazione Dell 'Esercito_
> Performance requirements result from the fact that the AH-129D is fully armed, much slower and can remain in the air shorter than the Italian army's multi-tasking and transport helicopters. This applies especially to NH90 and CH-47F Chinook machines. This situation makes it impossible to de facto effectively carry out the basic tasks of escort and helicopter support and reconnaissance. The AH-129D is not capable of interacting with these machines effectively as long as they operate at maximum cruising speed, and as you know, speed is one of the basic strengths of aeromobile formation.
> 
> However, the requirements of the Italian forces do not affect the performance alone. Much emphasis was placed on the machine's resistance to extreme conditions. The range of permissible temperatures has changed to a lower limit of -35 to -40 degrees Celsius, while the upper limit is still +50 degrees. Due to the lowering of the temperature, the possibility of action in case of slight icing is required. There is also a need to increase the protection of key components and ensure proper operation in high dust (sand, dust) and snow conditions and protection against seawater (salt environment).
> 
> *More to see, not to be seen*
> 
> The Italian army defined not only higher demands on performance and operating conditions, but also broadened the needs of the contemporary battlefield. The new reconnaissance and escort helicopter (defined as its task) is to have a wide range of opportunities for information gathering and exchange, as well as modern security solutions as well as effective detection and identification of hazards.
> 
> Among the desirable characteristics are, among others. Reduction of the AH-249 signature in the range of different detection means. The machine will have integrated exhaust gas temperature reduction systems (IR signature) and radar signature design and coating. The helicopter is also intended to be equipped with active jamming and self-defense systems and sensors enabling, for example, automatic determination of the direction from which the helicopter is being driven. Another issue is to protect the AH-249 against the effects of electronic combat and even hacking attempts.
> 
> In terms of data exchange, the new machine is expected to be able to offer broadband communications using Link16 and other standards. The machine is designed to use radio stations digitally encoded at different frequencies but also to connect to cellular networks. This provides the ability to transmit audio, video and data through fully encrypted communication channels. The AH-249 will also have the ability to interact with various types of unmanned aerial vehicles, both in terms of data exchange and drones management. Interestingly, among the mentioned bsl were the Predator, Reaper, Shadow 200 and Falco aircraft, but also the AW Hero unmanned helicopters and the "Polish" SW-4 Solo RUAS / OPH manufactured by PZL Świdnik.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Front part of the hull AH-249. You can see the placement of the 20 mm parcel and the optoelectronic head and the cab layout with a single touch screen. Fig. Dell's Esercito_
> With regard to flight safety and situational awareness, pilots are to be provided with a wide range of modern solutions that are designed not only to effectively target and accomplish tasks, but also to enhance ergonomics and safety. In addition to navigation systems and safety systems such as VOR-ILS, DME, TACAN, Doppler radar and radar altimeter and GPS / INS navigation, the machine is to have a data processing and integration system. They will be depicted on the main, widescreen multifunctional touch screen that occupies the place of the classic dashboard, HUD display and flicker displays. This applies, for example, to the application of so-called "extended reality", ie overlapping data from different sensors to increase awareness of the battlefield. This can, for example, Apply the image of the imager and the aiming system to what the pilot sees through the night vision or the waist screen. This is to enable the AH-249 to operate in all weather conditions at low altitudes, which is a key capability for this type of machine.
> 
> *Increased firepower, fewer casualties*
> 
> As far as combat capability is concerned, the AH-249 has, as shown above, a broad range of possibilities for acquiring information about potential targets. Arming and targeting systems are designed not only to combat air and ground targets, including tanks and armored vehicles, but also to provide high precision and wide range of armament. This is to limit the so-called "casualties" in case of actions such as in urban areas or asymmetric operations.
> 
> The AH-129D helicopter will be borrowed from the turret and armed with a 20 mm three-barrel gun. Instead, the ammunition supply system will be modified and its supply increased. Unfortunately, the Mangusta helicopter has also been repaired, which is a parcel installation just below the optoelectronic head, which is also located at the bow, in front of the cockpit. As a result of this vibration when shooting from a 20 mm parcel they are transferred to the head, which negatively affects both the effectiveness and the viability of these systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Comparison of AH-129D and AH-249 (NESS). Fig. Dell's Esercito_
> In addition to the AH-249, it is to be armed with a wide range of guided missiles and non-guided missiles, including anti-tank missiles and air-to-air missiles. The total weight of the armored gear is over 1800 kg, which is more than double that of the AH-129D. There are no specific types of rockets, but about 70mm guided missiles and non-guided missiles, laser-guided missiles and ground-to-air missiles to combat heavily defended targets beyond the opponent's field of vision.
> 
> The presentation of the Spike family (including the Spike NLOS) appeared in Krakow, which coincides with the current activities of the Italian forces, which integrated Spike missiles on the AH-129D helicopters. These machines can also carry the US TOW-2 and Hellfire missiles, which will be armed in the future with the AH-249, but are expected to be replaced by newer generations. At the ends of the wings, the new engine received additional air-to-air missiles. This means that by transferring 8 anti-tank missiles and two 70 mm rocket launchers, the AH-249 will be able to carry 2 short range missiles or 4 very short range missiles.
> 
> *NESS is more than a magnifying manga*
> 
> In terms of new wing construction, the Leonardo Helicopters decided to go the proven route, de facto enlarging the AW129 (AH-129) with the gun and the optoelectronic head in the bow, the tandem cockpit and the long narrow hull. On the sides of the hull will appear long sponsors, hosting, among others. larger fuel tanks, sensors and avionics.
> 
> The drive system is designed to provide much more power, both in the drive range and power sources for onboard installations, which will provide higher power APUs. If information about the use of engines and power transmission from the AW149 helicopter with a mass of 8.6 tonnes will be confirmed, the five-blade rotor and four-blade tail rotor will drive two US-based GE CT7-2E1 engines of 1490 kW (2000 hp) each. They will be equipped with an integrated exhaust gas dispersion system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Helicopter AH-249. Fig. Dell's Esercito_
> The concept of the new machine is not particularly revolutionary, but the aim is to rapidly develop and introduce this machine. This is due to the depletion of the AH-129 upgrade capabilities and unsatisfactory performance, especially under very high or low temperatures and high altitudes. That is why the Italian army wants to have a prototype of a new machine by 2020 and five years later to introduce the first series to operational service.
> 
> It is worth comparing with the time it was needed to develop from the base helicopters such as Tiger or even AW129. A good example of this is the development of the AH-1J Cobra twin-engined helicopter, which was developed for the US Marines to increase the lifting capacity and safety of the single-engine version used by the Army.
> 
> It should be noted, however, that the very classic AH-249 aerodynamic system is being developed at a time when, at the same Combat Helicopters conference in Cracow, the single helicopter system had exhausted its development capabilities. The AW-249 will soon be decoded by the floating engine (like the V-280) or hybrid coaxial (like the SB-1 Defiant or S-97 Rider).
> 
> The key in the NESS (New Exploration and Escort Helicopter) program, which will result in the AH-249, is not so much the increase in lifting capacity and performance, but above all the creation of a modern machine capable of operating in digital C4 network systems and collaboration with machines such as unmanned. In this respect, this helicopter has the potential to be a completely new quality in the Italian armed forces. Time will tell whether it is an evolutionary change that provides the Italian with sufficient opportunities to carry out planned activities in the contemporary battlefield.



TAI ATAK-II





https://www.tai.com.tr/tr/proje/atak-2-taarruz-helikopteri-projesi
10ton Helicopted @Quwa





Will have rear ramp loading and unloading, 20+ Personnel carrying capacity, 170 knot speed and 1000km range

https://www.tai.com.tr/tr/proje/10-ton-sinifi-genel-maksat-helikopteri

Also notice, future defensive suite for Helicopters will have DIRCM against IR seeking anti-air missiles.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> TAI ATAK-II
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tai.com.tr/tr/proje/atak-2-taarruz-helikopteri-projesi
> 10ton Helicopted @Quwa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will have rear ramp loading and unloading, 20+ Personnel carrying capacity, 170 knot speed and 1000km range
> 
> https://www.tai.com.tr/tr/proje/10-ton-sinifi-genel-maksat-helikopteri
> 
> Also notice, future defensive suite for Helicopters will have DIRCM against IR seeking anti-air missiles.


I hope the T129 ATAK MoU has a section for PAC-TAI JV in the 10-ton Gen Purpose Heli and ATAK-2.

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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I hope the T129 ATAK MoU has a section for PAC-TAI JV in the 10-ton Gen Purpose Heli and ATAK-2.



Hope so too, I don't think Turkey can sustain such (6 aircrafts, 4 satellite developments) large projects on her own without some JV.. I'm worried we are getting in over our heads..


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> Hope so too, I don't think Turkey can sustain such (6 aircrafts, 4 satellite developments) large projects on her own without some JV.. I'm worried we are getting in over our heads..


Pakistan explicitly said it wants an aviation industry (Kamra Aviation City). It'd be strange to say such things and then avoid collaborative ventures that could result in both the technology and economic opportunities.

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## Path-Finder

At first glance I thought it was a Mi28 it shares a resemblance with the flying tank.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> At first glance I thought it was a Mi28 it shares a resemblance with the flying tank.


Seems that a lot of the additional ton went into armour/protection.

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## -------



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## Ahmet Pasha

That looks so much like the nh-90


Combat-Master said:


>


----------



## BATMAN

sami_1 said:


> The best for Pakistan to go directly to Italy Why make the Turks an intermediary
> 
> Turkey and Italy get rid of the A-129 / T-129
> 
> 
> * Italian new generation assault helicopter AH-249 (ANALYSIS) *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PUBLISHED: FRIDAY, 27 OCTOBER 2017, 16:58*
> 
> *Juliusz Sabak
> kontakt@defence24.pl*
> 
> *At the Combat Helicopters 2017 conference in Cracow, a representative of the Italian armed forces presented the concept of development of the AH-249A helicopter, which is expected to start replacing the AH-129D (AW129) Mangusta. The machine is developed by Leonardo Helicopters. In the new design, the AW149 propulsion system, which was offered in Poland in the multi-tasking helicopter program based on a common platform, will be used to accelerate the work. *
> 
> Lieutenant Colonel Claudio Orioles, Head of the Italian Army Aviation Logistics, presented the concept of the AH-249A escort and impact helicopter at the Combat Helicopters conference in Cracow. These engines will replace the currently used AH-129D Mangusta helicopters, which are the latest variant of the rotors. The first A129 serial model (since 2012 marked AH-129A) entered the armament of the Italian Army in 1990.
> 
> Leonardo Helicopters signed a research and development agreement with the National Armaments Directorate (NAD) in January 2017, prototype testing and the production of three pre-launch helicopters called NESS (New Exploration and Escort Helicopter). Last year, the Italian parliament's defense commission approved € 487 million in funding for a program to build a new combat helicopter for the armed forces.
> 
> To accelerate the development of the AH-249A to service from around 2020, the Leonardo Helicopters has decided to use the existing AW149 multi-purpose helicopter propulsion system and the AW129 modernization system. This is in line with the current trend of unification, launched by the Bell Helicopteres AH / UH-1 family (the so-called "H-1 family", which currently holds 85% of the common shares in the current AH-1Z Viper and UH-1Y Venom). A similar road, although it can be said that in the opposite direction than Italy, went to Turkey, because T-129 ATAK propulsion system was based T-635 multi-tasking helicopter.
> 
> The helicopter mass has been planned for over 7 tons, which puts the Italian design between a slightly lighter helicopter Airbus Helicopters Tiger with a maximum weight of about 6 tons and a slightly heavier Viper (class 8 tons). It will not compete with heavy tank destroyers like the AH-64E Apache, Mi-28 or Ka-52. The main purpose of AW-249 is to carry out escort and reconnaissance missions and fire support to land forces.
> 
> *Faster, longer, more*
> 
> Presented at the Cracow conference, the concept of the AH-249 helicopter development assumes much higher performance compared to the AH-129D. It is planned to increase the airborne time from 2 to 3 hours, cruising speed from 115 to 140 knots (from 213 to 259 km / h) and a ceiling of 15 thousand. up to 20 thousand Stop. The armament of the armament is to increase from 820 kg to not less than 1800 kg. Due to these requirements the launch mass of the new helicopter is expected to be much higher than for the AH-129D, which is less than 5 tonnes. The AH-249 is expected to weigh 7-8 tonnes with much greater dynamics and range of flight characteristics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Comparison of the performance of CH-47, NH90 and AH-129 with its future successor NESS (AH-249). It is clear how the Mangusta departs from newer machines in terms of flight duration (red color) and speed (green color). Graphics: Aviazione Dell 'Esercito_
> Performance requirements result from the fact that the AH-129D is fully armed, much slower and can remain in the air shorter than the Italian army's multi-tasking and transport helicopters. This applies especially to NH90 and CH-47F Chinook machines. This situation makes it impossible to de facto effectively carry out the basic tasks of escort and helicopter support and reconnaissance. The AH-129D is not capable of interacting with these machines effectively as long as they operate at maximum cruising speed, and as you know, speed is one of the basic strengths of aeromobile formation.
> 
> However, the requirements of the Italian forces do not affect the performance alone. Much emphasis was placed on the machine's resistance to extreme conditions. The range of permissible temperatures has changed to a lower limit of -35 to -40 degrees Celsius, while the upper limit is still +50 degrees. Due to the lowering of the temperature, the possibility of action in case of slight icing is required. There is also a need to increase the protection of key components and ensure proper operation in high dust (sand, dust) and snow conditions and protection against seawater (salt environment).
> 
> *More to see, not to be seen*
> 
> The Italian army defined not only higher demands on performance and operating conditions, but also broadened the needs of the contemporary battlefield. The new reconnaissance and escort helicopter (defined as its task) is to have a wide range of opportunities for information gathering and exchange, as well as modern security solutions as well as effective detection and identification of hazards.
> 
> Among the desirable characteristics are, among others. Reduction of the AH-249 signature in the range of different detection means. The machine will have integrated exhaust gas temperature reduction systems (IR signature) and radar signature design and coating. The helicopter is also intended to be equipped with active jamming and self-defense systems and sensors enabling, for example, automatic determination of the direction from which the helicopter is being driven. Another issue is to protect the AH-249 against the effects of electronic combat and even hacking attempts.
> 
> In terms of data exchange, the new machine is expected to be able to offer broadband communications using Link16 and other standards. The machine is designed to use radio stations digitally encoded at different frequencies but also to connect to cellular networks. This provides the ability to transmit audio, video and data through fully encrypted communication channels. The AH-249 will also have the ability to interact with various types of unmanned aerial vehicles, both in terms of data exchange and drones management. Interestingly, among the mentioned bsl were the Predator, Reaper, Shadow 200 and Falco aircraft, but also the AW Hero unmanned helicopters and the "Polish" SW-4 Solo RUAS / OPH manufactured by PZL Świdnik.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Front part of the hull AH-249. You can see the placement of the 20 mm parcel and the optoelectronic head and the cab layout with a single touch screen. Fig. Dell's Esercito_
> With regard to flight safety and situational awareness, pilots are to be provided with a wide range of modern solutions that are designed not only to effectively target and accomplish tasks, but also to enhance ergonomics and safety. In addition to navigation systems and safety systems such as VOR-ILS, DME, TACAN, Doppler radar and radar altimeter and GPS / INS navigation, the machine is to have a data processing and integration system. They will be depicted on the main, widescreen multifunctional touch screen that occupies the place of the classic dashboard, HUD display and flicker displays. This applies, for example, to the application of so-called "extended reality", ie overlapping data from different sensors to increase awareness of the battlefield. This can, for example, Apply the image of the imager and the aiming system to what the pilot sees through the night vision or the waist screen. This is to enable the AH-249 to operate in all weather conditions at low altitudes, which is a key capability for this type of machine.
> 
> *Increased firepower, fewer casualties*
> 
> As far as combat capability is concerned, the AH-249 has, as shown above, a broad range of possibilities for acquiring information about potential targets. Arming and targeting systems are designed not only to combat air and ground targets, including tanks and armored vehicles, but also to provide high precision and wide range of armament. This is to limit the so-called "casualties" in case of actions such as in urban areas or asymmetric operations.
> 
> The AH-129D helicopter will be borrowed from the turret and armed with a 20 mm three-barrel gun. Instead, the ammunition supply system will be modified and its supply increased. Unfortunately, the Mangusta helicopter has also been repaired, which is a parcel installation just below the optoelectronic head, which is also located at the bow, in front of the cockpit. As a result of this vibration when shooting from a 20 mm parcel they are transferred to the head, which negatively affects both the effectiveness and the viability of these systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Comparison of AH-129D and AH-249 (NESS). Fig. Dell's Esercito_
> In addition to the AH-249, it is to be armed with a wide range of guided missiles and non-guided missiles, including anti-tank missiles and air-to-air missiles. The total weight of the armored gear is over 1800 kg, which is more than double that of the AH-129D. There are no specific types of rockets, but about 70mm guided missiles and non-guided missiles, laser-guided missiles and ground-to-air missiles to combat heavily defended targets beyond the opponent's field of vision.
> 
> The presentation of the Spike family (including the Spike NLOS) appeared in Krakow, which coincides with the current activities of the Italian forces, which integrated Spike missiles on the AH-129D helicopters. These machines can also carry the US TOW-2 and Hellfire missiles, which will be armed in the future with the AH-249, but are expected to be replaced by newer generations. At the ends of the wings, the new engine received additional air-to-air missiles. This means that by transferring 8 anti-tank missiles and two 70 mm rocket launchers, the AH-249 will be able to carry 2 short range missiles or 4 very short range missiles.
> 
> *NESS is more than a magnifying manga*
> 
> In terms of new wing construction, the Leonardo Helicopters decided to go the proven route, de facto enlarging the AW129 (AH-129) with the gun and the optoelectronic head in the bow, the tandem cockpit and the long narrow hull. On the sides of the hull will appear long sponsors, hosting, among others. larger fuel tanks, sensors and avionics.
> 
> The drive system is designed to provide much more power, both in the drive range and power sources for onboard installations, which will provide higher power APUs. If information about the use of engines and power transmission from the AW149 helicopter with a mass of 8.6 tonnes will be confirmed, the five-blade rotor and four-blade tail rotor will drive two US-based GE CT7-2E1 engines of 1490 kW (2000 hp) each. They will be equipped with an integrated exhaust gas dispersion system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Helicopter AH-249. Fig. Dell's Esercito_
> The concept of the new machine is not particularly revolutionary, but the aim is to rapidly develop and introduce this machine. This is due to the depletion of the AH-129 upgrade capabilities and unsatisfactory performance, especially under very high or low temperatures and high altitudes. That is why the Italian army wants to have a prototype of a new machine by 2020 and five years later to introduce the first series to operational service.
> 
> It is worth comparing with the time it was needed to develop from the base helicopters such as Tiger or even AW129. A good example of this is the development of the AH-1J Cobra twin-engined helicopter, which was developed for the US Marines to increase the lifting capacity and safety of the single-engine version used by the Army.
> 
> It should be noted, however, that the very classic AH-249 aerodynamic system is being developed at a time when, at the same Combat Helicopters conference in Cracow, the single helicopter system had exhausted its development capabilities. The AW-249 will soon be decoded by the floating engine (like the V-280) or hybrid coaxial (like the SB-1 Defiant or S-97 Rider).
> 
> The key in the NESS (New Exploration and Escort Helicopter) program, which will result in the AH-249, is not so much the increase in lifting capacity and performance, but above all the creation of a modern machine capable of operating in digital C4 network systems and collaboration with machines such as unmanned. In this respect, this helicopter has the potential to be a completely new quality in the Italian armed forces. Time will tell whether it is an evolutionary change that provides the Italian with sufficient opportunities to carry out planned activities in the contemporary battlefield.



if you like we'll buy TATA nano instead!


----------



## -------

Ahmet Pasha said:


> That looks so much like the nh-90



I liken it to AW101 myself


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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah they both are quite similar in appearances


Combat-Master said:


> I liken it to AW101 myself


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## JPMM

Great Shoper!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Awan68

*

*




Air Chief visits Azerbaijan; Assures to deliver Super Mushshak aircraft
Home >> News Section >> Manufacturing T 129S Chopper parts: Pakistan seeks $1.5b credit line from Turkey
*Manufacturing T 129S Chopper parts: Pakistan seeks $1.5b credit line from Turkey*




October 30, 2017 News SectionLeave a comment 688 Views


ISLAMABAD: A credit line of $1.5 billion from the Turkish government for manufacturing parts of T129 Turkish attack helicopters in Pakistan was a key attraction for Pakistani negotiators in recent days in sealing the crucial deal.

Pakistan has requested the financial arrangement from Turkey for manufacturing spare parts of the T129s choppers and the Turkish government is working to allocate $1.5 billion in credit , sources said.

The Pakistan Army has selected the T129 attack helicopters to replace its aging AH-1F/S Cobra attack helicopters and to complement the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper. Besides exploring the credit to back the deal, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has also offered Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) parts manufacturing work for the T129 choppers.

According to the sources, Prime Minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi during his recent visit to Turkey , where he participated in the D-8 conference, interacted with senior TAI officials and pushed the process to finalize the deal, the sources said.

According to the sources, negotiations with the Turkish authorities have entered the final phase. In 2016, the Pakistan Army evaluated the T129 and the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation Z-10 to complement the Bell Helicopter AH-1Z Viper.

Pakistan was overwhelmed by the T129’s hot-and-high performance and ferry range. Besides integrating PAC into the T129 supply channel (for spare parts), the programme could also lead to bilateral collaboration in avionics, optronics and munitions development.

According to the sources, if the deal materializes, the Pakistan Army, the Pakistan Navy and the Pakistan Air Force would use the helicopters to meet its growing needs. On the other hand, Pakistan has a signed a deal to sell its Super Mushak trainer aircraft to Turkey.






Army aviation ofcourse and Pak navy marines yes but what use would the airforce put these helis to??, @Windjammer

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Mughal-Prince

JPMM said:


> Great Shoper!


Thats Marlin


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## Thorough Pro

For Pakistan, Turkish T-129 would come with Russian engines, that's why the long delay.


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## Ahmet Pasha

What???????? Please dnt tell me that u pulled this stuff out of ur magic hat 


Thorough Pro said:


> For Pakistan, Turkish T-129 would come with Russian engines, that's why the long delay.

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## Awan68

Thorough Pro said:


> For Pakistan, Turkish T-129 would come with Russian engines, that's why the long delay.


that would cancell out all the high altitude, high low temp durability that made us choose atak in the first place..

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## Thorough Pro

Why?



Awan68 said:


> that would cancell out all the high altitude, high low temp durability that made us choose atak in the first place..



Yes, but I don't call it a hat 



Ahmet Pasha said:


> What???????? Please dnt tell me that u pulled this stuff out of ur magic hat


----------



## Awan68

Thorough Pro said:


> Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I don't call it a hat


a new engine means new trials....we tried it out with this engine...


----------



## -------

Operations with T-129 continues

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## princefaisal

Thorough Pro said:


> For Pakistan, Turkish T-129 would come with Russian engines, that's why the long delay.


Other options could be *Pratt & Whitney PT6C - 67C engines or WZ-16 engines*

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## Thorough Pro

T-129 has not yet come to Pakistan because it has a US engine, how does Pratt & Whitney help?



princefaisal said:


> Other options could be *Pratt & Whitney PT6C - 67C engines or WZ-16 engines*

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## Zarvan

By the way why we haven't seen any T-129 picture with all 8 UMTAS Missiles fitted on it and also Rockets

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## Gryphon

30 helicopters for 1.5 billion USD? 

Seems PML-N folks are getting lots of commission. They appear more desperate to get the deal through.

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## PDF

Gryphon said:


> 30 helicopters for 1.5 billion USD?
> 
> Seems PML-N folks are getting lots of commission. They appear more desperate to get the deal through.


saary corruption tou PMLN kerti hai. Fauj tou mulk ke khazane ki hifazat kerti hai. Rodda company arms heist was also done by PMLN I guess.

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## Imran Khan

now i am too late man bring any of them but buy new choppers

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## Ahmet Pasha

Its not just the birds. Its also the support system for those birds and co production too.


Gryphon said:


> 30 helicopters for 1.5 billion USD?
> 
> Seems PML-N folks are getting lots of commission. They appear more desperate to get the deal through.

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## Zarvan

Combat-Master said:


> It's not an easy decision to make, and it's even harder when money is not available.
> 
> For-instance, it took Turkey from 1998 to 2007 to come to a decision, then first flight happened in 2009, introduction into armed forces in 2014.
> 
> Took Turkey 16 years and we are still not complete weapon system, and work will always continue to improve T-129.


Your company has started to work on T-130 and you are already producing T-129 so I think in next two years we can see first T-130.

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## Mick

Thorough Pro said:


> For Pakistan, Turkish T-129 would come with Russian engines, that's why the long delay.


Sorry, but, who shoud do the integration work for the new engines?

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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> Your company has started to work on T-130 and you are already producing T-129 so I think in next two years we can see first T-130.



It is planned domestic turboshaft and transmission units to be used on Atak-2 so Prototype and serial production is not solely dependant on succesfull development of fuselage but power units of helicopter. Atak-2 will be one of the strongest marketing tool of Turkish industry that no country will have a saying, If we consider the national contribution of domestic subsystems to be integrated in Atak-2.

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> It is planned domestic turboshaft and transmission units to be used on Atak-2 so Prototype and serial production is not solely dependant on succesfull development of fuselage but power units of helicopter. Atak-2 will be one of the strongest marketing tool of Turkish industry that no country will have a saying, If we consider the national contribution of domestic subsystems to be integrated in Atak-2.


Well if you are going to come up with local engine than it can take time or you may get luck soon but let see

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> Your company has started to work on T-130 and you are already producing T-129 so I think in next two years we can see first T-130.


Sheikh Zarvi.
Yaar please look at the time lines. It is not possible and will take +5 yrs and 3-4 minimum. A redesign with change of engine and other equipment will need testing and ratherthan the platform it is that which takes time.
S

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## Zarvan

araz said:


> Sheikh Zarvi.
> Yaar please look at the time lines. It is not possible and will take +5 yrs and 3-4 minimum. A redesign with change of engine and other equipment will need testing and ratherthan the platform it is that which takes time.
> S


I thought they are buying the engine which is available in the market but it seem they are going to make a new one and yes that would take time and I hardly doubt that the design of helicopter will be different. Main delay will be due to new engine. And I said first prototype can come in two years and even than I didn't knew about the new engine

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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> I thought they are buying the engine which is available in the market but it seem they are going to make a new one and yes that would take time and I hardly doubt the design of helicopter will not be that different. Main delay will be due to new engine. And I said first prototype can come in two years and even than I didn't knew about the new engine




Here is the design of Atak-2 with lots of changes/additions on size, ew, dircm, maingun...etc with increased payload and MTOW capacity.







Domestic transmission will start flying with T-625 utility helo project in 2018 because both helicopter (T-625 and Atak-2) will use same domestic engine and transmission.

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## Muhammad Omar

So is Pakistan Army gonna wait for few more years for ATAK-2???

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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> So is Pakistan Army gonna wait for few more years for ATAK-2???


No I doubt that but our requirement is much bigger most likely more than 100 attack helicopters so most likely we would order 30 or more T-129 and after that wait for T-130

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> No I doubt that but our requirement is much bigger most likely more than 100 attack helicopters so most likely we would order 30 or more T-129 and after that wait for T-130



how is our requirement more than 100 gunships?

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> how is our requirement more than 100 gunships?


The area where will have to fight the size of enemy we can't afford to have only 60 attack helicopters. Specially when India will bring Air Defense also. We need 100 + dedicated attack helicopters to operate from Karachi up to Himalayas.

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> The area where will have to fight the size of enemy we can't afford to have only 60 attack helicopters. Specially when India will bring Air Defense also. We need 100 + dedicated attack helicopters to operate from Karachi up to Himalayas.



100+ attack helicopters is an over kill. 

Gunships were first bought as anti-tank platform to stop an armoured thrust in its tracks. They were deployed in Multan so they can either be switched towards Punjab near Sialkot or Kasur and otherwise towards the closer desert areas ranging from Bahawalpur to Badin.

It iss easier for gunships to operate in Punjab regions than the desert because of natural cover like trees etc. Flying very low and using TOW's to take out enemy MBT's from a distance of 3000-4000m. Still, in Punjab there are lots of natural obstacles that can slow down enemy's armour advance.

It becomes harder in the desert region with no natural obstacle with the exception of sand dunes which are widely scattered but provides better visibility. During 1965 and 1971, the desert area wasnt given much importance. After Exercise/Operation Brass Tracks by IA, the desert region was deemed important and was found difficult to defend by PA. Regarding IA AD assets, ZSU-23 Shilka was the main AD weapon for accompanying IA armoured forces in the past, which was not such a big threat to AH-1 operated by PA. Now with induction of Tunguska and other missile carrying AD system, the threat has enlarged. In response, PA has ordered advanced Gunships like AH-1Z, not necessarily increased numbers but improved technology. It doesnt mean that AH-1F are rendered useless now as in a Gunship Vs AD scenario, it comes down to planning, information/recon, tactics, terrain, strategy etc. With modern UAV's and armed UCAV's, the Gunships have found a capable support against AD. 

There is no MBT threat in the mountain regions of Himalayas, considering that PA got AH-1 primarily for anti-tank role. The requirement in mountains is for transport helicopters, all categories, light to heavy. If air support is required, it can be provided by light armed recon helicopters too, armed with 12.7mm or mini gun or Hydra rockets. The heavy firepower in mountains is provided by in-direct fire like artillery, mortar etc. A gunship doesn't use indirect weapon system but LOS system mostly. Its is easier for a gunship to get ambushed by enemy AD on peaks. 

In WOT, the AH-1 was called in with Hydra rockets along with MBT's for COIN ops to minimise casualties so the role of gunship changed here, however Gunships are always seen flying with armoured formations in exercises, not necessarily in exercises involving only infantry formations, which means that against IA the role of AH-1 has not changed.

The 51 AH-1 F/S that PA operates are actually more than enough to counter an IA Armoured Corps thrust. Hypothetically, carrying 8 TOW each, combined they can target roughly 350-400 Armoured vehicles if all used in one scenario. Losing 1/3 of force out of 1000+ armoured vehicles, the IA offensive will ground to a halt. Even if up to 75%(37-40) of AH-1F/S are lost in this action, the job is done already. IA doesn't have resources to start an armoured Corps sized thrust at a new sector especially in Punjab region and the PA ground Anti-tank systems and modern AH-1Z/UCAV's have not been considered in scenario. Although, the reality can vary but role of Gunship will be similar. its just to give an idea of the functionality of a Gunship in PA. 

The issue which can arise is the weapon, TOW. Just like Baktar-Shikan, it keeps the operator engaged in guiding the missile till the target is hit and Gunship is kept hovering, remaining at one place in air during all this procedure. Although upgraded with Night capability, it still lacks a MmW radar and modern ECM suite.

The solution is not really numbers but a modern Gunship with advanced ATGM system like Hellfire-II or HJ-10 or UMTAS, fire and forget missiles and advanced sensors like HMD, MmW radar, improved FCS as well as ECM systems, which the current AH-1F lacks. A Gunship which can control UAV's is also very valuable, the AH-64D and later versions have this capability. 

The numbers can still be kept same around 50-65 Gunships, considering that older AH-1F/S are retired and with newer Gunships capabilities will increase many fold. I think the new Gunships are being acquired to retire older systems. The money can be spent to buy more MRAP's or advanced MBT's like Oplot as a stop gap.

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## khanasifm

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Its not just the birds. Its also the support system for those birds and co production too.



15 Zulu were for 900 million to billion along with weapons and training 

30 for 1.5 along with tech transfer and parts manufacturing ?? 

Cheaper then 12 Zulu’s comparison

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## khanasifm

Looks like for desert and planes air power is cheaper then having large force to defend

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> 100+ attack helicopters is an over kill.
> 
> Gunships were first bought as anti-tank platform to stop an armoured thrust in its tracks. They were deployed in Multan so they can either be switched towards Punjab near Sialkot or Kasur and otherwise towards the closer desert areas ranging from Bahawalpur to Badin.
> 
> It iss easier for gunships to operate in Punjab regions than the desert because of natural cover like trees etc. Flying very low and using TOW's to take out enemy MBT's from a distance of 3000-4000m. Still, in Punjab there are lots of natural obstacles that can slow down enemy's armour advance.
> 
> It becomes harder in the desert region with no natural obstacle with the exception of sand dunes which are widely scattered but provides better visibility. During 1965 and 1971, the desert area wasnt given much importance. After Exercise/Operation Brass Tracks by IA, the desert region was deemed important and was found difficult to defend by PA. Regarding IA AD assets, ZSU-23 Shilka was the main AD weapon for accompanying IA armoured forces in the past, which was not such a big threat to AH-1 operated by PA. Now with induction of Tunguska and other missile carrying AD system, the threat has enlarged. In response, PA has ordered advanced Gunships like AH-1Z, not necessarily increased numbers but improved technology. It doesnt mean that AH-1F are rendered useless now as in a Gunship Vs AD scenario, it comes down to planning, information/recon, tactics, terrain, strategy etc. With modern UAV's and armed UCAV's, the Gunships have found a capable support against AD.
> 
> There is no MBT threat in the mountain regions of Himalayas, considering that PA got AH-1 primarily for anti-tank role. The requirement in mountains is for transport helicopters, all categories, light to heavy. If air support is required, it can be provided by light armed recon helicopters too, armed with 12.7mm or mini gun or Hydra rockets. The heavy firepower in mountains is provided by in-direct fire like artillery, mortar etc. A gunship doesn't use indirect weapon system but LOS system mostly. Its is easier for a gunship to get ambushed by enemy AD on peaks.
> 
> In WOT, the AH-1 was called in with Hydra rockets along with MBT's for COIN ops to minimise casualties so the role of gunship changed here, however Gunships are always seen flying with armoured formations in exercises, not necessarily in exercises involving only infantry formations, which means that against IA the role of AH-1 has not changed.
> 
> The 51 AH-1 F/S that PA operates are actually more than enough to counter an IA Armoured Corps thrust. Hypothetically, carrying 8 TOW each, combined they can target roughly 350-400 Armoured vehicles if all used in one scenario. Losing 1/3 of force out of 1000+ armoured vehicles, the IA offensive will ground to a halt. Even if up to 75%(37-40) of AH-1F/S are lost in this action, the job is done already. IA doesn't have resources to start an armoured Corps sized thrust at a new sector especially in Punjab region and the PA ground Anti-tank systems and modern AH-1Z/UCAV's have not been considered in scenario. Although, the reality can vary but role of Gunship will be similar. its just to give an idea of the functionality of a Gunship in PA.
> 
> The issue which can arise is the weapon, TOW. Just like Baktar-Shikan, it keeps the operator engaged in guiding the missile till the target is hit and Gunship is kept hovering, remaining at one place in air during all this procedure. Although upgraded with Night capability, it still lacks a MmW radar and modern ECM suite.
> 
> The solution is not really numbers but a modern Gunship with advanced ATGM system like Hellfire-II or HJ-10 or UMTAS, fire and forget missiles and advanced sensors like HMD, MmW radar, improved FCS as well as ECM systems, which the current AH-1F lacks. A Gunship which can control UAV's is also very valuable, the AH-64D and later versions have this capability.
> 
> The numbers can still be kept same around 50-65 Gunships, considering that older AH-1F/S are retired and with newer Gunships capabilities will increase many fold. I think the new Gunships are being acquired to retire older systems. The money can be spent to buy more MRAP's or advanced MBT's like Oplot as a stop gap.


No 100 + helicopters is in fact minimum requirement Janab. Not having them will kill us for sure. Yes we need MRAP and Tanks but still attack helicopters will be needed specially when our adversary will bring at least few hundred as they have both local and foreign to bring

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> No 100 + helicopters is in fact minimum requirement Janab. Not having them will kill us for sure. Yes we need MRAP and Tanks but still attack helicopters will be needed specially when our adversary will bring at least few hundred as they have both local and foreign to bring


Can you justify the requirement instead of just saying that India has more helicopters in numbers or AD systems will be brought for war?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well 100 Gunship , let me clearify not just Helicopters. There is a major difference between two from strategic usage on battle field.

Why is the 100 Gunships justified , well we got 4-5 provinces, lets take 4 figure , so by that account each province will be assigned 25 gunships

100 Gunships and we got 1 Million troops to support , you can clearly see what is the ratio difference

25 : 1,000,00

Realistically we need to protect the borders with Gunships , and also we need the Gunships for active protection of Military Assets and Troops

In ideal circumstances , we need to aim for 200-250 Gunships


50-80 for Border Patrol (Military Rangers)
100-150 designated for Military Establishment
50 for Navy/Airforce

Assumption here is we are dumping the older machines from 70's
Example 

*Aérospatiale Alouette III*
*Cobra*

We have had this operational Gap since 1980's

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> Can you justify the requirement instead of just saying that India has more helicopters in numbers or AD systems will be brought for war?


Your Army alone is 660000 you have to face India with a Million Army do you really think having 60 attack helicopters will be enough. They won't be even close.

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> Your Army alone is 660000 you have to face India with a Million Army do you really think having 60 attack helicopters will be enough. They won't be even close.


With your logic, you need 4000 MBT, 9000 artillery pieces, 6000 AD system and 8000 APC. When was the last time, PA had more troops in total than IA, there will always be a significant difference in numbers thats why strategy, tactics, training and experience is utilised. 

In real world, in private sector even, resources are always scarce and you have to do the best with available resources. You just cant shut your senses and say that XYZ number is the requirement when you cant even justify it. Also PA goes diversity of weapons because one type of conventional weapon cannot help you win a war. In anti-tank role, its not just gunships, there are ATGM, UCAV's, MBT etc

Yes i think that 60 Gunships are good enough. Transport and cargo helicopters are never enough as the requirement for swift transport is very high, especially in northern areas as well as western border. Both areas have high casualty rate when compared to other parts of Pakistan. There is a major requirement of atleast 6-12 heavy lift helicopters, the biggest transport heli PA has is Mi-17 which is medium lift. 

PA needs advanced artillery systems (towed more than SP, look at the inventory), MRAPs, UCAV's, advanced MBT's, medium alt/range mobile SAM's, at least an airborne/air assault brigade. PA armoured formations are smaller in number of MBT's than IA armoured formations. There are many other requirements that you know better than me as you want best of everything for PA. I can justify the numbers or equipment which i think PA needs but im waiting for your response else than general statements.

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> With your logic, you need 4000 MBT, 9000 artillery pieces, 6000 AD system and 8000 APC. When was the last time, PA had more troops in total than IA, there will always be a significant difference in numbers thats why strategy, tactics, training and experience is utilised.
> 
> In real world, in private sector even, resources are always scarce and you have to do the best with available resources. You just cant shut your senses and say that XYZ number is the requirement when you cant even justify it. Also PA goes diversity of weapons because one type of conventional weapon cannot help you win a war. In anti-tank role, its not just gunships, there are ATGM, UCAV's, MBT etc
> 
> Yes i think that 60 Gunships are good enough. Transport and cargo helicopters are never enough as the requirement for swift transport is very high, especially in northern areas as well as western border. Both areas have high casualty rate when compared to other parts of Pakistan. There is a major requirement of atleast 6-12 heavy lift helicopters, the biggest transport heli PA has is Mi-17 which is medium lift.
> 
> PA needs advanced artillery systems (towed more than SP, look at the inventory), MRAPs, UCAV's, advanced MBT's, medium alt/range mobile SAM's, at least an airborne/air assault brigade. PA armoured formations are smaller in number of MBT's than IA armoured formations. There are many other requirements that you know better than me as you want best of everything for PA. I can justify the numbers or equipment which i think PA needs but im waiting for your response else than general statements.



Yes our requirement is around 3000 Tanks even more and yes we need 120 Helicopters at least. We have to use them Siachin to Karachi with enemy which is much bigger and yes we need Tanks and and I am biggest supporter of MRAP and I am more angry than you on we not going for MRAP but still 120 Attack Helicopter is the minimum requirement which we have. 60 Attack are not even close to being good enough not even close.

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## -------

Muhammad Omar said:


> So is Pakistan Army gonna wait for few more years for ATAK-2???



ATAK-2 is being developed for expected naval requirements, the increased weight and same engine output would degrade the agility that T-129 is known for. IMO T-129 is better option for countering terrorism in high and hot conditions whilst ATAK-2 would be ideal for conventional warfare.

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> Yes our requirement is around 3000 Tanks even more and yes we need 120 Helicopters at least. We have to use them Siachin to Karachi with enemy which is much bigger and yes we need Tanks and and I am biggest supporter of MRAP and I am more angry than you on we not going for MRAP but still 120 Attack Helicopter is the minimum requirement which we have. 60 Attack are not even close to being good enough not even close.


how did you make up the new requirement of 3000 tanks?

and the gunship numbers now increased to 120?

again, same question,any logical description for the numbers?

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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well 100 Gunship , let me clearify not just Helicopters. There is a major difference between two from strategic usage on battle field.
> 
> Why is the 100 Gunships justified , well we got 4-5 provinces, lets take 4 figure , so by that account each province will be assigned 25 gunships


Does PA assign troops according to provinces or according to threat level from enemy?


> 100 Gunships and we got 1 Million troops to support , you can clearly see what is the ratio difference
> 
> 25 : 1,000,00


How is that ratio militarily viable? what kind of military planner uses that ratio to determine the number of gunships assigned to a Army formation?



> Realistically we need to protect the borders with Gunships , and also we need the Gunships for active protection of Military Assets and Troops


Borders are protected with troops, weapons, barricades/obstacles, mines and monitoring systems. Gunship is one of many weapons used to protect border, not necessarily the only. Border has been protected without the Gunship for over 50 years.




> In ideal circumstances , we need to aim for 200-250 Gunships
> 
> 50-80 for Border Patrol (Military Rangers)


Can u calculate the cost of flying a helicopter everyday to patrol borders? and if you wont fly everyday then will u just keep it sitting in hangar?

Have you seen on TV that when an incident takes place in pakistan, you dont see more than 2 helicopters flying in air for monitoring situation. The whole cobra squadron doesn't show up in urban environment.

Flying near border has rules and regulations. Afghanistan doesnt have a strong AF. Indian Air Force is waiting for a chance to find a target. If you want a gunship to fly everyday on border with India, u will also need to put 2 F-16 in air for CAP to cover that gunship incase IAF scrambles its aircraft when they detect constant helicopter movement on border.


> 100-150 designated for Military Establishment


As if tackling Zarvan on the 100+ gunship debate not enough. what your reason for 150 for military estb?



> 50 for Navy/Airforce


AF uses helicopters for SAR and transport. It has fixed aircraft for attack.

Navy doesnt have a helicopter carrier. Frigates need transport and ASW helicopters.
The amphibious warfare is covered by marines, who firstly need transport helicopters and if they need ATGM gunships, they dont need more than 2 or 4 to cover the creek area.


> Assumption here is we are dumping the older machines from 70's
> Example
> 
> *Aérospatiale Alouette III*
> *Cobra*
> 
> We have had this operational Gap since 1980's



We have had the AH-1 Cobra since 1980's and that has been a threat for IA armour. PA had the upper hand since 1980's because of AH-1. There has been no gap. India has been flying a variant of Alouette III called cheetak or cheetah.

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## Sucha Kuggu

Signalian said:


> Can u calculate the cost of flying a helicopter everyday to patrol borders? and if you wont fly everyday then will u just keep it sitting in hangar?



Is there any tech like IR senors or radars sensing human movement for our borders, It should be cheap to make/buy and run, 24/7 operational with no down time, less human dependence etc. above all it *PREVENTION RATHER THAN CURE*.

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## Signalian

Sucha Kuggu said:


> Is there any tech like IR senors or radars sensing human movement for our borders, It should be cheap to make/buy and run, 24/7 operational with no down time, less human dependence etc. above all it *PREVENTION RATHER THAN CURE*.


PA infantry uses ground radars for movement detection.

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## Sucha Kuggu

Signalian said:


> PA infantry uses ground radars for movement detection.


 good, obviously we have the "cure" but i said "prevention" so that we are not exposing our men to unnecessary dangers...

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## niaz

Outcome of a war is significantly dependent upon economy. I am not suggesting that a country with stronger economy will always win a war or that abundance of economic resources would uniquely determine the outcome on the battlefield. What I am saying that it is reasonable to assume that economic resources would decide the outcome on the battlefield when other things such as leadership, organization, and morale are equal on both sides.

In case of India/ Pakistan scenario; India will always enjoy numerical superiority. Only foolish & naïve will believe that skill level of average Pakistani soldier is far superior to that of the Indian soldier. Thru better planning, surprise and inspired leadership, Pakistan may gain initial success but to hold on to this gain, Pakistani economy must have the capacity to withstand long war of attrition.

Whereas the fact is that Pakistan is seriously short of money.

“The current account deficit widened by 148.5 per cent to an all-time high of $12.09 billion for 2016-17, the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) reported on Wednesday. The balance on goods and services registered a deficit of $30.5bn compared to $22.7bn in 2015-16.

The growing current account deficit has practically neutralised the positive impact of about $19 bn remittances sent by overseas Pakistanis. For the first time in more than a decade, remittances declined on a year-on-year basis in 2016-17”

https://www.dawn.com/news/1346347


All future wars will be won by the country having superior technology and imported technology is extremely expensive. Therefore urgent measures are needed to raise standard of education at Pakistani schools and universities thus improving indigenous technology base. Additionally, we need to make all out efforts to strengthen our economy so that we can afford to pay for the technology that is beyond our indigenous capability.

In the meantime, we should be investing only on those weapons that would help us to acquire the minimum deterrent level which makes it too costly for India to start even a limited war. In other words we should try to avoid war with India until the time that our economy is sufficiently strong to withstand a war of attrition.

Hence there is no point in wishful thinking like having 30 divisions, 100 helo gunships, 4000 tanks, 3000 guns, 30 fighter squadrons, 10 destroyers, 10 frigates, aircraft carriers, nuclear subs etc. Ground reality is that we don’t have the money to buy all the hardware and after we have acquired it, we cannot afford to run such a large military establishment under the current state of the economy.

Pakistan is already spending more than 3% of her GDP on defence whereas India only spends 2.5%. Pakistan total budget is $47.5- billion. Defence expenditure at $$9.2-billion is about 20% of the total budget. Debt servicing alone is about $8-bilion. How one is going to find money for development, education & health, if we increase our defence spending even higher?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Combat-Master said:


> ATAK-2 is being developed for expected naval requirements, the increased weight and same engine output would degrade the agility that T-129 is known for. IMO T-129 is better option for countering terrorism in high and hot conditions whilst ATAK-2 would be ideal for conventional warfare.


We wont be using dedicated ACs for COIN... we have conventional usage against indians too.

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## Zarvan

*Turkish defense industry eyes ASEAN aerospace market*








TAI officials explain Turkish defense products to the authorities from ASEAN countries at the Thailand Defense and Security Fair, Bangkok, Nov. 7.

*The growing defense industry aims to expand to become the largest defense exporter with Turkish Aerospace Industries seeking export and cooperation opportunities in Bangkok*

The domestic defense industry has experienced a swift transformation in less than a decade. Turkey has become more involved in co-production and co-development defense projects, which have also created export opportunities heavily sought after by the country's main defense companies.

A leading defense company, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) now eyes to enter the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) market with the aerospace platforms it manufactures. The company is reported to have conducted a series of negotiations with the representatives and supply authorities of the countries that attended the Thailand Defense and Security Fair, which will close its gates tomorrow.

TAI General Manager Temel Kotil and company executives accompanying him have met delegations from Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines and Vietnam as well as delegations from Singapore and South Korea and discussed the cooperation and export opportunities in the Asia-Pacific region.

The advanced attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopter ATAK, the unmanned armed vehicle (UAV) ANKA and the new generation basic trainer HÜRKUŞ received a lot attention from high-level fair attendees.

ASEAN countries are an important potential export market for TAI's aerospace platforms. A proposal was already drawn up to export the ATAK helicopter to Thailand. In the upcoming days, a delegation from TAI will visit Thailand and continue its negotiations to start exports to the country.

Furthermore, the ANKA UAV drew Malaysian interest. TAI also submitted a proposal to the authorities in the country and is waiting for the results of the evaluations. For the export of ANKA, consultations with Indonesia also continue and a proposal for the platform was communicated to the Indonesian authorities.

*Apart from ASEAN countries, the South Asian country of Bangladesh is reported to have shown keen interest in ANKA, armed and unarmed HÜRKUŞ and the ATAK helicopter. Negotiations for the sale of 30 attack helicopters are going with the Pakistani government. Being a pilot himself, Prime Minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi examined the T129 ATAK Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter, which has an important place in Turkey's defense industry exports, and participated in a test flight last month.

Following the test flight, Abbasi was reportedly said, "As a pilot, I can say this is the best and most effective attack helicopter in the world. The Pakistani Armed Forces tested this helicopter for four years in all possible conditions and to the finest detail and found it to be the number-one choice and the most successful in technical terms."

The Pakistani prime minister also informed that the negotiations are continuing positively at full speed, announcing that the Pakistani Armed Forces will add the ATAK helicopter to its inventory.*

*Dubai, the destination*

*for Gulf countries*

TAI is scheduled to attend the Dubai Airshow, which will run from Nov. 12 to Nov. 16 to explore opportunities in the Gulf states. The ATAK helicopter will fly in Dubai for the first time during the first three days of the fair. TAI will also bring its ANKA-S, Hürkuş and T625 helicopters to the Dubai Airshow.

TAI is the largest defense and aviation industry exporter in the country for the sixth year in a row, according to the Turkish Exporters Assembly's (TİM) evaluations for the year 2016.

TAI leads Turkey's efforts in aerospace technology and is ranked among the top 100 global players in aerospace and defense. The company has five areas of operation, including aero-structures, planes, helicopters, UAVs and space systems.

Turkish defense and aviation firms have made $1.07 billion exports worldwide in the first eight months of 2017, a slight increase from last year's $1.06 billion. The largest export of $443.9 million was made with the U.S. Germany came second with exports valuing at $140.2 million. India came in third with $66.2 million. In 2016, the U.S. was the largest defense export market for Turkey followed by Germany, Malaysia, Azerbaijan, the U.K., the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia. The top export items in 2015 were aircraft and helicopter parts, engines, tanks and other armored land vehicle parts, ammunition, turbojets for civilian aircraft, hunting rifles, and receiver/transmitter equipment for military use.

According to the Turkish Defense Industry Association, Turkey currently exports one-third of its defense industry production, worth about $5 billion. Meanwhile, according to the Undersecretariat of Defense Industries (SSM), the current domestic participation rate in defense projects is 50-60 percent and the defense industry has an aggressive goal to reach $25 billion and be self-sufficient by 2023. The SSM data of Turkey's 2016 defense exports reached $1.9 billion, which was $487 million in 2006.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...dustry-eyes-asean-aerospace-market-1510079935

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## Gryphon

The T129 has been successfully deployed for several tests and demonstrations in various locations including Bahrain, Germany, Italy, Pakistan, Poland, South Africa and Turkey. Dubai will be the next stage for the T129 Atak.

In 2016 the T129 Atak was operated by the Pakistan Army Aviation Command for two weeks, flying in some of the country’s hottest and highest environments. The T129 conducted over seven flights in three different locations, totalling 15 flying hours.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/...air-show-2017-turkish-t129-makes-its-dubai-d/

‘Thailand is the entry market into Asia for us,’ said Gokhan Timurhan, TAI’s president of corporate communications and coordination. 

There is growing interest around the world, he said. Pakistan in now in pricing negotiations for 30 T129s and it will fly at the upcoming Dubai Airshow for the first time. ‘The show will be important to us for the Middle East region,’ he said. 

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-helicopter/ds-2017-turkey-promotes-attack-helos-and-uavs/

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## jupiter2007

*Pakistan's T-129 ATAK Helicopter*

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## Gryphon

*Pakistan to Soon Get First T129 ATAK from Turkey*

Posted: 2017 Nov 08
*




*
Pakistan is soon expected to get the first T129 ATAK helicopter made by the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), a senior company official tells Asian Defence Technology.

“The South Asian nation could soon be the first country other than Turkey to have the new generation, tandem two-seat, twin engine helicopter specifically designed for attack and reconnaissance purposes,” Tamer Ozmen, Vice President of Corporate Communications informs.

The official declines to comment on the size of the government to government deal, but says “it will be quite a big contract.” Inside sources say Islamabad is expected to buy 30 of these helicopters.

“Army evaluations, financial discussions and contract terms are currently progressing and a final contract is expected soon,” Ozmen says.

In October, Pakistan’s Prime Minister ShahidKhaqanAbbasi made a test flight of T129 helicopter in Istanbul. 

Abbasi is the first Pakistani prime minister to fly a military helicopter.

After taking the flight of the military helicopter, Abbasi appreciated the Turkish aircraft and termed the T129 ATAK an “impressive and one of the best machine in the world.”

“Several South East Asian nations also have shown keen interest in the helicopter,” Ozmen informs.

T129 ATAK, developed from the combat proven AgustaWestland A129CBT, has new engines (LHTEC CTS 800-4A), new avionics and weapons, modified airframe, uprated drive train and new tail rotor.

The T129 ATAK is the helicopter selected in 2007 by the Government of Turkey for the Turkish Land Forces; development and production will be assured by the "ATAK Team", a Joint Partnership of Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) and AgustaWestland. 

“The T129 ATAK has been optimised to meet and exceed the "high and hot" performance requirements for harsh geographical and environmental conditions,” Ozmen says.

T129 ATAK could be provided with UMTAS ATGMs, and CIRIT (70 mm. Guided Rockets) designed for Turkish Armed Forces. Further armament options include Hellfire and Spike ATGMs, Stinger A/A missiles. 

The first TAI-manufactured helicopter was delivered to Turkish Land Forces by the end of April 2014.

Around 25 ATAK helicopters are currently operational in the Turkish Army.

Pakistan to Soon Get First T129 ATAK from Turkey | Asian Defence Technology

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## Arsalan

On key question that is still unanswered is, are we going for the A or the T129-B variant?

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## mingle

Arsalan said:


> On key question that is still unanswered is, are we going for the A or the T129-B variant?


Probably B its a good Heli.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is B going to be the same as ATAK2???
@Combat-Master @cabatli_53 


mingle said:


> Probably B its a good Heli.

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## monitor

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is B going to be the same as ATAK2???
> @Combat-Master @cabatli_53


B is upgraded version with all electronics then A, ATAK2 will heavier then ATAK1 and more firepower then it's predecessor.

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## Zarvan

Turkish Guys on twitter are going ballistic with news that soon a contract for 30 helicopters will be signed between Pakistan and Turkey and our PM is going to Dubai for Dubai Air Show guys should we expect a deal at Dubai Air Show ????

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Turkish Guys on twitter are going ballistic with news that soon a contract for 30 helicopters will be signed between Pakistan and Turkey and our PM is going to Dubai for Dubai Air Show guys should we expect a deal at Dubai Air Show ????


Negotiations. Alan Warnes was the one to break this news all the way back in June and he said the aim is to get a deal announced at the Farnborough Air Show in the UK. My guess ... we won't hear anything firm (if at all) until Farnborough in June/July 2018.

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## OguzSenturk

http://www.businessht.com.tr/ekonomi/haber/1710303-turkiyeden-pakistan-a-30-atak

Yes, Turkish news say CEO of TAI, Temel Kotil said that "Expected to sign for 30 helicopters with Pakistan in upcoming days". But the T-129 sale teach me that i will believe when i see it  Hopefully both nations will be happy.

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## -------

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is B going to be the same as ATAK2???
> @Combat-Master @cabatli_53



No. B is part of ATAK-I project.

_Understanding the T-129 variants _

*EDH *variant of T-129 was produced to fill in urgent requirement of the Armed forces, had minimal weapons and self-protection. All *EDH *variants were upgraded to *A* variant as it became available.
*T129-A *
Missile warning
Flare dispenser
IR suppressor
Local Tactical Communication/Data link
Full weapons integration.


*T129-B *(_incl above systems_)
Laser Warning Receiver
Radar Warning Receiver
Radar Jammer
Chaff and Flare Dispenser
Beyond Line of Sight Tactical Communication/Data link

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## Zarvan

Combat-Master said:


> No. B is part of ATAK-I project.
> 
> _Understanding the T-129 variants _
> 
> *EDH *variant of T-129 was produced to fill in urgent requirement of the Armed forces, had minimal weapons and self-protection. All *EDH *variants were upgraded to *A* variant as it became available.
> *T129-A *
> Missile warning
> Flare dispenser
> IR suppressor
> Local Tactical Communication/Data link
> Full weapons integration.
> 
> 
> *T129-B *(_incl above systems_)
> Laser Warning Receiver
> Radar Warning Receiver
> Radar Jammer
> Chaff and Flare Dispenser
> Beyond Line of Sight Tactical Communication/Data link


Why we haven't seen any picture of T-129 carrying all 8 Anti Tank Missiles along with Rockets and its Machine Gun at same time

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## -------

Zarvan said:


> Why we haven't seen any picture of T-129 carrying all 8 Anti Tank Missiles along with Rockets and its Machine Gun at same time



I don't know Zarvan, there could be numerous reasons as to why.. But here's a Image I photoshopped a while back to troll those who were complaining about loadout.. Perhaps it will satisfy you until you find what you are looking for;

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Negotiations. Alan Warnes was the one to break this news all the way back in June and he said the aim is to get a deal announced at the Farnborough Air Show in the UK. My guess ... we won't hear anything firm (if at all) until Farnborough in June/July 2018.


If we witness Shahid Khakan Abassi movement since he became the Prime Minster we will notice he has been very much on front foot.. starting from flying F16 then going to turkey and again Flying in T129. lastly he was at LOC. I personally think he is trying his best to be in the good books of military establishment and might have signed the contract while his visit in Turkey..

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## Ahmet Pasha

I believe i have seen something to that effect just dont remember where.


Zarvan said:


> Why we haven't seen any picture of T-129 carrying all 8 Anti Tank Missiles along with Rockets and its Machine Gun at same time

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## khanasifm

Zarvan said:


> Turkish Guys on twitter are going ballistic with news that soon a contract for 30 helicopters will be signed between Pakistan and Turkey and our PM is going to Dubai for Dubai Air Show guys should we expect a deal at Dubai Air Show ????



Pm may be also going because pak may be announcing another deal??? As seller ??? Just a thought

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## Zarvan

khanasifm said:


> Pm may be also going because pak may be announcing another deal??? As seller ??? Just a thought


Could be let see

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## Gryphon

DAILY SABAH
ISTANBUL
13 November 2017

The T129 Advanced Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter (ATAK) is awaiting a final signature needed to launch its export to Pakistan. An export proposal for the helicopter has already been drawn up and submitted to authorities in Thailand.

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) General Manager Temel Kotil stated that Pakistan has agreed to purchase 30 ATAK helicopters, although formal procedures are still being completed. The company is soon expected to sign a purchase agreement with the Pakistani government, Kotil said.

He referred to Pakistani Prime Minister Shadid Khaqan Abbasi's visit to Turkey last month, when he, as a personal pilot, examined the T129 ATAK and took it on a test flight.

Afterwards, Abbasi reportedly said, "As a pilot, I can say that this is the best and the most effective attack helicopter in the world. The Pakistani Armed Forces has tested this helicopter for four years in all possible conditions and in its finest detail, and found it to be the number-one choice and the most successful [helicopter] in technical terms."

ATAK helicopters have so far recorded 12,000 flight hours, and the aim is to develop a homegrown engine and a domestically produced 20mm artillery system.

The T129 ATAK helicopter is a new generation, tandem, two-seat, twin-engine helicopter specifically designed for attack and reconnaissance.

Developed from the combat-proven AgustaWestland A129CBT, the new aircraft incorporates a new system philosophy with a new engine - LHTEC CTS 800-4A - new avionics, sight systems and weapons, modified airframe, uprated drive train and new tail rotor.

On the other hand, Kotil also highlighted that the Thailand Defense and Security Fair provided great opportunities for meeting with East Asian countries and expanding the influence of Turkish defense firms across the region, unleashing its great potential.

The general manager said that the countries in the region have significant defense needs, saying, "The unmanned armed vehicle (UAV) ANKA gained attention and we held meetings regarding the exporting of the vehicle with army officials as well as defense ministers."

"Turkish companies can assume responsibility for catering to the defense needs of the region and for contributing to relevant defense projects in those countries," he noted, emphasizing the importance of the presence of Turkish firms at the fair.

Kotil also informed that the TAI has held meetings with representatives from Indonesia, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, the Philippines and South Korea to discuss opportunities for joint defense projects.

At the fair, the TAI also met with British partners to discuss and evaluate cooperative efforts for the domestic fighter jet TF-X project. The architectural process of the project continues and the production stage for the prototype will be launched, Kotil noted.

The tender for manufacturing of the engine will be organized by the TAI on behalf of the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) and the chosen contractor for production of the engine will be clarified in January, according to Kotil.

The TAI is the largest defense and aviation industry exporter in the country for the sixth time in a row, according to Turkish Exporters Assembly's (TİM) evaluations for the year 2016.The TAI leads Turkey's efforts in aerospace technology and is ranked among the top-100 global players in aerospace and defense. The company has five areas of operation, including aero-structures, planes, helicopters, UAVs and space systems.

Domestically developed ATAK helicopter awaits signature for export to Pakistan | dailysabah.com

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## YeBeWarned

so its Official that T-129 will be replacing the Old Cobra's and make the back bone of PA's Attack Helicopter fleet , backed by 20-30 Heavy AH-Z1 Zulu's ..

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## Zarvan

Starlord said:


> so its Official that T-129 will be replacing the Old Cobra's and make the back bone of PA's Attack Helicopter fleet , backed by 20-30 Heavy AH-Z1 Zulu's ..


In my opinion Pakistan should order 36 of these and try to increase Zulu order from 15 to 24 thus making 60 dedicated attack helicopters


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## Areesh

Waiting for signature?

Just sign it FFS.


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## YeBeWarned

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion Pakistan should order 36 of these and try to increase Zulu order from 15 to 24 thus making 60 dedicated attack helicopters



30 is initial Order, that is a huge number for first order , and who say we cant post another 30 units order ? but as @cabatli_53 said, the purchase is negotiated on Credit along with possible 4 Istanbul class Frigates, so once our economy is shooting up, we can pay them faster and place another order, as for additional 15 Zulu's , i wont put much weight over that, but if the US Pak relation improves than i see no other reason not to buy another 15 Zulu's . but to tackle the new ISIS threat in our western borders we need dedicated 30+ Attack Helicopters on Afghan border monitoring every movement of Terrorist 24/7 .

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## slapshot

snow lake said:


> Will America get the message. I am offering one of my fingers for a photoshoot


Don't want to be a spoiler but engine is of US origin. In past there were some reservations on that aspect with respect to sanctions.


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## HannibalBarca

Starlord said:


> 30 is initial Order, that is a huge number for first order , and who say we cant post another 30 units order ? but as @cabatli_53 said, the purchase is negotiated on Credit along with possible 4 Istanbul class Frigates, so once our economy is shooting up, we can pay them faster and place another order, as for additional 15 Zulu's , i wont put much weight over that, but if the US Pak relation improves than i see no other reason not to buy another 15 Zulu's . but to tackle the new ISIS threat in our western borders we need dedicated 30+ Attack Helicopters on Afghan border monitoring every movement of Terrorist 24/7 .


Border monitoring with Helis is a waste of money... better done with cheap (armed or not) Drones that can fly an entire day and up to 30hrs+...

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## YeBeWarned

HannibalBarca said:


> Border monitoring with Helis is a waste of money... better done with cheap (armed or not) Drones that can fly an entire day and up to 30hrs+...



not talking just about Bordering, but also roasting any cockroaches that try to sneak in ... just today we lost 2 Soldiers from cross border attacks .

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## CHACHA"G"

Great news ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Very happy,,,,,,,, 
If you guys don't call me fan boy , I will shear the info(conversation) again in which I came to know PA need attack 120 helis , minimum requirement is 80 and I also understand PA will go for 2 different platforms with 60:40 ratio , one will come with TOT and other with some heavy facilities (I don't know how much TOT is there) , One is T-129 and I m waiting for second ( I am sure its not Zulus, may be Chines Z-10s), PA will may buy 7 to 8 more Zulus to bring numbers to 20 ............ 
War in Afghnistan , ISIS in Afghnistan , India on one side and Iran (with Baluchistan issues) on other brings 2.5 front war scenarios for Pakistan........ We may not go to war with India in 20 years but we surly going to have a war with Afghnistan (ISIS) very soon .
And for border patrolling we need heavy UCAVs , cheaper way with deadly payload .

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## Arsalan

mingle said:


> Probably B its a good Heli.


We all "wish" it to be "B" but do not "know" that it is "B"



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Is B going to be the same as ATAK2???
> @Combat-Master @cabatli_53


NO
ATAK 2 is a new heavier variant. Diff. beterr T-129 A and B is mainly electronics related EW.

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## Maxpane

great step

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## Trango Towers

slapshot said:


> Don't want to be a spoiler but engine is of US origin. In past there were some reservations on that aspect with respect to sanctions.


Yes I know. But I am sure they have some backup on that.

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## GriffinsRule

slapshot said:


> Don't want to be a spoiler but engine is of US origin. In past there were some reservations on that aspect with respect to sanctions.



How is that a spoiler? Feel free to list all the different helicopters and fixed wing aircraft flying with PA, PAF and PN that also have US engines ...

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## BATMAN

Signature will happen at some def. expo.

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## slapshot

GriffinsRule said:


> How is that a spoiler? Feel free to list all the different helicopters and fixed wing aircraft flying with PA, PAF and PN that also have US engines ...


Dear indeed we have many things of US origins and F-16 is major example. TAI ATAK is being evaluated by PA and discussed on this forum for past couple of years. In past people suspected that US could influence the deal indirectly because TAI is using licensed engine from US and normally such licenses need permission from source for export to third country. Anyway we are already buying AH1Z from US so it looks like Pakistan is still trusting them even though they put us under sanctions when we needed the equipment the most.


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## The SC

TAKAS KOTIL, the general manager of Turkey's aerospace industry Tusaq, said During a press release that Pakistan has decided to buy 30 T-129 Atak combat helicopters worth 1.5 billion dollars and that the agreement will be signed in the near future.

This came during a press statement, in which Kotil pointed out that the Atak helicopter, had received great attention from Pakistani Prime Minister Shahid Khakan Abbasi on his last visit to Turkey in October, where the Prime Minister of Pakistan tour of Istanbul aboard the Turkish attack helicopter "T129 Atak" led by himself, expressed his intention to include the helicopter to the armed forces of his country.

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## khansaheeb

I hope TOT was agreed, Pakistan should not buy defence items without technology transfers.

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## Khafee

khansaheeb said:


> I hope TOT was agreed, Pakistan should not buy defence items without technology transfers.


ToT was part of the deal, plus PAC will make parts for non-PK, T129's as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Starlord said:


> 30 is initial Order, that is a huge number for first order , and who say we cant post another 30 units order ? but as @cabatli_53 said, the purchase is negotiated on Credit along with possible 4 Istanbul class Frigates, so once our economy is shooting up, we can pay them faster and place another order, as for additional 15 Zulu's , i wont put much weight over that, but if the US Pak relation improves than i see *no other reason not to buy another 15 Zulu's *. but to tackle the new ISIS threat in our western borders we need dedicated 30+ Attack Helicopters on Afghan border monitoring every movement of Terrorist 24/7 .


If Pakistan ends up in a situation where it is co-producing the T129 (with parts and final assembly), then there is absolutely no reason to spend national funds on the AH-1Z. It's a great helicopter, yes, but why not support the local industry and scale the upfront investment of the T129 support base in Pakistan? Just keep adding 6~10 new T129 every year after the initial order of 30. If a heavier platform is required, look to the ATAK 2.

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## python-000

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion Pakistan should order 36 of these and try to increase Zulu order from 15 to 24 thus making 60 dedicated attack helicopters


salam zarvan bhai, pahla 9 ordered Zulu's kab tak milan ga ?


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## Zarvan

python-000 said:


> salam zarvan bhai, pahla 9 ordered Zulu's kab tak milan ga ?


We have ordered 15 not 9 secondly by this year end or start of next year

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## Khafee

BATMAN said:


> Signature will happen at some def. expo.


Farnborough is being touted, which is beyond me. 

This historical milestone, should be either in Turkey or Pakistan, with the Turkish President, and Pakistani PM witnessing it, while PAC and TAI sign the contract.

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## python-000

Zarvan said:


> We have ordered 15 not 9 secondly by this year end or start of next year


Thanks Zarvin bro to inform me


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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If Pakistan ends up in a situation where it is co-producing the T129 (with parts and final assembly), then there is absolutely no reason to spend national funds on the AH-1Z. It's a great helicopter, yes, but why not support the local industry and scale the upfront investment of the T129 support base in Pakistan? Just keep adding 6~10 new T129 every year after the initial order of 30. If a heavier platform is required, look to the ATAK 2.



Diverse platforms ? AH-Z1 comes with 1000 hell fire missiles which we do need , plus AH-z1 is slightly superior in performance compared to T-129 and T-129-2 we don't know how far it from been operational . for Zulu's we might have setup for maintenance and over haul cause of Old Cobra .



Zarvan said:


> We have ordered 15 not 9 secondly by this year end or start of next year



Correct number is 12 units , 3 to be delivered by end of 2017, and remaining 9 will be delivered in 2018 .


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## GriffinsRule

Starlord said:


> Diverse platforms ? AH-Z1 comes with 1000 hell fire missiles which we do need , plus AH-z1 is slightly superior in performance compared to T-129 and T-129-2 we don't know how far it from been operational . for Zulu's we might have setup for maintenance and over haul cause of Old Cobra .



There is nothing in common between the old and the new Cobras so we dont have any setup for their maintenance or overhaul.

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## OguzSenturk

UMTAS fire


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## mzeeshanfahd

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If Pakistan ends up in a situation where it is co-producing the T129 (with parts and final assembly), then there is absolutely no reason to spend national funds on the AH-1Z. It's a great helicopter, yes, but why not support the local industry and scale the upfront investment of the T129 support base in Pakistan? Just keep adding 6~10 new T129 every year after the initial order of 30. If a heavier platform is required, look to the ATAK 2.



people always tell me to sugar quote before saying things ..... I think I should learn from you ....

.... I wonder how I could have said it ....


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Starlord said:


> Diverse platforms ? AH-Z1 comes with 1000 hell fire missiles which we do need , plus AH-z1 is slightly superior in performance compared to T-129 and T-129-2 we don't know how far it from been operational . for Zulu's we might have setup for maintenance and over haul cause of Old Cobra .
> 
> 
> 
> Correct number is 12 units , 3 to be delivered by end of 2017, and remaining 9 will be delivered in 2018 .


As stated by @GriffinsRule, there's no commonality between the AH-1F/S and the AH-1Z. They're from different families, with the AH-1Z being a major upgrade of the twin-engine Super Cobra platform. In conventional war, Pakistan's domestic supply channel of locally sourced spare parts, maintenance and repair services will be critical to keeping the attack helicopters active. The Army is investing to build all that for the T129, so it makes sense (and is likelier) to add more T129s ahead of any other platform, especially the AH-1Z.

The only scenario where I would consider adding maybe another handful of AH-1Z (i.e. 3-8) would be for SOF missions. 

Basically, raise a Joint SOF Command and hand over the AH-1Z to it along with up to 20 UH-1Y (which has 85% commonality with the AH-1Z). This could be a common asset pool for the SSG, SSG-N and SSW should any of them need air assault inputs for an operation. Throw in some C295 fixed-wing transports with secondary ISR and gunship capabilities and MALE UAVs like CH-5s too.

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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As stated by @GriffinsRule, there's no commonality between the AH-1F/S and the AH-1Z. They're from different families, with the AH-1Z being a major upgrade of the twin-engine Super Cobra platform. In conventional war, Pakistan's domestic supply channel of locally sourced spare parts, maintenance and repair services will be critical to keeping the attack helicopters active. The Army is investing to build all that for the T129, so it makes sense (and is likelier) to add more T129s ahead of any other platform, especially the AH-1Z.
> 
> The only scenario where I would consider adding maybe another handful of AH-1Z (i.e. 3-8) would be for SOF missions.
> 
> Basically, raise a Joint SOF Command and hand over the AH-1Z to it along with up to 20 UH-1Y (which has 85% commonality with the AH-1Z). This could be a common asset pool for the SSG, SSG-N and SSW should any of them need air assault inputs for an operation. Throw in some C295 fixed-wing transports with secondary ISR and gunship capabilities and MALE UAVs like CH-5s too.



If we are looking to make major spare parts for T-129's than i doubt they are just looking for 30 Units ? we have around 50-55 Cobras to be replaced so these 30 along with 12 AH-Z1's will make around 40-45 Attack helicopters . Quick question , is there any other ATGM we are looking to mount on these T-129's ? we have Hell fire 2 and Burq missiles but i wonder if Burq can be mounted on Turkish copter ?

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## Zarvan

Starlord said:


> If we are looking to make major spare parts for T-129's than i doubt they are just looking for 30 Units ? we have around 50-55 Cobras to be replaced so these 30 along with 12 AH-Z1's will make around 40-45 Attack helicopters . Quick question , is there any other ATGM we are looking to mount on these T-129's ? we have Hell fire 2 and Burq missiles but i wonder if Burq can be mounted on Turkish copter ?


We would go for UMTAS with Turkish Attack Helicopters

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Starlord said:


> If we are looking to make major spare parts for T-129's than i doubt they are just looking for 30 Units ? we have around 50-55 Cobras to be replaced so these 30 along with 12 AH-Z1's will make around 40-45 Attack helicopters . Quick question , is there any other ATGM we are looking to mount on these T-129's ? we have Hell fire 2 and Burq missiles but i wonder if Burq can be mounted on Turkish copter ?


Exactly. The final assembly and parts manufacturing line at PAC means that more than 30 T129s are intended.

After the initial order, the PA can look at adding more T129s on an incremental basis, e.g. 3 a year. Over a period of 10 years, that would amount to another 30 helicopters.

As for ATGM, Turkey is offering the T129 with the Roketsan UMTAS, but I don't think it'd be a problem to integrate the Burq.

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## Thorough Pro

Concentrating all your aerial manufacturing facilities in one area, would prove to be a big blunder if a war ever breaks out. 




Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. *The final assembly and parts manufacturing line at PAC means that more than 30 T129s are intended.*
> 
> After the initial order, the PA can look at adding more T129s on an incremental basis, e.g. 3 a year. Over a period of 10 years, that would amount to another 30 helicopters.
> 
> As for ATGM, Turkey is offering the T129 with the Roketsan UMTAS, but I don't think it'd be a problem to integrate the Burq.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thorough Pro said:


> Concentrating all your aerial manufacturing facilities in one area, would prove to be a big blunder if a war ever breaks out.


I agree. It's also unwise from an economic point of view, there should be high-value industry entities all over the country, especially interior Sindh, Baluchistan and KP. By inserting an aviation plant of some kind in interior Sindh, you can help enrich surrounding towns and areas in many ways, thus reducing migration to Karachi.

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## Hassan Guy

Thorough Pro said:


> Concentrating all your aerial manufacturing facilities in one area, would prove to be a big blunder if a war ever breaks out.


Majority of Pak defence industry is locating around Islamabad

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## alimobin memon

Nazi Germans lost industries as war progressed and they had their industries situated in different locations not circling around one place. its worrying in case of war if the enemy planes have to destroy our production facilities they could do in one go.

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## Advocate Pakistan

Thorough Pro said:


> Concentrating all your aerial manufacturing facilities in one area, would prove to be a big blunder if a war ever breaks out.



True, not just aerial manufacturing (PAC). Even HIT, POF, KSEW etc. I have long dreamt about another PAC at Turbat and a shipyard at Gawadar, a port at Pasni.
An HIT at Jacobabad/ Ziarat while another POF at DI Khan would be a welcome addition if we had the money. It seriously is time to look west of Indus for security. With such installations in these areas, security will also improve in these areas.
Don't bash me guys for all this. I am a simple man who likes dreaming alot.

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## KediKesenFare3

Is it true that they're going to use a part of the loan to establish industrial production capacities for T129 in Pakistan?

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## Silahtar



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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## python-000

Silahtar said:


>


Awesome achievements TURK Brothers & keep it up


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## ZedZeeshan

Zarvan said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Translation Please...!!


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## eagleeye

It said Pakistan will buy 30 Helis . Tai offers ToT and local produktion.

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## IHK_PK

khanasifm said:


> 15 Zulu were for 900 million to billion along with weapons and training
> 
> 30 for 1.5 along with tech transfer and parts manufacturing ??
> 
> Cheaper then 12 Zulu’s comparison


I think it's now only 9 zulu's are coming only.


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## Areesh

IHK_PK said:


> I think it's now only 9 zulu's are coming only.



12 are coming.


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## Incog_nito

Will it be licenced produce @ PAC?

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## cabatli_53

Atak-II

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## IHK_PK

Areesh said:


> 12 are coming.


No.. it will b 9 only at this time . It Could b 6 more if both countries agreed. Because initial order of Pakistan was 15 and that's what senate give it's go ahead in the beginning. 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Defence.pk mobile app


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## Advocate Pakistan

IHK_PK said:


> No.. it will b 9 only at this time . It Could b 6 more if both countries agreed. Because initial order of Pakistan was 15 and that's what senate give it's go ahead in the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Defence.pk mobile app


I believe it's 3+9 out of the 15 approved by the Americans.
@Quwa might be able to tell.

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## -------

T-129 firing UMTAS ATGM at a test target fitted with ERA blocks

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## araz

IHK_PK said:


> No.. it will b 9 only at this time . It Could b 6 more if both countries agreed. Because initial order of Pakistan was 15 and that's what senate give it's go ahead in the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Defence.pk mobile app


I think the report stated 12 with 3 arriving this year and 9 the next year. But let us first see these 3 arriving in Pak land.
A


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## Ahmet Pasha

They may not be arriving after Trump chenanigans.


araz said:


> I think the report stated 12 with 3 arriving this year and 9 the next year. But let us first see these 3 arriving in Pak land.
> A


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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> They may not be arriving after Trump chenanigans.


Hence the last sentence. I gather though that since we have paid for these helos we should get them. The interesting thing would be if we placed a follow on order for 18 further units. That would really tell the pulse of the administration and Congress. However let us wait and see. Sanctions are aways on the cards with the US.
A

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## Ahmet Pasha

Anyupdates on TEI engine for atak and the Pakistani tender???


cabatli_53 said:


> Atak-II


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## Bratva

Who wanna bet, Americans going to put such sanctions which will prevent turkey from selling engine to Pakistan after 48 hours ?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bratva said:


> Who wanna bet, Americans going to put such sanctions which will prevent turkey from selling engine to Pakistan after 48 hours ?


Trump is just personifying US policy towards Pakistan since the Obama days.

While the US has restricted Pakistan's options for arms (esp. in terms of US weapons), it hasn't placed blanket sanctions on it nor does it intend to for the time being.

PS: The T129's turboshaft is a joint-venture between Honeywell and Rolls-Royce, the latter is developing a non-ITAR version of it (i.e. immune to US export restrictions).

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## imadul

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If Pakistan ends up in a situation where it is co-producing the T129 (with parts and final assembly), then there is absolutely no reason to spend national funds on the AH-1Z. It's a great helicopter, yes, but why not support the local industry and scale the upfront investment of the T129 support base in Pakistan? Just keep adding 6~10 new T129 every year after the initial order of 30. If a heavier platform is required, look to the ATAK 2.


Heavier platform should be mil mi-28ne, a tested fixed wing. Even KA 50/52, both similarly priced @16mil.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Zarvan said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/



If our tall PM can fit in Chopper then deal is done


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## -------

cabatli_53 said:


> Atak-II



Looks like ATAK-II will have same weapons configuration as T-129... Which is decent, but definetely not up to heavy attack helicopters standards.. Still wondering about 8ton attack helicopter reveal TAI general Manager slipped up on


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## Khagan1923

Combat-Master said:


> Looks like ATAK-II will have same weapons configuration as T-129... Which is decent, but definetely not up to heavy attack helicopters standards.. Still wondering about 8ton attack helicopter reveal TAI general Manager slipped up on



An Apache equivalent? 

ATAK II is like the AH-1W/Z to the AH-1F isn't it?. More Armor, better engine giving room for a couple more armaments but thats it. An Apache equivalent would be nice though.


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## Ahmet Pasha

So theres two atack helicopters??
Do u have a link??


Combat-Master said:


> Looks like ATAK-II will have same weapons configuration as T-129... Which is decent, but definetely not up to heavy attack helicopters standards.. Still wondering about 8ton attack helicopter reveal TAI general Manager slipped up on


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## cabatli_53

Attention to firing scenes !

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## -------

cabatli_53 said:


> Attention to firing scenes !



Notice that test is the one I posted; range to target is just shy of 8km using IIR seeker and real time R/F data-link.










Aselsan developed T-129 communication systems

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## cabatli_53

T-129 Atak is destroying YPG terrorists in Syria. The footage taken from YPG cameras.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/957313568805965824

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## -------




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## Imran Khan

PAA is just confused what to buy .

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> PAA is just confused what to buy .


Naa it is the begging bowl out again. Allah kay naam pay 30 helicopter day day baba.
A

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## Readerdefence

Hi at the end PAA will end up with Z series Chinese


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## ARMalik

It is very easy to make silly statements. PA knows exactly what it wants but it needs to be on PA's "terms" not some foreign entity's interests. This takes time and patience as this is a BIG decision.


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## alikazmi007

cabatli_53 said:


> Attention to firing scenes !



Need to get me one of these!


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## mzeeshanfahd

the news says .....T129 down in afrin ops.... will some turkish member shed some light as to what had happened .... provided news is even true????

https://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404202997600111322


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## -------



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## YeBeWarned

araz said:


> Naa it is the begging bowl out again. Allah kay naam pay 30 helicopter day day baba.
> A



More like Financial Assistance ke sath 30 Helicopter de day Baba ..


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/962294530606358528
T-129 down in Syria don't know whether it was technical fault or it was shot down


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/962294530606358528
> T-129 down in Syria don't know whether it was technical fault or it was shot down



is it confirmed?


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## Ahmet Pasha

Syria's been buzzing hot in last 24hrs 


Path-Finder said:


> is it confirmed?


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## AMG_12

Path-Finder said:


> is it confirmed?


Yeah, it has been confirmed. Check the Operation Olive Branch thread for more updates.

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/962304026258952193


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## Ahmet Pasha

Don't the helo simply fly away???
Low key American must be very happy their MANPADS are paying off. 
Hope Turkish bros didnt get hurt in crash.


Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/962304026258952193


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## mingle

Heli was too Low .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pak Army Aviation (test) pilot of T-129;









Ahmet Pasha said:


> Don't the helo simply fly away???
> Low key American must be very happy their MANPADS are paying off.
> Hope Turkish bros didnt get hurt in crash.


I dont see any chopper crashing or being hit.

All i see is the chopper releasing flares.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Same dude but there's a weird smoke cloud at end. It could've been from a rocket/missile or general battlefield explosive.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pak Army Aviation (test) pilot of T-129;
> 
> View attachment 453236
> 
> 
> 
> I dont see any chopper crashing or being hit.
> 
> All i see is the chopper releasing flares.


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## mingle

Heli can bring down by many ways it wont make them inferior .i remember US apachi brought down by Ak47 in iraq This make apachi a bad mechine? I don't think so.
Our cobra shot down at Tirah valley by RPG. Things happened in war.
I have no doubt T129 is great machine

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## royalharris

western blood, nato standard, so it must be good


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## 帅的一匹

royalharris said:


> western blood, nato standard, so it must be good


The armor is thin


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## Readerdefence

Hi we all should keep on eye on the news of bringing down a su25 Russian plane 
Looks like allies against Syria is supplying manpads and they are working really well 
Looks like Russians doesn’t have proper ECM on their bombers 
Thanks


----------



## -------

Notice, this block of T-129 are equipped with Aselsan developed IRCM

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## muhammadali233

mingle said:


> Our cobra shot down at Tirah valley by RPG. Things happened in war.


When did that happen?Details plz


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## mingle

muhammadali233 said:


> When did that happen?Details plz


I think few yrs back by RPG. That's only cobra lost with enemy fire .


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## -------



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## MystryMan

mingle said:


> I think few yrs back by RPG. That's only cobra lost with enemy fire .


What happened to the crew? and air frame write-off?


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## HRK

mingle said:


> I think few yrs back by RPG. That's only cobra lost with enemy fire .


plz post the source .... I am not aware of any such incident


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## mingle

Read a @ifighter pilot tweet that T129 is taking part 23 March parade.


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## WaLeEdK2

mingle said:


> Read a @ifighter pilot tweet that T129 is taking part 23 March parade.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/975348032563802112
Can anyone confirm?


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## Clairvoyant

HRK said:


> plz post the source .... I am not aware of any such incident


A low flying cobra was indeed lost to RPG fire in Tirah valley,the pilot and gunner both were KIA.Happened during the same operation when a brigadier got KIA right after disembarking from his vehicle.

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## HRK

Imad Afridi said:


> A low flying cobra was indeed lost to RPG fire in Tirah valley,the pilot and gunner both were KIA.Happened during the same operation when a brigadier got KIA right after disembarking from his vehicle.


any publish report that will be helpful 
@DESERT FIGHTER @Signalian @Arsalan can any of you help about the above quoted incident as I am aware about only one lost that too due to the compressor stall which occurred in 2003 or 2005 (forgetting the year of this incident)

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## Arsalan

HRK said:


> any publish report that will be helpful
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Signalian @Arsalan can any of you help about the above quoted incident as I am aware about only one lost that too due to the compressor stall which occurred in 2003 or 2005 (forgetting the year of this incident)


Its true! Happened back in 2010.



> PESHAWAR/JAMRUD: Three Pakistan Army officials, including a brigadier and a major, were killed and two others sustained serious injuries in a military gunship chopper (Cobra) crash and an ambush on a rescue team that was proceeding towards the Tirah Valley in the troubled Khyber Agency to recover bodies and wreckage of the helicopter, reportedly shot down by suspected militants on Wednesday.
> 
> The choppers heavily shelled some suspected positions of the militants and disappeared for some time. Later, when the choppers reappeared and were seen bombing suspected militants’ hideouts in the mountainous territory, the militants opened fire at the two gunship choppers and finally shot down one of the helicopters in the forests near Nangrosa area, the native town of Mangal Bagh.
> 
> Several hours later after the chopper hit the ground, a rescue team of the Pakistan Army’s 40 Baloch Regiment was sent to the area in two helicopters to recover the bodies of the two slain officials — a pilot Major Muzaffar and a gunner, Havaldar Asim, and wreckage of the destroyed helicopter.
> 
> It seemed the militants were already aware of the arrival of rescue team, as they attacked the two helicopters soon after its members touched the ground.According to sources, Brigadier Hussain, Major Zia and Lieutenant Ansar sufferedserious injuries in the attack.
> 
> Brigadier Hussain, they said, later succumbed to his injuries while the two other officials were airlifted to a military hospital in Peshawar.



Link: https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/print/669486

Also;
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/world/asia/11pstan.html

http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/21362-Brigadier-killed-in-rescue-operation-of-crashed-he

Both reporting same incident. 




MystryMan said:


> What happened to the crew? and air frame write-off?


Crew was killed in the crash. A rescue party led by a brigadier from 40 Baloch Reg. went in to recover bodies from wreckage and was ambushed. We lost the brigadier in that ambush. If i remember correctly, he was from Gujranwala area and was posted in Mangla (had his family there) and was on operational deployment in Waziristan. Someone from my family was in Mangla those days and i remember getting some details from them when he was lost.

*It was back when the operation was in full swing and those days saw the most intense fighting of the whole operation.*

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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> any publish report that will be helpful
> @DESERT FIGHTER @Signalian @Arsalan can any of you help about the above quoted incident as I am aware about only one lost that too due to the compressor stall which occurred in 2003 or 2005 (forgetting the year of this incident)


I think we have lost Cobras atleast on three different occasions.

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## Clairvoyant

Arsalan said:


> Its true! Happened back in 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> Link: https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/print/669486
> 
> Also;
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/world/asia/11pstan.html
> 
> http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/21362-Brigadier-killed-in-rescue-operation-of-crashed-he
> 
> Both reporting same incident.
> 
> 
> 
> Crew was killed in the crash. A rescue party led by a brigadier from 40 Baloch Reg. went in to recover bodies from wreckage and was ambushed. We lost the brigadier in that ambush. If i remember correctly, he was from Gujranwala area and was posted in Mangla (had his family there) and was on operational deployment in Waziristan. Someone from my family was in Mangla those days and i remember getting some details from them when he was lost.
> 
> *It was back when the operation was in full swing and those days saw the most intense fighting of the whole operation.*


Brigadier was lost to Sniper fire after the crash.

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## GriffinsRule

Tipu7 said:


> I think we have lost Cobras atleast on three different occasions.



We lost a Cobra in June 2014 that got caught in a dust storm and crashed killing both crew in Multan and another in April that crash landed after take off from Peshawar airport and was damaged.
Then in Dec 2013 a Cobra had to make a force landing in Rahwali but not sure if it was a write-off or not. Another in Oct crashed in Rahwali cantt area too and was destroyed but the crew escaped unharmed.
Then of course the one mentioned above in detail that crashed in Tirah in 2010.
There was one crash landing in 2008 near Parachinar too. 
Of the two that crashed from the original order of 20 from the 80s, one was in Dec of 1988 that crash landed after an auto-rotation failure and was eventually fixed locally and entered service in 1991 (during the sanctions era).

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## -------

*Pakistan Day Parade*

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## Irfan Baloch

Combat-Master said:


> *Pakistan Day Parade*


awesome sight, these are sleek machines wish them in Pak army aviation and long term defense partnership with the Turks.

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## muhammadali233



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## HAIDER

*The deal to export 30 ATAK helicopters is expected to be finalized soon and is considered a boost for the morale of the domestic defense industry and a promising project for Turkish-Pakistani military ties*

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## Muhammad Omar

How soon are we talking here


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## HAIDER

Muhammad Omar said:


> How soon are we talking here


When Turkey receive engines for Pak helicopter and Turkey accept loan terms.

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## blinder

So Uncle Sam (or in this case Mister Trump) can veto the engines. 
And at the same time he can give Bell Helicopter the green light for more AH-1Z. 
What would you do in his position...? (apart from resigning from office ;-))


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## cabatli_53

Turkish staff staying in Pakistan during 1 months to shape the contract to finalize the deal almost completed their efforts for 30 T-129 Atak deal for Pakistan.
ATAK is going to receive real time data communication between Anka and Bayraktar TB2 drones thanks to Data Protocol project.

Atak-2 will be revealed in 2021. Atak-2 will receive a new HMD called Avci-2.
Atak-2 mechanical, transmission, hydraliulic and rotors will be based on domestic parts developed for T-625 utility helicopters.
Both Atak-2 and T-625 will use national TEI-TS-1400 turboshaft engines.

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## Path-Finder

cabatli_53 said:


> HMD called Avci-2.



cool, I wonder if there a HMD for Fighters too?


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## Readerdefence

Path-Finder said:


> cool, I wonder if there a HMD for Fighters too?


Hi if china is not coming out something for jf17 in near future then you are right 
We will be getting something on the line of PODs for jf17 kind of HMD also 
Thank you 
Any input from your side of cabatli_53 will be appreciated


----------



## mustafa erkan

Atak at EUROASIA AIR SHOW




Long version


----------



## cabatli_53

Ataks ay Efes-2018 exercise


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/991946122485788673

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## python-000

Hi Guys, Any big news & out come of this meeting any thing new about T-129 !!!

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## Sulman Badshah

on TRT page their is a report that suggest Pakistan have bought 30 T129 for 1.5 B USD

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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> on TRT page their is a report that suggest Pakistan have bought 30 T129 for 1.5 B USD


Questionable

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## Alex John

What happened to the Tiger deal?


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## dBSPL

The mentioned figure is not the helicopter / unit cost but the total agreement price.

The maintenance and logistics infrastructure for T129 will be established in Pakistan. All of these initial settlement costs included in the total deal price. Pakistan will also receive Roketsan ammunitions (Cirit,Umtas,Temren etc.) with T129. In addition, part of this deal includes the offset contribution(ToT subjects). There are also financing costs arising from long-term loans.

Do not think of it as the price of a bare T129-P. When Pakistan has this infrastructure, the costs of advanced variants will decline dramatically.

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## bsruzm

cabatli_53 said:


> Ataks ay Efes-2018 exercise
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/991946122485788673




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/992789904932392961


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## Armchair

great buy, always a supporter of Turkish-Pakistani collaboration. But I've been saying this for a long time - attack helicopters are expensive as seen by this 50 million dollar price tag per aircraft. A simple rugged CAS aircraft locally developed similar to the BAe SABA would have cost $5-7 million per plane. What a gigantic price difference. What a giant amount of money for a handful of silver bullets.

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## IceCold

So are they coming or not?


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## MIRauf

BAe SABA, after support, infrastructure setup, spares, logistic and training will be much more then simple $5-7 Million / unit.

So if the current 30 are at $1.5 Billion, as you say $50 Million / unit, if PA pays close to $1Billion for next 30 units, will you wonder why the unit price dropped ? or will you wonder if the new units are less capable as their price is ~$33 Million / unit ?.

$1.5 Billion <> $50 Million / unit, there is lot more then just unit price included in that $1.5 Billion.


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## Armchair

yes keep making excuses for 50 million per aircraft. How low will it go? 40? 30? Never going to go below 30. The logic or lack thereof is mind boggling.


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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> great buy, always a supporter of Turkish-Pakistani collaboration. But I've been saying this for a long time - attack helicopters are expensive as seen by this 50 million dollar price tag per aircraft. A simple rugged CAS aircraft locally developed similar to the BAe SABA would have cost $5-7 million per plane. What a gigantic price difference. What a giant amount of money for a handful of silver bullets.


Both if entirely different roles ... An aircraft load carrying capability is limited ... Airceafts have higher long term operational cost and cannot move with the armed forces ... They can operate from air bases only ...


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## Armchair

No, such aircraft don't have higher operational cost, in fact the reverse is true. Such aircraft are also very often designed with rough field performance. Point of airbases is moot - just look at how PA Cobras are deployed. They are deployed from bases. Bases from which a small stretch of road could easily serve CAS planes. 

PA Cobras don't get deployed with armed formations, they are deployed behind in forward bases. You don't know what you're talking about. Sadly we only get half-baked answers from people who don't spend time thinking about what they type. 

CAS is a role. Attack helicopters in PA service don't move with formations. They have very little loiter time. If you want to move with formations you need longer loiter times.

A little more reseach and thinking wouldn't hurt.

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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> No, such aircraft don't have higher operational cost, in fact the reverse is true. Such aircraft are also very often designed with rough field performance. Point of airbases is moot - just look at how PA Cobras are deployed. They are deployed from bases. Bases from which a small stretch of road could easily serve CAS planes.
> 
> PA Cobras don't get deployed with armed formations, they are deployed behind in forward bases. You don't know what you're talking about. Sadly we only get half-baked answers from people who don't spend time thinking about what they type.
> 
> CAS is a role. Attack helicopters in PA service don't move with formations. They have very little loiter time. If you want to move with formations you need longer loiter times.
> 
> A little more reseach and thinking wouldn't hurt.


Can you please be specific which aircraft you are suggesting which can suit the bill i.e. lower cost, higher punch and true ability of CAS of percision strike ... Your proposal is good but kindly provide me name of aircraft which has night attack capability ... Capability oc percision strike weapon carying capability closed to attack helicopters and the capability to move with armed formations ...

All the helicopters operates from air bases but does that means that even in war time they will continue to do so ?

we are training our aircrafts to land on motorways whereas you are saying helicopters will keep on operating from airbase ... Why ?



Armchair said:


> No, such aircraft don't have higher operational cost, in fact the reverse is true. Such aircraft are also very often designed with rough field performance. Point of airbases is moot - just look at how PA Cobras are deployed. They are deployed from bases. Bases from which a small stretch of road could easily serve CAS planes.
> 
> PA Cobras don't get deployed with armed formations, they are deployed behind in forward bases. You don't know what you're talking about. Sadly we only get half-baked answers from people who don't spend time thinking about what they type.
> 
> CAS is a role. Attack helicopters in PA service don't move with formations. They have very little loiter time. If you want to move with formations you need longer loiter times.
> 
> A little more reseach and thinking wouldn't hurt.


Can you please be specific which aircraft you are suggesting which can suit the bill i.e. lower cost, higher punch and true ability of CAS of percision strike ... Your proposal is good but kindly provide me name of aircraft which has night attack capability ... Capability oc percision strike weapon carying capability closed to attack helicopters and the capability to move with armed formations ...

All the helicopters operates from air bases but does that means that even in war time they will continue to do so ?

we are training our aircrafts to land on motorways whereas you are saying helicopters will keep on operating from airbase ... Why ?

Further do enlighten me what will you do in the battlefield of kashmir and all mountaineous regions ? How a fixed wing aircraft will target even a single sniper hidden at a strategic location of a mountain ... Dont you remember the kargil incident ? They developed special chopers for mountain region whereas you so called expert is suggesting to eliminate them ...


----------



## Armchair

In war time, they operate from forward air bases. These could be secretive such as some potentially set up using the motorway. Any such place can also operate CAS planes. for a tiny fraction of the cost...

I've already in this thread noted the CAS plane I'd like to see but the issue isn't a specific plane, your issue is you're negating CAS planes. Let's get that right first before discussing what exact plane. 

Here are some discussions you can read up on to understand the arguments for and against better:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/whither-now-the-attack-helicopter-problem-for-pa.545613/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/potential-turbo-prop-for-paf-calidus-b-250.542067/


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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> In war time, they operate from forward air bases. These could be secretive such as some potentially set up using the motorway. Any such place can also operate CAS planes. for a tiny fraction of the cost...
> 
> I've already in this thread noted the CAS plane I'd like to see but the issue isn't a specific plane, your issue is you're negating CAS planes. Let's get that right first before discussing what exact plane.
> 
> Here are some discussions you can read up on to understand the arguments for and against better:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/whither-now-the-attack-helicopter-problem-for-pa.545613/
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/potential-turbo-prop-for-paf-calidus-b-250.542067/


Specifics is the problem because cost of the helicopter itself is not that much it's mainly the cost of sub-systems ... So what is the overall package we are getting and if get the same overall package then will the cost of CAS aircraft be the same ?

For example A-10 the most successful CAS aircraft costs around 20 million a piece in today's prices and thats too without any ammunition, training and infrastructure cost ... Whereas A10 is an aircraft of the past and do not have latest tech (without additional pods) such as night vision and precision strike capabilities ...


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## cabatli_53

I believe Atak deal will pave the ways for more advanced Atak-2 cooperation in 2020's.

UMTAS missiles firing !








        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## CHACHA"G"

50Million for 1 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Am I gone mad or the price include some thing we don't know?????


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## 帅的一匹

CHACHA"G" said:


> 50Million for 1 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Am I gone mad or the price include some thing we don't know?????


What is the price of AH-1z?


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## HRK

wanglaokan said:


> What is the price of AH-1z?


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ah-1...-sale-to-pakistan.369316/page-56#post-8042114


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## Ahmet Pasha

Atak 2 Insha Allah after T-129 ATAK I


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## dBSPL

Another detail, Pakistani helicopters will include TEI's new turboshaft with 99% probability.

Pakistan will not only get a helicopter, but also an common-engine that will not stick to international restrictions in terms of logistics.

Of course, millimeter-wave radar, infrared-guided missile seekers, as well as many sophisticated subsystems in the logistics will protected from US restrictions. With direct access to the mission computer, the Pakistani army will be able to load its Indigenous ammunitions.

This project will create a long-term cooperation in aviation. A significant portion of the total contract value is also required to provide this common infrastructure. this money will not go to Turkish companies completely, it will contain important off-set.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congrats people
A expensive deal but long term benefits

A deal with Turkey is what is the big picture

As stated the infrastrcture deal is the big plus we did not reviewed earlier makes sense


Choppers $500 million ~ 16.5 Million per Chopper

Weapons $500 million 

Infrastructure/Training/Support $500 million 

Future Cooperation (priceless)

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## python-000

dBSPL said:


> Another detail, Pakistani helicopters will include TEI's new turboshaft with 99% probability.
> 
> Pakistan will not only get a helicopter, but also an common-engine that will not stick to international restrictions in terms of logistics.
> 
> Of course, millimeter-wave radar, infrared-guided missile seekers, as well as many sophisticated subsystems in the logistics will protected from US restrictions. With direct access to the mission computer, the Pakistani army will be able to load its Indigenous ammunitions.
> 
> This project will create a long-term cooperation in aviation. A significant portion of the total contract value is also required to provide this common infrastructure. this money will not go to Turkish companies completely, it will contain important off-set.


Salam Bro, This is really good news for Both of our Beloved Countries BUT do you have any solid proof of this Contract. !!!!


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## dBSPL

@python-000 My brother, you have to wait a few months for the official announcement. At this time only the backstage news.

However, the biggest obstacle to the export of Turkish defence systems or to the sharing of industrial rights with other countries is the obstruction of engine manufacturer countries. For this reasons Pakistan's helicopters will most likely include indigenous engines.

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## mzeeshanfahd

dBSPL said:


> Another detail, Pakistani helicopters will include TEI's new turboshaft with 99% probability.
> 
> Pakistan will not only get a helicopter, but also an common-engine that will not stick to international restrictions in terms of logistics.
> 
> Of course, millimeter-wave radar, infrared-guided missile seekers, as well as many sophisticated subsystems in the logistics will protected from US restrictions. With direct access to the mission computer, the Pakistani army will be able to load its Indigenous ammunitions.
> 
> This project will create a long-term cooperation in aviation. A significant portion of the total contract value is also required to provide this common infrastructure. this money will not go to Turkish companies completely, it will contain important off-set.




what do you mean ...... we want this money to go to turkey ...... "it is no different than Pakistan" ....... it will be used to protect the same nation .....


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mzeeshanfahd said:


> what do you mean ...... we want this money to go to turkey ...... "it is no different than Pakistan" ....... it will be used to protect the same nation .....


I think he's referring to offsets - i.e. TAI taking the $1.5 bn contract with Pakistan and then spending all of that money within Pakistan through investments in Pakistani industries. This helps Pakistan by preventing immediate outflow of foreign currency (USD/Lira) and generating jobs within Pakistan to support the T129. It helps TAI and other Turkish companies by giving them new businesses within Pakistan that can produce parts for less than what it'd cost in Turkey, push exports, etc. Depending on the subsidiary ownership, some of the profit of those companies (in Pakistan) make will return to Turkey.

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## -------

Augmented Reality based maintenance assistance and training of T-129 platform will be handed over to Turkish Armed Forces within next 6 months.

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## -------

According Turkish Minister of Defense, next week Pakistan and Turkey will sign deal.

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## syed_yusuf

Combat-Master said:


> According Turkish Minister of Defense, next week Pakistan and Turkey will sign deal.


Next week contract for t129 or does it includes Corvette


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## -------

syed_yusuf said:


> Next week contract for t129 or does it includes Corvette



Both, Ship and Helicopter.

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## Muhammad Omar

Combat-Master said:


> Both, Ship and Helicopter.



Does these corvette has VLS ?


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## Areesh

Combat-Master said:


> According Turkish Minister of Defense, next week Pakistan and Turkey will sign deal.



So its confirmed now..


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## python-000

dBSPL said:


> @python-000 My brother, you have to wait a few months for the official announcement. At this time only the backstage news.
> 
> However, the biggest obstacle to the export of Turkish defence systems or to the sharing of industrial rights with other countries is the obstruction of engine manufacturer countries. For this reasons Pakistan's helicopters will most likely include indigenous engines.


Thanks Brother for your Regards, I can understand why its taking so much time because engine issue i guess or ma be the TOT.



Combat-Master said:


> According Turkish Minister of Defense, next week Pakistan and Turkey will sign deal.


Can any Turkish bro translate it !


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## Muhammad Omar

Which one Pakistan Navy is getting ???


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Lock the deals up


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## Areesh

Muhammad Omar said:


> Which one Pakistan Navy is getting ???
> 
> View attachment 473189



Upar wali


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## Muhammad Omar

Areesh said:


> Upar wali



Why aren't we getting the one with VLS??


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## Areesh

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we getting the one with VLS??



because guys in PN still are not aware of importance of a good air defense for ships.

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## Muhammad Omar

Areesh said:


> because guys in PN still are not aware of importance of a good air defense for ships.


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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> because guys in PN still are not aware of importance of a good air defense for ships.


Air Defense ships are useless no ship can stop barge of Cruise Missiles. The moment let say India fires 5 Cruise Missile towards our ships or cities even we have Air Defense ships in place more than half Cruise Missiles will hit targets @Muhammad Omar

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> According Turkish Minister of Defense, next week Pakistan and Turkey will sign deal.


@Combat-Master can you provide the exact minute where he mentions the Pakistani contracts?


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## dBSPL

python-000 said:


> Thanks Brother for your Regards, I can understand why its taking so much time because engine issue i guess or ma be the TOT.
> 
> 
> Can any Turkish bro translate it !


from 06:30 :

-There are some general trends in the world, one of which is the habits of importer countries in defense industry. It's hard to break these habits. That is why you have to prove both the technological level of your products and share the results in real battle conditions on the scene.

-After these two issues comes the issue of financal backrounds. Those who come to see our facilities, examine and test the systems and see the capabilities of the TAF are persuasive. Our approach to our friendly and brotherly countries is also moving in a very different atmosphere. In this direction, both the Atak helicopter system and the frigate sales to Pakistan, experiencing significant developments. Insallah, we will hear news about the Atak helicopter deal next week if there is no setback. Also we have come to an important step with some Gulf countries. We hope to have nice news there over the next few months.



Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we getting the one with VLS??


 Both two ships are quite seafarers. The two main differences between the two ships are Endurance (7 days) and ESSM capability. Turkey's essm alternative not ready yet.

i think , two possibilities are possible 1. Pakistan regards increasing the ASW and AD capability with this ship as a primary objective. 2- more unlikely, that there may be a problem with ESSM intake. Would other issue be certified for Pakistan's domestic guided missiles with the MK41 system? and is it possible for the US to approve Chinese ammunition?

But if you ask me, the real reason is, Milgem-Ada a proven platform and all problems from prototype phase to serial production are solved. Milgem-I has not come to the water yet.

Hull 3 and 4 will be built in Karachi. So Pakistan will be a direct part of the Milgem program. Hence, Pakistan shipyards may provide modifications on the same infrastructure. One of them could be a new VLS standart under Pakistan-China or Turko-Pakistan collobration.Both Pakistan and Turkey needs to modernize its fleet to nearly of 2035. For this reason, there are many potential cooperation areas.

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## cabatli_53

After Milgem deal signed, Turkey should strongly introduce TF-2000 AAW destroyer program to Pakistan for joint-production of hull and sensors. That is a huge strategic program requiring multi-national partners shaking hands to reach a common goal with reducing the risks and As far as I know Pakistan Navy has also such a requirement like Turkey.

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## -------

From EFES 2018 Exercise, MILGEM Corvette and all 4 T-129 firing their UMTAS missiles

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## -------

Not related, but I thought it was interesting on the topic of Turkish-Pakistani defence relations. 

In 1982 Pakistan were the first visitors to Aselsans facilities;

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> Not related, but I thought it was interesting on the topic of Turkish-Pakistani defence relations.
> 
> In 1982 Pakistan were the first visitors to Aselsans facilities;


@Oscar in my opinion ... the uniforms here were way better than the weird single shirt piece they have going now for these kinds of interactions.


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## cabatli_53

UMTAS/Mizrak-U

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar in my opinion ... the uniforms here were way better than the weird single shirt piece they have going now for these kinds of interactions.


Someone got a contract, someone made money after paying someone off. That is the focus of all Pakistanis irrespective of class, profession or gender.

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## Armchair

dBSPL said:


> from 06:30 :
> 
> -There are some general trends in the world, one of which is the habits of importer countries in defense industry. It's hard to break these habits. That is why you have to prove both the technological level of your products and share the results in real battle conditions on the scene.
> 
> -After these two issues comes the issue of financal backrounds. Those who come to see our facilities, examine and test the systems and see the capabilities of the TAF are persuasive. Our approach to our friendly and brotherly countries is also moving in a very different atmosphere. In this direction, both the Atak helicopter system and the frigate sales to Pakistan, experiencing significant developments. Insallah, we will hear news about the Atak helicopter deal next week if there is no setback. Also we have come to an important step with some Gulf countries. We hope to have nice news there over the next few months.
> 
> Both two ships are quite seafarers. The two main differences between the two ships are Endurance (7 days) and ESSM capability. Turkey's essm alternative not ready yet.
> 
> i think , two possibilities are possible 1. Pakistan regards increasing the ASW and AD capability with this ship as a primary objective. 2- more unlikely, that there may be a problem with ESSM intake. Would other issue be certified for Pakistan's domestic guided missiles with the MK41 system? and is it possible for the US to approve Chinese ammunition?
> 
> But if you ask me, the real reason is, Milgem-Ada a proven platform and all problems from prototype phase to serial production are solved. Milgem-I has not come to the water yet.
> 
> Hull 3 and 4 will be built in Karachi. So Pakistan will be a direct part of the Milgem program. Hence, Pakistan shipyards may provide modifications on the same infrastructure. One of them could be a new VLS standart under Pakistan-China or Turko-Pakistan collobration.Both Pakistan and Turkey needs to modernize its fleet to nearly of 2035. For this reason, there are many potential cooperation areas.



That is some very significant news. I think you're hinting at:

1. The undisclosed SAM program Pakistan has
2. Qatar will get military protection by Turkey
3. Pakistani AShM on the Ada purchase
4. Atak good news


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## cabatli_53

The Atak deal to be signed will include joint production and ToT. I think Pakistan will produce sections for costumers as well. The complex deals like that is actually choice of Pakistani roadway for attack helicopters. The infrastructure to be established will be used for next deals and Pakistan selected Turkish attack helicopter roadway to replace Cobra’s against US and Chinese products. This selection will be certainly proceeded with Atak-2 helicopters with joint production...

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## BRAVO_

what impress me about trukish deference industry is the 90% exports increase during last 7 years


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## Dreamer.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar in my opinion ... the uniforms here were way better than the weird single shirt piece they have going now for these kinds of interactions.


Nope these uniforms don't look good at all, the single shirt version is better. Matter of opinion.

And btw it's nice to have all this milligemi and vls discussion in army forum.


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## dBSPL

BRAVO_ said:


> what impress me about trukish deference industry is the 90% exports increase during last 7 years


From BVR to high altitude air defenses, from satellite launch vehicles to domestic gps system, the MILDEN submarine program to the TFX project, there are many projects that are wait to be revealed. There is a great mobilization and 90% of Turkish people support these policies. The Turkish defense industry is in the second phase in terms of the localization of subsystems. I mean, it's just the beginning.

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## Zarvan



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## HAIDER

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 473974


50 million a piece with technology transfer , acceptable. If its Turkish made engine. Otherwise 3rd party license to import is unfair deal.

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## TOPGUN

cabatli_53 said:


> The Atak deal to be signed will include joint production and ToT. I think Pakistan will produce sections for costumers as well. The complex deals like that is actually choice of Pakistani roadway for attack helicopters. The infrastructure to be established will be used for next deals and Pakistan selected Turkish attack helicopter roadway to replace Cobra’s against US and Chinese products. This selection will be certainly proceeded with Atak-2 helicopters with joint production...



Great news cabatli_53 brother thanks so much for sharing cheers !!

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## Muhammad Omar

So these TAI T-129 will be made in Pakistan after TOT?? and after getting 30 from Turkey Pakistan can build more locally???


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## Cuirassier

Gotta love the Turks, always 10 steps ahead.


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## Areesh

HAIDER said:


> 50 million a piece with technology transfer , acceptable. If its Turkish made engine. Otherwise 3rd party license to import is unfair deal.



It is with turkish engine as per @dBSPL



Muhammad Omar said:


> So these TAI T-129 will be made in Pakistan after TOT?? and after getting 30 from Turkey Pakistan can build more locally???



Yes to both questions.

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## Pakistansdefender

Finally, is the deal done? 
Great congrats.


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## python-000

Bro, signing ceremony kb tak expected ha !!!


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## KapitaanAli

Any word on the time frame?

Turkish orders are yet to be fulfilled. But if Turkish engines are confirmed for Pakistan, that would make sense, since it'll take a few years anyway.


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## -------

KapitaanAli said:


> Any word on the time frame?
> 
> Turkish orders are yet to be fulfilled. But if Turkish engines are confirmed for Pakistan, that would make sense, since it'll take a few years anyway.



Turkish engines would take years, we are talking minimum 2023...


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## KapitaanAli

Combat-Master said:


> Turkish engines would take years, we are talking minimum 2023...


True. Just hypothesizing since some are sure Pak will get them.
It's unlikely imo. Testing and everything takes time.

Unless it's a localised euro product.


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## -------

KapitaanAli said:


> True. Just hypothesizing since some are sure Pak will get them.
> It's unlikely imo. Testing and everything takes time.
> 
> Unless it's a localised euro product.



Yeah, but you're not the only one. Here's official statement by TEI the developer of turboshaft engine. Just so everyone gets the idea, Turkish engine is a no go for T-129 ATAK-I. Maybe for ATAK-II it'll be available, but even then I don't see first prototype airframes of ATAK-II using Turkish engines. My timeframe was way off too btw, 8 year development period so 2025 should be current deadline on development, like you mentioned certification period for platforms take time too..

*For several projects that have been recently launched by Turkey and are still underway including Original Light Utility Helicopter, ATAK Helicopter and Turkish Utility Helicopter, thrust systems are procured from foreign sources. The Turboshaft Engine Development Project (TEDP) aims to decrease this dependence on foreign sources while enabling domestic production of the engine systems, which constitute one of the most important components of these projects, and increasing the percentage of indigenous production in these projects. In this context,Turboshaft Engine Development Project has officially iniated on 07 February 2017.

The project will be carried out under the leadership of Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (UDI) Sub-Systems Department, under which design, development and testing infrastructure for as turbine engines will be generated in our country on one hand, and the 1400 shp original and national engine with the applicable type certificate will be developed by TEI in order to be integrated into the Original Helicopter, on the other hand.

Turboshaft Engine Development Project will be carried out for 8 years by a team of approximately 250 engineers all of whom are TEI employees serving at TEI's Engineering Offices in Eskisehir, Ankara and Istanbul.

Any future derivatives of the engine may be utilized to power the national platforms such as ATAK and HURKUS. Moreover; core technology of the engine will form the basis for the engine needed for "National Training/Fighter Aircraft - T/FX", and it will be possible to develop the national aircraft engine when needed, upon any necessary technological additions to the capabilities gained under Turboshaft Engine Development Project . *

https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/turboshaft-engine-development-project

I would also like to add that it is very possible that Turkey is emphasizing development of such engines so that engine supplying countries 'industry politics' are more hesitant on Turkey acquiring technology to develop engines, so less likely to embargo sales of engines to third party countries.


*Turkey also has an ambition to develop an indigenous high-output turboshaft engine, and LHTEC has already held discussions with the nation's SSM defence industries under-secretariat about its potential involvement, says Thraen.

“The national engine project is very interesting to us and we definitely have an interest in getting involved in that and supporting it in some way,” he added.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lhtec-aims-for-turkish-assembly-of-cts800-engine-425330/

*

If you have the technology and the knowledge, more countries respect you in that sphere and want to cooperate just so they still have their fingers in the pie.

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## -------

Development of avionics and weapon control systems of T-129, this 'steel bird' could be used to integrate Pakistani weapons. Notice in the background left, helicopter self protection suite incl RWR and RJ which will be available on more advanced 3rd batch of T-129 helicopters

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## Alex John

All the helicopters operates from air bases but does that means that even in war time they will continue to do so ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> Yeah, but you're not the only one. Here's official statement by TEI the developer of turboshaft engine. Just so everyone gets the idea, Turkish engine is a no go for T-129 ATAK-I. Maybe for ATAK-II it'll be available, but even then I don't see first prototype airframes of ATAK-II using Turkish engines. My timeframe was way off too btw, 8 year development period so 2025 should be current deadline on development, like you mentioned certification period for platforms take time too..
> 
> *For several projects that have been recently launched by Turkey and are still underway including Original Light Utility Helicopter, ATAK Helicopter and Turkish Utility Helicopter, thrust systems are procured from foreign sources. The Turboshaft Engine Development Project (TEDP) aims to decrease this dependence on foreign sources while enabling domestic production of the engine systems, which constitute one of the most important components of these projects, and increasing the percentage of indigenous production in these projects. In this context,Turboshaft Engine Development Project has officially iniated on 07 February 2017.
> 
> The project will be carried out under the leadership of Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (UDI) Sub-Systems Department, under which design, development and testing infrastructure for as turbine engines will be generated in our country on one hand, and the 1400 shp original and national engine with the applicable type certificate will be developed by TEI in order to be integrated into the Original Helicopter, on the other hand.
> 
> Turboshaft Engine Development Project will be carried out for 8 years by a team of approximately 250 engineers all of whom are TEI employees serving at TEI's Engineering Offices in Eskisehir, Ankara and Istanbul.
> 
> Any future derivatives of the engine may be utilized to power the national platforms such as ATAK and HURKUS. Moreover; core technology of the engine will form the basis for the engine needed for "National Training/Fighter Aircraft - T/FX", and it will be possible to develop the national aircraft engine when needed, upon any necessary technological additions to the capabilities gained under Turboshaft Engine Development Project . *
> 
> https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/turboshaft-engine-development-project
> 
> I would also like to add that it is very possible that Turkey is emphasizing development of such engines so that engine supplying countries 'industry politics' are more hesitant on Turkey acquiring technology to develop engines, so less likely to embargo sales of engines to third party countries.
> 
> 
> *Turkey also has an ambition to develop an indigenous high-output turboshaft engine, and LHTEC has already held discussions with the nation's SSM defence industries under-secretariat about its potential involvement, says Thraen.
> 
> “The national engine project is very interesting to us and we definitely have an interest in getting involved in that and supporting it in some way,” he added.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lhtec-aims-for-turkish-assembly-of-cts800-engine-425330/
> 
> *
> 
> If you have the technology and the knowledge, more countries respect you in that sphere and want to cooperate just so they still have their fingers in the pie.


IMO the only alternative engine can be a non-ITAR version of the CTS800 made by RR. Otherwise, the PAA had selected and wants the T129 with the current engine (key to the good hot and high performance).


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## python-000



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## Dreamer.

Muhammad Omar said:


> So these TAI T-129 will be made in Pakistan after TOT?? and after getting 30 from Turkey Pakistan can build more locally???


Yes, just like we built more Agostas after getting TOT for the Agosta90B.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the only alternative engine can be a non-ITAR version of the CTS800 made by RR. Otherwise, the PAA had selected and wants the T129 with the current engine (key to the good hot and high performance).


I think we made too much of the engine issue, it wont be a stickler as much as it is assumed when it comes to export approval.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> I think we made too much of the engine issue, it wont be a stickler as much as it is assumed when it comes to export approval.


I agree. Thus far, there hasn't been any sign of the DoD clamping down on third-party sales of ITAR equipment to Pakistan (outside of the stuff that's particularly sensitive). The LHTEC CTS800 would basically fall into that.

But the PAA did state it wants depot-level MRO for the next mainstay attack helicopter (i.e. T129). So it'll be interesting to see if they could get a CTS800 MRO site up at PAC and, more importantly, how much work they can absorb there in the long-run.


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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. Thus far, there hasn't been any sign of the DoD clamping down on third-party sales of ITAR equipment to Pakistan (outside of the stuff that's particularly sensitive). The LHTEC CTS800 would basically fall into that.
> 
> But the PAA did state it wants depot-level MRO for the next mainstay attack helicopter (i.e. T129). So it'll be interesting to see if they could get a CTS800 MRO site up at PAC and, more importantly, how much work they can absorb there in the long-run.


Which engine is being used by Italian attack helicopter and do they have better European engine which we can fit in T-129 ???


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## HAIDER

Pakistan under unofficial US weapon embargo . No AH 1Z. The T129 attack helicopter, developed by TAI under license from the Finmeccanica company AgustaWestland, is powered by the LHTEC CTS800, the commercial and export version of the T800 turboshaft rotary aircraft engine made by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between UK-based Rolls-Royce and US-based Honeywell.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Which engine is being used by Italian attack helicopter and do they have better European engine which we can fit in T-129 ???


The A129 uses an older RR turboshaft engine, but that's way under-powered (which is why Turkey went for the LHTEC-equipped version in the first place). Going for some other European engine will reset the entire cycle by a few years: i.e. integration, testing, certification and then evaluations. There'll also be an added cost to bringing in a new engine. *Basically, the idea that the T129 can use a different engine is not happening.* The alternative (if not Z-10) would be to wait for the ATAK-2 with TEI's turboshaft engine or for a non-ITAR (i.e. no US parts) version of the existing engine by UK's Rolls-Royce.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. Thus far, there hasn't been any sign of the DoD clamping down on third-party sales of ITAR equipment to Pakistan (outside of the stuff that's particularly sensitive). The LHTEC CTS800 would basically fall into that.
> 
> But the PAA did state it wants depot-level MRO for the next mainstay attack helicopter (i.e. T129). So it'll be interesting to see if they could get a CTS800 MRO site up at PAC and, more importantly, how much work they can absorb there in the long-run.


If I am not mistaken we already have a depot level facility for Allison and even for certain PW products. So I see no hurdles here; additionally, the LhTeC engine isn’t a military specific engine and is dual use so it can pass under the nose. Unless the very venomous Indian Lobby decides to act against it and then is able to garner enough support against Turkey.

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## Zulfiqar

Is there a picture of T 129 carrying 8 ATGMs? Please do share. I havent seen one yet.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> If I am not mistaken we already have a depot level facility for Allison and even for certain PW products. So I see no hurdles here; additionally, the LhTeC engine isn’t a military specific engine and is dual use so it can pass under the nose. Unless the very venomous Indian Lobby decides to act against it and then is able to garner enough support against Turkey.


LHTEC isn't just the US, the UK is involved too. 

I think we've made some OK traction in the UK via the AW139s (AgustaWestland), Selex Seaspray AESA radars and the Kelvin Hughes SharpEye. It's not big stuff, but the cumulative value is approaching $500 m. We can push the value up further if we source Selex radars for the MILGEM and Damen OPVs. 

On top of that, the UK also revived the MoU (for defence purchases et. al) and we have some OK soft credibility across the board with the government and armed forces. So we can work with Rolls-Royce for the MRO site. 

But let's say we're a no-body; in that case, the UK can't screw it up for Turkey. It has big multi-billion dollar opportunities at-stake in Turkey, esp. related to the TFX. It'd make zero sense to jeopardize the T129 sale when Rolls-Royce can be a direct beneficiary by selling a MRO site to PAC as well.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> LHTEC isn't just the US, the UK is involved too.
> 
> I think we've made some OK traction in the UK via the AW139s (AgustaWestland), Selex Seaspray AESA radars and the Kelvin Hughes SharpEye. It's not big stuff, but the cumulative value is approaching $500 m. We can push the value up further if we source Selex radars for the MILGEM and Damen OPVs.
> 
> On top of that, the UK also revived the MoU (for defence purchases et. al) and we have some OK soft credibility across the board with the government and armed forces. So we can work with Rolls-Royce for the MRO site.
> 
> But let's say we're a no-body; in that case, the UK can't screw it up for Turkey. It has big multi-billion dollar opportunities at-stake in Turkey, esp. related to the TFX. It'd make zero sense to jeopardize the T129 sale when Rolls-Royce can be a direct beneficiary by selling a MRO site to PAC as well.


That is the actual advantage we have. Big ticket projects like the TFx ensure that suppliers will still bend over for the Turks; and hence we have now a third party supply source for our needs.

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## dBSPL

Zulfiqar said:


> Is there a picture of T 129 carrying 8 ATGMs? Please do share. I havent seen one yet.


Maximum capacity of the T129Bx helicopter underwing pylons 4 x 661lb (4 x 300 kg)
For example LAU61 with 19 hydra rocket, the total weight is around 480lb. It is about the same weight as the 4 Umtas + launcher. The total weapon load can change by the profile of the task required, the duration of the mission required, the task altitude profile, as well as many variables. However, CIRIT is a much more cost-effective solution against the light armored targets and asymetric targets.


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## Zulfiqar

dBSPL said:


> Maximum capacity of the T129Bx helicopter underwing pylons 4 x 661lb (4 x 300 kg)
> For example LAU61 with 19 hydra rocket, the total weight is around 480lb. It is about the same weight as the 4 Umtas + launcher. The total weapon load can change by the profile of the task required, the duration of the mission required, the task altitude profile, as well as many variables. However, CIRIT is a much more cost-effective solution against the light armored targets and asymetric targets.



Can you clarify? How many ATGMs can be loaded up on each side in Anti tank profile?


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## dBSPL

Zulfiqar said:


> Can you clarify? How many ATGMs can be loaded up on each side in Anti tank profile?


Theoretically, four ATGM launchers can be installed, according to the maximum carrying capacity and wing openness.


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## -------

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/996388185725964290

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Best T-129 Video !

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## Bratva

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> LHTEC isn't just the US, the UK is involved too.
> 
> I think we've made some OK traction in the UK via the AW139s (AgustaWestland), Selex Seaspray AESA radars and the Kelvin Hughes SharpEye. It's not big stuff, but the cumulative value is approaching $500 m. We can push the value up further if we source Selex radars for the MILGEM and Damen OPVs.
> 
> On top of that, the UK also revived the MoU (for defence purchases et. al) and we have some OK soft credibility across the board with the government and armed forces. So we can work with Rolls-Royce for the MRO site.
> 
> But let's say we're a no-body; in that case, the UK can't screw it up for Turkey. It has big multi-billion dollar opportunities at-stake in Turkey, esp. related to the TFX. It'd make zero sense to jeopardize the T129 sale when Rolls-Royce can be a direct beneficiary by selling a MRO site to PAC as well.



PNS Himmat has Kelvin Hughes Command & Control consoles (seen it when I visited PNS Himmat) and AFAIK, other Azmat class ships has also Kelvin hughes C&C consoles

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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> LHTEC isn't just the US, the UK is involved too.
> 
> I think we've made some OK traction in the UK via the AW139s (AgustaWestland), Selex Seaspray AESA radars and the Kelvin Hughes SharpEye. It's not big stuff, but the cumulative value is approaching $500 m. We can push the value up further if we source Selex radars for the MILGEM and Damen OPVs.
> 
> On top of that, the UK also revived the MoU (for defence purchases et. al) and we have some OK soft credibility across the board with the government and armed forces. So we can work with Rolls-Royce for the MRO site.
> 
> But let's say we're a no-body; in that case, the UK can't screw it up for Turkey. It has big multi-billion dollar opportunities at-stake in Turkey, esp. related to the TFX. It'd make zero sense to jeopardize the T129 sale when Rolls-Royce can be a direct beneficiary by selling a MRO site to PAC as well.



Turkey is a regional MRO hub for CTS800 engine. Turkey's potential for buying more CTS800 engine is greater than that of Pakistan. 

Turkey;​
already has a platform which they are marketing with CTS800 engine, T-129.
has ambitions on developing helicopters with CTS800 as its chosen power plant.
is developing her own version of the CTS800 engine (almost exact copy).

Turkey alone has requirement for over 100 CTS800 engines, so it makes sense to invest in Turkey.

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## T-123456

Looks like Erdogan himself is going to announce the sale of 30 T-129 Attack helicopters to Pakistan in a couple of days.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> Turkey is a regional MRO hub for CTS800 engine. Turkey's potential for buying more CTS800 engine is greater than that of Pakistan.
> 
> Turkey;​
> already has a platform which they are marketing with CTS800 engine, T-129.
> has ambitions on developing helicopters with CTS800 as its chosen power plant.
> is developing her own version of the CTS800 engine (almost exact copy).
> Turkey alone has requirement for over 100 CTS800 engines, so it makes sense to invest in Turkey.


That's true, but the Pak Army just wants d-level MRO. I think their idea is that the T129 fleet will gradually be built-up over the next several decades so it makes sense to localize as much support as possible.

That said, d-level MRO just means being able to open the engine up. The actual parts still have to come from somewhere, and I think TEI will be the main supplier.



T-123456 said:


> Looks like Erdogan himself is going to announce the sale of 30 T-129 Attack helicopters to Pakistan in a couple of days.


Mr. Turan Oghuz said the deal has already been signed, it just needs to be announced now.

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## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's true, but the Pak Army just wants d-level MRO. I think their idea is that the T129 fleet will gradually be built-up over the next several decades so it makes sense to localize as much support as possible.
> 
> That said, d-level MRO just means being able to open the engine up. The actual parts still have to come from somewhere, and I think TEI will be the main supplier.


How long before the Turkish engine you think?
It would make things much easier.


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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's true, but the Pak Army just wants d-level MRO. I think their idea is that the T129 fleet will gradually be built-up over the next several decades so it makes sense to localize as much support as possible.
> 
> That said, d-level MRO just means being able to open the engine up. The actual parts still have to come from somewhere, and I think TEI will be the main supplier.
> 
> 
> Mr. Turan Oghuz said the deal has already been signed, it just needs to be announced now.



In that case I don't think it'll be an issue...


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## Zarvan

PM of Pakistan has arrived in Turkey to attend OIC meeting


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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/997505037290164224
*https://www.yenisafak.com/en/world/turkey-to-export-30-atak-helicopters-to-pakistan-3401647*

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## BHarwana

*Turkey, Pakistan sign $1.5 billion deal for 30 ATAK helicopters*

Last Updated On *18 May,2018* 04:16 pm





The deal is Turkey's biggest defense export in history.
(Web Desk) - Turkey will export 30 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan after both the countries signed a $1.5 billion deal, reported _*Yeni Safak*_.

The deal is Turkey’s biggest defense export in history. According to Turkey’s Undersecretary for Defense Industries Ismail Demir, the deal would be officially announced next week.

In November 2017, Pakistan’s defense minister said that 90 percent of the sales period of the 30 ATAK helicopters and four warships was completed, and that the payment options were being worked on.

Turkish and Pakistani heads of state are expected to officially sign the deal at a ceremony.

As per the news report, the “T129 ATAK" Multirole Combat Helicopter has been optimized for specific hot & high performance requirements of the Turkish Armed Forces.

The tandem seat, twin-engine, NATO-interoperable attack helicopter is optimized for attack, armed reconnaissance, and precision strike and deep strike missions at day and night in all environments and regardless of weather conditions.


https://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/440138-Turkey-Pakistan-sign-deal-ATAK-helicopters

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## YeBeWarned

@cabatli_53 @T-123456 @Combat-Master Congratulations brothers

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## Imran Khan

so finally its truth ?

if iits true when we can see first pakitani t129?


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## BHarwana

Imran Khan said:


> so finally its truth ?



It was truth all along.
Mi35m
T129 
and 
Z-10
they all are coming just wait.

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## Zarvan

BHarwana said:


> *Turkey, Pakistan sign $1.5 billion deal for 30 ATAK helicopters*
> 
> Last Updated On *18 May,2018* 04:16 pm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The deal is Turkey's biggest defense export in history.
> (Web Desk) - Turkey will export 30 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan after both the countries signed a $1.5 billion deal, reported _*Yeni Safak*_.
> 
> The deal is Turkey’s biggest defense export in history. According to Turkey’s Undersecretary for Defense Industries Ismail Demir, the deal would be officially announced next week.
> 
> In November 2017, Pakistan’s defense minister said that 90 percent of the sales period of the 30 ATAK helicopters and four warships was completed, and that the payment options were being worked on.
> 
> Turkish and Pakistani heads of state are expected to officially sign the deal at a ceremony.
> 
> As per the news report, the “T129 ATAK" Multirole Combat Helicopter has been optimized for specific hot & high performance requirements of the Turkish Armed Forces.
> 
> The tandem seat, twin-engine, NATO-interoperable attack helicopter is optimized for attack, armed reconnaissance, and precision strike and deep strike missions at day and night in all environments and regardless of weather conditions.
> 
> 
> https://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/440138-Turkey-Pakistan-sign-deal-ATAK-helicopters



Don't be so happy they are still posting the stuff which is making rounds on social media no signing has taken place or announced yet


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## BHarwana

Zarvan said:


> Don't be so happy they are still posting the stuff which is making rounds on social media no signing has taken place or announced yet



I am not talking about social media the surge in defense budget is the main indicator. Yes it will be more confirmed once they officially announce it.


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## MBT 3000

nice


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## -SINAN-

*Pakistan to buy 30 gunship helicopters from Turkey*
Pakistan, Turkey agree on sale of 30 T129 ATAK helicopters, developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries, AgustaWestland






By Goksel Yildirim

ANKARA

Ankara and Islamabad have signed a deal for the sale of 30 Turkish attack helicopters, *according to an election manifesto the ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party announced Thursday. *

In a November 2017 interview with the Anadolu Agency, Pakistani Minister for Defense Production Rana Tanveer Hussain said his country planned to procure 30 attack helicopters and four naval ships from Turkey.

Hussain revealed that Pakistan was interested in the T129 ATAK helicopter, developed by the Turkish Aerospace Industries and the Italy-based AgustaWestland.

The gunship helicopter was added to the inventory of the Turkish Armed Forces in 2014.

On March 23, T129 ATAK helicopters from Turkey participated in a fly-past ceremony in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/pakistan-to-buy-30-gunship-helicopters-from-turkey/1156406

Anadolu Agency is a state-run news agency of the Turkish government. The most reliable source till this date.

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## blinder

An election manifesto...

I am sure that TUSAS TAI will announce it on one of their social media channels. So far, only the cooperation deal with KAI Kazkhstan appears there:
https://twitter.com/TUSASTAI


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## OguzSenturk

blinder said:


> An election manifesto...
> 
> I am sure that TUSAS TAI will announce it on one of their social media channels. So far, only the cooperation deal with KAI Kazkhstan appears there:
> https://twitter.com/TUSASTAI



You are right. We should take this as a fake news, until the opposite is proven so.


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1000878020146626560

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## muhammadali233

When they were in town

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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


> When they were in town
> View attachment 477114


They are back in town and being used


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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> They are back in town and being used


Used in what, can you elaborate?


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## syed_yusuf

How many ah-1f does paa have ?


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## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> Used in what, can you elaborate?


Reports are that Z-10 returned to Pakistan after few improvements. Now reports suggest they may have been used along Baluchistan Afghanistan Border to send some gifts to ISIS dumbos


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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> Reports are that Z-10 returned to Pakistan after few improvements. Now reports suggest they may have been used along Baluchistan Afghanistan Border to send some gifts to ISIS dumbos


The ones in picture are T129, not Z-10.


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## Zulfiqar

Game.Invade said:


> The ones in picture are T129, not Z-10.



Why are there two of them. I thought only one came for testing in pakistan.


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## AMG_12

Zulfiqar said:


> Why are there two of them. I thought only one came for testing in pakistan.


They attended this years 23rd March Parade. Surf the forum for more pictures from their display.


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## python-000

Dose T-129 coming from Turkey with TOT !!!
or we just buy 30


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## Path-Finder

Game.Invade said:


> The ones in picture are T129, not Z-10.


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## -------

python-000 said:


> Dose T-129 coming from Turkey with TOT !!!
> or we just buy 30


 
We don't know, there hasn't been much details released..


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## HAIDER




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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> Reports are that Z-10 returned to Pakistan after few improvements. Now reports suggest they may have been used along Baluchistan Afghanistan Border to send some gifts to ISIS dumbos


Zarvan, Z10 deal is dead for now and for coming few years. 

Z10 not only had engine issues, but its canon was prone to getting jammed, and on couple of occasions the missile didnt fired after command given. 

So engine and the gun were major problems which couldnt be resolved in time and army went with T129s. 

So T129s, Mi35s and Zulus are the future fleet assets.

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## TaimiKhan

Few weeks old pic of T129 in Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

TaimiKhan said:


> Zarvan, Z10 deal is dead for now and for coming few years.
> 
> Z10 not only had engine issues, but its canon was prone to getting jammed, and on couple of occasions the missile didnt fired after command given.
> 
> So engine and the gun were major problems which couldnt be resolved in time and army went with T129s.
> 
> So T129s, Mi35s and Zulus are the future fleet assets.


Yes Z-10 had issues and early last year we returned them but few months back they came back I don't know with what improvements but they came back my guess is they most likely came up with new engine the WZ-15. What I know is right now Z-10 is being tested in real situations. Even I am confused about How many helicopters we are going for and failing to understand Army leadership mindset but Z-10 is again under going testing.

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## AMG_12

Zarvan said:


> Yes Z-10 had issues and early last year we returned them but few months back they came back I don't know with what improvements but they came back my guess is they most likely came up with new engine the WZ-15. What I know is right now Z-10 is being tested in real situations. Even I am confused about How many helicopters we are going for and failing to understand Army leadership mindset but Z-10 is again under going testing.


Someone claimed they didn't leave in first place. WZ-15? are you sure? they just went to China, changed the engine and came back flying like nothing happened? I don't think you understand how change of engines work. It's not some Pakistani Mistry (mechanic) who just changes a car engine overnight.

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## TaimiKhan

Zarvan said:


> Yes Z-10 had issues and early last year we returned them but few months back they came back I don't know with what improvements but they came back my guess is they most likely came up with new engine the WZ-15. What I know is right now Z-10 is being tested in real situations. Even I am confused about How many helicopters we are going for and failing to understand Army leadership mindset but Z-10 is again under going testing.


Well for now its dead, totally dead. T129 final, they r coming, just shared a pic of 1 which is in Pakistan. 

Z10 returned and no deal.


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## Liquidmetal

So far there has been a news blackout about the Zulus, I assume they are on track to be delivered as per the T&Cs of the contract and license of approval by the US. However, I have not read any news on how these birds were selected by the army, when and where these birds tested like the Z10s and the T129?


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## AMG_12

Liquidmetal said:


> So far there has been a news blackout about the Zulus, I assume they are on track to be delivered as per the T&Cs of the contract and license of approval by the US. However, I have not read any news on how these birds were selected by the army, when and where these birds tested like the Z10s and the T129?


They weren't tested in Pakistan. We just bought it keeping in view Cobras legacy in PAA, its use by USMC in Afghanistan as its battle proven


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## Zarvan

Game.Invade said:


> Someone claimed they didn't leave in first place. WZ-15? are you sure? they just went to China, changed the engine and came back flying like nothing happened? I don't think you understand how change of engines work. It's not some Pakistani Mistry (mechanic) who just changes a car engine overnight.


That is my guess may be you are right but what I have heard is they were returned but after few months Z-10 was back. Even I am confused if T-129 is coming and order already placed what is the point of having Z-10 being tested. It could be for China also. May China wants its helicopter to pass the tests in worst conditions and we offer those conditions. From most hot temperature on face of the earth to an enemy which often needs gift from these helicopters. If they pass our tests it could help them sell to other countries if not Pakistan


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## dBSPL

Pakistan's defense minister Rana Tanvir Hussain said , Pakistan's planning to buy 4 Milgem Corvette and 30 Atak Helicopter, also Turkey evaluate to purchase of JF-17 fighter jets, that AA review. So behind closed doors very serious collaborations could be on desk.

https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/turkiye/pa...helikopteri-ve-gemisi-almayi-planliyor/979523

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## muhammadali233

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan's defense minister Rana Tanvir Hussain said , Pakistan's planning to buy 4 Milgem Corvette and 30 Atak Helicopter, also Turkey evaluate to purchase of JF-17 fighter jets, that AA review. So behind closed doors very serious collaborations could be on desk.
> 
> https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/turkiye/pa...helikopteri-ve-gemisi-almayi-planliyor/979523


It could be a very sane decision IMO to replace aging Talons (or CF-5)with JFT B
What do you lot think? As the fate of F-35 seems a bit dull atm


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## dBSPL

muhammadali233 said:


> It could be a very sane decision IMO to replace aging Talons (or CF-5)with JFT B
> What do you lot think? As the fate of F-35 seems a bit dull atm


Israel lobby works well but Turkey will take its own F35s. Turkey's hand is not empty.

But Turkey has to create a new plan. At present, TAF's logistics is almost entirely dependent on the US . This situation starting to damage national interests.

There's a 10-year calendar for TX and light attack jet. FX's calendar minumum 5 years more . There is a need for a stop-gap solution and an action to initiate the change in air forces.

As Pakistan's defense minister said, JF-17 can take interest from Turkey. Because we have a chance to advance our own avionics over Pakistan' jet without any restrictions.

If i returned to the subject of T129-P, this helicopter program a very important step for the integration of aviation Pakistan and Turkey. It has the potential to create many opportunities.

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## 帅的一匹

Zarvan said:


> That is my guess may be you are right but what I have heard is they were returned but after few months Z-10 was back. Even I am confused if T-129 is coming and order already placed what is the point of having Z-10 being tested. It could be for China also. May China wants its helicopter to pass the tests in worst conditions and we offer those conditions. From most hot temperature on face of the earth to an enemy which often needs gift from these helicopters. If they pass our tests it could help them sell to other countries if not Pakistan


I think Z10 went back to home. The deal is dead as of now.


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## ziaulislam

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan's defense minister Rana Tanvir Hussain said , Pakistan's planning to buy 4 Milgem Corvette and 30 Atak Helicopter, also Turkey evaluate to purchase of JF-17 fighter jets, that AA review. So behind closed doors very serious collaborations could be on desk.
> 
> https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/turkiye/pa...helikopteri-ve-gemisi-almayi-planliyor/979523


why would turkey buy thunders, absolutely no need

unless turkey wants a heavily modified thunder with its own avionics radar and weapons to replace its f-5s yeah it would make some sense but why not simply build more f-16s than

so it makes no sense

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## -------

ziaulislam said:


> why would turkey buy thunders, absolutely no need
> 
> unless turkey wants a heavily modified thunder with its own avionics radar and weapons to replace its f-5s yeah it would make some sense but why not simply build more f-16s than
> 
> so it makes no sense



I think it makes more sense that Turkey's TX project replaces T38 Talons and F-5/2000.







But, sometimes a political message is required. Pak/Chin JF-17 would be perfect for that.

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## HAIDER

Combat-Master said:


> I think it makes more sense that Turkey's TX project replaces T38 Talons and F-5/2000.
> 
> View attachment 477697
> 
> 
> But, sometimes a political message is required. Pak/Chin JF-17 would be perfect for that.


Very hot design for both training and COIN operations . Russian Yak series ...


----------



## Path-Finder

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan's defense minister Rana Tanvir Hussain said , Pakistan's planning to buy 4 Milgem Corvette and 30 Atak Helicopter, also Turkey evaluate to purchase of JF-17 fighter jets, that AA review. So behind closed doors very serious collaborations could be on desk.
> 
> https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/turkiye/pa...helikopteri-ve-gemisi-almayi-planliyor/979523



What will Turkey do with JF-17? Turkey is the largest operators of F16's outside the US!



Game.Invade said:


> Someone claimed they didn't leave in first place. WZ-15? are you sure? they just went to China, changed the engine and came back flying like nothing happened? I don't think you understand how change of engines work. It's not some Pakistani Mistry (mechanic) who just changes a car engine overnight.


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## Sine Nomine

TaimiKhan said:


> Few weeks old pic of T129 in Pakistan.
> View attachment 477610


Are you sure sir?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

TaimiKhan said:


> Few weeks old pic of T129 in Pakistan.
> View attachment 477610


Its no Apache but still a beast...

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## -------

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1005398134703509504


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## Reichsmarschall

how good is this copter compared to Apaches?


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## Armchair

Turkey could buy JF-17s as a way to diversify their fleet, that is completely dependent on NATO. The very low cost and maintenance friendly is ideal for operations in Syria, where NATO can easily warn the PKK when F-16s are in the air. 

A country needs to plan for all eventualities, and Turkish F-16s are unable to lock-on to NATO warplanes. Turkey also has an opportunity to put all its electronics, weapons and gears it has developed in-house on a platform like the JFT. 

As a stop-gap LIFT, they could also use the JF-17B. With an equal number of JFT single and dual seaters, they would have an ideal mix for strike missions into Syria and Iraq, as well as an aircraft that its traditional adversaries like Greece knows nothing about.

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## OguzSenturk

Armchair said:


> Turkish F-16s are unable to lock-on to NATO warplanes


That is a fake news. Turkish F-16 can even lock-on another Turkish F-16 if the pilot wants. There is no technicial problem to do that.

Btw Turkish F-16s locked-on Greek F-16s hundreds of times during dog-fights above Aegean sea.

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## Ali_Baba

> A country needs to plan for all eventualities, and Turkish F-16s are unable to lock-on to NATO warplanes. Turkey also has an opportunity to put all its electronics, weapons and gears it has developed in-house on a platform like the JFT.



That would be an interesting option for PAF, ie a pure turkish "semi-western" avionics suite(to essentially replace the original option of a French one that PAF was originally interested in) with integration of western systems including the possible Meteor and existing PAF weapon systems. ie, bring capabilities to PAF that are not currently available and offer potential export opportunities for countries who want easier integration into their armed forces.

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## Armchair

Aselsan AESA radar, EW pod, targeting pod, avionics suite...

The Iraqis found out how their US ally slipped them printers that gave away vital information during war. TAF found out from a crashed plane "bugs" planted by their "ally". What makes anyone believe that there are no bugs hiding in the million or so code on an F-16? Bugs today are so tiny they are impossible to comb out from something as complex and large as an aircraft. We can agree to disagree but I do believe that F-16s will be compromised in some way or another. 

Even if they are not. Even then, its not wise for Turkey to put all its eggs on the NATO basket anymore, given that NATO is today the biggest financier and trainer of terrorism against Turkey.


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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> Aselsan AESA radar, EW pod, targeting pod, avionics suite...
> 
> The Iraqis found out how their US ally slipped them printers that gave away vital information during war. TAF found out from a crashed plane "bugs" planted by their "ally". What makes anyone believe that there are no bugs hiding in the million or so code on an F-16? Bugs today are so tiny they are impossible to comb out from something as complex and large as an aircraft. We can agree to disagree but I do believe that F-16s will be compromised in some way or another.
> 
> Even if they are not. Even then, its not wise for Turkey to put all its eggs on the NATO basket anymore, given that NATO is today the biggest financier and trainer of terrorism against Turkey.



While the diversification argument can be made for countries including Turkey, you lose any any credibility when posting made up facts, such as unable to target other NATO aircraft or somehow TuAF would be able to operate JF-17s over Syria without the others knowing and tracking their exact whereabouts. TuAF for all we know already might inform both the Russians and Americans of any operation beforehand. 

As for the bugs in American equipment that seem to bug us so much, it doesnt seem like is has bothered TuAF (and any other AF for that matter) too much concern that would have kept them from flying those planes and even buying new upcoming ones (with even more bugs!).


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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> While the diversification argument can be made for countries including Turkey, you lose any any credibility when posting made up facts, such as unable to target other NATO aircraft or somehow TuAF would be able to operate JF-17s over Syria without the others knowing and tracking their exact whereabouts. TuAF for all we know already might inform both the Russians and Americans of any operation beforehand.
> 
> As for the bugs in American equipment that seem to bug us so much, it doesnt seem like is has bothered TuAF (and any other AF for that matter) too much concern that would have kept them from flying those planes and even buying new upcoming ones (with even more bugs!).



How do you know what bothers TuAF or not? Do they wear their hearts on their sleeve and declare all their secret vulnerabilities? You sir, destroy your own credibility by making such broad brush, know-it-all statements.

Its my opinion that if the US wishes, TuAF won't be able to utilize their F-16s to target NATO warplanes. You can claim it is wrong, and if you can prove it, I'll accept. But if you can't, then sorry, that's just what I think.

Now, you've sadly gotten to the point of making up fake scarecrows and beating them up. Drowning men clutch at straws it seems. I never claimed "somehow TuAF would be able to operate JF-17s over Syria without the others knowing and tracking their exact whereabouts". What does that bit of writing even mean? What JF-17s do not have is a NATO supply chain requirement. Nor does it have those specific vulnerability to bugs and other backdoor issues.

Does that help you understand? Do you need further explanations of my statements? What are you trying to do really, spoil another thread? If you have some personal issue with me, do save the rest of the forum.


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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> The very low cost and maintenance friendly is ideal for operations in Syria, where NATO can easily warn the PKK when F-16s are in the air.



Kindly tell me what you meant by this statement and how operating JF-17s would change and your assertion about TuAF and NATO?

As for TuAF sentiments, how do you know if does bother them? Anyways, my point was lets make up technical facts to prove a point. A teacher would agree to that, correct?


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## dBSPL

dBSPL said:


> 1- LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft ( first variant was developed for US RAH-66 project )
> 2- 1400 shp Indigenous turboshaft https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/turbosaft-motor-gelistirme-projesi
> 3- Licensed production, Tei T700-GE-701D ( end of 2018 ) https://www.tei.com.tr/dosyalar/dosya/dosya_02122015103433.png



1400 shp Indigenous turboshaft core, first start up

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1005882635988676609

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## dBSPL

Atak turboshaft engine will be domestic production, most probably after 2020.
As I have already shared here, it is likely that the Pakistani helicopters will have indigenous 1400 shp engine.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1007035066990686209

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## -------

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1011214713018048513
Pay special notice to localization, Turboshaft engine and 20mm Cannon.

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## Beast

Combat-Master said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1011214713018048513
> Pay special notice to localization, Turboshaft engine and 20mm Cannon.


May I know how long will it takes for the localization of turboshaft?


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## ghazi52

*AhmAd IbrAhim*‏ @AhmAdTipu7 

T129 ATAK popping up flare. an awesome shot

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## Reichsmarschall

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017085517601607680

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## -------

Beast said:


> May I know how long will it takes for the localization of turboshaft?



In 3 years the TS1400 engines will be fitted to T625 testbed helicopter to be certified.


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## cabatli_53

Atak deal signed with Pakistan. SSB İsmail Demir announced news via twiter. The deal contains 30 T-129 Atak helicopters including training, spare parts...etc

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## Bratva

cabatli_53 said:


> Atak deal signed with Pakistan. SSB İsmail Demir announced news via twiter. The deal contains 30 T-129 Atak helicopters including training, spare parts...etc



Any details about the munitions ?


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## BHarwana

cabatli_53 said:


> Atak deal signed with Pakistan. SSB İsmail Demir announced news via twiter. The deal contains 30 T-129 Atak helicopters including training, spare parts...etc


More details are coming in.

@Bratva details will appear here link in the tweet will be updated in some time.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017668715834433537

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## cabatli_53

Bratva said:


> Any details about the munitions ?



According to AA, The deal contains munition package but It has not been revealed yet. Most probably, It is UMTAS and Cirit munitions in package.

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## Areesh

cabatli_53 said:


> Atak deal signed with Pakistan. SSB İsmail Demir announced news via twiter. The deal contains 30 T-129 Atak helicopters including training, spare parts...etc



MashaAllah

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## -------

cabatli_53 said:


> According to AA, The deal contains munition package but It has not been revealed yet. Most probably, It is UMTAS and Cirit munitions in package.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Atak deal signed with Pakistan. SSB İsmail Demir announced news via twiter. The deal contains 30 T-129 Atak helicopters including training, spare parts...etc


@Oscar


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar


I think we were all expecting it to go through. Hopefully they are able to find a AAM solution for the ATAK to be truly an all round threat to both armour and low flying helicopters on the battlefield.

A wing mounted igla launcher would go a long way.


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## AKINCI

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017757505726894082
Cost of contract is 1.5 billion $.
First chopper will be delivered 3-4 months later.
Turkey has become 4th attack helicopter exporter in the world.
T-129 has become quickest exported attack helicopter according to entrance date of service.

I hope that they will serve well for brother Pakistan Army.

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## OguzSenturk

Atak can carry stinger under it's wings for AA missions


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> I think we were all expecting it to go through. Hopefully they are able to find a AAM solution for the ATAK to be truly an all round threat to both armour and low flying helicopters on the battlefield.
> 
> A wing mounted igla launcher would go a long way.


Denel had fitted the A-Darter to the Rooivalk. 

If we pick-up the A-Darter for the JF-17, could add it for the ATAK too (scale, justify local production of the AAM).

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Denel had fitted the A-Darter to the Rooivalk.
> 
> If we pick-up the A-Darter for the JF-17, could add it for the ATAK too (scale, justify local production of the AAM).


The roolivak was a pretty heavy lifting chopper.. whether the stubby wings on the ATAK could take this load is debatable.

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## OguzSenturk

AKINCI said:


> First chopper will be delivered 3-4 months later.



If so, these babies will enjoy Pakistan airspace after 3-4 months

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## Indus Pakistan

Oscar said:


> truly an all round threat to both armour and low flying helicopters on the battlefield.


Let's accept the reality. These or other choppers with PA will not face any armour or heli threats. The only place where this could happen is on the eastern front against India. Such a scenario is highly unlikely with the nuclear deterant in place and if things went pear shaped then given India's massive numbers the matter would be resolved by nukes. Not few Ataks helis.

However theses choppers will go straight into action to tackle insurgencies. Something the Turks have similar experiance against PKK in much similiar geography to what we have on our western regions. I expect these choppers will help secure CPEC in Balochistan and provide the muscle on the Durand Line etc. For that they are ideal.


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## SQ8

Kaptaan said:


> Let's accept the reality. These or other choppers with PA will not face any armour or heli threats. The only place where this could happen is on the eastern front against India. Such a scenario is highly unlikely with the nuclear deterant in place and if things went pear shaped then given India's massive numbers the matter would be resolved by nukes. Not few Ataks helis.
> 
> However theses choppers will go straight into action to tackle insurgencies. Something the Turks have similar experiance against PKK in much similiar geography to what we have on our western regions. I expect these choppers will help secure CPEC in Balochistan and provide the muscle on the Durand Line etc. For that they are ideal.


We rely on the nuke threat too much sometimes.

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## Armchair

I hope they buy some JF-17s in lieu of the T-129s. quid pro quo. Why not F-16s? - Turkey cannot actually produce F-16s, it needs most critical parts from the US including Knocked down kits. Also, has had issues with bugs and back door security concerns.


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## Indus Pakistan

Oscar said:


> We rely on the nuke threat too much sometimes


Because that is the* only* thing that stops the billion plus horde on our east from crossing the Radcliffe Line. You hardly think that the fleet of outdated tanks, fleet of even more outdated M113 APCs, few F-16s are holding India back do you? The reality is nukes are Pakistan's first and last line of defence. Rest is just glitter and for show.

In personal training there are two things that matter. Strength and endurance. Meaning you got to have the staying power. Even if you overlook the massive disparity in conventional forces in India's favour Pakistan would not be able to sustain a war longer then 28 days. Fuel would run out. Money would run out. Ummphh. Gone. spent.

Thus the shield, the only shield that keeps India at bay is the nuke shield. Not out outdated collection of junk. However Pakistan as you know faces multiple internal threats from insurgencies. That is the real threat that is gnawing away at Pakistan to the point it has scared away investment. CPEC is a lifeline. These Atak choppers wil;l give Pakistan a ideal platform to go after these insurgent threats.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Kaptaan said:


> Because that is the* only* thing that stops the billion plus horde on our east from crossing the Radcliffe Line. You hardly think that the fleet of outdated tanks, fleet of even more outdated M113 APCs, few F-16s are holding India back do you? The reality is nukes are Pakistan's first and last line of defence. Rest is just glitter and for show.
> 
> In personal training there are two things that matter. Strength and endurance. Meaning you got to have the staying power. Even if you overlook the massive disparity in conventional forces in India's favour Pakistan would not be able to sustain a war longer then 28 days. Fuel would run out. Money would run out. Ummphh. Gone. spent.
> 
> Thus the shield, the only shield that keeps India at bay is the nuke shield. Not out outdated collection of junk. However Pakistan as you know faces multiple internal threats from insurgencies. That is the real threat that is gnawing away at Pakistan to the point it has scared away investment. CPEC is a lifeline. These Atak choppers wil;l give Pakistan a ideal platform to go after these insurgent threats.


The issue isn't only that the nukes would stop them, but that when one relies purely on nukes, they come off as a pariah (albeit, in Pakistan's case an even bigger pariah) and the risk where India 'calls the bluff' and you fail to do anything because you're afraid to cross lines. With conventional deterrence, you can deter -- or at least interdict -- adventures and throw the spotlight back onto the enemy for being not just an aggressor, but a failed aggressor (e.g. think of the PAF's very first kill).

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## SQ8

Kaptaan said:


> Because that is the* only* thing that stops the billion plus horde on our east from crossing the Radcliffe Line. You hardly think that the fleet of outdated tanks, fleet of even more outdated M113 APCs, few F-16s are holding India back do you? The reality is nukes are Pakistan's first and last line of defence. Rest is just glitter and for show.
> 
> In personal training there are two things that matter. Strength and endurance. Meaning you got to have the staying power. Even if you overlook the massive disparity in conventional forces in India's favour Pakistan would not be able to sustain a war longer then 28 days. Fuel would run out. Money would run out. Ummphh. Gone. spent.
> 
> Thus the shield, the only shield that keeps India at bay is the nuke shield. Not out outdated collection of junk. However Pakistan as you know faces multiple internal threats from insurgencies. That is the real threat that is gnawing away at Pakistan to the point it has scared away investment. CPEC is a lifeline. These Atak choppers wil;l give Pakistan a ideal platform to go after these insurgent threats.


There is no doubting the intent of the enemy. But are we neglecting that they aren’t working day and night to try and remove the nuke barrier that keeps them from carrying this out?

The ATAKs are coming for an insurgency that is all wrapped up as such. The actual effort now lies in urban areas and in other placed where religious extremism infects us.. everyone has one nutcase cousin or uncle or friend now; no ATAK will fix that problem using its cannons.. as it will only create more nutcases.

The true focus of all weapons will always be the east.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> There is no doubting the intent of the enemy. But are we neglecting that they aren’t working day and night to try and remove the nuke barrier that keeps them from carrying this out?
> 
> The ATAKs are coming for an insurgency that is all wrapped up as such. The actual effort now lies in urban areas and in other placed where religious extremism infects us.. everyone has one nutcase cousin or uncle or friend now; no ATAK will fix that problem using its cannons.. as it will only create more nutcases.
> 
> The true focus of all weapons will always be the east.


Besides the validated high-altitude ops capability of the ATAK (decent for interdicting a surgical strike along the LOC if a few are stationed in the area with an air assault unit w/light commandos), this deal could also open up the route of PAC-Turkish Aerospace cooperation on the ATAK-2. The weight of the ATAK-2 will be closer to the AH-1Z and, potentially, space for a top-rotor mmW radar. 

In fact, it'd be nice if PAC could join the ATAK-2 and the 10-ton general transport helicopter, the latter can gradually replace the Sea King, Puma and Mi-171 (over a period of decades, of course).

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## Army research

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Besides the validated high-altitude ops capability of the ATAK (decent for interdicting a surgical strike along the LOC if a few are stationed in the area with an air assault unit w/light commandos), this deal could also open up the route of PAC-Turkish Aerospace cooperation on the ATAK-2. The weight of the ATAK-2 will be closer to the AH-1Z and, potentially, space for a top-rotor mmW radar.
> 
> In fact, it'd be nice if PAC could join the ATAK-2 and the 10-ton general transport helicopter, the latter can gradually replace the Sea King, Puma and Mi-171 (over a period of decades, of course).


Hopefully after learning from swat ops and western mountain geography airborne ops,
I wish to see light commando or new roumered airborne force , to perform ops in Kashmir 
Having personally seen the front lines,
I believe the mountains would provide cover from enemy anti air and aircraft,
Night time ops paf establishes temporary air superiority over a limited region ,
A battalion or even 2 company sized heli borne terrain hugging force takes off, accompanied by 4-5 attack heli and possibly some transports are armed too ( MI35) , land behind enemy mountain front line , attack a frontline from behind where there is no fortification, or attack a supply depot, 
If a hole is made in the loc, rush forces in the keep attacking the Indians from behind there lines and exploit the gap , 
This might be wishful thinking but I believe it is possible in the short term ,
Large scale grand operations could follow the same general outlay but with brigade sized forces with cargoed anti tank systems manpads etc,
Right now launching a frontal invasion by India or Pakistan on LOC is suicidal

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Besides the validated high-altitude ops capability of the ATAK (decent for interdicting a surgical strike along the LOC if a few are stationed in the area with an air assault unit w/light commandos), this deal could also open up the route of PAC-Turkish Aerospace cooperation on the ATAK-2. The weight of the ATAK-2 will be closer to the AH-1Z and, potentially, space for a top-rotor mmW radar.
> 
> In fact, it'd be nice if PAC could join the ATAK-2 and the 10-ton general transport helicopter, the latter can gradually replace the Sea King, Puma and Mi-171 (over a period of decades, of course).


What Pakistan needs is a mmW guided Fire and Forget system for aircraft much like the Brimstone. That capability will greately increase our CAS capability which right now is ancient in modern terms. 

A 4 ship package of JF-17s armed with an asymmetric combination of LD-10, SD-10 and racks of brimstone class weapon can lay waste to an entire armoured column and its AD assets while still pushing away their air cover.

These are not expensive capabilities as such but require a bit of astute program management along with smarter fund allocation..

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> What Pakistan needs is a mmW guided Fire and Forget system for aircraft much like the Brimstone. That capability will greately increase our CAS capability which right now is ancient in modern terms.
> 
> A 4 ship package of JF-17s armed with an asymmetric combination of LD-10, SD-10 and racks of brimstone class weapon can lay waste to an entire armoured column and its AD assets while still pushing away their air cover.
> 
> These are not expensive capabilities as such but require a bit of astute program management along with smarter fund allocation..


There are analogous attempts (of a Brimstone-like AGM) by China. E.g. the YJ-9E AGM has an active radar-homing (ARH) seeker and 15 km of range. Total weight is 105 kg. Granted, it's not as light as the Brimstone, but it's a good start and could enable the JF-17 to deploy two from each hardpoint. 

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/missiles-iii.html

In fact, we have the makings of a pretty good conventional/armoured column support fighter in the JF-17. Sure, no where near A-10 level, but we can inch it to being something as lethal as India's Jaguar DARIN III with the right subsystems and weapons.

Moreover, the short-range and endurance means nothing due to the short proximity of our main armoured combat theatres. The JF-17s can launch and recover from an array of major and makeshift airstrips, maybe a moving force that rotates between several between sorties.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are analogous attempts (of a Brimstone-like AGM) by China. E.g. the YJ-9E AGM has an active radar-homing (ARH) seeker and 15 km of range. Total weight is 105 kg. Granted, it's not as light as the Brimstone, but it's a good start and could enable the JF-17 to deploy two from each hardpoint.
> 
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/missiles-iii.html
> 
> In fact, we have the makings of a pretty good conventional/armoured column support fighter in the JF-17. Sure, no where near A-10 level, but we can inch it to being something as lethal as India's Jaguar DARIN III with the right subsystems and weapons.
> 
> Moreover, the short-range and endurance means nothing due to the short proximity of our main armoured combat theatres. The JF-17s can launch and recover from an array of major and makeshift airstrips, maybe a moving force that rotates between several between sorties.


ATAK-2’s acting as recon and designators for these fixed wing CAS strikes and handing off targets to them and artillery batteries how the Comanche was planned to be like.. would be an excellent force multiplier.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> ATAK-2’s acting as recon and designators for these fixed wing CAS strikes and handing off targets to them and artillery batteries how the Comanche was planned to be like.. would be an excellent force multiplier.


This could be feasible as means of building conventional deterrence capability within current means.

E.g. it's contingent on a few things, but if the PAF can be convinced to push the JF-17 fleet to 200 - i.e. add a Block-IV - and swap the Block-Is out of air defence duties.

Re-configure the Block-I into a CAS asset by swapping the KLJ-7 with the air-cooled AVIC AESA radar (which I think is supposed to be an easy fit by omitting the liquid cooling gear). Equip it with HMD/S. Configure it with the YJ-9E, a Chinese analogue to the SDB and, ideally, CBU-105 analogue. The latter might need more specialized knowledge, I think South Africa is arguably best positioned.

Basically, 50 CAS fighters with good A2A capabilities, incl. a jam-resistant AESA radar to ensure use of the YJ-9E and BVRAAM (to chase Jaguars). Combine this with our own IBG-like forces with hard-kill APS-equipped MBTs (e.g. al-Khalid II?), 8x8 AFVs with ATGM, SHORAD and 105 mm guns, wheeled 155 mm SPH and MLRS with AESA WTRs networked to the JF-17 Block-1mod and ATAK-1/ATAK-2.

In Kashmir and the Northern Areas, omit the armour and replace with air assault forces and 4x4-based rapid deployment and dismountable forces.

We might not be able to scale this to every force, but enough of a force could at least give us a decent shot at stopping an Indian IBG. Granted, we can't escalate the matter further (i.e. can't do 1965-like moves), but it'll at least give us foreign relations ammunition to point to an enemy aggression that *we openly foiled.*

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This could be feasible as means of building conventional deterrence capability within current means.
> 
> E.g. it's contingent on a few things, but if the PAF can be convinced to push the JF-17 fleet to 200 - i.e. add a Block-IV - and swap the Block-Is out of air defence duties.
> 
> Re-configure the Block-I into a CAS asset by swapping the KLJ-7 with the air-cooled AVIC AESA radar (which I think is supposed to be an easy fit by omitting the liquid cooling gear). Equip it with HMD/S. Configure it with the YJ-9E, a Chinese analogue to the SDB and, ideally, CBU-105 analogue. The latter might need more specialized knowledge, I think South Africa is arguably best positioned.
> 
> Basically, 50 CAS fighters with good A2A capabilities, incl. a jam-resistant AESA radar to ensure use of the YJ-9E and BVRAAM (to chase Jaguars). Combine this with our own IBG-like forces with hard-kill APS-equipped MBTs (e.g. al-Khalid II?), 8x8 AFVs with ATGM, SHORAD and 105 mm guns, wheeled 155 mm SPH and MLRS with AESA WTRs networked to the JF-17 Block-1mod and ATAK-1/ATAK-2.
> 
> In Kashmir and the Northern Areas, omit the armour and replace with air assault forces and 4x4-based rapid deployment and dismountable forces.
> 
> We might not be able to scale this to every force, but enough of a force could at least give us a decent shot at stopping an Indian IBG. Granted, we can't escalate the matter further (i.e. can't do 1965-like moves), but it'll at least give us foreign relations ammunition to point to an enemy aggression that *we openly foiled.*



Before we go too much off topic, lets close that idea with this.
Something like this specifically.
Asymmetric load-outs give the JF-17 an edge in flexibility without working up too much on the effects of imbalance.
A CAS configuration like you mentioned could take a SD-10 on one wing(represented by grey ring) and a LD-10(represented by yellow) that allows it to tackle any LOMADS embedded within an armored column.
The YJ-9E represented by the SDB stand in here lets you take out 6 potential tanks and destroy/suppress their AD escort in the process. Note that the centerline fuel tank still accords it the standard range to provide enough loiter/flexibilty on the






An even more ambitious battlefield SEAD escort could develop from this with both LD-10 and YJ-9E's along with an ECM pod represented by a stand in Sorbitsya.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Before we go too much off topic, lets close that idea with this.
> Something like this specifically.
> Asymmetric load-outs give the JF-17 an edge in flexibility without working up too much on the effects of imbalance.
> A CAS configuration like you mentioned could take a SD-10 on one wing(represented by grey ring) and a LD-10(represented by yellow) that allows it to tackle any LOMADS embedded within an armored column.
> The YJ-9E represented by the SDB stand in here lets you take out 6 potential tanks and destroy/suppress their AD escort in the process. Note that the centerline fuel tank still accords it the standard range to provide enough loiter/flexibilty on the
> View attachment 485997
> 
> 
> An even more ambitious battlefield SEAD escort could develop from this with both LD-10 and YJ-9E's along with an ECM pod represented by a stand in Sorbitsya.
> View attachment 485998


This is excellent. I noticed - no EO/IR-based munitions (e.g. LGB, SALH, etc). This is the *correct configuration* because the Block-I only has 7 hardpoints for use _and _a LGB or SALH AGM offers limited additional utility over ARH-based AGMs. 

It'd be interesting if we could toss in an IIR-tipped PGB or IIR-based AGM, the latter can be leveraged from the ATAK-1 as well (returning to topic).

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This could be feasible as means of building conventional deterrence capability within current means.
> 
> E.g. it's contingent on a few things, but if the PAF can be convinced to push the JF-17 fleet to 200 - i.e. add a Block-IV - and swap the Block-Is out of air defence duties.
> 
> Re-configure the Block-I into a CAS asset by swapping the KLJ-7 with the air-cooled AVIC AESA radar (which I think is supposed to be an easy fit by omitting the liquid cooling gear). Equip it with HMD/S. Configure it with the YJ-9E, a Chinese analogue to the SDB and, ideally, CBU-105 analogue. The latter might need more specialized knowledge, I think South Africa is arguably best positioned.
> 
> Basically, 50 CAS fighters with good A2A capabilities, incl. a jam-resistant AESA radar to ensure use of the YJ-9E and BVRAAM (to chase Jaguars). Combine this with our own IBG-like forces with hard-kill APS-equipped MBTs (e.g. al-Khalid II?), 8x8 AFVs with ATGM, SHORAD and 105 mm guns, wheeled 155 mm SPH and MLRS with AESA WTRs networked to the JF-17 Block-1mod and ATAK-1/ATAK-2.
> 
> In Kashmir and the Northern Areas, omit the armour and replace with air assault forces and 4x4-based rapid deployment and dismountable forces.
> 
> We might not be able to scale this to every force, but enough of a force could at least give us a decent shot at stopping an Indian IBG. Granted, we can't escalate the matter further (i.e. can't do 1965-like moves), but it'll at least give us foreign relations ammunition to point to an enemy aggression that *we openly foiled.*



Takeout the Thunder and replace with HALE drone of your choice. Manned aircraft are a luxury that should be used for air superiority. If such superiority requires bombing an air base, or taking out a SAM accompanying armor, so be it. But CAS should NOT be the air force's job. Another necessary role is deep surgical strikes behind enemy lines against strategic targets. I consider this to be the correct utilization of air force.

HALE drones should be able to take off from hastily made runways, can be commanded by field commanders, and if programmed for autonomous operation, can prove to be a force multiplier through sheer numbers. Hand in hand comes the requirement of mobile SAMs and MANPADs, giving the army considerable control over their own air safety.


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## -------

Armchair said:


> I hope they buy some JF-17s in lieu of the T-129s. quid pro quo. Why not F-16s? - Turkey cannot actually produce F-16s, it needs most critical parts from the US including Knocked down kits. Also, has had issues with bugs and back door security concerns.



I'm sure JF-17 is a good aircraft, but Turkey is invested in her own indigenous projects.

Hurjet

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## khanasifm

The big question what is the offset for this acquisition ??

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## Armchair

Oscar said:


> Before we go too much off topic, lets close that idea with this.
> Something like this specifically.
> Asymmetric load-outs give the JF-17 an edge in flexibility without working up too much on the effects of imbalance.
> A CAS configuration like you mentioned could take a SD-10 on one wing(represented by grey ring) and a LD-10(represented by yellow) that allows it to tackle any LOMADS embedded within an armored column.
> The YJ-9E represented by the SDB stand in here lets you take out 6 potential tanks and destroy/suppress their AD escort in the process. Note that the centerline fuel tank still accords it the standard range to provide enough loiter/flexibilty on the
> View attachment 485997
> 
> 
> An even more ambitious battlefield SEAD escort could develop from this with both LD-10 and YJ-9E's along with an ECM pod represented by a stand in Sorbitsya.
> View attachment 485998



Interesting and I love your out-of-the-box thinking.

However, here is an alternative -
JF-17 for SEAD and air cover
A BAe SABA type local design for CAS fixed wing
T-129 / Z-18 / UAV / A light observerational helicopter for targeting

The BAe SABA type design, downsized with a 1200 hp HS-5 rotary engine (China or Ukrainian / Polish equivalent) would cost, with a targeting package like the Aselpod would cost about 4 millions USD to 7 million USD.

That's a CAS aircraft that is reasonably armored with precision strike capability at 4 to 7 million USD.

You could build 100 locally and you'd never need to worry about CAS again and JF-17s, F-16s and other such aircraft can focus on the high end of the battle and provide air cover and SEAD / DEAD.

Granted, such an aircraft will go at about 400 km / hour, slower than a fighter jet, but speed is not critical in CAS, particularly at the short ranges it will take place in the India-Pakistan theater.

Build 100 of these and you have a massive capability upgrade from a systems point of view, at a cost of 500 million USD, that too mainly in local currency.
Picture worth a thousand words:


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## HRK

Oscar said:


> ATAK-2’s acting as recon and designators for these fixed wing CAS strikes and handing off targets to them and artillery batteries


don't you think drones specially with VTOL capability should be more suitable in this role ...??


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## Signalian

In the absence of Mmw Radar, the T-129 could be able to fire AGM 114R if AH-1Z deal comes aboard. 1000 Missiles for only 12-15 choppers doesn't make sense.

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## SQ8

Armchair said:


> Interesting and I love your out-of-the-box thinking.
> 
> However, here is an alternative -
> JF-17 for SEAD and air cover
> A BAe SABA type local design for CAS fixed wing
> T-129 / Z-18 / UAV / A light observerational helicopter for targeting
> 
> The BAe SABA type design, downsized with a 1200 hp HS-5 rotary engine (China or Ukrainian / Polish equivalent) would cost, with a targeting package like the Aselpod would cost about 4 millions USD to 7 million USD.
> 
> That's a CAS aircraft that is reasonably armored with precision strike capability at 4 to 7 million USD.
> 
> You could build 100 locally and you'd never need to worry about CAS again and JF-17s, F-16s and other such aircraft can focus on the high end of the battle and provide air cover and SEAD / DEAD.
> 
> Granted, such an aircraft will go at about 400 km / hour, slower than a fighter jet, but speed is not critical in CAS, particularly at the short ranges it will take place in the India-Pakistan theater.
> 
> Build 100 of these and you have a massive capability upgrade from a systems point of view, at a cost of 500 million USD, that too mainly in local currency.
> Picture worth a thousand words:


Low and Slow are no longer survivable in the modern CAS environment barring counter insurgency.
CAS is a tough job anyway, you are sending an multi million dollar machine made of aluminium to destroy rolling Armour blocks that cost 1/10 of the aircraft and have guns and SAMs protecting them throughout.

The A-10 and Frogfoot were designed with the idea of going low to avoid MR SAM systems and using the various hilly terrain to avoid being picked up by low level air defense including dense AAA and Small arms fire. The area was still to be somewhat sanitized by a SEAD or prior escort. Even with the heavy SEAD in GW1, A-10s got hit ad only survived due to their tough design. The idea of the attack chopper hiding in the hills was well suited to Germany but in the Thar desert the only place to hide are either random mountains or maybe a dune.. and even in that dune you will end up ingesting sand. Still, helicopters can go extremely low or run away but their operational radius is limited to the FLOT.

Pakistan does not have 1/10th of the SEAD resources poured into GW-1, our environment is going to be heavily contested in the air and with LOMADS and SHORADS that are much more lethal than what was ever envisaged for the cold war. In such an environment you are not looking to give aircraft more passes into a dangerous zone. THe idea is to come in fast and keep as far as possible from a hostile airspace while causing maximum destruction.
For that the JF-17 is just perfect if such a configuration arises. An aircraft like you suggested will be chewed out by the current ADGE capabilities of Indian IBGs and regular formations.

For counter insurgency such aircraft are ideal as counter insurgency is a slow and gradual process, unlike the tempo of conventional war. Longer loiter times and slow speed allow for more detailed sweeps of a contested area in an insurgency..Finally, our airforce is an extremely poorly budgeted airforce for its size and cannot afford the luxury that India has of maintaining multiple diverse types with their own logistics and associated headaches.

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## Armchair

Oscar said:


> Low and Slow are no longer survivable in the modern CAS environment barring counter insurgency.
> CAS is a tough job anyway, you are sending an multi million dollar machine made of aluminium to destroy rolling Armour blocks that cost 1/10 of the aircraft and have guns and SAMs protecting them throughout.
> 
> The A-10 and Frogfoot were designed with the idea of going low to avoid MR SAM systems and using the various hilly terrain to avoid being picked up by low level air defense including dense AAA and Small arms fire. The area was still to be somewhat sanitized by a SEAD or prior escort. Even with the heavy SEAD in GW1, A-10s got hit ad only survived due to their tough design. The idea of the attack chopper hiding in the hills was well suited to Germany but in the Thar desert the only place to hide are either random mountains or maybe a dune.. and even in that dune you will end up ingesting sand. Still, helicopters can go extremely low or run away but their operational radius is limited to the FLOT.
> 
> Pakistan does not have 1/10th of the SEAD resources poured into GW-1, our environment is going to be heavily contested in the air and with LOMADS and SHORADS that are much more lethal than what was ever envisaged for the cold war. In such an environment you are not looking to give aircraft more passes into a dangerous zone. THe idea is to come in fast and keep as far as possible from a hostile airspace while causing maximum destruction.
> For that the JF-17 is just perfect if such a configuration arises. An aircraft like you suggested will be chewed out by the current ADGE capabilities of Indian IBGs and regular formations.
> 
> For counter insurgency such aircraft are ideal as counter insurgency is a slow and gradual process, unlike the tempo of conventional war. Longer loiter times and slow speed allow for more detailed sweeps of a contested area in an insurgency..Finally, our airforce is an extremely poorly budgeted airforce for its size and cannot afford the luxury that India has of maintaining multiple diverse types with their own logistics and associated headaches.



Down low, an A-10 would do about 500 km per hour max. The SABA design would do 400. Marginally less. 
Cost - $5 to $7 million, armed with standoff precision weapons. Meaning, they will fly low, at speed, pop up at a distance, deliver munitions, and then scoot.

This is the SOP for low level CAS. 

An A-10 doesn't even have the needed avionics for low level nap of the earth flight. This aircraft would. 

Even the JF-17 doesn't have true nap of the earth capability. Down low, in military power, a JF-17 would do about 700 km / hour. 

Cost of an enemy tank - $2 to $3 million. Cost of a SABA - $5 to $7 million. A single pass would pay for it in equivalence. 

Since the budget for the SABA and its basing and training will come from the Army, just like the AH-1s and T-129s, PAF would be able to focus its resources on air combat and SEAD / DEAD.

This isn't an Air Tractor flying at 5000 feet at 200 km / hour. Its a dedicated CAS platform with armor, flying at 400 km / hour on the deck with an automated nap of the earth flight capability. It pops up - knocks out enemy armor - artillery - infantry - and scoots, often before the enemy has even seen it - as its munitions are standoff. 

The SABA was designed to survive the European theater against Russian invasion. Its designed for the role that's needed exactly.

CPFH would be tiny - somewhere in the sub 1000 range. The design is inherently survivable with the wings positioned to protect the engines and critical areas armored.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> I'm sure JF-17 is a good aircraft, but Turkey is invested in her own indigenous projects.
> 
> Hurjet
> View attachment 486016


IMO the best way to offset the T129 is to buy parts and maybe some subassemblies from Pakistan. This will help lower the ATAK's cost while also let Turkish Aerospace devote more internal resources to the Hurjet, ATAK 2, T625, etc.


Armchair said:


> Down low, an A-10 would do about 500 km per hour max. The SABA design would do 400. Marginally less.
> Cost - $5 to $7 million, armed with standoff precision weapons. Meaning, they will fly low, at speed, pop up at a distance, deliver munitions, and then scoot.
> 
> This is the SOP for low level CAS.
> 
> An A-10 doesn't even have the needed avionics for low level nap of the earth flight. This aircraft would.
> 
> Even the JF-17 doesn't have true nap of the earth capability. Down low, in military power, a JF-17 would do about 700 km / hour.
> 
> Cost of an enemy tank - $2 to $3 million. Cost of a SABA - $5 to $7 million. A single pass would pay for it in equivalence.
> 
> Since the budget for the SABA and its basing and training will come from the Army, just like the AH-1s and T-129s, PAF would be able to focus its resources on air combat and SEAD / DEAD.
> 
> This isn't an Air Tractor flying at 5000 feet at 200 km / hour. Its a dedicated CAS platform with armor, flying at 400 km / hour on the deck with an automated nap of the earth flight capability. It pops up - knocks out enemy armor - artillery - infantry - and scoots, often before the enemy has even seen it - as its munitions are standoff.
> 
> The SABA was designed to survive the European theater against Russian invasion. Its designed for the role that's needed exactly.
> 
> CPFH would be tiny - somewhere in the sub 1000 range. The design is inherently survivable with the wings positioned to protect the engines and critical areas armored.


Isn't Stavatti trying to make a similar plane right now - i.e. Machete? IIRC the goal is to produce them in Serbia.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the best way to offset the T129 is to buy parts and maybe some subassemblies from Pakistan. This will help lower the ATAK's cost while also let Turkish Aerospace devote more internal resources to the Hurjet, ATAK 2, T625, etc.
> 
> Isn't Stavatti trying to make a similar plane right now - i.e. Machete? IIRC the goal is to produce them in Serbia.



Yes it is but my solution is better : )

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## SQ8

Armchair said:


> Down low, an A-10 would do about 500 km per hour max. The SABA design would do 400. Marginally less.
> Cost - $5 to $7 million, armed with standoff precision weapons. Meaning, they will fly low, at speed, pop up at a distance, deliver munitions, and then scoot.
> 
> This is the SOP for low level CAS.
> 
> An A-10 doesn't even have the needed avionics for low level nap of the earth flight. This aircraft would.
> 
> Even the JF-17 doesn't have true nap of the earth capability. Down low, in military power, a JF-17 would do about 700 km / hour.
> 
> Cost of an enemy tank - $2 to $3 million. Cost of a SABA - $5 to $7 million. A single pass would pay for it in equivalence.
> 
> Since the budget for the SABA and its basing and training will come from the Army, just like the AH-1s and T-129s, PAF would be able to focus its resources on air combat and SEAD / DEAD.
> 
> This isn't an Air Tractor flying at 5000 feet at 200 km / hour. Its a dedicated CAS platform with armor, flying at 400 km / hour on the deck with an automated nap of the earth flight capability. It pops up - knocks out enemy armor - artillery - infantry - and scoots, often before the enemy has even seen it - as its munitions are standoff.
> 
> The SABA was designed to survive the European theater against Russian invasion. Its designed for the role that's needed exactly.
> 
> CPFH would be tiny - somewhere in the sub 1000 range. The design is inherently survivable with the wings positioned to protect the engines and critical areas armored.


The A-10 does the same speed as this SABA design and is much more armoured than the SABA. In addition, the A-10 pilots consistently flew NOE using both NVG's and LANTRIN pods. 

The SABA designs were focused on the 150- 400kt range and providing Agile CAS provided air superiority was secured, in the case of Pakistan that is never going to be the case it will be a hotly contested airspace with the IAF likely holding air superiority in many theaters. What possible useful load would a SABA class aircraft bring that would stop a well established IBG column , avoid its well layered air defense and then survive against any air cover that the IBG would have? 
The interesting thing is that even with properly agile HOBS missiles, AGM's and protection a SABA type design will easily exceed the $7-8 million you are proposing by at least $2-3 million while not really providing much over the JF-17 in terms of battlefield CAS.

What about the cost of the pilot? A pilot is $150000 worth of training an intangible cost of value of life and experience. In addition, the pilot is then restricted to CAS operations . 

We are a 350 Aircraft airforce at best and can end up at 250 at worst. There is no room or budget for platforms that are dedicated to a single role. 

The SABA was designed to fill a gap where attack helicopters and Faster Jets like the A-10 in terms of capability, loiter time and survivability. For us, the T-129 and Ah-1Z offer have pushed that longer range punch a couple of Km's. Is there room for a SABA type aircraft in today's MALE world with increased loiter times? 
All of this then comes down to looking at the budget and analyzing alternatives available to provide the most cost effective solution. 

A dedicated Slower CAS platform simply isnt one of those options for Pakistan.

For the GCC troops fighting in Yemen with their ample pockets? Yes, it is a great fit for their needs.

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## Armchair

Oscar said:


> The A-10 does the same speed as this SABA design and is much more armoured than the SABA. In addition, the A-10 pilots consistently flew NOE using both NVG's and LANTRIN pods.



The A-10 will be a bit faster than the SABA based design I am specifically proposing.
Word from people in the know is that the A-10 is not able to do true nap of the earth flight with the necessary upgrades having been cancelled.



Oscar said:


> What possible useful load would a SABA class aircraft bring that would stop a well established IBG column , avoid its well layered air defense and then survive against any air cover that the IBG would have?



One could use precision standoff munitions depending on the mix you are looking for. You could use similar munitions as on the T-129 if you wished. I've a number of possible weapons load out ideas, but really, its a matter of having a reasonable load out and being low cost. Value for money.



Oscar said:


> The interesting thing is that even with properly agile HOBS missiles, AGM's and protection a SABA type design will easily exceed the $7-8 million you are proposing by at least $2-3 million while not really providing much over the JF-17 in terms of battlefield CAS.



I don't believe we should put HOBS AAMs on such a design. Let PAF deal with the top cover issue. Would be armed just enough to have a clear advantage over enemy helicopters and UAVs. No need to bring expensive HOBS into the picture. Personally, there is no reason we could not bring in local MMW or laser based standoff munitions into the mix but that's a different discussion.

One of the ways we can lower the costs beyond anything seen so far is to use radial engines. I can discuss with you extensively how such engines can give broadly equivalent performance at the low altitudes they will be operating in, and how they can cost a whole lot less, not only to buy but to operate.

I believe 4 million to 7 million is easily possible, and we can go through the numbers if you like.



Oscar said:


> What about the cost of the pilot? A pilot is $150000 worth of training an intangible cost of value of life and experience. In addition, the pilot is then restricted to CAS operations .



If you hit just 2 Indian tanks, you're killing 6 people. So the human equivalency cost is on the side of the SABA. Since this will be done on the edge of the battlefield where these tanks will be worth so much more tactically to India, the military calculus is clearly in our favor.

About pilot training costs - very high for two reasons 1) fast jet training 2) officer pilots
We will use enlisted pilots. Since these are rugged, simple aircraft, this should be even easier to do. Pilots could get off the Mushaq and go straight to the SABA type.



Oscar said:


> The SABA was designed to fill a gap where attack helicopters and Faster Jets like the A-10 in terms of capability, loiter time and survivability. For us, the T-129 and Ah-1Z offer have pushed that longer range punch a couple of Km's. Is there room for a SABA type aircraft in today's MALE world with increased loiter times?
> All of this then comes down to looking at the budget and analyzing alternatives available to provide the most cost effective solution.



There simply is no more cost effective, value solution than this. PA just bought T-129s for 50 million USD per helicopter. The cost of maintaining a helicopter is considerably greater than a rugged CAS aircraft. Availability for the CAS fixed wing is also going to be better. Cost and value are the biggest advantage of the SABA based proposal.

100 of these would completely free up the PAF from needing to do CAS, increasing their effectiveness, efficiency and specialization advantages. Employed effectively (more on that in the future), they would be devastating for the IA.

Even when IDF-AF had complete air superiority, a handful of lighly armed and lightly armored Gazelles ran amok and created serious trouble for the IDF. _Imagine what 100 CAS aircraft, armed with standoff precision munition and with supporting air cover, could do to the large, concentrated formations of the IA_.

A comment on another forum that explains the issues with the A-10 nicely: 



> You lost me somewhere between 'A-10 and great airplanes'...
> 
> The A-10 came out of the A/X program efforts which were specifically an attempt by the USAF to undermine the AAFSS AH-56 Cheyenne and thus keep 'deep CAS' which is to say BAI/OBAS out of the hands of the Army (they'd already destroyed the effort to weaponize the OV-1 Mohawk).
> 
> As such, it was little more than a dumb bomb truck with limited survivability and weather penetration capabilities suitable for the 'best days' (65-68) in SEA. Before the SA-7 came south. Once that happened, the A-10 was little more than a fast Skyraider and would have been butchered, even in CAVU (keeping in mind that 3 months in Vietnam you can't fly anything without blind letdown capabilities because of the monsoons and the VC moved at night with something like 12,000 trucks and 2,500 miles of roadways).
> 
> When we moved to Europe after leaving that wonderful region to it's denizens, the A-10 was -not- upgraded to include such basics as low altitude radalt and terrain attitude avoidance, INS, autopilot, moving map or even TISL (the first 2 years). It had lousy cockpit integration with no UFC and a HUD was little more than an ironsight. All this in weather conditions which, in winter, make the B Maverick all but useless (the seeker contrast 'assured target lock' for the vidicon overlaps the gun _rmin_) and makes acquisition of targets from low level all but impossible without a FAC/TACP spot marking. D Maverick was nice but the LAU-88 was not and we didn't get it until 1986, after 'The Window Of Vulnerability' was two years shut.
> 
> The jet doesn't operate well at altitude, having always been short of thrust trust with lousy spool up times and a sharp power curve that leaves it positively gutless over 12,000ft and with a further big fat conical camber wing that rides the stall margin anywhere above about 15K. With the LAU-88 on the jet, drag was terrible and you could not make disengagement turns before crossing into the zip gun engagement envelope while the option to popup slow to a gunbunt and then apply power to hold energy coming off wasn't an option because of spool up lag. Pilots for awhile were running around full throttle with the boards part open and then snapping them closed to bring power on the jet. Needless to say, this burned out the cores on the TF34 and greatly fatigued the wings to the point where over half the jets were in need of Hog Up/CUPID type work similar to the early F-16A/C aircraft before DS with less than 10 years on them. They retired most of them to serve as parts donors instead.
> 
> The A-10 was a natural for replacing the OA-37 and OV-10 in the FFAC mission and as a night intruder followon to the B-57 but desperately needed to have the mission suite and backseater that the N/AW brought with it. The USAF didn't like the competition with the completely worthless LANTIRN system and so axed what was a cheap and functional pairing of the WX-50 (weather radar) and AAR-42 FLIR with Ferranti LRMTS for about 2 million per plane. On it's own, in daylight, in Europe, the A-10 was utterly worthless, not least because the FOLs were all within about 50 miles of the front and as DS showed (without the wonderful German road net, in the middle of a desert) that's about 3hrs before the T-72s are running over your Nikes.



Incidentally, the same author also goes by the pseudonym of GLAAAR believes the SABA is a sound proposition and is survivable, efficient and cost effective. Unfortunately his comments about the SABA are blocked behind a paywall (Aviationweek changed its settings so you can't see the comments on their articles without a subscription anymore).

https://aviationweek.com/users/glaaar

A big fan of the SABA design.

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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the best way to offset the T129 is to buy parts and maybe some subassemblies from Pakistan. This will help lower the ATAK's cost while also let Turkish Aerospace devote more internal resources to the Hurjet, ATAK 2, T625, etc.
> 
> Isn't Stavatti trying to make a similar plane right now - i.e. Machete? IIRC the goal is to produce them in Serbia.



T-129 is made up of 3,500 parts of which 3,200 are made in Turkey. Transfering production of some of the Turkish parts would not be an issue, knowing Turkish business model which is centered around a 'Win-Win' policy.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> T-129 is made up of 3,500 parts of which 3,200 are made in Turkey. Transfering production of some of the Turkish parts would not be an issue, knowing Turkish business model which is centered around a 'Win-Win' policy.


For Pakistan, I think the main priority would be spare parts and those necessary for overhauling and repair. Yes, the engine, dynamic components and transmission will likely need to come from outside, but if PAC can handle most of the support (via local d-level MRO and parts manufacturing) that would be good (commercially and militarily).

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## SQ8

Armchair said:


> The A-10 will be a bit faster than the SABA based design I am specifically proposing.
> Word from people in the know is that the A-10 is not able to do true nap of the earth flight with the necessary upgrades having been cancelled.
> 
> 
> 
> One could use precision standoff munitions depending on the mix you are looking for. You could use similar munitions as on the T-129 if you wished. I've a number of possible weapons load out ideas, but really, its a matter of having a reasonable load out and being low cost. Value for money.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe we should put HOBS AAMs on such a design. Let PAF deal with the top cover issue. Would be armed just enough to have a clear advantage over enemy helicopters and UAVs. No need to bring expensive HOBS into the picture. Personally, there is no reason we could not bring in local MMW or laser based standoff munitions into the mix but that's a different discussion.
> 
> One of the ways we can lower the costs beyond anything seen so far is to use radial engines. I can discuss with you extensively how such engines can give broadly equivalent performance at the low altitudes they will be operating in, and how they can cost a whole lot less, not only to buy but to operate.
> 
> I believe 4 million to 7 million is easily possible, and we can go through the numbers if you like.
> 
> 
> 
> If you hit just 2 Indian tanks, you're killing 6 people. So the human equivalency cost is on the side of the SABA. Since this will be done on the edge of the battlefield where these tanks will be worth so much more tactically to India, the military calculus is clearly in our favor.
> 
> About pilot training costs - very high for two reasons 1) fast jet training 2) officer pilots
> We will use enlisted pilots. Since these are rugged, simple aircraft, this should be even easier to do. Pilots could get off the Mushaq and go straight to the SABA type.
> 
> 
> 
> There simply is no more cost effective, value solution than this. PA just bought T-129s for 50 million USD per helicopter. The cost of maintaining a helicopter is considerably greater than a rugged CAS aircraft. Availability for the CAS fixed wing is also going to be better. Cost and value are the biggest advantage of the SABA based proposal.
> 
> 100 of these would completely free up the PAF from needing to do CAS, increasing their effectiveness, efficiency and specialization advantages. Employed effectively (more on that in the future), they would be devastating for the IA.
> 
> Even when IDF-AF had complete air superiority, a handful of lighly armed and lightly armored Gazelles ran amok and created serious trouble for the IDF. _Imagine what 100 CAS aircraft, armed with standoff precision munition and with supporting air cover, could do to the large, concentrated formations of the IA_.
> 
> A comment on another forum that explains the issues with the A-10 nicely:
> 
> 
> 
> Incidentally, the same author also goes by the pseudonym of GLAAAR believes the SABA is a sound proposition and is survivable, efficient and cost effective. Unfortunately his comments about the SABA are blocked behind a paywall (Aviationweek changed its settings so you can't see the comments on their articles without a subscription anymore).
> 
> https://aviationweek.com/users/glaaar
> 
> A big fan of the SABA design.


The A-10 has its detractors and supporters, I know a former warthog pilot who was my neighbor and he testified to the use of AGM-65G seekers to fly at 200 feet off the deck.

Radial engines arent the issue in terms of cost but in terms of reliability and power. As an example, the Merlin used on the Bearcat weighs about a 1250kg and gives about 2200HP(so far there is no current off the shelf solution available for a powerful piston engine as they all went out of fashion versus turboprops)in the low level environment you are referring to...giving you a power to weight ratio of By contrast the PT-6A-68 which powers the PC-21.. delivers 1300shp but weighs only 270kg. 

Aircraft rely on weight savings and thrust to weight ratios factor into those; you can have a very powerful radial that will proper the aircraft to 400 knots but then leave it incapable of mounting anything more than two rocket pods.

Moreover, at this point it is actually cheaper to procure a PT-6A with its associated logistics instead of a radial. After all, the idea is to look at something realistic, not just aircraft cost but an actual serious cost of program R&D that could actually be doable rather than what-ifs.

Moving to enlisted pilots, the issue has been debated by the USAF as well. You cannot have ill trained monkeys in the air so the requisite costs of flight training come in which then put the same strain on economics. The PAF currently has a pilot to aircraft ratio of about 1:1.5 so it makes no sense to put additional "Half-pilots" into what is essentially a near suicidal mission just to halve JF-17 costs. 

A helicopter isnt just an attack platform, its ability to land right behind the battlefield to rearm and refuel, along with the ability to hide and evade is unmatched by any fixed wing even one capable of 150 degrees a second since a fixed wing aircraft cannot duck behind a hill and stay there. 

Then moving onto the author's opinion.. it seems he is talking about the Vanilla A-10A which was introduced in the 70's. Even the A-10A during the cold war had a HUD and systems so I doubt the veracity of timeframe and validity of his assertion about today's A-10C and A-10A modernized. 

As for the Gazelle's and IDF superiority during the 82 Beka Valley situation, when the IAF pushed the SAMs back the Gazelle's were duck shoot. 

I still maintain that your proposal is a nice what if clean sheet idea that will take a reasonable investment much like the AHLRAC is for Paramount but could recoup its costs with some rich Arab nation facing lots of technicals or a highly advanced airforce holding air superiority over the frontline... ironically, the Indian Air Force is more of a candidate for this type of asset versus their truckload that is the Tejas and would suit their low intensity eastern fronts and a western front scenario whenever they eventually knock or ground the PAF out of the sky and start picking out whatever remains of the PA regrouping. 

But in the limited week long scenario of the PAF trying to force a detente against a much more powerful and equally well trained IAF; I will disagree on both the utility and cost effectiveness of this concept.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Just a point on the PAA ATAK timeframe. Reuters is reporting that the PAA will receive the 30 helicopters in around 5 years. So the end of the PAA program seems to coincide with around the time I'd expect Turkish Aerospace (TA) to start its transition to the ATAK-2 (and basically end T129 production). IMO, if the PAA chooses to stick with Turkish attack helicopters, then I think incremental purchases of the ATAK-2 could be on the horizon.

In fact, @Oscar the added armour of the ATAK-2 (6 ton MTOW vs. 5 ton of the ATAK) would make it better suited for Thar (with the ATAK-1s assigned to NA and LOC, where it's better suited for high-altitude ops).

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## Sunny4pak

Pakistan Signed Deal With Turkey

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017783265900494848


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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Just a point on the PAA ATAK timeframe. Reuters is reporting that the PAA will receive the 30 helicopters in around 5 years. So the end of the PAA program seems to coincide with around the time I'd expect Turkish Aerospace (TA) to start its transition to the ATAK-2 (and basically end T129 production). IMO, if the PAA chooses to stick with Turkish attack helicopters, then I think incremental purchases of the ATAK-2 could be on the horizon.
> 
> In fact, @Oscar the added armour of the ATAK-2 (6 ton MTOW vs. 5 ton of the ATAK) would make it better suited for Thar (with the ATAK-1s assigned to NA and LOC, where it's better suited for high-altitude ops).



Temel Kotil stated that Atak-II will have a weight around 8 tons. If It is a 8 tons class helo instead of 6tons, A new and powerfull turboshaft engine will be imminent and I think TEI will be charged to develop ~1700shp variant of TS-1400 engine. Addition 3 tons includes DIRCM, EW sensors, MMW radars and armour protection. 3rd generation EO sensor called CATS will be 1/2 lighter than 2nd generation 300T. Bullet capacity will also be increased (750-1000) inside of an armour protected box under the cockpit.

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## Armchair

Oscar said:


> Radial engines arent the issue in terms of cost but in terms of reliability and power. As an example, the Merlin used on the Bearcat weighs about a 1250kg and gives about 2200HP(so far there is no current off the shelf solution available for a powerful piston engine as they all went out of fashion versus turboprops)in the low level environment you are referring to.



The engine on the Bearcat (PW R-2800) had two layers of radials, this is known to cause heating issues as the second layer is insufficiently cooled. The bearcat ws. There are Chinese, Polish and Ukrainian solutions, for instance the HS-5 which can easily be uprated to 1500 hp (depending on the variant, this series of Soviet / Chinese / Eastern European radial engines give 900 - 1200 hp as is).

China in the 1990s stopped producing this engine but is known to have all the tooling. One could potentially by the tooling and blue prints from China / Ukraine / Poland, all of whom still produce parts for the IL-2 and related crop dusters.

We don't really need a very high thrust to weight ratio as its a simple CAS aircraft, or so I would argue. Nor do we need a heavy weapons load, with the presence of precision munitions in the class of Brimstone, Cirit.



Oscar said:


> Moreover, at this point it is actually cheaper to procure a PT-6A with its associated logistics instead of a radial. After all, the idea is to look at something realistic, not just aircraft cost but an actual serious cost of program R&D that could actually be doable rather than what-ifs.



The reason I want to avoid a PT-6A or related turbo props are the costs, not only of acquisition but of maintenance, which is complex and expensive, specially if you look at the hot section issues.

For instance, in the civilian market, a comparable aircraft with a piston engine versus a P&W turboprop usually costs twice the amount - in one instance, it was $1 million with the piston engine, very similar in capability aircraft with a turboprop was twice the cost at $2 million.

Here is an interesting technical bit - the advantage of the turboprop is above 100 FL. At loiter and below 5000 feet there is no meaningful fuel efficiency difference, and that is against simpler pistons, not the radials where the gap is even narrower.

While the radial would take more frequent maintenance, it costs a lot less and can most often be repaired on the field by mechanics. Something not possible for turboprops.

The reason I support radials, in summary are:
1. much lower costs of acquisition and maintenance (remember my price point for the product)
2. considerably easier to maintain
3. Rugged and can be maintained by lower skilled mechanics
4. Gives very comparable performances in real-world scenarios and not theoretical high altitude cruise where turboprops excel and win the powerpoint game.

_However, if I had to compromise to make the design a reality, I'd be happy to let go of this requirement. But it is intrinsically tied to the low cost - large scale strategy that I'm looking at. $4 to $7 million per plane, 100 units. moment the price goes up, quantity comes down, destroying economies of scale, further increasing the price, which further decreases units, and the vicious spiral continues. 



Oscar said:



Moving to enlisted pilots, the issue has been debated by the USAF as well. You cannot have ill trained monkeys in the air so the requisite costs of flight training come in which then put the same strain on economics. The PAF currently has a pilot to aircraft ratio of about 1:1.5 so it makes no sense to put additional "Half-pilots" into what is essentially a near suicidal mission just to halve JF-17 costs.

Click to expand...

_
CAS is all about practice. And there is no reason enlisted pilots cannot perform. For a long time in the 2000s, the best Predator pilot was a 19 year old who had no USAF training, let alone officer training. You don't need an officer to be a tank driver, why have one for a simple rugged CAS aircraft?

Bahrain takes the CAS cake in Gulf competitions with their F-5, not because their pilots are amazing, or that their aircraft is - its simply practicing one thing alone - CAS is all those F-5 pilots practice. So, I think that having enlisted pilots focused on a single role would do amazing wonders and surprise us all.

USAF has become a fighter pilot trade union and many within mourn this. It is what kept them from adapting to UAVs properly until the CIA showed them the way. Even today they are grudgingly accepting UAVs and doing it in a very wrong-footed way. Do we really need the USAF to be the model?

Also notice how Marine pilots do so much better at CAS because of their better frequency, and how they do so much worse at A2A. Leaving CAS to a specialized group of enlisted pilots will give you not only excellent CAS, but it will help PAF pilots do their A2A and SEAD / DEAD job better.

PAF has always had a high pilot to aircraft ratio, this is to maintain tempo of operations during war, and because aircraft from friendly countries / reserves are expected. Its not an unplanned surplus of pilots. These pilots are also very expensive to train.

So, if you added 100 CAS aircraft to the mix, PAF would need to plan for that and add 150 pilots. My solution takes PAF out of the equation rather than forcing it to expend valuable resources on a secondary mission. And it does so at a very good cost / fast pace. It also allows the PA to integrate the pilot training and mix it with its army training - just like the US Marines, allowing the pilot to understand ground operations better. Something valuable for CAS.



Oscar said:


> A helicopter isnt just an attack platform, its ability to land right behind the battlefield to rearm and refuel, along with the ability to hide and evade is unmatched by any fixed wing even one capable of 150 degrees a second since a fixed wing aircraft cannot duck behind a hill and stay there.



This has been an unrealized hope as mostly, it has not been logistically possible to arm and refuel helicopters just behind the battlefield. Because of their complexity and other logistics issues, attack helicopters have most frequently been based from FABs alongside fixed wing.

However, with the SABA-type, you can actually base these aircrafts alongside the moving Corps HQ. Because of their simple, rugged nature, their STOL and rough field performance, and their long loiter time, they can be more easily integrated than most aircraft out there with the exception of UAVs.

While a helicopter can duck behind a hill, that ability sacrifices kinetic performance. Meaning in the mode of hiding behind a hill or trees, a helicopter actually has very little kinetic energy. It can easily be seen by airborne assets because of those large rotating blades. With the advent of thermal sights, hiding behind a clump of trees has become meaningless.

The SOP of CAS is to stay low, fly fast, pop up from a flank at range, deliver munitions, duck back low and get out. The SABA-inspired can do this perfectly well. Niche issues exists where the attack helicopter does better, but that's the niche. The bread and butter is covered best by the SABA-type fixed wing.



Oscar said:


> I still maintain that your proposal is a nice what if clean sheet idea that will take a reasonable investment much like the AHLRAC is for Paramount but could recoup its costs with some rich Arab nation facing lots of technicals or a highly advanced airforce holding air superiority over the frontline... ironically, the Indian Air Force is more of a candidate for this type of asset versus their truckload that is the Tejas and would suit their low intensity eastern fronts and a western front scenario whenever they eventually knock or ground the PAF out of the sky and start picking out whatever remains of the PA regrouping.
> 
> But in the limited week long scenario of the PAF trying to force a detente against a much more powerful and equally well trained IAF; I will disagree on both the utility and cost effectiveness of this concept.



Thanks for the assessment. Its always good to have a solid assessment even if one doesn't like its conclusion. I think the IAF squadron strength has seriously suffered and is likely to continue to be an issue going forward. PAF has closed the gap in leaps and bounds.
It can close the gap even further if it:

1. Invests in UCAV strike platforms
2. Looks at SEAD / DEAD more innovatively (Harpy)
3. Creates a better IADS
4. Focuses on its core mission of knocking out IAF

For #4 to happen, it needs to spend maximum time training on those competencies and not on CAS. This is where the SABA type helps. It also helps because it diverts and distracts IAF, who now have to spend resources and its fighters to try to hunt down decentralized, terrain hugging CAS aircraft _while trying to deal with the very strong PAF. 
_
With the IA mainly focusing on creating massive concentrations of its forces, a CAS aircraft can do real damage in just a few passes. Just a few canisters of cluster munition can cause havoc. Deployed behind PA armored divisions, they would hardly need to even enter Indian airspace to cause such damage.

There are a host of other auxillary benefits - like hunting down enemy artillery batteries. Or acting as a wifi hub to the ground forces. Or recon. Or jamming enemy comms. Or taking out enemy UAVs and helicopters.

100 CAS aircraft at the price of 500 million to 700 million. Built locally with the ability to run production during war. Compare that to any other weapons purchase. Like the 1.5 Billion USD for 30 odd T-129s...

The proposal closely mirrors the 80 - 20 rule - 80 percent of the capability costs 20 percent of the cost. I'm proposing that 80% in a situation where there is no other choice other than 1) expensive foreign import in insignificant numbers and 2) superweapons that seek that 90% or 100% of the capability and sacrifices reality to the detriment of all.


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## proka89

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Isn't Stavatti trying to make a similar plane right now - i.e. Machete? IIRC the goal is to produce them in Serbia.



I seriously have no idea why the hell did Yugoimport signed some kind of agreement with Savatti. Those guys are obviously bunch of charlatans, led by a fraud who watched too much Star war and Star track movies. They have never developed anything, they dont have a single prototype of any of the products they are offering, and i highly doubt that they are ever gonna produce anything in Utva.

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## dBSPL

ATAK-2 is completely another class. The issue is not just the extended main body and MTOW.

Radar and laser warning systems, RF Jammer and all of its ED suits, advanced data and radio links, and probably with a + 15km maximum engagement range (Temren project), ATAK-II will have both a very sophisticated self-defense and Network-centric combat capability. It is a concept with a few examples in the world.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

dBSPL said:


> ATAK-2 is completely another class. The issue is not just the extended main body and MTOW.
> 
> Radar and laser warning systems, RF Jammer and all of its ED suits, advanced data and radio links, and probably with a + 15km maximum engagement range (Temren project), ATAK-II will have both a very sophisticated self-defense and Network-centric combat capability. It is a concept with a few examples in the world.


If so then the ATAK 2 should have a long production run, e.g. 10-15 years. That's good because Pakistan can consider incremental batch purchases (e.g. 6 a year) without forcing TA into worrying about maintaining its production line (just add to Turkish Army orders).

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## dBSPL

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If so then the ATAK 2 should have a long production run, e.g. 10-15 years. That's good because Pakistan can consider incremental batch purchases (e.g. 6 a year) without forcing TA into worrying about maintaining its production line (just add to Turkish Army orders).


Or, if an order is placed above 30, a final assembly line can be established in Pakistan.

30 helicopters not a tiny contract..
And it must happen that Pakistan will eventually reach an industrial capacity that can integrate its attack helicopter after these purchases. 

But qualified producers are few, technology-sharing partners are fewer, but market demand is high. Turkey is 4th or 5th country which export attack helicopter to another country. (Most probably this group will soon expand with China.) For this reason, the integration of the two countries in the aviation sector should deepen in production planning.

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## -------

Pakistani General Staff and accompanying delegation at Farnborough observed ATAK demonstration flight

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1018870178136944640

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## -------

Some details have emerged from Farnborough Airshow regarding Pakistan's configuration of 30 T-129.

10 - T129-BI
20 - T129-BII


*T129-BI*
Missile warning Receiver
Flare dispenser
IR suppressor
Local Tactical Communication/Data link
Full weapons integration.


*T129-BII *(_incl above systems_)
Laser Warning Receiver
Radar Warning Receiver
Radio Frequency Jammer
Chaff Dispenser
BLOS Communication - 9681 V / UHF Radio (High / Very High Band Transmitter)

In this picture T129-BII is being developed within a lab environment on a 'Iron Bird' rig.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Combat-Master said:


> Some details have emerged from Farnborough Airshow regarding Pakistan's configuration of 30 T-129.
> 
> 10 - T129-BI
> 20 - T129-BII
> 
> 
> *T129-BI*
> Missile warning
> Flare dispenser
> IR suppressor
> Local Tactical Communication/Data link
> Full weapons integration.
> 
> 
> *T129-BII *(_incl above systems_)
> Laser Warning Receiver
> Radar Warning Receiver
> Radar Jammer
> Chaff and Flare Dispenser
> 9681 V / UHF Radio (High / Very High Band Transmitter)
> 
> In this picture T129-BII is being developed within a lab environment on a 'Iron Bird' rig.


IMO T-129 BII sounds like a transition-step to ATAK-2 (as ATAK-2 is to include a full-featured EW/ECM suite). @Oscar ... what do you think? I think the next natural step here is to co-induct (and ideally, co-produce) the ATAK-2 with Turkey as the PAA is already preparing for the conceptual side of the ATAK-2.

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## Signalian

Combat-Master said:


> Some details have emerged from Farnborough Airshow regarding Pakistan's configuration of 30 T-129.
> 
> 10 - T129-BI
> 20 - T129-BII
> 
> 
> *T129-BI*
> Missile warning Receiver
> Flare dispenser
> IR suppressor
> Local Tactical Communication/Data link
> Full weapons integration.
> 
> 
> *T129-BII *(_incl above systems_)
> Laser Warning Receiver
> Radar Warning Receiver
> Radio Frequency Jammer
> Chaff Dispenser
> BLOS Communication - 9681 V / UHF Radio (High / Very High Band Transmitter)
> 
> In this picture T129-BII is being developed within a lab environment on a 'Iron Bird' rig.


what about the Mmw Radar?


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO T-129 BII sounds like a transition-step to ATAK-2 (as ATAK-2 is to include a full-featured EW/ECM suite). @Oscar ... what do you think? I think the next natural step here is to co-induct (and ideally, co-produce) the ATAK-2 with Turkey as the PAA is already preparing for the conceptual side of the ATAK-2.


Looks more like a gradual block increment. I frankly see no cost benefit in doing a local ATAK coproduction as we do not have the necessary skilled labor available to back up all these projects. We barely had enough personnel to churn out Jf-17s and AWC is the only facility with the existing infrastructure to accommodate the equipment and jigs.. HIT is still stuck in the 70’s.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Looks more like a gradual block increment. I frankly see no cost benefit in doing a local ATAK coproduction as we do not have the necessary skilled labor available to back up all these projects. We barely had enough personnel to churn out Jf-17s and AWC is the only facility with the existing infrastructure to accommodate the equipment and jigs.. HIT is still stuck in the 70’s.


The main potential cost benefit of co-production is pushing some parts out back to Turkey, basically reverse some of the foreign/hard-currency costs and get some of the acquisition spent locally. But I agree; feasibly doing it will depend on whether PAC has the wherewithal to do it at present, not require a follow-on expense.

That said, incrementally receiving 5-6 helicopters a year (current program) and then joining the Turkish Army's block increments sounds like a synchronized order. Basically, when the ATAK-2 is available and in production, the PAA could just orders those in small batches in parallel to Turkey.

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## ZedZeeshan

Signalian said:


> what about the Mmw Radar?


what about it..??


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## dBSPL

The T-129 Atak was a technology transfer for main body design and the provision of some critical subsystems from abroad. (During this time, mass production experience was achieved in many critical sub-production areas such as PAL production, powertrain gearboxes etc. ) And actually this project meet immediate needs.

ATAKII will be designed with national and local facilities and capabilities in the light of technological know-how and operational experience. Because of the fact that it will now entirely a domestic helicopter, export barriers will also be completely abolished.

Pakistan has made a great timing in the transition process between these two projects.



Signalian said:


> what about the Mmw Radar?


Domestic MWR is ready. Integration activities are underway. In Atak-1, modular usage is envisaged on pylon. At Atak-2 we expect to MWR be included as standard equipment under the body. My idea that Atak-2 is mostly will used for suppression of armored units, while Atak-1 is used against light armored and asymmetric targets. If we establish an equation over Pakistan, the first party helicopters will fight against terrorism, while ongoing deliveries will serve to balance the enemy countries.

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## fatman17



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## war&peace

Sir has the deal been signed already? because some people were suggesting it will be signed by the new govt.


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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The main potential cost benefit of co-production is pushing some parts out back to Turkey, basically reverse some of the foreign/hard-currency costs and get some of the acquisition spent locally. But I agree; feasibly doing it will depend on whether PAC has the wherewithal to do it at present, not require a follow-on expense.
> 
> That said, incrementally receiving 5-6 helicopters a year (current program) and then joining the Turkish Army's block increments sounds like a synchronized order. Basically, when the ATAK-2 is available and in production, the PAA could just orders those in small batches in parallel to Turkey.



It's interesting to note that 36 T129-BI have been delivered out of 38 ordered for TAF. So the production at TAI was ready to transition to T129-BII. It is very possible that Pakistan's T129-BI is being assembled in this video;

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## fatman17

war&peace said:


> Sir has the deal been signed already? because some people were suggesting it will be signed by the new govt.


Signed Sir

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## Silahtar

The newly-rebranded Turkish Aerospace, formerly Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), is pushing to dominate the medium to heavy helicopter markets through two new models.

The aircraft will be spanning the civil and military side; however, the company currently awaits confirmation from the Turkish government to proceed from the quotation it supplied to development stages.

In an interview with Shephard at Paris Air Show in 2017, Metİn Olcay, business development of the helicopter group at the-then TAI, explained to Shephard that the company was looking at growing its helicopter portfolio.

‘We want to complete our range of helicopters, we want more than two [aircraft]. In 2018 we will be starting on other helicopter designs, smaller or larger [than the existing rotorcraft] - it will be customer dependent,’ Olcay said.

Temel Kotil, president and CEO at Turkish Aerospace, confirmed to Shephard that talks were underway with the Turkish government as the company prepared to expand further into the medium to heavy segments.

Currently, the company has the 5t T129 Atak and the 6t T625 multirole helicopter. The current vision is for a couple more platforms bigger than the incumbent aircraft.

*Kotil said that a quotation has been provided to the Turkish government in relation to a new 8t attack helicopter which he is hopeful to sign a contract for in the next couple of months.* *The company, Kotil explained, was with the government also exploring a 12t civil helicopter which would carry 20-plus passengers, although this was still in its infancy.*

In October 2017, the company announced that the Atak 2, a combination of the T129 Atak and T625, was under development. Atak 2 will have increased payload capacity and modern avionic systems. Whether this is the attack platform considered at this stage is yet to be determined.

*On 13 July this year, the company announced it had finalised 30 T129 Atak helicopters to be delivered to Pakistan. The contract also included: logistics; ammunition; spares; ground support equipment and training.*

The first aircraft is anticipated to be delivered within 12 months, Kotil said. He explained the attack helicopters alongside the Anka UAV have been received well by the Turkish armed forces. The service has been utilising the aircraft for interior operations as well as border security missions.
*
‘We have signed the [Pakistan] contract already. The deliveries are set for less than a year for the first purchase. There will be 30 machines altogether. [For] the Turkish Land Forces we have delivered 35 [T129] already,’ Kotil said.*

The company is hopeful for more orders and whilst he would not divulge prospects; it is believed *Kazakhstan could purchase the T129* to bolster its ageing fleet when it looks to modernise its aircraft in the near-future.

The company’s civil platform the T625 is due for its first flight imminently and is on schedule. ‘The first flight is this September 6th. It will be around 6am in the morning [because] it is cooler in the morning. We [will] finish the transmission, we [will] test the transmission and *this Monday [23 July] we have the first engine fire*,’ he said to Shephard.

A mock-up of the company’s light attack Hürjet platform is on display at Farnborough and *Kotil is hopeful that in 2021*, the aircraft will take its first flight.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/...rough-2018-turkish-aerospace-expanding-helic/

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## cabatli_53

Silahtar said:


> The newly-rebranded Turkish Aerospace, formerly Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), is pushing to dominate the medium to heavy helicopter markets through two new models.
> 
> The aircraft will be spanning the civil and military side; however, the company currently awaits confirmation from the Turkish government to proceed from the quotation it supplied to development stages.
> 
> In an interview with Shephard at Paris Air Show in 2017, Metİn Olcay, business development of the helicopter group at the-then TAI, explained to Shephard that the company was looking at growing its helicopter portfolio.
> 
> ‘We want to complete our range of helicopters, we want more than two [aircraft]. In 2018 we will be starting on other helicopter designs, smaller or larger [than the existing rotorcraft] - it will be customer dependent,’ Olcay said.
> 
> Temel Kotil, president and CEO at Turkish Aerospace, confirmed to Shephard that talks were underway with the Turkish government as the company prepared to expand further into the medium to heavy segments.
> 
> Currently, the company has the 5t T129 Atak and the 6t T625 multirole helicopter. The current vision is for a couple more platforms bigger than the incumbent aircraft.
> 
> *Kotil said that a quotation has been provided to the Turkish government in relation to a new 8t attack helicopter which he is hopeful to sign a contract for in the next couple of months.* *The company, Kotil explained, was with the government also exploring a 12t civil helicopter which would carry 20-plus passengers, although this was still in its infancy.*
> 
> In October 2017, the company announced that the Atak 2, a combination of the T129 Atak and T625, was under development. Atak 2 will have increased payload capacity and modern avionic systems. Whether this is the attack platform considered at this stage is yet to be determined.
> 
> *On 13 July this year, the company announced it had finalised 30 T129 Atak helicopters to be delivered to Pakistan. The contract also included: logistics; ammunition; spares; ground support equipment and training.*
> 
> The first aircraft is anticipated to be delivered within 12 months, Kotil said. He explained the attack helicopters alongside the Anka UAV have been received well by the Turkish armed forces. The service has been utilising the aircraft for interior operations as well as border security missions.
> *
> ‘We have signed the [Pakistan] contract already. The deliveries are set for less than a year for the first purchase. There will be 30 machines altogether. [For] the Turkish Land Forces we have delivered 35 [T129] already,’ Kotil said.*
> 
> The company is hopeful for more orders and whilst he would not divulge prospects; it is believed *Kazakhstan could purchase the T129* to bolster its ageing fleet when it looks to modernise its aircraft in the near-future.
> 
> The company’s civil platform the T625 is due for its first flight imminently and is on schedule. ‘The first flight is this September 6th. It will be around 6am in the morning [because] it is cooler in the morning. We [will] finish the transmission, we [will] test the transmission and *this Monday [23 July] we have the first engine fire*,’ he said to Shephard.
> 
> A mock-up of the company’s light attack Hürjet platform is on display at Farnborough and *Kotil is hopeful that in 2021*, the aircraft will take its first flight.
> 
> https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/...rough-2018-turkish-aerospace-expanding-helic/



Civilian/Military utility helicopters
-3 tons (?)
-6 tons (T-625) 12+ passenger
-12 tons 20+ passenger

Attack helicopters
-Atak-1 (5tons)
-Atak-2 (8tons)

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## dBSPL

The T625 project is planned as a product family starting from 4 tones and reaching up to 12 tons.

Apart from TAI, there is also a light civil helicopter project initiated by Havesan in 2016. 4 seats and for air-taxi, fire fighting, health services, observation, coast guard is targeted to use in areas such as. Among the main objectives of the project is the certification by AESA. The project is supported by Tübitak and progressed through the consultancy of two different universities.

Also, the T70 general purpose helicopter project is very similar to the Atak-T129.

T700-GE-701D will be integrated in the TEI facilities with 60% domestic industry contribution. Domestic industry participation share in all T70s with 11 main subcontractors is about 70%. In addition, depot level maintenance of the helicopters will take place in Turkey. Together with all these, TAI will have the right to sell to third countries. The T70 will be one of the most important milestones for the Turkish aerospace industry. (This helicopter is best in its class)

So, Includes under license and domestic design , the Turkish aerospace industry will produce 6 or 8 different helicopter bodies , within 10-12 years.

( This message based on informations mostly given by the Cabatli master in different forum titles  )

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

dBSPL said:


> The T625 project is planned as a product family starting from 4 tones and reaching up to 12 tons.
> 
> Apart from TAI, there is also a light civil helicopter project initiated by Havesan in 2016. 4 seats and for air-taxi, fire fighting, health services, observation, coast guard is targeted to use in areas such as. Among the main objectives of the project is the certification by AESA. The project is supported by Tübitak and progressed through the consultancy of two different universities.
> 
> Also, the T70 general purpose helicopter project is very similar to the Atak-T129.
> 
> T700-GE-701D will be integrated in the TEI facilities with 60% domestic industry contribution. Domestic industry participation share in all T70s with 11 main subcontractors is about 70%. In addition, depot level maintenance of the helicopters will take place in Turkey. Together with all these, TAI will have the right to sell to third countries. The T70 will be one of the most important milestones for the Turkish aerospace industry. (This helicopter is best in its class)
> 
> So, Includes under license and domestic design , the Turkish aerospace industry will produce 6 or 8 different helicopter bodies , within 10-12 years.
> 
> ( This message based on informations mostly given by the Cabatli master in different forum titles  )


The Pakistan Army has aging Puma helicopters. Granted, Pakistan's Pumas are the smaller IAR330/SA330s, which have about as much seating capacity as the AW139 (which the PAF already inducted). So it'll be interesting to see how the PAA looks at replacing the Puma, i.e. AW139 or T-70 from Turkish Aerospace?

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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Pakistan Army has aging Puma helicopters. Granted, Pakistan's Pumas are the smaller IAR330/SA330s, which have about as much seating capacity as the AW139 (which the PAF already inducted). So it'll be interesting to see how the PAA looks at replacing the Puma, i.e. AW139 or T-70 from Turkish Aerospace?



One important detail to note is that the 8ton attack helicopter Turkey is to begin developing will share transmission and engines with the 12 ton medium lift helicopter, so maintenance and parts commonality would be shared reducing costs significantly. 

Turkey is basically developing it's own Rooivalk Attack helicopter which is also based on a medium lift helicopter, the Puma.

I believe the 6ton attack helicopter we've seen artists renderings on that was going to be based off T625 has been shelved, for now, since foreign suppliers are no longer blocking parts for T-129.

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## khanasifm

More likely this is not just for paa order but all order once pac acquires capability and may be financial viability is much better 

However, bar revealing the helicopters will be delivered incrementally over five years, there is nothing to indicate local assembly is part of the deal, and this may have been replaced with an agreement for parts manufacturing.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ish-t129-attack-helos-to-replace-aging-fleet/


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## SQ8

A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
Big words
@Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> View attachment 487442
> A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
> Big words
> @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer


There's some relativity ... I don't think NATO particularly cares what Pakistan does or doesn't do, but the Philippines, Thailand, Azerbaijan, etc could be keeping an eye on Pakistan. These are, after all, the markets Turkey's also interested in gaining in due time. Moreover, they're more or less as cost-sensitive as Pakistan too.

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## royalharris

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There's some relativity ... I don't think NATO particularly cares what Pakistan does or doesn't do, but the Philippines, Thailand, Azerbaijan, etc could be keeping an eye on Pakistan. These are, after all, the markets Turkey's also interested in gaining in due time. Moreover, they're more or less as cost-sensitive as Pakistan too.



Lovely


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## HRK

I think bit of exaggerated compliment might be because of first successful sale agreement but successful completion of 4 years of testing in different and difficult conditions in Turkey and in Pakistan should be the reason enough to be extra cheerful 














But what I am still trying to figure out if the same test for the range (flying directly from Quetta to Multan) was conducted for Z-10 than why it did not achieve success as the range of Z-10 is more than the distance b/w Quetta and Multan which is ~450 KM (as per article 480 KM)

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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> View attachment 487442
> A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
> Big words
> @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer



bit of both but good marketing ploy . lol

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## Chimgathar

PA took more time since it was a newer machine, probably only Italy and Turkey operate it.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Oscar said:


> View attachment 487442
> A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
> Big words
> @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer



Genuine and true. Pakistan Army tests, tests, and tests. I have had Chuck Yeager say the same thing about our testing and training.

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## GriffinsRule

From Flight International July 24-30, 2018

Turkish Aerospace – newly rebranded without the former Industries suffix – is confident of winning more international orders for its T129 ATAK helicopter, having secured a 30-unit deal with Pakistan on the eve of the Farnborough show.

A delivery schedule with Islamabad has yet to be agreed as export license formalities must first be cleared with the Turkish and Italian defence ministries, says Gorkem Bilgi, corporate marketing manager at Turkish Aerospace. 

Rome is involved because the T129 is largely based on the Leonardo Helicopters AW129 Mangusta. In addition, the helicopter’s T800 engines are produced by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company – a joint venture between Honeywell and Rolls-Royce.

Once the export conditions are satisfied, deliveries can commence in three months, says Bilgi.

The Pakistan deal is a watershed moment for Turkey’s aerospace industry, he says. “Following Pakistan there are a lot of countries that we are negotiating with. Pakistan is a tough customer. We went to the Himalayas for high-altitude tests, we went to the desert for testing in hot conditions at 52°C [125°F]. They tested the helicopter for four years. It’s kind of a diploma – if you sell a helicopter to Pakistan, then all countries are interested.”

Specifically, the T129 is in contention for attack helicopter requirements in Bangladesh, Morocco and Thailand. Of these, Morocco is looking to buy 24 and Thailand 12-15. Bangladesh has yet to determine a quantity.

While Bilgi says the relationship with Leonardo, which helped develop the T129, is strong, the companies have different attack helicopter paths in the future. Turkish Aerospace’s focus going forward will be on the updated ATAK II, while Leonardo is developing the AW249.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Genuine and true. Pakistan Army tests, tests, and tests. I have had Chuck Yeager say the same thing about our testing and training.


Perhaps true, and I guess the T129 is a great choice. But on a side note, even after thorough tests in which all the evaluating officers strongly advised against the mp5, a certain general with connections with the H&K middle man made it happen; and a billion rupees were wasted.

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> I think bit of exaggerated compliment might be because of first successful sale agreement but successful completion of 4 years of testing in different and difficult conditions in Turkey and in Pakistan should be the reason enough to be extra cheerful
> View attachment 487447
> View attachment 487448
> View attachment 487449
> View attachment 487450
> 
> 
> But what I am still trying to figure out if the same test for the range (flying directly from Quetta to Multan) was conducted for Z-10 than why it did not achieve success as the range of Z-10 is more than the distance b/w Quetta and Multan which is ~450 KM (as per article 480 KM)


is it possible to have better photograph of it?


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> is it possible to have better photograph of it?


I also downloaded it from this forum I think originally posted by @khanasifm or by @Gryphon

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## Bilal Khan 777

Oscar said:


> Perhaps true, and I guess the T129 is a great choice. But on a side note, even after thorough tests in which all the evaluating officers strongly advised against the mp5, a certain general with connections with the H&K middle man made it happen; and a billion rupees were wasted.



Look. Such things happen everywhere, and Pakistan is no exception. Kindly don't be like MK and give sweeping generalizations and broad strokes. MP5, with all its issues for the Pakistani version, is a good CQB Machine Pistol. It has served PK well in many situations. The topic is the Turkish Helicopter, which is a great decision made by Pakistan.



GriffinsRule said:


> From Flight International July 24-30, 2018
> 
> Turkish Aerospace – newly rebranded without the former Industries suffix – is confident of winning more international orders for its T129 ATAK helicopter, having secured a 30-unit deal with Pakistan on the eve of the Farnborough show.
> 
> A delivery schedule with Islamabad has yet to be agreed as export license formalities must first be cleared with the Turkish and Italian defence ministries, says Gorkem Bilgi, corporate marketing manager at Turkish Aerospace.
> 
> Rome is involved because the T129 is largely based on the Leonardo Helicopters AW129 Mangusta. In addition, the helicopter’s T800 engines are produced by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company – a joint venture between Honeywell and Rolls-Royce.
> 
> Once the export conditions are satisfied, deliveries can commence in three months, says Bilgi.
> 
> The Pakistan deal is a watershed moment for Turkey’s aerospace industry, he says. “Following Pakistan there are a lot of countries that we are negotiating with. Pakistan is a tough customer. We went to the Himalayas for high-altitude tests, we went to the desert for testing in hot conditions at 52°C [125°F]. They tested the helicopter for four years. It’s kind of a diploma – if you sell a helicopter to Pakistan, then all countries are interested.”
> 
> Specifically, the T129 is in contention for attack helicopter requirements in Bangladesh, Morocco and Thailand. Of these, Morocco is looking to buy 24 and Thailand 12-15. Bangladesh has yet to determine a quantity.
> 
> While Bilgi says the relationship with Leonardo, which helped develop the T129, is strong, the companies have different attack helicopter paths in the future. Turkish Aerospace’s focus going forward will be on the updated ATAK II, while Leonardo is developing the AW249.



As I have suggested many times before, Turkey is now officially the other door for European and other western technology to be "absorbed" and sold to countries where direct sales are not possible. This case is a great example. However, i won't doubt that the Turkish honour brigade will come after me and ridicule me for my opinions. I guess nobody is allowed to think freely, specifically if it questions the military industrial complex of any country, Turkey and China included.


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## KapitaanAli

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> As I have suggested many times before, Turkey is now officially the other door for European and other western technology to be "absorbed" and sold to countries where direct sales are not possible. This case is a great example.


It's not just about taboo markets.
T129 is an Italian masterstroke to capture markets that they'd otherwise lose to other Euros and Americans, thanks to Turkey's immunity against western lobbying in many markets.

But I admire the Turks for making the most of it.

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## Imran Khan

Oscar said:


> View attachment 487442
> A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
> Big words
> @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer


*i have seen the real national interest *

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## Aamir Hussain

MP was and still used by a lot of top line Special Forces units in CQB. So it was not a bad buy at all. However, as a section lead weapon it has little to offer and a 9 mm weapon was not suited for this role.

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## Bratva

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Genuine and true. Pakistan Army tests, tests, and tests. I have had Chuck Yeager say the same thing about our testing and training.



Wow. You are ancient baba jee.

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## -------

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> As I have suggested many times before, Turkey is now officially the other door for European and other western technology to be "absorbed" and sold to countries where direct sales are not possible. This case is a great example. However, i won't doubt that the Turkish honour brigade will come after me and ridicule me for my opinions. I guess nobody is allowed to think freely, specifically if it questions the military industrial complex of any country, Turkey and China included.



You've worded it in a much better way then you have in the past, so we'll give you a pass. 

Back to thread topic, T-129BII variant which Pakistan has requested 20 of is reported to be integrated with CATS E/O turret. 
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/CATS_ENG.pdf

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## ghazi52

*AhmAd IbrAhim*‏ @AhmAdTipu7
Inside @TUSAS_EN Turkish T129-BII is being developed within a lab environment on a 'Iron Bird'.


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## Bratva

Combat-Master said:


> You've worded it in a much better way then you have in the past, so we'll give you a pass.
> 
> Back to thread topic, T-129BII variant which Pakistan has requested 20 of is reported to be integrated with CATS E/O turret.
> https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/CATS_ENG.pdf
> View attachment 487606



Block I is not equipped with this EO turret ?


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## -------

Bratva said:


> Block I is not equipped with this EO turret ?



Block I uses AselFlir-300T.
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/ASELFLIR300T_ENG.pdf

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## merzifonlu

The AselFlir-300T is an effective EO Turret. But the CATS are lighter and more modern EO Turret. There is almost half the weight difference between the two.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Should order up to 100 helicopters to fully retire the cobra fleet or donate it to Palestine defence force


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## Ahmet Pasha

Their arrogant arab superiority *** wont accept from us lowly ajmis


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Should order up to 100 helicopters to fully retire the cobra fleet or donate it to Palestine defence force


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> View attachment 487442
> A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
> Big words
> @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer


#

Pakistani army aviation pilots have been making headlines to make any manufacturer proud and we all know how some latest products failed to meet PAA specifications. 
And if this is exaggeration then i wonder how many countries will be bestowed with such credibility.

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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Their arrogant arab superiority *** wont accept from us lowly ajmis


You cant just hand over products from third providers to anyone you like. This notion is simply ridiculous. It is not a matter of Arab superiority. There is no training infrastructure whatsoever. And how are you going to train them to fly. Where are they going to house them and who will look after these birds. Plus do you not have enough enemies without taking on another fìght.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Oscar @Horus

Knowing that the PAA has 30 T129Bs on order and, in all likelihood, it could potentially procure the ATAK-2 in 10 years (when available), do you think there's enough scope to go even lighter in terms of attack helicopters?

China and Japan have shown that even with a 4 to 4.5 ton (MTOW), tandem-seated design (e.g. Z-19E, OH-1) you can have an integrated EO/IR turret with SALH ATGM and 70 mm rockets. Sure, there are clear range and payload limits, but the cost of a "Cobra rehash" is markedly much less than a larger attack helicopter.

With the T129, the PAA has effectively handled its high-altitude operating ops environment, which had been a major strain on the AH-1F/S over the past decade. Given how fiscal limits will constrain the PAA's ability to pick-up many 8+ ton attack helicopter designs (or at least at a fast enough pace), perhaps a Z-19E/OH-1-like design has merits?

Such helicopters can operate in lower altitude CAS environments (deserts, plains), yet - qualitatively speaking - offer the core anti-tank and anti-infantry capability of the ATAK. But the downside is defensibility (not enough power for more armour, entirely reliant on the self-protection suite).

Likewise, while the procurement cost is certain to be lower, you'd need more of the small attack helicopter to match the impact of a larger counterpart. That could add to the long-term operating cost of having them, and - possibly - their impact could be matched by a fewer number of ATAK/ATAK-2.

Really, the question is ... would you have enough money to afford the necessary number of ATAK-2 or would you need to think about a cheaper/lighter platform as a means to spread CAS coverage across more of your force?

Still, the alternative is rational as well.

Just double-down on the platform you chose (T129) and, in turn, gradually build-up. You have a 30-40+ year life-cycle, so if you just issue incremental orders on an annual (or at least regular) basis of 4-6 per year in 10-15 years, you can add 40-60+ more ATAK/-2.

In fact, in contrast to the Heavy/Light combination India is taking via the AH-64E and LCH, the ATAK-2 would cut down the middle as a 8-ton AH-1Z-class system. Your approach with such a platform would be to consolidate on that one, medium-weight platform, but your final numbers would sit between India's Apache and LCH forces.

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## cabatli_53

Aselsan completes first modernised Bahraini AH-1, Glass cockpit, Mission computer, navigation system, weapon system and E/O modernised.




@Combat-Master

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## Kompromat

I tend to think that the UCAVs will under cut attack helicopters in a decade as their operational doctrines evolve and new uses are found.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar @Horus
> 
> Knowing that the PAA has 30 T129Bs on order and, in all likelihood, it could potentially procure the ATAK-2 in 10 years (when available), do you think there's enough scope to go even lighter in terms of attack helicopters?
> 
> China and Japan have shown that even with a 4 to 4.5 ton (MTOW), tandem-seated design (e.g. Z-19E, OH-1) you can have an integrated EO/IR turret with SALH ATGM and 70 mm rockets. Sure, there are clear range and payload limits, but the cost of a "Cobra rehash" is markedly much less than a larger attack helicopter.
> 
> With the T129, the PAA has effectively handled its high-altitude operating ops environment, which had been a major strain on the AH-1F/S over the past decade. Given how fiscal limits will constrain the PAA's ability to pick-up many 8+ ton attack helicopter designs (or at least at a fast enough pace), perhaps a Z-19E/OH-1-like design has merits?
> 
> Such helicopters can operate in lower altitude CAS environments (deserts, plains), yet - qualitatively speaking - offer the core anti-tank and anti-infantry capability of the ATAK. But the downside is defensibility (not enough power for more armour, entirely reliant on the self-protection suite).
> 
> Likewise, while the procurement cost is certain to be lower, you'd need more of the small attack helicopter to match the impact of a larger counterpart. That could add to the long-term operating cost of having them, and - possibly - their impact could be matched by a fewer number of ATAK/ATAK-2.
> 
> Really, the question is ... would you have enough money to afford the necessary number of ATAK-2 or would you need to think about a cheaper/lighter platform as a means to spread CAS coverage across more of your force?
> 
> Still, the alternative is rational as well.
> 
> Just double-down on the platform you chose (T129) and, in turn, gradually build-up. You have a 30-40+ year life-cycle, so if you just issue incremental orders on an annual (or at least regular) basis of 4-6 per year in 10-15 years, you can add 40-60+ more ATAK/-2.
> 
> In fact, in contrast to the Heavy/Light combination India is taking via the AH-64E and LCH, the ATAK-2 would cut down the middle as a 8-ton AH-1Z-class system. Your approach with such a platform would be to consolidate on that one, medium-weight platform, but your final numbers would sit between India's Apache and LCH forces.

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## Zarvan

Forwarded by a Turkish friend:

“"Pakistan is a tough customer," he said. We went to Himalayal for high altitude tests, we went to the deserts to test the helicopter in hot conditions at 52C. ATAK has been tested for four years. This is a kind diploma if you are selling a helicopter to Pakistan, then all countries will be interested, "he said.

Visual Information highlighted TAI's focus on the Atak II model in the future.”

TAI Marketing manager said this. 

After Pakistan, Morocco, Thailand and Bangladesh are also interested in ATAK.

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## AKINCI

*Atak Engine Waits for November

C4Defence reveals how Turkish Aerospace Industries (TUSAS) will work on getting export license for T-129 Atak helicopter engines will be exported to Pakistan. Pakistan has recently inked a deal with TUSAS to acquire 30 T-129 Atak Helicopter.

The IP rights of the helicopter engine are in the hands of LHTEC, a joint venture between the US firm Honeywell and the UK firm Rolls-Royce.

C4Defence has learned that prior applying for an official permission there were other steps to be passed. The "adviser opinion" process has been successfully completed. The "Advice Opinion" has been made available. This means US Government may bring the sale of such goods in agenda during official discussions. It means they can say they like the product. Such phrases indicate that US is aware of negotiations and supports it.

For a commercial product, it is necessary to obtain export licenses from the US Trade Secretary, for military ones from Pentagon. Engine that Turkey needs to sell to Pakistan requires Pentagon’s export licence. According to the negotiations between Turkey and Pakistan, the decision should be taken until November

http://en.c4defence.com/Agenda/atak-engine-waits-for-november/6819/1*

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## Armchair

Oscar said:


> View attachment 487442
> A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
> Big words
> @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer



I think there is definitely an element of truth as attack helicopters have consistently had problems being combat effective at altitude (tall mountains). Apaches have had serious problems in Afghanistan and in Kosovo. Attack helicopters were first designed for Vietnam as escorts for heli-borne forces. This was part of a philosophy being pursued of an air cavalry, or a new form of maneuver warfare. Later, it became a way for US Army to continue to have an organic air component, as they were banned from fixed wing CAS. 

Most countries that purchase attack helicopters do so in a vacuum lacking this historical narrative and they want to see were they can use it. Countries with hot and high conditions will look at Pakistan's purchase as this will be a stamp of approval, given the competitive selection.


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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Forwarded by a Turkish friend:
> 
> “"Pakistan is a tough customer," he said. We went to Himalayal for high altitude tests, we went to the deserts to test the helicopter in hot conditions at 52C. ATAK has been tested for four years. This is a kind diploma if you are selling a helicopter to Pakistan, then all countries will be interested, "he said.
> 
> Visual Information highlighted TAI's focus on the Atak II model in the future.”
> 
> TAI Marketing manager said this.
> 
> After Pakistan, Morocco, Thailand and Bangladesh are also interested in ATAK.


Its already posted here two weeks back. Also coming in flightglobal as part of their interview.


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## Windjammer

*
The T-129 being put through it's paces in Pakistan.*

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## shawn52

WE Have Everything to face our enemies


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## Beast

With Turkey and US r/s worsen until the stage of no repair. How will it affect T-129 sales? Sure we know American will deny export of LH-500 engine for T-129 attack helo. I do heard the news of turkey successfully tested a domestic turboshaft but the timeline to real operation production will not be ready soon.


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## YeBeWarned

Beast said:


> With Turkey and US r/s worsen until the stage of no repair. How will it affect T-129 sales? Sure we know American will deny export of LH-500 engine for T-129 attack helo. I do heard the news of turkey successfully tested a domestic turboshaft but the timeline to real operation production will not be ready soon.



It won't get effected , as long as Turkey-US relations goes to the point of no return .. plus i think Turkey and Pakistan both have discussed this issue before hand signing the deal of 1.5 B$ for 30 choppers , so i think so far we are good and Deliveries will be starting on time .. can't say about AH-Z1


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## Chimgathar

Well the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta uses Rolls-Royce Gem 2-1004D turboshaft engines, cant these be used for T-129s?


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## GriffinsRule

Chimgathar said:


> Well the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta uses Rolls-Royce Gem 2-1004D turboshaft engines, cant these be used for T-129s?


No, they are underpowered engines


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## BHarwana

The T-129 order will be completed in 5 years. With 1 helicopter completed every 2 months.

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## Chimgathar

1 helo per 2 months seems too good to be true for TAI, its a complex gunship helo requires system plus weapons testing prior delivery


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## Gryphon

Excerpt from:

T129 ATAK Helicopters and ADA Class Corvettes Sale to Pakistan
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ






According to an Election Manifesto of the ruling Justice and Development Party (AK Party), which was announced on May 24, 2018, Ankara and Islamabad have signed a deal for the sale of 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. The confirmation of the anticipated sale was revealed at the Defence, Aerospace and Space Section of the AK Party’s election manifesto, which was released ahead of the June 24, Presidential and General Election. The election manifesto states that, “a very short while ago a contract for the sale of 30 T129 ATAK helicopters was signed with Pakistan”. 

After around two months on July 13, 2018 both the SSB (as of July 10th, 2018 the name of Undersecretariat for Defence Industries [SSM] was changed to the Presidency of Defence Industries [SSB]) and Turkish Aerospace (Turkish Aerospace Industries [TAI] was rebranded as Turkish Aerospace [TA] on July 11, 2018) have issued statements to confirm the T129 sale to Pakistan.

The SSB announced that Turkey and Pakistan have finalized a deal for Pakistan’s purchase of 30 T129 Advanced Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters (ATAK). “Contract negotiations on T129 ATAK helicopters between Turkish Aerospace (TA) and the Pakistani Ministry of Defence Production were finalized,” the Presidency said in a statement. “This is one of the biggest single defence export deals for Turkish Industry”, the statement said without specifying the value of the contract. However, according to sources the value of the contract is around US$1.5 Billion. The Turkish Government has been working to allocate US$1.5 Billion in credit to Pakistan to finance this deal. According to TA’s statement under the contract the Pakistan Army will receive 30 T129 ATAK Helicopters and a comprehensive package of support measures, to include logistics, munitions, spare parts, ground support equipment and training. *Turkish Aerospace will start Pakistan Army’s T129Bs deliveries in next three to four months and complete them by the end of 2022. Under the Pakistan Army T129 ATAK Helicopter Project, TA has also offered Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) parts manufacturing work for the T129 helicopters. *

*Sources revealed to DEFENCE TURKEY that the Pakistan Army’s T129 ATAK Helicopters will have similar configuration with Turkish Army’s T129Bs and the first batch of 10 helicopters would be delivered in T129B Phase I configuration and the remaining 20 helicopters in T129B Phase II configuration. At the final phase of the program first batch 10 helicopters will be upgraded to Phase II configuration.* The major differences between Phase I and Phase II are at the FLIR payload and at EW Self-Protection Suit. At Phase II T129Bs contrary to AselFLIR-300T EO/IR Targeting System new generation CATS (Common Aperture Targeting System) Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Targeting System will be deployed. Although it is lighter and smaller than the second generation AselFLIR-300T used in T129A/B Helicopters and Heron and ANKA Unmanned Air Vehicles, it stands out with its superior features. The CATS, which weighs 60kgs is lighter than the AselFLIR-300T weighing 120kgs. While the T129As and T129B Phase I helicopters are equipped with only AN/ALQ-144 IRCM, ÖzIşık CMDS and MWS-TU Missile Warning System (MWS) sensors the Phase II T129Bs will also feature Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), Radio Frequency Jammer (RFJ), Laser Warning Receiver (LWR) and 9681 V/UHF Radio sets.

*On July 5, Aselsan received a US$254.725,195 Million contract from Turkish Aerospace (TA). Deliveries under the contract will take place during 2018-2022. This order probably has been given under the Pakistan Army T129 ATAK Helicopter Project.*

Turkish Aerospace (TA) is the Prime Contractor of the T129 ATAK Program, covering the manufacture and delivery of 9 T129As, 50 T129Bs (29 in Phase I and 21 in Phase II configurations) to the Turkish Land Forces and 27 T129Bs to the Turkish Ministry of Interior (18 T129Bs to the Turkish Gendarmerie General Command and 9 T129Bs to the Turkish Police) under license from the Italian-British AgustaWestland (rebranded as Leonardo Helicopters in 2016). *TA manufactures and delivers two T129s per month.* As of July 2018, TA has completed the delivery of 36 T129A/Bs (9A and 27Bs) to the Turkish Land Forces and 3 T129Bs to the Gendarmerie General Command.

The TA/Leonardo Helicopters T129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129C Mangusta International platform. According to SSB figures each T129 ATAK Attack & Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter costs around US$40 Million.

The T129B ATAK Helicopters sale to Pakistan would mark a significant breakthrough for the Turkish Defence & Aerospace Industry and would be the largest ever defence system export in a single project achieved to date by a Turkish defence company. This record was held by Otokar with a sale worth US$661 Million for the RABDAN 8x8 Amphibious Armoured Combat Vehicle to the UAE. 

As per the Pakistan Army Aviation Command’s official request one of T129 prototypes [tail number P6] performed high altitude and high temperature flight/endurance tests during May 20-31, 2016 in Pakistan and confirmed that the helicopter fully meets Army requirements. As part of endurance tests the T129 P6 carried out three high temperature flight tests at Pano Aqil with an average temperature of 50C, and in Pano Agal climbed to 14,000ft altitude in Hindikush. T129 P6 also performed long-range flight during sand storm from Quetta to Multan, which is base to FOB 2 hours and 40 minutes without refuelling. According to Pakistani media no other current attack helicopter has managed these tests so the T129 is the best that the Pakistan Army has seen. On March 23, 2018 a formation of three T129 ATAK Helicopters from the Turkish Land Forces took part during a military parade held in Islamabad, Pakistan.

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## khanasifm

What parts are pac share or it’s still tbd?? Are part share for all orders including Turkish and foreign or just for 30 for paa ?


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## monitor

Unless Turkey solve the engine issue by delivering indigenous engine for T-129 it could be troublesome for it's customers. We also had interest in T-129 but now Russian options are considered as later have commonality with mi-117 and no issues of parts./engine.


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## MastanKhan



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## polanski

Beast said:


> With Turkey and US r/s worsen until the stage of no repair. How will it affect T-129 sales? Sure we know American will deny export of LH-500 engine for T-129 attack helo. I do heard the news of turkey successfully tested a domestic turboshaft but the timeline to real operation production will not be ready soon.


Currently, the Congress passed no legislation which stops OEM companies supplying engines or spares to Turkey. 

Turkey has a vast Industrial cooperation with the US. Besides the engine can be outsourced from the UK, the US and Italy if Pakistan wants. The same type of engine is used in many helicopters in the west. 
This deal is more important to Turkey than just the helicopter.

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## -------

polanski said:


> Currently, the Congress passed no legislation which stops OEM companies supplying engines or spares to Turkey.
> 
> Turkey has a vast Industrial cooperation with the US. Besides the engine can be outsourced from the UK, the US and Italy if Pakistan wants. The same type of engine is used in many helicopters in the west.
> This deal is more important to Turkey than just the helicopter.



I'd also like to point out that T-129 uses a civilian export engine, so it's even more so difficult for the US to block engines on a single type.

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## polanski

FYI
Pratt & Whitney and GE supply marine propulsion and aircraft engines to Russia and China.
Harbin, Comac and Sukhoi use American engines for commercial aircraft and helicopters.
Dual purpose Technology and commercial off the shelf Technology are readily available to everyone in the planet.
Turkey, Italy, France and Sweden started to use COTS and dual purpose Technology to avoid ITAR regulation.
People please calm down, there is zero impact on the deal as off now.

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## LKJ86

polanski said:


> FYI
> Pratt & Whitney and GE supply marine propulsion and aircraft engines to Russia and China.
> Harbin, Comac and Sukhoi use American engines for commercial aircraft and helicopters.
> Dual purpose Technology and commercial off the shelf Technology are readily available to everyone in the planet.


They are all for civil use.


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## monitor

LKJ86 said:


> They are all for civil use.


What's the main deference between civilian and military version engine ?


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## LKJ86

monitor said:


> What's the main deference between civilian and military version engine ?


It is not about the difference between them, but about the permission.


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## polanski

monitor said:


> What's the main deference between civilian and military version engine ?


It depends which one you are considering. For T-129, its commercially available engine with few tweaks to accommodate engine on the Helo.
As off now, Helicopters and drones are out of CAATSA regulations. Fighter Jet and missiles are more regulated except the Arab can get their hands on almost anything for obvious reason $$$. Fighter Jet and Helicopter engines are less regulated. 

The NATO, Australia, Middle East, Pakistan and India acquired Helicopter without any objection.
I have enough reason to believe that T-129 is on the track to be exported.
America only block export of any products, civil or military if its directly compete with American products. Every country does the same thing. China would do same thing if its compete with Chinese products.

The most cases the US checks pros and cons, later approve for export. Pakistan's recent democratic transition and peaceful handover over of power deserve huge credit. The US take into account everything then approve weapons export. T-129 is good to go, as off Tuesday 4th September 2018.

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## denel

I do believe Rooivalk should be evaluated. Given you already have experience with Puma platform; this will serve as a 2 prong TOT feasibility - Both on the oryx platform as a medium lift helo as well as gunship.

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## YeBeWarned

As part of endurance tests the T129 P6 carried out three high temperature flight tests at Pano Aqil with an average temperature of 50C, and in Pano Agal climbed to 14,000ft altitude in Hindikush. *T129 P6 also performed long-range flight during sand storm from Quetta to Multan, which is base to FOB 2 hours and 40 minutes without refuelling. According to Pakistani media no other current attack helicopter has managed these tests so the T129 is the best that the Pakistan Army has seen.* On March 23, 2018 a formation of three T129 ATAK Helicopters from the Turkish Land Forces took part during a military parade held in Islamabad, Pakistan.

@cabatli_53 @T-123456 @Sinan @Hakikat ve Hikmet guys the bold part should make you proud

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## denel

Starlord said:


> As part of endurance tests the T129 P6 carried out three high temperature flight tests at Pano Aqil with an average temperature of 50C, and in Pano Agal climbed to 14,000ft altitude in Hindikush. *T129 P6 also performed long-range flight during sand storm from Quetta to Multan, which is base to FOB 2 hours and 40 minutes without refuelling. According to Pakistani media no other current attack helicopter has managed these tests so the T129 is the best that the Pakistan Army has seen.* On March 23, 2018 a formation of three T129 ATAK Helicopters from the Turkish Land Forces took part during a military parade held in Islamabad, Pakistan.
> 
> @cabatli_53 @T-123456 @Sinan @Hakikat ve Hikmet guys the bold part should make you proud


Noted, but Rooivalk has been extensively tested through kalahari sand storms and heat/cold of the drakensburg and has a hot/high configuration with longer range and slightly larger payload. Rooivalk was not part of your testing and it is a narrow statement that the press is making. Note that Rooivalk was originally being touted as a gunship for TAF in the early 90's but US put hurdles upon hurdles on TAF and prevented the sale to Turkey.

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## YeBeWarned

denel said:


> Noted, but Rooivalk has been extensively tested through kalahari sand storms and heat/cold of the drakensburg and has a hot/high configuration with longer range and slightly larger payload. Rooivalk was not part of your testing and it is a narrow statement that the press is making. Note that Rooivalk was originally being touted as a gunship for TAF in the early 90's but US put hurdles upon hurdles on TAF and prevented the sale to Turkey.



among those they evaluated if T-129 perform the best than i think we should give credit where it due ..


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## denel

Starlord said:


> among those they evaluated if T-129 perform the best than i think we should give credit where it due ..


It is ok, I am saying from the limited selection they had, this is their conclusion but they way they have put it as though it is the only one in the world that meets this requirement which is incorrect. That is all I am trying to state here. My team did the telemetric engineering work on the performance for the rooivalk which is why i am highlighting this; that there are others which can match or better what was written.

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> It is ok, I am saying from the limited selection they had, this is their conclusion but they way they have put it as though it is the only one in the world that meets this requirement which is incorrect. That is all I am trying to state here. My team did the telemetric engineering work on the performance for the rooivalk which is why i am highlighting this; that there are others which can match or better what was written.


Hi Denel it might be limited selection as you said due to Pakistan’s financial hiccups or some other reasons may be Rooivalk are not interested to give Pakistan desired technology transfer and credit line which I’m sure Turkey is happy to extend 
I might be wrong mate but if you want to put up Rooivalk in the line then there are more capable 
Items in the market only problem with Pakistan at the moment is Dosh
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you

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## polanski

I believe T-129 is the best selection for Pakistan Army. T-129 is European standard attack helicopter. 
T-129 has better radar and targeting Systems than anything China and Russia have. Plus add the weapon package.

If Pakistan has to go for another helicopter than that would be Eurocopter Tiger. This is a costly exercise. 

Bear in mind, Turkish Defense Industry is European standard but cost effective. Thanks to the US, Germany, UK and Italy for transferring Technology to Turkey.

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## T-123456

polanski said:


> I believe T-129 is the best selection for Pakistan Army. T-129 is European standard attack helicopter.
> T-129 has better radar and targeting Systems than anything China and Russia have. Plus add the weapon package.
> 
> If Pakistan has to go for another helicopter than that would be Eurocopter Tiger. This is a costly exercise.
> 
> Bear in mind, Turkish Defense Industry is European standard but cost effective.* Thanks to the US, Germany, UK and Italy for transferring Technology to Turkey*.


You are right about Italy but come on,the US,Germany and the UK,transfer of technology?
In what fantasy world did this happen?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

T-123456 said:


> You are right about Italy but come on,the US,Germany and the UK,transfer of technology?
> In what fantasy world did this happen?


He might be referring to the UK's services for the TF-X and the TAI and TEI programs with Lockheed/Sikorsky and GE (for the T-70 Black Hawk).

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## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> He might be referring to the UK's services for the TF-X and the TAI and TEI programs with Lockheed/Sikorsky and GE (for the T-70 Black Hawk).


I dont think so but ill pretend to buy it.


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## polanski

T-123456 said:


> You are right about Italy but come on,the US,Germany and the UK,transfer of technology?
> In what fantasy world did this happen?


Turkey manufactures many components of F-16. Thanks to the US.
German transferred Submarine Technology to Turkey. Italy transferred Helicopter Technology. The UK transferred many technologies of land Systems, Avionics and off course TFX.
These are just few examples but Lockheed Martin has many collaboration with Turkish defense Industry e.g. missile integration program.


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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Denel it might be limited selection as you said due to Pakistan’s financial hiccups or some other reasons may be Rooivalk are not interested to give Pakistan desired technology transfer and credit line which I’m sure Turkey is happy to extend
> I might be wrong mate but if you want to put up Rooivalk in the line then there are more capable
> Items in the market only problem with Pakistan at the moment is Dosh
> Your input will be appreciated
> Thank you


I dont think they were approached; there is a huge potential but somehow never materialises.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> I dont think they were approached; there is a huge potential but somehow never materialises.


They were never on the map. In the 5 IDEAS exhibitions I have been to in the past 15 years, I have yet to see the roolivak or anything other than a small stand by Denel Dynamics.
Bell, Eurocopter, Harbin and TAI have solid presence which frequents Pakistani officers and government official.
The only thing I saw from SA as a model was the G-6. 

You can claim to and have the best equipment, but if you incapable of marketing it then you have no customer.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> They were never on the map. In the 5 IDEAS exhibitions I have been to in the past 15 years, I have yet to see the roolivak or anything other than a small stand by Denel Dynamics.
> Bell, Eurocopter, Harbin and TAI have solid presence which frequents Pakistani officers and government official.
> The only thing I saw from SA as a model was the G-6.
> 
> You can claim to and have the best equipment, but if you incapable of marketing it then you have no customer.


Sometimes, the OEM must also be forthright.

In the late 1980s, the PAF was just broadly toying with the idea of a new lightweight fighter, but it never kicked-off in earnest until Chengdu and Northrop approached it with the Sabre II. Once the Sabre II collapsed and a few years passed, Chengdu again came up and showed them the Super-7. Likewise, before the PAF cemented Project Azm, it was Chengdu and Shenyang coming up with clearly articulated ideas/plans. Heck, even TAI -- when it had less than nothing -- approached the PAF about the TF-X. 
*
Basically, one must force the issue.* That's why one can respect Poland for -- despite not having as much to offer as others -- inviting PAC, HIT and POF to see what's on offer. In turn POF even spoke to Fabryka Broni about the MSBS/Grot, even though it didn't compete in the trials.

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## Thorough Pro

In the 1980's we were busy buying F-16's, when the first ones arrived? 1983?



Quwa said:


> Sometimes, the OEM must also be forthright.
> 
> In the late 1980s, the PAF was just broadly toying with the idea of a new lightweight fighter, but it never kicked-off in earnest until Chengdu and Northrop approached it with the Sabre II. Once the Sabre II collapsed and a few years passed, Chengdu again came up and showed them the Super-7. Likewise, before the PAF cemented Project Azm, it was Chengdu and Shenyang coming up with clearly articulated ideas/plans. Heck, even TAI -- when it had less than nothing -- approached the PAF about the TF-X.
> *
> Basically, one must force the issue.* That's why one can respect Poland for -- despite not having as much to offer as others -- inviting PAC, HIT and POF to see what's on offer. In turn POF even spoke to Fabryka Broni about the MSBS/Grot, even though it didn't compete in the trials.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thorough Pro said:


> In the 1980's we were busy buying F-16's, when the first ones arrived? 1983?


The work that eventually resulted in the JF-17 started in the late 1980s. The PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16s and to help replace the F-6s. It took a look at the Mirage F-1, but opted to study upgrading the Chengdu F-7P with the help of Northrop Grumman, i.e. Project Sabre II.

That program collapsed due to US sanctions on China and the PAF opted for F-7Ps instead. However, Chengdu kept working on a lightweight fighter program via a clean-sheet design, i.e. FC-1/Super-7, which it proposed to the PAF in the early 1990s.

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## denel

Oscar said:


> They were never on the map. In the 5 IDEAS exhibitions I have been to in the past 15 years, I have yet to see the roolivak or anything other than a small stand by Denel Dynamics.
> Bell, Eurocopter, Harbin and TAI have solid presence which frequents Pakistani officers and government official.
> The only thing I saw from SA as a model was the G-6.
> 
> You can claim to and have the best equipment, but if you incapable of marketing it then you have no customer.


We have some of the best equipment no need to prove it - it is out there mineproof vehicles, artillery, comms etc; our marketing is poor towards your country; i think they gave up long time ago and dont waste money to bring the big units over.


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## Thorough Pro

both F-16 and Mirage are of the same weight class, with F-16 more of a MR fighter and Mirage a better choice for ground attack. If PAF had funds and they were looking for two new platforms at the same time, then they should have gone for more F-16's because our mirage 3/5 at that time were not in bad shape. Pakistan joined JF-17 program quite late, probably in early/mid 90's. china however started their super 7 much earlier, at that time Pakistan had good relations with US and was not even in the super 7 picture.




Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The work that eventually resulted in the JF-17 started in the late 1980s. The PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16s and to help replace the F-6s. It took a look at the Mirage F-1, but opted to study upgrading the Chengdu F-7P with the help of Northrop Grumman, i.e. Project Sabre II.
> 
> That program collapsed due to US sanctions on China and the PAF opted for F-7Ps instead. However, Chengdu kept working on a lightweight fighter program via a clean-sheet design, i.e. FC-1/Super-7, which it proposed to the PAF in the early 1990s.


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## SQ8

denel said:


> We have some of the best equipment no need to prove it - it is out there mineproof vehicles, artillery, comms etc; our marketing is poor towards your country; i think they gave up long time ago and dont waste money to bring the big units over.


Equipment that is not getting money to develop, which includes the roolivak is eventually heading to obsolescence.


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## Quwa

Thorough Pro said:


> both F-16 and Mirage are of the same weight class, with F-16 more of a MR fighter and Mirage a better choice for ground attack. If PAF had funds and they were looking for two new platforms at the same time, then they should have gone for more F-16's because our mirage 3/5 at that time were not in bad shape. Pakistan joined JF-17 program quite late, probably in early/mid 90's. china however started their super 7 much earlier, at that time Pakistan had good relations with US and was not even in the super 7 picture.


The F-16A/B is heavier than the Mirage 3/5 -- i.e. MTOW of 17,000 kg vs. 14,000 kg. Through the 1970s the PAF had basically used the Mirage 3/5 as a dual air-to-air and air-to-ground fighter. The "strike role" aspect began to matter in the early 1980s via the induction of the Mirage 5PA3, i.e. Project Blue Flash, which brought the Agave radar and Exocet AShM integration (i.e. the PAF's first real stand-off weapon capability) 

However, the PAF was seeking a complementary lightweight multi-role fighter to work with the F-16 and Mirages (and basically replace the F-6s). This was Project Sabre II, which was a collaborative program between the PAF, Chengdu and Northrop Grumman to develop a turbofan variant of the F-7 with the F-20's radar and avionics.

Sabre II was a thing in the late 1980s, but it fell through when Northrop had to withdraw due to US sanctions on China. From that point on, the PAF opted for more F-7s but still kept an eye on making a fighter eventually until the early-to-mid 1990s, i.e. when Chengdu forced the issue by showing its work on the FC-1/Super-7.






https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1989/1989 - 2539.html?search=Sabre II 





https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 1745.html?search=Sabre II





https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988 - 0341.html?search=Sabre II

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## Ahmet Pasha

Sabre II design in this picture looks quite close to Grippen if this design were to be a delta it would look exactly like the Grippen.


Quwa said:


> The F-16A/B is heavier than the Mirage 3/5 -- i.e. MTOW of 17,000 kg vs. 14,000 kg. Through the 1970s the PAF had basically used the Mirage 3/5 as a dual air-to-air and air-to-ground fighter. The "strike role" aspect began to matter in the early 1980s via the induction of the Mirage 5PA3, i.e. Project Blue Flash, which brought the Agave radar and Exocet AShM integration (i.e. the PAF's first real stand-off weapon capability)
> 
> However, the PAF was seeking a complementary lightweight multi-role fighter to work with the F-16 and Mirages (and basically replace the F-6s). This was Project Sabre II, which was a collaborative program between the PAF, Chengdu and Northrop Grumman to develop a turbofan variant of the F-7 with the F-20's radar and avionics.
> 
> Sabre II was a thing in the late 1980s, but it fell through when Northrop had to withdraw due to US sanctions on China. From that point on, the PAF opted for more F-7s but still kept an eye on making a fighter eventually until the early-to-mid 1990s, i.e. when Chengdu forced the issue by showing its work on the FC-1/Super-7.
> 
> View attachment 498331
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1989/1989 - 2539.html?search=Sabre II
> 
> View attachment 498332
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 1745.html?search=Sabre II
> 
> View attachment 498333
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988 - 0341.html?search=Sabre II


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## denel

Oscar said:


> Equipment that is not getting money to develop, which includes the roolivak is eventually heading to obsolescence.


Yes that is valid point, only now there is a phased project to get them upgraded. 
Our challenge is Armscor has become politicised and most of the top capable engineers left and formed Paramount which is turning tables in terms of major exports - vehicles; they have not yet gotten into the rooivalk or equivalent. They are leading in terms of exports revenue.


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## SQ8

denel said:


> Yes that is valid point, only now there is a phased project to get them upgraded.
> Our challenge is Armscor has become politicised and most of the top capable engineers left and formed Paramount which is turning tables in terms of major exports - vehicles; they have not yet gotten into the rooivalk or equivalent. They are leading in terms of exports revenue.


At the end of the day, you can have the largest oil reserves, huge gold deposits and fertile land in SA.. or laser beam projects that are decades ahead.
But if you have willingly as a people let people like Zuma rule you and in your own words Guptas and others ruin your industry. Then regardless of developed talent over ages it will disappear and countries will not consider your goods.

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## denel

Oscar said:


> At the end of the day, you can have the largest oil reserves, huge gold deposits and fertile land in SA.. or laser beam projects that are decades ahead.
> But if you have willingly as a people let people like Zuma rule you and in your own words Guptas and others ruin your industry. Then regardless of developed talent over ages it will disappear and countries will not consider your goods.


Absolutely correct. Zuma and bastards Guptas put out country back an entire decade. Even now these bastards are trying to find ways to replace a chosen next leader in ANC. Lets see next election is a huge watershed. The problem is our people let these bastards run us and there is no checks and balances.
This is one reason I left as well. Huge talent pool is switching over to Paramount where there is no political interference and freedom to go next level.

Honestly these wrectched indians came, exploited and like theives... even thieves have some level of honour; but these guys like what we refer to in Swahili - baniyanis... that is a derogatory term. Estimates are around 6 bil $ they have looted together with Zuma's son.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> Absolutely correct. Zuma and bastards Guptas put out country back an entire decade. Even now these bastards are trying to find ways to replace a chosen next leader in ANC. Lets see next election is a huge watershed. The problem is our people let these bastards run us and there is no checks and balances.
> This is one reason I left as well. Huge talent pool is switching over to Paramount where there is no political interference and freedom to go next level.
> 
> Honestly these wrectched indians came, exploited and like theives... even thieves have some level of honour; but these guys like what we refer to in Swahili - baniyanis... that is a derogatory term. Estimates are around 6 bil $ they have looted together with Zuma's son.


What does mean that for all intents and purposes, the Roolivak never had and no longer has any prospects with Pakistan. Indians would have influenced how arms tradr happens, and their loyalty is to India.


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## denel

Oscar said:


> What does mean that for all intents and purposes, the Roolivak never had and no longer has any prospects with Pakistan. Indians would have influenced how arms tradr happens, and their loyalty is to India.


no.... They are completely out of the picture... remember they even tried to setup a body called Denel Asia. Parliament has put a complete stop.
They are persona non grata in any form. So, i am not concerned there.

Now, you do not need to think of rooivalk as gunship; remember it is sharing the platform with Oryx; it is a dual win strategy for medium lift helo - equivalent of Super Puma. This brings in capability of building transport helos internally together with all the manufacturing of all various components including engines.


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## Thorough Pro

Thanks, I didn't know that part of history.



Quwa said:


> The F-16A/B is heavier than the Mirage 3/5 -- i.e. MTOW of 17,000 kg vs. 14,000 kg. Through the 1970s the PAF had basically used the Mirage 3/5 as a dual air-to-air and air-to-ground fighter. The "strike role" aspect began to matter in the early 1980s via the induction of the Mirage 5PA3, i.e. Project Blue Flash, which brought the Agave radar and Exocet AShM integration (i.e. the PAF's first real stand-off weapon capability)
> 
> However, the PAF was seeking a complementary lightweight multi-role fighter to work with the F-16 and Mirages (and basically replace the F-6s). This was Project Sabre II, which was a collaborative program between the PAF, Chengdu and Northrop Grumman to develop a turbofan variant of the F-7 with the F-20's radar and avionics.
> 
> Sabre II was a thing in the late 1980s, but it fell through when Northrop had to withdraw due to US sanctions on China. From that point on, the PAF opted for more F-7s but still kept an eye on making a fighter eventually until the early-to-mid 1990s, i.e. when Chengdu forced the issue by showing its work on the FC-1/Super-7.
> 
> View attachment 498331
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1989/1989 - 2539.html?search=Sabre II
> 
> View attachment 498332
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 1745.html?search=Sabre II
> 
> View attachment 498333
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988 - 0341.html?search=Sabre II


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## cabatli_53

I believe Pakistan will take delivery of T-129 Atak Phase-2 (T-129B2) variant which is the most advanced configuration of Atak program. Ismail Demir, the head of defense industry, announced that Phase-2 will have following advanced features compared to B1 variant. 


Enhanced Payload
Some design changes on fuselage
Heavier Weapon/EW carriage capacity
First delivery to TLF: Mid 2019

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## Zarvan

cabatli_53 said:


> I believe Pakistan will take delivery of T-129 Atak Phase-2 (T-129B2) variant which is the most advanced configuration of Atak program. Ismail Demir, the head of defense industry, announced that Phase-2 will have following advanced features compared to B1 variant.
> 
> 
> Enhanced Payload
> Some design changes on fuselage
> Heavier Weapon/EW carriage capacity
> First delivery to TLF: Mid 2019


And when first one will come


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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> And when first one will come




According to official roadway, first helicopter was planned to roll out of the production line 3 months after signature ceremony. 1 years after deal charged, Rest will be commenced and all helicopters will be delivered within 5 years but I think delivery of helicopters will wait for T-129B2 until the June/July2019.

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## syed_yusuf

how much T129B2 differed from the existing version?

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## CAN_TR

syed_yusuf said:


> how much T129B2 differed from the existing version?



Post #2361


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## cabatli_53

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1064826083089006592

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## -------

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067333304100233216

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## Dazzler

Combat-Master said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067333304100233216



President seems desperate..


----------



## GriffinsRule

Just wanted free goodies perhaps lol


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Check out @QuwaGroup’s Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067720859366932480

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## HRK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068451989644816384

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068453904038408192

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068453906181746689

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068454400639815681


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## Muhammad Omar

HRK said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068451989644816384
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068453904038408192
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068453906181746689
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068454400639815681



Disappointing


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## Chimgathar

Wow another delay what a waste, our military planners should have foreseen this.
Thank you Uncle Sam
Any idea what will TAI do after 6 months?


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## Beast

See... I told you before. The worst is Turkey domestic turboshaft will need at least 10 years time to go into production for usage.

Trump will not go soft for Pakistan. Good Luck.

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## RangeMaster

More and more delays. Atak, JF 17-BK3....
They should've seen it thoroughly before signing the contract. First F-16 now Atak, how long this will go. PAF' top brass desperately need an investigation, check their bank accounts properties everything. They left Gripen, J-10 in early 20's. US is humiliating them at every forum, and still their love affair for American arms seems unstoppable.

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## HRK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068454406574747648

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068456641102835713


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## Beast

RangeMaster said:


> More and more delays. Atak, JF 17-BK3....
> They should've seen it thoroughly before signing the contract. First F-16 now Atak, how long this will go.


Never buy anything western or with string attached. Turkey weapon has too many western subsystem. Buying their product is suicide.

Do not be court by their sweet words of able to rid of all imported system within short time.. I can gurantee u. Go for a proven supplier like China who is able to build everything on its own.

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## Muhammad Omar

Beast said:


> See... I told you before. The worst is Turkey domestic turboshaft will need at least 10 years time to go into production for usage.
> 
> Trump will not go soft for Pakistan. Good Luck.


Pakistan should re-evaluate Z-10 ME

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## Beast

Muhammad Omar said:


> Pakistan should re-evaluate Z-10 ME


This is the golden advise for PA.

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## RangeMaster

Beast said:


> Never buy anything western or with string attached. Turkey weapon has too many western subsystem. Buying their product is suicide.
> 
> Do not be court by their sweet words of able to rid of all imported system within short time.. I can gurantee u. Go for a proven supplier like China who is able to build everything on its own.


I am sure officials at PAF know about this but their love affair with American systems seems too strong to let them use their brain while shopping.


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## Beast

RangeMaster said:


> I am sure officials at PAF know about this but their love affair with American systems seems too strong to let them use their brain while shopping.


No, they are fool by Turkish. I am sure Turkish give a lot of assurance that their pressure will make US give in which proven to be false. They also make empty promise which domestic turboshaft will be ready very soon. So far, the Turkey domestic engine is running in the lab. No where near production or usage in next 2-3 years time, the fastest. Worst, it may take 10 years. 

Sometimes, Pakistanis need to think rational and not blind by muslimhood....

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## royalharris

We should just watch the farce silently
Hard slaps are the better teacher

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## Beast

I advise PA to immediately cancel the TA-129 deal with Turkey and go for Z-10ME. Do not waste anymore time.

Do you think Trump like Pakistan? He still has 2 more years to go and worst, he gets re elected. That will be another 4 years....

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## Zulfiqar

HRK said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068451989644816384
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068453904038408192
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068453906181746689
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068454400639815681




It's time to pull off an alkhalid move on T 129.

Do an engine swap. Use z-10s engines (WZ-9s or the new ones) in T-129. Provided that the dimensions are similar for the engine and are capable enough.

T-129 has a lower overall weight which result in better PWR relative to Z-10 using same engine.


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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> I advise PA to immediately cancel the TA-129 deal with Turkey and go for Z-10ME. Do not waste anymore time.
> 
> Do you think Trump like Pakistan? He still has 2 more years to go and worst, he gets re elected. That will be another 4 years....


PA wants to maintain the relationship with the west, and isn't willing to put all eggs into one basket.

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## RangeMaster

Beast said:


> I advise PA to immediately cancel the TA-129 deal with Turkey and go for Z-10ME. Do not waste anymore time.
> 
> Do you think Trump like Pakistan? He still has 2 more years to go and worst, he gets re elected. That will be another 4 years....


Seems impossible but lets hope for a wise decision, PA needs them badly. Turkey should do something now.
30 Z-10ME+ 30 MI-35 will make a decent combination.


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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> PA wants to maintain the relationship with the west, and isn't willing to put all eggs into one basket.


But the problem is the west is not willing to maintain good r/s with Pakistan. They are hostile to Pakistan. Why seek a futile road?


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## Chimgathar

royalharris said:


> We should just watch the farce silently
> Hard slaps are the better teacher


Unfortunately that never works for Pakistan military planners/ leadership, uncle sam has arm twisted Pakistan many times in the past F-16s, financial/ military sanctions etc. And yet we had to see this day.


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## Beast

RangeMaster said:


> Seems impossible but lets hope for a wise decision, PA needs them badly. Turkey should do something now.
> 30 Z-10ME+ 30 MI-35 will make a decent combination.


Turkey cannot do anything. If Turkey are force to release US pastor without any condition. Whats make u think Turkey can do anything to US? Even TUrkey F-35 is at mercy of Trump. They couldnt even survive themselves, let alone Pakistan?

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## RangeMaster

Beast said:


> Turkey cannot do anything. If Turkey are force to release US pastor without any condition. Whats make u think Turkey can do anything to US? Even TUrkey F-35 is at mercy of Trump. They couldnt even survive themselves, let alone Pakistan?


About Atak' American components. They can't replace them?


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## Beast

RangeMaster said:


> About Atak' American components. They can't replace them?


Those are crucial components and are very difficult to replace. China spend USD24 billion to build a massive industries and metallurgy just to get a few decent turbofan ,gas turbine and turboshaft, What makes Turkey with less than a trillion economy can do it better than China?

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## CAN_TR

RangeMaster said:


> About Atak' American components. They can't replace them?



Only the Engine is American, options are French or Polish made engines.



Beast said:


> Those are crucial components and are very difficult to replace. China spend USD24 billion to build a massive industries and metallurgy just to get a few decent turbofan ,gas turbine and turboshaft, What makes Turkey with less than a trillion economy can do it better than China?



Turkey has better engineers.


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## RangeMaster

Beast said:


> Those are crucial components and are very difficult to replace. China spend USD24 billion to build a massive industries and metallurgy just to get a few decent turbofan ,gas turbine and turboshaft, What makes Turkey with less than a trillion economy can do it better than China?


I was talking about European engines, with no strings attached.
Anyway, Lets see what happens...


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## Beast

CAN_TR said:


> Only the Engine is American, options are French or Polish made engines.



LOL,, that means underpowered plus another 4-5 years of testing before accepted for use? Do you think PA can wait that long




CAN_TR said:


> Turkey has better engineers.



How? By using American turboshaft?

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## RangeMaster

CAN_TR said:


> Only the Engine is American, options are French or Polish made engines.
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey has better engineers.


Thats what I was talking about, adding European systems.


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## hussain0216

Beast said:


> LOL,, that means underpowered plus another 4-5 years of testing before accepted for use? Do you think PA can wait that long
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How? By using American turboshaft?



I think he meant Turkey has been a NATO state for decades with access to NATO standard weapons and practices

Whilst Pakistan is happy to go down china route for many weapons it also dosent want to completely cut out western weapons


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## Beast

RangeMaster said:


> I was talking about European engines, with no strings attached.
> Anyway, Lets see what happens...


That will still take another 4-5 years time to test it out. Replacing engine is no joke. All the test need to go thru again and its time consuming... There maybe a lot of other issue to sort out using another engine.



hussain0216 said:


> I think he meant Turkey has been a NATO state for decades with access to NATO standard weapons and practices
> 
> Whilst Pakistan is happy to go down china route for many weapons it also dosent want to completely cut out western weapons


They have access to only NATO practice. NATO is very pro christian. They treat muslim like outsider. I am sure Turkey didn't learn much from them. That is why they still need to use American turboshaft. Right?

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## dBSPL

There is no dependence on the subsystems in the ATAK helicopter. It's just a temporary dependence on the engine. 1400shp indigenous engine to be delivered in 2020. However, the timetable for the completion of the international certification process is 2026.

The US's problem with the LHTEC engine is directly related to Pakistan. In the long term, the US's blockade of sales to Pakistan is of benefit to China. This is proof of how the US is doing politics in the hands of novices.

In this case, the Turkey-Pakistan relations will not be damaged, but the US will have a huge strategic loss.

Turkey did not win this with deceived anyone. The helicopter was tested under the most difficult conditions and its effectiveness was proven. Now, as we read from the news, the Chinese contestant went to a new arrangement of the deficiencies found, sending a new helicopter for testing. I hope that they will meet Pakistan with an effective solution under the urgent need.

But like I said, this attitude about on US-Pakistan relations, rather than Turkey.

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## Beast

dBSPL said:


> There is no dependence on the subsystems in the ATAK helicopter. It's just a temporary dependence on the engine. 1400shp indigenous engine to be delivered in 2020. However, the timetable for the completion of the international certification process is 2026.
> 
> The US's problem with the LHTEC engine is directly related to Pakistan. In the long term, the US's blockade of sales to Pakistan is of benefit to China. This is proof of how the US is doing politics in the hands of novices.
> 
> In this case, the Turkey-Pakistan relations will not be damaged, but the US will have a huge strategic loss.
> 
> Turkey did not win this with deceived anyone. The helicopter was tested under the most difficult conditions and its effectiveness was proven. Now, as we read from the news, the Chinese contestant went to a new arrangement of the deficiencies found, sending a new helicopter for testing. I hope that they will meet Pakistan with an effective solution under the urgent need.
> 
> But like I said, this attitude about on US-Pakistan relations, rather than Turkey.



Pakistan is under the impression from Turkey, approved of turboshaft from US for PA will not be a problem - Wrong

Pakistan is under the impression Turkey can quickly replace American engine with domestic one - Wrong (earliest 2026)

I am sure Philippine Armed forces will also think twice getting TA-129. Duterte, president of Philippine is not on very good term with US.....

While its is China who prove itself. When there is the impression that RD-93 engine will be blocked by India for JF-17. China step up and promised no such problem for the project and delivered. And now we are talking about blk 3 with AESA going to serve PAF soon.... China is a big power with leverage on Russian. Russian badly need Chinese money. Turkey which the most a regional power has no such leverage on western countries and USA.

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## RangeMaster

Beast said:


> That will still take another 4-5 years time to test it out. Replacing engine is no joke. All the test need to go thru again and its time consuming... There maybe a lot of other issue to sort out using another engine.
> 
> 
> They have access to only NATO practice. NATO is very pro christian. They treat muslim like outsider. I am sure Turkey didn't learn much from them. That is why they still need to use American turboshaft. Right?


If deal strucks and it goes too far then Z-10ME and MI-35 are only options left.
Mi-35 induction started. Soon Z-10ME will be back again for PA trials after comprehensive upgradation. Lets hope for promising results.


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## CriticalThought

Beast said:


> Pakistan is under the impression from Turkey, approved of turboshaft from US for PA will not be a problem - Wrong
> 
> Pakistan is under the impression Turkey can quickly replace American engine with domestic one - Wrong (earliest 2026)
> 
> I am sure Philippine Armed forces will also think twice getting TA-129. Duterte, president of Philippine is not on very good term with US.....



Well it's a moment of shame for Pakistan as well. We have neglected our own economy, education, and industrial base for so long now, and depended completely on foreign aid to such an extent, that we are now a joke. Countries like America play with us like cat plays with mouse.

If we had our own technological base, we could help our brother countries through R&D. But today, we have nothing to offer at all.


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## dBSPL

Beast said:


> Pakistan is under the impression from Turkey, approved of turboshaft from US for PA will not be a problem - Wrong
> 
> Pakistan is under the impression Turkey can quickly replace American engine with domestic one - Wrong (earliest 2026)
> 
> I am sure Philippine Armed forces will also think twice getting TA-129. Duterte, president of Philippine is not on very good term with US.....
> 
> While its is China who prove itself. When there is the impression that RD-93 engine will be blocked by India for JF-17. China step up and promised no such problem for the project and delivered. And now we are talking about blk 3 with AESA going to serve PAF soon.... China is a big power with leverage on Russian. Russian badly need Chinese money. Turkey which the most a regional power has no such leverage on western countries and USA.


The military certification process of this engine will take place before, but if Pakistan expects all transactions to be completed, including easa standards, yes you are right, the earliest delivery date is 2026.

Turkey won with nearly 10 years by providing structural and powertrain technology transfer from AW design. During this time, however, quickly completed its shortcomings in the avionics field. From the begining , the ultimate goal is to have directly design capability.

The project, called ATAK-2 program, is the product of this purpose. T129 Atak-1 project model similar to some Russia-China cooperation in many respects.

Turkey's ATAK T129 solution for urgent needs and expectations were more than equalize the battlefield. Thanks to this variant, which has a successful system engineering, we saw the effectiveness of both Turkish subsystems and became ambitious in many tenders around world. For example, the primary variant of this helicopter, A 129, has much weaker ECM equipment and a weaker engine and transmission. In terms of avionics, completely jumped upper class(T129B2).

For us, it doesn't matter what system Pakistan will choose. The only important thing is to eliminate the urgent needs of our Pakistan.

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## royalharris

Check the decision maker＇s account

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## dBSPL

royalharris said:


> Check the decision maker＇s account


You represent the newly growing Chinese generation here quite well. Denigration,slandering, arrogance and ignorance. You're really competing with the United States. Now , i believe.

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## royalharris

Calm down
It is USA who slap your fat face

If your fat face can feel pain，you should punch back


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## dBSPL

In some little dog's dreams... but

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## HRK

Zulfiqar said:


> Use z-10s engines (WZ-9s or the new ones) in T-129.


and Why would China sale Z-10 engine instead of selling us Z-10 ... ???

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## Beast

HRK said:


> and Why would China sale Z-10 engine instead of selling us Z-10 ... ???


Precisely but most importantly. It not interchangeable... We are talking about million dollar hardware, its not toy that just plug and play.. A new engine fitted in needs redesign and plenty of testing before approved for use. And these will take another 2-3 years of intensive testing..

Why not just buy Z-10ME, you can used it immediately. Tested and combat ready.

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## Zulfiqar

HRK said:


> and Why would China sale Z-10 engine instead of selling us Z-10 ... ???



It might not. 

I wasn't that serious when I suggested that and was talking from technical point of view and not political.

I know it will take years for requalification with another engine but it is doable provided that the dimensions match. F-16 is qualified with several engines in order to diversify supply chain. It shares engine with F-15 as well.

Similarly one prototype of atlas cheetah (a mirage in essence) used Russian engine.

It can be done if the chinese allow provided that engine has similar dimensions/characteristics.

Considering that in future our political alignment will differ significantly from US. It's certainly a wise choice to diversify supply chain of core components.

Alternatively we can go fo Z-10 ME.


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## monitor

*S-400 blowback? Turkey seeks replacement for US-withheld helicopter engines in $1.5bn export deal*
Published time: 30 Nov, 2018 13:25





An LHTEC T800-4A engine (non-export CTS800-4N variant) installed on an AgustaWestland AW159 Wildcat helicopter. ©Lutz Blohm via Flickr

31
Ankara and Islamabad have agreed to seek replacement engines for 30 Turkish-made attack helicopters after the US blocked supplies. Some Turkish officials say Washington is retaliating for the purchase of Russian-made missiles.
In July, Turkey and Pakistan signedtheir biggest-ever arms deal, ending four years of negotiations. The Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is to produce 30 T129 ATAK multipurpose helicopters for the Pakistani military for $1.5 billion. The model is a derivative from the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, which integrates Turkish avionics and weapons with AgustaWestland’s airframe and has some upgrades.

The deal however hit a stumbling block after the Turkish company failed to obtain an export license from the US Department of Defense. The license is required for the US-made parts of the engines that are meant to power the aircraft. The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines are produced by a joint venture of the US-based manufacturer Honeywell and Britain’s Rolls-Royce.

_“This is not a technological or financial matter but is purely political at the moment,”_ a senior Turkish procurement official told Defense News in August, after the problem arose.

With the license problems seemingly nowhere near a resolution, Pakistan and Turkey agreed to seek a replacement variant for the engines, Turkey’s Hurriyet reported on Thursday. Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers, provided that new tests are made to confirm performance in high-altitude and bad weather conditions. The US-British engines were tested on the T129 to conform to Pakistani demands in 2016. TAI hopes it will be able to complete the contract in five years, the newspaper reported.

ALSO ON RT.COMNot good news for the dollar? Russia and Turkey ditched US currency for S-400 missile system deal
The US threw a monkey wrench into the lucrative arms deal to punish Ankara for purchasing Russian S-400 long-range air defense systems in defiance of Washington’s warnings, a senior Turkish defense official told Russia’s TASS news agency. The remarks were made during the IDEAS 2018 arms expo in Pakistan’s Karachi this week. The official said a Chinese product may be considered as a replacement too.

Ankara’s purchase of the Russian weapon system is one of many issues marring Turkey’s relations with the US. The two countries have clashed over the past several years regarding Washington’s support of Kurdish militias in Syria and Iraq and US failure to extradite a Turkish cleric accused by Ankara of orchestrating an armed coup, to name a few.

_If you like this story, share it with a friend!_




31
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## HRK

Zulfiqar said:


> Considering that in future our political alignment will differ significantly from US. It's certainly a wise choice to diversify supply chain of core components.


In case of T-129 it may happen ....

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## aziqbal

and whole point of T129 was so Turkey could sell to 3rd parties without any issues 

I guess you want predict political issues though

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Another reason to avoid the US systems in the defense field!!! Hopefully, it's an eye opener for others too!!! IMO, from the Pak perspective, Turkey's getting S-400 is more important than getting license for T-129 engines!!! With S-400 at hands, already field deployed KORAL EW systems to counter it can be further fine tuned along with putting the entire exercise on the learning curve for indigenous HISAR-U AD systems!!!! Anyway, now the efforts will be re-doubled for the already initiated indigenous chopper motors solution!!! Every _Sher_ has a _(K)hair _associated with it in this _Alem-i Hikmet_....

As for ATAK-2, TFX, AZM etc. projects, hopefully, more JVs b/w Turkey and Pak may ensue....

They have understood that the era of deceptions is getting over!!! Now, they want to put frustration, hopeless ness etc., directly from the _Kitap-i Iblis_, into the hearts of the _Ehl-i Iman,_ who needs to slay these ill feelings with _Zulfiker_....

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## -------

aziqbal said:


> and whole point of T129 was so Turkey could sell to 3rd parties without any issues
> 
> I guess you want predict political issues though



The whole point of T129 was tech transfer.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The engine can be replace it is not a big issue, we should drop another order for 30 more helicopters with Turkish Indigenous Engines


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## Beast

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The engine can be replace it is not a big issue, we should drop another order for 30 more helicopters with Turkish Indigenous Engines


That is naive. Engine indeed is a big issue. Try to chalk if off as small problem is just self denial. Dropped another 30 is shooting PA own foot more. 

Dropped TA-129 and go for more Z-10ME is the wise decision.



Combat-Master said:


> The whole point of T129 was tech transfer.


But the American is very smart. The most difficult part which is the engine is off limit for transfer...



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Another reason to avoid the US systems in the defense field!!! Hopefully, it's an eye opener for others too!!! IMO, from the Pak perspective, Turkey's getting S-400 is more important than getting license for T-129 engines!!! With S-400 at hands, already field deployed KORAL EW systems to counter it can be further fine tuned along with putting the entire exercise on the learning curve for indigenous HISAR-U AD systems!!!! Anyway, now the efforts will be re-doubled for the already initiated indigenous chopper motors solution!!! Every _Sher_ has a _(K)hair _associated with it in this _Alem-i Hikmet_....
> 
> As for ATAK-2, TFX, AZM etc. projects, hopefully, more JVs b/w Turkey and Pak may ensue....
> 
> They have understood that the era of deceptions is getting over!!! Now, they want to put frustration, hopeless ness etc., directly from the _Kitap-i Iblis_, into the hearts of the _Ehl-i Iman,_ who needs to slay these ill feelings with _Zulfiker_....


Turkey will compliance with US. Getting S-400 but loses Ta-129 export and F-35 is not worth it. The turkey has an amphibious ship build around F-35. Without F-35, the ship is 50% less capable. Turkey has many sub component build around US source. It's easy to say than done plus. Those parts are the most difficult to make and turkey is in no position to develop those things. They need more than USD20billion to develop the whole industries on propulsion system.


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## Maxpane

Wonder are planner on weeds why they go sanction prone platform?


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## Beast

Maxpane said:


> Wonder do planner are on weed why they go sanction prone platform?


I do not blame them but the Turkish. They make empty promise to Pakistanis that engine is not an issue and Indigenous engine is ready soon which prove to be false.

Turkish like to talk big but far from delivery. That is the problem when dealing military deal with them. Many of their system is overstated.

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## Maxpane

Beast said:


> I do not blame them but the Turkish. They make empty promise to Pakistanis that engine is not an issue and Indigenous engine is ready soon which prove to be false.
> 
> Turkish like to talk big but far from delivery. That is the problem when dealing military deal with them. Many of their system is overstated.


Sir they have to look at it .


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## Trango Towers

Beast said:


> I do not blame them but the Turkish. They make empty promise to Pakistanis that engine is not an issue and Indigenous engine is ready soon which prove to be false.
> 
> Turkish like to talk big but far from delivery. That is the problem when dealing military deal with them. Many of their system is overstated.


Oh dear


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## Awan68

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The engine can be replace it is not a big issue, we should drop another order for 30 more helicopters with Turkish Indigenous Engines


The only reasons we choose ataks over z 10s were the performanve of the american engines, turkish engines will not be better than chinese.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

U mean to say we bent over by our free will for the engines
Court marshal is due on someone

Makes sense 


F16 blocked
OHP blocked 
F16 blocked again
Cutters blocked
T129 Engines blocked


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## Roybot

Beast said:


> See... I told you before. The worst is Turkey domestic turboshaft will need at least 10 years time to go into production for usage.
> 
> Trump will not go soft for Pakistan. Good Luck.



Pakistan Army after thorough assessment found the Chinese Z-10 lacking and preferred the T-129 over it. If left with no other option, they will obviously go for your sub standard helicopter.

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## Chimgathar

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> U mean to say we bent over by our free will for the engines
> Court marshal is due on someone
> 
> Makes sense
> 
> 
> F16 blocked
> OHP blocked
> F16 blocked again
> Cutters blocked
> T129 Engines blocked


Some Pakistan defence companies related to development of strategic missiles were also sanctioned by US
Pakistan military officers are also blocked from attending US military institutes from this year on wards



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Another reason to avoid the US systems in the defense field!!! Hopefully, it's an eye opener for others too!!! IMO, from the Pak perspective, Turkey's getting S-400 is more important than getting license for T-129 engines!!! With S-400 at hands, already field deployed KORAL EW systems to counter it can be further fine tuned along with putting the entire exercise on the learning curve for indigenous HISAR-U AD systems!!!! Anyway, now the efforts will be re-doubled for the already initiated indigenous chopper motors solution!!! Every _Sher_ has a _(K)hair _associated with it in this _Alem-i Hikmet_....
> 
> As for ATAK-2, TFX, AZM etc. projects, hopefully, more JVs b/w Turkey and Pak may ensue....
> 
> They have understood that the era of deceptions is getting over!!! Now, they want to put frustration, hopeless ness etc., directly from the _Kitap-i Iblis_, into the hearts of the _Ehl-i Iman,_ who needs to slay these ill feelings with _Zulfiker_....


I dont think Turkish S-400 deal is related to the Atak T-129 deal. US is a racial country they arm twisted Pakistan time and again is the past. They know they have nothing to lose if they stop sale of Helo engines for Pakistan. If God forbid Turkey, Pakistan were Christian, Hindu or any non-muslim nation all US defence technology could have been OK for export to us. Atak T-129 is an important deal for Turkey and Pakistan. Pakistan needs to replace its aging attack helos and Turkey wants a partner in Atak T-129 Program.


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## Beast

Roybot said:


> Pakistan Army after thorough assessment found the Chinese Z-10 lacking and preferred the T-129 over it. If left with no other option, they will obviously go for your sub standard helicopter.


That is better than no helicopter and still better than even more sub standard LCH which IA need to procure Apache to make up the shortcoming....

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## royalharris

The T129's armor protection is very weak, just like the Japanese car, the car shell is thin, the whole machine is light weight, with an American engine, appears to be manuable.

In the battlefield，all kinds of light bullets will cause great casualties to the pilots

If you don＇t care life casualties，it seems ok

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## Roybot

Beast said:


> That is better than no helicopter and still better than even more sub standard LCH which IA need to procure Apache to make up the shortcoming....



I think I would rather believe the professional assessment of Pakistani army over some random Chinese fanboy's opinion, who are always busy flogging their sub standard weapons to captive and isolated markets.

As for India, LCH is a work in progress and in the meantime we are getting the Apaches. Not only will they form the tip of the spear, but the tech will slowly trickle down to LCH. FWIW LCH has a better, more powerful engine, compared to the rejected Z-10. 












We also happen to have these as a stop gap/multi purpose platform.

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## Beast

Roybot said:


> I think I would rather believe the professional assessment of Pakistani army over some random Chinese fanboy's opinion, who are always busy flogging their sub standard weapons to captive and isolated markets.
> 
> As for India, LCH is a work in progress and in the meantime we are getting the Apaches. Not only will they form the tip of the spear, but the tech will slowly trickle down to LCH. FWIW LCH has a better, more powerful engine, compared to the rejected Z-10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We also happen to have these as a stop gap/multi purpose platform.



I just pointed out a reality.. If LCH is so good as you claim, why buy Apache? Becos it is just another LCA epic failure project which needs the Rafale. While China still uses Z-10, there shows the confidence we have with our product. We could have go for Ka-52, Mi-28 but no.... 

You can say 1000 excuses but will not mask the reality why Apache needs to be brought in for the failure with LCH.

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## Roybot

Beast said:


> I just pointed out a reality.. If LCH is so good as you claim, why buy Apache? Becos it is just another LCA epic failure project which needs the Rafale. While China still uses Z-10, there shows the confidence we have with our product. We could have go for Ka-52, Mi-28 but no....
> 
> You can say 1000 excuses but will not mask the reality why Apache needs to be brought in for the failure with LCH.



Because LCH is in a different weight category, same reason china operates both Z-10 and Z-19. It doesn't mean Z-10 is sub standard(which it is mind you when compared to other non-chinese helicopters) 

Anyways let's not digress. Point was that, as per Pakistan Army's assessment Chinese Z-10 is inferior to the Turkish T-129.

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## Beast

Roybot said:


> Because LCH is in a different weight category, same reason china operates both Z-10 and Z-19. It doesn't mean Z-10 is sub standard(which it is mind you when compared to other non-chinese helicopters)
> 
> Anyways let's not digress. Point was that, as per Pakistan Army's assessment Chinese Z-10 is inferior to the Turkish T-129.


The only part TA-129 is better than Z-10 is using an American engine... Other than that, there is no better. But it will be remedy by the upgraded Z-10ME.

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## Chimgathar

Beast said:


> The only part TA-129 is better than Z-10 is using an American engine... Other than that, there is no better. But it will be remedy by the upgraded Z-10ME.


Atak T-129 is an advanced version of Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, it can fire Hellfire missiles, BGm71 TOW missiles, Rocketsan Cirit rockets, AIM 92 Stingers, or AIM 9 Sidewinder missiles (now would you say all these listed munitions are inferior to Chinese counterparts?). Atak T-129 is superior and more advanced then Z-10 in every imaginable aspect possible besides the engine. Plus Atak T-129 is also battle proven, Italy and Turkey have regularly used the helo in the frontline assisting their troops. Also PA selected Atak T-129 over Z-10. 
I am not saying Z-10 is a bad helo but its one of first Atack helo Programs by PLA and it will take time to mature.


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## Beast

Chimgathar said:


> Atak T-129 is an advanced version of Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, it can fire Hellfire missiles, BGm71 TOW missiles, Rocketsan Cirit rockets, AIM 92 Stingers, or AIM 9 Sidewinder missiles (now would you say all these listed munitions are inferior to Chinese counterparts?). Atak T-129 is superior and more advanced then Z-10 in every imaginable aspect possible besides the engine. Plus Atak T-129 is also battle proven, Italy and Turkey have regularly used the helo in the frontline assisting their troops. Also PA selected Atak T-129 over Z-10.
> I am not saying Z-10 is a bad helo but its one of first Atack helo Programs by PLA and it will take time to mature.


You think Z-10 don those kind of missile? What you mention are not something new... We have the Chinese equivalent for Z-10. You know very little of Z-10, i advise you from commenting refrain from one side comment regard to T-129 vs Z-10ME. The only reason PA select T-129 is becos of the more powerful engine but extract that out.. It will be nothing. Its no point going for T-129. Engine is american, domestic version is no where near delivered.

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## GriffinsRule

As has been mentioned many times over, once the Turkish-US spat is over, we will get the T-129. A six month or even a year's delay is nothing given that we just signed the deal a few months ago. 

So I think we can stop with the panic mode for now and just wait and see how thing develop. Turkey might very well give up on the S-400 in 6 months, you never know what might happen with the political climate.

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## Foxtrot Delta

GriffinsRule said:


> As has been mentioned many times over, once the Turkish-US spat is over, we will get the T-129. A six month or even a year's delay is nothing given that we just signed the deal a few months ago.
> 
> So I think we can stop with the panic mode for now and just wait and see how thing develop. Turkey might very well give up on the S-400 in 6 months, you never know what might happen with the political climate.



What i fear is turkey might even loose f-35s things look bad cuz of trump.


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## Trango Towers

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> U mean to say we bent over by our free will for the engines
> Court marshal is due on someone
> 
> Makes sense
> 
> 
> F16 blocked
> OHP blocked
> F16 blocked again
> Cutters blocked
> T129 Engines blocked


Whats worse is with all the american bullshit they havent been told in the media how blocking suxh things effects our war efforts. Politicians and military are weak in this respect


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## cabatli_53

Beast said:


> I do not blame them but the Turkish. They make empty promise to Pakistanis that engine is not an issue and Indigenous engine is ready soon which prove to be false.
> 
> Turkish like to talk big but far from delivery. That is the problem when dealing military deal with them. Many of their system is overstated.



Dude, I am really tired of your big head delusional statements in Turkey related threads. Turkey doesn’t talk big but acting smart in technological matters. The painful reality that you can not accept, is a Muslim country called Turkey with 80 million population develop state of art competitive technological systems which is proven superior on many field (after harsh environmental trials) against the products developed by a country with 1,4 billion polulation. Instead of finding excuses to attack Turks and Turkish products at every likely scenarios, check your inferior and cheap systems to improve their capability. Self-criticizm is a nice behavior to improve your skills instead of attacking your rivals. You are good at isolated markets but Noone in Pakistan obliged to purchase less capable products so do not play smart with your big head as if you know something that Pakistan and Turkish officials do not know.

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## -------

Beast said:


> You think Z-10 don those kind of missile? What you mention are not something new... We have the Chinese equivalent for Z-10. You know very little of Z-10, i advise you from commenting refrain from one side comment regard to T-129 vs Z-10ME. The only reason PA select T-129 is becos of the more powerful engine but extract that out.. It will be nothing. Its no point going for T-129. Engine is american, domestic version is no where near delivered.



I'm sorry to bruise your over inflated pride, but, T-129 has one thing and perhaps the most important, it's *battle proven* with scores of terrorists neutralised by it in a high threat MANPAD infested environments. Battle proof your Z-10ME then come to the big boys table.

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## CriticalThought

cabatli_53 said:


> Dude, I am really tired of your big head delusional statements in Turkey related threads. Turkey doesn’t talk big but acting smart in technological matters. The painful reality that you can not accept, is a Muslim country called Turkey with 80 million population develop state of art competitive technological systems which is proven superior on many field (after harsh environmental trials) against the products developed by a country with 1,4 billion polulation. Instead of finding escuse to attack Turks and Turkish products at every likely scenarios, check your inferior and cheap systems to improve their capability. You are good at isolated markets but Noone in Pakistan obliged to purchase your less capable products so do not play smart with your big head as if you, delusional fanboys, know something that Pakistan and Turkish officials do not know. Just care your own business.



@Beast 

Gentlemen. I think this is a moment when we should realize the common enemy and form a confluence of interests. Take a lesson from Western nations. No matter their differences, they will unite in arms against a common enemy. It would be good if we can find a cooperative solution in this discussion. No need to increase animosity.

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## CHI RULES

snow lake said:


> Whats worse is with all the american bullshit they havent been told in the media how blocking suxh things effects our war efforts. Politicians and military are weak in this respect


In tech still USA is leading the world, even EU countries. In current scenario once we get JF17 block 3 with superior gadgets USA shall be ready to offer upgrades for F16s if Pak can afford them with full payment through own sources. Previously release of OHPs were conditioned with release of Dr Afridi, so deal can be made if Pak interested, however they shall require major overhaul.The single OHP, Pak so far has not got any major overhaul and is mostly a sitting duck without any SAM coverage. Every nation which provides you discounted/ credit based supplies shall have major leverage whether it's USA or China.


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## cabatli_53

T-129 is a battle proven in Syria and Iraqi operations. Helicopter received many bullets in total but achieved mission succesfully. Hundreds of terrorists have been neutralized by T-129. We lost just one helicopter in Syria cause of engine failure.

That is the video taken by terrorist camera and shared by YPG press. Atak helicopters achieved their missions while bullets were raining. That is about trust of Turkish pilots to own machine.

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## Trango Towers

CHI RULES said:


> In tech still USA is leading the world, even EU countries. In current scenario once we get JF17 block 3 with superior gadgets USA shall be ready to offer upgrades for F16s if Pak can afford them with full payment through own sources. Previously release of OHPs were conditioned with release of Dr Afridi, so deal can be made if Pak interested, however they shall require major overhaul.The single OHP, Pak so far has not got any major overhaul and is mostly a sitting duck without any SAM coverage. Every nation which provides you discounted/ credit based supplies shall have major leverage whether it's USA or China.



problem is we donts who dont understand that we hold they key to Afghanistan. we can make their life hell and should be doing it. charge for every bullet. then they will play ball. those of us that grew up in the west competed in the west understand the west know they only understand the language of strength. there are no friends. its all about money

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## dBSPL

Personally, the Z-10 is a helicopter that I like very much. If the narrow silhouette and the promised maneuverability can be combined with high-level ECM systems, the benefit will be a highly successful attack helicopter in terms of cost.

As far as I know, the infrastructure of the Z-10 system goes back to the early 90s. The program was officially launched in 1998. The helicopter made its first flight in 2002 or 2003. The introduction to service and the low-intensity production phase is 2012 I guess. In other words, there is a 20-year study.

On the basis of the year of service, 2012, which foreign military tender did it successfully complete? Which tender has it won? How many countries are currently engaged in purchase negotiations? My last and most important question is, which helicopter was actively used in war or military operation? Software testing and soaped engineering analyzes may not always work under real conditions(May be this is why CAIC send new configuration to Pakistan). For this reason, while the Z-10 is a great engineering work but also must be a combat-proven platform to strengthen its international competitiveness.

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## CHI RULES

It's funny to read foolish comments by senior members of our two allied Countries as one calling other's products inferior. The fact is Turkish and Chinese both have capable R & D facilities along with required manpower. If on one hand China has edge in manufacturing engines, finished products so do Turkey in collaborations with USA/EU so they have absorbed these superior techs and know further developing them. As per T129 and Z10ME both on surface are comparable in most aspects. The word battle proven is tricky thing. The previous version of Z10 was used in FATA area of Pak against terrorists so considering Z10Me is next version it should have better qualities than previous version.
As per T129 selection at time of selection the T129 was perhaps found to be as per requirements of PA so chosen, no big issue. Further even if Turkey gets any embargo from USA they have other options for engines Pak will get their required numbers. If one wants to prove the superiority of their development should prove it with facts.


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## Beast

cabatli_53 said:


> Dude, I am really tired of your big head delusional statements in Turkey related threads. Turkey doesn’t talk big but acting smart in technological matters. The painful reality that you can not accept, is a Muslim country called Turkey with 80 million population develop state of art competitive technological systems which is proven superior on many field (after harsh environmental trials) against the products developed by a country with 1,4 billion polulation. Instead of finding excuses to attack Turks and Turkish products at every likely scenarios, check your inferior and cheap systems to improve their capability. Self-criticizm is a nice behavior to improve your skills instead of attacking your rivals. You are good at isolated markets but Noone in Pakistan obliged to purchase less capable products so do not play smart with your big head as if you know something that Pakistan and Turkish officials do not know.


Finally you speak, I am all the while waiting for you to reply. The big head, egotistic and over promise all exposed are all the trait of Turkish characteristic. Before you say I accused you Turkish, let me show you a thread.

Pentagon Moves Closer To Cutting Turkey's Role In The F-35 Program If It Buys S-400 SAMs

Look at all the chest thumping bravado reply of the turkish members, bragging about how they going to defy US and gets S-400? Didnt the same Turkish who ate humble pie earlier when the same Turkish release the US pastor without condition after bragging how they going to defy US threat?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-frees-pastor-andrew-brunson.581523/#post-10858452

Turkish new amphibious ship is even build around F-35, without F-35. The ship will loses half its capabilities and not to mention billion of dollars already sink in.....

I hope Pakistanis can see clearly you are dealing with a group of people who talk big but deliver little. The poeple who let nationalistic rule over their head over reality. There is one Pakistanis member even asking about why top planner for procurement of gunship for PA never think of the possible scenario that T-129 gunship will suffer sanction by US due to the US engine. Then you need to think deep, its all due to Turkish side who overpromise of their capabilities and leverage for US engine for T-129. They act irrationally, completely overestimate their zero leverage on any matters regards to American foreign policy and military procurement and result the delay and disaster of the breakdown of PA gunship deal. 

Unlike China for JF-17 cooperation. Has China ever disappointed to Pakistanis side for this project? We are now even going into blk 3 of AESA in 2021 when the past threat of India sanction of RD-93 engine re export from Russia. China made the promise of no sanction possible from Russia and delivered as stated. Chinese do things based on possible reality , within capabilities and never overpromised like some particular country....



CriticalThought said:


> @Beast
> 
> Gentlemen. I think this is a moment when we should realize the common enemy and form a confluence of interests. Take a lesson from Western nations. No matter their differences, they will unite in arms against a common enemy. It would be good if we can find a cooperative solution in this discussion. No need to increase animosity.



Pakistan and China has common enemy but Turkey is not able to freed themselves from US clutches. Turkey as part of NATO walks a different path from us. Pakistan trying to depend on Turkey is a recipe waiting for disaster as prove in this T-129 gunship deal.

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## CriticalThought

Beast said:


> Pakistan and China has common enemy but Turkey is not able to freed themselves from US clutches. Turkey as part of NATO walks a different path from us. Pakistan trying to depend on Turkey is a recipe waiting for disaster as prove in this T-129 gunship deal.



Success in an increasingly multi-polar lies in multilateral ties. The more countries come within the sphere of influence of China-Pak-Russia partnership, the more it benefits us. But people will not gravitate towards us through animosity. This is a moment of setback for the Turks. This is the time to offer help, instead of mocking them. That's how people come closer to you.


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## Beast

CriticalThought said:


> Success in an increasingly multi-polar lies in multilateral ties. The more countries come within the sphere of influence of China-Pak-Russia partnership, the more it benefits us. But people will not gravitate towards us through animosity. This is a moment of setback for the Turks. This is the time to offer help, instead of mocking them. That's how people come closer to you.



They need to get back reality for their level of influence and leverage and not acting like a bighead, chest thumping bragging that show their irrational decision which cost allies like Pakistan.

Pakistan also need to lookout for your own interest. You cant blindly buy their string attached products that will affect your foreign policy(like submitting to US bully) and defence interest.

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## CHACHA"G"

one word will explain all …………*" hoor chopu"* …………….. 
People did not understand can ask any Pakistani to translate


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## CriticalThought

Beast said:


> They need to get back reality for their level of influence and leverage and not acting like a bighead, chest thumping bragging that show their irrational decision which cost allies like Pakistan.



We are all humans. Everybody makes strategic mistakes. I am sure the Turkish planners will take this into account for all future projects.


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## cabatli_53

Beast said:


> They need to get back reality for their level of influence and leverage and not acting like a bighead, chest thumping bragging that show their irrational decision which cost allies like Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan also need to lookout for your own interest. You cant blindly buy their string attached products that will affect your foreign policy(like submitting to US bully) and defence interest.




Your problem is about Respect issue. you do not respect anybody out of your interest. You do even accuse Pakistan when they selected any products out of Chinese origin. You have just one main agenda. It is solely your own interest in acc to your big ego. You want all to bless China to boost your “superior” ego but In reality, you are not superior, not even close. To hide your defficiency, you just try to find excuses to attack anybody who joins into a fair competition. Just go your own way and learn some respect manner instead of spreading misinformation 24/7 for Turks and Turkish products. You are a good example for delusional, ingorant and bighead fanboys.

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## Beast

cabatli_53 said:


> Your problem is about Respect issue. you do not respect anybody out of your interest. You do even accuse Pakistan when they selected any products out of Chinese origin. You have just one main agenda. It is solely your own interest in acc to your big ego. You want all to bless China to boost your “superior” ego but In reality, you are not superior, not even close. To hide your defficiency, you just try to find excuses to attack anybody who joins into a fair competition. Just go your own way and learn some respect manner instead of spreading misinformation 24/7 for Turks and Turkish products. You are a good example for delusional, ingorant and bighead fanboys.


Take a mirror and look at yourselves, as if you have respect for Chinese. I am sick of Turkish bragging and overpromise and smearing of others. Is the accusation of Turkish overestimation of their influence a lie?

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...lease-pastor-andrew-brunson-erdogan-says.html

*Turkey Won't Grant 'Unlawful Requests' to Release Pastor Andrew Brunson, Erdogan says*

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45841276

*Andrew Brunson: Turkey releases US pastor after two years*


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ns-deal-with-turkey-over-pastor-idUSKCN1MP1P9

*Trump reiterates: No sanctions deal with Turkey over pastor*

I am just kind to remind Pakistanis , the limit of their Turkish brother who always brag and overestimate their power. Thinking they can overwrite US influence or even make US kneel. In fact, it is the other way round. Getting Turkish products means tie to US influence. Did I say anything wrong? All the link and facts I proved is make up or fake news? Can Turkey rid of critical US subsystem now or near future? Feel free to correct me?

I am always talk rational and based on national strength ,rather than nationalistic chest thumping like some particular nation which hold no substance but empty talk.

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## Ali_Baba

It does beg the question of whether or not the use of "american engines" for the TF-X prototype is correct or now? Turkey should revisit that decision, otherwise the TFX programme itself could become stalled if the americans withdraw approval for anything. All the more, given the tensions over the S400 series of jets.


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## cabatli_53

Beast said:


> I am just kind to remind Pakistanis , the limit of their Turkish brother who always brag and overestimate their power. Thinking they can overwrite US influence or even make US kneel. In fact, it is the other way round. Getting Turkish products means tie to US influence. Did I say anything wrong? All the link and facts I proved is make up or fake news? Can Turkey rid of critical US subsystem now or near future? Feel free to correct me?



Whenever I visit Pakistani threads related with Turkish/Pakistani cooperation, I see you telling your pain about How bad Turkish products are and Why Pakistan shouldn’t buy anything from Turkey, as if you are a propaganda minister. Many Pakistani members including me warned you not to perform such childless things but You keep trolling over and over around similar subjects. It seems you charged yourself to tell “bad Turkish things” from the mouth of a delusional Chinese fanboy and want them to believe on what you are babbling about? Regarding Atak program, There is just one thing that is needed to take permission from US and It is LHTEC engine. This issue was known at the beggining of the contract negotiations and the roadway was discussed between Pakistani and Turkish counterparts but It seems you suppose yourself somebody who is more clever than all and so want to tell “truths” about Pakistani procurement projects others don’t know while accusing all sides who doesn’t favor your products even if they perform inferior performance to rivals. You are such an ignorant boy who doesn’t aware of what situation you are being falled but It is the actual reason the people like you are called as ignorant. Anyway, Keep repeating same things again and again, While Turk and Pakistani counterparts are preparing to ink more strategic cooperations for mid future. The fanboys like you will cry longer in those pages. You will withness more cooperation news so just keep following us.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

cabatli_53 said:


> Whenever I visit Pakistani threads related with Turkish/Pakistani cooperation, I see you telling your pain about How bad Turkish products are and Why Pakistan shouldn’t buy anything from Turkey, as if you are a propaganda minister. Many Pakistani members including me warned you not to perform such childless things but You keep trolling over and over around similar subjects. It seems you charged yourself to tell “bad Turkish things” from the mouth of a delusional Chinese fanboy and want them to believe on what you are babbling about? Regarding Atak program, There is just one thing that is needed to take permission from US and It is LHTEC engine. This issue was known at the beggining of the contract negotiations and the roadway was discussed between Pakistani and Turkish counterparts but It seems you suppose yourself somebody who is more clever than all and so want to tell “truths” about Pakistani procurement projects others don’t know while accusing all sides who doesn’t favor your products even if they perform inferior performance to rivals. You are such an ignorant boy who doesn’t aware of what situation you are being falled but It is the actual reason the people like you are called as ignorant. Anyway, Keep repeating same things again and again, While Turk and Pakistani counterparts are preparing to ink more strategic cooperations for mid future. The fanboys like you will cry longer in those pages. You will withness more cooperation news so just keep following us.


More power to PakTurk relations...

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## Beast

cabatli_53 said:


> Whenever I visit Pakistani threads related with Turkish/Pakistani cooperation, I see you telling your pain about How bad Turkish products are and Why Pakistan shouldn’t buy anything from Turkey, as if you are a propaganda minister. Many Pakistani members including me warned you not to perform such childless things but You keep trolling over and over around similar subjects. It seems you charged yourself to tell “bad Turkish things” from the mouth of a delusional Chinese fanboy and want them to believe on what you are babbling about? Regarding Atak program, There is just one thing that is needed to take permission from US and It is LHTEC engine. This issue was known at the beggining of the contract negotiations and the roadway was discussed between Pakistani and Turkish counterparts but It seems you suppose yourself somebody who is more clever than all and so want to tell “truths” about Pakistani procurement projects others don’t know while accusing all sides who doesn’t favor your products even if they perform inferior performance to rivals. You are such an ignorant boy who doesn’t aware of what situation you are being falled but It is the actual reason the people like you are called as ignorant. Anyway, Keep repeating same things again and again, While Turk and Pakistani counterparts are preparing to ink more strategic cooperations for mid future. The fanboys like you will cry longer in those pages. You will withness more cooperation news so just keep following us.


LOL.. The ignorant is you. You think after this saga, pakistan will get more Turkey product? They do not want history to repeat again. May I know your TFX used what engine? And can you give an definite answer when domestic engine will be ready? See who is the delusion.. Why are you avoiding my enquiry? Is my accusation of Turkey submitting to US pressure a lie? Saudi killed at will on Turkey soil , zero repercussion. Same as US pastor release without Gulen send back to Turkey. Why are you avoiding all these issue? Getting Turkey product is as good as tie to American bully... The only childish is one in delusion and still try chest thumping. Supapower Turkey. See how the Turkish member react in thread about S-400 purchase talk about how Turkey is going to resist US pressure is a joke and see who is the bravado.  I am a very practical person not like some chest thumping nationalistic big mouth.



Ali_Baba said:


> It does beg the question of whether or not the use of "american engines" for the TF-X prototype is correct or now? Turkey should revisit that decision, otherwise the TFX programme itself could become stalled if the americans withdraw approval for anything. All the more, given the tensions over the S400 series of jets.


This is a good question but I am sure Turkish member will brush aside and claim how to they going to make US kneel and how within 1 year they are going to chulk out a similar working turbofan in their delusion dream.. 

Look at the coward who give me a negative point for saying the truth. Is my accusation all false?

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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> LOL.. The ignorant is you. You think after this saga, pakistan will get more Turkey product? They do not want history to repeat again. May I know your TFX used what engine? And can you give an definite answer when domestic engine will be ready? See who is the delusion.. Why are you avoiding my enquiry? Is my accusation of Turkey submitting to US pressure a lie? Saudi killed at will on Turkey soil , zero repercussion. Same as US pastor release without Gulen send back to Turkey. Why are you avoiding all these issue? Getting Turkey product is as good as tie to American bully... The only childish is one in delusion and still try chest thumping. Supapower Turkey. See how the Turkish member react in thread about S-400 purchase talk about how Turkey is going to resist US pressure is a joke and see who is the bravado.  I am a very practical person not like some chest thumping nationalistic big mouth.
> 
> 
> This is a good question but I am sure Turkish member will brush aside and claim how to they going to make US kneel and how within 1 year they are going to chulk out a similar working turbofan in their delusion dream..
> 
> Look at the coward who give me a negative point for saying the truth. Is my accusation all false?


"When the tide goes out, you get to see who's swimming naked."

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## The Eagle

Keep the thread clean. Pakistan buys defence products as per needs, available options in range and keeps ties in good terms with our friends/brothers. It would be appreciated to not to use this area for point scoring. 

Regards,

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## Muhammad Omar

*Turkey needs to find a new engine for Pakistan’s T129 order*

Pakistan’s bid to buy the T129 attack helicopter from Turkey has run into a roadblock after the U.S. government refused to grant an export license for the rotorcraft’s LHTEC T800 turboshaft engine.





Turkey will now have to source for another engine and conduct flight trials before it can deliver 30 T129s to Pakistan.

Hurriyet says Turkey could source the engine either from France or Poland


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## khanasifm

https://www.sae.org/news/2018/07/poland’s-pgz-to-collaborate-on-new-leonardo-attack-helicopter


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## -------

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068955867876392960
Pakistani T129 BlkI being assembled - June 2018

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## cabatli_53

Muhammad Omar said:


> *Turkey needs to find a new engine for Pakistan’s T129 order*
> 
> Pakistan’s bid to buy the T129 attack helicopter from Turkey has run into a roadblock after the U.S. government refused to grant an export license for the rotorcraft’s LHTEC T800 turboshaft engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey will now have to source for another engine and conduct flight trials before it can deliver 30 T129s to Pakistan.
> 
> Hurriyet says Turkey could source the engine either from France or Poland



Do not believe on anything unofficial. There is not a single official mouth expressing such a statement for so called refusal of US engine. All those gossips were revealed by a Russian source with naming an unknown SSB official. A few days ago, TAI expressed that first Pakistani Atak fuselage is in production line and It will be delivered in accordance with project schedule.

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## BATMAN

Quality of Turkish defense products and other technological products they produce is better then China, and i'm telling this because i'm a technical person and i have seen Chinese technological products, worked with China engineers and also with Turkish technological products and Turkish engineers and technical staff.



Muhammad Omar said:


> U.S. government refused to grant an export license for the rotorcraft’s LHTEC T800 turboshaft engine.



US govt. is openly showing animosity towards Pakistan. Pakistan need to move beyond the words and block all Indian and US transit through Pakistan and for once act in interest of Pakistan.
Americans should be banned in Pakistan as next step.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

BATMAN said:


> US govt. is openly showing animosity towards Pakistan. Pakistan need to move beyond the words and block all Indian and US transit through Pakistan and for once act in interest of Pakistan.
> Americans should be banned in Pakistan as next step.



Have you lost it? What you proposing would lead Pakistan to Stone Age. The threat given by J.W. Bush Jr. would be fulfilled by this Idiot Hollywood retard. 

You are trying to be a loyal Pakistani but in reality playing in the US hands. Over the years international events have taken place which were never brought to light by our puppet politicians and media where the Axes of Evil countries were named the list had Pakistan as the top most priority as it is the Only Muslim Nuclear Power hence they tried various things to prove Pakistan is a failed state. When they could not then they decided to make Pakistan a rogue state which was the very reason ISI was being blamed as they were trying their level best to counter. Finally they decided if Pakistan Army does once again take control by declaring Martial Law they would call Pakistan an Army State. An army state is prohibited under the UN and it is the responsibility of every member state to make sure a military state never comes into existence otherwise USE OF FORCE IS PERMITTED.

If it is true what you claim to be then you know what to do.


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## Beast

BATMAN said:


> Quality of Turkish defense products and other technological products they produce is better then China, and i'm telling this because i'm a technical person and i have seen Chinese technological products, worked with China engineers and also with Turkish technological products and Turkish engineers and technical staff.
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> What you have seen of Chinese weapon are all export version. JF-17, SH-15,VT-4,F-22P.... They are build according to customer budget.
> 
> Have you really seen J-20, J-10C ,Y-20, Type -99A tank. Trying to compare export version is not a very far comparison.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan-Turkey can , do a joint venture on a Helicopter Engine
I personally would prefer , we get our own Engine for Helicopter and this could be a golden chance to discuss about *Pakistan-Turkish* Helicopter Joint Project

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## Imran Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan-Turkey can , do a joint venture on a Helicopter Engine
> I personally would prefer , we get our own Engine for Helicopter and this could be a golden chance to discuss about *Pakistan-Turkish* Helicopter Joint Project


it will take next 10-15 years forget case closed we have only russian and chines options left

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Turkish Helicopter research is already in advance stages

Ideal Time for Pakistan to Sign MOU for Joining few selected projects

*TEI, TURKEY 
TS1400*

Unlike Pakistan who wasted funds on buying Turkey invested the money into developing their Human Resources and workforce to make their own stuff​

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## Path-Finder

What other options are there if there is an embargo?


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## Beast

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Turkish Helicopter research is already in advance stages
> 
> Ideal Time for Pakistan to Sign MOU for Joining few selected projects
> 
> 
> *TS1400*​


Far from advance stage, advance stage means tested in helo itself and not staying in lab testing... It everything goes smoothly, it will still take a 4-5 years before enter production.. As I say , IF... Most scenario will include debug, hiccups or worst, redesign. That may take total 10 years to get into service.



Path-Finder said:


> What other options are there if there is an embargo?


Z-10ME or Mi-28 Havoc.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Z-10 And Z-19 would be welcomed addition to Pakistan Aviation Unit
There is plenty of room for such items

But cooperation with Turkey is also a great plus for Pakistan
Pakistan has always maintained multiple options for Fighter Jets /Tanks and all key items

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## royalharris

just leave it

it is pakistani choice which platform they will choose，even it is waste of money、time and soldier life

Too much good willness can not bring good result

For us，we just make good of our resourse

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## mustafa erkan

Dont make panic. This is the way USA always do the business. Just show the alternative way and they will sell the engine.
Do they want to sell of T129 with another engine to Pakistan and to Phlipphinnes? And other exports will follow.They will lost money also wont have control over engine and over maintenance .This is what they never want. Stay relax and left it to Turks. Pakistan did the right and now Turkey will say to USA, we will sell with your engine or without, you choose.

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## Khagan1923

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069226968191811586

There is no delay, like I said in the Turkish section Russian fakemedia ones again was pulling shit out of its own ***. No TAI official would go to any foreign media to talk about exports.

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## Zulfiqar

Khagan1923 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069226968191811586
> 
> There is no delay, like I said in the Turkish section Russian fakemedia ones again was pulling shit out of its own ***. No TAI official would go to any foreign media to talk about exports.



Can you translate the tweets?


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## dBSPL

Zulfiqar said:


> Can you translate the tweets?


Yusuf Akbaba is a journalist who can get opinions from many officials of the SSB. According to quoted there are no delays in the attack helicopters to be exported to Pakistan. Rather, they're ahead of the calendar. (Two Pakistani helicopter's structural hardware are finished in production line.) So here's a psy-op.

As per the principles of the Presidency of Defence Industry, no SSB personal shall speak to the competent foreign press on such matters. The anonymous news from the Russian media is absolutely unreal.

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## GriffinsRule

Good way for Russians to get Pakistan to buy more Hinds lol

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## cabatli_53

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069569240875900928
TAI states that the revealed news about Pakistani Ataks are fake.

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## Dazzler

cabatli_53 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069569240875900928
> TAI states that the revealed news about Pakistani Ataks are fake.



Please elaborate.

Tamer Özmen, Head of Corporate Marketing and Communication, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TUSAŞ) made a presentation about the works carried out by TUSAŞ and information on current projects.

Atak helicopter project in the evaluation of the Özmen, the most efficient attack helicopter in its class Atak 's said that the production of successful. Ozmen, helicopters of the Land Forces Command and Gendarmerie under the command of the General Command said successfully.

Finally, reminiscent of the export of Atak helicopter to Pakistan, Özmen said, "There are several rumors about the postponement of deliveries to Pakistan due to the export license issue. "We have an ongoing process for export legislation. It is a normal procedure. We applied for an export license and we think we will get it soon." said.

A contract was signed between TAI and Pakistan Defense Production Ministry to sell 30 Atak helicopters in July. In addition to this sales, TAI has assumed a wide responsibility in terms of logistics, spare parts, training and ammunition.

The largest defense industry exports to the date of this contract at once Republic of Turkey has been carried out.

Correspondent: 


https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/turkiye/atak-helikopteri-pakistan-yolunda/1328304

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Dazzler said:


> "There are several rumors about the postponement of deliveries to Pakistan due to the export license issue. "We have an ongoing process for export legislation. It is a normal procedure. We applied for an export license and we think we will get it soon."


Possible leverage to get US approvals
https://www.dawn.com/news/1449174/letter-to-pm-trump-acknowledges-afghan-war-cost-both-usa-pakistan


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## Dazzler

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Possible leverage to get US approvals
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1449174/letter-to-pm-trump-acknowledges-afghan-war-cost-both-usa-pakistan



Trump the manchild keeps toying around. Nobody in the world takes him seriously. it was always going to happen and the situation will only get better for Pakistan.

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## Path-Finder

I don't know where I read this but the engine used in T129 is a civilian engine and not a military engine thus there is NO need for any export license on the civilian version of the engine?

Not sure if its true.


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## Beast

Path-Finder said:


> I don't know where I read this but the engine used in T129 is a civilian engine and not a military engine thus there is NO need for any export license on the civilian version of the engine?
> 
> Not sure if its true.


Nonsense... There is not such thing called civilian engine put on military hardware. It will automatically fall under military registration.


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## MMM-E

Imran Khan said:


> it will take next 10-15 years forget case closed we have only russian and chines options left



It will take next 5 -7 years , not 10-15 years ,,,,,Turkey's TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine will be in service in the next 5 years

also Electronics , electronic warfare system , weapon systems , fire control Radar , rotor technology , etc all will be Turkish

so Pakistan can join to Turkish ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter , T-625 6ton class Utility Helicopter and TAI's 10 Ton class Utility Helicopter projects to create its own Helicopter technology in 7 years ( then Turkey and Pakistan will join to big club as like The US,The UK,France,Russia and China )

or only Turkey will join to big club as like The US,The UK,France,Russia and China 
and Pakistan will continue to buy Helicopters from the US and others

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## Imran Khan

MMM-E said:


> It will take next 5 -7 years , not 10-15 years ,,,,,Turkey's TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine will be in service in the next 5 years
> 
> also Electronics , electronic warfare system , weapon systems , fire control Radar , rotor technology , etc all will be Turkish
> 
> so Pakistan can join to Turkish ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter , T-625 6ton class Utility Helicopter and TAI's 10 Ton class Utility Helicopter projects to create its own Helicopter technology in 7 years ( then Turkey and Pakistan will join to big club as like The US,The UK,France,Russia and China )
> 
> or only Turkey will join to big club as like The US,The UK,France,Russia and China
> and Pakistan will continue to buy Helicopters from the US and others


but our cobras cant wait 5 to 7 yearssir


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## MMM-E

Imran Khan said:


> our cobras cant wait 5 to 7 yearssir



Our Cobras waited for 10 years and still in service and will remain in the next 5 years

The US sold AH-64 Apaches to Greece , but not to Turkey
even Turkey begged to the US for many years to buy 3 of second hand AH-1W Super Cobra Attack Helicopters ( $110 million ) to fight against Pkk terrorism

now Turkey produce 3 T-129 Attack Helicopters in 2 months and soon Engine also will be Turkish

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## Imran Khan

MMM-E said:


> Our Cobras waited for 10 years and still in service and will remain in the next 5 years
> 
> The US sold AH-64 Apaches to Greece , but not to Turkey
> even Turkey begged to the US for many years to buy 3 of second hand AH-1W Super Cobra Attack Helicopters ( $110 million ) to fight against Pkk terrorism
> 
> now Turkey produce 3 T-129 Attack Helicopters in 2 months and soon Engine also will be Turkish


USA will offer to sale tech when you can got from others or can produce same . this is what they did with us for BVR missiles . when we will have SD-10 they sale aim120 .



cabatli_53 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069569240875900928
> TAI states that the revealed news about Pakistani Ataks are fake.


paint few of them with paksitani colors and flag and case closes

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## Sulman Badshah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068955867876392960

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Sulman Badshah said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068955867876392960


This way all deliveries will made in days rather than years...


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## Cornered Tiger

Sulman Badshah said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068955867876392960


He mentioned PA configuration. Whats that exactly?


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## Arsalan

Cornered Tiger said:


> He mentioned PA configuration. Whats that exactly?


Changes were requested for hot dessert terrain (dust and sand) etc. May be that. I few additional filters? etc

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## Cornered Tiger

Arsalan said:


> Changes were requested for hot dessert terrain (dust and sand) etc. May be that. I few additional filters? etc



and what about weapon configurations?


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Nonsense... There is not such thing called civilian engine put on military hardware. It will automatically fall under military registration.


just like PTC67c for Z10 , it is supposed to be a covillian.engine as well.


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## Arsalan

Cornered Tiger said:


> and what about weapon configurations?


I think we will be going the standard gun and missile setup. To start at least. UMTAS ATGM, Cirit from Rokestan etc

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> I think we will be going the standard gun and missile setup. To start at least. UMTAS ATGM, Cirit from Rokestan etc


In addition to what you have mentioned was engine coverings to dampen the heat signature. 

However with the latest issue regarding the engines these changes would be of little to no effect as a complete new phase of testing and modification would be required.

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## -------

Path-Finder said:


> I don't know where I read this but the engine used in T129 is a civilian engine and not a military engine thus there is NO need for any export license on the civilian version of the engine?
> 
> Not sure if its true.



Not civilian, it's a commercial engine for export. The LHTEC T-800 developed for the comanche is export restricted.

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## Nasr

Civilian, commercial, military or otherwise, what needs to change is the mindset that western tech wouldn't be embargoed/sanctioned. Two wars have taught us that, repercussions of nuclear tests have proven it, Las Malvinas War b/w Argentina and britain is another glaring example. Wisdom teaches us to use tact accordingly, while stupidity tends to always repeat itself. So the point I am trying to make here is, that if Pakistan Military is so hell bent on western weapons (even if they have a turkish flag slapped on them), then they must ensure the survivability of these weapons' platforms by incorporating bullet proof contingencies. Case in point, the much vaunted F-16s, for all their glitz and tech advancements, can be Pakistan Air Force's Achilles Heel if there aren't any contingencies in place with a sizable stockpile of spare parts, engines and etc. Because when war comes (not if), we would be sitting around like a bunch of idiots, feeling the same way we did during Kargil War. And before anyone makes the mistake by saying that Kargil was different and that we are better equipped now, think again. F-16 Block-52s are by doctrine, marked to take on indian flankers, because there is nothing else in our inventory that could do the job (barring Block-lll Thunders, which are yet to be manufactured). Hence I would urge Pakistan's Military leadership, to heed the advice of not being so naive in thinking that turks have our backs when it comes to the Vipers. They don't, they have their own back, and if all else fails to get the leadership's undivided attention. Then need I remind them that turk military (hardcore, in depth) have been in cooperation with israel for decades. F-4 Phantom and F-5 Tiger modernization, use of Ofeq satellites, M60 tank modernization, Popey missile sales, UAV Heron sales, are but the tip of the iceberg. These are just known programs of the past. The undisclosed ones are to maintain the facade that Erdogan's govt calls the shots, the reality is far from it. 

T-129s are yet another example of our gullibility, Milgem corvettes follows on the same track. Instead of enhancing ties with Russia and establishing an intellectual base (Air University is an example) whereby we create a core of intellect on the fundamental brain bank of engineering, nautical or aeronautical, aerodynamics and so on. This brain core would engage with partners such as China and Russia, on their level, as partner nation, not just as a stake holder financially. In the mean time, Pakistan Army ought to be looking hard at Russian Ka-52s and Chinese Z-10MEs.

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## xbat

Ghazwa1 said:


> This brain core would engage with partners such as China and Russia, on their level, as partner nation, not just as a stake holder financially. In the mean time, Pakistan Army ought to be looking hard at Russian Ka-52s and Chinese Z-10MEs.



good luck sir! ruskies are not a nation to work together, you cant get tech from them but they can suck your money. China is looking for her hegemony and you already fell into trap.

it is good to have scientists but you have to wait for years to get ripe fruit.


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## azza



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## Dazzler

azza said:


>


Sheer eyecandy

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## dBSPL

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073496237079441409
Gökbey (T625) will be mass production in 2021 with domestic engine. The system is ready, current tests continue with temporary engine.

This means that the LHTEC engines used on the T129 B1 are no longer a political lever.

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## Irfan Baloch

dBSPL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073496237079441409
> Gökbey (T625) will be mass production in 2021 with domestic engine. The system is ready, current tests continue with temporary engine.
> 
> This means that the LHTEC engines used on the T129 B1 are no longer a political lever.


God Bless Turkey 
God Bless the Turkish engineering and craftsmanship

Long Live the Friendship

I look forward to Turkish powered T-129s in Pakistani colors soon 

Amen



cabatli_53 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069569240875900928
> TAI states that the revealed news about Pakistani Ataks are fake.


what news. what does it mean? deal or no deal? issues?



BATMAN said:


> Quality of Turkish defense products and other technological products they produce is better then China, and i'm telling this because i'm a technical person and i have seen Chinese technological products, worked with China engineers and also with Turkish technological products and Turkish engineers and technical staff.
> 
> 
> 
> US govt. is openly showing animosity towards Pakistan. Pakistan need to move beyond the words and block all Indian and US transit through Pakistan and for once act in interest of Pakistan.
> Americans should be banned in Pakistan as next step.


Turkish power plant for the T-129 is upcoming. this is good news. American administration can shove those sanctions and blacklist up theirs

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## Maxpane

Means we dnt have any deal?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

dBSPL said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073496237079441409
> Gökbey (T625) will be mass production in 2021 with domestic engine. The system is ready, current tests continue with temporary engine.
> 
> This means that the LHTEC engines used on the T129 B1 are no longer a political lever.


The name of "Gokbey" itself is extremely Turkic...

Best of luck...



Irfan Baloch said:


> God Bless Turkey
> God Bless the Turkish engineering and craftsmanship
> 
> Long Live the Friendship
> 
> I look forward to Turkish powered T-129s in Pakistani colors soon
> 
> Amen
> 
> 
> what news. what does it mean? deal or no deal? issues?
> 
> 
> Turkish power plant for the T-129 is upcoming. this is good news. American administration can shove those sanctions and blacklist up theirs


According to the Turkish official, the program is going on as planned. The news coming out regarding the Pak ATAks isn't true (e.g., #FakeNews). They have applied for the export license and they hope to get the approval soon...

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## HAIDER

_Ankara and Islamabad have agreed to seek replacement engines for 30 Turkish-made attack helicopters after the US blocked supplies. Some Turkish officials say Washington is retaliating for the purchase of Russian-made missiles. 
In July, Turkey and Pakistan signed their biggest-ever arms deal, ending four years of negotiations. The Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is to produce 30 T129 ATAK multipurpose helicopters for the Pakistani military for $1.5 billion. The model is a derivative from the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, which integrates Turkish avionics and weapons with AgustaWestland’s airframe and has some upgrades.
The deal however hit a stumbling block after the Turkish company failed to obtain an export license from the US Department of Defense. The license is required for the US-made parts of the engines that are meant to power the aircraft. The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines are produced by a joint venture of the US-based manufacturer Honeywell and Britain’s Rolls-Royce.

“This is not a technological or financial matter but is purely political at the moment,” a senior Turkish procurement official told Defense News in August, after the problem arose.

With the license problems seemingly nowhere near a resolution, Pakistan and Turkey agreed to seek a replacement variant for the engines, Turkey’s Hurriyet reported on Thursday. *Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers, provided that new tests are made to confirm performance in high-altitude and bad weather conditions*. The US-British engines were tested on the T129 to conform to Pakistani demands in 2016. TAI hopes it will be able to complete the contract in five years, the newspaper reported._


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## 帅的一匹

this is somwhow little bit awkward.


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## Path-Finder

Combat-Master said:


> Not civilian, it's a commercial engine for export. The LHTEC T-800 developed for the comanche is export restricted.


Yes commercial engine thanks for the clarification.


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## GriffinsRule

HAIDER said:


> _Ankara and Islamabad have agreed to seek replacement engines for 30 Turkish-made attack helicopters after the US blocked supplies. Some Turkish officials say Washington is retaliating for the purchase of Russian-made missiles.
> In July, Turkey and Pakistan signed their biggest-ever arms deal, ending four years of negotiations. The Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is to produce 30 T129 ATAK multipurpose helicopters for the Pakistani military for $1.5 billion. The model is a derivative from the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, which integrates Turkish avionics and weapons with AgustaWestland’s airframe and has some upgrades.
> The deal however hit a stumbling block after the Turkish company failed to obtain an export license from the US Department of Defense. The license is required for the US-made parts of the engines that are meant to power the aircraft. The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines are produced by a joint venture of the US-based manufacturer Honeywell and Britain’s Rolls-Royce.
> 
> “This is not a technological or financial matter but is purely political at the moment,” a senior Turkish procurement official told Defense News in August, after the problem arose.
> 
> With the license problems seemingly nowhere near a resolution, Pakistan and Turkey agreed to seek a replacement variant for the engines, Turkey’s Hurriyet reported on Thursday. *Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers, provided that new tests are made to confirm performance in high-altitude and bad weather conditions*. The US-British engines were tested on the T129 to conform to Pakistani demands in 2016. TAI hopes it will be able to complete the contract in five years, the newspaper reported._



This news has already been discredited


----------



## imadul

Ghazwa1 said:


> Civilian, commercial, military or otherwise, what needs to change is the mindset that western tech wouldn't be embargoed/sanctioned. Two wars have taught us that, repercussions of nuclear tests have proven it, Las Malvinas War b/w Argentina and britain is another glaring example. Wisdom teaches us to use tact accordingly, while stupidity tends to always repeat itself. So the point I am trying to make here is, that if Pakistan Military is so hell bent on western weapons (even if they have a turkish flag slapped on them), then they must ensure the survivability of these weapons' platforms by incorporating bullet proof contingencies. Case in point, the much vaunted F-16s, for all their glitz and tech advancements, can be Pakistan Air Force's Achilles Heel if there aren't any contingencies in place with a sizable stockpile of spare parts, engines and etc. Because when war comes (not if), we would be sitting around like a bunch of idiots, feeling the same way we did during Kargil War. And before anyone makes the mistake by saying that Kargil was different and that we are better equipped now, think again. F-16 Block-52s are by doctrine, marked to take on indian flankers, because there is nothing else in our inventory that could do the job (barring Block-lll Thunders, which are yet to be manufactured). Hence I would urge Pakistan's Military leadership, to heed the advice of not being so naive in thinking that turks have our backs when it comes to the Vipers. They don't, they have their own back, and if all else fails to get the leadership's undivided attention. Then need I remind them that turk military (hardcore, in depth) have been in cooperation with israel for decades. F-4 Phantom and F-5 Tiger modernization, use of Ofeq satellites, M60 tank modernization, Popey missile sales, UAV Heron sales, are but the tip of the iceberg. These are just known programs of the past. The undisclosed ones are to maintain the facade that Erdogan's govt calls the shots, the reality is far from it.
> 
> T-129s are yet another example of our gullibility, Milgem corvettes follows on the same track. Instead of enhancing ties with Russia and establishing an intellectual base (Air University is an example) whereby we create a core of intellect on the fundamental brain bank of engineering, nautical or aeronautical, aerodynamics and so on. This brain core would engage with partners such as China and Russia, on their level, as partner nation, not just as a stake holder financially. In the mean time, Pakistan Army ought to be looking hard at Russian Ka-52s and Chinese Z-10MEs.


Ka-52 and mil mi-28NE both are beastly excellent heavy fixed rotor platforms. Russia was negotiating to equip Egypt's mistral with Ka-52K. 
Pak will need one of the above for heavy anti armor role as vipers wont be coming. Even if they come I dont see any after sales support and spares during conflicts.
Did Pakistan already pay for vipers?

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## Nasr

imadul said:


> Ka-52 and mil mi-28NE both are beastly excellent heavy fixed rotor platforms. Russia was negotiating to equip Egypt's mistral with Ka-52K.
> Pak will need one of the above for heavy anti armor role as vipers wont be coming. Even if they come I dont see any after sales support and spares during conflicts.
> 
> Did Pakistan already pay for vipers?



No they didn't, F-16's procurement came via EDA (excess defense article) and FMS (foreign military sales). Part or full sum of the money for Block-52 Vipers came from the MNNA/USAID ($3 billion per year). Which is why, when Pakistan Air Force was placing an order for 8 more Block-52 Vipers, the Trump administration cut off USAID/FMS/MNNA route for Pakistan. This meant that Pakistan would have had to pay the full $700 million, as opposed to the subsidized $300 million.

As for the Turkish T-129 deal, is was doomed to face problems from the get go. Alas, Pakistan ought to learn from history that the West is not to be trusted at all, they have a notorious and dubious history of going back on deals. Be it the french with the Argentinians, who if had been supplied with more exocet missiles, would have defeated the British in the Las Malvinas Islands War (otherwise known as the Falklands War). Same goes for Pakistan who were hit by sanctions from the US in the 1965 War. Pakistan Military at the time was overwhelmingly equipped with American military hardware and due to the sanctions, was forced to come to the negotiating table. Dependency on western weapons is detrimental to any country which wishes to exercize it's independence in foreign and domestic policy. It is better to go for Russian Ka-52s, Mi-28s PROVIDED the Russians agree to long lead spares and full spectrum MRO facilities.


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## MIRauf

President Trump wasn't in office during the last 8 F-16 deals, it was President Obama and he had to go with Congress Bill that blocked the FMS funding for F-16s under Indian Lobby ( Congress Members under Indian Payroll. )

Russia will also stop supply of parts, just as US did / will during hostilities. Beside Pak is not a huge market for Russian to setup MRO facilities for Heli and such, unlike the RD-93s.


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## Abu Zarrar

*Sanctions hold up the plan of ATAK*
The ink was still drying on Turkey’s deal with Pakistan for 30 T129 tactical reconnaissance and attack helicopters (ATAKs) when it appeared US sanctions could jeopardise the sale. Alan Warnes reports.

US export licenses could be declined for the ATAK’s T800 turboshaft engines produced by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between Rolls-Royce and US company, Honeywell.
After trying to close the Pakistan Army contract for eight years, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), thought its biggest export deal had finally been nailed.
But US President Donald Trump had already suspended all security assistance with Pakistan on January 4, “until it takes action against the Afghan Taliban and Haqqani network terror groups”.
Trump accused Pakistan of “deceit and lies” when working with the US Government.
It led to the first three of 12 Boeing-Bell AH-1Z Vipers destined for the Pakistan Army being halted. The helicopters had been flying and personnel were being trained in the US when everything was stopped.
Four months later, the Pakistan and Turkish governments agreed a deal on the 30 ATAKs, which would replace the obsolete and outdated Pakistan Army AH-1F/S Cobras.
Both Turkey and Pakistan are still confident that Trump’s sanctions won’t affect their business.
There is better news on the domestic front, however, with 86 T129 ATAKs on order – 59 for the Turkish Land Command (TLAC), 18 for the Gendarmerie General Command (GGC) and nine for the Polis. 
A formal ceremony was held on April 19 to mark the introduction of the first three T129s for the GGC.
The attack helicopters will boost the service’s close air support capability, while also being used for intelligence gathering and reconnaissance. They are expected to be operated close to the border with Iraq, where Turkey has an ongoing war with fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (KWP).
By mid-July 36 T129s had been delivered, 33 to the TLAC and three for the GGC.
This year’s Farnborough International Airshow in July saw the first public appearance of TAI’s proposed Hurjet jet trainer, albeit in mock-up form.
According to TAI’s corporate marketing and vice president, Tamer Ozman, the single-engine jet is expected to make its first flight in 2022 and the first should enter Turkish Air Force service in 2025.
“We want to produce an aircraft that fits in between the Hurkus basic trainer and the fifth-generation Turkish Fighter (TF) that will fly in 2023. The Hurjet advanced jet trainer will fill that gap,” he said.
The Turkish Government announced on July 22, the day after Farnborough ended, that TAI, the Undersecretariat for the Defence Industries (SSM), and the Turkish Air Force had signed the Hurjet project protocol agreement on July 2. The document agreed that there would be five Hurjet prototypes, manufactured in two different configurations – an advanced jet trainer (AJT) and a light combat aircraft (LCA).
TAI intends to supply a jet that will allow fighter pilots to move seamlessly from the turboprop trainer to the jet. The T-38s that TAI upgraded between 2011-2016 will not be able to soldier on much past 2023.
The US Air Force is already planning to buy around 350 dual-seat jet trainers to replace its T-38Cs that were upgraded in the late-90s. Under its T-X programme, Lockheed Martin and Korea Aerospace Industries have teamed up to offer the T-50A; Boeing and Saab are collaborating on a clean sheet design; while Leonardo is offering a version of its M-346 trainer known as the T-100.
But TAI is set to offer an international traffic in arms regulations (ITAR)-free solution that will help it boost its new engineering, development and engineering skills. It knows what the solution is, as Ozman explained: “It will be a 5-6 ton class aircraft, similar in size to the F-16, with a 13 metre fuselage, 10 metre wingspan and 4 metres high. It will be powered by an engine that will allow it to go supersonic, at around Mach 1.2.”
The search is now ongoing for an engine, which is likely to include the usual suspects like General Electric (GE), Rolls-Royce and Safran. They all offered options to power the TF, with Rolls-Royce the likeliest to emerge as winner given the keenness of the UK Government to play a part in developing the new fighter.
Overseeing the selection is the newly established domestic company, TR Motor, tasked to design and manufacture Turkey’s military jet engines. Set up by SSM, TR Motor now has its work cut out with the search, development and integration of the powerplants for both the TF and Hurjet projects.
The Hurjet will also call upon Turkish avionics and weapons, and initially act as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) for the F-16 and maybe the F-35, as well as TF.
Just like the Hurkus, there will also be a light attack variant, known as the Hurjet-C. According to Ozman, it will incorporate all the systems to satisfy the light attack aircraft requirements of the modern warfare, which will include a radar.
According to TAI, the Hurjet-C will have an “extensive payload” capacity of 6,000lbs that will include locally built 250lb, 500lb, 1,000lb conventional and guided munitions.
There is also set to be a conformal gunpod, targeting pod, and within visual range (WVR) and beyond visual range (BVR) missiles.
Aselsan and Havelsan are both set to figure highly in the aircraft’s development.
The new jet trainer was initially being funded by TAI, but the July 2 protocol agreement seems to have changed that. “We are looking for partners and believe there is a big market,” Ozman added
Questioned about Qatar’s possible involvement, given that it has so many fighters on order (36 Rafales, 36 F-15QAs and 24 Eurofighters), Ozman would only say that they have been talking to Qatar about LIFT and a light attack aircraft.
TAI announced at Farnborough that six Anka-S medium altitude long endurance (MALE) systems had been delivered to the Turkish Air Force.
All six systems, handed over in February, March and April, can be controlled simultaneously via satellite. Each has two air vehicles thought to be equipped with the FLIR Systems Star SAFIRE 380HLD payload rather than the Aselsan-developed common aperture targeting system (CATS) planned for the Anka.
Meanwhile, the Anka-B has entered service with Turkish Naval Forces Command (TNFC) at Dalaman Naval Air Base.
TAI is believed to be operating the Anka-B under a lease contract, with the first operational flight over the Aegean Sea taking place on March 27. The gendarmerie and army are also expected to take deliveries of the Anka-B in the future

Source:https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/s...ews&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=news_feed


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## Signalian

Pakistan is instrumental in going indigenous initially through Chinese assistance, and countries which need to export weapons to Pakistan are also encouraged for in-house solutions i.e Ukraine for T-80 and Now Turkey for T-129.

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## mingle

Abu Zarrar said:


> *Sanctions hold up the plan of ATAK*
> The ink was still drying on Turkey’s deal with Pakistan for 30 T129 tactical reconnaissance and attack helicopters (ATAKs) when it appeared US sanctions could jeopardise the sale. Alan Warnes reports.
> 
> US export licenses could be declined for the ATAK’s T800 turboshaft engines produced by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between Rolls-Royce and US company, Honeywell.
> After trying to close the Pakistan Army contract for eight years, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), thought its biggest export deal had finally been nailed.
> But US President Donald Trump had already suspended all security assistance with Pakistan on January 4, “until it takes action against the Afghan Taliban and Haqqani network terror groups”.
> Trump accused Pakistan of “deceit and lies” when working with the US Government.
> It led to the first three of 12 Boeing-Bell AH-1Z Vipers destined for the Pakistan Army being halted. The helicopters had been flying and personnel were being trained in the US when everything was stopped.
> Four months later, the Pakistan and Turkish governments agreed a deal on the 30 ATAKs, which would replace the obsolete and outdated Pakistan Army AH-1F/S Cobras.
> Both Turkey and Pakistan are still confident that Trump’s sanctions won’t affect their business.
> There is better news on the domestic front, however, with 86 T129 ATAKs on order – 59 for the Turkish Land Command (TLAC), 18 for the Gendarmerie General Command (GGC) and nine for the Polis.
> A formal ceremony was held on April 19 to mark the introduction of the first three T129s for the GGC.
> The attack helicopters will boost the service’s close air support capability, while also being used for intelligence gathering and reconnaissance. They are expected to be operated close to the border with Iraq, where Turkey has an ongoing war with fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (KWP).
> By mid-July 36 T129s had been delivered, 33 to the TLAC and three for the GGC.
> This year’s Farnborough International Airshow in July saw the first public appearance of TAI’s proposed Hurjet jet trainer, albeit in mock-up form.
> According to TAI’s corporate marketing and vice president, Tamer Ozman, the single-engine jet is expected to make its first flight in 2022 and the first should enter Turkish Air Force service in 2025.
> “We want to produce an aircraft that fits in between the Hurkus basic trainer and the fifth-generation Turkish Fighter (TF) that will fly in 2023. The Hurjet advanced jet trainer will fill that gap,” he said.
> The Turkish Government announced on July 22, the day after Farnborough ended, that TAI, the Undersecretariat for the Defence Industries (SSM), and the Turkish Air Force had signed the Hurjet project protocol agreement on July 2. The document agreed that there would be five Hurjet prototypes, manufactured in two different configurations – an advanced jet trainer (AJT) and a light combat aircraft (LCA).
> TAI intends to supply a jet that will allow fighter pilots to move seamlessly from the turboprop trainer to the jet. The T-38s that TAI upgraded between 2011-2016 will not be able to soldier on much past 2023.
> The US Air Force is already planning to buy around 350 dual-seat jet trainers to replace its T-38Cs that were upgraded in the late-90s. Under its T-X programme, Lockheed Martin and Korea Aerospace Industries have teamed up to offer the T-50A; Boeing and Saab are collaborating on a clean sheet design; while Leonardo is offering a version of its M-346 trainer known as the T-100.
> But TAI is set to offer an international traffic in arms regulations (ITAR)-free solution that will help it boost its new engineering, development and engineering skills. It knows what the solution is, as Ozman explained: “It will be a 5-6 ton class aircraft, similar in size to the F-16, with a 13 metre fuselage, 10 metre wingspan and 4 metres high. It will be powered by an engine that will allow it to go supersonic, at around Mach 1.2.”
> The search is now ongoing for an engine, which is likely to include the usual suspects like General Electric (GE), Rolls-Royce and Safran. They all offered options to power the TF, with Rolls-Royce the likeliest to emerge as winner given the keenness of the UK Government to play a part in developing the new fighter.
> Overseeing the selection is the newly established domestic company, TR Motor, tasked to design and manufacture Turkey’s military jet engines. Set up by SSM, TR Motor now has its work cut out with the search, development and integration of the powerplants for both the TF and Hurjet projects.
> The Hurjet will also call upon Turkish avionics and weapons, and initially act as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) for the F-16 and maybe the F-35, as well as TF.
> Just like the Hurkus, there will also be a light attack variant, known as the Hurjet-C. According to Ozman, it will incorporate all the systems to satisfy the light attack aircraft requirements of the modern warfare, which will include a radar.
> According to TAI, the Hurjet-C will have an “extensive payload” capacity of 6,000lbs that will include locally built 250lb, 500lb, 1,000lb conventional and guided munitions.
> There is also set to be a conformal gunpod, targeting pod, and within visual range (WVR) and beyond visual range (BVR) missiles.
> Aselsan and Havelsan are both set to figure highly in the aircraft’s development.
> The new jet trainer was initially being funded by TAI, but the July 2 protocol agreement seems to have changed that. “We are looking for partners and believe there is a big market,” Ozman added
> Questioned about Qatar’s possible involvement, given that it has so many fighters on order (36 Rafales, 36 F-15QAs and 24 Eurofighters), Ozman would only say that they have been talking to Qatar about LIFT and a light attack aircraft.
> TAI announced at Farnborough that six Anka-S medium altitude long endurance (MALE) systems had been delivered to the Turkish Air Force.
> All six systems, handed over in February, March and April, can be controlled simultaneously via satellite. Each has two air vehicles thought to be equipped with the FLIR Systems Star SAFIRE 380HLD payload rather than the Aselsan-developed common aperture targeting system (CATS) planned for the Anka.
> Meanwhile, the Anka-B has entered service with Turkish Naval Forces Command (TNFC) at Dalaman Naval Air Base.
> TAI is believed to be operating the Anka-B under a lease contract, with the first operational flight over the Aegean Sea taking place on March 27. The gendarmerie and army are also expected to take deliveries of the Anka-B in the future
> 
> Source:https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/s...ews&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=news_feed


It's again fake news I never heard about Arabian aerospace? Atak is on track I remember JF-17 time lot rumours about engines but plane is still flying today. Pak is a customer and turkey is supplier they said its on track then why we worry? Plus in this deal special thing is we can take Atak from turkish Army as well u know what I mean?
IK is going turkey in March he gonna sign deal for first 30 badge.

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## araz

Ghazwa1 said:


> No they didn't, F-16's procurement came via EDA (excess defense article) and FMS (foreign military sales). Part or full sum of the money for Block-52 Vipers came from the MNNA/USAID ($3 billion per year). Which is why, when Pakistan Air Force was placing an order for 8 more Block-52 Vipers, the Trump administration cut off USAID/FMS/MNNA route for Pakistan. This meant that Pakistan would have had to pay the full $700 million, as opposed to the subsidized $300 million.
> 
> As for the Turkish T-129 deal, is was doomed to face problems from the get go. Alas, Pakistan ought to learn from history that the West is not to be trusted at all, they have a notorious and dubious history of going back on deals. Be it the french with the Argentinians, who if had been supplied with more exocet missiles, would have defeated the British in the Las Malvinas Islands War (otherwise known as the Falklands War). Same goes for Pakistan who were hit by sanctions from the US in the 1965 War. Pakistan Military at the time was overwhelmingly equipped with American military hardware and due to the sanctions, was forced to come to the negotiating table. Dependency on western weapons is detrimental to any country which wishes to exercize it's independence in foreign and domestic policy. It is better to go for Russian Ka-52s, Mi-28s PROVIDED the Russians agree to long lead spares and full spectrum MRO facilities.


I will only comment on the British engagement in Malvinas Island. My understanding was that the British blackmailed the French into giving them source codes for their equipment which invalidated the advantage for Argentina. If the UK had failed they would have Nuked Argentina and that was the threat Maggie Thatcher used to extract the information from the Ferench. However if you have more authentic sources for your claims I will happily cede to your version. Generally UN sanctions are automatically applied to sections of the world where there is a war or ongoing war and no country is *supposed* to supply arms to the region. We all know the reality can be a different bird altogether when it suits the country's national interests.
A


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## Tank131

araz said:


> I will only comment on the British engagement in Malvinas Island. My understanding was that the British blackmailed the French into giving them source codes for their equipment which invalidated the advantage for Argentina. If the UK had failed they would have Nuked Argentina and that was the threat Maggie Thatcher used to extract the information from the Ferench. However if you have more authentic sources for your claims I will happily cede to your version. Generally UN sanctions are automatically applied to sections of the world where there is a war or ongoing war and no country is *supposed* to supply arms to the region. We all know the reality can be a different bird altogether when it suits the country's national interests.
> A



Im not aware that the UK used nuclear blackmail to extract source codes, but the common held view is they pressured the French to halt the supply of exocets to the Argentine (which subsequently ran out of the weapon all together). There are no reports I have found that they the british were able to neutralize the exocet in any significant or meaningful way. The french had delivered only 5 exocets at the start of the conflict and a few more were delivered in short order before the embargo went into effect. The french had not yet even completed integration of the missile into the Super Etendards which the argentines (and a covert french technical team did after the start of the conflict). 

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17256975

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## Irfan Baloch

Tank131 said:


> Im not aware that the UK used nuclear blackmail to extract source codes, but the common held view is they pressured the French to halt the supply of exocets to the Argentine (which subsequently ran out of the weapon all together). There are no reports I have found that they the british were able to neutralize the exocet in any significant or meaningful way. The french had delivered only 5 exocets at the start of the conflict and a few more were delivered in short order before the embargo went into effect. The french had not yet even completed integration of the missile into the Super Etendards which the argentines (and a covert french technical team did after the start of the conflict).
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17256975


hi 
@araz 
both 
I actually saw a BBC program on this war where British Naval officer who was part of the task force actually praised the French for helping with the source code.

the program also detailed how the Brits used the method of fake sellers selling the said missile to waste Argentinian money and deny them from other third parties 
there was no suggestion of nuclear blackmail or coercion of french who might have said f off and nuke Argentina for all we care. (there might have been some secret negotiation etc but both are neighbors and NATO partners so I dont think it would have been that hard).

the French cooperation and help re Falklands war is usually brought up as a proof that they are allies (e.h while discussing the impact of Brexit).

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## Nasr

araz said:


> I will only comment on the British engagement in Malvinas Island. My understanding was that the British blackmailed the French into giving them source codes for their equipment which invalidated the advantage for Argentina. If the UK had failed they would have Nuked Argentina and that was the threat Maggie Thatcher used to extract the information from the Ferench. However if you have more authentic sources for your claims I will happily cede to your version. Generally UN sanctions are automatically applied to sections of the world where there is a war or ongoing war and no country is *supposed* to supply arms to the region. We all know the reality can be a different bird altogether when it suits the country's national interests.



My friend, I don't know where you got that information from, but I will be honest with you, in that it sounds like horse-shit. If you've read history long enough, in particular British history like I have. Then you would know that the only ones who can manage to keep a straight face and bullshit all day long, are Imperial Brits. 

French and British animosity aside, being part of NATO aside as well, no country would really give up source codes of its missile systems. Particularly when it isn't the country threatened to be nuked. Besides, Brits didn't even wield that sort of power or authority. Britain lost its great power status when Egypt declared the nationalization of the Suez Canal. The British threatened to go to war against Egypt, but then the Americans intervened and put Britain in its place. Britain doesn't even have its own delivery system for its nukes. They're American Trident nuclear ballistic missiles with British nuke warheads.

Why the French cooperated with the British when it came to not selling anymore Exocet missiles to Argentina. The only logical explanation is NATO, whereby if any NATO member is attacked, other member states are obligated to come to the other's aid. Aside from that, there isn't any other rational explanation.


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## araz

Ghazwa1 said:


> My friend, I don't know where you got that information from, but I will be honest with you, in that it sounds like horse-shit. If you've read history long enough, in particular British history like I have. Then you would know that the only ones who can manage to keep a straight face and bullshit all day long, are Imperial Brits.
> 
> French and British animosity aside, being part of NATO aside as well, no country would really give up source codes of its missile systems. Particularly when it isn't the country threatened to be nuked. Besides, Brits didn't even wield that sort of power or authority. Britain lost its great power status when Egypt declared the nationalization of the Suez Canal. The British threatened to go to war against Egypt, but then the Americans intervened and put Britain in its place. Britain doesn't even have its own delivery system for its nukes. They're American Trident nuclear ballistic missiles with British nuke warheads.
> 
> Why the French cooperated with the British when it came to not selling anymore Exocet missiles to Argentina. The only logical explanation is NATO, whereby if any NATO member is attacked, other member states are obligated to come to the other's aid. Aside from that, there isn't any other rational explanation.


Openly reported on BBC by BA defence reporters of the time. So if the press specifically BBC and the BA got it wrong then I am indeed guilty of spewing out horse shit. You dont know Maggie Thatcher when she asked for something she got it and the French relented. You may have read it but I lived it and was in university at the time and used to read avidly. If you read my posts you will know I never comment on things I dont know about.

A



Irfan Baloch said:


> hi
> @araz
> both
> I actually saw a BBC program on this war where British Naval officer who was part of the task force actually praised the French for helping with the source code.
> 
> the program also detailed how the Brits used the method of fake sellers selling the said missile to waste Argentinian money and deny them from other third parties
> there was no suggestion of nuclear blackmail or coercion of french who might have said f off and nuke Argentina for all we care. (there might have been some secret negotiation etc but both are neighbors and NATO partners so I dont think it would have been that hard).
> 
> the French cooperation and help re Falklands war is usually brought up as a proof that they are allies (e.h while discussing the impact of Brexit).


My brother I specifically remember the programme and the threat that Maggie Thatcher used to Nuke Argentina. However the point is mute as I am relying on my brain with nothing but my memory to back me up that too from a programme nearly 20yrs ago. But let us move on.
A

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## Irfan Baloch

araz said:


> Openly reported on BBC by BA defence reporters of the time. So if the press specifically BBC and the BA got it wrong then I am indeed guilty of spewing out horse shit. You dont know Maggie Thatcher when she asked for something she got it and the French relented. You may have read it but I lived it and was in university at the time and used to read avidly. If you read my posts you will know I never comment on things I dont know about.
> 
> A
> 
> 
> My brother I specifically remember the programme and the threat that Maggie Thatcher used to Nuke Argentina. However the point is mute as I am relying on my brain with nothing but my memory to back me up that too from a programme nearly 20yrs ago. But let us move on.
> A


Americans have put a spanner in our T-129 deal. their technology partnership is far reaching and the way their law is structured even a third party user cant sell their subsystems to a country they have sanctions on. 
it will be a shame that we have to give up at this capable platform and chose Chinese gunships purely for the reason that we cant have American powered T-129


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## Ahmet Pasha

If we dont get em now. We will most likely end up getting em with Turkish indigenous engine.


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## Nasr

araz said:


> Openly reported on BBC by BA defence reporters of the time. So if the press specifically BBC and the BA got it wrong then I am indeed guilty of spewing out horse shit. You dont know Maggie Thatcher when she asked for something she got it and the French relented. You may have read it but I lived it and was in university at the time and used to read avidly. If you read my posts you will know I never comment on things I dont know about.



Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post, so in the spirit of clarity and having meaningful discussion, I will explain it in better words. I didn't imply that what you said was "horse-shit," rather the information source is dubious, unreliable and excuse my french ... full of shit. The BBC is a master at churning out twisted and deceptive misinformation. They have a history to prove their sparkling accolades for deceiving the world.

Britain had no power at the time to unilaterally nuke Argentina. For starters, America wouldn't have allowed it. As bruised as their egos might get, that is a fact and there is no arguing it. Also, france wouldn't give it's missile codings based on some threat britain makes at Argentina. The story doesn't fit, has no basis to add up and is yet another ridiculous web of lies if in fact the BBC or British PM said so. 

We as Muslims, Pakistanis really ought to start looking at information through the lense of reality. Britain ain't a saint, never was, never will be. It's history is a testament to this fact. Believing their stories is an insult to our intelligence. Please be more critical of the information. France had no dog in this fight, nor did it have any benefit to gain from saving the Argentinians from being nuked. They aren't as benevolent as the British story portrays the french to be. For eight years 1946-1954, the french attempted to recover it's colonization of Vietnam. Colonialists are all the same, period.

The claim by brits that their PM threatened to nuke Argentina is bullshit. Only two superpowers existed at the time, United States and Soviet Union. No other country had the balls to unilaterally nuke another country besides USA & USSR.



Ahmet Pasha said:


> If we dont get em now. We will most likely end up getting em with Turkish indigenous engine.



Does Turkey own any western or domestic engine design bureau or engine manufacturing plants where they build the whole engine on their own? As far as I recall, the LHTEC T8004A engines are joint development export variant engine, which includes american Honeywell, british Rolls-Royce and some italian firm. The $1.5 billion deal for 30 T129 helos is in jeopardy, as turks face american wrath for buying S-400s and fight against american backed Syrian Kurds. Pakistan may also be targeted in the turk-american spate, since Pakistan has not been listening american's request of doing more against Haqqani Group. Last news I heard was the poles and french were offering to fill the engine void created by american pull out.


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## Ahmet Pasha

TUSAS is making a turkish turbo-shaft engine for helos.
Letting French in would be like letting NATO sabotage the whole deal.


Ghazwa1 said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post, so in the spirit of clarity and having meaningful discussion, I will explain it in better words. I didn't imply that what you said was "horse-shit," rather the information source is dubious, unreliable and excuse my french ... full of shit. The BBC is a master at churning out twisted and deceptive misinformation. They have a history to prove their sparkling accolades for deceiving the world.
> 
> Britain had no power at the time to unilaterally nuke Argentina. For starters, America wouldn't have allowed it. As bruised as their egos might get, that is a fact and there is no arguing it. Also, france wouldn't give it's missile codings based on some threat britain makes at Argentina. The story doesn't fit, has no basis to add up and is yet another ridiculous web of lies if in fact the BBC or British PM said so.
> 
> We as Muslims, Pakistanis really ought to start looking at information through the lense of reality. Britain ain't a saint, never was, never will be. It's history is a testament to this fact. Believing their stories is an insult to our intelligence. Please be more critical of the information. France had no dog in this fight, nor did it have any benefit to gain from saving the Argentinians from being nuked. They aren't as benevolent as the British story portrays the french to be. For eight years 1946-1954, the french attempted to recover it's colonization of Vietnam. Colonialists are all the same, period.
> 
> The claim by brits that their PM threatened to nuke Argentina is bullshit. Only two superpowers existed at the time, United States and Soviet Union. No other country had the balls to unilaterally nuke another country besides USA & USSR.
> 
> 
> 
> Does Turkey own any western or domestic engine design bureau or engine manufacturing plants where they build the whole engine on their own? As far as I recall, the LHTEC T8004A engines are joint development export variant engine, which includes american Honeywell, british Rolls-Royce and some italian firm. The $1.5 billion deal for 30 T129 helos is in jeopardy, as turks face american wrath for buying S-400s and fight against american backed Syrian Kurds. Pakistan may also be targeted in the turk-american spate, since Pakistan has not been listening american's request of doing more against Haqqani Group. Last news I heard was the poles and french were offering to fill the engine void created by american pull out.

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## Nasr

Ahmet Pasha said:


> TUSAS is making a turkish turbo-shaft engine for helos.
> Letting French in would be like letting NATO sabotage the whole deal.



The news report stated that the french and the poles have offered their engines. It doesn't mean that this is the course of action Pakistan would take. As for TUSAS making their own turbo shaft engines. If TUSAS was already proficient at making turbo shaft engines, why were they not included in the deal with Pakistan. Also, it would take several years before Turkey git anything close to resembjngs

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## araz

Support us The Guardian - Menu Thatcher 'threatened to nuke Argentina' Jon Henley in Paris @jonhenley Mon 21 Nov 2005 20.18 ESTFirst published on Mon 21 Nov 2005 20.18 EST Margaret Thatcher forced François Mitterrand to give her the codes to disable Argentina's deadly French-made missiles during the Falklands war by threatening to launch a nuclear warhead against Buenos Aires, according to a book. Rendez-vous - the psychoanalysis of François Mitterrand, by Ali Magoudi, who met the late French president up to twice a week in secrecy at his Paris practice from 1982 to 1984, also reveals that Mr Mitterrand believed he would get his "revenge" by building a tunnel under the Channel which would forever destroy Britain's island status. The book, to be published on Friday, is one of several on France's first Socialist president to mark the 10th anniversary of his death on January 8 1996. Despite a now tarnished reputation, he remains a source of fascination for the French in general and the left in particular. Rendez-vous provides revealing insights into the man's mysterious character, complicated past, paranoia and power complex, but nothing as titillating as his remarks on the former British prime minister. "Excuse me. I had a difference to settle with the Iron Lady. That Thatcher, what an impossible woman!" the president said as he arrived, more than 45 minutes late, on May 7 1982. "With her four nuclear submarines in the south Atlantic, she's threatening to unleash an atomic weapon against Argentina if I don't provide her with the secret codes that will make the missiles we sold the Argentinians deaf and blind." He reminded Mr Magoudi that on May 4 an Exocet missile had struck HMS Sheffield. "To make matters worse, it was fired from a Super-Etendard jet," he said. "All the matériel was French!" In words that the psychoanalyst has sworn to the publisher, Meren Sell, are genuine, the president continued: "She's livid. She blames me personally for this new Trafalgar ... I was obliged to give in. She's got them now, the codes." Mr Mitterrand - who once described Mrs Thatcher as "the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe" - went on: "One cannot win against the insular syndrome of an unbridled Englishwoman. Provoke a nuclear war for a few islands inhabited by three sheep as hairy as they are freezing! But it's a good job I gave way. Otherwise, I assure you, the Lady's metallic finger would have hit the button." France, he insisted, would have the last word. "I'll build a tunnel under the Channel. I'll succeed where Napoleon III failed. And do you know why she'll accept my tunnel? I'll flatter her shopkeeper's spirit. I'll tell her it won't cost the Crown a penny." Topics World news France Politics past Argentina Europe Share on LinkedInShare on PinterestShare on WhatsAppShare on Messenger View on theguardian.com About usContact usComplaints & correctionsSecure DropWork for usPrivacy policyCookie policyTerms & conditionsHelpAll topicsAll writersDigital newspaper archiveFacebookTwitterAdvertise with usGuardian LabsSearch jobs Support The Guardian ContributeSubscribe Back to top © 2019 Guardian News and Media Limited or its affiliated companies. All rights reserved.



To all the nay sayers this is a 2005 article from the Guardian. You can believe it or not. Iam done here. I just dont have the time to argue this so take it or leave it.
A

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## Nasr

araz said:


> To all the nay sayers this is a 2005 article from the Guardian. You can believe it or not. Iam done here. I just dont have the time to argue this so take it or leave it.
> A



Thank you for posting the article, it is appreciated. Hope you got what I was trying to impart to you. Best regards dear friend.

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## araz

Ghazwa1 said:


> Thank you for posting the article, it is appreciated. Hope you got what I was trying to impart to you. Best regards dear friend.


Kind regards indeed dear friend. It is nice to ve able to argue sensibly without being called a traitor or accused of spreading horse shit ( I dont hold anything against anyone and the remark is tongue in cheek rather than an angry one) Anyways lets move on. 
A

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## Gryphon

*IDEAS 2018 Private - Turkish Aerospace Industry Prepares for ATAK Delivery*

_February 12, 2019_







The news in the IDEAS 2018 Special File in the 171th issue of MSI is shared on the magazine's website:


In July, following the signing of an agreement covering 30 T129 ATAK helicopters with Pakistan, the main focus of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) on IDEAS was ATAK helicopter. TUSAŞ Corporate Marketing and Communications President Tamer Özmen evaluated the process of selling ATAK helicopters to Pakistan, the process is progressing as it should be. We made application for the systems subject to export permit in the helicopter. Of course, Turkish-American and Pakistan-American relations are important. *We do not foresee a situation that will prevent the release.* Pakistan, Turkey with their own money, want to use it as a platform that is very active in the fight against terrorism.





_Deputy Defense Minister Muhsin Dere, Pakistan Land Forces Chief of Staff Nadeem Raza and TAI Corporate Marketing and Communication Chairman Tamer Ozmen._

This platform if they are not from Turkey, the United States is not an alternative. Pakistan already has other model attack helicopters. Therefore, Pakistan will not have the ability to launch attack helicopters for the first time. Such a reason for export permit cannot be put forward. *Our expectation is to obtain export permits in the first months of 2019.* There is no concern in Pakistan.





_T129 ATAK_

TAI also talks with Pakistan for ANKA unmanned aerial vehicles. Regarding ANKA, Özmen said both the Navy and the Air Force are interested. ANKA, an operational system and do the task successfully in Turkey, where it is being carefully monitored. "he said.

Özmen stated that they work actively in the region: We are working intensively in this geography. We have expectations for 2019. We're not coming here with any negative news. Of course, it may take some time for the talks to be reflected in the contracts. When there is a platform sale, you are actually starting a relationship that will last 20 to 40 years with the logistic dimension. It is very important that both ATAK and ANKA are used by Turkish Armed Forces. ATAK was tested in Pakistan under very difficult conditions and successfully passed these tests. The world knows it. This helicopter was tested in places where no one dared to take his helicopter. Thus, ATAK showed that it is an unrivaled product for everyone. If we start ATAK's delivery to Pakistan in 2019, it will contribute to our efforts in the region.





_Turkish Aviation and Space Industry's IDEAS 2018 team, together with officials from the Turkish delegation._
_
_
Translated from:
IDEAS 2018 Özel – Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii, ATAK Teslimatı için Hazırlanıyor | milscint.com

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## IceCold

When are we going to get them? Any chance these will be here on 23rd March?

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## Cool_Soldier

Great News indeed.
2019 might see some examples to be delivered.

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## Gryphon

The contract towards the sale of 30 T129B ATAK Light Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters to Pakistan Land Forces was signed on 16 May 2018, yet it did not enter into effect as of 25 September 2018 and (T+0) was not launched. As the validity period of the contract will be ending in November 2018, the stipulations required for the effect of the contract should be fulfilled until that date. According to the information we received, Pakistan made the down-payment in compliance with the contract and the Program Management Revision (PMR) meeting was decided to be held within October. Official application to the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft engine utilized on the helicopter was made, the process was completed in the Foreign Affairs Commission and the request was submitted to the U.S. Department of Defence. The approval process was still underway as of 25 September. Turkish Aerospace previously received the Original License Document from the U.S. Government for the sale/export of the T129B to Pakistan. *In line with the information we received, regarding the Project, which is expected to cost US$1.5 Billion, Pakistan will be making the payment of the credit granted by Turkey, from its own budget and in installments on a schedule extending 10 years. Even though negative feedback is not expected from the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the CTS800-4A turboshaft engine, negotiations with the company Turbomeca, part of the French Safran Group, are being conducted on alternative engine options as an alternative solution.* Previously, within the scope of the tender that was opened in order to fulfill the engine requests of the Turkish Multi Role Helicopter (T625) (civil and military versions) Turbomeca competed with the Arrano (TM800) solution with 100% ‘ITAR Free’ characteristics and with 1.100shp to 1.300shp power capacity, yet in the tender finalized in April 2015 the winner was LHTEC Company with the CTS800-4AT engine.

Excerpt from:

Seen and Heard at the ADEX 2018 Exhibition | defenceturkey.com
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ




The Pakistan Army’s T129 ATAK Helicopters will have a similar configuration with that of the Turkish Army’s T129Bs and the first batch of 10 helicopters would be delivered in T129B Phase-I configuration and the remaining 20 helicopters in T129B Phase-II configuration. At the final phase of the program the first batch of 10 helicopters will be upgraded to Phase-II configuration.


The fuselage production of T129 Mk-I ATAK Multirole Combat Helicopters for the first export customer Pakistan started in the second half of 2018. *If the problems in the agreement regarding the export license of the engines can be solved, pilot training is expected to start within 2019 with the first two T129B1 Helicopters to be completed and the helicopters will be delivered to Pakistan in 2020.*

Excerpt from:

T129 ATAK Multirole Combat Helicopter and MilDaR Fire Control Radar | defenceturkey.com
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ

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## mingle

According to Ahmed tipu Pak Army Aviation is looking 30 more ATAK Heli after these 30 so we looking total numbers 60.

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## syed_yusuf

mingle said:


> According to Ahmed tipu Pak Army Aviation is looking 30 more ATAK Heli after these 30 so we looking total numbers 60.


why don't Pakistan assemble them in the country

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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> why don't Pakistan assemble them in the country


Not sure but I read on twitter means we going big with turks . I also read today on Ahmed twitter US offered Pak scout Helis MD530G let's see 2.5 million brand new I thing 25 to 30 of them can compliment cobras

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## The Accountant

syed_yusuf said:


> why don't Pakistan assemble them in the country


I think they will be assembled in Pakistan with repair and maintenance facility in pakistan

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## Gryphon

mingle said:


> Not sure but I read on twitter means we going big with turks . I also read today on Ahmed twitter US offered Pak scout Helis MD530G let's see 2.5 million brand new I thing 25 to 30 of them can compliment cobras



Pakistan Army has selected the Fennec as its armed recon / light attack helicopter. When more examples arrive, ageing JetRangers used by Cobra squadrons for scout role will be retired.

MD 530 was offered to PA several years ago when procurement of the first batch of 10 Fennec's ran into trouble and the OEM considered selling these to Philippines.



Btw, there are rumours Bell is looking for a buyer for 12 AH-1Z's built for Pakistan and the USMC has shown willingness to induct these into its inventory.

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## Mir Shahzain

@Zara Ali @Quwa What are main features which differs Type A & Type B


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mir Shahzain said:


> @Zara Ali @Quwa What are main features which differs Type A & Type B



_According to Turkish Aerospace’s General manager Temel Kotil, the PAA will begin receiving its T129s in “less than a year.”[3] Based on the five-year project timeline, it appears that the PAA will induct its ATAK on an incremental basis, i.e. in small (e.g. 5-6 aircraft) annual batches. The first 10 ATAKs for the PAA will be T129B Block-Is, which will be similarly configured as the Turkish Armed Forces’ (TSK) Block-I.[4] The next 20 will be Block-IIs which, again, will be configured along similar lines as the TSK’s Block-IIs.[5]

The T129B Block-I is a baseline configuration equipped with an electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret, an integrated avionics suite, and semi-active laser-homing (SALH) anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) as well as 70 mm SALH air-to-ground rockets. The Roketsan UMTAS (Mizrak) ATGM offers a range of 500 m to 8,000 m.[6] Supporting weapons include the Roketsan CİRİT, a 2.75” air-to-ground rocket (range: 1,500 m to 8,000 m) and a single 20 mm nose-mounted cannon.

The onboard electronics suite also includes Aselsan’s AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System, which enables the pilot to direct the EO/IR turret for target identification and tracking.[7] In addition, the T129B Block-I is also equipped with a self-protection suite comprising of a missile warning system, a chaff and flare countermeasure system and directed infrared countermeasure system.[8] It is also includes the MXF-484 and 9651 V/UHF (Very and Ultra-High Frequency) radio systems (produced by Aselsan).[9]

The T129B Block-II retains the Block-I’s configuration, but it also features an electronic warfare (EW) suite equipped with a radio-frequency jammer, radar warning receiver (RWR), laser warning receiver (LWR) and Aselsan’s 9681 V/UHF (Very and Ultra-High Frequency) airborne radio terminals.[10] 

Helen Haxell. “Farnborough 2018: Turkish Aerospace expanding helicopter portfolio.” Shephard Media. 17 July 2018. URL: https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/...rough-2018-turkish-aerospace-expanding-helic/ (Last Accessed: 13 July 2018).

“Pakistan Chief of General Staff – T129 ATA Show Flight Tracked at Farnborough Air Show.” Defence Turkey. 16 July 2018. URL: http://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ice...atak-gosteri-ucusunu-izledi-3113#.W1UxU9JKiUn (Last Accessed: 13 July 2018).

Cem Akalın. “Turkey Ramps up T129 “Atak” Attack Helicopter Production.” Defence Turkey. Volume 12. Issue 78. 2017. URL: http://www.defenceturkey.com/en/con...ttack-helicopter-production-2841#.W1aBRdJKiUk (Last Accessed: 13 July 2018)._​

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## Imran Khan

at least something is coming i am sick of these cobras now . whenever i land at multan airport i see those cobras .

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## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> at least something is coming i am sick of these cobras now . whenever i land at multan airport i see those cobras .


These Cobras that you are so sick of, are the reason you can take off, land and go to home peacefully. 

Talk about thanklessness !

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## Readerdefence

Imran Khan said:


> at least something is coming i am sick of these cobras now . whenever i land at multan airport i see those cobras .


Hi sir shift them towards Baluchistan side if you don’t mind will be more helpful for FC 
Thanks you

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## Imran Khan

Signalian said:


> These Cobras that you are so sick of, are the reason you can take off, land and go to home peacefully.
> 
> Talk about thanklessness !


thanks for their service now they can take rest


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## Fieldmarshal

Imran Khan said:


> thanks for their service now they can take rest


Sorry to disappoint u but they r being upgraded


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## HRK

Fieldmarshal said:


> Sorry to disappoint u but they r being upgraded


by whom .... ??
previously US shown concern even on the in-house installation of HUD on cobra ...


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## mingle

HRK said:


> by whom .... ??
> previously US shown concern even on the in-house installation of HUD on cobra ...


Turkey so they not going anywhere anytime soon

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## Rafi

The airframes are pretty tired from flying nonstop in the last few years, as replacement birds come online, a few of the newer ones will slog on with the older ones cannibalised to keep them flying.

But no upgrades too old by far.

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## Imran Khan

Fieldmarshal said:


> Sorry to disappoint u but they r being upgraded


na ker yaar khuda da wasta ayee


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## mingle

Rafi said:


> The airframes are pretty tired from flying nonstop in the last few years, as replacement birds come online, a few of the newer ones will slog on with the older ones cannibalised to keep them flying.
> 
> But no upgrades too old by far.


Rafi sb I read at other PDF by Haris Khan that PAA looking for turkish upgrades on AH1 cobras along with ATAK


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## Rafi

mingle said:


> Rafi sb I read at other PDF by Haris Khan that PAA looking for turkish upgrades on AH1 cobras along with ATAK



Maybe, but these birds have been ridden hard, not much life left in them.

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## araz

Rafi said:


> Maybe, but these birds have been ridden hard, not much life left in them.


I have always wonderd can we get newer air frames from Iran as they seem to build them?? Correct me if I am wrong.
A


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## xbat

araz said:


> I have always wonderd can we get newer air frames from Iran as they seem to build them?? Correct me if I am wrong.


they built about 10 frame under name of TOUFAN 6-7 years ago, but we never see them later, probably they got some engine and spares from US as a result of negotiations from other politic issues. hence they wanted to implement attack heli fleet with those parts. If they are able to make a new heli we would see them in every week.

dont forget North Korea is operating a US made heli fleet.

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## Rafi

araz said:


> I have always wonderd can we get newer air frames from Iran as they seem to build them?? Correct me if I am wrong.
> A



They have done well in keeping the old ones flying, but I doubt it.

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## Shabi1

If spares available and proper maintenance carried out a airframe in theory could be kept flying indefinitely. Eg US B-52s and CH-53s.
However it gets economically expensive since the manpower hours to do so is expensive. This is why tranche 1 EF2000s too expensive to maintain. But for PA it's inhiuse work. Because of the threat levels Cobras could be kept upgraded and in flying condition but used sparingly as alternatives become available.
As per my understanding at any given time PA keeps half of them in operation and remaining half in maintenance or reserve so that they are kept airworthy properly.

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## The Accountant

Shabi1 said:


> If spares available and proper maintenance carried out a airframe in theory could be kept flying indefinitely. Eg US B-52s and CH-53s.
> However it gets economically expensive since the manpower hours to do so is expensive. This is why tranche 1 EF2000s too expensive to maintain. But for PA it's inhiuse work. Because of the threat levels Cobras could be kept upgraded and in flying condition but used sparingly as alternatives become available.
> As per my understanding at any given time PA keeps half of them in operation and remaining half in maintenance or reserve so that they are kept airworthy properly.



No machine can be used in definitely ... even the non moving parts gets wear and tear due to matle fatigue

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> I have always wonderd can we get newer air frames from Iran as they seem to build them?? Correct me if I am wrong.
> A


Iran had an agreement with USA to build Cobra and its engine locally in the 70's similarly Iran also had a similar deal in regards to F-5's.

TOUFAN and TOUFAN II are Iranian Cobra upgrades.





https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/shabaviz-209.htm
https://theaviationist.com/2013/01/02/toufan-2/


Iran also has a light attack heli HESA Shahed 285
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/HESA_Shahed_285



xbat said:


> they built about 10 frame under name of TOUFAN 6-7 years ago, but we never see them later, probably they got some engine and spares from US as a result of negotiations from other politic issues. hence they wanted to implement attack heli fleet with those parts. If they are able to make a new heli we would see them in every week.
> 
> dont forget North Korea is operating a US made heli fleet.





Rafi said:


> They have done well in keeping the old ones flying, but I doubt it.

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## dBSPL

T / P-129, just a first sentence of the fabulous story which will write by Pakistan and Turkey ...

The future is brighter. And will be more deterrent for enemies.

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## cabatli_53

dBSPL said:


> T / P-129, just a first sentence of the fabulous story which will write by Pakistan and Turkey ...
> 
> The future is brighter. And will be more deterrent for enemies.



New page will be opened with Atak-2..

DIRCM Infrared counter measure system
Mildar MMW radar
30mm cannon with buried munition box
3 weapon station on each wing
360 degree electronic warfare counter measure systems (HEHSIS) buried into fuselage
16 Long range ATGM carriage capacity
Heavy armor protection (Cockpit protection against 12,7mm)
10 t MTOW (T-129 Atak : 5t MTOW)

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## mingle

Looks like apachi to me

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> New page will be opened with Atak-2..
> 
> DIRCM Infrared counter measure system
> Mildar MMW radar
> 30mm cannon with buried munition box
> 3 weapon station on each wing
> 360 degree electronic warfare counter measure systems (HEHSIS) buried into fuselage
> 16 Long range ATGM carriage capacity
> Heavy armor protection (Cockpit protection against 12,7mm)
> 10 t MTOW (T-129 Atak : 5t MTOW)


@Oscar ... if the AH-1Z falls through, then what are the chances of waiting for the ATAK-2 (10-ton)?

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar ... if the AH-1Z falls through, then what are the chances of waiting for the ATAK-2 (10-ton)?



PAA is interested, if it is anything like T129 it's got a good chance, the Turks alongside the PRC are trusted partners.

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## xbat

TEI president Dr.Aksit says first TS1400 turboshaft engine will be delivered in a year, he also says its power almost about 1500 hp. see at 3:45

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## nomi007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar ... if the AH-1Z falls through, then what are the chances of waiting for the ATAK-2 (10-ton)?


better to ask USA to give us Chinooks instead of Cobra


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar ... if the AH-1Z falls through, then what are the chances of waiting for the ATAK-2 (10-ton)?


More ATAKs will follow but the PA attack force will have lower force structure.

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## Imran Khan

ATAK should make 2 of Pakistani t129s now for training and hand over to PAA

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## Path-Finder

xbat said:


> TEI president Dr.Aksit says first TS1400 turboshaft engine will be delivered in a year, he also says its power almost about 1500 hp. see at 3:45



I hope the engine is successful in testing!

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> More ATAKs will follow but the PA attack force will have lower force structure.


I'm guessing it's a combination of limited funding to sustain a massive CAS element and, potentially, the PAF looking to use the Block-I/II for launching a Chinese equivalent to CBU-105 (I hope...)

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## Zulfiqar

Quwa said:


> I'm guessing it's a combination of limited funding to sustain a massive CAS element and, potentially, the PAF looking to use the Block-I/II for launching a Chinese equivalent to CBU-105 (I hope...)




Along with CBU eq and SADARM eqs Pakistan also needs to work with the turks and the chinese for a local version of brimstone. A squadron of K-8s/JF-17s modified to carry these will be a good supplement to our future gunships. A squadron with a payload of 6 brimstones each can easily counter a brigade or two of enemy's armor formation in multiple sorties although possibly with a greater attrition rate than a similar formation with CBU-105s.

Below image clarifies the size difference between maverick and a brimstone(the one lying on floor with yellow bands). Multiple brimstones can be carried on a single rack in place of a maverick.









Oscar said:


> More ATAKs will follow but the PA attack force will have lower force structure.



What do you mean? Lower Squadron strength relative to present in future?

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## bananarepublic

My opinion is that Pakistan should cooperate with south Africa in this field
Its an untapped market for military cooperation and furthermore engine technology can be gained from the south Africans 

They can literally build our helicopter industry


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## thunderkaka

*T-129 ATAK to replace the ageing AH-1F Cobra gunships*

*




*​
As Pakistan-Turkey relations continue to blossom, Pakistan will procure 30 T-129 ATAK gunship helicopters from Turkey. Pakistan and Turkey signed the deal of the T-129 ATAK helicopters on Friday after the extensive trials of the attack helicopters concluded in Pakistan. As per initial estimates, the deal between Ankara and Islamabad is being described as being worth $1.5 billion.

The deal is one of the largest single defence export deal ever made by Turkey. T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship is a development of Italian Agusta A 129 Mangusta and is equipped with high and hot capabilities.

T-129 attack helicopters will replace the ageing fleet of AH-1F Cobra gunships which are currently a part of the Pakistani defence forces. The AH-1F Cobra fleet is now worn out and is not very capable of scaling higher altitudes. The twin turboshaft engines of the T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship is the highlight feature that impressed Pakistan the most.

T-129 attack helicopters are equipped with Turkish sensors and weaponry along with highly powerful engines. T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship was extensively tested in Pakistan by the Pakistan Army in the summer of 2016 and it highly impressed the defence forces of Pakistan. 3 T-129 ATAK helicopter gunships even participated in the Pakistan Pride Day Parade on March 23 and this includes first hinted at Pakistan’s plans of procuring the T-129 ATAK helicopter gunships from Turkey.

China too sent three of its CAIC Z-10 helicopters to Pakistan for trials which were later returned to China. It seemed like the CAIC Z-10 gunship helicopters did not please the Pakistan Army much. But the T-129 ATAK helicopters surely did and they would soon be seen as a part of Pakistan’s military. As reported by the Turkish media, this deal between Pakistan and Turkey will also include ammunition, logistics, spare parts and training.

https://eurasiantimes.com/pakistan-soon-acquire-30-t-129-helicopter-gunships-turkey/

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

thunderkaka said:


> *T-129 ATAK to replace the ageing AH-1F Cobra gunships*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *​
> As Pakistan-Turkey relations continue to blossom, Pakistan will procure 30 T-129 ATAK gunship helicopters from Turkey. Pakistan and Turkey signed the deal of the T-129 ATAK helicopters on Friday after the extensive trials of the attack helicopters concluded in Pakistan. As per initial estimates, the deal between Ankara and Islamabad is being described as being worth $1.5 billion.
> 
> The deal is one of the largest single defence export deal ever made by Turkey. T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship is a development of Italian Agusta A 129 Mangusta and is equipped with high and hot capabilities.
> 
> T-129 attack helicopters will replace the ageing fleet of AH-1F Cobra gunships which are currently a part of the Pakistani defence forces. The AH-1F Cobra fleet is now worn out and is not very capable of scaling higher altitudes. The twin turboshaft engines of the T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship is the highlight feature that impressed Pakistan the most.
> 
> T-129 attack helicopters are equipped with Turkish sensors and weaponry along with highly powerful engines. T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship was extensively tested in Pakistan by the Pakistan Army in the summer of 2016 and it highly impressed the defence forces of Pakistan. 3 T-129 ATAK helicopter gunships even participated in the Pakistan Pride Day Parade on March 23 and this includes first hinted at Pakistan’s plans of procuring the T-129 ATAK helicopter gunships from Turkey.
> 
> China too sent three of its CAIC Z-10 helicopters to Pakistan for trials which were later returned to China. It seemed like the CAIC Z-10 gunship helicopters did not please the Pakistan Army much. But the T-129 ATAK helicopters surely did and they would soon be seen as a part of Pakistan’s military. As reported by the Turkish media, this deal between Pakistan and Turkey will also include ammunition, logistics, spare parts and training.
> 
> https://eurasiantimes.com/pakistan-soon-acquire-30-t-129-helicopter-gunships-turkey/




14 July 2018 shared a post ?


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## TOPGUN

cabatli_53 said:


> New page will be opened with Atak-2..
> 
> DIRCM Infrared counter measure system
> Mildar MMW radar
> 30mm cannon with buried munition box
> 3 weapon station on each wing
> 360 degree electronic warfare counter measure systems (HEHSIS) buried into fuselage
> 16 Long range ATGM carriage capacity
> Heavy armor protection (Cockpit protection against 12,7mm)
> 10 t MTOW (T-129 Atak : 5t MTOW)



So PA will buy these as well ?


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## Signalian

thunderkaka said:


> The AH-1F Cobra fleet is now worn out and is not very capable of scaling higher altitudes. The twin turboshaft engines of the T-129 ATAK helicopter gunship is the highlight feature that impressed Pakistan the most.


AH-1F is still active in modern armies currently. The major issue is the single engine scaling high altitudes which twin engines of T-129 as well as AH-1Z can scale. When withdrawn from WOT, AH-1F is a capable Anti Tank Gunship can be effectively used in plains and deserts against enemy armor.



TOPGUN said:


> So PA will buy these as well ?


That's the components of ATAK II. It will be interesting if an upgrade is possible for the ones that PAA buys.

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## mingle

I like ATAK 2 looks like Apachi twin I feel would be a great addition against armour

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## Philip the Arab

Rooivalk MK II anyone? Only F*cking 12 were built, that number is trash.


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## jupiter2007

Philip the Arab said:


> Rooivalk MK II anyone? Only F*cking 12 were built, that number is trash.



We should have bought the platform with technology but our General wanted American goods because their wives can do free shopping in America and their children can go to college for Free.

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> AH-1F is still active in modern armies currently. The major issue is the single engine scaling high altitudes which twin engines of T-129 as well as AH-1Z can scale. When withdrawn from WOT, AH-1F is a capable Anti Tank Gunship can be effectively used in plains and deserts against enemy armor.



Both these statements are true. PA Cobras are pretty worn out, and PA will still be using them against Indian armor in any future conflict to good effect. 
The reason is, using an older piece of equipment alongside something a two generations ahead, also effectively increases the former's capability and lethality as the newer platforms act as force multipliers. Pakistan will use both the ATAK and Cobras concurrently and with some very minor upgrades to the avionics of the AH-1Fs (akin to what Jordan is doing for eg) will keep them relevant for some years to come.

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## xbat

Signalian said:


> When withdrawn from WOT, AH-1F is a capable Anti Tank Gunship can be effectively used in plains and deserts against enemy armor.


what missile can AH1F fire other than TOW? it is a duck while its firing a tow for 20 seconds, todays war environment is very different than 20 years ago. enemy would shot you down in seconds with manpads.

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## Cuirassier

Can fire Baktar Shikan. Also notable for it's ability to hover very close to the ground.


xbat said:


> what missile can AH1F fire other than TOW? it is a duck while its firing a tow for 20 seconds, todays war environment is very different than 20 years ago. enemy would shot you down in seconds with manpads.


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## Signalian

xbat said:


> what missile can AH1F fire other than TOW? it is a duck while its firing a tow for 20 seconds, todays war environment is very different than 20 years ago. enemy would shot you down in seconds with manpads.


If you are playing a video game, yes.

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## xbat

TF141 said:


> Can fire Baktar Shikan. Also notable for it's ability to hover very close to the ground.


so you'r gonna die in short time, Turkey was dire to need just a couple super cobra for years, US couldnt provide us for some reasons, we only could get 3 super cobra in 2012 just before ATAKs went serial production. We know how important to have a real gunship, when your soldiers need, you have to provide real CAS otherwise casualties are inevitable.

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## Army research

Signalian said:


> If you are playing a video game, yes.


Yeah , in war thunder the tunguska with AHEAD shreds ah1z's , they're usually hidden and use their team mates light tanks to go fast in the open, the helicopter spots and comes closers , tunguska shreds it while it's entire focus is on trying to get a lock on a zig zagging 72kmh tiny tank


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## Keysersoze

xbat said:


> what missile can AH1F fire other than TOW? it is a duck while its firing a tow for 20 seconds, todays war environment is very different than 20 years ago. enemy would shot you down in seconds with manpads.


Even the most skilled manpad operator would take longer to set up..A volley of TOWs would give any tank column a significant emotional event.


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## xbat

Keysersoze said:


> Even the most skilled manpad operator would take longer to set up..A volley of TOWs would give any tank column a significant emotional event.


oh! come on there is a device called "radio".


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## Philip the Arab

Keysersoze said:


> Even the most skilled manpad operator would take longer to set up..A volley of TOWs would give any tank column a significant emotional event.


You can actually shot down attack helicopters with TOW missiles and other ATGMs if you are skilled enough and the helicopter is hovering or flying slow.


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## Keysersoze

xbat said:


> oh! come on there is a device called "radio".


Yes there is. Radios also take time to operate and you have to know what direction the enemy is coming from etc etc. The flight time is less than 20 seconds....
Any attack would in be salvos of 3 or 4 and the helicopters would be 3 or 4 km away so likelihood is you'll not hear about the first missile till it hit...Boom!

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## khanasifm

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...could-suffer-from-the-s-400-deal-with-russia/


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## The Eagle

> Additionally, the U.S. may disrupt Turkey’s current and future systems export efforts, including those for the T129 attack helicopter, built by TAI under license from the Italian-British firm AgustaWestland. The T129, based on its predecessor, the A129 Mangusta, is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter.
> 
> The T129 is powered by two LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines. Each engine can produce 1,014 kilowatts of power. The T800-4A is an export version of the CTS800 engine. LHTEC, which makes the engine, is a joint venture between the American company Honeywell and the British firm Rolls-Royce.
> 
> Last year Turkey signed a $1.5 billion deal with Pakistan for the sale of 30 T129s. Turkey needs U.S. export licenses to make the T129 deliveries to Pakistan — or any other foreign buyer. In December, the Philippine government selected the T129 for military use, and talks are ongoing for the sale of eight helos.



@cabatli_53 what's the other side of the story? Any alternate to this?


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## Philip the Arab

The Eagle said:


> @cabatli_53 what's the other side of the story? Any alternate to this?


Do you know if Pakistan could do a JV with South Africa for a Rooivalk Mk2? No American sub-systems or engine so you can be that you can get the planes and in the numbers you want. Only thing that would be bad is you might need to invest a lot into it. In late 2016, Denel stated that it was conducting a series of talks with various nations on the Rooivalk Mk 2, including Egypt, Brazil, Nigeria, Poland and India.


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## xbat

Rooivalk uses french rotor, engine and some subsystems , produced in very low number, never faced with real enemy so not combat proven, never exported, look at the sensor suit! looks old fashioned . the gimbal looks like a toy.


----------



## Philip the Arab

xbat said:


> Rooivalk uses french rotor, engine and some subsystems , produced in very low number, never faced with real enemy so not combat proven, never exported, look at the sensor suit! looks old fashioned . the gimbal looks like a toy.


Again Mk 2 will be upgraded and the engine isn't a problem. French won't care about exports to Pakistan, hell have you seen them care about the Saudis? You are doing false propaganda towards the Rooivalk because you have a bias and even @Bilal Khan (Quwa) agrees that Pakistan could do it. https://quwa.org/2018/09/04/for-pakistan-the-denel-rooivalk-mk2-is-a-credible-contingency-option-2/


----------



## xbat

what is exactly my false propaganda here , please let me know.


----------



## Philip the Arab

xbat said:


> what is exactly my false propaganda here , please let me know.


South Africa had a hard time after the Apartheid, and were behind in developing the Rooivalk. You don't know the history of Denel and therefor don't understand what went through the Rooivalk design and development period. An MK 2 variant would be easy to develop with the only newer sub-systems needed and has *commonality* with the parts from the SA 330 Puma in Pakistani service which the T129 does not have whatsoever. Pakistan will also get TOT in some form which with the T129 is not available.


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## xbat

so what i said above all correct and not propaganda, thx for clarification.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Philip the Arab said:


> Do you know if Pakistan could do a JV with South Africa for a Rooivalk Mk2? No American sub-systems or engine so you can be that you can get the planes and in the numbers you want. Only thing that would be bad is you might need to invest a lot into it. In late 2016, Denel stated that it was conducting a series of talks with various nations on the Rooivalk Mk 2, including Egypt, Brazil, Nigeria, Poland and India.


Pakistan may opt for Z-10 then. France may stop the deal considering India


----------



## Philip the Arab

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Pakistan may opt for Z-10 then. France may stop the deal considering India


I think South Africa could use different sub-systems considering Paramount Group upgraded Mi-17s, and Mi-24s with indigenous sub-systems back in the mid 2000s. You have to remember that South Africa has a lot of highly educated, and knowledgeable engineers that can usually find solutions in the defense industry and that they are really, really good at reverse engineering which could be done with the engine. Does Pakistan want 30 helicopters, or 100? With a third partner who is cash-strapped such as Saudi Arabia or the UAE this would be feasible.

I quote " While there were problems in securing the core components from Eurocopter for export purposes in the past (which had pushed its Tiger platform in the same markets Denel was pursuing with the Rooivalk), Denel seems to be *making progress* with Eurocopter’s successor Airbus Helicopters on this front."

Denel needs at least commitment order of 70 Rooivalk Mk2s before it starts. This would replace all the Cobras, and supplement the T129 if that ever goes through. This could also open up cooperation with Denel even further for armored vehicles, missiles, etc.


----------



## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Philip the Arab said:


> I think South Africa could use different sub-systems considering Paramount Group upgraded Mi-17s, and Mi-24s with indigenous sub-systems back in the mid 2000s. You have to remember that South Africa has a lot of highly educated, and knowledgeable engineers that can usually find solutions in the defense industry and that they are really, really good at reverse engineering which could be done with the engine. Does Pakistan want 30 helicopters, or 100? With a third partner who is cash-strapped such as Saudi Arabia or the UAE this would be feasible.
> 
> I quote " While there were problems in securing the core components from Eurocopter for export purposes in the past (which had pushed its Tiger platform in the same markets Denel was pursuing with the Rooivalk), Denel seems to be *making progress* with Eurocopter’s successor Airbus Helicopters on this front."
> 
> Denel needs at least commitment order of 70 Rooivalk Mk2s before it starts. This would replace all the Cobras, and supplement the T129 if that ever goes through. This could also open up cooperation with Denel even further for armored vehicles, missiles, etc.



Denel Rooivalk uses French infrastructure in many sub-systems with its engine. What is the status of Pakistan with France? I don't have much information


----------



## M.AsfandYar

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Denel Rooivalk uses French infrastructure in many sub-systems with its engine. What is the status of Pakistan with France? I don't have much information


Nothing likely to come from there for a very very long time. Has been that way more than 15 years now.


----------



## Philip the Arab

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Denel Rooivalk uses French infrastructure in many sub-systems with its engine. What is the status of Pakistan with France? I don't have much information


That could be a problem I think with India and the Rafale, but Pakistan and France have fairly good ties and as I said before if France doesn't allow South Africa and Pakistan to use their engine than I'm sure the South Africans could reverse engineer it. You have to consider that Pakistan could also receive TOT for Mokopa, and Ingwe, as well as the Umkhonto for SAM and such while expanding defense ties with South Africa.

Full load out with 8 Mokopas, or 8 Ingwes, 70mm rocket, 20mm gun. Remember the Ingwe or the Mokopa can easily take out Indian tanks.





I'm going off-topic but I would like to add this- The Umkhonto which could also be produced in Pakistan if certain deals are made. Personally I think there are more opportunities with South Africa that are already developed than Turkey.











*Type* Surface-to-air missile
*Place of origin* South Africa
*Service history
Used by* South Africa, Finland
*Production history
Manufacturer* Denel Dynamics
*Specifications
Mass* 130 kg (290 lb)[1]
*Length* 3.32 m (10.9 ft)[1]
*Diameter* 180 mm (7.1 in)[1]
*Warhead* 23 kg (51 lb)[1]
*Wingspan* 500 mm (20 in)[1]
*Operational
range*
20 km (12 mi)(Umkhonto-IR)
30 km (19 mi) (Umkhonto-ER-IR)
60 km (37 mi)(Umkhonto-R)[2]
*Flight altitude* 8 km (5.0 mi)(Umkhonto-IR)
12 km (7.5 mi) (Umkhonto-ER-IR)
15 km (9.3 mi)(Umkhonto-R)
*Speed* *Mach 2[1]
Guidance
system*
All-aspect infra-red, command update fire and forget
*Launch
platform*
Naval Vertical launch system, Ground-based Launcher System



M.AsfandYar said:


> Nothing likely to come from there for a very very long time. Has been that way more than 15 years now.


In late 2016, Denel stated that it was conducting a series of talks with various nations on the Rooivalk Mk 2, including Egypt, Brazil, Nigeria, Poland and India. You were saying?

https://www.tacticalreport.com/view...e-industry-of-Rooivalk-combat-helicopter/5825

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## MIRauf

I am surprised that UAE or KSA hasn't gotten involved with Rooivalk MK2, they have boat load of $ and can easily fund the project just for kicks and giggles. If it comes out great they could easily make $ back and more, if not then its not a major loss for them.

PA with its limited resources will look for complete product as the number needed are relatively low ( 30+ ) units, the chances for it to get involve and take risk in project of the type are very low to none.


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## M.AsfandYar

Philip the Arab said:


> That could be a problem I think with India and the Rafale, but Pakistan and France have fairly good ties and as I said before if France doesn't allow South Africa and Pakistan to use their engine than I'm sure the South Africans could reverse engineer it. You have to consider that Pakistan could also receive TOT for Mokopa, and Ingwe, as well as the Umkhonto for SAM and such while expanding defense ties with South Africa.
> 
> Full load out with 8 Mokopas, or 8 Ingwes, 70mm rocket, 20mm gun. Remember the Ingwe or the Mokopa can easily take out Indian tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going off-topic but I would like to add this- The Umkhonto which could also be produced in Pakistan if certain deals are made. Personally I think there are more opportunities with South Africa that are already developed than Turkey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Type* Surface-to-air missile
> *Place of origin* South Africa
> *Service history
> Used by* South Africa, Finland
> *Production history
> Manufacturer* Denel Dynamics
> *Specifications
> Mass* 130 kg (290 lb)[1]
> *Length* 3.32 m (10.9 ft)[1]
> *Diameter* 180 mm (7.1 in)[1]
> *Warhead* 23 kg (51 lb)[1]
> *Wingspan* 500 mm (20 in)[1]
> *Operational
> range*
> 20 km (12 mi)(Umkhonto-IR)
> 30 km (19 mi) (Umkhonto-ER-IR)
> 60 km (37 mi)(Umkhonto-R)[2]
> *Flight altitude* 8 km (5.0 mi)(Umkhonto-IR)
> 12 km (7.5 mi) (Umkhonto-ER-IR)
> 15 km (9.3 mi)(Umkhonto-R)
> *Speed* *Mach 2[1]
> Guidance
> system*
> All-aspect infra-red, command update fire and forget
> *Launch
> platform*
> Naval Vertical launch system, Ground-based Launcher System
> 
> 
> In late 2016, Denel stated that it was conducting a series of talks with various nations on the Rooivalk Mk 2, including Egypt, Brazil, Nigeria, Poland and India. You were saying?
> 
> https://www.tacticalreport.com/view...e-industry-of-Rooivalk-combat-helicopter/5825


I was saying France is unlikely to sell anything including through third party to Pakistan and Pakistan is unable to buy anything from France on the off chance that it does for foreseeable future.
Also any Rooivalk is unlikely to make it to Pakistan. That ship has long sailed.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Philip the Arab said:


> *Type* Surface-to-air missile
> *Place of origin* South Africa
> *Service history
> Used by* South Africa, Finland
> *Production history
> Manufacturer* Denel Dynamics
> *Specifications
> Mass* 130 kg (290 lb)[1]
> *Length* 3.32 m (10.9 ft)[1]
> *Diameter* 180 mm (7.1 in)[1]
> *Warhead* 23 kg (51 lb)[1]
> *Wingspan* 500 mm (20 in)[1]
> *Operational
> range*
> 20 km (12 mi)(Umkhonto-IR)
> 30 km (19 mi) (Umkhonto-ER-IR)
> 60 km (37 mi)(Umkhonto-R)[2]
> *Flight altitude* 8 km (5.0 mi)(Umkhonto-IR)
> 12 km (7.5 mi) (Umkhonto-ER-IR)
> 15 km (9.3 mi)(Umkhonto-R)
> *Speed* *Mach 2[1]
> Guidance
> system*
> All-aspect infra-red, command update fire and forget
> *Launch
> platform*
> Naval Vertical launch system, Ground-based Launcher System



The roketsan HISAR family can be offered in response to UMKHONTO. I don't think there's a lot of difference between us. Also I don't think that Pakistan will choose a system other than China's solution for Air Defense System.


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## Philip the Arab

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> The roketsan HISAR family can be offered in response to UMKHONTO. I don't think there's a lot of difference between us.


Umkhonto is more tested and has been around longer, TOT would probably not be offered to Pakistan while South Africa is usually more lenient because Denel is in a tough situation now.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Philip the Arab said:


> Umkhonto is more tested and has been around longer, TOT would probably not be offered to Pakistan while South Africa is usually more lenient because Denel is in a tough situation now.



You answer the moment I edit my answer


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## Philip the Arab

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> You answer the moment I edit my answer


I'm willing to bet that South African systems are better than China's. China and Russia tend to brag about their systems while South Africa generally doesn't and also have Israeli help for missiles and knowing Israel they have some of the best SAM systems in the world.


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## cabatli_53

The Eagle said:


> @cabatli_53 what's the other side of the story? Any alternate to this?



Bro, You know Those turboshaft engines are being manufactured by a few countries and All other states are dependent on those states to make their helicopters fly so Even if you don’t buy from US, You should buy from Europe which is the same sh@t in terms of issue sanctions and restrictions for third parties so Domestic development of such core technologies are vital but It takes time. National turboshaft engine needs min 2-3 years more to get matured. TEI foreseens around 12-14 years to develop 27000lb turbofan engine for TF-X. We have to bow our heads to a few elites until we reach our self-sufficiency. That is the painful story for all of us because Eastern block equivalents are not advanced enough to cope with Western quality standarts yet. Russian helicopters are advanced indeed but they have a strange tradition to make a defense deal. We will see the further development which is going to shape the export deals of Turkey. If crisis between Turkey and US get deeper, then We have to face a sanction and this will certainly block some ezport deals containing US engines. Turkish MoND is in US now. They are trying to solve the problems with US counterparts and we will see the results.

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## The Eagle

Indeed, we know how sanctions hurts especially when you aren't domestically self-sufficient/reliant. 



cabatli_53 said:


> Russian helicopters are advanced indeed but they have a strange tradition to make a defense deal.



Interesting mention but will ask later about this based upon what I understand from your comment. Hopefully the matter will be resolved otherwise, there will be another supplier and am sure the alternate will be available. Any update in this regard/Turkey US talks will be appreciated.

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## Imran Khan

when i will see first paksitan t129 before my death or after ?


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## PakShaheen79

Imran Khan said:


> when i will see first paksitan t129 before my death or after ?



Imran Bhai pata karwao k deal hui v c ... pata laggy k gallan c giyan!

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## cabatli_53

The Eagle said:


> Indeed, we know how sanctions hurts especially when you aren't domestically self-sufficient/reliant.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting mention but will ask later about this based upon what I understand from your comment. Hopefully the matter will be resolved otherwise, there will be another supplier and am sure the alternate will be available. Any update in this regard/Turkey US talks will be appreciated.




Russian after-sale service is poor. Turkey and some other states using Russian products complain about it. Besides, Similar to Western states, Russian defense contracts should serve for politic benefits in foreign policy so If they see a risk for future, They will not sacrifice their benefits for the sake of other states. Iran is the victim of this policy. Anyway, Russia is an alternative indeed but US keep threatening anybody who is willing to make a big defense contract with Russia. Turkey like states who is connected into West with all industrial infrastructure, is beimg effected from likely sanctions ao Turkey should watch the steps carefully. We need realistic policies instead of emotional one to deal with West. Otherwise, they have many instruments to harm our mid term benefits. I believe Turkey offered a new solution to station S-400 batteries into the places where Turkish F35 would never fly in that zone. If Turkish officials convince US for an alternative solution, I believe Everything will be OK in a short time. 

Turkiah defense industry decision mechanism called SSIK have been gathered without waiting return of MoND from US. I believe SSIK delegation needed to take some quick decisions regarding ongoing programs. In follıwing days, We will reach some details to share.

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## monitor

Imran Khan said:


> when i will see first paksitan t129 before my death or after ?



As you said before don't drink alcohol anymore its injurious to health , so you will live longer and hopefully see T-129 in Pakistani color even Atak-2 too.

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## Pakistani Aircraft

monitor said:


> As you said before don't drink alcohol anymore its injurious to health , so you will live longer and hopefully see T-129 in Pakistani color even Atak-2 too.



He asked "when". What's the date parameter associated with "hopefully"?


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## nomi007

*Safran Arrano*
is best alternative option


----------



## Blue Marlin

@cabatli_53 will pakistan still get the LHTEC T800, or will they get a foreign engine like the mtr390?

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## Pakhtoon yum

Is this dead?


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## Flight of falcon

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Is this dead?


No it’s not. First helicopter is expected in 2020 and Turks will deliver. No worries.

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## thunderkaka

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Why ?



*Pakistan offers 52 Super Mushak aircraft to Turkey*

Pakistan has offered 52 Super Mushak Aircraft to Turkey under the Pak-Turk Strategic Economic Framework (SEF).

According to sources, the prime minister recently approved the action plan for Pak-Turk Strategic Economic Framework (SEF) in which the Pakistani side has sought Turkish cooperation in various sectors of the economy.

As per details, cooperation in defence production includes delivery of 30 attack helicopters to Pakistan Army, delivery of 52 Super Mushak to Turkey, Turkish collaboration with Pak defence production establishment for cooperation in the fields of avionics, IT communications, weapons, ammunition, security vehicles and vessels.

Pakistan has also requested Turkey to build four ships for Pakistan Navy – two in Turkey and two in Pakistan.

https://profit.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/04/11/pakistan-offers-52-super-mushak-to-turkey/

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## Pakhtoon yum

Flight of falcon said:


> No it’s not. First helicopter is expected in 2020 and Turks will deliver. No worries.


Good to hear. I hope we contribute and jointly develop the new halo too. That would be a lot of experience and knowledge gained by kamra

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## Dazzler

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125303193011929088

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

We're fooling ourselves. TAI spent more than $ 3 billion on intellectual and property certification and technology consulting for the T129, and body technology for the T625 and other future helicopters. Pakistan 's participation in the new helicopter program will be of no use. For licensed production, there is no need for such fanfare.


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## CAN_TR

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> We're fooling ourselves. TAI spent more than $ 3 billion on intellectual and property certification and technology consulting for the T129, and body technology for the T625 and other future helicopters. Pakistan 's participation in the new helicopter program will be of no use. For licensed production, there is no need for such fanfare.



What TAI gained from it is worth a lot more... knowledge.

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## MastanKhan

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> We're fooling ourselves. TAI spent more than $ 3 billion on intellectual and property certification and technology consulting for the T129, and body technology for the T625 and other future helicopters. Pakistan 's participation in the new helicopter program will be of no use. For licensed production, there is no need for such fanfare.



Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. TAI knows better---there is a reason for pakistan's participation---.

Money in itself is nothing---ask the chinese J10 team that built the J10A---till Paf got involved---it became a different aircraft afterwards---and had far reaching effects on other fighter aircraft programs---.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Welcome to the forum---. TAI knows better---there is a reason for pakistan's participation---.
> 
> Money in itself is nothing---ask the chinese J10 team that built the J10A---till Paf got involved---it became a different aircraft afterwards---and had far reaching effects on other fighter aircraft programs---.



I don't think the problem is Pakistan's ability anyway. Even for TAI FX, which has not fully started, TAI will want to see Pakistan with it. But I don't think TAI will only give the hull ownership rights that it spent billions of dollars to acquire for Atak 2 for partnership in a single helicopter. Unlike other users in the forum, I don't like to sell dream because it's more time

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## MastanKhan

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I don't think the problem is Pakistan's ability anyway. Even for TAI FX, which has not fully started, TAI will want to see Pakistan with it. But I don't think TAI will only give the hull ownership rights that it spent billions of dollars to acquire for Atak 2 for partnership in a single helicopter. Unlike other users in the forum, I don't like to sell dream because it's more time



Hi,

This last part is agreeable---.

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## umair86

Engines are still issue


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## TRNDSTTR

Do we really need electronic defense systems on our helicopters made by Aselsan? Those guys are soft and cuddly with NATO so I'm not sure. The Chinese CAIC Z-10 is a pretty solid option and so is the Eurocopter. All tried and tested.


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## blain2

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> We're fooling ourselves. TAI spent more than $ 3 billion on intellectual and property certification and technology consulting for the T129, and body technology for the T625 and other future helicopters. Pakistan 's participation in the new helicopter program will be of no use. For licensed production, there is no need for such fanfare.


Licensed production is something to herald with fanfare. You have to look at where the local industry is. We are at point zero on rotary platform development. Starting off with just licensed production (or even assembly) is a massive step on to a new vector for the aerospace industry in Pakistan. Let's not take anything for granted.

The Turks have been an invaluable friend to us on very many fronts. May God bless them always! My one hope for them is that they manage the F-35 program very deftly with the Americans and stay in it along with their S-400 induction. The former will be a massive boon for the Turkish aviation industry.

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## xbat

bad news for ATAK engine , according to Cumhuriyet newspaper , us didnt approved for sale

http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/turkiye/1489255/ATAK_a_motor_engeli.html


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## python-000

xbat said:


> bad news for ATAK engine , according to Cumhuriyet newspaper , us didnt approved for sale
> 
> http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/turkiye/1489255/ATAK_a_motor_engeli.html


So its mean Pakistan Atak story is over...


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## xbat

may be only postponed


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## Cool_Soldier

If it is true, sad to hear but I am still hoping way will come out and it will finally be delivered to Pakistan.


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## Trango Towers

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> We're fooling ourselves. TAI spent more than $ 3 billion on intellectual and property certification and technology consulting for the T129, and body technology for the T625 and other future helicopters. Pakistan 's participation in the new helicopter program will be of no use. For licensed production, there is no need for such fanfare.


Sorry do share your expertise with us! 
Your background is ?


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## Quwa

python-000 said:


> So its mean Pakistan Atak story is over...


If it makes you feel any better, Pakistan's economic issues would have probably delayed this deal anyways.

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## nomi007

python-000 said:


> So its mean Pakistan Atak story is over...


Turkey has submitted a request to the US-British co-production engines. However, due to the crisis did not respond positively to demand ATAK exports became uncertain.






Turkey's long-standing barriers to vaccination engine for the export of works that appeared on Attack helicopters for export. Sales uncertainty continues due to the US-UK co-production engine of ATAK.

President Tayyip Erdogan's statements at a meeting with the chief executive of newspapers and televisions the previous day, the US-UK co-production engine used in the ATAK helicopter was requested from the British Rolls Royce'tan, but this request was not responded positively.

On July 13, 2018, the Presidency of Defense Industry reached an agreement to sell 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. Agreement that the total amount of exports made during the period was 1.5 billion dollars and was noted to be carried out so that the largest defense industry exports at a time in the history of Turkey. The Philippines also stated that the interest in the ATAK helicopter, in this context, Defense Industry Cooperation between the Philippines and Turkey Memorandum of Understanding was signed.

*Seeking an alternative* 
At that time, it was reported that the first ATAK helicopter would be delivered to Pakistan in 2019, but the engine problem, one of the most important parts of the helicopter, appeared on the calendar. Turkish Aerospace Industry Inc. (TUSAŞ / TAI), ATAK helicopter uses CTS800 type engine produced by Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between American Honeywell and British Rolls Royce. Since this engine is used in the helicopter, the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) needs permission to export it to another country. The Pentagon has not yet issued this permit. This permission is not expected to be issued in the short term at a time of threat from the United States due to S-400 missiles received from Russia.

At the end of last year it had taken place in the press news that the direction of the LHTEC engine to look for alternatives for the ATAK France, Poland and Turkey. However, Pakistan requires a re-test flight in the Himalayas if an ATAK helicopter uses engines from a country other than the US. 
The first test of the turbocharger engine designed by TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii (TEI) as domestic helicopter engine was performed at the end of last year. Domestic helicopter engine to come to the mass production stage and can be used in the ATAK helicopter can be realized in the long term. 
Turkey is currently in the Land Forces Command 41, a total of 47, including 6 ATTACK helikoper the Gendarmerie General Command was delivered.



nomi007 said:


> Turkey has submitted a request to the US-British co-production engines. However, due to the crisis did not respond positively to demand ATAK exports became uncertain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey's long-standing barriers to vaccination engine for the export of works that appeared on Attack helicopters for export. Sales uncertainty continues due to the US-UK co-production engine of ATAK.
> 
> President Tayyip Erdogan's statements at a meeting with the chief executive of newspapers and televisions the previous day, the US-UK co-production engine used in the ATAK helicopter was requested from the British Rolls Royce'tan, but this request was not responded positively.
> 
> On July 13, 2018, the Presidency of Defense Industry reached an agreement to sell 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. Agreement that the total amount of exports made during the period was 1.5 billion dollars and was noted to be carried out so that the largest defense industry exports at a time in the history of Turkey. The Philippines also stated that the interest in the ATAK helicopter, in this context, Defense Industry Cooperation between the Philippines and Turkey Memorandum of Understanding was signed.
> 
> *Seeking an alternative*
> At that time, it was reported that the first ATAK helicopter would be delivered to Pakistan in 2019, but the engine problem, one of the most important parts of the helicopter, appeared on the calendar. Turkish Aerospace Industry Inc. (TUSAŞ / TAI), ATAK helicopter uses CTS800 type engine produced by Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between American Honeywell and British Rolls Royce. Since this engine is used in the helicopter, the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) needs permission to export it to another country. The Pentagon has not yet issued this permit. This permission is not expected to be issued in the short term at a time of threat from the United States due to S-400 missiles received from Russia.
> 
> At the end of last year it had taken place in the press news that the direction of the LHTEC engine to look for alternatives for the ATAK France, Poland and Turkey. However, Pakistan requires a re-test flight in the Himalayas if an ATAK helicopter uses engines from a country other than the US.
> The first test of the turbocharger engine designed by TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii (TEI) as domestic helicopter engine was performed at the end of last year. Domestic helicopter engine to come to the mass production stage and can be used in the ATAK helicopter can be realized in the long term.
> Turkey is currently in the Land Forces Command 41, a total of 47, including 6 ATTACK helikoper the Gendarmerie General Command was delivered.


Best alternative is AH-1Z
USA will never block sale if we pay them

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Trango Towers said:


> Sorry do share your expertise with us!
> Your background is ?



You like it or not. The only agreement between the two countries, which is actually 2 - 3 targeting pods and a few marine electronics products, does not grant license rights to more than $ 3 billion spent on another. While there is Pakistan's 2700-km range missiles, Turkey is still only at the tactical level why this is also the reason why. Someone pampers someone in this forum every day, but there is nothing actually.

How ridiculous is it to get help from Turkey for developing Shaheen 3 top model and share the ownership rights, Atak 2, and T625 etc. helicopters, develop together with Pakistan and share the ownership rights, At least it's so ridiculous. It is a waste of unnecessary money for the main country.

As I said before, I'm not one of the audience who likes to deceiving himself on this forum.

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## mingle

If US blocks engines it means they will offer US more zulus 200% they always use these tricks


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## BL33D

https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol
The sale of Turkish-made T129 ATAK helicopter gunships to Pakistan has hit a stumbling block as no engines have been found for the gunships after the United States failed to issue the permit required for their delivery, communist news site SoL reported on Wednesday.

Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships on July 13, 2018. The delivery date of the first helicopter was pushed back after the U.S. Department of Defence last year refused to issue the Turkish company with an export license for the delivery of the gunships’ CTS800 engines.

Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers of the engine, according to Hürriyet newspaper. 

Meanwhile, 41 ATAK helicopters have been delivered to the Turkish Land Forces Command and six to the Gendarmerie General Command, SoL said.

The deal between Ankara and Islamabad sees for the delivery of 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. Pakistan’s current AH-1F Cobra gunships lack the capability to perform adequately over the higher altitudes of the Hindu Kush mountain range, separating Afghanistan and Pakistan, according to the country’s officials.

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## Nein

Once I heard the T129's had American engines I knew one day something bad was going to happen especially with Americans.

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## BL33D

Nein said:


> Once I heard the T129's had American engines I knew one day something bad was going to happen especially with Americans.


S-400 hasnt gone well with the US, they will do anything to hurt turkey now, they already took a $500 million loss by kicking turkey out of F-35. Bcoz after Turkey and India, other countries are lining up. US can do only so much to India as it is not a NATO member. So turkey is the scapegoat. Lets see how it unfolds. I think they will find replacement engines if they didnt make their chasis to only fit the american engines. Hope they have some wiggle room.


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## cloud4000

All the result of Turkey's decision to acquire S-400 from Russia. US is already denying delivery of F-35, now it's refusing to issue licenses for helicopter engines. It's not going to end here. There's more to come.


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## Max

i already knew these deals will not realize till Pakistan improve its relations with US, No news about covertee project either.

PM IK should ask Trump to release our Cobra's and parts for Turkish deals. He will meet trump on 22 but i don't know whether this is even among his main concerns. lol


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## Imran Khan

in fact its good news for pakistan too we have stopped buying US weapons since 5 years and we don't want any US sh1t anymore now . turkey should find alternative engine .



Max said:


> i already knew these deals will not realize till Pakistan improve its relations with US, No news about covertee project either.
> 
> PM IK should ask Trump to release our Cobra's and parts for Turkish deals.


why pay money and be scared and begg ? why not just go china and buy z-10 simply ?.

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## Max

Imran Khan said:


> why pay money and be scared and begg ? why not just go china and buy z-10 simply ?.



PDF think Chinese Helis lack. I would rather Prefer Chinese or Russian 80% over Yankee 100% quality product.

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## Shane

bl33d said:


> S-400 hasnt gone well with the US, they will do anything to hurt turkey now, they already took a $500 million loss by kicking turkey out of F-35. Bcoz after Turkey and India, other countries are lining up. US can do only so much to India as it is not a NATO member. So turkey is the scapegoat. Lets see how it unfolds. I think they will find replacement engines if they didnt make their chasis to only fit the american engines. Hope they have some wiggle room.


S400 matter is not some school boy stuff to pass random remarks of some kiddy revenge, lol.

S400 has nothing to do with helicopter engine deal. Why would US let Pakistan have Turkish helis when it can't have the shiny US ones. When Pak-US defence matters get resolved soon enough then all the deals would go through or not. There are plenty of options and alternative to US tech in defence suppliers then ever before.

Eventually Pak-Turk will find another engine to replace the American for the benefit of both countries.


_





NEWS /TURKEY




*Trump declines to criticise Turkey's Russia missile purchase*
The US president takes a softer line against the deal, saying Ankara was forced into the move by his predecessor Obama.

17 July 2019 GMT+3
US President Donald Trump declined on Tuesday to criticise Turkey's acquisition of a Russian missile system opposed by the Pentagon and NATO, saying Ankara was forced into the move by his predecessor Barack Obama.


In his first comments since Turkey began taking delivery of the S-400 system last Friday, Trump said that he understood why Ankara opted to buy the Russian missiles.

"I've had a good relationship with President (Recep Tayyip) Erdogan," Trump told journalists.

"It's a very tough situation that they're in and it's a very tough situation that we've been placed in ... With all of that being said, we're working through it - we'll see what happens," he said without making any mention of sanctions Washington had threatened over the purchase.

Trump called it a "complex situation," noting that the Pentagon has suspended Turkey from participating in the NATO F-35 fighter jet production programme and from buying planned-for 100 F-35s._

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## mudas777

US can push only so much Turkey against the wall, there are always going to be alternatives for Turkey or having said that for any country. US is the one at the end going to create image of unreliable partner and countries are going to drift out of US sphere of influence. In short term US can create pain for any country but in long term US is the one who will be the loser. World business won't stop if US doesn't likes some country, it becomes matter of time to find someone else or there exists other solution.


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## Cash GK

bl33d said:


> S-400 hasnt gone well with the US, they will do anything to hurt turkey now, they already took a $500 million loss by kicking turkey out of F-35. Bcoz after Turkey and India, other countries are lining up. US can do only so much to India as it is not a NATO member. So turkey is the scapegoat. Lets see how it unfolds. I think they will find replacement engines if they didnt make their chasis to only fit the american engines. Hope they have some wiggle room.


Turkey should put duty on usa ships which pass by it sea


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## Imran Khan

Max said:


> PDF think Chinese Helis lack. I would rather Prefer Chinese or Russian 80% over Yankee 100% quality product.


PDF think tank to badshah hai bhi

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## Sunny4pak

Imran Khan said:


> in fact its good news for pakistan too we have stopped buying US weapons since 5 years and we don't want any US sh1t anymore now . turkey should find alternative engine .
> 
> 
> why pay money and be scared and begg ? why not just go china and buy z-10 simply ?.



100% Agreed with you Sir, We have the habit of asking for the weapons that having strings attached especially the American one. As far as Turkey is concerned if they want to succeed in Weapons export industry they must find a quick solution for engines.

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## Imran Khan

Sunny4pak said:


> 100% Agreed with you Sir, We have the habit of asking for the weapons that having strings attached especially the American one. As far as Turkey is concerned if they want to succeed in Weapons export industry they must find a quick solution for engines.


yeah its turkey's job to find engines but its also our job to avoid US tech as much as possible .

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## Turan09

Imran Khan said:


> in fact its good news for pakistan too we have stopped buying US weapons since 5 years and we don't want any US sh1t anymore now . turkey should find alternative engine .
> 
> 
> why pay money and be scared and begg ? why not just go china and buy z-10 simply ?.



Because Z-10 cant fly in himayalas... look at its engine power/Weight ratio and you will see it. Thats why Pakistan after tested it didnt chose it.

Anyway, It is bad news for now after all we lost 1.5 billion... but it will be good for long run. Our Defence Industry will not use american engines anymore. And we are working on Turkish engines in every field so I believe it will teach our leaders not to use american made parts in our products...

We shouldn't forget, Turkish defence Industry borned after 1974 american military emborgo against Turkey. They can emborgo us as they wish. It will make us stronger.

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## Imran Khan

Turan09 said:


> Because Z-10 cant fly in himayalas... look at its engine power/Weight ratio and you will see it. Thats why Pakistan after tested it didnt chose it.
> 
> Anyway, It is bad news for now after all we lost 1.5 billion... but it will be good for long run. Our Defence Industry will not use american engines anymore. And we are working on Turkish engines in every field so I believe it will teach our leaders not to use american made parts in our products...


sir i have seen almost every chopper in Pakistani inventory flying over Himalaya . we can buy few different choppers for Himalaya too .


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## ARMalik

It is a heli engine - surely there are other sources for these engines like Russia, UK, EU, China? Why does it have to be US?


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## Turan09

Imran Khan said:


> sir i have seen almost every chopper in Pakistani inventory flying over Himalaya . we can buy few different choppers for Himalaya too .



Actually you cant. Correct me if I am wrong but Pakistan wants this attack helicopters for Anti-Teror operations... and and As far as I know Hight in all afghan border is so much for Chinese helicopters... you guys saying ''inferior helos are better than zero helo'' but if you cant use it where you need it why would you pay for that?

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## Fawad alam

T-129 is better than Z-10 this is our understanding after Pakistani trials, But what is the solution of engines?
New engine will require time and trials again i think.

If we have time then we can go with Atak-2 also


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## python-000

Turan09 said:


> Actually you cant. Correct me if I am wrong but Pakistan wants this attack helicopters for Anti-Teror operations... and and As far as I know Hight in all afghan border is so much for Chinese helicopters... you guys saying ''inferior helos are better than zero helo'' but if you cant use it where you need it why would you pay for that?


So my brother what the solution with limited time in your eyes...


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## Tamiyah

Wait. Guy maybe they will be an improvement in ties after PM vist to US. Maybe PMIK will discuss this matter.


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## Imran Khan

Turan09 said:


> Actually you cant. Correct me if I am wrong but Pakistan wants this attack helicopters for Anti-Teror operations... and and As far as I know Hight in all afghan border is so much for Chinese helicopters... you guys saying ''inferior helos are better than zero helo'' but if you cant use it where you need it why would you pay for that?


man world have many choppers why we bay billion$+ and beg many countries ? Turkish chopper is not Turkish 100% USA is our biggest issue . pakistan want choppers for counter indian infantry units . terrorism is story of past . when was last time we used choppers against terrorists? yes operation zarb e azab . Chinese choppers may be less effective but once you buy them forget all BS . do you want us in future we are looking for engine parts from USA and they block them ? bad idea .


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## Turan09

python-000 said:


> So my brother what the solution with limited time in your eyes...



Brought Vipers from US (I know it is a bad idea) or look for Russian helis (we dont know about their performance but it will be better than chinese most probably) or wait for another engine for T-129... but it will take time. this is Pakistan's options... I know Pakistan is in a bad situation right now but I think there is no other way if US wont let the engines...




Imran Khan said:


> man world have many choppers why we bay billion$+ and beg many countries ? Turkish chopper is not Turkish 100% USA is our biggest issue . pakistan want choppers for counter indian infantry units . terrorism is story of past . when was last time we used choppers against terrorists? yes operation zarb e azab . Chinese choppers may be less effective but once you buy them forget all BS . do you want us in future we are looking for engine parts from USA and they block them ? bad idea .



Believe me, if it was like you said Pakistani army would have chose china. After all they are much more close to your state... but we both know your army did not wanted the chinese helos because like I said look at the weight/power ratio. Math wont lie.


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## PakShaheen79

The deal is practically dead. No engine means no heli is coming to Pakistan.


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## nomi007

Turkish decision also hit us.
we need to buy AH-1Z from USA on payment


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## python-000

nomi007 said:


> Turkish decision also hit us.
> we need to buy AH-1Z from USA on payment


& just what Turkey did wrong that you are saying that its decision also hit us & what decision are you talking about...

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## Imran Khan

Turan09 said:


> Brought Vipers from US (I know it is a bad idea) or look for Russian helis (we dont know about their performance but it will be better than chinese most probably) or wait for another engine for T-129... but it will take time. this is Pakistan's options... I know Pakistan is in a bad situation right now but I think there is no other way if US wont let the engines...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, if it was like you said Pakistani army would have chose china. After all they are much more close to your state... but we both know your army did not wanted the chinese helos because like I said look at the weight/power ratio. Math wont lie.


i think pakistan do not want all eggs in one basket otherwise we never buy mi-35s .


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## 055_destroyer

Turan09 said:


> Brought Vipers from US (I know it is a bad idea) or look for Russian helis (we dont know about their performance but it will be better than chinese most probably) or wait for another engine for T-129... but it will take time. this is Pakistan's options... I know Pakistan is in a bad situation right now but I think there is no other way if US wont let the engines...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, if it was like you said Pakistani army would have chose china. After all they are much more close to your state... but we both know your army did not wanted the chinese helos because like I said look at the weight/power ratio. Math wont lie.


I know you are bitter over the dead sales of T-129 helo but fact is Z-10ME is a different beast. Especially tailor for export. Engine is uprated, tailor for high attitude.

http://eng.mod.gov.cn/focus/2019-07/11/content_4845631_3.htm

*A cluster of WZ-10 attack helicopters attached to an army aviation brigade under the PLA 76th Group Army fly in tactical formation over the Kunlun Mountains for a live-fire training exercise in west China’s plateau area in early July, 2019. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Wu Zhen and Wu Xiaofeng)*

















*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_Mountains*

*The Kunlun Mountains are one of the longest mountain chains in Asia*, extending more than 3,000 kilometres. In the broadest sense, the chain forms the northern edge of the Tibetan Plateau south of the Tarim Basin. The exact definition of this range varies. Wikipedia

Elevation: 7,167 m


https://www.janes.com/article/84433...pgraded-z-10me-attack-helicopter-breaks-cover






https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...hinas-z-10me-showcased-increased-capabilities

Likely to target markets from the Middle East and Africa, the Z-10ME was represented in a sand and green camouflage livery and was refitted with sand/dust separation filters for its* improved WZ-9 turboshaft engines, which are believed to provide 30 percent more power, at around 1,200 kW.* The engine exhausts are modified from the standard Z-10 sideward-facing exhausts to upward-facing exhausts, which decreases its infrared signature.

T-129 being a light attack helo lacks the kind of armour compare to Z-10 gunship which is medium weight. In terms of withstanding ground firepower. No doubt T-129 will go down first if under the same enemy damage.

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## araz

Sunny4pak said:


> 100% Agreed with you Sir, We have the habit of asking for the weapons that having strings attached especially the American one. As far as Turkey is concerned if they want to succeed in Weapons export industry they must find a quick solution for engines.


The only problem is there is no quick solution for engines. It might be another provider but then again the helo will require testing in the Pak mountains to ensure it is good for the job.
A

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> The only problem is there is no quick solution for engines. It might be another provider but then again the helo will require testing in the Pak mountains to ensure it is good for the job.
> A


Araz there is an option of Italian engine. PAA needs to retest the heli though which could take around 10-12 months.

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## nomi007

I hope IK & Pakistani military official request Trump for engines
but it is better to buy American Ah-1z from USA on cash


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## araz

nomi007 said:


> I hope IK & Pakistani military official request Trump for engines
> but it is better to buy American Ah-1z from USA on cash


I disagree. There is some form of TOT/Subassembly on offer from Turkey. I think we need to start making forays into this market. One of the main problems of buying US equipment is you dont get any form of transfer of tech. Even Turkey in spìte of assembling its own F16s cannot modify /alter any part of tbeir 16s.
A


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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> The only problem is there is no quick solution for engines. It might be another provider but then again the helo will require testing in the Pak mountains to ensure it is good for the job.
> A


then why not buy from italy ? WE ALREADY BUYING FROM THEM CHOPPERS SIR .

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

_Elhamdulillah_!! Now, Pak will get 10 ton beast of war, ATAK II, with the indigenous motor!!!! Hopefully, Pak will now be very much a part of the development of the Turkish choppers like the way JF17s are!!! Not that Pak immediately needs these choppers for the “Last Afgans” are breathing their lasts as simple swords are now enough to chop their heads off....

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> _Elhamdulillah_!! Now, Pak will get 10 ton beast of war, ATAK II, with the indigenous motor!!!! Hopefully, Pak will now be very much a part of the development of the Turkish choppers like the way JF17s are!!! Not that Pak immediately needs these choppers for the “Last Afgans” are breathing their lasts as simple swords are now enough to chop their heads off....



Pakistan will not wait for our domestic turboshaft engine to enter service. Even when commissioned, it is not clear that it can offer the same performance as LHTEC at high altitude. You can at least be realistic and talk a little more technically.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Pakistan will not wait for our domestic turboshaft engine to enter service. Even when commissioned, it is not clear that it can offer the same performance as LHTEC at high altitude. You can at least be realistic and talk a little more technically.


Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Araz there is an option of Italian engine. PAA needs to retest the heli though which could take around 10-12 months.



As far as I know, Italy doesn't have a domestic turboshaft engine



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein



Imagination can't take our helicopter to an altitude of 6100 meters -RadarGudumluMuhimmat

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> As far as I know, Italy doesn't have a domestic turboshaft engine
> 
> 
> 
> Imagination can't take our helicopter to an altitude of 6100 meters -RadarGudumluMuhimmat


Agree, but relentless hard work, smartness, intelligence, sincerity, honesty etc. will....

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## PDF

araz said:


> I disagree. There is some form of TOT/Subassembly on offer from Turkey. I think we need to start making forays into this market. One of the main problems of buying US equipment is you dont get any form of transfer of tech. Even Turkey in spìte of assembling its own F16s cannot modify /alter any part of tbeir 16s.
> A


But, Israel does...


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## araz

Hachiman said:


> But, Israel does...


Even Israel was not allowed to put their own radars into their Soufas.
A

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

araz said:


> Even Israel was not allowed to put their own radars into their Soufas.
> A



All electronics on F16 with the "Ozgur(Free)" Program, Turkey has changed with indigenous counterparts. It seems certain that Aselsan will also use Aesa Radar in the future. It was a wrong example.

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## The Eagle

Why do we think that "US Engine Embargo" wasn't considered when we moved into sale/purchase level talks. Everything was considered during talks & surely, way out was also reviewed as a Plan-B. Professionals does not take on projects in isolated manners and be shocked like this embargo case.

@cabatli_53 am I wrong to say that we are now moving to Plan-B "the way out in-case of possible Us embargo"? There are things in store, surely.

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## cabatli_53

The Eagle said:


> Why do we think that "US Engine Embargo" wasn't considered when we moved into sale/purchase level talks. Everything was considered during talks & surely, way out was also reviewed as a Plan-B. Professionals does not take on projects in isolated manners and be shocked like this embargo case.
> 
> @cabatli_53 am I wrong to say that we are now moving to Plan-B "the way out in-case of possible Us embargo"? There are things in store, surely.




I also believe in that way. If It was the case, Pakistan and Turkey would have offially announced that Atak deal is dead but Instead, Pakistani general visited TAI facilities, talked about more cooperation and watched T-129 Atak flight show a few days ago. I expect We will see what will be the Plan-B in following months.

We do not know the actual scope of Pakistan and Turkish Atak deal for future. The deal may serve a stop gap solution until heavier Atak-2 pass into production. Pakistan may plan to join into Atak-2 production processes. We will see If we achieve our goals...

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## nomi007

S400 hit also PAA T-129 
so sad

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

I don't think the reason for the ambargo is S 400. If they did, they wouldn't sell us the same engine.
As in the Viper problem, the problem was Pakistan from the very beginning. 

It's not realistic to use a different engine, but it's the same way to retest. If TEI does not rush, Pakistan will move to China.

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## Path-Finder

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> As far as I know, Italy doesn't have a domestic turboshaft engine


France?

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## mingle

It's a good Heli I hope engine issue will resolve with EU option but why turkey is after S400???? They don't have immediate threats plus having own long range system under development.


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## MastanKhan

The Eagle said:


> Why do we think that "US Engine Embargo" wasn't considered when we moved into sale/purchase level talks. Everything was considered during talks & surely, way out was also reviewed as a Plan-B. Professionals does not take on projects in isolated manners and be shocked like this embargo case.
> 
> @cabatli_53 am I wrong to say that we are now moving to Plan-B "the way out in-case of possible Us embargo"? There are things in store, surely.




Hi,

Pakistan never thought about the engine embargo---even if someone brought it up---the Pak generals shut them down---.

This embargo was obvious as the shining sun up above in the sky on a hot Clear day---.

There is NO PLAN B here---. What we would be depending on is a brand new engine and you know how much time it takes to develop them--.

We really were better off with the chinese helicopter---it was a guarantee---we could have used turkish EW package etc---but a turkish chopper was technically out of question for us---.

Now IK is here in the US---would it be possible to get the engines---we will know shortly---.

Overall a very bad decision for a country that can go to war with its neighbor at any time---.

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## Shahzaz ud din

*Turkey’s ATAK helicopter sale to Pakistan stalled over missing engines - SoL*
The sale of Turkish-made T129 ATAK helicopter gunships to Pakistan has hit a stumbling block as no engines have been found for the gunships after the United States failed to issue the permit required for their delivery, communist news site SoL reported on Wednesday.

Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships on July 13, 2018. The delivery date of the first helicopter was pushed back after the U.S. Department of Defence last year refused to issue the Turkish company with an export license for the delivery of the gunships’ CTS800 engines.

Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers of the engine, according to Hürriyet newspaper.

Meanwhile, 41 ATAK helicopters have been delivered to the Turkish Land Forces Command and six to the Gendarmerie General Command, SoL said.

The deal between Ankara and Islamabad sees for the delivery of 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. Pakistan’s current AH-1F Cobra gunships lack the capability to perform adequately over the higher altitudes of the Hindu Kush mountain range, separating Afghanistan and

Pakistan, according to the country’s officials.


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## Maxpane

worst decision and they know that engine is from usa .


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## CHI RULES

Maxpane said:


> worst decision and they know that engine is from usa .


Sir there are many engine options the delivery may be called as stalled or delayed but not terminated, the deliveries shall happen though some delays for testing of new engine are obvious, may be we are not well calculated but Turkish are. On other hand if Pak is able to get 13 +2 optional AH1Z along with upgrades for AH1Fs these measures may compensate for time being till deliveries of T129 are started.


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## UFO77

*Huawei has once again proved that it is impossible to hand over its own destiny to others. Whatever the final choice of Pakistan, remember that if there is no stable supply, then it will end up being a pile of scrap iron.
*

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## araz

UFO77 said:


> *Huawei has once again proved that it is impossible to hand over its own destiny to others. Whatever the final choice of Pakistan, remember that if there is no stable supply, then it will end up being a pile of scrap iron.*


It is such a pity the Z10 did not come upto expectations during its trials in Pakistan. We hope and pray that it progresses smoothly.
A


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## Humble Analyst

nomi007 said:


> Turkey has submitted a request to the US-British co-production engines. However, due to the crisis did not respond positively to demand ATAK exports became uncertain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey's long-standing barriers to vaccination engine for the export of works that appeared on Attack helicopters for export. Sales uncertainty continues due to the US-UK co-production engine of ATAK.
> 
> President Tayyip Erdogan's statements at a meeting with the chief executive of newspapers and televisions the previous day, the US-UK co-production engine used in the ATAK helicopter was requested from the British Rolls Royce'tan, but this request was not responded positively.
> 
> On July 13, 2018, the Presidency of Defense Industry reached an agreement to sell 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. Agreement that the total amount of exports made during the period was 1.5 billion dollars and was noted to be carried out so that the largest defense industry exports at a time in the history of Turkey. The Philippines also stated that the interest in the ATAK helicopter, in this context, Defense Industry Cooperation between the Philippines and Turkey Memorandum of Understanding was signed.
> 
> *Seeking an alternative*
> At that time, it was reported that the first ATAK helicopter would be delivered to Pakistan in 2019, but the engine problem, one of the most important parts of the helicopter, appeared on the calendar. Turkish Aerospace Industry Inc. (TUSAŞ / TAI), ATAK helicopter uses CTS800 type engine produced by Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between American Honeywell and British Rolls Royce. Since this engine is used in the helicopter, the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) needs permission to export it to another country. The Pentagon has not yet issued this permit. This permission is not expected to be issued in the short term at a time of threat from the United States due to S-400 missiles received from Russia.
> 
> At the end of last year it had taken place in the press news that the direction of the LHTEC engine to look for alternatives for the ATAK France, Poland and Turkey. However, Pakistan requires a re-test flight in the Himalayas if an ATAK helicopter uses engines from a country other than the US.
> The first test of the turbocharger engine designed by TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii (TEI) as domestic helicopter engine was performed at the end of last year. Domestic helicopter engine to come to the mass production stage and can be used in the ATAK helicopter can be realized in the long term.
> Turkey is currently in the Land Forces Command 41, a total of 47, including 6 ATTACK helikoper the Gendarmerie General Command was delivered.
> 
> 
> Best alternative is AH-1Z
> USA will never block sale if we pay them


1 billion dena hay


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## Rafi

araz said:


> It is such a pity the Z10 did not come upto expectations during its trials in Pakistan. We hope and pray that it progresses smoothly.
> A



The upgraded version came just too late for trials, we could just go with the Z10ME and wait for Attak 2.

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## araz

CHI RULES said:


> Sir there are many engine options the delivery may be called as stalled or delayed but not terminated, the deliveries shall happen though some delays for testing of new engine are obvious, may be we are not well calculated but Turkish are. On other hand if Pak is able to get 13 +2 optional AH1Z along with upgrades for AH1Fs these measures may compensate for time being till deliveries of T129 are started.


Possibly a delay of upto a year. The zulus may take time and it would be wrong to sit there relying on them to come. Looking at the situation US might have engineered it to get PAA to ask for Zulus. T129s may yet come. It is the responsibility of the Turkish company to find an alternate engine and we will play it like we did the RD saga in the 90s. 


Rafi said:


> The upgraded version came just too late for trials, we could just go with the Z10ME and wait for Attak 2.


It will need trials in Pak lands and the time may be now for hot and high trials and November for cold and high trials. I think the former are more important for Pakistan. The question is how far back is the ATAK Shifted back due to engine non supply and will IK be able to push US to give a nod!
A

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## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan never thought about the engine embargo---even if someone brought it up---the Pak generals shut them down---.
> 
> This embargo was obvious as the shining sun up above in the sky on a hot Clear day---.
> 
> There is NO PLAN B here---. What we would be depending on is a brand new engine and you know how much time it takes to develop them--.
> 
> We really were better off with the chinese helicopter---it was a guarantee---we could have used turkish EW package etc---but a turkish chopper was technically out of question for us---.
> 
> Now IK is here in the US---would it be possible to get the engines---we will know shortly---.
> 
> Overall a very bad decision for a country that can go to war with its neighbor at any time---.


What I admire about you is you don’t mince words and some cannot take it @MastanKhan

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## araz

Rafi said:


> The upgraded version came just too late for trials, we could just go with the Z10ME and wait for Attak 2.


@Rafi.
How did the assessment of the z10 go in Pakistan. Any ideas would be appreciated especially with regards to what was requested regarding upgrading prior to reconsideration.
A


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## porris

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Agree, but relentless hard work, smartness, intelligence, sincerity, honesty etc. will....




I like your wisdon Brother. Never loss hope

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## 055_destroyer

araz said:


> It is such a pity the Z10 did not come upto expectations during its trials in Pakistan. We hope and pray that it progresses smoothly.
> A


Check this post. Latest news.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ates-discussions.44640/page-178#post-11626679

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## araz

055_destroyer said:


> Check this post. Latest news.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ates-discussions.44640/page-178#post-11626679


I did see this. The crunch point is Iam sure PAA will invite the improved Z10 back for further trials. Whether this happens this year or next year it will happen. The T129 saga needs to reach its own culmination.
A


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## 055_destroyer

araz said:


> I did see this. The crunch point is Iam sure PAA will invite the improved Z10 back for further trials. Whether this happens this year or next year it will happen. The T129 saga needs to reach its own culmination.
> A


There is not much problem with Z-10 except its under powered engine which is rectify by newer and more powerful engine for Z-10ME. Note that T129 is able to achieve higher power to weight ratio by sacrificing armor to trim its weight to less 4tons empty weight. 

So now you get a Z-10ME which has better armor, same power to weight ratio. In terms of high attitude mission, I don't think I need to say more as demonstrated by recent drill above Kunlun mountain with height of more than 7000m.

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## Rafi

araz said:


> @Rafi.
> How did the assessment of the z10 go in Pakistan. Any ideas would be appreciated especially with regards to what was requested regarding upgrading prior to reconsideration.
> A



What I can say is we liked some things and others we asked for improvement, I can say with a high degree of certainty, that the Z-10ME is a result of that.

I know, that discussions between Pak and Turkey are discussing options and if possible for an alternative engine. 

If not then there have been ideas that we use the current Attak contract and use it for Attak 2. 

As soon as, that happens or even before we could see the ME in country.

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## dBSPL

The Pakistani army will get a much better ATAK. A little patience please.

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## mingle

Turkish sources confirm today 30 ATAK and 4 coverrts r coming to Pak worth of 3 billion dollars Gen zubair visited TAI and assured by Rolls-Royce that they stand by commitment no engine issue.
Seems to me same fake propaganda by certain quarters during JF17 engine issue

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Turkish sources confirm today 30 ATAK and 4 coverrts r coming to Pak worth of 3 billion dollars Gen zubair visited TAI and assured by Rolls-Royce that they stand by commitment no engine issue.
> Seems to me same fake propaganda by certain quarters during JF17 engine issue


Your source please. We know that TAI remains optimistic on sales of T129 to Pakistan even though relationship with US has gotten worse with the suspension of F35 program for Turkey.

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## Trango Towers

mingle said:


> Turkish sources confirm today 30 ATAK and 4 coverrts r coming to Pak worth of 3 billion dollars Gen zubair visited TAI and assured by Rolls-Royce that they stand by commitment no engine issue.
> Seems to me same fake propaganda by certain quarters during JF17 engine issue


The fake propaganda is just that fake and eventually comes home to roost. Europe is realising that usa wants all the business and doenst want them to have any. Europe will start to protect its industry


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## Islamic faith&Secularism

Pakistan is in the same dilemma as Turkey was in; and Turkey has made decision by initiating the indigenous defence industry in land, air, sea, E/W.

Pakistan could keep buying on the shelves of Russia, China, USA etc. with ''conditions'' added in her interests for saving the days; or encounter the time and risk the half money in JVs with Turkey for freedom in her interests for the future to come.

At some point, you will have to make this decision either way; today, tomorrow or decades later. Unfortunate to lose many things till awaring of that point.

P.S.: I personally think Pakistan will keep buying on the shelf, no offence/disrespect.

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## Max

Islamic faith&Secularism said:


> Pakistan is in the same dilemma as Turkey was in; and Turkey has made decision by initiating the indigenous defence industry in land, air, sea, E/W.
> 
> Pakistan could keep buying on the shelves of Russia, China, USA etc. with ''conditions'' added in her interests for saving the days; or encounter the time and risk the half money in JVs with Turkey for freedom in her interests for the future to come.
> 
> At some point, you will have to make this decision either way; today, tomorrow or decades later. Unfortunate to lose many things till awaring of that point.



It seems right now our military establishment is fine with off the shelf, now Pakistan have to wait for next phase of shock therapy (US military sanction) to wake up. When last time sanctions blocked our way, we ended up with nuclear program, missile program, Tank production and JFT along with many small things like own shoulder fire anti aircraft missile and anti tank missile which we are upgrading till now.

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## Islamic faith&Secularism

Max said:


> It seems right now our military establishment is fine with off the shelf, now Pakistan have to wait for next phase of shock therapy (US military sanction) to wake up. When last time sanctions blocked our way, we ended up with nuclear program, missile program, Tank production and JFT along with many small things like own shoulder fire anti aircraft missile and anti tank missile which we are upgrading till now.



I think you are unfair for your ''military establishment''; quite the opposite, they are the most innocent party in this scenario.

The answer to the dilemma lies in the politicians and bureaucracy in Pakistan; and unfortunately, your ''military establishment'' will have to be sacrificed if they push hard for the sake of Pakistani interests... just like in Turkey.


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## Max

Islamic faith&Secularism said:


> I think you are unfair for your ''military establishment''; quite the opposite, they are the most innocent party in this scenario.
> 
> The answer to the dilemma lies in the politicians and bureaucracy in Pakistan; and unfortunately, your ''military establishment'' will have to be sacrificed if they push hard for the sake of Pakistani interests... just like in Turkey.



when i say military establishment, it means all institutions who are involve in defense productions, acquisition whether Politicians, Generals, bureaucrats.

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## aliaselin

The deal is funded by Qatar. PK could ask Qatar for help.


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## CHI RULES

araz said:


> Possibly a delay of upto a year. The zulus may take time and it would be wrong to sit there relying on them to come. Looking at the situation US might have engineered it to get PAA to ask for Zulus. T129s may yet come. It is the responsibility of the Turkish company to find an alternate engine and we will play it like we did the RD saga in the 90s.
> 
> It will need trials in Pak lands and the time may be now for hot and high trials and November for cold and high trials. I think the former are more important for Pakistan. The question is how far back is the ATAK Shifted back due to engine non supply and will IK be able to push US to give a nod!
> A


Sir I am quite agreed with you that delay shall happen but eventually Pak will get T129 with either EU based engine ( vital chances) or in dire circumstances with Russian ( in case of no other option). On other hand if cards are played wisely Pak may get deliveries of 13 AH1z in next few months and even may go for two optional ones later on.

Though it is discussed earlier yet I am of the view that in any future medium scale conflict we may observe one to one confrontation between Indian Attack helis and Pak's. I have seen Indian videos where there domestically produced Attack helis going for A to A kills during testing/exercises. We should also arm our future attack helis with AAMs and train our pilots in same way.



Islamic faith&Secularism said:


> I think you are unfair for your ''military establishment''; quite the opposite, they are the most innocent party in this scenario.
> 
> The answer to the dilemma lies in the politicians and bureaucracy in Pakistan; and unfortunately, your ''military establishment'' will have to be sacrificed if they push hard for the sake of Pakistani interests... just like in Turkey.



Dear member you cannot understand the situation from outside, the main issues Pak is facing are following and mainly due to lack of proper planning and resources.

1. Lack of infrastructure or fiances to go for TOT/R&D.
2.Limited number of superior research institutes/Tech Uni
3. Brain drain

Now Pakistan is going on right path though delayed development some of them are.
1. Work sharing by defense institutions.
2. Acknowledgement of private sector importance in defense sector though limited.
3. Establishment of new requirement based institutions for future self reliance in technology.
4. Establishment infrastructure i.e Aviation city project by PAF, induction of new equipment for ship manufacturing etc. 

The better results shall come if progress goes on but not immediately but in time span of next 10-12 Years.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Your source please. We know that TAI remains optimistic on sales of T129 to Pakistan even though relationship with US has gotten worse with the suspension of F35 program for Turkey.


Read on twitter


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## Dazzler

Rafi said:


> The upgraded version came just too late for trials, we could just go with the Z10ME and wait for Attak 2.



The ME was tailor made for PA as it addressed all concerns from improving engine output, changing HMDS and engine intake, put shoulder armor plates and change the main turret/ optics. PA should put it to trials.

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## JK!

Dazzler said:


> The ME was tailor made for PA as it addressed all concerns from improving engine output, changing HMDS and engine intake, put shoulder armor plates and change the main turret/ optics. PA should put it to trials.




Is there scope to integrate the avionics and weapon systems of the ATAK into Z10ME as a platform?

That way if in the long Pakistan and Turkey can see if French Safran or Polish PZL engines could be integrated into ATAK for the long term whilst still having Z10ME as an interim solution

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## Rafi

Dazzler said:


> The ME was tailor made for PA as it addressed all concerns from improving engine output, changing HMDS and engine intake, put shoulder armor plates and change the main turret/ optics. PA should put it to trials.



Defo, unfortunately the T129 has become part of the tussle between the US and Turkey. 

As has been suggested we can take the deal signed for Atak 1 and join Atak 2 as a partner, win win.

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## mingle

Rafi said:


> Defo, unfortunately the T129 has become part of the tussle between the US and Turkey.
> 
> As has been suggested we can take the deal signed for Atak 1 and join Atak 2 as a partner, win win.


Sir any news from US so far and what r expectations??? My take is we will get Zulus.


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## nomi007

Dazzler said:


> The ME was tailor made for PA as it addressed all concerns from improving engine output, changing HMDS and engine intake, put shoulder armor plates and change the main turret/ optics. PA should put it to trials.


Chinese machinery is not satisfactory PN is already facing issues of maintenance in Z-9 helos.
better to adopt western platform Euro tiger is far better option than turkish


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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> Chinese machinery is not satisfactory PN is already facing issues of maintenance in Z-9 helos.
> better to adopt western platform Euro tiger is far better option than turkish



That tiger is a while elephant.


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## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> Chinese machinery is not satisfactory PN is already facing issues of maintenance in Z-9 helos.
> better to adopt western platform Euro tiger is far better option than turkish


funny because z-9 is more like licence copy ..unless Chinese cant do licence manufacturing?
of course they can as almost everything is manufactured in china these days

i am no expert but i feel do we really need gunships when the militancy has became low intensity war?..drones seems to be better options now ?with their 20+ hours loiter time ?..cheaper..?

if they are being brought for anti Armour role for our eastern boarder..well i will first shore up PAF ...which is in very bad shap..without PAF gunships wont survive onslaught from IAF..

army can mean time try getting the Zulus and look for if possible nay upgrade for old cobras like jordan did..acquire couple of more mi24 as multirole..


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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> Sir any news from US so far and what r expectations??? My take is we will get Zulus.



IK and Military leaderships had a good meeting and hope some positive outcome of that should show in few months.

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> funny because z-9 is more like licence copy ..unless Chinese cant do licence manufacturing?
> of course they can as almost everything is manufactured in china these days
> 
> i am no expert but i feel do we need really need gunships when the militancy has became low intensity war..drones seems to be better options now with their 20+ hours loiter time ..cheaper..
> 
> if they are being brought for anti Armour role for our eastern boarder..well i will first shore up PAF ...which is in very bad shap..without PAF gunships wont survive onslaught from IAF..
> 
> army can mean time try getting the Zulus and look for if possible nay upgrade for old cobras like jordan did..acquire couple of more mi24 as multirole..


There are no issues with Zee9ers


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> There are no issues with Zee9ers


i doubt there will be, its trust able European heli..just been liscence built(& improved upon) by china..


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## Rafi

mingle said:


> Sir any news from US so far and what r expectations??? My take is we will get Zulus.



50 50

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## Flight of falcon

Pakistan is in discussion for 9 billion outstanding CSF payments and other dues from USA. This includes military items held up and the wish list of new weapons. 

USA has responded positively to solve this issue provided we deliver Afghanistan deal on a silver platter .....

Pakistan is now going all out to make the deal possible for Americans. 

One purpose of this quickly arranged visit was to make sure that the American establishment and public knows who is going to make the deal and get reassurances that Pakistan will not be left out in cold again. 
Pakistan is in the driving seat right now and Trump desperately needs a foreign relations victory after his disaster in N Korea, Iran and the Middle East.

Pakistan received assurances from American military and both sides of the political divide that our effort and results will not go down in vain. 

Next few months are critical.

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## GriffinsRule

If Pakistan is able to pull together a peace deal in Afghanistan, it will lead to both a Trump re-election victory and one for Imran Khan as well. Trump is unlikely to forget that in his second term and it will give Pakistan a good stretch of time and space, from a friendlier WH and Congress, to implement its own economic turn around

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## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> If Pakistan is able to pull together a peace deal in Afghanistan, it will lead to both a Trump re-election victory and one for Imran Khan as well. Trump is unlikely to forget that in his second term and it will give Pakistan a good stretch of time and space, from a friendlier WH and Congress, to implement its own economic turn around


Trump values Loyalty

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## Quwa

Rafi said:


> Defo, unfortunately the T129 has become part of the tussle between the US and Turkey.
> 
> As has been suggested we can take the deal signed for Atak 1 and join Atak 2 as a partner, win win.


@cabatli_53 @T-123456 do you remember how before TAI announced the Heavy Attack Helicopter program, there were statements about a 7-8 ton ATAK using the TEI same engine, transmission, etc as the T-625?

_Conceived as a combination of T129 ATAK and T625, ATAK 2 is using the sub-systems such as transmission, rotor systems and landing gears developed under the T625 Utility Helicopter Project as well as the technological know-how, operational experience and achievements gained through the T129 ATAK Helicopter Project. ATAK 2, will be a combat helicopter that can successfully perform its missions in harsh geographical and environmental conditions, which will have increased payload capacity and modern avionic systems alongside with high performance and low maintenance cost.

https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/atak-2
_​There's no way the 9-10-ton ATAK fits that description, you'd need a T700-class turboshaft engine to even power such a thing (i.e., it'd need commonality with the TAI General Purpose Helicopter). So I wonder if ATAK-2 is actually the back-up plan in case the US starts dangling the engine to thwart ATAK sales.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

GriffinsRule said:


> If Pakistan is able to pull together a peace deal in Afghanistan, it will lead to both a Trump re-election victory and one for Imran Khan as well. Trump is unlikely to forget that in his second term and it will give Pakistan a good stretch of time and space, from a friendlier WH and Congress, to implement its own economic turn around


President Trump has already hinted that he hasn’t forgotten the Lithium, used in the batteries of the EVs, and other rare earth metals deposits in Afganistan!!! And, one of the deep rooted griefs of the President is that the US car brands aren’t popular in the world!! Who knows Tesla may be an answer to this, especially for gen Z/Z+ etc.!!! Both stability in Afganistan and cooperation from Pak are required.....

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## cabatli_53

Quwa said:


> @cabatli_53 @T-123456 do you remember how before TAI announced the Heavy Attack Helicopter program, there were statements about a 7-8 ton ATAK using the TEI same engine, transmission, etc as the T-625?
> 
> _Conceived as a combination of T129 ATAK and T625, ATAK 2 is using the sub-systems such as transmission, rotor systems and landing gears developed under the T625 Utility Helicopter Project as well as the technological know-how, operational experience and achievements gained through the T129 ATAK Helicopter Project. ATAK 2, will be a combat helicopter that can successfully perform its missions in harsh geographical and environmental conditions, which will have increased payload capacity and modern avionic systems alongside with high performance and low maintenance cost.
> 
> https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/atak-2
> _​There's no way the 9-10-ton ATAK fits that description, you'd need a T700-class turboshaft engine to even power such a thing (i.e., it'd need commonality with the TAI General Purpose Helicopter). So I wonder if ATAK-2 is actually the back-up plan in case the US starts dangling the engine to thwart ATAK sales.



You know A new generation attack helicopter development program commenced under the light of T-129 Atak project. During the first years of feasibility studies, It is considered to improve the fuselage based on existing Atak with around 6t MTOW instead of previous 5t. With this way, It was targetted that T-625 and Atak-2 would had featured same domestic engine and transmission package. Later, Army and TUSAŞ reconsidered the requirements to fit the program into the mission profile of Turkish terrains and It was agreed to improve the MTOW around 8t as a result. As the time goes by, The re-assessment has continued to draw the final shape of Atak-2 program. Consequently, The Atak-2 has evolved into a heavy class attack helicopter which has a MTOW around 10-12t at present. The deal between SSB and TAI have signed to develop it accordingly. According to Temel Kotil, the head of TAI, Atak-2 will have a domestic turboshaft engine that have a thrust around 2500shp. The transmission package will also be developed thanks to experiences gained from T-625 program. In paralel to program requirements, Atak-2 and 12t utility helicopter is planned to host same engine and transmission package. The evolution of program created many new targets to meet ambitious requirements of Army.

Sister helicopters !

12t Utility Helo






10-12t Atak-2

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## Quwa

cabatli_53 said:


> You know A new generation attack helicopter development program commenced under the light of T-129 Atak project. During the first years of feasibility studies, It is considered to improve the fuselage based on existing Atak with around 6t MTOW instead of previous 5t. With this way, It was targetted that T-625 and Atak-2 would had featured same domestic engine and transmission package. Later, Army and TUSAŞ reconsidered the requirements to fit the program into the mission profile of Turkish terrains and It was agreed to improve the MTOW around 8t as a result. As the time goes by, The re-assessment has continued to draw the final shape of Atak-2 program. Consequently, The Atak-2 has evolved into a heavy class attack helicopter which has a MTOW around 10-12t at present. The deal between SSB and TAI have signed to develop it accordingly. According to Temel Kotil, the head of TAI, Atak-2 will have a domestic turboshaft engine that have a thrust around 2500shp. The transmission package will also be developed thanks to experiences gained from T-625 program. In paralel to program requirements, Atak-2 and 12t utility helicopter is planned to host same engine and transmission package. The evolution of program created many new targets to meet ambitious requirements of Army.
> 
> Sister helicopters !
> 
> 12t Utility Helo
> View attachment 571143
> 
> 
> 10-12t Atak-2
> View attachment 571144


So, it would be interesting if there's an idea to create a 6-ton ATAK with the TEI turboshaft engine and T-625's components. This would basically be the ITAR-free ATAK (before the 10-ton ATAK-2).

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## cabatli_53

Quwa said:


> So, it would be interesting if there's an idea to create a 6-ton ATAK with the TEI turboshaft engine and T-625's components. This would basically be the ITAR-free ATAK (before the 10-ton ATAK-2).



I do not know current situation of this development but ITAR-Free Atak with domestic engine and component + modified fuselage will be called as Atak Phase-2.

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## khanasifm

https://www.janes.com/article/90585/aselsan-orders-reach-historical-peak

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## khanasifm

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/EASA TCDS E128_PZL-10W_issue01_20151215_1.0.pdf


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## HAIDER

Quwa said:


> So, it would be interesting if there's an idea to create a 6-ton ATAK with the TEI turboshaft engine and T-625's components. This would basically be the ITAR-free ATAK (before the 10-ton ATAK-2).


Changing the engine means changing the whole structural configuration.


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## cabatli_53

According to Mete Yarar who visited TAI facilities to make a TV program, The T-129 Atak program signed with PAkistan is proceeding as planned. The pilot traning activities will be commenced in a short time.

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## mingle

cabatli_53 said:


> According to Mete Yarar who visited TAI facilities to make a TV program, The T-129 Atak program signed with PAkistan is proceeding as planned. The pilot traning activities will be commenced in a short time.


Great News thanks@cabatli_53

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## thunderkaka

cabatli_53 said:


> According to Mete Yarar who visited TAI facilities to make a TV program, The T-129 Atak program signed with PAkistan is proceeding as planned. The pilot traning activities will be commenced in a short time.



@fatman17, @Windjammer

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## Dazzler

P5 on the tail, for Pakistan?

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## aziqbal

doubt it since its in Turkish camo


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dazzler said:


> P5 on the tail, for Pakistan?
> 
> View attachment 578452


@cabatli_53 Prototype 5?


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## Dazzler

aziqbal said:


> doubt it since its in Turkish camo



Should it not sport a Turkish flag instead of P5 in that case, like other helos around?


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## fatman17

thunderkaka said:


> @fatman17, @Windjammer



such activities can take place, no restrictions but TAI has still not received NOC for the US engine which powers the helo.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

thunderkaka said:


> @fatman17, @Windjammer


Mete Yarar, an ex Special Ops officer, is quite an insider guy and close to the government!!! His media presentations as a security analyst is highly popular among the common folks for he simplifies the technical stuffs quite nicely....

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @cabatli_53 Prototype 5?




It is Prototype bro.


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## CHI RULES

Considering current threats and country on verge of war Pakistan should look for WZ10 option again as times are desperate, our defense analysts should analyse and if AH1z not feasible then for time being should go for improved WZ10s our future attack helicopter fleet may constitute two types.


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## Khafee

CHI RULES said:


> Considering current threats and country on verge of war Pakistan should look for WZ10 option again as times are desperate, our defense analysts should analyse and if AH1z not feasible then for time being should go for improved WZ10s our future attack helicopter fleet may constitute two types.



*Upgraded Z-10ME attack helicopter*
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...me-attack-helicopter-is-ready-for-export.html

https://www.janes.com/article/84433...pgraded-z-10me-attack-helicopter-breaks-cover

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## Viper27

Is there no way for both countries to look for other options when it comes to engines? Can Pakistan not consult Safran (Poland) to see if they can provide an alternate? We do need gunships rather quickly.


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## doorstar

Khafee said:


> Upgraded Z-10ME attack helicopter

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## Aamir Hussain

They can upgrade it as much as they want but the engine is and remains the problem. Their performance was lacking in hot and high conditions.

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## doorstar

Aamir Hussain said:


> They can upgrade it as much as they want but the engine is and remains the problem. Their performance was lacking in hot and high conditions.


Z-10ME incorporates a new, higher-output turboshaft 1200 kW engine compared with the Z-10's 935 kW.

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## Imran Khan

Aamir Hussain said:


> They can upgrade it as much as they want but the engine is and remains the problem. Their performance was lacking in hot and high conditions.


the engine is changed in upgrade boss

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## Aamir Hussain

The offer of an enhanced power plant was there even at the time of its hot & high testing phase out of Multan Aviation Base.

But PA did extensive eval in FATA, and in Baluchistan and returned the helo on account of:

Under powered engine, Climb rate falling off rapidly after 4,000 meters, lack of pilot safety armor, absence of MAWS, RWR, issues with slaving sight, Heat signature and dust sensitization of engine inlet/cowling. There were couple of other points, but cant divulge them here.

While most of the issues highlighted by PA were incorporated in the "Upgrade" the engine rating tests in field need to be done including the cuing and slaving sight. The difference between power plant of Z-10C and Atak 129 is roughly 11 Shp but the bleed off was much higher even after compensating for difference in take off weights. 

My 2C worth

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## LKJ86

doorstar said:


> Z-10ME incorporates a new, higher-output turboshaft 1200 kW engine compared with the Z-10's 935 kW.


And Z-20 about 10 tons is equipped with a more powerful engine.

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## thunderkaka

Aamir Hussain said:


> Under powered engine, Climb rate falling off rapidly after 4,000 meters, lack of pilot safety armour, absence of MAWS, RWR, issues with slaving sight, Heat signature and dust sensitization of engine inlet/cowling. There were couple of other points, but cant divulge them here.



Which helicopter are you referring to here, Z-10C or Atak 129?


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## Aamir Hussain

thunderkaka said:


> Which helicopter are you referring to here, Z-10C or Atak 129?


Z-10C and not Z-10ME

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## araz

Aamir Hussain said:


> You can say your piece without insulting anyone! The offer of an enhanced power plant was there even at the time of its hot& high testing phase out of Multan Aviation Base (Yes I do know the meaning of Hot & High too!!).
> 
> But PA did extensive eval in FATA, and in Balochistan and returned the helo on account of:
> 
> Under powered engine, Climb rate falling off rapidly after 4,000 meters, lack of pilot safety armour, absence of MAWS, RWR, issues with slaving sight, Heat signature and dust sensitization of engine inlet/cowling. There were couple of other points, but cant divulge them here.
> 
> While most of the issues highlighted by PA were incorporated in the "Upgrade" the engine rating tests in field need to be done including the cuing and slaving sight. The difference between powerplant of Z-10C and Atak 129 is roughly 11 Shp but the bleed off was much higher even after compensating for difference in take off weights.
> 
> My 2C worth and I do expect and in return give respect to fellow members who I do not agree with.


A great post. A pleasure to read posts which are informative coming from you .
Kind regards
A

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## Aamir Hussain

araz said:


> A great post. A pleasure to read posts which are informative coming from you .
> Kind regards
> A



Sir as always, it is a pleasure to see you active on the forum and read your insightful and honest evaluation of happenings around us. They might not be popular but they are the truth. 

I am on this Forum because of people like you and some others!

Warm regards,

Aamir

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## thunderkaka

Aamir Hussain said:


> Z-10C and not Z-10ME



Btw, did Pakistan army ever test Atak 129 and encounter any problems during trial?


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## Cool_Soldier

Love to see T 129 in Pak Army but still future of procurement is not clear.
Pakistan should also check Z 10 ME as alternative product available to us.


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## Aamir Hussain

Cool_Soldier said:


> Love to see T 129 in Pak Army but still future of procurement is not clear.
> Pakistan should also check Z 10 ME as alternative product available to us.


Agreed but PAA was not much impressed with the overall performance of the helo. Now an improved version is in, maybe they can do another round of testing.



Cool_Soldier said:


> Love to see T 129 in Pak Army but still future of procurement is not clear.
> Pakistan should also check Z 10 ME as alternative product available to us.


Sadly I am not privy to the Atak testing program. But I have heard that it was the best option out of what was available after AH 1Z Viper. PAA was and is gung ho on AH 1Z.


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## CHI RULES

Aamir Hussain said:


> Agreed but PAA was not much impressed with the overall performance of the helo. Now an improved version is in, maybe they can do another round of testing.
> 
> 
> Sadly I am not privy to the Atak testing program. But I have heard that it was the best option out of what was available after AH 1Z Viper. PAA was and is gung ho on AH 1Z.



Sir it's easy to blame defense related officials for bribes from US but still fact remains there that still their is no substitute of US technology even if it is older, the other countries like Turkey, China and Russia though trying to meet the capabilities of USA but still lack in certain areas.
In the past it was US technology which helped Pak to repel Russian/Afghan intruding jets in the past and in current times IAF is still pretty much threatened by the F16s.

Pakistan should try to get AH1z and if all attempts fail then they should go for heavy attack helicopter from Russia. The T129 or Z10 ME should be acquired to be used in combo with heavy ones. In my humble opinion considering new threats the A2A capabilities should also be there in any upcoming platform as Apache and Indian LCH are having this capability.

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## Mrc

V need helis now


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## Beast

Aamir Hussain said:


> Agreed but PAA was not much impressed with the overall performance of the helo. Now an improved version is in, maybe they can do another round of testing.
> 
> 
> Sadly I am not privy to the Atak testing program. But I have heard that it was the best option out of what was available after AH 1Z Viper. PAA was and is gung ho on AH 1Z.


Do take note T-129K is a 3.6tons Helo and lacking armour vs a 5tons Z-10. I doubt turkey has some super material that can make up for the extra 1.4tons of weight mostly going into armour the helo.

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## doorstar

Beast said:


> Do take note T-129K is a 3.6tons Helo and lacking armour vs a 5tons Z-10. I doubt turkey has some super material that can make up for the extra 1.4tons of weight mostly going into armour the helo.


 not only that but they are *NOT* allowed to sell it to Pakistan.

Pakistan is left with 3 choices
*America:*Bell AH-1Z Viper @ US$27 million + deals stopped midway +blackmailing and withholding parts and service at crucial moments.

*Russia:*Mi-25 and Mi-35, not available in any meaningful numbers
*
China:* Z 10 ME @ US$ 17 million, as many as needed, whenever wanted/required, never vulnerable to bharati lobbying

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## Great Janjua

doorstar said:


> not only that but they are *NOT* allowed to sell it to Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan is left with 3 choices
> *America:*Bell AH-1Z Viper @ US$27 million + deals stopped midway +blackmailing and withholding parts and service at crucial moments.
> 
> *Russia:*Mi-25 and Mi-35, not available in any meaningful numbers
> *
> China:* Z 10 ME @ US$ 17 million, as many as needed, whenever wanted/required, never vulnerable to bharati lobbying


What do you mean not allowed you crackhead the deal is done pilot training is gonna be in a few months


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## Sine Nomine

@Aamir Hussain @araz @Imran Khan 
What about South African Denel AH-2 Rooivalk?
It may be a costly but with complete ToT it seems promising.


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## araz

Beast said:


> Do take note T-129K is a 3.6tons Helo and lacking armour vs a 5tons Z-10. I doubt turkey has some super material that can make up for the extra 1.4tons of weight mostly going into armour the helo.


The problem was the engine. Other things may have been issues but minor ones. As long as the engines are uprated and suitable for the heavy helicopter, A TRIAL WILL MOST LIKELY BE CONDUCTED. Subsequent procurement will be on the basis of suitability of the platform in light of the new tests.
A



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> @Aamir Hussain @araz @Imran Khan
> What about South African Denel AH-2 Rooivalk?
> It may be a costly but with complete ToT it seems promising.


I know only that the programme has been halted and production siezed for some time due to lack of interest. So it is currently not an option.
A



Great Janjua said:


> What do you mean not allowed you crackhead the deal is done pilot training is gonna be in a few months


It remains a fact irrespective of your name calling that the Engines have not been approved for sale to PAA. So currently if the available information is true then the Helos are not approved for sale to us. The Turks were looking for alternate suppliers of Engines but with a changed engine it will require re testing.
A

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## cabatli_53

As a note, Italy has revealed the new design of 8ton AW-249 attack helicopter that Poland is planning to participate, While Turkiye is preparing to make maiden flight of 11ton Atak-2 in 2022.

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## Sine Nomine

araz said:


> I know only that the programme has been halted and production siezed for some time due to lack of interest. So it is currently not an option.
> A


@denel


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> @denel


Not correct, the project is still on going but at a much slower pace; upgrades are in flight right now. 

Rooivalk was offered to Turkey in the mid 90s' and was in the running against the european consortium; it had better features at the time but the Turks buckled under the pressure for consideration of EU memberships and other issues.

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## doorstar

araz said:


> It remains a fact irrespective of your name calling that the Engines have not been approved for sale to PAA. So currently if the available information is true then the Helos are not approved for sale to us. The Turks were looking for alternate suppliers of Engines but with a changed engine it will require re testing.


Thank you!

I do not for the life of me understand as to why no one here realizes that T-129 is a British/Italian machine with some vital Parts from America. Turks are nothing but glorified assemblers of it and can only sell it to the countries approved by the USA and UK/Italy. They only have a license to assemble it for the use of Turk forces, anything beyond that requires new licenses which won't easily be available because the real owners would like the profits for themselves rather than lose them to Turkey

the clues can be found in the first page of this here thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-armys-t-129-atak-helicopter-deal-updates-discussions.44640/

even if they now are manufacturing it under license (for their own use) rather than just assembling it, it still doesn't make them the owners of it.

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## xbat

doorstar said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I do not for the life of me understand as to why no one here realizes that T-129 is a British/Italian machine with some vital Parts from America. Turks are nothing but glorified assemblers of it and can only sell it to the countries approved by the USA and UK/Italy. They only have a license to assemble it for the use of Turk forces, anything beyond that requires new licenses which won't easily be available because the real owners would like the profits for themselves rather than lose them to Turkey
> 
> the clues can be find in the first page of this here thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-armys-t-129-atak-helicopter-deal-updates-discussions.44640/
> 
> even if they now are manufacturing it under license (for their own use) rather than just assembling it, it still doesn't make them the owners of it.


You are wrong! Turkey bought IP rights of that heli. Turkey can change anything on that heli and sell everyone. Except UK and Italy. Some part of heli is still being produced in Italy, engine is US-UK you know that. but heli is belong to Turkey. soon T129 will have its local engine.

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## doorstar

xbat said:


> You are wrong! Turkey bought IP rights of that heli. Turkey can change anything on that heli and sell everyone. Except UK and Italy. Some part of heli is still being produced in Italy, engine is US-UK you know that. but heli is belong to Turkey. soon T129 will have its local engine.


thanks for the update, a corroborating link will be much appreciated


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## Nasr

Pakistan should have gone with the Chinese WZ-10s, with conculsive specifications to the design of the helicopter gunships, tailored to Pakistan Army Aviation's needs. This would have allowed Pakistan Army to set-up facilities to build on ToT. A powerful friend in the North with whom Pakistan has deep ties with, Pakistan Army could've taken advantage of. Yet, a ridiculous deal was signed with Turkey for T-129s and Milgem Corvettes. 

I do not think Pakistan has learnt it's lessons from the past, where we have been subjected to sanctions and heavy lobbying by the enemy. It costed Pakistan during the wars in 1965 & 1971. Who came to Pakistan's rescue then? Yeah, it was China! Yet the thinking in our leadership seems to be rotting at the core, whereby we sideline the main advantage we have. 

Previous years, the argument used to be that China lacks in technological superiority in their military hardware. Yet, today we see China excelling far beyond any could have imagined. Instead of investing in joint-ventures with China, like we have with the JF-17s. We are running after marshmallows like T-129s.

Pakistan has not taken advantage of it's alliance with China. Worse still, Pakistan's leadership is not showing it's seriousness about developing strategic relations with Russia. Forget india's relationship with Russia. Forge one which surpasses any value india may hold with Russia. This is how strategies are won, by tactically out manuevering your enemy. 

With or without the WZ-10s, there is also Russia's formidable Ka-52 Black Shark and Mi-28 Havoc helicopter gunship that could eat the T-129 for breakfast. Pakistan already operates Mi-35 Hinds. We are just dragging our feet with the T-129s, which are engineless and toothless because they can are being sanctioned.

Now that is a word Pakistanis have easily forgotten .... SANCTIONS!! Ring a bell????

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## xbat

doorstar said:


> thanks for the update, a corroborating link will be much appreciated


from 2014
http://www.helipress.net/schede-583-military_helicopters_t129_atak_the_mangusta_made_in_turkey_video

*"It's a brand new project : Turkey owns the intellectual property rights and marketing, and can even export its version of the helicopter."*


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## doorstar

xbat said:


> from 2014
> http://www.helipress.net/schede-583-military_helicopters_t129_atak_the_mangusta_made_in_turkey_video
> 
> *"It's a brand new project : Turkey owns the intellectual property rights and marketing, and can even export its version of the helicopter."*


so delivery to Pakistan is imminent


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## V. Makarov

Nasr said:


> Pakistan should have gone with the Chinese WZ-10s, with conculsive specifications to the design of the helicopter gunships, tailored to Pakistan Army Aviation's needs. This would have allowed Pakistan Army to set-up facilities to build on ToT. A powerful friend in the North with whom Pakistan has deep ties with, Pakistan Army could've taken advantage of. Yet, a ridiculous deal was signed with Turkey for T-129s and Milgem Corvettes.
> 
> I do not think Pakistan has learnt it's lessons from the past, where we have been subjected to sanctions and heavy lobbying by the enemy. It costed Pakistan during the wars in 1965 & 1971. Who came to Pakistan's rescue then? Yeah, it was China! Yet the thinking in our leadership seems to be rotting at the core, whereby we sideline the main advantage we have.
> 
> Previous years, the argument used to be that China lacks in technological superiority in their military hardware. Yet, today we see China excelling far beyond any could have imagined. Instead of investing in joint-ventures with China, like we have with the JF-17s. We are running after marshmallows like T-129s.
> 
> Pakistan has not taken advantage of it's alliance with China. Worse still, Pakistan's leadership is not showing it's seriousness about developing strategic relations with Russia. Forget india's relationship with Russia. Forge one which surpasses any value india may hold with Russia. This is how strategies are won, by tactically out manuevering your enemy.
> 
> With or without the WZ-10s, there is also Russia's formidable Ka-52 Black Shark and Mi-28 Havoc helicopter gunship that could eat the T-129 for breakfast. Pakistan already operates Mi-35 Hinds. We are just dragging our feet with the T-129s, which are engineless and toothless because they can are being sanctioned.
> 
> Now that is a word Pakistanis have easily forgotten .... SANCTIONS!! Ring a bell????


You make a lot of sense. I dont know why army aviation would like to have Turk equipment even though military future of our country lies with China. 

China is making great strides in military tech. China will keep on adding new weapon systems to their helicopters where as same cannot be said for Turks.

However, I want to know more about your comparison between Russian copters and the new Turk ones. You seem to paint a very bleak picture of our decision.

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## kenyannoobie

denel said:


> Not correct, the project is still on going but at a much slower pace; upgrades are in flight right now.
> 
> Rooivalk was offered to Turkey in the mid 90s' and was in the running against the european consortium; it had better features at the time but the Turks buckled under the pressure for consideration of EU memberships and other issues.



The story of the Rooivalk tells me you guys are punching above your geopolitical weight shopping this excellent heavyweight gunship around-Malaysians,Turks and even the Brits have all liked it but turned it down-why? Johnny Brit said no when the US refused to share codes that would've allowed it to fire the Hellfire though some say the Mokopa is even better.
Imo,Denel should develop a lite entry level version like a heavier 530 MD minus all the fancy electro optics specifically for the 3rd world and Africa but with a cockpit armoured to resist 7.62 NATO at 50 m and a max ordnance payload of 1.5 T. A pair of .50 BMGs with a 1000 rounds each,2 19 tube 68 mm rocket launchers per wing stub or 2 9 tube 130 mm rocket launchers. Hopefully this will bring the unit cost to a max of 10 mn $. Frankly,its a very big ask for a RSA,still a developing nation despite strong belief otherwise to sell HW gunships,a function restricted to the planet's heavy hitters and now Turkey:*you'll ofc have noticed their engine issues?*


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## princefaisal

Is it possible to arrange the Rooivalk engines from Denel and install it on Pakistani T-129s?

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## denel

princefaisal said:


> Is it possible to arrange the Rooivalk engines from Denel and install it on Pakistani T-129s?


no. these engines are from the Oryx. this was deliberately done to keep synergies with the Oryx medium lift helo we have



kenyannoobie said:


> The story of the Rooivalk tells me you guys are punching above your geopolitical weight shopping this excellent heavyweight gunship around-Malaysians,Turks and even the Brits have all liked it but turned it down-why? Johnny Brit said no when the US refused to share codes that would've allowed it to fire the Hellfire though some say the Mokopa is even better.
> Imo,Denel should develop a lite entry level version like a heavier 530 MD minus all the fancy electro optics specifically for the 3rd world and Africa but with a cockpit armoured to resist 7.62 NATO at 50 m and a max ordnance payload of 1.5 T. A pair of .50 BMGs with a 1000 rounds each,2 19 tube 68 mm rocket launchers per wing stub or 2 9 tube 130 mm rocket launchers. Hopefully this will bring the unit cost to a max of 10 mn $. Frankly,its a very big ask for a RSA,still a developing nation despite strong belief otherwise to sell HW gunships,a function restricted to the planet's heavy hitters and now Turkey:*you'll ofc have noticed their engine issues?*


rafiki habari gani. hiyo ni matata ya mzungu 
back to English. 
We have been developing our own equipment for decades and cut reliance on external parties; exactly because of this nonsense of external engines etc etc; sanctions taught us the hard way never to rely on US or Europeans.
Across the continent, there is no need for gunships except in RSA or may be in Egypt which is why there was no lower tier; plus we were fighting the Cubans which were fielding Mi-24s at the time in Angola.

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## Dazzler

doorstar said:


> so delivery to Pakistan is imminent



Turks have assured timely deliveries of all 30 to Pakistan.

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## ZAC1

Dazzler said:


> Turks have assured timely deliveries of all 30 to Pakistan.


would u like to tell the dates? 
in my opinion pakistan should produce nuclear missiles as much as possible.world dnt want to sell weapons to us. sanctions, delays etc Story repeating


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## cabatli_53

V. Makarov said:


> China will keep on adding new weapon systems to their helicopters where as same cannot be said for Turks.



What are those new weapon systems China apply to their helicopters but Turks can not ?

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## Areesh

When these choppers would be delivered to Pakistan? 

Any dates?


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## doorstar

Areesh said:


> When these choppers would be delivered to Pakistan?
> 
> Any dates?


as far as I can see on the 25th of never, despite their claims to the contrary Turks do NOT have the authority to sell it to you (Americans and Europeans do).

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well once the new Turkish engine is complete , we will be free to import *abundant* supply of Helicopters

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## Nasr

V. Makarov said:


> You make a lot of sense. I dont know why army aviation would like to have Turk equipment even though military future of our country lies with China.



The approach the military is taking is of "_not having all their eggs in one basket._" It stems from the lessons drawn in the 1965/1971 Wars, where victory was within Pakistan's grasp and was stifled by having majority of our military hardware comprising of American origin. 1965 in particular, where Kashmir was attainable as Pakistan had acheived Air Dominance which would've allowed Pakistan Army to pierce through and sever india's connecting artery to the Vale. However, American sanctions hit us hard, crippling Pakistan Air Force's ability to maintain the momentum and Air Dominance. Without Air Dominance, Pakistan Army could not and would not be able to cut off india's supply-lines at Aknaur choke-point. 

Hence Pakistan Military adopted a two-pronged strategem. Whereby diversity in hardware was of primary importance and in the same breath, to work toward becoming self-reliant. The latter strategy gave birth to successful projects like *Al-Khalid* Main Battle Tank, *JF-17 Thunder* Combat Aircraft, *Agosta-90B* Submarines and *F-22P* Frigates. Whereas the former brought procurement diversification such as Swedish *Erieye* Airborne Early Warning aircraft, British *Griffon-2000* Hovercraft, Germany/France *RAS-72 Seaeagle* Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Italy *Spada-2000* Air Defense System and so on. 

So as you can see, the figures speak for themselves. 



> China is making great strides in military tech. China will keep on adding new weapon systems to their helicopters where as same cannot be said for Turks.



China has been able to harness the technology, by learning and studying the tech. This has made China least vulnerable to Western Sanctions. The approach that China has, is a very simple one, achieve your objectives, by any means necessary. And China has proven that it is not subject to Western Sanctions. In fact, the current trade war between China and America is proof of this stance. 

Turkey on the other hand, is not China, nor could it ever hope to emulate China, or Russia for that matter. Turkey has a great deal of dependence on the West, in terms of military hardware. As with any great power nation, dependency on "_*Core Military Hardware*_" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!



> However, I want to know more about your comparison between Russian copters and the new Turk ones. You seem to paint a very bleak picture of our decision.



For starters, the most crucial aspect of any acquisition for Pakistan, is that it needs to be "_immune to Western sanctions._" And the T-129, straight of the bat, has been hampered by American interference. Where the US Department of Defence has refused to issue export license to Turkey for the sale of 30 T-129 Atak helicopter gunships to Pakistan. 

The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engine, is jointly designed and manufactured between the American Honeywell Aerospace Co and British Rolls Royce Co. This engine is the power plant that flies the Turkish T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Without the engine, Turkey is now embarrassingly looking to find alternative power plant for its helo. Causing delays to the $1.5 billion deal that Pakistan signed on for 30 Atak helos.

https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol#1

Then as if things weren't bad enough for Turkey with the T-129 Atak engines, with US State Dept not issuing export license. There is the Turkish Military intervention in Syria. Dubbed the "*Olive Branch*" Peace Operation, Turkey launched an illegal ingress into Syrian territory to fight and ward-off CIA-Sponsored Kurdish insurgents, the YPG. With heavy Turkish military hardware rolling into Norther Syria, the fight was on. 

Not so long after Turkey's military invasion into Northern Syria, the Turkish military suffered the humiliating loss of it's brand spanking new, T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Shot down, by none other than the insurgent group whom Turkey defines as terrorists. Needless to say, the news was looked at with scrutiny, world wide. And this wasn't good publicity for the Turkish military industrial complex, which has grown in size and reputation, off late. 

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/02/turkish-t129-attack-helicopter-shot-down-afrin.html

Comparitively, the Kamov Ka-50 Black Shark and the Mil Mi-28 Havoc. Both Mil and Kamov are vastly experience helicopter designers and manufacturers. Both Ka-52 Aligators and Mi-28 Havocs were in live combat operations in the liberation of Palmyra, Syria. Mi-28s also are on active duty combat against Nusra terrorists, in Hama, Syria. Both helicopter gunship combat experience, under operator, Russian Military.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201903231073488604-mi28nm-helicopter-syria-russia/

https://tass.com/defense/933891

Elsewhere, Iraqi Military deployed Mi-28s in combat against ISIS, in Ramadi. Using the deadly gunship with effective results. 

So, there you have it, my analysis and conclusion on why Pakistan Military has made a mistake on procuring sanction prone, T-129 Atak from Turkey. Nothing against the Turks personally, but Turkey really needs to get itself out of the clutches of America.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Turkey is manufacturing it's own local Helicopter Engine


First locally made helicopter already delivered to Turkey

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## araz

Nasr said:


> The approach the military is taking is of "_not having all their eggs in one basket._" It stems from the lessons drawn in the 1965/1971 Wars, where victory was within Pakistan's grasp and was stifled by having majority of our military hardware comprising of American origin. 1965 in particular, where Kashmir was attainable as Pakistan had acheived Air Dominance which would've allowed Pakistan Army to pierce through and sever india's connecting artery to the Vale. However, American sanctions hit us hard, crippling Pakistan Air Force's ability to maintain the momentum and Air Dominance. Without Air Dominance, Pakistan Army could not and would not be able to cut off india's supply-lines at Aknaur choke-point.
> 
> Hence Pakistan Military adopted a two-pronged strategem. Whereby diversity in hardware was of primary importance and in the same breath, to work toward becoming self-reliant. The latter strategy gave birth to successful projects like *Al-Khalid* Main Battle Tank, *JF-17 Thunder* Combat Aircraft, *Agosta-90B* Submarines and *F-22P* Frigates. Whereas the former brought procurement diversification such as Swedish *Erieye* Airborne Early Warning aircraft, British *Griffon-2000* Hovercraft, Germany/France *RAS-72 Seaeagle* Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Italy *Spada-2000* Air Defense System and so on.
> 
> So as you can see, the figures speak for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> China has been able to harness the technology, by learning and studying the tech. This has made China least vulnerable to Western Sanctions. The approach that China has, is a very simple one, achieve your objectives, by any means necessary. And China has proven that it is not subject to Western Sanctions. In fact, the current trade war between China and America is proof of this stance.
> 
> Turkey on the other hand, is not China, nor could it ever hope to emulate China, or Russia for that matter. Turkey has a great deal of dependence on the West, in terms of military hardware. As with any great power nation, dependency on "_*Core Military Hardware*_" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!
> 
> 
> 
> For starters, the most crucial aspect of any acquisition for Pakistan, is that it needs to be "_immune to Western sanctions._" And the T-129, straight of the bat, has been hampered by American interference. Where the US Department of Defence has refused to issue export license to Turkey for the sale of 30 T-129 Atak helicopter gunships to Pakistan.
> 
> The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engine, is jointly designed and manufactured between the American Honeywell Aerospace Co and British Rolls Royce Co. This engine is the power plant that flies the Turkish T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Without the engine, Turkey is now embarrassingly looking to find alternative power plant for its helo. Causing delays to the $1.5 billion deal that Pakistan signed on for 30 Atak helos.
> 
> https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol#1
> 
> Then as if things weren't bad enough for Turkey with the T-129 Atak engines, with US State Dept not issuing export license. There is the Turkish Military intervention in Syria. Dubbed the "*Olive Branch*" Peace Operation, Turkey launched an illegal ingress into Syrian territory to fight and ward-off CIA-Sponsored Kurdish insurgents, the YPG. With heavy Turkish military hardware rolling into Norther Syria, the fight was on.
> 
> Not so long after Turkey's military invasion into Northern Syria, the Turkish military suffered the humiliating loss of it's brand spanking new, T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Shot down, by none other than the insurgent group whom Turkey defines as terrorists. Needless to say, the news was looked at with scrutiny, world wide. And this wasn't good publicity for the Turkish military industrial complex, which has grown in size and reputation, off
> http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/02/turkish-t129-attack-helicopter-shot-down-afrin.html
> 
> Comparitively, the Kamov Ka-50 Black Shark and the Mil Mi-28 Havoc. Both Mil and Kamov are vastly experience helicopter designers and manufacturers. Both Ka-52 Aligators and Mi-28 Havocs were in live combat operations in the liberation of Palmyra, Syria. Mi-28s also are on active duty combat against Nusra terrorists, in Hama, Syria. Both helicopter gunship combat experience, under operator, Russian Military.
> 
> https://sputniknews.com/military/201903231073488604-mi28nm-helicopter-syria-russia/
> 
> https://tass.com/defense/933891
> 
> Elsewhere, Iraqi Military deployed Mi-28s in combat against ISIS, in Ramadi. Using the deadly gunship with effective results.
> 
> So, there you have it, my analysis and conclusion on why Pakistan Military has made a mistake on procuring sanction prone, T-129 Atak from Turkey. Nothing against the Turks personally, but Turkey really needs to get itself out of the clutches of America.


Thank you for a good analysis of the prevailing situation with regards to PAA helo acquisition. I am sure PAA would have taken these factors into account. There are a few simplifications which I would humbly want to point out.
A. Russian products have not been available till fairly recently. Rosoboron export has stuck to its demand for hard cash and lack of flexibility with regards to weapons incorporation from foreign vendors. The cash factor is what is killing any prospects of a Russo Pak deal although there have always bèen doubts expressed about whether Russia will actually sell any advanced helos to Pak lands( let us at least count it as a factor).
B. The Chinese Z10 was trialled extensively in Pakistan and returned with a requirement to make changes. These are well highlighted. The Chinese have apparently made changes and it all depends on how the the Z10 ME now performs in hot and high temperatures for us to make a choice. However, barring depot level maintenance we will not be getting anything out of it. So our dependence will continue.
C. The T 129 offered Paklands a true opportunity to enter into helo manufacturing initially by manufacturing some parts and perhaps later by having a local assembly with limited manufacturing. This makes sense as Turk Cost of manufacturing remains high and therefore it is a mutually beneficial exercise. Knowing fully well that once you procure a product subsequent acquisitions from the same vendor become a norm we will probably enter in with some more production rights with ATAK 2. Even if we do not get the T129, due to engine problems we will eventually have a Turkish engine by 2023. This will increase our options with regards to having a secure mode of engine supply and local manufacturing and subassemblies which will be our step in to helo manufacturing.
D. With T129 we will get western compatible and standard equipment which is where we want to be when we start manufacturing. To date Western equipment gives a more robust and reliable performance as against Chinese equipment. Pak lands has been using aWestern equipment and so its forces are used to and demand the necessary standards which both the Chinese and the Russians fail to match or are now achieving parity with.PAC has had to make quite a few changes in the Thunder to get it to the srtandards it is today. The same has been the case with the F22Ps which Paklands acquired. Obviously Pakistan wants to incorporate western standards in its products and Turkey provides us that window into the West we have been wanting but being prevented from. This maybe the reason for the recent spate of fontracts going to Turkey from Paklands.
The Chinese contrary to public perception have recently not been as open to sharing tech as they had been previously. They want Paklands to buy finished products from them rather than achieve manufacturing rights. Even where local manufacturing contract have been gained the tech transfer has been minimal. Turkey in view of being a newer provider currently wants business and is eager to share products as with relative maturity of Pak manufacturing standards it find Paklands a good outsourcing medium for its products. There is mutual obvious benefit in this.
This iswhy I think Pakistan has made a few recent overtures towards Turkey. These remain my thoughts based on personal reading and assessment and can be entirely wrong. However this is how it makes sense to me to go Turkish in spite of a few setbacks.
A

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## Path-Finder

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Turkey is manufacturing it's own local Helicopter Engine
> 
> 
> First locally made helicopter already delivered to Turkey


this will have to be tested in Pakistan and along with other things it can be 3 years until T129 comes into service. a guesstimate!


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## V. Makarov

Thank


Nasr said:


> The approach the military is taking is of "_not having all their eggs in one basket._" It stems from the lessons drawn in the 1965/1971 Wars, where victory was within Pakistan's grasp and was stifled by having majority of our military hardware comprising of American origin. 1965 in particular, where Kashmir was attainable as Pakistan had acheived Air Dominance which would've allowed Pakistan Army to pierce through and sever india's connecting artery to the Vale. However, American sanctions hit us hard, crippling Pakistan Air Force's ability to maintain the momentum and Air Dominance. Without Air Dominance, Pakistan Army could not and would not be able to cut off india's supply-lines at Aknaur choke-point.
> 
> Hence Pakistan Military adopted a two-pronged strategem. Whereby diversity in hardware was of primary importance and in the same breath, to work toward becoming self-reliant. The latter strategy gave birth to successful projects like *Al-Khalid* Main Battle Tank, *JF-17 Thunder* Combat Aircraft, *Agosta-90B* Submarines and *F-22P* Frigates. Whereas the former brought procurement diversification such as Swedish *Erieye* Airborne Early Warning aircraft, British *Griffon-2000* Hovercraft, Germany/France *RAS-72 Seaeagle* Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Italy *Spada-2000* Air Defense System and so on.
> 
> So as you can see, the figures speak for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> China has been able to harness the technology, by learning and studying the tech. This has made China least vulnerable to Western Sanctions. The approach that China has, is a very simple one, achieve your objectives, by any means necessary. And China has proven that it is not subject to Western Sanctions. In fact, the current trade war between China and America is proof of this stance.
> 
> Turkey on the other hand, is not China, nor could it ever hope to emulate China, or Russia for that matter. Turkey has a great deal of dependence on the West, in terms of military hardware. As with any great power nation, dependency on "_*Core Military Hardware*_" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!
> 
> 
> 
> For starters, the most crucial aspect of any acquisition for Pakistan, is that it needs to be "_immune to Western sanctions._" And the T-129, straight of the bat, has been hampered by American interference. Where the US Department of Defence has refused to issue export license to Turkey for the sale of 30 T-129 Atak helicopter gunships to Pakistan.
> 
> The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engine, is jointly designed and manufactured between the American Honeywell Aerospace Co and British Rolls Royce Co. This engine is the power plant that flies the Turkish T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Without the engine, Turkey is now embarrassingly looking to find alternative power plant for its helo. Causing delays to the $1.5 billion deal that Pakistan signed on for 30 Atak helos.
> 
> https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol#1
> 
> Then as if things weren't bad enough for Turkey with the T-129 Atak engines, with US State Dept not issuing export license. There is the Turkish Military intervention in Syria. Dubbed the "*Olive Branch*" Peace Operation, Turkey launched an illegal ingress into Syrian territory to fight and ward-off CIA-Sponsored Kurdish insurgents, the YPG. With heavy Turkish military hardware rolling into Norther Syria, the fight was on.
> 
> Not so long after Turkey's military invasion into Northern Syria, the Turkish military suffered the humiliating loss of it's brand spanking new, T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Shot down, by none other than the insurgent group whom Turkey defines as terrorists. Needless to say, the news was looked at with scrutiny, world wide. And this wasn't good publicity for the Turkish military industrial complex, which has grown in size and reputation, off late.
> 
> http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/02/turkish-t129-attack-helicopter-shot-down-afrin.html
> 
> Comparitively, the Kamov Ka-50 Black Shark and the Mil Mi-28 Havoc. Both Mil and Kamov are vastly experience helicopter designers and manufacturers. Both Ka-52 Aligators and Mi-28 Havocs were in live combat operations in the liberation of Palmyra, Syria. Mi-28s also are on active duty combat against Nusra terrorists, in Hama, Syria. Both helicopter gunship combat experience, under operator, Russian Military.
> 
> https://sputniknews.com/military/201903231073488604-mi28nm-helicopter-syria-russia/
> 
> https://tass.com/defense/933891
> 
> Elsewhere, Iraqi Military deployed Mi-28s in combat against ISIS, in Ramadi. Using the deadly gunship with effective results.
> 
> So, there you have it, my analysis and conclusion on why Pakistan Military has made a mistake on procuring sanction prone, T-129 Atak from Turkey. Nothing against the Turks personally, but Turkey really needs to get itself out of the clutches of America.


 
Thank you so much for clarifying the situation and writing a good detailed report. Really appreciate it.

Dear @araz are saying that the Turk copters are sought in an effort to integrate western systems into them. I think China is at a stage where their weapon systems are formidable enough to be trusted against their western counterparts. Its time to divorce the West and work towards good military cooperation with China because now the west looks to Pakistan as an extension of China's political and economical might and sanctions of all equipment is almost certain in the future. You see, men from the deep state in the USA will always veto any further dealings with Pakistan.

As far as Turkey is concerned, @Nasr you are right to say that Turkey still lacks the manufacturing capabilities of "Core Military Hardware". Only great powers are manufacturing them. China is one of them, which can provide Pakistan, all across the board military support. 

Its understood that Pakistan cannot invest in making literally all the defence equipment the armed forces use, and hence its better to go for a core military hardware manufacturer because if critical defence equipment like Fighter Aircraft, attack helis, Tanks and artillery are sanctioned, it could change the game. However things like Italian SPADA, Swedish AWACS are "force multipliers" and not as vital in a battle hence, diversification in those areas can be desired.

No matter from wherever we buy our Defence equipment, we have to adjust it to our own liking (which has a tendency to be western like) just like we did with the JF-17 etc.... If we buy from Turkey, we just have to do a little amount of work to make it totally integrated into our military infrastructure environment ,however, more work has to be done if we buy stuff from China. But in the end, the pain that we take to "Westernize" Chinese equipment to some degree, is totally worth it in the long run.

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## cabatli_53

Nasr said:


> _*Core Military Hardware*_" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. *Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!*



I kindly asked a question to related member regarding his above claim about “China apply new weapon to helicopters but Turks can’t”, but It seems He can not talk what He is spreading but seeking support from members to feel better. Your analyse has also attracted my attention. Could you please open it up more about What are those “core military hardware” that sole great powers have knowledge to supply for radars, auxiliary ships, tanker aircrafts, air defense network..etc? Electronics? Software? Links? IC? Processors? If you support your claims with some reliable sources to enlighten me, It will be appreciated...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The T129 met the PAA's ops parameters, and the Turks were willing to sell those helicopters through a flexible layaway type financing program. If for whatever Turkey can't deliver, then the PAA doesn't send over money.

However, there are ways around the issue of the US blocking the CTS800. If the issue is Turkey (e.g., S-400, etc), then one option is to buy the engines separately and then assemble the T129 at PAC Kamra. The other option is to load an alternative, but proven engine. TAI is actually talking to Safran Group about this as we speak (source).

Is there a risk of a delay? Yes. But the IMF clearing out our national funds via austerity and repayments can also delay things further. As can some sudden CT/COIN surge somewhere. As can a fight with India over Kashmir.

Our best course of action moving forward, regardless of the T129 coming to fruition (but especially if it doesn't) is to work on producing ITAR-free helicopters in Pakistan.

If the T129 does land, that'll cover our high-altitude needs, but we need a heavyweight (9-10-ton class) to drive our anti-armor requirements. We need both an attack helicopter and a general purpose transport helicopter.

Options include:


Turkey's ATAK 2 + 10-ton Helicopter;
Denel Rooivalk Mk2 + Airbus Super Puma;
and the Chinese Z-20 and Heavy Attack Helicopter.

I'd prefer the Denel Rooivalk Mk2 and Airbus Super Puma. These are two tried and proven designs, with the Puma drawing on immense economies-of-scale and widespread use.

The Super Puma is also a legacy platform, but it hasn't seen as much adoption as Airbus hoped as of late, so there's some leverage to bring its production to Pakistan.

Alternatively, we could even look at a joint-project with Airbus and Denel to revive the Oryx as a modern platform. We can mirror what Airbus and South Korea's KAI did with the KUH-1 Surion, but develop a pure ITAR-free variant.

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## xbat

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Turkey is manufacturing it's own local Helicopter Engine
> 
> 
> First locally made helicopter already delivered to Turkey


Correction, first engine is locally manufactured GE engine for Turkish black hawk program.
second engine is local one, which will serve ATAK as a new engine. This engine will be delivered to TA in 2020. so we have 1 year of development and X year of full test on heli.

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## kenyannoobie

denel said:


> no. these engines are from the Oryx. this was deliberately done to keep synergies with the Oryx medium lift helo we have
> 
> 
> rafiki habari gani. hiyo ni matata ya mzungu
> back to English.
> We have been developing our own equipment for decades and cut reliance on external parties; exactly because of this nonsense of external engines etc etc; sanctions taught us the hard way never to rely on US or Europeans.
> *Across the continent, there is no need for gunships except in RSA or may be in Egypt* which is why there was no lower tier; plus we were fighting the Cubans which were fielding Mi-24s at the time in Angola.




*REALLY!?* Look at our map-bordering the Horn where there's always at least 1 LIC running involving militias and proxies.
*





*
Some of the national governments are unstable eg Ethiopia or prone to military adventurism like Uganda and have armour regts.

What about Nigeria where BH in technicals regularly overrun NA coy bases? Tbh,there are tactical and intel failures over there but still.


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## denel

kenyannoobie said:


> *REALLY!?* Look at our map-bordering the Horn where there's always at least 1 LIC running involving militias and proxies.
> *
> 
> View attachment 578841
> 
> *
> Some of the national governments are unstable eg Ethiopia or prone to military adventurism like Uganda and have armour regts.
> 
> What about Nigeria where BH in technicals regularly overrun NA coy bases? Tbh,there are tactical and intel failures over there but still.


Yes but none requires gunships like rooivalk. Nigeria is a basket case - they had to recruit ex. SANDF retired members to flush out Boko haram. Completely incapable.


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## kenyannoobie

denel said:


> *Yes but none requires gunships like rooivalk. * Nigeria is a basket case - they had to recruit ex. SANDF retired members to flush out Boko haram. Completely incapable.



Tbh,dedicated AHs are overkill for our BH/AQIS/rebels and various other raggedy rebels but there are anti armour demands in Africa-like I said some nation states especially in our region act like bandits. Fyi,our neighbour Museveni has gone to war at one time or other with the DRC,Rwanda,S Sudan and even the CAR with conventional mech forces,such as they are.


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## denel

kenyannoobie said:


> Tbh,dedicated AHs are overkill for our BH/AQIS/rebels and various other raggedy rebels but there are anti armour demands in Africa-like I said some nation states especially in our region act like bandits. Fyi,our neighbour Museveni has gone to war at one time or other with the DRC,Rwanda,S Sudan and even the CAR with conventional mech forces,such as they are.


ndiyo rafiki. museveni ni chafu sana, ana fanya kelele mingisana.
Our continent is blessed with shenzi leaders of epic proportions.

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## dBSPL

Imran Khan said:


> what will happen of choppers sir ?
> 
> 
> any sam less then 100km range is not worth for TOT we have tons of sams less then 100km ranges


Pakistan's first 2 helicopters are currently in the production line of TAI. In the first plan, 2020 was determined for ex-factory tests.

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## Imran Khan

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan's first 2 helicopters are currently in the production line of TAI. In the first plan, 2020 was determined for ex-factory tests.


wow its news for me sir can you shear more info of that choppers ?


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## Pakhtoon yum

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan's first 2 helicopters are currently in the production line of TAI. In the first plan, 2020 was determined for ex-factory tests.


What helicopters? Chinese or Turkish


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## CHI RULES

dBSPL said:


> Pakistan's first 2 helicopters are currently in the production line of TAI. In the first plan, 2020 was determined for ex-factory tests.



Expected date of delivery?


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## dBSPL

CHI RULES said:


> Expected date of delivery?


I don't know, brother. This issue is also a bit related to the engine import problem. As you know, the US has threatened to block importing LHTEC engines into Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan solved the problem. In this case, we can foresee the range 2020-2021 for initial deliveries.

But I want to repeat this: Pakistan's first two helicopters are currently in production line.

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## Haris Ali2140

dBSPL said:


> I don't know, brother. This issue is also a bit related to the engine import problem. As you know, the US has threatened to block importing LHTEC engines into Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan solved the problem. In this case, we can foresee the range 2020-2021 for initial deliveries.
> 
> But I want to repeat this: Pakistan's first two helicopters are currently in production line.


 Which helicopters??? Are you talking about T-129??

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## dBSPL

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Which helicopters??? Are you talking about T-129??



T-129P , yes.

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## Kabotar

dBSPL said:


> I don't know, brother. This issue is also a bit related to the engine import problem. As you know, the US has threatened to block importing LHTEC engines into Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan solved the problem. In this case, we can foresee the range 2020-2021 for initial deliveries.
> 
> But I want to repeat this: Pakistan's first two helicopters are currently in production line.



That's great news.


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## khanasifm

dBSPL said:


> I don't know, brother. This issue is also a bit related to the engine import problem. As you know, the US has threatened to block importing LHTEC engines into Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan solved the problem. In this case, we can foresee the range 2020-2021 for initial deliveries.
> 
> But I want to repeat this: Pakistan's first two helicopters are currently in production line.



So just a fuselage w/o engine 

With current sanctions now further delays Turkey is trying to build an itar free products now but not sure how long before gets one


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> So just a fuselage w/o engine
> 
> With current sanctions now further delays Turkey is trying to build an itar free products now but not sure how long before gets one


The option to do final assembly at PAC was always there, they might just activate it now. So, Pakistan will buy the LHTEC engines directly from the US/UK and, in turn, install them to the T129s locally.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The option to do final assembly at PAC was always there, they might just activate it now. So, Pakistan will buy the LHTEC engines directly from the US/UK and, in turn, install them to the T129s locally.



Sanction would prevent the engines to be used in Turkish helicopter.


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## ghazi52



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Austin Powers said:


> Sanction would prevent the engines to be used in Turkish helicopter.



Don't worry we will use Turkish made Engines


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Don't worry we will use Turkish made Engines



Turkey cannot make engine.


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## Affanakad0t.

ghazi52 said:


>





ghazi52 said:


>


Procedurement of pakistani t129 started?

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## mingle

Affanakad0t. said:


> Procedurement of pakistani t129 started?


Means engine is not an issue or that issue been resolved


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## GriffinsRule

These are probably Turkish army ones.


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## Affanakad0t.

mingle said:


> Means engine is not an issue or that issue been resolved


I asked. 
But there is a guy on milgem Corvette thread who said that TAI has started procedurement of 2 pakistani t129. Engine issue has been resolved.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

The TS1400 can be put into service as early as 2021.
It is unnecessary to wait for an earlier time. 
And yep, Turkey can make engine.

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## Affanakad0t.

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> The TS1400 can be put into service as early as 2021.
> It is unnecessary to wait for an earlier time.
> And yep, Turkey can make engine.


They are using it to replace their black hawk engines

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## python-000

WOW, great news my Turkish bro if its true keep it up...


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## dBSPL

Affanakad0t. said:


> They are using it to replace their black hawk engines


No, you're giving false information.

Under the scope of H-70 / T-70(new gen blackhawks): T700-TEI-701D turboshaft engine is produced under GE license. https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/turkish-utility-helicopter-program-tuhp2

Project that are being mentioned above, completly different program which is being developed for Turkey's indigenous helicopter programs. Also known as TS1400 and being developed for Atak-2 and 12t MTOW utulity helicopter program. https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/projects/turbosaft-motor-gelistirme-projesi

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Affanakad0t. said:


> They are using it to replace their black hawk engines




I think you mean that.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Affanakad0t. said:


> They are using it to replace their black hawk engines


The TS1400's power output belongs in the T129/T625 class. Turkey will develop another -- higher output -- engine family using what it learned from the TS1400, but that's a different (and later) project.

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## Affanakad0t.

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I think you mean that.


Sorry. My bad


RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I think you mean that.


Yes. My bad


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## Ark_Angel

Imran Khan said:


> wow its news for me sir can you shear more info of that choppers ?


T0 still not established. Re-Export License still stuck with the US DoD for Pakistani T-129s. During the Tender Turks had committed that the American Engine would not become an issue. However till date, T0 has not been established. We won't be seeing ATAKs in Pakistani skies soon. Otherwise as per the Contract the Turks had to Divert the first four Helis from their Own Production line to PAA which were to be used for Training and familiarisation by their Pakistani Counterparts.

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## Imran Khan

Ark_Angel said:


> T0 still not established. Re-Export License still stuck with the US DoD for Pakistani T-129s. During the Tender Turks had committed that the American Engine would not become an issue. However till date, T0 has not been established. We won't be seeing ATAKs in Pakistani skies soon. Otherwise as per the Contract the Turks had to Divert the first four Helis from their Own Production line to PAA which were to be used for Training and familiarisation by their Pakistani Counterparts.


Then lets go back to our best buddy

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## CHI RULES

dBSPL said:


> I don't know, brother. This issue is also a bit related to the engine import problem. As you know, the US has threatened to block importing LHTEC engines into Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan solved the problem. In this case, we can foresee the range 2020-2021 for initial deliveries.
> 
> But I want to repeat this: Pakistan's first two helicopters are currently in production line.


Sir it means that if production is started so one or another way the engine issue is resolved.

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## Readerdefence

Imran Khan said:


> Then lets go back to our best buddy


Hi well said sir looks like at the moment that’s the best option and as per jf17 feed back up gradations they must have done with Z10 also 
Thank you


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## mingle

CHI RULES said:


> Sir it means that if production is started so one or another way the engine issue is resolved.


All copies will be delivered 2021-22 as per Ahmed ibrahim tipu twitter which is quite authentic in news

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## Affanakad0t.

mingle said:


> All copies will be delivered 2021-22 as per Ahmed ibrahim tipu twitter which is quite authentic in news




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184176400238108672

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## blinder

See:
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...-team-of-experts-for-the-t625-helicopter-3546

According to this informative article, the TS1400 engine is first being developed for the T625 Gökbey helicopter and _can_ be adapted for the T-129. But, it will be introduced to T625 first, first flight foreseen 2021 and introduced into T625 production in the 2024-25 timeframe...

So, any T-129 Atak delivered before that would still have to be equipped with the LHTEC CTS800 engines, pending US approval of the export license; or am I missing something?

The alternative mentioned in above article, is to go French with SAFRAN Ardiden 1A or Arrano 1A engines. That is a bit awkward as that design lost out to LHTEC to power the T-129 in the first place. Also, this will require testing and integration too, let alone a commercial/contracting phase beforehand.

Do not get me wrong, I am not trying to second-guess Ahmad Ibrahim, just getting the options sorted out

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## Areesh

mingle said:


> All copies will be delivered 2021-22 as per Ahmed ibrahim tipu twitter which is quite authentic in news



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @Signalian

How is this possible without USA approval?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184176400238108672

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## HRK

Areesh said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @Signalian
> 
> How is this possible without USA approval?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184176400238108672


Everything is not clear but my understanding is Turkey is nit stopping the manufacturing of airframe as they might still be hopeful to get the approval for reexport to Pakistan, or there is a possibility that Pakistan might have get the approval for T-129 separately

So whatever the case is we at least have the confirmation about the production of T-129 airframe and BTW Tipu is not the source of this news but some Turkish publication and some of this ur Turkish friends have reported it here first

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> Everything is not clear but my understanding is Turkey is nit stopping the manufacturing of airframe as they might still be hopeful to get the approval for reexport to Pakistan, or there is a possibility that Pakistan might have get the approval for T-129 separately
> 
> So whatever the case is we at least have the confirmation about the production of T-129 airframe and BTW Tipu is not the source of this news but some Turkish publication and some of this ur Turkish friends have reported it here first


There are currently 3 alternative options on the table.

1. Pakistan buys the CTS800 separately from the US or UK, and then fits them into the T129 at PAC
2. Wait to integrate and test the T129 with a Safran turboshaft engine
3. Wait for the TEI TS1400 turboshaft engine

But IMO... I'd rather keep waiting and actually get in on the ATAK-2. Co-fund the program so that we get co-production (for all units), and induct those in numbers over the long-term.

Not too thrilled about the T129 or Z-10 as they're on the lighter side, and the fact that India could field 100+ similar types (HAL LCH).

I'd rather disrupt the balance and aim for 100+ heavies, if at the cost of a slower and longer-term induction rate. The good thing about the ATAK-2 is that it'll likely use the same engine and dynamic components as Turkey's 10-ton general purpose helicopter. So we can have both an attack helicopter and new mainstay transport helicopter for the next 50 years.

What the PAF is doing is IMO the right approach; shelve off-the-shelf purchases and focus on Project Azm. 

Sure, waiting isn't great for forum junkies like us, but to be brutally frank, we're not fighting a war anytime soon and our gov't/mil leadership will duck away from one unless it is thrust upon them by forces out of their control (see the current Kashmir situation).

And if we're going to sit idle, then let's at least invest in programs with far more long-term payoff and deterrence value.

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## Hexciter

Austin Powers said:


> Sanction would prevent the engines to be used in Turkish helicopter.



Who is asking about your op that no one cares in this forum?


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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are currently 3 alternative options on the table.
> 
> 1. Pakistan buys the CTS800 separately from the US or UK, and then fits them into the T129 at PAC
> 2. Wait to integrate and test the T129 with a Safran turboshaft engine
> 3. Wait for the TEI TS1400 turboshaft engine
> 
> But IMO... I'd rather keep waiting and actually get in on the ATAK-2. Co-fund the program so that we get co-production (for all units), and induct those in numbers over the long-term.
> 
> Not too thrilled about the T129 or Z-10 as they're on the lighter side, and the fact that India could field 100+ similar types (HAL LCH).
> 
> I'd rather disrupt the balance and aim for 100+ heavies, if at the cost of a slower and longer-term induction rate. The good thing about the ATAK-2 is that it'll likely use the same engine and dynamic components as Turkey's 10-ton general purpose helicopter. So we can have both an attack helicopter and new mainstay transport helicopter for the next 50 years.
> 
> What the PAF is doing is IMO the right approach; shelve off-the-shelf purchases and focus on Project Azm.
> 
> Sure, waiting isn't great for forum junkies like us, but to be brutally frank, we're not fighting a war anytime soon and our gov't/mil leadership will duck away from one unless it is thrust upon them by forces out of their control (see the current Kashmir situation).
> 
> And if we're going to sit idle, then let's at least invest in programs with far more long-term payoff and deterrence value.


I'd rather have PA being able to field a larger quantity of smaller attack helos then fewer larger ones. T-129 fits that bill very well, similar to our Cobras in service. We need to upgrade those airframes as well as avionics and weapons to make them more potent.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> I'd rather have PA being able to field a larger quantity of smaller attack helos then fewer larger ones. T-129 fits that bill very well, similar to our Cobras in service. We need to upgrade those airframes as well as avionics and weapons to make them more potent.


US and Turkey are friends again and sanctions are lifted So we will get our Helis.


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## Dreamer.

Were there any sanctions when US refused permission for those engines? Stop dreaming of US weapons at every small bit of news that isn't negative.


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## mingle

Dreamer. said:


> Were there any sanctions when US refused permission for those engines? Stop dreaming of US weapons at every small bit of news that isn't negative.


US has no issue to sell us weapons only issue is payments. Pak can import T129 engines directly from US and install on Heli in Pak.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> I'd rather have PA being able to field a larger quantity of smaller attack helos then fewer larger ones. T-129 fits that bill very well, similar to our Cobras in service. We need to upgrade those airframes as well as avionics and weapons to make them more potent.


I was thinking a large number of large ones actually, albeit at the cost of spreading the induction period to a much longer period of time (10-15 years). If we do continue with the T129, I'd allocate them to the areas in need of high-altitude support (create an integrated force using T129s, Fennecs, and a suitable transport helicopter). But for desert and plains, go heavy.

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## Tipu7

I interacted with few Turkish officials during Defence Port Turkey Expo. The information I received was,

1: There is no blockade of engines from United States

2: Pakistan has reportedly updated its requirements about T129 twice to thrice in past year, causing the delay.

3: Pakistan T129 are in production line, however, if PA continued to keep updating its requirements then deliveries might delay as far as 2023.

4: Pakistan is overhauling Cobras as stop gap measure.

5: T129 defeated Z10 in rigorous trials in Pakistan.

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## xbat

i was wondering what is thrice update? what did you guys want? a spaceship?


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## Areesh

Tipu7 said:


> I interacted with few Turkish officials during Defence Port Turkey Expo. The information I received was,
> 
> 1: There is no blockade of engines from United States
> 
> 2: Pakistan has reportedly updated its requirements about T129 twice to thrice in past year, causing the delay.
> 
> 3: Pakistan T129 are in production line, however, if PA continued to keep updating its requirements then deliveries might delay as far as 2023.
> 
> 4: Pakistan is overhauling Cobras as stop gap measure.
> 
> 5: T129 defeated Z10 in rigorous trials in Pakistan.



If this is true then PA needs to get its shit together and stop being an IAF

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## The Eagle

Tipu7 said:


> 3: Pakistan T129 are in production line, however, if PA continued to keep updating its requirements then deliveries might delay as far as 2023.



Then I would rather see T-129 V2 (heavy) in sight of PA. However, these updating requirements will be based upon the need to have a proper/capable T-129 with everything to get the job done.

@cabatli_53

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## Tipu7

The Eagle said:


> Then I would rather see T-129 V2 (heavy) in sight of PA. However, these updating requirements will be based upon the need to have a proper/capable T-129 with everything to get the job done.
> 
> @cabatli_53


We might opt for a batch of surplus Cobras from a brotherly country.

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## Philip the Arab

Tipu7 said:


> We might opt for a batch of surplus Cobras from a brotherly country.


Pakistan should upgrade old Cobras to this standard. 48 upgraded Cobras with 30 T-129s would be a deadly force against Indian armor.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag

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## Pakhtoon yum

xbat said:


> i was wondering what is thrice update? what did you guys want? a spaceship?


Yes, our aim lies beyond the stars.


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## khanasifm

Tipu7 said:


> I interacted with few Turkish officials during Defence Port Turkey Expo. The information I received was,
> 
> 1: There is no blockade of engines from United States
> 
> 2: Pakistan has reportedly updated its requirements about T129 twice to thrice in past year, causing the delay.
> 
> 3: Pakistan T129 are in production line, however, if PA continued to keep updating its requirements then deliveries might delay as far as 2023.
> 
> 4: Pakistan is overhauling Cobras as stop gap measure.
> 
> 5: T129 defeated Z10 in rigorous trials in Pakistan.



The main thing is weapons on platform, TOW has basically 3650 meter range on ground version not sure about air launched version, limiting is its
Wire guidance, needing Clear line of sight plus not being fire and forget plus not a top attack like latest missiles which have 8-10 km range does not allowing platform to be outside the range of short range manpsds and other short range defenses

If older cobra can get 8-10 kn weapons than who cares western front need is done deal it’s eastern front anti tank role now back

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## Tipu7

khanasifm said:


> The main thing is weapons on platform, TOW has basically 3650 meter range on ground version not sure about air launched version, limiting is its
> Wire guidance, needing Clear line of sight plus not being fire and forget plus not a top attack like latest missiles which have 8-10 km range does not allowing platform to be outside the range of short range manpsds and other short range defenses


@Signalian @Quwa
Pakistani Cobras were meant to carry TOW I/II family of ATGMs but were updated to carry locally made Baktar Shikan (HJ-8).

Now Pakistan is no longer producing Baktar Shikan but will start domestic production of _new 3rd Gen NLOS F&F ATGM_ sourced from a close Non-Turkish allay in near future.

Since Pakistan has not acquired any Turkish ATGM for land based units, should we assume that Pakistan wants to equip its T129 with _THAT_ ATGM?

Thus the change in requirements, and thus the delays in T129 deliveries.

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## Philip the Arab

khanasifm said:


> The main thing is weapons on platform, TOW has basically 3650 meter range on ground version not sure about air launched version, limiting is its
> Wire guidance, needing Clear line of sight plus not being fire and forget plus not a top attack like latest missiles which have 8-10 km range does not allowing platform to be outside the range of short range manpsds and other short range defenses
> 
> If older cobra can get 8-10 kn weapons than who cares western front need is done deal it’s eastern front anti tank role now back


Pakistan should get same update as Jordan which adds new sensors, glass cockpit, APKWS, and Hellfire capabilities putting on close to AH-1Z capabilities. It could be in PA service for 20+ more years then without upgrade.
https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/modernised-cobras-give-rjaf-extra-bite.html



Tipu7 said:


> @Signalian @Quwa
> Pakistani Cobras were meant to carry TOW I/II family of ATGMs but were updated to carry locally made Baktar Shikan (HJ-8).
> 
> Now Pakistan is no longer producing Baktar Shikan but will start domestic production of _new 3rd Gen NLOS F&F ATGM_ sourced from a close Non-Turkish allay in near future.
> 
> Since Pakistan has not acquired any Turkish ATGM for land based units, should we assume that Pakistan wants to equip its T129 with _THAT_ ATGM?
> 
> Thus the change in requirements, and thus the delays in T129 deliveries.


Cobras can be equipped with Hellfires like Jordanian upgrade from Orbital ATK. With MX-15D, glass cockpit, APKWS, and Hellfires the capabilities of the upgraded Cobras would be close to AH-1Z and therefor close to T-129.
https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/modernised-cobras-give-rjaf-extra-bite.html

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was thinking a large number of large ones actually, albeit at the cost of spreading the induction period to a much longer period of time (10-15 years). If we do continue with the T129, I'd allocate them to the areas in need of high-altitude support (create an integrated force using T129s, Fennecs, and a suitable transport helicopter). But for desert and plains, go heavy.





Tipu7 said:


> We might opt for a batch of surplus Cobras from a brotherly country.


Same brotherly country has surplus F16s as well also Japan has surplus cobras


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## Philip the Arab

mingle said:


> Same brotherly country has surplus F16s as well also Japan has surplus cobras


Jordan maybe?

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## mingle

Philip the Arab said:


> Jordan maybe?


Yes Ur right

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Philip the Arab said:


> Pakistan should get same update as Jordan which adds new sensors, glass cockpit, APKWS, and Hellfire capabilities putting on close to AH-1Z capabilities. It could be in PA service for 20+ more years then without upgrade.
> https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/modernised-cobras-give-rjaf-extra-bite.html
> 
> 
> Cobras can be equipped with Hellfires like Jordanian upgrade from Orbital ATK. With MX-15D, glass cockpit, APKWS, and Hellfires the capabilities of the upgraded Cobras would be close to AH-1Z and therefor close to T-129.
> https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/modernised-cobras-give-rjaf-extra-bite.html



TAI already has a cobra modernization package with Aselsan. It uses the same avionics and flir as T129. Why would a country ordering 30 t129s prefer someone else instead of TAI ?

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## The Eagle

Tipu7 said:


> We might opt for a batch of surplus Cobras from a brotherly country.



That sale was always our interest but my intention was in regard to possible delay for T-129 and PA updating list.


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## Philip the Arab

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> TAI already has a cobra modernization package with Aselsan. It uses the same avionics and flir as T129. Why would a country ordering 30 t129s prefer someone else instead of TAI ?


I don't know? It might be harder to get permission for Turkish upgrade over American upgrade for Pakistan.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Areesh said:


> If this is true then PA needs to get its shit together and stop being an IAF


5th I can confirm. I was told this by Turk official in IDEAS 2018



Philip the Arab said:


> Pakistan should upgrade old Cobras to this standard. 48 upgraded Cobras with 30 T-129s would be a deadly force against Indian armor.
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag


You would need US permission for Cobras


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## Philip the Arab

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> 5th I can confirm. I was told this by Turk official in IDEAS 2018
> 
> 
> You would need US permission for Cobras


It's an American upgrade so of course you would need permission for the upgrade.


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## Imran Khan

xbat said:


> i was wondering what is thrice update? what did you guys want? a spaceship?


we buy choppers after 42 years sir and we will use these T-129 next 40 years i am sure

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## Tipu7

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> TAI already has a cobra modernization package with Aselsan. It uses the same avionics and flir as T129. Why would a country ordering 30 t129s prefer someone else instead of TAI ?


If you can kindly share more details and pics (HD) about this upgrade then it will be a favor.


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## GriffinsRule

Tipu7 said:


> If you can kindly share more details and pics (HD) about this upgrade then it will be a favor.



These Cobras are of Royal Bahrain Air Force, upgraded by under the deal signed in 2015 with TAI for $70MM USD. The first upgraded AH-1F made its maiden flight in September 2017 and the last helicopter will be upgraded and delivered by end of 2020. The picture posted above it from 2018.
Since the relations between SA and Turkey are not that great now, and Bahrain is in the Saudi camp, both sides are not going to be sharing much in terms of details. However the upgrade consists of avionics and displays already integrated in the T129 and the cockpit will be NVG compatible. Roketsan's 2.75inch CIRIT laser-guided ATGMs would also be integrated.

This was phase 1 of Bahrain's modernization plans. Under phase two, they were to acquire an additional new helicopter and T129 was a competitor but ended up losing out to the AH-1Z in 2016.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-to-upgrade-bahrains-cobra-attack-helicopters.382485/





There is a competing upgrade from the US for AH-1Fs that the Jordanians opted for.
https://news.northropgrumman.com/ne...llc-and-northrop-grumman-begin-flight-testing

Will be interesting to see which route PA will take in this regard, given that it planned to have both AH-1Zs and T-129s in its inventory.

Looking for more pictures of these two upgraded Cobras, came across this interesting link. I am sure PA would have taken this particular example gladly but it went to an underwater museum in the Red Sea. Thanks a LOT Jordan! haha
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28509558/underwater-military-museum/

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## Path-Finder

GriffinsRule said:


> These Cobras are of Royal Bahrain Air Force, upgraded by under the deal signed in 2015 with TAI for $70MM USD. The first upgraded AH-1F made its maiden flight in September 2017 and the last helicopter will be upgraded and delivered by end of 2020. The picture posted above it from 2018.
> Since the relations between SA and Turkey are not that great now, and Bahrain is in the Saudi camp, both sides are not going to be sharing much in terms of details. However the upgrade consists of avionics and displays already integrated in the T129 and the cockpit will be NVG compatible. Roketsan's 2.75inch CIRIT laser-guided ATGMs would also be integrated.
> 
> This was phase 1 of Bahrain's modernization plans. Under phase two, they were to acquire an additional new helicopter and T129 was a competitor but ended up losing out to the AH-1Z in 2016.
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-to-upgrade-bahrains-cobra-attack-helicopters.382485/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a competing upgrade from the US for AH-1Fs that the Jordanians opted for.
> https://news.northropgrumman.com/ne...llc-and-northrop-grumman-begin-flight-testing
> 
> Will be interesting to see which route PA will take in this regard, given that it planned to have both AH-1Zs and T-129s in its inventory.
> 
> Looking for more pictures of these two upgraded Cobras, came across this interesting link. I am sure PA would have taken this particular example gladly but it went to an underwater museum in the Red Sea. Thanks a LOT Jordan! haha
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28509558/underwater-military-museum/


there was a video of cobra being rebuilt in Kamara from this year! I can't find it.

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## khanasifm

Path-Finder said:


> there was a video of cobra being rebuilt in Kamara from this year! I can't find it.



Pac just did wiring upgrade, in reality 20 cobras were delivered for spares and another 20 in rebuilt flight status including some from Jordan. the ones for spares were complete aircraft with all wiring cut off , pak looks like did a pilot and recovered the ones delivered for spares, all or some into flight status  

The older cobras were made night capable with night system the newer were not not sure if now all are upgraded 


C-NITE 


https://books.google.com/books/about/Army.html?id=bzdEAQAAIAAJ

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## khanasifm



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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 586209
> 
> 
> View attachment 586210
> 
> 
> View attachment 586211


First of, that Hughes engineer looks like Atta Ullah Essa Khelvi =D
Second, the C-NITE system is from the 70s era and needs to be replaced with updated FLIR and targeting sights. There are a lot of options to pick from out there.

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Thus the change in requirements, and thus the delays in T129 deliveries.


T-129 for PA has more of other issues (like engine) than an ATGM integration. The gunship can be inducted first and then new ATGM can then be deployed on it. Options of TOW or HELLFIRE or UMTAS are there.

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## nomi007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are currently 3 alternative options on the table.
> 
> 1. Pakistan buys the CTS800 separately from the US or UK, and then fits them into the T129 at PAC
> 2. Wait to integrate and test the T129 with a Safran turboshaft engine
> 3. Wait for the TEI TS1400 turboshaft engine
> 
> But IMO... I'd rather keep waiting and actually get in on the ATAK-2. Co-fund the program so that we get co-production (for all units), and induct those in numbers over the long-term.
> 
> Not too thrilled about the T129 or Z-10 as they're on the lighter side, and the fact that India could field 100+ similar types (HAL LCH).
> 
> I'd rather disrupt the balance and aim for 100+ heavies, if at the cost of a slower and longer-term induction rate. The good thing about the ATAK-2 is that it'll likely use the same engine and dynamic components as Turkey's 10-ton general purpose helicopter. So we can have both an attack helicopter and new mainstay transport helicopter for the next 50 years.
> 
> What the PAF is doing is IMO the right approach; shelve off-the-shelf purchases and focus on Project Azm.
> 
> Sure, waiting isn't great for forum junkies like us, but to be brutally frank, we're not fighting a war anytime soon and our gov't/mil leadership will duck away from one unless it is thrust upon them by forces out of their control (see the current Kashmir situation).
> 
> And if we're going to sit idle, then let's at least invest in programs with far more long-term payoff and deterrence value.


what is your opinion about Klimov VK-2500 engine, as an alternative ?

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## Ali_Baba

khanasifm said:


> the ones for spares were complete aircraft with all wiring cut off , pak looks like did a pilot and recovered the ones delivered for spares, all or some into flight status
> View attachment 586208



Odd. Did Jordan do this on instructions from the USA? I would have thought that they would be sold, "as is"..



Philip the Arab said:


> It's an American upgrade so of course you would need permission for the upgrade.



The problem with the PAA AH-1Fs is their usage, and not just their "age".. they have been heavily used in the last 15years, so the question is how much airframe life is left, and can they be re-zero'ed effectively for an upgrade???

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## cabatli_53

The Eagle said:


> Then I would rather see T-129 V2 (heavy) in sight of PA. However, these updating requirements will be based upon the need to have a proper/capable T-129 with everything to get the job done.
> 
> @cabatli_53




I believe The LHTEC engine will be received for T-129 without meeting any problem but, If US congress put an obstacle in front of us, then We might proceed our road with Atak-2 pratform which is going to be operational by 2023. A national engine development program is announced for Atak-2 but I hope the development timeline of turboshaft will catch the prototypes of Atak-2.

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## cabatli_53

Kotil: Turkey started developing a new attack helicoptet called T-629 which is going to have a weigh around T-129 and Atak-2.

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## The Eagle

cabatli_53 said:


> Kotil: Turkey started developing a new attack helicoptet called T-629 which is going to have a weigh around T-129 and Atak-2.



Can you share more details? design, weaponry etc wise.
Thanks

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## cabatli_53

T-629 will have a weight of 6+t. Acc to Kotil, The design activities were completed and The test flight will be done in 1 years. I believe T-629 will be the helicopter that is mentioned as T-129 Block-2. A modified T-129 with better armor protection I believe.

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## Ahmet Pasha

So it is different from ATAK2??


cabatli_53 said:


> T-629 will have a weight of 6+t. Acc to Kotil, The design activities were completed and The test flight will be done in 1 years. I believe T-629 will be the helicopter that is mentioned as T-129 Block-2. A modified T-129 with better armor protection I believe.


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## CAN_TR

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629 will have a weight of 6+t. Acc to Kotil, The design activities were completed and The test flight will be done in 1 years. I believe T-629 will be the helicopter that is mentioned as T-129 Block-2. A modified T-129 with better armor protection I believe.



I think it's more a armed version of T-625 (Gökbey).

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## cabatli_53

CAN_TR said:


> I think it's more a armed version of T-625 (Gökbey).




I don’t suppose TAI will give a new name to T-625 cause of making it armed bro. Just call it T-625B/C to describe armed variant like Hürkuş. TAI has been evaluating a ITAR free modified (nose section) T-129 atak with a weight of 6 ton. I think It is T-629.

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## CAN_TR

Makes sense, that means T-629 is basically a new designed T-129 in 6 ton category and ATAK-II (10 ton) is a heavier T-629.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629 will have a weight of 6+t. Acc to Kotil, The design activities were completed and The test flight will be done in 1 years. I believe T-629 will be the helicopter that is mentioned as T-129 Block-2. A modified T-129 with better armor protection I believe.


So, basically, if the US hammers the Pakistani T129 deal, then Pakistan could get the T-629.

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So, basically, if the US hammers the Pakistani T129 deal, then Pakistan could get the T-629.




Bro, There are two consideration for T-629. I and some others think that T-629 will be based on existing T-129 with modified fuselage and improved capabilities. Other group predicts that T-629 will be based on utility helo T-625 but to be armed. In utility helo name coding T-625; 6:ton; 2:turboshaft; 5 rotor blade but I predict that T-629; 6:ton, 2: turboshaft; 9: generation code adressing as being the newer generation of T-129 platform(last digit). In this aspect, ITAR-free T-129 (T-629)with modified nose maybe be the solution Pakistan and Turkiye are likely working on.

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## cabatli_53

T-629






Gökbey rotor and transmission
TS-1400 national turboshaft engine
Improved weapon paylod
Hiden ammo storage
New generation network centric avionics
Advanced EW suit
 New place under the fuselage for indigenous 20mm gatling gun

We will see this helicopter (T-629) with technical configuration told above. An attack helicopter based on Gökbey rotor and transmission was the first idea TAI bring forward but later the project evolved to develop a heavy class attack helicopter with a name of Atak-2 but It seems TAI has never given up its ambitious to create this 6t heli from the beggining. 

Atak-2 with 30mm gun will have a MTOW up to 12t.

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## Shabi1

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629 will have a weight of 6+t. Acc to Kotil, The design activities were completed and The test flight will be done in 1 years. I believe T-629 will be the helicopter that is mentioned as T-129 Block-2. A modified T-129 with better armor protection I believe.


T-129 has two variants.
T-129A. Is recon version which can use cannon and unguided rockets only.

T-129B. Multirole version capable of using guided munitions.

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## Khagan1923

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629
> View attachment 586558
> 
> 
> Gökbey rotor and transmission
> TS-1400 national turboshaft engine
> Improved weapon paylod
> Hiden ammo storage
> New generation network centric avionics
> Advanced EW suit
> New place under the fuselage for indigenous 20mm gatling gun
> 
> We will see this helicopter (T-629) with technical configuration told above. An attack helicopter based on Gökbey rotor and transmission was the first idea TAI bring forward but later the project evolved to develop a heavy class attack helicopter with a name of Atak-2 but It seems TAI has never given up its ambitious to create this 6t heli from the beggining.
> 
> Atak-2 with 30mm gun will have a MTOW up to 12t.
> View attachment 586559



I think TAI will redesign ATAK-2.

Seeing the way other companies are going I think ATAK-2 current design will be outdated by the time it goes into production in terms of payload, speed, range.

I think they will present a new design incorporating NG details ( Retractable Gears, Internal Weapon Stations) which would push it back a couple years, T-629 would be hold over with heavier payload and better armor until ATAK-2 goes into production. 

Because otherwise this doesn't make any sense unless we all are getting something wrong.

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## Path-Finder

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629
> View attachment 586558
> 
> 
> Gökbey rotor and transmission
> TS-1400 national turboshaft engine
> Improved weapon paylod
> Hiden ammo storage
> New generation network centric avionics
> Advanced EW suit
> New place under the fuselage for indigenous 20mm gatling gun
> 
> We will see this helicopter (T-629) with technical configuration told above. An attack helicopter based on Gökbey rotor and transmission was the first idea TAI bring forward but later the project evolved to develop a heavy class attack helicopter with a name of Atak-2 but It seems TAI has never given up its ambitious to create this 6t heli from the beggining.
> 
> Atak-2 with 30mm gun will have a MTOW up to 12t.
> View attachment 586559


is there 1600,1800 and 2000 hp engine being considered?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> is there 1600,1800 and 2000 hp engine being considered?


I believe TEI's goal is to develop a family engines around the TS1400 technology so that Turkish Aerospace's 10 ton general purpose helicopter gets a domestic engine.

If the T629 is a reworked ATAK, I'd be very interested. Sure, it won't be heavy like the ATAK-2, but I imagine, it'll be more affordable for fielding in numbers.

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## HAIDER

Shabi1 said:


> T-129 has two variants.
> T-129A. Is recon version which can use cannon and unguided rockets only.
> 
> T-129B. Multirole version capable of using guided munitions.


PA, Dhamyal base trainer said, we are in urgent need of fleet for Afghan border deployment,due to constant disturbance from Afghanistan. It's been linger for the last 10 years. Chinese helicopter failed test. Specially harness get moisture at certain alleviation. Some sensors stop working.

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I believe TEI's goal is to develop a family engines around the TS1400 technology so that Turkish Aerospace's 10 ton general purpose helicopter gets a domestic engine.
> 
> If the T629 is a reworked ATAK, I'd be very interested. Sure, it won't be heavy like the ATAK-2, but I imagine, it'll be more affordable for fielding in numbers.




That’s true. TS-1400 core turbine will be a base to develop a turboshaft engine family to power up new projects. Atak-2 and 10t utility helicopters will use same engine, transmission and rotor; on the other hand, T-629 Attack and T-625 utility helicopters will have common sections mentioned above. However, T-629 will be the ITAR free attack helicopter of TUSAŞ which is going to strengten the hands of Turkish industry against the sanction cards of US and West. She has more advanced features, better avionics, more payload, MMW integration and hidden EW sensors inside fuselage. Munition box will be hiden inside the fuselage as well but First of all, We should succeed to develop TS-1400 engines in a short time. Otherwise, We will keep begging US and Europe to draw our roadway.

That is the future !

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## The Eagle

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629
> View attachment 586558
> 
> 
> Gökbey rotor and transmission
> TS-1400 national turboshaft engine
> Improved weapon paylod
> Hiden ammo storage
> New generation network centric avionics
> Advanced EW suit
> New place under the fuselage for indigenous 20mm gatling gun
> 
> We will see this helicopter (T-629) with technical configuration told above. An attack helicopter based on Gökbey rotor and transmission was the first idea TAI bring forward but later the project evolved to develop a heavy class attack helicopter with a name of Atak-2 but It seems TAI has never given up its ambitious to create this 6t heli from the beggining.
> 
> Atak-2 with 30mm gun will have a MTOW up to 12t.
> View attachment 586559



What I sense, is something as what both of us did with Milgem class but of Pakistan need, changes & upgrades.

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## Ahmet Pasha

So will there still be a attack version of Gökbey. What about Kiowa like scout helo based on Gökbey?

AvRID should think about how we can partner up with Turks on helo manufacturing and grass root development in Pakistan. There is already a sentiment of cooperation regarding TFX and Project AZM. 

If this can be realized we will be able to have a good, reliable family of helicopters with shared parts and systems. From light utility to attack and everything in between.

Pakistan cannot afford to keep doling out precious forex to already rich countries.

Either make our own entirely. Or form JVs like we did with the JF17 programme.

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## cabatli_53

T-129 Atak Phase-II first flight !

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## polanski

CAATSA is imminent on Turkey. Pakistan Army's T-129 maybe jeopardized. America will target Turkish defense industry and defense exports. Pakistan's may look towards AH-64 Apache with South Korean fuselage and wings but assembled in America. 

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ton-implement-caatsa-sanctions-on-turkey-now/


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## Haris Ali2140

polanski said:


> CAATSA is imminent on Turkey. Pakistan Army's T-129 maybe jeopardized. America will target Turkish defense industry and defense exports. Pakistan's may look towards AH-64 Apache with South Korean fuselage and wings but assembled in America.
> 
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ton-implement-caatsa-sanctions-on-turkey-now/


There is no mention of caatsa implemention in the article or on the news.


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## time pass

Turkish Defense Industry will soon be hit by CAATSA sanctions. Turkey lost $9B work order for F-35 parts, *now may lose $1.2B order from Pakistan due to CAATSA. Turkey may not be able to source engine and armament for T-129. *Turkey will also lose multi billion dollars SOM cruise missile contract.

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ton-implement-caatsa-sanctions-on-turkey-now/


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## nomi007

time pass said:


> Turkish Defense Industry will soon be hit by CAATSA sanctions. Turkey lost $9B work order for F-35 parts, *now may lose $1.2B order from Pakistan due to CAATSA. Turkey may not be able to source engine and armament for T-129. *Turkey will also lose multi billion dollars SOM cruise missile contract.
> 
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ton-implement-caatsa-sanctions-on-turkey-now/


We have to find an alternative engines
russian or & european version for T-129

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## time pass

nomi007 said:


> We have to find an alternative engines
> russian or & european version for T-129



Nope .... we should now opt to Z10s ....


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## dBSPL

wish ... may ... could be... recommended... Don't be the fish on their plate.

In fact, F-35 subsystem supplies will continue until March 2020. Even deliveries increased around 20% cases, in response to Turkey's potential outof program. Just one week ago, global sales director of Sikorsky helicopters joined the T-70's roll-out ceremony produced in Turkey. Also T700D engine are produced in Turkey with around 60% domestic contribition. What happens if this program stops? Turkey has already completed the ToT stage, include gearbox and engine, if no T70 so theres Gökbey project is continue. However, Sikorsky could be suffers a loss of sales of at least 217(108+109) helicopters, if T-70 program stopped by caatsa. Unlike some jerks in the Senate, the US defense companies are working in favor of Turkey.

The news is full of bullshit, no need to mention one by one.

The style of the news is informal and it looks like a blog post with wet dreams of an anonymous author.

The F-35 and S400 equations are difficult to solve as everyone knows. However, there is also a question mark about this aircraft actually how much Turkey wants.

Everything beyond that is intended for speculation and have purposes about desired Turkey perception .

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## nomi007

time pass said:


> Nope .... we should now opt to Z10s ....


Young man PAA already rejected Z-10 because of service issues.
We have higher standards

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## mingle

polanski said:


> CAATSA is imminent on Turkey. Pakistan Army's T-129 maybe jeopardized. America will target Turkish defense industry and defense exports. Pakistan's may look towards AH-64 Apache with South Korean fuselage and wings but assembled in America.
> 
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ton-implement-caatsa-sanctions-on-turkey-now/


Did they put sanctions on India???

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## Dazzler

mingle said:


> Did they put sanctions on India???



Do they, ever?

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## xbat

actually Turkey can make/manufacture sikorsky engine from scratch now! We have single crystal tech. as for ATAK engine, TEI will handover first engines to TAI to integrate heli next year. it is 1500hp engine, much powerful than Honeywell engine.

my prediction is that US will hold demand of enginesfor Pakistan until last minute and then they release the sale when Turkish engine ready.


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## time pass

nomi007 said:


> Young man PAA already rejected Z-10 because of service issues.
> We have higher standards



Okay ... Old Man ... then what are the options ...


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## Zulfiqar

T-129s will come. One day or another.

Our future involvement in such procurement if any will be strategic with offset type clause. We have that opportunity with T-129 and its future variants (ATAK-II e.t.c)

I am not sure we could get similar evolution with Z-10 platform.

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## dBSPL

Highlights from the haberturk interview of TEI General Director Prof.Dr.Mahmut Faruk Akşit:

- We completed the jet engine core 2 years ago. We've gone through hundreds of tests, learned a lot. We reduced fuel consumption, increased power.

- 1500 hp engine assembly is finished, manufacturing phase continues. We will deliver it for use in Gökbey utulity helicopter within a year.

- We have proven ourselves in the world in producing core engines. We are taking our steps on the way to MMU by making it bigger.

- We created our own library of Air Engines. Things have become easier.

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## Great Janjua

time pass said:


> Nope .... we should now opt to Z10s ....


You and your boyfriend Z10 are not going to be inducted


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## Cornered Tiger

We have committed to Atak, We will remain committed, no matter what will be the outcome. Mark these words.

And hopefully Atak will be in Pakistan soon.

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## time pass

Great Janjua said:


> You and your boyfriend Z10 are not going to be inducted



seems you & your boy friend got kicked

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## Turan09

Cornered Tiger said:


> We have committed to Atak, We will remain committed, no matter what will be the outcome. Mark these words.
> 
> And hopefully Atak will be in Pakistan soon.


Yes, true. Even if Americans block the engine, Turkish engine will be ready in 2 years... and when you think, it would be better to have Turkish engine rather than american, in long run... it would be much more, sanctionproof.

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## cabatli_53

TEI is develong a turboshaft engine family and first product of this family, TS-1400 engine, provides 1500hp power. This national engine is going to replace T-129 Atak’s CTS-800 engine having a power of 1350hp. TS-1400 engine will rotate the rotors of Gökbey utility helicopter in 2020 (Source:TEI). In recent days, TEI and Alp aviation signed a deal to produce gearbox of Gökbey/Atak/T-629 Atak+ which will be delivered in 2020. National gearbox will be the best optimised solution to deliver the power of TS-1400 to 5 blade rotors. Same national engine will power up T-629 attack helicopters as well. We need a few years to make our 5/6t helicopters fly with national powerpack solutions.

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## nomi007

time pass said:


> Okay ... Old Man ... then what are the options ...


Putar many other options still present
russain & European engines
Caasta will hit Turkey not us
we are buying these helos by our own many not by usa aid
so we can directly buy American engines

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## nomi007

Finally Good News



Presidency of Turkish Defense Industry Dr. During the İR Global Strategies Conference in the Defense and Aviation Industry Antalya held in Antalya, İsmail DEMİR made statements to the press members about the T-129 ATAK program in Pakistan.

DEMİR explained that the export permission from the USA for the engines of ATAK helicopters to be exported to Pakistan is continuing and said, “Bureaucratic procedures are continuing. We can't say there's a deliberate delay right now. Pakistan is a greater concern exports from Turkey. We'il wait and see the result. This kind of export permits related to ATAK engine, we do not see as clear as we want to export. The engine, which is being developed in TEI (TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii) and whose core is operated, will be used in ATAK and GÖKBEY. We'll be running this engine at the end of next year, but that doesn't mean it's gonna get stuck in the helicopter. Then there is a detailed test process. This process takes time no matter how much you speed up. Otherwise, we could say that we gave ATAK's engine at the end of next year, but it will take some more time considering these parameters. ”






* ATAK Exports to Pakistan *
between Turkey and Pakistan; 30 Turkish Aerospace Industries (TUSAS) production T-129 ATAK Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter exports of $ 1.5 billion agreement, was signed in 2018. Within the scope of this acquisition, which is the biggest two export agreements made in one item in the history of Turkish Defense Industry, studies were started to obtain export permission from USA regarding the engines used in ATAK helicopters. It is estimated that the first ATAK helicopter will be delivered to Pakistan in 2020 if the relevant export permit is granted.

On the other hand; T-129 ATAK Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopter developed by TUSAŞ and TUSAŞ Motor Industry (TEI) is developing a national turbocharger engine called TS-1400 for use in GÖKBEY General Purpose Helicopter.

Besides, Pakistan and Turkey will supply the 30 T-129 ATAK Helicopter Attack as well as for use on other platforms in the inventory; L-UMTAS, UMTAS and OMTAS are planning to supply Roketsan type Anti-Tank Missiles.

*https://www.savunmasanayist.com/pakistan-atak-programinda-son-durum-ne/*

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

At worst, the US can only delay the ATAK (as Turkey can swap the CTS800 with either its own engine or one from Safran, either one will be ITAR-free). For Pakistan, a delay isn't necessarily bad either, at least given our financial situation today; a later ATAK delivery timeline will also mean a longer term / smaller payments.

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## mhosein

I do question the susceptibility of the Atak Helicopter of being shot down by th YPG in Syria last year. What measures have Pakistan Army taken to ensure that the new gunships which Pakistan is to acquire, would have a robust defense system to avoid being shot down?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mhosein said:


> I do question the susceptibility of the Atak Helicopter of being shot down by th YPG in Syria last year. What measures have Pakistan Army taken to ensure that the new gunships which Pakistan is to acquire, would have a robust defense system to avoid being shot down?


In general lightweight attack helicopters will rely on their self-protection suites, which include flare dispensers and in some cases DIRCM. However, you're not going to get as much innate protection in a 5-ton helicopter like ATAK (or India's LUH) compared to a heavyweight like the Apache. 

To me, it seems the PAA wants to use the ATAKs in high-altitude combat environments (a major part of the testing was in relation to that), while get a heavier attack helicopter for anti-armour ops. In terms of the latter, it would've gotten the AH-1Z, but CSF/FMF cuts shut that door, so an alternative is needed. 

Personally, I'd try reviving the Rooivalk (i.e. Rooivalk Mk2). It's a rugged design meant to take on conventional and assymmetric threats alike. The airframe is just fine (based on the Puma), but you can swap out the engine for some newer platform, like the Safran Aneto (ITAR-free), and upgrade the electronics and weapons.

Best of all, South Africa was literally offering whoever co-funds the Mk2's development ToT, and I reckon we get the kind that allows us to fully maintain and repair our aircraft, and add new ones at-will.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In general lightweight attack helicopters will rely on their self-protection suites, which include flare dispensers and in some cases DIRCM. However, you're not going to get as much innate protection in a 5-ton helicopter like ATAK (or India's LUH) compared to a heavyweight like the Apache.
> 
> To me, it seems the PAA wants to use the ATAKs in high-altitude combat environments (a major part of the testing was in relation to that), while get a heavier attack helicopter for anti-armour ops. In terms of the latter, it would've gotten the AH-1Z, but CSF/FMF cuts shut that door, so an alternative is needed.
> 
> Personally, I'd try reviving the Rooivalk (i.e. Rooivalk Mk2). It's a rugged design meant to take on conventional and assymmetric threats alike. The airframe is just fine (based on the Puma), but you can swap out the engine for some newer platform, like the Safran Aneto (ITAR-free), and upgrade the electronics and weapons.
> 
> Best of all, South Africa was literally offering whoever co-funds the Mk2's development ToT, and I reckon we get the kind that allows us to fully maintain and repair our aircraft, and add new ones at-will.


So AH 1Zs are coming?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So AH 1Zs are coming?


No. I said because we're not getting CSF/FMF, the AH-1Zs probably aren't coming.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Thus, the USA makes you self reliant...

Thank you the USA....

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> At worst, the US can only delay the ATAK (as Turkey can swap the CTS800 with either its own engine or one from Safran, either one will be ITAR-free). For Pakistan, a delay isn't necessarily bad either, at least given our financial situation today; a later ATAK delivery timeline will also mean a longer term / smaller payments.


Pak can't import engine by her helself form US???


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## Path-Finder

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Thus, the USA makes you self reliant...
> 
> Thank you the USA....


Very True, their policy of using weapons as a bargaining chip has forced other nations to develop a thriving industry.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Pak can't import engine by her helself form US???


That could be an option.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Mi28??
Heavier badder Apache like ATAK??


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In general lightweight attack helicopters will rely on their self-protection suites, which include flare dispensers and in some cases DIRCM. However, you're not going to get as much innate protection in a 5-ton helicopter like ATAK (or India's LUH) compared to a heavyweight like the Apache.
> 
> To me, it seems the PAA wants to use the ATAKs in high-altitude combat environments (a major part of the testing was in relation to that), while get a heavier attack helicopter for anti-armour ops. In terms of the latter, it would've gotten the AH-1Z, but CSF/FMF cuts shut that door, so an alternative is needed.
> 
> Personally, I'd try reviving the Rooivalk (i.e. Rooivalk Mk2). It's a rugged design meant to take on conventional and assymmetric threats alike. The airframe is just fine (based on the Puma), but you can swap out the engine for some newer platform, like the Safran Aneto (ITAR-free), and upgrade the electronics and weapons.
> 
> Best of all, South Africa was literally offering whoever co-funds the Mk2's development ToT, and I reckon we get the kind that allows us to fully maintain and repair our aircraft, and add new ones at-will.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Mi28??
> Heavier badder Apache like ATAK??


Russia = CAATSA. Mi-28NE = Sanctions.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In general lightweight attack helicopters will rely on their self-protection suites, which include flare dispensers and in some cases DIRCM. However, you're not going to get as much innate protection in a 5-ton helicopter like ATAK (or India's LUH) compared to a heavyweight like the Apache.
> 
> To me, it seems the PAA wants to use the ATAKs in high-altitude combat environments (a major part of the testing was in relation to that), while get a heavier attack helicopter for anti-armour ops. In terms of the latter, it would've gotten the AH-1Z, but CSF/FMF cuts shut that door, so an alternative is needed.
> 
> Personally, I'd try reviving the Rooivalk (i.e. Rooivalk Mk2). It's a rugged design meant to take on conventional and assymmetric threats alike. The airframe is just fine (based on the Puma), but you can swap out the engine for some newer platform, like the Safran Aneto (ITAR-free), and upgrade the electronics and weapons.
> 
> Best of all, South Africa was literally offering whoever co-funds the Mk2's development ToT, and I reckon we get the kind that allows us to fully maintain and repair our aircraft, and add new ones at-will.



We are willing to spend 1.5 billion to buy helicopters but cant put 500 million into a domestic project.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We are willing to spend 1.5 billion to buy helicopters but cant put 500 million into a domestic project.


To be fair the $1.5b covers the upfront procurement and support cost for some years. It's a cost we would've paid on top of the R&D of a domestic route.

That said, the Army has an opportunity with this controversy to emulate Project Azm. Perhaps settle on a 9-10 ton platform that can support both a transport and attack helicopter, like the ATAK-2/10-ton General Transport Helicopter, or AW149/AW249, or Rooivalk Mk2/Caracal, or even AH-1Z/UH-1Y. Basically, pick an ITAR free project and get its ToT.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Second you guys big time. PAC or Army can make money to cover the development cost as well.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We are willing to spend 1.5 billion to buy helicopters but cant put 500 million into a domestic project.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be fair the $1.5b covers the upfront procurement and support cost for some years. It's a cost we would've paid on top of the R&D of a domestic route.
> 
> That said, the Army has an opportunity with this controversy to emulate Project Azm. Perhaps settle on a 9-10 ton platform that can support both a transport and attack helicopter, like the ATAK-2/10-ton General Transport Helicopter, or AW149/AW249, or Rooivalk Mk2/Caracal, or even AH-1Z/UH-1Y. Basically, pick an ITAR free project and get its ToT.


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## Hassan Guy

nomi007 said:


> DEMİR explained that the export permission from the USA for the engines of ATAK helicopters to be exported to Pakistan is continuing and said, “Bureaucratic procedures are continuing. We can't say there's a deliberate delay right now.
> 
> *https://www.savunmasanayist.com/pakistan-atak-programinda-son-durum-ne/*


See, I don't hold a degree in predicting the future of Pakistan's defence acquisitions so I can't make any assumptions.

But I will.

Yes, there is a deliberate delay on the part of the US. Yes there in fact is.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> See, I don't hold a degree in predicting the future of Pakistan's defence acquisitions so I can't make any assumptions.
> 
> But I will.
> 
> Yes, there is a deliberate delay on the part of the US. Yes there in fact is.


Imagine it was for something random as refusing to pay for the AH-1Zs with national funds... and then it gets real petty where we buy 1 or 2 of them, and then one of them mysteriously crashes/vanishes.

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## python-000

Turan09 said:


> Yes, true. Even if Americans block the engine, Turkish engine will be ready in 2 years... and when you think, it would be better to have Turkish engine rather than american, in long run... it would be much more, sanctionproof.


InshAllah my brother...

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be fair the $1.5b covers the upfront procurement and support cost for some years. It's a cost we would've paid on top of the R&D of a domestic route.
> 
> That said, the Army has an opportunity with this controversy to emulate Project Azm. Perhaps settle on a 9-10 ton platform that can support both a transport and attack helicopter, like the ATAK-2/10-ton General Transport Helicopter, or AW149/AW249, or Rooivalk Mk2/Caracal, or even AH-1Z/UH-1Y. Basically, pick an ITAR free project and get its ToT.



Issue is Pak Army attack requirement simply will not justify such a big outlay. Spending billions to make a world class attack chopper and buy just 50 odd?

Better to licence build existing design

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## nomi007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Russia = CAATSA. Mi-28NE = Sanctions.


CAATSA or Sanctions also hit Nato Supply
which we can


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Issue is Pak Army attack requirement simply will not justify such a big outlay. Spending billions to make a world class attack chopper and buy just 50 odd?
> 
> Better to licence build existing design


I agree. One option is just partnering with Turkey on its programs (esp. engines), or get an existing design on offer with ToT, like Rooivalk.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. One option is just partnering with Turkey on its programs (esp. engines), or get an existing design on offer with ToT, like Rooivalk.


Agreed and since the platforms of Rooivalk and Oryx helos are the same; upgaded Oryx can also be leveraged to kick start local medium lift capability

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## time pass

nomi007 said:


> Putar many other options still present
> russain & European engines
> Caasta will hit Turkey not us
> we are buying these helos by our own many not by usa aid
> so we can directly buy American engines



Chacha .....Hold your horses & don't try jump in front of the gun


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yasser76 said:


> Issue is Pak Army attack requirement simply will not justify such a big outlay. Spending billions to make a world class attack chopper and buy just 50 odd?
> 
> Better to licence build existing design


30 T-129s for 1.5 billion.i


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## Great Janjua

Transfer of technology plus we get information off future updates like T629


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 30 T-129s for 1.5 billion.i[emoji38]

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## dBSPL

I'm sorry, but the transfer of technology for the TS1400 requires much more advanced collaboration.

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## Great Janjua

dBSPL said:


> I'm sorry, but the transfer of technology for the TS1400 requires much more advanced collaboration.


Your engine is not mature enough we wont be buying it in the first place no need to get all in your feelings mate

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Great Janjua said:


> Transfer of technology plus we get information off future updates like T629


There is no such offset ive read so far.


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## dBSPL

*The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years*. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.

Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.

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## Great Janjua

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> There is no such offset ive read so far.


What..... then 1.5 billion is too much am baffled I thought we had received tot


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

If anti-tank tot is meant, it can be $ 1.5 billion, but it is impossible to give tot with 30 helicopters + spare parts + training, simulator + anti-tank missiles. Even for the Ada / Jinnah class, the reciprocal tot has been taken for missile fuel engines. Nobody's giving anything to anybody.





Great Janjua said:


> What..... then 1.5 billion is too much am baffled I thought we had received tot



TAI, despite years of production and tot agreements, Agusta Westland, with its current Leonardo for $ 3.5 billion, has hardly received electronic integration and only customized A129B2 configuration and license rights (hence tot), except for production lines. 1.5 billion dollars to the helicopter and the helicopter tires, as well as the number of technology, even for technology transfer bro sorry. Life is more expensive than you think outside Pakistan.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

dBSPL said:


> *The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years*. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.
> 
> Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.


It'd be better to collaborate at a higher/abstract level on gas turbine technology, esp. crystal blades, fuel efficiency, etc. Pakistan (and Turkey) can then take those insights to develop their own respective applied solutions, either on their own or collaboratively.

However, it'd be better to start with developing the knowledge pool together, instead of expecting Turkey to give up something via ToT, or vice-versa. We should collaborate on R&D in gas turbines, composites, steel, electronics, semiconductors, etc. The applications will come later.

PS: $1.5 b isn't the upfront cost of the ATAK purchase. A significant portion of it also includes spare parts and support, likely a d-level MRO plant as well. Pakistan probably won't spend $1.5b on the program until 10-15 years into program. @Great Janjua

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## waz

dBSPL said:


> *The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years*. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.
> 
> Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> to start with developing the knowledge pool together


this is more important rather to have collaboration in 1 or 2 specific program ....

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## Turan09

dBSPL said:


> *The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years*. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.
> 
> Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.


Its now, called TS1500. With 1500 HP. (For comparison ATAK's american made engine ''LHTEC T800'' has 1350 HP.)



Great Janjua said:


> What..... then 1.5 billion is too much am baffled I thought we had received tot


Bahrain paid 912 million dollars for 12 AH1Z. Of course without any ToT. For comparison, you must pay 2.3 billion dollars for 30 AH1-Z without ToT. Turkish Products are cheaper when you compare American or European but still not that cheap. ATAK will be cheaper with TS1500 but again, it needs time.




RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> If anti-tank tot is meant, it can be $ 1.5 billion, but it is impossible to give tot with 30 helicopters + spare parts + training, simulator + anti-tank missiles. *Even for the Ada / Jinnah class, the reciprocal tot has been taken for missile fuel engines.* Nobody's giving anything to anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TAI, despite years of production and tot agreements, Agusta Westland, with its current Leonardo for $ 3.5 billion, has hardly received electronic integration and only customized A129B2 configuration and license rights (hence tot), except for production lines. 1.5 billion dollars to the helicopter and the helicopter tires, as well as the number of technology, even for technology transfer bro sorry. Life is more expensive than you think outside Pakistan.


This is the important part. Two states can complete each other with their areas of expertise. But, no one can expect to have full ToT for free. Not Turkey, Not Pakistan. This technologies does not grow on trees. We worked for years. We spent billions. For the continuity of Turkish Defence Industry we need money. Must be quite understandable. When you consider that Turkish Defence Industry benefits you with saction proof NATO standard weapons.
Best way would be technology exchange and joint production. Technology exchange would make stronger both of us, just like MILGEM. You got your national stealth frigates, we got missile fuel engines. And joint production, of course because of R&D spendings, makes you learn about most part of production.
But a note, is Pakistan gonna join future Turkish programs? Until today, Pakistan choose to stay away from it, mostly because of risks and R&D Spendings. It is understandable because until 2000's Turkey had very little experience about weapon production, and nobody would like to risk her money for uncertain success... I think we proved ourself in this last ten years with our products. Now, lets see if Pakistan gonna take the risks and R&D spendings... You know what they say, ''no pain, no gain''

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## ACE OF THE AIR

dBSPL said:


> *The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years*. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.
> 
> Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.


TS-1400 is a project that incorporated many different technical expertise from EU member states hence it was bound to be successful. Even European companies required a new type of engine for their next generation attack helicopter hence proceeded in providing advance technologies in respect of cheaper cost of manufacture due to cheap labour in Turkey.

As far as Pakistan is concerned its T129 if powered by this engines would require retesting in Pakistan. Though the power generation is slightly higher than the US made engines that would still not be available for Hot and High environment as this would be going to the new Millimeter Radar that is also under development.

This was one of the reasons Pakistani order did not order the radar for its initial T-129's but wanted a higher performance engine, hence Pakistan is very much involved in the engine manufacturing progress but nothing has been officially stated so far. 



RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> If anti-tank tot is meant, it can be $ 1.5 billion, but it is impossible to give tot with 30 helicopters + spare parts + training, simulator + anti-tank missiles. Even for the Ada / Jinnah class, the reciprocal tot has been taken for missile fuel engines. Nobody's giving anything to anybody.
> 
> TAI, despite years of production and tot agreements, Agusta Westland, with its current Leonardo for $ 3.5 billion, has hardly received electronic integration and only customized A129B2 configuration and license rights (hence tot), except for production lines. 1.5 billion dollars to the helicopter and the helicopter tires, as well as the number of technology, even for technology transfer bro sorry. Life is more expensive than you think outside Pakistan.


It is possible to have TOT with 30 examples as the order would increase by another 20-30. 
If you compare that Turkey payed $3.5 billion for 80 than 50 to 60 would cost around 2-2.2 billion which is not bad as it would allow not just further sales through other company but also save man hours and increased production rate in case of sales to third country.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be better to collaborate at a higher/abstract level on gas turbine technology, esp. crystal blades, fuel efficiency, etc. Pakistan (and Turkey) can then take those insights to develop their own respective applied solutions, either on their own or collaboratively.
> 
> However, it'd be better to start with developing the knowledge pool together, instead of expecting Turkey to give up something via ToT, or vice-versa. We should collaborate on R&D in gas turbines, composites, steel, electronics, semiconductors, etc. The applications will come later.
> 
> PS: $1.5 b isn't the upfront cost of the ATAK purchase. A significant portion of it also includes spare parts and support, likely a d-level MRO plant as well. Pakistan probably won't spend $1.5b on the program until 10-15 years into program. @Great Janjua


Sir what you are saying is only possible in ideal situation as this would require many industries to be set which are under embargo for Pakistan, not to mention the tools would also be bared, countries that might provide these would also be on sanctions once they provide. Hence it is only possible if Pakistan invests in a mature product and then through local universities develop something in the long term.


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## cabatli_53

TEI has reached technological maturity to manufacture all sections of turbine engines. Nickel, Aluminium, Titanium alloys and stainless steel with different manufacturing technics...

01/2014, Red dots were the sections that TEI didn’t have capability to produce in 2014. Within 3 years, All defficiencies have been filled with new manufacturing technics...







*Dinç Project: *240t melting capacity aviation quality stainless steel and nickel-based alloys required to be used in aerospace platforms for the defense industry and civil purposes.

*The Atom project:* This program aims to develop nickel metal powder suitable for layered manufacturing for aerospace applications

*The Elektron Project:* Development of a titanium layer process using the Electron Beam Melting (EBM) method.

*The Ayna Project:* Development of new generation Aluminum alloydevelopment

*İnci Project:* Manufacturing capability domestically for the titanium alloy parts needed in air platforms through precision casting method.

*Yakut Project:* Project aims at acquisition of the Metal Powder Laser Melting (LAM) process as well as the process modeling capability for manufacturing of functional parts that have advanced mechanical features and can operate under challenging conditions such as high pressure and temperature differences in aircraft engines. 

*The Dilek Project:* backed up by the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, is carried out by TAI and TEI in collaboration with the aim of developing superplastic forming process for titanium alloyswhich are used in both platform and engine applications in aviation industry, and as a result reducing dependence on foreign sources.

*Müge Project: *The purpose of program is to develop Magnesium Alloy Casting technology.



TEI designed 9 stage compressor providing same press/airflow ratio with original HP compressor with 10 stage designed by GE.






TEI designed combustion chamber reached %98+ Combustion efficiency in trials. That is a good indication for compressors and fuel injection working efficienctly to mix optimum amount of air/fuel particulars (1/14) in chamber.







TEI is working on advanced blades cooling technology to minimize the maintenance costs, while improving the efficiency and reliability of national gas turbine engines.






You can see the single crystal blade produced by TEI and domestic partners. Single crystal blades are used on turbines.







This magical alloy for turbine blades have been manufactured with additive manufacturing method by
TEI.






The first FBS module manufactured with titanium moulding process has been seen on image.







Blade Repairing with laser cladding technology is being developed for gas turbine engines.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Russia = CAATSA. Mi-28NE = Sanctions.


Then how we got Mi 35Ms?


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## dBSPL

cabatli_53 said:


> TEI has reached technological maturity to manufacture all sections of turbine engines. Nickel, Aluminium, Titanium alloys and stainless steel with different manufacturing technics...
> 
> 01/2014, Red dots were the sections that TEI didn’t have capability to produce in 2014. Within 3 years, All defficiencies have been filled with new manufacturing technics...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dinç Project: *240t melting capacity aviation quality stainless steel and nickel-based alloys required to be used in aerospace platforms for the defense industry and civil purposes.
> 
> *The Atom project:* This program aims to develop nickel metal powder suitable for layered manufacturing for aerospace applications
> 
> *The Elektron Project:* Development of a titanium layer process using the Electron Beam Melting (EBM) method.
> 
> *The Ayna Project:* Development of new generation Aluminum alloydevelopment
> 
> *İnci Project:* Manufacturing capability domestically for the titanium alloy parts needed in air platforms through precision casting method.
> 
> *Yakut Project:* Project aims at acquisition of the Metal Powder Laser Melting (LAM) process as well as the process modeling capability for manufacturing of functional parts that have advanced mechanical features and can operate under challenging conditions such as high pressure and temperature differences in aircraft engines.
> 
> *The Dilek Project:* backed up by the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, is carried out by TAI and TEI in collaboration with the aim of developing superplastic forming process for titanium alloyswhich are used in both platform and engine applications in aviation industry, and as a result reducing dependence on foreign sources.
> 
> *Müge Project: *The purpose of program is to develop Magnesium Alloy Casting technology.
> 
> 
> 
> TEI designed 9 stage compressor providing same press/airflow ratio with original HP compressor with 10 stage designed by GE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TEI designed combustion chamber reached %98+ Combustion efficiency in trials. That is a good indication for compressors and fuel injection working efficienctly to mix optimum amount of air/fuel particulars (1/14) in chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TEI is working on advanced blades cooling technology to minimize the maintenance costs, while improving the efficiency and reliability of national gas turbine engines.
> 
> View attachment 592645
> 
> 
> You can see the single crystal blade produced by TEI and domestic partners. Single crystal blades are used on turbines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This magical alloy for turbine blades have been manufactured with additive manufacturing method by
> TEI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first FBS module manufactured with titanium moulding process has been seen on image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blade Repairing with laser cladding technology is being developed for gas turbine engines.



Unfortunately, it is not possible to prevent perceptual blindness. There are people who believe in what he wants to believe with a few memorized molds about Turkish defense industry. It is quite frustrating to see people still recitation somethings about Turkish defense&aerospace who have no up-to-date knowledge. Existing main platform projects are the visible part of the iceberg, the main paradigm shift is vertical specialization, acquisition of design capability and matalurgy&meterial science and ofc electronics&micro components area.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Then how we got Mi 35Ms?


Bought and delivered pre-CAATSA.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bought and delivered pre-CAATSA.


So then would CAATSA be applied on India for its acquisition of S400?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So then would CAATSA be applied on India for its acquisition of S400?


It should, but India might get away with it.

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## xbat

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> TS-1400 is a project that incorporated many different technical expertise from EU member states


more elaborate please, which EU state(s) are you talking about? TS 1400 is pure domestic.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

xbat said:


> more elaborate please, which EU state(s) are you talking about? TS 1400 is pure domestic.



I wondered where they came from the EU state(s), but the word "pure domestic" is a bit funny. It would have been impossible if we hadn't received technology transfers from GE. Likewise most of the tools used in manufacturing come from there, these are not simple cnc machines, you need an international partner for turbine engines.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bought and delivered pre-CAATSA.


Also not a major weapon system.


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## Aamir Hussain

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I wondered where they came from the EU state(s), but the word "pure domestic" is a bit funny. It would have been impossible if we hadn't received technology transfers from GE. Likewise most of the tools used in manufacturing come from there, these are not simple cnc machines, you need an international partner for turbine engines.


Sadly very few on this forum understand this. Turkey with foresight cultivated relationships, over decades, with key Western Governments and suppliers, leveraging its pivotal position in NATO. Now it is bearing fruits of what was started decades ago.

Today, most of what Turkey is producing or developing has Western roots. Whether it, is technology, tooling, production methodology, quality control, integration protocols etc. In near future and even now Turkey is and will be producing pure "Turkish" products based on these exchange of Western technologies and expertise. 

We in this country have not been able to crawl out of our Colonial Biases and still think in terms of Zero Sum games. We have yet to learn the art of leveraging our strengths and making the most of it. What we have, done over the years, make a hash of it.

If we talk about China than a lot of stuff they are producing today has its roots in Russia/USSR, France, Germany, & USA. Their Nukes and missile tech is originally Russian based. most of their Radar tech is Russian or French. Their Helos are based upon French Tech and lately, a US clone. Their tanks are basically enhanced Russian designs and some German Tech. Critical engines & components are copies of Russian and German tech. A lot of their planes are outright copies of Russian designs! But that is smart.....why go the difficult route when things can be acquired easily by having commercial or strategic relationships with key entities and countries till it suits you!!!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

xbat said:


> more elaborate please, which EU state(s) are you talking about? TS 1400 is pure domestic.


1) GE UK helped with turbine technology.
2) Germany helped with matelargy. 
3) Italy with blades and gearbox. 
These are EU member States. 

Non EU partners are Ukraine that provides their latest engine technology which was further improved on by the help of the above mentioned countries. 

The only thing that makes it indigenous the will of Turkish President to acquire capabilities that are not available at this time.

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## xbat

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 1) GE UK helped with turbine technology.
> 2) Germany helped with matelargy.
> 3) Italy with blades and gearbox.
> These are EU member States.
> 
> Non EU partners are Ukraine that provides their latest engine technology which was further improved on by the help of the above mentioned countries.
> 
> The only thing that makes it indigenous the will of Turkish President to acquire capabilities that are not available at this time.


wait.. wait.. wait a second! we are talking about a specific item called "TS-1400" ,not Turkeys technological adventure. we designed ,manufactured, tested it by ourselves. No other country has right to say about it. lets compare it with ALTAY tank, Turkey got technical assistance from S.Korea, Turkey paid money and also S. Korea wanted the tank can not be exports to JAPAN and China. this is what happens when you get tech from other countries. 

Turkey requested its engine design parts to be manufactured in abroad no one even responded. Finally TEI achieved to manufacture those critical parts by itself . The materials that can be used inside a turbine engine are under strict control by its producers. You cant produce a turbine engine without permission of supplier of those specific alloys. 

Machinery is not our topic here, everyone uses US/JAPAN/EU machines even Russians. TEI is a partner of GE uses US origin machines .
lets talk about your claims
1)When you produce a turbine engine under license that doesnt contribute you too much, you never know how they design it! production is something different
2) Germany provides some metal alloys not metallurgy know how! again they are different things
3) Turkey didnt produce blades (single crystal) before this project, all them came from US. i dont think that italy has single crystal tech by its own. We learned gearbox by ourselves, actually its not too hard when you compare other parts of engine.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aamir Hussain said:


> Sadly very few on this forum understand this. Turkey with foresight cultivated relationships, over decades, with key Western Governments and suppliers, leveraging its pivotal position in NATO. Now it is bearing fruits of what was started decades ago.
> 
> Today, most of what Turkey is producing or developing has Western roots. Whether it, is technology, tooling, production methodology, quality control, integration protocols etc. In near future and even now Turkey is and will be producing pure "Turkish" products based on these exchange of Western technologies and expertise.
> 
> We in this country have not been able to crawl out of our Colonial Biases and still think in terms of Zero Sum games. We have yet to learn the art of leveraging our strengths and making the most of it. What we have, done over the years, make a hash of it.
> 
> If we talk about China than a lot of stuff they are producing today has its roots in Russia/USSR, France, Germany, & USA. Their Nukes and missile tech is originally Russian based. most of their Radar tech is Russian or French. Their Helos are based upon French Tech and lately, a US clone. Their tanks are basically enhanced Russian designs and some German Tech. Critical engines & components are copies of Russian and German tech. A lot of their planes are outright copies of Russian designs! But that is smart.....why go the difficult route when things can be acquired easily by having commercial or strategic relationships with key entities and countries till it suits you!!!


In some ways, I wonder if seeing what Turkey is doing today is what pushed the PAF to pursue Project Azm as an original fighter instead of going for FC-31. The FGFA under Azm is wildly ambitious, and it's drawing some mockery and skepticism from various quarters.

However, Turkey took what it had, and then made a leap with the TS1400. What is to stop Pakistan from taking what it has and taking a leap of its own?

It won't be as drastic as Turkey, sure, but then again, a jump from relying on others to designing your own plane in-house (albeit drawing on a mix of domestic and overseas development/industrial support) is huge in its own right.

I just hope we start applying that mentality to a 9-10 ton common attack and transport transport helicopter too. 

We can use something in the size range of the S-70 or AW149 for transporting troops, naval operations, CSAR, and government/civilian usage. And the same engine, transmissions, rotors, etc can go towards a tandem-seat attack helicopter.

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## Aamir Hussain

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In some ways, I wonder if seeing what Turkey is doing today is what pushed the PAF to pursue Project Azm as an original fighter instead of going for FC-31. The FGFA under Azm is wildly ambitious, and it's drawing some mockery and skepticism from various quarters.
> 
> However, Turkey took what it had, and then made a leap with the TS1400. What is to stop Pakistan from taking what it has and taking a leap of its own?
> 
> It won't be as drastic as Turkey, sure, but then again, a jump from relying on others to designing your own plane in-house (albeit drawing on a mix of domestic and overseas development/industrial support) is huge in its own right.
> 
> I just hope we start applying that mentality to a 9-10 ton common attack and transport transport helicopter too.
> 
> We can use something in the size range of the S-70 or AW149 for transporting troops, naval operations, CSAR, and government/civilian usage. And the same engine, transmissions, rotors, etc can go towards a tandem-seat attack helicopter.



A lot of commonalty can be achieved between Turkey and Pakistan in:

MBT --- Pakistan is searching around for a tank to add to its ageing fleet. Buy into the Altay program and leverage economies of scale and modify the design to suit our conditions.
AFV --- PA still lacks a true AFV. Again leverage the Turk program and build economies of scale and bring down costs.
Milgem & Beyond --- Seems like we are moving in that direction
ATAK & Beyond --- Focus on engine and avionics. Maybe linkup with Safran out of France. But PA has a med. to heavy attack helo need and a med to heavy transport helo requirement for transport in AJK.
SP HOW --- Again the next gen SP beyond the M-109 variants can come from a joint PakTurk initiative.
Light 155mm HOW -- Develop that along with Turkey. They too have mountainous terrain and are fighting an insurgency there. We need light HOW to use in AJK that we lack today.

The above are the cornerstone programs that can benefit Pakistan for circumventing various limitations in acquiring western technologies and at the same time access to Western Standard Equipment without let and hindrance. Turks can cut down their costs by letting Pakistan bear some development expenses and spread the development costs.

It is win-win for both countries as suggested by Bilal Khan (Quwa).

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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> A lot of commonalty can be achieved between Turkey and Pakistan in:
> 
> MBT --- Pakistan is searching around for a tank to add to its ageing fleet. Buy into the Altay program and leverage economies of scale and modify the design to suit our conditions.
> AFV --- PA still lacks a true AFV. Again leverage the Turk program and build economies of scale and bring down costs.
> Milgem & Beyond --- Seems like we are moving in that direction
> ATAK & Beyond --- Focus on engine and avionics. Maybe linkup with Safran out of France. But PA has a med. to heavy attack helo need and a med to heavy transport helo requirement for transport in AJK.
> SP HOW --- Again the next gen SP beyond the M-109 variants can come from a joint PakTurk initiative.
> Light 155mm HOW -- Develop that along with Turkey. They too have mountainous terrain and are fighting an insurgency there. We need light HOW to use in AJK that we lack today.
> 
> The above are the cornerstone programs that can benefit Pakistan for circumventing various limitations in acquiring western technologies and at the same time access to Western Standard Equipment without let and hindrance. Turks can cut down their costs by letting Pakistan bear some development expenses and spread the development costs.
> 
> It is win-win for both countries as suggested by Bilal Khan (Quwa).


Turkey still depends on western materials / key components for its major weapons programmes. We all know about the T129, the Altay has german technology eg the engine etc so are not 100% sanctions free esp after the row with the US on the S400 purchase resulting in the suspension of the F35 program for the TuAF.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Aamir Hussain said:


> A lot of commonalty can be achieved between Turkey and Pakistan in:
> 
> MBT --- Pakistan is searching around for a tank to add to its ageing fleet. Buy into the Altay program and leverage economies of scale and modify the design to suit our conditions.
> AFV --- PA still lacks a true AFV. Again leverage the Turk program and build economies of scale and bring down costs.
> Milgem & Beyond --- Seems like we are moving in that direction
> ATAK & Beyond --- Focus on engine and avionics. Maybe linkup with Safran out of France. But PA has a med. to heavy attack helo need and a med to heavy transport helo requirement for transport in AJK.
> SP HOW --- Again the next gen SP beyond the M-109 variants can come from a joint PakTurk initiative.
> Light 155mm HOW -- Develop that along with Turkey. They too have mountainous terrain and are fighting an insurgency there. We need light HOW to use in AJK that we lack today.
> 
> The above are the cornerstone programs that can benefit Pakistan for circumventing various limitations in acquiring western technologies and at the same time access to Western Standard Equipment without let and hindrance. Turks can cut down their costs by letting Pakistan bear some development expenses and spread the development costs.
> 
> It is win-win for both countries as suggested by Bilal Khan (Quwa).


Why dont we do it with China?


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## Aamir Hussain

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why dont we do it with China?



China is already an option and a lot of things are being worked upon with China.

With Turkey the evolution of their product line follows the western genres. While that of Chinese products have mostly Russian genres.

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## fatman17

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why dont we do it with China?


We are with China and Ukraine on MBTs


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## Imran Khan

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I wondered where they came from the EU state(s), but the word "pure domestic" is a bit funny. It would have been impossible if we hadn't received technology transfers from GE. Likewise most of the tools used in manufacturing come from there, these are not simple cnc machines, you need an international partner for turbine engines.


i have stopped believing of this pure domestic scrap when i stand on Chinese frigate and look around made in Italy made in japan made in Korea things

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## cabatli_53

fatman17 said:


> Turkey still depends on western materials / key components for its major weapons programmes. We all know about the T129, the Altay has german technology eg the engine etc so are not 100% sanctions free esp after the row with the US on the S400 purchase resulting in the suspension of the F35 program for the TuAF.




Engine tech is ona of the biggest defficiency we have to overcome in coming years and the industry is working hard to solve this problem. The average national contribution mostly reach around %70-75 scale in Turkish strategic programs and majority of the remained share is about the engines and transmissions/gearboxes of platforms. In next years, We will see Land, Naval and Aerial engines to be revealed step by step. After this process, Noone will be able to block any strategic cooperation of Turkish institutes. Turkey is cooperating with Fiat/Iveco for 1500hp and 1000hp engine projects and Most likely, We will see national 1500hp engine and tranamissions until 2023. TS-1400/1500 turboshaft technology will be evolved to provide bigger thrust for 10/12t platforms. Turbojet family is under the responsibility of Kale and first product will power up SOM and Atmaca missiles. The tradition of Turkish industry is based of continuation of developments in all field so We will see a large powerpack family in all fields in near future.

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## fatman17

cabatli_53 said:


> Engine tech is ona of the biggest defficiency we have to overcome in coming years and the industry is working hard to solve this problem. The average national contribution mostly reach around %70-75 scale in Turkish strategic programs and majority of the remained share is about the engines and transmissions/gearboxes of platforms. In next years, We will see Land, Naval and Aerial engines to be revealed step by step. After this process, Noone will be able to block any strategic cooperation of Turkish institutes. Turkey is cooperating with Fiat/Iveco for 1500hp and 1000hp engine projects and Most likely, We will see national 1500hp engine and tranamissions until 2023. TS-1400/1500 turboshaft technology will be evolved to provide bigger thrust for 10/12t platforms. Turbojet family is under the responsibility of Kale and first product will power up SOM and Atmaca missiles. The tradition of Turkish industry is based of continuation of developments in all field so We will see a large powerpack family in all fields in near future.


Good to hear and read it.

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## Khagan1923

cabatli_53 said:


> Engine tech is ona of the biggest defficiency we have to overcome in coming years and the industry is working hard to solve this problem. The average national contribution mostly reach around %70-75 scale in Turkish strategic programs and majority of the remained share is about the engines and transmissions/gearboxes of platforms. In next years, We will see Land, Naval and Aerial engines to be revealed step by step. After this process, Noone will be able to block any strategic cooperation of Turkish institutes. Turkey is cooperating with Fiat/Iveco for 1500hp and 1000hp engine projects and Most likely, We will see national 1500hp engine and tranamissions until 2023. TS-1400/1500 turboshaft technology will be evolved to provide bigger thrust for 10/12t platforms. Turbojet family is under the responsibility of Kale and first product will power up SOM and Atmaca missiles. The tradition of Turkish industry is based of continuation of developments in all field so We will see a large powerpack family in all fields in near future.



TS-1400 (up to 1500hp from targeted 1200hp) will make its first flight debut in the Gökbey and I believe in the ATAK next year too. The plan was always to have Gökbey go into serial production with the TS-1400.

I also dont foresee any problems with new Trials for Pakistan with an TS-1400 equipped ATAK. The LHTEC CTS800-4N was choosen by the Armed Forces because of its reliable performance in high altitude and hot and cold weather which TSK deals with. The same as PAF. TAF won't replace a reliable engine with one that doesn't perform as good in those circumstances and sabotages CT operations in the SE.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202127532746776582
Land Forces 91 ATAK (59+32 Optional) (48 Delivered)
Interior Ministery 27 ATAK (24+3 Optional) (6 Delivered)

Near Future: National 20MM Gun Barrel for Helicopters ( Export from Italy )
First Flight of TS-1400 in 2020 ( Export from US)
T-129 FAZ 2 deliveries start mid 2020, first order consists of 21 Helicopters

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

In the first half of 2021, it is impossible for TS1400 to be completed and accepted. At least two more years. Those who believe that TEI can finish the project on the given date are those who are interested defence endustry since the last 1 year . Even after the first certification of the internal combustion civil aviation engine 7 years after the first certification and still can not integrate the production line of a uav, delivery date less than 2 years and did not work in turboshaft mode of curiosity is how to deliver an engine.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Turkey will be the first Muslim country 100% Proficient in Engine development

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## cabatli_53

TEI manager said that They are developing a heavyclass turboshaft engine called TS-3000 which will have a thrust around 3000hp. This engine will be integrated for 10/12 t helicopters attack and utility.

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## polanski

Senate chairman moves toward CAATSA sanctions on Turkey as Turkey test Nebo-M radar against F-16: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ckdown-on-turkey-as-turkey-test-nebo-m-radar/


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## Ahmet Pasha

If they can fight off a coupe of such grand scale. Then brave Turks can fight anything Uncle Sam has throw at Turks.


polanski said:


> Senate chairman moves toward CAATSA sanctions on Turkey as Turkey test Nebo-M radar against F-16: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ckdown-on-turkey-as-turkey-test-nebo-m-radar/

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## GriffinsRule



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## Muhammad Omar

When will Pakistan receive these


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## nomi007

Muhammad Omar said:


> When will Pakistan receive these


mid 2020 or early 2021

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## Sunny4pak

All About Pakistan's T129

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## cabatli_53

SSB Mr. Ismail Demir told that Pakistan extended the delivery schedule of T-129 Atak helicopters 1 more years in order to get export licence of LHTEC engine from US. Both Pakistani and Turkish officials are making pressure US to get export licence but If US rejects it, Pakistani helicopters will most likely receive domestic TS-1500 turboshaft engines by waiting a little longer.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> SSB Mr. Ismail Demir told that Pakistan extended the delivery schedule of T-129 Atak helicopters 1 more years in order to get export licence of LHTEC engine from US. Both Pakistani and Turkish officials are making pressure US to get export licence but If US rejects it, Pakistani helicopters will most likely receive domestic TS-1500 turboshaft engines by waiting a little longer.


If this spills over to the TEI-equipped ATAK, then it could be an upgraded variant. So, new engine plus T625 rotors, transmission, and dynamic parts, plus new avionics. I hope they can up the weight to 6 tons with more payload, but without badly affecting the other performance parameters. Would be worth seeing.

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## Sunny4pak

*ترکی کی ، ایس ایس بی کے نمائندہ اسماعیل ڈیمر نے کہا ہے کہ: امریکہ سے ہیلی کاپٹر کے لیے اے ٹی اے سی انجن کی پاکستان برآمد کے لئے انجن برآمدی اجازت حاصل کرنے کا عمل جاری ہے۔ پاکستان نے 1 سال کی اضافی مدت دی ہے ۔ در حقیقت ، یہ معاملہ پاکستان اور امریکہ کے مابین ہے۔ اگر برآمدی اجازت نامہ 1 سال کے اندر جاری کیا جاتا ہے تو ٹھیک ورنہ پاکستان اس نقطہ پر غور کرے گا جہاں قومی انجن کی آپشن موجود ہے ۔ اُس وقت (ایک سال بعد)اس پراجیکٹ کی قسمت کا فیصلہ ہوگا۔




*​​

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## Great Janjua

cabatli_53 said:


> SSB Mr. Ismail Demir told that Pakistan extended the delivery schedule of T-129 Atak helicopters 1 more years in order to get export licence of LHTEC engine from US. Both Pakistani and Turkish officials are making pressure US to get export licence but If US rejects it, Pakistani helicopters will most likely receive domestic TS-1500 turboshaft engines by waiting a little longer.


How long for the indigenous engine


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## cabatli_53

Great Janjua said:


> How long for the indigenous engine



First full scale prototype -TS-1500- will fly with T-625 Gökbey helicopter in 2020. It takes a few years more to receive green light for serial production.

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## Mrc

Although probably best heli to get it was wrong order to place from beginning . 


I can say now that even after additional year USA will not allow export of engine 

So unnecessary shortage of attack helis has been created artificially by none other than pak general staff by placing order despite clearly foreseeable circumstances and desciplinary action shud ensue... And correct order shud be placed for Chinese helis

No offense to turkish brothers

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## Great Janjua

Mrc said:


> Although probably best heli to get it was wrong order to place from beginning .
> 
> 
> I can say now that even after additional year USA will not allow export of engine
> 
> So unnecessary shortage of attack helis has been created artificially by none other than pak general staff by placing order despite clearly foreseeable circumstances and desciplinary action shud ensue... And correct order shud be placed for Chinese helis
> 
> No offense to turkish brothers


Yes even if the Turkish brothers get their engine completed in time it will need revaluation in Pakistan seems like a lost deal

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## mingle

If deal went through is great but if it doesn't Army should make an open bidding as @Quwa wrote in his blog for atleast 100 Helis for local assembly to replace cobras too let's see how it pans out Army's requirements.


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## Mrc

It was pretty evident from blocking AH1z delivery that USA will not allow export of 129 t engines . If they would to allow turkish export than why in world they would block their own export???

There seems to be foolish or deliberate oversight from pak military people dealing with the matter

This shud immediately be remedied as we do need these helis 9n western borders urgently . .

And personal involved shud atleast be investigated for gross incompetence

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## Areesh

T129 has turned out to be a bad deal for Pakistan

I hope we opt for Chinese choppers and move on

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## mudas777

Since we have got ourselves in a bit of muddle but one have to look through the fog and find some solution in the interim. How about if we lease 50 hellos from China in the mean time and renegotiate with our Turkish brothers and up the number of hellos but manufacture it on 50:50 with TOT and some thing good comes out of this saga.
On one hand we will have some gap fillers and on the other hand we can play with the time till Turkish own power plants for the hellos are ready. Win win for both brothers. How long, we will keep on going to the pillar to the post and to other countries for our needs and then we keep on complaining we have got no jobs and we got trade deficit issue.
Point to remember is F16 saga gave us the JF17 and now we don't need any one dictation, same can be said of the similar situation thanks to the US engine issue and on the long term we get a better deal of all this.


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## nomi007

Unfortunately Turkish are making us fool.
why they are not offering an alternative western engine for T-129.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

I guess Pakistan has no choice now but to just stick with this deal unless Pakistan can start building their own.

It cost Turkey/Italy just $3.2 billion to design and build the T129 Atak helicopter and Pakistan has spent $1.5 billion just purchasing it (plus $1 billion on the AH-1Zs).

I am sure Pakistan could've easily done a helicopter JV with China with that sort of money to build the machines suited for Pakistan.

I am not sure what the logic was for Pakistani Army going for this sanction-prone deal while PAF successfully managed to free itself from US with the JF-17 Thunder program.


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## khanasifm

cabatli_53 said:


> First full scale prototype -TS-1500- will fly with T-625 Gökbey helicopter in 2020. It takes a few years more to receive green light for serial production.




https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...-team-of-experts-for-the-t625-helicopter-3546

625 product target with Ts-1400 is 24/25 so adoption for 129 who knows


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## khanasifm

TS 1400 for T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters

The TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine can also be integrated into T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopter with some adaptations to replace LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines for which Turkey has been experiencing difficulties for several years in obtaining an export license from the U.S. Government. In 2015 Turkey had finalized negotiations with Turkmenistan for the sale of 2 T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters however since the U.S. Government did not provide the export license for the LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines this project was not realized. A similar problem is being experienced for the sale of the T129 Mk-Is to Pakistan. Turkey has been waiting for more than a year for the U.S. export license in order to proceed with the Pakistan T129B Mk-I deal. 

The contract for the sale of 30 T129B Mk-I ATAK Light Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters to Pakistan Land Forces was signed on 16 May 2018, yet it has not become effective as of June 2019. Official application to the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the LHTEC CTS800-4A Turboshaft Engine utilized on the helicopter was made, the process was completed with the Foreign Affairs Commission and the request was submitted to the U.S. Department of Defence. The approval process was still underway as of May 2019. Turkish Aerospace previously received the Original License Document from the U.S. Government for the sale/export of the T129B to Pakistan.


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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> TS 1400 for T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters
> 
> The TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine can also be integrated into T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopter with some adaptations to replace LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines for which Turkey has been experiencing difficulties for several years in obtaining an export license from the U.S. Government. In 2015 Turkey had finalized negotiations with Turkmenistan for the sale of 2 T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters however since the U.S. Government did not provide the export license for the LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines this project was not realized. A similar problem is being experienced for the sale of the T129 Mk-Is to Pakistan. Turkey has been waiting for more than a year for the U.S. export license in order to proceed with the Pakistan T129B Mk-I deal.
> 
> The contract for the sale of 30 T129B Mk-I ATAK Light Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters to Pakistan Land Forces was signed on 16 May 2018, yet it has not become effective as of June 2019. Official application to the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the LHTEC CTS800-4A Turboshaft Engine utilized on the helicopter was made, the process was completed with the Foreign Affairs Commission and the request was submitted to the U.S. Department of Defence. The approval process was still underway as of May 2019. Turkish Aerospace previously received the Original License Document from the U.S. Government for the sale/export of the T129B to Pakistan.


Alice wells is coming pak for 4day trip I believe this engine issue will go through along our cobras

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## araz

Mrc said:


> Although probably best heli to get it was wrong order to place from beginning .
> 
> 
> I can say now that even after additional year USA will not allow export of engine
> 
> So unnecessary shortage of attack helis has been created artificially by none other than pak general staff by placing order despite clearly foreseeable circumstances and desciplinary action shud ensue... And correct order shud be placed for Chinese helis
> 
> No offense to turkish brothers


The provider takes responsibility for providing all the necessary components and deliver a fully functioning platform. In JFT we have left the Chinese to deal with the Russians on the RD engines. Was that wrong as well? I have been told on this forum by responsible persons that the engines for the said platforms had already been acquired. In this light one wonders what has happened.
I present to you 2 possible scenarios.
A. The Turkish engine is nearing completion and PA has itself agreed with the Turks to wait for it as it provides many advantages on top of the possibility of local manufacturing and overhaul and independednce from sanctions and supply line disruptions.
B.PAA sees more extensive involvement of the Turks with future procurements and wants commonality of platform engines which would be more economical in the long term. I can easily see a need for upto 80 attack platforms of such nature in PAA and if we had a common engine life would be so much more simpler and commonality of engine would ease depot level maintenance plus further acquisitions would be easier and cheaper to procure.
Z10 which people are harping on about needs to evolve further and be tested once again. PAA will surely retest the platform and possibly induct them in the role which it invisioned for the AH1Zs as they do not appear to be coming if open source news is to be believed. If the latter come it will ease the pressures on PAA and allow them to wait for both the other platforms to mature.
This remains my thoughts so let us see what transpires.
A

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## doorstar

araz said:


> I have been told on this forum by responsible persons that the engines for the said platforms had already been acquired. In this light one wonders what has happened.


acquired means nothing without an accompanying resale license

reminder:


araz said:


> It remains a fact irrespective of your name calling that the Engines have not been approved for sale to PAA. So currently if the available information is true then the Helos are not approved for sale to us. The Turks were looking for alternate suppliers of Engines but with a changed engine it will require re testing.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I guess Pakistan has no choice now but to just stick with this deal unless Pakistan can start building their own.
> 
> It cost Turkey/Italy just $3.2 billion to design and build the T129 Atak helicopter and Pakistan has spent $1.5 billion just purchasing it (plus $1 billion on the AH-1Zs).
> 
> I am sure Pakistan could've easily done a helicopter JV with China with that sort of money to build the machines suited for Pakistan.
> 
> I am not sure what the logic was for Pakistani Army going for this sanction-prone deal while PAF successfully managed to free itself from US with the JF-17 Thunder program.


What We have paid for AH 1Zs?
@HRK


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## CHI RULES

mingle said:


> If deal went through is great but if it doesn't Army should make an open bidding as @Quwa wrote in his blog for atleast 100 Helis for local assembly to replace cobras too let's see how it pans out Army's requirements.



Perhaps PA shall go for two attack helis one light to medium from China and one from Russia if allowed, heavy one.


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## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What We have paid for AH 1Zs?
> @HRK


less then 1 billion US dollars for whole package [+950 million]


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## Haris Ali2140

HRK said:


> less then 1 billion US dollars for whole package [+950 million]


From CSF or Real Hard Cash in Dollars???


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## HRK

Haris Ali2140 said:


> From CSF or Real Hard Cash in Dollars???


well we have not seen any approval from US congress so I don't think its was grant or security funding, as far as CSF is concern it is also our own money which US is not paying back to us ....

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## fatman17

T129 option is closed. 
AH1Z option remains closed until end 2020 or next US elections. 
Options open 
China 
Russia 
SAfrica 
Even refurbished AH1S Cobras remains closed. Good thing is that Army not conducting any kinetic ops, so depot level maintenance is the main priority.

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## Pakistani Fighter

fatman17 said:


> T129 option is closed.


Confirmed? Haven't we paid for them?


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## JPMM

fatman17 said:


> T129 option is closed.
> AH1Z option remains closed until end 2020 or next US elections.
> Options open
> China
> Russia
> SAfrica
> Even refurbished AH1S Cobras remains closed. Good thing is that Army not conducting any kinetic ops, so depot level maintenance is the main priority.


More Mi35 and go for Z10ME.
Dont wast time, develop Z10 the same way as JF17

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## Phantom.

we should just go with z10me.


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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Alice wells is coming pak for 4day trip I believe this engine issue will go through along our cobras


that witch is here to perform falatio on the indians.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

JPMM said:


> More Mi35 and go for Z10ME.
> Dont wast time, develop Z10 the same way as JF17



Z-10s were rejected after the trials because the engine wasn't powerful enough to perform well when the machine was fully loaded. Hence, Pakistan went for the T-129.

Turkey needs to pull some strings and acquire another engine off-the-shelf (if possible) from Russia for Pakistani T-129s. Pakistan can't wait five years for Turkish engines to come online.

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## Zarvan

Z-10 with WZ-15 engine is the way forward. @Deino


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Zarvan said:


> Z-10 with WZ-15 engine is the way forward. @Deino



Which Pakistani rotor or fixed-wing aircraft flies with a Chinese engine to date?


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## Imran Khan

here goes dream of day dreamers in drain

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> that witch is here to perform falatio on the indians.


Indian have small size this time its Pak turn she is coming for security matters. Well she tweeted about resumption of training but hint no resumption of security assistance yet she used word yet means they gonna resume soon. It's important for US to have strong military and economic relationship with Pak was Afghanistan now add Iran too in equation.So I believe after this trip we will see progress in all matters.
Also US is not giving any waiver to India over S400 deal means India has to give in further due to economic slowdown and turmoil India facing.
India's case is simple US wants a trade deal with India which suits US not India but India is stuck with Kashmir Pak China and now this citizens bill So far US approach is very soft but can twist Indian arms anytime they like. My take India will give in current scenario india has no choice let's see.


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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Indian have small size this time its Pak turn she is coming for security matters. Well she tweeted about resumption of training but hint no resumption of security assistance yet she used word yet means they gonna resume soon. It's important for US to have strong military and economic relationship with Pak was Afghanistan now add Iran too in equation.So I believe after this trip we will see progress in all matters.


history teaches us that you can NEVER trust the yanks! they have a habit of bullying you and when you can't be bullied then they start negotiating with you. even then its nothing more than a farce. after this trip I wager that nothing will get better. I believe we should keep minimal contact with them and that's it. It is our nikama-pan that we cannot find markets for our goods and thanks two two crooks and their team we have almost nothing to export.


mingle said:


> Also US is not giving any waiver to India over S400 deal means India has to give in further due to economic slowdown and turmoil India facing.


I don't think india will have issues with their purchase off S400 because unlike Turkey they have had a smooth sailing in purchasing S400.


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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> history teaches us that you can NEVER trust the yanks! they have a habit of bullying you and when you can't be bullied then they start negotiating with you. even then its nothing more than a farce. after this trip I wager that nothing will get better. I believe we should keep minimal contact with them and that's it. It is our nikama-pan that we cannot find markets for our goods and thanks two two crooks and their team we have almost nothing to export.
> 
> I don't think india will have issues with their purchase off S400 because unlike Turkey they have had a smooth sailing in purchasing S400.


Only if india give trade concession to US.
True but Pak should ask US for more trade quota along CSF subsidies arms purchase no need for assistance trade along CSF arm purchase is way to Pak.

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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Only if india give trade concession to US.
> True but Pak should ask US for more trade quota along CSF subsidies arms purchase no need for assistance trade along CSF arm purchase is way to Pak.


you know it better than I, there will be nothing good coming from this sphere. The focus is on China for that reason. I think all the witch will do is sorcery trying to wedge with China but the likelihood of that happening is null.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A combination of Helicopter force based on 


T-129 Gunship
Italian Augusta Transport 
South African Puma Multipurpose helicopters (TOT)

Works well in my opinion

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> you know it better than I, there will be nothing good coming from this sphere. The focus is on China for that reason. I think all the witch will do is sorcery trying to wedge with China but the likelihood of that happening is null.


True but putting all eggs in one basket is not wise either China is not alternate to US. The thing is we need a better dealing with US all need help in trade and CSF arm purchase not beg for money like Kerry luger or military aid 500 million per year no need that this will give leverage to Pak as well its an emerging market for US.shoud have a formula to win win situation and for long term we don't need hostality with Iran either but we can't stay away from regional situation too.

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## Haris Ali2140

mingle said:


> True but putting all eggs in one basket is not wise either China is not alternate to US. The thing is we need a better dealing with US all need help in trade and CSF arm purchase not beg for money like Kerry luger or military aid 500 million per year no need that this will give leverage to Pak as well its an emerging market for US.


Balance out China with US.

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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Balance out China with US.


Yes US means EU and UK too they all run on US strings including GCC need to develop a solid partnership with all these folks.

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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> True but putting all eggs in one basket is not wise either China is not alternate to US. The thing is we need a better dealing with US all need help in trade and CSF arm purchase not beg for money like Kerry luger or military aid 500 million per year no need that this will give leverage to Pak as well its an emerging market for US.


the establishment in Pakistan said keep your money, mind you they owe Pakistan huge sums and they money withheld is for using Pakistani airspace and land routes. But they told them _khao khasma nu_ and started moving even closer to China. China can be a bigger market for Pakistan and with China giving more concessions to products is extremely positive.

We need to re-explore options and consider things that centres around the fact that the yanks are NOT our friends.


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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> the establishment in Pakistan said keep your money, mind you they owe Pakistan huge sums and they money withheld is for using Pakistani airspace and land routes. But they told them _khao khasma nu_ and started moving even closer to China. China can be a bigger market for Pakistan and with China giving more concessions to products is extremely positive.
> 
> We need to re-explore options and consider things that centres around the fact that the yanks are NOT our friends.


That's not easy CSF is our money also little tidbit pak is thrid largest importer of US cotton and LPG also importer for US Cows.Next step is US entering into meat market of Pak and prossed food we need to exploit our potential. 
Miss wells trip I hope will be fruitful for Pak and Trump style is simple trade and CSF money purchase of Arms no Aid and we don't need either


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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> That's not easy CSF is our money also little tidbit pak is thrid largest importer of US cotton and LPG also importer for US Cows.Next step is US entering into meat market of Pak and prossed food we need to exploit our potential.
> Miss wells trip I hope will be fruitful for Pak and Trump style is simple trade and CSF money purchase of Arms no Aid and we don't need either


personally I am not anticipating anything positive. Lets see what actually happens.

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> personally I am not anticipating anything positive. Lets see what actually happens.


I am always if there is no juice trust me she wouldn't come time to stream line issues irritate Pak America relations


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Blows my mind why we are not entering in JVs with countries like South Africa, Brazil, Ukraine etc.

Its always us going to the US or China and now Turkey (they themselves are in a crunch thanks to uncle sam).

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## mingle

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Blows my mind why we are not entering in JVs with countries like South Africa, Brazil, Ukraine etc.
> 
> Its always us going to the US or China and now Turkey (they themselves are in a crunch thanks to uncle sam).


Rooviak Attack Heli with SA along Transport plane with Ukraine very possible and workable

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## mingle

mingle said:


> Rooviak Attack Heli with SA along Transport plane with Ukraine very possible and workable


It's not my idea it's Bilal @Quwa thought still we can do it

Pak should negotiate Denel 2 Billion can solve our problem for Attacks Heli once for all

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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> Rooviak Attack Heli with SA along Transport plane with Ukraine very possible and workable





mingle said:


> It's not my idea it's Bilal @Quwa thought still we can do it
> 
> Pak should negotiate Denel 2 Billion can solve our problem for Attacks Heli once for all




We need local production for helicopters.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yep.

One idea is picking up Denel's Rooivalk Mk2.

Denel is mostly using the same design, but I think there's scope for replacing the engine and dynamic parts with newer versions. Remember, the Rooivalk is derived from the Puma, so Pakistan could speak to Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group to provide new engines and critical components (from the H225m Caracal).

It's doable, though it may require us to give Airbus something in return, like another helicopter order. The key point though is that neither the Makila 2A engine or the H225M are 'new' systems. They're extensively updated versions of older technology, so getting deep ToT for them isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Again, it depends on what we're willing to give to Airbus. First, I'd agree with Airbus to pay a license fee for every Rooivalk Mk2 sold overseas (assuming we get exports, which I doubt). Second, we can look at replacing our older Mi-17s and Sea Kings with the H225M, which would have deep commonality with the Rooivalk Mk2. Finally, but in the long-term, we can gradually replace the rest of the Mi-17/171s with H225Ms.

We look at manufacturing the Rooivalk Mk2 (with South Africa), and we co-produce (but mostly import) the H225M from Europe. It's a win-win for all sides involved, and probably not the most expensive option either.

The alternative to that is that we go completely clean-sheet by joining in Turkey's ATAK-2 and 10-ton General Purpose Helicopter (GPH). The ATAK-2 and GPH will likely use the same engine, critical parts, etc, so the deep commonality is there as well. And we know for a fact that Turkey is looking for partners to share in its projects, which would help it build economies-of-scale, distribute R&D funding, etc.

We can gradually replace the Puma and Mi-171 with the GPH, while make the ATAK-2 our mainstay attack helicopter (esp. for anti-armour operations). This approach will see us integrate our supply chain with Turkey as well.

Finally, we could also work with Leonardo on the AW149 and AH249. Like the ATAK-2/GPH and Rooivalk/Caracal, the AW149 and AW249 will have deep commonality with one another. The engine would come from Safran Group, so an ITAR-free option. I'm not sure how much Leonardo will share with us, but if we commit to large orders and foot a portion of the development costs, we should get something meaningful (50/50 co-production).

If we want to get imaginative, we can also work with Turkey on a custom 6-7-ton variant of the T129. So, it'd use the Turkish engine and co-developed avionics and weapons. But we ask to manufacture it turnkey in Pakistan (while Turkey moves onto the ATAK-2). We make this helicopter our mainstay, manufacture 120~180 of them.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> We need local production for helicopters.


So true only possible with Denel. Pak has to make a choice here simple. 
@Quwa Rooviak 2 seems great and heavy duty with 3 hard points each side. What ur take on cost and off the shelf purchase????


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> So true only possible with Denel. Pak has to make a choice here simple.
> @Quwa Rooviak 2 seems great and heavy duty with 3 hard points each side. What ur take on cost and off the shelf purchase????


Not sure about cost, but I believe most of it was a write down from the 1990s. So, any new cost is the cost of integrating new systems and of course building new prototypes. Can't be more than $500 m, @denel ??

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not sure about cost, but I believe most of it was a write down from the 1990s. So, any new cost is the cost of integrating new systems and of course building new prototypes. Can't be more than $500 m, @denel ??


 question did Pak paid anything to turkey or US already paid what will be theior future?? Both money and material???


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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep.
> 
> One idea is picking up Denel's Rooivalk Mk2.
> 
> Denel is mostly using the same design, but I think there's scope for replacing the engine and dynamic parts with newer versions. Remember, the Rooivalk is derived from the Puma, so Pakistan could speak to Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group to provide new engines and critical components (from the H225m Caracal).
> 
> It's doable, though it may require us to give Airbus something in return, like another helicopter order. The key point though is that neither the Makila 2A engine or the H225M are 'new' systems. They're extensively updated versions of older technology, so getting deep ToT for them isn't out of the realm of possibility.
> 
> Again, it depends on what we're willing to give to Airbus. First, I'd agree with Airbus to pay a license fee for every Rooivalk Mk2 sold overseas (assuming we get exports, which I doubt). Second, we can look at replacing our older Mi-17s and Sea Kings with the H225M, which would have deep commonality with the Rooivalk Mk2. Finally, but in the long-term, we can gradually replace the rest of the Mi-17/171s with H225Ms.
> 
> We look at manufacturing the Rooivalk Mk2 (with South Africa), and we co-produce (but mostly import) the H225M from Europe. It's a win-win for all sides involved, and probably not the most expensive option either.
> 
> The alternative to that is that we go completely clean-sheet by joining in Turkey's ATAK-2 and 10-ton General Purpose Helicopter (GPH). The ATAK-2 and GPH will likely use the same engine, critical parts, etc, so the deep commonality is there as well. And we know for a fact that Turkey is looking for partners to share in its projects, which would help it build economies-of-scale, distribute R&D funding, etc.
> 
> We can gradually replace the Puma and Mi-171 with the GPH, while make the ATAK-2 our mainstay attack helicopter (esp. for anti-armour operations). This approach will see us integrate our supply chain with Turkey as well.
> 
> Finally, we could also work with Leonardo on the AW149 and AH249. Like the ATAK-2/GPH and Rooivalk/Caracal, the AW149 and AW249 will have deep commonality with one another. The engine would come from Safran Group, so an ITAR-free option. I'm not sure how much Leonardo will share with us, but if we commit to large orders and foot a portion of the development costs, we should get something meaningful (50/50 co-production).
> 
> If we want to get imaginative, we can also work with Turkey on a custom 6-7-ton variant of the T129. So, it'd use the Turkish engine and co-developed avionics and weapons. But we ask to manufacture it turnkey in Pakistan (while Turkey moves onto the ATAK-2). We make this helicopter our mainstay, manufacture 120~180 of them.


Either Italian beacuse we already using theior Aw139 or South African route puma and Rooviak combo will work for Us I don't see any issues with engines from Airbus we can make PIA deal with them too. Turkish engines are yrs away look another 7 - 10 yrs to mature we need something ASAP. Army should look out of box solution once for all like JF17

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not sure about cost, but I believe most of it was a write down from the 1990s. So, any new cost is the cost of integrating new systems and of course building new prototypes. Can't be more than $500 m, @denel ??


Correct, it is much less than that; I believe rooivalt/oryx route was always the best way - 2 birds with one stone. A complete home industry for medium lift and gunship at same time. I still remember when we offered it to Turks back then and they were lobbied hard by US and EU consortiums and we lost out.

There is an upgrade underway already. Was asked if i was interested but I declined. I no longer can see well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Correct, it is much less than that; I believe rooivalt/oryx route was always the best way - 2 birds with one stone. A complete home industry for medium lift and gunship at same time. I still remember when we offered it to Turks back then and they were lobbied hard by US and EU consortiums and we lost out.


Instead of the Oryx, I'd pair the Rooivalk Mk2 with the H225M Caracal. The main reason for this is to secure Airbus' support, so select one of their existing products. Pakistan can slot in the H225M to replace its older Mi-17s and the Pumas, and over the long-term, phase-out the remaining Mi-17/171s with the H225M.



mingle said:


> Either Italian beacuse we already using theior Aw139 or South African route puma and Rooviak combo will work for Us I don't see any issues with engines from Airbus we can make PIA deal with them too. Turkish engines are yrs away look another 7 - 10 yrs to mature we need something ASAP. Army should look out of box solution once for all like JF17


The Leonardo AH249 sits in a good size/payload range (8-9 tons), similar to the AH-1Z. In this case, you can standardize on the AH249 for most attack helicopter units, and then pick-up the AW149 to replace the Pumas. However, a navalized variant of the AW149 for the PN would also be neat, it should be small enough for the PN's future frigates/corvettes too.

However, I'd prefer the Rooivalk Mk2/Caracal route. Yes, it's older technology, but it works and Airbus/Safran might be more willing to release ToT for it than any of the new stuff.

In this case I would stick with the T129 because it works well in high-altitude environments (we can build a high-alt nucleus with T129, AW139 and H125M), but for anti-armour, build a large attack helicopter force with the Rooivalk Mk2. I'd aim for disproportionate numbers of attack helicopters.

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## Gryphon

Thread turning garbage with endless wishlists and 'ideas' - repeat them a hundred times!!


The PAA sticking to the T129 ATAK despite all the delays created by US hints that the people privy to the matter still see chances of the helo arriving in Pak.

Otherwise, the ATAK contract would have been scrapped and that with the Chinese knocking at the door.

Mi-17 replacement talk is laughable - the only helo that can replace Mi-17 in PAA is Mi-17 itself - and it already is.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Thread turning garbage with endless wishlists and 'ideas' - repeat them a hundred times!!
> 
> 
> The PAA sticking to the T129 ATAK despite all the delays created by US hints that the people privy to the matter still see chances of the helo arriving in Pak.
> 
> Otherwise, the ATAK contract would have been scrapped and that with the Chinese knocking at the door.
> 
> Mi-17 replacement talk is laughable - the only helo that can replace Mi-17 in PAA is Mi-17 itself - and it already is.


Sorry boss

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> Thread turning garbage with endless wishlists and 'ideas' - repeat them a hundred times!!
> 
> 
> The PAA sticking to the T129 ATAK despite all the delays created by US hints that the people privy to the matter still see chances of the helo arriving in Pak.
> 
> Otherwise, the ATAK contract would have been scrapped and that with the Chinese knocking at the door.
> 
> Mi-17 replacement talk is laughable - the only helo that can replace Mi-17 in PAA is Mi-17 itself - and it already is.


but roovalk is a great catch!

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Path-Finder said:


> personally I am not anticipating anything positive. Lets see what actually happens.



What will happen is that if timely action is not taken then Pakistan Army's Aviation wing will be going through its version of the "lost decade".

Pakistan has given Turkey only one year delay limit. I hope the planners are busy with a contingency plan.

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## Path-Finder

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> What will happen is that if timely action is not taken then Pakistan Army's Aviation wing will be going through its version of the "lost decade".
> 
> Pakistan has given Turkey only one year delay limit. I hope the planners are busy with a contingency plan.


I wouldn't be that disheartened, there are options on the table that were not present 15 years ago. Today you are spoilt for choices.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Path-Finder said:


> I wouldn't be that disheartened, there are options on the table that were not present 15 years ago. Today you are spoilt for choices.



True but those choices need to be made in a timely manner and not get spoilt like the Indians.

Remember, Pakistan started trialing the Z-10s in 2015, it was rejected and T-129 ATAK was selected in 2018. It also ordred AH-1Zs in 2016 which is now frozen. Pakistan was supposed to start receiving both platforms from 2018 onwards. It's now 2020.

I hope you wouldn't want any Pakistani Prime Minister saying in the future, "Agar apna helicopter hota, to phir yeh na hota."


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> but roovalk is a great catch!


maybe if we wish hard enough, Rooivalk Mk2 will come true.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> maybe if we wish hard enough, Rooivalk Mk2 will come true.


I hope so.

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## fatman17

Nope


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Confirmed? Haven't we paid for them?


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## fatman17

Z9ers


Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Which Pakistani rotor or fixed-wing aircraft flies with a Chinese engine to date?


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## LKJ86

Zarvan said:


> Z-10 with WZ-15 engine is the way forward. @Deino


What is the WZ-15 engine? Do you mean WZ-16 engine?

I think China would prefer to choose WZ-10 engine, the engine of Z-20 helicopter, to develop a new gunship about 10 tons.


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> but roovalk is a great catch!



Army isn't into funding developments and there is no cash available either.

The US$ 1.565 bn T129 ATAK program (for 30× helos) is supported through a loan, and heavy attack helicopter acquisition isn't envisaged in high numbers for obvious reasons.

Now, where does Rooivalk Mk2 fit in?
Aren't there reasons behind Turkey offering Pak joining their utility/transport helo programs?


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## kursed

A Z10 derivate, made part of CPEC security package remains Pakistan's only viable choice and eventually will be taken up, by mid-year.


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## SD 10

All those people who wants western stuff will be disappointed again and again till they learn to live with reality. Z10me is the way to go ......
Turkish brothers are dependent on west and incase you guys haven't notice, we are not in western camp. All those generals who started this procurement should be held responsible for damaging country's defence.

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## Zarvan

LKJ86 said:


> What is the WZ-15 engine? Do you mean WZ-16 engine?
> 
> I think China would prefer to choose WZ-10 engine, the engine of Z-20 helicopter, to develop a new gunship about 10 tons.


Yes that one


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## Great Janjua

The Turkish option is the best they are also offering us joint production off their new 10 ton support helicopters and the 6 ton one as well


Gryphon said:


> Army isn't into funding developments and there is no cash available either.
> 
> The US$ 1.565 bn T129 ATAK program (for 30× helos) is supported through a loan, and heavy attack helicopter acquisition isn't envisaged in high numbers for obvious reasons.
> 
> Now, where does Rooivalk Mk2 fit in?
> Aren't there reasons behind Turkey offering Pak joining their utility/transport helo programs?


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## nomi007

still many alternative available


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> Army isn't into funding developments and there is no cash available either.
> 
> The US$ 1.565 bn T129 ATAK program (for 30× helos) is supported through a loan, and heavy attack helicopter acquisition isn't envisaged in high numbers for obvious reasons.
> 
> Now, where does Rooivalk Mk2 fit in?
> Aren't there reasons behind Turkey offering Pak joining their utility/transport helo programs?


I agree in that the PAA won't acquire a heavy attack helicopter in large numbers. But the hold on the AH-1Z has left a void in that capability, so they'd either fill it by adding more T129s OR look at an alternative off the shelf. The latter option is basically either just pay for the AH-1Z, or wait on China or Turkey to develop their solutions and order from them.

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## Great Janjua

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree in that the PAA won't acquire a heavy attack helicopter in large numbers. But the hold on the AH-1Z has left a void in that capability, so they'd either fill it by adding more T129s OR look at an alternative off the shelf. The latter option is basically either just pay for the AH-1Z, or wait on China or Turkey to develop their solutions and order from them.


The Turks are developing a new heavy attack helicopter it will take its first flight in the near future Inshallah the turks are offering us many helicopter options for co production

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree in that the PAA won't acquire a heavy attack helicopter in large numbers. But the hold on the AH-1Z has left a void in that capability, so they'd either fill it by adding more T129s OR look at an alternative off the shelf. The latter option is basically either just pay for the AH-1Z, or wait on China or Turkey to develop their solutions and order from them.



Either will, will have to pay for a heavy helicopter and my guess is Pakistan is waiting to get the hold on funds released to pay for the AH-1Zs and since the anti-terror ops are now mostly over, the need to replace the AH-1Fs has gone down a lot. Not to mention, they are already getting refurbished in Pakistan and they have decided its better to wait out then rush in to buy a replacement. That is probably why T-129 is still on the cards despite delays for the engine due to the US-Turkey relationships (they will mend fences eventually or Turkey will find a replacement engine sooner or later).


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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree in that the PAA won't acquire a heavy attack helicopter in large numbers. But the hold on the AH-1Z has left a void in that capability, so they'd either fill it by adding more T129s OR look at an alternative off the shelf. The latter option is basically either just pay for the AH-1Z, or wait on China or Turkey to develop their solutions and order from them.



The point is additional medium attack helicopters can't substitute heavies (like AH-1Z) as the latter are assessed more favourable in PA's domain of operations.

If CSF/FMF isn't secured, PA will probably seek Russian in small batches, else wait for AW / TAI.


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## PAR 5

By mid next year, this ATAK Helicopter Contract will be cancelled due to non delivery and PAA will be than going after the Chinese CATIC to provide the WZ-10 with ''hot-high'' engine option.

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## Path-Finder

PAR 5 said:


> By mid next year, this ATAK Helicopter Contract will be cancelled due to non delivery and PAA will be than going after the Chinese CATIC to provide the WZ-10 with ''hot-high'' engine option.


I think due to the circumstances we seem to be heading in this direction. or maybe rooivalk can be re-visited.

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## xbat

i think TAI wouldnt like to lose a costumer so they would integrate new TEI engine on ATAK and test it with pakistani pilots before due date of agreement.


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## KapitaanAli

Those who're talking about Rooivalk should think about why the program has been in shambles. Pakistan will have to invest in Denel much more than what Turkey did with AW, since AW already had the full helicopter ready, with lower import content than that of Rooivalk.

And then you can wait years.


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## PAR 5

Path-Finder said:


> I think due to the circumstances we seem to be heading in this direction. or maybe rooivalk can be re-visited.


Rooivalk was never an option, the South Africans after having a bad experience of not being able to sell the mobile Howitzer will be extremely reluctant to provide a free helicopter for trials in Pakistan


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## Baybars Han

It's not as easy as that. It's not plug and play let's change engine


nomi007 said:


> Unfortunately Turkish are making us fool.
> why they are not offering an alternative western engine for T-129.

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## Pakistani Fighter

GriffinsRule said:


> Not to mention, they are already getting refurbished in Pakistan


Can we upgrade them to S standad?


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## nomi007

Baybars Han said:


> It's not as easy as that. It's not plug and play let's change engine


why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant


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## Mrc

nomi007 said:


> why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant




Thats a valid question

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## xbat

nomi007 said:


> why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant


firstly, it is not rejected by the US government officially yet.
secondly , size, performance , reliability , economy etc very important, for example russian engines are junk, their engines have too much IR signature which is cause to target for IR guided missiles, IR suppressors doesnt work well for them. you can fly a helicopter with them but high performance modern heli engine is a bit different. European options are also limited and prone to sanctions too

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## dBSPL

nomi007 said:


> why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant


1- Because Turkey is focused on entirely own(or fully authorized) intellectual properties solutions, due to other future platform plannings. TEI, TRmotor, Tümosan, BMC etc. I think the largest funding support is being used for the engine industries currently. Overcoming this problem forever is now the most important priority of the SSB. Also There are many strategic partnerships with both the UK and Ukraine.

2- TS1400 program exceeded expectations. It is likely to be the most successful project in the history of Turkish defense industry to date. This pushed the other options into the background.

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## BHarwana

Pakistan has extended Turkey's deadline to deliver T-129 

The helos are coming.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

KapitaanAli said:


> Those who're talking about Rooivalk should think about why the program has been in shambles. Pakistan will have to invest in Denel much more than what Turkey did with AW, since AW already had the full helicopter ready, with lower import content than that of Rooivalk.
> 
> And then you can wait years.


IIRC most of the Rooivalk's development cost was written down after the 1990s. The project Denel is proposing is basically (1) reviving the manufacturing line and (2) upgrading the platform. The intended upgrades are primarily in terms of electronics and munitions, but the airframe and engine will remain the same. So, the net-cost (after write-down) shouldn't be as much as the T129. Even the engine is an old (but still produced) platform (Makila).

That said, if the costs are higher, then that is the cost of bringing an attack helicopter production line to Pakistan, especially a heavyweight platform for anti-armour operations. It's a cost we will run into eventually, just as the PAF had run into with regard to fighters (twice now). Yes, it'll push procurement back by a few years, but our GHQ has a policy of de-escalation, affording us space for this kind of development. 

India is building a solid mix of lightweight (5-6 ton) and heavyweight (10+ ton) attack helicopters via the LUH and Apache, respectively. I'd much rather we counter this disproportionately by building a large fleet (120+) of 9-10+ ton attack helicopters. The procurement cost is higher, but with a local production line we can stream a low-rate induction (5~6 helicopters a year).

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## KapitaanAli

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC most of the Rooivalk's development cost was written down after the 1990s. The project Denel is proposing is basically (1) reviving the manufacturing line and (2) upgrading the platform. The intended upgrades are primarily in terms of electronics and munitions, but the airframe and engine will remain the same. So, the net-cost (after write-down) shouldn't be as much as the T129. Even the engine is an old (but still produced) platform (Makila).
> 
> That said, if the costs are higher, then that is the cost of bringing an attack helicopter production line to Pakistan, especially a heavyweight platform for anti-armour operations. It's a cost we will run into eventually, just as the PAF had run into with regard to fighters (twice now). Yes, it'll push procurement back by a few years, but our GHQ has a policy of de-escalation, affording us space for this kind of development.
> 
> India is building a solid mix of lightweight (5-6 ton) and heavyweight (10+ ton) attack helicopters via the LUH and Apache, respectively. I'd much rather we counter this disproportionately by building a large fleet (120+) of 9-10+ ton attack helicopters. The procurement cost is higher, but with a local production line we can stream a low-rate induction (5~6 helicopters a year).


I'm talking about Denel having to localize the imported content themselves first. They're dependent on Eurocopter/Airbus for vital components, aren't they? Much worse than what AW imported for A129. Airbus would rather sell their own helis.

You always say LUH instead of LCH, I think. LUH is the Light Utility Helicopter.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

KapitaanAli said:


> I'm talking about Denel having to localize the imported content themselves first. They're dependent on Eurocopter/Airbus for vital components, aren't they? Much worse than what AW imported for A129. Airbus would rather sell their own helis.
> 
> You always say LUH instead of LCH, I think. LUH is the Light Utility Helicopter.


Yep -- LCH*

The Rooivalk relies on Safran's engines and some critical inputs from Airbus. But Airbus doesn't offer a heavyweight attack helicopter like the Rooivalk, while the Tiger is on the wind-down. There was a conflict of interest back in the early 2000s, but not so much now. If anything, Airbus might try pushing the Super Puma or Caracal (which are in some ways related to the Rooivalk) before helping with the Rooivalk. Pakistan has old Sea Kings and Pumas...


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## Baybars Han

nomi007 said:


> why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant



Because you need to change the whole package, not just the engine. It means change of design because of change of weight, performance paramaters etc

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## BHarwana

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217096597143801856

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## Pakhtoon yum

BHarwana said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217096597143801856


That's not good. Just move on already! Cancel the deal and go for the Z10 and Z20 joint version like jf17


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Now, Pak will get the ATAKs with indigenous engines no matter how long it takes!! What can be a better news?!?

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## BHarwana

Pakhtoon yum said:


> That's not good. Just move on already! Cancel the deal and go for the Z10 and Z20 joint version like jf17


Nope why cancel it buy additional z10 and let T129 come as well. We need them all.

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## Great Janjua

Pakhtoon yum said:


> That's not good. Just move on already! Cancel the deal and go for the Z10 and Z20 joint version like jf17


The Turks are offering us joint production off their upcoming heavy attack helicopter and transport helicopter much better than the Chinese option

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Great Janjua said:


> The Turks are offering us joint production off their upcoming heavy attack helicopter and transport helicopter much better than the Chinese option


It means a whole “ecosystem” of choppers for Pak!! And, they can produce them locally with tons of local inputs at every stage....

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## Great Janjua

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> It means a whole “ecosystem” of choppers for Pak!! And, they can produce them locally with tons of local inputs at every stage....


insha'Allah many more good things to come insha'Allah

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## hussain0216

We need to stick with this

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

hussain0216 said:


> We need to stick with this


“Eat grass” but will have the CHOPPER...

Pak is an adamant nation....

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## blain2

Pakhtoon yum said:


> That's not good. Just move on already! Cancel the deal and go for the Z10 and Z20 joint version like jf17


Why move on? Why not give Turks the support they need to get this right? T-129 is a good product. They have their first international contract with Pakistan and Pakistan can afford to wait. 

This is how the eco-system will be built. It won't be easy but in the long run, it is laying the foundation of an independent military-industrial complex in the Muslim world that is free from sanctions and arm twisting by the dominating powers.

Pakistan goes the extra mile for Turkey, in the future they too will do it for Pakistan.



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> “Eat grass” but will have the CHOPPER...
> 
> Pak is an adamant nation....


Absolutely. Once bitten, twice shy. I think both Pakistan and Turkey can relate to that.

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## undercover JIX

*Pakistan extends Turkey’s deadline to deliver T129 helos*
By: Burak Ege Bekdil   7 hours ago
U.S. reluctance to grant Turkey technology export licenses.

With the American move now seriously jeopardizing the sale, the Turkish government has tasked Tusas Engine Industries, TAI’s sister company, with developing an indigenous engine for the T129.

“Pakistan has agreed to give us another year [to resolve the problem]. We hope we will be able to develop our indigenous engine soon to power the T129,” Ismail Demir, the head of Turkey’s top procurement agency, said Jan. 6. “After one year, Pakistan may be satisfied with the level of progress in our engine program, or the U.S. may grant us the export license.”

In 2018, TAI signed a $1.5 billion agreement to sell a batch of 30 T129 helos to Pakistan. However, the company needs to secure U.S. export licenses for any export deal with a third country. TAI produces the 5-ton attack helicopter, which is based on its predecessor, the A129 Mangusta.

The T129 is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter produced under license from the Italian-British company AgustaWestland. It’s powered by two LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines. Each engine can produce 1,014 kilowatts of output power. The T800-4A is an export version of the CTS800 engine. LHTEC, the maker of the engine, is a joint venture between the American firm Honeywell and the British company Rolls-Royce.

A procurement source told Defense News on Jan. 10 that Pakistan is also lobbying the U.S. to support the deal.

But U.S. diplomatic sources in Ankara said it’s unlikely Washington will issue the license given the cold nature of U.S.-Turkish defense procurement ties. The U.S. last year suspended Turkey’s membership in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program in response to Turkey’s acquisition of the Russian-made S-400 air defense system.

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But industry sources warn that any successful engine development program would take at least five to 10 years.

TAI recently delivered its 56th helicopter gunship to the Turkish military.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...tends-turkeys-deadline-to-deliver-t129-helos/

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Win-win for both...

_Sabr_ and _Shukr_ under the relentless _Mujadele_...

"Eat grass" but have the CHOPPER...

*Whenever Pak gets into "eat grass" mode it's the time to panic for her enemies!!! The greatest "eat grass" moment/act/scene etc. IMO is that vis-à-vis India

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## StormBreaker

undercover JIX said:


> *Pakistan extends Turkey’s deadline to deliver T129 helos*
> By: Burak Ege Bekdil   7 hours ago
> U.S. reluctance to grant Turkey technology export licenses.
> 
> With the American move now seriously jeopardizing the sale, the Turkish government has tasked Tusas Engine Industries, TAI’s sister company, with developing an indigenous engine for the T129.
> 
> “Pakistan has agreed to give us another year [to resolve the problem]. We hope we will be able to develop our indigenous engine soon to power the T129,” Ismail Demir, the head of Turkey’s top procurement agency, said Jan. 6. “After one year, Pakistan may be satisfied with the level of progress in our engine program, or the U.S. may grant us the export license.”
> 
> In 2018, TAI signed a $1.5 billion agreement to sell a batch of 30 T129 helos to Pakistan. However, the company needs to secure U.S. export licenses for any export deal with a third country. TAI produces the 5-ton attack helicopter, which is based on its predecessor, the A129 Mangusta.
> 
> The T129 is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter produced under license from the Italian-British company AgustaWestland. It’s powered by two LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines. Each engine can produce 1,014 kilowatts of output power. The T800-4A is an export version of the CTS800 engine. LHTEC, the maker of the engine, is a joint venture between the American firm Honeywell and the British company Rolls-Royce.
> 
> A procurement source told Defense News on Jan. 10 that Pakistan is also lobbying the U.S. to support the deal.
> 
> But U.S. diplomatic sources in Ankara said it’s unlikely Washington will issue the license given the cold nature of U.S.-Turkish defense procurement ties. The U.S. last year suspended Turkey’s membership in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program in response to Turkey’s acquisition of the Russian-made S-400 air defense system.
> 
> Sign up for our Early Bird Brief
> Get the defense industry's most comprehensive news and information straight to your inbox
> But industry sources warn that any successful engine development program would take at least five to 10 years.
> 
> TAI recently delivered its 56th helicopter gunship to the Turkish military.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/global/...tends-turkeys-deadline-to-deliver-t129-helos/


@Mangus Ortus Novem 

Do you see this from a different perspective?

A possibility not to be ignored at least !!

The article mentions the engine sourcing issue related to us-turk relations, while at the same time, Pak gives an extended period.

Maybe AH-1Z Vipers coming after all soon !!!

WHAT DO YOU SAY ?

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## -blitzkrieg-

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> "Eat grass" but have the CHOPPER...


We have a 'horse' personality so we dont mind it..

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> We win. Turks win.
> 
> Good that Turks are investing in engine... *down the road we need a lot of helliz...and localised production*.. so I say great news!
> 
> Viperz ... sure... Khafee said so...


You still Didnt get my POV 

“Ye lelo, Engine nai denge”

Off course, the “ye lelo” has many other clauses attached



-blitzkrieg- said:


> We have a 'horse' personality so we dont mind it..


Imam ul haq?

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *Then we must refuse!* *NO MORE!*
> 
> *We don't want to ever hear* *DoMore!*


Hmm
If that’s the attitude during dealings, i wouldnt Relate this news to vipers.

That was a mere poor speculation or guess from my side

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## -blitzkrieg-

StormBreaker said:


> Imam ul haq?



I dont know who he is..
I meant to describe, like a horse, we keep moving, we dont sit and consolidate but rather move and accumulate.


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## StormBreaker

-blitzkrieg- said:


> I dont know who he is..
> I meant to describe, like a horse, we keep moving, we dont sit and consolidate but rather move and accumulate.


You missed the joke...

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## khansaheeb

omg "AgustaWestland"- stay away.

Westland helis were notorius for crashing and the company was bribing customers to buy.


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## Pakhtoon yum

blain2 said:


> Why move on? Why not give Turks the support they need to get this right? T-129 is a good product. They have their first international contract with Pakistan and Pakistan can afford to wait.
> 
> This is how the eco-system will be built. It won't be easy but in the long run, it is laying the foundation of an independent military-industrial complex in the Muslim world that is free from sanctions and arm twisting by the dominating powers.
> 
> Pakistan goes the extra mile for Turkey, in the future they too will do it for Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Once bitten, twice shy. I think both Pakistan and Turkey can relate to that.


Pakistan has NO time



Great Janjua said:


> The Turks are offering us joint production off their upcoming heavy attack helicopter and transport helicopter much better than the Chinese option


Haven't heard any official news, sounds like some YouTube video or something.



BHarwana said:


> Nope why cancel it buy additional z10 and let T129 come as well. We need them all.


Why have redundancies? Who's going to pay for both systems


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## StormBreaker

khansaheeb said:


> omg "AgustaWestland"- stay away.
> 
> Westland helis were notorius for crashing and the company was bribing customers to buy.


O yeah, let’s not buy Boeing anymore because 737 MAX was horrible

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## khansaheeb

StormBreaker said:


> O yeah, let’s not buy Boeing anymore because 737 MAX was horrible


Boeings are always crashing, scary.


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## Path-Finder

damn engine problems.


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## mingle

blain2 said:


> Why move on? Why not give Turks the support they need to get this right? T-129 is a good product. They have their first international contract with Pakistan and Pakistan can afford to wait.
> 
> This is how the eco-system will be built. It won't be easy but in the long run, it is laying the foundation of an independent military-industrial complex in the Muslim world that is free from sanctions and arm twisting by the dominating powers.
> 
> Pakistan goes the extra mile for Turkey, in the future they too will do it for Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Once bitten, twice shy. I think both Pakistan and Turkey can relate to that.


If engine can't direct import by Turkey Pak can import from US directly???


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## dBSPL

- Most probably helicopters of Pakistan Army will have B2 configuration (aka Atak-II). Or there will be an intermediate variant with similar features. That will include the most up-to-date countermeasures , ED and communication systems.

- Engines to be used in helicopters will be completely independent of US restrictions. There will even be D-level maintenance authority over the entire helicopter, including the engine.

- The types of ammunitions to be used shall be customizable to Pakistan's specific needs and will be free from any restrictions. The agreements with Roketsan are largely related to this.

- Turkey's attack helicopter program does not include a single variant. A wide range of programs in 3 main models up to 10ton MTOW and the system's indigenousity rates are increasing day by day. In other words, Pakistan has the chance to meet its needs in the same logistics chain, in the long term, and become the technology partner of the program.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No Major Rush

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## khanasifm

undercover JIX said:


> *Pakistan extends Turkey’s deadline to deliver T129 helos*
> By: Burak Ege Bekdil   7 hours ago
> U.S. reluctance to grant Turkey technology export licenses.
> 
> With the American move now seriously jeopardizing the sale, the Turkish government has tasked Tusas Engine Industries, TAI’s sister company, with developing an indigenous engine for the T129.
> 
> “Pakistan has agreed to give us another year [to resolve the problem]. We hope we will be able to develop our indigenous engine soon to power the T129,” Ismail Demir, the head of Turkey’s top procurement agency, said Jan. 6. “After one year, Pakistan may be satisfied with the level of progress in our engine program, or the U.S. may grant us the export license.”
> 
> In 2018, TAI signed a $1.5 billion agreement to sell a batch of 30 T129 helos to Pakistan. However, the company needs to secure U.S. export licenses for any export deal with a third country. TAI produces the 5-ton attack helicopter, which is based on its predecessor, the A129 Mangusta.
> 
> The T129 is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter produced under license from the Italian-British company AgustaWestland. It’s powered by two LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines. Each engine can produce 1,014 kilowatts of output power. The T800-4A is an export version of the CTS800 engine. LHTEC, the maker of the engine, is a joint venture between the American firm Honeywell and the British company Rolls-Royce.
> 
> A procurement source told Defense News on Jan. 10 that Pakistan is also lobbying the U.S. to support the deal.
> 
> But U.S. diplomatic sources in Ankara said it’s unlikely Washington will issue the license given the cold nature of U.S.-Turkish defense procurement ties. The U.S. last year suspended Turkey’s membership in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program in response to Turkey’s acquisition of the Russian-made S-400 air defense system.
> 
> Sign up for our Early Bird Brief
> Get the defense industry's most comprehensive news and information straight to your inbox
> But industry sources warn that any successful engine development program would take at least five to 10 years.
> 
> TAI recently delivered its 56th helicopter gunship to the Turkish military.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/global/...tends-turkeys-deadline-to-deliver-t129-helos/



This is not the first rejection t-129 was ordered by another customer and eventually due to non availability of engine order was cancelled. At the time there were no issues between turkey and US I think , bottom line why would US encourage competition to its products ???

I read it on Turkish site not sure what country may be Philippine’s??

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## hyperman

I think the blocking of the sale is most likely related to the AH-1Z sale to pakistan, it seems like a very Trump move, to block a competing product if there is a similar product that he is selling to the same country. It would be interesting to see how the ATAK helicopter looks with its domestic engines, and how it performs..

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## mingle

hyperman said:


> I think the blocking of the sale is most likely related to the AH-1Z sale to pakistan, it seems like a very Trump move, to block a competing product if there is a similar product that he is selling to the same country. It would be interesting to see how the ATAK helicopter looks with its domestic engines, and how it performs..


They did before with Pak in F16s PAF wanted used from Belgium but US rejected the proposal even Powell was Secretary of State that time later they offered new ones
If US offered more AH1z to Army I assure U they will pick them Up like hot cakes if that happens it's worth to pick old super cobras as well along will give us decent numbers and quick replacement of our current cobras and wait for turkish engine will take 5 to 10 yrs to mature

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## Trango Towers

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> We win. Turks win.
> 
> Good that Turks are investing in engine... *down the road we need a lot of helliz...and localised production*.. so I say great news!
> 
> Viperz ... sure... Khafee said so...


Khafe says a lot. F16V also have arrived

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

dBSPL said:


> - Most probably helicopters of Pakistan Army will have B2 configuration (aka Atak-II). Or there will be an intermediate variant with similar features. That will include the most up-to-date countermeasures , ED and communication systems.
> 
> - Engines to be used in helicopters will be completely independent of US restrictions. There will even be D-level maintenance authority over the entire helicopter, including the engine.
> 
> - The types of ammunitions to be used shall be customizable to Pakistan's specific needs and will be free from any restrictions. The agreements with Roketsan are largely related to this.
> 
> - Turkey's attack helicopter program does not include a single variant. A wide range of programs in 3 main models up to 10ton MTOW and the system's indigenousity rates are increasing day by day. In other words, Pakistan has the chance to meet its needs in the same logistics chain, in the long term, and become the technology partner of the program.


Wasn't there an ATAK variant that was supposed to use the T625's rotor/dynamic parts and TS1400?

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## dBSPL

dBSPL said:


> - Most probably helicopters of Pakistan Army will have B2 configuration (aka Atak-II). Or there will be an intermediate variant with similar features. That will include the most up-to-date countermeasures , ED and communication systems.
> 
> - Engines to be used in helicopters will be completely independent of US restrictions. There will even be D-level maintenance authority over the entire helicopter, including the engine.
> 
> - The types of ammunitions to be used shall be customizable to Pakistan's specific needs and will be free from any restrictions. The agreements with Roketsan are largely related to this.
> 
> - Turkey's attack helicopter program does not include a single variant. A wide range of programs in 3 main models up to 10ton MTOW and the system's indigenousity rates are increasing day by day. In other words, Pakistan has the chance to meet its needs in the same logistics chain, in the long term, and become the technology partner of the program.


I used an incorrect expression on the back page. I apologize for that. The correct expression should be T-629.

T-129/A EDH (Early Delivery Helicopters which are upgraded to B1-variant later) (2014)- T129/B (2016) and T129/B2/PhaseII (2020 expected): These helicopters are in 5-ton class. T-629 This helicopter will be in the 6-ton class and will also have domestic engines and transmission. ATAK-II Heavy-attack helicopter project in 10 ton class.

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## StormBreaker

dBSPL said:


> - Most probably helicopters of Pakistan Army will have B2 configuration (aka Atak-II). Or there will be an intermediate variant with similar features. That will include the most up-to-date countermeasures , ED and communication systems.
> 
> - Engines to be used in helicopters will be completely independent of US restrictions. There will even be D-level maintenance authority over the entire helicopter, including the engine.
> 
> - The types of ammunitions to be used shall be customizable to Pakistan's specific needs and will be free from any restrictions. The agreements with Roketsan are largely related to this.
> 
> - Turkey's attack helicopter program does not include a single variant. A wide range of programs in 3 main models up to 10ton MTOW and the system's indigenousity rates are increasing day by day. In other words, Pakistan has the chance to meet its needs in the same logistics chain, in the long term, and become the technology partner of the program.


Modify my invoice mate,
I need ToT as well !!!
Nothing less than that



dBSPL said:


> I used an incorrect expression on the back page. I apologize for that. The correct expression should be T-629.
> 
> T-129/A EDH (Early Delivery Helicopters which are upgraded to B1-variant later) (2014)- T129/B (2016) and T129/B2/PhaseII (2020 expected): These helicopters are in 5-ton class. T-629 This helicopter will be in the 6-ton class and will also have domestic engines and transmission. ATAK-II Heavy-attack helicopter project in 10 ton class.




Are you positive? Or just a thought ?


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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> @Mangus Ortus Novem
> 
> Do you see this from a different perspective?
> 
> A possibility not to be ignored at least !!
> 
> The article mentions the engine sourcing issue related to us-turk relations, while at the same time, Pak gives an extended period.
> 
> Maybe AH-1Z Vipers coming after all soon !!!
> 
> WHAT DO YOU SAY ?



Hi,

That is a bad decision---should not have been done---.

Pakistani generals do it to pakistan twice---damage pakistan's integrity---. First by placing the order thru Turkey----knowing very well where the Turkey US and pakistan US relations were headed and now this sabtage again----. 

That puts the program back by 5 years---. The Turkish engine has to go thru the growing pains---.

Should have cancelled the order and gone with China---.

But the pakistani Generals and politicians have already spent the kick backs---or bribes as they call---.

Now they cannot go to china---.

Nation sold for dollars one more time---.



khansaheeb said:


> Boeings are always crashing, scary.



Shot down would be an other definition of boeing.

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## dBSPL

MastanKhan said:


> (...)
> --or bribes as they call---.
> (...)
> Nation sold for dollars one more time---.


Turkish companies bribe Pakistani generals to get this tender? I'd appreciate, if you give some details.

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## MastanKhan

dBSPL said:


> Turkish companies bribe Pakistani generals to get this tender? I'd appreciate, if you give some details.



Hi,

Turkish companies or US companies don't bribe pakistanis---. Pakistanis prepare two contracts---one for the pakistani public---one for the seller to sign---.

For example---pakistanis were told that the US is holding pakistani funds of F16's and payments were being made---continuously---.

When the pakistani ambassdor asked for the money back---the US stated ok---we have your like 400 million dollars---ambassador stated but the deal payment was for 600 million dollars---to that the americans replied---oh---the 200 million dollars was held back for your dear leader Benazir Bhutto---.

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## hyperman

MastanKhan said:


> Should have cancelled the order and gone with China---



I thought the whole point was to diversify the assets, to not be dependent on a single supplier? I think you are selling the Turks short, that is a very good helicopter, and one which can probably be powered by a similar Safran engine or a Ukrainian engine.  
.



MastanKhan said:


> to that the americans replied---oh---the 200 million dollars was held back for your dear leader Benazir Bhutto---.



source?

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## dBSPL

MastanKhan said:


> Pakistani generals do it to pakistan twice---damage pakistan's integrity---. First by placing the order thru Turkey----knowing very well where the Turkey US and pakistan US relations were headed and now this sabtage again----.
> 
> That puts the program back by 5 years---. The Turkish engine has to go thru the growing pains---.
> 
> Should have cancelled the order and gone with China---.



I also need to give a little information about this polemics:

The final explanation about engine was made by Prof. Akşit, GM of TEI.





In the TS1400 project, the core engine was ignited in early 2017. More than hundreds of test procedures were successfully passed for 2 years. The 1500HP variant of engine was assambled in 2019 and succesfully worked. Production planning activities have been ongoing since 2019. The first engine for the T-625 multipurpose helicopter will be delivered in 2020 and will make its first flight this year.Of course, the integration of this engine into the Atak helicopter coul be created a delay for Pakistan, but this turboshaft program of TEI is in more forward phase than you think.

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## Pandora

Even if Turkey develops new engine it will be subjected to rigorous testing in Pakistan under different climates and weather conditions. This mean it will take at least a year for Pakistan to decide it new engine is good enough to operate in pakistani conditions. Turkish engine is new and will have its issues so if we don't get US engines then this deal is as good as dead. Pakistan will most likely approach china or russia for another deal.

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## doorstar

hyperman said:


> it seems like a very Trump move,


from before his time


undercover JIX said:


> Pakistan has agreed to give us another year


 Pakistan would agree to a 50 year extension due to Turks extorting them. if Pakistan were to say enough is enough, the turkeys will demand that Karkey judgment be paid in full


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## dBSPL

The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)

But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?

Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.

As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?

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## GriffinsRule

This is great news and also an indication of how unimpressed Pakistan was with the Chinese alternative. 
I would rather we wait even two years to get a sanctions proof helicopter from Turkey that we can use to build upon our aerospace industry then to throw up our hands and money and jump on a different bandwagon. 
As is, the ops against terrorists have subsided significantly and the current Cobra fleet will soldier on for quiet some time anyways. If we really need a shot in the arm due to any delays in Turkey, the army can always opt to buy Mi-35s, now that we have already got a few in the inventory. 
Good news on all accounts and best of luck to our Turkish brothers in developing an alternate engine.

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## Pakistani Fighter

dBSPL said:


> Most probably helicopters of Pakistan Army will have B2 configuration (aka Atak-II)


Same price?


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## mingle

dBSPL said:


> The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)
> 
> But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?
> 
> Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.
> 
> As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?


Afghanistan US believes Pak has some kind of Magic to solve all her ills in Afghanistan.

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## Invictus.inc

Scrap this bullshit deal
If the Turks can't hold their part of the deal why keep waiting?
It's not like their selling us the hand of the God
It's gonna take another 2 years for them to develop that engine(If ever) not to mention the retrials of the new engines in Pakistans harsh environment

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

GriffinsRule said:


> This is great news and also an indication of how unimpressed Pakistan was with the Chinese alternative.
> I would rather we wait even two years to get a sanctions proof helicopter from Turkey that we can use to build upon our aerospace industry then to throw up our hands and money and jump on a different bandwagon.
> As is, the ops against terrorists have subsided significantly and the current Cobra fleet will soldier on for quiet some time anyways. If we really need a shot in the arm due to any delays in Turkey, the army can always opt to buy Mi-35s, now that we have already got a few in the inventory.
> Good news on all accounts and best of luck to our Turkish brothers in developing an alternate engine.


The Turkish folks are working day and night with the _Ashk-i Ibadet _to get it done...



Invictus.inc said:


> Scrap this bullshit deal
> If the Turks can't hold their part of the deal why keep waiting?
> It's not like their selling us the hand of the God
> It's gonna take another 2 years for them to develop that engine(If ever) not to mention the retrials of the new engines in Pakistans harsh environment


What do you think the benchmark for the Turkish engines would be????


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## LKJ86

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> What do you think the benchmark for the Turkish engines would be????


If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

LKJ86 said:


> If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.


Going for the indigenous engines has always been the ultimate Turkish objective. The Pak deal is an icing in the cake...

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## LKJ86

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Going for the indigenous engines has always been the ultimate Turkish objective. The Pak deal is an icing in the cake...


Maybe you underestimated the meaning of time, especially in competition.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe you underestimated the meaning of time, especially in competition.


Hence, Pak would get the best of the deal for the early bird gets the worm...


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## doorstar

LKJ86 said:


> If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.


turks have leverage, it's like holding a double-barrelled shotgun to someone's head and saying: you agree? victim says: sir, yes sir


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## That Guy

dBSPL said:


> The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)
> 
> But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?
> 
> Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.
> 
> As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?


Why do you think? Once it became clear that the war in Afghanistan became unwinnable, the US government, house, and Senate did what they usually do, find a scape goat.

Ironically, Pres Obama actually wanted the military sales (like the f16s) to go through, but he was vetoed by the Senate.

Pres Trump was antagonistic towards Pakisran, right from the beginning. He made it clear that once he won the election, he'd punish Pakistan. When he came to power, he canceled all military sales and support towards Pakistan, removed all Pakistani personnel attending US military colleges, and stopped all aid programs.

Its only in recent months that relations between Pakistan and the US are finally becoming warmer, but they'll likely never go back to the way they were, as neither side trusts the other like they used to.

As for the T129, if the Turks can successfully build and integrate their own engine, Pakistan will probably be far happier.

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## dBSPL

doorstar said:


> turks have leverage, it's like holding a double-barrelled shotgun to someone's head and saying: you agree? victim says: sir, yes sir


Pakistan didnt know that these helicopters have a LHTEC engine? And what happened Pakistan's 9 Ah-1Zs? Is there no connection between the two problems?

This engine is still coming to Turkey as well, but can not be exported to Pakistan. As far as I know, the United States has no final official decision about reject or approval. As one aspect, subject is related on US blockades on TR's sales... on the other side, its more about Pak-US relationships.

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## Gryphon

dBSPL said:


> The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)
> 
> But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?
> 
> Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.
> 
> As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?





dBSPL said:


> Pakistan didnt know that these helicopters have a LHTEC engine? And what happened Pakistan's 9 Ah-1Zs? Is there no connection between the two problems?
> 
> This engine is still coming to Turkey as well, but can not be exported to Pakistan. As far as I know, the United States has no final official decision about reject or approval. As one aspect, subject is related on US blockades on TR's sales... on the other side, its more about Pak-US relationships.



12× AH-1Z's have been withheld for payment reasons - the US wants Pak to pay with national funds while the latter prefers utilizing CSF/FMF.

Regarding the T129's engine, the US has pulled a "*Killing two birds with one stone"* here. One is TAI, i.e., the prospect of ATAK / ATAK-2 with LHTEC/GE engines competing against American companies worldwide and the other is PAA, presently flying an ageing Cobra fleet, forced to part with national funds.

You may say there are indigenous engines under development, but those don't help improving the short-to-medium term chances of ATAK (and later ATAK-2) since other competitors (Chinese, Italians, etc) are also working on new/improved attack helos.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gryphon said:


> 12× AH-1Z's have been withheld for payment reasons - the US wants Pak to pay with national funds while the latter prefers utilizing CSF/FMF.
> 
> Regarding the T129's engine, the US has pulled a "*Killing two birds with one stone"* here. One is TAI, i.e., the prospect of ATAK / ATAK-2 with LHTEC/GE engines competing against American companies worldwide and the other is PAA, presently flying an ageing Cobra fleet, forced to part with national funds.
> 
> You may say there are indigenous engines under development, but those don't help improving the short-to-medium term chances of ATAK (and later ATAK-2) since other competitors (Chinese, Italians, etc) are also working on new/improved attack helos.


12 AH 1Zs against 30 ATAK1s.

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## python-000

dBSPL said:


> The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)
> 
> But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?
> 
> Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.
> 
> As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?


Because my bro Us want to keep us away from each other...



LKJ86 said:


> Maybe you underestimated the meaning of time, especially in competition.


Yes Pakistan can go for Z-10ME for urgent bases from China if its possible what's your opinion @KLJ86

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## Nasr

In my view, going for T-129s was fraught with liabilities from the get go. Engine issue was just to start things off. There will be other issues that will emerge if Pakistan continues to pursue this deal. Let's face facts, Europe is and will always be under Zionist-America's thumb. So it's useless to select Western platforms when it comes to big ticket acquisitions.

We have seen how America blocked CWF for Pakistan's contribution towards WoT. Followed buy asset acquisition, such as AH-1Zs that are locked away in storage in America. The engine for T-129s, I mean come on, it was gullible to think otherwise.

Proven partners, China (JF-17s/Type-054s/Al-Khalids), Russia (RD-93s, Mi-35s). The track records speaks for itself, as neither country has ever used defense acquisitions of their clients, as political leverage against their clients.

My advice to Pakistan's military establishment is to approach Russia on constructive terms, which would see Pakistan set-up a comprehensive long-lead spare parts supply, establishing a fully concurrent M.R.O facility, which at a later stage will be transformed into a manufacturing facility. The Mi-28 is a very powerful heavy helicopter gunship and can be better suited to Pakistan Army Aviation divisions. Similar arrangements, over gradual progression, ought to be made for the Z-10 Chinese helicopter gunships. 

Pakistan Army can utilize these gunship with deadly consequences for the enemy, in conjunction with it's armored formations. Mechanized Infantry should be equipped with mobile SAM systems that support armored columns.

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## Great Janjua

TAI officials have started again and again that they are offering Pakistan joint production off Helicopters


Pakhtoon yum said:


> Pakistan has NO time
> 
> 
> Haven't heard any official news, sounds like some YouTube video or something.
> 
> 
> Why have redundancies? Who's going to pay for both systems

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## flameboard

I imagine a new engine could take a decade to develop why is there such a high confidence one would be ready shortly?



Pandora said:


> Even if Turkey develops new engine it will be subjected to rigorous testing in Pakistan under different climates and weather conditions. This mean it will take at least a year for Pakistan to decide it new engine is good enough to operate in pakistani conditions. Turkish engine is new and will have its issues so if we don't get US engines then this deal is as good as dead. Pakistan will most likely approach china or russia for another deal.


Russia would probs be a good source for alternative engine options or entirely different heli with similar specs


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## ARMalik

Ok assuming that new Turkish local engine does become a reality, then the new Helicopter with the new engine would need to go through the rigorous testing process which will take time. So I don't think one year extension is enough unless there is something else in the pipeline as an interim measure.

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## War Historian

Sir, last year i read a news about TS1400 , that engine has passed all the tests, if its true then congrats to our Turkish brothers. Pakistan must wait for this engine. Because its a sanctions free for future.


dBSPL said:


> I also need to give a little information about this polemics:
> 
> The final explanation about engine was made by Prof. Akşit, GM of TEI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the TS1400 project, the core engine was ignited in early 2017. More than hundreds of test procedures were successfully passed for 2 years. The 1500HP variant of engine was assambled in 2019 and succesfully worked. Production planning activities have been ongoing since 2019. The first engine for the T-625 multipurpose helicopter will be delivered in 2020 and will make its first flight this year.Of course, the integration of this engine into the Atak helicopter coul be created a delay for Pakistan, but this turboshaft program of TEI is in more forward phase than you think.

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## Trango Towers

LKJ86 said:


> If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.


Far from it. Maybe the turks can come up with a better engine.


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## SD 10

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is a bad decision---should not have been done---.
> 
> Pakistani generals do it to pakistan twice---damage pakistan's integrity---. First by placing the order thru Turkey----knowing very well where the Turkey US and pakistan US relations were headed and now this sabtage again----.
> 
> That puts the program back by 5 years---. The Turkish engine has to go thru the growing pains---.
> 
> Should have cancelled the order and gone with China---.
> 
> But the pakistani Generals and politicians have already spent the kick backs---or bribes as they call---.
> 
> Now they cannot go to china---.
> 
> Nation sold for dollars one more time---.
> 
> 
> .


agreed but a lot of people espacially higher ups are delusional enough to incline towards European and US arms.

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## Pakistani Fighter

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is a bad decision---should not have been done---.
> 
> Pakistani generals do it to pakistan twice---damage pakistan's integrity---. First by placing the order thru Turkey----knowing very well where the Turkey US and pakistan US relations were headed and now this sabtage again----.
> 
> That puts the program back by 5 years---. The Turkish engine has to go thru the growing pains---.
> 
> Should have cancelled the order and gone with China---.
> 
> But the pakistani Generals and politicians have already spent the kick backs---or bribes as they call---.
> 
> Now they cannot go to china---.
> 
> Nation sold for dollars one more time---.
> 
> 
> 
> Shot down would be an other definition of boeing.


We did extensive testing of both helos. Found T 129 better

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## Pakhtoon yum

hyperman said:


> I thought the whole point was to diversify the assets, to not be dependent on a single supplier? I think you are selling the Turks short, that is a very good helicopter, and one which can probably be powered by a similar Safran engine or a Ukrainian engine.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> source?


Open fact. She ate 2 lanes of the motor way too. May she rest in hell


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## araz

blain2 said:


> Why move on? Why not give Turks the support they need to get this right? T-129 is a good product. They have their first international contract with Pakistan and Pakistan can afford to wait.
> 
> This is how the eco-system will be built. It won't be easy but in the long run, it is laying the foundation of an independent military-industrial complex in the Muslim world that is free from sanctions and arm twisting by the dominating powers.
> 
> Pakistan goes the extra mile for Turkey, in the future they too will do it for Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Once bitten, twice shy. I think both Pakistan and Turkey can relate to that.


Thank you for a very good post. People need to understand the slight reservations that have arisen in the Pak China relationship. Pakistan has now a few options so will no longer want to be just a buyer which is what the Chinese want to push the PAF/PAA towards. I think in this case the PAA wants a western oriented shatem with an engine which is Non ITAR and therefore not prone to sanctioning. The point about developing an ecosystem with partial build ofownplatofrmis the way to go before getting independence. As Turkeyis itself progressing towards that directionit needs partners and investors so is willing to offer a lot more offsets as compared to the Chinese.
I think the Z10 will eventully make it into PAA but as an off the shelf product.
A

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## dBSPL

araz said:


> Thank you for a very good post. People need to understand the slight reservations that have arisen in the Pak China relationship. Pakistan has now a few options so will no longer want to be just a buyer which is what the Chinese want to push the PAF/PAA towards. I think in this case the PAA wants a western oriented shatem with an engine which is Non ITAR and therefore not prone to sanctioning. The point about developing an ecosystem with partial build ofownplatofrmis the way to go before getting independence. As Turkeyis itself progressing towards that directionit needs partners and investors so is willing to offer a lot more offsets as compared to the Chinese.
> I think the Z10 will eventully make it into PAA but as an off the shelf product.
> A



Sir, you've made a very accurate point. As everyone knows, SSB has no huge laborforce resources or no huge defense budgets like biggest suppliers. And we don't have great subsidy and unlimited technical support like Israel. On the contrary, as you can see, we are exposed to covered or open embargo initiatives in all areas. But SSB's 2010-2030 plannings has focused heavily on design capability acquisition, subsystems/microsystems and even materials/metalurgy and manufacturing technologies. There are currently around 700 important defence projects, and 90% of them are not a vehicle or an end-system. Billions of dollars are spent on defence-industrial infrastructure investments every year. The reason for giving this anecdote is to explain how SSB's budget and resources are used at its limits.
Turkey's main aim is to achieve a completely independent position in the supply chain. Therefore, unlike traditional suppliers, developing long-term strategic partnerships with countries with high industrial capacity/potential and strong armies/traditions, bringing theirs defense industry into the our ecosystem will give us a new and independent path.

If we look at TAI, its traditional system integrator from 80s, has focused on design and test capabilities over the past 15 years. In recent years, the first generation of domestic products began to market. The number of platforms it produces now will double in just 10 years. The size of the staff will increase more than twice within 15 years. Nevertheless, the company needs unity(joint forces with common vision) to ensure sustainability in large-scale projects. But, also real change in policies starts from here.

I know that sounds ridiculous to most of PDF members, but Turkish long-term policy makers believes that a third path is possible which is independent from the Eastern bloc, or the western block. Therefore we constantly say that, Turkey's offers of military technologies to other countries are used as a lever for creating long-term strategic alliances not about the money for the moment.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

dBSPL said:


> Sir, you've made a very accurate point. As everyone knows, SSB has no huge laborforce resources or no huge defense budgets like biggest suppliers. But SSB's 2010-2030 plannings has focused heavily on design capability acquisition, subsystems/microsystems and even materials/metalurgy and manufacturing technologies. There are currently around 700 important defence projects, and 95% of them are not a vehicle or an end-system. Billions of dollars are spent on defence-industrial infrastructure investments every year. The reason for giving this anecdote is to explain how SSB's budget and resources are used at its limits.
> Turkey's main aim is to achieve a completely independent position in the supply chain. Therefore, unlike traditional suppliers, developing long-term strategic partnerships with countries with high industrial capacity/potential and strong armies/traditions, bringing theirs defense industry into the our ecosystem will give us a new and independent path.
> 
> If we look at TAI, its traditional system integrator from 80s, has focused on design and test capabilities over the past 15 years. In recent years, the first generation of domestic products began to market. The number of platforms it produces now will double in just 10 years. The size of the staff will increase more than twice within 15 years. Nevertheless, the company needs unity(joint forces with common vision) to ensure sustainability in large-scale projects. But, also real change in policies starts from here.
> 
> I know that sounds ridiculous to most of PDF members, but Turkish long-term policy makers believes that a third path is possible which is independent from the Eastern bloc, or the western block. Therefore we constantly say that, Turkey's offers of military technologies to other countries are used as a lever for creating long-term strategic alliances not about the money for the moment.


Not everyone follows Turkey as rigorously as the Turkish members here, so there's measured skepticism about whether Turkey is working on these projects and, to what extent, it can succeed in short-order. I do my best to follow, but I too am behind 2-3 months from where you guys are at, and most others, have less context.

But it all doesn't matter. Ultimately, it's up to the actual decision makers, and the Pakistani decision makers will have much more information about Turkey's work than any of us forum members here. We can only talk about the TS1400 reports, I imagine the PAA will actually get to see it in person (incl. development of the T629). 

And the PAA also has to measure industrial ideals with bitter current realities; a project in the pipeline isn't going to help the boots on the ground, but Z-10ME will. 

The PAF bought itself time for AZM with JF-17, but the PAA has no such luxury (it might have had if the US released the AH-1Z on CSF/FMF).

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## MastanKhan

hyperman said:


> I thought the whole point was to diversify the assets, to not be dependent on a single supplier? I think you are selling the Turks short, that is a very good helicopter, and one which can probably be powered by a similar Safran engine or a Ukrainian engine.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> source?



You are a 29 years old---don't you read news papers---and if you read them don't you retain any information---.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We did extensive testing of both helos. Found T 129 better



Hi,

So let me ask you this---your little 5 years old girl is dying of pneumonia---the doctor says wait for two months we have a new medication coming---!!!!

Now go tell your wife of your decision to wait---.

Right from day one---this deal was a FAILURE---.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not everyone follows Turkey as rigorously as the Turkish members here, so there's measured skepticism about whether Turkey is working on these projects and, to what extent, it can succeed in short-order. I do my best to follow, but I too am behind 2-3 months from where you guys are at, and most others, have less context.
> 
> But it all doesn't matter. Ultimately, it's up to the actual decision makers, and the Pakistani decision makers will have much more information about Turkey's work than any of us forum members here. We can only talk about the TS1400 reports, I imagine the PAA will actually get to see it in person (incl. development of the T629).
> 
> And the PAA also has to measure industrial ideals with bitter current realities; a project in the pipeline isn't going to help the boots on the ground, but Z-10ME will.
> 
> The PAF bought itself time for AZM with JF-17, but the PAA has no such luxury (it might have had if the US released the AH-1Z on CSF/FMF).


It is precisely the sort of pressures of lack of platforms which the PAF faced led to ingenious solutions like the JFT. Not ground breaking esrth shaking projects but based on reality and with growth potential. At this point in time even if we ordered the Z10 it will take 12 to 18 months to negotiate a price then two to three yrs before the product starts arriving then another 2-4 years till enough familiarity is achieved with the sustem for it to matter. Even on fast track we wont get anywhere within 3-4 years. So essentially for the boots on the ground it is symantics as to whether it is T129 or Z10. They both wont arrive for 5years at least in any meaningful numbers to be a force multiplier. So we might as well wait forthe Turks and get the maximum benefit from this project. I dare say peoplein PA are keeoing a fairly close eye on the project. The benefits can be at multiple levels which is why PAA is waiting patiently for the T129.
My assessment so feel free to disagree.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> It is precisely the sort of pressures of lack of platforms which the PAF faced led to ingenious solutions like the JFT. Not ground breaking esrth shaking projects but based on reality and with growth potential. At this point in time even if we ordered the Z10 it will take 12 to 18 months to negotiate a price then two to three yrs before the product starts arriving then another 2-4 years till enough familiarity is achieved with the sustem for it to matter. Even on fast track we wont get anywhere within 3-4 years. So essentially for the boots on the ground it is symantics as to whether it is T129 or Z10. They both wont arrive for 5years at least in any meaningful numbers to be a force multiplier. So we might as well wait forthe Turks and get the maximum benefit from this project. I dare say peoplein PA are keeoing a fairly close eye on the project. The benefits can be at multiple levels which is why PAA is waiting patiently for the T129.
> My assessment so feel free to disagree.
> A


I agree. In fact, if GHQ truly believes in this 'Hybrid War' narrative it's promoting, then it should have absolutely no problem with waiting for the Turks. We are not fighting an open war for a while, and the GOP/GHQ are so obviously looking to deescalate matters for the time being. For the PAA, it would mean reworking the attack helicopter plans around a new ITAR-free system -- T629 -- that it could build into a large fleet over the long-term.

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## dBSPL

This engine will be delivered to TAI for T625 tests within next months







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217469051108253697

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

dBSPL said:


> This engine will be delivered to TAI for T625 tests within next months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217469051108253697



DAMN This is thickk


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## hussain0216

dBSPL said:


> Sir, you've made a very accurate point. As everyone knows, SSB has no huge laborforce resources or no huge defense budgets like biggest suppliers. And we don't have great subsidy and unlimited technical support like Israel. On the contrary, as you can see, we are exposed to covered or open embargo initiatives in all areas. But SSB's 2010-2030 plannings has focused heavily on design capability acquisition, subsystems/microsystems and even materials/metalurgy and manufacturing technologies. There are currently around 700 important defence projects, and 90% of them are not a vehicle or an end-system. Billions of dollars are spent on defence-industrial infrastructure investments every year. The reason for giving this anecdote is to explain how SSB's budget and resources are used at its limits.
> Turkey's main aim is to achieve a completely independent position in the supply chain. Therefore, unlike traditional suppliers, developing long-term strategic partnerships with countries with high industrial capacity/potential and strong armies/traditions, bringing theirs defense industry into the our ecosystem will give us a new and independent path.
> 
> If we look at TAI, its traditional system integrator from 80s, has focused on design and test capabilities over the past 15 years. In recent years, the first generation of domestic products began to market. The number of platforms it produces now will double in just 10 years. The size of the staff will increase more than twice within 15 years. Nevertheless, the company needs unity(joint forces with common vision) to ensure sustainability in large-scale projects. But, also real change in policies starts from here.
> 
> I know that sounds ridiculous to most of PDF members, but Turkish long-term policy makers believes that a third path is possible which is independent from the Eastern bloc, or the western block. Therefore we constantly say that, Turkey's offers of military technologies to other countries are used as a lever for creating long-term strategic alliances not about the money for the moment.



If only the Muslim world could be more United

From the Arabs to the Iranians to South East Asia we have the numbers and finance to do something special but are hamstrung by our own issues

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## Ahmet Pasha

By far I personally have only seen Pakistanis who still beleive in islamic brotherhood rest are all worshipping either nationalism or sectarianism.


hussain0216 said:


> If only the Muslim world could be more United
> 
> From the Arabs to the Iranians to South East Asia we have the numbers and finance to do something special but are hamstrung by our own issues


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## dBSPL

Ahmet Pasha said:


> By far I personally have only seen Pakistanis who still beleive in islamic brotherhood rest are all worshipping either nationalism or sectarianism.


I believe in secular state order. Can this prevent us from becoming brothers?

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## MastanKhan

hyperman said:


> this is by far the most foolish thing Ive ever read, when someone asks you for a source to a claim you made, you are supposed to provide the proof, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
> 
> so I ask again, do you have a source for *"to that the americans replied---oh---the 200 million dollars was held back for your dear leader Benazir Bhutto---."*



hi
Indeed——kids being fed info on wikipedia that is all they can say

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## Pakistani Fighter

MastanKhan said:


> You are a 29 years old---don't you read news papers---and if you read them don't you retain any information---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> So let me ask you this---your little 5 years old girl is dying of pneumonia---the doctor says wait for two months we have a new medication coming---!!!!
> 
> Now go tell your wife of your decision to wait---.
> 
> Right from day one---this deal was a FAILURE---.


So what was the alternative? AH 1Zs are not coming. Z 10 failed. Eurocopters are expensive. We already have few Mi35Ms. Maybe our army doesnt find them effective

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. In fact, if GHQ truly believes in this 'Hybrid War' narrative it's promoting, then it should have absolutely no problem with waiting for the Turks. We are not fighting an open war for a while, and the GOP/GHQ are so obviously looking to deescalate matters for the time being. For the PAA, it would mean reworking the attack helicopter plans around a new ITAR-free system -- T629 -- that it could build into a large fleet over the long-term.



Hi,

coming from someone like you is a total disappointment.

if an illiterate person would have said that—-that would still be a surprise but from you——it was shocking ( about predicting no war )

i am so very disappointed with myself.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So what was the alternative? AH 1Zs are not coming. Z 10 failed. Eurocopters are expensive. We already have few Mi35Ms. Maybe our army doesnt find them effective



Hi

how did z10 fail. That is a strong term.

it did nit fail, it may have scored a little lower than the Turkish equipment, but it was sanctions free.

pakistan could have worked with china to resolve the issues and the chinese have always complied.

this contract with turkey was set for failure right from day one.

if you may recall Shahbaz Sharif comments asking Imran Khan to NOT dig into deals done with turkey

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## Pakistani Fighter

MastanKhan said:


> pakistan could have worked with china to resolve the issues and the chinese have always complied.


Have heard we are working on Z10ME


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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> By far I personally have only seen Pakistanis who still beleive in islamic brotherhood rest are all worshipping either nationalism or sectarianism.


But that does not make it right does it. Look at Turkey and its efforts to become a part of EU. LOOK AT THE SHEER BIAS that has been shown to the Turks purely on grounds that they were from a different faith. The more these things happen the more the ummah will be drawn together. Even the arabs will be forced into accepting this stark reality in due time. The survival of our deen deends on unity on the basis of faith and we will not succeed and will keep being beaten up till we do unite.
A

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## hyperman

MastanKhan said:


> hi
> Indeed——kids being fed info on wikipedia that is all they can say



So no source then? on the *"to that the americans replied---oh---the 200 million dollars was held back for your dear leader Benazir Bhutto---."* Got it! You just made up random fake outlandish drama, and tried passing it off as some universal fact.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Mi28NE or Ka52

There were whispers of PAA looking Mi28 some time ago.


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So what was the alternative? AH 1Zs are not coming. Z 10 failed. Eurocopters are expensive. We already have few Mi35Ms. Maybe our army doesnt find them effective

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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> By far I personally have only seen Pakistanis who still beleive in islamic brotherhood rest are all worshipping either nationalism or sectarianism.



Hi 

because pakistanis are at a LOSS fir identity.


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## SD 10

Ahmet Pasha said:


> By far I personally have only seen Pakistanis who still beleive in islamic brotherhood rest are all worshipping either nationalism or sectarianism.


Pakis are living in LA LA LAND!!!!


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## Irfan Baloch

dBSPL said:


> This engine will be delivered to TAI for T625 tests within next months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217469051108253697


very promising


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## MastanKhan

hyperman said:


> So no source then? on the *"to that the americans replied---oh---the 200 million dollars was held back for your dear leader Benazir Bhutto---."* Got it! You just made up random fake outlandish drama, and tried passing it off as some universal fact.



Hi

when you find the truth, come and apologize, i will respect you for that.


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## Beast

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So what was the alternative? AH 1Zs are not coming. Z 10 failed. Eurocopters are expensive. We already have few Mi35Ms. Maybe our army doesnt find them effective



https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/11/china-eyes-second-attack-helicopter-opportunity/


The company had earlier dispatched three army aviation Z-10s to Pakistan for testing by the army in 2016. However, the service eventually selected the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 ATAK attack helicopters because the Z-10s reportedly did not meet performance and reliability requirements for austere environments.

AVIC subsidiary Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) then went back to the drawing board with detailed test data accumulated from in-country testing and rolled out the new Z-10ME, which is believed to feature a more powerful 1,200kW engine as well as an extensive active and passive defensive aide suite.

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## alikazmi007

Conflicting reports of PA getting the Zulu's... confusing. Are we ever gonna those helos from Uncle Sam or what?


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## airmarshal

At what stage of development is the Turkish engine?


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## Turan09

airmarshal said:


> At what stage of development is the Turkish engine?


Turkish TS-1500 engine will fly with Turkish Gökbey Helicopter in 2020. 
Serial production / certification will take few more years.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

airmarshal said:


> At what stage of development is the Turkish engine?


The one for Gokbey, a general purpose chopper, will be integrated this year. The one for ATAK will be integrated next year for flight tests.....

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## MastanKhan

Beast said:


> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/11/china-eyes-second-attack-helicopter-opportunity/
> 
> 
> The company had earlier dispatched three army aviation Z-10s to Pakistan for testing by the army in 2016. However, the service eventually selected the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 ATAK attack helicopters because the Z-10s reportedly did not meet performance and reliability requirements for austere environments.
> 
> AVIC subsidiary Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) then went back to the drawing board with detailed test data accumulated from in-country testing and rolled out the new Z-10ME, which is believed to feature a more powerful 1,200kW engine as well as an extensive active and passive defensive aide suite.



Hi,

There is a large chunk of bribe involved in the deal with Turkey---very large---.

Otherwise any deal of that scale with Turkey where the main power source was coming from the US---was full of deceit---.

This is a true case of sabotaging pakistan's defense and offense capabilities---.

Now the question could be asked and should be asked---the GENERAL & the defense minister responsible for signing the deal---were they on India's payroll---.

Because a Pakistani General & defense minister holding his loyalties with pakistan would never have signed this contract with Turkey---.

There is nothing wrong with Turkey---but the situation and timing of the contract shows deceit and fraud at the highest level---.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a large chunk of bribe involved in the deal with Turkey---very large---.
> 
> Otherwise any deal of that scale with Turkey where the main power source was coming from the US---was full of deceit---.
> 
> This is a true case of sabotaging pakistan's defense and offense capabilities---.
> 
> Now the question could be asked and should be asked---the GENERAL & the defense minister responsible for signing the deal---were they on India's payroll---.
> 
> Because a Pakistani General & defense minister holding his loyalties with pakistan would never have signed this contract with Turkey---.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Turkey---but the situation and timing of the contract shows deceit and fraud at the highest level---.


NS & Co were involve in deal remember LNG Abbasi was taking rides?? You got a good point here basically AH1z and T129 deal is on same boat name America.

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## Dazzler

Beast said:


> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/11/china-eyes-second-attack-helicopter-opportunity/
> 
> 
> The company had earlier dispatched three army aviation Z-10s to Pakistan for testing by the army in 2016. However, the service eventually selected the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T129 ATAK attack helicopters because the Z-10s reportedly did not meet performance and reliability requirements for austere environments.
> 
> AVIC subsidiary Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) then went back to the drawing board with detailed test data accumulated from in-country testing and rolled out the new Z-10ME, which is believed to feature a more powerful 1,200kW engine as well as an extensive active and passive defensive aide suite.



Initial testing of ME has commenced in China.

@Hodor









mingle said:


> NS & Co were involve in deal remember LNG Abbasi was taking rides?? You got a good point here basically AH1z and T129 deal is on same boat name America.



There is no conspiracy here.

First ATAKs were supposed to arrive by late 2020 but the Ban on turboshafts delayed it by a year. The indigenous engine was already at advanced testing phase.

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## Zulfiqar

Dazzler said:


> Initial testing of ME has commenced in China.
> 
> @Hodor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no conspiracy here.
> 
> First ATAKs were supposed to arrive by late 2020 but the Ban on turboshafts delayed it by a year. The indigenous engine was already at advanced testing phase.



So are we testing the ME again or are the chinese doing it?

Will PA wait for the ATAK or will the contract lapse after the extension period?

What about ME, will PA also buy it in future if it meets the benchmark set or will we stick with ATAK.

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## Ahmet Pasha

You're being paranoid on this one.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a large chunk of bribe involved in the deal with Turkey---very large---.
> 
> Otherwise any deal of that scale with Turkey where the main power source was coming from the US---was full of deceit---.
> 
> This is a true case of sabotaging pakistan's defense and offense capabilities---.
> 
> Now the question could be asked and should be asked---the GENERAL & the defense minister responsible for signing the deal---were they on India's payroll---.
> 
> Because a Pakistani General & defense minister holding his loyalties with pakistan would never have signed this contract with Turkey---.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Turkey---but the situation and timing of the contract shows deceit and fraud at the highest level---.

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## Pandora

flameboard said:


> I imagine a new engine could take a decade to develop why is there such a high confidence one would be ready shortly?
> 
> 
> Russia would probs be a good source for alternative engine options or entirely different heli with similar specs



US/Russia/China will never sell their engienes mainly bcz they dont want any competition in market. If Turkey could procure Russian engines then they would have done so already.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a large chunk of bribe involved in the deal with Turkey---very large---.
> 
> Otherwise any deal of that scale with Turkey where the main power source was coming from the US---was full of deceit---.
> 
> This is a true case of sabotaging pakistan's defense and offense capabilities---.
> 
> Now the question could be asked and should be asked---the GENERAL & the defense minister responsible for signing the deal---were they on India's payroll---.
> 
> Because a Pakistani General & defense minister holding his loyalties with pakistan would never have signed this contract with Turkey---.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Turkey---but the situation and timing of the contract shows deceit and fraud at the highest level---.


Be a dacoit, but not a fool...

If true, some folks at the least have graduated up to the "dacoit" stage...



Dazzler said:


> Initial testing of ME has commenced in China.
> 
> @Hodor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no conspiracy here.
> 
> First ATAKs were supposed to arrive by late 2020 but the Ban on turboshafts delayed it by a year. The indigenous engine was already at advanced testing phase.


Pak may end up having both!!! @Oscar has already suggested it...

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## Gryphon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a large chunk of bribe involved in the deal with Turkey---very large---.
> 
> Otherwise any deal of that scale with Turkey where the main power source was coming from the US---was full of deceit---.
> 
> This is a true case of sabotaging pakistan's defense and offense capabilities---.
> 
> Now the question could be asked and should be asked---the GENERAL & the defense minister responsible for signing the deal---were they on India's payroll---.
> 
> Because a Pakistani General & defense minister holding his loyalties with pakistan would never have signed this contract with Turkey---.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Turkey---but the situation and timing of the contract shows deceit and fraud at the highest level---.



Mastan shb, corruption allegations aside, the reason this deal hasn't already been cancelled appears to be the US$ 1.565 bn loan secured from Turkey. On the part of US, the PAA convinces itself that DELAYING != REFUSING and still has some hopes left which reflects in the 12-month extension.
It doesn't want the evaluation / testing, contract negotiations and financing process to repeat and consume another 3-4 years while 31 sqn at Multan is slated to have its Cobras retired.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gryphon said:


> Mastan shb, corruption allegations aside, the reason this deal hasn't already been cancelled appears to be the US$ 1.565 bn loan secured from Turkey. On the part of US, the PAA convinces itself that DELAYING != REFUSING and still has some hopes left which reflects in the 12-month extension.
> It doesn't want the evaluation / testing, contract negotiations and financing process to repeat and consume another 3-4 years while 31 sqn at Multan is slated to have its Cobras retired.


Then why we are testing Z 10ME?

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## GriffinsRule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Then why we are testing Z 10ME?


Who said we are...

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Turan09 said:


> Turkish TS-1500 engine will fly with Turkish Gökbey Helicopter in 2020.
> Serial production / certification will take few more years.



What is your source that he will make his first flight with ts1400 in 2020?

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## Turan09

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> What is your source that he will make his first flight with ts1400 in 2020?



Temel Kotil.
http://www.kokpit.aero/temel-kotil-gokbey-yerli-motor

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## Beast

GriffinsRule said:


> Who said we are...


@Dazzler say it....

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## Dazzler

ATAK and Z-10 will both be inducted eventually. 

Just a matter of time.

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## Beast

Dazzler said:


> ATAK and Z-10 will both be inducted eventually.
> 
> Just a matter of time.


https://www.safran-helicopter-engin...loped-aero-engine-be-certified-china-20191010

*Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China*
*10 October 2019, China Helicopter Exposition, Tianjin*

Safran Helicopter Engines and Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) announce the issue of the Type Certificate for the WZ16 turboshaft from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Installed in the AVIC AC352 helicopter, the WZ16 is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities. Also known as the Ardiden 3C, the WZ16 has been jointly developed and built by Safran Helicopter Engines, with Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute (HAPRI), both parts of the AECC consortium. The Ardiden 3C was certified by EASA in April 2018.








Safran


"Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC" commented Bruno Bellanger, Safran Helicopter Engines EVP Programs. "It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service".

Harbin Dongan Engine, the Type Certificate holder said, "The Type Certificate from CAAC is a further step towards the commercial success of the WZ16. It is thanks to the close cooperation of AECC, Harbin Dongan Engine, HAPRI and Safran Helicopter Engines, as well as to the strong support of CAAC. In the future, we will not only expand our engine portfolio but work hand-in-hand with Safran Helicopter Engines, to provide continuous airworthiness and after-sales service of the WZ16, ensuring smooth operation and world-class after-sales service for our clients. Thus, they can buy it confidently and use it safely."







Remy Bertrand - Safran


The WZ16/Ardiden 3C is a new-generation turboshaft in the 1,700-2,000 shp range. The Ardiden 3 family has completed over 10,000 hours of tests, confirming high levels of design maturity and competitive operating and maintenance costs. It features a remarkably compact modular architecture, a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio and low cost-of-ownership. It also delivers at least 10 % better fuel consumption than engines operating in the same power range.

The WZ16 flight test campaign started in December 2016 with the Avic AC352's maiden flight.

*Safran *_is an international high-technology group, operating in the aircraft propulsion and equipment, space and defense markets. Safran has a global presence, with more than 92,000 employees and sales of 21 billion euros in 2018. Safran is listed on the Euronext Paris stock exchange, and is part of the CAC 40 and Euro Stoxx 50 indices._

_*Safran Helicopter Engines* is the world's leading manufacturer of helicopter engines, with more than 72,000 produced since being founded. It offers the widest range of helicopter turboshafts in the world and has more than 2,500 customers in 155 countries.
_
WZ-16 militarised version is used for new Z-10ME which will gives it uprated horsepower and high attitude performance.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Dazzler said:


> ATAK and Z-10 will both be inducted eventually.
> 
> Just a matter of time.


And AH1Zs?
And which ATAK? I or II?


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## Ahmet Pasha

From my understanding
ATAK I has two variants a and b.
ATAK II has been redesignated as T629. This bird aims to be an alternative to the Apache/Mi28 class of helicopter.
Could be wrong. Get some Turk members to help out here.


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> And AH1Zs?
> And which ATAK? I or II?


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Apache/Mi28 class of helicopter


Which class does AH 1Z lie?


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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> You're being paranoid on this one.



Hi,

Ok---I will accept that till shown otherwise---.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> From my understanding
> ATAK I has two variants a and b.
> ATAK II has been redesignated as T629. This bird aims to be an alternative to the Apache/Mi28 class of helicopter.
> Could be wrong. Get some Turk members to help out here.


ATAK I is 5 tons, and comes in two variants, A & B
T629 is 6 tons, a major upgrade of the ATAK I with Turkish engine and other parts.
ATAK 2 is a clean sheet, 10-ton attack helicopter

The T629 is supposed to fly in 2020/2021, which is likely another way of saying 'ATAK with Turkish engine.' But it'll be more than just a re-engined ATAK, more of a redesigned and localized variant.

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## Dazzler

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> And AH1Zs?
> And which ATAK? I or II?



PAA is clever, it is getting more bang for the buck with both systems. ATAK II will be considered once it enters service, but PAA improvements have already been incorporated. 







Same goes with ME, which means that they are keen on both. 






As for Zulus, they are not coming any time soon.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dazzler said:


> PAA is clever, it is getting more bang for the buck with both systems. ATAK II will be considered once it enters service, but PAA improvements have already been incorporated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same goes with ME, which means that they are keen on both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Zulus, they are not coming any time soon.


I suspect the T129 was sought for endurance and high-altitude ops, so it might specialize in our mountainous regions. But the Z-10ME could be good enough for the plains and deserts as a CAS asset for our armour, and leveraging Chinese economies-of-scale, should come at a lower cost (i.e., more numbers).

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ATAK I is 5 tons, and comes in two variants, A & B
> T629 is 6 tons, a major upgrade of the ATAK I with Turkish engine and other parts.
> ATAK 2 is a clean sheet, 10-ton attack helicopter
> 
> The T629 is supposed to fly in 2020/2021, which is likely another way of saying 'ATAK with Turkish engine.' But it'll be more than just a re-engined ATAK, more of a redesigned and localized variant.



T12(9)
T(62)5 > T629 

Big mistake The T629 will be the armed version of the T625 and will replace the old UH-1's in the army.

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## xbat

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> T12(9)
> T(62)5 > T629
> 
> Big mistake The T629 will be the armed version of the T625 and will replace the old UH-1's in the army.


Does this heli look like a utility chopper for you?
T629





i wish they had larger wing to fit 16 Umtas, a place for MMW Radar on top of rotor.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ATAK I is 5 tons, and comes in two variants, A & B
> T629 is 6 tons, a major upgrade of the ATAK I with Turkish engine and other parts.
> ATAK 2 is a clean sheet, 10-ton attack helicopter
> 
> The T629 is supposed to fly in 2020/2021, which is likely another way of saying 'ATAK with Turkish engine.' But it'll be more than just a re-engined ATAK, more of a redesigned and localized variant.



Yeah the ATAK was program was so much clearer in my mind until TAI yhrew in the T629. So will the heavy ATAK be able to hold it's own in the Apache, Mi28, Eurocopter Tiger class of attack helos since India is getting Apaches?


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## Haris Ali2140

What if PAA is looking for side benefits like TOT, maintenance facility of T-129s not only for PAA ones but also from nearby countries if their is a sale and also for future JVs???

@Quwa @Dazzler @Ahmet Pasha@araz @ziaulislam

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

xbat said:


> Does this heli look like a utility chopper for you?
> T629
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i wish they had larger wing to fit 16 Umtas, a place for MMW Radar on top of rotor.



This graphical photo does not belong to the T629. Atak 2 graphic. I recommend that you be informed before commenting.


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## Ahmet Pasha

That is exactly what I've been saying. If TAI and PAC really start working together then that will be a huge success in long term. Giving us the foundation to pursue our own AZM kind of project in helo industry. A complete family of helos. 


Haris Ali2140 said:


> What if PAA is looking for side benefits like TOT, maintenance facility of T-129s not only for PAA ones but also from nearby countries if their is a sale and also for future JVs???
> 
> @Quwa @Dazzler @Ahmet Pasha

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## xbat

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> This graphical photo does not belong to the T629. Atak 2 graphic. I recommend that you be informed before commenting.


may be you should read some ...start from
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/t-129-atak-turkish-attack-helicopter-programs.209736/page-211
https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...rdindan-t629-taarruz-helikopteri-geliyor-3649


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

xbat said:


> may be you should read some ...start from
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/t-129-atak-turkish-attack-helicopter-programs.209736/page-211
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...rdindan-t629-taarruz-helikopteri-geliyor-3649



I've just made a assumption as to whether the T-629 is a direct attack helicopter like T-129, but you can tell me the helicopter in the chart you're send as an example, "Does this heli look like a utility chopper for you?" You said. Do you have a source that the graphical photo you took is T-629, not an Atak 2?


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## xbat

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I've just made a assumption as to whether the T-629 is a direct attack helicopter like T-129, but you can tell me the helicopter in the chart you're send as an example, "Does this heli look like a utility chopper for you?" You said. Do you have a source that the graphical photo you took is T-629, not an Atak 2?


yo can compare both CGI s of those helicopters, heavy class heli is pretty much different than this one. and one more thing, TSK doesnt like the concept which is derived from a utility heli to attack.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

[QUOTE = "xbat, post: 12027468, üye: 191680"] belki biraz okumalısınız ... başlangıç
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/t-129-atak-turkish-attack-helicopter-programs.209736/page-211
https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...rdindan-t629-taarruz-helikopteri-geliyor-3649 [/ QUOTE]














I guess I'm blind and I can't tell the difference. In addition, all the media elements of this photo Atak 2 They al shared because they are "idiot" like me. Could you please let me know?

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## HAIDER

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect the T129 was sought for endurance and high-altitude ops, so it might specialize in our mountainous regions. But the Z-10ME could be good enough for the plains and deserts as a CAS asset for our armour, and leveraging Chinese economies-of-scale, should come at a lower cost (i.e., more numbers).


Pakistan has two war region. High heat plain fields and mountain and cold region mountain top ( Siachin region). T129 was selected for Afghan border and LOC region. T129 pass high heat and cold test at required altitude .

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## xbat

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> [QUOTE = "xbat, post: 12027468, üye: 191680"] belki biraz okumalısınız ... başlangıç
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/t-129-atak-turkish-attack-helicopter-programs.209736/page-211
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...rdindan-t629-taarruz-helikopteri-geliyor-3649 [/ QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'm blind and I can't tell the difference. In addition, all the media elements of this photo Atak 2 They al shared because they are "idiot" like me. Could you please let me know?



i dont know in my eyes there are many differences, look at the gun, air inlet , body shape wider and different curves , flir, landing gears etc.





heavy class is this

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

xbat said:


> i dont know in my eyes there are many differences, look at the gun, air inlet , body shape wider and different curves , flir, landing gears etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> heavy class is this



Among them, I see nothing except the color, optional payload areas and the engine air filter. Moreover, all external sources have described this as Atak 2. I am in favor of the Turkish members of the this forum to make good use of resources.

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## cabatli_53

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Among them, I see nothing except the color, optional payload areas and the engine air filter. Moreover, all external sources have described this as Atak 2. I am in favor of the Turkish members of the this forum to make good use of resources.




This image was shared into TAI webpage when The new attack helicopter project was introduced with 6t MTOW with 20mm gatling gun. Later, the project has evolved into heavy class league(10+t) and gun renewed with 30mm single barrel and design is revised accordingly but the image/article shared in TAI page remained same(Only tittle changed). You can already read “Atak-2 rotor and transmission will be based on T-625 utility helicopter” like informations in same page which is remained same from the time when the project was envisaged to be 6t so I believe T-629 will be more or less something like this one.

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## cabatli_53

Great Janjua said:


> The Turks are offering us joint production off their upcoming heavy attack helicopter and transport helicopter much better than the Chinese option



The 10+t helicopter programs Pakistan is invited will be not only a troop transport but also naval anti-submarine warfare(ASW), anti-surface warfare(ASuW), Search and Rescue (SAR), Naval gun fire suppost(NGFS), Surveillance, Communication relay helicopters. To perform their missions, Further varianta of 10+t helicopter will be equipped with Temren anti-ship missiles, light weight Orka torpedo, Aselsan sonobuoys, multi-mode radar with SAR/ISAR capability and Aselsan/Meteksan low frequency dipping sonar systems. This helicopter will be stationed on TCG Anadolu LHD ships. I think It will be perfect platform which suits the naval mission profile of Pakistani Navy.






6t utility helicopter, T-625, third prototype revealed and I suppose She will start flying with indigenous turboshaft engine in this year. T-625 utility helicopter is another program Pakistan is officially invited to become main partner.

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## Path-Finder

maybe a tiltrotor program can be initiated.

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## cabatli_53

The source of confusion between helicopter programs are about deficient expressions and change of requirements in design phase. In 2017, The new attack helicopter project “Big brother of T-129” was firstly named as Atak-2. The Temel Kotil had openly stated Atak-2 would use same engine and transmission with T-625 utility helicopter but have a MTOW around 6t. Later, Army has described new requirements based on changing criterias and The concept of Heavy class attack helicopter project has been created. It was firstly stated that It would be a 8t attack helicopter, later The take off weight has been increased to 10+t. After that, The name confusion will be solved with calling 6t program with a name of T-629, while Heavy class receive old Atak-2 name.

From an old image while the T-629 were being called with Atak-2 name. Attention ! Both T-625 and “Atak-2” (6t) uses same engine and transmission but In fact, Current Atak-2 (Heavy class) will use same engine (3000shp) and transmission with 10t utility helicopter.





That is the 6t attack helicopter called T-629.






That is the heavy class attack helicopter

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## Great Janjua

cabatli_53 said:


> The 10+t helicopter programs Pakistan is invited will be not only a troop transport but also naval anti-submarine warfare(ASW), anti-surface warfare(ASuW), Search and Rescue (SAR), Naval gun fire suppost(NGFS), Surveillance, Communication relay helicopters. To perform their missions, Further varianta of 10+t helicopter will be equipped with Temren anti-ship missiles, light weight Orka torpedo, Aselsan sonobuoys, multi-mode radar with SAR/ISAR capability and Aselsan/Meteksan low frequency dipping sonar systems. This helicopter will be stationed on TCG Anadolu LHD ships. I think It will be perfect platform which suits the naval mission profile of Pakistani Navy.
> 
> View attachment 600374
> 
> 
> 6t utility helicopter, T-625, third prototype revealed and I suppose She will start flying with indigenous turboshaft engine in this year. T-625 utility helicopter is another program Pakistan is officially invited to become main partner.
> 
> View attachment 600373


The 10 ton helicopter will likely inshallah replace our Russian transport helicopters

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## khanasifm

Great Janjua said:


> The 10 ton helicopter will likely inshallah replace our Russian transport helicopters



Mi-171 is 12/13 ton class heli vs uh-60 which is 10/11 ton class not Much different but mi-171 troops transport capacity is higher 20-30 vs 10-15 for uh-60

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## dBSPL

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I've just made a assumption as to whether the T-629 is a direct attack helicopter like T-129, but you can tell me the helicopter in the chart you're send as an example, "Does this heli look like a utility chopper for you?" You said. Do you have a source that the graphical photo you took is T-629, not an Atak 2?


https://www.aydinlik.com.tr/tusas-t...elikopteri-t629-bilim-ve-teknoloji-kasim-2019


*1st airframe LHTEC engine 5t Mtow*
T-129A EDH (in active inventory from 2014 and upgraded to B1 level)
T-129B ( in active inventory from 2016
T-129B2 (phase II ) (2020 expected for active service)
*2nd airframe TEI engine 6t Mtow*
T-629 (2020 expected for first flight)
*3rd airframe +10t Mtow*
ATAK-II (2024 expected for first flight)

All programs with these model numbers are attack helicopters

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## Path-Finder

need a Jf-17 approach to helicopter project.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> need a Jf-17 approach to helicopter project.


Strictly speaking, the "JF-17 approach" would be signing onto the T625 and T629. It's the same 6-ton platform for both utility and an attack helicopter (for which we got an official invite into the utility side). Compared to the 10-ton program (ATAK-2), it would be more affordable, and the utility platform could be inducted more widely in military and civilian applications (including civilian users).

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## mudas777

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Strictly speaking, the "JF-17 approach" would be signing onto the T625 and T629. It's the same 6-ton platform for both utility and an attack helicopter (for which we got an official invite into the utility side). Compared to the 10-ton program (ATAK-2), it would be more affordable, and the utility platform could be inducted more widely in military and civilian applications (including civilian users).



We ought to make a start in the helicopter field and how long we are going to wait to do so. Our approach to defence procurements/production have been shambolic to say the least at times. One of the largest army in the world can't even produces their own modern assault guns. One can slat me as much as you like but facts speak for themselves and give me the reasons of economy performing badly. If we can't make our own then what we are expecting to equip our forces with depend on others and take dictation from them. One produces their own equipment and sell to others and it balances out the cost factors. We really ought to raise the flag of made in Pakistan first otherwise what ever we buys from others minimum 20 to 40% should be made in Pakistan on TOT basis and there should be no compromise on this approach. We bitten few times by the US F 16 saga and someone made the right decision to make our own plane and that gave us the JF 17 and look where are we now, hence same is required in the helicopter field. Time and world is not waiting for us and the leaders we select are always going to let us down and fill there coffers abroad and I don't see things changing on that front and circular debt always is circling around our necks as we refuse to do any thing and produce basically as minimal as possible even when we are pushed.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yeah when I first started advocating for this all the typical Pakistani PDFers were like ohh we don't have "requirement"...ooh we don't have resources...oh we are not gora...only gora can sell us multi million dollar machines and make money off of us. 

Seriously our tri services combined have hundreds of helicopter of different makes and models. PN is flying SeaKings, PAF Mi17s, AW139s and PAA don't even get me started Pumas, Cougars, Mi17s etc. Moreover all 3 still stuck with Alouettes and Lamas of days gone upto some extent but being slowly phased out.

Militaries far less smaller than ours are making same class of helos and selling them in both civ-mil roles and making money.

But good things are happening in Turk helo industry and very rapidly so. If PAC wants their defensive capabilities and their profits to soar they should sign up with TAI. There onwards set up our own helo industry and become the pioneer.


Path-Finder said:


> need a Jf-17 approach to helicopter project.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Strictly speaking, the "JF-17 approach" would be signing onto the T625 and T629. It's the same 6-ton platform for both utility and an attack helicopter (for which we got an official invite into the utility side). Compared to the 10-ton program (ATAK-2), it would be more affordable, and the utility platform could be inducted more widely in military and civilian applications (including civilian users).



@cabatli_53 few days ago came across AW/Leonardo testing out a tilt rotor prototype knowing that Italians/AW/Leonardo work closely with TAI. Is there a chance of us potentially seeing a Turk medium or heavy lift titlrotor??

Check out the thread I posted.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/tilt-rotors-and-their-potential-for-pakmil.650102/#post-12027957

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

mudas777 said:


> We ought to make a start in the helicopter field and how long we are going to wait to do so. Our approach to defence procurements/production have been shambolic to say the least at times. One of the largest army in the world can't even produces their own modern assault guns. One can slat me as much as you like but facts speak for themselves and give me the reasons of economy performing badly. If we can't make our own then what we are expecting to equip our forces with depend on others and take dictation from them. One produces their own equipment and sell to others and it balances out the cost factors. We really ought to raise the flag of made in Pakistan first otherwise what ever we buys from others minimum 20 to 40% should be made in Pakistan on TOT basis and there should be no compromise on this approach. We bitten few times by the US F 16 saga and someone made the right decision to make our own plane and that gave us the JF 17 and look where are we now, hence same is required in the helicopter field. Time and world is not waiting for us and the leaders we select are always going to let us down and fill there coffers abroad and I don't see things changing on that front and circular debt always is circling around our necks as we refuse to do any thing and produce basically as minimal as possible even when we are pushed.




Do u have money for this ideas, have any idea how expensive TOT works are?


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## Ahmet Pasha

We successfully started a fighter program through a JV even when we had nothing and were under sanctions. Where there is a will there is a way.


RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Do u have money for this ideas, have any idea how expensive TOT works are?

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Ahmet Pasha said:


> We successfully started a fighter program through a JV even when we had nothing and were under sanctions. Where there is a will there is a way.



What you say is valid for the Chinese. Western origin products are not very valid in this case.

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## cabatli_53

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah when I first started advocating for this all the typical Pakistani PDFers were like ohh we don't have "requirement"...ooh we don't have resources...oh we are not gora...only gora can sell us multi million dollar machines and make money off of us.
> 
> Seriously our tri services combined have hundreds of helicopter of different makes and models. PN is flying SeaKings, PAF Mi17s, AW139s and PAA don't even get me started Pumas, Cougars, Mi17s etc. Moreover all 3 still stuck with Alouettes and Lamas of days gone upto some extent but being slowly phased out.
> 
> Militaries far less smaller than ours are making same class of helos and selling them in both civ-mil roles and making money.
> 
> But good things are happening in Turk helo industry and very rapidly so. If PAC wants their defensive capabilities and their profits to soar they should sign up with TAI. There onwards set up our own helo industry and become the pioneer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @cabatli_53 few days ago came across AW/Leonardo testing out a tilt rotor prototype knowing that Italians/AW/Leonardo work closely with TAI. Is there a chance of us potentially seeing a Turk medium or heavy lift titlrotor??
> 
> Check out the thread I posted.
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/tilt-rotors-and-their-potential-for-pakmil.650102/#post-12027957



SSB head had openly told that Tiltrotor technology is inside our new targets in conference and the year was in 2016. Until today, I haven’t met any official research or publishment about this technology. Who knows They will maybe reveal some design elements when technology get matured a little more.

http://www.kokpit.aero/milli-tiltrotor-ssm

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## Beast

Ahmet Pasha said:


> We successfully started a fighter program through a JV even when we had nothing and were under sanctions. Where there is a will there is a way.


No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?

The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.

Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.

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## araz

Beast said:


> No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?
> 
> The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.
> 
> Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.


We are slowly building the requisite capacity. There are a lot of steps to become an aviation product maker and PAC has slowly been jumping all the hoops. JFT remains a joint project so as per plans newer blocks were tested in China. However before testing initial flights may well have taken place in PAC as my understanding is that the final assembly of block 3 was on going at PAC. I could be totally wrong so feel free to correct me. There is no loss of face in learning from our Iron brothers as you have helped us take the baby steps in this field.
A

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## Beast

araz said:


> We are slowly building the requisite capacity. There are a lot of steps to become an aviation product maker and PAC has slowly been jumping all the hoops. JFT remains a joint project so as per plans newer blocks were tested in China. However before testing initial flights may well have taken place in PAC as my understanding is that the final assembly of block 3 was on going at PAC. I could be totally wrong so feel free to correct me. There is no loss of face in learning from our Iron brothers as you have helped us take the baby steps in this field.
> A


China are more than happy to try handover everything of JF-17 to Pakistan and we can concentrate on our J-10 , J-31 and J-20 project. But to attain real full capabilities, a huge pool of facilities needed to be invested. For example, wind tunnel. We are not talking about small size ,lower speed one but fighter plane size wind tunnel which can gives good amount of analysis data for jets flying under Mach 2 speed. 

That is the reason why AVIC still need to undertake the design and testing phase of JF-17 as there are no such facilities in Pakistan.

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## python-000

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Do u have money for this ideas, have any idea how expensive TOT works are?


why we (Pakistan Turkey China & Russia) can not joint venture about this issue...


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## Cool_Soldier

Closed Allies need to shake hands together to compete and get out of influence posed by few countries


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## ARMalik

Beast said:


> No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?
> 
> The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.
> 
> Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.



Yea as if you Chinese figured out all the Western tech yourselves by day dreaming. Only a couple of decades ago You people didn't even know the basic stuff, like what Military Cataloging and Stocking Systems were, which Pakistan taught you, and here you are talking as if you know it all.

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## Dazzler

Beast said:


> No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?
> 
> The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.
> 
> Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.



You have your own delusions mate. Carry on with it.

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## Beast

Dazzler said:


> You have your own delusions mate. Carry on with it.


Really? Maybe you can provide some facts.

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## Dazzler

Beast said:


> Really? Maybe you can provide some facts.



Yeah sure, for starters, go figure who wrote the software and helped design the first HUD unit of hardware of the F-7M airguard. Chinese couldnt back in the day.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Beast said:


> No offense for Pakistanis but u really believe until now Pakistan has master most of the design scratch up, testing to manufacturing of modern fighter jets?
> 
> The latest block 3 is still design and tested in Chengdu, manufacturing of it is still in AVIC, test pilot is still a Chinese, design and project manager , again is still Chinese.
> 
> Not to fault Pakistanis. A true self sufficient industrial for a total aviation is expensive and time consuming.


What about Indian jet industry and especially Tejas


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## Ahmet Pasha

American jet industry was jump started by German tech AND German scientists.


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about Indian jet industry and especially Tejas


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## Beast

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about Indian jet industry and especially Tejas


Indian aviation seems to have a more independent design team but whether it is effective anot. That is another topic. 

In terms of testing facilities , they seems to have better but still limited facilities compare to Pakistan. For example their high ,hot attitude testing for their kaveri engine, they still need to send to Russia for such test.


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## khanasifm

But industry sources warn that any successful engine development program would take at least five to 10 years.


https://www.defensenews.com/global/...tends-turkeys-deadline-to-deliver-t129-helos/


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## KapitaanAli

khanasifm said:


> But industry sources warn that any successful engine development program would take at least five to 10 years.
> 
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/global/...tends-turkeys-deadline-to-deliver-t129-helos/


US will provide the engines after sometime.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> But industry sources warn that any successful engine development program would take at least five to 10 years.
> 
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/global/...tends-turkeys-deadline-to-deliver-t129-helos/


Turkey announced the TS1400 in 2017 (and may have actually begun the work before that). The goal is to make it operational by 2025, so around 8 years since project start.

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## imadul

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Turkey announced the TS1400 in 2017 (and may have actually begun the work before that). The goal is to make it operational by 2025, so around 8 years since project start.


It is inconceivable that a future 2025 engine could be fitted into a rotor craft yesterday
Safran Arrano 1A is under contingency plans per Dr. Ismail Demir of SSB which have also mentioned by you.
But T129 ATAK is stuck for Pakistan.
Best to work on alternative engines like safran arrano but its 1100-1300 shp is less that that of 1373 shp of cts800, also a la carte issues of fitting a different engine and the testing. But no option for Pakistan. Pakistan should just ditch sanction prone cts800 and give full go ahead for safran arrano to TAI, Something will come up.

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## xbat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Turkey announced the TS1400 in 2017 (and may have actually begun the work before that). The goal is to make it operational by 2025, so around 8 years since project start.


TS 1400 turboshaft engine development has started in 2013, unofficailly. when the project get matured agreement signed between TEI and SSM in 2017.

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## imadul

Army will have major role during Future war with India and Army Aviation Attack rotor crafts will be mainstay of offensive ops. It is clear USA blocking attack choppers for Pakistan not for usual arm twisting but to give qualitative and numerical advantage to indian armor formations. Vipers wont come and CTS800 will remain blocked for T129's.
Pakistan and Turkey have to find an alternative and quick. PA should also look to acquire at least 12 Mil Mi 28NE to beef up Avn Corps and 12 optional copies.
They will form the heavy attack squadrons and when T129 ATAK will be available after 2-3 years with new turboshaft engine, they can from the light attack helicopter squadrons.

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## nomi007

why Turkish made engine? which was never use before on any plateform.
it is better to go Russian or Ask Turkey to integrate an western engine


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## imadul

nomi007 said:


> why Turkish made engine? which was never use before on any plateform.
> it is better to go Russian or Ask Turkey to integrate an western engine


TEI has developed T700-TEI-701D for their sikorsky T70 Black hawks, it was a JV between TEI and GE and based upon GE T700. Point is Turkey has made strides in turboshaft engines for copters. 
TS1400 for T129 is under development and will take good 3-5 years? So it's a long shot IMO. Some more knowledgeable members keeping tab on it can clarify.
TEI considering Safran Arrano 1A for Pak T129 but even that will take time for integration, testing and burnout.
Any 3rd party engine from a vendor will take time to integrate.


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## khanasifm

TS 1400 for T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters

The TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine can also be integrated into T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopter with some adaptations to replace LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines for which Turkey has been experiencing difficulties for several years in obtaining an export license from the U.S. Government. In 2015 Turkey had finalized negotiations with Turkmenistan for the sale of 2 T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters however since the U.S. Government did not provide the export license for the LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines this project was not realized. A similar problem is being experienced for the sale of the T129 Mk-Is to Pakistan. Turkey has been waiting for more than a year for the U.S. export license in order to proceed with the Pakistan T129B Mk-I deal. 

The contract for the sale of 30 T129B Mk-I ATAK Light Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters to Pakistan Land Forces was signed on 16 May 2018, yet it has not become effective as of June 2019. Official application to the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the LHTEC CTS800-4A Turboshaft Engine utilized on the helicopter was made, the process was completed with the Foreign Affairs Commission and the request was submitted to the U.S. Department of Defence. The approval process was still underway as of May 2019. Turkish Aerospace previously received the Original License Document from the U.S. Government for the sale/export of the T129B to Pakistan. The Philippine Air Force is another customer for the T129B Mk-I Helicopter. On 18 December 2018, a MoU for Defence Industrial Cooperation between Turkey and the Philippines was signed between the SSB’s Prof. Ismail DEMIR and Philippine Secretary of National Defence Delfin N. LORENZANA at Villamor Air Base in Manila. This MoU will pave the way for cooperation between the two countries in the field of the defence industry and the sale of the Turkish Defence and Aerospace Industry products (including the T129) to the Philippines. The Philippine Air Force will procure 6 (+10 optional) T129 Mk-I Helicopters if the necessary export license for the T129B Mk-I will be received from the U. S. Government.

Even though negative feedback is not expected from the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the CTS800-4A Turboshaft Engine, negotiations with the French Safran Group are being conducted on alternative engine options as a Plan-B. The Safran Helicopter Engine currently has two turboshaft engines which are 1,400 shp class, for twin-engine helicopters in its product portfolio and the company plans to get EASA certification for both of them in 2019. The Ardiden 1H1/Shakti, which powers the twin-engine Dhruv and LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) from India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is designed to produce 1,430 shp. With a power range of 1,100 shp to 1,400 shp the Arrano 1A Turboshaft Engine was selected by Airbus Helicopters in early 2015, as sole engine for its new twin-engine helicopter H160, in part, on its ability to deliver extra power when operating in hot-and-high conditions. The Arrano 1A has a dry weight of over 300 kg and features a two-stage Centrifugal Compressor, Reverse-Flow Combustion Chamber, Variable Inlet Guided Vanes, 4th Generation FADEC and a 3D-Printed Fuel Injector. According to Safran Helicopter Engines, depending on the mission, the Arrano 1A Engine can fly almost 5,000 hours before needing a general overhaul (Depot Level Maintenance). Since its first ground test in February 2014, more than 10 test engines have been running at Bordes (France) to demonstrate engine performance. The Arrano-powered H160 (PT2 prototype) made its first flight on 27 January 2016. As of February 2019, the Arrano 1A Engines accumulated more than 7,000 test hours, including 1,100 hours in flight.

Previously, within the scope of the tender that was launched by the SSB in 2014 to meet the engine requirement of the TLUH (both civil and military versions) prototypes, Turbomeca (now Safran Helicopter Engines) competed with LHTEC and had proposed the Arrano Engine. At that time the company had underlined that it was designed for both civil and military rotorcraft and that the Arrano Engine was 100 % ITAR Free and would be civil certified. At that time civil certification (EASA) for the Arrano Engine was planned to be obtained in 2017. Yet, the winner of the tender, which was finalized in April 2015, was LHTEC with their CTS800-4AT Engine.

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## khanasifm

https://www.safran-helicopter-engines.com/video/2295


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## nomi007

imadul said:


> TEI has developed T700-TEI-701D for their sikorsky T70 Black hawks, it was a JV between TEI and GE and based upon GE T700. Point is Turkey has made strides in turboshaft engines for copters.
> TS1400 for T129 is under development and will take good 3-5 years? So it's a long shot IMO. Some more knowledgeable members keeping tab on it can clarify.
> TEI considering Safran Arrano 1A for Pak T129 but even that will take time for integration, testing and burnout.
> Any 3rd party engine from a vendor will take time to integrate.


than directly block the Nato supply


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## Pakistani Fighter

imadul said:


> PA should also look to acquire at least 12 Mil Mi 28NE to beef up Avn Corps and 12 optional copies.


I think we were looking for Mi28NE


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## Invictus.inc

Why are we even discussing Turkish T129 engine problems?
We paid to get actual mission ready machines and see them flying in our colors by now
Instead what we go is millions of dollars of worth of possibilities
We'll develop this
We'll develop that
If they can't deliver the product on the said date scrap the deal and go for Chinese attack helos

Our Pilots are flying 50 years old machines
Risking their lives everyday & those on the ground 
The operational readiness of the fleet is low
And we're discussing if the Turks have an actual engine for the damn chopper or not

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## SD 10

Invictus.inc said:


> Why are we even discussing Turkish T129 engine problems?
> We paid to get actual mission ready machines and see them flying in our colors by now
> Instead what we go is millions of dollars of worth of possibilities
> We'll develop this
> We'll develop that
> If they can't deliver the product on the said date scrap the deal and go for Chinese attack helos
> 
> Our Pilots are flying 50 years old machines
> Risking their lives everyday & those on the ground
> The operational readiness of the fleet is low
> And we're discussing if the Turks have an actual engine for the damn chopper or not


exactly!

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## GriffinsRule

No one is stopping PA from buying some other chopper. And they haven't paid anything yet

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## fitpOsitive

Invictus.inc said:


> Why are we even discussing Turkish T129 engine problems?
> We paid to get actual mission ready machines and see them flying in our colors by now
> Instead what we go is millions of dollars of worth of possibilities
> We'll develop this
> We'll develop that
> If they can't deliver the product on the said date scrap the deal and go for Chinese attack helos
> 
> Our Pilots are flying 50 years old machines
> Risking their lives everyday & those on the ground
> The operational readiness of the fleet is low
> And we're discussing if the Turks have an actual engine for the damn chopper or not


Delay is due to USA. If we scrap the deal, USA will win, and Turkey will lose. And that my friend, we will not let happen. So, we are here to support our friends, not our enemies.

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## Invictus.inc

fitpOsitive said:


> Delay is due to USA. If we scrap the deal, USA will win, and Turkey will lose. And that my friend, we will not let happen. So, we are here to support our friends, not our enemies.


Dude it's not about satisfying our egos or winning against anyone
We want actual flying machines to replace are obsolete fleet of AH-1F
By the Time Turkish Helo comes online & Testing & Delivery phase begins it's gonna be well over 3 Years at minimum 
Meanwhile young men continue to climb into Cannibalized Chopper's every day

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## Ansu fati

This is my post in turkish forum i will just copy-paste here
even though it may be canceled definitely a new deal will be signed later that would be actually continuation of the previous deal pakistan just like turkey has very big helicopter demand so i have full confidence that eventually there will be pak-turk collaboration the only loosers of this stupid embargo will be yankees
To say it short it will be a frozen deal until turkish engine reaches serial production in 2024 what’s good for pakistan is that they can have better negotiation leverage since atak 2 would be almost ready so there could be cheaper but extended deal that would include both atak(newest faz 2 edition) and atak 2 heavy version
It’s important to say that when pakistan selected turkish offer they did it because these helos scored highest marks during evaluation
Even more important is that pakistan is also interested for atak 2 plus there will be joint production that will help pakistan to gain necessary experience to start their own helicopter program in the future
Other nations won’t give joint production offer especially not US

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## ARMalik

Meanwhile what if the Chinese come up with improved Z-10 in the next 2-years which meets PA's requirements? In that case, there is no doubt that Pakistan will go with the Chinese option. I am afraid if our Brother Turks don't deal with the engine issue soon, this Atak deal will probably not go forward which will be a real shame.

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## Ansu fati

ARMalik said:


> Meanwhile what if the Chinese come up with improved Z-10 in the next 2-years which meets PA's requirements? In that case, there is no doubt that Pakistan will go with the Chinese option. I am afraid if our Brother Turks don't deal with the engine issue soon, this Atak deal will probably not go forward which will be a real shame.


It doesn’t matter because pakistan has already decided to have different types of helicopters do you think that after getting 30 Atak they will stop buying more I don’t know exact numbers of how much pakistan need new helicopters but i guess the number is over 100 that means there will be room for both chinese and turkish helos


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## Pakistani Fighter

Ansu fati said:


> Other nations won’t give joint production offer especially not US


China for Z10ME?


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## Ansu fati

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> China for Z10ME?


I can’t say for sure about china but turkish-pakistan program was much more than ordinary purchase
If i was pakistan and china was offering joint production i would’ve accepted their offer bedore the turkish one but since they accepted turkish i quess you have the answer you are looking for
But anyway there will be room for china and turkey since pakistan helicopter demand is very big


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## StormBreaker

ARMalik said:


> Meanwhile what if the Chinese come up with improved Z-10 in the next 2-years which meets PA's requirements? In that case, there is no doubt that Pakistan will go with the Chinese option. I am afraid if our Brother Turks don't deal with the engine issue soon, this Atak deal will probably not go forward which will be a real shame.


Isn’t Z-10ME on par with ATAK?


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## ARMalik

StormBreaker said:


> Isn’t Z-10ME on par with ATAK?



Apparently, ATAK performed much better than Z-10 in hot/humid environments and also high altitudes. Z-10ME is an improved version but I don't know if PA did performance tests on it.

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## Ansu fati

StormBreaker said:


> Isn’t Z-10ME on par with ATAK?


Atak faz 2 version is on par with Z-10ME 
However chinese helicopter has lots of air to air missiles that might be clear advantage
but all depends on the radar and related equipment as you know only one air to air missile is enough to shoot down your helicopter

Attack helicopters usually engage in air to ground missions and sometimes as CAS support

Pakistan just like Turkey would use the helicopters for the most time against terrorists

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## fitpOsitive

mdmm said:


> I agree with you all "" we support our friend not enemies"".
> I heard that Turkey is trying to make its own engine or trying to buy from other sources for T-129 copters.Is it true and possible that by the end of 2020, will we get all T-129 Atak copter.
> Please add to my knowledge, how many total fighters helicopters, will Pakistan Army, have by the end of year 2020 including Z-10 etc .Please do not move the fly from nose. Add to my knowledge.



Ok, if we order Chines, till when they will be able to deliver us first Helicopter? Now you will add to my knowledge.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ARMalik said:


> Meanwhile what if the Chinese come up with improved Z-10 in the next 2-years which meets PA's requirements? In that case, there is no doubt that Pakistan will go with the Chinese option. I am afraid if our Brother Turks don't deal with the engine issue soon, this Atak deal will probably not go forward which will be a real shame.


Building indigenous engines for all defense machines - tanks, UAVs, choppers, fighters - is a national objective for Turkey. No stones will remain unturned....

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## Beast

fitpOsitive said:


> Ok, if we order Chines, till when they will be able to deliver us first Helicopter? Now you will add to my knowledge.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ai...s-z-10me-showcased-increased-capabilities?amp

Anytime... Just need PA signature to ink the deal and money paid. It can be delivered even in few months for first helo unless addition modification required.



StormBreaker said:


> Isn’t Z-10ME on par with ATAK?


Do take note, Z-10ME is a 6tons helo vs T-129 which is 3.6tons under the category of light attack helo. The heavy means better armour and protected.

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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-11-13/chinas-z-10me-showcased-increased-capabilities?amp
> 
> Anytime... Just need PA signature to ink the deal and money paid. It can be delivered even in few months for first helo unless addition modification required.
> 
> 
> Do take note, Z-10ME is a 6tons helo vs T-129 which is 3.6tons under the category of light attack helo. The heavy means better armour and protected.


Z-10ME via @Hodor

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## Ra's al Ghul

can someone plz tell, if the deal is cancelled or its postponed ? cant go through all 200 pages.
and just a noob question, if they have engine issue from US, cant they buy from some friendly eruropean countries like, Italy or sweden or Germany etc .


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## Beast

Ra's al Ghul said:


> can someone plz tell, if the deal is cancelled or its postponed ? cant go through all 200 pages.
> and just a noob question, if they have engine issue from US, cant they buy from some friendly eruropean countries like, Italy or sweden or Germany etc .


Of cos not, to you cannot expect to swap an engine and expect it to work safely in short time. It need extensive testing to verify it totally pass all requirement before being accepted. Unless u do not care for the safely of pilot.



LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME via @Hodor
> View attachment 602615
> View attachment 602616


Do take note there are a total of 4 missile rack install which allows a total of 16 heavy ATGM to be install for Z-10ME.

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## Ra's al Ghul

Beast said:


> Of cos not, to you cannot expect to swap an engine and expect it to work safely in short time. It need extensive testing to verify it totally pass all requirement before being accepted. Unless u so not care for the safely of pilot.
> 
> 
> Do take note there are a total of 4 missile rack install which allows a total of 16 heavy ATGM to be install for Z-10ME.



thanks for the reply bro..
i think we should forget this deal and go for the Chinese helos , becoz of the US ..


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## Beast

Ra's al Ghul said:


> thanks for the reply bro..
> i think we should forget this deal and go for the Chinese helos , becoz of the US ..


Never trust US or those military hardware with critical US parts. It's a blessing PAF go for the JF-17.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Ra's al Ghul said:


> thanks for the reply bro..
> i think we should forget this deal and go for the Chinese helos , becoz of the US ..


Hypothetically speaking for "brain storming" purposes!!! Say, you're a junior officer in the Lahore sector during '65 war. Only a couple of battalions could be arranged against the sudden, unexpected and overwhelming Indian attack at the division level with armored and artillery!! You've found that your company commander has lost his leg, and the neighboring one his life!!! What you're gonna do???? Turkey will fight on with whatever she can arrange....

By the by, all aero engine programs are run by a single parent organization. Turbo-props, to be used in all sorts of UAVs, are already being integrated. As for Turbo-shafts, initial results have exceeded the specs of the current engine being used in ATAKs. Within this year it'll be integrated with Gokbey, the utility chopper. The industrial level engineering work is all about linear progression - one correct step after another building up a robust and reliable foundation....

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## Gryphon

Invictus.inc said:


> Why are we even discussing Turkish T129 engine problems?
> We paid to get actual mission ready machines and see them flying in our colors by now
> Instead what we go is millions of dollars of worth of possibilities
> *We'll develop this
> We'll develop that*
> If they can't deliver the product on the said date scrap the deal and go for Chinese attack helos
> 
> Our Pilots are flying 50 years old machines
> Risking their lives everyday & those on the ground
> The operational readiness of the fleet is low
> And we're discussing if the Turks have an actual engine for the damn chopper or not



Tbh, this Turkish mantra of 'we'll develop this and develop that' sucks but you have to understand that an inked contract can't be scrapped overnight.

There are clauses dealing with different possibilities, and the people at PAA believe the US approval may still come. Keep in mind that PAA signed for ATAK with LHTEC CTS800-4A engines and not the under-development Turkish engine.

Turkish officials saying Pak can get indigenous are only saving for other export prospects.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gryphon said:


> Tbh, this Turkish mantra of 'we'll develop this and develop that' sucks but you have to understand that an inked contract can't be scrapped overnight.
> 
> There are clauses dealing with different possibilities, and the people at PAA believe the US approval may still come. Keep in mind that PAA signed for ATAK with LHTEC CTS800-4A engines and not the under-development Turkish engine.
> 
> Turkish officials saying Pak can get indigenous are only saving for other export prospects.


So have we paid?


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## python-000

Beast said:


> Never trust US or those military hardware with critical US parts. It's a blessing PAF go for the JF-17.


what is the status of Z10ME...


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## fatman17

Available


python-000 said:


> what is the status of Z10ME...

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## Bratva

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...-for-delivery-of-turkey-military-helicopters/

*As US blocks deal, Pakistan extends deadline for delivery of Turkey military helicopters

anuary 15, 2020 at 4:04 pm | Published in: Asia & Americas, Europe & Russia, News, Pakistan, Turkey, US




A Turkish military helicopter on 8 September 2019 [Emin Sansar/Anadolu Agency]

January 15, 2020 at 4:04 pm

The Pakistan Army extended the deadline for Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) to deliver the T129 attack helicopter, Anadolu Agency reported.

Since Turkey agreed to purchase the Russian S-400 air defence system leading to heightened tensions with the US which called on Ankara to walk away from the arms deal. Washington also threatened not to sell F-35 fighter jets to Turkey if it continued to receive weapons from Russia.

The political wrangling may jeopardize the $1.5 billion helicopter deal between Turkey and Pakistan with the US said to be blocking the third-party delivery of those engines.

However, President of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB), Dr. Ismail Demir, said last week that both Pakistan and Turkey are working to secure the exports, with Islamabad giving Ankara one year to resolve the problem.

*

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## Kabotar

Lol!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1224740780620673026

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## MastanKhan

Gryphon said:


> Tbh, this Turkish mantra of 'we'll develop this and develop that' sucks but you have to understand that an inked contract can't be scrapped overnight.
> 
> There are clauses dealing with different possibilities, and the people at PAA believe the US approval may still come. Keep in mind that PAA signed for ATAK with LHTEC CTS800-4A engines and not the under-development Turkish engine.
> 
> Turkish officials saying Pak can get indigenous are only saving for other export prospects.



Hi

it can be scrapped very easily. “ dont have parts to complete the helicopter”

cant deliver it.

if pak wants the deal cancelled there would be no issues.

the seller wants to establish gd faith and it would show bad faith to future buyers


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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah the ATAK was program was so much clearer in my mind until TAI yhrew in the T629. So will the heavy ATAK be able to hold it's own in the Apache, Mi28, Eurocopter Tiger class of attack helos since India is getting Apaches?


If a gunship is required for Anti-Tank role, then its probably convenient to deploy an Aviation regiment of UAV/UCAV with every Corps HQ. This Regiment could have two squadrons (Fixed wing and Rotary) of UAVs for recon,surveillance, delivery of ammo/medicines/supplies, communication relays, Electronic Warfare, forward aerial observers for artillery etc. The third squadron can be a UCAV squadron armed with ATGMs to attack enemy armor formations, artillery, Air Defense and Radars, field command centers, ammo and fuel supplies, bridges, bunkers, tunnels etc.

A shot down UAV/UCAV will not cause any friendly human losses of pilots, no issue of POWs. If UAV/UCAV are locally built, they can be replaced easily than the loss of Gunship or aircraft. Enemy may celebrate victory of downing 50 UAV/UCAV, but at the end of the day, loss of UAV/UCAV is more of financial loss, its not a psychological loss of losing personnel to an enemy neither counted as the downing of the gunships/aircrafts for which records are kept and celebrated. No basic liability during the course of war.



xbat said:


> TS 1400 turboshaft engine development has started in 2013, unofficailly. when the project get matured agreement signed between TEI and SSM in 2017.


Any Russian Gunship engine that can help ATAK T-129 reach the heights ? Can Russian engines get evaluated by TAI ? Would new Turkish engine be comparable or better than Russian Engine?

JF-17 uses Russian engines, so does Mi-17 and Mi-35.



ARMalik said:


> Apparently, ATAK performed much better than Z-10 in hot/humid environments and also high altitudes. Z-10ME is an improved version but I don't know if PA did performance tests on it.


IMO high altitude Ops is a major reason for procuring both T-129 and AH-1Z



Ra's al Ghul said:


> thanks for the reply bro..
> i think we should forget this deal and go for the Chinese helos , becoz of the US ..


I think Pakistan knows that Z-10 is available and Chinese will sell if required by PAA since Chinese do make improvements as per Pakistan's requirements, therefore exploring other options since better options are also available.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> I think Pakistan knows that Z-10 is available and Chinese will sell if required by PAA since Chinese do make improvements as per Pakistan's requirements, therefore exploring other options since better options are also available.





Signalian said:


> IMO high altitude Ops is a major reason for procuring both T-129 and AH-1Z


Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for ATAK instead of Z10. China, eversince, has undertaken requisite upgrades in terms of avionics and structural modifications, and Pakistan's other gunship programs are also in trouble. So we never know when plans will change. (again)


Signalian said:


> Any Russian Gunship engine that can help ATAK T-129 reach the heights ? Can Russian engines get evaluated by TAI ? Would new Turkish engine be comparable or better than Russian Engine?


I don't think any turboshaft Russian engine is there which can fit into existing T129.


Signalian said:


> If a gunship is required for Anti-Tank role, then its probably convenient to deploy an Aviation regiment of UAV/UCAV with every Corps HQ. This Regiment could have two squadrons (Fixed wing and Rotary) of UAVs for recon,surveillance, delivery of ammo/medicines/supplies, communication relays, Electronic Warfare, forward aerial observers for artillery etc. The third squadron can be a UCAV squadron armed with ATGMs to attack enemy armor formations, artillery, Air Defense and Radars, field command centers, ammo and fuel supplies, bridges, bunkers, tunnels etc.
> 
> A shot down UAV/UCAV will not cause any friendly human losses of pilots, no issue of POWs. If UAV/UCAV are locally built, they can be replaced easily than the loss of Gunship or aircraft. Enemy may celebrate victory of downing 50 UAV/UCAV, but at the end of the day, loss of UAV/UCAV is more of financial loss, its not a psychological loss of losing personnel to an enemy neither counted as the downing of the gunships/aircrafts for which records are kept and celebrated. No basic liability during the course of war.


UCAV with anti tank weapons will definitely catalyze over all anti armor capabilities of Army but these unmanned systems cannot replace the role of Gunships. Afterall, modern gunships are more flexible in target designation (less likely to suffer from thick EW environment), more robust in flight path (terrain hugging, covering behind obstacles) and carry diverse range of weapons (yes 20mm does count). Moreover, I have observed that during military exercises, PAA Cobras along with scout helicopter excort army armored formation as a measure of enhanced situation awareness and added firepower. Imagine a modern gunship equipped with FLIR and mmW FCR supporting Pakistan's ground formations!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Tipu7 said:


> Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. _In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for them instead of Z10_.


Insha'Allah the Turkish engineers, along with some "friends", working day and night on the Turbo-shaft engines won't disappoint us....

According to the defense analyst Mete Yarar, the closest to the Establishment as far as I have seen, the Turkish indigenous chopper engine is almost there...

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for ATAK instead of Z10. China, eversince, has undertaken requisite upgrades in terms of avionics and structural modifications, and Pakistan's other gunship programs are also in trouble. So we never know when plans will change. (again)
> 
> I don't think any turboshaft Russian engine is there which can fit into existing T129.
> 
> UCAV with anti tank weapons will definitely catalyze over all anti armor capabilities of Army but these unmanned systems cannot replace the role of Gunships. Afterall, modern gunships are more flexible in target designation (less likely to suffer from thick EW environment), more robust in flight path (terrain hugging, covering behind obstacles) and carry diverse range of weapons (yes 20mm does count). Moreover, I have observed that during military exercises, PAA Cobras along with scout helicopter excort army armored formation as a measure of enhanced situation awareness and added firepower. Imagine a modern gunship equipped with FLIR and mmW FCR supporting Pakistan's ground formations!


Why not Denel Rooviak??? Once for all issue solved may cost same amount of money what we gonna pay for T129??


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## xbat

Signalian said:


> Any Russian Gunship engine that can help ATAK T-129 reach the heights ? Can Russian engines get evaluated by TAI ? Would new Turkish engine be comparable or better than Russian Engine?
> 
> JF-17 uses Russian engines, so does Mi-17 and Mi-35.



TAI never considers a Russian engine for ATAK. Russian engine tech can not be comparable with western engines . They are inferior with their efficiency , durability and of course reliability. For example Turkish Gandermerie operates some MI 17 choppers, its engines spread too much IR signature that IR suppressor cant cope with it. so it is an easy target for IR missiles. 

We hope TS1400(1500HP) would be much better than any russian engine. Combustion level about 98% so there would be no smoke unlike russian engines. Engine life is 2500+hrs for now, TEI is expecting 5000 hrs life span in serially production(they apply some other coatings etc.)

but we dont know the serial production date yet. this year TEI will deliver first engines to TAI for Gokbey helicopter. TAI needs some time to evaluate it. best candidate for **** choppers for now is new french engine, they took certificate, if all parties agree with that .

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for ATAK instead of Z10. China, eversince, has undertaken requisite upgrades in terms of avionics and structural modifications, and Pakistan's other gunship programs are also in trouble. So we never know when plans will change. (again)


Z-10 has been in trials, didnt hear anything after that. Pakistan has extended deadline for T-129 delivery, which makes me skeptical that Z-10 will be coming, otherwise the Pakistani interest in finalizing Z-10 for PAA would have seen some sort of news/meetings or paper work.



> I don't think any turboshaft Russian engine is there which can fit into existing T129.


I wanted to see the options out there which Turkish could excercise.



> UCAV with anti tank weapons will definitely catalyze over all anti armor capabilities of Army but these unmanned systems cannot replace the role of Gunships. Afterall, modern gunships are more flexible in target designation (less likely to suffer from thick EW environment), more robust in flight path (terrain hugging, covering behind obstacles) and carry diverse range of weapons (yes 20mm does count). Moreover, I have observed that during military exercises, PAA Cobras along with scout helicopter excort army armored formation as a measure of enhanced situation awareness and added firepower. Imagine a modern gunship equipped with FLIR and mmW FCR supporting Pakistan's ground formations!



I didn't say to replace Gunship with UCAV. I mentioned deployment of a Drone Regiment with Corps HQ, you know why ? Because there are very little chances that Corps HQ will get dedicated Gunship squadron assigned to it. All the Gunships will stay under Aviation Command and assigned as necessary with Field HQs. The Drone Regiment will be a dedicated aerial surveillance and attack asset available to Corps HQ. 

Gunships have a specialized role, they are needed for COIN too, but their burden can be shared by UCAV in Anti-Tank role. Gunships can even be command and control center for other aerial assets. Gunships should be able to control UAV/UCAVs .High EW environment will affect Gunships too, not just Drones. A scout drone can be used instead of a scout heli. That heli can be deputed to transport role. The pods you mentioned are/can be used on drones also.

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## Signalian

xbat said:


> TAI never considers a Russian engine for ATAK. Russian engine tech can not be comparable with western engines . They are inferior with their efficiency , durability and of course reliability. For example Turkish Gandermerie operates some MI 17 choppers, its engines spread too much IR signature that IR suppressor cant cope with it. so it is an easy target for IR missiles.
> 
> We hope TS1400(1500HP) would be much better than any russian engine. Combustion level about 98% so there would be no smoke unlike russian engines. Engine life is 2500+hrs for now, TEI is expecting 5000 hrs life span in serially production(they apply some other coatings etc.)
> 
> but we dont know the serial production date yet. this year TEI will deliver first engines to TAI for Gokbey helicopter. TAI needs some time to evaluate it. best candidate for **** choppers for now is new french engine, they took certificate, if all parties agree with that .


Pakistan does operate Russian engines in rotary and fixed wing. Reputation aside, Russian heli engines have been in industry for a long time. Tusas E I (TEI) is making a turbo shaft for the first time, tested in 2019 and that on a utility helicopter. the requirement for a gunship might be stringent than that of a UH. The French option did not cross my mind, Rooivalk uses French engine.

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> Pakistan does operate Russian engines in rotary and fixed wing. Reputation aside, Russian heli engines have been in industry for a long time. Tusas E I (TEI) is making a turbo shaft for the first time, tested in 2019 and that on a utility helicopter. the requirement for a gunship might be stringent than that of a UH. The French option did not cross my mind, Rooivalk uses French engine.


Why not Rooviak I mean settle this thing once for all


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## Signalian

mingle said:


> Why not Rooviak I mean settle this thing once for all


@Tipu7 do the honors

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> @Tipu7 do the honors


I don't know why people want to push for a helicopter which has seen repeated export failures, has only one squadron operational and that too within South African Air Force, relies on third party sources extensively for acquiring key components and its future aspects regarding integration of modern technologies is known (Though it's Mk2 variant is proposed for export).
We simply cannot afford a joint project for Gunship like we did in case of Thunder. It's beyond our economic capacity for time being. Hence, proven designs have been sorted out by Pakistan.



Signalian said:


> I didn't say to replace Gunship with UCAV. I mentioned deployment of a Drone Regiment with Corps HQ, you know why ? Because there are very little chances that Corps HQ will get dedicated Gunship squadron assigned to it. All the Gunships will stay under Aviation Command and assigned as necessary with Field HQs. The Drone Regiment will be a dedicated aerial surveillance and attack asset available to Corps HQ.


It's an innovative idea and seems plausible. But I guess PAF will not let it happen. After all, fixed wing airborne killing stuff is PAF department and PAF will tend to keep UCAV squadrons within its ranks instead of letting army to raise its own.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> I don't know why people want to push for a helicopter which has seen repeated export failures, has only one squadron operational and that too within South African Air Force, relies on third party sources extensively for acquiring key components and its future aspects regarding integration of modern technologies is known (Though it's Mk2 variant is proposed for export).
> We simply cannot afford a joint project for Gunship like we did in case of Thunder. It's beyond our economic capacity for time being. Hence, proven designs have been sorted out by Pakistan.
> 
> 
> It's an innovative idea and seems plausible. But I guess PAF will not let it happen. After all, fixed wing airborne killing stuff is PAF department and PAF will tend to keep UCAV squadrons within its ranks instead of letting army to raise its own.


In my opinion if T-129 GOD forbid doesn't come than it would be MI-28 vs Z-10 and may be vs KA 52. @Signalian Because MI-28 was offered by Russia way back in IDEAS 2016 along with PANTSIR and TOR and BUK M3 Air Defence System

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> I don't know why people want to push for a helicopter which has seen repeated export failures, has only one squadron operational and that too within South African Air Force, relies on third party sources extensively for acquiring key components and its future aspects regarding integration of modern technologies is known (Though it's Mk2 variant is proposed for export).
> We simply cannot afford a joint project for Gunship like we did in case of Thunder. It's beyond our economic capacity for time being. Hence, proven designs have been sorted out by Pakistan.


I'd say the Rooivalk Mk2 is worth considering.

1. The "export failure" point is a non-factor for us since the goal is to get a platform that works well and isn't subject to sanctions. And when countries not named Pakistan have way more options to explore (esp Apache), an alternative heavyweight attack heli like Rooivalk is redundant. It was borne of a sanctioned country with no other option, and that's the thought process we should have.

2. The Rooivalk Mk2's critical components of issue are its engine, transmission, etc. And they come from France via Airbus Helicopter, and are further based on the proven Makila engine and Puma helicopter.

It isn't exactly like the JF-17 (a design that was on paper until the PAF signed on). The Rooivalk is more of taking a project that exists and works, and reviving it with an upgrade.

It isn't a new development program as the new Mk2 uses the same airframe, engine and dynamic parts (so new R&D there). Rather, it's integrating new subsystems, avionics and weapons, all of which are available COTS (with some Pakistani suppliers too).

The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).

So, there's scope for getting it (e.g. license prod in Pakistan), provided we push for it. I don't know if that idea crossed our leadership's table, but if the thought process stops at "there's only 1 squadron in SA" or "it isn't economical" while pouring $300 m a year on an import (and more if we factor in the CSF/FMF for the AH-1Z), then I doubt it.

It's for situations like this a real equivalent to the Indian CAG to document the selection process and make it available to outside experts is key, for accountability and exploring all options very thoroughly.

@Ahmet Pasha @denel

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).


that means there is no issue.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd say the Rooivalk Mk2 is worth considering.
> 
> 1. The "export failure" point is a non-factor for us since the goal is to get a platform that works well and isn't subject to sanctions. And when countries not named Pakistan have way more options to explore (esp Apache), an alternative heavyweight attack heli like Rooivalk is redundant. It was borne of a sanctioned country with no other option, and that's the thought process we should have.
> 
> 2. The Rooivalk Mk2's critical components of issue are its engine, transmission, etc. And they come from France via Airbus Helicopter, and are further based on the proven Makila engine and Puma helicopter.
> 
> It isn't exactly like the JF-17 (a design that was on paper until the PAF signed on). The Rooivalk is more of taking a project that exists and works, and reviving it with an upgrade.
> 
> It isn't a new development program as the new Mk2 uses the same airframe, engine and dynamic parts (so new R&D there). Rather, it's integrating new subsystems, avionics and weapons, all of which are available COTS (with some Pakistani suppliers too).
> 
> The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).
> 
> So, there's scope for getting it (e.g. license prod in Pakistan), provided we push for it. I don't know if that idea crossed our leadership's table, but if the thought process stops at "there's only 1 squadron in SA" or "it isn't economical" while pouring $300 m a year on an import (and more if we factor in the CSF/FMF for the AH-1Z), then I doubt it.
> 
> It's for situations like this a real equivalent to the Indian CAG to document the selection process and make it available to outside experts is key, for accountability and exploring all options very thoroughly.
> 
> @Ahmet Pasha @denel


I remember old PDF Haris Khan used to be advocate for Rooviak Helis when PAA was looking Ah1z and other options
It's feasible and worth it for PAA rather than stuck with deals got huge delays and arm twisting

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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> In my opinion if T-129 GOD forbid doesn't come than it would be MI-28 vs Z-10 and may be vs KA 52. @Signalian Because MI-28 was offered by Russia way back in IDEAS 2016 along with PANTSIR and TOR and BUK M3 Air Defence System


In Mi-28,- you, me and Tipu7 can also go for a ride - what i mean to say is it has 3 x passenger carrying capability.

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> In Mi-28,- you, me and Tipu7 can also go for a ride - what i mean to say is it has 3 x passenger carrying capability.


MI-28 faced issues in Syria. But Russia is working resolve them.


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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> MI-28 faced issues in Syria. But Russia is working resolve them.


How about Ka52??


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## fatman17

Not offered. 
Too expensive.


mingle said:


> How about Ka52??

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## Pakistani Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> It's an innovative idea and seems plausible. But I guess PAF will not let it happen. After all, fixed wing airborne killing stuff is PAF department and PAF will tend to keep UCAV squadrons within its ranks instead of letting army to raise its own.


Well navy operate drones too by is own


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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> In Mi-28,- you, me and Tipu7 can also go for a ride - what i mean to say is it has 3 x passenger carrying capability.


So who among us is taking a ride in here?








Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).
> 
> So, there's scope for getting it (e.g. license prod in Pakistan), provided we push for it. I don't know if that idea crossed our leadership's table, but if the thought process stops at "there's only 1 squadron in SA" or "it isn't economical" while pouring $300 m a year on an import (and more if we factor in the


I don't think our Military brass thinks that way. Or possibly there are factors which are not in our consideration. Afterall Chinese have pushed their Z10 numerous times and they will not let Pakistan to experiment around when they got their own product ready which is in mass production and is evolving rapidly. Perhaps that's why Rooivalk has not been evaluated even in trials, and area of interest has included only Z10, T129, AH1Z & Mi28. Surprisingly, despite of sharing numerous overlapping attributes, Pakistan-South Africa defense cooperation is very limited. We should have considered their aircraft's upgrades, artillery, MRAPs & even gunships & air defense, but we haven't. Which indicates that may be other reasons which are not in our knowledge.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Well navy operate drones too by is own


Navy don't operate Combat drones armed with Anti-Ship Missiles. 
And Maritime domain is different than that of ground forces.

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## cabatli_53

Signalian said:


> Pakistan does operate Russian engines in rotary and fixed wing. Reputation aside, Russian heli engines have been in industry for a long time. Tusas E I (TEI) is making a turbo shaft for the first time, tested in 2019 and that on a utility helicopter. the requirement for a gunship might be stringent than that of a UH. The French option did not cross my mind, Rooivalk uses French engine.




The process which starts from the engine right through to shutting it off again is known as a cycle, and over the engine’s lifetime there are only a finite number of cycles before something cracks or breaks. The conventional methodology for measuring this lifespan and one that’s used by many engine manufacturers is known as the TAC (Total Accumulated Cycles). One TAC is the equivalent of one cycle of an engine (exactly: one excursion from engine start, passing intermediate power rating and back to engine stop). The average lifespan of the TS1400 is expected to be at least 2,500 cycles, while the target for the service life is 5,000 cycles (TAC). After 2,500 or 5,000 cycles the TS1400 will require a general overhaul.

Source: Defenceturkey

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## python-000

cabatli_53 said:


> The process which starts from the engine right through to shutting it off again is known as a cycle, and over the engine’s lifetime there are only a finite number of cycles before something cracks or breaks. The conventional methodology for measuring this lifespan and one that’s used by many engine manufacturers is known as the TAC (Total Accumulated Cycles). One TAC is the equivalent of one cycle of an engine (exactly: one excursion from engine start, passing intermediate power rating and back to engine stop). The average lifespan of the TS1400 is expected to be at least 2,500 cycles, while the target for the service life is 5,000 cycles (TAC). After 2,500 or 5,000 cycles the TS1400 will require a general overhaul.
> 
> Source: Defenceturkey


salam to my all brothers, my question is we evaluated this we evaluated that but the point is what we get...*Time is too short.*

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## cabatli_53

France
Turbomecca Arriel 1D1: 3600 TAC
Safran M88-4E: 4000 TAC

US
F100PW229:4300 TAC
F110GE129E: 6000 TAC
F35 engine (F135): 9400 TAC

Russia
Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600 oberhaul-1200h full lifespan, later upgraded to 1200 to 3000h.
Al-31F Russian Su-30/35engine: 1000h for overhaul and 3000h for full lifespan.

US is leading in engine tech! If we manage to improce the TAC figures up to 5000h, It will be a super achievement.



python-000 said:


> salam to my all brothers, my question is we evaluated this we evaluated that but the point is what we get...*Time is too short.*



Time is our biggest enemy brother. We are suffering from same condition.

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## python-000

cabatli_53 said:


> France
> Turbomecca Arriel 1D1: 3600 TAC
> Safran M88-4E: 4000 TAC
> 
> US
> F100PW229:4300 TAC
> F110GE129E: 6000 TAC
> F35 engine (F135): 9400 TAC
> 
> Russia
> Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600 oberhaul-1200h full lifespan, later upgraded to 1200 to 3000h.
> Al-31F Russian Su-30/35engine: 1000h for overhaul and 3000h for full lifespan.
> 
> US is leading in engine tech! If we manage to improce the TAC figures up to 5000h, It will be a super achievement.
> 
> 
> 
> Time is our biggest enemy brother. We are suffering from same condition.


Indeed my brother,All things belong to Allah almighty...

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd say the Rooivalk Mk2 is worth considering.
> 
> 1. The "export failure" point is a non-factor for us since the goal is to get a platform that works well and isn't subject to sanctions. And when countries not named Pakistan have way more options to explore (esp Apache), an alternative heavyweight attack heli like Rooivalk is redundant. It was borne of a sanctioned country with no other option, and that's the thought process we should have.
> 
> 2. The Rooivalk Mk2's critical components of issue are its engine, transmission, etc. And they come from France via Airbus Helicopter, and are further based on the proven Makila engine and Puma helicopter.
> 
> It isn't exactly like the JF-17 (a design that was on paper until the PAF signed on). The Rooivalk is more of taking a project that exists and works, and reviving it with an upgrade.
> 
> It isn't a new development program as the new Mk2 uses the same airframe, engine and dynamic parts (so new R&D there). Rather, it's integrating new subsystems, avionics and weapons, all of which are available COTS (with some Pakistani suppliers too).
> 
> The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).
> 
> So, there's scope for getting it (e.g. license prod in Pakistan), provided we push for it. I don't know if that idea crossed our leadership's table, but if the thought process stops at "there's only 1 squadron in SA" or "it isn't economical" while pouring $300 m a year on an import (and more if we factor in the CSF/FMF for the AH-1Z), then I doubt it.
> 
> It's for situations like this a real equivalent to the Indian CAG to document the selection process and make it available to outside experts is key, for accountability and exploring all options very thoroughly.
> 
> @Ahmet Pasha @denel


I concur with this analysis. This is a known quantity and quality; there are core technologies which will be also transferred in multiple areas; it is pretty open source platform with a lot of flexibility built in deliberately.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> So who among us is taking a ride in here?
> View attachment 604097
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think our Military brass thinks that way. Or possibly there are factors which are not in our consideration. Afterall Chinese have pushed their Z10 numerous times and they will not let Pakistan to experiment around when they got their own product ready which is in mass production and is evolving rapidly. Perhaps that's why Rooivalk has not been evaluated even in trials, and area of interest has included only Z10, T129, AH1Z & Mi28. Surprisingly, despite of sharing numerous overlapping attributes, Pakistan-South Africa defense cooperation is very limited. We should have considered their aircraft's upgrades, artillery, MRAPs & even gunships & air defense, but we haven't. Which indicates that may be other reasons which are not in our knowledge.
> 
> 
> Navy don't operate Combat drones armed with Anti-Ship Missiles.
> And Maritime domain is different than that of ground forces.


It's because true defence industry development is only now taking form at the planning stage.

Until now, the 'defence industry's' job was to keep the armed forces moving during war, and to replenish stocks of essentials after the war. HIT, KSEW, PAC, POF, etc all served a specific and defined role in that regard because our spares always limited us to 2-3 weeks of war.

However, only now are we thinking about securing the whole platform on a turnkey basis, and right now it's limited to just PAF (AZM) and to a lesser extent the PN (which wants to own its own designs, but still source inputs abroad -- easier to do in the naval space).

The Army seems to be OK with the options it has available, which is why it isn't pushing for JVs or genuine industrial development.

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## khanasifm

I think Polish engine which is license from France along with another French engine were shortlisted as replacement but I am not sure one year is enough to test it plus not sure French permission is required ??


T129 ATAK which is based on Agusta A129 Mangusta can be equipped with original Rolls-Royce Gem 2-1004D engines which are powering on Agusta A129 Mangusta but this engine is grossly under powered and has limited capabilities at all operational environments; i.e., hot, cold, high-altitude, and maritime. TAI officials believe it may take up to 5 years for the company to complete the delivery of the T129 ATAK to Pakistan due to lack of clearance for an export license for LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines.

According to Turkish officials, France and Poland have emerged as other alternatives vendors who could be approached by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for the supply of engines which can be equipped on T129

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## Viper27

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's because true defence industry development is only now taking form at the planning stage.
> 
> Until now, the 'defence industry's' job was to keep the armed forces moving during war, and to replenish stocks of essentials after the war. HIT, KSEW, PAC, POF, etc all served a specific and defined role in that regard because our spares always limited us to 2-3 weeks of war.
> 
> However, only now are we thinking about securing the whole platform on a turnkey basis, and right now it's limited to just PAF (AZM) and to a lesser extent the PN (which wants to own its own designs, but still source inputs abroad -- easier to do in the naval space).
> 
> The Army seems to be OK with the options it has available, which is why it isn't pushing for JVs or genuine industrial development.



Actually, converting HIT from a state owned factory to a limited liability company through legislation is a major step in that direction.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Viper27 said:


> Actually, converting HIT from a state owned factory to a limited liability company through legislation is a major step in that direction.


Yep, but right now the 'business' element is open to civilian or dual-purpose vehicles, but it could expand for sure.

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## PAR 5

By 2024 Pakistan Army will have inducted the Chinese Z10P a customised attack helicopter designed exclusively for our use with hot-high engine. Turkey ATAK deal will soon only be a historical fact.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, but right now the 'business' element is open to civilian or dual-purpose vehicles, but it could expand for sure.



Say what you may or do what they may. As long as such state organs are run by serving Generals, their ‘business’ culture will not change.

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## Nasr

PAR 5 said:


> By 2024 Pakistan Army will have inducted the Chinese Z10P a customised attack helicopter designed exclusively for our use with hot-high engine. Turkey ATAK deal will soon only be a historical fact.
> 
> 
> 
> Say what you may or do what they may. As long as such state organs are run by serving Generals, their ‘business’ culture will not change.



Oh I really, really hope so! Going the Turkey route for an attack helicopter was tempting to say the least. However, it is fraught with trouble from the get go. Turkey was and forever will be heavily dependent on Europe and America. As such, Pakistan should have not ever selected the Turkish Attack Helicopter.

China has been Pakistan's most trusted and reliable ally. There is so much that Pakistan can accomplish with China, if only they would take the initiative. Be it the J-10Cs fighter-jet, Z-10Es helicopter gunship, Type-052s destroyer or the S-20 submarine. Pakistan has an ally, from it can buy these incredible military hardware, customizable and sanction free. We don't need to become enslaved to American hegemony, as Turkey has found for itself recently. Even being a full NATO member for decades, didn't help it from being battered by American sanctions. And the refusal of Honeywell/Rolls-Royce engine is yet another reward for Turkey, being a NATO member. 

People don't understand, Zionists rule, own and control America, Britain, France, Netherlands, Australia, Canada and Germany. There isn't any reward for being loyal to NATO, or America. You as a country are only useful to them, so long as they have achieved their objectives through you. When you're no longer of use to them, they slit your throat, like they did with Saddam/Iraq, Qaddafi/Libya, Assad/Syria, Mubarak/Egypt and so on!


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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> It's an innovative idea and seems plausible. But I guess PAF will not let it happen. After all, fixed wing airborne killing stuff is PAF department and PAF will tend to keep UCAV squadrons within its ranks instead of letting army to raise its own.


Army doesn't fly any UAVs of its own? Navy uses its own drone, so Navy has moved out of PAF's sphere in one aspect. For recon and surveillance, PAA uses its own aerial assets- helicopters. Shift to UAV is possible for same purpose. 

AH-64E is poised to control UAV/UCAVs in future. The modern gunships that PAA may acquire could be upgraded with same feature, later if not sooner. Unlike India, Pakistani gunships are part of Army not Air Force.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> Army doesn't fly any UAVs of its own? Navy uses its own drone, so Navy has moved out of PAF's sphere in one aspect. For recon and surveillance, PAA uses its own aerial assets- helicopters. Shift to UAV is possible for same purpose.
> 
> AH-64E is poised to control UAV/UCAVs in future. The modern gunships that PAA may acquire could be upgraded with same feature, later if not sooner. Unlike India, Pakistani gunships are part of Army not Air Force.


Army does fly UAVs of its own. But my point was specifically for MALE & HALE UCAVs which will be equipped with heavy ATGM payload for Anti armor missions.
I don't think PAF will let army have such asset in its disposal. Instead PAF will attempt to raise its dedicated air support drone squadrons which will be providing ground support to army units. 

Rest, light UAVs meant for recon purposes can be operated within army, even at section level, to increase its combat capacity.


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## Windjammer



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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 604705



Many are starting to loose hope in this bird and Turkey to get these to us.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

TOPGUN said:


> Many are starting to loose hope in this bird and Turkey to get these to us.


Losing hope is no option...

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## Windjammer

TOPGUN said:


> Many are starting to loose hope in this bird and Turkey to get these to us.







__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## TOPGUN

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Losing hope is no option...



While that maybe so and I firm believer in that as well, realty speaks for its self.



Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/



Windy bro I can not read Urdu but can speak and understand it … care to fill me in bro thanks.

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## imadul

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Insha'Allah the Turkish engineers, along with some "friends", working day and night on the Turbo-shaft engines won't disappoint us....
> 
> According to the defense analyst Mete Yarar, the closest to the Establishment as far as I have seen, the Turkish indigenous chopper engine is almost there...


How is test/procurement of safran arrano 1a going or other COTS option? An off the shelf mature turboshaft is required rather than one which is being developed. 
TEI will succeed and I believe GE is partner with them, but maturing takes time.

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## imadul

Some good news....
Latest, Thanks to Janes
@TOPGUN @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Tipu7 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @LKJ86 @khanasifm @Beast @Bratva 

https://www.janes.com/article/94224...rospace-looks-to-secure-t129-export-approvals

*Singapore Airshow 2020: Turkish Aerospace looks to secure T129 export approvals*
*Jon Grevatt, Singapore* - Jane's Defence Weekly
11 February 2020





TAI is aiming to secure US approval to export its T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter (pictured) to Pakistan. Source: TAI
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is confident that it will soon acquire the necessary approvals from the United States to support the sale of the company's T129 ATAK multirole combat helicopter to Pakistan.

A company spokesperson told _Jane's_ at the Singapore Airshow on 11 February that the required permits could be approved within the next two months given what he said was "increasingly good communication" between the Turkish and US governments.

In July 2018 Turkey confirmed that it had signed an agreement with the government of Pakistan to supply 30 T129 helicopters, which are powered by US-made LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft engines, for the Pakistan Army's aviation corps.

The deal, believed to be worth about USD1.5 billion, was touted by the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSB) as "the largest single export in the history of the Turkish defence industry".

However, after the contract was signed diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey deteriorated following Ankara's decision to procure the S-400 Triumf air-defence system from Russia. The TAI spokesperson said that diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey are now improving and that the delay in supplying the T129 platforms will soon be resolved.

In addition to Pakistan, the TAI spokesperson said that the company is bidding for a requirement for attack helicopters in the Philippines. In 2017 the Philippine Department of National Defense (DND) said it would procure up to 24 attack helicopters for the Philippine Air Force (PAF) before the end of 2022. The procurement is likely to require loans from suppliers.

In November 2018 the DND confirmed to _Jane's_ that a procurement team set up by the PAF had identified the T129 platform to fulfill its attack helicopter capability demands.

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to Jane's unrivalled data and insight, learn more about our subscription options at* janes.com/products

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## خره مينه لګته وي

imadul said:


> In November 2018 the DND confirmed to _Jane's_ that a procurement team set up by the *PAF* had identified the T129 platform to fulfill its attack helicopter capability demands.


PAF (Philippines Air Force) wants 24 T129.

PA (Pakistan Army) wants 30 helis.

I hope the Engine part (US approval in few months) is true but you can never Trust Uncle Sam especially under the Administration of Uncle Trump


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Signalian said:


> Army doesn't fly any UAVs of its own? Navy uses its own drone, so Navy has moved out of PAF's sphere in one aspect. For recon and surveillance, PAA uses its own aerial assets- helicopters. Shift to UAV is possible for same purpose.
> 
> AH-64E is poised to control UAV/UCAVs in future. The modern gunships that PAA may acquire could be upgraded with same feature, later if not sooner. Unlike India, Pakistani gunships are part of Army not Air Force.


PAA does use UAVs. Even arty observation is done through UAVs like Luna etc.

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## Signalian

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> PAA does use UAVs. Even arty observation is done through UAVs like Luna etc.


Yes Boss, use of a UCAV for attack will be a step ahead

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## Armchair

What I would love to see is DJI drones for the Army. Cheap, effective and excellent value for money. There really is no competition when it comes to DJI, they own 80% of the global civil drone market. Check out their low to high end products. I used to be a middle man in the sales of such things but PA should go directly to the manufacturer and make a grand deal.

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## Muhammad Burham




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## imadul

So PA considering replacement options for T129. Chinese ones, Z-10ME. Time running out for TAI to sort it all out.
I am Flabbergasted though after delivering ceasefire in Afghanistan Pak could not get USA to unblock LHTEC T800 and to delivering AH1Z's. Pak Always act like kummi's.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article

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## mingle

What are other option for Pak one Z10ME and??????????? Who match Apachi in tech and capabilities @Quwa @Tipu7 thanks in advance



imadul said:


> So PA considering replacement options for T129. Chinese ones, Z-10ME. Time running out for TAI to sort it all out.
> I am Flabbergasted though after delivering ceasefire in Afghanistan Pak could not get USA to unblock LHTEC T800 and to delivering AH1Z's. Pak Always act like kummi's.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article


Let deal sign first then we will Know real pic but according to Gen AH1z are not match with Apachi then what we looking for?? Russian Mi28 Ka 52 Z10 ME?? Let's see

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> What are other option for Pak one Z10ME and??????????? Who match Apachi in tech and capabilities @Quwa @Tipu7 thanks in advance
> 
> 
> Let deal sign first then we will Know real pic but according to Gen AH1z are not match with Apachi then what we looking for?? Russian Mi28 Ka 52 Z10 ME?? Let's see


I think what the PAA meant by "matching Apache" was having enough attack helicopters available. 

If he meant an actual technology comparison, then the only helicopters that can match Apache are the AH-1Z, Mi-28NE and Rooivalk. These 3 more so for having the baseline specs, they'd still need newer or more modern electronics (incl. AH-1Z, it would need a mmW radar). 

The alternative to "matching the Apache" would be working with China or Turkey on their respective heavy attack helicopter programs.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

imadul said:


> So PA considering replacement options for T129. Chinese ones, Z-10ME. Time running out for TAI to sort it all out.
> I am Flabbergasted though after delivering ceasefire in Afghanistan Pak could not get USA to unblock LHTEC T800 and to delivering AH1Z's. Pak Always act like kummi's.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article


President Trump, like any American CEO, doesn’t believe in free lunches!!! It’s Pak’s job to leverage Afgan peace deal in her own way to get the ROI she feels right.....

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## jupiter2007

imadul said:


> So PA considering replacement options for T129. Chinese ones, Z-10ME. Time running out for TAI to sort it all out.
> I am Flabbergasted though after delivering ceasefire in Afghanistan Pak could not get USA to unblock LHTEC T800 and to delivering AH1Z's. Pak Always act like kummi's.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article



We should always have alternate plan. If things don’t work out with Turkish T-129, we can try Chinese Helicopters in small numbers.


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## imadul

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> President Trump, like any American CEO, doesn’t believe in free lunches!!! It’s Pak’s job to leverage Afgan peace deal in her own way to get the ROI she feels right.....


As far Pakistan and US considered it is US buy one get one free.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think what the PAA meant by "matching Apache" was having enough attack helicopters available.
> 
> If he meant an actual technology comparison, then the only helicopters that can match Apache are the AH-1Z, Mi-28NE and Rooivalk. These 3 more so for having the baseline specs, they'd still need newer or more modern electronics (incl. AH-1Z, it would need a mmW radar).
> 
> The alternative to "matching the Apache" would be working with China or Turkey on their respective heavy attack helicopter programs.


Need is now. India will impose a limited war sooner than later. 28NE, KA52 will be good choice. Even 15 of either of them will give some punch.


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## Signalian

imadul said:


> Need is now. India will impose a limited war sooner than later. 28NE, KA52 will be good choice. Even 15 of either of them will give some punch.


Doubtful that PAA will go for Mi-28 or KA-52 after inducting Mi-35M which offers somewhat similar capabilities such as night attack capable. There is MmW radar missing though and probably FLIR, which im guessing can be installed if necessary.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

imadul said:


> As far Pakistan and US considered it is US buy one get one free.
> 
> 
> Need is now. India will impose a limited war sooner than later. 28NE, KA52 will be good choice. Even 15 of either of them will give some punch.


The "now" solution is the Z-10ME (unless the US suddenly clears the LHTEC CTS800).

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## imadul

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The "now" solution is the Z-10ME (unless the US suddenly clears the LHTEC CTS800).


Well then Z-10ME negotiations must have started as Pakistan giving TAI July 2020 deadline. 
A western combat helicopter with potential *indigenization would be a *good option for Pakistan but US under India pressure doing everything to stall capable attack helis for Pakistan. AH-64E are a big threat against Pak armor formations and Pakistan need very capable attack helis against over 2000 indian T90's/T90M.

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## Cornered Tiger

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> President Trump, like any American CEO, doesn’t believe in free lunches!!! It’s Pak’s job to leverage Afgan peace deal in her own way to get the ROI she feels right.....



Not a right thread to say this but just 2 sentences.

Our foremost priority is PEACE and TRADE with Central Asian States, will ease heck of a burden on western borders. 
America is trusting us this time around because we have not any strings attached.

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## Beast

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The "now" solution is the Z-10ME (unless the US suddenly clears the LHTEC CTS800).


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/u-s-...-iran-missile-programme.654852/#post-12112817

Chances are very slim.


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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> There is MmW radar missing though and *probably FLIR*, which im guessing can be installed if necessary.


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## Salza

Signalian said:


> Doubtful that PAA will go for Mi-28 or KA-52 after inducting Mi-35M which offers somewhat similar capabilities such as night attack capable. There is MmW radar missing though and probably FLIR, which im guessing can be installed if necessary.



Do China has anything equivalent to Mmw radar ¡¿


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## Tipu7

mingle said:


> What are other option for Pak one Z10ME and??????????? Who match Apachi in tech and capabilities @Quwa @Tipu7 thanks in advance


Once Pakistan and Turkey have discussed on option of AH1W Super Cobras upgraded with TAI/Aselsan. It was meant to act as stop gap measure. But again, it was American Dependent approach and didn't go through.

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## StormBreaker

Tipu7 said:


> Once Pakistan and Turkey have discussed on option of AH1W Super Cobras upgraded with TAI/Aselsan. It was meant to act as stop gap measure. But again, it was American Dependent approach and didn't go through.


Is Turkey capable of producing decent ASW (Subs) systems ?


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## Sulemanms202

Hinds are only here to support light infantry groups in Balochistan to counter insurgency and since this does not invovle fighting against mechanized armoured cars so radars are not needed, thus doing the job at optimum cost.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> Once Pakistan and Turkey have discussed on option of AH1W Super Cobras upgraded with TAI/Aselsan. It was meant to act as stop gap measure. But again, it was American Dependent approach and didn't go through.


Even with Z-10ME, the heavyweight requirement will remain. This might lead to joining the ATAK 2 or AW249, unless the US subsidizes the AH-1Z.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Even with Z-10ME, the heavyweight requirement will remain. This might lead to joining the ATAK 2 or AW249, unless the US subsidizes the AH-1Z.


MI 28 is being offered by Russia in my opinion it should be considered @Tipu7


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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> MI 28 is being offered by Russia in my opinion it should be considered @Tipu7


No. We have refused Mi28. 


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Even with Z-10ME, the heavyweight requirement will remain. This might lead to joining the ATAK 2 or AW249, unless the US subsidizes the AH-1Z.


I guess the picture will be clear after July when fate of T129 will finalize.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Even with Z-10ME, the heavyweight requirement will remain. This might lead to joining the ATAK 2 or AW249, unless the US subsidizes the AH-1Z.


Aw249 looks promising PAA can invest in both of two turkish and Italian. What U think if PAA opted Aw249 when we will get first copy?? I mean along Z10ME it's look promising.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Aw249 looks promising PAA can invest in both of two turkish and Italian. What U think if PAA opted Aw249 when we will get first copy?? I mean along Z10ME it's look promising.


Compared to the PAF and PN, the Pakistan Army generally always has available options, if not from the West, then certainly from China. Moreover, the Army seems to keep the gap between setting a requirement and acquiring the solution short, definitely compared to the PAF/PN. 

So, as far as I can see, any chance of waiting for a joint-venture or some new helicopter is out of the picture, _unless _it fits into a complementary, non-urgent -- but still important long-term -- need. 

In other words, the PAA will opt for the Z-10ME, unless the LHTEC engine clears for the T129 (in which case, it'll stick with the T129). And if the AH-1Z does not come, the PAA may consider waiting on a next-gen heavyweight attack helicopter, such as ATAK-2, AW249, or China's solution.

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## PAR 5

Q. What will soon ATAK T-129 will have common with FN SCAR?

A. A lot of supporters on PDF but nothing on the ground while Chinese have the last laugh

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAR 5 said:


> Q. What will soon ATAK 19 will have common with FN SCAR?
> 
> A. A lot of supporters on PDF but nothing on the ground while Chinese have the last laugh


But it has more to do with us opting to keep importing things than working on our own solutions (or joint-ventures), no? It's as if we're opting to maintain a dependency on outsiders.

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## beijingwalker

*Pakistan to buy Chinese attack helicopters if Turkey and US fail to deliver*
*Gareth Jennings, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
27 February 2020
Pakistan will procure the Chinese-built Z-10 attack helicopter if Turkey and the United States fail to deliver on their orders of the T-129 and AH-1Z respectively, a senior offer said on 26 February.

Speaking at the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference in London, the commander of Pakistan's Army Aviation, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, said that the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10ME "remains an option" if the Turkish Aerospace T-129 and Bell AH-1Z Viper prove to be unobtainable for different reasons.

The Pakistan Army has a pressing need to replace its 32 ageing Bell AH-1 Cobra helicopters that have been in service for more than 30 years, with Gen Ahmed's predecessor, Major General Nasir D Shah, telling _Jane's_ and other defence media in January 2018, "The AH-1 helicopters have provided effective close support for our ground forces engaged in counterinsurgency [COIN] operations, but they cannot be employed effectively in high-altitude operations above 8,000 ft."

In the near-term, the army partially offset these limitations with the four Mil Mi-35s that it ordered from Russian some years ago, and which were delivered to the country in late 2017. Further to the Mi-35s, it evaluated the AH-1Z, T-129, and the Z-10 attack helicopters.

In January 2016 it was announced that Bell had been awarded a contract for 12 AH-1Zs, and in April 2017 _Jane's_ reported that the first three of 12 would be delivered in mid‐2017, with a second order to follow. However, the aircraft were yet to be delivered, and while there has been no official statement concerning reasons for delay it is understood to result from the current strained Pakistan-US relations.

https://www.janes.com/article/94566...-helicopters-if-turkey-and-us-fail-to-deliver

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## Haris Ali2140

beijingwalker said:


> *Pakistan to buy Chinese attack helicopters if Turkey and US fail to deliver*
> *Gareth Jennings, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
> 27 February 2020
> Pakistan will procure the Chinese-built Z-10 attack helicopter if Turkey and the United States fail to deliver on their orders of the T-129 and AH-1Z respectively, a senior offer said on 26 February.
> 
> Speaking at the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference in London, the commander of Pakistan's Army Aviation, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, said that the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10ME "remains an option" if the Turkish Aerospace T-129 and Bell AH-1Z Viper prove to be unobtainable for different reasons.
> 
> The Pakistan Army has a pressing need to replace its 32 ageing Bell AH-1 Cobra helicopters that have been in service for more than 30 years, with Gen Ahmed's predecessor, Major General Nasir D Shah, telling _Jane's_ and other defence media in January 2018, "The AH-1 helicopters have provided effective close support for our ground forces engaged in counterinsurgency [COIN] operations, but they cannot be employed effectively in high-altitude operations above 8,000 ft."
> 
> In the near-term, the army partially offset these limitations with the four Mil Mi-35s that it ordered from Russian some years ago, and which were delivered to the country in late 2017. Further to the Mi-35s, it evaluated the AH-1Z, T-129, and the Z-10 attack helicopters.
> 
> In January 2016 it was announced that Bell had been awarded a contract for 12 AH-1Zs, and in April 2017 _Jane's_ reported that the first three of 12 would be delivered in mid‐2017, with a second order to follow. However, the aircraft were yet to be delivered, and while there has been no official statement concerning reasons for delay it is understood to result from the current strained Pakistan-US relations.
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/94566...-helicopters-if-turkey-and-us-fail-to-deliver


Any chance for TOT???


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## Khanivore

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The alternative to "matching the Apache" would be working with China or Turkey on their respective heavy attack helicopter programs.


I think China is working on a heavy attack helicopter as we speak.


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## nomi007

Question is really simple?
why Pakistan is not using diplomatic links to convince the USA?
2nd why we are not considering western engines for T-129.

An other option is very simple may be that's work, if we cancel the T-129 deal and go for AH-1Z from USA directly.
Buy American Cobras than they will release 12 Cobras

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## polanski

nomi007 said:


> Question is really simple?
> why Pakistan is not using diplomatic links to convince the USA?
> 2nd why we are not considering western engines for T-129.
> 
> An other option is very simple may be that's work, if we cancel the T-129 deal and go for AH-1Z from USA directly.
> Buy American Cobras than they will release 12 Cobras



Trump Administration sanctioned Bell Helicopters and TAI. You can wait until July 2020, result will be the same. 

One option, if Imran Khan visits Washington and listen to Trump and withdraw support for various organizations, the US considers as terrorists organizations. Mike Pompeo visited Pakistan, met his counterpart and explained this to his Counterpart. Pakistan also has China baggage with them. Politically and financially challenging situations for US to support foreign military sale when China directly involved in political matters within Pakistan. IMF recently advised Pakistan to reduce dependence on China. Pakistan needs to think about greater goods for Pakistan, not China. The US has given Pakistan almost $33 billion aid since 2002. The US currently withhold $800 million Security Aid to Pakistan. 

Pakistan intends to procure Chinese Z-10 attack helicopter following sanctions by the US: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ard-china-for-attack-helicopter-requirements/


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## khanasifm

Interesting [emoji848] 

Even if ah-1z or engines released what’s next ?? Another headache [emoji856] 


https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ng-parts-and-components-to-turkish-companies/


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## KaiserX

Kill this deal asap before any more time is wasted. Do we need another decade gone before we learn from our mistakes??? if we keep following so called experts who make people believe such sanction proof weapons are viable then they are definately no experts.. just freelance bloggers with to much free time


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## SD 10

polanski said:


> Trump Administration sanctioned Bell Helicopters and TAI. You can wait until July 2020, result will be the same.
> 
> One option, if Imran Khan visits Washington and listen to Trump and withdraw support for various organizations, the US considers as terrorists organizations. Mike Pompeo visited Pakistan, met his counterpart and explained this to his Counterpart. Pakistan also has China baggage with them. Politically and financially challenging situations for US to support foreign military sale when China directly involved in political matters within Pakistan. IMF recently advised Pakistan to reduce dependence on China. Pakistan needs to think about greater goods for Pakistan, not China. The US has given Pakistan almost $33 billion aid since 2002. The US currently withhold $800 million Security Aid to Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan intends to procure Chinese Z-10 attack helicopter following sanctions by the US: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ard-china-for-attack-helicopter-requirements/


NO THANKS! T


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## Beast

khanasifm said:


> Interesting [emoji848]
> 
> Even if ah-1z or engines released what’s next ?? Another headache [emoji856]
> 
> 
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ng-parts-and-components-to-turkish-companies/


Turkey is very limited in terms of military major hardware export. It not reasonable to produced 100% indigneous for a fighter jet, attack helo or warship. Turkey is a less than a trillion dollar economy. It is beyond their means.

Look at Saab. Given their long history of aviation, they have yet to produced fighter jet and weapon to achieve 100% indigenous until now.


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## graphican

Second-best helicopter at hand is much better than the best helicopter you never had. War with India is looming and it's not difficult to decide.

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## blain2

polanski said:


> Trump Administration sanctioned Bell Helicopters and TAI. You can wait until July 2020, result will be the same.
> 
> One option, if Imran Khan visits Washington and listen to Trump and withdraw support for various organizations, the US considers as terrorists organizations. Mike Pompeo visited Pakistan, met his counterpart and explained this to his Counterpart. Pakistan also has China baggage with them. Politically and financially challenging situations for US to support foreign military sale when China directly involved in political matters within Pakistan. IMF recently advised Pakistan to reduce dependence on China. Pakistan needs to think about greater goods for Pakistan, not China. The US has given Pakistan almost $33 billion aid since 2002. The US currently withhold $800 million Security Aid to Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan intends to procure Chinese Z-10 attack helicopter following sanctions by the US: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ard-china-for-attack-helicopter-requirements/


AH-1Z are not worth all that and the same goes for licensing for TAI helicopters. The US needs to realize that Pakistan wants to straddle the middle of the road. It does not want to work against China or the US (whereas US has recruited India to do just that). As such, if need be, Pakistan will make do with Chinese platforms.

Greater good for Pakistan is trade, not assistance. CPEC offers opportunity to trade not just with China but other countries as well and is an ongoing benefit whereas assistance is always diminishing until the next big crises occurs. Trade will open the doors for Pakistan to generate enough capacity to buy what it needs without always being under pressure by those who provide assistance.

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## mingle

blain2 said:


> AH-1Z are not worth all that and the same goes for licensing for TAI helicopters. The US needs to realize that Pakistan wants to straddle the middle of the road. It does not want to work against China or the US (whereas US has recruited India to do just that). As such, if need be, Pakistan will make do with Chinese platforms.
> 
> Greater good for Pakistan is trade, not assistance. CPEC offers opportunity to trade not just with China but other countries as well and is an ongoing benefit where assistance is always diminishing until the next big crises occurs. That will open the doors for Pakistan to generate enough capacity to buy what it needs without always being under pressure by those who provide assistance.


Good point grow Ur pie once pie is large enough I assure U same US will offer Pak anything what Pak needs

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## nomi007

we are already specialist with russian engines, best for Pak to select this engine


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## GriffinsRule

So basically now that Turkey and Russia find themselves on the opposing sides again, its quiet likely the S-400 purchase might not go through, hence resolving the issue between them and the US, hence F-35 back online for them, and T-129 and engines and other such issues back on track for us.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> So basically now that Turkey and Russia find themselves on the opposing sides again, its quiet likely the S-400 purchase might not go through, hence resolving the issue between them and the US, hence F-35 back online for them, and T-129 and engines and other such issues back on track for us.


It already stated on this forum before turkish policy is not clear but looks clarity is coming. F35 is already started along PAC 3 system So it's very highly likely T129 engine issue will resolve Pakistan policy also getting clarity aliening herself US Taliban Pak along turkey against Iran and Co


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## aziqbal

GriffinsRule said:


> So basically now that Turkey and Russia find themselves on the opposing sides again, its quiet likely the S-400 purchase might not go through, hence resolving the issue between them and the US, hence F-35 back online for them, and T-129 and engines and other such issues back on track for us.



Turkey already have S400 deliveries 

no chance of F35 ever coming to Turkey zero 

Erdogan made a massive blunder and now has neither F35 and half of S400


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## mingle

aziqbal said:


> Turkey already have S400 deliveries
> 
> no chance of F35 ever coming to Turkey zero
> 
> Erdogan made a massive blunder and now has neither F35 and half of S400


Well LM said Turkey is now behind F35 program but very good chances are they will rejoin it along theior request PAC 3 system. Very likely approval of T129 engines for Pak


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## mshah

Time will tell but apparently Erdogan is making strategic mistake in Syria by trying to control area along Turkey's border with Syria. This has put Turkey not only on collision point with Russia and Syria but is also getting their soldiers killed in an external conflict for no gain. Turkey has fewer allies and should try to contain conflicts on its border rather creating new ones.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Turkey may still get the F35 if you want.

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## Irfan Baloch

mingle said:


> Well LM said Turkey is now behind F35 program but very good chances are they will rejoin it along theior request PAC 3 system. Very likely approval of T129 engines for Pak


how so? has the purchase of S400 not shut the door on all American military technology forever for Turkey?
what has changed?



RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Turkey may still get the F35 if you want.


is a compromise reached between Turkey and Americans despite the presence of S400?


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Irfan Baloch said:


> ve Amerikalılar arasında S400 bulunmasına rağmen uzlaşmaya varıldı mı?



The obligation to have the s400 is completely empty. If an agreement is made that the S400 cannot be used, it can already be purchased

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## blain2

aziqbal said:


> Erdogan made a massive blunder and now has neither F35 and half of S400


Too early to sound off such stark conclusions.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

blain2 said:


> Too early to sound off such stark conclusions.



We are not Pakistan. We were put on the same scale under the name of Muslim brotherhood, but even our most right-wingers are more western than other high-populated Muslim countries. Our military standards, cultures, and geography. US to Turkey, India and Pakistan 'You're supposed to act as a kind act, but this has always been ups and downs, nothing has changed at the end.


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## Zarvan

By the way now we have given USA the peace deal it wanted we should try to get our 12 Zulus and also engines for T 129 released, and even better if we can get two squadrons of F-16 BLOCK 70.

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> By the way now we have given USA the peace deal it wanted we should try to get our 12 Zulus and also engines for T 129 released, and even better if we can get two squadrons of F-16 BLOCK 70.


More than that IA we will get all we want its best thing happened to US in last 19yrs in Afghanistan.

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> By the way now we have given USA the peace deal it wanted we should try to get our 12 Zulus and also engines for T 129 released, and even better if we can get two squadrons of F-16 BLOCK 70.


Wwe can try but the US interests are served so why should it strengthen our hands? With US we should always get the stuff we want first and then comply with its wishes later. However I felt the peace accord was more in our interest as well as the US.
NOW that we have let it out of the trap why should it comply with our requests and strengthen us against its strategic ally? So what happens now will prove where we stand and more importantly how sincere the US is towards India.
A

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## Sunny4pak

GriffinsRule said:


> So basically now that Turkey and Russia find themselves on the opposing sides again, its quiet likely the S-400 purchase might not go through, *hence resolving the issue between them and the US, hence F-35 back online for them, and T-129 and engines and other such issues back on track for us.*



Sir as far as F-35 Program is concerned there are almost 0% chances of Turkish being asked to join the program & manufacture components. Furthermore as far as LHTEC T800 Engines are concerned things are heading in that way considering Pak-US current relations situation along-with Turkey in tangle with Russia regarding Syria. Let's see how it goes.


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## Sunny4pak

There is another possibility also in near future. 
Pak may opt. Z10ME from China, as a stop gap, and wait for ATAK2 Variant to come up with local Turkish engine, instead of basic ATAK (t129) variant.


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## Haris Ali2140

Ok. I thought you were talking about Zulus.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Ok. I thought you were talking about Zulus.


Yes I was. Zulus are being said to be Heavyweight Category in PAA



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Even with Z-10ME, the heavyweight requirement will remain. This might lead to joining the ATAK 2 or AW249, unless the US subsidizes the AH-1Z.


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## Haris Ali2140

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Yes I was. Zulus are being said to be Heavyweight Category in PAA


No I don't think so.


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## imadul

Tipu7 said:


> No. We have refused Mi28.
> 
> I guess the picture will be clear after July when fate of T129 will finalize.


Any particular reason MI-28(NE/Havoc) were refused? Not meeting requirements, price tag?



araz said:


> Wwe can try but the US interests are served so why should it strengthen our hands? With US we should always get the stuff we want first and then comply with its wishes later. However I felt the peace accord was more in our interest as well as the US.
> NOW that we have let it out of the trap why should it comply with our requests and strengthen us against its strategic ally? So what happens now will prove where we stand and more importantly how sincere the US is towards India.
> A


Right. Pakistan has already delivered to US demands at Zero cost to US. So no quid pro quo from US side. No surprises there.


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## The Eagle

It is said that "Coming soon" without any details but still.... and a nice picture.

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## Areesh

The Eagle said:


> It is said that "Coming soon" without any details but still.... and a nice picture.



Where it is said?

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## mingle

Areesh said:


> Where it is said?


They coming sitt tight US got all they want from Pak

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> It is said that "Coming soon" without any details but still.... and a nice picture.


Engine approval????


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## Khanivore

Don't get your hopes high. Purchase of T-129 would always mean they're prone to sanctions. Z-10 is safer route for Pakistan. Chinese tech. is fast improving and will soon reach Western standards.

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## Signalian

imadul said:


> Any particular reason MI-28(NE/Havoc) were refused? Not meeting requirements, price tag?


Mi-35 is already in service. If Mi-28NE would have been an option, PAA wouldnt have gone for Mi-35M which offers almost similar capabilities.

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## mingle

Khanivore said:


> Don't get your hopes high. Purchase of T-129 would always mean they're prone to sanctions. Z-10 is safer route for Pakistan. Chinese tech. is fast improving and will soon reach Western standards.


Turkey will ensure spare parts supplies


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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> Mi-35 is already in service. If Mi-28NE would have been an option, PAA wouldnt have gone for Mi-35M which offers almost similar capabilities.


We went for MI-35 it was because it can carry 6 to 7 guys also

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## Hassan Guy



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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> Mi-35 is already in service. If Mi-28NE would have been an option, PAA wouldnt have gone for Mi-35M which offers almost similar capabilities.


Save the ability to carry 4(and 6 uncomfortably) inside to drop off for an assault. The Mi-28 can carry 2 in an internal torture chamber.

Theoretically, the Mi-35’s could rearm in the field by just landing and having these rearmament guys reload.

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## imadul

Signalian said:


> Mi-35 is already in service. If Mi-28NE would have been an option, PAA wouldnt have gone for Mi-35M which offers almost similar capabilities.


Not similar, Dear brother
Mi-35M is attack plus 8 troop transport and medevac, it is main purpose is not attack but it can deal with the situation.
Role of 28-NE is attack, has more A2G missiles plus 2 x A2A, and heavier rockets.
Has overall much less cross section so much more suited to attack ops.

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## GriffinsRule



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## Irfan Baloch

please stick to the topic 
take the discussion of chinese, American and Russian helicopter options to other threads


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## Ahmet Pasha

To reiterate what I've said numerous times. Seeing the T129 go would be sad indeed. T129 would have offered us in roads into PAC manufacturing or at least thinking about making our own family of helicopters.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Recent Turkish Grand Drone Delights vis-à-vis the Russian made tanks + AD have put the choppers in the back burner....

Pak should rather spend this money on building this drone + EW capability. And, here no foreign string for all engines are being indigenously manufactured....

The Indian armored is 100% Russian...

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## Shabi1

Signalian said:


> Mi-35 is already in service. If Mi-28NE would have been an option, PAA wouldnt have gone for Mi-35M which offers almost similar capabilities.


The role it was bought for was not anti armor, Mi-35 is very unique among gunships a specifically in use with PA for COIN.
It was bought because the Bell-412 and Mi-17 troop carriers needed Cobra escorts, which was not possible all the time. The Mi-35 solves the problem by being the troop transport and the fire support.


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## Signalian

imadul said:


> Not similar, Dear brother
> Mi-35M is attack plus 8 troop transport and medevac, it is main purpose is not attack but it can deal with the situation.
> Role of 28-NE is attack, has more A2G missiles plus 2 x A2A, and heavier rockets.
> Has overall much less cross section so much more suited to attack ops.





Shabi1 said:


> The role it was bought for was not anti armor, Mi-35 is very unique among gunships a specifically in use with PA for COIN.
> It was bought because the Bell-412 and Mi-17 troop carriers needed Cobra escorts, which was not possible all the time. The Mi-35 solves the problem by being the troop transport and the fire support.


Capabilities - That's what i mentioned. Not role !


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## Robin rone

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Recent Turkish Grand Drone Delights vis-à-vis the Russian made tanks + AD have put the choppers in the back burner....
> 
> Pak should rather spend this money on building this drone + EW capability. And, here no foreign string for all engines are being indigenously manufactured....
> 
> The Indian armored is 100% Russian...


I don't think what Turkey done with ew and UAV to saa will work out same with India they are much more advanced than SAA also after Feb 27 they ramped up their ad much more ,if am correct India lack armed UACV which Pakistan already posses but India also have land based Ew system called samykuta so Pakistan can employ TAF tactics after successful SEAD op by paf fighter not with UCAV

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## Cool_Soldier

Pakistan is in dire need of Good attack helicopter as our previous fleet is enough old now although still performing well. Unfortunately, decision was taken very late to buy new ones.Now, both purchased have hit strings due to USA.

If matter is resolved in one year, fine else we have to take other measure to resolve this issue.
I personally think, this barrier will lead Pakistan to manufacture its own Attack helicopter in near future like F-16 deal was blocked and it paved the way towards JF-17.Necessity is the mother of invention.

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## Robin rone

Cool_Soldier said:


> Pakistan is in dire need of Good attack helicopter as our previous fleet is enough old now although still performing well. Unfortunately, decision was taken very late to buy new ones.Now, both purchased have hit strings due to USA.
> 
> If matter is resolved in one year, fine else we have to take other measure to resolve this issue.
> I personally think, this barrier will lead Pakistan to manufacture its own Attack helicopter in near future like F-16 deal was blocked and it paved the way towards JF-17.Necessity is the mother of invention.


Pakistan must go with Chinese counterpart z10 becoz it is the only one currently economically affordable and get numerical competitive advantage to Pakistan now also wast amount of weapon Chinese weapon selection also gud thing for Pakistan during war scenario spare parts and ammunition will be easily available becoz of China's logistics support but in other hand for India it will became nightmare becoz its uncle Sam product

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## Cool_Soldier

OR get ready to pay for 15 AH1 Zs to get the machine.


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## Bullzz

Cool_Soldier said:


> OR get ready to pay for 15 AH1 Zs to get the machine.



In my opinion we should never opt for American machines anymore.

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## Cool_Soldier

You are right but we can get rid of gradually.


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## denel

Cool_Soldier said:


> OR get ready to pay for 15 AH1 Zs to get the machine.


Well, let us see, after this Afghan resolution, there may be a TiT change of mind, but given how much he wants to keep monies near his nuts, until there is a change in administration there will be nothing in near future.

As we have noted, any new projects or procurements must be ITAR free; fortunately during the past 60s/70s our leadership had seen the clouds and forced massive localisation. This is the only route and it will happen but there needs to be a willingness at the top echelons starting with laying the foundations for a good economy, parallel industries (note - NOT run by blockhead appointees but by technical and business leaderships; keep the blockheads as clients ONLY).

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Robin rone said:


> I don't think what Turkey done with ew and UAV to saa will work out same with India they are much more advanced than SAA also after Feb 27 they ramped up their ad much more ,if am correct India lack armed UACV which Pakistan already posses but India also have land based Ew system called samykuta so Pakistan can employ TAF tactics after successful SEAD op by paf fighter not with UCAV


Have the Russians got less capabilities than the Indians??? Of course UAVs will get into the theater after the PAF achieves air domination. If IAF is beaten in the first round they are gone for a couple of downed aircrafts induces a “ Fear of God” into their hearts...

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## Awan68

The only reason we choose the Atak over z10 was the performance of the American engine in high altitude and Intense environments, why do people here think that the Turkish engine will be able to match that?, Chinese are well ahead of the Turks in engine manufacturing n still they cannot match Yankee engines, without these engines, Z10 is a much better option.

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## nomi007

It is better to buy AH-1Z rather T-129.
this is the best option it will also convince USA to release remaining 12+3 Ah-1z,
2nd PAA already have very vast experience in cobras.


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## Ra's al Ghul

are we gonna get something ? anything ? ask Italy if we can get some kind of attack heli from them . 
its been 5 years, first Ah-1Z, thn Z-10, thn Atak, thn again Z-10ME .

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

Bullzzz said:


> In my opinion we should never opt for American machines anymore.


Instead of buying just 15 American helicopter, we should spent this money on upgrading our F-16s.


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## Bullzz

We should replace our aging fleet with the combo of Chinese and Turkish. Pakistan should induct immediately 15 to 20 Z-10ME for urgent need and transfer of burden from Cobras and the rest T-129 from Turkey.


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## Armchair

Ra's al Ghul said:


> are we gonna get something ? anything ? ask Italy if we can get some kind of attack heli from them .
> its been 5 years, first Ah-1Z, thn Z-10, thn Atak, thn again Z-10ME .


Not a bad idea. They may be able to give some A-129 out of their old stock. Then, one could gradually bring in T-129s.

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## Cool_Soldier

I am sure, this year final line action will be set for acquisition of Attack Helicopters.
Whether on track will see the way to home or new contract will pave the way for new type to join PAA


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## LKJ86

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Mi28/Ka52/Mi35with advance sensors and weapons package instead of Chinese junk.


No one pushes you buy Chinese junk.


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## Lone Ranger

LKJ86 said:


> No one pushes you buy Chinese junk.


ignore him bro

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## Dr. Strangelove

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Mi28/Ka52/Mi35with advance sensors and weapons package instead of Chinese junk.


Its Actually Russian Junk we all saw what their Advanced sensors did last Feb. And Russian Hardware is too maintenance intensive and Russians try to get as much benefit from it as they can.

With Z-10 we get to have a freedom to mate any Weapon we wish with it. From local Manufacturing to 3 figure fleet size. And they could be replaced easily in the times of War from Chinese Stocks.

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## musaji

There is a reason why PAA chose T-129 over Z-10 explained very well in here:

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20200323.aspx#foo

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## araz

musaji said:


> There is a reason why PAA chose T-129 over Z-10 explained very well in here:
> 
> https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20200323.aspx#foo


So the key word here remains the engine. Thishas long been a hurdle in Chinese command over aviation technology. I am sure the Chinese will over come this eventually but like all things in life it requires time and patience. The Turkish are developing their own engines but that again is some years away. So both options are held back on account of the engine problem. We on the other hand have not even started with our specialized steel manufacturing and wind and hydroelectric Turbines much less jet and helo engines.
A

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## Fieldmarshal

musaji said:


> There is a reason why PAA chose T-129 over Z-10 explained very well in here:
> 
> https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20200323.aspx#foo



When they arrived in Pak for trials they were a work in progress and PLA wanted input of PAA and its evaluation of the machine. Lots of PAA input where incoperated into the machine while it was in Pak and the rest and more when it went back.

And the result is the beast of a machine u see now

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Turkey is forcing the TS1400 into an "aggressive two-year schedule" -- I think they want to expedite its development, testing and certification for the PAA.

They want to export this helicopter, and the PAA would've been their largest buyer, so we retain a little leverage here.

Instead of rushing, Pak Army can take a page out of the PAF and PN's books -- take a step back. Go for the solution that (1) meets your needs and (2) raises the local technology base so that we can develop our own systems in the future (i.e. save foreign currency and maybe earn it through exports, either as part of a supply chain or standalone products).

I get that the Cobras are old and aging, but you got yourself here by ignoring the idea of developing an attack helicopter (even a Z-19-like scout with ATGMs) some years earlier. It's a sunk problem, and now you're trying to funnel funding to it in panic when you could've spent it to proactively prevent this issue in the future. If we don't, then this crap is going to keep happening again and again, and it'll get harder to solve.

Joining the T625 is on the table (Turkey offered it), and it seems that the ATAK with Turkish engines is the T629 (6-ton attack helicopter that could use the same engines, dynamic parts and other critical components as the T625). So, you can potentially join both. Bring 40-50% of its production to Pakistan, perhaps as a joint-TAI/PAC subsidiary (call it Indus Helicopters) and have that thing funnel work to smaller private-sector entities, invest in R&D, etc.

Prof. DEMİR: “In Pakistan the T129 ATAK Program, the Pakistani side has consented to give an additional 1-year period.”

Providing information on the Pakistan T129 ATAK Helicopter Program, the contract of which was signed in 2018 but no progress has been achieved regarding the export license of the engine to be procured from the U.S., Prof. DEMİR said, “The procedures of export license application for the engine are in progress. Pakistan has agreed to grant an additional one-year period regarding the export license. We're on standby. *Could there be a solution of an alternative engine? We continue our efforts with the claim to meet this requirement with a unique engine (national engine development program).* Could there be a quicker solution? Turkish Aerospace continues its negotiations on this issue. Export license is an issue that also concerns Pakistan as well as the U.S., and the Pakistani side continues to negotiate with all parties. We anticipate achieving a positive result. *However, if no positive result is accomplished in one year and Pakistan sees the point that we reach in the development of the unique engine (TS1400) and if the all parties are willing to face all of the challenges and compromise over the unique solution, the national engine can be replace the existing engine.* There are quality, test and certification processes in the development projects in respect to the schedule. *Those processes can take much longer than expected for air platforms. The core engine was ignited .We're talking about an aggressive two-year schedule.* Even when the engine is ready, there are certain extensions in the test and qualification processes. Since it is an air platform, we should not take risks. When setting the two-year schedule, we have always said that the issues that may arise in such a process should be severely scrutinized. In this respect, we can conclude that the next two-year process is a process in which all requirements and conditions need to be fulfilled.”

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...heduled-for-2020-in-the-defence-industry-3819​

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## KaiserX

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Turkey is forcing the TS1400 into an "aggressive two-year schedule" -- I think they want to expedite its development, testing and certification for the PAA.
> 
> They want to export this helicopter, and the PAA would've been their largest buyer, so we retain a little leverage here.
> 
> Instead of rushing, Pak Army can take a page out of the PAF and PN's books -- take a step back. Go for the solution that (1) meets your needs and (2) raises the local technology base so that we can develop our own systems in the future (i.e. save foreign currency and maybe earn it through exports, either as part of a supply chain or standalone products).
> 
> I get that the Cobras are old and aging, but you got yourself here by ignoring the idea of developing an attack helicopter (even a Z-19-like scout with ATGMs) some years earlier. It's a sunk problem, and now you're trying to funnel funding to it in panic when you could've spent it to proactively prevent this issue in the future. If we don't, then this crap is going to keep happening again and again, and it'll get harder to solve.
> 
> Joining the T625 is on the table (Turkey offered it), and it seems that the ATAK with Turkish engines is the T629 (6-ton attack helicopter that could use the same engines, dynamic parts and other critical components as the T625). So, you can potentially join both. Bring 40-50% of its production to Pakistan, perhaps as a joint-TAI/PAC subsidiary (call it Indus Helicopters) and have that thing funnel work to smaller private-sector entities, invest in R&D, etc.
> 
> Prof. DEMİR: “In Pakistan the T129 ATAK Program, the Pakistani side has consented to give an additional 1-year period.”
> 
> Providing information on the Pakistan T129 ATAK Helicopter Program, the contract of which was signed in 2018 but no progress has been achieved regarding the export license of the engine to be procured from the U.S., Prof. DEMİR said, “The procedures of export license application for the engine are in progress. Pakistan has agreed to grant an additional one-year period regarding the export license. We're on standby. *Could there be a solution of an alternative engine? We continue our efforts with the claim to meet this requirement with a unique engine (national engine development program).* Could there be a quicker solution? Turkish Aerospace continues its negotiations on this issue. Export license is an issue that also concerns Pakistan as well as the U.S., and the Pakistani side continues to negotiate with all parties. We anticipate achieving a positive result. *However, if no positive result is accomplished in one year and Pakistan sees the point that we reach in the development of the unique engine (TS1400) and if the all parties are willing to face all of the challenges and compromise over the unique solution, the national engine can be replace the existing engine.* There are quality, test and certification processes in the development projects in respect to the schedule. *Those processes can take much longer than expected for air platforms. The core engine was ignited .We're talking about an aggressive two-year schedule.* Even when the engine is ready, there are certain extensions in the test and qualification processes. Since it is an air platform, we should not take risks. When setting the two-year schedule, we have always said that the issues that may arise in such a process should be severely scrutinized. In this respect, we can conclude that the next two-year process is a process in which all requirements and conditions need to be fulfilled.”
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...heduled-for-2020-in-the-defence-industry-3819​



PA would be foolish to even consider something which is so far off when they are flying 30-40 year old cobras. I say botch the whole thing and focus on chinese Z-10's. We could have had many of these birds by now


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## Tipu7

KaiserX said:


> PA would be foolish to even consider something which is so far off when they are flying 30-40 year old cobras. I say botch the whole thing and focus on chinese Z-10's. We could have had many of these birds by now


Z10 are not good enough. (still) 


Fieldmarshal said:


> When they arrived in Pak for trials they were a work in progress and PLA wanted input of PAA and its evaluation of the machine. Lots of PAA input where incoperated into the machine while it was in Pak and the rest and more when it went back.
> 
> And the result is the beast of a machine u see now


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Turkey is forcing the TS1400 into an "aggressive two-year schedule" -- I think they want to expedite its development, testing and certification for the PAA.
> 
> They want to export this helicopter, and the PAA would've been their largest buyer, so we retain a little leverage here.
> 
> Instead of rushing, Pak Army can take a page out of the PAF and PN's books -- take a step back. Go for the solution that (1) meets your needs and (2) raises the local technology base so that we can develop our own systems in the future (i.e. save foreign currency and maybe earn it through exports, either as part of a supply chain or standalone products).
> 
> I get that the Cobras are old and aging, but you got yourself here by ignoring the idea of developing an attack helicopter (even a Z-19-like scout with ATGMs) some years earlier. It's a sunk problem, and now you're trying to funnel funding to it in panic when you could've spent it to proactively prevent this issue in the future. If we don't, then this crap is going to keep happening again and again, and it'll get harder to solve.
> 
> Joining the T625 is on the table (Turkey offered it), and it seems that the ATAK with Turkish engines is the T629 (6-ton attack helicopter that could use the same engines, dynamic parts and other critical components as the T625). So, you can potentially join both. Bring 40-50% of its production to Pakistan, perhaps as a joint-TAI/PAC subsidiary (call it Indus Helicopters) and have that thing funnel work to smaller private-sector entities, invest in R&D, etc.
> 
> Prof. DEMİR: “In Pakistan the T129 ATAK Program, the Pakistani side has consented to give an additional 1-year period.”
> 
> Providing information on the Pakistan T129 ATAK Helicopter Program, the contract of which was signed in 2018 but no progress has been achieved regarding the export license of the engine to be procured from the U.S., Prof. DEMİR said, “The procedures of export license application for the engine are in progress. Pakistan has agreed to grant an additional one-year period regarding the export license. We're on standby. *Could there be a solution of an alternative engine? We continue our efforts with the claim to meet this requirement with a unique engine (national engine development program).* Could there be a quicker solution? Turkish Aerospace continues its negotiations on this issue. Export license is an issue that also concerns Pakistan as well as the U.S., and the Pakistani side continues to negotiate with all parties. We anticipate achieving a positive result. *However, if no positive result is accomplished in one year and Pakistan sees the point that we reach in the development of the unique engine (TS1400) and if the all parties are willing to face all of the challenges and compromise over the unique solution, the national engine can be replace the existing engine.* There are quality, test and certification processes in the development projects in respect to the schedule. *Those processes can take much longer than expected for air platforms. The core engine was ignited .We're talking about an aggressive two-year schedule.* Even when the engine is ready, there are certain extensions in the test and qualification processes. Since it is an air platform, we should not take risks. When setting the two-year schedule, we have always said that the issues that may arise in such a process should be severely scrutinized. In this respect, we can conclude that the next two-year process is a process in which all requirements and conditions need to be fulfilled.”
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...heduled-for-2020-in-the-defence-industry-3819​


Among all of the folks Paks should be the most understanding of this "eat grass" attitude regarding the Turkish indigenous engine development efforts...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

KaiserX said:


> PA would be foolish to even consider something which is so far off when they are flying 30-40 year old cobras. I say botch the whole thing and focus on chinese Z-10's. We could have had many of these birds by now


This is assuming the Z-10MEs are good enough. If they aren't, then we'll be back here in 10-15 years spelling out the same issue. Not only that, but the PAA itself said it now wants to "match" the capabilities India's getting with the AH-64E.

So, already the Z-10ME isn't going solve the issue here because it lacks the payload of the AH-64E (if not more, such as the Apache Guardian's ability to control UAVs, etc). I don't want to double-spend on another type when we could've handled this right from the start by telling the Turks (or Chinese) to add X,Y,Z into their platforms.

The Turks are in better light to me because they're upfront about offering other goods (e.g., co-production). This is the activity we need to actually support our own industry. And unlike the Chinese, we do have a little more leverage in that our orders do impact economies-of-scale for the Turks, we can exact other gains. For one thing, we pushed the Turks to offer bespoke credit lines (for T129/MILGEM) when they previously had no policy for such; we can take it a few steps further.

The '30-40 year-old Cobra' point is the cost of not executing a domestic attack helicopter much earlier (or even 10-15 years ago). I know for a fact that folks within the PA and PAF were even bringing the idea to the table (something along the lines of what India did with the Dhruv/LCH, but with China or France -- when such things were put to our table). The PAF and PN sorted it out, it's time for the PA to do the same.

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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So, already the Z-10ME isn't going solve the issue here because it lacks the payload of the AH-64E


Are you comparing 6-ton Z-10 with 10-ton AH-64?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> Are you comparing 6-ton Z-10 with 10-ton AH-64?


No. My point was that the PAA wants to 'match' the capabilities of the AH-64E, so we know that the Z-10ME wouldn't do it. Rather, the PAA will seek yet another attack helicopter anyways.

It can't go around saying, "we want to match the AH-64E" and then lobby for something that obviously isn't meant for that, leaving said gap open and causing the country to spend even more money.

Instead, it should co-fund a program that actually meets those requirements spec-for-spec -- like the ATAK-2 or China's rumoured heavyweight attack helicopter. Or if the PAA's idea of 'matching' has to do with other things (e.g. mmW radar, links to UAVs, etc) then get those added to Z-10ME/T629. Either way, it's going to need time to do it.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No. My point was that the PAA wants to 'match' the capabilities of the AH-64E, so we know that the Z-10ME wouldn't do it. Rather, the PAA will seek yet another attack helicopter anyways.
> 
> It can't go around saying, "we want to match the AH-64E" and then lobby for something that obviously isn't meant for that, leaving said gap open and causing the country to spend even more money.
> 
> Instead, it should co-fund a program that actually meets those requirements spec-for-spec -- like the ATAK-2 or China's rumoured heavyweight attack helicopter.


Brother, In your opinion what options does PAA have, off the shelf?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Brother, In your opinion what options does PAA have, off the shelf?


Basically, ITAR-free options should be doable.

For off-the-shelf, the only currently available options are the Z-10ME and Tiger, but it was uninterested in the latter (shaky ties with France, costly, questionable long-term support, etc). Otherwise, it'll have to wait for newer ATAK/Z-10 versions, or wait for the Italian AW249 (but with the ITAR-free Safran engine).

Speaking of AW249, that's another option. It's an attack helicopter version of the AW149, so in the 8-9-ton class (around AH-1Z-size). Right now the Italians are leaning towards a GE engine, but the ITAR-free Safran engine (from the AW189K) is on the table for anyone who needs it.

You can get creative and try tackling the attack helicopter as well as utility and special mission helicopter needs with one core platform. So, AW249 for attack and the AW189K for transport, utility, CSAR, naval operations, etc; same engine and critical parts. 

The main question though is how willing Leonardo would be to transfer technology and allow Pakistan to take on meaningful work-share. I don't think they'd be as open as the Turks are right now, but the door for that is closing too.

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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> For off-the-shelf, the only currently available options are the Z-10ME and Tiger, but it was uninterested in the latter (shaky ties with France, costly, questionable long-term support, etc). Otherwise, it'll have to wait for newer ATAK/Z-10 versions, or wait for the Italian AW249 (but with the ITAR-free Safran engine).


Why not consider the options from Russia?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> Why not consider the options from Russia?


Because there's a 99% chance of the US sanctioning Pakistan, at least to the extent of stopping spare parts support for our F-16s, C-130s, P-3Cs, etc. Moreover, the US is of a few places where Pakistan maintains a positive trade balance, so the US can also curb its imports from Pakistan and further harm our economy. Not a risk worth taking.

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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Because there's a 99% chance of the US sanctioning Pakistan, at least to the extent of stopping spare parts support for our F-16s, C-130s, P-3Cs, etc. Moreover, the US is of a few places where Pakistan maintains a positive trade balance, so the US can also curb its imports from Pakistan and further harm our economy. Not a risk worth taking.


IMHO, in near future, US would do the same to the weapons exports of China and maybe Turkey.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> IMHO, in near future, US would do the same to the weapons exports of China and maybe Turkey.


It's possible, but remember, Russia wasn't as economically integrated to the US as China and even Turkey are. The US must maintain a special approach with China -- delicate balance between animosity and cooperation. Ties with Turkey cooled, yes, however it's nowhere near as rocky as US ties with Iran/Russia.

However, as it stands today, the US can come down very hard on Pakistan if it buys from the Russians. There's an actual legislation in place (CAATSA) to allow for this; whereas with the Chinese and Turks, it (if anything) is a back-channel dispute, one where Pak can trade X for Y from the US (as it's not illegal to trade with either).



LKJ86 said:


> Besides, JF-17 is using Russia's engines...


But under a preexisting agreement.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Basically, ITAR-free options should be doable.
> 
> For off-the-shelf, the only currently available options are the Z-10ME and Tiger, but it was uninterested in the latter (shaky ties with France, costly, questionable long-term support, etc). Otherwise, it'll have to wait for newer ATAK/Z-10 versions, or wait for the Italian AW249 (but with the ITAR-free Safran engine).
> 
> Speaking of AW249, that's another option. It's an attack helicopter version of the AW149, so in the 8-9-ton class (around AH-1Z-size). Right now the Italians are leaning towards a GE engine, but the ITAR-free Safran engine (from the AW189K) is on the table for anyone who needs it.
> 
> You can get creative and try tackling the attack helicopter as well as utility and special mission helicopter needs with one core platform. So, AW249 for attack and the AW189K for transport, utility, CSAR, naval operations, etc; same engine and critical parts.
> 
> The main question though is how willing Leonardo would be to transfer technology and allow Pakistan to take on meaningful work-share. I don't think they'd be as open as the Turks are right now, but the door for that is closing too.


Wouldn't it be a better approach,if ATAK 2 being powered by one of TV3-117 series engines from Motor sich is selected?
Thus replacing need for AH-1Z and T129 altogather?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Sine Nomine said:


> Wouldn't it be a better approach,if ATAK 2 being powered by one of TV3-117 series engines from Motor sich is selected?
> Thus replacing need for AH-1Z and T129 altogather?


We'll need to see how the Turks approach the ATAK-2. I think they want to leverage the TS1400 work to develop a larger engine for the ATAK-2. However, if they want to expedite the ATAK-2, then the TV3-117 can be an option. OTOH, they may lean to a Safran engine (like the Aneto) in the interim until the next TS-variant is ready.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We'll need to see how the Turks approach the ATAK-2. I think they want to leverage the TS1400 work to develop a larger engine for the ATAK-2. However, if they want to expedite the ATAK-2, then the TV3-117 can be an option. OTOH, they may lean to a Safran engine (like the Aneto) in the interim until the next TS-variant is ready.


Safran and all other West based power packs should be no go,citing the fact that Bharat has France under firm grip and down the road we would be falling into bad books of West,if not both in military and economic fields atleast they would hit us in military field by putting sanctions,considering this i propose a partnership with Motor Sich and TAI in field of Helos,our fleet of Mi-17's and Pumas is also pretty much old now sonner or later it would be ready for replacement,getting a deal regarding TOT of TV3-117 series,would fit us,same series can be used for different class of helos from 6 ton to 15 tons.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Sine Nomine said:


> Safran and all other West based power packs should be no go,citing the fact that Bharat has France under firm grip and down the road we would be falling into bad books of West,if not both in military and economic fields atleast they would hit us in military field by putting sanctions,considering this i propose a partnership with Motor Sich and TAI in field of Helos,our fleet of Mi-17's and Pumas is also pretty much old now sonner or later it would be ready for replacement,getting a deal regarding TOT of TV3-117 series,would fit us,same series can be used for different class of helos from 6 ton to 15 tons.


If you really want to stretch things (for the sake of a big payoff)...consider funding or co-funding the development of a new turboshaft/turboprop in Ukraine.

Basically, the groundwork for it is already there in Motor Sich's MS-500V-series (link), so the key is to extend this into a 2,500 shp engine of our own. We literally pay them to develop one for us in Pakistan with turn-key ToT so that we can takeover after the completion of the design. It'd be our engine, but with Motor Sich's help.

We take this engine and fit it to a next-gen 10-ton helicopter platform that branches into (1) a tandem attack helicopter and (2) utility/CSAR/naval/transport helicopter. 

You then live off this engine for the next 50 years.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

All vehicles manufactured for enhanced strength and the army in Turkey is developed or produced using high western systems. The army does not want Russian - Ukrainian - Chinese products in any way. The biggest example is the new Firtina 2 Howitzer, ,Turkey is not choosing Ukraine for engine but choosing another supplier from the Western Country when Germany doesn't sale Mtu Engine.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If you really want to stretch things (for the sake of a big payoff)...consider funding or co-funding the development of a new turboshaft/turboprop in Ukraine.
> 
> Basically, the groundwork for it is already there in Motor Sich's MS-500V-series (link), so the key is to extend this into a 2,500 shp engine of our own. We literally pay them to develop one for us in Pakistan with turn-key ToT so that we can takeover after the completion of the design. It'd be our engine, but with Motor Sich's help.
> 
> We take this engine and fit it to a next-gen 10-ton helicopter platform that branches into (1) a tandem attack helicopter and (2) utility/CSAR/naval/transport helicopter.
> 
> You then live off this engine for the next 50 years.


I have read about what Motor sich offers and it would a little longer and costly way as compared to going for TV3, TV3-117VMA series covers it all for us,mind that countless TV-3's are powering helos out in field and if i am not wrong MS-500V2 can be got engine for T129.
TV3-117VMA would cover our needs from 6 ton to 15 or 20 ton.Sonner or later,we would see a thread discussing PAA Mi-17 and Puma replacement on PDF.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Sine Nomine said:


> I have read about what Motor sich offers and it would a little longer and costly way as compared to going for TV3, TV3-117VMA series covers it all for us,mind that countless TV-3's are powering helos out in field and if i am not wrong MS-500V2 can be got engine for T129.
> TV3-117VMA would cover our needs from 6 ton to 15 or 20 ton.Sonner or later,we would see a thread discussing PAA Mi-17 and Puma replacement on PDF.


MS-500V2 would be under-powered for T129. Best to wait for the TS1400.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> MS-500V2 would be under-powered for T129. Best to wait for the TS1400.


My bad i double checked it,it surely is under powered.Only one custom built from TV3-117VMA family would fit the bill.

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## cabatli_53

Armies want to favour reliable and proven products and they don't want to sacrifice quality matters for the sake of trade regulations. They will be the people who will die/survive inside these vehicles on most fierce conditions of the war against any threat so army always intend to select quality and reliability options. Our guys will try the all chances until It will be understood there is no way to procure the system requested from West. If all attempts fail, then The direction may be changed to other options. That is the example How political and monetary matters effect the course of events in procurement strategy so Countries sometimes forced to purchase inferior options.

In additions, The replacing the gas turbine engine on an aerial vehicle is not as simple as the one done on a land vehicles. The test, qualification, certification procedure may take a few years more If We want to integrate an Ukrainian engine for Atak helicopters. It is planned that TS-1400 domestic engine will make its maiden flight on T-625 utility helicopters in this year. It is the qualification phase of this engine. When this phase passed, The OK may be given for T-129 Atak helicopters as well but I don't suppose Atak with TS-1400 will be ready before 2022/23.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Armies want to favour reliable and proven products and they don't want to sacrifice quality matters for the sake of trade regulations. They will be the people who will die/survive inside these vehicles on most fierce conditions of the war against any threat so army always intend to select quality and reliability options. Our guys will try the all chances until It will be understood there is no way to procure the system requested from West. If all attempts fail, then The direction may be changed to other options. That is the example How political and monetary matters effect the course of events in procurement strategy so Countries sometimes forced to purchase inferior options.
> 
> In additions, The replacing the gas turbine engine on an aerial vehicle is not as simple as the one done on a land vehicles. The test, qualification, certification procedure may take a few years more If We want to integrate an Ukrainian engine for Atak helicopters. It is planned that TS-1400 domestic engine will make its maiden flight on T-625 utility helicopters in this year. It is the qualification phase of this engine. When this phase passed, The OK will be given for T-129 Atak helicopters as well but I don't suppose Atak with TS-1400 will be ready before 2022.


I suspect the ATAK with TS1400 will basically be the improved 6-ton variant. To me, it seems Turkey's basically trying to convince the PAA to take the developmental route. So, when the SSB says, 'we hope Pakistan will be satisfied with the progress of the engine...' it has less to do with an actual helicopter (since it will be at least a couple years out), but other stuff, like co-production, collaboration, etc. That's its main play.

Neither the Gov't of Pakistan or any of the HQs are aching for a war. Even when the possibility of a war is thrust upon us, they'll work to diffuse it before it escalates. We saw this exact policy in play after Swift Retort; folks can read a bunch of things, but if there's one fact, this policy is buying us time. So, let's put the restraint to full use by solving underlying problems; let's avoid the compromises and get the stuff that pulls us ahead.

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect the ATAK with TS1400 will basically be the improved 6-ton variant. To me, it seems Turkey's basically trying to convince the PAA to take the developmental route. So, when the SSB says, 'we hope Pakistan will be satisfied with the progress of the engine...' it has less to do with an actual helicopter (since it will be at least a couple years out), but other stuff, like co-production, collaboration, etc. That's its main play.
> 
> Neither the Gov't of Pakistan or any of the HQs are aching for a war. Even when the possibility of a war is thrust upon us, they'll work to diffuse it before it escalates. We saw this exact policy in play after Swift Retort; folks can read a bunch of things, but if there's one fact, this policy is buying us time. So, let's put the restraint to full use by solving underlying problems; let's avoid the compromises and get the stuff that pulls us ahead.




Timing is an important factor to read the actual intention. T-129 Atak has a natural ties with Italy. Turkish top officials openly stated that Turkey wants to own an attack helicopter that will be solely belong to Turkey. In this aspect, It was always on agenda to develop an 6t Atak based on using existing infrastructure. Futhermore, It is for sure that They are planning to catch the time schedule of TS-1400 engine with T-629 attack helicopter. Under the lights of this roadway, It is certainly being evaluated to integrate TS-1400 for T-629 attack helicopter primerily. Besides, The delivery schedule of T-129 Atak is proceeding and T-129 Blk-2 deliveries will be commenced. When Blk-2 is completed, There won't be any need to produce any further helo for Turkish Army in this class and production lines will be seperated for solely T-629 and Atak-2 helicopters If Turkey can't secure a new contract with any foreign costumers. Until today, US blocked almost all attempts of Turkey regarding T-129 Atak with using engine card (Turkmenistan, Philippiness and Pakistan) and I don't suppose their policy will be changed in following period as well. It takes min 2 years to replace LHTEC engine so It is not logical to integrate a domestic engine on an helicopter which Turkish Army won't need any further so The countries that will request T-129 Atak with TS-1400, will have to pay the additional engineering costs of integration efforts. If we consider all these scenarios, We may reach a result like; Domestic engine will constitutively power up T-629 attack and T-625 utility helicopters as you said.

In recent weeks, TAI officially invited Pakistan into 6ton T-625 utility helicopter program. Joining into T-625 would practically mean to joining into production period of 6ton T-629 attack helicopters as well since both are using almost same hydraulic, rotor, transmission, avionics and engine platforms. For some reasons (I don't know the reason), TAI don't want to talk about T-629 project in open platforms. You can not see this program in their webpage yet so I believe TAI is actually trying to convince Pakistan to update the terms of current deal to proceed the way with T-629 attack helicopters instead of T-129. That is the most logical way for me as well.

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## KaiserX

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is assuming the Z-10MEs are good enough. If they aren't, then we'll be back here in 10-15 years spelling out the same issue. Not only that, but the PAA itself said it now wants to "match" the capabilities India's getting with the AH-64E.
> 
> So, already the Z-10ME isn't going solve the issue here because it lacks the payload of the AH-64E (if not more, such as the Apache Guardian's ability to control UAVs, etc). I don't want to double-spend on another type when we could've handled this right from the start by telling the Turks (or Chinese) to add X,Y,Z into their platforms.
> 
> The Turks are in better light to me because they're upfront about offering other goods (e.g., co-production). This is the activity we need to actually support our own industry. And unlike the Chinese, we do have a little more leverage in that our orders do impact economies-of-scale for the Turks, we can exact other gains. For one thing, we pushed the Turks to offer bespoke credit lines (for T129/MILGEM) when they previously had no policy for such; we can take it a few steps further.
> 
> The '30-40 year-old Cobra' point is the cost of not executing a domestic attack helicopter much earlier (or even 10-15 years ago). I know for a fact that folks within the PA and PAF were even bringing the idea to the table (something along the lines of what India did with the Dhruv/LCH, but with China or France -- when such things were put to our table). The PAF and PN sorted it out, it's time for the PA to do the same.



Id rather spend 10-15 years sorting out minor issues than deal with dreams that will never come to fruitation... werent you the same person that had many times suggested PA procure the ATAK and now this new dream helicopter than is atleast a decade off... oh yeah you also suggested using IFVs instead of tanks and even went as far as to suggest the turkish 5th generations fighter and UCAVs when Pakistan is atleast a decade ahead in both technologies compared to the obsolete turks... wonder where this conflict of interest stems from...



Tipu7 said:


> Z10 are not good enough. (still)



Only in your imagination.. Z-10 is still better than those obsolete cobra and simply put we have no better realistic option... dream all you want but an 3rd party western option will continued to be sanctioned as they were the last few 4 decades... try to avoid believing fanboys here

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

KaiserX said:


> Id rather spend 10-15 years sorting out minor issues than deal with dreams that will never come to fruitation... werent you the same person that had many times suggested PA procure the ATAK and now this new dream helicopter than is atleast a decade off... oh yeah you also suggested using IFVs instead of tanks and even went as far as to suggest the turkish 5th generations fighter and UCAVs when Pakistan is atleast a decade ahead in both technologies compared to the obsolete turks... wonder where this conflict of interest stems from...


Okay, first, anyone following my posts would know that everything I suggest is in direction of advancing Pakistan's own industry and its economy. I'd rather we get into agreements that don't result in a net-foreign currency loss -- let's get some hard-currency back via high-value production, maintenance, etc jobs for outside users.

I'd rather we work with countries that want to partner with us (like Turkey, which has been vocal about it), so that we can get workshare in production and R&D. Because the latter two have proven -- time and time again from Western Europe to Turkey to South Korea/Japan -- to help build local defence sectors, especially among the private sector.

Also, this process above actually frees up foreign currency for other expenditures, such as -- among others -- modernizing the Army's tank, artillery, etc, or helping the PAF and PN with their priorities. So, instead of bottling up all hard currency to just one channel (aviation), the Army can leverage USD et. al later for something else.

Second, I keep bringing up the Turks because, unlike every other country, they (plus South Africa and Ukraine) asked to partner with us. There's a potential opportunity there, and we can use it to advance our base instead of being a constant importer. As a work-share/co-production partner, others would rely on us as well, making us integral to their supply chains and operations. The Chinese don't need us for that, but smaller states -- like Turkey, RSA or Ukraine -- actually do, because they need economies-of-scale and co-funding support.

Third, I didn't "suggest using IFVs instead of tanks," I just asked whether it was feasible -- i.e. I asked a question.

Fourth, 'decade out?' It's not, the ones developing said engine are saying it's within 2 years, and that's at the tail-end of the 8-year timeline they set in 2017 (which they're nearing). If anything, it looks the Turks are expediting the TS-1400's development by 2 years.

Fifth, if Pakistan is 'a decade ahead' in drones and next-gen fighters, then why not collaborate and develop your own solutions? Why divert resources from development to importing from the Chinese (or Americans, Europeans, etc)? Why not just continue with the course you've already laid for NGFs/UCAVs to helicopters too?

Sixth, 'minor issues?' If it was just minor issues, the Army would've stuck with the Z-10, and the Chinese wouldn't have spent 18-24 months instituting key improvements. Do you know what those improvements were? They were for high-altitude operations (a key ops environment, the Z-10 as-is just wasn't cutting it), and better dust or sand filtration. That could've been a problem in desert ops. Those aren't "minor issues."

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Okay, first, anyone following my posts would know that everything I suggest is in direction of advancing Pakistan's own industry and its economy. I'd rather we get into agreements that don't result in a net-foreign currency loss -- let's get some hard-currency back via high-value production, maintenance, etc jobs for outside users.
> 
> I'd rather we work with countries that want to partner with us (like Turkey, which has been vocal about it), so that we can get workshare in production and R&D. Because the latter two have proven -- time and time again from Western Europe to Turkey to South Korea/Japan -- to help build local defence sectors, especially among the private sector.
> 
> Also, this process above actually frees up foreign currency for other expenditures, such as -- among others -- modernizing the Army's tank, artillery, etc, or helping the PAF and PN with their priorities. So, instead of bottling up all hard currency to just one channel (aviation), the Army can leverage USD et. al later for something else.
> 
> Second, I keep bringing up the Turks because, unlike every other country, they (plus South Africa and Ukraine) asked to partner with us. There's a potential opportunity there, and we can use it to advance our base instead of being a constant importer. As a work-share/co-production partner, others would rely on us as well, making us integral to their supply chains and operations. The Chinese don't need us for that, but smaller states -- like Turkey, RSA or Ukraine -- actually do, because they need economies-of-scale and co-funding support.
> 
> Third, I didn't "suggest using IFVs instead of tanks," I just asked whether it was feasible -- i.e. I asked a question.
> 
> Fourth, 'decade out?' It's not, the ones developing said engine are saying it's within 2 years, and that's at the tail-end of the 8-year timeline they set in 2017 (which they're nearing). If anything, it looks the Turks are expediting the TS-1400's development by 2 years.
> 
> Fifth, if Pakistan is 'a decade ahead' in drones and next-gen fighters, then why not collaborate and develop your own solutions? Why divert resources from development to importing from the Chinese (or Americans, Europeans, etc)? Why not just continue with the course you've already laid for NGFs/UCAVs to helicopters too?
> 
> Sixth, 'minor issues?' If it was just minor issues, the Army would've stuck with the Z-10, and the Chinese wouldn't have spent 18-24 months instituting key improvements. Do you know what those improvements were? They were for high-altitude operations (a key ops environment, the Z-10 as-is just wasn't cutting it), and better dust or sand filtration. That could've been a problem in desert ops. Those aren't "minor issues."


army has to realize that defense equipment is becoming unaffordable very fast and just buying off the shelf isnt going to work.
than it has to provide jobs for millions of pakistanis, and imports dont do that.

its better that home grown equipment cots twice as long as it employs people.

if HAL builds a chopper or LCA at twice price it isnt bad..because HAL also employs 1000s of people....and yet even at twice the price it will still be cheaper than any import option.

Pakistan will need 100s of helicopters, tanks, tank engines, artillery and vehicles..and it can't just keep importing them. It needs to patner with china(who don't need us and thus wont be an easy negotiation), turkey, ukrain adn south Africa.

so far PAF is playing it smart, but i dont see any other service even trying. PAF decision not to buy J10 and instead just focus on jf17 is comendable ..
*
sooner or later people will start hating the military for spending too much ....*

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

KaiserX said:


> the turkish 5th generations fighter and UCAVs when Pakistan is atleast a decade ahead in both technologies compared to the obsolete turks... wonder where this conflict of interest stems from..



The conversation between you does not concern me in the smallest way, as a result of your inventory and doctrine. But it is really unclear how much someone understands these things, who can do uav with 99% domestic contribution and who have been producing licensed F16 with their engines since 1990s, claiming to be 10 years ahead of a country that has been included in the F35 program for years.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

KaiserX said:


> You have been kicked out of the F-35 program even though your produce parts for it lol that to under complete TOT from the US. Turkey has honestly contributed nill to the F-35 or else it wouldnt have been so easy for the US to kick it out of the program.. hell even the israelis got the F-35 before you guys
> 
> Pakistan has been producing UAVs since the 80s... we have more advnaced UCAVs and have put them to use on the battle field a decade before you did. We have blasted terrorist from afghanistan to india without any losses whereby your UCAVs have been shot like hot cakes in syria and libia.. We have been producing the jf-17 since the early 2000's while you are stuck making sub components of the f-16...
> 
> Our aerospace industry is atleast a decade ahead of yours... turkey cannot even produce ballistic or cruise missiles whereby we have been making those since the 80s... if your wanna include even more advanced tech such as nukes we are a good 40 years ahead of turkey... that is including all the western help you guys received compared to us being sanctioned
> 
> 
> 
> I fail to see what any partnership with the turks has helped us achieve in the last few decades... only issue after issue with them and their weapons have proven to be subpar in both syrian and libia... id rather stick to fully indigionus or work with the chinese



We do everything, not the lower parts of the 2nd F16. And while comparing a 3rd class garbage with a Ukrainian engine with a new radar added to mig 21 with f16, you will first bring destur. These works are not like combining 2 - 3 pieces of china-made litter in your country and saying "Baktar - Shikan". Turkey produces many years of ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. Our ballistic missile is probably still behind, but our cruise missiles are still very far ahead and come with their own engine, with its own native contribution. We do not collect from aliexpress like you. Even the dream that we use in our products (ship systems - land vehicles - atgms - uav - electro optic systems - ew - radar) cannot catch up. Keep crying buddy, they made you sleep a little too much. Do not forget to take the submarine from our country.  

And let's put everything aside, you say "even Israel". It will not take a week for Israel to straighten Pakistan, my friend. I think someone in this forum is boosting someone in dreams too much. The only thing you are good at is Solid and Liquid fuel engines, you are behind Iran. Even if you claim that you are good at rocket science, you are unable even to build an air defense system.




+
We hit more Tank - Sam - Soldiers in Syria, Afghanistan, or in any Indian geography with the systems you call trash, even in your dreams. Also these were made with videos, not with lies that Indians and Pakistani loved.

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## KaiserX

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> We do everything, not the lower parts of the 2nd F16. And while comparing a 3rd class garbage with a Ukrainian engine with a new radar added to mig 21 with f16, you will first bring destur. These works are not like combining 2 - 3 pieces of china-made litter in your country and saying "Baktar - Shikan". Turkey produces many years of ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. Our ballistic missile is probably still behind, but our cruise missiles are still very far ahead and come with their own engine, with its own native contribution. We do not collect from aliexpress like you. Even the dream that we use in our products (ship systems - land vehicles - atgms - uav - electro optic systems - ew - radar) cannot catch up. Keep crying buddy, they made you sleep a little too much. Do not forget to take the submarine from our country.



What a joke. 

Turkey is the only country in the world which managed to have one of the best tanks lepeard 2 be blown to pieces by low grade syrians... your f-16s were shot through the skies by greeks.. your ucavs are shot by hot cakes daily in lybia and syria... you cant even produce simple manpads to protect your troops in syria/lybia were the russians bombed them.

Even simple components such as manpads pakistan has proven to shot down 3 indian aircrats... lets go to higher grade... we produced better tanks ie al khalid which proved itself with insurgents...

Now higher grade tech... jf-17 all you guys have is atak and that to with unreliable american engines 

Missile tech... babur1 babur 2, Raad, countless classes of ballistic missiles... no comparison you are stuck shopping for chinese off the shelf short range missiles lol

You talk about baktar shikan??? funny thing is turks begged us for these to transfer to the muslims in kosovo and they proved themselves in combat...decade later you begged us for some more to give to your allies in syria... once again proved themselves to blow syrian/russian tanks to bits.. if your missiles are sooo good then how come you didnt supply any in both wars???


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

KaiserX said:


> What a joke.
> 
> Turkey is the only country in the world which managed to have one of the best tanks lepeard 2 be blown to pieces by low grade syrians... your f-16s were shot through the skies by greeks.. your ucavs are shot by hot cakes daily in lybia and syria... you cant even produce simple manpads to protect your troops in syria/lybia were the russians bombed them.
> 
> Even simple components such as manpads pakistan has proven to shot down 3 indian aircrats... lets go to higher grade... we produced better tanks ie al khalid which proved itself with insurgents...
> 
> Now higher grade tech... jf-17 all you guys have is atak and that to with unreliable american engines
> 
> Missile tech... babur1 babur 2, Raad, countless classes of ballistic missiles... no comparison you are stuck shopping for chinese off the shelf short range missiles lol
> 
> You talk about baktar shikan??? funny thing is turks begged us for these to transfer to the muslims in kosovo and they proved themselves in combat...decade later you begged us for some more to give to your allies in syria... once again proved themselves to blow syrian/russian tanks to bits.. if your missiles are sooo good then how come you didnt supply any in both wars???



Ahahaha buddy you are really funny. The number of planes we dropped 3 week ago in Syria 1 day is more than you dropped in 20 years. A sorry I didn't count what you fell, right? Ahahaha. Yes. A modified garbage soviet engine is more capable than a mig 21 f16.  I hope you haven't forgotten to buy your modernized F16. For years, we have been broadcasting your anti-missile missiles, which we have not seen any other images except the raad or engine of which you have installed the Chinese engine, with their sea skimming capabilities. (Som-Atmaca) The Ts 1400 Turbine engine is something that the country cannot imagine in its life. The money spent only for metallurgy is more than your country's annual defense R&D budget. We have been producing simple manpads in the nato standard since the 80s, so Roketsan was founded, but it is not your fault that you do not know that you can not hit a fighter plane with the manpad, you are a poor person deceived by empty propaganda for years.



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Probably you need to also partner with Iran...
> 
> By the by, the entire Russian AD, including S300/400, were made dysfunctional as the Asdaidst and Iranian proxy bastards were cut not pieces...



Oh yes, I think some of the bodies we have cut into pieces in Syria, I think, have gone to Pakistan.

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## Tipu7

KaiserX said:


> Only in your imagination.. Z-10 is still better than those obsolete cobra and simply put we have no better realistic option... dream all you want but an 3rd party western option will continued to be sanctioned as they were the last few 4 decades..


Pal, you misunderstood. I have questioned the 'goodness' of Z10 by keeping into perspective the capabilities it delivers with respect to problems it causes during daily operations. It's meant to be compared with AH1Z & T129B, with whom it is competing to replace Cobras, not with Cobras it is meant to replace.

And kindly be respectful in your behavior. Not everyone here is a keyboard warrior copying pasting wiki based information.

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## Sine Nomine

@waz @jaibi @AgNoStiC MuSliM from page 227 to last one,thread needs cleaning and some needful action against,those who are derailing it by trolling.

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## cabatli_53

@The Eagle @waz

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## nomi007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> MS-500V2 would be under-powered for T129. Best to wait for the TS1400.


Best is to go for AH-1Z, if we cancel the T-129 atak deal and choose 30 AH-1Z than chances for 12+ AH-1Zs delivery will more easier


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## The Eagle

No more measuring contest and derailment. Thread topic must remain as per subject and those who can't stick to it, cannot add any thing worthy to discuss, may please remain silent and help us to save from derailment as well as worthless discussion. Few members are now banned from thread and the same action will applied for further violation. Please keep it professional & productive.

Regards,

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## HRK

KaiserX said:


> ..........


enough of you blabbering posts with flambait attitude .....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

KaiserX said:


> I fail to see what any partnership with the turks has helped us achieve in the last few decades... only issue after issue with them and their weapons have proven to be subpar in both syrian and libia... id rather stick to fully indigionus or work with the chinese


We never partnered with the Turks on major programs to know any of that. Sure, it's fine if you're reluctant about their end-applications (e.g., T129), but you can still partner with them to co-develop the critical inputs (such as the engine) that you can re-apply to a totally in-house design, one tailored from the ground-up for Pakistan. 

That said, the PN's MILGEM deal is a good example. When asked to, the Turks modified the design so that it could carry a 16-cell VLS (for SAMs). In addition, the Turks will transfer turnkey ship design and integration knowledge to the NRDI so that Pakistan can design its own corvettes and frigates in the future.

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## xbat

i think PAK factories are busy to manufacture super mushaks for Turkey, any cancellation may effect that program too. by the way when PAK army orders something from china do you guys get off - sets ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> army has to realize that defense equipment is becoming unaffordable very fast and just buying off the shelf isnt going to work.
> than it has to provide jobs for millions of pakistanis, and imports dont do that.
> 
> its better that home grown equipment cots twice as long as it employs people.
> 
> if HAL builds a chopper or LCA at twice price it isnt bad..because HAL also employs 1000s of people....and yet even at twice the price it will still be cheaper than any import option.
> 
> Pakistan will need 100s of helicopters, tanks, tank engines, artillery and vehicles..and it can't just keep importing them. It needs to patner with china(who don't need us and thus wont be an easy negotiation), turkey, ukrain adn south Africa.
> 
> so far PAF is playing it smart, but i dont see any other service even trying. PAF decision not to buy J10 and instead just focus on jf17 is comendable ..
> *
> sooner or later people will start hating the military for spending too much ....*


The PN also switched to the PAF's line of thinking. The MILGEM-J -- while a custom design from Turkey -- will come with turnkey ship design expertise transfer so that Pakistan can design its own frigate-class ships. The fourth ship will be just that, our first joint-frigate program. Likewise, the PN is also taking up the LRMPA program on its own, the subsystem selection, integration, testing, etc will be done in Pakistan.


xbat said:


> i think PAK factories are busy to manufacture super mushaks for Turkey, any cancellation may effect that program too. by the way when PAK army orders something from china do you guys get off - sets ?


Nope. China has zero interest in such a thing.

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## M.AsfandYar

xbat said:


> i think PAK factories are busy to manufacture super mushaks for Turkey, any cancellation may effect that program too. by the way when PAK army orders something from china do you guys get off - sets ?


no


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## xbat

why no?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

xbat said:


> why no?


1. China generally isn't into offsets
2. Our decision makers are lazy about it (even though our procurement policy requires a 15%+ offset).

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## xbat

come on you guys even manufactured ANKA parts!

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## HRK

xbat said:


> by the way when PAK army orders something from china do you guys get off - sets ?


all of our high profile defence deals with China are either TOT licence production or JV
which in those cases proved better than off-set programs

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## xbat

HRK said:


> all of our high profile defence deals with China are either TOT licence production or JV
> which in those cases proved better than off-set programs


i hope 4 destroyers/frigates and 8 subs deals from china are at the same level with those contributions.


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## HRK

xbat said:


> i hope 4 destroyers/frigates and 8 subs deals from china are at the same level with those contributions.


4 submarine are confirmed to be manufactured in Pakistan under TOT, as far as frigates are concern all will be manufactured in China

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> all of our high profile defence deals with China are either TOT licence production or JV
> which in those cases proved better than off-set programs


We pay for the ToT, but it's rarely turnkey because we lack all of the necessary industrial inputs. So the engines or turbines, electronics, etc, will come from China or some other country. In most cases, we're a cut above assembly by manufacturing from imported materials. However, that generally constitutes the minority of our input.

The JF-17 is the exception because it is a genuine joint-venture -- we co-funded the development. We should also applaud for China backing a project it had no need for (J-10, L-15), but the JF-17 is the exception. There is a clear reason why we're not hearing of 'joint-ventures' with China anymore, especially for Project Azm. 

It seems we got some design transfer with the FAC(M) -- KSEW said the FAC(M)-4 was designed domestically and built without outside help. My guess: it was our first take at managing a ship alone without KoMs. 

However, the Hangor SSP doesn't look like it'll go that path -- they'll involve KoMs (per past MoDP reports). But it seems the mini-SSK requirement was to involve greater local input and expertise building.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We pay for the ToT, but it's rarely turnkey because we lack all of the necessary industrial inputs. So the engines or turbines, electronics, etc, will come from China or some other country. In most cases, we're a cut above assembly by manufacturing from imported materials. However, that generally constitutes the minority of our input.
> 
> The JF-17 is the exception because it is a genuine joint-venture -- we co-funded the development. We should also applaud for China backing a project it had no need for (J-10, L-15), but the JF-17 is the exception. There is a clear reason why we're not hearing of 'joint-ventures' with China anymore, especially for Project Azm.
> 
> It seems we got some design transfer with the FAC(M) -- KSEW said the FAC(M)-4 was designed domestically and built without outside help. My guess: it was our first take at managing a ship alone without KoMs.
> 
> However, the Hangor SSP doesn't look like it'll go that path -- they'll involve KoMs (per past MoDP reports). But it seems the mini-SSK requirement was to involve greater local input and expertise building.


Military has to build up industry from ground up with private patnership inculding steel mills and all other related industry by supporting and ensuring a regular demand/supply chain..but military just want off the shelf solutions

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## araz

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> The conversation between you does not concern me in the smallest way, as a result of your inventory and doctrine. But it is really unclear how much someone understands these things, who can do uav with 99% domestic contribution and who have been producing licensed F16 with their engines since 1990s, claiming to be 10 years ahead of a country that has been included in the F35 program for years.


Sorry.
To the best of my knowledge Turkey does not produce the F16 engine. Out of interest what parts if at all does it produce? I am all for appreciating the efforts of our Turkish brothers but the engine issue plagues them as well as the Chinese. My post is one to seek an explanation not start an argument
A

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN also switched to the PAF's line of thinking. The MILGEM-J -- while a custom design from Turkey -- will come with turnkey ship design expertise transfer so that Pakistan can design its own frigate-class ships. The fourth ship will be just that, our first joint-frigate program. Likewise, the PN is also taking up the LRMPA program on its own, the subsystem selection, integration, testing, etc will be done in Pakistan.
> 
> Nope. China has zero interest in such a thing.


Interesting that we are entering key design and manufacturing stage with out a viable special steel industry or any metalurgical research institution ( unless I am unaware). We have previously announced TOT deals which have not translated into much primarily because there was not much to transfer on to. So I hope we dont go down the same route with this one.
On a purely strategic and long term viability issue we need dual use technology as in any industry barring industrial giants like the US, China and the Russians, there is not enough production of material to keep things going. Initial production rates may be kept low for that reason along with adequate manpower development/retention However in the long run we will need "bread and butter" stuff to keep the industry moving during the times of defence related contract dearth. The next question is whether we are looking at reinvesting the money gained from export of defence items in revamping our industrial hubs as well as build viable feeding industry? Whehterh the private sector could be invited into such a complex for basic metallurgical input remains a mute but thought provoking point.
A



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. China generally isn't into offsets
> 2. Our decision makers are lazy about it (even though our procurement policy requires a 15%+ offset).


Or we do not have the relevant industrial base to claim those offsets? Even today we are importing basic building material for JFT as well as marine projects. It maybe because the production base is not large enough for the necessary investment.
A



xbat said:


> i hope 4 destroyers/frigates and 8 subs deals from china are at the same level with those contributions.


Reason for frigates being built in China was lack of capacity at the KSEW.
A

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## War Historian

ziaulislam said:


> army has to realize that defense equipment is becoming unaffordable very fast and just buying off the shelf isnt going to work.
> than it has to provide jobs for millions of pakistanis, and imports dont do that.
> 
> its better that home grown equipment cots twice as long as it employs people.
> 
> if HAL builds a chopper or LCA at twice price it isnt bad..because HAL also employs 1000s of people....and yet even at twice the price it will still be cheaper than any import option.
> 
> Pakistan will need 100s of helicopters, tanks, tank engines, artillery and vehicles..and it can't just keep importing them. It needs to patner with china(who don't need us and thus wont be an easy negotiation), turkey, ukrain adn south Africa.
> 
> so far PAF is playing it smart, but i dont see any other service even trying. PAF decision not to buy J10 and instead just focus on jf17 is comendable ..
> *
> sooner or later people will start hating the military for spending too much ....*


Sir Pakistan govt must take steps in this regard. if they onboard Ukraine on engine research and development that will give them fruitful result. Because in Soviet era Ukrainian developed incredible engineering solutions and they are experts in engine designing after Kazan region of Russia. So in their bad economic time ( and we also not in a good economic situation ) we can ask them to collaborate on new engine for choppers in start. Then if it goes well we can coordinate on jet engine , Tanks and commercial use on trucks and large prime movers. That will give us total independence from any western or eastern black mailing about our military hardware. On software and ECM, EW suits ,SOW we can joint venture with turkey, South Africa and China. Thanks

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## araz

War Historian said:


> Sir Pakistan govt must take steps in this regard. if they onboard Ukraine on engine research and development that will give them fruitful result. Because in Soviet era Ukrainian developed incredible engineering solutions and they are experts in engine designing after Kazan region of Russia. So in their bad economic time ( and we also not in a good economic situation ) we can ask them to collaborate on new engine for choppers in start. Then if it goes well we can coordinate on jet engine , Tanks and commercial use on trucks and large prime movers. That will give us total independence from any western or eastern black mailing about our military hardware. On software and ECM, EW suits ,SOW we can joint venture with turkey, South Africa and China. Thanks


And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
A

To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
A

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
> A
> 
> To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
> A


Just look at what CAC used to do:

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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> Just look at what CAC used to do:
> View attachment 618156


whats this chart is telling ? any idea?


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> whats this chart is telling ? any idea?


I just mean that it is really not so easy to develop the aviation industry.


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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> I just mean that it is really not so easy to develop the aviation industry.


oh ok but i have a question about jf 17 whats tjis chart is telling can you answer it in jf 17 section plz


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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We pay for the ToT, but it's rarely turnkey because we lack all of the necessary industrial inputs.


I agree to your post but we need to accept our industrial limitations as well which you have duly noted as quoted above and because of this our level of absorption of technology is limited, for example even in JF-17 as per Shahid Latif in some areas our engineers accepted limitations of their knowledge and experience therefore we decided to get whole batches of engineers trained and educated in Chinese universities in exclusive technical disciplines.

Another example from the point of view of Electronics/Avionics you know that we use Grifo radars in our F-7 and Mirage jets and have licence to manufacture them but to my surprise I recently come to know that Grifo radar still use Pentium-75 processor which was introduced in early or mid 90s of the last century and now OEM has discontinued it, I don't know we don't want to update it or we don't have the capacity to update it, but the fact is we are still using Grifo with same processor ......

So the point is with China we have a model for the procurement of defence article which give us basic level of capabilities in that domain with flexibility of integration and modification as per our requirement but it is upto increase those capabilities from basic level

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## War Historian

araz said:


> And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
> A
> 
> To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
> A


Ok Sir, Pakistan must keep begging and buying engines for its jets, Tanks, choppers,ships,sub and commercial vehicles from the supernatural American, Chinese, European . now bring turkey into this list also,..
If our top brass keep thinking like this we might achieve this milestone after 100 years or might latter than this.
25 years ago we start Al khalid tank project , now we r looking for Al khalid 2. Al Haider on drawing boards. And need a more than thousand tanks but still you said we do not need in large numbers...
Still we own not a single engine for this tank because we have no will for self reliance, we want our next generation also dependant on others. That's our leadership vision. Now might be some people give me example on indian arjun tank. Please not bring always lower example. Must took some examples from a better ones. Like South Korea, Turkey, China. We are not a league of india. Think bigger , Plan better.put all out efforts than result will surprise every one not the average ones.
A thousand mile long journey start from a step. Thanks.
( I have not targeted you, but a general perception in our decision makers )

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
> A
> 
> To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
> A


Actually there is no demand countries like ukrain are desperate if they dont they will not sell anything anyway.
It is not the 1970s. Noone is buying high tech weapons anyway

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## araz

War Historian said:


> Ok Sir, Pakistan must keep begging and buying engines for its jets, Tanks, choppers,ships,sub and commercial vehicles from the supernatural American, Chinese, European . now bring turkey into this list also,..
> If our top brass keep thinking like this we might achieve this milestone after 100 years or might latter than this.
> 25 years ago we start Al khalid tank project , now we r looking for Al khalid 2. Al Haider on drawing boards. And need a more than thousand tanks but still you said we do not need in large numbers...
> Still we own not a single engine for this tank because we have no will for self reliance, we want our next generation also dependant on others. That's our leadership vision. Now might be some people give me example on indian arjun tank. Please not bring always lower example. Must took some examples from a better ones. Like South Korea, Turkey, China. We are not a league of india. Think bigger , Plan better.put all out efforts than result will surprise every one not the average ones.
> A thousand mile long journey start from a step. Thanks.
> ( I have not targeted you, but a general perception in our decision makers )


Congratulations on turning a post on its head and totally misconstruing what I wrote. Bhai you guys are so stooped in your nationalism that you fail to see the actual picture. Allow me to enlighten you.
A. As a nation we are broke. 100 billion in deficit and having to have bailouts from Tom Dick and Harry to keep from defaulting.
B. It seems that our Govtt in spite of the leadership being honest seems clueless in tackling this mess that we are in. I use the term seems because the press is totally anti government and some of my financially savvy friends who are retired WB officials tell me so.
C. The west and China do not want you to escape their clutches as it suits for them that you remain a buyer and a begger so you can be controlled. So every time anything good happens it is sabotaged from within and outside. It seems the off shore drilling was scuppered for the same reason. Same for Saindak project.
D. You have a morally and financially corrupt polity , brass and public who rely on hand outs to teach their sons/daughters in Unis in US. There is plenty of evidence from Abida Hussain,s accounts of the corruption that goes on in defence circles.
E. The children that study in Pak want to escape the country and take up jobs in US and elsewhere. So a lot of Ex Pat Paks are financial migrants who have looked after their own interests.
F. Those of us who have wanted to go back are actively discouraged denied jobs and even victimised so they return back.
G. Your Unis are run by art works of mediocrity with few exceptions. Those who have gone back have mostly returned. From my friends in Cranfield most of the PAF MSC/PHD students are buttering their bosses to give them jobs in UK.
H. We have no concept of research and most research is plagiarized and copy paste stuff. People who want to make a difference are sent khuday line. One of my near relatives has had 2 fights with his boss over accepting bribes and wanting useless stuff to come into inventory when there are better products being produced in house. He has threatened to resign his post as a Lt Col. He is going to retire in April this year and cant wait to get away from the army.
I. The industrial infrastructure has never recovered from the 70s when it was destroyed by the Idiot Bhutto and the bloody idiot Mubasshir Hassan. And then the corrupt MQM and the bhatta party sending nazrana to Jabba the Hut. Most people have uprooted their industry to Dubai or even Bangladesh. So good luck getting them back.
J. Basic specialized steel plants will send you back any where between 2-5billion. Then you start research and sink another 2-5 billion and get some where only to find some bastard in a uniform demanding a bribe to even see you. In Lahore the standard Nazrana to see a General during Zia times was 100000Rs. Imagine what it is now.
There are so many hurdles you cannot even begin to imagine.
A

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## lcloo

War Historian said:


> Ok Sir, Pakistan must keep begging and buying engines for its jets, Tanks, choppers,ships,sub and commercial vehicles from the supernatural American, Chinese, European . now bring turkey into this list also,..
> If our top brass keep thinking like this we might achieve this milestone after 100 years or might latter than this.
> 25 years ago we start Al khalid tank project , now we r looking for Al khalid 2. Al Haider on drawing boards. And need a more than thousand tanks but still you said we do not need in large numbers...
> Still we own not a single engine for this tank because we have no will for self reliance, we want our next generation also dependant on others. That's our leadership vision. Now might be some people give me example on indian arjun tank. Please not bring always lower example. Must took some examples from a better ones. Like South Korea, Turkey, China. We are not a league of india. Think bigger , Plan better.put all out efforts than result will surprise every one not the average ones.
> A thousand mile long journey start from a step. Thanks.
> ( I have not targeted you, but a general perception in our decision makers )


Making an engine is technically feasible for Pakistan. One way is by TOT, but then this is a licensed engine, not your engine. Or if you will to develop one, you will need to invest hundreds of millions dollars in R & D and factory & tooling set ups, even before your first engine is rolled out.

So it is basically economic factor that you have to consider. And after spending hundreds of million dollars, your engine will have its own costing i.e. cost per engine. At this stage, another economic factor known as *economy of scale* comes in. You will need a certain number of engines to justify your total investment in R & D, production facilities, tooling, human resources training costs etc.

You will need to make and sell thousands of engines otherwise the costs of each engines could come up to many times higher, from 300% to 500% higher than comparable engine in the global market if only 200 to 300 hundred engines are produced..

Do you have the money to spend on this type of luxury expenses?


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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
> A
> 
> To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
> A


Hi just a off topic Q is it not possible for military establishment to churn out money for a military grade LM style something as they are doing in other business sectors like sugar cement etc 
I hope I’m not bothering you with my off topic question 
My thoughts are they have enough budget to start something with Chinese state manufacturing companies and later they can sell these items to GOP
Thank you

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> Actually there is no demand countries like ukrain are desperate if they dont they will not sell anything anyway.
> It is not the 1970s. Noone is buying high tech weapons anyway


Bhai
Where is the money going to come from. Ukraine is having a hard time complying with the Thai order of Oplot tank and you expect them to help you manufacture an engine. If it were so easy Korea and China would have done it. Both are struggling.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Interesting that we are entering key design and manufacturing stage with out a viable special steel industry or any metalurgical research institution ( unless I am unaware). We have previously announced TOT deals which have not translated into much primarily because there was not much to transfer on to. So I hope we dont go down the same route with this one.
> On a purely strategic and long term viability issue we need dual use technology as in any industry barring industrial giants like the US, China and the Russians, there is not enough production of material to keep things going. Initial production rates may be kept low for that reason along with adequate manpower development/retention However in the long run we will need "bread and butter" stuff to keep the industry moving during the times of defence related contract dearth. The next question is whether we are looking at reinvesting the money gained from export of defence items in revamping our industrial hubs as well as build viable feeding industry? Whehterh the private sector could be invited into such a complex for basic metallurgical input remains a mute but thought provoking point.
> A


With the MILGEM-J and LRMPA, the PN is trying to build-up the country's design/engineering and integration expertise. It knows full well that Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near all of the inputs to make a warship on a turnkey basis. However, it can escape from OEM-specified configurations by designing its own solutions and, in turn, sourcing the inputs from whatever sources it wants. So, with a French corvette, you'd probably have to pay for French steel and electronics, which can cost a lot. Likewise for German and British. However, with the Jinnah-class (esp. ship #4), you can pick whatever steel, propulsion, superstructure materials, etc you want, and at least control the pricing a bit more. 

That said, I do think we have enough inherent economies-of-scale to justify some critical inputs, namely steel and superstructure materials. The latter can include composites for ships, land-based vehicles, and -- of course -- rotary and fixed-wing aircraft. 



> Or we do not have the relevant industrial base to claim those offsets? Even today we are importing basic building material for JFT as well as marine projects. It maybe because the production base is not large enough for the necessary investment.
> A
> 
> 
> Reason for frigates being built in China was lack of capacity at the KSEW.
> A


You don't necessarily have to implement offsets on the defence industry directly, at least not in the beginning.

One thing the Germans did, especially in the 1950s/1960s, is that they asked the Americans and British to issue offsets through R&D partnerships with local German companies. Some of it was in defence, others was in auto, medicine, etc. The basic point is that you want some of the hard currency you're spending on an import to come back to your economy (lower the BoP gap) and, with the right policies and oversight, in targeted sectors that you want to develop further. These offsets is what helped create those mega-consortiums (e.g., MBDA) -- because you had sellers reinvest some of the expenditure back in the buyers' countries.

So, for Pakistan, you could have very well tied these big purchases to targeted offsets. You could have told TAI, for example, 'we'd like to start developing critical inputs for aerospace,' and force their hand to invest in R&D (either as a whole TAI subsidiary or a co-owned subsidiary with a private Pakistani company) in Pakistan. This is exactly what the Turks did as well with the Europeans and Americans, which helped create TUSAS/TEI and, with time, spawned into wholly Turkish-owned companies (i.e., from people and businesses that were originally borne from offsets). This is what India is doing today.

You could also take an alternative approach. E.g., in Canada, the offsets were pushed to non-defence industries. So, Pakistan could've asked the OEMs to figure out a way to invest in Pakistan's auto-manufacturing, medicines, pharma, surgical equipment, electronics, etc. In this situation, the OEM would work out a deal with some private investors and let them take lead in FDI in those non-defence sectors. In turn, those sectors grow and generate exports -- i.e., pull hard-currency -- and you can keep importing weapons. In this situation, you're not focused on building a defence industry, but rather, the wider economy so that you can support defence spending.

Ultimately, the key is crafting forward-thinking, comprehensive policies and enforcing oversight into ensuring that the selling side meets its contractual obligations. We know, for a fact, that Pakistan doesn't do either. Yes, money is a constraint, but at the end of the day, whether it's in cash or through a loan, it's your USD/GBP/Euro that are flying out. It's either upfront today or gradually, but it's your money. So, you have to exert leverage. This would result in some OEMs backing away (esp. in US/Europe), but others -- like in Turkey, Ukraine, Brazil, etc -- who do need your business (for scale, prestige, etc) will talk.



HRK said:


> I agree to your post but we need to accept our industrial limitations as well which you have duly noted as quoted above and because of this our level of absorption of technology is limited, for example even in JF-17 as per Shahid Latif in some areas our engineers accepted limitations of their knowledge and experience therefore we decided to get whole batches of engineers trained and educated in Chinese universities in exclusive technical disciplines.
> 
> Another example from the point of view of Electronics/Avionics you know that we use Grifo radars in our F-7 and Mirage jets and have licence to manufacture them but to my surprise I recently come to know that Grifo radar still use Pentium-75 processor which was introduced in early or mid 90s of the last century and now OEM has discontinued it, I don't know we don't want to update it or we don't have the capacity to update it, but the fact is we are still using Grifo with same processor ......
> 
> So the point is with China we have a model for the procurement of defence article which give us basic level of capabilities in that domain with flexibility of integration and modification as per our requirement but it is upto increase those capabilities from basic level


The mistake with the Grifo program is that we bought the 'ToT' to manufacture (or likely assemble it). Instead, we should've tacked a 33% offset in the form of investment in our electronics sector, possibly in semiconductors or at least one higher/less intensive layer (e.g., chip manufacturing?). Sure, that investment alone wouldn't have gotten us there, but it's a huge start that wouldn't have come at the cost of trading an urgent defence need.

The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking is that we're not working to build an actual defence "industry." This is why the 'ToT' sticker is always a factor, but never offsets. With offsets, you probably can't say something like "and we make this radar in Pakistan," in the near-term. It doesn't sound as good, but from an economic standpoint (and there are risks with this too, but again, with controls it can work) you have money flowing into development. India dropped ToT from the MMRCA and got 36 Rafales off-the-shelf with offsets -- those offsets are going to feed into something that'll bite us down the line later.

That 'development' could be the German/Turkish model of nurturing a defence industry, or the Canadian model of your supporting your wider economy (so that you can comfortably afford defence), or a hybrid model like Australia, UK, India, etc of both. For this you need to bind defence procurement with economic policy-making and a well-defined goal. This is the biggest difference between us and Turkey, India, and I daresay now, even UAE and KSA.

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## War Historian

araz said:


> Congratulations on turning a post on its head and totally misconstruing what I wrote. Bhai you guys are so stooped in your nationalism that you fail to see the actual picture. Allow me to enlighten you.
> A. As a nation we are broke. 100 billion in deficit and having to have bailouts from Tom Dick and Harry to keep from defaulting.
> B. It seems that our Govtt in spite of the leadership being honest seems clueless in tackling this mess that we are in. I use the term seems because the press is totally anti government and some of my financially savvy friends who are retired WB officials tell me so.
> C. The west and China do not want you to escape their clutches as it suits for them that you remain a buyer and a begger so you can be controlled. So every time anything good happens it is sabotaged from within and outside. It seems the off shore drilling was scuppered for the same reason. Same for Saindak project.
> D. You have a morrally and financially corrupt polity , brass and public who rely on hand outs to teach their sons/daughters in Unis in US. There is plenty of evidence from Abida Hussain,s accounts of the corruption that goes on in defence circles.
> E. The children that study in Pak want to escape the country and take up jobs in US and elsewhere. So a lot of Ex Pat Paks are financial migrants who have looked after their own interests.
> F. Those of us who have wanted to go back are actively discouraged denied jobs and even victimised so they return back.
> G. Your Unis are run by art works of mediocrity with few exceptions. Those who have gone back have mostly returned. From my friends in Cranfield most of the PAF MSC/PHD students are buttering their bosses to give them jobs in UK.
> H. We have no concept of research and most research is plagiarized and copy paste stuff. People who want to make a difference are sent khuday line. One of my near relatives has had 2 fights with his boss over accepting bribes and wanting useless stuff to come into inventory when there are better products being produced in house. He has threatened to resign his post as a Lt Col. He is going to retire in April this year and cant wait to get away from the army.
> I. The industrial infrastructure has never recovered from the 70s when it was destroyed by the Idiot hutto and the bloody idiot Mubasshir Hassan. And then the corrupt MQM and the bhatta party sending nazrana to Jabba the Hut. Most people have uprooted their industry to Dubai or even Bangladesh. So good luck gettingcthem back.
> J. Basic specialized steel plants will send you back any where between 2-5billion. Then you start research and sink another 2-5 billion and get some where only to find some bastard in a uniform demanding a bribe to even see you. In Lahore the standard Nazrana to see a General during Zia times was 100000Rs. Imagine what it is now.
> There are so many hurdles you cannot even begin to imagine.
> A
> A


Ok Sir , all the hurdles aside. Can we hope any breakthrough in near future from any top brass decides in favour on nation,instrad for their self interest.Thanks



lcloo said:


> Making an engine is technically feasible for Pakistan. One way is by TOT, but then this is a licensed engine, not your engine. Or if you will to develop one, you will need to invest hundreds of millions dollars in R & D and factory & tooling set ups, even before your first engine is rolled out.
> 
> So it is basically economic factor that you have to consider. And after spending hundreds of million dollars, your engine will have its own costing i.e. cost per engine. At this stage, another economic factor known as *economy of scale* comes in. You will need a certain number of engines to justify your total investment in R & D, production facilities, tooling, human resources training costs etc.
> 
> You will need to make and sell thousands of engines otherwise the costs of each engines could come up to many times higher, from 300% to 500% higher than comparable engine in the global market if only 200 to 300 hundred engines are produced..
> 
> Do you have the money to spend on this type of luxury expenses?


No Sir, we don't have any thing for these developments because our top establishment are so scared for personal interests. And they happy with kickbacks and after retirement plans associated with these sanction prone procurement for motherland.thanks



ziaulislam said:


> Actually there is no demand countries like ukrain are desperate if they dont they will not sell anything anyway.
> It is not the 1970s. Noone is buying high tech weapons anyway


Thank you Sir, Ukrainian are desperate for any joint venture even saudi and Qatar govt are making joint venture with them for the light transport and passenger aircraft. Turkey also getting many stuff from them. But we are happy only in buying from them. If they put sanction on us for tank engine we will go to next doorstep for begging because that has become our national occupation.now about the dollars. We have billions spending on new DHA phases in Lahore, Karachi, Gujaranwala,Bhawalpur, Islamabad and many more areas but nothing in our pockets for the national level project. 

Even they can make an arrangement between institute NUST and Fauji Foundation to join hands on development, Nust will research and other will spend money and latter both can be beneficial of that success.

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> With the MILGEM-J and LRMPA, the PN is trying to build-up the country's design/engineering and integration expertise. It knows full well that Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near all of the inputs to make a warship on a turnkey basis. However, it can escape from OEM-specified configurations by designing its own solutions and, in turn, sourcing the inputs from whatever sources it wants. So, with a French corvette, you'd probably have to pay for French steel and electronics, which can cost a lot. Likewise for German and British. However, with the Jinnah-class (esp. ship #4), you can pick whatever steel, propulsion, superstructure materials, etc you want, and at least control the pricing a bit more.
> 
> That said, I do think we have enough inherent economies-of-scale to justify some critical inputs, namely steel and superstructure materials. The latter can include composites for ships, land-based vehicles, and -- of course -- rotary and fixed-wing aircraft.
> 
> 
> You don't necessarily have to implement offsets on the defence industry directly, at least not in the beginning.
> 
> One thing the Germans did, especially in the 1950s/1960s, is that they asked the Americans and British to issue offsets through R&D partnerships with local German companies. Some of it was in defence, others was in auto, medicine, etc. The basic point is that you want some of the hard currency you're spending on an import to come back to your economy (lower the BoP gap) and, with the right policies and oversight, in targeted sectors that you want to develop further. These offsets is what helped create those mega-consortiums (e.g., MBDA) -- because you had sellers reinvest some of the expenditure back in the buyers' countries.
> 
> So, for Pakistan, you could have very well tied these big purchases to targeted offsets. You could have told TAI, for example, 'we'd like to start developing critical inputs for aerospace,' and force their hand to invest in R&D (either as a whole TAI subsidiary or a co-owned subsidiary with a private Pakistani company) in Pakistan. This is exactly what the Turks did as well with the Europeans and Americans, which helped create TUSAS/TEI and, with time, spawned into wholly Turkish-owned companies (i.e., from people and businesses that were originally borne from offsets). This is what India is doing today.
> 
> You could also take an alternative approach. E.g., in Canada, the offsets were pushed to non-defence industries. So, Pakistan could've asked the OEMs to figure out a way to invest in Pakistan's auto-manufacturing, medicines, pharma, surgical equipment, electronics, etc. In this situation, the OEM would work out a deal with some private investors and let them take lead in FDI in those non-defence sectors. In turn, those sectors grow and generate exports -- i.e., pull hard-currency -- and you can keep importing weapons. In this situation, you're not focused on building a defence industry, but rather, the wider economy so that you can support defence spending.
> 
> Ultimately, the key is crafting forward-thinking, comprehensive policies and enforcing oversight into ensuring that the selling side meets its contractual obligations. We know, for a fact, that Pakistan doesn't do either. Yes, money is a constraint, but at the end of the day, whether it's in cash or through a loan, it's your USD/GBP/Euro that are flying out. It's either upfront today or gradually, but it's your money. So, you have to exert leverage. This would result in some OEMs backing away (esp. in US/Europe), but others -- like in Turkey, Ukraine, Brazil, etc -- who do need your business (for scale, prestige, etc) will talk.
> 
> 
> The mistake with the Grifo program is that we bought the 'ToT' to manufacture (or likely assemble it). Instead, we should've tacked a 33% offset in the form of investment in our electronics sector, possibly in semiconductors or at least one higher/less intensive layer (e.g., chip manufacturing?). Sure, that investment alone wouldn't have gotten us there, but it's a huge start that wouldn't have come at the cost of trading an urgent defence need.
> 
> The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking is that we're not working to build an actual defence "industry." This is why the 'ToT' sticker is always a factor, but never offsets. With offsets, you probably can't say something like "and we make this radar in Pakistan," in the near-term. It doesn't sound as good, but from an economic standpoint (and there are risks with this too, but again, with controls it can work) you have money flowing into development. India dropped ToT from the MMRCA and got 36 Rafales off-the-shelf with offsets -- those offsets are going to feed into something that'll bite us down the line later.
> 
> That 'development' could be the German/Turkish model of nurturing a defence industry, or the Canadian model of your supporting your wider economy (so that you can comfortably afford defence), or a hybrid model like Australia, UK, India, etc of both. For this you need to bind defence procurement with economic policy-making and a well-defined goal. This is the biggest difference between us and Turkey, India, and I daresay now, even UAE and KSA.




What Pakistan needs to do is written in these sentences. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) summarized the roadway perfectly. In Turkish model, S. Korea example should be noted as well. Turkish SSB officials visited S. Korean DAPA agency and learned about their strategies/roadways that was envisaged giving incentives/privillages to private companies in complete products-subsystem development. With this way, Turkey has established own unique strategic 5 years defense industry progress plans by considering the pros/minus of Turkish institutes in accordance with technological readiness levels. The fields where Turkish industry was found below the average in tech level was determined and twin programs were commenced to improve the maturity/experience of industry by learning from foreign programs. The project model of first program mostly determined as co-production with giant offset terms while second program commenced with indigenous project model. The technologies/technics learned at first program were simultaneously transfered to second program. (KT-1T/Hurkuş, T-129/T-629/Atak-2, AW-139 offset/T-625 fuselage, T-70/10t utility helicopter program, Gokturk2-1/Imece spy satellite, Turksar-5A-B(coproduction)/Turksat-6A(domestic) ComSat, U-214TN/Milden domestic sub...etc).

Furthermore, When the institutes made some progress, The National contribution obligations were increased at some sectors step by step. This leaded Turkish institutes to carry out more R&D spendings to improve their expertise/product portfolio to reach the targets envisaged by SSB. When a tender was needed to be opened for a foreign product for exm, It was mostly obliged tenderers to accept ToT/offset terms to be given for Turkish institutes.

Apart from that, Turkish institutes sometimes played very serious role to make pressure SSB to commence big and risky programs such as Hisar SAM family. In the field of air defense missiles, SSB behaved timid so commenced programs with co-production project model based on a foreign system. That was a move that was against the general expectation of Turkish institutes in 2000's so Turkish institutes immediately prepared feasibility reports to prove their capabilities and introduced to SSB in order to convince them about their capabilities. The pressure of institutes (Aselsan/Roketsan/Tübitak SAGE/Meteksan) gave positive results and so SSB had to cancel all SAM missile programs in order to re-start them with indigenous project model. At present, The institutes mentioned above is developing one of the biggest SAM missile family (deliveries will commence in this year) even if the programs delay a little bit.

Beside that, Some giant programs (Altay, Firtina, TF-X) commenced with indigenous project model but a foreign institute was selected to provide consultancy service, design partner and/or critical subsystem provider to reduce the risk factor. When indigenous prototypes revealed, The domestification progress were immediately kicked off and the foreign sub-components that were purchased from abroad, replaced with indigenous equivalents step by step while serial production were even proceeding.

The these strategies are being updated even in today and the technological obligations over Turkish institutes are forcing them to carry out more difficult tasks than before at present but the ambitious of institutes are also rising in paralel to difficulty of obligations, when they saw the destructive results of their products in real battlefield environments. This situation actually motivates them to reveal more competitive products. I hope Pakistan will also follow similar footfrints to reach the success in the fields that is seen some defficiency.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> What Pakistan needs to do is written in these sentences. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) summarized the roadway perfectly. In Turkish model, S. Korea example should be noted as well. Turkish SSB officials visited S. Korean DAPA agency and learned about their strategies/roadways that was envisaged giving incentives/privillages to private companies in complete products-subsystem development. With this way, Turkey has established own unique strategic 5 years defense industry progress plans by considering the pros/minus of Turkish institutes in accordance with technological readiness levels. The fields where Turkish industry was found below the average in tech level was determined and twin programs were commenced to improve the maturity/experience of industry by learning from foreign programs. The project model of first program mostly determined as co-production with giant offset terms while second program commenced with indigenous project model. The technologies/technics learned at first program were simultaneously transfered to second program. (KT-1T/Hurkuş, T-129/T-629, AW-139 offset/T-629 fuselage...etc). The obligation of national contribution regulations were increased for Turkish institutes who wants to join into Turkish defence tenders step by step. This leaded Turkish institutes to carry out more R&D spendings to improve their product portfolio to reach the targets envisaged by SSB. When a tender was needed to be opened for a foreign product, It was obliged tenderers to accept ToT/offset terms to be given for Turkish institutes. Turkish institutes sometimes played very serious role to make pressure SSB to commence big and risky programs such as Hisar SAM family. In the field of missiles, SSB behaved timid so commenced programs with co-production project model based on a foreign system but Turkish institutes prepared feasibility reports to prove their capabilities to commence indigenous air defence missile programs. The pressure of institutes gave positive results and SSB had to cancel all SAM missile programs to re-start them with indigenous project model. Some giant programs (Altay, Firtina, TF-X) commenced with indigenous project model but a foreign institute was selected for consultancy service, design partner and needed subsystem provider to close the tech gap. When indigenous prototypes revealed, The domestification progress were immediately kicked off and the sub-components that were purchased from abroad replaced with indigenous equivalents step by step while serial production were proceeding. The strategies are being updated even in todays and the obligations of Turkish institutes are more difficult than before at present (%70 national contribution for example) but the ambitious of Turkish institutes are also rising in paralel to difficulty of tenders, when they saw the destructive results of their products in real battlefield environments. This situation motivates them to reveal more competitive products. I hope Pakistan will also follow similar footfrints to reach the success in the fields that is seen some defficiency.


I agree.

But I think Turks have a good mix of ambition and humility, but in Pakistan, we suffer from a weird mix of fatalism ('we lack all these industries') and over-confidence ('we're a decade ahead of Turkey in drones').

Sometimes you'll see one Pakistani literally claim both things, and it's always -- without fail -- as an excuse over why we don't partner, collaborate, offsets, etc.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

It is an option to leave everything to desire and ability. But they also need money for these.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> It is an option to leave everything to desire and ability. But they also need money for these.


Money is a constraint, but we also misspend money too.

I'm going to pull a @MastanKhan here, but if a young person got $500 a month to kill, they'd likely kill it on leasing a nice car. However, a smart young person would spend at most 50% of that on leasing an OK car (and maybe not drive it as much), and the remainder on a business, and that business could end up making an extra $1,000 a month by the time the first lease is up. Now, the young person has $1,500 a month to kill.

In this example, if it was Pakistan, it'd somehow buy an overpriced Camry trim, and then complain how the neighbour with an A-Class is "wasting his money" without knowing how that person got to their position. 

This you can argue is what happened with the F-16 Block-52+ buy -- it's a great aircraft, but the focus should've just been on buying and upgrading used F-16s to MLU. Reserve the remaining $1.5-2 b on something else.

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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Money is a constraint, but we also misspend money too.
> 
> I'm going to pull a @MastanKhan here, but if a young person got $500 a month to kill, they'd likely kill it on leasing a nice car. However, a smart young person would spend at most 50% of that on leasing an OK car (and maybe not drive it as much), and the remainder on a business, and that business could end up making an extra $1,000 a month by the time the first lease is up. Now, the young person has $1,500 a month to kill.
> 
> In this example, if it was Pakistan, it'd somehow buy an overpriced Camry trim, and then complain how the neighbour with an A-Class is "wasting his money" without knowing how that person got to their position.
> 
> This you can argue is what happened with the F-16 Block-52+ buy -- it's a great aircraft, but the focus should've just been on buying and upgrading used F-16s to MLU. Reserve the remaining $1.5-2 b on something else.



You need a Government that has ambition. Not to be a bystander in International politics. To be involved in creating a world where we aren't pushed to the back and we get a say as much as them (west). That is what Turkey and Qatar are trying to achieve.
To be able to achieve such a goal you need to bolster science and technology (Turkey has been doing this since '74) and create a psyche that supports the idea of building at home with national means. Hence not only are we building weapons. We are also building such things as cars and medical equipment.

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## wulff

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> With the MILGEM-J and LRMPA, the PN is trying to build-up the country's design/engineering and integration expertise. It knows full well that Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near all of the inputs to make a warship on a turnkey basis. However, it can escape from OEM-specified configurations by designing its own solutions and, in turn, sourcing the inputs from whatever sources it wants. So, with a French corvette, you'd probably have to pay for French steel and electronics, which can cost a lot. Likewise for German and British. However, with the Jinnah-class (esp. ship #4), you can pick whatever steel, propulsion, superstructure materials, etc you want, and at least control the pricing a bit more.
> 
> That said, I do think we have enough inherent economies-of-scale to justify some critical inputs, namely steel and superstructure materials. The latter can include composites for ships, land-based vehicles, and -- of course -- rotary and fixed-wing aircraft.
> 
> 
> You don't necessarily have to implement offsets on the defence industry directly, at least not in the beginning.
> 
> One thing the Germans did, especially in the 1950s/1960s, is that they asked the Americans and British to issue offsets through R&D partnerships with local German companies. Some of it was in defence, others was in auto, medicine, etc. The basic point is that you want some of the hard currency you're spending on an import to come back to your economy (lower the BoP gap) and, with the right policies and oversight, in targeted sectors that you want to develop further. These offsets is what helped create those mega-consortiums (e.g., MBDA) -- because you had sellers reinvest some of the expenditure back in the buyers' countries.
> 
> So, for Pakistan, you could have very well tied these big purchases to targeted offsets. You could have told TAI, for example, 'we'd like to start developing critical inputs for aerospace,' and force their hand to invest in R&D (either as a whole TAI subsidiary or a co-owned subsidiary with a private Pakistani company) in Pakistan. This is exactly what the Turks did as well with the Europeans and Americans, which helped create TUSAS/TEI and, with time, spawned into wholly Turkish-owned companies (i.e., from people and businesses that were originally borne from offsets). This is what India is doing today.
> 
> You could also take an alternative approach. E.g., in Canada, the offsets were pushed to non-defence industries. So, Pakistan could've asked the OEMs to figure out a way to invest in Pakistan's auto-manufacturing, medicines, pharma, surgical equipment, electronics, etc. In this situation, the OEM would work out a deal with some private investors and let them take lead in FDI in those non-defence sectors. In turn, those sectors grow and generate exports -- i.e., pull hard-currency -- and you can keep importing weapons. In this situation, you're not focused on building a defence industry, but rather, the wider economy so that you can support defence spending.
> 
> Ultimately, the key is crafting forward-thinking, comprehensive policies and enforcing oversight into ensuring that the selling side meets its contractual obligations. We know, for a fact, that Pakistan doesn't do either. Yes, money is a constraint, but at the end of the day, whether it's in cash or through a loan, it's your USD/GBP/Euro that are flying out. It's either upfront today or gradually, but it's your money. So, you have to exert leverage. This would result in some OEMs backing away (esp. in US/Europe), but others -- like in Turkey, Ukraine, Brazil, etc -- who do need your business (for scale, prestige, etc) will talk.
> 
> 
> The mistake with the Grifo program is that we bought the 'ToT' to manufacture (or likely assemble it). Instead, we should've tacked a 33% offset in the form of investment in our electronics sector, possibly in semiconductors or at least one higher/less intensive layer (e.g., chip manufacturing?). Sure, that investment alone wouldn't have gotten us there, but it's a huge start that wouldn't have come at the cost of trading an urgent defence need.
> 
> The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking is that we're not working to build an actual defence "industry." This is why the 'ToT' sticker is always a factor, but never offsets. With offsets, you probably can't say something like "and we make this radar in Pakistan," in the near-term. It doesn't sound as good, but from an economic standpoint (and there are risks with this too, but again, with controls it can work) you have money flowing into development. India dropped ToT from the MMRCA and got 36 Rafales off-the-shelf with offsets -- those offsets are going to feed into something that'll bite us down the line later.
> 
> That 'development' could be the German/Turkish model of nurturing a defence industry, or the Canadian model of your supporting your wider economy (so that you can comfortably afford defence), or a hybrid model like Australia, UK, India, etc of both. For this you need to bind defence procurement with economic policy-making and a well-defined goal. This is the biggest difference between us and Turkey, India, and I daresay now, even UAE and KSA.





In all my time on this forum, I've never come across a piece of writing as valuable as this one. And i'm being perfectly serious when I say that this one post carries more weight than the entire contents of this forum accumulated over the past two decades.

You talked about "The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking" and I'll try to add a more fundamental dimension to the problem here because it affects every attempt at product development.

I have often thought that decision makers in Pakistanis tend to know what they want, they just don't seem to have a very clear idea of how to get there. And the greatest lesson of our generation they seem to not fathom is that countries only managed to develop a domestic military industry because they had first developed an advanced civilian industrial base, and they only developed that industrial base because they had a world class STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Mathematics) education system.

Imagine the scale of difficulty associated with the nuk program as it would have appeared in the 1960s and 70s and how nobody in their right mind could have believed it could eventually succeed. That was advanced engineering of a scale, albeit in a limited field, that less than 10 countries had achieved. Could it have been possible without the scientists who created the technologies needed in the program? And what they couldn't create they reverse-engineered, and what they couldn't create they acquired from elsewhere and adopted until it could be produced domestically. But none of that would have been even remotely possible without those scientists and engineers. It wasn't done with gobs of cash (they literally raised the cash by begging) but with scientific talent.

Somehow the lesson that should have been driven home from all that has been totally lost and people still believe that it was an arab credit card that Pakistan used for shopping on alibaba dot com. If you have money or powerful allies you can buy stuff like the Gulf states do but you can never create technologies and products. It is the highly trained scientists and engineers you country produces that do. The country's S&T education system is the fundamental building block of every technical advancement. And it should focus fundamentally on driving the development of an advanced and broad industrial base. Only when you have these two, will you be able to grow an advanced defense industry that can innovate and keep up with its rivals. Sadly there is not even a grain of meaningful effort on improving the S&T education system in the country.

This is the one fundamental aspect of the problem that is not being addressed.

Another aspect: Take a country like Turkey. Turkey has been able to develop their own products in the defence space (like the ATAK, the TS-1400 turboshaft and the ATAK-II which are in development) because they have developed an aviation industry bit by bit over the last two or three decades. They weren't just assembling F-16s since the 80s, they were producing sub-components for it and for the civilian airline industry. And they developed the backward linkages that enabled hundreds of small and medium size suppliers to flourish in the country. Now when they start new product development programs, their industry has the technologies already available, and every supplier is coming up with new stuff that is increasingly competitive with the best. They can initiate large scale programs because they now have the industry that can design and build it.

The backward linkages and the domestic supplier base is the other aspect that is also not being addressed in any meaningful way.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wulff said:


> In all my time on this forum, I've never come across a piece of writing as valuable as this one. And i'm being perfectly serious when I say that this one post carries more weight than the entire contents of this forum accumulated over the past two decades.
> 
> You talked about "The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking" and I'll try to add a more fundamental dimension to the problem here because it affects every attempt at product development.
> 
> I have often thought that decision makers in Pakistanis tend to know what they want, they just don't seem to have a very clear idea of how to get there. And the greatest lesson of our generation they seem to not fathom is that countries only managed to develop a domestic military industry because they had first developed an advanced civilian industrial base, and they only developed that industrial base because they had a world class STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Mathematics) education system.
> 
> Imagine the scale of difficulty associated with the nuk program as it would have appeared in the 1960s and 70s and how nobody in their right mind could have believed it could eventually succeed. That was advanced engineering of a scale, albeit in a limited field, that less than 10 countries had achieved. Could it have been possible without the scientists who created the technologies needed in the program? And what they couldn't create they reverse-engineered, and what they couldn't create they acquired from elsewhere and adopted until it could be produced domestically. But none of that would have been even remotely possible without those scientists and engineers. It wasn't done with gobs of cash (they literally raised the cash by begging) but with scientific talent.
> 
> Somehow the lesson that should have been driven home from all that has been totally lost and people still believe that it was an arab credit card that Pakistan used for shopping on alibaba dot com. If you have money or powerful allies you can buy stuff like the Gulf states do but you can never create technologies and products. It is the highly trained scientists and engineers you country produces that do. The country's S&T education system is the fundamental building block of every technical advancement. And it should focus fundamentally on driving the development of an advanced and broad industrial base. Only when you have these two, will you be able to grow an advanced defense industry that can innovate and keep up with its rivals. Sadly there is not even a grain of meaningful effort on improving the S&T education system in the country.
> 
> This is the one fundamental aspect of the problem that is not being addressed.
> 
> Another aspect: Take a country like Turkey. Turkey has been able to develop their own products in the defence space (like the ATAK, the TS-1400 turboshaft and the ATAK-II which are in development) because they have developed an aviation industry bit by bit over the last two or three decades. They weren't just assembling F-16s since the 80s, they were producing sub-components for it and for the civilian airline industry. And they developed the backward linkages that enabled hundreds of small and medium size suppliers to flourish in the country. Now when they start new product development programs, their industry has the technologies already available, and every supplier is coming up with new stuff that is increasingly competitive with the best. They can initiate large scale programs because they now have the industry that can design and build it.
> 
> The backward linkages and the domestic supplier base is the other aspect that is also not being addressed in any meaningful way.


You're 100% correct.

The nuclear weapons program drew its origins from earlier nuclear R&D in Pakistan, especially the scientists who studied in the US and participated in Atoms for Peace.

The unfortunate truth in Pakistan is that there are wrong incentives at every step of the chain. We can ask for more STEM education, but there's always someone around who will mess it up (either by having PhDs in Aerospace teach Grade 5 math), while any gains we make go away to the US, Canada, etc. We can ask for defence industry investment, yet it ends up as a half-job like HIT or POF, which never seem to want to move forward because certain interests will lose.

It's almost as if for every sincere decision-maker in Pakistan, there's a nasty shadow lurking nearby, and it's plotting to screw up the initiative. We had folks beg for a start in gas turbine and engine development in the 1980s/early 1990s (e.g., @messiach ), or folks who tried to even bring a LM manufacturing plant to Pakistan (the business man Liaqut Ali) in the 1940s. 

Each time these types of people tried, there was a babu in the way.

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## cabatli_53



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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Each time these types of people tried, there was a babu in the way.


Truth!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

_[*Preamble:* Babur Han, armed with cannons, matchlocks, Turkic sharp shooters and cavalry etc., was being repeatedly unable to conquer Hindustan - his ultimate objective since his childhood, spent in sleeping under the tress in the Fargana Valley! Then, he broke all of his wine jars and offered two Ra'kat of Namaz for the success of his 6K troops in the up coming battle against Sultan Lodhi's 100K+ forces - now known as the First Battle of Panipat. The rest is history....]_

As for ATAK engines, it’s not only a Pak problem, but also a Turkish problem.* No, Turkey under Reis Erdo'an hasn't sold out Pak in the streets of Lahore/Karachi/Peshevar etc.*!!! This unique opportunity was availed by Pak's very own politicians, civil/military bureaucrats, businessmen, journalists, clerics etc.!!! Hence, no stones are kept unturned to have indigenous engines. Having indigenous engines of all sorts - tank/armored, UAVs, choppers, jets, ships, subs, cruise missiles, rockets etc. - is her top most priority now...

According to the European analysts, as shown in the video below (9:03 onward, 1st video), KALE group, a Turkish company producing engine parts for F-35s, has succeeded in producing the most critical heat resistant engine materials to operate at 2,000C use conditions. A state-of-the-art engine stress test environment to accommodate high temperature and emulate real-life flight conditions has been specifically established to further R&D activities. KALE is working with Rolls-Royce for the indigenous jet engine. Now, these technologies have been transferred to TAI/TUSAS-TEI etc. for producing turbo-prop and turbo-shaft engines. Turbo-props are already under serial production, and are integrated into UAVs like ANKA, AKSUNGUR etc. ANKAs for Tunisia will have indigenous engines. As for turbo-shaft engines (Prototype of TS1400 core is ready, see the slides below) for GOKBEY and ATAK choppers, the projected time-line for serial production is 2021-22...

KALE has already produced KTJ3200 for SOM cruise missiles...

TEI has produced the single-crystal blade for turbojets. And, it has perfected Ni/Ti deposition and casting techniques. At least the half of all the commercial aircrafts, currently flying in the world, has some of the rotating parts from TEI in their engines ...

A journey of a thousand miles start with a single step...

[Only for the _Ehl-i Iman]_A single act of _Hosh Amal_, done with _Iman, Ihlas, Uhuvvet_ etc., has a thousand _Bereket _in it...

The Chinese invented gun powder, and the Turkic folks established three Empires - Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal - using that...










View attachment 622933

View attachment 622936






















​

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## War Historian

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> _[*Preamble:* Babur Han, armed with cannons, matchlocks, Turkic sharp shooters and cavalry etc., was being repeatedly unable to conquer Hindustan - his ultimate objective since his childhood, spent in sleeping under the tress in the Fargana Valley! Then, he broke all of his wine jars and offered two Ra'kat of Namaz for the success of his 6K troops in the up coming battle against Sultan Lodhi's 100K+ forces - now known as the First Battle of Panipat. The rest is history....]_
> 
> As for ATAK engines, it’s not only a Pak problem, but also a Turkish problem.* No, Turkey under Reis Erdo'an hasn't sold out Pak in the streets of Lahore/Karachi/Peshevar etc.*!!! This unique opportunity was availed by Pak's very own politicians, civil/military bureaucrats, businessmen, journalists, clerics etc.!!! Hence, no stones are kept unturned to have indigenous engines. Having indigenous engines of all sorts - tank/armored, UAVs, choppers, jets, ships, subs, cruise missiles, rockets etc. - is her top most priority now...
> 
> According to the European analysts, as shown in the video below (9:03 onward, 1st video), KALE group, a Turkish company producing engine parts for F-35s, has succeeded in producing the most critical heat resistant engine materials to operate at 2,000C use conditions. A state-of-the-art engine stress test environment to accommodate high temperature and emulate real-life flight conditions has been specifically established to further R&D activities. KALE is working with Rolls-Royce for the indigenous jet engine. Now, these technologies have been transferred to TAI/TUSAS-TEI etc. for producing turbo-prop and turbo-shaft engines. Turbo-props are already under serial production, and are integrated into UAVs like ANKA, AKSUNGUR etc. ANKAs for Tunisia will have indigenous engines. As for turbo-shaft engines (Prototype of TS1400 core is ready, see the slides below) for GOKBEY and ATAK choppers, the projected time-line for serial production is 2021-22...
> 
> KALE has already produced KTJ3200 for SOM cruise missiles...
> 
> TEI has produced the single-crystal blade for turbojets. And, it has perfected Ni/Ti deposition and casting techniques. At least the half of all the commercial aircrafts, currently flying in the world, has some of the rotating parts from TEI in their engines ...
> 
> A journey of a thousand miles start with a single step...
> 
> [Only for the _Ehl-i Iman]_A single act of _Hosh Amal_, done with _Iman, Ihlas, Uhuvvet_ etc., has a thousand _Bereket _in it...
> 
> The Chinese invented gun powder, and the Turkic folks established three Empires - Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal - using that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 622938
> 
> View attachment 622933
> 
> View attachment 622936
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Ma Sha Allah, 
May Allah bless Turkey more with its favours, very soon Turkey become truly independent in defence sector. insha'Allah

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## Blacklight

@StormBreaker @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others...

Brothers have a look at the following, when you have time.

https://www.heliopsmag.com/current-issues -----> HELIOPS FRONTLINE Issue 28

Have a look at the following two articles:
*"Stick or Twist"* pg24
_This is about the Australian Defence Forces future Attack helos_

"*Cloning and Honing Super Frelon Copied and Enhanced in China" *pg38

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're 100% correct.
> 
> The nuclear weapons program drew its origins from earlier nuclear R&D in Pakistan, especially the scientists who studied in the US and participated in Atoms for Peace.
> 
> The unfortunate truth in Pakistan is that there are wrong incentives at every step of the chain. We can ask for more STEM education, but there's always someone around who will mess it up (either by having PhDs in Aerospace teach Grade 5 math), while any gains we make go away to the US, Canada, etc. We can ask for defence industry investment, yet it ends up as a half-job like HIT or POF, which never seem to want to move forward because certain interests will lose.
> 
> It's almost as if for every sincere decision-maker in Pakistan, there's a nasty shadow lurking nearby, and it's plotting to screw up the initiative. We had folks beg for a start in gas turbine and engine development in the 1980s/early 1990s (e.g., @messiach ), or folks who tried to even bring a LM manufacturing plant to Pakistan (the business man Liaqut Ali) in the 1940s.
> 
> Each time these types of people tried, there was a babu in the way.


Lack of will..
Ayub khan was told about nuclear weapons that india is building ..his response.."we will buy it when times come" (source; shahab nama) ..that mind set hasnt changed..
Countries with smaller economies (sweden) who were under stress(non nato) developed everything needed as compared to much larger economies

Army basically control much of the country and yet it cant acheieve its core objects..
POF doesnt has a brass factory and is yarning for upgrade..no money.. but PA has money for odd projects like importing old tanks ..

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## Balamir

TAI General Manager Temel Kotil: US engine supply for Atak helicopters to be sold to Pakistan is in final signature. We think we will get the engines. We received additional time from Pakistan.

My personal opinion: America will never allow Turkey to become exporters of the helicopter. They will deliberately hold the signature and will not give the engines. If Pakistan waits, helicopters are delivered with TEI TS-1400 engine. Otherwise, the agreement is terminated.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Balamir said:


> TAI General Manager Temel Kotil: US engine supply for Atak helicopters to be sold to Pakistan is in final signature. We think we will get the engines. We received additional time from Pakistan.
> 
> My personal opinion: America will never allow Turkey to become exporters of the helicopter. They will deliberately hold the signature and will not give the engines. If Pakistan waits, helicopters are delivered with TEI TS-1400 engine. Otherwise, the agreement is terminated.


When did Temel Kotil say this? Is this a recent quote?


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## Balamir

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When did Temel Kotil say this? Is this a recent quote?


This evening local time in Turkey at PM 18: 30 said in a instagram live broadcast. He said it was the first time I had never heard of this before.

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## Kompromat

Can anyone tell me what the current status is?


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## JohnWick

ziaulislam said:


> Lack of will..
> Ayub khan was told about nuclear weapons that india is building ..his response.."we will buy it when times come" (source; shahab nama) ..that mind set hasnt changed..
> Countries with smaller economies (sweden) who were under stress(non nato) developed everything needed as compared to much larger economies
> 
> Army basically control much of the country and yet it cant acheieve its core objects..
> POF doesnt has a brass factory and is yarning for upgrade..no money.. but PA has money for odd projects like importing old tanks ..


Old is gold for PA.


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## IceCold

I think it's high time we close this thread and bow out heads in silence for T129. RIP. We had such high hopes of cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan, seems our confidence was misplaced. We fall for the Americans every single fuckin time whether it's the Zulus that are most probably rotting in some US shed or the T129 with US engines. And thanks God that no F16s were on offer to us otherwise Abbi un ka rona be roo raha hota.

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## -------

Balamir said:


> This evening local time in Turkey at PM 18: 30 said in a instagram live broadcast. He said it was the first time I had never heard of this before.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When did Temel Kotil say this? Is this a recent quote?








To add further to @Balamir; Temel Kotil says that he's hopeful that America will see reason, otherwise TAI will have no choice but to select an alternative engine. The alternative engine is likely the TEI-TS1500, but Temel Kotil does no state what engine only that an alternative engine will be selected.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> Can anyone tell me what the current status is?


PA gave TAI an extended deadline.

If TAI doesn't meet that deadline, then:

PA will either give them time for the TS1400 / T629
OR sign a Z-10ME order

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## PakShaheen79

Balamir said:


> TAI General Manager Temel Kotil: US engine supply for Atak helicopters to be sold to Pakistan is in final signature. We think we will get the engines. We received additional time from Pakistan.
> 
> My personal opinion: *America will never allow Turkey to become exporters of the helicopter. They will deliberately hold the signature and will not give the engines. If Pakistan waits, helicopters are delivered with TEI TS-1400 engine. Otherwise, the agreement is terminated.*



Finally some good news.

As for bold part, I don't think Americans have any choice here especially now when their oil sector has literally crashed and if lock down continues, it will plunge further. Already, many oil purchasing and selling business have bankrupt in the US.

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## Kompromat

I highly doubt Americans will clear the engines for export to Pakistan. Our AH-1Z are rotting in storage and as per recent information, might be exported to another country.

This leaves two options. 

Z-10ME
Mi-28 variant.

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## PakShaheen79

Horus said:


> I highly doubt Americans will clear the engines for export to Pakistan. Our AH-1Z are rotting in storage and as per recent information, might be exported to another country.
> 
> This leaves two options.
> 
> Z-10ME
> Mi-28 variant.



can someone draw a comparison between Z-10ME and ATAK. I think for now we must go far Z-10ME and must give time to Turkish brothers to develop their engine for ATAK. Let's minus Americans and make them pay in form of denying access to CIA in respective countries.

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## Kompromat

AH-1Z were going to be ordered in numbers. Over 48 in total. They would've replaced our old Cobras which have been spent during WOT. Americans are not only selling Apaches to India but also holding our AH-1Z helicopters in storage. That will create a gap.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Horus said:


> AH-1Z were going to be ordered in numbers. Over 48 in total. They would've replaced our old Cobras which have been spent during WOT. Americans are not only selling Apaches to India but also holding our AH-1Z helicopters in storage. That will create a gap.


48 AH1Zs are going to cost in billions of dollars. Also we ordered 30 T129s.
Were we going to have 48 AH1Zs+30 T129s+4Mi35=82 latest Gunships in total?

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Horus said:


> AH-1Z were going to be ordered in numbers. Over 48 in total. They would've replaced our old Cobras which have been spent during WOT. Americans are not only selling Apaches to India but also holding our AH-1Z helicopters in storage. That will create a gap.


Sir sorry to reply to ur comments , but don't u think we should not buy from them ,after what they did to us in 1990s and then to 8 F16s around 2016 , also they check equipment usage plus they are now on India side ( Apaches , P8s e.t.c ) , We should not trust or buy stuff from US , will create problems for us in future i.e spare parts or in case of sanctions e.t.c . Thanks .

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## PakShaheen79

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> 48 AH1Zs are going to cost in billions of dollars. Also we ordered 30 T129s.
> Were we going to have 48 AH1Zs+30 T129s+4Mi35=82 latest Gunships in total?



Horus wrote "were to be ordered" ... clearly hinting time before they were stopped by the Americans.


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## cabatli_53

Mr. Kotil said following as well;

TEI engine will provide 1600shp power for helicopters.
6ton ITAR free Atak will make its first flight in this year, then everybody will see its appearance.
TAI is negotiating with a few countries for partnership on HürJet program.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> PA gave TAI an extended deadline.
> 
> If TAI doesn't meet that deadline, then:
> 
> PA will either give them time for the TS1400 / T629
> OR sign a Z-10ME order




Mass production of T-129 Atak is being proceeded and US allows TAI to use LHTEC engine for helicopters to be delivered for Turkish Forces. The number of T-129 Atak to be delivered will exceed 90 when the mass production completed. In this situation, If Turkey is developing a new ITAR free and better helicopter based on Atak experience by using Turkish transmission, gearboxes, rotor, engine, gun, landing gears, It means Turkey is planning to overcome the obstrucle by revealing an ITAR free attack helicopter in *mainly* export markets because Own requirements have already been filled by T-129 Atak in this class and The number of T-629 to be produced for Turkey will be very limited. In this aspect, I believe Pakistan will receive T-629 helicopters.

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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> 6ton ITAR free Atak will make its first flight in this year, then everybody will see its appearance.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ..... [NOTE: I know this post will have many 'will, should and IF', so bear with me]

I think we should drop T-129 deal altogether and if this 6 ton gunship appears on the given schedule then should test it here in Pakistan as well which hopefully if succeed would provide an alternative to Ah-1Z as well in this case we can say a final goodbye to US gunship as well .....

This will create a sizeable market for new 6 ton variant in Pakistan which _at minimum_ would be around 40-50 gunship which further mean we could negotiate for license manufacturing of certain components as offset hence could lay foundation of helicopter industry in Pakistan .... the very first baby step

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## Haris Ali2140

HRK said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ..... [NOTE: I know this post will have many 'will, should and IF', so bear with me]
> 
> I think we should drop T-129 deal altogether and if this 6 ton gunship appears on the given schedule then should test it here in Pakistan as well which hopefully if succeed would provide an alternative to Ah-1Z as well in this case we can say a final goodbye to US gunship as well .....
> 
> This will create a sizeable market for new 6 ton variant in Pakistan which _at minimum_ would be around 40-50 gunship which further mean we could negotiate for license manufacturing of certain components as offset hence could lay foundation of helicopter industry in Pakistan .... the very first baby set


Not only gunship we also need a lot of transport helis for both army and navy.


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## HRK

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Not only gunship we also need a lot of transport helis for both army and navy.


yaap we can then further involve Turkey for other variants but as of now the need is to decide for that _first baby step_ ....

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## Viper27

Horus said:


> AH-1Z were going to be ordered in numbers. Over 48 in total. They would've replaced our old Cobras which have been spent during WOT. Americans are not only selling Apaches to India but also holding our AH-1Z helicopters in storage. That will create a gap.



Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.

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## Mrc

Viper27 said:


> Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.




Even if you pay full amount upfront, you still will have no delivery and they will slap you with parking charges on top

Its not about money only.. US perceives pakistan as a threat and will not arm you any further

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## HRK

Viper27 said:


> Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.


wrong assumption ... CSF is our own money which we spent from our own defence budget .... so have every right to use that reimbursement money as per our need .....



Mrc said:


> Even if you pay full amount upfront, you still will have no delivery and they will slap you with parking charges on top


exactly refusal to approve second tranche of used F-16 from Jordan indicates in this direction .... we had the need, we had the money and we were ready to purchase but refused ... so there is deliberate attempt by US to create and maintain the certain capability gap b/w India and Pakistan

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## ziaulislam

Viper27 said:


> Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.


Why pay premium for product that can be sanctioned..why not buy from somewhere esle...us products loose their attractivenes to us if sold at premium price

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Mr. Kotil said following as well;
> 
> TEI engine will provide 1600shp power for helicopters.
> 6ton ITAR free Atak will make its first flight in this year, then everybody will see its appearance.
> TAI is negotiating with a few countries for partnership on HürJet program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mass production of T-129 Atak is being proceeded and US allows TAI to use LHTEC engine for helicopters to be delivered for Turkish Forces. The number of T-129 Atak to be delivered will exceed 90 when the mass production completed. In this situation, If Turkey is developing a new ITAR free and better helicopter based on Atak experience by using Turkish transmission, gearboxes, rotor, engine, gun, landing gears, It means Turkey is planning to overcome the obstrucle by revealing an ITAR free attack helicopter in *mainly* export markets because Own requirements have already been filled by T-129 Atak in this class and The number of T-629 to be produced for Turkey will be very limited. In this aspect, I believe Pakistan will receive T-629 helicopters.





HRK said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ..... [NOTE: I know this post will have many 'will, should and IF', so bear with me]
> 
> I think we should drop T-129 deal altogether and if this 6 ton gunship appears on the given schedule then should test it here in Pakistan as well which hopefully if succeed would provide an alternative to Ah-1Z as well in this case we can say a final goodbye to US gunship as well .....
> 
> This will create a sizeable market for new 6 ton variant in Pakistan which _at minimum_ would be around 40-50 gunship which further mean we could negotiate for license manufacturing of certain components as offset hence could lay foundation of helicopter industry in Pakistan .... the very first baby set


I think the PA gave Turkey the one-year window to see the T629 fly before making another move.

Ultimately, the key here is that Turkey invited Pakistan into the T625, which basically means T629 since there's a commonality of engine, transmission and other parts.

Yes, one cost with the T629 is waiting another 2-3 years for test-flights and qualification, but with the potential upside of an non-ITAR helicopter that matches the T129's hot-and-high capabilities and endurance.

Moreover, I wouldn't discount the co-production aspect. TAI will move onto the ATAK-2, so the T629 would remain as largely an export-only program. If the PAA commits to a sufficient number, TAI itself may invest in Pakistan to set-up a manufacturing and final assembly line (with the engine and critical parts coming from Turkey).

With a new and modern platform, and a local industry base to source and support it, the PAA could stagger the procurement timeline to 15-20+ years. Basically, build a large fleet (90-120+) over the long-term.



HRK said:


> yaap we can then further involve Turkey for other variants but as of now the need is to decide for that _first baby step_ ....


If Pakistan can get the industry base to source and support the T629, it would basically have it for the T625 (due to commonality of engine and critical parts).

Going the T625 and T629 route would be similar to India's Rudra/LCH, which was a good idea on their part seeing they have commonality and shared maintenance/logistics infrastructure.

Pakistan can emulate that model and take it a step further by exploring a naval version of the T625 (similar to AW159), i.e., with ASW and AShW capabilities. Use that helicopter for its future frigates and corvettes.

It could be a similar experience to the JF-17 in that you end up with a lot of people who will understand a bit about helicopter manufacturing and design. In turn, you could end up with a private company that tries developing its own lightweight (<4 ton) utility helicopter.

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## Haris Ali2140

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PA gave Turkey the one-year window to see the T629 fly before making another move.
> 
> Ultimately, the key here is that Turkey invited Pakistan into the T625, which basically means T629 since there's a commonality of engine, transmission and other parts.
> 
> Yes, one cost with the T629 is waiting another 2-3 years for test-flights and qualification, but with the potential upside of an non-ITAR helicopter that matches the T129's hot-and-high capabilities and endurance.
> 
> Moreover, I wouldn't discount the co-production aspect. TAI will move onto the ATAK-2, so the T629 would remain as largely an export-only program. If the PAA commits to a sufficient number, TAI itself may invest in Pakistan to set-up a manufacturing and final assembly line (with the engine and critical parts coming from Turkey).
> 
> With a new and modern platform, and a local industry base to source and support it, the PAA could stagger the procurement timeline across 10-15 years. So, in other words, it could build-up a fleet of 90-120 helicopters that can freely operate in any environment in Pakistan. In other words, actually match India's attack helicopter forces in numbers and, to an extent, qualitative capability.
> 
> Finally, the commonality between the T629 and T625 could make the latter more economical as a replacement for the Huey, Alouette III, Bell 412EPs, etc as they age. The PN at least could work on the T625 as the basis of a new ASW/SAR and lightweight AShW helicopter for its frigates and corvettes.


Do you think HurJet can work as Advanced trainer for PAF???
@cabatli_53

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Do you think HurJet can work as Advanced trainer for PAF???


It was offered, but I think the PAF will ultimately go for the L-15B. It's available today with the exact specifications the PAF had asked for (afterburning engine with air-intercept radar). The L-15B is also a proven and affordable bird thanks to its massive economies-of-scale and use in the PLAAF. The PAF can also use its FT-7PG infrastructure and induct the FTC-2000 instead.

The HurJet is simply too close (in cost) to the JF-17. It makes sense as a LIFT for an air force in NATO because NATO operates even more expensive fighters. However, in the PAF's case, it'd be an issue of redundancy. I think in the end we'll see L-15B or FTC-2000.

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## cabatli_53



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## Balamir

Horus said:


> Can anyone tell me what the current status is?


TAI T129 continues production, but can buy engines for helicopters that it will use. I see making it impossible for the engine to Turkey for the United States in Pakistan. The Pakistan in question will not, albeit another country. Turkey's defense exports increasing their market share due to the loss of both the US and European countries are worried because they do not want to be exporters as well as the defense of Turkey.

Can Pakistan wait for the TEI TS1400 engine? Or is the need for an attack helicopter urgent?

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## HAIDER

Balamir said:


> TAI T129 continues production, but can buy engines for helicopters that it will use. I see making it impossible for the engine to Turkey for the United States in Pakistan. The Pakistan in question will not, albeit another country. Turkey's defense exports increasing their market share due to the loss of both the US and European countries are worried because they do not want to be exporters as well as the defense of Turkey.
> 
> Can Pakistan wait for the TEI TS1400 engine? Or is the need for an attack helicopter urgent?


Pakistan will eventually buy T129 , but it need urgently stop gap. Majority Cobra living extended life. Pakistan need to cover 1300 miles of porous border along Afghanistan and attack helicopter is the most effective weapon in that region. Small armed UAV has limitations.

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## Balamir

HAIDER said:


> Pakistan will eventually buy T129 , but it need urgently stop gap. Majority Cobra living extended life. Pakistan need to cover 1300 miles of porous border along Afghanistan and attack helicopter is the most effective weapon in that region. Small armed UAV has limitations.


These trials, which will be integrated into the Atak helicopter until the end of TS-1400 and will be subject to trials, are expected to take 1 year. At best, this engine will be ready for mass production within 2 years.

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## mingle

PAA for stop gap can induct more MI35 until ATAK 2 get into reality.


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## HAIDER

mingle said:


> PAA for stop gap can induct more MI35 until ATAK 2 get into reality.


MI35 is for special ops. But, if i am not wrong Cobra is 20 to 30 minutes reaction time.

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## ali_raza

things r getting settled with americans 
eventually americans will give away engines
zulu r also coming not too far in the future

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Balamir said:


> TAI T129 continues production, but can buy engines for helicopters that it will use. I see making it impossible for the engine to Turkey for the United States in Pakistan. The Pakistan in question will not, albeit another country. Turkey's defense exports increasing their market share due to the loss of both the US and European countries are worried because they do not want to be exporters as well as the defense of Turkey.
> 
> Can Pakistan wait for the TEI TS1400 engine? Or is the need for an attack helicopter urgent?


Pakistan need urgent attack helicopters for Afghanistan border , while India on other hand already received Apache from US , So we need it on both fronts , i don't think Pakistan will wait further . We may see Order for Attack helicopter in June-July or if Covid-19 prevent it from happening then in Nov-Dec 2020 IDEAS exhibition . We in Pakistan are v sad because of 2 Orders got stuck . 1 . AHIZ Viper and 2 . T129 Atak . So China or Russia will get the order i guess if Turkish option not fruitful this year as we have almost nothing . 4 Mi35M are nothing as they are in Special Ops e.t.c role and Cobras are v old and vulnerable .


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## Kompromat

Maybe Pakistan should move over to ATAK-2 program for a heavier copter? @cabatli_53

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## cabatli_53

Horus said:


> Maybe Pakistan should move over to ATAK-2 program for a heavier copter? @cabatli_53



Atak-2 is a heavy attack helicopters and It will take time until Atak-2 get matured. If this was an option, Pakistan must have cancelled the deal but instead, They have postponed the delivery. I believe they are waiting the first flight of ITAR-free Atak called T-629.

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## Kompromat

cabatli_53 said:


> Atak-2 is a heavy attack helicopters and It will take time until Atak-2 get matured. If this was an option, Pakistan must have cancelled the deal but instead, They have postponed the delivery. I believe they are waiting the first flight of ITAR-free Atak called T-629.




What's T-629 and why i haven't heard about it before?

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## princefaisal

Pakistan should wait for the T629 and Atak-II helicopters. Meanwhile more 10-15 Mi-35s should be procured

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> What's T-629 and why i haven't heard about it before?


It's basically the T129 ATAK with Turkey's own engine, transmission and other critical parts, but also bigger at 6 tons instead of 5 tons (i.e. more armour, payload, etc).

Will use the same engine and critical parts as the T625, so there's some commonality too. It was announced not too long ago, but will fly this year.

Clearly, Turkey expedited it to deal with the US engine issue.

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## cabatli_53

Horus said:


> What's T-629 and why i haven't heard about it before?




I don't know what is lying behind this decision but TAI wanted to keep this program a little secret. It was the first time in 2017 SSB told that a 6t attack helicopter to be based on T-129 Atak will be developed but The name was revealed at the end of 2019.

*October 2017:* İsmail Demir stated that "_TAI will develop a six ton attack helicopter using the same powertrain, gearbox and rotors with T-625."

*02 May 2019:* Temel KOTİL; Atak-II will need a new engine and so 3000shp turboshaft engine will be developed indigenously. Atak-2 will have two engine 3000 x 2 : 6000 shp._

*October 2019:* Temel Kotil announced that "_it was being designed a six-ton attack helicopter that would fill the gap between the five-ton T129 ATAK and the upcoming 10-ton ATAK II Heavy Strike helicopter, and its name was identified as T629."_

*April 2020:* Temel Kotil stated that _"We are working on an helicopter that will be more indigenous than Atak helicopters. You know T-129 Ataks were being produced under the licence of Italy. I mean The helicopter that will be solely ours will make its maiden flight in this year."_

*01 Feb 2020*: Temel KOTİL; “_We have 3 years left for the first flight of our Atak 2 heavy class attack helicopter, after which we will finish the test and deliver it.”_

I think T-629 will most probably look very similar to the one staying on right hand side. Left one is Atak-2.

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## Armchair

I wonder why attack helicopter wings don't use the Coanda effect. Would be interesting to see a design that uses it. The model on the right appears to be doing the opposite a bit. That can't be good from an aerodynamics point of view. 
Hope they also rebalance the aircraft so that the dead weight at the tail is not needed. 

Pakistan going with an all new engine sounds uncharacteristic. Never used, never tested. Would it just not be simpler to go with a tried and tested engine from a country other than the United Spates?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> I wonder why attack helicopter wings don't use the Coanda effect. Would be interesting to see a design that uses it. The model on the right appears to be doing the opposite a bit. That can't be good from an aerodynamics point of view.
> Hope they also rebalance the aircraft so that the dead weight at the tail is not needed.
> 
> Pakistan going with an all new engine sounds uncharacteristic. Never used, never tested. Would it just not be simpler to go with a tried and tested engine from a country other than the United Spates?


Is there an alternative engine even available? Basically, it sounds like Safran Group has no interest in working with either Pakistan or Turkey. So, when both are involved? 

The saving grace with the Turkish engine is that it offers security, even though it's new and untested. But the 'untested' argument can only go far -- you cannot move to next-gen systems without new and untested systems and subsystems.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Is there an alternative engine even available? Basically, it sounds like Safran Group has no interest in working with either Pakistan or Turkey. So, when both are involved?
> 
> The saving grace with the Turkish engine is that it offers security, even though it's new and untested. But the 'untested' argument can only go far -- you cannot move to next-gen systems without new and untested systems and subsystems.



That's true. Yet, the new engine doesn't really fit the argument of a next-gen system, its an attempt to create an engine that is on par with the US engine. By a country that has never developed such engines or any real aviation engines. In fact, with little to no past experience of doing so.

Are there alternatives? I don't know, perhaps people with better technical know how can say. But there are engines that seem to be in similar horse power and weight ranges, including Chinese ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZ-9#Performance

Then there is the Russian engine which is somewhat more powerful but heavier (and possibly bulkier). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHTEC_T800

There is also a RR engine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_MTR390

There may also be a Motor Sich option from Ukraine, I was just looking through their website and it appears they have something around that ball park, or could be customized to be closer to that ball park. http://www.motorsich.com/eng/products/aircraft/turboshaft/


Today I woke up and being a somewhat strange person I was looking through Rafale purchases, which brought me to the Qatari air force. Who are apparently looking to retire their Aerospatiale Gazelles. I think this could be interesting, particularly as Kuwait seems to be in a similar spot and the UK has a ton of them.

_Could these be gotten for a minimal amount? _Could they be useful to fill the gap until decent attack helicopters show up?
Quite amazing the number of countries that had these light attack / recce helicopters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aérospatiale_Gazelle

China even had a few but retired them due to perhaps not having access to spares.

While I was having this fun, I found that Italy has some Bell 412s it may be willing to pass on.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> That's true. Yet, the new engine doesn't really fit the argument of a next-gen system, its an attempt to create an engine that is on par with the US engine. By a country that has never developed such engines or any real aviation engines. In fact, with little to no past experience of doing so.
> 
> Are there alternatives? I don't know, perhaps people with better technical know how can say. But there are engines that seem to be in similar horse power and weight ranges, including Chinese ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZ-9#Performance
> 
> Then there is the Russian engine which is somewhat more powerful but heavier (and possibly bulkier). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHTEC_T800
> 
> There is also a RR engine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_MTR390
> 
> There may also be a Motor Sich option from Ukraine, I was just looking through their website and it appears they have something around that ball park, or could be customized to be closer to that ball park. http://www.motorsich.com/eng/products/aircraft/turboshaft/
> 
> 
> Today I woke up and being a somewhat strange person I was looking through Rafale purchases, which brought me to the Qatari air force. Who are apparently looking to retire their Aerospatiale Gazelles. I think this could be interesting, particularly as Kuwait seems to be in a similar spot and the UK has a ton of them.
> 
> _Could these be gotten for a minimal amount? _Could they be useful to fill the gap until decent attack helicopters show up?
> Quite amazing the number of countries that had these light attack / recce helicopters:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aérospatiale_Gazelle
> 
> China even had a few but retired them due to perhaps not having access to spares.
> 
> While I was having this fun, I found that Italy has some Bell 412s it may be willing to pass on.
> 
> View attachment 627340
> 
> 
> View attachment 627341


Though Turkey didn't design an engine of this class before, it did accumulate some experience with manufacturing the technology. Sure, it wasn't turnkey, but there's no way to engage in such work without a technology base to support it, or absorb the OEM's inputs and requirements. This includes the GE F110, GE T700, and as a supply chain contributor for the PW F135.

This work happened across a timespan of several decades, and the result of it -- besides a physical technology base -- was scores of engineers who've gone onto original design work with both Turkey's public and private sector companies.

Turkey's at where Pakistan wants to be in the next 10-15 years.

They're taking that next natural step to make their own engine (TS1400), and while it'll replace an existing US engine, it's a new platform. Even the engine it's trying to replace is a fairly recent, next-gen design (the CTS800 was chosen for use on the ill-fated RAH-66 Commanche). So, if the PA wants to try and emulate the experience it got via the CTS800, then it'll need to take a look at the TS1400.

It can hit the ground hard, and take a few years to teeth out. That is probable, but we'll have to wait and see. If we can credit the Turks for anything, anything at all, it's a fairly decent track record of bringing ambitious projects to fruition in a more than respectable time frame.

That said, the RR engine could in fact be the actual solution to fly with the T629 at first (and meet the PA's requirements). It's possible, but it seems Turkey has opted to throw its eggs in a homegrown solution.

As for the Chinese engine, the PA would probably get the Z-10ME at that point -- the T629 needs to bring what the PA saw in the T129.

However, I think your idea re: Gazelles is excellent. I'm not thrilled about picking up used aircraft (and spending money to support them), rather, it's a good idea for an original heli project in Pakistan. In fact, the design and engine for a helicopter in that class are already available in Ukraine, so with investment, Pakistan can explore it. 

https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...rem-yera-vid-ukroboronpromu-na-idex-2017.html

It would likely need to be heavier (for protection, sensors, better payload, etc), but that is doable as Ukraine has engine designs of its own to sustain it.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Though Turkey didn't design an engine of this class before, it did accumulate some experience with manufacturing the technology. Sure, it wasn't turnkey, but there's no way to engage in such work without a technology base to support it, or absorb the OEM's inputs and requirements. This includes the GE F110, GE T700, and as a supply chain contributor for the PW F135.
> 
> This work happened across a timespan of several decades, and the result of it -- besides a physical technology base -- was scores of engineers who've gone onto original design work with both Turkey's public and private sector companies.
> 
> Turkey's at where Pakistan wants to be in the next 10-15 years.
> 
> They're taking that next natural step to make their own engine (TS1400), and while it'll replace an existing US engine, it's a new platform. Even the engine it's trying to replace is a fairly recent, next-gen design (the CTS800 was chosen for use on the ill-fated RAH-66 Commanche). So, if the PA wants to try and emulate the experience it got via the CTS800, then it'll need to take a look at the TS1400.
> 
> It can hit the ground hard, and take a few years to teeth out. That is probable, but we'll have to wait and see. If we can credit the Turks for anything, anything at all, it's a fairly decent track record of bringing ambitious projects to fruition in a more than respectable time frame.
> 
> That said, the RR engine could in fact be the actual solution to fly with the T629 at first (and meet the PA's requirements). It's possible, but it seems Turkey has opted to throw its eggs in a homegrown solution.
> 
> As for the Chinese engine, the PA would probably get the Z-10ME at that point -- the T629 needs to bring what the PA saw in the T129.
> 
> However, I think your idea re: Gazelles is excellent. I'm not thrilled about picking up used aircraft (and spending money to support them), rather, it's a good idea for an original heli project in Pakistan. In fact, the design and engine for a helicopter in that class are already available in Ukraine, so with investment, Pakistan can explore it.
> 
> https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...rem-yera-vid-ukroboronpromu-na-idex-2017.html
> 
> It would likely need to be heavier (for protection, sensors, better payload, etc), but that is doable as Ukraine has engine designs of its own to sustain it.



At the end of the day, the bottom line still remains that Turkey doesn't have any experience designing such engines. And if a helicopter engine fails, it very often causes deaths not just loss of an aircraft. Not to mention the logistics nightmare. 

I just don't think that makes sense for a country with very minimal resources, that, if a mistake is made, cannot just buy itself out of it. 

Regarding local helicopters, there is just not enough needed units for a local helicopter. _Unless the PA and PN work on a joint project. _However, inter services buys are rare in Pakistan. Forces even choose their own biz jets, etc see ATR vs Saab 2000. Just doesn't make any sense but that is how things work in Pakistan (and many other countries). 

Bottom line is that PA has very few attack helicopters operational while India has a vast lead in quality and quantity. Attack helicopters are going to be vital if a war in Kashmir flares up. _Something has to give. 
_
Be that as it may, has anyone wondered if Italian A-129s are available? Those would be a very nice stop gap measure as they would work well with T-129s.

Quality equipment from European sources have often been a blessing for Pakistan. The M109s are an example of this. In harsh economic times, and a time when the threat of war in Kashmir is real, hard decisions have to be made at the end of the day.

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## Deino

Armchair said:


> At the end of the day, the bottom line still remains that Turkey doesn't have any experience designing such engines. ....




Exactly my point in several threads and I think so far most of the guys I'm in discussion seem to ignore this or take it to much easily: No own engine for the helicopter means simply no deal and the prospect to develop one on their own in that performance class is slightly slim and given the political issues with nearly all European countries that could provide an alternative I'm sure no one would do.
And such wet-dreams to "simply" double the power output of the available ones as proposed in a certain thread last week is simply impossible.

And the same even more is relevant for the TFX, but that's a different story.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> At the end of the day, the bottom line still remains that Turkey doesn't have any experience designing such engines. And if a helicopter engine fails, it very often causes deaths not just loss of an aircraft. Not to mention the logistics nightmare.
> 
> I just don't think that makes sense for a country with very minimal resources, that, if a mistake is made, cannot just buy itself out of it.
> 
> Regarding local helicopters, there is just not enough needed units for a local helicopter. _Unless the PA and PN work on a joint project. _However, inter services buys are rare in Pakistan. Forces even choose their own biz jets, etc see ATR vs Saab 2000. Just doesn't make any sense but that is how things work in Pakistan (and many other countries).
> 
> Bottom line is that PA has very few attack helicopters operational while India has a vast lead in quality and quantity. Attack helicopters are going to be vital if a war in Kashmir flares up. _Something has to give.
> _
> Be that as it may, has anyone wondered if Italian A-129s are available? Those would be a very nice stop gap measure as they would work well with T-129s.
> 
> Quality equipment from European sources have often been a blessing for Pakistan. The M109s are an example of this. In harsh economic times, and a time when the threat of war in Kashmir is real, hard decisions have to be made at the end of the day.





Deino said:


> Exactly my point in several threads and I think so far most of the guys I'm in discussion seem to ignore this or take it to much easily: No own engine for the helicopter means simply no deal and the prospect to develop one on their own in that performance class is slightly slim and given the political issues with nearly all European countries that could provide an alternative I'm sure no one would do.
> And such wet-dreams to "simply" double the power output of the available ones as proposed in a certain thread last week is simply impossible.
> 
> And the same even more is relevant for the TFX, but that's a different story.


You're both probably right. What you say is likelier to come to pass.

But I would still hold off definitive judgment for the actual product in reality.

Let's see how it does -- but a truth is that it would still take some years to certify the quality, you can't make it up without actually operating it for years and accumulating tens of thousands of issue-free hours.

So, the technical inabilities aside (probable, but Turkey seems to think it can overcome those), there's still a time lag to prove reliability -- this is the definitive roadblock.

That said, the attack helicopter 'race' was lost the day India got the LCH. We don't have the fiscal means to match its numbers and quality, even with the Z-10ME. I mean, it'd be a 30-40 (tops) aircraft program, against nearly 200 LCH/AH-64E. Perhaps the Z-19E could be a lower cost equalizer for quantity (with a heavier 9-10-ton type for quality)?

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## Deino

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're both probably right. What you say is likelier to come to pass.
> 
> But I would still hold off definitive judgment for the actual product in reality.
> 
> Let's see how it does -- but a truth is that it would still take some years to certify the quality, you can't make it up without actually operating it for several years and accumulating tens of thousands of issue-free hours.
> 
> So, the technical inabilities aside (probable, but Turkey seems to think it can overcome those), there's still a time lag to prove reliability -- this is the definitive roadblock.




Thanks for your kind reply and I fully agree. My biggest issue is that always I come of with such a critical view or even a conclusion "this is impossible" I'm always turned down as "against-Turkey" but none of the technical reasons or arguments given are replied. 

Therefore You are correct ... let's wait and see but I won't hold my breath.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> Thanks for your kind reply and I fully agree. My biggest issue is that always I come of with such a critical view or even a conclusion "this is impossible" I'm always turned down as "against-Turkey" but none of the technical reasons or arguments given are replied.
> 
> Therefore You are correct ... let's wait and see but I won't hold my breath.


But the Dino in your avatar is so big, surely, there's enough room for oxygen, no?

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## Deino

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But the Dino in your avatar is so big, surely, there's enough room for oxygen, no?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That said, the attack helicopter 'race' was lost the day India got the LCH. We don't have the fiscal means to match its numbers and quality, even with the Z-10ME. But...and it might be a stretch...the Z-19 could be tenable, albeit with slightly lesser capabilities vs LCH.


Its going to be equipped with Nag ATGM too with 20km max range

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## Shabi1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Though Turkey didn't design an engine of this class before, it did accumulate some experience with manufacturing the technology. Sure, it wasn't turnkey, but there's no way to engage in such work without a technology base to support it, or absorb the OEM's inputs and requirements. This includes the GE F110, GE T700, and as a supply chain contributor for the PW F135.
> 
> This work happened across a timespan of several decades, and the result of it -- besides a physical technology base -- was scores of engineers who've gone onto original design work with both Turkey's public and private sector companies.
> 
> Turkey's at where Pakistan wants to be in the next 10-15 years.
> 
> They're taking that next natural step to make their own engine (TS1400), and while it'll replace an existing US engine, it's a new platform. Even the engine it's trying to replace is a fairly recent, next-gen design (the CTS800 was chosen for use on the ill-fated RAH-66 Commanche). So, if the PA wants to try and emulate the experience it got via the CTS800, then it'll need to take a look at the TS1400.
> 
> It can hit the ground hard, and take a few years to teeth out. That is probable, but we'll have to wait and see. If we can credit the Turks for anything, anything at all, it's a fairly decent track record of bringing ambitious projects to fruition in a more than respectable time frame.
> 
> That said, the RR engine could in fact be the actual solution to fly with the T629 at first (and meet the PA's requirements). It's possible, but it seems Turkey has opted to throw its eggs in a homegrown solution.
> 
> As for the Chinese engine, the PA would probably get the Z-10ME at that point -- the T629 needs to bring what the PA saw in the T129.
> 
> However, I think your idea re: Gazelles is excellent. I'm not thrilled about picking up used aircraft (and spending money to support them), rather, it's a good idea for an original heli project in Pakistan. In fact, the design and engine for a helicopter in that class are already available in Ukraine, so with investment, Pakistan can explore it.
> 
> https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...rem-yera-vid-ukroboronpromu-na-idex-2017.html
> 
> It would likely need to be heavier (for protection, sensors, better payload, etc), but that is doable as Ukraine has engine designs of its own to sustain it.


Pakistan's number requirements probably don't justify investment in development in a new type and we don't have export potential for a Gunship because this segment is saturated with options our potential clients might already have access to. In our case buying off the shelf with in the long term transfer of maintenance infrastructure technology is likely cheaper.

The main premise of buying T-129 was its high altitude performance which is largely in part because of it's engines and their reliability as a matured technology.

Now even if Turkey makes a alternate these would have teething problems and no guarantee that performance isn't compromised as compared to US engines. If we go for Z-10MEs it is not a stop gap measure but basically killing off need to buy the T-129. Not having bought Z-10MEs at the moment signals we are waiting for politics to improve and get the T-129s with US engines.

As a stop gap might add we could overhaul our existing AH-1s just as Jordan is getting or acquire additional Mi-35s as there was speculation we could buy upto 20 units in small batches. Does anyone have any idea how the 4 Mi-35s we bought are doing, is PA satisfied?

If Turkey really unable to supply T-129s with same performance capability as was when trialed then we should cancel and go for Z-10MEs. But both being bought together makes no sense.

I personally think as better armed drones being available the need for Gunships would decrease in COIN role and man portable ATGMs are more potent for PA. So PA does have the option to wait this out longer and concentrate on more pressing priorities.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Shabi1 said:


> how the 4 Mi-35s we bought are doing, is PA satisfied?


@PanzerKiel


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shabi1 said:


> Pakistan's number requirements probably don't justify investment in development in a new type and we don't have export potential for a Gunship because this segment is saturated with options our potential clients might already have access to. In our case buying off the shelf with in the long term transfer of maintenance infrastructure technology is likely cheaper.
> 
> The main premise of buying T-129 was its high altitude performance which is largely in part because of it's engines and their reliability as a matured technology.
> 
> Now even if Turkey makes a alternate these would have teething problems and no guarantee that performance isn't compromised as compared to US engines. If we go for Z-10MEs it is not a stop gap measure but basically killing off need to buy the T-129. Not having bought Z-10MEs at the moment signals we are waiting for politics to improve and get the T-129s with US engines.
> 
> As a stop gap might add we could overhaul our existing AH-1s just as Jordan is getting or acquire additional Mi-35s as there was speculation we could buy upto 20 units in small batches. Does anyone have any idea how the 4 Mi-35s we bought are doing, is PA satisfied?
> 
> If Turkey really unable to supply T-129s with same performance capability as was when trialed then we should cancel and go for Z-10MEs. But both being bought together makes no sense.


I agree. It's ATAK or Z-10ME. They're in the same weight and capability class.

I think the PAA wanted to emulate what India is doing, i.e., a 5-6-ton type in larger numbers (Z-10ME or ATAK), and a 8-10-ton type for quality (AH-1Z). The total scope was 45 aircraft -- i.e., 15 AH-1Z and 30 ATAK. 

So, if the PAA opts for Z-10ME, I think the heavyweight is still tenable. If it's not AH-1Z, then the PAA will need an alternative.

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## -------

This is the configuration Pakistan would have received its T-129 PII if problems with the engine export would not have existed.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Combat-Master said:


> This is the configuration Pakistan would have received its T-129 PII if problems with the engine export would not have existed.
> View attachment 627396


Where are the weapons?


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## vi-va

Combat-Master said:


> This is the configuration Pakistan would have received its T-129 PII if problems with the engine export would not have existed.
> View attachment 627396


Don't you think view field blocked by reconnaissance pod?


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## PanzerKiel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> @PanzerKiel



I must say, in some actions where these four participated together, they achieved quite a fame while using their guns and ATGMs.

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## cabatli_53

Similar to CTS-800, Turkey has developed TEI-TS-1500 turboshaft engine to integrate both civilian and military helicopters so Domestic engine will receive EASA certification after Engine will be tested on most difficult conditions and emergency situations to prove its maturity. Later, This engine will be allowed to be integrated on civilian helicopters (T-625 civilian variant). It will take 2 years.

TEI-TS-1500 (1600shp class) will be delivered to TAI in Q3/4 of this year and first flight of this engine with T-625 will be done in this year. From 2020 Q3/4 to 2021 Q3/4, this engine will be under the engineering test phase. Performance of this engine at high/hot conditions will be noted, thrust ratio in different altitudes will be checked, FADEC will be updated If It is needed... later, Engine will be ready for operations (2021) in military helicopters T-629. After EASA were taken by 2023, Civilian T-625 variants will be promoted.

T-625 Civilian variant interior

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## -------

viva_zhao said:


> Don't you think view field blocked by reconnaissance pod?



If it were an issue they would have ironed it out during the prototype phase.


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## vi-va

Combat-Master said:


> If it were an issue they would have ironed it out during the prototype phase.


Maneuverability is essential for attack helicopter, I do see some problem when angle changed.




This is Z-10 maneuverability 





This is Z-10 POV

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## cabatli_53

In addition, According to information from TEI manager, Turbine of TEI-TS-1500 have an overhaul period around 2500TAC at prototypes. Thanks to extensive R&D activities and metalurgical advancements on some ongoing programs, This period will be improved up to 5000TAC in serial production phase. This figure (If reached) will be impressive in many aspect. When I introduced the overhaul periods of Russian and European gas turbine engines, You will understand the tech level of the related countries in ters of metallurgy field.


TBO :

AL-41F1S Russian Su-35 engine: 1500h 
AL-31F Russian Su-27/30 engines: 1000h 
Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600h
RD-33 : 300h (Each 50h critical component check)
EJ-200 engine: 1700h 
M-88-2 engine: 1600h

*TEI-TS-1500: *

*2500 TAC figure at prototypes ( 2-2,5 TAC considered to be 1h flight period) equals to 1000+ overhaul period. Turkey reached/overtook Russian AL-41/31 series in terms of metallurgy at turbine blades. *
*5000TAC equals to 2000+ hours overhaul period. That means Turkey will come/overtook to the level where US has reached with their F110-GE-129 SLEP at 4639 TAC figure (1855h) in 2003/2004. Today, US PW F135 engines has 3760h overhaul period which is the leader in this field.*

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## T-123456

cabatli_53 said:


> In addition, According to information from TEI manager, Turbine of TEI-TS-1500 have an overhaul period around 2500TAC at prototypes. Thanks to extensive R&D activities and metalurgical advancements on some ongoing programs, This period will be improved up to 5000TAC in serial production phase. This figure (If reached) will be impressive in many aspect. When I introduced the overhaul periods of Russian and European gas turbine engines, You will understand the tech level of metallurgy the related countries reached.
> 
> 
> MTBO ( Mean time between overhaul):
> 
> AL-41F1S Russian Su-35 engine: 1000h
> AL-31F Russian Su-27/30 engines: 1000h
> Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600h
> RD-33 : 300h (Each 50h critical component check)
> EJ-200 engine: 1700h
> M-88-2 engine: 1600h
> 
> *TEI-TS-1500: *
> 
> *2500 TAC figure at prototypes ( 2-2,5 TAC considered to be 1h flight period) equals to 1000+ overhaul period. Turkey reached/overtook Russian AL-41/31 series in terms of metallurgy at turbine blades. *
> *5000TAC equals to 2000+ hours overhaul period. That means Turkey will come/overtook to the level where US has reached with their F110-GE-129 SLEP at 4639 TAC figure (1855h) in 2003/2004. Today, US PW F135 engines has 3760h overall period which is the leader in this field.*


Bro,when is the engine ready?


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## cabatli_53

T-123456 said:


> Bro,when is the engine ready?




This year bro ! 1 year for engineering tests and T-629 will be ready for operations in 2021.

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## T-123456

cabatli_53 said:


> This year bro ! 1 year for engineering tests and T-629 will be ready for operations in 2021.


So,Pakistan will get the T-129s starting 2021 or later?

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## cabatli_53

T-123456 said:


> So,Pakistan will get the T-129s starting 2021 or later?




We will see. I don't know what will happen. You know Just predictions.

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## vi-va

cabatli_53 said:


> In addition, According to information from TEI manager, Turbine of TEI-TS-1500 have an overhaul period around 2500TAC at prototypes. Thanks to extensive R&D activities and metalurgical advancements on some ongoing programs, This period will be improved up to 5000TAC in serial production phase. This figure (If reached) will be impressive in many aspect. When I introduced the overhaul periods of Russian and European gas turbine engines, You will understand the tech level of the related countries in ters of metallurgy field.
> 
> 
> MTBO ( Mean time between overhaul):
> 
> AL-41F1S Russian Su-35 engine: 1000h
> AL-31F Russian Su-27/30 engines: 1000h
> Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600h
> RD-33 : 300h (Each 50h critical component check)
> EJ-200 engine: 1700h
> M-88-2 engine: 1600h
> 
> *TEI-TS-1500: *
> 
> *2500 TAC figure at prototypes ( 2-2,5 TAC considered to be 1h flight period) equals to 1000+ overhaul period. Turkey reached/overtook Russian AL-41/31 series in terms of metallurgy at turbine blades. *
> *5000TAC equals to 2000+ hours overhaul period. That means Turkey will come/overtook to the level where US has reached with their F110-GE-129 SLEP at 4639 TAC figure (1855h) in 2003/2004. Today, US PW F135 engines has 3760h overhaul period which is the leader in this field.*



Prototype is prototype. The real overhaul hour after mass production and deployment is the number count.
Also it's not professional to compare Turboshaft Engine with turbofan engines.
The data of overhaul hours of turbofan engines is so outdated. AL-31F is 1500 hours 13 years ago.(TBO, not Mean time between overhaul)
https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
Salyut-produced AL-31 powerplants are now qualified for a 1,500h time between overhauls (TBO) in 2007.

I don't want to slander anyone, but sorry to say Turkey is quite new to Engine. Turkey need at least decades to catch up.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

viva_zhao said:


> Prototype is prototype. The real overhaul hour after mass production and deployment is the number count.
> Also it's not professional to compare Turboshaft Engine with turbofan engines.
> The data of overhaul hours of turbofan engines is so outdated. AL-31F is 1500 hours 13 years ago.(TBO, not Mean time between overhaul)
> https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
> Salyut-produced AL-31 powerplants are now qualified for a 1,500h time between overhauls (TBO) in 2007.
> 
> I don't want to slander anyone, but sorry to say Turkey is quite new to Engine. Turkey need at least decades to catch up.


Morning shows the day....

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step...

Many a top engineer in the Turkish defense industries has had work experience at the R&D organizations of top Western defense companies, thanks to her NATO membership. For example, TEI Chief worked at GE’s Jet Engine R&D department for 10 years after earning his PhD from the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. When he was offered to work at a top secret NASA project, he immediately left for Turkey....

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're both probably right. What you say is likelier to come to pass.
> 
> But I would still hold off definitive judgment for the actual product in reality.
> 
> Let's see how it does -- but a truth is that it would still take some years to certify the quality, you can't make it up without actually operating it for years and accumulating tens of thousands of issue-free hours.
> 
> So, the technical inabilities aside (probable, but Turkey seems to think it can overcome those), there's still a time lag to prove reliability -- this is the definitive roadblock.
> 
> That said, the attack helicopter 'race' was lost the day India got the LCH. We don't have the fiscal means to match its numbers and quality, even with the Z-10ME. I mean, it'd be a 30-40 (tops) aircraft program, against nearly 200 LCH/AH-64E. Perhaps the Z-19E could be a lower cost equalizer for quantity (with a heavier 9-10-ton type for quality)?




Yes, I feel you on Pak military losing the numbers game here. The tables have been turned and they have the helicopter JF-17 and we have the dud LCA.

Even if (which is of very little chance) our Turkish Muslim brothers do manage to make the engine, how will the engine perform? If you are familiar with turbo fan / turbo prop / turbo shaft engines, they have very difficult maintenance issues. A lot of it takes decades for an experienced company to sort out. These issues are the greatest with high metallurgical requirements of heat exposed parts. And the replacement of such parts is an incredible cost and pain. 

The solution to the strategic quandry of numbers is perhaps to buy the rights of the Z-19 / z-9 and produce them in large numbers. That would be a conventional linear solution. 

My out of the box solution would be to go for mass production of fixed wing CAS, which would turn the tables somewhat asymmetrically on the Indians. My own research of 15 odd years indicates this is possible at a cost of $1 million to @4 million USD per piece. 

If you combine this with import of smaller numbers of attack helicopters, you have a perfect combination. Attack helos for the mountaineous north, and fixed wing for the plains and desert regions. 

Could you import large numbers of Aerospatiale Gazelles and create a Mirage program out of them? Would be a very low cost way to match Indian numbers. Doesn't have to be the Gazelle but any helicopter the PA chooses. I think the Mirage route here is begging to be played. It would build the industrial base for a future JF-17 program equivalent for helicopters. Could the South Africans help upgrade and redefine the fully overhauled Gazelles? I think so... 

Here are some off-the-shelf solutions for fixed wing: 

1. OV-10 Broncos (US may give these retired airframes up for free)
2. Italian AMX (Italians are willing to sell. About 30 are available and possibly very reasonable)
3. Old A-1 Skyraiders were refurbished and brought into service in the US during Vietnam. A ton of these are available and would cost pennies to the dollar. refurbishing these radial engined aircraft is a very low tech affair but these aircraft are beasts, despite their age, a bit like B-52s https://www.militarytimes.com/off-d...-place-in-the-hearts-of-us-troops-in-vietnam/
See also https://article107news.com/air-force-joke-turns-tide-afghan-war/
4. F-7PG or J-7Gs from China
5. Soon to be retired / already being phased out PLAAF CJ-6s could be converted to the lowest cost (and lowest capability) solution.

@Deino would find these solutions amusing and would probably nod to the Z-19 local production option

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## cabatli_53

viva_zhao said:


> Prototype is prototype. The real overhaul hour after mass production and deployment is the number count.
> Also it's not professional to compare Turboshaft Engine with turbofan engines.
> The data of overhaul hours of turbofan engines is so outdated. AL-31F is 1500 hours 13 years ago.(TBO, not Mean time between overhaul)
> https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
> Salyut-produced AL-31 powerplants are now qualified for a 1,500h time between overhauls (TBO) in 2007.
> 
> I don't want to slander anyone, but sorry to say Turkey is quite new to Engine. Turkey need at least decades to catch up.



The figures would need some update If they are really outdated but I received most figures from Wiki articles and Wiki revealed own figures by showing/quoting a source from 2008. At most idealistic scenarios, The Russian Al-31/41 series have a TBO around 1000-1500h and overall life time around 3000-4000h. In this source, It is stated that AL-41F(improved version of AL-31) has 1500h TBO and 4000h lifetime for exm. The Russian latest engines reach these figures in best scenarios. If We let the figures talk louder than our biasses, It seems Russian metallurgy lack behind than European engines developed around 20-25 years ago.

About Turkey, It is true that We are new in this field but We have qualified engineers transfered from abroad. Turkish institutes have great experiences and knowledge on some European and especially US engine programs. TEI itself is producing %70 of GE T700 (2000shp) turboshaft engines at present. 2500TAC equal to a figure around min 1000h TBO and Acc to TEI manager TEI TS-1500 will have *min.* 2500TAC but In final, We expect to reach 5000TAC in turbine core so serious investments have been done for metalurgy projects, especially on nickel coating, titanium alloy and blade cooling technologies. Indeed, We will see whether these figures will be reached. What TEI engineers are doing is pushing the limits of turbine blades (non-stop) at very high rpm figures while internal temperature of turbine is reaching 1700-1800 degrees on labratory scale. They have a trial roadway and they are following the steps in according to NATO standarts. If they didn't have anything worth to mention in their hands, They wouldn't have talked in that way with safe speeches about life of their turbine blades.

That's the sections that TEI reached knowledge on production processes. 01/2014, Red dots were the sections that TEI didn’t have capability to produce in 2014. All defficiencies have been closed with new manufacturing technics within 3 years.

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## capricorn5192

cabatli_53 said:


> This year bro ! 1 year for engineering tests and T-629 will be ready for operations in 2021.


but it will also be tested it field?


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## T-123456

capricorn5192 said:


> but it will also be tested it field?


Yes,all tests will be done.

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## cabatli_53

Heavy class attack helicopter

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## ÇölKaplanı

T-129 simulator


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

----------------------------------


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## airmarshal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Turks have a good mix of ambition and humility



There you said it! Turks are a great nation and they think like an independent nation. We dont.

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## ÇölKaplanı

airmarshal said:


> There you said it! Turks are a great nation and they think like an independent nation. We dont.


Surely you Pakistani brothers have it in your blood too. All it takes is a spark and some ambition...

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## vi-va

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Morning shows the day....
> 
> The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step...
> 
> Many a top engineer in the Turkish defense industries has had work experience at the R&D organizations of top Western defense companies, thanks to her NATO membership. For example, TEI Chief worked at GE’s Jet Engine R&D department for 10 years after earning his PhD from the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. When he was offered to work at a top secret NASA project, he immediately left for Turkey....


@*cabatli_53*
I agree, totally. Congratulation to Turkey and many other countries who can develop themselves. It's a single step for Turkey, and I agree it's a big step. As long as keep investing on this project R&D, I believe the heir of Ottoman won't disappoint your people.
For any countries who can make significant advanced weapon system, it's a great achievement. Cheers!

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## Armchair

It's a "Hail Mary" scenario for Turkey to field an attack helicopter in 1 year with an engine it will develop from no prior experience. This isn't likely to see the light of day.

Which is actually a good thing for 1.5 billion USD, a huge sum of money. One can think of doing a million other things with that money. If I were the COAS, this is what I would push:

1. The ultimate CAS aircraft in the world, designed over 10 years of testing in Afghanistan. 




The aircraft is so rugged that it can operate from fields and can be maintained by a farmer with basic tools. The Su-25 right now is being sold for insanely low prices. Recent sales figures show each aircraft going for less than a million dollars.

The aircraft manufacturing plant in Georgia that builds these is sitting idle and has recently been privatized. Due to differences with Russia, they have shut down the plant. Tooling would be easy and cheap to acquire.

There are hundreds of airframes available that are mothballed. Across both Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

200 units of these with full MRO facilities and upgraded electronics, munitions and sensors would completely change the face of the Pakistan Army Aviation.

Let us imagine the cost of each unit is $2 million (with overhaul and upgrade). For $400 million you have an entire air force of these.

Now, what to do with the $1.1 billion left?

To keep pilots proficient and to create a second tier we buy 200 CJ-6s. We don't want to use the Su-25 intensely. Instead, the pilots will keep the vast majority of their flight hours from flying CJ-6s. This will save a ton of money on jet fuel and maintenance of the Su-25s. In a combination of simulators and CJ-6s, actual hours on the Su-25 could be reduced perhaps to 20-40 hours a year. 





The CJ-6s could also be armed with MAM-L and Brimstone type munitions with a laser target designator and night vision, allowing them to play a support role for the PAA, as well as a recce role. 

I have no idea how much CJ-6s cost but I would imagine they would be incredibly cheap as the Chinese are retiring these planes. They are old, all metal and have a radial engine. Meaning they can be rebuilt a million times at the least possible cost, and are incredibly cheap to keep operational.

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## princefaisal

cabatli_53 said:


> Heavy class attack helicopter


Will be top of the line.

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## cabatli_53

viva_zhao said:


> @*cabatli_53*
> I agree, totally. Congratulation to Turkey and many other countries who can develop themselves. It's a single step for Turkey, and I agree it's a big step. As long as keep investing on this project R&D, I believe the heir of Ottoman won't disappoint your people.
> For any countries who can make significant advanced weapon system, it's a great achievement. Cheers!




One thing to talk is that engines have already been creating a grey zone between costumers and Turkish institutes so Turkish industry has established a strong and ambitious roadway to close this huge gap for our products.

Complete TS-1500 design





You know Gas turbine engine cores can be converted into other kinds to be integrated on fixed wing platforms. The most important thing to do is to develop a reliable and matured turbine core to proceed in this way. TEI gave the first signals of it in defence fair.






~58/60cm diameter class gas turbine engine TEI TS-1500: ~1600shp. When core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, Turbofan using TS-1500 core will generate a dry power up to 9000/9500lbf.

I suppose TS-3000 (3000shp) turboshaft engine is being developed with a 70cm diameter core turbine. When more powerful core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, It will generate a power up to 16500lbf. Afterburners will boost the thrust ratio up to 20000lbf level.

Take a look at core diameters of proven US and European engines !

TurboMeca M88-4E (69,5cm inlet diameter): 20000lb (planned)
F404-GE-102 (71cm diameter): 18000lbf
F404-IN20 (71cm diameter): 19000lbf
EJ-200 (80cm diameter): 20000lbf
TEI is seriously investing on national 9 stage compressor designs and proved their capabilities in labratory scale. All these are the other signals paving the way for larger national turbofan engines.







Other field that require less powerful and lighter gas turbine engines are the drones. Turkish authority has charged Bayraktar institute as sole source of drones and they are working on nezt generation drones (Akinci, MIUS) to be powered with turbofan and turboprop engines. In order to meet the power requirements of drones, Baykar institute formed a big joint venture called BlackSea Shield with Ukrainian MotorSich to develop turbine engines for next gen drones. First engine this JV institute is going to reveal will be a turboprop called AL-450T (750hp). This engine is based on Al-450 (450hp) turboprop that are used on Akinci drone prototypes at present. IP rights of AL-450T will belong to Blacksea shield. Armed Akinci will carry 2x AL-450T(750x2: 1500hp) in future.

MIUS (Jet powered unmanned fighter aircraft) program will be powered with Al-25TLT turbofan engine. (T) refers Turkish variant of engine so It is predicted that It will be more powerful than original variant (3790lb thrust) because original variant can’t give satisfactory results to accelerate 6/6,5t drone fuselage into 900km/h on air. This engine is also expected to be manufactured by JV institute called Blacksea Shield in Turkey.

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## vi-va

cabatli_53 said:


> One thing to talk is that engines have already been creating a grey zone between costumers and Turkish institutes so Turkish industry has established a strong and ambitious roadway to close this huge gap for our products.
> 
> Complete TS-1500 design
> View attachment 627653
> 
> 
> You know Gas turbine engine cores can be converted into other kinds to be integrated on fixed wing platforms. The most important thing to do is to develop a reliable and matured turbine core to proceed in this way. TEI gave the first signals of it in defence fair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~58/60cm diameter class gas turbine engine TEI TS-1500: ~1600shp. When core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, Turbofan using TS-1500 core will generate a dry power up to 9000/9500lbf.
> 
> I suppose TS-3000 (3000shp) turboshaft engine is being developed with a 70cm diameter core turbine. When more powerful core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, It will generate a power up to 16500lbf. Afterburners will boost the thrust ratio up to 20000lbf level.
> 
> Take a look at core diameters of proven US and European engines !
> 
> TurboMeca M88-4E (69,5cm inlet diameter): 20000lb (planned)
> F404-GE-102 (71cm diameter): 18000lbf
> F404-IN20 (71cm diameter): 19000lbf
> EJ-200 (80cm diameter): 20000lbf
> TEI is seriously investing on national 9 stage compressor designs and proved their capabilities in labratory scale. All these are the other signals paving the way for larger national turbofan engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other field that require less powerful and lighter gas turbine engines are the drones. Turkish authority has charged Bayraktar institute as sole source of drones and they are working on nezt generation drones (Akinci, MIUS) to be powered with turbofan and turboprop engines. In order to meet the power requirements of drones, Baykar institute formed a big joint venture called BlackSea Shield with Ukrainian MotorSich to develop turbine engines for next gen drones. First engine this JV institute is going to reveal will be a turboprop called AL-450T (750hp). This engine is based on Al-450 (450hp) turboprop that are used on Akinci drone prototypes at present. IP rights of AL-450T will belong to Blacksea shield. Armed Akinci will carry 2x AL-450T(750x2: 1500hp) in future.
> 
> MIUS (Jet powered unmanned fighter aircraft) program will be powered with Al-25TLT turbofan engine. (T) refers Turkish variant of engine so It is predicted that It will be more powerful than original variant (3790lb thrust) because original variant can’t give satisfactory results to accelerate 6/6,5t drone fuselage into 900km/h on air. This engine is also expected to be manufactured by JV institute called Blacksea Shield in Turkey.


Congratulation to Turkey and your intelligent engineers again!!!

An independent Turkey is in China's interest. An independent Turkey which can get rid of NATO influence is in China's interest.

Any country who can develop their own engine is a remarkable achievement!!! Salute to Turkey!!!

Technology perspective, engine core is the essential. From F-110 and AL-31, we knew the most important part is an engine core. Once you get a mature engine core, the rest will be much easier, and just a matter of time to make whole engine stable and mature.

Once an engine core is mature, then you can enlarge and shrink, to get a series of engine, it will not be easy, but much easier than developing a new engine from scrach.

I can see Turkey in on the way to get a mature engine core. Good luck, Bro.

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## Bossman

airmarshal said:


> There you said it! Turks are a great nation and they think like an independent nation. We dont.


They were never colonized.

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## ÇölKaplanı

Bossman said:


> They were never colonized.


Well, they tried it for once but...






 






Best joke ever, right?

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## khanasifm

So t-129 with US engine and export ?? Not happening reason why would I like competition ? I would kill it 

https://www.janes.com/article/95884/philippines-cleared-to-buy-apache-or-viper-attack-helos-from-us

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## MastanKhan

airmarshal said:


> There you said it! Turks are a great nation and they think like an independent nation. We dont.



Hi,

For me---they woke up from their slumber---looked at themselves---started looking towards east and re-found their identity---.

" I would rather be a king in hell than a nobody in heavens---".

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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For me---they woke up from their slumber---looked at themselves---started looking towards east and re-found their identity---.
> 
> " I would rather be a king in hell than a nobody in heavens---".


rather
big fish in a small pond vs small fish in a big pond

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> So t-129 with US engine and export ?? Not happening reason why would I like competition ? I would kill it
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/95884/philippines-cleared-to-buy-apache-or-viper-attack-helos-from-us


I feel the same fate for Pak they will offer Pak more Zulus if goes through CSF PA should purchase them along old whiskey cobras can help PAA and wait for turkish ATAK 2

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For me---they woke up from their slumber---looked at themselves---started looking towards east and re-found their identity---.
> 
> " I would rather be a king in hell than a nobody in heavens---".





ali_raza said:


> rather
> big fish in a small pond vs small fish in a big pond



Hi,

I believe that was and is the best solution to their identity crisis---. Now that they are a 'somebody'---someone looks Up at them and has placed them at a veneered position---in a leadership role---which makes it an invigorating---and that is a great thing to happen to a nation that was a super power at one time and they have well wishers and allies who want to see them climb back up to their older position---.

So---now they can re-think---re-assess---re-tool their game plan and strategy---re-develop their industry---become a more powerful entity and they will by default rise back up in a much much stronger position than if they just got accepted to the west as they had wanted to in the past---.

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## Baybars Han

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe that was and is the best solution to their identity crisis---. Now that they are a 'somebody'---someone looks Up at them and has placed them at a veneered position---in a leadership role---which makes it an invigorating---and that is a great thing to happen to a nation that was a super power at one time and they have well wishers and allies who want to see them climb back up to their older position---.
> 
> So---now they can re-think---re-assess---re-tool their game plan and strategy---re-develop their industry---become a more powerful entity and they will by default rise back up in a much much stronger position than if they just got accepted to the west as they had wanted to in the past---.


People never understand why we ever wanted to become an EU member as you call it "being accepted to the west". That is short sightedness at its best. The biggest factor is economics reasons, single market, ease of visa and trade etc. Trying to achieve these are not being accepted. This never affected our relationship with other countries and should not.

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## MastanKhan

Baybars Han said:


> People never understand why we ever wanted to become an EU member as you call it "being accepted to the west". That is short sightedness at its best. The biggest factor is economics reasons, single market, ease of visa and trade etc. Trying to achieve these are not being accepted. This never affected our relationship with other countries and should not.



Hi,

We knew that for a long time since Turkey wanted to join the european union---there were many an articles on this subject---. It was obvious what Turkey wanted---.

But remember one one---what you believe in is sometimes something different than what others see---.

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## khanasifm

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...er-attack-helicopter-options-for-philippines/

this case, the choice of either American-made platforms is not guaranteed; Manilla is also considering the Turkish-made T129 ATAK. However, the U.S. State Department often preapproves potential sales of systems to foreign countries so that if the foreign partner does select an American-made weapon, the process will move more quick

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## nomi007

Tasveeri mazay

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> Tasveeri mazay


bus yehi ker sakty hain hum

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## aziqbal

Pakistan should have taken Chinese Z-10 

apparently it was rubbish but better than nothing

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## Hassan Guy

Being a Pakistani defence fan is the worst.


It's just heartbreak after heartbreak.


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## Trango Towers

aziqbal said:


> Pakistan should have taken Chinese Z-10
> 
> apparently it was rubbish but better than nothing


That's the mindset..let settle for rubbish. Asli pakistani


----------



## Hassan Guy

Being a Pakistani defence fan is the worst.


It's just heartbreak after heartbreak.

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## Trango Towers

Hassan Guy said:


> Being a Pakistani defence fan is the worst.
> 
> 
> It's just heartbreak after heartbreak.


Why..

Be proud of what you have and master your weapons...many an army has shown that competent use of old weapons is much better than having modern toys that you cannot use

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## aziqbal

Trango Towers said:


> That's the mindset..let settle for rubbish. Asli pakistani



could be worse could have your mentality which is sit and wait for next 30 years begging US


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## Armchair

Imagine these with 4x atgms, CIRIT laser guided rockets with pods, MAML type munitions. Centerline for a glide bomb or a SOW.

Flies at the speed of an AH-64 at full pace. Built tough with duraliminium. Easiest and cheapest to overhaul. Insanely low CPFH, beyond anything even a Tucano can offer. Cost of aquisition - probably 100K per bird. 
Pakistan is about to go to war with India which has a hundred attack helos and squadrons of Sepecat Jaguars, armed with precision cluster munition to devastate entire divisions. 

What is the calculus here that something that can do 80% of the job is being ignored while the preferred option is not even practically available? I personally don't know but I'm no military man and I understand that I have little inside information as to the reasons for this kind of decision making.

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## Trango Towers

aziqbal said:


> could be worse could have your mentality which is sit and wait for next 30 years begging US


Loool that's your comeback after saying we should have taken the not up to standards Chinese choppers. 
My dear I am very much against your chacha Sam. They have done nothing but weaken Pakistan through aid and military hardware. I am the one who is advocating moving on and project azm all the way. Forget anything from your chacha


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## TsAr

aziqbal said:


> Pakistan should have taken Chinese Z-10
> 
> apparently it was rubbish but better than nothing


If we are planning on adding rubbish then I am sure there is plenty of rubbish available to us....better stick to what we have and keep on looking for the best deal...

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## python-000

aziqbal said:


> Pakistan should have taken Chinese Z-10
> 
> apparently it was rubbish but better than nothing


Sir my question is are you one of the test pilot those Z-10 or is there any other option for Pakistan in urgent bases...


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## Liquidmetal

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> _[*Preamble:* Babur Han, armed with cannons, matchlocks, Turkic sharp shooters and cavalry etc., was being repeatedly unable to conquer Hindustan - his ultimate objective since his childhood, spent in sleeping under the tress in the Fargana Valley! Then, he broke all of his wine jars and offered two Ra'kat of Namaz for the success of his 6K troops in the up coming battle against Sultan Lodhi's 100K+ forces - now known as the First Battle of Panipat. The rest is history....]_
> 
> As for ATAK engines, it’s not only a Pak problem, but also a Turkish problem.* No, Turkey under Reis Erdo'an hasn't sold out Pak in the streets of Lahore/Karachi/Peshevar etc.*!!! This unique opportunity was availed by Pak's very own politicians, civil/military bureaucrats, businessmen, journalists, clerics etc.!!! Hence, no stones are kept unturned to have indigenous engines. Having indigenous engines of all sorts - tank/armored, UAVs, choppers, jets, ships, subs, cruise missiles, rockets etc. - is her top most priority now...
> 
> According to the European analysts, as shown in the video below (9:03 onward, 1st video), KALE group, a Turkish company producing engine parts for F-35s, has succeeded in producing the most critical heat resistant engine materials to operate at 2,000C use conditions. A state-of-the-art engine stress test environment to accommodate high temperature and emulate real-life flight conditions has been specifically established to further R&D activities. KALE is working with Rolls-Royce for the indigenous jet engine. Now, these technologies have been transferred to TAI/TUSAS-TEI etc. for producing turbo-prop and turbo-shaft engines. Turbo-props are already under serial production, and are integrated into UAVs like ANKA, AKSUNGUR etc. ANKAs for Tunisia will have indigenous engines. As for turbo-shaft engines (Prototype of TS1400 core is ready, see the slides below) for GOKBEY and ATAK choppers, the projected time-line for serial production is 2021-22...
> 
> KALE has already produced KTJ3200 for SOM cruise missiles...
> 
> TEI has produced the single-crystal blade for turbojets. And, it has perfected Ni/Ti deposition and casting techniques. At least the half of all the commercial aircrafts, currently flying in the world, has some of the rotating parts from TEI in their engines ...
> 
> A journey of a thousand miles start with a single step...
> 
> [Only for the _Ehl-i Iman]_A single act of _Hosh Amal_, done with _Iman, Ihlas, Uhuvvet_ etc., has a thousand _Bereket _in it...
> 
> The Chinese invented gun powder, and the Turkic folks established three Empires - Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal - using that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 622938
> 
> View attachment 622933
> 
> View attachment 622936
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Turkey is brother country like China and will fulfill the supply of these helicopters, the enemies of Islamic brotherhood may have delayed the projected but not stopped it. InshAllah Turkey will develop an indigenous engine and will be even more sanctions proof.

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## aziqbal

too much chest bumping and this makes us look stupid 

most of you are living in a fanboy dream, its not easy like your lego toys to build military machines 

do you know what is a turboshaft engine?> do you know how it works? even what is a helicopter ?

oh yeah lets build our own lets do it and make complete fools of ourselves

this is not how to works in the real world 

even the next iteration the larger and bigger ATAK II will use imported engine get with the times

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## python-000

Shell we go for Mi-28N from Russia....


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## Readerdefence

python-000 said:


> Shell we go for Mi-28N from Russia....


Hi why not Z10 at least Pakistan will get credit or deferred payment to get these I think Russian 
Only go for the hard cash or until they been given the contract of building oil pipeline in Pakistan ASAP 
Your input please 
Thank you


----------



## nomi007

Better to scrape T-129 atak helicopter deal and consider the
*Hürkuş-C*

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

nomi007 said:


> Better to scrape T-129 atak helicopter deal and consider the
> *Hürkuş-C*



Why do you want Hürkuş when There is jl8 / k8 in your inventory ?
Also, cas planes can't replace the helicopter, you have to 20/30 mm in mountainous terrain.


----------



## -------

aziqbal said:


> too much chest bumping and this makes us look stupid
> 
> most of you are living in a fanboy dream, its not easy like your lego toys to build military machines
> 
> do you know what is a turboshaft engine?> do you know how it works? even what is a helicopter ?
> 
> oh yeah lets build our own lets do it and make complete fools of ourselves
> 
> this is not how to works in the real world
> 
> even the next iteration the larger and bigger ATAK II will use imported engine get with the times



There has been no discussion on where Turkey will source the engines of the ATAK II. All we know is that it requires 2x3,000shp and that development of that type of engine has not started.

As for the TS1400 that will power T625 and T629, it is progressing on schedule and there is enough headway to up the power to 1600shp on the core.

If you think Turkey is into some sort of fantasy world developing engines, you are seriously misguided.
TS1400 with its accessory drive

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## xbat

Combat-Master said:


> All we know is that it requires 2x3,000shp and that development of that type of engine has not started.



3000 shp engine development project has started.


----------



## PDF

nomi007 said:


> Better to scrape T-129 atak helicopter deal and consider the
> *Hürkuş-C*


How can we divert our funds for attack helicopters somewhere else when we have necessary requirement for them?

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## PanzerKiel

Hachiman said:


> How can we divert our funds for attack helicopters somewhere else when we have necessary requirement for them?



Dear
Actually, requirement for a particular piece of equipment stems out of the role or task or a requirement which is to be completed. 

For example , task could be that you want to counter Indian army's armored division in the desert. Now, everything flows out of this. This task can be completed by jets, attack helis, APC mounted ATGMs, ballistic missiles etc.... In short a number of options. And for each option, we have different equipment of different brands .

So, even if one piece of equipment within an option has been nullified, there may be other brands, or entirely different options to fullfil the original requirement.

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## MastanKhan

aziqbal said:


> Pakistan should have taken Chinese Z-10
> 
> apparently it was rubbish but better than nothing



Hi,

There were supposedly some massive kickbacks in the T129 deal---.



Liquidmetal said:


> Turkey is brother country like China and will fulfill the supply of these helicopters, the enemies of Islamic brotherhood may have delayed the projected but not stopped it. InshAllah Turkey will develop an indigenous engine and will be even more sanctions proof.




Hi,

A delayed project is a stopped project---.

If your mother was dying of corona today you would NOT be waiting for the Turkish medicine coming after 5 years---. I bet you would get the chinese medicine that is available today---.



nomi007 said:


> Better to scrape T-129 atak helicopter deal and consider the
> *Hürkuş-C*



Hi,

This only works against lightly armed afghan taliban---.

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## monitor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There were supposedly some massive kickbacks in the T129 deal---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A delayed project is a stopped project---.
> 
> If your mother was dying of corona today you would NOT be waiting for the Turkish medicine coming after 5 years---. I bet you would get the chinese medicine that is available today---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This only works against lightly armed afghan taliban---.


Z-10 were not chosen as its engine problem and not reaching sufficient heights pa wants to fight. T-129 can reaches more height then Z-10. Lettest Z-10E have mitigate all the short coming of Z-10. 
As Indigenous Turkish engine is far cry from serial production . Unless turkey can solve the us engine re export problem Pakistan have no better option then "Z-10P" From China.

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## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> Better to scrape T-129 atak helicopter deal and consider the
> *Hürkuş-C*


drones should be an option for long endurance tank-killing solution..indigenous design that can be mass-produced in 300-400 number at least with ability to be able to fly from motorways/highways and low maintenance high mobility launch capability ..each having payload of 4-8 antitank weapons with a range of 8-10 km..just like brimstone (weight 50kg)
something like this





or future stealth drone like this





regardless t 129 deal is dead..i doubt it will be smart to weight for turkish engine..unless PA wants to play the long game..get into the boat with all Turkish helios including the transport program ..
i dont see any intention on that front

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## volatile

just to add Z10s faced problems while flights took place in desert as engines were not designed to withstand the dust/sand ,above many requirements/improvements the addition of filters at inlet were also added .

just to add Z10s faced problems while flights took place in desert as engines were not designed to withstand the dust/sand ,above many requirements/improvements the addition of filters at inlet were also added .

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## ziaulislam

having said that we need to eliminate our deserts..
if California can have more area under cultivation with 1/3rd of water why can't Pakistan do it..
you have 3 times more water as Eygpt under river Nile... 3 times as much as California but water gets wasted in canals..
result..some area WATER CLOGGED and some areas BARREN

thal and thar desert shouldn't exist ..it exists due to incompetence

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## Affanakad0t.

MastanKhan said:


> This only works against lightly armed afghan taliban---.


Afghan taliban?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> regardless t 129 deal is dead..i doubt it will be smart to weight for turkish engine..unless PA wants to play the long game..get into the boat with all Turkish helios including the transport program ..
> i dont see any intention on that front


IMO ... waiting on the Turkish engine isn't a bad idea, nor is the long game unwise. India is on its way to building a very large attack helicopter force, and if the PAA is serious about "matching" it, then ad hoc off-the-shelf purchases (USA here, China there, Turkey where, etc) isn't an effective strategy.

The right approach is to select a system that works in the environments you need it to work, and build a large order base to force the OEM to set-up shop in Pakistan (offsets, co-production/supply chain integration, etc). As it stands, the only country that has vocally offered that opportunity to Pakistan is Turkey. 

Will it create a short-term gap? Sure, but that's life in Pakistan. Just take a look at our hard currency situation, and the fiscal pressure that will come in the next 1-2 years to recover from COVID-19. The world is slowing down, so it's our chance to use the downtime to get a solution that benefits our industry. 

It looks like Turkey designed the T629 (T129 w/Turkish engine) primarily for export. If we warrant a large enough order (e.g., 90-120), we can justify taking over the airframe and avionics manufacturing (but import the engine and transmission from Turkey), and gradually build our fleet in the long-run (6-12 units a year based on cash).

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... waiting on the Turkish engine isn't a bad idea, nor is the long game unwise. India is on its way to building a very large attack helicopter force, and if the PAA is serious about "matching" it, then ad hoc off-the-shelf purchases (USA here, China there, Turkey where, etc) isn't an effective strategy.
> 
> The right approach is to select a system that works in the environments you need it to work, and build a large order base to force the OEM to set-up shop in Pakistan (offsets, co-production/supply chain integration, etc). As it stands, the only country that has vocally offered that opportunity to Pakistan is Turkey.
> 
> Will it create a short-term gap? Sure, but that's life in Pakistan. Just take a look at our hard currency situation, and the fiscal pressure that will come in the next 1-2 years to recover from COVID-19. The world is slowing down, so it's our chance to use the downtime to get a solution that benefits our industry.
> 
> It looks like Turkey designed the T629 (T129 w/Turkish engine) primarily for export. If we warrant a large enough order (e.g., 90-120), we can justify taking over the airframe and avionics manufacturing (but import the engine and transmission from Turkey), and gradually build our fleet in the long-run (6-12 units a year based on cash).



The hulls of helicopters developed by TAI in the future can be produced in Pakistan in the short term and the helicopter can be combined there. Pakistan also has work force, even if Turkey hasn't selected in this deal, it should be placed to work with China.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... waiting on the Turkish engine isn't a bad idea, nor is the long game unwise. India is on its way to building a very large attack helicopter force, and if the PAA is serious about "matching" it, then ad hoc off-the-shelf purchases (USA here, China there, Turkey where, etc) isn't an effective strategy.
> 
> The right approach is to select a system that works in the environments you need it to work, and build a large order base to force the OEM to set-up shop in Pakistan (offsets, co-production/supply chain integration, etc). As it stands, the only country that has vocally offered that opportunity to Pakistan is Turkey.
> 
> Will it create a short-term gap? Sure, but that's life in Pakistan. Just take a look at our hard currency situation, and the fiscal pressure that will come in the next 1-2 years to recover from COVID-19. The world is slowing down, so it's our chance to use the downtime to get a solution that benefits our industry.
> 
> It looks like Turkey designed the T629 (T129 w/Turkish engine) primarily for export. If we warrant a large enough order (e.g., 90-120), we can justify taking over the airframe and avionics manufacturing (but import the engine and transmission from Turkey), and gradually build our fleet in the long-run (6-12 units a year based on cash).


What year you think Turkish engine would be ready for export?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What year you think Turkish engine would be ready for export?


TEI is aiming for 2025, but I think 2028-2030. 

It's a long time, and I'm 100% sure the Army isn't going to wait. 

Ideally, the Army would succeed in settling near-term needs with a heavyweight attack helicopter (8-10 ton). This was the original plan with the AH-1Z so that it doesn't have overlapping types, rather complementary systems. So, if only we can succeed with our efforts to secure the CSF/FMF...

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> TEI is aiming for 2025, but I think 2028-2030.
> 
> It's a long time, and I'm 100% sure the Army isn't going to wait.
> 
> Ideally, the Army would succeed in settling near-term needs with a heavyweight attack helicopter (8-10 ton). This was the original plan with the AH-1Z so that it doesn't have overlapping types, rather complementary systems. So, if only we can succeed with our efforts to secure the CSF/FMF...


The years is not a very long time in terms of aviation, though Pakistan is perhaps already half way through that decade where the initial planning and procurement stages were held. Still, with the helicopter fleet it needs to replace, esp the Pumas and the Sea Kings (and even older Hips) it makes sense to go for a universal platform that can also form the basis of the industrial setup inside the country and put us on the road for a semi-indigenous solution later on.
In the short-term we will have to make do with what we have. This pandemic actually has bought us some time as wars are fought on the backs of economic strength and India is not in any shape to start one for the time being.
We need to maximize this and think where we want to be in 10-20 years, and not where we should have been right now. In that regards, Turkey is the best way forward, and where they don't have a solution, we have China's newer offerings (once they are mature enough) as a back up.

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## TOPGUN

We need to get over T-129 its not going to happen !!

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## IceCold

TOPGUN said:


> We need to get over T-129 its not going to happen !!


We have wasted too much time on betting upon the wrong horse. With war looming over the horizon, it is paramount that Pakistan should now push the americans to release Super Cobras. Recently US approached Pakistan over Afghanistan, now is the perfect time to ask americans its time you do something for us first and that is to release our cobras first. There is no other short term option.

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## Akh1112

monitor said:


> Z-10 were not chosen as its engine problem and not reaching sufficient heights pa wants to fight. T-129 can reaches more height then Z-10. Lettest Z-10E have mitigate all the short coming of Z-10.
> As Indigenous Turkish engine is far cry from serial production . Unless turkey can solve the us engine re export problem Pakistan have no better option then "Z-10P" From China.




Thats not entirely true, the Z-10 also cannot carry a full payload due to weak engines, it was not selected due to it only being able to carry half a payload

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> The years is not a very long time in terms of aviation, though Pakistan is perhaps already half way through that decade where the initial planning and procurement stages were held. Still, with the helicopter fleet it needs to replace, esp the Pumas and the Sea Kings (and even older Hips) it makes sense to go for a universal platform that can also form the basis of the industrial setup inside the country and put us on the road for a semi-indigenous solution later on.
> In the short-term we will have to make do with what we have. This pandemic actually has bought us some time as wars are fought on the backs of economic strength and India is not in any shape to start one for the time being.
> We need to maximize this and think where we want to be in 10-20 years, and not where we should have been right now. In that regards, Turkey is the best way forward, and where they don't have a solution, we have China's newer offerings (once they are mature enough) as a back up.


Exactly.

The T629 and T625 will use the same engine and critical parts. So, we can use the T629 as our mainstay attack helicopter (to match-up with the LCH), and the T625 for utility. In fact, we can use the T625 for carrying troops, CSAR, naval ops, etc.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly.
> 
> The T629 and T625 will use the same engine and critical parts. So, we can use the T629 as our mainstay attack helicopter (to match-up with the LCH), and the T625 for utility. In fact, we can use the T625 for carrying troops, CSAR, naval ops, etc.


Both heli will good option in future inductions, but for time gap till now we can go for Chinese Z10 chines change its engine and air intake after feedback from Pakistan, 3 of intial z 10 stay in Pakistan for more then year and tested in multiple area, second option is to include limited number of MI 28 or Mi 52 mau be only 6 initially like we did will Mi 35 from russia. 
So combination of Z10 and few russian Heli can give some kind heli attack option till Turkish heli not available


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> Both heli will good option in future inductions, but for time gap till now we can go for Chinese Z10 chines change its engine and air intake after feedback from Pakistan, 3 of intial z 10 stay in Pakistan for more then year and tested in multiple area, second option is to include limited number of MI 28 or Mi 52 mau be only 6 initially like we did will Mi 35 from russia.
> So combination of Z10 and few russian Heli can give some kind heli attack option till Turkish heli not available


The alternative is selecting the Z-10ME from China, and buying a large number of them over the next 7-10 years. But my point is: stick to one strategy, don't get into ad hoc purchases here and there.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The alternative is selecting the Z-10ME from China, and buying a large number of them over the next 7-10 years. But my point is: stick to one strategy, don't get into ad hoc purchases here and there.


Agree with you, but in long we can keep multiple plateform not much but 2 to 3, as india already have large heli force and increasing aswell on high speed. 
Waiting with any thing jist old cobras will dangerous senario. We need to keep our defense strong. 
Once turkish heli arrive both chines and turkish can be used in long run
Z10ME is specifically agisnt shortcoming Pakistan informed but E is normal export version, we can get Customizes version as z10NP

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## mikaal hassan

At the end of the which ever option we chose if its Turkish or Chinese option it needs to be on similar line like jf 17 but with a bigger picture which should cover all the type of helicopters transport and attack requirement for the nation even the civilian side too .we cant have same fiasco like using multiple suppliers for different use at all .its simply shameful

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## aziqbal

What Pakistan has done to its helicopter fleet is nothing short of criminal

after 2001 when the counter insurgency started yes 19 years ago!! it was a wake up call to get our rotary wing into action

the so called "war on terror" showed how desperate our fleet was and what did we do> nothing

we should have established a Kamra style production line in Multan 2 decades ago

instead what did we rely on? those stupid 1960s Alouette, the famous 26 x Bell 412EP, the ancient MI-17 donated by US aid via Russia and some other rubbish AH-1 from Jordan or whatever they came from

the entire fleet should be scrapped, they rattle, they are tired and most of them expired and in very bad condition

we needed a dedicated attack helicopters and a dedicated transport helicopters in large numbers

what helicopters we should have picked and from which country we can leave to our imagination

but situation is already 20 years over due, just shocking

but its ok some Pakistani fanboys are living in a dream world saying we can build our own 5th generation fighter and new attack helicopters

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The alternative is selecting the Z-10ME from China, and buying a large number of them over the next 7-10 years. But my point is: stick to one strategy, don't get into ad hoc purchases here and there.


Sir,
There are 2 questions that come to my mind after reading your post.

1) Does China use the same engine of Z-10ME for its Utility / Transport Z-20?
2) Can you find out about what was the MLU done by PAF KAMRA for the existing AH-1's?

These question should indicate what is the reasonable time remaining on the existing PAA fleet and the next choice that Pakistan would select.


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## Scorpiooo

aziqbal said:


> What Pakistan has done to its helicopter fleet is nothing short of criminal
> 
> after 2001 when the counter insurgency started yes 19 years ago!! it was a wake up call to get our rotary wing into action
> 
> the so called "war on terror" showed how desperate our fleet was and what did we do> nothing
> 
> we should have established a Kamra style production line in Multan 2 decades ago
> 
> instead what did we rely on? those stupid 1960s Alouette, the famous 26 x Bell 412EP, the ancient MI-17 donated by US aid via Russia and some other rubbish AH-1 from Jordan or whatever they came from
> 
> the entire fleet should be scrapped, they rattle, they are tired and most of them expired and in very bad condition
> 
> we needed a dedicated attack helicopters and a dedicated transport helicopters in large numbers
> 
> what helicopters we should have picked and from which country we can leave to our imagination
> 
> but situation is already 20 years over due, just shocking
> 
> but its ok some Pakistani fanboys are living in a dream world saying we can build our own 5th generation fighter and new attack helicopters


Agree, look India how much established heli local development line is, we can make fun of there helis capabilities, but atleast thay are trying to improve and in next few years thay will have vary solid development line and expertise. But pakistani fanbay will keep making fun of them for only self satisfaction 
Its not even to late we have future ahead start thanking get in touch with lenardo , china or even turkey properly to accommodate future light and heavy attach helis along with utilities helis we need alot in different area like, army, airforce, navy, fc and government sectors as well. Even will have private sector as client too.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> There are 2 questions that come to my mind after reading your post.
> 
> 1) Does China use the same engine of Z-10ME for its Utility / Transport Z-20?
> 2) Can you find out about what was the MLU done by PAF KAMRA for the existing AH-1's?
> 
> These question should indicate what is the reasonable time remaining on the existing PAA fleet and the next choice that Pakistan would select.


1. No, the Z-10ME uses an improved version of the WZ-9 engine, the Z-20 uses the WZ-10. 

2. I believe it was primarily rewiring work, not aware of any rebuild activities (could be wrong).

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. No, the Z-10ME uses an improved version of the WZ-9 engine, the Z-20 uses the WZ-10.
> 
> 2. I believe it was primarily rewiring work, not aware of any rebuild activities (could be wrong).



I was under the impression that the Z-10ME uses a sino/french jv engine, the WZ-16(1500kW v 1000kW of the WZ-9) which is also shared with the Z-15?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. No, the Z-10ME uses an improved version of the WZ-9 engine, the Z-20 uses the WZ-10.
> 
> 2. I believe it was primarily rewiring work, not aware of any rebuild activities (could be wrong).


Keeping these in mind T-129 will remain the choice not to mention that incase PAA can some how find a way to procure those Zulus. Though an Italian engine could also be looked upon for the T-129-2 as that is still under development and technically could have a new engine provider. 

However PAA can also consider the Russian option because of commonality in engine though this is highly unlikely.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Keeping these in mind T-129 will remain the choice not to mention that incase PAA can some how find a way to procure those Zulus. Though an Italian engine could also be looked upon for the T-129-2 as that is still under development and technically could have a new engine provider.
> 
> However PAA can also consider the Russian option because of commonality in engine though this is highly unlikely.



İtalian engine ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Keeping these in mind T-129 will remain the choice not to mention that incase PAA can some how find a way to procure those Zulus. Though an Italian engine could also be looked upon for the T-129-2 as that is still under development and technically could have a new engine provider.
> 
> However PAA can also consider the Russian option because of commonality in engine though this is highly unlikely.


If not the Turks, the only engine that might be available for the T129 is Rolls-Royce one used in the Tiger. Either way, we are talking about a 1-2 year integration period, and a 1-2 year testing phase. 



Akh1112 said:


> I was under the impression that the Z-10ME uses a sino/french jv engine, the WZ-16(1500kW v 1000kW of the WZ-9) which is also shared with the Z-15?



via AINOnline:

_Likely to target markets from the Middle East and Africa, the Z-10ME was represented in a sand and green camouflage livery and was refitted with sand/dust separation filters for its improved WZ-9 turboshaft engines, which are believed to provide 30 percent more power, at around 1,200 kW. The engine exhausts are modified from the standard Z-10 sideward-facing exhausts to upward-facing exhausts, which decreases its infrared signature.
_
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...hinas-z-10me-showcased-increased-capabilities​

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If not the Turks, the only engine that might be available for the T129 is Rolls-Royce one used in the Tiger. Either way, we are talking about a 1-2 year integration period, and a 1-2 year testing phase.
> 
> 
> 
> via AINOnline:
> 
> _Likely to target markets from the Middle East and Africa, the Z-10ME was represented in a sand and green camouflage livery and was refitted with sand/dust separation filters for its improved WZ-9 turboshaft engines, which are believed to provide 30 percent more power, at around 1,200 kW. The engine exhausts are modified from the standard Z-10 sideward-facing exhausts to upward-facing exhausts, which decreases its infrared signature.
> _
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...hinas-z-10me-showcased-increased-capabilities​




Huh, odd, last i heard that Z-10's were being upgraded with the Safran engine


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## LKJ86

Akh1112 said:


> last i heard that Z-10's were being upgraded with the Safran engine


Impossible.
WZ-16 is just a France-China developed civil engine for AC352 helicopter (about 7.5 tons).
AC352 used to be called Z-15, but PLA isn't interested in it.

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If not the Turks, the only engine that might be available for the T129 is Rolls-Royce one used in the Tiger. Either way, we are talking about a 1-2 year integration period, and a 1-2 year testing phase.
> 
> 
> 
> via AINOnline:
> 
> _Likely to target markets from the Middle East and Africa, the Z-10ME was represented in a sand and green camouflage livery and was refitted with sand/dust separation filters for its improved WZ-9 turboshaft engines, which are believed to provide 30 percent more power, at around 1,200 kW. The engine exhausts are modified from the standard Z-10 sideward-facing exhausts to upward-facing exhausts, which decreases its infrared signature.
> _
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...hinas-z-10me-showcased-increased-capabilities​



z-10 were as heavy If not more as ah-1z ~ 7000Kg max weight vs T-129 55/5600kg max weight and engine performance and max altitude was 1000 plus meter less 4500 vs ~6000 plus I think for t-129

not sure if only engine were upgrade or weight was also reduced for -z-10ME??

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## -------

T-129 phase 2 helicopter with enhanced self-protection suite in background

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262372869050376195

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## Scorpiooo

Combat-Master said:


> T-129 phase 2 helicopter with enhanced self-protection suite in background
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262372869050376195


You mean ATAK 2 ?


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Scorpiooo said:


> You mean ATAK 2 ?



No, He is mean Phase 2 version to T129

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## Scorpiooo

What exactly pahse 2 is about ?


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Scorpiooo said:


> What exactly pahse 2 is about ?



u can check those

http://en.c4defence.com/Archive/atak-faz-ii-uctu/8960/1



https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/first-test-flight-with-the-t129-phase-ii-prototype-3732

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## -------



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## Myth_buster_1

Combat-Master said:


> View attachment 633803



This looks soooo sick brooo!!!


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## Readerdefence

Combat-Master said:


> View attachment 633802
> 
> View attachment 633803


Hi what’s on the tip of the wings some kind of laser designator & if possible what’s the current configuration on the heli with the above picture 
Thank you


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## -------

Readerdefence said:


> Hi what’s on the tip of the wings some kind of laser designator & if possible what’s the current configuration on the heli with the above picture
> Thank you




The designation, T129-B Phase-II helicopters include;

*9681 V/UHF* (Very High/Ultra High Frequency) radio provides frequency hopping, encrypted and clear voice/data communications in line of sight (LOS)
*RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) *with a digital receiver, capable of detecting the signals of radars operating in C-J bands using Pulsed and Continuous Wave (CW) and their combinations
*RFJ (Radio Frequency Jammer)* I-J Band which incorporates various advanced technologies such as Active Electronic Scanning Antenna (AESA), Solid State Power Amplifier and Digital RF Memory (DRFM) - 
*LWR (Laser Warning Receiver)* designed to detect almost all types of laser threats available in the world military inventory. Laser Range Finders (LRF), Laser Designators (LD) and Laser Beam Riders (LBR) threats operating on various optical bands can be detected by the system.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/first-test-flight-with-the-t129-phase-ii-prototype-3732

We can pretty much say, T-129B PII has reached its peak.

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## Cornered Tiger

PanzerKiel said:


> I must say, in some actions where these four participated together, they achieved quite a fame while using their guns and ATGMs.



So we should expect further orders, right?

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## mingle

Combat-Master said:


> View attachment 633802
> 
> View attachment 633803


She is test pilot?

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## -------

mingle said:


> She is test pilot?



Yes, there are a few female test pilots. This particular test pilots' name is Esra Ozturk, she's a Flight test engineer and has majored in electrical electronic engineering. She's one of many talented brains that has returned back to Turkey with the help of Reverse Brain Drain Project Turkish Aerospace (and many other companies) has implemented.

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## Scorpiooo

Combat-Master said:


> The designation, T129-B Phase-II helicopters include;
> 
> *9681 V/UHF* (Very High/Ultra High Frequency) radio provides frequency hopping, encrypted and clear voice/data communications in line of sight (LOS)
> *RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) *with a digital receiver, capable of detecting the signals of radars operating in C-J bands using Pulsed and Continuous Wave (CW) and their combinations
> *RFJ (Radio Frequency Jammer)* I-J Band which incorporates various advanced technologies such as Active Electronic Scanning Antenna (AESA), Solid State Power Amplifier and Digital RF Memory (DRFM) -
> *LWR (Laser Warning Receiver)* designed to detect almost all types of laser threats available in the world military inventory. Laser Range Finders (LRF), Laser Designators (LD) and Laser Beam Riders (LBR) threats operating on various optical bands can be detected by the system.
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/first-test-flight-with-the-t129-phase-ii-prototype-3732
> 
> We can pretty much say, T-129B PII has reached its peak.


Mean no engine modification or replacement


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Scorpiooo said:


> Mean no engine modification or replacement



No phase information has been provided regarding motor replacement. As far as I know, the TS1400 uses the same type of Fadec and will be plug and play in terms of engine size.

If you mean a different engine from Europe, the problem of the engine not being exported is about Pakistan, the army does not need to use a European engine.


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## Scorpiooo

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> No phase information has been provided regarding motor replacement. As far as I know, the TS1400 uses the same type of Fadec and will be plug and play in terms of engine size.
> 
> If you mean a different engine from Europe, the problem of the engine not being exported is about Pakistan, the army does not need to use a European engine.



Question is why are have issue with European engine (which may availed somehow, as mostly helis are using) but willing to wait for American engine (which may not available, specially for Pakistan, due to lov of American for Pakistan)


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## cabatli_53

T-629











@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Scorpiooo

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Prototype or production version?


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## cabatli_53

Scorpiooo said:


> Prototype or production version?



T-629 will make its first flight in this year. The model introduced in images was just a mock-up.

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## khanasifm

Scorpiooo said:


> Prototype or production version?




Are you saying this is t-129 Test flight with new engine replacing the us/British engine ?


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

khanasifm said:


> Are you saying this is t-129 Test flight with new engine replacing the us/British engine ?



I think Pakistani friends are a bit confused for these


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## Tipu7

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629 will make its first flight in this year. The model introduced in images was just a mock-up.


Should we assume that Pakistan will move towards T-629 due to blockade of T129?

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## Mrc

Tipu7 said:


> Should we assume that Pakistan will move towards T-629 due to blockade of T129?



what would be the fun if engine is still sactionable??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mrc said:


> what would be the fun if engine is still sactionable??


The T629 is to use an ITAR-free engine @cabatli_53

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The T629 is to use an ITAR-free engine @cabatli_53


And that is the most fascinating feature of this helicopter.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> And that is the most fascinating feature of this helicopter.


If the TSK isn't interested in it, then the T629 is purely an export play. If the PAA emerges as its launch user (a long way from that considering it hasn't flown, no idea how it'll do in tests), then it has leverage for local manufacturing, offsets, etc.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

A nice video below (unfortunately in Turkish)! Major points:

T129 has reached its limits from further development POV, like adding MMR radar etc.
T629 will have indigenous turbo shaft engine
T629 will have indigenous transmission systems; hence, more flexible in putting engines from different vendors
Tons of new staffs - EW, radar, sensors, longer range and heavier A2A/A2G missiles etc. - are to be incorporated to make T629 ready to take on armors
T629 is designed to be highly scalable in terms of power, transmission, payload etc. So, ATAK II may not be necessary in near future
1st flight within this year. Serial production by 2022/23
T625 and T629 can be cost-effectively packaged together like the Bell choppers (UH & Cobra) since they share the same engine, transmission, lots of electronics etc.
T629 final design will definitely have better and "sexy" looks. The Turkish _Merts_ are quite sensitive and adamant about it!! Warfare isn't for LGBTs (recent India-China standoff being an example)

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## -------

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the TSK isn't interested in it, then the T629 is purely an export play. If the PAA emerges as its launch user (a long way from that considering it hasn't flown, no idea how it'll do in tests), then it has leverage for local manufacturing, offsets, etc.



TSK is definitely not interested in T629. They aren't even interested in ATAK-II, as T-129 is currently more than enough for the role it's serving in South-East of Turkey. However, with growing outlook of Turkey's foreign policy and LHD set to sail in near future, ATAK-II is a must have.

For me it's best to see T629 as a stepping stone towards ATAK-II.

T629 mock-up cockpit; we can see large area multifunction display.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> A nice video below (unfortunately in Turkish)! Major points:
> 
> T129 has reached its limits from further development POV, like adding MMR radar etc.
> T629 will have indigenous turbo shaft engine
> T629 will have indigenous transmission systems; hence, more flexible in putting engines from different vendors
> Tons of new staffs - EW, radar, sensors, longer range and heavier A2A/A2G missiles etc. - are to be incorporated to make T629 ready to take on armors
> T629 is designed to be highly scalable in terms of power, transmission, payload etc. So, ATAK II may not be necessary in near future
> 1st flight within this year. Serial production by 2022/23
> T625 and T629 can be cost-effectively packaged together like the Bell choppers (UH & Cobra) since they share the same engine, transmission, lots of electronics etc.
> T629 final design will definitely have better and "sexy" looks. The Turkish _Merts_ are quite sensitive and adamant about it!! Warfare isn't for LGBTs (recent India-China standoff being an example)
> 
> View attachment 640311


any in English?


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## Arsalan

cabatli_53 said:


> T-629 will make its first flight in this year. The model introduced in images was just a mock-up.


There is alot on confusion surrounding this T629 project. While some call it a 6-ton attack helicopter other have called it to be lighter than ATAK T-129 (5 ton). Some reports suggest it will be an armed version of T-625 and will be used to support ATAK and ATAK-2 as reconnaissance role and will be a light/med utility helicopter but armed!!



Tipu7 said:


> Should we assume that Pakistan will move towards T-629 due to blockade of T129?


T629 will only make sense if we get T625 too as a light transport/utility helicopter (which we are not likely to do)
If we do decide to get these in numbers then a few armed version in shape of T629 will make sense.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> any in English?


Unfortunately, the videos from the top analysts are all in Turkish....

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## Readerdefence

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Unfortunately, the videos from the top analysts are all in Turkish....


Hi my friend any of your input against these videos will be appreciated maybe a summary kind of 
Will help members like me to understand 
Thank you

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## aziqbal

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> T629 final design will definitely have better and "sexy" looks. The Turkish _Merts_ are quite sensitive and adamant about it!! Warfare isn't for LGBTs (recent India-China standoff being an example)



 the last comment bro around LGBT I dont know where it came from

anyway back on topic T629 is a dedicated attack helicopter ? then how come it uses the nomenclature "T62" indicating utility ? is it a militarised T625?

T129 ATAK II is how far progressed ? does this mean Turkey has two attack helicopter programmes ? are they two selected programmes competing against each other or two independent programmes where both will enter production ? I see ATAK II is heavier

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## Nomad40

2 ah-1z just came into Pakistan

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

aziqbal said:


> the last comment bro around LGBT I dont know where it came from
> 
> anyway back on topic T629 is a dedicated attack helicopter ? then how come it uses the nomenclature "T62" indicating utility ? is it a militarised T625?
> 
> T129 ATAK II is how far progressed ? does this mean Turkey has two attack helicopter programmes ? are they two selected programmes competing against each other or two independent programmes where both will enter production ? I see ATAK II is heavier


"Spices" belong to me of course...

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## Armchair

PAR 5 said:


> Q. What will soon ATAK T-129 will have common with FN SCAR?
> 
> A. A lot of supporters on PDF but nothing on the ground while Chinese have the last laugh



Does that mean Pak is going for a Chinese rifle?


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## TsAr

Armchair said:


> Does that mean Pak is going for a Chinese rifle?


what he means is that we will have the Chines chopper...

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## kursed

PAR 5 said:


> Q. What will soon ATAK T-129 will have common with FN SCAR?
> 
> A. A lot of supporters on PDF but nothing on the ground while Chinese have the last laugh


This is exactly what it'll be, starting this month and next. =)

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## Dazzler

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> 2 ah-1z just came into Pakistan


Unconfirmed.

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## mingle

Armchair said:


> Does that mean Pak is going for a Chinese rifle?


No Z10ME he meant

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## Baybars Han

Basically to make it simple 

Atak - 5 ton foreign engine, foreign design local parts

T629 - 6 ton more local parts, indigenous design - will form part of helicopter family with gokbey

Atak 2 - 10 ton heavy attack helicopter

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## Signalian

aziqbal said:


> the last comment bro around LGBT I dont know where it came from
> 
> anyway back on topic T629 is a dedicated attack helicopter ? then how come it uses the nomenclature "T62" indicating utility ? is it a militarised T625?
> 
> T129 ATAK II is how far progressed ? does this mean Turkey has two attack helicopter programmes ? are they two selected programmes competing against each other or two independent programmes where both will enter production ? I see ATAK II is heavier



Pakistan should have also started a dedicated light attack helicopter program by choosing a baseline heli and arming it with weapons and related senors. There is a requirement of a light gunship on western front which is primarily manned by FC. AH-1F and Mi-24 pack all sorts of punch - and AH-1 has to be called whenever attack from the air is required to support ground troops. AH-1Z's major requirement is its operability at high altitude (western theatre included) which both AH-1F and Mi-24 lack. 

One squadron of light gunship for FC KPK and another for FC Baluchistan should help FC in manning the borders and freeing all the other gunship types to operate against Indian conventional threat.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Pakistan should have also started a dedicated light attack helicopter program by choosing a baseline heli and arming it with weapons and related senors. There is a requirement of a light gunship on western front which is primarily manned by FC. AH-1F and Mi-24 pack all sorts of punch - and AH-1 has to be called whenever attack from the air is required to support ground troops. AH-1Z's major requirement is its operability at high altitude (western theatre included) which both AH-1F and Mi-24 lack.
> 
> One squadron of light gunship for FC KPK and another for FC Baluchistan should help FC in manning the borders and freeing all the other gunship types to operate against Indian conventional threat.


The very early model of the A129 (without LHTEC engines) and Z-19E could've fit this bill. Or we could have found an ITAR-free engine, and had an OEM design a OH-1-type platform around it.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> Pakistan should have also started a dedicated light attack helicopter program by choosing a baseline heli and arming it with weapons and related senors. There is a requirement of a light gunship on western front which is primarily manned by FC. AH-1F and Mi-24 pack all sorts of punch - and AH-1 has to be called whenever attack from the air is required to support ground troops. AH-1Z's major requirement is its operability at high altitude (western theatre included) which both AH-1F and Mi-24 lack.
> 
> One squadron of light gunship for FC KPK and another for FC Baluchistan should help FC in manning the borders and freeing all the other gunship types to operate against Indian conventional threat.



I think the solution is a Mirage - like program before a JF-17 like program. I would suggest choose a utility / light attack helicopter that was produced in the past and is now being retired. A successful design with capability that is useful today. Build an overhaul facility and "do a Mirage to it". For instance, the Gazelle, a relatively modern design and used by a large number of countries, now being retired / is retired and could be bought at salvage prices.

Bonus - it has not only been used successfully as an attack helicopter but is also a utility aircraft that can seat 4.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> Pakistan should have also started a dedicated light attack helicopter program by choosing a baseline heli and arming it with weapons and related senors. There is a requirement of a light gunship on western front which is primarily manned by FC. AH-1F and Mi-24 pack all sorts of punch - and AH-1 has to be called whenever attack from the air is required to support ground troops. AH-1Z's major requirement is its operability at high altitude (western theatre included) which both AH-1F and Mi-24 lack.
> 
> One squadron of light gunship for FC KPK and another for FC Baluchistan should help FC in manning the borders and freeing all the other gunship types to operate against Indian conventional threat.



could the armed fennec not ease the burden of the Cobras?


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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> could the armed fennec not ease the burden of the Cobras?


Dedicated attack variant yes, not a swing-role like UH-1 sometimes carrying transport, other times a gunship.

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## Dazzler

Time is running out for ATAK. Z-10ME has plucked nearly all deficiencies.

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## Philip the Arab

This deal will never happen idk wtf leadership is thinking.


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## SABRE

Dazzler said:


> Time is running out for ATAK. Z-10ME has plucked nearly all deficiencies.



I have a feeling this machine might find its way into PAA one way or the other.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Well, if PAA picks up Z-10ME in lieu of ATAK, the ATAK-2 could be the heavyweight option in lieu of AH-1Z.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> Dedicated attack variant yes, not a swing-role like UH-1 sometimes carrying transport, other times a gunship.



I meant the armed versions.


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## araz

Dazzler said:


> Time is running out for ATAK. Z-10ME has plucked nearly all deficiencies.


How quickly will the Chinese be able to supply Z10 MEs and what sort of time scales are we looking at to induct this bird.
A



Philip the Arab said:


> This deal will never happen idk wtf leadership is thinking.


The leadership is not a bunch of jittery pimply kids who have enhanced reflexes and get excited over each and every scenario. The leadership keeps a very close and careful eye at the developments going on with our brotherly nations and makes calculated decisions for the betterment of the armed forces. So please sit back and take notice of what knowledgeable posters like @Dazzler are writing. See his post and notice his exact words. You will see PAA keeping eyes on Chinese developments which ( and I am taking some liberties here) may or maynot be where PAF might want them to be(notice the word nearly). ATAK would have started helicopter industry in Pakistan based on work share which would have been welcomed by both Turkey and Pakistan, which is why we patiently wait for our brothers to achieve a major milestone in indigenous engine development. Once done we have a developed and matured EU technology with a non ITAR engine and possibility to integrate our own weaponry with it. The possibility of work share alone will make this project worth waiting for.

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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, if PAA picks up Z-10ME in lieu of ATAK, the ATAK-2 could be the heavyweight option in lieu of AH-1Z.


Z-10ME is pretty much a confirm buy for PAA. It'll come with the radar that we need, AAMs, a2g missiles and highs speed datalink. If you consolidate this with the VT-4 news, you can see which direction we're heading in.

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## Dazzler

araz said:


> How quickly will the Chinese be able to supply Z10 MEs and what sort of time scales are we looking at to induct this bird.
> A .



Take a leaf from the VT-4 deal, may be between 2-3 years or less. We may not order more than 30.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> Pakistan should have also started a dedicated light attack helicopter program by choosing a baseline heli and arming it with weapons and related senors. There is a requirement of a light gunship on western front which is primarily manned by FC. AH-1F and Mi-24 pack all sorts of punch - and AH-1 has to be called whenever attack from the air is required to support ground troops. AH-1Z's major requirement is its operability at high altitude (western theatre included) which both AH-1F and Mi-24 lack.
> 
> One squadron of light gunship for FC KPK and another for FC Baluchistan should help FC in manning the borders and freeing all the other gunship types to operate against Indian conventional threat.


Why light? The lighter version may be cheaper but it's payload will be limited and range even more limited.
Mi-35M are acquired primarily for Western fronts. And their numbers will increase beyond 4+5 in future. That gunship, due to its superior Armaments (can carry cheap rocket pods, gunpods and have dedicated gun), longer range (can carry external fuel to increase it further), can carry 8 troops, can be used for Medi-Evec and for carrying supplies, is armored to survive enemy gun fire and equipped with day/night all weather operability,... It's the right answer we got.
We don't have lexury of equipping FC with gunships and combat drones.

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Why light?


QRF.

Movement sensors, cameras, drones, foot and motorized patrols for surveillance. 


> The lighter version may be cheaper but it's payload will be limited and range even more limited.
> Mi-35M are acquired primarily for Western fronts. And their numbers will increase beyond 4+5 in future. That gunship, due to its superior Armaments (can carry cheap rocket pods, gunpods and have dedicated gun), longer range (can carry external fuel to increase it further), can carry 8 troops, can be used for Medi-Evec and for carrying supplies, is armored to survive enemy gun fire and equipped with day/night all weather operability,... It's the right answer we got.


Clearance of terrorists and extremists from Western region has almost come to an end through different Ops conducted under different timelines. Its the threats from across the border (Afghanistan) that require quick decimation on the border itself. This is why walls are being put up which will be monitored by FC. Dynamics of KPK have changed, while Baluchistan and Afghanistan are changing along with Iran. In a conventional war with India, all suitable assets will be shifted to east. Mi-35 will be able to see war in all sectors, except Kashmir. Light helis are already being used at high altitudes of Northern areas. 


> We don't have lexury of equipping FC with gunships and combat drones.


Same was once said about modern equipment, tanks and artillery. All are now found in FC.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> Mi-35 will be able to see war in all sectors, except Kashmir.



I think they would be best employed in Southern Kashmir sector or in Karunjhar Mountains - Bhuj.


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## Signalian

Armchair said:


> I think they would be best employed in Southern Kashmir sector or in Karunjhar Mountains - Bhuj.


If Mi-35 was good enough, why would PAA need AH-1Z for high altitude Ops say in North West area near Chitral ? 
This also laid criteria for T-129 for high alt Ops and same for WZ-10. 

I showed you a video in the thread you opened about WW2 Generals. The video was about logistical issues coz of non-commonality of equipment. If a light Heli can operate in high altitudes of GB/AJK, it should be able to operate on peaks of KPK and Baluchistan too hopefully, tests should be conducted.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> If Mi-35 was good enough, why would PAA need AH-1Z for high altitude Ops say in North West area near Chitral ?
> This also laid criteria for T-129 for high alt Ops and same for WZ-10.
> 
> I showed you a video in the thread you opened about WW2 Generals. The video was about logistical issues coz of non-commonality of equipment. If a light Heli can operate in high altitudes of GB/AJK, it should be able to operate on peaks of KPK and Baluchistan too hopefully, tests should be conducted.



I really liked that video, learned a lot from it. Southern Kashmir is not that high and there are gaps in there as well. It's about the height of KPK. Just a thin layer of hills before the Kashmir valley. See topographic map.


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## Signalian

Armchair said:


> I really liked that video, learned a lot from it. Southern Kashmir is not that high and there are gaps in there as well. It's about the height of KPK. Just a thin layer of hills before the Kashmir valley. See topographic map.


Why did India convert Mi-17 as gunship instead of using Mi-24 in Kargil war ? 
and
What if war shifted from southern to Northern Kashmir? suddenly ground troops will lose gunship support.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, if PAA picks up Z-10ME in lieu of ATAK, the ATAK-2 could be the heavyweight option in lieu of AH-1Z.


T-129 as the heavy weight option?

Z-10 max take-off weight is 7 ton
T129 max take-off weight is 5ton!

Z10 is the heavier one. What am i missing?


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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> Why did India convert Mi-17 as gunship instead of using Mi-24 in Kargil war ?
> and
> What if war shifted from southern to Northern Kashmir? suddenly ground troops will lose gunship support.



I'm not advocating buying more Mi-35s and not something else like T-129 / Z-10 / AH-1Z. Just suggesting this is the best employment of the Mi-35s that Pakistan does have. So, in the Western / northern Kashmir sectors, these other better helicopters would be used. 

Armed helicopters could also be useful in defending Punjab, or intercepting Indian armour in Southern Punjab / northern Sindh. However, the key battleground would be Kashmir, and thus they would best be used here. They could be diverted to Punjab but not northern Kashmir.



Arsalan said:


> T-129 as the heavy weight option?
> 
> Z-10 max take-off weight is 7 ton
> T129 max take-off weight is 5ton!
> 
> Z10 is the heavier one. What am i missing?



Bilal mentioned the Atak-2 which is a 10 ton helicopter. I personally like the 6 ton T-629 because it will have commonality with a Turkish utility helicopter.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> QRF.
> 
> Movement sensors, cameras, drones, foot and motorized patrols for surveillance.


I will be more happy if that will happen. But considering our budget, it seems a distinct shot. 


Signalian said:


> Clearance of terrorists and extremists from Western region has almost come to an end through different Ops conducted under different timelines. Its the threats from across the border (Afghanistan) that require quick decimation on the border itself. This is why walls are being put up which will be monitored by FC. Dynamics of KPK have changed, while Baluchistan and Afghanistan are changing along with Iran. In a conventional war with India, all suitable assets will be shifted to east. Mi-35 will be able to see war in all sectors, except Kashmir. Light helis are already being used at high altitudes of Northern areas.


I don't think things have come under complete control, particularly in Balochistan where IED blasts and ambushes are still a reality. Mi-35 are there to support special Ops as it is among fastest gunship out there. It carries troops and provide fire power at the same time. As long as a comprehensive Balochistan operation is not executed, these gunships will remain there. Once things settle down, introduce Fennec in West for QRF based operations. 


Signalian said:


> Same was once said about modern equipment, tanks and artillery. All are now found in FC.


Yes, but equipment moved to FC was obsolete for army. As far as helicopters are concerned, we already have their shortage in Army so I don't see transfer of any light attack helicopters in FC soon.



Arsalan said:


> T-129 as the heavy weight option?
> 
> Z-10 max take-off weight is 7 ton
> T129 max take-off weight is 5ton!
> 
> Z10 is the heavier one. What am i missing?


The Chinese equipment, just like Russian, usually don't display as much capabilities practically as is displayed in their infographs. T129 has proven itself by carrying max load to the limits of its flight capacity. Z10 ki saans phool jati he...

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## Blacklight

Philip the Arab said:


> This deal will never happen idk wtf leadership is thinking.


Dont worry Plan B has been activated.

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## Kabotar

What's plan B?


Blacklight said:


> Dont worry Plan B has been activated.

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## Scorpiooo

Armchair said:


> I think the solution is a Mirage - like program before a JF-17 like program. I would suggest choose a utility / light attack helicopter that was produced in the past and is now being retired. A successful design with capability that is useful today. Build an overhaul facility and "do a Mirage to it". For instance, the Gazelle, a relatively modern design and used by a large number of countries, now being retired / is retired and could be bought at salvage prices.
> 
> Bonus - it has not only been used successfully as an attack helicopter but is also a utility aircraft that can seat 4.


We already have mirages in our line. So later due its experts and financial issue Pakistan goes its extensive rebuild process
But going for used plateform which we previously now in our lines and then investing in rebuilding does not make sence technically nor financially 

Instead best option is for Pakistan to induct plateform form china or turky which can have light attach and utility with minimal operational and induction cost (offcouse long term soft loan based) additional request for ToT if get in good number



Blacklight said:


> Dont worry Plan B has been activated.


Plan B = additional zulus other then 12 or inductions of Z10ME ? @Blacklight


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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Yes, but equipment moved to FC was obsolete for army. As far as helicopters are concerned, we already have their shortage in Army so I don't see transfer of any light attack helicopters in FC soon.


Is UH-1 obsolete?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Arsalan said:


> T-129 as the heavy weight option?
> 
> Z-10 max take-off weight is 7 ton
> *T129 max take-off weight is 5ton!*
> 
> Z10 is the heavier one. What am i missing?


Hence T629 with 6 ton+ with indigenous engines and transmissions...


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Kabotar said:


> What's plan B?


Z-10ME.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Signalian said:


> Is UH-1 obsolete?


U mean our AH 1 Cobras? Yes


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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Z-10ME.


Not bad , zulu plus Z10 . Can work very well for Pakistan and ofcourse in future Atak2

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## Kingslayerr

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Z-10ME.


I do not understand. Both Kpk and balochistan have mountainous terrain and z-10 didn't perform well on high altitudes as they were underpowered (speculation). How can Z10 be selected if they cannot perform over the very terrain these helis will be used frequently?


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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> Plan B = additional zulus other then 12 or inductions of Z10ME ? @Blacklight


Yes!


Kabotar said:


> What's plan B?


Pls note above.

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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> Yes!
> 
> Pls note above.


The Americans in past has forced us to acquire an additional batch of AH-1Z instead of going for T129. And we were not willing to do that. Don't know what happened later...

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## Scorpiooo

Kingslayerr said:


> I do not understand. Both Kpk and balochistan have mountainous terrain and z-10 didn't perform well on high altitudes as they were underpowered (speculation). How can Z10 be selected if they cannot perform over the very terrain these helis will be used frequently?


Now engine power and other exhaust issue solved in Z10M

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## mikaal hassan

may be we can ask the Americans for these

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## In arduis fidelis

mikaal hassan said:


> View attachment 642605
> 
> may be we can ask the Americans for these


Is this the CGI or the real thing? I thought photos of this didn't exist.


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## Blacklight

mikaal hassan said:


> View attachment 642605
> 
> may be we can ask the Americans for these





In arduis fidelis said:


> Is this the CGI or the real thing? I thought photos of this didn't exist.

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## mikaal hassan

In arduis fidelis said:


> Is this the CGI or the real thing? I thought photos of this didn't exist.


oh it does exist nothing is hidden now from social media plus the Americans like to show off a lot now specially on TIK TOCK


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## In arduis fidelis

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 642628


Was aware of the tail rotar we had but a picture of complete bird thats surprising.


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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 642628


is it any good in real combat

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## Dreamer.

Kabotar said:


> What's plan B?


That'd be T-129.

We're down to plan C now and that's chinese.


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## 8 pass charlie

guys what is thsi 8 cell pod???

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## Lone Ranger

8 pass charlie said:


> View attachment 642762
> guys what is thsi 8 cell pod???


Roketsan Cirit ... laser guided missiles

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## xbat

Lone Ranger said:


> Roketsan Cirit ... laser guided missiles


and that is photoshopped, there is no 8 cell pod.


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## Lone Ranger

xbat said:


> and that is photoshopped, there is no 8 cell pod.


Wiki shows it can carry up to 12 cirit missiles. so, 2X6 cell pods?


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## SD 10

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 642628


what kind of chopper is that?


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## xbat

Lone Ranger said:


> Wiki shows it can carry up to 12 cirit missiles. so, 2X6 cell pods?


making 8 cell pod is not difficult and cant exceed the mtow of the heli but untill today we saw only 2 cell and 4 cell cirit pods.


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## Blacklight

SD 10 said:


> what kind of chopper is that?


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-13297846


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## polanski

Turkish Indigenous Turboshaft Engines Will Be Ready By 2020 With Ukraine’s Help: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/06/21/turkish-indigenous-turboshaft-engines-will-be-by-2020/


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## ACE OF THE AIR

mikaal hassan said:


> View attachment 642605
> 
> may be we can ask the Americans for these


For the US this is obsolete hence Pakistan could have them but we do not have any leverage for arm twisting as we have handed the blown up heli parts back.


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## Meliodas

mikaal hassan said:


> View attachment 642605
> 
> may be we can ask the Americans for these


Looks like a movie prop from zero dark thirty


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## Pakistani Fighter

8 pass charlie said:


> View attachment 642762
> guys what is thsi 8 cell pod???


Can it carry 16 ATGMs?


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## Readerdefence

mikaal hassan said:


> oh it does exist nothing is hidden now from social media plus the Americans like to show off a lot now specially on TIK TOCK


Hi these pictures been there before ticktock came into the limelight as PA at that time want to show it to Chinese also about the technology so army must have taken these it self as I do remember they try to stall the shifting back to USA for some days so engineers from both the sides can have proper look into it 
I believe so 
Thank you


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## -------

8 pass charlie said:


> View attachment 642762
> guys what is thsi 8 cell pod???



Hehehe... I photoshopped this image years ago! Suitcase of Cirits.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Combat-Master said:


> Hehehe... I photoshopped this image years ago! Suitcase of Cirits.



8 cells photoshop. There are 2 originals.


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## khanasifm

*Turkey’s ‘chronic engine problem’ is harming defense projects, warn officials*
By: [URL='https://www.defensenews.com/author/burak-ege-bekdil']Burak Ege Bekdil 

[/URL]

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2020/06/26/turkeys-chronic-engine-problem-is-harming-defense-projects-warn-officials/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> *Turkey’s ‘chronic engine problem’ is harming defense projects, warn officials*
> By: Burak Ege Bekdil
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/industr...m-is-harming-defense-projects-warn-officials/


@JamD I think this is a good example. They're forthright with themselves. You think we'd ever hear our decision makers and heads raise alarm bells about our critical deficiencies? tbh ... with this mentality, I now believe Turkey can and will develop its own turbofan engine.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @JamD I think this is a good example. They're forthright with themselves. You think we'd ever hear our decision makers and heads raise alarm bells about our critical deficiencies? tbh ... with this mentality, I now believe Turkey can and will develop its own turbofan engine.


It's our holy-cows. Turkey has a system of "feedback-control". They sense, and correct. A closed-loop system. The kind of control system used everywhere. Our's is an open-loop system with no feedback. Basically hoping everything you do works exactly as you hope.

Sorry to use a control systems analogy like old professors lol.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

A turbofan engine that we can develop very soon can only fly JL / K 8.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> A turbofan engine that we can develop very soon can only fly JL / K 8.


Sir with that mentality, you will get far, very far.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sir with that mentality, you will get far, very far.



TEI has been producing parts for GE for years, including F16 engines, Leap engines and its integration in the T700. He has been involved in the design of the largest turboprop engine in the world, developed by Europrop, and is also a manufacturer of parts for this program. It has waited for congressional approval for years to produce the T700 because it has a core-based production facility and for this, they have received more know-how than Hindus from GE have received from Safran. Unfortunately, our CEOs often give interviews and attend seminars because we do not do as secret business as you. In these (Turkish) seminars, they constantly talk about Tubitak Mam (Material Science), as well as part production techniques, etc. They talk about money spent, non-Turkish and imported engineers, different disciplines and subprojects. 400 people, mostly people with a postgraduate degree, have been dealing with this engine only since 2012 and have not even had a test in turboshaft mode. I will say that do not really expect anything soon, so from yourself.
GE - PW- Rolls Royce - Saffron, etc. See the entry dates of the companies, look at China, they still couldn't make their products smooth. I will not even give the example of India. Unfortunately, such projects are sometimes even above the governments and the era.

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## dBSPL

Let's jump in Atak T129 as pilot in real flight. 


Casus Belli said:


>

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## M.AsfandYar

JamD said:


> Sorry to use a control systems analogy like old professors lol.


Off Topic: Too much of Dr J perhaps....


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## nomi007

MaxDefense Philippines said it “got confirmation that the Philippine Air Force’s Technical Working Group (TWG) for the Attack Helicopter Acquisition Project has finally dropped the TAI T129B ATAK attack helicopter as its choice.”
“This is due to Turkey’s failure to confirm its ability to import engines and avionics from the US and UK to allow manufacture and support of the helicopters,” MaxDefense added.

Let's go to China

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## jupiter2007

nomi007 said:


> MaxDefense Philippines said it “got confirmation that the Philippine Air Force’s Technical Working Group (TWG) for the Attack Helicopter Acquisition Project has finally dropped the TAI T129B ATAK attack helicopter as its choice.”
> “This is due to Turkey’s failure to confirm its ability to import engines and avionics from the US and UK to allow manufacture and support of the helicopters,” MaxDefense added.
> 
> Let's go to China



*China doesn't have Engine that can fit into TAI T129 ATAK.
IMHO, Philippine will not go with Chinese helicopter since there is a territorial conflict between two countries. Philippine can go with European or American helicopter.*

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I'd still back Turkey's indigenous turboshaft engine. 

Yes, let's say it's 5-7 years away from serial production and a serviceable attack helicopter (T129 or T629). But it's opportunity to enter a helicopter supply chain and, by trusting Turkey so early in the process (when the engine is not mature, when it's untested) we can make a case for transfer-of-technology, production sharing, etc. 

Let's buck bad habits (e.g., rush imports, hard currency outflows, no local industry development, etc).

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd still back Turkey's indigenous turboshaft engine.
> 
> Yes, let's say it's 5-7 years away from serial production and a serviceable attack helicopter (T129 or T629). But it's opportunity to enter a helicopter supply chain and, by trusting Turkey so early in the process (when the engine is not mature, when it's untested) we can make a case for transfer-of-technology, production sharing, etc.
> 
> Let's buck bad habits (e.g., rush imports, hard currency outflows, no local industry development, etc).




For serisi production of TS1400, 2025 was not correct, it was a year that was said by examining the development program long ago. The next process depends entirely on the testing performance of the helicopter, and many parts of the licensed T700s come from outside, so it can take a long time to produce, but for the Ts1400, this will not be a problem. But considering the integration to the helicopter and the risk of desired efficiency, the China road is still much more logical for Pakistan.

Unfortunately, technology transfer is not that easy for countries like us. For example, helicopter self defense systems developed by Aselsan emerged with the knowledge gained from the Spews II project. And the America I know has already banned them for a 3rd party country (especially if it's not a nato member). The same may have happened with Leoanrdo, yes, we say that we developed the T625 - T629 series ourselves, but the Agusta project is a $ 3 billion project and a lot of know-how was received from this project, especially for dynamic parts.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> For serisi production of TS1400, 2025 was not correct, it was a year that was said by examining the development program long ago. The next process depends entirely on the testing performance of the helicopter, and many parts of the licensed T700s come from outside, so it can take a long time to produce, but for the Ts1400, this will not be a problem. But considering the integration to the helicopter and the risk of desired efficiency, the China road is still much more logical for Pakistan.
> 
> Unfortunately, technology transfer is not that easy for countries like us. For example, helicopter self defense systems developed by Aselsan emerged with the knowledge gained from the Spews II project. And the America I know has already banned them for a 3rd party country (especially if it's not a nato member). The same may have happened with Leoanrdo, yes, we say that we developed the T625 - T629 series ourselves, but the Agusta project is a $ 3 billion project and a lot of know-how was received from this project, especially for dynamic parts.


I mean ToT for understanding how to manufacture, manage supply chains, and supply inputs back to Turkey. I don't expect Turkey to give over its R&D IP, but I do like the idea of Turkish and Pakistani labs working together on future R&D initiatives.

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## Danish saleem

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd still back Turkey's indigenous turboshaft engine.
> 
> Yes, let's say it's 5-7 years away from serial production and a serviceable attack helicopter (T129 or T629). But it's opportunity to enter a helicopter supply chain and, by trusting Turkey so early in the process (when the engine is not mature, when it's untested) we can make a case for transfer-of-technology, production sharing, etc.
> 
> Let's buck bad habits (e.g., rush imports, hard currency outflows, no local industry development, etc).



Sir,

we will keep relying in US made technologies. this is for sure.


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## Mamajama

Z-10ME, what about a Rooivalk mk 2 with a Chinese engine?


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## _NOBODY_

I hope ATAK 2 won't be carrying an American engine.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 642628


Treasure trove of knowledge...

All thanks to the OBL ops by Obama.....


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## capricorn5192

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Treasure trove of knowledge...
> 
> All thanks to the OBL ops by Obama.....


Did we returned it back to America or did we used/researched it.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

capricorn5192 said:


> Did we returned it back to America or did we used/researched it.


As far as I know Pak did return the parts. However, miniscule parts are required to study the materials science of the stuffs used in that chopper. The surface curvatures could also be well documented along with other "tricks"....

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## capricorn5192

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> As far as I know Pak did return the parts. However, miniscule parts are required to study the materials science of the stuffs used in that chopper. The surface curvatures could also be well documented along with other "tricks"....


Then we can say that those "tricks" can be used as it is believed that Chinese have benefited of Tomahawk Missile recovered by Pakistan

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## M.AsfandYar

Mamajama said:


> Z-10ME, what about a Rooivalk mk 2 with a Chinese engine?


Dead Duck


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## Tamiyah

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> As far as I know Pak did return the parts. However, miniscule parts are required to study the materials science of the stuffs used in that chopper. The surface curvatures could also be well documented along with other "tricks"....


We did return it but one hour detail study and examination of a part is enough to learn atleast something. And also these things are kept classified.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

capricorn5192 said:


> Then we can say that those "tricks" can be used as it is believed that Chinese have benefited of Tomahawk Missile recovered by Pakistan


Whatever comes _Be-Dava_ is _Helal_.....

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## Ghost 125

the deal is dead, long live the Z 10 deal....


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## Tamiyah

Ghost 125 said:


> the deal is dead, long live the Z 10 deal....


Yes most probably. It would take atleast 4 years to mature its own engine platform.

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## Mamajama

M.AsfandYar said:


> Dead Duck


How so? Certainly possible to do it.


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## jupiter2007

_NOBODY_ said:


> I hope ATAK 2 won't be carrying an American engine.



It's not even in production and it uses french engine.



Ghost 125 said:


> the deal is dead, long live the Z 10 deal....



Even if we get those, it won't be in large numbers.


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## _NOBODY_

jupiter2007 said:


> It's not even in production and it uses french engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if we get those, it won't be in large numbers.


Can provide proof for your claim that ATAK 2 will be using a French engine? If Z-10 gets chosen then we will definitely be buying them huge numbers.


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## jupiter2007

Ghost 125 said:


> the deal is dead, long live the Z 10 deal....





_NOBODY_ said:


> Can provide proof for your claim that ATAK 2 will be using a French engine? If Z-10 gets chosen then we will definitely be buying them huge numbers.



*apology, I was talking about Rooivalk Attack Helicopter
*
https://www.army-technology.com/projects/rooivalk/


*Rooivalk Attack Helicopter*
SHARE
*CREW*
Pilot, weapon systems officer
*MISSIONS*
Anti-armour, ground suppression, anti-helicopter, ferry, reconnaissance and counter-insurgency
*MAIN ROTOR TO TAIL ROTOR*
18,732mm
*MAIN ROTOR DIAMETER*
15,580mm
*OVERALL HEIGHT*
5,187mm
*LENGTH*
16.39m
*CREW*
Pilot, weapon systems officer
*MISSIONS*
Anti-armour, ground suppression, anti-helicopter, ferry, reconnaissance and counter-insurgency
*MAIN ROTOR TO TAIL ROTOR*
18,732mm
*MAIN ROTOR DIAMETER*
15,580mm
*OVERALL HEIGHT*
5,187mm
*MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT*
8,750kg
*MINIMUM OPERATING WEIGHT*
5,730kg
*MAXIMUM INTERNAL FUEL*
1,469kg
*EMPTY WEIGHT*
5,910kg
*POWERPLANT*
*2 x Turbomeca Makila 1K2 turboshaft engines*


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## Mamajama

jupiter2007 said:


> What do you mean by proof?
> https://www.army-technology.com/projects/rooivalk/
> 
> 
> *Rooivalk Attack Helicopter*
> SHARE
> *CREW*
> Pilot, weapon systems officer
> *MISSIONS*
> Anti-armour, ground suppression, anti-helicopter, ferry, reconnaissance and counter-insurgency
> *MAIN ROTOR TO TAIL ROTOR*
> 18,732mm
> *MAIN ROTOR DIAMETER*
> 15,580mm
> *OVERALL HEIGHT*
> 5,187mm
> *LENGTH*
> 16.39m
> *CREW*
> Pilot, weapon systems officer
> *MISSIONS*
> Anti-armour, ground suppression, anti-helicopter, ferry, reconnaissance and counter-insurgency
> *MAIN ROTOR TO TAIL ROTOR*
> 18,732mm
> *MAIN ROTOR DIAMETER*
> 15,580mm
> *OVERALL HEIGHT*
> 5,187mm
> *MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT*
> 8,750kg
> *MINIMUM OPERATING WEIGHT*
> 5,730kg
> *MAXIMUM INTERNAL FUEL*
> 1,469kg
> *EMPTY WEIGHT*
> 5,910kg
> *POWERPLANT*
> *2 x Turbomeca Makila 1K2 turboshaft engines*


This is rooivalk 2 not atak 2. I'm sure Pakistan could get Chinese engine and build it in country with ToT.


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## jupiter2007

Mamajama said:


> This is rooivalk 2 not atak 2. I'm sure Pakistan could get Chinese engine and build it in country with ToT.



No one gives 100% TOT, plus you can't put Toyota engine in BMW.


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## Mamajama

jupiter2007 said:


> No one gives 100% TOT, plus you can't put Toyota engine in BMW.


It will only be rooivalk in name but have huge modifications. They will give ToT probably a lot considering the situation Denel is in now.

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## jupiter2007

Mamajama said:


> It will only be rooivalk in name but have huge modifications. They will give ToT probably a lot considering the situation Denel is in now.


 
Are you saying to have Denel helicopter with Chinese WZ16 engine?


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## Mamajama

jupiter2007 said:


> Are you saying to have Denel helicopter with Chinese WZ16 engine?


Why not?


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## denel

Mamajama said:


> Why not?


Why do you need CHinese engine; we can use engines Safran without issues

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## jupiter2007

Mamajama said:


> Why not?



WZ16 is still under development. Z-10 with WZ16 engine will require extensive testing before PA will make a decision about purchasing Chinese helicopter.

As far as Denel helicopter is concerned, there are too many ifs. Pakistan has to be committed if they want to build their own helicopter and willing to spend money to develop it.


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## LKJ86

jupiter2007 said:


> Z-10 with WZ16 engine will require extensive testing before PA will make a decision about purchasing Chinese helicopter.


Z-10 will never use WZ-16.


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## denel

jupiter2007 said:


> WZ16 is still under development. Z-10 with WZ16 engine will require extensive testing before PA will make a decision about purchasing Chinese helicopter.
> 
> As far as Denel helicopter is concerned, there are too many ifs. Pakistan has to be committed if they want to build their own helicopter and willing to spend money to develop it.


The problem is PAC never wants to invest in a true manufacturing end to end. Any development requires monies and vision. If this route is ever taken you get Rooivalk plus Oryx medium lift in a single go.

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## jupiter2007

denel said:


> The problem is PAC never wants to invest in a true manufacturing end to end. Any development requires monies and vision. If this route is ever taken you get Rooivalk plus Oryx medium lift in a single go.



That's very true.....


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## Mamajama

denel said:


> Why do you need CHinese engine; we can use engines Safran without issues


French may have problems with Pakistan and Indians. For example let's say India says we will buy 100 rafales if you dont let pakistan have the engines. Dont you think they will be obliged to agree by the government?


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## denel

Mamajama said:


> French may have problems with Pakistan and Indians. For example let's say India says we will buy 100 rafales if you dont let pakistan have the engines. Dont you think they will be obliged to agree by the government?


As I noted, you have option to go safran route or use the SA produced Makila engines or get via Romania. Note WZ-6 engine is a fit for this utility without many modification as it is a derivative.

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## Mamajama

denel said:


> As I noted, you have option to go safran route or use the SA produced Makila engines or get via Romania.


Denel future looks bleak, I don't know how much longer it will survive especially with Du Toit leaving. Many engineers have left to go the Arab or EU countries sadly.


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## denel

Mamajama said:


> Denel future looks bleak, I don't know how much longer it will survive especially with Du Toit leaving. Many engineers have left to go the Arab or EU countries sadly.


Frankly, Denel was gutted by the Guptas and Zuma era. Not concerned as most of the engineers are actually at Paramount and other consortiums.

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## Mamajama

denel said:


> Frankly, Denel was gutted by the Guptas and Zuma era. Not concerned as most of the engineers are actually at Paramount and other consortiums.


How long do you think the Turks are going to take to have their turboshaft that can be used for ATAK? 5 years or more?


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## denel

Mamajama said:


> How long do you think the Turks are going to take to have their turboshaft that can be used for ATAK? 5 years or more?


It is hard to say, but it could be more given the geopolitics at play. I look back 25 yrs back when we offered Rooivalk to the Turks! - we were pushed out due to pressure on the Turks by the EU carrot and American interests. Still, many regular flights from Turkish A/F are coming every week to pick up a lot of materials locally - looks like artillery

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## jupiter2007

Mamajama said:


> French may have problems with Pakistan and Indians. For example let's say India says we will buy 100 rafales if you dont let pakistan have the engines. Dont you think they will be obliged to agree by the government?



French are no longer reliable defense partner and we should avoid them as much as possible.
We should work with Italy, Spain, South Africa, Turkey, Romania, China and Russia.

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## Mamajama

jupiter2007 said:


> French are no longer reliable defense partner and we should avoid them as much as possible.
> We should work with Italy, Spain, South Africa, Turkey, Romania, China and Russia.


Unless they give Pakistan local production in some part it is a no go in my opinion. Question is will China give that for the Z-10ME?


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## denel

Mamajama said:


> Unless they give Pakistan local production in some part it is a no go in my opinion. Question is will China give that for the Z-10ME?


From ourside, we are looking for this to happen, it was clearly stated to Pak leadership many times when your prior visited that TOT is part of any deal.

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## Mamajama

denel said:


> From ourside, we are looking for this to happen, it was clearly stated to Pak leadership many times when your prior visited that TOT is part of any deal.


Sadly, I think that ship has sailed by now.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Did the US ban engine sale to Pakistan?


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## Mamajama

Austin Powers said:


> Did the US ban engine sale to Pakistan?


Blocked.


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## Figaro

Austin Powers said:


> Did the US ban engine sale to Pakistan?


Even if the US allowed engine sales to Pakistan, the latter would likely not use them because there is always the threat of sanctions. The more advanced tech is simply not enough to offset the immense sanctions risk.

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## Mamajama

Figaro said:


> Even if the US allowed engine sales to Pakistan, the latter would likely not use them because there is always the threat of sanctions. The more advanced tech is simply not enough to offset the immense sanctions risk.


Pakistan shouldn't wait for the turk engine then right? The have the option of Chinese helicopter Z-10 though?


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## Figaro

Mamajama said:


> Pakistan shouldn't wait for the turk engine then right? The have the option of Chinese helicopter Z-10 though?


I highly doubt Turkey would have a F-110 class engine out by the end of the decade ... maybe in 20 years. People always underestimate aeroengine development. Building an engine demonstrator/verification machine is relatively easy but converting that to a mass production version is by far the hardest part.

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## Mamajama

Figaro said:


> I highly doubt Turkey would have a F-110 class engine out by the end of the decade ... maybe in 20 years. People always underestimate aeroengine development.


I mean the turboshaft engine for the t-129 not the F-16 type engine.


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## Figaro

Mamajama said:


> I mean the turboshaft engine for the t-129 not the F-16 type engine.


Oh ... I'm not sure. Turboshafts should be considerably easier than turbofan engines. Even then, they are still pretty advanced. I'm not sure if Turkey can get one up to the performance and reliability of the turboshaft they're trying to replace.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Pakistan already have lots of Wing Loong 2 attack drones which are less costly, easier to train pilots, safer for pilots. Helicopters are mostly outdated. A better option for Pakistan is to get more Wing Loong 2 attack drones.


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## denel

Mamajama said:


> Sadly, I think that ship has sailed by now.


Yes it has. I still shake my head, Pak is crying for ToT on mine proof vehicles. Man, we can easily ToT this. We do it across so many countries and yet no takers in Pak who will take American useless garbage over real stuff.

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## Mamajama

denel said:


> Yes it has. I still shake my head, Pak is crying for ToT on mine proof vehicles. Man, we can easily ToT this. We do it across so many countries and yet no takers in Pak who will take American useless garbage over real stuff.


When you (rsa) cooperate with the Emirates do you give them local production in some way or just let them assemble the Umbani bomb in kd kits? Not sure if you give ToT for just anything in rsa.


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## Ghost 125

Austin Powers said:


> Pakistan already have lots of Wing Loong 2 attack drones.


no we dont


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## python-000

So there only one option left for attack helicopter Z-10ME...


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## cabatli_53

Figaro said:


> I highly doubt Turkey would have a F-110 class engine out by the end of the decade ... maybe in 20 years. People always underestimate aeroengine development. Building an engine demonstrator/verification machine is relatively easy but converting that to a mass production version is by far the hardest part.




Feasibility studies of Turkish institutes indicate 12-14 years time scale to develop domestic turbofan engines (F110 class) from scratch. With know-how help to be received from RR (most likely), It was planned to reduce this time ~ 8-10 years.

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## denel

Mamajama said:


> When you (rsa) cooperate with the Emirates do you give them local production in some way or just let them assemble the Umbani bomb in kd kits? Not sure if you give ToT for just anything in rsa.


They do not have most of the know how etc. Mostly it is KDs. Same goes for vehicles as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> They do not have most of the know how etc. Mostly it is KDs. Same goes for vehicles as well.


I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.

So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.

In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.

The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.

But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.

Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).

Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.

The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).

However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.

These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.

Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.

This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.
> 
> So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.
> 
> In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.
> 
> The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.
> 
> But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.
> 
> Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.
> 
> The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).
> 
> However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.
> 
> These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.
> 
> Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.
> 
> This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.


You hit the nail on the head. It is beyond moronic to see the begging bowl mentality to get equipment. mine proof vehicles - man, just look at 1st gen - Buffels - Those are so simple in design, even Sri Lanka with no manufacturing forte can clone a copy. Instead, it pains me to see the garbage vehicles gotten from all various hand me downs.

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## hussain0216

denel said:


> Yes it has. I still shake my head, Pak is crying for ToT on mine proof vehicles. Man, we can easily ToT this. We do it across so many countries and yet no takers in Pak who will take American useless garbage over real stuff.




Could you up your "corrupt pay off" budget

South Africans obviously don't know how it works


If you up your pay off budget we would buy a trash can on wheels with a sling shot bolted on top

Of course only if tot is involved

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.
> 
> So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.
> 
> In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.
> 
> The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.
> 
> But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.
> 
> Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.
> 
> The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).
> 
> However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.
> 
> These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.
> 
> Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.
> 
> This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.


Bilal, you need to check OTT as well. These people are doing the lower tier vehicles - even these will work. If ex-denel employees can colaborate and get a 3rd company going from scratch why cant anyone in Pak?

https://ott.co.za/?gclid=CjwKCAjwjq...2aZJp8h9wrklTjB0swoGgTzLuCtoVKRoC6PEQAvD_BwE#

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## denel

hussain0216 said:


> Could you up your "corrupt pay off" budget
> 
> South Africans obviously don't know how it works
> 
> 
> If you up your pay off budget we would buy a trash can on wheels with a sling shot bolted on top
> 
> Of course only if tot is involved


Trust me, we know - this is part of any arms deals; the issue is many europeans/US consortiums pay more to sell garbage.

Just look at OTT products - some of the vehicles are needed right now; instead you get useless US clones. Even OTT refurbished are pretty cheap to buy.


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## Figaro

cabatli_53 said:


> Feasibility studies of Turkish institutes indicate 12-14 years time scale to develop domestic turbofan engines (F110 class) from scratch. With know-how help to be received from RR (most likely), It was planned to reduce this time ~ 8-10 years.


We shall see ... but the leap from an engine demonstrator to one that is fit for mass production is a very large one. Of course best of luck to Turkey. But I still think the best solution is just to purchase aereongines off the shelf rather than spending decades on creating an indigenous gas turbine industry. Even the Japanese XF-9, a more advanced engine than the F110 GE-132, has been stuck at the demonstrator stage for a while now, with no solid plans to move forward. Indeed, it is doubtful it will ever move into mass production.


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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> We shall see ... but the leap from an engine demonstrator to one that is fit for mass production is a very large one. Of course best of luck to Turkey. But I still think the best solution is just to purchase aereongines off the shelf rather than spending decades on creating an indigenous gas turbine industry. Even the Japanese XF-9, a more advanced engine than the F110 GE-132, has been stuck at the demonstrator stage for a while now, with no solid plans to move forward. Indeed, it is doubtful it will ever move into mass production.


China used hundreds of J-11B and J-11BS figther jets to make WS-10 engine mature eventually.
Do you think Japan has a such opportunity?

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## cabatli_53

Temel Kotil;


We will solve engine problem and deliver T-129 Atak to Pakistan.
In addition to T-129 Atak, We are working to carry out different studies with Pakistan. Not only T-129 Atak but also T-625 utility, T-629 and Atak-2 platforms. 
We (TAI) are establishing a tech center inside PAC KAMRA. 
He added We should form more cooperation with Pakistan... Helicopter programs, Tf-X MMU, Hürjet...etc
https://www.savunmasanayist.com/tus...ik-aciklamalar/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Temel Kotil;
> 
> 
> We will solve engine problem and deliver T-129 Atak to Pakistan.
> In addition to T-129 Atak, We are working to carry out different studies with Pakistan. Not only T-129 Atak but also T-625 utility, T-629 and Atak-2 platforms.
> We (TAI) are establishing a tech center inside PAC KAMRA.
> He added We should form more cooperation with Pakistan... Helicopter programs, Tf-X MMU, Hürjet...etc
> https://www.savunmasanayist.com/tus...ik-aciklamalar/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Those are all flashy programs for sure, but IMHO, the ones that can be the biggest in scope are the T625 utility and the 10-ton transport helicopter program. Following 2030, a lot of the PA's helicopters are going to look old. 

@JamD

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## Aamir Hussain

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.
> 
> So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.
> 
> In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.
> 
> The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.
> 
> But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.
> 
> Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.
> 
> The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).
> 
> However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.
> 
> These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.
> 
> Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.
> 
> This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.


Very aptly put Bilal. This is the way to go. If private sector is really allowed to come in there would be exponential growth and cut down of overheads. 

For example take the basic twin cabin and build a urban patrol unit out of it. The chassis, gearbox and engine can remain, all he rest can be made over the bare chassis. Huge demand from police and rangers.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aamir Hussain said:


> Very aptly put Bilal. This is the way to go. If private sector is really allowed to come in there would be exponential growth and cut down of overheads.
> 
> For example take the basic twin cabin and build a urban patrol unit out of it. The chassis, gearbox and engine can remain, all he rest can be made over the bare chassis. Huge demand from police and rangers.


Yep. There's potential across the board: tracked IFVs, 8x8 AFVs, 4x4 LAVs, tracked SPHs, wheeled SPHs, etc.

In terms of helicopters, I'd consider having PAC and TAI co-invest in setting-up a separate company for producing and maintaining all rotary-wing assets in Pakistan. It can start by supporting a T129 program (if it happens), and in time, grow to take on some workshare in the T625, ATAK-2, 10-ton helicopter, etc.

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## python-000

cabatli_53 said:


> Temel Kotil;
> 
> 
> We will solve engine problem and deliver T-129 Atak to Pakistan.
> In addition to T-129 Atak, We are working to carry out different studies with Pakistan. Not only T-129 Atak but also T-625 utility, T-629 and Atak-2 platforms.
> We (TAI) are establishing a tech center inside PAC KAMRA.
> He added We should form more cooperation with Pakistan... Helicopter programs, Tf-X MMU, Hürjet...etc
> https://www.savunmasanayist.com/tus...ik-aciklamalar/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Wow this is a great news...
.

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## mingle

python-000 said:


> Wow this is a great news...
> .


It's a great news If this Happens it would solve PAA problem in short and long run can replace Puma with T625 also Atak 2 would be a great compliment

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Those are all flashy programs for sure, but IMHO, the ones that can be the biggest in scope are the T625 utility and the 10-ton transport helicopter program. Following 2030, a lot of the PA's helicopters are going to look old.
> 
> @JamD


Pakistan needs a mi-17 & PUMA replacement and it needs a JV.
The requirement is 200 given size of heli fleet

It will be smart to find a patner

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## Meliodas

cabatli_53 said:


> Temel Kotil;
> 
> 
> We will solve engine problem and deliver T-129 Atak to Pakistan.
> In addition to T-129 Atak, We are working to carry out different studies with Pakistan. Not only T-129 Atak but also T-625 utility, T-629 and Atak-2 platforms.
> We (TAI) are establishing a tech center inside PAC KAMRA.
> He added We should form more cooperation with Pakistan... Helicopter programs, Tf-X MMU, Hürjet...etc
> https://www.savunmasanayist.com/tus...ik-aciklamalar/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


*will*


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/TAI-T129-ATAK/2923

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan needs a mi-17 & PUMA replacement and it needs a JV.
> The requirement is 200 given size of heli fleet
> 
> It will be smart to find a patner


Joining Turkey on their 10-ton transport helicopter may be a wise idea. It seems very similar in concept to the NH-90 -- i.e., twin-engine, aft-ramp, and carry 20+ people. This can be a versatile platform. Yes, it's some years away from materializing, but seriously, is the PA in a hurry? No. We should plan ahead and loop our industry into this 10-ton helicopter; from 2030 to 2050 we can build a fleet of 200+ units, and our industry can drive production.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Meliodas said:


> *will*


Where there is a "will" there is a "way"....

And, guide us on the straight way, on the way of those YOU have favored, not of those who have gone astray and attained YOUR RAGE....

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Joining Turkey on their 10-ton transport helicopter may be a wise idea. It seems very similar in concept to the NH-90 -- i.e., twin-engine, aft-ramp, and carry 20+ people. This can be a versatile platform. Yes, it's some years away from materializing, but seriously, is the PA in a hurry? No. We should plan ahead and loop our industry into this 10-ton helicopter; from 2030 to 2050 we can build a fleet of 200+ units, and our industry can drive production.


I doubt it PA is probably sleeping and now has a good supplier china..
As a wise general put it "..someone will sell it, we will buy it. Why waste time on developing..."
Ayub khan on nuclear weapons in 1960s from shahab Nama

And we know how that turned out..

What pakistan needs to know that even china can someday turn away..there are no constant friends or foes

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## ziaulislam

i said early on instead of gunship we should have signed on to the transport chopper. i had feeling the engine will be blocked. i said it very early, and turns out i was right

the demand is 200+ its an win-win for both turkey and Pakistan. with turkey needing numbers, Pakistan being one of the largest armies in the world is in a unique position to do so..

unfortunately our establishment doesnt really think this way, seems we will get those from china..

jf-17 was an exception it was 1990s when we were desparate..i doubt that line of thinking exists at all

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> i said early on instead of gunship we should have signed on to the transport chopper. i had feeling the engine will be blocked. i said it very early, and turns out i was right
> 
> the demand is 200+ its an win-win for both turkey and Pakistan. with turkey needing numbers, Pakistan being one of the largest armies in the world is in a unique position to do so..
> 
> unfortunately our establishment doesnt really think this way, seems we will get those from china..
> 
> jf-17 was an exception it was 1990s when we were desparate..i doubt that line of thinking exists at all


Yep. Just like in 2016, instead of 8 F-16s we should've asked to use the FMF on 2 C-130Js. Similarly, instead of AH-1Zs the PAA could've asked for S-70s (or just put those funds on C-130J so that the PAF can get 4-6 new aircraft).

Basically, with the US we should avoid asking for weapons that Congress will see as offensive; rather, focus on things that can be used for HADR.

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## Akh1112

ziaulislam said:


> i said early on instead of gunship we should have signed on to the transport chopper. i had feeling the engine will be blocked. i said it very early, and turns out i was right
> 
> the demand is 200+ its an win-win for both turkey and Pakistan. with turkey needing numbers, Pakistan being one of the largest armies in the world is in a unique position to do so..
> 
> unfortunately our establishment doesnt really think this way, seems we will get those from china..
> 
> jf-17 was an exception it was 1990s when we were desparate..i doubt that line of thinking exists at all




I think its unfair to blame the engines on us. The engines were blocked as a result of Turkey's deteriorating relations with the USA. The US has not blocked spares or engine sales for our other platforms, i.e ada class.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> I think its unfair to blame the engines on us. The engines were blocked as a result of Turkey's deteriorating relations with the USA. The US has not blocked spares or engine sales for our other platforms, i.e ada class.


One of the design changes in the MILGEM-J is CODAD (vs. CODAG in Ada), so the PN will likely get MTUs from Germany. However, there are many other platforms in our inventory that US engines, and we haven't had issues sourcing them. The ATAK issue has absolutely more to do with Turkey and US, and we just had the bad luck of ending up in the middle of it.

That said, with each day the LHTEC engine is mattering less. Why? Because with each day the Turks are getting close to completing their own turboshaft. @T-123456 and @cabatli_53 could correct me, but it seems the TS1400 seems right on schedule. It'll be a serviceable engine by 2025, and will available for the T625, T629, and ATAK. 

I say we stick the course, but now work with the Turks to actually set-up a co-production plant in Pakistan. We can support them domestically and take up some of the supply chain.

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One of the design changes in the MILGEM-J is CODAD (vs. CODAG in Ada), so the PN will likely get MTUs from Germany. However, there are many other platforms in our inventory that US engines, and we haven't had issues sourcing them. The ATAK issue has absolutely more to do with Turkey and US, and we just had the bad luck of ending up in the middle of it.


Definitely, we could try to pressure the US into releasing the Zulu's and engines by making the argument that these are vital to effective COIN ops etc. Dunno why nothing has been tried


On the note of the TS-1400. While yes, it is on schedule, its kinda a pain in the backside since itll need to be re evaluated, itll probably be costlier, less support/less of a supply chain than the LHTEC ones etc

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## ziaulislam

Akh1112 said:


> I think its unfair to blame the engines on us. The engines were blocked as a result of Turkey's deteriorating relations with the USA. The US has not blocked spares or engine sales for our other platforms, i.e ada class.


no, they would have been blocked regardless, it has nothing to do with turkey-usa relationships

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## _NOBODY_

Akh1112 said:


> Definitely, we could try to pressure the US into releasing the Zulu's and engines by making the argument that these are vital to effective COIN ops etc. Dunno why nothing has been tried
> 
> 
> On the note of the TS-1400. While yes, it is on schedule, its kinda a pain in the backside since itll need to be re evaluated, itll probably be costlier, less support/less of a supply chain than the LHTEC ones etc


That won't work, US would rather have us buy their attack helicopters instead.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. Just like in 2016, instead of 8 F-16s we should've asked to use the FMF on 2 C-130Js. Similarly, instead of AH-1Zs the PAA could've asked for S-70s (or just put those funds on C-130J so that the PAF can get 4-6 new aircraft).
> 
> Basically, with the US we should avoid asking for weapons that Congress will see as offensive; rather, focus on things that can be used for HADR.



Agreed; sub-systems that will be enablers to modern methods of carrying out operations; shorten the OODA loop. Perhaps, technologies that would enable ground troops to better communicate and conduct ISR with each other and send fire data, as well as transport systems like the C-130J and MAT-V, and transport helicopters for commando units.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> Agreed; sub-systems that will be enablers to modern methods of carrying out operations; shorten the OODA loop. Perhaps, technologies that would enable ground troops to better communicate and conduct ISR with each other and send fire data, as well as transport systems like the C-130J and MAT-V, and transport helicopters for commando units.


Yep. Raytheon SAR/GMTI, new Harris SDRs, DPV/FAVs and the 'little things' that really set US SOF ops apart from all others should be on our list. In most cases, I expect these things might not even pass by DSCA due to them being small contracts and/or obscure.

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## Irfan Baloch

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.
> 
> So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.
> 
> In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.
> 
> The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.
> 
> But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.
> 
> Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.
> 
> The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).
> 
> However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.
> 
> These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.
> 
> Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.
> 
> This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.


this should be the official bible for our defence production / procurement program.
I suspect there are redundant elements within POF and HIT built overtime which create massive overheads private sector partnership of qualified and vetted organisations can benefit in the long run.

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Joining Turkey on their 10-ton transport helicopter may be a wise idea. It seems very similar in concept to the NH-90 -- i.e., twin-engine, aft-ramp, and carry 20+ people. This can be a versatile platform. Yes, it's some years away from materializing, but seriously, is the PA in a hurry? No. We should plan ahead and loop our industry into this 10-ton helicopter; from 2030 to 2050 we can build a fleet of 200+ units, and our industry can drive production.




Atak-2 and 10t utility helicopters (sister copters by using same engine/transmission) will be built on two version. Naval variants (Atak-2N example) will be delivered for Navy’s LHD platforms.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep. Raytheon SAR/GMTI, new Harris SDRs, DPV/FAVs and the 'little things' that really set US SOF ops apart from all others should be on our list. In most cases, I expect these things might not even pass by DSCA due to them being small contracts and/or obscure.


What about small upgrades to the F-16s. The radar maybe sensitive technology, but a modern towed decoy or the Legion IRST pod, as well as smaller software/hardware upgrades like AutoGCAS to allow the F-16 to be able to carry out map of the earth strikes.

The Legion Pod would be a considerable upgrade; especially if it can detect the enemy fighters in the IR spectrum, at ranges, comparable to being detected by the modern SABR radar. Couple it with a Turkish or domestic equivalent to the Meteor and we reach parity at minimal cost and fuss from congressional approval. The experience can go into the JF-17 and project AZM, as well as missile development (perhaps a seeker that has a primary IR seeker, because it has a datalink to the launching aircraft, and then a active radar seeker embedded in the airframe in a certain way).

I know i’ve posted this a few times in other threads but it really illustrates the point
Page 7 where the modern IRST pod is nearly as good as the APG-80
https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/2019/53/matecconf_easn2019_04001.pdf

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## Mamajama

FuturePAF said:


> The Legion Pod would be a considerable upgrade; especially if it can detect the enemy fighters in the IR spectrum, at ranges, comparable to being detected by the modern SABR radar. Couple it with a Turkish or domestic equivalent to the Meteor and we reach parity at minimal cost and fuss from congressional approva


You would need US approval for these upgrades to F-16.

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## FuturePAF

Mamajama said:


> You would need US approval for these upgrades to F-16.



They maybe get less fuss from congress. They can be chalked up as preventing friendly fire or firing upon a civilian airliner as in the Spice Jet incident.

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## Mamajama

FuturePAF said:


> They maybe get less fuss from congress. They can be chalked up as preventing friendly fire or firing upon a civilian airliner as in the Spice Jet incident.


Talking about Turkish meteor or domestic equivalent meteor. They would rather sell you Aim-120D than allow that.

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## FuturePAF

Mamajama said:


> Talking about Turkish meteor or domestic equivalent meteor. They would rather sell you Aim-120D than allow that.



PAF would love to get it, if only they’d offer it.

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## Mamajama

FuturePAF said:


> PAF would love to get it, if only they’d offer it.


Is c7 good enough for PAF or you think D?


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## FuturePAF

Mamajama said:


> Is c7 good enough for PAF or you think D?


They take the best they are offered.

Also supporting the regional parity is a litmus test for Pak-US relations.

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## Readerdefence

Hi sometimes I feel like eventually army will get Z10 with whatever upgrades been done to them 
ATAK might be coming but not before Z10 as some of the Z10s recent videos of landing on their naval ships might come across to use them on 54p as well for naval role 
As Chinese are already ahead in running against Turks in engine developments they will take lesser time to develop a more powerful engine even if later on army has to use them in Z10 
Thank you


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## cabatli_53

Acc to last introduction video revealed by TEI, TS-1500 turboshaft engine produces 1660hp power.

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## cabatli_53



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## Armchair

Time given to Turkey for new engines is about to expire...


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> Time given to Turkey for new engines is about to expire...


If you're referring to the 1-year window, it wasn't for Turkey to secure, integrate, and certify new engines, but to figure out the CTS800 issue. If not, the PAA will (if it hasn't already) get Z-10Es. However, I do think the T129 will become a factor again once the TS1400 comes alive.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Acc to last introduction video revealed by TEI, TS-1500 turboshaft engine produces 1660hp power.
> 
> View attachment 660448


I hope they don't drop the T129 family in favour of ATAK-2/T629. I would really love to see a 7+ ton variant based on this design -- something really close to the AH-1Z.

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## kursed

WASHINGTON — Four key members of Congress, either individually or collectively, have quietly frozen all major U.S. arms sales to Turkey for nearly two years in a move to pressure Ankara to abandon its Russian-built S-400 air defense system, Defense News has learned.

The legislative action, which has not been previously reported, is another sign of the deeply fractured relationship between the two NATO allies, a disruption that has already led to Turkey’s expulsion from the F-35 joint strike fighter program.

While it is unclear exactly how many potential sales have been held back, at least two significant deals are in limbo: a follow-on contract for F-16 structural upgrades and export licenses for U.S.-made engines that Turkey needs to complete a $1.5 billion sale of attack helicopters to Pakistan. Historically, the United States is the largest exporter of weapons to Turkey.

https://www.defensenews.com/breakin...us-arms-sales-to-turkey-for-nearly-two-years/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> WASHINGTON — Four key members of Congress, either individually or collectively, have quietly frozen all major U.S. arms sales to Turkey for nearly two years in a move to pressure Ankara to abandon its Russian-built S-400 air defense system, Defense News has learned.
> 
> The legislative action, which has not been previously reported, is another sign of the deeply fractured relationship between the two NATO allies, a disruption that has already led to Turkey’s expulsion from the F-35 joint strike fighter program.
> 
> While it is unclear exactly how many potential sales have been held back, at least two significant deals are in limbo: a follow-on contract for F-16 structural upgrades and export licenses for U.S.-made engines that Turkey needs to complete a $1.5 billion sale of attack helicopters to Pakistan. Historically, the United States is the largest exporter of weapons to Turkey.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/breakin...us-arms-sales-to-turkey-for-nearly-two-years/


Well, welcome to the club Turkey

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## Zapper

Armchair said:


> Time given to Turkey for new engines is about to expire...


Turkey should've approached some European firm for engines rather than relying on the US. We use the HAL/Turbomeca Shakti-1H1 derived from Safran Ardiden turboshaft engines on our LCH

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zapper said:


> Turkey should've approached some European firm for engines rather than relying on the US. We use the HAL/Turbomeca Shakti-1H1 derived from Safran Ardiden turboshaft engines on our LCH


Turkey's got issues with France (and vice-versa).

I guess the idea of Pakistan buying the CTS800 separately from the US and then assembling the T129 via CKDs at PAC didn't pan out (though I imagine they didn't even explore it as a possibility).

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## Zapper

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Turkey's got issues with France (and vice-versa).
> 
> I guess the idea of Pakistan buying the CTS800 separately from the US and then assembling the T129 via CKDs at PAC didn't pan out (though I imagine they didn't even explore it as a possibility).


CTS800 still has Honeywell's involvement which is American. As long as you have Honeywell or P&W in the mix, US would block it. Turkey's issues with France and India's long standing relation with Safran also wouldn't let you get a French engine. Another option is to get something outta UK's Rolls Royce independent of American involvement or work out something with China for an engine where China's engine and Turkey's fuselage are integrated at PAC...except that Turkey & China aren't best buddies either so you'd have a bit of convincing to do and China will pressurize y'all to go with the Z-10

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Zapper said:


> CTS800 still has Honeywell's involvement which is American. As long as you have Honeywell or P&W in the mix, US would block it. Turkey's issues with France and India's long standing relation with Safran also wouldn't let you get a French engine. Another option is to get something outta UK's Rolls Royce independent of American involvement or work out something with China for an engine where China's engine and Turkey's fuselage are integrated at PAC...except that Turkey & China aren't best buddies either so you'd have a bit of convincing to do and China will convince y'all to go with the Z-10



The Z-10 was not chosen because Chinese engines doesn't enough for high altitude.


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## M.AsfandYar

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> The Z-10 was not chosen because Chinese engines doesn't enough for high altitude.


it had other problems as well i think @Dazzler


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

kursed said:


> WASHINGTON — Four key members of Congress, either individually or collectively, have quietly frozen all major U.S. arms sales to Turkey for nearly two years in a move to pressure Ankara to abandon its Russian-built S-400 air defense system, Defense News has learned.
> 
> The legislative action, which has not been previously reported, is another sign of the deeply fractured relationship between the two NATO allies, a disruption that has already led to Turkey’s expulsion from the F-35 joint strike fighter program.
> 
> While it is unclear exactly how many potential sales have been held back, at least two significant deals are in limbo: a follow-on contract for F-16 structural upgrades and export licenses for U.S.-made engines that Turkey needs to complete a $1.5 billion sale of attack helicopters to Pakistan. Historically, the United States is the largest exporter of weapons to Turkey.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/breakin...us-arms-sales-to-turkey-for-nearly-two-years/


The more sanctions the better for Turkey....

You can't put pressure on the Turkish folks!! With 70 cents in the treasury they went for the liberation of the Northern Cyprus via amphibious assault...

As for S-400, 70 years of the Russian unique specialty has been channeled to Turkey in 7 months, which will make her own SIPER AD system even more deadly...

All US/Western finished defense products are like the Trojan Horses, and the worst part is you need to buy them and finance their maintenance....

_Hodri Meydan_....

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## python-000

M.AsfandYar said:


> it had other problems as well i think @Dazzler


But i think China already coverup all the weaknisses & flaws in its new version 
Z-10ME by the requirement of PAA...


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## Salza

Pakistan, Turkey and US have made some positive progress over T129 helicopter sale. DGISPR

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## MIRauf

python-000 said:


> But i think China already coverup all the weaknisses & flaws in its new version
> Z-10ME by the requirement of PAA...



Coverup ? or did you mean fixed / rectified ?

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## python-000

MIRauf said:


> Coverup ? or did you mean fixed / rectified ?


Yes i mean fixed...

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## TOPGUN

We are still taking about this ? don't think its going to happen time to move along and find another heli.

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## mingle

Salza said:


> Pakistan, Turkey and US have made some positive progress over T129 helicopter sale. DGISPR


I read TAI head statement he was very upbeat I hope engine issue will resolve its fantastic Heli for high attitude warfare can interpret like more royality or little extra money from Heli price for engine also possible PAA will buy some more Zulus.

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## beijingwalker

*Congress has secretly blocked US arms sales to Turkey for nearly two years*
By: Valerie Insinna, Joe Gould & Aaron Mehta
August 12 at 11:19 AM
https://www.defensenews.com/breakin...us-arms-sales-to-turkey-for-nearly-two-years/


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## beijingwalker

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> The Z-10 was not chosen because Chinese engines doesn't enough for high altitude.



Swarms of Chinese attack helicopters launch day and night real combat exercises on the Tibetan Plateau.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

beijingwalker said:


> Swarms of Chinese attack helicopters launch day and night real combat exercises on the Tibetan Plateau.



By high altitude I don't mean 20 meters.


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## LKJ86

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> By high altitude I don't mean 20 meters.


Do you know something called "plateau"?

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## Affan-khan

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> By high altitude I don't mean 20 meters.


Tibet average altitude is 4500 meter

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

LKJ86 said:


> Do you know something called "plateau"?



Can you see a helicopter operating at least 4000 feet in the video? Or am I a liar?


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## LKJ86

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Can you see a helicopter operating at least 4000 feet in the video? Or am I a liar?


LOL
Too naive

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## SD 10

beijingwalker said:


> Swarms of Chinese attack helicopters launch day and night real combat exercises on the Tibetan Plateau.


should have bought z10.... Someone in PAA messed up!


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## Affan-khan

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Can you see a helicopter operating at least 4000 feet in the video? Or am I a liar?


service ceiling of Atak is 4520 meter,, here in this video chinese heli exercise in tibet average altitude 4500 meter so even if its at 30 meter above ground its service ceiling is more than ATAK

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Affan-khan said:


> service ceiling of Atak is 4520 meter,, here in this video chinese heli exercise in tibet average altitude 4500 meter so even if its at 30 meter above ground its service ceiling is more than ATAK



Atak's official service ceiling is 6096 meters. Please keep your ideas of sushi with curry sauce away from me on matters you have no idea about.

Besides, I don't see a helicopter on the mountain top here.

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## Affan-khan

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Atak's official service ceiling is 6096 meters. Please keep your ideas of sushi with curry sauce away from me on matters you have no idea about.
> 
> Besides, I don't see a helicopter on the mountain top here.


https://www.tusas.com/en/product/t129-atak
so they r wrong?


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Affan-khan said:


> https://www.tusas.com/en/product/t129-atak
> so they r wrong?



There is no point in having an unnecessary discussion if you don't have the capacity to understand the difference between maximum service altitude and Avarage Mission Weight, or if you still haven't learned to read and write.
I suggest you use your great intelligence in a much more rational place.

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## -------

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> There is no point in having an unnecessary discussion if you don't have the capacity to understand the difference between maximum service altitude and Avarage Mission Weight, or if you still haven't learned to read and write.
> I suggest you use your great intelligence in a much more rational place.



It's hilarious watching some users here peddling an overweight and under-powered helicopter like the Z-10 boasting about its apparent aptitude for high altitude mountain warfare.

Z-10 - 7ton MTOW + 1,341shp
LCH - 5.8ton MTOW + 1,384shp
T-129 - 5ton MTOW + 1,360shp

Take a minute or two and think about it.

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## Tipu7

Any one claiming Z10 or any of its variant being superior than T129 is utterly ignorant of ground realities. Z10, after evaluation within Pakistan, was nothing more than a disappointment as far as its reliability and operability is concerned. T129 on the other hand, after rigorous evaluation, settled new benchmarks for Army combat aviation.
There is good reason, why Pakistan has given Turkey time to sort out engine issues as it want T129 as a bulk of its gunship fleet.
Z10, if arrived will be mere 'desperate stopgap'.
And assuming LCH being better than T129 is even more laughable.

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## beijingwalker

Tipu7 said:


> Any one claiming Z10 or any of its variant being superior than T129 is utterly ignorant of ground realities. Z10, after evaluation within Pakistan, was nothing more than a disappointment as far as its reliability and operability is concerned. T129 on the other hand, after rigorous evaluation, settled new benchmarks for Army combat aviation.
> There is good reason, why Pakistan has given Turkey time to sort out engine issues as it want T129 as a bulk of its gunship fleet.
> Z10, if arrived will be mere 'desperate stopgap'.
> And assuming LCH being better than T129 is even more laughable.


Chinese choppers are being upgraded every single year, and as your dream chopper T129, don't know how many years you have to wait and when they can finally delivered if they can be delivered at all, how far other chopper would have been developed.

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## Tipu7

beijingwalker said:


> Chinese choppers are being upgraded every single year, and as your dream chopper T129, don't know how many years you have to wait and when they can finally delivered if they can be delivered at all, how far other chopper would have been developed.





Tipu7 said:


> Z10, if arrived will be mere 'desperate stopgap'

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## -------

beijingwalker said:


> Chinese choppers are being upgraded every single year, and as your dream chopper T129, don't know how many years you have to wait and when they can finally delivered if they can be delivered at all, how far other chopper would have been developed.



China would have to up rate its engine to 1,820shp for Z10 to perform as well as T-129 with 1,360shp engine. This is highly unlikely to ever happen and as such, Z10 will never match T-129 on sheer performance and efficiency. But, if Turkey can not deliver - then Z10 is better then nothing and as such, we wish for Pakistan to be a strong nation and fill gaps.

Unfortunately Turkey isn't yet in a place where it can empower Muslim countries from servitude, but we are working on it.

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## beijingwalker

------- said:


> China would have to up rate its engine to 1,820shp for Z10 to perform as well as T-129 with 1,360shp engine. This is highly unlikely to ever happen and as such, Z10 will never match T-129 on sheer performance and efficiency. But, if Turkey can not deliver - then Z10 is better then nothing and as such, we wish for Pakistan to be a strong nation and fill gaps.
> 
> Unfortunately Turkey isn't yet in a place where it can empower Muslim countries from servitude, but we are working on it.


In the past two decades China had already shown what she is capable of, space station, moon rover, Beidou, Mars probe...saying China *will never match* who and who is just BS, China's technology and innovation advancement in the recently past was seen by everyone who is not blind.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

beijingwalker said:


> In the past two decades China had already shown what she is capable of, space station, moon rover, Beidou, Mars probe...saying China *will never match* who and who is just BS, China's technology and innovation advancement in the recently past was seen by everyone who is not blind.



Yes, your example Versus to Turkey against Israel with a population of 10 million is or when you beg of technology. Wow, China with a population of close to 1.5 billion can build helicopters and engines with the help of Russia. The whole world is shocked, congratulations, you are better than the Turks, but this is not a place where countries should broadcast their 100-year-old shedules, we are talking about Pakistan's helicopter options.

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## beijingwalker

You can wait for another decade for T129， hopefully the deal can eventually be completed.

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## beijingwalker

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> this is not a place where countries should broadcast their 100-year-old shedules, we are talking about Pakistan's helicopter options.


They chose you, hopefully you won't let them down.
If Turkey indeed can work out a indigenous engine for that chopper in one or two years as you planned, you will really make a miracle, my full admiration.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

beijingwalker said:


> You can wait for another decade for T129， hopefully the deal can eventually be completed.



Helicopters and none of the subsystem and engine projects developed for them are being developed for Pakistan. It was already at the request of the forces from the very beginning. There is an option for everyone, if not T129, then Z-10, otherwise another Mig. You keep develop, that's enough, nobody has developed an optional technology next to after 15 years to helicopter. Helicopter sales will continue.

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## -------

beijingwalker said:


> In the past two decades China had already shown what she is capable of, space station, moon rover, Beidou, Mars probe...saying China *will never match* who and who is just BS, China's technology and innovation advancement in the recently past was seen by everyone who is not blind.



Now you are posting for the sake of replying to me - you have not made any attempt to challenge my point, at-least you know how valid my point is...

Fact is this;

T-129 would reach an altitude of 4,000 ft much quicker and efficiently then Z-10 ever could. Making T-129 the better option for mountain/high altitude operations.

Would anyone like to dispute the above statement?

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## beijingwalker

------- said:


> Now you are posting for the sake of replying to me - you have not made any attempt to challenge my point, at-least you know how valid my point is...
> 
> Fact is this;
> 
> T-129 would reach an altitude of 4,000 ft much quicker and efficiently then Z-10 ever could. Making T-129 the better option for mountain/high altitude operations.
> 
> Would anyone like to dispute the above statement?


I admit my knowledge in this field is almost like zero, I only want to say however good your choppers are, they need to be delivered to the customers first.


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## Nasr

beijingwalker said:


> You can wait for another decade for T129， hopefully the deal can eventually be completed.



I believe that Pakistan was implementing a diversification policy toward it's military hardware. Whether it be Al-Khalid (collaboration with China & Ukraine), T-80UD and VT-4. Or be it Chinese Submarine contract, French Submarine contract. Or be it Thunders for the air force, American F-16s or French Mirages. 

That's probably the reason for T-129s. From Turkey was probably a safer bet, then directly from Italy. As the latter is more likely to succumb to american pressure, whereas Turkey is not. Having said that, it is important to note that China is far greater capacity and industrial base than Turkey. Which means that Pakistan ought to go for the helicopter which fulfills it's combat operational requirements. If that means Z-10MEs, then so be it. At least Pakistan doesn't need to fear "sanctions" from China, as it has from America over then 60 years.


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## LKJ86

Tipu7 said:


> Any one claiming Z10 or any of its variant being superior than T129 is utterly ignorant of ground realities. Z10, after evaluation within Pakistan, was nothing more than a disappointment as far as its reliability and operability is concerned. T129 on the other hand, after rigorous evaluation, settled new benchmarks for Army combat aviation.
> There is good reason, why Pakistan has given Turkey time to sort out engine issues as it want T129 as a bulk of its gunship fleet.
> Z10, if arrived will be mere 'desperate stopgap'.
> And assuming LCH being better than T129 is even more laughable.


There are no objective assessments of Z-10 in PDF, just like what VT-4 used to suffer.

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## Tipu7

LKJ86 said:


> There are no objective assessments of Z-10 in PDF, just like what VT-4 used to suffer.
> View attachment 660971
> View attachment 660972
> View attachment 660973
> View attachment 660974
> View attachment 660975


It's not wise to compare a tank project with helicopter project. I doubt there is any body here who can votch for reliability of Z10 or its 'great' performance during trials.
China has progressed very well in several departments, but is struggling in few also. 
Pakistan's 80% Armor fleet is of Chinese origin. Because China has progressed well in this direction and minor shorcomings can be countered by sourcing better systems from Non Chinese sources.
In helicopters however, there is mere one Squadron of Chinese helicopter operational in Navy, that is Z9C which itself is a troublesome helicopter. Rest, neither Air Force nor Army operate any fleet of Chinese origin helicopter.
Reasons, I have mentioned above.

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## beijingwalker

Nasr said:


> At least Pakistan doesn't need to fear "sanctions" from China, as it has from America over then 60 years.


I think this time US is sanctioning Turkey, Pakistan is just a collateral damage.

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## LKJ86

Tipu7 said:


> It's not wise to compare a tank project with helicopter project.


Who really knows?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Z-10ME solves the core issues raised by PAA.

I believe the PAA has ordered a number of Z-10s, but I'm unsure if they're the Z-10ME or the current-model Z-10. I say this because the PAA wants these choppers very, very soon. So, they may not be much different from those the PAA tested in 2015-2016. In other words, a stopgap (until Z-10ME or ATAK w/TS1400).

It'd be odd for the PAA to suddenly buy either Z-10ME or ATAK w/TS1400. It would need to test both helicopters to (1) ensure they meet the hot/high requirements, (2) desert ops requirements, and (3) range requirements. Yes on paper both might look good, but we still need to test them in Pakistan.

So, all in all, I'm inclined to believe that (1) a Z-10 order has taken place, but (2) it's for the current variant, not the Z-10ME. The Z-10ME may come, but I think the PAA will again trial it out, and the ATAK w/TS1400 will get a chance as well.

That said, the mmW-guided AGM and miniature cruise missile are both really cool features of the Z-10ME. So, besides the improved performance parameters, the added capabilities could tilt the PAA towards China this time around. Alternatively, the PAA can also split requirements -- i.e., Z-10ME for long-range, desert ops and ATAK for high-altitude (especially if the TS1400 offers more power).

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## Tipu7

LKJ86 said:


> Who really knows?


For that we have to wait and see. 
VT4 is coming because it outperformed both Oplot and AK during trials. 

Z10, however, was rejected. It has received a second fighting chance only due to blockade of engine export licenses of T129.

PA will choose Z10 or any of its advance variant only if T129 engine issue fails to rectify. Then, Z10ME will most probably be Army's choice. But if both T129B and Z10ME will be available, Pakistan will still choose T129B any day

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## LKJ86

Tipu7 said:


> For that we have to wait and see.
> VT4 is coming because it outperformed both Oplot and AK during trials.
> 
> Z10, however, was rejected. It has received a second fighting chance only due to blockade of engine export licenses of T129.
> 
> PA will choose Z10 or any of its advance variant only if T129 engine issue fails to rectify. Then, Z10ME will most probably be Army's choice. But if both T129B and Z10ME will be available, Pakistan will still choose T129B any day


Pakistan buys corvettes from Turkey, not meaning that China can't provide a better option.
It is the same to gunship.

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## Tipu7

LKJ86 said:


> Pakistan buys corvettes from Turkey, not meaning that China can't provide a better option.
> It is the same to gunship.


I have mentioned this argument already. 


Tipu7 said:


> China has progressed very well in several departments, but is struggling in few also.

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## Zarvan

Salza said:


> Pakistan, Turkey and US have made some positive progress over T129 helicopter sale. DGISPR


Can anyone give exact time during press conference he said it. Because I can't find it.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

LKJ86 said:


> Pakistan buys corvettes from Turkey, not meaning that China can't provide a better option.
> It is the same to gunship.



Pakistan prefers to buy from Turkey. Turkey is Muslim country.


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## mingle

Austin Powers said:


> Pakistan prefers to buy from Turkey. Turkey is Muslim country.


Wrong analogy Pak has a real enemy sitting on our eastside and invisible enemy sitting on westside shape of TTP So what ever weapon system Pak purchase it goes through vigrous trials T129 passed all the requirements for PAA and passed the test so Z10 failed in few parameters so now they fix those will go in trail again and if pass Army will buy them

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## PeacefulWar

There is not need to argue as we don't have much info of lastest z-10 yet.
China has suffered engine performance issue of helicopters in high altitudes areas in past. This is very well acknowledged in Chinese military community.
This issue is partly because this was *not our core/priority requirement before.*
But now with the escalation with India in past few years, *this is not the case anymore*. Performance in plateau is a priority now. Plus a lot of new engine improvement/breakthrough in last decade, engine performance in plateau areas at least won't be bottlenecks anymore for China.

Now whether it is on par with US engine, I'm not sure and not very optimistic about this.
But all in all, the most important thing is it won't be a bottleneck and can get job done.

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## Zarvan

Austin Powers said:


> Pakistan prefers to buy from Turkey. Turkey is Muslim country.


That is not the reason for GOD sake. Grow up. Turkey is part of NATO therefore had access to advance western technology along with more powerful engines. T 129 performed and satisfied our boys Z 10 didn't. So please stop doing childish posts.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Zarvan said:


> That is not the reason for GOD sake. Grow up. Turkey is part of NATO therefore had access to advance western technology along with more powerful engines. T 129 performed and satisfied our boys Z 10 didn't. So please stop doing childish posts.



Not anymore Turkey don't. Congress sanctioned Turkey. Turkey can't even buy any new tanks or planes or warships or subs since 2016.


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## Figaro

PeacefulWar said:


> There is not need to argue as we don't have much info of lastest z-10 yet.
> China has suffered engine performance issue of helicopters in high altitudes areas in past. This is very well acknowledged in Chinese military community.
> This issue is partly because this was *not our core/priority requirement before.*
> But now with the escalation with India in past few years, *this is not the case anymore*. Performance in plateau is a priority now. Plus a lot of new engine improvement/breakthrough in last decade, engine performance in plateau areas at least won't be bottlenecks anymore for China.
> 
> Now whether it is on par with US engine, I'm not sure and not very optimistic about this.
> But all in all, the most important thing is it won't be a bottleneck and can get job done.


The Z-10s produced in the past couple of years have an uprated WZ-9 engine with around 1100 kW of power, higher than the 900 kW of the original. This should have solved the issues the quite a bit, which is why we see the newer Z-10s having more armored plating and are conducting frequent exercises on the Tibetan plateau. As LKJ pointed out, the frequency of the Z-10s conducting missions on these high plateaus should show that high altitude performance has increased with the latest models. As for Pakistan purchasing the Z-10, we shall see since I recall a couple of years ago everyone was saying it had poor performance and the Pakistani Army would never purchase it. Look what happened now.

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## Zarvan

Austin Powers said:


> Not anymore Turkey don't. Congress sanctioned Turkey. Turkey can't even buy any new tanks or planes or warships or subs since 2016.


T 129 was already developed way before those sanctions and DG ISPR also stated our engine issue also close to being resolved.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Z-10ME solves the core issues raised by PAA.
> 
> I believe the PAA has ordered a number of Z-10s, but I'm unsure if they're the Z-10ME or the current-model Z-10. I say this because the PAA wants these choppers very, very soon. So, they may not be much different from those the PAA tested in 2015-2016. In other words, a stopgap (until Z-10ME or ATAK w/TS1400).
> 
> It'd be odd for the PAA to suddenly buy either Z-10ME or ATAK w/TS1400. It would need to test both helicopters to (1) ensure they meet the hot/high requirements, (2) desert ops requirements, and (3) range requirements. Yes on paper both might look good, but we still need to test them in Pakistan.
> 
> So, all in all, I'm inclined to believe that (1) a Z-10 order has taken place, but (2) it's for the current variant, not the Z-10ME. The Z-10ME may come, but I think the PAA will again trial it out, and the ATAK w/TS1400 will get a chance as well.
> 
> That said, the mmW-guided AGM and miniature cruise missile are both really cool features of the Z-10ME. So, besides the improved performance parameters, the added capabilities could tilt the PAA towards China this time around. Alternatively, the PAA can also split requirements -- i.e., Z-10ME for long-range, desert ops and ATAK for high-altitude (especially if the TS1400 offers more power).



Is your belief based on anything? We clearly had the Army come out and say they are giving Turkey another year grace period to sort out the engine issue. Why would we be ordering the Z-10 in any token numbers or not? Heck, if we are so desperate for a chopper, should order and induct more Mi-35s, as at least we have those in service.

China has been a great source of weapons to us, but that does not mean we ought to take every single thing they produce even if it does not meet the requirements or our standards.

And I also dont see any cause for a rush to buy an anti-tank heli esp since the war on terror inside Pakistan has been wrapped up mostly and the demand for counter insurgency ops is just not there as it were 4-5 years ago. Pakistan can afford to wait and it should.

If we do order Z-10, imo it would be a great disservice to Pakistan. We will have in a very small PAA fleet 4 different attack helicopters from 4 different manufacturers with zero compatibility in any weapons or systems.

AH-1F
Mi-35
AH-1Z (wishful though some would have us believe they are already in Pakistan)
Z-10 (hope it never happens)
T-129 (if this is just a "stop gap" then another Turkish helo in the future)

This is a totally ridiculous fleet and a mess when it comes to support, training and ops. 
We simply need 2 choppers at most in this role for diversification purposes. 
The heavy can be AH-1Z and T129 fit the bill perfectly in this regard. The Mi-35 was another terrible choice the army made and hopefully they will not order more of that antique. We can donate them to the new Afghan government once it comes to power for all I could care.

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Z-10ME solves the core issues raised by PAA.
> 
> I believe the PAA has ordered a number of Z-10s, but I'm unsure if they're the Z-10ME or the current-model Z-10. I say this because the PAA wants these choppers very, very soon. So, they may not be much different from those the PAA tested in 2015-2016. In other words, a stopgap (until Z-10ME or ATAK w/TS1400).
> 
> It'd be odd for the PAA to suddenly buy either Z-10ME or ATAK w/TS1400. It would need to test both helicopters to (1) ensure they meet the hot/high requirements, (2) desert ops requirements, and (3) range requirements. Yes on paper both might look good, but we still need to test them in Pakistan.
> 
> So, all in all, I'm inclined to believe that (1) a Z-10 order has taken place, but (2) it's for the current variant, not the Z-10ME. The Z-10ME may come, but I think the PAA will again trial it out, and the ATAK w/TS1400 will get a chance as well.
> 
> That said, the mmW-guided AGM and miniature cruise missile are both really cool features of the Z-10ME. So, besides the improved performance parameters, the added capabilities could tilt the PAA towards China this time around. Alternatively, the PAA can also split requirements -- i.e., Z-10ME for long-range, desert ops and ATAK for high-altitude (especially if the TS1400 offers more power).


After DG ISPR press conference INSHALLAH it's safe to close the chapter of Z 10 ME. T 129 will be arriving. And if T 129 is coming that means USA would have also cleared Zulu helicopter to us. So the reports of them arriving is most likely true also.

@PanzerKiel @Ark_Angel @Blacklight @SQ8 @Tipu7

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Austin Powers said:


> Not anymore Turkey don't. Congress sanctioned Turkey. Turkey can't even buy any new tanks or planes or warships or subs since 2016.




Turkey is a NATO member and still be able to get more respect from the northern Iraqi Kurds.
Turkey is no longer what does that mean it's over? Can you tell us on which product we are specifically embargoed, except for the F35?
Which product did we request from America and didn't pass the congress? Keep fooling yourself with your no-nonsense information.

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## Viper27

Zarvan said:


> After DG ISPR press conference INSHALLAH it's safe to close the chapter of Z 10 ME. T 129 will be arriving. And if T 129 is coming that means USA would have also cleared Zulu helicopter to us. So the reports of them arriving is most likely true also.
> 
> @PanzerKiel @Ark_Angel @Blacklight @SQ8 @Tipu7



What did the DG ISPR say that makes you come to that conclusion?

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## Zarvan

Viper27 said:


> What did the DG ISPR say that makes you come to that conclusion?


The issue of engines almost resolved.


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## Zarvan

Viper27 said:


> What did the DG ISPR say that makes you come to that conclusion?






Listen from 40th minute.

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## Viper27

Zarvan said:


> Listen from 40th minute.



His response was quite evasive. All he said was "there's progress". That could mean anything.

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## Zarvan

Viper27 said:


> His response was quite evasive. All he said was "there's progress". That could mean anything.


The reporter answered himself in the question that is why DG ISPR didn't went in details. And no the answer was clear. Issue is pretty much resolved.


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## Viper27

Zarvan said:


> The reporter answered himself in the question that is why DG ISPR didn't went in details. And no the answer was clear. Issue is pretty much resolved.



No one answered anything. It could mean the issue has been resolved but most likely means that things are being negotiated.

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## araz

Gentlemen.
Can we please stop this dick measuring contest. This is a thread about T129 not the Z10ME. Please confine your posts-to the topic. It is really irritating to see people arguing over this vs that when we have specific threads on the 2 helicopters.
This is a request from me for my own sanity.
A

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That said, the mmW-guided AGM and miniature cruise missile are both really cool features of the Z-10ME.


This statement reminds of SEAD/DEAD Ops by AH-64 in opening hours of First Gulf war.

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## Blacklight

Zarvan said:


> After DG ISPR press conference INSHALLAH it's safe to close the chapter of Z 10 ME. T 129 will be arriving. And if T 129 is coming that means USA would have also cleared Zulu helicopter to us. So the reports of them arriving is most likely true also.
> 
> @PanzerKiel @Ark_Angel @Blacklight @SQ8 @Tipu7


In all probability, T-129 will not come with an American engine.

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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> In all probability, T-129 will not come with an American engine.


And the alternative is?
Any other engine mean restarting of entire evaluation and testing process. 
(French Turkish relations are tense)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Is your belief based on anything? We clearly had the Army come out and say they are giving Turkey another year grace period to sort out the engine issue. Why would we be ordering the Z-10 in any token numbers or not? Heck, if we are so desperate for a chopper, should order and induct more Mi-35s, as at least we have those in service.


It's based on info from a credible person (which I don't throw around lightly). 

It could be a situation where we're just leasing a few Z-10Es to shore-up numbers and to hold as a stopgap until we induct the Z-10ME and/or ATAK (with TS1400).

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## Colonel_Hardstone

*DG ISPR Briefing 13th of August 2020*






*40:51:* Sir...Pakistan had signed a deal with Turkey to purchase 30 T-129s but United Stated had expressed some reservations. Now we are hearing that both Pakistan and Turkey are close to resolving the issue with United States, would you be able to update us on the progress being made on this issue?

*DG ISPR:* The update is the one which you have already alluded to in your question, there is positive progress and there are no issues on that front.


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## Zarvan

StormBreaker said:


> I see, You spending your life on the computer has made you unfamiliar with the Human interaction and evasive techniques.
> 
> His response and the way he replied, He was letting the journalist believe whatever he wanted to believe, and quickly jumped up to another topic without even saying “T-129”


His answer was quite clear and not evasive at all.

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## Ark_Angel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's based on info from a credible person (which I don't throw around lightly).
> 
> It could be a situation where we're just leasing a few Z-10Es to shore-up numbers and to hold as a stopgap until we induct the Z-10ME and/or ATAK (with TS1400).


No lease. Direct Acquisition.

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## Irfan Baloch

Tipu7 said:


> And the alternative is?
> Any other engine mean restarting of entire evaluation and testing process.
> (French Turkish relations are tense)


Modified TS1400 which Turkish Aviation industry is currently working on.

you might want to check with Turkish members for the details on the timeline of its development and progress in its replacement for the CTS800 engines.

its an indigenous engine originally developed for the utility helicopter and with modification it will be adapted for T129 MK1s and is claimed to have the same features of compactness light weight, great power to weight and fuel efficiency

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Irfan Baloch said:


> Modified TS1400 which Turkish Aviation industry is currently working on.
> 
> you might want to check with Turkish members for the details on the timeline of its development and progress in its replacement for the CTS800 engines.
> 
> its an indigenous engine originally developed for the utility helicopter and with modification it will be adapted for T129 MK1s and is claimed to have the same features of compactness light weight, great power to weight and fuel efficiency



All we know is that it will be delivered to TAI by TEI to start testing with T625 Gokbey this year. Since Atak uses the same engine with the current prototypes of Gokbey, there will be no integration problem for the T129, but only Allah knows what performance the engine can give from the tests.

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## Irfan Baloch

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> All we know is that it will be delivered to TAI by TEI to start testing with T625 Gokbey this year. Since Atak uses the same engine with the current prototypes of Gokbey, there will be no integration problem for the T129, but only Allah knows what performance the engine can give from the tests.


the TEI is confident about the use on T129 and Turkey has our best wishes and prayers for the success of the turboshaft engine and its application on ATAK T129 its by far the best option among the alternatives.

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## TheDarkKnight

Ark_Angel said:


> No lease. Direct Acquisition.


ME version ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan is in safe hands , while working / selecting Turkish Helicopter , it may get slightly delayed but the end of the process we will get a machine which will bear potential for substantial upgrades down the line

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Whether Turkish or Chinese, in the future, if Pakistan invests in serious ATGM development, the helicopters will not have an integration problem as they buy one or both of these 2 countries. It is a disgrace to necessarily be subject to the permission of the platform vendor next to the purchased platform.

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## polanski

S-400 Pain: Turkey hires U.S. lobbyists to get an export license of T800-4A engines for Pakistan: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...port-license-of-t800-4a-engines-for-pakistan/

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## mingle

polanski said:


> S-400 Pain: Turkey hires U.S. lobbyists to get an export license of T800-4A engines for Pakistan: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...port-license-of-t800-4a-engines-for-pakistan/


Finely Turkey and Pak start learning something


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## HAIDER

polanski said:


> S-400 Pain: Turkey hires U.S. lobbyists to get an export license of T800-4A engines for Pakistan: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...port-license-of-t800-4a-engines-for-pakistan/


It means this engine is not sanction prove ....better wait for Turkey homemade engine ... Usually, in such type of circumstances, US give approval for a short period.

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## Irfan Baloch

HAIDER said:


> It means this engine is not sanction prove ....better wait for Turkey homemade engine ... Usually, in such type of circumstances, US give approval for a short period.





Irfan Baloch said:


> Modified TS1400 which Turkish Aviation industry is currently working on.
> 
> you might want to check with Turkish members for the details on the timeline of its development and progress in its replacement for the CTS800 engines.
> 
> its an indigenous engine originally developed for the utility helicopter and with modification it will be adapted for T129 MK1s and is claimed to have the same features of compactness light weight, great power to weight and fuel efficiency



approving the sale of American engine will help Turkey in competing with American companies and attracting future customers. So there will be no approval from US unless Americans really need Turkey for any future conflict or invasion.

Turkey is already testing the locally developed TS1400 engine for T129.
this engine is also selected for the Turkish T625 utility helicopter and is being tested by TEI at the moment,

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## Yasser76

Irfan Baloch said:


> approving the sale of American engine will help Turkey in competing with American companies and attracting future customers. So there will be no approval from US unless Americans really need Turkey for any future conflict or invasion.
> 
> Turkey is already testing the locally developed TS1400 engine for T129.
> this engine is also selected for the Turkish T625 utility helicopter and is being tested by TEI at the moment,



You are forgetting Honeywell will do well out of any deal, so expect Lobbyists to push this.


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## Irfan Baloch

Yasser76 said:


> You are forgetting Honeywell will do well out of any deal, so expect Lobbyists to push this.


I am not forgetting anything. Americans embargo entire products not just the components when it doesn't suit them. sometimes politics decides their actions
they havent ruled out selling Zulus to us for example but wont let Turkey sell us their copters since 2018 because it has American powerplant.

in this case for example they would rather sell the entire product in the shape of say cobras to the potential customers rather than let Turkey establish itself as an exporter by using their engine. there is a political dimension to that as well not just economical which is debatable.

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not forgetting anything. Americans embargo entire products not just the components when it doesn't suit them. sometimes politics decides their actions
> they havent ruled out selling Zulus to us for example but wont let Turkey sell us their copters since 2018 because it has American powerplant.
> 
> in this case for example they would rather sell the entire product in the shape of say cobras to the potential customers rather than let Turkey establish itself as an exporter by using their engine. there is a political dimension to that as well not just economical which is debatable.


Sir but right now they are stuck with Afghan Deal. They want us to deliver Afghan Deal so I think despite their issues with Turkey they would release the engines. Although I am expecting them offer Pakistan more zulu helicopters and zulus will be delivered soon followed by a bigger order.

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Sir but right now they are stuck with Afghan Deal. They want us to deliver Afghan Deal so I think despite their issues with Turkey they would release the engines. Although I am expecting them offer Pakistan more zulu helicopters and zulus will be delivered soon followed by a bigger order.



the Engine production is predicted to start by 2024 after its testing and trials has concluded. hopefully its integration with T 129 will start in the meantime as well so that T 129 is available after engine integration and trials.
Pakistan army should request few units again for verification of T129 new engine to save time.
Zulus will be embargoed. the Afghan deal is hanging by the thread due to US elections and possible change of administration. And those opposed to Pakistan brokered deal are doing their best to sabotage the deal.

*General request* to all members to keep this Thread strictly to T129 and its components. for any comparisons and details about other helicopters please use already existing countless threads.

thanks

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

The year 2024 was given as an "estimate" by the editors of Turkish Defense Magazines in 2018, when the engine was first started. If everything goes well in the platform tests, the engine will already be in mass production in the last quarter of 2021, when the T625 will enter mass production. Experts said the date of 2024, taking into account the fact that the single crystal turbine blades are still in the development phase. 100 thousands of blades were recently delivered to TEI by Tubitak Mam, and if the engine passes the tests, there is no reason not to start production directly. The company is currently actively producing T700s.

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## HAIDER

Irfan Baloch said:


> the Engine production is predicted to start by 2024 after its testing and trials has concluded. hopefully its integration with T 129 will start in the meantime as well so that T 129 is available after engine integration and trials.
> Pakistan army should request few units again for verification of T129 new engine to save time.
> Zulus will be embargoed. the Afghan deal is hanging by the thread due to US elections and possible change of administration. And those opposed to Pakistan brokered deal are doing their best to sabotage the deal.
> 
> *General request* to all members to keep this Thread strictly to T129 and its components. for any comparisons and details about other helicopters please use already existing countless threads.
> 
> thanks


I have posted news regarding US silent sanction on Turkey, where US has not responded to Turkish request for third party engine delivery and US has approved none new engine delivery to Turkey ... so if Trump reelected then forget T129 for another 4 years to 5 years ..

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## Tair-Lahoti

*Turkey Hires Washington Lobbyist to Help Clear Helicopter Sale to Pakistan*




Turkey has hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration for securing an export licence which will help complete a $1.5 billion sale of ATAK helicopters to Pakistan.

*“Concerned by the continued delay of the sale to Pakistan, previously unreported filings required by the U.S. Foreign Agents Registration Act show that Turkish Aerospace Industries-TAI (which manufactures the ATAK helicopter) hired US law firms, Greenberg Traurig LLP and its lobbying sub-contractor Capital Counsel LLC, to lobby the relevant congressional leaders and the White House to secure the requisite export licences,” Turkish media ahvalnews reported today.*









Turkey hires U.S. lobbyists to break Congress’s de facto arms embargo | Ahval


Congressional leaders have blocked major U.S. arms sales to Turkey for almost two years in response to Ankara’s purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems, which the United States says threatens the F-35 fighter jet’s stealth capabilities.




ahvalnews.com

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## Imran Khan

turkey s-400 deal makes so many blunders .

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## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> turkey s-400 deal makes so many blunders .


Instead of saying that the "lobbyist" should help in getting AH-1Z cleared too and potentially pave way for more F-16s for Pakistan, you are blaming Turks ?

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## Imran Khan

Signalian said:


> Instead of saying that the "lobbyist" should help in getting AH-1Z cleared too and potentially pave way for more F-16s for Pakistan, you are blaming Turks ?


that wil be worse idea ever we should stay away from further US equipment . i am happy they banned us on CSF . we should pay lobby to make sanctions more harder .

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## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> that wil be worse idea ever we should stay away from further US equipment . i am happy they banned us on CSF . we should pay lobby to make sanctions more harder .


I inserted a silly emoji as a joke in that post but it didnt come up. 
On a serious note, you never know - what if the first few come with American engines. Later, if TOT occurs, then Turkish engines and other upgrades would have kicked into production. Its just viable to keep options option.


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## Imran Khan

Signalian said:


> You never know - what if the first few come with American engines. Later, if TOT occurs, then Turkish engines and other upgrades would have kicked into production. Its just viable to keep options option.


i think with 1.5bn$ we can get a decent offer from many sources . all this bhai bhai thing make the mess .

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## nomi007

Cant understand Erodagan's S400 decision.
*خود تو ڈبوہے ہیں
ہمیں بھی لے ڈوبے*

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## Figaro

nomi007 said:


> Cant understand Erodagan's S400 decision.
> *خود تو ڈبوہے ہیں
> ہمیں بھی لے ڈوبے*


I have no idea why he prioritizes a questionable SAM system over the state of the art stealth fighter. The S-400 supporters' rationale makes absolutely no sense at all.


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## The Accountant

Figaro said:


> I have no idea why he prioritizes a questionable SAM system over the state of the art stealth fighter. The S-400 supporters' rationale makes absolutely no sense at all.


1. diversification.
2. He is a pro islamic leader and not liberal and amercians are not happy about his approach. He didnt wanted to be another Saddam. So now he is sure that friend and foe identification will not be hurdle in air defence with western aircrafts and russian air defense system.
3. Basically he had the balls to secure himself against US interventions

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## ziaulislam

Irfan Baloch said:


> the Engine production is predicted to start by 2024 after its testing and trials has concluded. hopefully its integration with T 129 will start in the meantime as well so that T 129 is available after engine integration and trials.
> Pakistan army should request few units again for verification of T129 new engine to save time.
> Zulus will be embargoed. the Afghan deal is hanging by the thread due to US elections and possible change of administration. And those opposed to Pakistan brokered deal are doing their best to sabotage the deal.
> 
> *General request* to all members to keep this Thread strictly to T129 and its components. for any comparisons and details about other helicopters please use already existing countless threads.
> 
> thanks


to be honest the weapon deals will be based upon how skillful diplomacy we do

with respect to afghan deal, bidden will probably leave afghanistan fatser then trump, he was the one who said to leave with no deal but obama listened to generals instead..i doubt he would ..but then party pressure is something too..b
however looking at 80% people want USA troops to leave afgahnistan deal or no deal, i doubt uSA is staying unless afghan taliban start working for alq again then ofocurse


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## Readerdefence

Hi s400 might be the reason when NATO and American sams didn’t stop Russian fighter to enter into Turkish airspace and with so much fuss created for bringing down Russian fighter at the end blame game started and I think to calm down the situation Turkish president directly contacted Putin which result in the end of getting S400 mind you guys before that Turkish were begging USA for a long time for a Patriot missile defence which USA reluctant to supply 
and if you guys remember some time back Chinese tried to sell them their I think FD2000 which been sabotaged by USA and been promised by them for a more robust and longer range sam from them 
if possible for someone to answer is it not possible for Turkish to integrate Russian engines into ATAK beside getting full engine support now a days Russian / Turkish / Iranians & Chinese are sailing together 
thank you

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> turkey s-400 deal makes so many blunders .


Not blunders but
Tun k rakh dia hai humhain bhi.
Every manufacture has alternatives, but These ajoobas have nothing.

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## PakAlp

Imran Khan said:


> turkey s-400 deal makes so many blunders .



Definitely a mistake. They should have waited another 10 to 15 years, developed their defence industry fully. 5th generation fighter jets, helicopters, highly developed economy. They would have automatically risen as a regional power. 

Unless ofcourse Turkey is confident they can make their own 5th, 6th generation fighter jets and engines, own helicopter engine etc, only time will tell. 

Pakistan would love to have this gunship. 100 T129s and its bye bye to USA gunships

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## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


> Cant understand Erodagan's S400 decision.
> *خود تو ڈبوہے ہیں
> ہمیں بھی لے ڈوبے*



So the story goes Russian intel had warned the coup in turkey and it spared life of many plus turkey intel think there were links to west and US so leading to many pro russian decisions 

what’s the truth God knows

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## Balamir

TAI official announced that the domestic TS1400 engine developed for GÖKBEY and T129 ATAK helicopters will be integrated into the GÖKBEY helicopter by the end of 2020 and the test flight will begin. ATAKs can be delivered with the TS1400 if Pakistan agrees.

The news is not available in English.








Gökbey helikopteri yerli motorla buluşuyor


Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ) tarafından geliştirilen yerli Gökbey Genel Maksat Helikopteri, yıl sonunda yerli motoruyla buluşacak. - Anadolu Ajansı




www.aa.com.tr

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## Path-Finder

Balamir said:


> TAI official announced that the domestic TS1400 engine developed for GÖKBEY and T129 ATAK helicopters will be integrated into the GÖKBEY helicopter by the end of 2020 and the test flight will begin. ATAKs can be delivered with the TS1400 if Pakistan agrees.
> 
> The news is not available in English.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gökbey helikopteri yerli motorla buluşuyor
> 
> 
> Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ) tarafından geliştirilen yerli Gökbey Genel Maksat Helikopteri, yıl sonunda yerli motoruyla buluşacak. - Anadolu Ajansı
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aa.com.tr


I think the change of engine will go through the same test lasting a whole year with summer and winter weather test and the geographical test in various terrain and altitude. Hopefully it will pass and do away with yankee engine.

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## Balamir

I've written here before. It is not possible for Pakistan to get ATAK with the US engine. The reason for this is not Pakistan, Turkey. US, Turkey does not want to enter into the helicopter market, but sells engines for use in the country to Turkey. Of course, it may be pursuing a balance policy in order to prevent India from getting closer to Russia. As a result, I think that if everything goes well, all tests of the engine will be finished by the end of 2021.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Balamir said:


> I've written here before. It is not possible for Pakistan to get ATAK with the US engine. The reason for this is not Pakistan, Turkey. US, Turkey does not want to enter into the helicopter market, but sells engines for use in the country to Turkey. Of course, it may be pursuing a balance policy in order to prevent India from getting closer to Russia. As a result, I think that if everything goes well, all tests of the engine will be finished by the end of 2021.




Turkey sells to engine problems but not Pakistan do you say after you say will not allow Turkey to Pakistan and you're touted it as a balanced policy. Pakistan is no different from Afghanistan for the USA and does not deliver the Zulus it produces for them, but we can buy engines from them. Everything is obvious, how do you bring the issue concluded that Turkey? Why would a country that does not deliver even a helicopter it will sell itself issue an export license for the platform that another country will sell ?

Let me tell you if you are going to give an example of the Philippines, the other helicopter on the table is Zulu, but they said it was unreasonable because of the cost, why would they issue you a license when they can sell Zulu?

Some friends here see themselves as important to America or something. Turkey wants to stay in the moment because the F35 project financially lucrative. F35 will come sooner or later, Turkey will never be the eastern block countries, and even other countries in the region that in the nearest geopolitical and military position with 2 maybe 3 times nominal value. After its withdrawal from Afghanistan, Pakistan is not seen as anything other than a first class Chinese colony for America and will establish its strategic position in the region based on India. The subject may have diverged, but I will not see myself as a Vietnamese just because we cannot export an American made engine to a country that needs to pass a thousand kinds of approvals from FMS even for a simple export from the United States.

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## PDF

*Pakistan's Ambassador Muhammed Qazi to Turkey visits TAI*





_24.9.2020 11:40:00_


Pakistan’s Ambassador to Turkey Muhammad Sajjad Qazi and his accompanying delegation including the defense attaché visited Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).
“Honoring us with their visit, our long-time friend and brother country Pakistan’s Ambassador to Turkey Muhammad Syrus Sajjad Qazi and the dear accompanying delegation were informed in our ongoing projects and products,” TAI tweeted.
In the pictures shared from the visit by TAI, we can see the Pakistani delegation checking out the T-129 (Gökbey) helicopter.
During the visit, Executive Vice President of TAI's helicopter project Dr. Yıldırım Kemal gifted the Pakistani Ambassador Mr. Muhammad Syrus Sajjad Qazi with a Tableau.









Pakistan's Ambassador Muhammed Qazi to Turkey visits TAI







defensehere.com

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## aziqbal

great to see also sad that in 2020 Turkey + Pakistan still cannot make a medium ticket deal between themselves without US influence 

and both Turkey + Pakistan is as strong as muslims nations get

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## Yasser76

aziqbal said:


> great to see also sad that in 2020 Turkey + Pakistan still cannot make a medium ticket deal between themselves without US influence
> 
> and both Turkey + Pakistan is as strong as muslims nations get



You mean MILGEM Corvette, Brand new fleet tanker and Agosta 90B sub upgrade were all small ticket and needed US approval?

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## Path-Finder

some visuals of the engine and the chopper.

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## blain2

What is the latest on the engine situation with T-129s for PAA?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

blain2 said:


> What is the latest on the engine situation with T-129s for PAA?


This is a very recent interview (like last 1-2 months) with Turkey's top defence industry official.

From what I can see from the translation, they submitted a new application for an export permit, and so far, the US hasn't said "no" ?? 

However, the same official said (a few months back) that if they can't get the US engine, then the Pakistan Army can check out the Turkish powerplant (TS1400/TS1500). Obviously, this would set the process back, however, the Turks are/were confident the PAA will like what they'll see, basically.









ÖZEL HABER: SSB Başkanı Prof. İsmail DEMİR Gündeme Dair Çarpıcı Açıklamalarda Bulundu!


T.C. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayi Başkanı Prof. İsmail DEMİR, Dergimize verdiği özel mülakatta; Savunma Sanayi Başkanlığının 2023 planlamalarından, ihracat hedeflerine, ihraç pazarında Türkiye’nin elini güçlendirecek Devletler Arası Satıştan, Barter uygulamalarına uygulanabilecek tüm finansal...




www.defenceturkey.com





*Defense Turkey: In connection with this, export license approval is expected from the US Government for LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft engines to be used in T129B ATAK Helicopters to be produced for Pakistani Land Forces. The same is true in the Philippines. Can you give information about the latest situation on this subject? *

_Prof. İsmail DEMİR: So far we have not seen any negativity in the Pakistani process. We don't expect it in the Philippines either. However, especially in the Pakistani process, the fact that US authorities do not issue expulsion permits will harm all three sides of the United States, Turkey and Pakistan. We call it the path of reason, we hope there will be no eclipse here. Signals from the United States are that there will be a positive approach here. So far, we haven't received a negative signal, but of course we have to wait for the result. _

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## Cuirassier

the Yank wankers have cost us crucial years. By now we could've had an AH-1Z squadron and T-129s incoming. 5 years ago the neighbours were way behind; they've caught up well, not only here, but in SP Arty too by induction of K9s. looks like they've got a key eye on where they are deficit vis a vis us. 

IMO, the most likely way route left is Z10ME acquisition. 3 squadrons reequip, with the fourth boosted with more Mi-35s.

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## musaji

S-400 Pain: Turkey hires U.S. lobbyists to get an export license of T800-4A engines for Pakistan


Congressional leaders have blocked major U.S. arms sales to Turkey for almost two years in response to Ankara’s purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems, which the United States says threatens the…




www.globaldefensecorp.com

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Turkey has no technology to make high powered engine. Maybe 50 hp but not 1500 hp needed for helicopters.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Turkey has no technology to make high powered engine. Maybe 50 hp but not 1500 hp needed for helicopters.




TS1400 will make its first flight in the next 2 weeks Mad Kurd

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> TS1400 will make its first flight in the next 2 weeks Mad Kurd



Not with western sanction on Turkey.


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## capricorn5192

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320430828200091651

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## Irfan Baloch

musaji said:


> S-400 Pain: Turkey hires U.S. lobbyists to get an export license of T800-4A engines for Pakistan
> 
> 
> Congressional leaders have blocked major U.S. arms sales to Turkey for almost two years in response to Ankara’s purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems, which the United States says threatens the…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaldefensecorp.com


I like the way Turks are working. they are improvising and keeping all avenues open.

on one side they are actively seeking US export approval for the LHTEC T800 4A for Pakistani order and on the other their domestic industry is working on a local engine TS1400 as well which should complete its prototype development and testing by 2023.
I have my fingers crossed for successful testing and integration of Turkish powerplant on T-129 which will be US sanctions proof for future.

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## Irfan Baloch

PakAlp said:


> Definitely a mistake. They should have waited another 10 to 15 years, developed their defence industry fully. 5th generation fighter jets, helicopters, highly developed economy. They would have automatically risen as a regional power.
> 
> Unless ofcourse Turkey is confident they can make their own 5th, 6th generation fighter jets and engines, own helicopter engine etc, only time will tell.
> 
> Pakistan would love to have this gunship. 100 T129s and its bye bye to USA gunships


it is unfair and unwise to criticize Turkey's decision without understanding Turkish perspective, Turkey not only addressed the concerns and assured that Russian system wont be integrated with NATO defense network but repeatedly referred to the NATO charter which allows its member countries to buy any technology or system to safeguard and defend its territory. Turkey didnt violate any treaty clauses through the purchase and true to its word, it has kept the system separate from the NATO defense grid. 

the attitude and excuses of the Western countries (America and its lackeys) is unjust and malicious and they are coming with excuses of S400 spying on the F-35 features and passing the data through the S400 cloud to its manufacturer and thus finding a counter to the stealth features of one of the NATO premier jet of the future.

maybe you have more insight about Turkish air defense needs and its threat perceptions. but what I have seen and read on the open source suggests that Turkey needed land based effective air defense many years ago and this couldnt wait. 

Turkey repeatedly requested the Patriot systems from America but despite being an Ally and a NATO member, the request was turned down. this is something which even the current American president |Trump has criticized the previous administration for failing to sell the patriot systems. any objections or features requested by Turkey could've been negotiated and agreed upon and a refusal was never a good choice. 

Turkey was willing to buy more expensive S400 system due to its defense needs and went ahead with it despite all the political and military fallout from the west. this shows how much Turkey views its security given the new regional developments or deterioration around itself.

compatibility or compromising NATO defense grid was never a possibility as Turkey never intended to integrate with NATO defense grid. the NATO secretary general himself acknowledged the Turkish right to buy any system for its defense which is a clause in the NATO defense treaty for all member states.,

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## Nasr

capricorn5192 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320430828200091651



Hmm ... That is interesting. What about the F-16 spares, have the supplies restarted? And what about the F-35s, is Turkey going to be allowed to get these fighters?


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## Irfan Baloch

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Not with western sanction on Turkey.


do you understand what TS1400 he is referring to? its a domestically developed turbo shaft engine by TEI. this engine cant be sanctioned by the West. its prototype development and testing will conclude in few years time. it will be adapted for T-129 making the entire gunship sanctions proof.

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## wulff

I wish the americans would block the engine, or stall it for a few years so the deal finally collapses. Pakistan has for years been throwing billions of dollars away on questionable purchases, buying weapons that do nothing to offset the mil balance (HQ-16, frigates and corvettes, VT-4, the list could go on). It is almost like there are people trying to sabotage the defence budget every year.

Buying attack helicopters for 1.5 billion dollars is stupid for a country like Pakistan. PAF cannot attain air dominance over opponent's territory, and during such missions these attack helicopters will get shot down within no time. Notice how Azerbaijan's attack helicopters haven't undertaken offensive missions over karabagh, even after a month of warfare in which dozens of armenian air defences have been knocked out. Also notice how Turkey didn't employ the T-129 over Idlib in 2019. In both karabagh and idlib, the TB2s have done the CAS work and proven to be far more survivable.

Better options therefore exist for the same set of missions a T-129 fleet would perform. Bayraktar TB2 drones: extremely cheap, far more survivable and can be bought in much bigger numbers. Their ability to get past SAM systems is revolutioning drone warfare. And if you want to deliver a heavier punch, Chinese long range (~300 km) Guided MLRS systems can complement the TB-2 nicely. 

Ideally, however, given the lessons learned in recent conflicts, the money should have actually gone into the purchase of SAMs, ATGMs, and NLOS guided missiles.

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## Raja Porus

You are true that drones are the future but your quotation of AZ Armenian conflict is not totally correct. Though useful against small numbers of tanks and inf. Can drones carry enough atgms to meet an armoured thrust as the attack helicopters can. Moreover i don't know why we think that if some drones have destroyed old Soviet tanks they've become obsolete. Can a drone have the same offensive power as tank on a battlefield. Can it move fast,have sufficient firepower and protection. Vt4s can never be compared to drones . Also what about Active Protection system.

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## Dazzler

Forget ATAK.

Z-10MEs are coming.

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## YeBeWarned

Dazzler said:


> Forget ATAK.
> 
> Z-10MEs are coming.



any word or update of Zulu's ?


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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> Forget ATAK.
> 
> Z-10MEs are coming.


when and how many

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## aziqbal

did Turkey not recently hire a Lobbyist to get the engine deal through ?

could it have paid off ?


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## Inception-06

Dazzler said:


> Forget ATAK.
> 
> Z-10MEs are coming.



Allah da shukar ! We have wasted enough time and resources with Turkish weapons, which are strictly under American regime and restriction, like the harpoons missiles, the American did not allow the turkey to install the Harpoon missiles on the MRTP-33, we did get naked boats, so why they should allow the turkey to sell us American engines.. the end of story!


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

capricorn5192 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320430828200091651



Considering Trump will not win election, Biden will sanction Turkey hard, and Pakistan along with it. So I suppose no T129 will be delivered to Pakistan. In the meantime, Pakistan should order more Wing Loong 2 attack drones. Drone is the future. Helicopters are outdated.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Inception-06 said:


> Allah da shukar ! We have wasted enough time and resources with Turkish weapons, which a strictly under us regime, like the harpoons missiles, the American did not allow the turkey to install the Harpoon missiles on the MRTP-33, we did get naked boats, so why they should allow the turkey to sell us American engines.. the end of story!




Anything you claim is not allowed is given to the Turks. You can also look for the error a little bit.

You can integrate a Harpoon in a Chinese boat but I don't know?


Tai Hai Chen said:


> Considering Trump will not win election, Biden will sanction Turkey hard, and Pakistan along with it. So I suppose no T129 will be delivered to Pakistan. In the meantime, Pakistan should order more Wing Loong 2 attack drones. Drone is the future. Helicopters are outdated.




Biden never been to Turkey sanctions implementation. I do not know you're an ignorant, helpless before the election, but every Democrat like Obama knows he should threaten Turkey. Also nothing to do with the T129 engine export permission of Turkey, a country which can not receive even Zulus produced for error does not find itself in Turkey. I will continue to buy engines from America for 20 more years, but Pakistan will never get.

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## mingle

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Considering Trump will not win election, Biden will sanction Turkey hard, and Pakistan along with it. So I suppose no T129 will be delivered to Pakistan. In the meantime, Pakistan should order more Wing Loong 2 attack drones. Drone is the future. Helicopters are outdated.


You have no idea what situation US is now? 16 trillion$$ loss in COVID small business bankrupt high unemployment still in COVID and no end in sight along no smooth transition of power in this PE my friend all this China china talk is nothing more than hogwash to get vote. US is no position to dictate anyone any more they need business to recover not sanctions and they need both turkey and China to come out of it things are not good my friend


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## Marker

wulff said:


> I wish the americans would block the engine, or stall it for a few years so the deal finally collapses. Pakistan has for years been throwing billions of dollars away on questionable purchases, buying weapons that do nothing to offset the mil balance (HQ-16, frigates and corvettes, VT-4, the list could go on). It is almost like there are people trying to sabotage the defence budget every year.
> 
> Buying attack helicopters for 1.5 billion dollars is stupid for a country like Pakistan. PAF cannot attain air dominance over opponent's territory, and during such missions these attack helicopters will get shot down within no time. Notice how Azerbaijan's attack helicopters haven't undertaken offensive missions over karabagh, even after a month of warfare in which dozens of armenian air defences have been knocked out. Also notice how Turkey didn't employ the T-129 over Idlib in 2019. In both karabagh and idlib, the TB2s have done the CAS work and proven to be far more survivable.
> 
> Better options therefore exist for the same set of missions a T-129 fleet would perform. Bayraktar TB2 drones: extremely cheap, far more survivable and can be bought in much bigger numbers. Their ability to get past SAM systems is revolutioning drone warfare. And if you want to deliver a heavier punch, Chinese long range (~300 km) Guided MLRS systems can complement the TB-2 nicely.
> 
> Ideally, however, given the lessons learned in recent conflicts, the money should have actually gone into the purchase of SAMs, ATGMs, and NLOS guided missiles.


Weapon system employment is based on battle field strategy of advisory to counter and neutralize the threat.

Importance of attack helis do exist, specially in Pak-India conflict when there is a "cold start doctrine" on board.

Employment of drones, loitering munition or even SoWs can become ineffective in full scale EW and electronic jamming.

Therefore every weapon and weapon system have advantages and disadvantages. 

Up to date realization of adversary's strengths, weaknesses, terrain advantages, disadvantages and sometimes weather conditions determine employment of battle field weapons and weapon systems. Good field commanders know where, when and how to employ these weapons and weapon systems to inflict maximum damage to the adversary's war capabilities.

No military commander wants to keep and maintain useless, obsolete or less advantageous costly weapon system in their arsenal if they have the access to cheaper and more effective systems.

Pakistan armed forces commanders select weapon systems for procurement after in depth analysis of adversary war and support capability and advantages, disadvantages of the weapon system to counter this capability. Numerous test trials are being conducted to ascertain whether the weapon system is effective in actual battle field scenarios - variations in terrain (desert, green valley, mountainous) and weather (extreme cold to extreme hot).

The hard earn money being spent to procure such weapons and weapon systems to defend Pakistan borders, air space and sea lanes is fully justified.

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## Raja Porus

Dazzler said:


> Forget ATAK.
> 
> Z-10MEs are coming.


Has the atak deal been cancelled or what? Poor PAA will have take the helis it had rejected and like armoured Corps will have to operate a variety of aircraft 
What's the status of umtas deal


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## Dazzler

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Has the atak deal been cancelled or what? Poor PAA will have take the helis it had rejected and like armoured Corps will have to operate a variety of aircraft
> What's the status of umtas deal



Not cancelled. But the pace at which Chinese improve their systems is commendable. Vt4, now z10. ATAK is still not off the table though.

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## Raja Porus

Dazzler said:


> Not cancelled. But the pace at which Chinese improve their systems is commendable. Vt4, now z10. ATAK is still not off the table though.


So will the atak be here if the turks get the engine right even if we have z10.becuase we gave finalised the deal with them?


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## Zarvan

What I know is engine issue is resolved, and we would get T-129.

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> What I know is engine issue is resolved, and we would get T-129.


You refering that tweet by whisky papa?? If resolved it's a very good news for PAA


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## Trango Towers

Zarvan said:


> What I know is engine issue is resolved, and we would get T-129.


Anything concrete?


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## aziqbal

isn't the domestic engine getting closer?

look it would be great to get the T129 with American engines today 

however Pakistan knows this game very well 

we waited for decades for F16 and even ones we paid was returned in wheat refund, guess what? now we have Block III coming w=off the production line with ASEA

if it takes Turkey indigenous engine until 2025 or even 2030 lets just wait 

by then we can adjust the order can get T129 + ATAK II

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## Trango Towers

aziqbal said:


> isn't the domestic engine getting closer?
> 
> look it would be great to get the T129 with American engines today
> 
> however Pakistan knows this game very well
> 
> we waited for decades for F16 and even ones we paid was returned in wheat refund, guess what? now we have Block III coming w=off the production line with ASEA
> 
> if it takes Turkey indigenous engine until 2025 or even 2030 lets just wait
> 
> by then we can adjust the order can get T129 + ATAK II


Spend money on drones...future war is with drone


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## airmarshal

wulff said:


> I wish the americans would block the engine, or stall it for a few years so the deal finally collapses. Pakistan has for years been throwing billions of dollars away on questionable purchases, buying weapons that do nothing to offset the mil balance (HQ-16, frigates and corvettes, VT-4, the list could go on). It is almost like there are people trying to sabotage the defence budget every year.
> 
> Buying attack helicopters for 1.5 billion dollars is stupid for a country like Pakistan. PAF cannot attain air dominance over opponent's territory, and during such missions these attack helicopters will get shot down within no time. Notice how Azerbaijan's attack helicopters haven't undertaken offensive missions over karabagh, even after a month of warfare in which dozens of armenian air defences have been knocked out. Also notice how Turkey didn't employ the T-129 over Idlib in 2019. In both karabagh and idlib, the TB2s have done the CAS work and proven to be far more survivable.
> 
> Better options therefore exist for the same set of missions a T-129 fleet would perform. Bayraktar TB2 drones: extremely cheap, far more survivable and can be bought in much bigger numbers. Their ability to get past SAM systems is revolutioning drone warfare. And if you want to deliver a heavier punch, Chinese long range (~300 km) Guided MLRS systems can complement the TB-2 nicely.
> 
> Ideally, however, given the lessons learned in recent conflicts, the money should have actually gone into the purchase of SAMs, ATGMs, and NLOS guided missiles.



Drones are effective in asymmetrical war. Not when two military power confront each other. The ATAK mission will most likely be anti armor.

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## Salza

mingle said:


> You refering that tweet by whisky papa?? If resolved it's a very good news for PAA



Referring to DGISPR press conference few weeks back regarding engine issue. He hinted that there have been a positive development regarding t129 sale to Pakistan involving all the three parties. Lets see.

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## Trango Towers

Salza said:


> Referring to DGISPR press conference few weeks back regarding engine issue. He hinted that there have been a positive development regarding t129 sale to Pakistan involving all the three parties. Lets see.


It worries me that any American element can ground our machines. The objective should a long term Turkish engine. 
Why do we nit have a helicopter program under project azm


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## Salza

Trango Towers said:


> It worries me that any American element can ground our machines. The objective should a long term Turkish engine.
> *Why do we nit have a helicopter program under project azm*



Limited resources.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What is our delivery status for the T-129 Choppers look forward to seeing the 40 Units soon in Pakistani Forces
Turkish Engine would be preferred choice, due to ease of doing business reasons

The good thing about Helicopters is that all the helicopter can be assembled ahead of time as engine bay/engine can be added in of fitted in at end

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## Ghost 125

mingle said:


> You refering that tweet by whisky papa?? If resolved it's a very good news for PAA


Hi 
Whisky papa is a joke

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A major awaited item black T-129 or Chemo Chopper


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## Reichmarshal

Z 10 will see service in PAA soon.

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## Cool_Soldier

It looks upgraded Z10 ME and later on, T 129 will join PAA.

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## Deino

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> TS1400 will make its first flight in the next 2 weeks Mad Kurd




But making a maiden test flight in a few weeks does not mean a working, reliable and operational one - even more for export - is ready. At best add 5-6 years for flight testing operational testing and certification and that does not include any potential delays.

As such I don't know if Pakistan can or want to wait that long.

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## ali_raza

Reichmarshal said:


> Z 10 will see service in PAA soon.


it was an egg on our generals faces
when they panicked and went back to china
but chinese were nice enough to accommodate us and did some necessary changes z10 would be a nice edition on top of zulu cobrqs

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Deino said:


> But making a maiden test flight in a few weeks does not mean a working, reliable and operational one - even more for export - is ready. At best add 5-6 years for flight testing operational testing and certification and that does not include any potential delays.
> 
> As such I don't know if Pakistan can or want to wait that long.




Even tests require thousands of hours and may not even be put into production if it fails to meet the requirements. Thanks for your great answer, as a mechanical engineer, you don't need to repeat what a 20-year-old technician knows, you can look at who and what post I wrote the answer


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## Deino

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Even tests require thousands of hours and may not even be put into production if it fails to meet the requirements. Thanks for your great answer, as a mechanical engineer, you don't need to repeat what a 20-year-old technician knows, you can look at who and what post I wrote the answer




Care to explain why aou are again pissed off only due to a reply you don't like??

You posted nothing on behalf to explain or added that "Even tests require thousands of hours"; all you posted was this statement again misleading that it might be ready soon and even worse you spiced it up with an insult:







Honestly, if you cannot accept critical thinking or notes that does not fit your agenda, you should leave and look for another forum. It's like not liking rain and fog and then going to live in GB but constantly complaining that the sun always shine on you!


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## Bossman

Desert Fox 1 said:


> You are true that drones are the future but your quotation of AZ Armenian conflict is not totally correct. Though useful against small numbers of tanks and inf. Can drones carry enough atgms to meet an armoured thrust as the attack helicopters can. Moreover i don't know why we think that if some drones have destroyed old Soviet tanks they've become obsolete. Can a drone have the same offensive power as tank on a battlefield. Can it move fast,have sufficient firepower and protection. Vt4s can never be compared to drones . Also what about Active Protection system.


What qualifies you as such an expert?


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## Akh1112

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> "Mad Kurd" in Turkey said that the technology to develop 1,500 hp outboard engine. I also said that it will be integrated into the helicopter after 2 weeks, maybe because you are an ignorant who does not understand and pretend to understand something, your intelligence or scholar may not understand this, but since the engine is tested at sea level, it will give power up to 1660 HP in nominal terms. This shows that Turkey can make a turbine engine 1500 hp. Which nominal value at which sea level or not is related to your standards. An American company may find that an engine of the same class can fail to deliver 1000 shp at 20000 feet and may not put it into production, but a Chinese will develop an engine of the same class and find a value of 800 shp at an altitude of 20000 feet sufficient to produce.. This doesn't mean the American is worse than the Chinese, as a result they both built the engine.
> Your answer to us has nothing to do. The engine moment any way transfer case 1500 shp power, Turkey make this engine and I'd been right. Can you shut your mouth now?
> You compare yourself with known people like MME and try to see yourself smarter than others, you are on the wrong track. Just because I don't give a long answer every time, it doesn't mean you're smart.



dont be an asshole

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## maverick1977

Folks what the total tally of new Helis deliveries of Army Aviation ?


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## Akh1112

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> If you have an answer, give it ?


you havent asked a question.


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## Deino

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> "Mad Kurd" in Turkey said that the technology to develop 1,500 hp outboard engine. I also said that it will be integrated into the helicopter after 2 weeks, maybe because you are an ignorant who does not understand and pretend to understand something, your intelligence or scholar may not understand this, but since the engine is tested at sea level, it will give power up to 1660 HP in nominal terms. This shows that Turkey can make a turbine engine 1500 hp. Which nominal value at which sea level or not is related to your standards. An American company may find that an engine of the same class can fail to deliver 1000 shp at 20000 feet and may not put it into production, but a Chinese will develop an engine of the same class and find a value of 800 shp at an altitude of 20000 feet sufficient to produce.. This doesn't mean the American is worse than the Chinese, as a result they both built the engine.
> Your answer to us has nothing to do. The engine moment any way transfer case 1500 shp power, Turkey make this engine and I'd been right. Can you shut your mouth now?
> You compare yourself with known people like MME and try to see yourself smarter than others, you are on the wrong track. Just because I don't give a long answer every time, it doesn't mean you're smart.






Akh1112 said:


> you havent asked a question.




Again in simple words since - as you claimed I'm nothing but a stupid, ignorant foreigner with a well-known bias anti Turkey - but by your estimation: When will the engine we ready for production, certified and ready to be exported?

I don't need again a tirade of long harsh insulting words but only a date!

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Deino said:


> Again in simple words since - as you claimed I'm nothing but a stupid, ignorant foreigner with a well-known bias anti Turkey - but by your estimation: When will the engine we ready for production, certified and ready to be exported?
> 
> I don't need again a tirade of long harsh insulting words but only a date!




I guess you really have to understand the problem, the helicopter when I do not care in the slightest way to go into production, he said to me do not have the capacity to change the engine 1500 hp power of Turkey and told me to 1500 hp engine capable of producing was already ready and I made the first flight after 2 weeks, as a result of this This engine is made as it can generate power. It's done. The issue is not where you can use it, international certification or preparation for mass production. Because you thought yourself too clever, you highlighted the "difficulties of tests, that great knowledge nobody knew", but that was never the case.


Akh1112 said:


> you havent asked a question.



Also I didn't ask what I should be ?


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## Raja Porus

Bossman said:


> What qualifies you as such an expert?


An mq9 can carry only 4 atgms while costs 16 million. On the other hand z10 can carry approx 16 hj8, which are already being used by our army(also a 23 mm mg and 57/90 mm rockets) ,while it costs only 18 million 
Also please be a bit polite

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## Deino

Akh1112 said:


> you havent asked a question.





RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I guess you really have to understand the problem, the helicopter when I do not care in the slightest way to go into production, he said to me do not have the capacity to change the engine 1500 hp power of Turkey and told me to 1500 hp engine capable of producing was already ready and I made the first flight after 2 weeks, as a result of this This engine is made as it can generate power. It's done. The issue is not where you can use it, international certification or preparation for mass production. Because you thought yourself too clever, you highlighted the "difficulties of tests, that great knowledge nobody knew", but that was never the case.
> 
> 
> Also I didn't ask what I should be ?




So you again avoid a simple answer to a simple question since for you it is enough, the engine works in a test? But again, Pakistan cannot wait and I'm sure given the PA's quite strict requirements "This engine is made as it can generate power." won't be enough.

So again, when do you think will be the indigenous powerplant for the T.129 ready so that it can be exported?

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Deino said:


> So you again avoid a simple answer to a simple question since for you it is enough, the engine works in a test? But again, Pakistan cannot wait and I'm sure given the PA's quite strict requirements "This engine is made as it can generate power." won't be enough.
> 
> So again, when do you think will be the indigenous powerplant for the T.129 ready so that it can be exported?




TS1400 will not be ready for T129 for at least 3 years. You may not know because you are talking empty and rote, but I told them in this forum that whenever Pakistani members say we should wait for the engine of the Turks, they will not be ready anytime soon.


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## Reichmarshal

ali_raza said:


> it was an egg on our generals faces
> when they panicked and went back to china
> but chinese were nice enough to accommodate us and did some necessary changes z10 would be a nice edition on top of zulu cobrqs


When they came here initially they had short comings, which with the help of PAA crews were rectified and now it's a beast of a machine. Now it told it's own against all n sundry.

Its a decision made on marit

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## ali_raza

Reichmarshal said:


> When they came here initially they had short comings, which with the help of PAA crews were rectified and now it's a beast of a machine. Now it told it's own against all n sundry.
> 
> Its a decision made on marit


then atak was made on wht
kickboxing


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## eagleeye

i think we will see ts1400 on atak within 2021 . integration and test of the engine should not take more than 1 year. t129 is military helicopter it does not need complicated and lond lasted aesa certification.

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## IblinI

Reichmarshal said:


> Z 10 will see service in PAA soon.


how many,sir?


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## Awan68

I fail to understand what advantage Attack heli's offer over UCAV's, can anyone answer this?
@PanzerKiel

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## PanzerKiel

Awan68 said:


> I fail to understand what advantage Attack heli's offer over UCAV's, can anyone answer this?
> @PanzerKiel


Helis can hover, static......imagine hovering behind a sand dune, at ground level, then suddenly pops up, shoots couple of ATGMs, then goes back to hide....morever, attack helis are equally effective against dismounted infantry....

UCAVs can;t do all this, they generally fly higher, are easily detected, and their use against infantry is not cost beneficial.....moreover, their loadout is also limited, attack helis can take on much more weapons and ammo of all types.....

Attack helis and UCAVs both have separate roles to play, both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both easily complement each other.

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## Awan68

PanzerKiel said:


> Helis can hover, static......imagine hovering behind a sand dune, at ground level, then suddenly pops up, shoots couple of ATGMs, then goes back to hide....morever, attack helis are equally effective against dismounted infantry....
> 
> UCAVs can;t do all this, they generally fly higher, are easily detected, and their use against infantry is not cost beneficial.....moreover, their loadout is also limited, attack helis can take on much more weapons and ammo of all types.....
> 
> Attack helis and UCAVs both have separate roles to play, both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both easily complement each other.


Thanks for clearing this up. Much appreciated.

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## IblinI

IblinI said:


> how many,sir?


why do we have to make a choice between heli/drone, tank/drone...etc. let's have everything.

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## Irfan Baloch

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> "Mad Kurd" in Turkey said that the technology to develop 1,500 hp outboard engine. I also said that it will be integrated into the helicopter after 2 weeks, maybe because you are an ignorant who does not understand and pretend to understand something, your intelligence or scholar may not understand this, but since the engine is tested at sea level, it will give power up to 1660 HP in nominal terms. This shows that Turkey can make a turbine engine 1500 hp. Which nominal value at which sea level or not is related to your standards. An American company may find that an engine of the same class can fail to deliver 1000 shp at 20000 feet and may not put it into production, but a Chinese will develop an engine of the same class and find a value of 800 shp at an altitude of 20000 feet sufficient to produce.. This doesn't mean the American is worse than the Chinese, as a result they both built the engine.
> Your answer to us has nothing to do. The engine moment any way transfer case 1500 shp power, Turkey make this engine and I'd been right. Can you shut your mouth now?
> You compare yourself with known people like MME and try to see yourself smarter than others, you are on the wrong track. Just because I don't give a long answer every time, it doesn't mean you're smart.


*
you better tone down you response brother.*
lets stay civilized and control our anger. yes that is the challenge which we must take and win. that we take a long breath and respond politely but firmly clarifying our position or don't reply. 

leaving on mere disagreement and getting angry is not a good option. disagreements and polite arguments create interesting debate and make us work harder for our point of view.

should I expect a mature and civilized response from you?
*remember I called you brother*. think hard, if you feel the need to insult me or anyone else, please stop yourself right there.

thanks

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## Sayfullah

Is their any possibility that we can give our retiring ah-1 cobras to fc to use along pak afghan border?

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## Raja Porus

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Is their any possibility that we can give our retiring ah-1 cobras to fc to use along pak afghan border?


It'd be better if we give them to our troops in Baluchistan

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## Yasser76

Desert Fox 1 said:


> It'd be better if we give them to our troops in Baluchistan




These assets are aging, the airframes are very tired and the relative cost per flight hour is increasing. Combined with the fact that if we gave them to FC we would still need trained pilot, technicians and logistics. Pak Army manpower and funding is not unlimited. Also at some point they will become dangerous to fly.

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## Sunny4pak

*T129 Engine & Delivery to Pakistan | KANUPP 2 Starts*

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## sal29

Awan68 said:


> I fail to understand what advantage Attack heli's offer over UCAV's, can anyone answer this?
> @PanzerKiel



Besides what PanzerKiel mentioned you also have to take into account that in todays war theater there will be a significant amount of electromagnetic spectrum jamming which will have a profound effect on UAV especially if they are manual or semi autonomous. You cannot guarantee that you will be able to use a UAV in all theaters. Uptill now there have been no war fought between high tech adversaries which used UAV in conflict. (Azeri and Armenian example is a bad one as Armenians dont really have good jamming equipment).

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## xbat

sal29 said:


> (Azeri and Armenian example is a bad one as Armenians dont really have good jamming equipment).


no they got modern jammers from russia but wasnt enough to be good

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

xbat said:


> no they got modern jammers from russia but wasnt enough to be good


against the Turkish EW systems, which can decode and apply the counter-measures on-the-fly...

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## kursed

Next generation military UAVs in the US and elsewhere are being designed to counter enemy EW, from scratch. And we will end up seeing more of them on the battlefield. Not less.

US army is getting a specific anti-IADS role, courtesy next gen UAVs.

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## xbat

first TEI TS-1400 engine delivered to TAI today








Recep Tayyip Erdoğan @RT_Erdogan


İlk millî helikopter motorumuz TEİ-TS1400’ün teslimine ve Tasarım Merkezi Açılış Töreni’ne canlı bağlantı gerçekleştiriyoruz.




www.pscp.tv

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## Liquidmetal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1335246052224602119

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Pak's long wait for ATAK choppers, hopefully with full Pak based production capabilities, are there to end at last!!! The Turkish TS-1400 turbo-shaft engines, whose various versions will be used for ATAK and ATAK-2 platforms, have been handed over for the integration with the Gokbey utility choppers as the first step!_ Elhamdulillah.._..

That _Muthish_ sound....









Yerli helikopter Gökbey'e güç verecek yerli ve milli motor TEİ-TS1400'ün ateşlendiği anlar


Cumhurbaşkanı Recep Tayyip Erdoğan'ın katılımıyla, İlk Milli Helikopter Motoru TEİ-TS1400'ün Teslimi ve Tasarım Merkezi Açılış Töreni gerçekleşti. Yerli motor canlı yayın bağlantısıyla ateşlendi.




www.yenisafak.com

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The footage of the "firing" of TS-1400 turbo-shaft engine...





---------------------

More vidoes on TS-1400..

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

This video on TS-1400 engine has English subtitles!! _Reis _Erdo'an has inaugurated it with "_Ya Allah! Bismillah!!_"...

This engine has been placed under the _Emanet_ and_ Hifazet _of none other than _Allah-u Azimushshan...._

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## Scorpiooo

So how many years in actual to be in production mode using TS1400 for atak 129

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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> So how many years in actual to be in production mode using TS1400 for atak 129


It depends on how fast they can place it in first helicopter and how fast that helicopter passes all the trials.

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## That Guy

Awan68 said:


> I fail to understand what advantage Attack heli's offer over UCAV's, can anyone answer this?
> @PanzerKiel


Close range air support, with constant fire.

Drones tend to be high up, and their missile launches can take a while to travel. Once the very limited amount of missiles that modern UCAVs use are depleted, the drone has to return.

With a helicopter, the air support can get real close. It can carry a bigger payload, provide suppressive fire, and when it runs out of it's pretty large quantity of missiles, it can use its main cannon to remain in active combat.

Both systems have their ups and downs.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Ts1400 will never be used in helicopters to be produced for Pakistan, nobody has such times. Do you enjoy deceiving yourself and humiliating us to the nation

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## aziqbal

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Pak's long wait for ATAK choppers, hopefully with full Pak based production capabilities, are there to end at last!!! The Turkish TS-1400 turbo-shaft engines, whose various versions will be used for ATAK and ATAK-2 platforms, have been handed over for the integration with the Gokbey utility choppers as the first step!_ Elhamdulillah.._..
> 
> That _Muthish_ sound....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yerli helikopter Gökbey'e güç verecek yerli ve milli motor TEİ-TS1400'ün ateşlendiği anlar
> 
> 
> Cumhurbaşkanı Recep Tayyip Erdoğan'ın katılımıyla, İlk Milli Helikopter Motoru TEİ-TS1400'ün Teslimi ve Tasarım Merkezi Açılış Töreni gerçekleşti. Yerli motor canlı yayın bağlantısıyla ateşlendi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yenisafak.com



Alhamdulliallah all Praise Belongs to Allah and His Messenger

I really want this T129 deal to succeed and also want to see Turkey master the core engine technologies

Inshallah this decade belongs to the reemergence of Islamic powers from the East and the West

mastering the Turbo shaft is no small feat of engineering its a milestone

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## Ali_Baba

That engine will take a few years to mature and debug all the probems out of it. I dont see them being ready for Pakistan. Lets be realistic.

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## Irfan Baloch

Scorpiooo said:


> So how many years in actual to be in production mode using TS1400 for atak 129


I thik I have linked the paragraphs from different websites already on this thread. Turks re positive that engine will complete its testing on the helicopters (utility first and then ATAK 129 in next 3 yers).
. the TAI website I visited gave a timeline of 2023 of completion of testing on the helicopters

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It depends on how fast they can place it in first helicopter and how fast that helicopter passes all the trials.


NOT so quick Hazrat, this engine has ONLY passed its first hurdle and that is manufacturing the trials and further testing will take years! so dont jump for joy yet.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> NOT so quick Hazrat, this engine has ONLY passed its first hurdle and that is manufacturing the trials and further testing will take years! so dont jump for joy yet.


I am not jumping on anything. And not it has passes initial trials. Now the trials which are left are one when it would be integrated with helicopter. That is why it's handed over to TAI.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Zarvan said:


> I am not jumping on anything. And not it has passes initial trials. Now the trials which are left are one when it would be integrated with helicopter. That is why it's handed over to TAI.


The integration of TS-1400 with Gokbey chopper will be completed ASAP. But, the real hurdle is passing the EU certification. Usually, it takes 3 months of constant tests, but for Turkey they extend it up to a year for they can't believe that the Turkish folks are surpassing them.....

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## Irfan Baloch

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The integration of TS-1400 with Gokbey chopper will be completed ASAP. But, the real hurdle is passing the EU certification. Usually, it takes 3 months of constant tests, but for Turkey they extend it up to a year for they can't believe that the Turkish folks are surpassing them.....


let them bring new tests and add further test regimes and if not done already , increase the test parameters pass requirements for certification
but I am sure that due to sheer awesomeness of the Turks the engine will pass though everything the jealous and hatred of Europeans will put in the way.
if it was up to me then I would wait for more years until the Turkish engine is tested and integrated successfully into its utility and ATAK T 129 helicopters instead of settling for an under performing Z-10 that doesn't match up to T -129

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## mingle

PAA should bank on ATAK 2 heavy weight since turkish engine is coming out will take 2-3 yrs to get mature ATAK 2 is better option since we are not in rush anymore or as stop gap PAA can induct Z10 ME ATAK 2 is a good replacement for our cobras and can be induct in decent numbers

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## eagleeye

Zarvan said:


> It depends on how fast they can place it in first helicopter and how fast that helicopter passes all the trials.




gökbey has also civilian version the integration, trials and tests and the additional aesa certification will take 2 years . one of the experts said for military vehicle like atak will taken 3 month because it does not need aesa certgificatzion.

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## Signalian

sal29 said:


> Besides what PanzerKiel mentioned you also have to take into account that in todays war theater there will be a significant amount of electromagnetic spectrum jamming which will have a profound effect on UAV especially if they are manual or semi autonomous. You cannot guarantee that you will be able to use a UAV in all theaters. Uptill now there have been no war fought between high tech adversaries which used UAV in conflict. (Azeri and Armenian example is a bad one as Armenians dont really have good jamming equipment).


Such threats (EW) are considered in design phase and then in deployment phase of the UAV. Every Army deploys its weapons according to its own Ops plans. Assets are not sent into battlefield blind and allowed to be jammed. Recon and Intel reports are taken into consideration.

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## Hassan Guy

So... we just wait for other countries to develop their capabilities while we do practically nothing in the meantime....


aight

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## imadul

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The footage of the "firing" of TS-1400 turbo-shaft engine...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> More vidoes on TS-1400..


There was news TS1400 was first fired last in 2019. Now TEI has delivered it to TAI its parent company that would mean all tests are done and now integration and aviation tests will be conducted on the utility aircraft platform. 
This is a big news. Maturing of the turboshaft engine will take time. It is both engineering and art. PA should go with these engines for T129 and become part of the flight test, evaluation, and integration testing.

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## sal29

Signalian said:


> Such threats (EW) are considered in design phase and then in deployment phase of the UAV. Every Army deploys its weapons according to its own Ops plans. Assets are not sent into battlefield blind and allowed to be jammed. Recon and Intel reports are taken into consideration.


 I don't think I said in my post that UAV are useless my point was that only having UAV is not the option as its operations cant be guaranteed in all cases hence attack helicopters are also required along with UAVs.


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## Falcon26

Pakistan should ideally be jumping on this Turkish engine program. At least, make these engines domestically.

Pakistan should integrate its defense industry with Turkey. Imagine Turkish defense manufacturers owning stakes in Pakistani enterprises like PAC, HIT, KSEW etc.

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## JamD

Hassan Guy said:


> So... we just wait for other countries to develop their capabilities while we do practically nothing in the meantime....
> 
> 
> aight
> View attachment 693893
> View attachment 693894

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## Akh1112

Hassan Guy said:


> So... we just wait for other countries to develop their capabilities while we do practically nothing in the meantime....
> 
> 
> aight
> View attachment 693893
> View attachment 693894




It is Pakistan after all

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## Incog_nito

Will TAI allow Pakistan to license produce them in Pakistan?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Incog_nito said:


> Will TAI allow Pakistan to license produce them in Pakistan?


Sky is the limit by HIS PERMISSION....

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## Irfan Baloch

Incog_nito said:


> Will TAI allow Pakistan to license produce them in Pakistan?


let the engine integration and trials to complete successfully then demand exclusive favors from Turkey while expecting discounts and concessions very little or no money.

to your Question will TAI allow Pakistan to license produce them?
yes of course they will give up all their hard work, R&D and their Patent so that Pakistan can benefit from it as it pleases because we expect them to do this its a hardwired mentality in us to give nothing but expect all and then get dramatic and upset when we are shown our worth and put in place by our brothers like KSA and UAE.

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## Aryeih Leib

Irfan Baloch said:


> let the engine integration and trials to complete successfully then demand exclusive favors from Turkey while expecting discounts and concessions very little or no money.
> 
> to your Question will TAI allow Pakistan to license produce them?
> yes of course they will give up all their hard work, R&D and their Patent so that Pakistan can benefit from it as it pleases because we expect them to do this its a hardwired mentality in us to give nothing but expect all and then get dramatic and upset when we are shown our worth and put in place by our brothers like KSA and UAE.


Isn't it a licensed product from Agusta A129 Mangusta


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## xbat

Aryeih Leib said:


> Isn't it a licensed product from Agusta A129 Mangusta


Turkey bought IP rights of the helicopter , AW cant sell this helicopter to any outside country except Italy and UK. So the heli is basically Turkish anymore, all avionic suit is Turkish design , AW is nothing for avionics of the heli.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

xbat said:


> Turkey bought IP rights of the helicopter , AW cant sell this helicopter to any outside country except Italy and UK. So the heli is basically Turkish anymore, all avionic suit is Turkish design , AW is nothing for avionics of the heli.



Also we can't sell Italy


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## imadul

Incog_nito said:


> Will TAI allow Pakistan to license produce them in Pakistan?


Pakistan, or let's say it will be PAC, won't be able to do that. Turbofan engines are the platinum standard of metallurgical engineering, mechanical, thermodynamics and mechanical engineering. 
At best PAC can assemble and setup MRO facilities.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

One of the problems before the engines is the transmission. Pakistan will need the infrastructure and metallurgy to produce it.

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## MIRauf

No, they have spent pretty penny and lot's of time for their engine development. It's similar to Pak sharing their Nuke tech just on the name of Islamic Brotherhood.


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## Incog_nito

With all the discussion, I can just say that I'm quite sure that 30 T-129 ATAK will be coming to PAA.

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## That Guy

Irfan Baloch said:


> let the engine integration and trials to complete successfully then demand exclusive favors from Turkey while expecting discounts and concessions very little or no money.
> 
> to your Question will TAI allow Pakistan to license produce them?
> yes of course they will give up all their hard work, R&D and their Patent so that Pakistan can benefit from it as it pleases because we expect them to do this its a hardwired mentality in us to give nothing but expect all and then get dramatic and upset when we are shown our worth and put in place by our brothers like KSA and UAE.


I'm pretty sure that Turkey originally offered Pakistan local production, as well as some limited ToT, so long as Pakistan picks the T-129 over the Z-10 and the Zulu, and orders a decent amount.

So its not outside of the realm of possibility.

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## araz

That Guy said:


> I'm pretty sure that Turkey originally offered Pakistan local production, as well as some limited ToT, so long as Pakistan picks the T-129 over the Z-10 and the Zulu, and orders a decent amount.
> 
> So its not outside of the realm of possibility.


I think provided Pakistan can produce parts of the Helo it will be a win win for both countries as Manufacturing costs for Pakistan would be lower than that of Turkey.
A

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## Irfan Baloch

araz said:


> I think provided Pakistan can produce parts of the Helo it will be a win win for both countries as Manufacturing costs for Pakistan would be lower than that of Turkey.
> A





That Guy said:


> I'm pretty sure that Turkey originally offered Pakistan local production, as well as some limited ToT, so long as Pakistan picks the T-129 over the Z-10 and the Zulu, and orders a decent amount.
> 
> So its not outside of the realm of possibility.


economies of scale...
the setup in Pakistan for local assembly/ production (partial or limited) should be justified by a substantial number of units.

what I dont know is

what is the justifiable number?
what is justifiable timescale?
what is the current inventory?
will that number increase or decrease?
will PN and PAF also require their own units?
possibility of sharing production with TAI ? in case of future export possibilities?

if the plan is for 100s then maybe it will make sense to send our technicians to Turkey or bring their trainers here to train our workers (first make them available through fresh recruitment or peel them off from other projects ) and then find suitable locations to setup the workshops and factories within justifiable time frame. 

*following is not aimed at you but this rant is on all those baby posters over the year who remind me of (Anokha Ladla khalnay ko mangay chand)*

g I find is amusing (if not irritating) that the moment a weapon or a platform is mentioned for Pakistan, then regardless of the ridiculousness of it all, our posters start including ToT, total intellectual rights and letter of gratitude from the supplier without considering

where the funds will come from?
if there is any planning or budget for that ambition?
is there technical workforce available?
why must every "brotherly" nation must surrender its technology or its funds for us Pakistanis?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Irfan Baloch said:


> economies of scale...
> the setup in Pakistan for local assembly/ production (partial or limited) should be justified by a substantial number of units.
> 
> what I dont know is
> 
> what is the justifiable number?
> what is justifiable timescale?
> what is the current inventory?
> will that number increase or decrease?
> will PN and PAF also require their own units?
> possibility of sharing production with TAI ? in case of future export possibilities?
> 
> if the plan is for 100s then maybe it will make sense to send our technicians to Turkey or bring their trainers here to train our workers (first make them available through fresh recruitment or peel them off from other projects ) and then find suitable locations to setup the workshops and factories within justifiable time frame.
> 
> *following is not aimed at you but this rant is on all those baby posters over the year who remind me of (Anokha Ladla khalnay ko mangay chand)*
> 
> g I find is amusing (if not irritating) that the moment a weapon or a platform is mentioned for Pakistan, then regardless of the ridiculousness of it all, our posters start including ToT, total intellectual rights and letter of gratitude from the supplier without considering
> 
> where the funds will come from?
> if there is any planning or budget for that ambition?
> is there technical workforce available?
> why must every "brotherly" nation must surrender its technology or its funds for us Pakistanis?


Pak might have already made the down payment for that....

You don’t necessarily put everything in your “official” books!! Even Al Capone got caught because of a slight mistake over there....

The “White Middle Aged Male” accountants and lawyers, thy names are Devils...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The 10-ton ATAK-2 is named as T-929!!! It's Apachee class combat chopper. Hopefully, Pak goes for it....

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## araz

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The 10-ton ATAK-2 is named as T-929!!! It's Apachee class combat chopper. Hopefully, Pak goes for it....


You can name it whatever you want but the engine issue needs resolving before the helos become a safe bet to buy. I wish my brothers success in this endeavour but till the issue is resolved no one is going to come to Turkey for buying their products. In many ways the US/West has not allowed Turkey keynote products to retain control. You tried selling a/product and they put the spanners in the works. Turkey Iam sure was aware of the issues and making endeavours to achieve success but the project has matured before the/engine project has and hence the difficulties. Once the engine issue is over and done with and on completion of testing Iam sure Pakistan will be knocking on Turkey's doors.
A

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

araz said:


> You can name it whatever you want but the engine issue needs resolving before the helos become a safe bet to buy. I wish my brothers success in this endeavour but till the issue is resolved no one is going to come to Turkey for buying their products. In many ways the US/West has not allowed Turkey keynote products to retain control. You tried selling a/product and they put the spanners in the works. Turkey Iam sure was aware of the issues and making endeavours to achieve success but the project has matured before the/engine project has and hence the difficulties. Once the engine issue is over and done with and on completion of testing Iam sure Pakistan will be knocking on Turkey's doors.
> A


The indigenous engine for Gokbey - utility chopper - is going for the serial production after the certification from the European civil aviation authority. And, the same engine will be used for ATAK-1. A scaled up version will be used for ATAK-2. As for the indigenous chopper engines, it’s a matter of a couple of years...

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## Successwill

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The 10-ton ATAK-2 is named as T-929!!! It's Apachee class combat chopper. Hopefully, Pak goes for it....



Turkey has a task to deliver 30 T-129 first. 80th Atak is under construction, i hope a few goes to Pakistan.

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## araz

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The indigenous engine for Gokbey - utility chopper - is going for the serial production after the certification from the European civil aviation authority. And, the same engine will be used for ATAK-1. A scaled up version will be used for ATAK-2. As for the indigenous chopper engines, it’s a matter of a couple of years...


Count your chickens once they hatch, not before. Till the engine gets certified and an uprated version gets developed is a route full of hurdles especially in engine manufacturing. So do not be so confident just yet. 
I mean it with the best of intentions. Iam well aware of the Turkish aviation sector and its capabilities. However sub assembly to indegenous engine is a long and arduous route and becoming over confident will lead one to err.
A


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## MastanKhan

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The indigenous engine for Gokbey - utility chopper - is going for the serial production after the certification from the European civil aviation authority. And, the same engine will be used for ATAK-1. A scaled up version will be used for ATAK-2. As for the indigenous chopper engines, it’s a matter of a couple of years...




Hi,

there is a day and night difference between manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine and an attack helicopter engine.

Fighter aircraft engines are a totally different breed of machines like no other---or maybe like the race car engines---a race car engine that is constantly using maximum rpms and then suddenly goes down in rpm's and then suddenly back to full throttle again---up and won up and down---.

The attack helicopter engine does to go those rigors of flight and change in engine rpm's---.

The engines that operate at steadier rpm's are comparatively easy to manufacture as compared to those whose operationals ranges are between mid range to 110% of power.

So---possibly---the Turks could come with with a viable helicopter engine---.

But the deal of a turkish helicopter was a bad deal right from the gitgo---.

sanctions were obvious right from day one---.

This deal was another sabotage on the integrity of pakistani defences----.

This deal was planned by saboteurs of pakistan---make a deal to please the pakistani public---but defence weapons will never be delivered or be delayed because of known sanctions---stupid pakistanis will never know about it---and pakistan would be hurt in its defences.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

araz said:


> Count your chickens once they hatch, not before. Till the engine gets certified and an uprated version gets developed is a route full of hurdles especially in engine manufacturing. So do not be so confident just yet.
> I mean it with the best of intentions. Iam well aware of the Turkish aviation sector and its capabilities. However sub assembly to indegenous engine is a long and arduous route and becoming over confident will lead one to err.
> A



_With the realization of this Turboshaft engine technology we've graduated to the champion's league (Britain, Germany, France etc.) in this sector - Prof. Dr. Faruk Aksit, TEI Chief_

We consider it a done deal! After having a PhD from the Reseller Polytechnic Institute and working at GE's turbo-engine group for 10+years, Dr Faruk Aksit (TEI chief) won't let it go if he's not 110% sure of the certification!!! By the by, Turkey has built a state-of-the-art Test Environment to test the jet engines of all sorts....

TEI has investments and business deals with GE. Almost all GE turbo-engines have a noticeable number of movable parts produced by TEI. If the Turkish Defense industry hasn't had this much of intellectual honesty of adhering to their promises they couldn't have destroyed the top-notch Russian systems so proficiently, and nor the West would have applied so much of sanction on them....

*This _Fakir_ has decades of engineering R&D experience working in humble projects. I personally know how tough our bosses are regarding meeting the performance, functionality, reliability etc. specs for they don't want to be fooled at the point of no return

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> there is a day and night difference between manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine and an attack helicopter engine.
> 
> Fighter aircraft engines are a totally different breed of machines like no other---or maybe like the race car engines---a race car engine that is constantly using maximum rpms and then suddenly goes down in rpm's and then suddenly back to full throttle again---up and won up and down---.
> 
> The attack helicopter engine does to go those rigors of flight and change in engine rpm's---.
> 
> The engines that operate at steadier rpm's are comparatively easy to manufacture as compared to those whose operationals ranges are between mid range to 110% of power.
> 
> So---possibly---the Turks could come with with a viable helicopter engine---.
> 
> But the deal of a turkish helicopter was a bad deal right from the gitgo---.
> 
> sanctions were obvious right from day one---.
> 
> This deal was another sabotage on the integrity of pakistani defences----.
> 
> This deal was planned by saboteurs of pakistan---make a deal to please the pakistani public---but defence weapons will never be delivered or be delayed because of known sanctions---stupid pakistanis will never know about it---and pakistan would be hurt in its defences.


The "core engine" part is the same for turbo-shaft, turbo-prop and turbo-fan engines! The most important part is to produce single crystal blades from the "powdered" Ni, W etc. to withstand 2,000C+ temp under high pressure conditions for thousands of hours with a very high (six sigma) part-to-part reliability and very low performance degradation conditions. _Elhamdulillah_ TEI has been successfully producing both the raw materials ["powdered" Ni, W etc.] and single crystal blades since 2017! Turbo-props and turbo-shafts are already technology-wise done and are in serial productions. As for Turbo-fans it'll take time but all the building blocks are there!!! Engineering R&D is all about linear progression, not quantum leaps. For a reason the West has put so much sanctions on Turkey, but they're late!!! The closest reminiscence of this Turkish endeavor is the Pak nuclear program.....

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## python-000

Simple conclusion is this that we cant get our T-129 before 2022 to 2025 so it is better to go for Z-10ME on urgent bases from China & expend deadline for Turkey for the delivery of these choppers...

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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> You can name it whatever you want but the engine issue needs resolving before the helos become a safe bet to buy. I wish my brothers success in this endeavour but till the issue is resolved no one is going to come to Turkey for buying their products. In many ways the US/West has not allowed Turkey keynote products to retain control. You tried selling a/product and they put the spanners in the works. Turkey Iam sure was aware of the issues and making endeavours to achieve success but the project has matured before the/engine project has and hence the difficulties. Once the engine issue is over and done with and on completion of testing Iam sure Pakistan will be knocking on Turkey's doors.
> A


Hi sir if I may ask is there any possibility for a Russian engines to go with ATAK /2 or something to 10 ton heli in progress for the Turks as these days Turks /Russians are well closed to each others as usa recently put some more restrictions towards Turkish defence firms 
if possible to answer 
thank you


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## Readerdefence

python-000 said:


> Simple conclusion is this that we cant get our T-129 before 2022 to 2025 so it is better to go for Z-10ME on urgent bases from China & expend deadline for Turkey for the delivery of these choppers...


Hi sir if I may you can’t give any deadlines between these two countries as lot of things been supplied to PN and offcourse PAF & PA also and most of these are not credit so these credit can go further & further at the end Pakistan can always get something else from turks as they are more refined then POF or others Pakistani defence productions 
at the end Turks also want to get along with these helicopters as for their own use and utilisation for their own forces 
but here you are right about getting Z10/ME or whatever latest but we do have to keep one thing in mind may be Pakistan is already in process of getting something more urgently in need of something else at the moment from Chinese in defence sector I don’t want to speculate but whatever been send back to China with some input and updates requirements from Pakistan usually come back 
thank you


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## MastanKhan

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The "core engine" part is the same for turbo-shaft, turbo-prop and turbo-fan engines! The most important part is to produce single crystal blades from the "powdered" Ni, W etc. to withstand 2,000C+ temp under high pressure conditions for thousands of hours with a very high (six sigma) part-to-part reliability and very low performance degradation conditions. _Elhamdulillah_ TEI has been successfully producing both the raw materials ["powdered" Ni, W etc.] and single crystal blades since 2017! Turbo-props and turbo-shafts are already technology-wise done and are in serial productions. As for Turbo-fans it'll take time but all the building blocks are there!!! Engineering R&D is all about linear progression, not quantum leaps. For a reason the West has put so much sanctions on Turkey, but they're late!!! The closest reminiscence of this Turkish endeavor is the Pak nuclear program.....



Hi,

I agree with what you are saying---. A general aircraft engine or a helicopter engine fall under that category and I am pretty sure that that Turkey would be successful in producing the much needed power plant.

On your last comment---it is a make of break moment for Turkey.

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## airmarshal

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The "core engine" part is the same for turbo-shaft, turbo-prop and turbo-fan engines! The most important part is to produce single crystal blades from the "powdered" Ni, W etc. to withstand 2,000C+ temp under high pressure conditions for thousands of hours with a very high (six sigma) part-to-part reliability and very low performance degradation conditions. _Elhamdulillah_ TEI has been successfully producing both the raw materials ["powdered" Ni, W etc.] and single crystal blades since 2017! Turbo-props and turbo-shafts are already technology-wise done and are in serial productions. As for Turbo-fans it'll take time but all the building blocks are there!!! Engineering R&D is all about linear progression, not quantum leaps. For a reason the West has put so much sanctions on Turkey, but they're late!!! The closest reminiscence of this Turkish endeavor is the Pak nuclear program.....



This is such a good news! It shows how well Turkey has been doing in local defence production.

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## araz

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> _With the realization of this Turboshaft engine technology we've graduated to the champion's league (Britain, Germany, France etc.) in this sector - Prof. Dr. Faruk Aksit, TEI Chief_
> 
> We consider it a done deal! After having a PhD from the Reseller Polytechnic Institute and working at GE's turbo-engine group for 10+years, Dr Faruk Aksit (TEI chief) won't let it go if he's not 110% sure of the certification!!! By the by, Turkey has built a state-of-the-art Test Environment to test the jet engines of all sorts....
> 
> TEI has investments and business deals with GE. Almost all GE turbo-engines have a noticeable number of movable parts produced by TEI. If the Turkish Defense industry hasn't had this much of intellectual honesty of adhering to their promises they couldn't have destroyed the top-notch Russian systems so proficiently, and nor the West would have applied so much of sanction on them....
> 
> *This _Fakir_ has decades of engineering R&D experience working in humble projects. I personally know how tough our bosses are regarding meeting the performance, functionality, reliability etc. specs for they don't want to be fooled at the point of no return


That was the whole point. Turkey may nearly be there but is certainly not there yet. It may be 2-5 years and if there are niggles perhaps more. Company execs give a lot of statements regarding their products. The proof of the pudding is in actual useage and complying with international regulations. EU certification is not going to come easily as a lot of hurdles maybe created. You must remember this is a hotly contested market and a muslim state entering this sphere/market would be discouraged in any way shape and form for obvious reasons. You have already had a taste of that in the attempts to join the EU.
I am a fan of Turkish developments but again advise you to temper your boasts till such time that the certification is there and the engine has won all the trials it is put through. I would be the first one to congratulate you but till then just hold-on to your horses.
A

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## eagleeye

The civil version of gökbey will have the eu certification . it will take time . military version of gökbey and atak do not need it . therefore tai wil start to produce 3 gökbey heli this year for jandarma. and they will also begin this year with the integration of ts1400 engine on atak helikopter. ts1400 engine and LHTEC-CTS800 engine have the same size i am sure they don't need more than 1 year for integration and tests

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## aziqbal

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The 10-ton ATAK-2 is named as T-929!!! It's Apachee class combat chopper. Hopefully, Pak goes for it....



is this the official name ?

great news, I always say we wait for this helicopter even if its 2030 by the time its ready

T129 has been a great success no doubt T929 will be too

what is the Turkish Army order book for this helo? how many

would love to see this carrying 16 x UMTAS missiles

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## xbat

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Maybe China can sell Turkey engine for helicopter


if chine had a capable engine, he would won the tender mr genius

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## Successwill

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Maybe China can sell Turkey engine for helicopter



Can you show us the alternative(s) that China has in T129 category? Along with the specs if you dont mind.


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## Imran Khan

close and delete this thread its useless

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## araz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi sir if I may ask is there any possibility for a Russian engines to go with ATAK /2 or something to 10 ton heli in progress for the Turks as these days Turks /Russians are well closed to each others as usa recently put some more restrictions towards Turkish defence firms
> if possible to answer
> thank you


The simple answer is No. The Turks need to operationalize the T129 with their indegenous engine and will do so sooner or later. Allah sends adversity the way of the muslim so they strive a little bit harder and achieve their aims eventually. For the Turks this hasbeen a gift for them from Allah A'zza Wa Jal. They will come out of it much stronger with a better product and break the shackles that have bound them.
A

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## imadul

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> there is a day and night difference between manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine and an attack helicopter engine.
> 
> Fighter aircraft engines are a totally different breed of machines like no other---or maybe like the race car engines---a race car engine that is constantly using maximum rpms and then suddenly goes down in rpm's and then suddenly back to full throttle again---up and won up and down---.
> 
> The attack helicopter engine does to go those rigors of flight and change in engine rpm's---.
> 
> The engines that operate at steadier rpm's are comparatively easy to manufacture as compared to those whose operationals ranges are between mid range to 110% of power.
> 
> So---possibly---the Turks could come with with a viable helicopter engine---.
> 
> But the deal of a turkish helicopter was a bad deal right from the gitgo---.
> 
> sanctions were obvious right from day one---.
> 
> This deal was another sabotage on the integrity of pakistani defences----.
> 
> This deal was planned by saboteurs of pakistan---make a deal to please the pakistani public---but defence weapons will never be delivered or be delayed because of known sanctions---stupid pakistanis will never know about it---and pakistan would be hurt in its defences.


About Pakistan choices....
Cobra refurbishment was stopped by US.
Zulus were sanctioned as expected. 
Z-10s are not a matured and tested platform.
T-129 were a good choice but Pak should be aware that it has Honeywell engine components and export to 3rd party will come under US sanctions. 
All one can say Pakistani planners are short sighted and cant get any favors even when delivering massively to Trump in Afganistan.

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## MastanKhan

imadul said:


> About Pakistan choices....
> Cobra refurbishment was stopped by US.
> Zulus were sanctioned as expected.
> Z-10s are not a matured and tested platform.
> T-129 were a good choice but Pak should be aware that it has Honeywell engine components and export to 3rd party will come under US sanctions.
> All one can say Pakistani planners are short sighted and cant get any favors even when delivering massively to Trump in Afganistan.



Hi,

Shahbaz Sharif stated one time---" don't dig out the deals with Turkey---".

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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> The simple answer is No. The Turks need to operationalize the T129 with their indegenous engine and will do so sooner or later. Allah sends adversity the way of the muslim so they strive a little bit harder and achieve their aims eventually. For the Turks this hasbeen a gift for them from Allah A'zza Wa Jal. They will come out of it much stronger with a better product and break the shackles that have bound them.
> A


Hi thanks for your reply hopefully they will overcome this problem ASAP 
thank you


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## ACE OF HEARTS

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Shahbaz Sharif stated one time---" don't dig out the deals with Turkey---".


He stated BOTH CHINA and TURKEY

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## imadul

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Shahbaz Sharif stated one time---" don't dig out the deals with Turkey---".


LoL.....Wont track Sharifs quotes

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## HAIDER

Pakistan desperately need helicopter for Pak-Afghan border area security. Either go for drone or stop gap attack helicopter. T129 is delayed project ...doubt we ll see anytime soon...

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Pakistan obviously prefers T-129 over WZ-10 because religion however it will still take some years before engine is ready.


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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Shahbaz Sharif stated one time---" don't dig out the deals with Turkey---".


Deal was done by LNG Abbasi

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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> Deal was done by LNG Abbasi



Regardless of who did the deal, it was on the request from Pakistani army.


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## TNT

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Pakistan obviously prefers T-129 over WZ-10 because religion however it will still take some years before engine is ready.



U must be a total idiot to think religion has anything to do with a helicopter deal. After all Pakistan buys from china, russia and US, none of them muslim. 
Who unbanned this austin powers troll? Plz ban him again, he will crap in every thread.


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## araz

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Pakistan obviously prefers T-129 over WZ-10 because religion however it will still take some years before engine is ready.


*Of course religion can make marked improvements to the T129's hot and high performance!!!!*. When will you guys learn to accept that the the Z10 lost out to a helo that performed better in all the parameters it was set. Trials are on going with the Z10 ME and the results will determine what happens. The engine issue is a big one but to be honest kept the Z 10 from being competitive as well.
A

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## SgtGungHo

Even Chinese have a problem with their turboshaft engine. They know the engine is underpowered (AND unreliable, but they will never admit that) and have recently announced an updated engine for WZ-10.

Better not touch any unproven turboshaft engine.


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## araz

SgtGungHo said:


> Even Chinese have a problem with their turboshaft engine. They know the engine is underpowered (AND unreliable, but they will never admit that) and have recently announced an updated engine for WZ-10.
> 
> Better not touch any unproven turboshaft engine.


You do realize that rules out both Helos for us. At some stage we will have to take that plunge but we will test thoroughly before inducting.
A

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## Ali_Baba

Pakistan prefers the T129 because of the very high standards of durability it has been built to and therefore the longevity and lifespan it offers to the PA, in additon to the high technology it offers aswell. T129 has been built on a mature platform and to NATO standards. If you look at the usage of the current fleet of AH-1F/S.s etc, you will see they have really taken a pounding in the last 20 years. I think PA are looking to have that same capability in their next attack helicopter.

Can the WZ-10 offer the same airframe lifespan, durability, and low maintenance costs and longevitiy? We don't know, of course. It may do, or not. You can be sure, that the armed forces of Pakistan have a view and take their decisions based on the practicalities.

We are inducing JF17s with airframes that have a lifespan of 4,000 hours, whereas Boeing are now making F15X's with an airframe lifespan of 20,0000 ... There has to be a different in the durability design that allows you to achieve that \and that is reflects in total ownership and per hour operating costs !!!

I do think at some point we may see WZ-10's in PA, to have interopertability with Chinese forces, but most likely after the T-129s have been inducted and the WZ-10 has had some time to mature.

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## Path-Finder

AKŞİT DOMESTIC TURBOSHAFT ENGINE COMPARED TS-1400 WITH ITS IMPORTED EQUIVALENT !! TUSAŞ Engine Industry TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii A.Ş. (TEI) General Manager Mahmut Faruk Akşit compared Gökbey's engine TS-1400 with a rival imported equivalent engine in a program he attended. Akşit explained the aspects of the TS-1400 that are left behind and superior to the equivalent engine as follows: The following is the following: Since we have difficulties in material alloy supply and we have made a decision not to use materials produced from a single source that will be subject to restriction Since we use materials that can be produced, the materials we use are not the most superior materials in the industry; materials of a lower class; We did it deliberately so that we would not have trouble in the supply of two.

As such, our engine will be 20-30 kilos heavier than its competitor, as there are materials that can carry less load and carry less load at higher temperatures. We know that. This is not such a bad thing. This is how we tackle this: our engine has been designed to produce superior power than the imported engine currently used in all categories.

Let me give an example: Continuous flight power is 1411 horsepower of our engine, 1292 horsepower of the current rival engine. We are constantly generating 120 horsepower more power. At the moment of take-off - which is the main category of the engine, the take-off power of the rival engine is 1373, our engine is 1470 horsepower; It takes off with about 100 horsepower more power.

There is also an emergency take-off, they call it something, in case of any malfunction, especially if the helicopter has gone on a dangerous mission, the personnel must be removed from there, if one of the engines is hit and does not work, a single engine can be used to discharge the fuel a little, throw the ammunition and escape with the personnel.

there is an overstrain mode; they call it starting with a single engine. Our TS-1400 engine generates more than 1700 horsepower when starting with a single engine. The rival engine produces 1637 horsepower. So in all these power categories, we can say that our engine really produces superior power than the rival engine.
=================================================================================================

Not a bad strategy instead of going ott with materials which are difficult to obtain by using standard grade material to get things rolling and then the trade off is that it maybe 20-30KG heavier than the rival(Honewell Engine?) but the power out is higher.

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## Path-Finder

Honeywell is shelved and TS1400 will be the motor that will be fitted in Pakistan's order.

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## jupiter2007

Ali_Baba said:


> Pakistan prefers the T129 because of the very high standards of durability it has been built to and therefore the longevity and lifespan it offers to the PA, in additon to the high technology it offers aswell. T129 has been built on a mature platform and to NATO standards. If you look at the usage of the current fleet of AH-1F/S.s etc, you will see they have really taken a pounding in the last 20 years. I think PA are looking to have that same capability in their next attack helicopter.
> 
> Can the WZ-10 offer the same airframe lifespan, durability, and low maintenance costs and longevitiy? We don't know, of course. It may do, or not. You can be sure, that the armed forces of Pakistan have a view and take their decisions based on the practicalities.
> 
> We are inducing JF17s with airframes that have a lifespan of 4,000 hours, whereas Boeing are now making F15X's with an airframe lifespan of 20,0000 ... There has to be a different in the durability design that allows you to achieve that \and that is reflects in total ownership and per hour operating costs !!!
> 
> I do think at some point we may see WZ-10's in PA, to have interopertability with Chinese forces, but most likely after the T-129s have been inducted and the WZ-10 has had some time to mature.



Chinese stuff is not as great as western stuff. Even their ship require more maintenance compare to western.


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## Zarvan

aziqbal said:


> is this the official name ?
> 
> great news, I always say we wait for this helicopter even if its 2030 by the time its ready
> 
> T129 has been a great success no doubt T929 will be too
> 
> what is the Turkish Army order book for this helo? how many
> 
> would love to see this carrying 16 x UMTAS missiles


We simply can't afford to wait. We need 60 to 80 attack helicopters now. Not after 9 to 12 years.

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> Honeywell is shelved and TS1400 will be the motor that will be fitted in Pakistan's order.


Gonna take at least 2 yrs

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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Gonna take at least 2 yrs


and NO threat of sanction from the yanks! Well your military certification is not like civil certification which needs far more stricter safety protocols to be adhered to and harsher scrutiny. Most military grade stuff has to pass the military standard and that is sufficient.

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## Path-Finder



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## Path-Finder

Things are going smooth, InShaAllah this will be on the T129.

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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> Things are going smooth, InShaAllah this will be on the T129.


Timeline


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## xbat

Polestar 2 said:


> Safran Helicopter Engines
> 
> 
> The world’s leading manufacturer of helicopter engines Safran Helicopter Engines is the world’s leading manufacturer of rotorcraft turbines and the only one dedicated exclusively to this market. Operating worldwide, it employs 5,900 people and has more than 2,500 customers in 155 countries, and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.safran-helicopter-engines.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China *
> 
> *10 October 2019, China Helicopter Exposition, Tianjin*
> Safran Helicopter Engines and Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) announce the issue of the Type Certificate for the WZ16 turboshaft from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Installed in the AVIC AC352 helicopter, the WZ16 is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities. Also known as the Ardiden 3C, the WZ16 has been jointly developed and built by Safran Helicopter Engines, with Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute (HAPRI), both parts of the AECC consortium. The Ardiden 3C was certified by EASA in April 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC" commented Bruno Bellanger, Safran Helicopter Engines EVP Programs. "It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service".
> 
> 
> Harbin Dongan Engine, the Type Certificate holder said, "The Type Certificate from CAAC is a further step towards the commercial success of the WZ16. It is thanks to the close cooperation of AECC, Harbin Dongan Engine, HAPRI and Safran Helicopter Engines, as well as to the strong support of CAAC. In the future, we will not only expand our engine portfolio but work hand-in-hand with Safran Helicopter Engines, to provide continuous airworthiness and after-sales service of the WZ16, ensuring smooth operation and world-class after-sales service for our clients. Thus, they can buy it confidently and use it safely."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remy Bertrand - Safran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The WZ16/Ardiden 3C is a new-generation turboshaft in the 1,700-2,000 shp range. The Ardiden 3 family has completed over 10,000 hours of tests, confirming high levels of design maturity and competitive *operating and maintenance costs. It features a remarkably compact modular architecture, a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio and low cost-of-ownership. It also delivers at least 10 % better fuel consumption than engines operating in the same power range.
> 
> 
> The WZ16 flight test campaign started in December 2016 with the Avic AC352's maiden flight.


and not for military applications......


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

The CTS800 by far the best engine in its class, the TS1400, or its Chinese rival, won't come close to it anytime soon. Everyone in the industry knows how great both the FADEC system and the fuel consumption are. Flying at low altitude along the border with Pakistan is no different than being in a flying coffin. Leave job was bad


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Polestar 2 said:


> I will politely disagree with your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Safran Helicopter Engines
> 
> 
> The world’s leading manufacturer of helicopter engines Safran Helicopter Engines is the world’s leading manufacturer of rotorcraft turbines and the only one dedicated exclusively to this market. Operating worldwide, it employs 5,900 people and has more than 2,500 customers in 155 countries, and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.safran-helicopter-engines.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Ardidens are equipped with the latest-generation, dual-channel Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). The Ardiden family is divided into two groups: the Ardiden 1, which offers 1,400 shp with growth potential to 1,700 shp, and the Ardiden 3 (in development), covering 1,700 to 2,000 shp.
> 
> Ardiden engines are installed in the Druhv, LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and LUH (Light Utility Helicopter), all built by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, and in Russian Helicopters' Ka-62 and the AC352 from China's Avicopter




None of the helicopters you mentioned have been actively used in the hot conflict, a lot of engines, including Rolls Royce, can go up to these altitudes, do you have any idea what they can do without lubrication for 30 minutes when needed?

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## Polestar 2

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> None of the helicopters you mentioned have been actively used in the hot conflict, a lot of engines, including Rolls Royce, can go up to these altitudes, do you have any idea what they can do without lubrication for 30 minutes when needed?


Is doesn't mean the turboshaft are restricted to only these few platform. If new helo coming up and the enginw fit the bill ,requirement. It can be used.

But I do know these France/Chinese engine need to pass many stringent requirement in many condition and attitude and clock a lot of working hours without failed before cert by EASA and CAAC.


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## SgtGungHo

mingle said:


> Gonna take at least 2 yrs



Not even 2 years. Officials are expecting the engine to be mass-manufactured in 2024. And they say TS1400 is designed for utility helicopter, not attack helicopter and additional modification has to be made to the engine for Tai/AgustaWestland ATAK.

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## xbat

SgtGungHo said:


> Not even 2 years. Officials are expecting the engine to be mass-manufactured in 2024. And they say TS1400 is designed for utility helicopter, not attack helicopter and additional modification has to be made to the engine for Tai/AgustaWestland ATAK.


and Turks are not smart enough to conduct all necessary works simultaneously , yeah! only mr SgtGungHo can think about it, bear in mind there is a turbojet variant of that engine too, you will see in the next coming moths.


Polestar 2 said:


> May I know what speciality or different a military helicopter turboshaft vs a civilian turboshaft?
> 
> If you bother to goggle, WZ designation for Chinese turboshaft are all designated for military purposes. There is something call dual use. There is reason why this turboshaft are given the designation "WZ-16". This turboshaft is same class as LHTEC-T800. Certify by EASA which I think nobody can doubts it quality and reliability.
> 
> Not any turboshaft can passed EASA requirement as they need to be highly robust, durable and little noise emission. In fact, very few out of advance western countries can make it.
> 
> It a project onwership between France and China.


it is only politic, french government doesnt give permission for military applications

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## DrWatson775

This is from 2014 



DrWatson775 said:


> I would like to see T129 with PA. However this is unlikely as the powerplant (LHTEC CTS800) is US/UK export. It would be too much of a hassle (redesign/testing etc) to fit the chinese WZ9 turboshaft into the T129. Better go for CAIC WZ10 when able with modification per PA requirements.


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## Path-Finder



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## Raja Porus

Path-Finder said:


>


 I think Pakistan was exceptionally pleased by Atak's performance as it allowed so much time to turkey for the engines.
But if I am not wrong, she didn't tell which engine will be in those helicopters?


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## Path-Finder

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I think Pakistan was exceptionally pleased by Atak's performance as it allowed so much time to turkey for the engines.
> But if I am not wrong, she didn't tell which engine will be in those helicopters?


it wont be the honeywell engine as they are not going to be released.

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## Raja Porus

Path-Finder said:


> it wont be the honeywell engine as they are not going to be released.


Yep, but I asked it as she was constantly saying that Pakistani lobby is busy so I wanted to ask for what reason?


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## Path-Finder

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Yep, but I asked it as she was constantly saying that Pakistani lobby is busy so I wanted to ask for what reason?


maybe attempts are being made to get the export clearance for the engines. But the writing on the wall has been that it will be denied. Even more so than before.

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## Salza

Path-Finder said:


>



she is not saying anything new but all depends upon two conditions :
1) US to allow their engines on Pakistan T129s - looks quite unlikely
2) Turkey workaround solution - their own engine which is again highly unlikely they can produce it in 1-2 years time. 

So there is no breakthrough for Pakistan T129 project as of now. So her claim of good news is not correct.

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## GriffinsRule

No news in this clip, just a waste of time watching it. All she is saying is we hope and pray the lobbying will work and we will get the helicopter.

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## khanasifm

Path-Finder said:


>



per her 6-8 heli delivery in 2021 either based on uS engine or local made

let’s see plus oak order now for atak or version2 as they delivery is delayed ,orig ally 6-8 were expected in 2019

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## SQ8

Unknown random person on 10min production youtube video - Pakistan getting US Helicopters
PDF qaum: Congratulations 🎊 AH-64E + Commanche confirmed!!

PDF TT & professionals with years of experience in industry/service/following industry news/analysis:
“We are making efforts to negotiate some minor components to be released “

PDF qaum: “Show proof in signed contract, airline tickets, hotel bills and selfies with each serial number or you know nothing!!”

eh @fatman17 @Dazzler @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @araz @PanzerKiel @Bratva @Irfan Baloch

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> per her 6-8 heli delivery in 2021 either based on uS engine or local made
> 
> let’s see plus oak order now for atak or version2 as they delivery is delayed ,orig ally 6-8 were expected in 2019


Maybe we got engine authorization?


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## Path-Finder

LOCAL ENGINE COMING TO ATTACKS! TURKEY GIANTS LEAGUE COMES to! CLEAR ANSWER TO PAKISTAN EMBARGO

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## Deino

Path-Finder said:


> LOCAL ENGINE COMING TO ATTACKS! TURKEY GIANTS LEAGUE COMES to! CLEAR ANSWER TO PAKISTAN EMBARGO




Oh come on ... since years we hear from them they will ... and nothing happens. They have just a prototype of their first own helicopter engine running and you want to make us believe they could deliver soon!   

This will take years of testing, certificating and production for their own fleet and only then - mated with IF nothing worse happens - it could be delivered to Pakistan. So do us a favour and stop posting BS claims from Turkish fan-boys.

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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> Oh come on ... since years we hear from them they will ... and nothing happens. They have just a prototype of their first own helicopter engine running and you want to make us believe they could deliver soon!
> 
> This will take years of testing, certificating and production for their own fleet and only then - mated with IF nothing worse happens - it could be delivered to Pakistan. So do us a favour and stop posting BS claims from Turkish fan-boys.


Just keeping things....moist!


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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> LOCAL ENGINE COMING TO ATTACKS! TURKEY GIANTS LEAGUE COMES to! CLEAR ANSWER TO PAKISTAN EMBARGO


Atleast an Year more after certification of engines


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## araz

mingle said:


> Atleast an Year more after certification of engines


I think even 2024 will be excellent progress if they can produce enough engines. I can bet you a cup of tea they will at best be testing the ATAK in 2026-8 with a local engine. They simply wont be able to produce enough so quickly.
A

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## Zarvan




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## Stealth

Zarvan said:


>



Believe me, she is just another youtuber .... an intentionally (unnecessarily) keench rahe hey explanation just for the sake of earning from youtube. She doesn't know anything regarding this... military terms ye hoti hey flana hoti hey and so on....

In short... Pakistan was a bit furious with turkish because they misguided Pakistani decision-makers on this helicopter let's be fair. Initially, the impression was, there wouldn't be any issue btw US/TUR and their deal of third-party components but with the passage of time, the Turkish side failed to convince us. Once the reality of US/Turkish revealed and the deal took a longer than expected period, there is a hell of ambiguity and vagueness at this moment. Realistically, Pakistan lost all the interest and trust regarding this ATAK. I can't see any practicality in this for the next 1.5 years... Since Biden came into power, Pakistan probably initiates the talks on the existing 2015 deal of vipers.... wait and watch...

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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> Believe me, she is just another youtuber .... an intentionally (unnecessarily) keench rahe hey explanation just for the sake of earning from youtube. She doesn't know anything regarding this... military terms ye hoti hey flana hoti hey and so on....
> 
> In short... Pakistan was a bit furious with turkish because they misguided Pakistani decision-makers on this helicopter let's be fair. Initially, Pakistan was convinced (and by whom? of course by Turkis side) that there was no issue btw US/TUR and their deal of third party components but with the passage of time, the decision-makers surprised and disappointed the way the Turkish side failed to convince us once the reality of US/Turkish revealed. There is now a lot of ambiguity and vagueness. Realistically, Pakistan lost all interest and trust regarding this ATAK. I can't see any practicality in the ATAK deal btw Turkey and Pakistan for the next 1.5 years at least. Let see...
> 
> Pakistan is now back to square one. Since Biden came into power, Pakistan probably initiates the talk on our existing deal of vipers..... silently.... wait and watch...


How many youtubers you have seen who have access to all kinds of military bases. She is going to SSG cant and Air Bases. Also PAF won't invite just a youtuber for launching of its last batch of dual seater jets. I initially thought she was some youtuber. But after carefully going through her videos she has way more access then any normal youtuber has.


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## Stealth

Zarvan said:


> How many youtubers you have seen who have access to all kinds of military bases. She is going to SSG cant and Air Bases. Also PAF won't invite just a youtuber for launching of its last batch of dual seater jets. I initially thought she was some youtuber. But after carefully going through her videos she has way more access then any normal youtuber has.



Lol my friends often visit PAF bases and even my non-mil friends twice visited SSG HQ in Cherat in the past couple pf months. One of my friends visited Bholari Air Base and his pictures (which he has taken of F16 BLK52) gone viral few days ago... 

On a lighter note, thori boti salaam duwa ho and if youre in the media or have some links with any private channel aap ki jugaar lag jati hey so the ceremony of dual seater pe jana koi kamaal nahe hey lol

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## jupiter2007

Zarvan said:


> How many youtubers you have seen who have access to all kinds of military bases. She is going to SSG cant and Air Bases. Also PAF won't invite just a youtuber for launching of its last batch of dual seater jets. I initially thought she was some youtuber. But after carefully going through her videos she has way more access then any normal youtuber has.



She started her career with some news channel (maybe ARY) and recently started her YouTube channel. Even though she has access to military bases or events, She is not an expert in military hardware and made some simple mistakes in her videos. I have encouraged her to keep making videos and not worry about negative comments. Indian haramkhors were putting negative comments on her videos.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Stealth said:


> Believe me, she is just another youtuber .... an intentionally (unnecessarily) keench rahe hey explanation just for the sake of earning from youtube. She doesn't know anything regarding this... military terms ye hoti hey flana hoti hey and so on....
> 
> In short... Pakistan was a bit furious with turkish because they misguided Pakistani decision-makers on this helicopter let's be fair. Initially, the impression was, there could be no issue btw US/TUR and their deal of third-party components but with the passage of time, the Turkish side failed to convince us. Once the reality of US/Turkish revealed and the deal took a longer than expected period, there is a hell of ambiguity and vagueness at this moment. Realistically, Pakistan lost all the interest and trust regarding this ATAK. I can't see any practicality in this for the next 1.5 years... Since Biden came into power, Pakistan probably initiates the talks on the existing 2015 deal of vipers.... wait and watch...


I don't think this is the case.

The Turks offered the T129s with a Turkish Gov't credit facility. The way it worked was that the Turkish gov't paid for the production, and we'd pay for the helicopters when we take delivery.

Obviously, delivery didn't happen, so we didn't pay. Basically, it was a no-risk deal for the PA, which is a huge reason why we signed the deal. The PA has no reason to be angry, and it isn't.

Credit for a borderline pariah on FATF isn't easy to come by, so the PA will keep the Turks as an option. But if we're a borderline pariah, then we're approaching this all wrong @denel

It's starting to dawn on the PA (and PN) that buying attack and special mission helicopters off-the-shelf isn't an option. Be it a gunship or an anti-sub/ship chopper, we're talking about valuable offensive systems, and only two countries are willing to talk to us about them: China and Turkey.

If we want a 'perfect match,' we'll need to develop our own. There's no excuse why we didn't work on a Dhruv/LCH-type of project. With our own asset (which we can run through multiple variants for 30-40 years), we can build a large close air support (CAS) and air mobility force.

To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.

Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).

Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).

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## Stealth

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think this is the case.
> 
> The Turks offered the T129s with a Turkish Gov't credit facility. The way it worked was that the Turkish gov't paid for the production, and we'd pay for the helicopters when we take delivery.
> 
> Obviously, delivery didn't happen, so we didn't pay. Basically, it was a no-risk deal for the PA, which is a huge reason why we signed the deal. The PA has no reason to be angry, and it isn't.
> 
> Credit for a borderline pariah on FATF isn't easy to come by, so the PA will keep the Turks as an option. But if we're a borderline pariah, then we're approaching this all wrong @denel
> 
> It's starting to dawn on the PA (and PN) that buying attack and special mission helicopters off-the-shelf isn't an option. Be it a gunship or an anti-sub/ship chopper, we're talking about valuable offensive systems, and only two countries are willing to talk to us about them: China and Turkey.
> 
> If we want a 'perfect match,' we'll need to develop our own. There's no excuse why we didn't work on a Dhruv/LCH-type of project. With our own asset (which we can run through multiple variants for 30-40 years), we can build a large close air support (CAS) and air mobility force.
> 
> To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.
> 
> Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).
> 
> Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).
> 
> View attachment 716827



Maybe you're right but I have a very different perspective based on my own info.

PS: Please ping me (check your email I have sent you through your site) need to talk about something.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Stealth said:


> Maybe you're right but I have a very different perspective based on my own info.
> 
> PS: Please ping me (check your email I have sent you through your site) need to talk about something.


Can you email me at bilal@quwa.org?


----------



## Dreamer.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.
> 
> Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).
> 
> Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).


That's easier said than done. There are many complication with this approach aswell.

But I agree with the rest. Pakistan has shown near criminal negligence regarding helicopter development in the past for which we are paying now. We should have started at least 30-35 years ago. Even now we should consider building a local industry but we have to do JV's and start with something light/medium, not heavy. Way to do it would be to comission a requirement for a new utility helicopter and invite bids leading to a JV. Should cover civilian requirement also to increase numbers.

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## spectregunship

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think this is the case.
> 
> The Turks offered the T129s with a Turkish Gov't credit facility. The way it worked was that the Turkish gov't paid for the production, and we'd pay for the helicopters when we take delivery.
> 
> Obviously, delivery didn't happen, so we didn't pay. Basically, it was a no-risk deal for the PA, which is a huge reason why we signed the deal. The PA has no reason to be angry, and it isn't.
> 
> Credit for a borderline pariah on FATF isn't easy to come by, so the PA will keep the Turks as an option. But if we're a borderline pariah, then we're approaching this all wrong @denel
> 
> It's starting to dawn on the PA (and PN) that buying attack and special mission helicopters off-the-shelf isn't an option. Be it a gunship or an anti-sub/ship chopper, we're talking about valuable offensive systems, and only two countries are willing to talk to us about them: China and Turkey.
> 
> If we want a 'perfect match,' we'll need to develop our own. There's no excuse why we didn't work on a Dhruv/LCH-type of project. With our own asset (which we can run through multiple variants for 30-40 years), we can build a large close air support (CAS) and air mobility force.
> 
> To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.
> 
> Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).
> 
> Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).
> 
> View attachment 716827


As much I am a fan of your articles and posts, but I'd like to differ here. No doubt, you have given the optimum solution to the requirement, but it is a far cry from where we are standing. PAC had a wherewithal to undertake an aircraft manufacturing project but for a helo it may not be that simple. Besides, as you already mentioned and highlighted the issue of visionary leadership, I doubt anybody will be worried on this account let alone envision such a project. To sum up, its always going to be off the shelf procurement and I have no doubt for anything to change at least for the next 4 to 5 years.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

spectregunship said:


> As much I am a fan of your articles and posts, but I'd like to differ here. No doubt, you have given the optimum solution to the requirement, but it is a far cry from where we are standing. PAC had a wherewithal to undertake an aircraft manufacturing project but for a helo it may not be that simple. Besides, as you already mentioned and highlighted the issue of visionary leadership, I doubt anybody will be worried on this account let alone envision such a project. To sum up, its always going to be off the shelf procurement and I have no doubt for anything to change at least for the next 4 to 5 years.


I agree, but I'd still wager a locally produced solution. It might not be a factor today, but if 'circumstances' (like what we went through with the US, or not finding the right fit in China) keep up, they may pivot. 

It may not be as thorough as a locally designed solution, but agreeing to something like the T625 and T629 with a relatively deep industrial footprint (e.g., depot-level MRO, parts manufacturing, some sub-assemblies work and final assembly) is a possibility.

In fact, the PAA had explored this very possibility back in the mid-to-late 1980s with the AH-1 and UH-1. Talks had gotten serious, but political issues with the US (pre-Pressler) scuttled the program.

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## xbat

T629 is taking shape (in the middle) , MMW Radar place can be seen on the top of rotor, first flight a little bit postponed.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362005850605428740
Deliveries for Turkish Army

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree, but I'd still wager a locally produced solution. It might not be a factor today, but if 'circumstances' (like what we went through with the US, or not finding the right fit in China) keep up, they may pivot.
> 
> It may not be as thorough as a locally designed solution, but agreeing to something like the T625 and T629 with a relatively deep industrial footprint (e.g., depot-level MRO, parts manufacturing, some sub-assemblies work and final assembly) is a possibility.
> 
> In fact, the PAA had explored this very possibility back in the mid-to-late 1980s with the AH-1 and UH-1. Talks had gotten serious, but political issues with the US (pre-Pressler) scuttled the program.




TAI has been manufacturing and selling parts for AW / Leonardo for years, such as bodywork etc. Why not try to get offsets from them, after all, TAI's orders are limited.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> TAI has been manufacturing and selling parts for AW / Leonardo for years, such as bodywork etc. Why not try to get offsets from them, after all, TAI's orders are limited.


If funds permit, the PAA may look to order several dozen transport helicopters (some to replace old aircraft, others for net-new capability). So, if Leonardo wins with its AW139M + AW149 pitch, Pakistan may ask for offsets from them. However, surplus S-70s have generally been the favoured option.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If funds permit, the PAA may look to order several dozen transport helicopters (some to replace old aircraft, others for net-new capability). So, if Leonardo wins with its AW139M + AW149 pitch, Pakistan may ask for offsets from them. However, surplus S-70s have generally been the favoured option.


We should forget about S-70s. If there is an itch for US transport helos, it should only be for Chinooks.

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## Reichmarshal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If funds permit, the PAA may look to order several dozen transport helicopters (some to replace old aircraft, others for net-new capability). So, if Leonardo wins with its AW139M + AW149 pitch, Pakistan may ask for offsets from them. However, surplus S-70s have generally been the favoured option.



no S 70 for PA. If at all then we will see Z 20 in PA colors which is a Chinese copy of the dozen or so helis sent to China by Sikorsky in the early 90s before the deal fell through


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## Mohsin A

Pakistan still interested in T129 acquisition


Pakistan's long-running attempt to acquire Turkish Aerospace T129 attack helicopters may finally be nearing a conclusion. Speaking at Defence IQ's virtual International Military Helicopter 2021 conference on 24 February, an unnamed Pakistani army official said that the Turkish-built type was...




www.flightglobal.com





*Pakistan still interested in T129 acquisition*

Pakistan’s long-running attempt to acquire Turkish Aerospace T129 attack helicopters may finally be nearing a conclusion.

Speaking at Defence IQ’s virtual International Military Helicopter 2021 conference today, an unnamed Pakistani army official said that the Turkish-built type was “still very much under consideration”.





Source: Turkish Aerospace

Islamabad initially ordered 30 examples in 2018
Islamabad had in 2018 ordered 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion, but the sale foundered on export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the type.


“The contract is a bit delayed because of certain third-party approvals,” says the army official. “But the OEM is hopeful of getting over the political hurdles and providing that third-party certification.

“We are still looking forward to accomplishing the contract with the Turkish government.”

Pakistan intends to replace its fleet of 48 elderly Bell AH-1Fs with the new platform. It had previously struck a deal under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process to purchase 12 Bell AH-1Zs but that deal was also put on hold due to US political concerns.

At the same conference last year it was suggested that Pakistan would consider Chinese alternatives if the T129 order could not be finalised.

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## Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

Mohsin A said:


> Pakistan still interested in T129 acquisition
> 
> 
> Pakistan's long-running attempt to acquire Turkish Aerospace T129 attack helicopters may finally be nearing a conclusion. Speaking at Defence IQ's virtual International Military Helicopter 2021 conference on 24 February, an unnamed Pakistani army official said that the Turkish-built type was...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.flightglobal.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan still interested in T129 acquisition*
> 
> Pakistan’s long-running attempt to acquire Turkish Aerospace T129 attack helicopters may finally be nearing a conclusion.
> 
> Speaking at Defence IQ’s virtual International Military Helicopter 2021 conference today, an unnamed Pakistani army official said that the Turkish-built type was “still very much under consideration”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Turkish Aerospace
> 
> Islamabad initially ordered 30 examples in 2018
> Islamabad had in 2018 ordered 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion, but the sale foundered on export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the type.
> 
> 
> “The contract is a bit delayed because of certain third-party approvals,” says the army official. “But the OEM is hopeful of getting over the political hurdles and providing that third-party certification.
> 
> “We are still looking forward to accomplishing the contract with the Turkish government.”
> 
> Pakistan intends to replace its fleet of 48 elderly Bell AH-1Fs with the new platform. It had previously struck a deal under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process to purchase 12 Bell AH-1Zs but that deal was also put on hold due to US political concerns.
> 
> At the same conference last year it was suggested that Pakistan would consider Chinese alternatives if the T129 order could not be finalised.



Still interested? I thougt this was a done deal?


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## Bossman

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq said:


> Still interested? I thougt this was a done deal?


It’s not about deal done but about deal cancellation.

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## HAIDER

*The upgraded ATAK helicopter is in line to be delivered to Pakistan – provided Turkey develops a locally-made engine, or the U.S. allows the export of the CTS800-4A engine. Turkey was supposed to design a new engine for Pakistan’s 30 aircraft this year. The latest upgrade could make Islamabad want to wait a little longer to get the helicopters.*

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## Khanate

HAIDER said:


> *The upgraded ATAK helicopter is in line to be delivered to Pakistan – provided Turkey develops a locally-made engine, or the U.S. allows the export of the CTS800-4A engine.*




This is a big if either way.


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## Cool_Soldier

With new US gov, Turkey might see a permit to export this engine to third party and that would pave the way of these deliveries to Pakistan.


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## araz

Cool_Soldier said:


> With new US gov, Turkey might see a permit to export this engine to third party and that would pave the way of these deliveries to Pakistan.


I dont think so. That licence is unlikely to be issued and the US will do everything in its power to kill any competition to its product. Turkey will have to come up with a local engine which is as good as the US one or get engines from alternate source.
A


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## TheDarkKnight

araz said:


> I dont think so. That licence is unlikely to be issued and the US will do everything in its power to kill any competition to its product. Turkey will have to come up with a local engine which is as good as the US one or get engines from alternate source.
> A


And once an alternate is available, US will simply lift the restrictions

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## Imran Khan

TheDarkKnight said:


> And once an alternate is available, US will simply lift the restrictions


same like JDAM and AIM-120

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## Cool_Soldier

sooner or later -129 will see its way to PAA.

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## Kingslayerr

Cool_Soldier said:


> sooner or later -129 will see its way to PAA.


There's no sooner in this deal, its all later and later. Still i support T-129 over z10s anyday.

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## xbat

sad news, US refused to sell engines and probably PAK would go for chinese Heli. says Mr. Kalın, spokesperson of Erdogan

i think the last hope for T129 is TEI engine, if PAK would accept it before certification then PAK may get them early

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1368813148271226884


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## Deino

And so you can simply connect those two post:



xbat said:


> sad news, US refused to sell engines and probably PAK would go for chinese Heli. says Mr. Kalın, spokesperson of Erdogan
> 
> i think the last hope for T129 is TEI engine, if PAK would accept it before certification then PAK may get them early
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1368813148271226884



but this leads to: 



Kingslayerr said:


> There's no sooner in this deal, its all later and later.


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## Kingslayerr

xbat said:


> sad news, US refused to sell engines and probably PAK would go for chinese Heli. says Mr. Kalın, spokesperson of Erdogan
> 
> i think the last hope for T129 is TEI engine, if PAK would accept it before certification then PAK may get them early
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1368813148271226884


IMO PA would've known this for quite a while before this news is made public. And still if pakistan wants to stick with T129 then there must be a reason.

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## Salza

and here goes the credibility of that female journalist  @Zarvan

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## mingle

Salza said:


> and here goes the credibility of that female journalist  @Zarvan


Z10ME along PAA should look another Russian type like Mi28 or Ka52 cheap reliable and rugged battle proven wait meantime for Turkish domestic engine will take 2 yrs Like Navy PA and PAF should start looking replacement for US systems


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## siegecrossbow

If Trump wouldn’t sell the chances of Biden selling is even lower. Democrats are super uptight about who they sell to. They are even cutting off arms to Saudi Arabia.

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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> Z10ME along PAA should look another Russian type like Mi28 or Ka52 cheap reliable and rugged battle proven wait meantime for Turkish domestic engine will take 2 yrs Like Navy PA and PAF should start looking replacement for US systems



If the Turks think they can have the engine ready in 2 years, the PA should consider leasing 6-12 A-129 from Italy or T-129 from Turkey out of their stocks, for training and limited number of operations to get the force ready.

This will speed up induction when the Pakistani T-129s become available.

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## SQ8

There are levels of equipment that the United States would allow Pakistan to have - now that
More and Indians are in the states department and admin, this level of equipment is lower.

The best course of action is either Pakistan invests in expatriates who can go up the US system ladder, in lobbies and other folks - or it gives up on US equipment knowing that its military will have to end up with Chinese equipment with a hodgepodge of turkish and ancillary european tech thrown in with their integration headaches.

However, if the choice is the latter - it is important Pakistan makes it a point to publicly announce this divorce from America but keeping in mind that it will be expensive both in monetary and temporal terms. There is no aircraft that Pakistan can purchase to replace its Vipers other than the J-10,no helicopter besides the Z-10ME. That is it.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> If the Turks think they can have the engine ready in 2 years, the PA should consider leasing 6-12 A-129 from Italy or T-129 from Turkey out of their stocks, for training and limited number of operations to get the force ready.
> 
> This will speed up induction when the Pakistani T-129s become available.


Lease wont be issue by US if not then lease atleast 15

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## FuturePAF

SQ8 said:


> There are levels of equipment that the United States would allow Pakistan to have - now that
> More and Indians are in the states department and admin, this level of equipment is lower.
> 
> The best course of action is either Pakistan invests in expatriates who can go up the US system ladder, in lobbies and other folks - or it gives up on US equipment knowing that its military will have to end up with Chinese equipment with a hodgepodge of turkish and ancillary european tech thrown in with their integration headaches.
> 
> However, if the choice is the latter - it is important Pakistan makes it a point to publicly announce this divorce from America but keeping in mind that it will be expensive both in monetary and temporal terms. There is no aircraft that Pakistan can purchase to replace its Vipers other than the J-10,no helicopter besides the Z-10ME. That is it.



There is a new Cold War, and for better or worse, it’s not good to be totally in one camp or the other. Best to keep relations as good as they can be to keep options open. Supporting the Diaspora is a good move for a multitude of reasons. Even if Pakistan will have to go with Chinese systems, we need to retain the possibility of buying platforms from other nations with US or European components, and for that at least decent relations are a must.

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## iLION12345_1

mingle said:


> Z10ME along PAA should look another Russian type like Mi28 or Ka52 cheap reliable and rugged battle proven wait meantime for Turkish domestic engine will take 2 yrs Like Navy PA and PAF should start looking replacement for US systems


Yes yes, Russia will just sell us Mi-28 and KA-52. What?? They’re not cheap either. At all. Be realistic.

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## fatman17

Statement by Spokesperson, Turkish Presidential Office:-
“The #US prevented our sale of T129 ATAK helicopters to #Pakistan. The deal will most likely be taken over by #China & US will be the side to lose."

China is pitching the Z-10ME for the $1.5 Billion Pakistani deal. #Turkey https://t.co/c3VJ1cs8HS

GAME OVER

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> Statement by Spokesperson, Turkish Presidential Office:-
> “The #US prevented our sale of T129 ATAK helicopters to #Pakistan. The deal will most likely be taken over by #China & US will be the side to lose."
> 
> China is pitching the Z-10ME for the $1.5 Billion Pakistani deal. #Turkey https://t.co/c3VJ1cs8HS
> 
> GAME OVER
> View attachment 723100
> View attachment 723101


Close the thread

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## Riz

Mention the posters who still expecting PAF will get Block 70 near future

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## Polestar 2

I don't think attack helo now is a priority for PA. Unmanned attack drone are getting more sophisticated. They can loiter longer time and best of all suffer no casualty.

There is reason why PA bought a batch of CH-4B recently. Priority shall be for by tanks, submarine and new block 3 of JF-17.

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## White and Green with M/S

Polestar 2 said:


> I don't think attack helo now is a priority for PA. Unmanned attack drone are getting more sophisticated. They can loiter longer time and best of all suffer no casualty.
> 
> There is reason why PA bought a batch of CH-4B recently. Priority shall be for by tanks, submarine and new block 3 of JF-17.


brother, UCAVs can't be carry much of the payloads of Cobra and Apache, and the also have short ranged air to surface weapons

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## dilpakistani

i still don't get it why Turkey had to go for S-400 so badly... they have lost too much for it... F-35 program .... 
their export bids are halted TOT will be stopped ...

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## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Statement by Spokesperson, Turkish Presidential Office:-
> “The #US prevented our sale of T129 ATAK helicopters to #Pakistan. The deal will most likely be taken over by #China & US will be the side to lose."
> 
> China is pitching the Z-10ME for the $1.5 Billion Pakistani deal. #Turkey https://t.co/c3VJ1cs8HS
> 
> GAME OVER
> View attachment 723100
> View attachment 723101


Pakistan should test Russian and Chinese helicopters. MI 28 and KA 52 and Z 10 should be tested.

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should test Russian and Chinese helicopters. MI 28 and KA 52 and Z 10 should be tested.


Quick is MI35 along Mi28 Time to say US equipment a goodbye

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## FuturePAF

dilpakistani said:


> i still don't get it why Turkey had to go for S-400 so badly... they have lost too much for it... F-35 program ....
> their export bids are halted TOT will be stopped ...


The coup and the purging of their Air Force of Gulenists leading to a manpower shortage, I suspect


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## Raja Porus

More than 10 years we have wasted waiting for this bird to be delivered and be used in action.
What a shame that both Pakistani and Turkish lobbies couldn't counter the Indian lobby.
Also what about the Turkish indigenous engine?

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## Vapour

FuturePAF said:


> There is a new Cold War, and for better or worse, it’s not good to be totally in one camp or the other. Best to keep relations as good as they can be to keep options open. Supporting the Diaspora is a good move for a multitude of reasons. Even if Pakistan will have to go with Chinese systems, we need to retain the possibility of buying platforms from other nations with US or European components, and for that at least decent relations are a must.



Yes, very surprised the poster suggested to go public over it - what's the need when the shift in stance has already happened? I don't seem to recall India publicly announcing that they are going to massively shift arms procurements from Russia to the US.


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## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should test Russian and Chinese helicopters. MI 28 and KA 52 and Z 10 should be tested.


Z10 already tested and improvements conveyed to China in the shape of Z10ME

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## Raja Porus

fatman17 said:


> Z10 already tested and improvements conveyed to China in the shape of Z10ME


That means..

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## fatman17

Desert Fox 1 said:


> That means..


Very likely a batch of 12 or 24 to be ordered subject to $$$ availability. Of course PAA will modify with western suites.

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> There are levels of equipment that the United States would allow Pakistan to have - now that
> More and Indians are in the states department and admin, this level of equipment is lower.
> 
> The best course of action is either Pakistan invests in expatriates who can go up the US system ladder, in lobbies and other folks - or it gives up on US equipment knowing that its military will have to end up with Chinese equipment with a hodgepodge of turkish and ancillary european tech thrown in with their integration headaches.
> 
> However, if the choice is the latter - it is important Pakistan makes it a point to publicly announce this divorce from America but keeping in mind that it will be expensive both in monetary and temporal terms. There is no aircraft that Pakistan can purchase to replace its Vipers other than the J-10,no helicopter besides the Z-10ME. That is it.



Or, get rid of the slave mentality entirely and develop your own helicopters.

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## Polestar 2

White and Green with M/S said:


> brother, UCAVs can't be carry much of the payloads of Cobra and Apache, and the also have short ranged air to surface weapons


The CH-5 with uprated turbo shaft can have payload up to 1 tons. 16 ATGM. Not to mention unmatch attitude and loiter time which attack helo can't matched.

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## White and Green with M/S

Polestar 2 said:


> The CH-5 with uprated turbo shaft can have payload up to 1 tons. 16 ATGM. Not to mention unmatch attitude and loiter time which attack helo can't matched.


Then please do tell us what is AGTM It uses? Short range AGTM or long range AGTM like Hellfire latest version?

And we need hundereds of them to secure our by eastern border it will be hedeck to maintain them all

Cobra and Apache can carry 16 Hellfire longbow version so most probably CH-5 is able to carry short range or light weight AGTM

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## Raja Porus

Polestar 2 said:


> The CH-5 with uprated turbo shaft can have payload up to 1 tons. 16 ATGM. Not to mention unmatch attitude and loiter time which attack helo can't matched.


16 missiles doesn't mean 16 atgms. For example, predator(MQ9A) has 7 hard points but can carry only 4 hell fire missiles. Also drones are not for*close* air support. All the the targets can't be engaged with missiles only especially atgms,most often especially when supporting/engaging infantry unguided rockets and machine guns are more desirable


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## Zarvan

Riz said:


> Mention the posters who still expecting PAF will get Block 70 near future


It's USA Turkey clash not Pakistan USA clash. F 16 is a different case.


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## Kingslayerr

Zarvan said:


> It's USA Turkey clash not Pakistan USA clash. F 16 is a different case.


Its not brother. Our AH1z are also not delivered so its also about pak. Otherwise we would be operating our vipers.

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## MMM-E

*PAKISTAN to win future or not ..... wait for a few years and win the future*


Turkey will be 3rd country in the world that develop 10 tons class heavy Attack Helicopter after The US ( AH-64E ) and Russia ( KA-52 )

Turkish TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in a few years even its superior to American LTECH CTS800



*TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine*

TEI-TS1400 engine was designed for the T625 multirole Helicopter and T629 Attack Helicopter


T-129 Attack Helicopter used LHTEC CTS800 turboshaft engines that have 1,373 shaft horsepower each, created jointly by Rolls-Royce and Honeywell

İndigenous engine TEI TS-1400 which produces 1,660 horsepower

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## Trango Towers

Mohsin A said:


> Pakistan still interested in T129 acquisition
> 
> 
> Pakistan's long-running attempt to acquire Turkish Aerospace T129 attack helicopters may finally be nearing a conclusion. Speaking at Defence IQ's virtual International Military Helicopter 2021 conference on 24 February, an unnamed Pakistani army official said that the Turkish-built type was...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.flightglobal.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan still interested in T129 acquisition*
> 
> Pakistan’s long-running attempt to acquire Turkish Aerospace T129 attack helicopters may finally be nearing a conclusion.
> 
> Speaking at Defence IQ’s virtual International Military Helicopter 2021 conference today, an unnamed Pakistani army official said that the Turkish-built type was “still very much under consideration”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Turkish Aerospace
> 
> Islamabad initially ordered 30 examples in 2018
> Islamabad had in 2018 ordered 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion, but the sale foundered on export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the type.
> 
> 
> “The contract is a bit delayed because of certain third-party approvals,” says the army official. “But the OEM is hopeful of getting over the political hurdles and providing that third-party certification.
> 
> “We are still looking forward to accomplishing the contract with the Turkish government.”
> 
> Pakistan intends to replace its fleet of 48 elderly Bell AH-1Fs with the new platform. It had previously struck a deal under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process to purchase 12 Bell AH-1Zs but that deal was also put on hold due to US political concerns.
> 
> At the same conference last year it was suggested that Pakistan would consider Chinese alternatives if the T129 order could not be finalised.


Forget america period. Its our enemy. The sooner we accept this the better

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## MMM-E

White and Green with M/S said:


> brother, UCAVs can't be carry much of the payloads of Cobra and Apache, and the also have short ranged air to surface weapons






Polestar 2 said:


> The CH-5 with uprated turbo shaft can have payload up to 1 tons. 16 ATGM. Not to mention unmatch attitude and loiter time which attack helo can't matched.



*We prefer UCAVs instead of Attack Helicopters to destroy enemy Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS*


Turkish UCAVs for Pakistan to hunt İndian Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS , even Air Defense Systems

AKSUNGUR UCAV with a *750 kg payload* ... AKINCI UCAV with a *1350 kg payload* ( 16 x UMTAS anti Tank Missiles = 600 kg )


















*also KUZGUN joint strike ammunition to hit even moving targets*

Modular Warhead (Fragmantation, Termobaric, General Purpose, Armour Piercing)
GPS, INS Guidance
Low operation cost due to modular warhead option
Independent Guidance Options (INS , LAB, A-INS , IR seeker ,Data Link, mmW Radar)
Weight : 100 kg
Warhead : 25-60 kg
Range : 74-110 km

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## That Guy

Trango Towers said:


> Forget america period. Its our enemy. The sooner we accept this the better


More evidence that nuance is dead.

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## White and Green with M/S

MMM-E said:


> *We prefer UCAVs instead of Attack Helicopters to destroy enemy Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS*
> 
> 
> Turkish UCAVs for Pakistan to hunt İndian Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS , even Air Defense Systems
> 
> AKSUNGUR UCAV with a *750 kg payload* ... AKINCI UCAV with a *1350 kg payload* ( 16 x UMTAS anti Tank Missiles = 600 kg )
> 
> View attachment 723157
> 
> View attachment 723156
> 
> View attachment 723155
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *also KUZGUN joint strike ammunition to hit even moving taargets*
> 
> Modular Warhead (Fragmantation, Termobaric, General Purpose, Armour Piercing)
> GPS, INS Guidance
> Low operation cost due to modular warhead option
> Independent Guidance Options (INS , LAB, A-INS , IR seeker ,Data Link, mmW Radar)
> Weight : 100 kg
> Warhead : 25-60 kg
> Range : 74-110 km
> 
> View attachment 723154


Eeasy targets for enemy defense systems they aren't carry much survival equipment like ECM/ EW/IR defense systems etc etc


----------



## MMM-E

White and Green with M/S said:


> Eeasy targets for enemy defense systems they aren't carry much survival equipment like ECM/ EW/IR defense systems etc etc



Turkish UCAVs have great ECM/ EW capabilities .....

and even Russian Air Defense Systems PANTSIR , BUK , TOR could not stop Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan

Now AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs to carry more lethal weapons like 75-110 km KUZGUN joint strike ammunition , 120 km MRASHM and 280 km SOM Cruise Missiles easly to destroy Air Defense Systems such as PANTSIR , BUK , TOR , S300 , PATRIOT , etc


*Turkish Israeli Drones destroyed 6 S300 and 12 OSA Air Defense Systems in Azerbaijan*



Attack Helicopters are easy targets for enemy MANPADS
on the other hand , AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs have altitude of 40.000 feet


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## Polestar 2

Desert Fox 1 said:


> 16 missiles doesn't mean 16 atgms. For example, predator(MQ9A) has 7 hard points but can carry only 4 hell fire missiles. Also drones are not for*close* air support. All the the targets can't be engaged with missiles only especially atgms,most often especially when supporting/engaging infantry unguided rockets and machine guns are more desirable
















Egypt Becomes First Operator of CH-5 Rainbow Attack Drone


Egypt army has become the 1st foreign operator of Rainbow CH-5 Chinese UAV. also operates Wing Loog 1 UAV SPECS Range: 6,500km Endurance: 60h Playload: 24 air-to-ground missiles (1,200kg) Credit : …




defensenigeria.wordpress.com

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## Zarvan

Pakistan and Turkey should join hands and take help from Ukraine in developing all sorts of engines. We would be biggest fools if we don't learn from this. Ukraine is best source for us to get engine technology. We need to go for it. Plus if we are going to buy Z-10 ME then it should be at least 60 of those beasts not just 30. It's time we focus on getting large numbers of attack helicopters and UAV. 

@fatman17 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @The Eagle @Hakikat ve Hikmet

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan and Turkey should join hands and take help from Ukraine in developing all sorts of engines. We would be biggest fools if we don't learn from this. Ukraine is best source for us to get engine technology. We need to go for it. Plus if we are going to buy Z-10 ME then it should be at least 60 of those beasts not just 30. It's time we focus on getting large numbers of attack helicopters and UAV.
> 
> @fatman17 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @The Eagle @Hakikat ve Hikmet



Why that much beside other assets in inventory and the planned ATAK-2 (may be)? 60 of Z-10ME, 60 of ATAK-2 possibly + the inventory= I see a maintenance burden as compare to their utilization.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Why that much beside other assets in inventory and the planned ATAK-2 (may be)? 60 of Z-10ME, 60 of ATAK-2 possibly + the inventory= I see a maintenance burden as compare to their utilization.


We can't afford to wait for ATAK 2. We need a attack helicopter soon.


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## Tipu7

All this noise is based upon poorly translated media statement. 
T-129 deal still stands. 



Zarvan said:


> Pakistan and Turkey should join hands and take help from Ukraine in developing all sorts of engines. We would be biggest fools if we don't learn from this. Ukraine is best source for us to get engine technology. We need to go for it. Plus if we are going to buy Z-10 ME then it should be at least 60 of those beasts not just 30. It's time we focus on getting large numbers of attack helicopters and UAV.
> 
> @fatman17 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @The Eagle @Hakikat ve Hikmet



Chinese have offered us a comprehensive package comprising of attack and utility helicopters. 
If T-129 deal will fail, and urgency is there, then Pakistan might opt for Chinese options. 

IMHO, joining Turkey in T-625 and T-629 projects for domestic production is a better choice. It's a delayed option, but better result oriented. Instead of raising a Zoo of Gunships all procured off the shelf, emphasis should be given to home grown product.

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## White and Green with M/S

MMM-E said:


> Turkish UCAVs have great ECM/ EW capabilities .....
> 
> and even Russian Air Defense Systems PANTSIR , BUK , TOR could not stop Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan
> 
> Now AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs to carry more lethal weapons like 75-110 km KUZGUN joint strike ammunition , 120 km MRASHM and 280 km SOM Cruise Missiles easly to destroy Air Defense Systems such as PANTSIR , BUK , TOR , S300 , PATRIOT , etc
> 
> 
> *Turkish Israeli Drones destroyed 6 S300 and 12 OSA Air Defense Systems in Azerbaijan*
> 
> 
> 
> Attack Helicopters are easy targets for enemy MANPADS
> on the other hand , AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs have altitude of 40.000 feet


 What ECM systems these Turkish UCAVs has, please specify me??? and these SAMs you refer in your post haven't any modern version of PANTSIR/BUK/TOR and mostly outdated SAM systems (old version) in these wars

our enemy is getting state of art S-400 which have the capability to intercept all kind of targets From Ballistic Missiles to UCAVs/Precision munitions

And Attack Helicopters are also have IR suppressor systems for the defense against MANPADS ( all MANPADS IS IR GUIDED) and UCAVs have lack this feature

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## Irfan Baloch

Desert Fox 1 said:


> 16 missiles doesn't mean 16 atgms. For example, predator(MQ9A) has 7 hard points but can carry only 4 hell fire missiles. Also drones are not for*close* air support. All the the targets can't be engaged with missiles only especially atgms,most often especially when supporting/engaging infantry unguided rockets and machine guns are more desirable


you are right. even for same weapons load the comparison is wrong. 

for lack of term comparing MBT with an anti tank IFV is wrong.

drones are in no way a replacement or an alternative to a helicopter gun ship. its not there yet.
both have their own niche and uses. 

the insistence over drones is due to lack of understanding. one day everthing might be AI controlled drones of a size of bombers and heavy gunships but we are not there yet

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## MMM-E

*Deino*

why are you laughing ?


Turkey has enough capability to develop its own ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter through T-129 Attack Helicopter

Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters

-- fuselage
-- electronics and avionics
-- mission computer
-- Helicopter electronic warfare system
-- Infrared Counter Measure System 
-- HELMET Integrated Display System 
-- fire control radar
-- the main and tail landing gear 
-- Engine
-- the transmission rotor 
-- 20mm and 30 mm Gun with buried munition box 
-- guided rocket
-- missiles

Turkey has 3 different Attack Helicopter projects 5 tons class T-129 , 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class ATAK-II

so T-629 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopter will be 100% indigenous including Turboshaft Engine 


TURKEY was become Drone super power in the World .. ( The US , İsrael , Turkey and China )

and in a few years Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World ( The US , Russia and Turkey )


even Turkey develops unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter

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## MMM-E

White and Green with M/S said:


> What ECM systems these Turkish UCAVs has, please specify me??? and these SAMs you refer in your post haven't any modern version of PANTSIR/BUK/TOR and mostly outdated SAM systems (old version) in these wars
> 
> our enemy is getting state of art S-400 which have the capability to intercept all kind of targets From Ballistic Missiles to UCAVs/Precision munitions
> 
> And Attack Helicopters are also have IR suppressor systems for the defense against MANPADS ( all MANPADS IS IR GUIDED) and UCAVs have lack this feature




The UAE deployed latest version of PANTSIR Air Defense Systems in Libya to stop Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs

but Turkish UCAVs won this battle ..... even Armenian S300 Radars could not trace Turkish Drones in Azerbaijan
and 6 S300 Air Defense Systems were destroyed by Turkish İsraeli Drones in Azerbaijan

also Turkish Drones destroyed hundreds of Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , AFVs , MLRS , thousands of troops in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan

Attack Helicopters can not do it



UCAVs can flight 24 hours day and night at 10.000 m altitude .... ( MANPADS have max 6.000 m altitude )

Attack Helicopters can flight only 3 hours and MANPADS easly can hit Attack Helicopters which flights at max 5000 m

Attack Helicopters have operational range of 500 km ..... UCAVs have operational range of 2.500 km

*American STINGER MANPADS destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters in Afghanistan and Russians failed in Afghanistan



Attack Helicopters are nothing to compare with UCAVs*

Attack Helicopters armed with only 8 km Missiles to fight against Tanks
and Attack Helicopters are easy targets for MANPADS , medium and high altitude Air Defense Systems

but Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 100km KUZGUN guided munitions to destroy even moving targets including Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS , also PANTSIR , BUK , TOR Air Defense Systems

Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 280 km SOM Cruise Missile to destroy Air Defense Systems such as PATRIOT , S300 , S400

also Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 8km MIZRAK and 30 km TEMREN anti Tank Missiles to destroy enemy Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS ,etc

even Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 25 and 60 km BOZDOGAN - GOKDOGAN air to air Missiles to destroy enemy Aircrafts , Attack Helicopters , UCAVs , etc



*so Turkish UCAVs are game changer great machines ...... We prefer new warfare concept UCAVs instead of old warfare concept Attack Helicopter *

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## nomi007

Hope Pakistan will play Afghanistan card.
2nd army chief have to discuss this issue and Ah-1z issue with his American counterpart and* Zalmay Khalilzad.*

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> Hope Pakistan will play Afghanistan card.
> 2nd army chief have to discuss this issue and Ah-1z issue with his American counterpart and* Zalmay Khalilzad.*


They are just post office nothing more


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## GriffinsRule

Here is what I think. There is no urgency within the PAA to get new gunships now that the war in the tribal areas is over. PA can afford to wait and that is what it is doing. If the need was as great as members here believe it to be, we would have ordered additional Mi-35s already by now. There's no looming war with India thus no urgency to get the AH-1Zs or T129s. Mind you it's only $s that's holding the Zulu cobras back. 
PA is also not going to be buying Russian helps besides the hind. Even that was a piss poor decision and I wonder what was the motive behind it. Maybe corruption was part of it, or maybe at the time they thought Russia would get closer relationship going with Pakistan. There used to be talks of Putin visits and whatnot so maybe it was to test the waters. Either way, can forget any other Russian attack chopper types making their way over.
As far as Turks go, looks like we are waiting to get the engine cleared, which might happen. If it doesn't we can explore Z-10 again and decide where to go. 
UAVs are not a replacement for helos and nor do we need Turkish drones in any large number. Invest in your own and support the Pakistani companies producing them. Also, their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.

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## nomi007

mingle said:


> They are just post office nothing more


Bhai Bara ho ja.

we have to play Afghan card,

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Or, get rid of the slave mentality entirely and develop your own helicopters.


Ideally yes - but as pointed out by many in the industry, these opportunities came for Pakistanis and they either by complacency or vested interests let them go.

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## ACE OF HEARTS

If Z - 10 ME is the answer to the requests in improvements / enhancements made by PAA, to China, then why still T 129 is being pursued?

Are there still deficiencies in the improved Z 10 - ME?

Or are there HUGE kick backs INVOLVED in the T 129 deal, which is big enough to keep PAA in the loop, INDEFINITELY, even without a FOREIGN engine approval or LOCAL / INDIGENOUS availability?

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## Deino

Oh well, I'm indeed amused since there is again too much chest bumping and wishful thinking spiced up with wrong conclusions, but first of all, why again spamming the Pakistan Army T-129 thread with aims and hopes of the Turkish helicopter projects? It is irrelevant!



MMM-E said:


> Turkey has enough capability to develop its own ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter through T-129 Attack Helicopter
> Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters



I highly question this since most items of this list is irrelevant as long as they don't have a fully certified and mature engine and with just the second prototype engine running since a few months I would beg to wait how reliable it is.



> Turkey has 3 different Attack Helicopter projects 5 tons class T-129 , 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class ATAK-II
> 
> so T-629 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopter will be 100% indigenous including Turboshaft Engine




OMG, that's exactly the hubris most Western observers don't like and find amusing; Most countries are overloaded with one project running - just look at the UK Tonal, the Franco-German Tiger and Japan's projects, but Turkey can build THREE at the same time, each of them better than the other and in the end in the same league like the Apache and Ka-50 or Mi-28! 

Come on - just like our Indian friends - get the T-129 ready running on an own engine first before claiming "Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World"!  



> TURKEY was become Drone super power in the World .. ( The US , İsrael , Turkey and China )
> 
> and in a few years Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World ( The US , Russia and Turkey )




Nope again ... indeed Turkey has a few impressive indigenous developments, but I won't rate "Drone super power in the World" ... so and ask others in the world!



> even Turkey develops unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter



Again wrong, it is a testbed only, nothing special, nothing unique and as such not an all electric combat ready helicopter! Just a testbed. 


But now - as in the MMU/TFX and Hürjet threads ... instead of claiming what will be in a few years, make your homework and bring the true indigenously powered T-129 flying, then we can talk about "Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World".

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Here is what I think. There is no urgency within the PAA to get new gunships now that the war in the tribal areas is over. PA can afford to wait and that is what it is doing. If the need was as great as members here believe it to be, we would have ordered additional Mi-35s already by now. There's no looming war with India thus no urgency to get the AH-1Zs or T129s. Mind you it's only $s that's holding the Zulu cobras back.
> PA is also not going to be buying Russian helps besides the hind. Even that was a piss poor decision and I wonder what was the motive behind it. Maybe corruption was part of it, or maybe at the time they thought Russia would get closer relationship going with Pakistan. There used to be talks of Putin visits and whatnot so maybe it was to test the waters. Either way, can forget any other Russian attack chopper types making their way over.
> As far as Turks go, looks like we are waiting to get the engine cleared, which might happen. If it doesn't we can explore Z-10 again and decide where to go.
> UAVs are not a replacement for helos and nor do we need Turkish drones in any large number. Invest in your own and support the Pakistani companies producing them. Also, their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.


The Turks put aside money from their national budget to serve as credit for the T129 deal. We are stretched for credit, so until we free it up (by paying off other programs) or add to it (with a better economic picture), we're not going to be able to sustain new big-ticket contracts easily.

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## MMM-E

GriffinsRule said:


> their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.




PANTSIR is newest Russian self propelled Air Defense System since 2012
and Turkish UCAVs won this battle against PANTSIR Air Defense System in Syria and Libya


İndian Army easly can destroy Attack Helicopters .... even MANPADS can do it .... even I am not talking about Russian PANTSIR Air Defense System

but İndian Air Defense Systems can not match with Turkish UCAVs ..... not even close
and Turkish UCAVs can hunt İndian Air Defense Systems , Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS , Troops in KASHMIR

even Turkish AKINCI UCAVs easly can hunt Indian Army AH-64 Attack Helicopters
4 Turkish AKINCI UCAVs to carry AESA Radar and 24 GOKDOGAN air to air missiles ( range of 60 km ) will be enough to destroy Indian Army 24 AH-64 Attack Helicopters


*Attack Helicopters and Tanks are obsolete in front of Turkish UCAVs

Tanks are easy targets for Turkish UCAVs ....... soon Attack Helicopters also will be easy targets for Turkish AKINCI UCAVs*

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## MMM-E

Deino said:


> Oh well, I'm indeed amused since there is again too much chest bumping and wishful thinking spiced up with wrong conclusions, but first of all, why again spamming the Pakistan Army T-129 thread with aims and hopes of the Turkish helicopter projects? It is irrelevant!






Deino said:


> Come on - just like our Indian friends - get the T-129 ready running on an own engine first before claiming "Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World"!




chest bumping and wishful thinking ?

keep laughing ..... We dont care about LOSERs


5 years ago , same guys like you said that Turkey can not develop UCAV

but between 2018 and 2021 Turkish UCAVs Bayraktar TB-2 , ANKA-S , AKSUNGUR , AKINCI amazed the world
also jet engine powered MIUS UCAV by 2023

as of 2021 , Turkey has more UCAVs than all Europe combined


Turkish UCAVs changed the game in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan .... ( even Russia , Europe , İndia , Japan are dreaming about this UCAV technology )

and Qatar , Libya , Azerbaijan , Tunusia , Ukraine bought Turkish UCAVs .. also dozens of Countries wants to buy UCAVs from Turkey


sooner or later Turkish Attack Helicopters with Turkish turboshaft Engine will be exported to many Countries including PAKISTAN

dont worry , in a few years Everybody will see Turkish Attack Helicopters
T-129
T-629
ATAK-II
also unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter

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## Deino

Do me a favour! Let's enjoy together Turkey's high hopes and ambitions since without high hopes and ambitions you won't reach anything (best example is Germany, which is in fact a true mess!) but I prefer to remain realistic and until these "high hopes and ambitions" can be met, still a lot of time will pass by.

As such I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I'll celebrate with you for your countries then-achievements, but for now, the questions and unsolved issues are greater than what has already been achieved and countries with much larger budget and greater experience failed, so therefore please do not claim this all as already done facts.

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## That Guy

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan and Turkey should join hands and take help from Ukraine in developing all sorts of engines. We would be biggest fools if we don't learn from this. Ukraine is best source for us to get engine technology. We need to go for it. Plus if we are going to buy Z-10 ME then it should be at least 60 of those beasts not just 30. It's time we focus on getting large numbers of attack helicopters and UAV.
> 
> @fatman17 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @The Eagle @Hakikat ve Hikmet


With Ukraine's shattered economy, their defense sales are pretty much the only things keeping them afloat. What makes you think they'll willingly give up their knowledge on how to build reliable engines, thus creating competitors to their own companies? They'd be fools to do so.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Guy said:


> With Ukraine's shattered economy, their defense sales are pretty much the only things keeping them afloat. What makes you think they'll willingly give up their knowledge on how to build reliable engines, thus creating competitors to their own companies? They'd be fools to do so.


The only way it'd work is if we buy into their industry and commit to some kind of 'no re-export' clause for anything we make in Pakistan using their IP. I suspect a big reason why Ukraine was hesitant to transfer any key IP to Turkey was the risk of competition. For Pakistan, the issue has more to do with security and guaranteeing our supply line, not commercial gain; so, we may have a chance.

Overall, this is a huge reason why we need to invest in IP creation in Pakistan. We might do a few thing well enough where we can trade secrets with others -- talk as peers, not as punks.

Perhaps take an approach where we co-fund or entirely fund the design and development of an engine in Ukraine, and we then build it turn-key in Pakistan. However, we don't stop them from re-exporting that engine and, likewise, whenever we make sales for say a fighter, helicopter or drone on our end, we source the engine from Ukraine. We emphasize to them that we don't want to be arms dealers, we're just trying to fight for our survival.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

GriffinsRule said:


> UAVs are not a replacement for helos and nor do we need Turkish drones in any large number. Invest in your own and support the Pakistani companies producing them. Also, their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.


As for the Turkish EW, it's basically first and foremost developed to face the Western systems!! Turkey considers the West as the principal foe, not Russia....

*An example: a couple of months back, a French frigate in a mission to support Greece in the East Med was completely jammed and "phantom" images of imminent threats were generated to make it get away. Their fear and agony were so obvious in the intercepted comms
**Another example: during a recent "dog-fight" type close contact the Turkish F-16s were chasing the Greek F-16s away the French Rafaels were loitering nearby. The interesting part is the Rafaels simply disappeared from the scene leaving their Greek brethren at the mercy of the TurAF

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## TheDarkKnight

Deino said:


> Do me a favour! Let's enjoy together Turkey's high hopes and ambitions since without high hopes and ambitions you won't reach anything (best example is Germany, which is in fact a true mess!) but I prefer to remain realistic and until these "high hopes and ambitions" can be met, still a lot of time will pass by.
> 
> As such I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I'll celebrate with you for your countries then-achievements, but for now, the questions and unsolved issues are greater than what has already been achieved and countries with much larger budget and greater experience failed, so therefore please do not claim this all as already done facts.


I some times just sit quietly reading all the “ambitious” project goals that people celebrate. The issue is that most laymen are fimiliar with the development and release cycle of civil tech gadgets like cellphones, since the development to release cycle is usual in months, they then start inferring aero space timelines from it. 
The bitter truth is, as I had seen in aerospace software and systems I worked on, the development cycles are slow and take their time to complete even if you are starting from a certified and matured baseline (i.e not from scratch). Even those timelines we always estimated in years before giving something to the OEM, and the OEM itself (like bombardier, agusta etc) would take their own time via flight tests to fully certify. There was a control surface stabilizers’ control unit SW that I was leading for SW development, and just the SW changes we had to complete before certifying with 10-15 team members was turning into 1-1.5 years - and mind you the SW and Sys dev was ongoing from another certified baseline for a couple of years before I came to the team. The Mechanical team was itself in a mess trying to solve a certain problem identified in the design during flight test (a certain failure mode was dormant but got detected in some conditions) - Long story short with a change in mechanical design would require new control SW development and testing again! And we never use cutting edge technology in these products, we use old time tested and mature methodologies to build these systems and they take their very sweet time to meet safety critical requirements.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

That Guy said:


> With Ukraine's shattered economy, their defense sales are pretty much the only things keeping them afloat. What makes you think they'll willingly give up their knowledge on how to build reliable engines, thus creating competitors to their own companies? They'd be fools to do so.


Turkey is going for JVs with the Ukranian companies to build engines of all sorts. You're right they don't simply share their core technologies with any outsiders...


Deino said:


> Do me a favour! Let's enjoy together Turkey's high hopes and ambitions since without high hopes and ambitions you won't reach anything (best example is Germany, which is in fact a true mess!) but I prefer to remain realistic and until these "high hopes and ambitions" can be met, still a lot of time will pass by.
> 
> As such I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I'll celebrate with you for your countries then-achievements, but for now, the questions and unsolved issues are greater than what has already been achieved and countries with much larger budget and greater experience failed, so therefore please do not claim this all as already done facts.


Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein

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## That Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only way it'd work is if we buy into their industry and commit to some kind of 'no re-export' clause for anything we make in Pakistan using their IP. I suspect a big reason why Ukraine was hesitant to transfer any key IP to Turkey was the risk of competition. For Pakistan, the issue has more to do with security and guaranteeing our supply line, not commercial gain; so, we may have a chance.
> 
> Overall, this is a huge reason why we need to invest in IP creation in Pakistan. We might do a few thing well enough where we can trade secrets with others -- talk as peers, not as punks.
> 
> Perhaps take an approach where we co-fund or entirely fund the design and development of an engine in Ukraine, and we then build it turn-key in Pakistan. However, we don't stop them from re-exporting that engine and, likewise, whenever we make sales for say a fighter, helicopter or drone on our end, we source the engine from Ukraine. We emphasize to them that we don't want to be arms dealers, we're just trying to fight for our survival.


That could maybe work, but it would still force Pakistan to continue being reliant on a foreign entity for an extremely vital need for its defense forces, and the Ukrainians could end up milking Pakistan for as much money as possible. Pakistan is at a point in its history that it can no longer afford to continue relying on foreign partners for its supply of defense systems.

Honestly, maybe Pakistan is better off going the China and Iran route of reverse engineering existing systems to help build up its domestic defense industry.

By the way, I realize that I'm just moving the goal post, but I honestly think its never gonna happen.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

That Guy said:


> That could maybe work, but it would still force Pakistan to continue being reliant on a foreign entity for an extremely vital need for its defense forces, and the Ukrainians could end up milking Pakistan for as much money as possible. Pakistan is at a point in its history that it can no longer afford to continue relying on foreign partners for its supply of defense systems.
> 
> Honestly, maybe Pakistan is better off going the China and Iran route of reverse engineering existing systems to help build up its domestic defense industry.
> 
> By the way, I realize that I'm just moving the goal post, but I honestly think its never gonna happen.


Our deficits are money and lack of IP. I think a genuine reverse engineering effort -- i.e., one aimed at the core of a system -- would help lots in IP generation. We aren't going to get a 100% carbon copy, there will be variances in design stemming from differences in resources, expertise, etc. If we have the IP, then we could actually have serious IP-sharing conversations with others. If they don't want to listen, then we continue to work on what we have and make it ourselves, alone.

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## That Guy

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Our deficits are money and lack of IP. I think a genuine reverse engineering effort -- i.e., one aimed at the core of a system -- would help lots in IP generation. We aren't going to get a 100% carbon copy, there will be variances in design stemming from differences in resources, expertise, etc. If we have the IP, then we could actually have serious IP-sharing conversations with others. If they don't want to listen, then we continue to work on what we have and make it ourselves, alone.


A good way to create a good chunk of IPs would be to allow local private enterprises to enter the playing field. Much in the similar way that Boeing, Lockheed Martin and other companies in the US compete for government contracts. Its a good way to create competition, expand Pakistanis industrial base, and foster brand new innovations.

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## Raja Porus

GriffinsRule said:


> Mind you it's only $s that's holding the Zulu cobras back


Couldn't get you,sir


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## GriffinsRule

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Couldn't get you,sir


As in its not any sanctions that are stopping us from buying them. The disagreement is which funds to use hence no delivery. If tomorrow Pakistan feels like it wants to shell out the payment for them, they will come over.

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## MMM-E

White and Green with M/S said:


> With a Untrained or semi trained operators In Middle East yes Turkish UCAV definitely wins



Russians trained and used Air Defense Systems in Armenia , Syria and Libya

İndia or Pakistan have zero experience to fight UCAVs .... so Middle East is far better than İndia+Pakistan combined to fight against UCAVs


btw untrained or semi trained Afghans destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters by American STINGER MANPADS in Afghanistan

even PKK terrorists use MANPADS to hit Attack Helicopters

on the other hand , MANPADS can not hit UCAVs which flights at 10.000 m altitude





White and Green with M/S said:


> S-300 doesn't have the capability to intercept UAVs/precision munitions so you claims is just ridiculous



and You said thar our enemies have S400 to destroy UCAVs
S400 also can not match with Turkish BayraktarTB-2 UCAVs

Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
Bayraktar TB-2 UCAV has been designed to emit a low-radar signature .. Turkish UCAV's radar cross section is much smaller than Attack Helicopters

Attack Helicopters have very big RCS to be seen on Radars
even MANPADS can hit Attack Helicopters






White and Green with M/S said:


> Ok, if your UCAVs that super than why your military developing and inducting T-129? If attack helos are obsolete, NO attack helos is not a obsolete concept, all major powers using attack helo and UCAVs as a complimentary to attack helos




Turkey used UCAVs to destroy hundreds of Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , thousands of troops , also dozens of Air Defense Systems in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan

I am saying again , Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
and if we lost UCAV , its only platform but not pilot

Attack Helicopters can not do it ..... not even close
so easy to hit Attack Helicopters

and major powers like Europe , Russia , İndia have no UCAVs to use in a conflict


now Tanks are obsolete concept ... because , success of Turkish Drones in Libya , Syria and Azerbaijan as examples of their vital importance in modern warfare

*even UK defense chief Ben Wallace said that Turkish use of drones 'game-changing'*


now only 4 Turkish AKINCI UCAVs armed with 24 air to air missiles + AESA Radar can hit 24 Indian AH-64 Attack Helicopters in combat zone

hundreds of Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 , ANKA-S , AKSUNGUR UCAVs can destroy thousands of enemy Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , Troops , also enemy Radars and Air Defense Systems

even I am not talking about jet engine powered stealth UCAV called MIUS which with 1.000 kg payload and AESA Radar


UCAVs are future concept and UCAVs can flight 24 hours to block enemy forces in combat zone

Attack Helicopters can not do it

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## MMM-E

White and Green with M/S said:


> please you ultra national Sh!t why you have projects of attack helos if your UCAVs is that super, now go to Turkish section, this thread is not for your baseless blabbering, we are free that what should we buy in the future for countering Indian armored columns



You İgnorant sh1t ... Turkey has also many UCAV projects and Turkey used UCAVs in Syria , Libya , Azerbaijan to win conflicts , not Attack Helicopters

Turkish Army use Attack Helicopters to fight terrorism ...... Attack Helicopter is so pathetic to fight against Russian MANPADS and Air Defense Systems

Turkey would lose conflicts in Syria , Libya , Azerbaijan , if we used Attack Helicopters


Indian Army easly can rape Attack Helicopters including AH-64E , AH-1Z VIPER or KA-52

Pakistan should focus on UCAVs ... not only Attack Helicopters

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## White and Green with M/S

MMM-E said:


> Russians trained and used Air Defense Systems in Armenia , Syria and Libya


prove it


MMM-E said:


> İndia or Pakistan have zero experience to fight UCAVs .... so Middle East is far better than İndia+Pakistan combined to fight against UCAVs


Pakistan have more experience to design and develop UAVs and put on the border for spying and for the surveillance purpose, in fact Pakistan was the first Muslim country in the world to design and develop Indigenous UAVs for spying and border petrol and only Muslim country that sells UAVs to USA for border petrol, 


MMM-E said:


> I am saying again , Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
> and if we lost UCAV , its only platform but not pilot


How can these UAVs have a cloaking device in it?? no jet or aircraft totally invisible to electromagnetic radiation but all stealth jets have reduce radar cross sections as all superpowers (China/Russia/USA/UK/France) are claiming


MMM-E said:


> btw untrained or semi trained Afghans destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters by American STINGER MANPADS in Afghanistan


and old soviet helicopters have a bad IR suppressor system as compare to the west (i m not claiming latest Russian attack Helicopters like MI-28/KA-50,52)


MMM-E said:


> even PKK terrorists use MANPADS to hit Attack Helicopters


and how many PKK terrorists hit attack helicopters please do tell us???


MMM-E said:


> on the other hand , MANPADS can not hit UCAVs which flights at 10.000 m altitude


But the medium range SAMs can able to hit them like our enemy's AKASH SAMs


MMM-E said:


> and You said thar our enemies have S400 to destroy UCAVs
> S400 also can not match with Turkish BayraktarTB-2 UCAVs


S-400 has missile to hit any UCAVs at 40 km range


MMM-E said:


> Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs


and tell me how its weapons hang in weapons pylons which increases RCS significantly, is it using a some kind of cloaking device to hide all electromagnetic radiations


MMM-E said:


> Attack Helicopters have very big RCS to be seen on Radars
> even MANPADS can hit Attack Helicopters


So did UCAVs because of weapon payloads


MMM-E said:


> Russians trained and used Air Defense Systems in Armenia , Syria and Libya
> 
> İndia or Pakistan have zero experience to fight UCAVs .... so Middle East is far better than İndia+Pakistan combined to fight against UCAVs
> 
> 
> btw untrained or semi trained Afghans destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters by American STINGER MANPADS in Afghanistan
> 
> even PKK terrorists use MANPADS to hit Attack Helicopters
> 
> on the other hand , MANPADS can not hit UCAVs which flights at 10.000 m altitude
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and You said thar our enemies have S400 to destroy UCAVs
> S400 also can not match with Turkish BayraktarTB-2 UCAVs
> 
> Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
> Bayraktar TB-2 UCAV has been designed to emit a low-radar signature .. Turkish UCAV's radar cross section is much smaller than Attack Helicopters
> 
> Attack Helicopters have very big RCS to be seen on Radars
> even MANPADS can hit Attack Helicopters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey used UCAVs to destroy hundreds of Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , thousands of troops , also dozens of Air Defense Systems in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan
> 
> I am saying again , Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
> and if we lost UCAV , its only platform but not pilot
> 
> Attack Helicopters can not do it ..... not even close
> so easy to hit Attack Helicopters
> 
> and major powers like Europe , Russia , İndia have no UCAVs to use in a conflict
> 
> 
> now Tanks are obsolete concept ... because , success of Turkish Drones in Libya , Syria and Azerbaijan as examples of their vital importance in modern warfare
> 
> *even UK defense chief Ben Wallace said that Turkish use of drones 'game-changing'*
> 
> 
> now only 4 Turkish AKINCI UCAVs armed with 24 air to air missiles + AESA Radar can hit 24 Indian AH-64 Attack Helicopters in combat zone
> 
> hundreds of Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 , ANKA-S , AKSUNGUR UCAVs can destroy thousands of enemy Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , Troops , also enemy Radars and Air Defense Systems
> 
> even I am not talking about jet engine powered stealth UCAV called MIUS which with 1.000 kg payload and AESA Radar
> 
> 
> UCAVs are future concept and UCAVs can flight 24 hours to block enemy forces in combat zone
> 
> Attack Helicopters can not do it


and this part is nothing but a baseless blabbering of yours


MMM-E said:


> You İgnorant sh1t ... Turkey has also many UCAV projects and Turkey used UCAVs in Syria , Libya , Azerbaijan to win conflicts , not Attack Helicopters
> 
> Turkish Army use Attack Helicopters to fight terrorism ...... Attack Helicopter is s1t to fight against Russian MANPADS and Air Defense Systems


first explain why you have heavy attack helicopters projects in your country if you (Turkey) thinks attack helicopters is the obsolete concepts???


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## MMM-E

White and Green with M/S said:


> Pakistan have more experience to design and develop UAVs and put on the border for spying and for the surveillance purpose, in fact Pakistan was the first Muslim country in the world to design and develop Indigenous UAVs for spying and border petrol and only Muslim country that sells UAVs to USA for border petrol,



Well done Pakistan ..... but I am talking about UCAV technology

Turkey is only muslim country that develop real Combat UCAV like AKINCI which will carry AESA Radar , Cruise Missile , long range guided Bombs even 60km air to air missiles

even Europe , Russia , İndia are dreaming about this UCAV technology ..... and only The US , İsrael , Turkey and China in the world

Pakistan should work with Turkey on UCAV and Helicopter technologies





White and Green with M/S said:


> How can these UAVs have a cloaking device in it?? no jet or aircraft totally invisible to electromagnetic radiation but all stealth jets have reduce radar cross sections as all superpowers (China/Russia/USA/UK/France) are claiming



a week ago , Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 entered Greek airspace for 16km .. and TB-2 Drone was near of American military base in Greece .. and Radars could not detect/trace TB-2 Drone

Greeks learned about this from flightradar24.com





White and Green with M/S said:


> and old soviet helicopters have a bad IR suppressor system as compare to the west (i m not claiming latest Russian attack Helicopters like MI-28/KA-50,52)



MI-28 and KA-52 are easy targets for MANPADS ...
Turkish Army has 4800+ STINGER MANPADS ( Missiles ) also Turkey has developed its own SUNGUR MANPADS with range of 8km to destroy all enemy Attack Helicopters

and Turkish HISAR mobile Air Defense Systems can turn MI-28 , KA-52 , AH-64E , Z-10ME Attack Helicopters into crap of metal





White and Green with M/S said:


> and how many PKK terrorists hit attack helicopters please do tell us???



a few Turkish COBRA Attack Helicopters were shot down by PKK terrorists ..( by Russian-made MANPADS )

The US gave hundreds of MANPADS to YPG Terrorists in Syria
if we use Attack Helicopters in the eastern Syria , then we will lose many Attack Helicopters

but Turkish UCAVs can attack on terrorists at 10.000 m altitude and MANPADS can not hit Turkish UCAVs





White and Green with M/S said:


> But the medium range SAMs can able to hit them like our enemy's AKASH SAMs



AKASH SAMs easly can hit MI-28 , KA-52 , AH-64E , T129 , Z-10ME Attack Helicopters

but Turkish AKINCI UCAV can hit AKASH SAMs even from 70km away ... thanks to Turkish KUZGUN guided munition to hit even moving targets ..... and AKINCI UCAV can carry minimum 6 KUZGUN guided munitions to attack on enemy Tanks , Howitzers , MLRSs or Air Defense Systems

Modular Warhead (Fragmantation, Termobaric, General Purpose, Armour Piercing)
GPS, INS Guidance
Low operation cost due to modular warhead option
Independent Guidance Options (INS , LAB, A-INS , IR seeker ,Data Link, mmW Radar)
Weight : 100 kg
Warhead : 25-60 kg
Range : 74-110 km








also AKINCI UCAVs will carry 120km MRASHM or 280km SOM cruise Missiles ..... *good luck to enemy air defense systems ....they will need it*






White and Green with M/S said:


> first explain why you have heavy attack helicopters projects in your country if you (Turkey) thinks attack helicopters is the obsolete concepts???



To sell it foreign countries to match with American AH-64E and Russian KA-52
T-129 is not heavy Attack Helicopter ... and many Countries have selected AH-64 instead of T-129 to fight against Tanks

but T-129 is good to fight terrorism ... ( T129 is small , agile , and T-129 was optimized for hot and high conditions ) T-129 is the best option to fight terrorism in mountain areas


and Turkey will use UCAVs + Attack Helicopters ...... for example hundreds of UCAVs + 100-120 T-129 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopters






White and Green with M/S said:


> S-400 has missile to hit any UCAVs at 40 km range



40 km ? what a funny

1) Turkey and İndia dont buy S400s with 40km missiles .... Turkey and İndia buys S400 with 250-380km missiles to intercept Fighter Jets , AWACS , Bombers , etc

2) 40km missiles can not stop Turkish AKINCI UCAVs

AKINCI UCAVs will carry AESA Radar , 74-110km KUZGUN guided munitions , 120km MRASHM or 280km SOM cruise Missiles to hit Air Defense Systems like AKASH , PANTSIR , BUK , TOR , PATRIOT , S300 , S400

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> We can't afford to wait for ATAK 2. We need a attack helicopter soon.



That was my choice and what if ...... otherwise, ATAK T-129 is still committed for PA. Delays occurs but sometimes you wait for it given the capability of platform and the benefits comes with it. It will be too soon to talk about it but I can assure you that everyone will be appreciating for such a decision.

Secondly, the delay due to US sanctions against engine; isn't a mountain coming down on us. You can call it the day when brothers make a stand for each other and Pakistan understands Turkey's position and so Turkish brothers are walking extra miles for us too. A brotherly give & take which cannot be explained simply but everyone will be enjoying the fruits in coming years. Wait for it my dear.... wait for it as the patience is the key here.

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## Readerdefence

Hi at the end can anybody post something about ATAK129 instead of discussing ucav though there should be a dedicated thread for discussing UCAV 
thank you

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## araz

TheDarkKnight said:


> I some times just sit quietly reading all the “ambitious” project goals that people celebrate. The issue is that most laymen are fimiliar with the development and release cycle of civil tech gadgets like cellphones, since the development to release cycle is usual in months, they then start inferring aero space timelines from it.
> The bitter truth is, as I had seen in aerospace software and systems I worked on, the development cycles are slow and take their time to complete even if you are starting from a certified and matured baseline (i.e not from scratch). Even those timelines we always estimated in years before giving something to the OEM, and the OEM itself (like bombardier, agusta etc) would take their own time via flight tests to fully certify. There was a control surface stabilizers’ control unit SW that I was leading for SW development, and just the SW changes we had to complete before certifying with 10-15 team members was turning into 1-1.5 years - and mind you the SW and Sys dev was ongoing from another certified baseline for a couple of years before I came to the team. The Mechanical team was itself in a mess trying to solve a certain problem identified in the design during flight test (a certain failure mode was dormant but got detected in some conditions) - Long story short with a change in mechanical design would require new control SW development and testing again! And we never use cutting edge technology in these products, we use old time tested and mature methodologies to build these systems and they take their very sweet time to meet safety critical requirements.


Thank you for a very valuable post. It makes others realize how difficult the job actually is and why even minor changes take years to complete and verify. No wonder JFT took 4 years for Block 3 to get clearance before building a prototype.
A


Readerdefence said:


> Hi at the end can anybody post something about ATAK129 instead of discussing ucav though there should be a dedicated thread for discussing UCAV
> thank you


The bottom line is T129 is in dire straits for the next 5-6 years till the Turks get a new engine certified to use on the project and then PAA test it in Pakistan again. Add 3 more years to get inducted and you are looking at 2028-2030 if at all.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Thank you for a very valuable post. It makes others realize how difficult the job actually is and why even minor changes take years to complete and verify. No wonder JFT took 4 years for Block 3 to get clearance before building a prototype.
> A
> 
> The bottom line is T129 is in dire straits for the next 5-6 years till the Turks get a new engine certified to use on the project and then PAA test it in Pakistan again. Add 3 more years to get inducted and you are looking at 2028-2030 if at all.


I don't think the Turks will add their engine to the T129.

It seems they're actually moving harder on the indigenous T629 and T625 project, which is similar to India's Dhruv/LCH.

Yes, the induction timeline of the T625 and T629 is likely closer to 2030 (i.e., development, testing, setting-up production, etc).

However, unlike the T129, the Turks can (and probably will) offer transfer-of-technology and serious co-production opportunities to Pakistan if it signs onto the T629 and T625 combination.

I'd maybe flip the equation with the Turks. 

This time, we don't ask for credit or loans, but we foot cash. However, in return, we get a 50% offset that sets up the helicopter industry in Pakistan from scratch. 

If the armed forces commit to orders (for example 100+ attack helicopters and 150+ utility helicopters), we can invite the private sector of ours to foot the other 50% of the industry investment.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

MME, years have passed, please use your conscience and stop disgracing us. Turkey continues T129 also rapidly increasing deliveries. So you must give it continuous to say that this is a problem between the United States and Turkey.

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## eagleeye

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> MME, years have passed, please use your conscience and stop disgracing us. Turkey continues T129 also rapidly increasing deliveries. So you must give it continuous to say that this is a problem between the United States and Turkey.


In addition, Tai is preparing for serial production of the skorsky T70 with Turkish avionics. tei produces the T700-TEI701D turbo shaft engine under Lisence and Alp Aviation the transmission. Tei is still producing 4 Engines per week. The americans do not want a competitor in the export of helicopters









404 - TUSAS


404




www.tusas.com

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## khanasifm

Let’s see if Interest in other buyer are also turned down ??

I think 🇦🇪 and another cou try had also shown interest in Turkish heli
Good at least it happened before ans not after sale completed


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## JamD

After parading Z-10 and T-129, for this year's parade...

Plot twist:

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## Constantin84

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the Turks will add their engine to the T129.
> 
> It seems they're actually moving harder on the indigenous T629 and T625 project, which is similar to India's Dhruv/LCH.
> 
> Yes, the induction timeline of the T625 and T629 is likely closer to 2030 (i.e., development, testing, setting-up production, etc).
> 
> However, unlike the T129, the Turks can (and probably will) offer transfer-of-technology and serious co-production opportunities to Pakistan if it signs onto the T629 and T625 combination.
> 
> I'd maybe flip the equation with the Turks.
> 
> This time, we don't ask for credit or loans, but we foot cash. However, in return, we get a 50% offset that sets up the helicopter industry in Pakistan from scratch.
> 
> If the armed forces commit to orders (for example 100+ attack helicopters and 150+ utility helicopters), we can invite the private sector of ours to foot the other 50% of the industry investment.


Do you have an estimate of the Pakistani Armed Forces short to medium helicopter needs, split by all 3 branches (Navy,AF, Army...transport, attack, maritime, training, etc) ?


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## airmarshal

The deal is dead. 









US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan


Turkey and Pakistan had signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018.



www.dawn.com





USA blocked sale of engines to Turkey using its CAATSA law. So Pakistan should look for an alternative. This is unfortunate.


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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the Turks will add their engine to the T129.
> 
> It seems they're actually moving harder on the indigenous T629 and T625 project, which is similar to India's Dhruv/LCH.
> 
> Yes, the induction timeline of the T625 and T629 is likely closer to 2030 (i.e., development, testing, setting-up production, etc).
> 
> However, unlike the T129, the Turks can (and probably will) offer transfer-of-technology and serious co-production opportunities to Pakistan if it signs onto the T629 and T625 combination.
> 
> I'd maybe flip the equation with the Turks.
> 
> This time, we don't ask for credit or loans, but we foot cash. However, in return, we get a 50% offset that sets up the helicopter industry in Pakistan from scratch.
> 
> If the armed forces commit to orders (for example 100+ attack helicopters and 150+ utility helicopters), we can invite the private sector of ours to foot the other 50% of the industry investment.




paa Army aviation is headed by a major Gen that gives you an idea of how big is aviation arm vs other arms 

Pumas mi171 and bell 412 put together are no more than 100 /120 or so

rest of fleet is smaller types so this order of 100 attack and 150 transport need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&$$$$$$$$ country Cannot balanced budget and borrow every year cannot wish for such Luxury


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## spectregunship

khanasifm said:


> paa Army aviation is headed by a major Gen that gives you an idea of how big is aviation arm vs other arms
> 
> Pumas mi171 and bell 412 put together are no more than 100 /120 or so
> 
> rest of fleet is smaller types so this order of 100 attack and 150 transport need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&$$$$$$$$ country Cannot balanced budget and borrow every year cannot wish for such Luxury



Not that the expansion isnt doable. I'd say we are not planning procurement and force development well. Generally taking things for granted. It hasnt happened before. G3 replacement program shelved, unnecessary delay in VT4 induction and list is on...PAA's procurement / modernization plans are part of the same issues plaguing us right now..

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## Reichmarshal

just the mi 17 component of the PAA is around 80.
40 bell 412 were delivered.
pumas are around 45
cobras make around 40+
fennec/ecureuil around 25
a sqd of lamas
around 5 aw139 and 4 mi35
then theirs the jet ranger and Alouette around 30

not to forget the fixed-wing component of mushshak, Beechcraft, caravans,y12, citation, gulf stream etc etc..
and now the new addition of ucav.
All in all a big force.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> paa Army aviation is headed by a major Gen that gives you an idea of how big is aviation arm vs other arms
> 
> Pumas mi171 and bell 412 put together are no more than 100 /120 or so
> 
> rest of fleet is smaller types so this order of 100 attack and 150 transport need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&$$$$$$$$ country Cannot balanced budget and borrow every year cannot wish for such Luxury


That's the case if you look at in terms of, 'how much can I import?'

If you're always going to import, then (due to the high cost of foreign currency and supplier prices) you're always going to say "cannot wish for such luxury." When attack helicopters cost $50 m each and 178-odd tanks cost $878 m with nothing coming back to our economy, then yes, everything will look like a luxury.

On the other hand, when we invest in the local industry and work to manufacture a design locally, the entire equation changes. Now, the goal is trying to achieve economies of scale to justify the overhead, and for that, you'll need to boost the numbers of your helicopters.

Sounds expensive? Well, it is from a fiscal standpoint, but when you're manufacturing at home, you're actually spending money into your businesses, your labour pool, and so on. So, defence basically serves as a type of economic stimulus instead of a drain. 

So, if you breakout the $50 m; $15 m goes to the local economy to sustain production, $15 m goes to the local economy for maintenance and parts production, and remaining $20 m goes overseas for critical inputs like engines and avionics. If you localize more of the engine and avionics area (e.g., co-fund IP creation with Turkey), then maybe only $10 m goes overseas. 

Finally, you can break orders out across 10, 15 or even 20 years, so acquiring 100 attack and 150 transport helicopters across that timeline isn't as big of an issue.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's the case if you look at in terms of, 'how much can I import?'
> 
> If you're always going to import, then (due to the high cost of foreign currency and supplier prices) you're always going to say "cannot wish for such luxury." When attack helicopters cost $50 m each and 178-odd tanks cost $878 m with nothing coming back to our economy, then yes, everything will look like a luxury.
> 
> On the other hand, when we invest in the local industry and work to manufacture a design locally, the entire equation changes. Now, the goal is trying to achieve economies of scale to justify the overhead, and for that, you'll need to boost the numbers of your helicopters.
> 
> Sounds expensive? Well, it is from a fiscal standpoint, but when you're manufacturing at home, you're actually spending money into your businesses, your labour pool, and so on. So, defence basically serves as a type of economic stimulus instead of a drain.
> 
> So, if you breakout the $50 m; $15 m goes to the local economy to sustain production, $15 m goes to the local economy for maintenance and parts production, and remaining $20 m goes overseas for critical inputs like engines and avionics. If you localize more of the engine and avionics area (e.g., co-fund IP creation with Turkey), then maybe only $10 m goes overseas.
> 
> Finally, you can break orders out across 10, 15 or even 20 years, so acquiring 100 attack and 150 transport helicopters across that timeline isn't as big of an issue.



The real benefit comes when you also start exporting and bringing in foreign exchange.

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## HAIDER

Reichmarshal said:


> just the mi 17 component of the PAA is around 80.
> 40 bell 412 were delivered.
> pumas are around 45
> cobras make around 40+
> fennec/ecureuil around 25
> a sqd of lamas
> around 5 aw139 and 4 mi35
> then theirs the jet ranger and Alouette around 30
> 
> not to forget the fixed-wing component of mushshak, Beechcraft, caravans,y12, citation, gulf stream etc etc..
> and now the new addition of ucav.
> All in all a big force.


In all these equipment, Pakistan still need frontline attack helicopter. Majority of above mention are transport or scouts. Plus, majority Cobras grounded due to parts shortage.


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## T90TankGuy

US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan


Turkey and Pakistan had signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018.



www.dawn.com





WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told _Dawn_.

According to _Bloomberg News_, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”

The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.

The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.

The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.

Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.

The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.

He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.

Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.

The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.

In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.

Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.

In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.

The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.

The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.

US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.

_Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021_



Any idea if this is true?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> The real benefit comes when you also start exporting and bringing in foreign exchange.


I didn't even include exports, but you're 100% correct.

The T625 is available for both military and civilian applications. So, when all Hueys start aging across Africa and Central Asia, we can definitely step in with a new alternative, but without US/EU strings. Since this is one of Turkey's main programs, they'll also market it aggressively. 

In some cases, we can barter, e.g., we give Nigeria helicopters in-exchange for direct access to their oil (and we benefit by solving our energy import bill and save money elsewhere).

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I didn't even include exports, but you're 100% correct.
> 
> The T625 is available for both military and civilian applications. So, when all Hueys start aging across Africa and Central Asia, we can definitely step in with a new alternative, but without US/EU strings.
> 
> In some cases, we can barter, e.g., we give Nigeria helicopters in-exchange for direct access to their oil (and we benefit by solving our energy import bill and save money elsewhere).



Let's not forget, PAC started with the Mushak. The fighter jet JF-17 came many years later.

It would be awesome if we could replicate the success of Mushak/Super Mushak with an entry level helicopter.

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## Trango Towers

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only way it'd work is if we buy into their industry and commit to some kind of 'no re-export' clause for anything we make in Pakistan using their IP. I suspect a big reason why Ukraine was hesitant to transfer any key IP to Turkey was the risk of competition. For Pakistan, the issue has more to do with security and guaranteeing our supply line, not commercial gain; so, we may have a chance.
> 
> Overall, this is a huge reason why we need to invest in IP creation in Pakistan. We might do a few thing well enough where we can trade secrets with others -- talk as peers, not as punks.
> 
> Perhaps take an approach where we co-fund or entirely fund the design and development of an engine in Ukraine, and we then build it turn-key in Pakistan. However, we don't stop them from re-exporting that engine and, likewise, whenever we make sales for say a fighter, helicopter or drone on our end, we source the engine from Ukraine. We emphasize to them that we don't want to be arms dealers, we're just trying to fight for our survival.


Bilal bhai everything you say is correct. However, you have overlooked the Pakistani or let's says Asian psyche .... we are a reactive people. We do not think proactively. This failure is what has handicapped our nation.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Let's not forget, PAC started with the Mushak. The fighter jet JF-17 came many years later.


To illustrate our lack of business sense, no one noticed that we're a recognized leader in training.

So, it's not just the Mushshak, but we can help build the entire training ecosystem from the beginning all the way to basic and intermediate jet training (K-8), LIFT (JF-17B), and advanced training and doctrine (BVR, PGBs, etc). Countries like Azerbaijan, Nigeria, etc aren't going to get real help from the West or Russia in all of these critical areas (because those suppliers don't care).

We can step in with the aircraft, the subsystems (ACMI NG), the training facilities (ACE and CCS), and heck -- if they pay for it -- direct support with matching hardware and capabilities (since the PAF uses the same things).

So, with this knowledge, why aren't we trying to develop a new generation basic trainer to fill in between the Super Mushshak and the JF-17? We have K-8, so why not work on a K-8 NG? Let's say we've walked away from the K-8 (which is OK), then why not develop a turboprop trainer like the Hurkus or Super Tucano? Why not set-up a specialist DACT unit (using Mirage III/5s, F-7PGs or even used MiG-29s from various places) that other countries that contract out?

We could be *the *country for air warfare training, and that alone would add gravitas to the quality and capability of our air men and air force. This is how you *show *your superiority in the area, not tell it via news interviews or speeches.

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## Reichmarshal

HAIDER said:


> In all these equipment, Pakistan still need frontline attack helicopter. Majority of above mention are transport or scouts. Plus, majority Cobras grounded due to parts shortage.



no cobras are grounded, the whole fleet is operational

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To illustrate our lack of business sense, no one noticed that we're a recognized leader in training.
> 
> So, it's not just the Mushshak, but we can help build the entire training ecosystem from the beginning all the way to basic and intermediate jet training (K-8), LIFT (JF-17B), and advanced training and doctrine (BVR, PGBs, etc). Countries like Azerbaijan, Nigeria, etc aren't going to get real help from the West or Russia in all of these critical areas (because those suppliers don't care).
> 
> We can step in with the aircraft, the subsystems (ACMI NG), the training facilities (ACE and CCS), and heck -- if they pay for it -- direct support with matching hardware and capabilities (since the PAF uses the same things).
> 
> So, with this knowledge, why aren't we trying to develop a new generation basic trainer to fill in between the Super Mushshak and the JF-17? We have K-8, so why not work on a K-8 NG? Let's say we've walked away from the K-8 (which is OK), then why not develop a turboprop trainer like the Hurkus or Super Tucano? Why not set-up a specialist DACT unit (using Mirage III/5s, F-7PGs or even used MiG-29s from various places) that other countries that contract out?
> 
> We could be *the *country for air warfare training, and that alone would add gravitas to the quality and capability of our air men and air force. This is how you *show *your superiority in the area, not tell it via news interviews or speeches.



To give credit where credit is due, ACM Sohail Aman did start the Centre for Air Power (if I remember the name correctly). They did hold a few events, but it didn't last long.

Reputations are built in war, and both the Syrian and Azerbaijan wars were our opportunity to build that reputation. It is unfortunate that we are currently limited to Myanmar and Nigeria, and we are limited by the quality of their pilots.

Let us see how things develop with Qatar. But all of this is related to fixed wing. We need to start from scratch in helis, and these concepts can and should be applied in that domain.

The helicopter lesson I took some time ago was in a French heli named Cabri. The owner told me it cost $500000/- and weights only 450 kg! It flies two people, the trainer and the pilot. It is cut throat business involving the use of composites, precision engineering, and obviously a good engine. All of this aligns with our overall goals of becoming an aviation hub.

Unfortunately, PAC's vision is set in the direction of business jets. There seems to be nothing on the horizon for helis.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> To give credit where credit is due, ACM Sohail Aman did start the Centre for Air Power (if I remember the name correctly). They did hold a few events, but it didn't last long.
> 
> Reputations are built in war, and both the Syrian and Azerbaijan wars were our opportunity to build that reputation. It is unfortunate that we are currently limited to Myanmar and Nigeria, and we are limited by the quality of their pilots.
> 
> Let us see how things develop with Qatar. But all of this is related to fixed wing. We need to start from scratch in helis, and these concepts can and should be applied in that domain.
> 
> The helicopter lesson I took some time ago was in a French heli named Cabri. The owner told me it cost $500000/- and weights only 450 kg! It flies two people, the trainer and the pilot. It is cut throat business involving the use of composites, precision engineering, and obviously a good engine. All of this aligns with our overall goals of becoming an aviation hub.
> 
> Unfortunately, PAC's vision is set in the direction of business jets. There seems to be nothing on the horizon for helis.


I'd rather we scrap the business jets and focus on a regional jet airliner. 

Why? 

1. Well, we can set-up a state financing scheme to help local airlines buy a domestic aircraft (and thereby serve the Pakistani travel market instead of letting Pakistanis fly foreign airlines).

2. Own a platform that we can modify and configure as a LRMPA, AEW&C, ISTAR, and ELINT aircraft at will.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd rather we scrap the business jets and focus on a regional jet airliner.
> 
> Why?
> 
> 1. Well, we can set-up a state financing scheme to help local airlines buy a domestic aircraft (and thereby serve the Pakistani travel market instead of letting Pakistanis fly foreign airlines).
> 
> 2. Own a platform that we can modify and configure as a LRMPA, AEW&C, ISTAR, and ELINT aircraft at will.



Sorry, I think I used the wrong word 'business jet'. Maybe commercial jets would have been a better word.

Definitely, we have a huge need for such jets in the local market, and I don't oppose this. But we also have a huge need for helis in various roles and the blindness of top planners is shameful. Equally shameful is the lack of vision that has been shown in this area for decades.

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## khanasifm

Reichmarshal said:


> just the mi 17 component of the PAA is around 80.
> 40 bell 412 were delivered.
> pumas are around 45
> cobras make around 40+
> fennec/ecureuil around 25
> a sqd of lamas
> around 5 aw139 and 4 mi35
> then theirs the jet ranger and Alouette around 30
> 
> not to forget the fixed-wing component of mushshak, Beechcraft, caravans,y12, citation, gulf stream etc etc..
> and now the new addition of ucav.
> All in all a big force.



Beg to differ based on count number of sqn and each sqn in paa usually has 5-10 heli anyway , if your number are good then Gr8 but each airframe has Service life after Which its grounded
Also 28 bell 412 plus 2 were total delivers add crashes what’s left ??

same mistakepaf has 200 plus mirages well total count acquired since 1968 but operation how many ?
Anyway let move on









Pakistan Army Aviation


Helicopters in PAKISTAN Pakistan Army Aviation fleet and news




www.helis.com


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## Ghessan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370361734335229955
Because of the US embargo engine deeds yet to exceed US $ 1.5 billion worth of non-ATAK Program in Pakistan, Pakistan were granted additional time to Turkey by more than 6 months.

Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir

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## mingle

Ghessan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370361734335229955
> Because of the US embargo engine deeds yet to exceed US $ 1.5 billion worth of non-ATAK Program in Pakistan, Pakistan were granted additional time to Turkey by more than 6 months.
> 
> Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir


Another six months means both Pakistan and Turkey will try again for US engines maybe they have a hope this time.

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## Ghessan

mingle said:


> Another six months means both Pakistan and Turkey will try again for US engines maybe they have a hope this time.



don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?


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## Trango Towers

Ghessan said:


> don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?


Apply it under project azm. Home made gunship

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## Khanate

mingle said:


> Another six months means both Pakistan and Turkey will try again for US engines maybe they have a hope this time.




PA could be hoping for some dividends from the Afghan peace process and a possible thaw in US-Turkey relations but let's see how it plays out.

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## Ghessan

Trango Towers said:


> Apply it under project azm. Home made gunship



there should be one under said project but that is still far off a possibility. 

we still have a need for present time.


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## GriffinsRule

This is how it might play out. India will take deliveries of S400. US wont apply sanctions but will instead have to lift sanctions on Turkey. Engine will then be cleared for export. At least that is my guess.

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## Ali_Baba

Have the T-129s all been built for the PA and they are just missing the engines, or have they been partly manufactured? ie if the USA do approve, do they all appear in 6months after engine delivery as they are already made? ( i dont think USA will approve, but trying to see where the programme is..).


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## T-SaGe

GriffinsRule said:


> This is how it might play out. India will take deliveries of S400. US wont apply sanctions but will instead have to lift sanctions on Turkey. Engine will then be cleared for export. At least that is my guess.



However, it should not be forgotten that India is also one of the most important customers of the USA FMS. While the Indian defense industry is turning to US and US-linked European resources on matters it lacks, Pakistan is demanding Chinese support in the same situations. The USA even re-update aviation projects that are 50 years old and sell them to India. Of course, this political difference of Pakistan is not without reason, and the unfair attitude of the US policies towards Pakistan's national interests are main actor. Therefore, even Pakistan's Atak helicopter project is being discussed over the geopolitical conditions of Pakistan (or its supplier) instead of technical competence.



Ali_Baba said:


> Have the T-129s all been built for the PA and they are just missing the engines, or have they been partly manufactured? ie if the USA do approve, do they all appear in 6months after engine delivery as they are already made? ( i dont think USA will approve, but trying to see where the programme is..).


There is no other problem. If export permits were provided by the USA to Pakistan for the engine and transmission, now T-129s would have been flying with Pakistan army tail numbers.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I didn't even include exports, but you're 100% correct.
> 
> The T625 is available for both military and civilian applications. So, when all Hueys start aging across Africa and Central Asia, we can definitely step in with a new alternative, but without US/EU strings. Since this is one of Turkey's main programs, they'll also market it aggressively.
> 
> In some cases, we can barter, e.g., we give Nigeria helicopters in-exchange for direct access to their oil (and we benefit by solving our energy import bill and save money elsewhere).



TAI T-625(Gökbey) is prioritizied as civilian use. For this reason, the project goes along with the EASA certification process so the project schedule has longer phases than projects that continues entirely within the military scope. Indeed, the TSK can order some T-625 to cover the development costs of this project, Of course It will be preferred in other public institutions and ministeries also. But it is necessary to focus on the other helicopter that is planned as 10-12 tons mtow for the main naval and military-utulity platform.

The critical importance of the T-625 in terms of its military-scale repercussions will be the completely indigenous engine set and transmission it carries. Starting from the TEI-TS-1400, Turkey will no longer imports or licensed production of turboshaft engines.

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## araz

Ghessan said:


> don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?


There is no money. This is Turkish sovereign funds loaned to Pak for the project. PAA does not have 1.5 billion lying around. If the Chinese product is still not upto PAA requirements then PAA only has 2 choices. Either wait for the Chinese to come up with a better product at a manageable price or wait for the Turks.
A

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## mingle

Ghessan said:


> don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?


It's turkish line of credit not Pakistani money

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## Polestar 2

mingle said:


> It's turkish line of credit not Pakistani money


A very very big reason why PA chooses T-129K over Z-10. Also why PA willing to drag this long even they know such big issue prop up over the engine available.

Free money vs paid upfront cash.. You dont need a genius to tell u to pick which one.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

A suitable engine for T129 should be ready before 2030.


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## araz

Polestar 2 said:


> A very very big reason why PA chooses T-129K over Z-10. Also why PA willing to drag this long even they know such big issue prop up over the engine available.
> 
> Free money vs paid upfront cash.. You dont need a genius to tell u to pick which one.


I don't like it when people try to deceive others. Your assumptions are incorrect and the Chinese know it. There was a free and fair trial and the T129 won fair and square. The Chinese brothers lent us 3 platforms for one year and PAA tried it extensively and then suggested changes. The off shoot of those changes is the Z1OME which had more than 30 modifications as suggested by PAA.
As far as credit goes the Chinese brothers have had no problems extending credit to PA. VT4 has just been inducted and we are buying drones from the Chinese. However the Z10ME conundrum escapes logic as none of us really know what the situation inside is. 
One thing we have all surmised is the possiblity of local manufacturing of T129 along with the Turks while Z10ME will be an off the shelf buy. What happens now remains to be seen but to say that credit alone is why PAA wanted T129 and keeps waiting for it is illogical and frankly silly.
A

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## HAIDER

araz said:


> I don't like it when people try to deceive others. Your assumptions are incorrect and the Chinese know it. There was a free and fair trial and the T129 won fair and square. The Chinese brothers lent us 3 platforms for one year and PAA tried it extensively and then suggested changes. The off shoot of those changes is the Z1OME which had more than 30 modifications as suggested by PAA.
> As far as credit goes the Chinese brothers have had no problems extending credit to PA. VT4 has just been inducted and we are buying drones from the Chinese. However the Z10ME conundrum escapes logic as none of us really know what the situation inside is.
> One thing we have all surmised is the possiblity of local manufacturing of T129 along with the Turks while Z10ME will be an off the shelf buy. What happens now remains to be seen but to say that credit alone is why PAA wanted T129 and keeps waiting for it is illogical and frankly silly.
> A


absolutely , once had conversation about PAF plane modifications. An ex pilot told me, when Pak adopted Chinese Mig 17, we made approximately 106 modification .

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## Polestar 2

araz said:


> I don't like it when people try to deceive others. Your assumptions are incorrect and the Chinese know it. There was a free and fair trial and the T129 won fair and square. The Chinese brothers lent us 3 platforms for one year and PAA tried it extensively and then suggested changes. The off shoot of those changes is the Z1OME which had more than 30 modifications as suggested by PAA.
> As far as credit goes the Chinese brothers have had no problems extending credit to PA. VT4 has just been inducted and we are buying drones from the Chinese. However the Z10ME conundrum escapes logic as none of us really know what the situation inside is.
> One thing we have all surmised is the possiblity of local manufacturing of T129 along with the Turks while Z10ME will be an off the shelf buy. What happens now remains to be seen but to say that credit alone is why PAA wanted T129 and keeps waiting for it is illogical and frankly silly.
> A


Deceived? Given your logical thinking. After so much saga, PA shall have long purchase Z-10ME long ago even before reaches this stage. And yet, with so much questioning, PA still pursue for T-129K.

There is a limit China can give loan. We have already given loan for 054B frigate, AIP submarine, VT-4 tank and USD 65 billion CPEC. I dont think you expect China to loan for everything for Pakistan. Turkey is smart to target what they want by offering soft loan. While China this time is more willing to accept cash and payment from Pakistan than loan again.


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## araz

Polestar 2 said:


> Deceived? Given your logical thinking. After so much saga, PA shall have long purchase Z-10ME long ago even before reaches this stage. And yet, with so much questioning, PA still pursue for T-129K.
> 
> There is a limit China can give loan. We have already given loan for 054B frigate, AIP submarine, VT-4 tank and USD 65 billion CPEC. I dont think you expect China to loan for everything for Pakistan. Turkey is smart to target what they want by offering soft loan. While China this time is more willing to accept cash and payment from Pakistan than loan again.


Again I am not denying the figures but the deception is in downgrading a product just to say they have only won because they have offered a loan. You have excluded the first step of the outcome of the trials. 
As to the Chinese they have loaned Pakistan many a times and adding a billion more would not have caused much trouble to them. The problem lies elsewhere and that is where your deception comes in. Do not show someone else's produce down just because you have yet to produce a comparable one.
One another note if the Z10 was such a complete product why did the ME have to be introduced so quickly. You have then sent it straight for trials to Pakistan. Most military sales are based on credit so what are you expecting?
A

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## lcloo

Delete


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## That Guy

GriffinsRule said:


> This is how it might play out. India will take deliveries of S400. US wont apply sanctions but will instead have to lift sanctions on Turkey. Engine will then be cleared for export. At least that is my guess.


Just 1 problem with that: Nations, especially super powers don't care about being hypocritical. Its all about national interests. When the time comes, if it comes at all, the Americans won't hesitate to set a double standard, because its in their interests to do so. Indeed, if any nation was in their shoes, and they'd do so as well.

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## araz

That Guy said:


> Just 1 problem with that: Nations, especially super powers don't care about being hypocritical. Its all about national interests. When the time comes, if it comes at all, the Americans won't hesitate to set a double standard, because its in their interests to do so. Indeed, if any nation was in their shoes, and they'd do so as well.


I think there is a situation which the US might play out. It might say that the S400 deal with Turkey was a problem because Turkey was a pargner in the F35 programme. In India's case they do/not have the same leverage as India is not buying the F35. It therefore will continue to sanction Turkey but might giv3 India some reprieve. In any case the US is likely to draw a blank if it tries sanctioning India as barring a few items India does not have any big ticket US items.
A

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## Bossman

HAIDER said:


> absolutely , once had conversation about PAF plane modifications. An ex pilot told me, when Pak adopted Chinese Mig 17, we made approximately 106 modification .


Not the 17 bu the 19 I.e F6. Modifications included American Sidewinders.

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## maverick1977

can engines be procured from a different OEM?


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

I think a domestic Turkish engine for T129 may be possible in the coming decades but it will be difficult. It took China decades to make WS-10 and that was after China made a number of domestic jet engines. Turkey has no experience making engine.

In the meantime it is prudent for Pakistan to buy WZ-10. WZ-10 has helmet display. T129 don't.


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## eagleeye

You mean that

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## HAIDER

Bossman said:


> Not the 17 bu the 19 I.e F6. Modifications included American Sidewinders.


May be i am mixing with 17 or 19 ...


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## That Guy

araz said:


> I think there is a situation which the US might play out. It might say that the S400 deal with Turkey was a problem because Turkey was a pargner in the F35 programme. In India's case they do/not have the same leverage as India is not buying the F35. It therefore will continue to sanction Turkey but might giv3 India some reprieve. In any case the US is likely to draw a blank if it tries sanctioning India as barring a few items India does not have any big ticket US items.
> A


Just to clarify, buying any advanced Russian military system is against US arms sanctions, so they'd be breaking their own rules to sign a waiver for India, or ignore sanctioning India.

But yeah, you make a good point.

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## Ali_Baba

It is a shame about the engines for the T-129, i guess that will be lesson for Turkey to make sure all its programmes are ITAR free for the future.

Engines are the achilles heel of most military programmes and even China at times struggles with engines. It is a complicated issue, but one that Turkey can address.

I suspect, that PA will want to wait for the T-129s. Drones hae changed the equation and PA has bought quite a few of them recently, so i think they can afford to wait.

This is not about the Z-10 not being good enough, it is about military diversity and therefore capability. Standardisation and diversity have their own military benefits and issues. Pakistan "wants" to "develop" Turkey as a military weapons supplier by actively getting involved in procuring some of them.

Yes, China can provide everything, that is not the issue here.

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## FuturePAF

Do we know what the overall Pakistan army attack helicopter requirements are (capabilities and numbers)? And if so, can any of those requirements be met with UCAVs or lighter helicopters or some other strategy?

considering Pakistan already operates the Z-9 for the navy, procuring a small number (perhaps 12) of Z-19 with the radar above the rotors could be a good stop-gap measure to fill a scouting role and not require a completely new logistical chain to maintain, while stealthy UCAVs fill the strike role.

if the MMW radar is an AESA radar, it can also be used to carry out electronic attack missions on enemy forces, frying their electronics, and quickly RTB. In this role it carry loitering munitions to carry out electronic attacks from multiple angles, degrading the enemies ability to fight.

If the price (an overall maintenance cost) is not that much different between the Z-19 and Z-10ME, then the Z-10ME should be acquired but with a MMW radar on top to give it that extra capability





__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.


FuturePAF said:


> Do we know what the overall Pakistan army attack helicopter requirements are (capabilities and numbers)? And if so, can any of those requirements be met with UCAVs or lighter helicopters or some other strategy?
> 
> considering Pakistan already operates the Z-9 for the navy, procuring a small number (perhaps 12) of Z-19 with the radar above the rotors could be a good stop-gap measure to fill a scouting role and not require a completely new logistical chain to maintain, while stealthy UCAVs fill the strike role.
> 
> if the MMW radar is an AESA radar, it can also be used to carry out electronic attack missions on enemy forces, frying their electronics, and quickly RTB. In this role it carry loitering munitions to carry out electronic attacks from multiple angles, degrading the enemies ability to fight.
> 
> If the price (an overall maintenance cost) is not that much different between the Z-19 and Z-10ME, then the Z-10ME should be acquired but with a MMW radar on top to give it that extra capability
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com



Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.

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## MMM-E

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.



Turkish TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in 2024 for mass production, even its superior to American LHTEC CTS800


*TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine*

TEI-TS1400 engine was designed for the T625 multirole Helicopter and T629 Attack Helicopter


T-129 Attack Helicopter used LHTEC CTS800 turboshaft engines that have 1,373 shaft horsepower each, created jointly by Rolls-Royce and Honeywell

İndigenous engine TEI TS-1400 which produces 1,660 horsepower

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## Ali_Baba

Has Turkey built all 30 Helicopters already? ie are they waiting for shipping subject to the last step of export approval ?

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Ali_Baba said:


> Has Turkey built all 30 Helicopters already? ie are they waiting for shipping subject to the last step of export approval ?



There is no export approval and won't be one. Turkey is at odds with the US about S-400 which triggered CAATSA.

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## Ali_Baba

Tai Hai Chen said:


> There is no export approval and won't be one. Turkey is at odds with the US about S-400 which triggered CAATSA.



That does NOT my answer my question !!!!!!!!!! I am asking about the current state of the manufacturing process of the PA T-129s. That is all.

ie are they sitting in some field somewhere like the AH-1Zs ????


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## ZeEa5KPul

MMM-E said:


> Turkish TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in 2024 for mass production


What stage is this engine in? Has it been test flown?

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## FuturePAF

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.
> 
> 
> Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.



but can it perform as well as the T-129 in hot and high altitude conditions. Even the American Apache until its recent engine upgrades had limited capabilities in the high mountains of Afghanistan. They had to go through valleys in places and not just over mountains, adding crucial minutes to get to a battle, which could have been the difference between losing troops or arriving in time to protect them.

Btw, here is where the Apache’s development is going. Can the Z-19 or Z-10ME match it. The Turks want to offer the ATAK helicopter as a follow on after the 30 T-129. Is there a heavier Chinese attack helicopter under development after the Z-10ME, similar to the Apache?









Here's The Army's Plan For Making Its Apaches More Capable At Sea And Deadlier Overall


The Version 6 update package will also improve the gunship's ability to tag-team with drones and collect and share various sensor data.




www.thedrive.com





Besides firepower, survivability and mobility, we need to look at helicopters being hovering electronic warfare platforms that are a vital link to guide unmanned systems in the employment of EW and attacks on datalinks and electronic networks.

Here is a good video at the capabilities of the Apache, with the second half being very informative from the manufacturer. You see the early signs of the shift from COIN to EW operations. These are the capabilities, which in addition to the kinetic capabilities need to be part of the PA’s future helicopters.






And here is one of the contenders for the future US army attack helicopter requirement, where these capabilities are elaborated upon.

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## mingle

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.
> 
> 
> Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.


From front it's look like Tiger but amazing load it carries

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## SQ8

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.
> 
> 
> Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.


The Z-19 is still limited by its Z-9 or rather Aerospatile Dauphin underpinnings - the T-129 has the advantage of being from the Mangusta which was purpose built as an attack helicopter.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

eagleeye said:


> You mean that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 724343



Helmet mounted display is nothing new. DJI sells it for like 500 bucks used on hobby drones.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> Do we know what the overall Pakistan army attack helicopter requirements are (capabilities and numbers)? And if so, can any of those requirements be met with UCAVs or lighter helicopters or some other strategy?
> 
> considering Pakistan already operates the Z-9 for the navy, procuring a small number (perhaps 12) of Z-19 with the radar above the rotors could be a good stop-gap measure to fill a scouting role and not require a completely new logistical chain to maintain, while stealthy UCAVs fill the strike role.
> 
> if the MMW radar is an AESA radar, it can also be used to carry out electronic attack missions on enemy forces, frying their electronics, and quickly RTB. In this role it carry loitering munitions to carry out electronic attacks from multiple angles, degrading the enemies ability to fight.
> 
> If the price (an overall maintenance cost) is not that much different between the Z-19 and Z-10ME, then the Z-10ME should be acquired but with a MMW radar on top to give it that extra capability
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


IIRC we never heard a stated requirement. However, the PAA did officially plan on having 60 AH-1F/S in the 1990s (they ordered 40 AH-1F/S around the time the PAF ordered the 60 F-16s). However, not only did the Pressler Amendment scuttle that order, but we don't actually know if the PAA intended for more.

Then based on the AH-1Z and T129 orders, they were aiming for 45 new attack helicopters, but these were twin-engine types that were substantially more capable than the AH-1F/S. Even with a 1:1 swap-out, the PA was adding a lot of capability in terms of range, payload, and even tech (e.g., the T129s were coming with DRFM-based ECM!).

I think 45 attack helicopters -- i.e., 15 'heavies' (8-10-ton) and 30 'light' (5-6-tons) -- was likely the floor, and 90 (i.e., 30 heavies and 60 lights) the ceiling.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the last stated requirement was 60 AH-1S/F in the late 1980s (i.e., 20 in the 1980s plus 40 more in the 1990s).
> 
> Based on the AH-1Z and T129 orders, they were aiming for 45 new attack helicopters, but these were twin-engine types that were substantially more capable than the AH-1F/S in terms of range, payload, endurance, etc.
> 
> So ... 45 to 60 is probably a good bet.



Considering the PA looks interested in sticking with the T-129, Do you think the PA would consider rebuilding/modernizing their current AH-1F/S fleet as a stop gap (and eventually transfer it to the FC) and/or some other stop-gap option? Is the role of these helicopters primarily anti-armor and if so, couldn’t some other system also fill the gap in the interim; some kind of stealthy UCAVs, for example?


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think 45 attack helicopters -- i.e., 15 'heavies' (8-10-ton) and 30 'light' (5-6-tons) -- was likely the floor, and 90 (i.e., 30 heavies and 60 lights) the ceiling.



The heavies can be fulfilled by attack version of Z-20.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> Considering the PA looks interested in sticking with the T-129, Do you think the PA would consider rebuilding/modernizing their current AH-1F/S fleet as a stop gap (and eventually transfer it to the FC) and/or some other stop-gap option? Is the role of these helicopters primarily anti-armor and if so, couldn’t some other system also fill the gap in the interim; UCAVs for example?


I think the 'urgency' of a new attack helicopter might have slipped with the relative drawdown of COIN/CT ops. So, the PAA might not be in a rush, and is willing to wait for a fresh crop of aircraft to evaluate, e.g., a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.


I believe the Z-10ME is sufficiently "improved". What more do you want on it, space lasers?

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the 'urgency' of a new attack helicopter might have slipped with the relative drawdown of COIN/CT ops. So, the PAA might not be in a rush, and is willing to wait for a fresh crop of aircraft to evaluate, e.g., a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.



It’s good to know the need isn’t there as much any more


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## SQ8

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Helmet mounted display is nothing new. DJI sells it for like 500 bucks used on hobby drones.


I would guess you have no differentiation between FPV goggles and what goes into a military HMD - that’s like saying pot stickers are the same as dumplings.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

SQ8 said:


> I would guess you have no differentiation between FPV goggles and what goes into a military HMD - that’s like saying pot stickers are the same as dumplings.



Actually the DJI helmet mounted display is more advanced considering it uses Wi-Fi rather than cable.






compared to

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## Ghessan

araz said:


> There is no money. This is Turkish sovereign funds loaned to Pak for the project. PAA does not have 1.5 billion lying around. If the Chinese product is still not upto PAA requirements then PAA only has 2 choices. Either wait for the Chinese to come up with a better product at a manageable price or wait for the Turks.
> A


what i want to say is, Pakistan is ready to take a loan with pay back at agreed terms, which means Pak Army is ready for it. 
when we debate AH1Z were held to be released if we pay for them, then can we ask for the loan from the US likewise?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

TEI boss Prof Dr Mahmut Aksit, a former VP of Turbo-engine R&D group in GE, is imaging TEI after GE that owns 46% of TEI to begin with. Basically, GE formed TEI in 1986 to assemble F-16 engines in Turkey. So, turbo-prop, turbo-shaft and turbo-fan engine projects are progressing in the best engineering principles, practices, reliability, quality and ethics possible....

If folks have trust in GE, Rolls-Royce etc. to produce aero engines they should have trust in TEI too.....

TEI is one of the largest critical rotational turbo-engine parts designers suppliers for GE, Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce, Saffron etc. in the both civil and military sectors....

*Prof Mahmut Aksit is the son of Prof Jevat Aksit, one of the top scholars of Islamic jurisprudence (_Fikh_) in Turkey
**He has survived several assassination attempts, including poisoning, on his life​

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## SQ8

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Actually the DJI helmet mounted display is more advanced considering it uses Wi-Fi rather than cable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> compared to


No it isn’t - The cable is there for a purpose, unlike wireless signals which can suffer electronic interference that cause anything from failure to latency issues, cables are shielded and have redundancies built in.

That DJI FPv only requires me to send a wideband high power squelch and that customer is blind - meanwhile the purpose built HMD has shielded electronics and cables to even potentially survive a EMP from a nuclear explosion.



Same reason why military radios today still sound like someone is squeezing nuts versus normal cellular transmission - there are layers of robust compression and encryption designed to weather the most difficult of electronic environment

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## wasileo80

Zarvan said:


> It's USA Turkey clash not Pakistan USA clash. F 16 is a different case.


Its purely US-Pakistan tussel. AH-1Z is a prime example. US knew that Pakistan will not pay from own pocket so they put this condition on the table to stop the delivery as they didnt have any other valid excuse at that time. Same happened with 8 F-16s Block 52. And both the deals affected by strong Indian lobby but they played very well that they successfuly showed that its matter of Payment terms but real reason was obvious.

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## SD 10

wasileo80 said:


> Its purely US-Pakistan tussel. AH-1Z is a prime example. US knew that Pakistan will not pay from own pocket so they put this condition on the table to stop the delivery as they didnt have any other valid excuse at that time. Same happened with 8 F-16s Block 52. And both the deals affected by strong Indian lobby but they played very well that they successfuly showed that its matter of Payment terms but real reason was obvious.


fan boys will disagree with you!


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## wasileo80

Bossman said:


> Not the 17 bu the 19 I.e F6. Modifications included American Sidewinders.


mig-17 also aka FT-5.


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## wasileo80

SD 10 said:


> fan boys will disagree with you!


Everyone have right to disagree. But reality should be check mate and alternative decision should be in place without delay.


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## eagleeye

Here is part of the Interview from temel kotil president of tai regarding t129 (google Translation)

Presidential Spokesperson İbrahim Kalın said, "The USA has prevented the war helicopter we planned to make to Pakistan." After his statement, Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Demir stated that an additional six-month period was taken from Pakistan for export. While all these developments are taking place, Prof. Dr. Kotil informed that the tests of the domestic engine (TS1400 derivative) produced by TUSAŞ Motor Industry TEI are continuing in the T-129 Atak helicopter.

Prof. Dr. Kotil said that the engine to be used in the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter Atak-2, which was designed with domestic capabilities and capabilities, will come from Ukraine; He said that the platform will weigh 11 tons, be twin-engined and can carry 1500 kilograms of ammunition.

Turkey Attack-2 is yet to be used in engine size have also noted Kotil, while the T625 Gökbey three helicopters will be delivered next year and March 18 ceremony in Çanakkale in 2023 that made the flight, he said.









ATAK-2 Apache'den Daha İyi Olacak - C4 Defence


Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil, Habertürk kanalında yayınlanan Teke Tek programına konuk oldu.




www.c4defence.com

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## Trango Towers

GriffinsRule said:


> This is how it might play out. India will take deliveries of S400. US wont apply sanctions but will instead have to lift sanctions on Turkey. Engine will then be cleared for export. At least that is my guess.


I just hope pakistan learns not to buy anything with even an American bolt in it.

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## Yasser76

*Pakistan extends delayed T129 helo deal with Turkey — again*










Pakistan extends delayed T129 helo deal with Turkey — again


A diplomatic row between the United States and Turkey is continuing to jeopardize a planned procurement by Pakistan.




www.defensenews.com

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

eagleeye said:


> will come from Ukraine



That's why China was trying to buy Motor Sich to prevent sale of engine to Turkey to compete with Z-10.


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## araz

Ghessan said:


> what i want to say is, Pakistan is ready to take a loan with pay back at agreed terms, which means Pak Army is ready for it.
> when we debate AH1Z were held to be released if we pay for them, then can we ask for the loan from the US likewise?


Re the AH1Z the agreement was that part of the money will be adjusted against CSF. The Senate negated that and instead we were asked to fork the whole money out. So PAklands walked away. So there is a subtle difference between the 2.
A

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## HAIDER

eagleeye said:


> Here is part of the Interview from temel kotil president of tai regarding t129 (google Translation)
> 
> Presidential Spokesperson İbrahim Kalın said, "The USA has prevented the war helicopter we planned to make to Pakistan." After his statement, Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Demir stated that an additional six-month period was taken from Pakistan for export. While all these developments are taking place, Prof. Dr. Kotil informed that the tests of the domestic engine (TS1400 derivative) produced by TUSAŞ Motor Industry TEI are continuing in the T-129 Atak helicopter.
> 
> Prof. Dr. Kotil said that the engine to be used in the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter Atak-2, which was designed with domestic capabilities and capabilities, will come from Ukraine; He said that the platform will weigh 11 tons, be twin-engined and can carry 1500 kilograms of ammunition.
> 
> Turkey Attack-2 is yet to be used in engine size have also noted Kotil, while the T625 Gökbey three helicopters will be delivered next year and March 18 ceremony in Çanakkale in 2023 that made the flight, he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ATAK-2 Apache'den Daha İyi Olacak - C4 Defence
> 
> 
> Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil, Habertürk kanalında yayınlanan Teke Tek programına konuk oldu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.c4defence.com


Turkey recently procure drone engines , now helicopter engines from Ukraine. Good deal.


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## Gripen9

Bossman said:


> Not the 17 bu the 19 I.e F6. Modifications included American Sidewinders.


as well as Martin Baker Ejection seats and Gondola conformal fuel tanks.

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## Deltadart

Marines Reportedly 'Decommissioning' AH-1Zs As They Shutter Helicopter Operations In Hawaii (Updated)


The Marines say ending helicopter operations in Hawaii will help make the service more flexible in the Pacific, especially in any conflict with China.




www.thedrive.com


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## FuturePAF

Considering the delays are political and not technical, and the largest bilateral issue is the situation in Afghanistan, we might see softening or hardening on the issue depending on what happens in Afghanistan over the next few months.

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## Yasser76

FuturePAF said:


> Considering the delays are political and not technical, and the largest bilateral issue is the situation in Afghanistan, we might see softening or hardening on the issue depending on what happens in Afghanistan over the next few months.



Unsure if Pak wants to play that card over a few engines, it's a pretty big card to play and we wont have anything much left after we use it.

Best thing now is to forget about the T-129 and move on

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## FuturePAF

Yasser76 said:


> Unsure if Pak wants to play that card over a few engines, it's a pretty big card to play and we wont have anything much left after we use it.
> 
> Best thing now is to forget about the T-129 and move on



Moving on from a T-129 with an American engine, sure, no one plans to wait. But the PAA knows will have to live what is procured for decades to come, so it can’t compromise on quality. Hence the extension given to the Turks to find an alternative option.

But in the off chance relations change, we all know they won’t turn down free stuff or the release of these engines. The PAA doesn’t want to lose time in its modernization.

Also the comment was an observation, that if the general relationship improves or deteriorates will have the most bearing on this kind of procurement. Nothing much can be expected, as it is linked to the general relationship. Pakistan won’t do anything special, IMHO, to get the engines and is therefore planning for the Turks to find an alternative engine just in case.

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## airmarshal

That Guy said:


> Just to clarify, buying any advanced Russian military system is against US arms sanctions, so they'd be breaking their own rules to sign a waiver for India, or ignore sanctioning India.
> 
> But yeah, you make a good point.



The American sanctions are about its allies buying Russian equipment. Turkey being a NATO member has all authority under NATO agreement to buy its weapons from whichever source. Greece and Bulgaria have S-300. They are NATO partners. USA has been trying to be difficult with Turkey for various geopolitical reasons. Americans can look the other way, easily. Also, S400 is quite capable system and it cuts into potential Patriot sales and thats one of the reasons for these sanctions.

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## airmarshal

araz said:


> Re the AH1Z the agreement was that part of the money will be adjusted against CSF. The Senate negated that and instead we were asked to fork the whole money out. So PAklands walked away. So there is a subtle difference between the 2.
> A



By the way, Americans still owe us CSF but as you know how they behave, we will get neither the money nor the helicopters.

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## Gripen9

airmarshal said:


> The American sanctions are about its allies buying Russian equipment. Turkey being a NATO member has all authority under NATO agreement to buy its weapons from whichever source. Greece and Bulgaria have S-300. They are NATO partners. USA has been trying to be difficult with Turkey for various geopolitical reasons. Americans can look the other way, easily. Also, S400 is quite capable system and it cuts into potential Patriot sales and thats one of the reasons for these sanctions.


Didn't Turkey opt for S400 after being denied Patriots?

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## Trango Towers

Gripen9 said:


> Didn't Turkey opt for S400 after being denied Patriots?


Yes....and the white devil's didn't like the fact that Turkey took care of its own needs

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## araz

airmarshal said:


> By the way, Americans still owe us CSF but as you know how they behave, we will get neither the money nor the helicopters.


Unless we get them by their Cahonas.
A


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## nomi007

Turbomeca Makila is best alternative engine for T-129.


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## Gripen9

nomi007 said:


> Turbomeca Makila is best alternative engine for T-129.


French will not allow their engines on Turkish helos. If you haven't noticed that relationship is not on best footing these days. 
A viable option can be _Rolls-Royce_ Gem 1004 turboshafts that powered the original A129 Mangusta.


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## T-SaGe

Gripen9 said:


> A viable option can be _Rolls-Royce_ Gem 1004 turboshafts that powered the original A129 Mangusta.


The engine that fails to meet the performance requirements and therefore causing whole helicopter to be revised again.

Right now, the alternatives are:
1a. Pakistan and Turkish governments could show theirs serious by putting pressure on the USA for accelerates the senate decision and paperwork .
1b. TEI-TS-1400 engine integration activities could start on T129 as soon as possible without waiting other certification processes over T-626.
1c. Whether it is Ivchenko or other, a suitable engine for the platform could identified and certified as soon as possible.
1d. Whether it is R&R or other european supplier, Pakistan can request the integration of the designated engine to the T129, taking the guarantee that there will be no obstacle through the US subsystem suppliers from these companies.

2a. Pakistan could supply of limited number of used helicopters as stop-gap solution.
2b. Canceling the program altogether and turning to Chinese or Russian suppliers.

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## Gripen9

T-SaGe said:


> The engine that fails to meet the performance requirements and therefore causing whole helicopter to be revised again.
> 
> Right now, the alternatives are:
> 1a. Pakistan and Turkish governments could show theirs serious by putting pressure on the USA for accelerates the senate decision and paperwork of FMS's Honeywell&RR engine export.
> 1b. TEI-TS-1400 engine integration activities could start on T129 as soon as possible without waiting other certification processes over T-626.
> 1c. Whether it is Ivchenko or other, a suitable engine for the platform could identified and certified as soon as possible.
> 1d. Whether it is R&R or other european supplier, Pakistan can request the integration of the designated engine to the T129, taking the guarantee that there will be no obstacle through the US subsystem suppliers from these companies.
> 
> 2a. Pakistan could supply of limited number of used helicopters as stop-gap solution.
> 2b. Canceling the program altogether and turning to Chinese or Russian suppliers.


I was merely replying to the poster as to why Turbomeca will not be a source for Turkish helos.

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## CHI RULES

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the 'urgency' of a new attack helicopter might have slipped with the relative drawdown of COIN/CT ops. So, the PAA might not be in a rush, and is willing to wait for a fresh crop of aircraft to evaluate, e.g., a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.


Service life of Pak Cobra has already passed it shall be a great gamble or blunder I may dare to say if attack helicopters of some new version are not obtained in a year or two. The peace between India and Pak is very fragile. PA should not ignore attack helicopters as existing fleet is vintage and may prove to be of much lesser use in case of any major conflict.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CHI RULES said:


> Service life of Pak Cobra has already passed it shall be a great gamble or blunder I may dare to say if attack helicopters of some new version are not obtained in a year or two. The peace between India and Pak is very fragile. PA should not ignore attack helicopters as existing fleet is vintage and may prove to be of much lesser use in case of any major conflict.


The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.

Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?

If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).

Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in *2008 (I was 17-18)*. 

Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been *13 years* since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.







This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.



> Denel is marketing its goods to Pakistan quite publically, just look at IDEAS 2006 & 2008. I am not referring to the AH-2 Rooivalk, but a newer design simply called "New Attack Helicopter". Please read its profile (LINK).








Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion


just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...



defence.pk






@JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.
> 
> Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?
> 
> If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).
> 
> Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in *2008 (I was 17-18)*.
> 
> Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been *13 years* since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.
> 
> View attachment 725217
> 
> 
> This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion
> 
> 
> just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule




Yes all this talk of urgent need is mostly hogwash. War seems to be continuously imminent per some posters.
We also have no idea if the airframe life of the cobras we have or how much is left. PA Pumas have been active for a very long time too and I'd dare say flown more than the cobras. PA, like the PAF will be flying the aircraft until they know it's unsafe to do so. 
As far as T129 goes, PA was initially going to get 15 by 2015 but the floods put a stop to that. I'm actually glad they are not rushing to buy something but instead are willing to wait for a solution and see how things pan out. 
For the heavies, I have a feeling they will wait for the AH-1Zs, even if we don't like to hear that. There are no alternatives outside of US and Russia for that class of helicopters yet. If ATAK II is successful, and that's a big if, it's still at least a decade away from FOC, and user acceptance trials to eventual contract signing and delivery.
The TV3-117 engine is a natural alternative to US engines and it's variant already powers the heavy Mi-28 and Ka-50. So in essence there is little work to be done on the engine itself and mostly just the design and development of the ATAK II that needs to be finalized.

On a separate note, the original RR engines that equipped the A129 Mangusta were very underpowered and are not an option to replace the US engine

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## Thorough Pro

Buy the Russian attack helos


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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> Buy the Russian attack helos


Do you think you will get them? Who will finance them and how will the known Russian lazy sipply chain be dealt with? All valid questions that need answering.
A


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## Thorough Pro

Yes we will get them. We will finance them exactly the same way we financed the Turkish ones.



araz said:


> Do you think you will get them? Who will finance them and how will the known Russian lazy sipply chain be dealt with? All valid questions that need answering.
> A


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

araz said:


> Do you think you will get them? Who will finance them and how will the known Russian lazy sipply chain be dealt with? All valid questions that need answering.
> A



Mi-28 Havoc is pretty popular in Iraq. It was selected over Apache.







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372263199622496267

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## ARMalik

Some of the operational needs of the Helicopters have been taken over by UAVs. Although Hels are still important, but I have to say, Pakistan Army played its cards very poorly. Can't believe they (Pakistan, Turkey, etc) still have to beg every dic.k and harry for a suitable heli engine. Such a shame.


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## lcloo

Looking at the comparative data, you would understand why Pakistan still prefer to wait for Turkey to deliver it's promise on engine development. T-129 which is derived from A-129 has beefed up with different engine of 2X the original engine power on A-129. 

The climb rate of T129 is only behind AH-1Z and AH-64, which is quite impressive and suuits well in high mountain regions.

Then there is the warm relationship of Islam brotherhood between Turkey and Pakistan that matters a lot.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

ARMalik said:


> Some of the operational needs of the Helicopters have been taken over by UAVs. Although Hels are still important, but I have to say, Pakistan Army played its cards very poorly. Can't believe they (Pakistan, Turkey, etc) still have to beg every dic.k and harry for a suitable heli engine. Such a shame.



They can probably go with Chinese unmanned attack helicopter.

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## CHI RULES

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.
> 
> Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?
> 
> If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).
> 
> Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in *2008 (I was 17-18)*.
> 
> Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been *13 years* since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.
> 
> View attachment 725217
> 
> 
> This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion
> 
> 
> just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule


Sir ideas should be realistic, the approach you are suggesting is same as Pakistan trying to do with T129 by entering in manufacturing process but ground realities should also be addressed with virtually limit aviation resources specifically related to limited overhaul it may take Pakistan even with JV to relize whole scenario at least 6-7 years if started now. On other hand now one may say that Pak has capable stuff with assumption of J10C induction in PAF, induction of long range ASHMS and CMs in PN and in case of ground forces they are always much better armed. However fact is that Pak Army Aviation officials views are on record that our Cobras have passed their useful life, even refurbished ones are also expensive to operate and keep them active, There have been some accidents reported in near past. They lack modern defensive capabilities and low service ceiling issues are there. 

As per ground realities PA should go for some acquisitions at earliest even as news are there for extension of delivery time span up to six months by PA for T129 delivery. If deliveries start should be well enough on other side we should consider bitter realities of Past also as Indians were able to breach Pak air space effectively and launched spice missiles which by grace of Almighty remained unexploded meanwhile at least we should have some sort of AD on vulnerable points i.e short to medium range SAMs backed by some modernized anti air craft guns. We have faced some serious losses in the past let me start with Operation Trident, Salala incident after which Pak transported some AD resources near Afghan border etc. Minimal required effective resources should be there to respond even in defensive posture. Hope you understand my point.

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## Reichmarshal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.
> 
> Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?
> 
> If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).
> 
> Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in *2008 (I was 17-18)*.
> 
> Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been *13 years* since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.
> 
> View attachment 725217
> 
> 
> This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion
> 
> 
> just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule



You are spot with the fact that we are starring down the barrel vis a via india. But having said that we have very serious issues and limitations imposed on us in the 10 years of democracy post mush that destroyed our eco. brick by brick.
So much so that when nawaz left we were on the brink of bankruptcy. 
both ppp n noon league in their respective tenures placed roadblocks in our local assembly which almost killed our local programs.

so coming from that to the present it is a miracle that we have been able to maintain a statue queue/ parity with the indians.

All in all things aren't as simple or straight forward as they seem

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## truthfollower

SQ8 said:


> Same reason why military radios today still sound like someone is squeezing nuts versus normal cellular transmission - there are layers of robust compression and encryption designed to weather the most difficult of electronic environment


wow i always have this question in mind why military radio sounds so noisy. And don't you think special requirement for military equipment/technology is very thin now? As during operation swift retort when abhinand was captured you can hear in the background solider saying "sir i am going to send you video on whatsapp." Don't you think it is better to create technology for civilians and also use it for military applications too? Bigger market


----------



## yacht07



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## Introvert

*TAI will equip its T129s with Ukrainian engines*

Pakistan has granted an additional 6-month delay to the Turkish helicopter manufacturer
TAI. Indeed, since 2018, its T129 has been selected by the Pakistan Army Aviation (equivalent to the ALAT) to replace the AH-1F Cobra, and this at a rate of 30 units for a market of 1.5 billion dollars.
The T-129 is a Turkish licensed production of the
Italian A129 Mangusta combat helicopter .
Modernized locally, however, it benefits from the American-made LHTEC800 turbine engine, and since 2015, the United States has refused to export the said engine outside Turkey, making it impossible to fulfill the contract.
Pakistan has been lenient towards its partner, as other nations such as Qatar and the Philippines have already canceled their contracts.

*Ukrainian engine*
This embargo against Turkey has therefore forced its manufacturers to find alternative solutions to replace American engines.
Ankara thus turned to Ukraine, which has real know-how in this type of engine.
TAI announced on March 15, 2021 the signing of an agreement with an undisclosed Ukrainian consortium for the manufacture of engines with a power of 2300
horsepower.
But it would actually be Motor Sich.
These new turbines will also be fitted to the ATAK-2, the big brother of the T129 which is currently under development.

This action carried out for several months by Turkish diplomacy will allow Turkey to be able to export the ATAK-2 and T129 without hindrance.









Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan – Turquie News


Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan TAI équipera ses T129 avec des moteurs ukrainiens Délai de 6 mois Le Pakistan a accordé un délai supplémentaire de 6 mois à l'hélicoptériste Turc TAI. En effet,…




www.turquie-news.com

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Introvert said:


> *TAI will equip its T129s with Ukrainian engines*
> 
> Pakistan has granted an additional 6-month delay to the Turkish helicopter manufacturer
> TAI. Indeed, since 2018, its T129 has been selected by the Pakistan Army Aviation (equivalent to the ALAT) to replace the AH-1F Cobra, and this at a rate of 30 units for a market of 1.5 billion dollars.
> The T-129 is a Turkish licensed production of the
> Italian A129 Mangusta combat helicopter .
> Modernized locally, however, it benefits from the American-made LHTEC800 turbine engine, and since 2015, the United States has refused to export the said engine outside Turkey, making it impossible to fulfill the contract.
> Pakistan has been lenient towards its partner, as other nations such as Qatar and the Philippines have already canceled their contracts.
> 
> *Ukrainian engine*
> This embargo against Turkey has therefore forced its manufacturers to find alternative solutions to replace American engines.
> Ankara thus turned to Ukraine, which has real know-how in this type of engine.
> TAI announced on March 15, 2021 the signing of an agreement with an undisclosed Ukrainian consortium for the manufacture of engines with a power of 2300
> horsepower.
> But it would actually be Motor Sich.
> These new turbines will also be fitted to the ATAK-2, the big brother of the T129 which is currently under development.
> 
> This action carried out for several months by Turkish diplomacy will allow Turkey to be able to export the ATAK-2 and T129 without hindrance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan – Turquie News
> 
> 
> Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan TAI équipera ses T129 avec des moteurs ukrainiens Délai de 6 mois Le Pakistan a accordé un délai supplémentaire de 6 mois à l'hélicoptériste Turc TAI. En effet,…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.turquie-news.com



No way the US allows Ukraine to export engine to Turkey. Turkey's defense industry is under CAATSA sanction due to S-400 purchase. US pressured Ukraine to nationalize Motor Sich, which will be fully under American control.

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## eagleeye

Tai Hai Chen said:


> No way the US allows Ukraine to export engine to Turkey. Turkey's defense industry is under CAATSA sanction due to S-400 purchase. US pressured Ukraine to nationalize Motor Sich, which will be fully under American control.


Not this shit again you are spreading false information . how comes that we are still producing t129 chopper and manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-4N engines under licence for our army . and we still manufacturing Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk utility helicopter under licence .Production of the type's General Electric T700 turboshafts will also be localised through Eskisehir-based TEI. The production of this engine is in progress.








TEI - T700-TEI-701D







tei.com.tr

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

eagleeye said:


> Not this shit again you are spreading false information . how comes that we are still producing t129 chopper and manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-4N engines under licence for our army . and we still manufacturing Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk utility helicopter under licence .Production of the type's General Electric T700 turboshafts will also be localised through Eskisehir-based TEI. The production of this engine is in progress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TEI - T700-TEI-701D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tei.com.tr



They manufacture under license. The components must be delivered from the US before being assembled in Turkey.

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## eagleeye

You said Turkey's defense industry is under CAATSA sanction. If it so us would block any import of components .


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## nomi007

There are some possibilities that Turks will offer T-129 with a VK-2500PS-03 engine.
Which is equipped with FADEC for high and hot applications.

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## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


> There are some possibilities that Turks will offer T-129 with a VK-2500PS-03 engine.
> Which is equipped with FADEC for high and hot applications.



any new engine adoption, certification and testing would require time in years

by the way Turks need to clean up all products with US and EU components not just heli if they want to export

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Turks will only use the VK2500 for the prototype T929.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Turks will only use the VK2500 for the prototype T929.


They are going the opposite approach to the JF - separate powerplant from the airframe.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

nomi007 said:


> There are some possibilities that Turks will offer T-129 with a VK-2500PS-03 engine.
> Which is equipped with FADEC for high and hot applications.



The VK engines are far bigger than the ones used on T129. They won't fit.

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> کیا چینی ہیلی کاپٹر پاکستان کے لیے امریکہ، ترکی کے اشتراک سے بننے والے اسلحے کا متبادل ہو گا؟ - BBC News اردو
> 
> 
> امریکہ کی جانب سے پابندیوں کے باعث ترکی اور پاکستان کا دفاعی معاہدہ کھٹائی میں پڑ گیا جس کے بعد پاکستان آرمی ایوی ایشن نے وسط مدتی اقدام کے طور پر چین سے ’زیڈ۔10 ایم ای‘ (Z-10 ME) لڑاکا ہیلی کاپٹر حاصل کرنے کے لیے اقدامات کا آغاز کر دیا ہے۔
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


Yeh BBC nay bi Lambi Lambi chorni shuru ker de hain

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## khanasifm

All bbc Urdu is Indian propaganda

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## capricorn5192

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386604260423606272

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## Scorpiooo

capricorn5192 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386604260423606272


Lets when they take decision about Pakistani .. this approval has increased chances for Pakistan upto few percent that was zero previously


mingle said:


> Yeh BBC nay bi Lambi Lambi chorni shuru ker de hain


Bro induction of Z10ME in limited numbers is on cards as this ME version have alot input modification from PAA evaluation of 3 Z10 in past... If T 129 prolong .. PAA can go for it considering considering other options which not practical due to financial condition


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## capricorn5192

Scorpiooo said:


> Lets when they take decision about Pakistani .. this approval has increased chances for Pakistan upto few percent that was zero previously



Definitely it shows that US & Turkey are talking, which gives us hope


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## Mrc

Scorpiooo said:


> Lets when they take decision about Pakistani .. this approval has increased chances for Pakistan upto few percent that was zero previously
> 
> Bro induction of Z10ME in limited numbers is on cards as this ME version have alot input modification from PAA evaluation of 3 Z10 in past... If T 129 prolong .. PAA can go for it considering considering other options which not practical due to financial condition



Actually this approval proves this withholding was more about pakistan and less about Turkey... So chances or approval are non existent now

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## Scorpiooo

Mrc said:


> Actually this approval proves this withholding was more about pakistan and less about Turkey... So chances or approval are non existent now


Not yet ... You are right or not .... Will clear in coming days, this order placed before our order


capricorn5192 said:


> Definitely it shows that US & Turkey are talking, which gives us hope


Yes that the point usa shown some flexibility. USA know in case total blocking Pakistan have to go for Chinese z10me or increase number s of MI35

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## BoggedDown

Increase the count for Z10ME to 60 along with about 20 MI35 is good enough for PA for the time being


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## SQ8

Mrc said:


> Actually this approval proves this withholding was more about pakistan and less about Turkey... So chances or approval are non existent now


Pay in hard cash for the AH-1Zs that were built for Pakistan and the clearance will be given.

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## Scorpiooo

BoggedDown said:


> Increase the count for Z10ME to 60 along with about 20 MI35 is good enough for PA for the time being


60 z10 non realistic - numbers for PAA


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## Mrc

SQ8 said:


> Pay in hard cash for the AH-1Zs that were built for Pakistan and the clearance will be given.




Like f 16s?

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## BoggedDown

>> Pay in hard cash for the AH-1Zs that were built for Pakistan and the clearance will be given.

An idiot only thinks like this. Even if Pakistan got delivery of AH-1Z with hard cash, there is no guarantee that spare parts for them will not be embargoed in future making them hanger queens....There is saying: *US arms are dangerous to fight against but having US arms are fatal to fight with as they may not work when you need them most.*

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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> 60 z10 non realistic - numbers for PAA


60 is a very realistic number. Even if T-129 would have come without any issue we should go for 60 at least. And even more.

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## Scorpiooo

Zarvan said:


> 60 is a very realistic number. Even if T-129 would have come without any issue we should go for 60 at least. And even more.


PAA is not that much satisfied with Z10ME that it put all eggs in one basket.. they are more interested in T129 or atak 2 they will definitely wait for there alternate engine .. .. Z10 induction will be as intermediate solution


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## BoggedDown

>> 60 z10 non realistic - numbers for PAA 

Well, PAA gave the number of 30 for T129 or 40 for Z10. I suppose 12 AH-1Z was sure delivery at that time.
As both T-129 and AH-1Z got stuck, I suppose 60 Z-10ME fare enough to compensate.

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## Scorpiooo

Atak 2 was already was in PAA raodmap as followup of T 129

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## BoggedDown

>> PAA is not that much satisfied with Z10ME that it put all eggs in one basket. 

Pakistan has no other option, the elites should pull this "foreign mal" fascination from their a$$ or what ever...


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## Scorpiooo

BoggedDown said:


> >> PAA is not that much satisfied with Z10ME that it put all eggs in one basket.
> 
> Pakistan has no other option, the elites should pull this "foreign mal" fascination from their a$$ or what ever...


Agree not much option except Russian which mean hard cash ..
But remember these 30 T129 where on creditli line from turkish, which will still available .. PAA will wait for alternative engine option for T129 or can convert these to atak 2 option

Z10ME is not bad option, but thesd engine have limitations in term of high altitude performance .. so IMO PAA will go for limited numbers of z10s will wait for T129

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## SQ8

Mrc said:


> Like f 16s?


F-16’s are available today as such with some caveats. But the engine hold up is linked to non payment for AH-1Zs


BoggedDown said:


> >> PAA is not that much satisfied with Z10ME that it put all eggs in one basket.
> 
> Pakistan has no other option, the elites should pull this "foreign mal" fascination from their a$$ or what ever...


I did not know sophisticated attack helicopters were manufactured in Darra Adam Khel that this fascination with foreign weapons was so misplaced.

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## khanasifm

BoggedDown said:


> >> Pay in hard cash for the AH-1Zs that were built for Pakistan and the clearance will be given.
> 
> An idiot only thinks like this. Even if Pakistan got delivery of AH-1Z with hard cash, there is no guarantee that spare parts for them will not be embargoed in future making them hanger queens....There is saying: *US arms are dangerous to fight against but having US arms are fatal to fight with as they may not work when you need them most.*



🤣[emoji23]

Pay taxes and stop electing crooks than may be pak can buy using their own cash [emoji383] [emoji6]

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## BoggedDown

If China can manage with their Z-10 than it should be good enough for PA as well. At least to some extent, as PA does not have any option.

Words like "hope", "wait" etc. are suitable for fan boys wishful thinking but no place in military strategical planning. Military have to stick with best of the available options and plan accordingly.

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## Stealth

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

please check your Email ASAP thnx



Tai Hai Chen said:


> Mi-28 Havoc is pretty popular in Iraq. It was selected over Apache.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372263199622496267


 Fk**** beastt!!! Unit cost?

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## python-000

Stealth said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> please check your Email ASAP thnx
> 
> 
> Fk**** beastt!!! Unit cost?


If Pakistan go for these beast it will be a great punch against india apaches..

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## ACE OF HEARTS

W


BoggedDown said:


> If China can manage with their Z-10 than it should be good enough for PA as well. At least to some extent, as PA does not have any option.
> 
> Words like "hope", "wait" etc. are suitable for fan boys wishful thinking but no place in military strategical planning. Military have to stick with best of the available options and plan accordingly.


What is still LACKING in Z-10 ME, even though it was modified according to PAA wishes?


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## GriffinsRule

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> W
> 
> What is still LACKING in Z-10 ME, even though it was modified according to PAA wishes?


What was exactly modified per PA wishes. Can you give details.

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## mdmm

So finally what deal have Pakistan signed for, to get in 2021
T129 
or Z10
or any other copters ???


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## Scorpiooo

mdmm said:


> So finally what deal have Pakistan signed for, to get in 2021
> T129
> or Z10
> or any other copters ???


Most probably Z10ME/P or May be few Mi35 additionally.
T129 case seems to be doomed thanks to uncle sam

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## iLION12345_1

GriffinsRule said:


> What was exactly modified per PA wishes. Can you give details.



Nothing in the ME is specific to Pakistan. It’s just an improved export version over the Z-10M Pakistan originally tested, which was in fact at least slightly Pakistan specific as the first 3 of that variant were sent to Pakistan for testing and the improvements from it were added to chinas own Z-10s later. They will probably add the MEs improvements to their own Z-10s down the line too.

However considering how things have been historically if PA was to go for Z-10ME we can assume China wouldn’t mind making changes to it for Pakistan…I would still not want a Chinese helicopter for the simple fact of diversification but beggars can’t be choosers sadly.


Stealth said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> please check your Email ASAP thnx
> 
> 
> Fk**** beastt!!! Unit cost?


PAA actually did consider those. Not sure what came or it…


----------



## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409778232837263363

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## iLION12345_1

Those are not for T-129 sadly. 


Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409778232837263363


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## Blacklight

iLION12345_1 said:


> Those are not for T-129 sadly.


Look on the bright side, the sooner ATAK-2 flies, the sooner we can evaluate it.

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> Look on the bright side, the sooner ATAK-2 flies, the sooner we can evaluate it.


Can convert credit line from T129 to Atak 2 , if it provide satisfaction to PAA after evaluation

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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> Can convert credit line from T129 to Atak 2 , if it provide satisfaction to PAA after evaluation


Too early to say. Turkeys ambitions in Afgh could dictate a lot.

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> Too early to say. Turkeys ambitions in Afgh could dictate a lot.


I believe Turkey should think again & again before commit Afghanistan is a Pitt if super powers like US failed Turkey is nobody just relaying Dostum won't take them anywhere my two cents stay away from this
But by committing to airport turkey can also extract US waive from US for Pakistan a real possibility

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Scorpiooo said:


> Can convert credit line from T129 to Atak 2 , if it provide satisfaction to PAA after evaluation


I won't be surprised if the PAA inputs and specs have already been incorporated!

General characteristics of the T929 Mk-II Heavy Class Attack Helicopter:

10-ton class
2 Turboshaft engines
Weapon stations: 6 x underwing hardpoints
Maximum payload: 1,200kg
Tandem cockpit
4 Axis Autopilot
Service ceiling: 20,000ft
Maximum speed: 318km/h
*Operational envelope: -40° to +50°C*
Armor: 12.7mm-resistant armored cockpit
*Laser based Helicopter Obstacle Detection System (HETS) and Fire Control Radar (MilDAR)
Hot & High Performance
Resistant to environmental factors*
High forward speed limit
*Advanced electronic warfare and countermeasure systems*
High-caliber cannon (30mm), new generation 2,75-inch rockets,* long range and anti-tank missiles with different guidance systems and air-to-air missile systems*











ATAK-II Contract Signed for the New Heavy Class Attack Helicopter







www.defenceturkey.com

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## Scorpiooo

Scorpiooo said:


> Most probably Z10ME/P or May be few Mi35 additionally.
> T129 case seems to be doomed thanks to uncle sam





Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> I won't be surprised if the PAA inputs and specs have already been incorporated!
> 
> General characteristics of the T929 Mk-II Heavy Class Attack Helicopter:
> 
> 10-ton class
> 2 Turboshaft engines
> Weapon stations: 6 x underwing hardpoints
> Maximum payload: 1,200kg
> Tandem cockpit
> 4 Axis Autopilot
> Service ceiling: 20,000ft
> Maximum speed: 318km/h
> *Operational envelope: -40° to +50°C*
> Armor: 12.7mm-resistant armored cockpit
> *Laser based Helicopter Obstacle Detection System (HETS) and Fire Control Radar (MilDAR)
> Hot & High Performance
> Resistant to environmental factors*
> High forward speed limit
> *Advanced electronic warfare and countermeasure systems*
> High-caliber cannon (30mm), new generation 2,75-inch rockets,* long range and anti-tank missiles with different guidance systems and air-to-air missile systems*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ATAK-II Contract Signed for the New Heavy Class Attack Helicopter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenceturkey.com


Cant say any thing about incorporating PAA specifications in Atak 2 as Turks have there own way of working.
One thing is sure on papers Atak 2 looks promising and possibility of using same engine of MI 17 utility heli, which we already operating in good numbers will big edge for us.
Right know its not clear when its production will be started in actual and when turks want to export it (as they have to fullfill domestic order first)

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## LegionnairE

Scorpiooo said:


> Cant say any thing about incorporating PAA specifications in Atak 2 as Turks have there own way of working.
> One thing is sure on papers Atak 2 looks promising and possibility of using same engine of MI 17 utility heli, which we already operating in good numbers will big edge for us.
> Right know its not clear when its production will be started in actual and when turks want to export it (as they have to fullfill domestic order first)


In this case domestic order can take the back seat as we don't really need a heavy attack helicopter in a hurry. T-129 is good enough if flown correctly.

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## mdmm

Neighbour enemy of Pakistan is buying heavy amount of jet fighters, helicopters, missile S-400 and UAV . But Pakistan army is silent over last ten years ??
Did they buy everything but want to hide it OR Pakistan Army believe in unexpected miracles , when attacked from enemies ??

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## iLION12345_1

mdmm said:


> Neighbour enemy of Pakistan is buying heavy amount of jet fighters, helicopters, missile S-400 and UAV . But Pakistan army is silent over last ten years ??
> Did they buy everything but want to hide it OR Pakistan Army believe in unexpected miracles , when attacked from enemies ??


Pakistan army uses its budget to develop the DHA. Air Force uses it to buy Tea for visiting pilots. Navy used it to run Bahria Town. Make money, not war.

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## Akh1112

mdmm said:


> Neighbour enemy of Pakistan is buying heavy amount of jet fighters, helicopters, missile S-400 and UAV . But Pakistan army is silent over last ten years ??
> Did they buy everything but want to hide it OR Pakistan Army believe in unexpected miracles , when attacked from enemies ??




Pakistan army is procuring:
new tanks
new spg's
new apc's

pakistan air force is procuring:
more jf-17s
new fighters
new missiles
new a2g weapons
new fighters
new sam's

pakistan navy is procuring:
new missile boats
new frigates
new corvettes
new opvs
new anti ship missiles
new sam's
new submarines



This is just stuff we can talk about.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> Pakistan army is procuring:
> new tanks
> new spg's
> new apc's
> 
> pakistan air force is procuring:
> more jf-17s
> new fighters
> new missiles
> new a2g weapons
> new fighters
> new sam's
> 
> pakistan navy is procuring:
> new missile boats
> new frigates
> new corvettes
> new opvs
> new anti ship missiles
> new sam's
> new submarines
> 
> 
> 
> This is just stuff we can talk about.


This is also with a very constrained budget. If Pakistan's economy was actually operating at its capacity and generating public revenue, our procurement would be much, much more.

BTW adding to your list, studies are underway for our next SATCOM (it'll have Ka-band, Ku-band, and possibly even X-band) and SAT-IMINT assets. These will launch before 2030.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is also with a very constrained budget. If Pakistan's economy was actually operating at its capacity and generating public revenue, our procurement would be much, much more.
> 
> BTW adding to your list, studies are underway for our next SATCOM (it'll have Ka-band, Ku-band, and possibly even X-band) and SAT-IMINT assets. These will launch before 2030.


Can add other developmental projects in that case too, the radars, drones, Azm, AK-2, the gun-boat designs, list goes on.
New helicopters are coming as well, PA is obviously getting something instead of the T-129, navy is getting more helicopters for both the Type 054A/P and the MILGEM frigates as well.

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is also with a very constrained budget. If Pakistan's economy was actually operating at its capacity and generating public revenue, our procurement would be much, much more.
> 
> BTW adding to your list, studies are underway for our next SATCOM (it'll have Ka-band, Ku-band, and possibly even X-band) and SAT-IMINT assets. These will launch before 2030.




Funnily enough, the PA has already started work on SATCOM, They have the full capabilities now.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> Funnily enough, the PA has already started work on SATCOM, They have the full capabilities now.


Yep we have operable SATCOM, but I was just saying, the armed forces will update/expand it with a satellite with way more transponders (and of different types). Each of the tri-services wants UAVs with BLoS, but you add regular communications, network-enablement, etc across all 3, they'll need more capacity up there.

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## Scorpiooo

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412984203185115138

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## khanasifm

https://***************/threads/turkish-attack-utility-helicopter-programs.9/https://***************/threads/turkish-attack-utility-helicopter-programs.9/

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400465394301689856

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> https://***************/threads/turkish-attack-utility-helicopter-programs.9/https://***************/threads/turkish-attack-utility-helicopter-programs.9/
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400465394301689856


???


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## xbat

TEI ceo Mr. Aksit said TS1400 test are ongoing and first flight test will take place in 2023 , yesterday .

i just a little bit disappointed for schedule but anyway , at least we will have an engine within 3 years

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## Cool_Soldier

Pakistan is interested in T129. One the matter is resolved, this bird will fly to PAA.
It may include both version.

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## Invictus01

xbat said:


> TEI ceo Mr. Aksit said TS1400 test are ongoing and first flight test will take place in 2023 , yesterday .
> 
> i just a little bit disappointed for schedule but anyway , at least we will have an engine within 3 years


3 years is just an understatement 
You need years to develop the engine before they go on extensive flight trials... thousands of hours of actually flight time before the design of the engine & it's viability can be certified
Not to mention the actual serial production which would take considerable amount of time too
Going down the T129 route is just pure stupid 
More promises from the Turks with nothing but tweets to show for
Meanwhile our pilots continue to climb into the cockpits of obsolete choppers that should have been phased out years ago


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## Nasr

The T-129 deal is dead in the water. I didn't ever think that any deal with the Turks would actually materialize, but at least the Corvettes are on schedule. The americans really should be cut-out from any deal that remotely connects with them. Their entire front on foreign policy is flying around like carded wool and the time has come to enact concerted efforts to cut-out any and all connections with americans in any future military contract deals. 

As for the Turks, well the loss of this deal will hurt them, regrettably so. But Pakistan must ensure that any future deals with the Turks is one which has no vulnerabilities to any sanctions by the americans.

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## xbat

Invictus01 said:


> 3 years is just an understatement
> You need years to develop the engine before they go on extensive flight trials... thousands of hours of actually flight time before the design of the engine & it's viability can be certified
> Not to mention the actual serial production which would take considerable amount of time too
> Going down the T129 route is just pure stupid
> More promises from the Turks with nothing but tweets to show for
> Meanwhile our pilots continue to climb into the cockpits of obsolete choppers that should have been phased out years ago


man! this project has started in 2013 unofficially and officially in 2017, so we worked on it for 8 years it is not short span of time

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## Tipu7

xbat said:


> man! this project has started in 2013 unofficially and officially in 2017, so we worked on it for 8 years it is not short span of time


In T129 case, it seems We tried to copy the Indian style of handling military deals.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

The CEO says the engine will be ready in the nearest 2023-2024 and it is being renewed. Like Parrot, someone constantly gives an example of this engine, then someone else says they can't wait for it. Same goes for the (German) Asian guy for the TFX engine I guess. I don't understand if I have deja vu, why the same things are being talked about over and over.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Tipu7 said:


> In T129 case, it seems We tried to copy the Indian style of handling military deals.


Better late than never….


mingle said:


> I believe Turkey should think again & again before commit Afghanistan is a Pitt if super powers like US failed Turkey is nobody just relaying Dostum won't take them anywhere my two cents stay away from this
> But by committing to airport turkey can also extract US waive from US for Pakistan a real possibility


I have heard Dostum is returning to Afganistan! Make no mistake this time!! Take him out with a precise hit! I hope the PAF is already practicing….

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## Great Janjua

Members who keep saying we went down the Indian path for this deal have forgotten what this deal really is about, Instead of looking at things through a microscope why not broaden our vision first.Firstly waiting for the indigenous engine to come online will only be beneficial as it will give us the leverage to manipulate it to our liking and having a MRO facility on the go.That is ITAR free believe or not.Lastly we are not the cash cow of the subcontinent,We are getting these on a loan,Chinese want hard cash nowadays.Also they offer none of the things mentioned in the latter part,Going down the Turkish root hopefully will give us some TOT for our waiting troubles and maybe joint partnership in other projects like the Gokbey medium lift Heli.All in all good things come to those who are patient....Unless your a cash cow like India

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## waz

Nasr said:


> The T-129 deal is dead in the water. I didn't ever think that any deal with the Turks would actually materialize, but at least the Corvettes are on schedule. The americans really should be cut-out from any deal that remotely connects with them. Their entire front on foreign policy is flying around like carded wool and the time has come to enact concerted efforts to cut-out any and all connections with americans in any future military contract deals.
> 
> As for the Turks, well the loss of this deal will hurt them, regrettably so. But Pakistan must ensure that any future deals with the Turks is one which has no vulnerabilities to any sanctions by the americans.



Yep ATAK-2 is where it is. The T-129 is a dead end. The US admin played foul not only with the ATAK engines but also the Vipers. 
There should be no US connection to any arms deal from now on.

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## Akh1112

waz said:


> Yep ATAK-2 is where it is. The T-129 is a dead end. The US admin played foul not only with the ATAK engines but also the Vipers.
> There should be no US connection to any arms deal from now on.


Jinnah/Ada uses GE gas turbines 😛

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Akh1112 said:


> Jinnah/Ada uses GE gas turbines 😛


Turkey is working on gas turbine engines by forming JVs with the Ukranian companies…


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## waz

Akh1112 said:


> Jinnah/Ada uses GE gas turbines 😛



Better look at a plan B soon then.


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## Path-Finder

this guy reported something about Ukrainian engine swap, possibly. But that would mean a new set of trials? I mean Pakistan already uses Ukrainian heli engines!

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

The helicopter is good but the problem is it does not have a domestic engine to circumvent US engine export ban to Pakistan. Even the airframe is licensed to Italy's A129 Mangusta.


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## Deino

Path-Finder said:


> this guy reported something about Ukrainian engine swap, possibly. But that would mean a new set of trials? I mean Pakistan already uses Ukrainian heli engines!


 

Most likely confusing the T129 with the new T929 which will use Ukrainian engines. AFAIK there is no suitable Ukrainian engine for the T129 available and even if, it would require additional testing, certification, time and $$$$,

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## Path-Finder

atak-2 will have to be!

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## Sulman Badshah

Path-Finder said:


> atak-2 will have to be!


30 mm main gun 
10 ton class 
6 hard points 
along Mildar radar 

that's surely a beast

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## jupiter2007

Some Youtubers are reporting that Russia agreed to sell Mi-28, SU-35, and air defense system to Pakistan.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> View attachment 773803
> 
> Some Youtubers are reporting that Russia agreed to sell Mi-28, SU-35, and air defense system to Pakistan.


Mi28 is not bad

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## python-000

Path-Finder said:


> atak-2 will have to be!


Pakistan & Turkey can review the previous agreement & can Go for Atak-2...

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## Path-Finder

Sulman Badshah said:


> 30 mm main gun
> 10 ton class
> 6 hard points
> along Mildar radar
> 
> that's surely a beast


annnnddd no fing yankee engine.

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## Moon

jupiter2007 said:


> View attachment 773803
> 
> Some Youtubers are reporting that Russia agreed to sell Mi-28, SU-35, and air defense system to Pakistan.


Investing in Mi-28 makes little sense after we've bought Mi-35s, what's the justification?

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## iLION12345_1

jupiter2007 said:


> View attachment 773803
> 
> Some Youtubers are reporting that Russia agreed to sell Mi-28, SU-35, and air defense system to Pakistan.





Moon said:


> Investing in Mi-28 makes little sense after we've bought Mi-35s, what's the justification?


Mi-28 is in an entirely different class than Mi35. PA infact did show interest and even did preliminary testing of a modified Mi-28 when it bought Mi35s. Though as far as I know it didn’t go beyond that with the Mi28s. These could be a good alternative to our blocked T129, but Imo Z-10ME still might make a little more sense.

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## flameboard

Pakistan should leverage supporting US withdrawal in Karachi to its advantage. Surely there was some trade / deal


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## jupiter2007

iLION12345_1 said:


> Mi-28 is in an entirely different class than Mi35. PA infact did show interest and even did preliminary testing of a modified Mi-28 when it bought Mi35s. Though as far as I know it didn’t go beyond that with the Mi28s. These could be a good alternative to our blocked T129, but Imo Z-10ME still might make a little more sense.



😂 You tell him boy.....He made that comment after looking at the picture I posted.


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## python-000

On urgent bases if we despratly needed Attack helicopters then we must get Z-10ME from China & then we can give more time to Turkey to go for Atak-2...


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

?????







Noting that they have started to develop the weapons and cannons of the Atak helicopter as TR Mechatronics, Aliş said, "*We will deliver the first 30 cannons of the Atak helicopter that will be exported next year. *Thanks to this product, which will be produced entirely by Turkish engineers, locally and nationally, we will meet the needs of our armed forces and prevent foreign currency payment. We will play an effective role in closing the current account deficit with our exports. said.










20 milimetrelik yerli burun topu 2022'de Atak helikopterine entegre edilecek


Sanayi ve Teknoloji Bakanı Mustafa Varank, Düzce'de Sarsılmaz Silah Fabrikası ile TR Mekatronik'i ziyaretinde, milli imkanlarla geliştirilen 20 milimetrelik 3 namlulu burun toplarının ilk atışlarının 2022'de başlayacağını söyledi. - Anadolu Ajansı




www.aa.com.tr

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## dBSPL

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> ?????
> 
> 
> 
> Noting that they have started to develop the weapons and cannons of the Atak helicopter as TR Mechatronics, Aliş said, "*We will deliver the first 30 cannons of the Atak helicopter that will be exported next year. *Thanks to this product, which will be produced entirely by Turkish engineers, locally and nationally, we will meet the needs of our armed forces and prevent foreign currency payment. We will play an effective role in closing the current account deficit with our exports. said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20 milimetrelik yerli burun topu 2022'de Atak helikopterine entegre edilecek
> 
> 
> Sanayi ve Teknoloji Bakanı Mustafa Varank, Düzce'de Sarsılmaz Silah Fabrikası ile TR Mekatronik'i ziyaretinde, milli imkanlarla geliştirilen 20 milimetrelik 3 namlulu burun toplarının ilk atışlarının 2022'de başlayacağını söyledi. - Anadolu Ajansı
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aa.com.tr




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466789334175076359

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## ZeEa5KPul

So... has Pakistan received a single one of these yet?

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## Scorpiooo

This deal is dead .... lets any new deal will taken from already approved loan


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## GriffinsRule

Hard to say if they meant exporting the guns or the helicopter by that tweet


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## Primus

ZeEa5KPul said:


> So... has Pakistan received a single one of these yet?


No


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

waz said:


> Better look at a plan B soon then.


Turkey and Ukraine have JV to produce marine and submarine turbo engines.


Sulman Badshah said:


> 30 mm main gun
> 10 ton class
> 6 hard points
> along Mildar radar
> 
> that's surely a beast


First flight for 10-ton ATAK-2 is in 2023, and delivery to the Turkish Army in 2025, according to the TAI boss Dr. Kotil at a recent program in CNN-Turk.....

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## ARMalik

Can't Believe that the whole deal went down the drains due to engines ! Freaking hell, are helicopter engines that complicated?? I wouldn't have though so.


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## python-000

ARMalik said:


> Can't Believe that the whole deal went down the drains due to engines ! Freaking hell, are helicopter engines that complicated?? I wouldn't have though so.


Its time to move forward & forget about Turkey helis we must need to go for Chinese or Russian ones in my openion Z10ME is the Best for PAA Attack helicopter & Russian Mi28...


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## SD 10

Buying anything with a US component is a bad idea for us..... even a kid could see that 5 years ago... dont know which "brilliant" mind in the GHQ cam up with this ........................

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## Ali_Baba

SD 10 said:


> Buying anything with a US component is a bad idea for us..... even a kid could see that 5 years ago... dont know which "brilliant" mind in the GHQ cam up with this ........................



Agree - the idiots in GHQ and PAF make some stupid decisions which have severly affected procurement programmes - in addition to the T-219 issues - the AH-1Z's that were ordered and never delivered is another symptom of the malaise in the procurement teams -

Thankfully the PN has been a bit more lucky with their programmes.

The motto should be - if it is not ITAR free - then "we" are not interested ...

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## Akh1112

Ali_Baba said:


> Agree - the idiots in GHQ and PAF make some stupid decisions which have severly affected procurement programmes - in addition to the T-219 issues - the AH-1Z's that were ordered and never delivered is another symptom of the malaise in the procurement teams -
> 
> Thankfully the PN has been a bit more lucky with their programmes.
> 
> The motto should be - if it is not ITAR free - then "we" are not interested ...


lucky for now, however, all currently public future PN programs have ITAR restricted critical components 🤷‍♂️

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## Trango Towers

These helicopter sanctions have been a blessing. America thinks its slowing Pakistan down and making it weak. Actually America is helping us stand on our feet.
Thank Allah for sanctions. Thank Allah for the snake America and its zionista fascists masters

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ARMalik said:


> Can't Believe that the whole deal went down the drains due to engines ! Freaking hell, are helicopter engines that complicated?? I wouldn't have though so.


Unfortunately, the core of the turbo engine development is harder than building nukes!! The secret lies in the fabrication of the single crystal blades of Ti-Ni alloys to withstand 2KC+ for 2K+ hrs with a 6 sigma quality and reliability assurance! TEI has achieved that for Gokbey utility choppers. Next is for the military version....

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## Trango Towers

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Unfortunately, the core of the turbo engine development is harder than building nukes!! The secret lies in the fabrication of the single crystal blades of Ti-Ni alloys to withstand 2KC+ for 2K+ hrs with a 6 sigma quality and reliability assurance! TEI has achieved that for Gokbey utility choppers. Next is for the mitary version....


Metallurgy and blade design preferably single crystal is the biggest issue for most countries. But most countries have no R and D budgets

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Trango Towers said:


> Metallurgy and blade design preferably single crystal is the biggest issue for most countries. But most countries have no R and D budgets


Luckily for Turkey, their top bosses and engineers in the military industrial facilities like TAI, TEI, ROKETSAN, ASELSAN, STM, Baykar etc. were educated and trained in the US universities and defense companies! For example TEI boss Prof. Dr. Faruk Aksit* had his PhD in turbo aero engines from the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and worked in the same field at the GE where he rose up to the executive VP level! Then, he returned to Turkey, and started his academic career at a top Turkish university where he produced a large #of masters and PhD students doing research in the similar fields! Then he joined TEI as it's CEO, and the rest is history....

*The son of a top Turkish Islamic scholar of _Fikh_ and a graduate of a Imam Hatip High School (a modern version of Madrasa, where the religious and physical sciences are taught together). He was badly poisoned a couple of years back, but by HIS MERCY he survived.

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## Imran Khan

why this thread is still open ?


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## [--Leo--]

Pakistan should develop its own copter and should start developing sub systems and we are not getting T129 before 2025 - 26 PA have to test performance after new engine so we are way behind but drones can cover the gap of helicopter for now


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## Primus

Imran Khan said:


> why this thread is still open ?


For people that have that smidgeon amount of hope left inside them

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## Imran Khan

Huffal said:


> For people that have that smidgeon amount of hope left inside them


i must say they should be awarded most optimistic humans on planet earth then

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## dBSPL

The hull of the helicopters produced for Pakistan were shared on social media last year. While this problem was about to be resolved, as far as I can understand, the US negotiations on Afghanistan came into play. These hulls were probably later completed for the TAF.

How could this problem was overcamed? The two countries could form a joint force command and deploy a fleet of T-129s within Pakistani borders. Thus, a stop-gap solution could be created until Pakistan's engine problem of the T-129 is resolved or until it acquires as many attack helicopters as it needs from other alternative manufacturers. The issue here is not Turkey's arms sales but Pakistani army able to get through the process.

Gas turbines of Babur class corvettes are also of USA origin. However, while the Pakistan-MILGEM project continues at full speed without any interruption; The fact that the US has created such a barrier to Pakistan's acquisition of T-129 attack helicopters also suggests that the access of the Pakistani Armed Forces to this system raises some concerns on the US side.

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## iLION12345_1

Project died ages ago, Pakistan didn’t lose any money on it, only time. US blocked the engines, Turkey can’t make its own engine in time. Pakistan will buy an alternative, Likely Chinese.

That’s all there is to it, why the continued Discussions going in circles and the frankly unrealistic proposals are continuing, I don’t understand, it’s not that good of a helicopter anyways compared to what else is in market now.

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## araz

dBSPL said:


> The hull of the helicopters produced for Pakistan were shared on social media last year. While this problem was about to be resolved, as far as I can understand, the US negotiations on Afghanistan came into play. These hulls were probably later completed for the TAF.
> 
> How could this problem was overcamed? The two countries could form a joint force command and deploy a fleet of T-129s within Pakistani borders. Thus, a stop-gap solution could be created until Pakistan's engine problem of the T-129 is resolved or until it acquires as many attack helicopters as it needs from other alternative manufacturers. The issue here is not Turkey's arms sales but Pakistani army able to get through the process.
> 
> Gas turbines of Babur class corvettes are also of USA origin. However, while the Pakistan-MILGEM project continues at full speed without any interruption; The fact that the US has created such a barrier to Pakistan's acquisition of T-129 attack helicopters also suggests that the access of the Pakistani Armed Forces to this system raises some concerns on the US side.


The hull production was never in question. The provision of a full fledged system remains the responsibility of the provider not the vendor. So if there is a deficiency it is a problem with the Turkish acquisition of the engines not with PAA. 
What had not been understood is that with one masterly stroke the US has dealt a blow to Turkish collaboration with PAA. It seems that the blow was against this collaboratoon as sales of engines to Phillipines was:approved. Iam sure the Turk brothers:will get over this hurdle and although PAA programme has been delayed it has not died completely. What eventuay transpires is difficult to see but I suspect the next Turk PAA deal will:be a lot more robust with local manufacturing/assembly of helos in Pakistan. 
A

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## araz

iLION12345_1 said:


> Project died ages ago, Pakistan didn’t lose any money on it, only time. US blocked the engines, Turkey can’t make its own engine in time. Pakistan will buy an alternative, Likely Chinese.
> 
> That’s all there is to it, why the continued Discussions going in circles and the frankly unrealistic proposals are continuing, I don’t understand, it’s not that good of a helicopter anyways compared to what else is in market now.


If PAA wanted to buy the Chinese helo it would have happened by now. PAA has remained very quiet about its plans and it seems it wants to revisit this issue in future. I think the idea is to use this platform as a launchpad for local assembly of helos in Pakistan. There is a demand but not enough to justify going it alone. As to tech transfer the Chinese appear to be in no mood to share the platform with PAA for local manufacturing. On the other hand the PAA/Turkish project will have enough numbers to justify viability with both sides coming out winners from it. This in my view is the only reason for PAA to want to wait on the progress of the T129/ATAK. The Chinese option will always remain as an off the shelf buy but does not provide PAA with any incentive in the long run to go for it.
This remains my view point but open to correction/viewing an alternative point of view.
The only way we can have a viable helo programme will be to have a baseline platform with military/commercial use and a joint venture with job sharing.
A

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## Irfan Baloch

Imran Khan said:


> i must say they should be awarded most optimistic humans on planet earth then


I am one of them. hoping the Turks will pull it off and bring a military grade and equally efficient Local engine 
OR ..the Americans will s have a change of heart and give waiver to export these copters with their engines to Pakistan.

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## Akh1112

araz said:


> If PAA wanted to buy the Chinese helo it would have happened by now. PAA has remained very quiet about its plans and it seems it wants to revisit this issue in future. I think the idea is to use this platform as a launchpad for local assembly of helos in Pakistan. There is a demand but not enough to justify going it alone. As to tech transfer the Chinese appear to *be in no mood to share the platform with PAA for local manufacturing.* On the other hand the PAA/Turkish project will have enough numbers to justify viability with both sides coming out winners from it. This in my view is the only reason for PAA to want to wait on the progress of the T129/ATAK. The Chinese option will always remain as an off the shelf buy but does not provide PAA with any incentive in the long run to go for it.
> This remains my view point but open to correction/viewing an alternative point of view.
> The only way we can have a viable helo programme will be to have a baseline platform with military/commercial use and a joint venture with job sharing.
> A




But what is there to say this is what they want?

Look, local production is great when youre buying in large numbers, i.e the JF-17, K8, Al-Khalid/VT4.

When in smaller numbers it ends up being more of a headache than a positive, costs start to balloon, it isnt realistic, if we were after, say, 100 units, perhaps its sensible, however, for 20-30 i question the rationale behind ToT. At the end of the day, if PAA ACTUALLY wanted to JV on a project, the Italians want a partner for their heavy attack helo, develop a pak specific variant, problem solved.

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## Imran Khan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am one of them. hoping the Turks will pull it off and bring a military grade and equally efficient Local engine
> OR ..the Americans will s have a change of heart and give waiver to export these copters with their engines to Pakistan.


why not amercan just handed over cobras sir ? they will not give us anything and we must move on now .


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## iLION12345_1

araz said:


> If PAA wanted to buy the Chinese helo it would have happened by now. PAA has remained very quiet about its plans and it seems it wants to revisit this issue in future. I think the idea is to use this platform as a launchpad for local assembly of helos in Pakistan. There is a demand but not enough to justify going it alone. As to tech transfer the Chinese appear to be in no mood to share the platform with PAA for local manufacturing. On the other hand the PAA/Turkish project will have enough numbers to justify viability with both sides coming out winners from it. This in my view is the only reason for PAA to want to wait on the progress of the T129/ATAK. The Chinese option will always remain as an off the shelf buy but does not provide PAA with any incentive in the long run to go for it.
> This remains my view point but open to correction/viewing an alternative point of view.
> The only way we can have a viable helo programme will be to have a baseline platform with military/commercial use and a joint venture with job sharing.
> A


I highly doubt PA wants any type of local manufacturing given the small numbers, the Chinese Helo is both better and got the same interest as the T-129B. Imo There could have simply been no other reason for PAA to pick T-129B over Z-10M than performance, the Z-10M simply didn’t have the best engine performance, However the ME looks to be better than both it’s predecessor and the T-129B.
PAA also showed _*zero*_ interest in JV or local manufacturing of T-129B.
The PAA made its interest as clear for Z-10 as it did for T-129, Wether they actually buy it or not is another story.


Irfan Baloch said:


> I am one of them. hoping the Turks will pull it off and bring a military grade and equally efficient Local engine
> OR ..the Americans will s have a change of heart and give waiver to export these copters with their engines to Pakistan.


The Turks can pull it off, but it will take 3+ years. If the PAA is willing to wait that long and risk lives in AH-1s and also stay massively unprepared in case a conflict starts in those 3-5 years, then we can Wait for T-129B. In my opinion it’s been too long already. The T-129B will need a capability upgrade by the time PAA can get them in service.

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## araz

Akh1112 said:


> But what is there to say this is what they want?
> 
> Look, local production is great when youre buying in large numbers, i.e the JF-17, K8, Al-Khalid/VT4.
> 
> When in smaller numbers it ends up being more of a headache than a positive, costs start to balloon, it isnt realistic, if we were after, say, 100 units, perhaps its sensible, however, for 20-30 i question the rationale behind ToT. At the end of the day, if PAA ACTUALLY wanted to JV on a project, the Italians want a partner for their heavy attack helo, develop a pak specific variant, problem solved.


I understand fully what you are saying. I understand that at best our attack Helo requirement is 60 to 80 units max. I understand that at this rate you will not go for anything with local input. My idea was:
A. For the Turks to share production facilities which would be sensible as our labour costs are much lower as compared to the Turks. So we manufacture some components, perhaps the air frame (or parts of it) for us, the Turks and any other vendors:who want the helo.
B. Use a common platform basis for civilian use which would make enough numbers to make the project worth while.
Is there any evidence of this happening. In short NO. Is it a viable project? I would say keeping our combined needs in mind it would be.
This is the only way we would be able to get things going to establish something locally.
As to the Italians, we will not be able to make enough units on our own for it to be financially viable. This is:why the common needs of Pakistan and Turkey make the deal viable. There is no right or wrong here and a lot of imponderables but at least to me it makes sense.
A

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## dBSPL

araz said:


> The hull production was never in question. The provision of a full fledged system remains the responsibility of the provider not the vendor. So if there is a deficiency it is a problem with the Turkish acquisition of the engines not with PAA.
> What had not been understood is that with one masterly stroke the US has dealt a blow to Turkish collaboration with PAA. It seems that the blow was against this collaboratoon as sales of engines to Phillipines was:approved. Iam sure the Turk brothers:will get over this hurdle and although PAA programme has been delayed it has not died completely. What eventuay transpires is difficult to see but I suspect the next Turk PAA deal will:be a lot more robust with local manufacturing/assembly of helos in Pakistan.
> A



I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?

From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?

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## waz

dBSPL said:


> I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?
> 
> From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, *the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?*



The army tradtionally has always been the strongest arm. 
With the navy the US knows Pakistan can turn to China easy, where as China's domestic attack chopper program is being tweaked.

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## iLION12345_1

araz said:


> I understand fully what you are saying. I understand that at best our attack Helo requirement is 60 to 80 units max. I understand that at this rate you will not go for anything with local input. My idea was:
> A. For the Turks to share production facilities which would be sensible as our labour costs are much lower as compared to the Turks. So we manufacture some components, perhaps the air frame (or parts of it) for us, the Turks and any other vendors:who want the helo.
> B. Use a common platform basis for civilian use which would make enough numbers to make the project worth while.
> Is there any evidence of this happening. In short NO. Is it a viable project? I would say keeping our combined needs in mind it would be.
> This is the only way we would be able to get things going to establish something locally.
> As to the Italians, we will not be able to make enough units on our own for it to be financially viable. This is:why the common needs of Pakistan and Turkey make the deal viable. There is no right or wrong here and a lot of imponderables but at least to me it makes sense.
> A


60-80 is too high, 30-40 at most.

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## Raja Porus

iLION12345_1 said:


> 60-80 is too high, 30-40 at most.


Yep, especially with PA's increasing interest and purchase of UCAVs

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## Irfan Baloch

dBSPL said:


> I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?
> 
> From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?


valid question you raised and I was not aware that Pak Turk Naval deal has American components as well which have escaped the embargo. 
but to ensure a reliable and sanction free defence cooperation we need to look at ways to good alternatives that are beyond the scope of American blackmailing.

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## SQ8

dBSPL said:


> I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?
> 
> From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?


All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.

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## Dreamer.

SQ8 said:


> All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.


I wonder if this is the case or not? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. 

I have commented on this before, I find it absolutely amazing that PA has chosen not to pay for AH-1Z. I was of the opinion that if payment was the only issue then PA should do it post-haste. But also I wonder if payment is not the only issue. It's a bit mystifying.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dreamer. said:


> I wonder if this is the case or not? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.
> 
> I have commented on this before, I find it absolutely amazing that PA has chosen not to pay for AH-1Z. I was of the opinion that if payment was the only issue then PA should do it post-haste. But also I wonder if payment is not the only issue. It's a bit mystifying.


You see... Every desi uncle has a hill destined for them. They will die on this hill, even if it makes zero sense to do so.

This Army leadership found its hill. Now, this Army leadership is going to die on that hill until they move on. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current Army leadership passes. We could very well see a reversal with the next cadre.

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## Ali_Baba

SQ8 said:


> All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.



Or they pay the money and get soya-beans delivered - it is a lot of money and not worth the risk given the behaviour of the USA in dealing with Pakistan, more so now with the way the USA left Afghanistan.

It comes down to, do you trust the Americans and right now - no one does - or for that matter - will trust them again.

The matter was not just the payment of the AH-1Zs, but the reimbursement of billions of dollars of expenses which the Americans promised to pay and then ratted out on the cheque ...

Best to switch tracks and go for the WZ-10E's with all its warts - will be better than the AH-1Fs and then wait for the T929 with possibiliy a Ukrainian derived engine.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.


It seems like the PAA is sitting pat on helicopters right now.

They didn't lose anything with the T129. The Turks agreed to sell it in installments and even set money aside from their own budget to start manufacturing the aircraft. The PAA would only pay on delivery. Since there was no delivery, there was no payment.

IIRC the only other vendor willing to sell to us on those terms is China. However, we haven't heard anything about it for about 1-2 years.

Instead, the PAA has been okay with giving Turkey more time.

It sounds like it's waiting for _something_.

I remember from the ATAK/Z-10 tests that endurance, range, high-altitude operations, hot temperature, and sand environments were all critical. The only ones to have scored well on all those requirements were the AH-1Z and AH-64D/E. The rest excelled in most areas, but not all.



iLION12345_1 said:


> 60-80 is too high, 30-40 at most.


The attack helicopter requirement is 60. The PAA had set it since the late 1980s. In fact, Benazir Bhutto had signed 2 deals: 60 F-16s and 40 AH-1Fs. The PAA is still trying to get to that 60-strong figure. Yes, the new attack helicopters are way more capable than the AH-1F/S, but the PAA is still focused on 60 units. I heard it straight from TAI and others who would know (back in 2018). I guess sticking to 60 is to improve the qualitative capability, especially for countering Indian IBGs.

The original plan was to split between a "heavy" (i.e. AH-1Z) and a "light" (T129).

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It seems like the PAA is sitting pat on helicopters right now.
> 
> They didn't lose anything with the T129. The Turks agreed to sell it in installments and even set money aside from their own budget to start manufacturing the aircraft. The PAA would only pay on delivery. Since there was no delivery, there was no payment.
> 
> IIRC the only other vendor willing to sell to us on those terms is China. However, we haven't heard anything about it for about 1-2 years.
> 
> Instead, the PAA has been okay with giving Turkey more time.
> 
> It sounds like it's waiting for _something_.
> 
> I remember from the ATAK/Z-10 tests that endurance, range, high-altitude operations, hot temperature, and sand environments were all critical. The only ones to have scored well on all those requirements were the AH-1Z and AH-64D/E. The rest excelled in most areas, but not all.
> 
> 
> The attack helicopter requirement is 60. The PAA had set it since the late 1980s. In fact, Benazir Bhutto had signed 2 deals: 60 F-16s and 40 AH-1Fs. The PAA is still trying to get to that 60-strong figure. Yes, the new attack helicopters are way more capable than the AH-1F/S, but the PAA is still focused on 60 units. I heard it straight from TAI and others who would know (back in 2018). I guess sticking to 60 is to improve the qualitative capability, especially for countering Indian IBGs.
> 
> The original plan was to split between a "heavy" (i.e. AH-1Z) and a "light" (T129).


There is also a bit of a shift in how CAS may be conducted that is driving that change. Manned Attack helis are very flexible and useful but in terms of anti-armor anti personnel you have an alternative. The Karabakh conflict’s impact is still not being felt in enthusiast defense circles as it is within militaries. Whole integrated IADS and mechanized formations fell to systems that in total probably cost $80-100 million max. By comparison the unit cost to PA for its AH-1Zs was $39 million. If they spend that much on UCAVs even if armed with 2 Burqs and other systems the impact will be massive. You don’t have to kill 30 tanks out of a column of 40 to destroy it; just the lead and rear to cause consternation to set in and have the field leadership of the enemy start making bad decisions.

You can still have attack helicopters or other systems on site to take out additional tanks. But if you lost a AH-1Z to a MANPAD in such a mission it would be $39 million plus weapons cost and pilot. If you lost three drones it would be 1/3rd of it.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

SQ8 said:


> There is also a bit of a shift in how CAS may be conducted that is driving that change. Manned Attack helis are very flexible and useful but in terms of anti-armor anti personnel you have an alternative. The Karabakh conflict’s impact is still not being felt in enthusiast defense circles as it is within militaries. Whole integrated IADS and mechanized formations fell to systems that in total probably cost $80-100 million max. By comparison the unit cost to PA for its AH-1Zs was $39 million. If they spend that much on UCAVs even if armed with 2 Burqs and other systems the impact will be massive. You don’t have to kill 30 tanks out of a column of 40 to destroy it; just the lead and rear to cause consternation to set in and have the field leadership of the enemy start making bad decisions.
> 
> You can still have attack helicopters or other systems on site to take out additional tanks. But if you lost a AH-1Z to a MANPAD in such a mission it would be $39 million plus weapons cost and pilot. If you lost three drones it would be 1/3rd of it.


No wonder the British commands are now saying tanks are getting redundant, and they want yo get Baykar TB2 with TOT!!!

Social media chatters the cost of a Baykar TB2 is < 2m$ at the factory gate....

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## R Wing

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You see... Every desi uncle has a hill destined for them. They will die on this hill, even if it makes zero sense to do so.
> 
> This Army leadership found its hill. Now, this Army leadership is going to die on that hill until they move on. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current Army leadership passes. We could very well see a reversal with the next cadre.



What do you think we should do? 

And you've hit the nail on the head.


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## SQ8

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> No wonder the British commands are now saying tanks are getting redundant, and they want yo get Baykar TB2 with TOT!!!
> 
> Social media chatters the cost of a Baykar TB2 is < 2m$ at the factory gate....


This is funny from a language perspective especially since both baykar and bekar sound similar but the Urdu Bekar has come over the years to mean “useless”. 
So if Pakistan ever bought it then it would operate a very useful thing but would keep calling it useless.

Also makes sense why the word Bekar means useless in Urdu today because tec A bachelor is useless in the sense that no wife or children to support.

But I dither

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## mudas777

Trango Towers said:


> These helicopter sanctions have been a blessing. America thinks its slowing Pakistan down and making it weak. Actually America is helping us stand on our feet.
> Thank Allah for sanctions. Thank Allah for the snake America and its zionista fascists masters



It shut the mouths of our US suckers too but they keep on appearing from behind the different doors.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

R Wing said:


> What do you think we should do?
> 
> And you've hit the nail on the head.


I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.

Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.

I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).

I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) *except for Pakistan*.

Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if _someone_ asked...

At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for _any_ new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?












PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.
> 
> Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.
> 
> I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).
> 
> I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) *except for Pakistan*.
> 
> Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if _someone_ asked...
> 
> At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for _any_ new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?
> 
> View attachment 799191
> 
> 
> View attachment 799192
> 
> 
> PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.


In fact TAI's strongest hold is on UAVs and choppers. And, Turkey is working with Ukraine to have a JV on turbo engines. So, TAI wants to have local and Ukranian engines for 6 and 10 ton choppers, respectively, as an immediate solution. Now, 6 ton local engine for utitility, and 10 ton Ukranian engine for combat choppers are getting readied for the Turkish forces as the first step. PAA can leverage this...

IA has fielded 10-ton Apaches with much fanfare! Now, it's PA's turn to return the surprise....

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## Sayfullah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.



A while back when our army chief went Ukraine, a Ukrainian newspaper said we are interested in Ukrainian tank and helicopter engines. The tank engines made sense but the helicopter engines didn’t. Could it be were directly going to the Ukrainians to get helicopter engines for t629 if we are actually considering it?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> A while back when our army chief went Ukraine, a Ukrainian newspaper said we are interested in Ukrainian tank and helicopter engines. The tank engines made sense but the helicopter engines didn’t. Could it be were directly going to the Ukrainians to get helicopter engines for t629 if we are actually considering it?


The helicopter engines could be for the Mi-17/171s and Mi-38s.

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## R Wing

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.
> 
> Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.
> 
> I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).
> 
> I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) *except for Pakistan*.
> 
> Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if _someone_ asked...
> 
> At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for _any_ new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?
> 
> View attachment 799191
> 
> 
> View attachment 799192
> 
> 
> PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.



Excellent, as always. Thank you!

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## denel

araz said:


> I understand fully what you are saying. I understand that at best our attack Helo requirement is 60 to 80 units max. I understand that at this rate you will not go for anything with local input. My idea was:
> A. For the Turks to share production facilities which would be sensible as our labour costs are much lower as compared to the Turks. So we manufacture some components, perhaps the air frame (or parts of it) for us, the Turks and any other vendors:who want the helo.
> B. Use a common platform basis for civilian use which would make enough numbers to make the project worth while.
> Is there any evidence of this happening. In short NO. Is it a viable project? I would say keeping our combined needs in mind it would be.
> This is the only way we would be able to get things going to establish something locally.
> As to the Italians, we will not be able to make enough units on our own for it to be financially viable. This is:why the common needs of Pakistan and Turkey make the deal viable. There is no right or wrong here and a lot of imponderables but at least to me it makes sense.
> A



Araz

Very good post. I concur with most of your input however there should have been a concerted blueprint for 2 areas which can share commonalities e.g. medium lift helo plus gunship. We did that same approach for Oryx and Rooivalk. Given TAI has already progressing along similar lines, there needs to be a serious soul searching for long term which continues to be missed.

Back in mid 90's Rooivalk was a serious contender for Turkish gunship but both the americans and Europeans scuttled it; i see the same play happening by the US industry as well once more. 

Chinese solution may be a solution in the interim but for a comprehensive gunship/medium helo - that remains solved for unless the pumas will be replaced by Mi17s entirely or a package of gunships/medium lift from TAI.

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## Pak_Sher

ARMalik said:


> Can't Believe that the whole deal went down the drains due to engines ! Freaking hell, are helicopter engines that complicated?? I wouldn't have though so.


Engine is the main component of the helicopter


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## xbat

Pak_Sher said:


> Engine is the main component of the helicopter


actually no, for a helicopter; transmission and rotor are much important than engine

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.
> 
> Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.
> 
> I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).
> 
> I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) *except for Pakistan*.
> 
> Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if _someone_ asked...
> 
> At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for _any_ new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?
> 
> View attachment 799191
> 
> 
> View attachment 799192
> 
> 
> PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.


I beg to differ Bilal. First, Turks have a requirement for a heavy gunship to replace their AH-1Ws. The T-129s replace their AH-1F/S Cobras only. 

Also, the Bell 412s are actually not that old and we have bought some newer Hips as well over the years. The Pumas however do need to go.


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## Cool_Soldier

They made that decision to get stuff H 1Z1 from USA because it payment was payable from Funds that USA supposed to give give as Collation Supports Funds.
We didn't try to buy when US refused to use that fund and asked for cash.

In Second Case, T-129 , we had a hope that Turkey being closed to USA might be able to resolve engine issue for third party sale and definitely some surety was given us by Turkish companies too.
However, Things were not resolved as expected initially and deal was stuck but still we are hoping that either alternative engine or future homemade Turkish engine will pave the way for this helicopter tp PAA.


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## ARMalik

Well Turkey has too much *fake ego*, otherwise a *JV between China, Turkey, Pakistan *would have produced a good product by now including the engines. China obviously has its strengths, but is missing a few bits here and there, which is where Turkey has the know-how. Too much BullShi.t Egos and not enough common sense I guess. I blame the Turks for not compromising and becoming too cocky resulting in a FAILED Export Project.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> I beg to differ Bilal. First, Turks have a requirement for a heavy gunship to replace their AH-1Ws. The T-129s replace their AH-1F/S Cobras only.
> 
> Also, the Bell 412s are actually not that old and we have bought some newer Hips as well over the years. The Pumas however do need to go.


You're right, but you're referring to the T929, which is a 9-10-ton attack helicopter.

The T629 is a 6-ton design similar to the T129 (albeit a little heavier). However, the Turkish Armed Forces don't have a requirement for it. TAI said they're just waiting for some interest before continuing its development. I actually suspect that TAI is waiting for the military version of TEI's TS1400 turboshaft engine as the ideal target buyer (i.e. Pakistan) would want an ITAR-free system.

You're right about the Bell 412EPs too. However, since the Pumas are old, I think the system replacing those would also replace the Bell 412EPs later.

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## KaiserX

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're right, but you're referring to the T929, which is a 9-10-ton attack helicopter.
> 
> The T629 is a 6-ton design similar to the T129 (albeit a little heavier). However, the Turkish Armed Forces don't have a requirement for it. TAI said they're just waiting for some interest before continuing its development. I actually suspect that TAI is waiting for the military version of TEI's TS1400 turboshaft engine as the ideal target buyer (i.e. Pakistan) would want an ITAR-free system.
> 
> You're right about the Bell 412EPs too. However, since the Pumas are old, I think the system replacing those would also replace the Bell 412EPs later.



Unfortunatley we have seen our generals lack any sort of vision. Helicopters are amongst the most important asset for Pakistan, especially when you take into consideration their utility in disaster (Common in Pakistan) as well as counter terrorism operations (which Pakistan has huge experience with).

We have operated the cobras for over 3 decades and pretty much know the machine inside out. 80-90% of the cobra is similar to the bells. The Cobras are amongst the most simple/basic design and thus why it is very cheap/cost effective to operate/long lasting.

You would think a nation of 200+ more people (or subhumans) would have the vision to atleast produce a bell class helicopter at the minimum. Iran has done so, hell the gangis are as well. The only visions our generals have is to retire with a 1M+ USD plot in some posh defence housing community or move overseas by selling off their lands in pakistan.

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## Super Falcon

Our attack helicopter are in pretty bad shape and MI 18 are very old


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're right, but you're referring to the T929, which is a 9-10-ton attack helicopter.
> 
> The T629 is a 6-ton design similar to the T129 (albeit a little heavier). However, the Turkish Armed Forces don't have a requirement for it. TAI said they're just waiting for some interest before continuing its development. I actually suspect that TAI is waiting for the military version of TEI's TS1400 turboshaft engine as the ideal target buyer (i.e. Pakistan) would want an ITAR-free system.
> 
> You're right about the Bell 412EPs too. However, since the Pumas are old, I think the system replacing those would also replace the Bell 412EPs later.


Adding to my earlier comment
https://apple.news/AOJA5nxrPSKSHPF5WYxufgw

That idea even if a little exaggerated that loitering munitions are to gsupport what machine guns were to the battlefield?

Perhaps I can be hopeful @PanzerKiel that fresher minds are now pushing new thought(regardless of what it is) and creating a culture of innovation first within the military in general?

One can imagine a A-100 launching 20 carrier rockets with 5 loitering munitions each at a known column protected by a Tungska or other system and letting them wreak havoc. Forget TNWs, even with microwave countermeasures if one can cost effectively(I understand the irony of the term w.r.t the subject) create loitering swarms with a HoJ capability as well and create a famous dengue mosquito swarms of Pakistan then the enemy has to rethink maneuver warfare entirely.

Maybe the helis now stand much further back and much like the Bell Invictus launch these loitering munitions that are cued from a Shahpar or other system the front seater controls.

Perhaps the a future ATAK or Z-10 isn’t engaging tanks directly but softens them up from 15-20km out before moving in to mop up what remains with UGR(or LGRs) and the cannon.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Adding to my earlier comment
> https://apple.news/AOJA5nxrPSKSHPF5WYxufgw
> 
> That idea even if a little exaggerated that loitering munitions are to gsupport what machine guns were to the battlefield?
> 
> Perhaps I can be hopeful @PanzerKiel that fresher minds are now pushing new thought(regardless of what it is) and creating a culture of innovation first within the military in general?
> 
> One can imagine a A-100 launching 20 carrier rockets with 5 loitering munitions each at a known column protected by a Tungska or other system and letting them wreak havoc. Forget TNWs, even with microwave countermeasures if one can cost effectively(I understand the irony of the term w.r.t the subject) create loitering swarms with a HoJ capability as well and create a famous dengue mosquito swarms of Pakistan then the enemy has to rethink maneuver warfare entirely.
> 
> Maybe the helis now stand much further back and much like the Bell Invictus launch these loitering munitions that are cued from a Shahpar or other system the front seater controls.
> 
> Perhaps the a future ATAK or Z-10 isn’t engaging tanks directly but softens them up from 15-20km out before moving in to mop up what remains with UGR(or LGRs) and the cannon.


One big boon of loitering munitions (LOM) is dispersal and pre-deployment. You can build these munitions into multicell launch canisters and load them onto a Hilux. Heck, even a donkey can potentially pull a canister. You could send these launchers to the front in advance of any conflict and activate an attack within hours or even minutes of being told to attack.

However, if the future attack helicopter's role is more along the lines of what you describe (Bell Invictus), then I think the required platform could be fairly small and lightweight. No more than 6-tons IMHO. Ironically, Pakistan could take a stab at its own original project. The core inputs that could work are actually available to us via COTS (e.g. PT6C), we'd just need an experienced designer to pull it together.

IMO...South Africa's Paramount Group is such a company. Fun fact: One of the companies they absorbed (ATE) had actually proposed a lightweight attack helicopter to the world market. It was to draw on COTS inputs. I think the team that proposed this project eventually developed the Mwari. So, they seem to know what they're talking about...

This was the proposal: 'New Attack Helicopter'

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You're right, but you're referring to the T929, which is a 9-10-ton attack helicopter.
> 
> The T629 is a 6-ton design similar to the T129 (albeit a little heavier). However, the Turkish Armed Forces don't have a requirement for it. TAI said they're just waiting for some interest before continuing its development. I actually suspect that TAI is waiting for the military version of TEI's TS1400 turboshaft engine as the ideal target buyer (i.e. Pakistan) would want an ITAR-free system.
> 
> You're right about the Bell 412EPs too. However, since the Pumas are old, I think the system replacing those would also replace the Bell 412EPs later.


Ah you are right, I was thinking of the T929

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One big boon of loitering munitions (LOM) is dispersal and pre-deployment. You can build these munitions into multicell launch canisters and load them onto a Hilux. Heck, even a donkey can potentially pull a canister. You could send these launchers to the front in advance of any conflict and activate an attack within hours or even minutes of being told to attack.
> 
> However, if the future attack helicopter's role is more along the lines of what you describe (Bell Invictus), then I think the required platform could be fairly small and lightweight. No more than 6-tons IMHO. Ironically, Pakistan could take a stab at its own original project. The core inputs that could work are actually available to us via COTS (e.g. PT6C), we'd just need an experienced designer to pull it together.
> 
> IMO...South Africa's Paramount Group is such a company. Fun fact: One of the companies they absorbed (ATE) had actually proposed a lightweight attack helicopter to the world market. It was to draw on COTS inputs. I think the team that proposed this project eventually developed the Mwari. So, they seem to know what they're talking about...
> 
> This was the proposal: 'New Attack Helicopter'
> 
> View attachment 799576


The other aspect that comes with that is economies of scale. If you have a loitering munition you can mass produce that goes on multiple platforms then you can think about swarm logic where dispensing systems hit mechanized formations from different axis and altitudes.

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## python-000

matter is that what we got...!!!


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## dBSPL

As I understand from here, Pakistani defense enthusiasts are uncomfortable with the continuation of the T-129 project, as they have not seen any progress, and they suggest alternative sources such as Russian and Chinese.

As someone who follows the subject from the outside, the following question comes to my mind: So then why doesn't Pakistan take a concrete step and turn to alternatives? May the equation may not be as simple as set up here.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

dBSPL said:


> As I understand from here, Pakistani defense enthusiasts are uncomfortable with the continuation of the T-129 project, as they have not seen any progress, and they suggest alternative sources such as Russian and Chinese.
> 
> As someone who follows the subject from the outside, the following question comes to my mind: So then why doesn't Pakistan take a concrete step and turn to alternatives? May the equation may not be as simple as set up here.


Basically what Pakistan does and what Pak Def enthusiasts want aren't always the same. I suspect the PAA may not be going for another attack helicopter because, well, they don't have the cash for it. They ordered the T129 on a flexible installment basis (thanks to the Turkish gov't). It's very possible that the PAA (to retain that financing arrangement) simply transferred the focus from T129 to the T629 (if ITAR-free). We won't hear of anything until the military-grade TS1400 is ready.

That said, for what it's worth, I heard credible claims of the PAA testing Z-10ME.

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## iLION12345_1

dBSPL said:


> As I understand from here, Pakistani defense enthusiasts are uncomfortable with the continuation of the T-129 project, as they have not seen any progress, and they suggest alternative sources such as Russian and Chinese.
> 
> As someone who follows the subject from the outside, the following question comes to my mind: So then why doesn't Pakistan take a concrete step and turn to alternatives? May the equation may not be as simple as set up here.


I think you’re interpreting it the wrong way, nobody is uncomfortable with the continuation of T-129 nor does anyone have any issues with the progress of the Turkish defense industry , the Turkish engine is actually not delayed, it’s timeline is quite normal (so far at least), its just that the normal timeline for that engine to be ready is too long for for Pakistan according to many, and I’d be inclined to agree, since the Pakistani AH-1F fleet is getting very old. 
Also, by the time said engine is ready, the T-129B itself will be needing some upgrades (T-129C? Or maybe T-629 is what I’m thinking of) to stay relevant against competitors (Italian and Chinese),

There are no Russian alternatives at the moment for Pakistan, the only realistic alternative is Z-10ME, and the reason for delay in procurement could be anything from funds (as Bilal mentioned above, the payment scheme for the T-129s was very attractive) to future plans with T-129/T-629 that we may not be aware of. But to be clear, the interest shown in Z-10M/ME was just as much as T-129. Imo just the basic performance difference between the types (Z-10M<T-129B<Z-10ME) also played a part in the earlier decision apart from the funding.

But The _*only*_ reason Pakistan didn’t get the T-129 is because the US blocked them _*specifically *_ for Pakistan, Turkey was not at fault nor are the helicopters held back because of the Turkish defense industry. So that should be clear to all Pakistani posters as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iLION12345_1 said:


> I think you’re interpreting it the wrong way, nobody is uncomfortable with the continuation of T-129 nor does anyone have any issues with the progress of the Turkish defense industry , the Turkish engine is actually not delayed, it’s timeline is quite normal (so far at least), its just that the normal timeline for that engine to be ready is too long for for Pakistan according to many, and I’d be inclined to agree, since the Pakistani AH-1F fleet is getting very old.
> Also, by the time said engine is ready, the T-129B itself will be needing some upgrades (T-129C? Or maybe T-629 is what I’m thinking of) to stay relevant against competitors (Italian and Chinese),
> 
> There are no Russian alternatives at the moment for Pakistan, the only realistic alternative is Z-10ME, and the reason for delay in procurement could be anything from funds (as Bilal mentioned above, the payment scheme for the T-129s was very attractive) to future plans with T-129/T-629 that we may not be aware of. But to be clear, the interest shown in Z-10M/ME was just as much as T-129. Imo just the basic performance difference between the types (Z-10M<T-129B<Z-10ME) also played a part in the earlier decision apart from the funding.
> 
> But The _*only*_ reason Pakistan didn’t get the T-129 is because the US blocked them _*specifically *_ for Pakistan, Turkey was not at fault nor are the helicopters held back because of the Turkish defense industry. So that should be clear to all Pakistani posters as well.


It's also worth noting that the AH-1Z was the only platform that excelled in every area. Otherwise, both the T-129 and Z-10M had trade-offs. The Z-10M lost the original tender because it had more trade-offs than the T-129. However, the Z-10ME solved the Z-10M's main issues. IMO, if the PAA isn't ordering it now, then the obstacle is a lack of money more so than anything else.

But to be frank, if the PAA could have its way in ideal terms, it would've gone for an all AH-1Z fleet.

From its sand-filtering, hot-temperature performance, salt-erosion-proofing, payload, range, maintainability, and _even_ acquisition cost, the AH-1Z was absolutely amazing. Moreover, the UH-1Y would've been the go-to utility helicopter (thanks 85%+ commonality with the AH-1Z) for replacing the Puma's as well. You couldn't get a better deal for $45 m all-in per pop for both types. If not for the threat of sanctions, our entire helicopter fleet would be American today and in the future.

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## sparten

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> t's also worth noting that the AH-1Z was the only platform that excelled in every area. Otherwise, both the T-129 and Z-10M had trade-offs. The Z-10M lost the original tender because it had more trade-offs than the T-129. However, the Z-10ME solved the Z-10M's main issues. IMO, if the PAA isn't ordering it now, then the obstacle is a lack of money more so than anything else.
> 
> But to be frank, if the PAA could have its way in ideal terms, it would've gone for an all AH-1Z fleet.
> 
> From its sand-filtering, hot-temperature performance, salt-erosion-proofing, payload, range, maintainability, and _even_ acquisition cost, the AH-1Z was absolutely amazing. Moreover, the UH-1Y would've been the go-to utility helicopter (thanks 85%+ commonality with the AH-1Z) for replacing the Puma's as well. You couldn't get a better deal for $45 m all-in per pop for both types. If not for the threat of sanctions, our entire helicopter fleet would be American today and in the future.


We need a Super-7/FC1 project for the PAA. T-129 can be that.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's also worth noting that the AH-1Z was the only platform that excelled in every area. Otherwise, both the T-129 and Z-10M had trade-offs. The Z-10M lost the original tender because it had more trade-offs than the T-129. However, the Z-10ME solved the Z-10M's main issues. IMO, if the PAA isn't ordering it now, then the obstacle is a lack of money more so than anything else.
> 
> But to be frank, if the PAA could have its way in ideal terms, it would've gone for an all AH-1Z fleet.
> 
> From its sand-filtering, hot-temperature performance, salt-erosion-proofing, payload, range, maintainability, and _even_ acquisition cost, the AH-1Z was absolutely amazing. Moreover, the UH-1Y would've been the go-to utility helicopter (thanks 85%+ commonality with the AH-1Z) for replacing the Puma's as well. You couldn't get a better deal for $45 m all-in per pop for both types. If not for the threat of sanctions, our entire helicopter fleet would be American today and in the future.


They just had to pay for it out of pocket

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## Battlion25

dBSPL said:


> As I understand from here, Pakistani defense enthusiasts are uncomfortable with the continuation of the T-129 project, as they have not seen any progress, and they suggest alternative sources such as Russian and Chinese.
> 
> As someone who follows the subject from the outside, the following question comes to my mind: So then why doesn't Pakistan take a concrete step and turn to alternatives? May the equation may not be as simple as set up here.



I agree with this suggestion


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## Polestar 2

dBSPL said:


> As I understand from here, Pakistani defense enthusiasts are uncomfortable with the continuation of the T-129 project, as they have not seen any progress, and they suggest alternative sources such as Russian and Chinese.
> 
> As someone who follows the subject from the outside, the following question comes to my mind: So then why doesn't Pakistan take a concrete step and turn to alternatives? May the equation may not be as simple as set up here.


The conclusion I can get is , attack helo is already not a priority for PA. With rise of UCAV, they can loiter longer, no manned meaning no casualty. Cheap to operate. The more and more capable UCAV introduce meaning, they can carry more censor and more weapon payload to make them almost as capable as attack helo. 

The very fact PA purchase CH-4 and CH-5 from China more or less proves this point, they can fly much higher attitude, faster speed, long loiter time.

Without TA-129, it wouldn't affect too much of PA anti-insurgent or terrorism doctrine. If TA-129 is here, its bonus.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> They just had to pay for it out of pocket


Yep, but it wouldn't surprise me if all this was more of a GHQ decision than a PAA decision. As I said before, it'll be interesting to see how things shape up once this GHQ retires. The PAA could simply be stalling. It's funny that the US literally stored our AH-1Zs - not even remarket them. It could be that there's an understanding in place and once 'uncle jee' moves on the program will be back in motion. I'm sure the PAA took notice of the USMC AH-1Zs being stored too...

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One big boon of loitering munitions (LOM) is dispersal and pre-deployment. You can build these munitions into multicell launch canisters and load them onto a Hilux. Heck, even a donkey can potentially pull a canister. You could send these launchers to the front in advance of any conflict and activate an attack within hours or even minutes of being told to attack.
> 
> However, if the future attack helicopter's role is more along the lines of what you describe (Bell Invictus), then I think the required platform could be fairly small and lightweight. No more than 6-tons IMHO. Ironically, Pakistan could take a stab at its own original project. The core inputs that could work are actually available to us via COTS (e.g. PT6C), we'd just need an experienced designer to pull it together.
> 
> IMO...South Africa's Paramount Group is such a company. Fun fact: One of the companies they absorbed (ATE) had actually proposed a lightweight attack helicopter to the world market. It was to draw on COTS inputs. I think the team that proposed this project eventually developed the Mwari. So, they seem to know what they're talking about...
> 
> This was the proposal: 'New Attack Helicopter'
> 
> View attachment 799576


They definitely can absorb this work. There are 3 opportunities if we think about it.
1. Entire Puma fleet can be reworked into Oryx platform; as of now they picked up this work and are supporting the upgrade locally here.
2. They are also known for their upgrade work on Mi24; similarly same can be applied to the gunships that were recently procured from Russia.
3. A long term plan needs to be addressed for complete independence from either Turkey/China or a hybrid with complete in house partnership with Paramount.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> They definitely can absorb this work. There are 3 opportunities if we think about it.
> 1. Entire Puma fleet can be reworked into Oryx platform; as of now they picked up this work and are supporting the upgrade locally here.
> 2. They are also known for their upgrade work on Mi24; similarly same can be applied to the gunships that were recently procured from Russia.
> 3. A long term plan needs to be addressed for complete independence from either Turkey/China or a hybrid with complete in house partnership with Paramount.


For #3 I think a COTS-heavy approach is tenable. It just depends on the PAA's future requirements. If we are moving towards a UCAV-heavy environment, then payload and range may not matter as much. Rather, we'd need a platform that can manage loitering munitions and do unmanned air teaming with VTOL UCAVs. The latter can carry the payload and take on the risk, while the manned platform (as @SQ8 said) sits back.

If that is the approach, you can design a LO-focused design around 2 PT6Cs. I think Paramount Group could probably design the airframe. 

The real chokepoints are the critical inputs, like engine, rotors, transmission, etc. 

If the payload is intentionally capped at x2 ATGMs on each wing with a 20 mm gun, I don't think anyone would have an issue with releasing the engine and other critical inputs. 

In their eyes, these attack helicopters are just armed scouts, but in actuality, they're a critical management node for a vast loitering munition and VTOL UCAV network. Instead of weapons, you focus on the sensor suite, data links and ECM. Moreover, you don't even need this type of platform to do this work, so there's no point in blocking the inputs to Pakistan. However, we'd need some kind of tandem-seat attack helicopter capability, e.g., for COIN/CT or light CAS. 

Something like the Japanese OH-1, but bigger, could be really interesting:

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> For #3 I think a COTS-heavy approach is tenable. It just depends on the PAA's future requirements. If we are moving towards a UCAV-heavy environment, then payload and range may not matter as much. Rather, we'd need a platform that can manage loitering munitions and do unmanned air teaming with VTOL UCAVs. The latter can carry the payload and take on the risk, while the manned platform (as @SQ8 said) sits back.
> 
> If that is the approach, you can design a LO-focused design around 2 PT6Cs. I think Paramount Group could probably design the airframe.
> 
> The real chokepoints are the critical inputs, like engine, rotors, transmission, etc.
> 
> If the payload is intentionally capped at x2 ATGMs on each wing with a 20 mm gun, I don't think anyone would have an issue with releasing the engine and other critical inputs.
> 
> In their eyes, these attack helicopters are just armed scouts, but in actuality, they're a critical management node for a vast loitering munition and VTOL UCAV network. Instead of weapons, you focus on the sensor suite, data links and ECM. Moreover, you don't even need this type of platform to do this work, so there's no point in blocking the inputs to Pakistan. However, we'd need some kind of tandem-seat attack helicopter capability, e.g., for COIN/CT or light CAS.
> 
> Something like the Japanese OH-1, but bigger, could be really interesting:
> 
> View attachment 799958


Correct; the airframe is doable as well as all the systems within. The question will be to source the remaining. Knowing Paramount, they are masters at sourcing everything under the sun.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Can someone remind me please exactly why the US has blocked export of T-129 ATAK to Pakistan but its perfectly fine to be exported to the Phillipines?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469634880707432451

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## lcloo

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Can someone remind me please exactly why the US has blocked export of T-129 ATAK to Pakistan but its perfectly fine to be exported to the Phillipines?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469634880707432451


Because US is trying hard to get Philippines to their side to contain China in South China Sea. They have been trying vey hard to get ASEAN countries to choose side against China.

In South Asia, Indian is now a very useful pawn for US to contain China in Indian Ocean as well as in South West region of China. Pakistan will not stand against China thus has no value to US's interest in South Asia, and US lead NATO forces were already pulling out from Afghanistan when US decided to stop the T-129 deal between Turkey and Pakistan.

If you are not a US pawn in their global chess game, you don't get the carrot.

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## vi-va

lcloo said:


> Because US is trying hard to get Philippines to their side to contain China in South China Sea. They have been trying vey hard to get ASEAN countries to choose side against China.
> 
> In South Asia, Indian is now a very useful pawn for US to contain China in Indian Ocean as well as in South West region of China. Pakistan will not stand against China thus has no value to US's interest in South Asia, and US lead NATO forces were already pulling out from Afghanistan when US decided to stop the T-129 deal between Turkey and Pakistan.
> 
> If you are not a US pawn in their global chess game, you don't get the carrot.


Difficulties of ASEAN countries are: Even some of them have issues with China, their best interest replies on being neutral.

China obviously has a friendly foreign policy as long as other nations keep neutral.
On the other hand, an eye for an eye foreign policy will be applied if other nations are hostile toward China.

Philippines had relatively good relationship with China before 2013, until *Benigno Aquino III* started opportunism foreign policy, betting on US.

What benefit did Philippines get? Lost control over islands in SCS.

India is the same old story. BJP/Modi adopted opportunism and aggressive foreign policy against both Pakistan and China.

What benefit did India get? Lost control over 1000 sq km land in Ladakh.

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## Shabi1

End of the T-129 saga



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478686165498839043

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## SD 10

Shabi1 said:


> End of the T-129 saga
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478686165498839043


At last......


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## Ali_Baba

Shabi1 said:


> End of the T-129 saga
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478686165498839043



A shame - but Pakistan has waited long enough to upgrade it's attack helicopters. This also means that Pakistan has "moved" on from the AH-1Zs and the Americans will need to find something new to do with them..

I am sure PA will evaluate the T-929 when it comes online and that can form the higher end of the mix. There is a lesson for Turkieye in there aswell somewhere - ie make your products ITAR free from the outset !!!!

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478694208533929985

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## peagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Can someone remind me please exactly why the US has blocked export of T-129 ATAK to Pakistan but its perfectly fine to be exported to the Phillipines?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469634880707432451



Because they have been trying to keep Pakistan down and on it's knees throughout our history.

Sanctions from 1965 to 1982,
Sanctions from 1990 to 2002,
unspoken sanctions since the second Obama term, so nearly a decade and continuing.

Pakistan has not developed with the help of other countries, it has develop despite the obstacles. If Pakistan had same access as other countries, such as India, we would be in a heck of a better position.
You cannot control how you get treated, you can only control how you handle yourself. I think we've done rather well, if we stop our infighting, we would do a lot better.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Critical statements specific to Pakistan from TAI CEO KOTİL*
> News CenterAugust 5, 2020
> 1 minute reading time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook Twitter LinkedIn VKontakte Share via Email
> Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ) CEO Prof. Dr. Temel KOTİL was a guest of the TV channel In Focus South Asia and made critical statements about Pakistan.
> Emphasizing that Turkey and Pakistan are two great nations and that they should work together, KOTİL said, “We have several helicopter programs and 5 of them are domestic. We continue to work on the engine to be used in the T129 ATAK helicopter. This developed engine will also be used in Turkey's future helicopter programs. *We will solve the engine problems and deliver 30 helicopters - 30 T129 ATAK helicopters exported to Pakistan - to Pakistan.* Also, we are working to carry out more different studies in Pakistan. *Not just T129 ATAK; T625 GÖKBEY, T629 and Heavy Class Attack Helicopter*…” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> Stating that there has been a direct connection between the Presidency of Defense Industries and the Presidency in the recent period, and the developments in the sector are reported directly to the President, Prof. Dr. Temel KOTİL referred to the Defense Industry Support Fund (SSDF), which is a special fund for the defense industry.
> Stating that there should be more cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan, KOTİL said, “We are building a new technology center in the Pakistan Aviation Complex (PAC) Kamra. There should be more relations between Turkey and Pakistan. There are many areas where we can work together, such as helicopter projects, National Combat Aircraft (MMU), HÜRJET Jet Trainer, HÜRKUŞ and Mushshak.” made statements.
> 
> 
> 
> T129 ATAK (Pakistan)
> _Between Turkey and Pakistan; The 1.5 billion dollar agreement covering the export of 30 T-129 ATAK Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters, produced by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TUSAŞ), was signed in 2018. It is aimed to equip the Pakistan Armed Forces with ATAK helicopters within the scope of this purchase, which is the second largest export agreement made with a single item in the history of the Turkish Defense Industry._


Look at the date the article was published.


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## Sulman Badshah

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Look at the date the article was published.


Thanks , didn't see that one


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## beijingwalker

*Pakistan junks deal for Turkish helicopters, 'hopeful' of getting Chinese gunships*
Web Desk Updated: January 06, 2022 15:42 IST





T-129 helicopters | Turkish Aerospace Industries


The Pakistani military confirmed on Wednesday that a $1.5 billion deal to buy 30 attack helicopters from Turkey had been abandoned.

Major General Babar Iftikhar, director general of Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), the military’s PR wing, spoke about the attack helicopter deal during a press conference on Wednesday.

Responding to a question, Iftikhar said, “As far as the Turkish deal is concerned, we have moved on”. He confirmed Pakistan was in negotiations with China for attack helicopters, noting “hopefully, we will be getting some gunships [from them]”.

In 2018, Pakistan agreed to buy 30 T-129 'ATAK' helicopters made by Turkish Aerospace Industries. The T-129 is an upgraded version of the Italian-designed A-129 helicopter. The T-129 has a gun and can fire rockets and missiles. The Pakistani deal was the first export contract for the T-129. 

The T-129 uses engines made by LHTEC, a joint venture of Rolls Royce and Honeywell, a US company. The Donald Trump administration had declined to give LHTEC export clearance for selling the engines to Pakistan.

The US refusal to allow export of the LHTEC engines had been linked to the spat over Turkey's purchase of the Russian S-400 missile system.

Turkey had made considerable efforts to persuade Washington to change its mind. In December 2020, media reports claimed the Turkish government had hired Capitol Counsel, a lobbying firm, to aid in efforts to obtain export clearances for the LHTEC engines.

The Turkish government had also embarked on a project to develop an indigenous engine for the T-129, but this was unlikely to be ready before 2025, according to reports.

Pakistan had given extensions to Turkey to fulfil the contract.

The T-129 was selected by Pakistan to replace its aging fleet of US AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters. In 2015, Pakistan sought the purchase of 15 AH-1Z 'Viper' attack helicopters from Bell Helicopters, a US firm, at an estimated cost of $952 million. However, the transfer of the AH-1Z fleet to Pakistan was embargoed in June 2018 after the Donald Trump administration announced a freeze on military aid to Islamabad.

Since 2020, there have been reports, Pakistan could consider the Z-10ME, an upgradedversion of the Chinese Z-10 helicopter.Compared with earlier model Z-10s, the Z-10ME is equipped with upgraded engines, sensors and self-defence equipment.

Interestingly, Pakistan had conducted trials of both the T-129 and earlier model Z-10s in 2015-2016. Reports suggested the Chinese helicopter had under-performing engines, which minimised its effectiveness in carrying a maximum load of weapons in operations in high-altitude areas.










Pakistan junks deal for Turkish helicopters, 'hopeful' of getting Chinese gunships


The T-129 was selected by Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1 Cobra choppers




www.theweek.in

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## Dariush the Great

Perhaps Turkey did not get the permission from the US to sell to Pakistan.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Dariush the Great said:


> Perhaps Turkey did not get the permission from the US to sell to Pakistan.


Indeed, Turkey did not get the permission to export it to Pakistan but it got permission to export it to the Phillipines though.

The US is out to deny Pakistan US military technology.

On the other hand, I've not heard whether any Z-10 MEs have even been trialled in Pakistan yet like three Z-10s were delivered, rigorously tested and eventually rejected.

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## m52k85

peagle said:


> Because they have been trying to keep Pakistan down and on it's knees throughout our history.
> 
> Sanctions from 1965 to 1982,
> Sanctions from 1990 to 2002,
> unspoken sanctions since the second Obama term, so nearly a decade and continuing.
> 
> Pakistan has not developed with the help of other countries, it has develop despite the obstacles. If Pakistan had same access as other countries, such as India, we would be in a heck of a better position.
> You cannot control how you get treated, you can only control how you handle yourself. I think we've done rather well, if we stop our infighting, we would do a lot better.


Wow more like sanction since Pakistan's first major war in 1965 except two stretches during the 2 Afghan wars. Some friends they are.

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## The Eagle

Not the end of the road. I am sure we are keeping an eye on Turkish development of Heavy Class. T-129 is not available due to American engine but in heavier class; China & Turkiye are offering an option and not just PAA but PN as well, surely looking at it.

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## Ali_Baba

Pakistan cancels Turkish chopper deal amid US license deadlock


Pakistan has reportedly ditched a $1.5 billion deal to acquire a total of 30 attack helicopters from Turkey due to a U.S. embargo on the choppers’...




www.dailysabah.com





A sahme but hopefully Pakistan and Turkey can work together on the T-929 helicopter!!!!


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## Fioril

Ali_Baba said:


> Pakistan cancels Turkish chopper deal amid US license deadlock
> 
> 
> Pakistan has reportedly ditched a $1.5 billion deal to acquire a total of 30 attack helicopters from Turkey due to a U.S. embargo on the choppers’...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailysabah.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A sahme but hopefully Pakistan and Turkey can work together on the T-929 helicopter!!!!


There are some Turkish defence accounts on twitter that are claiming that Pakistan has not opted out of the deal yet.


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## Polestar 2

Fioril said:


> There are some Turkish defence accounts on twitter that are claiming that Pakistan has not opted out of the deal yet.


Twitter account? More or less sums up the desperation. The deal for PA T-129K is dead. Unless some can really promise US engine or Turkey engine are ready by end of this year.

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## HRK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479152657562578950
Translation:
Pakistan:* “We did not give up on the ATAK purchase” - Pakistani military and diplomatic officials made a statement to Savunma SanayiST about the Pakistani ATAK Program.*

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## Scorpiooo

T129 deal is totally dead or it put on hold for future version as loan is from turkish side


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## Polestar 2

HRK said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479152657562578950
> Translation:
> Pakistan:* “We did not give up on the ATAK purchase” - Pakistani military and diplomatic officials made a statement to Savunma SanayiST about the Pakistani ATAK Program.*


This is just a diplomatic way to say the deal is dead. I am sure Pakistan military sure want to work with Turkish military defense in future. By outright declared the T-129K deal dead will embarrassed Turkish side. Using such term will ensure both side end this saga in a calmly manner.

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## dBSPL

As far as I know, TEI TS-1400 continues within the scope of the domestic utility helicopter GOKBEY. The GÖKBEY project is a program that prioritizes the civilian market, and therefore proceeds with the EASA civil aviation certification works. If only military use had been envisioned for GOKBEY, deliveries had already begun by now.

A mock-up called the T-629 was shown, but it was stated that it would be an unmanned/hybrid attack helicopter concept. So, both the T-929 and the aforementioned 629 differ from the current ATAK-1(T-129 variants) program in terms of concept, structure and subsystems.

The agreement with Pakistan is about the T-129 phase-2 system. In other words, if there is no development on LHTEC engine sets, the agreement is either canceled or revised as the supply of another platform. The first is more likely.

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## HRK

Polestar 2 said:


> This is just a diplomatic way to say the deal is dead. I am sure Pakistan military sure want to work with Turkish military defense in future. By outright declared the T-129K deal dead will embarrassed Turkish side. Using such term will ensure both side end this saga in a calmly manner.


plz read the article attached in the tweet


dBSPL said:


> The first is more likely.


maybe you are right but in my opinion probability of occurrence of second option is higher


> *Military and diplomatic officials made a statement to SavunmaSanayiST.com* regarding the aforementioned statement, which was covered in the Turkish and Pakistani media. In the statement made by the authorities; It was stated that Pakistan did not give up on the purchase of 30 TAI T129 ATAK Helicopters from Turkey and that the aforementioned statements of the Pakistani Military Spokesperson were misunderstood. Turkey and Pakistan continue their close cooperation to bring the ATAK helicopter to the Pakistan Army.


link

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## nomi007

Why Turks are not try
*MTR MTR390 engine as an alternative.*
*which is also 1,450 shp*


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## Green Angel

I am sure Mi-28NP will be Finalized.......


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## merzifonlu

nomi007 said:


> Why Turks are not try
> *MTR MTR390 engine as an alternative.*
> *which is also 1,450 shp*





merzifonlu said:


> No engine restrictions by Italy. However, the transmission elements of the helicopter are purchased from Italy and they are adapted to the USA engine.
> 
> If you are going to install a new engine, it means you will get permission for a new transmission from Italy. If you say that you will use my own transmission, you have two options: a) Agreement with Italy. b) You do not agree and Italy will sue you in the international court.
> 
> Also, remember, even if an agreement is made with Italy, the compatibility of the new engine and new transmission will take a lot of time and money. And the T129 contract expires in 2028. It's not worth it.
> 
> Instead, "Let's design and manufacture the Gökbey Helicopter with new domestic engine and new domestic transmission. In this way, the necessary infrastructure for the T625 will be established." they said.


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## Ali_Baba

nomi007 said:


> MTR MTR390



Makes no sense - the Turks can buy the engines for themselves so they are not operationally affected and it is right now better for Turkey to develop her own engines rather have another source that can be sanctioned.


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## Sulman Badshah

As per Turkish president of defence industries SSB İsmail Demir , Engine export of ATAK 129 period is again extended









Pakistan’a T129 ATAK ihracatını ‘motor ihraç süreci’ uzattı


T.C. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı İsmail Demir, 2021 yılı değerlendirmesi ve 2022 projelerini aktarmak üzere Ankara'da televizyon ve gazete temsilcileri




www.defenceturk.net

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## SD 10

Sulman Badshah said:


> As per Turkish president of defence industries SSB İsmail Demir , Engine export of ATAK 129 period is again extended
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan’a T129 ATAK ihracatını ‘motor ihraç süreci’ uzattı
> 
> 
> T.C. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı İsmail Demir, 2021 yılı değerlendirmesi ve 2022 projelerini aktarmak üzere Ankara'da televizyon ve gazete temsilcileri
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenceturk.net


the curious case of forever extending engine deadline.................... What a deal we made!!!!!


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## Salza

In the age of drones, attack helicopters are quickly getting redundant infact in 20 years time, no one will built them that is why Pakistan is also playing a waiting game over T129s. Rather than investing so much on the engines for attack helicopters, I think it will be more fruitful for Turkey and other countries to invest much on drones engines.


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## HRK

Salza said:


> In the age of drones, attack helicopters are quickly getting redundant infact in 20 years time, no one will built them that is why Pakistan is also playing a waiting game over T129s. Rather than investing so much on the engines for attack helicopters, I think it will be more fruitful for Turkey and other countries to invest much on drones engines.


*or may be in 10 year time *Gunships will team up with drones, and any of the pilot will operate slow moving UCAV from Helicopter Man-Unmanned Teaming for Anti Armour and anti Artillery roles .....

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## Salza

HRK said:


> *or may be in 10 year time *Gunships will team up with drones, and any of the pilot will operate slow moving UCAV from Helicopter Man-Unmanned Teaming for Anti Armour and anti Artillery roles .....


 I see automation to take over these systems more. Even 7th generation fighter planes may well be pilotless.


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## dBSPL

Salza said:


> In the age of drones, attack helicopters are quickly getting redundant infact in 20 years time, no one will built them that is why Pakistan is also playing a waiting game over T129s. Rather than investing so much on the engines for attack helicopters, I think it will be more fruitful for Turkey and other countries to invest much on drones engines.


The armored reconnaissance and very low altidude-hovering CAS capabilities of attack helicopters and the unique advantages they provide to armies will continue for a long time. Since today's modern helicopters have much stronger power output than tactical UAVs, they can carry much more powerful electronic systems, SAR, electrooptics, countermeasure an even ea systems. Today, even the lightest class armored reconnaissance helicopter is operating with a minimum of 1 tonne ammunition.

A fixed-wing UAV that will carry 1 ton of ammunition can only operate at medium altitude. At low altitude, it becomes an easy target. And if you're not going to go up to the costs of a fighter jets; They cannot have high attack angles.

Another new approach is that UAVs and attack helicopters now share the same tactical screen. The image received by the UAV can be transmitted to the helicopter console in real time, likewise a helicopter can mark target; or a high-altitude and SAR-laden UAV may increase the helicopter's operational awareness.

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## Salza

dBSPL said:


> Another new approach is that UAVs and attack helicopters now share the same tactical screen. The image received by the UAV can be transmitted to the helicopter console in real time, likewise a helicopter can mark target; or a high-altitude and SAR-laden UAV may increase the helicopter's operational awareness.


What you are saying is limitation of technology as of now. What I meant is, in 20 years time, sophisticated , AI enabled drones will evolve into something which will cater everything you have mentioned above within themselves. Yes for now, attack helicopters are better weapon systems but gradually they will be phased out by more powerful drones.

Attack drones systems are the new doctrine in wars which every powerful army is adopting.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

No news?


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## Readerdefence

Hi latest with ATAK is there isn’t any for PA whatever been manufactured for Pakistan been exported or about to be to Philippines to some extent USA has taken care of Turkish loss of export to Pakistan by allowing them to export these to Philippines 🇵🇭 
until unless Turkey start manufacturing its own engine for ATAK no helicopter for Pakistan 
thank you

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## Path-Finder

​Authorized name announced: ATAK 2's engines will be produced in Turkey​






TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu announced that the Ukrainian engines planned to be used in the ATAK-II Helicopter will be produced in Turkey.

The Ukrainian origin engine of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II will be produced in Turkey. TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu, who was the guest of Rana Mubashir's program on the Pakistani Aaj channel with TAI General Manager Temel Kotil, announced that the engine of the T929, or ATAK II heavy class attack helicopter, will be produced in Turkey.

Upon the question, Demiroğlu stated that the T129 Atak helicopter is not completely domestic, but Ukrainian engines will be produced in Turkey in the T929 project. Since there is no domestic and national engine alternative, its engine comes from Ukraine. Temel Kotil stated in the past that the T929 will be equipped with 2500 hp engines and will fly in 2023.

*ATAK II delivery to TAF in 2025*​Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. General Manager Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil announced in A Haber's "Gendance Special" broadcast that 3 ATAK II attack helicopters would be delivered to the Land Forces Command in 2025.

Answering Defense Turk's questions after the Air and Space Vehicles Design Laboratory opening program in partnership with TAI and ITU, Temel Kotil announced that the naval version of the ATAK-II heavy class attack helicopter would be developed. Temel Kotil, *“Will there be a naval version of Atak and Gökbey for ANADOLU LHD? Do you have a calendar in this direction?” to our question, “For now, we are considering the marine version of the ATAK-II.” *had made a statement.

Temel Kotil had announced that the 11-ton ATAK II attack helicopter would start its engine and rotate its propellers in 2022. Kotil had previously announced that the engines of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II would come from Ukraine and that a contract was signed in this context. It was announced that the T929, that is, ATAK-II, is in the 11-ton class and can carry 1,500 kg of ammunition.


*T925 utility helicopter will fly in 2024*​Temel Kotil, who gave new information about the 10 ton Class Utility Helicopter, of which there is not much information, used the name T-925 in the past when talking about the helicopter.

In the last statement, Kotil stated that the T925 general purpose helicopter will have a capacity of 21 people and a ramp, and announced that the helicopter will have a joint power group with the 11-ton T-929 ATAK-II. The T925 helicopter, which will have a take-off weight of 11 tons, will have a capacity of 5 thousand horsepower (two engines).

The first flight date for the T-925 was stated as 2025, but Kotil pointed to the date of 18 March 2024 for the first flight. In the T925 helicopter, there will be an improved version of the avionics systems of the GÖKBEY helicopter and maybe.

With its components similar to GÖKBEY, especially development and production, and after delivery, the user will be facilitated in processes such as maintenance, maintenance and repair.

It is considered certain that the T925 utility helicopter will be used in TCG ANADOLU together with the T929 ATAK II.

Currently, there is an approach to deploying heavy class attack and utility helicopters on ANADOLU class and similar platforms. In addition to the heavy class higher ammunition / carrying capacity, they can perform tasks in more difficult sea conditions as platforms with high sea stance.









Yetkili isim duyurdu: ATAK 2 'nin motorları Türkiye'de üretilecek - Yeni Akit


TUSAŞ Helikopter Genel Müdür Yardımcısı Mehmet Demiroğlu, ATAK-II Helikopteri'nde kullanılması planlanan Ukrayna motorlarının Türkiye’de üretileceğini açıkladı.




www.yeniakit.com.tr






I beleive its wise that We look forward to the next evolution instead of T129!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> ​Authorized name announced: ATAK 2's engines will be produced in Turkey​
> View attachment 862666
> 
> 
> TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu announced that the Ukrainian engines planned to be used in the ATAK-II Helicopter will be produced in Turkey.
> 
> The Ukrainian origin engine of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II will be produced in Turkey. TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu, who was the guest of Rana Mubashir's program on the Pakistani Aaj channel with TAI General Manager Temel Kotil, announced that the engine of the T929, or ATAK II heavy class attack helicopter, will be produced in Turkey.
> 
> Upon the question, Demiroğlu stated that the T129 Atak helicopter is not completely domestic, but Ukrainian engines will be produced in Turkey in the T929 project. Since there is no domestic and national engine alternative, its engine comes from Ukraine. Temel Kotil stated in the past that the T929 will be equipped with 2500 hp engines and will fly in 2023.
> 
> *ATAK II delivery to TAF in 2025*​Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. General Manager Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil announced in A Haber's "Gendance Special" broadcast that 3 ATAK II attack helicopters would be delivered to the Land Forces Command in 2025.
> 
> Answering Defense Turk's questions after the Air and Space Vehicles Design Laboratory opening program in partnership with TAI and ITU, Temel Kotil announced that the naval version of the ATAK-II heavy class attack helicopter would be developed. Temel Kotil, *“Will there be a naval version of Atak and Gökbey for ANADOLU LHD? Do you have a calendar in this direction?” to our question, “For now, we are considering the marine version of the ATAK-II.” *had made a statement.
> 
> Temel Kotil had announced that the 11-ton ATAK II attack helicopter would start its engine and rotate its propellers in 2022. Kotil had previously announced that the engines of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II would come from Ukraine and that a contract was signed in this context. It was announced that the T929, that is, ATAK-II, is in the 11-ton class and can carry 1,500 kg of ammunition.
> 
> 
> *T925 utility helicopter will fly in 2024*​Temel Kotil, who gave new information about the 10 ton Class Utility Helicopter, of which there is not much information, used the name T-925 in the past when talking about the helicopter.
> 
> In the last statement, Kotil stated that the T925 general purpose helicopter will have a capacity of 21 people and a ramp, and announced that the helicopter will have a joint power group with the 11-ton T-929 ATAK-II. The T925 helicopter, which will have a take-off weight of 11 tons, will have a capacity of 5 thousand horsepower (two engines).
> 
> The first flight date for the T-925 was stated as 2025, but Kotil pointed to the date of 18 March 2024 for the first flight. In the T925 helicopter, there will be an improved version of the avionics systems of the GÖKBEY helicopter and maybe.
> 
> With its components similar to GÖKBEY, especially development and production, and after delivery, the user will be facilitated in processes such as maintenance, maintenance and repair.
> 
> It is considered certain that the T925 utility helicopter will be used in TCG ANADOLU together with the T929 ATAK II.
> 
> Currently, there is an approach to deploying heavy class attack and utility helicopters on ANADOLU class and similar platforms. In addition to the heavy class higher ammunition / carrying capacity, they can perform tasks in more difficult sea conditions as platforms with high sea stance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yetkili isim duyurdu: ATAK 2 'nin motorları Türkiye'de üretilecek - Yeni Akit
> 
> 
> TUSAŞ Helikopter Genel Müdür Yardımcısı Mehmet Demiroğlu, ATAK-II Helikopteri'nde kullanılması planlanan Ukrayna motorlarının Türkiye’de üretileceğini açıkladı.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yeniakit.com.tr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I beleive its wise that We look forward to the next evolution instead of T129!


Turkish engines are the key. Without local engine it won't work. US and Europe are big blackmailers. They have double standards for Israel and other European countries and us. Pakistan, Turkey and other countries should join hands in development of engines and even if have to steal technology should do it but make engines on our own.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Turkish engines are the key. Without local engine it won't work. US and Europe are big blackmailers. They have double standards for Israel and other European countries and us. Pakistan, Turkey and other countries should join hands in development of engines and even if have to steal technology should do it but make engines on our own.


Hazrat, Derwaish Muffakir @Zarvan Its a Ukrainian engine and NOT a western engine!!! there won't be an issue. The Ukranian are indebted to to Turkey!

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat, Derwaish Muffakir @Zarvan Its a Ukrainian engine and NOT a western engine!!! there won't be an issue. The Ukranian are indebted to to Turkey!


Then take advantage and produce them in Turkey. Turkey should try to get engine technology of as many weapons as they can.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Then take advantage and produce them in Turkey. Turkey should try to get engine technology of as many weapons as they can.


Hazrat @Zarvan that's what is happening according to the newj. its not new news its few months old BUT it will be a ITAR free engine.

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## araz

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat, Derwaish Muffakir @Zarvan Its a Ukrainian engine and NOT a western engine!!! there won't be an issue. The Ukranian are indebted to to Turkey!


But what he is saying carries weight. The muslim world led by Turkey and later along with Pakistan needs to overcome this hurdle and produce the engines in house. It maybe practical to produce engines on one site but divide work at multiple participating sites to save costs. This model was what was proposed for T129 and may well be tried for T929.
A



Zarvan said:


> Turkish engines are the key. Without local engine it won't work. US and Europe are big blackmailers. They have double standards for Israel and other European countries and us. Pakistan, Turkey and other countries should join hands in development of engines and even if have to steal technology should do it but make engines on our own.


There maybe an attempt at hybrid solutions. At the moment it is not possible for Turkey to fully produce engines locally. I do not know where the hurdles are but it maybe a case of getting technologies from multiple providers to eventually produce a local variant. It is apparent to an outsider like me that Turkish engines are a good decade away if not more. As to EU/USA, they are safeguarding their own interests and billions of dollars of sunk investment in their industry.

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## Sayfullah

Pakistan should work with Turks to set up a helicopter industry in Pakistan. We can get a lot of tech from Turkey.


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## Signalian

Path-Finder said:


> Its a Ukrainian engine and NOT a western engine!!!


Ukraine is eastern Europe. what is western engine then ? France, Germany, USA ?



araz said:


> But what he is saying carries weight. The muslim world led by Turkey and later along with Pakistan needs to overcome this hurdle and produce the engines in house. It maybe practical to produce engines on one site but divide work at multiple participating sites to save costs. This model was what was proposed for T129 and may well be tried for T929.
> A
> 
> 
> There maybe an attempt at hybrid solutions. At the moment it is not possible for Turkey to fully produce engines locally. I do not know where the hurdles are but it maybe a case of getting technologies from multiple providers to eventually produce a local variant. It is apparent to an outsider like me that Turkish engines are a good decade away if not more. As to EU/USA, they are safeguarding their own interests and billions of dollars of sunk investment in their industry.


One has to see if current COIN Ops are affected due less Op hours/retirement of old AH-1's



Path-Finder said:


> ​Authorized name announced: ATAK 2's engines will be produced in Turkey​
> View attachment 862666
> 
> 
> TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu announced that the Ukrainian engines planned to be used in the ATAK-II Helicopter will be produced in Turkey.
> 
> The Ukrainian origin engine of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II will be produced in Turkey. TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu, who was the guest of Rana Mubashir's program on the Pakistani Aaj channel with TAI General Manager Temel Kotil, announced that the engine of the T929, or ATAK II heavy class attack helicopter, will be produced in Turkey.
> 
> Upon the question, Demiroğlu stated that the T129 Atak helicopter is not completely domestic, but Ukrainian engines will be produced in Turkey in the T929 project. Since there is no domestic and national engine alternative, its engine comes from Ukraine. Temel Kotil stated in the past that the T929 will be equipped with 2500 hp engines and will fly in 2023.
> 
> *ATAK II delivery to TAF in 2025*​Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. General Manager Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil announced in A Haber's "Gendance Special" broadcast that 3 ATAK II attack helicopters would be delivered to the Land Forces Command in 2025.
> 
> Answering Defense Turk's questions after the Air and Space Vehicles Design Laboratory opening program in partnership with TAI and ITU, Temel Kotil announced that the naval version of the ATAK-II heavy class attack helicopter would be developed. Temel Kotil, *“Will there be a naval version of Atak and Gökbey for ANADOLU LHD? Do you have a calendar in this direction?” to our question, “For now, we are considering the marine version of the ATAK-II.” *had made a statement.
> 
> Temel Kotil had announced that the 11-ton ATAK II attack helicopter would start its engine and rotate its propellers in 2022. Kotil had previously announced that the engines of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II would come from Ukraine and that a contract was signed in this context. It was announced that the T929, that is, ATAK-II, is in the 11-ton class and can carry 1,500 kg of ammunition.
> 
> 
> *T925 utility helicopter will fly in 2024*​Temel Kotil, who gave new information about the 10 ton Class Utility Helicopter, of which there is not much information, used the name T-925 in the past when talking about the helicopter.
> 
> In the last statement, Kotil stated that the T925 general purpose helicopter will have a capacity of 21 people and a ramp, and announced that the helicopter will have a joint power group with the 11-ton T-929 ATAK-II. The T925 helicopter, which will have a take-off weight of 11 tons, will have a capacity of 5 thousand horsepower (two engines).
> 
> The first flight date for the T-925 was stated as 2025, but Kotil pointed to the date of 18 March 2024 for the first flight. In the T925 helicopter, there will be an improved version of the avionics systems of the GÖKBEY helicopter and maybe.
> 
> With its components similar to GÖKBEY, especially development and production, and after delivery, the user will be facilitated in processes such as maintenance, maintenance and repair.
> 
> It is considered certain that the T925 utility helicopter will be used in TCG ANADOLU together with the T929 ATAK II.
> 
> Currently, there is an approach to deploying heavy class attack and utility helicopters on ANADOLU class and similar platforms. In addition to the heavy class higher ammunition / carrying capacity, they can perform tasks in more difficult sea conditions as platforms with high sea stance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yetkili isim duyurdu: ATAK 2 'nin motorları Türkiye'de üretilecek - Yeni Akit
> 
> 
> TUSAŞ Helikopter Genel Müdür Yardımcısı Mehmet Demiroğlu, ATAK-II Helikopteri'nde kullanılması planlanan Ukrayna motorlarının Türkiye’de üretileceğini açıkladı.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yeniakit.com.tr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I beleive its wise that We look forward to the next evolution instead of T129!


Can ATAK-II communicate with TB-2s and other UAVs through data link and assign tasks to them.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> Can ATAK-II communicate with TB-2s and other UAVs through data link and assign tasks to them.


tbh I think the Turks probably thought of that and are working towards it. Heck, they might do something crazier like design a special loitering munition that the ATAK-2 can launch and communicate with as both a mini scout and a stand-off weapon.

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## Path-Finder

Signalian said:


> Ukraine is eastern Europe. what is western engine then ? France, Germany, USA ?


 you must be aware of the issue with the yanks giving licence to Pakistan for T129 engines?

Ukraine is not like the west.


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## dBSPL

Outside from the T-129 export problem discussions, I can only say about the engine projects; just 10 years more and we will make this problem a thing of the past forever.

IDEF'23 will be the most important Turkish defense demonstration ever, not only for aviation engines, but also for a large number of different power groups that are currently under test activities which from 1800 hp tank engines to ramjet propulsion systems, and a wide variety of military propulsion systems. This is currently the most important focus for SSB' subsystem projects. You can find very detailed information about each sub-work area by searching Turkish defense forums on google.

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## dBSPL

Path-Finder said:


> ​Authorized name announced: ATAK 2's engines will be produced in Turkey​
> View attachment 862666
> 
> 
> TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu announced that the Ukrainian engines planned to be used in the ATAK-II Helicopter will be produced in Turkey.
> 
> The Ukrainian origin engine of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II will be produced in Turkey. TUSAŞ Helicopter Deputy General Manager Mehmet Demiroğlu, who was the guest of Rana Mubashir's program on the Pakistani Aaj channel with TAI General Manager Temel Kotil, announced that the engine of the T929, or ATAK II heavy class attack helicopter, will be produced in Turkey.
> 
> Upon the question, Demiroğlu stated that the T129 Atak helicopter is not completely domestic, but Ukrainian engines will be produced in Turkey in the T929 project. Since there is no domestic and national engine alternative, its engine comes from Ukraine. Temel Kotil stated in the past that the T929 will be equipped with 2500 hp engines and will fly in 2023.
> 
> *ATAK II delivery to TAF in 2025*​Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. General Manager Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil announced in A Haber's "Gendance Special" broadcast that 3 ATAK II attack helicopters would be delivered to the Land Forces Command in 2025.
> 
> Answering Defense Turk's questions after the Air and Space Vehicles Design Laboratory opening program in partnership with TAI and ITU, Temel Kotil announced that the naval version of the ATAK-II heavy class attack helicopter would be developed. Temel Kotil, *“Will there be a naval version of Atak and Gökbey for ANADOLU LHD? Do you have a calendar in this direction?” to our question, “For now, we are considering the marine version of the ATAK-II.” *had made a statement.
> 
> Temel Kotil had announced that the 11-ton ATAK II attack helicopter would start its engine and rotate its propellers in 2022. Kotil had previously announced that the engines of the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter ATAK-II would come from Ukraine and that a contract was signed in this context. It was announced that the T929, that is, ATAK-II, is in the 11-ton class and can carry 1,500 kg of ammunition.
> 
> 
> *T925 utility helicopter will fly in 2024*​Temel Kotil, who gave new information about the 10 ton Class Utility Helicopter, of which there is not much information, used the name T-925 in the past when talking about the helicopter.
> 
> In the last statement, Kotil stated that the T925 general purpose helicopter will have a capacity of 21 people and a ramp, and announced that the helicopter will have a joint power group with the 11-ton T-929 ATAK-II. The T925 helicopter, which will have a take-off weight of 11 tons, will have a capacity of 5 thousand horsepower (two engines).
> 
> The first flight date for the T-925 was stated as 2025, but Kotil pointed to the date of 18 March 2024 for the first flight. In the T925 helicopter, there will be an improved version of the avionics systems of the GÖKBEY helicopter and maybe.
> 
> With its components similar to GÖKBEY, especially development and production, and after delivery, the user will be facilitated in processes such as maintenance, maintenance and repair.
> 
> It is considered certain that the T925 utility helicopter will be used in TCG ANADOLU together with the T929 ATAK II.
> 
> Currently, there is an approach to deploying heavy class attack and utility helicopters on ANADOLU class and similar platforms. In addition to the heavy class higher ammunition / carrying capacity, they can perform tasks in more difficult sea conditions as platforms with high sea stance.
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> 
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> Yetkili isim duyurdu: ATAK 2 'nin motorları Türkiye'de üretilecek - Yeni Akit
> 
> 
> TUSAŞ Helikopter Genel Müdür Yardımcısı Mehmet Demiroğlu, ATAK-II Helikopteri'nde kullanılması planlanan Ukrayna motorlarının Türkiye’de üretileceğini açıkladı.
> 
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> www.yeniakit.com.tr
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> 
> I beleive its wise that We look forward to the next evolution instead of T129!


The T-129 is an Italian-Turkish joint development product. The ATAK-2 is an indigenous development program owned by the SSB and run entirely by TAI.

TAI is currently one of the most important helicopter production centers in the world. It produces not only its own products, but also helicopter fuselages and components for many aviation companies from Airbus to Sikorsky and even KAI.

TAI's roadmap envisages a several-times capacity increase in existing helicopter manufacturing operations. I think there is an important opportunity here for Pakistan as well. TAI's helicopter department aims to become a worldbrand that competes fullscale with manufacturers such as Airbus helicopter, AW and Sikorsky, Bell(Textron) in a decade.

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## Readerdefence

dBSPL said:


> The T-129 is an Italian-Turkish joint development product. The ATAK-2 is an indigenous development program owned by the SSB and run entirely by TAI.
> 
> TAI is currently one of the most important helicopter production centers in the world. It produces not only its own products, but also helicopter fuselages and components for many aviation companies from Airbus to Sikorsky and even KAI.
> 
> TAI's roadmap envisages a several-times capacity increase in existing helicopter manufacturing operations. I think there is an important opportunity here for Pakistan as well. TAI's helicopter department aims to become a worldbrand that competes fullscale with manufacturers such as Airbus helicopter, AW and Sikorsky, Bell(Textron) in a decade.


Hi thanks for such a detailed answer I just want to know how will Ukrainian help Turkey in engine technology as I think yesterday Putin & Erdogan been to Iran as per us axes of evil and obviously Europeans usa will pressure Ukrainian to stall engine thing for a while or indefinitely so better solution for the time being is Russian engine for ATAK 2 for the time being 
now im not saying don’t manufacture your own there is a say false or true but china bough major share of Ukrainian engine line 
instructions.
Joint Stock Company Motor Sich






Central entrance to the Motor Sich plantIndustryAerospace industry
DefenceFounded1907; 115 years agoHeadquartersZaporizhzhia, UkraineArea servedWorldwideProductsAircraft engines, Turbojet enginesNet income




UAH 3.3 billion (2015)[1]Total assets



UAH 20.7 billion (2015)[1]Number of employees21,860 (December, 2010)[2]Websitehttp://motorsich.com.ua
The *Motor Sich* Joint Stock Company (Ukrainian: АТ «Мотор Січ») in Zaporizhzhia is one of the largest engine manufacturers for airplanes and helicopters worldwide. It manufactures engines for airplanes and helicopters, and also industrial marine gas turbines and installations.
thank you


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## nomi007

I hope after drone attack now Bajwa uncle ask for engines and AH-1Z attack helicopters.

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## Tank131

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for such a detailed answer I just want to know how will Ukrainian help Turkey in engine technology as I think yesterday Putin & Erdogan been to Iran as per us axes of evil and obviously Europeans usa will pressure Ukrainian to stall engine thing for a while or indefinitely so better solution for the time being is Russian engine for ATAK 2 for the time being
> now im not saying don’t manufacture your own there is a say false or true but china bough major share of Ukrainian engine line
> instructions.
> Joint Stock Company Motor Sich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Central entrance to the Motor Sich plantIndustryAerospace industry
> DefenceFounded1907; 115 years agoHeadquartersZaporizhzhia, UkraineArea servedWorldwideProductsAircraft engines, Turbojet enginesNet income
> 
> 
> 
> UAH 3.3 billion (2015)[1]Total assets
> 
> 
> 
> UAH 20.7 billion (2015)[1]Number of employees21,860 (December, 2010)[2]Websitehttp://motorsich.com.ua
> The *Motor Sich* Joint Stock Company (Ukrainian: АТ «Мотор Січ») in Zaporizhzhia is one of the largest engine manufacturers for airplanes and helicopters worldwide. It manufactures engines for airplanes and helicopters, and also industrial marine gas turbines and installations.
> thank you


Well, not sure how much help Turkey will get from Ukraine, but Ukraine has its own unique relationship with Turkey. Turkey is one of the largest arms suppliers, providing it with likely the single most effective resistance tool used by Ukraine against Russia (TB2 Baraktyar drone)

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