# Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions



## DARKY

*The emergence of the Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA marks the end of the United States' quarter century long monopoly on the design of Very Low Observable (VLO) or stealth aircraft.*

The capabilities of the PAK-FA make a clear statement defining the Russian view of Within-Visual-Range (WVR) and Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) air combat, which diverges fundamentally from contemporary Western thinking. The Russian paradigm is clearly centred on the idea that BVR and WVR combat are much alike, insofar as during the engagement endgame the fighter under attack is within tracking range of the weapon fire control system and where possible the weapon or fire control element should be defeated kinematically. The principal observed difference between WVR and BVR combat in the Russian model, is that the latter relies more heavily on long range sensors and their ability to defeat low observability measures, or active countermeasures. 

*Designed to compete against the F-22 in traditional Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and Within Visual Range (WVR) air combat, the PAK-FA shares all of the key fifth generation attributes until now unique to the F-22 - stealth, supersonic cruise, thrust vectoring, highly integrated avionics and a powerful suite of active and passive sensors.* While the PAK-FA firmly qualifies as a fifth generation design, it has two further attributes absent in the extant F-22 design. The first is extreme agility, resulting from advanced aerodynamic design, exceptional thrust/weight ratio performance and three dimensional thrust vectoring integrated with an advanced digital flight control system. The second attribute is exceptional combat persistence, the result of a 25,000 lb internal fuel load. The internal and external weapon payload are likely to be somewhat larger, though comparable to those of the F-22A.

Russia intends to operate at least two hundred PAK-FAs, India two hundred and fifty of the Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) variant, with global PAK-FA exports likely to add at least 500 more tails to the production tally. The stated intent is to supply the PAK-FA as a replacement for existing T-10 Flanker series fighter aircraft.

Initial analysis of PAK-FA imagery and public disclosures by the Russian government and Sukhoi bureau indicate that a production PAK-FA will yield greater aerodynamic and kinematic performance to the current F-22A design, and similar low observables performance to the F-35A JSF2. 

While the basic shaping observed on this first prototype of the PAK-FA will deny it the critical all-aspect stealth performance of the F-22 in BVR air combat and deep penetration, its extreme manoeuvrability/controllability design features, which result in extreme agility, give it the potential to become the most lethal and survivable fighter ever built for air combat engagements3.

*It is important to consider that the publicly displayed PAK-FA prototype does not represent a production configuration of the aircraft, which is to employ a new engine design, and extensive VLO treatments which are not required on a prototype.* A number of observers have attempted to draw conclusions about production PAK-FA VLO performance based on the absence of such treatments, the result of which have been a series of unrealistically optimistic commentaries.

*PAK-FA Low Rate Initial Production is planned for 2013, and Full Rate Production for 2015, with initial deliveries of the Indian dual seat variant planned for 2017.*

The evolution and development history of the PAK-FA, historically, has not been well documented in open sources, largely due to the high levels of secrecy surrounding this program since its inception. What is known from open sources largely amounts to a collation of various intentional and incidental Russian disclosures, and increasingly, disclosures by India, who have a 25% share in the development of the design.

Study of the aircraft's design features, and earlier Sukhoi demonstrators, indicate that much careful thought has been invested into this design and its progressive development over a period of two decades.

When the Soviets deployed the Su-27S Flanker B during the early 1980s, investment into a replacement was initiated. This resulted in the reasonably well known 1990s MiG I.44 MFI (Mnogo-Funktsionniy Istrebitel' or Multi-Role Fighter), which was a multirole fighter modelled on the aerodynamics of the three &#8220;Eurocanard&#8221; designs, but much larger and intended to be powered by the Al-41F supersonic cruise engine.

The MFI was built to supercruise, and to provide very high agility, but no investment was made into signature reduction, making it fundamentally uncompetitive against the early 1990s US Air Force Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) YF-22 and YF-23 demonstrators.

The lack of a future for an expensive high signature fighter, and the MiG organisations de facto bankruptcy due to the export market success of the larger Sukhoi Flanker, saw the MFI relegated to a demonstration program. The important product of the MFI program was the Al-41F supercruising engine, modelled on the United States' Pratt & Whitney F119 series, which powers the F-22A. The Al-41F is the basis of the high temperature core components used in the supercruise capable 117S series engine, which now powers the production Su-35S Flanker and PAK-FA prototypes.

During this period Sukhoi developed the unusual S.32/S.37 forward swept wing demonstrator, intended to combine supersonic performance with super-manoeuvrability. This design demonstrated the use of large LEX, over large quarter circular inlets. Like the MFI, this design was not stealthy and was used to prove basic technologies and design rules.

A more successful demonstrator built during this period was the Su-37 &#8220;Super Flanker&#8221;, derived from the earlier Su-27M/Su-35 Flanker E. The Su-37 was intended to extend the T-10 Flanker design to the limit, especially in avionic systems and manoeuvre performance. It introduced the first axi-symmetric 3D (three dimensional) Thrust Vector Control (TVC) nozzles, manually controlled, and later integrated with the Digital Flight Control System (DFCS); the first quadruplex DFCS in a Russian fighter; composite structural components; a modern glass cockpit and force sensitive sidestick controller; digital core avionics; the N-011M BARS hybrid Electronically Steered Array (ESA) radar; and, a compact ESA tail warning radar.

The combination of aerodynamic design refined through progressive evolutionary development, DFCS, twin 3D vectoring thrust supercruising engines interoperating in and on an advanced kinematic design airframe, extended the Flanker design squarely into the category of &#8220;extreme agility&#8221; - which can be defined as the harmonised and complementary balance of extreme manoeuvrability and extreme controllability.

The Su-37 Super Flanker demonstration effort extended the viability of the basic T-10 Flanker design by almost two decades, and yielded basic technology used in the design of the Su-30MKI/MKM Flanker H and, as seen in the latter part of 2008, the Su-35S, often labelled the &#8220;4++ Generation Flanker&#8221;. It also provided experience which was critical to the development of the replacement for the T-10 Flanker series.

The PAK-FA properly qualifies as a 21st century project, as formal tendering for the program was launched during the 2000 - 2001 period by the Russian MoD. Russian sources claim that Sukhoi, MiG and Yakovlev were invited to bid proposals. Initial thinking was to develop a fighter larger than the MiG-29 Fulcrum, but smaller than the Su-27 Flanker, with greater range/persistence to the Flanker, low observable capability, extreme agility, supersonic cruise capability, and near STOL short field capabilities. Sukhoi won the tender in 2002 with its T-50/I-21 proposal, with MiG and Yakovlev engaged as subcontractors in the development. Russian sources state that Sukhoi's ability to fund much of the development effort from company export revenue profits was a major factor in the decision.

The initial design of the PAK-FA was finished in 2004, amid public controversies about lower than intended maximum speed, and greater than intended empty weight. Full Russian MoD funding was not provided until 2005 - 2006.

The prototype flown on the 29th January, 2010, is intended to prove aircraft aerodynamics, structure, and compatibility of the VLO shaping with aerodynamic and structural constraints. It is claimed to be fitted with the 117S Al-31F engine variant, common to the Su-35S, as the intended new engine has yet to complete development and enter production. The latter is expected to be a variant or derivative of the Al-41F design. The existing prototype probably lacks a complete version of its final avionic suite, most likely employing large parts of the new and fully digital Su-35S avionic suite as a basis for evolving the design of the final avionics fit, as has been the case on the development of previous Flanker variants.

The first &#8220;public&#8221; flight lasted 47 minutes and was intended to test handling, engine behaviour, landing gear operation, and basic systems functions2.

*The PAK-FA was designed with a stated requirement of being able to operate from short, unprepared runways in support of expeditionary operations.* With the exception of an observable deployed arrestor hook, the PAK-FA design incorporates all of the key design characteristics that are required in aircraft built to operate from Russian Navy ski-jump equipped aircraft carriers. It is not known whether the extant structural design includes the necessary provisions for arrestor hook loads.

Equipped with 3D TVC and large LEX control surfaces, power approach speeds in the order of 100 knots, sink rates somewhat less than 20 ft/sec and quite flat aircraft approach attitudes can be expected from this design, as can commensurately low arrestor hook and related carrier landing loads. Such performance, when combined with the extensive field of view provided by the fighter/strike/attack canopy configuration, and a functional arrestor hook system, likely integrated into the rear ventral internal weapon bay, would make the PAK-FA an eminently suitable aircraft for maritime operations.

*India was engaged early in the PAK-FA development effort, but Russian sources suggest that negotiations on the work share between HAL and Sukhoi/KnAAPO were protracted. Open sources suggest that India is responsible for 25% of the development of the PAK-FA, primarily in software and systems integration, areas where India has recent experience via the Su-30MKI program**. India is to also contribute in composite materials, with claims the PAK-FA structure is, by total aircraft weight, rather than just the airframe structural weight, some 25% titanium alloys, and 20% composites. Indian sources suggest that both single and dual seat variants will be built for India.*

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## vayuu1

mods kindly merge my thread with this thread


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## danger007

merge this thread please


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## DARKY



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## DARKY



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## DARKY




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## DARKY

Su PAK FA T-50 Maneuvering

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## DARKY

*Possible production version of Su PAK FA and HAL/Su FGFA*

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## RayBan

perceived raptor killer 
.
. expect Chinese coming with their own version.


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## DARKY




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## Jango

why is russia taking only 200 orders while india 250???


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## Jango

the plane doesnt look like from this angle as if it has enough space for weapos inside, the J 20 and F22 feel and look big unlike this one, no offence.


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

nuclearpak said:


> the plane doesnt look like from this angle as if it has enough space for weapos inside, the J 20 and F22 feel and look big unlike this one, no offence.


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## RayBan

nuclearpak said:


> why is russia taking only 200 orders while india 250???


 
cause India coming up with an INGENIOUS AND INDIGENOUS project AMCA.

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## DARKY

Inside Antonov


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## RayBan

nuclearpak said:


> why is russia taking only 200 orders while india 250???


 
cause India coming up with an INGENIOUS AND INDIGENOUS project AMCA..


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## RayBan

nuclearpak said:


> the plane doesnt look like from this angle as if it has enough space for weapos inside, the J 20 and F22 feel and look big unlike this one, no offence.


 
j20 with those canards looks like an elephant on radar.


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## RayBan

nuclearpak said:


> the plane doesnt look like from this angle as if it has enough space for weapos inside, the J 20 and F22 feel and look big unlike this one, no offence.


 
2000 kilo of internal payload is quiet self explained, don't you think so???


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## DARKY

Bad @$$


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## DARKY



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## DARKY

Mr. Prime Minister


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## DARKY



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## DARKY

self delete


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## DARKY

self delete


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## Jungibaaz

RayBan said:


> j20 with those canards looks like an elephant on radar.


 
yes, your right.
LO aircraft like Eurofighter and rafale are elephants on radar too right?
such comments are laughable....

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## DARKY

Possible cockpit configuration









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## saurav

Jungibaaz said:


> yes, your right.
> LO aircraft like Eurofighter and rafale are elephants on radar too right?
> such comments are laughable....



Yes they are , when compared to FGFA or, Raptor or, F-35..


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## DARKY

Possible Naval configurations 











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Possible Naval configurations


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

*Sukhoi PAK FA Stealth Fighter Aerobatics*


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## rcrmj

saurav said:


> Yes they are , when compared to FGFA or, Raptor or, F-35..


 
you really have to educate yourself about what makes it stealth`

stealth is not priority of F-35 and fgfa


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## Frank Martin

Wonderful pics...Keep on posting


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## vayuu1

rcrmj said:


> you really have to educate yourself about what makes it stealth`
> 
> stealth is not priority of F-35 and fgfa


 I don't think so few months
ago i read on internet that india wants fgfa to be stealthear plane, it is a different platfrom.anyway we have to wait till 20!2 to no the exact picture.


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## GORKHALI

Jungibaaz said:


> yes, your right.
> LO aircraft like Eurofighter and rafale are elephants on radar too right?
> such comments are laughable....


 
Are we talking about 4th generation here ?? Such comments are hilarious .


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## wealdcn017

nuclearpak said:


> why is russia taking only 200 orders while india 250???


 eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.


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## wealdcn017

i can't paste photos here, otherwise, i will show why it's not a stealth aircraft. 
no offence.


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## SpArK

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.


 
Yes, we have heard. 

Soo lucky to have an expert here on the forum.

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## houshanghai

http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view

http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view

http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view


who knows russian, 
What does the article say?

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## GORKHALI

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.


 
Awww...we are blessed to have you sir,actualy J 10B is the most stealthiest aircraft and most modern aircraft ever known to human being.... Happy ??


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## aimarraul

houshanghai said:


> http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view
> 
> http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view
> 
> http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view



Personally i like its aerodynamic ,any update on Shenkhoi's secret program?JXX might help to end this kind of dispute over Chinese and overseas military forum


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## GORKHALI

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.


 
Awww...we are blessed to have you sir,actualy J 10B is the most stealthiest aircraft and most modern aircraft ever known to human being.... Happy ?? .....


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## kingdurgaking

DARKY said:


>


 
Looking like a perfect gentle man

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## satishkumarcsc

houshanghai said:


> http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view
> 
> http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view
> 
> http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/down...id=9356212e8c2e8d658f4ca6db34fac48a&mode=view
> 
> 
> who knows russian,
> What does the article say?


 
The article talks about the demonstration flight of the PAK-FA TD and the MIG 29 UPG for the Indian AC.

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## dexbarman

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.


 
yeah they are pak's football which they will play wearing your jf 17 shoes right

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## Break the Silence

PAK FA/ FGFA WILL BE SIMPLY OUTCLASSED BY j20 COZ ... ITS NOT CHINESE, AND WORST IS INDIAN PARTICIPATION, WHICH WILL CAUSE PAKFA TURNED INTO A 3.5 GEN AIRCRAFT.

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## S10

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.





wealdcn017 said:


> i can't paste photos here, otherwise, i will show why it's not a stealth aircraft.
> no offence.


STFU, go away.


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## StormShadow

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10*bs* with dsi is much stealth than it.


Yeah J10-BS

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## S10

StormShadow said:


> Yeah J10-BS


B is the version. S stands for Shuang in Chinese, meaning twin, tandem or duo. Basically J-10B duo/twin/tandem seat. As far as his posts go, it was BS.

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## DARKY

Indian Members are requested to stay away from BS.......they'll ultimately be banned/their posts will be deleted here.


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## DacterSaab

I assume these T-50s are similar to YF-22s
and production version of PAK-FA will show similar changes as are seen b/w YF-22 and F-22


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

*SUPER COBRA*


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## DARKY

*INVERTED COBRA MANEUVER*

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## danger007

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.


 
so you are making j10B stealth fighter.


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## DARKY

*INVERTED FLYBY*


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## DARKY

*HIGH G-TURNS*






*DOWNWARD*






*UPWARD*

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## DARKY

Perfect Confilage.....


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## tvsram1992

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.


 J10b stealthier than PAKFA


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## rockstarIN

DacterSaab said:


> I assume these T-50s are similar to YF-22s
> and production version of PAK-FA will show similar changes as are seen b/w YF-22 and F-22

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## tvsram1992

PAKFA is going to have many variants Twinseat/strike/nuclear attack/maritime/navy etc...


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## danger007

tvsram1992 said:


> J10b stealthier than PAKFA


 
yes bro 

even JF-17x also. poor russians dont know about stealth tech


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## Jango

DARKY said:


>


 
thanks, thats why there is a whole lot of spacein between the engines..


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## DARKY

HIGH ANGLED TAKEOFF

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## DARKY

*ALL ASPECT 3D TVC SUPERCRUISING ENGINES*


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## DARKY

*GOING SUPERSONIC*

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## DARKY

nuclearpak said:


> thanks, thats why there is a whole lot of spacein between the engines..


 
Actually the spacing has got to do with high lift force generated by them during different flight regimes........its very useful in supermaneuvers.....thanks to the latter versions of flankers which demonstrated its effectiveness.


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## DARKY



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## DARKY




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## DARKY

*VERTICAL CLIMB*

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## DARKY

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HIGH G-TURN

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HIGH G-TURN


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## DARKY

*HIGH ANGLE MANEUVER*


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## DARKY

SUMMERTIME 






READY FOR TAKE OFF


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

INVERTED FLYBY


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## DARKY

FASTEN YOUR SEATBELTS PLEASE

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## DARKY



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## DARKY

SO DAMN BEAUTIFUL


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## Zabaniyah

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . *j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.*


 
Don't throw around wrong information pal. 

The J-10 was never intended to be a 'stealth' aircraft. Its a 4G+ fighter, not a 5G one unlike PAK FA. 

Maybe you were confused with the J-20? Please, no need to post photos of it here. Just discuss in the China sub-forum, there is a sticky for J-20. No need for this to become a vs. thread.

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## DARKY

*WATCH OUT FOR INTERNAL WEAPON BAYS AND SIDE BAYS*






@Nuclearpak; I guess here is your answer

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## DARKY

Visit more images of TD-2 1st flights at Knaapo........Feel free to upload them.

ÊÍÀÀÏÎ - Ãàëåðåÿ - Ñàìîëåòû - Áîåâûå - Ò-50 - Ò-50-2


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

Artistic Image


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## DARKY

Vertical climb


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## DARKY

Going supersonic






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## DARKY

Image from 3rd flight video 






Notice the sleek view of side part


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## DARKY

*SETTING THAR ON FIRE*








Note; A photoshopped Image


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

A 3D Model


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## DARKY

Arch Rivals






Note; A photoshopped Image


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## Zabaniyah

Those engines need more work. You know...to make it more 'stealthy'. 

Notice the engines on the F-22 or even the B-2. They don't 'stick out'.

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## S10

Zabanya said:


> Those engines need more work. You know...to make it more 'stealthy'.
> 
> Notice the engines on the F-22 or even the B-2. They don't 'stick out'.


Relax. It's a prototype.

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## DARKY




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## DARKY

Enjoy 













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## DARKY

A Nice Winter morning in Russia


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

From Knaapo



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## DARKY

Internal Weapons bay


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## DARKY

Elder and younger siblings


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## DARKY

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## DARKY

Perfect Background


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## Black Widow

DARKY said:


> A Nice Winter morning in Russia


 

nice


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## DARKY

Thanks
This one's for you






Second Prototype Image from May this year.



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Thanks
This one's for you






Second Prototype Image from May this year.


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## DARKY

Picture taken August lat year.


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## DARKY

Maneuvering 






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## DARKY

Night Testing of PT-1 on a chilly Winter Night


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## DARKY

AB thrust for shorter takeoff.


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## angeldemon_007

Yaar @DARKY why did you opened this new thread ? There is already similar thread and you are just pasting the same pics from that thread....


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## DARKY

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yaar @DARKY why did you opened this new thread ? There is already similar thread and you are just pasting the same pics from that thread....


 
Which one......I don't know about that thread......the Images I got are from knaapo and russian defense forums.......and early ones are latest,
I made the thread as it was asked by webmaster if we wanted to have a sticky PAK FA/FGFA thread......Initiated by an Indian member Pandora in Suggestions sub forum......If any such threads exists then It would be nice on the part of mods to merge this one and stick it in India defence.
Feel free to post latest imges.....I even provided the links from knaapo in case I miss the latest developments on my part.


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## DARKY

among lasted available of second prototype tests going on in Russia.


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## DARKY

Three X-Band AESA radars located on the front and sides of the aircraft, accompanied by L-Band AESA radars on the wing leading edges.


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## DARKY

Here's an old article describing Su PAK FA



> First flight of the T-50 will be held in Zhukovsky before the New Year.
> 
> Just a short time left before the start of flight testing of fighter T 50. This is the most mysterious and most anticipated military aircraft project Russia in recent years. Heavy multifunctional fifth generation fighter aircraft developed by Yakovlev Design Bureau. PO Sukhoi.
> 
> He created the program "Prospective complex Frontal Aviation" - PAK FA, so often called himself a plane. The appearance and technical characteristics of fighter aircraft are now the military secret. Nevertheless, something already known, and the rest you can invent. So, what will the future "master of heaven" - T-50? For a long time about how the jet will look, nothing was known. But now, on the basis of several semi-official figures and some official statements can be understood as follows. The appearance of the aircraft would be very unusual.
> 
> T-50 is a heavy twin-engine fighter aircraft with maximum takeoff weight of approximately 32-35 tons. It has a variable sweep delta wing and a large area. Wing loading is less than its overseas rivals F-22A Raptor. This, together with other aerodynamic properties allow it to surpass the maneuverability "Raptor". It is not only in the wing, but in an integral arrangement of aircraft in general, when the fuselage also creates a lifting force. Most modern fighters are forced to reach supersonic speeds include afterburner, several times faster than wasting fuel. The new aircraft will be able to fly at supersonic speeds without the inclusion of Afterburner - the so-called supersonic cruising. Now this can only ultrafast MiG-31 and American F-22A and F-35. This is an important quality allows the fighter to go faster than the line interception, quickly change the position for the attack, covering large areas quickly leave the battle, or to break away from the enemy, without risking to remain without fuel ahead of time.
> 
> T-50 will be hardly noticeable to the enemy radar. It has two keels small area set with the break to reduce radar visibility. The shape of the nose, cockpit, air intakes, stabilizers, too, would reduce the visibility of the aircraft.
> 
> To be slight, the plane should carry arms in the inner compartments. For this task the designers seem to have coped well - T-50 has at least 2 large storage compartments range air-to-air ": very large-scale, large and medium-range (they can be used for bombs), and compartments for missiles near the air baffle. If you perform a combat mission low profile is required, the weapon can be placed on the external suspension, including adjustable, bombs and guided missiles. The combat load the aircraft with the deployment of weapons within the reach up to 2,5 m, and the total - 7 tons. Range without refueling is not yet known, but it should be nothing less than the new Su-35C - 3,6-4 thousand kilometers.
> 
> However, to determine the appearance of T-50 has only relatively. Statements by officials are often very contradictory. Although one can not exclude deliberate disinformation competitors and adversaries. The combat effectiveness of the T-50 depends on the "stuffing" almost more than on the aerodynamics.
> 
> This is particularly the engines. The first flying prototype equipped with two engines of production NPO Saturn. In the future, are likely to be tested and the development MNPP "Salute". Their engines are already being installed on the Su-35C. This is a modern powerful engine with variable vserakursnym thrust vector. Serial car will have a completely new engine design which is now. In the conduct of air combat these engines provide the T-50 extremely high thrust-weight ratio. Management will be fully digital, integrated into the overall control of the aircraft.
> 
> There will also be included and a set of weapon control aircraft. It will become a powerful on-board radar (radar) with the active phased array created NIIP them. Tikhomirov. Radar antenna will have approximately 1,500 units with total capacity of about 20 kW. Prototype antenna has already demonstrated at MAKS-2009. With the help of the aircraft can detect targets at ranges of over 400 km (for large targets), both accompanied by up to 60 air targets and fire at once to 16.
> 
> Of course, just 60 goals to fire the aircraft can not, he would convey these neighbors who can fly with the radar switched off. To do this it will be installed multi-channel system of information exchange.
> 
> T-50 will be equipped with a new set of electronic surveillance and control, which is able to detect the enemy, not including the radar and demaskiruyas, and "crush" the enemy's interference. All this will allow him to see everything around him, attacking in different directions, while often remain invisible. Judging from the cockpit of Su-35C, which worked through part zadumok for a new jet, to fight in the T-50 pilot to be comfortable. All information will be displayed on the large color LCD screen, display on the windshield and helmet display and sighting system.
> 
> First and foremost important for a fighter missiles air-to-air missiles. T-50 missiles will be armed with extra high-range (420 km), able to turn the plane in the "flying C-400". Inside, he will be able to carry them at least 2 pcs., From the outside - more. This missile is ideally suited for the interception of critical and hard targets. Also new aircraft arm the missiles with ranges of 120 and 230 km. For melee fighter will have a new highly maneuverable missile with thermal homing head. This will give her an exceptional opportunity to capture even missiles. These missiles are being developed and will appear in the series in 2014. On the inside of the suspension will be up to 12 pcs. and more at external location. Not forgotten, and weapons to destroy ground targets - Radar, antiship missiles, bombs adjustable with different guidance systems. Will and air gun, 30 mm, which can destroy the enemy in melee burst of 3-5 rounds with high accuracy. At the moment, completed the first flying prototype, built several boards installation party. The first flight will take place in Zhukovsky quite soon - before the New Year.
> 
> The tests will last a long time, almost five years, and only in 2015 the first production T 50 will go on air, first for military trials, and then drill a squadron. Overall, the Air Force of Russia are interested in buying 450 to 600 of these machines. To release a T-50 will be in Komsomolsk-on-Amur and at dozens of allied enterprises in the country. These aircraft will replace the 2025 obsolete by the time the MiG-29 and Su-27. Planned and changed the deck for new aircraft carriers.
> 
> Irina Makarova based on military publications


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## bhejafry

Amazing pics, the Russians build the most amazing planes, thank you all.
The most interesting aspect, not mentioned as much, are the monstrous engines. PAK-FA should be able to do supercruise easily.


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## SpArK

Already a thread with same pics exists.. why copy paste it from there?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/45809-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-jets-pak-fa-fgfa-mca-ngfa-gallery-8.html


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## DARKY

*India to Buy 250-300 Fighter Jets From Russia*

*NEW DELHI* - India has agreed to buy up to 300 advanced stealth fighter jets from Russia that it will help jointly develop and manufacture, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said Oct. 7.



&#8220;INDIA WILL RECEIVE 250-300 most advanced FGFAs,&#8221; Indian Defence Minister AK Antony said. (AFP)
Antony told a press conference with his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov that Russia would supply the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) as well as 45 multi-role transport aircraft.

"India will receive 250-300 most advanced FGFAs," Antony said. "These are the two major projects for the next 10 years which will be a shining example of Indian-Russian cooperation."

Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd (HAL) and Russia's United Aircraft Corp and Rosoboronexport signed a joint venture last month to develop the multi-role transport aircraft in a project worth $645 million.

Serdyukov said previous success in the co-production of the BrahMos cruise missile would spur the FGFA's joint development by India's HAL and Russia's state-owned Sukhoi Company over the next 10 years.

"The FGFA have been designed by us, the price has been fixed and the draft of the agreement has been given to India. Once it is signed, HAL and Sukhoi will participate," Serdyukov said.

He did not disclose details.

Experts say each 30-ton FGFA is worth up to 100 million dollars.

Indian Defence Production Secretary R.K. Singh said the costing would be worked out in stages.

"At present a 300-million dollar preliminary design contract for the FGFA program is currently under the (Indian) government's consideration," Singh told AFP.

The draft agreement is likely to be signed during a trip to India by President Dmitry Medvedev in December.

Moscow is New Delhi's largest military supplier but recent frictions over cost escalations and delays in the delivery of a refurbished Russian aircraft carrier have strained cosy bilateral ties.

"We have a great volume of (military) projects and so it is natural to have some delays," Serdyukov said.

The minister also said Russia was waiting for New Delhi's clearance to supply 22 attack helicopters and 15 heavylift helicopters.

"As soon as we get the contract we will provide them," Serdyukov added.

India plans to mothball its mainstay MiG-21 Soviet-era fighter jets, which have earned the sobriquet "flying coffins" because of their dismal safety record.

India is also in the process of acquiring 270 Sukhoi war jets worth 12 billion dollars and is poised to hand out a contract for 126 fighter planes as part of a separate 12-billion dollar deal for which six global aeronautical giants are in the race.

The announcement of the FGFA agreement came a day day after Antony, in a clear reference to China, warned of the danger posed by regional "neighbours" who were building their military capabilities at a "feverish" pace.

"Some nations are keen to incite threats to our unity and integrity (and) thus to successfully meet such challenges, the need for us to be vigilant and prepared at all times goes without saying and is unquestionable," he said, without naming any specific country.

India has longstanding territorial disputes with China and is suspicious of Beijing's close relations with Pakistan.

India to Buy 250-300 Fighter Jets From Russia - Defense News


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## DARKY




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## SpArK

DARKY said:


> *India to Buy 250-300 Fighter Jets From Russia*
> 
> *NEW DELHI* - India has agreed to buy up to 300 advanced stealth fighter jets from Russia that it will help jointly develop and manufacture, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said Oct. 7.
> 
> 
> 
> &#8220;INDIA WILL RECEIVE 250-300 most advanced FGFAs,&#8221; Indian Defence Minister AK Antony said. (AFP)
> Antony told a press conference with his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov that Russia would supply the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) as well as 45 multi-role transport aircraft.
> 
> "India will receive 250-300 most advanced FGFAs," Antony said. "These are the two major projects for the next 10 years which will be a shining example of Indian-Russian cooperation."
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd (HAL) and Russia's United Aircraft Corp and Rosoboronexport signed a joint venture last month to develop the multi-role transport aircraft in a project worth $645 million.
> 
> Serdyukov said previous success in the co-production of the BrahMos cruise missile would spur the FGFA's joint development by India's HAL and Russia's state-owned Sukhoi Company over the next 10 years.
> 
> "The FGFA have been designed by us, the price has been fixed and the draft of the agreement has been given to India. Once it is signed, HAL and Sukhoi will participate," Serdyukov said.
> 
> He did not disclose details.
> 
> Experts say each 30-ton FGFA is worth up to 100 million dollars.
> 
> Indian Defence Production Secretary R.K. Singh said the costing would be worked out in stages.
> 
> "At present a 300-million dollar preliminary design contract for the FGFA program is currently under the (Indian) government's consideration," Singh told AFP.
> 
> The draft agreement is likely to be signed during a trip to India by President Dmitry Medvedev in December.
> 
> Moscow is New Delhi's largest military supplier but recent frictions over cost escalations and delays in the delivery of a refurbished Russian aircraft carrier have strained cosy bilateral ties.
> 
> "We have a great volume of (military) projects and so it is natural to have some delays," Serdyukov said.
> 
> The minister also said Russia was waiting for New Delhi's clearance to supply 22 attack helicopters and 15 heavylift helicopters.
> 
> "As soon as we get the contract we will provide them," Serdyukov added.
> 
> India plans to mothball its mainstay MiG-21 Soviet-era fighter jets, which have earned the sobriquet "flying coffins" because of their dismal safety record.
> 
> India is also in the process of acquiring 270 Sukhoi war jets worth 12 billion dollars and is poised to hand out a contract for 126 fighter planes as part of a separate 12-billion dollar deal for which six global aeronautical giants are in the race.
> 
> The announcement of the FGFA agreement came a day day after Antony, in a clear reference to China, warned of the danger posed by regional "neighbours" who were building their military capabilities at a "feverish" pace.
> 
> "Some nations are keen to incite threats to our unity and integrity (and) thus to successfully meet such challenges, the need for us to be vigilant and prepared at all times goes without saying and is unquestionable," he said, without naming any specific country.
> 
> India has longstanding territorial disputes with China and is suspicious of Beijing's close relations with Pakistan.
> 
> India to Buy 250-300 Fighter Jets From Russia - Defense News


 
Why are you posting all old news about PAK-FA found on internet??????


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## DARKY

High resolution Image of Su PAK FA cockpit 






Note; The image have been posted earlier.


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## DARKY

SpArK said:


> Why are you posting all old news about PAK-FA found on internet??????


 
Got messed up....with translation part......next would be latest.


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## SpArK

DARKY said:


> Got messed up....with translation part......next would be latest.


 
All the latest have been posted . Its not as if we started hearing about it very recently. The threads and news articles and all the pics u have posted exists in various threads and have been seen a number of times.


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## DARKY

SpArK said:


> Already a thread with same pics exists..* why copy paste it from there*?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/45809-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-jets-pak-fa-fgfa-mca-ngfa-gallery-8.html



No copy pasting done......they are all old images of PT-1.


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## Jon Snow

so anthony himself says 250-300, while pv naik says 214..... Whats going on here??? Was pv naik only counting the fgfa and not the pak fa while anthony was counting both???


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## tvsram1992

DARKY said:


> No copy pasting done......they are all old images of PT-1.


Its a good collection of yours.
Take my vote.


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## DARKY

Here's again these are the images from knaapo.......from january.

ÊÍÀÀÏÎ - Ãàëåðåÿ - Ñàìîëåòû - Áîåâûå - Ò-50 - Ò-50-2


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## tvsram1992

Jon Snow said:


> so anthony himself says 250-300, while pv naik says 214..... Whats going on here??? Was pv naik only counting the fgfa and not the pak fa while anthony was counting both???


 Ya first deal of 214 FGFA is fixed, later they will be increased as requirements increase.


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## SpArK

DARKY said:


> No copy pasting done......they are all old images of PT-1.


 
Check these threads.. post in any of these. Almost all of the pics are old and already posted.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/45738-pak-fa-takes-sky.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/96053-2nd-pak-fa-prototype-maiden-flight-pics.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/56071-pak-fa-photos-videos.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/45736-pak-fa-pictures-videos-10.html


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## DARKY

tvsram1992 said:


> Its a good collection of yours.
> Take my vote.


 
Thanks buddy actually I posted most of the latest images 1st and earlier ones last.


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## lawxx

http://mil.huanqiu.com/world/2011-07/1797673.html
India and Russia said it would co-generation of machine-made 214 5 sudden action to deal with China
According to Russia's "Independent Military Observer" reported on July 1, Indian Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Naik has said in an interview, the Indian Air Force is currently strengthening the border area with China's military deployment, especially to the "line of actual control "deployed near the more advanced fighters.


Indian Air Force chief of staff pointed out that in order to improve its air force's modernization and combat capability, India will be from around 2017 with the joint production of 214 Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft, as existing orders for 42 additional Su-30 fighters, while , also will increase to purchase two Il-76 heavy transport aircraft as a platform for the development of long-range early warning aircraft.


In airborne weapons, India will continue to jointly developed with Russia, "BrahMos" supersonic cruise missile to improve, 2012, air-launched the "BrahMos" will begin to equip the Su-30 . Naik general view, another about 3-4 years, the Indian Air Force's modernization will be among the highest in the world.


As for India's weapons program could lead to update how the international response, there is the Indian shore, said the program has obvious defensive nature, in response to the Chinese side may take the "sudden action." China to strengthen them in the "line of actual control," the eastern end of the strength of the move expressed unease.


Indian media have reported that in March this year, the Indian Air Force has begun in the Indian Air Force base in northern Jia Buwa deploy the second Su-30MKI fighter squadrons. The base is located in the main city of Guwahati, Assam, India, about 450 kilometers east. According to Indian Air Force plans, the future stationed at the base of the Su-30MKI scale will reach 18.


Indian Air Force was in June 2009 in Assam province north of Cervantes Pu Wilkie deployed a squadron of Su-30MKI. Need to be reminded that the foundation of all Air Force bases and Gu Buwa near the Indian border, and took off from here, Su-30MKI fighter combat radius is sufficient to cover the direction of the Sino-Indian border. (Compass)

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## AMCA

Amazing, but India was buying 250 Fifth generation fighter aircraft, isnt it??

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## Viva_Viet

AMCA said:


> Amazing, but India was buying 250 Fifth generation fighter aircraft, isnt it??


Congratulation !

I've heard that Japan also making the 5th generation also , hope you can sell us the 4th in cheaper price

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## rajusri

T-50's intake secrets (almost) revealed (c/o Konstine/PPV- take 2):

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## AMCA

Viva_Viet said:


> Congratulation !
> 
> I've heard that Japan also making the 5th generation also , hope you can sell us the 4th in cheaper price


 
I have heard that Vietnam is already interested in the PAK-FA/FGFA development brother....

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## AMCA

Wow, thanks for the news man...

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## Brotherhood

It should belong to "Indian defence" section, MOD, please move thread to appropriate sub-forum.


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## siegecrossbow

Brotherhood said:


> It should belong to "Indian defence" section, MOD, please move thread to appropriate sub-forum.


 
The title has "to deal with China" in it so I think it might qualify under China defence .

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## Viva_Viet

Brotherhood said:


> It should belong to "Indian defence" section, MOD, please move thread to appropriate sub-forum.


See, every one love China, China should be a peaful leader with superior power, so every body will respect you like US.

You China have a chance to be a good Asea leader, don't miss it !


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## DARKY

*The Veteran Sergei Bogdan in PT-2 No.''52''
*


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## houshanghai

FGFA






PAKFA


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## rajusri

IAF chief marking Swastika on the PAK FA.


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## anathema

I am totally lost on the headline of the article....INTAKE SECRETS REVEALED ? What secrets ? S- Shaped duct or something ?


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## koushik

rajusri said:


> IAF chief marking Swastika on the PAK FA.


 
Om Ganeshaya namah.

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## Zabaniyah

Already posted.


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## Abingdonboy

Chief Naik has been a great ACM- just what was needed for IAF at the time and he can be assured he has left a great legacy for the IAF to continue to blossom.

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## angeldemon_007

I thought he visited a couple of weeks back (correct me if i am wrong)....


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## rajusri

koushik said:


> Om Ganeshaya namah.


 
shubharambh


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> I thought he visited a couple of weeks back (correct me if i am wrong)....


 
Yes, march 23rd is written on the 2nd pic I guess.


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## Tshering22

Abingdonboy said:


> Chief Naik has been a great ACM- just what was needed for IAF at the time and he can be assured he has left a great legacy for the IAF to continue to blossom.


 
True. I love the way in which he handled Maino Mafia and MMS'. The UPA was so pissed that Naik took all the defense grievances to public and getting them done. I really wish ACM-would-be Browne does the same or even better following Naik's example. About time the Joint Chief took some political forcefully from weak and corrupt government. 

BTW can anyone translate what's the article talking about? That'd be a great help. Perhaps a Russian member could help. Thanks. 

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 PM ----------




sancho said:


> Yes, march 23rd is written on the 2nd pic I guess.


 
It is May 23rd mate. That's the latest visit.


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## rajusri

*Can anyone translate it?*


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## koushik

rajusri said:


> shubharambh


 
yes absolutely.

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## Hunzaghazi

Meeting the Roosies is one thing but negotiation with them for delivery & spare parts, upgradation, price negotiation is another. Plus the red tape is humoungous. 
So lets wait and watch as to in which century this prospective deal is clinched. I believe he is just on surveying the modern aircraft. 
*PAK FA (CONFUSING NAME)*


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## angeldemon_007

> Yes, march 23rd is written on the 2nd pic I guess.


So why the hell this new thread...?/

@ rajusri 
Don't open new threads without any reason. T50 has a long way to go and by that time if this continues then it will break the records of no.of MMRCA threads by many times...


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## rajusri

angeldemon_007 said:


> So why the hell this new thread...?/
> 
> @ rajusri
> Don't open new threads without any reason. T50 has a long way to go and by that time if this continues then it will break the records of no.of MMRCA threads by many times...


 
You open a thread every minute.  How many duplicate threads you created? 


Show me the post of the photos.

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## pari.mehta

hmm, cant wait for it to get ioc


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## DARKY

*ACM P.V. Naik talks of Inducting 250-270 PAK FA+FGFA 5th Generation Fighters from 2017 Onwards*.






Watch out from 1:20 minutes.

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## GORKHALI




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## Tija

I cant wait more to see it flying in INDIAN color.


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## nomi007

PAK-FA need more work on to reducing heat issue due to endine design 
f-22 raptor has a great engine design to reduce thread of heat seeking missiles


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## DARKY

*Size Comparison *

---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------







*Size Comparison *

---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------







*Size Comparison *


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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## RPK

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

















---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------


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## RPK




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## RPK

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------


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## RPK




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## RPK




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## RPK




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## Black Widow

DARKY said:


> *Size Comparison *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Size Comparison *


 

Look like some Sumo fighter sit over Su27 (Flanker) and the result became PAK-FA...


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## Black Widow

DARKY said:


> *Size Comparison *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Size Comparison *


 

Look like some Sumo fighter sit over Su27 (Flanker) and the result became PAK-FA...


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## Break the Silence

Black Widow said:


> Look like some Sumo fighter sit over Su27 (Flanker) and the result became PAK-FA...


 
Indeed a great analysis!!!


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## Tija

Black Widow said:


> Look like some Sumo fighter sit over Su27 (Flanker) and the result became PAK-FA...


ha ha ha...................


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## RPK




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## DacterSaab

the chairman of HAL has said that FGFA will be *significantly* different from PAK FA so it could probably look something like this.


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## kish

NoI UOTE=DacterSaab;1956052]the chairman of HAL has said that FGFA will be *significantly* different from PAK FA so it could probably look something like this.



[/QUOTE]

I dont think there will be major changes in air frame . . 
It will be twine seater version of PAK FA . . . same like MKI . . Which is twine seat version of su 30 . . . Changes from Russian jet will be in form of internal systems . . Like EW , Cockpit , weapons . . . But air frame will not have major changes . .


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
The above design is from Mikhoyan but i think we signed deal with United Aircraft Corporation which comprises of both Sukhoi and Mikhoyan. But personally its a lot of work if we will chose the above design.


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## kish

^^^ If we gonna choose this design then can we induct this plane in 2017 . . As we know till now no plane with this design in sky . .


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
I doubt it. Sorry, i wanna correct my previous statement that the above pic is of Su-47 Berkut which is not stealthy but designed to have excellent agility and maneuverability. Now after the PakFa Russians might able to convert it into a stealth fighter of PakFa level but i still doubt because of its design but seriously if we are able to achieve such a level of RCS in Su47 then it will be better than PakFa.

Personally i think we should not pay much attention to the comment made specifically by ADA and HAL because their specification changes in every couple months.


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

Self Delete


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

Corporation "Tactical Missiles" is developing for future aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA fighter of the fifth generation), the newest weapon system, "Interfax-AVN," CEO Boris Obnosov. 

"Today, all the complexes, which are set out in the tactical-technical task for the PAK FA, are in various stages of refinement. For a gun entered the state tests, somewhere we even completed the state tests and are currently working on perfecting and preparing the first production batches," - said B. Obnosov Air Show at Le Bourget. 

He noted that the program to create weapons consistent with the work by myself fighter. "Just as work on the PAK FA, create weapons for him is divided into two phases - first phase to 2014 and the second - from 2015," - said the CEO. 

He explained that each stage involves the further development of weapons systems. For example, to launch "air-air" is - gradual increase in range, improved accuracy, the improvement of all those characteristics that determine the effectiveness of weapons. 

"All areas will be improved, as it is written in the complex target program of aircraft weapons," - said the CEO. 

B. Obnosov reported that regularly hosts meetings where the developer of a fighter - the company "Dry" and the developers of weapon systems and compare their current long-term policy. "The problem is: when the PAK FA will go into a series for him to be ready weapon," - said the CEO. 

According to him, these processes are synchronized. We can not allow a fighter was not ready weapons for development which requires 2-3 years. 

The first flight of the PAK FA was held on 29 January 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. Compared with previous generations of fighter PAK-FA has several unique features, combining the functions of an attack aircraft and fighter. Fifth-generation aircraft is equipped with brand new avionics, which integrates the function of "e-pilot" and promising radar with a phased antenna array. This greatly reduces the load on the pilot and allows you to concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks. 

On-board equipment of the new aircraft can exchange data in real time as a land-based control systems, and within the aviation group. The use of composite materials and innovative technology, aerodynamic design aircraft, measures to reduce the visibility of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared signature. This can significantly increase the combat effectiveness in both air and ground targets at any time of day, and adverse weather conditions. 

In the inner compartment can be located as a fighter missiles air-to-air and air-to-surface. In a class "air - air" is a big rocket and short-range and medium-range missile development Design Bureau "Vympel". 

In air-to-surface in the inner compartment can be placed anti-ship missiles, rockets modular general-purpose bombs and guided the caliber of 250 kg. In addition, the aircraft can carry guided missiles and bombs of various caliber destination up to 1,500 kg on external sling. 

All managed air attack, planned to equip the aircraft, developed by the corporation "Tactical Missiles."

ÎÀÎ "Êîìïàíèÿ "Ñóõîé" - Íîâîñòè - ÑÌÈ î êîìïàíèè


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## DARKY

Self Delete


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## DacterSaab

kish said:


> NoI
> 
> 
> DacterSaab said:
> 
> 
> 
> the chairman of HAL has said that FGFA will be *significantly* different from PAK FA so it could probably look something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think there will be major changes in air frame . .
> It will be twine seater version of PAK FA . . . same like MKI . . Which is twine seat version of su 30 . . . Changes from Russian jet will be in form of internal systems . . Like EW , Cockpit , weapons . . . But air frame will not have major changes . .
Click to expand...

 
The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, *development of wings and control surfaces*,&#8221; said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft along with Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi design bureau.
Sukhoi/HAL FGFA a Indian Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation
So brother no major Changes to airframe or fusselage just reshaping of wings and control surfaces.
Although that article refers to an AL-37 engine AFAIK it's AL-31 engine so not sure of it's authenticity but i'm merely speculating there's little else any of us could do.


----------



## Jon Snow

Russia seeks to sell stealth jets to Korea


07-20-2011 19:30 
*Russia seeks to sell stealth jets to Korea​*By Lee Tae-hoon

Russia has decided to enter Korea&#8217;s advanced jet acquisition project, which would be the biggest arms-procurement deal ever in the country, a defense official said Wednesday. 

&#8220;Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi expressed its intent to compete in the fighter jet procurement project early this year,&#8221; Col. Wi Jong-seong of the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) said. 

He said Sukhoi&#8217;s T-50 PAK-FA will vie with the F-15SE Silent Eagle from Boeing, the F-35 Lightning II f4rom Lockheed Martin and the Eurofighter Typhoon from the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS). 

The T-50 PAK-FA and the F-35 Lightning II are fifth generation stealth fighters, while the remaining two are fourth generation jets with limited stealth capabilities. 

Earlier in the day, DAPA spokesman Son Hyeong-yeong announced that his agency has eased the criteria to allow more companies to bid for the FX-III project, under which Korea will purchase 60 high-end fighters with a budget of 8.29 trillion won ($7.86 billion). 

&#8220;We will set up strategies that will allow for the transfer of core technology and that will encourage competition,&#8221; he said. 

Insiders, however, say both the T-50 PAK-FA and Eurofighter Typhoon have a little chance in winning the bid as Korea&#8217;s alliance with the United States will be a decisive factor in the race. 

They say EADS offered a better deal in Korea&#8217;s last jet acquisition project in 2008 than its American competitor Boeing, but lost the bid due largely to political decisions.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin, two of the largest defense contractors in the United States, say they have had a long industrial partnership with Korea and their fighters offer high compatibility with its existing weapons systems.

EADS recently announced that it will offer Korea the chance to assemble and partly manufacture Eurofighter Typhoons in Korea in an apparent bid not to lose the FX-race again. 

&#8220;The first 10 deliveries will be assembled in Europe, while the next 24 will be built with components manufactured in Korea,&#8221; Erwin Obermeier, a senior advisor of export projects at EADS said, adding that the remainder will be assembled here. 

He also downplayed concerns over compatibility, saying all Korean fighters and Eurofighters are built to be inter-operable in the NATO environment. 

Korea has purchased 60 F-15s from Boeing, which won both the FX-I and II projects in 2002 and 2008

Meanwhile, DAPA announced that Korea will spend 1.84 trillion won to acquire 36 attack helicopters from overseas. Col. Tan Myeong-hoon of DAPA said the AH-1W SuperCobra by Bell and AH-64D Block III from Boeing, will compete with the EC-665 Tiger from Eurocopter of France and the T-129 from Turkey.

The winners of the FX-III and the attack helicopter bids will be announced in October next year.

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## kingdurgaking

PAK-FA is wasting there time with Korea... it will be F-35 which will brag the deal.. Korea will come under US wrath if they do something out of the circle


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## Udtapanchi

The Russians are walking into a trap here. All the testing and analysis will be done & Korea will read the script provided by Lockheed about how the F-35 came on top of the PAK-FA on almost every count & blah blah......

So it will be nothing more than a advertising campaign for F-35


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## akinkhoo

I disagree, the Korean are not satisfied with the capability of F-35, they have been looking at option in building their own, I think it was a smart move by Russia to recommend the fighter to Korea even if it is a long shot.


----------



## DacterSaab

akinkhoo said:


> I disagree, the Korean are not satisfied with the capability of F-35, they have been looking at option in building their own, I think it was a smart move by Russia to recommend the fighter to Korea even if it is a long shot.


 
the Koreans are gonna choose something American and nothing in the world can change that.


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## angeldemon_007

*Sukhoi: Development of PAK FA is going on without any failures*

Russia and India are continuing their cooperation on development and construction of fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation), RIA Novosti reports. It has been reported by the official representative of Sukhoi Company.


It has been reported earlier by Russian mass-media that the negotiations regarding this project are at the end of one&#8217;s tether. But they did not specify who is responsible for this.

"The work (on development of fifth-generation fighter) are being carried out at full speed", - the aviation company&#8217;s representative noted.

The contract on development of Indian PAK FA version&#8217;s (designated as FGFA - Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) draft engineering design has been signed on December 21st 2010. Russian partners have pledged to invest $295 million in the project. Indian air forces are planning to acquire 250-300 FGFAs with a total value of $25 billion.

Russian prototype of PAK FA (&#1058;-50), designed by Sukhoi design bureau, have already performed its maiden flight in January 2010. The start of T-50 deliveries is scheduled on 2016. It is expected that the joint Russia-India fifth generation fighter will be created in several years after the start of T-50&#8217;s acquisition by Russian air forces.

It is also intended that the joint Russia-India fighter will become an export version of T-50.

Sukhoi: Development of PAK FA is going on without any failures - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM


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## Jon Snow

from what i have read - the t 50 will be further developed into the fgfa just like the su 30 was developed into su 30mki.... Going by this logic india will probably start getting the pak fa while the fgfa is developed( 2015-16) and then mordenize the pak fa into the fgfa when the development of fgfa is complete - just like we got the su 30ks and su 30mks while the development of su 30mki was going on and then when it was complete we mordenized the k's and mk's to mki standard


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## angeldemon_007

Official Web site of the International Aviation and Space Salon AKS-2011 :: FLIGHT PROGRAM


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> from what i have read - the t 50 will be further developed into the fgfa just like the su 30 was developed into su 30mki.... Going by this logic india will probably start getting the pak fa while the fgfa is developed( 2015-16) and then mordenize the pak fa into the fgfa when the development of fgfa is complete - just like we got the su 30ks and su 30mks while the development of su 30mki was going on and then when it was complete we mordenized the k's and mk's to mki standard


 
Pak Fa is a single seater, while FGFA will be a twin seater and IAF doctrine wants the latter config for the prime fighters, same reason why we went with twin seat Su 30 versions and not took the single seat Su 35 that the Russians offered.


----------



## RockyX

*Sukhoi: Development of PAK FA is going on without any failures*

Russia and India are continuing their cooperation on development and construction of fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation), RIA Novosti reports. It has been reported by the official representative of Sukhoi Company.


It has been reported earlier by Russian mass-media that the negotiations regarding this project are at the end of one&#8217;s tether. But they did not specify who is responsible for this.

"The work (on development of fifth-generation fighter) are being carried out at full speed", - the aviation company&#8217;s representative noted.

The contract on development of Indian PAK FA version&#8217;s (designated as FGFA - Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) draft engineering design has been signed on December 21st 2010. *Russian partners have pledged to invest $295 million in the project. Indian air forces are planning to acquire 250-300 FGFAs with a total value of $25 billion.*

Russian prototype of PAK FA (&#1058;-50), designed by Sukhoi design bureau, have already performed its maiden flight in January 2010. The start of T-50 deliveries is scheduled on 2016. It is expected that the joint Russia-India fifth generation fighter will be created in several years after the start of T-50&#8217;s acquisition by Russian air forces.

It is also intended that the joint Russia-India fighter will become an export version of T-50.


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## RockyX

*Russia's Fifth-gen PAK FA first public display at &#1052;AKS-2011 next month*

OFFICIAL SPONSOR OF FLIGHT PROGRAM 

GOODYEAR RUSSIA LLC

A feature that sets the International Aviation and Space Salon (MAKS) apart from the leading aviation forums of the world is its rich and colorful flight program. The forthcoming anniversary MAKS 2011 won&#8217;t be an exception to this rule.

Unsurpassed flights of Russian and foreign aces will light up the sky over Zhukovsky airfield once again. Unmatched performances of four Russian aerobatic teams wait for visitors at MAKS-2011. They will see performances of "Russian Knights", "Strizhi", "Russian Falcons" and "Rus" aerobatic teams, flights of demonstration planes from USA, France and Italy as well as flights of the best Russian test pilots on Russian modern fighters and civil airplanes!

Among the participants it will also be possible to see the aerobatic team «Baltic Bees» which is the first and exclusive private civil aerobatic team in the Baltic states. It is based at the aerodrome Tukums 60 km westward of Riga, the Republic of Latvia (ICAO code &#8211; EVTA). This team was created in 2008. The skill of the group piloting on minimum distances and the precision of acrobatics operations are the landmark of «Baltic Bees».

The aerobatic team has performed in many countries of Europe and Asia, among which there are Czech Republic and Poland, Germany and France, Sweden and Finland, Estonia and Lithuania, Ukraine and the the United Arab Emirates and others.

The team flies on airplanes L-39&#1057; Albatros manufactured in Czech Republic. The peculiarity of the planes of this team is the plane's original paintings like «baltic bees» underlining the brightness and the elegance of lines of aerodynamic configuration of the plane. The program of flying display of «Baltic Bees» involves nonrecurring acrobatic maneuvers, executed by 5 plains in high-density formation.
For the visitors&#8217; convenience the static parking area will be more compact, similarly to MAKS-2009: Airplanes weighting up to 3 tons will be standing on the ground, while all the other aircraft and aviation equipment will be located on the concrete airstrip.

By tradition, the static parking area will opened with the exposition of the United Aircraft Corporation. The exhibits will include Russian modern multipurpose fighters Su-35, MiG-35, Su-30 MK2, as well as the novelty of the Russian civil aircraft industry &#8211; Sukhoy superjet-100 aircraft. For the first time Russian PAK FA fighter of the Fifth generation will take part in the flight program.

At the static parking area the Russian Air Force will present the full range of military airplanes and helicopters: Tu-160, A-50, Tu-95, Su-27 SM, MiG-29SMT, Su-24M, Su-25SM, Su-34, MiG-31B, Jak-130, helicopters Ka-52, Mi-26, Mi-8 MTV-5, Mi-28. Also, Russian Helicopters, JSC will demonstrate their wide range of military and civil helicopters. Apart from this, themed flight performances are in the schedule: "Search and Rescue" with participation of Ka-226&#1058; Mi-34S1 helicopters; &#8220;Anti-terror&#8221; with participation of Ka-52 Mi-28NE, Mi-8 helicopters.

This time you will also be able to see the reconstruction of the Soviet field airdrome of air defense of the period of the Battle of Moscow, with flying display of planes wording off the raids of Hitlerites to Moscow. The program includes the single, group and aerobatic flights accompanied by the performance of the group of reenactors in the field airdrome and by the comments of an announcer. For the first time it will be possible to see about 10 planes of the military period simultaneously in the air of MAKS. The following defense equipment is prepared for demonstrations: I-15bis, I-153, I-16, DIT, Sh-2, three Po-2, two MiG-3 fighters, and also two T-60 tanks, GAZ-AA cars, anti-aircraft guns and a functioning field kitchen

No doubt that the main premiere of MAKS-2011 will be the biggest passenger airplane &#1040;-380 made by Airbus concern. An-158 airplane will be one of the Ukrainian novelties. Thus, this year&#8217;s MAKS will be the only exhibition in the world, where the visitors will see the biggest passenger and cargo aircraft!

The French Air Force will demonstrate Rafale fighters in their flight program and the Italian Air Force will demonstrate the only cargo aircraft in the world, performing aerial stunts &#8211; S27.

This year, after 4-year break, US Air Force airplanes will take part in the Salon. For the first time C-5&#1040; Galaxy military transport airplane, &#1040;-10 attack planes and P-3 reconnaissance plane will be presented at the static parking area. The Salon&#8217;s visitors will also be able to see traditional MAKS participants - KC-135 transport airplanes, F-16 and F-15 fighters as well as &#1042;-52 bomber. F-15 multipurpose fighter will perform a new 15 minute long program.

With every year MAKS pays an increasing attention to the business program, which includes a large number of negotiations, meetings, forums and congress-type events. Due to this circumstance, during 17-18 August, which are the days, intended for experts, the flight program will be limited. During the days, intended for the public at large, the aviation show will be going on in full daily from 11am to 5pm.

Official Web site of the International Aviation and Space Salon AKS-2011 :: FLIGHT PROGRAM


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## RockyX

Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA Public Debut Planned for MAKS 2011 in August

Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter, also known as PAK-FA, will make its public debut at the upcoming MAKS 2011 airshow near Moscow in August, 2011, according to Nikolai Zanegin, Deputy General Director of Russia&#8217;s Aviasalon company, quoted by Russian News Agency Novosti.

The Sukhoi T-50 fighter is being developed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia&#8217;s Far East. The first prototype conducted its maiden flight in January 2010 and has so far carried out over 40 test flights. Two more prototypes are at various stages of testing. The Russian Air Force has said it had plans to acquire over 60 T-50 fighters after 2015.

The MAKS-2011 air show will be held at Zhukovsky outside Moscow on August 16-21. In all, 627 companies, including 473 Russian and 154 foreign exhibitors.

Other Russian made modern fighters to be demonstrated in flight include the Su-35, MiG-35 and Su-30 MK2. The helicopter display will include the Ka-226&#1058; and Mi-34S1 helicopters along with Ka-52, Mi-28NE and Mi-8.

Guest performers at MAKS 2011 will be the French Air Force rafale. The French fighter will be flown to Moscow from its home base at Saint Dizier, France. F-15E strike fighters from U.S. European command will also participate in the flight display, along with A-10, F-16s, B-52, KC-10 and KC-135 tankers, C-130J Super Hercules and C-5 Galaxy shown on the static park. Other aircraft on display will include the Airbus A380, Boeing C-17 and Alenia C-72J Spartan transport aircraft.


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## localoca

RayBan said:


> perceived raptor killer .


 ...



RayBan said:


> expect Chinese coming with their own version.


 J-20 will be inducted first than T-50...


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## localoca

DacterSaab said:


> I assume these T-50s are similar to YF-22s


 you assume to much, the Yankis have 600 Billion $ to expend in their high tech toys, Russia wished they had YF-23 Class tech..


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## localoca

DARKY said:


> thanks to the latter versions of flankers which demonstrated its effectiveness.


 but not good with Stealth...


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## conworldus

The T-50 is just recently in development, and according to many people, the two flying are merely "prototypes" that will undergo a lot of changes. So why is Russia so impatient that it has to show off such an incomplete project? It has sold to India, and is trying to sell to Korea. I smell so much fish...



RockyX said:


> Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA Public Debut Planned for MAKS 2011 in August
> 
> Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter, also known as PAK-FA, will make its public debut at the upcoming MAKS 2011 airshow near Moscow in August, 2011, according to Nikolai Zanegin, Deputy General Director of Russia&#8217;s Aviasalon company, quoted by Russian News Agency Novosti.
> 
> The Sukhoi T-50 fighter is being developed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia&#8217;s Far East. The first prototype conducted its maiden flight in January 2010 and has so far carried out over 40 test flights. Two more prototypes are at various stages of testing. The Russian Air Force has said it had plans to acquire over 60 T-50 fighters after 2015.
> 
> The MAKS-2011 air show will be held at Zhukovsky outside Moscow on August 16-21. In all, 627 companies, including 473 Russian and 154 foreign exhibitors.
> 
> Other Russian made modern fighters to be demonstrated in flight include the Su-35, MiG-35 and Su-30 MK2. The helicopter display will include the Ka-226&#1058; and Mi-34S1 helicopters along with Ka-52, Mi-28NE and Mi-8.
> 
> Guest performers at MAKS 2011 will be the French Air Force rafale. The French fighter will be flown to Moscow from its home base at Saint Dizier, France. F-15E strike fighters from U.S. European command will also participate in the flight display, along with A-10, F-16s, B-52, KC-10 and KC-135 tankers, C-130J Super Hercules and C-5 Galaxy shown on the static park. Other aircraft on display will include the Airbus A380, Boeing C-17 and Alenia C-72J Spartan transport aircraft.


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## aimarraul

*Russia to export 600 Sukhoi PAK FA fifth generation jets*


Russia is capable of exporting over 600 units of the fifth generation fighter Sukhoi. According to experts of the Center for Analysis of the Global Arms Trade, it is planned to build at least a thousand of these aircraft. The expected order of the Russian Air Force during the years of 2020-2040 with a favorable economic scenario in the country may reach 400-450 units.


In general, the volume of potential export orders for the PAK FA, considering India, could reach 548-686 fighters. Currently, the only foreign member of the PAK FA program is India, which plans to have no less than 250 units of fifth-generation fighter in service of its air force. They will be built on the basis of the Russian PAK FA, but the level of licensing control of the Russian side for the future model of the fifth generation aircraft is unknown.


In July of 2010, General Director of Sukhoi Mikhail Pogosyan said that the contract with India may be signed before the end of this year. The details of future cooperation of Sukhoi and the leading Indian corporation Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) participating in the development have not been reported.

Based on the forecast, the potential buyers of PAK FA are distributed between the following countries: Algeria (can purchase 24-36 fifth-generation fighters in the period of 2025-2030 years), Argentina (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040), Brazil (24 - 36 units in the years 2030-2035), Venezuela (24-36 units in the years 2027-2032), Vietnam (12-24 units in the years 2030-2035), Egypt (12-24 units in the years 2040-2045).

Also, Indonesia (6-12 units in the years 2028-2032), Iran (36-48 units in the years 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (12-24 units in the years 2025-2035), China (up to 100 units in the years 2025-2035), Libya (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030), Malaysia (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040), and Syria (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030).


The real competitor to the PAK FA in the foreseeable future is only the F-35 Lightning-2, as a heavy version of the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-22. Due to its excessive price (approximately $250 million per aircraft for export) there is hardly the demand in the world arms market.


In addition, in the first half of the twenty-first century, a number of countries faced growing competition from the U.S. They want to save the independence in policy and will have to seek cooperation partners in the production of high-tech weapons systems, analysts say.


In the future, a number of Western European countries and, above all, France and possibly Germany, will show the practical interest in the partnership with Russia to develop fifth generation fighter. They will not be able to implement similar program independently, from scratch. They will not want to buy the F-35, as is done now by other countries, because they do not want to get into the technological, and as a consequence, political dependence on the U.S.


The fifth-generation aircraft is planned to take part in the aerospace show MAKS-2011. General Director of Sukhoi said that the aircraft had carried out 16 test flights, and to date the extent of its systems in terms of reliability and security allows for the program of flight tests in full. During the years 2011-12 it is planned to complete testing of the new fighter.

First Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin estimated the need for Air Force fighter of the fifth generation at 50-100 units. By the way, Russia's own needs in the new generation of the equipment, given the size of the country, are estimated as very modest. In 2013-2015 the Ministry of Defense will buy the installation batch of ten aircrafts, and by 2020 a serial batch of 60 units will be purchased for the Air Force.


According to the Stockholm Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Russia ranked second worldwide in terms of weapons exported. On the world market, Russia's share is 23%, while the USA has 30%. In 2001-2005, Russia has been a leader in supplying arms overseas - 31% vs. 30% of the U.S. Russia spends four times less than Japan, Germany and three times less than the Czech Republic on research and experimental development.


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## SpArK



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## Agnostic_Indian

*Indian input to exceed one third of the
total D& D of the IAF s FGFA
The T- 50 (FGFA ).* Many of FGFA/ PMF
technologies were tested first on Su-35
fighters
___________________________________________
____________________________
Atul Chandra
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)
will have a substantial role in the
development of the 5th generation
Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF)
being developed for the Indian Air
Force (IAF ) over the next decade. N.C .
Agarwal who retired as director,
Design and Development, HAL, last
month told FORCE that, Indian
designers would contribute over one-
third of the total share of R &D
(including all prototypes) for the
project along with Russia, by the time
aircraft is certified. The India team will
have access to all the design data and
information and a number of
agreements with the requisite
confidentiality clauses have been
signed in this regard .
HAL will primarily be involved with
redesign of the structure for the twin-
seat variant and oversee the
integration of a number of systems
that have been specified by the IAF. In
the preliminary design phase expected
to be completed by in the last quarter
of 2012, HAL will ascertain the impact
of changes that need to be made to
the aircraft for the twin seat variant
desired by the IAF. *The PMF currently
sports a radar cross section of
approximately 0.5 and it needs to be
seen if the twin-seat variant will have
reduced stealth characteristics due to
the increased cross section as also
changes to its aerodynamic and g 
performance. According to Agarwal,
The changes would mean keeping a
close eye on the Radar Cross Section
(RCS) , the engines will remain the same
and should not affect stealth as the IR
signature primarily comes from
reheat . The ability to super-cruise will
also contribute to stealth as the IR
signature will be substantially reduced
without use of reheat.*
It appears that the Indian side will
make contributions with regards to the
software, electronics and advanced
mechanical systems on the PMF (FGFA /
T- 50).
Derivatives of a number of mechanical
systems developed within the country
by various organisations for a number
of home- grown programmes could
find their way to the PMF. In fact, it
has been conveyed to the Indian team,
that if Indian developed systems are
superior to those developed by Russia,
then they will be incorporated on the
Russian variants as well. It is very likely
that Indian developed systems could
be part of the Russian T- 50 (FGFA ).
NPO Saturn will begin development of
a brand new engine expected to
generate around 18 tonne of thrust,
though it is five to six years away from
being installed on the FGFA/ PMF.
According to Agarwal, The offer to
partner in the development of a brand
new and higher thrust engine is open,
and the country should utilise this
opportunity to enter this field even if
the costs involved are extra . ITAR-
TASS has quoted Ilya Fyodorov,
managing director of NPO Saturn as
saying that the new engine will be on
the FGFA by 2017. Apart from a few
aircraft, the PMF entering IAF service is
likely to be fitted with the new engine
around 2020.
The glass cockpit will be developed by
Russia and India though initially the
eight inch x 10 inch and 12 inch x 10
inch Multi Functional Display s (MFD)
will come from Russia. These displays
are also being developed in India and
could be incorporated on Russian
aircraft if they demonstrate better
performance. The PMF cockpit is likely
to be very similar to that already seen
on the Su-35 with a number of Indian
systems and the addition of a large
wide
angle HUD as seen on the FGFA
prototypes flying currently. In fact the
10 inch x 12 inch display is already
being offered for the Su-30 MKI
upgrade to the IAF and many upgrade
items on the Su-30 MKI will make its
way to the PMF. A high quality Helmet
Mounted Display System (HMDS) will
also be incorporated.

FORCE-A Complete News Magazine on National Security-Defence Magazine,Indian Defence,AERO India 2011 Bangalore Bengaluru,magazine on Indian navy,Indian Army,Indian Air Force,Indian Paramilitary forces,Naxalism,Jammu & Kashmir,terrorism,national securi

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## tvsram1992

localoca said:


> ...
> 
> J-20 will be inducted first than T-50...


 
Then its clear that it is a 4.5 gen fighter, with out indigenous engine that can perfectly super cruise,high ir signature engine,lack of perfect thrust vectoring, less situational awareness than best planes like f22,f35,pakfa,not much speed data links, debut aesa radar,High rcs causing canards,huge size,less r&d time ....

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## conworldus

tvsram1992 said:


> Then its clear that it is a 4.5 gen fighter, with out indigenous engine that can perfectly super cruise,high ir signature engine,lack of perfect thrust vectoring, less situational awareness than best planes like f22,f35,pakfa,not much speed data links, debut aesa radar,High rcs causing canards,huge size,less r&d time ....


 
Genius. Did you work on the J-20 to know all these? Sorry, we don't hire Indians


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## Firemaster

conworldus said:


> Genius. Did you work on the J-20 to know all these? Sorry, we don't hire Indians


 
So you hired Somalians
Atleast you admit you hired someone much better than you

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## conworldus

Firemaster said:


> So you hired Somalians
> Atleast you admit you hired someone much better than you


 
I have no idea what you mean.

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## aimarraul



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## siegecrossbow

aimarraul said:


>


 
The levcons actually look pretty big from this angle... No doubt that they could be used as mini-canards.


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## razgriz19



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## Black Widow

siegecrossbow said:


> The levcons actually look pretty big from this angle... No doubt that they could be used as mini-canards.


 
Watch it, On this cancard issue, I was about to banned, Luckily I survived...


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## SpArK

*Anyone will get a chance to observe PAK-FA's flight
​*






Russian fifth-generation fighter will make first public flight at Moscow air show MAKS-2011.


Russia's Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter, also known as PAK-FA, will perform its first public flight at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow in August, Nikolai Zanegin, Deputy General Director of Russia's Aviasalon company, said. 

&#8220;Numerous visitors will see the fifth-generation fighter in the sky for the first time ever at the air show,&#8221; Zanegin said in an interview with Russian magazine National Defense.

The Sukhoi T-50 fighter is being developed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East. The first prototype conducted its maiden flight in January 2010 and has so far carried out over 40 test flights. Two more prototypes are at various stages of testing. The Russian Air Force has said it had plans to acquire over 60 T-50 fighters after 2015.

Although the T-50&#8217;s specifications remain classified, reports indicate that the design incorporates the latest fighter jet developments, including advanced stealth capability, supersonic cruising speed, and integrated control and avionics systems.

Military experts say that the T-50 will compete with the Lockheed Martin F-22, the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II and the Eurofighter Typhoon from the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS).

The MAKS-2011 air show will be held at Zhukovsky outside Moscow on August 16-21. In all, 627 companies, including 473 Russian and 154 foreign, have registered to take part in the air show .

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## sancho

I'm looking forward to the MAKS 2011, especially because of T50, but I also hope to get more infos on FGFA, or MKI upgrade and as it seems the Rafale will be their as well, so we might see a big part of IAF future fleet in Russian skies. Pak Fa/FGFA, Su 30, Mig 29, Rafale, would be great if we would attend the airshow with Tejas as well.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> I'm looking forward to the MAKS 2011, especially because of T50, but I also hope to get more infos on FGFA, or MKI upgrade and as it seems the Rafale will be their as well, so we might see a big part of IAF future fleet in Russian skies. Pak Fa/FGFA, Su 30, Mig 29, Rafale, would be great if we would attend the airshow with Tejas as well.


 
Undoubtedly you are Tejas Fan. I am not saying this because you want Tejas in MAKS, but you kicked *"Gripen"* out of MRCA in favor of *Tejas*!!!


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Undoubtedly you are Tejas Fan. I am not saying this because you want Tejas in MAKS, but you kicked *"Gripen"* out of MRCA in favor of *Tejas*!!!


 
Or like I would kick AMCA for FGFA


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Or like I would kick AMCA for FGFA


 
Please dont,Now that AURA is in making you shouldnt FGFA, AMCA and AURA will be a very valuable addition to IAF.


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## marcos98

http://russianplanes.net

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## marcos98



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## Alugaar

what about 3rd prototype ????


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
I think it will come by the end of this year.


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## perplexed

4th pic with the jet plume visible is awesome !!


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## marcos98

PAKFA practicing for MAKS-2011

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## Lord Of Gondor

Are there any specific reasons as to why the PAk FA's engines are left uncovered?
Does this use the Bugatti Veyron's mantra- "to keep the Engine cool"?


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## RusoIndian

PAK FA/FGFA wil be India's air superiority fighter of the future only difference is FGFA 2 seat, IMO 2 seat is better one pilot trained well in flying the other one trained good with weapons etc and paint job on PAK FA is looking good


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## sancho



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## SpArK



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## sancho



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## Water Car Engineer



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## S10

Don't know if posted, drawing of what FGFA may look like:

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## RusoIndian

AL-41F engine


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## StormShadow

Oh my gosh!!! Deadly sight!! And we are ordering 300 of them!!

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## Quick MIK

thanks for this awesome pics bro....


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## SpArK

*Awesomeness*

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## Major.

It will look awe some once they fit the 5 gen engine which is round the corner....this beast is really good looking...!!


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## Water Car Engineer

http://www.afa.org/edop/2010/PAK-FA%27sFirstFlighton29JAN10REV5.pdf


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## wmdisinfo

PAK FA means pakistani fighter aircraft???? pakistan should file a copyright complain and get royalty for the usage of word PAK lol


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## wmdisinfo

this is 4.5 generation coz i cant see any thrust vectoring tecnology.india is bluffed again by russia


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## Roybot

wmdisinfo said:


> this is 4.5 generation coz i cant see any thrust vectoring tecnology.india is bluffed again by russia


 
Yes yes Indian Ministry of Defence, did a visual inspection just like yourself, to see if PAKFA has thrust vectoring or not.

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## Quick MIK

wmdisinfo said:


> this is 4.5 generation coz i cant see any thrust vectoring tecnology.india is bluffed again by russia


 
India must partner pakistan in their 5th generation jf 17 fighter aircraft.is that enough

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## SpArK

wmdisinfo said:


> just check the photos and then check the thrust vectoring on google u will find out how it looks like admit it u r being bluffed by russia again


 
I suggest your name for the PDF -Military Professional Title. I hope Mods make you one... Good to have you here sir. Hoping to learn more from you.

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## AgnosticIndianNationalist

2017 will be great year for IAF


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## GORKHALI

wmdisinfo said:


> just check the photos and then check the thrust vectoring on google u will find out how it looks like admit it u r being bluffed by russia again


  




How you went to UK ??becoz by looking at the quality of posts and hated, am bit worried about UKiets .

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## OrionHunter

wmdisinfo said:


> PAK FA means pakistani fighter aircraft???? pakistan should file a copyright complain and get royalty for the usage of word PAK lol


 Gud 1 !!!

It actually is a Russian word(s):

*&#1055;*&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; *&#1040;*&#1074;&#1080;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081;* &#1050;*&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089; 

Which means, *P*erspective *A*viation *K*omplex (Complex)

Cheers!


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## Black Widow

wmdisinfo said:


> PAK FA means pakistani fighter aircraft???? pakistan should file a copyright complain and get royalty for the usage of word PAK lol


 
Due to your post, we lost many constructive dialougs ...

@ topic: Can some one identify the machine towed at 0.26-0.29 in the vedio, I am unable to identify this UFO.... I think in the later half of vedio its F15.. isn't it?


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## Night_Raven

wmdisinfo said:


> this is 4.5 generation coz i cant see any thrust vectoring tecnology.india is bluffed again by russia


 
 

This one deserves to be the Joke-of-the-Day. Keep entertaining us !!


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> I suggest your name for the PDF -Military Professional Title. I hope Mods make you one... Good to have you here sir. Hoping to learn more from you.


 
I suggest 'Researcher' .. good mates he will have in that area..


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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> I suggest 'Researcher' .. good mates he will have in that area..


 
Instead of mocking him, can you please answer to my query in post 20, I need to know it desperately...


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## Night_Raven

Black Widow said:


> Due to your post, we lost many constructive dialougs ...
> 
> @ topic: Can some one identify the machine towed at 0.26-0.29 in the vedio, I am unable to identify this UFO.... I think in the later half of vedio its F15.. isn't it?


 
I doubt the towed bird is an F-15 , F-15 has vertical standing tails , whereas the camouflaged plane has angled tails ...


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## Black Widow

Night_Raven said:


> I doubt the towed bird is an F-15 , F-15 has vertical standing tails , whereas the camouflaged plane has angled tails ...


 
I agree , F15 is in later part from 0.50 to 1.07... isn't it??? But the towed one is still not clear.. I am unable to recognize it. Can some experience guy tell what i sit???

Luckly I found MAKS 2011 Official website...

http://www.aviasalon.com/en/gallery.htm


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## sathya

wmdisinfo said:


> PAK FA means pakistani fighter aircraft???? pakistan should file a copyright complain and get royalty for the usage of word PAK lol


 
dude even i had that doubt.
i left it thinking that it meant *FA*tal to *PAK* = *PAK FA*
now i realized its Russian name.


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## Raje amar

did anybody noticed the extended part of the tail between both the engines of the second plane?
Whats that? Some modification?


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## MUHARIB

Awesome beast..


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## DarK-LorD

JonAsad said:


> wtf wtf- some body shoot it down--


I am giving you this missile for shooting them down.


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## MUHARIB

JonAsad said:


> wtf wtf- some body shoot it down--


 
Why dont you guys try it!!  hehe


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## GORKHALI

*WOW!!!!!!!!!!!*

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## GORKHALI



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## GORKHALI

* PAK FA. RVV-BD(Raketa Vozduh-Vozduh Bolshoy Dalnosti)(DADDY OF ALL Long Range Air-to-Air Missile) RANGE :Upto 398km*

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## bhagat

Liquid said:


>


 
i am loving it......


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## SQ8

STOP FLAMING ON THE GODDAMN TOPIC.. OR ILL SKIP THE INFRACTION PART AND JUST STRAIGHT BAN THE OFFENDER.

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## MilSpec

We need to attach a very high incentive to finish the development of FGFA for IAF. May be higher incentive would fast-track this project and we might get hands on our first 5th gen Air Dominance Fighter. Btw beautiful pics... gr88 post


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## SQ8

Btw.. any differences between the two prototypes?.. apart from the obvious paint job.


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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^There was one where "Sancho" had marked the changes.It was right after the second prototype flew,i think that it was in the old PAK FA thread.
I'll search it and post the link
EDIT-Got it.http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/96053-2nd-pak-fa-prototype-maiden-flight-pics-5.html
See Post #74

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## Abingdonboy

wmdisinfo said:


> this is 4.5 generation coz i cant see any thrust vectoring tecnology.india is bluffed again by russia


 
Yes, you are right the PAK FA is a 4.5gen fighter because the PROTOTYPE hasn't been fitted with the thrust vectored, supercrusing engines that are still being developed!! Because the only difference between 4.5 and 5 gen is THRUST VECTORING!!! Because the rest of the world is using a different definition of "5th gen" right? It has nothing to do with AESA, low observability, internal weapons bays, super cruise, sensor fusion and super manoeuvrability (achieved by thrust VECTORING and lees stealthy canards). 


In that case the IAF SU-30MKI is a 5th gen??!! Thanks mate, I never knew that!

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## Zabaniyah

Looks good. But engines still need work.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Zabanya said:


> Looks good. But engines still need work.


 
They will be replaced by AL-41 in the PV-4,which will,in all probability be a pre-production variant


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## nomi007

i m waiting for this show from long time
2nd Russian pak-fa is great but still engine design is not like 5th generation like f-22


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## Bratva

What is great about this machine will be Sensor fusion, Taking data from 4 Radars (Xband and L-Band) and from IRST EW system and many other sensors and combining all these data and projecting it on MFD's. 

One more question is Russia working on JHMCS type system for PAK FA?


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## Firemaster

PANDORA said:


> * PAK FA. RVV-BD(Raketa Vozduh-Vozduh Bolshoy Dalnosti)(DADDY OF ALL Long Range Air-to-Air Missile) RANGE :Upto 398km*


 
What will be the Range of AESA Radar if Missile Range is 398Km.??


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## sancho

Santro said:


> Btw.. any differences between the two prototypes?.. apart from the obvious paint job.


 
Besides the differences I pointed out earlier, the first prototype (serial number 51) now has some changes at the tail sting:
















On the Key forum it was said that an anti-spin chute was integrated, here is the F22 with such a chute:

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## Archie

Firemaster said:


> What will be the Range of AESA Radar if Missile Range is 398Km.??



Well . Indian FGFA is suposed to come with a 500 Km range AESA 
Though Russia will Begin delivery of PAKFA with only a 400 Km range AESA radar for IAF and 450 Km range AESA for Russian Military

Both Aircrafts will get upgraded radars in later blocks

Even today Russian Novator Kh100 awac Killer missile has range of 400 Km


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## sancho

mafiya said:


> What is great about this machine will be Sensor fusion, Taking data from 4 Radars (Xband and L-Band) and from IRST EW system and many other sensors and combining all these data and projecting it on MFD's.
> 
> One more question is Russia working on JHMCS type system for PAK FA?


 
Actually it will be at least 5 radar arrays, 3 X - Band and 2 L - Band radars, possibly even an 6th one that could be housed in the tail sting:







Pak Fa / FGFA will also get 360° EW sensors, to increase the situational awareness, like the MAWS behind the cockpit. A new HMS will come for sure, but might be too early for such details.

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## Screambowl

SpArK said:


> I suggest your name for the PDF -Military Professional Title. I hope Mods make you one... Good to have you here sir. Hoping to learn more from you.


 
hahahahahaha!!!


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## GORKHALI




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## Screambowl

I am sure the will be covering up the engine Nozzles to prevent the heat signature from exhaust because I could see some smoke trails in some of the photos.


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## GORKHALI

Screambowl said:


> I am sure the will be covering up the engine Nozzles to prevent the heat signature from exhaust because I could see some smoke trails in some of the photos.


 
Smoke trails might also be due to environmental factor too.
However i think final version of PAK FA might end up like this

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## The_magnificent

Archie said:


> Well . Indian FGFA is suposed to come with a 500 Km range AESA
> Though Russia will Begin delivery of PAKFA with only a 400 Km range AESA radar for IAF and 450 Km range AESA for Russian Military
> 
> Both Aircrafts will get upgraded radars in later blocks
> 
> Even today Russian Novator Kh100 awac Killer missile has range of 400 Km


 
Even more thn AWACS ?? Who need Phalcon AWACS if we will buy 250 radar platforms of 500 km range.

Can anyone provide source of 500 km radar or 398 km Aoa missile ?


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## Tshering22

Great! I can't wait to see the more heavily modified production version, assuming that we take Pogosyan's word of 2010 when he said that the 6th or 7th prototype will be radically different from the current prototypes, as it will be the last prototype about to enter the production. .

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## indian navy

when will be these birds will be in IAF color


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## Firemaster

The_magnificent said:


> Even more thn AWACS ?? Who need Phalcon AWACS if we will buy 250 radar platforms of 500 km range.
> 
> Can anyone provide source of 500 km radar or 398 km Aoa missile ?


 
AWACS PROVIDE 360 Degree Coverage plus AWACS has more crew members to understand situation plus AWACS can Track more targets Simultaneously plus AWACS can be linked with Ground Crew and Satellite plus AWACS can stay Longer in Air Without Refueling

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## typhoon77

> Btw.. any differences between the two prototypes?.. apart from the obvious paint job.



From metberkut @ MP.net

I will go through all the differences that is known so far/spotted, i am talking about T-50-2 now:

- Has "teeth" in front of the nose cone. RCS measures, ala MiG-29K/KUB.
- Station behind canopy.
- Smaller IRST. It is either a smaller and black painted mock up still, or it is a real IRST.
- Reinforcement bars or sensors on the horizontal tails.
- On "naked" pictures you can see rivets placed on strategic places on the sidebays. Aka, it got hydraulics to operate them.
- Has some sort of censor or something on top of the beaver tail. Shaped like "pyramid".
- LEVCON differences. It appears the tip of them are made in radio transparent material. There is also differences in how they are attached/moved.
- Canopy doesn't have middle strength bar.
- Paint differences.
- If you compare pics, there is some differences on smaller stuff above/around the engines.
- Differences in panel's around the frame

I see everything he's talking about except the LEVCON differences.

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## typhoon77

Its funny that some posters were commenting on how terrible the surface finishing on PAK-FA was and how it would be detrimental to its RCS. Looks pretty good from here!!


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## vikrams

[video]http://defensetech.org/2011/06/10/video-sukhoi-pak-fa-stealth-fighter-aerobatics/[/video]


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## Water Car Engineer

^^^

Offtopic, found this..

DRDO is on this, not just HAL.


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## Water Car Engineer

*The best PICTURE!!*

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## Water Car Engineer




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## sancho



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## praveen007

*Now here is an interview of NPO chief where he says that PAK-FA is all ready flying with new fifth gen. engine npo-117,* 
.
Q - Since United Engine Corporation been
formed , 5 th generation Fighter T-50 " climbed
into the sky and is undergoing flight tests , the
first Superjet already been transferred to
commercial airlines ... What in your opinion the
most important changes occurred in the Russian
aviation industry during this period (3 years) that
we acquired, and what can be lost?
A - The main thing in my opinion, is that joint
efforts succeeded in stopping the fall of the
industry. This required the efforts of many, first
and foremost, I would note Mikhail Pogosyan
and Eugene Marchukov - the General Designer
of the engine for the T-50.
For military aircraft, we have created two
engines - one for the aircraft, like Su-35 ",
the second - for the Russian aircraft 5 th
generation of T-50". The first - is "117C" - is
mainly intended for export. He is more
simple in terms of aerodynamics, and most
importantly - targeted for aircraft with
conventional arms, suspended on pylons
outside the fuselage, with no strong
constraints on dimensions. Such schemes
fro example are used on 4-th generation
aircraft s , exported to India and Malaysia.
*The second engine - is "117" - though only differ
by one letter in the title, much more advanced
engine - this is a real engine of the 5-th
generation. From the rivals can sometimes be
heard the 5-th generation engine should be
with such a blade, such and such materials, high-
speed rotors, and you do not have this ... None
of this is all just ways of achieving the goal. A
single goal - increasing specific thrust, ie the ratio
of thrust to its weight.* For example, the first jet
engine Arkhip Mikhailovich Lulka weighed 1350 kg
and had the same thrust, that is, its specific thrust
is equal to 1. The 4 th generation engine ,
"AL-31F, has already managed to achieve specific
thrust of 8.7, and on a 5 th generation, the figure
is 10.
*The new engine delivers a supersonic speed
without afterburner mode. What it gives? If
before the fighter was flying to the target with the
speed of 700 km / h, now - it is twice as fast.
Our "117" today is already flying on two
T-50s. For the company it is quite a major
achievement, a large move forward. Although it
never was easy.* We also have new ideas, we can
boast some good groundwork. What is needed
in the field of military aviation - the beginning of
this mass production? To protect such a large
country like ours, from a serious attack the
number as 500-1000 aircrafts is needed . For
this needed orders, money, production
infrastructure.
.
*Defunct Humanity: New interview with Al-41F chief designer*

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## Firemaster

@ Parveen007 why did not post full interview


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## Firemaster

Russia-India business dialog
An interesting business dialog is available on the site of SIEF. Between most important high technology news : one Indian company will produce GaN chips in S-Petersburg starting from the next year. I think the news can be crossed with PAK FA development (radar choice). Some other news regarding the cooperation between India and Russia were published there too. However, they mistakingly put the English translation on the Russian version and vice versa, which is very typical for all Indo-Russian cooperation last 5 years while best intentions are mixing with poor organization. Some points of the critics from me: Sergey Ivanov is not the best figure to sit around the table since he is personally responsible for Gorshkov failure (he signed the first Gorshkov agreement without deep insight). Despite some discomfort I heard the Indian police maker and diplomats with pleasure, especially a bank-men, from which we can learn much how to behave in time of financial turmoils. BTW I think it's not a skill of politicians but the peculiarity of the long live Indian civilization - to know how struggle the most hard economic circumstances with minimal damage for society. We Russians have a way to learn from Indians in financial sphere I always said. The speeches of Russian businessmen were sometime interesting too.


Defunct Humanity: Russia-India business dialog

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## praveen007

Firemaster said:


> @ Parveen007 why did not post full interview


. 
.
We must follow fare-use-pollicy while posting articals as the writers have spaned time-money and other resources to attract the traffic on their site to get some finence.
And we must appriciate it.

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## RPK




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## praveen007

*and there is an other suprise
.
A second 5th gen. Engine TYPE-30 .*
.
Q - In the difficult years for the Russian aircraft
industry, aircraft building companies that
produced military aircraft survived by exports,
especially in China and India. Today, the Chinese
have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on
world markets at dumping prices. Not whether
as a result we lose our traditional markets of
combat aircraft?
A - We dont, because such an aircraft as we
have, the Chinese have no and will have no in
visible prospective. They say that they have
made a 5-th generation plane, but one can say
anything ... Their best engine was copied
from our "AL-31F. *And we produce 5-th
generation engines , and they are in all of their
parameters of thrust, specific fuel consumption
correspond to the 5-th generation. I opened the
secret and say that we actually already
have two 5-th generation engines. The
second, which is now conventionally called
the "Type 30", has already been tested in
flight on the fighter T-50 ". In the future it
probably will give the name of "AL-...."
According to its parameters it a 15-25 percent better than "117 th".
.
.
.
From same article.*

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## razgriz19

ok so why does IAF wants a twin seater?
i know it takes off the work load from the pilot, good for strike missions, etc, but are there any other MAIN reasons?


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## RPK

*HAL team in Moscow to assess 5th gen fighter with Russia - Bangalore - DNA*


Sukhoi T-50, the base platform of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) which is being jointly developed by Indias Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Russia, will make its first public appearance today at the MAKS Air Show in Moscow. The event has caused much excitement at HAL which is sending a delegation to Moscow for the event.

The HAL delegation headed by senior officials who are involved in the FGFA programme will attend the air show to witness Sukhoi T-50s first public flight.

The Bangalore headquartered defence PSU is also among the participants at the MAKS Air Show.

HAL will be developing the FGFA along with Russias Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB), the latter being the manufacturers of the Sukhoi-30 MKIs which have substantially improved the strike capability of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The official website of the MAKS Air Show said that for the first time the T-50 (also known as PAK-FA fighter) would take part in a public flight display. The air show will be held till August 19.

The aircraft, which has already undergone a number of flight tests in Russia since its first flight in January 2010, will have advanced features such as stealth, super cruise, ultra-manoeuvrability, a highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities.

The aircraft at the MAKS air show will be a single seat aircraft, but the FGFA being developed for India will be a two-seat version of the Sukhoi T-50.

A total of 500 aircraft will be developed by India and Russia initially with the two countries inducting 250 aircraft each.

The T-50 will be the major attraction in the air show which is expected to be attended by 30 countries, including the USA.

The T-50 will be keenly watched by the Americans as this Indo-Russia joint venture is said to be a global competitor to the USs stealth aircraft - F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.

Russian International News Agency (RIA) Novosti has reported that the aircraft has been placed on a shortlist of a South Korean tender for the delivery of advanced fighter jets.

The report added that Korea is seeking to buy 60 fighters with advanced stealth capability from a foreign aircraft maker.

The F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II are said to be the other competitors.

This apart, the US Senate Armed Services Committee is also pushing for a while to sell the F-35 Lightning II to India regardless of the Indo-Russian FGFA programme

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## lmjiao

Beautiful plane

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## fast

Good. More turkey shoot for F-22.


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## Lord Of Gondor

fast said:


> Good. More turkey shoot for F-22.


 
Amen


----------



## RPK

India has helped Russia develop the new jet, and said recently it would cover 35 percent of the estimated $6 billion development costs.

New stealth fighter jet 'principal' for Russia, India | Defense | RIA Novosti


----------



## SpArK

*Indo-Russia T-50 stealth fighter to make its international debut​*

MOSCOW: T-50 stealth fighter jointly developed by Russia and India will make its first international public appearance at the MAKS airshow which went underway in Moscow, where Moscow unveiled its newest space shuttle, armed drones and a new range of upgraded weapons. 

Two prototypes of the single seater jet, estimated to cost USD 6 billion, are expected to fly over Zhukovsky air field on the outskirts of Moscow. 

"The co-development projects of the two countries will remain centerpiece of the Russian aviation industry", declared Mikhail Pogosyan, President of the United Aircraft Corporation, makers of the aircraft. 

Sukhoi's T-50 made its maiden flight in January 2010 and is expected to enter service by 2015. "The stealth fighter is progressing as planned and the new engine for the plane will be ready in time", Pogosyan said. 

The fifth generation Sukhoi T-50, also called the PAK FA for its Russian abbreviations for a perspective frontline aviation complex, is meant to be a rival to the US joint strike fighter F-22 Raptor. 

Pogosyan had earlier said that Russia planned to develop upto 1,000 stealth fighters over the coming decade as aviation experts say that the Russian military orders will account for more than 50 per cent of the combat planes' produce. 

He said that the Russian airforce is expected to buy 20 new fighters annually in the coming years. 

Top Russian aircraft makers including Sukhoi and Mig have survived thanks to orders from India and China, but steady increase in government defence spending over the past few years have given new incentives to the nation's aircraft industries. 

The Indian projects jointly developed by the two countries will remain the centrepiece of the Russian aviation industry, according to a top official. 

Speaking with the reporters after the inauguration of the 10th International Aviation and Space Saloon (MAKS-2011), here President of the United Aircraft Corporation Mikhail Pogosyan told that the fifth generation fighter Russia's new stealth fighter jet, which is expected to make its first public appearance during the air show Another static T-50 is expected to be demonstrated to a 'select' group'. 

*"The T-50 will be the newest main plane both for the Russian and Indian Air Force," Pogosyan said. *

The fifth generation Sukhoi T-50, also called the PAK FA for its Russian abbreviations for a perspective frontline aviation complex, is meant to be a rival to the US joint strike fighter F-22 Raptor. 

According to the local media reports* the Indian version of the FGFA will be a lighter derivative of the PAK FA. *

The projects for the joint development of Multimode Transport Aircraft (MTA) and deeper modernisation of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters under the 'Super-30" project are among the key joint Indo-Russian projects. 

India has a larger footprint at MAKS-2011, the air show which is held at alternate years, with an expanded presence. 

*Unlike in the past when BrahMos JV used to display its deadly missiles under the roof of its Russian partner, India has its exclusive stall displaying the models of its cruise missiles, including an outdoor life-size mock-up of BrahMos cruise missile for the Sukhoi fighters. 
*

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited also has a bigger display exhibiting models of the helicopters and planes produced by it. 

This year's new entrant is Bharat Electronics, with a whole range of its avionics and force multipliers. 

A huge IL-76 Flying Laboratory of Gromov Flight Research Institute with a Kaveri engine fitted on its test bed is also indicative of the scope of bilateral cooperation in cutting edge technologies. 

The plane also bears the Seal of India's DRDO, showing an enduring interaction between the two organisations.

In all over 800 Russian and foreign firms, including Boeing and Airbus are taking part in MAKS airshow.


Indo-Russia T-50 stealth fighter to make its international debut - The Economic Times

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## rockstarIN

Wow..FGFA is lighter than PAK FA ............means more stealtier..


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## Abingdonboy

rockstar said:


> Wow..FGFA is lighter than PAK FA ............means more stealtier..


 


SpArK said:


> *Indo-Russia T-50 stealth fighter to make its international debut​*
> 
> MOSCOW: T-50 stealth fighter jointly developed by Russia and India will make its first international public appearance at the MAKS airshow which went underway in Moscow, where Moscow unveiled its newest space shuttle, armed drones and a new range of upgraded weapons.
> 
> Two prototypes of the single seater jet, estimated to cost USD 6 billion, are expected to fly over Zhukovsky air field on the outskirts of Moscow.
> 
> "The co-development projects of the two countries will remain centerpiece of the Russian aviation industry", declared Mikhail Pogosyan, President of the United Aircraft Corporation, makers of the aircraft.
> 
> Sukhoi's T-50 made its maiden flight in January 2010 and is expected to enter service by 2015. "The stealth fighter is progressing as planned and the new engine for the plane will be ready in time", Pogosyan said.
> 
> The fifth generation Sukhoi T-50, also called the PAK FA for its Russian abbreviations for a perspective frontline aviation complex, is meant to be a rival to the US joint strike fighter F-22 Raptor.
> 
> Pogosyan had earlier said that Russia planned to develop upto 1,000 stealth fighters over the coming decade as aviation experts say that the Russian military orders will account for more than 50 per cent of the combat planes' produce.
> 
> He said that the Russian airforce is expected to buy 20 new fighters annually in the coming years.
> 
> Top Russian aircraft makers including Sukhoi and Mig have survived thanks to orders from India and China, but steady increase in government defence spending over the past few years have given new incentives to the nation's aircraft industries.
> 
> The Indian projects jointly developed by the two countries will remain the centrepiece of the Russian aviation industry, according to a top official.
> 
> Speaking with the reporters after the inauguration of the 10th International Aviation and Space Saloon (MAKS-2011), here President of the United Aircraft Corporation Mikhail Pogosyan told that the fifth generation fighter Russia's new stealth fighter jet, which is expected to make its first public appearance during the air show Another static T-50 is expected to be demonstrated to a 'select' group'.
> 
> *"The T-50 will be the newest main plane both for the Russian and Indian Air Force," Pogosyan said. *
> 
> The fifth generation Sukhoi T-50, also called the PAK FA for its Russian abbreviations for a perspective frontline aviation complex, is meant to be a rival to the US joint strike fighter F-22 Raptor.
> 
> According to the local media reports* the Indian version of the FGFA will be a lighter derivative of the PAK FA. *
> 
> The projects for the joint development of Multimode Transport Aircraft (MTA) and deeper modernisation of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters under the 'Super-30" project are among the key joint Indo-Russian projects.
> 
> India has a larger footprint at MAKS-2011, the air show which is held at alternate years, with an expanded presence.
> 
> *Unlike in the past when BrahMos JV used to display its deadly missiles under the roof of its Russian partner, India has its exclusive stall displaying the models of its cruise missiles, including an outdoor life-size mock-up of BrahMos cruise missile for the Sukhoi fighters.
> *
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited also has a bigger display exhibiting models of the helicopters and planes produced by it.
> 
> This year's new entrant is Bharat Electronics, with a whole range of its avionics and force multipliers.
> 
> A huge IL-76 Flying Laboratory of Gromov Flight Research Institute with a Kaveri engine fitted on its test bed is also indicative of the scope of bilateral cooperation in cutting edge technologies.
> 
> The plane also bears the Seal of India's DRDO, showing an enduring interaction between the two organisations.
> 
> In all over 800 Russian and foreign firms, including Boeing and Airbus are taking part in MAKS airshow.
> 
> 
> Indo-Russia T-50 stealth fighter to make its international debut - The Economic Times


 
How can a two seat fighter be lighter than the single seat fighter it is derived from if it has the same capabilities?


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Not to mention twin seat will increase RCS and thereby effecting the stealth of FGFA unless some counter-measures are deployed. I think if RCS is more IAF should consider purchasing more single seater t50.



> Wow..FGFA is lighter than PAK FA ............means more stealtier..


I don't think weight has anything to do with stealth.


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## razgriz19

rockstar said:


> Wow..FGFA is lighter than PAK FA ............means more stealtier..


 
dont get me wrong but I THINK it means watered down version...


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## thebrownguy

razgriz19 said:


> dont get me wrong but I THINK it means watered down version...


 Well thats what i thought too.


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## vijayjha

nice plane

---------- Post added at 05:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 AM ----------

 good going india


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## Abingdonboy

razgriz19 said:


> dont get me wrong but I THINK it means watered down version...


 


thebrownguy said:


> Well thats what i thought too.


 
I don't think so, if anything the FGFA will be MORE advanced than the PAK-FA, in the same way the MKI Is an improved version of the SU-30MK. And with 2 pilots it is more lethal. It is possible, having now looked into it, that the weight savings are made by fitting lighter, more advanced components sourced from India and Israel- in some key areas both countries are more advanced than Russia. And looking back I think I also understand that the FGFA will incorporate more carbon composites, a craft India is now well skilled in, thus reducing the overall weight.

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## sancho

razgriz19 said:


> ok so why does IAF wants a twin seater?
> i know it takes off the work load from the pilot, good for strike missions, etc, but are there any other MAIN reasons?


 
India is a big country and FGFA just like MKI today is meant for long range and long endurance patrol missions, so having 2 pilots that can fly the fighter (not only 1 pilot / 1 WSO), is obviously and advantage compared to a single pilot. The MKIs are reported to fly 9h missions, or more and staying focused for such a long time isn't that easy of course and like you pointed out, MKI is meant to be a fully multi role fighter, designed for A2A and A2G. Compared to Russia, which have the Su 35 for A2A mainly and the Su 34 for strikes mainly, the MKI fits perfectly inbetween. 




Abingdonboy said:


> How can a two seat fighter be lighter than the single seat fighter it is derived from if it has the same capabilities?


 
Correct, I have some big doubts about this part too, but maybe they just mean that it integrates more composites to reduce the weight.




angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Not to mention twin seat will increase RCS and thereby effecting the stealth of FGFA unless some counter-measures are deployed. I think if RCS is more IAF should consider purchasing more single seater t50.
> 
> 
> I don't think weight has anything to do with stealth.


 
I don't think the RCS would be increased that much, of course the surface is bigger, but keep in mind that it is just one part of the whole fighter and Pak Fa is a big fighter too. Lower weight could be used to add more RAM coatings, but in this case, I think it's more about weight reduction.


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## GORKHALI



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## RPK

*The new Russian fighter: shown today, here tomorrow - Indian Express*


For the past two weeks, Sergey L Bogdan has been missing out on his favorite hobby, playing ice hockey with friends in Moscow, a 45-minute drive from this testing facility. It has been difficult to keep away from, he says with a smile, but that is the precaution required to be able to pilot Russias new fifth-generation fighter and Indias future mainstay warplane on its first ever public appearance before the world.

Bogdan, who is the lead test pilot for the Russian T 50 fighter, will fly the new-generation aircraft at the Moscow Air Show on Wednesday. Till now, it has been a highly secretive project to create a futuristic aircraft to match the capabilities of the American F 22 Raptor and F 35 fifth generation fighters.

The public appearance marks a milestone also for India, which is partially funding the fifth-generation fighter programme and will co-develop a custom made version for the Air Force with induction planned by 2018. India, which signed a contract with Russia in December last year, has described it as the biggest defence programme ever in the history of India. The total deal is estimated at over the $30 billion mark. 

Now, Bogdan, who has flown 70 of the 80 test sorties that have been undertaken by the T 50, has for the first time come on record to say that Indian pilots will not find it difficult to fly the new-generation fighter.

It will not be hard to master the aircraft. Each new generation of fighters are easier to fly. While the tasks and missions handled by the aircraft will be more (than previous fighters flown by IAF), we are working to make the man machine interface better, Bogdan said, in his first ever interaction with the Indian media.

While work on the Indian version of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) has just about started, Bogdan says that the first public appearance of the fighter is significant for the Indian programme as the platform is common. India has placed additional requirements that include having two pilots for the fighter that is currently flown solo by Russia. An HAL team, led by MD Ashok Nayak, is also at the air show to check on the progress of the Indian program. The FGFA will be a leap ahead of the current generation of fighters flown by the IAF and incorporates stealth technologies that will make it invisible to radars.

Bogdan, who has 4,500 flying hours to his credit and has flown most types of Russian fighters, says that two prototypes of the fighter have been developed and currently test flights are being carried out to expand the flight envelope of the fighter.

*We are currently not taking it to a stress beyond 5 g but that will start once static tests are completed. The aircraft has flown at an altitude of 15,000 metres, says Bogdan, who underwent 400 hours of training before he undertook the first flight of the fighter in January 2010.*

Russia is planning to start serial production of the fighter by 2015 and is initially expected to get 70 of the modern fighters. India has come on record to say that it is expecting induction to begin by 2018 and is planning to induct 250-300 of the fighters, making them the mainstay of IAFs strike fleet. There is a sense of urgency within the IAF to expedite the program, given that China too has flown the first prototype of its own fifth generation fighter, the J 20, in January this year.

(The correspondent is attending the Moscow Air Show on the invitation of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation)


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## RPK

The induction of the FGFA into the Indian fleet is to begin in 2018 as the first prototype has already undergone several tests, the official added.

The FGFA will be a stealthy, lethal swing-role fighter with advanced avionics, 360-degree situational awareness, smart weapons, data links and high-end mission computers, the Indian Air Force has said.

*Indian Team Visits Moscow for Su T-50 Flight Demo - Defense News*


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## Vibs

*New stealth fighter to top the bill at Moscow Air Show*
A new generation prototype fighter is set to make its first public appearance at the Moscow Air Show this week.
The Sukhoi T-50 will be the jewel in the Russian Air Force&#8217;s crown. The service has relied on the Mikoyan MiG-29 and Sukhoi Su-27 family of combat aircraft as the core of its fighter force since the mid-1980s, but these aircraft are seen as approaching obsolescence.
The T-50 is Russia&#8217;s first new major combat aircraft design to fly since the end of Soviet Union. When an operational fighter based on it is put into service, possibly as soon as 2015, *it will be the Russian Air Force&#8217;s first stealth aircraft, featuring low-observable technology that makes it almost impossible to detect with radar.*
Like its US counterpart, the F-22 Raptor, it will be able to cruise at supersonic speeds, and be capable of pulling high-G maneuvers that older aircraft cannot match thanks to thrust-vectoring exhaust nozzles and a high-tech flight control system.
*Although it looks similar to America&#8217;s stealth fighters, analysts say the aircraft is not simply a copy and shows Russia still has excellent design expertise.
&#8220;This is not &#8216;F-22ski&#8217;,&#8221; says Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS).*
The T-50 made its first flight at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur factory airfield in Siberia in January, and since then two prototypes have been undergoing flight tests at the Zhukovsky flight test center near Moscow.
*The T-50 is being touted in some quarters as Russia&#8217;s return to the leading edge of military aviation, but the aircraft is not yet a finished item, and Russia had to rely on outside funding to get the machine into the air.
India will pay for 35 percent of the estimated $6 billion development costs, D. Shivamurti of Hindustan Aeronautics, the Indian manufacturing partner in the project, said earlier this year.*
Getting it into front-line squadrons will be the real next challenge, analysts say.
&#8220;The real issue is, has Russia got the budget to develop it and put it into service,&#8221; says Craig Hoyle, Defense Aviation Correspondent for Flight International magazine.
The big question is just how many of these super-fighters Russia can afford. The Russian Air Force has said it wants to buy around 50 to 60 initially.
&#8220;That is nowhere near enough, even with a reduced air force,&#8221; Barrie from IISS says.
Russia wants to field up to 200 aircraft eventually, but cost will be a crucial issue. Even the United States could only afford around 180 of its F-22s, which eventually cost around $140 million each, including development costs.
Just how much the T-50 could cost is not yet clear, but Mikhail Pogosyan, Sukhoi&#8217;s former chief designer and head of the United Aircraft Corporation, a holding company, says it will be cheaper than the American F-22 but more expensive than the previous generation of fighters.
New stealth fighter to top the bill at Moscow Air Show | Defense | RIA Novosti


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## sancho



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## Firemaster

Nice Video Sancho

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## Hobo1

Doesn't look as stealthy as F22 or J20. But certainly more maneuverable than F22. But how can Russian and IAF comprise on stealth. Should one expect more stealthy prototypes in future.


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## danger007

Hobo1 said:


> Doesn't look as stealthy as F22 or J20. But certainly more maneuverable than F22. But how can Russian and IAF comprise on stealth. Should one expect more stealthy prototypes in future.


 mr falseflag please explain how pak-fa is not stealth.


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## Hobo1

Dude i would suggest you read this thread. No Indian Posters has been convincely able to refute Chinese and Pakistani claim that T50 doesn't look as stealthy as it competitors.


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## DacterSaab

Hobo1 said:


> Dude i would suggest you read this thread. No Indian Posters has been convincely able to refute Chinese and Pakistani claim that T50 *doesn't look* as stealthy as it competitors.


doesn't look is not same as isn't


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## DacterSaab

one thing I don't understand is why every country is emphasizing so much on Stealth cause I don't think any of these fighters are designed to be invisible to an AEW&CS aircraft.


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## Hobo1

^^^^
Stop playing with words even on BR they are discussing this only.
on BR


> The Russian (and Indian side) are both playing their cards close to the chest. It will be interesting to see in coming days the kinds of solutions used for RCS control, avionics details etc.


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## ashokdeiva

Hobo1 said:


> Dude i would suggest you read this thread. No Indian Posters has been convincely able to refute Chinese and Pakistani claim that T50 doesn't look as stealthy as it competitors.


and how come looks suggest if a plane is stealthier or not, its the cross section of a plane , its radar observing surface and the minimal infra-red signature that it leaves behind from its engines that makes for stealth capabilities. 
come on dude don't be fooled by the looks

And as far as the cross section is considered, the PAK FA, is the slimest when compared with the F22 or the J20


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## aimarraul

Sukhoi T-50 makes public debut|World|chinadaily.com.cn

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## Vibs

*'Russian Stealth' 1st public flight: Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 at MAKS airshow*


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## aimarraul



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## sancho

*MAKS 2011 PAK-FA / T-50 DemoFlight: *








*MAKS 2011 PAK-FA sensors:*

T-50: The Fifth-Generation Fighter's Sensors



*Graphic of PAK-FA X-Band radar coverage:*


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## jdme

PAK FA/FGFA is not as stealthy as F-22. J-20 is a Chinese plane. You would never know what capabilities that plane has.


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## DacterSaab

AFAIK only the F-22 was designed to be invisible to AEW&CS but that was supposed to be around 2018 when it reaches Def-com 5.
As for T-50 and J-20 nothing is known.
So could someone plz elaborate if the excessive cost of stealth is justifiable if these planes will not be invisible to AEW&CS systems.


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## jdme

^^Radars go through upgrades. Nothing is "stealthy" forever.


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## amalakas

Does anyone know what that added cone at the tail boom of the T-50-2 is as shown in the show flight in Maks?

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## Black Widow

DacterSaab said:


> AFAIK only the F-22 was designed to be invisible to AEW&CS but that was supposed to be around 2018 when it reaches Def-com 5.
> As for T-50 and J-20 nothing is known.
> So could someone plz elaborate if the excessive cost of stealth is justifiable if these planes will not be invisible to AEW&CS systems.



As per my limited knowledge, AEWCS are used to detect target and relay the information to different places[ Let us consider some scenario..

Scenario1: AWACS detected F22 and send the information to F16/18 or Su3o MKI. As a pilot I know that F22 is 100 km north of me, but this information is not enough to kill it, My aircraft radar should be able to track it, I can not lock using AWACS info.

Scenario2: The AWACS send the location info to SAM station: Sam station knows F22 is there somewhere, but still it cannot track it..

Do you understand why excessive cost of F22 is justified??? 



amalakas said:


> Does anyone know what that added cone at the tail boom of the T-50-2 is as shown in the show flight in Maks?



Same question came to my mind.. May be to distinguish old and new prototype..

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## aakash_2410

Russians sure do know how to make a plane look sexy. 


















You decide for yourself?


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## aimarraul

amalakas said:


> Does anyone know what that added cone at the tail boom of the T-50-2 is as shown in the show flight in Maks?



anti spin parachute,according to russian' saying,the factory testing is close to finished,PAKFA program will soon move to next stage at flight test center,lots of tests will be conducted there ,the prototype 51 might be responsible for flying maneuver


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## tvsram1992

Black Widow said:


> As per my limited knowledge, AEWCS are used to detect target and relay the information to different places[ Let us consider some scenario..
> 
> Scenario1: AWACS detected F22 and send the information to F16/18 or Su3o MKI. As a pilot I know that F22 is 100 km north of me, but this information is not enough to kill it, My aircraft radar should be able to track it, I can not lock using AWACS info.
> 
> Scenario2: The AWACS send the location info to SAM station: Sam station knows F22 is there somewhere, but still it cannot track it..
> 
> Do you understand why excessive cost of F22 is justified???
> 
> 
> 
> Same question came to my mind.. May be to distinguish old and new prototype..


1.Why not an anti radiation missile be launched?
2.AWACS can transfer the coordinates to mki accurately so that the missile launched can be considered as an awacs launched missile . Thats why awacs are there.


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## jdme

tvsram1992 said:


> 1.Why not an anti radiation missile be launched?
> 2.AWACS can transfer the coordinates to mki accurately so that the missile launched can be considered as an awacs launched missile . Thats why awacs are there.




I guess there is this option where AWACs can track the plane and relay the information to a missile in real time. So it would be a AWACS guided missile! Though such missile won't be very reliable.


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## aimarraul

aakash_2410 said:


> Russians sure do know how to make a plane look sexy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You decide for yourself?





What are you suggesting, Sir......

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## aimarraul



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## tvsram1992

jdme said:


> I guess there is this option where AWACs can track the plane and relay the information to a missile in real time. So it would be a AWACS guided missile! Though such missile won't be very reliable.


The reliability depends purely on range and target maneuveribility,jammers and stealth mainly situational awareness


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## jdme

tvsram1992 said:


> The reliability depends purely on range and target maneuveribility,jammers and stealth mainly situational awareness



There is this small delay factor also.


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## sancho

*Livestream from the MAKS 2011:*

MAKS-2011 air show &mdash; RT On air


Not sure if T50 will come later again, but at the moment there is an passover of 8 different Russian helicopters (Mi26,17,28, 38...), very impressive!

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

@ aimarraul

Nice collection! Can you add a topview of all fighters as well?


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## aakash_2410

aimarraul said:


> What are you suggesting, Sir......



I am not suggesting anything sir. I am just saying Russian planes look more sexy in general.


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## aimarraul

can't find the topview of J20

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## SpArK

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------


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## DacterSaab

aakash_2410 said:


> I am not suggesting anything sir. I am just saying Russian planes look more sexy in general.


actually all of em are sexy in their own ways


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## DacterSaab

I must also add that the J-20 seems to be highly influenced by the MiG 1.44 only the intakes are different


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## conworldus

DacterSaab said:


> I must also add that the J-20 seems to be highly influenced by the MiG 1.44 only the intakes are different



Not just the intakes, but also the canard position, wing shape, fuselage, canopy, tail fins, head shape.... are all different. Actually, that's pretty much the whole plane.


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## sancho

Let's not go too much into comparisons and stick to Pak Fa / FGFA news and discussions, the Maks 2011 should give us enough infos.


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## aimarraul




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## Black Widow

@ Stealthiness of PAK-FA: Russia is making this plane not for India but for themself as well. So at any point of time I can't believe that they will make it inferior. China very soon will equipped with J20 (Which in some ppl view look more steathy than F22) To counter chinese threat Russia and India should have something similar to J20.

I trust Russia, They have made many state of art fighter planes, If you guys trust Russian design team then keep faith on them... "many member here claim "PAK-FA doesn't look steathy" I would like to ask them, who are you??? are you magician who can tell the attribute of machine by just looking at it???

If Russian have said, It will be 5th gen figther plane (with stealt as one of parameter),then it will be 5th gen fighter. Discussion over...


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## aimarraul



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## DARKY

Notice the Number


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## DARKY

---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 PM ----------

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## trident2010



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## DARKY

praveen007 said:


> *and there is an other suprise
> .
> A second 5th gen. Engine TYPE-30 .*
> .
> Q - In the difficult years for the Russian aircraft
> industry, aircraft building companies that
> produced military aircraft survived by exports,
> especially in China and India. Today, the Chinese
> have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on
> world markets at dumping prices. Not whether
> as a result we lose our traditional markets of
> combat aircraft?
> A - We dont, because such an aircraft as we
> have, the Chinese have no and will have no in
> visible prospective. They say that they have
> made a 5-th generation plane, but one can say
> anything ... Their best engine was copied
> from our "AL-31F. *And we produce 5-th
> generation engines , and they are in all of their
> parameters of thrust, specific fuel consumption
> correspond to the 5-th generation. I opened the
> secret and say that we actually already
> have two 5-th generation engines. The
> second, which is now conventionally called
> the "Type 30", has already been tested in
> flight on the fighter T-50 ". In the future it
> probably will give the name of "AL-...."
> According to its parameters it a 15-25 percent better than "117 th".
> .
> .
> .
> From same article.*



Type 30 is a larger engine it cannot be accommodated in PAK FA's small airframe.
A similar engine named Al-41 was used on Mig-1.44 prototype which is now being is made smaller with added modifications to increase the thrust levels...... and reducing weight by adding more and more composites........ this new engine would be seen on FG FA version..... however looking at the size of J-20 the original AL-41 would easily fit in....... If I am not wrong the final J-20 engine would be even larger than Al-41.


----------



## aladin123

wealdcn017 said:


> eventually, russia has their own version, not this version, this is only pakistan's football.
> if you really know what's stealth aircraft, this is not stealth aircraft, . j10bs with dsi is much stealth than it.



of course .... Pak-fa is 3rd generation fighter plane and j10b is 7th generation ..... so no comparison


----------



## DARKY



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## DARKY

Guess the PT ##.


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## DARKY

The Public Display of No. 52


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## DARKY

Dog Fight ?......


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## DARKY

No 51 with some ECM or Radar equipment in the tail.


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## DARKY

No. 52

















Look that man having a bicycle ride does he know he is riding next to possibly world's best fighter in future

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## DARKY



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## DARKY



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## danger007

PAK-FA T-50 2nd Test Flight Russian 5th Gen - YouTube


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## DARKY

Feel free to upload the images from

type: any || location: any || airline: any

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## ali.ali

http://russianplanes.net

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## DARKY

Airliners.net | Airplanes - Aviation - Aircraft- Aircraft Photos & News


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## luckyyy

isn't MMRCA going irrelevent infront of FGFA ?


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## tvsram1992

luckyyy said:


> isn't MMRCA going irrelevent infront of FGFA ?


MRCA short listed are semi stealth and 4.5 gen fighters . They are important and no comparison with FGFA .


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> isn't MMRCA going irrelevent infront of FGFA ?



No, because both are meant for different purposes and with nearly half a decade between the induction of MMRCAs and FGFAs.


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## Hobo1

luckyyy said:


> isn't MMRCA going irrelevent infront of FGFA ?



5th generation fighter are expensive to maintain. For atleast 2 decades every airforce would have healthy mix of 4 and 5 gen fighter in its arsenal.


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## Hobo1

5th generation fighter makes emergency landing at MAKS-2011 air show 
5th generation fighter aborts flight at MAKS-2011 air show | Russia | RIA Novosti

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## sancho

Hobo1 said:


> 5th generation fighter makes emergency landing at MAKS-2011 air show
> 5th generation fighter aborts flight at MAKS-2011 air show | Russia | RIA Novosti



Seems to be an engine issue, but it still took off and landed safely.


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## Firemaster




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## tvsram1992

Firemaster said:


>


Its using after after burner .


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## sancho

Was confused by the article, it aborted the take off and directly relased the parachute. Here is the video:

ÐÐµÑÑÐ°ÑÐ½Ð°Ñ ÑÐ¸ÑÑÐ°ÑÐ¸Ñ Ñ ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð»ÐµÑÐ¾Ð¼ ÐÐÐ Ð¤Ð Ð¢-50 Ð½Ð° Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð°ÑÐ°Ð»Ð¾Ð½Ðµ Ð² ÐÑÐºÐ¾Ð²ÑÐºÐ¾Ð¼ | ÐÐ¸Ð´ÐµÐ¾ | ÐÐµÐ½ÑÐ° Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÑÐµÐ¹ "Ð ÐÐ ÐÐ¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÑÐ¸"


Btw, it was not the afterburner, because it don't need/use it for the take off.


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## DARKY

sancho said:


> Was confused by the article, it aborted the take off and directly relased the parachute. Here is the video:
> 
> ÐÐµÑÑÐ°ÑÐ½Ð°Ñ ÑÐ¸ÑÑÐ°ÑÐ¸Ñ Ñ ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð»ÐµÑÐ¾Ð¼ ÐÐÐ Ð¤Ð Ð¢-50 Ð½Ð° Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð°ÑÐ°Ð»Ð¾Ð½Ðµ Ð² ÐÑÐºÐ¾Ð²ÑÐºÐ¾Ð¼ | ÐÐ¸Ð´ÐµÐ¾ | ÐÐµÐ½ÑÐ° Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÑÐµÐ¹ "Ð*ÐÐ ÐÐ¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÑÐ¸"
> 
> 
> Btw, it was not the afterburner, because it don't need/use it for the take off.



Failure of the engine on the right side...... Fuel leakage may be...... It was the second prototype.


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## razgriz19

well its a prototype aircraft, so u can expect things like that....

MAKS 2011 Su-35 and PAKFA T-50 Demo - YouTube


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## aimarraul



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## aimarraul



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## khanz4996

On Sunday 21 August 2011, 21:49 SGT
An engine problem forced Russia to abort the takeoff of its new T-50 stealth plane at an air show outside Moscow on Sunday, officials said.

The pilot "stopped the take-off due to technical defects," a spokeswoman for the MAKS international airshow told AFP, adding that the Sukhoi fighter never even left the ground.

The plane was still undergoing tests so technical glitches were to be expected and the pilot "simply chose not to take risks," the spokeswoman said.

A spokeswoman for the state-run United Aircraft Corporation, the parent company of plane-maker Sukhoi, attributed the problem to a fault with the right engine.

Experts will be closely looking into what caused the glitch, she told AFP, noting there was no plan to take the plane into the air again later Sunday.

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin attended the air show on Wednesday, when the T-50, which is being developed jointly by Russia and India, made its first public flight.

It is one of the two of the sleek fighter jets being showcased and test-flown at the annual show which began Tuesday.

The MAKS air spokeswoman said the planes had flown without a hitch over the previous four days.

Russian officials have said the final version of the T-50 will not be ready until the end of 2016, although the country's air force expects to receive the first jets within three years.


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## TEXAS BATTLESTAR

DARKY said:


> No. 52
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look that man having a bicycle ride does he know he is riding next to possibly world's best fighter in future



Who knows, he could be a the plane's technician following it when it's being pulled by that truck. Anyway, it's quite funny from a humor stand point.

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## sancho

*Was water on the runway the reason for the engine problem? That's at least what the following pics seems to suggest:*


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## sancho

*Same issue, different angle:*

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## DARKY

No 51 images uploaded on 14th August.


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## DARKY

No 52 Images uploaded on 14th August.


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## DARKY

No. 52 uploaded on 18th August.


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## DARKY

No. 51 uploaded on 14th August.


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## DARKY

You can have this as wallpaper people !!










901 BLACK Chased by Sukhoi T-50-2
Moscow - Zhukovsky (Ramenskoye) (UUBW)
Russia, August 14, 2011
More at
Photos: Sukhoi Su-35BM Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net


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## DARKY

52 blue / 052 (cn T-50-2)
Moscow - Zhukovsky (Ramenskoye) (UUBW)
Russia, August 18, 2011


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## DARKY

TEXAS BATTLESTAR said:


> Who knows, he could be a the plane's technician following it when it's being pulled by that truck. Anyway, it's quite funny from a humor stand point.



Or he might be racing with that plane and pickup tow truck.


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## DARKY

No 52

---------- Post added at 06:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 AM ----------

















No 51

---------- Post added at 06:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 AM ----------

















No 51

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## cyphercide

Damn,check that wafer-thin airframe.It looks more like an avant-garde piece of art rather than a predator of the skies!!!


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## DARKY

No 52 making sharp turns and rolls.















---------- Post added at 06:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 AM ----------

No 52 making sharp turns and rolls.


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## DARKY

Images from the aborted flight.






















contd.

---------- Post added at 07:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 AM ----------















Take off aborted.


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## DARKY

Like this Facebook Page, the guy keeps a good record of latest PAK FA images and is also very fast in uploading them.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sukhoi-PAK-FA-T-50/277917788603


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## Water Car Engineer




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## SpArK

---------- Post added at 08:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------


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## SpArK



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## conworldus

The whole jet engine fire thing makes me want to make a joke:

In Soviet Russia, jets fly you!


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## Vibs




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## Firemaster

DARKY said:


> Images from the aborted flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take off aborted.


 
Any Gastric Trouble???

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------

India should buy this Engine to make Long Range supersonic Cruise Missiles


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## air marshal

What happened at 0:12?


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## IndianArmy

air marshal said:


> What happened at 0:12?



A live demo of the aircraft's "Fuel Dumping" Mechanism.


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## SpArK

> Well since we don't have a benchmark to classify an engine for 5th or 4th gen , I did a rough back of the envelop calculation for T:W ratio of Flanker,PAK-FA ,F-22 and F-35 fighter engine
> 
> 1 The AL-31FP ,AL-31F and AL-31FN engine of Su-30MKI, J-10 and Su-34 generates a thrust of 12.5T and weighs 1520 kg which puts it in a T:W ratio of 8.2:1
> 2 The newer AL-31FM1 engine for newer Su-34 generates a thrust of 13.5T and weighs 1520 kg which places it in a T:W ratio of 8.8:1
> 3 The 117S ( AL-41F1A ) engine of Su-35 fame generates a thrust of 14.5 T weighs 1520 kg and has a T:W ratio of 9.5:1
> 4 Coming to PAK-FA 117 engine it weighs 1420 kg and generates a thrust of 15 T with T:W ratio of 10.5:1
> 
> Comparing similar 5th gen engine of American Fighter F-22 and F-35
> 
> 5 The F119 engine of F-22 generates a thrust of 16T and weighs 1772 Kg and has a T:W ratio of 9:1
> 6 The F135 engine of F-35 generate a thrust of 19.5T and weighs 1701 Kg and has a T:W ratio of 11.4 :1
> 
> PAK-FA engine compares favorably with American 5th Gen Engine in T:W class and superior to F-22 engine while the F135 is the best engine in T:W class
> 
> Reference
> 1 source: -31// > -
> 2 source: FEDERAL STATE UNITARY ENTERPRISE «GAS-TURBINE ENGINEERING RESEARCH AND PRODUCTION CENTER «SALUT» | Production | AEROENGINES
> 3 source: 117 > -
> 4 source: Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 5 source: Pratt & Whitney F119 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 6 source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_F135




Courtesy :*Austin* BR FORUM


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## DARKY

No 52
Taken on: 17th August 2011


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## DARKY

No 52
Taken on: 20th August 2011

---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------







No 52
Taken on: 14th August 2011


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## DARKY

---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 AM ----------







Along with flanker. 

And one Amazing Photo.


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## aimarraul

.sukhoi.ru

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## DARKY

SpArK said:


> Well since we don't have a benchmark to classify an engine for 5th or 4th gen , I did a rough back of the envelop calculation for T:W ratio of Flanker,PAK-FA ,F-22 and F-35 fighter engine
> 
> 1 The AL-31FP ,AL-31F and AL-31FN engine of Su-30MKI, J-10 and Su-34 generates a thrust of 12.5T and weighs 1520 kg which puts it in a T:W ratio of 8.2:1
> 2 The newer AL-31FM1 engine for newer Su-34 generates a thrust of 13.5T and weighs 1520 kg which places it in a T:W ratio of 8.8:1
> 3 The 117S ( AL-41F1A ) engine of Su-35 fame generates a thrust of 14.5 T weighs 1520 kg and has a T:W ratio of 9.5:1
> 4 Coming to PAK-FA 117 engine it weighs 1420 kg and generates a thrust of 15 T with T:W ratio of 10.5:1
> 
> Comparing similar 5th gen engine of American Fighter F-22 and F-35
> 
> 5 The F119 engine of F-22 generates a thrust of 16T and weighs 1772 Kg and has a T:W ratio of 9:1
> 6 The F135 engine of F-35 generate a thrust of 19.5T and weighs 1701 Kg and has a T:W ratio of 11.4 :1
> 
> PAK-FA engine compares favorably with American 5th Gen Engine in T:W class and superior to F-22 engine while the F135 is the best engine in T:W class
> 
> Reference
> 1 source: -31// > -
> 2 source: FEDERAL STATE UNITARY ENTERPRISE «GAS-TURBINE ENGINEERING RESEARCH AND PRODUCTION CENTER «SALUT» | Production | AEROENGINES
> 3 source: 117 > -
> 4 source: Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 5 source: Pratt & Whitney F119 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 6 source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_F135
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy :*Austin* BR FORUM
Click to expand...


F-35 engine has higher T/W as it is a single engine plane..... hence higher thrust requirements as opposed to a double engine plane since its weight category aswell as electronic power requirements.

Item 117 could end up with even higher thrust we cannot be sure until it completes its development many new technologies like increased use of composites wold be incorporated to reduce the weight of engine aswell as the bird.

The author of this post has taken the thrust level of 117 as 15T in accordance with the thrust level of the 14.5T of item 117C/S used on Su35BM and the engine used of PT-51 of PAK FA perhaps while the actual engine of PAK FA would have thrust level in excess of 20+ T as mentioned by many journals issued by Sukhoi corporation aswell as defense analysts.

The 5th gen. aspect of engine cannot of determined only by thrust levels If it were so then item 129 or type 30 perhaps were the 1st 5th Gen. turbofans since they had about the same level of thrust as F 119 as beck as 1980s.

The 5th gen. engine would be classified more on the basis of lighter weight, greater strength, Automated digital control, Supercruise properties, higher fuel efficiency, spontaneous throttle changes or at very fast rate, longer life aswell as TVC control, Heat signature reduction...etc.

Russia has already displayed Al-41 with 20T thrust levels which were used of Mig 1.42 prototype but the engine is a bit larger to be fitted on PAK FA and hence requires some tweaking done aswell as reduction in weight with use of composites and incorporating newer technologies to increase thrust levels thanks to the evolution process of Al-31 and item 117C/S.


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## DARKY



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## Lord Of Gondor

@The last photograph......................*wow*!!!


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## DARKY

*NPO Saturn reveals cause of PAK-FA engine flame-out*

*A malfunction in the automatic flight control system was the cause of the Sukhoi PAK-FA's starboard engine flame-out at the MAKS Moscow air show, according to Russian engine maker NPO Saturn.*
Speaking to the Russian media two days after the incident, *NPO Saturn general director Ilya Fedorov acknowledged that the starboard engine "suffered [a] surge".*
A bright flame was seen to erupt from the powerplant when the fighter was halfway through its take-off run at Ramenskoye airfield on 21 August. *According to Fedorov, this was due to a malfunctioning sensor which began feeding "erroneous data" to the airplane's control system.*






*He thanked Sukhoi test pilot Sergei Bogdan for his prompt reaction to the engine malfunction.* "It was a test for the new machine. During flight trials on any brand new aircraft - and this airplane is undergoing flight trials - *malfunctions such as this one are not only possible, but even mandatory."*
Fedorov said: *"The motor did not fail - in fact, it was put by erroneous control input into a wrong mode that caused the surge. This is not an engine failure, but the wrong data input caused by a malfunctioning sensor feeding data to the flight control system.
"After what had happened the motor was checked [and] the malfunctioning sensor was replaced by a good one. Today, there is no issue with this engine."*

NPO Saturn reveals cause of PAK-FA engine flame-out

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## DARKY

In the setting sun.

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## DARKY



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## DARKY

---------- Post added at 04:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------

A meeting on the Runway







---------- Post added at 04:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 AM ----------

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## Army Strong

Ugh, something has to be done about the engines. They show way to much for a 5th Gen Plane.


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## sancho

Army Strong said:


> Ugh, something has to be done about the engines. They show way to much for a 5th Gen Plane.



Because this is only a prototype for early flight tests, with an interim engine. The final versions is expected with 2 or 3D TVC, different nozzle design.


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## DARKY




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## razgriz19

PAK FA/ T-50 in Ace Combat - Assault Horizon

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## DARKY




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## tvsram1992

DARKY said:


>


 sexy no no stealthy
hope the engines are remodeled and it looks same in back view .


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## DARKY

Parked at MAKC


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## mitth

happy and cool...............
nice no no good


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## DARKY

tvsram1992 said:


> sexy no no stealthy
> hope the engines are remodeled and it looks same in back view .



Somehow most of us have developed a wrong and misleading conception that STEALTH = F-22A shaped thing..... However its just one of many such possible shapes..... The designers who designed PAK FA perhaps chose one of such possible shapes which did not look like F-22A Intakes..... these intakes which are separated have evolved though the precious experienced gained from the Su 27 project..... Yes it does sacrifices stealth to a certain extent however that is not of much concern thanks to the super maneuverability it offers.


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## DARKY




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## DARKY

Item 117C.






Possible Item 117


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## sancho

DARKY said:


> Somehow most of us have developed a wrong and misleading conception that STEALTH = F-22A shaped thing.....


That's the point, everybody looks at it and thinks no matter what, a stealth fighter has to be like the F22 and to a certain extend the T50 even does look like it, because it shares the same angled airframe shapings like all steath fighters:














As you can see, no matter if we look at the airframe, or the wings, they have a similar design, for the same purpose. The only point that is really different is, that most stealth fighters uses ducted air intakes, to hide the compressor blades from radar waves, but since the T50 don't has the final engines yet we can't say how the final config will look like. The most likely concept that is rumored is the use of radar blockers, we know from other fighters that this is a concept that works very well as well. The F18SH uses radar blockers, the Saab Gripen uses radar blockers as well and both are said to have a very low RCS as well. Boeing even presented the X32 with radar blockers against the X35 from LM and although it lost the competition, lack of stealth was not the reason, but engine problems of the VTOL version!







So the simple conclusion that T50 is not a stealth fighter, because it's design differs too much from other stealth fighters is simply silly.

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## Dash

sancho said:


> That's the point, everybody looks at it and thinks no matter what, a stealth fighter has to be like the F22 and to a certain extend the T50 even does look like it, because it shares the same angled airframe shapings like all steath fighters:
> So the simple conclusion that T50 is not a stealth fighter, because it's design differs too much from other stealth fighters is simply silly.



Just a thought, the current testing that is going on with T50 has been undertaken with the current engine. When the new engine comes then the under fusalage and intake has to be redesigned to achive more stealth, we even ruled out S-shaped intake ( or it is still there?). However the new engine is abouot better thurst, so Do you think they are actually waiting for the new engine to reshape the intakes?, I dont think so.

I think all that could possibly change is the gap between 2 intakes, which is not a flat one now will change to a flat one. Or may be thwill have the S-Shaped intake in place. Thats max I could forsee, what do you think?


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## typhoon77

> Just a thought, the current testing that is going on with T50 has been undertaken with the current engine. When the new engine comes then the under fusalage and intake has to be redesigned to achive more stealth, we even ruled out S-shaped intake ( or it is still there?). However the new engine is abouot better thurst, so Do you think they are actually waiting for the new engine to reshape the intakes?, I dont think so.
> 
> I think all that could possibly change is the gap between 2 intakes, which is not a flat one now will change to a flat one. Or may be thwill have the S-Shaped intake in place. Thats max I could forsee, what do you think?


 Early drawings and renditions showed that PAK-FA originally was supposed to have S-ducts but were removed when the design was finally frozen. No one knows the actual dimensions of the new engine but they cannot be that different from the current one. Other wise you would have to redesign portions of PAK-FA which would take years. If you redesigned the fuslage like the F-22 you would compromise PAK-FA's maneuverability. The intakes won't be redesigned it would set the program back a couple of years, which Russia cannot afford. 
Here's a rendering of what the back end could look like with the new engines + flat nozzles.


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## typhoon77

Does anyone know anything about this pic? I found it when looking for PAK-FA pictures. At first i thought it was a pic of a proposed F-22/35 s-duct, b/c of the yellow sign, but i don't think its english so it could be Russian. I know the Su-47 had S-ducts maybe its a pic of that?


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## angeldemon_007

*FGFA with LCA*

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## Black Widow

angeldemon_007 said:


> *FGFA with LCA*




I saw it today flying near HAL port.. It was too good to see FGFA with LCA...


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## Dash

typhoon77 said:


> Early drawings and renditions showed that PAK-FA originally was supposed to have S-ducts but were removed when the design was finally frozen. No one knows the actual dimensions of the new engine but they cannot be that different from the current one. Other wise you would have to redesign portions of PAK-FA which would take years. If you redesigned the fuslage like the F-22 you would compromise PAK-FA's maneuverability. The intakes won't be redesigned it would set the program back a couple of years, which Russia cannot afford.
> Here's a rendering of what the back end could look like with the new engines + flat nozzles.



Even I was thinking the same, no major redesign will happen post the induction of new engines, and that if they manage to achive it before IOC, and some said its doubtful. So the first lot of aitcrafts will have the current engine.

I was thinking if they will redesign the under ferusalage but thats where PAKFA gets its lift and manuevarability. SO thats ruled out too. Mostly like what Sancho said, the radar reflective coating/material will be used.

Regarding the engine exhust, it will mostly hexagonal as shown in this picture...
Like the designer menioned earlier, they will compromise some aspect of stealth to give an affordable/maintanable 5th Gen fighter, unlike the F-22 or even the B-2 where they said the serviciability of the craft is not affordable just because of the coatings...So that will make sense.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Just a thought, the current testing that is going on with T50 has been undertaken with the current engine. When the new engine comes then the under fusalage and intake has to be redesigned to achive more stealth, we even ruled out S-shaped intake ( or it is still there?). However the new engine is abouot better thurst, so Do you think they are actually waiting for the new engine to reshape the intakes?, I dont think so.
> 
> I think all that could possibly change is the gap between 2 intakes, which is not a flat one now will change to a flat one. Or may be thwill have the S-Shaped intake in place. Thats max I could forsee, what do you think?



Hi Dash, I can't really say how the final solution will be, but I don't think that the air intake, nor the fuselage have to be re-designed:






As you can see the air intake is already "stealthy" shaped and it's mainly the part that was not painted in the new scheme that might be changed. So the external coverings might get some angled shapings with the final engine instead of the rounded parts it has now, but what's more interesting is the internal changes from the air intake to the engine compressor. An S-duct might not be possible, but the whole air intake/engine arrangement of the T50 is very comlicated anyway!
Most fighters have their engines next to eachother and in a straight line, with the s-duct in front of them towards the air intake (in some cases you also see DSI, but for directing the airflow, not for stealth purposes), so the only part that has some curves is the duct!
The T50 instead has a totally different arrangement, because it has no duct at the moment, but with the gear bays integrated into the air intakes, it has also a kind of DSI, which in this case not only directs the airflow, but also hides a part of the engine face and a similar feature is on the inner intake side as well. But that's not all, the engines aren't located in a normal straight line, but angled which increases the curvy look even more, because the compressor part lower than the nozzle part and the engine is also tilted to the outside. So it's totally different from what we normally see anyway and not without any reasons.
What's also unlcear so far and might be different for Pak Fa / FGFA as well, is the design of the nozzles. I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians prefer a rounded 3D TVN with some shapings like the F35 nozzle, while we might prefer a similar 2D nozzle of the F22, like the one shown in Typhoon77s pic.

---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------




angeldemon_007 said:


> *FGFA with LCA*




Nice, add Rafale to it and it's perfect!

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## Army Strong

DARKY said:


> *Possible production version of Su PAK FA and HAL/Su FGFA*




YESSS!! This is the design i want it to look like! The Engines there perfect.


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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## DARKY




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## angeldemon_007

*Russian Airforce Wants A More Advanced, Modern Engine For PAK-FA*

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## kaykay

*Russian experts upbeat about export prospects for the PAK FA*

Russia promises to manufacture 1,000 PAK FA fighter jets by 2050 as part of a joint Russian-Indian program.


According to the forecasts of Russia&#8217;s Centre for Analysis of World Arms Trade (CAWAT), the Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA) production program will result in the manufacture of at least 1,000 fighter jets by 2050.



Russia and India are the current partners in the PAK FA program. The Russian Air Force is expected to order between 200 and 250 units. High-ranking Indian military commanders have already said that their country anticipates ordering 250 jets.



According to CAWAT experts, potential buyers of the PAK FA&#8217;s export version include Algeria (projected purchasing period: 2025-2030), Argentina (2035-2040), Brazil (2030-2035), Venezuela (2027-2032), Vietnam (2030-2035), Indonesia (2028-2032), Iran (subject to lifting of the arms embargo, 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (2025-2035), China (subject to certain conditions, 2025-2035), Malaysia (2035-2040), and Syria (2025-2030). 



CAWAT estimates that the possible order from these countries will total 274-388 units. 



Exports of the fifth-generation Russian-Indian fighter aircraft could go well beyond the geographical area represented above, in particular thanks to orders from CIS countries. Some Western European countries could also ultimately become purchasers of the PAK FA&#8217;s export version once it is adapted to meet their needs.



According to CAWAT experts, the stated technical specifications of the new Russian fighter match those of the American F-22, today&#8217;s most advanced fighter aircraft whose mission is to ensure air supremacy.



Colonel General Alexander Zelin, commander-in-chief of the Russian Air Force, recently announced that the first batch of fifth-generation fighters will go into commission in 2014&#8211;2015.



Two prototypes are already undergoing flight-testing, and two more PAK FAs are scheduled for testing by the end of 2011, says the head of Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation.


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## sudhir007



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## DARKY

---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 PM ----------

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## DARKY



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## vijayjha

sudhir007 said:


>



which plane it is ?
is it artistic impression?


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## DARKY




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## sancho

conworldus said:


> OMG after all these threads you still cannot recognize that it is the T-50 with 2D nozzle?



 Actually it is an FGFA graphic with twin seat cockpit, different engine coverings and TVC nozzles.


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## conworldus

vijayjha said:


> which plane it is ?
> is it artistic impression?



OMG after all these threads you still cannot recognize that it is the T-50 with 2D nozzle?


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## vijayjha

conworldus said:


> OMG after all these threads you still cannot recognize that it is the T-50 with 2D nozzle?


if u watch the pic carefully the plane in pic has cockpit glass as elliptical while T-50's cockpit glass and the area behind the cockpit the triangular


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## Dash

vijayjha said:


> if u watch the pic carefully the plane in pic has cockpit glass as elliptical while T-50's cockpit glass and the area behind the cockpit the triangular



Thats how the twin seat config for T-50 and FGFA will look like.


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## vijayjha

Dash said:


> Thats how the twin seat config for T-50 and FGFA will look like.


how do u know that
or its just speculation


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## aimarraul



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## DARKY




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## Night_Raven

More powerful engine in the works for HAL FGFA ! 

Lenta.ru:


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## russellpeters

nice pictures!


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## DrSomnath999

*UNDERSIDE OF T-50*


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## DrSomnath999

*ADVANTAGES OF T50'S LERX *




PAK FA Features Movable LERX, this would be more like a Stealthy Canard.


LERX are fillets or strakes, typically roughly triangular in shape, running from the leading edge of the wing root to a point near the cockpit along the fuselage. They tend to be fairly small in span, extending out less than a metre.

On a modern fighter aircraft they provide usable airflow over the wing at high angles of attack. In cruising flight the effect of the LERX is minimal. However: when the angle of attack increases, as in a dog fight, the LERX starts to generate a high-speed vortex that remains attached to the top of the wing. Due to the effects described by Bernoulli's principle the wing therefore has a low pressure zone on top, and continues to generate lift past the normal stall point. The F/A-18 Hornet has especially large examples, as does the Sukhoi Su-27. Early prototypes of the Su-27 crashed due to poorly designed LERX, causing it to freeze at angles of attack above 5 degrees. This has since been overcome. In fact, the LERX help to make possible advanced maneuvers such as the Pugachev's Cobra, the Cobra Turn and the Kulbit.

LERX can be seen pitching downward to create more lift





LERX + 3 AXIS TVC GIVES T50 UNRIVALLED SUPERMANUVERABILITY

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## DrSomnath999

*PAK FA RADAR COMPLEX*


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## DrSomnath999

*SENSOR PORTS OF PAK-FA*


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## DrSomnath999

*PAK FA INLET GEOMETRY*










Air intake ducts are not curved to shield engine compressors as in the Raptor; instead ducts are blocked using composite material. Similarly, the nozzles are blocked to shield turbine blades. The extent of shielding is variable. It is minimized when engine power requirements are high. The blocking concept is illustrated in the video below.


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## DrSomnath999

*PAK FA EVOLUTION*


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## DrSomnath999

*1ST LOOK OF NAVAL VERSION OF PAK-FA*


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## DrSomnath999

*PAK FA WEAPON LOADOUT*


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## SpArK

Somu jii most of it has been posted already..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/119176-pak-fa-essential-information-thread.html


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## DrSomnath999

SpArK said:


> Somu jii most of it has been posted already..
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/119176-pak-fa-essential-information-thread.html


yaar tunne separate thread kyun banaya ,isse mein post kar deta ,bekaar mein mujhe itni mehnat karwaya


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## SpArK

DrSomnath999 said:


> yaar tunne separate thread kyun banaya ,isse mein post kar deta ,bekaar mein mujhe itni mehnat karwaya


 

Its ok.. u continue.. time to brush up lessons..


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## DrSomnath999

*CROSS SECTION OF PAK-FA*


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## SpArK

*IAF to induct 214 variants of fighter aircraft
*

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force (IAF) will induct a total of 214 single and twin-seater variants of the advanced Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed jointly by India and Russia and likely to be inducted by 2017. 

"We are looking for 166 single seater and 48 twin-seater versions of the aircraft," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told reporters here. 

He was asked to comment on the project which will be reviewed by India and Russia during defence minister AK Antony's meeting with his Russian counterpart AE Sardyukov in Moscow. 

He said the contract was in the preliminary contract stage and was expected involve more efforts by two sides when it enters design phase next year. 

"By 2012, negotiations will start for the design phase of the aircraft," he said. 

The IAF Chief said India would also discuss basing air force, Hindustan Aeronautics limited (HAL) and DRDO teams in Russia to monitor the progress of the joint venture project. 

He said by 2017 the first lot of the aircraft were expected to join the IAF and that will depend on the progress of tests and trials of the aircraft. 

Commenting on the international commitments of the IAF, Browne said it will hold aerial wargames with the Royal Air Force of Oman (RAFO) from October 14 at the Jamnagar air base where the two sides will field their Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft. 

Asked about its plans to take part in Red Flag exercise held in the US, Browne said participating in such wargames involves a lot of effort as it was a trans-Atlantic affair. 

He said the IAF will now go there in 2013 only. Red Flag is a US-led NATO exercise and India had taken part in it in 2008.


IAF to induct 214 variants of fighter aircraft - The Times of India

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## Zabaniyah



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## Black Widow

*"We are looking for 166 single seater and 48 twin-seater versions of the aircraft," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told reporters here. 
*

This is the interesting part, India is counting on single seater.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> *"We are looking for 166 single seater and 48 twin-seater versions of the aircraft," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told reporters here.
> *
> 
> This is the interesting part, India is counting on single seater.



I wait till this is confirmed by any other reliable sources, because that is contrary to anything we knew about the FGFA deal before. If we would get nearly 3 times more single seat Pak Fa, why should we pay 10 billions for the development of FGFA and why aren't we already included in the development of Pak Fa then? IAF always stated that they want the twin seat version, just like the MKI and only the media speculated about 50 early Pak Fa, which makes all this very strange. Either the author mixed some things up, or the new air marshal did it and this would be another strange comment, just like that Rafale and EF can't Supercruise.


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## rockstarIN

Or any Doctrine change in cards of IAF?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Or any Doctrine change in cards of IAF?



Doubtful, the only thing that changed was the position of the air chief, but he can't change the policies alone. Not to forget that the former Air Chief and the Defence Minister always said, that IAF wants twin seaters. I think it's just a mistake in the report, because the former Air Chief mentioned the number "214" in an earlier interview as well, but he precisely mentioned "FGFA", not Pak Fa, or single seaters (min 1:14):



> ...214 *FGFA*, 5th gen fighter aircraft that will be coming up around 2017...



IAF undergoing major transformation Air Chief to NDTV


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## DARKY



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## DARKY



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## DARKY



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## DARKY



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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

I really don't have much knowledge about fighter aircraft but from the above pictures I see clearly one thing. Too much smoke coming out from the aircraft engine. Can any guru shed some light on it.

regards
Jailer


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## DARKY

AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer said:


> I really don't have much knowledge about fighter aircraft but from the above pictures I see clearly one thing. Too much smoke coming out from the aircraft engine. Can any guru shed some light on it.
> 
> regards
> Jailer



Those are not engine smoke but dense air formed due to moving the plane at near supersonic speed...... And the blurred thing behind the engine nozzels are heated gas coming out of nozzel in AB mode..... This plane have also been taking off without AB mode.

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## Zabaniyah

Sexy

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## Broccoli

According Paralay T-50 can carry only 4 missiles in belly bays, that's the penalty for having so flat fuselage.


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Your information is wrong. Also Don't you think it depends on weapon that it is carrying ?

Read about the armament from this pic :


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## Broccoli

Who made that?


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## sancho

Broccoli said:


> According Paralay T-50 can carry only 4 missiles in belly bays, that's the penalty for having so flat fuselage.



That's one of the speculations so far, but there is no official statement about it and nobody really knows it yet. However, I highly doubt it, because as you can see in that graphic itself, the AAMs in the front bay are bigger sized missiles with longer range, which means that at least that bay must be deeper to house bigger weapons. The rear bay instead might be aimed on normal AAMs only, R77 or Astra like and since they are smaller, they can be fitted in higher numbers side by side, 3 x AAMs I would say but many graphics shows even 4 of them:

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## sancho

Broccoli said:


> Who made that?



That's from an Russian aerospace magazin, with one of the earliest reports about it, but still before the T50 was revealed, that's why it is not completely credible, but was one of the best estimations in that time.


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## ptldM3

I'll wait for official conformation before I take anything as definitive proof. Even if the pak-fa can hold six A2A weapons that will be adequate enough. You will seldomely if ever see professional Air Forces not fly in formations in hostile air averments, this means a flight of pak-fa's (lets say 6) will have a total of 36 A2A weapons. The A2A missiles the pak-fa will be using will also be new generation missiles with extremely high hit probabilities, and if needed the pak-fa can always switch to guns.


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## 1000VA

The first time on television crew was present at the trials of the newest Russian fighter engine 5th generation PAK FA (promising aviation complex tactical aviation), until recently. a top-secret development. Video:

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## agentperry

hey guys idk its already posted or not but i recently found out that the russians are putting plasma stealth technology in su-47 and may be they put it in FGFA too.
this will be slightly different from the other plasma stealth models as this will use a plasma torch to envelop the fighter at the time of take off and keep it covered through out the flight. 
the working is that the radar waves striking it will lose its property to go back and give radar an incoming signal. its universal and not direction specific means uniform stealth in all directions. this is way superior and complex than f-22 stealth which uses RAM coating and geometry to counter radar threat.

its sure for su47 but on table for fgfa


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## angeldemon_007

> hey guys idk its already posted or not but i recently found out that the russians are putting plasma stealth technology in su-47 and may be they put it in FGFA too.


FGFA and PakFa is just one and the same with some additional indian, israeli and french components. I mean earlier we thought FGFA will be twin seat now i doubt it because majority of 5th gen that IAF is inducting are single seater. May be we are mostly inducting PakFa and a couple squadron of FGFA. There's alot that is unclear here.


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## DMLA

Awesome PAK-FA video shared through vimeo

link: Sukhoi T-50 3D Animation on Vimeo

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## 1000VA

Third PAK-FA Prototype is ready to fly​
*MOSCOW, October 27 - RIA Novosti*. Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Industrial Association (KnAAPO) completes the preparation for flight tests of the third sample was a fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA), told RIA Novosti on Thursday, a source in the military-industrial complex.

"Preparatory work is completed on the third flight model of the fifth generation fighter. He is almost ready to climb into the sky. It remains to work out of an airplane. He takes off, when designers are fully confident in the product "- a spokesman said.

The source did not specify in what time frame is expected to start flight tests of a prototype aircraft, but added that at the present time the company completes the fourth sample PAK FA.

"Compiling a fourth sample is in the final phase. Now comes the testing of design "- added the official.

Source reminded of an incident at MAKS-2011, when, in August the aircraft for technical reasons, stopped off, throwing the drag chute. As the cause of the incident media called "the failure of the power plant automation."

"The incident at the air show had no effect on the course of test aircraft. It was working, technical issue that could occur during testing of any aircraft. The timing for the airline no gaps, all goes as planned, "- said the source.

The Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) must be received by the Air Force in 2016. Flight tests took place only two samples of the PAK FA. President of the United Aircraft Corporation, Mikhail Pogosyan reported that plans to raise in the sky are two fifth-generation fighter to the end of the year.

&#1055;&#1086;&#1076;&#1088;&#1086;&#1073;&#1085;&#1077;&#1077;: Òðåòèé ëåòíûé îáðàçåö Ò-50 ïðàêòè÷åñêè ãîòîâ ïîäíÿòüñÿ â*âîçäóõ  Íîâîñòè Ïîëèòèêè. Íîâîñòè@Mail.ru


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## kaykay

Today T-50 conducted it's 100th test flight.

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## cloud_9

kaykay said:


> Today T-50 conducted it's 100th test flight.


T-50 did it in 21 months while it took 31 months for F-35.........looks like someone was keeping tabs on these figures



> Twenty-one months after first flight at Komsomolsk-on-Amur in Siberia, the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fleet recorded its 100th flight on 3 November.
> 
> For perspective, the Lockheed Martin F-35 programme needed 31 months from the first take-off by the AA-1 test aircraft to pass the 100th flight mark.
> 
> In that 21-month period, the PAK-FA test fleet has already performed a private air show for Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and made its first official public appearance at the MAKS air show near Moscow. The latter event was marred by an engine blow-out on take-off.
> 
> Meanwhile, Russia has been busy on the export front. Rosoboronexport signed a deal with India to develop a new single- and twin-seat variant called FGFA. Sukhoi also offered the PAK-FA to South Korea for the F-XIII contract, but the Russia delegation curiously was absent at the Seoul Air Show last month.
> 
> The Russian Air Force has announced plans to receive the first production aircraft in 2013, and to introduce the PAK-FA into operational service two years later.



Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA passes 100th flight milestone

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## Zabaniyah




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## Andross

Testing new flight suit for fifth-generation fighter pilots | Video | RIA Novosti


The Research & Development Production Enterprise Zvezda (Star) is completing tests of a new suit and life-support system for pilots of the fifth-generation PAK FA T-50 Advanced Tactical Fighter outside Moscow.
Development engineers say they have developed a pilots workstation comprising the suit, a helmet and an ejection seat.
The suit enables the pilot to withstand up to a 9 g force, while executing various maneuvers, to abruptly change course in combat conditions and to retain control of the aircraft.
The upgraded ejection seat includes a miniature computer which can save the pilot even if all other onboard systems fail.
The new helmet is much lighter than previous models and can shield the pilots head from cockpit-canopy fragments in case of accident. It can also be fitted with specialized equipment.


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## SpArK

*Two who flew over the cuckoos NeSt.*







*Gone with the Wind.
*






*The Gladiator,*






*The Dark Knight.*






*Raging Bull
*

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## sancho

SpArK said:


>



Somewhere over the rainbow...

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## gubbi

From *another source*: Enjoy the pics.





And no, its NOT PS'ed!

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## ViXuyen

Guys, any preliminary info on what they would eventually do about those exposed engines?


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## marcos98




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## SpArK

Update on PAK-FA A2A missiles from Russian Airpower book released byYefim Gordon, Dmitriy Komissarov









> Several advanced air to air missile is under development for PAK-FA, *at ranges up to 250 km medium range AAM designated 180-PD and powered by Ramjet engine may be used.*
> 
> A short range of this weapon designated* K-77M derivative of R-77 having a solid fuel motor is used up to ranges of 110-140 km , it has active/passive seeker head allowing missile to home on seeker source*.
> 
> For close range engagement *T-50 may use K-74M2 short range AAM , the missile has a matrix IR seeker head capable of discerning real targets from decoy and having twice the lock on range of R-73 AAM.*
> 
> *The K-74M2 has thrust vectoring control , making it agile enough to nail not only manouverable modern fighter but even incoming AAM*

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## 1000VA

NIIP in the run-up debut​ 






Until the end of this year to start flight tests of an experienced third T-50 fighter, equipped with radar AFAR
*
November 11, 13:00
Text: Yury Ponomarev*

Airborne Radar (SAR) with an active phased antenna array (AFAR), a member of a highly automated multi-functional integrated electronic system (VMIRS) fifth-generation fighter T-50 was created in NIIP them. Vladimir Tikhomirov. Prototypes of radar AFAR can be seen in the exhibition NIIP at MAKS-2009 and MAKS-2011.

*When passed the MAKS-2011, the Institute has two prototype radar AFAR for the T-50 were tested on the bench. The first prototype of the new radar is working off the stand NIIP for more than two years, and the second - about a year. The third prototype radar AFAR held this year, benchmark tests, then after its acceptance tests set at the third prototype T-50-3.*

According to unofficial information, at the present time an aircraft factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (KnAAPO) completes the preparation for flight tests of the third sample promising aviation complex tactical aviation (PAK FA) - Machine T-50-3. It is planned that after a few test flights Machine T-50-3 will be used to begin testing of radar and radar equipment in the avionics of a fighter.

Developers do not hide the difficulties of NIIP, which must be overcome when creating them with AFAR radar, which uses the domestic electronic component base. Development of its production comes from a lot of stress. Especially in the production of transceiver modules.

The composition of VMIRS fighter T-50 is composed of five radar stations. Priority in the development and testing is given to the front of AFAR and its integration with other aircraft systems. I should add that radar AFAR has many new modes that will be used for the first time in domestic practice.

It remains to wait to start testing radar AFAR in the air, which will undoubtedly be the culminating event for the NIIP in 2011

Dossier LH

First flight of fighter T-50-1 was held at the airfield Dzengi in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, January 29, 2010 At the beginning of March 2011 there first flew on the second flight model - Machine T-50-2. At the beginning of November the two cars in total made 100 flights. Aircraft T-50-1 and T-50-2 is not equipped with radar AFAR.

Photo by author

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## nForce

5Star said:


> Guys, any preliminary info on what they would eventually do about those exposed engines?



Still no clue about that.Its a major giveaway.


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## vijayjha



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## 1000VA

*YURI BELY*
&#8220;PAK FA&#8217;s AESA radar development
is right on schedule&#8221;

_The PAK FA future tactical fighter, which prototypes made their debut at the MAKS
2011 air show, will feature, inter alia, a highly automated multifunctional integrated
active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system under development by
the Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design (Tikhomirov-
NIIP). To date, Tikhomirov-NIIP has made several X-band AESA prototypes and
L-band experimental AESA examples and performed a considerable volume of
tests, with the AESA radar soon to be mounted on the fighter. Tikhomirov-NIIP&#8217;s
X-band AESA prototype, L-band example and their transmit/receive (T-R) modules
could be seen at the company&#8217;s booth at MAKS 2011. We spoke with Tikhomirov-
NIIP Director General Yuri Bely about the state of the AESA programme and other
topical matters._


*Mr. Bely, let us start with the main innovative programme of Tikhomirov-NIIP,the AESA radar for the fifth-generation fighter. What is the status of the programme?
What did you achieve?*

PAK FA&#8217;s AESA radar system development is right on schedule approved by the prime contractor for the plane, the Sukhoi company. Under the schedule, two prototypes are being rig-tested,with one more being ready for installation on a PAK FA prototype. This, third, AESA radar prototype will be handed over to Sukhoi, and it will begin to work on board the third flying PAK FA aircraft. Manufacture of more radars is under way, e.g. the fourth set is being assembled to fit another PAK FA prototype and the fifth one&#8217;s manufacture has begun.The first AESA radar has logged two years on our test rig, most of its issues have been ironed out and its software is being refined now. The second AESA complete set has been placed on a test rig earlier this year and will soon be handed over to Sukhoi as part of the PAK FA avionics suite for rig testing. The third example has completed its rig tests and now is ready for mounting on a plane. The fourth set is to be made before year-end.Our institute performs the assembly,adjustment and rig testing of the AESA radars so far, and at the same time, its productionising is underway at the State Ryazan Instrument Plant (GRPZ) that is setting up new manufacturing lines and buying advanced equipment and has erected a special shop to this end. The plant also has taken part in the manufacture of the AESA radar since its early examples had been made; in particular, it has been making the distribution system, waveguide runs, T-R module cases, etc. We have been handing radar part manufacture off to the plant gradually; thus, the plant will productionise the AESA radar in full. We will be able to launch its production as soon as next year.

*What problems do you encounter in AESA development?*

Since the AESA radar is a drastically novel product not only to us at Tikhomirov-NIIP, but to the whole of Russian industry as well, it is no secret that there are problems, mostly due to electronic componentry,specifically due to the productionising of T-R modules under way at the Istok scientific and production association and to ensuring their reliability. Hence, many things have to be done over and reconsidered.As far as characteristics are concerned,we are satisfied now with the T-R modules supplied to us, but their reliability is yet to be enhanced. The cause of the current situation is the slippage of Istok&#8217;s production facilities renovation programme,due to which some work is still done using obsolete equipment with lower precision.The financing is in a stop-and-go manner; hence, Istok is experiencing problems with its production facilities renovation and, therefore, with the reliability of the early T-R modules they made. Nevertheless,I would like to stress again that we have been settling all issues with success no matter what and the programme has been on schedule.The AESA radar development is gradual,given the scale of the job to be done. First,priority is given to the forward-looking AESA and its integration with the electronic countermeasures (ECM), IFF and other avionics. In parallel, other units and systems are being developed, and the radar system is beefed up as they are developed.In the end, we will get a full-fledged multifunctional integrated radio-electronic system of the fifth-generation aircraft.

*While working on the AESA, you do not neglect passive phased-array radars either, do you? *

Certainly, we have developed the unique phased-array radar, the Irbis-E, with an airborne target acquisition range of 400 km. Three prototypes of the radar have been undergoing their flight trials on two Su-35 prototypes and a Su-30MK2 flying testbed for several years now. This year, the first production Su-35S fighter built by KnAAPO Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association under the Russian Defence Ministry-awarded contract has entered its trials. It carries a full production-standard Irbis set made by GRPZ plant at its production line.Tikhomirov-NIIP staff has been proactive in supporting the radar&#8217;s flight tests, its productionising by GRPZ and settling all issues cropping up in the process. Mention should be made that the radar has a good prospect not only on board the Su-35. We have received inquiries as to the feasibility of using Irbis-E derivatives on board ships and as part of ground-based radar systems.We have not neglected the Irbis&#8217;s predecessor, the Bars phased-array radar, which is in mass production and exported extensively as part of the Su-30MKI fighters and its versions to India, Malaysia and Algeria. As is known, the Russian Defence Ministry, too, has recently decided to buy a batch of aircraft like that, designated as Su-30SM, in the near future. We have got a contract with the Sukhoi company for development of a Bars version to fit these fighters. We also are taking part in the programme on upgrade of the Indian Air Force Su-30MKIs. Provision has been made for enhancing the performance of the Bars radar and its current phased array and, possibly, fitting the radar with an AESA further down the road. However, we believe that such an upgrade of the Bars should be conditioned on the programme for development of an AESA radar for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being co-developed by Russia and India, so that our experience in developing the AESA can be used in subsequent upgrade of in-service Su-30MKI fighters. 

*Do you continue to upgrade other airborne radars you developed? *

We certainly do. We are further honing our first phased-array radar, the Zaslon, used on the MiG-31 interceptor. The upgraded MiG-31BM has kicked off the second phase of its official trials recently. Advanced operating modes are being implemented into its Zaslon radar, to which new long- and medium-range missiles are being adapted as well. The MiG-31&#8217;s tactical capabilities will grow by far owing to the ongoing upgrade. In addition, Su-27SM(3) fighters have been fielded with Russian Air Force combat units this year. We have upgraded their N001 fire control radar again, with advanced operating modes introduced and modified medium-range missile application ensured. The work is going on.

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## ViXuyen

SpArK said:


> Update on PAK-FA A2A missiles from Russian Airpower book released byYefim Gordon, Dmitriy Komissarov


why does stealth aircraft like PAK-FA still needs to carry a2a missile longer than 100 km? I think below 70km is more than enough.


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## Birbal

5Star said:


> why does stealth aircraft like PAK-FA still needs to carry a2a missile longer than 100 km? I think below 70km is more than enough.



It's very useful against AWACS, transport aircraft, and other slow moving targets at extreme ranges.


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## rockstarIN

5Star said:


> why does stealth aircraft like PAK-FA still needs to carry a2a missile longer than 100 km? I think below 70km is more than enough.



If you can sure can down the enemy as away from 100km, why not go ahead to 70km and shoot?


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## conworldus

5Star said:


> why does stealth aircraft like PAK-FA still needs to carry a2a missile longer than 100 km? I think below 70km is more than enough.



Well the PAK-FA is not going to be nearly as stealthy as the F-22 with estimated 0.5m2 RCS. Advanced AESA radar can probably detect it at around 70km. I guess that's why it is going to need super long range AA missiles against 3rd/4th gen fighters with AESA radars (F-16?). The downside is that the long range AA missiles have lower hit probabilities.


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## Devianz

5Star said:


> Guys, any preliminary info on what they would eventually do about those exposed engines?


 
Radar blockers will be used, the after section will most probably be covered like in Su-34 and not exposed like in Su-27/30/35 once the final engine and flat nozzles are ready.


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## Birbal

conworldus said:


> Well the PAK-FA is not going to be nearly as stealthy as the F-22 *with estimated 0.5m2 RCS*. Advanced AESA radar can probably detect it at around 70km. I guess that's why it is going to need super long range AA missiles against 3rd/4th gen fighters with AESA radars (F-16?). The downside is that the long range AA missiles have lower hit probabilities.



That's ridiculous. The Su-35 has RCS of around 1m^2, so a good estimate of the PAK FA RCS would be 0.1m^2 or less.


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## conworldus

Birbal said:


> That's ridiculous. The Su-35 has RCS of around 1m^2, so a good estimate of the PAK FA RCS would be 0.1m^2 or less.



The 0.5m2 estimate was disclosed by a Indian military general if I recall correctly.


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## Devianz

conworldus said:


> The 0.5m2 estimate was disclosed by a Indian military general if I recall correctly.



IIRC the figure was given by the Russians themselves. But they also quote RCS of the Raptor to be between 0.3-0.4 m^2. IMHO, the 0.5 figure stated doesn't prove anything they seem to calculate RCS differently than the west.

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## Birbal

Devianz said:


> IIRC the figure was given by the Russians themselves. But they also quote RCS of the Raptor to be between 0.3-0.4 m^2. IMHO, the 0.5 figure stated doesn't prove anything they seem to calculate RCS differently than the west.



Yeah that's probably cause they look at all aspect RCS and don't consider just X-band RCS.


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## angeldemon_007

*Third PAK-FA prototype breaks cover*

Russian-language spotter pages are reporting the first sighting of the third Sukhoi PAK-FA prototype at the Siberian flight test centre in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. As soon as pictures become available, we will post them. 

The T-50-3 prototype is reportedly scheduled for first flight by the end of 2011. It follows the maiden of sorties of T-50-2 in February and T-50-1 in January 2010. 

The third prototype is understood to carry the PAK-FA's active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. T-50-2 is an avionics and mission systems test aircraft, and T-50-1 is dedicated to flight sciences testing. 

Sukhoi has already completed more than 100 flights of the PAK-FA prototypes in less than 22 months of flight testing, including a chequered appearance at Moscow's MAKS air show in August where T-50-2 had an engine blow-out on take-off. 

Third PAK-FA prototype breaks cover - The DEW Line

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## Jason bourne

GReat News ...


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## ViXuyen

At what nth protoype can we expect to see the PAK-FA with a stealthy engine and exhaust nozzle?

I think the PAK-FA has gone pretty well, its first flight was in beginning of 2010 and its 3rd prototype is just two years after that. I would expect it to go live in 2015 or 2016.


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## sancho

5Star said:


> At what nth protoype can we expect to see the PAK-FA with a stealthy engine and exhaust nozzle?
> 
> I think the PAK-FA has gone pretty well, its first flight was in beginning of 2010 and its 3rd prototype is just two years after that. I would expect it to go live in 2015 or 2016.



Depends on if Russia wants something like that. So far it seems they will take the Su 35BM engines and main avionics, to keep their timeline of 2015/16 for induction. The new AL 41 engine on the other side is just offered to India for a co-development (co-funding) and that engine might come with more features.
Btw, there are already more than 3 prototypes, but not all of them are for flight testing.

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## SpArK

*The third PAK FA prototype has joined the flight test program
*






Russian Aviaton » Tuesday November 22, 2011 16:18 MSK


The first flight of the third PAK FA prototype has been performed today at Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association named after Y.A. Gagarin (KnAAPO), based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur , Sukhoi Company reports. AEX.ru

The jet was piloted by the honored test-pilot of Russian Federation, Hero of Russia, Sergey Bogdan. The fighter&#8217;s flight lasted more than one hour and then it has landed at the runway of enterprise&#8217;s airfield. The flight has been performed successfully in full accordance with flight assignment. The stability testing has been performed during the flight and the work of powerplant has been evaluated. The jet has performed well on all the stages of flight. The pilot has underlined the reliable work of all the systems and equipment.

The first flight of PAK FA has been performed on January 29th 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. The second prototype has performed its maiden flight in early March 2011. The work on ground and flight testing is in progress. The first public demonstration of the fighter has taken place in Zhukovsky on August 17th 2011 at MAKS-2011 airshow. More than 100 flights have already been performed in the network of flight test program.

PAK FA program assumes creation, serialization and passing into service the fifth-generation fighter. It will help increase the combat potential of Russian air forces; it will help aircraft industry and other related industries reach a new production and technical level and will give impulse to development of school of sciences, provide a stable workload for enterprises taking part in the development and production of the jet. This top-priority program of Sukhoi will contribute to development and implementation of new materials, element base and hi-end technologies with high innovative potential for aircraft industry and the country&#8217;s economy, for development of new projects of consistent next-generation aviation systems.

&#8220;As compared to the fighters of previous generations, PAK FA has some unique features combining functions of strike aircraft and fighter. Fifth-generation fighter is equipped with new avionics with an integrated function of &#8220;electronic pilot&#8221; and advanced radar with phased antenna array. It significantly decreases the load on the pilot allowing him to concentrate on performance of tactical objectives. The airborne equipment of the new aircraft enables real-time data exchange with ground systems and other aircraft. Implementation of composites and innovative technologies, aircraft aerodynamic configuration, visibility mitigation measures for the engine provide the outstanding low level of radar, optical and infra-red visibility. It increases the combat efficiency of the fighter in any weather and lighting conditions&#8221;, - the company noted.

The third PAK FA prototype has joined the flight test program - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

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## Jason bourne

good pic ..... cant wait to see in indian color


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## SpArK

*First flight of Sukhoi T-50-3*

Video showing first flight of the Sukhoi T-50-3 -- the third prototype to emerge under the PAK-FA programme. Note the absence of a pitot tube on the nose, a first in the PAK-FA programme so far.


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## lepziboy

@Spark:Bro is that the only change that is done to the third prototype?how about the engine blades any improvement on that?


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## SpArK

lepziboy said:


> @Spark:Bro is that the only change that is done to the third prototype?how about the engine blades any improvement on that?



Rumors of AESA in 3 rd P is there.

T-50-2 is an avionics and mission systems test aircraft, and T-50-1 is dedicated to flight sciences testing

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## SpArK



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## sancho

Jason bourne said:


> good pic ..... cant wait to see in indian color



I would be happy to see at least a model or prototype of FGFA now, still nothing official yet.

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## SEAL

sancho said:


> I would be happy to see at least a model or prototype of FGFA now, still nothing official yet.



Its official FGFA Image.


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## sancho

fox said:


> Its official FGFA Image.



As mentioned in the thread, that's just a pic that HAL took for their website from older media reports. First released in an Russian article in 2009 if I'm not wrong.

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## DMLA

T-50-3 first flight press release with pictures.....

Knaapo release

sample pics:




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## Lyrical Mockery

a month old article, but still a nice read :

Chinese experts explain why India and Russia jointly develop FGFA | Russia & India Report


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## marcos98

EFFIN WIN!!!!!!!111





From sivisoko onT-50 novi ruski lovac


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> I would be happy to see at least a model or prototype of FGFA now, still nothing official yet.


 
Is the fgfa all that important now?? It has been confirmed that of the 214 - 166 will be single seater pak fa ( most probably all changes will be internal to avionics ) whose 3 prototypes are already flying....


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## Water Car Engineer

marcos98 said:


> EFFIN WIN!!!!!!!111
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From sivisoko onT-50 novi ruski lovac




Holy cr*p is that for real?!


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## Roybot

Liquid said:


> Holy cr*p is that for real?!



Its shopped. 






2nd prototype.

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## sudhir007

check the link video 
Testing new flight suit for fifth-generation fighter pilots | Video | RIA Novosti

The Research & Development Production Enterprise Zvezda (Star) is completing tests of a new suit and life-support system for pilots of the fifth-generation PAK FA T-50 Advanced Tactical Fighter outside Moscow.
Development engineers say they have developed a pilot&#8217;s workstation comprising the suit, a helmet and an ejection seat.
The suit enables the pilot to withstand up to a 9 g force, while executing various maneuvers, to abruptly change course in combat conditions and to retain control of the aircraft.
The upgraded ejection seat includes a miniature computer which can save the pilot even if all other onboard systems fail.
The new helmet is much lighter than previous models and can shield the pilot&#8217;s head from cockpit-canopy fragments in case of accident. It can also be fitted with specialized equipment.

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## soul hacker

Animated


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## ptldM3

marcos98 said:


> EFFIN WIN!!!!!!!111
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From sivisoko onT-50 novi ruski lovac



I'm the original creator of that picture, it did it upon request from a friend and posted the picture on Pakistan Defence back in March. I'm suprised by all the attention the picture has received.

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## tvsram1992

ptldM3 said:


> I'm the original creator of that picture, it did it upon request from a friend and posted the picture on Pakistan Defence back in March. I'm suprised by all the attention the picture has received.


hey buddy pls make a pic of PAKFA in f22 skin and pm me


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## DrSomnath999

ptldM3 said:


> I'm the original creator of that picture, it did it upon request from a friend and posted the picture on Pakistan Defence back in March. I'm suprised by all the attention the picture has received.


execellent job man
*&#1042;&#1099; &#1082;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;!*


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## lepziboy



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## lepziboy

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------

ÊÍÀÀÏÎ*- Ãàëåðåÿ - Ñàìîëåòû - Áîåâûå - Ò-50 - Ò-50-3


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## Hulk

lepziboy said:


> ---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------
> 
> ÊÍÀÀÏÎ*- Ãàëåðåÿ - Ñàìîëåòû - Áîåâûå - Ò-50 - Ò-50-3



Nice picture buddy.

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## sancho

lepziboy said:


>



Very interesting! New nose and the new IRST that was presented at the MAKS 2011 are already integrated, wonder it the AESA radar was too?


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## sudhir007

http://www.afa.org/edop/2010/PAK-FA'sFirstFlighton29JAN10REV5.pdf


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## sancho

More pics:

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## DrSomnath999



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## Firemaster

DrSomnath999 said:


>


I was also amusing that why its nose was looking a little curved from bottom


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## Che Guevara

*new prototype with RAM coatings*

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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Its a paintjob already posted 3-4 times but yeah its new prototype


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## DANGER-ZONE

beautiful bird indeed. really beautiful just like MKI

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## houshanghai

F22 VS T50


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## kingofkings

Che Guevara said:


> *new prototype with RAM coatings*



No buddy it's a photoshop'd image ....


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## BLEND

Che Guevara said:


> *new prototype with RAM coatings*



This will help http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/118201-su-pak-fa-fgfa-38.html#post2359841


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## SpArK



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## rockstarIN

Cant wait to see it in Indian colours


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Cant wait to see it in Indian colours



I prefer to see FGFA prototypes flying, no matter which color they have.


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## amalakas

With the third prototype flying now I am glad to see small adjustments made to the plane. 

I would like to point out a few things I still don't like and with the 3rd prototype in life now, begin to bag me a bit. 

1st. Although the framed canopy makes no difference to LO, and I have read ITAE's paper on how they can make it LO, what I do mind is the way it limits the pilots visibility. 
I have sat in the cockpit of an F-16 and the field of view is remarkable. 
I would guess a fighter pilot would opt for the greatest field of view he could get. 

2nd. There are still antennas on the front section of the plane. Are they there to stay or still instrumentation. The seem like they are there to stay. 

3rd (and by far the most worrying in my eyes) The weapons bays have a very prominent gap between the two doors are the doors mock doors.. because that gap is a bit ... not good. 

4th. i would like to know if the rear lower end of the nacelles would be shaped or not. I am more interested to see why if not.. 

any thoughts ?


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## angeldemon_007

> 2nd. There are still antennas on the front section of the plane. Are they there to stay or still instrumentation. The seem like they are there to stay.


Even if they stay how will it effect the capability of the aircraft ?



> 3rd (and by far the most worrying in my eyes) The weapons bays have a very prominent gap between the two doors are the doors mock doors.. because that gap is a bit ... not good.


So what if there's a gap ? It has no effect on the capability of T50. T50 can carry more weapons than F22 and F35. Yeah its true this gives the room to increase the weapon payload.

I am happy you didn't mentioned 2d TVC nozzle. I don't get it, why people think 2d is necessary for a stealth aircraft. Russians have actually selected 3d tvc nozzle and rejected 2d nozzle.

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## amalakas

angeldemon_007 said:


> Even if they stay how will it effect the capability of the aircraft ?
> 
> 
> So what if there's a gap ? It has no effect on the capability of T50. T50 can carry more weapons than F22 and F35. Yeah its true this gives the room to increase the weapon payload.
> 
> I am happy you didn't mentioned 2d TVC nozzle. I don't get it, why people think 2d is necessary for a stealth aircraft. Russians have actually selected 3d tvc nozzle and rejected 2d nozzle.


 
both of the points you mentioned affect the LO of the plane.

also currently we don't know if it is carrying more weapons, last i heard it was 2+2 mr an 2 sr


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## ptldM3

amalakas said:


> 2nd. There are still antennas on the front section of the plane. Are they there to stay or still instrumentation. The seem like they are there to stay.



Sensors are for testing, each prototype has seen a gradual reduction in antennas.










amalakas said:


> 4th. i would like to know if the rear lower end of the nacelles would be shaped or not. I am more interested to see why if not..
> 
> any thoughts ?




It's just speculation but by looking at the aircraft they incorporated sawtoothing in every area except the rear landing gear bays which leads me to beleive that the current configuration is temporary. And i say this not just because of the lack of sawtoothing in the landing gear bays but because the final engine configuration including nozzles is yet to be finalized.


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## amalakas

ptldM3 said:


> Sensors are for testing, each prototype has seen a gradual reduction in antennas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just speculation but by looking at the aircraft they incorporated sawtoothing in every area except the rear landing gear bays which leads me to beleive that the current configuration is temporary. And i say this not just because of the lack of sawtoothing in the landing gear bays but because the final engine configuration including nozzles is yet to be finalized.




ptldM3, have you any thoughts on the gap in the weapons bays?


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## angeldemon_007

> both of the points you mentioned affect the LO of the plane.


No it does not...



> also currently we don't know if it is carrying more weapons, last i heard it was 2+2 mr an 2 sr


Well then you don't know the basic of T50. T50 is banking on this point that stealth aircrafts like F22 and F35 will finish their weapons soon while t50 will have advantage over them at that time.


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## amalakas

angeldemon_007 said:


> No it does not...
> 
> 
> Well then you don't know the basic of T50. T50 is banking on this point that stealth aircrafts like F22 and F35 will finish their weapons soon while t50 will have advantage over them at that time.



I think I do and also from your comments I think you don't.
If you are in any doubt, search my posts to see how much I do know and how much I don't.

you also seem to be misinformed.

and the only reason i start something like this is because ptldM3 has access to russian sources whereas I don't since I don't speak russian nor am I in russia.


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## ptldM3

amalakas said:


> ptldM3, have you any thoughts on the gap in the weapons bays?



I would need a close up to see what it really is. If it is a gap it is odd considering all of the other access panels, bays, ect are uniform and tight. If i would to take a guess i would say that the weapons bay are possibly not fully closed or saging. None of the pak-fa prototypes have undergone weapons testing so most likely the bays are not fully functional yet. Once fully functinal weapons bays appear i would amagin that the weapons bays would close just as plush as all the other bays.

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## sudhir007



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## sancho

amalakas said:


> The weapons bays have a very prominent gap between the two doors are the doors mock doors.. because that gap is a bit



True, as you can see on the following pic:







The question however is, are these the final weapon bays or also just stop gaps for the test flights? The reason why I say this is, while we see the 3rd prototype flying, we didn't see or heared anything about testing any of the weapon bays during the flights (but someone correct me if I missed it). Imo that's strange, since Sukhoi is testing this on the Su 47 for a long time:














It wouldn't be a very difficult for them to test it on the T50 as well and as you can see on the first pic, it's also no problem for them to design a weapon bay without such a gap.


Wrt the size of the T50 bays I stated a few things before:






The new R77 missiles which will be developed for T50, will have folding rear control fins, which reduces the width of course. As you can see in the following pic, even the bay of the MKI could house 2 of these AAMs besides each other, while the T50 bay should be wider isn't it?

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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> The question however is, are these the final weapon bays or also just stop gaps for the test flights? The reason why I say this is, while we see the 3rd prototype flying, we didn't see or heared anything about testing any of the weapon bays during the flights (but someone correct me if I missed it). Imo that's strange, since Sukhoi is testing this on the Su 47 for a long time:




There is nothing concrete but there is nothing suggesting that they are not the real weapons bays, even though they probably will not be used on the first two prototypes. As you are aware the third prototype is equipped with radar and weapons/weapons bays will be tested. As with everything else with the pak-fa the testing will be conservative, they will probably test the radar and make adjustments if needed, if everything is fine than they will move on to the weapons testing. 

The pak-fa will under 2000 test flight before production so I do not expect everything to be done in such a short time span. Furthermore, with all the expected prototypes and so many test flight of course there will be changes probably not too drastic but nevertheless there should at least be subtle changes as we have seen with the previous prototypes.

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## trident2010

*FGFA  what sort of plane is it?*








Hindustan Aeronautics plane maker has posted on its website some of the specifications of the FGFA model, thus raising the curtain over the future jet fighter created by Russian and Indian developers on the basis of Russias PAK FA.

While some of the disclosed figures are quite predictable, some others are truly puzzling, if we believe everything that the Indian developer has to say. However, many of the basic parameters of the future jet fighter still remain undisclosed.

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) is an Indian fighter being developed by Indias Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Russias Sukhoi based on the T-50 aircraft (PAK FA). Russia and India signed a contract for the creation of the concept and technical design on 21 December 2010, the amount of transaction being $295 million. It was planned that front-end engineering would take 18 months. During this phase, Sukhoi will account for 80% of the total volume of work. The Russian side has not yet disclosed the T-50 characteristics.

According to the description available on the Hindustan Aeronautics website, the proposed FGFA will have air combat superiority and media exchange systems to communicate with similar aircraft in conditions of poor communication support. They do not specify what poor communication stands for. HAL must be referring to jamming. It is also noted that the FGFA has a network centric warfare capability by getting access to the Indian Defence Ministrys database. (In mid-October 2010, India launched AFNET digital information grid, aiming at centralising the command of the countrys Air Force. AFNET will later be combined with information grids of the Defence Ministry, the Navy and the Army. As a result of this centralisation effort, the Indian Armed Forces will coordinate their activities via a single data management and exchange system).








Other characteristics mentioned by the Indian developer include increased stealth, cruise at speeds well above Mach, and supersonic manoeuvring capability. The last feature is not specified, because manoeuvring can mean both aerobatic manoeuvres, which envisage a colossal impact of G forces on the pilot at supersonic speeds, and regular changes in the height and direction.

The length of the Indian fighter is 22.6 meters, its height is 5.9 meters, and its maximum takeoff weight is 34 metric tons. With a maximum speed of 2 Mach (2,300 kilometres per hour), the jet fighter will have a range of 3,880 kilometres.

The FGFA will feature two jet engines and have thrust vector control, with jet nozzle angle of +/-150. HAL does not mention in the description whether the FGFA will get all-aspect thrust vectoring, but it seems it will, because the Russian T-50 (PAK FA) will have all-aspect thrust-vector control.

According to HAL, each engine will reach a thrust of 1,400 kgf (13.7 kN). This one is a puzzling characteristic, because this thrust will clearly be insufficient for a heavy fighter. To compare: Indian heavy fighter Su-30MKI is powered by two Al-31FP turbofans, each producing 7,670 kgf dry and 12,500 kgf in afterburner.

The Indian specialists must have lost a zero somewhere  a thrust of 14,000 kgf looks suitable for the FGFA.

In September 2011, Indian Air Force Chief Norman Anil Kumar Browne said the military had chosen the engine that would be installed in the FGFA. The power plant will be introduced in two phases, following the T-50 patters. The Al-41F1C will likely become the engine of the first stage, whereas the one selected by the Indian Air Force will be used for the second stage. There is no information about the latter yet, except for the fact that it will produce more power than that to be installed in the T-50.

According to the description on the HAL website, the FGFA will have a maximum internal weapon load of 2.25 tons and external weapon load of 5.75 tons. The FGFA weapon load will therefore total 8 tons. The fighter is still at the design stage, so the reported figures are not final and will probably be adjusted after the prototype is created. The FGFA is expected to make its first flight in 2015 and go into service in India in 2017 or 2018.

In early October 2011, Browne said the Indian Air Force would procure 214 FGFA planes in addition to the 272 Su-30MKI that it already has. Previously, Indian Defence Minister Arackaparambil Kurien Antony said some $25-30 billion would be spent on new fighters. Browne added that 166 single-seat FGFA models would be purchased, while the remaining 48 fighters would be two-seaters, although the original plan was to buy only two-seaters.

Soon after India announced its plans to buy new jet fighters, some experts said single-seat FGFA would likely be different from the T-50 in the way that the Su-30MKI is different from the Su-30 of the Russian Air Force. In February 2011, HAL Finance Director D. Shivamurti said the FGFA development project would cost a total of $6 billion, and the Indian side would account for 35%-40% of the work. Specifically, Indian specialists will be developing an onboard computer, navigation system, data displays in the cockpit and the planes self-protection system.

The two-seater will have more serious distinctions than just a larger cockpit. HAL Chairman of the Board Ashok Baweja said that the two-seater would have wings, fins, rudders and electronics different from those of the T-50. Also, the design of the Indian fighter must account for the use of Indian-made weapons, including Astra air-to-air missiles or Nirbhay cruise missiles.


FGFA

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## tvsram1992

Hope the first batch of FGFA goes for SFC rather than MRCA .


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## sancho

@ ptldM3

Do you have any infos about the FGFA development from Russian media? It bothers me, that there is still not even a windtunnel model that was presented, be it on Aero India or Maks 2011.


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## koushik

yah,i heard the same
...


----------



## ptldM3

sancho said:


> @ ptldM3
> 
> Do you have any infos about the FGFA development from Russian media? It bothers me, that there is still not even a windtunnel model that was presented, be it on Aero India or Maks 2011.



I havent heard anything . It would be optimistic to think that they would release a wind tunnel model so early or even at all, but I could be wrong.

Hopefully when we see the FGFA it will be painted in some totally cool charcoal grey, while parked in a clean well lit hanger with giant Russian and Indian flags draped in the background. And hopefully Justin Bieber will climb out of the canopy and light up the hanger with his heavenly vocals.

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## GURU DUTT

ptldM3 said:


> I haven&#8217;t heard anything . It would be optimistic to think that they would release a wind tunnel model so early or even at all, but I could be wrong.
> 
> Hopefully when we see the FGFA it will be painted in some totally cool charcoal grey, while parked in a clean well lit hanger with giant Russian and Indian flags draped in the background. And hopefully *Justin Bieber will climb out of the canopy and light up the hanger with his heavenly vocals*.




i think you really like that girl??????????


----------



## ptltejas

GURU DUTT said:


> i think you really like that girl??????????


 
like decease volour blind a new decease Gender Blind raised now a days.

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## DANGER-ZONE

is there any cockpit view of PAK-FA ?


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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> I haven&#8217;t heard anything . It would be optimistic to think that they would release a wind tunnel model so early or even at all, but I could be wrong.
> 
> Hopefully when we see the FGFA it will be painted in some totally cool charcoal grey, while parked in a clean well lit hanger with giant Russian and Indian flags draped in the background. And hopefully Justin Bieber will climb out of the canopy and light up the hanger with his heavenly vocals.



Maybe not a windtunnel model, but anything that shows us how it will look like, or what the differences might be. LOL, maybe I'm too old for Justin Bieber, but I wouldn't mind Priyanka Chopra climbing out of the cockpit and presenting Indias new toy

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## lepziboy

whats this concept?

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## angeldemon_007

Where did you find it ? Please post the source...


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## lepziboy

Actually its facebook the pak fa page i was wondering if this is true


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## sancho

lepziboy said:


> whats this concept?



It's a rumor about a new kind of rotating radar blocker, which will be placed before the engine to divert and absorb radar waves.


----------



## lepziboy

^^oh i see.but based on the pic it looks like the whole duct is moving


----------



## sancho

lepziboy said:


> ^^oh i see.but based on the pic it looks like the whole duct is moving



The radar blocker is meant to be rotating, at least as far as I understood it, but don't take the rest of the graphic seriously anyway, because it's one of the old once and not correct! The gear in that graphic is folded horizontally, like early estimations mentioned, but in reality it is folded vertically into the air intake as you can see here:


----------



## Shaurya

Here is PAK-FA in IAF colours... enjoy sancho bhai, the first 50 planes (I believe) will be single-seated ones (similar to russian airforce) and then some 200 more will be accquired with two seats. The induction will begin in early 2017-early 2018 depending on how the tests and everything go...


----------



## 1000VA

*Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA - official patent analysis | aerospace news | robotpig.net*


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## amalakas

1000VA said:


> *Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA - official patent analysis | aerospace news | robotpig.net*



So according to the patent filing there is curvature in the air ducts. Are the drawings from the patent? They show lower half of the compressor (?) but don't mention blockers. where is someone who speaks russian when you need one!


----------



## ptldM3

amalakas said:


> So according to the patent filing there is curvature in the air ducts. *Are the drawings from the patent? *They show lower half of the compressor (?) but don't mention blockers. where is someone who speaks russian when you need one!



Yes, according to the link they are from KnAAPO/Sukhoi.


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## amalakas

ptldM3 said:


> Yes, according to the link they are from KnAAPO/Sukhoi.



Excellent, I was pretty sure there must be some curvature in the ducts, and the patent indicates that, now the point is how much of the compressor is actually visible. Also the drawings show a flow regulator in the upper part of the duct. 

correct ? 

any thoughts ?


----------



## sancho

amalakas said:


> Excellent, I was pretty sure there must be some curvature in the ducts, and the patent indicates that, now the point is how much of the compressor is actually visible. Also the drawings show a flow regulator in the upper part of the duct.
> 
> correct ?
> 
> any thoughts ?



I think you misunderstood that part:



> *The air intakes are further apart in respect to the vertical and horizontal planes than the engines thus the ducts are curved.* *This curvature hides the compressor and reduces the radar signature of the engine in the forward hemisphere*, a common practice in many recent (or not so recent) designs.



So they are not talking about an actual ducted air intake like an S-duct, but that locating the engines higher than the air intakes and slightly angled will hide parts of the engine blades.

Point 7 on the lower pic:








The only chance for an S-duct might be, locating the engine front upwards at the same hight as the rear side, which would look similar to the YF 23, but I'm expecting radar blockers.

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## amalakas

No i think i got it right 

in the past I have argued with martian2 especially and others that from the position of the top surface nacelles you could see the engines are pointing inwards and slightly into the plane, not downwards and straight into the nacelle. 

my question now is how much of the compressor is visible or not.


----------



## sancho

amalakas said:


> No i think i got it right
> 
> in the past I have argued with martian2 especially and others that from the position of the top surface nacelles you could see the engines are pointing inwards and slightly into the plane, not downwards and straight into the nacelle.
> 
> my question now is how much of the compressor is visible or not.



As mentioned the location of the engine is the key difference, which is higher than the air intake and with the front of the engine indeed positioned downwards. That's why the upper side of the fan blades will be hidden, not because of any ducts:










The blue line marks the base line of the fuselage and the tailsting, while the red marke shows the direction of the engine face. You can see that the rear part of the engine including nozzles is above the tailsting, while the front part is below, but you are right they are inverted too:






It will be difficult to say how much will be visible, maybe half of it maybe less, but the there still must be a radar blocker. However, lets wait and see how the later prototypes will look like.

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## amalakas

sancho said:


> As mentioned the location of the engine is the key difference, which is higher than the air intake and with the front of the engine indeed positioned downwards. That's why the upper side of the fan blades will be hidden, *not because of any ducts:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blue line marks the base line of the fuselage and the tailsting, while the red marke shows the direction of the engine face. You can see that the rear part of the engine including nozzles is above the tailsting, while the front part is below, but you are right they are inverted too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will be difficult to say how much will be visible, maybe half of it maybe less, but the there still must be a radar blocker. However, lets wait and see how the later prototypes will look like.



when i typed ducts , i mean the nacelles themselves, they are air ducts after all.


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## lepziboy



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## lepziboy

^^why do i have a feeling that picture can turn into reality?just a feeling


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## Birbal

lepziboy said:


>



Is that supposed to be the PAK-DA?

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## KRAIT

Nope........many pictures floating around


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## lepziboy

But I think the engines can be covered like that.it kinda looks good on it


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## sancho

Birbal said:


> Is that supposed to be the PAK-DA?



Looks more like a Su 34 successor


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## DrSomnath999

lepziboy said:


> whats this concept?


well it is a concept of engine inlet modification but no official recognition on it .




It uses flexible vanes with a rotating ring at the rear end: in the "stealth regime" it provides extensive blockage, but it clears the airflow when it doesn't matter or you need full speed or power. One challenge would be the structural design, because the last thing you want is a piece of RAM flaking off the moving surface and FODing out your motor.

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## Yeti

Russia will complete development of advanced tactical air-launched missile systems for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter within the next two years, the head of the Tactical Missiles Corporation (KTRV), Boris Obnosov, told RIA Novosti.

The development of Kh-35UE (AS-20 Kayak), Kh-38ME, Kh-58UShKE (AS-11 Kilter), and RVV-MD (AA-11 Archer) class missiles will be completed in 2012-2013, Obnosov said, adding the missiles were currently being tested.

By the time the T-50 fighter enters service with the Russian Air Force in 2014, its missile systems will be fully operational, Obnosov said.

Some of the missiles intended for the fighters  such as Kh-31PD (AS-17 Mod 2) class missiles  have already been tested using Sukhoi Su-34 (Fullback) fourth-generation strike aircraft and put into serial production, he added.

According to KTRV, the Kh-35UE tactical anti-ship missile has a maximum range of 260 kilometers; the supersonic Kh-31PD anti-radiation missile for use against air defense systems, can fly up to 250 kilometers; the Kh-58UShKE missile, designed to destroy pulse radars, can hit targets within 245 kilometers, and the short-range RVV-MD air-to-air missile has a maximum range of 40 kilometers.

The T-50, developed under the PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) program by the Sukhoi OKB, is Russia's first new major warplane designed since the fall of the Soviet Union. The jet made its maiden flight in January 2011 and two prototypes have since been undergoing flight tests.




Russia to Field Air-Launched Missiles for T-50 by 2014 | Defense | RIA Novosti


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## sudhir007

Three T-50 prototypes have performed 120 flights - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

Three T-50 (PAK FA) prototypes have performed more than 120 flights, Lenta.ru reports. It has been declared by president of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Mikhail Pogosyan. According to him, the fourth prototype will join the flight testing in 2012. "We will start the deliveries of pilot batch in 2013. The program is being performed in accordance with the schedule", - Pogosyan noted.

The third prototype of &#1058;-50 has joined the flight test program in late November 2011. The fourth one - &#1058;-50-4, should have joined the flight testing last year. The first two prototypes are being tested at the airfield of Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovsky at the moment. The first jet&#8217;s prototype has been performing flights since January 2010 and the second one &#8211; since March 2011. As expected, the testing of T-50&#8217;s airframe will be completed in 2012.

In accordance with the agreement between Sukhoi Company and Russian Ministry of Defense, the airframer should deliver first 10 T-50s to the Lipetsk combat employment and retraining center, where the testing will be continued. At present, the Ministry of Defense plans to acquire 60 T-50s, aside from jets from the pilot batch. The demand for T-50 jets in the Russian air forces is estimated at 150 ones.

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## lepziboy

^^I hope they do some structural changes to T-50-4


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## Roybot

New TVC design? Could this be for PAk FA? Any Russian speakers here

*Watch from 7:44*

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## sudhir007

Russia to Increase Number of 5G Fighters in Test Flights | idrw.org

The number of Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi T-50 5th generation fighters involved in test flights will be increased to 14 from three by 2015, Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin told RIA Novosti on Monday.

&#8220;There are three fighters already in tests, another three are expected to be tested in the nearest future. The entire number of aircraft planned for test flights is 14,&#8221; Zelin said.

The T-50, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, made its first public appearance at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow on August 17, 2011.

The fighter, which is being developed in partnership with India, made its maiden flight in the Russian Far East in early 2010.

Zelin also said that Russia&#8217;s T-50 outstripped its U.S. and Chinese analogues.

&#8220;After a comparative analysis of the fighter&#8217;s characteristics with the U.S. F-22 Raptor and Chinese J-20 stealth aircraft, we can conclude that PAK FA exceeds the foreign analogues in maximum speed, flight range, maximum takeoff weight and the maximum overload value,&#8221; Zelin added.

Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The country&#8217;s top military officials have said the stealth fighter jet, with a range of up to 5,500 kilomeeters, should enter service with the Air Force in 2015.


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## Jason bourne




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## lepziboy

sudhir007 said:


> Russia to Increase Number of 5G Fighters in Test Flights | idrw.org
> 
> The number of Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi T-50 5th generation fighters involved in test flights will be increased to 14 from three by 2015, Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin told RIA Novosti on Monday.
> 
> &#8220;There are three fighters already in tests, another three are expected to be tested in the nearest future. The entire number of aircraft planned for test flights is 14,&#8221; Zelin said.
> 
> The T-50, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, made its first public appearance at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow on August 17, 2011.
> 
> The fighter, which is being developed in partnership with India, made its maiden flight in the Russian Far East in early 2010.
> 
> Zelin also said that Russia&#8217;s T-50 outstripped its U.S. and Chinese analogues.
> 
> &#8220;After a comparative analysis of the fighter&#8217;s characteristics with the U.S. F-22 Raptor and Chinese J-20 stealth aircraft, we can conclude that PAK FA exceeds the foreign analogues in maximum speed, flight range, maximum takeoff weight and the maximum overload value,&#8221; Zelin added.
> 
> Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The country&#8217;s top military officials have said the stealth fighter jet, with a range of up to 5,500 kilomeeters, should enter service with the Air Force in 2015.



so does that mean that the structural changes would be made to the later models not to the fourth prototype?


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## sudhir007

Russia Must Build Two Variants of 5G Fighter - Rogozin | Defense | RIA Novosti

Russian aircraft manufacturers must develop at least two competitive prototypes of a fifth-generation fighter jet, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Thursday.

&#8220;Two variants of the future fighter jet must be developed to encourage competition,&#8221; Rogozin said at a meeting with Russian lawmakers.

According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the future fighter must possess all technical characteristics of a fifth-generation fighter, including elements of stealth technology, supersonic cruising speed, highly-integrated avionics, electronics and fire-control systems.

The existing T-50 prototype, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, made its maiden flight in Russia&#8217;s Far East in January 2010 and made its first public appearance at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow on August 17, 2011.

There are currently three fifth-generation T-50 fighters in tests, and a total number of 14 aircraft is planned for test flights by 2015.

The T-50 is expected to enter service in 2016 and gradually replace MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker fighter jets in the Russian Air Force.


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## sudhir007

4th T-50 fighter jet to go on test flight: Voice of Russia

The fourth of Russia's state-of-the-art fifth-generation Sukhoi T-50 fighter jets will make its test flight this year, Head of Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Mikhail Pogosyan announced on Wednesday.

The third PAK FA T-50 jet has already performed over 120 test flights.

Deliveries of the initial batch of T-50 aircrafts will kick off in 2013. &#8220;Everything is going according to plan,&#8221; Mr. Pogosyan assured the press-conference.

A number of Latin American counties, as well as Indonesia, Vietnam and India have been interested in purchasing UAC&#8217;s planes, he said. In 2011, the Russian aircraft giant is planning to sell around 50-100 Sukhoi Superjets.

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## DrSomnath999

*3D pics of PAKFA*








& 
*YIPEEE PICS of pakfa*

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## Black Widow

lepziboy said:


> ^^I hope they do some structural changes to T-50-4




Why do you hope so??? Let russian do what they are good at..


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## Birbal

Roybot said:


> New TVC design? Could this be for PAk FA? Any Russian speakers here
> 
> *Watch from 7:44*



They had tested that TVC as part of their technology preparations for the PAK FA. However, they probably decided that 3D thrust vectoring was more important with stealthy nozzles.


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## Martian2

*Russian Embassy in India official website states 0.5m2 RCS for T-50/Pak-Fa*

India, Russia close to pact on next generation fighter






----------

*T-50/Pak-Fa (0.5 m2 RCS) is not as stealthy as F-22 or J-20*



sudhir007 said:


> 'Indo-Russian fighter jet better than Chinese, US aircraft' - The Economic Times
> Commander of the Russian Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin told Russian news agency RIA Novosti that his country's government has decided to give top priority to the development of the joint venture aircraft.
> 
> "While comparing Russia's T-50 PAK FA with the US F-22 Raptor and China's Chengdu J-20 Black Eagle, one concludes that the T-50 is superior to its foreign analogues in terms of its maximum speed in afterburner and standard modes, maximum range and thrust-to-weight ratio," he said.



The Russian Air Force Colonel specifically avoided claiming the T-50/Pak-Fa is as stealthy as the F-22 Raptor or J-20 Mighty Dragon.

*World stealth fighter rankings*






#1 F-22 Raptor - RCS is 0.0001 m2 (from *GlobalSecurity* citation)

#2 J-20 Mighty Dragon - RCS is intermediate between F-22 and F-35 (Frontal and side-aspect RCS are 0.0001 m2 like F-22. Rear-aspect RCS with round LOAN engine nozzles is 0.005 m2 like F-35. See *Australia Air Power* citation below.)

#3 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - RCS is 0.005 m2 (from *GlobalSecurity* citation)

#4 T-50/Pak-Fa - RCS is 0.5 m2 (from *Russian Embassy in India* official website citation)

References:

GlobalSecurity: Radar Cross Section (RCS)

Russian Embassy in India official website: India, Russia close to pact on next generation fighter

----------

*Australia Air Power: J-20 is a "genuine Very Low Observable design"*

Engineers and Scientists who work in &#8216;stealth&#8217; (AKA &#8216;Low Observable&#8217 designs have a way for explaining it to lay people: &#8216;Stealth&#8217; is achieved by Shaping, Shaping, Shaping and Materials (Denys Overholser).

The F-22A is clearly well shaped for low observability above about 500 MHz, and from all important aspects. *The J-20 has observed the &#8216;Shaping, Shaping, Shaping&#8217; imperative, except for the axisymmetric nozzles, and some curvature of the sides* that smears a strong, but very narrow specular return into something of a more observable fan. *The X-35 mostly observed the &#8216;Shaping, Shaping, Shaping&#8217; rule, but since then, to quote a colleague, &#8216;hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts&#8217; have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative*, forcing excessive reliance on materials, which are at the rear-end of the path to &#8216;Low Observability&#8217;.

*While discussing &#8216;rear-ends&#8217;, both the F-35 and the J-20 have large signature contributions from their jet nozzles.* However, the difference is much like the proverbial &#8216;Ham Omelette&#8217;: the F-35 Pig is committed, but the J-20 Chicken is a participant. *If the Chinese decide that rear sector Low Observability is tactically and strategically important, they are at the design stage where they can copy the F-22A nozzle design for the production configuration of the J-20.*"


----------

*Why hasn't Russia fixed the T-50's problems in the last two years?*





Sukhoi hasn't fixed a single stealth design problem in two years.

The list of T-50/Pak-Fa design problems is well known. The more interesting question is why hasn't Sukhoi fixed a single problem in two years. I believe Russia has reached its technological limits.

1. *Protruding IRST* - To recess the IRST, it would displace space in the nose section of the plane. This would affect the size of the radar that can be installed. Apparently, there isn't enough space for both a recessed IRST and the planned radar.

2. *Metal-framed canopy* - Only two countries, the United States and China, have built a frameless bubble canopy. This is a high-tech item that must withstand sustained supersonic speeds or a bird strike. Russia apparently lacks the technology to build a frameless bubble canopy.

In addition to stealth, a frameless bubble canopy provides an unobstructed view of the airspace.

3. *Tall fuselage behind pilot* - If you make a detailed comparison between the T-50 and the Su-30, you will find many similarities. The T-50 appears to be an evolutionary design of the Su-30 and not a completely new design.

The tall fuselage area behind the pilot appears to house satellite communication equipment and cannot be reduced readily.

4. *Engine fan blades in straight airduct* - To build a stealthy S-duct, the T-50 would have to be completely redesigned. Sukhoi chose the practical option of installing a linear engine pod, because a S-duct would crimp the payload area.

Also, it is very difficult for maintenance to access a S-duct integrated into the fusleage of the fighter. To design a F-22 or J-20, it would require countless hours of CAD design to ensure that every part was accessible to maintenance personnel.

Sukhoi was willing to sacrifice stealth for ease of maintenance.

5. *Vents reflect radar* - In the design of the T-50 and Su-30, the vents are important to shape the airflow and probably to achieve the proper pressure in the engines. Sukhoi cannot simply remove the vents to improve the stealthiness of the T-50.

6. *Metal engine pods reflect radar* - Engines are hot and they need to be properly cooled. Sukhoi cannot simply encase the metal engine pods in RAM. Once the engine pods are encased in insulating RAM, Sukhoi must resolve the cooling requirement by building a plumbing network to redistribute the heat.

This would add weight, complexity, and cost to the T-50. Sukhoi may have decided the costs outweighed the benefits of stealth.

The primary purpose of the T-50 is not to win battles against the F-22 or J-20. Russia relies on its thermonuclear arsenal to ensure its safety. In other words, the effectiveness of the T-50 against the F-22 or J-20 is not an issue for Russia.

For foreign purchasers of the T-50, the exposed metal engine pods are a death knell for their airforce. The RCS for exposed metal engine pods is huge. The T-50's exposed metal engine pods are no different from a fourth-generation non-stealthy Su-30 and they can be detected at tremendous distances.

7. *Gaps between airducts and fuselage* - The gaps between the airducts and fuselage cannot be eliminated, because there are vents along the side of the airducts that provide a vital aerodynamic function.

Also, you can't just move the airducts and engine pods against the fuselage. There are aerodynamic airflow considerations, heat issue, and maintenance access problems. The airducts and engine pods on both the Su-30 and T-50 were intentionally placed at their exact locations.

If you move the airduct and engine pod, the center of mass of the wing changes and it affects the stability of the plane.

8. *Uneven heights of underside* - To achieve a smoother and stealthier underside, there are only two choices. Either reduce the size of the airducts and engine pods or expand the fuselage and extend it downwards.

The airduct size can't be changed, because the engines require a flow of a minimum cubic feet of air per second. The engine pods can't be reduced, because the combustion chamber needs a minimum size to achieve a desired thrust.

The other choice is to extend the fuselage downwards. This is not a simple proposition. This affects the rigidity of the entire fuselage. The fuselage ribs will be much larger (i.e. heavier) and it may compromise airworthiness. Preserving the same width, longer fuselage ribs are weaker and cracks may develop earlier.

Also, an extended fuselage will block the internal side vents. This is a constant theme. If Sukhoi tries to improve the stealth characteristic of the current T-50, it tends to conflict with an existing aerodynamic need.

9. *Lack of stealthy saw-toothed edges on bay doors* - If you look closely at pictures of a J-20 with its saw-toothed bay doors closed, it is impossible to see the outline of the saw-toothed edges. This is a credit to China's machine tool industry. The precision of the machining can achieve very fine tolerances.

On the other hand, pictures of the closed straight-edged bay doors on the T-50 show the clear outlines of the doors. Without machining to fine tolerances, Sukhoi has probably concluded the closed bay doors aren't stealthy anyway. There is no point in introducing non-stealthy saw-toothed bay doors.

Russia lacks an advanced machine tool industry and stealthy saw-toothed doors are beyond her current technological capability.

10. *Round engine-pod shape reflects radar* - I've already covered this issue in item #6. Sukhoi cannot just encase the hot engine pods in RAM material.

11. *Lack of gold-colored transparent RAM for cockpit canopy* - There are pictures of F-22 and J-20 with gold-colored transparent RAM on their frameless cockpit canopies. To date, I have never seen a T-50 picture with similar transparent RAM.

Russian material science technology appears to have reached its limit. Russia may be capable of manufacturing opaque RAM for the plane in general. However, in two years, Sukhoi has not been able to produce transparent gold-colored RAM.

On the other hand, Sukhoi may have decided gold-colored transparent RAM is pointless. Since the metal-framed cockpit canopy is already reflecting radar, there is no point in applying transparent RAM to the T-50 cockpit canopy.

----------

In conclusion, Sukhoi hasn't tried to fix all of the well-known problems with the T-50/Pak-Fa because the alteration of part of the plane affects the performance of other parts of the plane. In other words, Sukhoi is trapped.

Sukhoi can't make the T-50/Pak-Fa more stealthy, because the Su-30 airframe was never meant to be used as a stealth platform. To build a F-22 or J-20 class stealth fighter, Sukhoi needs to start with a clean sheet. However, the development of a world-class stealth fighter can take a decade or more.

Russia doesn't have the luxury of starting with a new design and it needs a "stealth" fighter for export now. Hence, the result is a severely-compromised T-50/Pak-Fa. The T-50 is an evolutionary improvement on the basic Su-30 airframe by having a stealthy shaped nose, internal weapon bays, planform alignment, canted forward airduct, and canted vertical stabilizers.

If you are counting, you will notice the T-50/Pak-Fa lacks 12 stealth design elements (when you include non-serrated round engine nozzles) and only has five stealth design features.

The T-50/Pak-Fa is clearly not competitive with the F-22 or J-20. Sukhoi has a long way to go. It will be interesting to see if Sukhoi is able to improve on the currently deficient third T-50/Pak-Fa prototype.

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## ptldM3

Get your rediculous facticious fanboys crap out of here, and while you are at it take the J-20 mighty drag queen with you.

Anyone thinking you need a gold canopy to be stealth is a real peice of work  F-35 and SU-35 canopies come to mind?

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## Bl[i]tZ

All Foreign ministries/embassies host media articles to further their diplomacy (that article is by Ajai Shukla). They don't necessarily stand by every word (just like RT not equal to endorsement goes on most twitterati's profile, which means that they found it interesting and nothing else).

Chini propaganda about the rest of PAK FA design is baseless though I'm impressed by the skills of chini engineers who managed to fly a piano shaped object.

The last two fighter designs of J series speak for themselves

J-10 is a close copy of the Israeli Lavi jet and J-11 is a reverse-engineered copy of Sukhoi Su-27SK,

Now you want the the world believe J-20 is a 5th gen fighter. :


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## sancho

Martian2 said:


> *Russian Embassy in India official website states 0.5m2 RCS for T-50/Pak-Fa*



Haven't we missed the important part?



> *Compiled from the article of Ajai Shukla, Business Standart, January, 2010*

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## DARKY

sancho said:


> Haven't we missed the important part?



This Kid has got some serious Mental issues needs some quick treatment... in one of the thread he was posting about Bombing India with Hydrogen bombs and air dropping Chinese paratroopers there.... to be cooked aswell....


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## Wet Shirt Contest

@Martin2 By Chinese Logic Only Saw-Toothed Edges Are Stealthy ?

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## Martian2

sancho said:


> Haven't we missed the important part?



There are five reasons to believe the 0.5m2 RCS for the T-50/Pak-Fa is correct.

1. The stated 0.5m2 RCS is on the official Russian Government Embassy in India website. This is official Russian government information.

2. If they believed it was incorrect, Sukhoi has had two years to correct the 0.5m2 RCS for the T-50/Pak-Fa. We can only conclude Sukhoi has silently agreed to the 0.5m2 RCS on the Russian Embassy government website.

3. The Indian minister who leaked the secret RCS information was part of an Indian government delegation to negotiate joint development of the T-50/FGFA program. He did not pull the information out of thin air. Most likely, Sukhoi informed the Indian minister of the 0.5m2 RCS for the T-50/Pak-Fa. This is leaked official Indian government information.

4. The Russian Air Force Colonel pointedly avoided claiming the T-50/Pak-Fa is as stealthy as a F-22 Raptor or J-20 Mighty Dragon. A 0.5m2 RCS for the T-50/Pak-Fa is consistent with the Russian Colonel's comparison of the T-50/Pak-Fa, F-22, and J-20. (See Russia to Increase Number of 5G Fighters in Test Flights)

5. After waiting two years, a technical analysis of the deficiencies in the stealth design of the third T-50/Pak-Fa prototype justifies the T-50's RCS of 0.5m2; which we expect to be considerably higher than the F-22 or the J-20 (see technical analysis below). None of these stealth design problems exists on the F-22 or the J-20.






Sukhoi hasn't fixed a single stealth design problem in two years.

[Personal note: I hope none of you take this personally. This is merely an impartial and objective analysis from a fellow military enthusiast. If I could give a lower RCS for the current T-50/Pak-Fa third prototype (based on a reliable citation and/or technical analysis) then I would. However, I believe the information that I have presented is the most accurate and reliable to date.]


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## sancho

Martian2 said:


> There are five reasons to believe the 0.5m2 RCS for the T-50/Pak-Fa is correct.
> 
> 1. The stated 0.5m2 RCS is on the official Russian Government Embassy in India website. *This is official Russian government information.*



No it's not, you just failed in your attempt to troll because the source was clearly given in that article, but you left it out for obvious reasons. Ajay Shukla is known to be a biased and not really reliable journalist and he made estimations in his article from 2010, so from the prototype that made the first flight, not the later versions. There are many mistakes in your post and I would suggest to go through this thread and get more infos on the current T50 prototypes and the final Pak Fa and FGFA versions, instead of claiming baseless things and trolling around about J20. 
Keep this thread clean of useless flame baits please!

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## Martian2

sancho said:


> No it's not, you just failed in your attempt to troll because the source was clearly given in that article, but you left it out for obvious reasons. Ajay Shukla is known to be a biased and not really reliable journalist and he made estimations in his article from 2010, so from the prototype that made the first flight, not the later versions. There are many mistakes in your post and I would suggest to go through this thread and get more infos on the current T50 prototypes and the final Pak Fa and FGFA versions, instead of claiming baseless things and trolling around about J20.
> Keep this thread clean of useless flame baits please!



1. I did not leave anything out. I provided the citation link (see post #641). When I took the screenshot, I selected a reasonable size for legibility.

2. The information that I cited has been posted on the Russian Embassy in India official website for two years. It is impossible for Sukhoi to be unaware of its existence. The only inference is that the 0.5m2 RCS is correct.

3. There have been no outward design changes between the first two prototypes and the third prototype. The only outward change has been the cosmetic removal of the pitot tube. In the technical analysis picture, I analyzed the latest third T-50/Pak-Fa prototype (which flew threw months ago in November 2011).

Reference: Third PAK FA Prototype Flies: key.Aero, Military Aviation

"*Third PAK FA Prototype Flies*
Dave Allport - 23-Nov-2011

*The third prototype of the new Russian fifth-generation PAK FA fighter made its maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22.*





The third prototype PAK FA takes off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22, 2011, for its maiden flight. (Credit: Sukhoi)

MAKING ITS maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22 was the third prototype of the Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA fifth-generation fighter. The aircraft, flown by test pilot Sergey Bogdan, was airborne for just over an hour before landing back at the KNAAPO factory airfield.

The flight was deemed a success, with all tests of stability and evaluation of engine performance proceeding as planned. The pilot reported reliable operation of all systems and components.

Maiden flight of the first prototype took place on January 29, 2010, also at Komsomolsk-on-Amur, followed by the second aircraft on March 3, 2011. Both prototypes made their public debut at the MAKS 2011 International Aviation and Space Salon in Zhukovsky, Moscow. The aircraft have now completed more than 100 test flights."

----------

*I stand by my analysis. Compare the T-50/Pak-Fa picture with the J-20 below for yourself. For example, notice the T-50/Pak-Fa has a radar-reflecting metal-framed cockpit canopy. Now, look at the hi-tech frameless bubble cockpit canopy on the J-20.*

[Note: Thank you to Hu Songshan and J-20 Mighty Dragon Continue Flight Testing in February 2012 ~ Chinese Military Review]


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## lepziboy

Martian2 said:


> 1. I did not leave anything out. I provided the citation link. When I took the screenshot, I selected a reasonable size for legibility.
> 
> 2. The information that I cited has been posted on the Russian Embassy in India official website for two years. It is impossible for Sukhoi to be unaware of its existence. The only inference is that the 0.5m2 RCS is correct.
> 
> 3. There have been no outward design changes between the first two prototypes and the third prototype. The only outward change has been the cosmetic removal of the pitot tube. In the technical analysis picture, I analyzed the latest third T-50/Pak-Fa prototype (which flew threw months ago in November 2011).
> 
> Reference: Third PAK FA Prototype Flies: key.Aero, Military Aviation
> 
> "*Third PAK FA Prototype Flies*
> Dave Allport - 23-Nov-2011
> 
> *The third prototype of the new Russian fifth-generation PAK FA fighter made its maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The third prototype PAK FA takes off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22, 2011, for its maiden flight. (Credit: Sukhoi)
> 
> MAKING ITS maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22 was the third prototype of the Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA fifth-generation fighter. The aircraft, flown by test pilot Sergey Bogdan, was airborne for just over an hour before landing back at the KNAAPO factory airfield.
> 
> The flight was deemed a success, with all tests of stability and evaluation of engine performance proceeding as planned. The pilot reported reliable operation of all systems and components.
> 
> Maiden flight of the first prototype took place on January 29, 2010, also at Komsomolsk-on-Amur, followed by the second aircraft on March 3, 2011. Both prototypes made their public debut at the MAKS 2011 International Aviation and Space Salon in Zhukovsky, Moscow. The aircraft have now completed more than 100 test flights."
> 
> ----------
> 
> *I stand by my analysis.*
> 
> By the way, none of the Russian T-50/Pak-Fa problems exists on the Chinese J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter.
> 
> *Terrific J-20 Mighty Dragon close-up photographs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 taxiing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another day of tests
> 
> [Note: Thank you to Hu Songshan and J-20 Mighty Dragon Continue Flight Testing in February 2012 ~ Chinese Military Review]



stop posting and derailing the thread with your J-20 DragonFLY


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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> Haven't we missed the important part?




The guy clearly has obsessive compulsive disorder with the pak-fa. If you are familiar with his posts he makes claims such as IRST not being stealthy, 2 piece canopy not being stealthy, rivets not being stealthy, bumps and humps not being stealthy but staunchly claimed that the WZ-10 was so called stealthy even though it has a large FLIR, fixed landing gears, pylons, no single piece canopy, rivets, gun, vertical stab, and various protrusions.

The guy claims defects in the F-35 and pak-fa but when confronted with the same defects on the J-20 he simply claims, ohwell the J-20 Mighty Dragon is excluded from that rule because it has stealthy shaping.

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## Birbal

Ignore the troll and report his posts.

As for stealth RCS measures, it should be noted that the Russians take a more holistic approach to RCS and average RCS over all angles and lots of frequencies, whereas American quotes usually give optimal headon and wavelength RCS figures. Thus, the Russians quote the F-35 and F-22 as having RCS of ~0.3m^2!


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## Martian2

ptldM3 said:


> The guy clearly has obsessive compulsive disorder with the pak-fa. If you are familiar with his posts he makes claims such as IRST not being stealthy, 2 piece canopy not being stealthy, rivets not being stealthy, &#8216;bumps and humps&#8217; not being stealthy but staunchly claimed that the WZ-10 was so called stealthy even though it has a large FLIR, fixed landing gears, pylons, no single piece canopy, rivets, gun, vertical stab, and various protrusions.
> 
> The guy claims defects in the F-35 and pak-fa but when confronted with the same defects on the J-20 he simply claims, oh&#8230;well the J-20 Mighty Dragon is excluded from that rule because it has stealthy shaping.



If I provide citations for each item (which I had already done in the J-20 thread for the past year), will you apologize for slandering me?

Also, I thought everyone understood the reason that each highlighted deficiency is not stealthy. Do I need to explain them again (which I had already done in the J-20 thread)?

For example, let me illustrate why the T-50's uneven underside is not stealthy.





The uneven underside on the T-50/Pak-Fa third prototype creates a natural 90-degree angle. This allows enemy radar to reflect off the fuselage, bounce off the inside-face of the air-inlet, and return to the transmitter/detector for detection.

The enemy radar can see the T-50/Pak-Fa, because of the uneven underside. This result should not surprise you. The Su-30 (which is not stealthy) also has an uneven underside like the T-50/Pak-Fa.





When the same enemy radar (either airborne or ground-based) tries to detect a Chinese J-20 Mighty Dragon, it fails.

Both the J-20 Mighty Dragon and F-22 Raptor have smooth and flat undersides to deflect radar away from the transmitter/detector. On this criterion, it is obvious the J-20 and F-22 are stealthy. It is also equally obvious the uneven underside of the T-50/Pak-Fa third prototype is not stealthy.

If Sukhoi ever fixes this problem then I would credit Sukhoi with another stealth characteristic. However, right now, the T-50/Pak-Fa third prototype is deficient in comparison to the J-20 and F-22 across at least 10 stealth design requirements (which I discussed in detail in post #641).

[Note: In both pictures, I performed a ray trace of the incoming radar and its reflection off of the underside of the Russian T-50/Pak-Fa third prototype and China's J-20 Mighty Dragon. You are familiar with a ray trace, because you see visible light bouncing off mirrors all the time.

Radar is an electromagnetic wave like visible light. The only critical differences are that radar has a much longer wavelength and it's invisible to the naked eye. Otherwise, a ray trace of radar resembles visible light.]


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## ptldM3

Martian2 said:


> If I provide citations for each item (which I had already done in the J-20 thread for the past year), will you apologize for slandering me?
> 
> Also, I thought everyone understood the reason that each highlighted deficiency is not stealthy. Do I need to explain them again (which I had already done in the J-20 thread)?



No, never because you do two things, you post unreliable/bias sources, and you manipulate them. Moreover, your credibility, if you ever had any, is gone, due to the fact that you use double standars and China glorification such as the WZ-10. Ironic how a small IRST is not stealth as is a two piece canopy but a gargantuan FLIR, and multiple piece canopy is stealthy on the WZ-10?

As for your silly picture with a red-line, that is not how EM energy works

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## sms

Martian2 said:


> If I provide citations for each item (which I had already done in the J-20 thread for the past year), will you apologize for slandering me?
> 
> Also, I thought everyone understood the reason that each highlighted deficiency is not stealthy. Do I need to explain them again (which I had already done in the J-20 thread)?
> 
> For example, let me illustrate why the T-50's uneven underside is not stealthy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The uneven underside on the T-50/Pak-Fa third prototype creates a natural 90-degree angle. This allows enemy radar to reflect off the fuselage, bounce off the inside-face of the air-inlet, and return to the transmitter/detector for detection.
> 
> The enemy radar can see the T-50/Pak-Fa, because of the uneven underside. This result should not surprise you. The Su-30 (which is not stealthy) also has an uneven underside like the T-50/Pak-Fa.



This is ridicules ..please lean how radar works ...Gambit has posted lot of good stuff. If you still do not understand I can recommend some good books to polish your skill and to come back with better arguments.


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## ptldM3

sms said:


> This is ridicules ..*please lean how radar works *...Gambit has posted lot of good stuff. If you still do not understand I can recommend some good books to polish your skill and to come back with better arguments.



What do you expect from a guy that claimed that canards are okay for stealth because they are paper thin from the front. For someone to make such as claim they must be totally ignorant of edge diffraction which at the time of his post he probably was. 

I also wouldn't take his esstimates serious this guy claimed that the J-20;s canards are 3 feet long.


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## sancho

Martian2 said:


> 1. I did not leave anything out. I provided the citation link (see post #641).


Of course you did and I already quoted the from that very link, but let me make it more obvious if you still deny:






India, Russia close to pact on next generation fighter


*So all you base your believes on, is a government website, that posted an article writen by a totally unofficial (and unreliable) source!*

Once again, don't try to derail this thread, because you constantly get corrected by Gambit or ptldM3 in the J20 thread.

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## sms

ptldM3 said:


> What do you expect from a guy that claimed that canards are okay for stealth because they are paper thin from the front. For someone to make such as claim they must be totally ignorant of edge diffraction which at the time of his post he probably was.
> 
> I also wouldn't take his esstimates serious this guy claimed that the J-20;s *canards are 3 feet long*.




Again that's ridicules .. each canard looks like in range of 2.5 ~ 3 mtr. But I'd be waiting for official version and that is scare commodity in China.


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## Black Widow

Give them this plane, these expert will find drawback in this as well

NOTE: This plane was assumed better than F22 in all aspects.


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## sms

Black Widow said:


> Give them this plane, these expert will find drawback in this as well
> 
> NOTE: This plane was assumed better than F22 in all aspects.



Ophs.. currently I'm in China admiring well built Shanghai/ Beijing ..but I'm sorry to say I'm not able to access youtube not sure why? Is it blocked in China?

Sorry for off topic post.


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## Black Widow

sms said:


> Ophs.. currently I'm in China admiring well built Shanghai/ Beijing ..but I'm sorry to say I'm not able to access youtube not sure why? Is it blocked in China?
> 
> Sorry for off topic post.



Enjoy the trip.  The youtube video I posted is about YF23. It is assumed that F23 is much better than F22. Come back to India and watch it 






@ topic: I have full trust on Russia, if Russia says, they are making something as good as F22, They will definitely do it.


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## Martian2

*Indian Defense Projects Sentinel agrees on T-50/Pak-Fa stealth deficiencies*

Let's approach this discussion from a completely different view. I am presenting a citation from the Indian Defense Projects Sentinel, which mentions most of the T-50/Pak-Fa stealth deficiencies that I have mentioned. The point is that there is wide agreement among objective T-50/Pak-Fa observers about the existing stealth problems.

I understand that you don't trust me. How about trusting a former Indian air force fighter pilot?






The Indian Defense Projects Sentinel analysis (see below) is the same as my own.

Reference: PAK-FA / T-50 - Indian Defense Projects Sentinel





Contrary to PtldM3's propaganda, the Indian Defense Projects Sentinel also lists the Pak-Fa's protruding IRST (#2 on list) and metal-framed cockpit canopy (#3 on list) as not stealthy. The full list of 7 stealth problems is itemized in the red box.





Who wants to be the first to claim former IAF Jaguar pilot Mr. Vijainder K. Thankur is a biased anti-Indian source? Or are you willing to accept his objective analysis of the stealth deficiencies in the T-50/Pak-Fa, which I have summarized in my diagram?

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## Tracy

Roybot said:


> New TVC design? Could this be for PAk FA? Any Russian speakers here
> 
> *Watch from 7:44*




They had installed 2D thrust-vectoring on Lyulka AL-31FP (Al-31FU) but, rejected it later because of performance issues.

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## Martian2

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> @Martin2 By Chinese Logic Only Saw-Toothed Edges Are Stealthy ?



I am surprised that you and Firemaster are unaware of the stealthiness of saw-toothed edges.

Both of you frequent the J-20 thread and you must have read my previous explanations. However, I will provide the citation here in this thread for the first time on saw-toothed edges. Hopefully, you won't demonstrate your ignorance again regarding the stealth design feature of saw-toothed edges.

I am very disappointed in many of you. You have been discussing stealth design for two years now and many of you don't seem to have the faintest understanding of the basics of stealth design for a fighter aircraft. If you are ignorant, why do you keep challenging my list of 17 features for stealth fighter design?

Moving along, you are referring to item #9 on my list (see below). I am providing a citation to buttress item #9.

Reference: Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Stealth Technology





Saw-tooths are a basic element of stealth design on the B-2, F-22, and J-20. However, unlike the American and Chinese stealth aircraft, many bay doors on the Russian T-50/Pak-Fa have no saw-tooths (see picture below).

----------

*Why hasn't Russia fixed the T-50's problems in the last two years?*





Sukhoi hasn't fixed a single stealth design problem in two years.

The list of T-50/Pak-Fa design problems is well known. The more interesting question is why hasn't Sukhoi fixed a single problem in two years. I believe Russia has reached its technological limits.

1. *Protruding IRST* - To recess the IRST, it would displace space in the nose section of the plane. This would affect the size of the radar that can be installed. Apparently, there isn't enough space for both a recessed IRST and the planned radar.

2. *Metal-framed canopy* - Only two countries, the United States and China, have built a frameless bubble canopy. This is a high-tech item that must withstand sustained supersonic speeds or a bird strike. Russia apparently lacks the technology to build a frameless bubble canopy.

In addition to stealth, a frameless bubble canopy provides an unobstructed view of the airspace.

3. *Tall fuselage behind pilot* - If you make a detailed comparison between the T-50 and the Su-30, you will find many similarities. The T-50 appears to be an evolutionary design of the Su-30 and not a completely new design.

The tall fuselage area behind the pilot appears to house satellite communication equipment and cannot be reduced readily.

4. *Engine fan blades in straight airduct* - To build a stealthy S-duct, the T-50 would have to be completely redesigned. Sukhoi chose the practical option of installing a linear engine pod, because a S-duct would crimp the payload area.

Also, it is very difficult for maintenance to access a S-duct integrated into the fusleage of the fighter. To design a F-22 or J-20, it would require countless hours of CAD design to ensure that every part was accessible to maintenance personnel.

Sukhoi was willing to sacrifice stealth for ease of maintenance.

5. *Vents reflect radar* - In the design of the T-50 and Su-30, the vents are important to shape the airflow and probably to achieve the proper pressure in the engines. Sukhoi cannot simply remove the vents to improve the stealthiness of the T-50.

6. *Metal engine pods reflect radar* - Engines are hot and they need to be properly cooled. Sukhoi cannot simply encase the metal engine pods in RAM. Once the engine pods are encased in insulating RAM, Sukhoi must resolve the cooling requirement by building a plumbing network to redistribute the heat.

This would add weight, complexity, and cost to the T-50. Sukhoi may have decided the costs outweighed the benefits of stealth.

The primary purpose of the T-50 is not to win battles against the F-22 or J-20. Russia relies on its thermonuclear arsenal to ensure its safety. In other words, the effectiveness of the T-50 against the F-22 or J-20 is not an issue for Russia.

For foreign purchasers of the T-50, the exposed metal engine pods are a death knell for their airforce. The RCS for exposed metal engine pods is huge. The T-50's exposed metal engine pods are no different from a fourth-generation non-stealthy Su-30 and they can be detected at tremendous distances.

7. *Gaps between airducts and fuselage* - The gaps between the airducts and fuselage cannot be eliminated, because there are vents along the side of the airducts that provide a vital aerodynamic function.

Also, you can't just move the airducts and engine pods against the fuselage. There are aerodynamic airflow considerations, heat issue, and maintenance access problems. The airducts and engine pods on both the Su-30 and T-50 were intentionally placed at their exact locations.

If you move the airduct and engine pod, the center of mass of the wing changes and it affects the stability of the plane.

8. *Uneven heights of underside* - To achieve a smoother and stealthier underside, there are only two choices. Either reduce the size of the airducts and engine pods or expand the fuselage and extend it downwards.

The airduct size can't be changed, because the engines require a flow of a minimum cubic feet of air per second. The engine pods can't be reduced, because the combustion chamber needs a minimum size to achieve a desired thrust.

The other choice is to extend the fuselage downwards. This is not a simple proposition. This affects the rigidity of the entire fuselage. The fuselage ribs will be much larger (i.e. heavier) and it may compromise airworthiness. Preserving the same width, longer fuselage ribs are weaker and cracks may develop earlier.

Also, an extended fuselage will block the internal side vents. This is a constant theme. If Sukhoi tries to improve the stealth characteristic of the current T-50, it tends to conflict with an existing aerodynamic need.

9. *Lack of stealthy saw-toothed edges on bay doors* - If you look closely at pictures of a J-20 with its saw-toothed bay doors closed, it is impossible to see the outline of the saw-toothed edges. This is a credit to China's machine tool industry. The precision of the machining can achieve very fine tolerances.

On the other hand, pictures of the closed straight-edged bay doors on the T-50 show the clear outlines of the doors. Without machining to fine tolerances, Sukhoi has probably concluded the closed bay doors aren't stealthy anyway. There is no point in introducing non-stealthy saw-toothed bay doors.

Russia lacks an advanced machine tool industry and stealthy saw-toothed doors are beyond her current technological capability.

10. *Round engine-pod shape reflects radar* - I've already covered this issue in item #6. Sukhoi cannot just encase the hot engine pods in RAM material.

11. *Lack of gold-colored transparent RAM for cockpit canopy* - There are pictures of F-22 and J-20 with gold-colored transparent RAM on their frameless cockpit canopies. To date, I have never seen a T-50 picture with similar transparent RAM.

Russian material science technology appears to have reached its limit. Russia may be capable of manufacturing opaque RAM for the plane in general. However, in two years, Sukhoi has not been able to produce transparent gold-colored RAM.

On the other hand, Sukhoi may have decided gold-colored transparent RAM is pointless. Since the metal-framed cockpit canopy is already reflecting radar, there is no point in applying transparent RAM to the T-50 cockpit canopy.

----------

In conclusion, Sukhoi hasn't tried to fix all of the well-known problems with the T-50/Pak-Fa because the alteration of part of the plane affects the performance of other parts of the plane. In other words, Sukhoi is trapped.

Sukhoi can't make the T-50/Pak-Fa more stealthy, because the Su-30 airframe was never meant to be used as a stealth platform. To build a F-22 or J-20 class stealth fighter, Sukhoi needs to start with a clean sheet. However, the development of a world-class stealth fighter can take a decade or more.

Russia doesn't have the luxury of starting with a new design and it needs a "stealth" fighter for export now. Hence, the result is a severely-compromised T-50/Pak-Fa. The T-50 is an evolutionary improvement on the basic Su-30 airframe by having a stealthy shaped nose, internal weapon bays, planform alignment, canted forward airduct, and canted vertical stabilizers.

*If you are counting, you will notice the T-50/Pak-Fa lacks 12 stealth design elements (when you include non-serrated round engine nozzles) and only has five stealth design features.*

The T-50/Pak-Fa is clearly not competitive with the F-22 or J-20. Sukhoi has a long way to go. It will be interesting to see if Sukhoi is able to improve on the currently deficient third T-50/Pak-Fa prototype.

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## Amey

What a bad answer.........


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## Firemaster

@ Martian when did I post about Sawtooth edges???

Are you mistaken me with someone else

I just thanked him


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## sms

Martian2 said:


> 11. *Lack of gold-colored transparent RAM for cockpit canopy* - There are pictures of F-22 and J-20 with gold-colored *transparent RAM *on their frameless cockpit canopies. To date, I have never seen a T-50 picture with similar *transparent RAM*.
> 
> Russian material science technology appears to have reached its limit. Russia may be capable of manufacturing opaque RAM for the plane in general. However, in two years, *Sukhoi has not been able to produce transparent gold-colored RAM.*
> 
> On the other hand, Sukhoi may have decided *gold-colored transparent RAM* is pointless. Since the metal-framed cockpit canopy is already reflecting radar, there is no point in applying transparent RAM to the T-50 cockpit canopy.



I wanted to give a details reply for your post, but after reading this. I've lost hope. 
Person who do not know difference between RAM and reflective coating is preaching other about Stealth?

Sigh....


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## Wet Shirt Contest

Martian2 said:


> I am surprised that *you and Firemaster are unaware of the stealthiness of saw-toothed edges.*
> 
> Both of you frequent the J-20 thread and *you must have read my previous explanations* . However, I will provide the citation here in this thread for the first time on saw-toothed edges. Hopefully, *you won't demonstrate your ignorance again regarding the stealth design feature of saw-toothed edges.*



Hello When Did I Said "Saw Toothed edges Are NOT Stealthy" ? And Lets Not Talk About How Much I Know....Shows Your Level Of Knowledge. 

My Kind Regards


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## jackyy




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## soldierofallah

This planes gonna be a BEAST in the sky.


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## sathya

That Gold coloured canopy thing.. i think i read, India developed it some time back..


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## Firemaster

sathya said:


> That Gold coloured canopy thing.. i think i read, India developed it some time back..



Any source???


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## sancho

Martian2 said:


> I understand that you don't trust me. How about trusting a former Indian air force fighter pilot?



It doesn't have anything to do with your origin, but with your obvious troll behaviour to faking or claiming wrong things and simply ignoring the fact that you and the "sources" you presented so far, just talks about the T50 prototype!

It is widely known and reported that, the serial production versions (especially the Indian one) will have several important changes, like materials, radar blockers (which the last source mentioned as well, but which you left out again), new engines and fuselage coverings...
That's why most of your points are simply wrong and just shows the level of bias and the lack of knowledge you have! Just take this part:



> The T-50 appears to be an evolutionary design of the Su-30 and not a completely new design.



Yes, T50 is an evolution of the successful Flanker design, but it's simply laughable to claim it's not a new design. Does any Su 30 before had:

- delta wings
- all movable tail fins
- movable LERX
- a straight and not angled cockpit section

No they haven't! Only the seperated engine bays looks similar, because that is a typical Russian design feature, be it for the Flanker series or the Mig 29 series. It was quiet logical that they will use the advantages of this design to generate lift again, because it worked well before. Btw, the air intakes are angled at the outer sides, so there is no right angle between weaponbays and them, another wrong claim of you, like so many:







As I told you earlier, instead of making a fool out of yourself by claiming such things, use this thread to learn about the T50 and the later serial production versions, then get to an opinion or conclusion. you might read about NG engine development, that will change the engine coverings and TVN design, or that the production Pak Fa will get IRST with a special gold coating to reduce the RCS, which then obviously can be used for the canopy again (if needed, YF 23 has a similar 2 piece canopy and was considered to had a lower RCS than the YF 22):







...but therefor you have to take latest news to account and not only old stuff that talks about the first prototype, more over you have to look at it unbiased and that might be the main problem.

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## ptldM3

Martian2 said:


> I am very disappointed in many of you. You have been discussing stealth design for two years now and many of you don't seem to have the faintest understanding of the basics of stealth design for a fighter aircraft. If you are ignorant, why do you keep challenging my list of 17 features for stealth fighter design?




I&#8217;m going to be as nice as possible when I say this so, here it goes--shut it. You know nothing about stealth, you claimed that the J-20 canards are not a problem for stealth because they are paper thin---epic fail. You also made a fool out of yourself with some panel alignment argument that you clearly had no idea about, and its quite obvious how your claims are all bias and twisted, you have been caught on many occasions claiming that the same features that are found in the pak-fa and are poor for stealth are actually good for stealth on Chinese made aircraft.









Martian2 said:


> Saw-tooths are a basic element of stealth design on the B-2, F-22, and J-20. However, unlike the American and Chinese stealth aircraft, many bay doors on the Russian T-50/Pak-Fa have no saw-tooths (see picture below).




The only bay door on the pak-fa that have no serration is the rear bay door and if you looked at the X-35 prototype it also didn&#8217;t have any saw tooth bays.



.



Martian2 said:


> The list of T-50/Pak-Fa design problems is well known. The more interesting question is why hasn't Sukhoi fixed a single problem in two years. I believe Russia has reached its technological limits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. *Protruding IRST* - To recess the IRST, it would displace space in the nose section of the plane. This would affect the size of the radar that can be installed. Apparently, there isn't enough space for both a recessed IRST and the planned radar.





So than you would agree that the 4 underwing pods on the J-20 would be even worse because there are four of them and they are many, many times larger. Let me guess the J-20 is excluded here because those underwing pods are &#8216;stealth&#8217;. You also had no problem claiming the WZ-10 being stealth with that ridiculous FLIR hanging off its nose, now did you?





Martian2 said:


> 2. *Metal-framed canopy* - Only two countries, the United States and China, have built a frameless bubble canopy. This is a high-tech item that must withstand sustained supersonic speeds or a bird strike. Russia apparently lacks the technology to build a frameless bubble canopy.
> 
> In addition to stealth, a frameless bubble canopy provides an unobstructed view of the airspace.





Again with the frameless nonsense. Both B-2 and F-117 had no frameless canopy, in fact it wasn&#8217;t even a two piece canopy but canopies with multiple frames and they did quite well. The only real problem that the frame would make is visibility and or if the junction between the frame had a large gap that was at a 90 degree angle, the pak-fa has none.





Martian2 said:


> 3. *Tall fuselage behind pilot* - If you make a detailed comparison between the T-50 and the Su-30, you will find many similarities. The T-50 appears to be an evolutionary design of the Su-30 and not a completely new design.




This is ridiculous beyond words. By this logic the F-22 has to be a copy of the F-15 right? Beside the pak-fa and the SU-30 having a canopy that sits high on the upper fuselage that than recedes I see no similarities. The two design has different designs, one being canted and the other not being canted, one being thin, the other being wide. Do you see where I&#8217;m getting at.

By the way ladies and gentlemen the J-20 must be an upgraded J-10 because the canopies and rear fuselage are similar, so there you have it, according to Martian the J-20 is just an evolution of the J-10.



By the way look that the side profile of the J-20, it is bloated to say the least. Compared that the flat pak-fa side profile. What Martian is trying to do is twist things around by claiming that the pak-fa&#8217;s fuselage behind the canopy must be poor for stealth because it sits high, thus it must be a problem, yet if you compare the J-20 from the side you will see a fatty that makes the F-35 look thin and elegant.






Martian2 said:


> 4. *Engine fan blades in straight airduct* - To build a stealthy S-duct, the T-50 would have to be completely redesigned. Sukhoi chose the practical option of installing a linear engine pod, because a S-duct would crimp the payload area.




As I say every time, Boeing must be lying when they said that the frontal profile of the F-15 Silent Eagle can match the F-35. Again picking and choosing, if Boeing makes a claim that destroys your argument they must be liars if some no name blog makes a claim that makes the J-20 look good and or makes the pak-fa look bad that it has to be the truth.

Not only is Boeing liars but so are defense analysts. 






Martian2 said:


> Also, it is very difficult for maintenance to access a S-duct integrated into the fuselage of the fighter. To design a F-22 or J-20, it would require countless hours of CAD design to ensure that every part was accessible to maintenance personnel.




*Soviet aircraft from the 1960&#8217;s has S ducts*, don&#8217;t try to make it out as anything special that needs &#8216;CAD designs&#8217;.

A number of Soviet aircraft had S-ducts and it is nothing special. S-ducts are the enevidable result of jet engines being placed in the aircraft&#8217;s center mass. The further the intakes are apart from the center mass the more extreme the curvature will be. The SU-47 had S-ducts as well as a flat fuselage, Sukhoi chose not to incorporate either on the pak-fa.

This is reality not some fabricated opinionated rants about CAD and maintenance which you have zero proof of. Case in point, you failed&#8230;again, you failed to do your research, and you showed your bias views as well as sheer ignorance. Knowing you; you will just ignore the fact that Sukhoi has experience with S-ducts and even had S-ducts on the SU-47. Knowing you; you will shamelessly stick to your version of the story despite overwhelming evidence that proves you wrong.







Martian2 said:


> 5. *Vents reflect radar* - In the design of the T-50 and Su-30, the vents are important to shape the airflow and probably to achieve the proper pressure in the engines. Sukhoi cannot simply remove the vents to improve the stealthiness of the T-50.




That is interesting *both the YF-23 as well as the F-117 had vents*. Do you ever feel ashamed of lying?





Martian2 said:


> 7. *Gaps between airducts and fuselage* - The gaps between the airducts and fuselage cannot be eliminated, because there are vents along the side of the airducts that provide a vital aerodynamic function.





This is one example of Martian twisting and manipulating, *he claimed that the same gaps in the F-22 are okay for stealth*. And the question here is why would a gap between the fuselage and intake be problematic? As with the pak-fa, its &#8216;gap&#8217; is angled, that angle eventually recedes into the fuselage. Both gaps in the F-22 and pak-fa are designed to redirect EM energy from the lower fuselage.

As for the claim of Sukhoi not being able to eliminate the gaps between the intake and fuselage. Firstly who are you to say they can not? If Sukhoi is able to built an entire aircraft from the ground up I&#8217;m sure they can make a simple correction if they wish. I take it you have not seen the SU-27 prototype? They redesign the entire aircraft. Moreover, the SU-35 was radically redesigned internally. For instance they removed the entire air brake, redesigned the bulkheads or ribs around where the airbrake used to be and added a fuel tank with additional pluming.





Martian2 said:


> If you move the airduct and engine pod, the center of mass of the wing changes and it affects the stability of the plane.




Thanks, wanabe aerospace engineer but all aircraft can drop hundreds or thousands of lbs worth of ordinance from one side of the aircraft and still function just fine.





Martian2 said:


> The airduct size can't be changed, because the engines require a flow of a minimum cubic feet of air per second. The engine pods can't be reduced, because the combustion chamber needs a minimum size to achieve a desired thrust.




Of course just like the F-117 right? The F117&#8217;s designers put a restricted mesh grill in front of the intake, did they not? Clearly the F-117&#8217;s engines were restricted but here you claim that an engine needs a minimum amount of air to pass through it. Another made up claim busted.






Martian2 said:


> The other choice is to extend the fuselage downwards. This is not a simple proposition. This affects the rigidity of the entire fuselage. The fuselage ribs will be much larger (i.e. heavier) and it may compromise airworthiness. Preserving the same width, longer fuselage ribs are weaker and cracks may develop earlier.




Oh, like the J-20? Did not think that through very well did you?








Martian2 said:


> Russia lacks an advanced machine tool industry and stealthy saw-toothed doors are beyond her current technological capability.




I&#8217;m pretty sure Russia has more advanced machining tools that China, Russia imports machining tools from Germany which are considered the finest in the world. So once again your claim backfired&#8230;








Martian2 said:


> 11. *Lack of gold-colored transparent RAM for cockpit canopy* - There are pictures of F-22 and J-20 with gold-colored transparent RAM on their frameless cockpit canopies. To date, I have never seen a T-50 picture with similar transparent RAM.




A canopy does not need to be gold, example F-35 and SU-35. Further, the J-20 has no gold canopy. I can also find pictures of the F-16, Rafale, ect that appear to have gold hues but it is nothing more than good lighting, * atmospheric conditions*, and camera angle.






Martian2 said:


> Russian material science technology appears to have reached its limit. Russia may be capable of manufacturing opaque RAM for the plane in general. However, in two years, Sukhoi has not been able to produce transparent gold-colored RAM.





Again a canopy does not need to be gold, and if you did your homework the *Mig-31 has a gold canopy *and even the A-6 had one. One again fail on your part.

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## DARKY

ptldM3 said:


> This is ridiculous beyond words. By this logic the F-22 has to be a copy of the F-15 right? Beside the pak-fa and the SU-30 having a canopy that sits high on the upper fuselage that than recedes I see no similarities. The two design has different designs, one being canted and the other not being canted, one being thin, the other being wide. Do you see where I&#8217;m getting at.
> 
> By the way ladies and gentlemen the J-20 must be an upgraded J-10 because the canopies and rear fuselage are similar, so there you have it, according to Martian the J-20 is just an evolution of the J-10.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way look that the side profile of the J-20, it is bloated to say the least. Compared that the flat pak-fa side profile. What Martian is trying to do is twist things around by claiming that the pak-fa&#8217;s fuselage behind the canopy must be poor for stealth because it sits high, thus it must be a problem, yet if you compare the J-20 from the side you will see a fatty that makes the F-35 look thin and elegant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I say every time, Boeing must be lying when they said that the frontal profile of the F-15 Silent Eagle can match the F-35. Again picking and choosing, if Boeing makes a claim that destroys your argument they must be liars if some no name blog makes a claim that makes the J-20 look good and or makes the pak-fa look bad that it has to be the truth.
> 
> Not only is Boeing liars but so are defense analysts.



I don't Know If he know about this...










And this...










And this...

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## kingdurgaking

@ptldM3 i guess your points have been repeated again and again while Martian lives in delusion while he is brainwashed j-20 is an alien while others T-50 is not, so how ever you and already been argued by lot of us in the past it is waste of time.. So let us all wait for the production version of T-50 to come out, it will definitely shut his mouth once an exercise is been carried out


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## Martian2

*Su-30 is not stealthy. Therefore T-50/Pak-Fa is not stealthy.*

Everyone agrees the Su-30 is not stealthy. In the following picture, I have identified 10 important non-stealth features of the Su-30. Interestingly, the T-50/Pak-Fa has the exact same 10 non-stealth features.

It seems to me there are only two logical choices. Either you agree with me that the T-50/Pak-Fa is not stealthy. Or you can make the incredible claim that both the T-50 and Su-30 are stealthy. I leave the choice to you.






Su-30 is not stealthy. Here are 10 non-stealth features.





In an interesting coincidence, the T-50/Pak-Fa shares all ten Su-30 non-stealth features.

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## sancho

Martian2 said:


> Su-30 is not stealthy. Therefore T-50/Pak-Fa is not stealthy.



Post reported for continuous derailing of the thread and obvious trolling!


*Back to topic again, Pak Fa's "Optical-electronic systems":*

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## angeldemon_007

*No disrespect to anyone, i am not an aeronautical engineer and neither i am someone who is pretending to know about 5th generation aircrafts but i have few doubts, please indulge with me the other senior members like sancho, kinetic etc.*

@Martian2

According to the photograph you posted above...
1) Protruding IRST : Well in F35 it is much more hidden and F35's IRST (AN/AAQ-40) is no doubt advanced but you cannot see it on top near canopy because in F35 IRST is located near chin. But you are right it has to be little bit hidden or just for show Russia should also install their IRST somewhere near chin were fans can't see in the photographs.

2) Metal-Frame Canopy : Is it metal ? You know it can be a composites or may even be high strength plastic (there are plastics which have strength close to steal).

3) Same round and tall Su-30 Fuselage : 
Are you saying it is okay for F22 to have such fuselage and not PakFa ?




I hope you know that frontal RCS of fuselage of both F22 and PakFa will be almost same. PakFa fuselage resembles more like YF-23 which if i am not wrong has lower RCS than F22.








Its just a prototype and considering there will be 14 of those, this can be resolved later but i personally think Russian might not make this particular structural change and may reduce RCS somewhere else or by some other way. Remember ultimately goal is to reduce RCS and the way US has design F22-F35, its not the only way.

4) Engine fan blades in straight airduct reflect radar. Need S-duct redesign : And i suppose you are saying this because you have the whole 3-d view and x-ray vision of inside the aircraft unlike me who can see only one side of the aircraft in the picture. I suppose you mean something like this.






Its a picture from a t50 presentation which you will know if you even try to read this forum itself. 
There's alot of stuff on this forum itself, biggest one are the US stealth aircraft programs are based on the research of a Russian scientist. Russians know what is needed to make 5th generation aircraft like the ones made by US, they will be using different things to achieve the same level of RCS as US aircrafts as expressed by the head of university which is responsible for stealth research.
Also do you know the VTOL technology for F35 is also Russian. Also what the heck is all about this 2-D thrust vectoring business ??? I mean people think that unless PakfA changes to 2-d nozzle with serrated ends it won't be a 5th gen aircraft. Well work on Russian 5th gen aircrafts started in late eighties and early nineties and Russians rejected a 2-d .ozzle 

5) Metal engine pod reflect radar : This shows that its a prototype not the final aircraft.

6) Round shape reflects radar to emitter. Need angular airduct cladding to deflect radar : I hope you know this is not the engine for PakFa, the final engine will be ready by 2015. Also the portion of engine you are pointing at is round in every engine as far as i know except that it is hidden in aircraft body and not left open like in this prototype which i think will be changed or atleast they will put some kind of coating on it.

7) Lack of stealthy saw-toothed edges on bay doors : As i said its just the 3rd prototype and if they put RAM coating or radar aborbing material there the RCS will definitely be reduced there. In short there's not just one way to reduce the RCS. Also i personally don't give a **** about bay doors. I mean who is gonna open the bay door in the middle of the flight ? They are only open while landing and take-off and at that time the protection of the aircraft is on the SAM's installed at the air-base (correct me if i am wrong).

8) Venst reflect Radar : Really !!!! And how how can you tell ? Don't tell me because in the photograph the side view of PakFa doesn't looks like F35 or F22 because of different color scheme and little bit difference in structural geometry.

9) Uneven heights of underside reflect radar : You are right to some extent here, i hope some changes are made but i doubt Russian aircraft manufacturer are idiots and they are definitely not the fanboys like us. They will do something about it and it may not be the way US did. Also i would like to say that this uneven height of the underside might not be that big as it appears on the photographs like this one.

10) Gaps between airducts and fuselage reflect radar : I doubt it as there will radar absorbing material.






But who am i to say, i am not an aeronautical engineer and neither am i someone who is part of any 5th generation aircraft.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as Chinese J-20 is concerned. The aircraft design is good but a 5th generation aircraft is 5th gen because of its avionics, radar, engine, EW suite, various external sensors etc. which i don't think Chinese have able to build and so right now i have serious doubts but Chinese are hard workers.

---------- Post added at 04:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 AM ----------

Hey Sancho,

Nice post, i guess !!! Do you understand what is written on that poster ??? If yes please translate....

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## ptldM3

Look the insecure J-20 cheerleader is back.



Martian2 said:


> *Su-30 is not stealthy. Therefore T-50/Pak-Fa is not stealthy.*





Your are a plain joker. Many of the same features that are on the J-10 can also be found on the J-20, so let me use your moronic tactic. *The J-10 is not stealthy. Therefore the J-20 is not stealthy.*







Martian2 said:


> In an interesting coincidence, the T-50/Pak-Fa shares all ten Su-30 non-stealth features.



In an interesting coincidence the J-20 shares many of the none stealthy features of the J-10.


Let me stoop to Martians level because that is all he knows



The J-20 is a copy of the J-10 (according to Martians theory). Martian concludes that similarities between the pak-fa and Flanker definately means that the pak-fa is a copy of the Flanker, even if geometrically they are completely different.

Martian's logic:

J-10 has rear fins, so does J-20
J-10 has DSI, so does J-20.
J-10 has canards , so does J-20.
J-10 has engine curvature, so does J-20.
J-10 has nose enttenna, so does J-20.
J-10 is a delta, so is J-20.
J-10 strait fuselage aft of canopy, J-20 same feature.

*Therefore the J-20 is a copy of the J-10* (Martian's theory) and has many none-stealthy feature of the J-10 (Again Martian's theory). 

And since Martian enjoys talking about bumps, curves, and so called edge alignment let take a look at the J-20. Take note that many of the highlighted areas on the J-20 are unstealthy, according to Martian, but because the J-20 is Chinese it is excused from the same rules.

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Hey Sancho,
> 
> Nice post, i guess !!! Do you understand what is written on that poster ??? If yes please translate....



I would say the same as on the right side in english, they just have different designations for the same systems I guess. Btw, the F35 has no real IRST, that's why the EOTS is located at the chin. It's an improved Sniper targeting pod, integrated into the fighter, which has some IRST functions, the main aim is guiding A2G weapons though.


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## angeldemon_007

> Btw, the F35 has no real IRST, that's why the EOTS is located at the chin.


I wrote the name also (AN/AAQ-40). This EOTS is doing the job of IRST.


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## Martian2

Technical reply to issues raised by Angeldemon_007.

1. Su-30 and T-50/Pak-Fa IRST creates a radar signature, because AESA radar is X-band. X-band wavelength is 2.5 (one inch) to 4cm. Also, IRST is a round sphere and not a shaped nose (e.g. duck bill shape/continuous curvature or faceted/diamond shape).

Therefore, X-band radar will detect the Su-30/Pak-Fa IRST. Hence, the Su-30/Pak-Fa is not stealthy.

Citation: HowStuffWorks "How does stealth technology work?"

"*How does stealth technology work?*
...
Most conventional aircraft have a rounded shape. This shape makes them aerodynamic, but it also creates a very efficient radar reflector. The round shape means that no matter where the radar signal hits the plane, some of the signal gets reflected back:
..."





Three posts ago, Gambit was arguing the T-50/Pak-Fa IRST probe is like a two-dimensional saw-toothed edge and is therefore stealthy. Do you agree with him? Or does the T-50/Pak-Fa IRST probe look like an excellent round radar reflector to you?

2. Look at the picture above with the rivets. Does it look like a metal-framed canopy to you? Even China's advanced materials science doesn't have the high-strength plastics that you are theorizing. Everyone has to climb the same tech ladder.

The F-22 uses a frameless bubble cockpit canopy. China also developed a frameless bubble cockpit canopy for the J-20. It is highly unlikely that Russia could just leapfrog past the next technological step of a framles bubble cockpit canopy.

3. Look at your picture again (see below). I have drawn the surface area of the fuselage behind the pilot. The T-50/Pak-Fa is much taller and occupies a lot of area. This will strongly reflect radar at many angles.

If you look at other pictures of the F-22 and J-20, you will notice they use continuous curvature to shape the area behind their cockpit canopy. However, when you look at pictures of the T-50/Pak-Fa, you will see two large triangular slabs from the side.





Compare the small surface area behind the F-22 pilot to the large surface area behind the T-50/Pak-Fa pilot.

4. RULE #1 - never look at cartoons in performing an analysis. Let me show you real photographs of the T-50/Pak-Fa. All of them show there is no S-duct on the T-50/Pak-Fa.





From the midpoint of the airduct to the midpoint of the engine, it is a straight line. There is no curved duct. The T-50/Pak-Fa engine layout is identical to the Su-30.





From a lateral view, we will once again draw a line from the midpoint of the airduct to the midpoint of the engine, it is clearly a straight line. There is no curved duct.

5. It has been two years and Sukhoi's T-50/Pak-Fa third prototype looks exactly like the first prototype externally. Unless Sukhoi performs a radical redesign (which increasingly appears unlikely), a straight airduct will mean the T-50/Pak-Fa will be almost as non-stealthy as a Su-30.

When the enemy radar waves bounce off the single-crystal metallic engine fan blades on the T-50/Pak-Fa, the F-22 or J-20 radar screen will light up like a Christmas tree.

6. It has been two years and Sukhoi hasn't been able to wrap the T-50/Pak-Fa engines in RAM cladding. As more years pass, it becomes increasingly unlikely that Sukhoi can fix this problem. I believe it is a cooling issue.

If we keep seeing this exposed metal-engine problem on the next few prototypes then it means Sukhoi can't change the design due to a likely cooling need for the engines.

7. When the T-50/Pak-Fa or Su-30 bay doors are closed during flight, they lie flush against the fuselage. However, due to the non-saw-toothed edges, enemy radar will reflect off the large discontinuities. The F-22, F-35, and J-20 all have saw-toothed bay doors to minimize this RCS problem.

8. Vents are not stealthy, because of radar scattering from edge diffraction.

9. An uneven underside is not stealthy. It creates many new angles for a radar reflection. Australia Air Power wrote a detailed report and criticized the modified F-35 for the "lumps and bumps" along its underside. The original F-35 prototype had a clean and flat underside like the F-22 and J-20. 

Due to the need for air-to-air missiles with the development of the J-20, the F-35 underside is a mess and it is less stealthy.

Reference: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-01.html

10. When an enemy radar hits the "back wall" (or intersection between fuselage and airduct), it will produce a nice radar return. This is poor stealth design. This problem exists on both the Su-30 and T-50/Pak-Fa.


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## ptldM3

Martian2 said:


> Technical reply to issues raised by Angeldemon_007.
> 
> 1. Su-30 and T-50/Pak-Fa IRST creates a radar signature, because AESA radar is X-band. X-band wavelength is 2.5 (one inch) to 4cm. Also, IRST is a round sphere and not a shaped nose (e.g. duck bill shape/continuous curvature or faceted/diamond shape).
> 
> Therefore, X-band radar will detect the Su-30/Pak-Fa IRST. Hence, the Su-30/Pak-Fa is not stealthy.
> 
> Citation: (insert here)



Thank you, for confirming that all of those rounded surfaces on the J-20 are 'not stealthy'. 

I know what is comming, 'the J-20 Mighty Dragon has stealthy shaping that is covered in RAM'

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## ptldM3

Martian2 said:


> Compare the small surface area behind the F-22 pilot to the large surface area behind the T-50/Pak-Fa pilot.



Goodness gracious, you are a desperate clown. Now compare the surface area of the *stabalizers* or the rest of the fuselage. Like it or not the J-20 has a bloated fuselage and its the largest of all three aircraft so it has the most surface area.

Compare the entire fuselage, and by this i also mean the nose and vertical stabs. It's clear that the J-20 is the longest aircraft and the thickes or most bloated aircraft.

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## Martian2

ptldM3 said:


> Goodness gracious, you are a desperate clown. Now compare the surface area of the *stabalizers* or the rest of the fuselage. Like it or not the J-20 has a bloated fuselage and its the largest of all three aircraft so it has the most surface area.
> 
> Compare the entire fuselage, and by this i also mean the nose and vertical stabs. It's clear that the J-20 is the longest aircraft and the thickes or most bloated aircraft.



Vertical stabilizers are canted and reflect radar away from the emitter. Your argument is not relevant.


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## ptldM3

Martian2 said:


> Stabilizers are canted and reflect radar away from emitter. Your argument is not relevant.



This is why you should be dismissed. Even if a surface is canted it can still emit returns via the surface itself and by this I mean any small imperfects. To further trash your argument the vertical stabilizers are a moving control surface, with that you not only have to surface itself but the control mechanisms such as rudders. You also *contradict yourself*, you made a claim the the *pak-fa has more surface area*, yet when i mentioned the rudder *you* *claimed* that the surface area is *not important *because the vertical stabalizers are canted. Lets look at it more logically, what will have a greater return a 1x1 steel plate or a 10x10 steel plate? The only person's argument that is not relevant is yours.

And here tell everyone which aircraft has the largest surface area. The sad part is that the photo of the pak-fa is taken much closer yet it is still has less surface area.

Looks like your trolling backfired.

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## DrSomnath999

angeldemon_007 said:


> As far as Chinese J-20 is concerned. The aircraft design is good but a 5th generation aircraft is 5th gen because of its avionics, radar, engine, EW suite, various external sensors etc. which i don't think Chinese have able to build and so right now i have serious doubts but Chinese are hard workers.


well those are more important things compare to stealth as Stealth doent mean the plane is invincible but reduced EM/IR 
radiations & when u fight with another stealthy plane then all these things count ,which is more stealthy becomes irrelevant .Got it


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## Martian2

*T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is not stealthy.*

Do you see the giant radar return (see top diagram below) from a one-foot metal sphere? The T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is approximately a foot in diameter and should have a similar radar return.

How far away do you think an AWACS can detect the T-50/Pak-Fa IRST? The IRST is clearly not stealthy and it is terrible stealth design to have a round sphere on the T-50/Pak-Fa nose.





Measuring radar cross sections in an anechoic chamber is a fundamental part of validating radar measurements. The above images show radar cross section measurements made in the anechoic chamber of the University of Oklahoma Radar Innovations Laboratory. Data of a live tethered bat were collected using a low-power X-band pulsed Doppler radar. A 12-inch metal sphere was used for calibration. Results are shown in the plots. Similar data are being collected for other species.

Reference: Animal Migration Research, Jeff Kelly Lab


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## DrSomnath999

Martian2 said:


> *T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is not stealthy.*
> 
> Do you see the giant radar return (see top diagram below) from a one-foot metal sphere? The T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is approximately a foot in diameter and should have a similar radar return.


well martian i think this is the most important avionics a 5th gen fighter must have as more future wars would be fought within 
visual range as stealth planes comes in future wars .Remember it is very difficult to achieve complete suppresion of IR 
signature no matter how a stealthy a plane .So u can compromise some stealth for it as it is definiltely worth of having it in 
your plane.


ofcourse IRST can also be gold coated to reduce RCS 






BTW Excuse me Martian the article states it a complete metal sphere, but IRST frontal part is not completely metal infact it is metal + 
composite fiber

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## kingdurgaking

Martian2 said:


> Martian words



One word for martian... Definitely you are fan boy.. you accepted it as a prototype... A prototype doesnt need stealth coatings and protruding stuff also works fine.. Even the Americans havent doubted much of the T-50 stealth as you have been doubting.. I guess Russians are following a good approach to test there aircraft.. it is not necessary to have all things while testing the aerodynamics.. definitely which the Chinese are lacking ...dont you think Russians are definitely intelligent than you guys?


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## sancho

Martian2 said:


> Citation: HowStuffWorks "How does stealth technology work?"
> 
> "How does stealth technology work?
> ...
> Most conventional aircraft have *a rounded shape. This shape makes them aerodynamic, but it also creates a very efficient radar reflector*. The round shape means that no matter where the radar signal hits the plane, some of the signal gets reflected back:





Martian2 said:


>


 

If we take your own sources to account, these rounded shapings are efficient radar refletors and working against the general stealth shapings:







Compared to:








And as you pointed out with your second source, the size plays a big role as well and what offers a bigger surface for radar reflections?












 Simply hilarious how your own sources constantly prove your claims to be wrong.

Can any Mod please stop this now? It's getting ridiculous!

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## saurabh

sancho said:


>








The round structures are covered by the intakes.
Though still there are orbs under the wings.


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## sancho

saurabh said:


> The round structures are covered by the intakes.
> Though still there are orbs under the wings.



No, they are slightly in front of them to direct the airflow and improve the engine performance, that's why the round form is useful, but from the the frontal point of view (similar to T50s IRST), they are perfectly visible and according to Martian2s sources, will increase radar reflections.


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## saurabh

sancho said:


> No, they are slightly in front of them to direct the airflow and improve the engine performance, that's why the round form is useful, but from the the frontal point of view (similar to T50s IRST), they are perfectly visible and according to Martian2s sources, will increase radar reflections.



From the side, the visible part is not round. Though the round structure is visible from the front, the curvature doesn't faces forward.


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## lamlap

T50 is definately not a 5th gen fighter, just a money-cheating tools


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## sms

sancho said:


> If we take your own sources to account, these rounded shapings are efficient radar refletors and working against the general stealth shapings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as you pointed out with your second source, the size plays a big role as well and what offers a bigger surface for radar reflections?
> 
> 
> Simply hilarious how your own sources constantly prove your claims to be wrong.
> 
> Can any Mod please stop this now? It's getting ridiculous!



Those big spheres under wing reminds us that Chinese engineering capability has hit the limit and are no more capable of producing compact and powerful actuators for their stealth plane and compromising the whole purpose of it's existence.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> Vertical stabilizers are canted and reflect radar away from the emitter. Your argument is not relevant.


The vertical stabs are canted to avoid the 90 deg corner reflector structure when they are in the same section (tail) as the horizontal stabs. An aircraft is a dynamic body so every surface on this complex body have a potential of being a direct reflector, and angled reflector, or a surface wave inducer, depending on the incident angle. But it is because of the 90 deg corner reflector structure that is the reason for canting the vertical stabs. Your argument is completely wrong.

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## ptldM3

Martian2 said:


> *T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is not stealthy.*
> 
> Do you see the giant radar return (see top diagram below) from a one-foot metal sphere? *The T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is approximately a foot in diameter *and should have a similar radar return.




It's about half that, get your eyes checked. This is a rediculous as you claiming that the canards on the J-20 are 3 feet long. And you cute picture tells us nothing. Any object will have a spike in rcs--especially a polished metal one.



Martian2 said:


> How far away do you think an AWACS can detect the T-50/Pak-Fa IRST? The IRST is clearly not stealthy and it is terrible stealth design to have a round sphere on the T-50/Pak-Fa nose.



How far can a awacs detect the J-20 with all those round spheres? Unlike the pak-fa those round pods under the wings are at least one foot in diameter, probably close to two feet.







sancho said:


> If we take your own sources to account, these rounded shapings are efficient radar refletors and working against the general stealth shapings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as you pointed out with your second source, the size plays a big role as well and what offers a bigger surface for radar reflections?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simply hilarious how your own sources constantly prove your claims to be wrong.
> 
> Can any Mod please stop this now? It's getting ridiculous!



This is why he can not be taken seriously, it was bad enough when he claimed that the J-20 canards were only 3 feet long, but even worse when he claimed that the pak-fa's irst is 1 foot in diameter, and now (as usual) his comments backfired on him, just like they backfire many times before.

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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> *T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is not stealthy.*
> 
> Do you see the giant radar return (see top diagram below) from a one-foot metal sphere? The T-50/Pak-Fa IRST is approximately a foot in diameter and should have a similar radar return.
> 
> How far away do you think an AWACS can detect the T-50/Pak-Fa IRST? The IRST is clearly not stealthy and it is terrible stealth design to have a round sphere on the T-50/Pak-Fa nose.


How is it 'giant'? At what distance from the radar? Your argument failed spectacularly when it is well known that RCS is a variable figure based upon distance, power, and freq employed. From this respect, the RCS value is a 'fictitious' argument.

The reason why a sphere is usually used as a calibration body is because the sphere produce the most consistent reflected energy level regardless of incident angle, not because it set some kind of standard for 'stealth'.

Here is something way back in 1967 to support my argument...

Radar Signature Analysis, February 1967 Electronics World - RF Cafe


> Radar Signature Analysis *February 1967* Electronics World
> 
> Since *a sphere looks like a sphere no matter how you view it, its radar cross-section will be a constant level with no variation because of different aspect angles.* The cone and cylinder have more complicated returns because the strength of the echo will depend on the angle or aspect at which the beam strikes the object.



If the transmission is changed in anyway, such a change in freq or amplitude, the sphere is brought back in again to establish a new baseline.

But there is something call the '10-lambda rule' that will completely invalidate the calibration if the tester is not careful...






*REGARDLESS* of the freq employed, if the sphere's diameter is less than 10 lambda (wavelength) then the 'creeping wave' effect occurs. What happens is that a portion of the surface wave travels around the sphere and added its energy to that of the initial specular reflection. If the sphere is further smaller, we can have a pulsating radar echo from the sphere due to alternating constructive and destructive interference because the creeping wave continues to wrap around the sphere.

If the sphere is greater than 10-lambda, meaning its diameter is 11 or 12 times the wavelength under test, then there is no creeping wave effect, only leaky waves whose energy will be absorbed by the chamber walls that are lined with absorbers. This is why the 1 ft sphere is usually used, because its diameter is much larger than most wavelengths employed by civilian and military radars, enabling the tester to rapidly changes freqs without much cost.

So if a much more complex body than a sphere is introduced, rotating the complex body will reveal which aspect angle will produce a matching reflected energy level as the sphere's, which aspect angle produce the highest, and which aspect angle will produce the lowest. The sphere is used to establish a reference point for a *COMPLEX* body, not to establish a threshold for 'stealth'.

Just in case anyone think I made up this '10-lambda rule'...






Look at the 'Introduction' paragraph. Look at the authors' names and where they came from.



Martian2 said:


> Measuring radar cross sections in an anechoic chamber is a fundamental part of validating radar measurements.


So have *YOU* done any? I have.

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## ptldM3

gambit said:


> So have *YOU* done any? I have.



He uses the trusty eyeball test, remeber the J-20 looks like an F-22 so it has to have the same rcs and the pak-fa has to have a higher rcs than the Rafale because of its engines.

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## sms

*Those big spheres under wing reminds us that Chinese engineering capability has hit the limit and are no more capable of producing compact and powerful actuators for their stealth plane and compromising the whole purpose of it's existence. *

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## Black Widow

ptldM3 said:


> He uses the trusty eyeball test, remeber the J-20 looks like an F-22 so it has to have the same rcs and the pak-fa has to have a higher rcs than the Rafale because of its engines.




_I am pissed off of Pak-FA vs J20 argument, hence stopped participating in such posts_. What I got to know that PAK-FA is not stealth coz
1. Its russian
2. It doesn't come in black
3. It has visible Engine blade


and the funniest part is 
4. It doesn't look like stealth

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## lamlap

Pak-FA just a plane for cheating Indian money by Russia, wake up Indian friends


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## danger007

lamlap said:


> Pak-FA just a plane for cheating Indian money by Russia, wake up Indian friends




OHH are you james bond-007... how you got that information....mate

---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------




lamlap said:


> Pak-FA just a plane for cheating Indian money by Russia, wake up Indian friends




OHH are you james bond-007... how you got that information....mate


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## ARCHON

sms said:


> *Those big spheres under wing reminds us that Chinese engineering capability has hit the limit and are no more capable of producing compact and powerful actuators for their stealth plane and compromising the whole purpose of it's existence. *



the plane looks huge... doesnt even need radars... to spot it,,

some guy from mars saying stealthy.. lol..


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## White Lightning

*Russia to Increase Number of 5G Fighters in Test Flights*






The number of Russia's Sukhoi T-50 5th generation fighters involved in test flights will be increased to 14 from three by 2015, Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin told RIA Novosti on Monday.

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## deepakclaw

I didnt understand anything in the last pages too much technical stufff....anyway its just 3rd prototype there is still a long way to go ...

su 27 prototype




final product


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
WTF ??? Are you sure about that ??? There's huge difference between the above two pictures.


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## rockstarIN

yes,,,it is true...there were weight problem with early prototypes.


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## DrSomnath999

*COMPARISION OF SU 30 MKI AIR INTAKES & PAKFA AIR INTAKE *

*1) SU 30 MKI AIR INTAKE:*




one can clearly see the entire circumferance of Engine compressor face & it has no radar blockers 

*2) PAKFA AIR INTAKE:*




now see the pakfa air intake only 1/3rd of engine compressor face is visible 

& one can see radar blockers 





SO it's defintely clear that PAK FA air intake would reflect considerably less 1/3 rd of radar waves as reflected by SU 30 mki air
intake .


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> *[
> 
> 
> 
> *


*

These pics are fakes and the T50 currently don't use radar blockers.*


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> These pics are fakes and the T50 currently don't use radar blockers.


well not sure about the pics but r u sure that T50 dont use radar blockers


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> well not sure about the pics but r u sure that T50 dont use radar blockers



T50 so far uses just a version of the Su 35 engine and the main purpose is testing the aerodynamics, while with any futher step more systems will be added. Radar blockers will only be added with one of the last prototypes, when the fuselage and engines will be changed.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> T50 so far uses just a version of the Su 35 engine and the main purpose is testing the aerodynamics, while with any futher step more systems will be added. Radar blockers will only be added with one of the last prototypes, when the fuselage and engines will be changed.


now how can u be so sure that radar blockers would be added to last prototypes or when new engines will be placed


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## bdslph

ARCHON said:


> the plane looks huge... doesnt even need radars... to spot it,,
> 
> some guy from mars saying stealthy.. lol..



are those camera or something under the wing and i dont think it is the final product of the plane


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## typhoon77

> now how can u be so sure that radar blockers would be added to last prototypes or when new engines will be placed


 Its common sense. Why would you need to install the radar blockers when the engines they are designed for aren't even completed? The current prototypes are testing the aerodynamics of the plane. T-50-4 is rumored to have the radar and other sensors installed (maybe EODASki). Go back in this thread and you will see that this has been discussed in depth. Actually go to the PAKFA thread in the keypub forum you can find all the info you want there.


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## DrSomnath999

typhoon77 said:


> Its common sense. Why would you need to install the radar blockers when the engines they are designed for aren't even completed? The current prototypes are testing the aerodynamics of the plane. T-50-4 is rumored to have the radar and other sensors installed (maybe EODASki). Go back in this thread and you will see that this has been discussed in depth. Actually go to the PAKFA thread in the keypub forum you can find all the info you want there.


perhaps u r right Same thing applies for ram coating also as why would russia invest money on ram coating on prototype like J20 .But does SU 35 engine doesnt have radar blockers???
ofcourse key pub is more quality forum for all these infos .Thanks


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## DrSomnath999

*117S*













*from key pub*
The PAK-FA saga Episode 12.0 - Page 28 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums






well i cant say exactly it has radar blockers or not ,but is this PSed


----------



## DARKY

PAK FA uses Item 117 IMO.. which is a direct evolution of Al-41.. while Item 117C/S is a derivative based on Al-31FN.


----------



## DrSomnath999

DARKY said:


> PAK FA uses Item 117 IMO.. which is a direct evolution of Al-41.. while Item 117C/S is a derivative based on Al-31FN.


pakfa would use 117 but current protype uses 117S which is a derivative of AL -41F , i think next or 5th prototype may have 117 
which may have radar blocker or not that needs to be seen


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## kingdurgaking

DrSomnath999 said:


> pakfa would use 117 but current protype uses 117S which is a derivative of AL -41F , i think next or 5th prototype may have 117
> which may have radar blocker or not that needs to be seen



The Engine might even come out during production stage... and PAK-FA last prototype (i.e.) 7 th & 8th one i guess will have all the stealth features like LO, Radar blockers etc..


----------



## DrSomnath999

kingdurgaking said:


> The Engine might even come out during production stage... and PAK-FA last prototype (i.e.) 7 th & 8th one i guess will have all the stealth features like LO, Radar blockers etc..


lets hope so


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> But does SU 35 engine doesnt have radar blockers???



No Su 35 don't have radar blockers, it reduced the RCS to some extend by using newer materials compared to the older Flankers, but is far away from having a low RCS compared to modern fighters.



DrSomnath999 said:


> pakfa would use 117 but current protype uses 117S which is a derivative of AL -41F , i think next or 5th prototype may have 117



The Russians are confusing with their engines designations, but the real NG engine is not even developed now and awaits Indian funding. The engines the T50 use now, are derivates of the Su 35 engine, which is more capable, but still based on the AL 31. I find it very interesting that although so much time has gone by since the first flight of T50, or even the agreement on FGFA, that till now there are not even windtunnel models of the final Pak Fa / FGFA.
We have the base airframe which will remain the same, but anything besides the cockpit section and the wings could be pretty different later (new air intake, fuselage, radar blockers, engines, maybe position, TVC, coatings, materials, even sensors), which shows how less we know about it so far.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> The Russians are confusing with their engines designations, but the real NG engine is not even developed now and awaits Indian funding.


well the russian stated that 117 is the designation of PAKFA engine i think it would be installed in indian FFGA also
Rivals Join For Next Stage Of PAK FA Engine | AVIATION WEEK
but what is product 129





Lenta.ru:


sancho said:


> The engines the T50 use now, are derivates of the Su 35 engine, which is more capable, but still based on the AL 31. I find it very interesting that although so much time has gone by since the first flight of T50, or even the agreement on FGFA, that till now there are not even windtunnel models of the final Pak Fa / FGFA.


i didnt get u what more final models they would make , do u mean they would make another final new model like F22 from YF 23 
is it ???



sancho said:


> We have the base airframe which will remain the same, but anything besides the cockpit section and the wings could be pretty different later (new air intake, fuselage, radar blockers, engines, maybe position, TVC, coatings, materials, even sensors), which shows how less we know about it so far.


Hmm so u are becoming speculative like me  ok i have also right to be speculative like u

well it is confirmed it is going to be 2 seater nothing more to debate here




but rest thing u said 
1) new air intake : well not sure but it is canted & exposes only 1/3rd of engine's compresor face compare to su 30 mki'
2) fuselarge : will change for sure for FFGA as obviously 2 seater plane but minor i think
3) radar blockers : of course they have to use or else no way it can hide the compressor blades completely
4) Engine : definitely if u trust the sources saturn 117 (supercruise engine}
5) postion : not sure 
6)TVC : sure that too 3 axis 
7) coating: of course but in final production model , why would they waste money on ram coating on protype , may be new gen
ram coating .Also they would use it air intake pathway of the engine to absorb scattered radar waves 
8) materials : of course composites would be used extensively india would use it's composites experience on LCA on pakfa
9) Sensors: well we can expect foreign sensors like french EW suites / israeli systems but india should codevelop with THales
latest EW suite like Next GEn spectra system 

But bro what about development on plasma stealth is it fiction or for real ?????


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> i didnt get u what more final models they would make , do u mean they would make another final new model like F22 from YF 23
> is it ???



Of course, the T50 prototypes are just base models, but the final version is still about to come, just like YF 22 is different to the current F22.




DrSomnath999 said:


> Hmm so u are becoming speculative like me



Partially, because too less reliable information are available so far, especially about FGFA!




DrSomnath999 said:


> well it is confirmed it is going to be 2 seater nothing more to debate here








Well you actually just showed where the debate starts  A straighter twin seat config like in your pic, or this config, that is similar to MKI again:









DrSomnath999 said:


> 1) new air intake : well not sure but it is canted & exposes only 1/3rd of engine's compresor face compare to su 30 mki



You can't compare it to MKI or other current Flankers, because the design is too different. The engine is inverted to the airframe and angled downwards as well. The air intakes are shaped in the front and has DSI like provisions, not to forget that the gear will be folded into the intake, not upwards to the wing, like it is the case for MKI.




DrSomnath999 said:


> 5) postion : not sure



That was my speculative part, because I still see a chance that the final version could have a similar solution like the YF 23 (engine face would be located straight again and above the wing mainly, with the intake below)




DrSomnath999 said:


> 6)TVC : sure that too 3 axis



Completelly unsure, 2D similar to F22 is possible as well and maybe even more likely:






The thrust deflection to the sides is hardly possible without hitting the fins.




DrSomnath999 said:


> But bro what about development on plasma stealth is it fiction or for real ?????



Who knows, we don't get every infos for sure and it will remain a myth like active cancellation of SPECTRA.


----------



## angeldemon_007

> Sensors: well we can expect foreign sensors like french EW suites / israeli systems but india should codevelop with THales
> latest EW suite like Next GEn spectra system


We have developed a very good EW system in collaboration with Cassidian. It will be used on all our upgrades and future aircrafts. For instance Mi29 UPG will carry this.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Of course, the T50 prototypes are just base models, but the final version is still about to come, just like YF 22 is different to the current F22.


lets hopes so ,
may they come out with something special , but i dont expect any radical changes. Lets see in future what happens 




sancho said:


> Partially, because too less reliable information are available so far, especially about FGFA!


i think they are concentrating more on pakfa than FFGa at the moment right now .




sancho said:


> Well you actually just showed where the debate starts A straighter twin seat config like in your pic, or this config, that is similar to MKI again:



i didnt get u properly i dont find any differnce betwenn the two apart from 1 metal frame in the canopy between the 2 pilots 
in the paralay pic of FFGA u posted 



sancho said:


> You can't compare it to MKI or other current Flankers, because the design is too different. The engine is inverted to the airframe and angled downwards as well. The air intakes are shaped in the front and has DSI like provisions, not to forget that the gear will be folded into the intake, not upwards to the wing, like it is the case for MKI.


yes i know but i had compare it as to prove that MKI inlet & pakfa inlet are different as some fools say it as same  
one thing u should notice that these air intake of pakfa has n advantage .
SEE here the F22 & J20 cant carry external weapons below the fuselarge they have to carry it under their wings








Mean while pakfa can carry external weapons below fuselarge thanks to air intake which is not is same plane with fuselarge 
below like F22 & J20




So having a radar blocker along with reduced exposure of engine compressor face coupled with ram coating on air intake would
help reduction of much radar waves from engine's blades through air intake 





sancho said:


> That was my speculative part, because I still see a chance that the final version could have a similar solution like the YF 23 (engine face would be located straight again and above the wing mainly, with the intake below)


sorry i cant comment on this until we see anything from our own eyes





sancho said:


> Completelly unsure, 2D similar to F22 is possible as well and maybe even more likely:


this is the only speculative part that i am sure the russians would prefer 3 axis TVC as in sources they had stated they would 
build 3 AXIS tvc engines for PAK fA . IMO i think russians wont compromise manuverabilty for stealth


sancho said:


> The thrust deflection to the sides is hardly possible without hitting the fins.


 i dont think so it has sufficent spaces around the fin for movement of TVC nozzles 










sancho said:


> Who knows, we don't get every infos for sure and it will remain a myth like active cancellation of SPECTRA.


lolllzz , i hope DARE 2 is nt watching this orelse he would have bashed u like anything for saying a word against spectra 



angeldemon_007 said:


> We have developed a very good EW system in collaboration with Cassidian. It will be used on all our upgrades and future aircrafts. For instance Mi29 UPG will carry this.


but we can cooperate with THALES as they have some cutting edge avionics & ECM like they have developed laser based DIRCM 
for IR guided missiles which would be fitted with DDM NG on rafale F3 version


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> but i dont expect any radical changes



Only the fuselage / engine part will be very different from what we see now.




DrSomnath999 said:


> i didnt get u properly i dont find any differnce



Compare MKI with EF or Rafale twin seaters and you will see the difference. As far as not even an official model of FGFA is available, the design will remain debatable. 




DrSomnath999 said:


> Mean while pakfa can carry external weapons below fuselarge thanks to air intake



Which is not that important, since stealth fighters will always use weapons internally, as long as they fit in the weapon bays and Pak Fa weapon bays are quiet big.


----------



## DARKY

IMO item 117 is already being tested on PAK FA.... while the final engine wouldn't be 117 but Item 129 which would have higher T/W ratio of 12+ and a real 5th gen. standard.. Item 117 has T/W ratio of about 11... while Item 117C has it around 10.5.

Indian FG FA production varients would have Item 129... and not Item 117.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Which is not that important, since stealth fighters will always use weapons internally, as long as they fit in the weapon bays and Pak Fa weapon bays are quiet big.


a silly question i want to ask can internal weapon bay accomodate Air to surface cruise missiles eg brahmos



DARKY said:


> IMO item 117 is already being tested on PAK FA.... while the final engine wouldn't be 117 but Item 129 which would have higher T/W ratio of 12+ and a real 5th gen. standard.. Item 117 has T/W ratio of about 11... while Item 117C has it around 10.5.
> 
> Indian FG FA production varients would have Item 129... and not Item 117.


but product 129 is still in development i think & needs funding as stated earliear by SANCHO , but IMO too early to predict
anything but intial batches of FFGA may have 117 engine until product 129 is fully operational


----------



## DARKY

DrSomnath999 said:


> but product 129 is still in development i think & needs funding as stated earliear by SANCHO , but IMO too early to predict
> anything but intial batches of FFGA may have 117 engine until product 129 is fully operational



Yes Initial would have Item 117 for both PAK FA and FGFA.. 1st PT flight testing of Item 129 can't be expected anytime before 2015 and 2017 on a PAK FA PT... so any Item 129 would be a reality only by 2020.

India is actively funding the engine development.... since IAF is not satisfied with Item 117... on their plane.


----------



## DrSomnath999

DARKY said:


> India is actively funding the engine development.... since IAF is not satisfied with Item 117... on their plane.


well i dont know whether they are satisied Item 117 or not, its about requirements of IAF , If they want 129 they have to fund it


----------



## DARKY

DrSomnath999 said:


> well i dont know whether they are satisied Item 117 or not, its about requirements of IAF , If they want 129 they have to fund it



Yes It would be wrong to state as such... the real info said that IAF wanted a different and better engine from what was proposed for PAK FA... and they are willing to fund it much like they have been for many weapons for the FG FA.

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## DrSomnath999

DARKY said:


> Yes It would be wrong to state as such... the real info said that IAF wanted a different and better engine from what was proposed for PAK FA... and they are willing to fund it much like they have been for many weapons for the FG FA.


hmm i just wanted to hear that from u{ i.e }wrong to state as such about "IAF is not satisfied with Item 117" .


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> a silly question i want to ask can internal weapon bay accomodate Air to surface cruise missiles eg brahmos



That depends on the size of the weapon bays, Brahmos won't fit for sure, but afaik Kh 35 and Kh-58USHKE are aimed to be integrated, both with around 4m lenght. That would be enough for stand off weapons like JSOW or HOSBO, but not for real cruise missiles and while the earlier won't be available for integration on a Russian fighter, the recent co-development of Germany / Israel on HOSBO (now called Pilum), could offer us a longer range weapon for FGFA. On the other hand, the biggest advantage of stealth is, that you can get way closer to a target without beeing detected, so you don't need long range weapons like it is the case with non stealth fighters.



DrSomnath999 said:


> but product 129 is still in development i think & needs funding as stated earliear by SANCHO , but IMO too early to predict
> anything but intial batches of FFGA may have 117 engine until product 129 is fully operational



Check this:

India to go for Upgraded Engine for the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation T-50 Fighter Jet - Defence Now

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## DARKY

DrSomnath999 said:


> hmm i just wanted to hear that from u{ i.e }wrong to state as such about "IAF is not satisfied with Item 117" .



yes a wrong statement but.. It can be looked as such... never mind.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> That depends on the size of the weapon bays, Brahmos won't fit for sure, but afaik Kh 35 and Kh-58USHKE are aimed to be integrated, both with around 4m lenght. That would be enough for stand off weapons like JSOW or HOSBO, but not for real cruise missiles and while the earlier won't be available for integration on a Russian fighter, the recent co-development of Germany / Israel on HOSBO (now called Pilum), could offer us a longer range weapon for FGFA.


well i think brahmos can be armed externally as i stated earlier under the fuselarge .Also what about nirbhay cruise missile well i 
know we dont know nothing about Nirbhay ,but to be a real multi role fighter u must be able to fire AS cruises missiles 


sancho said:


> On the other hand, the biggest advantage of stealth is, that you can get way closer to a target without beeing detected, so you don't need long range weapons like it is the case with non stealth fighters.


but by chance if stealth is blown or u got detected by next gen SAMs then ???? 
a long range stand off cruise missile would always be a safe bait for any fighter 




sancho said:


> Check this:
> 
> India to go for Upgraded Engine for the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation T-50 Fighter Jet - Defence Now


well i had read that earliear but is it related to product 129 .???


----------



## Yeti

There is a great video on the PAK-FA engine development on YT im sure its been posted before but its worth a watch if anyone has not done so.


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> well i think brahmos can be armed externally as i stated earlier under the fuselarge .Also what about nirbhay cruise missile well i
> know we dont know nothing about Nirbhay ,but to be a real multi role fighter u must be able to fire AS cruises missiles



Brahmos on FGFA is only possible at certain wing stations and most likely only with the future lighter version. The fuselage stations are defenitely not strong enough to carry such loads, so that is out of question as well. So far there is no stealth fighter that can carry cruise missiles internally and Nirbhay is just under development and nobody knows about it so far.



DrSomnath999 said:


> but by chance if stealth is blown or u got detected by next gen SAMs then ????
> a long range stand off cruise missile would always be a safe bait for any fighter



Safer for the fighter, but not better for the mission, since the cruise missile can be detected by radar from distance and intercepted. If FGFA gets closer instead, the reaction time for the enemy is less, so better chances for a hit.

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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Brahmos on FGFA is only possible at certain wing stations and most likely only with the future lighter version. The fuselage stations are defenitely not strong enough to carry such loads, so that is out of question as well. So far there is no stealth fighter that can carry cruise missiles internally and Nirbhay is just under development and nobody knows about it so far.


i dont thinks wings can bear the weight of brahmos only fuselarge region can carry the weight of brahmos .
yes thats the point & this is the disadvantage of Stealth fighter that it cant carry CRUISE missiles internally .




sancho said:


> Safer for the fighter, but not better for the mission, since the cruise missile can be detected by radar from distance and intercepted. If FGFA gets closer instead, the reaction time for the enemy is less, so better chances for a hit.


if stealth cruise missiles like scalp/ JASM can be detected why cant stealth planes .The problem is we have to make FFGA really
stealthier .but i dont like to say this but are we ?????


----------



## DARKY

Here a question which was asked to Saturn GD *V Chepkin * in some interview.

*Q.* By the way, if we compare the T-50 "with the" F-22 ", Western sources say that the T-50" loses much of the last parameters such as infrared engine visibility in the rear hemisphere ?

We're working very intensely, and to reduce the infrared and radar visibility, and were twice as better performance in comparison with the "F-22" (at least for those data that are published and which I have). 

*Q.* Today, the Chinese have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on world markets at dumping prices. ?

We do not lose, because such an aircraft as we do, the Chinese have no time soon will be! They say that the plane made is 5-th generation, but you can say anything ... They are the best engine copied from our "AL-31F. We also do engine 5-th generation, and it is in all of its parameters on traction, in specific fuel consumption corresponds to the 5-th generation. 

*"I open a secret and say that we actually already have two motors 5-th generation. The second, which is now conventionally called the "Type 30", has already been tested in flight on the fighter T-50 "According to its parameters it a 15-25 percent greater than "117 ".*

Russian 5th Gen.Engines

AL-41F1S ("Item 117S") 86kN/137kN
&#1040;&#1051;-41&#1060;1&#1057; ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 117&#1057;") (8,800kgf/14,000kgf)

Al-41F1 ("Item 117") 86kN/147kN
&#1040;&#1051;-41&#1060;1 ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 117") (8,800kgf/14,989kgf)

"Type 30" ("&#1090;&#1080;&#1087; 30") At 15% increase:
98.9kN/169.05kN (10,084kgf/17,238kgf)

"Item 129" ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 129") 107kN/176kN (10,910kgf/17,947kgf)

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## DrSomnath999

DARKY said:


> Here a question which was Saturn GD *V Chepkin * in some interview.
> 
> By the way, if we compare the T-50 "with the" F-22 ", Western sources say that the T-50" loses much of the last parameters such as infrared engine visibility in the rear hemisphere ?
> 
> We're working very intensely, and to reduce the infrared and radar visibility, and were twice as better performance in comparison with the "F-22" (at least for those data that are published and which I have).
> 
> Today, the Chinese have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on world markets at dumping prices. ?
> 
> We do not lose, because such an aircraft as we do, the Chinese have no time soon will be! They say that the plane made is 5-th generation, but you can say anything ... They are the best engine copied from our "AL-31F. We also do engine 5-th generation, and it is in all of its parameters on traction, in specific fuel consumption corresponds to the 5-th generation.
> 
> *"I open a secret and say that we actually already have two motors 5-th generation. The second, which is now conventionally called the "Type 30", has already been tested in flight on the fighter T-50 "According to its parameters it a 15-25 percent greater than "117 ".*
> 
> Russian 5th Gen.Engines
> 
> AL-41F1S ("Item 117S") 86kN/137kN
> &#1040;&#1051;-41&#1060;1&#1057; ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 117&#1057;") (8,800kgf/14,000kgf)
> 
> Al-41F1 ("Item 117") 86kN/147kN
> &#1040;&#1051;-41&#1060;1 ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 117") (8,800kgf/14,989kgf)
> 
> "Type 30" ("&#1090;&#1080;&#1087; 30") At 15% increase:
> 98.9kN/169.05kN (10,084kgf/17,238kgf)
> 
> "Item 129" ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 129") 107kN/176kN (10,910kgf/17,947kgf)


very less info given here better wait for next update on this anyway thanks for this info


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## DARKY

Su-30MK, '503' previously used to test Irbis-E radar, flight testing Tikhomirov's AESA radar for PAK-FA












An year old image.

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> i dont thinks wings can bear the weight of brahmos only fuselarge region can carry the weight of brahmos .



That's why I said most likely only with the future lighter version.




DrSomnath999 said:


> if stealth cruise missiles like scalp/ JASM can be detected why cant stealth planes .



They are not really stealthy, only because they have some minor shapings or coatings. Also currently we have only Kh 59 and will get Brahmos which both are not really stealthy.


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## DARKY

DrSomnath999 said:


> i dont thinks wings can bear the weight of brahmos only fuselarge region can carry the weight of brahmos .
> yes thats the point & this is the disadvantage of Stealth fighter that it cant carry CRUISE missiles internally .



Brahmos is a very big CM besides being heavy It requires a lot of space which is not the case with
Kh-59/31/35
Most of them designed to be carried in an Internal weapon bay.
The future variants of brahmos can be lighter and smaller hypersonic ones which could fit in the central elongated bays.



DrSomnath999 said:


> if stealth cruise missiles like scalp/ JASM can be detected why cant stealth planes .The problem is we have to make FFGA really
> stealthier .but i dont like to say this but are we ?????



Do we need to have FGFA stealthy as such ?
We are not going to fight US... or F-22A equipped country... and since our policy is not as ambitious as US/Chinese... we can do with a F-35 standard RCS plane which would be as lethal as F-22 in terms of stealth under support by EW in vicinity of our platforms.
Although I agree that a squadron of such stealthy plane for nuclear delivery would be a dream come true for our AF.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> They are not really stealthy, only because they have some minor shapings or coatings.


well boss ,cruise missiles are usually stealthy because of terrain hugging capabily but scalp/jassm is indeed stealth cruise missile ,and it is due to that shapings or coatings which u are stating minor 


sancho said:


> Also currently we have only Kh 59 and will get Brahmos which both are not really stealthy.



yes thats a problem cant say about KH 59 but brahmos is not stealthy thats a fact . 
Stealth jets actually have a problem of accomodating cruise missiles in their weapon bay due to size problems ,but as u said 
earliear stealth jet can penetrate deep into enemy's air defence thanks to it's stealth and it's handicap is compensated .
well BTW we are getting off topic .ok


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## DrSomnath999

DARKY said:


> Brahmos is a very big CM besides being heavy It requires a lot of space which is not the case with
> Kh-59/31/35
> Most of them designed to be carried in an Internal weapon bay.
> The future variants of brahmos can be lighter and smaller hypersonic ones which could fit in the central elongated bays.


lets hope so , & i hope they also built nirbhay cruise missile keeping PAK FA in mind 




DARKY said:


> Do we need to have FGFA stealthy as such ?
> We are not going to fight US... or F-22A equipped country... and since our policy is not as ambitious as US/Chinese... we can do with a F-35 standard RCS plane which would be as lethal as F-22 in terms of stealth under support by EW in vicinity of our platforms.
> Although I agree that a squadron of such stealthy plane for nuclear delivery would be a dream come true for our AF.


yes , the point is even if god forbids, pakfa is not stealthy as j20 we dont need to be disheartened as we would always have 
edge on chinese on avionics , ECM & bvraam missile technolgy thanks to our reach in western FRANCE , isreali & russian 
equipments .So we dont have to worry if pakfa doent turn out to be as stealthy as expected .


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## rockstarIN

Even Brahmos not stealthy...its speed make it hardly defendable.


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## sancho

> *For fifth-generation aircraft have gold-plated glass*
> 
> Deposition of gold would make the cockpit and pilot's invisible to radar
> 
> In Obninsk NPP "Technology", which produces composite components for the fifth-generation aircraft T-50, developed a unique coating that protects the glass cockpit from the radio waves, and solar radiation. Thanks to him, the signal from the radar, air defense systems is not reflected from the cockpit, and the devices installed inside, remain invisible to the electronic systems of intelligence of the enemy.
> 
> In addition, the pilot is protected from intense radiation near the radar flying aircraft. However, for light aircraft remained transparent in the deposition is necessary to use gold.
> 
> As told "Izvestia" the chief designer of NPP «Technology» Vladimir Vikulin, make multilayer deposition of several metals - gold, indium and tin. The thickness of one layer is less than 20 nanometers (one meter - a billion nanometers), and the entire film - 90 nm. Despite this small amount of metal radiozametnost cockpit equipment is reduced by 250 times.
> 
> - In order to apply this coating, we have developed a special magnetron setup, which allows you to achieve a uniform coating thickness of each layer is 20 nm. Uniformity is very important: if the thickness exceed, change the optical properties of the cab, if you make too thin - electromagnetic radiation would be "leaking" - explained Vikulin.
> 
> According to him, for coating airplane lamp is placed in the autoclave from which evacuated. Then, a special electromagnetic gun evaporating metal "paint" coating uniformly applying the electrons on the surface regardless of its curvature...



Google Übersetzer

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## ARCHON

gold plated glass cockpit/?/////////////////????????????/


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Thats what i am saying for so long....people think the way US made 5th gen aircrafts is the only way. I mean the final goal is to achieve lesser RCS and who cares in what way it is achieved.

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## Birbal

DARKY said:


> Here a question which was asked to Saturn GD *V Chepkin * in some interview.
> 
> *Q.* By the way, if we compare the T-50 "with the" F-22 ", Western sources say that the T-50" loses much of the last parameters such as infrared engine visibility in the rear hemisphere ?
> 
> We're working very intensely, and to reduce the infrared and radar visibility, and were twice as better performance in comparison with the "F-22" (at least for those data that are published and which I have).
> 
> *Q.* Today, the Chinese have copied our Su-27 "and are ready to sell it on world markets at dumping prices. ?
> 
> We do not lose, because such an aircraft as we do, the Chinese have no time soon will be! They say that the plane made is 5-th generation, but you can say anything ... They are the best engine copied from our "AL-31F. We also do engine 5-th generation, and it is in all of its parameters on traction, in specific fuel consumption corresponds to the 5-th generation.
> 
> *"I open a secret and say that we actually already have two motors 5-th generation. The second, which is now conventionally called the "Type 30", has already been tested in flight on the fighter T-50 "According to its parameters it a 15-25 percent greater than "117 ".*
> 
> Russian 5th Gen.Engines
> 
> AL-41F1S ("Item 117S") 86kN/137kN
> &#1040;&#1051;-41&#1060;1&#1057; ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 117&#1057;") (8,800kgf/14,000kgf)
> 
> Al-41F1 ("Item 117") 86kN/147kN
> &#1040;&#1051;-41&#1060;1 ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 117") (8,800kgf/14,989kgf)
> 
> "Type 30" ("&#1090;&#1080;&#1087; 30") At 15% increase:
> 98.9kN/169.05kN (10,084kgf/17,238kgf)
> 
> "Item 129" ("&#1048;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1077; 129") 107kN/176kN (10,910kgf/17,947kgf)



Wow this is good! It means they have an operational fifth generation engine already! Though why did they call it the "Type 30"? It sounds all Chinese.


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## Birbal

DrSomnath999 said:


> if stealth cruise missiles like scalp/ JASM can be detected why cant stealth planes .The problem is we have to make FFGA really
> stealthier .but i dont like to say this but are we ?????


 
Well there are two things going on here. The first is that both the missile can be stealthy and the aircraft stealthy, but the combined RCS is not just the sum of the two RCSs. Instead, you have reflections between the missile and the aircraft which greatly increase your RCS.

The other thing to point out is that stealth planes *can* be detected. You just have to be a lot closer. Also, fighter jets, unlike stealth bombers, are optimized mainly for frontal RCS, so if you view the aircraft from the side, it is somewhat less stealthy and you can detect it earlier. And of course the biggest point is that longer wavelengths are largely unaffected by the stealth shaping and are also better at passing through RAM coatings. As an example of stealth being defeated, see the F-117 shoot down in Yugoslavia: IntelliBriefs: Secrets of 1999 F-117 Shootdown Revealed Obviously, 5th generation aircraft have newer stealth technologies, but with careful work they can probably also be detected.

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## lepziboy

sancho said:


> Google Übersetzer



A great slap in the face for critics who have fun trolling.Slowly but surely Pak Fa will have the stealth features shown

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## gambit

Birbal said:


> And of course the biggest point is that longer wavelengths are largely unaffected by the stealth shaping and are also better at passing through RAM coatings. As an example of stealth being defeated, see the F-117 shoot down in Yugoslavia: IntelliBriefs: Secrets of 1999 F-117 Shootdown Revealed


And out of about *THIRTY EIGHT THOUSANDS* sorties, including 45 from the B-2s, only one F16 and one F-117 were lost. So much for 'defeated'.


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## SamantK

gambit said:


> And out of about *THIRTY EIGHT THOUSANDS* sorties, including 45 from the B-2s, only one F16 and one F-117 were lost. So much for 'defeated'.


 the sense of his statement is correct, he said they can be defeated, did not say they get defeated all the time... please don't isolate the word's meaning and construe the whole sentence.. a senior member like you should know more...

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## DrSomnath999

Birbal said:


> Well there are two things going on here. The first is that both the missile can be stealthy and the aircraft stealthy, but the combined RCS is not just the sum of the two RCSs. Instead, you have reflections between the missile and the aircraft which greatly increase your RCS.


well dont mix up both things , a stealth plane if carry any external ammunition / drop tanks the stealth plane would lose it's stealth advantage .so even if it also stealth cruise missile or not it 
would increase the plane RCS for sure may be little or may be more




Birbal said:


> The other thing to point out is that stealth planes *can* be detected. You just have to be a lot closer. Also, fighter jets, unlike stealth bombers, are optimized mainly for frontal RCS, so if you view the aircraft from the side, it is somewhat less stealthy and you can detect it earlier. And of course the biggest point is that longer wavelengths are largely unaffected by the stealth shaping and are also better at passing through RAM coatings. As an example of stealth being defeated, see the F-117 shoot down in Yugoslavia: IntelliBriefs: Secrets of 1999 F-117 Shootdown Revealed Obviously, 5th generation aircraft have newer stealth technologies, but with careful work they can probably also be detected.


well stealth doesnt mean the plane is invisible , it can be detected 
*as a motto is for every weapon their is counter weapon & for that counter weapon there is also a counter weapon of that counter weapon.*

eg : for evading radar detection stealth technology was developed & to counter stealth technology there will be / or would be develop anti stealth technology or tactics to counter it

but the point is every time all the counter weapon technology that i mention would win over it's weapon it is meant to counter is not mandatory sometimes things dont work out as u plan


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## sancho

Another interesting report:



> *New cruise missile for the Russian Air Force long-range arms division*
> 
> Moscow, Russia - It can carry either a conventional or a nuclear warhead
> 
> A new cruise missile has entered service in Russian arsenals. The declaration arrives from the ministry of Defence, without providing any details, only saying it will be an air-launched long-range missile.
> 
> The weapon, developed by the Taktitchesckoye Raketnoye Vooruzhenie Defense Corporation, *will also be installed in fifth-generation aircraft Sukhoi Pak-Fa...*



Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa


It doesn't state FGFA and the if it's nuclear and not range limited it won't be available for FGFA anyway, but it is interesting that the Russians plan to integrate cruise missiles on it too.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Another interesting report:
> 
> 
> 
> Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa
> 
> 
> It doesn't state FGFA and the if it's nuclear and not range limited it won't be available for FGFA anyway, but it is interesting that the Russians plan to integrate cruise missiles on it too.


well very less info given , i hope more info on it can come in future .Any ways thanks for the info


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## Agent_47




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## Yeti

The fifth-generation fighter, the T-50 (PAK FA) involved in the development of "technology" company of gold dust used in the manufacture of cockpit equipment that protects from the sun as well as radio waves. 
The cockpit aranyozásának due to enemy air defense radar units are not issued by the waves reflected back to the PAK FA as well as on-board electronic equipment "invisible" to remain in radio electronic reconnaissance equipment. Vladimir Vikulin, the "technology" company chief designer, said the complex will have glass cockpit. The golden canopy, the shielding indiumot and tin are also used. A thickness of not less than 20 nano-meters, while the total thickness of not less than 90 nano-meters. The use of technology thanks to the on-board electronics, "visibility" 250-fold decrease.

Protection of radio waves, the complex of the cockpit canopy protects the polymeric components of infrared and ultraviolet radiation effects as well. This type of radiation increase the fragility of plastics, which can result in unexpected situations. In 2010, an Indian pilot ejecting ejection seat belt when the polymer component of "deterioration of" lost their lives due. The PAK FA is expected to receive after successfully completing tests of the new cabin roof. The cost of gold is not stated, but Vikulin said that a canopy of gold-dust protection for only two or three grams of gold is required. Similar technology is used in the F-22 Raptor is repül&#337;gépnél.


*Gold-plated cabin roof to get the PAK FA*


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## Yeti

The Army Commander, General Alexandr Zelin said on Tuesday, 28 that Russian Air Force will renew 70% of its fleet of aircraft by 2020. He told the newspaper Moskovski Komsomolets fighters that will be incorporated into T-50 PAK FA, PAL'S strategic aircraft, aircraft warning temprana A-100 attack aircraft and pilotless.

Referring to the T-50, said he will be designed to *achieve air supremacy and isolate enemy forces to the theater*. In the case of strategic aircraft'S PAL, Zelin gave no details and only pointed out that the military authorities pay special attention to this project related to the areas of deterrence.

At the same time, said the continued strategic aircraft already incorporated into the Air Force. Thus, the Tu-160 bombers will be renewed until version Tu-160M &#8203;&#8203;and Tu-95MS Tu-up version 95MSM.

Rockets for T-50 from 2014
Russian company KTRV (Korporacija Takti&#269;eskoe Raketnoe Vooru&#382;enie) today announced that development of advanced tactical guided missiles for promising multipurpose supersonic fighter fifth generation Sukhoi T-50 will be completed by 2014. Has reported, citing the company's chief Boris KTRV agreed sum, the Russian agency RIA Novosti.


RIA Novosti also noted that these are the types of missiles, Kh-35UE (AS-20 Kayak), Kh-38ME, Kh-58UShKE (AS-11 kilter) and RDC-MD (AA-11 Archer). Their development programs are expected to be completed in the period 2012 to 2013. tactical antiship guided missile Kh-35UE designed to destroy surface ships, has a maximum range of 260 km, while protiradioelektronická guided missile Kh-31PD is designed for strikes on air defense systems opponent to 250 km distant. Protiradioelektronická guided missile Kh-58UShKE is capable of destroying electronic targets at distances up to 245 km, short-range missiles RVV-MD with a maximum range of 40 km is designed to destroy airborne targets particularly in aerial combat maneuvering. Moreover, Russia carried out test missiles Kh-31PD (AS-17 Mod 2) you have to use the 4th attack aircraft generation Su-34. All of these types of missiles will be put into service simultaneously, indicating T-50 aircraft to full operational service in the Russian Air Force in 2014. T-50 aircraft, developed under a program called PAK FA (Perspektivnyj Aviacionnyj complex Frontovoj Aviaciji - promising aviation complex frontline Air Force) to replace in service with the Russian Air Force MiG-29 and Su-27. (stk / red)


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## gubbi

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Thats what i am saying for so long....people think the way US made 5th gen aircrafts is the only way. I mean the final goal is to achieve lesser RCS and who cares in what way it is achieved.



The E-6 prowler electronic warfare aircraft, the F-22, the F-35 and many others all carry gold embedded canopies. Gold is embedded in the material while making the canopies. One can also find this gold embedded visors on many pilots helmets and most importantly it started with visors on astronauts' helmets to protect them from cosmic radiation. Tech spin-offs from the space age.


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## DrSomnath999




----------



## sudhir007



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## satishkumarcsc

1:15 Did the T-50 just fire a missile?


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## sudhir007




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## Relucent

1:11 @ vid ...this plane is razor thin !
Does it stand out from other 5th gen fighter in this regard?
J20 seems fatter so does f 22....not in any way saying these planes are less stealthy.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> 1:15 Did the T-50 just fire a missile?



That wasn't real but a computer sequence.




Relucent said:


> 1:11 @ vid ...this plane is razor thin !
> Does it stand out from other 5th gen fighter in this regard?
> J20 seems fatter so does f 22....not in any way saying these planes are less stealthy.



That's the advantage of the design, by placing the weapon bay between the engines and not below them. That's why the T50, just like the YF23 have a flatter design, which will contribute to the RCS as well.

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## angeldemon_007

> 1:15 Did the T-50 just fire a missile?


That was a different video...Whoever made this video must have joined the two videos.


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## -1o1-

A true rival for F-22


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## kingofkings

satishkumarcsc said:


> 1:15 Did the T-50 just fire a missile?




Ya buddy, the weapons bay opened and the missile was dropped. Watched it for the first time. Thnax for the share sudhir.


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## i am the knight

nice video.....guys


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## U.S Navy SEALs

I don't understand why Indians need to put a BrahMos on every damn thing that comes into their possesion. Don't get me wrong BrahMos is an excellent cruise missile, possibly the best of its kind, but THERE IS NO NEED to install it on a slim 5th Generation jet fighter. It taints its excellent manuverability, at the very most you'll be able to fit one BrahMos, it's so pointless. Sacrifice those other few hardpoints for that one BrahMos? Its foolish. I can understand it being installed on the Su-30MKI as it's not as stealthy. The Pak Fa is tailor-made, specially made, with components and composite material, there's no need to wear out those materials by fitting a BrahMos.


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## sancho

U.S Navy SEALs said:


> I don't understand why Indians need to put a BrahMos on every damn thing that comes into their possesion. Don't get me wrong BrahMos is an excellent cruise missile, possibly the best of its kind, but THERE IS NO NEED to install it on a slim 5th Generation jet fighter. It taints its excellent manuverability, at the very most you'll be able to fit one BrahMos, it's so pointless. Sacrifice those other few hardpoints for that one BrahMos? Its foolish. I can understand it being installed on the Su-30MKI as it's not as stealthy. The Pak Fa is tailor-made, specially made, with components and composite material, there's no need to wear out those materials by fitting a BrahMos.



First of all, it's not only India that has a requirement for long range cruise missiles on stealth fighters, any country has it. The US will integrate JASSM externally to F35, UK Storm Shadow and Russia wants to integrate long range missiles on Pak Fa as well.
Secondly, Brahmos 1 will not be used on FGFA, but Brahmos 2 which is smaller and lighter. The goal is to fit 3 x on MKI, 2 x on FGFA and between 1 to 3 on Mig 29K / Rafale.

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## sudhir007

The protective coating against radiation for the combat aircraft canopy has been developed in Russia - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

The specialists of Obninsk-based Technologiya research and development enterprise have developed the metal-optic nano-coating for the canopy of combat aircraft, which protects the pilots against radiation and intense solar radiance during altitude flights. It has been declared by the Director of Steklo research and development division of Technologiya, Valery Temnikh, Lenta.ru reports.

According to him, the new coating should be applied on the inner side of the canopy and it decreases the warmth of solar flux by 40% and the radiation &#8211; by 30%. In addition, the coating decreases the electromagnetic emission 250 times and increases abrasive wear resistance and wear resistance. "Various metals are applied to the canopy and the light transmittance should be at least 70% after this procedure", - Temnykh said.

Besides, the new coating will help decrease the cockpit&#8217;s radar signature by 30%. According to Temnykh, the radio signal is reflected by the finished glass and the quenched signal spreads in different directions. The overall coating&#8217;s thickness is about 80 nanometers. Technologiya uses special magnetron deposition equipment for applying the coating to the canopy. The coating will be applied to the canopy of &#1058;-50 (PAK FA), &#1052;iG-29&#1050;, Su-30 fighters and Su-34 bomber.

The mass-media have reported in late March 2012 that Technologiya have used gold sputtering in order to protect the pilot of T-50 against radio waves and solar radiance. According to the Chief Designer of Technologiya, Vladimir Vikulin, indium and tin are also used besides gold. The thickness of one layer is 20 nm, and the overall coating&#8217;s thickness is around 90 nm.

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## peace lover

DrSomnath999 said:


> lets hope so , & i hope they also built nirbhay cruise missile keeping PAK FA in mind
> 
> 
> 
> yes , the point is even if god forbids, pakfa is not stealthy as j20 we dont need to be disheartened as we would always have
> edge on chinese on avionics , ECM & bvraam missile technolgy thanks to our reach in western FRANCE , isreali & russian
> equipments .So we dont have to worry if pakfa doent turn out to be as stealthy as expected .


if they are able to make j20 stealthier than pakfa then don't you think that they will be able to even produce avionics,ecm,bvraam comparable to western world .i mean if they can master stealth in such short time then these things should not be an issue for them.


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## Dash

peace lover said:


> if they are able to make j20 stealthier than pakfa then don't you think that they will be able to even produce avionics,ecm,bvraam comparable to western world .i mean if they can master stealth in such short time then these things should not be an issue for them.



For J-20 what we see is a stealth airframe, and not mastering stealth. Russia "could" have developed such an airframe but they have a different idea. As per Chinese, I dont challenge their tech but "mastery" is something, that is yet to come.


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## DrSomnath999

*EACH NEW GENERATION OF AIRCRAFT ENGINES REQUIRES AN INCREASE IN EXPENDITURE ON R & D*

Moscow. April 14. Airports - Every new generation of engines requires an increasing amount of labor and financial resources for science, for scientific research (NCI), said Supervisor of CIAM Vladimir Skibin. 

According to him, a few years ago an analysis of the dynamics of expenditure on science when creating new engines, which showed that the engine of the fourth generation of the total project funding was spent on R & D of 15-20%. When you create a fifth-generation engine of the total funding for the development of the project on R & D accounts for 60%. And according to forecasts, the development of sixth-generation engine for science and technological advance (NTRP) will take more than 70% of the total project costs. 

Currently, CIAM was working hard to develop the methodology and the engine is expected in the coming years it will become available to all developers of engines. "Its essence lies in the fact that the developer has the right motor to begin research and development work, there is no necessary body of knowledge and advanced scientific and technological potential," - said scientific director of CIAM. 

*He noted that one of the most important tasks is the creation of CIAM NTRP. At the same time to create NTRP today imposed new requirements: the work must end technology demonstrator site or the engine as a whole. "One SRI is unable to create the necessary NTZ, must work with industry, EDB, enterprises," - said V.Skibin. Therefore, the decision to work together on advanced engines PD-14 and the "product 30" for the fifth-generation fighter has been fully justified. "To date, this joint work is being done with the Permian of" Aircraft Engine "and" NPO "Saturn" - he said.* 

Speaking on the importance of NPOV, V.Skibin stressed that today's aircraft engine is a revolutionary progress has analogues in other industries or on elements of design, nor the stress strain behavior at a temperature of not. In the U.S. and Europe accepted indicators of future aircraft engines. The problem in the near and medium term to create engines that have fuel consumption by 70% less, which puts tremendous complexity of the task facing scientists and researchers. Also provides for reduction of emission rates by 60-70%, a significant reduction in engine noise. "The long-term scientific studies it is important to keep up with Russia, it is necessary to make up the backlog, where it is still there," - says V.Skibin. 

He stressed that in recent years have learned to consider CIAM, and thus produce scapular machine. At the time, our scientists and specialists, to some extent, jealous of the fan blades shirokohordnym hollow, domestic engine-blades are not made. Now in Russia, and are able to consider such blades, and produce them. The highest skill - to consider the kinetics of combustion in the combustion chamber in the light of turbulence. "This is a huge task, and it CIAM successfully solve," - said V.Skibin. 

Responding to a question about the engine of the second stage of development for the future fighter PAK FA program, scientific director of CIAM said that the decision to start R & D over the engine of the second stage was taken over a year ago. Domestic engine manufacturers have shown convincingly that the Russian industry and domestic science in a position to tackle this very complex subject. There was some research done on the basic and defining the parameters and characteristics, the possibility of creating an engine with a very high performance turbine, combustion chamber, a fan. These works were carried out industry trials were conducted in CIAM, some tests were conducted at JSC "NPO" Saturn "and the NPC of gas turbine" Salute. "Was shown the possibility of creating an engine with the given parameters are not inferior to foreign aircraft engine performance. Today, this work has been going on in the OCD. The program, established co-operatives, has been appointed chief designer and the work is quite active. 

Responding to a question on why were not completed work on the propeller-fan motor with a high bypass ratio of NK-93, V.Skibin said that the engine NK-93 was created in Soviet times for heavy military transport aircraft Il-106. Were created by experienced engine, conducted bench tests, the engine has been admitted to the flight test. CIAM was actively involved in all stages of the engine. However, from the very beginning there were serious comments on the compressor and turbine, which were created by technology and the level of the 1980s. At meetings in Samara, disassembled, what should be done to improve the engine, and was designated the second phase of development. But as time went on, and further progress in building the engine was not. 

After some time in the development of NK-93 returned once more, were considered the work on this engine, is scheduled program, the cost is defined as the engine of virtually every node should have something to refine, modify, and improve. This was to be done to the engine can be certified. Today, the blade design of the machine is obsolete, and now you can only talk about the possibility of using separate units and making the engine NK-93. At the same time V.Skibin stressed that the scheme itself is a progressive motor. 

He continued that he had repeatedly raised the question of continued testing, and including the flight. "We have waited a long time, but the proposal was not convincing. First of all, there was no answer on what the aircraft is necessary to establish NC-93. Specific fuel consumption is very good, but the engine was considered at a speed of M = 0.75, and the airplane people have M = 0 ,8-0, 82, and then the specific fuel consumption are quite different. Engine thrust was 18 tons, but at a temperature of 140 degrees above - listed the scientific director of CIAM. - As a result it was decided to use the possibility of developments in this remarkable engine land in the industrial gas turbines, which are now very well. However, if the task of creating a new plane, NC-93 should be redone and it is clear on what sites to work. "
Google Translate


----------



## DrSomnath999

peace lover said:


> if they are able to make j20 stealthier than pakfa then don't you think that they will be able to even produce avionics,ecm,bvraam comparable to western world .i mean if they can master stealth in such short time then these things should not be an issue for them.


tell u what plz dont mind u have a disasterous comprehensive skills plz kindly read once again what i told i said "GOD FORBIDS even if"


> yes , the point is even if god forbids, pakfa is not stealthy as j20 we dont need to be disheartened as we would always have
> edge on chinese on avionics , ECM & bvraam missile technolgy thanks to our reach in western FRANCE , isreali & russian
> equipments .So we dont have to worry if pakfa doent turn out to be as stealthy as expected .



does that mean j20 is stealthier than PAK FA ???Infact pakfa is just in prototype stages u better wait for final production model lets see what russians have installed for us???

now regarding rest other things i had told the reasons very well in my post why we would have the edge . I am not saying they
cant make it ,but u should see the decades of experience /proven record of a country whose products are renowned for their
quality like USA ,RUSSIA ,FRANCE & ISRAEL


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## DrSomnath999

double post


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## joekrish

Great video mate.


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## Zabaniyah

According to Russian media:






This is not a troll bait


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## conworldus

Isn't it really funny that the Russian Media got the J-20 wing shape wrong? 



Zabaniya said:


> According to Russian media:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not a troll bait


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## Safriz




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## sudhir007

Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter

Seven years before its scheduled completion, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has already announced a two-year delay in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) India and Russia are to jointly develop.

Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, &#8220;The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start.&#8221;

The FGFA is the flagship of the Indo-Russian partnership. Both countries say it would be the world&#8217;s most advanced fighter. But interviews with Indian designers who have overseen the project suggest significant disquiet. There is apprehension the FGFA would significantly exceed its current $6 million budget, because this figure reflects the expenditure on just the basic aircraft. Crucial avionics systems would cost extra.

On the positive side, Indian designers say the FGFA project would provide invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter aircraft that is bigger and more complex than the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), India&#8217;s foundational aerospace achievement.

The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter. That adds up to $25 billion each, in addition to the development cost.

The FGFA&#8217;s precursor has already flown. In January 2010, Russian company Sukhoi test-flew a prototype called the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally prospective aircraft complex of frontline aviation). Now, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will partner Sukhoi to transform the bare-bones PAK-FA into an FGFA that meets the Indian Air Force (IAF)&#8217;s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and world-beating airborne radar that outranges enemy fighters.

But Sukhoi insists the PAK-FA already meets Russia&#8217;s requirements, says N C Agarwal, HAL&#8217;s design chief, who spearheaded the FGFA negotiations until his recent retirement. HAL worries Russia might ask India to pay extra for further development, particularly the avionics that transform a mere flying machine into a lethal weapons platform. That would leave the $6-billion budget in tatters.

The IAF clearly wants a top-of-the-line FGFA. According to Ashok Nayak, who spoke to Business Standard as HAL&#8217;s chairman before retiring last October, the IAF has specified 40-45 improvements that must be made to the PAK-FA. These have been formalised into an agreed list between Russia and India, the Tactical Technical Assignment.

A key IAF requirement is a &#8216;360-degree&#8217; AESA (airborne electronically scanned active) radar, rather than the AESA radar that Russia developed. Either way, India would pay Russia extra: either in licence fee for the Russian radar; or hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, for developing a world-beating, 360-degree AESA radar.

Nor is the IAF clear on whether the FGFA should be a single-seat fighter like the PAK-FA, or a twin-seat aircraft like the Sukhoi-30MKI. A section of the IAF backs a single-seat fighter, while another prefers two pilots for flying and fighting a complex, networked fighter. During the ongoing preliminary design phase (PDP), for which India paid $295 million, the two sides would determine whether developing the PAK-FA into a twin-seat aircraft (inevitably more bulky) would reduce the FGFA&#8217;s stealth and performance unacceptably.

&#8220;The single-seat FGFA is essential for the IAF, and we will transform the Russian single-seat fighter into our single-seat version with a large component of Indian avionics. The twin-seat version will depend on the PDP conclusions,&#8221; says Nayak.

The PDP also requires Sukhoi to hand over design documentation to HAL, providing it a detailed insight into the design processes of the PAK-FA. Since India took years to decide to join the FGFA project, HAL missed out the design phase entirely.

The 18-month PDP, which terminates this year, will be followed by the &#8216;R&D phase&#8217;, which could take another seven years, says the HAL chairman. The FGFA would be designed in both countries. About 100 HAL engineers already operate from a facility in Bangalore. Another contingent would move to Russia to work in the Sukhoi design bureau.

&#8220;Our boys will learn the Russian language, their way of working, their design rules and their design norms. We are left-hand drive, while they are right-hand drive. The Russians say they would part with all these things,&#8221; says Nayak.

But the most valuable learning, say HAL executives, would take place during the FGFA&#8217;s flight-testing. &#8220;Unlike the basic design phase which we missed out on, we will actually gain experience during flight testing. This phase throws up dozens of problems, and we will participate in resolving these, including through design changes,&#8221; says Agarwal.

HAL designers also relish the FGFA&#8217;s specific challenges. For achieving stealth, its missiles, rockets and reconnaissance payloads are concealed in an internal bay under the wings. Before using these, a door slides open, exposing the weapon for use.

The Russians clearly believe HAL possesses useful capabilities, including the ability to design the AESA radar. Also attractive is India&#8217;s experience in composites.

&#8220;The LCA programme has generated a high level of expertise in composite materials within the National Aerospace Laboratory and some joint teams. The FGFA requires &#8216;higher modulus&#8217; composites, which can withstand the 120-130 degree Centigrade temperatures that arise whilst flying at Mach 1.7 speeds,&#8221; says Agarwal.

Despite the continuing imponderables, HAL believes the FGFA project provides genuine technological skills, far more useful than licensed manufacture. Agarwal says, &#8220;We will pay some $6-7 billion to France for the licence to build the Rafale in HAL. In the FGFA project, a similar sum would bring in genuine design knowledge that will help us in the future.&#8221;

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## Yeti

Military Aviation
04:17 pm - Friday 
PAK-FA experimental aircraft: first operational tests in 2013

Moscow, Russia - 14 exemplars by 2015

(WAPA) - The Russian Air Force has declared that it will receive the first batch of prototypes of its T-50 PAK-FA fifth generation in 2013. Russian Air Force chief of staff Alexander Zelin confirmed the news yesterday.

The T-50 PAK-FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) is a programme developed by Sukhoi and is Russia's first new major warplane designed since the fall of the Soviet Union.

"The work on the fifth generation fighter is going according to schedule. The third prototype has joined the testing program and the fourth is being built".

The T-50 made its maiden flight in 2010 and only three prototypes have begun flight tests. According to Zelin, the number of T-50 aircraft involved in testing would be increased to 14 by 2015.

The Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA was born as the Russian reply to the Nato's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, and it is expected to feature the same or even better capabilities. (Avionews)
(2013) 



Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa

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## sancho

> *India&#8217;s Version of Sukhoi T-50 Delayed by Two Years*
> 
> The joint Indo-Russian project to produce a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) for the Indian Air Force is facing a two-year delay. It will now take nine years instead of the stipulated seven to develop. *The Indian Air Force attributes the delay to Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL)*, which has a workshare of 25 percent in the program.
> 
> The two-seat FGFA is based on the single-seat Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA. *HAL is tasked with supplying designs for the tandem seating and cockpit displays, none of which have been provided on time, a senior air force official* told AIN. HAL is also responsible for navigation and countermeasure dispensing...



India


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## keerthan

i really hope and belive that it will be far more superior and stealthier than J20 in stealth and engine trust.
chinese are still tring hard too create a powerfull engine for J20 to provide it with supercruise


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## BLEND

*Fourth T-50 Stealth Fighter to Fly This Year*

Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) is to introduce a fourth Sukhoi T-50 stealth fighter into its test and development program this year, the company's President Mikhail Pogosyan said on Thursday.

"We are now testing three aircraft. A fourth will be brought in this year," he said.

Pogosyan had said earlier this year that the firm would introduce a fourth aircraft into the test program but did not disclose when.

The first production standard T-50 is due to enter service with the Russian Air Force by 2015, and the first evaluation example by 2013. The service plans to acquire 60 of the fifth-generation fighters.

The T-50, also known as project PAK-FA, first flew on January 29, 2011 and was first publicly revealed at the Moscow Air Show in August that year. India will also acquire an advanced fighter aircraft based on the T-50.

Fourth T-50 Stealth Fighter to Fly This Year | Defense | RIA Novosti

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## Major Shaheb

DARKY said:


> *The emergence of the Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA marks the end of the United States' quarter century long monopoly on the design of Very Low Observable (VLO) or stealth aircraft.*
> 
> The capabilities of the PAK-FA make a clear statement defining the Russian view of Within-Visual-Range (WVR) and Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) air combat, which diverges fundamentally from contemporary Western thinking. The Russian paradigm is clearly centred on the idea that BVR and WVR combat are much alike, insofar as during the engagement endgame the fighter under attack is within tracking range of the weapon fire control system and where possible the weapon or fire control element should be defeated kinematically. The principal observed difference between WVR and BVR combat in the Russian model, is that the latter relies more heavily on long range sensors and their ability to defeat low observability measures, or active countermeasures.
> 
> *Designed to compete against the F-22 in traditional Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and Within Visual Range (WVR) air combat, the PAK-FA shares all of the key fifth generation attributes until now unique to the F-22 - stealth, supersonic cruise, thrust vectoring, highly integrated avionics and a powerful suite of active and passive sensors.* While the PAK-FA firmly qualifies as a fifth generation design, it has two further attributes absent in the extant F-22 design. The first is extreme agility, resulting from advanced aerodynamic design, exceptional thrust/weight ratio performance and three dimensional thrust vectoring integrated with an advanced digital flight control system. The second attribute is exceptional combat persistence, the result of a 25,000 lb internal fuel load. The internal and external weapon payload are likely to be somewhat larger, though comparable to those of the F-22A.
> 
> Russia intends to operate at least two hundred PAK-FAs, India two hundred and fifty of the Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) variant, with global PAK-FA exports likely to add at least 500 more tails to the production tally. The stated intent is to supply the PAK-FA as a replacement for existing T-10 Flanker series fighter aircraft.
> 
> Initial analysis of PAK-FA imagery and public disclosures by the Russian government and Sukhoi bureau indicate that a production PAK-FA will yield greater aerodynamic and kinematic performance to the current F-22A design, and similar low observables performance to the F-35A JSF2.
> 
> While the basic shaping observed on this first prototype of the PAK-FA will deny it the critical all-aspect stealth performance of the F-22 in BVR air combat and deep penetration, its extreme manoeuvrability/controllability design features, which result in extreme agility, give it the potential to become the most lethal and survivable fighter ever built for air combat engagements3.
> 
> *It is important to consider that the publicly displayed PAK-FA prototype does not represent a production configuration of the aircraft, which is to employ a new engine design, and extensive VLO treatments which are not required on a prototype.* A number of observers have attempted to draw conclusions about production PAK-FA VLO performance based on the absence of such treatments, the result of which have been a series of unrealistically optimistic commentaries.
> 
> *PAK-FA Low Rate Initial Production is planned for 2013, and Full Rate Production for 2015, with initial deliveries of the Indian dual seat variant planned for 2017.*
> 
> The evolution and development history of the PAK-FA, historically, has not been well documented in open sources, largely due to the high levels of secrecy surrounding this program since its inception. What is known from open sources largely amounts to a collation of various intentional and incidental Russian disclosures, and increasingly, disclosures by India, who have a 25% share in the development of the design.
> 
> Study of the aircraft's design features, and earlier Sukhoi demonstrators, indicate that much careful thought has been invested into this design and its progressive development over a period of two decades.
> 
> When the Soviets deployed the Su-27S Flanker B during the early 1980s, investment into a replacement was initiated. This resulted in the reasonably well known 1990s MiG I.44 MFI (Mnogo-Funktsionniy Istrebitel' or Multi-Role Fighter), which was a multirole fighter modelled on the aerodynamics of the three Eurocanard designs, but much larger and intended to be powered by the Al-41F supersonic cruise engine.
> 
> The MFI was built to supercruise, and to provide very high agility, but no investment was made into signature reduction, making it fundamentally uncompetitive against the early 1990s US Air Force Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) YF-22 and YF-23 demonstrators.
> 
> The lack of a future for an expensive high signature fighter, and the MiG organisations de facto bankruptcy due to the export market success of the larger Sukhoi Flanker, saw the MFI relegated to a demonstration program. The important product of the MFI program was the Al-41F supercruising engine, modelled on the United States' Pratt & Whitney F119 series, which powers the F-22A. The Al-41F is the basis of the high temperature core components used in the supercruise capable 117S series engine, which now powers the production Su-35S Flanker and PAK-FA prototypes.
> 
> During this period Sukhoi developed the unusual S.32/S.37 forward swept wing demonstrator, intended to combine supersonic performance with super-manoeuvrability. This design demonstrated the use of large LEX, over large quarter circular inlets. Like the MFI, this design was not stealthy and was used to prove basic technologies and design rules.
> 
> A more successful demonstrator built during this period was the Su-37 Super Flanker, derived from the earlier Su-27M/Su-35 Flanker E. The Su-37 was intended to extend the T-10 Flanker design to the limit, especially in avionic systems and manoeuvre performance. It introduced the first axi-symmetric 3D (three dimensional) Thrust Vector Control (TVC) nozzles, manually controlled, and later integrated with the Digital Flight Control System (DFCS); the first quadruplex DFCS in a Russian fighter; composite structural components; a modern glass cockpit and force sensitive sidestick controller; digital core avionics; the N-011M BARS hybrid Electronically Steered Array (ESA) radar; and, a compact ESA tail warning radar.
> 
> The combination of aerodynamic design refined through progressive evolutionary development, DFCS, twin 3D vectoring thrust supercruising engines interoperating in and on an advanced kinematic design airframe, extended the Flanker design squarely into the category of extreme agility - which can be defined as the harmonised and complementary balance of extreme manoeuvrability and extreme controllability.
> 
> The Su-37 Super Flanker demonstration effort extended the viability of the basic T-10 Flanker design by almost two decades, and yielded basic technology used in the design of the Su-30MKI/MKM Flanker H and, as seen in the latter part of 2008, the Su-35S, often labelled the 4++ Generation Flanker. It also provided experience which was critical to the development of the replacement for the T-10 Flanker series.
> 
> The PAK-FA properly qualifies as a 21st century project, as formal tendering for the program was launched during the 2000 - 2001 period by the Russian MoD. Russian sources claim that Sukhoi, MiG and Yakovlev were invited to bid proposals. Initial thinking was to develop a fighter larger than the MiG-29 Fulcrum, but smaller than the Su-27 Flanker, with greater range/persistence to the Flanker, low observable capability, extreme agility, supersonic cruise capability, and near STOL short field capabilities. Sukhoi won the tender in 2002 with its T-50/I-21 proposal, with MiG and Yakovlev engaged as subcontractors in the development. Russian sources state that Sukhoi's ability to fund much of the development effort from company export revenue profits was a major factor in the decision.
> 
> The initial design of the PAK-FA was finished in 2004, amid public controversies about lower than intended maximum speed, and greater than intended empty weight. Full Russian MoD funding was not provided until 2005 - 2006.
> 
> The prototype flown on the 29th January, 2010, is intended to prove aircraft aerodynamics, structure, and compatibility of the VLO shaping with aerodynamic and structural constraints. It is claimed to be fitted with the 117S Al-31F engine variant, common to the Su-35S, as the intended new engine has yet to complete development and enter production. The latter is expected to be a variant or derivative of the Al-41F design. The existing prototype probably lacks a complete version of its final avionic suite, most likely employing large parts of the new and fully digital Su-35S avionic suite as a basis for evolving the design of the final avionics fit, as has been the case on the development of previous Flanker variants.
> 
> The first public flight lasted 47 minutes and was intended to test handling, engine behaviour, landing gear operation, and basic systems functions2.
> 
> *The PAK-FA was designed with a stated requirement of being able to operate from short, unprepared runways in support of expeditionary operations.* With the exception of an observable deployed arrestor hook, the PAK-FA design incorporates all of the key design characteristics that are required in aircraft built to operate from Russian Navy ski-jump equipped aircraft carriers. It is not known whether the extant structural design includes the necessary provisions for arrestor hook loads.
> 
> Equipped with 3D TVC and large LEX control surfaces, power approach speeds in the order of 100 knots, sink rates somewhat less than 20 ft/sec and quite flat aircraft approach attitudes can be expected from this design, as can commensurately low arrestor hook and related carrier landing loads. Such performance, when combined with the extensive field of view provided by the fighter/strike/attack canopy configuration, and a functional arrestor hook system, likely integrated into the rear ventral internal weapon bay, would make the PAK-FA an eminently suitable aircraft for maritime operations.
> 
> *India was engaged early in the PAK-FA development effort, but Russian sources suggest that negotiations on the work share between HAL and Sukhoi/KnAAPO were protracted. Open sources suggest that India is responsible for 25% of the development of the PAK-FA, primarily in software and systems integration, areas where India has recent experience via the Su-30MKI program**. India is to also contribute in composite materials, with claims the PAK-FA structure is, by total aircraft weight, rather than just the airframe structural weight, some 25% titanium alloys, and 20% composites. Indian sources suggest that both single and dual seat variants will be built for India.*


 
Yhis is the best deal India have ever signed... great going India...


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## Major Shaheb

DARKY said:


> *Possible production version of Su PAK FA and HAL/Su FGFA*


 
FGFA is a tendem seat design...

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## Black Widow

@ Major Sahab: Thanks for your posts...


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## SpArK

A t-50 goodie.

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## keerthan

Major Shaheb said:


> FGFA is a tendem seat design...



nice pics........

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## Sergi

Nice post @jimmy93


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## arp2041




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## skydrill_2

f-22 has 1-dimensional thrust vectoring while PAK FA has 3-dimensional multi-axis thrust vectoring which can even beat 6th generation aircrafts...now tell, which is superior??

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## skydrill_2

f-22's poor 1- dimensional thrust vectoring----

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## skydrill_2

pak fa is obviously competable to 6th gen american airceafts


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## Zabaniyah

^There aren't any 6th generation aircraft yet. Still likely in drawing boards. Brah...

By the way, any idea which countries plan to purchase the T-50 other than India and Russia?


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## India defense

Zabaniya said:


> ^There aren't any 6th generation aircraft yet. Still likely in drawing boards. Brah...
> 
> By the way, any idea which countries plan to purchase the T-50 other than India and Russia?



May be BD

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## skydrill_2

Zabaniya said:


> ^There aren't any 6th generation aircraft yet. Still likely in drawing boards. Brah...
> 
> By the way, any idea which countries plan to purchase the T-50 other than India and Russia?



india won't buy t-50.....its developing its own fgfa based on t-50 ofcourse!.....and 6th gen is in the panels in the US(planning phase)..
Sixth-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1st to 6th gen aircrafts----




so,according to design it should look like this--





BTW, you know what? that even 7th gen and 8th gen fighter aircrafts design has been already predicted!!


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## Kompromat

I always have been a great fan of Flanker's killer looks , even though T-50 is a fine design , one can't match it aesthetically with other Flankers.


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## Dash

Zabaniya said:


> ^There aren't any 6th generation aircraft yet. Still likely in drawing boards. Brah...
> 
> By the way, any idea which countries plan to purchase the T-50 other than India and Russia?



No one, both countries will guard the tech for sometime before they decide where to export it actually.
Post which there are countries like Korea, Singapore and some western countries I think will try to get a hand on this plane initially.


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## skydrill_2

i think it will be only in russia and india till the next 15 years or so, then they will think of selling it!!

fgfa will be with india but russia may sell t-50 to china and other countries., you never know!


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## Jango

Aeronaut said:


> I always have been a great fan of Flanker's killer looks , even though T-50 is a fine design , one can't match it aesthetically with other Flankers.



The MiGs and the Sukhois are a masterpiece.


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## Jango

Aeronaut said:


> I always have been a great fan of Flanker's killer looks , even though T-50 is a fine design , one can't match it aesthetically with other Flankers.



The MiGs and the Sukhois are a masterpiece.


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## Zabaniyah

Aeronaut said:


> I always have been a great fan of Flanker's killer looks , even though T-50 is a fine design , one can't match it aesthetically with other Flankers.



I don't know, the PAK FA/FGFA have some resemblance to the Flanker. Just like the F-22 has with the F-15. 

Russian fighters....they look bada$$, while at the same time they look beautiful  

A unique combo not found in others.


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## david blain

missiles that can fly backward ? I heard that python-5 can do that


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## sancho

david blain said:


> missiles that can fly backward ? I heard that python-5 can do that



What they mean is missiles that have high off bore sights, to turn and get a lock on targets even behind the fighter. Russian current missiles lack far behind in this area to western like Python V, AIM 9X, Iris-T or MICA for example. Modern missiles are way more maneuverable and can be guided by way more sensors than before and with the 360° situational awareness that atleast FGFA should have, moden missiles must be available too. One reason I hope that the Maitri SAM co-development with French Sagem could be increased to a NG SR - Missile development too. We might have ASTRA development for the BVR range, but must think about the SR too and that co-development would be a logical base.

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## arp2041

skydrill_2 said:


> i think it will be only in russia and india till the next 15 years or so, then they will think of selling it!!
> 
> fgfa will be with india but *russia may sell t-50 to china and other countries*., you never know!



no way, Russia could sell it to China, as this is a JV between India & Russia & any decision of export should have approval from both countries, just like the Brahmos project, btw China is building it's own stealth fighter so why would it need T-50s.


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## DANGER-ZONE

arp2041 said:


> no way, Russia could sell it to China, as this is a JV between India & Russia & any decision of export should have approval from both countries, just like the Brahmos project, btw China is building it's own stealth fighter so why would it need T-50s.



*Having bad dreams !*
FGFA will be joint venture b/w Russia n India not PAK-FA. PAK-FA is sole Russian Fighter like SU-30 where as India produce MKI under licence. Now if Russia can give SU-30 to china then why not PAK-FA. On the other hand China would not like to acquire it because they have several SF in pipeline.

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> What they mean is missiles that have high off bore sights, to turn and get a lock on targets even behind the fighter. *Russian current missiles lack far behind in this area to western like Python V, AIM 9X, Iris-T or MICA for example*. Modern missiles are way more maneuverable and can be guided by way more sensors than before and with the 360° situational awareness that atleast FGFA should have, moden missiles must be available too. One reason I hope that the Maitri SAM co-development with French Sagem could be increased to a NG SR - Missile development too. We might have ASTRA development for the BVR range, but must think about the SR too and that co-development would be a logical base.



You forget that it was Russia who first introduced high off bore sight missile technology with R-73. 

R-73 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Matrixx

danger-zone said:


> *Having bad dreams !*
> FGFA will be joint venture b/w Russia n India not PAK-FA. PAK-FA is sole Russian Fighter like SU-30 where as India produce MKI under licence. Now if Russia can give SU-30 to china then why not PAK-FA. On the other hand China would not like to acquire it because they have several SF in pipeline.



If Russia had to sell PAK-FA they could have sold to India also... there was no need to make FGFA with India....PAK-FA will not be sold to anybody specially to China....if China attacks Russia....Russia would not want to fight with Chinese PAK-FA....China is good in copying so Russia will not sell its latest technology to get copied....


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## MehrotraPrince

danger-zone said:


> *Having bad dreams !*
> FGFA will be joint venture b/w Russia n India not PAK-FA. PAK-FA is sole Russian Fighter like SU-30 where as India produce MKI under licence. Now if Russia can give SU-30 to china then why not PAK-FA. On the other hand China would not like to acquire it because they have several SF in pipeline.



May be you have no detailed knowledge about these two projects.

PAK-FA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (mainly composite materials).
FGFA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (composite materials, two seat design cockpit, certain minor modifications, mission computers and few other avionic sensors).


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## Shadow_Hunter

MehrotraPrince said:


> May be you have no detailed knowledge about these two projects.
> 
> PAK-FA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (mainly composite materials).
> FGFA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (composite materials, two seat design cockpit, certain minor modifications, mission computers and few other avionic sensors).



Actually I believe it is more complicated than that. India was to only work on FGFA. But they also need to work on PAK FA to understanding the basic design as FGFA will be based on PAK FA. Indian funding of PAK FA will be around 35% as told in Russian media.

For FGFA, we will be funding 50% and two prototypes of the aircraft will be developed. Single seater version in Russia & twin seater in India. India will buy around 200 single seater and around 50-60 dual seater version.


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## MehrotraPrince

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Actually I believe it is more complicated than that. India was to only work on FGFA. But they also need to work on PAK FA to understanding the basic design as FGFA will be based on PAK FA.



Its actually too late, we joined the program very lately.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Indian funding of PAK FA will be around 35% as told in Russian media.



Development cost of FGFA is very less as compared to PAk-FA, so unless and until you are 50% financially involved in the project, no one is going to share the engineering and intellectual property in a 50-50 proportion.
Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms


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## Sergi

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Actually I believe it is more complicated than that. India was to only work on FGFA. But they also need to work on PAK FA to understanding the basic design as FGFA will be based on PAK FA. Indian funding of PAK FA will be around 35% as told in Russian media.
> 
> For FGFA, we will be funding 50% and two prototypes of the aircraft will be developed. Single seater version in Russia & twin seater in India. India will buy around 200 single seater and around 50-60 dual seater version.


I am bit confused. I though India and Russia will be having Single seater PAK-FA and Indian 2 seater version of PAK-FA ie FGFA will be for IAF as Russia isn't interested in twin seaters. 
Correct me if I am wrong.


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## DANGER-ZONE

MehrotraPrince said:


> May be you have no detailed knowledge about these two projects.
> 
> *PAK-FA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (mainly composite materials).*
> FGFA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (composite materials, two seat design cockpit, certain minor modifications, mission computers and few other avionic sensors).



Source for your claim.
even the website Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms confirms Indian partnership in project *AFTER FIVE YEARS* for FGFA not PAK-FA.


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## Sergi

danger-zone said:


> Source for your claim.
> even the website Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms confirms Indian partnership in project *AFTER FIVE YEARS* for FGFA not PAK-FA.



Poor reading dude 

The agreement, which was signed at the seventh meeting of the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical



co-operation in Moscow, provides for *joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA*. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA is known for its super-maneuverability, supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defense capabilities. It is described as a rival to the US F-35 Lighting-II Joint Strike Fighter. 

The deal on joint production comes almost five years after the Russians first proposed it. 

India and Russia will have equal financial and technological stakes in the US$10 billion project. "We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50-50 proportion," Sukhoi director-general Mikhail Pogosyan said. *The Indian version of the FGFA would be different from the Russian version because of specific Indian requirements, he said. *

I think I was right in post #840
FGFA is Indian name for twin seater PAK-FA. BTW IAF is going to get both


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> You forget that it was Russia who first introduced high off bore sight missile technology with R-73.
> 
> R-73 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



That's why I said "current" missiles, because those are outdated now and with the financial problems Russia wasn't able to come up with new more capable missiles so far. 




MehrotraPrince said:


> May be you have no detailed knowledge about these two projects.
> 
> PAK-FA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (mainly composite materials).
> FGFA: India is financially (50% funding) involved as well as technologically (composite materials, two seat design cockpit, certain minor modifications, mission computers and few other avionic sensors).



That's not correct! India has no contribution in Pak Fa, since we wanted a customised version developed according to our requirements, that's the FGFA! We paid to get the 50% of the licence and production rights of the general projects, since both versions shares most of the parts anyway, but our version will be FGFA and our contribution in design and techs will be on FGFA as well! 
T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours, but therefor can be inducted earlier (estimated at 2015). While FGFA was always aimed at 2017 the earliers and according recent reports 2019 now.

We will have a say on marketing and sale, since we paid for half of the project, our practical contribution to the project might be between 20 and 30% only and most of that for our version.



Sergi said:


> BTW IAF is going to get both



Most likely they don't, first of all because the single seat doesn't fit to their operational requirements, secondly because it is developed under Russian requirements for techs and materials, thirdly because they don't have to buy Pak Fa in return as many believe, because both versions share many parts, so if IAF orders additional FGFAs Russia will benefit as well.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Most likely they don't, first of all because the single seat doesn't fit to their operational requirements, secondly because it is developed under Russian requirements for techs and materials, thirdly because they don't have to buy Pak Fa in return as many believe, because both versions share many parts, so if IAF orders additional FGFAs Russia will benefit as well.


What's point in making another single seater from existing single seater ??? the electronics and controls can be modified according to IAFs needs in PakFa itself. Why create FGFA for single seat ???


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## skydrill_2

danger-zone said:


> *Having bad dreams !*
> FGFA will be joint venture b/w Russia n India not PAK-FA. PAK-FA is sole Russian Fighter like SU-30 where as India produce MKI under licence. Now if Russia can give SU-30 to china then why not PAK-FA. On the other hand China would not like to acquire it because they have several SF in pipeline.



you are right bro..


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> What's point in making another single seater from existing single seater ??? the electronics and controls can be modified according to IAFs needs in PakFa itself. Why create FGFA for single seat ???



Who said we creat another single seater?


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Who said we creat another single seater?


Sorry I might be ill informed. Please correct me if I am wrong. 
All I know is India is going for Single seater PAK-FA which WE are calling single seater FGFA. India will make twin seater with the help of Russia using PAK-FA as a platform. 
Last I know was IAF wants 40-60 single seaters and 120-160 twin seaters. 
And you said IAF won't get both Pak-FA and FGFA. So a little bit confused.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Sorry I might be ill informed. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> All I know is India is going for Single seater PAK-FA which WE are calling single seater FGFA. India will make twin seater with the help of Russia using PAK-FA as a platform.
> Last I know was IAF wants 40-60 single seaters and 120-160 twin seaters.
> And you said IAF won't get both Pak-FA and FGFA. So a little bit confused.



It's a general confusion, not only yours and it will remain since we get a final confirmation about it. That's actually based on a single report that stated Air Chief Brown would have said something about xxx single and xxx twin seaters. No confirmation about that came from IAF, all official statements said, India goes for the FGFA which always was planned as a twin seater only!

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> It's a general confusion, not only yours and it will remain since we get a final confirmation about it. That's actually based on a single report that stated Air Chief Brown would have said something about xxx single and xxx twin seaters. No confirmation about that came from IAF, all official statements said, India goes for the FGFA which always was planned as a twin seater only!



No conformation or denial from IAF ??? Air chief puts his own words 
I think India will buy PAK-FA too. Hope so.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> No conformation or denial from IAF ??? Air chief puts his own words
> I think India will buy PAK-FA too. Hope so.



No, the media (actually one report, that the other just quoted) said that's what the air marshal said, but it wasn't part of an interview, or official press release or so. Last official statement came from former Airchief Naik last year in an NDTV Interview and he clearly stated 214 x FGFA!

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> That's why I said "current" missiles, because those are outdated now and with the financial problems Russia wasn't able to come up with new more capable missiles so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not correct! India has no contribution in Pak Fa, since we wanted a customised version developed according to our requirements, that's the FGFA! We paid to get the 50% of the licence and production rights of the general projects, since both versions shares most of the parts anyway, but our version will be FGFA and our contribution in design and techs will be on FGFA as well!
> *T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours*, but therefor can be inducted earlier (estimated at 2015). While FGFA was always aimed at 2017 the earliers and according recent reports 2019 now.
> 
> We will have a say on marketing and sale, since we paid for half of the project, our practical contribution to the project might be between 20 and 30% only and most of that for our version.
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely they don't, first of all because the single seat doesn't fit to their operational requirements, secondly because it is developed under Russian requirements for techs and materials, thirdly because they don't have to buy Pak Fa in return as many believe, because both versions share many parts, so if IAF orders additional FGFAs Russia will benefit as well.






People need get one thing straight FGFA will not be more advanced than PAK FA.


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## rockstarIN

Arzamas 16 said:


> People need get one thing straight FGFA will not be more advanced than PAK FA.



There were official news from Russian Sources that IAF wants more than 42 changes in the PAK FA configuration. I believe it is for good only. The same SU-30 MKI way as Russia recently decided to add few Su-30s into its fleet mostly same as MKI.



sancho said:


> No, the media (actually one report, that the other just quoted) said that's what the air marshal said, but it wasn't part of an interview, or official press release or so. Last official statement came from former Airchief Naik last year in an NDTV Interview and he clearly stated 214 x FGFA!



You mean to say the eralier report of early 50 PAK-FA and subsequent 200 FGFAs were wrong? Are we going only for FGFA?


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## Sergi

Arzamas 16 said:


> People need get one thing straight FGFA will not be more advanced than PAK FA.


Poor reading skills. Please read wht you highlight. It's about requirement and not Quality. You need to get that thing straight 

Edit: oh you misunderstood the Bolded statement.... But look like what you understand is correct after reading few posts below
FGFA>Pak-FA


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> People need get one thing straight FGFA will not be more advanced than PAK FA.



From what we know so far it will, because India wants more advanced avionics, more advanced materials and even a more advanced engine. Russia Forces on the other side wants to use some of the Su 35BM base techs for the early Pak Fas, that's why they plan with an induction in 2015, although AESA, avionics, radar blockers, the NG engines and even most weapons (converted to be used in the internal weapon bays) are in early stages of development only. 



rockstar said:


> You mean to say the eralier report of early 50 PAK-FA and subsequent 200 FGFAs were wrong? Are we going only for FGFA?



There was never an official IAF or MoD statement about Pak Fa, other than these "quotes" of Air Marshal Brown. I think it will be similar to the Su 30 deal, where we rejected the early Su 35 and had gone for a customised Su 30 MKI, similarly we might reject the early Pak Fa and go for FGFA again.


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> People need get one thing straight FGFA will not be more advanced than PAK FA.



From what we know so far it will, because India wants more advanced avionics, more advanced materials and even a more advanced engine. Russia Forces on the other side wants to use some of the Su 35BM base techs for the early Pak Fas, that's why they plan with an induction in 2015, although AESA, avionics, radar blockers, the NG engines and even most weapons (converted to be used in the internal weapon bays) are in early stages of development only. 



rockstar said:


> You mean to say the eralier report of early 50 PAK-FA and subsequent 200 FGFAs were wrong? Are we going only for FGFA?



There was never an official IAF or MoD statement about Pak Fa, other than these "quotes" of Air Marshal Brown. I think it will be similar to the Su 30 deal, where we rejected the early Su 35 and had gone for a customised Su 30 MKI, similarly we might reject the early Pak Fa and go for FGFA again.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Sergi said:


> Poor reading dude
> 
> The agreement, which was signed at the seventh meeting of the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical
> 
> 
> 
> co-operation in Moscow, provides for *joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA*. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA is known for its super-maneuverability, supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defense capabilities. It is described as a rival to the US F-35 Lighting-II Joint Strike Fighter.
> 
> The deal on joint production comes almost five years after the Russians first proposed it.
> 
> India and Russia will have equal financial and technological stakes in the US$10 billion project. "We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50-50 proportion," Sukhoi director-general Mikhail Pogosyan said. *The Indian version of the FGFA would be different from the Russian version because of specific Indian requirements, he said. *
> 
> I think I was right in post #840
> FGFA is Indian name for twin seater PAK-FA. BTW IAF is going to get both



I still read FGFA out of Pak-Fa, i guess i am bad in English.
Lets make it simple, Plz help this poor guy with a source that Claims *PAK-FA* is co developed by India & Russia or India has this % contribution in PAK-FA. If you back your claim from Sukhoi official website that might be worthy.

Thanks


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## MehrotraPrince

sancho said:


> That's not correct! India has no contribution in Pak Fa, since we wanted a customised version developed according to our requirements, that's the FGFA! We paid to get the 50% of the licence and production rights of the general projects, since both versions shares most of the parts anyway, but our version will be FGFA and our contribution in design and techs will be on FGFA as well!
> T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours, but therefor can be inducted earlier (estimated at 2015). While FGFA was always aimed at 2017 the earliers and according recent reports 2019 now.
> 
> We will have a say on marketing and sale, since we paid for half of the project, our practical contribution to the project might be between 20 and 30% only and most of that for our version.



You some times deliberately try to put words in others mouth. Where had I written that we have technical contribution in PAK-FA project apart from some composite materials? If funding and composite material is not considered as contribution then what is it?

*and what do you mean by "T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours" this?* are they inferior to us in designing aircraft or their requirement is inferior, their own requirement can be different from ours but not inferior.




sancho said:


> Most likely they don't, first of all because the single seat doesn't fit to their operational requirements, secondly because it is developed under Russian requirements for techs and materials, thirdly because they don't have to buy Pak Fa in return as many believe, because both versions share many parts, so if IAF orders additional FGFAs Russia will benefit as well.


 
I think you wanted to say that single seat version doesn't fit our operational requirement,
Let me tell you one thing which you might know or not, you know why IAF chose two seat version of Su-30 series aircraft? because our requirement was more in terms of avionics, advanced sensors in short electronic equipments, it was increased to such level that it was difficult for single man to handle it and at that time processors were not advanced enough to process every thing on their own so two seat version was preferred + for long range missions two seat version is more effective. But we payed price for that in terms of increase in weight of aircraft, aerodynamic characteristics of aircraft reduced (canard and thrust vectoring engine was added to overcome them and increase maneuverability), operational range decreased and also maximum speed too as compared to basic version of Su-30.

But this will not be the case with PAK-FA, their processor will be powerful enough to process major data on their own thus minimizing the need for second person. We are developing FGFA version just for two reasons:
1. To gain technical experience.
2. For long range missions.

India will be inducting customized PAK-FA in more numbers than FGFA and I don't need to prove it, you will see it in future.

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## Black Widow

danger-zone said:


> I still read FGFA out of Pak-Fa, i guess i am bad in English.
> Lets make it simple, Plz help this poor guy with a source that Claims *PAK-FA* is co developed by India & Russia or India has this % contribution in PAK-FA. If you back your claim from Sukhoi official website that might be worthy.
> 
> Thanks




Let me put it simple, India has not skills to develop 5th gen fighter (in simpler word "humari Aukat nahi hai"). Our engineers are in Russia, they are not teaching russians how to make plane, rather they are learning it. 

The most we can contribute in is "Avionics" and "composite tech" .

Will FGFA be better than PAK-FA??? Its very subjective question, FGFA will be tailor made base don Indian requirement. Off course it will be better than PAK-FA , but only for India. For russia it may not. 

Who will make FGFA?? Most work will be done by russian, some work can be done by Indians. Now you decide who will make FGFA.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Black Widow said:


> Let me put it simple, India has not skills to develop 5th gen fighter (in simpler word "humari Aukat nahi hai"). Our engineers are in Russia, they are not teaching russians how to make plane, rather they are learning it.
> 
> The most we can contribute in is "Avionics" and "composite tech" .
> 
> Will FGFA be better than PAK-FA??? Its very subjective question, FGFA will be tailor made base don Indian requirement. Off course it will be better than PAK-FA , but only for India. For russia it may not.
> 
> Who will make FGFA?? Most work will be done by russian, some work can be done by Indians. Now you decide who will make FGFA.



Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there *Sergi* claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.

I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong


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## danger007

danger-zone said:


> Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there *Sergi* claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.
> 
> I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong




don't come to stupid arguments unless you know fact..... is their any one talking about JF-17 and pakistan contribution.....


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## rockstarIN

MehrotraPrince said:


> *and what do you mean by "T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours" this?* are they inferior to us in designing aircraft or their requirement is inferior, their own requirement can be different from ours but not inferior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you wanted to say that single seat version doesn't fit our operational requirement,
> Let me tell you one thing which you might know or not, you know why IAF chose two seat version of Su-30 series aircraft? because our requirement was more in terms of avionics, advanced sensors in short electronic equipments, it was increased to such level that it was difficult for single man to handle it and at that time processors were not advanced enough to process every thing on their own so two seat version was preferred + for long range missions two seat version is more effective. But we payed price for that in terms of increase in weight of aircraft, aerodynamic characteristics of aircraft reduced (canard and thrust vectoring engine was added to overcome them and increase maneuverability), operational range decreased and also maximum speed too as compared to basic version of Su-30.
> 
> But this will not be the case with PAK-FA, their processor will be powerful enough to process major data on their own thus minimizing the need for second person. We are developing FGFA version just for two reasons:
> 1. To gain technical experience.
> 2. For long range missions.
> 
> India will be inducting customized PAK-FA in more numbers than FGFA and I don't need to prove it, you will see it in future.



Going by your logic only, Indian variant of PAKFA should have 2 guys in it. 

As per our specification we need 360 degree radar coverage, very high bore-sight weapons etc and it is a heavy fighter jet after all for long range missions.

Russian sensor fusion tech.. is not as advanced than west..so better to go with 2 man inside. 

Since



danger-zone said:


> Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there *Sergi* claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.
> 
> *I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong*


 
Russian-Indian work on 5G fighter to go ahead without extra deal | Defense | RIA Novosti

Russian aircraft holding Sukhoi has no plans to sign additional agreements creating a joint venture with its Indian partners in the production of a fifth-generation fighter, the general director said on Friday.

*Russian Sukhoi holding and Indian Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet.
*
Sukhoi head Mikhail Pogosyan had said that an additional agreement would be signed specifying the Indian role in the project, but on Friday he said that the Russian company hoped work would begin soon without any such deal.

*"We don't plan to sign a joint venture. We have agreed on joint work with our Indian colleagues," Pogosyan said.

He said the joint work could be carried out under the current agreement.

"We will do our part of the work, our Indian counterparts theirs," Pogosyan said. "At the initial stage it is not necessary to have a joint venture."*

Earlier, HAL was reported to be seeking a 25% share in design and development in the project.

Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.

Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.

PARIS, June 11 (RIA Novosti)

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## sancho

MehrotraPrince said:


> Where had I written that we have technical contribution in PAK-FA project apart from some composite materials?



Exactly in the part of the composite materials, because Pak Fa has no Indian composites included! Our funding was needed to keep the whole development going on, since Russia alone can't pay for it. So they are dependend on our money, just as we are on their technical knowhow and experience and why we try to get any ToT and input we can get, while they try to get bit of more money from us (offer to co-develop NG engine, offer to co-develop naval version). It's a give and take, but as long as both partners benefits at the end it's good.



MehrotraPrince said:


> and what do you mean by "T50 and the early Pak Fa versions will be developed only for Russian requirements, which could be lower than ours" this?



See post #835




MehrotraPrince said:


> But this will not be the case with PAK-FA, their processor will be powerful enough to process major data on their own thus minimizing the need for second person.



You explanation about why we went to Su 30 is fully correct and the same reasons are even more important for FGFA! Once because the ammount of informations and actions the pilot has to deal with will increase, not get lower. FGFA will have more sensors (active and passive), more capabilities, more roles to play, but will be used in the same long range/long endurance roles as the Su 30s. That's why the 2nd pilot was the prefered choice for IAF again, or the French gets more twin seat Rafale than single seat with their increased sensor capabilities, or why Israel and other F35 operators asked for a twin seater F35 version as the prefered version too.

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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong



Basically you can compare this development project with the JF 17. India and Pakistan are minor partners in terms of contribution to these projects, but equal in terms of licences and rights, that's why both of our countries would benefit from exports of these fighters too. Also similar is, that PAF gets a customised version according to it's requirements (indigenous avionics, some other weapons), while China might use a fully Chinese version and the same goes for Pak Fa / FGFA.

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## Black Widow

danger-zone said:


> Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there *Sergi* claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.
> 
> I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong




I don't know in what context Sergi told it, He is a respectable member in PDF, Better he reply to your query. But if yo throw the same question to me, My answer will be

Yes you are right, FGFA is tailor made for India, We all know India has no capability to match Russian design bureau, We have shared the development cost, Our Engineers are there, May be they are learning. May be they are giving some Ideas, we don't know.

Your second point is also right, Russia can sell it to any country (except which hurt India). No Indian permission is needed. FGFA is not like Brahmos (where INdian contribution is major) neither its like MiG29K (where our contribution is NULL). Its like MKI (Slightly more than that coz we are co-funding projects and we are partner from beginning.)


India can gain the knowledge, which we can put into AMCA... (Icing on the cake)


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## Sergi

danger-zone said:


> Bro I know about FGFA, it will be more like your tailored product similar to MKI, But the guy up there *Sergi* claimed that India contributed in PAK-FA. This Claim is like if Indian had Co-developed SU-30 instead of MKI.
> 
> I say PAK-FA is Sole Russian jet and FGFA would be Different version for India. If Russia want to cell PAK-FA to any other country (Excluding Pakistan, China etc.) it may not require India's permission, as common Indian fan boy use to claim. Prove me wrong



Please show me where I claim India's contribution ??? I was under impression that IAF will go for PAK-FA too. That's it. 
If you get it wrong let me put it again. 
PAK-FA project is funded by India and Russia 50/50. 
As far as we know right now is Russia go for PAK-FA only and INDIA go for FAGA based on PAK-FA. 
Only contribution India is doing in the project right now is Funding. Nothing else

All I want to say to you in that particular post was if India funded project Russia might not go against Indian interests.



Black Widow said:


> I don't know in what context Sergi told it, He is a respectable member in PDF, Better he reply to your query. But if yo throw the same question to me, My answer will be
> 
> Yes you are right, FGFA is tailor made for India, We all know India has no capability to match Russian design bureau, We have shared the development cost, Our Engineers are there, May be they are learning. May be they are giving some Ideas, we don't know.
> 
> Your second point is also right, Russia can sell it to any country (except which hurt India). No Indian permission is needed. FGFA is not like Brahmos (where INdian contribution is major) neither its like MiG29K (where our contribution is NULL). Its like MKI (Slightly more than that coz we are co-funding projects and we are partner from beginning.)
> 
> 
> India can gain the knowledge, which we can put into AMCA... (Icing on the cake)


I wasn't claming anything. I was asking as I was bit confused. That's it.


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## Sergi

Sergi said:


> Poor reading dude
> 
> The agreement, which was signed at the seventh meeting of the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical
> 
> 
> 
> co-operation in Moscow, provides for *joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA*. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA is known for its super-maneuverability, supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defense capabilities. It is described as a rival to the US F-35 Lighting-II Joint Strike Fighter.
> 
> The deal on joint production comes almost five years after the Russians first proposed it.
> 
> India and Russia will have equal financial and technological stakes in the US$10 billion project. "We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50-50 proportion," Sukhoi director-general Mikhail Pogosyan said. *The Indian version of the FGFA would be different from the Russian version because of specific Indian requirements, he said. *
> 
> I think I was right in post #840
> FGFA is Indian name for twin seater PAK-FA. BTW IAF is going to get both


@danger-zone: if you are reffering this post. I recommend you read it again  and also read the last line of the post. 

Again all I have to say is T-50 is a prototype for PAK-FA. India is funding it's development and learning from it. It's all Russian. Outcome will be PAK-FA. That outcome will be used to make FGFA. So it's it logical that Russia won't export PAK-FA against Indian interests. 
And where I CLAIM contribution here  I just point out your quote in post #821

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## Arzamas 16

> Exactly in the part of the composite materials, because Pak Fa has no Indian composites included!* Our funding was needed to keep the whole development going on, since Russia alone can't pay for it.* So they are dependend on our money, just as we are on their technical knowhow and experience and why we try to get any ToT and input we can get, while they try to get bit of more money from us (offer to co-develop NG engine, offer to co-develop naval version). It's a give and take, but as long as both partners benefits at the end it's good






> *The Bulava program is the most expensive weapons project in Russia*



RSM-56 Bulava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bulava SLBM project is more expensive than PAK FA project, and yes Russia is paying for it alone,* PAK DA Stealth bomber program* a project that is 100% guaranteed to be more expensive than PAK FA and Russia again is paying for it alone. So the idea that we can't pay for PAK FA alone is B.S.


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## Black Widow

Arzamas 16 said:


> RSM-56 Bulava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Bulava SLBM project is more expensive than PAK FA project, and yes Russia is paying for it alone,*PAK DA Stealth bomber program* a project that is 100% guaranteed to be more expensive than PAK FA and Russia again is paying for it alone. So the idea that we can't pay for PAK FA alone is B.S.


 



Don't take it on ego, we know russia can, but what's problem if india can share half cost? its like win win situation. happy day for russia happy day for india.



@ sergi: thanks for clearing your views, hope fellow member get your view. I would like to add something. I personally know that indian engineers are there in sukhoi design beuroe, what i don't know is whether they are working or learning. or learning through work? hope some one can clear it.


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> RSM-56 Bulava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Bulava SLBM project is more expensive than PAK FA project, and yes Russia is paying for it alone,* PAK DA Stealth bomber program* a project that is 100% guaranteed to be more expensive than PAK FA and Russia again is paying for it alone. So the idea that we can't pay for PAK FA alone is B.S.



It might be hard to take, but Russia is not the Soviet Union anymore, therfor has neither the financial, nor technical capability that were available in the past. That's one reason why the Nerpa SSN production couldn't be finished without Indian funding and then was leased to us, why Indian money was needed to pay workers at Phazothron to keep Zhuk ME radar production alive, why Indian funding was needed for further development and testing of Mig 29Ks, of which Indian navy not Russian navy is the main customer and so on. Russia or Russian forces benefits a lot from Indian fundings too, without these you couldn't fund project like those you mentioned that can't be shared with others.
Wrt Pak Fa, Russia had plans for the developments for decades, but couldn't fund the full project alone (so far we only see prototype stage), that's why not only India, but also Brazil and even S. Korea were approached to be partners in the project. Especially Brazil was prefered, with a sale of Su 35 now and a co-development of Pak Fa for the future and the reason for both is the same, because Russias financial capability is too low to order high numbers of Su 35s or to develop such an expensive development alone. Add this to the co-development offers for NG engine, or the naval version to India (besides that Russia offer co-developments for AESA radar of LCA, new helicopter and MBT co-developments too) and you will understand that Russia needs partners like in Soviet times to fund new projects, or even to have enough money to keep operating such a large ammount of troops.

However, that's a side note and as long as both countries benefits from it, I don't mind.

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## MehrotraPrince

sancho said:


> It might be hard to take, but Russia is not the Soviet Union anymore, therfor has neither the financial, nor technical capability that were available in the past. That's one reason why the Nerpa SSN production couldn't be finished without Indian funding and then was leased to us, why Indian money was needed to pay workers at Phazothron to keep Zhuk ME radar production alive, why Indian funding was needed for further development and testing of Mig 29Ks, of which Indian navy not Russian navy is the main customer and so on. Russia or Russian forces benefits a lot from Indian fundings too, without these you couldn't fund project like those you mentioned that can't be shared with others.
> Wrt Pak Fa, Russia had plans for the developments for decades, but couldn't fund the full project alone (so far we only see prototype stage), that's why not only India, but also Brazil and even S. Korea were approached to be partners in the project. Especially Brazil was prefered, with a sale of Su 35 now and a co-development of Pak Fa for the future and the reason for both is the same, because Russias financial capability is too low to order high numbers of Su 35s or to develop such an expensive development alone. Add this to the co-development offers for NG engine, or the naval version to India (besides that Russia offer co-developments for AESA radar of LCA, new helicopter and MBT co-developments too) and you will understand that Russia needs partners like in Soviet times to fund new projects, or even to have enough money to keep operating such a large ammount of troops.
> 
> However, that's a side note and as long as both countries benefits from it, I don't mind.



Yes, it is the same reason why projects like Su-47 and Mig 1.44 which started around early 1980's (same time as F-22) never matured to production level and just stopped as a technology demonstrator, at that time Russia was neck to neck with USA.

This economic crisis forced Russian government to take some drastic steps in order to save their aircraft industries. They started exporting latest high-tech equipments to other countries, Russian Knights started aerobatic demonstration in airshows so as to maintain their flying skills, to maintain minimum flying hours and gain some monetary benefits. Even foreigners were allowed to have joy ride in their Mig's and Sukhoi's for $ 15000. Programs like Su-27 M and Mig-29 M was stopped for some time and was later revived when India showed interest and provided funding.

But time has started to change and now they are funding many of their projects on their own, one such example is PAK-DA.

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> It might be hard to take, but Russia is not the Soviet Union anymore, therfor has neither the financial, nor technical capability that were available in the past. That's one reason why the Nerpa SSN production couldn't be finished without Indian funding and then was leased to us, why Indian money was needed to pay workers at Phazothron to keep Zhuk ME radar production alive, why Indian funding was needed for further development and testing of Mig 29Ks, of which Indian navy not Russian navy is the main customer and so on. Russia or Russian forces benefits a lot from Indian fundings too, without these you couldn't fund project like those you mentioned that can't be shared with others.
> Wrt Pak Fa, Russia had plans for the developments for decades, but couldn't fund the full project alone (so far we only see prototype stage), that's why not only India, but also Brazil and even S. Korea were approached to be partners in the project. Especially Brazil was prefered, with a sale of Su 35 now and a co-development of Pak Fa for the future and the reason for both is the same, because Russias financial capability is too low to order high numbers of Su 35s or to develop such an expensive development alone. Add this to the co-development offers for NG engine, or the naval version to India (besides that Russia offer co-developments for AESA radar of LCA, new helicopter and MBT co-developments too) and you will understand that Russia needs partners like in Soviet times to fund new projects, or even to have enough money to keep operating such a large ammount of troops.
> 
> However, that's a side note and as long as both countries benefits from it, I don't mind.




Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for Military modernization in the next 8 years, but some how we can't fund 10 billion dollar project, yeah * nice logic their ace*. 


Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion

Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion 


You are right we aren't the USSR anymore, in *a 3 years time our economy is going to bigger than Soviet Union's at its peak.*


The reason why I didn't post numbers for 1990 and 1991 is because from 1989 onward USSR GDP started to decrease.

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## Black Widow

> Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion
> 
> Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion





Can you give the figure after Adjusting Inflation??? Bcoz 1.8 trillion in 1989 is not equals to 1.8 trillion in 2011...


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## Sergi

Arzamas 16 said:


> Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for Military modernization in the next 8 years, but some how we can't fund 10 billion dollar project, yeah * nice logic their ace*.
> 
> 
> Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion
> 
> Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion
> 
> 
> You are right we aren't the USSR anymore, in *a 3 years time our economy is going to bigger than Soviet Union's at its peak.*
> 
> 
> The reason why I didn't post numbers for 1990 and 1991 is because from 1989 onward USSR GDP started to decrease.


hahaah you are taking it too much personal 
Ok. We agree Russia has money and technology ( BTW there is a term BASE YEAR in economics give it a try )
So what's your point ??? Russia has money and tech then why T-50 was in prototype only ??? Developing PAK-FA on own and then selling it to India would have been more profitable why JV ??? 
Russia has alot of Projects which are lacking findings. Even if Russia have 2 trillion Russia can't invest out of proportion in Defence research. That what Soviat Union did and break apart. A nation has other need too. And Govt have to look in to them as well. 

Let me be clear, even though Russia has money it's not possible to run all projects on its own. 
Look at the figures you given 700 Billions in 8 years ie 87/88 billions per year only. 
Now calculate the regular requirements and expenditure of all armed forces + modernisation. 
And now tell me what's the amount available per year for Defence reasearch programmes. 
Sharing cost is economical and the incoming funds can speed up projects.

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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for *Military modernization in the next 8 years*



 As I said, it might be hard to take, but I am talking about the *current reality and the situation of the last few years when Pak Fa development was started*. And the military spending for modernisation is actually not that much, when you keep in mind how big Russian forces are and how badly older aircrafts, vessels and vehicles needs upgrades or replacements. I could give you even more examples, but lets simply leave it at that.


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## Dash

Arzamas 16 said:


> Yes we are spending 700 billion dollars for Military modernization in the next 8 years, but some how we can't fund 10 billion dollar project, yeah * nice logic their ace*.
> 
> 
> Soviet Union GDP of 1989 2.659 trillion
> 
> Russian GDP of 2011 $1.885 trillion
> 
> 
> You are right we aren't the USSR anymore, in *a 3 years time our economy is going to bigger than Soviet Union's at its peak.*
> 
> 
> The reason why I didn't post numbers for 1990 and 1991 is because from 1989 onward USSR GDP started to decrease.



Brother, please do not get personal here. To be honest India has learnt and received a lot from Russia and as we speak now, the status quo hasnt changed much. We dont have knowledge but you hence we try to partner with yous wherever we think its necessary.

But the fact is that you wanted a partner in PAKFA project and India was approached to share the developemental cost but we rejected it and thats when you went ahead and froze the final design. You approached us again and we agreed to go with it.

Whatever may be the reason for you to look for a partner in PAKFA, but the fact is that you approached us and thats what my fellow Indian brothers are pointing out here and We are not saying that you are incapable of developing anything on your own.


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## arp2041

*India-related news updates from Russia's military aviation industry [T-50 PAK-FA FGFA]*

The third prototype of the T-50 PAK-FA [T-50-3] commenced flight testing on June 21, 2012.

Around 130 cumulative test flights have been completed by the PAK-FA prototypes. The 100th test-flight milestone was reached in around a year of the maiden flight of the first prototype - indicates a active testing programme.

The fourth prototype aircraft is being assembled and is expected to be ready for test flights in around the months of September-November [Autumn, as mentioned]. Unlike the earlier prototypes, which were taken from the factory to the location of flight test on-board transport aircrafts, the fourth prototype is expected to make the journey on its own - indicates confidence on part of the developers of its safety & reliability.

Two more T-50 PAK-FA prototype aircraft would join the flight test programme in 2013. A total of 14 prototypes would be involved in flight tests by 2015.

Around 60 production standard aircrafts are planned to be built between 2016-2020.

Preliminary design of the the Indian variant of the aircraft - the twin-seat Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft [FGFA]], is to be submitted this summer [Preliminary design phase of the FGFA was to end by June 2012].

Tikhomirov AESA Radar for the T-50 PAK-FA & FGFA

The third prototype has been equipped with the Tikhomirov-NIIP AESA radar being developed for the fighter - the first AESA radar to be fitted on any prototype. Having undergone ground tests, mated to the aircraft, flight test of the AESA radar is expected to commence by the end of 2012.

Tikhomirov-NIIP has been appointed the primary contractor for the development of an AESA radar for the FGFA too.

Other Radars

Tikhomirov-NIIP has proposed replacing the current radar equipping the IAF's Su-30 MKIs with an AESA variant. A positive response to this isn't yet forthcoming from India, thus far.

The BARS Phased Array radar mounted on IAF Flakers too are assembled in India.

The improved RD-33 Series-3 engine that would power the IAF's upgraded MiG-29 aircrafts [MiG-29UPG] would arrive in India in the form of knocked down kits [CKD], that would then be assembled in the country. Of the 120 engines contracted for, around 60 units have been supplied.

Radar on-board the Indian Navy's MiG-29K is identified as the Zhuk-ME FGM-129, whereas the ones to equip the Air Force's MiG-29UPG is the Zhuk-ME FGM-229.

Miscellaneous

The Russian Mi-26T2 that is bidding for the Indian Air Force's heavy-lift helicopter contract is said to have exceeded all requirements & has impressed the potential end-users,
"The potential customer is rather pleased with its assessment, and experts deem the Mi-26T2&#8217;s chances for winning in the Indian tender as high.

"We demonstrated the helicopter to the potential customer and it exceeded almost all the requirements, including operations in mountainous regions", told the General Designer of the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant Alexey Samusenko. "Indian pilots, admitted to the flight tests, highly prized the upgraded helicopter, especially its new avionics."

The IAF presently operates around 3 older variants of these helicopters, of the 4 that were originally acquired.

The Russian Air Force [RuAF] is to induct 30 Sukhoi Su-30SM fighter aircrafts, starting 2013. The Su-30SM is a variant of the Indian Air Force's [IAF] Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter, presently license manufactured in India.

Following the Indian Navy's acquisition, the Russian Navy too has placed orders for 24 MiG-29K/KUB [20 Ks + 4 KUBs] aircraft for its sole Aircraft Carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov.

These examples of the Russian military deciding to induct two platforms that have seen prior service with India - the Su-30MKI & MiG-29K/KUB, perhaps, points to two points - validation of India's buying decisions [the Flankers & Fulcrums] & economies of scale leading to lower acquisition cost for the Russians [the MiG-29].

India-related news updates from Russia&#39;s military aviation industry [T-50 PAK-FA FGFA] - AA Me, IN

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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> Preliminary design of the the Indian variant of the aircraft - the *twin-seat* Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft [FGFA]], is to be submitted this summer [Preliminary design phase of the FGFA was to end by June 2012].



Which would confirm my point that IAF don't get single seat versions.




arp2041 said:


> Tikhomirov-NIIP has proposed replacing the current radar equipping the IAF's Su-30 MKIs with an AESA variant. A positive response to this isn't yet forthcoming from India, thus far.



Interesting, still no decision about the AESA.




arp2041 said:


> The Russian Mi-26T2 that is bidding for the Indian Air Force's heavy-lift helicopter contract is said to have exceeded all requirements & has impressed the potential end-users,
> "The potential customer is rather pleased with its assessment, and experts deem the Mi-26T2&#8217;s chances for winning in the Indian tender as high.
> 
> "We demonstrated the helicopter to the potential customer and it exceeded almost all the requirements, including operations in mountainous regions", told the General Designer of the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant Alexey Samusenko. "Indian pilots, admitted to the flight tests, highly prized the upgraded helicopter, especially its new avionics."



Sounds good, but the performance advantages shouldn't be surprising, the key will be the logistics and maintenance support!


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## arp2041

sancho said:


> Which would confirm my point that IAF don't get single seat versions.



well i have a strong feeling that IAF will go for 50-60 single seater PAK-FA, since it would be in tremendous pressure by induction of the Chinese stealth fighter around 2018 or so + if IAF is not able to induct LCA in large nos. by than + we should also take the worst case scenario into consideration which is mmrca nos. by 2018 does not turn up as per plans. This situation will make IAF left with no choice but to induct decent nos. of PAK-FA's. which would be ready by that time but FGFA will only be inducted in early 2020's, this will be same case as the su-30 deal of late 90's when IAF inducted it's early variant before MKI came to fruition, now IAF has demanded replacement for the earlier su-30s, same can be done with PAK-FA later.


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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> well i have a strong feeling that IAF will go for 50-60 single seater PAK-FA, since it would be in tremendous pressure by induction of the Chinese stealth fighter around 2018 or so + if IAF is not able to induct LCA in large nos. by than + we should also take the worst case scenario into consideration which is mmrca nos. by 2018 does not turn up as per plans. This situation will make IAF left with no choice but to induct decent nos. of PAK-FA's. which would be ready by that time but FGFA will only be inducted in early 2020's, this will be same case as the su-30 deal of late 90's when IAF inducted it's early variant before MKI came to fruition, now IAF has demanded replacement for the earlier su-30s, same can be done with PAK-FA later.



That were twin seater Su 30s too and just a single squad, not to mention that it's must be seen first how fast China will have a 5th gen fighter operational and where it will be deployed, or of Pak Fa will be available by 2016 like the Russians plan. All in all, waaay too many ifs, so barely speculation.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> That were twin seater Su 30s too and just a single squad, not to mention that it's must be seen first how fast China will have a 5th gen fighter operational and where it will be deployed, or of Pak Fa will be available by 2016 like the Russians plan. All in all, waaay too many ifs, so barely speculation.



We should go for AMCA like how Russians are doing for their PAK-FA. 

We should get the AMCA prototypes flying by 2016-17 period, even if it is not ready at all. They took time from Su-27 to Su-35, similar way we should develop AMCA instead of going for single engines PAK-FAs. PAKFA & Rafale should be the last jets we induct to IAF, next time all should be indigenous.


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## DrSomnath999

Here is an extract from a technical paper from Ufa State Aviation University (&#1059;&#1092;&#1072;: &#1059;&#1043;&#1040;&#1058;&#1059 regarding the development of the next generation engine (by referring to the "fifth generation engine"- it is, by all accounts, referring to the PAK-FA stage 2 engine in all but name), dated 2008:

QUOTE:


> &#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1082;&#1072; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1091;&#1077;&#1090; &#1089;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1080; &#1080;&#1089;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1079;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1093; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074; &#1089; &#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1095;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;&#1102; &#8212;&#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1080;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074; (&#1050;&#1052 &#1085;&#1072; &#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1088;&#1080;&#1094;&#1077;. &#1042;&#1060;&#1043;&#1059;&#1055; &#1053;&#1055;&#1055; «&#1052;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;» &#1086;&#1090;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1072;&#1090;&#1099;&#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080;&#1089;&#1100; &#1074;&#1086;&#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1099; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1082;&#1080; &#1083;&#1086;&#1087;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;&#1082; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1089;&#1086;&#1088;&#1072; &#1080;&#1079; &#1050;&#1052; (B-Mg), &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080;&#1089;&#1100; &#1086;&#1073;&#1096;&#1080;&#1088;&#1085;&#1099;&#1077; &#1101;&#1082;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1099;&#1077; &#1080;&#1089;&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;&#1076;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1087;&#1086; &#1086;&#1094;&#1077;&#1085;&#1082;&#1077; &#1084;&#1077;&#1093;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1093; &#1093;&#1072;&#1088;&#1072;&#1082;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;&#1082; &#1050;&#1052; &#1085;&#1072; &#1086;&#1073;&#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1094;&#1072;&#1093; &#1080; &#1084;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;&#1093; &#1083;&#1086;&#1087;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;&#1082; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1074;&#1080;&#1076;&#1072;&#1093; &#1085;&#1072;&#1075;&#1088;&#1091;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1080; &#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1101;&#1082;&#1089;&#1087;&#1083;&#1091;&#1072;&#1090;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1089;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1072;&#8230;
> 
> ...&#1042; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080; &#1056;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1080; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1086;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1103;&#1074;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082;&#1080;&#1077; &#1079;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;, &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1084;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077;&#1088;&#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1103; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; 4++ &#1080; &#1089;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072;&#1091;&#1095;&#1085;&#1086;-&#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1079;&#1072;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1082;&#1080; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;.
> 
> Development of the next-generation engine requires the creation and use of new materials with high specific strength, composite materials (cm) on a metal matrix. VFGUP NPP Motor undertook the development of compressor blades from composite materials (Mg-B), carried out extensive experimental study on evaluation of the mechanical characteristics of the samples and models of fan blades with different types of loading and operating characteristics of the material&#8230;
> 
> ...the Russian aircraft engine industry has prioritised tasks such as upgrading engines of 4++ (generation) and the establishment of scientific and technological solutions to develop fifth-generation engines.
> http://www.ugatu.ac.ru/publish/vu/stat/UGATU-2008-2(29)/07.pdf



So what they're talking about is developing a fan-blade composed of what they call 'Meta-Composites', in this case a magnesium matrix reinforced with boron-carbon fibre composite. This would replace the Titanium superalloy 1st stage of the compressor.



Here is a Chinese technical paper on magnesium (Mg) alloys which it describes as possessing "special radar-absorption characteristics, low density and high rigidity&#8230;".
Quote:


> &#1042; &#1054;&#1040;&#1054; «&#1053;&#1055;&#1055; «&#1052;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;» &#1089;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1072; &#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1095;&#1072;&#1103; &#1083;&#1086;&#1087;&#1072;&#1090;&#1082;&#1072; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1090;&#1091;&#1087;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;-
> &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1089;&#1086;&#1088;&#1072; &#1043;&#1058;&#1044; &#1085;&#1072; &#1086;&#1089;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077; &#1084;&#1072;&#1075;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1088;&#1080;&#1094;&#1099;, &#1072;&#1088;&#1084;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1080; &#1091;&#1075;&#1083;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1082;&#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080;.
> 
> OAO "NPP" Motor " have established a working fan-blade of the [engine] compressor's first stage based on a magnesium matrix, reinforced boron (Mg-B) and carbon fibre composite.
> http://www.ugatu.ac.ru/science/dissov/d5/27.04.12/nusratullin_avtoreferat.pdf



So it appears to be a very high-tech and elegant solution, also involved in composite fan blade development are FGUP TsIAM and FGUP VIAM (&#1060;&#1043;&#1059;&#1055; &#1062;&#1048;&#1040;&#1052; & &#1060;&#1043;&#1059;&#1055; &#1042;&#1048;&#1040;&#1052, these are big on nanotech, so I guess the final composition will be very interesting indeed!

*COURTESY :JO ASAKURA
THANK U FOR THE INFO MATE*

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## Abingdonboy

Any idea whether the TVC will kick after a certain AoA is surpassed (like on F-22) or whether the TVC will be initiated by a the pilot whenever they like? And will there be covers to direct the thrust/hide the IR signature (like F-22) or be unexposed like on previous gen fighters?


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## redpearl_75

As far as I know or we all know that the FGFA will be caple of deploying TVC capability whenever the pilot would intend to use it and even during normal flight.. Moreover AL-41F1A possibly being used by FGFA offers a 3 dimentional TVC giving both horizental as well as virtical lift whereas Raptor with Pratt & Whitney F119 gives only the virtical TVC which is 2D. IAF uses MKIs and is employed with the TVC and is used in normal flights as well and its not that, if the aircraft reaches its AoA limit then it kicks in.. Im not sure but Russian jets have that capacity that makes maneuverability its key factor...


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## DrSomnath999

Abingdonboy said:


> Any idea whether the TVC will kick after a certain AoA is surpassed (like on F-22) or whether the TVC will be initiated by a the pilot whenever they like? And will there be covers to direct the thrust/hide the IR signature (like F-22) or be unexposed like on previous gen fighters?


see no body can answer those questions right now about those stealth nozzles until & unless we see product 30 installed in
PAK-FA .We have to wait 
that's it

Regarding TVC the problem if we go for stealth nozzles then we have to content with 2 axis TVC but if we go for round nozzles then we can have 2.5 /3 axis TVC

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## arp2041

*Fifth generation fighters provide air superiority*

According to American Air force officials "The F-22 is better than any other aircraft in the world at air-to-ground except for the F-35, and the F-35 is better than any other aircraft in the world at air-to-air except for the F-22".

The American Air Force with the integration of fifth generation aircraft is gaining new tactical advantages that transcend beyond just stealth into areas such as enhanced maneuverability, multi-role capabilities and fused sensor and avionics systems that can communicate with other weapons systems.

That's why it is imperative that U.S. forces continue to develop and begin to use fifth-generation fighters as they transition to the new Pacific-based strategy, according to Lt. Gen. Herbert J. "Hawk" Carlisle, Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, Plans and Requirements, Headquarters U.S. Air Force.

"The threat environment is continuing to grow, so as we look at how we're going to maintain those competencies in the future, that's where fifth generation fighters come in," he said in mid-March. "It's not just about stealth."

The general said the Air Force can continue to maintain the most elite fourth generation aircraft in the world, but that won't prepare the U.S. to handle threats in the future.

"Our Air Force has got to keep evolving to meet these new challenges as we move forward into the future," said Carlisle.

To illustrate this evolution and fifth generation fighter jet technology, the general shared a scenario in which an F-22 data-links coordinates to a Navy submarine-launched tomahawk missile onto a target.

"Now you have two stealth platforms, a submarine and an F-22, communicating with naval ordnance," he said.

That level of interoperability is a large part of what makes the fifth generation Aircraft so vital to the Air Force and U.S. military in general, he added. Aircraft must not only be stealth, but also be highly maneuverable, be able to conduct multiple roles, and these aircraft must also be able to handle sensor and avionics information in a network integrated way not only for the pilot, but for the entire joint force.

"We have to have a fused system capability and have them networked and integrated across the force," he said. "To me, that's as important on a fifth-generation fighter as anything."

To tell the truth Russia has not found itself far behind the States/ more than two years ago- on December, 2010, a prototype Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter took off on its maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Russia's Far East.

This is the first warplane completely designed and built in Russia since the break-up of the Soviet Union. Only the United States currently operates Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor Stealth air-superiority fighters.

In 1981, the Mikoyan Design Bureau started developing the I-90 aircraft, better known as the Multifunctional Fighter (MFI). The project was launched soon after the MiG-29 Fulcrum, MiG-31 Foxhound and Su-27 Flanker fourth-generation fighters performed their first flights.

The I-90 which was to have been mass-produced in the 1990s overtook the U.S. Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program which later gave rise to the F-22 Raptor.

Curtailed defense spending in the late 1980s and the subsequent break-up of the Soviet Union stopped the MFI program in its tracks. Flight tests planned for 1991 -1992 did not take place. Consequently, the MFI first took to the skies in 2000.

A prototype Sukhoi S-37/Su-47 Berkut fifth-generation fighter had been developed by then.

In 1998, the Russian Air Force issued a new request for proposal (RFP) for a fifth-generation fighter. As a concept it had remained unchanged since the MFI program got underway.

The new fighter's basic specifications included: greater agility, sustained supersonic-flight capability in non-afterburning mode, low radar visibility, low heat signature, as well as enhanced take-off and landing performance.The old designs were scrapped, and it was decided to develop an entirely new warplane fully taking into account the F-22's capabilities, merits and drawbacks.

In 2002, the Sukhoi Design Bureau won the pilot-project contest, after proposing a full-size and twin-engined fighter with a take-off weight of up to 35 metric tons under its Prospective/Promising Frontline Aviation System program (PAK FA program).

Although the new aircraft was expected to take off in 2007, the maiden flight deadline was delayed until 2008, 2009 and January 2010.

Given this new program's complexity and the scale of the scientific, engineering, organizational and financial problems that had to be tackled during the new plane's creation, this delay is quite understandable. All these problems are caused by Russia's crisis-ridden industry.

The new aircraft is designated the T-50, Product 701 or the I-21. The Indian Air Force also displayed an interest in this program soon after it was launched.

At first, New Delhi preferred the lighter and simpler Mikoyan-Gurevich MFI fighter. The Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG proposed the twin-engine and bobtailed I-2000, an upgrade of the basic MiG-29 model, and a single-engine aircraft closely resembling the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, a descendant of the F-35, which came out of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program.

India wanted to receive this sophisticated aircraft as soon as possible therefore had no choice but to join the PAK FA program. The Indian version will feature a two-seat cockpit, a number of electronic systems and other auxiliary equipment.

These aircraft are expected to replace the Su-30MKI Flanker-H fighters currently serving with the Indian Air Force, in the 2020s and the 2030s. Moreover, it is likely they will be mass-produced in India.

The latest test flight reaffirms Russia's status as a leading aviation power. Only Russia and the United States currently have their own fifth-generation fighters, as well as aircraft industries capable of manufacturing all types of military and civilian aircraft ranging from light-weight aerobatic planes to strategic bombers.

All other countries, including France, Sweden, the EU as a whole, China and Japan, lack these capabilities and are forced to implement various cooperation plans in order to develop new-generation aircraft.

Despite their combined efforts the joint EU aircraft industry has failed to create a fifth-generation fighter in place of the Eurofighter Typhoon twin-engine multi-role aircraft. Most of the Eurofighter project participants intend to buy the U.S. F-35 fighter in future.

The future for new Swedish and French aircraft remains bleak. Both the Saab JAS 39 Gripen and the Dassault Rafale rank among the generation four-plus-plus warplanes. Neither Stockholm, nor Paris can afford to implement multi-billion-dollar fifth-generation fighter programs.

China's prospects also seem doubtful. Most analysts agree that Beijing can develop a fifth-generation warplane only if it utilizes foreign, notably Russian, experience.

Russian aircraft manufacturers must develop at least two competitive prototypes of a fifth-generation fighter jet, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in mid-March.

&#8220;Two variants of the future fighter jet must be developed to encourage competition,&#8221; Rogozin said at a meeting with Russian lawmakers.

According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the future fighter must possess all technical characteristics of a fifth-generation fighter, including elements of stealth technology, supersonic cruising speed, highly-integrated avionics, electronics and fire-control systems.

There are currently three fifth-generation T-50 fighters in tests, and a total number of 14 aircraft is planned for test flights by 2015.

The T-50 is expected to enter service in 2016 and gradually replace MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker fighter jets in the Russian Air Force.

Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi aircraft maker will remain among the top three exporters of fighter jets until at least 2015, the Moscow based Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade (CAWAT) said this Februaryon.

&#8220;Sukhoi will export 109 fighters in the next three years, while U.S. Lockheed Martin exports110 aircraft, and China&#8217;s Chengdu -112 aircraft,&#8221; CAWAT head Igor Korotchenko said.

The total amount of Sukhoi fighter contracts with foreign customers until 2015 is estimated at $5.45 billion.

Fifth generation fighters provide air superiority | Russia & India Report


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## Dash

DrSomnath999 said:


> see no body can answer those questions right now about those stealth nozzles until & unless we see product 30 installed in
> PAK-FA .We have to wait
> that's it
> 
> Regarding TVC the problem if we go for stealth nozzles then we have to content with 2 axis TVC but if we go for round nozzles then we can have 2.5 /3 axis TVC



That is a hexagonal nuzzle version and not a rectangular one. a hexa nuzzle like the one shown in this pic can support 3D thurst vectoring....

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## KRAIT

^ Is this model is confirmed one ????


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## Dash

check out the rectangular nozzle of Raptor. no where close to hexa nozzles...








KRAIT said:


> ^ Is this model is confirmed one ????



Till date its only speculation, and its not yet confirmed, however its most likely to be the last modification that will be done to PAKFA with an option that if Russians dont go for this, it might feature in FGFA.

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## dbc

DrSomnath999 said:


> Regarding TVC the problem if we go for stealth nozzles then we have to content with 2 axis TVC but if we go for round nozzles then we can have 2.5 /3 axis TVC




The current production F-22 nozzle was designed for multi-axis vectoring including thrust reversal. It was successfully tested but it never made it to the production F-22 because it increased the risk of pilot spatial disorientation.

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## DrSomnath999

Dash said:


> That is a hexagonal nuzzle version and not a rectangular one. a hexa nuzzle like the one shown in this pic can support 3D thurst vectoring....


well i actually termed the nozzle by it's rectangular shape only ,may be hexagonal would 
be the appropiate word.

Hmm can it support 3D thrust vectoring like this as shown in pic below I am not sure ????








Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The current production F-22 nozzle was designed for multi-axis vectoring including thrust reversal. It was successfully tested but it never made it to the production F-22 because it increased the risk of pilot spatial disorientation.


but madam i think F22 has 2 axis tvc nozzles in it's production model .


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## Dash

DrSomnath999 said:


> well i actually termed the nozzle by it's rectangular shape only ,may be hexagonal would
> be the appropiate word.
> 
> Hmm can it support 3D thrust vectoring like this as shown in pic below I am not sure ????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but madam i think F22 has 2 axis tvc nozzles in it's production model .



Doc, there was no concept of hexagonal nozzle before, either nozzles were round or flat (rectangular for F-22). The shape of a hexa nozzle is like a hexagon and is somewhat close to being circular. This design is not proven yet as its still in conceptual stage and believed to support 3D thurst vectoring. 

We havnt seen such a design in real scenario and hence it is dificult to conclude anything now, but they might go for this design if they want to give both 3D and reduced signature as this is the only option...

Else they need to compromise one..


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## DrSomnath999

*A report from an engine technology exhibition some time late 2011 detailing FGUP TsIAM's work.* 

http://engine.aviaport.ru/issues/79/pics/pg04.pdf 

As regards PAK-FA, TsIAM is delegated work regarding:

&#1084;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1091;&#1087;&#1077;&#1085;&#1095;&#1072;&#1090;&#1099;&#1084; &#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1072;&#1075;&#1088;&#1091;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084; &#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1080;&#1083;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1091; &#1080; &#1050;&#1042;&#1044; &#1089; &#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1084;&#1072;&#1089;&#1089;&#1086;&#1081;;
A fewer staged, high loading fan and a low mass, HP compressor;

&#1086;&#1089;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1090;&#1077;&#1084;&#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1091;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1082;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077; &#1089;&#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;;
The main high-temperature combustion chamber;

&#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1090;&#1077;&#1084;&#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1091;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1091;&#1087;&#1077;&#1085;&#1095;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;&#1081; &#1058;&#1042;&#1044;;
High-temperature, single-staged HP turbine;

&#1083;&#1077;&#1075;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1092;&#1086;&#1088;&#1089;&#1072;&#1078;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1073;&#1077;&#1089;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1073;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080;&#1079;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1082;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077; &#1089;&#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;;
A lean-burn combustion chamber without a stabilizer

&#1094;&#1080;&#1092;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1057;&#1040;&#1059; &#1089; &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1086;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1090;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;&#1102; (FADEC).
FADEC

Also reported is work on a UAV (UCAV?) engine and conceptual design of the PAK-DA engine.

Interesting pics:




&#1041;&#1051;&#1048;&#1057;&#1050; &#1090;&#1091;&#1088;&#1073;&#1080;&#1085;&#1099; &#1080;&#1079; &#1073;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1087;&#1083;&#1072;&#1074;&#1072; (page 5, top left)
BLISK turbines made of a bi-metallic alloy






&#1050;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072; &#1089;&#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1058;&#1056;&#1044;&#1044; (page 5, middle-RIGHT)
Section of combustion chamber for a future engine






&#1051;&#1086;&#1087;&#1072;&#1090;&#1082;&#1072; &#1056;&#1050; &#1084;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077;&#1088;&#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1050;&#1053;&#1044; &#1080;&#1079; &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1080;&#1090;&#1072; (page 6, top left)
Fan blade 'RK' for upgraded LP compressor made of polymer composites.






&#1051;&#1086;&#1087;&#1072;&#1090;&#1082;&#1080; &#1056;&#1050; &#1080; &#1053;&#1040; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1050;&#1053;&#1044; (page 7, top left)
Fan blades 'RK' & 'NA' for a future LP compressor






&#1056;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1095;&#1080;&#1077; &#1083;&#1086;&#1087;&#1072;&#1090;&#1082;&#1080; &#1090;&#1091;&#1088;&#1073;&#1080;&#1085;&#1099; &#1080;&#1079; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1080;&#1094;&#1080;&#1086;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074; (page 7, bottom-left)
Working fan-blades of a turbine made of composite materials.

*COURTESY: JO ASAKURA
THANK U FOR THE INFO MATE*


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## arp2041

*Tikhomirov NIIP to Custom Build AESA Radar for IAF FGFA *

Tikhomirov NIIP will custom build a AESA Radar for IAF's FGFA fleet, which will be different from the AESA radar that Tikhomirov is developing for the PAK- FA / T-50 fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

Tikhomirov-NIIP Director General Yury Bely revealed the information in an interview with Take Off magazine for its June 2012.

Tikhomirov-NIIP developed the Bars PESA radar that is currently fitted on IAF Su-30MKI fighters. The radar is supplied to the IAF BY Tikhomirov NIIP partner Ryazan State Instrument-making Enterprise. Ryazan is also helping HAL with local manufacture of the BARS PESA.

Under a preliminary agreement with HAL, Tikhomirov NIIP would also be developing the AESA radar for IAF's upgraded Su-30MKI aircraft. A final contract has, however, not been signed.

Meanwhile, Tikhomirov NIIP developed AESA radar for the T-50 has commenced flight testing on the T-50-3 prototype at Zhukovsky near Moscow in June 2012.

Test and alignment of the fourth radar is nearing completion prior to its shipping to Komsomolsk-on-Amur where the radar will be mounted on the T-50-4. Flight trials of the fourth AESA are expected to commence before the end of 2012.

Manufacture of two more AESA radars for subsequent PAK FA prototypes, is under way.

Tikhomirov NIIP to Custom Build AESA Radar for IAF FGFA

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## Aamna Ali

This video shows the technologies being developed for the project..

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## DrSomnath999

*The company "Dry" in 2013 will produce the fifth prototype fifth-generation fighter*

Tests of promising Russian aviation complex tactical aviation (PAK FA) are in accordance with the schedule next year will begin service testing, said the president of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Mikhail Pogosyan. According to him, is now in trials involving three cars. By the end of the year to connect the fourth test aircraft and, in 2013 - the fifth.
In 2013, the schedule will begin work with the Ministry of Defense Test PAK FA. In the implementation of the program to create a fighter is the problem: some systems suppliers rip time, there are issues of quality, in terms of performance. However, Pogosyan said, it is - working times that are inevitable when you create a fundamentally new technology, the 30-40th serial aircraft manufacturing process stabilizes. He noted that the Russian aircraft industry is extremely important to increase the volume of production, above all, civil and military transport aircraft.

Today, the aircraft "Sukhoi Superjet 100" is about 170 orders. Among the foreign customers - airlines in Indonesia and Mexico.

According to the correspondents' military-industrial complex, "news agencies ARMS-TASS and Interfax-AVN
Google Translate


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## SBD-3




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## KRAIT

^Posted....


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## Water Car Engineer



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## rockstarIN

DrSomnath999 said:


> *The company "Dry" in 2013 will produce the fifth prototype fifth-generation fighter*
> 
> Tests of promising Russian aviation complex tactical aviation (PAK FA) are in accordance with the schedule next year will begin service testing, said the president of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Mikhail Pogosyan. According to him, is now in trials involving three cars. By the end of the year to connect the fourth test aircraft and, in 2013 - the fifth.
> In 2013, the schedule will begin work with the Ministry of Defense Test PAK FA. In the implementation of the program to create a fighter is the problem: some systems suppliers rip time, there are issues of quality, in terms of performance. However, Pogosyan said, it is - working times that are inevitable when you create a fundamentally new technology, the 30-40th serial aircraft manufacturing process stabilizes. He noted that the Russian aircraft industry is extremely important to increase the volume of production, above all, civil and military transport aircraft.
> 
> Today, the aircraft "Sukhoi Superjet 100" is about 170 orders. Among the foreign customers - airlines in Indonesia and Mexico.
> 
> According to the correspondents' military-industrial complex, "news agencies ARMS-TASS and Interfax-AVN
> Google Translate



We should wait MKI upgrade till we get this AESA radar and should install the same radar in MKI too.


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## Water Car Engineer

Sir LurkaLot said:


>



*More*

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## Devianz

Sir LurkaLot said:


>



Sexy...
Undoubtedly two of the sexiest fighter jets on the planet


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## SpArK

hi-res

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Sergi

nice pics ^^^


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## kkacer

very ugly plane


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## Esc8781

kkacer said:


> very ugly plane


 The jet is not in a beauty contest. If you want to see an ugly plane search up the x-32.


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## danger007

kkacer said:


> very ugly plane



only ladies looks beautiful just like our drag queen

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## bobbybabu007

India has china to fight while Russia wont be needing too many jets to combat any particular country Moreover, too much military hardware is among the reasons for the collapse of the USSR. remember that before the US built a nuclear submarine, Russia had around 200 diesel subs. Then, they went on to build another 200 nuclear submarines, which, *rusted in peace* in the russian dockyards after the collapse.

Moreover, America has only 187 Raptors. so 200 is enough.

India is aiming at keeping a new generation of jets matching the ever-growing number in the chinese arsenal. So, it is an inevitable decision to be made....


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## sancho

*PAK-FA / T-50 Russian Air Force 100th Anniversary Air Show 2012 Aug.12*

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## laltaputu



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## sudhir007



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## sudhir007

Google Translate






Fifth-generation fighter will soon suffer the maneuverability

Fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (T-50) will soon begin testing maneuverability, said on Thursday honored test pilot and Hero of Russia, Sergei Bogdan.

Currently involved in testing three prototypes fifth-generation fighter. This year, to connect the fourth plane.

"The plane of the fifth generation in the near future, the program proceeds to test for super maneuverability. And those figures who now plays Su-35, T-50 aircraft in the near future will also be ready to perform," - said in an interview Bogdan "Russia 24" .

He noted that unlike the Su-35 (which is a plane 4 + + generation), the fifth generation fighter aircraft greater wing area, larger volume of fuel, the engine with higher thrust.

According to Bogdan, agility T-50 is just more, despite the great demands of his "signature." "There are all conditions that the aircraft will be significantly better than the Su-35", - said Bohdan.

Comparing the T-50 aircraft with an American fifth-generation fighter F-22 "Raptor", he said that our T-50 came later, so all the shortcomings that were identified from the Americans, were taken into account when creating a Russian aircraft.

"Our Su-30MKI in 1997 on the handling characteristics showed no worse than the" Raptor ". Have passed since 15 years. By the fact that" Raptor "shows now, we can judge that by handling it does not beat that plane , "- said Bohdan.

He stressed that the tactical maneuvers with the aircraft Malaysia and India show that Russian planes prevail in a "skirmish."

"I think our strike aircraft developed in the right direction", - said Bohdan.

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## ptldM3



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## SMStealth

Sukhoi T-50 Stealth Fighter Completes Tanker Plug Trial | Defense | RIA Novosti



Russian fighter maker Sukhoi's T-50 fifth-generation stealth fighter has completed initial approach trials to a flight refuelling aircraft, the company said on Tuesday.
The aircraft, T-50-2, made approaches to an Il-78 tanker in company with a Su-25UB trainer/strike aircraft.
The second prototype, T-50-2 is currently conducting a range of flight trials to test the new plane's flight envelope in subsonic and supersonic regimes and in different configurations.
The first prototype, T-50-1, is undertaking preparation for a flight test program involving flight at super-critical angles of attack and super-maneuverability.
In August, T-50-3 will start full tests of the aircraft's new active phased-array radar system and avionics, which the company says has already shown impressive results in air-to-air and air-to-ground tests.
The NII Tikhomirova radar will allow T-50 to attack targets at long-range in simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface modes, detect and classify group and single targets and simultaneously attack several targets at once with precision-guided weapons and also perform electronic warfare functions.
A fourth T-50 will join the test program later this year.
The T-50 is due to enter Russian Air Force service after 2015. A derivative of the aircraft is also due to enter service with the Indian Air Force at a slightly later date.


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## DrSomnath999

I GOT SOME INTERESTING ANALYSIS DONE BY A MEMBER ON KEY PUB ,I THOUGHT I SHOULD ALSO POST IT HERE

*Changes on the GTDE turbine starters doors on the T-50 first two prototypes*
































COURTESY: 
martinez
THANK U FOR THE PICS MATE


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## DrSomnath999

*Russian fighter jet T-50 will protect from the "freezing"*


Ministry of Industry industrial technology needed to create electronic filling for fifth-generation fighter PAK-FA (T-50). For the development of integrated modular avionics (IMA) combat systems department is ready to pay almost 68 million. Requires the development of data-processing modules that are responsible for the implementation of most processes, aircraft navigation, on-screen display, navigation, and many others - with the exception of the primitive sort of conditioning and landing gear. 

In fact, the PAK FA is ready, the first batch of aircraft should, according to the plans of the Ministry of Defense, to get off the assembly line in 2015. Three prototype cars are undergoing flight test program. Therefore the Ministry of Industry is required industrial technology of thin avionics. 

Most of the information about the characteristics of the T-50 is kept secret, it is known only that the aircraft meets the fighter of the fifth generation: developing a supersonic speed without afterburner turn, has a low radar visibility, maneuvers with significant loads. 

According to the tender documents, the main objective of the project - to move from classical multimachine computer system to an integrated under the concept of IMA. 

- A rejection of the system in which each individual task solves a single machine. Embedded systems, where many tasks can be executed on a single processor, - explained the "News" Konstantin Egorov, modular avionics specialist, head of the laboratory at the Research Institute of Aviation Systems. 

Yegorov said that the technology is being promoted in the civil aviation, and, obviously, should be present in a military aircraft. IMA is less expensive than the conventional system, and thus may provide better performance. Each process gets a priority level, the most critical run first, so the system is protected from "freezing." 

If the transition to the IMA does not happen in the T-50, it will affect the entire industry, because the creation of the fighter - one of the main incentives for the development of military-industrial complex of Russia, stated in the tender documentation. Global aviation industry has been transferred to a new integrated avionics system for more than ten years ago. 

- Preservation of the classical scheme will increase the gap from the world of practice and finally make the domestic aviation industry uncompetitive - the authors predict that the terms of reference. 

- This is a critical step forward for the Russian avionics - agrees expert in defense research, a senior fellow Ilya Klabukov MIPT. - From the point of view of improving military equipment and improve the country's defense program claimed no objection. 

The specialists are advised to pay attention to the technical requirements for systems to be developed for the fighter. According to them, the equipment with the stated performance is unlikely to provide the technological superiority of Russia. 

- The approach to its design is similar to both the designer and the Lego obsession to catch up with Lockheed Martin (a company specializing in the field of aviation. - "News"), and not on the technology of military superiority, - complains Klabukov. - As the basis for a system of standards is taken and the American Association of ARINC VITA, as if not designed avionics for the PAK FA, and for export Sukhoi Superjet. 

Klabukov assumes onboard digital computer will 
collected from refined CPUs development of JSC "MCST". In his view, the domestic circuit quite well for military equipment needed for the fighter class products military and space, where reliability is important. Even if you want to use chips from overseas that idea did not work out would be for this, Russia would have to either join, or seize equipment fraudulently. It is unlikely that any of the leading manufacturers of this equipment will sell Russia chip construction fighter. 

Google Translate[/QUOTE]


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## bobbybabu007

Because India has the most need of such a huge number...... It is the best jet in design now(considering the costs) that can be inducted into the IAF. so, buying in plentiful is a good decision........


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## sancho



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## DARKY

Flat Nozzle for 3D TVC... a good art.

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## Gessler

DARKY said:


> Flat Nozzle for 3D TVC... a good art.



For a moment I though it was real

However this is not a "flat" nozzle,,,but it can be said to be Stealthy IR signature-reducing nozzle.


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## Grevion

i guess its engine will have an stealth type coating on them cause the way they look now is same as the engine are in flanker's and falcrum's or may be i am wrong


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## kurup

DARKY said:


> Flat Nozzle for 3D TVC... a good art.



Very nice CGI .............looks great ...........


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## Agent_47




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## David James

*FGFA  Quantum leap for Indian aerospace*


The signing of the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft contract propels India to joint developer of the worlds most advanced stealth aircraft.
FGFA  Quantum leap for Indian aerospace
Russian fifth-generation fighter jet - Sukhoi T-50. Source: ITAR-TASS

Two significant developments have stirred up the world of military aviation this year. In March, the U.S. Air Force revealed it had started work to field a new Long Range Strike Bomber by the 2020s. This will be first new American strategic bomber to be built after the Cold War.

How much the global balance of power has shifted since the Cold War days was clear when it was revealed that the aircraft the American bomber might encounter in the skies will have a large Indian signature  in more ways than one. In August, the Indian Air Force announced that India and Russia are getting set to ink the final R&D contract for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) by the end of the year or early-2013. The contract is worth more than US$ 11 billion, and according to the terms of the agreement both countries will share 50 percent of the costs.

That the FGFA would fly was never in doubt. (To meet its air defence requirements, Russia was committed to the T-50 but as the American F-35 programme has demonstrated, having partners translates into assured orders.) *The only uncertain component of the programme was the extent of Indian participation. In the past couple of years there was a lot of speculation  and derisive comments  about Indias involvement. Sceptics felt it was limited to merely offering suggestions as to what the IAF wanted  such as two seats or one  while the more charitable ones believed Indias contributions would be in avionics and software.*

The IAF chiefs visit to Moscow last month finally lifted the veil of secrecy about Indias participation in the worlds most eagerly awaited fighter aircraft. It is now clear that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltds Ozar facility at Nashik in western India will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019, and they will be flown by Indian test pilots.

*India moves into the big league*

*What defence observers have missed is that the FGFA is a quantum leap for Indias armaments industry, especially HAL. After decades of dabbling in joint production  a euphemism for screwdriver technology  Indias aerospace sector will finally step up to joint development.

This will catapult India to a new level where it will finally be able to develop advanced stealth aircraft on its own. Not even Americas leading partners in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter programme, such as Turkey or the UK, have access to such red hot technology. Instead of being a sidekick, India will be a joint partner in a leading military project.*

Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to HAL. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. India will soon have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019.

An IAF official told Janes that the jointly developed aircraft draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA technology demonstrator with modifications to meet the IAF specifications, which are much more stringent.

The IAF is hopeful production fighters will roll out of the factory gates by 2022. Up to 250 of these aircraft will be inducted at an estimated cost of $35 billion. Russia will buy a similar number. While it is never easy to place a price tag on such a constantly evolving platform, the IAF estimates the cost per plane at $100 million. The total cost, including options and the value of production aircraft, will make this the biggest defence programme ever in Indias history.

*Potent threat
*
Although the T-50s specifications remain classified, reports indicate it features advanced stealth capability and supersonic cruising speed. Here is what Air Power Australia says: The stealthy T-50, albeit in an early phase of development, is showing naked air combat power in the form of extreme plus agility and persistence that, with the addition of advanced sensors, countermeasures and weapons, will likely soundly defeat the F-22 Raptor but will certainly annihilate the F-35 and the Super Hornet.

This is an explosive statement but coming from ace aircraft experts, the FGFA portends a scary decade ahead for Western air defences and pilots.

*Tuning the T-50
*

Clearly, the designers arent sitting idle. A series of developments suggests the FGFA has achieved irresistible propulsion. According to the website of Russias United Aircraft Group, which owns the Sukhoi bureau, the company has tested three T-50 prototypes in various modes, totalling around 180 sorties, including aerial refuelling hook-ups with a Russian Air Force Il-78 tanker, AESA radar scans, and large angle of attack and super manoeuvrability test flights.

Carlo Kopp of Air Power Australia and legendary aircraft analyst Bill Sweetman wonder whether the current T-50 represents the definitive configuration. Today's round nozzles and the curvature of the aft nacelles are not at first glance stealth-optimised, and the engine is not fully masked head-on by the inlet duct, they write in an article in Aviation Week.

*To be sure, those are exactly the areas India and Russia will be working on in the months and years ahead. The IAF, for instance, has specified more than 40 improvements to the design following its observation of flying trials.
*
* 
For instance, in the early stages of the programme, the IAF was keen on a two-seater fighter bomber, and in fact indicated a requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat aircraft.

But since then it has jettisoned that demand will go in for only single-seat jets now. The reason is that a second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15 percent, apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity.*

*Exploring exports*

Unlike the dollar-guzzling F-35 which perhaps wouldnt fly without exports, the T-50 remains viable because of lower development costs and large pre-orders from Russia and India. Still exports cant hurt. *According to the IAF, the broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design and development of the aircraft, its production and joint marketing to other countries.*

The Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), a Moscow-based independent defence and foreign policy think-tank, says that *while India will be the first FGFA export customer, Vietnam will be probably its second buyer.* CAST Director Ruslan Pukhov believes every third user of the Su-27/30 family of aircraft could be a customer for the FGFA.

*Russias legacy*

For both Russia and India the FGFA programme will be a bold new gambit, as it will overshadow even the highly successful BrahMos missile project. For, while BrahMos is also a 50:50 India-Russia venture, it is basically Indias baby; Russia has turned down an offer to buy the missile as it has the equally capable Club.

However, the FGFA programme could be a template for further defence cooperation between India and Russia. As its economy grows, India is increasingly seeking quality armaments for its armed forces and is keen to wean itself away from imports. Russia on the other hand has the knowhow and experience to produce highly capable weapons platforms. *Together, they can ensure that legacy remains intact.*


FGFA

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## Black Widow

please merge it with exiusting thread...

Indian defense -- > FGFA-PAKFa sticky thread...


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## Abingdonboy

^^ that is one flattering article!!



But the idea of 500+ PAK-FA/FGFA flying around that is on par with the F-22 and far superior to the F-35 must make the West's trousers get warmer.


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## Gessler

@kkacer

What kind of a stealth fighter carries weapons externally? Not sure about it's RCS being around 3-4m2 eh?


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## Abingdonboy

gessler said:


> @kkacer
> 
> What kind of a stealth fighter carries weapons externally? Not sure about it's RCS being around 3-4m2 eh?



The F-35 has been designed to be able to carry "drop-tanks" bcause its range on internal fuel is pretty dismal.


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## Gessler

Abingdonboy said:


> The F-35 has been designed to be able to carry "drop-tanks" bcause its range on internal fuel is pretty dismal.



Yes, but doesn't that compromise stealth? The F-35 isn't the F-22, it's the Raptor that's the
trend-setter. Carrying so many weapons on outer wing pylons destroys the effort put into manufacturing
weapon bays, and stealth tech, RAM and other materials.


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## Abingdonboy

gessler said:


> Yes, but doesn't that compromise stealth? The F-35 isn't the F-22, it's the Raptor that's the
> trend-setter. Carrying so many weapons on outer wing pylons destroys the effort put into manufacturing
> weapon bays, and stealth tech, RAM and other materials.



Of course it comprimises stealth! No "true" stealth platform will carry external weapons, it comprimises everything the plane was built for.

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## kurup

gessler said:


> @kkacer
> 
> What kind of a stealth fighter carries weapons externally? Not sure about it's RCS being around 3-4m2 eh?



Thats not a problem for the chinese ......

They develop everything based on chinese physics ........

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## Gessler

*Sukhoi T-50 caught vectoring it's nozzles*

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## Yeti

An Indian negotiating team is heading for Russia to finalize details of the country&#8217;s participation in development of the Sukhoi T-50, also known by the Russian acronym PAK FA and by India as the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). India is providing half of the expected $11 billion cost to develop the aircraft, and earlier signed a preliminary design contract worth $295 million. The Indian development contract is expected to take six months to conclude, AIN has learned.

In an exclusive interview, Indian air force chief of staff Norman Anil Kumar Browne told AIN, &#8220;The contract incorporates our specifications, which are very demanding.&#8221; Browne drew a distinction between the FGFA version and the original PAK FA, three prototypes of which are already flying. *&#8220;We still do not know what [our] final version will be like until we finish. What I can say is that it will be very different from the Russian version, including weapons, avionics and sensors.&#8221;
*

The PAK FA development program needs to complete 5,000 sorties, Browne said. &#8220;So we have work to do. The fourth prototype will fly soon,&#8221; he predicted. Government defense contractor Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will be participating in design and development. Following signature of the contract, *HAL officials and Indian Air Force (IAF) test pilots will be based in Russia for seven years during the R&D phase.*

&#8220;[The IAF] will get three prototypes for testing&#8211;the first in 2014/15, the second in 2017 and in 2019 the final one, which will be the version we order,&#8221; said Browne. Russian air force commander Gen. Victor Bondarev said recently that his service would receive production aircraft in 2015.

The IAF had &#8220;preliminary thoughts&#8221; about acquiring the Lockheed Martin F-35 in 2004/2005, but signed the MoU with Russia for the FGFA in 2007. &#8220;I am confident the F-35 will be a good machine. But now we have a concrete plan. We have crossed the time [line] and cannot commit to more than one project,&#8221; said Browne when asked whether India could still consider the F-35.

India initially planned to have 166 single-seat and 48 two-seat FGFAs, but recently it decided to take all 214 as single-seaters. AIN understands that the decision was driven by the fidelity of modern simulation, as well as the additional cost of building two-seaters.


Indian Air Force Chief Outlines Fighter Jet Plans | Aviation International News

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## rockstarIN

Are we getting first T-50 prototype by 2014.???


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Are we getting first T-50 prototype by 2014.???



It should be FGFA prototypes, since that the version we aim for and because we want different materials, avionics and maybe even different engines than Russia wants at the beginning. Taking T50 for tests to India the won't give any useful data.


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## gambit

> gessler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but doesn't that compromise stealth? The F-35 isn't the F-22, it's the Raptor that's the
> trend-setter. Carrying so many weapons on outer wing pylons destroys the effort put into manufacturing
> weapon bays, and stealth tech, RAM and other materials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abingdonboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it comprimises stealth! No "true" stealth platform will carry external weapons, it comprimises everything the plane was built for.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Even the F-22 can carry external stores including weapons, not just fuel. The decision/reason for when external weapons will be used will be based upon threat analyses, as in if theater airborne threats are of sufficient low quality and quantity to justify the removal of low radar observability for increased weapons delivery.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> It should be FGFA prototypes, since that the version we aim for and because we want different materials, avionics and maybe even different engines than Russia wants at the beginning. Taking T50 for tests to India the won't give any useful data.



But whenever we get it, its basically T-50 only as a prototype. right?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> But whenever we get it, its basically T-50 only as a prototype. right?



No, otherwhise we would already test one of the T50 prototypes in India now, what we want are dedicated FGFA prototypes.

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## arp2041

sancho said:


> No, otherwhise we would already test one of the T50 prototypes in India now, what we want are dedicated FGFA prototypes.



Sancho but i think that IAF will go for atleast 20-30 of PAK-FAs (i.e. the Russian version) before finally inducting the FGFA in it's fleet, this will be the same case as we did with su-30s before inducting the MKIs version, reason being the importance given by IAF to the nos. as PLAAF will also induct it's fifth gen aircraft by 2020 or so before the production of FGFA starts, worrying the balance of power.


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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> Sancho but i think that IAF will go for atleast 20-30 of PAK-FAs (i.e. the Russian version) before finally inducting the FGFA in it's fleet, this will be the same case as we did with su-30s before inducting the MKIs version, reason being the importance given by IAF to the nos. as PLAAF will also induct it's fifth gen aircraft by 2020 or so before the production of FGFA starts, worrying the balance of power.



No it's not the same case, we inducted twin seat Su 30Ks which stuited our requirements and purposly rejected the early single seat Su 35s. Another point is, that Russia might go for a fast induction, but with less 5th gen features, something that IAF don't wants.
However, the prototypes will be FGFA versions, otherwise there is no sense in waiting for 2 more years.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> No it's not the same case, we inducted twin seat Su 30Ks which stuited our requirements and purposly rejected the early single seat Su 35s. Another point is, that Russia might go for a fast induction, but with less 5th gen features, something that IAF don't wants.
> However, the prototypes will be FGFA versions, otherwise there is no sense in waiting for 2 more years.


If I am not wrong the prototype schedule ( 2014, 2017,2019) was of the time IAF want twin seaters. Now IAF is going only for Single seaters so most probably schedule will change. I personally think that Reporting on THIS topic is messy and things will be more clear when we actually sign the JV papers in next few months


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## arp2041

Sergi said:


> If I am not wrong the prototype schedule ( 2014, 2017,2019) was of the time IAF want twin seaters. Now IAF is going only for Single seaters so most probably schedule will change. I personally think that Reporting on THIS topic is messy and things will be more clear when we actually sign the JV papers in next few months



I think the timeline is correct, we just have to pray that it doesn't get delayed as the first FGFA production has already slipped to 2022. IAF made the right move by not going for twin seaters since that would have reduced stealth features & resulted in unnecessary cost escalations besides we were left alone as Russia wanted only single seaters. Though what sancho said could be correct but i still have the feeling that we "might" buy 2 squadrons of PAK-FAs off the shelf (From Russia With Love ).


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> If I am not wrong the prototype schedule ( 2014, 2017,2019) was of the time IAF want twin seaters. Now IAF is going only for Single seaters[so most probably schedule will change.



No, the initial schedule was aimed on getting FGFA for IAF around 2017, so prototypes would have been ready now, but decisions got delayed and now we have a new schedule.
I still say the single seat report was just a media speculation, it wasn't quoted by the air marshal and never officially confirmed and again, if we now want single seaters, we could test the T50 today in India.



arp2041 said:


> Though what sancho said could be correct but i still have the feeling that we "might" buy 2 squadrons of PAK-FAs off the shelf (From Russia With Love ).



Russia surly wants to sell us some of them and they have stated that officially too, but IAF rejected the idea so far, because they want the FGFA changes.


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## arp2041




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## sudhir007

Google Translate

By the end of 2012 Research and Production Association (NPO) "Saturn" finalize the preliminary design of the second stage engine (product "117") for future aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA). The information was the managing director of "Saturn," Ilya Fedorov.

"The engine of the first stage (product" 117C ") has been created for the Su-35. On the technical level it refers to the fighter class" 4 + + ". As for the engine of the second stage, the main difference between it and" 117S ", is that it will have a long service life, lower specific gravity and modularity of the elements of design "- said Fedorov.

It is believed that the materials, technology, and other technical innovations derived engine in the civilian sector, will flow to the military segment. And vice versa.

"All combined dvigatelnostroitelnaya Corporation is currently working on the creation of the second stage engine for the PAK FA", - quotes the head of the "Saturn", ITAR-TASS reported.


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## Agent_47

When Vladimir Putin is walking away from something, it looks like it ought to be exploding.

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## mfreak

> When Vladimir Putin is walking away from something, it looks like it ought to be exploding.



Russian Rajnikant

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## Sergi

Agent_47 said:


> When Vladimir Putin is walking away from something, it looks like it ought to be exploding.



hahahaha you see too much movies I guess 

Actually as a matter of fact I always try to figure out why the so called hero walking in style away from explosion is NOT being thrown on his @ss by the shock wave generated by the explosion. 

Yes I know it's off topic and in wrong thread


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> No, the initial schedule was aimed on getting FGFA for IAF around 2017, so prototypes would have been ready now, but decisions got delayed and now we have a new schedule.
> I still say the single seat report was just a media speculation, it wasn't quoted by the air marshal and never officially confirmed and again, if we now want single seaters, we could test the T50 today in India.
> 
> 
> 
> Russia surly wants to sell us some of them and they have stated that officially too, but IAF rejected the idea so far, because they want the FGFA changes.


Actually the bit about the 166 single seat Pak Fa was quoted by the air chief marshal in an interview - I'll try to find it for you.
Got it.
Not an interview - but it's still a direct quote from the ACM
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/iaf-to-induct-214-fifth-generation-fighter-jets/189940-3.html


> The Indian Air Force (IAF) will induct a total of 214 single and twin-seater variants of the advanced Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed jointly by India and Russia. The fighters are likely to be inducted by 2017.
> *"We are looking for 166 single seater and 48 twin-seater versions of the aircraft," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said in New Delhi.*
> He was asked to comment on the project which will be reviewed by India and Russia during Defence Minister AK Antony's meeting with his Russian counterpart AE Sardyukov in Moscow.
> He said the contract was in the preliminary contract stage and was expected involve more efforts by two sides when it enters design phase next year.
> "By 2012, negotiations will start for the design phase of the aircraft," he said.
> The IAF Chief said India would also discuss basing air force, Hindustan Aeronautics limited (HAL) and DRDO teams in Russia to monitor the progress of the joint venture project.
> He said by 2017 the first lot of the aircraft were expected to join the IAF and that will depend on the progress of tests and trials of the aircraft.
> Commenting on the international commitments of the IAF, Browne said it will hold aerial wargames with the Royal Air Force of Oman (RAFO) from October 14 at the Jamnagar air base where the two sides will field their Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft.
> Asked about its plans to take part in Red Flag exercise held in the US, Browne said participating in such wargames involves a lot of effort as it was a trans-Atlantic affair.
> He said the IAF will now go there in 2013 only. Red Flag is a US-led NATO exercise and India had taken part in it in 2008.
> Need for tri-service aerospace command
> The IAF also said there was a need for having a tri-service aerospace command to look after the military issues related to space.
> "Time has come that we look into the realm of an aerospace command. It would be a joint command where all the three services have to put their hands together," IAF Chief said while addressing the annual Air Force Day press conference in Nedw Delhi.
> All the three services have been talking about creating a joint command for management and creation of a space command to tackle military threats and utilising space-based capabilities.
> Asked about the status of the dedicated satellite programmes for the IAF, Browne said, "Both the GSAT-7 and GSAT-7A satellites are delayed by a year. That is a delay from the ISRO part."
> He said the payload and other systems to be launched with the satellite have been finalised.
> On the functioning of the IAF space cell, Browne said the Integrated Defence Staff has come up with a Defence Space Vision and was the point of contact for all the three services.


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> Not an interview



Exactly and that's the point, it was neither an interview with him, nor an official press conference, the report back then just said that the air marshal has said that, but again, since then not a single official confirmation from him, IAF or MoD came out, that there will be a change of the initial twin seat config. The media is just refering to the same article, on an on, but without any real proof.


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## Agent_47

Sergi said:


> hahahaha you see too much movies I guess
> 
> Actually as a matter of fact I always try to figure out why the so called hero walking in style away from explosion is NOT being thrown on his @ss by the shock wave generated by the explosion.
> 
> Yes I know it's off topic and in wrong thread





mfreak said:


> Russian Rajnikant



Hw about this?!

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## Sergi

Agent_47 said:


> Hw about this?!



hahahah you got to be kidding me  
But let's keep to topic. We are going off track 
Nice Photoshop skills though


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## Gessler



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## Nishan_101

gessler said:


>



Its the best time for Algeria, Libya and Egypt to join in this program or with MiG or even go with Chinese on their next generation program.


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## Gessler

Nishan_101 said:


> Its the best time for Algeria, Libya and Egypt to join in this program or with MiG or even go with Chinese on their next generation program.



Those nations dont have enough money to buy these jets. Atleast not until 2025.


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> Its the best time for Algeria, Libya and Egypt to join in this program or with MiG or even go with Chinese on their next generation program.



I don't think any of these countries are in financial position to either invest or buy such a/c right now. And I doubt India (who has to okay any deal) will allow the sale to any nation- maybe Algeria. 5th gen fighters are going to be the preserve of only the very richest of nations until at least 2032 if not later. Nations like the ones you have mentioned have at least another 2 decades to wait before hey get 5th gen fighters.


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## Black Widow

Nishan_101 said:


> Its the best time for Algeria, Libya and Egypt to join in this program or with MiG or even go with Chinese on their next generation program.





Lybia, algeria and egypt fifth gen fighter????? They don't have the Aukat.... Post it in stupid and funny thread... I am sure its not funny though.. 

for next 3 decades the fifth gen technology will be with India-Russia-US-Europe and china... Even pakistan wont get it sooner.. Pakistan has to wait for 2 decades more.


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## DrSomnath999

*SOME INTERESTING INFO *






*COURTESY:EAGLE1*


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## Gessler

DrSomnath999 said:


> *SOME INTERESTING INFO *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *COURTESY:EAGLE1*



All these are false rumors created by dumb journos. IAF Chief never said anything
like that. The requirement still stands at 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat FGFAs,
totalling 214 units.


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## rockstarIN

DrSomnath999 said:


> *SOME INTERESTING INFO *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *COURTESY:EAGLE1*



it will be a surprising news indeed if true. Means more confidence in AMCA project...!!


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## rockstarIN

@sancho, you have any info about the above?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> @sancho, you have any info about the above?



No and to be honest, I stick to wait and see mode now. There is simply too much speculation by the media, while we don't have any clear reports from the official Indian or Russian sides about FGFA. The numbers are changing, the design is still unclear, even the timelines are different now, so we might have to wait till 2014 (arrival of first prototype in India), to see what is real and what is not.

However, there is defenitely not more hope in AMCA, since we are not even in a premature design stage there (I think we didn't even have set any final requirements so far) and that will be a longer term project anyway.

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## Abingdonboy

Have we not seen this a situation before where one media house makes a mistake and it is picked up and repeated over and over again again by other media outlets but later news comes out that shows the initial news was absolute BS!


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## trident2010

*Sukhoi T-50 Stealth Fighter Completes Tanker Plug Trial*






Russian fighter maker Sukhoi's T-50 fifth-generation stealth fighter has completed initial approach trials to a flight refuelling aircraft, the company said on Tuesday.
The aircraft, T-50-2, made approaches to an Il-78 tanker in company with a Su-25UB trainer/strike aircraft.
The second prototype, T-50-2 is currently conducting a range of flight trials to test the new plane's flight envelope in subsonic and supersonic regimes and in different configurations.
The first prototype, T-50-1, is undertaking preparation for a flight test program involving flight at super-critical angles of attack and super-maneuverability.
In August, T-50-3 will start full tests of the aircraft's new active phased-array radar system and avionics, which the company says has already shown impressive results in air-to-air and air-to-ground tests.
The NII Tikhomirova radar will allow T-50 to attack targets at long-range in simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface modes, detect and classify group and single targets and simultaneously attack several targets at once with precision-guided weapons and also perform electronic warfare functions.
A fourth T-50 will join the test program later this year.
The T-50 is due to enter Russian Air Force service after 2015. A derivative of the aircraft is also due to enter service with the Indian Air Force at a slightly later date.


Sukhoi T-50 Stealth Fighter Completes Tanker Plug Trial | Defense | RIA Novosti


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## 帅的一匹

When will India AMCA will be inducted?



Abingdonboy said:


> Have we not seen this a situation before where one media house makes a mistake and it is picked up and repeated over and over again again by other media outlets but later news comes out that shows the initial news was absolute BS!


Ig is always going like this in India, Your media prefer BS than truth.


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## 帅的一匹

Why India not considering F35? FGFA seems long way to go, at least until 2022. Russia is always delay in everything, India could not put all eggs in one basket, that is too dangerous for national security.


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## arp2041

wanglaokan said:


> Why India not considering F35? FGFA seems long way to go, at least until 2022. Russia is always delay in everything, India could not put all eggs in one basket, that is too dangerous for national security.



India cannot think about F-35, delay or no delay, FGFA is the best bet for IAF as of now, American weaponry is given with so many strings attached, India cannot threaten it's national security by going for a sophisticated fighter jets like F-35s which can make India hopelessly dependent on US at the time of war, & US can sanction India anytime it desires (one of the topmost reasons for IAF not going for American jets in MMRCA), besides F-35 program itself is becoming a white elephant, costs have nearly doubled, & time of induction has changed, also there are many nations waiting in the queue to get there F-35 before US can even think of giving them to India.

India is getting complete TOT in the FGFA deal which will be of great help in it's own fifth gen. fighter project - AMCA, i see no further delay in inducting FGFA beyond 2022 as the prototypes are already flying & the IAF has reduced it's demands (no twin seater, etc.), also there is no threat of fifth gen. fighters flying in our neighborhood atleast till 2020.


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## 帅的一匹

J-20 will be deployed at 2018, how India is gonna deal with 4 years empty window?


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## arp2041

wanglaokan said:


> J-20 will be deployed at 2018, how India is gonna deal with 4 years empty window?



I m not at all sure about that date, more practical seems 2020, also the first planes will not be based on the western border (i.e. border with India) but in the eastern bases of China as US is much bigger threat for China considering the new US pivot of Pacific region.


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## bhedgehog

arp2041 said:


> I m not at all sure about that date, more practical seems 2020, also the first planes will not be based on the western border (i.e. border with India) but in the eastern bases of China as US is much bigger threat for China considering the new US pivot of Pacific region.


Do not underestimate the speed of China. Plus, you should also take into consideration that: Russians always miss the deadline....


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## DrSomnath999




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## kkacer

DrSomnath999 said:


>



very ugly plane


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## kurup

kkacer said:


> very ugly plane



very jealousy man


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## danger007

wanglaokan said:


> J-20 will be deployed at 2018, how India is gonna deal with 4 years empty window?



let the j-20 come into production...


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## arp2041

kkacer said:


> very ugly plane



Don't worry, in an ac, looks are the last thing that matters


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## Yogi

kkacer said:


> very ugly plane



I didn't knew we were running a beauty contest with Russia...

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## Kompromat

Yogi said:


> I didn't knew we were running a beauty contest with Russia...



No, i guess Flankers are some of the most beautiful flying machines ever made. One would have hoped Russians to carry it on.

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## 帅的一匹

Its a prototype, not a real 5 gen stealthy plane. It still take years to see FGFA of India. Anyway, nice paint job.


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## trident2010

wanglaokan said:


> Its a prototype, not a real 5 gen stealthy plane. It still take years to see FGFA of India. Anyway, nice paint job.



Apart from F-22 and F-35 rest all like PAK-FA, J-20 are prototypes. So we won't be seeing any new 5th gen plane inducted in any other air-forces soon.


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## Gessler

wanglaokan said:


> Its a prototype, not a real 5 gen stealthy plane. It still take years to see FGFA of India. Anyway, nice paint job.



FGFA will be unvieled in 2014. Until then people will have to keep up with this color pattern of RusAF.

You see Russian air force Su-30s really don't look as good as IAF Su-30MKIs, I think its in the IAF Grey color.


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## jiki

the next prototype of t50 PAK-FA wil be on dec as per the "Take-off" Magazine and the 5th one in early 2013 .
here is 1 Qs from me that why india is going for only 3 protyp of fgfa where as russian are testing the pak-fa vigorously with 6-8 prototyps ?


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## Gessler

jiki said:


> the next prototype of t50 PAK-FA wil be on dec as per the "Take-off" Magazine and the 5th one in early 2013 .
> here is 1 Qs from me that why india is going for only 3 protyp of fgfa where as russian are testing the pak-fa vigorously with 6-8 prototyps ?



Many of FGFA's technology would already be tested on PAKFA. Thats why 3 prototypes are enough.


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## Gessler

*Testing of new engine for PAK-FA by 2014*





Scientific production association &#8220;Saturn&#8221; has began development of a new engine for bench testing in PAk-Fa aircraft . has informed by Yevgeny Marchuk, General Designer, Director of the Scientific and Technical Center , part of the &#8220;Saturn&#8221;. Engine will begin test in 2014.

&#8220;Engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing. This &#8211; essentially a new engine, so it took a long time&#8221; &#8211; said Marchuk. According to him, the weight of the new power plant will be 30 percent less than that of the AL-41F1 (&#8220;Item 117&#8243;, the modified version of the engine AL-41F1S for the Su-35), known as the engine of the first stage.

As expected, the life-cycle costs will also be almost a third less than that of the AL-41F1S and according Marchukova, &#8220;it also will be cheaper.&#8221; New engine for the PAK FA engine known as the second phase or &#8220;Type 30&#8243; will be significantly different from the currently used &#8220;Products 117&#8243;. The latter will be installed in the first production aircraft, until the end of the development of &#8220;Type 30&#8243;.

A new propulsion system for the T-50 is still unknown for many. According to preliminary data from the AL-41F1 engine will differ , will have increased thrust and improved fuel efficiency. According to unconfirmed reports, the power plant will be *able to develop a thrust of 107 kN in cruise flight and 176 kN afterburning mode.*

In April 2011, the general director of &#8220;Saturn,&#8221; Ilya Fedorov said that the establishment of the second stage engine is ahead of schedule, and the supply of new power plants is scheduled for 2015 informed the Russian Defense Ministry . In the same year, the Russian air force to will get the first production T-50.

---

Testing of the new engine for the PAK FA in 2014 | idrw.org

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## kurup

^^^ That is pretty huge .

The Pratt & Whitney F119 which powers F22 produces only 156 KN with afterburner

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## 帅的一匹

What's the difference between PAKFA and FGFA?


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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> What's the difference between PAKFA and FGFA?


FGFA will be Indianized version of PAKFA. It will have HAL as its partner which will make changes according to our requirements. Israeli and French avionics that were used in Su-30 to convert into Su- 30 MKI, you can say it is analogous to it. India will be installing its own technologies and technologies from other countries that it has acquired in ToT and bought from them.

I think Sancho can explain more about it.


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## jhungary

wanglaokan said:


> What's the difference between PAKFA and FGFA?



FGFA is the export version of PAK-FA same as F60 will be the xeport version of J-31

Basically built on PAK-FA but allow space for use ot Indegious INdian System on the FGFA, some sort of technology transfer


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## GORKHALI

KRAIT said:


> FGFA will be Indianized version of PAKFA. It will have HAL as its partner which will make changes according to our requirements. Israeli and French avionics that were used in Su-30 to convert into Su- 30 MKI, you can say it is analogous to it. India will be installing its own technologies and technologies from other countries that it has acquired in ToT and bought from them.
> 
> I think Sancho can explain more about it.



Arey Bhai Kuye Taklif dete hot Sancho Ko 

*@ wanglaokan
* FGFA is an Indian Version of PAK FA with much of changes in avionics such as display, navigation, targeting and electronic warfare systems keeping IAF requirement in view and these could be from Israel and French. In Simple Words *What is best available in market* will be there in FGFA.......


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## Yogi

jhungary said:


> FGFA is the export version of PAK-FA same as F60 will be the xeport version of J-31
> 
> Basically built on PAK-FA but allow space for use ot Indegious INdian System on the FGFA, some sort of technology transfer



FGFA isn't some export version its the Indianised version of PAK-FA n most possibly more superior due to induction of various Indian Foreign tech(SU 30 vs MKI) as India is a partner in the Project n not just a buyer although India is gonna operate both PAKFA n FGFA...

The export version will be a water down version of PAK-FA or FGFA as per customers requirement...


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## Sergi

Yogi said:


> FGFA isn't some export version its the Indianised version of PAK-FA n most possibly more superior due to induction of various Indian Foreign tech(SU 30 vs MKI) as India is a partner in the Project n not just a buyer *although India is gonna operate both PAKFA n FGFA...*
> 
> The export version will be a water down version of PAK-FA or FGFA as per customers requirement...


Can you link something to Bolded part ???
I don't think India will operate PAK-FA it's pointless when we are having modified or more precisely upgraded version of PAK-FA why would IAF want standard PAK-FA ??? If FGFA take too long and if there will be a emmence threat then IAF might consider having 1/2 PAK-FA squd as stop gap but it is still highly unlikely


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## Yogi

Sergi said:


> Can you link something to Bolded part ???
> I don't think India will operate PAK-FA it's pointless when we are having modified or more precisely upgraded version of PAK-FA why would IAF want standard PAK-FA ??? If FGFA take too long and if there will be a emmence threat then IAF might consider having 1/2 PAK-FA squd as stop gap but it is still highly unlikely



Sorry i might have messed up that part a bit, let me put is this way..

Original FGFA was supposed to be 2 seater but now IAF is gonna to operate only single seater plane like PAK FA.

But IAF there is a possibility that IAF may in Future again go for 2 seater FGFA...

But i should have written single seater n double seater instead of PAK FA n FGFA


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## Sergi

Yogi said:


> Sorry i might have messed up that part a bit, let me put is this way..
> 
> Original FGFA was supposed to be 2 seater but now IAF is gonna to operate only single seater plane like PAK FA.
> 
> But IAF there is a possibility that IAF may in Future again go for 2 seater FGFA...
> 
> But i should have written single seater n double seater instead of PAK FA n FGFA



hahahah it's ok. Still right now NOBODY knows what we are going for. May be it will be more clear after Putin's visit. Right now we know nothing. Only confirm info availbe is IAF had decided to give up twin seater. If true then we will be having FGFA real soon than the earlier mentioned timelines of twin seater FGFA

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## rockstarIN

Sergi said:


> Can you link something to Bolded part ???
> I don't think India will operate PAK-FA it's pointless when we are having modified or more precisely upgraded version of PAK-FA why would IAF want standard PAK-FA ??? If FGFA take too long and if there will be a emmence threat then IAF might consider having 1/2 PAK-FA squd as stop gap but it is still highly unlikely



Possible, as per the initial reports, India to buy single seated 50 PAF -FA and 200 FGFA. (duel seated)
Now there are alot of conflicting reportsd are coming in as we will order less and FGFA will be sinle seated.


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## Sergi

rockstar said:


> Possible, as per the initial reports, India to buy single seated 50 PAF -FA and 200 FGFA. (duel seated)
> Now there are alot of conflicting reportsd are coming in as we will order less and FGFA will be sinle seated.



As per Sancho's opinion there was never a official statement on this project. All info or mis-info came out from the off record interview of CAS. So all is rumer mill. 

That's why we will be able to see a clear pic after Putin's visit and when we actually sign the JV


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## selvan33

IAF Scales Down FGFA Numbers By A Third: Report 
The Indian Air Force has scaled down its requirement for the proposed Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) by 70 aircraft -- it has not put down a requirement now for just 144 aircraft, down from 214 earlier stated (166 single seaters and 48 twin-seaters). In an interview to India Strategic magazine, IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne has said that all 144 of these will be single-seater aircraft (which explains the modified single-seat wind-tunnel model unveiled recently by HAL).


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> What's the difference between PAKFA and FGFA?



Materials, cockpit design, avionics, possibly some weapons and most likely the engine (at least compared to the early Pak Fa versions that might use the 117S engine of Su 35).
That's what we know more or less so far, other differents in terms of design could come for IRST, MAWS and engine cover shapings, much is speculated in that regard too. 




KRAIT said:


> FGFA will be Indianized version of PAKFA. It will have HAL as its partner which will make changes according to our requirements. Israeli and French avionics that were used in Su-30 to convert into Su- 30 MKI, you can say it is analogous to it. India will be installing its own technologies and technologies from other countries that it has acquired in ToT and bought from them.
> 
> I think Sancho can explain more about it.



One can distinguish them like this:

MKI was a Russian fighter, where India were able to choose different technical options for their version, that wasn't available for any customer, similar to the F16 Block 60 deal of the UAE.

FGFA on the other side is a joint development, with both countries sharing half of this version and India beeing able to add changes according to their own requirements, be it for materials, coatings or the cockpit design. The fact that it is owned by India too, makes it more comparable to the Brahmos, MTA, or even the JF 17 co-development of Pakistan an China.




Sergi said:


> As per Sancho's opinion there was never a official statement on this project. All info or mis-info came out from the off record interview of CAS. So all is rumer mill.
> 
> That's why we will be able to see a clear pic after Putin's visit and when we actually sign the JV



The problem is, that we have very less real official statements, but very much media speculations and since Air marshal brown took over, possibly also some changes in the program itself!

It's only 1 year when Air Chief Naik retired and before he did he gave an interview with NDTV and clearly stated 214 FGFA would be procured. That rules out any speculated early Pak Fa procurement and he never even mentioned any single seat versions at all. He also stated that the number of FGFA for IAF could go up to 250 or even 300 fighters in earlier statements, just like FGFA was always considered as the twin seat version, once because it fits to IAFs doctrine, secondly if offers more export potential as we can see with the Su 30s. The Russians even offered HAL to design the twin seat version, as a part of their contribution!
Since Air marshal Brown took over, we have seen much speculations about numbers and what version we get, but often based on "unnamed" official sources, or from what the Air marshal is said to have stated (*no quotes!*), so we have the problem to figure out what is real and what is not.

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## Gessler

Unfortunately Browne bhai wont be ACM by the time FGFA is inducted.

I think the IAF began paying less attention to twin-seat variant becoz the upgraded Super Sukhoi
which includes many tech originally developed for PAKFA could be enough to train new FGFA pilots,,,
just a guess.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> I think the IAF began paying *less attention to twin-seat variant* becoz the upgraded Super Sukhoi *which includes many tech originally developed for PAKFA* could be enough to train new FGFA pilots,,,
> just a guess.



The one has nothing to do with the other and is not correct as well. Super 30 actually might only share AESA radar as the base tech, but not necessarily the same one, neither will it have the same engine, since it's just under development, same goes for most weapons as well.
The switch to single seat is mainly bad, because we could have joined the Pak Fa development way earlier and the Indian contribution in the design would be less than initially planned. We have a tendency to make things more complicated as it should be and this would be just another prove for it.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> The one has nothing to do with the other and is not correct as well. Super 30 actually might only share AESA radar as the base tech, but not necessarily the same one, neither will it have the same engine, since it's just under development, same goes for most weapons as well.
> The switch to single seat is mainly bad, because we could have joined the Pak Fa development way earlier and the Indian contribution in the design would be less than initially planned. We have a tendency to make things more complicated as it should be and this would be just another prove for it.


 @sancho is it not highy speculative at this point? No real specs have come out on either the Super Sukhoi or the PAF-FA/FGFA. Also there are many conflicting reports about numbers, specs, schedule etc Nothing is clear right now.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho is it not highy speculative at this point? No real specs have come out on either the Super Sukhoi or the PAF-FA/FGFA. Also there are many conflicting reports about numbers, specs, schedule etc Nothing is clear right now.



We do know that we evaluate BARS AESA or Zhuk AE as radars for Super 30 upgrade and both are not the AESAs for Pak Fa / FGFA. We do know that Russia is mordernising it's weapon package, mainly woth folding wings to fit them into the weapon bays of Pak Fa, while India wants Astra, Brahmos and even Nirbhay missiles for MKI. We do know that the 117S engine is offered for Su 30 upgrades, but we know that this is not the engine that India wants for FGFA.
So there are certain things that we can find out of the mass of speculations and cheap reporting.


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## Gessler

Is this the 4th prototype or just PS?


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## Kompromat

gessler said:


> Is this the 4th prototype or just PS?




Photoshop..


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## kurup

^^^^ Orginal

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## Arzamas 16

Yogi said:


> FGFA isn't some export version its the* Indianised version of PAK-FA n most possibly more superior due to induction of various Indian Foreign tech(SU 30 vs MKI)* as India is a partner in the Project n not just a buyer although India is gonna operate both PAKFA n FGFA...
> 
> The export version will be a water down version of PAK-FA or FGFA as per customers requirement...



Russia is rapidly closing the gap with Europe when it comes AESA development and other avionics, and since Russian R&D budget is only getting bigger every year and Europe's is shrinking we will soon surpass them. *The only way FGFA will be superior to the PAK FA if get US tech which never going to happen.*


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## Kompromat

Yogi said:


> FGFA isn't some export version its the Indianised version of PAK-FA n most possibly more superior due to induction of various Indian Foreign tech(SU 30 vs MKI) as India is a partner in the Project n not just a buyer although India is gonna operate both PAKFA n FGFA...
> 
> The export version will be a water down version of PAK-FA or FGFA as per customers requirement...



Dream on....


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Russia is rapidly closing the gap with Europe when it comes AESA development and other avionics, and since Russian R&D budget is only getting bigger every year and Europe's is shrinking we will soon surpass them. *The only way FGFA will be superior to the PAK FA if get US tech which never going to happen.*



Or Israeli tech or French tech, in certain areas even Indian tech. Russias defence budget is increasing again, but still not even close to the level that would be needed to modernise your forces in the way it would be needed, that's why you need us as a partner, that's why you keep trying to get the Brazilians as a partner too and the simple fact that Russia is trying to buy more and more Israeli/European arms & techs, shows, that they remain to be superior in several fields.
However, for Russia it will be a clear advantage on the export market to offer Russian aircrafts with European avionics and engines, which are more reliable and capable, while the costs will remain reasonable. Co-developments with Europeans are even better and might be interesting for many ex-soviet countries or the Arab Spring countries, which want to modernise as well. 



Aeronaut said:


> Dream on....



No need to, because he is right! An export version is a downgraded version with less capable techs than the original customer has. The US for example sells their F16s in most cases with way less capable EW systems, one reasons why the Israelis customised their fighters, or why countries that could afford it, bought European fighters with better systems.
Same goes for Russia, which uses IRBIS-E PESA radars in their Su 35s, an upgraded version of our BARS radar, that was used only for export Su 30s. That made the Su 35 so far the best Flanker version, but that will change with the Super 30 upgrade, since it will add AESA radar, modernised avionics...
FGFA on the other side is not a simple procurement for India, but a co-developement, with the same or even more capable Russian techs, that they might use in their early versions (117S engine of the Su 35 vs new developed AL 41 engine), while we add a higher focus on a low RCS, can add better avionics and if needed even better weapons, although I think we will stick to an Indo-Russian weapon package.
So when we get the best of Russia and further improve it, or add more capable other parts, our version should be more capable isn't it?

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## Sergi

Aeronaut said:


> Dream on....



If he is wrong Why not explain your opinion than just a rant ???


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## Yogi

Arzamas 16 said:


> Russia is rapidly closing the gap with Europe when it comes AESA development and other avionics, and since Russian R&D budget is only getting bigger every year and Europe's is shrinking we will soon surpass them. *The only way FGFA will be superior to the PAK FA if get US tech which never going to happen.*



Just answer my simple question :

If Russians have everything best of the class from onboard sensors to avionics on PAKFA then what was the need for FGFA ???

If mean after all we r paying half of the R&D cost then why would we go for something less if Russian got best everything(2nd only to the US)???

I m not undermining the Russian competence in aircraft manufacturing but only stating that there r some gadgets n electronics or even avionics where Israel or French perform slightly better than the Russians...
If u still don't agree than u can compare the original SU30 with MKI in terms of avionics n on board system n u'll get ur answer....


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## Yogi

Aeronaut said:


> Dream on....



Its funny to see even the MODs trolling on PDF n posting one liners....

Whats there in my post that u didn't understand???

We r contributing roughly $6 billion in R&D for PAKFA that will ensure we get everything what the Russian got(no waterdown version) with full TOT plus we'll incorporate the best from Israel, France n India to make it FGFA...

N ofcourse all the third countries will get the water down versions like every other deal even Chinese weapons in Pak forces...


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## kurup

Zoom the above pic to see incredible design details of T50


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## Kompromat

Yogi said:


> Its funny to see even the MODs trolling on PDF n posting one liners....
> 
> Whats there in my post that u didn't understand???
> 
> We r contributing roughly $6 billion in R&D for PAKFA that will ensure we get everything what the Russian got(no waterdown version) with full TOT plus we'll incorporate the best from Israel, France n India to make it FGFA...
> 
> N ofcourse all the third countries will get the water down versions like every other deal even Chinese weapons in Pak forces...




I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...


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## Yogi

Aeronaut said:


> I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...



Had that been the case we wouldn't have invested $6 billion in R&D for PAKFA, we would have directly bought it off the shelf like in the case of SUs, Migs or the Rafale...

Do u think Indians r stupid enough to invest half the cost R&D of a fifth gen fighter to get a water down version with no tot then what can i say looks like u guys have a habit of living in la la land.....


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## Kompromat

Yogi said:


> Had that been the case we wouldn't have invested $6 billion in R&D for PAKFA, we would have directly bought it off the shelf like in the case of SUs, Migs or the Rafale...
> 
> Do u think Indians r stupid enough to invest half the cost R&D of a fifth gen fighter to get a water down version with no tot then what can i say looks like u guys have a habit of living in la la land.....



Which part of this post is worth replying to ?


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## Yogi

Aeronaut said:


> Which part of this post is worth replying to ?



if u had some facts to back ur claim then u would have done that long back n u wouldn't have to ask this question...


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## Skull and Bones

Aeronaut said:


> I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...



Not exactly, if that was the case then the Israelis never would have demanded a stripped down basic version of F-35s with an option to plug in their own avionics, isn't?


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## Kompromat

Yogi said:


> if u had some facts to back ur claim then u would have done that long back n u wouldn't have to ask this question...



PAK-FA is a Russian machine, the fact that you gave them some cash for R&D doesn't mean they will sell you a grade A PAK-FA. UAE Paid 3 Billion for the F-16E/F R&D, would it make the desert eagle a UAE Jet? No.

Russians will not sell A grade PAK-FA to anyone- it WILL be a downgraded version. As the F-35 USAF will be using is much more advanced and has lower RCS than the ones being sold to other nations.


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## arp2041

Aeronaut said:


> PAK-FA is a Russian machine, the fact that you gave them some cash for R&D doesn't mean they will sell you a grade A PAK-FA. UAE Paid 3 Billion for the F-16E/F R&D, would it make the desert eagle a UAE Jet? No.
> 
> Russians will not sell A grade PAK-FA to anyone- it WILL be a downgraded version. As the F-35 USAF will be using is much more advanced and has lower RCS than the ones being sold to other nations.



Analogy is completely wrong, if UAE gave some money for the development of F-16s doesn't make it a UAE jet at all, but the difference in PAK-FA project is that it is a Russian, Indian project whose R&D costs are shared nearly 50-50 by both countries, PAK-FA/FGFA is a joint Indo-Russian project, India is not claiming it as it's own project. Everything, & i repeat Everthing will be shared with India since India is the partner in the project. And yes, FGFA will be a better plane than PAK-FA since it will have Indian, French, Israeli, Russian systems on it, while PAK-FA will only have Russian systems, u should believe it since after making basic sukhoi-30 & with IAF further modifying it into sukhoi-30mkis, RuAF has currently gone for su-30 MKI's only, which was made for IAF, not MKK nor basic MK variants.

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## SpArK

Aeronaut said:


> PAK-FA is a Russian machine, the fact that you gave them some cash for R&D doesn't mean they will *sell you a grade A PAK-FA*. UAE Paid 3 Billion for the F-16E/F R&D, would it make the desert eagle a UAE Jet? No.
> 
> Russians will not sell A grade PAK-FA to anyone- it WILL be a *downgraded version*. As the F-35 USAF will be using is much more advanced and has lower RCS than the ones being sold to other nations.



Downgraded what??? 

Do you *have a name* of *a single item* among the 1000s of parts in an aircraft that will be downgraded. 

I am all ears for *that* piece of information.

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## SpArK

single item,............... anyone?


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## Yogi

Aeronaut said:


> PAK-FA is a Russian machine, the fact that you gave them some cash for R&D doesn't mean they will sell you a grade A PAK-FA. UAE Paid 3 Billion for the F-16E/F R&D, would it make the desert eagle a UAE Jet? No.
> 
> Russians will not sell A grade PAK-FA to anyone- it WILL be a downgraded version. As the F-35 USAF will be using is much more advanced and has lower RCS than the ones being sold to other nations.



There is lot of difference between the way the Americans deal n the way the Russians deal...
America isn't ready to share its tech with even its closest alleys Japan has been cribbing for f22 for ages but US ain't ready to sell off the shelf f22s let alone tech transfer in fact they aren't even ready to share small weapon tech like as in case pf Javlin sale to India, on the top of that even if they sell anything they keep a constant watch to avoid any leakage

whereas Russians have a history of sharing some of the most forbidden techs in defense industry with India like Nuke Subs, Cryogenic Engine, etc. etc.

the Arabs(UAE) u r talking about r the worst buyers as far as tech transfer in concerned u just can't compare their dealing with the US to that of India n Russia

Besides the Americans aren't dependent on Arab Petro dollars for their R&D although they do earn hefty some from selling their weapons to them but thats not the case with Russians they aren't as cash rich as the Americans to fund their projects

Have u ever seen the Americans dealing with the Chinese after their tech was stolen but u still see Russians dealing with them but i know no matter how hard i try to explain to u, u r just to adamant to make a genuine reasoning so lets agree to disagree....


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## selvan33

Aeronaut said:


> PAK-FA is a Russian machine, the fact that you gave them some cash for R&D doesn't mean they will sell you a grade A PAK-FA. UAE Paid 3 Billion for the F-16E/F R&D, would it make the desert eagle a UAE Jet? No.
> 
> Russians will not sell A grade PAK-FA to anyone- it WILL be a downgraded version. As the F-35 USAF will be using is much more advanced and has lower RCS than the ones being sold to other nations.




you have to understand one thing first. we are the development partner not a production partner for FGFA. and second thing we are not getting from US we are getting from russia. i hope there is no need for further expalnation.


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## selvan33

FGFA &#8211; Quantum leap for Indian aerospace

September 18, 2012
Rakesh Krishnan Simha

The signing of the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft contract propels India to joint developer of the world&#8217;s most advanced stealth aircraft.




Russian fifth-generation fighter jet - Sukhoi T-50. Source: ITAR-TASS




Two significant developments have stirred up the world of military aviation this year. In March, the U.S. Air Force revealed it had started work to field a new Long Range Strike Bomber by the 2020s. This will be first new American strategic bomber to be built after the Cold War.



How much the global balance of power has shifted since the Cold War days was clear when it was revealed that the aircraft the American bomber might encounter in the skies will have a large Indian signature &#8211; in more ways than one. In August, the Indian Air Force announced that India and Russia are getting set to ink the final R&D contract for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) by the end of the year or early-2013. The contract is worth more than US$ 11 billion, and according to the terms of the agreement both countries will share 50 percent of the costs.




View the infographic: Russian fifth-generation fighter jet

That the FGFA would fly was never in doubt. (To meet its air defence requirements, Russia was committed to the T-50 but as the American F-35 programme has demonstrated, having partners translates into assured orders.) The only uncertain component of the programme was the extent of Indian participation. In the past couple of years there was a lot of speculation &#8211; and derisive comments &#8211; about India&#8217;s involvement. Sceptics felt it was limited to merely offering suggestions as to what the IAF wanted &#8211; such as two seats or one &#8211; while the more charitable ones believed India&#8217;s contributions would be in avionics and software.



The IAF chief&#8217;s visit to Moscow last month finally lifted the veil of secrecy about India&#8217;s participation in the world&#8217;s most eagerly awaited fighter aircraft. It is now clear that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd&#8217;s Ozar facility at Nashik in western India will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019, and they will be flown by Indian test pilots.



India moves into the big league




Related:




FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting




Fifth generation fighters provide air superiority

What defence observers have missed is that the FGFA is a quantum leap for India&#8217;s armaments industry, especially HAL. After decades of dabbling in joint production &#8211; a euphemism for screwdriver technology &#8211; India&#8217;s aerospace sector will finally step up to joint development.



This will catapult India to a new level where it will finally be able to develop advanced stealth aircraft on its own. Not even America&#8217;s leading partners in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter programme, such as Turkey or the UK, have access to such red hot technology. Instead of being a sidekick, India will be a joint partner in a leading military project.



Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to HAL. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. India will soon have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019.



An IAF official told Jane&#8217;s that the jointly developed aircraft &#8220;draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA technology demonstrator with modifications to meet the IAF specifications, which are much more stringent&#8221;.



The IAF is hopeful production fighters will roll out of the factory gates by 2022. Up to 250 of these aircraft will be inducted at an estimated cost of $35 billion. Russia will buy a similar number. While it is never easy to place a price tag on such a constantly evolving platform, the IAF estimates the cost per plane at $100 million. The total cost, including options and the value of production aircraft, will make this the biggest defence programme ever in India&#8217;s history.



Potent threat



Although the T-50&#8217;s specifications remain classified, reports indicate it features advanced stealth capability and supersonic cruising speed. Here is what Air Power Australia says: &#8220;The stealthy T-50, albeit in an early phase of development, is showing naked air combat power in the form of extreme plus agility and persistence that, with the addition of advanced sensors, countermeasures and weapons, will likely soundly defeat the F-22 Raptor but will certainly annihilate the F-35 and the Super Hornet.&#8221;



This is an explosive statement but coming from ace aircraft experts, the FGFA portends a scary decade ahead for Western air defences and pilots.



Tuning the T-50



Clearly, the designers aren&#8217;t sitting idle. A series of developments suggests the FGFA has achieved irresistible propulsion. According to the website of Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Group, which owns the Sukhoi bureau, the company has tested three T-50 prototypes in various modes, totalling around 180 sorties, including aerial refuelling hook-ups with a Russian Air Force Il-78 tanker, AESA radar scans, and large angle of attack and super manoeuvrability test flights.



Carlo Kopp of Air Power Australia and legendary aircraft analyst Bill Sweetman wonder whether the current T-50 represents the definitive configuration. &#8220;Today's round nozzles and the curvature of the aft nacelles are not at first glance stealth-optimised, and the engine is not fully masked head-on by the inlet duct,&#8221; they write in an article in Aviation Week.



To be sure, those are exactly the areas India and Russia will be working on in the months and years ahead. The IAF, for instance, has specified more than 40 improvements to the design following its observation of flying trials.



For instance, in the early stages of the programme, the IAF was keen on a two-seater fighter bomber, and in fact indicated a requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat aircraft. But since then it has jettisoned that demand will go in for only single-seat jets now. The reason is that a second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15 percent, apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity.



Exploring exports



Unlike the dollar-guzzling F-35 which perhaps wouldn&#8217;t fly without exports, the T-50 remains viable because of lower development costs and large pre-orders from Russia and India. Still exports can&#8217;t hurt. According to the IAF, the broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design and development of the aircraft, its production and joint marketing to other countries.



The Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), a Moscow-based independent defence and foreign policy think-tank, says that while India will be the first FGFA export customer, Vietnam will be probably its second buyer. CAST Director Ruslan Pukhov believes every third user of the Su-27/30 family of aircraft could be a customer for the FGFA.



Russia&#8217;s legacy



For both Russia and India the FGFA programme will be a bold new gambit, as it will overshadow even the highly successful BrahMos missile project. For, while BrahMos is also a 50:50 India-Russia venture, it is basically India&#8217;s baby; Russia has turned down an offer to buy the missile as it has the equally capable Club.



However, the FGFA programme could be a template for further defence cooperation between India and Russia. As its economy grows, India is increasingly seeking quality armaments for its armed forces and is keen to wean itself away from imports. Russia on the other hand has the knowhow and experience to produce highly capable weapons platforms. Together, they can ensure that legacy remains intact.

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## sudhir007

> The Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), a Moscow-based independent defence and foreign policy think-tank, says that while India will be the *first FGFA export customer*


I really hate this line if we are the partner then how can we are *export customer*

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## selvan33

sudhir007 said:


> I really hate this line if we are the partner then how can we are *export customer*




you have to accept the truth. because fgfa is a derivative of pak fa


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## IndoUS

selvan33 said:


> you have to accept the truth. because fgfa is a derivative of pak fa



No quite since we paid for the R&D we are partners. The FGFA will be basically the same thing except some equipment that might come from France and Israel.


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## sancho

Aeronaut said:


> I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...



First of all, there is not even a single reliable report that would suggest that we get another AESA radar, IRST, or downgraded engines as the Russians. It's even the otherway around, Russians had offered us to co-develop the NG AL 41, so when you "claim" we would get something different, isn't it on you to show any proof for it?
Secondly, you are highly mistaken about 5th gen systems, because especially Rafale already has them too. Be it Supercruise , passive detection and targeting, or advanced jamming capabilities, AESA techs for radar and EW systems, precise geolocation and so on.
Europe had made several stealth fighter tech project in the past too, which shows that they are technically more than capable to do it, but since Europe includes many single countries and the US gathered most of them into F35, there was never an interest, or a suitable budget available to develop a stealth fighter. Instead, they prefered to develop the most modern 4.5 gen fighters and intends to couple them with stealth UCAVs. Just look at how many stealth demonstrators were already developed and tested there and you will see how capable they are in techincally terms.
Not to mention that we have access to Israeli techs too, which even the US constantly ask for joint developments, be it HMS, LDPs, EW and missiles systems.

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## arbit

Aeronaut said:


> I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...



Sharing such tech is also a state policy, its not a localised issue wrt pak fa as you are making it out to be. Btw russians also helped in developing arihant's reactor. Pretty high tech you would agree. What are you stating here is merely your 'own hope'. 
But you are so used to dreaming, whether its about acquiring lost territory, acquiring latest techs which are denied to you, that everything seems same to you. I, for one, am not surprised unlike other posters here.


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## Arzamas 16

Yogi said:


> Just answer my simple question :
> 
> If Russians have everything best of the class from onboard sensors to avionics on PAKFA then what was* the need for FGFA ???
> *
> If mean after all we r paying half of the R&D cost then why would we go for something less if Russian got best everything(2nd only to the US)???
> 
> I m not undermining the Russian competence in aircraft manufacturing but only stating that there r some gadgets n electronics or even avionics *where Israel or French perform slightly better than the Russians...*
> If u still don't agree than u can compare the original SU30 with MKI in terms of avionics n on board system n u'll get ur answer....




India needs FGFA because

1. Its requirements need a two seat jet and the PAK FA is a one seat

2. Its wants diversification as much as possible, so not to be reliant on one suppler. 


Russia will surpass both France and isreal because, 

France has major economic problems, and its already cutting its defense budget and R&D, well ours gets larger every year.

Isreal economy is just to small to compete with us in the long run, even with major US aid. 




Russia is even developing a AESA radar for Ka-52 attack helicopter. Nether the Europe nor the Isreal have any comparable project.


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## Contrarian

Aeronaut said:


> I am just amazed at how you "hope" that Russians will actually sell A grade FGFA to India and even more amazed at your "hopes" that you can simply make up a shopping list, go out buy 5th generation avionics [US has a monopoly - No other EU country makes them right now -], come back integrate them in FGFA and then call it "Indian" and then how you "hope" that the FGFA will be more advanced than PAK-FA. So dream on...



It is not a hope mate. We deal with different terms with the Russians. The project would not have gone ahead had it not been for Indian funding. The Russians had refused funding from China on precisely the same terms. You would be aware that the Chinese had offered to be part of this program only so that the experience and technology they gain could be used on their own programs.

The development costs and not purchase costs are split. While it happens in nearly all cases that grade A technology is never given out, there has been a consistent exception to that rule - India with respect to Russia in many cases-however not all cases.

Our own technology has evolved in many cases that goes beyond the best Russia has to offer - an example being the MC of the Su-30MKI. To the extent that in foreign sales of Su-30, it is our MC being sold, not the Russian one which is also on offer.


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## Yogi

Arzamas 16 said:


> India needs FGFA because
> 
> 1. Its requirements need a two seat jet and the PAK FA is a one seat
> 
> 2. Its wants diversification as much as possible, so not to be reliant on one suppler.
> 
> 
> Russia will surpass both France and isreal because,
> 
> France has major economic problems, and its already cutting its defense budget and R&D, well ours gets larger every year.
> 
> Isreal economy is just to small to compete with us in the long run, even with major US aid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia is even developing a AESA radar for Ka-52 attack helicopter. Nether the Europe nor the Isreal have any comparable project.



Thats old news mate 

1. IAF has droped 2 seater plan now IAF will induct only 144 single seater FGFA only....
Now FGFA has more of become synonymous to MKI...

2.Diversification is not the correct word here although India is diversifying its suppliers but PAK-FA is a Russian product...
There is a very limited scope for diversifying suppliers for a Russian fighter as Russia already manufactures all components by itself from cockpit to jet engines....

So the question is not about diversification but rather upgrading some gadgets or parts which r either more advanced or better suited for our needs...

Besides we being a partner in project will be having our own production lines to be able to manufacture the jet from scrach to meet our demands as well as for future exports although we might remain dependent on Russian support for important components for engines,etc.

3. I my not denying that Russia can not takeover France n Israel in defense industry. I was just saying that currently France n Israel have a edge over Russia in some fields thats all...

N Israel's industry may not be significant in size but they do have access to a lot of American tech n there own industry n R&D research are also heavily funded by the US so yes they do have some edge in certain fields...


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## Arzamas 16

Yogi said:


> Thats old news mate
> 
> 1. IAF has droped 2 seater plan now IAF will induct only 144 single seater FGFA only....
> Now FGFA has more of become synonymous to MKI...
> 
> 2.Diversification is not the correct word here although India is diversifying its suppliers but PAK-FA is a Russian product...
> There is a very limited scope for diversifying suppliers for a Russian fighter as Russia already manufactures all components by itself from cockpit to jet engines....
> 
> So the question is not about diversification but rather upgrading some gadgets or parts which r either more advanced or better suited for our needs...
> 
> *Besides we being a partner in project will be having our own production lines to be able to manufacture the jet from scrach to meet our demands* as well as for future exports although we might remain dependent on Russian support for important components for engines,etc.
> 
> 3. I my not denying that Russia can not takeover France n Israel in defense industry. I was just saying that currently France n Israel have a edge over Russia in some fields thats all...
> 
> N Israel's industry may not be significant in size but they do have access to a lot of American tech n there own industry n R&D research are also heavily funded by the US so yes they do have some edge in certain fields...



*Manufacturing FGFA in India is a unlikely prospect for least another 10 years*, the First FGFA prototype will come out in 2017, at the earliest well after PAK FA is already done and in Russian air force, and after the First prototype flys expect another 3 years of testing( most of it likely done in Russia). 

and all this is assuming their are no Delays.


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## sancho



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## Gessler

^^PAKFA can take off from very short and unprepared runways Ive heard.


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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


>



Whats the purpose of stripes on nose cone ?


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## selvan33

IndoUS said:


> No quite since we paid for the R&D we are partners. The FGFA will be basically the same thing except some equipment that might come from France and Israel.




i accept we are the partner right now. but before our commitment they completed their whole designing process and they started to give an orders for that. And also you have to know one thing that our air force cancelled the twin seat version which is highly modified and designed by HAL according to IAF requirements. so we going to have only upgraded pak fa(single seaters named as FGFA)with slight modifications as per our IAF requirements.


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## Gessler

danger-zone said:


> Whats the purpose of stripes on nose cone ?



I think the stripes are present only on those PAKFAs which are carrying the new AESA radar


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## sancho

selvan33 said:


> i accept we are the partner right now. but before our commitment they completed their whole designing process and they started to give an orders for that. And also you have to know one thing that our air force cancelled the twin seat version which is highly modified and designed by HAL according to IAF requirements. so we going to have only upgraded pak fa(single seaters named as FGFA)with slight modifications as per our IAF requirements.



FGFA:

- 50% owned by India
- export share
- no downgraded techs
- no restrictions
- source codes
- ToT
- production in India


Russian part:

- airframe design
- AESA radar
- Engine (possibly jointly developed)
- IRST


Indian part:

- materials
- coatings
- cockpit design
- Indian and foreign avionics and weapons


As explained earlier, it's the next step ahead in Indo-Russian relations from the MKI deal.

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> FGFA:
> 
> - 50% owned by India
> - export share
> - no downgraded techs
> - no restrictions
> - source codes
> - ToT
> - production in India
> 
> 
> Russian part:
> 
> - airframe design
> - AESA radar
> - Engine *(possibly jointly developed)*
> - IRST
> 
> 
> Indian part:
> 
> - materials
> - coatings
> - cockpit design
> - Indian and foreign avionics and weapons
> 
> 
> As explained earlier, it's the next step ahead in Indo-Russian relations from the MKI deal.




Everything you said is true, except that, FGFA will be using Type 30 engine begin developed for production PAK FA right now.


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Everything you said is true, except that, FGFA will be using Type 30 engine begin developed for production PAK FA right now.





> 23/09/2011
> *
> India has chosen engines for fighter FGFA*
> 
> The Air Force has selected engines for India's promising fighter FGFA, produced jointly with the Russian design bureau "Dry" based on the T-50 (PAK FA) . What kind of power plants is in question did not specify. We know only that *the selected engines will be more powerful than the AL-41F1 ("Item 117"), which will be installed on the Russian T-50 in the first stage...*



http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-chosen-engines-fighter-fgfa.html#post2128476




> November 16, 2012
> 
> *Testing of new engine for PAK-FA by 2014*
> 
> &#8220;Engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing. This &#8211; essentially a new engine, so it took a long time&#8221; &#8211; said Marchuk. According to him, the weight of the new power plant will be 30 percent less *than that of the AL-41F1 (&#8220;Item 117&#8243;, the modified version of the engine AL-41F1S for the Su-35), known as the engine of the first stage...*



http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-65.html#post3607955


So:

AL-41F1S ("Item 117S or C" / 86kN dry, 142kN AB ) - Su 35S + available for Su 30 upgrades
AL-41F1 (&#8220;Item 117/ 86kN dry, 147kN&#8243; / 86kN dry, 147kN AB) - T50 + early Pak Fa 
AL-41 ("Type 30" / 107kN dry, 176kN AB) - FGFA + later Pak Fa

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-chosen-engines-fighter-fgfa.html#post2128476
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-65.html#post3607955
> 
> 
> So:
> 
> AL-41F1S ("Item 117S or C" / 86kN dry, 142kN AB ) - Su 35S + available for Su 30 upgrades
> AL-41F1 (&#8220;Item 117/ 86kN dry, 147kN&#8243; / 86kN dry, 147kN AB) - T50 + early Pak Fa
> AL-41 ("Type 30" / 107kN dry, 176kN AB) - FGFA + later Pak Fa




That's the same thing I said, that FGFA will powered by Type 30, and the lasted news is that Type 30 will be ready for the first production PAK FA and another their is really nothing *joint* about Type 30.

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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> That's the same thing I said, that FGFA will powered by Type 30, and the lasted news is that Type 30 will be ready for the first production PAK FA and another their is really nothing *joint* about Type 30.



 Not really read your post again and the last news clearly stated that the first tests for type 30 will only be on 2014, so won't be ready for Pak Fa delivery for Russian air force in 2015. Btw, Russian officials offered the joint development to India, but it's not clear if we agreed to it.


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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> Not really read your post again and the last news clearly stated that the first tests for type 30 will only be on 2014, so won't be ready for Pak Fa delivery for Russian air force in 2015. Btw, Russian officials offered the joint development to India, but it's not clear if we agreed to it.



Head of UAC said that production PAK FA will have F-22 like nozzles, so it doesn't make sense for first batch to have 117 with round nozzles, then switching to flat nozzles with Type 30 in the next batch. So not only it doesn't make sense but its *downright stupid.* If other programs are anything go by both PAK FA and FGFA will delayed. 

My own personal prediction is that PAK FA will go into service in 2016 at the earliest, with first FGFA prototype will appearing only in 2015. 

I am a realist, not a cheerleader like most members of this forum.

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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Head of UAC said that production PAK FA will have F-22 like nozzles, so it doesn't make sense for first batch to have 117 with round nozzles



Nozzles are one thing, the engine itself another. There is no problem to shape the nozzels of the current 117 like that and it even has 2D TVC, but the NG engine will come only in later stages and that's why India delayed FGFA induction too, because IAF was not ready to take a half ready 5th gen fighter. Not to mention that more important than the nozzles are the coverings of the engines, which currently are not shapped and if it finally included radar blockers, or another feature to hide the engine compressors.

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> Nozzles are one thing, the engine itself another. There is no problem to shape the nozzels of the current 117 like that and it even has 2D TVC, but the NG engine will come only in later stages and that's why India delayed FGFA induction too,* because IAF was not ready to take a half ready 5th gen fighter.* Not to mention that more important than the nozzles are the coverings of the engines, which currently are not shapped and if it finally included radar blockers, or another feature to hide the engine compressors.



Neather will the RUAF



> In April 2011, the general director of &#8220;Saturn,&#8221; Ilya Fedorov said that the establishment of the second stage engine is ahead of schedule, and the supply of new power plants is scheduled for 2015 informed the Russian Defense Ministry . *In the same year, the Russian air force to will get the first production T-50*.



Testing of the new engine for the PAK FA in 2014 | idrw.org

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## kurup



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## KRAIT

Slim Beauty.


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## 帅的一匹

sancho said:


> Nozzles are one thing, the engine itself another. There is no problem to shape the nozzels of the current 117 like that and it even has 2D TVC, but the NG engine will come only in later stages and that's why India delayed FGFA induction too, because IAF was not ready to take a half ready 5th gen fighter. Not to mention that more important than the nozzles are the coverings of the engines, which currently are not shapped and if it finally included radar blockers, or another feature to hide the engine compressors.


FGFA is just a export version of PAKFA, will Russia agree to redesign the rear part especially the nozzle covering engine compressor for India alone?


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## danger007

^^^ FGFA will be tailor made jet like MKI....


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## Gessler

wanglaokan said:


> FGFA is just a export version of PAKFA, will Russia agree to redesign the rear part especially the nozzle covering engine compressor for India alone?



Russia will induct it too.. And what objection will they have if India is reday to fund the project?


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## Sergi

wanglaokan said:


> FGFA is *just a export version* of PAKFA, will Russia agree to redesign the rear part especially the nozzle covering engine compressor for India alone?



What do you mean by the Bolded part ???
India isn't purchasing and project is JV.


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Neather will the RUAF



Yes, but they won't have the type 30 by then, because it still will remain in test and trial stage. The official statements that I showed are clear, Russian air force gets an early version of Pak Fa, with upgraded Su 35/34 techs, while the real 5th gen Pak Fa and FGFA will come only at the end of the decade.



wanglaokan said:


> FGFA is just a export version of PAKFA



Not really:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-66.html#post3610064

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-66.html#post3615155

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-68.html#post3620989




Sergi said:


> What do you mean by the Bolded part ???
> India isn't purchasing and project is JV.



Already discussed, so just ignore it.


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## Arzamas 16

> Yes, but they won't have the type 30 by then, because it still will remain in test and trial stage.* The official statements that I showed are clear,* Russian air force gets an early version of Pak Fa,



Russians officials have a history of saying one thing and end results being very different and Russian generals are world class trolls that make best ones here on PDF look rank amateurs in comparison, so if I were you I would not put much weight into those "statements", so don't be surprised they come out next month saying something completely different. 

don't believe me? I could give you dozens of examples.




> *with upgraded Su 35/34 techs, *while the real 5th gen Pak Fa and FGFA will come only at the end of the decade.



Upgraded Su-35/34 tech ?  I don't recall nether Su-35 or 34 of having AESA radar, L-band radar on its wings or another dozen feathers that i could list.


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## Gessler

I thought Su-35 has L-band radars on wings, but no AESA, stealth tech, etc. for sure.


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## Gessler

octopus said:


>



Play around with the brightness/contrast and here's what you get -





---

Another good impression of PAKFA in IAF colors -

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## arp2041

gessler said:


> Play around with the brightness/contrast and here's what you get -



No don't play around with brightness, they are The Dark Knight, Let them rise

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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Upgraded Su-35/34 tech ?  I don't recall nether Su-35 or 34 of having AESA radar, L-band radar on its wings or another dozen feathers that i could list.



- 117 engine
- IRST
- MAWS
- SATCOM


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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> - 117 engine
> - IRST
> - MAWS
> - SATCOM



117 is only used on the PAK FA prototypes, and you just proved me right because nether Su-34 or Su-35 have AESA radar, or L-band radar. 


and all the items you just posted are available on this aircraft. 

ÎÀÊ :: Íîâîñòè OAK :: Êîðïîðàöèÿ «Èðêóò» ïåðåäàëà ÂÂÑ Ðîññèè ïåðâûå äâà ñàìîëåòà Ñó-30ÑÌ


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Sergi

Arzamas 16 said:


> 117 is only used on the PAK FA prototypes, and you just proved me right because *nether Su-34 or Su-35 have AESA radar, or L-band radar.*
> 
> 
> and all the items you just posted are available on this aircraft.
> 
> ÎÀÊ :: Íîâîñòè OAK :: Êîðïîðàöèÿ «Èðêóò» ïåðåäàëà ÂÂÑ Ðîññèè ïåðâûå äâà ñàìîëåòà Ñó-30ÑÌ



For Bolded part, you mean to say Indian MKIs getting super-Sukhoi upgrade to bring them to SU-35 standard will have better radar than the standard 35 ???
I am assuming MKI upgrade consists of AESA


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## Arzamas 16

Sergi said:


> For Bolded part, you mean to say Indian MKIs getting super-Sukhoi upgrade to bring them to SU-35 standard will have better radar than the standard 35 ???
> I am assuming MKI upgrade consists of AESA



MKI upgrade includes first generation Russian AESA radar called Zhuk-AE, while PAK FA will get second generation AESA radar.


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## Gessler

Arzamas 16 said:


> MKI upgrade includes first generation Russian AESA radar called Zhuk-AE, while PAK FA will get second generation AESA radar.



Zhuk-AE is too small and too weak for the mini-AWACS type roles MKI needs to perform, isn't it?

Super-MKI may get an AESA version of BARS or Irbis-E with 400km range,Zhuk-AE is aroudn 200km only.


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## Sergi

Arzamas 16 said:


> MKI upgrade includes first generation Russian AESA radar called Zhuk-AE, while PAK FA will get second generation AESA radar.





gessler said:


> Zhuk-AE is too small and too weak for the mini-AWACS type roles MKI needs to perform, isn't it?
> 
> Super-MKI may get an AESA version of BARS or Irbis-E with 400km range,Zhuk-AE is aroudn 200km only.



Negotiations for MKI upgrade radar are still undertalk. So we can't say which Radar we are going to get yet. May be after Putin's visit more things will be cleared.


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## Arzamas 16

gessler said:


> Zhuk-AE is too small and too weak for the mini-AWACS type roles MKI needs to perform, isn't it?
> 
> Super-MKI may get an AESA version of BARS or Irbis-E with 400km range,Zhuk-AE is aroudn 200km only.



Well, you guys want a AESA radar for the upgrade, and Irbis-E is PESA radar so thats marked off the list, *Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design* is the company that makes bars radar, and they have stopped developing bars line now and their concentrating all their efforts on making a AESA radar for PAK FA. 

so if you guys want AESA radar for Super-MKI upgrade you either get Zhuk-AE or you have wait another 4 years PAK FA's AESA to be ready, probably much longer because RUAF will get all
the production examples first.


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## sudhir007



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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> 117 is only used on the PAK FA prototypes, and you just proved me right because nether Su-34 or Su-35 have AESA radar, or L-band radar.



That's what you claim, but so far I take the statements of Russian officials as more reliable. Btw, I never stated anything about AESA radar or so, that's what you did. I pointed out the systems the early Pak Fa will have as modernised parts of the Su 35 and 34.



Arzamas 16 said:


> and all the items you just posted are available on this aircraft



Not really, it neither have the 117 engines of the Su 35, but the same AL 31 with TVC that MKI has as well, neither does it have the IR MAWS, nor the SATCOM of the Su 34, if at all, it has the same IRST, but that's it.




gessler said:


> Zhuk-AE is too small



The size of a radar is not fixed, additional AESA modules can be added to a bigger nose, that's why the Russians integrated 3 x different Zhuk AEs into Mig 35 prototypes, to reach the promised 200Km detection range, by increasing the nose diameter. The problem is, that weight will be increased as well and the radar turned out to be too heavy and they had to stick to smaller versions, with less range again.
Zhuk AE in MKI would have a diameter of around 900mm, while it had 688mm in the Mig, so much space for more modules and more power.




Arzamas 16 said:


> Well, you guys want a AESA radar for the upgrade, and Irbis-E is PESA radar so thats marked off the list, Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design is the company that makes bars radar, *and they have stopped developing bars line now and their concentrating all their efforts on making a AESA radar for PAK FA*.



Wrong, they have developed an AESA version of BARS, which is not that complicated anyway and it is on offer for IAF as well, but so far there is no decision made about which radar IAF will procure. BARS AESA will be an easier upgrade for IAF and sticking with Tikhomirov is the better option for the future too, since they will develop the radar for Pak Fa / FGFA as well.


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## Arzamas 16

> That's what you claim, but so far I take the statements of Russian officials as more reliable. Btw, I never stated anything about AESA radar or so, that's what you did. I pointed out the systems the early Pak Fa will have as *modernised *parts of the Su 35 and 34.



Your previous post 



> Yes, but they won't have the type 30 by then, because it still will remain in test and trial stage. The official statements that I showed are clear, Russian air force gets an early version of Pak Fa, with *upgraded* Su 35/34 techs, while the real 5th gen Pak Fa and FGFA will come only at the end of the decade.



Upgraded or modernized both your terminologies are wrong, at best PAK FA avionics are an
a evolution of the Su-35s, in fact the very presence of an second generation AESA radar on the PAK FA makes your whole argument wrong, and only thing that might not be developed on time for early PAK FA is the Type 30 engine, while everything else will be ready and tested. 




> Not really, it neither have the *117 engines of the Su 35*, but the same AL 31 with TVC that MKI has as well, neither does it have the IR MAWS, nor the SATCOM of the Su 34, if at all, it has the same IRST, but that's it.



You got your engine's mixed up, Su-35 uses *117S* , while 117 is only used on PAK FA prototypes. 

Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Upgraded or modernized both your terminologies are wrong, at best PAK FA avionics are an
> a evolution of the Su-35s,



Your denial gets really boring! An evolution will be the *newly* developed AESA radar, the *newly* developed type 30 engine and the design in general, but the early Pak Fas as shown, will used upgraded techs from Su 35 too, like the engine for example, which are upgraded AL 31s. That makes it easier for Rusian air force to get an early induction and not wait for the fully developed 5th gen Pak Fa, while IAF rejected this early version and will wait for the final one.


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## Arzamas 16

> Your denial gets really boring!



Your lack of knowledge is getting disturbing. 




> An evolution will be the *newly* developed AESA radar



2015 PAK FA will be carrying this radar 


Tikhomirov new AESA





Irbis-E





Upgraded Su-35 radar riiiiiiiiiiiight 




> the *newly* developed type 30 engine and the design in general, but the early Pak Fas as shown, will used upgraded techs from Su 35 too, like the engine for example, which are upgraded AL 31s.



This is about the only thing you got right.



> That makes it easier for Rusian air force to get an early induction and not wait for the fully developed 5th gen Pak Fa, while IAF rejected this early version and will wait for the final one.



Their is no such thing early PAK FA or final PAK FA, you guys made that made term up, *Like I said hundred times before the only thing that might not be ready by 2015, is type 30 engine* everything else will that its it.


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## sancho



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## anant_s

There is no definitive information on RCS of T-50 and i'm searching for the same for quite some time. I found a graphic showing RCS for T-50 at 0.3 wavelength.





Now whats interesting to note here is that there is a significant area of plane that has RCS in positive dBsm range which makes it VLO but not truly stealthy.
Also i'm not sure how does the RCS look from bottom of plane the belly is depressed and not smooth as J-20 or F-22A.


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## sancho

> Fourth PAK FA made &#8203;&#8203;its maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur
> 
> Moscow, December 12. Today in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the Holding "Sukhoi" Aircraft Production Association named after Y. Gagarin (KnAAPO) the first flight of the fourth prototype prospective fifth-generation aircraft (PAK FA). The plane was piloted by distinguished test pilot of the Russian Federation, the Hero of Russia Sergey Bogdan. Fighter spent forty minutes in the air and landed on the runway of the factory airfield. The flight was successful, in full accordance with the flight plan. During the flight test was conducted stability of the aircraft, the evaluation of the systems of power plant. The aircraft performed well in all phases of the planned flight program. Pilot said reliable operation of all systems and equipment.
> 
> The first flight of the PAK FA took place on January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. Currently we are working on a whole range of ground and flight tests. They are attended by three aircraft. To date for the flight test program made about 200 flights.

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## Jason bourne

T-50-4

ÎÀÎ "Êîìïàíèÿ "Ñóõîé" - Íîâîñòè - Íîâîñòè êîìïàíèè


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## Sergi

@sancho: any thing specific about 4th Proto ??? Modification,radar,coating any visible difference with first 3 prototypes ???


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho: any thing specific about 4th Proto ??? Modification,radar,coating any visible difference with first 3 prototypes ???



Hard to tell, since only the second pic is in high resolution and can be zoomed, but according to some other forums another set of sensors were added to the sides and the bottom of the cockpit:

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## The A-5

sancho said:


> Hard to tell, since only the second pic is in high resolution and can be zoomed, but according to some other forums another set of sensors were added to the sides and the bottom of the cockpit:



Sir, are those IRSTs?

Or are they EOTS like that on F-35?


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## IndoUS

sancho said:


> Hard to tell, since only the second pic is in high resolution and can be zoomed, but according to some other forums another set of sensors were added to the sides and the bottom of the cockpit:



What are those sensors used for? Tracking of targets or as a substitute for the pilot vision?


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## The A-5

IndoUS said:


> What are those sensors used for? Tracking of targets or as a substitute for the pilot vision?



If they are IRST, then I think FGFA will have that 360-degree infra-red surveillance capability achieved for
the F-35 by the Grumman-developed Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture Systen (EO-DAS).

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## The A-5

sancho said:


>











Is there any difference on the rim of the nozzles of T-50-4 and T-50-1? Or is it just a trick of the light?

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## sancho

The A-5 said:


> Sir, are those IRSTs?
> 
> Or are they EOTS like that on F-35?



Sancho is more than enough. 

No, the IRST of Pak Fa is similar to the older Flanker versions on the nose and EOTS is an integrated targeting pod with IRST functions, while we have seen a dedicated Russian LDP for Pak FA on the last MAKS air show:







They could be the additional optical sensors of the 101KS system, which includes IRST in the front, MAWS behind the cockpit and additional sensors around the airframe, but so far it wasn't clear where they would be fitted:






























The A-5 said:


> Is there any difference on the rim of the nozzles of T-50-4 and T-50-1? Or is it just a trick of the light?



No the nozzles are the same and might change only with the NG engine, only the tail sting differs in these pics, but they have tested different once.

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## anant_s

#1054
Some closeup pictures of the device are here
Unfortunately translation is not working. The device by looks of it looks like an optical sensor.
Pics 


































The placard does have description written over it. Can some Russian mate help in translation.

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## Vasily Zaytsev

sancho said:


>




Is there L band radar behind LEVCON ? There is something behind LEVCON !!!


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## rockstarIN

The A-5 said:


> Is there any difference on the rim of the nozzles of T-50-4 and T-50-1? Or is it just a trick of the light?



As per both picture the tail also different, the new one more shaped for LO, MEANS those long tails will be there in the final version too?


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## sancho

Pics in higher resolution and a first video:






http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4115/167229822.f/0_ac9f9_dad181e3_-2-orig

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4133/167229822.f/0_ac9fb_bb3420ac_-2-XXXL

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4128/167229822.f/0_ac9fc_124806c7_-2-XXXL


Ïîëåò èñòðåáèòåëÿ ïÿòîãî ïîêîëåíèÿ: ñèñòåìû îòðàáîòàëè áåç ñáîåâ


Confirmation for 101KS sensors in the side:

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Sancho is more than enough.
> 
> No, the IRST of Pak Fa is similar to the older Flanker versions on the nose and EOTS is an integrated targeting pod with IRST functions, while we have seen a dedicated Russian LDP for Pak FA on the last MAKS air show:


 @sancho do you not think that the IAF would like to intergrate a Western LDP for their FGFAs?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho do you not think that the IAF would like to intergrate a Western LDP for their FGFAs?



Hopefully not, because it's silly to use an external LDP for a stealth fighter that carries it's LGBs internally. I hope we go for an internal version, maybe based on the Litening techs and with Rafael, but external carriage is not the way to go.


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## The A-5

sancho said:


> Hopefully not, because it's silly to use an external LDP for a stealth fighter that carries it's LGBs internally. I hope we go for an internal version, maybe based on the Litening techs and with Rafael, but external carriage is not the way to go.



Sancho I think the LDP could be mounted internally in the space between the front weapon bay and the dielectric part of nose cone, perhaps a little to the back of the the small sensor seen under the cockpit fuselage in the above pics.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Hopefully not, because it's silly to use an external LDP for a stealth fighter that carries it's LGBs internally. I hope we go for an internal version, maybe based on the Litening techs and with Rafael, but external carriage is not the way to go.


I wasn't suggesting an external LDP, but was wondering whether you see the IAF going for a LDP of Western origin/with Western tech?


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## DANGER-ZONE

rockstar said:


> As per both picture the tail also different, the new one more shaped for LO, MEANS those long tails will be there in the final version too?



The long pointed shape tail, similar to Flanker's, appeared in second PT only. I don't think it will be the part of production aircraft. 
If I am not wrong the wide tail section houses a small radar. To me, tail of PT-1,3,4 looks better, and it has LO shape unlike the round one. 

Engine nozzles are the same, its the angle of light which is highlihting joints b/w upper and lower plates of nozzle or the edges of upper plates.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I wasn't suggesting an external LDP, but was wondering whether you see the IAF going for a LDP of Western origin/with Western tech?



That for sure, the Russian optical systems aren't that advanced as western, I wouldn't be surprised if we go for other MAWS... as well.

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## The A-5

danger-zone said:


> The long pointed shape tail, similar to Flanker's, appeared in second PT only. I don't think it will be the part of production aircraft.
> If I am not wrong the wide tail section houses a small radar. To me, tail of PT-1,3,4 looks better, and it has LO shape unlike the round one.
> 
> Engine nozzles are the same, its the angle of light which is highlihting joints b/w upper and lower plates of nozzle or the edges of upper plates.



Yes the tail-sting is known to house an X-band rear-looking AESA radar.



sancho said:


> That for sure, the Russian optical systems aren't that advanced as western, I wouldn't be surprised if we go for other MAWS... as well.



Sancho do you think an advanced version of AN/AAR-60(v)2 (as on Super-MKI) will be available for
FGFA? Maybe India should develop its own MAWS by then.


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## sancho

The A-5 said:


> Sancho do you think an advanced version of AN/AAR-60(v)2 (as on Super-MKI) will be available for
> FGFA? Maybe India should develop its own MAWS by then.



Any source that Super MKI will have this? For FGFA it is known that IAF wants 360° passive sensors, but not what kind, so we will have to wait and see.

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## The A-5

sancho said:


> Any source that Super MKI will have this? For FGFA it is known that IAF wants 360° passive sensors, but not what kind, so we will have to wait and see.



That Sengupta fellow said it.

Here: - TRISHUL: Super Su-30MKI: From Air Dominance To Air Supremacy



> The integrated defensive aids suite, now being developed by a joint venture of DARE and Cassidian of Germany, will include the MILDS AN/AAR-60 missile approach warning system (MAWS).





> The open-architecture IDAS has been under joint development by DARE and Germany-based Cassidian since 2006, and will include the *AAR-60(V)2 MILDS F missile approach warning system*, the EW management computer and Tarang Mk3 radar warning receiver (developed by DARE and built by Bharat Electronics Ltd), a countermeasures dispenser built by Bharat Dynamics Ltd, TsNIRTI-developed expendable active electronic decoys, a reusable fibre-optic ABRL active radar towed-decoy using suppression, deception and seduction techniques, and an internal EW suite supplied by Elettronica of Italy (the very same Virgilius suite that is on board the MiG-29UPG).


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## sancho

The A-5 said:


> That Sengupta fellow said it



 Ahh, ok. Don't give too much about his claims.

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## The A-5

*Could this be the N-050 AESA radar ??*


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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> That for sure, the Russian optical systems aren't that advanced as western, I wouldn't be surprised if we go for other MAWS... as well.



Most of the specs on the PAK FA avionics are classified so comparing too anything is a bit premature don't you think ?


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## selvan33

Arzamas 16 said:


> Most of the specs on the PAK FA avionics are classified so comparing too anything is a bit premature don't you think ?



Yes. still sukhoi producing prototypes only. so we have to wait another 2 to 3 years. then we can start comparing it with matured platforms.


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Most of the specs on the PAK FA avionics are classified so comparing too anything is a bit premature don't you think ?



Have I compared Pak Fa avionics, but Russian optical systems compared to western counterparts? Why do you think most Su 30 customers prefered western MAWS, LDPs over Russian once? Russia even asked Israeli or European manufacturers for JVs wrt fighter or UAV avionics and developments and even if you compare the optical capabilities of Russian IR missiles to western, you will see big differences.


----------



## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> Have I compared Pak Fa avionics, but Russian optical systems compared to western counterparts? Why do you think most Su 30 customers prefered western MAWS, LDPs over Russian once? Russia even asked Israeli or European manufacturers for JVs wrt fighter or UAV avionics and developments and even if you compare the optical capabilities of* Russian IR missiles to western, you will see big differences.*



R-73 was the first IR missile to have off-boresight capabilities. It went into service in 1980s the West didn't match it until the early 2000.


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## Sergi

Arzamas 16 said:


> R-73 was the first IR missile to have off-boresight capabilities. It went into service in 1980s the West didn't match it until the early 2000.


Ya defiantly but USSR. But what's today's status of new Russain missiles ??? (Seeking information only no other intentions )


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## The A-5

Sergi said:


> Ya defiantly but USSR. But what's today's status of new Russain missiles ??? (Seeking information only no other intentions )



Russian missiles there is nothing wrong with them. PAK-FA I think will have the RVV-MD WVR AAM with
max 40km range with offboresight capabilities and can engage targets maneuvering at 12_g_.


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## Sergi

The A-5 said:


> Russian missiles there is nothing wrong with them. PAK-FA I think will have the RVV-MD WVR AAM with
> max 40km range with offboresight capabilities and can engage targets maneuvering at 12_g_.



I am not saying there is anything wrong. I am just asking him on the comparison point. He is good with info


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> R-73 was the first IR missile to have off-boresight capabilities. It went into service in 1980s the West didn't match it until the early 2000.



Not really, even older AIM 9 versions had better, but the west were surprised by R73s agility with TCV features, that's why they added this capability in newer vesions to counter that advantage. Not to mention that since the fall of the Soviet Union, there is hardly much improvement in regard to fighter weapons, or avionics anyway.

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## sancho

Credits to Gessler

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> Not really, even older AIM 9 versions had better, but the west were surprised by R73s agility with TCV features, that's why they added this capability in newer vesions to counter that advantage. Not to mention that since the fall of the Soviet Union, there is hardly much improvement in regard to fighter weapons, or avionics anyway.



Oh really 



> In 1985, the Soviet Union did field a solid rocket motor (SRM) missile (AA-11 Archer/R-73) that was very similar to Agile. *At that point, the Soviet Union took the lead in SRM technology* and correspondingly fielded improved InfraRed Counter Measures (IRCM) to defeat or reduce the effectiveness of the latest Sidewinders.



AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Credits to Gessler



well is the pic edited by our indian member GESSLER.

if it true then gessy darling has done a good job
cheers

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> well is the pic edited by our indian member GESSLER.
> 
> if it true then gessy darling has done a good job
> cheers



Yes it is, although his referals to EOTS might not be correct, it's indeed a good job.


Btw, some more of Pak Fa:











And another video of the latest prototype:

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## The A-5

sancho said:


>



Sancho it appears the nose finish of the 4th prototype is finer than the earlier 3 modles -


----------



## Yeti

ÊÍÀÀÏÎ*- Ãàëåðåÿ - Ñàìîëåòû - Áîåâûå - Ò-50 - Ò-50-4


&#1058;-50-4 pics

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## sancho

The A-5 said:


> Sancho it appears the nose finish of the 4th prototype is finer than the earlier 3 modles



There seems to be some changes around the airframe and the new high resolution pics are great to compare.


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## arp2041

sancho said:


> Credits to Gessler


 @gessler nice job bro......thanks

wonder when u will get un-banned??


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## sancho

A PS as I believe, but the color scheme for IAF should be similar at the end.

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## kurup

^^^^ very nice picture .

A flattened nozzle would have been more beautiful .


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## The A-5

octopus said:


> ^^^^ very nice picture .
> 
> A flattened nozzle would have been more beautiful .



2D (or 2.5D) flat stealthy nozzles are under development in Russia right now - I expect them by 2014.


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## kurup

The A-5 said:


> 2D (or 2.5D) flat stealthy nozzles are under development in Russia right now - I expect them by 2014.



They already have the technology .








AFAIK , they have patented a new concept for PAK FA


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## sancho

> *Russia&#8217;s 5th Generation Fighter Jet to Start State Tests in March*
> 
> Russia's fifth-generation stealth jet fighter, the T-50, will start state flight tests in March 2013, Russia&#8217;s Air Force Commander, Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev said on Sunday.
> 
> Currently three fighter jets are performing test flights at the Zhukovsky airfield outside Moscow, the fourth plane is undergoing factory test trials and the fifth plane is in the process of factory approvals, the commander said.
> 
> All these planes will fly to Akhtubinsk in the Astrakhan Region in March next year where &#8220;state tests will begin,&#8221; he said.
> 
> There will be a total of eight planes involved in state trials in Akhtubinsk throughout 2013, the commander said.
> 
> &#8220;We&#8217;ll complete them [the tests] within 2-2.5 years and somewhere in 2015-early 2016 these planes are expected to go into serial production and we&#8217;ll start receiving them and supplying our combat units with them,&#8221; the commander said...
> 
> ...The Russian Defense Ministry plans to purchase a first batch of 10 evaluation aircraft and then 60 production-standard aircraft after 2015.



Russia

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## Koovie

When will IAF pilots get their hands on the first prototype?? 
I read something about 2014??? But cant find it again


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## nair

Koovie said:


> When will IAF pilots get their hands on the first prototype??
> I read something about 2014??? But cant find it again



I just read india gonna induct FGFA from 2022 onwards!!!!

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## Koovie

nair said:


> I just read india gonna induct FGFA from 2022 onwards!!!!



I know that  , but I was asking about the time when the 1st prototype will arrive here.

PS: Got it,* " So the first prototype will actually join us in 2014, the second around 2016-17 and the third prototype in 2019. "*

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/m...4-air-chief-tells-ndtv-full-transcript-276000

From the Air Chief Marshal personally! So me may see the first one flying in India next year!  (I am already in 2013 BTW)

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## RPK



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## Trichy

RPK said:


>



look @ the composite level in this..!i think of almost 65-75% composite in Su-T50


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## DANGER-ZONE

Trichy said:


> look @ the composite level in this..!i think of almost 65-75% composite in Su-T50



WOOOW ... You've got some sort of special vision mate .
how do you actually see these things, like super man ?

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## Trichy

danger-zone said:


> WOOOW ... You've got some sort of special vision mate .
> how do you actually see these things, like super man ?



Part - 1 : Su-27 The best fighter in the world (Part 1/4) - YouTube
Part - 2 : Su-27 The best fighter in the world (Part 2/4) - YouTube
Part - 3 : Su-27 The best fighter in the world (Part 3/4) - YouTube
Part - 4 : Su-27 The best fighter in the world (Part 4/4) - YouTube

 Watch all parts of this and tell, its not a special vision or to be a super man to know this fact's... the grey parts are composites in all models of Sukhoi's. watch it full then comment on it...

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## jnreno75




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## sudhir007

Russian T-50 made its first long flight &#8211; Rogozin | idrw.org

fifth-generation fighter T-50 made ??its first independent long flight, take to the air in the Far East and landed in Zhukovsky near Moscow said on Thursday, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

&#8220;Promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) T-50 after the first solo flight from the Far East landed in Zhukovsky,&#8221; &#8211; he wrote in his microblog on twitter.

Deputy Prime Minister noted that the aircraft is equipped with almost the full avionics and surveillance and attack systems.

&#8220;This is a major breakthrough! Machine broke 7000 miles, making the road to the capital of two landing in Abakan and Chelyabinsk. Congratulations team of developers and testers&#8221; &#8211; said Rogozin.

PAK FA &#8211; fifth generation aircraft equipped with a fundamentally new avionics, the &#8220;electronic pilot&#8221; and promising radar with a phased antenna array. The first flight took place on January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, the first public demonstration of the fighter &#8211; August 17, 2011 in Zhukovsky near Moscow at the International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS-2011.

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## Frank Martin

Hell Boy

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## kurup

Frank Martin said:


> Hell Boy



Superb ...........


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## sancho



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## IND151

Livefist: HAL To Unveil 'Indian' FGFA Model At Aero India


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## kurup



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## kurup



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## trident2010

When will T-50 start to conduct the weapons test? It should be soon now.


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## S-DUCT

Hey Guys,any new news about 5th gen powerplant & flat belly for pak-fa?


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## Kompromat

That is one heck of a built quality for a 5th generation air craft.
 @Oscar @gambit @sancho @orangzaib


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## Agnostic_Indian

Aeronaut said:


> That is one heck of a built quality for a 5th generation air craft.
> 
> @Oscar @gambit @sancho @orangzaib



prototype..not production version.


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## gambit

Aeronaut said:


> That is one heck of a built quality for a 5th generation air craft.
> 
> @Oscar @gambit @sancho @orangzaib


Naaahhh...In my opinion: Not a concern at this stage of development.

On the other hand, that is a lot of fasteners used on a per panel basis. While power tools are not forbidden in maintenance, it is not usually used at the flightline level unless absolutely necessary, and access panel removal is not under that 'absolutely necessary' consideration. Speedhandles are the normally used tools to remove fasteners.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Ground crews require *Repair Verification Radar (RVR) test sets* in order to verify the RCS of the aircraft after performing repairs, which was not a concern for previous generations of non-stealth fighters.


For a low radar observable body, a power tool to remove panels is dangerous because of the risk of uncontrolled movements that may gouge surfaces, perhaps even deep enough to remove the aircraft out of 'fully mission capable' (FMC) status.

Extraordinary care in surface integrity is the main reason for the higher maintenance statistics for the B-2 and F-22. Quite often, it is faster to change out a 'line replaceable unit' (LRU) than it is to remove/re-install a panel.

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## Kompromat

Agnostic_Indian said:


> prototype..not production version.



T-50





YF-22





YF-23





X-35





J2001





J3001






Just compare with its peers, Russians are known for their crude/substandard built quality/finish.
@gambit Does it mean, that the T-50 prototype isn't yet being tested for stealth performance?

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## Agnostic_Indian

Aeronaut said:


> T-50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YF-22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YF-23
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> X-35
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J2001
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J3001
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just compare with its peers, Russians are known for their crude/substandard built quality/finish.



Good effort.others look smooth,.may be it's not important at all at this stage, currently it's just flight stability tests and electronics, avionics checks..when the time comes for a RCS test they will fix it.


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## Kompromat

Agnostic_Indian said:


> Good effort.others look smooth,.may be it's not important at all at this stage, currently it's just flight stability tests and electronics, avionics checks..when the time comes for a RCS test they will fix it.



That is what i thought. As much as i adore, the flankers i do however maintain that if they were to be built by the Americans they would look much more amazing.


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## gambit

Aeronaut said:


> @gambit Does it mean, that the T-50 prototype isn't yet being tested for stealth performance?


We can safely assume RCS measurements on the overall shape are done. What remains are just refinement of that shape, like sanding a piece of wood after you have cut it to desired length.

Here is the reason why am curious about the quantity of fasteners on the per panel basis...






The foundation of shaping is the minimalization of radiation generators on a *FINITE BODY*, of which the major ones are flight control surfaces, vents, the cockpit, and so on. The flying wing design does not have radiators like assorted fixed fins or the vertical stabilators. So on a finite body where traveling surface waves have to get off eventually, why would you want to give them panel gaps or surface deflection points like fasteners on their travels?






Concave radiators are the next worst because that structure essentially acts as a focus/amplifier.

For all we know, those many fasteners do not rise the overall shape over a threshold. Or they may have but the Russians have no remedy for that issue. But you have to look at the US versions and wonder...

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## zzzz

Aeronaut said:


> That is one heck of a built quality for a 5th generation air craft.
> 
> @Oscar @gambit @sancho @orangzaib

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## Kompromat

@zzzz How can you compare a plane on assembly line with the one on runway?


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## zzzz

Aeronaut said:


> @zzzz How can you compare a plane on assembly line with the one on runway?



lol

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## Kompromat

zzzz said:


> lol



Fixers are not visible on the final finish 
@gambit


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## gambit

zzzz said:


> lol


The PAK is not the same shape as the F-35. You can take two panels of the same surface area but of different shape, bends, curvatures, and surface texture, and if you put both under the same conditions of radar bombardment you will have completely different RCS values and they will not be the same.

Also note the maintainer is wearing 'booties' over his combat boots. Those booties are not allowed to touch any other surface except the aircraft itself.

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## Capt.Popeye

Aeronaut said:


> Fixers are not visible on the final finish
> @gambit



The word is fasteners, not fixers.
And finally there is nothing that a good coat of paint/ coating cannot do.
Like make-up and lip-stick on a woman!

BTW the FGFA *prototype* was unpainted (in the pic that you were commenting about) like some of the F-35 pictures.


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## Viper0011.

Aeronaut said:


> That is one heck of a built quality for a 5th generation air craft.
> 
> @Oscar @gambit @sancho @orangzaib



I hope they aren't using the wrong tool set to open up the panels. That'll definitely hinder the RCS. This is probably a trial plane. Lack of Quality Assurance is usually seen in Russian and Chinese weapon systems. The US manufacturers wouldn't have brought the plane in this shape for flight tests. They would do further work to avoid any risk during flight. I can see some aluminum and silicon conductor and composite panels that aren't done correctly or can produce drag, etc during flight. I am sure that will change when they finalize the jet but it'll be considered a flight risk had this been in the US.

Plus, this is a modified-angular version of the Flanker family airframe. This will produce a low RCS jet not a 'new' 'all aspect' wholly entirely 'stealthy' plane like the F-22. It's visible from the design, geometry and a million pictures and drawings that I've seen and reviewed on different places. Not trying to discredit this, it will be leaps ahead of the current jets due to the RCS control and advanced EM and Super Cruise, etc. But, this isn't a direct competition to the F-22 or the F-35. I will credit this airframe for extreme speed, agility and maneuvers.

I think I will go as far as to say that the Chinese J-20 and J-31 may be a closer competitor to the Raptor and the F-35 compared to the TU models. The Chinese have stolen some US technology and they've known to work on advanced surfaces, stealth designs and miniaturized supercomputers for jets and high profile EM-Avionics suite.

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> I hope they aren't using the wrong tool set to open up the panels. That'll definitely hinder the RCS. This is probably a trial plane. Lack of Quality Assurance is usually seen in Russian and Chinese weapon systems. The US manufacturers wouldn't have brought the plane in this shape for flight tests. They would do further work to avoid any risk during flight. I can see some aluminum and silicon conductor and composite panels that aren't done correctly or can produce drag, etc during flight. I am sure that will change when they finalize the jet but it'll be considered a flight risk had this been in the US.
> 
> Plus, this is a modified-angular version of the Flanker family airframe. This will produce a low RCS jet not a 'new' 'all aspect' wholly entirely 'stealthy' plane like the F-22. It's visible from the design, geometry and a million pictures and drawings that I've seen and reviewed on different places. Not trying to discredit this, it will be leaps ahead of the current jets due to the RCS control and advanced EM and Super Cruise, etc. But, this isn't a direct competition to the F-22 or the F-35. I will credit this airframe for extreme speed, agility and maneuvers.



Please elaborate the erroneous "composite panels and aluminium panels" that you have visually inspected. Please do comment on the faults in the composite panels, I would love to hear more on this.

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Please elaborate the erroneous "composite panels and aluminium panels" that you have visually inspected. Please do comment on the faults in the composite panels, I would love to hear more on this.



You have a pair of eyes I am assuming. If you take a look at the airframe (close up) and if you have a software that can let you zoom 40X into pixels, you'll see it. It looks low quality. I never said it is 'erroneous'. Just to state the facts straight. I also said that they'll work on it MORE as they move forward but this is just a trial plane. However, in the US, LM or Boeing or anyone else, wouldn't let this plane fly as it's a flight risk. You can go left, right or side ways. The fact is the fact. The Russians and the Chinese quality assurance isn't up to par with the West / the US specifically. THAT's what I see here.
Russians have produced some of the few amazing airframes. SU 27-30-35 are great airframes so I'll give credit to where it's due. You are taking it personal as most Indian member do here. But that's ok. I can't change the facts because you guys get emotional like 18 year old chicks!


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> You have a pair of eyes I am assuming. If you take a look at the airframe (close up) and if you have a software that can let you zoom 40X into pixels, you'll see it. It looks low quality. I never said it is 'erroneous'. Just to state the facts straight. I also said that they'll work on it MORE as they move forward but this is just a trial plane. However, in the US, LM or Boeing or anyone else, wouldn't let this plane fly as it's a flight risk. You can go left, right or side ways. The fact is the fact. The Russians and the Chinese quality assurance isn't up to par with the West / the US specifically. THAT's what I see here.
> Russians have produced some of the few amazing airframes. SU 27-30-35 are great airframes so I'll give credit to where it's due. You are taking it personal as most Indian member do here. But that's ok. I can't change the facts because you guys get emotional like 18 year old chicks!



My assumption is Poor quality in composite panels as you have described refers to air gaps in facesheet, incomplete resin infusion, over curing in autoclave, excess resin deposition, facesheet separation, face sheet wrinkles, biax layer cracks. 

Now I am unable to see any of them and I wouldnt claim any unless I can do a rudementary tap test, or atleast a TG analysis for DMA, but then again, you employ thousands like me and know more... 

As far as the riveting is concerned I hope you do realize that these are flush fit blind friction-lock rivet, and will be coated with a high temp resin and Radar absorbent material, which will provide the surface finish as good as "your best guess".

I am guessing you haven't seen a flanker or a fulcrum up close, so please spare me your bs about knowing about these platforms. As far as maturity is concerned, we are not claiming hokum by looking at a pic, are we??

As far as flight risk is concerned ... please do enlighten me more about the TRV parameters of LM.. and please do explain how this platform in your opinion is a flight risk??

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## Black Widow

orangzaib said:


> I hope they aren't using the wrong tool set to open up the panels. That'll definitely hinder the RCS. This is probably a trial plane. Lack of Quality Assurance is usually seen in Russian and Chinese weapon systems. The US manufacturers wouldn't have brought the plane in this shape for flight tests. They would do further work to avoid any risk during flight. I can see some aluminum and silicon conductor and composite panels that aren't done correctly or can produce drag, etc during flight. I am sure that will change when they finalize the jet but it'll be considered a flight risk had this been in the US.
> 
> Plus, this is a modified-angular version of the Flanker family airframe. This will produce a low RCS jet not a 'new' 'all aspect' wholly entirely 'stealthy' plane like the F-22. It's visible from the design, geometry and a million pictures and drawings that I've seen and reviewed on different places. Not trying to discredit this, it will be leaps ahead of the current jets due to the RCS control and advanced EM and Super Cruise, etc. But, this isn't a direct competition to the F-22 or the F-35. I will credit this airframe for extreme speed, agility and maneuvers.
> 
> I think I will go as far as to say that the Chinese J-20 and J-31 may be a closer competitor to the Raptor and the F-35 compared to the TU models. The Chinese have stolen some US technology and they've known to work on advanced surfaces, stealth designs and miniaturized supercomputers for jets and high profile EM-Avionics suite.





Why comparing T50 with F22? And moreover its prototype, prototypes fly without paint to detect any structural defects. Hope being a old member you must know it. I think the stealth aspect of this plane is not tested yet.

Its not Flanker, Its entirely new plane . Your argument that F22 is entirely stealthy is flawed (Gambit can better educate you). and please stop being expert, by just visually inspection you can't give the verdict. 
@Chinese planes: No comment....

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## Viper0011.

Black Widow said:


> Why comparing T50 with F22? And moreover its prototype, prototypes fly without paint to detect any structural defects. Hope being a old member you must know it. I think the stealth aspect of this plane is not tested yet.
> 
> Its not Flanker, Its entirely new plane . Your argument that F22 is entirely stealthy is flawed (Gambit can better educate you). and please stop being expert, by just visually inspection you can't give the verdict.
> @Chinese planes: No comment....



I wasn't even daring to compare it to the F-22. But a few of your countrymen on other topics have been claiming as such. So I clarified. I know F-22 isn't a truly invisible plane. In the world of high power electronic active and passive radars, IR devices that now see for over 30 miles in 4th gen planes, DAS systems that can track an image from 800 miles away on-board an F-35, etc, etc....there is no such thing as a stealth plane unless you get into unmanned platforms. So I know how 'un-stealthy' F-22 is. BUT, believe me, it is a LOT more stealthier than anything else out there and for the purpose it was designed for. 

And Gambit is a great resource with a lot more years under his belt as an expert that me....I think he'd agree with what I've posted above.

Last, yes, Chinese stealths....no one is giving out a verdict based on 'visual effects'. Indian and Chinese guys get into this weird national phobia that I don't understand. But, their jets are being built on stolen US technology. Had they been using either their own sub-par technology or Russian technology, I wouldn't have made that statement. So its capability and technology that I am referring to. Remember, Russia still runs its technology platforms on Unix - Mainframe based systems. That's why they lagged behind the American military industrial complex as it was hard to commercialize the technology through mainframes. But the US focused on semi conductor and micro processors, resulting in creating hundreds of R&D companies that come up with new innovations every year. The Chinese are doing JUST that. So hope this helps.


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## Sergi

orangzaib said:


> I wasn't even daring to compare it to the F-22. But a few of your countrymen on other topics have been claiming as such. So I clarified. I know F-22 isn't a truly invisible plane. In the world of high power electronic active and passive radars, IR devices that now see for over 30 miles in 4th gen planes, DAS systems that can track an image from 800 miles away on-board an F-35, etc, etc....there is no such thing as a stealth plane unless you get into unmanned platforms. So I know how 'un-stealthy' F-22 is. BUT, believe me, it is a LOT more stealthier than anything else out there and for the purpose it was designed for.
> 
> And Gambit is a great resource with a lot more years under his belt as an expert that me....I think he'd agree with what I've posted above.
> 
> Last, yes, Chinese stealths....no one is giving out a verdict based on 'visual effects'. Indian and Chinese guys get into this weird national phobia that I don't understand. But, their jets are being built on stolen US technology. Had they been using either their own sub-par technology or Russian technology, I wouldn't have made that statement. So its capability and technology that I am referring to. Remember, Russia still runs its technology platforms on Unix - Mainframe based systems. That's why they lagged behind the American military industrial complex as it was hard to commercialize the technology through mainframes. But the US focused on semi conductor and micro processors, resulting in creating hundreds of R&D companies that come up with new innovations every year. The Chinese are doing JUST that. So hope this helps.



In short, it's Amerian ; only way and technology to do these things. Nothing come close to it ???
( simple question no other intentions )


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## kingdurgaking

orangzaib said:


> Last, yes, Chinese stealths....no one is giving out a verdict based on 'visual effects'. Indian and Chinese guys get into this weird national phobia that I don't understand. But, their jets are being built on stolen US technology. Had they been using either their own sub-par technology or Russian technology, I wouldn't have made that statement. So its capability and technology that I am referring to. Remember, Russia still runs its technology platforms on Unix - Mainframe based systems. That's why they lagged behind the American military industrial complex as it was hard to commercialize the technology through mainframes. But the US focused on semi conductor and micro processors, resulting in creating hundreds of R&D companies that come up with new innovations every year. The Chinese are doing JUST that. So hope this helps.



Your inner meaning??? you ought to say every country should do and follow what america is doing??


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## Viper0011.

kingdurgaking said:


> Your inner meaning??? you ought to say every country should do and follow what america is doing??



Bro, we lead the world since WWII till now and into the next many decades. So, yes, I was trying imply that the Chinese have learned from the best. So has the India. Without the US's jobs, economic and financial investments.....you think the India of 90's would be able to afford programs like ABM, Stealth, etc??? I know the internal house hold discussions that used to happen in India around 90's and before....people were scared as to what will happen in the next decades to come, extreme poverty was there, no real meaningful future....and then, BAM, the technology curve hit the world. The US made partners with India to utilize the cheap labor (and in that process, outsources 13 million jobs to India which didn't need to be outsources and people in the US defaulted on their home mortgages being jobless). So yes....any country who learns from a better one and puts in controls towards the future sees gains. You think the Chinese would be where they are today had they been following their 80's and 90's policies??

This is an off topic discussion. Open up a new thread and I'd LOVE to walk you through the globalization, business and military strategies, future markets, growth, etc. I specialize in this sh1t!!!


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> ...............................................................
> 
> no one is giving out a verdict based on 'visual effects'. Indian and Chinese guys get into this weird national phobia that I don't understand.



Apparently somebody claimed, about poor quality in AL, composites from a picture. Also made some preposterous claims of this being a flight risk and hinting familiarity with flight test process at LM/Boeing... I just want to get to know how to evaluate quality from a picture....

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## Capt.Popeye

sandy_3126 said:


> Apparently somebody claimed, about poor quality in AL, composites from a picture. Also made some preposterous claims of this being a flight risk and hinting familiarity with flight test process at LM/Boeing... I just want to get to know how to evaluate quality from a picture....



All that is required is the ability to talk glibly. Ever dealt with a salesman on a used-car lot? 
That kind can out-talk any aerospace engineer, rocket scientist, economist, global scientist, anyone.

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## Srinivas

@orangzaib the surface looks rugged because that is not the final coating, once the coating is done the stealth jet will be fine.

Regarding the comment about Chinese stealth jets, China is at a disadvantage since they copied the US tech of F35 and the same tech is used by EU in F35(shape of the nose and wings etc). The signature of the J31 is already known to EU and US.


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## kingdurgaking

orangzaib said:


> Bro, we lead the world since WWII till now and into the next many decades. So, yes, I was trying imply that the Chinese have learned from the best. So has the India. Without the US's jobs, economic and financial investments.....you think the India of 90's would be able to afford programs like ABM, Stealth, etc??? I know the internal house hold discussions that used to happen in India around 90's and before....people were scared as to what will happen in the next decades to come, extreme poverty was there, no real meaningful future....and then, BAM, the technology curve hit the world. The US made partners with India to utilize the cheap labor (and in that process, outsources 13 million jobs to India which didn't need to be outsources and people in the US defaulted on their home mortgages being jobless). So yes....any country who learns from a better one and puts in controls towards the future sees gains. You think the Chinese would be where they are today had they been following their 80's and 90's policies??
> 
> This is an off topic discussion. Open up a new thread and I'd LOVE to walk you through the globalization, business and military strategies, future markets, growth, etc. I specialize in this sh1t!!!



You have to be open and need lot of deep thinking if you think you really mean what you say... Secondly you need to define what you mean lead the world?? leading the world in common context is totally different.. US' jobs , economics etc are not coming to india like donating something to beggar .. The things go to India or some other country is because of different reason ... 

If you look into the economic model of india it is totaly different , I dont want to talk more about it...

The thing you need to understand is no one will follow no one or do what other says unless they are slaves... Every one like to add there own flavor in the pizza . No one is born for that .. Every country is unique ... If china follows the path of US .. it is its own choice.. it will get its own profit and loss.. if others dont they will have there own profit and loss.. so US should let other have there own individuality ... 

US is not doing any favour or help to any one.. It has its own interest... Simple promote its own company and kill the other good brands which where good in the region... (e.g.) see how coca-cola killed many companies which where better than coca-cola..

I can tell many things.... There is no concept called follow.. If you follow you are doomed... Develop your own creativity.... 

So what Russia is doing is correct.. Even if they dont match US quality it is fine... Until it solves there maths..


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## Viper0011.

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> @orangzaib the surface looks rugged because that is not the final coating, once the coating is done the stealth jet will be fine.
> 
> Regarding the comment about Chinese stealth jets, China is at a disadvantage since they copied the US tech of F35 and the same tech is used by EU in F35(shape of the nose and wings etc). The signature of the J31 is already known to EU and US.



I already said in the same post (that seems to be causing heartburn) that this plane was a trial plane and the actual end product will look much better. So you and I are both correct 

As far as the Chinese.....RCS doesn't mean anything. RCS known or unknown means nothing. It is the plane's capability that matters. The RCS of F-22 is like a Dime. You think if the Chinese knew that, they'll be programming their radars to look for a Dime type of an RCS??? That'll include hundreds of objects, ground clutter, etc, etc......and they'll never be able to really find out where the Raptor is. The location can be guessed and approximated unless it's very close and can be tracked or visually seen. THAT's the purpose. You know it's there, you can see some signs of it but when you can truly track it....your defensive force would already be on the run or confused and scattered!!


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## MilSpec

Capt.Popeye said:


> All that is required is the ability to talk glibly. Ever dealt with a salesman on a used-car lot?
> That kind can out-talk any aerospace engineer, rocket scientist, economist, global scientist, anyone.


 @orangzaib claimed that by looking at or magnifying the picture.. poor quality of composites is visible.... Testing of composite structures is my bread and butter..... Then the next claim was such prototype wont be allowed to fly as it poses a flight risk.... I have considerable experience aerospace and structural design and our mentor in the structural design and validation is a veteran from LM skunk works... I have little bit of idea of how TRV works in SW/LM, inspired from the same; even our dept at my current company is termed TRV (testing research and validation). 

When I did pose a query on "low quality", the genius seems to be implying we have some kind of heartburn for ridiculous observations of his which are not based on any facts or informed opinions. So when it comes to quasi hack professionals, all they can do is express their frustrations and eventually claim how they are superior to us poor Indians.

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> @orangzaib claimed that by looking at or magnifying the picture.. poor quality of composites is visible.... Testing of composite structures is my bread and butter..... Then the next claim was such prototype wont be allowed to fly as it poses a flight risk.... I have considerable experience aerospace and structural design and our mentor in the structural design and validation is a veteran from LM skunk works... I have little bit of idea of how TRV works in SW/LM, inspired from the same; even our dept at my current company is termed TRV (testing research and validation).
> 
> When I did pose a query on "low quality", the genius seems to be implying we have some kind of heartburn for ridiculous observations of his which are not based on any facts or informed opinions. So when it comes to quasi hack professionals, all they can do is express their frustrations and eventually claim how they are superior to us poor Indians.



I am sorry, I honestly didn't understand a thing you said......was there a point you were making or were you asking or telling me something?
The POOR India deal has nothing to do with this topic. Please don't cry foul. The issue with you guys on ANY topic is that you guys are blind patriots. Nothing India does, makes or buys is EVER inferior to anything or Good lord can EVER have an issue or anything. I have witnessed others frustration with you guys as well. I am not the only one. We are here to discuss the facts. Not play personal. ANYONE who's worked in the US military or related manufacturers in any shape will tell you that the American products have STRICT quality controls and security procedures. If a plane has open surfaces or patch work where it can generate Drag or 'Excessive Heat' during flight due to metallic patches not being covered or sensors not integrated properly or surfaces empty.....they won't fly those. PERIOD. 
If you want to continue on with this, I won't respond anymore as this has become counter productive at this point.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> I am sorry, I honestly didn't understand a thing you said......was there a point you were making or were you asking or telling me something?
> The POOR India deal has nothing to do with this topic. Please don't cry foul. The issue with you guys on ANY topic is that you guys are blind patriots. Nothing India does, makes or buys is EVER inferior to anything or Good lord can EVER have an issue or anything. I have witnessed others frustration with you guys as well. I am not the only one. We are here to discuss the facts. Not play personal. ANYONE who's worked in the US military or related manufacturers in any shape will tell you that the American products have STRICT quality controls and security procedures. If a plane has open surfaces or patch work where it can generate Drag or 'Excessive Heat' during flight due to metallic patches not being covered or sensors not integrated properly or surfaces empty.....they won't fly those. PERIOD.
> If you want to continue on with this, I won't respond anymore as this has become counter productive at this point.



I did ask you a simple question on poor quality of composites you found by visual inspection... please do elaborate!!!


Sensors are not deployed in every metallic/ composite surface, btw... Please go and find out the prototypes that were tested in boeing for their parametric validation... These prototypes are being tested by RAC not by RuAF... So please dont compare them to trials of prototypes done by USAF....

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## Capt.Popeye

@sandy_3126,
Visual inspection is the most inexact method of gauging material strength. Close to 2 decades of work in and around Ship-Yards tells me that at least. If visual inspection was sufficient then all the DT and NDT agencies that I employed would have had to go out of business. Checking a weld for instance by a well-trained technician using VI only gives an idea of its probable strength or weakness. But that can be confirmed only by DP or Radiological tests. 

I noticed some discussion about joints, fasteners etc but only Gambit's inputs seemed to be experential. About composites, I do not have deal much with them, since they are used very sparingly in a Marine Environment and mostly for non-critical applications. But I did get some walk-throughs in a DRDO lab where such work is carried out; only because I knew the Director and I was then handling an issue of structural failures in a Chinese life-boat brand during load-tests.

Of course our Structural Inspector friend here wears other hats too. He can and will talk about global economics, strategisation, marketing, the works. So its par for the course.

I get the impression (following your posts) that you have more than a nodding acquiantance with Aerospace. But you will have to discuss that subject here with just about anyone from anywhere. Including Used-Car salesmen.

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## gambit

Sergi said:


> In short, it's Amerian ; only way and technology to do these things. Nothing come close to it ???
> ( simple question no other intentions )


Not the only way. But the *YET* best way. No one here can dispute the fact that I am proud of what US aviation have done in this area, but am not asserting that 'yet best' out of some easily conjured up sense of nationalism and chauvinism.

When you have an unchallenged leader in a field, and neither the Russians nor the Chinese are credible challengers despite what the Australians may say, if you want at least similar results if not identical, you acquire (learn) the necessary technology and materials, emulate the methodology of manufacture, and follow the exact testing regimes. Testing was where I spent the bulk of my civilian aviation life and the more exact, meaning controlled, the testing regimes, the more fine grain the data and that is invaluable to upstream engineers, designers, and manufacturing managers. That was how the Japanese and South Koreans did it and now their automobiles are as common in the US as American icons Ford and Chevrolet.

The Soviets rejected Ufimtsev's work and now they are paying the price by playing catch up to US. The Chinese did exactly what I outlined and given their determination, as far as I am concerned, China is a technological peer to Russia in 'stealth'. May be give a few months short ? Were we somewhat surprised at the Chinese? Yes. But the Russians were outright shocked senseless.

At best, if one is willing to designate anything as 'American' in this enterprise, it is in the testing regimes. That does not mean we are 'perfect' because we made plenty of mistakes, but because we are the leader in this 'stealth' thingy that it is inevitable that we will make more mistakes than the usual acceptable amount compared to established fields.

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> I did ask you a simple question on poor quality of composites you found by visual inspection... please do elaborate!!!
> 
> 
> Sensors are not deployed in every metallic/ composite surface, btw... Please go and find out the prototypes that were tested in boeing for their parametric validation... These prototypes are being tested by RAC not by RuAF... So please dont compare them to trials of prototypes done by USAF....



?????? What is up with you guys and your fake / weird national pride......no one compared your mighty TU-50 to USAF. All I said was that the process works different in the US due to strict QC. A plane in that shape won't be allowed to fly. Those are the strict QC standards for the safety of the pilot, the plane's and anyone else's who the plane might crash into otherwise. Read above this message. Gambit is saying pretty much the same thing for on a different topic. 

The US Quality Control / Process Testing is superb in all aspects. Specifically on the military hardware and software. No one has come close to it or will come closer to it for a long while. Russians are STILL playing catch up due to making their platform mainframe based and putting their testing in larger hard to test procedures and outcomes varies due to the lack of standardization processes.


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## Viper0011.

Capt.Popeye said:


> @sandy_3126,
> Visual inspection is the most inexact method of gauging material strength. Close to 2 decades of work in and around Ship-Yards tells me that at least. If visual inspection was sufficient then all the DT and NDT agencies that I employed would have had to go out of business. Checking a weld for instance by a well-trained technician using VI only gives an idea of its probable strength or weakness. But that can be confirmed only by DP or Radiological tests.
> Of course our Structural Inspector friend here wears other hats too. He can and will talk about global economics, strategisation, marketing, the works. So its par for the course.
> 
> I get the impression (following your posts) that you have more than a nodding acquiantance with Aerospace. But you will have to discuss that subject here with just about anyone from anywhere. Including Used-Car salesmen.



Apparently I made a mistake by calling out the obvious as it was an INDIAN product. So of course, it had to be nothing but perfect. And now the whole India hates me. My man, once, I had the privilege to work with a structural engineer when I was in college. He looked at a structure from about 100 yards away and 50 feet below it. Looked again, then put his glasses on and told me, there are two 'hairline cracks' at 11'o clock. This structure will fail the inspection and and it should be deemed grounded. 
I was looking and looking and looking....no where could I see the 'hairline crack' that he could see. And he had glasses and was about 40 years older than me, had served in Vietnam, etc. Anyway, I begged to differ as I couldn't see what he saw. I had to go up the ladder and go pretty much next to the structure to see it. And I had 20-20 vision. We left. Two days later....it was moved to structural integrity testing and then....bam, the repairs were requested....... tells me about visual inspection!!!
And yes, I can have a discussion with a used car salesman just as well as with the executives from companies like Shell and GE, etc and just as well with a doctor, the store manager and with a Scientist working with Genetics!!! 
In my prior life, I've done many thing. This is the beauty of America. We don't always follow one line to be a doctor or engineer or a pilot. We start when we are 16 on our own and we end up with anything we wanted to achieve during our life's journey. Or some, just end up enjoying life. There are no weird socio-economic-cultural forces preventing us from doing what we want to do!!! That is why the US IS the land of opportunity and will always be the land of opportunity!!

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> ?????? What is up with you guys and your fake / weird national pride......no one compared your mighty TU-50 to USAF. All I said was that the process works different in the US due to strict QC. A plane in that shape won't be allowed to fly. Those are the strict QC standards for the safety of the pilot, the plane's and anyone else's who the plane might crash into otherwise. Read above this message. Gambit is saying pretty much the same thing for on a different topic.
> 
> The US Quality Control / Process Testing is superb in all aspects. Specifically on the military hardware and software. No one has come close to it or will come closer to it for a long while. Russians are STILL playing catch up due to making their platform mainframe based and putting their testing in larger hard to test procedures and outcomes varies due to the lack of standardization processes.






orangzaib said:


> *You have a pair of eyes I am assuming. If you take a look at the airframe (close up) and if you have a software that can let you zoom 40X into pixels, you'll see it. It looks low quality.*





sandy_3126 said:


> My assumption is Poor quality in composite panels as you have described refers to air gaps in facesheet, incomplete resin infusion, over curing in autoclave, excess resin deposition, facesheet separation, face sheet wrinkles, biax layer cracks.
> 
> Now I am unable to see any of them and I wouldnt claim any unless I can do a rudementary tap test, or atleast a TG analysis for DMA, but then again, you employ thousands like me and know more...
> 
> please do enlighten me more about the TRV parameters of LM.. and please do explain how this platform in your opinion is a flight risk??




>Please explain your observations of "low quality in composites from visual inspection"

>What aspect of especially composite looks low quality to you

> What flaws have you been able to recognize in the "composites" from the image

> Explain how is the protototype a flight risk, what aspects pose flight risk, what are trv parameters for flight testing of LM/Boeing



orangzaib said:


> Apparently I made a mistake by calling out the obvious as it was an INDIAN product. So of course, it had to be nothing but perfect. And now the whole India hates me. My man, once, I had the privilege to work with a structural engineer when I was in college. He looked at a structure from about 100 yards away and 50 feet below it. Looked again, then put his glasses on and told me, there are two 'hairline cracks' at 11'o clock. This structure will fail the inspection and and it should be deemed grounded.
> I was looking and looking and looking....no where could I see the 'hairline crack' that he could see. And he had glasses and was about 40 years older than me, had served in Vietnam, etc. Anyway, I begged to differ as I couldn't see what he saw. I had to go up the ladder and go pretty much next to the structure to see it. And I had 20-20 vision. We left. Two days later....it was moved to structural integrity testing and then....bam, the repairs were requested....... tells me about visual inspection!!!
> And yes, I can have a discussion with a used car salesman just as well as with the executives from companies like Shell and GE, etc and just as well with a doctor, the store manager and with a Scientist working with Genetics!!!
> In my prior life, I've done many thing. This is the beauty of America. We don't always follow one line to be a doctor or engineer or a pilot. We start when we are 16 on our own and we end up with anything we wanted to achieve during our life's journey. Or some, just end up enjoying life. There are no weird socio-economic-cultural forces preventing us from doing what we want to do!!! That is why the US IS the land of opportunity and will always be the land of opportunity!!



Nonsense and your poor vision apart.... tell me how do claim poor quality of composites from an image? Please dont lecture about what opportunities lie in america...

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> >Please explain your observations of "low quality in composites from visual inspection"
> 
> >What aspect of especially composite looks low quality to you
> 
> > What flaws have you been able to recognize in the "composites" from the image
> 
> > Explain how is the protototype a flight risk, what aspects pose flight risk, what are trv parameters for flight testing of LM/Boeing
> 
> Nonsense and your poor vision apart.... tell me how do claim poor quality of composites from an image? Please dont lecture about what opportunities lie in america...



Here's the answer: Please go read ALL the previous posts you and your buddies had me answer to. It's ALL in there.
@mods : I think this thread needs to be closed. It's gotten off topic, causing waste of time, disk space, bandwidth and has upset my teenager high school Indian friends, who are very young and emotional. So my apologies. I will STILL comment on the facts though!!

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Here's the answer: Please go read ALL the previous posts you and your buddies had me answer to. It's ALL in there.
> @mods : I think this thread needs to be closed. It's gotten off topic, causing waste of time, disk space, bandwidth and has upset my teenager high school Indian friends, who are very young and emotional. So my apologies. I will STILL comment on the facts though!!



As I mentioned.......Please point one post at which you have answered any question wrt to "low quality composites"

And like because your crying mods will close a thread titled"Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions"...

The whole point of this conversation was to show you there is no way of identifying quality of composite structures from visual inspection... especially from the one in question... 

So next time think before you shoot your mouth!

As for as your teenager rants go, I think most of the members reading this knows who has a factual argument , and whose conjecture is hokum! So please spare yourself the embarassment of getting whipped around by the "alleged" teenager...

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## Roybot

Well done @sandy_3126.

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## Sergi

orangzaib said:


> Here's the answer: Please go read ALL the previous posts you and your buddies had me answer to. It's ALL in there.
> @mods : I think this thread needs to be closed. It's gotten off topic, causing waste of time, disk space, bandwidth and has upset my teenager high school Indian friends, who are very young and emotional. So my apologies. I will STILL comment on the facts though!!


*Did you have a weird fantasy of teenage high schoolers ??? You are writing it again and again ???*
And Oh dear...... Why are you getting emotional and calling others emotional ??? 
*Simple thing to do is skip the thread and go to your so called non-imptional and rational threads. But you won't guess why.* 


BTW trolling is one thing you are not at the par with us here  so don't try we are better in that


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## Viper0011.

Sergi said:


> BTW trolling is one thing you are not at the par with us here  so don't try we are better in that



Of course you are. I've said it before, it's amazing what 1 billion emotional people connected to the internet with blinded patriotism can do!!! Trolling i.e.


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## conworldus

orangzaib said:


> Of course you are. I've said it before, it's amazing what* 1 billion emotional people *connected to the internet with blinded patriotism can do!!! Trolling i.e.



100 million as of 2011.
AFP: India's online population 'tops 100 million'


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## Sergi

orangzaib said:


> Of course you are. I've said it before, it's amazing what 1 billion emotional people connected to the internet with blinded patriotism can do!!! Trolling i.e.



Ya correct 
But what about the Bolded part of my post that you choose to cut ??? 
Buddy you have weird affection to the word "emotional" and "teenage"  that can lead to another conclusion but let it be for now ......

If you have so much problems with all the mention things .... Why are you here ??? Means common you clearly not interested in anything here. So why not just skip the thread ??? 
I am sure there are some other threads that might interest you in other sections... Or some other webs with your interest  if know what I mean....

Let's drop it here before it get ugly. If you want to reply to the real questions kindly do it. But if you want to satisfy your earge to rant and critisize go somewhere else. in short help us by skipping this thread


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## Viper0011.

Sergi said:


> Ya correct
> But what about the Bolded part of my post that you choose to cut ???
> Buddy you have weird affection to the word "emotional" and "teenage"  that can lead to another conclusion but let it be for now ......
> 
> If you have so much problems with all the mention things .... Why are you here ??? Means common you clearly not interested in anything here. So why not just skip the thread ???
> Let's drop it here before it get ugly. If you want to reply to the real questions kindly do it. But if you want to satisfy your earge to rant and critisize go somewhere else. in short help us by skipping this thread



I've heard weird and creepy stories of your countrymen's affection to teen agers here in the US and in the UK. There were actually some news too not too long ago. So I'll let it pass. Second, I do have an issue with you. That is, you guys jump up in down when it comes to you. For example, the other day, I posted a link to where they talked about Hindu terrorism that has killed hundreds of thousands of people WITHIN India. But the terrorist belong to the elite ruling parties like BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena. So...you guys went Up and Down. You guys said EVERYTHING but take the blame and condemn terrorism in ALL shapes and forms. You guys scream out loud when someone does it to you but when it's a Hindu.....you guys do exactly what you are doing here. BUT condemning your countrymen for killing Christians and Muslims in cold blood, raping their women, etc. It's all on youtube and on other sites. 
So similarly, here, the FACT is ONE and ONE only. The crap Russia builds for you, is lower quality. PERIOD. If the Su-30 was SUCH a great plane....there wasn't any need for India to spend billions of dollars with France. Spare me the crap about relationships and how you have so much money (after our beloved politicians donated 13 million jobs to you guys, including the ones that would otherwise have gone to servicemen coming home, but that's a different topic). So....the Russian Sh1t and the Chinese stuff is inferior in quality. The WHOLE world knows it. If you want to argue about it like a child with your buddies who can't condemn Hindu terrorism but would troll their lives away.....keep going. Again, the quality is, was and always been inferior. There is no doubt about it. The Quality Controls are also much different. If you have a different opinion about it. Sure, you can have it and troll for next ten years. It doesn't change the facts!

Last, why do I have to leave? Why don't you guys learn how to be in a productive discussion instead of anti Chinese, Pakistani, and Bangladesh rants but when your own people do terrorism and have training camps in India....you turn your eyes and act like you don't know? Condemn it. Anyway. You can write further obsessed posts to this or the mods will clean it up. I don't care. Again, the Russian and Chinese equipment is always inferior from a quality and durability's standpoint. Whoever disagrees to it, is on stuff he shouldn't be smoking. Have fun trolling!


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## Yeti

Another thread ruined! @Oscar please clean this up we use this thread to post important info for PAK-FA

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## notsuperstitious

Madman on the loose. Please ignore his weird offtopic rants guys.

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## Roybot

orangzaib said:


> You have a pair of eyes I am assuming. If you take a look at the airframe (close up) and *if you have a software that can let you zoom 40X into pixels, you'll see it.* It looks low quality.!



May I know the name of this software that you are using? Thanks in advance.


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## Sergi

orangzaib said:


> I've heard weird and creepy stories of your countrymen's affection to teen agers here in the US and in the UK. There were actually some news too not too long ago. So I'll let it pass. Second, I do have an issue with you. That is, you guys jump up in down when it comes to you. For *example, the other day, I posted a link to where they talked about Hindu terrorism that has killed hundreds of thousands of people WITHIN India. But the terrorist belong to the elite ruling parties like BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena. So...you guys went Up and Down. You guys said EVERYTHING but take the blame and condemn terrorism in ALL shapes and forms. You guys scream out loud when someone does it to you but when it's a Hindu.....you guys do exactly what you are doing here. BUT condemning your countrymen for killing Christians and Muslims in cold blood, raping their women, etc. It's all on youtube and on other sites.
> So similarly, here, the FACT is ONE and ONE only. The crap Russia builds for you, is lower quality. PERIOD. If the Su-30 was SUCH a great plane....there wasn't any need for India to spend billions of dollars with France. Spare me the crap about relationships and how you have so much money (after our beloved politicians donated 13 million jobs to you guys, including the ones that would otherwise have gone to servicemen coming home, but that's a different topic).* So....the Russian Sh1t and the Chinese stuff is inferior in quality. The WHOLE world knows it. If you want to argue about it like a child with your buddies who can't condemn Hindu terrorism but would troll their lives away.....keep going. Again, the quality is, was and always been inferior. There is no doubt about it. The Quality Controls are also much different. If you have a different opinion about it. Sure, you can have it and troll for next ten years. It doesn't change the facts!
> 
> Last, why do I have to leave? Why don't you guys learn how to be in a productive discussion instead of anti Chinese, Pakistani, and Bangladesh rants but when your own people do terrorism and have training camps in India....you turn your eyes and act like you don't know? Condemn it. Anyway. You can write further obsessed posts to this or the mods will clean it up. I don't care. Again, the Russian and Chinese equipment is always inferior from a quality and durability's standpoint. Whoever disagrees to it, is on stuff he shouldn't be smoking. Have fun trolling!



So basically you want to tell me you got that affection form my country men ??? that's cool. You pick up something 

Wow somebody was telling Mods to close this thread because of some Offtopic posts. Did you know who that was ??? I need a quality analysis of e Bolded part from him  you really are hurt or pissed. Get well soon buddy 

The carp Russians build is for them and for India is good for us. Why are you obessed with that ??? Go ask your country men ( if you really are one with that Name ) why they always try to counter Russian planes when they are so inferior. 

And about terrorist, you might be a specialist in Muslim terrorism. I don't wana comment on that here. Link me the thread we see that there. By the way you seemed pissed with Hindus. Surely a hindu hating Muslim I guess . keep up the hate. That's you can do 

I didn't say you leave. I said if you have problem with something you should just not show any attention to it. But you are posting like its a issue of life and death for you  obsession is bad. 

Last thing; one of the greatest thinkers of the time said knowledge is waste without politeness. You happen to know the name pal  ???
And one more who said the one who underestimate his enemy is always greeted with surprises 


Anyways your are proving your "username" a good choice 
PS: I am from Maharashtra and we took good care of our "orangzaib". You are welcome to my state

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> I've heard weird and creepy stories of your countrymen's affection to teen agers here in the US and in the UK. There were actually some news too not too long ago. So I'll let it pass. Second, I do have an issue with you. That is, you guys jump up in down when it comes to you. For example, the other day, I posted a link to where they talked about Hindu terrorism that has killed hundreds of thousands of people WITHIN India. But the terrorist belong to the elite ruling parties like BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena. So...you guys went Up and Down. You guys said EVERYTHING but take the blame and condemn terrorism in ALL shapes and forms. You guys scream out loud when someone does it to you but when it's a Hindu.....you guys do exactly what you are doing here. BUT condemning your countrymen for killing Christians and Muslims in cold blood, raping their women, etc. It's all on youtube and on other sites.
> So similarly, here, the FACT is ONE and ONE only. The crap Russia builds for you, is lower quality. PERIOD. If the Su-30 was SUCH a great plane....there wasn't any need for India to spend billions of dollars with France. Spare me the crap about relationships and how you have so much money (after our beloved politicians donated 13 million jobs to you guys, including the ones that would otherwise have gone to servicemen coming home, but that's a different topic). So....the Russian Sh1t and the Chinese stuff is inferior in quality. The WHOLE world knows it. If you want to argue about it like a child with your buddies who can't condemn Hindu terrorism but would troll their lives away.....keep going. Again, the quality is, was and always been inferior. There is no doubt about it. The Quality Controls are also much different. If you have a different opinion about it. Sure, you can have it and troll for next ten years. It doesn't change the facts!
> 
> Last, why do I have to leave? Why don't you guys learn how to be in a productive discussion instead of anti Chinese, Pakistani, and Bangladesh rants but when your own people do terrorism and have training camps in India....you turn your eyes and act like you don't know? Condemn it. Anyway. You can write further obsessed posts to this or the mods will clean it up. I don't care. Again, the Russian and Chinese equipment is always inferior from a quality and durability's standpoint. Whoever disagrees to it, is on stuff he shouldn't be smoking. Have fun trolling!





^^^ On a Pakfa thread??  @Aeronaut saheb dekhiye zarra

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## Capt.Popeye

orangzaib said:


> Apparently I made a mistake by calling out the obvious as it was an INDIAN product. So of course, it had to be nothing but perfect. And now the whole India hates me. My man, once, I had the privilege to work with a structural engineer when I was in college. He looked at a structure from about 100 yards away and 50 feet below it. Looked again, then put his glasses on and told me, there are two 'hairline cracks' at 11'o clock. This structure will fail the inspection and and it should be deemed grounded.
> I was looking and looking and looking....no where could I see the 'hairline crack' that he could see. And he had glasses and was about 40 years older than me, had served in Vietnam, etc. Anyway, I begged to differ as I couldn't see what he saw. I had to go up the ladder and go pretty much next to the structure to see it. And I had 20-20 vision. We left. Two days later....it was moved to structural integrity testing and then....bam, the repairs were requested....... tells me about visual inspection!!!
> And yes, I can have a discussion with a used car salesman just as well as with the executives from companies like Shell and GE, etc and just as well with a doctor, the store manager and with a Scientist working with Genetics!!!
> In my prior life, I've done many thing. This is the beauty of America. We don't always follow one line to be a doctor or engineer or a pilot. We start when we are 16 on our own and we end up with anything we wanted to achieve during our life's journey. Or some, just end up enjoying life. There are no weird socio-economic-cultural forces preventing us from doing what we want to do!!! That is why the US IS the land of opportunity and will always be the land of opportunity!!



Thank you for that long story. North America is the land of opportunities. And a land of unparalleled success. There is no doubt about it. And it utilises the best talent from all over the world. Including from countries like Viet Nam and India. Which is why I earn my green-backs here. So that is not new to anybody. Anybody with some felicity with words can write about that.
Including used-car salesmen.

Now apart from that and other generalities what else is there to be said- that there are supermen in North America? 
Even that Structural Engineer that you mentioned has to fall back on Lab Tests to KNOW that something is wrong. There is a difference between ESTIMATION and VERIFICATION. All scientific processes have to be completed by VERIFICATION. 
Otherwise your Structural Engineer friend would have put all structural testing Labs out of business; which has not happened! And he would've been known as "god's gift to engineering"! 
That has not happened yet either, I'm sure.

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## arbit

Guys orangzaib has trolled you all! Its better not to reply and provoke him, else he will keep on unloading crap by the bucket.. and you will fall to his considerable charms.Lol
And by charms i mean verbal diarrhea. 
Peace.

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## Capt.Popeye

orangzaib said:


> I had the privilege to work with a structural engineer when I was in college. He looked at a structure from about 100 yards away and 50 feet below it. Looked again, then put his glasses on and told me, there are two 'hairline cracks' at 11'o clock. This structure will fail the inspection and and it should be deemed grounded.
> I was looking and looking and looking....no where could I see the 'hairline crack' that he could see. And he had glasses and was about 40 years older than me, had served in Vietnam, etc. Anyway, I begged to differ as I couldn't see what he saw. I had to go up the ladder and go pretty much next to the structure to see it. And I had 20-20 vision. We left. Two days later....it was moved to structural integrity testing and then....bam, the repairs were requested....... tells me about visual inspection!!!



No muy amigo; that says nothing at all about visual inspection! 
Your Structural Inspector on the basis of "good eye-sight and experience (probably)" ESTIMATED that there is a problem. When you climbed up that ladder and took a closer look, you confirmed his observation about "a hairline crack".

Then as you said:"Two days later....it was moved to structural integrity testing "
That is where the VERIFICATION of an observation took place.

Then as you again said:" the repairs were requested".
That is where the VERIFICATION led to RECTIFICATION.

*Did the Structural Engineer's initial observation (i.e. ESTIMATION) directly lead to the repairs (i.e. RECTIFICATION)* ??
So that speaks for the merits/limitations of *VISUAL INSPECTION*.
Those rules apply anywhere, whether in USA, Canada, Russia, China, India, Singapore, Egypt or anywhere else. 
Without Deviations.
VERIFICATION is the very basis of QAQC. Or any Scientific Method/Process.

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## DARKY

Number 52 showing its TVC controls.







52 is being used for testing the engine and maneuverability.... 51 and 53 for Radar and other electronics.

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## Viper0011.

Capt.Popeye said:


> Even that Structural Engineer that you mentioned has to fall back on Lab Tests to KNOW that something is wrong. There is a difference between ESTIMATION and VERIFICATION. All scientific processes have to be completed by VERIFICATION.
> Otherwise your Structural Engineer friend would have put all structural testing Labs out of business; which has not happened! And he would've been known as "god's gift to engineering"!
> That has not happened yet either, I'm sure.



So.....what exactly are you and your cousins who are just trying to troll life to silliness...trying to say exactly? I don't get it. With regards to my post where this saga stated from. My point, and I reiterate is that the Quality Control in the US made products for the military is much higher than other countries......SECOND: the US wouldn't allow planes to fly if there is ANY possibility (even remote possibility) or a flight risk or the surface getting heated up and causing any threats to the pilots life or a possibility of losing a plane, etc. Just take a look at the maintenance costs of jets like SU-30, Mig-29, etc vs. the F-16, F-18, etc. 

Instead of writing posts JUST to respond and troll.....try to provide me with proof as to why do you think what I said above is incorrect. Show me the Russian, Chinese and the US process engineering, QC protocols, etc that are either superior to the US or are below standards (what I am saying). There is really no third option. If you can show me the Russian and the Chinese have better process engineering, computing and military hardware. I'll respectfully apologies and move on. 
You can't just write essays as a community service and try to 'get even' for a different thread where you guys can't speak due to the lack of facts. I've written a lot of stuff about Hindu terrorism and the their training camps in India. In those threads, you guys don't speak because I am giving you facts and you don't like those. On this thread, you are jumping up and down as a community because you think this is a place to get even. Not stupid bro. Just answer my questions above with FACTS and one of us will back down!


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## sancho

gambit said:


> China is a technological peer to Russia in 'stealth'. May be give a few months short ? Were we somewhat surprised at the Chinese? Yes. But the Russians were outright shocked senseless.



More than debatable, especially when you see that nothing that China developed wrt RCS is really based on their developments, but on Russian and US designs.
The Russians on the other side, came up with something that nobody expected. A stealth fighter design, based on their experience with the lift body design (Flankers and Mig 29s), so a further evolution of their own capabilities!

The only reason that the Russians have to catch up is, that they lost the cold war in the economical and political sense. They couldn't keep up the spending like the US could, lost their partners in the Soviet Union and had to completely refine themselfs. That's what they do now with India help on the one side, but also by opening to western countries and their technical capabilities on the other side (Europe, Israel).
Their scientists on the other side wasn't worse or less capable than US once at all, neither are Europeans less capable than US counterparts (which Americans often falsely believe), but the simple fact that no other single country is speding so much on defence developments and arms gives you the lead so far.
However, that is where China comes in to play, because they are technologically far behind the US, western countries and even Russia so far, but are the only one that can compete with the US in spending. That's why they are catching up in all areas so fast, that's why they are the only threat to the US as a superpower and that's why not even the US can't handle them alone (new Asian area, new Asian partners, increased interest in India...).

Money rules the world and you will see US developments going slower in the coming years, since you are close to where the Soviet Union came during the cold war, while China is still on the fast track.

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> So.....what exactly are you and your cousins who are just trying to troll life to silliness...trying to say exactly? I don't get it. With regards to my post where this saga stated from. My point, and I reiterate is that the Quality Control in the US made products for the military is much higher than other countries......SECOND: the US wouldn't allow planes to fly if there is ANY possibility (even remote possibility) or a flight risk or the surface getting heated up and causing any threats to the pilots life or a possibility of losing a plane, etc. Just take a look at the maintenance costs of jets like SU-30, Mig-29, etc vs. the F-16, F-18, etc.
> 
> Instead of writing posts JUST to respond and troll.....try to provide me with proof as to why do you think what I said above is incorrect. Show me the Russian, Chinese and the US process engineering, QC protocols, etc that are either superior to the US or are below standards (what I am saying). There is really no third option. If you can show me the Russian and the Chinese have better process engineering, computing and military hardware. I'll respectfully apologies and move on.
> You can't just write essays as a community service and try to 'get even' for a different thread where you guys can't speak due to the lack of facts. I've written a lot of stuff about Hindu terrorism and the their training camps in India. In those threads, you guys don't speak because I am giving you facts and you don't like those. On this thread, you are jumping up and down as a community because you think this is a place to get even. Not stupid bro. Just answer my questions above with FACTS and one of us will back down!



Two of the positions you took in your earlier posts were pretty clear:

1. You claimed poor quality in composites and AL structures based on a picture

> When I asked you to tell me how did you determine "poor quality in composite panes"/ AL panels, you did not answer with any observations that show any quality related parameters of the structure. 

2.Next you claimed this structure to be a flight risk which would never be allowed to fly in Boeing or LM. 

> The above claim implies that you are aware of TRV process for either LM or Boeing, hence I asked you specifically about the regulation on flight testing of prototypes. My follow up question was how did you deem that these are flight risks. 
>>Your answer gave no specifics of TRV guidelines for LM/boeing, your blanket generalized statement was to harp on superior QA process employed by US. (which wasn't the point of contention), apart from that you claim that US firms would not fly an aircraft with "alleged metal patch work". 

To be factual :
>Identify the "alleged low quality" composites, Specifying the flaw that you have identified in composite panels and AL panels from the picture of the aircraft as you have claimed. And If you do identify any flaws especially in composites, please enlighten us on the process of this breakthrough technology that you have employed.

>Please specify the TRV flight parameters for manned flights employed by LM/Boeing that you are aware of

> Please identify how the prototype T50, is a flight risk, explain how" metal surfaces that fully exposed" can take upto mach 3 speeds have become flight risks. Also please help us understand how you have evaluated the thermal properties composites and alloys on the t50 from the image to deem it a flight risk.

Please be civil and specific, without mentioning shiv sena, rss, 18 yr old teenagers, kashmir, gujrat if you can...


Addendum 
Images of F 35 without complete surface treatment on test flight.





Images of f22 raptor without complete surface treatment on test flight in 2009.

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## gambit

sancho said:


> More than debatable, especially when you see that nothing that China developed wrt RCS is really based on their developments, but on Russian and US designs.


The Chinese does not care.

The Chinese members here will take great offense at the argument that the J-20 is based off the MIG 1.44, but that is the fact and truth. Yes, Chinese designers and engineers are well learned and trained enough, but so far, China have made no conceptual/theoretical and engineering breakthroughs in aviation in general, let alone military aviation. If you take a cube and smooth out the sharp corners and edges, you will get a lower RCS. But you will *STILL* have a cube as the foundation.






It is not like comparing the conceptual/theoretical and engineering differences between an F-15 and the B-2. For a flight controls engineer, he has the vertical stab to work with on %99.999 of aircraft designs. But the flying wing will throw him for a loop. How is he going keep the aircraft stable and make coordinated turns? He must still give the pilot rudder pedals. But where are the rudders to start? The pilot will know that he is flying an aircraft that have no yaw axis stabilization surface, but he still need a method to turn the aircraft. So does the flight control computer. Both do not care if there is a yaw axis stabilization device or not. They just want something there.

*THAT* is what I am talking about.

But ultimately, the Chinese designers and engineers do not care on how much behind they are compare to American aviation. The 1.44's design served them well as the foundation for an indigenous 'stealth' fighter and they succeeded. Just like the rounded cube, they smoothed out the 1.44's basic design and with their own sub-systems, they can rightly claim the J-20 to be indigenous and in many respects, they are correct.



sancho said:


> The Russians on the other side, came up with something that nobody expected. A stealth fighter design, based on their experience with the lift body design (Flankers and Mig 29s), so a further evolution of their own capabilities!


Those are evolutionary designs while the F-117 is a revolutionary design. But because the Russians did not have a -117 equivalent to study the 'before' and 'after' effects of one method of RCS control -- angled faceting, the PAK is really similar to the J-20 in that both are evolutionary from existing designs.



sancho said:


> The only reason that the Russians have to catch up is, that they lost the cold war in the economical and political sense. They couldn't keep up the spending like the US could, lost their partners in the Soviet Union and had to completely refine themselfs. That's what they do now with India help on the one side, but also by opening to western countries and their technical capabilities on the other side (Europe, Israel).
> Their scientists on the other side wasn't worse or less capable than US once at all, neither are Europeans less capable than US counterparts (which Americans often falsely believe), but the simple fact that no other single country is speding so much on defence developments and arms gives you the lead so far.


You are not saying anything new regarding money. Wealth allows leisure and eventually creativity and I am not going to feel ashamed at how much we spends on R/D, military or else. Scientists works the conceptual/theoretical but it is the engineers who must balance real world realities and limitations with concepts and theories that often posits the best scenarios, such as 'perfect electrical conductor' (PEC), which we know does not exist. Significant to the real world is financial constraints. If we have more money to pay more engineers and that gave US the lead, to the world I say: tough sh!t.

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## conworldus

Kindly enlighten me what similarities are there between the 1.44 and 20 except they are both twin engine planes and have canards.



gambit said:


> The Chinese does not care.
> 
> The Chinese members here will take great offense at the argument that the* J-20 is based off the MIG 1.44*, but that is the fact and truth. Yes, Chinese designers and engineers are well learned and trained enough, but so far, China have made no conceptual/theoretical and engineering breakthroughs in aviation in general, let alone military aviation. If you take a cube and smooth out the sharp corners and edges, you will get a lower RCS. But you will *STILL* have a cube as the foundation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not like comparing the conceptual/theoretical and engineering differences between an F-15 and the B-2. For a flight controls engineer, he has the vertical stab to work with on %99.999 of aircraft designs. But the flying wing will throw him for a loop. How is he going keep the aircraft stable and make coordinated turns? He must still give the pilot rudder pedals. But where are the rudders to start? The pilot will know that he is flying an aircraft that have no yaw axis stabilization surface, but he still need a method to turn the aircraft. So does the flight control computer. Both do not care if there is a yaw axis stabilization device or not. They just want something there.
> 
> *THAT* is what I am talking about.
> 
> But ultimately, the Chinese designers and engineers do not care on how much behind they are compare to American aviation. The 1.44's design served them well as the foundation for an indigenous 'stealth' fighter and they succeeded. Just like the rounded cube, they smoothed out the 1.44's basic design and with their own sub-systems, they can rightly claim the J-20 to be indigenous and in many respects, they are correct.
> 
> 
> Those are evolutionary designs while the F-117 is a revolutionary design. But because the Russians did not have a -117 equivalent to study the 'before' and 'after' effects of one method of RCS control -- angled faceting, the PAK is really similar to the J-20 in that both are evolutionary from existing designs.
> 
> 
> You are not saying anything new regarding money. Wealth allows leisure and eventually creativity and I am not going to feel ashamed at how much we spends on R/D, military or else. Scientists works the conceptual/theoretical but it is the engineers who must balance real world realities and limitations with concepts and theories that often posits the best scenarios, such as 'perfect electrical conductor' (PEC), which we know does not exist. Significant to the real world is financial constraints. If we have more money to pay more engineers and that gave US the lead, to the world I say: tough sh!t.


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## gambit

conworldus said:


> Kindly enlighten me what similarities are there between the 1.44 and 20 except they are both twin engine planes and have canards.


That is like saying the F-15 is no different than the Dornier Do335 because both have twin engines, wings, and a cockpit.






We are talking about the overall shape of both aircrafts. Just like how the A-5 led to the MIG-25 and the F-15, not how the MIG-25 led to the F-15, like most erroneously believes. The J-20 is essentially a superior refinement of the 1.44.


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## sancho

gambit said:


> The Chinese does not care.
> 
> The Chinese members here will take great offense at the argument that the J-20 is based off the MIG 1.44, but that is the fact and truth. Yes, Chinese designers and engineers are well learned and trained enough, but so far, China have made no conceptual/theoretical and engineering breakthroughs in aviation in general, let alone military aviation.



That's the point, that's why Russia was neither shocked, nor even surprised by the Chinese fighter developments, since they most likely was well aware of them, be it in fighter design, radar or engine fields.




gambit said:


> But ultimately, the Chinese designers and engineers do not care on how much behind they are compare to American aviation. The 1.44's design served them well as the foundation for an indigenous 'stealth' fighter and they succeeded. Just like the rounded cube, they smoothed out the 1.44's basic design and with their own sub-systems, they can rightly claim the J-20 to be indigenous and in many respects, they are correct.



They succeded in re-producing what they got from other sources and I have praised their capabilities in the production field often enough, but wrt to own developments, they still struggle, which is evident by the fact that they remain to be dependent on Russia for radar and engine techs. The J20 might look like a NG fighter, but unless it gets a NG radar, engine and avionics, it isn't!
It is still not confirmed if J11B has an AESA, or what kind of radar J10B gets, recent reports hints on delays possibly caused by the difficulties they have with own radar as well as engine developments. 
I don't critisize that they copy, they hardly have another choice, just like to spend huge ammounts of money, but they are technically still not on a level with the Russians now.



gambit said:


> angled faceting, the PAK is really similar to the J-20 in that both are evolutionary from existing designs.



The angled faceting is the same for any stealth fighter and is even similar to US stealth fighters. Also how is J20 evolutionary from existing designs, it it's a mix of the Mig 1.44 and the F22?
That would have been the case if they have further developed the J10 design to a stealth fighter (as early speculations suggested), but that obviously wasn't the case and that is the difference of their current capabilities, compared to Russian or US. The later have existing knowhow to base such NG developments on, China will only have it in the coming years and decades, but they will go there way.




gambit said:


> You are not saying anything new regarding money. Wealth allows leisure and eventually creativity and I am not going to feel ashamed at how much we spends on R/D, military or else.



But then you have the answer why Russia is behind and that it doesn't have anything to do with their general capability to develop things like this.


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## gambit

sancho said:


> That's the point, that's why Russia was neither shocked, nor even surprised by the Chinese fighter developments, since they most likely was well aware of them, be it in fighter design, radar or engine fields.


I doubt that the Russians had any inkling on which of their stuff the Chinese used as a foundation for a Chinese 'stealth' fighter, let alone a fighter whose sophistication -- at least by appearances -- is on a par with theirs. In this competition for 'stealth', it is between the Russians and the Chinese, no longer US, and the Chinese does not need to produce any conceptual/theoretical and/or engineering breakthroughs, they just need to either meet the Russians or near their standards, to gain respect as an aviation power and we can reasonably assume that the Russians never believed that China, who have been a steady customer, to actually produce something like the J-20.



sancho said:


> They succeded in re-producing what they got from other sources and I have praised their capabilities in the production field often enough, but wrt to own developments, they still struggle, which is evident by the fact that they remain to be dependent on Russia for radar and engine techs. The J20 might look like a NG fighter, but unless it gets a NG radar, engine and avionics, it isn't!
> It is still not confirmed if J11B has an AESA, or what kind of radar J10B gets, recent reports hints on delays possibly caused by the difficulties they have with own radar as well as engine developments.
> I don't critisize that they copy, they hardly have another choice, just like to spend huge ammounts of money, but they are technically still not on a level with the Russians now.


I bet sub-systems developments are concurrent with airframe. Am not saying that all started at the same time and may be they were, but if the Chinese were willing to risk much money in trying to have their own 'stealth' fighter, they would be willing to live adapting existing level of avionics into the new J-20 until truly indigenous avionics development caught up. The Chinese do not need to achieve everything at once.



sancho said:


> The angled faceting is the same for any stealth fighter and is even similar to US stealth fighters.


Not as prominent today. Basically, the world has learned that while the technique works, too much sacrifices are needed in other areas, notably agility, in order to have stable flight. The US explored and largely eliminated that technique as primary for a flying low radar observable body.



sancho said:


> Also how is J20 evolutionary from existing designs, it it's a mix of the Mig 1.44 and the F22?


Not F-22. My contention is that the J-20 is an evolutionary design of the 1.44.



sancho said:


> That would have been the case if they have further developed the J10 design to a stealth fighter (as early speculations suggested), but that obviously wasn't the case and that is the difference of their current capabilities, compared to Russian or US. The later have existing knowhow to base such NG developments on, China will only have it in the coming years and decades, but they will go there way.


The J-10 has a single vertical stab. Sorry, but that alone disqualified the J-10 as candidate for RCS reduction measures ala 'Silent Eagle'.




sancho said:


> But then you have the answer why Russia is behind and that it doesn't have anything to do with their general capability to develop things like this.


The break up of the Soviet Union compounded the consequences of when the Soviets rejected Ufimtsev's work.

Speculate that the Soviet Union did not break up. What this mean is that the F-117 and B-2 would have been produced in larger quantities. Then when the F-22 and F-35 designs are under manufacture, there would have been no reduction in purchase quantity. Probably the F-35 would not be available for partners, or to very limited partners. Back during the Cold War, the Soviet Union was already behind US in vital areas like electronics and metallurgy, so would the Soviet Union in this speculation be able to build an F-117 equivalent when the Americans would be rolling out the F-22? Not likely. When Ufimtsev's work was rejected, it became legal for Ufimsev to publish his work in the open. Even if this Soviet Union draft Ufimtsev to build a Soviet 'stealth' aircraft, the methodology cat is already out of the bag and we ran with it for at least one generation. With the pressure of the communist threat, budget for a mostly 'stealth' air combat fleet will not be much of a problem in the US Congress. Without a 'war on terror', low radar observable UAVs will be built in droves and stationed throughout Western Europe without the Warsaw Pact the wiser on where. The Soviet Union was already economically depressed to start, MIG and Sukhoi will not be able to catch up.


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## sancho

gambit said:


> Not F-22.



The cockpit section is a direct copy of the F22, althought the general design is based on the Mig, which isn't surprising since it's known that many Mig scientists went over to Chinas payrol and I am not saying this in a mean way, but to show where the design really comes from. Chinas contribution and excellence is in the production and re-design fields and they have mastered it to a high level. However, that also shows how far they are with their own R&D capabilities and I agree with you that they don't need it, as long they can achieve the same like this too, since nobody can do anything against it anyway, but that also limits their capabilities, because a copy will never the as capable as the original!



gambit said:


> The J-10 has a single vertical stab. Sorry, but that alone disqualified the J-10 as candidate for RCS reduction measures ala 'Silent Eagle'



Not really, since it's not a big deal to re-design it to have 2 canted once, more over an evolution of J10 could be based on the same design principles, but with further developed design wrt to stealth (remember the JXX concepts, with chin mounted air intakes, which clearly was based on J10).




gambit said:


> Speculate that the Soviet Union did not break up.



Then we would have seen a superpower with much similar capabilities than the US, keep in mind that they were building their own CATOBAR supercarriers, with AWACS aircrafts at that time too, that their missile capability was always very high, that they have easily developed coatings for their supersonic bombers and that they got quiet some infos from the German secret projects too. Stealth design would only be the next step for them to make their bomber fleet more capable and Russia and the US are still the only countries that have such a high focus on advanced bombers, which is why they are thinking about Pak Da, just like you think about a new stealth bomber as well.


Be it as it may, the point was that Russia is still clearly ahead of China in design, radar and engine technology, just like in terms of innovations and that is visible even in the T50 prototypes, while the final Pak FA / FGFA might offer even more.

So lets get back to this topic again!


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## lepziboy

whats with the symbol on the tail cone?


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## rumrunner

gambit said:


> That is like saying the F-15 is no different than the Dornier Do335 because both have twin engines, wings, and a cockpit.
> 
> We are talking about the overall shape of both aircrafts. Just like how the A-5 led to the MIG-25 and the F-15, not how the MIG-25 led to the F-15, like most erroneously believes. The J-20 is essentially a superior refinement of the 1.44.



I disagree. There are certain similarities for sure such as both possessing canards, twin engines, twin rudders, etc. The differences one could see just from the top aspect as you have provided includes (but no limited to) the following: 

-J20 possesses lerx on the main wing
-Differences in edge alignments between the canard/wing trailing edges with consideration to stealth
-The shape of the cockpit
-The angles that the rudders are canted

One could also observe the following differences if viewing both planes from the frontal and side aspects:

-Shape of the nose (J20's nose is much more similiar to that of F22's nose, but so could the same be said of PAKFA's nose)
-Shape of the intake (this one is pretty significant here as the Mig 1.44 has intakes on the under sides, whereas the J20 has side intakes with DSI shaping)
-Shape of the rudder is completely different and the difference in the angles that the rudders are canted is much more obvious when viewed from the frontal aspect.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

lepziboy said:


> whats with the symbol on the tail cone?



Radiation hazard.

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## lepziboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Radiation hazard.



i asked my question in a wrong way.i mean why is it there?because of the radar?


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## BlueDot_in_Space

lepziboy said:


> i asked my question in a wrong way.i mean why is it there?because of the radar?



Yup aft looking radar.


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## Roybot

lepziboy said:


> i asked my question in a wrong way.i mean why is it there?because of the radar?



Yes, radars emit microwave radiation. Pak-Fa has rearward facing radar in its tail cone.

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## sudhir007



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## S-DUCT

*Interview of NIIP director gen. yuri bely*


> The radar for the advanced russian-indian 5th generation fighter known as PMF(Perspective multirole fighter) is being derived from the AESA radar designed for the pak-fa.

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## SpArK

HAL to complete preliminary design phase for FGFA next month. R&D to begin after that.

HAL to build 3 FGFA prototypes after R&D..

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## Sergi

SpArK said:


> HAL to complete preliminary design phase for FGFA next month. R&D to begin after that.
> 
> _*HAL to build 3 FGFA prototypes after R&*_D..



More confusion 

If you can share Where did you get the information sir ???

If HAL is going to build the protos then what are we planning to do with the protos coming from Russia in 2014,2016 and 2018 ??? Or that thing is gone with the dual seat ???

If true , we might get FGFA well before 2020 
@SpArK: old profile pic was cool

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## SpArK

Sergi said:


> More confusion
> 
> If you can share *Where did you get the information sir ???*
> 
> If HAL is going to build the protos then what are we planning to do with the protos coming from Russia in 2014,2016 and 2018 ??? Or that thing is gone with the dual seat ???
> 
> If true , we might get FGFA well before 2020
> @SpArK: old profile pic was cool



HAL press conference....

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> More confusion
> 
> If you can share Where did you get the information sir ???
> 
> If HAL is going to build the protos then what are we planning to do with the protos coming from Russia in 2014,2016 and 2018 ??? Or that thing is gone with the dual seat ???
> 
> If true , we might get FGFA well before 2020
> @SpArK: old profile pic was cool




The earlier news actually said that India will get prototypes in 2014..., but not from where right? So we might not get prototypes from Russia at all and will build them in India according to our configs.

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## trident2010

If we make the prototypes ourselves this mean even more delays ??


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## gambit

rumrunner said:


> I disagree. There are certain similarities for sure such as both possessing canards, twin engines, twin rudders, etc. The differences one could see just from the top aspect as you have provided includes (but no limited to) the following:
> 
> -J20 possesses lerx on the main wing
> -Differences in edge alignments between the canard/wing trailing edges with consideration to stealth
> -The shape of the cockpit
> -The angles that the rudders are canted
> 
> One could also observe the following differences if viewing both planes from the frontal and side aspects:
> 
> -Shape of the nose (J20's nose is much more similiar to that of F22's nose, but so could the same be said of PAKFA's nose)
> -Shape of the intake (this one is pretty significant here as the Mig 1.44 has intakes on the under sides, whereas the J20 has side intakes with DSI shaping)
> -Shape of the rudder is completely different and the difference in the angles that the rudders are canted is much more obvious when viewed from the frontal aspect.


That is why I said the J-20 is a more refined version of the 1.44 with respect to progress in aviation and low radar observability need.


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> If we make the prototypes ourselves this mean even more delays ??



Why? We only integrate the parts that we want to change, while the basic protoype will be similar to the once Russia have. In fact we might not even see a difference at the early prototypes, since the differences should be internal once mainly (materials, avionics, possibly cockpit displays).


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## trident2010

sancho said:


> Why? We only integrate the parts that we want to change, while the basic protoype will be similar to the once Russia have. In fact we might not even see a difference at the early prototypes, since the differences should be internal once mainly (materials, avionics, possibly cockpit displays).



If the modifications are not very extensive then its ok but I afraid if we try to develop something overambitious.


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> If the modifications are not very extensive then its ok but I afraid if we try to develop something overambitious.



In this case, the bulk of the work will be done by Russians anyway, but if we had decided for a single seater earlier, we could have been involved far earlier in the project and to a greater extend in the design stage. But in India decisions take too long and people don't understand the benefits of co-developments.


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## Jayanta

India should scrap AMCA and concentrate on FGFA.


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## BlueDot_in_Space

trident2010 said:


> If we make the prototypes ourselves this mean even more delays ??



Prototypes will come from russia for the initial testing by HAL. Later HAL will produce them based on the TOT transferred from russia.


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## 1000VA




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## trident2010

When will Russia begin with the weapons test with T-50? Wold be interesting to see the weapons they are using for PAK-FA.


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> When will Russia begin with the weapons test with T-50? Wold be interesting to see the weapons they are using for PAK-FA.



They are integrating randar and other systems in the latest prototypes, but they are also still developing the weapon package for the Pak Fa, so it might still take some time.
Besides A2A weapons, SEAD and PGMs will be part of the package for sure!

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## trident2010

sancho said:


> They are integrating randar and other systems in the latest prototypes, but they are also still developing the weapon package for the Pak Fa, so it might still take some time.
> Besides A2A weapons, SEAD and PGMs will be part of the package for sure!



Once they finish with radar / associated electronics integration and develop the weapons package, then the real business will begin.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> They are integrating randar and other systems in the latest prototypes, but they are also still developing the weapon package for the Pak Fa, so it might still take some time.
> Besides A2A weapons, SEAD and PGMs will be part of the package for sure!



What do you think of French weapons in PAKFA, like MICA? would it be good to have a mix of Russian and French weapons in PAKFA. As for Russian A2A missiles I somehow dont trust them to be accurate...


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## GURU DUTT

Dash said:


> What do you think of French weapons in PAKFA, like MICA? would it be good to have a mix of Russian and French weapons in PAKFA. * As for Russian A2A missiles I somehow dont trust them to be accurate.*..



That was true a decade back but now the russians have regained a lot from international sources and on there own aswell there is no reason to beleave that russian hardware any less potent than its american or french counterparts + we have that advantage aswell it wont be a surprize when youl see a lot of french /israeli stuff on the PAKFA Or FGFA whatever comes to india


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## sancho

Dash said:


> What do you think of French weapons in PAKFA, like MICA? would it be good to have a mix of Russian and French weapons in PAKFA. As for Russian A2A missiles I somehow dont trust them to be accurate...



French weapons would be a great addition, especially MICA. For current generation fighters, BVR missiles with long range and no escape zones are important, to shoot the missiles from safe distances, that's why METEOR will be a good step forwards.
For 5th gen fighters on the other side, which have the advantage of stealth and can get way closer to the targets without beeing detected, short to medium range missiles like MICA are preferable! MICA is smaller and lighter than Astra or R77 versions, which means FGFA might be able to carry more of them at once and since all MICA version can be used in WVR as well as BVR, FGFA could multiply it's combat capability.
However, MICA is a very costly missile, because of the variety of capabilities and the limited production numbers. One reason I would have loved to see an extention of the Maitri SAM co-development, to a joint MICA replacement as well. The French forces will replace MICA EM with METEOR by 2018, but have not selected a replacement for MICA IR so far. UK could be a possible partner for a joint development, but with Maitri co-development, we already have the base and could easialy develop an air 2 air missile based on that as well.

AASM is also an excellent PGM, with a lot of good capabilities, but as MICA it suffers from a high unit cost. With Russian and more importantly our own bomb developments, I don't think AASM would be integrated to FGFA. The Israeli SPICE PGM might have higher chances now and could offer a good addition to Sudharshan bomb kits.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Dash said:


> What do you think of French weapons in PAKFA, like MICA? would it be good to have a mix of Russian and French weapons in PAKFA. As for Russian A2A missiles I somehow dont trust them to be accurate...



With 5th gen planes employing a particular weapons bay configuration, I think it would be harder to use foreign weapons unless the bay configuration allows that. May be a universal weapons bay is the answer if India is considering using French weapons. Russians would not want that.


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## rockstarIN

Astra MKII have good chance to get into FGFA which in range wise should equal to Meteor since it will be using Ramjet.


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## DARKY

trident2010 said:


> When will Russia begin with the weapons test with T-50? Wold be interesting to see the weapons they are using for PAK-FA.



No. 54 would be used to test weapons-


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## trident2010

DARKY said:


> No. 54 would be used to test weapons-



Any time frame from which this begins?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Astra MKII have good chance to get into FGFA which in range wise should equal to Meteor since it will be using Ramjet.



We should get MK1 ready and mature first and design it with folding wings to integrate it into the weapon bays, before thinking about an MK2. Besides that the Ramjet is not the key for range, but for speed and a larger no escape zone, but as I explained earlier, this is only important for non stealth fighters!

A stealth fighter can close in to a nost stealth fighter below 100Km without beeing detected, but the minute it opens the weaponbay and launches a missile, it can be detected by radar or EW sensors. So why should you expose yourself at long range, only because your missile has a range of 100Km+, when you can savely get closer and give the opponent less reaction time? 
That's why I said, that for a stealth fighter MICA might be the better missile than METEOR, although for Rafale it would be the other way around.

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## gambit

sancho said:


> We should get MK1 ready and mature first and design it with folding wings to integrate it into the weapon bays, before thinking about an MK2. Besides that the Ramjet is not the key for range, but for speed and a larger no escape zone, but as I explained earlier, this is only important for non stealth fighters!
> 
> A stealth fighter can close in to a nost stealth fighter below 100Km without beeing detected, but *the minute it opens the weaponbay and launches a missile, it can be detected by radar or EW sensors.* So why should you expose yourself at long range, only because your missile has a range of 100Km+, when you can savely get closer and give the opponent less reaction time?
> That's why I said, that for a stealth fighter MICA might be the better missile than METEOR, although for Rafale it would be the other way around.


Only radar and only if the seeking radar is looking at the 'stealth' fighter. If the 'stealth' fighter is in a tail chase situation, he can fly with external stores and his adversary would not know about him.


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## Agnostic_Indian

sancho said:


> We should get MK1 ready and mature first and design it with folding wings to integrate it into the weapon bays, before thinking about an MK2. Besides that the Ramjet is not the key for range, but for speed and a larger no escape zone, but as I explained earlier, this is only important for non stealth fighters!
> 
> A stealth fighter can close in to a nost stealth fighter below 100Km without beeing detected, but the minute it opens the weaponbay and launches a missile, it can be detected by radar or EW sensors. So why should you expose yourself at long range, only because your missile has a range of 100Km+, when you can savely get closer and give the opponent less reaction time?
> That's why I said, that for a stealth fighter MICA might be the better missile than METEOR, although for Rafale it would be the other way around.



if both fighters approach head on, then 4th gen fighter can use it's IRST, FSO etc to detect the stealth fighter right ?
if it's tail chase what advantage has a stealth fighter compared to non stealth fighter ? (talking about 4gen fighter which has no rear looking radar ). 

add a awac to the picture and sneaking in becomes even difficult in every scenario. 

even for ramjet version of bvr missiles nez will be 80km -100km head on right ?at that ranges both party will be alerted that enemy is out there ? dis advantage for 4 gen fighter is that it may not have a firing solution at that ranges because it's radar can't detect/track stealth fighter and passive solutions will not be able to get firing solution at that ranges and is extremely unreliable. what you say ?


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## The A-5

gambit said:


> Only radar and only if the seeking radar is looking at the 'stealth' fighter. If the 'stealth' fighter is in a tail chase situation, he can fly with external stores and his adversary would not know about him.



But jets whose radars have rear hemispheric coverage can detect jets at the hind, can't they? At least
at 50km range. EO-DAS or the EO-DASski on PAKFA can detect heat signatures at rear as well.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> We should get MK1 ready and mature first and design it with folding wings to integrate it into the weapon bays, before thinking about an MK2. Besides that the Ramjet is not the key for range, but for speed and a larger no escape zone, but as I explained earlier, this is only important for non stealth fighters!
> 
> A stealth fighter can close in to a nost stealth fighter below 100Km without beeing detected, but the minute it opens the weaponbay and launches a missile, it can be detected by radar or EW sensors. So why should you expose yourself at long range, only because your missile has a range of 100Km+, when you can savely get closer and give the opponent less reaction time?
> That's why I said, that for a stealth fighter MICA might be the better missile than METEOR, although for Rafale it would be the other way around.



1)Do you think No Escape zone and range of the missile (read ramjet propelled) has no relation? 
2) EW sensors specially heat seeking sensors have range more than 60-80 km(Flanker series for e.g), so going close to 4.5 gen fighters around 50-60 km won't be put stealth fighter in a vulnerable position?
3) The enemy air craft(4.5 gen) did not understand the stealth fighter's presence when the stealth fighter try use its radar to track and try to get a radar lock for a BVR missile launch?


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## gambit

The A-5 said:


> But jets whose radars have rear hemispheric coverage can detect jets at the hind, can't they? At least
> at 50km range.


If and even then, it is dubious because weapons bay doors do not stay open for long. Further, when popular media articles make the claim that an opened weapons bay door will reveal the 'stealth' aircraft, they do not mention the fact that the best such view is when the radar is looking *STRAIGHT* at the opened bay, but the reality is that a weapons bay on the other side of the aircraft is the one that opens.



The A-5 said:


> EO-DAS or the EO-DASski on PAKFA can detect heat signatures at rear as well.


Weapons bay door opening do not create IR emissions.

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## DARKY

trident2010 said:


> Any time frame from which this begins?



It would start soon and this year... once the aircraft completes initial testing and sensor testing etc.


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## trident2010

DARKY said:


> It would start soon and this year... once the aircraft completes initial testing and sensor testing etc.



That would be interesting too see.


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## sancho

gambit said:


> Only radar and only if the seeking radar is looking at the 'stealth' fighter. If the 'stealth' fighter is in a tail chase situation, he can fly with external stores and his adversary would not know about him.



Of course, but within enemy airspace the enemy don't have only fighter radars an not only a single fighter. Even if you are behind the fighter, opening the weapon bays makes you detectable for any ground radar or AWACS. So closing in, reducing the time to launch a weapon is preferable for a stealth fighter, than using long range weapons. 
Also EW sensors like MAWS at modern fighters will detect the launch in the rear section as well, which again makes a later launch preferable, to reduce the reaction time for the target.



Agnostic_Indian said:


> if both fighters approach head on, then 4th gen fighter can use it's IRST, FSO etc to detect the stealth fighter right ?
> if it's tail chase what advantage has a stealth fighter compared to non stealth fighter ? (talking about 4gen fighter which has no rear looking radar ).



As said above, modern fighters offers EW sensors like RWR, MAWS and ESM that can detect EM signals of the fighter itself or the missile launch itself. Most modern systems even offer 360° detection, to cover all areas, the stealth fighter still of course is in advantage.



Agnostic_Indian said:


> even for ramjet version of bvr missiles nez will be 80km -100km head on right ?*at that ranges both party will be alerted that enemy is out there *?



That's the point and be it stealth fighters, or SSBNs, the aim is always to stay undetected as long as possible and to close in without beeing detected, to launch it's weapons with low response time for the enemy.




rockstar said:


> 1)Do you think No Escape zone and range of the missile (read ramjet propelled) has no relation?



Not necessarily, because you can have missiles like AIM 120D and latest R77 missiles with 100+ Km range, which is basically possible by the ammount of fuel they carry and not by the propulsion. The Ramjet propulsion instead mainly benefits the missile to remain high speed for the full range and don't get slower like the earlier missiles in the terminal stages. 

Rest see above.

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## ptldM3

http://www.ausairpower.net/Rus-VLO/...377-IncPol-TM-Pol-Theta-[E=135.0-A=225.0].png

http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-VLO/...ing-IncPol-TM-Pol-Theta-[E=135.0-A=225.0].png


Some interesting physical optics simulations conducted by Carlo Kopp. What is interesting is that this is a comparison of the J-20 and pak-fa; it has been speculated or proclaimed that the pak-fa is 'not stealthy' especially from underneath by most Chinese.

Both models were tested under the exact same conditions. 1.2 GHz, Elev 135 Azm 225; consequently, the pak-fa is far better in this frequency/angle. Other comparisons under different frequencies/angles shows that sometimes the j-20 is better, sometimes the pak-fa is better, other times they are too close to distinguish either.

Most J-20 fanboys mocked the pak-fa going as far as going to different forums and starting threads as to how it is junk. Martian is going to be suicidal especially since Kopp has been the authority on the subject in his eyes

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## Dash

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> With 5th gen planes employing a particular weapons bay configuration, I think it would be harder to use foreign weapons unless the bay configuration allows that. May be a universal weapons bay is the answer if India is considering using French weapons. Russians would not want that.



PAKFA can fly with external load, and there will be a time when it will...


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## rockstarIN

gambit said:


> Only radar and only if the seeking radar is looking at the 'stealth' fighter. If the 'stealth' fighter is in a tail chase situation, he can fly with external stores and his adversary would not know about him.



When a stealth fighter closes in and try to get a radar lock on the 4ht gen fighter, didn't the 4th gen fighter will get alerted while it is being tracked?


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## gambit

sancho said:


> Of course, but within enemy airspace the enemy don't have only fighter radars an not only a single fighter. Even if you are behind the fighter, opening the weapon bays makes you detectable for any ground radar or AWACS. So closing in, reducing the time to launch a weapon is preferable for a stealth fighter, than using long range weapons.


Again...Only if said radar, air or ground, is looking at the opened bay. Further, you know that the physical and EM frontal profiles of any aircraft is the lowest. Same for a weapons bay door. If the seeking radar is looking at the edge of said opened door, he will not see the opened bay but only that edge.



rockstar said:


> When a stealth fighter closes in and try to get a radar lock on the 4ht gen fighter, didn't the 4th gen fighter will get alerted while it is being tracked?


If his RWR has sufficient sophistication to distinguish out low probability of intercept (LPI) transmissions.

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## The A-5

@gambit

Sir is there any chance F-22 Raptor could recieve a modified version of EODAS in a future MLU?

It would be great if it gets all-round IR/EO sensors.


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## gambit

The A-5 said:


> @gambit
> 
> Sir is there any chance F-22 Raptor could recieve a modified version of EODAS in a future MLU?
> 
> It would be great if it gets all-round IR/EO sensors.


Absolutely. The -22 is much more modular than people think. Upgrades to sub-systems are definitely technically feasible.

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## S-DUCT

Head NPO Saturn, Yevgeny Martchkov, states the Stage 2 engine/type 30 will be ready by 2017.


> «&#1053;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1090;&#1099; &#1080; &#1091;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1096;&#1085;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1078;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103; &#1086;&#1087;&#1099;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;-&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1091;&#1082;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1099; &#1087;&#1086; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1102; &#1074;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1101;&#1090;&#1072;&#1087;&#1072;. &#1052;&#1072;&#1096;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090; &#1075;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072; &#1082; 2017 &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1091;», - &#1091;&#1090;&#1086;&#1095;&#1085;&#1080;&#1083; &#1052;&#1072;&#1088;&#1095;&#1091;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;. &#1042; &#1090;&#1086; &#1078;&#1077; &#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1103; &#1086;&#1085; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1087;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1083; &#1085;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1089;&#1082;&#1088;&#1099;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1077; &#1080; &#1090;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1086;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1077; &#1076;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1081; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1087;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1086;&#1090;&#1077;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1082;&#1080;, &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1048;&#1058;&#1040;&#1056;-&#1058;&#1040;&#1057;&#1057;.
> 
> "[NPO Saturn] has initiated and successfully continued development work on the second stage engine. It will be ready by the year 2017, "said Martchkov. At the same time, he declined to disclose the technical and technological details of the future development, as reported by ITAR-TASS News Agency.
> 
> *


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## Badbadman

aimarraul said:


>


Pretty good

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## Jayanta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvoSi5BMoR0


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## SQ8

*IAF FGFA, 3rd Squadron "Cobras" 2018*

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## The A-5

@Oscar

What site did you get these from?


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## DARKY

Oscar said:


> *IAF FGFA, 3rd Squadron "Cobras" 2018*



You can easily add 10 years more as a more realist date...... most optimistic would be 7 years more atleast.


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## SQ8

The A-5 said:


> @Oscar
> 
> What site did you get these from?



Made em myself.

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## Abingdonboy

@Oscar that is some nice work!


+ you forget to add thrust vectoring nozzles!


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> *IAF FGFA, 3rd Squadron "Cobras" 2018*



Nice work as usual, but I think you have placed the IR sensors on the side of the cockpit too low:







Can you also do a version with these nozzles and modifications:















The A-5 said:


> @Oscar
> 
> What site did you get these from?



His own mods:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-548.html#post2951967

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-550.html#post2956414


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## KRAIT

@Oscar Nice work Sir.


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## SQ8

Well the Mod is someone else's.. but it was half baked.. so I tweaked it to fly.. Wish I could record a video.. really got TVC working as it should.
Im currently trying to see if I can get it to lug around Astras and Brahmos.. on the wings.. I suppose they should be strong enough to carry it. 
But I think I can get a fleet going for a nice pose.. 
MKI, Mig-29 UPG, M2K,Rafale and this.. all flying in nice formation.

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## rkapo7

orangzaib said:


> I hope they aren't using the wrong tool set to open up the panels. That'll definitely hinder the RCS. This is probably a trial plane. Lack of Quality Assurance is usually seen in Russian and Chinese weapon systems. The US manufacturers wouldn't have brought the plane in this shape for flight tests. They would do further work to avoid any risk during flight. I can see some aluminum and silicon conductor and composite panels that aren't done correctly or can produce drag, etc during flight. I am sure that will change when they finalize the jet but it'll be considered a flight risk had this been in the US.
> 
> Plus, this is a modified-angular version of the Flanker family airframe. This will produce a low RCS jet not a 'new' 'all aspect' wholly entirely 'stealthy' plane like the F-22. It's visible from the design, geometry and a million pictures and drawings that I've seen and reviewed on different places. Not trying to discredit this, it will be leaps ahead of the current jets due to the RCS control and advanced EM and Super Cruise, etc. But, this isn't a direct competition to the F-22 or the F-35. I will credit this airframe for extreme speed, agility and maneuvers.
> 
> I think I will go as far as to say that the Chinese J-20 and J-31 may be a closer competitor to the Raptor and the F-35 compared to the TU models. The Chinese have stolen some US technology and they've known to work on advanced surfaces, stealth designs and miniaturized supercomputers for jets and high profile EM-Avionics suite.



You are talking rubbish. Just take a look at some US prototypes on there first flight. Not painted and rivets also everywhere. It was not until the 3rd Prototype they actually put the composite nose cone on the Pak Fa to test the new Radar from memory. 

Also in one of your other posts you claim the US has led since WW2. On fighters - they did not lead during WW2. Britain and Germany led. Britain had the Spitfire in production in 1936. The first world class US fighter was the P51 in terms of airframe in 1941. No good with its US engine. Finally in 1943 re-engined with a British Merlin it became effective in 1943. By then of course Britain had the Mosquito. Probably a more effective fighter and light bomber than the P51. German reports say pilots were more afraid of the Mosquito than the P51. [Yes the P51 was good but not until 1943.] The USSR Yaks were good also by then. The P51 was pitiful to start with and the British only used it for recon etc until then.
Mig15 V F86 - Korea. Very hard to tell how they went against the 36 Russian Migs there. US figures have been proved to be about 5 times too high since all Russian Squadron records were released. Example: The US Ace? who claimed 4 Russian Migs on days when no Russian Migs were in the air. 
Overall balanced people accept the Mig15 was superior in terms of airframe. More agile - better ceiling - better climb rate - better cannon etc. Maybe not as comfortable but living I imagine comes before comfort.
What did balance up the contest was the superior Gun sight on the F86. Overall if there were equal numbers of Mig15's and F86's and they were all flown by experienced WW2 Pilots like most US F86's the Mig15 would probably have won the Air War. 

Next - The Mig17 in production in 1953 - basically an improved Mig15 - all the bugs fixed etc. The US F100 put in production in 1954 with reservations on the part of the USAF. It had problems that were never really fully overcome. It had a terrible attrition rate. They had to do something with the Mig17 coming off the production line. The F86 would have had no chance against the Mig17. The F100 tried to incorporate all the good airframe features of the Mig15 - the swept wing etc. 

Vietnam- the USAF admits they lost the initial part of the air war there 9-1. They went home and created better tactics and in effect came back with an Aircraft that skipped a few other models. The Phantom. Against a new Air-force that only started with about 75 aircraft - the mainstay was 36 Mig17's the USSR gave N-Vietnam. The USSR had the Mig21 [In production 1959-1985] which Vietnam only saw a few of towards the end. USAF pilots who flew a captured one for 100 sorties considered it equal to the Phantom in the Air to Air role. The Mig23 was the Russian counter to the Phantom [about 1973]. If the F100 was so good why didn't the USAF send then up against the Mig17's in Vietnam - the US equivalent aircraft. There can only be one reason - guess! The US had thousands of them and 100's in Vietnam but all they did was ground support. By 1972 Russia had the Mig25. Sure only an 800 hour engine life but you can fly lots of combat missions in 400 hours. Change the engine in about 1.5 hours if necessary - designed to be done in the field. As was proven in Israel when the Russians flew Recon missions over Israel nothing Israel had could touch them. Some "US types" claim a Phantom got close to it once. In a book I read about the conflict a Jewish South African pilot flying a Mirage for the IAF says it was the Mirages only that had a chance of l
getting close enough to launch a Missile? It does not matter - they could not shoot one down anyway. Sure one Russian crew cooked there motors escaping a missile but I imagine there orders were to take no chances. Better a few cooked motors than a lost aircraft over Israeli territory. Especially if it came down in one piece. 

Just where are all these superior US Aircraft since WW2. I have not even gone into European Aircraft of the time. 

It simply did not happen until the F15 went into production about 1976. 
All of its kills also have tended to be against downgraded 3rd Gen or very early downgraded Mig29's of lesser Airforces etc. Just how it would have gone against USSR or Russian T-10's with a good experienced pilot on equal terms is still unknown. 
Throw in some Mig25's and Mig31's and it would be interesting. 
Hollywood does not always tell the truth.

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## ANPP

^^^^
But now situation is changed. While others were struggling due economic reasons, USA funded them freely. And now it is far ahead of other counties.


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## Koovie

DARKY said:


> You can easily add 10 years more as a more realist date...... most optimistic would be 7 years more atleast.



At the current state, everything seems to go according to plan in Russia. So its likely that we will get the 1st prototype next year according to the plan.


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## S-DUCT

Koovie said:


> At the current state, everything seems to go according to plan in Russia. So its likely that we will get the 1st prototype next year according to the plan.


Who is in charge of FGFA prototype..india or russia ?


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## Koovie

S-DUCT said:


> Who is in charge of FGFA prototype..india or russia ?



The one which comes here next year? 

I guess the IAF and HAL will play around with it.

But I havent read anything related to this, just my guess.

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## S-DUCT

Koovie said:


> The one which comes here next year?
> 
> I guess the IAF and HAL will play around with it.
> 
> But I havent read anything related to this, just my guess.


But don't you think that 2 years is very short time frame to develope the 1st prototype.
IMO,it would take around 4-5 years if they try to build from scratch.
or
They will just assemble Semi-knocked-downkits.


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## Koovie

S-DUCT said:


> But don't you think that 2 years is very short time frame to develope the 1st prototype.
> IMO,it would take around 4-5 years if they try to build from scratch.
> or
> They will just assemble Semi-knocked-downkits.



I highly doubt that it will be built in India. Although no one ever officially excluded that possibility but its highly unlikey since HAL does not have the capabilities to build a stealth fighter till next year. Or the coming 5 years to be honest.

I think its good that we get the prototypes so early since we paid 30 billion

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## DARKY

Koovie said:


> At the current state, everything seems to go according to plan in Russia. So its likely that we will get the 1st prototype next year according to the plan.



No Its an year after the next year... and I was talking of a 3rd squadron and not some Prototype.


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## Srinivas

*Russia, India Describe Next-Gen Fighter Plans* 







The air force commanders of both Russia and India have this month discussed the progress and future schedule of the fifth-generation Sukhoi fighter project. They are keen to have their own pilots evaluate the design so that they can take a decision on further funding for the project.
Russian air force commander Gen. Victor Bondarev said that he expects all four flyable prototypes of the so-called PAKFA (Future Aviation Complex of Frontal Aviation) to gather at the defense ministry&#8217;s test base and firing range near Akhtubinsk in Southern Russia, for customer assessment and weapons release trials. By the year-end their number shall increase to eight. If tests are a success, the PAKFA will go into series production in late 2015 or early 2016.

In his turn, Indian air force chief of staff told journalists at the recent Aero India show that he expects arrival of three PAKFA development prototypes in India, the first in 2015, the second in 2017 and the third in 2018. Air Marshall N. A. K. Browne said that the design and development phase of what India calls the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) is proceeding well under &#8220;a small-value contract.&#8221; When it is completed later this year, India and Russia will sign a new R&D contract &#8220;which is the mother of all phases,&#8221; he added.

Should India be satisfied with flight performance of the FGFA, it will fund the next phase: creation of a customized version for the Indian air force by a joint team of Russian and Indian engineers. The Indian version would use same airframe, engines and main systems, and differ in mission hardware and software, as well as weapons nomenclature. Series airframes manufacturing would commence at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in 2022, Browne added.
At Aero India, United Aircraft Corporation&#8217;s president Mikhail Pogosyan said that Russia and India would buy &#8220;over 400&#8221; aircraft and that the total market would exceed 600. He confirmed that all four prototypes built to date are now in flight test, and said that additional development aircraft will be completed &#8220;as necessary, after the two sides sign the full-scale development contract.&#8221;

Pogosyan further insisted that both Russian and Indian versions &#8220;will be based not only on the same platform, but also have identical onboard systems and avionics.&#8221; Indian air force specialists had been involved in working out specification to the aircraft &#8220;from the very beginning and through all development phases.&#8221; He continued, &#8220;It may happen that in future there will be some specific [national] requirements for onboard systems or additional missions, but these would be formally agreed by both customers.&#8221; Pogosyan expects the FGFA to follow the Su-30MKI/MKM example, in which &#8220;the Indian and Malaysian air forces use the very same platform, with the difference confined to a few avionics items.&#8221;

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...ibe-next-gen-fighter-plans.html#ixzz2MJ6F9gWQ



Russia, India Describe Next-Gen Fighter Plans | Aviation International News

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## ejaz007

*Latest update:*


March 1/13: Plans & Schedule. High-level Russian and Indian sources offer a bit more clarity concerning dates, but they seem to be at odds regarding electronics.

Russian VVF commander Gen. Victor Bondarev expects weapons release trials to begin in 2013, as the number of aircraft rises from 4  8. If tests go well, the fighter could enter series production in late 2015 or early 2016. Based on past fighter programs, that may be a bit optimistic.

Meanwhile, IAF chief of staff Air Marshall N.A.K. Browne is expecting to sign the big design & development contract for the FGFA in 2013. Theyll receive 3 developmental prototypes in India in 2015, 2017 and then 2018, rather than the wider 2014-2019 window reported earlier. That SDD version would apparently be fully common between Russia and India, making Pogosyan (vid. Feb 7/13) correct to that point. India would then fund, as a separate project, FGFA (SU-50KI?) customization for the Indian air force by a joint team of Russian and Indian engineers. The difference is described as mission hardware and software, though it would be surprising if Indian bureaucrats fetish for indigenization was forced to stop there. Series manufacturing would begin at HAL in 2022. 

If true, it means that India wouldnt see operational serving FGFA fighters until 2025 at the earliest, and thats only if HALs known industrial issues with high-tech production (vid. LCA Tejas & M-MRCA programs) are fully solved by 2022. AIN


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-russia-in-negotiations-re-nextgeneration-fighter-03133/


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## Jayanta

Can anybody say whether the FGFA will be better than the mighty F-22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrwwtq8gnww


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## sancho

Jayanta said:


> Can anybody say whether the FGFA will be better than the mighty F-22



At this point no, because it's just in prototype stage. However in certain fields it is very likely to be better than the F22, cruise speed, range, payload, detection capability for example.


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## ANPP

Jayanta said:


> Can anybody say whether the FGFA will be better than the mighty F-22
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrwwtq8gnww



No, Raptor was completely design for stealth. So indeed it has better stealth.
But PAKFA will have better maneuverability & indeed better avionic and situation awareness compare to Raptor.


Well I read somewhere that PAKFA will use plasma stealth, is ti true & can anyone exlain.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

ANPP said:


> No, Raptor was completely design for stealth. So indeed it has better stealth.
> But PAKFA will have better maneuverability & indeed better avionic and situation awareness compare to Raptor.
> 
> 
> Well I read somewhere that PAKFA will use plasma stealth, is ti true & can anyone exlain.



plasma stealth is still in preliminary testing stage only and will take a long long time if it ever gets operational.


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## gambit

Jayanta said:


> Can anybody say whether the FGFA will be better than the mighty F-22
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrwwtq8gnww


That video has been debunked a long time ago and many times over here.


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## Sergi

The main advantage of F-22 is its ability to hit the targets before they can see it. What if some new a/c manage to achieve certain degree of stealth ( or say F-15 ) and come in WVR rage if F-22. Will it( f-22) be still superior ??? @gambit @sancho @Oscar


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## gambit

ANPP said:


> But PAKFA will have better maneuverability & indeed better avionic and situation awareness compare to Raptor.


That is questionable at best.



ANPP said:


> Well I read somewhere that PAKFA will use plasma stealth, is ti true & can anyone exlain.


There are a lot of speculations about 'plasma stealth'. Most of them nonsensical and practically defy the laws of physics. The most popular one is that the aircraft would be enveloped in a cloud/shield of plasma. Kinda funny on how this could be maintained in flight.

The most technically plausible explanation is that of the plasma antenna...

Plasma antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> A plasma antenna is a type of radio antenna currently in development in which plasma is used instead of the metal elements of a traditional antenna. *A plasma antenna can be used for both transmission and reception.* Although plasma antennas have only become practical in recent years, the idea is not new; a patent for an antenna using the concept was granted to J Hettinger in 1919.


An array of conformal plasma antenna throughout the aircraft's outer surface would absorb any impinging radar signals of any freq, amplitude, and pulse characteristics -- *COMPLETELY*. The aircraft does not have to be covered in antennas. They just need to be formed and arrayed at strategic locations on the body and with no less precision than 'stealth' body shaping itself. If one antenna received a portion of the impinging radar signal at any spot, two or more plasma antennas in the local area will be needed to receive the rest of the beam and whatever leftover will be too weak to be of any value to the seeking radar. That is the design of 'plasma stealth'.

Keep in mind that if this kind of information is publicly available, what do you think we are working on?



Sergi said:


> The main advantage of F-22 is its ability to hit the targets before they can see it. What if some new a/c manage to achieve certain degree of stealth ( or say F-15 ) and come in WVR rage if F-22. Will it( f-22) be still superior ??? @gambit @sancho @Oscar


Yes...

http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041725


> "The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, *even when I can see it through the canopy*," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."


So according to personal testimonies, even within visual range, the Raptor can still present an extremely difficult radar lock target.

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## SQ8

Sergi said:


> The main advantage of F-22 is its ability to hit the targets before they can see it. What if some new a/c manage to achieve certain degree of stealth ( or say F-15 ) and come in WVR rage if F-22. Will it( f-22) be still superior ??? @gambit @sancho @Oscar



If you can sift through the reports all over the internet.. regarding the dogfights between the F-22 and EF.. it seems that the EF and F-22 were quite evenly matched in WVR. Specifically due to the fact that neither employed a HOBS system..the turning performance of both aircraft are close.

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## ANPP

Agnostic_Indian said:


> plasma stealth is still in preliminary testing stage only and will take a long long time if it ever gets operational.



Source is pretty much trustworthy.



Sergi said:


> The main advantage of F-22 is its ability to hit the targets before they can see it. What if some new a/c manage to achieve certain degree of stealth ( or say F-15 ) and come in WVR rage if F-22. Will it( f-22) be still superior ??? @gambit @sancho @Oscar



Raptor's maneuverability is also undoubted for now. It indeed also have advantage in WVR fight against fighter like F15. Against PAKFA.....................it will be pretty interesting.....


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## sancho

gambit said:


> So according to personal testimonies, even within visual range, the Raptor can still present an extremely difficult radar lock target.



That's your conclusion, not what he said! If we talk about dogfights with guns only, an F15 won't be a match for the F22, but try the same with EF or Rafale and things get different. Increase is to IR missiles and HMS, both not available for the F22 at the moment and things get pretty bad!
The main advantage of the F22 is stealth and it is most likely the best available fighter in this regard. It also will be far superior in terms of maneuverability compared to most legacy fighter designs, but WVR with modern fighter designs and capabilities is something that the F22 don't wants for sure. One reason why the coming upgrades are important to maintain it's edge!




Oscar said:


> Specifically due to the fact that neither employed a HOBS system..the turning performance of both aircraft are close.



The EF had HMS and even if simulated, they must have simulated the use of IRIS-T.

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/df_3029_neuburg_18-07-12.jpg

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/df_3030_neuburg_18-07-12.jpg

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## ANPP

gambit said:


> That is questionable at best.



Better maneuverability was claimed by Sukhio. On Avionic front, what I think.............Raptor also have better avionics, but now bez they stop production, no upgraded version..........thats why I thought about better avionics.....................you know Raptor still dont have IRST, which will be important assest for fighter as low RCS of new fighters.




> There are a lot of speculations about 'plasma stealth'. Most of them nonsensical and practically defy the laws of physics. The most popular one is that the aircraft would be enveloped in a cloud/shield of plasma. Kinda funny on how this could be maintained in flight.
> 
> The most technically plausible explanation is that of the plasma antenna...
> 
> Plasma antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Keep in mind that if this kind of information is publicly available, what do you think we are working on?



Really not............
They dont need to open it for whole fight, rather than just emphasis on short time interval.......i.e. use it like a counter measure........when fighter got missile lock. Also it can be used for to give false location of fighter for several seconds which is enough to confuse the enemy and gain relative advantages.

That tech will not come in initial fighters which will produced before 2017. While I also have doubt that Russia will give that tech to IAF........

So far on plasma stealth...........
Lockheed Martin demo it in F15,
Dassault & Thales demo it in Mirage 2000,
Sukhoi test it in Su27.


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## Sergi

Oscar said:


> If you can sift through the reports all over the internet.. regarding the dogfights between the F-22 and EF.. it seems that the EF and F-22 were quite evenly matched in WVR. Specifically due to the fact that neither employed a HOBS system..the turning performance of both aircraft are close.



A direct answer please. Yes or NO


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## gambit

sancho said:


> That's your conclusion, not what he said!


It is what he said. Not so much in those words, but the meaning was clear.



sancho said:


> If we talk about dogfights with guns only, an F15 won't be a match for the F22, but try the same with EF or Rafale and things get different.


Ever seen the HUD in guns? Plenty of them in Youtube. See those lines and box tracking the target?

F-16 Dogfight Over the Aegean - YouTube

Those came from radar, so even with guns only, radar information is still vital in helping the pilot on where to aim, whether it is missile or not. So within visual range, if the Raptor proved to be difficult regarding radar lock for missiles, it will be the same for guns.



sancho said:


> Increase is to IR missiles and HMS, both not available for the F22 at the moment and things get pretty bad!


That is why we have flares.



sancho said:


> The main advantage of the F22 is stealth and it is most likely the best available fighter in this regard. It also will be far superior in terms of maneuverability compared to most legacy fighter designs, *but WVR with modern fighter designs and capabilities is something that the F22 don't wants for sure.* One reason why the coming upgrades are important to maintain it's edge!


That is a generalized statement that is applicable to all. No one wants to be in that situation.


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## sancho

gambit said:


> It is what he said. Not so much in those words, but the meaning was clear.



As I said that's your conclusion, but he don't specify which weaponsystem he means, nor how the F22 denies it, because he can also mean that the F22 was too maneuverable to get in position to put a weaponsystem on it. That's exactly what happend during the dogfights of the Rafale with the F22, because it wasn't able to outturn the Raptor and didn't get a lock. The difference was, the Rafale was maneuverable enough to not get killed either (at least most of the time), while legacay fighters like the teens (especially flown by exchange pilots) don't hold their own anymore against modern high maneuverable fighters. 




gambit said:


> Ever seen the HUD in guns? Plenty of them in Youtube. See those lines and box tracking the target?



Yeah, like those of the F22 in the Rafale HUD



gambit said:


> Those came from radar, so even with guns only, radar information is still vital in helping the pilot on where to aim, whether it is missile or not.



Which again might be the case for US legacy fighters which are dependent on radar only, but not for modern fighters with advanced EW sensors, or IRST...Rafale for instance can provide tracking data to it's weapon systems gathered by FSO and SPECTRA, without the need of the radar. 
So claiming F22 is not detectable even in close distance, based on vague statements of an exchange pilot includes a lot of speculation.



gambit said:


> That is why we have flares.







gambit said:


> That is a generalized statement that is applicable to all. No one wants to be in that situation.



No it's not, it makes clear that the F22 will have more problems against modern fighter designs, or techs compared to legacy fighters and that the advantage then will remain to BVR only. 


Btw, the latest EF Magazin has some interesting remarks and infos about the Red Flag combats against the F22. 

The combats took the current limitations of the F22 to account and were not done at maximum altitude. 
The Germans said, that the US pilots were impressed and didn't expected the EF to turn that aggressively, something that was reported by US pilots quiet often about the Eurocanards. They also said that the F22 looses too much energy at slow speeds and made an interesting comparison about it's combat capability! 
According to them the Raptor is like a sniper, that don't want to be seen and kills at long range, but still carries a knife for close combats. However, that this is not the area he wants to end up and if that happens, he / the Raptor might have done something wrong.
Of course said with much pride of the results and even in close combats the F22 should remain superior against 90% of current generation fighters, but not entirely wrong either.

In future stealth fighters will meet stealth fighters, which deletes the BVR advantage to a big extend and makes close combats more interesting again. That will be an area where Pak Fa / FGFA might have an edge, thanks to the aim of high flight performance and maneuverability, modern passive sensors and at least upgraded WVR missiles.

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## Pfpilot

sancho said:


> In future stealth fighters will meet stealth fighters, which deletes the BVR advantage to a big extend and makes close combats more interesting again. That will be an area where Pak Fa / FGFA might have an edge, thanks to the aim of high flight performance and maneuverability, modern passive sensors and at least upgraded WVR missiles.



For the Pak-Fa to stand a chance, doesn't it require a massive leap of faith in regards to low observably? Legacy fighters maybe outmatched by the Russian aircraft, but it will find itself in the same situation an f-16 or even mig-21 would. That maybe an exaggeration, but it doesn't change the scenario of the f-22 being virtually invisible and picking and choosing when and where to fight.

Where real combat differs from mock dogfights is the nonexistence of any kind of rules. F-22s are likely to maintain a significant edge in low observability and will not engage the enemy until they have stacked the odds in their own favor. So while a mig-21 is nothing compared to the Pak-Fa, both will be detected and engaged without having seen the threat coming.

It can logically be argued that the Pak-Fa will reduce the gap in realm of stealth. But I'd personally be very uncomfortable proclaiming that a nation short on money and working on its first stealth aircraft will be able to match the LO characteristics the Americans have been working on since "Have Blue". So if the Pak-Fa reduces this wide gulf but still falls short, even by a little bit, then it will find itself in the same disadvantaged position of legacy aircraft. That really is half the battle, and the f-22 will have won it virtually everytime.


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## sancho

Pfpilot said:


> For the Pak-Fa to stand a chance, doesn't it require a massive leap of faith in regards to low observably?



Depends on what you base your opinion on:



> but I'd personally be very uncomfortable proclaiming that a nation short on money and working on its first stealth aircraft will be able to match the LO characteristics the Americans have been working on since "Have Blue"



If that is the base, you basically judge the fighter by your believe about Russia and not on what we have seen or heared about the fighter so far.

We know that the T50 has the same stealth shapings and internal weapon carriage capability as any stealth fighter, the only part that is not shaped so far and that the Russians don't even hide, is the engine covering, because we all know that the current engines won't be the once used in the serial production version.
We also know that the current prototypes don't use any RAM coatings or materials so far, because all they do is general flight and systems testing at this stage. We know that several sawtooth patterns are available around the airframe, again similar to all stealth fighters around the world.
So with all that in mind, there is hardly any doubt possible to say that the "T50" prototype is clearly a stealth design with similar stealth LO characteristics as other stealth fighters. And that alone is impressive, for the reasons you even mentioned, but what many people forget is, that the stealth design is only one part of beeing a 5th generation fighter, but there is much more about it!

Here is an edited Eurofighter magazin checklist to point it out:








As you can see, even from what we know so far, the final Pak Fa will offer anything a 5th generation fighter needs according to western standards and when you look closer, you will even see that it sets new bars in this generation!
Be it speed, agility, high TWRs and wingloadings at least comparable to F22s, but what is more interesting is the ammount and the capability of active and passive sensors. High power long range AESA radar with side arrays, to provide the longest detection range and widest FOV of any 5th gen fighters. L-Band AESA arrays, IRST, 360° IR sensors, to further improve the detection capabilities in active and passive areas.

So even if we assume the F22 might have a slightly lower RCS, it might not have an a clear advantage, since the latter has the better detection capabilities. The correct comparision to the current generation would be, F18SH vs Su 35. The earlier with slight RCS advantages, but the latter has a clear advantage in active and passive detection, so who will detect whom first? 
Add various datalinks, satcom capabilities, the ammount of infos the sensor fusion might offer and you have a highly capable NG plattform in all regards!

It is true that the fall of the Soviet Union was a blow for the Russians and that they took long time to recover, but they didn't wasted the time and further developed their own capabilities wrt radar, passive sensors and flight performance (just look at the combination of movable LERX, all moving vertical tail and TVNs during flight maneuvers and tell me 1 other fighter that has similar capabilities combined), but also watched closely what the others developed in the meantime, to develop their own ways for similar capabilities.
That's why underestimating Russia is a big mistake!

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## sancho

An older report from 2010, but still interesting. Turn on the subtitels!

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## Srinivas

Two PAK-FA's flying together

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## Black Widow

I think no Indian are claiming PAK-FA better than F22 or F35, But one thing we are sure that it will be one of the best 5th Gen machine...

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## Sergi

Black Widow said:


> I think no Indian are claiming PAK-FA better than F22 or F35, But one thing we are sure that it will be one of the best 5th Gen machine...



Well I guess only difference of opinion here is on F-22. Most of here agree it will be better than F-35 if it delivers what it promised.


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## anant_s

> The Russian Air Force will start receiving the prospective airborne complex of frontline aviation (PAK FA), known also as the Russian fifth-generation fighter, in 2015-2016, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said.
> 
> &#8220;We have flying prototypes, which can so far be called the first-generation PAK FA. There was a long-range flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur to Zhukovsky outside Moscow recently. This is already reality,&#8221; Rogozin said.
> The fighter will acquire &#8220;special superiority qualities when a new engine is launched,&#8221; he said.
> 
> &#8220;The main work is concentrated now on the engine and weapons. We expect supplies to start in 2015-2016,&#8221; Rogozin said.
> 
> It was reported earlier that the construction of the fifth-generation fighter is part of a program for rearming the Russian armed forces.
> 
> Specialists are of the view that the Russian fifth-generation fighter developed by the Sukhoi company is fully meeting the planned performance parameters during the ongoing flight tests.
> 
> Compared to fighters of previous generations, the PAK FA boasts a number of unique features, combining the functions as an attack plane and a fighter.
> 
> The aircraft has an unusually low level of radar, optical, and infrared visibility, which should significantly improve its combat efficiency in attacking both aerial and ground-based targets at any time of day and in any weather, according to its designers.



Russian Air Force to receive 5 generation fighter in 2015-2016 &#8211; Rogozin | idrw.org

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## S-DUCT



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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


>



Interesting, fitted with an external pylon.

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## Jayanta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLM07wSZjdo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf2sDrAWqe0

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## Sergi

Didn't know already posted or Not. A nice read though

Air Combat: Russia?s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35

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## EzioAltaïr

sancho said:


> Interesting, fitted with an external pylon.



Do stealth planes put pylons on when stealth is less important than payload?


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## kurup

EzioAltaïr;4067397 said:


> Do stealth planes put pylons on when stealth is less important than payload?



Depends upon the mission profile , I think.

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## sancho

EzioAltaïr;4067397 said:


> Do stealth planes put pylons on when stealth is less important than payload?



Yes, but it also depends on the payload. If more range or endurance are needed, one can fit additional fuel tanks to the wings, like kurup showed, but also if the weapons that must be carried are too big for the internal weapon bays, like cruise missiles.

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## sancho

*051*










*053*

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## sancho

> To see first means to win



http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to26.pdf


Report about Pak Fas AESA radar (page 13 onwards)!

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## scarcry

sorry to pop the bubble but...F-22 Raptor versus Sukhoi PAK-FA - Aircraft Wiki

in reality F22>PAKFA>F35>J20


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## S-DUCT

*T-50 04*

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## UKBengali

scarcry said:


> sorry to pop the bubble but...F-22 Raptor versus Sukhoi PAK-FA - Aircraft Wiki
> 
> in reality F22>PAKFA>F35>J20




Can we please have some analysis as to why this order was chosen with some detailed technical specs, reputable citations and logic?

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## S-DUCT

@sancho
why T-50 04 has 'danger radiation' signs on the tailboom ,is it going to have radar there?

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## scarcry

Karlo kopp too pro russia. Aboulafia too pro US. This I found to be best analysis of f22 vs pakfa. F35 has best sensor fusion and maneuverability equal to or better than EF2000 IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics

J20 ...... http://defensetech.org/2012/04/03/china-has-a-second-j-20-stealth-fighter/

Don't count AMCA yet!


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## Agnostic_Indian

S-DUCT said:


> @sancho
> why T-50 04 has 'danger radiation' signs on the tailboom ,is it going to have radar there?



most probably there is a radar.

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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> @sancho
> why T-50 04 has 'danger radiation' signs on the tailboom ,is it going to have radar there?



Interesting, radar was rumored, but most people said that there wouldn't be enough space left, since it also houses IR sensors and the brake parachute. Will be interesting to see more reports on this.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Interesting, radar was rumored, but most people said that there wouldn't be enough space left, since it also houses IR sensors and the brake parachute. Will be interesting to see more reports on this.



I thought a rear-facing radar was always the plan, The Su-30MKI also has a NO12 rearward facing radar which is housed in the same place- the end of the center section spine.


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## DARKY

Tail Radar was always in the plan... The Indian version might have a few more radars on wings and other places in different bands to provide almost 360 degree coverage of the space around the plane.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I thought a rear-facing radar was always the plan, The Su-30MKI also has a NO12 rearward facing radar which is housed in the same place- the end of the center section spine.



From Indian sources you always heared about 360° passive surveillance, but not active and NO12 is just an old speculation, because it was developed for Flankers but never was confirmed and is actually doubtful.
For Pak Fa / FGFA front, side and L-Band arrays in the wingroots were clear, rearfacing radar only speculated.

Examples for radars and radar detection:

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## sancho

More recent pics:

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## indian_foxhound

@sancho @Abingdonboy can you tell me, why russian dont cover engine?


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## sancho

indian_foxhound said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy can you tell me, why russian dont cover engine?



It's still only a prototype version with stopgap engines, the later versions (especially FGFA) will come with different engines, coverings and most likely also different nozzles.

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## indian_foxhound

sancho said:


> It's still only a prototype version with stopgap engines, the later versions (especially FGFA) will come with different engines, coverings and most likely also different nozzles.



But generally why dont the cover it like su27 su30 su33 su35 all these jets engine are uncovered. its a treat to i-missilez...
thanks for this info sir


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## sancho

indian_foxhound said:


> But generally why dont the cover it like su27 su30 su33 su35 all these jets engine are uncovered. its a treat to i-missilez...
> thanks for this info sir



Not sure what you mean, they are not differently covered as other similar gen fighters

http://www.mrprophead.com/Navy/f18f14.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15c-dfst9011899.jpg


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## godofwar

For India, I don't think it matters if Pak-Fa is better than F-22 or not.What India wants from Pak-Fa is to deter China and intimidate Pakistan.Something is easily capable of doing imo.


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## S-DUCT

Interview with General Designer of NPO "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin 
Ð¡ÑÑÐ°Ð½Ð°, ÑÐ¾Ð·Ð´Ð°Ð²ÑÐ°Ñ Ð»ÑÑÑÐ¸Ðµ Ð´Ð²Ð¸Ð³Ð°ÑÐµÐ»Ð¸, Ð±ÑÐ´ÐµÑ Ð¸Ð¼ÐµÑÑ Ð»ÑÑÑÐ¸Ðµ ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð»ÐµÑÑ - Ð³ÐµÐ½ÐµÑÐ°Ð»ÑÐ½ÑÐ¹ ÐºÐ¾Ð½ÑÑÑÑÐºÑÐ¾Ñ ÐÐÐ "Ð¡Ð°ÑÑÑÐ½" Ð®ÑÐ¸Ð¹ Ð¨Ð¼Ð¾ÑÐ¸Ð½ / ÐÐ²Ð¸Ð°ÐÐ¾ÑÑ.ÐÐ°Ð¹Ð´Ð¶ÐµÑÑ



> *You mentioned earlier the engine for future aviation complex tactical aircraft. I understand that the issue is sensitive in terms of technical solutions and is reluctant to give the designers comments on this account. One wrong word can be said about many professionals who do not want to report a new product. Still, a few words on the participation of the "Saturn" in the project.*
> 
> - In the new projects, "Saturn" is actively working on a second stage engine for the PAK FA. Although we present the ODC Division civil engines, "Saturn" did not terminate in cooperation with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. "A.M.Lyulki" work on the engine. From 2006 to the present in the KB was created significant technological advance over the engine of the second stage for the PAK FA. This has allowed this year to reach an agreement with the leadership of military engines division that "Saturn" will be responsible for the high-pressure compressor and the high pressure turbine. These nodes are actually the heart of aviation engine. *Achieve just such a solution was possible thanks to the fact that you have already created a demonstrator engine components, which fully meets the specs. We have experimentally confirmed it. I can say honestly and calmly, that today all the critical decisions that need to be tested experimentally for the engine tested*. And the engine will be a target date by the competent organization of labor.
> 
> - *You said that the aircraft engine is one of the most difficult and perhaps the most difficult in engineering terms the product. What is the difficulty?*
> 
> - Aircraft engine - is a heat engine. In it, the higher the temperature of combustion, the higher the compression ratio of the compressor, the higher the efficiency. For these numbers to improve, you need heavy-duty, ultra-light, heat-resistant materials and alloys that can withstand high temperature and pressure. Suffice it to say that the temperature at the outlet of the combustion chamber may exceed 2,000 degrees. The turbine rotates at a rate of tens of thousands of revolutions per minute. Such temperatures and such speed to withstand turbine parts - wheels and turbine blades. Tear off one of the blades when the engine is under the wing of the plane in the air, and the flight may stop ... To avoid this, we need modern materials technology, which in nature and technology did not previously exist, which do not yet have names. CB now getting ready to offer not only new modifications and improvements have already mastered the engine, and innovative solutions to the very design of gas turbine engine.
> 
> Forming a technological advance, we first of all, are working to create high-temperature materials. "Saturn" today - one of the few organizations which, besides the use of materials on the market, is developing a high-temperature materials that can operate at gas temperatures up to 2050 degrees Kelvin. There are several patented "Saturn" alloys, which allows for their implementation to raise the temperature before the turbine more than 100 degrees. This is in fact already a revolution in engine. No new high-temperature alloys can not create a new generation of engines. This, in turn, requires new technologies, new equipment. New grade need not in itself, but as a material to create complex three-dimensional parts such as cooling the turbine blades. Turbine blade - a very important detail, which has a very complex three-dimensional surface, not only outside but inside in order to keep it running. It is no accident aircraft engine - "flaming engine" - is compared to the well-known anthem aviators with the human heart.



credit:Austin @ Keypubforums.

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho : what will be the better option for IN ??? FGFA or AMCA ??? Assuming everything promised as of now comes true.



Discussions about this might fit here better...

...from what we know so far, I think by capability an N-FGFA would be a perfect carrier, since it offers very long range and endurance, without the need to refuel, all of it internally and we see at the F22 currently what happens when you calculate the internal fuel too limited. The wide field of view of it's radar arrays makes it more to a mini AWACS that what had been speculated about MKI in the past, since it will have way more detection range, to nearly 360°, advanced passive sensors and datalinks to divert this data to other aircrafts too.
However, for IN a N-AMCA might be the more suitable fighter, since IAC 2 will not be comparable to USNs Supercarriers in size, which makes the space for aircrafts limited. Also IN wants CATOBAR carriers, while RuN might remain with STOBAR carriers and that makes a joined naval design impossible. Not to mention that having Indian radar, engines and other systems might be prefered, compared to the Russian counterparts in FGFA, although they are more capable.
So I do expect the AMCA to come to IN, but sadly ADA/DRDO seems not to have learned from N-LCA program, otherwise they would make a naval fighter and re-design it later for IAF, if they want it, because that's the much easier and more effective way to develop a CATOBAR carrier fighter (Rafale M => Rafale C/B vs EF => Sea Typhoon).

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## gambit

sancho said:


>


That is a highly misleading illustration.

For any antenna/array, true sweep capability is never the same as physical dimension.






For an ESA, individual T/R elements are excited and precisely modulated.

A beam is formed based upon the 'wave superposition' principle. As the beam sweeps towards one side, the main lobe begins to collide with the smaller side lobes who have nowhere to go. If the main beam continues to travels, both main and side lobes will begins to compress into each other. Interference will develop and contamination of the main lobe will occur.

So the reality is that if an array is 180 deg, maximum effective sweep capability is about 120 deg.

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## S-DUCT

Ð*Ð¾ÑÑÐ¸Ð¹ÑÐºÐ¸Ðµ ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð»ÐµÑÑ Ð±ÑÐ´ÑÑ ÑÑÑÐ¾Ð¸ÑÑ Ð¸Ð· ÑÐ½Ð¸ÐºÐ°Ð»ÑÐ½ÑÑ Ð¼Ð°ÑÐµÑÐ¸Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð² / ÐÐ²Ð¸Ð°ÐÐ¾ÑÑ.ÐÐ°Ð¹Ð´Ð¶ÐµÑÑ


> *RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT WILL BE BUILT OUT OF UNIQUE MATERIALS*
> 
> The head of the United Aircraft Corporation Mikhail Pogosyan sure that the domestic aviation can compete on the world market, the President of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Mikhail Pogosyan announced that all future domestic aircraft will be actively used composite materials. According to him, for example, a passenger MS -21 wings designed on the basis of composites. "They are sometimes called black color carbon fiber, which is the foundation of this synthetic material. To aircraft manufacturers have not experienced problems with the new materials, and of the highest quality, we are building two plants" AeroComposite "in Ulyanovsk and Kazan," - said in an interview to "Rossiyskaya newspaper "Pogosyan. According to him, the assembly of the first composite wing of the MC-21 is planned in the next year. "By the way, the main elements of the wing for the aircraft will be made &#8203;&#8203;on a fundamentally new, so-called infuznym technologies", - said the head of the KLA. According to experts, the main difference between composite materials - the presence of the reinforcing elements: yarns, fibers or flakes of more durable materials. Combining volume of components can be produced with materials necessary values &#8203;&#8203;of strength, resilience, resistance to high temperatures and so on. Production technology elements of the wing, fuselage and other structures made &#8203;&#8203;of composite materials are currently considered among the best in the world aviation industry. The experts added: "black wing" provides significant gains in aircraft weight, improves aerodynamics, which will make flying more efficient. Responding to a question on what output is needed to aviation industry has become a profitable industry in our country, Mikhail Pogosyan, in particular, noted that "we must have a production capacity of the industry is not less than three hundred billion rubles a year." "This is our plank. On it, we have to get out in 2015. This year we plan to enter the 220-230 billion. Next year - at 260-270 billion, and since 2015 have to operate at a profit," - said Pogosyan. According to him, the Russian ships can be quite competitive. "We are monitoring world trends and try to be at a high level" - confirmed the head Aircraft Corporation. He also assured that in the domestic aviation is now being actively implemented the most advanced technology. *For example, the president of the KLA, "one of the basic requirements for a fifth generation fighter, which distinguishes them from the fourth - a low level of visibility." "So we try different spraying and coating, reducing the visibility of aircraft systems, including gold,"* - said the head of the United Aircraft Corporation. He also said that the fifth-generation fighter, which will be established on the basis of test samples PAK FA will be really embodies "the most advanced technology." "It will be really disruptive plane" - not without pride, said Mikhail Pogosyan. recall, the newest Russian fighter Su-35 will be demonstrated for the first time abroad - at the 50th Air Show at Le Bourget (France). Aviation Salon will be held in June this year. On this day, April 5, the official representative of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Boris Krylov. According to him, "the KLA in Paris will present two combat aircraft: Yak-130 and Su-35, previously had never been shown abroad." "It will be a foreign prime minister" - said Krylov. He also noted that these aircraft will take part in the flying program of exhibitions.
> Credit: Austin @ keypub


So Golden canopy is on the way. .


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## sancho

gambit said:


> So the reality is that if an array is 180 deg, maximum effective sweep capability *is about 120 deg*.



That's what it shows! The side arrays most likely will have a 120° FOV, which is overlapping to the frontal area with the nose array, while won't be able to detect targets directly behind it. That's why the F35 in the picture will only be detected by the right Pak Fa, but not by the left one.


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## 1000VA



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## S-DUCT

Interview:General designer "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin
ÐÐµÐ½ÐºÐ¾Ð½ÑÑÑÑÐºÑÐ¾Ñ ÐÐÐ "Ð¡Ð°ÑÑÑÐ½" Ð®ÑÐ¸Ð¹ Ð¨Ð¼Ð¾ÑÐ¸Ð½: "ÐÐ²Ð¸Ð³Ð°ÑÐµÐ»Ñ Ð²ÑÐ¾ÑÐ¾Ð³Ð¾ ÑÑÐ°Ð¿Ð° Ð¿Ð¾Ð´Ð°ÑÐ¸Ñ ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð»ÐµÑÑ Ð¿ÑÑÐ¾Ð³Ð¾ Ð¿Ð¾ÐºÐ¾Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ð²ÑÑ Ð¶Ð¸Ð·Ð½Ñ" / ÐÐ²Ð¸Ð°ÐÐ¾ÑÑ.ÐÐ°Ð¹Ð´Ð¶ÐµÑÑ(Use google translate)



> One of the biggest challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine is a development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn."
> 
> About that, at what stage is the creation of the engine, which features the new aircraft will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN" chief designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN.
> 
> - *Yuri, tell us what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features?*
> 
> - The plane of the fifth generation T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which would make it highly maneuverable, fast, cost-effective and able to withstand such competitors as American F-22 and F-35.
> 
> Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.
> 
> - *What units and aggregates of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the greatest challenge for the engineers?
> *
> - In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. We were asked to make a turbine operating at this level of temperature at which the metal nickel alloys just melted. This work was successful.
> 
> The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.
> 
> Solving these and other problems, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance, which will be the basis for a new family of engines. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.
> 
> - *What structural materials preferred for a new engine?*
> 
> - No of new materials is impossible to provide the characteristics that we make to the new generation of CCD. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM).
> 
> First of all, it is, of course, high-temperature nickel alloys spade. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It is a complex spatial structure, which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.
> 
> There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We can offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures.
> 
> Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA used composites that are based not only on the polymer matrix to the cold part, and parts by the high-temperature compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough.
> 
> -* Do not forget that all new and modern with the time expires. Is there a possibility of the engine created for modernization?*
> 
> - Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe 50 years.
> 
> Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.
> 
> - H*ow will affect the installation of new engines for flight characteristics of fifth generation fighter? Feel a difference pilot peresevshy the plane with the engine of the first stage on the plane with the engine of the second stage?*
> 
> - The new engine is fundamentally different from the previous product of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. The plane with the new engine will be more docile and can quickly react to the pilot. In fact,
> 
> - *Yuri, we know that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes?
> *
> Now prototype completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In essence, this is the result of a deep family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today the Su-27.
> 
> Certainly, it's a great engine, which is a best seller and is built on the fundamental principles and basic ideas of the design office Arkhip Cradles. But this is still the engine stage 4 + +.


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## S-DUCT

Update on FGFA.
The Contract to Develop a Sketch and Technical Project of the Russian-Indian 5th-Generation Fighter Was Completed

(Source: Sukhoi Company JSC; issued April 10, 2013)

MOSCOW --- *The contract to develop a sketch and technical project of the Russian-Indian perspective multi-functional 5th-generation fighter (PMI/FGFA) was completed. The fighter design was fully developed.* 

*Both parties have agreed upon on the amount and division of work during the research and development (R&D) stage. A contract for the R&D is being prepared. It is to be signed this year. *

The agreement on the joint development and production of the 5th-generation fighter aircraft was signed on October 18, 2007 in Moscow at the 7th Session of the joint Russian-Indian Intergovernmental Commission on Military and Technical Cooperation. It is the largest joint project of the Russian-Indian military and technical cooperation. 

In December 2010, Rosoboronexport, Sukhoi Company and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract to develop a sketch and technical project of the fighter. In the course of the first stage of the project the Russian side has trained Indian professionals, provided them with the original data and the software to create a single working environment. 

*The Indian working group of experts has been working in Russia since January 2012 and a group of Russian specialists in India. Both parties exchange the necessary information. *

The PMI/FGFA fighter developed by the parties will have some differences from the Russian prototype due to specific requirements of the Indian Air Force. 

Sukhoi Company is currently involved in other Russian-Indian joint programs, such as modernization of the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI fighters and adaptation of the Russian-Indian air-to-ground BrahMos cruise missile to the Su-30MKI


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## SR-91

@sancho, @Abingdonboy, @S-DUCT, or anyone that knows about Pakfa/Fgfa.

India is about to spend a lot of money to build a jet that has been flying for a while now.
can u plz explain me what r&d are they taking about? Pakfa is almost a developed jet.
which design phase are talking about? The Indian Airforce Fgfa is keeping the same design as Pakfa.Only avionics are being changed to our specs.
Thx in advance


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## IND151

*India and Russia have crossed the first milestone towards the development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), completing the preliminary design of the plane.*

*&#8220;The preliminary design contract (PDC) for the Russian-Indian fifth generation aircraft has been executed,&#8221; *Russia&#8217;s Sukhoi aircraft company announced on Wednesday.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed the $295-million PDC contract in December 2010 with the Sukhoi company, which is responsible in Russia for developing the PAK-FA (perspective aviation complex-frontline aircraft), as the FGFA is called in Russia.

&#8220;The aircraft design has been fully developed,&#8221; Sukhoi said in a press release. &#8220;Both parties have agreed upon on the amount and division of work during the research and development (R&D) stage. A contract for the R&D is being prepared. It is to be signed this year.&#8221;

Under the *PDC contract *Sukhoi has also *trained Indian engineers* and* provided HAL *with the *data and software needed to create a single working environment.* A* team of HAL engineers and IAF experts *has been* working at Sukhoi&#8217;s design bureau in Moscow*, while* Russian engineers have been assigned to HAL.*

Four T-50 aircraft, the Russian prototype of the fifth generation fighter, have already performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010.

The customised FGFA version will have &#8220;some differences&#8221; from the Russian prototype to meet &#8220;specific requirements of the Indian Air Force,&#8221; the Sukhoi announcement said.

Russian experts said the FGFA will differ in &#8220;mission hardware and software,&#8221; as well as weapons. India has dropped its initial plan to redesign the single-seat T-50 into a twin-seat version.

Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne told reporters at Aero India-2013 that India is to receive from Russia the first prototype of the fifth-generation fighter in 2014, followed by two more in 2017 and 2018. The FGFA is expected to go into series production by 2022.

This is India&#8217;s biggest-ever defence project and its largest defence deal with Russia. It is expected to cost India more than $30 billion. However, last year India scaled down its original plan to acquire 214 planes by one-third, to 144 aircraft, citing time and cost factors. Russia plans to induct 60 planes at an estimated price tag of $100 million per aircraft.

http://idrw.org/?p=20800


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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> @sancho, @Abingdonboy, @S-DUCT, or anyone that knows about Pakfa/Fgfa.
> 
> India is about to spend a lot of money to build a jet that has been flying for a while now.
> can u plz explain me what r&d are they taking about? Pakfa is almost a developed jet.
> which design phase are talking about? The Indian Airforce Fgfa is keeping the same design as Pakfa.Only avionics are being changed to our specs.
> Thx in advance



The external design now will basically remain the same, since IAF seems to have changed their mind about the twin seat version, most likely to avoid cost increases and develpment delays. However, what we see today is basially a prototype for the early Pak Fa, that the Russians want to induct around 2015. The final Pak Fa & FGFA will have some design changes, which should include the type 30 engines with new TVN.
The policy change to take the single seat version too, obviously reduces the design participation of HAL, which now should be limited to the addition of new materials, coatings and cockpit designs.

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## Abingdonboy



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## SR-91

@sancho
Russians are upto their 5th prototype and by 2014 many more will roll out but the first prototype India will get in 2014,which aircraft will it based on?
Will it be based on the Russians 1st PAKFA prototype or will it be based on 8th or 9th (or whatever prototype number they will be flying by 2014)?


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## Agnostic_Indian

SR-91 said:


> @sancho
> Russians are upto their 5th prototype and by 2014 many more will roll out but the first prototype India will get in 2014,which aircraft will it based on?
> Will it be based on the Russians 1st PAKFA prototype or will it be based on 8th or 9th (or whatever prototype number they will be flying by 2014)?



should be based on latest one, going back and starting from scratch doesn't sound logical.

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## SR-91

Agnostic_Indian said:


> should be based on latest one, going back and starting from scratch doesn't sound logical.



thx.
Ok,so the Russians came out with their first prototype in 2010 and will take six years to fully develop it.
India will receive their 1st prototype in 2014 and will take another six/seven years to fully develop it.
My questions is why India needs to spend six/seven years to make minor changes like more composites,better avionics? The same amount of time the Russians took to go from prototype to production series.


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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> thx.
> Ok,so the Russians came out with their first prototype in 2010 and will take six years to fully develop it.
> India will receive their 1st prototype in 2014 and will take another six/seven years to fully develop it.
> My questions is why India needs to spend six/seven years to make minor changes like more composites,better avionics? The same amount of time the Russians took to go from prototype to production series.



Because the T50 takes certain techs from the Su 35 / 35, like the engines, while FGFA and the final Pak Fa will be completely new developed fighters, including a new engine, which is expected to be available only around the time we get our first prototype. Not sure if our first prototype will also have that engine from the start, but as Agnostic_Indian said, we will benefit from the tests and trials the Russians already do with their techs.
Personally I was suprised to hear that we also get 4 prototypes, since I didn't expected so much would be tested after we chose the single seater as well, but at the end it depends on how many changes the FGFA / final Pak Fa will have compared to T50 / first Pak Fa.

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## SR-91

then it would be safe to say,FGFA will be *radically different* than PAKFA/T50.


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## S-DUCT

http://hal-india.com/HAL-CONNECT/HAL-CONNECT-ISSUE-65.pdf
from above.


> FGFA full fledged production will commence from 2019-2020.

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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> then it would be safe to say,FGFA will be *radically different* than PAKFA/T50.



Not sure if I would call it radically, since the baseline design will remain the same except of the engines and nozzles mainly. The main difference of FGFA are internally and won't be seen just like that.

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## SR-91

sancho bro, dont you think these six/seven years India will take is a lot for these changes


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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> sancho bro, dont you think these six/seven years India will take is a lot for these changes



What changes do you have in mind?


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## SR-91

sancho said:


> What changes do you have in mind?



From top of my head,
Increase use of composites,control/mission computer,softwares,mainly codes,cockpit LCD display screen,integration of avionics bought from France and Israel,modified to operate in high altitude,integration of Astra BVR and Brahmos.
Love to get your thoughts on it!!

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## S-DUCT

SR-91 said:


> From top of my head,
> Increase use of composites,control/mission computer,softwares,mainly codes,cockpit LCD display screen,integration of avionics bought from France and Israel,modified to operate in high altitude,integration of Astra BVR and Brahmos.
> Love to get your thoughts on it!!


1+.
BTW,I thought you would mention changes in intakes,belly,nozzles.


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## selvan33

SR-91 said:


> From top of my head,
> Increase use of composites,control/mission computer,softwares,mainly codes,cockpit LCD display screen,integration of avionics bought from France and Israel,modified to operate in high altitude,integration of Astra BVR and Brahmos.
> Love to get your thoughts on it!!



Except brahmos, all the above mentioned changes by you are going to be done in FGFA. and i cant understand about which code change you are speaking. if it is AESA radar code,then most probably it will be same but mission computers and data exchange codes are always differs between every force.

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## SR-91

@S-DUCT
1+.
BTW,I thought you would mention changes in intakes,belly,nozzles.


Am i missing anything else bro





selvan33 said:


> Except brahmos, all the above mentioned changes by you are going to be done in FGFA. and i cant understand about which code change you are speaking. if it is AESA radar code,then most probably it will be same but mission computers and data exchange codes are always differs between every force.



Source codes!! @selvan33
Is there any picture with 3d nozzles for FGFA?
Dying to see those!


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## selvan33

SR-91 said:


> [MENTION=144677]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source codes!! @selvan33
> Is there any picture with 3d nozzles for FGFA?
> Dying to see those!



























*Livefist: FIRST PHOTOS: The 5th Gen Sukhoi-HAL Prospective Multirole Fighter*

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## SR-91

THAT IS ONE SEXY BEAST 
@selvan33
Bro,i meant the stealthy nozzles like F-22


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## selvan33

SR-91 said:


> THAT IS ONE SEXY BEAST
> @selvan33
> Bro,i meant the stealthy nozzles like F-22



no. it will not be like that. but engines will incorporate infrared and RCS reduction measures.

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## S-DUCT

SR-91 said:


> THAT IS ONE SEXY BEAST
> @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=143507" target="_blank">selvan33</a></u>
> Bro,i meant the stealthy nozzles like F-22


PAK-FA in current form is incomplete,I mean fully developed PAK-FA will have 5th gen. engine called Type "30".Flight tests of this engine will occur in 2015.Its similar to "ADVENT" ,the next gen. core by GE.

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## neehar

SR-91 said:


> THAT IS ONE SEXY BEAST
> @selvan33
> Bro,i meant the stealthy nozzles like F-22



we have to compromise on maneuverability if the nozzles are designed similar to f22.i dont think it has thrust vectoring.correct me if i'm wrong @sancho


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## SR-91

PAKFA will be the first 5th gen. jet with full 3d Thrust vectoring 



neehar said:


> we have to compromise on maneuverability if the nozzles are designed similar to f22.i dont think it has thrust vectoring.correct me if i'm wrong @sancho



PAKFA will be the first 5th gen. jet with full 3d Thrust vectoring


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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> From top of my head,
> Increase use of composites,control/mission computer,softwares,mainly codes,cockpit LCD display screen,integration of avionics bought from France and Israel,modified to operate in high altitude,integration of Astra BVR and Brahmos.
> Love to get your thoughts on it!!



I see, just like S-Duct I thought you mean other external changes, but yes those things you meantioned will be available in the final version for sure.
Wrt radar and mission computers, you might find this report interesting:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-85.html#post4075933



neehar said:


> we have to compromise on maneuverability if the nozzles are designed similar to f22.i dont think it has thrust vectoring.correct me if i'm wrong @sancho



No, TVC will come for sure, however the F22 has just normal 2D TVNs, while the Russians prefer 2.5 and 3D options, so it will be interesting to see if they compromise to the normal 2D version for lower signatures or not.
In terms of maneuverability and flight performance, Pak Fa / FGFA might be the new benchmark if this fighter generation.

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## neehar

sancho said:


> I see, just like S-Duct I thought you mean other external changes, but yes those things you meantioned will be available in the final version for sure.
> Wrt radar and mission computers, you might find this report interesting:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-85.html#post4075933
> 
> 
> 
> No, TVC will come for sure, however the F22 has just normal 2D TVNs, while the Russians prefer 2.5 and 3D options, so it will be interesting to see if they compromise to the normal 2D version for lower signatures or not.
> In terms of maneuverability and flight performance, Pak Fa / FGFA might be the new benchmark if this fighter generation.



i found an interesting report regarding t-50.it says that tough its rcs is a bit higher compared to f22 all the other parameters are superior to t-50 than f-35

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/russia-stealth/
A Preliminary Assessment of Specular Radar Cross Section Performance in the Sukhoi T-50 Prototype

heres from the same link
"Moreover, the T-50 will dodge certain radars better than others, according to Kopp &#8212; and U.S. sensors are among the worst at detecting the T-50&#8242;s unique shape, he contends. Kopp&#8217;s breakdown of T-50 RCS by radar type shows Chinese &#8220;counter-VLO radars,&#8221; specifically designed to spot American stealth planes, detecting the T-50 best.

@sancho the most interesting thing is they compared rcs of t-50 with j20


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## S-DUCT

neehar said:


> i found an interesting report regarding t-50.it says that tough its rcs is a bit higher compared to f22 all the other parameters are superior to t-50 than f-35
> 
> Russia's Stealth Fighter Could Match U.S. Jets, Analyst Says | Danger Room | Wired.com
> A Preliminary Assessment of Specular Radar Cross Section Performance in the Sukhoi T-50 Prototype
> 
> heres from the same link
> "Moreover, the T-50 will dodge certain radars better than others, according to Kopp * and U.S. sensors are among the worst at detecting the T-50&#8242;s unique shape*, he contends. Kopps breakdown of T-50 RCS by radar type shows Chinese counter-VLO radars, specifically designed to spot American stealth planes, detecting the T-50 best.


 @sancho:
what's the meaning of that bolded part or it's just baised kopp's assessment.


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## neehar

S-DUCT said:


> @sancho:
> what's the meaning of that bolded part or it's just baised kopp's assessment.



dont think so..t-50 is designed to evade certain frequency of radars.if u look at the second link u'll find all the experimental observations including frequencies and angles.i dont say that its 100% accurate but there must be some credibility..and the good news is they analized just 1st prototype so the actual t-50 would be much better.and fgfa would be further more..it estimated rcs to be -30dbsm i.e about 0.001m2


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## S-DUCT

neehar said:


> dont think so..t-50 is designed to evade certain frequency of radars.if u look at the second link u'll find all the experimental observations including frequencies and angles.i dont say that its 100% accurate but there must be some credibility..and the good news is they analized just *1st prototype so the actual t-50 would be much better.and fgfa would be further more..it estimated rcs to be -30dbsm i.e about 0.001m2*


.001m2 must be RCS in frontal aspect,though its avg RCS must be around .3-.4m2. @any member:
can anyone calculate avg. dB from this graph.


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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> @sancho:
> what's the meaning of that bolded part or it's just baised kopp's assessment.



I think he meant the lack of IRST in the F22 in comparision with the T50, but his articles have to be taken with cautious too.




neehar said:


> dont think so..t-50 is designed to evade certain frequency of radars.if u look at the second link u'll find all the experimental observations including frequencies and angles.i dont say that its 100% accurate but there must be some credibility..and the good news is they analized just 1st prototype so the actual t-50 would be much better.and fgfa would be further more..it estimated rcs to be -30dbsm i.e about 0.001m2



The RCS comparisions are mainly based on speculations at the moment, especially since you hardly can tell more about the T50, than about it's shappings. There are no coatings added yet and since it's only a prototype now, the final serial production version might have futher changes as well (new engines with different coverings and nozzles, shaped IRST, radar blockers or air ducts...). Still way too early to get to final conclusions on this regard, since we only see basic flight and tech testing now.

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## neehar

sancho said:


> I think he meant the lack of IRST in the F22 in comparision with the T50, but his articles have to be taken with cautious too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The RCS comparisions are mainly based on speculations at the moment, especially since you hardly can tell more about the T50, than about it's shappings. There are no coatings added yet and since it's only a prototype now, the final serial production version might have futher changes as well (new engines with different coverings and nozzles, shaped IRST, radar blockers or air ducts...). Still way too early to get to final conclusions on this regard, since we only see basic flight and tech testing now.



yes thats what i meant by my above post. i provided the link just for a rough estimation.this is the first time im studying regarding a 5th gen aircraft.and the link was quite helpful.i would appreciate if u can provide any other links.


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## whitefox011



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## sancho

neehar said:


> yes thats what i meant by my above post. i provided the link just for a rough estimation.this is the first time im studying regarding a 5th gen aircraft.and the link was quite helpful.i would appreciate if u can provide any other links.



True, his articles have certain interesting infos and gives us a better understanding of some things. 

I would highly suggest Antibody's threads about stealth or combat aircraft designs:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...ls-stealth-design-concepts-rcs-reduction.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/75408-combat-aircraft-projects-designs-index-2nd-post.html


I generally suggest to take a look at any of his info threads, since they are well sourced and informative. Also don't forget to thank him for all the research work he does!

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## neehar

sancho said:


> True, his articles have certain interesting infos and gives us a better understanding of some things.
> 
> I would highly suggest Antibody's threads about stealth or combat aircraft designs:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...ls-stealth-design-concepts-rcs-reduction.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/75408-combat-aircraft-projects-designs-index-2nd-post.html
> 
> 
> I generally suggest to take a look at any of his info threads, since they are well sourced and informative. Also don't forget to thank him for all the research work he does!



is f-35 capable of thrust vectoring with just one nozzle?also are there any advantages/disadvantages to it compared to t-50 as it is a heavy fighter compared to f-35


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## kurup

neehar said:


> is f-35 capable of thrust vectoring with just one nozzle?



No , F35 donot have thrust vectoring .

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## sancho



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## RPK

@sancho

LGB will be mounted on internal bay or in wing tip? LGB are heavier compare to Air to Air missile.


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## kurup

@sancho : Any chance that in future SFC will operate FGFA ??

A modified version with the 2 weapon bays combined into one to launch long range nuclear armed cruise missiles.

Something like this ....

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## sancho

RPK said:


> @sancho
> 
> LGB will be mounted on internal bay or in wing tip? LGB are heavier compare to Air to Air missile.



LGBs can't be carried at wingtip stations (which the T50 don't have anyway), but it is possible at the external stations they might have tested here. However, a stealth fighter is aimed to carry weapons internally whenever it can.




kurup said:


> @sancho : Any chance that in future SFC will operate FGFA ??
> 
> A modified version with the 2 weapon bays combined into two launch long range nuclear armed cruise missiles.



I'm not even sure if SFC operates any fighters at all, but FGFA and even more likely AURA will take over these roles. The weapon however might not be a cruise missile, since it will be detectable when it's launched, while the big advantage of stealth is, to get way closer to the target. Therefor it is more usefull to take a stealth aircraft and a stand off bomb kit.
Wrt the single weapon bay, I would have liked to see it too, since it would allow to carry at least a single Brahmos internally to long ranges, the problem however might be, that the dept of the bays are different. Some reports says that the front bay is deeper and could house heavier weapons, while the rear one is mainly meant for AAMs. That would make a fitting of a cruise missile impossible, unless you increase the dept of the bays down to the same level as the engine coverings, which then reduces lift again.

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## Sergi

F-22 Raptor versus Sukhoi PAK-FA - Aircraft Wiki
@sancho : what do you think of this article. Is it just me or the article is biased for obvious reasons ???


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## Wet Shirt Contest

neehar said:


> dont think so..t-50 is designed to evade certain frequency of radars.if u look at the second link u'll find all the experimental observations including frequencies and angles.i dont say that its 100% accurate but there must be some credibility..and the good news is they analized just 1st prototype so the actual t-50 would be much better.and fgfa would be further more..it estimated rcs to be -30dbsm i.e about 0.001m2



All 5th Generation Designed to deflect X or S-band, moreover the estimated RCS 0.001m2 from what range , angel ? Other than it's shape and size value of RCS depends on other multiple factors to.



Sergi said:


> F-22 Raptor versus Sukhoi PAK-FA - Aircraft Wiki
> @sancho : what do you think of this article. Is it just me or the article is biased for obvious reasons ???



Site if Not credible, baseless information he provided

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## neehar

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> All 5th Generation Designed to deflect X or S-band, moreover the estimated RCS 0.001m2 from what range , angel ? Other than it's shape and size value of RCS depends on other multiple factors to.



yes not just x band and s band t-50 is designed for several others too.they did basic experiments based on the shape and ram coatings of t-50 after its first flight at different angles and different frequencies.might not be accurate but just for an idea

A Preliminary Assessment of Specular Radar Cross Section Performance in the Sukhoi T-50 Prototype


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## Wet Shirt Contest

neehar said:


> yes not just x band and s band t-50 is designed for several others too.they did basic experiments based on the shape and ram coatings of t-50 after its first flight at different angles and different frequencies.might not be accurate but just for an idea
> 
> A Preliminary Assessment of Specular Radar Cross Section Performance in the Sukhoi T-50 Prototype



Oh it's Kopp 
Use of Physical Optic simulation and algorithm across different frequency bands to compute RCS of a complex object like aircraft, that's far from being accurate but informative enough for a defence enthusiast like you. 

Peace out

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> F-22 Raptor versus Sukhoi PAK-FA - Aircraft Wiki
> @sancho : what do you think of this article. Is it just me or the article is biased for obvious reasons ???



Yes it is, just a lot of BS on a fansite.

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## 1000VA



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## AirDefence

may be the article is old but interesting read..




Russian fifth-generation fighter jet - Sukhoi T-50. Source: ITAR-TASS
Two significant developments have stirred up the world of military aviation this year. In March, the U.S. Air Force revealed it had started work to field a new Long Range Strike Bomber by the 2020s. This will be first new American strategic bomber to be built after the Cold War.
How much the global balance of power has shifted since the Cold War days was clear when it was revealed that the aircraft the American bomber might encounter in the skies will have a large Indian signature  in more ways than one. In August, the Indian Air Force announced that India and Russia are getting set to ink the final R&D contract for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) by the end of the year or early-2013. The contract is worth more than US$ 11 billion, and according to the terms of the agreement both countries will share 50 percent of the costs.

View the infographic: Russian fifth-generation fighter jet
That the FGFA would fly was never in doubt. (To meet its air defence requirements, Russia was committed to the T-50 but as the American F-35 programme has demonstrated, having partners translates into assured orders.) The only uncertain component of the programme was the extent of Indian participation. In the past couple of years there was a lot of speculation  and derisive comments  about Indias involvement. Sceptics felt it was limited to merely offering suggestions as to what the IAF wanted  such as two seats or one  while the more charitable ones believed Indias contributions would be in avionics and software.
The IAF chiefs visit to Moscow last month finally lifted the veil of secrecy about Indias participation in the worlds most eagerly awaited fighter aircraft. It is now clear that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltds Ozar facility at Nashik in western India will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019, and they will be flown by Indian test pilots.
India moves into the big league
Related:

FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting

Fifth generation fighters provide air superiority
What defence observers have missed is that the FGFA is a quantum leap for Indias armaments industry, especially HAL. After decades of dabbling in joint production  a euphemism for screwdriver technology  Indias aerospace sector will finally step up to joint development.
This will catapult India to a new level where it will finally be able to develop advanced stealth aircraft on its own. Not even Americas leading partners in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter programme, such as Turkey or the UK, have access to such red hot technology. Instead of being a sidekick, India will be a joint partner in a leading military project.
Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to HAL. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. India will soon have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019.
An IAF official told Janes that the jointly developed aircraft draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA technology demonstrator with modifications to meet the IAF specifications, which are much more stringent.
The IAF is hopeful production fighters will roll out of the factory gates by 2022. Up to 250 of these aircraft will be inducted at an estimated cost of $35 billion. Russia will buy a similar number. While it is never easy to place a price tag on such a constantly evolving platform, the IAF estimates the cost per plane at $100 million. The total cost, including options and the value of production aircraft, will make this the biggest defence programme ever in Indias history.
Potent threat
Although the T-50s specifications remain classified, reports indicate it features advanced stealth capability and supersonic cruising speed. Here is what Air Power Australia says: The stealthy T-50, albeit in an early phase of development, is showing naked air combat power in the form of extreme plus agility and persistence that, with the addition of advanced sensors, countermeasures and weapons, will likely soundly defeat the F-22 Raptor but will certainly annihilate the F-35 and the Super Hornet.
This is an explosive statement but coming from ace aircraft experts, the FGFA portends a scary decade ahead for Western air defences and pilots.
Tuning the T-50
Clearly, the designers arent sitting idle. A series of developments suggests the FGFA has achieved irresistible propulsion. According to the website of Russias United Aircraft Group, which owns the Sukhoi bureau, the company has tested three T-50 prototypes in various modes, totalling around 180 sorties, including aerial refuelling hook-ups with a Russian Air Force Il-78 tanker, AESA radar scans, and large angle of attack and super manoeuvrability test flights.
Carlo Kopp of Air Power Australia and legendary aircraft analyst Bill Sweetman wonder whether the current T-50 represents the definitive configuration. Today's round nozzles and the curvature of the aft nacelles are not at first glance stealth-optimised, and the engine is not fully masked head-on by the inlet duct, they write in an article in Aviation Week.
To be sure, those are exactly the areas India and Russia will be working on in the months and years ahead. The IAF, for instance, has specified more than 40 improvements to the design following its observation of flying trials.
For instance, in the early stages of the programme, the IAF was keen on a two-seater fighter bomber, and in fact indicated a requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat aircraft. But since then it has jettisoned that demand will go in for only single-seat jets now. The reason is that a second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15 percent, apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity.
Exploring exports
Unlike the dollar-guzzling F-35 which perhaps wouldnt fly without exports, the T-50 remains viable because of lower development costs and large pre-orders from Russia and India. Still exports cant hurt. According to the IAF, the broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design and development of the aircraft, its production and joint marketing to other countries.
The Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), a Moscow-based independent defence and foreign policy think-tank, says that while India will be the first FGFA export customer, Vietnam will be probably its second buyer. CAST Director Ruslan Pukhov believes every third user of the Su-27/30 family of aircraft could be a customer for the FGFA.
Russias legacy
For both Russia and India the FGFA programme will be a bold new gambit, as it will overshadow even the highly successful BrahMos missile project. For, while BrahMos is also a 50:50 India-Russia venture, it is basically Indias baby; Russia has turned down an offer to buy the missile as it has the equally capable Club.
However, the FGFA programme could be a template for further defence cooperation between India and Russia. As its economy grows, India is increasingly seeking quality armaments for its armed forces and is keen to wean itself away from imports. Russia on the other hand has the knowhow and experience to produce highly capable weapons platforms. Together, they can ensure that legacy remains intact.

Russian fifth-generation fighter jet - Sukhoi T-50. Source: ITAR-TASS
Two significant developments have stirred up the world of military aviation this year. In March, the U.S. Air Force revealed it had started work to field a new Long Range Strike Bomber by the 2020s. This will be first new American strategic bomber to be built after the Cold War.
How much the global balance of power has shifted since the Cold War days was clear when it was revealed that the aircraft the American bomber might encounter in the skies will have a large Indian signature  in more ways than one. In August, the Indian Air Force announced that India and Russia are getting set to ink the final R&D contract for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) by the end of the year or early-2013. The contract is worth more than US$ 11 billion, and according to the terms of the agreement both countries will share 50 percent of the costs.

View the infographic: Russian fifth-generation fighter jet
That the FGFA would fly was never in doubt. (To meet its air defence requirements, Russia was committed to the T-50 but as the American F-35 programme has demonstrated, having partners translates into assured orders.) The only uncertain component of the programme was the extent of Indian participation. In the past couple of years there was a lot of speculation  and derisive comments  about Indias involvement. Sceptics felt it was limited to merely offering suggestions as to what the IAF wanted  such as two seats or one  while the more charitable ones believed Indias contributions would be in avionics and software.
The IAF chiefs visit to Moscow last month finally lifted the veil of secrecy about Indias participation in the worlds most eagerly awaited fighter aircraft. It is now clear that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltds Ozar facility at Nashik in western India will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019, and they will be flown by Indian test pilots.
India moves into the big league
Related:

FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting

Fifth generation fighters provide air superiority
What defence observers have missed is that the FGFA is a quantum leap for Indias armaments industry, especially HAL. After decades of dabbling in joint production  a euphemism for screwdriver technology  Indias aerospace sector will finally step up to joint development.
This will catapult India to a new level where it will finally be able to develop advanced stealth aircraft on its own. Not even Americas leading partners in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter programme, such as Turkey or the UK, have access to such red hot technology. Instead of being a sidekick, India will be a joint partner in a leading military project.
Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to HAL. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. India will soon have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019.
An IAF official told Janes that the jointly developed aircraft draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA technology demonstrator with modifications to meet the IAF specifications, which are much more stringent.
The IAF is hopeful production fighters will roll out of the factory gates by 2022. Up to 250 of these aircraft will be inducted at an estimated cost of $35 billion. Russia will buy a similar number. While it is never easy to place a price tag on such a constantly evolving platform, the IAF estimates the cost per plane at $100 million. The total cost, including options and the value of production aircraft, will make this the biggest defence programme ever in Indias history.
Potent threat
Although the T-50s specifications remain classified, reports indicate it features advanced stealth capability and supersonic cruising speed. Here is what Air Power Australia says: The stealthy T-50, albeit in an early phase of development, is showing naked air combat power in the form of extreme plus agility and persistence that, with the addition of advanced sensors, countermeasures and weapons, will likely soundly defeat the F-22 Raptor but will certainly annihilate the F-35 and the Super Hornet.
This is an explosive statement but coming from ace aircraft experts, the FGFA portends a scary decade ahead for Western air defences and pilots.
Tuning the T-50
Clearly, the designers arent sitting idle. A series of developments suggests the FGFA has achieved irresistible propulsion. According to the website of Russias United Aircraft Group, which owns the Sukhoi bureau, the company has tested three T-50 prototypes in various modes, totalling around 180 sorties, including aerial refuelling hook-ups with a Russian Air Force Il-78 tanker, AESA radar scans, and large angle of attack and super manoeuvrability test flights.
Carlo Kopp of Air Power Australia and legendary aircraft analyst Bill Sweetman wonder whether the current T-50 represents the definitive configuration. Today's round nozzles and the curvature of the aft nacelles are not at first glance stealth-optimised, and the engine is not fully masked head-on by the inlet duct, they write in an article in Aviation Week.
To be sure, those are exactly the areas India and Russia will be working on in the months and years ahead. The IAF, for instance, has specified more than 40 improvements to the design following its observation of flying trials.
For instance, in the early stages of the programme, the IAF was keen on a two-seater fighter bomber, and in fact indicated a requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat aircraft. But since then it has jettisoned that demand will go in for only single-seat jets now. The reason is that a second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15 percent, apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity.
Exploring exports
Unlike the dollar-guzzling F-35 which perhaps wouldnt fly without exports, the T-50 remains viable because of lower development costs and large pre-orders from Russia and India. Still exports cant hurt. According to the IAF, the broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design and development of the aircraft, its production and joint marketing to other countries.
The Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), a Moscow-based independent defence and foreign policy think-tank, says that while India will be the first FGFA export customer, Vietnam will be probably its second buyer. CAST Director Ruslan Pukhov believes every third user of the Su-27/30 family of aircraft could be a customer for the FGFA.
Russias legacy
For both Russia and India the FGFA programme will be a bold new gambit, as it will overshadow even the highly successful BrahMos missile project. For, while BrahMos is also a 50:50 India-Russia venture, it is basically Indias baby; Russia has turned down an offer to buy the missile as it has the equally capable Club.
However, the FGFA programme could be a template for further defence cooperation between India and Russia. As its economy grows, India is increasingly seeking quality armaments for its armed forces and is keen to wean itself away from imports. Russia on the other hand has the knowhow and experience to produce highly capable weapons platforms. Together, they can ensure that legacy remains intact.

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## sancho

mrPERFECT said:


> may be the article is old but interesting read..



Can you add the source please!


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## ejaz007

*New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016 &#8211; Putin*

MOSCOW, April 25 (RIA Novosti) &#8211; Russia&#8217;s fifth-generation T-50 fighter jet will enter service with the country&#8217;s armed forces in 2016, and not 2015 as was previously announced, President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.

&#8220;The T-50 fifth generation jet should go into serial production and enter service in 2016,&#8221; Putin said at a live Q&A session with the Russian public.

The Defense Ministry had earlier said the jet would be ready in 2015.

Russia will start state flight tests of the T-50 in 2014, United Aircraft Corporation's President Mikhail Pogosyan said on Tuesday.
The T-50, also known as PAK-FA (future tactical fighter aircraft), first flew in January 2010 and was presented to the public at the Moscow Air Show in 2011.

The T-50, which will be the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a fifth-generation multirole fighter aircraft featuring elements of "stealth" technology," super-maneuverability, super-cruise capability (supersonic flight without use of afterburner), and an advanced avionics suite including an X-band active phased-array radar.

*The T-50 fifth-generation fighter*






India will also buy a fighter aircraft based on the T-50, known as the FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft).
United Aircraft Corporation is the state holding company uniting Russia's aircraft building industry including Sukhoi, a military and civil aircraft manufacturer.

New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016


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## AirDefence

sancho said:


> Can you add the source please!



FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting | Russia & India Report

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## S-DUCT



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## Abingdonboy

Anyone know if there is any likilihood for the IAF's FGFA to be fitted with the Type 30 engines with polymer composite compressor fan blades over the 117 with hollowed titanium alloy blades? It is said the Type 30 can produce greater thrust whilst offering a 30% weight saving. This seems to be an almost unbelievable claim and one that should interest the IAF greatly you'd have thought. 


@sancho

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone know if there is any likilihood for the IAF's FGFA to be fitted with the Type 30 engines with polymer composite compressor fan blades over the 117 with hollowed titanium alloy blades? It is said the Type 30 can produce greater thrust whilst offering a 30% weight saving. This seems to be an almost unbelievable claim and one that should interest the IAF greatly you'd have thought.
> 
> 
> @sancho




FGFA will only get the Type 30 engine, no other, that's one of the main points that we are waiting for. Not sure if all FGFA protypes will have it, but the final production version for sure. 
More interesting to me is, if we have any participation in the engine development, be it financial or technical. Couldn't find anything about it yet.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> FGFA will only get the Type 30 engine, no other, that's one of the main points that we are waiting for. Not sure if all FGFA protypes will have it, but the final production version for sure.
> More interesting to me is, if we have any participation in the engine development, be it financial or technical. Couldn't find anything about it yet.


Work on the TYPE 30 has been going on for a while now though so it's a bit late for India to get in on the project is it not?


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## neehar

why am i not able to see all the pics??is it my system fault or the forum's??


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Work on the TYPE 30 has been going on for a while now though so it's a bit late for India to get in on the project is it not?



We don't know anything about the work yet. Early last year if I remember correctly there were reports about Russian offering us a co-development for the engine. Of course our technical participation is not likely, but as a co-development, even if only co-funded, we would get important ToT and insight in the project, which will be very valuable for our own engine developments!

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> We don't know anything about the work yet. Early last year if I remember correctly there were reports about Russian offering us a co-development for the engine. Of course our technical participation is not likely, but as a co-development, even if only co-funded, we would get important ToT and insight in the project, which will be very valuable for our own engine developments!


Well then, if NPO are willing to give ToT India should jump in for sure, right??


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Well then, if NPO are willing to give ToT India should jump in for sure, right??



That's my point! Be it techs of the compressor blades, SC techs, or TVC techs, all important for our future developments and any bit of them would be useful.

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## S-DUCT



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## 1000VA

posted by error...


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## sancho



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## sancho



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## sancho



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## sancho



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## sancho




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## Arzamas 16

Russia&#8217;s fifth generation T-50 fighter jet through important testing stage



> The Russian Army is through with the first stage of testing of a multipurpose fifth generation T-50 fighter jet. T-50 has been through years of research and hundreds of flights. Many of the plane&#8217;s performance characteristics are still a secret. According to the designers, what is not a secret is the fact that T-50 is better in terms of basic parameters than its foreign-made equivalents.
> 
> When one sees a T-50 in the air, the first idea that occurs to one is that planes just cannot fly like this, but if the plane is manned by a seasoned pilot, it will perform no end of stunts.
> Modern-day combat planes will never again be what they used to be. Now it is a jet-fighter, an attack plane and a bomber all in one; a plane that can accomplish any mission. T-50 is a fifth generation plane, which means it is invisible to enemy radars; it means it&#8217;s the fastest plane, with the maximum speed exceeding 2,500 kilometres per hour; it means the plane is equipped with artificial intelligence (that is the aircraft thinks over and performs missions that the pilot was to take care of earlier).
> 
> According to a test pilot, Hero of Russia Sergei Bogdan, the pilot may abandon all of his controls on barely taking off, without even activating the auto-flight mode; the aircraft will never dive, but will maintain its horizontal flight. The plane may even start falling tail first, in which case it will by all means warn the pilot of the situation.
> If something happens to the pilot during the flying mission, the jet fighter will be able to return to the base and even land there on its own. It is actually quite true that the T-50 offers its pilots many things on a silver platter. One such thing is an automatic target recognizer.
> 
> The jet fighter&#8217;s cover is suggestive of a living organism; it reacts to whatever happens around due to special transmitting-receiving elements that are virtually sewn into the jet-fighter&#8217;s body. This is also known as a smart cover.
> Prior to T-50, it was the US F-22 Raptor, which was seen as the world&#8217;s smartest fifth generation jet fighter. But the Russian fighter plane is ahead of its US equivalent in several ways, namely T-50 is faster than F-22 Raptor by 500 kilometres per hour, it is lighter but can flight to greater distances. But the most important about T-50 is its equipment, which is hidden inside the aircraft. The PAK FA (another way of referring to T-50, meaning literally a &#8216;Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation&#8217;, made more than 500 flights in the years of secret testing. The designers have agreed that the flights have been normal.
> 
> The first deputy of the Chief Designer of the SUKHOI Designing Office, Mikhail Strelets, says the designers had understandably sought to attain a certain performance level, and he believes they have attained at the first stage what objectives were planned to be attained for that stage. Some flight characteristics are even better than expected, like a very good sustained supersonic cruise and super-manoeuvrability.
> The achievements are largely due to the aircraft design, namely a small fin and no angles between surfaces. The arms will be stuffed into the interior, since the air reaction during manoeuvring is lower, and it is more difficult to spot the aircraft because of its special cover.
> 
> &#8220;We can now counter any threats, posed by our potential enemies. Our airborne complex will prove in no way inferior to the fifth-generation complexes built in the United States, conversely, it will prove superior to them. This makes us feel confident of the future&#8221;, said the President of the Sukhoi Aviation Military Industrial Combine, Mikhail Pogosyan.
> 
> Before pilots actually get at the control-wheel rim of the T-50, they are through a course of training at a special simulation centre. Even the catapult system is a whole new story, taking account of the weight of a pilot, flight speed etc, to ensure that the pilot will leave the plane safely.
> Four T-50 jet fighters are already through with their test programme. Another one will be added to them by the end of the year. Batch manufacturing of T-50s is due to begin by 2015.



Russia

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## Yeti

*The jet fighter&#8217;s cover is suggestive of a living organism; it reacts to whatever happens around due to special transmitting-receiving elements that are virtually sewn into the jet-fighter&#8217;s body. This is also known as a smart cover.*

Does the Su-35 also have something similar to this? all be it perhaps not as sophisticated


*Some flight characteristics are even better than expected, like a very good sustained supersonic cruise and super-manoeuvrability.*


This is very positive just goes to show what a great design the plane is kudos to Sukhoi design bureau


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## Sergi

Few last lines of the post #1357. 


> Before pilots actually get at the control-wheel rim of the T-50, they are through a course of training at a special simulation centre. *Even the catapult system is a whole new story*, taking account of the weight of a pilot, flight speed etc, to ensure that the pilot will leave the plane safely.


 @Arzamas 16 what cataput the article is reffering to ???


@sancho


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## Roybot

Sergi said:


> Few last lines of the post #1357.
> 
> @Arzamas 16 what cataput the article is reffering to ???
> 
> 
> @sancho



Might be talking about the ejection system?

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## Sergi

Roybot said:


> Might be talking about the ejection system?



I don't think anybody will call ejection system a catapult. And the person mentioning so much about other parameters will hardly say something like that


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## Roybot

Sergi said:


> *I don't think anybody will call ejection system a catapult.* And the person mentioning so much about other parameters will hardly say something like that



Well some people do, its part of the ejection system.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/ejection-seat1.htm

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## Sergi

Roybot said:


> Well some people do, its part of the ejection system.
> 
> HowStuffWorks "How Ejection Seats Work"



I didnt knew that  thanks. 
Look like you are right


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## Dron.ru



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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone have any info on the HMDS that will be used on the PAK-FA/FGFA? I've heard the Russians are developing their own advanced HMDS otherwise it is likely India will just go for the TOPSIGHT-I or DASH-III.


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## surya kiran

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone have any info on the HMDS that will be used on the PAK-FA/FGFA? I've heard the Russians are developing their own advanced HMDS otherwise it is likely India will just go for the TOPSIGHT-I or DASH-III.



As late as 2013, there have been announcements, that, there would not be any difference in avionics, platformRussia, India Describe Next-Gen Fighter Plans | Aviation International News and hardware.


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## Abingdonboy

surya kiran said:


> As late as 2013, there have been announcements, that, there would not be any difference in avionics, platformRussia, India Describe Next-Gen Fighter Plans | Aviation International News and hardware.


That's not at all true and that's not even what your link says:




> The Indian version would use same airframe, engines and main systems, *and differ in mission hardware and software, as well as weapons nomenclature. *



Russia, India Describe Next-Gen Fighter Plans | Aviation International News


Why is the IAF insisting on the FGFA if it will be identical to the PAK-FA/T-50? It would make no sense- this article contradicts itself. The FGFA is simply a "MKIsed" version of the PAK-FA/T-50 that will have different avionics,weapons and hardware on board mate.


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## sancho



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## kurup

Sukhoi PAK-FA spin recovery footage

Check out this video of the Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA fifth-generation stealth fighter. There is some good footage of the jet undergoing flight tests--my comprehension of the Russian language is virtually non-existent, but I think the reporter is giving an overview of the jet's capabilities.






If I understood correctly--the PAK-FA has a lot of the same features that you'd find on the F-22 or F-35 like embedded antennas and sensor fusion. But the Russian aircraft seems to have automation to the point where it can land itself if the pilot is incapacitated, but that could be my misunderstanding.

If anyone speaks/understands Russian, I'm sure you'll get much more out of this than me--but cool footage nonetheless. Incidentally, some of the footage looks like spin testing, but unlike similar US testing you might see at Edwards AFB or Pax River, the Russians don't seem to use a spin-chute. 







Sukhoi PAK-FA spin recovery footage - The DEW Line

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## kurup




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## The A-5

Yeti said:


> *The jet fighters cover is suggestive of a living organism; it reacts to whatever happens around due to special transmitting-receiving elements that are virtually sewn into the jet-fighters body. This is also known as a smart cover.*



Brilliant. Is this the first jet to have such a technology?

I heard someone saying something about a "smart skin" concept for Super-MKI. Is it related to that?


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## Yeti

The A-5 said:


> Brilliant. Is this the first jet to have such a technology?
> 
> I heard someone saying something about a "smart skin" concept for Super-MKI. Is it related to that?





I think the smart skin is a sort of coating to reduce the RCS for the upgrade, this looks a bit diffrent but im not sure if the SU-35 also has something similar to this. Need to find out from Sancho and others on this matter.


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## Dron.ru



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## sancho



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## sancho

Two more pics of the T54 from this month and a nice one of the T51:

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## kurup

*101-KS-N pod being developed for the PAK-FA*

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## Arzamas 16

T-50-5 will fly very soon, before MAKS 2013 which is in August, confirmed by inside sources.



> If you can understand Russian, you would learn that PAK FA has exceeded its developers expectations in the fields of supermaneurability and supercruise speed.
> Commenting journalist has stated that PAK FA is much lighter than F-22 and its maximal speed is 500 km/h greater than F-22.
> It is unknown, what speed has he talked about, afterburned max or supercruise speed. It is possible that this is his own fake addition, but bearing in mind the official status of those video it is unlikely.
> 
> Data is short, almost none actually. However progrm-outside experts have calculated that if the PAK FA empty weight is 3 tons less than F-22, then T-50 can reach 2100 km/h supercruise speed using the current 117 engines. This is indirectly confirmed by Mikhail Pogosian. He has stated that Sukhoi company is completely satisfied with 117 engine performance and the engine completely complies all the 5-gen fighter engine requirements on thrust, specific thrust, resource and speed/altitude params.
> 
> *Also guys from KNAAZ say that T-50-6 and T-50-7 prototypes are in the middle-construction phase now. T-50-7 will not be flyable.*
> Experts oppinions on T-50-7 purpose has separated to 2 points:
> 1 - *T-50-7 is an RCS measurment and optimizations body.*
> 2 - T-50-7 is another one prototype frame for resource testing while the previous prototype testing gave a lot of data to improve airframe strength and optimize weight. It is also rumored that CM part in the future prototypes and LRIP planes bodies will be significally increased, so they will be tested on T-50-7.
> 
> There are the other facts about static version:
> 1 - T-50-4 has enforcement plates on several parts and those plates must be removed and replaced by internal body strength improvements.
> 2 - As T-50 has exceeded initial speed parameters, then they must be utilized by more robust body allowing to withstand long 2650 km/h (2.35M) flights.

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## anant_s

Arzamas 16 said:


> Commenting journalist has stated that PAK FA is much lighter than F-22 and its maximal speed is 500 km/h greater than F-22.



I suppose this is what was one of the basic philosophy behind T-50 when pitted against F-22, To beat it with its far better maneurability, with matching if not better stealth profile. 
I know its too early to comment and there isn't much of data to compare, but it looks that FGFA/T-50, once matured, will beat F 35 hands down .


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## Gessler

anant_s said:


> I suppose this is what was one of the basic philosophy behind T-50 when pitted against F-22, To beat it with its far better maneurability, with matching if not better stealth profile.
> I know its too early to comment and there isn't much of data to compare, but it looks that FGFA/T-50, once matured, will beat F 35 hands down .



Well PAKFA will be a formidable plane but beating F-35 is not very easy. It's EW systems
are very powerful and so is it's radar and situational awareness system with the EO-DAS.

Infact F-35 has far better situational awareness than F-22.

But however PAK-FA will easily win over the Chinese FGFAs, the Chinese systems are not very
mature and not very capable. Sensor-fusion and powerplant/performance development on the
Chinese FGFAs has still a long way to go.


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## anant_s

Gessler said:


> Well PAKFA will be a formidable plane but beating F-35 is not very easy. It's EW systems
> are very powerful and so is it's radar and situational awareness system with the EO-DAS.
> 
> Infact F-35 has far better situational awareness than F-22.
> 
> But however PAK-FA will easily win over the Chinese FGFAs, the Chinese systems are not very
> mature and not very capable. Sensor-fusion and powerplant/performance development on the
> Chinese FGFAs has still a long way to go.



Pretty much correct, but what i implied was under Visual warfare FGFA will outperform F-35 primarily due to its better kinematic performance. That said it is unlikely there is a chance of a WVR fight and most battles would be BVR where US electronics is expected to come out triumphant.

Given the troubles development history and its astronomic costs, it would be intersting to see how many nations have appetite left for F-35. One reason why Russia and India would want T-50 to mature soon, is the early movers advantage in untapped 5th gen fighter market.


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> Well PAKFA will be a formidable plane but beating F-35 is not very easy. It's EW systems
> are very powerful and so is it's radar and situational awareness system with the EO-DAS.
> 
> Infact F-35 has far better situational awareness than F-22.



I disagree on that, the sheer number and power of AESA radar arrays in different bands, electro optical sensors, as well as RWR should give Pak Fa / FGFA a clear advantage in situational awareness. The FGFA is even likely to add more sensors than the Russians normally do and as reports of IAF officials confirmed, there is a focus on 360° passive detection with different EW sensors. All this makes FGFA possibly one of the best fighters in this field, one reason why I had prefered the twin seater version, because it is easier to use all these informations with a WSO, than with a single pilot.
With a useful number of capable AWACS, as well as these FGFAs patroling alongside the borders, India will have a good advantage in situational awareness over it's enemies!

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## Gessler

sancho said:


> I disagree on that, the sheer number and power of AESA radar arrays in different bands, electro optical sensors, as well as RWR should give Pak Fa / FGFA a clear advantage in situational awareness. The FGFA is even likely to add more sensors than the Russians normally do and as reports of IAF officials confirmed, there is a focus on 360° passive detection with different EW sensors. All this makes FGFA possibly one of the best fighters in this field, one reason why I had prefered the twin seater version, because it is easier to use all these informations with a WSO, than with a single pilot.
> With a useful number of capable AWACS, as well as these FGFAs patroling alongside the borders, India will have a good advantage in situational awareness over it's enemies!



I do know about PAK-FA situational awareness package. I even made a somewhat accurate
chart on that a while back

But what I'm saying is, if PAK-FA can detect F-35 passively sneaking up from 8 o' clock, so can
F-35 detect PAK-FA doing the same. It will not be a walk in the park dealing with F-35 JSF.


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> I do know about PAK-FA situational awareness package. I even made a somewhat accurate
> chart on that a while back
> 
> But what I'm saying is, if PAK-FA can detect F-35 passively sneaking up from 8 o' clock, so can
> F-35 detect PAK-FA doing the same. It will not be a walk in the park dealing with F-35 JSF.



Even if the F35 can detect Pak Fa with it's IR sensors, what should it do? In normal strike config on only carries 2 x AIM 120s, which means it has to turn and direct the radar to the Pak Fa, must hope that it can get a lock and then has 2 x shots. Most F35 versions doesn't even have a gun internally, which makes them completelly dependent on these 2 x missiles!
The same scenario the other way around, Pak Fa in strike, detects an F35 on it's 8 with it's radar and optical sensors. It first can use it's R77s, or the R73s at closer ranges without leaving it's flight path and might simply speed up to loose the slow F35.

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## air marshal



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## sancho

More nice pics here:

ÐÐ½Ð´ÑÐµÐ¹ ÐÐ¸ÐºÑÐ¾ÑÐ¾Ð²Ð¸Ñ â Ð°Ð»ÑÐ±Ð¾Ð¼ Â«ÐÐÐ-Ð¤Ð++Â» Ð½Ð° Ð¯Ð½Ð´ÐµÐºÑ.Ð¤Ð¾ÑÐºÐ°Ñ

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Even if the F35 can detect Pak Fa with it's IR sensors, what should it do? In normal strike config on only carries 2 x AIM 120s, which means it has to turn and direct the radar to the Pak Fa, must hope that it can get a lock and then has 2 x shots. Most F35 versions doesn't even have a gun internally, which makes them completelly dependent on these 2 x missiles!
> The same scenario the other way around, Pak Fa in strike, detects an F35 on it's 8 with it's radar and optical sensors. It first can use it's R77s, or the R73s at closer ranges without leaving it's flight path and might simply speed up to loose the slow F35.



Passive sensors read heat signatures, suppose a F-35 got into FGFA's 6 0 clock, even with 360Degree surveillance how will it dedect the f-35 provided F-35's engines are not 'open' FGFA's passive heat seeking sensors?


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## DrSomnath999

rockstar said:


> Passive sensors read heat signatures, suppose a F-35 got into FGFA's 6 0 clock, even with 360Degree surveillance how will it dedect the f-35 provided F-35's engines are not 'open' FGFA's passive heat seeking sensors?



Well over the shoulder launch capabilty of the IR guided missile with LOAL capabilty & having TVC would come to effect in this situation which has more to do with capabilty of missile rather than plane painting the target on it's 6 O clock position 

Well what is the future IR guided missile for Pakfa??? it would depend upon that 

R 74 M missile Hmm very less is known about it with an improved infra-red (IR)-seeker. has a maximum off-bore-sight angle of 60¹, compared to 40¹ for the basic R-73 ..i dont think it would be used in pakfa ,as it's lacks LOAL capability .

Very good info regarding what type of future IR guided missiles would be used in PAKFA from this source













R-73E and RVV-MD LOAL - Page 2

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## Major Shaitan Singh



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## sancho

> *Russia close to completing its F-22 aircraft rival*
> 
> *Completion of the development of an engine for the Sukhoi PAK FA - aka the T-50 fighter - was announced at the Paris Air Show*. According to the Russian military, which has finished stage one of its flight tests, their results suggest the Russian fighter turned out to be on a par with - and even better in certain areas - than its main American rival, the F-22 Raptor...
> 
> ...The Sukhoi Design Bureau has mentioned &#8220;the PAK FA&#8217;s unprecedentedly low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility.&#8221; The T-50&#8217;s effective reflective area will amount to 5.3 square feet [0.5m² for the T50 prototypes!] (its predecessor, the Sukhoi-30MKI, has 215 square feet) [19m²].
> 
> *This means that the Sukhoi-30MKI appears on the radar screen as a large metal object, while the T-50&#8217;s reflection would only be one-fortieth of that, making it much more difficult to notice or aim weapons at it* &#8212; especially since the machine benefits from the exceptional maneuverability that has been a hallmark of Sukhoi fighters...
> 
> ...*The T-50&#8217;s &#8220;e-pilot&#8221; functionality is constantly analyzing the situation, offering the pilot several options on which to act.*
> 
> The pilot will receive the bulk of flight and combat data in the form of symbols and signs, making it easier to process and substantially easing the pressure on the pilot, while allowing him to focus on the tactical mission at hand...



Russia close to completing its F-22 aircraft rival | Russia Beyond The Headlines

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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> The Sukhoi Design Bureau has mentioned &#8220;the PAK FA&#8217;s unprecedentedly low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility.&#8221; *The T-50&#8217;s effective reflective area will amount to 5.3 square feet [0.5m² for the T50 prototypes!] (its predecessor, the Sukhoi-30MKI, has 215 square feet) [19m²]*.



i think 0.5 m2 he meant for protypes only not for production planes.

Even an average 4th gen fighter like typhoon, rafale even LCA boast to have 1 or less than 1m2 RCS


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> i think 0.5 m2 he meant for protypes only not for production planes.
> 
> Even an average 4th gen fighter like typhoon, rafale even LCA boast to have 1 or less than 1m2 RCS



Of course, that's why I added and marked it, the counter the confusions right away. The prototypes don't use RAM coatings and the final design will have some more RCS reduction featuers. But still when you think about it, the 0.5m² for this large prototype, compared to the much smaller EF and Rafale, *WITH* coatings, would still be an impressive achievement, with more potential for the future.

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## Gessler

I'm wondering what those things ^^ are for.

1. A bump with an angled surface and different texture (side facing the camera).

2. A whole layer of texture that looks strange (many lines drawn in a vertical pattern).

Any idea what they are?
Anyone?


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> I'm wondering what those things ^^ are for.
> 
> 1. A bump with an angled surface and different texture (side facing the camera).
> 
> 2. A whole layer of texture that looks strange (many lines drawn in a vertical pattern).
> 
> Any idea what they are?
> Anyone?



Not sure about the texture, but the bumb should be used to direct the airflow.

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## Gessler

sancho said:


> Not sure about the texture, but the bumb should be used to direct the airflow.



Why does it need a bump to divert airflow? Does the innards of the intake design necessitate it?

Flankers did not have such bumps, right?


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## Bratva

sancho said:


> Even if the F35 can detect Pak Fa with it's IR sensors, what should it do? In normal strike config on only carries 2 x AIM 120s, which means it has to turn and direct the radar to the Pak Fa, must hope that it can get a lock and then has 2 x shots. Most F35 versions doesn't even have a gun internally, which makes them completelly dependent on these 2 x missiles!
> The same scenario the other way around, Pak Fa in strike, detects an F35 on it's 8 with it's radar and optical sensors. It first can use it's R77s, or the R73s at closer ranges without leaving it's flight path and might simply speed up to loose the slow F35.



You haven't factored in JHMDS of F-35 and Russia hasn't made any kind of sophisticated system so far, correct me if I'm wrong. 

Even T-50 detects F-35 from behind, F-35 has ability to launch missile over the shoulder and make and evasive maneuver while T-50 will be busy in dodging the missile giving F-35 enough time to engage T-50 appropriately


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> Why does it need a bump to divert airflow? Does the innards of the intake design necessitate it?
> 
> Flankers did not have such bumps, right?


To improve the engine performance I guess, similar to the effect of DSI I guess, the Flankers had a straight intake, this one is shaped with curves, be it this bump on the one side, or the one behind the gear bay on the other side. 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192880&stc=1&d=1298469731

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## Gessler

sancho said:


> To improve the engine performance I guess, similar to the effect of DSI I guess, the Flankers had a straight intake, this one is shaped with curves, be it this bump on the one side, or the one behind the gear bay on the other side.
> 
> http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192880&stc=1&d=1298469731



Additionally I think they help to shield the fan blades.


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## S-DUCT

Gessler said:


> Why does it need a bump to divert airflow? Does the innards of the intake design necessitate it?
> 
> Flankers did not have such bumps, right?


It's done to prevent the formation of turbolent air flow before compressor blades at very high AOA.
Or simply,to prevent compressor stall at very high AOA.

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## skysthelimit

> *5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost*
> 
> NEW DELHI: India's biggest defence project in the making, the critical joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, has flown into some rough weather.
> 
> Defence ministry sources said the inking of the final design and R&D contract for the stealth fighter has been hit by a huge delay, with Russia also jacking up costs for the futuristic project. "It's very unlikely the FGFA final design contract will be concluded in the 2013-2014 fiscal," said a source.
> 
> This contract was to be inked in 2012 as per the then revised timeline after completion of the preliminary design contract (PD C) phase. India will eventually end up spending close to $35 billion over the next two decades to induct over 200 such "swing-role" fighters.
> 
> The plan till last year was that India would begin inducting the FGFA from 2022 onwards, with IAF test pilots getting three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019 for trials at the Hindustan Aeronautics manufacturing facility at Ozar.
> 
> "The timeframes will now have to be revised. MoD has established a committee of specialists and finance officials to verify the rise in costs. An internal contract negotiation committee is also in progress," said the source.
> 
> But India remains firm about rejecting the US offer for joining its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II' programme. "A lot of money and time has been invested in the FGFA with Russia. India simply cannot afford two FGFAs, both financially as well as logistically" he said.
> 
> The 18-month PDC worth $295 million for the FGFA with Russia was inked in December 2010, under which Indian designers and scientists have even been stationed in Russia to work out the blueprints and documentation for the fighter.
> 
> Though the Indian "perspective multi-role fighter" will be based on the Russian single-seat FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA, which now has four prototypes flying, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements. IAF had initially pitched for 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters but will go for only single-cockpit jets now to reduce costs as well as protect stealth features.
> 
> The final design contract now being negotiated was pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia sharing $5.5 billion each towards the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. Each fighter was to cost over $100 million.
> 
> IAF is quite confident the T-50 will meet its future requirements. Apart from ultra-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the FGFA will carry its weapons inside the fuselage to lower its radar signature. With a cruising speed of Mach 1.7 to 1.8, it has both long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities.
> 
> IAF is currently making do with just 34 fighter squadrons (each has 14 to 18 jets) despite needing at least 44 to keep both Pakistan and China at bay. It's banking upon the ongoing induction of 270 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs for around $12 billion as well as the early inking of the almost $20 billion project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug operational gaps till the FGFA becomes a reality.


5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost - The Times of India

And the hits just keep on coming

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## Domobran7

skysthelimit said:


> 5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost - The Times of India[/url]
> 
> And the hits just keep on coming



Cost overruns are typical of 5th generation fighters, no surprise there.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*PAK FA will get "unlimited" oxygen system*







A promising Russian fighter jet the T-50 (the PAK the FA) will get a a new system of filing of oxygen in the a respiratory mask the pilot. How to writes the newspaper "Izvestia», a system of has developed a scientifically-and-Production enterprise «Star of». Such equipment allows you to to get the oxygen for the respiratory a mixture of right out of the of air during of the flight. For comparison, the all facing on arms of Air Force Russian fighter jets are equipped with the oxygen bomb a limited of volume.

In the words of the chief specialist of Scientific and production enterprise «Star of» of Mikhail Dudnik, thanks to the new of the oxygen system the time of flight at an altitude of now will not be depend from the stock of oxygen in cylinders. In addition, the-board system for allows to save on a payload of: the mass of of a new the equipment makes of only 30 of kilograms, in the then the time of as a system of of oxygen cylinders by two hours of flight weighs about 90 kilograms.

Development of the system of generation of oxygen was conducted throughout the five of recent years. At the present time, she is installed on the four flight prototype-the T-50, passing tests of in situated near Moscow Zhukovsky outside Moscow. In the words of Dudnik, the first copies of the T-50, collected by at the Komsomolskoye-on-the-Amure Aviation factory flew in Moscow suburbs independently, but on the throughout all route to them was only required refueling of without replenishment of of stocks of oxygen.

On the basis of the oxygen system the T-50 created similar equipment and for uchebno-and-combat airplanes the Yak-130, on the which were originally were installed cylinders. Until the end of 2013 a new system of should also get the flush deck fighter jets the MiG-29K. How to the newspaper marks, orders for such a system of have already placed the of the Ministry of of Defense of Algeria and of Malaysia that are planning to equip the her their fighter jets the family of the Su-30.

Earlier, was reported , that the pilots of fighter planes the T-50 will receive new complete sets Protective equipment such which will allow them to carry forward overloads up to 9G duration of up to 30 seconds and to catapult at an altitude of up to 23 of thousands meters. In the the composition of a kit to of flights to the a big an altitude of will be system is enabled the pressure compensation in the lungs, allowing to avoid the treatment of atelectasis (of collapse of of the lungs).

In the of general the complexity of The Ministry of of Defense Russian commissioned a 60 fighters the T-50, while the need the Air Force in of such airplanes is estimated in 150-200 of units. It is expected that in 2015 the government will begin joint testing of aircraft, and in 2016 the PAK FA will go into service.

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## sms

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> *PAK FA will get "unlimited" oxygen system*



Shaitan, I was under impression that such system exist and developed by DRDO few yrs back. Aren't we plannnig to implement proven DRDO system?


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## ejaz007

*Latest News Update:*

*July 15/13:*

India Delays. The FGFA project&#8217;s parameters may be set (q.v. April 10/13), but there&#8217;s a problem with the R&D deal, which was pegged at $11 billion equivalent. The Times of India external link:

&#8220;Defence ministry sources said the inking of the final design and R&D contract for the stealth fighter has been hit by a huge delay, with Russia also jacking up costs for the futuristic project. &#8220;It&#8217;s very unlikely the FGFA final design contract will be concluded in the 2013-2014 fiscal,&#8221; said a source. &#8220;The timeframes will now have to be revised. MoD has established a committee of specialists and finance officials to verify the rise in costs. An internal contract negotiation committee is also in progress&#8230;&#8221;

Russia isn&#8217;t going to wait, and will continue development of their version while they wait for India&#8217;s signature. Operational testing is slated to begin in 2014. If FGFA negotiations stretch into 2015, the net effect will be to severely delay India&#8217;s variant, even as the base Russian design becomes more and more firmly set.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-russia-in-negotiations-re-nextgeneration-fighter-03133/


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Fifth-generation fighter T-50 successfully completed the first phase...


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## sancho

Google translated:



> *Press conference of "Saturn"*
> 
> ...On the engine for the PAK FA
> 
> Asked by reporters on the engine for a prospective fifth-generation fighter being developed by the program "promising aviation complex tactical aircraft" (PAK FA), Fedorov noted that work is being done extremely well under the leadership of chief designer STC them. Arkhip Cradles Eugene Marchukova. Design Bureau NPO "Saturn", headed by chief designer Yuri Shmotinym, did a great job on the new gas generator engine characteristics have turned out much better than expected by the customer. Now comes the final configuration of the motor and coordination with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. Dry questions on placing the engine on the aircraft. President of JSC "UAC" Mikhail Pogosyan puts a condition that the engine installed in the aircraft without any change in the support (now at T-50 or PAK FA fighter jet engines are installed ed. "117" before the new engine). Installing the engine of the second stage will dramatically increase the speed of the aircraft, as the increase traction and acceleration, in addition, the engine will be easier.
> 
> It should be noted that one of the conditions for the developer fighter is the price of a new engine - it should not be higher than the price of the engine, "ed. 117", which is set today, and this demand will be met and maintained. The engine in the production of the most cost-effective when it is released in large series, as it is today, for example, the engine AL-31 FP / FN in Moscow "Salute" and Ufa MPO. Today, there is confidence that even at half of the series, which now is, the production of the new engine will be cost-effective. Now an estimated price corresponds to the engine "izd.117."...



link


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## jiki

Google Translate

*Russia and India are discussing the establishment of a fighter of the 5th generation without fail*

15.07.2013 13:58 (Updated: 15.07.2013 15:45 ) 1423 4 0
A source close to the talks, said that deviations from the schedule of talks between Russia and India to create a fifth-generation fighter is not.
&#1054;&#1089;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; &#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1089;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;-&#1080;&#1085;&#1076;&#1080;&#1081;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1091;&#1078;&#1080;&#1090; &#1058;-50
© RIA Novosti. Alexei Druzhinin

MOSCOW, July 15 - RIA Novosti. No deviations from the schedule negotiations on a package of agreements associated with the joint production of a fifth generation fighter between Russia and India is not, told RIA Novosti on Monday, a source close to the negotiations.

On the eve of the Indian newspaper Times of India quoted a source in the Ministry of Defense reported that the signing of the contract for the development work on the Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter (PMI / FGFA) is delayed because of the increased price of the project by the Russian side.

*"This kind of publication associated exclusively political considerations rather than business. Project is profitable both countries, investment - 50 to 50, so any increase in prices and a slowdown in negotiations is not" - said the source.

*Meanwhile, a source told the Indian edition, remains a very small chance that the contract for the work on the MIT will be signed in the fiscal years 2013-2014. According to him, the time frame will be revised, with the Defense Ministry set up a committee of experts, technicians and financial experts who will be engaged in checking the validity of value growth.

According to the newspaper, despite the delay in signing the contract with the Russian Federation, India still will not accept the U.S. proposal to buy the F-35 Lightning-II, since a large amount of money already invested in the project of MIT and India can not afford to maintain two similar programs, both from a financial point of view and from the point of view of the organization of technical support.

The agreement on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft was signed on 18 October 2007 in Moscow. It is the largest joint project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation. In December 2010, FSUE "Rosoboronexport" company "Sukhoi" and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) signed a contract for the development of conceptual and technical design of aircraft.

At the heart of the Indian "perspective multirole fighter" laid a Russian fighter of the 5th generation "Sukhoi T-50" or PAK FA with the structural modifications to the conditions of the air forces of India. Initially, the Ministry of Defence of India has made a request for 166 single rooms and 48 double machine, but later decided to buy only single.


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## Matrixx

We need them with TT at any cost...

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## shree835

*Russia and India are discussing the establishment of a fighter of the 5th generation without fail*

No deviations from the schedule negotiations on a package of agreements associated with the joint production of a fifth generation fighter between Russia and India is not, told RIA Novosti on Monday, a source close to the negotiations.On the eve of the Indian newspaper Times of India quoted a source in the Ministry of Defense reported that the signing of the contract for the development work on the Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter (PMI / FGFA) is delayed because of the increased price of the project by the Russian side.



&#8220;This kind of publication associated exclusively political considerations rather than business. Project is profitable both countries, investment &#8211; 50 to 50, so any increase in prices and a slowdown in negotiations is not&#8221; &#8211; said the source.



Meanwhile, a source told the Indian edition, remains a very small chance that the contract for the work on the MIT will be signed in the fiscal years 2013-2014. According to him, the time frame will be revised, with the Defense Ministry set up a committee of experts, technicians and financial experts who will be engaged in checking the validity of value growth.



According to the newspaper, despite the delay in signing the contract with the Russian Federation, India still will not accept the U.S. proposal to buy the F-35 Lightning-II, since a large amount of money already invested in the project of MIT and India can not afford to maintain two similar programs, both from a financial point of view and from the point of view of the organization of technical support.



The agreement on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft was signed on 18 October 2007 in Moscow. It is the largest joint project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation. In December 2010, FSUE &#8220;Rosoboronexport&#8221; company &#8220;Sukhoi&#8221; and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) signed a contract for the development of conceptual and technical design of aircraft.



At the heart of the Indian &#8220;perspective multirole fighter&#8221; laid a Russian fighter of the 5th generation &#8220;Sukhoi T-50&#8243; or PAK FA with the structural modifications to the conditions of the air forces of India. Initially, the Ministry of Defence of India has made a request for 166 single rooms and 48 double machine, but later decided to buy only single.


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## S-DUCT



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## kurup

S-DUCT said:


>



Interesting .... Looks like the tail design got modification .

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## Prechko

T-50 engines (mass?) production starts in Ufa, Bashkiria

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## sancho

kurup said:


> Interesting .... Looks like the tail design got modification .



That was done some time ago and only to the T50-1, since it includes the spin shute and this version will do the high AoA and other aerodynamical tests.

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## shree835

*New G-suit gives PAK-FA higher operational ceiling than the Raptor?*

Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA pilots will be equipped with a new g-suit that will allow them to eject from the aircraft at altitudes of 75,000ft (23,000m). If the PAK-FA is able to fly at those altitudes operationally, that would mean that it has a significantly higher operational ceiling than the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

The F-22 is limited by US Air Force regulations to 60,000ft because of the Armstrong Limit, which is found at roughly 62,000ft. The USAF never developed a full pressure-suit for Raptor pilots to wear; instead those pilots wear the Combat Edge ensemble, which counts as a partial pressure suit. Other fighters like the Boeing F-15 or F/A-18, for example, are typically restricted by regulations to 50,000ft (that includes the German Luftwaffe, their Eurofighter Typhoons, as one of their pilots told me, are also limited by regulations to 50,000ft operationally).

There are some very good reasons for those altitude restrictions. Above the Armstrong Limit water will boil at the same temperature as the human body. Basically, if you lose cabin pressure, you will die a slow and horrible death as bodily fluids (except those under pressure inside blood vessels) start to boil unless you have a pressure suit&#8211;like the guys flying U-2s (except they don&#8217;t inflate those suits normally, which has led to problems in the past&#8211;but that&#8217;s a whole different story).

IF the Russian Television story is correct&#8211;it could mean the Russian have developed a full pressure/g-suit that is capable of operating at those altitudes. Or they&#8217;re completely insane&#8211;which is also a possibility I suppose.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/07/new-g-suit-gives-pak-fa-higher.html

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## vostok

Prechko said:


> T-50 engines (mass?) production starts in Ufa, Bashkiria



Vides says they are preparing to mass production. Engine is not ready yet.

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## DrSomnath999

shree835 said:


> *New G-suit gives PAK-FA higher operational ceiling than the Raptor?*
> 
> Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA pilots will be equipped with a new g-suit that will allow them to eject from the aircraft at altitudes of 75,000ft (23,000m). If the PAK-FA is able to fly at those altitudes operationally, *that would mean that it has a significantly higher operational ceiling than the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor*




Not only that it is going to have even faster speed also

& indirectly 
having higher operational ceiling & faster speed would help in increasing the kinematic range of BVRAAM fired by Pakfa


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## sancho

> ...*Golden skies*
> 
> The PAK-FA pilot is going to be surrounded by gold at all times as NPP Technologia enterprise in Russia&#8217;s Obninsk has developed *a gold coating for the cockpit which reduces radar&#8217;s ability to detect the equipment by 250 times. The coating also protects pilot from high-energy radar pulses and solar radiation.*
> 
> The coating consists not only of gold, but a combination of various metals, including stanum and indium, applied on the cockpit with a specially developed magnetron installation...



Rarefied air: Russian 5G fighters boast cutting-edge life support systems ? RT News

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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Rarefied air: Russian 5G fighters boast cutting-edge life support systems ? RT News



So is the Item 30 ready or not yet? Well if the Soviets managed to make the AL 41 in the 80s that was the first fifth generation engine what is taking them so long to make one now? Or are they waiting for the PAKFA to enter LSP?


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## S-DUCT




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## shree835

PAK FA/FGFAEEP ANALYSIS(HD) - YouTube

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## klub

DrSomnath999 said:


> Not only that it is going to have even faster speed also
> 
> & indirectly
> having higher operational ceiling & faster speed would help in increasing the kinematic range of BVRAAM fired by Pakfa



PAKFA can do Mach 1.5 supercruise , f22 does mach 1.82. PAKFA ceiling operational 20000m F22 19812m, Max ceiling Pakfa according to report 22400m f22 22700m


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## satishkumarcsc

klub said:


> PAKFA can do Mach 1.5 supercruise , f22 does mach 1.82. PAKFA ceiling operational 20000m F22 19812m, Max ceiling Pakfa according to report 22400m f22 22700m



PakFA is a prototype with an underpowered engine...


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## klub

satishkumarcsc said:


> PakFA is a prototype with an underpowered engine...



No thats because the final engine gives 171.5kn thrust and 1.5 mach supercruise. The F-22 has demonstrated supercruise speeds of at least Mach 1.7, a difference of 320 knots (593 km/h) indicated airspeed (KIAS) at 40,000 ft (12,000 m).


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## klub

I DON'T TRUST RUSSIAN NONSENSE. OH WE'LL MAKE NUCLEAR POWERED DESTROYERS BY 2015.... Not even hull is ready. They are just refirbuishing 30 yr old Kirovs. USA had this in SR 71 which flies at 80000ft. F-22 can perform tactical maneuvers at 60000 - 70000ft doing a reverse immelmann turn. 

The museum's single-seat F15A, nicknamed "Streak Eagle," broke eight time-to-climb world records between* Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975.* In setting the last of the eight records, it reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and "coasted" to nearly *103,000 feet* before descending. It was flown in its natural metal finish to reduce weight for the record-setting flights. To protect it from corrosion, McDonnell Douglas Corp. has since painted it in the gray color scheme of most operational F-15s.


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## Shadow_Hunter

klub said:


> I DON'T TRUST RUSSIAN NONSENSE. OH WE'LL MAKE NUCLEAR POWERED DESTROYERS BY 2015.... Not even hull is ready. They are just refirbuishing 30 yr old Kirovs. USA had this in SR 71 which flies at 80000ft. F-22 can perform tactical maneuvers at 60000 - 70000ft doing a reverse immelmann turn.
> 
> The museum's single-seat F15A, nicknamed "Streak Eagle," broke eight time-to-climb world records between* Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975.* In setting the last of the eight records, it reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and "coasted" to nearly *103,000 feet* before descending. It was flown in its natural metal finish to reduce weight for the record-setting flights. To protect it from corrosion, McDonnell Douglas Corp. has since painted it in the gray color scheme of most operational F-15s.



Su 27 broke 27 records. Whats your point?


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## satishkumarcsc

klub said:


> I DON'T TRUST RUSSIAN NONSENSE. OH WE'LL MAKE NUCLEAR POWERED DESTROYERS BY 2015.... Not even hull is ready. They are just refirbuishing 30 yr old Kirovs. USA had this in SR 71 which flies at 80000ft. F-22 can perform tactical maneuvers at 60000 - 70000ft doing a reverse immelmann turn.
> 
> The museum's single-seat F15A, nicknamed "Streak Eagle," broke eight time-to-climb world records between* Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975.* In setting the last of the eight records, it reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and "coasted" to nearly *103,000 feet* before descending. It was flown in its natural metal finish to reduce weight for the record-setting flights. To protect it from corrosion, McDonnell Douglas Corp. has since painted it in the gray color scheme of most operational F-15s.



SU 27 broke that record a long time back. The Item 30 engine has now crossed the design phase. And you need to read a lot more about Russian aviation before you run your mouth.

BTW the AL 41 designed in 1980s had more thrust than any other engines that were built that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_AL-41


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## klub

satishkumarcsc said:


> SU 27 broke that record a long time back. The Item 30 engine has now crossed the design phase. And you need to read a lot more about Russian aviation before you run your mouth.
> 
> BTW the AL 41 designed in 1980s had more thrust than any other engines that were built that time.



These figures are for the damn engine mach 1.5 supercruise 171kn.


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## DrSomnath999

klub said:


> PAKFA can do Mach 1.5 supercruise , f22 does mach 1.82. PAKFA ceiling operational 20000m F22 19812m, Max ceiling Pakfa according to report 22400m f22 22700m



1st of all u need to understand that PAK fa doesnt have a proper engine it is being developed 

2ndly Putin did claim in a video the T-50 will have greater supercruise and max speed than the F-22. how do u take it thats upto you ???

3rd PAK FA empty weight is 3 tons less than F-22, then T-50 can reach 2100 km/h supercruise speed using the current 117 engines. This is indirectly confirmed by Mikhail Pogosian. 

4th F22 exact supercruise speed is highly classified but more than mach 1.5 is very likely

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## satishkumarcsc

klub said:


> These figures are for the damn engine mach 1.5 supercruise 171kn.



The engine has not even come out of the drawing board and you are already sure of it's supercruise capability? Do you have a crystal ball or something?


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## klub

satishkumarcsc said:


> The engine has not even come out of the drawing board and you are already sure of it's supercruise capability? Do you have a crystal ball or something?



The engine is ready but fitting it is difficult. Even f35 can do 50000lb or 220kn with current engine but 1 single engine producing such monstrous power heats blade resulting in crack during testing. So image Pak fa will also take time for final integration.


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## satishkumarcsc

klub said:


> The engine is ready but fitting it is difficult. Even f35 can do 50000lb or 220kn with current engine but 1 single engine producing such monstrous power heats blade resulting in crack during testing. So image Pak fa will also take time for final integration.



But still you told that it cant supercruise...thats what I asked if you have a crystal ball or something.


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## klub

satishkumarcsc said:


> But still you told that it cant supercruise...thats what I asked if you have a crystal ball or something.



IT* CAN SUPERCRUISE* BUT AT *1.5 MACH ONLY*. Not Mach 1.82 like F22 as TWR is less than f22 as it is heavier and has less thrust available.


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## satishkumarcsc

klub said:


> IT* CAN SUPERCRUISE* BUT AT *1.5 MACH ONLY*. Not Mach 1.82 like F22 as TWR is less than f22 as it is heavier and has less thrust available.



Hpw do you know that? That was my question.


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## vostok

klub said:


> IT* CAN SUPERCRUISE* BUT AT *1.5 MACH ONLY*. Not Mach 1.82 like F22 as TWR is less than f22 as it is heavier and has less thrust available.



You can nit know that. New engine for PAK-FA is not ready yet.


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## klub

vostok said:


> You can nit know that. New engine for PAK-FA is not ready yet.



One of your media outlets quoted the project director man. I ain't lying. I want Israeli avionics fused with Indian ones it. Killer in Asia Pacific region.


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## satishkumarcsc

klub said:


> One of your media outlets quoted the project director man. I ain't lying. I want Israeli avionics fused with Indian ones it. Killer in Asia Pacific region.



The actual speed of both the F 22 and the PAK FA are classified. and so is the top speed. So there is no way you can know the top supercruise speed or the top speed of both the aircrafts. Whatever you see in the media is just a wild guess of numbers.

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## GeorgeFoulke

DrSomnath999 said:


> 1st of all u need to understand that PAK fa doesnt have a proper engine it is being developed
> 
> 2ndly Putin did claim in a video the T-50 will have greater supercruise and max speed than the F-22. how do u take it thats upto you ???
> 
> 3rd PAK FA empty weight is 3 tons less than F-22,* then T-50 can reach 2100 km/h supercruise speed using the current 117 engines. This is indirectly confirmed by Mikhail Pogosian. *
> 
> 4th F22 exact supercruise speed is highly classified but more than mach 1.5 is very likely



Do you have a source for that claim? Because I sure as hell can't find it.


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## DrSomnath999

GeorgeFoulke said:


> Do you have a source for that claim? Because I sure as hell can't find it.



actually i got that info from a forum only but that actually should be max speed not supercruise speed



> Data is short, almost none actually. However progrm-outside experts have calculated that if the PAK FA empty weight is 3 tons less than F-22, then T-50 can reach 2100 km/h supercruise speed using the current 117 engines. This is indirectly confirmed by Mikhail Pogosian. He has stated that Sukhoi company is completely satisfied with 117 engine performance and the engine completely complies all the 5-gen fighter engine requirements on thrust, specific thrust, resource and speed/altitude params.



SOURCE
PAK FA, T-50: News - Page 59



OK here is a source that would grow hair in your chest


> *Russia&#8217;s fifth generation T-50 fighter jet through important testing stage*
> Modern-day combat planes will never again be what they used to be. Now it is a jet-fighter, an attack plane and a bomber all in one; a plane that can accomplish any mission. T-50 is a fifth generation plane, which means it is invisible to enemy radars;* it means it&#8217;s the fastest plane, with the maximum speed exceeding 2,500 kilometres per hour; it means the plane is equipped with artificial intelligence (that is the aircraft thinks over and performs missions that the pilot was to take care of earlier).*
> According to a test pilot, Hero of Russia Sergei Bogdan, the pilot may abandon all of his controls on barely taking off, without even activating the auto-flight mode; the aircraft will never dive, but will maintain its horizontal flight. The plane may even start falling tail first, in which case it will by all means warn the pilot of the situation.
> If something happens to the pilot during the flying mission, the jet fighter will be able to return to the base and even land there on its own. It is actually quite true that the T-50 offers its pilots many things on a silver platter. One such thing is an automatic target recognizer.
> The jet fighter&#8217;s cover is suggestive of a living organism; it reacts to whatever happens around due to special transmitting-receiving elements that are virtually sewn into the jet-fighter&#8217;s body. This is also known as a smart cover.
> Prior to T-50, it was the US F-22 Raptor, which was seen as the world&#8217;s smartest fifth generation jet fighter. *But the Russian fighter plane is ahead of its US equivalent in several ways, namely T-50 is faster than F-22 Raptor by 500 kilometres per hour, it is lighter but can flight to greater distances.* But the most important about T-50 is its equipment, which is hidden inside the aircraft. The PAK FA (another way of referring to T-50, meaning literally a &#8216;Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation&#8217;, made more than 500 flights in the years of secret testing. The designers have agreed that the flights have been normal.



Read more: Russia

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## GeorgeFoulke

F-22 can reach speeds of 1600 mph according to chief test pilot Paul Metz. If T-50 is 500 km/h faster than that, then it can somehow reach 3000 km/h. Unless Pogosyan or Bogdan explicitly gives a figure like Metz did, then I don't trust the 500 km/h claim, as it is something said by the news media. Make no mistake, T-50 is an impressive aircraft, but traveling that fast doesn't make much sense, as you would be quite visible to IR sensors.


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## kurup

GeorgeFoulke said:


> F-22 can reach speeds of 1600 mph according to chief test pilot Paul Metz. If T-50 is 500 km/h faster than that, then it can somehow reach 3000 km/h.



That math does not add up .

According to you , maximum speed of F22 is 1600 mph . T50 has 500kmph more speed , i.e 310 mph .

So the T50 will reach speed around 1900+ mph .


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## Dillinger

kurup said:


> That math does not add up .
> 
> According to you , maximum speed of F22 is 1600 mph . T50 has 500kmph more speed , i.e 310 mph .
> 
> So the T50 will reach speed around 1900+ mph .



Bro 1900 mph is equal to 3000 kph. 3000 kph is equivalent to Mach 2.8.

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## DrSomnath999

GeorgeFoulke said:


> F-22 can reach speeds of 1600 mph according to chief test pilot Paul Metz. If T-50 is 500 km/h faster than that, then it can somehow reach 3000 km/h. Unless Pogosyan or Bogdan explicitly gives a figure like Metz did, then I don't trust the 500 km/h claim, as it is something said by the news media. Make no mistake, T-50 is an impressive aircraft, but traveling that fast doesn't make much sense, as you would be quite visible to IR sensors.



if thats the case then best thing is to wait until we get a proper pakfa engine installed & see what would be the exact speed of 
PAKFA

Until then how do one react to the claims depends upon the person himself

CHEERS


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## kurup

Dillinger said:


> Bro 1900 mph is equal to 3000 kph. 3000 kph is equivalent to Mach 2.8.



I got lost in the kmph to mph conversion and vice-versa .

Sorry @GeorgeFoulke , you were correct .


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## shree835

*Russian Air Force to Get First T-50 Fighter Jet This Year, IAF Next Year*

The Russian Air Force will take delivery of its first fifth-generation T-50 fighter jet in the third quarter of this year for final state test flights starting in the fourth quarter, the services commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev said Tuesday.

President Vladimir Putin had informed lately that T-50 would enter service with the countrys air force in 2016 , while Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with stealth features based on the T-50 is slated to be inducted in the Indian Air Force by 2022. IAF will get first prototype of the FGFA which is scheduled to arrive in India by 2014 after which it will undergo extensive trials at the Ojhar air base in Maharashtra.

T-50, which will make up the core of Russias future fighter fleet, is a multirole warplane featuring stealth technology, super-maneuverability, supercruise capability, and advanced avionics including an active electronically-scanned array radar, according to its designer Sukhoi.

India plans to acquire 214 of these fighter planes by the end of 2030 at an estimated cost of over USD 30 billion. second prototype will arrive in India in 2017 and the third prototype will arrive in 2019. based on feedback from Indian air force final version of the FGFA will be developed for operational service in IAF which will enter service in 2022 .

FGFA is expected to have compatibility with various missile types, including missiles of Indian and European origins. Majority of the software in FGFA would be of Indian origin, along with Indian avionics.HAL will develop mission computer, navigation systems, cockpit displays, counter-measure dispensing (CMD) systems and will modify Sukhois prototype delivered to India into fighter jets as per the requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

T-50 prototypes delivered to IAF will also be tested in all weather conditions like hot weather, cold weather, Sea level and high altitude tests before inducted into IAF . HAL and IAF along with Russia are working on evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-37. Russian Air Force will get 200 single seated and 50 twin-seated PAK FAs while Indian Air Force will get 166 single seated and 48 twin-seated FGFAs.

http://en.rian.ru/trend/fifth_generation_fighter/

http://idrw.org/?p=25299#more-25299

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## SR-91

Great news!!!!
Program is still running on time. Pak-Fa so far has exceeded its expectations, Just imagine,what a kick-a.. fighter FGFA is going to be


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## kurutoga

I got these terms mixed up. Is T-50 the prototype/test plane of PAK-FA as well as FGFA? I thought these two are different fighters. The former is for use by Russian air force and the latter is the stealthified version for India air force. If so why does it say T-50 will be delivered to IAF?




shree835 said:


> *Russian Air Force to Get First T-50 Fighter Jet This Year, IAF Next Year*


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## Arzamas 16

> *first production fifth-generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) will be equipped with full-time fifth-generation new engines - engines of the second stage* - at the turn of this and the following decades, told RIA Novosti on Monday, the representative of the United Engine Corporation (UEC ).



Ð¢-50 Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ð²ÑÐ¼ Ð´Ð²Ð¸Ð³Ð°ÑÐµÐ»ÐµÐ¼ Ð¿Ð¾ÑÐ²Ð¸ÑÑÑ Ð½Ðµ ÑÐ°Ð½ÑÑÐµ ÐºÐ¾Ð½ÑÐ° Ð´ÐµÑÑÑÐ¸Ð»ÐµÑÐ¸Ñ | Ð*ÐÐ ÐÐ¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÑÐ¸


I told many people here before that production PAK FA will be equipped with Type 30, 117 engine is only for prototypes test beds.


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## kurutoga

But another thread quoted some news saying T-50 will join the air force by 2015? how can you explain the apparent mismatch?



Arzamas 16 said:


> I told many people here before that production PAK FA will be equipped with Type 30, 117 engine is only for prototypes test beds.


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## Arzamas 16

kurutoga said:


> But another thread quoted some news saying T-50 will join the air force b*y 2015?*how can you explain the apparent mismatch?




No, Putin himself said it will join VVS in *2016*, and if we take into account future delays the most realistic time frame is 2017-2018.


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## kurutoga

I see, but the article you quoted said the following (if I am not mistaken):

1. Fifth-gen jet final production will not use 117, but the new (second stage) engine

2. The new engine will not be available until next decade

So the only logical conclusions will be:

A. T-50 can join air force using 117 before 2020 but it is not considered a fifth-gen jet at that time. If so, what does this put the Indian program, is it considered a real fifth-gen jet?

B. The real fifth-gen jet will be equipped with the new engine once it is available, let's suppose it takes 2 years for the test flight then the real fifth-gen jet will join air force no early than 2023.

C. Or I misunderstood the whole logic behind it.




Arzamas 16 said:


> No, Putin himself said it will join VVS in *2016*, and if we take into account future delays the most realistic time frame is 2017-2018.


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## shree835

kurutoga said:


> I got these terms mixed up. Is T-50 the prototype/test plane of PAK-FA as well as FGFA? I thought these two are different fighters. The former is for use by Russian air force and the latter is the stealthified version for India air force. If so why does it say T-50 will be delivered to IAF?



Bcoz...India is going to get both ... T-50 will be there as a single seat fighter and FGFA will be double seat fighter jet.... FGFA will be completely different design and the base would be T-50.


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## sms

shree835 said:


> Bcoz...India is going to get both ... T-50 will be there as a single seat fighter and FGFA will be double seat fighter jet.... *FGFA will be completely different design* and the base would be T-50.



Are you sure?
We are under impression from various media sources and press releases. That the FGFA is T-50 modified for 2 twin seat with Indian prefered electronics.

FGFA = T50 + twn seat modification + Electronics prefered by India + some additional non Russian weapon integration


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## kurutoga

Still not clear enough. You were saying:

PAK-FA = single seat FGFA, therefore
T-50 = prototype of single seat FGFA
twin seat FGFA is a new design based on PAK-FA

But it was widely discussed before that:
1. The twin seat FGFA was cancelled
2. IAF was not happy with PAK-FA's stealth properties and was not going to order any

and if "T-50 = prototype of single seat FGFA", why wait 4-6 years to deliver two more prototypes in 2017 and 2019? Why can't IAF get a T-50 today?




shree835 said:


> Bcoz...India is going to get both ... T-50 will be there as a single seat fighter and FGFA will be double seat fighter jet.... FGFA will be completely different design and the base would be T-50.

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## shree835

sms said:


> Are you sure?
> We are under impression from various media sources and press releases. That the FGFA is T-50 modified for 2 twin seat with Indian prefered electronics.
> 
> FGFA = T50 + twn seat modification + Electronics prefered by India + some additional non Russian weapon integration



I Said the same FGFA will be on the base of T-50...For more information , you can look around.


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## Arzamas 16

kurutoga said:


> I see, but the article you quoted said the following (if I am not mistaken):
> 
> 1. Fifth-gen jet final production will not use 117, but the new (second stage) engine
> 
> 2. The new engine will not be available until next decade
> 
> So the only logical conclusions will be:
> 
> A. T-50 can join air force using 117 before 2020 but it is not considered a fifth-gen jet at that time. If so, what does this put the Indian program, is it considered a real fifth-gen jet?
> 
> B. The real fifth-gen jet will be equipped with the new engine once it is available, let's suppose it takes 2 years for the test flight then the real fifth-gen jet will join air force no early than 2023.
> 
> C. Or I misunderstood the whole logic behind it.




The same article also said that second stage engine will be ready by 2015, and PAK FA enters service in 2016, so when PAK FA or SU-XX enters service it will have the second stage engine.

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## kurutoga

Where do you get the year 2015 from? If I search the word 2015 in that article I got no hits. The article title is "&#1058;-50 &#1089; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1084; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1084; &#1087;&#1086;&#1103;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1100;&#1096;&#1077; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1094;&#1072; &#1076;&#1077;&#1089;&#1103;&#1090;&#1080;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1080;&#1103;", in the content it says:

""&#1055;&#1086;&#1103;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103; &#1087;&#1103;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; (&#1074;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1101;&#1090;&#1072;&#1087;&#1072 &#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1090;&#1091; &#1089;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1081;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1055;&#1040;&#1050; &#1060;&#1040; &#1084;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1086; &#1086;&#1078;&#1080;&#1076;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1085;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1100;&#1096;&#1077; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1094;&#1072; &#1090;&#1077;&#1082;&#1091;&#1097;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086; &#1076;&#1077;&#1089;&#1103;&#1090;&#1080;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1080;&#1103;", &#8212; &#1089;&#1082;&#1072;&#1079;&#1072;&#1083; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100; &#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1087;&#1086;&#1088;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080;."

This means 2020 or later, no?




Arzamas 16 said:


> The same article also said that second stage engine will be ready by 2015, and PAK FA enters service in 2016, so when PAK FA or SU-XX enters service it will have the second stage engine.


----------



## Arzamas 16

kurutoga said:


> *This means 2020 or later, no?*



I will repeat again, Putin himself has said that PAK FA will enter service in no latter than 2016.

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## kurutoga

That information directly contradicts with the article you have quoted, which says the engine is not ready until after 2020. It's possible different arms of the government send out different messages to confuse potential enemies, or even partners. But I have to say it is kind of confusing that the story always changes once a while. I guess at this moment this is the best we outsiders know (or are willing to admit).



Arzamas 16 said:


> I will repeat again, Putin himself has said that PAK FA will enter service in no latter than 2016.


----------



## Arzamas 16

kurutoga said:


> That information directly contradicts with the article you have quoted, which says the engine is not ready until after 2020. *It's possible different arms of the government send out different messages to confuse potential enemies, or even partners. *But I have to say it is kind of confusing that the story always changes once a while. I guess at this moment this is the best we outsiders know (or are willing to admit).




Bingo


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## DrSomnath999

*The development of &#8220;final&#8221; engine for T-50 will be completed in 2015*

The development of the 2nd stage or &#8220;final&#8221; engine for fifth-generation T-50 fighter (PAK FA) will be completed in mid-2015, a representative of United Engine Corporation (UEC) told RIA Novosti.

Taking into account the time needed for development of the next-generation engine it was decided to implement the project in two stages. The first &#1058;-50 prototypes are powered by the 1st stage engine &#8211; Product 117. "At present detail design and full-scale design of the engine have been completed (this refers to the 2nd stage engine), special and endurance tests are in progress. The development should be completed in the second quarter of 2015", &#8212; the source said.

He noted that the program is on schedule and a bit ahead of the aircraft program.

The source reminded that the meeting of science and engineering board with the participation of all the scientific research institutes, Ministry of Defense of RF and the customer &#8211; Sukhoi Holding Company, was held in late 2012. The technical solutions implemented by Design Bureau named after A.M. Lyulka in cooperation with Salut and NPO Saturn during development of the 2nd stage engine&#8217;s major components were considered. The solutions offered by the designers allow improving the engine performance and exceeding the parameters specified in the performance specification. "The Product 117 will be the first Russian-produced engine to have a FADEC", &#8212; the source said.

The development of

*The 2nd stage engine is the true PAK-FA engine to be installed in PAK-FA in future
well still highly classified Got to wait*

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## satishkumarcsc

DrSomnath999 said:


> *The development of &#8220;final&#8221; engine for T-50 will be completed in 2015*
> 
> The development of the 2nd stage or &#8220;final&#8221; engine for fifth-generation T-50 fighter (PAK FA) will be completed in mid-2015, a representative of United Engine Corporation (UEC) told RIA Novosti.
> 
> Taking into account the time needed for development of the next-generation engine it was decided to implement the project in two stages. The first &#1058;-50 prototypes are powered by the 1st stage engine &#8211; Product 117. "At present detail design and full-scale design of the engine have been completed (this refers to the 2nd stage engine), special and endurance tests are in progress. The development should be completed in the second quarter of 2015", &#8212; the source said.
> 
> He noted that the program is on schedule and a bit ahead of the aircraft program.
> 
> The source reminded that the meeting of science and engineering board with the participation of all the scientific research institutes, Ministry of Defense of RF and the customer &#8211; Sukhoi Holding Company, was held in late 2012. The technical solutions implemented by Design Bureau named after A.M. Lyulka in cooperation with Salut and NPO Saturn during development of the 2nd stage engine&#8217;s major components were considered. The solutions offered by the designers allow improving the engine performance and exceeding the parameters specified in the performance specification. "The Product 117 will be the first Russian-produced engine to have a FADEC", &#8212; the source said.
> 
> The development of
> 
> *The 2nd stage engine is the true PAK-FA engine to be installed in PAK-FA in future
> well still highly classified Got to wait*



Well the Item 30 specifications were supposed to exceed the AL 41's (original) specifications. Let us hope it does.


----------



## conworldus

There is a rumor on Chinese sites that nobody has ever seen the T-50 flying with the weapon bay open.

Can any Indian or Russian members post a picture of the T-50 with the weapon bay open in test flight?


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## conworldus

There is a rumor on Chinese sites that nobody has ever seen the T-50 flying with the weapon bay open.

Can any Indian or Russian members post a picture of the T-50 with the weapon bay open in test flight?


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## kurup

conworldus said:


> There is a rumor on Chinese sites that nobody has ever seen the T-50 flying with the weapon bay open.
> 
> Can any Indian or Russian members post a picture of the T-50 with the weapon bay open in test flight?



I don't think there is a picture of T-50 with open weapon bays .


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## Gessler

?????????? ???????? / ?????????? / ??????????? ??????

PAK-FA's side-scan AFAR/APAR radar from Tikhomirov NIIP.


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## by78

Why would you fly with the weapons bay open? If you meant to ask if the weapons bay is operational, then watch this video.

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## sardar1987

I am completely sold on fgfa,even though it may come out to be inferior to f-35 in some respects(electronics and stealth) but still its an air superiority fighter while f-35 is more of a multirole with huge focus on air to ground role.My concern is rafale,its wayyyy too costly without that much utility.Now the reports are that pakfa(not fgfa) may be ready in 2016.It will cost less than rafale and arguably will be better than it in most respects(maybe they have no match for spectra but still).So we must try to get rafale deal scrapped and get pakfa indeed,it will be better


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## SRP

sardar1987 said:


> I am completely sold on fgfa,even though it may come out to be inferior to f-35 in some respects(electronics and stealth) but still its an air superiority fighter while f-35 is more of a multirole with huge focus on air to ground role.My concern is rafale,its wayyyy too costly without that much utility.Now the reports are that pakfa(not fgfa) may be ready in 2016.It will cost less than rafale and arguably will be better than it in most respects(maybe they have no match for spectra but still).So we must try to get rafale deal scrapped and get pakfa indeed,it will be better



Do you have any idea when FGFA going to be inducted? What is the current strength of IAF squadrons?


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## sardar1987

pakfa is gonna be inducted in 2016 as per the russian sources and fgfa around 2022 starting but i am sold that we should opt for earlier pakfa than go for rafale

New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016


----------



## S-DUCT



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## Major Shaitan Singh

*(&#1058;-50) PAK FAs engine*


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## Yeti

Sukhoi T-50 Shows Flight-Control Innovations

*By Bill Sweetman

Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology*


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## Gessler

Yeti said:


> Sukhoi T-50 Shows Flight-Control Innovations
> 
> *By Bill Sweetman
> 
> Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology*



I feel that 245-km Mach 4 ARM is going to be the future replacement for existing Kh-31P ARMs.


----------



## Yeti

Gessler said:


> I feel that 245-km Mach 4 ARM is going to be the future replacement for existing Kh-31P ARMs.



A significant development is the new Kh-58UShKE, a long-range (up to 245 km), Mach 4-capable anti-radar missile originally produced for the MiG-25BM Foxbat-E, fitted with folding wings for internal carriage. 


Looks like a killer missile!


However, Saturn Managing Director Ilya Fyodorov confirmed at a press conference last month that the company is designing a follow-on engine (referred to by the 117 designer as izdeliye 30) for the T-50, which is expected to offer higher performance than *the 117 from 2020 onward. *


We will get the prototypes with the izdeliye (Type) 117 engine and later with the proper T-50 engines it seems


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## Gessler

Yeti said:


> We will get the prototypes with the izdeliye (Type) 117 engine and later with the proper T-50 engines it seems



I think it's same for Russia.


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## Yeti

Gessler said:


> I think it's same for Russia.




yep, any idea when we will be getting our hands on the prototypes? will it be next year sometime the first one?


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## Gessler

Yeti said:


> yep, any idea when we will be getting our hands on the prototypes? will it be next year sometime the first one?



Probably...but it won't be the in final form when it first comes to India. There are tons of NG systems
to be added after they arrive here. We'll get to see the final form only after 2018 IMO.


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## Yeti

Gessler said:


> Probably...but it won't be the in final form when it first comes to India. There are tons of NG systems
> to be added after they arrive here. We'll get to see the final form only after 2018 IMO.




Yes this will just be the prototypes we will get but our Indian version will be different to theirs, different software for sure and I am pretty sure Samtel HAL will design the display Systems on our version.


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## Gessler

Yeti said:


> Yes this will just be the prototypes we will get but our Indian version will be different to theirs, different software for sure and I am pretty sure Samtel HAL will design the display Systems on our version.



I have known that the Indian version may have a frameless canopy - made in India.

PK Sengupta says frameless canopies are already well into development for Tejas Mk-2.


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## Sergi

Gessler said:


> I have known that the Indian version may have a frameless canopy - made in India.
> 
> PK Sengupta says frameless canopies are already well into development for Tejas Mk-2.



Anything besides sengupta ??? Any other source ???


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## sardar1987

But the model at aero india 2013 showed framed canopy??


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## Gessler

sardar1987 said:


> But the model at aero india 2013 showed framed canopy??



Those models are not accurately made at all.

Infact they even missed the dorsal IRST piece. Side-mounted EO/MAWS pieces, and a lot other
details.

They just see pics of PAKFA on the net and make their model.

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## Gessler

Sergi said:


> Anything besides sengupta ??? Any other source ???



No, but most of the time only Sengupta has news about in-development stuff, probably due to
his contacts in the MoD and services.

Other sources usually report AFTER something has been officially disclosed.

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## Sergi

Gessler said:


> No, but most of the time only Sengupta has news about in-development stuff, probably due to
> his contacts in the MoD and services.
> 
> Other sources usually report AFTER something has been officially disclosed.



Atleast that's what he always say. Hope he is correct this time. Thanks for reply


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## sardar1987

side array for pakfa
N036B-1-01L/ -01B NIIP AESA
371 t/r modules







ÐÐÐÐÐ¾Ð²ÑÐºÐ¸Ðµ ÑÑÑÐ¿ÑÐ¸Ð·Ñ / ÐÐ¾Ð¾ÑÑÐ¶ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ / ÐÐµÐ·Ð°Ð²Ð¸ÑÐ¸Ð¼Ð°Ñ Ð³Ð°Ð·ÐµÑÐ°


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## sardar1987

some schematics for pakfa


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## sardar1987

some schematics


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## vostok

Training fly before the MAKS-2013 




PAK FA fighter will receive a system with a helmet-mounted display
Scientific and Production Enterprise "Star" is developing a pilot helmet fighter T-50 (PAK FA) with the display on the glass. On this, as reported by "Interfax", said CEO and Chief Designer of NPP "Star" Sergei Pozdnyakov. According to him, the new helmet is developed on the basis of a protective helmet ZS-10.

"Helmet from the point of view of the suspension and convenience regulirovkiotrabotana need to be integrated helmet-mounted display system information. This system makes the Ryazan Instrument Plant. Prototypes of us are now on », &#9472; Pozdnjakov said, adding that the" Star "will hold an ergonomic evaluation of the helmet, and centrifuge tests in the wind tunnel. The entire system will be sent to the assembly for flight tests in 2014.

Earlier it was reported that the company "Radio-electronic technology" (KRET) show at MAKS-2013 display system for targeting fighter T-50. This helmet-mounted display system with a modified image processing algorithms allow pilots of combat aircraft to see targets in all weather conditions, day and night. Details of the prospective system are still unknown.

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## Gessler



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## Water Car Engineer



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## 1000VA



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## egodoc222

^^sexy pics!!! especially the one wid flanker and pak-fa!


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## vostok




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## Gessler

From MAKS 2013 preparation flights -











Latest images of 4th T-50 prototype (054) -

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## he-man

Gessler said:


> From MAKS 2013 preparation flights -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Latest images of 4th T-50 prototype (054) -



Man maks 2013 is a total disappointment on the pakfa front..............no display of systems or radar!!

what were they thinking??


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## he-man

ladies and gentlemen i give u.......

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## Gessler

he-man said:


> Man maks 2013 is a total disappointment on the pakfa front..............no display of systems or radar!!
> 
> what were they thinking??



PAK-FA is the forefront of Russia's aerospace technology. It would be foolish to put on display any big
details at this point. Will the U.S. reveal detailes about F-22 Raptor's systems?

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## vostok

I read that this year will begin test firing missiles from the PAK-FA.

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## Sri

My thought was PakFA had too many public appearances/demo flights in airshows than what was needed. I mean F22/F35 did not have this kind of display...


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## he-man

Gessler said:


> PAK-FA is the forefront of Russia's aerospace technology. It would be foolish to put on display any big
> details at this point. Will the U.S. reveal detailes about F-22 Raptor's systems?



Man who cares??At least show the number of systems on board........i can understand if they son't give specs,,,i was looking forward to this show


----------



## kurup

vostok said:


> I read that this year will begin test firing missiles from the PAK-FA.



I thought they already fired missiles from PAK FA .


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## vostok

kurup said:


> I thought they already fired missiles from PAK FA .



It is a computer simulation, as far as I know.


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## kurup

vostok said:


> It is a computer simulation, as far as I know.



If that is the case , it is one among the best CG I have ever seen ..... 

I thought it was real .

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## neehar

*India to customise Russia's FGFA planes
*

The Indian version of an Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter plane is going to be lighter weight, more powerful and less visible to enemy radars that the original Russian version, according to a senior executive at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Under a joint project with Russia to build a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) India will modify and customise the prototype Russia has developed independently.

While the Russian version of the FGFA is all-metal, ours will have wings and empennage (vertical and horizontal stabilisers) made of composite materials, said S. Subrahmanyan, Managing Director of MiG Complex at HAL.

*The use of composites will reduce the planes weight and give it lower signature. Our version will also have more advanced Indian-made avionics,* Mr. Subrahmanyan told The Hindu at the Moscow Air Show-2013. He is leading a HAL delegation to the biannual air show being held this year from August 27 to September 1.

Thanks to these improvements we will get a better and more powerful platform, Mr. Subrahmanyan said.

The FGFA is going to be Indias biggest and most ambitious defence project and the largest joint venture with Russia. Earlier this year the two sides completed the preliminary design of the FGFA and are now negotiating a detailed design contract. Mr. Subrahmanyan said he hopes the contract could be signed before the end of the current year.

Four Russian prototypes of the fifth-generation fighter, codenamed T-50 or PAK-FA, have performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010. The Russian Air Force plans to begin inducting the plane in 2015.

HAL is to get three Russian prototypes for re-design and testing in 2015, 2016 and 2017, and will hand over the first series produced aircraft to the IAF in 2019, Mr. Subrahmanyan said.

The FGFA project will take the Indian expertise in aviation technologies to a much higher level.

Weve moved from license production and technology transfer to co-design and co-development, Mr. Subrahmanyan said. He pointed out that India supplies avionics for Su-30 Russia is building for Malaysia and Indonesia.

Co-design offers far greater scope for knowledge sharing compared with license production. In co-design projects all Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) are jointly held by parties involved, Mr. Subrahmanyan added.

India is currently working on two co-design defence projects with Russia  the FGFA and the Multi-role Transport Aircraft, which is already in detailed design stage.

With the West, India has so far had only one co-design project  the Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv, developed with assistance from Germanys MBB.

India to customise Russia's FGFA planes - The Hindu


----------



## he-man

neehar said:


> *India to customise Russia's FGFA planes
> *
> 
> The Indian version of an Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter plane is going to be lighter weight, more powerful and less visible to enemy radars that the original Russian version, according to a senior executive at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> 
> Under a joint project with Russia to build a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) India will modify and customise the prototype Russia has developed independently.
> 
> &#8220;While the Russian version of the FGFA is all-metal, ours will have wings and empennage (vertical and horizontal stabilisers) made of composite materials,&#8221; said S. Subrahmanyan, Managing Director of MiG Complex at HAL.
> 
> *&#8220;The use of composites will reduce the plane&#8217;s weight and give it lower signature. Our version will also have more advanced Indian-made avionics,&#8221;* Mr. Subrahmanyan told The Hindu at the Moscow Air Show-2013. He is leading a HAL delegation to the biannual air show being held this year from August 27 to September 1.
> 
> &#8220;Thanks to these improvements we will get a better and more powerful platform,&#8221; Mr. Subrahmanyan said.
> 
> The FGFA is going to be India&#8217;s biggest and most ambitious defence project and the largest joint venture with Russia. Earlier this year the two sides completed the preliminary design of the FGFA and are now negotiating a detailed design contract. Mr. Subrahmanyan said he hopes the contract could be signed before the end of the current year.
> 
> Four Russian prototypes of the fifth-generation fighter, codenamed T-50 or PAK-FA, have performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010. The Russian Air Force plans to begin inducting the plane in 2015.
> 
> HAL is to get three Russian prototypes for re-design and testing in 2015, 2016 and 2017, and will hand over the first series produced aircraft to the IAF in 2019, Mr. Subrahmanyan said.
> 
> The FGFA project will take the Indian expertise in aviation technologies to a much higher level.
> 
> &#8220;We&#8217;ve moved from license production and technology transfer to co-design and co-development,&#8221; Mr. Subrahmanyan said. He pointed out that India supplies avionics for Su-30 Russia is building for Malaysia and Indonesia.
> 
> &#8220;Co-design offers far greater scope for knowledge sharing compared with license production. In co-design projects all Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) are jointly held by parties involved,&#8221; Mr. Subrahmanyan added.
> 
> India is currently working on two co-design defence projects with Russia &#8211; the FGFA and the Multi-role Transport Aircraft, which is already in detailed design stage.
> 
> With the West, India has so far had only one co-design project &#8211; the Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv, developed with assistance from Germany&#8217;s MBB.
> 
> India to customise Russia's FGFA planes - The Hindu




They can use composites too........the reason they use titanium is

Because composites cannot operate at high temp generated after mach 2 and they are hoping to get a speed of mach 2.25,,,,,Hal should stop bragging,we are talking about sukhoi here(baap of hal)


----------



## 1000VA



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## Gessler



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## he-man

Gessler said:


>



go to maks 2013 thread..........sideways aesa for pakfa posted


----------



## GORKHALI

*And the PIC of the Month*

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## soundHound

This is a one good looking bird.


----------



## Gessler

he-man said:


> go to maks 2013 thread..........sideways aesa for pakfa posted



I've seen that pic on another forum more than a week ago.


----------



## 1000VA



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## ptldM3

fotografersha:


Aviator.ru,

Some terrific hanger pics.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

he-man said:


> They can use composites too........the reason they use titanium is
> 
> Because *composites cannot operate at high temp generated after mach 2* and they are hoping to get a speed of mach 2.25,,,,,Hal should stop bragging,we are talking about sukhoi here(baap of hal)



where did you read that?? Composites are used in Agni missile that goes much beyond Mach 2


----------



## he-man

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> where did you read that?? Composites are used in Agni missile that goes much beyond Mach 2



i was talking specifically about undersection of pakfa near missile bays............and the agni composites are diff from these

i only implied that sukhoi knows what to do and certainly hal has nothing to teach them


----------



## BlueDot_in_Space

he-man said:


> i was talking *specifically about undersection of pakfa near missile bays............and the agni composites are diff from these
> *
> i only implied that sukhoi knows what to do and certainly hal has nothing to teach them



Hmmm...very enlightening indeed . atleast do you your homework before trolling.


----------



## he-man

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Hmmm...very enlightening indeed . atleast do you your homework before trolling.



do u think HAL will make a better version of pakfa than russians without their help??

For god's sake come out of dreams,,,,even prototypes are being made by russians and delivered here


----------



## BlueDot_in_Space

he-man said:


> do u think HAL will make a better version of pakfa than russians without their help??
> 
> For god's sake come out of dreams,,,,even prototypes are being made by russians and delivered here



So when your point is debunked, you hide behind rhetoric. If Russians dont use composites, HAL's version will be better because of use of composites.


----------



## he-man

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> So when your point is debunked, you hide behind rhetoric. If Russians dont use composites, HAL's version will be better because of use of composites.



Seriously!! u believe that..........by the way for ur information russian su-30 sm is way more advanced than mki and it uses more composited too........HAL cannot even design a fighter like pakfa,forget about building it


----------



## BlueDot_in_Space

he-man said:


> Seriously!! u believe that..........by the way for* ur information russian su-30 sm is way more advanced than mki and it uses more composited *too........HAL cannot even design a fighter like pakfa,forget about building it



SU30 sm only adopts SU30 MKI aerodynamic design, but lacks the mix of avionics suits (from france, Israle and India) that SU30MKI has. So in no way SU30 sm can surpasse MKI. 



he-man said:


> * it uses more composited too.*.......



No it does not. but still provide a source.


----------



## he-man

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> SU30 sm only adopts SU30 MKI aerodynamic design, but lacks the mix of avionics suits (from france, Israle and India) that SU30MKI has. So in no way SU30 sm can surpasse MKI.
> 
> 
> 
> No it does not. but still provide a source.



its a fact,,,,will try to find the source though...........it uses HUD from thales,at least thats confirmed

MKI HAS GOT ONLY JAMMERS FROM OUTSIDE,,,,,rest all is russian bro

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/08/su-30sm-makes-public-debut-at-maks-2013/

cockpit is atleast diff than mki and better,,,rest i am still searching


----------



## BlueDot_in_Space

he-man said:


> *its a fact*,,,,will try to find the source though...........it uses HUD from thales,at least thats confirmed
> 
> *MKI HAS GOT ONLY JAMMERS FROM OUTSIDE,,,,,rest all is russian bro*
> 
> Su-30SM makes public debut at MAKS 2013 - The DEW Line
> 
> cockpit is atleast diff than mki and better,,,rest i am still searching



Quit trolling Bro. Go and do some reading.


----------



## he-man

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Quit trolling Bro. Go and do some reading.



why do u come here if u have nothing to post or contribute!!??

U take pride in mki as if we have our own avionics in it...............its still imported


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## Gessler



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## he-man

Gessler said:


>



i think the stealth is good enough..........the engine radar blocker should be good

The only cause of concern is the engines........not at all stealthy from backside,maybe product 30 changes that


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## Arzamas 16

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> So when your point is debunked, you hide behind rhetoric. *If Russians dont use composites*, HAL's version will be better because of use of composites.




You got to be joking me right? 




> Composites are used extensively on the T-50 and* comprise 25% of its weight and almost 70% of the outer surface.*[42] It is estimated that titanium alloy content of the fuselage is 75%



Sukhoi PAK FA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Here in this video for example they are making the PAK-FA's composite wing.









This article is 90% hot air and 10% total BS, and only a person with zero knowledge of aviation would fall for it, every aviation forum that I visit it is laughing at it

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## he-man

Arzamas 16 said:


> You got to be joking me right?
> 
> Composites alone are 25% of PAK FA total weight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sukhoi PAK FA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Here in this video for example they are making the PAK-FA's composite wing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article is 90% hot air and 10% total BS, and only person with zero knowledge of aviation would fall for it, every aviation forum I visit it is laughing at it



true......i have seen the same trend,,,,,and seriously HAL will make something better than sukhoi is leaving ppl in fits


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## SR-91

he-man said:


> true......i have seen the same trend,,,,,and seriously HAL will make something better than sukhoi is leaving ppl in fits



Believe it or not,but India has alot of experience in composite material. India's very first jet,TEJAS MK1, is over 40% composite material and MK2 will be about 70% composite.Don't undermine INDIA in this field and give us credit where we deserve it.

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## kurutoga

Guys, based on this photo the front weapon bay can hold one big long range AAM but I would guess it is too small for two mid range AAMs. What do you think?


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## Yeti

SR-91 said:


> Believe it or not,but India has alot of experience in composite material. India's very first jet,TEJAS MK1, is over 40% composite material and MK2 will be about 70% composite.Don't undermine INDIA in this field and give us credit where we deserve it.




These newbie kids come on PDF without basic knowledge, I doubt he even knows that even Israel buys it's composites for its UAV's from India.

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## kurutoga

Before 2010 it was reported that LCA project is very weight-conscious, so I am not surprised by the wide usage of composite materials. Can you explain the 40% or 70% number is by weight, by surface area, or by volume?



SR-91 said:


> Believe it or not,but India has alot of experience in composite material. India's very first jet,TEJAS MK1, is over 40% composite material and MK2 will be about 70% composite.Don't undermine INDIA in this field and give us credit where we deserve it.


----------



## he-man

Yeti said:


> These newbie kids come on PDF without basic knowledge, I doubt he even knows that even Israel buys it's composites for its UAV's from India.



I refuse to believe that we manufacture better composites than russia.........plain and simple,,,,,,they use extensive titanium for strength purposes and for achieving their target of mach 2.25



kurutoga said:


> Before 2010 it was reported that LCA project is very weight-conscious, so I am not surprised by the wide usage of composite materials. Can you explain the 40% or 70% number is by weight, by surface area, or by volume?



mk2 is not even out and ppl are showing fan boyism already..........this should stop


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## he-man

kurutoga said:


> Guys, based on this photo the front weapon bay can hold one big long range AAM but I would guess it is too small for two mid range AAMs. What do you think?



this is a monstrous anti radar missile Kh-58ushe with a range of 245 km and speed of mach 4 and weight of 1400 pounds!!!


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## Yeti

At the HAL - Composite Manufacturing Division, we work on cutting edge composite technologies and aggressive timelines, which needs every person to be not just responsible, but also passionate and knowledgeable. We were facing a ramp-up lag in our Tool Design Group when *Tata HAL Technologies stepped in*. Their team not only displayed the requisite expertise, but also got completely integrated into the CMD group. It brought us the much needed timeliness and value add to the Tool Design Group."


This is the model for success in growing our domestic defence industry a joint collaboration between state firms and private ones will ensure the future is bright.


----------



## SR-91

kurutoga said:


> Before 2010 it was reported that LCA project is very weight-conscious, so I am not surprised by the wide usage of composite materials. Can you explain the 40% or 70% number is by weight, by surface area, or by volume?



Its by weight.


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## he-man

Yeti said:


> At the HAL - Composite Manufacturing Division, we work on cutting edge composite technologies and aggressive timelines, which needs every person to be not just responsible, but also passionate and knowledgeable. We were facing a ramp-up lag in our Tool Design Group when *Tata HAL Technologies stepped in*. Their team not only displayed the requisite expertise, but also got completely integrated into the CMD group. It brought us the much needed timeliness and value add to the Tool Design Group."
> 
> 
> This is the model for success in growing our domestic defence industry a joint collaboration between state firms and private ones will ensure the future is bright.



Yes it all sounds good but do u believe we have surpassed russia in this field??i agree i have no knowledge of this field but all the other forums are laughing at HAL's supposedely outrageous claim that pakfa is all metal and they will make a better,more powerful version!!



SR-91 said:


> Its by weight.



pls wait till mk 2 comes out............by the way at mach 2.25 u need a lot of metal too in key structural areas and composites might not take the wear and tear..........if that was not the case,why did russia not put more composites??any answers?


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## Yeti

he-man said:


> I refuse to believe that we manufacture better composites than russia.........plain and simple,,,,,,they use extensive titanium for strength purposes and for achieving their target of mach 2.25
> 
> 
> 
> mk2 is not even out and ppl are showing fan boyism already..........this should stop




My friend we have firms like TATA now helping HAL in various manufacturing techniques this will increase our engineering skills going forward.

Have a look at this on what firms like TATA is doing 


Tata Steel builds bid for world speed record - Journal Live


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## he-man

Yeti said:


> My friend we have firms like TATA now helping HAL in various manufacturing techniques this will increase our engineering skills going forward.
> 
> Have a look at this on what firms like TATA is doing
> 
> 
> Tata Steel builds bid for world speed record - Journal Live



Yaar my question is very simple

If this was the case and pakfa or fgfa is a jv then why did russians not use superior materials for a plane they are going to use??

I mean for a nation capable of building aero engines it just dosen't seem plausible that they are behind us in composites!!


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## Yeti

@he-man a 5th gen fighter like the PAK-FA can never be all metal it will contain composites and that video posted by that Russian fellow I have seen before. Sukhoi as a company was formed before India as a country came into being, we Indians are among the smartest people on this planet bar none but why is it we tend to do better in the west and not in India as much? that is the key question which needs to be fixed by our govt babus


BTW it is interesting to note that a Indian-born engineer who worked on the engine design for the B-2 bomber for Northrop sold military secrets for money to the Chinese this shows we are skilled but... as all humans we are flawed too


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## he-man

Yeti said:


> @he-man a 5th gen fighter like the PAK-FA can never be all metal it will contain composites and that video posted by that Russian fellow I have seen before. Sukhoi as a company was formed before India as a country came into being, we Indians are among the smartest people on this planet bar none but why is it we tend to do better in the west and not in India as much? that is the key question which needs to be fixed by our govt babus
> 
> 
> BTW it is interesting to note that a Indian-born engineer who worked on the engine design for the B-2 bomber for Northrop sold military secrets for money to the Chinese this shows we are skilled but... as all humans we are flawed too
> @he-man a 5th gen fighter like the PAK-FA can never be all metal it will contain composites and that video posted by that Russian fellow I have seen before. Sukhoi as a company was formed before India as a country came into being, we Indians are among the smartest people on this planet bar none but why is it we tend to do better in the west and not in India as much? that is the key question which needs to be fixed by our govt babus
> 
> 
> BTW it is interesting to note that a Indian-born engineer who worked on the engine design for the B-2 bomber for Northrop sold military secrets for money to the Chinese this shows we are skilled but... as all humans we are flawed too



I know 25% of pakfa by weight is composites.............i am saying they know what to do(we are talking about sukhoi here!!!)

And the problem is that HAL employee in the article says that pakfa is all metal!!


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## Yeti

he-man said:


> Yaar my question is very simple
> 
> If this was the case and pakfa or fgfa is a jv then why did russians not use superior materials for a plane they are going to use??
> 
> I mean for a nation capable of building aero engines it just dosen't seem plausible that they are behind us in composites!!



Composites and jet engines are entirely different things, they can not be compared. I am not saying Russia is behind us or we are ahead but we do have a advanced composite industry and we can make a vital contribution to this field for our version of the PAK-FA. 

BTW how do u know that we do not have some composite materials that the Russians do not and vice versa


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## he-man

Yeti said:


> Composites and jet engines are entirely different things, they can not be compared. I am not saying Russia is behind us or we are ahead but we do have a advanced composite industry and we can make a vital contribution to this field for our version of the PAK-FA.
> 
> BTW how do u know that we do not have some composite materials that the Russians do not and vice versa



No one can claim anything here but the general feeling tells me we are not at that level yet...............they are making bodies of commercial airliners like sukhoi superjet 100!!What have we done?tejas??


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## Yeti

he-man said:


> No one can claim anything here but the general feeling tells me we are not at that level yet...............they are making bodies of commercial airliners like sukhoi superjet 100!!What have we done?tejas??




Sir HAL is also doing that 


Boeing, HAL Sign Agreement for 777 Flaperon Assembly


NEW DELHI, October 22, 2009 - Boeing [NYSE: BA] and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) of India today signed an agreement at a ceremony here for the production of flaperons for use on Boeing&#8217;s 777 series commercial jetliner. The work will be performed in Bangalore, India. 

* The 777 flaperons are a highly complex composite assembly that is instrumental in controlling the airplane&#8217;s maneuverability in flight. Referred to as a "control surface", flaperons work both as an aileron to control roll and as a flap to control lift.*
"Today&#8217;s agreement represents yet another work package Boeing has placed in India and HAL since we first began our relationship with HAL in 1991, and after having received the first production part from HAL in 1995," said Boeing India President Dinesh Keskar. "The composite 777 flaperon that HAL will produce represents a significant leap forward in technological capability, and supports Boeing&#8217;s strategy to work in partnership with India&#8217;s aerospace industry for the long-term."

BTW Sukhoi got help for that jet too, by the Americans. Everyone can contribute something that's what makes this Indo-Russian project great! we will gain much needed skills from such a huge aero-engineering project like this.


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## he-man

Yeti said:


> Sir HAL is also doing that
> 
> 
> Boeing, HAL Sign Agreement for 777 Flaperon Assembly
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI, October 22, 2009 - Boeing [NYSE: BA] and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) of India today signed an agreement at a ceremony here for the production of flaperons for use on Boeing&#8217;s 777 series commercial jetliner. The work will be performed in Bangalore, India.
> 
> * The 777 flaperons are a highly complex composite assembly that is instrumental in controlling the airplane&#8217;s maneuverability in flight. Referred to as a "control surface", flaperons work both as an aileron to control roll and as a flap to control lift.*
> "Today&#8217;s agreement represents yet another work package Boeing has placed in India and HAL since we first began our relationship with HAL in 1991, and after having received the first production part from HAL in 1995," said Boeing India President Dinesh Keskar. "The composite 777 flaperon that HAL will produce represents a significant leap forward in technological capability, and supports Boeing&#8217;s strategy to work in partnership with India&#8217;s aerospace industry for the long-term."
> 
> BTW Sukhoi got help for that jet too, by the Americans. Everyone can contribute something that's what makes this Indo-Russian project great! we will gain much needed skills from such a huge aero-engineering project like this.



Sure we are building bits and pieces but they are making the whole planes...........no comparison here mate,,,,,pls give credit when its due,indians are behaving very arrogantly with russia off late by claiming all these unsubstantiated things.

And pls do look at the russian aerospace industry too before reading about HAL achievements.

Iam not taking sides but we are clearly way behind them

I do agree that HAL should get a chance to add whatever it feels like,,,,but it should refrain from making tall claims.

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## Yeti

he-man said:


> Sure we are building bits and pieces but they are* making the whole planes*...........no comparison here mate,,,,,pls give credit when its due,indians are behaving very arrogantly with russia off late by claiming all these unsubstantiated things.
> 
> And pls do look at the russian aerospace industry too before reading about HAL achievements.
> 
> Iam not taking sides but we are clearly way behind them
> 
> I do agree that HAL should get a chance to add whatever it feels like,,,,but it should refrain from making tall claims.




With the help of others yes, Boeing helped them with the design of Sukhoi Superjet 100 and like I mentioned before Sukhoi has been around before India as a country was founded of course the Russians will be ahead but that does not mean we can not make contributions also that was the point I was making.


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## Gessler

It's likely FGFA will turn out to have more composite percentage in airframe when compared to
present-day T-50, but even that is hard to say given the fact the composition of materials seems
to be changing with each T-50 prototype, and the final series-production configuration is not yet
known.

However, eventhough India has done quite a lot with composites even with our first fighter, we still
have a long way to go before we arrive at the level of expertise as Russians in this field.

Believe it or not, much of the know-how and know-why regarding composites were given to
India by none other than Russians and to an extent, Italians.

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## he-man

Gessler said:


> It's likely FGFA will turn out to have more composite percentage in airframe when compared to
> present-day T-50, but even that is hard to say given the fact the composition of materials seems
> to be changing with each T-50 prototype, and the final series-production configuration is not yet
> known.
> 
> However, eventhough India has done quite a lot with composites even with our first fighter, we still
> have a long way to go before we arrive at the level of expertise as Russians in this field.
> 
> Believe it or not, much of the know-how and know-why regarding composites were given to
> India by none other than Russians and to an extent, Italians.



I totally agree mate...........we are of late becoming very arrogant and forgetting russian role

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## 1000VA

ÐÐÐÐ¡-2013 - Sukhoiï¼Ð¡ÑÑÐ¾Ð¹ï¼ PAK FA T-50 - YouTube


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## DrSomnath999

*PERSONAL T/R COUNT*

~320

plz count it yourselves

if i am wrong then i need to go & check my eyes urgently

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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> *PERSONAL T/R COUNT*
> 
> ~320
> 
> plz count it yourselves
> 
> if i am wrong then i need to go & check my eyes urgently
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PERSONAL T/R COUNT*
> 
> ~320
> 
> plz count it yourselves
> 
> if i am wrong then i need to go & check my eyes urgently



its 330-370

pls visit and comment
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/275107-happy-times-iaf-ahead-options-galore.html


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## neehar

he-man said:


> They can use composites too........the reason they use titanium is
> 
> Because composites cannot operate at high temp generated after mach 2 and they are hoping to get a speed of mach 2.25,,,,,Hal should stop bragging,we are talking about sukhoi here(baap of hal)



who told u that composites could not resist higher temps??
Heat Resistant, High Temperature Composites, Fire Barriers and Heat Shields
sukhoi is a great organization that doesnt mean we couldnt improve what they've made..mki is an example we have. the difference between fgfa and pakfa would be the difference between the requirements of our respective airforces

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## Gessler

Thanks to *Vritra* for the pics!

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## Gessler



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## Gessler

Gessler said:


>








Has anyone else noticed this? There appears to be a new flap or hatch in the dorsal section, I don't think
the earlier models had this.

What do you guys think that is? A sort of service hatch or something more?

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## dealwithit

it may be air brakes for short landing....

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## Gessler

*PAK-FA Pictures of The Year*











All thanks to *Jo Asakura*!

^^ A close zoom on the cockpits reveals the new HUD is a clean & advanced piece of hardware.

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## Gessler

HUD looks similar to the one on Rafale.

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## Gessler



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## Gessler



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## he-man

Gessler said:


> *PAK-FA Pictures of The Year*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All thanks to *Jo Asakura*!
> 
> ^^ A close zoom on the cockpits reveals the new HUD is a clean & advanced piece of hardware.



its the thales HUD.............or like that,,,even rafale has a wide HUD



Gessler said:


> HUD looks similar to the one on Rafale.



YUP............even su-30sm uses thales wide angled HUD


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## DrSomnath999

*MAKS-2013. Prospects for T-50 are associated with serious problems?*






Demonstration of the fifth-generation fighter T-50 (PAKFA) at the Moscow air show MAKS-2013 showed that Russia has problems with adopting new front-line fighters the Air Force, writes janes.com August 29.


On the opening day on August 27 with the participation of the Prime Minister of Russia Dmitry Medvedev planned to carry out the flight of all four instances of flight T-50, but the show was attended by only three cars. Analysts of the Russian aerospace industry and related structures of note that there are several obstacles that the T-50 must be overcome before it will be considered as a viable design, ready for serial production.


As technology demonstrator of the Su-47 (1990) T-50 should be an example of Russian industrial opportunities for the production of composite structures on a large scale and at a reasonable price. Nevertheless, more than 15 years, composite panels and other components of nodes T 50 are still made in "manual mode". In order to bring the aircraft to a series, the production base factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (KNAAPO) needs substantial investment in modernizing equipment.


Today, T-50 flies on the same turbofan design 117S/AL-41F "Saturn" / KB them. Cradles, which are on the Su-35. This engine was developed in the late 1980s for the program 1.42 (IFIs) in size. Mikoyan, which was canceled. The development teams of "Salute" working on a new turbofan ed. 127/217 state that they have created a "concept and the core of the new engine." An unnamed Russian military analyst at the Moscow Research Center reported INS Jane's, that "will take several years to understand the design and build a new engine."


Meanwhile, the third of the four prototypes of the T-50 is equipped with a new radar NO50 with active electronically scanned array (AESA) NIIP design (Scientific Research Institute of Instrument. Tikhomirov - approx. "VP"), which, according to representatives of some of the participating electronic companies, "in a test flight showed very encouraging and impressive results." The dilemma is that the receiving and transmitting modules (APMs) for radar produced no commercial firm, as in the case of the radar "Zhuk-MA" AFAR, and on the research and production center "Source", which produced microwaves and other technologies to Soviet weapons systems. "Source" is not able to produce antipersonnel mines in production scale, making them unprofitable in the current scheme of production, "the experts say.


In addition, the aircraft has not yet completed a full test program to validate the flight characteristics. There are a number of maneuvers for which algorithms control systems still need to be developed and validated.


One aspect of the T-50 program is to create on-board weapons within schedule and budget funding. August 28, General Director of "Tactical Missiles Corporation" (Tactical Missiles Corporation) Boris Obnosov spoke about the modernization of the existing and development of new-generation aircraft armament. Portages made a pretentious statement that creates new air combat missiles, whose characteristics will be better UR Meteor develop a European company MBDA. However, Obnosov states that all samples of airborne weapons, created as part of the T-50, will also be included in the nomenclature of weapons of Su-35. Against this background, many Russian analysts expect that the Su-35 will be produced in larger quantities than planned, and will be the basis of Russian Air Force fighter aircraft, if enacting the T-50 will move away due to technical problems.


The leaders of the United Aircraft Corporation and the "dry" earlier promised President Vladimir Putin that the T-50 will be ready for commissioning by 2015. "It seems that there is no chance to survive this schedule, therefore, the price of the aircraft is expected to grow as a delay are taken into account in the overall cost of the program," said one analyst.


MAKS-2013 was the first exhibition, which since his election to the presidency in 2000, Putin was absent. There are indications that it is a problem with the T-50 made a "contribution" in his decision not to attend the air show on the opening day.

MAKS-2013. Prospects for T-50 are associated with serious problems? - VPK.name


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## Abingdonboy

A rather interesting read:


Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter

"gold cockpits" are confirmd. 


+wasn't aware a new G-Suit design was being developed for the PAK-FA

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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> A rather interesting read:
> 
> 
> Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter
> 
> "gold cockpits" are confirmd.
> 
> 
> +wasn't aware a new G-Suit design was being developed for the PAK-FA



yes,,,some article came 2 months or so back


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## Gessler

Abingdonboy said:


> A rather interesting read:
> 
> 
> Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter
> 
> "gold cockpits" are confirmd.
> 
> 
> +wasn't aware a new G-Suit design was being developed for the PAK-FA



Prasun Sengupta was the first to inform us about PAK-FA/FGFA's gold-coated canopy.

I think he said that last year itself.


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## S-DUCT



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## Beerbal

Gessler said:


> Prasun Sengupta was the first to inform us about PAK-FA/FGFA's gold-coated canopy.
> 
> I think he said that last year itself.





PSG is big troll, He has made all Tall comments.. some of his comment may hit the Bulls eye, What big in it?


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## Gessler

Beerbal said:


> PSG is big troll, He has made all Tall comments.. some of his comment may hit the Bulls eye, What big in it?



Different people have different opinions on that man...I wonder why.


----------



## Jason bourne

Gessler said:


> Different people have different opinions on that man...I wonder why.



Prahaar fiasco


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## Gessler

Jason bourne said:


> Prahaar fiasco



What happened there?


----------



## Jason bourne

Gessler said:


> What happened there?



Don't remember exactly but he claims may be nirbhay missiles as prahaar first then said its a Israeli missile there are some other blunder also sorry I didn't remember all but that was the reason few pdf member hate him


----------



## he-man

Gessler said:


> Different people have different opinions on that man...I wonder why.



yaar just concentrate on the info he gives............he has good sources

as for his analysis,,,,,its bullshit like many other analysts

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## kurup

Gessler said:


> What happened there?





Jason bourne said:


> Don't remember exactly but he claims may be nirbhay missiles as prahaar first then said its a Israeli missile there are some other blunder also sorry I didn't remember all but that was the reason few pdf member hate him



Actually in the prahar fiasco , he claimed prahar will be based on an Israeli missile later to be proven wrong .

Here is the link : TRISHUL: More Details Emerge About &#8216;Prahaar&#8217;

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## Gessler



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## he-man

Gessler said:


>



where is the place for EOTS pod attachment??


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## Gessler

he-man said:


> where is the place for EOTS pod attachment??



Under the wings I believe. Or maybe it can sit inside the weapon bay,
however the bay door needs to be opened if the pod wants to
see what's happening on the ground below.

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## Sergi

kurup said:


> Actually in the prahar fiasco , he claimed prahar will be based on an Israeli missile later to be proven wrong .
> 
> Here is the link : TRISHUL: More Details Emerge About &#8216;Prahaar&#8217;



Hahahaa and that isn't the only thing 
Sengupta and Shiv claim a lot of things and most of them generally are their own guesses but they always claimed they have inside info 

Did anybody remember MMRCA speculations !!!


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## he-man

Gessler said:


> Under the wings I believe. Or maybe it can sit inside the weapon bay,
> however the bay door needs to be opened if the pod wants to
> see what's happening on the ground below.



This is disappointing man.............should have been made internal


----------



## 1000VA



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## praveen007

*Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA - official patent analysis*
by IKE 29-Jan-2012 00:17





The new Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA Russian fighter is by now quite well known but any official document is certainly welcome. That is the case of the Sukhoi patent that form the basis of this post. Even if it may not bring groundbreaking details, it presents some interesting aspects that may be quite interesting even if they are just raising speculation to fact. This patent document published just yesterday (although submitted by Sukhoi 2 years ago) by the Russian patent office. It presents the general arrangement of the new PAK-FA aircraft, it describes its aerodynamic configuration and function and also some aspects of its design concerning low radar observability. Read below for more details and images.---






The T-50 is a substantial evolution of the Su-27 (T-10) family. It has a main trapezoid wing, all moving horizontal and vertical tails and a new kind of canard-like airfoils in front of the main wing (part 8 in the images). There are also slats, flapperons and ailerons. It is worth noting that only theT-50 along with F-22 are the only operational (or to be operational) fighters that are designed from the start with thrust vectoring. All others (ex Su-30) are adapted with movable nozzles at a later stage of their development.

The patent describes in more depth the operation and role of all aerodynamic surfaces. The fuselage is described as having dogtooth extensions which are similar in shape and role with the leading root extensions (LERX) of many modern jet fighters and popular with Sukhoi. The fuselage houses the engine and their inlets at its edges and in between it is flattened, providing lift and also space for internal payload. The overall shape with the flat central fuselage, smoothly blended wings and integration of thrust vectoring with all movable surfaces consist what Sukhoi characterizes as integral aerodynamic design.

The wings are smoothly jointed with the flat shaped fuselage via a wide chord created by the negative sweep angle of the trailing edge of the wing. This allows for large values of absolute height especially at the root but small values of relative thickness combining good structural integrity with lower drag forces in the trans and supersonic flight.






One of the most innovative features of T-50 is the movable airfoils above and in front of the inlets. They are more similar to the slats of the main wing rather than Su-30s canards. These surfaces can rotate downwards around their rear edge. Similar to wing slats, they are rotated to assist control in high angles of attack (close to 90deg.) by reducing the exposed area to the direction of flight and also preserving lift by turning the influx over the fuselage (in a similar manner where slats have the same effect to the wing). These rotary parts shade the main engine inlets but there are auxiliary inlets at the sidewalls of the inlet tunnels where air can flow in avoiding restrictions.







The main wing is equipped with leading edge slats and also with flapperons and ailerons. The flapperons are used in-phase as flaps in take off and landing and moving differentially as ailerons in transonic and supersonic speed. The wing outer ailerons are used only at very low speeds and at take-off/landing to control roll.






The horizontal tail is all-moving and provides pitch control in all flight regimes by moving in-phase. At supersonic speed it also provides roll control by differential movement.

The vertical tails are also all-moving, a rather unusual approach. There are widely spaced in order to provide the necessary momentum arm but with a smaller surface. They move in-phase to provide yaw control operating as rudders and differentialy to increase drag, acting as an air brake. They are also inclined outwards to reduce the radar visibility in the lateral hemisphere.






Engine placement is a crucial part of T-50s architecture. The two engines are placed wide apart leaving space for payload between them. The air intakes are located similarly on each side of the fuselage and they are beveled in two planes in order to keep the flow attached even at high angles of attack. The air intakes are further apart in respect to the vertical and horizontal planes than the engines thus the ducts are curved. This curvature hides the compressor and reduces the radar signature of the engine in the forward hemisphere, a common practice in many recent (or not so recent) designs.

http://robotpig.net/_images/posts/t50_11.jpg

The engines are also placed at an angle relative to the vertical plane. Their nozzles are faced slightly outwards, this feature along with the significant distance between them and also the inherit use of thrust vectoring assigns a significant portion of the control of the aircraft to them. The thrust vector of each engine is used along with the aerodynamic surfaces to control the aircraft. The two nozzles can deflect the thrust vector by rotating around two axes (elements 15 and 16 at the image) either in common mode or differentially. The angle between their axis and the vertical plane can create rotating moments when different thrust is produced by each engine and also counter-acts the asymmetrical moment each engine creates because of its lateral distance from the longitudinal symmetry axis.






The T-50 doesnt appear to be as stealthy as F-22 an observation we have already stated in a previous post (Sukhoi T-50 - 5th gen. fighter flies). However its design is heavily influenced by low radar visibility requirements even if as the patents states that is contradicting with the demands for high (super) maneuverability and good flight characteristics. This document doesnt go into great details, the T-50 has many surfaces and edges aligned together and as stated above the compressor of each engine is hidden by the curvature of the inlet path created by the inlets two-plane offset. Many small or bigger details found on the 3 prototypes are far removed from stealth requirements, like the nozzle shape or the various air-inlets and exhausts. However like the Su-27 that evolved greatly from the T-10 prototypes to todays Su-35S there is room for gradual improvement, it is still too early.

You can find the full patent from Russian Patent Office in Russian (pdf) or translated. The inspiration to find this link (not very easy because we dont speak Russian!) came from a post by flateric at secretprojects.co.uk forum

(images: KnAAPO/Sukhoi)

*Source*

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## he-man

praveen007 said:


> *Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA - official patent analysis*
> by IKE 29-Jan-2012 00:17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA Russian fighter is by now quite well known but any official document is certainly welcome. That is the case of the Sukhoi patent that form the basis of this post. Even if it may not bring groundbreaking details, it presents some interesting aspects that may be quite interesting even if they are just raising speculation to fact. This patent document published just yesterday (although submitted by Sukhoi 2 years ago) by the Russian patent office. It presents the general arrangement of the new PAK-FA aircraft, it describes its aerodynamic configuration and function and also some aspects of its design concerning low radar observability. Read below for more details and images.---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T-50 is a substantial evolution of the Su-27 (T-10) family. It has a main trapezoid wing, all moving horizontal and vertical tails and a new kind of canard-like airfoils in front of the main wing (part 8 in the images). There are also slats, flapperons and ailerons. It is worth noting that only theT-50 along with F-22 are the only operational (or to be operational) fighters that are designed from the start with thrust vectoring. All others (ex Su-30) are adapted with movable nozzles at a later stage of their development.
> 
> The patent describes in more depth the operation and role of all aerodynamic surfaces. The fuselage is described as having &#8216;dogtooth extensions&#8217; which are similar in shape and role with the leading root extensions (LERX) of many modern jet fighters and popular with Sukhoi. The fuselage houses the engine and their inlets at its edges and in between it is flattened, providing lift and also space for internal payload. The overall shape with the flat central fuselage, smoothly blended wings and integration of thrust vectoring with all movable surfaces consist what Sukhoi characterizes as integral aerodynamic design.
> 
> The wings are smoothly jointed with the flat shaped fuselage via a wide chord created by the negative sweep angle of the trailing edge of the wing. This allows for large values of absolute height especially at the root but small values of relative thickness combining good structural integrity with lower drag forces in the trans and supersonic flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most innovative features of T-50 is the movable airfoils above and in front of the inlets. They are more similar to the slats of the main wing rather than Su-30&#8217;s canards. These surfaces can rotate downwards around their rear edge. Similar to wing slats, they are rotated to assist control in high angles of attack (close to 90deg.) by reducing the exposed area to the direction of flight and also preserving lift by turning the influx over the fuselage (in a similar manner where slats have the same effect to the wing). These rotary parts shade the main engine inlets but there are auxiliary inlets at the sidewalls of the inlet tunnels where air can flow in avoiding restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The main wing is equipped with leading edge slats and also with flapperons and ailerons. The flapperons are used in-phase as flaps in take off and landing and moving differentially as ailerons in transonic and supersonic speed. The wing outer ailerons are used only at very low speeds and at take-off/landing to control roll.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The horizontal tail is all-moving and provides pitch control in all flight regimes by moving in-phase. At supersonic speed it also provides roll control by differential movement.
> 
> The vertical tails are also all-moving, a rather unusual approach. There are widely spaced in order to provide the necessary momentum arm but with a smaller surface. They move in-phase to provide yaw control operating as rudders and differentialy to increase drag, acting as an air brake. They are also inclined outwards to reduce the radar visibility in the lateral hemisphere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Engine placement is a crucial part of T-50&#8217;s architecture. The two engines are placed wide apart leaving space for payload between them. The air intakes are located similarly on each side of the fuselage and they are beveled in two planes in order to keep the flow attached even at high angles of attack. The air intakes are further apart in respect to the vertical and horizontal planes than the engines thus the ducts are curved. This curvature hides the compressor and reduces the radar signature of the engine in the forward hemisphere, a common practice in many recent (or not so recent) designs.
> 
> http://robotpig.net/_images/posts/t50_11.jpg
> 
> The engines are also placed at an angle relative to the vertical plane. Their nozzles are faced slightly outwards, this feature along with the significant distance between them and also the inherit use of thrust vectoring assigns a significant portion of the control of the aircraft to them. The thrust vector of each engine is used along with the aerodynamic surfaces to control the aircraft. The two nozzles can deflect the thrust vector by rotating around two axes (elements 15 and 16 at the image) either in common mode or differentially. The angle between their axis and the vertical plane can create rotating moments when different thrust is produced by each engine and also counter-acts the asymmetrical moment each engine creates because of its lateral distance from the longitudinal symmetry axis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T-50 doesn&#8217;t appear to be as stealthy as F-22 an observation we have already stated in a previous post (Sukhoi T-50 - 5th gen. fighter flies). However its design is heavily influenced by low radar visibility requirements even if as the patents states that is contradicting with the demands for high (&#8220;super&#8221 maneuverability and good flight characteristics. This document doesn&#8217;t go into great details, the T-50 has many surfaces and edges aligned together and as stated above the compressor of each engine is hidden by the curvature of the inlet path created by the inlet&#8217;s two-plane offset. Many small or bigger details found on the 3 prototypes are far removed from stealth requirements, like the nozzle shape or the various air-inlets and exhausts. However like the Su-27 that evolved greatly from the T-10 prototypes to today&#8217;s Su-35S there is room for gradual improvement, it is still too early.
> 
> You can find the full patent from Russian Patent Office in Russian (pdf) or translated. The inspiration to find this link (not very easy because we don&#8217;t speak Russian!) came from a post by &#8220;flateric&#8221; at secretprojects.co.uk forum
> 
> (images: KnAAPO/Sukhoi)
> 
> *Source*



man this thing is OLD as hell,,,,probably a fossil by now(this patent i mean)


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## praveen007

he-man said:


> man this thing is OLD as hell,,,,probably a fossil by now(this patent i mean)



yes i know its old but i dont find this artical here, that's why i posted it...

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## he-man

praveen007 said:


> yes i know its old but i dont find this artical here, that's why i posted it...



its appreciated man,,,keep up the work


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## he-man

wicked!!!

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## Gessler



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## he-man

some details...............anyone??





@Flamingo

can u translate??


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## he-man

more....


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## Parul

he-man said:


> some details...............anyone??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Flamingo
> 
> can u translate??


 @he-man I don't know *T* of Technicality of Fighter Plane. Therefore, it's cumbersome for me to explain everything. I'll give it an attempt in evening. I can right away tell you what's written in the Bullet Points in the 2nd Picture.


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## he-man

Flamingo said:


> @he-man I don't know *T* of Technicality of Fighter Plane. Therefore, it's cumbersome for me to explain everything. I'll give it an attempt in evening. I can right away tell you what's written in the Bullet Points in the 2nd Picture.



plssssssssss


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## Parul

he-man said:


> plssssssssss



_The text of both the Pictures is Same._Heading of the article: _Integrated transmission line antenna system Aist-50 N destroyer of the 5th generation_

The Bullet Points: 

1.	Functioning Subsystem connection, Navigation, Recognition and induction.

2.	Radar perceptibility lowering and aerodynamic resistance at the expense of conformal construction of all antennas.

3.	Double reduction of antennas amount at the expense, using one antenna by few systems LA (?!) and by using switching-dividing and frequency separation arrangements. 

4.	Efficient choice of antennas with the biggest/highest power factor on the right direction.


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## he-man

Flamingo said:


> _The text of both the Pictures is Same._Heading of the article: _Integrated transmission line antenna system Aist-50 N destroyer of the 5th generation_
> 
> The Bullet Points:
> 
> 1.	Functioning Subsystem connection, Navigation, Recognition and induction.
> 
> 2.	Radar perceptibility lowering and aerodynamic resistance at the expense of conformal construction of all antennas.
> 
> 3.	Double reduction of antennas amount at the expense, using one antenna by few systems LA (?!) and by using switching-dividing and frequency separation arrangements.
> 
> 4.	Efficient choice of antennas with the biggest/highest power factor on the right direction.



thanks.................


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## Parul

he-man said:


> thanks.................



There are couple of Russian Members on PDF. In future, you can Quote them for Translation, as I don't know technicalities of the _Subject_. Moreover. it's too Taxing and Boring  Poka


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## he-man

Flamingo said:


> There are couple of Russian Members on PDF. In future, you can Quote them for Translation, as I don't know technicalities of the _Subject_. Moreover. it's too Taxing and Boring  Poka



u are shying away from national duty??


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## kurup

Flamingo said:


> _The text of both the Pictures is Same._Heading of the article: _Integrated transmission line antenna system Aist-50 N destroyer of the 5th generation_
> 
> The Bullet Points:
> 
> 1.	Functioning Subsystem connection, Navigation, Recognition and induction.
> 
> 2.	Radar perceptibility lowering and aerodynamic resistance at the expense of conformal construction of all antennas.
> 
> 3.	Double reduction of antennas amount at the expense, using one antenna by few systems LA (?!) and by using switching-dividing and frequency separation arrangements.
> 
> 4.	Efficient choice of antennas with the biggest/highest power factor on the right direction.



You know Russian ....

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## he-man

@Flamingo

ur new assignment............pls pls pls


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## he-man

new info on pakfa' DAS'

Concern Enterprises conduct research and development work on the brand EW and SIGINT systems of new generation, including:

Design of ultra-wideband, with a range of operating frequencies 2-18 GHz mirror antenna systems with stabilized frequency radiation patterns (ROC "Sakhalin", the prime contractor - All-Russian Scientific Research Institute "Gradient");
create a spatially distributed electronic warfare aircraft systems, adaptive to the composition and functioning of radar control systems for weapons of the enemy, together with digital processing and distributed formation of coherent interference signals for unmanned aerial vehicles 6th generation (ROC "Himalaya", the prime contractor - Kaluga Research Radio Engineering Institute);
 creation of EW with ultra-wideband (two to three octaves) solid-state transceiver modules and broadband digital processing of radio signals based on multi-beam (at least four simultaneously formed beams) antenna arrays for decimeter (1-6 GHz), centimeter (6-18 GHz) and millimeter wave (32-40 GHz) wavelength ranges for aircraft of the 5th generation, including the PAK-FA, Su-35s (ROC "Ricochet" and "Rank", the prime contractor - KRRTI);
introduction of industrial technology for unified series of foster microwave devices with advanced (60 dB and above), the dynamic range of the received signals, providing bespropuskovy reception with a high probability of receiving and accurate determination of the parameters of the received signals in a deliberate restriction of time and change the light distribution zone of the opponent ( OCD "Piston", the prime contractor - Taganrog Research Institute of Communications);
create the basic hardware and software modules for real-time monitoring and detection of radio signals with a complex signal-code design (OCD 'Slipway', the prime contractor - Design office on Spectrum Monitoring control systems, navigation and communication);
design and manufacture of high-precision equipment for digital RTR provides including the ability to use precision-guided weapons on sources of radio emission (ROC "Ship's Bell", the prime contractor - Design office on Spectrum Monitoring control systems, navigation and communication);
create a spatially distributed radar systems secretive air and ground targets on the basis of the active phased array radar and passive systems in the meter and decameter (ROC "bullet", "Indignation-1", "Duga-1", "Leader-SV", head- Artist - Design office on Spectrum Monitoring control systems, navigation and communication). 
@Dillinger @Abingdonboy @S-DUCT @Gessler
help me out here!!
@


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## Parul

@he-man it's an advertisement on PAK-FA and it's engine . _It says 'A multi-function vehicle-borne digital interrogator with active phased array antenna'_  

I don't know plane terminology of course

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## he-man

something on pakfa radar

The head of Phazotron-NIIR, Yuri Guskov, stated the development time for the 3D GaN radar would be less than the 5 years taken for 'Zhuk AE'. It was awarded after a competitive tender for a government contract and given that it is being marketed for 'any platform' then I would say PAK-FA would be a prime candidate, especially if development is completed ~2017/18. Imho, we won't see serial PAK-FA's before 2018. Tikhomirov-NIIP would simply purchase the GaN modules from the production facility and integrate them onto the N036, Phazotron may share/assist with hardware integration development & software source code as both radar houses will soon be consolidated under the government stakeholding 'Roselektronika' («&#1056;&#1086;&#1089;&#1101;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;»), and given the national importance of the T-50 programme.

this would be that GaN RADAR






BLADES MADE OF COMPOSITES

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## S-DUCT

@he-man
Nice find.

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## he-man

fga-35 radar






Pls look for 2 rectangular yellow box like structures at 3'o clock and 6'o clock position

rumour is that these are passive detection antennas


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## Robinhood Pandey

kurup said:


> I don't think there is a picture of T-50 with open weapon bays .





i have seen few pics of T 50 with an open weapon bay on google, don't know if they are fake or real


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## Gessler

chak de INDIA said:


> i have seen few pics of T 50 with an open weapon bay on google, don't know if they are fake or real



All such images are fake. T-50 hasn't opened it's bays in front of a camera as yet.


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## Robinhood Pandey

Gessler said:


> All such images are fake. T-50 hasn't opened it's bays in front of a camera as yet.



ok !!


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## SpArK



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## That Guy

Sukhois have always looked beautiful to me, the T-50 looks like a work of art.

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## Gessler



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## Dillinger

@Abingdonboy @S-DUCT 











Interesting video, "golden canopy" (iridium tin and gold coating) and a unconventional "s-duct" design shown.

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## Gessler

Gessler said:


>








Hmmm...yellow-tinted piece of glass. Apertures for MAWS, I presume?
@Dillinger @Abingdonboy @kurup Need your opinion.


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## Gessler

*Sukhoi T-50 Refueling from Ilyushin Il-78 aircraft*

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## Raje amar

MMRCA is getting delayed beyond its boundary. Soon it will be useless and costly to block 20bil in it.
Better we focus on PAK FA and LCA MK2. The 20bil will add more value in it.


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## kurup

Gessler said:


> Hmmm...yellow-tinted piece of glass. Apertures for MAWS, I presume?
> @Dillinger @Abingdonboy @kurup Need your opinion.



Looks like you are right buddy .

_On the fuselage sides of the t-50-4, just aft of the cockpit, two sensors are mounted to serve the 101Ks-U ultra-violet missile approach warning system (MaWs) together with two further 101Ks-U sensors fitted previously (on the third example) *under the nose* and atop the tail boom, the system provides observation of airspace all around the aircraft._

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## DrSomnath999

^^Lollz 

funny my pics do provide info to everyone 


*CHEERS*

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## RPK

*Antony to take up issues related to FGFA project with Russia - The New Indian Express*

Not happy with its share of work in the multi-billion dollar Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project with Russia, India is expected to flag the issue with that country during Defence Minister A K Antony's visit there next month.

Though India is investing 50 per cent of the cost of the multi-billion dollar programme, its work share in the research and development and other aspects of the programme at the moment is only around 15 per cent, IAF officials said here.

The Defence Minister is expected to flag this issue during his Russia visit beginning November 15 as this will have an impact on India's indigenous capabilities to develop such an advanced fighter aircraft, they said.

The IAF expressed its objection over the issue at a CII event on energising aerospace sector in India.

"We have a major opportunity in the FGFA programme. At the moment it is not very much in favour of Indian development. We are flagging it through the Government. It should be much more focused towards indigenous development capability," IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal S Sukumar said here.

The senior IAF officer was commenting on the programme and the opportunities that it could provide for the Indian defence sector.

The FGFA is a joint venture programme between India and Russia and its preliminary design phase was completed recently.

The programme is expected to cost over 1.5 lakh crore to the Government. The two sides are now in discussion over the main Research and Development part of the programme, which


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## longlong

kurup said:


> Looks like you are right buddy .
> 
> _On the fuselage sides of the t-50-4, just aft of the cockpit, two sensors are mounted to serve the 101Ks-U ultra-violet missile approach warning system (MaWs) together with two further 101Ks-U sensors fitted previously (on the third example) *under the nose* and atop the tail boom, the system provides observation of airspace all around the aircraft._



Looks it will block the AESA's downward waves ---- but I think it will not.


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## kurup

longlong said:


> Looks *it will block the AESA's downward waves* ---- but I think it will not.



I am sure the designers of PAK-FA have took that into consideration before placing it there .


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## Gessler

longlong said:


> Looks it will block the AESA's downward waves ---- but I think it will not.



AESA waves are electronically steered. The radar lobe does not need to look down in order to see down.

The waves can be steered in the desired direction even after exiting the lobe, no worry.


----------



## longlong

Gessler said:


> AESA waves are electronically steered. The radar lobe does not need to look down in order to see down.
> 
> The waves can be steered in the desired direction even after exiting the lobe, no worry.



Any metal parts sized bigger than half of the wave length will block (redirect/absorb) it. 

That's why we have no pitot to tip the radome on a AESA equipped aircraft.

Scanning range of T-50 radar can be calculated easily base on this.


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## Gessler

longlong said:


> Any metal parts sized bigger than half of the wave length will block (redirect/absorb) it.
> 
> That's why we have no pitot to tip the radome on a AESA equipped aircraft.
> 
> Scanning range of T-50 radar can be calculated easily base on this.



You also need to measure the power being output. Even this changes when the radar uses compression,
where it increases it's scan rate and scan range in a particular sector by paying less attention to
targets which have already been seen & marked by the computer, leaving more power to search for new,
smaller RCS targets.



longlong said:


> Any metal parts sized bigger than half of the wave length will block (redirect/absorb) it.
> 
> That's why we have no pitot to tip the radome on a AESA equipped aircraft.
> 
> Scanning range of T-50 radar can be calculated easily base on this.



You also need to measure the power being output. Even this changes when the radar uses compression,
where it increases it's scan rate and scan range in a particular sector by paying less attention to
targets which have already been seen & marked by the computer, leaving more power to search for new,
smaller RCS targets.


----------



## longlong

Gessler said:


> You also need to measure the power being output. Even this changes when the radar uses compression,
> where it increases it's scan rate and scan range in a particular sector by paying less attention to
> targets which have already been seen & marked by the computer, leaving more power to search for new,
> smaller RCS targets.
> 
> 
> 
> You also need to measure the power being output. Even this changes when the radar uses compression,
> where it increases it's scan rate and scan range in a particular sector by paying less attention to
> targets which have already been seen & marked by the computer, leaving more power to search for new,
> smaller RCS targets.



Thanks for reply.

Will it create blind-spot below the front where great chance the A2A missile come from?

Or the "blind spot" were monitored by the said MaWs there?


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## Gessler

longlong said:


> Thanks for reply.
> 
> Will it create blind-spot below the front where great chance the A2A missile come from?
> 
> Or the "blind spot" were monitored by the said MaWs there?



No. The waves are steered clear. Additionally, it has 2 additional AESA radars
in the sides which can see those targets that are out of view of the front AESA.


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## sancho

longlong said:


> Thanks for reply.
> 
> Will it create blind-spot below the front where great chance the A2A missile come from?
> 
> Or the "blind spot" were monitored by the said MaWs there?



The system includes sensors to the front and the back under the cockpit and the tailsting:

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## vostok

D.A. Medvedev in the workshop of Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft plant named after Yuri Gagarin on the background of the fifth flight of a prototype fighter PAK FA - aircraft T-50-5. 24.10.2013. The T-50-5 made its first run in the strip on 25 October and should make its first flight in the next few days

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## IND151

*India’s share in research-and-development work for the joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project with Russia is currently limited by India’s domestic industrial capabilities but will gradually increase with the project’s implementation, a Russian military expert said Friday.*

India’s The Economic Times newspaper reported on October 17 that Indian military officials were concerned over the country’s work share in the FGFA project, which is currently only 15 percent even though New Delhi is bearing 50 percent of the cost.

According to the paper, India’s defense minister is expected to raise that issue during his visit to Russia beginning November 15.

“The figure cited by the Indian side reflects current capabilities of India’s industry, in particular the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] corporation,” said Igor Korotchenko, head of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Global Arms Trade.

“*With the progress in the implementation of this project, we expect the Indian engineers and designers to approach the share determined in the [Russian-Indian] agreement: 50 percent*,” Korotchenko said in an exclusive interview with RIA Novosti.

Russia will certainly provide all necessary knowledge and logistics support to Indian specialists, but developing skills and acquiring experience in design and development of advanced fighter aircraft takes a long time and substantial effort, the expert added.

The FGFA project began following a Russian-Indian agreement on cooperation in the development and production of the perspective multirole fighter, signed on October 18, 2007.

The Indian fighter jet will be based on the Russian single-seat Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, which now has four prototypes flying, but it will be designed to meet about 50 specific requirements by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

In December 2010, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russian aircraft maker Sukhoi Company signed a preliminary design development contract worth $295 million for the new aircraft.

Currently the $11 billion final design and research-and-development contract is under negotiation between the two countries. The total program is expected to cost India about $25 billion to 30 billion.

*The IAF had initially planned to order 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters, but India’s chief of air staff said in October last year that New Delhi would now go for only 144 single-seat jets, with domestic production slated to begin in 2020*.


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## vostok

Another T-50 took to the air

The fifth prototype fighter of the 5th generation T-50 made its first flight.

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## DrSomnath999

link plz


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## Gessler

5th T-50 prototype in the air.

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## vostok



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## IND151

*The fifth prototype of the prospective 5th — generation aviation complex (PAK FA, T-50) made its maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur at the Y.A.Gagarin KnAAZ aircraft plant of the Sukhoi Company*. The plane was piloted by distinguished test pilot of the 1st class Roman Kondratiev. The fighter aircraft spent 50 minutes in the air and landed safely on the factory airfield runway. The test flight was a success and in full accordance with the flight plan. The stability of the aircraft and the propulsion system were tested during the flight. The aircraft performed well in all phases of the planned flight program. The pilot confirmed reliability of all systems and equipment.

Upon completing the test flights program in Komsomolsk the aircraft will join the flight tests in the city of Zhukovsky near Moscow. Four 5th — generation fighter aircraft have already joined these tests. Two more planes are involved in ground tests — one as a complex ground stand and the other undergoes static tests.

The first flight of the PAK FA took place on January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. Currently work is underway on the full range of ground and flight tests. To date, more than 450 flights were carried out under the flight test program.

http://idrw.org/?p=28720


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## ejaz007

*Oct 21/13: Indian complaints.* Aviation Week reports that India is dissatisfied with their development workshare, in a project they came late to and is close to lockdown on their partner’s side, for which they have only recently managed to produce anything resembling their specifications (q.v. April 10/13):

“We have a major opportunity in the FGFA program,” Indian air force (IAF) Deputy Chief Air Marshal S. Sukumar says. However, “at the moment [the 15% development share] is not very much in favor of Indian development. We are flagging it through the government. It should be much more focused towards indigenous development capability.”

As Aviation Week points out, 4 Russian T50 prototypes have performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010, and the VVF plans to begin inducting the fighter in 2015-2016. That doesn’t leave a ton of room for development, which requires fast decisions that begin the partnership early, when the design is still very much in need of refinement. India’s desires and its modus operandi are once again in conflict, and the question is whether the dichotomy will become a stumbling block in negotiations for the final $11 billion system development contract. At this point, the only way to square that circle would be to increase the number of differences between the Russian and Indian fighters, or to involve India in developing a “Block 10″ type successor to a fighter whose core technologies are already a huge stretch for them. Either approach would drive up overall costs for the contract under negotiation (q.v. July 15/13), and add substantial risk to India’s plans to begin manufacturing at HAL in 2022 – itself a problematic proposition, given HAL’s record. Sources: Aviation Week, “India Concerned About Fifth-Gen Fighter Work Share With Russia”.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-russia-in-negotiations-re-nextgeneration-fighter-03133/


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## sancho

Some changes are visible:

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## DrSomnath999

@ Sancho

1st part u have posted 2 same pics edit it , but yes u are correct

2nd & 3rd part are neglible changes though

But strange the russians havent done a proper paintshop this time

It reminds me of 1st prototype . This was thought to be used for weapon trials i think

*CHEERS*


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## Gessler

DrSomnath999 said:


> @ Sancho
> 
> 1st part u have posted 2 same pics edit it , but yes u are correct
> 
> 2nd & 3rd part are neglible changes though
> 
> But strange the russians havent done a proper paintshop this time
> 
> It reminds me of 1st prototype . This was thought to be used for weapon trials i think
> 
> *CHEERS*



All prototypes have the usual yellow + grey paint during the first flight I suppose. Even the
4th prototype had same paint scheme as the 5th one you see now, but later on it receives
the blue/grey/white scheme and Russian STAR insignia.

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> @ Sancho
> 
> 1st part u have posted 2 same pics edit it , but yes u are correct
> 
> 2nd & 3rd part are neglible changes though
> 
> But strange the russians havent done a proper paintshop this time
> 
> It reminds me of 1st prototype . This was thought to be used for weapon trials i think
> 
> *CHEERS*



No I didn't, both pics are from the same side, but from different angles.

Not at all, since these are the first aerodynamical changes of the T50 and it should be interesting why they made these changes.

As Gessler said, the first flight was always done without painting.


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## DrSomnath999

*Interview of Tikhomirov-NIIP Director General Yuri Bely from take off ru March 2013*





















*CHEERS*

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## Gessler



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## vostok



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## DrSomnath999

The Stealth value of a stealth plane is highly classified thing no body knows / it is a highly classified data .

but the western standard of RCS value is considerably lesser than russian value of RCS value .

simple examples i can give 



> *1)Vladimir Zagorodnii, chief designer of "Vladimir Tikhomirov NIIP" said*
> 
> It is interesting to compare the "dueling" possibilities of aviation systems 27SM2-Su (Su-35) and the F-22A «Dry" equipped with "Irbis", can detect a target with RCS of 0.1-0.5 m2 (approximately in this range is the value of the effective radar scattering surface unobtrusive Aircraft Lockheed Martin F/A-22A) at a distance of 165-240 km. At the same time, the American fighter "sees" his opponent with RCS of 1 m2 at a distance of only 200 km (Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2005-2006). Thus, the low-profile "Raptor" with its AESA radar on board of the complex does not have any real advantages over the modernized "dry" in a dogfight missile for "vnevizualnoy" range. "Vladimir Zagorodnii, chief designer of "Vladimir Tikhomirov NIIP" The minimum effective area of the cross section (RCS) are targeted through "Irbis" targets is 0.01 m2 (parameter corresponding to the EPR sverhmalozametnogo
> aircraft type American strategic cruise missiles ACM AGM-129).
> "http://translate.google.co.in/trans...viewforum.jsp?page=4&id=57&xid=879291&act=url






> *2)Alexander Davydenko, chief designer of OKB
> The chief designer Alexander Davydenko aircraft indirectly hinted at the size of the effective area of the cross section (RCS) of the future fighter. According to him, the old generation EPR aircraft (such as the Su-27) is about 12 m ², whereas the F-22A Raptor, it is in the range of 0.3-0.4 m ². EPR PAK FA "will not exceed the parameters F-22A, it will be very close to them.*"
> http://translate.google.co.in/trans...://www.inosmi.ru/army/20100313/158588233.html





> *3)AN Lagarkov. Director of the Institute of Theoretical and Applied Electrodynamics.*
> All of the above technological development is carried out in our country and in leading foreign countries. We demonstrate the global trend of the radar signature of supersonic maneuverable aircraft (Fig. 6). *If in the 1980s, aircraft such as the F-15 had an ESR of more than 10 m2 then modernized aviation complex EPR is 1-1.5 m2, while promising fifth-generation aircraft systems such as the F-22, JSF, - 0.3 m2. An even smaller value of the EPR in the modernized Russian MiG-21.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://translate.google.co.in/trans...prikladnye_problemy_stels-tehnologii/&act=url




*meanwhile if u read the western sources article they have relatively very lesser value of RCS of F22 & 4.5th gen plane standards take for example KAAPO from air power australia articles *


*SO NOW EVERYONE CAN APPRECIATE THAT RUSSIAN CLAIM OF 0.5 M2 RCS IS NOT SO BAD AFTER ALL FOR STEALTH PLANES*


*CHEERS*


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## IND151

http://idrw.org/?p=28906

@sancho @DrSomnath999 > any news on radar blockers for Pak Fa?

Also I rae that S type air intake made B-1B less observable (hidden fanblades) but reduced its max speed too. Is this applicable to fighter jets like F-22 and Pak Fa?


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## DrSomnath999

IND151 said:


> http://idrw.org/?p=28906
> 
> @sancho @DrSomnath999 > any news on radar blockers for Pak Fa?
> 
> Also I rae that S type air intake made B-1B less observable (hidden fanblades) but reduced its max speed too. Is this applicable to fighter jets like F-22 and Pak Fa?



Nope No news yet as it's engine has not been finalized yet


See
I beleive PAK-FA doesnt need radar blockers at all 

as even SU 35 has achieved some stealth reductions it's air intake & Engine compressor face 
even if it may be straight air intake showing full engine compressor face meanwhile PAK_FA air intakes are canted( slant) & exposing 1/3 rd of compressor face compare to SU 35
the (RCS treated?) front end of the 117S (117C):







On top of it there are many russian sources of non metallic engines blades being developed Who knows??


*CHEERS*


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## sancho



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## ptldM3

New paint job, supposedly dark bottom and light top. Sukhoi is keeping the tradition of god awful, appallingly gross and plainly retarded paint schemes. 

let's see, they have the smurf green, the top black bottom smurf, multiple blues, gloss black (stupid), and the funky hipster pak-fa with two tone grey and a big white blob in the middle.

Whoever comes up with these paint combos should be arrested.

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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> New paint job, supposedly dark bottom and light top.



Sure about that? Recent Su 35 and Su 34 paint jobs were the other way around:











Could be wrong, but it might have to do with high flying at day and low flying at night don't you think? The blue bottom should make the fighter less visible from the ground, compared to a blue sky at day times. Similarly, the dark top should make it less visible from the sky, compared to the dark ground or?


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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> Sure about that? Recent Su 35 and Su 34 paint jobs were the other way around:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could be wrong, but it might have to do with high flying at day and low flying at night don't you think? The blue bottom should make the fighter less visible from the ground, compared to a blue sky at day times. Similarly, the dark top should make it less visible from the sky, compared to the dark ground or?





Latest eye witness reports say that it is simply dark. This could still mean that the bottom half could be painted smurf green but hopefully not. If the entire aircraft is dark this could mean that the aircraft is treated with RAM, which would mean that the 5th prototype could be used to test and validate RCS outside of what was done in labs. Or Sukhoi just got bored with the current paint.

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## Goodbye!

Looks like a lot got said there. Translations anyone?


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## he-man

cb7bs2 said:


> Looks like a lot got said there. Translations anyone?


there are captions in the video...............turn them on

it just states that pakfa will look lke a tennis ball i radar compared to mki that looks like a football


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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> If the entire aircraft is dark this could mean that the aircraft is treated with RAM, which would mean that the 5th prototype could be used to test and validate RCS outside of what was done in labs.



Wouldn't it be more logical to test the RCS with a somewhat final config for the external shape, before adding coatings? I mean the T55 obviously tests new optical sensors, while others were deleted again, which not only capability of the sensors are tested, but possibly different locations too. So without all sensors or parts installed that can affect the RCS, it wouldn't make much sense to do tests in this regard now right?

Btw, do you have any idea what these parts could be, or what could be integrated in them later?

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 108

http://s7.directupload.net/images/131110/4givtb7d.jpg


Also, do you have any new infos on the weapon bays and their size? Do you also think that they differ in dept and if so, any possibility that the frontal bay could offer comparable configs like the YF23:

http://www.yf-23.net/Pics/Walkaround/Weapons Bay/PAV2 weapons bay fwd 1 623.jpg

http://www.yf-23.net/Pics/Plans/PAV1 weapons bay schematic 1023.gif


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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> Wouldn't it be more logical to test the RCS with a somewhat final config for the external shape, before adding coatings?




The aircraft had been designed for reduced RCS, we know from past experience that the aircraft had likely been subject to software analysis even Kopp ran the pak-fa through physical optics test. Apart from that static tests had probably been conducted. Like I said the new paint could be just that--paint. For all we know there are still changes to be made to the aircraft, but if it is RAM it could be to test it's durability in real world conditions.






sancho said:


> Btw, do you have any idea what these parts could be, or what could be integrated in them later?
> 
> Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 108
> 
> http://s7.directupload.net/images/131110/4givtb7d.jpg




I don't know.




sancho said:


> Also, do you have any new infos on the weapon bays and their size? Do you also think that they differ in dept and if so, any possibility that the frontal bay could offer comparable configs like the YF23:
> 
> http://www.yf-23.net/Pics/Walkaround/Weapons Bay/PAV2 weapons bay fwd 1 623.jpg
> 
> http://www.yf-23.net/Pics/Plans/PAV1 weapons bay schematic 1023.gif




Only a few people would know that, but based on the depth of the fuselage I wouldn't expect them to have a depth much deeper then what is seen on the YF-23.

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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Wouldn't it be more logical to test the RCS with a somewhat final config for the external shape, before adding coatings? I mean the T55 obviously tests new optical sensors, while others were deleted again, which not only capability of the sensors are tested, but possibly different locations too. So without all sensors or parts installed that can affect the RCS, it wouldn't make much sense to do tests in this regard now right?



some russian members in russian defence net had said there would be a separate model for RCS evaluations .These protypes what we are seeing are just for aerodynamics ,sensor evaluation & later
engine & weapon trials

But for RCS evaluation model would not be displayed .



sancho said:


> Btw, do you have any idea what these parts could be, or what could be integrated in them later?
> 
> Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 108
> 
> http://s7.directupload.net/images/131110/4givtb7d.jpg







first image,- conformal antennas of some navigation system

2nd image-3 UV-50 chaff& flares dispensers in the beaver tail (one facing down).

confirmed in KEY PUB forums




sancho said:


> *Also, do you have any new infos on the weapon bays and their size? Do you also think that they differ in dept and if so, any possibility that the frontal bay could offer comparable configs like the *YF23:
> 
> http://www.yf-23.net/Pics/Walkaround/Weapons Bay/PAV2 weapons bay fwd 1 623.jpg
> 
> http://www.yf-23.net/Pics/Plans/PAV1 weapons bay schematic 1023.gif



that is too much of an asking to someone to be honest 

no one can say those until & unless we see a similiar kind of pics of J20 weapon trials


*CHEERS *

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> 2nd image-3 UV-50 chaff& flares dispensers in the beaver tail (one facing down).



The one facing down is visible on some pics and would be comparable to the one on the Su 34, however, the two locations that I marked are facing not upwards like it is the case for the MKI or Su 35, but slightly to the outside. For flare dispencers that would be strange, especially since the TVNs are in that direction too.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> The one facing down is visible on some pics and would be comparable to the one on the Su 34, however, the two locations that I marked are facing not upwards like it is the case for the MKI or Su 35, but slightly to the outside. For flare dispencers that would be strange, especially since the TVNs are in that direction too.


i think they are engine coolants


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## sancho



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## he-man

sancho said:


>



the upper body is already flawless

the only change i need would be in the engines,,ie type 30

if the enine is compact and smaller than this one,it would make loads of diff and acc to russian sources the new engine will be about 150 kg lighter than current product 117


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## ptldM3

It has been know for a little while but for those that are not aware, there will be two T-50-6 airframes. 

T-50-6-1
T-50-6-2

One airframe is for static tests so likely some changes either internally or externally will be seen on the T-50-6. My personal guess and opinion is that most of it will be internal I also think that the aft nacelles will see some changes since the rear landing gear bays have no serrations while the rest of the aircraft bays have full serrations. To me this means that the rear landing gear bays which are blended into the nacelles have been temporary so far.

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## Sergi

Th


ptldM3 said:


> It has been know for a little while but for those that are not aware, there will be two T-50-6 airframes.
> 
> T-50-6-1
> T-50-6-2
> 
> One airframe is for static tests so likely some changes either internally or externally will be seen on the T-50-6. My personal guess and opinion is that most of it will be internal I also think that the aft nacelles will see some changes since the rear landing gear bays have no serrations while the rest of the aircraft bays have full serrations. To me this means that the rear landing gear bays which are blended into the nacelles have been temporary so far.


thats strange ..... Why not T-50-7 ???

Any ways can you summerise the changes per test vehicle ??? That would be great for people like me who arent regular PDF visiters.


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## jiki

may be not posted before eager to get some recent developments after tomorrow antony jnt meeting :
*Indo-Russian military aviation projects on schedule: HAL executive*



Code:


http://indrus.in/economics/2013/08/29/indo-russian_military_aviation_projects_on_schedule_hal_executive_28907.html


“*The FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft) is on the right track and on schedule,” R. P. Chakraborty, Deputy General Manager (IMM) at HAL said on Wednesday.

When asked about the delays in the project, Chakraborty said they were on account of the design documentation in the contract, an issue that has already been resolved. The contract to develop a sketch and technical project of the fighter was completed in April 2013.

“A team of Indians is already in Russia and a Russian team is already in the design centre to go ahead with the work on the design,” Chakraborty said.

While emphasising that schedules are being met for the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA), a medium-lift military transport aircraft, Chakraborty said there is a greater urgency to develop the FGFA. “Both Russia and India need the FGFA…but in the case of MTA, it’s not the Russian government that requires it. We need it,” he said*

sth abt su30mki also::

The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI, a heavy, all-weather, long-range fighter is being assembled under license by HAL. “140 of these aircrafts are being upgraded now,” Chakraborty said, adding the planes would have stronger radars, greater avionic sub-systems and an upgraded weapons system with an improvement in missile firing integration and firing.

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## ptldM3

Sergi said:


> Th
> 
> thats strange ..... Why not T-50-7 ???
> 
> Any ways can you summerise the changes per test vehicle ??? That would be great for people like me who arent regular PDF visiters.



There will be a T-50-7 and T-50-8. There hasn't been many changes externally other then the LERX being slightly redesigned and using different materials. Other then that the aircraft has had the internals strengthened/reinforced. Apart from that different sensors have been added or removed depending on which airframe.

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## Peaceful Civilian

There is no advantage of 5th generation, 6th or 7th generation fighter........ There is no chance of war, but even if war happens,,, These are just like garbage in nuclear war scenerio...
This is not 1971, 1965 or 1984....


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## illusion8

Peaceful Civilian said:


> There is no advantage of 5th generation, 6th or 7th generation fighter........ There is no chance of war, but even if war happens,,, These are just like garbage in nuclear war scenerio...
> This is not 1971, 1965 or 1984....



But it would be a great platform for the third strike capability to carry nukes..wouldn't it?

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## Peaceful Civilian

illusion8 said:


> But it would be a great platform for the third strike capability to carry nukes..wouldn't it?


So you need 5th,6th gen fighters for nuclear strike... Man, Are you joking? Yar Even ballistic missile is good for this job.
Plus You know,Even 3rd, 4th gen are capable for nuclear strike... They also have 3rd strike capablity........


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## illusion8

Peaceful Civilian said:


> So you need 5th,6th gen fighters for nuclear strike... This is joke man... Even ballastic missile is good for this job.
> Plus You know,Even 3rd, 4th gen are capable for nuclear strike... They also have 3rd srike capablity........



A 5th Gen plane would do a much better job delivering nukes than a 4th Gen - don't you agree?

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## Peaceful Civilian

illusion8 said:


> A 5th Gen plane would do a much better job delivering nukes than a 4th Gen - don't you agree?


These are garbage in nuclear war scenerio.. You are not striking country 10,000 miles away, ....This is just 40 Km away ...


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## illusion8

Peaceful Civilian said:


> These are garbage in nuclear war scenerio.. You are not striking country 10,000 miles away, ....This is just 40 Km away ...



OOOOHHH you have been talking about and India Pakistan scenario eehhh 

But we don't need a 5th Gen fighter for Pakistan to begin with.


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## Peaceful Civilian

illusion8 said:


> OOOOHHH you have been talking about and India Pakistan scenario eehhh
> But we don't need a 5th Gen fighter for Pakistan to begin with.


We will not allow you to create war with any country in the world ..So still they are useless.


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## illusion8

Peaceful Civilian said:


> We will not allow you to create war with any country even 15,000 miles away...So still they are useless.



Who is this "we"? Pakistan?  how are you going to stop it? is it by holding a gun to your own head?


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## Peaceful Civilian

illusion8 said:


> is it by holding a gun to your own head?


Rant and offtopic is sign of losing the argument...


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## illusion8

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Rant and offtopic is sign of losing the argument...



You started it 

What happened ran out of steam? - couldn't figure out how you will stop India from going to war with anyone else?


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## Peaceful Civilian

illusion8 said:


> You started it
> 
> What happened ran out of steam? - couldn't figure out how you will stop India from going to war with anyone else?


Again you offtopic I am talking about 5th gen fighter... Even future 6th, 7th gen of India... ... I am sticked to the thread from my first post but i know when you have no answer, you will always go offtopic... Mashallah !!


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## illusion8

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Again you offtopic I am talking about 5th gen fighter... Even future 6th, 7th gen of India... ... I am sticked to the thread from my first post but i know when you have no answer you will always go offtopic... Mashallah !!



SO was I, I was just replying to you...No?

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## Peaceful Civilian

illusion8 said:


> SO was I, I was just replying to you...No?


When i say about vegetable, talking about banana Is offtopic...


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## illusion8

Peaceful Civilian said:


> When i say about vegetable, talking about banana Is offtopic...



 OK man I'll let it pass - enjoy your banana's.


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## Peaceful Civilian

illusion8 said:


> OK man I'll let it pass - enjoy your banana's.


Again useless rant and offtopic post..

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## HumanJinn




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## ptldM3

Peaceful Civilian said:


> There is no advantage of 5th generation, 6th or 7th generation fighter........ There is no chance of war, but even if war happens,,, These are just like garbage in nuclear war scenerio...
> This is not 1971, 1965 or 1984....



Stop polluting the thread with off topic crap.

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## sancho

@ptldM3

I'm still checking different pics and sources about the weapon bays, be it wrt to the dept, or the length (if it would have any advantages to have a single weapon bay or not). I still think that the front bay is deeper and would actually offer more space for weapons than currently speculated, but unlike my earlier comparisons to the YF23, I realised that the air intakes will be a limiting factor:







The bay doors simply can't be opened that much, as it is the case for the YF23, or F35, that means you the missiles at the doors would block any load that is attached above. In A2A that still might make sense with 5 x R77 for example.


Another point that caught my interest is are the external so called SR missile bays. If they really are meant for RVV-MDs, why would the Sukhoi designers limit the fighter only to 2 missiles, if there is more than enough space left behind the bays for more?













For AAMs the huge size of the T50 offer a lot of options and it will be interesting to see, how the final layout might be.

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## longlong

when will pak-fa open its weapon bay? T-50-6?

The later debuted J-20 opened up all its bays already....cannot wait to see pakfa's.


In common sense, sukhoi should have some difficulties about the bay.


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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> New paint job, supposedly dark bottom and light top. Sukhoi is keeping the tradition of god awful, appallingly gross and plainly retarded paint schemes.
> 
> let's see, they have the smurf green, the top black bottom smurf, multiple blues, gloss black (stupid), and the funky hipster pak-fa with two tone grey and a big white blob in the middle.
> 
> Whoever comes up with these paint combos should be arrested.



Here it is:






Ugly, but as I expected with the darker color on the top.



longlong said:


> when will pak-fa open its weapon bay? T-50-6?
> 
> The later debuted J-20 opened up all its bays already....cannot wait to see pakfa's.
> 
> 
> In common sense, sukhoi should have some difficulties about the bay.



Sure, or that they (unlike Chinese manufacturers) have different fighter types to test techs of Pak fa. Weapon bays are under testing for years on the Su 47 for example, radar and engines will be tested simultaneously on Su 35s as well. The T50s on the other hand show a clear learning / testing curve, T51 was and is mainly for aerodynamical tests, later prototypes had added optical sensors, then came radar tests...while the last one had aerodynamical changes based on the lessons learned so far, added DRICM sensors for tests and we now heared that there will be 2 T55s and that one will make first RCS tests. So all in all, the testing seems to go quiet well. Btw, there were no surprises at the J20 weapon bays, while we still can only speculate on the capacity, let alone the numbers of weapon bays for the T50, it simply leaves so many options.

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## sancho

More pics:
















Source:

КнААЗВ - Галерея - Самолеты - Боевые - Т-50 - T-50-5


http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/gallery/events/combat/t-50/t-50-5.wbp

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## vostok



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## Gessler

Russian painters think up about the most bizarre schemes.


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## sancho

And some more:

















Source:

Гравилётчик Обыкновенный - Пятое поколение, борт номер пять

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## satishkumarcsc

I kinda like the new scheme compared to the older one.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Ewwww .... Looks Weird.
They should have paint it Su-35 style, complete dark gray top with light sky blue bottom and light gray nose. This scheme looks aweful.


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## longlong

sancho said:


> Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ugly, but as I expected with the darker color on the top.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, or that they (unlike Chinese manufacturers) have different fighter types to test techs of Pak fa. Weapon bays are under testing for years on the Su 47 for example, radar and engines will be tested simultaneously on Su 35s as well. The T50s on the other hand show a clear learning / testing curve, T51 was and is mainly for aerodynamical tests, later prototypes had added optical sensors, then came radar tests...while the last one had aerodynamical changes based on the lessons learned so far, added DRICM sensors for tests and we now heared that there will be 2 T55s and that one will make first RCS tests. So all in all, the testing seems to go quiet well. Btw, there were no surprises at the J20 weapon bays, while we still can only speculate on the capacity, let alone the numbers of weapon bays for the T50, it simply leaves so many options.



J-10 was modified as test bed for J-20 in the very begining......And later they got J-10B, shared features from/for/with J-20.

J-20 will have less prototype compared with T-50, many things had been done on super computer.

Anyway, Sukhoi did a good job, impressively fast.


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## sancho

longlong said:


> J-10 was modified as test bed for J-20 in the very begining......And later they got J-10B, shared features from/for/with J-20...
> 
> ...Anyway, Sukhoi did a good job, impressively fast.



For some radar or avionics maybe, but not for weapon bays, air intakes, NG engine developments, that's all where J20 has to do the testing alone, while Sukhoi can spread testing to various tech demo aircrafts they have, apart from several flying and ground based T50 prototypes. Indeed, they are showing the world how capable they are.

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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> For some radar or avionics maybe, but not for weapon bays, air intakes, NG engine developments, that's all where J20 has to do the testing alone, while Sukhoi can spread testing to various tech demo aircrafts they have, apart from several flying and ground based T50 prototypes. Indeed, they are showing the world how capable they are.



Not to mention that even engine development can occur on existing Flanker platforms, early risk amortization used to be a Soviet hallmark and the Russians have gone back to it luckily...

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## sancho

Radiation signs that we have seen before at the tailsting or the nose, seems like the L-Band radars are installed too.

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## Gessler

sancho said:


> Radiation signs that we have seen before at the tailsting or the nose, seems like the L-Band radars are installed too.



For the first time radiation markings are seen in all the areas where radars were
expected to be. The markings on the nose and tails ting are also still there if you
look at above pics.


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## [Bregs]

Nice sleek looks


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Radiation signs that we have seen before at the tailsting or the nose, seems like the L-Band radars are installed too.


THANK GOD the IAF will go for their standard grey finish on their FGFAs- I am NOT a fan of all these silly paint jobs.


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## longlong

sancho said:


> Radiation signs that we have seen before at the tailsting or the nose, seems like the L-Band radars are installed too.



Can pilot see those signs from canopy?


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## rockstarIN

longlong said:


> Can pilot see those signs from canopy?


For what? .........


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## longlong

rockstarIN said:


> For what? .........


Safety.


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## rockstarIN

longlong said:


> Safety.


What you mean. They will surely get the output at their cockpit from those radars


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## longlong

rockstarIN said:


> What you mean. They will surely get the output at their cockpit from those radars


I will not worry the radiation emitted by the pilot if it is safe.
Sure it is concerned.


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## Gessler

longlong said:


> I will not worry the radiation emitted by the pilot if it is safe.
> Sure it is concerned.



The pilot sits inside his canopy and is protected from outside radiation. Plus
pilots wear protective clothing.

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## longlong

Thanks.

With L radar, T-50 is ahead of all................


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## Sri

The current paint job is with the nano paint ( Radar absorbing paint) which was developed for T-50? In fact there was some video on robotic arm for painting purpose ( to get even layer I believe).


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## kaykay

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Again you offtopic I am talking about 5th gen fighter... Even future 6th, 7th gen of India... ... I am sticked to the thread from my first post but i know when you have no answer, you will always go offtopic... Mashallah !!


Well Our 5th gen aircrafts will not be for Pakistan. 100 Mkis+100 Mig-29/Mirage2k5 and other third gen aircrafts can deter any threat from Pakistan.
PS: sir by your logic even JF-17s are usless and you shouldn't buy as there'll be no war or only nuclear ones. Right??

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## GURU DUTT

kaykay said:


> Well Our 5th gen aircrafts will not be for Pakistan. 100 Mkis+100 Mig-29/Mirage2k5 and other third gen aircrafts can deter any threat from Pakistan.
> *PS: sir by your logic even JF-17s are usless and you shouldn't buy as there'll be no war or only nuclear ones. Right?*?


bhai ji inkee choro wo sunna hai na "bandar ko milli haldi ki gaanth pansari ban baitha" rest ....aap khud samjhdar ho


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> For the first time radiation markings are seen in all the areas where radars were
> expected to be. The markings on the nose and tails ting are also still there if you
> look at above pics.



Of course, they were integrated at earlier prototypes and now the system seems to be completed, which is another step in the testing stage.


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## sancho

> *Serial deliveries of fighter T-50 Russian Air Force will begin in 2016*
> 
> United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) plans in 2016. start serial deliveries promising aviation complex of the fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA), said the KLA. According to the director, principal designer of the program to develop the T-50 Alexander Davydenko, in I quarter of 2014. plane will be ready for the state tests...



Google Translate


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## sancho

@ptldM3 and @vostok 

Can one of you please translate the parts marked in green?:

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## vostok

Starting from the top, counterclockwise. Some abbreviations I can not translate because I do not know what they mean.
Antennas of identification, guidance and МЛС.
Antenna radio, РСБН and recognition.
Antenna of navigation, identification and МЛС.
VHF Antenna, satellite radio and microwaves radio.
Antenna of identification, navigation and landing.

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## sancho

vostok said:


> Starting from the top, counterclockwise. Some abbreviations I can not translate because I do not know what they mean.
> *Antennas of identification, guidance and МЛС.
> Antenna radio, РСБН and recognition.*
> Antenna of navigation, identification and МЛС.
> VHF Antenna, satellite radio and microwaves radio.
> Antenna of identification, navigation and landing.



Excellent thanks! So that confirms IFF and nav antennas, was also able to find the radio antennas around the nose of the T50-2 as well (any idea about their purpose?). Still trying to figure out, where the other antennas might be placed.

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## 1000VA



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## he-man

the omly problem is the engine............it is very prominent


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## satishkumarcsc

he-man said:


> the omly problem is the engine............it is very prominent



Will wait for the Item 30C engine before I comment. This engine was never meant to be for the PAK-FA since the start. The AL 41 technology is there and they are trying to mate it with the recent advancements in engine technology.


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## he-man

i know that
point is it will not change the engine ducts and with thrust vectoring nozzles size won't change much if at all
so we can only hope against hope


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## Gessler

he-man said:


> i know that
> point is it will not change the engine ducts and with thrust vectoring nozzles size won't change much if at all
> so we can only hope against hope



Have you seen F-22's thrust-vectored nozzles?


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## victor07

sancho said:


> Excellent thanks! So that confirms IFF and nav antennas, was also able to find the radio antennas around the nose of the T50-2 as well (any idea about their purpose?). Still trying to figure out, where the other antennas might be placed.


¨МЛС¨ means simply MLS: Microwave Landing System
Microwave landing system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
РСБН stands for радиотехническая система ближней навигации, Russian radionavigation system similar to VOR/DME.

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## Parul

@sancho translation of this pic is also available on Page 80.

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## sancho

Flamingo said:


> @sancho translation of this pic is also available on Page 80.



Saw that too, but wanted to know about those antennas specfically.

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## he-man

Gessler said:


> Have you seen F-22's thrust-vectored nozzles?




as a matter of fact i have

but that tech is totally diff mate.............

why does pakfa's engine protrude so much??


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## Gessler

he-man said:


> as a matter of fact i have
> 
> but that tech is totally diff mate.............
> 
> why does pakfa's engine protrude so much??



Do you mean protruding horizontally?

That is a result of compressor diameter. Type-30 engine has smaller dimensions,
so the protrusion will automatically go down after the new engine is in place.


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## he-man

no one knows the diameter of type 30 engine

only thing known is that it has 5 blade compressor instead of 9 blade as in al-31 family

if something about diameter is known pls tell us


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## DrSomnath999

*Sukhoi fighters will remain the backbone of the Russian Air Force*







Russian jet maker Sukhoi continues the development of the T-50 fifth-generation fighter for the national air force under the PAK FA program. The fifth prototype of this aircraft made its hour-long maiden flight at Komsomolsk-on-Amur on October 28.

The manufacturer is not explaining how the T-50-5 differs from the previous prototypes, nor does it disclose what kind of tests the airframe is intended for. After the factory trials, T-50-5 will join the other four prototypes, which are currently being test-flown at Zhukovsky outside Moscow. Two more airframes are involved in the ground test: one of them is used as a ground rig, the other one is undergoing static tests.

The T-50 is intended to replace 4th generation Sukhoi Su-27/30 aircraft in the Russian Air Force. It will also serve as the baseline for the Russo-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, being developed jointly by Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The first T-50 prototype flew in January 2010; the flight test program started in April same year. The T-50-3 prototype, equipped with an AESA radar, joined the trials in 2012, the same year as tests began on the fighter’s in-flight refueling capability. According to Sukhoi, in the three years of testing the T-50 prototypes completed more than 450 flights in total. 

*The T-50 prototypes involved in the flight tests are currently powered by a pair of Item 117 engines, which represent a radical upgrade of the NPO Saturn AL-31F design. Russia’s United Engine Corporation is looking to complete the development of a production engine for the Sukhoi T-50 fighters by late 2015. This is when the engineering design phase is expected to be finished and blueprints issued for the manufacture of the gas generator and engine demonstrators. Engine prototypes should be built and enter into testing in 2016.*

Earlier, Russian Air Force Com**mander-in-Chief Lt-Gen Viktor Bon**darev said that the flying phase of the joint evaluation trials should begin in 2013. Series production of the new fighter is expected to be launched in 2016. According to Mikhail Pogosyan, head of Sukhoi’s parent company United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), 25 billion rubles (about $780 million) will be invested in setting up a T-50 assembly line at Sukhoi’s Komsomolsk-on-Amur facility, which already houses the assembly line for Russian Air Force Su-35S multirole fighters.

The Su-35S generation 4++ multirole combat aircraft is expected to be operated by the Russian Air Force alongside the T-50. The Russian military placed an order for 48 of the type in 2009. The first two airframes were delivered in 2011, another eight followed last year. The type is now undergoing join evaluation trials. Sukhoi reported earlier that the results of the flight testing program had corroborated the design performance parameters for the airframe, powerplants, navigation system, and other equipment. The aircraft demonstrated a maximum near ground airspeed of 1,400 km/h and 2,400 km/h at altitude, and its maximum demonstrated altitude is 18,000 m.

The Russian Air Force has also ordered two more warplane types from Sukhoi: the Su-30M2 twin-seat fighter and the Su-34 bomber. The latter are being assembled at another Sukhoi facility, in Novosibirsk. The military has inked two contracts with Sukhoi for a combined 124 of the type. Deliveries started in 2010. 

The Russian Defense Ministry expects Sukhoi to deliver 14 more Su-34 this year. The first bomber was delivered in May, two more batches followed in July and October. The 2014 production plan for the Novosibirsk facility stands at 16 aircraft, the military reports.

According to Pogosyan, the Komso**molsk-on-Amur facility is planning to deliver 27 fighters to the Russian Air Force this year, and 19 more fighters in 2014. Joint deliveries by the two Sukhoi facilities are expected to reach 51 fighters in 2015. Pogosyan says this is more than one half of all the aircraft the Defense Ministry has ordered from UAC. 

Sukhoi fighters will remain the backbone of the Russian Air Force | ???????????????? ?????????

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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> *Sukhoi fighters will remain the backbone of the Russian Air Force*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian jet maker Sukhoi continues the development of the T-50 fifth-generation fighter for the national air force under the PAK FA program. The fifth prototype of this aircraft made its hour-long maiden flight at Komsomolsk-on-Amur on October 28.
> 
> The manufacturer is not explaining how the T-50-5 differs from the previous prototypes, nor does it disclose what kind of tests the airframe is intended for. After the factory trials, T-50-5 will join the other four prototypes, which are currently being test-flown at Zhukovsky outside Moscow. Two more airframes are involved in the ground test: one of them is used as a ground rig, the other one is undergoing static tests.
> 
> The T-50 is intended to replace 4th generation Sukhoi Su-27/30 aircraft in the Russian Air Force. It will also serve as the baseline for the Russo-Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, being developed jointly by Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> 
> The first T-50 prototype flew in January 2010; the flight test program started in April same year. The T-50-3 prototype, equipped with an AESA radar, joined the trials in 2012, the same year as tests began on the fighter’s in-flight refueling capability. According to Sukhoi, in the three years of testing the T-50 prototypes completed more than 450 flights in total.
> 
> *The T-50 prototypes involved in the flight tests are currently powered by a pair of Item 117 engines, which represent a radical upgrade of the NPO Saturn AL-31F design. Russia’s United Engine Corporation is looking to complete the development of a production engine for the Sukhoi T-50 fighters by late 2015. This is when the engineering design phase is expected to be finished and blueprints issued for the manufacture of the gas generator and engine demonstrators. Engine prototypes should be built and enter into testing in 2016.*
> 
> Earlier, Russian Air Force Com**mander-in-Chief Lt-Gen Viktor Bon**darev said that the flying phase of the joint evaluation trials should begin in 2013. Series production of the new fighter is expected to be launched in 2016. According to Mikhail Pogosyan, head of Sukhoi’s parent company United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), 25 billion rubles (about $780 million) will be invested in setting up a T-50 assembly line at Sukhoi’s Komsomolsk-on-Amur facility, which already houses the assembly line for Russian Air Force Su-35S multirole fighters.
> 
> The Su-35S generation 4++ multirole combat aircraft is expected to be operated by the Russian Air Force alongside the T-50. The Russian military placed an order for 48 of the type in 2009. The first two airframes were delivered in 2011, another eight followed last year. The type is now undergoing join evaluation trials. Sukhoi reported earlier that the results of the flight testing program had corroborated the design performance parameters for the airframe, powerplants, navigation system, and other equipment. The aircraft demonstrated a maximum near ground airspeed of 1,400 km/h and 2,400 km/h at altitude, and its maximum demonstrated altitude is 18,000 m.
> 
> The Russian Air Force has also ordered two more warplane types from Sukhoi: the Su-30M2 twin-seat fighter and the Su-34 bomber. The latter are being assembled at another Sukhoi facility, in Novosibirsk. The military has inked two contracts with Sukhoi for a combined 124 of the type. Deliveries started in 2010.
> 
> The Russian Defense Ministry expects Sukhoi to deliver 14 more Su-34 this year. The first bomber was delivered in May, two more batches followed in July and October. The 2014 production plan for the Novosibirsk facility stands at 16 aircraft, the military reports.
> 
> According to Pogosyan, the Komso**molsk-on-Amur facility is planning to deliver 27 fighters to the Russian Air Force this year, and 19 more fighters in 2014. Joint deliveries by the two Sukhoi facilities are expected to reach 51 fighters in 2015. Pogosyan says this is more than one half of all the aircraft the Defense Ministry has ordered from UAC.
> 
> Sukhoi fighters will remain the backbone of the Russian Air Force | ???????????????? ?????????


already running as alternative thread


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## sancho

he-man said:


> already running as alternative thread



But should have posted here, since we have a sticky thread for these kind of news.


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## he-man

i know but ppl don't come here very often for discussion


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> But should have posted here, since we have a sticky thread for these kind of news.


on top of it he has changed the title of that thread to what suits his mind's fantasy
how the hell would someone know it is already posted
pakfa update..........regarding engine and production



*CHEERS*


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## trident2010

Now the T-50 started to look refined. However, I do not think it will match the F-22 in terms of stealth characteristics. From India's power projection goals, it will be more than sufficient though.


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## Dash

trident2010 said:


> Now the T-50 started to look refined. However, I do not think it will match the F-22 in terms of stealth characteristics. From India's power projection goals, it will be more than sufficient though.



Actually it doesnt need to match F-22 in matters of stealth since Raptor is a very expensive fighter. It may not be difficult for Russians to match F-22 but for them it wasnt logical.

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## sancho

he-man said:


> i know but ppl don't come here very often for discussion



That's why we have to focus on getting the discussions back to the sticky threads, that goes on for a long time, instead of starting numerous single threads with the same topic, but discussions only going on for a few days.

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## proka89

*India Pushes Russia For Bigger Slice Of Fighter Program*



> India is expressing displeasure with Russia over New Delhi’s low level of participation in the joint development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), despite being an equal financial partner in the project and placing an order of more than US $30 billion for the new planes.
> Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony told his counterpart in Moscow during a visit this month that India’s share of the work should be 50 percent in development and production of the FGFA, which is still in the prototype stage, MoD sources said.
> 
> The MoD’s official news release referred to India’s wish for active involvement in FGFA. “Referring to FGFA and Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA) program, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said the two projects are significant because they symbolize going past the relationship of buyer-seller, and both sides must give their best at all phases of the execution of these two projects: design, development and production.”
> 
> India’s share of the FGFA development is only 15 percent. A diplomat from the Russian Embassy here said India’s share is limited by India’s capabilities in military aircraft research and industrial infrastructure. This level of participation will increase as the FGFA develops, the diplomat said.
> 
> India and Russia agreed in 2007 to jointly develop the FGFA for use by both air forces. In December 2010, Rosoboronexport, India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics and Russian aircraft-maker Sukhoi signed a preliminary design development contract worth $295 million. The final design, research and joint development contract, estimated to be more than $10 billion, has yet to be signed.
> 
> The delay in signing the final research-and-development contract is unlikely to slow down the program, which has four prototypes flying, the Russian diplomat said.
> 
> The Indian MoD source, however, said the delay in signing the contract has pushed the project into the next administration after the country’s general elections in early 2014. The source said a new government would honor all international commitments, but much would depend on India’s share of the work.
> 
> The Indian Air Force expects to order more than 200 of the twin-engine aircraft, which is based on Sukhoi’s T-50 PAK FA and will incorporate Indian Air Force specifications.
> 
> An Air Force official said the FGFA prototype has flown in Siberia this year, but there is very little involvement by the Indian Air Force in design and development. The 30-ton stealthy FGFA would be a swing-role fighter jet with advanced avionics, smart weapons and high-end mission computers.
> 
> The Air Force official said the date of entrance of the final version of FGFA has been postponed from 2020 to beyond 2022. The Indians were supposed to receive three variants of the aircraft in 2014, 2017 and 2019, with the final version entering service in 2020.
> 
> “India should not miss the opportunity of getting involved in a high-technology project like the FGFA,” said Nitin Mehta, an analyst based here.


http://www.defensenews.com/article/...ia-Pushes-Russia-Bigger-Slice-Fighter-Program

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## Dash

proka89 said:


> India’s share of the FGFA development is only 15 percent. A diplomat from the Russian Embassy here said India’s share is limited by India’s capabilities in military aircraft research and industrial infrastructure. This level of participation will increase as the FGFA develops, the diplomat said.



This is the most important point for us if we want to become an aviation giant...Lets see.

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## he-man

Dash said:


> This is the most important point for us if we want to become an aviation giant...Lets see.


this is wishful thinking

what will india contribute in pakfa??
do we really believe we make even better composites than russia??
i for one don't


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## Dash

he-man said:


> this is wishful thinking
> 
> what will india contribute in pakfa??
> do we really believe we make even better composites than russia??
> i for one don't



Composites?, I dont know if we are better but we are at par with anybody in composites. apart from fighters we have integrated composites to even missiles and rockets.
But I wasnt pointing at what you have highlighted, my suggestion was to improve our industrial infrastrcture so that we can get more work share.


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## he-man

Dash said:


> Composites?, I dont know if we are better but we are at par with anybody in composites. apart from fighters we have integrated composites to even missiles and rockets.
> But I wasnt pointing at what you have highlighted, my suggestion was to improve our industrial infrastrcture so that we can get more work share.


yes on that level i am totally with u
even if their composites are a tad better,we must opt for our own as they are good enough themselves.
as far as avionics go they will be made by rostec corporation subsidary uomz.so we will have no say in that.
we cannot compete in the mission computers too as we cannot manufacture mdpu on our own(i think that)
but we should!!
then come tires,iff systems,engine starters,obogs,parachute..........................we must at least make these things


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## Dash

he-man said:


> yes on that level i am totally with u
> even if their composites are a tad better,we must opt for our own as they are good enough themselves.
> as far as avionics go they will be made by rostec corporation subsidary uomz.so we will have no say in that.
> we cannot compete in the mission computers too as we cannot manufacture mdpu on our own(i think that)
> but we should!!
> then come tires,iff systems,engine starters,obogs,parachute..........................we must at least make these things



the LCA mission computer is foreign?


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## he-man

Dash said:


> the LCA mission computer is foreign?


no no
even su-30 mki one is indian but they are multiple units and thus lack sensor fusion but the ones on 5 th gen will use customised chips with single powerful unit for sensor fusion.
i don't think we have that capability yet as we cannot use intel or amd chips as the plane is russian!!
so they are gonna use the elbrus processors manufactured under contract in taiwan(thats the rumour)

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## he-man

mfd for russian pakfa and su-35
needless to say,look pretty disappointing,we must get our own ones
http://forum.keypublishing.com/atta...ad26bf2d73e2&attachmentid=223241&d=1385487511


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Composites?, I dont know if we are better but we are at par with anybody in composites. apart from fighters we have integrated composites to even missiles and rockets.
> But I wasnt pointing at what you have highlighted, my suggestion was to improve our industrial infrastrcture so that we can get more work share.



The workshare can only increase with time, since we have to get the basic capabilties on our own first as you correctly pointed out, but have to learn about such NG aerodynamics, design, let alone about the techs and capabilities first. That can only be done by getting LCA done on the one side and getting co-developments or NG techs on the other side.

Simple example are the MFDs, we already have indigenous MFDs in MKIs, are developing once that are equal to Su35 and current T50 MFDs, but also can get the NG touchscreen display via the HALBIT JV. Similarly, the MAWS, RWR, jammers... should be either developed indigenously, where we already have a good development base, or jointly developed to get even better techs. Another important point will be IRST, or other passiv detection and targeting systems, where the Russians can't offer similar advanced techs, that we can get through our access to foreign techs. Again chances for joint developments and increase the non Russian part of the FGFA. 
However, it was clear from the start that in design, radar or engine developments, there won't be any important contribution from our side and that's exactly why we needed such a co-development.


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## Sri

The 5th Generation Is Cursed
Not sure if already posted. Interesting as it shows what Russia is offering and what india is looking for.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> The workshare can only increase with time, since we have to get the basic capabilties on our own first as you correctly pointed out, but have to learn about such NG aerodynamics, design, let alone about the techs and capabilities first. That can only be done by getting LCA done on the one side and getting co-developments or NG techs on the other side.
> 
> Simple example are the MFDs, we already have indigenous MFDs in MKIs, are developing once that are equal to Su35 and current T50 MFDs, but also can get the NG touchscreen display via the HALBIT JV. Similarly, the MAWS, RWR, jammers... should be either developed indigenously, where we already have a good development base, or jointly developed to get even better techs. Another important point will be IRST, or other passiv detection and targeting systems, where the Russians can't offer similar advanced techs, that we can get through our access to foreign techs. Again chances for joint developments and increase the non Russian part of the FGFA.
> However, it was clear from the start that in design, radar or engine developments, there won't be any important contribution from our side and that's exactly why we needed such a co-development.



You know the first thing that came to my mind after reading your post is, what if Russians are not interested in allowing foreign techs on their plane. What if they just played the card for money. Eventually Indians will replace the Russian avionics with some of our own. But just think about it for a sec and might be the reason for delay!


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## anjaneyashruti

Dash said:


> You know the first thing that came to my mind after reading your post is, what if Russians are not interested in allowing foreign techs on their plane. What if they just played the card for money. Eventually Indians will replace the Russian avionics with some of our own. But just think about it for a sec and might be the reason for delay!



Nobody in the world thinks Russians invited Indians into the program for our Tech. LOL. 

It was obviously for our money. Once they receive our money in exchange for some worthless promise it will be Vikramaditya all over again  

Is there anyone here who things otherwise ?  

Only the MoD is back to square one, playing dumb charades all over again.


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## Dash

anjaneyashruti said:


> Nobody in the world thinks Russians invited Indians into the program for our Tech. LOL.
> 
> It was obviously for our money. Once they receive our money in exchange for some worthless promise it will be Vikramaditya all over again
> 
> Is there anyone here who things otherwise ?
> 
> Only the MoD is back to square one, playing dumb charades all over again.



Dont jump into anything right now.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> The workshare can only increase with time, since we have to get the basic capabilties on our own first as you correctly pointed out, but have to learn about such NG aerodynamics, design, let alone about the techs and capabilities first. That can only be done by getting LCA done on the one side and getting co-developments or NG techs on the other side.
> 
> Simple example are the MFDs, we already have indigenous MFDs in MKIs, are developing once that are equal to Su35 and current T50 MFDs, but also can get the NG touchscreen display via the HALBIT JV. Similarly, the MAWS, RWR, jammers... should be either developed indigenously, where we already have a good development base, or jointly developed to get even better techs. Another important point will be IRST, or other passiv detection and targeting systems, where the Russians can't offer similar advanced techs, that we can get through our access to foreign techs. Again chances for joint developments and increase the non Russian part of the FGFA.
> However, it was clear from the start that in design, radar or engine developments, there won't be any important contribution from our side and that's exactly why we needed such a co-development.




all the tech u posted here will be 100% russian like irst,maws,rwr's etc

we cannot source such advanced tech from anywhere else as none except northrop grumann,bae systems and thales like companies have them

no one will give that to us,forget it.



Dash said:


> Dont jump into anything right now.




pls wake up

that guy is 100% right.we have nothing to contribute and as pointed out by me earlier even mission computers won't be indian simply because we haven't even started the process.

russians have developed the avionics of pakfa themselves without us contributing anything even before contract is signed.

just go to drdo site and then go to russian sites like rostec.com and u will find why we cannot contribute


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## he-man

sancho said:


> The workshare can only increase with time, since we have to get the basic capabilties on our own first as you correctly pointed out, but have to learn about such NG aerodynamics, design, let alone about the techs and capabilities first. That can only be done by getting LCA done on the one side and getting co-developments or NG techs on the other side.
> 
> Simple example are the MFDs, we already have indigenous MFDs in MKIs, are developing once that are equal to Su35 and current T50 MFDs, but also can get the NG touchscreen display via the HALBIT JV. Similarly, the MAWS, RWR, jammers... should be either developed indigenously, where we already have a good development base, or jointly developed to get even better techs. Another important point will be IRST, or other passiv detection and targeting systems, where the Russians can't offer similar advanced techs, that we can get through our access to foreign techs. Again chances for joint developments and increase the non Russian part of the FGFA.
> However, it was clear from the start that in design, radar or engine developments, there won't be any important contribution from our side and that's exactly why we needed such a co-development.




have u seen the heavy duty equipment of pakfa(of course u have)......

they have made 4 aesas already and are undergoing testing
maws(uv) are ready................6 are installed throughout
rwr have been sewn into the body
it has atleast 2 dircm's
3 frontal aesas and a rear one with 2 on lerx(l band)

and tell me where was india in all this??



another point is all these things will be better than any other 4.5 jet out there whether rafale or anything.

on the question of composites and ram do u really believe in the bullshit that we are better than them??comeon

yes we can contribute heavily in mfd's and cockpit layout and even composites but thats pretty much all we can do



Sri said:


> The 5th Generation Is Cursed
> Not sure if already posted. Interesting as it shows what Russia is offering and what india is looking for.




don't believe these bullshit articles

first its assuming it to be rival with f-22??!!

now i don't care what anyone on this forum says but
1)f-22 is 10-12 years old
2)apg-77 however advanced it was 12 years ago simply cannot match performance of 
newer stuff like apg-81
3)no irst
4)sensor fusion way less compared to f-35 and even pakfa will easily surpass it due to 
chips being available
5)on 180 odd are available



moral----------focus on f-35 as the main rival and not f-22


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## trident2010

Until the agreement is signed between India and Russia nothing will be clear. Also, as with other JVs with Russia what is happening behind the scene, no one will know.


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## DrSomnath999

*General designer "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin "engine of the second stage of the fifth-generation aircraft will bring a new life" *






One of the major challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine building is the development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn." 

*About that, at what stage is the process of creating this engine, which features a new plane will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN," Chief Designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN. *

- Yuri, tell me what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features? 

- Fifth generation fighter aircraft T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which will make it highly maneuverable, fast, economical and able to withstand competitors such as American F-22 and F-35. 

The engine for the fifth generation aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased engine specific impulse, lower weight, lower specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. Thus it should be relatively inexpensive to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is now working on this engine. 

*- How components and units of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the biggest challenge for engineers? *

- In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. It was given to make the turbine is operated at a temperature level at which the metallic nickel alloys simply melted. This work was completed successfully. 

Aircraft engine is the heart of the high pressure compressor. Its level of perfection directly depend all the main characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we were able to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage compressor, with a significant increase in performance provided by one stage. The cost of manufacturing such a compressor will not exceed the cost of manufacturing the engine HPC fourth generation. And it is subject to the application of new materials and technologies. 

Deciding to these and other challenges, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance that will be the basis for a new engine family. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of creating an engine with an enormous reserve of development for traction. 

*- What structural materials preferred for a new engine? *

- Without fundamentally impossible to provide new materials are the characteristics that we make to the new generation of GTE. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM). 

In the first place, it certainly blade high-temperature nickel alloys. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It represents the complex spatial structure which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K. 

There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures. 

*Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA applied composites that are built not only on the polymer matrix of the cold, as well as items created by high compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough. *

*- Do not forget that everything is new and modern with time obsolete. Is there a possibility of it generated by the engine of modernization? *

- Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will help develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe even 50 years ahead. 

Today in "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine using the technology, which is called "variable cycle engine." The studies that say that at a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight regimes. One of these transformations can be a third application of the circuit. All this is provided. 

*- How will affect the installation of new engines on the flight characteristics of the fifth generation fighter? Feel the difference whether the pilot, the plane peresevshy with the engine of the first stage of a plane with the engine of the second stage? *

- The new engine is fundamentally different from previous products of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. Plane with the new engine will become more docile and can quickly react to the actions of the pilot. In fact, the engine of the second stage is to give the T-50 aircraft to a new life. 

*- Yuri, it is known that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes? *

Now prototypes completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In fact, it is the result of deep development engine family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today Su-27 family. 

Of course, it's a great engine, which is a bestseller and is built on the basic principles and ideas of the design bureau Arkhip Cradles. But it's still a step motor 4 +.

Google Translate

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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> *General designer "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin "engine of the second stage of the fifth-generation aircraft will bring a new life" *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the major challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine building is the development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn."
> 
> *About that, at what stage is the process of creating this engine, which features a new plane will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN," Chief Designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN. *
> 
> - Yuri, tell me what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features?
> 
> - Fifth generation fighter aircraft T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which will make it highly maneuverable, fast, economical and able to withstand competitors such as American F-22 and F-35.
> 
> The engine for the fifth generation aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased engine specific impulse, lower weight, lower specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. Thus it should be relatively inexpensive to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is now working on this engine.
> 
> *- How components and units of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the biggest challenge for engineers? *
> 
> - In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. It was given to make the turbine is operated at a temperature level at which the metallic nickel alloys simply melted. This work was completed successfully.
> 
> Aircraft engine is the heart of the high pressure compressor. Its level of perfection directly depend all the main characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we were able to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage compressor, with a significant increase in performance provided by one stage. The cost of manufacturing such a compressor will not exceed the cost of manufacturing the engine HPC fourth generation. And it is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.
> 
> Deciding to these and other challenges, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance that will be the basis for a new engine family. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of creating an engine with an enormous reserve of development for traction.
> 
> *- What structural materials preferred for a new engine? *
> 
> - Without fundamentally impossible to provide new materials are the characteristics that we make to the new generation of GTE. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM).
> 
> In the first place, it certainly blade high-temperature nickel alloys. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It represents the complex spatial structure which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.
> 
> There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures.
> 
> *Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA applied composites that are built not only on the polymer matrix of the cold, as well as items created by high compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough. *
> 
> *- Do not forget that everything is new and modern with time obsolete. Is there a possibility of it generated by the engine of modernization? *
> 
> - Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will help develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe even 50 years ahead.
> 
> Today in "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine using the technology, which is called "variable cycle engine." The studies that say that at a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight regimes. One of these transformations can be a third application of the circuit. All this is provided.
> 
> *- How will affect the installation of new engines on the flight characteristics of the fifth generation fighter? Feel the difference whether the pilot, the plane peresevshy with the engine of the first stage of a plane with the engine of the second stage? *
> 
> - The new engine is fundamentally different from previous products of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. Plane with the new engine will become more docile and can quickly react to the actions of the pilot. In fact, the engine of the second stage is to give the T-50 aircraft to a new life.
> 
> *- Yuri, it is known that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes? *
> 
> Now prototypes completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In fact, it is the result of deep development engine family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today Su-27 family.
> 
> Of course, it's a great engine, which is a bestseller and is built on the basic principles and ideas of the design bureau Arkhip Cradles. But it's still a step motor 4 +.
> 
> Google Translate





will have 5 stage compressor compared to 9 on al-31
will be 150 kg lighter than product 117
approx 176 kn thrust


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## longlong

Dash said:


> Composites?, I dont know if we are better but we are at par with anybody in composites. apart from fighters we have integrated composites to even missiles and rockets.
> But I wasnt pointing at what you have highlighted, my suggestion was to improve our industrial infrastrcture so that we can get more work share.


Can India really make carbon fibre? Or only mould fiber with imported fiber sheet (or filament)?

*Only US, Japan , China (maybe Russia) can claim they can really make carbon fiber and carbon fiber composite.*


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## Dash

longlong said:


> Can India really make carbon fibre? Or only mould fiber with imported fiber sheet (or filament)?
> 
> *Only US, Japan , China (maybe Russia) can claim they can really make carbon fiber and carbon fiber composite.*



India gets first carbon fibre plant - Indian Express



> under technology transfer from the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research's (CSIR) National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL), *which had developed the ultra-light material for the Light Combat Aircraft.*

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## longlong

Dash said:


> India gets first carbon fibre plant - Indian Express



I do think its a carbon fiber textile plant only ---- the carbon fabric is imported.


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## Dash

longlong said:


> I do think its a carbon fiber textile plant only ---- the carbon fabric is imported.


When it says the fibre was developed in house, why do you think it is imported?


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## anjaneyashruti

longlong said:


> I do think its a carbon fiber textile plant only ---- the carbon fabric is imported.



Can you Read ? 

*Vadodara, Mon May 10 2010*

Former President Dr A P J Abdul Kalam on Sunday inaugurated the country's first * carbon fibre manufacturing facility. *..........Kalpesh Patel, CMD, Kemrock Industries and Exports Limited, said their facility's *400 tonne per annum output* will primarily service the domestic aerospace needs —Indian Space Research Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited...........*Kemrock plans to supply 1,500 tonnes of carbon fibre to the strategic sectors over the next four years.*


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## longlong

anjaneyashruti said:


> Can you Read ?
> 
> *Vadodara, Mon May 10 2010*
> 
> Former President Dr A P J Abdul Kalam on Sunday inaugurated the country's first * carbon fibre manufacturing facility. *..........Kalpesh Patel, CMD, Kemrock Industries and Exports Limited, said their facility's *400 tonne per annum output* will primarily service the domestic aerospace needs —Indian Space Research Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited...........*Kemrock plans to supply 1,500 tonnes of carbon fibre to the strategic sectors over the next four years.*



Most people have no idea what carbon fiber is and what they are made from.

1)Carbon filament (tiny size in grade of μm) -> 2)carbon fabric (yarn) -> 3)carbon sheet (textile) -> 4)carbon product.

India's industries ability should be at stage3 and after. It's not a full chain.

The first 2 stage (especially the 1st) are the core of the full chain and that is controlled by US, Japan, now China started. The imported fiber fabric is low grade up to T1000 only.


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## anjaneyashruti

longlong said:


> Most people have no idea what carbon fiber is and what they are made from.
> 
> 1)Carbon filament (tiny size in grade of μm) -> 2)carbon fabric (yarn) -> 3)carbon sheet (textile) -> 4)carbon product.
> 
> India's industries ability should be at stage3 and after. It's not a full chain.
> 
> The first 2 stage (especially the 1st) are the core of the full chain and that is controlled by US, Japan, now China started. The imported fiber fabric is low grade up to T1000 only.



Clearly you are retarded. When the articles clearly says "Carbon Fiber manufacturing" you insist it is 'carbon textile'  Get over your inferiority complex and stop whining.

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## DrSomnath999

longlong said:


> Can India really make carbon fibre? Or only mould fiber with imported fiber sheet (or filament)?
> 
> *Only US, Japan , China (maybe Russia) can claim they can really make carbon fiber and carbon fiber composite.*


LOLLZ

can china make a single weapon on it's own without copying or reverse engineering??

here is a news that would grow hair in your chest

*Chinese Smuggler Tried to Sneak Carbon Fiber for Fighter Jets, Feds Claim*



> The U.S. has busted up a plot to smuggle tons of carbon fiber to China, where the material would ostensibly be used in the construction of new fighter planes. That might seem worrying, but if the allegations are true, it’s probably a comforting sign. That’s because if Beijing needs to illegally import the ultra-tough polymers from America, that means we don’t have to worry too much about China’s upgraded air force.
> Chinese Smuggler Tried to Sneak Carbon Fiber for Fighter Jets, Feds Claim | Danger Room | Wired.com

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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> LOLLZ
> 
> can china make a single weapon on it's own without copying or reverse engineering??
> 
> here is a news that would grow hair in your chest
> 
> *Chinese Smuggler Tried to Sneak Carbon Fiber for Fighter Jets, Feds Claim*



damnnnnnnnnnnnn

KEH KE LE LI

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## trident2010

"Made in China" LoLzzz


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## victor07

A short popular video describing current technologies of radio absorbent and composite materials for PAK-FA project.

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## victor07

There are some inofficial news about the project from interested internet community in Russia.
1. Talking about recently made T-50-5 it is very different from previous prototypes. It is stated that T-50-5 has installed armament control systems and armament suspension points. Probably it will be used for tests in Russian Air Force.
2. T-50-5 not a pre production prototype. T-50-6 or T-50-7 will be used for static tests again, and they are going to have more differences from previous prototypes than T-50-5 has.
I stress that info is inofficial.
The source is
ПАК ФА Т-50 (часть 4) • Форум "Стелс машины"
and other pages arount it.

Also there are some official news from the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur
Дмитрий Медведев посетил авиационный завод имени Ю.А.Гагарина в Комсомольске-на-Амуре - Новости - Правительство России
It is expected to introduce in 2014 the first workshop for radar absorbing coatings, and in 2015 - the second.

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## trident2010

Can wait to see PAKFA flying in India


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## DrSomnath999

*Development PAK FA program*

Recent months have been marked by significant progress in advancing the program of the Russian fifth generation fighter PAK FA (promising aviation complex tactical aviation). October 27, 2013 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, makes its first flight the fifth flight of the PAK FA prototype - aircraft T-50-5. November 20, this machine came to pass tests at the airfield of "Flight Research Institute named after Gromov" in Zhukovsky near Moscow. In early 2014 assumed the presentation of the PAK FA on State tests, the first phase of which is scheduled for completion in 2015. By the time of the first flight of the T-50-5 were more than 450 flight first four flight prototypes of T-50 - recall that flight tests of the first flight of a prototype T-50-1 was launched January 29, 2010. 

Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant named after Yuri Gagarin (branch of "Company" Sukhoi ") conducted another four production prototypes of the PAK FA - aircraft T-50-6-1, T-50-6-2, T-50 and T-7-50-8, which should be submitted before the end of 2014. 





_Fifth flight prototype fifth-generation fighter PAK FA - aircraft T-50-5 ("board room 055"). Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in November 2013 (c) of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant named after Yuri Gagarin (branch of "Company" Sukhoi ")._ 

Simultaneously moves into the production stage of the creation of major systems for the PAK FA. 

As part of the PAK FA are two promising Turbofan engines for this aircraft, both projects are carried out under the auspices of the created "OPK" Oboronprom "engine-integrated group - OJSC" United Engine Corporation "(APC). Currently, the PAK FA are powered by the first stage ("article 117" AL-41F1) developed by JSC "NPO" Saturn ", production of which is JSC" Ufa Engine Industrial Association "(UMPO). Engine "article 117" to a maximum thrust of 14,500 kg is a further development of the well known family of AL-31F engines with preservation of their "hot side" and using the modified compressor engine AL-41F ("article 20"), previously developed in the framework of another Soviet fighter program fifth generation of MFIs. To date, produced 18 engines of the first stage ("article 117"), four of which are bench trials and 14 - flight tests of objects T-50. At the current stage of development on the basic elements of the engine "article 117" made life 750 hours before overhaul. Being prepared for mass production engine UMPO. 

*For further development of the PAK FA and fully achieve all its desired characteristics, a new engine of the second stage ("article 30") up to a maximum thrust of 16,000 pounds or more, which should be brought to production approximately 2020. Development of the engine of the second stage is carried out in cooperation between the enterprises division "Engines for combat aircraft" JDC, while KB-integrator for the development of the engine is defined branch UMPO - "OKB. A.Lyulka. " In co-operation also involved FSUE "STC Gas Turbine" Salute "(Moscow) and JSC" NPP "Motor" (Ufa). In addition, the work involved and the designers of "NPO" Saturn "(Rybinsk) included in another Division JDC -" Engines for civil aviation. " Head factory production engines of the second stage will UMPO. *

*Work on the engine of the second stage ("article 30") PAK FA include research work to develop a new gas generator comprising a five-stage high pressure compressor, combustor and turbine-stage high and low pressure, as well as research on the development of three-stage low-pressure compressor. *

Until the end of 2013 should be completed engineering design of the engine of the second stage and released documentation for manufacturing and engine core demonstrator. In 2014, production is scheduled to UMPO bench tests and pilot gas generators and engine demonstrator "article 30". 

Radar complex weapons control system W-121 aircraft PAK FA with radar N036 with pyatiantennoy system with active phased array (AESA) was established with the leading role of "Scientific Research Institute of Instrument name Tikhomirov" (NIIP Zhukovsky). The structure consists of five N036 radar AFAR - active phased array X-band N036-01-1, placed in front of the fuselage, two AFAR sidescan N036B and N036B-01, and two AFAR N036L N36L-01 and L-band in socks wing, designed to detect and state identification purposes. Also included in the RLC purpose computer system N036UVS. Flight tests of prototypes RFCs W-121 have been conducted since July 2012 a prototype T-50 and T-3-50-4, and is now the most complete configuration, they will be carried out on the T-50-5. Serial production of RFCs W-121 is adjusted by JSC "Ryazan State Instrument-Making Plant" (GRPZ). 





_Staffing antenna arrangement RFCs W-121 Aircraft PAK FA (c) Peter Butovsky / Air Cosmos_

The greatest progress in the development of W-121 RLC associated with bringing to a state of mass production the main element radar AFAR - transceiver modules.* The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for PPR, is a monolithic integrated circuit type GaN - established at FSUE "Scientific-Industrial Enterprise" Istok "(Fryazino, Moscow region) included in the composition of the holding" Roselektronika. " 
*
Development of modules for microwave radar N036 carried on NPP "Source" since 2003. Based on the power transistors and monolithic integrated circuits interest microwave before acceptance have been developed microwave modules for active phased array of bedinyayuschie in all the two-ne Reda TV antenna, supply chain of chilled water systems and digital governance. 

*Currently, the NPP "Istok" launched Russia's first line for the industrial production of transistors and integrated circuits monolithic microwave. For our country, it was a breakthrough, because four years ago, microwave monolithic integrated circuits produced only single specimens. The launch of this line allowed volume production of microwave sub-modules for radar AFAR. *

Established in Enterprise "Istok" pilot line for assembling, configuring, testing and mass production of microwave sub-modules AFAR has a capacity of 100,000 units per year, provided that the development from 2010 serial production of low-temperature multi-layer ceramic (LTSS). Initial ceramic tape manufactured by this company. Commissioned special area for machining of body parts for microwave AFAR submodules with up to 200 thousand sets of parts per year. 





_Nasal and reactance phased array X-band H 036-01-1 (1522 transceiver modules) radar N036 RFCs W-121 aircraft PAK FA exposure in the MAKS-2009 (c) paralay.iboards.ru_





_Multichannel transceiver modules X-band radar N036 RFCs W-121 aircraft PAK FA exposure in MAKS-2011 (with) paralay.iboards.ru _





_Active phased array L-band N036L radar N036 W RLC-121 for placement in an airplane wing socks PAK FA. Exposure MAKS-2011 (with) paralay.iboards.ru _

Development of guided weapons for the PAK FA performed of "Tactical Missiles Corporation" (Tactical Missiles Corporation). Complexes missile air-to-air are included in the Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC Moscow "State Bureau" Vympel "named after II Toropova." For the PAK FA "Vympel" is developing promising products "air-air" small, medium and long-range internal accommodation and gradual build-up of their combat performance. 

In the area of short-range weapons, work is underway to modernize the family of R-73. The major direction of modernization was the establishment of "product 760" (RVV-MD), the so-called "second stage of modernization." Features rocket backfilled by equipping its combined control system comprising a heat seeker, an inertial system (MIS) and receiver line radio correction. *May be a takeover target after starting on the target designation from the ISU. Transverse dimension of 320 x 320 missiles mm. It can capture the target for the trajectory and when you start to make a U-turn at 160 degrees. *Stated that "article 760" passed state tests and is ready for serial production.

*It also creates a virtually new short-range missiles, short-range air combat and highly maneuverable missile defense, designated K-MD ("article 300"). The missile is equipped with a matrix of thermal GOS possibility of pattern recognition and increased range of capture twice. Engine with dual-mode operation time up to 100 seconds and three-channel gas flow control device. Test launch expected in 2014-2015*.

*In the field of medium-range weapons are the modernization of the R-77. An improved version of the first rocket was "170-1 product." The next stage of modernization was "article 180" (RVV-SD). Lattice handlebars replaced with non-folding flat handlebars. The missile is equipped with a new multi-mode active-passive radar seeker. According to the known data, production of RVV-SD should be initiated in 2013.*
A separate line of development of missiles R-77 family is the creation of a "product-PD 180" extended range, and missiles with index "181C product." In addition, "Vympel" is the creation of a new medium-range missile designs. 

*In the area of long-range weapons for the PAK FA "Vympel" is working on upgrading the R-37. Based on "articles 610m" developed a new "product 810". This rocket is to be placed in the inner compartments of the PAK FA. Tests are scheduled for 2014-2015*. 

As armament air-to-surface on the PAK FA "first steps" to use a number of new weapons enterprises Tactical Missiles Corporation - developed of "SSPE" Region "corrected air bombs KAB-250 caliber 250 kg (presumably has a combined satellite and semi-active laser system guidance), anti-radar missiles Kh-58USHK (developer of "GosMKB" Rainbow "them. Bereznyak AY") and modular guided short-range missiles Kh-38 family (parent company developer of Tactical Missiles Corporation).
Google Translate

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## sancho

Sri said:


> The 5th Generation Is Cursed
> Not sure if already posted. Interesting as it shows what Russia is offering and what india is looking for.



Strategypage article, made by a western author, do you really expect any useful infos here? It is true that India insisted on a newly developed engine, but not because the current engine would not be capable or reliable as claimed (a further developed engine of already existing and proven versions, which already offers SC capabilies ), but we unlike the Russian side didn't wanted compromises and a completely newly developed fighter and new systems. That's why the Russians will go for an early Pak Fa by 2015/16, that is based on the current T50 with the current 117 engines, while the FGFA and the final Pak Fa generation will be further upgraded and based on the Type 30 engine, which will be available for the integration and flight tests only by 2016.

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## sancho

Dash said:


> You know the first thing that came to my mind after reading your post is, what if Russians are not interested in allowing foreign techs on their plane. What if they just played the card for money. Eventually Indians will replace the Russian avionics with some of our own. But just think about it for a sec and might be the reason for delay!



Not going to happen, since they highly benefit from the integration of foreign systems wrt exports and that not only in India, also with the MKM for example. Also, the Russians itself are leaning towards the west currently so much, be it imports of European arms, Israeli drones and drone techs, possible joint developments for IFVs with France, or SSKs with Italy. So that is not an issue, especially for us.




he-man said:


> all the tech u posted here will be 100% russian like irst,maws,rwr's etc
> 
> we cannot source such advanced tech from anywhere else as none except northrop grumann,bae systems and thales like companies have them



Not really, look at MKI, Super 30, Mig 29UPG and Ks, we have replaced the Russian parts with Indian, French and Israeli systems since years and will do it of course in a fighter that we jointly develop and own.



he-man said:


> and tell me where was india in all this??



Nowhere of course, since we are not included in Pak Fa development for once, but also since our R&D capability is nowhere near their capabilities in these fields. So don't expect any changes in radar, engine, or the core design base, while materials, coatings, EW sensors, navigation systems, data links, the cockpit layout and hopefully weapons will differ for a good extend for sure. The point is, we have reached good levels in certain areas which are at least as capable as what the Russian offer, while we can even get far better things by our access to foreign techs and JVs. That's why our Shivalik class Frigats offer not only Indian stuff only, but only jointly developed Brahmos, Russian SR or ASW weapons, Israeli radars and in future hopefully also the jointly developed Barak 8.

The mix of our capabilities and access is what makes our products really capable, not limiting ourself to either Indian, or purley foreign options!


----------



## he-man

this aircraft is gonna kick everyone's arse...........beware enemies


----------



## longlong

DrSomnath999 said:


> LOLLZ
> 
> can china make a single weapon on it's own without copying or reverse engineering??
> 
> here is a news that would grow hair in your chest
> 
> *Chinese Smuggler Tried to Sneak Carbon Fiber for Fighter Jets, Feds Claim*


Ignorant.

LOL

India 100% cannot make their own carbon fiber, each single 0.001mm thread is imported. Your plant is a fool-proof line only, which same thing can be done in a basement workshop by 1 person.

How to Make Carbon Fiber: 6 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow


----------



## he-man

longlong said:


> Ignorant.
> 
> LOL
> 
> India 100% cannot make their own carbon fiber, each single 0.001mm thread is imported. Your plant is a fool-proof line only, which same thing can be done in a basement workshop by 1 person.
> 
> How to Make Carbon Fiber: 6 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow




guess wikihow was banned in china??

so the person smuggling the fibre didn't know how to make it!!!
lol


----------



## longlong

he-man said:


> guess wikihow was banned in china??
> 
> so the person smuggling the fibre didn't know how to make it!!!
> lol



This is how you Indian making the crabon fibre and how advanced India composite material manufacturing tech on next gen fighter.

Spying on advanced material making is normal, Us, Japan, Korea, Russia, all smart nation did it. Don't be surprised, sweet heart.


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## he-man

darling,its carbon fibre not crabon

btw ur avatar is nice.........


----------



## DrSomnath999

*PAK FA will complement digital missiles *






Design Bureau "Detail" Corporation "Tactical Missiles" will develop an advanced system for homing missiles K-77m air-to-air, which is equipped with a promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA).
To do this, the company will take a massive retooling. Create a pilot production plant is going in 2015. About it, "Izvestia" reported chief engineer Mikhail Vershinin.
Despite advances in technology and a steady decline in the cost of production, phased array as an element locator remain expensive, which casts doubt on the expediency of their single-use rockets. Nevertheless, such a missile hit the plane enemy will pay many times and production, and possible damage, the deputy director of the Institute of Military and Political Analysis Alexander Hramchihin.
Obtain an advanced targeting system, missile K-77m air-to-air will keep the target and adjust to its maneuvers.

*Homing missiles will ensure the aircraft or missile hit the enemy with the first run. The new radar will provide instant response to a sudden maneuver missile targets, and increase compatibility with digital systems, fifth generation fighter aircraft. Such an element radar is usually installed on the aircraft, including the T-50, and air defense systems.*

*According to general director of holding "Roselektronika" state corporation "Rosteh" Andrei Zverev, Russia has a chance to become one of the first countries to adopt the new technology necessary to create high-precision missiles.*

*"Digital active phased arrays while promising direction and are not currently commercially available, either in Russia or abroad. Certainly, accuracy, agility missiles will increase, because the digital array has more speed and less energy compared to analog, - said Andrei Zverev .*

According to the plans UPKB "Detail" to launch production will not begin until February 2015 - this date must be prepared working documents for the implementation of technology.
Google Translate

*REALLY AN AWESOME NEWS*

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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> *PAK FA will complement digital missiles *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Design Bureau "Detail" Corporation "Tactical Missiles" will develop an advanced system for homing missiles K-77m air-to-air, which is equipped with a promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA).
> To do this, the company will take a massive retooling. Create a pilot production plant is going in 2015. About it, "Izvestia" reported chief engineer Mikhail Vershinin.
> Despite advances in technology and a steady decline in the cost of production, phased array as an element locator remain expensive, which casts doubt on the expediency of their single-use rockets. Nevertheless, such a missile hit the plane enemy will pay many times and production, and possible damage, the deputy director of the Institute of Military and Political Analysis Alexander Hramchihin.
> Obtain an advanced targeting system, missile K-77m air-to-air will keep the target and adjust to its maneuvers.
> 
> *Homing missiles will ensure the aircraft or missile hit the enemy with the first run. The new radar will provide instant response to a sudden maneuver missile targets, and increase compatibility with digital systems, fifth generation fighter aircraft. Such an element radar is usually installed on the aircraft, including the T-50, and air defense systems.*
> 
> *According to general director of holding "Roselektronika" state corporation "Rosteh" Andrei Zverev, Russia has a chance to become one of the first countries to adopt the new technology necessary to create high-precision missiles.*
> 
> *"Digital active phased arrays while promising direction and are not currently commercially available, either in Russia or abroad. Certainly, accuracy, agility missiles will increase, because the digital array has more speed and less energy compared to analog, - said Andrei Zverev .*
> 
> According to the plans UPKB "Detail" to launch production will not begin until February 2015 - this date must be prepared working documents for the implementation of technology.
> Google Translate
> 
> *REALLY AN AWESOME NEWS*




looks like russians are damn serious this time
we are lucky to be getting a fine bird in the making


----------



## akand bharat

*Su-PAKFA’s Shark Inspired Paint Job*

http://www.engineering.com/Designer.../6745/Su-PAKFAs-Shark-Inspired-Paint-Job.aspx
Share on emailMore Sharing Services
















Over the years camouflage has taken on some wildly interesting color schemes. However, in the last few days observers near Russia’s Zhukovshy airbase have been treated to a rather stylish aircraft paint job. Inspired by the Red Sea’s White Tip Longimanus Shark, Russia’s fifth generation fighter is sporting a two-tone body that transitions organically from teal to dark black. 

Designed to be the successor to the MiG-29 and Su-27, the $8 billion PAK-FA will be Russia’s first stealth aircraft. Capable of reaching Mach 2+, the aircraft will have service ceiling of 20,000 m (65,000 ft) and carry a vast array of armament ranging from precision guided bombs to supersonic cruise missile like the BrahMos. According to Russian military plans the PAK-FA will have a service life somewhere between 30-35 years beginning in 2016.

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## sancho

Can anybody tell me what was changed here?

After the paint job:






And recent pics:


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## danger007

longlong said:


> I do think its a carbon fiber textile plant only ---- the carbon fabric is imported.



lol... you are silly... why you are acting like ignorant.. when the article saying Carbon fiber... you are talking about fabric... grow up..


----------



## longlong

danger007 said:


> lol... you are silly... why you are acting like ignorant.. when the article saying Carbon fiber... you are talking about fabric... grow up..



Nice reply, applause!
Curry chicken is so good, who cares the egg!


danger007 said:


> lol... you are silly... why you are acting like ignorant.. when the article saying Carbon fiber... you are talking about fabric... grow up..



You don't know what you are talking about. This material is R16, your IC please.


----------



## Dash

sancho said:


> Can anybody tell me what was changed here?
> 
> After the paint job:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And recent pics:


??????? which is?


----------



## Dillinger

@sancho @Abingdonboy Maybe I'm just not up to date but when did the Pak-Fa launch any missiles or execute any live munitions firing? This is why I ask- 






From 1:50 onward in the video.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy Maybe I'm just not up to date but when did the Pak-Fa launch any missiles or execute any live munitions firing? This is why I ask-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1:50 onward in the video.


Bro this looks like some great CGI.


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> Bro this looks like some great CGI.



It ain't CGI. The footage and the perceptible jinking with the camera points towards an actual bona fide test being conducted in the video.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> It ain't CGI. The footage and the perceptible jinking with the camera points towards an actual bona fide test being conducted in the video.


Bro that's deliberate. As I said this is VERY good CGI, those jerks in the camera add the realisitc feel. The CGI action sequences in Ace Combat are very similar to this. 


This is my take on it anyway maybe others can give their take, I could be wrong.


----------



## kurup

Dillinger said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy Maybe I'm just not up to date but when did the Pak-Fa launch any missiles or execute any live munitions firing? This is why I ask-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1:50 onward in the video.



That is a CGI . A very good one at that too .

I have posted this video earlier .... Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 75

AFAIK , the weapon trials of PAK FA has not started yet .

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## trident2010

Good CGI though


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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> Can anybody tell me what was changed here?
> 
> After the paint job:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And recent pics:




Looks a lot like the 101-ksu

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## KAL-EL

Now that's one fine looking jet


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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> Looks a lot like the 101-ksu



That was my first thought as well, but wasn't sure about if that are sensors or just some markings. If that are sensors, don't you think it was strange to add them after the paint job, while they were not be available at the first flight of the prototype?
Also, when you look closely, there seems to be 2 additional sensors below too, not sure but could be this:


----------



## sancho

@ptldM3

Still couldn't find out if it's a sensor or just a marking, but the T53 and 54 added around summer as well, while they didn't had it earlier.


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## DrSomnath999

*Russia to Develop Light-Class Fighter Jet*

MOSCOW, December 11 (RIA Novosti) – Russia will soon start developing a prototype of an advanced lightweight fighter jet to supplement fifth-generation T-50 aircraft, a top government official said Wednesday.

The new aircraft is expected to be cheaper to produce and easier to maintain, but should also possess combat capabilities and performance characteristics comparable with those of heavy-class aircraft.

“The development of a light-class fighter has been included in the current arms procurement program. It will be created,” said Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, addressing the lower house of parliament.

Rogozin, who oversees the defense and space industries, said light-class fighters were in greater demand abroad, compared to more advanced heavy-class aircraft, such as Su-30 or the planned T-50 fighter jets.

Russia is currently developing the heavy-class T-50 multirole fighter aircraft, also known as PAK-FA, which will be the core of the country’s future fighter fleet.

The T-50 is expected to enter service with the Russian air force in 2016.





The T-50 fifth-generation fighter



Rogozin, who first voiced the idea of developing a second type of a fifth-generation fighter in February 2012, said Wednesday that Russia has always had at least two types of tactical fighters that in general supplemented one another.

The latest example is a MiG-29/Su-27 pair.

Rogozin did not specify which of Russia’s two main designers of combat jets – MiG or Sukhoi – will be assigned the development of the future light-class fighter.

Russia to Develop Light-Class Fighter Jet | Defense | RIA Novosti


----------



## ptldM3

sancho said:


> @ptldM3
> 
> Still couldn't find out if it's a sensor or just a marking, but the T53 and 54 added around summer as well, while they didn't had it earlier.



I don't know if it's a sensor or just a marking, sorry too ambiguous.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> @ptldM3
> 
> Still couldn't find out if it's a sensor or just a marking, but the T53 and 54 added around summer as well, while they didn't had it earlier.



its a liitle odd place for a censor, but looking at it and how its wrapped around the intakes, just a wild thought..may some tests to measure the airflow or something? like testing the flush?


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## DrSomnath999

*COMBAT AIRCRAFT MONTHLY FEB 2014*

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> *COMBAT AIRCRAFT MONTHLY FEB 2014*



Feb 2014 in dec 2013?


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Feb 2014 in dec 2013?


DOnt worry these magazines can also post for year 2015 also  

Well refference to this article above 

i found this part really interesting



> According to a document from the Komsomolsk-on-Amur plant recently leaked on the internet,the airframe-building jigs will be modified after the completion of T-50-6-1; this may suggest that T-50-6-2 and* later aircraft will be significantly different from their predecessors.*



Hmm that would be interesting what significant changes the author may be implying ,We have to wait to find our answers

*CHEERS*


----------



## Gessler

Confusing..."52" written on nose, but "51" written on tail fin ?

@sancho

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## trident2010

Gessler said:


> Confusing..."52" written on nose, but "51" written on tail fin ?
> 
> @sancho



Typo ??


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> Confusing..."52" written on nose, but "51" written on tail fin ?
> 
> @sancho




Nice find, no idea what the reason is for that. Maybe they had problems with the fin of the T55-2 and quickly took the one of the T55-1 to remain the test flights. The T50-1 was basically meant for aero dynamic test and might have less importance now.

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## madooxno9

Истребитель пятого поколения (2013) © Крылья России - YouTube


----------



## IND151

PAK FA stealth features patent published | idrw.org





Details of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's work on the stealthy aspects of the T-50 PAK FA fighter aircraft emerged in late December 2013, when the company's patents were published.

According to the patent paperwork, taken together, all of the stealthy measures offer significant improvements over legacy fighter designs.* The papers claim that the radar cross-section (RCS) of an Su-27 was in the order of 10-15 m 2 , with the intention being to reduce the size of the RCS in the T-50 to an "average figure of 0.1-1 m 2 ".*

In common with other low observable aircraft designs,* this reduction is achieved through the use of radar-absorbing and radar-shielding materials and coatings, panel shaping (especially around the air intakes) and in the design of the junctions between moving elements, such as flaps and hatches.*

In particular, the patent spells out the benefits of internal weapons carriage, s-shaped engine air ducts, (which were considered but are actually not implemented in the production PAK FA), and the* use of radar blockers*. It adds that the inlet guide vanes of the engines' compressors generate "a significant portion [up to 60%] of the radar cross-section of the airframe-powerplant system in the forward hemisphere" and that this is reduced by using radar-blocking devices and radar-absorbing coatings in the walls of the air ducts.

*The shape of the airframe reduces the number of directions that radar signals are reflected in with the angles of sweep of the wings and the tail plane's leading and trailing edges, the edges of the air intakes and hatch covers being reduced and deflected from the aircraft's axis. Viewing the aircraft from the flank, the fuselage sides, lateral edges of the air intakes and vertical empennage are all deflected at the same angle.*

Some openings and slots on the airframe's surface - such as the *boundary-layer bleeds on the sides of the air intakes and the openings on the upper fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit - are covered with a thick grid, featuring a mesh of less than one quarter of the wavelength of a search radar, which reduces the reflections from these uneven surfaces.* Gaps between the airframe elements are filled with conducting sealants, while the glazing of the cockpit canopy is metallised.

*The surfaces of the PAK FA's own five radar arrays are also angled off from the vertical plane, helping to 'deflect' enemy radar signals. The covers of the radar arrays are selective, letting through their own signals, but blocking other frequencies. Additionally, the array compartments are edged with radar-absorbing 'curtains' to reduce possible leaks of these amplified signals.*

Antennas are recessed from the surface of the skin to reduce protuberances (the vertical empennage serves as a communications antenna), while the turret of the aircraft's nose-mounted infrared search-and-track (IRST) sight is rotated backwards into a cruise position, exposing its rear hemisphere, which is covered with a radar-absorbing coating.

The release of this list of patents follows the July 2013 release of documentation covering the configuration of the fighter's integrated avionics suite.

There are currently five T-50 prototypes - the latest, T-50-5, first flew on 27 October 2013 - supporting the development programme and they are believed to have undertaken over 300 sorties to date.

In the 'Schedule of Activity for the Russian Ministry of Defence for 2013 to 2020' published in mid-2013, the PAK FA's Initial Operational Capability and the launch of full-scale series production is scheduled for 31 December 2016. The Russian National Armament Programme stipulates that 60 production PAK FA fighters will be delivered between 2016 and 2020.

The assembly of aircraft T-50-6-1 is nearing completion and three further aircraft (T-50-6-2, T-50-7 and T-50-8) are in build. One of the T-50-6 aircraft is intended for static trials and the other one is intended for flight testing.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QqQIwAA&url=http://www.janes.com/article/32190/pak-fa-stealth-features-patent-published&ei=f1XSUtmZF8PDrAe62IDABg&usg=AFQjCNHvNHpjAQxH-DG7ppmGG8jnsGgKUg&bvm=bv.59026428,d.bmk


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## trident2010

Any ideas when will India gets the first prototype of T-50 for testing?


----------



## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Any ideas when will India gets the first prototype of T-50 for testing?



The first prototype for us is meant to arrive this year, not sure when exactly though and I wouldn't be too surprised if it's just a version of the latest T50, without many changes, since IAF first might be interested in evaluate what the Russians have developed so far, before thinking about what changes are neccessary to meet their requirements.

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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> The first prototype for us is meant to arrive this year, not sure when exactly though and I wouldn't be too surprised if it's just a version of the latest T50, without many changes, since IAF first might be interested in evaluate what the Russians have developed so far, before thinking about what changes are neccessary to meet their requirements.




There was an image from Sukhoi that showed India either is currently involved in development or will be involved in development. 

Thanks to Joe for the following image, i will use his quote.


"Joint research on the electronic model'


4342_w450.jpg


Also one of the displays for the pak-fa:


582356_original.jpg

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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> There was an image from Sukhoi that showed India either is currently involved in development or will be involved in development.



India is already involved in the development, but of the FGFA not the current T50 or the Pak Fa. Indian officials stated that HAL scientists are already in Russia too, to work on the FGFA modifications.


----------



## ejaz007

*PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter*

*Jan 16/14: T-50 trolling.* Rosoboronexport’s parent firm Rostec decides to troll the aviation world for lolz, with claims that the PAK-FA will have better stealth than the American F-22 Raptor:

“The average [radar cross section value] for the T-50 fighter is between 0.1 and 1 square meter…. the T-50 is now ahead of not only all other fighters of the Russian Army, but also foreign models. For example, the visibility of the American fifth-generation F-22 fighter is 0.3-0.4 square meters, according to PAK FA chief designer Alexander Davidenko.”

It’s a troll because there Russian PAK-FA range includes values that are a closer match for the Eurofighter than the F-22, and because Davidenko couldn’t know the F-22′s real production values without access to American flight test data. There are rumors that it’s smaller than 0.3 m2. These claims support the idea that the PAK-FA/SU-50 will be a legitimate stealth aircraft design, but production work affects final values for any plane. If it’s shoddy and alignment is poor, for instance, a design with RCS 0.1 m2 could easily hit 1.0 m2 in reality. Russia is known for many things, including excellent and robust fighter designs, but precision work? Not so much. A real comparison would involve test data involving production aircraft (q.v. Nov 12/12 caveats), which will show different values from various angles, and different success levels against different radar bands. That isn’t on offer for either plane.

Other points in the release are more informative, if true. Rostec says that composite materials are just 25% of the fighter’s weight, but cover 70% of its surface. A new power system design from Rostec’s Aviation Equipment provides double the amount of power offered by previous Russian systems. We hope they have better luck than Boeing has, but that power will be needed by the new avionics and related systems from Radioelectronic Technologies. With respect to the plane’s biggest current deficit, UEC has initial-model of the next-generation AL-41F1 thrust-vectoring engines installed in a prototype now, and Rostec feeds general expectations that the AL-41s will give the fighter supercruise capability. Sources: Rostec



, “The T-50 Fighter will feature even greater stealth capabilities” | Air & Cosmos, “Le T-50 russe serait plus furtif que le F-22″.

PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter


----------



## shree835

*Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF*

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has done a stunning about-turn, sharply criticising the showpiece Indo-Russian project to co-develop a futuristic Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Even as New Delhi and Moscow finalise a $6 billion deal to co-develop an FGFA with capabilities tailor-made for India, the IAF has alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance.

So vital is the FGFA considered for the IAF's future that Defence Minister A K Antony has publicly rejected any prospect of buying the American fifth generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, declaring the FGFA would suffice. In 2007, New Delhi and Moscow highlighted the fighter's criticality by signing an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) placing the project above MoD procurement rules. Moreover, Indian scientists say the expertise gained from the FGFA will provide crucial momentum for developing an all-Indian fifth generation fighter, designated the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Yet, with so much riding on the FGFA, the IAF has taken aback the MoD with its complaint that it would not be good enough. On December 24, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."

Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints. In October 2012, then IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, announced the IAF would buy only 144 FGFAs instead of the 214 that were originally planned. Having cut the numbers, the IAF is now questioning the very benefit of co-developing the FGFA with Russia.

Fifth-generation fighters are qualitatively superior to current "Generation 4.5" fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI. They are designed for stealth, which makes these near-invisible to radar; they "supercruise", that is, fly at supersonic speed without lighting engine afterburners (which some current fighters like the Rafale also do); and they have futuristic avionics and missiles.

The MoD and HAL have countered the IAF's objections to the FGFA. Russian officials have clarified that the current prototype's engine, the AL-41F1, is a temporary solution to let the flight-test programme continue. A new engine being developed in Russia will eventually power both the FGFA and PAK-FA.

Officials also say the FGFA programme involves co-developing radar far superior to the one on current prototypes. The Russian Air Force wants conventional radar for its version of the FGFA, which looks only towards the front. The IAF wants two additional radars that look side-wards, allowing the pilot vision all around. Now the Russians are evaluating a similar requirement.

Asked for comments, the IAF has not responded. The MoD and HAL, who were requested for comments via email, have also remained silent.

While the MoD, HAL and the IAF continue discussions, Russia has gone ahead with developing a fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has designed and done 300 test-flights of the T-50, the stealth fighter Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plan to refine into the FGFA in about eight years. The Russian Air Force, which has less ambitious specifications than the IAF, plans to induct into service its own version of the T-50, the PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or 'Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation') by 2017-18.

After the IGA of October 2007, a General Contract was signed in December 2008 between HAL and Rosoboronexport, Russia's defence exports agency. This laid out general principles of cooperation, such as work share, cost sharing and sale of the FGFA to third countries. In December 2010, a Preliminary Design Contract was signed, which led to the FGFA's basic configuration and selection of its systems and equipment. With that completed in June 2013, the crucial R&D contract is now being negotiated. This will encompass the actual design and development of the FGFA.

Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard


----------



## SR-91

@sancho , any insights on this article????


----------



## PARIKRAMA

To me the article above (post #1794) looks more like pressurizing tactic to
1. Signing of MMRCA and getting rafales
2. Expediting the FGFA plan for IAF
3. Counter measure soundbytes to may be justify need of Medium Weight AMCA

The fact of the matter is India wont look at F 35 bcz of the latest frost bites in Indo US relations and generally strong perception of suspicion on USA. So the sound bytes assume significance as IAF is wanting the Value for big Bucks spending. Thus they are stating the benchmark expectations.. In a way, i see it as a very positive development. At least its clear that IAF is looking at a much superior variant then the present PAKFA bird. It would be really interesting to see how now russian and indian agencies tries to match IAF expectations and give confidence to them for purchasing arnd 144 birds which i am sure will eventually go to 200 ...

Good work IAF.. don say later.. say the things now.. Be clear and get the best u can for spending big bucks.. Also notch up the propaganda more and get the other deals also done asap


----------



## sancho

SR-91 said:


> @sancho , any insights on this article????





> Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF
> The Indian Air Force alleges Russians reluctant to share critical design information, besides technical and cost issues
> 
> * Ajai Shukla | Mumbai January 21, 2014*



Do I have to say more? He is known to be A clueless about Air Force matters, B in the "routing" for the US (to say mildly).

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Do I have to say more? He is known to be A clueless about Air Force matters, B in the "routing" for the US (to say mildly).


Every other month he is pushing for the F-35! First it was as an alternative for the Rafale, now this is an almost certainty he is going after the FGFA program?! Even after the IAF has specifically stated an F-35 buy is out of the question. One really does have to question his motives....


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Every other month he is pushing for the F-35! First it was as an alternative for the Rafale, now this is an almost certainty he is going after the FGFA program?! Even after the IAF has specifically stated an F-35 buy is out of the question. One really does have to question his motives....



During the khobragade issue I saw a talkshow that he attended, was so funny what BS he stated in favour of the US. But it's not that unusual that media persons will be bought to spread one sided reports, or route the public opinion to a certain direction.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> During the khobragade issue I saw a talkshow that he attended, was so funny what BS he stated in favour of the US. But it's not that unusual that media persons will be bought to spread one sided reports, or route the public opinion to a certain direction.


Agreed, the Indian media is usually pathetically ignorant and sensational and take sides without being aware of even some of the facts.


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## Badbadman

sancho said:


> During the khobragade issue I saw a talkshow that he attended, was so funny what BS he stated in favour of the US. But it's not that unusual that media persons will be bought to spread one sided reports, or route the public opinion to a certain direction.


So regardless of this article, is everything under control for our 5th gen fighter from Russia ?


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## shree835

Badbadman said:


> So regardless of this article, is everything under control for our 5th gen fighter from Russia ?



Yes very much...Only Sukla Jee is going out of control.


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## SOHEIL



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## PARIKRAMA

*Gunning for the PAK-FA: What the IAF really wants*
January 24, 2014 Rakesh Krishnan Simha

*The IAF’s reported potshots at the PAK-FA stealth fighter programme may be intended to prod the Russians and their Indian partners to deliver a quality aircraft. [ Even i had stated the same]*

The Indian Air Force’s ack-ack salvo at the Russian-Indian PAK-FA stealth fighter programme has surprised defence industry watchers. But the spat is hardly unique and in fact mirrors the difficulties the United States and its close allies are experiencing over the troubled F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
*The IAF has five major complaints: the PAK-FA is too expensive, its engine unreliable, radar inadequate, stealth features badly engineered, and finally that India’s work share is too little. These complaints have an uncanny parallel to the issues dogging the American stealth programme, which has been blasted by the media, future customers and US lawmakers.

Technology: It’s a work in progress
*
Fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) programmes everywhere are experiencing serious teeth problems. The F-35 might be a uniquely disastrous project but even its big brother, the F-22 Raptor, is not out of the turbulence zone entirely. While the Americans claim the stealth interceptor is the best fighter ever created, several pilots have been spooked by performance issues beyond the F-22’s potentially deadly oxygen problem.

Considering that the Russian aerospace industry is smaller and less experienced than the Americans in designing and manufacturing high performance stealth aircraft, it’s almost certain they’ll face all sorts of issues as work progresses. But what’s also certain is the Russians – and their Indian partners – will sort out these glitches at various prototype stages.
*So what’s the IAF getting paranoid about?*

In India, the military does not dictate defence procurement policy – the civilian bureaucracy at the Ministry of Defence (MoD) does. So when a highly disciplined organisation such as the IAF uncharacteristically slams its own future fighter, then you can be sure the IAF brass is trying to put pressure on the MoD.
*Fighter envy
*
A professional fighting force such as the IAF is surely keeping a close watch on the Chinese J-20 and J-31 stealth aircraft programmes. The two Chinese aircraft have an uncanny resemblance to the American F-22 and F-35. This is because Chinese intelligence managed to steal the technology and blueprints relating to both aircraft.

The IAF’s worry is that the Chinese aircraft could end up being better than the PAK-FA. That would indeed be a disaster because the IAF will end up facing superior stealth aircraft on both the Western and Himalayan borders, assuming Beijing sells these fighters to Pakistan.

The IAF is hoping the MoD will send a clear message to the Russians: we don’t mind being second best to the United States, but we certainly don’t want to be second best to China or Pakistan.

The IAF’s fears are understandable. The arrival of the MiG-29 and the Sukhoi-30 MKI in the 1990s has given it a fearsome qualitative advantage over the Pakistan Air Force. For the first time since the 1960s – when the PAF acquired the F-104 Starfighters and F-86 Sabres from the United States – the IAF has aircraft that is a generation and a half ahead of the PAF. Ceding that advantage would be undoubtedly painful for the IAF.

*Share of work: Too little or too much to handle?
*
*I*ndia had earlier complained that Sukhoi is giving it only 15 percent of the R&D work share despite India paying half the development cost. It has expressed interest in developing some of the aircraft’s computers, software, guidance systems and other systems, as it did for a similar project with Russia producing a locally-made variant of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI strike aircraft.

The problem is Sukhoi may have its own legacy systems it wants to sell.

There is another parallel here – France’s Dassault, which had promised it would offset 50 per cent of the Rafale fighter work to India, is now backtracking. Its argument is that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is India’s leading aircraft maker, is not capable of absorbing the technology.

While the French are known to be a crafty bunch, and clearly want to welch on their promise, what’s undeniable is HAL has its limitations. *Last year the public sector company reportedly offered to surrender 35 percent of its 50 per cent work share in the PAK-FA project.*

*HAL’s copout had left the IAF fuming. Putting pressure on the MoD – which runs HAL – is perhaps the IAF’s insurance policy to ensure HAL does not spring such a nasty surprise again.*
*Costs: Expect prices to balloon
*
If the American stealth aircraft programme – or for that matter any weapons project – is an indicator, then the PAK-FA is likely to overshoot its budget. It’s almost a rule that big ticket weapons programmes come with cost overruns.

The project could end up costing India over $35 billion over the next two decades from the original $30 billion. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, a large percentage of the IAF’s capital budget will be locked up.

Perhaps the thinking at Air Headquarters is to fast forward the Rafale purchase by freeing up some cash earmarked for the PAK-FA. The stealth fighter being a project of strategic importance will get more cash anyway. Something along the lines of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier refurbishment, which India kept feeding until the costs ballooned from under a billion to more than $3 billion.
*Synergies are the key
*
While the IAF’s urgency is justified, there’s no need to panic – as yet. The PAK-FA project may indeed be rocket science but both Russia and India have the means to see the project through. Russia has the technology and India has the cash. More importantly, both countries have a pressing need for a stealth fighter. If necessity is the mother of invention, then this is the time.

Defence Industry Daily has an excellent take on the Russian-Indian project. “Russia wants a 5th generation fighter that keeps it competitive with American offerings, and builds on previous aerial and industrial success. India wants to maintain technical superiority over its rivals, and grow its aerospace industry’s capabilities. They hope to work together, and succeed. Will they?”

Gunning for the PAK-FA: What the IAF really wants | Russia & India Report


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## IND151

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 14101
> 
> 
> View attachment 14102
> 
> 
> View attachment 14103
> 
> 
> View attachment 14104



The last one is CGI,right?



PARIKRAMA said:


> To me the article above (post #1794) looks more like pressurizing tactic to
> 1. Signing of MMRCA and getting rafales
> 2. Expediting the FGFA plan for IAF
> 3. Counter measure soundbytes to may be justify need of Medium Weight AMCA
> 
> *The fact of the matter is India wont look at F 35 bcz of the latest frost bites in Indo US relations and generally strong perception of suspicion on USA*. So the sound bytes assume significance as IAF is wanting the Value for big Bucks spending. Thus they are stating the benchmark expectations.. In a way, i see it as a very positive development. At least its clear that IAF is looking at a much superior variant then the present PAKFA bird. It would be really interesting to see how now russian and indian agencies tries to match IAF expectations and give confidence to them for purchasing arnd 144 birds which i am sure will eventually go to 200 ...
> 
> Good work IAF.. don say later.. say the things now.. Be clear and get the best u can for spending big bucks.. Also notch up the propaganda more and get the other deals also done asap



The cost and potential delays are alone enough to make F-35 a no-no deal.


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## kurup

IND151 said:


> The last one is CGI,right?



All the images are CGI ......


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## IND151

sancho said:


> Do I have to say more? He is known to be A clueless about Air Force matters, B in the "routing" for the US (to say mildly).



What you think that production Pak Fa will get- DSI or S-Duct?

And kindly tell me that whether this is CGI?


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## kurup

IND151 said:


> What you think that production Pak Fa will get- DSI or S-Duct?



Neither . most probabaly some form of radar blocker .



> And kindly tell me that whether this is CGI?



All the images are CGI .


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## SOHEIL

IND151 said:


> What you think that production Pak Fa will get- DSI or S-Duct?
> 
> And kindly tell me that whether this is CGI?



*CGI *


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> What you think that production Pak Fa will get- DSI or S-Duct?



The earlier is not necessary, since even the current engine offers credible performance and the NG engine will push the envelope even higher. The latter is not needed if radar blocker are used, but we already know that there are curves in the intake and the positioning of the engine, but lets wait and see what the final versions will look like.


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## PARIKRAMA

@sancho 

Why do u see suddenly so much thrashing of PAKFA by mostly western experts who had picked up what so called IAF had "complained".. is this some conspiracy to push thru their own products? seems too much in media.. or is it typical indian media who knows nothing head and tail and are gng all bonkers abt so called expert views


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## Nova2

Stupid media had over exaggerated the situation  .IAF has its share of problem which will be figured out in time


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## IND151

sancho said:


> The earlier is not necessary, since even the current engine offers credible performance and the NG engine will push the envelope even higher. The latter is not needed if radar blocker are used,* but we already know that there are curves in the intake and the positioning of the engine*, but lets wait and see what the final versions will look like.



Elaborate this.

Also tell me how radar blockers work?


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## SOHEIL



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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> @sancho
> 
> Why do u see suddenly so much thrashing of PAKFA by mostly western experts who had picked up what so called IAF had "complained".. is this some conspiracy to push thru their own products? seems too much in media.. or is it typical indian media who knows nothing head and tail and are gng all bonkers abt so called expert views



Are there any western "experts" that came to that conclusion on their own, or do we see many rip off article, based on the pointless Ajay Shukla BS? I didn't even saw any official IAF complain about it, what he came up with, were stuff that is years old, like the engine issue that was solved by IAF chosing the Type 30 engine unlike the Russian airforce. So a lot of hot air in the media right now and until we really see some official statements, I don't see a reason to bother too much. 



IND151 said:


> Elaborate this.
> 
> Also tell me how radar blockers work?



Not have too much time, but when you look at the intake in certain pics, you can see areas that divert the airflow, basically like a DSI, only that it's in the air intake itself. On the opposite side, we have the gear bay, that also bends inside the intake and we know that the current engine is not positioned in a straight line as well, but tilted down and inwards, so it's not like the engine face is showing directly and openly to the intake. 
Radar blockers can be opened and closed, which results into higher or lower airflow to the engine. If high speed is need, it is opened to provide the maximum airflow and at this point it also will pass the most ammount of radar waves to the engine blades, which otherwise will be absorbed or redirected.


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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> Are there any western "experts" that came to that conclusion on their own, or do we see many rip off article, based on the pointless Ajay Shukla BS? I didn't even saw any official IAF complain about it, what he came up with, were stuff that is years old, like the engine issue that was solved by *IAF chosing the Type 30 engine unlike the Russian airforce.* So a lot of hot air in the media right now and until we really see some official statements, I don't see a reason to bother too much.




Type 30 engine was planned for PAK FA long before even the idea of FGFA came into existence.

If you think were going to spend billions of dollars on engine that were not going to use, *than I have a bridge in San Francisco to sale to you.*


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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 14497
> View attachment 14498
> View attachment 14499
> View attachment 14500
> View attachment 14501



Beautifull pictures ....

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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> Type 30 engine was planned for PAK FA long before even the idea of FGFA came into existence.
> 
> If you think were going to spend billions of dollars on engine that were not going to use, *than I have a bridge in San Francisco to sale to you.*



In theory, but in reality the Russian airforce is meant to get early Pak Fas with the current engines of the T50 prototopyes and only later version were meant to get further engines and radar upgrades. That's exactly what IAF rejected (years ago) and where India came in with fundings for the NG engine (which Russian government didn't funded on their own till then). So the Ajay Shukla claims are just old news cooked up once again to make it look like the IAF wouldn't like the fighter and to make a western alternative more interesting again, but the fact is, that IAF has simply different requirements and is ok with different time frames as the Russian counterparts.

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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> In theory, but in reality the Russian airforce is meant to get early Pak Fas with the current engines of the T50 prototopyes and only later version were meant to get further engines and radar upgrades.




2017 is the most realist date in which the PAK FA will enter service, and by then second stage engine will be more than ready so it makes no sense to go with current engines.




> That's exactly what IAF rejected (years ago) and where India came in with fundings for the NG engine (which Russian government didn't funded on their own till then)




The no money theory doesn't add up for several reasons, one of which is that we are currently funding several Military projects *alone with not a nickel from India*, with some of them even more expensive than the PAK FA, the Bulava program alone cost 15 billion , and PAK DA is going to be a heck of a lot more expensive than PAK FA, not mention LMFS and hosts of other UCAV projects.


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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> 2017 is the most realist date in which the PAK FA will enter service, and by then second stage engine will be more than ready so it makes no sense to go with current engines.



Haven't we discussed that before? The fact is, that your government wants to induct Pak Fa by 2015 and the type 30 will have first prototypes of the engine only by then (one reason why FGFA is delayed as well, since IAF as said insisted on the NG engine), so no matter what the delays of the program will cause at the end, the PLANS for Russian air force are divided into early and later Pak Fa versions, with the current and the NG engine.


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## Arzamas 16

sancho said:


> *Haven't we discussed that before? The fact is, that your government wants to induct Pak Fa by 2015 *




I assume you being an educated man like myself, know full well that 2015 is just not happening.

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## sancho

Arzamas 16 said:


> I assume you being an educated man like myself, know full well that 2015 is just not happening.



Of course, but the project being delayed is one thing, Pak Fa being planed to be inducted with the current engine another, so saying Russia had planed to induct Pak Fa with the type 30 all along is simply wrong, that's it. 
However, even I say IAF should had at least got some early Pak Fa's in a leasing contract, instead of the additional MKIs, because even if not all NG techs and capabilities will be available by then, operationally it will be a game changer and far more useful in A2A and A2G than Super 30, Su 35, Su 34, MMRCA...
But I am also happy that IAF is putting pressure on Russia to develop the fighter on higher standards and requirements, which definitely will be a benefit for the project as a whole.

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## sancho

Some latest T055 pics:

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## trident2010

When are they going to conduct weapons test with it?


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> When are they going to conduct weapons test with it?



They might even have, who knows? What we know is, that it has all systems integrated now, that some of the prototypes were flying with external pylons.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> They might even have, who knows? What we know is, that it has all systems integrated now, that some of the prototypes were flying with external pylons.



including the radar..?


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## sancho

Dash said:


> including the radar..?



Yes:



> *Sukhoi T-50 Moves to Radar, In-flight Refueling Tests *
> 
> August 31, 2012, 10:05 AM
> 
> The third prototype of Russia’s new T-50 stealth fighter now has an AESA radar...
> 
> ...Side number 53 is fitted with the AESA designed and built by the Scientific Research Institute of Instruments named after Tikhomirov (NIIP). The maker claims “considerable progress” in early ground and flight tests. The radar “corresponds to the best systems available elsewhere,” it said. NIIP also noted that tests of the PAK FA’s electro-optical sensor system have started...



Sukhoi T-50 Moves to Radar, In-flight Refueling Tests | Aviation International News

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## sancho



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## trident2010

nice pics


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## ejaz007

*PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter*

*Latest Update:*

*Jan 21/14: India.* India’s Air Force is directly criticizing the stealth fighter program, according to the minutes of a Dec 24/13 meeting chaired by secretary of defence production Gokul Chandra Pati:

“Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF’s three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter’s current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, “a large percentage of IAF’s capital budget will be locked up.”

On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF’s deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA’s engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India’s work share too low, and that the fighter’s price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints….”

Perhaps if India hadn’t structured its “$10 billion” MMRCA competition to completely ignore the costs of the competing aircraft, this wouldn’t be happening. But they did, and it is. It isn’t a surprise (q.v. Appendix B), but it’s a complication. Sources: India’s Business Standard, “Russia can’t deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF”.

PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter


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## Omega007

ejaz007 said:


> *PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter*
> 
> *Latest Update:*
> 
> *Jan 21/14: India.* India’s Air Force is directly criticizing the stealth fighter program, according to the minutes of a Dec 24/13 meeting chaired by secretary of defence production Gokul Chandra Pati:
> 
> “Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF’s three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter’s current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, “a large percentage of IAF’s capital budget will be locked up.”
> 
> On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF’s deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA’s engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India’s work share too low, and that the fighter’s price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.
> 
> Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints….”
> 
> Perhaps if India hadn’t structured its “$10 billion” MMRCA competition to completely ignore the costs of the competing aircraft, this wouldn’t be happening. But they did, and it is. It isn’t a surprise (q.v. Appendix B), but it’s a complication. Sources: India’s Business Standard, “Russia can’t deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF”.
> 
> PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter



Man take a hike,it has already been posted here like a hundred times before and,has been proven to be a false propaganda produced by a sellout well-known.


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## ejaz007

Omega007 said:


> Man take a hike,it has already been posted here like a hundred times before and,has been proven to be a false propaganda produced by a sellout well-known.




Care to explain your post.


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## Abingdonboy

ejaz007 said:


> Care to explain your post.


It's very simple, the news you have posted was denied in all its terms by the Russians and the IAF and MoD made absolutely 0 comments on the entire matter to indicate there was any particular displeasure on their part wrt the FGFA project, st least one concerns that were as serious as the report makes out. To the latter point of @Omega007 he is pointing to Mr Shukla's well known bias for the US products- particularly the F-35. He has made a case for this rather useless machine for a LONG time on his blog, in his articles and on any TV discussion he can get on. First he made the case for the F-35 instead of the Rafale, when he saw the Rafae-IAF was a an almost certainty he put the FGFA project in his crosshairs for a F-35 onslaught. 

All the noise around the IAF's issues with the FGFA project all trace back to this ONE report that contains NO actual evidence!!

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## ejaz007

But the reports seem to be coming from other sources also:

Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow | Fox News


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## IndoUS

ejaz007 said:


> But the reports seem to be coming from other sources also:
> 
> Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow | Fox News



Again man, look at their source, it is an American Air Force consultant. After the loss of F/A-18 and F-16IN, Boeing has been pushing for the sale of F/A-18 to the navy future ACC and also the F-35. They have been pushing for more sales of aircraft, to India, even to the point where some part for I believe F/A-18 are being supplied by Indian companies. F-35 specially had been put infront of Indian Air force and Navy, but both declined it to some extent because the aircraft is still under development and there will be no point in the Air Force to buy it when there is no technological return like there is for the FGFA. Only the navy is some what interested in the VTOL version of the F-35 for possible ACC use.


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## Abingdonboy

ejaz007 said:


> But the reports seem to be coming from other sources also:
> 
> Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow | Fox News


Yes and that can be traced back to Mr Shukla's report. The IAF has NEVER expressed their concerns wrt any ongoing procurements/projects. It was only AFTER Mr Shukla wrote his entirely fictitious blog post that all the subsequent reports came out. 


Again there is NO basis for this nonsense.



IndoUS said:


> Only the navy is some what interested in the VTOL version of the F-35 for possible ACC use.


Initially they were interested in the B (V/STOL variant) but later asked for briefings on the C (conventional Carrier variant with arrestor hook and takes off using catapults) as they are designing CATOBAR ACCs for their future fleet no longer STOPBAR configured ones.

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## ejaz007

I guess we shall have to wait to see whether the reports regarding IAF showing concerns about PAK FA are real or fabricated.

No harm in waiting.


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## kurup

shree835 said:


>



wrong thread buddy.


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## jarves

ejaz007 said:


> Care to explain your post.


*https://defence.pk/posts/5206803/*
*Criticism of FGFA project unfounded - Russian strategic analyst*


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## vostok

Russian Air Force received the first T-50 for state tests

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## trident2010

vostok said:


> Russian Air Force received the first T-50 for state tests



Good news!! Soon we will see the weapons test.

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## kurup

*Russian Air Force Receives PAK-FA Fighter Prototype*






A new advanced fighter jet prototype has been delivered to the Russian Air Force for testing, the manufacturer said Friday.

The first T-50 “stealth” fighter had been delivered to a military airfield in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region for test flights, the Sukhoi company said in a statement.

The chief air force commander, Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev, said in December that combat squadrons could expect deliveries of the production version, known by its Russian acronym PAK-FA for future tactical fighter aircraft, in 2016 at the latest.

The PAK-FA is slated to replace the country’s aging fleet of Soviet-era fighter jets.

The Sukhoi T-50 is a fifth-generation fighter jet and features a stealth profile with internal weapons bays for air and ground-attack weapons, thrust-vectoring engines for high-acceleration turns and an ability known as supercruise to fly supersonic without the use of a fuel-guzzling afterburner.

An export version, called the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), is also under development in a joint project with India for that country’s air force.

Experts consider the plane comparable to the only fifth-generation fighter currently in operation worldwide, the American F-22 Raptor, which entered service in 2005.

The Moscow-based Sukhoi has been conducting its own test flights of several of the aircraft since 2010, including in-flight refueling and high-agility maneuvers. The company said in October that these had produced favorable results.

Russian Air Force Receives PAK-FA Fighter Prototype | idrw.org

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## IND151

Russian Air Force Receives PAK-FA Fighter Prototype | idrw.org


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## spectribution

kurup said:


> *Russian Air Force Receives PAK-FA Fighter Prototype*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new advanced fighter jet prototype has been delivered to the Russian Air Force for testing, the manufacturer said Friday.
> 
> The first T-50 “stealth” fighter had been delivered to a military airfield in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region for test flights, the Sukhoi company said in a statement.
> 
> The chief air force commander, Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev, said in December that combat squadrons could expect deliveries of the production version, known by its Russian acronym PAK-FA for future tactical fighter aircraft, in 2016 at the latest.
> 
> The PAK-FA is slated to replace the country’s aging fleet of Soviet-era fighter jets.
> 
> The Sukhoi T-50 is a fifth-generation fighter jet and features a stealth profile with internal weapons bays for air and ground-attack weapons, thrust-vectoring engines for high-acceleration turns and an ability known as supercruise to fly supersonic without the use of a fuel-guzzling afterburner.
> 
> An export version, called the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), is also under development in a joint project with India for that country’s air force.
> 
> Experts consider the plane comparable to the only fifth-generation fighter currently in operation worldwide, the American F-22 Raptor, which entered service in 2005.
> 
> The Moscow-based Sukhoi has been conducting its own test flights of several of the aircraft since 2010, including in-flight refueling and high-agility maneuvers. The company said in October that these had produced favorable results.
> 
> Russian Air Force Receives PAK-FA Fighter Prototype | idrw.org



Until new engine no Supercruise. Never the less in A2A it will F 35B, F35C and J20 their @$$.



spectribution said:


> Until new engine no Supercruise. Never the less in A2A it will F35B and J20 their @$$.


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## vostok

spectribution said:


> Until new engine no Supercruise. Never the less in A2A it will F 35B, F35C and J20 their @$$.


Why? This engine is also capable of providing supersonic without afterburner. This is the same engine as use in Su-35.


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## spectribution

vostok said:


> Why? This engine is also capable of providing supersonic without afterburner. This is the same engine as use in Su-35.



TWR is very low, if supercruise only at mach 1.1 - 1.2. To fight F 22 you need M 1.5+. Even F 35 will get new engine or full 50000 pounds thrust of engine F135 in near future (2018+). It can also supercruise at mach 1.2.


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## vostok

spectribution said:


> TWR is very low, if supercruise only at mach 1.1 - 1.2. To fight F 22 you need M 1.5+. Even F 35 will get new engine or full 50000 pounds thrust of engine F135 in near future (2018+). It can also supercruise at mach 1.2.


No one knows the exact figures.


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## HRK

spectribution said:


> TWR is very low, if supercruise only at mach 1.1 - 1.2. To fight F 22 you need M 1.5+. Even F 35 will get new engine or full 50000 pounds thrust of engine F135 in near future (2018+). It can also supercruise at mach 1.2.





vostok said:


> No one knows the exact figures.



If no one have posted it earlier........

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## spectribution

vostok said:


> No one knows the exact figures.



Unless new engine, no F22, PERIOD.


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## proud_indian

*India hopes to put 272 Russia’s Su-30MKI fighters into service by 2018*

The Indian Air Force’s backlog of orders for Russia’s Su-30MKI fighters, makes up 272.

The fighters are assembled by India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) that has received a license from Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft maker.

*“Since India received 50 assembled planes from Russia, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited had assembled another 134 fighters in India,” a source close to the Indian company told Itar-Tass on Monday. “We hope to form 14 squadrons of Su-30MKI fighters by 2018. By this time we will have 272 such planes in service.”*

After this India might enlarge its backlog of orders, if the Sukhoi/HAL fifth generation fighter project or introduction into service of India’s own light fighter Tejas were delayed, the source said.

The Indian Air Force is expected to get its first squadron of Tejas in 2015 and the second one - in 2017. The project to build India’s Tejas fighters began in 1983. The plane made its maiden flight in January 2011.

India hopes to put 272 Russia’s Su-30MKI fighters into service by 2018 | Russia & India Report


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## trident2010

I think we gonna see 300+ Su-30MKIs in IAF. This along with Tejas, MIg-29UPGs, upgraded Mirage-2000s and FGFA will make IAF force to reckon with.


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## jarves

Nice thread


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## Reviewer21

Please can anyone tell me what's the status of Sukhoi/HAL PAK FGFA at present?


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## jarves

Reviewer21 said:


> Please can anyone tell me what's the status of Sukhoi/HAL PAK FGFA at present?


PAKFA and FGFA are different planes.Everything is fine as of now,in short PAKFA will rule the skies.


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## Reviewer21

Ohk sorry for that. No actually i wanted to know about the development of project FGFA. What's the status of it? 



jarves said:


> PAKFA and FGFA are different planes.Everything is fine as of now,in short PAKFA will rule the skies.


----------



## jarves

Reviewer21 said:


> Ohk sorry for that. No actually i wanted to know about the development of project FGFA. What's the status of it?


We will get the first prototype by late 2016 and will be ready to be inducted by 2020.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Reviewer21

Ohk so can we know how much work has been done on the prototype? Any pictures, news etc. 



jarves said:


> We will get the first prototype by late 2016 and will be ready to be inducted by 2020.


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## jarves

Reviewer21 said:


> Ohk so can we know how much work has been done on the prototype? Any pictures, news etc.


I dont have any updates and we will induct a mix of PAKFA and FGFA.


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## Reviewer21

jarves said:


> I dont have any updates and we will induct a mix of PAKFA and FGFA.


Man, now this is really confusing, if we are inducting mix then what about the fgfa program?


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## jarves

Reviewer21 said:


> Man, now this is really confusing, if we are inducting mix then what about the fgfa program?


These things totally depend upon the doctrine and need of Airforce.Only experts like @Abingdonboy can explain this now.


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## Reviewer21

@Abingdonboy bhai what is going in the FGFA project, how much work have been completed?



jarves said:


> We will get the first prototype by late 2016 and will be ready to be inducted by 2020.



Bro wiki is showing first flight of FGFA in 2014


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## DacterSaab

Reviewer21 said:


> Bro wiki is showing first flight of FGFA in 2014


wiki is not very reliable


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## Abingdonboy

jarves said:


> I dont have any updates and we will induct a mix of PAKFA and FGFA.


From what I understand, the PAK-FA was offered to the IAF as an interim/stop-gap solution until the FGFA is ready (2020/21) much like how the IAF initially got the SU-30Ks whilst the MKI was still under development. However the IAF has rejected this offer and now will only get the India-specific FGFA, meaning they have to wait a bit longer for a 5th gen fighter in their fleet.


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> From what I understand, the PAK-FA was offered to the IAF as an interim/stop-gap solution until the FGFA is ready (2020/21) much like how the IAF initially got the SU-30Ks whilst the MKI was still under development. However the IAF has rejected this offer and now will only get the India-specific FGFA, meaning they have to wait a bit longer for a 5th gen fighter in their fleet.



Not exactly, the initial Pak Fa offer was mainly rejected because IAF prefered twin seaters and Pak Fa is a single seater. Now they want both versions, but still reject the Pak Fa in it's first version, as it doesn't meet the IAF requirements for a 5th gen fighter as it seems. The fact that they still reject hints on, that the Pak Fa offer was not like the Su 30K deal, where Russia bought back the fighters in return for new MKIs, otherwise we could have bought early Pak Fas now and replaced it with fully developed single seat FGFAs later. So Russia might want us to buy a propper batch of their versions to increase the numbers for their production line, without the issues to sell them afterwards.


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## godofwar

sancho said:


> Not exactly, the initial Pak Fa offer was mainly rejected because IAF prefered twin seaters and Pak Fa is a single seater. *Now they want both versions*, but still reject the Pak Fa in it's first version, as it doesn't meet the IAF requirements for a 5th gen fighter as it seems. The fact that they still reject hints on, that the Pak Fa offer was not like the Su 30K deal, where Russia bought back the fighters in return for new MKIs, otherwise we could have bought early Pak Fas now and replaced it with fully developed single seat FGFAs later. So Russia might want us to buy a propper batch of their versions to increase the numbers for their production line, without the issues to sell them afterwards.



I thought IAF is only going for single seater version now...


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## sancho

godofwar said:


> I thought IAF is only going for single seater version now...



Unless I have missed something in the last few weeks, they want both versions according to the last air chief and personally I think the twin seat is even the better one for Indias or even future requirements.


----------



## godofwar

sancho said:


> Unless I have missed something in the last few weeks, they want both versions according to the last air chief and personally I think the twin seat is even the better one for Indias or even future requirements.




This is from Oct 2013

MOSCOW, October 25 (RIA Novosti) – India’s share in research-and-development work for the joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project with Russia is currently limited by India's domestic industrial capabilities but will gradually increase with the project’s implementation, a Russian military expert said Friday.

India’s The Economic Times newspaper reported on October 17 that Indian military officials were concerned over the country’s work share in the FGFA project, which is currently only 15 percent even though New Delhi is bearing 50 percent of the cost.

According to the paper, India’s defense minister is expected to raise that issue during his visit to Russia beginning November 15.

“The figure cited by the Indian side reflects current capabilities of India’s industry, in particular the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] corporation,” said Igor Korotchenko, head of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Global Arms Trade.

“With the progress in the implementation of this project, we expect the Indian engineers and designers to approach the share determined in the [Russian-Indian] agreement: 50 percent,” Korotchenko said in an exclusive interview with RIA Novosti.

Russia will certainly provide all necessary knowledge and logistics support to Indian specialists, but developing skills and acquiring experience in design and development of advanced fighter aircraft takes a long time and substantial effort, the expert added.

The FGFA project began following a Russian-Indian agreement on cooperation in the development and production of the perspective multirole fighter, signed on October 18, 2007.

The Indian fighter jet will be based on the Russian single-seat Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, which now has four prototypes flying, but it will be designed to meet about 50 specific requirements by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

In December 2010, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russian aircraft maker Sukhoi Company signed a preliminary design development contract worth $295 million for the new aircraft.





© RIA Novosti.
Russian Fith-Generation t-50 Fighter Jet



Currently the $11 billion final design and research-and-development contract is under negotiation between the two countries. The total program is expected to cost India about $25 billion to 30 billion.

*The IAF had initially planned to order 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters, but India’s chief of air staff said in October last year that New Delhi would now go for only 144 single-seat jets, with domestic production slated to begin in 2020.
*
India’s Share in Joint Fighter Project With Russia Likely to Grow | Defense | RIA Novosti


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## sancho

godofwar said:


> This is from Oct 2013



That is only about the first batch of fighters and is more a cost control measure than a change of the requirement. IAF still wants twin seaters, but with the 2nd lot of Pak Fa and the first FGFAs being in a similar production standard, the bigger order can keep costs reasonable. The costs for the twin seater can later be reduced through exports again and the success of the Su 30 compared of the failure of the Su 35 on the export market, shows the potential.


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## godofwar

sancho said:


> That is only about the first batch of fighters and is more a cost control measure than a change of the requirement. IAF still wants twin seaters, but with the 2nd lot of Pak Fa and the first FGFAs being in a similar production standard, the bigger order can keep costs reasonable. The costs for the twin seater can later be reduced through exports again and the success of the Su 30 compared of the failure of the Su 35 on the export market, shows the potential.



I wonder why they want to spend so much money on modifying a single seat plane into a twin seat version and sacrifice performance a& RCS.
What advantages does that give exactly ?
Are the twin seaters meant for Strategic Air Command ?


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## sancho

godofwar said:


> I wonder why they want to spend so much money on modifying a single seat plane into a twin seat version and sacrifice performance a& RCS.
> What advantages does that give exactly ?
> Are the twin seaters meant for Strategic Air Command ?



Advantages in strike roles or recon roles, in long endurance operations (air superiority over a large area), in future joint operations with UAVs or UCAVs (WSO controls, Rustom H or AURA), the advantages of the twin seat config especially for fighters that are meant for both roles like the F15 Strike Eagle, the F16 Sufa, the Rafale, or the Su 30 shouldn't be underestimated.

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## 45'22'

After India, Russia Offers Brazil Joint Development Of T-50 Fighter Aircraft


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## longlong

sancho said:


> Advantages in strike roles or recon roles, in long endurance operations (air superiority over a large area), in future joint operations with UAVs or UCAVs (WSO controls, Rustom H or AURA), the advantages of the twin seat config especially for fighters that are meant for both roles like the F15 Strike Eagle, the F16 Sufa, the Rafale, or the Su 30 shouldn't be underestimated.


1) One side you want to take out human to make UAV, another side you want put one more human into the cockpit to make FGFA.
2) That's why all 5th gen fighter ever flown are single seat.


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## sancho

longlong said:


> 1) One side you want to take out human to make UAV, another side you want put one more human into the cockpit to make FGFA.
> 2) That's why all 5th gen fighter ever flown are single seat.



Where did I stated that I want to take out human for UAVs? I am talking about joint tactics of mixed UCAV and fighter formations in which twin seaters are the first choice, since the WSO will take over control if needed. That is even visible today, where F18 twin seaters, or the latest batch of Apache helicopters are modifed to take over control over UAVs. That is part of modern netcentric warfare and will be even more important in future, when fighters and UCAVs are mixed.












Btw, the F22 as well as the F35 were planned with two seat configs too, several F35 operators like Israel even asked for it, but in both cases budget constrains killed the developments.


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Advantages in strike roles or recon roles, in long endurance operations (air superiority over a large area), in future joint operations with UAVs or UCAVs (WSO controls, Rustom H or AURA), the advantages of the twin seat config especially for fighters that are meant for both roles like the F15 Strike Eagle, the F16 Sufa, the Rafale, or the Su 30 shouldn't be underestimated.



Hi sancho,
there are disadvantage to a twin-seat config like
additional cost of training and maintaining double number of pilots
RCS penalties (I believe they can be technologically overcome)
additional cost of equipment in the cockpit (although it's not a considerable sum)

I also read somewhere that research done by Americans shows that use of advanced avionics, 360 degree scanning radars and helmet mounted display and targeting systems reduce pilot workload sufficiently to allow him to concentrate on more comprehensive missions.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Hi sancho,
> there are disadvantage to a twin-seat config like
> additional cost of training and maintaining double number of pilots
> RCS penalties (I believe they can be technologically overcome)
> additional cost of equipment in the cockpit (although it's not a considerable sum)
> 
> I also read somewhere that research done by Americans shows that use of advanced avionics, 360 degree scanning radars and helmet mounted display and targeting systems reduce pilot workload sufficiently to allow him to concentrate on more comprehensive missions.



Everything has it's pros and cons, yes they are more complex and therefor more expensive, but in operational terms a twin seat configs have clear advantages for multi role fighters. Take the Libyan conflict as an example, where single EF had difficulties to guide the LGBs in strike role and needed assistance of twin seat Tornados. That although the EF is one of the most advanced fighters when it comes to avionics and the fact that the fighters had freedom to fly over Libya. In the Indian scenario with far more capable enemies, the workload for a single pilot will be far higher and more difficult to handle, especially for the top line fighters like MKI, that are meant for long endurance and range missions.


----------



## he-man

jarves said:


> PAKFA and FGFA are different planes.Everything is fine as of now,in short PAKFA will rule the skies.



the only major diff will be engines ie type 30 in fgfa vs al-41 modification(modified su-35 engine) in pakfa

radar will be same
indian fgfa may have rear radar for 360 degree coverage though

the external shape will unfortunately be same but even pakfa may have modifications after static tests which were scheduled for 6 th or 7 th prototype.

contrary to what ppl are saying here,2 seater is dead due to cost and rcs issues.

the equipment on this will be predominantly russian only and will not be like mki.
no one is gonna give us 5 th gen tech except russians and after crimea its even more improbable


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Everything has it's pros and cons, yes they are more complex and therefor more expensive, but in operational terms a twin seat configs have clear advantages for multi role fighters. Take the Libyan conflict as an example, where single EF had difficulties to guide the LGBs in strike role and needed assistance of twin seat Tornados. That although the EF is one of the most advanced fighters when it comes to avionics and the fact that the fighters had freedom to fly over Libya. In the Indian scenario with far more capable enemies, the workload for a single pilot will be far higher and more difficult to handle, especially for the top line fighters like MKI, that are meant for long endurance and range missions.



The whole point of 5 th generation is a very competent sensor fusion to eliminate the need for second pilot.

Its universal trend all over.

Saying this no one knows the degree of automation in pakfaexcept russians so its premature to pass judgement now


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## sancho

he-man said:


> The whole point of 5 th generation is a very competent sensor fusion to eliminate the need for second pilot.



Wrong, in the past we had dedicated fighters for dedicated roles, but today the pilots have to do far more and are trained in far more roles too, therefor modern sensors and sensor fusion help to handle these situations in a better way, but not to delete the need of a second pilot. No sensor can make a pilot to be less tired in a 8h long endurance mission, while the pilots of an MKIs will handle such situations far easier with a second pilot at their side. 

It also has nothing to do with 5th generation, since even modern 4.5th gen fighters adds sensor fusion capabilities and still are aimed on twin seaters too.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Wrong, in the past we had dedicated fighters for dedicated roles, but today the pilots have to do far more and are trained in far more roles too, therefor modern sensors and sensor fusion help to handle these situations in a better way, but not to delete the need of a second pilot. No sensor can make a pilot to be less tired in a 8h long endurance mission, while the pilots of an MKIs will handle such situations far easier with a second pilot at their side.
> 
> It also has nothing to do with 5th generation, since even modern 4.5th gen fighters adds sensor fusion capabilities and still are aimed on twin seaters too.



U are right second pilot helps but cost to benefit ratio is too high to be implementable.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> U are right second pilot helps but cost to benefit ratio is too high to be implementable.



According to you, do you know the cost of the twin seat fighter?


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## he-man

sancho said:


> According to you, do you know the cost of the twin seat fighter?



No need to be so aggressive.
Its a no brainer that price will rise and so will the rcs

With average rcs of pakfa already about .5 m2 its a stupid decision.

Plus there have been at least a dozen news reports that we have shelved plans for a twin seat config


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## sancho

he-man said:


> No need to be so aggressive.
> Its a no brainer that price will rise and so will the rcs
> 
> With average rcs of pakfa already about .5 m2 its a stupid decision.



 Agressive? Only because I asked you to prove your claim? When you look at the last few pages there are a lot of claims of you, that barely have any base. The cost difference between a single and a twin seater usually is only a few millions and given the ammount of operational benefits that would bring, it's actually a must have. The only reason why we went with the single seat version at first is, that it's cheaper to develop and produce 2 single seat versions at the begining, to keep costs under control and later, add the twin seater, when the ammount of produced numbers reducing the costs again. 

Btw, the 0.5m² is the estimate in some "media reports" for the current T50 prototype, unfinished in design and untreated with coatings.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Agressive? Only because I asked you to prove your claim? When you look at the last few pages there are a lot of claims of you, that barely have any base. The cost difference between a single and a twin seater usually is only a few millions and given the ammount of operational benefits that would bring, it's actually a must have. The only reason why we went with the single seat version at first is, that it's cheaper to develop and produce 2 single seat versions at the begining, to keep costs under control and later, add the twin seater, when the ammount of produced numbers reducing the costs again.
> 
> Btw, the 0.5m² is the estimate in some "media reports" for the current T50 prototype, unfinished in design and untreated with coatings.



What did I say?
I said the same thing.

Plus not only india,majority of 5 th gen planes are single seaters only.
Again ppl must have thought hard.

On the rcs part the average value is .5 m2 according to russian yardstick that says f-22 is only .3-.4 m2 but even in patent analysis same figure is used repeatedly.

They say it will be 30 times or so less than su-27 which is at about 20 m2 .

And yes u are just trying to prove something rejected by all airforces going for 5 th gen .


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## sancho

he-man said:


> What did I say?
> I said the same thing.



Not really, you said the cost benefit ratio would be against the twin seater, but neither do you know the actual cost of the twin seater, nor did you actually thought about the benefits of the twin seater.



he-man said:


> Plus not only india,majority of 5 th gen planes are single seaters only.
> Again ppl must have thought hard.



Already explained earlier, the twin seat developments were cancelled or on hold for funding reasons, because the development of F22 and F35 already were too high, not because there wasn't an operational benefit or need for it:



> Intriguingly, Romig said that if the US Air Force returns to the days of “back-seat” electronic warfare officers, the F-35 could control a swarm of four “buddy” UAVs. He didn’t directly say that Lockheed is considering two-seat F-35s, but the possibility tanatalises. (Two years ago, we reported that Israeli industry officials already anticipated the emergence of a two-seat F-35 eventually


Chief skunk on 6th-gen fighters, 2-seat F-35s & classified UAVs - The DEW Line

That's the same reason why we also get FGFA in common single seat version to Russias Pak Fa and LATER add the twin seater, when the costs of the whole development are more reasonable.




he-man said:


> On the rcs part the average value is .5 m2 according to russian yardstick that says f-22 is only .3-.4 m2 but even in patent analysis same figure is used repeatedly.
> 
> They say it will be 30 times or so less than su-27 which is at about 20 m2 .
> 
> And yes u are just trying to prove something rejected by all airforces going for 5 th gen .



Why should I? The point was only that the current estimate is based on the T50 prototypes, not on the serial production and fully developed Pak Fa, let alone the FGFA. We don't even know what futher design changes, coatings or technical additions will come, so I take these estimates now with a pinch of salt anyway. But you base the "estimate" of the prototype, add an unknown increase for the twin seater and conclude that it's bad and not worth it. That is what I take as baseless!

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Not really, you said the cost benefit ratio would be against the twin seater, but neither do you know the actual cost of the twin seater, nor did you actually thought about the benefits of the twin seater.
> 
> 
> 
> Already explained earlier, the twin seat developments were cancelled or on hold for funding reasons, because the development of F22 and F35 already were too high, not because there wasn't an operational benefit or need for it:
> 
> 
> Chief skunk on 6th-gen fighters, 2-seat F-35s & classified UAVs - The DEW Line
> 
> That's the same reason why we also get FGFA in common single seat version to Russias Pak Fa and LATER add the twin seater, when the costs of the whole development are more reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I? The point was only that the current estimate is based on the T50 prototypes, not on the serial production and fully developed Pak Fa, let alone the FGFA. We don't even know what futher design changes, coatings or technical additions will come, so I take these estimates now with a pinch of salt anyway. But you base the "estimate" of the prototype, add an unknown increase for the twin seater and conclude that it's bad and not worth it. That is what I take as baseless!



U can keep living or believing as u please but hear what I am writing here.

There will be no major structural change,none.after static test of 6 th or 7 th proto which is non flying version some minor adjustment be made,thats all.

We are gonna get the same machine with a diff engine and maybe an extra rear radar.

Internals will be same and have same processor,elbrus most probably and so will be irst etc.

We may opt for a french or israeli pod though,the lcd displays maybe samtel ones,thats it.

Composites maybe yes,ram=no chance.that will be russian only.

U may ask for proof,i have none but I will be proved right eventually


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## sancho

he-man said:


> U can keep living or believing as u please but hear what I am writing here.
> 
> There will be no major structural change,none.after static test of 6 th or 7 th proto which is non flying version some minor adjustment be made,thats all.



Which is not surprising, since these are still prototypes for Russias early Pak Fa! But their later version and our FGFA version should be clearly different, by the simple fact that they will integrate the new engines, which then will come with changes of the engine coverings, that now are neither shaped, coated or even painted. The rest is still sectret and we can only speculate on radar blockers, S-ducts, shaped IRST or optical sensors, new TVN...
But if you think you know all that today, well...

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Which is not surprising, since these are still prototypes for Russias early Pak Fa! But their later version and our FGFA version should be clearly different, by the simple fact that they will integrate the new engines, which then will come with changes of the engine coverings, that now are neither shaped, coated or even painted. The rest is still sectret and we can only speculate on radar blockers, S-ducts, shaped IRST or optical sensors, new TVN...
> But if you think you know all that today, well...



I would love the changes u are suggesting but ain't gonna happen yaar,nope.

Structurally same straight ducts with stupid radar blocker


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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> U can keep living or believing as u please but hear what I am writing here.
> 
> There will be no major structural change,none.after static test of 6 th or 7 th proto which is non flying version some minor adjustment be made,thats all.



Static test of What? 

What kind of static test?


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> Static test of What?
> 
> What kind of static test?


There will be a static test for rcs and minor adjustments can occur after that.

6 th or 7 th proto


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## sancho

Some nice PS's from the Key forum, credits to crow11

*FGFA






Pak Fa desert camo











*

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## sancho

Not sure how reliable these infos and specs are, but still interesting:

(google translated)


> *Deliveries promising aviation complex tactical aircraft in the Air Force to start trial operation will begin in 2016*
> 
> ...Mikhail Pogosyan.
> _"It is planned to complete the first stage of state joint tests in 2015 and 2016 with the delivery of the aircraft to begin trial operation in the Air Force,"..._
> 
> ..._Fighter with a long name "promising aviation complex tactical aviation" has successfully completed dozens of test flights. OKB "Dry" started to produce small batches of PAK FA in 2013, and in 2016 to bring mass production to full capacity. Estimated value of the car - $ 100 million
> Tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft PAK FA / T-50:_
> 
> 
> _Crew: 1 person_
> _Length: 19.4 m_
> _Wingspan: 14 m_
> _Swipe back GO: 10.8 m_
> _Height: 4.8m_
> _Wing Area: 90 m_
> _Weight empty: 17,500 kg Normal take-off weight: 63% Fuel: 26510 kg with 100% fuel: 30610 kg Maximum takeoff weight: 35,480 kg_
> _Fuel Weight: 11100 kg_
> _Engine:_
> 
> 
> _Engine Type: Turbofan with afterburner and thrust vector control_
> _Model: "AL-41F1" (on the prototype and the first batches of aircraft engine "second phase" has a factory designation "Article 129")_
> _Limiting speed at altitude: 2125-2600 km / h (2,0-2,45 M)_
> _Besforsazhnom Maximum speed: 1300-2100 km / h (1.1-2.0 M)_
> _Practical range: at cruising speed from 63% fuel: 2700 km with 100% of fuel: 4300 km 2 FTB 5500 km besforsazhnom supersonic speed from 63% of fuel: 1200 km with 100% of fuel: 2000 km_
> _Flight Duration: up to 5.8 h_
> _Service ceiling: 20,000 m_
> _Rate of climb: 350 m / s_
> _Takeoff / distance: 350 m_
> _Cannon Armament: 30 mm cannon built (upgraded GS-301)_
> _Warload: 1310-10000 kg for air combat, weapons bays: 1620 kg (8 x RVV-SD + 2 x RVV-MD) against ground targets, weapons bays: 4220 kg (8 x CC-500 + 2 x RVV -MD)_
> _Point suspension: Internal: 8 or 10 external 8 or 2_



Google ц°bersetzer


And a new pic:

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## Gessler

> Tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft PAK FA / T-50:
> Crew: 1 person
> Length: 19.4 m
> Wingspan: 14 m
> Swipe back GO: 10.8 m
> Height: 4.8m
> Wing Area: 90 m
> Weight empty: 17,500 kg Normal take-off weight: 63% Fuel: 26510 kg with 100% fuel: 30610 kg Maximum takeoff weight: 35,480 kg
> Fuel Weight: 11100 kg
> 
> Engine:
> Engine Type: Turbofan with afterburner and thrust vector control
> Model: "AL-41F1" (on the prototype and the first batches of aircraft engine "second phase" has a factory designation "Article 129")
> Limiting speed at altitude: 2125-2600 km / h (2,0-2,45 M)
> Besforsazhnom Maximum speed: 1300-2100 km / h (1.1-2.0 M)
> 
> Practical range: at cruising speed from 63% fuel: 2700 km with 100% of fuel: *4300 km* 2 FTB 5500 km besforsazhnom supersonic speed from 63% of fuel: 1200 km with 100% of fuel: *2000 km*
> Flight Duration: up to 5.8 h
> 
> Service ceiling: 20,000 m ( 65,000+ ft )
> Rate of climb: 350 m / s
> Takeoff / distance: 350 m
> 
> Cannon Armament: 30 mm cannon built (upgraded GS-301)
> Warload: *1310-10000 kg* for air combat, weapons bays: 1620 kg *(8 x RVV-SD + 2 x RVV-MD)* against ground targets, weapons bays: 4220 kg *(8 x CC-500 + 2 x RVV -MD)*
> Point suspension: Internal: 8 or 10 external 8 or 2



Поставки перспективного авиационного комплекса фронтовой авиации в ВВС для начала опытной эксплуатации начнутся с 2016 года — ОРУЖИЕ РОССИИ, Информационное агентство

Not sure if everything is confirmed by officials or not, but if it's true, PAK-FA is a beast.







Copyright : *bbb4445*


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## illusion8

Gessler said:


> Поставки перспективного авиационного комплекса фронтовой авиации в ВВС для начала опытной эксплуатации начнутся с 2016 года — ОРУЖИЕ РОССИИ, Информационное агентство
> 
> Not sure if everything is confirmed by officials or not, but if it's true, PAK-FA is a beast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Copyright : *bbb4445*



That's ps'ed most likely.


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## jarves

Cant miss this thread so posting here.


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## trident2010

Any new tests done recently?


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## Gessler

illusion8 said:


> That's ps'ed most likely.



Ofcourse it's not real, but a good work of art.

Don't share it without credit to that person though (bbb4445).


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## he-man

jarves said:


> Cant miss this thread so posting here.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Not sure how reliable these infos and specs are, but still interesting:
> 
> (google translated)
> 
> 
> Google ц°bersetzer
> 
> 
> And a new pic:



Small question 
We are getting some TOT for tge M88 engine & some for this engine to be used in Pak Fa 
So are we getting some critical tech 
If yes how will it help in developing Kaveri further


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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> Small question
> We are getting some TOT for tge M88 engine & some for this engine to be used in Pak Fa
> So are we getting some critical tech
> If yes how will it help in developing Kaveri further



Nope 0

Russian type 30 vce engine is 100 pc russian,we have 0 contribution technically as well as financially

0

Infact we haven't even signed the r&d contract committing our 5.5 billion $ for pakfa project and russians already have 5 prototypes flying and development of type 30 engine has already started

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## sancho

illusion8 said:


> That's ps'ed most likely.



Yes it is:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 126



Echo_419 said:


> Small question
> We are getting some TOT for tge M88 engine & some for this engine to be used in Pak Fa
> So are we getting some critical tech
> If yes how will it help in developing Kaveri further



Hopefully it helps, but that needs to be seen and it will take time. You have absorb the techs on the one side and implement it into Kaveri on the other. A co-development with an experienced partner would had been the faster and easier way. For Type 30, we also made the mistake to not go for a joint development, or at least to modify the engine to our requirements, at least there is no hint for such contracts so far. Another chance we missed to gain experience and know how in a more effective and faster way.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Yes it is:
> 
> Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 126
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully it helps, but that needs to be seen and it will take time. You have absorb the techs on the one side and implement it into Kaveri on the other. A co-development with an experienced partner would had been the faster and easier way. For Type 30, we also made the mistake to not go for a joint development, or at least to modify the engine to our requirements, at least there is no hint for such contracts so far. Another chance we missed to gain experience and know how in a more effective and faster way.


Considering type 30 is a vce just like kaveri it was stupid not to opt for a jv.


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## jarves

he-man said:


>


Dont worry it will take only some days for me to read the whole thread.


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## arp2041



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## Haitham

I read some news that india is disappointed from PAK-FA as Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar said 
is that right???


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## jarves

Haitham said:


> Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar said


Can you give a link for this?? Anyway read this-

Criticism of FGFA project unfounded - Russian strategic analyst | Russia & India Report

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## Haitham

jarves said:


> Can you give a limk for this?? Anyway read this-


i read the news in the "Business Standard"
but i can't add link because i'm new comer


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## jarves

Haitham said:


> i read the news in the "Business Standard"
> but i can't add link because i'm new comer


Cut the front part and and rear part and then post it here.

@Haitham Just tell me the heading of the article.


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## Haitham

jarves said:


> Cut the front part and and rear part and then post it here.


okay i don't understand what i cut hahaha 
but what i talking with about i found it in the link you provided quoted as "Business Standard" click the the link it will redirect you to the article


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## he-man

jarves said:


> Can you give a link for this?? Anyway read this-
> 
> Criticism of FGFA project unfounded - Russian strategic analyst | Russia & India Report



Read the first paragraph of article 

@Abingdonboy


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## sancho

Haitham said:


> okay i don't understand what i cut hahaha
> but what i talking with about i found it in the link you provided quoted as "Business Standard" click the the link it will redirect you to the article



The Business Standard article is most likely from Ajay Shukla again, which is a US lobbiest, who claims a lot of BS. He mixed up claims and old reports about IAF rejecting the early Pak Fa and insisting on the newly developed engine, to create sensational news, but IAF never confirmed that and the Russians corrected that as Jarves pointed out.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> The Business Standard article is most likely from Ajay Shukla again, which is a US lobbiest, who claims a lot of BS. He mixed up claims and old reports about IAF rejecting the early Pak Fa and insisting on the newly developed engine, to create sensational news, but IAF never confirmed that and the Russians corrected that as Jarves pointed out.



new stuff

_According to the RIA Novosti report with reference to the factory director, Alexandra Logvinova, the latest radio-electronic warfare station Himalaya for the T-50 will soon deliver the Stavropol Radio Factory Signal, which is a part of __Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies__. _

According to the news agency, the serial supplies of the fifth-generation fighter T-50 will begin in 2016. The electronic warfare station is one of the key elements of the project. The air force got the first T-50 for testing last winter.

Only one country in the world, the United States of America, has already the fifth-generation fighters: the planes F-22 and F-35. According to the interlocutor of the Agency, the electronic warfare for the T-50 has much smaller dimensions than the previous generation station.

It was reported earlier that the T-50 will receive the unique aviation systems and the units, which will reduce the overall weight of the plane, while increasing the service life. The first flight of the fighter T-50 (PAK FA, for its Russian initials) was held on the 29th of January in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in 2010.

Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies is a part of the state corporation Rostec. The group was formed in 2009. Today, KRET is the largest Russian scientific and industrial consortium, which works in the development and manufacture of aerial, land and naval radio-electronic complexes and systems both for military and double purposes.
Rostec :: News :: The T-50 fighter got the radio-electronic system Himalaya


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## he-man

a photo speaks a thousand words

this has been taken from paralay.com forum







no matter how we try to justify but russians just screwed up in designing this bird,period

@Dillinger
@sancho
@Abingdonboy

any comments??


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## ptldM3

he-man said:


> a photo speaks a thousand words
> 
> this has been taken from paralay.com forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no matter how we try to justify but russians just screwed up in designing this bird,period
> 
> @Dillinger
> @sancho
> @Abingdonboy
> 
> any comments??




Thank you, amazing how you can judge how an aircraft performs by looking at a picture. The picture was obviously meant to show how different the pak-fa is compared the the Flanker.

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## atlssa

he-man said:


> a photo speaks a thousand words
> 
> this has been taken from paralay.com forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no matter how we try to justify but russians just screwed up in designing this bird,period
> 
> @Dillinger
> @sancho
> @Abingdonboy
> 
> any comments??



A fifth-generation fighter is not just about design. It incorporates numerous technological advances over the fourth generation jet fighter.

Basically, it keeps all-aspect stealth (low RCS) even when armed, Low Probability of Intercept Radar (LPIR), high-performance air frames, advanced avionics features, and highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the theatre of war for situational awareness.



ptldM3 said:


> The picture was obviously meant to show how different the pak-fa is compared the the Flanker.



Visually speaking... and only that!

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## ViXuyen

he-man said:


> a photo speaks a thousand words
> 
> this has been taken from paralay.com forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no matter how we try to justify but russians just screwed up in designing this bird,period
> 
> @Dillinger
> @sancho
> @Abingdonboy
> 
> any comments??


This bird is obviously a monkey model the Rassian is trying to con tens of billions of dollars out of its potential customers.


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## atlssa

ViXuyen said:


> This bird is obviously a monkey model the Rassian is trying to con tens of billions of dollars out of its potential customers.



Do you consider it "monkey model" just because it is Russian?


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## ViXuyen

atlssa said:


> Do you consider it "monkey model" just because it is Russian?


 Stealth is mostly by shaping. does that thing look anywhere close to the F-22, F-35? India is getting conned out of tens of billions of dollars.


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## gambit

he-man said:


> a photo speaks a thousand words
> 
> this has been taken from paralay.com forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no matter how we try to justify but russians just screwed up in designing this bird,period
> 
> @Dillinger
> @sancho
> @Abingdonboy
> 
> any comments??


That is an excellent 'chop job to make a point.


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## atlssa

ViXuyen said:


> Stealth is mostly by shaping. does that thing look anywhere close to the F-22, F-35? India is getting conned out of tens of billions of dollars.



Well, I does not mean it has to look like the F-22 nor F-35 to have a low RCS. Not to mention that the F-35 is not as stealth as advertised.


F-35 fails stealth test: Report says JSF vulnerable to tracking by Russia, China
F-35 fails stealth test: Report says JSF vulnerable to tracking by Russia, China - World Tribune | World Tribune


New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Hide From Russian Radar
New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Hide From Russian Radar - The Daily Beast


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## jarves

ViXuyen said:


> Stealth is mostly by shaping. does that thing look anywhere close to the F-22, F-35? India is getting conned out of tens of billions of dollars.


Nobody can predict the RCS or stealthiness of the aircraft just by looking at the pic.So please dont post comments like this.
Secondly America is on whole together different level so naturally it was understood that PAKFA will not be able to match F22 raptor in stealh or RCS.
And would be kind enough to clarify that "India getting conned part"??

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## he-man

no need to go all ballistic here people.
shaping shows it quite clearly that pakfa will be highly vulnerable to the ground radars and untill the shape of inlet changes, it will remain like that only.

on the tech level i know what a 5 th generation means and what we are getting in the pakfa,,,i am deliberating only on the shaping



ptldM3 said:


> Thank you, amazing how you can judge how an aircraft performs by looking at a picture. The picture was obviously meant to show how different the pak-fa is compared the the Flanker.



tell me more about the differences!!

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## sancho

he-man said:


> a photo speaks a thousand words
> 
> this has been taken from paralay.com forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no matter how we try to justify but russians just screwed up in designing this bird,period



Only when you only see what you want to see and not what the picture really shows! 

- non shaped nose and airframe for the old Flanker => stealthy shaped nose and airframe for the T50
- old wing design of the Flanker => modern wing design for the T50 with stealthy shaped angles
- increased reflecting of radar waves via canards, vertical fins above and below the Flanker, the air intakes, as well as several right angles => movable LERX, angled tail fins, deleted vertical fins, deleted right angles and shaped air intakes for the T50
- external weapon carriage for Flankers => internal weapon carriage for T50
- mainly active sensors for the Flanker => active and passive sensors all around the T50 (less detectable)
- limited Supercruise performance for the Flankers => high Supercruise performance for the T50 (less detectable)

Bottom line is, the Russians developed a fighter with stealth shapings and reduced detectability against radar and various sensors and that even in the current prototype / early Pak Fa stage!
The problem is only, that people only see the seperated engines and the tail sting as the design feature and the uncovered/untreated engines, to conclude that it's "just" a Flanker or not stealthy. The fact however is, that the Russians used the same lift body design for the Mig 29s as well, so simply followed their way of fighter designs and took it to the next level, but changed anything else of the design! 
Just like we know that the current engine are only stop gaps till the type 30 is developed and that they are the ONLY part of the T50 that is not shaped in angled ways, which should make clear that it's not the permanent solution. But as said, people only see what they want to see!

Btw, the pic is out of proportion, the T50 is roughly 2m shorter than the Flanker and has less wingspan either.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Only when you only see what you want to see and not what the picture really shows!
> 
> - non shaped nose and airframe for the old Flanker => stealthy shaped nose and airframe for the T50
> - old wing design of the Flanker => modern wing design for the T50 with stealthy shaped angles
> - increased reflecting of radar waves via canards, vertical fins above and below the Flanker, the air intakes, as well as several right angles => movable LERX, angled tail fins, deleted vertical fins, deleted right angles and shaped air intakes for the T50
> - external weapon carriage for Flankers => internal weapon carriage for T50
> - mainly active sensors for the Flanker => active and passive sensors all around the T50 (less detectable)
> - limited Supercruise performance for the Flankers => high Supercruise performance for the T50 (less detectable)
> 
> Bottom line is, the Russians developed a fighter with stealth shapings and reduced detectability against radar and various sensors and that even in the current prototype / early Pak Fa stage!
> The problem is only, that people only see the seperated engines and the tail sting as the design feature and the uncovered/untreated engines, to conclude that it's "just" a Flanker or not stealthy. The fact however is, that the Russians used the same lift body design for the Mig 29s as well, so simply followed their way of fighter designs and took it to the next level, but changed anything else of the design!
> Just like we know that the current engine are only stop gaps till the type 30 is developed and that they are the ONLY part of the T50 that is not shaped in angled ways, which should make clear that it's not the permanent solution. But as said, people only see what they want to see!
> 
> Btw, the pic is out of proportion, the T50 is roughly 2m shorter than the Flanker and has less wingspan either.



again u are misquoting me.
my argument was that with this shape its just too vulnerable against the ground radars.

and yeah it has some modifications but those are just.................well modifications.
they could have done a better job at designing if money was not the problem which unfortunately was.

as for the shape,,,its 100 % final,,if u don't want to believe it then its ur wish


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## sancho

he-man said:


> again u are misquoting me.
> my argument was that with this shape its just too vulnerable against the ground radars.



I didn't and showed you instead that they purposly changed nearly everything wrt to the shape / design to reduce the RCS, or detectability compared to the older Flanker design!

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## atlssa

he-man said:


> my argument was that with this shape its just too vulnerable against the ground radars




Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy | Russia & India Report


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## he-man

@atlssa

browse back some pages,i think i was the one who posted this patent here,,,,along with the basic flight architecture patent too.

the problem here is the poorly shaped underbelly making pakfa extremely vulnerable to the ground based radars and sam radars.and whether u believe that or not but it will remain the truth untill the shape changes which will never occur,unfortunately.

pakfa has a lot of unique features but stealth is not one of its strong points,thats the truth buddy



sancho said:


> I didn't and showed you instead that they purposly changed nearly everything wrt to the shape / design to reduce the RCS, or detectability compared to the older Flanker design!



the crux was little change in the underbelly


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## atlssa

he-man said:


> pakfa has a lot of unique features but stealth is not one of its strong points,thats the truth buddy



Every single design has its weak points. See the controversial F-35, for example. 
From my point of view, a jet fighter has to be effective. Low RCS is just one among many features. An important one, btw. 
I really believe PAK-FA will be a great fighter, not stealth as the F-22, but still effective. Besides... The F-22 is a half billion dollars fighter (each).

In the case the Russians developed a fighter as good as the F-22 and costing about the same, India would be willing to pay this price?


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## he-man

atlssa said:


> Every single design has its weak points. See the controversial F-35, for example.
> From my point of view, a jet fighter has to be effective. Low RCS is just one among many features. An important one, btw.
> I really believe PAK-FA will be a great fighter, not stealth as the F-22, but still effective. Besides... The F-22 is a half billion dollars fighter (each).
> 
> In the case the Russians developed a fighter as good as the F-22 and costing about the same, India would be willing to pay this price?



the point is design here.
russians let go of s-ducts to make more space and reduce weight.even superior kinematic performance.

but i think s-ducts were better,,it would have solved both rcs problem and the uneven underbelly issues both


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## atlssa

he-man said:


> the point is design here.
> russians let go of s-ducts to make more space and reduce weight.even superior kinematic performance.
> 
> but i think s-ducts were better,,it would have solved both rcs problem and the uneven underbelly issues both


got you!

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> I didn't and showed you instead that they purposly changed nearly everything wrt to the shape / design to reduce the RCS, or detectability compared to the older Flanker design!


An old saying " Choose your battles "


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## he-man

Sergi said:


> An old saying " Choose your battles "


once again to clarify,,,,the point was underbelly of pakfa which dosen't differs much from a flanker.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> the point was underbelly of pakfa which dosen't differs much from a flanker.



Again, people see what they want to see, but I see...

- not shaped air intake for the Flanker => shaped air intake for the T50
- straigth inlet and engine position for the Flanker => curved inlet, forward and inward angled position for the T50
- gears folding into the wings for the Flanker => gears folding into the intake for the T50
- 2 external centerline stations for the Flanker => 2 internal weapon bays for the T50
- much larger tail sting of the T50, with more space for radar, EW sensors, brake parachute and the newly positioned flares

There are infact only 2 things that are similar, one the already mentioned commonality of Russian fighter design and secondly the engine coverings, that are not shaped or treaded like the AL 31 and 117S engines of the Su 30 / Su 35.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Again, people see what they want to see, but I see...
> 
> - not shaped air intake for the Flanker => shaped air intake for the T50
> - straigth inlet and engine position for the Flanker => curved inlet, forward and inward angled position for the T50
> - gears folding into the wings for the Flanker => gears folding into the intake for the T50
> - 2 external centerline stations for the Flanker => 2 internal weapon bays for the T50
> - much larger tail sting of the T50, with more space for radar, EW sensors, brake parachute and the newly positioned flares
> 
> There are infact only 2 things that are similar, one the already mentioned commonality of Russian fighter design and secondly the engine coverings, that are not shaped or treaded like the AL 31 and 117S engines of the Su 30 / Su 35.



how does any of these points protect pakfa against the ground radar vs a flanker??
answer----little

the points u mentioned will reduce the frontal rcs and will have a small effect at most on the below aspect rcs.

here let me help u












what russians did was to use the huge space between the 2 engines of a flanker as a weapons bay............a cheap solution.
and for that there will be consequences,,,huge consequences.

s-ducts would have eliminated this.


----------



## sancho

he-man said:


> how does any of these points protect pakfa against the ground radar vs a flanker??



LOL, first you claim that there are no changes and when I prove that wrong you distract? And no, an angled shaped air intake won't have any effect on radar waves. Strange that all stealth fighters have similar shaped air intakes. Just like the curves (partially because of the gears folding into the inlet) in the inlet and the angled position of the engine hides parts of the compressor already, even without a duct or radar blockers installed. And no, internal weapon bays won't improve the RCS either...



he-man said:


> what russians did was to use the huge space between the 2 engines of a flanker as a weapons bay



Wrong! They created internal weapon bays "in" the fuselage above the air intakes and engines and not just between them. So they created new space and not just used the space that was available there anyway, but you didn't even saw that, no wonder that you can't see the other differences.


----------



## atlssa

sancho said:


> LOL, first you claim that there are no changes and when I prove that wrong you distract? And no, an angled shaped air intake won't have any effect on radar waves. Strange that all stealth fighters have similar shaped air intakes. Just like the curves (partially because of the gears folding into the inlet) in the inlet and the angled position of the engine hides parts of the compressor already, even without a duct or radar blockers installed. And no, internal weapon bays won't improve the RCS either...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong! They created internal weapon bays "in" the fuselage above the air intakes and engines and not just between them. So they created new space and not just used the space that was available there anyway, but you didn't even saw that, no wonder that you can't see the other differences.





I totally agree with your point of view. As I said before, each single project has its own particularities. I just don't believe everybody who develops a fifth-generation fighter has to follow absolutely the same steps as the F-22. Of course, the Americans are showing the way, but even that didn't prevent the F-35 to be susceptible to detection by radars operating in the VHF bands of the spectrum.

The way I see people criticizing the T-50, it seems that they would like to have a F-22. Would also they be willing to pay the price? Even the Americans couldn’t keep up with it and the project was canceled.

It is matter of cost benefit. PAK-FA / FGFA should be seen as the Indo-Russian approach for this technology. Not even that, with exception of USA no one yet uses fifth-generation fighters, and when happens, it will be the American allies with the F-35 (which has lots of problems) and China with its J-20 (which still has a lot to answer).

So, if the T-50 is not as stealth as the F-22, what is problem? Is India going to war against USA any time soon?

Please... Come on guys!!!
T-50 is a great fighter. An effective solution with a fraction of F-22 price.You need to celebrate!

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## sancho

atlssa said:


> I totally agree with your point of view. As I said before, each single project has its own particularities. I just don't believe everybody who develops a fifth-generation fighter has to follow absolutely the same steps as the F-22. Of course, the Americans are showing the way, but even that didn't prevent the F-35 to be susceptible to detection by radars operating in the VHF bands of the spectrum.



That's the problem, people conclude too much based on looks and biased opinion. T50 generally will be claimed to be less stealthy, because of the belly, ignoring the fact that not even the F35 has a flat belly. They are critizing the (possible) missile bays at the wings, althought they are stealthy shaped as well, but not integrated into the fuselage like in the F22. But where is the critizism for the F35, that has no missile bays for SR misssiles at all, or that the B version has to carry an external gun pod with some shaping (is that a stealthier solution than the missile bay of the T50?), or that it also has refuelling systems or gun housing at the other versions, that are not integrated into the airframe but attached in shaped housings on top of the airframe too?

At the same time they also ignore the clear advances that the Russians came up with. They didn't "just" went for low RCS with stealth design, but also fielded the most advanced and capable fighter detection system that currently is available. There might be several stealth fighters in development, but afaik not a single other fighter that offers such capabilities in long range detection and wide field of view for the radar, besides the passive sensors that it fields all around the airframe. Even if we say the F22 is stealthier, it clearly falls short to detecting another stealth fighter, the way the T50 can!
It's long range radar is only aimed to the front, in a limited field of view and it's advanced EW sensors might be an advantage against current 4th gen fighters and their radars, but not against modern fighters with AESAs. If the F22 does not engage head on, it will find it more than difficult to gain the first sight advantage even against the current T50 prototypes.
There is hardly a 5th gen fighter that offers really so many NG capabilities or innovations at once and there are still many things to come, when the final Pak Fa / FGFA versions will arrive!

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## danish_vij

@he-man what do u think IAF and other important officials who know how to protect our country are fools ??? and u know everything?? cmmon man give it a break........dont talk shit if u dont have enough knowledge...unless u are an aeronautical engineer from an IIT or something 
yea sometimes self criticism is cool but not every time u cant blabber about anything without iota of knowledge about it......
please look in points given up by @sancho @atlssa after removing cool self criticism

just show me any degree that u are qualified enough to understand the stealth technology or airframe.and i will all agree with u.....dont tell me u are just only internet warrior.....

and if u say it is not as advanced as f22 or f35 or whatever u think......but u should also know it is not as costly as f22 or f35
i guess we can buy 5t50's at the cost of 3 f22 or f35

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## atlssa

sancho said:


> There is hardly a 5th gen fighter that offers really so many NG capabilities or innovations at once and there are still many things to come, when the final Pak Fa / FGFA versions will arrive!



Agreed!
To make a long story short: Stealthiness is not just about shaping! To design a low RCS airframe is kind of easy, however if you don't have the proper avionics for packing, it will be useless, or at most a 4G fighter with just a similar look of a 5G one. 

The Russians are being very responsible within this matter. The most important fact for this kind of fighter is to be able to provide air superiority and air dominance. I don't have any doubts that T-50 will easily do so!


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## atlssa

danish_vij said:


> and if u say it is not as advanced as f22 or f35 or whatever u think......but u should also know it is not as costly as f22 or f35
> 
> i guess we can buy 3 t50's at the same price as f35



Well, I don't believe it will be possible to buy 3 T-50 for the price of just one F-35 since its price shall go down a little bit in the next 2 years, but still T-50 will be affordable and very competitive.

Most of people who criticize the T-50 forget about how stealth technology began. Stealthiness is about low detectability, and to fully understand it we must look into the past.

SR-71 Blackbird was so fast it outran every missile and fighter jet encountered over enemy territory. In fact, neither enemy fighters nor enemy surface to air missiles were ever able to shoot down or to damage a SR-71. But the aircraft was never shot down also because it was hardly detected by enemy radars, being the first aircraft featuring stealth technology. Indeed, for the first time a special paint was used for Blackbird’s wings, tail and fuselage: since it contained iron ferrite, this paint absorbed radar energy instead of returning it to the sender.
If the only thing that matters was shaping, the SR-71 airframe could never be considered stealth. With an RCS of a small light aircraft, when the SR-71 was found on radar it was too late for a SAM computer to estimate its direction for a successful kill.
So, at that time, the SR-71 stealthiness was effective only because the Russians/Soviets didn’t have the proper technology to deal with him. Today, with the available technology, it would as detectable as an F-16!

In the 80s, the Americans came up with the USAF's Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) competition. Lockheed and Northrop were selected in 1986 to develop the YF-22 and the YF-23 demonstrator aircraft. Following a review of the flight test results and proposals, the USAF announced the Lockheed YF-22 as the competition winner on 23 April 1991.The YF-23 design was stealthier and faster, but the YF-22 was more agile. So, maneuverability is also important!
If you look at YF-23 airframe, more specific its underbelly, there are many differences in comparison with the F-22, still the YF-23 was considered the stealthier one.

In the 90s, with the JSF, the X-32 and X-35 were two totally different approaches for the program requisition, nevertheless both airplanes were stealthy.

As I said before, stealthiness is about low detectability. At the time of SR-71, the Russians didn’t have the proper technology to detect the plane within time enough to deploy the countermeasures. Nowadays, talking about the F-35, which is the world’s most expensive weapons program, the Russians already have in place the technology to detect, counter attack and shot down the aircraft. From this point of view we can say the SR-71 was more effective than the F-35. It all depends on the context you're looking to! 

PAK-FA/FGFA is being developed considering all these aspects. It’s not about which aircraft has the sleekest underbelly, as our colleague @he-man suggested. It has to be effective, affordable, and able to provide air superiority and air dominance, and most of all, it has to match VVS and IAF requirements, which are the primary customers. Plain and simple! The rest is just BS of people who doesn't really know what they are talking about.

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## he-man

fair enough


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## gambit

There is a lot of baseless declarations about low radar observability in principles and about the Indian version of the PAK in particular, so am going to clear up some misconceptions...







In radar detection, the sphere is consider the ideal body because under radar bombardment, it radiate in a consistent manner. The sphere, of various diameters, is used to calibrate radar systems. With the sphere, we have specular reflection, and depending on the diameter's relationship with the operating frequency, the creeping wave behavior, which is a contributor to the sphere's RCS, may or may not appear.

This relationship is called the 'ten lambda' rule. Lambda is the Greek letter representing frequency or wavelength. If the diameter is greater than 10 times the wavelength (>10), the then creeping wave behavior will not occur. If the diameter is less than 10 times the wavelength (<10), then the creeping wave behavior will occur. So if we are going to calibrate an X-band radar, we should use a sphere whose diameter is >10 frequency in order to get only the specular reflection so we would know as precise as possible the amount of return.

Therefore, the sphere have at most two radiation methods: specular and surface waves.

Going to more complex bodies such as the cube...






The cube have the plate, or more like 6 plates. That is specular reflection. If we tilt a plate, as the angle of tilt increases surface waves behaviors will occur. But when the surface waves reaches a joint between plates, we have a surface discontinuity, the edge, which will give us the radiation mode of diffraction.

So for the left cube, we will have three radiation modes: specular, surface waves, and edge diffraction.

If we introduce curvatures into the cube, like in the right cube, we will still have the same three modes of radiation as the right cube, but less intense for edge diffraction and higher quantity of surface waves.

That means if we rotate both cubes, most likely the left cube will have a higher RCS and pulsating signature than the right cube. With curvatures, we can have better control of how radar signals will leave this finite body than with sharp edges.

So from these three bodies, we, meaning the US, have formulated the basic rules for designing/shaping complex bodies with RCS control in mind.

Control...
- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

The sphere have only its surface for quantity of radiators. The basic cube have two: the plate and edge. The pyramid also have two: the plate and edge. Remember, these are finite bodies, radar signals must leave a body somehow and some time.

On a complex body like an aircraft, major structures like flight control devices are radiators -- the plates. Because they are joined to the fuselage and are in close proximity to each other, this fall under the rule of 'control of array of radiators'. The B-2 have no vertical stabilators. This does not mean the B-2 ignored this rule. On the contrary, the B-2 obeyed this rule perfectly. The rule only say 'control' and part of control is not using a device if there is no need for that device.

When the F-117, F-22, F-35, PAK-FA, and the J-20 canted their vertical stabilators, they also obeyed the rule of 'control of array of radiators'. They canted their vertical stabilators to avoid the dreaded 90-deg corner reflector, which is a major no-no if we want to control final RCS.

The rules for the corner reflectors are:

- Avoid this structure completely.
- If not possible, then avoid the 90-deg type.

The B-2's design obeyed the first rule of the corner reflector structure. The designs for the supposedly 'stealthy' fighters obeyed the second rule of the corner reflector structure.

And both rules for the corner reflector structure falls under the higher rule of 'control of arrays of radiators'.

Once we go beyond this basic understanding, the discussion will involve higher order math and classified data because supercomputers are needed in order to make the complex body of an aircraft as obedient to the top three rules as much as possible.

For something like this...






The only solution is enclosure. A streamline pod that prevents any radar from impacting those structures still obeys those three top rules of RCS control.

So what are we to make of the situation when we have three supposedly 'stealth' fighters that based upon visual inspection, seemingly obey the rules of RCS control to high degree ?






At this point, we have to inspect their bodies at finer granularity. Everything from the degree of curvatures anywhere to panel gaps to fastener heads.

The reason is this...






The above is how any radar system 'sees' an aircraft: as a cluster of voltage spikes created by structures, major and minor, on the aircraft. For the example above, the highest spike came from the tail section, obviously. We can also see a cluster created by the three engines.

One alleged 'stealth' fighter may have its shaping in some ways kept it above the threshold. The J-20 have two ventral fins (control of quantity of radiators) that do not exists on the F-22 and the PAK. Would those structures raise the J-20 above the clutter rejection threshold when they are in the radar stream ? Possibly. We can argue that in the absence of hard data, the J-20 may very well be as 'stealthy' as the F-22, but the first rule of RCS control -- control of *QUANTITY* of radiators -- suggests otherwise. The J-20 did not 'violate' this rule. It just did not obey the rule to the same degree as the F-22 does.

The same rules applies to the engine exhausts on all three aircrafts. It is very rare that any radar would have a direct view of the engine exhaust. From this perspective, even the F-22 will be detected. But precisely because it is so rare a situation, the F-22's engine exhausts are designed to be more recessed and better shaped than its competitors so that in the oblique angles, the engine exhausts are less detectable than those on its competitors.

Remember, the rules are:

Control...
- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

We do not 'violate' any rule. We just have varying degrees of *OBEDIENCE* to them.

This means the sphere is the near perfect 'stealth' body. This also means that based upon informed opinion, despite the absence of hard data, the J-20 may have a slight edge in terms of better *OBEDIENCE* to the RCS control rules than the PAK.

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## gambit

As an addendum to post 1941...

U-2 plane fooled new computer system, halting flights in California - CNN.com


> A very old spy plane and a very new computer system played pivotal roles in last week's computer glitch that temporarily paralyzed flight operations in southern California, officials tell CNN.
> 
> The problem involved a U-2 aircraft, the type famed for conducting reconnaissance missions over the Soviet Union during the Cold War.
> 
> A Federal Aviation Administration computer system interpreted the U-2's flight path at a very high altitude as if it were flying in a much lower and more crowded airspace.
> 
> *The computer -- which anticipates the flight path and looks for possible conflicts such as other aircraft or restricted airspace -- was overtaxed by the many flight changes the U-2 had plotted, officials said.*
> 
> That work used much of the computer's memory and interrupted its other flight-processing functions, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said in a statement.
> 
> The agency said it has added computer memory to prevent a recurrence, while others said officials are racing to install a more permanent computer patch.


While this may seems unrelated to 'stealth' discussions, it is more subtly relevant than most realize.

For this incident, the FAA's computer that processes air traffic radar data did not have sufficient resources, hardware and software, to accurately process the variable call 'U-2'. This aircraft flew high and had so many waypoints that this variable confused the entire data processing capability.

This is what 'stealth' does: confuse the seeking radar as to what it is 'seeing'.

The intent of 'stealth' is to submerge the aircraft into the clutter region where the seeking radar either rejects the entire region, which would discard the 'stealth' aircraft in the first place, or attempts to process every single signal inside that region and if there are known clutter signals such as cloud or flora or terrain, the radar will be confused, just like how the FAA air traffic radar computer failed to accurately process the U-2's flight.

Have no doubt that the 'stealth' aircraft will be detected. But it will be processed as if it is a legitimate clutter signal among the millions of other low level signals that make up the clutter region.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> That's the problem, people conclude too much based on looks and biased opinion. T50 generally will be claimed to be less stealthy, because of the belly, ignoring the fact that not even the F35 has a flat belly. They are critizing the (possible) missile bays at the wings, althought they are stealthy shaped as well, but not integrated into the fuselage like in the F22. But where is the critizism for the F35, that has no missile bays for SR misssiles at all, or that the B version has to carry an external gun pod with some shaping (is that a stealthier solution than the missile bay of the T50?), or that it also has refuelling systems or gun housing at the other versions, that are not integrated into the airframe but attached in shaped housings on top of the airframe too?
> 
> At the same time they also ignore the clear advances that the Russians came up with. They didn't "just" went for low RCS with stealth design, but also fielded the most advanced and capable fighter detection system that currently is available. There might be several stealth fighters in development, but afaik not a single other fighter that offers such capabilities in long range detection and wide field of view for the radar, besides the passive sensors that it fields all around the airframe. Even if we say the F22 is stealthier, it clearly falls short to detecting another stealth fighter, the way the T50 can!
> It's long range radar is only aimed to the front, in a limited field of view and it's advanced EW sensors might be an advantage against current 4th gen fighters and their radars, but not against modern fighters with AESAs. If the F22 does not engage head on, it will find it more than difficult to gain the first sight advantage even against the current T50 prototypes.
> There is hardly a 5th gen fighter that offers really so many NG capabilities or innovations at once and there are still many things to come, when the final Pak Fa / FGFA versions will arrive!



even with a head on engagement f-22 will find it hard to detect pakfa first simply because pakfa will have a better radar than old apg-77 which has been too much glorified.The current benchmark for radar tech will be apg-81,i can bet my money on it.

as for ur points on ew systems and radars go,,,its true that no other aircraft can match the amount of sensors that are going into pakfa,,,i mean it will have at least 270 degrees of aesa coverage even without a rear radar and well 360 with a rear aesa which will be there for indian fgfa most probably.
4 th gen or even 4.5 gen stuff stand no chance whatsoever against pakfa,,,its just too damn full of sensors and if the reports of idz 30 engine generating 180 kn in wet mode are true then well the plane will be virtually unbeatable in air-air mode.

Not to say that f-35 is less advanced,,,on the contrary apg-81 should be better than n036 based on the americn experience in the aesas,its their 4 th gen aesa after apg-77,79,80 etc so yeah they have shit load of experience.But in terms of power and detection range just due to its sheer size n036 will have huge,,,i mean>400 km detection range.Even irbis e has claimed a detection range of 400 km against 3 m2 target and 90 km for .01 m2 so yeah all the things point to a kickass radar in the form of n036.

As far ar irst goes,,lets hope russians catch up as in this world of stealth irst has suddenly become very very important to detect another stealth plane but no data is available still.
So all in all pakfa will be an awesome bird vs anything in the air,,there is no doubt about it but it will not be that good against the ground radars with that underbelly.That was the whole point of discussion,u conveniently ducked it for a more holistic approach


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## gambit

he-man said:


> even with a head on engagement f-22 will find it hard to detect pakfa first simply because pakfa will have a better radar than old apg-77 which has been too much glorified.The current benchmark for radar tech will be apg-81,i can bet my money on it.
> 
> as for ur points on ew systems and radars go,,,its true that no other aircraft can match the amount of sensors that are going into pakfa,,,i mean it will have at least 270 degrees of aesa coverage even without a rear radar and well 360 with a rear aesa which will be there for indian fgfa most probably.
> 4 th gen or even 4.5 gen stuff stand no chance whatsoever against pakfa,,,its just too damn full of sensors and if the reports of idz 30 engine generating 180 kn in wet mode are true then well the plane will be virtually unbeatable in air-air mode.
> 
> Not to say that f-35 is less advanced,,,on the contrary apg-81 should be better than n036 based on the americn experience in the aesas,its their 4 th gen aesa after apg-77,79,80 etc so yeah they have shit load of experience.But in terms of power and detection range just due to its sheer size n036 will have huge,,,i mean>400 km detection range.Even irbis e has claimed a detection range of 400 km against 3 m2 target and 90 km for .01 m2 so yeah all the things point to a kickass radar in the form of n036.
> 
> As far ar irst goes,,lets hope russians catch up as in this world of stealth irst has suddenly become very very important to detect another stealth plane but no data is available still.
> So all in all pakfa will be an awesome bird vs anything in the air,,there is no doubt about it but it will not be that good against the ground radars with that underbelly.That was the whole point of discussion,u conveniently ducked it for a more holistic approach


The F-22 have been called an 'antenna farm' for good reason...






It can fight completely silent.


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## danish_vij

atlssa said:


> Well, I don't believe it will be possible to buy 3 T-50 for the price of just one F-35 since its price shall go down a little bit in the next 2 years, but still T-50 will be affordable and very competitive.


thanx for info.....just checked wiki now
edited it was a guess.......

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## he-man

gambit said:


> The F-22 have been called an 'antenna farm' for good reason...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It can fight completely silent.



untill its thoroughly modernized,,it cannot compete even with f-35.

if its modernized its unbeatable for sure,everyone knows it


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## atlssa

he-man said:


> So all in all pakfa will be an awesome bird vs anything in the air,,there is no doubt about it but it will not be that good against the ground radars with that underbelly.That was the whole point of discussion,u conveniently ducked it for a more holistic approach



What you missing here the fact that no fighter, despite of its underbelly, will still be undetectable anymore, not even the F-22.
In fact, depending on range, any radar can eventually "see" a stealth aircraft when they get close enough. It’s not about a beauty context, it’s about effectiveness.

Long wave is no good for fire control. Fire control radar is actually what paints the target and guides a missile.
15 years ago a dead broke former soviet satellite state (Yugoslavia) brought down an F-117 "stealth" with a Cuban missile crisis era SAM. The F-177 had the sleekest underbelly at all.

Stealth is not magic. It can be defeated!

The main difference is all the electronic counter-measures in the new jets. They can jam surface to air missiles, jam the ground radar, they can emit huge EMP, disable their electronics. To stay undetected, the effective stealth fighter must have very long range radar systems that can detect enemy radar long before they are seen, and jam it, or take it out with long range missiles. Without it, every single stealth fighter is useless.

Despite of its shaping, it must have the proper packing (avionics) to be effective in the skies, or it will be only good as a wallpaper on someone computer’s desktop.

You've made up your mind about the T-50 underbelly, which of course its important, but not as crucial as you said, if you consider all the other features the airplane must have. It's obvious the Russians didn't sacrifice that for nothing. I will repeat one more time, it's about effectiveness, and to achieve that there are many other details that must be observed.


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## he-man

atlssa said:


> What you missing here the fact that no fighter, despite of its underbelly, will still be undetectable anymore, not even the F-22.
> In fact, depending on range, any radar can eventually "see" a stealth aircraft when they get close enough. It’s not about a beauty context, it’s about effectiveness.
> 
> Long wave is no good for fire control. Fire control radar is actually what paints the target and guides a missile.
> 15 years ago a dead broke former soviet satellite state (Yugoslavia) brought down an F-117 "stealth" with a Cuban missile crisis era SAM. The F-177 had the sleekest underbelly at all.
> 
> Stealth is not magic. It can be defeated!
> 
> The main difference is all the electronic counter-measures in the new jets. They can jam surface to air missiles, jam the ground radar, they can emit huge EMP, disable their electronics. To stay undetected, the effective stealth fighter must have very long range radar systems that can detect enemy radar long before they are seen, and jam it, or take it out with long range missiles. Without it, every single stealth fighter is useless.
> 
> Despite of its shaping, it must have the proper packing (avionics) to be effective in the skies, or it will be only good as a wallpaper on someone computer’s desktop.
> 
> You've made up your mind about the T-50 underbelly, which of course its important, but not as crucial as you said, if you consider all the other features the airplane must have. It's obvious the Russians didn't sacrifice that for nothing. I will repeat one more time, it's about effectiveness, and to achieve that there are many other details that must be observed.



dude i know all this these things,,,u are taking me for a novice which i am not.

the point of comparison is word relative.

and the way i see it,,,pakfa is relatively more vulnerable to ground based radars than sau f-22,f-35 and j-20.

and for the other features i have written on that in my above post,,,pakfa will be near impossible for anything to defeat in air except a modernized f-22 for obvious reasons but it has its share of flaws,,,every bird has one


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## atlssa

he-man said:


> u are taking me for a novice which i am not



I never said you're a novice. So please calm down!

As I said before, ground base radars already are effective against stealth aircraft, all of them. In the case T-50 would have an underbelly as sleek as the F-22, it would still be detected, unless it is well equipped. It is the same with all the other 5G fighters, including the F-22 itself.

The only way I agree with you is if we compare just the airframes, with no avionics whatsoever. In this case, and only this, the F-22 shape is more effective than T-50. Since the aircraft has many other features that can’t be ignored, there is no point to steak with this detail.

But I got you... you have the right of disliking the way it looks like.

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## sancho

he-man said:


> That was the whole point of discussion,u conveniently ducked it for a more holistic approach



Lol, explaining to you the features the Russians used at the belly to reduce the RCS is ducking? You don't have even any point here, other than that you don't like the belly design, but your preference doesn't mean that there is an issue wrt RCS or ground radars. But that's just another conclusion you ran into, just based on looks and your theories. One of the few that we have seen from you in the last few weeks on many topics isn't it?


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Lol, explaining to you the features the Russians used at the belly to reduce the RCS is ducking? You don't have even any point here, other than that you don't like the belly design, but your preference doesn't mean that there is an issue wrt RCS or ground radars. But that's just another conclusion you ran into, just based on looks and your theories. One of the few that we have seen from you in the last few weeks on many topics isn't it?



truth hurts dude,,,,try any argument but deep down we all know the truth and compromise we had to do with pakfa.

Forgive me for not being a goody-goody poster here,,,thats not my nature to paint everything rosy


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## gambit

atlssa said:


> 15 years ago a dead broke former soviet satellite state (Yugoslavia) brought down an F-117 "stealth" with a Cuban missile crisis era SAM. The F-177 had the sleekest underbelly at all.


Can you explain why only one F-117 was lost ?

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## he-man

gambit said:


> Can you explain why only one F-117 was lost ?


very valid point


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## sancho

he-man said:


> truth hurts dude,,,,try any argument but deep down we all know the truth and compromise we had to do with pakfa.
> 
> Forgive me for not being a goody-goody poster here,,,thats not my nature to paint everything rosy



I am know here for being pessimistic and even accused for being anti Indian developments too, so that is not the issue, but that you get to fast into conclusions, that turn out to be very simplistic and wrong at the end. Try to understand things first and see them from different angles, before you say it's like this or like that!
Btw, we don't made any compromises yet, since what you see and what you judge here is only the T50 prototype of the early Russian Pak Fa version. We know that our version will have differences, even if the most visible one might only be the engine coverings or TCNs, so here again, wait and see.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> I am know here for being pessimistic and even accused for being anti Indian developments too, so that is not the issue, but that you get to fast into conclusions, that turn out to be very simplistic and wrong at the end. Try to understand things first and see them from different angles, before you say it's like this or like that!
> Btw, we don't made any compromises yet, since what you see and what you judge here is only the T50 prototype of the early Russian Pak Fa version. We know that our version will have differences, even if the most visible one might only be the engine coverings or TCNs, so here again, wait and see.



i do hope u are right from the bottom of my heart but any structural change looks difficult

As far as opinions go,,mine haven't been wrong thanks to hal/drdo inefficiency.
But yeah i take ur point


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## atlssa

gambit said:


> Can you explain why only one F-117 was lost ?





he-man said:


> very valid point



Using spies and observers, Serbians found the US planners were so cocky that they put the F-117s on repetitive routings, flying the same inbound/outbound routes every night. They went alone. There was no SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) and no jamming.

The Serbians used SA-3's to flood a portion of the sky they though the F-117 would be in on the return flight and got a hit. Skilled operators using totally outdated technology. The F-117 went only 13 kilometers away.

Stealth jet aircraft are vulnerable to IR detection just like any other jet – although measures are taken to REDUCE the IR signature, it cannot be made to zero. They all kick out lots of hot air and IR missiles are harder to detect approaching because they are passive – and the F-117 uses passive defensive aids (for obvious reasons) so it relies on ‘seeing’ the missile approaching.


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## gambit

atlssa said:


> Using spies and observers, Serbians found the US planners were so cocky that they put the F-117s on repetitive routings, flying the same inbound/outbound routes every night. They went alone. There was no SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) and no jamming.
> 
> The Serbians used SA-3's to flood a portion of the sky they though the F-117 would be in on the return flight and got a hit. Skilled operators using totally outdated technology. The F-117 went only 13 kilometers away.


Good. Now you know how much work was involved to take out the F-117, which have no radar and no self defense weapons.

Do you really think that the US is going to make the same mistake of putting our F-22s under the control of another body, even an alliance body like NATO ?



atlssa said:


> Stealth jet aircraft are vulnerable to IR detection just like any other jet – although measures are taken to REDUCE the IR signature, it cannot be made to zero. They all kick out lots of hot air and IR missiles are harder to detect approaching because they are passive – and the F-117 uses passive defensive aids (for obvious reasons) so it relies on ‘seeing’ the missile approaching.


It is easy to simply say the obvious -- that A, B, and C fighters are vulnerable to IR detection.

Of course any aircraft, even prop jobbers, are vulnerable to IR detection. The question are to what degree, how capable are seekers, and how to position IR missiles in the most advantageous position -- directly in the rear. If it is as easy as you declared, IR missiles would have pushed all aircrafts out of the sky decades ago. Instead, we have IR seekers that can be seduced by the sun, glint, flares, or even water reflections.


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## atlssa

gambit said:


> Good. Now you know how much work was involved to take out the F-117, which have no radar and no self defense weapons.
> 
> Do you really think that the US is going to make the same mistake of putting our F-22s under the control of another body, even an alliance body like NATO ?
> 
> It is easy to simply say the obvious -- that A, B, and C fighters are vulnerable to IR detection.
> 
> Of course any aircraft, even prop jobbers, are vulnerable to IR detection. The question are to what degree, how capable are seekers, and how to position IR missiles in the most advantageous position -- directly in the rear. If it is as easy as you declared, IR missiles would have pushed all aircrafts out of the sky decades ago. Instead, we have IR seekers that can be seduced by the sun, glint, flares, or even water reflections.



You asked me a question. I gave you an answer. Didn't try to prove anything, just gave you the facts. 
Regarding to the F-22, I never said the it was a bad fighter. Actually it is the best one, nevertheless it's subject to the same rules as any other aircraft. The F-22 is better because is has the proper packing. It's not about magic.

Also, I never said US was going to put the F-22 under control of NATO. Actually, it is not even possible to do it.
The F-22 was designed during the Cold War to be a solitary hunter, able to silently swap radar-based targeting data only with other F-22s using a special, hard-to-intercept radio datalink. Accordingly, the Raptor does not have the full Link 16 datalink installed on all other USAF and NATO fighters, support planes, warships and ground-based air defenses. Link 16 is what allows different air, sea and ground forces from the U.S. and its allies to securely swap information back and forth during wartime. To be clear, the F-22 can only receive Link 16 data. Again, the F-22 it is a solitary hunter, not a team player.

In order to use the F-22, a no-fly zone has to be established without any other airplanes in the area (USAF and NATO). The F-22 can be considered a solution for one or two potential scenarios, specifically the defeat of a highly advanced enemy fighter fleet and also would require it to be deployed in large numbers.


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## gambit

atlssa said:


> You asked me a question. I gave you an answer. Didn't try to prove anything, just gave you the facts.
> Regarding to the F-22, I never said the it was a bad fighter. Actually it is the best one, nevertheless it's subject to the same rules as any other aircraft. The F-22 is better because is has the proper packing. It's not about magic.
> 
> Also, I never said US was going to put the F-22 under control of NATO. Actually, it is not even possible to do it.
> The F-22 was designed during the Cold War to be a solitary hunter, able to silently swap radar-based targeting data only with other F-22s using a special, hard-to-intercept radio datalink. Accordingly, the Raptor does not have the full Link 16 datalink installed on all other USAF and NATO fighters, support planes, warships and ground-based air defenses. Link 16 is what allows different air, sea and ground forces from the U.S. and its allies to securely swap information back and forth during wartime. To be clear, the F-22 can only receive Link 16 data. Again, the F-22 it is a solitary hunter, not a team player.
> 
> In order to use the F-22, a no-fly zone has to be established without any other airplanes in the area (USAF and NATO). The F-22 can be considered a solution for one or two potential scenarios, specifically the defeat of a highly advanced enemy fighter fleet and also would require it to be deployed in large numbers.


What you have been trying to do was to downplay the tactical advantages that low radar observability have in any battlefield.

Please do not tell me what the F-22 can and cannot do. I know things about the F-22 that are not in the public domain, and you should know by now that I know more about radar detection than you do.

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## atlssa

gambit said:


> What you have been trying to do was to downplay the tactical advantages that low radar observability have in any battlefield.
> 
> Please do not tell me what the F-22 can and cannot do. I know things about the F-22 that are not in the public domain, and you should know by now that I know more about radar detection than you do.



First of all, I have no idea who you are nor what you do for living. I don't actually really care! 
I wasn't trying to downplay anything. It was actually the other way around. All the conversation is there. If you disagree, good for you!
I made my point, you made yours...
Cheers!


----------



## longlong

atlssa said:


> First of all, I have no idea who you are nor what you do for living. I don't actually really care!
> I wasn't trying to downplay anything. It was actually the other way around. All the conversation is there. If you disagree, good for you!
> I made my point, you made yours...
> Cheers!



Don't expect US or his son NATO will set up a no-fly zone over Ukraine by F-22.

F-22 is a legend.

Legend cannot be shot down. Otherwise, the legend will be discovered fake and whole system collapse.

You can you up, no can no BB ---- to F-22.

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## atlssa

longlong said:


> Don't expect US or his son NATO will set up a no-fly zone over Ukraine by F-22.
> 
> F-22 is a legend.
> 
> Legend cannot be shot down. Otherwise, the legend will be discovered fake and whole system collapse.
> 
> You can you up, no can no BB ---- to F-22.


I don't think they would use as well...


----------



## SR-91

gambit said:


> What you have been trying to do was to downplay the tactical advantages that low radar observability have in any battlefield.
> 
> Please do not tell me what the F-22 can and cannot do. I know things about the F-22 that are not in the public domain, and you should know by now that I know more about radar detection than you do.




Hey @gambit 

Can you shed some light on AURORA, black project?


----------



## gambit

longlong said:


> Don't expect US or his son NATO will set up a no-fly zone over Ukraine by F-22.
> 
> F-22 is a legend.
> 
> Legend cannot be shot down. Otherwise, the legend will be discovered fake and whole system collapse.
> 
> You can you up, no can no BB ---- to F-22.


A lot more real than the J-20 with its 'Chinese physics'.


----------



## janon

SR-91 said:


> Hey @gambit
> 
> Can you shed some light on AURORA, black project?


If it's a black project, then by definition noobody will shed any light about it!


----------



## gambit

SR-91 said:


> Hey @gambit
> 
> Can you shed some light on AURORA, black project?


All the technical stuff I posted on this forum are in the public domain. All I did was format those information based upon my personal experience and knowledge to clarify misconceptions at the principles level. Any specifics I know of any US military programs that are still secret, I will never talk about them.

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## SR-91

fair enough...


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## godofwar




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## longlong

gambit said:


> A lot more real than the J-20 with its 'Chinese physics'.



Thanks to only-for-none-Chinese physics, F-22 deserves the legend forever, yeh!!!


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## Agent_47




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## he-man

Agent_47 said:


>


years old cgi


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

atlssa said:


> ...
> SR-71 Blackbird was so fast it outran every missile and fighter jet encountered over enemy territory. In fact, neither enemy fighters nor enemy surface to air missiles were ever able to shoot down or to damage a SR-71. But the aircraft was never shot down also because it was hardly detected by enemy radars, being the first aircraft featuring stealth technology. Indeed, for the first time a special paint was used for Blackbird’s wings, tail and fuselage: since it contained iron ferrite, this paint absorbed radar energy instead of returning it to the sender.
> If the only thing that matters was shaping, the SR-71 airframe could never be considered stealth. With an RCS of a small light aircraft, when the SR-71 was found on radar it was too late for a SAM computer to estimate its direction for a successful kill.
> So, at that time, the SR-71 stealthiness was effective only because the Russians/Soviets didn’t have the proper technology to deal with him. Today, with the available technology, it would as detectable as an F-16!
> ...
> As I said before, stealthiness is about low detectability. At the time of SR-71, the Russians didn’t have the proper technology to detect the plane within time enough to deploy the countermeasures.
> .



The US stopped flying SR-71 over Sweden, after we sent up a JA-37 Viggen which took a close-in photo 
of the surprised pilot.

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## trident2010

When we going to see the weapons bay in operation??


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## RPK



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## sancho



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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> TCNs


what's that?



gambit said:


> The question are to what degree


You just reminded me of what what my Professor said on first day of college "Everything is poison, it depends on the Quantity"
you eat too much, you'll get eating disorders
you drink too much, you'll get hepatomegaly which will progress to liver cirrhosis (throw in a lot of hangovers just for fun unless you got some pharmaceutical cocaine)
& you smoke too much, you'll get a lung-cancer
Boy I hope I never-ever have to enter an oncology ward again.



gambit said:


> What you have been trying to do was to downplay the tactical advantages that low radar observability have in any battlefield.


Well i must say that the F-22 fully-utilizes the "low-observability" you speak of, being the only fighter so-far developed for all-aspect stealth I mean not only from every direction but also in every method of detection radar,IR,acoustic,visual you name it, they got it but, you do realize this is a Half-billion $ fighter we're talking about. I mean how many Raptors can The USA afford to maintain in its huge fleet post-cold war? also this fighter costs so much more to fly than others that US has greatly reduced the no. of hours an average USAF F-22 flies and I don't know a lot but what's the readiness of the USAF's Raptor fleet?. I feel that even the USA realizes that it went a little bit "Too Far Away" with the F-22 Raptor and the so-called "low-observability tactics".



longlong said:


> Don't expect US or his son NATO will set up a no-fly zone over Ukraine by F-22.





atlssa said:


> I don't think they would use as well..


What're you guys talking about? If Russia decides to go full-on in Ukraine in it's own backyard, there's nothing the USA or NATO can do with all of their f-22/35/16/18/15, EFTs & Rafales combined.

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> what's that?



Sorry, typo! I meant TVN, thrust vectoring nozzles.


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## Agent_47



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## DacterSaab

^^That's a Fulcrum right?


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## Agent_47

> Previously the IAF had wanted twin-seaters in keeping with its air superiority doctrine of having two pilots on-board with one serving as a dedicated weapons systems operator - a doctrine that it has evolved through its experience with the Su-30MKI. But in the case of the FGFA *it seems that there is an appreciable loss in terms of stealthiness arising from a larger radar cross section (RCS) for the two-seater configuration. There are also accompanying payload and combat radius penalties. These factors when taken together with the rising costs of development mean that the two-seater version does not make that much sense anymore.*


Saurav Jha's Blog : The case for speeding up India's domestic fifth generation fighter projects
comments ?


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## godofwar

> Previously the IAF had wanted twin-seaters in keeping with its air superiority doctrine of having two pilots on-board with one serving as a dedicated weapons systems operator - a doctrine that it has evolved through its experience with the Su-30MKI. But in the case of the FGFA *it seems that there is an appreciable loss in terms of stealthiness arising from a larger radar cross section (RCS) for the two-seater configuration. There are also accompanying payload and combat radius penalties. These factors when taken together with the rising costs of development mean that the two-seater version does not make that much sense anymore.*






Agent_47 said:


> comments ?



I told you so @sancho


----------



## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> Saurav Jha's Blog : The case for speeding up India's domestic fifth generation fighter projects
> comments ?



Not new report and false too, we know from the forme air chief, that they changed the order to keep costs in control, not because of changed requirements. This was later confirmed in several reports too:






Source: Take off ru 2013 (Russian aviation magazine)

Developing a single seat version for both air forces at the same time, is logically more cost-effective than developing an early Pak Fa, a later Pak Fa single seater and an FGFA twin seater. Now the Russian will get an early Pak Fa based on the current T50, while the later PaK Fa and FGFA will be single seaters, based on later prototypes with more changes. The next step after the first 144 then will be the development of the twin seater and follow orders and I have no doubt that IAF will keep aiming at 250 fighters in total, hopefully even more, but that depends on AMCA.



godofwar said:


> I told you so @sancho



What exactly?


----------



## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Developing a single seat version for both air forces at the same time, is logically more cost-effective than developing an early Pak Fa, a later Pak Fa single seater and an FGFA twin seater. Now the Russian will get an early Pak Fa based on the current T50, while the later PaK Fa and FGFA will be single seaters, based on later prototypes with more changes. The next step after the first 144 then will be the development of the twin seater and follow orders and I have no doubt that IAF will keep aiming at 250 fighters in total, hopefully even more, but that depends on AMCA.


yeah I'm pretty sure 144 is only an initial order there are bound to be follow-up orders.


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## godofwar

sancho said:


> Not new report and false too, we know from the forme air chief, that they changed the order to keep costs in control, not because of changed requirements. This was later confirmed in several reports too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Take off ru 2013 (Russian aviation magazine)
> 
> Developing a single seat version for both air forces at the same time, is logically more cost-effective than developing an early Pak Fa, a later Pak Fa single seater and an FGFA twin seater. Now the Russian will get an early Pak Fa based on the current T50, while the later PaK Fa and FGFA will be single seaters, based on later prototypes with more changes. The next step after the first 144 then will be the development of the twin seater and follow orders and I have no doubt that IAF will keep aiming at 250 fighters in total, hopefully even more, but that depends on AMCA.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly?



IAF is not getting a two seater.


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## SR-91

godofwar said:


> IAF is not getting a two seater.




Off topic.
im into keeping and growing corals.





this is a pic of
"GOD OF WAR" Zoanthids coral.

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## DacterSaab

SR-91 said:


> Off topic.
> im into keeping and growing corals.


wow so you got a salt-water aquarium. I have kept several small fishes 1st in bowl then in small aquarium, but stopped it cause couldn't keep large ones and small ones kept dieing.


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## SR-91

DacterSaab said:


> wow so you got a salt-water aquarium. I have kept several small fishes 1st in bowl then in small aquarium, but stopped it cause couldn't keep large ones and small ones kept dieing.




Yeah!!!
been there too, but now i have 200 gallon reef tank


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## sancho

*Flight tests with weapons on external stations!*

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## DrSomnath999

* P.S*
1) the russians unlike the chinese have nt installed nor shown weapons on internal weapon bays yet or may be they are developing new air to air missiles with foldable fins to install it later , Got to wait 

2) Is this weapon a KH31 krypton or some sort of AIR to Ground missile??





*CHEERS*


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## sancho

The Russians are pushing hard to keep the induction by 2015/16 as it seems.

- basic flight testing done
- high angle of attack tests done
- movable LERX and TVC tests done
- IFR done
- electro optics integrated
- AESA radar integrated
- EW integration under progress
- external weapon integration, under progress

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> * P.S*
> 1) the russians unlike the chinese have nt installed nor shown weapons on internal weapon bays yet or may be they are developing new air to air missiles with foldable fins to install it later , Got to wait



At least we haven't seen that so far from the T50, only the weapon bay tests on the Su 47 demonstrators. But we do know that they have developed a modified pack of weapons for the Pak Fa:

Kh 58





Kh-38





Not sure if that was possible with earlier R77s too








DrSomnath999 said:


> 2) Is this weapon a KH31 krypton or some sort of AIR to Ground missile??



Yes that's the Kh 31

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## Gessler

sancho said:


>



You sure these fins are of R-77?


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> electro optics integrated


Is it stealthy in shape and other aspects?



sancho said:


> AESA radar integrated


If we're gonna go for the later version on FGFA, why are we considering Zukh-AE for Super-30 upgrade? and also will Super-30 engines which are same as that on MKI produce sufficient power for Zukh-AE?
And why have Russians not built their own LDP? they are marketing Su-30 with Damocles nowadays.
FGFA is going to need a stealthy shaped LDP, reconnaissance pod and EOT pod.


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> You sure these fins are of R-77?



Yes:












DacterSaab said:


> Is it stealthy in shape and other aspects?



Electro optics = IRST, UV MAWS...



DacterSaab said:


> If we're gonna go for the later version on FGFA, why are we considering Zukh-AE for Super-30 upgrade? and also will Super-30 engines which are same as that on MKI produce sufficient power for Zukh-AE?


Zhuk AE or a BARS upgrade are available now as upgrades for for the Flanker and Mig 29 series, while a fully developed NG AESA might still take time, especially with all modes.



DacterSaab said:


> And why have Russians not built their own LDP? they are marketing Su-30 with Damocles nowadays.
> FGFA is going to need a stealthy shaped LDP, reconnaissance pod and EOT pod.



They have developed an own version now and are not dependent on Damocles anymore, but a dedicated internal version would be a good idea for sure.

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## sancho




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## sancho

> *Russian Air Force began to state tests newest fighter T-50*
> 
> Serial supplies a fifth generation fighter to the troops begin in 2016; not excluded even that the Air Force can get the T-50 ahead of schedule.
> State tests of the new Russian fighter T-50 (PAK FA project) started in Akhtubinsk (Astrakhan region), told reporters on Thursday Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev.
> According to the plan serial supplies a fifth generation fighter to the troops begin in 2016. Not even excluded that the Air Force can get the T-50 ahead of schedule. So far, only one country in the world is armed with fifth-generation fighter - U.S. F-22 and F-35...



Google Гњbersetzer

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## sancho

More pics here:

nickras: С подарками

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## trident2010

Good to see that RuAF is pushing T-50 for 2016 induction. Hopefully India get few of these for testing too.

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## sancho



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## Water Car Engineer



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## IND151

New missile for Pak-Fa fighter to be developed by 2016 | idrw.org

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## DANGER-ZONE

Weapon bay .. whats in the weapon bay ?
When will it open its weapon bay ???


----------



## sancho

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Weapon bay .. whats in the weapon bay ?
> When will it open its weapon bay ???



That's the mistery the Russians keep, so far we can only speculate.


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## Zhukov

You cannot compare a prototype with a mature platform. Also A government funded Struggling defence industry of russia cannot be compared with the multi billion American Aviation Industry.

PAKFA and J20 have great potential in future but i dont see END of US air dominance unless they prove them.

See you can find similar articles in defence journals of 80s that with advent of Mig29 and su27 American and Frenchbair dominance is over. But It is still the same.

Altough Russia China and India are on better sidenof the equition economically as compare to soviet union Against America and Allies so This mighy turnout differently

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## vostok

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> You cannot compare a prototype with a mature platform. Also A government funded Struggling defence industry of russia cannot be compared with the multi billion American Aviation Industry.
> 
> PAKFA and J20 have great potential in future but i dont see END of US air dominance unless they prove them.
> 
> See you can find similar articles in defence journals of 80s that with advent of Mig29 and su27 American and Frenchbair dominance is over. But It is still the same.
> 
> Altough Russia China and India are on better sidenof the equition economically as compare to soviet union Against America and Allies so This mighy turnout differently


You should not overestimate the U.S. defense budget. A huge proportion of it goes to the maintenance of hundreds of bases around the world and on the carrier battle groups. In addition, one dollar for military development in the U.S. = 3 dollars in Russia.

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## nomi007

sancho said:


> That's the mistery the Russians keep, so far we can only speculate.


no weapon bay look design of pakfa

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## sancho




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## sancho

*Electro-optics comparison:*

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## kaykay

Russian air forces started the state testing of T-50 fighter - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

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## Water Car Engineer



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## trident2010

Can't understand why so much delay with internal weapons bay. Waiting for new set of weapons tailored made for T-50?


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Can't understand why so much delay with internal weapons bay. Waiting for new set of weapons tailored made for T-50?



Only because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they weren't done yet. Till the recent pics with external payloads came out, we only had seen pics with external pylons, which doesn't mean they wouldn't had made weapon trials earlier. Internal carriage and weapon trials obviously are not that visible and would require official pics to be released. 
Wrt the weapon pack, I would be more interested in what weapon pack IAF aims for FGFA. It is crucial for us to have an own operational requirement and chose weapons that not only fit to the weapon bays, but also fits to those requirements. So we should only choose those Russain weapons that are good for us and not just everything that is available, just like we shouldn't take any Indian weapon, only because it's Indian.


----------



## trident2010

sancho said:


> Only because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they weren't done yet. Till the recent pics with external payloads came out, we only had seen pics with external pylons, which doesn't mean they wouldn't had made weapon trials earlier. Internal carriage and weapon trials obviously are not that visible and would require official pics to be released.
> Wrt the weapon pack, I would be more interested in what weapon pack IAF aims for FGFA. It is crucial for us to have an own operational requirement and chose weapons that not only fit to the weapon bays, but also fits to those requirements. So we should only choose those Russain weapons that are good for us and not just everything that is available, just like we shouldn't take any Indian weapon, only because it's Indian.



Yes thats true that they might have done it already but not showing it in open. For external pylons, IAF will have many options but for an internal weapons bay, it is advisible to go with what Russia is offering and later develop/codevelop the weapons require as we get more insight into FGFA capabilities and requirments.


----------



## Black Widow

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Weapon bay .. *whats in the weapon bay ?*
> When will it open its weapon bay ???




Chocolate, Milk cake, Candies, Ice-cream in the weapon bay

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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Yes thats true that they might have done it already but not showing it in open. For external pylons, IAF will have many options but for an internal weapons bay, it is advisible to go with what Russia is offering and later develop/codevelop the weapons require as we get more insight into FGFA capabilities and requirments.



I disagree, we know the specs of the internal weapon bay, so can evaluate suitable weapons even today. If we have better weapons on offer, why use Russian once? KAB 500 for example is a standard bomb for Russian fighters, that we can replace by Sudarshan especially if we really develop an extended range version. SPICE 250 is a weapon the Israelis purposly develop for Internal weapon bays, to fit as many bombs in a small space, for which the Russians have no counterpart so far. Also one important field for stealth fighters will be AAMs, where the Russians offer just some modernised R77 and R73 versions, but basically with the same size and weight specs. But stealth fighters actually would perform better with small missiles and different seekers, at higher loads, since the way doing air combats will be different than to non stealth fighters. So although we develop own Indian weapons for LCA, MKIs, Mig 29s next to Russian weapons, FGFA / AMCA / AURA should be aimed at a different and more suitable weapon pack, at least for the internal weapon bays.

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## sancho

Russians busy in testing:


















And another one of the weapon flighttests:

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## MastanKhan

The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — Medium


 Russia's New T-50 Fighter Still Can't Compete With The F-35


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## trident2010

MastanKhan said:


> The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — Medium
> 
> 
> Russia's New T-50 Fighter Still Can't Compete With The F-35



The amount of money and time F-35 is taking to shape up is much higher than T-50. I won't be surprised if it is currently more advanced among the two. However, in coming years I am sure Russia will narrow the gap and hopefully come up with a very potent 5th gen fighter.


----------



## Donatello

trident2010 said:


> The amount of money and time F-35 is taking to shape up is much higher than T-50. I won't be surprised if it is currently more advanced among the two. However, in coming years I am sure Russia will narrow the gap and hopefully come up with a very potent 5th gen fighter.



USA is the only country to field a full stealth plane. Starting from the SR71 (not fully stealth, but had the design input towards low observability), B2, F117, F22 and F35, they have a solid 50 years of experience. Russia has none, and neither does China. Building a true stealth plane is a momentous task. Pouring in money will take you only so far. Aerospace is a far more challenging field.

Ever wonder why there is no company in the world to challenge Boeing and Airbus in widebody duopoly? It took Major industrial powers of Europe to piece together Airbus and they have come a long way. Stealth 5Gen is something far more complicated. As seen on T-50, the engines nozzles themselves give a hint that Russians don't have full stealth program running. It will take years to refine the prototypes and then finally decide on the production models. YF-22 came a long way to become the F/A22. And it wasn't without it's share of problems, despite Lockheed having years of experience in the field. They pretty much defined it.

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## Robin_k

In first link issue regarding engine and radar discussed many times nothing new and in 2nd link writer talking about export date not technology .

then what's your point?


----------



## sancho

trident2010 said:


> I won't be surprised if it is currently more advanced among the two.



I would be surprised, because spending more doesn't make it more capable! Remember this capability comparison of the EF consortium?






And I added the Pak Fa / FGFA once to the comparison too:






People simply tend to downplay the Pak Fa compared to the F35 based on the bias, that the US have more experience with stealth and that their shapings therefor must be the only solution. But when you actually look at what it takes to be a 5th gen fighter and compare the F35 with it, you will see that it falls short in many areas and even in stealth compared to the better designed F22, which is why several US allies wanted the F22 instead of the F35 and complained about the stealth capability.

Even if you compare the fighter to US definitions of a 5th gen fighter, it clearly fulfills all criterias:











*Dominant situational awareness -* long range, high FoV AESA (fixed) radar, 360° electro optical sensor capability, RWR, LWR, dedicated IRST *- CHECK, equal or even superior to US counterparts!*

*Net enabled -* data link and SATCOM guidance planned from the start *- CHECK!

Designed in stealth -* aligned edges, angled airframe design, embedded antennas, internal store carriage - *CHECK*, except for the engine coverings and the nozzles of the current engine, which as we know are a stop gap solution for Russian forces and make it design wise more comparable to the F35 shapings.

*Tech insertation* => embedded antennas - *CHECK!*

*Full line of sight blockage* - partially so far, due to design of the inlets and positioning of the engine, while the final solution for the NG engine is still to come and most likely includes a radar blocker, similar to Boeing or Mitsubishi stealth fighter projects.


So except for the areas that are aimed for the later Pak Fa and the FGFA, it already not only fits the bill, but sets new benchmarks in this generation. But as long as people keep looking at the engines and keep ignoring all the other capabilities and the performances it already shows in the T50 prototype stage, we will keep hearing silly things.

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## trident2010

sancho said:


> I would be surprised, because spending more doesn't make it more capable! Remember this capability comparison of the EF consortium?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I added the Pak Fa / FGFA once to the comparison too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People simply tend to downplay the Pak Fa compared to the F35 based on the bias, that the US have more experience with stealth and that their shapings therefor must be the only solution. But when you actually look at what it takes to be a 5th gen fighter and compare the F35 with it, you will see that it falls short in many areas and even in stealth compared to the better designed F22, which is why several US allies wanted the F22 instead of the F35 and complained about the stealth capability.
> 
> Even if you compare the fighter to US definitions of a 5th gen fighter, it clearly fulfills all criterias:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dominant situational awareness -* long range, high FoV AESA (fixed) radar, 360° electro optical sensor capability, RWR, LWR, dedicated IRST *- CHECK, equal or even superior to US counterparts!*
> 
> *Net enabled -* data link and SATCOM guidance planned from the start *- CHECK!
> 
> Designed in stealth -* aligned edges, angled airframe design, embedded antennas, internal store carriage - *CHECK*, except for the engine coverings and the nozzles of the current engine, which as we know are a stop gap solution for Russian forces and make it design wise more comparable to the F35 shapings.
> 
> *Tech insertation* => embedded antennas - *CHECK!*
> 
> *Full line of sight blockage* - partially so far, due to design of the inlets and positioning of the engine, while the final solution for the NG engine is still to come and most likely includes a radar blocker, similar to Boeing or Mitsubishi stealth fighter projects.
> 
> 
> So except for the areas that are aimed for the later Pak Fa and the FGFA, it already not only fits the bill, but sets new benchmarks in this generation. The but as long as people keep looking at the engines and keep ignoring all the other capabilities and the performances it already shows in the T50 prototype stage, we will keep hearing silly things.




Thanks for reply. Few senior Pakistani members are trying hard to disregard the achievements of T-50. I am sure all these things are already mentioned elsewhere but what one can do..


----------



## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Thanks for reply. Few senior Pakistani members are trying hard to disregard the achievements of T-50. I am sure all these things are already mentioned elsewhere but what one can do..



I don't think that was the aim, in fact the article that claimed that India hates the FGFA is based on the nonsense that Ajay Shukla spread in his article, so Indians that talk silly things have their share too.


----------



## sancho

Some older, but very beautiful pics:

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## Sergi

@sancho : any visible changes in 055(-1 ???) from other prototypes ???


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## he-man

Sergi said:


> @sancho : any visible changes in 055(-1 ???) from other prototypes ???



056 and 057 will have some changes after static tests.
one of these models 056 or 057 would be a static frame for rcs measurement and we may see some changes after those.

but not much

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho : any visible changes in 055(-1 ???) from other prototypes ???



Yes, the made some design optimations at the APU intakes or the wing tips. It also is testing different systems, the MAWS for example are not installed, but DIRCM turrets and LWR.

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## IND151

sancho said:


> Only because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they weren't done yet. Till the recent pics with external payloads came out, we only had seen pics with external pylons, which doesn't mean they wouldn't had made weapon trials earlier. Internal carriage and weapon trials obviously are not that visible and would require official pics to be released.
> Wrt the weapon pack, I would be more interested in what weapon pack IAF aims for FGFA. It is crucial for us to have an own operational requirement and chose weapons that not only fit to the weapon bays, but also fits to those requirements. So we should only choose those Russain weapons that are good for us and not just everything that is available, just like we shouldn't take any Indian weapon, only because it's Indian.



I am sure we will choose RVV-SD, what worriers me is that IWBs will not be deep enough and they will not be able to carry 8 AAMs as sources say.

Perhaps Pak Fa will carry only 1 BVR per IWB (main IWB.) Of coarse I am not expert. 

What do you think?


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> I am sure we will choose RVV-SD, what worriers me is that IWBs will not be deep enough and they will not be able to carry 8 AAMs as sources say.
> 
> Perhaps Pak Fa will carry only 1 BVR per IWB (main IWB.) Of coarse I am not expert.
> 
> What do you think?



It's not the depth but the width of the weapon bay that is important for how many missiles could be carried. So far we are speculating mainly, but it is estimated that the space between the air intakes of the T50 is wider than at the Su 35. The latter is shown to be able to carry 2 R77 next to each other on new twin launchers, which means 4 in total.
So if that fighter can carry 2 and the T50 has more space, which is also not limited by pylons, I expect at least 3 can be carried in each bay, so a total of 6.
The rear bay is not as deep as the front bay, which makes it likely that the front bay will carry bigger A2G weapons, while the rear bay will carry BVR missiles in any role. And if the housings below the wing really can hold 1 R73 each, we talk about at least 2 WVR + 3 BVR missiles in any role (F22 2 + 2, F35 0 + 2).

However, as I said earlier, we have to look at a dedicated weapon pack for our fighters with internal weapon bays. A MICA with 70 to 100Km range is far better for a stealth fighter, than a METEOR, AIM 120D, or latest R77 version with high maximum range, because a stealth fighter can get far closer to it's target without being detected and can launch it's weapon from within the no escape zone and with higher kill probability. Just like several GPS guided stand off weapons like SPICE 250 or SDB will be more benificiary than large LGBs like Sudarshan.

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## sancho

> Today I became to know that during test flights in Moscow a Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 caught fire, while carrying out a test flight. Online immediately rumors said that it was lost.
> 
> Photos of the successful landing. Now it will recover and appointed a committee investigating the incident.



Критерием истины является опыт. - June 10th, 2014

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## sancho

> *Fifth-generation fighter T-50 caught fire on landing in Moscow*
> 
> Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA project), carrying out a test flight in Moscow on Tuesday ignited during landing, told RIA Novosti source in the Russian power structures.
> 
> The incident occurred at the Gromov Flight Research Institute airfield "Ramenskoye.""According to preliminary data, the T-50 was a failure of one of the power plants and during the landing there was a small fire plating. People were not injured, the hearth fire was extinguished quickly," - said the agency interlocutor.Circumstances of the incident are being investigated.



Истребитель пятого поколения Т-50 загорелся при посадке в Подмосковье | РИА Новости




> *Sukhoi's message over the incident with the T-50 aircraft*
> 
> Moscow, June 10. Today after the regular test flight of the T-50 aircraft at the airfield of the M.M.Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovsky near Moscow, while the plane was landing, a smoke above the right air intake was observed, then a local fire broke out. The fire was quickly extinguished. The plane is to be repaired. There were no injuries. The Sukhoi Design Bureau set up a commission that will investigate the causes of the accident. This incident will not affect the timing of the T-50 test program.



Sukhoi Company (JSC) - News - News

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## atlssa

sancho said:


> Истребитель пятого поколения Т-50 загорелся при посадке в Подмосковье | РИА Новости
> Sukhoi Company (JSC) - News - News



There are discrepancies within the official messages. In Russian, they confirmed the plane is damaged beyond repair.

ОАО "Компания "Сухой" - Новости - Новости компании
Google Translate

ОАК :: Новости OAK :: Сообщение компании «Сухой» по поводу инцидента с самолетом Т-50
Google Translate


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> There are discrepancies within the official messages. In Russian, they confirmed the plane is damaged beyond repair.
> 
> ОАО "Компания "Сухой" - Новости - Новости компании
> Google Translate
> 
> ОАК :: Новости OAK :: Сообщение компании «Сухой» по поводу инцидента с самолетом Т-50
> Google Translate



The problem is the bad google translator, had to bring some sense in the parts that I posted too, maybe @vostok can give us a better translation.

The damage however seems to be right above the air intake, but there seems to be credible damage at the fuselage too.

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## IND151

T-50 Fighter Jet Fire Near Moscow Not to Affect Test Run | idrw.org


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## nomi007

how indian see this incident?


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## vostok

sancho said:


> The problem is the bad google translator, had to bring some sense in the parts that I posted too, maybe @vostok can give us a better translation.
> 
> The damage however seems to be right above the air intake, but there seems to be credible damage at the fuselage too.


"landing of aircraft T-50 observed smoke blanketing above the right air intake, then there was a local fire. It was quickly extinguished. Plane subject to recovery".

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## IND151

sancho said:


> *The latter is shown to be able to carry 2 R77 next to each other on new twin launchers, which means 4 in total.*
> 
> 
> .



Any source for this claim (article,photo)?


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## IND151

Kindly tell me whether its real or not.


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## proud_indian

IND151 said:


> Kindly tell me whether its real or not.



it's very much real it's a prototype su-47 

Sukhoi Su-47 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Robinhood Pandey

@sancho is this cammo in use now ?


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## Mughal-Prince

sancho said:


> Критерием истины является опыт. - June 10th, 2014



This seems to be a set back to this program although 2 more in testing but their is something Russians are not disclosing about engines as we have seen earlier in an Air show their was an engine fire out and again we have seen another incident.

Its now very important how India look into this program because I have a feeling that Russians will try to cover up things and try to hurried up things now which may further create problems in future. In the end its all my view of angle none need to be agreed with it. Looking forward to read from Indian members.


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> Any source for this claim (article,photo)?



Su 35 weapon loadout (check RVV-AE loads at station 1 and 2)






Or Su 35 model, presented by Sukhoi at the Paris Air Show:







IND151 said:


> Kindly tell me whether its real or not.



It's real:
















Robinhood Pandey said:


> @sancho is this cammo in use now ?



It's just a PS, here is the original pic:

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## ejaz007

*T-50 Fighter Jet Fire Near Moscow Not to Affect Test Run*

MOSCOW, June 10 (RIA Novosti) — An accident with an advanced Russian T-50 fifth-generation fighter jet, which briefly caught on fire while landing near Moscow, will not affect the schedule of planes’ test runs, Sukhoi company said Tuesday.

One of the T-50's engines failed during landing near Moscow on Tuesday, and there was a minor fire on aircraft’s hull. No casualties were reported and the fire was quickly extinguished.

“The jet will be restored. No one was injured. Sukhoi company has set up a commission to investigate the reasons of the accident. But the accident will not change the schedule of test runs slated for the T-50 program,” the company said in a statement.

The Sukhoi T-50 features a stealth profile with internal weapons bays for air and ground-attack weapons, thrust-vectoring engines for high-acceleration turns and an ability known as supercruise to fly supersonic without the use of a fuel-guzzling afterburner. The first flight was held in January 2010. In 2011, the jet was first displayed to the public at the MAKS airshow. In 2013, three jets were presented at the show and performed group maneuvers.

Combat squadrons could expect deliveries no later than in 2016 of the production version, known by its Russian acronym PAK-FA for future tactical fighter aircraft. The PAK-FA will replace the country’s aging fleet of Soviet-era fighter jets.

T-50 Fighter Jet Fire Near Moscow Not to Affect Test Run | Defense | RIA Novosti

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## sancho

NPO "SATURN" > ENGINES FOR MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND UAS


Screenshot from the NPO Saturn website, seems like they are preparing for to add infos on the NG engine for Pak Fa / FGFA soon. But kind of strange which pics they use to show both versions. 


And more test flights of the T53 and T54:

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## Indus Falcon

*India And Russia Are Trying To Build A Next-Generation Fighter Jet Together, And It's Not Going Well*

JEREMY BENDER
JUN. 26, 2014, 11:40 AM
India's co-development of a fifth-generation fighter with Russia has not progressed quite as smoothly as the top brass in the Indian Air Force (IAF) had hoped.

The Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) was meant to radically upgrade India's air strength through the combination of Russian expertise and Indian financing.

Instead, the IAF has been publicly slamming the development of the next-generation fighter. According to the Business Standard, the IAF has been lambasting the FGFA since at least last December over a series of design flaws. India's also not happy about a perceived unequal split of work between the two countries, in addition to mushrooming expenses, and inadequate engines for the plane. 

In January, the IAF took criticism of the FGFA a step further when the deputy chief of air staff complained that its engines and stealth capabilities — key components of a fifth-generation fighter — were far from adequate. 

The IAF's complaints may have less to do with the plane itself than with India's internal politics.

India's Air Force cannot dictate military procurement. Under India's system, the Air Force relies on the Ministry of Defense's civilian bureaucracy to dictate policy. So, the IAF's public criticism of the fighter could be a way to pressure the Ministry into formulating a more equitable and efficient procurement policy, at least when Russia's involved. 

Likewise, India also has plans to purchase French Rafale fighters. The Air Force could also be trying to secure a better financial deal with Russia over the next-generation fighters while still having money left over to purchase jets from France. 

Regardless of the IAF's actual views on the FGFA, military cooperation between Russia and India is likely to continue — Russia currently supplies India with75% of its arms imports.

As Mark Kronenberg, a vice president of international business development for Boeing Defense, told Aviation Week: “if you look at the India-Russia relationship, it goes back to 1962. I don’t think that relationship will ever go [in] reverse." 

The co-venture between Russia and India to develop a fifth-generation fighter has been in the works since 2010. The Russian T-50 variant of the FGFA has had some success, while the Indian variant is expected to begin extensive flight testing in India in 2014. 


India Is Not Happy With Fifth-Generation Fighter - Business Insider


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## sancho

Now that we have seen the first pics of the T50 with weapons, we might also get a better idea about the size of the weapon / missile bays:












With folded fins of the newer R73 and R77 versions, this config seems to be possible, maybe even more depending on the depth of the weapon bays.

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## Sergi

@sancho nice find 

One wild question: Can weapon pods on 5th gen aircraft cause increased in Radar Signature ???

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho nice find
> 
> One wild question: Can weapon pods on 5th gen aircraft cause increased in Radar Signature ???



Depends on how good they would be integrated to the design, I guess. If they are added to external pylons like on the Silent Hornet, they will increase the RCS much more, than the estimated missile bays for the R73 under the wing.


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## nair

Su 30 MKI, Mig 29, F15, F22, F/A 18 & Hawk Trainer

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## The Great One

nair said:


> View attachment 37266
> 
> 
> Su 30 MKI, Mig 29, F15, F22, F/A 18 & Hawk Trainer


Whoa. Is that real.

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## Gessler

The Great One said:


> Whoa. Is that real.



Yes, from recent COPE-TAUFAN exercise. It coincides with USAF deployment of
F-22 Raptors to Malaysia for the first time.


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## MST

nair said:


> View attachment 37266
> 
> 
> Su 30 MKI, Mig 29, F15, F22, F/A 18 & Hawk Trainer



Not MKI but MKM

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## Badbadman



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## DANGER-ZONE

New bird ... !
I see a few changes, like intakes. I think it has been redesigned.


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## Gessler

DANGER-ZONE said:


> New bird ... !
> I see a few changes, like intakes. I think it has been redesigned.



It's a PS. Already posted.

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## samy1618

DANGER-ZONE said:


> New bird ... !
> I see a few changes, like intakes. I think it has been redesigned.


Hay can any body identify this..plain..if it's pakaf then when there is no indian flag in the side of this fuselage but what are the other three flags can any body recognized it


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## sancho

samy1618 said:


> Hay can any body identify this..plain..if it's pakaf then when there is no indian flag in the side of this fuselage but what are the other three flags can any body recognized it



As Gessler said, it's a photoshopped pic, here is the original:







And here are the other PS pics:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 126


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## sancho



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## trident2010

Does T-50 has a final version of AESA radar installed in it or its still under development?


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## he-man

trident2010 said:


> Does T-50 has a final version of AESA radar installed in it or its still under development?



under testing for 2 years now,,,installed in 3 protos i think

search n036 radar

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## Black Widow

Sergi said:


> @sancho nice find
> 
> One wild question: *Can weapon pods on 5th gen aircraft cause increased in Radar Signature *???





Yes it will, The External payload compromise stealth capability of a plane..


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## Jason bourne

056 ?

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## he-man

Jason bourne said:


> View attachment 40692
> 
> 
> 056 ?



Paint scheme looks newer,,,not sure though


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## sancho



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## sancho

> Experts of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) found cause of the incident, which occurred in early June in Zhukovsky, where lit promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA). In an interview with Itar-Tass said the head of the directorate of military programs KLA Vladimir Mikhailov.
> "The reasons are already known, but the commission has not yet completed its work, and to call them is premature. Now experts are working on the identification of possible sources of these reasons," - said Mikhailov.
> 
> He stressed that the incident will not affect the overall time for testing the PAK FA program. According to Mikhailov, the amount of damage is not yet specified, and the data and findings of the investigation will be made public later.
> 
> "Today, I can only say that the fighter will be fully restored. Scope of the tests, which was planned for the aircraft, will be reallocated to other machines, and connect to the restored fighter tests later," - said the head of the directorate of military programs KLA.



АРМС-ТАСС


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## Armstrong

@sancho - Yaaar aren't the pictures you posted above of that Stealth Fighter that India-Russia are developing (or thinking of developing) ?  

Shouldn't having exposed missiles under its wings compromise on the airplane's stealthiness ?


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## Sri

Similarly F22


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## Kaalapani

Armstrong said:


> @sancho - Yaaar aren't the pictures you posted above of that Stealth Fighter that India-Russia are developing (or thinking of developing) ?
> 
> Shouldn't having exposed missiles under its wings compromise on the airplane's stealthiness ?




They can carry internal or external.Stealth is a profile.


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## sancho

Armstrong said:


> Shouldn't having exposed missiles under its wings compromise on the airplane's stealthiness ?



Of course, but you don't need internal load carriage in every mission, but mainly in early stages of a war. In latter stages, or less important roles, external carriage will be used to increase the capability and that's why it's not unusual that you integrate and test external weapons or fuel tanks to stealth fighters too.

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## he-man

Armstrong said:


> @sancho - Yaaar aren't the pictures you posted above of that Stealth Fighter that India-Russia are developing (or thinking of developing) ?
> 
> Shouldn't having exposed missiles under its wings compromise on the airplane's stealthiness ?








Enjoy the beauty man

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## sancho



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## sancho



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## illusion8

Moscow, Aug 15 (IANS/ITAR -TASS) Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has completed the front-end engineering design of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) for India's Air Force, UAC president Mikhail Pogosyan said Friday.

The UAC is preparing the contract on the aircraft's full-scale development for signing, he told Arms-Tass.

"We have completed the front end engineering design stage," he said. "The work on the preparation of the contract on the FGFA full-scale development is now in progress," he added.

The FGFA development and production is a major project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation.

The two sides signed the corresponding agreement in Moscow in October 2007. In December 2010, Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter, Sukhoi company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract on the aircraft's front end engineering design development.

Since January 2012, a group of India's specialists has been working in Russia, and Russia's specialists in India. The two sides have established the required information exchange.

FGFA is developed on the basis of the Russian PAK FA fifth-generation fighter project. However, it will differ from the prototype to meet Indian Air Force's specific requirements.

Russia prepares 5th-generation fighter for India - Yahoo News India

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## greatone

illusion8 said:


> View attachment 43488
> 
> 
> *The FGFA development and production is a major project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation.*
> 
> The two sides signed the corresponding agreement in Moscow in October 2007. In December 2010, Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter, Su*khoi company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract on the aircraft's front end engineering design development.
> 
> Since January 2012, a group of India's specialists has been working in Russia, and Russia's specialists in India. The two sides have established the required information exchange.*
> 
> FGFA is developed on the basis of the Russian PAK FA fifth-generation fighter project. However, it will differ from the prototype to meet Indian Air Force's specific requirements.
> 
> Russia prepares 5th-generation fighter for India - Yahoo News India



What exactly is Indian contribution to this aircraft ? Both monetarily and tech-wise.

And what about export to third countries ? How much say will India have in the matter and what will be Indian share of the money, if any ?


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## illusion8

greatone said:


> What exactly is Indian contribution to this aircraft ? Both monetarily and tech-wise.
> 
> And what about export to third countries ? How much say will India have in the matter and what will be Indian share of the money, if any ?



Monetarily both will invest 25-30 billion each, export to third countries will be decided jointly - it's a 50-50 JV and as for the tech input..



> The two sides signed the corresponding agreement in Moscow in October 2007. In December 2010, Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter, Sukhoi company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract on the aircraft's front end engineering design development.
> 
> Since January 2012, a group of India's specialists has been working in Russia, and Russia's specialists in India. The two sides have established the required information exchange.
> 
> FGFA is developed on the basis of the Russian PAK FA fifth-generation fighter project. However, it will differ from the prototype to meet Indian Air Force's specific requirements.



HAL will be manufacturing FGFA in house, plus IAF will want to integrate western (probably French and Israeli) and indigenous avionics in it's plane.

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## IndoUS

That's a MIG on the poster if I am not mistaken?


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## kurup

IndoUS said:


> That's a MIG on the poster if I am not mistaken?



Nope , it's a Flanker for sure .

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## Echo_419

illusion8 said:


> View attachment 43488
> 
> 
> Moscow, Aug 15 (IANS/ITAR -TASS) Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has completed the front-end engineering design of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) for India's Air Force, UAC president Mikhail Pogosyan said Friday.
> 
> The UAC is preparing the contract on the aircraft's full-scale development for signing, he told Arms-Tass.
> 
> "We have completed the front end engineering design stage," he said. "The work on the preparation of the contract on the FGFA full-scale development is now in progress," he added.
> 
> The FGFA development and production is a major project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation.
> 
> The two sides signed the corresponding agreement in Moscow in October 2007. In December 2010, Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter, Sukhoi company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract on the aircraft's front end engineering design development.
> 
> Since January 2012, a group of India's specialists has been working in Russia, and Russia's specialists in India. The two sides have established the required information exchange.
> 
> FGFA is developed on the basis of the Russian PAK FA fifth-generation fighter project. However, it will differ from the prototype to meet Indian Air Force's specific requirements.
> 
> Russia prepares 5th-generation fighter for India - Yahoo News India



Yeh Kya hai,the first picture is of a Flanker


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## trident2010

IndoUS said:


> That's a MIG on the poster if I am not mistaken?



I think Su-35BM.

*Development of Sukhoi FGFA on course, full-scale development contract being drafted*

*Moscow/ New Delhi: *The front-end engineering design of Sukhoi FGFA, the fifth generation fighter plane being jointly developed by Russia and India for Indian Air Force has been completed.

The United Aircraf Corporation (UAC), the company beghind the designing of the state-of-the-art fighter jet, is under the process of preparing the contract for full-scale development of the jet.

The Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) or Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF) is a fifth-generation fighter being developed by India and Russia. 

The Indian model will bear slight difference from its Russian counterpart based upon the needs of Indian Air Force.

FGFA was the earlier designation for the Indian version, while the combined project is now called the Perspective Multi-Role Fighter (PMF).

Two separate prototypes will be developed, one by Russia and a separate one by India.

According to erstwhile HAL chairman A.K. Baweja (speaking shortly after the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Committee meeting on 18 September 2008), both the Russian and Indian versions of the aircraft will be single-seater. The first aircraft is to begin testing in India in 2014, with introduction into service expected by 2022.

Last year, India and Russia signed a contract to arm the jet with never-seen-before advanced air engagement system.

The K-77M air-to-air missile will combine fire-and-forget guidance and single-shot-kill that will triumph over any evasive manoeuvres by the target.

"The major innovation of the K-77M air-to-air missile is its guidance system, based on an active phased array antenna (APAA) of its own, Izvestia daily reports. With APAA onboard, the missile has zero reaction time to unexpected evolutions of the target, which means that once it locks on an aircraft, it would hit it no matter what aerial acrobatics the target would perform to shake off the inbound killer missile," quoted Russia Today.


Development of Sukhoi FGFA well on course, full-scale development contract being drafted - daily.bhaskar.com

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## sancho

Translated



> *the restoration of the fighter, which was burning in Zhukovsky, will be completed in the coming weeks*
> 
> The Fighter of the 5th generation, that caught fire in Zhukovsky near Moscow in early June, will be fully restored and will return to the test in a few weeks. Told Itar-Tass source in the company "Sukhoi".
> "Repair work is already in the final stage, the restoration of the fighter is nearing completion," - said the source.
> 
> "We hope to return fighter in the test program in the coming weeks," - he added.
> 
> Causes of fire aircraft source refused to name, referring to the secret nature of the information. Earlier, the head of the directorate of military programs of the United Aircraft Corporation, Vladimir Mikhailov said that the cause of the incident with a fighter known, but it is premature to call them; He said that the data and findings of the investigation will be made public later.



ИТАР-ТАСС: Происшествия - "Сухой": восстановление истребителя, горевшего в Жуковском, завершится в ближайшие недели

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## sancho



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## DrSomnath999

*From TAKE-OFF RU JULY 2014
























*

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## DrSomnath999

*Update on PMF/FGFA programme*






August 30, 2014: India and Russia will soon sign new $11 billion contract for the crucial experimental design phase of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme. This follows a series of contracts since 2007, including a general contract on joint design and production, followed by a contract for engineering development. The crucial phase will involve the actual 'shift' of some of the work to India, including the setting up of facilities, building the Indian prototype and flight testing that is expected to begin by the end of this decade. The Indian Prospective Multirole Fighter (PMF), as the Indian single-seat version is officially called, will take shape during this crucial phase, with deeper clarity on the workshare between Sukhoi and HAL.
As things stand, the IAF plans to order 144 single-seat aircraft. Indications are that there is negligible scope for HAL to tinker with the T-50/PAK FA airframe given the timeframes provided by the IAF for delivery. Secondly, HAL will not be looking to improve upon an airframe that will be largely proven in test flights by the time the Indian PMF prototype takes shape in fabrication facilities. While development work itself may be something of a fait accompli given that the Russians are already testing a full fleet of prototypes, including two ground test aircraft, HAL has been asked not to surrender workshare in the final matrix of cooperation. Currently there are four T-50 fighter aircraft undergoing flight tests in Zhukovsky (The first flight of the PAK FA took place on January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.) Two more are dedicated to ground testing: one as a complex ground stand and the other undergoes static tests. The complexity of the negotiations and deliberations mean there is a fear that HAL could settle for much less work than initially agreed upon, thereby placing the IAF in precisely the sort of position it is looking to avoid: total dependence on Russia for yet another frontline platform.

The flight test programme had a bit of a scare in June this year when after the regular test flight of T-50 prototype at the airfield of the M.M.Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovsky near Moscow, while the plane was landing, a fire broke out and smoke was observed above the right air intake. The fire was quickly extinguished but not before some damage to the airframe.The aircraft is still under repair, with the Sukhoi Design Bureau's commission still investigate the causes of the accident. Sukhoi had stated at the time that this incident would not affect the timing of the T-50 test program.

In February this year, one prototype of the T-50, piloted by the test pilot of the 1st Class Sergey Chernyshev, flew to the 929th Chkalov State Flight Test Centre’s airfield in Akhtubinsk for joint testing, where the aircraft was put through aero-dynamic features evaluation, tests of stability and controllability and of dynamic strength, function check of on-board equipment and aircraft systems. According to Sukhoi, the optical locator system as well as active electronically scanned array radar was tested on the aircraft with "positive results obtained". Crucial air refueling mode was also tested. "Supermaneuverability tests of the aircraft are under way. Aircraft systems are being tested on the test stands, ground experimental works continue," the design bureau states.

Constant comparisons with the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II don't bother the Russians too much. They believe that a long-term relationship makes them a natural partner in the PMF programme. "Compared to the previous generation fighters, the PAK FA combines the functions of a strike aircraft and a fighter, thus offering a number of unique capabilities. The use of composite materials and innovative technologies plus the aerodynamic layout of the aircraft, special airframe coating and measures to reduce the power plant, antenna and cockpit signature assure unprecedentedly low radar, optical and infrared observability. This considerably improves the operational effectiveness against air and ground targets at all times and in all weathers," says Sukhoi.

HAL says, "The proposed FGFA will have air combat superiority, high tactical capability, group action capability in the regions even with poor communication support. The aircraft will have advanced features like increased stealth, supersonic cruise, sata link and network centric warfare capability."
Update on PMF/FGFA programme - SP’s Exculsive

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> Secondly, HAL will not be looking to improve upon an airframe that will be largely proven in test flights by the time the Indian PMF prototype takes shape in fabrication facilities. While development work itself may be something of a fait accompli given that the Russians are already testing a full fleet of prototypes, including two ground test aircraft, HAL has been asked not to surrender workshare in the final matrix of cooperatio



What nonsense. The Russians are currently developing and testing "their" T50 prototypes while FGFA prototypes will be developed jointly with HAL even today. The decision to go for a single seater at first, obviously limits HAL's design workshare, but the crucial point was, how they can implement changes required by the IAF into the fighter, from design stage. That will be the most important point of the coming contracts and works shares, how much Indian parts actually will be added into the first and into the later PMF versions. 
A logical way could be:

- early Pak Fa from 2016 - for Russia only
- early PMF from 2019 - for Russia, India and exports
- later PMF with twin seat and more changes - for India only

The early PMF then would be the one with the big numbers, that also could be provided to export customers and therefor would reduce the costs the most, while Russia and India would still get their own version according to their requirements (early Pak Fa and the fully fledged PMF).

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## DrSomnath999

@sancho

I do think that HAL would have to make minimal design changes on the air frame even after signing the 2nd contract exclusively for indian
FFGA .Because of the strict timelines of induction .

Think logically if major design change does happens on FFGA then it would take further time for testing it's aerodynamic design on a new prototype
& it would be technologically not feasible to build a same plane with 2 different looking platforms .

Basically PAK-fa of russia or FFGA for india would have same design with minor structural changes eg 2 seater or some enhanced composities on it's airframe.

Avionics wise it might be different but structurally i dont beleive major design changes would be feasible economically & technologically


*CHEERS*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> @sancho
> 
> I do think that HAL would have to make minimal design changes on the air frame



Quiet possible, especially with the new engine coming with the PMF, which most likely will get new engine coverings and possibly new nozzles too. The bulk of their design part however, was meant to be the change to twin seat config and possibly to design a naval version. So that is the issue the media now cooks up, ignoring the fact that HAL has no part in the current T50 or Pak Fa development, which makes complaining about a low workshare now, completelly pointless. Our workshare will increase, the further we go with the PMF development, as simple as that.



DrSomnath999 said:


> Think logically if major design change does happens on FFGA then it would take further time for testing it's aerodynamic design on a new prototype
> & it would be technologically not feasible to build a same plane with 2 different looking platforms .



That's why we compromised on the same single seat config as Pak Fa today, that however doesn't mean that we have to use the same ammount of composites, since that doesn't change the design of the fighter, but replaces parts and can be done with any fighter. Even more important will be the integration of Indian cockpit avionics and EW sensors, since that are fields where we actually can contribute and that also have not much to do with the airframe design and therefor wouldn't need much changes.


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## ANPP

DrSomnath999 said:


> @sancho
> 
> I do think that HAL would have to make minimal design changes on the air frame even after signing the 2nd contract exclusively for indian
> FFGA .Because of the strict timelines of induction .
> 
> Think logically if major design change does happens on FFGA then it would take further time for testing it's aerodynamic design on a new prototype
> & it would be technologically not feasible to build a same plane with 2 different looking platforms .
> 
> Basically PAK-fa of russia or FFGA for india would have same design with minor structural changes eg 2 seater or some enhanced composities on it's airframe.
> 
> Avionics wise it might be different but structurally i dont beleive major design changes would be feasible economically & technologically
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*


 
I am also with you. Structural wise it won't be that much different from pakfa. IAF already show red eyes to HAL on low participation. 1st flight will be 2015, so design phase is completed by now.


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## sancho

Translated:



> *Russia until the end of the year will begin testing a new missile for fighter T-50*
> 
> Test aircraft missiles flying copies promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) T-50 will begin in the current year, the general director of "Corporation" Tactical Missiles "Boris Obnosov.
> "We showed the well-coordinated work, now it all depends on the technique. Field tests at landfills is not so easy to organize, but nevertheless, all charged to ensure that the job done efficiently and on time. This year the test will begin," - said Obnosov reporters on Saturday during a "Gidroaviasalon 2014" held in Gelendzhik.
> 
> According to him, work on weapons for future Russian fighter is going according to schedule. Portages reported that work on the creation of new aircraft missiles to fighter T-50 is scheduled for completion in 2016.



Россия до конца года начнет испытания новой ракеты для истребителя Т-50 - Интерфакс


There is also talk about upgraded T50 prototypes coming soon, will be interesting to see if there are visible changes or if they are internal only, but these prototypes should be pretty close to what the Russians will start inducting in 2016.


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## kurup

sancho said:


> Translated:
> 
> 
> 
> Россия до конца года начнет испытания новой ракеты для истребителя Т-50 - Интерфакс
> 
> 
> There is also talk about upgraded T50 prototypes coming soon, will be interesting to see if there are visible changes or if they are internal only, but these prototypes should be pretty close to what the Russians will start inducting in 2016.



I pray there be visual changes ...... especially underbelly ......


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## he-man

kurup said:


> I pray there be visual changes ...... especially underbelly ......



No chance of that really...........
But chances are that engine nozzles may undergo change,,,and that irst ball on the front too will be shielded.


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## kurup

he-man said:


> No chance of that really...........
> But chances are that engine nozzles may undergo change,,,and that irst ball on the front too will be shielded.



I know .... just dreaming ....


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## he-man

kurup said:


> I know .... just dreaming ....



Really man,,,that underbelly is plane horrible.
People defending it are typical fanboys.

Russians should have gone for s-ducts,pure and simple


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## kurup

he-man said:


> Really man,,,that underbelly is plane horrible.
> People defending it are typical fanboys.
> 
> Russians should have gone for s-ducts,pure and simple



Russians developed two 5G TDs in the past with S-duct and flat underbelly .

Yet they did not adopt it for T50 ..... there must be some reason for that .


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## ejaz007

*PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter*

*Latest Update:*

Russia still making hopeful noises about a production contract, but there’s reportedly lots of unhappiness on India’s side. Some of that is self-generated.

*Aug 30/14: Tension.* India isn’t pleased with the lack of response to its questions concerning the recent PAK-FA engine fire (q.v. June 10/14), NPO Saturn AL-41FI jet engine performance, Byelka AESA radar performance, the lack of permission for its pilots to fly the jet in Russia, and HAL’s low workshare. India’s lack of a firm development agreement is the 1-sentence argument for much of this situation, except for the engine fire question and HAL’s workshare.

HAL’s workshare has reportedly dropped from 25% to just 13%: tires, the VOR-DME basic navigation avionics, coolant for the radar, a laser designation pod and the head-up display. This list appears to justify analysis that HAL simply doesn’t yet have the capability to be a full partner in such a sophisticated aircraft, and may also be a function iof Indian dithering as Russia simply goes ahead and makes final decisions about the PAK-FA’s development..

Within HAL’s workshare, the Laser Designation pod itself is unlikely to come from India, but may be produced under license. Israel’s RAFAEL LITENING pods equip many Indian aircraft, including the SU-30MKI, but Eastern European and American pressure on Israel makes SU-50 integration tough to contemplate. Thales’ Damocles pod, which already equips Malaysia’s Su-30MKMs and would equip Indian Rafales, would be a more logical choice.

The real challenge here is twofold. One is the M-MRCA program, whose $10 billion cost growth really shrinks the overall room for PGF funding within India’s budgets. The related challenge is time, and “IAF sources told IHS Jane’s that this deadline [to begin Indian production in 2020 - 2021] would be missed by several years.” Sources: Daily Mail India, “India-Russia jet deal hits turbulence over ‘technical worries’ ” | IHS Jane’s Defence Weekly, “Indian Air Force unhappy at progress of PAK-FA fifth-gen fighter”.

PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter


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## he-man

kurup said:


> Russians developed two 5G TDs in the past with S-duct and flat underbelly .
> 
> Yet they did not adopt it for T50 ..... there must be some reason for that .



It was weight according to them.
Plus they say the space between the engines will give the plane more lift and make it more agile.

Whatever the reason wrt to stealth it sucks,,,as simple as that


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## sancho

kurup said:


> I pray there be visual changes ...... especially underbelly ......



There is no issue with the belly and the round engine coverings might go only with the new engine, otherwise the Russians would had done it from the start.


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## sancho

kurup said:


> Russians developed two 5G TDs in the past with S-duct and flat underbelly .
> 
> Yet they did not adopt it for T50 ..... there must be some reason for that .



The US also had 2 x 5th gen fighters as options:

The Boing X32 with flat belly, complete shaped airframe, shaped nozzles





And the LM X35 with rounded engine coverings, a lot of rounded parts at the belly and around the airframe, as well as normal nozzles





And we all know which one was chosen right?

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## he-man

sancho said:


> There is no issue with the belly and the round engine coverings might go only with the new engine, otherwise the Russians would had done it from the start.



There are lot of issues with underbelly,,,,no need to skirt the issue each time



sancho said:


> The US also had 2 x 5th gen fighters as options:
> 
> The Boing X32 with flat belly, complete shaped airframe, shaped nozzles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the LM X35 with rounded engine coverings, a lot of rounded parts at the belly and around the airframe, as well as normal nozzles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And we all know which one was chosen right?



Useless comparison...............pakfa underbelly is by far the worst in all the 5 th generations,,,,,and issue with the nozzles is their non saw tooth approach.

Flat nozzles are too costly and difficult plus it will provide only 2d thrust vectoring vs 3d for round ones and there will be some 10% loss of thrust too.So yeah i will pass that but underbelly is simply horrendous in pakfa


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Useless comparison...............pakfa underbelly is by far the worst in all the 5 th generations,,,,,and issue with the nozzles is their non saw tooth approach.



Not really, the only non shaped part of the "belly" are the engine coverings, which are not even painted for obvious reasons. And when you take a closer look at the F35 prototype you will also see that no saw tooths were available for the early TDs either. So it's just silly to claim that would be a problem of the T50, since it's just in TD stage as well and before knowing what the changes with the new engine actually will be.

You have the same problem again and again, getting into conclusions, that leads you into a lot of misconceptions.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Not really, the only non shaped part of the "belly" are the engine coverings, which are not even painted for obvious reasons. And when you take a closer look at the F35 prototype you will also see that no saw tooths were available for the early TDs either. So it's just silly to claim that would be a problem of the T50, since it's just in TD stage as well and before knowing what the changes with the new engine actually will be.
> 
> You have the same problem again and again, getting into conclusions, that leads you into a lot of misconceptions.



The problem is u are trying to be too smart when whole world knows,,,,there has been a proper analysis on air power australia by carlo who is a known flanker fan on this.

Its a fact that pakfa has by far the worst stealth and the reason is underbelly and the nozzles.Its frontal aspect stealth is good enough.

And there are multiple reports from indo-russia newspaper that quote the stealth at just .5 m2.

Still have problems/doubts??
Go to paralay.com

That too mentions .5 figure quoting the designer himself.

Now .5m2 is the average stealth according to russians and it still is far far worse than required for a dedicated stealth jet.
As usual u will ask for sources of my claim which i don't have,,,some things are just too obvious anyways.

Russians simply had to sacrifice stealth for agility as they lag in electronics,,,so they had to utilize the strengths that they can have hence this design.Had they got the same tech as usa/west we would have had s-ducts instead of straight ducts with stupid radar blocker which will never be as efficient.Everyone knows it,,certainly russians too


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## Hurter

This aircraft seems to be pretty good... PAF should consider buying this one as well in future.


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## he-man

Junaid B said:


> This aircraft seems to be pretty good... PAF should consider buying this one as well in future.



Are u for real??


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## Hurter

he-man said:


> Are u for real??


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Had they got the same tech as usa/west we would have had s-ducts instead of straight ducts with stupid radar blocker which will never be as efficient.Everyone knows it,,certainly russians too



See that's the typical BS you get yourself into, by not understanding even basics. The Boeing X32 has radar blockers, the NG YF23 was considered to have a lower RCS than the F22, without a so called flat belly, nor an S-Duct, the latest Japanese stealth fighter (developed by one of the most advanced industrial powers) will be developed with radar blockers too, the Gripen is known for a very low RCS => radar blockers, The F18SH => radar blockers...
So that's neither a Russian idea, nor does it mean that it's inefficient in reducing the RCS, that's simply a false conception of you and many people that simply have no clue of what they are talking.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> See that's the typical BS you get yourself into, by not understanding even basics. The Boeing X32 has radar blockers, the NG YF23 was considered to have a lower RCS than the F22, without a so called flat belly, nor an S-Duct, the latest Japanese stealth fighter (developed by one of the most advanced industrial powers) will be developed with radar blockers too, the Gripen is known for a very low RCS => radar blockers, The F18SH => radar blockers...
> So that's neither a Russian idea, nor does it mean that it's inefficient in reducing the RCS, that's simply a false conception of you and many people that simply have no clue of what they are talking.



Typical rant,,,its clear u did not even bother to read the philosophy of this design.
Anyone even attempting to say that blockers are better than s-duct is a biased fellow.Its not.

Regarding f-18,,its not designed as a 5 th gen stealth aircraft
Regarding yf-23.................it was not selected,who knows why??maybe due to blockers
Regarding japanese fighter.................its gonna be launched in 2028,,,and u are declaring it to be most advanced ever,,,,wow!!

And lastly,,stop deluding urself,,,pakfa has a declared rcs of .5 m2,,,good luck convincing anyone that its better than j-20 or f-35 in stealth........never mind f-22 for obvious reasons.

But as usual u will rant again and again based on useless points.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Anyone even attempting to say that blockers are better than s-duct is a biased fellow.Its not.



LOL, who said it's better? It is an efficient capability to hide the engine compressor from radar waves, that's the reason why Gripen and the F18SH uses it and why several different stealth fighters apart of the T50 don't need to use S-Ducts. So it shows that there are more than one way when it comes to reduce RCS and insisting that it isn't is the actual bias!

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## he-man

sancho said:


> LOL, who said it's better? It is an efficient capability to hide the engine compressor from radar waves, that's the reason why Gripen and the F18SH uses it and why several different stealth fighters apart of the T50 don't need to use S-Ducts. So it shows that there are more than one way when it comes to reduce RCS and insisting that it isn't is the actual bias!



Yes u are right that it does indeed work but we are talking in relative terms here.
Plus the s-ducts would have taken care of the underbelly too if designed properly but russians wanted more lift due to space between engines so it was a deliberate design,,,,they certainly know how to make s-ducts as they did in su-47 and yak-130

But its also a fact that ground radars will pick on the underbelly fairly quickly,,,i just hope they atleast smoothen out the 90 degree angles


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## kaykay

he-man said:


> Typical rant,,,its clear u did not even bother to read the philosophy of this design.
> Anyone even attempting to say that blockers are better than s-duct is a biased fellow.Its not.
> 
> Regarding f-18,,its not designed as a 5 th gen stealth aircraft
> Regarding yf-23.................it was not selected,who knows why??maybe due to blockers
> Regarding japanese fighter.................its gonna be launched in 2028,,,and u are declaring it to be most advanced ever,,,,wow!!
> 
> And lastly,,stop deluding urself,,,pakfa has a declared rcs of .5 m2,,,good luck convincing anyone that its better than j-20 or f-35 in stealth........never mind f-22 for obvious reasons.
> 
> But as usual u will rant again and again based on useless points.


AFAIK T-50(not pak fa) has average RCS(frontal+side) of 0.5 as stated while others are counted based on their frontal RCS(which is always less).

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## he-man

kaykay said:


> AFAIK Pak fa has complete RCS of 0.5 as stated while others are counted based on their frontal RCS(which is always less).



I mentioned that myself in above post.
But we must concede that phase 1 pakfa has many many shortcomings in stealth aspect


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## kaykay

he-man said:


> I mentioned that myself in above post.
> But we must concede that phase 1 pakfa has many many shortcomings in stealth aspect


Well yes to an extent Its a bit less stealthy but then Its agility and avionics are unmatched IMO. All set of new weapons for it too.


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## he-man

kaykay said:


> Well yes to an extent Its a bit less stealthy but then Its agility and avionics are unmatched IMO. All set of new weapons for it too.



Na.........come to think of it even rafale and ef have qwip based irst and they have had it for years now.
On the other hand su-35 irst has half the range and it twice as heavy.

Russians are behind the tech but i am hoping they get their act together this time for god's sake


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## kaykay

he-man said:


> Na.........come to think of it even rafale and ef have qwip based irst and they have had it for years now.
> On the other hand su-35 irst has half the range and it twice as heavy.
> 
> Russians are behind the tech but i am hoping they get their act together this time for god's sake


Its not gonna have Su35s IRST but a complete new one and probably most powerful one. In fact almost everything has been/gonna be developed completely new one for Pak Fa. Engines, Radars, irst, EW suite, Weapons( new long range aams), DAS system etc.


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## he-man

kaykay said:


> Its not gonna have Su35s IRST but a complete new one and probably most powerful one. In fact almost everything has been/gonna be developed completely new one for Pak Fa. Engines, Radars, First, EW suite, Weapons( new long range aams), DAS system etc.



Do u know who manufactures it??
Uomz which comes under rostec corporation.

The pods made by them were rejected by russians themselves in favour of dassault ones
So we might tone down the expectations a bit less.

But as i said i hope russians get their act together this time.

N036 aesa looks good


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## kurup

sancho said:


> There is no issue with the belly and the round engine coverings might go only with the new engine, otherwise the Russians would had done it from the start.





sancho said:


> The US also had 2 x 5th gen fighters as options:
> 
> The Boing X32 with flat belly, complete shaped airframe, shaped nozzles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the LM X35 with rounded engine coverings, a lot of rounded parts at the belly and around the airframe, as well as normal nozzles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And we all know which one was chosen right?



True ...... but the belly of F35 and YF-23 looks much cleaner when compared to that of T-50 .


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## C130

meh, i like Pak Fa/FGFA I think it strikes a nice balance of stealth,maneuverability,payload, and range 
Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy | Russia & India Report

article is keen to bring up super maneuverability compared to the F22/35, but can't you counter than with a super maneuverable SR-AAM with the radars/helmets nowadays you only need to look at your target and it slaves the missile seeker or something and boom you got lock on after launch

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## sancho

kurup said:


> True ...... but the belly of F35 and YF-23 looks much cleaner when compared to that of T-50 .



Does it?














(X35 and T50 tech demos)

The F35 is far away from having a clean design and has many rounded or protruding areas as well, contrary to other stealth fighter designs. The problem for the T50, is that people see the seperated part between the engines compared to the weapon bays of other fighters and conclude that it is worse, ignoring that even the T50 parts are shaped and not right angled, to divert radar waves. They might be more detectable at certain angles, but still are stealthy shaped. The YF23 also has no flat belly, but is designed with the same aim of increase the lift, just not to such a level as Russian fighter designs:






There are simply way too many misconception, based basically on hearsay about "flat bellys" or "S-Ducts", that makes people fall into conclusions and that although similar designs or tech features are used all over the world, by the most advanced aero companies. Strangely nobody doubts their capabilities, but when it comes to Sukhoi / Russia, it must be bad? That's too simple especially we still don't know so much of this tech demo version, let alone how the production versions, with finished design, propper coatings and materials will look like.

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## sancho

C130 said:


> article is keen to bring up super maneuverability compared to the F22/35, but can't you counter than with a super maneuverable SR-AAM with the radars/helmets nowadays you only need to look at your target and it slaves the missile seeker or something and boom you got lock on after launch



That works against non stealth fighters, since they are detectable to cue weapons on them, while even an F22 or F35 will find it very hard to detect an enemy stealth fighter, especially not at BVR range, or to cue weapons on them. The F22 will get HMS and HOBS missle now, while it's doubtful that the F35 will be able to carry IR missiles internally at all (at least with meaning full A2G or BVR AAM configs), which makes stealth fighter vs stealth fighter combats likely to be similar to older gen dogfights and when you are neither maneuverable, nor have credible self defence capabilities with SR missiles, you will have a problem.


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## ejaz007

*Indo-Russian Jet Program Finally Moves Forward*

*NEW DELHI* — India and Russia have finally sorted out all sticky issues that have been holding back an agreement on the Fifth Generational Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program, a Russian diplomat in India said, ending the opening chapter of a program expected to build 200 jets at a cost of $30 billion.

No Indian Defence Ministry official would confirm that all problems had been resolved, especially those related to workshare between the two countries.

But Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Vladimir Putin discussed the matter during a summit in Brazil in July,a source in the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) said. Both leaders agreed the FGFA deal should move forward, the source added.

In 2010, officials signed a preliminary design agreement between India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau to jointly produce the FGFA for use by both countries. A final accord, which will pave the way for production, has been pending because the Indian Air Force hasn’t approved the design and the manufacturers have not yet ironed out how much work each side does.

India has wanted to boost its workshare from 18 percent to more than 25 percent. Both countries have invested $295 million.

The Russian diplomat said India’s share will steadily increase to 40 percent as the Indian industry matures, especially with respect to incorporating sophisticated technology into the aircraft.

India and Russia will sign a final agreement on the program by year’s end, the MEA source said.

Russia reportedly has also agreed to the Indian Air Force’s demand that the jet be a two-seat design; the prototype is a one-seater.

HAL and Sukhoi Design Bureau have sorted the list of systems and subsystems that each side will supply, a HAL official said. According to the agreement, India and Russia will jointly develop the thrust vectoring system for the plane; HAL will supply the mission software and hardware in addition to the avionics suite of the aircraft.

India’s beyond visual range missile, the Astra, is being developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation, along with Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, which will be mounted on the FGFA, the Air Force official said.

The Sukhoi Design Bureau and HAL proposal for the jet is a derivative of the Russian T-50 aircraft, which is in the prototype stage.

The Indian Air Force expects to receive the first FGFA prototype by 2016 for user trials, followed by delivery of two more aircraft in 2018 and 2019. The FGFA is scheduled to get into production by 2021, the Air Force official added.

Four prototypes of the Russian T-50 aircraft have performed more than 300 test flights.

An Air Force official said that is because India entered the program at a late stage of development, which benefits the Russians. The Air Force “wanted to get involved in the FGFA from the drawing board stage and it appears the FGFA project is to finance the Russian FGFA project.”

The MEA official, however, said both countries benefit, adding that Putin and Modi reaffirmed that the project must move quickly as technical issues are sorted out between HAL and Sukhoi Design Bureau. ■

*Email: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com.

Indo-Russian Jet Program Finally Moves Forward | Defense News | defensenews.com*


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## trident2010

I thought that now IAF was going for single seat T-50. I don't think we can have a prototype of 2 seat FGFA by 2016.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Harisudan

Irrespective of the situation, the Relationship status quo and other critical parameters that pushes this deal forward, the bitter truth is that, India was added into the project to merely share the cost of funding the project only..This is what the Russians kept in house for us right from the beginning..
T-50 Project started way ahead of Indian Intervention into it and it all came down to this level now where the IAF wanted a decent amount of workshare in it right form the drawing board stage just as it entered into the project when the first prototype was already ready for taxi trials with all specs according to the Russian requirement and threat perception..
There is no such thing called as FGFA here..May be a T-50 Indian version with twin seat and few Indian Avionics and Mission computer..Just like the MKI deal, that is the bitter truth...
Where the IAF made themselves a bigger fools of them is that, Atleast for the MKI deal, we just bought the planes and upgraded it here with lower cost incurring, we never funded for building the Technology, failures in it, Trial runs etc, but with the FGFA deal the Russians made us do all that and yet they share close to 18% of workshare in the project but 50% cost share..??
I would like to share something here which I have came across somewhere,
*Quote:*
...
"New Delhi is particularly miffed with the fact that despite being an equal partner in the FGFA project in terms of financial contribution, Moscow is not keen to share technical details about its next generation stealth fighter PAK-FA, on which the Indian version of the combat jet will be based.

...
But much to the surprise of an Indian team present at the site, they were not allowed anywhere near the aircraft. India wanted to know the reasons for the fire but details were never shared, said sources. India has paid $295 million (Rs.1,785.19 crore) for the preliminary design, which was finalised last year, and it is only logical that Indian officials feel concerned about the status of the PAK-FA programme. The Indian side was not satisfied with the preliminary design and raised questions about maintenance issues, the engine, stealth features, weapon carriage system, safety and reliability. Sources said there could not be any progress until these issues were resolved.

But the queries remain unanswered even after a round of discussions between the two sides this month. The Russian side's common response to New Delhi's concerns has been: "Don't get emotional." Any further push on these issues results in talk of price escalation, sources said. For instance, the Indian Air Force had made it clear last year that it was not satisfied with the engine of the new fighter, which was based on the power plant for the Sukhoi-30. A change has been promised at an additional cost.

No Indian expert or pilot has had a long hard look at the PAK-FA jet to date. The Russians are not allowing Indian pilots to fly the aircraft, claiming foreign pilots are barred from flying in their airspace.."

Now I don't know whether to laugh or cry looking at the history of Mistakes committed By IAF be it LCA, be it MARUT, be it MMRCA, be it Mirage 2000 Upgrade, be it FGFA..
I'm speechless on looking at how these central auditing bodies such as CAG are letting go of this useless organisation called IAF...
I'm out of here.......


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## halupridol

Harisudan said:


> Irrespective of the situation, the Relationship status quo and other critical parameters that pushes this deal forward, the bitter truth is that, India was added into the project to merely share the cost of funding the project only..This is what the Russians kept in house for us right from the beginning..
> T-50 Project started way ahead of Indian Intervention into it and it all came down to this level now where the IAF wanted a decent amount of workshare in it right form the drawing board stage just as it entered into the project when the first prototype was already ready for taxi trials with all specs according to the Russian requirement and threat perception..
> There is no such thing called as FGFA here..May be a T-50 Indian version with twin seat and few Indian Avionics and Mission computer..Just like the MKI deal, that is the bitter truth...
> Where the IAF made themselves a bigger fools of them is that, Atleast for the MKI deal, we just bought the planes and upgraded it here with lower cost incurring, we never funded for building the Technology, failures in it, Trial runs etc, but with the FGFA deal the Russians made us do all that and yet they share close to 18% of workshare in the project but 50% cost share..??
> I would like to share something here which I have came across somewhere,
> *Quote:*
> ...
> "New Delhi is particularly miffed with the fact that despite being an equal partner in the FGFA project in terms of financial contribution, Moscow is not keen to share technical details about its next generation stealth fighter PAK-FA, on which the Indian version of the combat jet will be based.
> 
> ...
> But much to the surprise of an Indian team present at the site, they were not allowed anywhere near the aircraft. India wanted to know the reasons for the fire but details were never shared, said sources. India has paid $295 million (Rs.1,785.19 crore) for the preliminary design, which was finalised last year, and it is only logical that Indian officials feel concerned about the status of the PAK-FA programme. The Indian side was not satisfied with the preliminary design and raised questions about maintenance issues, the engine, stealth features, weapon carriage system, safety and reliability. Sources said there could not be any progress until these issues were resolved.
> 
> But the queries remain unanswered even after a round of discussions between the two sides this month. The Russian side's common response to New Delhi's concerns has been: "Don't get emotional." Any further push on these issues results in talk of price escalation, sources said. For instance, the Indian Air Force had made it clear last year that it was not satisfied with the engine of the new fighter, which was based on the power plant for the Sukhoi-30. A change has been promised at an additional cost.
> 
> No Indian expert or pilot has had a long hard look at the PAK-FA jet to date. The Russians are not allowing Indian pilots to fly the aircraft, claiming foreign pilots are barred from flying in their airspace.."
> 
> Now I don't know whether to laugh or cry looking at the history of Mistakes committed By IAF be it LCA, be it MARUT, be it MMRCA, be it Mirage 2000 Upgrade, be it FGFA..
> I'm speechless on looking at how these central auditing bodies such as CAG are letting go of this useless organisation called IAF...
> I'm out of here.......


bro, how is IAF to be blamed for the above? they dont negotiate deals.
if anyone is to be blamed,thn its our MoD.
n about MKI,,,what d hell HAL learnt,,let me guess,how to use a screw driver.
ps-making mki's in home doesnt neccesarily mean that cost were lowered,I think it was the otherway around,,,,@sancho can u plz shed some light on d matter.


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## Harisudan

halupridol said:


> n about MKI,,,what d hell HAL learnt,,let me guess,how to use a screw driver.
> ps-making mki's in home doesnt neccesarily mean that cost were lowered,I think it was the otherway around,,,


 
Halu pridol,
No, MKIs manufactured at home are somewhat cheaper..I din mean to say a whole lot cheaper but considerably cheaper by atleast 3 to 4 Million per aircraft if not more than that, comparing the terms such as freight, raw material cost differences inflation etc in India as well as Russia ..But also the quality of equipement we got is far better than the one procured form Russia..
Though we had to pay for each and every change that we made in the aircraft and also a premium charge of atleast 50% of the aircraft take away cost for every aircraft manufactured inside India excluding the Raw materials, but still it worked out to be far better for IAF and HAL..



halupridol said:


> how is IAF to be blamed for the above? they dont negotiate deals.
> if anyone is to be blamed,thn its our MoD.


IAF is to be blamed because, they were not holding on to our own Defence PSUs when they needed it the most, like Navy stood..Now look at navy, they can manufacture almost every naval asset including Subs in India, with or without foreign assistance that is what mattered the most..
Navy had to go for krivak class frigate just because of all our shipyards running on overtime due to huge orders, not because Krivak class are a class apart from our Shivalik class frigates..
Navy involved itself in the project during every stages of development, it fought with them, it disagreed with them and took them on a toss but finally it was with them and got the things it wanted..
Now we all know IAC 1 and 2 are at different stages of developments in our Shipyards, IAC 1 is definitely incorporating many foreign systems than IAC 2 and the navy made it that way..It didn't ask for 100% Indegenous ships in all aspects..It just wanted something that could do the job which could be built in our country when we wanted..Thats it..When DRDO and other PSU shipyards told them that, they can do the transmission in house for IAC 1, Navy immediately said, no thanks, lets go for assistance from experienced people such as Fincentiarari(I hope I din misspell it) that way they could sort out the problem in six months and move on to the next critical area..
What did the airforce do??I remember an Airmarshal's comment about HAL and IAF relationsship during Mid 2005 that "We hardly meet once in two years" I think It was Airmarshal Madeswaran stating it..
When a force couldn't involve itself in the development of a project in each and every stage of it but yet go for humongous deals with foreign aircraft companies just for upgrading 50 odd Used up Fighters, when the same fighters which are comparatively newer planes are available cheaper than the upgrades..

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## halupridol

Harisudan said:


> Halu pridol,
> No, MKIs manufactured at home are somewhat cheaper..I din mean to say a whole lot cheaper but considerably cheaper by atleast 3 to 4 Million per aircraft if not more than that, comparing the terms such as freight, raw material cost differences inflation etc in India as well as Russia ..But also the quality of equipement we got is far better than the one procured form Russia..
> Though we had to pay for each and every change that we made in the aircraft and also a premium charge of atleast 50% of the aircraft take away cost for every aircraft manufactured inside India excluding the Raw materials, but still it worked out to be far better for IAF and HAL..
> ..


 I dont think manufacturing MKI's domesticaly was aimed to bring down cost in the first place,,,its main aim was to help build industrial base n know how which in turn was supposed to contribute in developing an indigenous fighter.
now lets see d results,,,after making hundreds of MKIs,which is a top 4+ gen. fighter,,,,what do they have to show for it?
tejas??sitara??,,,I mean wth?in contrast look at our northern neighbours..


> IAF is to be because, they were not holding on to our own Defence PSUs when they needed it the most, like Navy stood..Now look at navy, they can manufacture almost every naval asset including Subs in India, with or without foreign assistance that is what mattered the most..
> Navy had to go for krivak class frigate just because of all our shipyards running on overtime due to huge orders, not because Krivak class are a class apart from our Shivalik class frigates..
> Navy involved itself in the project during every stages of development, it fought with them, it disagreed with them and took them on a toss but finally it was with them and got the things it wanted..
> Now we all know IAC 1 and 2 are at different stages of developments in our Shipyards, IAC 1 is definitely incorporating many foreign systems than IAC 2 and the navy made it that way..It didn't ask for 100% Indegenous ships in all aspects..It just wanted something that could do the job which could be built in our country when we wanted..Thats it..When DRDO and other PSU shipyards told them that, they can do the transmission in house for IAC 1, Navy immediately said, no thanks, lets go for assistance from experienced people such as Fincentiarari(I hope I din misspell it) that way they could sort out the problem in six months and move on to the next critical area..
> What did the airforce do??I remember an Airmarshal's comment about HAL and IAF relationsship during Mid 2005 that "We hardly meet once in two years" I think It was Airmarshal Madeswaran stating it..
> When a force couldn't involve itself in the development of a project in each and every stage of it but yet go for humongous deals with foreign aircraft companies just for upgrading 50 odd Used up Fighters, when the same fighters which are comparatively newer planes are available cheaper than the upgrades..


 here I agree with u,,,,there is a disconnect between the intended end user n hal....
IAF shud have emulated the IN,which they didnt or cudnt(hal themselves seem reluctant of for such agreement).


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## Harisudan

halupridol said:


> I dont think manufacturing MKI's domesticaly was aimed to bring down cost in the first place,,,its main aim was to help build industrial base n know how which in turn was supposed to contribute in developing an indigenous fighter.
> now lets see d results,,,after making hundreds of MKIs,which is a top 4+ gen. fighter,,,,what do they have to show for it?
> tejas??sitara??,,,I mean wth?in contrast look at our northern neighbours..


 The main intention was not to bring down cost but as you said to create a manufacturing line in India and to familiarise on incorporating Indian made equipments in substitute to that of Russian ones..
They were also not inteneded to be taken as a Tech know how transfer or some case like that..
MKI's sole purpose indianisation is to make sure that the spares are available and there are no cost over runs during times of crisis and also to make the upgrades easier and customisation easier..


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## PARIKRAMA

Certainly the esteemed members had pointed things correctly but there needs to be few delicate things clear. the MKI program initially is like assembling from SKD kits(sumthing similar to assembling an imported car). it was good as we got first hand experience of complex war machines and tried to do some localisation which reduces dependency for spares abroad. its a very slow process as lots of know and assimilation of tech know how and knowledge versus industrial capability coming up is never linear.
on the other hand, this process meant when it comes to crucial tech like Engines we are still more on beginner tech level. A conformation for this is the fact that kaveri engine even though is good for UAVs but is still not capable enough for any aircrafts even LCAs.

I do think India should have just followed the MKI route for FGFA and invested the money for more sophisticated LCA MKIII may be fully stealth version or may be an AMCA project. We may not accept but fact is our industry is still not mature enough to handle say 50% work share for a behemoth project like FGFA.. suppose we had say a full fledged capability like say engine design, development, testing and production with live usage in our own jets then it wud have made sense for us to ask for such a work share. Even if we insist that we should get work share since we "paid"for it, we will only see more delays and missing of targeted deadlines as we will need first the industrial capability to execute such a work share. the capability does not come from HAL alone but rather a complex industrial zone which can provide HAL with all its requirements in a timely manner.

WE can always say russians squeezed us, but we have to first accept that we were not adequate to begin with.if we were then we would have accepted a proper JVs with say snecma long back for engines. just my thots really.. btw the snail pace with which our decision making goes, we cant even do 15% workshare leave 50%.

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## sancho

halupridol said:


> I dont think manufacturing MKI's domesticaly was aimed to bring down cost in the first place,,,its main aim was to help build industrial base n know how which in turn was supposed to contribute in developing an indigenous fighter.
> now lets see d results,,,after making hundreds of MKIs,which is a top 4+ gen. fighter,,,,what do they have to show for it?
> tejas??sitara??,,,I mean wth?in contrast look at our northern neighbours..
> 
> here I agree with u,,,,there is a disconnect between the intended end user n hal....
> IAF shud have emulated the IN,which they didnt or cudnt(hal themselves seem reluctant of for such agreement).



Licence production only means, you learn how to use certain techs and materials, not how to develop them, that's why the licence production of fighters at HAL, doesn't make them automatically able to develop fighters too or engines too. It also is important to keep in mind what kind of techs will be transfered, which in MKIs case was pretty basic and mainly for airframe and engine parts. M-MRCA is aimed to not only increase the ToT of MKI, but also to get more critical techs. However, these are licence productions, while FGFA is a joint development in the same manner as the Brahmos development!

- Brahmos / FGFA are co-owned and joined developments
- Brahmos / FGFA are based on Russian airframe and propulsion, with minor Indian contribution in the early stages
- Brahmos / FGFA will jointly be marketed for exports
- Brahmos / FGFA gives India the chance to get Russian high techs and modify them according to our needs (anti ship, land attack, land based, sub and air launched varients), with increasing Indian contribution during the project
- Brahmos / FGFA will set the base for further developments (Brahmos1 => Brahmos M => Hypersonic Brahmos, FGFA early version => twin seat FGFA => 6th gen fighter???) 
- Brahmos / FGFA offer India techs and systems that we can't develop on our own for several years


Btw, HAL is not the developer of LCA, they are only the manufacturer. DRDO is the developer and ADA the designer of HAL, so problems in the design and development can't be blamed at HAL!
The disconnect between the operator and the developer are often criticized by the IAF and IN, because that's not what they want but mainly what DRDO wants. Be it LCA, AMCA, or AWACS India, DRDO doesn't ask IAF if they want these developments, only what specs such a project should have and if they got the specs, they don't even include the forces in the development, but provide the "developed" product to them only for certification. That's also why IN badly criticized DRDO for the N-LCA development, but when you have a organisation that has a monopoly in nearly every field of defence developments in India, without taking them accountable for their work, it's not that surprising that they act on their own accord and interests.

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## kaykay

Russia's fifth-generation fighter receives first sets of new electronic warfare system | Russia & India Report

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## RKO

Sure im not going see this aircraft in india, not in this decade.. For amca should i say 2040


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## Krate M

In December Putin is visiting India and their ambassador has started to make kind of statements which imply a lot of defense deals are going to be on the table. Till then best approach is wait and watch.


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Btw, HAL is not the developer of LCA, they are only the manufacturer. DRDO is the developer and ADA the designer of HAL, so problems in the design and development can't be blamed at HAL!



REeee COGNIZE!!!!!!!! good to hear these words, (not absolving anyone of their failures) But I fully agree with your views here......

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## The Unnamed

sandy_3126 said:


> REeee COGNIZE!!!!!!!! good to hear these words, (not absolving anyone of their failures) But I fully agree with your views here......



EVERYBODY knows it. What did that do ? The idea is to keep LCA a failure. What did ANYONE do about it ? HAL and ADL and DRDO were not short of land, cash, lavish quarters in prime bangalore, government privileges ???? Is THAT not the only problem ?


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> REeee COGNIZE!!!!!!!! good to hear these words, (not absolving anyone of their failures) But I fully agree with your views here......



I always seperate where credit or criticism is due and at LCA too many confuse the name "HAL LCA Tejas" with responsibility of HAL. But more interesting would be more infos on HAL's contribution to FGFA, any chance that you can shed some light on that?


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> I always seperate where credit or criticism is due and at LCA too many confuse the name "HAL LCA Tejas" with responsibility of HAL. But more interesting would be more infos on HAL's contribution to FGFA, any chance that you can shed some light on that?


Right now, I have no info on that.... may be in a month or so...

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## Ankur Gupta

*IAF grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet, Safety Checks on *

*





*​नई दिल्ली। भारत ने अपने फाइटर प्लेन सुखोई-30 की उड़ान पर रोक लगा दी है। हाल ही में पुणे के पास हुए प्लेन क्रेश के बाद ही यह फैसला लिया गया है। सुखोई-30 विमानों की तकनीकी जांच की जाएगी। सूखोई-30 के 200 विमानों के बेड़े को तकनीकी जांच करके क्लिनचिट मिलने के बाद उड़ान के लिए हरी झंडी दिखाई जाएगी। 

भारतीय वायुसेना ने बताया कि हाल ही में पुणे में हुए विमान हादसे के बाद बेड़े की उड़ान रोक दी गई है और इसकी जांच की जा रही है। यह पड़ताल के बाद ही उड़ान भर पाएगा। उन्होंने यह नहीं बताया कि किन तकनीकी पहलुओं की जांच की जा रही है। देश के पास मौजूद लड़ाकू विमानों के बेड़े का लगभग एक-तिहाई हिस्सा सुखोई-30 का है।

पिछले हफ्ते एक सुखोई-30 एमकेआई पुणे के नजदीक दुर्घटनाग्रस्त हो गया था और शुरूआती जांच में पता चला कि यह हादसा मानवीय गलती के चलते नहीं, बल्कि फ्लाई-बाई तार प्रणाली में समस्या के चलते हुआ था। भारतीय वायु सेना ने प्रेस को जारी एक बयान में पायलटों विंग कमांडर एस मुंजे और फ्लाइंग ऑफिसर अनूप सिंह की भूमिका पर उंगली उठाई थी। साथ ही बताया कि सुखोई30 एमकेआई विमान दुर्घटना की जांच की जा रही है। हादसे के असल कारण के बारे में जानने के लिए कोर्ट ऑफ इंक्वायरी चल रही है। संयोगवश दो पायलटों में से एक पहले हुए एक सुखोई-30 हादसे से भी जुड़े हैं। 

पहले भी हादसों के शिकार हुए सुखोई
साल 2009 से यह पांचवां सुखोई 30 एमकेआई हादसा है और बेड़े को पहले भी कम-से-कम दो बार उड़ान भरने से रोका जा चुका है। - See more at: patrika


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## hawk11

सुंदर

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## IndoUS

hawk11 said:


> सुंदर


That is fake mate, FGFA can't land on ACC


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## hawk11

IndoUS said:


> That is fake mate, FGFA can't land on ACC


मय्बे इतस अ नवल वर्शन


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## C130

if you all didn't hear Chinese got some kinda super passive radar no point in continuing with the Pak Fa/FGFA

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## illuminatidinesh

> if you all didn't hear Chinese got some kinda super passive radar no point in continuing with the Pak Fa/FGFA
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 143


Oh no dooms day.....


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## kurup

hawk11 said:


> मय्बे इतस अ नवल वर्शन



Ofcourse there will be a naval version with STOBAR capabilities .

But that picture you posted is a PS .


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## sancho

hawk11 said:


> सुंदर



Nice PS, would love to see them on future Indian carriers, but IN might have different aims. Here is the original pic:

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## ejaz007

*India's Delayed FGFA Deal May Get The Focus During Putin’s India Visit*

India and Russia may finally settle on a number of delayed defense deals including the* Fifth Generational Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)* program during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India this December.Putin met with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during the BRICS summit in July where both leaders reportedly agreed that the $30 billion program to build 200 jets should move forward.In 2010, a preliminary design agreement was signed between India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and *Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau* to jointly produce the *FGFA* for use by both countries. 

However, a final agreement is still pending because the Indian Air Force hasn’t approved the design and workload between both companies is still under debate.

Sukhoi and India plan to sign another contract in the framework of the joint project for the construction of a fifth generation multipurpose combat jet, Alexander Klementyev, a Sukhoi deputy director general said. 

“We hope the contract [for experimental design works] will be signed soon,” he was quoted as saying.




*Fifth Generational Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)*

Meanwhile, joint productions of all future projects is expected to be the new norm in *Indo-Russian relations* after Moscow last year offered to set up manufacturing facilities in the country for joint production of defence hardware in emerged earlier this year.The two countries are reportedly on the brink of signing various new defence deals this year such as the contract to integrate the *Brahmos cruise missile aboard the multifunctional fighter Su-30MKI*, the joint development of the *Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA)*, a $471 million contract to supply *Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles* to the Indian army and a $ 3 billion deal to procure 42 new* Su–30 MKI combat aircraft* and* 71 Mi–17V5 medium-lift helicopters*.Technology transfer issues will also figure in the talks. Russia has been unwilling to provide technology transfer of the *Smerch multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS) *to India.


India's Delayed FGFA Deal May Get The Focus During Putin’s India Visit | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*The system will increase the combat effectiveness and survivability of the aircraft*

_KRET delivered the first batch of innovative systems of Himalaya electronic warfare (EW) for the next-generation frontline aircraft system__(PAK FA) T-50__. It improves noise immunity and combat survivability of the aircraft and significantly neutralizes the effect of technologies for reduction of visibility of enemy aircraft._

Himalaya system is so integrated in the aircraft system that it performs the function of so-called "smart skin".

Himalaya EW systems for T-50 were developed by Kaluga Research Radio Engineering Institute (KNIRTI) and manufactured by another company of the Group - Stavropol Radioplant “Signal”. This unique aircraft system is a key element of the fifth-generation fighter jet, which will reduce the overall weight of the aircraft and increase its survivability and combat effectiveness.

Electronics for the PAK FA are developed by the V.V. Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design. Specialists of the Institute are currently working on designing the avionic system (radar system) for PAK FA with active phased arrays (APAR).

The new radar system has 1526 transmit-receive modules, which provides the aircraft with a greater detection range, multi-channel target tracking and use of missile weapons.

PAK FA is Russia's fifth-generation multirole fighter jet. The use of composite materials and innovative technologies, aerodynamic configuration of aircraft, engine characteristics provide an unprecedentedly low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility. This allows to significantly enhance its combat effectiveness for both air and ground targets at any time of day or night and in any weather conditions.

Recently, Russia has been conducting test flights of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft. According to the current plan, the supplies of the fighter jet to the armed forces will begin in 2016.

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## trident2010

IAF should get 3-4 squadrons of T-50 straight away as RuAF is getting. Induct FGFA when it is ready. It will give required push to IAF to achieve air dominance in the region.

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## Badbadman

When is the first prototype gonna land in India, I thought was this year.
Send some chills in the neighbourhood


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## thesolar65

Badbadman said:


> When is the first prototype gonna land in India, I thought was this year.
> Send some chills in the neighbourhood



Putin is going to ride in with the prototype to India during his visit!!


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## sancho

DarkElf said:


> I'm still confused about FGFA/PAK-FA.
> 
> 1. Is both the same project with different name, or FGFA is derivative from PAK-FA based on India requirement?
> 
> 2. If Indonesia buy PAK-FA from Russia, will India get monetary benefit (from part manufacture, IP right, etc)? If not, can India independently sold FGFA to foreign buyer, competing with PAK-FA sales?



Pak Fa, Russian fighter according to their requirements. FGFA, jointly developed with more Indian requirements and jointly owned. If FGFA is sold we benefit, if Pak Fa is, we don't, just as we benefit if Brahmos is soled, but won't if the Yakhont P800 is.

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## DarkElf

sancho said:


> Pak Fa, Russian fighter according to their requirements. FGFA, jointly developed with more Indian requirements and jointly owned. If FGFA is sold we benefit, if Pak Fa is, we don't, just as we benefit if Brahmos is soled, but won't if the Yakhont P800 is.



Ahh thanks. Another question can India compete with Russia to sold FGFA to foreign buyer? For example if Indonesia open tender looking to buy 5'th gen fighter, can India compete with Russia to supply Indonesia?


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## sancho

DarkElf said:


> Ahh thanks. Another question can India compete with Russia to sold FGFA to foreign buyer? For example if Indonesia open tender looking to buy 5'th gen fighter, can India compete with Russia to supply Indonesia?



No, in any case Russia is the lead partner of the project. But you only need to look at the difference of exports of Su 30 after India bought it and the Su 35 / 34s and you know which fighter has more export potential.


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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> Pak Fa, Russian fighter according to their requirements. FGFA, jointly developed with more Indian requirements and jointly owned. If FGFA is sold we benefit, if Pak Fa is, we don't, just as we benefit if Brahmos is soled, but won't if the Yakhont P800 is.


So when we talk of work share percentage it is purely on FGFA? We don't have nothing to do with PAKFA ?even for the second batch with new engine? What about IP?


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> So when we talk of work share percentage it is purely on FGFA? We don't have nothing to do with PAKFA ?even for the second batch with new engine? What about IP?



Yes our share is limited to our version, the 2nd batch Pak Fa will however be pretty much the same with out FGFA, both single seat, both with the new engines and other modifcations. But until the next set of contracts is done, we don't know what Indian parts FGFA will have and if the some of them will be included into the 2nd Pak Fa too.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Yes our share is limited to our version, the 2nd batch Pak Fa will however be pretty much the same with out FGFA, both single seat, both with the new engines and other modifcations. But until the next set of contracts is done, we don't know what Indian parts FGFA will have and if the some of them will be included into the 2nd Pak Fa too.



Essentially the FGFA is nothing more than the T-50I. So it would benefit the program if India simply takes deliveries of the standard Russian PAK-FA(just as it did with the Su-30MK) and then moves onto the "Indian" version. Would speed up training and logistics.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Essentially the FGFA is nothing more than the T-50I. So it would benefit the program if India simply takes deliveries of the standard Russian PAK-FA(just as it did with the Su-30MK) and then moves onto the "Indian" version. Would speed up training and logistics.



By the same logic, it would had been faster for us to simply buy the Yakhont P800, but then would we be able to customize it according to our needs with upgrades modifications developed in India and add it to any application we want? No, because Russia is the sole owner of that missile and we will be only an export customer that might be able to demand some minor modifications made by Russia, but remains to be dependent on them to a large extend. Not to mention that we won't get benefits from the exports and had to re-negotiate on the price for every follow order.
Brahmos on the other hand might be based on the Russian missile, but we have the freedom to produce, customize, upgrade and fit it to any application we want. Surely we will use Russian help and they get benefits from it too, but we are not dependent on them and the same goes for FGFA.

Btw, I would rather say that the 2nd Pak Fa batch is more like the Su 30SM, which is a varient of our MKI, since the baseline fighter is developed according to our requirements and the Russians just replaced the foreign systems.

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## ptltejas




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## sancho

> *TRV completed testing Kh-58USHK for the PAK FA*
> 
> Corporation "Tactical Missiles" (TEV) completes the state tests Kh-58USHK vnutrifyuzelyazhnyh placement. The missile is designed to equip the Russian perspective complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA), according to the Military Industrial Courier. As told to the international air show in China CEO Boris Obnosov TRV: "This is absolutely the latest product that has nothing to do with the old X-58, except for the index: it is twice shorter than the X-58 is equipped with a completely different homing. Just now finishing its state tests, including test launches with prototypes of T-50. " According to the head of the corporation, the PAK FA "is the only Russian platform, equipped with anti-radar missiles vnutrifyuzelyazhnyh placement." But it can be mounted on the external hardpoints, said Obnosov.Takzhe Corporation successfully continues to work on the X-74m2 - another new missile, "designed to equip fighter T-50 in the first step," he said. "On the PAK FA will be completely new weapons, - said CEO TRV. - We present here only our new missiles, but not all.


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## trident2010

sancho said:


> View attachment 151139



What is its range?


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> What is its range?



According to manufacturer homepage:



> *from under wing suspension points, km 76 to 245*



Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC

But from the internal weapon bays, the aim should be to get closer to give low reaction time for the target and not to launch at maximum range.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> According to manufacturer homepage:
> 
> 
> 
> Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC
> 
> But from the internal weapon bays, the aim should be to get closer to give low reaction time for the target and not to launch at maximum range.



Any info on seeker??
They were making some aesa seekers??


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## DrSomnath999

*We plan to create a deck version of the T-50*

October 27th, 2:17
The Navy plans to use Russian on the future of the new Russian aircraft carrier deck version of the Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA project), said October 25, 2014 on the radio station "Echo of Moscow" Deputy Commander of the Russian Navy armament, Rear Admiral Victor Bursuc. 

"The development of the fleet provided by the program of shipbuilding. It - Decked Su and MiG. It is planned and further development of the T-50 (in the deck version)" - said Rear Adm. 

According to Mr. Bursuc, the fleet will get a new aircraft carrier after 2030 year.

bmpd - Планируется создание палубного варианта Т-50


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## ptltejas

DrSomnath999 said:


> *We plan to create a deck version of the T-50*
> 
> October 27th, 2:17
> The Navy plans to use Russian on the future of the new Russian aircraft carrier deck version of the Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA project), said October 25, 2014 on the radio station "Echo of Moscow" Deputy Commander of the Russian Navy armament, Rear Admiral Victor Bursuc.
> 
> "The development of the fleet provided by the program of shipbuilding. It - Decked Su and MiG. It is planned and further development of the T-50 (in the deck version)" - said Rear Adm.
> 
> According to Mr. Bursuc, the fleet will get a new aircraft carrier after 2030 year.
> 
> bmpd - Планируется создание палубного варианта Т-50


Whats your view to also go for search for 6th generation system in the Consideration, plz go on wikepedia and day what can be added of sixth generation, the six gen will include the Laser Starwars?


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## DrSomnath999

@ptltejas

US is the only country at the moment secretly developing 6th gen fighter plane at the moment
new capabilties would be introduced in those platforms like Directional energy systems ,plus smart skin concept 
etc...etc .!!!

but whether it is manned /unmanned i cant say

But UCAVs is the future of aviation buddy !!

*CHEERS*


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## ptltejas

DrSomnath999 said:


> @ptltejas
> 
> US is the only country at the moment secretly developing 6th gen fighter plane at the moment
> new capabilties would be introduced in those platforms like Directional energy systems ,plus smart skin concept
> etc...etc .!!!
> 
> but whether it is manned /unmanned i cant say
> 
> But UCAVs is the future of aviation buddy !!
> 
> *CHEERS*


In case EYE will found the such UCAV; EYE means (Visible, Radar, Infrared etc.), Sixth gen war states of Laser War, once you seen second you will be destroyed. Laser weapons would give some extra change if Starlite (see wiki) like material will be used so save from laser. plz see wiki Japan, is on it, France says jump directly on sixth instead fifth.


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## sancho



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## narcon

DrSomnath999 said:


> @ptltejas
> 
> US is the only country at the moment secretly developing 6th gen fighter plane at the moment
> new capabilties would be introduced in those platforms like Directional energy systems ,plus smart skin concept
> etc...etc .!!!
> 
> but whether it is manned /unmanned i cant say
> 
> But UCAVs is the future of aviation buddy !!
> 
> *CHEERS*



Correct!
US has a clandestine program, and its producing an unmanned fighter which will ram itself against the high value target, fully loaded with deadly load (Nuke or conventional) within 2 hours, be it in any part of the world!!!

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## he-man

*Salut” successfully completes research and development of the new generation pyrolitic graphite based sealing components for prospective gas-turbine engines*


*The specialists of scientific-research engine building institute (“NIID” affiliate of FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut”) have completed the research for development of experimental process for production of submicron/nanoscale pyrolitic graphite based composite materials for prospective gas-turbine engines' sealing components.*

*The new technology facilitates improvement of operation and endurance characteristics of prospective gas-turbine engines as a result of employment of submicron/nanoscale pyrolitic graphite based composite materials with increased physical-mechanical properties in tribotechnical assemblies.*

*Presently, the affiliate institute's specialists in cooperation with OOO “Virial” have developed the experimental process of chemical vapor deposition of submicron/nanoscale isotropic pyrolitic graphite (IPG) based composite materials for production of the experimental batch of radial-face contact sealing components. Three sets of specimen IPG radial-face contact seals for the high-pressure compressor's frontal support have been produced. The specimens are being tested on AL-31F engine.*

*Employment of new materials for contact sealing components is required for ensuring reliability of aviation gas-turbine engines with oil chambers sealing, as well as the new generation engines with increased pressure gradients along the chambers' sealing, temperatures and engine life.*
*FEDERAL STATE UNITARY ENTERPRISE «GAS-TURBINE ENGINEERING RESEARCH AND PRODUCTION CENTER «SALUT» | NEWS | NEWS | “Salut” successfully completes research and development of the new generation pyrolitic graphite based sealing components for prospective gas-turbine engines*

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## sathya

Mate , reduce the font size..


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## he-man

sathya said:


> Mate , reduce the font size..



yeah,that russian site is too bad,seriously.


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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> *Salut” successfully completes research and development of the new generation pyrolitic graphite based sealing components for prospective gas-turbine engines*
> 
> 
> *The specialists of scientific-research engine building institute (“NIID” affiliate of FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut”) have completed the research for development of experimental process for production of submicron/nanoscale pyrolitic graphite based composite materials for prospective gas-turbine engines' sealing components.*
> 
> *The new technology facilitates improvement of operation and endurance characteristics of prospective gas-turbine engines as a result of employment of submicron/nanoscale pyrolitic graphite based composite materials with increased physical-mechanical properties in tribotechnical assemblies.*
> 
> *Presently, the affiliate institute's specialists in cooperation with OOO “Virial” have developed the experimental process of chemical vapor deposition of submicron/nanoscale isotropic pyrolitic graphite (IPG) based composite materials for production of the experimental batch of radial-face contact sealing components. Three sets of specimen IPG radial-face contact seals for the high-pressure compressor's frontal support have been produced. The specimens are being tested on AL-31F engine.*
> 
> *Employment of new materials for contact sealing components is required for ensuring reliability of aviation gas-turbine engines with oil chambers sealing, as well as the new generation engines with increased pressure gradients along the chambers' sealing, temperatures and engine life.*
> *FEDERAL STATE UNITARY ENTERPRISE «GAS-TURBINE ENGINEERING RESEARCH AND PRODUCTION CENTER «SALUT» | NEWS | NEWS | “Salut” successfully completes research and development of the new generation pyrolitic graphite based sealing components for prospective gas-turbine engines*



Great news

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## he-man

Good possibility it jill increase the service life by a good amount


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## he-man

KRET is developing a nanophotonics radar

The technology can help improve “smart skin” for aircraft

_A new project has been launched in Russia to create fundamentally new radar technology based on nanophotonics. The main objective of the project is creating elements of active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar using nanophotonics. _

The project is being implemented jointly by the Fund for Advanced Studies and KRET. Both sides signed an agreement on implementing the advanced scientific and technological project entitled, “Development of an active phased array radar based on radiophotonics.”

The project includes the creation of a new, specialized laboratory and the development of universal technology that will serve as the basis for next-generation radar and electronic warfare systems. Investment in the project will amount to 680 million rubles.

“Nanophotonics is a promising area of research that will soon define the direction of development of dual-use technology in the developed world,” said Nikolai Kolesov.

According to him, the development of this technology by 2020 will allow for the creation in Russia of advanced transceiver devices, radar systems, and electronic intelligence and countermeasure systems.

A laboratory will be opened at KRET using the latest technology from a range of KRET enterprises: Phazotron-NIIR, RPKB, GRPZ, KNIRTI, Ekran, and others. All conditions necessary for conducting scientific research will be established at this laboratory, including a cleanroom, where dust, microorganisms, and chemical vapors are reduced to minimal levels.

Dmitry Zaitsev, Doctor of Technical Sciences and Deputy General Designer of Scientific Developments for Phazotron-NIIR, has been appointed scientific director of the laboratory.

_One of the main directives of the project is to develop and manufacture a next-generation active electronically scanned array radar based on the principles of radiophotonics. This will reduce the weight of the equipment 1.5 to 3 times while increasing its reliability 2 to 3 times, as well as improving the scanning speed and resolution of the radar dozens of times over._

If successful, the technology will open up new possibilities for improving the “smart skin” used on the latest generation of Russian helicopters and other aircraft. By embedding the radar system throughout the entire area of the aircraft fuselage the crew can at any time look at a coherent 360-degree radar picture. The antenna system can work in both active and passive settings to protect against all kinds of interference, transmit both secret and interference data both to the ground and to other aircraft, and serve as a state identification system, among other uses.

Using these new materials and elements based on the principles of photonics, KRET has perfected advanced technology of high-power photodetectors and laser modules for semiconductors.

KRET has already widely used active electronically scanned array technology in creating airborne radar systems for modern fighter jets. Currently, KRET has created radar for the MiG-35 “Zhuk-AE” FGA and the FGA 35 with AESA. This technology allows these aircraft to track a large number of targets simultaneously by controlling the position of the electronic beam. The system can detect and target the enemy on water, land, and air, while also recognizing its class, type, and size, and solving all navigational issues and directing precision weapons.
KRET :: Media :: KRET is developing a nanophotonics radar

Most probably the future pakfa/fgfa radar

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## Ceylal

Can’t keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia


Tuesday, November 25, 2014

By : TNN




Ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, India has told Russia to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to seal the futuristic project by next year.





NEW DELHI: Ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, India has told Russia to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to seal the futuristic project by next year. 

The plan till now was that India would begin inducting the stealth fighters only 94 months — at the earliest — after the two countries inked the final design and R&D contract, which itself has already been delayed by over two years by now. 

"Russia has now been told that India cannot wait for a decade to get the FGFA. The delivery schedules should be compressed instead of IAF waiting for the FGFA till 2024-2025. The Russians will probably respond during Putin's visit," a defence ministry source said on Monday.

As was first reported by TOI, India is already upset with Russia for not giving its experts "full technological access" to the FGFA project despite being an equal funding partner. The final design contract, which is yet to be inked after missing the mid-2012 deadline, envisages the two countries chipping in with $5.5 billion each towards designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing. 

With the 127 single-seat FGFA that IAF wants costing extra, India will spend around $25 billion on the entire project. India had already spent $295 million on it after inking the preliminary design contract with Russia in December 2010. 

The Indian "perspective multirole fighter" is to be based on the under development Russian FGFA called PAK-FA or Sukhoi T-50, which undertook its first flight-test in January 2010, but will be tweaked to IAF's requirements.

As per the initial plan, with Indian scientists and experts also being based in Russia, the Ozar facility of Hindustan Aeronautics in Nashik was to get three FGFA prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019 for test-flying by IAF pilots. The final production was to begin only around 2022. All these timelines, of course, have gone awry with the final design contract yet to be sealed.

With IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, alarm bells have finally begun to clang loudly in the Indian defence establishment over the long delays in all its three fighter induction projects. 

The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, first approved in 1983, for instance, will get final operational clearance only by mid-2015. But IAF will get what it actually wants, the four Tejas Mark-II squadrons, from 2022 onwards.

Negotiations for the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters, too, are stuck with France yet to accept full responsibility for the 108 of the jets to be produced in India. "MoD wants at least two of the three projects (FGFA, LCA and MMRCA) to be speeded up," said a source.


----------



## he-man

Ceylal said:


> Can’t keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia
> 
> 
> Tuesday, November 25, 2014
> 
> By : TNN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, India has told Russia to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to seal the futuristic project by next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: Ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, India has told Russia to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to seal the futuristic project by next year.
> 
> The plan till now was that India would begin inducting the stealth fighters only 94 months — at the earliest — after the two countries inked the final design and R&D contract, which itself has already been delayed by over two years by now.
> 
> "Russia has now been told that India cannot wait for a decade to get the FGFA. The delivery schedules should be compressed instead of IAF waiting for the FGFA till 2024-2025. The Russians will probably respond during Putin's visit," a defence ministry source said on Monday.
> 
> As was first reported by TOI, India is already upset with Russia for not giving its experts "full technological access" to the FGFA project despite being an equal funding partner. The final design contract, which is yet to be inked after missing the mid-2012 deadline, envisages the two countries chipping in with $5.5 billion each towards designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing.
> 
> With the 127 single-seat FGFA that IAF wants costing extra, India will spend around $25 billion on the entire project. India had already spent $295 million on it after inking the preliminary design contract with Russia in December 2010.
> 
> The Indian "perspective multirole fighter" is to be based on the under development Russian FGFA called PAK-FA or Sukhoi T-50, which undertook its first flight-test in January 2010, but will be tweaked to IAF's requirements.
> 
> As per the initial plan, with Indian scientists and experts also being based in Russia, the Ozar facility of Hindustan Aeronautics in Nashik was to get three FGFA prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019 for test-flying by IAF pilots. The final production was to begin only around 2022. All these timelines, of course, have gone awry with the final design contract yet to be sealed.
> 
> With IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, alarm bells have finally begun to clang loudly in the Indian defence establishment over the long delays in all its three fighter induction projects.
> 
> The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, first approved in 1983, for instance, will get final operational clearance only by mid-2015. But IAF will get what it actually wants, the four Tejas Mark-II squadrons, from 2022 onwards.
> 
> Negotiations for the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters, too, are stuck with France yet to accept full responsibility for the 108 of the jets to be produced in India. "MoD wants at least two of the three projects (FGFA, LCA and MMRCA) to be speeded up," said a source.




Pressure tactics..............nothing more,nothing less.

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## Ceylal

he-man said:


> Pressure tactics..............nothing more,nothing less.


Algeria does the same...
Russians drag their feet a lot, they haven't got rid off their cold war modus operandi ..Algeria is waiting too for the PAK-FA. The first SU-34 are slated for reception in a couple month.


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## he-man

Ceylal said:


> Algeria does the same...
> Russians drag their feet a lot, they haven't got rid off their cold war modus operandi ..Algeria is waiting too for the PAK-FA. The first SU-34 are slated for reception in a couple month.



Actually we want the pakfa after 2020 when it will have newer engines,better radar and better stealth due to some changes.


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## Ceylal

he-man said:


> Actually we want the pakfa after 2020 when it will have newer engines,better radar and better stealth due to some changes.


I think Algeria has a plan to acquire them after the 20's.


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## he-man

Ceylal said:


> I think Algeria has a plan to acquire them after the 20's.



Maybe


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## Water Car Engineer



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## DrSomnath999

*The Russian Air Force's Super Weapon: Beware the PAK-FA Stealth fighter*


The Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA stealth fighter could prove to be a formidable competitor to American fifth-generation combat aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Indeed, in some measures, the new Russian warplane will exceed both U.S.-built jets, but the PAK-FA is not without its flaws.

“The analysis that I have seen on the PAK-FA indicates a pretty sophisticated design that is at least equal to, and some have said even superior to U.S. fifth-generation aircraft,” former U.S. Air Force intelligence chief Lt. Gen. Dave Deptula told the_ National Interest_. “It certainly has greater agility with its combination of thrust vectoring, all moving tail surfaces, and excellent aerodynamic design, than does the F-35.”
The Russian Air Force's Super Weapon: Beware the PAK-FA Stealth Fighter | The National Interest

interestingly some might be inspired by this article though it has many mistakes in it

How would PAK-FA counter F22 in future aerial warfare
*CHEERS*


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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> *The Russian Air Force's Super Weapon: Beware the PAK-FA Stealth fighter*
> 
> 
> The Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA stealth fighter could prove to be a formidable competitor to American fifth-generation combat aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Indeed, in some measures, the new Russian warplane will exceed both U.S.-built jets, but the PAK-FA is not without its flaws.
> 
> “The analysis that I have seen on the PAK-FA indicates a pretty sophisticated design that is at least equal to, and some have said even superior to U.S. fifth-generation aircraft,” former U.S. Air Force intelligence chief Lt. Gen. Dave Deptula told the_ National Interest_. “It certainly has greater agility with its combination of thrust vectoring, all moving tail surfaces, and excellent aerodynamic design, than does the F-35.”
> The Russian Air Force's Super Weapon: Beware the PAK-FA Stealth Fighter | The National Interest
> 
> interestingly some might be inspired by this article though it has many mistakes in it
> 
> How would PAK-FA counter F22 in future aerial warfare
> *CHEERS*



Useless article devoid of any facts...............comparing this to f-16in and f-18e/f is a joke of highest order.


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## mehboobkz

*Fifth-gen fighter: India asks Russia to resolve tech-sharing, costing*

In what could be a sign of fatigue in a long-lasting military relationship, India has conveyed to Russia that it cannot carry on with the proposed project to jointly develop and manufacture the next generation of fighter jets till Moscow addresses concerns about technology sharing and costing.

India and Russia are on the verge of inking one of the biggest defence manufacturing deals to develop and produce the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Its research and development (R&D) will cost $11 billion (Rs 66,000 crore) with India paying half of it. This will be followed by a potential $30 billion deal to make some 200 planes for the Indian Air Force.

As negotiations have dragged on for four years since the FGFA was first announced, India has raised issues of technology; its transfer; New Delhi’s role in development of the plane and the actual per-unit cost of the plane.

Top sources said there have been no answers from Russian delegations at routine talks — the last one being a few weeks ago — and it probably needs political intervention to sort it out. The matter will be slotted for discussion when Russian President Vladimir Putin arrives in New Delhi for the annual summit next month.

Under the existing terms, it is pointless to even think of signing the R&D contract. There are some key sticking points for the IAF that are holding up its decision, said top sources.
*
New Delhi says since it is paying 50 per cent of the cost, it should be doing half the work on the FGFA. At present, the Defence Ministry-owned public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — under the proposal — is mandated to do only 13 per cent of the work.

India has asked Russia to convey the tentative cost on per-plane basis. Since six prototypes are flying, this would not be a problem. But so far, there has been no answer, a source said. The intellectual property rights of the plane would be held by Russia, which has so far, refused to fit HAL-supplied pieces without certification, meaning if India has to re-fit its own pieces, it will need the nod from Moscow.*

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## hawk11



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## SpArK

Russian Prez Putin's India visit on 10-11 Dec likely to see signing of final deal on FGFA (5th Gen fighter aircraft) for production

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## hawk11

SpArK said:


> Russian Prez Putin's India visit on 10-11 Dec likely to see signing of final deal on FGFA (5th Gen fighter aircraft) for production
> 
> View attachment 160635


i dont see why india is complaining- russia will go most of the work in prototype and then let all that technology transfer to india.. how is that bad? india should re-think its RAFael deal because if they crush russia- india and china are next


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## sancho

> *The fighter with the engine of the second stage made its first flight in 2017*
> 
> The first flight of promising Russian fighter PAK FA with the engine of the second stage will be held in 2017, the CEO of United Engine Corporation (UEC) Vyacheslav Masalov.
> 
> The first flight of the PAK FA with the new engine of the second stage of development, also known as article 30, scheduled for 2017, "- said Masalov, reports Tass .
> According to him, the engine of the second stage for the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft ( PAK FA ) will outperform its predecessor.
> 
> "*The effectiveness of the second stage engine for the PAK FA , known as article 30, will be 17-18% higher in comparison with the engine of the first stage*, known as the "Article 117", - said Masalov.
> 
> CEO DCS noted that "*product 30 'will also have a lower specific fuel consumption, and will be less noticeable as compared with the first stage engine*.
> 
> *It is expected that the PAK FA* , first flew in 2010, *will start shipping in the army from 2016* - this summer announced the general director of the United Aircraft Corporation Mikhail Pogosyan. The contract for the supply of these aircraft will be concluded in 2015, calculated in the corporation.



 ВЗГЛЯД / Истребитель с двигателем второго этапа совершит первый полет в 2017 году

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## he-man

Probably an old news but still if anyone missed.


*Complex communications for fighters, helicopters and drones*

_Federal Research and Production Center "SPE" Flight ", part of United instrument-making corporation, has developed a new set of communication tools (KCC) C-111 for any aircraft and an integrated antenna-feeder system for fighter of the 5th generation of the T-50._
The new system significantly improves the quality of aeronautical communications, several times reduce radar signature of the aircraft and can also be used on aircraft of various types, including helicopters Ka-52 "Alligator".

_"S-111 is fundamentally different from all previous developments in its technical characteristics, - the general director of the Joint instrument-making corporation Alexander Yakunin. - It provides a new level of aircraft provide timely information on all phases of flight and in all types of operations._ To realize these characteristics, a packet data communication in digital format, broadband radio channels, new methods of dealing with interference, allowing to increase the range and quality of communication. "

Complex C-111 aircraft provides a new level of efficiency information on all phases of flight and in all types of combat operations

Alexander Yakunin, CEO of instrument-United Corporation

The developers claim the C-111 in no way inferior to modern foreign analogues, and in some ways surpasses them. The complex is capable of real-time transmit by radio waves in the centimeter range aircraft group large amounts of information (voice, video, data, SART and cameras). Transmission speed up to 34.3 Mbit / s.

Complex means of communication has a fully digital open architecture. Reprogrammable platform enables you to store and record the various algorithms. Previously, these functions were performed only at the hardware level with separate products.

The modularity of the S-111 allows you to increase the number of channels and volume functions and use it on any aircraft, including helicopters (Mi-28nm, the Ka-50, Ka-52, Ka-62, PSV), military aircraft transport aircraft (IL-76, IL-112, AN-124, PAK BTA), and front-line fighter aircraft (T-50, MiG-31, Su-34), long-range aircraft (Tu-22M3M, Tu-160M, PAK DA ) and UAVs different classes. 

"At the same principles already developed complex helicopter modification of the C-403-1 for" Alligator "Ka-52 - said the CEO of NPP" Flight "Alexander Komyakov. - Interagency test C-403-1 will be held before the end of 2014. Currently, the company is preparing for mass production of these complexes in the case of a contract ready to put Arsenyev Aircraft Company "Progress" 158 communications systems until 2020. The end of the test system S-111 fighter T-50 is planned in 2015, and then begin serial production at the facilities of our company. "

Specialists SPE "Flight" also created for the fighter T-50 and Ka-52 integrated antenna-feeder systems, which help reduce the number of antennas and thus several times to reduce the radar signature of the machine.






* Photo: Anton Tuszyn *
"Now all the subsystems in the aviation equipment have their own antenna. The number of antennas on one aircraft could reach several tens. This greatly increases radiozametnost increases the cost and complexity of the object. Antenna-feeder system of the new generation, developed by NPP "Flight", allows you to combine antenna transceiver equipment of different functions (communication, navigation, identification, etc.) And minimize the number of antenna devices. They are embedded in the fuselage skin, which is protected by radio waves coating, which reduces aerodynamic drag and reduces the radar signature of the aircraft, "- said Alexey Komyakov.

Google Translate


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## sancho

Google translated:



> *Russian Air Force in 2020 will receive 55 fifth generation fighter*
> 
> Air Force of Russia till 2020 will receive 55 fighter T-50 (Sukhoi PAK FA, PAK FA), said Deputy Directorate of military aircraft programs of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Vladislav Goncharenko.
> "Until 2020 is expected to supply 55 aircraft of this type," - he said on the radio station "Echo of Moscow".
> 
> He recalled that the first production delivery PAK FA in troops planned in 2016...



ТАСС: Армия и ОПК - ВВС России к 2020 году получат 55 истребителей пятого поколения

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## shree835

Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA – A Copy of the US F-22?

The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA – PAK FA means Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation - is a milestone in Russian aircraft production. From what we have seen of it it is believed to be a fifth generation aircraft with stealth features, big internal weapon bays and top modern avionics. It has not been introduced yet and therefore a lot is unknown about it and there are many opinions about it since it has not been in actual combat. However using trusted sources we can get an overview of the fighter and by that try to understand what the world will see when Sukhoi introduces it in 2016.

Read more at :

Is the Russian PAK FA Fighter Jet a copy of the US F-22? » MiGFlug.com Blog


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## DrSomnath999

*AIR & COSMOS N2434 19 december 2014*







RUSSIAN TRUMP CARD

THE PAK FA, FUTURE 5TH GEN FIGHTER IN RUSSIAN AIR FORCE, CURRENTLY EXPERIENCING SOME DELAYS ON THE CALENDAR AND TECHNICAL PROBLEMS.

The Russians took a long time to design and develop fifth-generation fighter. They started in 1986, when the Soviet government launched two programs, the heavy fighter MFI and LFI light fighter, both controlled the office of Mikoyan studies. But when the Soviet Union collapsed, the two studies were arrested. The prototype MiG 1.44 realized only two flights in

2000. In 1997, Sukhoi built on equity, Su 47 Berkut, experimental wing inverted arrow. The unit had more than 200 flights.

I-21, HUNTER XXI CENTURY.

The next cycle of studies, based on the program of the new fighter in the PAK FA (Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsii or air complex future tactical aviation), the 1-21 (Istrebitel, hunter twenty-first century cen) began in about 1998. on 26 April 2002 the T-50 Sukhoi project was declared the winner by the government committee, as part of the PAK FA competition. MiG and its E-721 project were removed. On 21 July 2003, Sukhoi obtained from the Ministry of Defence development & research contract baptize Stolitsa, covering the design, construction and testing of prototypes of the T-50 fighter. In October 2004. Sukhoi revealed to the Russian Air Force the preliminary design of the T-50, which was approved two months later.

Up to now, the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur built five devices for testing, the first flew on January 29, 2010. The sixth and final is expected for 2015. The 100th flight of the T-50 was conducted November 3, 2011; the 500th flight on 14 August 2014. On 9 March 2011, the T-50-1 for the first time passed the sound barrier. July 14, 2012, The T-50-3 used his flight radar for the first time.The August 3, 2012, the T-50-2 made his first refueling
flight with an IL-78.

February 12, 2014, the T-50-2 prototype was transferred to the test center in flight Akhtubinsk, Ministry of Defence, that Sukhoi did not fail to announce with pride. Until then, all tests were performed









the test center Zhukovsky. However, three months later, the plane discreetly returned to Zhukovsky. The purpose of the tests at Akhtubinsk is unknown to date, but it is certain that it was not weapons tests due to the lack of radar on the T-50-2 prototype. In May 20, 2014, the T-50 flew for the first time with fake missiles hanging from their pylons.

PROBLEMS AND IMPROVEMENTS.

During testing, the prototype T-50 were victims of some damages, including structural cracks. This is a result of the detection of the damage that the T-50-1 was immobilized between August 2011 and September 2012, in order to repair it. Different reinforcements subsequently appeared on cells of T-50. Many times, the devices experienced engine problems and landed with a jet engine stopped. On 10 June 2014, just after the landing of the T-50-5 in Zhukovsky, "smoke appeared over the right of return air, then a small fire was seen" according to the press release by Sukhoi. Damage was extensive. The device is currently being repaired - a team coming from the plant in Komsomolsk cares. The plane should fly again in 2015. The plant Komsomolsk-on-Amur began production of another batch of six jets, T-50-7 to T-50-12. But the frames used in the construction of these devices have changed, meaning that significant structural improvements will be introduced there. Particularly as rumors circulate a new tail and new wing panels. The first of these improved jets should fly in fall 2015.

SUPERSONIC CRUISE AND HANDLING.

The T-50 is able to move at supersonic speed without afterburner. It can also maneuver and fight at that speed. The device has an integrated fuselage, generating lift, and deep wing roots whose ends are home to leading edge slats. In this way, the center of pressure can be moved forward, increasing static instability, which enables high maneuverability at supersonic speed, even more than previous hunters.

If one believes Sukhoi, radar cross is reduced to an average of 0.3-0.4 m2, compared to that of 15 m2 with a Su-27. The solution to reduce the radar signature is to transport weapons in the hold. Other devices located in the air intake reduce radar reflection. The design of the plane has been adapted to reduce the number of electromagnetic wave reflection directions. Some air inlets and other openings in the plane were covered with grates having a mesh size smaller than a quarter of the wavelength of the radar "attacker" (which is X-band), which reduces the reflection of these surfaces. The gaps between the components of the fuselage were capped with a conductive gasket. The canopy is metallized. Materials and radar absorbing paints are used.

THE BRAIN.

Unlike Americans who develop two fifth-generation fighters - the heavy fighter F-22 air superiority and light attack aircraft F-35 Lightning II - the Russians decided to have only one type new jet. Thus, the first requirement is versatility: the device must be able to attack all target types, whether air or land. This will be achieved through a multitude of sensors which inform the pilot and with a range of guided munitions.

All systems and controls and sensors are coupled by a central computer. These systems include radio equipment Sh 121 and the optical sensor 101KS and navigation systems, communication, display. The consulting firm Sukhoi is responsible for the integration of equipment, which is new since, in the past, the fire control and navigation systems on Sukhoi fighters were in the business of RPBK Ramenskoe.



RADAR.

Radio-electronic equipment Shl21 includes active antenna radar N036 Byelka (squirrel) manufactured by the Institute Tikhomirov NIIP and the system of measures against L402 Gimalai (Himalayas), designed by Knirti institute. The N036 radar has five active antennas: the antenna works before X-band (centimeter). Oval, with dimensions of approximately 90 cm long and 70 cm wide, it includes 1552 modules. Two other smaller antennas are located to either side with 358 units each, and two L-Band antenna (Decametric) are mounted on the edges of airfoil attack. The use of the L-band radar in air-air mode is the primary means of T-50 to detect stealth targets with radar longer than X-band, where the reduction of the equivalent surface radar is optimized. The GRPZ plant in Ryazan is preparing for the series production of the N036 radar, whose modules made from materials provided by NPP Istok in Fryazino (X-band) and NPP Pulsar in Moscow (L-band). The X-band modules are made from gallium arsenide, while those in L band are silicon based. The system of electronic measures against Knirti L402 Gimalai (Himalayas) has its own antennas (for example, in a "sting" large, located between the engine nozzles). In the same range of frequencies used by the radar, it uses those of N036.

SELF PROTECTION.
Optronic equipment 101 kS Atol, manufactured by UOMZ in Yekaterinburg, consists of warning sensors and systems. In front of the cockpit, is the infrared detector










101KS-V, while the other two lasers infrared sensors

101KS-0 are dedicated to the upper and lower hemispheres. Finally, four missile warning sensors (Maws) cover the entire sphere around the jet. Two of them, the 101KS-U / 02 have the shape of a house with two windows, one dedicated to the sector front & the rear sector One of them is located under the fuselage at the front, and the other on the upper surface of the dart, mounted between the two nozzles engines. The other two U-101KS / 01 are mounted on either side of the fuselage, just aft of the cockpit. A pod of target-designation navigation

101KS- N is also being developed for the PAK FA The final configuration of the Atoll equipment is not clarified. The arrangement and the type of sensors vary between prototypes of T-50, and tested configurations differ with respect to each other.



ARMAMENT.

The T-50 has two large bomb bays of 4.6 x 10 m, which is transported in the basic armament. They occupy the whole length of the ventral surface of fuselarge.Each bay can hold two armaments up to 700 kg each. One can find four average air-air missiles K-77M, long-range missiles izdeliye ^ 810, the anti-radar missiles Kh-58UShK and guided munitions such as the Kh-38M or KAB-250. . For close air combat, the PAK FA has two K-74M2 missiles placed in side bays near the wing roots. For missions that do not require stealth, the device can have up to four pylons under the wings for armaments that can not be placed in the internal bay


TURBOJET: TODAY AND TOMORROW

Current jet is powered by two turbofan Saturn AL-41 F1 (izdeliye 117) Thrust Vector, each providing 14.5 tonnes of thrust.
The 117 is a huge optimization of AL-31 F, which powers the Su-27 / Su-30, with a large diameter fan, new high and low pressure turbines, a combustion chamber and a new FADEC integrated into the control system of the engine.

Vladislav Masalov, CEO of United Engine Corporation, said in early December that 23 engines have been produced so far, the tests to be completed by the end of 2016."No problem should occur during these tests since the 117 is similar to the already qualified 117S which powers the Su-37, with the exception of the FADEC," he commented. The AL-41F1 (117) have powered T-50 fighter at least







until 2020, when the izdeliye 30 begin to be installed on mass produced jets. The development of the latter began in 2011. The first two prototypes hot sections should be assembled -

in late December 2014. The
first engine bench test should be done in 2016, while the first flight of a T-50 with a izdeliye 30 is planned for 2017.


UNIQUE DESIGN.

The izdeliye 30 is a newly designed engine, which is supposed to have more than 171 thrust, reduced weight, few components and a lower transaction cost. Its stealth equipment are to be introduced. The cold section of the engine will be a three-stage compressor (instead of the current four turbojet 117) and a single-stage turbine. The hot section (the gas generator) will have a five-stage compressor (instead of nine) and a single-stage turbine. In December 2014, Masabv said the izdeliye 30 will have a higher efficiency of 17-18% to the motor 117. According to the CEO of NPO Saturn Ilya Fedorov, with new engines, "the unit's performance will be significantly improved, especially in terms of speed and acceleration. "

The PAK FA program is delayed, which is not exceptional, in that the timing related to the hunter was not very realistic from the start. In 2010, it was stated that deliveries to military units begin in 2015

In the "business plan of the Russian Defence Ministry for 2013 -2020" validated initial operational capability and the launch of series production is planned for December 31, 2016. The National Russian weapons program mentions delivery 60 PAK FA in 2020, which is unrealistic. Deliveries will continue after 2020. Despite these problems, the PAK FA is promised to a great future. The technical problems will be solved when the jet would have the support of the Russian Air Force, funds from the Russian government and the first major foreign customer, India.


INDIA,

FUTURE CLIENT?

In January 2003, Russia and India signed a letter of intent command, followed in October 2007 an agreement

Intergovernmental for the development of the future multi-role fighter, known in India as the 5th generation fighter name. In December 2010, a contract for preliminary studies of the device, called type 79L, followed, jointly developed by Sukhoi and HAL in India, based on the T-50.Within this project, the unit's equipment were studied. Tikhomirov NIIP developed the N-079 radar, a Russian-Indian equivalent of the Russian N036. Many systems have received export designations with 79L suffix. such as UV-79L decoy launchers, the weapons pylons carrying RSUO-79L, etc. Signing a contract for expanded following the design of the device was expected for 2013, but negotiations are continuing.

*COURTESY-DrSomnath999
thanks to me*

*P.S quite informative article i must say not bad at all what you guys think 
there might be some error in translation in some part so plz pardon me for that *

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## SpArK

Russia open for equal work share on FGFA - The Hindu

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Russia open for equal work share on FGFA - The Hindu





> Russian officials said that Russia is open for equal work share but stated that “Russia has problems with the Indian demand. If India has the ability to provide certain design knowhow and technologies we are open for equal work. *But this may not be so as seen with the case of Light Combat Program (LCA) and the aircraft under development is a Fifth Generation program.*”



Ouch, that hurts (even if true)! They basically saying, you can't contribute more, which is why hyping the workshare issue at this point doesn't really make sense and they are right about that. We have to increase the workshare over the time of the project and not let ourself blind by the idea that we are an equal partner. The project is 50:50 based, the workshare simply can't be at that level as long as we don't improve ourselfs.


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## PARIKRAMA

i dont see any optimism here... honestly, if we could not Mr putin about India's concerns in this project then hould not expect any miracles. it is better to but T50 and MKIsed it rather than sitting and doing nothing. As such as of today, we are at logjam and ultimately delaying everything. about 50:50 workshare, lets not fool ourselves. May 15 years down the line 50:50 is possible, as of today it is not. so on a staggered basis yes its possible. but then if we are at logjam bcz we want it as of today itself then we are fooling nobody. 

BTW any news of IAF so called concerns and close inspection of T50 protos? did we get access or its still the same? did our any team visit and get access? last time i remember reading HAL team twice went and came back empty handed when they wanted close inspection and asked query regarding one small fire


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> i dont see any optimism here... honestly, if we could not Mr putin about India's concerns in this project then hould not expect any miracles. it is better to but T50 and MKIsed it rather than sitting and doing nothing. As such as of today, we are at logjam and ultimately delaying everything. about 50:50 workshare, lets not fool ourselves. May 15 years down the line 50:50 is possible, as of today it is not. so on a staggered basis yes its possible. but then if we are at logjam bcz we want it as of today itself then we are fooling nobody.
> 
> BTW any news of IAF so called concerns and close inspection of T50 protos? did we get access or its still the same? did our any team visit and get access? last time i remember reading HAL team twice went and came back empty handed when they wanted close inspection and asked query regarding one small fire



The MKI deal, gave us a customized "Russian" fighter, while FGFA will be an Indo-Russian fighter! That's a crucial difference, since it gives us far more freedom to implement our requirements if not at the begining, then over the years. I can only point to the Brahmos project again, which also is an Indo-Russian project and even if in the first version our contribution is minor and the missile is largly based on the Russian original, we now implement our requirements in modifying and applying to various platforms. More over, we already plan the next re-design (Brahmos M), which will include far bigger Indian contribution to design and development, with the long term aim of the hypersonic Brahmos, as a complete new development. The idea is to constantly increase our capabilities, to increase our contribution to the joint project and the same is the aim on FGFA or MTA as well!

Also check this older post:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 142

Wrt IAF concerns, they were dealt several years ago and not only when Ajay Shukla came out with his sensationalized report and one of the results was the decision that India will go only for fighters with the NG Type 30 engine and that still stands. What has changed in the meantime, was if India directly gets twin seaters, which increased the development costs, or if Russia and India go for an upgraded single seat version (single seat config already developed, joined order increases number and therefor should reduce costs or at least keep it under control).
Wrt to the fire of the T50 prototype:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 139

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## PARIKRAMA

sancho said:


> The MKI deal, gave us a customized "Russian" fighter, while FGFA will be an Indo-Russian fighter! That's a crucial difference, since it gives us far more freedom to implement our requirements if not at the begining, then over the years. I can only point to the Brahmos project again, which also is an Indo-Russian project and even if in the first version our contribution is minor and the missile is largly based on the Russian original, we now implement our requirements in modifying and applying to various platforms. More over, we already plan the next re-design (Brahmos M), which will include far bigger Indian contribution to design and development, with the long term aim of the hypersonic Brahmos, as a complete new development. The idea is to constantly increase our capabilities, to increase our contribution to the joint project and the same is the aim on FGFA or MTA as well!
> 
> Also check this older post:
> 
> Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 142
> 
> Wrt IAF concerns, they were dealt several years ago and not only when Ajay Shukla came out with his sensationalized report and one of the results was the decision that India will go only for fighters with the NG Type 30 engine and that still stands. What has changed in the meantime, was if India directly gets twin seaters, which increased the development costs, or if Russia and India go for an upgraded single seat version (single seat config already developed, joined order increases number and therefor should reduce costs or at least keep it under control).
> Wrt to the fire of the T50 prototype:
> 
> Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 139




its true it gives us a chance to increase our capabilities.. but as of today where we are standing? we were suppose to sign the agreement and release 5.5Bn.. the numbers quoted was 127 single type first and now again as you rightly pointed discussion on 2 seater is being considered.. but then again does not all this push the timeframe for inducting it into IAF back? secondly again, a co developement of say 2 seater variant means the entire timeline will be pushed back further as Russians are clear about having just single seater as of now. Also, fitment of 2 seater does not necessarily means changing the aerodynamic body of the aircraft. The former means complete development (from T50 single seater to 2 seater FGFA with airframe codeveloped by India and tested then)and thus the name FGFA serves the idea of co development, the later means more of customisation as the craft capability/airframe all would be already tested by already flying prototypes. so the earlier 2016-2019-all such timelines would be in question. the later choice is economical and less time consuming, the former the tough path of developing the very best which takes time...

about fire, the article said the same what you posted - Causes of fire aircraft source refused to name, referring to the secret nature of the information. i meant to ask did they share the cause to indian counterparts who had asked them the details or they still cite since we have not signed the agreement hence we cant have access to the privileged info. the reports said India did nt get access- neither to causes or to prototypes..


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## Prechko



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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> its true it gives us a chance to increase our capabilities.. but as of today where we are standing?



That depends on what the recent negotioations were up to? If the new MoD wants to basically re-negotiate everything again, just to get a bigger workshare for show off reasons, even if it's realistically not possible with our industry, it will take longer. If the just tried to seal the last negotiated deal, which aimed on a jointly upgraded single seat version for cost reasons, things could be done as the last reports suggested, with production of FGFA to start around 2020.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Also, fitment of 2 seater does not necessarily means changing the aerodynamic body of the aircraft.



Not completely, but the cockpit section needs too be re-designed, the fuel tanks partly re-positioned and things like that and this design work would be done by HAL and accounted to our workshare, just as the Brazilians are now included in the development of the twin seater Gripen F, since the Swedes only go for the single seater. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> i meant to ask did they share the cause to indian counterparts who had asked them the details or they still cite since we have not signed the agreement hence we cant have access to the privileged info. the reports said India did nt get access- neither to causes or to prototypes..



Well that's hard to know, since our officials are very tight-lipped when it comes to passing such infos, that's why many Indian media reports are either based on unnamed sources or simply on speculations. However one has to
distinguish here! They surely have asked the Russians for the cause of the fire and I doubt the Russians will make a big secret out of it in front of IAF officials at least, but we don't have access to the current T50 prototypes, since they are specifically only meant for Russian forces and their requirements. India is not involved in the Pak Fa development, but a 50% partner of the FGFA development, theirfor our access and involvement is limited to that development parts.


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## he-man

pakfa t-50 7th frame(for static tests)
courtesy jo akasura,key forums.

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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> View attachment 179450
> View attachment 179451
> 
> 
> pakfa t-50 7th frame(for static tests)
> courtesy jo akasura,key forums.



The aft end looks faceted. The key word being "looks".

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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> The aft end looks faceted. The key word being "looks".



Yes looks like the engine coverings are finally better than those on mki,su-35 or initial pakfa.
Rest of the changes will be seen in t-50 8 th sp which should come out soon enough and some design changes are expected.


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## monitor

Amidst speculation of Russian stealth program lagging behind that of China's, a 6th T-50 PAK FA made debut at Zhukovsky test airbase. It was trasported to Zhukovsky airbase with the help of a Russian Antonov An-124 Ruslan transport aircraft.

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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> The aft end looks faceted. The key word being "looks".



Not sure about that (at least from these early pics), but they used new materials for the coverings and not just implemented the old engines including the old coverings which could be distinguished by the black painting. It now seems to be fully covered till the nozzles, wonder what other changes can be seen?


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## DrSomnath999

the cockpit behind part looks really flat
plus i wonder the rear side looks little enlarged may be due it's covering

*CHEERS*


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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> the cockpit behind part looks really flat
> plus i wonder the rear side looks little enlarged may be due it's covering



The problem is ducts and underbelly.............
Not to mention the production quality issues vs chinese and americans.

Mainly because it was being hand crafted before and not as mechanized as the western/chinese fighters.Hopefully that issue will be addressed.


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## conworldus

Is there a picture of the PAK FA with weapon bay open? I really want to see its internal payload capacity. No photoshop please.


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## DrSomnath999

solly

even jo asakura from key pub forum cant give you that pic forget about us 

becoz they havenot revealed their weapons bay yet 

*CHEERS*


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## sancho

conworldus said:


> Is there a picture of the PAK FA with weapon bay open? I really want to see its internal payload capacity. No photoshop please.



One of the secrets the Russians still haven't revealed so far and one of the most interesting points that we all wait for.


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## sancho



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## DrSomnath999

happy new year SANCHO the great

*CHEERS*


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## Muhammad Omar

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has done a stunning about-turn, sharply criticising the showpiece Indo-Russian project to co-develop a futuristic Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Even as New Delhi and Moscow finalise a $6 billion deal to co-develop an FGFA with capabilities tailor-made for India, the IAFhas alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance.

So vital is the FGFA considered for the IAF's future that Defence Minister A K Antony has publicly rejected any prospect of buying the American fifth generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, declaring the FGFA would suffice. In 2007, New Delhi and Moscow highlighted the fighter's criticality by signing an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) placing the project above MoD procurement rules. Moreover, Indian scientists say the expertise gained from the FGFA will provide crucial momentum for developing an all-Indian fifth generation fighter, designated the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Yet, with so much riding on the FGFA, the IAF has taken aback the MoD with its complaint that it would not be good enough. On December 24, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."

Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints. In October 2012, then IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, announced the IAF would buy only 144 FGFAs instead of the 214 that were originally planned. Having cut the numbers, the IAF is now questioning the very benefit of co-developing the FGFA with Russia.

Fifth-generation fighters are qualitatively superior to current "Generation 4.5" fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI. They are designed for stealth, which makes these near-invisible to radar; they "supercruise", that is, fly at supersonic speed without lighting engine afterburners (which some current fighters like the Rafale also do); and they have futuristic avionics and missiles.

The MoD and HAL have countered the IAF's objections to the FGFA. Russian officials have clarified that the current prototype's engine, the AL-41F1, is a temporary solution to let the flight-test programme continue. A new engine being developed in Russia will eventually power both the FGFA and PAK-FA.

Officials also say the FGFA programme involves co-developing radar far superior to the one on current prototypes. The Russian Air Force wants conventional radar for its version of the FGFA, which looks only towards the front. The IAF wants two additional radars that look side-wards, allowing the pilot vision all around. Now the Russians are evaluating a similar requirement.

Asked for comments, the IAF has not responded. The MoD and HAL, who were requested for comments via email, have also remained silent.

While the MoD, HAL and the IAF continue discussions, Russia has gone ahead with developing a fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has designed and done 300 test-flights of the T-50, the stealth fighter Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plan to refine into the FGFA in about eight years. The Russian Air Force, which has less ambitious specifications than the IAF, plans to induct into service its own version of the T-50, the PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or 'Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation') by 2017-18.

After the IGA of October 2007, a General Contract was signed in December 2008 between HAL and Rosoboronexport, Russia's defence exports agency. This laid out general principles of cooperation, such as work share, cost sharing and sale of the FGFA to third countries. In December 2010, a Preliminary Design Contract was signed, which led to the FGFA's basic configuration and selection of its systems and equipment. With that completed in June 2013, the crucial R&D contract is now being negotiated. This will encompass the actual design and development of the FGFA.

Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard News


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## Maravan

Fifth Generation Fighter development doesn't seem easy even for the US.

Computer glitch prevents US’ most advanced F-35 fighter jet from firing until 2019 – report — RT USA

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## IndoUS

Uuummm... why are we discussing a year old new?

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## BDforever

IndoUS said:


> Uuummm... why are we discussing a year old new?


you know why ...

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## StormShadow

cirr said:


> India，an under-developed country with hundreds of millions of people living in abject poverty，always goes for the very best when it comes to arming its soldiers。
> 
> India should live within its means and capabilities and aim for what best suits its defence needs not what's best on the market。

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## TejasMk3

Date of Article,
*Jan 21, 2014*

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## nvKyleBrown

TejasMk3 said:


> Date of Article,
> *Jan 21, 2014*


Interesting - so it looks like the complaining was/is not a prelude to canceling, so much as a negotiating ploy. It will be interesting years hence to see whether they got any concessions out of it.


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## ROCKING

cirr said:


> India，an under-developed country with hundreds of millions of people living in abject poverty，always goes for the very best when it comes to arming its soldiers。
> 
> India should live within its means and capabilities and aim for what best suits its defence needs not what's best on the market。


We do not and will not compromise with the security of our motherland


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## SrNair

IAF is a quality obsessive force.
LCA is the best example .They want a mini Sukhoi from that single engine fighter.


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## Pulsar

IndoUS said:


> Uuummm... why are we discussing a *year old* new?


Because the OP is rubbing his hands with glee, praying for the project to stall or better still, fall apart.  Which Pakistani wouldn't?  So he clutches at straws to dig out any old stuff so he can have his daily snigger!

The FGFA will be in IAF squadron service by 2022. Period!

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## Stephen Cohen

@cirr 

Thank you for your advice


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## PakEye

*the article is one year old but the valid objections of IAF are still Standing :-*

top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."

Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were:

(a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; 

(b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and

(c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

the IAF renewed the attack in a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared :
the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.


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## cerberus

pakeye said:


> *the article is one year old but the valid objections of IAF are still Standing :-*
> 
> top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."
> 
> Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were:
> 
> (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India;
> 
> (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and
> 
> (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."
> 
> the IAF renewed the attack in a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared :
> the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.


And these problems are discussed and corrected if you want get details visit to FGFA thread.

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## Tshering22

sreekumar said:


> IAF is a quality obsessive force.
> LCA is the best example .They want a mini Sukhoi from that single engine fighter.



IAF should be ignored in getting the FGFA deal done. They're like teen girls on their periods. Fussy and moody.

Parikkar should go ahead with it and shove it down their throats.


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## Stephen Cohen

Tshering22 said:


> IAF should be ignored in getting the FGFA deal done. They're like teen girls on their periods. Fussy and moody.
> 
> Parikkar should go ahead with it and shove it down their throats.



Then Russia will hand us a lemon and take 30 billion dollars for it


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## Tshering22

Stephen Cohen said:


> Then Russia will hand us a lemon and take 30 billion dollars for it



Give me options of any other advanced countries offering co development of 5th generation fighters, genius.

JSF is on offer for purchase only and even UK a tier 1 partner doesn't have access to its full tech. We all know ADA' s capability in bringing AMCA on its own. I'll have my grandchildren married by the time they roll it out alone.

Any other?

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## Stephen Cohen

Tshering22 said:


> Give me options of any other advanced countries offering co development of 5th generation fighters, genius.
> 
> JSF is on offer for purchase only and even UK a tier 1 partner doesn't have access to its full tech. We all know ADA' s capability in bringing AMCA on its own. I'll have my grandchildren married by the time they roll it out alone.
> 
> Any other?



Fifth generation technologies will take time to mature ; look at the problems of F 35

There is no need for haste ; Chinese J 20 / J 31 is NO threat at all simply because
they will take a lot of time to mature

Dont go by their external stealthy shape ; what matters is what is inside the J 20

Russia should allow us more insight into the makings of PAK FA
That is the real meaning of co development
They just want our money 

And they believe that we will make an steathy AMCA by the knowledge gained in PAK FA

Anyway this article is an year old and since then some progress has been made


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## SrNair

Tshering22 said:


> IAF should be ignored in getting the FGFA deal done. They're like teen girls on their periods. Fussy and moody.
> 
> Parikkar should go ahead with it and shove it down their throats.



But sometimes that would be the sanestchoice. We dont have a luxury of lavish spending.So optimum resources and maximum utilisation.That might be their choice.
And Russians need some shock treatment after that Viky saga


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## Icewolf

Why is AMCA and FGFA even being discussed?
All we saw out of those stealth projects are just 1 foot long concept aircrafts.
Is that really what qualifies as defence news in India?
Does India even have the expertise to make a stealth fighter? Haven't we seen enough with the LCA Tejas or the Arjun tank?

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## cerberus

Icewolf said:


> Why is AMCA and FGFA even being discussed?
> All we saw out of those stealth projects are just 1 foot long concept aircrafts.
> Is that really what qualifies as defence news in India?
> Does India even have the expertise to make a stealth fighter? Haven't we seen enough with the LCA Tejas or the Arjun tank?


LCA & Arjun Tank are indigenous projects.


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## holysaturn

These are high technology projects ,problems and performance shortfalls will be there as always. Till now none of the high technology systems have met their initially laid out requirements, the list is B-1,B-2,F-117,V-22,F-22,LCS,F-35,A-400. So its criminal to expect that T-50 or J-20 will perform better,but it all depends on what the respective services,users expect.

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## India defense

Stephen Cohen said:


> Then Russia will hand us a lemon and take 30 billion dollars for it


still better than Chinese pumpkins


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## vk17

No offence but Don't know sometimes I feel like IAF need spacehips and Indian Army need starwar weapons, best in world or rather universe


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## 帅的一匹

I swear IAF must be more interested in F35 than PAKFA, Rusky is going come up with a water down version fighter to cheat the hell out off of India.to be honest, PAkFA is a shoddy try by pathetic Russian.

PAKFA looks like a squashed SU27 with some weapon bay added on random, poor design.

I always think IAF shall go for F35 instead of PAKFA.



Stephen Cohen said:


> Fifth generation technologies will take time to mature ; look at the problems of F 35
> 
> There is no need for haste ; Chinese J 20 / J 31 is NO threat at all simply because
> they will take a lot of time to mature
> 
> Dont go by their external stealthy shape ; what matters is what is inside the J 20
> 
> Russia should allow us more insight into the makings of PAK FA
> That is the real meaning of co development
> They just want our money
> 
> And they believe that we will make an steathy AMCA by the knowledge gained in PAK FA
> 
> Anyway this article is an year old and since then some progress has been made


if let you have a glance at what J20 has inside, I promise you don't wanna be an Indian any more.



India defense said:


> still better than Chinese pumpkins


I will call it an ignorant confidence, I don't think PAKFA is better than J20 in any aspect.


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## mike2000

India should go ahead with the deal IMO, I don't understand why they keep whinning. Its not like they can develop a 5th generation stealth fighter independently, when they have run into difficulties producing a reliable 4th generation fighter. So I think its bad to be asking too much from Moscow on this one. Of course, I know Moscow won't share all its critical tech on this project with India(no power will to be honest). So India should do with what it has(which to me is its best option) as it has got no other choice or alternative, except it wants to buy the F-35 (though superior to FGFA/PAK-FA) off the shelf.

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## sancho

pakeye said:


> *the article is one year old but the valid objections of IAF are still Standing*



Nonsense, it was a made up article back than and still is, especially since IAF has selected the new engine for FGFA back in 2011!!!

India has chosen engines for fighter FGFA


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## Echo_419

Icewolf said:


> Why is AMCA and FGFA even being discussed?
> All we saw out of those stealth projects are just 1 foot long concept aircrafts.
> Is that really what qualifies as defence news in India?
> Does India even have the expertise to make a stealth fighter? Haven't we seen enough with the LCA Tejas or the Arjun tank?



Both LCA & Arjun are in serial production



mike2000 said:


> India should go ahead with the deal IMO, I don't understand why they keep whinning. Its not like they can develop a 5th generation stealth fighter independently, when they have run into difficulties producing a reliable 4th generation fighter. So I think its bad to be asking too much from Moscow on this one. Of course, I know Moscow won't share all its critical tech on this project with India(no power will to be honest). So India should do with what it has(which to me is its best option) as it has got no other choice or alternative, except it wants to buy the F-35 (though superior to FGFA/PAK-FA) off the shelf.


Since we are financing 50% it is our right to demand critical techs


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## PakEye

sancho said:


> Nonsense, it was a made up article back than and still is, especially since IAF has selected the new engine for FGFA back in 2011!!!
> India has chosen engines for fighter FGFA


Dear sancho please visit the link artical dated " Sunday, January 4, 2015 | 09:42 PM IST "
Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard News


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## sancho

pakeye said:


> Dear sancho please visit the link artical dated " Sunday, January 4, 2015 | 09:42 PM IST "
> Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard News



It doesn't matter when the site was updated the last time, but when the article was published and that is a year ago. But again, more than that it's the made up content that is the problem.


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## PakEye

sancho said:


> It doesn't matter when the site was upgraded the last time, but when the article was published and that is a year ago. But again, more than that it's the made up content that is the problem.


O.K.
is FGFA project running according to schedule ?


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## sancho

pakeye said:


> O.K.
> is FGFA project running according to schedule ?



FGFA is delayed by around 2 years from the initial plans, mainly because the project is still in definition phase and the final contracts are missing. Pak Fa on the other side seems to go well and on track with Russian requirements, which plans to induct the first fighters by next year. The development of the Type 30 engine is going on as expected too, the first fighter with the engine is expected in 2017.


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## mike2000

Echo_419 said:


> Both LCA & Arjun are in serial production
> 
> 
> Since we are financing 50% it is our right to demand critical techs



Lool but Russia won't ever agree to transfer their latest/best tech to you or any country for that matter bro. 

Well to be honest, no power will ever do that, so it applies not only to Russia, but even our governments in the West/U.S. So India has to accept what Russia offers, while investing more in its own R&D,so it can produce such critical weapons on its own. That's the only way out for India. Expecting other countries/foreign powers to give you everything/all their latest tech on a plate is all but laughable to be honest. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT , there are things that can't be transfered/shared. So India will have to accept what Russia offers, which I don't think is a bad deal by the way.


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## Supply&Demand

mike2000 said:


> Lool but Russia won't ever agree to transfer their latest/best tech to you or any country for that matter bro.
> 
> Well to be honest, no power will ever do that, so it applies not only to Russia, but even our governments in the West/U.S. So India has to accept what Russia offers, while investing more in its own R&D,so it can produce such critical weapons on its own. That's the only way out for India. Expecting other countries/foreign powers to give you everything/all their latest tech on a plate is all but laughable to be honest. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT , there are things that can't be transfered/shared. So India will have to accept what Russia offers, which I don't think is a bad deal by the way.



if we dont get tech, u dont get paid...so..we do not have to accept anything. we are not some b*tch of US or china..


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## Echo_419

mike2000 said:


> Lool but Russia won't ever agree to transfer their latest/best tech to you or any country for that matter bro.
> 
> Well to be honest, no power will ever do that, so it applies not only to Russia, but even our governments in the West/U.S. So India has to accept what Russia offers, while investing more in its own R&D,so it can produce such critical weapons on its own. That's the only way out for India. Expecting other countries/foreign powers to give you everything/all their latest tech on a plate is all but laughable to be honest. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT , there are things that can't be transfered/shared. So India will have to accept what Russia offers, which I don't think is a bad deal by the way.



I Agee with your point but Russians will have to fulfill TOT obligations or we won't release the money & tell me 1 more nation which can partner Russia for this project


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## mike2000

Echo_419 said:


> I Agee with your point but Russians will have to fulfill TOT obligations or we won't release the money & tell me 1 more nation which can partner Russia for this project



Well, it's true Russia 'HAS' to fulfil its TOT obligations , but then again that's just officially, reality is different, as they won't want India to absolve all their latest tech, which will/might enable India to use it in its own AMCA project. If this was to happen, then India wont be dependent on Russia anymore(meaning loss of billions of dollars for Moscow in this field), hence it will mean Moscow will lost its largest arm importer/cash cow. 
So of course as any power/country will do the same like Russia (I.e. keep India dependent on it for as long as possible). Russia won't give you their best/latest/critical tech which they spent they spent decades of R&D/hard work and experience developing. So India has to be aware of this and take its own measures to mitigate this, I.e by counting only on itself first and foremost instead of always wanting to take the short cut. Investment in R&D and establishing a proper aerospace industry in India should be the way forward, not pleading with Moscow to give you their best tech, since you 'paid for it'.lol. That won't happen to be honest. 

At best Russia will transfer you part of the tech they think isn't that important/cutting edge/no big deal. India will have to accept this since it has NO OTHER BETTER CHOICE(and Moscow knows this).

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## satishkumarcsc

mike2000 said:


> Lool but Russia won't ever agree to transfer their latest/best tech to you or any country for that matter bro.
> 
> Well to be honest, no power will ever do that, so it applies not only to Russia, but even our governments in the West/U.S. So India has to accept what Russia offers, while investing more in its own R&D,so it can produce such critical weapons on its own. That's the only way out for India. Expecting other countries/foreign powers to give you everything/all their latest tech on a plate is all but laughable to be honest. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT , there are things that can't be transfered/shared. So India will have to accept what Russia offers, which I don't think is a bad deal by the way.


No country in the world would.......that is a known logic....and that is how the world runs. We are good at negotiations...but getting a no strings attached 5th gen fighter is much better than a fighter with a lot of limitations politically.


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## Echo_419

mike2000 said:


> Well, it's true Russia HAS to fulfil TOT obligations , but then again that's just officially, reality is different, as they won't want India to absolve all their tech which will enable India to use it in its own AMCA project, if this was to happen, then India wont be dependent on Russia anymore(meaning loss of billions of dollars for Moscow in this field), hence it will reduce Moscow largest arm importer/cash cow. So of course as any power/country will do, Russia won't give you their best/latest/critical tech which they spent they spent decades of R&D/hard work/experience developing. So India has to be aware of this and take its own measures to mitigate this, I.e by counting only on itself first and foremost instead of always wanting to take the short cut. Investment in R&D and establishing a proper aerospace industry in India should be the way forward, not airing for Moscow to give you their best tech, since you 'paid for it'.lol. That won't happen to be honest.
> 
> At best Russia will transfer you part of the tech they think isn't that important/cutting edge/no big deal. India will have to accept this since it has NO OTHER BETTER CHOICE.



My point still stands we pay money they give us TOT no TOT no money
Simple as that & we ain't asking for 100% just 50%


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## mike2000

Echo_419 said:


> My point still stands we pay money they give us TOT no TOT no money
> Simple as that & we ain't asking for 100% just 50%



Now you are talking my man. Its better to expect 50% at best than 100% . Even though I'm not sure Moscow will even be willing to transfer 50%. Well depends on how hard India bargains for this 50% though.


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## Echo_419

mike2000 said:


> Now you are talking my man. Its better to expect 50% at best than 100% . Even though I'm not sure Moscow will even be willing to transfer 50%. Well depends on how hard India bargains for this 50% though.



Well i think they will agree to our 50% demand as it will be stated in the basic contract & our partnership with Moscow is built on the solid foundation of the one thing that matters the most in these kinds of relation ships,money.

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## conworldus

Echo_419 said:


> Well i think they will agree to our 50% demand as it will be stated in the basic contract & our partnership with Moscow is built on the solid foundation of the one thing that matters the most in these kinds of relation ships,money.




I'd love to know what is the definition of "50%". It is not like you can have Russia design the left half of the airplane and India design the right half.


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## skysthelimit

conworldus said:


> I'd love to know what is the definition of "50%". It is not like you can have Russia design the left half of the airplane and India design the right half.



Like this??

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## TopCat

mike2000 said:


> Now you are talking my man. Its better to expect 50% at best than 100% . Even though I'm not sure Moscow will even be willing to transfer 50%. Well depends on how hard India bargains for this 50% though.



India is offered with premiere price as it contributed at the development stage and committed to the number of aircraft it will buy. Thats where it ends besides some of the assembling going to take place in India (probably).



Echo_419 said:


> My point still stands we pay money they give us TOT no TOT no money
> Simple as that & we ain't asking for 100% just 50%


TOT of what? Engine? top secret coating? alloys? Nah you aint getting it. You will get basic physical design of the aircraft including aerodynamics, RCS, and the blue print to how to assemble the aircraft. Thats called TOT . You can even get this from toy stores which sells T-50 replica.

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## MilSpec

iajdani said:


> TOT of what? Engine? top secret coating? alloys? Nah you aint getting it. You will get basic physical design of the aircraft including aerodynamics, RCS, and the blue print to how to assemble the aircraft. Thats called TOT . You can even get this from toy stores which sells T-50 replica.


Brilliant post, it absolutely reflect your knowledge on how ToT works...

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## Echo_419

iajdani said:


> India is offered with premiere price as it contributed at the development stage and committed to the number of aircraft it will buy. Thats where it ends besides some of the assembling going to take place in India (probably).
> 
> 
> TOT of what? Engine? top secret coating? alloys? Nah you aint getting it. You will get basic physical design of the aircraft including aerodynamics, RCS, and the blue print to how to assemble the aircraft. Thats called TOT . You can even get this from toy stores which sells T-50 replica.



You don't know shit about the deal neither are you a citizen of Russia or India,you are just a dumb troll from BD nothing else

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## conworldus

skysthelimit said:


> Like this??
> 
> View attachment 182200


LMAO, good one!


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## Mujraparty

*Update:

Russia and India have completed the creation of conceptual design of the export version of the fifth generation fighter,* Regional Director for International Cooperation of the United Aircraft Corporation Andrew Marshankin.

*MOSCOW, January 10 - RIA Novosti.* Russia and India have completed the creation of conceptual design of the export version of the fifth generation fighter (Sukhoi PAK FA), said on Saturday in a radio broadcast "General Staff" (Russian News Service) Regional Director for International Cooperation of the United Aircraft Corporation Andrew Marshankin.



> "*At the moment we are with our Indian colleagues have completed the creation of an export version of the PAK FA, known in India as FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft). There are already documentation and understanding of the scope of the next phase of design, scale of future production", - he said*.




*Marshankin noted that while the Russian version of the fifth generation fighter aircraft operated by a single pilot, the Indian Air Force traditionally prefer aircraft operated by two pilots.*

"In severe conditions of modern warfare is extremely difficult to simultaneously maneuver and fire on the enemy. While the Indian side suggests that the Indian version of the fifth generation fighter will still be for the two pilots," - he said.

PAK FA - Russia's fifth-generation multi-role fighter. The use of composite materials and innovative technologies, aerodynamic design aircraft, the characteristics of the engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared signature.

According to plans of the Russian Air Force, serial deliveries of the T-50 will begin in 2016; last winter Air Force received the first T-50 test. So far, only one country in the world is armed with fifth-generation fighter - US aircraft F-22 and F-35.



РИА Новости http://ria.ru/world/20150110/1041999677.html#ixzz3OU9TiA8T

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## SOHEIL

eowyn said:


> Indian version of the fifth generation fighter will still be for the two pilots

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## DrSomnath999

*Five facts for T-50*




Fifth-generation fighter T-50
Source: militaryrussia.ru


Russian fifth-generation aircraft T-50 (PAK FA), which supply the troops will begin in the coming year, no less fantastic than the space fighters from "Star Wars." It has a super-maneuverability, invisible to radar - although he sees everything - is able to fight equally effective at any range, hitting the target in the sky and on the ground.


*Invisible Glider*


All amazing T-50 is hidden from view. 70 percent of its skin made of composite materials to reduce the visibility. The effective area of scattering T-50 - a key parameter in the radar - 0.5 square meters. This means that on the radar screen it will look like the subject of the size of a balloon.


The geometry of the airframe and wings designed so that the T-50 could be flown at high angles of attack. It is necessary for super-maneuverability, which provide the PAK FA


*Rotary nozzle*


The aircraft is equipped with engines with thrust vector control (item 117). As the rotary engine aft motor boats, deflected nozzles allow the PAK FA unfold virtually on the spot.


To overcome enemy air defenses engines can go from round to flat nozzles. This is inefficient - loss of traction reach 5-7 percent - but it is necessary to hide the massive red-hot turbine from radar and infrared sensors.


Article 117 allows you to accelerate to supersonic speeds without using afterburner and is equipped with a digital control system. However, this is only the first stage - in 2020 to replace the current motors come new, with an increase of 25-30 per cent of traction.


*Smart Cabin*


At the T-50 are six radars. Their antennas are distributed over the casing, providing all-round visibility. Right before the canopy is an optoelectronic sensor system to detect targets, behind the cab - infrared sensor, which allows to see "behind".


Electronic warfare station "Himalayas" makes the T-50 to become invisible to enemy radar, while allowing you to see enemy stealth aircraft. Its equipment is also scattered over the surface of the PAK FA.


- We make no separate units and aircraft parts from the built-in electronic devices, - explained the CEO of Concern "Radio-electronic technology," Nikolai Kolesov.


*Cold reason*


T-50 - very clever plane. His two multiprocessor computer connected to the fiber interface bandwidth gigabit per second. Electronic intelligence system collects information from radio, radar, optical and other sensors, it forms a coherent picture of what is happening in heaven and on earth and where to apply for transfers.


PAK FA is able to fight both alone and as part of the concept of "unified field", where each combat vehicle is the eyes, ears and impact strength of the whole army. T-50 can transmit data to other aircraft and ground-based air defense systems, or receive targeting them. Airborne weapon control system allows up to 60 accompany goals while firing 16 of them.


The navigation system of the aircraft combined: GPS, GLONASS, both standard and without any satellites. The last case has inertial navigation, as in ballistic missiles. Gyroscopes and accelerometers to measure the angular velocity of flight, and electronics, knowing the coordinates of the take-off, and calculates the current location of the T-50.


Fundamentally new control system can take some of the load on piloting, allowing the pilot to concentrate on combat missions. Pilot receives information in the form of images on multifunction displays three. There are display on the windshield, helmet-mounted target designation system and voice informant. He says a pleasant female voice: "Start resolved."


*Long arms*


PAK FA is able to dogfight at any distance, and is armed with rockets for this large, medium and short range. Long-range R-37 set a world record by hitting a target at a distance of 304 kilometers. Medium-range missiles RVV-SD NATO was given the name "Viper". Its warhead is armed with metal rods with miniature cumulative elements. The rods are connected to each other and form an expanding ring blasting, cutting target.


Short-range missiles K-MD can be used for missile defense. To protect the aircraft and operate "Himalaya" - they are trying to fool the enemy homing missiles.


Because T-50 is not "pure" fighter, and multi-purpose aircraft, he has weapons and to work on the ground. For example, the supersonic missile "BrahMos" Russian-Indian production, anti-X-35, or "killer radar" P-58.
Пять секретов Т-50 - ВПК.name

*p.s The translate is not accurate IMO
*

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## Prajapati

mike2000 said:


> Lool but Russia won't ever agree to transfer their latest/best tech to you or any country for that matter bro.
> 
> Well to be honest, no power will ever do that, so it applies not only to Russia, but even our governments in the West/U.S. So India has to accept what Russia offers, while investing more in its own R&D,so it can produce such critical weapons on its own. That's the only way out for India. Expecting other countries/foreign powers to give you everything/all their latest tech on a plate is all but laughable to be honest. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT , there are things that can't be transfered/shared. So India will have to accept what Russia offers, which I don't think is a bad deal by the way.



LoL is that why India is Manufacturing Su 30 MKI from radars to Engine ? ...... or help India make a Nuclear Submarine ? or help India in canister launched missiles ? ..or a cryogenic engine ?

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## Water Car Engineer



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## DrSomnath999



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## DrSomnath999

*To whom Mikhail Pogosyan leave UAC*

*The answer to this question lies beyond the corporation itself*




Mikhail Pogosyan
Photo by Artem Zhitenev / RIA Novosti
Mikhail Pogosyan stepping down as head of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC). The contract was designed to February 2016, but already January 16 Board of Directors may send Poghosyan resigned. As a result, the balance of power in the Russian defense industry will change significantly.

*Joint anti-crisis Corporation*
Mikhail Pogosyan, head of the holding "dry", in 2011, took over as president of the United Aircraft Corporation Alexei Fedorov, former head of the Corporation "Irkut". Thirty years later historians popular domestic aircraft industry for sure, without going into details, can easily give a phrase like "the struggle interest groups and business interests behind these two figures, determined the whole complexion of the Russian aircraft industry at the turn of the century" - and not much pogreshat against the truth .

In any case, it was necessary to recommend to treat age with respect, because, no matter how trite sounds, it literally decided to leave. As they say industry sources, this decision initiated by Pogosyan, though not without the pressure of external circumstances.

United Aircraft Corporation, founded in 2006, initially seen as integrators of post-Soviet aircraft industry, due to the collapse of the USSR were not "leading and guiding force", a role which until 1991 was fulfilled by the aviation industry. The main task of the new corporation was pulling stalled aircraft factories, mainly civilians, due to more successful colleagues, especially the holding company "Dry" and Corporation "Irkut", managed to swim through the export of aircraft Su-27 / Su-30.

Pogosyan, which grew out of the team of the late head of Sukhoi Mikhail Simonov, known in the industry as a project manager with difficult aligned cooperation. On his account protaschenny through difficult years and irregular financing project Su-35s launched from the ground up project cars of the fifth generation PAK FA, as well as a civil regional airliner Sukhoi Superjet.





Sukhoi SuperJet 100
Photo: Superjet International
The last two projects are particularly noteworthy. At the start, they looked the same unrealizable and advance were covered with labels at best "cuts" in the worst - Manilovism. However, we have over the years? Serial construction of dozens of "Superjet" Komsomolsk and flying fighter T-50, built by the PAK FA program. This success in the aircraft can not boast of one only "Irkut" with their mass production of the Su-30MKI (Su-30cm) and light Yak-130 has no background on the project Pogosyan pale appearance.

Also it should be noted that it was under KLA Poghosyan lost its former loose form, where "business units" were established with 90s feudal fiefdoms Directorate, and went on to transparent management, when the plants are built and design in the Directorate for ongoing projects machines.

The main complaint against the KLA in recent years, in addition to financial distress (associated with the recovery of lying on the side of enterprises and start-up capital program development and production), is a policy in the field of civil aviation. All the forces in it were thrown on two projects: "Superjet" and medium-range airliner MS-21, which makes the "Irkut".

The project "SuperJet" strongly involved in co-operation with foreign suppliers, in the current environment will experience more risks than previously given, quite frankly, is small and not very rhythmic demand for liner. (In contrast to the mass production of Komsomolsk, which is just a very good schedule.)





Stand UAC on Aviation and Space Salon "Farnborough 2014"
Photo: Alex Kudenko / RIA Novosti
It is in the very near future will certainly cause another surge model gloating about "pogosyanovskogo cuckoo", which pushed out of the nest civil aviation industry a lot of "unique, unparalleled" domestic projects (some of them, like the Tu-334, conceptually obsolete already at the time of the first rise in air). Worth the wait and related proposals back on the wave of "import substitution" to the autarkic development of civil aircraft.

But these small lobbying attempts to profit at the expense of budget financing special irrelevant. The value is a much more serious, quiet and expensive process under way in the domestic defense industry. It was there that should look for an answer to the question about the future of the KLA.

*Corporation "MinVseobscheMash"*
We are talking about the planned expansion of the influence of the state corporation "Rostec", which already owning 40 percent of the Russian defense enterprises with total output only military production in excess of 600 billion rubles (in 2013), as well as monitoring of up to 90 percent of Russian arms exports, on essentially a shadow Ministry of Defense Industry.

When you create a state corporation "Russian Technologies", later changed to "Rostec 'main tasks were similar to those that were the creation of the KLA. By the proceeds of "Rosoboronexport", which became the main asset of the new corporation, and a number of other companies whose equipment by means of the same ROE has found its market, expected to breathe life into other assets. A few years later the continuous growth of military spending, coupled with the Russian export of military equipment will make "Rostec" giant with a turnover of over one trillion rubles.

Of the largest Russian defense holdings not retract one way or another in the sphere of influence "Rostec", in fact, there were only the KLA and the United Shipbuilding Corporation. Such as self-giant "Almaz-Antey" fell last year on its base began forming a new group of aerospace defense, and the task is assigned directly to the head "Rostec" Sergey Chemezov, who headed the board of directors.

We must understand that we are not talking about a campaign of public business in private, and the gradual coalescence of state defense assets into a giant business conglomerate, which is equal to the degree of centralization was not in the Soviet times. Then below supervising state authorities (Department of Defense and the Central Military-Industrial Commission Council of Ministers) began the "nine" defense ministries, managed independently. How to behave in a similar pattern in terms of increased attention to the government's defense order (and also increased funding), particularly in terms of cost efficiency, yet to understand.

About the lack of coordination between the KLA and rostehovskimi holdings producing equipment for the aviation industry, say for a long time. Judge who is to blame, not so easy, but according to media reports is already known that the new head of the KLA will be a separate item tasked to coordinate with the "Rostec" (whatever that meant no).

Thus, the most interesting thing in the story itself is not Pogosyan, who, as has long been an independent figure, ruled despotically Russian aviation industry and should remain serious. What he has achieved, what failed, and what he should not have done - let versed professionals in a few years, when it becomes clear real impact on the decisions of Michael Aslanovich industry (whatever it was).

The first question that must be asked in this section with respect to shape the new head of the KLA, is very simple: how this person would be affiliated with the "Rostec"? This will tell about the situation with the change of leadership the penultimate major defense of monopoly, not included in rostehovskuyu matrix, more than any other speculation.

Although in any case, the new head of the KLA will have to deal with the same machines that are already unwound flywheel development and production. Machines that made him Poghosyan.

***
At the time of delivery of the material it became known that the government approved a directive on the appointment to the post of deputy head of the KLA Minpromtorga Yuri Slyusarev, who was in charge at the Ministry of the aviation industry. Mikhail Pogosyan, will take over as general designer of the corporation.

Konstantin Bogdanov
Статьи: Lenta.ru: Силовые структуры: Оборонка: На кого Михаил Погосян оставляет ОАК

^^ why dont the russian recruit ex DRDO chief Avinash chander 
he is also dynamic & expert in marketing PR like pogosyan 

*CHEERS*


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## Agent_47




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## sancho

Does anybody need a new calendar?




















More here:
ОАО "Компания "Сухой" - Галерея

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## hawk11



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## Agent_47

Current status of *FGFA*:

2007 - Intergovernmental agreement on this project
2010 December - General contract on joint design and production and then the first engineering development contract for $295 million. Works under this agreement were completed in 2013.
Contract for experimental design works and full design and development are pending for now
Sukhoi to sign another contract with India on FGFA | Russia & India Report

India, Russia to create FGFA ahead of schedule


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## conworldus

South Korea and Iran??? That's surprising I have not heard of any talks of them buying it. 



hawk11 said:


>


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## sancho

[/QUOTE]


conworldus said:


> South Korea and Iran??? That's surprising I have not heard of any talks of them buying it.



That's a fan art, not an official time line, Russia offered Pak Fa to S. Korea, but that's not realistic, just as Iran is only a theoretical choice.


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## hawk11

conworldus said:


> South Korea and Iran??? That's surprising I have not heard of any talks of them buying it.


s korea offered suhkoi to enter their countries bid for 5th gen fighter, supposedly s korea wanted to buy 20 of t50's, however due to delays sukhoi never entered the bid so the whole plan froze, seeing how complex 5th gen fighter development is i dont think s korea can domestically build one any time soon, further US f22 is not for sale and f 35 is a joke, so the only options are china and sukhoi


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## ptltejas

Sukhoi PAK-FA T-50 part 6 - Sukhoi PAK-FA T-50 | Facebook

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## sancho

Google translated:


> *Gun tests Sukhoi T-50 in 2015 *
> 
> Russian society Rostec, a consortium of several Russian manufacturers whose Kalashnikov, *announced that testing of the gun Russian fifth generation fighter Sukhoi T-50 / PAK-FA, should take place in 2015.*
> The gun 9А1-4071К 30 mm, described by Rostec weapon of "high rate" has already been tested in 2014 on a Su-27SM. *The work of integration on board the T-50 should therefore take place this year and will result in trials whose exact nature was not specified.
> 
> Many observers point out that the barrel of the T-50 could be operational before the F-35. The 25mm cannon GAU-22 JSF should indeed not be operational before 2017. But at that time the F-35 is already deployed in a few squads while the series production of the T-50 will probably not start . *


*
Essais du canon du Sukhoï T-50 en 2015 - Air et Cosmos*
*



*

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## Ind4Ever

Wow nice thread guys . Looks like we will have two variants by 2016-2020 ?


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## Abingdonboy

Such are very poor at marketing their products. By this time in the F-35 program they were producing advanced CGI videos showcasing the full road map of the F-35 and where it hoped to go. The final design/capabilities of the PAK-FA are unknown.

Still waiting on things as basic as the look of the cockpit and the HMDS to be employed. 

India's taxpayers are supposed to be okay investing $30+ BN in this project but have little idea what they are getting in return (I'm sure the IAF/HAL do but that's separate).


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Such are very poor at marketing their products. By this time in the F-35 program they were producing advanced CGI videos showcasing the full road map of the F-35 and where it hoped to go. The final design/capabilities of the PAK-FA are unknown.
> 
> Still waiting on things as basic as the look of the cockpit and the HMDS to be employed.
> 
> India's taxpayers are supposed to be okay investing $30+ BN in this project but have little idea what they are getting in return (I'm sure the IAF/HAL do but that's separate).



What we see today is basically what the first stage Pak Fa will look like, since the Russians will induct it from next year onwards in this design and capability. It's natural that they don't show all the capabilities and remain with some secrets. We don't know about the true capacity of theweapon bays, we don't know how the final EW sensor config will look like, we don't know the final performance of the radars, as well of the fighter in general in the serial production configuration.
Cockpit won't change that much for this version either and for the HMS:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 100


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> What we see today is basically what the first stage Pak Fa will look like, since the Russians will induct it from next year onwards in this design and capability. It's natural that they don't show all the capabilities and remain with some secrets. We don't know about the true capacity of theweapon bays, we don't know how the final EW sensor config will look like, we don't know the final performance of the radars, as well of the fighter in general in the serial production configuration.
> Cockpit won't change that much for this version either and for the HMS:
> 
> Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 100


Hmm I had missed the news about the HMDS, pretty underwhelming considering what the F-35 will have as far as HMDS go (if things go well ). 

I guess the IAF could just stick to the TOPSIGHT-I and interstate that HMDS for their FGFAs.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Hmm I had missed the news about the HMDS, pretty underwhelming considering what the F-35 will have as far as HMDS go (if things go well ).
> 
> I guess the IAF could just stick to the TOPSIGHT-I and interstate that HMDS for their FGFAs.



That's as said the base for the first stage Pak Fa, the later Pak Fa / FGFA can have far different cockpit displays, HMS, just as the engines will be different as we know to, especially since there our requirements come in, which evidently are higher than the Russian once.

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Gun for the PAK FA will be tested in 2015*

Weapons for the fifth-generation fighter are developed by High Precision Systems






Flight tests of the 9A1-4071K modernized rapid-aircraft cannon, which can exhaust its entire ammunition capacity in any mode, were conducted on the Su-27SM. In 2015, developmental work is planned to test the gun on a plane of the fifth-generation – the T-50.

Currently, the official terms of reference and the state contract are being finalized, according to TASS. PAK FA is Russia's fifth-generation multi-role fighter. It is being developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau, where the fighter has been designated as the T-50. PAK FA first took to the skies in 2010. In total, eight aircraft are being constructed; five of which are already flying. Serial deliveries of the fifth-generation fighter to the army are to begin in 2016.

The T-50 provides a system of automatic target recognition. In the lining of the PAK-FA special transceiver elements are integrated, allowing the aircraft to respond to all surrounding objects and to transmit signals to the pilot of any threats.

The main structural elements of the fighter are manufactured by Rostec enterprises. The power core was developed by designers from the United Engine Corporation. The cabin lights and trim were developed by specialists from RT-Chemcomposite. Avionics and onboard electronics, which satisfy the requirements of a fifth generation aircraft, were developed by Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies.

Rostec :: News :: Gun for the PAK FA will be tested in 2015

*Sukhoi PAK FA exceeds all expectations*

The fifth-generation fighter aircraft passes an important testing stage






_In Zhukovsky, just outside Moscow, one of the testing stages for the multi-purpose PAK FA fighter plane has been completed. Parts for the aircraft were developed by companies under Rostec State Corporation._

The fifth-generation Russian fighter aircraft not only outperformed foreign analogues, but it also demonstrated characteristics which exceeded its designers’ expectations.

The PAK FA, also known as the T-50, is capable of carrying out the functions of fighter, attack and bomber aircraft. The fifth-generation fighter is equipped with stealth technology, artificial intelligence and has a top speed of over 2,500km/h. The aircraft can carry out complex operations which had previously been impossible without pilot input.

The PAK FA has completed its test flights and given a demonstration of acrobatic manoeuvres. The testers reported that the aircraft carries out many functions automatically, making the pilot’s work easier. For example, if the stick is released upon take-off the aircraft will manoeuvre itself into a horizontal position. Even in the case of the pilot being unable to fly the plane, the PAK-FA can automatically return to base and land.

The PAK FA has automatic target recognition. Its skin also has special built-in transmit-receive elements allowing it to react to all surrounding objects and send a warning signal to the pilot in case of a threat.

The main structural elements of the aircraft are made by Rostec companies. The power unit is being developed by United Engine Corporation. The cockpit light and fittings are made by specialists at Rostec Chemical and Composite Technologies and Materials. The avionics and on-board radioelectronics to meet the requirements of a fifth-generation aircraft are being created at Radioelectronic Technologies.

Most of the aircraft’s specifications are being kept secret. The designers will only confirm that many of the PAK-FA’s parameters surpass those of the American Raptor F-22 fifth-generation aircraft. The Russian jet has a top speed that is more than 500km/h faster; it is also lighter and has a longer flight duration. Furthermore, the PAK FA has greater manoeuvrability than the American aircraft.

During secret trials the PAK FA completed over 500 flights. Its designers have confirmed that the first testing stage was a success. The fifth-generation PAK FA is due to go into mass production in 2015.

Rostec :: News :: Sukhoi PAK FA exceeds all expectations

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## CONNAN

*Russia To Receive 5th Gen Fighters This Year*

WARSAW — The Russian Air Force is set to receive the first batch of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA jet fighters this year amid its strained business relationship with co-developer India.

*Compared with the aircraft's previous version, the variant has been fitted with a number of new features, according to the manufacturer. *

Despite this, Russia will need to cope with the increasing criticism voiced by India, which is partnering with Moscow on developing the aircraft, amid concerns over delivery delays and technical shortfalls of the program.

Local analysts say that the bilateral cooperation on the program has produced a sense of disenchantment by India's military circles.

While the program has been "announced with a great deal of promise for the overall Indo-Russian defense cooperation," the fighter jet project "is currently confronted with a myriad of problems. With India already having paid US $295 million for the preliminary design and development costs, Russian unwillingness to share design information on the aircraft is not being received well in New Delhi," said Monika Chansoria, senior fellow at the Centre for Land Warfare Studies think tank in New Delhi.

The T-50 is to serve as the basis for developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program, which will be supplied to the Indian Air Force. In 2007, Moscow and New Delhi signed an agreement to jointly develop the fighter jet, following which Russia's state-owned Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi, and India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, signed a preliminary design development deal. The total worth of design, research and development works has been estimated at more than $10 billion.

Meanwhile, the capabilities added to the new variant of the stealth fighter include a new avionics suite that integrates the electronic pilot functionality, and an advanced phased-array antenna radar, according to Russia's state-run United Aircraft Corp.

With the new features, United Aircraft says it is aiming to significantly decrease pilot load, and enable data exchange in real time, not only with ground-based control, but also within the flight group, according to information obtained by local news agency ITAR-TASS.

The fifth-generation fighter jets will be made at the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, a subsidiary of the Russian group. The aircraft is to be enabled with a maximum speed of 1,516 mph.
*
"[F]ollowing repeated demands by India, the Russians finally agreed to carry out a technology demonstration flight of the prototype aircraft in June 2014, which, shockingly, caught fire at the end of the test flight while landing at the Zhukovsky test center near Moscow," Chansoria said. "What added to the controversy … was Russia's refusal to share any details of this failure, to the extent that a technical evaluation team of the Indian Air Force that reportedly was present at the site was refused access to inspect the damaged platform."*

The T-50 is intended as a successor to the Russian military's fourth-generation Sukhoi Su-27 and Mikoyan MiG-29 fighters, and a competitor to the F-22 Raptor and F-35 aircraft. The deliveries of the aircraft have been significantly postponed, as in 2010, Russia's then-Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said the first batch of the fighter jet was expected to be supplied to the country's Air Force in 2013.

The analyst said that the "repeated technical delays on the project are prompting a debate within India" whether the country "can afford to wait for another decade to induct the fighter into its forces."

By 2020, the Russian Air Force will have acquired 55 T-50s, Vladislav Goncharenko, the deputy head of the military aviation programs department at United Aircraft, said Dec. 15, as reported by ITAR-TASS.

Under the plan, the Russian Air Force this year will obtain 126 new aircraft and 88 helicopters as part of the country's military modernization program.

Meanwhile, the latest announcement follows the release of United Aircraft's improved financial results for 2014. Last year, the group delivered 161 aircraft and increased its revenues by about 30 percent to 285 billion rubles (US $4.32 billion), according to company data. This year, company representatives say they are expecting to expand the manufacturer's revenues to about 400 billion rubles.

The fighter jet project could be decisive for shaping Moscow's military cooperation with New Delhi, which remains Russia's major defense trade partner. Other joint projects developed by the countries include the BrahMos, a supersonic cruise missile jointly developed by NPO Mashinostroeyenia, a Russian design bureau, and India's state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation.

Until 2013, India represented 38 percent of Russian major weapons exports, with Moscow supplying 75 percent of India's imports of major weapons, according to Chansoria. However, a lack of sufficient partnership on the FGFA program could put the future of this collaboration into jeopardy.

"Moscow and New Delhi need to iron out these differences and speed up progress on the project," Chansoria said.

Email: jadamowski@defensenews.com

Russia To Receive 5th Gen Fighters This Year

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## CONNAN

*
Is this real or artistic image the landing gear lights looks real to me click on image to further magnify the picture*

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## manishmaithani

CONNAN said:


> *
> Is this real or artistic image the landing gear lights looks real to me click on image to further magnify the picture*


I think its artistic image because background picture and pilot seat area is little dusky than other surface area of aircraft

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## sancho

CONNAN said:


> *
> Is this real or artistic image the landing gear lights looks real to me click on image to further magnify the picture*



Photoshopped:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 126

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## sancho

Nothing special, but the first actual pics of this year:

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## CONNAN

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/567223592966832128"


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## PARIKRAMA

*Russia, India to Start Manufacture of First Test Models of T-50 Fighter Jet*

*Russia and India are moving into the phase of constructing the first test models of the Russian-Indian fifth-generation T-50 fighter jet.*









MOSCOW (Sputnik) –
*Russia and India are moving into the phase of constructing the first test models of the Russian-Indian fifth-generation T-50 fighter jet with stealth capabilities, the deputy head of Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport said Tuesday.*


*“The agreements on the contract are currently at their final stages, which include the development of construction documentation, building the test models, trials, and certification,” Sergei Goreslavsky told RIA Novosti in an interview ahead of the Aero India-2015 exposition in Bangalore, India, that will open on February 18.*

*The first stage of the Russian-Indian project has already been finalized. The first test aircraft is scheduled to be created after 2018.*

The Sukhoi T-50, or PAK FA, is the Russian Air Force’s first stealth fighter, designed to succeed the Sukhoi Su-27, as well as the Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jets. The aircraft conducted its first test flight in 2010.

The FGFA, developed jointly by Russia’s Sukhoi and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is a derivative from the T-50. Unlike the Russian version, the Indian version of the aircraft will be a two-seater.

Russia, India to Start Manufacture of First Test Models of T-50 Fighter Jet / Sputnik International

*
"New Delhi Gets Full Access to Russian New Fighter Jet Technology" *







*According to Indian ambassador in Moscow, defense companies involved in a joint project with Russia to build a Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are satisfied with their access to Russian technologies.*

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – 
*Indian defense companies involved in a joint project with Russia to build a Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are satisfied with their access to Russian technologies, the Indian ambassador in Moscow said, denying media reports that Moscow withheld information from New Delhi.*


*"We have had excellent results in our bilateral cooperation and are fully satisfied with the access to technologies that our defense enterprises get. We proceed with the same level of cooperation in the development of the FGFA," Ambassador Pundi Srinivasan Raghavan told RIA Novosti.*

*This remark came after IHS Jane's Defence Weekly magazine claimed last September that India had expressed concerns to Russia over the progress on the FGFA program. According to the defense news weekly, New Delhi was annoyed about Russia's reluctance to share design data on its T-50 PAK-FA jet, which is the base model for the FGFA aircraft.*

*Raghavan refuted these reports, saying they "may have been supplied by competitors," and accused the media of biased reporting.*

The ambassador lauded the progress in military technical cooperation between Russia and India, who are working on a raft of bilateral projects.

*"The new tendency in the relationship is the joint development of advanced technology weapon systems. FGFA, MTA and Brahmos Missile are examples of the joint development of weapon systems incorporating sophisticated technology," he noted.*

MTA stands for the Multirole Transport Aircraft, which is a twin-engine light transport plane with a maximum take-off weight of 65 tons. It is designed to replace the BAe 748 and Antonov An-26 craft, currently in Indian service.

Raghavan told RIA Novosti the countries have agreed to fast-track the project, with a timetable to be laid out by the year-end.

"Both sides have decided to speed up the work of the project. Apparently, this multi project differs from other projects and that is why it takes more time to discuss all the details. But I hope that by the end of 2015, we will be able to agree on a very clear and detailed timetable," he said.


New Delhi Gets Full Access to Russian New Fighter Jet Technology / Sputnik International

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## nair

At last some good news for IAF.......


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## Last Samuri

Brilliant scrap rafale lets get behind the Fgfa fully now


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## sancho

nair said:


> At last some good news for IAF.......



Lets wait and see for official statements from our side, Sputnik is not that realiable as a source and the "first test aircraft after 2018" would be a huge delay from earlier plans.

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## nair

sancho said:


> Lets wait and see for official statements from our side, Sputnik is not that realiable as a source and the *"first test aircraft after 2018"* would be a huge delay from earlier plans.



I also noticed that, We were supposed to induct it by then....... But let us be realistic.......I dont think it is possible before 2018.....

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## sancho

nair said:


> I also noticed that, We were supposed to induct it by then....... But let us be realistic.......I dont think it is possible before 2018.....



No induction was planned after 2020 only, but the earlier plan was to have the first prototype available in India around this year, with the last (serial production) version delivered around 2019 before the production can start. We need at least 4 prototypes of different stages to develop FGFA and starting from 2018 it would delay production start to around 2025 or later. 
Realistically, we should get one of the current T50 prototypes to test it in Indian conditions and to give IAF a better idea on what changes they need. I still hope that we will get our own cockpit layout, with own displays and the way IAF wants it to be, not as it suits Russian forces (see problems in the MKI). The later prototypes then will also include more changes, like the Type 30 engine, most likely external and internal customizations. But with the new MoD, things are a bit blurred, if we make a complete U turn or what they actually want now.

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## nair

sancho said:


> No induction was planned after 2020 only, but the earlier plan was to have the first prototype available in India around this year, with the last (serial production) version delivered around 2019 before the production can start. We need at least 4 prototypes of different stages to develop FGFA and starting from 2018 it would delay production start to around 2025 or later.
> *Realistically, we should get one of the current T50 prototypes to test it in Indian conditions and to give IAF a better idea on what changes they need*. I still hope that we will get our own cockpit layout, with own displays and the way IAF wants it to be, not as it suits Russian forces (see problems in the MKI). The later prototypes then will also include more changes, like the Type 30 engine, most likely external and internal customizations. But with the new MoD, things are a bit blurred, if we make a complete U turn or what they actually want now.



That seems to be a good idea........ Is there any discussion happening on this?



Last Samuri said:


> Brilliant scrap rafale lets get behind the Fgfa fully now



MMRCA and FGFA roles are different.....


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## sancho

nair said:


> That seems to be a good idea........ Is there any discussion happening on this?



There was:



> HAL is to get three Russian prototypes for re-design and testing in 2015, 2016 and 2017, and will hand over the first series produced aircraft to the IAF in 2019, Mr. Subrahmanyan said.



India to customise Russia's FGFA planes - The Hindu

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## sancho

> *Aero India 2015: New UAC chief bullish on fifth-gen fighter progress*
> 
> New United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) CEO Yuri Slyusar is confident that Russia and India will sign a contract for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in 2015.
> 
> "Rosoboronexport [Russia's defence export body] is in the final stage of negotiations for the FGFA contract," Slyusar said on 19 February at Aero India 2015. "We think there is a possibility to sign the agreement within 2015. At least the Russian side thinks it will be done in 2015."
> 
> Slyusar, a deputy minister of Industry and Trade who replaced Mikhail Pogosian on 15 January, said that the two sides had signed preliminary and detailed design contracts for the FGFA programme, which is based on the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter due to enter Russian Air Force service. "The level of co-operation we have with India [on this programme] is something we don't have with any other country," he added.
> 
> Pressed for details, he said that the workshare between the two countries on the FGFA was still the subject of negotiations, but "when we can tell you we will tell you" how the programme will be split between UAC and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)...



Aero India 2015: New UAC chief bullish on fifth-gen fighter progress - IHS Jane's 360




> *AERO INDIA: Upgraded T-50 PAK-FA powerplant in rig tests*
> 
> The Izdeliye 30 engine for Russia’s T-50 fighter is undergoing rig testing, and will enter flight trials in 2017.
> 
> United Aircraft Corporation chief Yuri Slusar says the Saturn 117S (AL-41) is already a “very deep modernisation” of the AL-31 that powers the Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, and is “sufficient” for the current stage of the T-50 test campaign.
> 
> He adds that the company has six T-50 test aircraft, two for ground tests and four for flight testing. Three additional aircraft will join the fleet in 2015.
> 
> “Everything is on track,” he says. “We are moving on as per the schedule agreed with our customers.”
> 
> He adds that it was always the plan to operate the T-50 test campaign in two phases, the first using the Saturn 117S and the second with the Izdeliye 30...



​AERO INDIA: Upgraded T-50 PAK-FA powerplant in rig tests - 2/20/2015 - Flight Global


----------



## IND151

Russia Confident it Can Sign FGFA Fighter Jet Deal With India in 2015 | idrw.org


----------



## anant_s

*Upgraded T-50 PAK-FA powerplant in rig tests*

The Izdeliye 30 engine for Russia’s T-50 fighter is undergoing rig testing, and will enter flight trials in 2017.

United Aircraft Corporation chief Yuri Slusar says the Saturn 117S (AL-41) is already a “very deep modernisation” of the AL-31 that powers the Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, and is “sufficient” for the current stage of the T-50 test campaign.

He adds that the company has six T-50 test aircraft, two for ground tests and four for flight testing. Three additional aircraft will join the fleet in 2015.

“Everything is on track,” he says. “We are moving on as per the schedule agreed with our customers.”

He adds that it was always the plan to operate the T-50 test campaign in two phases, the first using the Saturn 117S and the second with the Izdeliye 30.

Slusar also expressed confidence that the Yak-130 advanced jet trainer is poised to receive a follow on order from the Russian air force, and add to its customer base overseas.

Russia has reportedly commited to 60 addition Yak-130s. Slusar would not confirm this number, but said discussions are ongoing.

He adds that the company is indiscussion with countries in Latin America and Southeast Asia for the type, and that potential buyers include Mongolia and Vietnam.

The type has already scored two overseas buyers: Algeria and Bangladesh.
​AERO INDIA: Upgraded T-50 PAK-FA powerplant in rig tests - 2/20/2015 - Flight Global


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## Abingdonboy

*Zhuk AE (FGA 35) x-band , AESA Radar at Aero India 2015*

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## tsarbomba

That AESA gets air cooling. Zhuk runs extremely hot on full power.


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## CONNAN

*Russia, India to Begin Construction of Test T-50 Fighter Jets*

*Russia and India are moving into the phase of constructing the first models of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with stealth capabilities, based on the Russian T-50 prototype jet, the deputy head of Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport said Tuesday.*
“The agreements on the contract are currently at their final stages, which include the development of construction documentation, building the test models, trials, and certification,” Sergei Goreslavsky told RIA Novosti in an interview ahead of the Aero India-2015 exposition in Bangalore, India, that will open on February 18.

The first stage of the Russian-Indian project has already been finalized. The first test aircraft is scheduled to be created after 2018.

The Sukhoi T-50, or PAK FA, is the Russian Air Force’s first stealth fighter, designed to succeed the Sukhoi Su-27, as well as the Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jets. The aircraft conducted its first test flight in 2010.

The FGFA, developed jointly by Russia’s Sukhoi and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is a derivative from the T-50. Unlike the Russian version, the Indian version of the aircraft will be a two-seater.


Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150217/1013470596.html#ixzz3Sccfe9Pu

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## SR-91

CONNAN said:


> *Russia, India to Begin Construction of Test T-50 Fighter Jets*
> 
> *Russia and India are moving into the phase of constructing the first models of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with stealth capabilities, based on the Russian T-50 prototype jet, the deputy head of Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport said Tuesday.*
> “The agreements on the contract are currently at their final stages, which include the development of construction documentation, building the test models, trials, and certification,” Sergei Goreslavsky told RIA Novosti in an interview ahead of the Aero India-2015 exposition in Bangalore, India, that will open on February 18.
> 
> The first stage of the Russian-Indian project has already been finalized. The first test aircraft is scheduled to be created after 2018.
> 
> The Sukhoi T-50, or PAK FA, is the Russian Air Force’s first stealth fighter, designed to succeed the Sukhoi Su-27, as well as the Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jets. The aircraft conducted its first test flight in 2010.
> 
> The FGFA, developed jointly by Russia’s Sukhoi and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is a derivative from the T-50. Unlike the Russian version, the* Indian version *of the aircraft will be a *two-seater*.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150217/1013470596.html#ixzz3Sccfe9Pu



So we r getting a two seater.
Everything is highly automated now these days, why IAF, the only ones, wants two seater on a 5th generation fighter. This is beyond me???

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## CONNAN

SR-91 said:


> So we r getting a two seater.
> Everything is highly automated now these days, why IAF, the only ones, wants two seater on a 5th generation fighter. This is beyond me???



I too always wonder with the advancement in automation why i think we are the largest operators of 2 seater fighter jets. 2 seaters really good of intercepting and aerial reconnaissance at same time I think we should have the combination of both love to see su35 bm or su 30mki single seat fighter

so most of the time the answer is Need? Not really. To be more efficient? YES...

well I remember in one interview IAF saying fundamentally, in a single-seat fighter/attack aircraft the pilot is overloaded while in a two-seater the pilot is free to simply fly the airplane to its maximum limits

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## SR-91

CONNAN said:


> I too always wonder with the advancement in automation why i think we are the largest operators of 2 seater fighter jets. 2 seaters really good of intercepting and aerial reconnaissance at same time I think we should have the combination of both love to see su35 bm or su 30mki single seat fighter
> 
> so most of the time the answer is Need? Not really. To be more efficient? YES...
> 
> well I remember in one interview IAF saying fundamentally, in a single-seat fighter/attack aircraft the pilot is overloaded while in a two-seater the pilot is free to simply fly the airplane to its maximum limits




Next generation is all bout stealth and greater dependance on avionics. Enemy shouldn't see u and avionics doing the rest of the job.
I would've rather see them making FGFA more stealthier and get more expertise in stealth than waste their time in a two seater outdated design in two seater.

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## CONNAN

SR-91 said:


> Next generation is all bout stealth and greater dependance on avionics. Enemy shouldn't see u and avionics doing the rest of the job.
> I would've rather see them making FGFA more stealthier and get more expertise in stealth than waste their time in a two seater outdated design in two seater.



good points but The problem is when it comes to stealth , Avionics , radar , ECM no one beats the khan in the present market and coming to 2 seater or single seat well its upto the IAF only god Knows what they want the FGFA to be. last time there was this news in 2013 posting it below the below piece of information was given on the bottom of the article

*



India had initially pitched for 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters, but the IAF now plans to stick with single-cockpit fighters to reduce costs and protect stealth features.

Click to expand...

*


> India Concerned About FGFA Work Share With Russia | AWIN content from Aviation Week

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## sancho

SR-91 said:


> So we r getting a two seater.
> Everything is highly automated now these days, why IAF, the only ones, wants two seater on a 5th generation fighter. This is beyond me???



Who said they are the only one? USN wanted twin seat F22 varients, Israel and other customers prefered twin seat F35s and the success of the twin seat Su 30 at exports over the single seat Su 35, should make clear what export countries wants.
Also look at the EF and Rafale, 2 of the most modern fighters today, with the most advanced avionics and the French purposly go for more twin seaters than single seaters, while we saw how RAF EF pilots found it difficult to do self designated strikes in Libya in the initial stages (although the lack of training might had been a reason too), which resulted in twin seat Tornados supporting them. 
Modern avionics makes it easier for a single pilot to operate a multi role fighter, while pilots in the past were specialised for A2A or A2G, but that doesn't mean a 2nd pilot / WSO wouldn't add advantages. Be it strike, recon, EW or the mini AWACS, or buddy refuelling roles, it always helps to have a 2nd pilot on board. That's why the F15 strike Eagles, the F18 Growlers, all Israeli F16 SUFAs are twin seaters too, or why Russia use the Su 34 for EW or most attack roles, not the Su 35. 
The only reason why most stealth fighters are produced in single seater versions is simple costs. Re-designing and development of the twin seater adds costs, to an already expensive development and that's the same reason why Russia and India earlier compromised on buying single seat fighters first, to keep costs under control and add the twin seater later, when costs went down a bit, after the first 100 to 200 fighters were produced.

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*SU T 50 FIGHTER PROJECT GETS A THRUST*




A fan art of Two seat FGFA




FGFA or PMF shown by HAL in Aero India 2015

With the number of operational fighter squadrons dipping to an alarming 25 as against the required 42 squadrons the Government of India has felt a strong need for new fighter jets and in a rapid induction phase. Keeping the future moves of the hostile countries GOI has accelerated the process to induct the best in class 5th gen Fighters for the Indian Air Force. The project has been slated as the SU T50 being jointly developed with the Russians .With the last government showing very less progress in this regard it’s a uphill task for the present government to induct these jets in a rapid succession. Though the deal was discussed with the Russian counterpart during the last government’s tenure no head way was made in the talks and a formal agreement in this regard remained a dream to be realized. From the day the new government took over office the modernization of the armed forces and ramming up the capabilities of the forces has been the top priority. With China running ahead with its very own Fifth generation fighter project the government is surely concerned. China has always been waiting to strike back at India. The present government seems to have realized the real threat to India if any is not “Pakistan “but the “China”. Chinese having established two entirely different projects have joined the elite club of having access to two entirely different Stealth aircrafts platforms and its only after The United States of America. With increased co-operation between China and Pakistan fears of these sophisticated aircrafts being operated in a two front attack against India seems to be a real possibility. And the depleting operational fighter squadron’s numbers of the air force has surely alarmed the government. With no new induction on chart to the air force and faced with only retirement schedules of the 60's era fighters the government has been forced to fast track the “FGFA project”.




The Su T 50, PAK FA 4th Prototype in Testing


With the new government finalising the contract with the Russian counterpart the long waited Fifth Generation aircrafts can soon be seen patrolling the Indian skies with a IAF tag on them. The Indian and Russian government have now officially signed contracts to produce the first test models for the 5th gen fighters benefiting for both Russian and Indian Air force. The Indian delegation has demanded for minute modifications than to the model being developed for the Russian forces. The Russian Variant has been formally named as PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation), and the Indian variant being named as PMF (Perspective Multi-role Fighter). The main developing parties for the Fighter have been finalised with Russian based Sukhoi being theajor investor and developer for Russia and the Indian side’s development and manufacturing process being headed by HAL. With both the state owned companies having a good rap out and past experiences in the SU 30 project the companies have made significant steps to materialize the long pending projects. Finally the disputes in regard to various issues regarding the “Technology sharing” and financial worries with Sukhoi and HAL has crossed the turbulent waters and has finally sailed in to a calmer portion promising a bright future for both the forces.


Even though the first T 50 made its first public appearance in Jan 2010 very less has been know of the aircraft’s capabilities and with just the test models ready it’s a very long way for the induction of these force multiplying fighters into the respective forces. The FGFA project now stands for a testing time where the capabilities the role of the aircraft is time and again tested. With various demands to be met the Russians are sticking to field their first Squadron of SU T 50 by 2017 even though it’s really asking. The first fully fledged prototype model to be handed over to HAL is being awaited in a year to follow. HAL would then be charged with the responsibilities to fine tune the capabilities of the aircraft and to start the process of modifications for Indian conditions. The first Indian version is scheduled to be delivered and inducted by 2019. Indian Air Force has scheduled to field at least a few squadrons of these sophisticated fighters by the year 2021. But with very less ground work being completed it’s a very demanding schedule the IAF has set-up for the HAL. With the time frame being too tight the Indian Government may opt for various other options. To stick to the demanding nature India is facing the government may end up with a totally new contract to procure a few squadrons of T 50 directly from Russia. 


Though rumors have been for quite some time nothing has been officially confirmed till date. IAF has time and again felt the need to operate these stealth capable fighters for quite some time if the present government does sign a deal for a direct procurement IAF may boost of these ultra-tech fighters which will surely serve as a mega force multiplier for the IAF. Sources close to Russian agencies said have deferred the dates for these T 50 to around the planned induction time of 2020.

The major modifications being demanded by the IAF is to have capacities for the fighter to operate with a two manned stations. The present and under development fifth gen fighters of other nations actually have been developed around a one manned station. Starting from F 22, J 31 to the F 35 all have been provided and developed for a single operating crew. The mother design T 50 itself is being developed around a single manned station. The only ones who seem to be following the IAF path are the Israeli's who have had plans to modify their F 35 to be manned by two operating crews. And the change in this very basic design demands a very skilled team to work for flawless perfection to be mastered.

To boost the dipping squadron numbers and the need for deep strike operations increasing IAF initially planned to procure some 250 FGFA but faced with short runs in various fields the final number was trimmed to 150 FGFA’s. Former IAF chief Browne was quoted saying to have initially went for 150 two manned FGFA and 50 T 50 from Russia but later to be trimmed down to 150.

If the fact is to be believed IAF can boost of 6-7 operational FGFA squadrons by 2021. And if the government does go ahead with the plans to procure a few T 50 directly from Russia in fly away condition IAF can boost of stealth capable fighters joining their forces by 2020. Hope the all crucial FGFA project rolls in the top gear and the expected deadlines are met and the IAF is given a major booster for strategic deep penetrating bombing missions in the near future.

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## sancho



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## PARIKRAMA

*Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia*





*Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service*
New Delhi 


Faced with a dwindling fleet of fighter jets, India is pressing its military ally Russia for immediate delivery of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).

*New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet (being built as an FGFA) can be supplied to the Indian Air Force (IAF) while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The same formula of graded improvements was applied in the case of Sukhoi-30 MkI jets.*

*Top government sources told The Tribune that Russians have been insisting on a $ 11-billion R&D contract for the FGFA project. India, on its part, says since the plane is already flying, such a contract can be inked along with simultaneous deliveries of the plane to the IAF. Russia is yet to decide on India’s request*.

Bulk deliveries of the T-50 jet for Russian forces will commence in 2016. India wants Russia to deliver 144 jets. Russian go-ahead will give the IAF necessary number of planes to phase out ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s. In a war scenario with China, an aircraft such as the T-50 would be ideal for missions deep into Tibet. Beijing has a very good border infrastructure that poses threat to India.

Indications of a breakthrough in the deadlock over FFGA deal had come at the just-concluded Aero-India. Both sides separately acknowledged they were close to finalising the T-50 deal for the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme being run by Russia.

IAF Chief Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha had last week said: “The future belongs to fifth-generation fighters. Pending issues with Russia will be resolved soon and we will have a compressed timeline for deliveries”.

From the Russian side, the state-owned United Aircraft Corporation's (UAC) president Yuri Slyusar had said: “The Russian and Indian parties have reached a consensus on the work share of each party”.

Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia

_Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618

New glide path - some Su-50 MKI, then full blown FGFA, then Russkis adopt FGFA. Then improved FGFA for both India & Russia post 2028.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618

The matter is simple. Commence deliveries of the Su-50 to India concurrently with deliveries to the RuAF. And then send them to NE bases.


Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 
Border infra, new EW systems, Agni-V, K-4, early Su-50 deliveries. The grounds for detente with China are being put in place._

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## sancho

Interestingly the only new pics coming in, are from the 2nd prototype.

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## Gessler

Interesting note about PAK-FA engine "Type-30" -






Russia ups stakes in hypersonic race | Russia & India Report

Thanks to *Vritra* at the other forum

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## he-man

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Ajay Banerjee
> Tribune News Service*
> New Delhi
> 
> 
> Faced with a dwindling fleet of fighter jets, India is pressing its military ally Russia for immediate delivery of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).
> 
> *New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet (being built as an FGFA) can be supplied to the Indian Air Force (IAF) while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The same formula of graded improvements was applied in the case of Sukhoi-30 MkI jets.*
> 
> *Top government sources told The Tribune that Russians have been insisting on a $ 11-billion R&D contract for the FGFA project. India, on its part, says since the plane is already flying, such a contract can be inked along with simultaneous deliveries of the plane to the IAF. Russia is yet to decide on India’s request*.
> 
> Bulk deliveries of the T-50 jet for Russian forces will commence in 2016. India wants Russia to deliver 144 jets. Russian go-ahead will give the IAF necessary number of planes to phase out ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s. In a war scenario with China, an aircraft such as the T-50 would be ideal for missions deep into Tibet. Beijing has a very good border infrastructure that poses threat to India.
> 
> Indications of a breakthrough in the deadlock over FFGA deal had come at the just-concluded Aero-India. Both sides separately acknowledged they were close to finalising the T-50 deal for the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme being run by Russia.
> 
> IAF Chief Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha had last week said: “The future belongs to fifth-generation fighters. Pending issues with Russia will be resolved soon and we will have a compressed timeline for deliveries”.
> 
> From the Russian side, the state-owned United Aircraft Corporation's (UAC) president Yuri Slyusar had said: “The Russian and Indian parties have reached a consensus on the work share of each party”.
> 
> Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia
> 
> _Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618
> 
> New glide path - some Su-50 MKI, then full blown FGFA, then Russkis adopt FGFA. Then improved FGFA for both India & Russia post 2028.
> 
> Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618
> 
> The matter is simple. Commence deliveries of the Su-50 to India concurrently with deliveries to the RuAF. And then send them to NE bases.
> 
> 
> Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618
> Border infra, new EW systems, Agni-V, K-4, early Su-50 deliveries. The grounds for detente with China are being put in place._





I TOLD EVERYONE THE SAME THING IN LAST 2 YEARS


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## Agent_47

Internal weapon bays

The PAKFA has two tandem main internal weapon bays each approximately 4.6 m (15.1 ft) long and 1.0 m (3.3 ft) wide and two small triangular-section weapon bays that protrudes under the fuselage near the wing root. The internal carriage of weapons preserves the aircraft's stealth, reduces aerodynamic drag and improves performance compared to external stores. The T-50's high cruising speed is expected to substantially increase weapon effectiveness compared to its predecessors. Vympel is developing two ejection launchers for the main bays: the UVKU-50L for missiles weighing up to 300 kg (660 lb) and the UVKU-50U for ordinance weighing up to 700 kg (1,500 lb). The aircraft has an internally mounted 9A1-4071K (GSh-301) 30 mm cannon near the right LEVCON root.

For air-to-air combat, the T-50 is expected to carry up to six beyond-visual-range missiles in its two main weapons bays and two short-range missiles in the wing root weapons bays. The primary medium-range missile is the active radar-homing R-77M (izdeliye 180), an upgraded R-77 variant with AESA seeker and conventional rear fins; the short-range missile is the heat-seeking R-74M2 (izdeliye 760), an upgraded R-74 variant with reduced cross-section for internal carriage. For longer ranged applications, two large R-37M (Izdeliye 810) beyond-visual-range missiles can be carried in each main weapons bay.

The main bays can also accommodate air-to-ground missiles such as the Kh-38M, as well as multiple 250 kg (550 lb) KAB-250 or 500 kg (1,100 lb) KAB-500 precision guided bombs. The aircraft is also expected to carry further developed and modified variants of Kh-35UE (AS-20 "Kayak") anti-ship missile and Kh-58UShK (AS-11 "Kilter") anti-radiation missile. For missions that do not require stealth, the T-50 can carry stores on its six external hardpoints. There is a possibility of the installation of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile on the PAK FA and its FGFA derivative; only one or two such missiles may be carried due to heavy weight of the BrahMos.

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## sancho



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## Gessler

sancho said:


> View attachment 200172
> 
> View attachment 200173
> 
> View attachment 200174



052 again!


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## sancho

Gessler said:


> 052 again!



Sadly, that's the only recent pics, not sure what that means.


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## PARIKRAMA

Cross posting
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 44



> media reports auguring an accelerated induction of Russian SU-50E – an export version of the – the Indian variant of the Russian T-50 PAK-FA – which would mean a ‘generation leap’ over the current IAF first line fighter jets as well as over the GEN-4.5 Rafale.
> 
> *Sukhoi sees this as an opportunity, since they have already paved the way with the SU-30 MKI currently produced in India. Sukhoi hopes the production of SU-50E and SU-55 (the two-seat Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft –FGFA) could continue where the production of SU-30 ends, providing a more manageable quality control process.*
> 
> *If this deal goes forward, the SU-50E is expected to be delivered from 2017 onwards with the IAF expected to induct over 300 aircraft in the following two decades at a cost of US$25 billion*. This is an extremely ambitious schedule, as the Russians themselves do not expect to receive their first SU-50 before the end of 2016. Currently undergoing flight testing as T-50 prototypes, the Russian Air Force expects forming 2-3 squadrons of fifth generation SU-50 by 2020.
> 
> The Indian export variants of the SU-50/55 are the biggest-ever bilateral Indo-Russian defence cooperation project. The preliminary design agreement on SU-50ES (FGFA), signed in 2010 between HAL and Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau, was to build the jet for use by both countries, with India investing 50 per cent of the cost of the multi-billion dollar programme.
> 
> Ditching Rafale – could mean a high risk alternative for IAF modernization | Defense Update:

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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


> *Zhuk AE (FGA 35) x-band , AESA Radar at Aero India 2015*





PARIKRAMA said:


> Cross posting
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 44


Scrap mmrca if we will get Pak FA by 2017 -18


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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> Scrap mmrca if we will get Pak FA by 2017 -18


It isn't as clear cut as this. 

The Rafale is essential and is on its way, of that have no doubt now.


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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


> It isn't as clear cut as this.
> 
> The Rafale is essential and is on its way, of that have no doubt now.


Yes am aware of the news of advancement with MMRCA . SO IF AM NOT MAY BE 

MIG 21 replaced with Tejas
Mirage will be replaced with Rafales
Jags are been replaced by Su35S 
AMCA for multirole missions later replacing MiG 29 
MKI will be upgraded later replaced with FGFA with even more upgrades .


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## Major Shaitan Singh




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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> Mirage will be replaced with Rafales


This doesn't make much sense mate, there are only about 50 Mirages in IAF serviceand they are all being upgraded as we speak so 126 Rafales to replace Mirages that will serve for another 15 years is not what is intended. The Rafale is intended to replace MiG-21s, MiG-27s and some Jaguar SQDs.

Su-35S is not coming to the IAF this is 100% guarenteed.


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## ptldM3

Got the image from Key Publishing Forum.

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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> Got the image from Key Publishing Forum.



A pic before the fire last year though.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> A pic before the fire last year though.



Yup,the infamous 055


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## PARIKRAMA

T-50-4 carrying R-73 and what looks like prototype ramjet Adders on underwing pylons:

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> T-50-4 carrying R-73 and what looks like prototype ramjet Adders on underwing pylons:



Sadly not, those are R77 and Kh31 mock ups.


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## PARIKRAMA

*In 2015, tests will be released three fifth-generation fighter*




PAK FA T-50
Photo: Oleg Harseev / "Kommersant"


In 2015, will test three new machines T-50, produced by the program a fifth generation fighter "Sukhoi PAK FA" (PAK FA). Told "Lente.ru" a source in the defense industry.

According to the source, the program is developed in the schedule, despite the break with the conclusion of the test on the new fighter prototype last year. However, in 2015 to begin testing three new flight instance.

"In 2014, the new machines to the test is not passed. This was due to the fact that the structure of the aircraft were made to refine the results of tests of the first five machines built before, "- said the source.

Fighter T-50 produced in the Sukhoi PAK FA program, first took to the skies in 2010. Since February 2014 fighter runs a program of joint state tests. At the moment, the number of copies of the flight to five machines.

Serial deliveries of the aircraft to the troops to begin in 2016. Earlier it was reported that the current state armaments program for delivery of the Air Force 60 production aircraft PAK FA program until 2020.

В 2015 году на испытания выйдут еще три истребителя пятого поколения: Оружие: Силовые структуры: Lenta.ru

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## ptldM3

I'm curious to see the new prototype, the static model has covered nacelles that appear to also have some lower after shaping. My guess is that the rear landing gear bays also got redesigned. I just hope that the new prototype does not have the same paint scheme as the 055.

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## he-man

ptldM3 said:


> as the 055.



055 had the best scheme at least from the below.


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## ptldM3

he-man said:


> 055 had the best scheme at least from the below.




If you like cars with flame stickers and cheap aluminum spoilers then i guess the 055 paint scheme is your taste. I like solid one color paint scheme that look clean and professional. I don't care for 055. Back to topic now.

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## he-man

ptldM3 said:


> If you like cars with flame stickers and cheap aluminum spoilers then i guess the 055 paint scheme is your taste. I like solid one color paint scheme that look clean and professional. I don't care for 055. Back to topic now.



Then u would love all russian stupid schemes especially the su-25 solid paint scheme


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## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> I'm curious to see the new prototype, the static model has covered nacelles that appear to also have some lower after shaping. My guess is that the rear landing gear bays also got redesigned.



It was difficult to see from the picturs we got so far, but would be great if true to finally don't discuss that issue anymore. The recent specboards from FGFA / PMF confirms 3D TVC, which means no shapped nozzles similar to the F22, but hopefully the Type 30 engine will have a saw tooth pattern to counter that issue. Why do you expect changes at the gear bays and do you have any infos when the final EW layout will be tested for the early Pak Fa? The placement of the maws and DIRCM below the cockpit seemed doesn't seem to make sense.


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## ptldM3

sancho said:


> It was difficult to see from the picturs we got so far, but would be great if true to finally don't discuss that issue anymore.




What was difficult to see the nacelle covering or the possible shaping change? The nacelles are definitely covered. As for the possible shaping change, its just speculation from pictures. Both nacelles seem to have some faceting on their lower inner design. We can see that the tarps on both the engines are tight meaning that it is not likely that the tarp is flapping around especially when we see the same faceting from two angles probably taken at different times.

Of course it could just be that the tarps are catching on some bolts or inserts meant to hold the tarps in place. 







sancho said:


> The recent specboards from FGFA / PMF confirms 3D TVC, which means no shapped nozzles similar to the F22, but hopefully the Type 30 engine will have a saw tooth pattern to counter that issue. *Why do you expect changes at the gear bays* and do you have any infos when the final EW layout will be tested for the early Pak Fa? The placement of the maws and DIRCM below the cockpit seemed doesn't seem to make sense.




Because everything else has serrations, refueling probe, access ports, weapons bays, and front gear bay, ect. It's obvious that the designers see the benefit in adding those serrations, so why would they leave the rear landing gear bay doors with no serrations when they put serrations on everything else? It makes sense that the nacelles were only temporary, so why bother designing and engineering bay doors that will likely need to be redesigned when the nacelles are redesigned? And no i have no info on the EW suit.


----------



## IND151

*Andrey Marshankin, Regional director of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) *said that *Indian Airforce (IAF) *is still keen on developing a Twin-Seat Configuration of FGFA, while it will also Induct single-seat FGFA variant and have not dropped plans to Procure Twin-Seat Configuration of FGFA as reported earlier by certain section of media .

Russian Air force don’t have such requirements and Russia had informed Indian officials that development will require major modification to keep airframe effectively Stealth which would drive up cost considerably to tune of $ 1 Billion as well as delay the programme .

*Russian officials also believe that adding a second seat is not necessary given the aircraft’s vastly improved capabilities over the current crop of 4++-Generation aircrafts like Sukhoi-30MKI* which have Twin-Seat Configuration and is the backbone of Indian air force fleet.

IAF has *already dropped Initial plans* to* Purchase* 214 (166 single-seaters and 48 twin-seaters) to *144 FGFA *now which will be built by HAL at its Nashik Plant in India, IAF is still is not revealed how many twin-seaters FGFA it wants and how many Single seater variant.

IAF in past also has questioned Russians reluctant to share critical design information with India; IAF’s deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), it’s top procurement official, had declared the FGFA’s engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India’s work share too low, and that the fighter’s price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Twin-Seat Configuration of FGFA, not Necessary: UAC Director | idrw.org



sancho said:


> It was difficult to see from the picturs we got so far, but would be great if true to finally don't discuss that issue anymore. The recent specboards from FGFA / PMF confirms 3D TVC, which means no shapped nozzles similar to the F22, but hopefully the Type 30 engine will have a *saw tooth pattern *to counter that issue. Why do you expect changes at the gear bays and do you have any infos when the final EW layout will be tested for the early Pak Fa? The placement of the maws and DIRCM below the cockpit seemed doesn't seem to make sense.



?????


----------



## sancho

ptldM3 said:


> What was difficult to see the nacelle covering or the possible shaping change? The nacelles are definitely covered. As for the possible shaping change, its just speculation from pictures. Both nacelles seem to have some faceting on their lower inner design. We can see that the tarps on both the engines are tight meaning that it is not likely that the tarp is flapping around especially when we see the same faceting from two angles probably taken at different times.



The shaping, I saw the pics too, but they gave just more room for speculation, rather than a proper view on how they shaped. 




ptldM3 said:


> Because everything else has serrations, refueling probe, access ports, weapons bays, and front gear bay, ect. It's obvious that the designers see the benefit in adding those serrations, so why would they leave the rear landing gear bay doors with no serrations when they put serrations on everything else? It makes sense that the nacelles were only temporary, so why bother designing and engineering bay doors that will likely need to be redesigned when the nacelles are redesigned? And no i have no info on the EW suit.



Since the front part of the gearbay is designed with shapings and angles to divert radar reflections and don't just use the standard gearbay of the Su 34 for example, which also folds in the same way. The Engine nacelles on the other side, are the same as on the Su 35s, without any shaping at all, so I would not expect a complete new gear bay, rather than a change at the end of it, alongside the changes that hopefully come with the engine nacelles.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*The fifth generation with a minus*

*Ministry of Defense is not ready to buy PAK FA in large quantities*

03/24/2015

*Yesterday Deputy Defense Minister for Armaments Yuri Borisov said that the military can buy a smaller number of fifth generation fighter T-50 (Sukhoi PAK FA - PAK FA) than planned in the state armament program until 2020.According to "Kommersant", the military zakontraktuyut only 12 fighters after their commissioning Decide how many aircraft of this type will be able to afford, although previously firmly expects to acquire 52 aircraft.*

On the reduction of procurement Mr. Borisov said during a visit to Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant. He stated that *"the company is ready to start serial production of fifth generation fighter since 2016". However, continued the Deputy Minister, Ministry of Defence reserves the right to revise the number of machines purchased. "In the new economic conditions of the original plans can be adjusted *- said on.- We'd better have a reserve in the form of PAK FA and the ability to then move forward to the end to squeeze everything possible out of 4+ generation fighters (Su-30 and Su-35. - *"b"* ). " President of the United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slusar said "Y" that the position of the Ministry of Defence agreed with the KLA.

According to a source "b" in the military, LG 2020 include the purchase of 52 T-50. "We even prescribed delivery schedule, - says the source" b ".- In the period 2016-2018's, the Russian Air Force would receive eight fighters each year, and in 2019-2020 years - already 14 aircraft of this type." These plans were actually feasible, he said, if it had not arisen in the country economic difficulties: "There is an understanding that to begin with we will sign a contract for the T-50 squadron (12 edinits.-*"b"* ). After that, we will decide how much they still need and how much we can afford. "In the KLA this information did not comment.

Work on the project PAK FA were launched in 2002, two years after the aircraft was presented to the President of Russia Vladimir Putin in the layout. In 2010, Mr Putin said that the first phase of the aircraft spent about 30 billion rubles., For the completion of the work, he said, required the same amount. During all this time it was created six flight prototype PAK FA. Mr. Borisov said yesterday that before the end of 2015, the military is still awaiting receipt of four fighters for testing. In addition, he said, the company will put the military in 2015. The multi-purpose Su-35 (14 units) and Su-30M2 (five aircraft).

Ъ-Газета - Пятое с минусом поколение

*India then has a chance and option to get 40 T50 from Russia by 2020 and focus on FGFA program and induct the rest based on completion of FGFA (phase 2 as per Russia with New engines as well) and upgrade the initially procured 40. 40 implies 2 squadrons incluisve of reserved fighters. This will help a lot in training and assimilating as well as address the quick dwindling numbers. I believe this can be an awesome chance for Su50 -I route and then procure and upgrade to Su55 I (FGFA)*

*Also attaching an old report of the Burning T50 issue*

*On the new fighter - old problems*
*T-50 burnt landing*
Yesterday at the airfield Gromov Flight Research Institute in the suburban Ramenskoye lit passes flight tests of fifth-generation fighter T-50, developed by JSC "Company" Sukhoi "." According to the company, the fire was quickly extinguished and after repair machine will continue to fly. C*ause of the accident could be a surge, which resulted in overheated to a dangerous temperature, the right engine. Anyway, two years ago a similar problem prevented the T-50 up in the air.*

According to reports the Sukhoi Design Bureau, yesterday afternoon the company experienced pilot, Hero of Russia Sergei Bogdan made another test flight of the T-50*.Being in the air, Mr. Bogdan apparently registered malfunction propulsion machinery and was forced to abort the test.* *According to eyewitnesses, already during landing fighter from the nozzle his right engine was smoke, and when T-50 stopped on the right wing appeared flame.*

Sergei Bogdan safely left the burning car, and after a few minutes the fighter filled with foam pre-caused fire to the landing site. *External injuries suffered as a result of a plane crash landing, fire extinguishing, were relatively small - flame burned out hole in the casing above the right engine and the fuselage in several places dirty soot.*

As reported by the JSC "Company" Sukhoi "," victim plane will be restored, his trial will continue, and the incident occurred yesterday will not affect the previously approved schedule of putting the T-50 into operation.

At the same time a source familiar with the situation "b" in the Gromov Flight Research Institute, refusing to comment on the details, said that the effects of fire on board the fighter has yet to be thoroughly explored. *The fact that the majority of T-elements 50 in contrast to previous generations of aircraft holds not metal, and composite materials, and as influenced by local overheating in the right engine supporting structure of the machine as a whole, it is difficult to say*.

Fire, according to some experts, could be due to the surge of the right engine in flight - a traffic violation fuel-air mixture in the turbine, accompanied by open burning on the exhaust. Engine operation in this mode results in a sharp loss of its power, overheating and damage.

*Recall that it was surging prevented the T-50 to make one of the missions in the air show MAKS-2011 - then still a fighter pilot during acceleration on the band saw escaping from the right nozzle flames, was forced to stop off and release the brake parachutes.As one of the possible reasons for the surge experts call malfunction automation T-50, is responsible for the dosing flow to the propulsion fuel.*

Note that in the OKB Sukhoi already has a Technical Commission that will establish the exact cause of the incident.

Ъ-Газета - На новом истребителе вЂ” старые проблемы


@Abingdonboy @sancho - Your views pls

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *The fifth generation with a minus*
> 
> *Ministry of Defense is not ready to buy PAK FA in large quantities*
> 
> 03/24/2015
> 
> *Yesterday Deputy Defense Minister for Armaments Yuri Borisov said that the military can buy a smaller number of fifth generation fighter T-50 (Sukhoi PAK FA - PAK FA) than planned in the state armament program until 2020.According to "Kommersant", the military zakontraktuyut only 12 fighters after their commissioning Decide how many aircraft of this type will be able to afford, although previously firmly expects to acquire 52 aircraft.*
> 
> On the reduction of procurement Mr. Borisov said during a visit to Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant. He stated that *"the company is ready to start serial production of fifth generation fighter since 2016". However, continued the Deputy Minister, Ministry of Defence reserves the right to revise the number of machines purchased. "In the new economic conditions of the original plans can be adjusted *- said on.- We'd better have a reserve in the form of PAK FA and the ability to then move forward to the end to squeeze everything possible out of 4+ generation fighters (Su-30 and Su-35. - *"b"* ). " President of the United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slusar said "Y" that the position of the Ministry of Defence agreed with the KLA.
> 
> According to a source "b" in the military, LG 2020 include the purchase of 52 T-50. "We even prescribed delivery schedule, - says the source" b ".- In the period 2016-2018's, the Russian Air Force would receive eight fighters each year, and in 2019-2020 years - already 14 aircraft of this type." These plans were actually feasible, he said, if it had not arisen in the country economic difficulties: "There is an understanding that to begin with we will sign a contract for the T-50 squadron (12 edinits.-*"b"* ). After that, we will decide how much they still need and how much we can afford. "In the KLA this information did not comment.
> 
> Work on the project PAK FA were launched in 2002, two years after the aircraft was presented to the President of Russia Vladimir Putin in the layout. In 2010, Mr Putin said that the first phase of the aircraft spent about 30 billion rubles., For the completion of the work, he said, required the same amount. During all this time it was created six flight prototype PAK FA. Mr. Borisov said yesterday that before the end of 2015, the military is still awaiting receipt of four fighters for testing. In addition, he said, the company will put the military in 2015. The multi-purpose Su-35 (14 units) and Su-30M2 (five aircraft).
> 
> Ъ-Газета - Пятое с минусом поколение
> 
> *India then has a chance and option to get 40 T50 from Russia by 2020 and focus on FGFA program and induct the rest based on completion of FGFA (phase 2 as per Russia with New engines as well) and upgrade the initially procured 40. 40 implies 2 squadrons incluisve of reserved fighters. This will help a lot in training and assimilating as well as address the quick dwindling numbers. I believe this can be an awesome chance for Su50 -I route and then procure and upgrade to Su55 I (FGFA)*
> 
> *Also attaching an old report of the Burning T50 issue*
> 
> *On the new fighter - old problems*
> *T-50 burnt landing*
> Yesterday at the airfield Gromov Flight Research Institute in the suburban Ramenskoye lit passes flight tests of fifth-generation fighter T-50, developed by JSC "Company" Sukhoi "." According to the company, the fire was quickly extinguished and after repair machine will continue to fly. C*ause of the accident could be a surge, which resulted in overheated to a dangerous temperature, the right engine. Anyway, two years ago a similar problem prevented the T-50 up in the air.*
> 
> According to reports the Sukhoi Design Bureau, yesterday afternoon the company experienced pilot, Hero of Russia Sergei Bogdan made another test flight of the T-50*.Being in the air, Mr. Bogdan apparently registered malfunction propulsion machinery and was forced to abort the test.* *According to eyewitnesses, already during landing fighter from the nozzle his right engine was smoke, and when T-50 stopped on the right wing appeared flame.*
> 
> Sergei Bogdan safely left the burning car, and after a few minutes the fighter filled with foam pre-caused fire to the landing site. *External injuries suffered as a result of a plane crash landing, fire extinguishing, were relatively small - flame burned out hole in the casing above the right engine and the fuselage in several places dirty soot.*
> 
> As reported by the JSC "Company" Sukhoi "," victim plane will be restored, his trial will continue, and the incident occurred yesterday will not affect the previously approved schedule of putting the T-50 into operation.
> 
> At the same time a source familiar with the situation "b" in the Gromov Flight Research Institute, refusing to comment on the details, said that the effects of fire on board the fighter has yet to be thoroughly explored. *The fact that the majority of T-elements 50 in contrast to previous generations of aircraft holds not metal, and composite materials, and as influenced by local overheating in the right engine supporting structure of the machine as a whole, it is difficult to say*.
> 
> Fire, according to some experts, could be due to the surge of the right engine in flight - a traffic violation fuel-air mixture in the turbine, accompanied by open burning on the exhaust. Engine operation in this mode results in a sharp loss of its power, overheating and damage.
> 
> *Recall that it was surging prevented the T-50 to make one of the missions in the air show MAKS-2011 - then still a fighter pilot during acceleration on the band saw escaping from the right nozzle flames, was forced to stop off and release the brake parachutes.As one of the possible reasons for the surge experts call malfunction automation T-50, is responsible for the dosing flow to the propulsion fuel.*
> 
> Note that in the OKB Sukhoi already has a Technical Commission that will establish the exact cause of the incident.
> 
> Ъ-Газета - На новом истребителе вЂ” старые проблемы
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @sancho - Your views pls


And this is being hyped up as a realistic and attractive alternative to the Rafale deal? The FGFA is STILL a paper plane with no good news coming out for a LONG time (despite what the honourable DM would like to claim) and more heavy and expensive (LCCs and to maintain) Su-30 class fighters with low availability is clearly not a viable option either.


My view? Sign the damn Rafale deal ASAP (within weeks) and let this drama with the Russians play out (as always happens with all Russian defence deals) otherwise the IAF will get scr*wed on all fronts.



Russians taking the pi$$ as usual........

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> And this is being hyped up as a realistic and attractive alternative to the Rafale deal? The FGFA is STILL a paper plane with no good news coming out for a LONG time (despite what the honourable DM would like to claim) and more heavy and expensive (LCCs and to maintain) Su-30 class fighters with low availability is clearly not a viable option either.
> 
> 
> My view? Sign the damn Rafale deal ASAP (within weeks) and let this drama with the Russians play out (as always happens with all Russian defence deals) otherwise the IAF will get scr*wed on all fronts.
> 
> 
> 
> Russians taking the pi$$ as usual........




Indeed a very valid point. if this is what ruskies had offered DM for cancelling rafale deal then how about the chance of signing rafale and taking 40 T50s together? I am sure budget is not a problem but possibly this may keep both sides happy and hopefully at least satisfied.

A side question, if russians order less, wont the price of jet per unit go up?


----------



## vostok

PARIKRAMA said:


> *The fifth generation with a minus*
> 
> *Ministry of Defense is not ready to buy PAK FA in large quantities*
> 
> 03/24/2015
> 
> *Yesterday Deputy Defense Minister for Armaments Yuri Borisov said that the military can buy a smaller number of fifth generation fighter T-50 (Sukhoi PAK FA - PAK FA) than planned in the state armament program until 2020.According to "Kommersant", the military zakontraktuyut only 12 fighters after their commissioning Decide how many aircraft of this type will be able to afford, although previously firmly expects to acquire 52 aircraft.*
> 
> On the reduction of procurement Mr. Borisov said during a visit to Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant. He stated that *"the company is ready to start serial production of fifth generation fighter since 2016". However, continued the Deputy Minister, Ministry of Defence reserves the right to revise the number of machines purchased. "In the new economic conditions of the original plans can be adjusted *- said on.- We'd better have a reserve in the form of PAK FA and the ability to then move forward to the end to squeeze everything possible out of 4+ generation fighters (Su-30 and Su-35. - *"b"* ). " President of the United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slusar said "Y" that the position of the Ministry of Defence agreed with the KLA.
> 
> According to a source "b" in the military, LG 2020 include the purchase of 52 T-50. "We even prescribed delivery schedule, - says the source" b ".- In the period 2016-2018's, the Russian Air Force would receive eight fighters each year, and in 2019-2020 years - already 14 aircraft of this type." These plans were actually feasible, he said, if it had not arisen in the country economic difficulties: "There is an understanding that to begin with we will sign a contract for the T-50 squadron (12 edinits.-*"b"* ). After that, we will decide how much they still need and how much we can afford. "In the KLA this information did not comment.
> 
> Work on the project PAK FA were launched in 2002, two years after the aircraft was presented to the President of Russia Vladimir Putin in the layout. In 2010, Mr Putin said that the first phase of the aircraft spent about 30 billion rubles., For the completion of the work, he said, required the same amount. During all this time it was created six flight prototype PAK FA. Mr. Borisov said yesterday that before the end of 2015, the military is still awaiting receipt of four fighters for testing. In addition, he said, the company will put the military in 2015. The multi-purpose Su-35 (14 units) and Su-30M2 (five aircraft).
> 
> Ъ-Газета - Пятое с минусом поколение
> 
> *India then has a chance and option to get 40 T50 from Russia by 2020 and focus on FGFA program and induct the rest based on completion of FGFA (phase 2 as per Russia with New engines as well) and upgrade the initially procured 40. 40 implies 2 squadrons incluisve of reserved fighters. This will help a lot in training and assimilating as well as address the quick dwindling numbers. I believe this can be an awesome chance for Su50 -I route and then procure and upgrade to Su55 I (FGFA)*
> 
> *Also attaching an old report of the Burning T50 issue*
> 
> *On the new fighter - old problems*
> *T-50 burnt landing*
> Yesterday at the airfield Gromov Flight Research Institute in the suburban Ramenskoye lit passes flight tests of fifth-generation fighter T-50, developed by JSC "Company" Sukhoi "." According to the company, the fire was quickly extinguished and after repair machine will continue to fly. C*ause of the accident could be a surge, which resulted in overheated to a dangerous temperature, the right engine. Anyway, two years ago a similar problem prevented the T-50 up in the air.*
> 
> According to reports the Sukhoi Design Bureau, yesterday afternoon the company experienced pilot, Hero of Russia Sergei Bogdan made another test flight of the T-50*.Being in the air, Mr. Bogdan apparently registered malfunction propulsion machinery and was forced to abort the test.* *According to eyewitnesses, already during landing fighter from the nozzle his right engine was smoke, and when T-50 stopped on the right wing appeared flame.*
> 
> Sergei Bogdan safely left the burning car, and after a few minutes the fighter filled with foam pre-caused fire to the landing site. *External injuries suffered as a result of a plane crash landing, fire extinguishing, were relatively small - flame burned out hole in the casing above the right engine and the fuselage in several places dirty soot.*
> 
> As reported by the JSC "Company" Sukhoi "," victim plane will be restored, his trial will continue, and the incident occurred yesterday will not affect the previously approved schedule of putting the T-50 into operation.
> 
> At the same time a source familiar with the situation "b" in the Gromov Flight Research Institute, refusing to comment on the details, said that the effects of fire on board the fighter has yet to be thoroughly explored. *The fact that the majority of T-elements 50 in contrast to previous generations of aircraft holds not metal, and composite materials, and as influenced by local overheating in the right engine supporting structure of the machine as a whole, it is difficult to say*.
> 
> Fire, according to some experts, could be due to the surge of the right engine in flight - a traffic violation fuel-air mixture in the turbine, accompanied by open burning on the exhaust. Engine operation in this mode results in a sharp loss of its power, overheating and damage.
> 
> *Recall that it was surging prevented the T-50 to make one of the missions in the air show MAKS-2011 - then still a fighter pilot during acceleration on the band saw escaping from the right nozzle flames, was forced to stop off and release the brake parachutes.As one of the possible reasons for the surge experts call malfunction automation T-50, is responsible for the dosing flow to the propulsion fuel.*
> 
> Note that in the OKB Sukhoi already has a Technical Commission that will establish the exact cause of the incident.
> 
> Ъ-Газета - На новом истребителе вЂ” старые проблемы
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @sancho - Your views pls


"Kommersant' is something like the tabloids. There was no such information in official media.

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## PARIKRAMA

vostok said:


> "Kommersant' is something like the tabloids. There was no such information in official media.




True the same article is being published in Russia & India report

Russian Air Force to buy fewer PAK FA fighter aircraft | Russia & India Report


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> if this is what ruskies had offered DM for cancelling rafale deal then how about the chance of signing rafale and taking 40 T50s together?


Forget that, the Rafale and the Russian "offers" are mutually exclusive and the DM knows this (and if he doesn't then God help India). Nothing the Russians have offered or could offer are worth dropping the Rafale deal now- NOTHING. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> I am sure budget is not a problem but possibly this may keep both sides happy and hopefully at least satisfied.


Budget isn't the issue but why should India throw money at the Russians just to "keep them happy"? Consistent delays, cost overruns and abysmal after-sales performance have demonstrated their commitment to India or lack thereof. India is their cash-cow, nothing more, no point in throwing good money after bad. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> A side question, if russians order less, wont the price of jet per unit go up?


Of course but what else is new- show me one Russian product India has bought in the past two decades that has been delivered on budget.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Forget that, the Rafale and the Russian "offers" are mutually exclusive and the DM knows this (and if he doesn't then God help India). Nothing the Russians have offered or could offer are worth dropping the Rafale deal now- NOTHING.
> 
> 
> Budget isn't the issue but why should India throw money at the Russians just to "keep them happy"? Consistent delays, cost overruns and abysmal after-sales performance have demonstrated their commitment to India or lack thereof. India is their cash-cow, nothing more, no point in throwing good money after bad.
> 
> 
> Of course but what else is new- show me one Russian product India has bought in the past two decades that has been delivered on budget.




Then the most silliest of the question -
What stops DM Parrikar who is empowered by PM Modi to clear the rafale deal for signing or confirming when PM visits France?


----------



## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Then the most silliest of the question -
> What stops DM Parrikar who is empowered by PM Modi to clear the rafale deal for signing or confirming when PM visits France?


Because the current delays have NOTHING to do with the Russian offer, nothing at all. The deal is working at its own pace and the talks are progressing between HAL and Dassualt (which seems to have been all but completed now) on the liability issue. The deal will be signed within a few weeks that is all but certain but it _*won't*_ be signed during Modi's visit- India doesn't sign defence deals like that.

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## jarves

Page no. 156.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> Indeed a very valid point. if this is what ruskies had offered DM for cancelling rafale deal then how about the chance of signing rafale and taking 40 T50s together? I am sure budget is not a problem but possibly this may keep both sides happy and hopefully at least satisfied.
> 
> A side question, if russians order less, wont the price of jet per unit go up?



The Russians surely won't offer 40 Pak Fa alone, but in a combination with more upgrade MKIs, only the combo of NG techs and capabilities and the comfort of more than a decade of good experience with the MKI would make it interesting enough for the government to see it as an alternative procurement for (not as a direct alternatative to the MMRCA, since neither the weight class-, nor the industrial requirements of the tender can be met otherwise). So 40 x Pak Fa directly from Russia + additional upgraded MKIs above the 272 we have on order, would at least fill the hyped number gap and give us a technical edge over the adversaries. 
I have stated this as as an option all the time, but that's more the worst case scenario or the back up plan and it's good to have such options, but at this point, with the industrial advantages of the deal in mind, the operational needs of IAF for a 2nd frontline fighter for the next 30 years and even Indias reputation on the line after so many years the tender is running, I highly doubt that the government can afford to go for more MKIs at least.
I still say, it MUST be one of the 2 shortlisted!

The offer of 40 x Pak Fa's is actually not new, Russian officials always wanted to sell some fighters from the Russian production lines to India too, but IAF rejected that so far and insisted on an own version that was developed according to their requiremens. The early Pak Fa is not acceptable for them, but I always said, that they should go for in in a leasing contract, once to shorten the time to set up the logistics and training, in preparation for FGFA, but also because China is developing fast and we can't affort to wait. Leasing Pak Fa's for 5 to 10 years then gives less risks for IAF, we neither have to pay the full cost of the fighter, now would we have to deal with later upgrades to implement everything from FGFA again.

However, the more worrysome part of the article is, that if true that Russia will go only for 12 early versions, the Ukraine crisis and the sanctions now seems to show the effects. And yes, the less they or we buy from the initially planned numbers, the higher the costs at the end. Difficult times are ahead of us!

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## Storm Force

Pak fa I fear is s inferior fifth fighter to both the American and chinease fighters in stealth abd Rcs terms. 

The chinease and Americans will have spent mire money on developing their fighters. Russia lacks money.

Also I think the rafale has far better cockpit sensor fusion than the pak fa and better weapons 

India needs to look to USA I think to bridge the gap

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## Kamil_baku

Storm Force said:


> Pak fa I fear is s inferior fifth fighter to both the American and chinease fighters in stealth abd Rcs terms.
> 
> The chinease and Americans will have spent mire money on developing their fighters. Russia lacks money.
> 
> Also I think the rafale has far better cockpit sensor fusion than the pak fa and better weapons
> 
> India needs to look to USA I think to bridge the gap


Japan is going to introduce its 5th generation fighter.. may be India should check it..


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## Storm Force

japans military ewuipment is more expendive than usa .
none starter


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## migflug

*Grounded? Russia’s answer to US next-gen fighter hits the skids.*
Published March 28, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: CSMONITOR







Russia’s ambitious T-50 fighter plane project was meant to develop a rival to two futuristic US jetfighters, the F-22 Raptor and the planned F-35 Lightning-II.

But now, the T-50 appears to be rivaling the F-35 another way: in development troubles. The Kremlin is slamming the brakes on its “fifth generation” fighter program and cutting its initial rollout to a quarter of those originally planned.

The decision seems a setback for Vladimir Putin’s sweeping $800 billion rearmament program, a vital component of the wider effort to restore Russia to its Soviet-era status as a major global superpower. However, the sharp slowdown in plans to procure the sophisticated new jet may represent an outbreak of wisdom on the part of Russian military chiefs, who will remember how the USSR was driven into bankruptcy by engaging in an all-out arms race with the US.Financial constraints are the key reason cited for cutting the military order from 52 to 12 of the planes over the next few years, according to the Moscow daily Kommersant.

“Given the new economic conditions, the original plans may have to be adjusted,” the paper quotes Deputy Defense Minister Yuriy Borisov as saying. The project to build a cutting-edge fighter plane, which is partly financed by India, will not be canceled, but held in abeyance while the Russian Air Force makes the most of its existing “fourth generation” MiG and Sukhoi combat aircraft, he added.

No one knows whether technical problems may also have played a role in the decision to shelve the fighter.

“We may suppose there are problems, but hard information is lacking,” says Alexander Golts, an independent military expert. “For instance, the prototypes of this plane have been using an old engine, pending the development of the engine it needs. Has that been developed yet? We have no idea.”

The only operational “fifth generation” fighter in the world is the US F-22. Its production was canceled in 2009, after fewer than 200 of the hyper-expensive planes had been built. American military services are now awaiting the arrival of the newer and also hugely overpriced F-35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, but that program has been dogged with serious delays and technical failures.

The T-50, an advanced stealth plane with many capabilities lacking in previous fighters, has prompted some alarm in the West. The Russians have presented the project as an example of how they are able to leapfrog over the lost years, after Russia’s military-industrial complex collapsed along with the Soviet Union, and field 21st century weapons that can rival the best the US has to offer.

Most of the weaponry that’s currently in Russia’s military inventory are Soviet-era designs that have evolved to incorporate new technology. Only three projects currently in the testing phase have been entirely developed by post-Soviet Russia. They are the T-50, the recently unveiled T-14 Armata tank, and the Bulava submarine-launched ballistic missile.

Recent reports suggest that Russian military brass have also decided to slash orders for the new Armata tank, and instead continue using older, Soviet-designed models for a few more years.

There is no word on the fate of other grand projects that Russian military leaders have claimed to have on the drawing boards. These include plans for a super-sized aircraft carrier that would dwarf the US Nimitz class, andan enormous supersonic transport plane that could deliver up to 400 tanks anywhere in the world.

“Despite all these soaring plans, I think we see a bit of reason taking hold in the Russian military establishment,” says Mr. Golts. “Even if there were no economic crisis, and no sanctions, this massively expensive rearmament program would not be what Russia needs right now. Scaling it back is a wise move.”

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## sathya

India want deliveries within 36 months,

Russia cutting down production rates,

Something is not right..


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## Kinetic

Storm Force said:


> Pak fa I fear is s inferior fifth fighter to both the American and chinease fighters in stealth abd Rcs terms.
> 
> The chinease and Americans will have spent mire money on developing their fighters. Russia lacks money.
> 
> Also I think the rafale has far better cockpit sensor fusion than the pak fa and better weapons
> 
> India needs to look to USA I think to bridge the gap



U r 100% wrong. Russia did r&do on such technologies much more than others. Look at history. China is a new player and still heavily depending on Russia.

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## ptldM3

Storm Force said:


> Pak fa I fear is s inferior fifth fighter to both the American and chinease fighters in stealth abd Rcs terms.







Your "fear" is not a valid source. Even if the pak-fa has a larger RCS then both of those aircraft you mentioned, it would not be the end of the world or mean that it is worse. The pak-fa is designed the be an all around aircraft, meant to have reduce RCS, long range, super cruise, high maneuverability and many other innovations.

Aircraft like the J-20 may have similar range to the pak-fa but it will also be far heavier and less maneuverable due to the aircraft's large mass, particularly the fuselage's large mass.


A specular test that Kopp did at 150 MHz, elev 45, Azm 315 shows that the pak-fa does considerably betterthen the J-20, at other frequencies or angles the J-20 better, and yet at other angles and frequencies the pak-fa does slightly better. Colors are represented by db levels. 
















Storm Force said:


> The chinease and Americans will have spent mire money on developing their fighters. Russia lacks money.





Spending more money does not solve the problem, the F-35 is massively over budget, for many reasons including constant defects and well known company mismanagement, not to mention the F-35 program is actually 3 different programs. As for the J-20 no one knows what the budget on it is is, nor does it matter.








Storm Force said:


> Also I think the rafale has far better cockpit sensor fusion than the pak fa and better weapons
> 
> India needs to look to USA I think to bridge the gap




You can think whatever you like but there is no basis for what you think, people have always doubted Russia, there are Russian stereotypes that go back to the cold war that Russians are dull, unimaginative and lack innovation but in reality Russia has been an innovator and pioneer in many fields. You sound a lot like the typical doubters, for years we have heard that the Armata program will be cancelled, we have heard that an unmanned turret is too complex, Russia does not have the know how, it requires too much automation, and so on. And then photos like this surfaced:









My gwad how did the russkies do that? It's not possible, it must be a fake, even if it's real it's A-10 lunch.

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## migflug

sathya said:


> India want deliveries within 36 months,
> 
> Russia cutting down production rates,
> 
> Something is not right..


I think we should buy those extra 42. It can be upgraded to fgfa later on and also help russia to revive . Otherwise pak fa will be doomed which is certainly nt good for us as it is the only option for us in next 15 years


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## sathya

migflug said:


> I think we should buy those extra 42. It can be upgraded to fgfa later on and also help russia to revive . Otherwise pak fa will be doomed which is certainly nt good for us as it is the only option for us in next 15 years



We can buy either rafale or pak fa, definitely not both

It's upto the seller to make the offer that India can't refuse..


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## Storm Force

I would love for pak fa to come in asap. I just fear Indian indecision


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## #hydra#

ptldM3 said:


> Your "fear" is not a valid source. Even if the pak-fa has a larger RCS then both of those aircraft you mentioned, it would not be the end of the world or mean that it is worse. The pak-fa is designed the be an all around aircraft, meant to have reduce RCS, long range, super cruise, high maneuverability and many other innovations.
> 
> Aircraft like the J-20 may have similar range to the pak-fa but it will also be far heavier and less maneuverable due to the aircraft's large mass, particularly the fuselage's large mass.
> 
> 
> A specular test that Kopp did at 150 MHz, elev 45, Azm 315 shows that the pak-fa does considerably betterthen the J-20, at other frequencies or angles the J-20 better, and yet at other angles and frequencies the pak-fa does slightly better. Colors are represented by db levels.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 208374
> View attachment 208375
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spending more money does not solve the problem, the F-35 is massively over budget, for many reasons including constant defects and well known company mismanagement, not to mention the F-35 program is actually 3 different programs. As for the J-20 no one knows what the budget on it is is, nor does it matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can think whatever you like but there is no basis for what you think, people have always doubted Russia, there are Russian stereotypes that go back to the cold war that Russians are dull, unimaginative and lack innovation but in reality Russia has been an innovator and pioneer in many fields. You sound a lot like the typical doubters, for years we have heard that the Armata program will be cancelled, we have heard that an unmanned turret is too complex, Russia does not have the know how, it requires too much automation, and so on. And then photos like this surfaced:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 208376
> 
> 
> 
> My gwad how did the russkies do that? It's not possible, it must be a fake, even if it's real it's A-10 lunch.


Even first pilotless landing was done by Russians, with buran space shuttle.westerners took followed the same after 2 decades


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## ptldM3

Got the following picture off of key pub. Courtesy of Jo Asakura. 052 prototype has some changes, it appears the cutout behind the canopy is covered, there is also another object, mostly likely a temporary test sensor.

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## Kinetic

Any one forgot S37 & MFI? Those are the first 5th gen fighters along with US. Russia and US are in different league. Much ahead of others.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Russia to Sell 127 FGFA fighter aircrafts to India*
Posted on April 16, 2015 by Jonathan Wade, CD in News, Russia // 0 Comments

Russia has signed a contract with India to provide them with 127 Fifth Generation Fighting Aircraft (FGFA), an aircraft designed on the Russian PAK FA 5th generation multirole fighter aircrafts. The contract is evaluated at more than $25 billion Euros.

The news comes at a good time since the Russian Armed Forces dramatically decreased its PAK FA order due to economical issues. The original order was 52 T-50 but was reduced to 12. Russia will instead concentrate on 4++ generation fighters such as the Sukhoi Su-30 and the Su-35.

Russia will deliver its first FGFA in 36 months instead of the previous estimation of 94 months. After the first batch built in Russia, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will takeover the production under transfer of technology.

*The FGFA will be a two-seater fighter instead of a one-seater for the T-50. The FGFA will also be armed with Indian-made Astra, a beyond-visual-range missile (BVR). An additional 43 improvements such as stealth, supercruise, sensors, networking and combat avionics will be applied to the FGFA.*





India orders 127 FGFA 5th gen fighter aircrafts. Infographics: Niyaz Karim. Datas: hal-india.com

*India was considering buying 126 French Rafale but only 36 will join the Indian Air Force. Modi and Putin met last December and spoke about the non-delivery of the Mistral LHD due to the ongoing Ukrainian conflict. India have turned its back on France due to the failed delivery of the Mistral LHDs to Russia. That said, India also has concerns on the future delivery of Rafale parts based on the possibility of having the United States putting pressure on France to limits its exportation to India.*

We can say Putin got his revenge on France’s decision to not deliver the Mistral.

Russia is also the oldest and most important military partner of India. Both countries have cooperated on many military projects, including the FGFA. The Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi told Russian President Vladimir Putin that India would keep Russia has its primary partner in defence materiel.

The first FGFA are planned to be operational in 2016.

India is currently spending more than $40 billion on defence annually (1.84% of its GDP) and holds the 9th rank when it comes to military spending. India is also the world’s largest weapon’s importer.

The $25 billion Euros deal will likely bolster an already solid relationship between India and Russia.
Russia to Sell 127 FGFA fighter aircrafts to India | The Sentinel

@vostok
Can you confirm this news?

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## vostok

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Russia to Sell 127 FGFA fighter aircrafts to India*
> Posted on April 16, 2015 by Jonathan Wade, CD in News, Russia // 0 Comments
> 
> Russia has signed a contract with India to provide them with 127 Fifth Generation Fighting Aircraft (FGFA), an aircraft designed on the Russian PAK FA 5th generation multirole fighter aircrafts. The contract is evaluated at more than $25 billion Euros.
> 
> The news comes at a good time since the Russian Armed Forces dramatically decreased its PAK FA order due to economical issues. The original order was 52 T-50 but was reduced to 12. Russia will instead concentrate on 4++ generation fighters such as the Sukhoi Su-30 and the Su-35.
> 
> Russia will deliver its first FGFA in 36 months instead of the previous estimation of 94 months. After the first batch built in Russia, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will takeover the production under transfer of technology.
> 
> *The FGFA will be a two-seater fighter instead of a one-seater for the T-50. The FGFA will also be armed with Indian-made Astra, a beyond-visual-range missile (BVR). An additional 43 improvements such as stealth, supercruise, sensors, networking and combat avionics will be applied to the FGFA.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India orders 127 FGFA 5th gen fighter aircrafts. Infographics: Niyaz Karim. Datas: hal-india.com
> 
> *India was considering buying 126 French Rafale but only 36 will join the Indian Air Force. Modi and Putin met last December and spoke about the non-delivery of the Mistral LHD due to the ongoing Ukrainian conflict. India have turned its back on France due to the failed delivery of the Mistral LHDs to Russia. That said, India also has concerns on the future delivery of Rafale parts based on the possibility of having the United States putting pressure on France to limits its exportation to India.*
> 
> We can say Putin got his revenge on France’s decision to not deliver the Mistral.
> 
> Russia is also the oldest and most important military partner of India. Both countries have cooperated on many military projects, including the FGFA. The Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi told Russian President Vladimir Putin that India would keep Russia has its primary partner in defence materiel.
> 
> The first FGFA are planned to be operational in 2016.
> 
> India is currently spending more than $40 billion on defence annually (1.84% of its GDP) and holds the 9th rank when it comes to military spending. India is also the world’s largest weapon’s importer.
> 
> The $25 billion Euros deal will likely bolster an already solid relationship between India and Russia.
> Russia to Sell 127 FGFA fighter aircrafts to India | The Sentinel
> 
> @vostok
> Can you confirm this news?


Not yet.

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## PARIKRAMA

vostok said:


> Not yet.


no signing or news not confirmed?


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## vostok

PARIKRAMA said:


> no signing or news not confirmed?


the news not confirmed

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## migflug

SOURCE: RUSSIA & INDIA REPORT







Prime Minister Narendra Modi cut the Gordian knot of the US $ 25 billion ‘Mother-of-all-deals’ for the acquisition of 126 MMRCA by announcing in Paris last week that India will directly buy 36 Rafale fighters from the French aviation maker Dassault in fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract.

Simultaneously, in New Delhi, his Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar confirmed in a press interview that G2G was the best option for the acquisition of strategic weapon platforms like the fighter aircraft and the lowest bidder (L1) was decided by “questionable life-cycle cost” factor of which even his UPA predecessor A K Antony was not even so sure.

This reminds me of Defence Minister Antony’s Moscow visit in October 2007 to co-chair the annual session of India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on military-technical cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) at which the two countries had signed the agreement for the joint development of a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), with the aim to induct the futuristic stealth fighter by 2016-17.

“Why waste so much money on an older 4th generation plane, which will join the IAF almost simultaneously with next generation FGFA and advanced version of indigenous LCA Tejas?,” Dr Konstantin Makiyenko, Deputy Director of the Moscow-based independent Centre for Analyses of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) asked.

Although Russian 4++ generation MiG-35 was also a strong contender at that time for the Indian tender, Makiyenko however, argued that it would be prudent to go for a stop-gap arrangement like buying additional Mirage 2000 and upgraded MiG-29 already in service with IAF and divert the funds on the development of FGFA and LCA Tejas to replace ageing MiG-21 fighters.

Eight years later, we are coming back to the solution the Russian expert had proposed back in 2007. Defence Minister Parrikar has also not ruled out that to meet the operational requirements of IAF, India could buy more fighters along the G2G route, including additional Sukhoi Su-30MKI, which also fits in the ‘Make in India’ policy as they are already being assembled by HAL.

Very few people know the actual tale of the development of state-of-the-art multirole fighter Su-30MKI, where ‘I’ stands for India. It has been hogging the limelight ever since it was first inducted by the Indian Air Force.

But there is an interesting tale behind the birth of this warbird; how, for the first time in its history, the Indian Air Force got a fighter jet tailored to meet its specific requirements for decades to come. Not many are aware that, like deadly BrahMos cruise missile, Su-30MKI (Multirole, Commercial, Indian version), is also an embodiment of the vision and foresight of India’s ‘missile man’ and (now former) President Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, who spares no effort in reiterating his immense faith in Russia’s technological prowess.

In 1994, ahead of the Moscow visit of then Indian Prime Minister PV Narasimha Rao, Russian state arms exporter ‘Rosvorouzhenie’ (predecessor of Rosoboronexport) invited journalists for a briefing on Indo-Russian defence cooperation.

It was a challenging time for India, which was deeply concerned at the absence of critical spares to keep its fighters flying, warships cruising and tanks rolling as the Russian industrial complex lay in shambles in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Many ordnance factories had gone to the 14 independent states, which broke away from the USSR.

In this backdrop the press was told that Moscow was going to offer India its latest Su-30 fighter and the Russian government has invited a senior IAF official to discuss the issue.

An old friend, representing HAL in Moscow, argued that no such plane exists and said Air Vice- Marshal S. Krishnaswamy would be arriving to evaluate Su-27 fighter, which was the best the Soviets had developed to counter US F-15 Eagle.

Eventually, India signed the initial Sukhoi deal worth US $ 1.8 billion with Russia’s Rosoboronexport (formerly Rosvorouzhenie) State Arms Trading Corporation on November 30,1996 for the purchase of 40 Su-30K planes and development of ‘MKI’ version and its subsequent license production in India.

At that time diplomats said that it was a major departure from the ‘buyer-seller’ relationship in defence with Russia and a confident step for transition to joint research and development of cutting edge weapon systems and platforms.

It was on August 15, 2002 that I got a call from the Kremlin press office inviting me to a tour of the Sukhoi Design Bureau with President Vladimir Putin two days later. Naturally the invitation was accepted with gratitude.

Sukhoi’s T-50 PAK-FA project had just won the race for the development of a futuristic –fifth generation fighter aircraft by defeating its rival MiG’s similar project, and there was a buzz about China and India taking interest in joining the Russian project.

As we were waiting for the President to arrive, Mikhail Simonov, the erstwhile chief designer of Sukhoi, who personally knew me, walked up to me and said that he would tell me the true story:

“When AVM Krishnaswamy came to our design bureau in 1994, he simply blasted our Su-27 fighter, considered the best in the West. I was very upset, given the fact that I was under probe on the alleged charges of treason for selling Su-27 fighters to China, I was rather depressed. So, I decided not to attend the evening reception hosted by the Indian Air Attaché in honour of Krishnaswamy,” recounted Simonov (1929-2011).

“However, my deputy persuaded me to go. I rang the bell of the Air Attaché’s apartment and Krishnaswamy opened the door with a welcoming smile. I saw a flower vase on a side table and was told to bring another of similar size and pour vodka in both of them. I gulped down one vase with vodka and challenged the Indian Air Marshal to follow suit, if he wanted me to come in and have serious discussions. Hats off! He did exactly what I requested and we got down to work and you see the result – the world’s best multi-role fighter. This also freed me from the ‘treason’ charges, since I invested the entire proceeds from the sale of Su-27 fighters to China for the development of absolutely new fighter with multiple roles,” he recounted.

“The Su-30MKI is the joint product of Sukhoi and IAF designers and engineers. The rich experience of joint development has enabled us to pick India as the partner in the fifth generation fighter aircraft on the basis of PAK-FA T-50 project,” said Simonov proudly, looking like a hefty Don Cossack out of (Mikhail) Sholokhov’s Nobel prize winning novel ‘And Quiet Flows the Don’ ”.

Now with the Rafale knot cut, other projects held up by it, like the FGFA, could be hastened and defence cooperation begin to gather pace.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Warplanes: No Tears For The T-50*

April 21, 2015: In late March Russia finally admitted that they were having serious problems with their new “5th generation” T-50 (or PAK-FA) stealth fighter. The admission came in the form of a decision to cut the number of production T-50s to be built by the end of the decade from 52 to 12. Russia already has five development models of the T-50 flying, although one was damaged in a fire. The Russian announcement did not cover specific reasons for the change. But Indian Air Force officials have been criticizing the progress of the T-50 program for over a year. This aircraft is the Russian answer to the U.S. F-22 and according to the Indians, who have contributed $300 million (so far) to development of the T-50, they are entitled by the 2007 agreement with Russian to have access to technical details. The Russians were accused to refusing to provide development updates as often and in as much detail the Indians expected. The Indians know from experience that when the Russians clam up about a military project it is usually because the news is bad and the Russians would rather not share.

The Russian problems were not new because it was in late 2013 that Indian pilots and aviation experts who had examined Russian progress noted that the T-50 as it was then put together was unreliable. The Russian radar, which promised so much has delivered, according to the Indians, insufficient performance. The Indians also noted that the T-50s stealth features were unsatisfactory. *Instead of answers to these questions all the Indians got until early 2015 were excuses and promises. Russia insisted this is all a misunderstanding, until now.*

*Now the Russians are trying to portray the T-50 as a specialist aircraft to be built in small numbers.* This is what the United States ended up doing with the F-22. That decision was triggered by development problems and a final price per aircraft that was deemed (by Congress) too high to be affordable. The less expensive F-35 is moving in the same direction despite years of U.S. Air Force assurances that the F-35 benefitted from the F-22 experience. That was true, but the benefit did not bring the F-35 cost down sufficiently to prevent reductions in the number to be built. While only 195 F-22s were built, more than ten times of F-35s are to be built. But that is less than the planned amount. Originally 750 F-22s were planned, with no exports allowed. The F-35 is to be exported and it was hoped that a thousand or more would be sold overseas. But the rising cost of development and production is leading to reductions in U.S. and foreign orders.

The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton Su-27 it will replace, has much better electronics, is stealthy and can cruise at above the speed of sound. Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile). The problem the Indians have is that the improvements do not appear to be worth the additional investment. The T-50 costs at least 50 percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a bare bones model, at least 50 percent more with all the options), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the American F-15.

*The T-50 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22 because the Russian aircraft is not as stealthy. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there other than the F-22.* If such a T-50 was sold for under $100 million each there would be a lot of buyers. But it looks like the T-50 will cost more. For the moment the T-50 and the Chinese J-20 (and J-31) are the only potential competitors for the F-22 that are in development.

Like the F-22, T-50 development expenses are increasing, and it looks like the T-50 will cost at least $120 million each (including a share of the development cost) but only if 500 or more are manufactured. Russia hopes to build as many as a thousand. Few F-22s were built because of the high cost. American developers are now seeking to apply their stealth, and other technologies, to the development of combat UAVs. Thus, by the time the T-50 enters service at the end of the decade it may already be made obsolete by cheaper, unmanned, stealthy fighters. The United States, Russia, and China are all working on applying stealth technology to combat UAVs. Thus the mass produced 6th generation unmanned fighter may be the aircraft that replaces most current fighters

The T-50 flew for the first time in January 2010, 13 years after the F-22 did so. Once the T-50 flew it was believed that the first 70 production models would be ordered by 2016 and be delivered by the end of the decade. The order number was later reduced to 52 and now it is 12. Some of the prototypes were to be handed over to the Russian Air Force or testing but that has not happened yet.

Russians and Indians have been doing a lot of tinkering since the first T-50 flew. While the T-50 is the stealthiest aircraft the Russians have, it is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, or even the F-35 or B-2. *The Russians are apparently going to emphasize maneuverability instead of stealth. India wants more stealth and would prefer a two-seat aircraft. The problems with the T-50 engines and the defensive electronics are proving difficult to solve. This puts the T-50 at a big disadvantage against the F-22 or F-35, which try to detect enemy aircraft at long distance, without being spotted, and then fire a radar guided missile (like AMRAAM). These problems are apparently the main reason for the delays.*

The Russians want to export their "Fifth Generation Fighter" (which they admit is not true 5th Gen) to India and other foreign customers. With the Indian participation, Russia now has the billions of dollars it will take to carry out the T-50 development program. India is not just contributing cash but also technology and manufacturing capability. China is unlikely to be a customer because they have two “stealth fighter” designs in development and flying. India is too heavily invested to easily withdraw from the T-50 effort, but that might change if it becomes obvious that the T-50 development is going to get a lot more expensive and take a lot longer. Russia has already told its air force generals to prepare for a future full of Su-30s. This also bothers the Indians, who are having lots of unexpected reliability and performance with their two hundred or so Su-30s.

Warplanes: No Tears For The T-50

_An article only highlighting negative side of T 50_

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## ptltejas

Angolan Air Force to get IAF used Sukhoi-30's

In 1996, the Indian Air Force signed a deal with Russia for the delivery of 40 Su-30K fighters. These twin-seater jets had a considerable differences from Su-3OMKI like they lacked thrust vectoring and had no canards. Also the avionics were inferior. The delivery concluded in 1999. 

After Russia offered much advanced Su-30MKI multirole fighters, the Indians returned their Su-30K fighters. These returned Su-30K jets are being upgraded in Belarus on behalf of Russia for the Angolan Air Force.

Facebook

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
08-May, 2015 17:37 IST 

*Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft *

Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) is a joint Design and Development (D&D) programme between India and Russia. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) from Indian side and M/s Rosboronexport from the Russian side signed the Preliminary Design Contract on 21st December 2010. The Preliminary Design phase of the project has been completed by June, 2013. 

Under the Preliminary Design Contract, the expenditure committed so far, is Rs. 1,418.91 crore. 

The delivery of the FGFA to the Indian Air Force is on conclusion of the Research & Development (R&D) phase. As per the draft R&D Contract, the delivery of FGFA can commence after 94 months from the start of the contract. The Contract has not yet been signed. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Sumedhanand Sarswati in Lok Sabha today.

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## halupridol

A Su 30MKI aircraft crashed in Assam,,,,flew frm Tezpur airbase..


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## Hindustani78

halupridol said:


> A Su 30MKI aircraft crashed in Assam,,,,flew frm Tezpur airbase..



Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft crashes in Assam; pilot, co-pilot safe - The Economic Times

TEZPUR: A Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft today crashed at Laokhowa in Nagaon district of Assam *with both the pilot and co-pilot ejecting safely.*

The Su-30 fighter aircraft, flying from Tezpur's Salanibari Air Force station on a routine sortie, lost connection with the radar at the airforce station at around 12.30 PM and crashed thereafter, a Defence spokesman said here.

The aircraft had developed a technical problem and the pilot was forced to abandon the aircraft, he said. .. 

Both the pilots ejected safely and the* aircraft crashed at Laokhowa* near here.

A Court of Inquiry has been ordered to ascertain the cause of the accident, the spokesman added.

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## Major Shaitan Singh



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## Salza

Hindustani78 said:


> Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft crashes in Assam; pilot, co-pilot safe - The Economic Times
> 
> TEZPUR: A Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft today crashed at Laokhowa in Nagaon district of Assam *with both the pilot and co-pilot ejecting safely.*
> 
> The Su-30 fighter aircraft, flying from Tezpur's Salanibari Air Force station on a routine sortie, lost connection with the radar at the airforce station at around 12.30 PM and crashed thereafter, a Defence spokesman said here.
> 
> The aircraft had developed a technical problem and the pilot was forced to abandon the aircraft, he said. ..
> 
> Both the pilots ejected safely and the* aircraft crashed at Laokhowa* near here.
> 
> A Court of Inquiry has been ordered to ascertain the cause of the accident, the spokesman added.



Another Su-30 crash. Poor maintenance problems ? Good that pilots were saved


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## ejaz007

*India Compromises To Smooth FGFA Disputes*

NEW DELHI — Ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Russia on July 7, the Defence Ministry is toning down points of conflict about the joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to reach final agreement with Russia, said an MoD source.

FGFA is proposed to be jointly developed and produced by India and Russia and a preliminary development agreement was signed in 2011 between Russia's United Aircraft Corp. (UAC) and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) when India paid its 50 percent share of US $250 million toward initial development cost.

However, a final agreement, which will release a payment of about $6 billion as India's share in FGFA development, has yet to be inked because of conflict over issues relating to work share, a firm aircraft order from the Indian Air Force, its desired mix of single- and double-seat aircraft, and changes demanded by the Indian Air Force.

The Defence Ministry wants to reach an agreement, will not insist on the Indian work share at this stage and will agree to delivery of single-seater aircraft as against the earlier demand of two-seaters, the source added.

A firm order of 154 FGFAs will also be included in the draft agreement, the source said.

Defense analysts said that despite the delays, the FGFA project will not be dropped.

"At this juncture, given the unfolding international geopolitics and Russia's fast-depleting defense export order books, it is highly unlikely that Russia would take a

take-it-or-leave-it stand. FGFA is a landmark, collaborative, futuristic defense project that would doubtless benefit both countries," Kapil Kak, a retired Indian Air Force air vice marshal and defense analyst, said.

India-Russia FGFA collaboration benefits both counties, he said.

"Russia required FGFA for its industry to stay competitive with the Western systems, reduce development cost and guarantee an export customer; India saw it as a means to address the IAF–People's Liberation Army Air Force imbalance and impart a measure of resonance to its combat aircraft development programs."

A Russian diplomat here said India's concern about low work share can be addressed and its workload gradually increased as Indian industry is better able to absorb technology and produce components for the aircraft in the years ahead.

The FGFA is based on the Russian T-50 platform and is already in prototype stage for use by the Russian Air Force and could be inducted in 2016 or 2017.

India wants about 40 changes to the Russian prototype and has a preference for a double-seater.

However, the main sticking point has been resolving a dispute over an increase in India's work share in the FGFA from the current level of less than 20 percent to 50 percent. The increase in work share would help the Indian aerospace industry get additional orders for the fighter.

"Signing of the contract is mainly based on agreement on work share on research and development. While Russians have already taken the lead in this and the Russian prototypes are already flying, there appears to be deadlock on this aspect between HAL and Rosoboronexport on behalf of UAC," Daljit Singh, a retired Air Force air marshal, said.

"The work share would have to be finalized fast to get the project on track. Delay in this also dilutes the authority of the Indian side to have a say in major design of the aircraft. Final agreement can [be reached] if the contracts between the two agencies are signed," Singh said.

While defense analysts and Air Force officers agree on India's urgent need for the FGFA, they don't want the parameters recommended by the service to be diluted to rush the deal.

"Given that India entered the project after the FGFA design had been frozen and prototypes were flying, any changes would face constraints. But India is going ahead with plans to fit indigenous avionics, navigation-communication systems, aero-structures and other components," Kak said.

Singh says the essential features of the FGFA for both Russia and India will remain the same.

"The basic design of the aircraft is based on stealth, super-cruise and super-maneuverability features, and this would remain as the base design," Singh said. "Therefore aircraft structure and power plant would be the same for both air forces and that would also ensure lower R&D costs. The IAF would be looking at some of its own requirements of sensors, avionics and weapon carriage capability. These issues are required to be finalized and mutually agreed and then the project would move much faster."

However, Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, retired Indian air marshal, said the service wants a greater share in development and production to give it an indigenous look.

"IAF questions the indigenous development aspect in this skewed ratio. The AL-41 engine, which is supposed to power the FGFA, is not yet developed. AL-31, which powers the Su-30 MK, is not capable of supersonic cruise. Avionics, including active electronically scanned array radar, do not have any visibility."

At this stage, does India have any other options?

"This appears to be an academic question at this stage. It is too late in the day for India to explore other options given the extreme complexity and huge costs involved in an FGFA program," Kak said. "The indigenous FGFA, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA], still on the drawing board, is an excellent alternative provided it follows a better trajectory than the delay-ridden indigenous Light Combat Aircraft project. An AMCA success would also signal the arrival of India on the global aerospace industry market as another manufacturer of FGFA aircraft after the US, Russia and China."

Ahluwalia offered various options.

"Considering the anticipated delay in the project and to avoid any shortfalls in the IAF force levels, the options include: develop the indigenous AMCA; LCA MK II development would be indicative of capability; consider increased procurement of Rafale or F-35; propose to purchase 18 T-50s off the shelf and subsequently assess the probability of success of the FGFA," he said.

Email: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com

India Compromises To Smooth FGFA Disputes

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## The_Sidewinder

Its imperetive for India that PAKFA or FGFA process becomes a success. Other wise, significant advsntage over our neighbours may be lost.


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## migflug

*Russia to Begin Testing Three More Stealth Fighter Prototypes*
Published June 17, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : FOX NEWS






United Aircraft Corp. plans to deliver three more prototypes of an advanced stealth fighter jet to the Russian military for testing as early as next year, a company official said.

The president of the Moscow-based company, Yuri Slyusar, said three more of the T-50 PAK-FA, a fifth-generation stealth fighter made by United Aircraft subsidiary Sukhoi, will be transferred to the Russian air force in late 2016 or early 2016 as part of a test program.

“We can say that we are in the schedule and these three additional prototypes will allow us to greatly expand the testing program and do it faster,” he said through a translator during a briefing with reporters Monday at the Paris Air Show. “What we’re speaking about in the schedule is to deliver the first batch at the end of 2016, beginning of 2017 to the customer, the ministry of defense, so the aircraft demonstrate all necessary and design characteristics.”

That will bring the total number of T-50 prototypes to eight, according to a fact sheet distributed at the event. The PAK-FA first flew in 2011 and is designed to compete against such U.S. military aircraft as the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, both of which are made by Lockheed Martin Corp.

“Compared to the previous generation fighters, the PAK-FA combines the functions of a strike aircraft and a fighter, thus offering a number of unique capabilities,” the fact sheet states. “As the fifth-generation aircraft, it has an essentially new thoroughly integrated avionics package providing superior automatic control and intelligence support.”

While the T-50 has experienced some development challenges such as engine flameouts, the aircraft is performing well in tests, according to Slyusar.

“The aircraft demonstrates all necessary and design characteristics, so we can say that there is no risk in the program moving it forward and the aircraft meets all the specifications that were initially planned,” he said. “There’s no risk in delays whatsoever.”

The governments of Russia and India have partnered to develop an export version of the aircraft. Russian officials have trained their Indian counterparts and supplied with them data and software to work on research and development.

The Indian version of the aircraft “will have some differences from the Russian prototype due to specific requirements of the Indian air force,” the fact sheet states.

Unlike the previous Paris Air Show, when Russian aircraft such as the Su-35 dominated the skies and dazzled the crowds, the government doesn’t have any military aircraft performing at this year’s event largely because it wanted to focus attention on new civilian aircraft such as plans for a new wide-body airliner to be developed in collaboration with China.

Slyusar also said the company expects to sign a contract this year to sell 24 Su-35s for the Chinese military and is in talks to ink a deal to perform more maintenance work on Russia aircraft.


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## Kamil_baku

ejaz007 said:


> "IAF questions the indigenous development aspect in this skewed ratio. The AL-41 engine, which is supposed to power the FGFA, is not yet developed. AL-31, which powers the Su-30 MK, is not capable of supersonic cruise. Avionics, including active electronically scanned array radar, do not have any visibility."


this tells a lot about the project!


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## sudhir007



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## sathya

*Russia further reduces order for Pak-Fa*







Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov Speaking to Russian media clarified that Purchase order for fifth generation fighter T-50 has been furthered reduced.

Russian air force will purchase only one squadron for first trial at the same time will increase the purchase of Su-35 fighters, which are cheaper.

the deputy minister stressed that the timing of the start of serial production of PAK FA is not changing and it will begin in 2016 as reported earlier.

Source : idrw


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## surya kiran

sathya said:


> *Russia further reduces order for Pak-Fa*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov Speaking to Russian media clarified that Purchase order for fifth generation fighter T-50 has been furthered reduced.
> 
> Russian air force will purchase only one squadron for first trial at the same time will increase the purchase of Su-35 fighters, which are cheaper.
> 
> the deputy minister stressed that the timing of the start of serial production of PAK FA is not changing and it will begin in 2016 as reported earlier.
> 
> Source : idrw



This is what I have been saying past 2 weeks. Their capacity is 60 aircraft by 2020. They are procuring only 22 or so. We can easily procure the remaining. Drop the Rafale.

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## sathya

surya kiran said:


> This is what I have been saying past 2 weeks. Their capacity is 60 aircraft by 2020. They are procuring only 22 or so. We can easily procure the remaining. Drop the Rafale.



july 7 is it ? 

we ll know about any possibility..
i dont think we ll go back on PM words in France. 36 may be the final number. 
rest may go to pak fa.


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## migflug

*FGFA Fighter deal likely during Modi’s November visit to Russia*
Published July 11, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: THE HINDU






The final agreement for the joint development and production of a fifth generation fighter aircraft could be signed during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Russia in November, diplomatic sources told _The Hindu_ on Thursday.Preparations are under way in both countries for the summit-level meeting to impart a qualitative boost to defence cooperation.

Agreeing that differences exist, sources said without getting into the details that “a workaround has been found and discussions are in an advanced stage” and an agreement could be reached “by autumn”. The final deal is likely to be signed in November.

The agreement on the fighter aircraft has been stuck because of differences in the work share between Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). As the project is to have equal investment from each side, India has been insisting on parity in the work share. So far, both sides have invested $295 million for the preliminary design. India had some reservations on the engine and stealth characteristics.

India has requested Russia to let its pilots fly the T-50 prototypes currently under testing. A decision by Russia on this is expected shortly. India plans to induct 144 fighters and the entire project is expected to cost over $30 billion. The first batch of aircraft is expected to be handed over to the Russian Air Force in early 2017


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## sathya

Now we will know how pak fa compares against pricey rafale..

In both cases we can't expect TOT


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## Perpendicular

migflug said:


> India has requested Russia to let its pilots fly the T-50 prototypes currently under testing. A decision by Russia on this is expected shortly. India plans to induct 144 fighters and the entire project is expected to cost over $30 billion. The first batch of aircraft is expected to be handed over to the Russian Air Force in early 2017


I wonder what if IAF pilots are there already.


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## IND151

FGFA Fighter deal likely during Modi’s November visit to Russia | idrw.org


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## Perpendicular

If Izdeliye 30 proves successful, the PAK-FA would be able to super cruise at Mach 1.5+ speeds.


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## Perpendicular

The final stage of state testing of PAK FA fighter was started - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

State testing of T-50 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighter is entering its final stage; the jet demonstrates great performance and outmatches its foreign analogues, Vzglyad.ru reports with reference to Commander-in-Chief of the Russian air forces, Viktor Bondarev.

«The testing is in progress, it demonstrates great performance, the weapon system works great in terms of attacking both ground and air targets. The deliveries will be started next year; we are completing tests,» RIA Novosti cited Bondarev.

The Commander-in-Chief explained that the fighter would feature some stealth technologies, which is more important compared to speed (PAK FA’s maximum speed is over Mach 2). Missile is of great importance in terms of combat capabilities. «It is fitted with the latest equipment and weapons. Moreover, we are trying to implement all the latest solutions in this project,» the General added and noted that it’s possible in case no changes in the aircraft’s design are necessary.

«Of course, its capabilities outmatch everything that exists and will be developed in the near-term in the area of aircraft,» the Commander-in-Chief noted. «It will be as good as F-22 and F-35 jets. Moreover, it will outmatch these vehicles by many parameters,» he explained. Bondarev also said that the mass production of T-50 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighters would be started in 2017. The number of purchased aircraft will depend on capabilities of the aircraft industry. «We are completing the jet’s testing and its mass production will be started in 2017. We are going to purchase as many vehicles as the enterprises can manufacture, because it's impossible to reach an output of 24 vehicles per year immediately. They produce four ones – we purchase four jets, they produce 10 ones – we purchase 10 fighters,” the Commander-in-Chief said.

Earlier Deputy Minister of Defense Yuri Borisov said that due to “new economic situation” the Ministry of Defense may reduce the number of purchased PAK FA fifth-generation fighters. Initially it was planned to purchase 10 PAK FA fighters and hand them over to military units for training and after that purchase another batch of 60 T-50 jets. T-50 (PAK FA) is the fifth-generation fighter fitted with a brand-new avionics suite and advanced radar with active phased antenna array.

It performed its maiden flight in January 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. It was demonstrated for the first time at MAKS-2011 airshow held in Zhukovsky (Moscow Region). Three PAK FA prototypes took part in MAKS-2013 airshow: they have demonstrated formation flying. Compared to previous generation fighters PAK FA has a number of unique capabilities combining the functions of a strike-fighter and a fighter.

Components made of composites, cutting-edge technologies, the jet’s aerodynamic configuration and stealth technologies grant a very low thermal and optical signature. Stealth capabilities dramatically increase the fighter’s combat effectiveness. The jet is capable of destroying air and ground targets under any weather and lighting conditions, the company noted.

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## migflug

beauty

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
31-July, 2015 14:51 IST
*Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft *

India signed the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) with Russia for co-development and co-production of Fifth Generation Fighter aircraft in October 2007. As per the IGA, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the designated implementation organisation from the Indian side. In turn, HAL is supported by Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and other Indian agencies.

HAL and Rosoboronexport of Russia have signed the General Contract in December, 2008 and the Preliminary Design Contract in December, 2010. The Preliminary Stage of the project has been completed in June, 2013. * The next stage of development would commence upon signing of the Research & Development (R&D) contract. *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Charanjeet Singh Rori and Smt Vanaroja R in Lok Sabha today.


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## IND151

India signs IGA with Russia to jointly develop 5th generation fighter Aircraft | idrw.org



Perpendicular said:


> If Izdeliye 30 proves successful, the PAK-FA would be able to super cruise at Mach 1.5+ speeds.



Izdeliye 30 will take many years before it gets mature, so earlier Pak Fas will be powered by 117S or 117.

But we should go for FGFA.

I think India will order some Pak Fas initailly after signing agreemnet just like it ordered Su 30 Ks in limited numbers ( which had lower than expected performance) which led to order for Su 30 MKs and then Su 30 MKIs. 

These early birds will come with Non 5 Gen Engines like 117S or 117. 

But induction of Pak Fa will be a Game Changer for sure.

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## Perpendicular

IND151 said:


> India signs IGA with Russia to jointly develop 5th generation fighter Aircraft | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> Izdeliye 30 will take many years before it gets mature, so earlier Pak Fas will be powered by 117S or 117.
> 
> But we should go for FGFA.
> 
> I think India will order some Pak Fas initailly after signing agreemnet just like it ordered Su 30 Ks in limited numbers ( which had lower than expected performance) which led to order for Su 30 MKs and then Su 30 MKIs.
> 
> These early birds will come with Non 5 Gen Engines like 117S or 117.
> 
> But induction of Pak Fa will be a Game Changer for sure.



Flight trials of Izdeliye 30 is said to begin in 2017 and possible first lot of T50's with this powerplant by 2020. Obviously will trickle down to ours resulting in great up-gradation.
Am not sure if IAF would go for 117S on its earlier birds but 117 which to be replaced later by Izdeliye 30.
Test phase was suppose to be carried out with 117S (AL-41F1S) all along.

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
04-August, 2015 17:15 IST
*Primary Design Programme for Construction of Fifth Generation Fighter Jets *

The preliminary design stage of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme has been completed in June 2013 based on a contract signed in December 2010 with the Russian side. As per the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) signed in October 2007, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the designated implementation organization from the Indian side. In turn, HAL is supported by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and other Indian Agencies.The expenditure incurred so far on Preliminary Design stage of FGFA programme is Rs.1483.15 crore. 

The *next stage of development of FGFA would commence upon signing of the Research & Development (R&D) contract.* As per the *draft R&D contract*, the *delivery of FGFA to Indian Air Force (IAF) has been envisaged to commence after 94 months from the start of the R&D contract. The contract has not been signed so far. *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri KC Tyagi in Rajya Sabha today.


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## IND151

Perpendicular said:


> Flight trials of Izdeliye 30 is said to begin in 2017 and possible first lot of T50's with this powerplant by 2020. Obviously will trickle down to ours resulting in great up-gradation.
> Am not sure if IAF would go for 117S on its earlier birds but 117 which to be replaced later by Izdeliye 30.
> Test phase was suppose to be carried out with 117S (AL-41F1S) all along.



Thanks for Info.


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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
07-August, 2015 13:59 IST
*Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft *

India signed the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) with Russia for co-development and co-production of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in October 2007. The preliminary design stage of the FGFA programme has been completed in June 2013 based on a contract signed in December 2010 with the Russian side. *The next stage of development of FGFA would commence upon signing of the Research & Development (R&D) contract. *

The FGFA is planned to have State-of-the-Art technology including features such as advanced avionics, advanced software intensity etc. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri P Kumar in Lok Sabha today.


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## Agent_47

A new anti-radar missiles for fighter jet T-50 







Corporation "Tactical Missiles" (Tactical Missiles Corporation) was developed and entered the testing anti-radiation missile X-58USHK intended for service with the Russian fifth generation fighter - the PAK FA (T-50). This information is shared with the Russian media, the general director of the corporation, Boris Obnosov, speaking at the International Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg (IMDS-2015). The corporation already started testing their new development, anti-radar missiles X-58USHK, everything goes according to the approved program, no failures, tests are within the planned deadlines, he told the press Boris Obnosov. According to the CEO of the corporation, a positive test result missiles will largely depend on the media. Therefore, the main missile test will be held in conjunction with the aircraft directly to the PAK FA, so most of the test program will be carried out directly in the flight in conjunction with the actual running surface and air radar. According to Boris Obnosov now developers are working on the corporation a new generation of rockets for the armament of the T-50. What kind of rocket, and what they will have the characteristics and functions, while developers do not disclose. We know one thing, the PAK FA will have on board arms appropriate to his abilities as a fighter of the fifth generation stealth. © Создана новая противорадиолокационная ракета для истребителя Т-50 :: ПВ.РФ Международный промышленный портал

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## 南加驯兽师

The comparison made in this post between the RCS of J-20 and pak-fa does NOT make any sense at all. These results were computed using physical optics (PO), which is a high frequency approximation of Maxwell equations. When the size of the target or the component of the target is comparable to the wavelength, this method is not applicable. In other words, one can not use this method to compute the RCS of a jet fighter at the frequency of 0.15GHz (wavelength = 2m).

Another reason that invalidates the comparison is that, in the simulation of pak-fa, it was assumed there was a 377Ohm/sq loss and in the simulation of J-20, there was no loss. This means that there is RAM on the surface of pak-fa and J-20 is simply running naked. It's hard to believe any airplane with stealth feature would not use RAM on it's surface.



ptldM3 said:


> Your "fear" is not a valid source. Even if the pak-fa has a larger RCS then both of those aircraft you mentioned, it would not be the end of the world or mean that it is worse. The pak-fa is designed the be an all around aircraft, meant to have reduce RCS, long range, super cruise, high maneuverability and many other innovations.
> 
> Aircraft like the J-20 may have similar range to the pak-fa but it will also be far heavier and less maneuverable due to the aircraft's large mass, particularly the fuselage's large mass.
> 
> 
> A specular test that Kopp did at 150 MHz, elev 45, Azm 315 shows that the pak-fa does considerably betterthen the J-20, at other frequencies or angles the J-20 better, and yet at other angles and frequencies the pak-fa does slightly better. Colors are represented by db levels.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 208374
> View attachment 208375
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spending more money does not solve the problem, the F-35 is massively over budget, for many reasons including constant defects and well known company mismanagement, not to mention the F-35 program is actually 3 different programs. As for the J-20 no one knows what the budget on it is is, nor does it matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can think whatever you like but there is no basis for what you think, people have always doubted Russia, there are Russian stereotypes that go back to the cold war that Russians are dull, unimaginative and lack innovation but in reality Russia has been an innovator and pioneer in many fields. You sound a lot like the typical doubters, for years we have heard that the Armata program will be cancelled, we have heard that an unmanned turret is too complex, Russia does not have the know how, it requires too much automation, and so on. And then photos like this surfaced:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 208376
> 
> 
> 
> My gwad how did the russkies do that? It's not possible, it must be a fake, even if it's real it's A-10 lunch.


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## Perpendicular

Agent_47 said:


> A new anti-radar missiles for fighter jet T-50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Corporation "Tactical Missiles" (Tactical Missiles Corporation) was developed and entered the testing anti-radiation missile X-58USHK intended for service with the Russian fifth generation fighter - the PAK FA (T-50). This information is shared with the Russian media, the general director of the corporation, Boris Obnosov, speaking at the International Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg (IMDS-2015). The corporation already started testing their new development, anti-radar missiles X-58USHK, everything goes according to the approved program, no failures, tests are within the planned deadlines, he told the press Boris Obnosov. According to the CEO of the corporation, a positive test result missiles will largely depend on the media. Therefore, the main missile test will be held in conjunction with the aircraft directly to the PAK FA, so most of the test program will be carried out directly in the flight in conjunction with the actual running surface and air radar. According to Boris Obnosov now developers are working on the corporation a new generation of rockets for the armament of the T-50. What kind of rocket, and what they will have the characteristics and functions, while developers do not disclose. We know one thing, the PAK FA will have on board arms appropriate to his abilities as a fighter of the fifth generation stealth. © Создана новая противорадиолокационная ракета для истребителя Т-50 :: ПВ.РФ Международный промышленный портал


Was first displayed at Airshow china last year (correct if am wrong). Chinese might be interested in it aswell for their programs.


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## Perpendicular



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## Agent_47

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 244902







HD wallpaper version

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## Perpendicular

Probable new helmet to go with PAKFA ?

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## sathya

IAF cut orders for 5th Gen FGFA by Half, down to only 65 aircrafts | idrw.org

Looking to cut costs and prune military imports, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has halved its demand for Russian-built fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).It now wants just three squadrons of the fighter jets which are to be inducted into the Russian Air Force in 2016.

Sources say the IAF has scaled down its needs and now indicated that just three squadrons (around 18 planes in each), besides a few more for training of the pilots, will be enough for now. This works out to be 65 planes, almost half from the earlier projection of 127 FGFAs to be jointly designed and produced by India and Russia.The T-50 has been built for the Russians under the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme for the fifth generation fighter aircraft.

A plane will cost $100 million (Rs 650 crore). Three squadrons are the projection of an off-the-shelf deal India is pressing its military ally for immediate delivery of the planes.New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet can be supplied to the IAF, while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The Tribune had first reported about India’s offer on February 24 this year.

Simultaneously, the IAF is also working on a $11 billion R&D contract for long-term development of the jet. It is pending ratification since 2013. In a written reply to the Rajya Sabha on August 4, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the preliminary design stage of the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme completed in June 2013.

“The expenditure incurred so far is Rs 1,483.15 crore,” Parrikar said. The next stage of development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft will commence after signing of the R&D contract.The problem is in case India opts for the R&D contract route, the deliveries are envisaged to commence 94 months – eight years. The next best option is to go for an immediate off-the-shelf purchase and in case the research-and-development contract works out, more jets can be produced here.

With a dwindling fleet of fighter jets, this wait is not an option for the IAF, said sources. By the end of this year, the IAF would be at its lowest combat strength in more than a decade. It will be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year and in the middle of a predicted shortage.

In a nutshell, the IAF with 576 fighter jets will be well short of the 750-strong fighter jet fleet mandated by a government sanction to wage a simultaneous two-front war with Pakistan and China.The pruning down of numbers has been done as the IAF is backing its own options of getting French-origin Rafale jets and the remaining batch of 72 Sukhoi-30 MKI jets from Russia, sources say.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to France in April this year announced the intent to get 36 Rafale jets. A cost negotiation committee is in talks with the French company and the numbers could go beyond the announced 36 as the IAF has projected a demand for 80 Rafale-type planes.

-------------------------------

I guess 65 PAK FA at the rate of 36 Rafales 

It s damn bargain ...


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## PARIKRAMA

PAK FA To Get Heat Resistant Automated Rapid Fire Cannon





NPO Pribor's Automatic Rapid Fire Canon For Aircraf



*PAK FA To Get Heat Resistant Automated Rapid Fire Cannon*
Russian fifth generation fighter, PAK FA (T-50) will be fitted with automatic rapid-fire cannon with new heat resistant ammunition.

“The automatic rapid-fire aircraft cannon is used on all the jets and the new one (PAK FA) will also be fitted with it. Ammunition for these cannons offers maximum level of commonality, but deliveries of one of the latest types, which will be used by PAK FA, will be started soon; this refers to ammunition with a heat-resistant plastic rotating band,” NPO Pribor CEO Oleg Chizhevsky was quoted as saying by Tass Tuesday.

“Use of such ammunition will increase the efficiency and endurance of the cannon,” Chizhevsky said.

The fighter jet is expected to be put to service in 2016. The deliveries of the fighter are expected to start by 2017.

According to Commander-in-Chief of the Aerospace Defense Forces Viktor Bondarev, the indigenous fighter will be as good as F-22 and F-35 jets. Moreover, it will outmatch these vehicles by many parameters”.

PAK FA fighter performed its maiden flight in 2010. It was reported earlier that Russian air forces will take delivery of 55 fighters by 2020, however, in spring Deputy Minister of Defense Yuri Borisov said that the contract for delivery of the fifth-generation fighter would be adjusted taking into account the current economic situation

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## Echo_419

sathya said:


> IAF cut orders for 5th Gen FGFA by Half, down to only 65 aircrafts | idrw.org
> 
> Looking to cut costs and prune military imports, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has halved its demand for Russian-built fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).It now wants just three squadrons of the fighter jets which are to be inducted into the Russian Air Force in 2016.
> 
> Sources say the IAF has scaled down its needs and now indicated that just three squadrons (around 18 planes in each), besides a few more for training of the pilots, will be enough for now. This works out to be 65 planes, almost half from the earlier projection of 127 FGFAs to be jointly designed and produced by India and Russia.The T-50 has been built for the Russians under the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme for the fifth generation fighter aircraft.
> 
> A plane will cost $100 million (Rs 650 crore). Three squadrons are the projection of an off-the-shelf deal India is pressing its military ally for immediate delivery of the planes.New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet can be supplied to the IAF, while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The Tribune had first reported about India’s offer on February 24 this year.
> 
> Simultaneously, the IAF is also working on a $11 billion R&D contract for long-term development of the jet. It is pending ratification since 2013. In a written reply to the Rajya Sabha on August 4, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the preliminary design stage of the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme completed in June 2013.
> 
> “The expenditure incurred so far is Rs 1,483.15 crore,” Parrikar said. The next stage of development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft will commence after signing of the R&D contract.The problem is in case India opts for the R&D contract route, the deliveries are envisaged to commence 94 months – eight years. The next best option is to go for an immediate off-the-shelf purchase and in case the research-and-development contract works out, more jets can be produced here.
> 
> With a dwindling fleet of fighter jets, this wait is not an option for the IAF, said sources. By the end of this year, the IAF would be at its lowest combat strength in more than a decade. It will be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year and in the middle of a predicted shortage.
> 
> In a nutshell, the IAF with 576 fighter jets will be well short of the 750-strong fighter jet fleet mandated by a government sanction to wage a simultaneous two-front war with Pakistan and China.The pruning down of numbers has been done as the IAF is backing its own options of getting French-origin Rafale jets and the remaining batch of 72 Sukhoi-30 MKI jets from Russia, sources say.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to France in April this year announced the intent to get 36 Rafale jets. A cost negotiation committee is in talks with the French company and the numbers could go beyond the announced 36 as the IAF has projected a demand for 80 Rafale-type planes.
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> I guess 65 PAK FA at the rate of 36 Rafales
> 
> It s damn bargain ...



Pure speculation


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## Perpendicular

MIG corp: We've started to develop 5-gen light fighters based on MIG-35 & 1.44 Draft to show RuAF within months 




Any ideas for IAF.

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## SR-91

Perpendicular said:


> MIG corp: We've started to develop 5-gen light fighters based on MIG-35 & 1.44 Draft to show RuAF within months
> View attachment 249197
> 
> Any ideas for IAF.




Is this an official drawing?


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## Perpendicular

@SR-91 Can't say, but you can see a latest chinese fighter programe similar to it.


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## Perpendicular

Head of Rosoboronexport : We have completed the first stage of FGFA (Developed sketched and technical project of the fighter).


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## HariPrasad

Hindustani78 said:


> Ministry of Defence
> 31-July, 2015 14:51 IST
> *Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft *
> 
> India signed the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) with Russia for co-development and co-production of Fifth Generation Fighter aircraft in October 2007. As per the IGA, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the designated implementation organisation from the Indian side. In turn, HAL is supported by Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and other Indian agencies.
> 
> HAL and Rosoboronexport of Russia have signed the General Contract in December, 2008 and the Preliminary Design Contract in December, 2010. The Preliminary Stage of the project has been completed in June, 2013. * The next stage of development would commence upon signing of the Research & Development (R&D) contract. *
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Charanjeet Singh Rori and Smt Vanaroja R in Lok Sabha today.



There was already a news that designing work of front part of FAGFA is already complete. A russin scientist/ diplomat had confirmed that.


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## kurup

SR-91 said:


> Is this an official drawing?



That is MiG-1.44 .... One among the Soviet 5G TD along with Berkut .


MiG-1.44








Su-47 Berkut


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## #hydra#

Su 47 aka s37 was a futuristic concept,a forward swept wing aircraft with a powerful engineshigh agility ,low rcs design etc... Wonder why they have dropped the project.


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## Perpendicular

3 New T50 will begin testing this year.

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## Perpendicular

On board radar stations of T50


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## Abingdonboy

Perpendicular said:


> MIG corp: We've started to develop 5-gen light fighters based on MIG-35 & 1.44 Draft to show RuAF within months
> View attachment 249197
> 
> Any ideas for IAF.


The Russians can't even develop a single 5th gen platform (PAK-FA), forget this pipe dream.

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## Perpendicular

Abingdonboy said:


> The Russians can't even develop a single 5th gen platform (PAK-FA), forget this pipe dream.


Do you think then India can on its own ? MIG is purposing a lightweight 5th gen fighter replacing mig 29, could be our answer to 5th gen naval platform.
What other options we got.
I believe in Russian efforts and their idea of not solely relying on stealth.
View attachment 251954

we can increase the composite material percentage, change avionics package, sub systems.
Looking at what sukhoi 30 has done for us, possibilities with FGFA are great.

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## Abingdonboy

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 251953
> 
> Do you think then India can on its own ? MIG is purposing a lightweight 5th gen fighter replacing mig 29, could be our answer to 5th gen naval platform.
> What other options we got.
> I believe in Russian efforts and their idea of not solely relying on stealth.
> View attachment 251954
> 
> we can increase the composite material percentage, change avionics package, sub systems.
> Looking at what sukhoi 30 has done for us, possibilities with FGFA are great.


I don't see why this platform has any relevance to India nor why India should be interested in it, for its own (in-house) 5th gen platform with possible naval variants the AMCA is a FAR more attractive option that should be explored. 

As time goes by I am less and less enamoured by the Russians, they are taking India for a jolly good ride (at India's expense) and delivering little.


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## Perpendicular



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## PARIKRAMA

Xposting. Credit to original poster from another forum

************************************************************
And a PAK FA programme timeline from the KNAAZ insiders (for 10.08.2015):
Т-50-1 - 219 fh, 197 landings.
Т-50-2 - 221 fh, 221 landings. 24.07.2015 sideway weapons bay has being destructed under VPU-50 (ВПУ-50) short range AAM launcher test. Aircraft has been repaired, a new sideway weapons bay (БГрО) design has been developed and will be applied to T-50-6-2 Stage II prototype.
Т-50-3 - 300 fh, 151 landings. Fuselage fuel tank has leaked near the left intake. Aircraft has being repaired and having further tests preparations in LII (Zhukovskiy).
Т-50-4 - 169 fh, 106 landings.
T-50-5 R (repaired) - a T-50-5 after fire repair project has been completed, giving the tech guys fucking valuable experience in composite parts repair process. Will be delivered to LII in this October or November.

And the best part:
A Stage II prototype T-50-6-2 has been assembled and now undergoes systems debugging, structure tests, and *ATTENTION!!! the first time in T-50 history a RAM coatings application!!! *
The 1-st flight is planned - on 01.12.2015, then the bird will be transported to LII and will undergo complete RF/RCS trials. After that it will be sent to the rest ones for pre-production flight tests on 15.01.2016 (planned).

T-50-8 - the second Stage II prototype undergoes assembly process and will be delivered in the middle of 2016.
***************************************************************

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## bdslph

you need to be patient it is not easy to make a stealth plane but in a ashort period time Russia went a long way

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## Perpendicular

Perspective Multirole Fighter

As at 31 December 2014 the parties agreed on technical concept, completed detailed design work. Consultations on the schedule and cost of research and development are under way. 
I saw your @Irfan Baloch 3d work in one of lca thread man, if u got time can consider this one. Thanks


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## Perpendicular



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## Echo_419

Abingdonboy said:


> The Russians can't even develop a single 5th gen platform (PAK-FA), forget this pipe dream.



I agree we should rather put our money in our R&D Orgs & focus on developing technologies


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## Hephaestus

kurup said:


> That is MiG-1.44 .... One among the Soviet 5G TD along with Berkut .
> 
> 
> MiG-1.44
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su-47 Berkut



Did someone say Berkut


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## Perpendicular

Let IAF test-fly 5th-Gen fighters, Russia told - The Times of India


NEW DELHI: Ahead of PM Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow in December, India has asked Russia to allow IAF test pilots to fly its fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to evaluate its capabilities. 

"Flight-testing will help decide the way forward on the collaboration between the two countries on the FGFA. All options, ranging from an off-the-shelf purchase of 60-65 jets to joint production, are on the table," said a top defence ministry official on Friday. 

The fact that India needs an FGFA, which combines stealth, super-cruise capability, super-maneuverability, data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter, in the years ahead cannot be disputed. 

For a country that is yet to even make its first indigenous fighter (the fourth-generation Tejas) fully-operational, the choice is limited. While the F/A-22 'Raptor' of the US is the world's only fully-operational FGFA as of now, the Russian Sukhoi T-50 and the American F-35 'Lightning-II' Joint Strike Fighter are the ones undergoing final developmental tests. 

But having repeatedly rejected the FGFA overtures made by the US, India was slated to seal the project to co-develop and co-produce the Sukhoi T-50 with Russia at least three years ago. 

It was after all way back in 2007 that the Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement for the FGFA was inked. It was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. 

India, along the way, also slashed its requirement from the original 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters to just 127 single-seat jets. The overall FGFA project cost for making all the 127 fighters in India was pegged at around $25 billion. 

But technical, cost and delivery timeframe wrangles have kept the final design contract — under which both sides were to chip in an initial $5.5 billion each for prototype development and infrastructure - far away from being inked till now. "The off-the-shelf purchase is being considered since the final R&D contract may take more time," said the source.


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## Hindustani78

A cash-starved Russia, which is now cranking up its arms sales to Pakistan much to India's discomfiture, hopes Modi's visit will break the logjam on the FGFA. India, in turn, wants Russia to "compress" the delivery timeframe to around 36 months from the original 94 months, as was first reported by TOI.


All this comes in the backdrop of the Modi government scrapping the deadlocked $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project with France for 126 Rafale fighters (108 of which were to be made in India) earlier this year. Instead, the Modi-Hollande summit in April decided that India would buy 36 Rafales in a direct acquisition deal with France.


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## knight11

Why such desperation Sir, Is there any immediate threat to India ? FGFA will take its time for the development. Russia is cash starved but is also facing much more pressure and heat after whats is happening in Ukeraine Crisis so she have more reason than us for quick development of PAK FA. If you are talking of the western threat from our neighbour than the upgradation program of Mirrage 2000H to 2009 std, Darlin 3, and Mig 29UPG is more than enough for the time being. 

36 Rafale is comming in the fly away condition from the france and this will give the time for the Dassault for making deals for its indian local companies for the components. Hal will be the prime contractor to assemble the rest from the kits. Its 189 not 126 jets that is involved and scrapping the deal means that Indian govt is making the deal with G-G deal i.e government to government deal thus excluding all third parties and india could bargain with the price which should be lower than the bidding. All the speculated deals involving the deadlock or setback by the Dassault is by product of our desi gernalist with great defence knowledge and with the hunger for the news for their bellies and the news channels.


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## BATTLE FIELD

had anybody played *Drone Ops:first strike* game for mobile.
its very easy to kill the PAK FA with the MQ-9 in dog fight.


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## Perpendicular



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## Prajapati

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 257882



Damn.....got to admit, that thing is an work of art  ........ just like the Rafale. Its a Beauty. 

IAF just might become the best looking AF of all times

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## knight11

*Old articles i found on the net don't take it seriously
*
*Comparison: Raptor killer? (PAK-FA Vs F-22)*


It has been suggested that for the PAK-FA to be successful it does not need to exceed the F-22, merely come close enough to shift popular perception of the F-22’s unrivaled dominance of the 5th Generation stage. There will always be die-hard proponents of both planes and any definitive analysis is certainly premature. The following observations should be taken within the context of amateur analysis based on scant reliable information. I think it makes little sense to dive into details, any meaningful comparison must remain high-level.

*Stealth:* There can be no serious doubt that the PAK-FA is a stealth aircraft; stealth shaping is a compromise and the T-50 clearly shows design decisions which make no sense if stealth was not the aim. Frontal aspect stealth is likely very good. The rear of the engine nacelles has more questionable stealth however and suggests a focus on frontal aspect stealth with rear aspect-stealth clearly being a feature but less-so than F-22. Alternatively the engine nacelles may be remodeled when the production standard engine is introduced (the prototype likely flew with interim Saturn 117S engines to reduce risk). PAK-FA clearly uses shaping to deflect radar waves, and presumably will be painted in a RAM paint. It may also employ ‘Plasma stealth’, particularly within radomes. Although the cockpit canopy is sloped as per the F-22s (ie not ‘bubble’), it is not clear if it is radar reflecting like the F-22’s, and does not have the brown tinge of gold-lined cockpits. Radomes and cockpit canopies are said to be amongst the most difficult parts of an aircraft to make stealthy and it may be that this technology is proving more difficult to develop.






Both aircraft are credited with super-cruise, the ability to fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburner, and thus increasing range and reducing heat signatures compared to other fighters at equivalent speeds.

*Air-Air Weapons:* Russia has unveiled the RVV-SD missile, an updated version of the AA-12 Adder missile with folding fins, as the main missile of the aircraft. Although the PAK-FA’s weapons bays can likely carry larger missiles, they are probably not large enough for the massive KS-172 (RVV-L) weapon which has an expected range of about 400km. Reports indicate that this missile, or one with similar performamce, can be carried externally. The ramjet powered version of the AA-12 Adder promoted in the 1990s seems to have been dropped. The RVV-SD is likely a good match for the latest AMRAAM variants, though both may be eclipsed by the ramjet powered long range Meteor missile which will be fielded on ‘Eurocanards’ like the Gripen and Typhoon by the time PAK-FA enters service.





The above comparison with the F-22 shows the larger main weapons bays of the PAK-FA (red). *The F-22 can carry 6 AMRAAM missiles in the main bay. Reports indicate that the PAK-FA can carry 8 equivalent AA-12 (RVV-SD) missiles, giving it a 2 missile advantage. The side bays (orange) are of similar capacity with both aircraft carrying just one short-range missile per bay.* For the PAK-FA the two smaller weapons bays are probably for the RVV-MD version of the AA-11 Archer short range missile. The RVV-MD is probably capable of rear-firing, a unique feature whereby the missile flips immediately after launch and flies at a target behind the plane. AA-12s with this feature have been tested and are possibly operational within the Flanker community.

The F-22 is currently equipped with relatively outdated AIM-9 variants, and lacking a helmet mounted sight for off-boresight targeting. This is likely to be rectified before the PAK-FA enters full scale service and so F-22 and PAK-FA will likely be closely match in this technology.

*Both aircraft are equipped with a single cannon; 20mm Vulcan for the F-22 and probably a Gsh-30-1 (as per the Flanker) for the PAK-FA. Many reports suggest that PAK-FA will have two cannons but this seems unlikely and the T-50 prototype appears to only have one gun port, situated on the starboard forward fuselage.*


*Air-Ground role:* The F-22 started life as a straightforward air superiority fighter (later rebranded “Air Dominance”) but has been evolved to carry a potent strike capability. Part of the drive towards the multirole capability was the conspicuous absence of a credible “5th Generation” air threat from the Russian side. The F-22 was conceived in the 1980s against the background of the cold war, facing off to a generation of Soviet fighters which never came. For a while the F-22 looked somewhat spare and a strike capability was added, made possible by US advances in GPS weaponry. The F-22’s internal weapons bays were not large enough for substantial loads so special smaller-diameter bombs have been developed. *The F-22’s air-ground weapons load is modest to say the least, but its ability to deliver them to the target seems unrivalled and more than makes up for this deficiency. 

The PAK-FA too is reportedly a multi-role design. The internal weapons bays appear larger than on F-22, but are of unconfirmed depth and may not be capable of carrying many of the weapons speculated. Various Kh-31 (AS-17 Krypton) family supersonic missiles seem plausible albeit on the large side, as do satellite guided bombs and KAB-500 series bombs. The weapons bays are about 5m long. *

A folding fin version of the Kh-58 ‘Kilter’ anti-radiation missile has been shown and this seems a reasonable fit, though may be more relevant to the MiG SKAT UCAV program rather than the PAK-FA.

*Avionics:* The PAK-FA has several features of particular interest here. In the nose there is likely to be active electronically scanned array radar (AESA) as per F-22. This may actually have additional mechanical steering, although that would add weight. *What’s virtually unique to the PAK-FA however is rear-facing radar in the tail. This too may be AESA and could simply be an additional array for the nose-mounted radar, or possibly a completely separate set. The PAK-FA therefore has true 360 degree coverage. Additionally the PAK-FA is thought to have L-Band radars mounted in the wing leading edges. These would have both passive and active emitting roles and may be the key to ‘seeing’ stealth aircraft such as the F-22.* Alternatively these may be located in the wing LERX sides – the exact location is subject to some speculation. The F-22’s stealth is generally optimized against X-band radars as that is what fighters generally use – L-Band is a much longer wavelength and can more easily detect stealth aircraft but is also less accurate -hence X-band radars are still used for routine intercept and virtually all fighters use X-Band.

There is serious doubt of Russia’s ability to mass produce key computer components such as micro processors. This may prove a deployment bottleneck, or Western off-the-shelf processors may be used. Russia has proven capability to produce Phased array radars, datalinks etc and may attempt to sidestep technological deficiencies.

*Unlike the F-22 the PAK-FA will feature an IRST optical/IR search and tracking system. The decision not to fit an IRST to the F-22 may be reconsidered to rectify this gap. IRST promises to be the best way to target stealth aircraft since regardless of the IR stealth claims made of the F-22, jet engines are fundamentally not conducive to IR invisibility. The trail of hot air behind the F-22 is likely the first thing the PAK-FA may see, perhaps as far as 25km.*

*



*

Sukhoi’s recent demonstration cockpit mock-ups, which may relate to both Su-35 or PAK-FA, suggest two very large multi-function-displays (MFDs) and a very wide Head-up-display (HUD). The T-50-1’s cockpit clearly has the massive HUD. If this mock-up cockpit is essentially similar to PAK-FA’s, then compared to the F-22 the PAK-FA’s will take advantage of advancing technologies of past decade and be relatively more advanced than F-22s. The F-22 has 4 large and two small MFDs and a large HUD, but PAK-FA’s two displays are much larger still and the HUD even bigger:

*








Dogfighting: *The F-22 is exceptionally maneuverable, but comparatively less dogfight optimized compared to the PAK-FA which has 3D thrust vectoring and moving LERX. This seems in line with Russian doctrine still influenced by the Syrian experiences over the Baka Valley in 1981 where Soviet supplied fighters were decimated by the Israeli air force in close combat. It seems probable that the PAK-FA is more maneuverable, but the F-22 may have speed-bleed/regain advantages.
*



*
The F-22 has larger wing leading-edge flaps and larger tail planes. The PAK-FA’s tail fins are smaller but all-moving and the 3D TVC allows the engines to be used both laterally and horizontally unlike the F-22 which relies on massive tail fins for lateral stability and yaw control.
*
Source - Planeman's Military Analysis 
*

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## Perpendicular

PAK FA (T-50) began the FINAL STAGE of testing at the Akhtubinsk range in Southern Russia.

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## Perpendicular

DONGUZ RANGE/Orenburg region/, September 18. /TASS/. Russia’s T-50 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighter will be tested in military drills as soon as it enters service next year, Russian Air and Space Forces Commander-in-Chief Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev has said.

"The first T-50s should enter service in 2016," Bondarev said, adding that the plane will be "immediately tested in all its capabilities in all the exercises like Su-30 and Su-35 jets."

The pilots are now testing the aircraft’s capabilities at the Akhtubinsk range in southern Russia.

"The aircraft is excellent, it has huge capabilities, and moreover the aircraft computer will do the maximum itself, while the pilot will only control its actions. We lay great hopes on this plane and I think, it will justify them," Bondarev said.

Earlier, Bondarev said that the PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) fighter jet would enter service in 2016 and its serial supplies would start from 2017.

The PAK FA fighter jet showed high flight characteristics at the recent MAKS-2015 air show in Zhukovsky near Moscow. The aircraft performed several most difficult aerobatic maneuvers for the first time, including a flat spin and a tailslide.


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## samlove

*Computer generated images of Indian Air Force twin seater T-50 PAK FA*

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## Ind4Ever



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## ashdoc

russia taking india for a ride ??

IAF frets over Russian fighter aircraft deal - The Economic Times

from the above link it appears that the aircraft may never fly in indian colours


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## PakEye

according to The Economic Times , IAF demanding 5th generation, stealth fighter to match China J-20 and FC-31 and not inferior to US F-22 or F-35, new engines and new weapons plus R&D. I think R&D will take its full time.


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## Hindustani78

IAF frets over Russian fighter aircraft deal - The Economic Times

NEW DELHI: The worries of the air force on getting a capable fifth generation fighter aircraft to counter the development of two futuristic fighters by China are mounting with little clarity on the Russian program that New Delhi had signed onto in 2010.

As Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar heads to Russia later this month for bilateral military-technical consultations, top officers of the air force fear that the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) program may never take off if things continue at the present pace, foreclosing it as an option for a viable future fighter aircraft. 

Senior IAF officials have told ET that several questions have been raised by India on the FGFA program, with little feedback or sharing of details by the Russian side. For starters, the IAF has not been given a tentative per unit production cost of the next generation fighter that is being developed by Sukhoi. 

"It is impossible to sign on to anything with Russia till we have some clarity on the per unit cost of an aircraft. If the price turns out to be exorbitant, we may not even be able to afford it," a senior officer told ET. The air force's worry is not without merit, given that production costs for Russian aircraft in India have gone up tremendously in the past 10 years. 

At present, a Sukhoi 30 MKI that would cost Rs 227 crores to manufacture in Russia, rolls out of HAL's Nashik plant for over Rs 440 crores. This considerable mark-up is due to the extra man hours that are required by HAL to manufacture an aircraft, the official explained. 

Even if price could be sorted out, officials say that several basic questions on technical capabilities of the under development fighter exist with no reasonable explanation from Russia in sight. Besides the fact that Russia has not been able to develop a new engine for the aircraft that would give it super cruise capability - to fly faster than the speed of sound without going to afterburners - the IAF is worried about the weapons package for the fighter. 

"Till now, all we see is that the weapons being offered by Russia for the FGFA are the same ones that are available for our Su 30 MKI fleet. A fifth generation aircraft is not just the platform but the entire package - from sensors to weapons, which we are yet to see," the officer said.

The IAF feels that as per the present design, the weapons on offer are too large to be fitted into the internal weapons bay of the FGFA. At present configuration this would end up with the weapons being loaded externally, taking away the most basic feature of a fifth generation fighter - stealth. "The weapons bay is too small and external weapons would show up the fighter on radar," the official told ET.


India has already invest $ 295 million in the Russian FGFA program with a design contract signed in 2010. However, a subsequent plan for a full fledged research and design program has not materialized, even as the intended Indian work share on the platform has depleted.


While the US has two fifth generation fighters operational - the F 22 and F 35, China is fast tracking its own next generation fighter programs -the J 20 air superiority fighter and the FC 31 medium fighter. India has also announced its plans for a future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) with the air force looking at a 15 year induction plan if the project progresses on time.


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## Perpendicular




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## PARIKRAMA

From Т-50 - Страница 6
Long-term plan for the T-50 to 2020 .:
2016 - T-50-9 and T-50-10 and T-50-11.
2017 - T-50-12 (re-static), the T-50C-1.2 .
2018 - T-50C-3.4
2019 - T-50C-5,6,7,8, PMI 1.2.
2020 - T-50C-9,10,11,12, PMI 3.4.
In articles T-50C and the PMI design documentation for the plant not yet been received.

Note PMI=FGFA
all Credit to Azokh Wel original poster in airforce.ru and TingMing in another forum for pointing this out
It implie*s 4 FGFA protos by 2020*


more quotes

Improvements cover the *gun, and the *fuselage. Panels of RMB under the threat of separation, so they will increase 2-meter plates.
T-2.6.50 - to perfect systems on FOX
T-50-8 - docked SUNGLASSES, as planned transfer to LIS 15.10.
T-50-9 - began docking of the fuselage.

T-50-2 - completed maintenance work, stabilizers (GO) replaced by new, replaced the left engine.
T-50-3 - installed a new set of 101KS-B, SIC patched receiver under the regime of refueling in the air.
The total plaque exceeded 1000 hours.
T -50-8 - term transfer to LIS shifted to 01.11.

The design is being constantly improved, every day makes a difference.
50-8 should get a full set of avionics (radar L-band, a complete set of A-402, etc.),
50-9 from 50-8 differs mainly in the direction of improving manufacturability.
T-50-7 on the fuselage corresponds to 6-2 on SUNGLASSES be even more advanced (redesigned side members in order to increase strength).



A photo of T-50-5R after repair flight




Image posted by Gadeshi in another forum

Can some one explain whats that under its right wing?

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> A photo of T-50-5R after repair flight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image posted by Gadeshi in another forum
> 
> Can some one explain whats that under its right wing?




Im thinking out loud, Is it newly designed side weapons bay door?

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## topgun047

PARIKRAMA said:


> A photo of T-50-5R after repair flight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image posted by Gadeshi in another forum
> 
> Can some one explain whats that under its right wing?



Open side bay for WVR missile.

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## knight11

@PARIKRAMA @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @GURU DUTT @Whazzup @ramu @samlove @migflug @MilSpec

Do you really think India could go for FGFA/ PAK FA, Raffale, LCA, and AMCA.
Either way India could affort 2 planes only in QTY. and either AMCA or FGFA could be there and 1 have to be dumped.

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## Echo_419

knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @GURU DUTT @Whazzup @ramu @samlove @migflug @MilSpec
> 
> Do you really think India could go for FGFA/ PAK FA, Raffale, LCA, and AMCA.
> Either way India could affort 2 planes only in QTY. and either AMCA or FGFA could be there and 1 have to be dumped.



Nope both AMCA & FGFA are important


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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @GURU DUTT @Whazzup @ramu @samlove @migflug @MilSpec
> 
> Do you really think India could go for FGFA/ PAK FA, Raffale, LCA, and AMCA.
> Either way India could affort 2 planes only in QTY. and either AMCA or FGFA could be there and 1 have to be dumped.




In all honesty AMCA may be the fall guy among the mentioned names. Possible bcz
1. Def ecosystem does not at present has a high precision private industry players in matured form in our Military industrial complex to possibly build anything 5th generation

2. The AMCA seems more of mix and match of everything - F22, F35, Pakfa, J20 and J31 and even Korean Kai50. Dont take me wrong but IAF ASQRs would like heaven made angel serving "amrit" which is not possible as of now

3. The possibility of 5th gen tech itself at the moment is unknown as Russian engine is still not online.. The other tech understanding and assimilation or procurement to incorporate into AMCA is a bigger challenge. ALso the capapbility fo local industry to absorb high precision tech is a bigger question mark.

4. Possibly the biggest blunder would be investing every year a corpus for next 15 years on AMCA which can be more used to stream line LCA, rafales, MKIs and Pakfa/FGFA

5.The timeline projected with no pvt player but rather ADE/HAL to deliver over 15 years is not only ambitious but rather a wish like we see in gospels about tooth fairy granting wish when u put ur broken milk teeth beneath your pillows.. The accountability issue with focus on LCA and FGFA means nothing left for HAL to focus on.. ADE can give the designs finalisation withs pecs but where will HAL build and when will HAL build when its whole manpower will be busy understanding FGFA and producing it

6.IF india CANCELS FGFA and opts for PAKFA only off the shelf then its even more diifcult for AMCA as self development will take much longer time

7. Practically AMCA needs far more maturity in our own abilities domestically as well as our in hand experience with 5th gen tech so its better we postpone AMCA project to 2030+ timezone 

Personal views so i may be biased with my thinking.. But i am open to suggestions to change my thinking on this...

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## knight11

PARIKRAMA said:


> In all honesty AMCA may be the fall guy among the mentioned names. Possible bcz
> 1. Def ecosystem does not at present has a high precision private industry players in matured form in our Military industrial complex to possibly build anything 5th generation
> 
> 2. The AMCA seems more of mix and match of everything - F22, F35, Pakfa, J20 and J31 and even Korean Kai50. Dont take me wrong but IAF ASQRs would like heaven made angel serving "amrit" which is not possible as of now
> 
> 3. The possibility of 5th gen tech itself at the moment is unknown as Russian engine is still not online.. The other tech understanding and assimilation or procurement to incorporate into AMCA is a bigger challenge. ALso the capapbility fo local industry to absorb high precision tech is a bigger question mark.
> 
> 4. Possibly the biggest blunder would be investing every year a corpus for next 15 years on AMCA which can be more used to stream line LCA, rafales, MKIs and Pakfa/FGFA
> 
> 5.The timeline projected with no pvt player but rather ADE/HAL to deliver over 15 years is not only ambitious but rather a wish like we see in gospels about tooth fairy granting wish when u put ur broken milk teeth beneath your pillows.. The accountability issue with focus on LCA and FGFA means nothing left for HAL to focus on.. ADE can give the designs finalisation withs pecs but where will HAL build and when will HAL build when its whole manpower will be busy understanding FGFA and producing it
> 
> 6.IF india CANCELS FGFA and opts for PAKFA only off the shelf then its even more diifcult for AMCA as self development will take much longer time
> 
> 7. Practically AMCA needs far more maturity in our own abilities domestically as well as our in hand experience with 5th gen tech so its better we postpone AMCA project to 2030+ timezone
> 
> Personal views so i may be biased with my thinking.. But i am open to suggestions to change my thinking on this...



I agree with you in most of your view but in some space in my heart says, yeh not logical that

1. India might reduce its FGFA to 36 nos
2. Modi give ADA its 2 billion what they are asking for AMCA R&D and development.
3. India partners with GE for F-414 EPE and US allowing help of GE for Kaveri-2.
4. India partners with Israel, Japan for its AMCA, Where Israel providing EW , Japan Optronic sensors, India Composites. and AMCA-N, AMCA AF, and AMCA- trainers are developed.

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## PARIKRAMA

knight11 said:


> I agree with you in most of your view but in some space in my heart says, yeh not logical that
> 
> 1. India might reduce its FGFA to 36 nos
> 2. Modi give ADA its 2 billion what they are asking for AMCA R&D and development.
> 3. India partners with GE for F-414 EPE and US allowing help of GE for Kaveri-2.
> 4. India partners with Israel, Japan for its AMCA, Where Israel providing EW , Japan Optronic sensors, India Composites. and AMCA-N, AMCA AF, and AMCA- trainers are developed.



Good thinkings.. Lets assume what you wish turns out true (wish fairy granted). 

Point1. After signing investment contract for 295Mn we buy just 36. off the shelf surely no TOT.. No kit based assembly.. No knowledge locally.. all data and spare dependency fully with Russia.. CAG after govt derrier for why 295 invested if only 36 was to be procured. We could have bought later from the market also type logic. 
Unit cost swelling up as Economies of scale not achieved for Pakfa/FGFA
Last but most important, Russia will become a grumpy partner for future as they are not even partners in AMCA as per your wish in later points

Point 2:
2 Bn dollars or Rs 13k Crores looks good to start off.. But R&D result will definitely take time.. 10-15-20 years surely as noone will give us access and in house development takes time.

Point 3:
GE 414 EPE will not be 5th gen sureshot. Conversion will require investment. kaveri 2 is a strong possibility anyways. Whether it meets AMCA requirements of Dry thrust, Wet thrust, supercruise, TVC perhaps or evn Exhaust stealth or reduction techniques seen in 5th gen jets is a big challenge.
Knwoing business folks they would rather offer India its own downgraded 5th gen engine and drag Kaveri 2 program for decades with no fruitful results

4. This is a very strong possibility. We can sureshot do this and we will do that. A home developed platform should be customised for all forces need and trainers is a must. So yes, this is absolutely possible in every scenario.

Personally, if engine of PAKFA is good enough in I-30 form (5th gen engine being developed), we should use the same in AMCA to get commonality and use the higher thrust to streamline and design the weight carrying abilities in complete concealed bays. We can perhaps downsize its specs also a bit (tweak) and make it even more robust and perhaps longer opertaions hours (lifetime)
Involving Americans in AMCA project would be disastrous as they would lvoe to sell F35 to us over we developing our own AMCA.


But all in all good scenarios.. It tells us how much its difficult to assemble a 5th gen Jet too.. And we really want to build one from scratch..

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## SR-91

knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @GURU DUTT @Whazzup @ramu @samlove @migflug @MilSpec
> 
> Do you really think India could go for FGFA/ PAK FA, Raffale, LCA, and AMCA.
> Either way India could affort 2 planes only in QTY. and either AMCA or FGFA could be there and 1 have to be dumped.




All of these birds have different roles to play.
*******LCA*, *Short Range* Fighter, already *confirmed...120 *for IAF.............Min 40 for NAVY. Also will create a huge BASE, JOBS, INFRASTRUCTURE, SKILLED MAN POWER, FOUNDATION etc,etc for *AMCA*. 
Will replace MIG-21.
*ROLE*............Point Defense, Interception, Ground attack near LOC.

*******AMCA *is the *Medium Range* Fighter and future of IAF. Don't expect it till end of NEXT Decade. Hence, Rafale will take over this most important role for now. Expecting over 200 in numbers
Will Replace ....Jaguars, Mirages.
*Role*(when ready)...Air superiority, ground attack, bombing and interception.

******* *Rafale* *Medium Range* Multi Role Fighter, *best in the business*, *36 confirmed *and most likely another 44 to come. Total min is 80. But the final numbers will be up there. Most important and much needed fighter due to shortages.
Will Replace.......Mainly all MIGs.
*ROLE.**................ *Strategic strikes inside enemy territory, provide aerial cover to ground troops, Recon and much more.

*PAK-FA/FGFA..*....Future *Long Range, *Air superiority fighter for IAF. Don't expect it till middle of next decade. Minimum 3/4 squadrons but I'm expecting it to go SU-30's way. 200 plus fighter, if economy stays on course.
Will Replace.........SU-30's
*ROLE.*...................Deep Strike Fighter, Air to Air, Air to Surface deep strategic missions.


AS u can see AMCA and FGFA are in designing stages and will take time to come alive. LCA and Rafale can be inducted at a rapid pace to fulfill shortages of IAF.

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## knight11

SR-91 said:


> All of these birds have different roles to play.
> *******LCA*, *Short Range* Fighter, already *confirmed...120 *for IAF.............Min 40 for NAVY. Also will create a huge BASE, JOBS, INFRASTRUCTURE, SKILLED MAN POWER, FOUNDATION etc,etc for *AMCA*.
> Will replace MIG-21.
> *ROLE*............Point Defense, Interception, Ground attack near LOC.
> 
> *******AMCA *is the *Medium Range* Fighter and future of IAF. Don't expect it till end of NEXT Decade. Hence, Rafale will take over this most important role for now. Expecting over 200 in numbers
> Will Replace ....Jaguars, Mirages.
> *Role*(when ready)...Air superiority, ground attack, bombing and interception.
> 
> ******* *Rafale* *Medium Range* Multi Role Fighter, *best in the business*, *36 confirmed *and most likely another 44 to come. Total min is 80. But the final numbers will be up there. Most important and much needed fighter due to shortages.
> Will Replace.......Mainly all MIGs.
> *ROLE.**................ *Strategic strikes inside enemy territory, provide aerial cover to ground troops, Recon and much more.
> 
> *PAK-FA/FGFA..*....Future *Long Range, *Air superiority fighter for IAF. Don't expect it till middle of next decade. Minimum 3/4 squadrons but I'm expecting it to go SU-30's way. 200 plus fighter, if economy stays on course.
> Will Replace.........SU-30's
> *ROLE.*...................Deep Strike Fighter, Air to Air, Air to Surface deep strategic missions.
> 
> 
> AS u can see AMCA and FGFA are in designing stages and will take time to come alive. LCA and Rafale can be inducted at a rapid pace to fulfill shortages of IAF.



Lets check the present inventory

*IAF*
1. Mig 21, 27 -- Replacement needed immedeately starting from 2018 -- (Interceptor, ground attack)200 +
2. Jaguar UPG -- Give service till 2027-30 -- (Bomber, ground attack) -- 150 +
3. Mirrage 2000 UPG -- 2030 -- (Multirole, Strategic Nuclear delivery) -- 50 +
4. MIG-29 SMT/UPG -- 2027-30 -- (Multirole, Airsuperiority) -- 60 +
5. MKI(Super Sukhoi) -- 2035-40 --- (Air Superiority) -- 200 +
*Future*
6. Rafale --- 2045 -- (Multirole) -- 36 + **

*INF*
1. Sea Harrier -- 2025 (carrier/naval) -- 40 +
2. Mig 29K -- 2035-40 (carrier)
3. Jaguar Marine Strike -- 2025-2030 -- 15 +



Now What are our options in future (Hypothetical)
1. Lca 
2. Rafale/ Rafale M
3. AMCA/ AMCA Naval
4. FGFA/PAK fa
5. F-35 B

*MISC*
1. Rustom -2
2. Aura
3. Harpy

The future Air warfare would be high intensity, cordinated with all forces, short, netcentric, EW/Stealth, Smart weapon/strandoff weapons, UAV taking active part in survellance, offensive. So the role based fighter plane would be replaced with Multirole, VLO, netcentric,

What could be the plan of induction/ replacement

* 2017-25*

1. MIG-21/27 retire and replaced with Tejas Mk1A -- 125
2. 36 Rafale Induction
3. Focus on Development of Tejas MK-2
4. Provide fund for AMCA 2 Billion to ADA, and R&D on Kaveri-2, F-414 EPE
5. Super Sukhoi Upgradation, and make MKI number upto 300+

*2025-2030*

1. Induct 36 Rafale Retire Mirrage 2000
2. Retire Mig 29UPG, start replacing with Tejas MK-2 -- 100 +
3. Retire Harrier with Tejas MK-2 Naval -- 30 +
4. Start Tejas MK3 Medium category with EPE engine
5. Retire Jaguar UPG
6. Rustom - 2/3

*2035-40*

1. Start replacing Super Sukhoi with FGFA/PakFa -- 72 FGFA, 36 PakFa
2. Induct AMCA from 2035 -- 200 +
3. Induct Tejas MK-3 -- 200 +
4. Induct AMCA Naval for carrier
5. Induct Aura


So in year *2040*, we have

1. FGFA/Pakfa -- 108
2. AMCA -- 200 +
3. Rafale -- 72 +
4. Tejas MK1a -- 125
5. Tejas MK-2 -- 100 +
6. Tejas MK-3 -- 200 +


*2050 +*

1. FGFA
2. AMCA
3. Tejas MK-4
4. Aura MK *



.

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## knight11

I


lavenge lavenge said:


> @knight11 @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Why do you people think that India could only afford two out of four ;FGFA,AMCA,LCA,Rafael.
> 
> I mean had AMCA had been rolling out of assembly lines within next 3-4 years, we would have to worry about economic burden of operating these four aircrafts in conjugation with Mig-29's, Mirage-2000I, Jaguars, Mig-21/27, and Su30MKI.
> 
> But AMCA is not coming in this decade, and probably in next decade too. Let's be honest here; even if everything proceed in most optimistic manner, we would have AMCA in late 2020's. At that time, there would be no Mig-21/27 which would have been replaced by LCA and Rafael; and Mig-29 (Airforce version which is much older than Navy's), Jaguar, early upgraded mirage-2000I, and early inducted Su30MKI would be nearing retirement.In 2028-30 time period, we would be facing same problem as we are facing vis-a-vis replacement of Mig-21/27 today.
> 
> AMCA would logically play same role in 2028-30 that LCA is playing today ie that of replacing retiring Aircrafts, not addition of a new variety.


I am not expert but what I feel is problem would be that the proposed 189 Rafale acquisition will kill AMCA, because when the Engine development would be completed for the PAKFA, the Russian R&D speed will increase manifold and would demand India to invest money on the R&D of Pakfa/fgfa in which India is the partner, so there would be no money left for AMCA, the critical timing when India needs to pump lot of money on this project, keeping the LCA induction in mind.


Also India needs joint collaboration with some country, and Israel fits in it, not only for the investment needed for its R&D, but also the technological know how, specially in EW. Japan is another country who have its own 5th Gen fighter program, but the decision has to made by the Japanese Govt. whether they would go for the indigenous development or not. Both Israel and Japan needs 5th Gen fighter, and partners F-35, Israel to keep its technological superiority in the region, and Japan to counter China. Japan have already spend lot of money on the Awaac, Aegis, Bmew Radars, and its F-2 program and would likely to not go with 5th Gen of its own. But India needs her expertise in Composite knowledge with low RCS which she developed for F-2, which USA (lockheed Martin)also uses.

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## PARIKRAMA

@lavenge lavenge 
Bro, With all due respect, i had stated that AMCA i see logically beyond 2030. Even R&D budget i say $2Bn is good to start off. My reasoning was posted earlier... The rest we discussed was based on hypothetical situations and out of box solutions..
About affordability, my reasoning is suppose we earmark say Rs 6500-13000 Cr every year for AMCA.. We know the actual results will need time. Lets say and assume a good long period of 15 years. Mind you this cost may be less considering 5th Gen tech is much more costly so international norm is around 25-30Bn R&D of course broken into parts. Since i don see the military industrial complex matured to handle such high tech as of now, i would rather advocate a mix of acquisition payment for LCAs, Super Sukhoi program, PAKFA/FGFA and Rafale tranches payment per year usage for such an amount which say gives us a mix of these birds year on year uptill 2030. No doubt MRCA retirement will come one day but Rafale is for 40 years. Implying we can easily start post 2030 when bulk purchases are more or less done by then.
Secondly, the private partnership and ecosystem development via LCA program production would have matured to a good degree with onset of PAKFA/FGFA production/coproduction which also gives us albeit if not full but limited access to 5th gen tech and may help us getting some parts procured directly like the engines instead of we continuing to find ways and means to develop our own 5th gen engine.
I see better usage of that money to do fleet acquisition in the next 15 years then AMCA investment..
.


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## knight11

lavenge lavenge said:


> But the thing is that a lot of expenditure under R&D header is permanent. Once our Engineers develop Uttam AESA, would you fire those Engineers or would you give them job of designing fifth generation AESA radar? Mind you expenditiure on facilities and salaries is permanent (unless you close them down).You would have to pay Engineers and Scientist and maintain your testing infrastructure and facilities, irrespective of whether you develop anything or not. Thus a large part of R&D expenditure has already been accrued.



R&D and development is the continuous process and in India there is already present the great talent. But we have many deficiencies too namely the political will that is needed to achieve something. We lack Industrial base, but it is not that big problem to support defense needs, but the institution that could shows us the need, that create, leads, show the path that builds our industry and nurture hrd and educational base.

IAF wants the LCA with every features from day one, but why IAF don't have the demand for the tandem seat trainer version and love HAWK, why she trains the pilot on Su 30MKI and not on tejas trainer whose glass cockpit could be modified to Mimic the functionality of MKI, thus increases MKI's tecnical life, low cost.
Why no development of multiple rack for BVR and light Light bomb.
Why there is no need for 100, 250 lb bomb for tejas, and rely on Spice 250.
Why there is no need for indeginous IRST development.
Why delay in Super Sukhoi program when this single step will inc. the capability manifolds
Why India could develop Arjun Tank but confused on IFV.
Why India could develop 4th gen LCA but struggling with Rustam.
Why IA asking Nag to hit the target on broad day light (When Pakistan Army would be crazy to mount attack)on Rajasthan when temp is 60 degree, so all IR senson won't distinguish between hot engine of tank and sand.
Why IA wanted MCW, which could not be meet with any gun in the whole world.
Why IAF/IA looking at the face of DRDO to show what is their demands.
Why IAF leadership expect more from DRDO, which has Pilot skills, but no engineering and scientific knowledge to know the difficulty. And why DRDO looking at the face of GOI to create the educational base and skill, and money.




lavenge lavenge said:


> Also as I said, AMCA has a longer horizon than Rafael, LCA or even FGFA (if we buy less than 100). By the time AMCA would roll out, assembly lines of these aircrafts would have closed.Only lines of AMCA, F-35C (if assembled in India) and FGFA would be open.



If you look at my above plan/stucture of acquiring fighter plane I have only chosen 70 Rafale and 100 FGFA, the minimum requirement with 300 + Super Sukhoi to deter PLAAF threat, giving the time and funds for Tejas and AMCA .



lavenge lavenge said:


> AMCA would logically play same role in 2028-30 that LCA is playing today ie that of replacing retiring Aircrafts, not addition of a new variety.



AMCA is very important, if we start working now with the help of Israel/Japan collaboration, it could be 28-30, otherwise 2035+
Aura is very very important program and should not be delayed at any cost.



PARIKRAMA said:


> @lavenge lavenge
> Bro, With all due respect, i had stated that AMCA i see logically beyond 2030. Even R&D budget i say $2Bn is good to start off. My reasoning was posted earlier... The rest we discussed was based on hypothetical situations and out of box solutions..
> About affordability, my reasoning is suppose we earmark say Rs 6500-13000 Cr every year for AMCA.. We know the actual results will need time. Lets say and assume a good long period of 15 years. Mind you this cost may be less considering 5th Gen tech is much more costly so international norm is around 25-30Bn R&D of course broken into parts. Since i don see the military industrial complex matured to handle such high tech as of now, i would rather advocate a mix of acquisition payment for LCAs, Super Sukhoi program, PAKFA/FGFA and Rafale tranches payment per year usage for such an amount which say gives us a mix of these birds year on year uptill 2030. No doubt MRCA retirement will come one day but Rafale is for 40 years. Implying we can easily start post 2030 when bulk purchases are more or less done by then.
> Secondly, the private partnership and ecosystem development via LCA program production would have matured to a good degree with onset of PAKFA/FGFA production/coproduction which also gives us albeit if not full but limited access to 5th gen tech and may help us getting some parts procured directly like the engines instead of we continuing to find ways and means to develop our own 5th gen engine.
> I see better usage of that money to do fleet acquisition in the next 15 years then AMCA investment..
> .


Sir, I differ with your view. With PAKFA/FGFA India won't get any thing other than a product.
We have been license produce Mig-21, jaguar, MKI, hawk for decades but didn't got any significance knowledge. It was the LCA, which give us something-- We started working on MMR, and whatever we gain with this one project is what we have in Darlin and Mig 27 upgrade. There is no scarcety of lalent in country, Create an Institution other than DRDO, GOI, Security force, with members coming from all the parties, Political, Armed, R&D which could create the REQUIREMENT is what is needed. ADA have done excellent job in LCA, AMCA design is superb, ADA is confident, Money they are asking is not much, so give them their SHOT.

Also have you seen Russia don't want us to peek in Pakfa, and the indian requirement is different than the Russian. Russian want maneuverability on the cost of stealth, and IAF wants stealth on the cost of maneuverability.

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## #hydra#

knight11 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @GURU DUTT @Whazzup @ramu @samlove @migflug @MilSpec
> 
> Do you really think India could go for FGFA/ PAK FA, Raffale, LCA, and AMCA.
> Either way India could affort 2 planes only in QTY. and either AMCA or FGFA could be there and 1 have to be dumped.


Both is required,one for heavy category like MKI other in medium category like mig29/mirage


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## knight11

#hydra# said:


> Both is required,one for heavy category like MKI other in medium category like mig29/mirage



Check this
Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 163

And this, Sorry I forgot to tag you, your comment would be highly appreciable my friend

SUPER sukhoi


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## Blue Marlin

knight11 said:


> Lets check the present inventory
> 
> *IAF*
> 1. Mig 21, 27 -- Replacement needed immedeately starting from 2018 -- (Interceptor, ground attack)200 +
> 2. Jaguar UPG -- Give service till 2027-30 -- (Bomber, ground attack) -- 150 +
> 3. Mirrage 2000 UPG -- 2030 -- (Multirole, Strategic Nuclear delivery) -- 50 +
> 4. MIG-29 SMT/UPG -- 2027-30 -- (Multirole, Airsuperiority) -- 60 +
> 5. MKI(Super Sukhoi) -- 2035-40 --- (Air Superiority) -- 200 +
> *Future*
> 6. Rafale --- 2045 -- (Multirole) -- 36 + **
> 
> *INF*
> 1. Sea Harrier -- 2025 (carrier/naval) -- 40 +
> 2. Mig 29K -- 2035-40 (carrier)
> 3. Jaguar Marine Strike -- 2025-2030 -- 15 +
> 
> 
> 
> Now What are our options in future (Hypothetical)
> 1. Lca
> 2. Rafale/ Rafale M
> 3. AMCA/ AMCA Naval
> 4. FGFA/PAK fa
> 5. F-35 B
> 
> *MISC*
> 1. Rustom -2
> 2. Aura
> 3. Harpy
> 
> The future Air warfare would be high intensity, cordinated with all forces, short, netcentric, EW/Stealth, Smart weapon/strandoff weapons, UAV taking active part in survellance, offensive. So the role based fighter plane would be replaced with Multirole, VLO, netcentric,
> 
> What could be the plan of induction/ replacement
> 
> * 2017-25*
> 
> 1. MIG-21/27 retire and replaced with Tejas Mk1A -- 125
> 2. 36 Rafale Induction
> 3. Focus on Development of Tejas MK-2
> 4. Provide fund for AMCA 2 Billion to ADA, and R&D on Kaveri-2, F-414 EPE
> 5. Super Sukhoi Upgradation, and make MKI number upto 300+
> 
> *2025-2030*
> 
> 1. Induct 36 Rafale Retire Mirrage 2000
> 2. Retire Mig 29UPG, start replacing with Tejas MK-2 -- 100 +
> 3. Retire Harrier with Tejas MK-2 Naval -- 30 +
> 4. Start Tejas MK3 Medium category with EPE engine
> 5. Retire Jaguar UPG
> 6. Rustom - 2/3
> 
> *2035-40*
> 
> 1. Start replacing Super Sukhoi with FGFA/PakFa -- 72 FGFA, 36 PakFa
> 2. Induct AMCA from 2035 -- 200 +
> 3. Induct Tejas MK-3 -- 200 +
> 4. Induct AMCA Naval for carrier
> 5. Induct Aura
> 
> 
> So in year *2040*, we have
> 
> 1. FGFA/Pakfa -- 108
> 2. AMCA -- 200 +
> 3. Rafale -- 72 +
> 4. Tejas MK1a -- 125
> 5. Tejas MK-2 -- 100 +
> 6. Tejas MK-3 -- 200 +
> 
> 
> *2050 +*
> 
> 1. FGFA
> 2. AMCA
> 3. Tejas MK-4
> 4. Aura MK *
> 
> 
> 
> .


excellent points you got there!

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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> MKI(Super Sukhoi) -- 2035-40 --- (Air Superiority) -- 200 +


300++



knight11 said:


> Sea Harrier -- 2025 (carrier/naval) -- 40 +



The Sea Harrier will be phased out from next year and there are no where near 40 in service- more like 8 these days.


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## knight11

Abingdonboy said:


> 300++
> 
> 
> 
> The Sea Harrier will be phased out from next year and there are no where near 40 in service- more like 8 these days.


Surely MKI number could be rose upto 300 (200 MKI + 100 Super Sukhoi) + 50 SAF (Strategic Air Force for nuclear delivery)

Sea Harrier -- They are deployed on ground bases after removal from carrier. Confirm nos I haven't checked that should be around 1-2 squardon in service. Its still a potent aircraft - EL/m elta radar + derby and limited upgrades are being performed on these Sea Harriers by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), to extend the life of the aircraft by 15 years.
IN could buy surplus Sea harrier from Royal navy, thats why 40 nos.

But important factor is importance of AMCA and Tejas in the timeline.


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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> Surely MKI number could be rose upto 300 (200 MKI + 100 Super Sukhoi) + 50 SAF (Strategic Air Force for nuclear delivery)



272 MKIs are confirmed and on order (all will be upgraded to the Super spec), there is a strong likelihood of at least another 40 coming on top of this. The SFC are not going to get MKIs, the MKI is NOT a strike fighter, the IAF will be getting Rafales for that job.




knight11 said:


> Sea Harrier -- They are deployed on ground bases after removal from carrier. Confirm nos I haven't checked that should be around 1-2 squardon in service. Its still a potent aircraft - EL/m elta radar + derby and limited upgrades are being performed on these Sea Harriers by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), to extend the life of the aircraft by 15 years.
> IN could buy surplus Sea harrier from Royal navy, thats why 40 nos.



Look at the latest reports, there are only 8 or so Sea Harriers left flying in the IN and they are going to be phased out in the next 1-2 years guaranteed. 

The RN and RAF sold all there serviceable Harriers to the USMC years ago and the RN hasn't used Sea Harriers for more than a decade- they were using the GR7 Harrier until the Ark Royal was decommissioned.

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## hawk11



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## Perpendicular

Apparently three more prototype vehicles will be added to the test cycle by early next year to speed up the process.

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## samlove

After its engine fire in June 2014, Sukhoi T-50-5 was rebuilt as the T-50-5R and returned to the air on October 16.


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## hawk11



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## stalintom

I love Indian military

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## topgun047

hawk11 said:


>



The one on far left is Tejeshewar Singh aka Teji.
He is from Chandigarh.
He is from the first batch to fly the Su MKI.


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## Abingdonboy

hawk11 said:


>


 That's neat, too bad the pilots who will fly the IAF's FGFAs likely haven't been born yet


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## Perpendicular

Abingdonboy said:


> That's neat, too bad the pilots who will fly the IAF's FGFAs likely haven't been born yet


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## Perpendicular

New smart skin, antenna systems along the fuselage.


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## Ankit Kumar

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 271356
> 
> New smart skin, antenna systems along the fuselage.



Sir, do shed some light on "Smart Skin".



Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 271356
> 
> New smart skin, antenna systems along the fuselage.



Sir, do shed some light on "Smart Skin".


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## Perpendicular

Ankit Kumar said:


> Sir, do shed some light on "Smart Skin".
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, do shed some light on "Smart Skin".


sir, small sensors across jets body. A new generation EW integrated as such that it acts as a smart skin. It was developed late last year hence been installed on the newest prototypes I believe. 
The new radar system has 1526 transmit-receive modules, which provides the aircraft with a greater detection range, multi-channel target tracking.
The use of composite materials and innovative technologies, aerodynamic configuration of aircraft provide an unprecedentedly low level of radar, optical and infrared visibility. This allows to significantly enhance its combat effectiveness for both air and ground targets at any time of day or night and in any weather conditions.

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## Ankit Kumar

Are the prototypes fitted with 6 radars ?


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## Perpendicular

Russia to push back the testing of stage 2 engine for PAKFA to 2018, a year late.

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## Perpendicular

T50 - 5

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## anant_s

Possible armament for PAK FA. Notice Brahmos NG missile.

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## Perpendicular

Tests of PAKFA are in final stages, has confirmed its flight performance.


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## SR-91

Perpendicular said:


> Tests of PAKFA are in final stages, has confirmed its flight performance.


Any info on 6th prototype ?


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## Perpendicular

SR-91 said:


> Any info on 6th prototype ?


Most probably early 2016

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## SR-91

Perpendicular said:


> Most probably early 2016



What changes are expected?


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## Perpendicular

SR-91 said:


> What changes are expected?


Well probably testing and integration of so many subsystems. Can't really say what might change in the final 3 which are being built. I can just speculate like
Testing a prototype with full VLO treatment, which might not have been done yet. 
Wing mounted L band radars.
Reshaping of IRST into more stealthy shape etc.

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## knight11

*INTRODUCTION*
RUSSlA’S military aircraft manufacturing industry has well and truly recovered from the slump following the collapse of the Soviet Union two decades ago. With the first public disclosures a year ago of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA stealth fighter the industry is yet again creating designs at the forefront of fighter technology. Sukhoi is today one of the world’s most active manufacturers of combat aircraft, with a genuinely global customer base catering to nations that do not qualify or will not purchase US and EU built products, or who prefer the less politically restrictive terms of Russian sales. While China’s reverse engineering of two Flanker variants has produced considerable public controversy in Russia, Sukhoi continues to market more recent Flankers to the PLA. With the stealthy PAK-FA now planned as a replacement for domestic and export Flankers, the proliferation problem observed with the Flanker is set to further expand over this decade.

*T-50 PAK- FA / Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)*




The stealthy T-50 PAK-FA or Perspektivniy Aviatsioniy Komplex Frontovoy Aviatsii [Future Tactical Air System] was devised from the outset to be a multi-role high performance replacement for the Flanker family of fighters, intended for both the Russian Air Force and foreign export clientèle appeared in the Russian media a couple of years ago, many US observers labelled the aircraft an F-22-ski. Much more detailed analysis showed otherwise, and indicated important advances in aerodynamic and control system design. By US definitions, a mature production PAK-FA would qualify as a Low Observable or Very Low Observable design. It is intended to be the same size as the US JSF but has a mission profile closer to the F-22 Raptor, with air superiority being the primary mission and ground attack and reconnaissance being secondary. 
A major problem observable in many if not most analyses of the PAK-FA (and more recently China’s J-20) has been ‘mirroring’, or making assumptions about foreign development methodology, design reasoning and design definition based upon Western, especially US practices. This is more than often pure folly, since Russian industry follows quite different strategies in prototyping and progressive development based upon very disciplined risk management and incremental expansion. Many of the claims made about the stealth capability of the T-50 in the US amount to simple misinterpretation, resulting from a failure to study past Russian practices.




*The "Heart" of an Aircraft is its engine and the T-50 features the advance Saturn 117S developed by NPO Saturn Research and Production Association*


The T-50 is a large fighter, comparable in size to the Flanker, F-15 and F-22. Russian sources have indicated an internal fuel capacity of the order of 25,000 lb, to provide exceptional subsonic range, and high supersonic persistence. The prototype T-50 aircraft are fitted with the early production -117S engine developed for the Su-35S. It uses core components from the Al-41 F super-cruise engine, itself developed for the cancelled MiG MFI delta - canard supercruiser along with an improved fan and other components from the standard AL-31F Flanker engine. The 117S engine will permit supersonic cruise but it is not the intended production engine for the T-50. The latter is currently in development, and is intended to match or better the Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 used in the F-22.
*Low Observable or Very Low Observable Design*




The most prominent feature of the T-50 is its shaping, which is without dispute intended to provide a genuine stealth capability in the forward hemisphere, and possibly also in the aft hemisphere.
The planform of the T-50 is edge aligned, in the manner of most US stealth aircraft. This is intended to place reflections from the leading and trailing edges of the wings and tail surfaces, and the inlet strake, into very specific and narrow common lobes.
*Northrup Grumman/McDonnell Douglas YF-23A Technology Demonstrator Stealth Fighter*


The forward fuselage of the T-50 is chined, in a manner very similar to the F-22, the intent being to reflect upward and downward any impinging radiation in the plane of the aircraft’s flight, and to modest angles above and below same. The inlet leading edges are also edge aligned, in a manner which fuses ideas used in the F-22A and YF-23A. The widely spaced inlet tunnels provide an outward S-bend to increase reflection losses in an absorber coated tunnel. Much more interesting is the careful faceting of the engine nacelles, which is designed to remove the specular reflections seen with the Flanker or F-14 nacelle geometries, this idea being borrowed from the YF-23A.
The wing/fuselage join is generally well sculpted, and intended to remove the corner reflector between the wing and fuselage. The lower fuselage tunnel will produce similar unwanted effects to the sculpted lower fuselage of the F-35.
The aft quadrant of the T-50 presents interesting questions. The current prototype configuration exhibits the very same vice as the F-35, which is the use of circular or axi-symmetric engine nozzles, the anti-thesis of good stealth design. Moreover the rounded aft engine nacelles ‘undo’ much of the good effect produced by the chined center afterbody and faceted forward nacelles.





This suggests that the prototypes are not using the final nozzle or aft nacelle design, and we should not be surprised to see F-22 style nozzles appear later in development, as the production engine is introduced.
An overall assessment is that the T-50 prototype stealth shaping has all of the vices of the stealth shaping in the F-35, as a result of which application of mature absorbent materials and other stealth measures in a production design would produce similar stealth performance to the F-35, which is inferior to the F-22A Raptor in key aspects.
What is clear is that the T-50 prototypes are intended to prove aerodynamics and systems, and we will not see full application of stealth materials and detail component design until we see later prototypes. This is a risk minimization strategy. The aerodynamic design of the T-50 is innovative, and intended clearly to achieve ‘extreme agility’ throughout the envelope. The fully moving tails, movable inlet strakes, 3D thrust vectoring, and leading and trailing edge surfaces extend considerably on the superlative aerodynamics of the Flanker. The T-50 is clearly intended to out fly the F-22 in close combat and supersonic combat.
Another important qualification is that the extreme agility of the PAK-FA design will significantly degrade the kill probability of all United States Air to Air Missiles, (AAM) especially though the AIM-120 AMRAAM, which will be challenged to sustain the necessary manoeuvres to defeat the PAK-FA. Like the F-22A Raptor, the PAK-FA will provide a significant capability for the kinematic defeat of inbound missile shots.
*WEAPONS*




*Clockwise from Left: (1) The primary BVR weapon to be carried by the PAK-FA is the KTRV RVV-SD - (2) The Close combat weapon is the KTRV RVV-MD air-to-air short range missile - (3) KTRV Kh-58UShKE Kilter Anti-Radiation Missile - (4) Kh-38/Kh-38M air-to-surface missile*


Most of the T-50’s weapons will be carried in a long weapon bay in the floor of the fuselage tunnel. Two ‘scab’ fairings were evidently added late in the design to carry Within Visual Range (WVR) missiles, likely the RW-MD in early aircraft. Intended early weapons include the RW-MD, an enhanced R-73/74 Archer, the RW-SD, an enhanced R-77M Adder, and the large 200 nautical mile R-172 missile, intended to kill AEW&C aircraft and tankers from standoff ranges. A new internally carried ASM is in development, as is a yet to be displayed small diameter bomb analogue. 
*SENSOR SUITE*




*The MiG-35 Zhuk AE AESA designed by Phazotron is the first Russian AESA design and is expected to spawn upgrade packages for PAK-FA*

The sensor suite is to include the large Tikhomirov-NIIP active phased array or AESA radar, a new Infrared Search/Track system, and an advanced radio-frequency surveillance system, a suite similar to that initially planned for the F-22A Raptor. While uncertainties will continue with respect to the stealth performance of the aft fuselage, it is abundantly clear that the T-50 PAK-FA will not match the stealth performance of the F-22A Raptor, but will be more agile and manoeuvrable, especially in close combat, and will have better range and persistence by virtue of greater fuel fraction.
*OUTRIGHT WINNER*





The T-50 PAK-AF will outperform the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in all cardinal parameters, and will in a mature design produce similar stealth performance. Evolved legacy fighters like the F-15SE, F/A-18E/F and Euro-canards are wholly outclassed by the T-50 and have little hope of surviving in combat with this design.
Current planning indicates a build of 200 aircraft for Russia, a similar number for India, and 600 or more aircraft for other export clientele. The T-50 PAK—FA is a significant technological advance by Russia, and breaks the three decade long monopoly on stealth design held by the United States. In strategic terms, it completely nullifies established United States planning for its fighter fleet recapitalization, as only the F-22A Raptor is viable in airspace defended by the T-50 PAK—FA.

*CONCLUSION*

India's neighborhood is littered with several type of fighters, Pakistan has the F-16, the untested and rather crude JF-17 and China has the Flankers and Sukhoi Su-35M which it recently agreed to procure from Russia. However, the most alarming development to consider for India is the advancement of the J-20 Stealth Fighter concept by China, this fighter when certified for airborne operation will give a decisive edge to the PLAF. Hence, India needs speed up the already floundering project to fill in the yawning gap that the J-20 has left behind to be competitive in the Asian region. General Giulio Douhet quoted rightly way back in 1921 “_*To conquer the command of the air means victory; to be beaten in the air means defeat and acceptance of whatever terms the enemy may be pleased to impose... *_”_(Adapted from the works of Dr Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon and other Internet Sources)_


Source: IDN TAKE: Reasons Why India should not Abandon the FGFA Project with Russia

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## PARIKRAMA

_"Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said in an interview with Rossiya 24 TV Channel that flight development testing of the PAK FA fighter is nearly completed. “Several planes are now primarily testing airborne avionics. The tests proving the aircraft’s flight characteristics have practically been completed,” Borisov was quoted as saying."_

Source: Alert 5 » Flight tests of PAK FA nearly over - Military Aviation News






T-50-0 and T50-07 at Sukhoi Bureau as on 26.11.2015

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## Perpendicular

T 50 has just completed its flight testing phase : Russian MOD


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## knight11



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## knight11

[URL='https://flic.kr/p/y1fpUC']







[/URL]

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## Perpendicular

HAL : FGFA discussions has gained speed. 
Apparently


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## Stephen Cohen

Perpendicular said:


> HAL : FGFA discussions has gained speed.
> Apparently



Yes Mate there is some sound byte by HAL chief saying Six more months required 

Indo-Russian fighter aircraft project regains speed: HAL

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## Perpendicular

Stephen Cohen said:


> Yes Mate there is some sound byte by HAL chief saying Six more months required
> 
> Indo-Russian fighter aircraft project regains speed: HAL


Hopefully one of those prototypes are landing in India in six months. 
The flight tests are believed to be finished so some sort of follow on tests of avionics, weapons performance tests can be done in India by IAF and HAL also, with scope of MKIsation of the jet.


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## proud_indian




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## Perpendicular

proud_indian said:


>


Too much sensationalism involved in these tweets. 
Either HAL is telling the exact situation or either this nut.


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## mikhail ivanovich

@mods, i can not see what i'm posting and neither can i see what other members here posting...I can see if someone quotes some one elses post...Plz help me guys to activate my account ASAP...The same problem was there when i made my account and at that time i thought may be it takes few days to activate account but after 3 months the same problem persists..Plz help me @mods.....I can't follow the instructions as i can not read what you guys are sking me to do...Plz help me ASAP..


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## proud_indian




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## Super Commando Dhruva

HAPPY EID in PAKISTAN



Super Commando Dhruva said:


> HAPPY EID in PAKISTAN


They must be saying " HUM bach Gaye, HUM Bach Gaye India ke hone wale kaher se.


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## Jai Bharat

So let me get this straight.

IAF has had NO access to the plane whatsoever.

and

RuAF has cut down orders tremendously.


By what basis should India even sign any sort of contract with the Russians?

Let IAF get their Rafales and Tejas Mk1. Hasten development of AMCA and Tejas Mk2 with F414 engines, and continue Kaveri development for AURA until it is ready for integration into Tejas and AMCA for full indigenization. 

With this move, Rafale in larger orders is practically guaranteed:
Analysis: India faces crunch decision over Rafale, PAK-FA | IHS Jane's 360

Expect a huge deal for Rafale when French President Hollande comes in to India as a guest of honor.


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## PARIKRAMA

053 with new calibration markings on nose, and 6 pylons.

Courtesy to mack8 original poster

And some more information on Pakfa Stage 2 update
Original in Russian ТАСС: Армия и ОПК - Бондарев: российский истребитель пятого поколения Т-50 поступит в ВКС РФ в 2017 году

Google Translate version
Google Translate

Excerpts

*Bondarev: the Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 will go on videoconferencing RF in 2017 The army and the military-industrial complex. Total military have until 2020 to receive 55 fifth generation fighter *

MOSCOW, December 27. / TASS /. Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 PAK FA (Sukhoi PAK FA) will go into service in 2017. This was the TV channel "Russia 24" said the Chief of the Air and Space Forces of Russia, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev. 

"We have this aircraft in 2017 is already planning to get," - he said. The goal, which put before the latest technology - "to facilitate the works of the pilot to decide in the same flight number and the tasks on the ground and in the air." 

Earlier it was reported on the completion of the test T-50 PAK FA. Its serial deliveries are expected to begin in 2017. T*he first flight of the T-50 with the engine of the second stage (article 30) will take place in 2018. Total military have until 2020 to receive 55 fifth generation fighter aircraft. 

*

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## The Eagle

just wan to know what is the main difference between FGFA and PAK FA. Pardon me in advance if the question is no worth. Thanks


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## Sri

The Eagle said:


> just wan to know what is the main difference between FGFA and PAK FA. Pardon me in advance if the question is no worth. Thanks



Some are mentioned here.... basically FGFA is more advanced and refined version of PAKFA.
India to customise Russia's FGFA planes - The Hindu

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## Parul

*Russia’s fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (T-50) may be equipped with an advanced radar which is currently being developed by a Russian corporation.*







Russian T-50 PAK-FA Jet Flight Tests Near Completion
The radar will be based on Radio-Optical Phased Arrays (ROFAR), explained the adviser of the first deputy general director of concern Radio-Electronic Technology (KRET) Vladimir Mikheev.


KRET is a part of Russia’s Rostec corporation, it developed the electronic systems for the aircraft.

The future radar will be based on the photonic technology that greatly expands the possibilities of communication and radar as their weight will be decreased by more than half and the resolution will increase tenfold.

The ultra-wideband ROFAR signal allows one to virtually get a TV picture on a radar range. Radio photonic technology, in particular, will enhance the capabilities of the latest generation of Russian airplanes and helicopters.

“After our work on ROFAR, a list of aircrafts both manned and unmanned will be presented with an offer to be equipped with the radar based on radio-optical phased arrays. I think that the PAK FA will also be on this list and there will be specific proposals given to it,” Mikheyev told reporters, adding that the final decision will be taken by the Department of Defense.

The developer of ROFAR, KRET has established a laboratory on radio photonics. The concern has already started to perform laboratory tests to create ROFAR. Designed to be finished in 4.5 years, the project remains on schedule, which was agreed on with the Foundation for Advanced Studies.

As was earlier reported by the Deputy CEO of KRET, Igor Nasenkov, the company intends to establish a full-scale sample of the future radar by 2018.

“The PAK FA is a fifth-generation aircraft, with a number of brand-new technologies used in its development. It is a 100 percent digital aircraft. It can provide full information support to the pilot. The aircraft is equipped with versatile antenna systems built in its covering,” Nasenkov said during the Dubai Airshow 2015.





Russian PAK FA to be Equipped With Futuristic Photonic Radar

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## ANPP

hello fellows,
I returned after long time and what I see is the speculations about PAKFA. Dont know whether i should smile or cry. As there is very narrow beam of hope from Rafale by now, so PAKFA is the only hope for IAF! but this project cancellation, on the other hand, somewhere, gives hope and movement um to AMCA and LCA.

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## knight11

The Eagle said:


> just wan to know what is the main difference between FGFA and PAK FA. Pardon me in advance if the question is no worth. Thanks



1. Both will be based on the T-50
2. FGFA would be for Indian and Russians would use PAK FA
3. FGFA would be smaller than PAK FA
4. FGFA would be MKI of PAK FA, and would be more stealthy, while PAK FA would be better Agile
5. FFGA would use extensive use of Composites, while PAK FA would be use high Titanium
6. FGFA would be cheaper than PAK FA
7. For FGFA indian's prefer twin seater, but right now its not finalized.
8. FGFA is the tailor product for the IAF, and would use western avionics and littlebit indian contribution.



ANPP said:


> hello fellows,
> I returned after long time and what I see is the speculations about PAKFA. Dont know whether i should smile or cry. As there is very narrow beam of hope from Rafale by now, so PAKFA is the only hope for IAF! but this project cancellation, on the other hand, somewhere, gives hope and movement um to AMCA and LCA.


There is no cancellation what so ever but rather a specullation of the media nothing else. Be asure it is not cancelled, and surely will be developed.

The delay in FGFA is good for us, because it will give us some ample time to induct Rafale and relief us from the budget constrains. Some of the specullations :

1. Russians are not allowing IAF to fly T-50 --- IAF is just a user, its the HAL- and Sukhoi JV not IAF and Sukhoi.
2. The heart of the fighter plane i.e Engine is not ready yet.
3. Modi visit to Russia and didn't signed the deal --- Does it mean anything, which could be done on some other event or meating.

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## ANPP

Dont keep high hopes from this project. Its just the starting. May be they delay or scrap it and built whole new fighter. Offcourse Indian involvement gives little lesser room for russian for doing this though. Keep the waiting game on in forum,

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## The Eagle

Sri said:


> Some are mentioned here.... basically FGFA is more advanced and refined version of PAKFA.
> India to customise Russia's FGFA planes - The Hindu





knight11 said:


> 1. Both will be based on the T-50
> 2. FGFA would be for Indian and Russians would use PAK FA
> 3. FGFA would be smaller than PAK FA
> 4. FGFA would be MKI of PAK FA, and would be more stealthy, while PAK FA would be better Agile
> 5. FFGA would use extensive use of Composites, while PAK FA would be use high Titanium
> 6. FGFA would be cheaper than PAK FA
> 7. For FGFA indian's prefer twin seater, but right now its not finalized.
> 8. FGFA is the tailor product for the IAF, and would use western avionics and littlebit indian contribution



Thanks for precise information. However heard about delay or cancellation of program so the question came across the mind what could be the difference that Russia actually offers cheaper deal on PAK-FA and is not going for FGFA. Though some members have already posted in detail and it is mentioned that Russia might not want to share the technology. So, if FGFA is a different aircraft in some areas then i don't think so that they would have any objection hence it could be something else stopping them from FGFA or may be i am wrong but my thoughts only.


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## Perpendicular

Everybody needs to chill out about the news of PAKFA being cancelled,
Meanwhile

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## knight11

The Eagle said:


> Thanks for precise information. However heard about delay or cancellation of program so the question came across the mind what could be the difference that Russia actually offers cheaper deal on PAK-FA and is not going for FGFA. Though some members have already posted in detail and it is mentioned that Russia might not want to share the technology. So, if FGFA is a different aircraft in some areas then i don't think so that they would have any objection hence it could be something else stopping them from FGFA or may be i am wrong but my thoughts only.



Then the question is for those who think that Russia is not going to share the technology is which technology.

Engine -- I don't think, nor India is asking for it.
Stealth -- Who need it AMCA is ADA project not HAL, and HAL don't have any fifth gen fighter project in future
Weapon -- Astra-2, Mini Brahmos do they think Russia is denying them.

The doubt was in the IAF mind, that they won't be able to get the stealth, what they desired, because Russians are putting emphasis on the manuerability, and the status of the Engine. India have a problem, because Russia asking for too much money for just 3 prototype aka they feel Russia is developing the t-50 on the expense of India. And doubt on Russia due to the fact its economy is not encouraging, which is delaying the project.

*Russian PAK FA to be Equipped With Futuristic Photonic Radar*
© Flickr/ Mario Sainz Martínez
Military & Intelligence
14:41 30.12.2015(updated 16:30 30.12.2015) Get short URL
57167571
*Russia’s fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (T-50) may be equipped with an advanced radar which is currently being developed by a Russian corporation.*




© Sputnik/ Alexey Filippov
Russian T-50 PAK-FA Jet Flight Tests Near Completion
The radar will be based on Radio-Optical Phased Arrays (ROFAR), explained the adviser of the first deputy general director of concern Radio-Electronic Technology (KRET) Vladimir Mikheev.
KRET is a part of Russia’s Rostec corporation, it developed the electronic systems for the aircraft.

The future radar will be based on the photonic technology that greatly expands the possibilities of communication and radar as their weight will be decreased by more than half and the resolution will increase tenfold.

The ultra-wideband ROFAR signal allows one to virtually get a TV picture on a radar range. Radio photonic technology, in particular, will enhance the capabilities of the latest generation of Russian airplanes and helicopters.

“After our work on ROFAR, a list of aircrafts both manned and unmanned will be presented with an offer to be equipped with the radar based on radio-optical phased arrays. I think that the PAK FA will also be on this list and there will be specific proposals given to it,” Mikheyev told reporters, adding that the final decision will be taken by the Department of Defense.

The developer of ROFAR, KRET has established a laboratory on radio photonics. The concern has already started to perform laboratory tests to create ROFAR. Designed to be finished in 4.5 years, the project remains on schedule, which was agreed on with the Foundation for Advanced Studies.

As was earlier reported by the Deputy CEO of KRET, Igor Nasenkov, the company intends to establish a full-scale sample of the future radar by 2018.

“The PAK FA is a fifth-generation aircraft, with a number of brand-new technologies used in its development. It is a 100 percent digital aircraft. It can provide full information support to the pilot. The aircraft is equipped with versatile antenna systems built in its covering,” Nasenkov said during the Dubai Airshow 2015.


Read more: Russian PAK FA to be Equipped With Futuristic Photonic Radar

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## Bharat_Bhakt

Perpendicular said:


> Everybody needs to chill out about the news of PAKFA being cancelled,
> Meanwhile
> View attachment 283952


are you saying we wont get twin seat version of russian 5th gen but will have single seat version instead what is your point ?


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## Perpendicular

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> are you saying we wont get twin seat version of russian 5th gen but will have single seat version instead what is your point ?


Highly unlikely a twin seater.


----------



## The Eagle

knight11 said:


> Then the question is for those who think that Russia is not going to share the technology is which technology.
> 
> Engine -- I don't think, nor India is asking for it.
> Stealth -- Who need it AMCA is ADA project not HAL, and HAL don't have any fifth gen fighter project in future
> Weapon -- Astra-2, Mini Brahmos do they think Russia is denying them.
> 
> The doubt was in the IAF mind, that they won't be able to get the stealth, what they desired, because Russians are putting emphasis on the manuerability, and the status of the Engine. India have a problem, because Russia asking for too much money for just 3 prototype aka they feel Russia is developing the t-50 on the expense of India. And doubt on Russia due to the fact its economy is not encouraging, which is delaying the project.
> 
> *Russian PAK FA to be Equipped With Futuristic Photonic Radar*
> © Flickr/ Mario Sainz Martínez
> Military & Intelligence
> 14:41 30.12.2015(updated 16:30 30.12.2015) Get short URL
> 57167571
> *Russia’s fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (T-50) may be equipped with an advanced radar which is currently being developed by a Russian corporation.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Sputnik/ Alexey Filippov
> Russian T-50 PAK-FA Jet Flight Tests Near Completion
> 
> 
> Read more: Russian PAK FA to be Equipped With Futuristic Photonic Radar



Exactly that's the point i raised that when Russia is already sharing PAK-FA then there is no question at all that Russia is hesitating to share anything or something with India though the interest areas of India were hopefully already on paper while they signed for JV for the first time beck there so Russia would not say No after such a period. So i come to the conclusion almost that its just one has something on mind and other speculated something different however, things will be sorted.


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## PARIKRAMA

ANALYSIS Based on PAKFA new KRET Radar Detection of Aircraft at 500 KM


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## Ankit Kumar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/691094842999345152

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## Ind4Ever

*Progress Reported on Indian Version of Sukhoi T-50*
by Vladimir Karnozov
February 1, 2016, 9:45 AM




Negotiations to create an Indian version of the Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA stealth fighter have reportedly made progress. (Photos: Vladimir Karnozov)
the visit to Moscow by Indian Prime Minister Narendra last December, although no announcement was made.

Each of the partners will invest $4 billion over the next seven years, including $2 billion each in the first year and the rest evenly distributed over the six years that follow. The total cost of development is now put at $10 billion, compared with $12 billion previously cited. The balance of $2 billion still required would be recouped from export sales, it is now reported.

United Aircraft (UAC) and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would be the industrial partners, with HAL having a workshare of at least 25 percent, and Bharat Electronics also playing a significant role. In similar fashion to the licensed production of the Su-30MKI for the Indian air force, the Indian companies will manage the replacement of Russian avionics, including mission and navigation computers; display and management systems; and self-protection systems. The result will be a considerably different aircraft from the PAKFA, and will effectively be the export version.

The Indian air force is seeking to procure 250 FGFAs. Earlier Indian sources estimated the unit production cost at $100 million, similar to that of the Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the acceptance process for the PAKFA has taken one year so far, preceded by five years of flight trials. The Russian air force expects to receive its first aircraft next year, and to have 55 in service by 2020. Initial production aircraft will be powered by a pair ofNPO Saturn/UMPO AL-41F1 turbofans (also known as “Item 117”). They will later be replaced by more powerful, reliable and efficient “Item 30” engines now in development by an industrial group supervised by the United Engine Corporation (Russian acronym ODK).



Perpendicular said:


> Everybody needs to chill out about the news of PAKFA being cancelled,
> Meanwhile
> View attachment 283952



Best news are always kept out of our enemies. Trust me . more took place on this front even though there was no announcement made during our PM visit to Moscow. We leaked out new report suggest 

4 billion dollars will be infused by both India and Russia in coming years and then 500 million each for the next 4 to 5 years . Money spent and money invested more than previously planned could be taken back as profit sharing among the both with export orders in future. That's sounds like a good deal and well start for both to move forward. 

Good to see FGFA is taking MKI way . which as played important role in Sukoi aerospace industry and creating best variant called MKI . Now Russia inducting them in large numbers even though Su35 striking right cords till now. 
I heard many countries are now interested in buying Su30 SM a MKI russian variant than Su35 itself. So FGFA is of great interest for both India and Russia than PAKFA Variant. Sounds very positive for Indian prospective. 

5 years of vigorous exercise testing will be carried out on Indian FGFA .

Latest reports from many portals confirmed that HAL will now gets the share of 25% or even 30 % after testing is completed is a quite positive news for IAF too 

This project is a go ahead. 

Problems ? : Yes still not sorted out are 

1) India wants more powerful and more efficient engine for optimized performance and lowering the cost of fighter operation. Ie operational Cost. Which is no where near completion. I don't think PAKFA will ever have Item 30 engine before 2022 . 

2) Even though matured proto type of PAKFA are flying out many flaws are unsolved . like one such problem with PAKFA would have to be redesigned for more stealth characteristic from materials used . So even though the frame is complete stealth surface is not on par with F22 or even F35 . Not sure about this news but come of the concerns been discussed as we speak. 

3) Timely delivery is something serious than we presumed. Its gonna be chasing a chicken story. 

Hope we both overcome these problems and focus on good deeds this project can bring and make it a huge successfully completed 5th generation project.






Check this picture. Very interesting one . This what India wants to be more futuristic than what China will get with Su35...

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## PARIKRAMA

T50 with weapons bay open


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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> T50 with weapons bay open


I really wonder how 5th generation fighter performance against 4++ gen Multirole fighters regarding Air to Ground role without losing its stealth mode???

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## hembo

*India, Russia revive fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin*
Wednesday, February 10, 2016
By: Business Standard 






After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia have revived talks on the much delayed Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) even as cost negotiations for the joint production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters have begun.
A high level Russian delegation is in town to hold negotiations on both the projects, high-level defence sources said.
"We have got the clearance to restart the talks. Accordingly, a Russian team is here and cost negotiations began yesterday"; the sources said.

India has already pumped in about $290 million into the project but it got delayed because the IAF had some issues.
Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint FGFA initiative.

Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters.

In 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter.

The code name of the project in India is Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF).

The Russian delegation will also hold talks with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 200 Kamov 226T light helicopters to replace the ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak, in a deal estimated to be worth $1 billion under the "Make in India"; initiative.

Defence Ministry had in August last year scrapped a scam-tainted tender worth over Rs 6,000 crore to procure 197 light utility helicopters for Army and Air Force to replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are used to move troops and equipment to high-altitude locations like Siachen.

Following Russia's offer to manufacture Kamov in India, the Defence Acquisition Council, chaired by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, accepted it. 

Though the initial order is only for 200 helicopters, it is likely to be increased later on.

In the meanwhile:

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> T50 with weapons bay open



CGI.



Ind4Ever said:


> I really wonder how 5th generation fighter performance against 4++ gen Multirole fighters regarding Air to Ground role without losing its stealth mode???



Markedly superior due to the internal bays. Aircraft can come in supersonic and leave at the same speed. The point being, enemy aircraft should not be given the chance to engage the strike aircraft.

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

knight11 said:


> 1. Both will be based on the T-50
> 2. FGFA would be for Indian and Russians would use PAK FA
> 3. FGFA would be smaller than PAK FA
> 4. FGFA would be MKI of PAK FA, and would be more stealthy, while PAK FA would be better Agile
> 5. FFGA would use extensive use of Composites, while PAK FA would be use high Titanium
> 6. FGFA would be cheaper than PAK FA
> 7. For FGFA indian's prefer twin seater, but right now its not finalized.
> 8. FGFA is the tailor product for the IAF, and would use western avionics and littlebit indian contribution.


I still think FGFA will be very expensive birds because HAL & IAF wants too many twicks in the jet. Adding composite material instead of the original material(titanium) will result in another 2-3 years delay and price hike plus we want more stealthier jet, smaller than the PAKFA and all these changes plus at cheaper cost than the PAKFA.

I think the HAL & IAF are definitely smoking something new..


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## randomradio

Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> I still think FGFA will be very expensive birds because HAL & IAF wants too many twicks in the jet. Adding composite material instead of the original material(titanium) will result in another 2-3 years delay and price hike plus we want more stealthier jet, smaller than the PAKFA and all these changes plus at cheaper cost than the PAKFA.
> 
> I think the HAL & IAF are definitely smoking something new..



New composites have been invented in Russia for FGFA. It will have RAM baked into the structure of the aircraft.

We have chosen the same airframe as Russia.


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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

randomradio said:


> New composites have been invented in Russia for FGFA. It will have RAM baked into the structure of the aircraft.
> 
> We have chosen the same airframe as Russia.


But you said FGFA will use composites instead of Titanium, so it will result in rise of cost doesn't matter who develops it.


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## randomradio

Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> But you said FGFA will use composites instead of Titanium, so it will result in rise of cost doesn't matter who develops it.



The rise in costs is due to a new configuration for FGFA, like the new ROFAR. The composites were always planned. Due to the devaluation of rupee(35%) and ruble(250%) since 2012, the cost of the PAK FA/FGFA program has reduced in dollar terms, but has risen significantly in local currencies. Cost of R&D in India has been matched with reduction to $3.7T. But cost in Russia has increased funds for PAK FA by a large amount, 2.5 times after money from India is infused into the program compared to earlier.

With the 2.5 times devaluation, the Russians can afford a much larger scale of R&D with Indian money.

@Picdelamirand-oil We were discussing this before IDF was attacked(I think).

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## Armani

T-50-5R in sunlight; amazing!












Thanks to *gadeshi*

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## Armani



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## Perpendicular

Apparently during recent tests, rate of climb of PAKFA was 384m/s.

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## nik141993

Perpendicular said:


> Apparently during recent tests, rate of climb of PAKFA was 384m/s.


& this is with the old engine wait for new engine I am hoping for 400m/s

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## randomradio

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/700649635103178753

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## Great Sachin

can I have one


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## Project 4202

Why on Earth would they disclose this information?

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## randomradio

Project 4202 said:


> Why on Earth would they disclose this information?



Because this version is not the main version for induction.


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## sasum

*Try and Beat This! Russian PAK FA Stealth Fighter Sets a New Record*
Published February 20, 2016
SOURCE: SPUTNIK






The PAK FA (T-50), Russia’s new fifth-generation fighter, sets new standards of excellence during a routine test flight.During testing the aircraft managed to achieve a 384 meters per second climbing rate. According to Russian newspaper Rossiyskaya Gazeta, such a climbing speed would’ve allowed the warplane to reach an altitude equal to the peak of Mount Everest, the highest mountain on Earth, in a mere 23 seconds.

The aircraft is currently undergoing a serious of tests, some of them involving the use of live weapons. According to Russian Aerospace Forces Commander Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev, the final aircraft of the test batch will be completed this year.

In addition to its already-impressive characteristics and stealth capability, the new warplane will also be outfitted with a host of cutting-edge weaponry, such as the advanced X-74M2 cruise missile, X-58USHK anti-radar missile and tactical X-35UE anti-ship missile. The aircraft is also equipped with advanced avionics and a cutting-edge phased array radar system.

The T-50 is a single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter, and the first operational aircraft in Russian service to use stealth technology. The warplane is due to enter service by the end of 2016.

Meanwhile, several foreign powers have already expressed an interest in the new warplane, and the serial manufacturing of an export version of PAK FA is scheduled to begin in 2020

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## Armani

sasum said:


> In addition to its already-impressive characteristics and stealth capability, the new warplane will also be outfitted with a host of cutting-edge weaponry, such as the advanced X-74M2 cruise missile, X-58USHK anti-radar missile and tactical X-35UE anti-ship missile.



X-74M2 (or K-74M/M2) is not a cruise missile. It's the NG version of the R-73 IR-guided WVRAAM. The PAK-FA/FGFA is going to get a whole new range of AAMs;




^^ Thanks to @randomradio for the pic.

K-30 (Izdeliye 300)





The K-77M (Iz. 180) is the next-gen R-77 Adder with an AESA seeker-head. K-77ME (Iz. 180-PD) is it's supposed Ramjet version with extended range. The 180-PD is thought to be cancelled and superseded by a new Ramjet AAM project. I don't think pictures of the missile itself are not available, but it's supposed prototype seeker has been shown :




Again thanks to randomradio ^^ for the pic.


The X-58UShKE ASM





Kh-35U/UE (already produced)





X-38M ASM (successor to old Kh-25)





and don't forget...the X-59Mk2 ASM

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## Armani

@randomradio

Found this;






They say it's the 810. This is from 2008 so I guess the design we're seeing now is updated (no forward fins).

Either way it's a lot of info. Can't be sure if it's official though.


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## randomradio

Armani said:


> @randomradio
> 
> Found this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They say it's the 810. This is from 2008 so I guess the design we're seeing now is updated (no forward fins).
> 
> Either way it's a lot of info. Can't be sure if it's official though.



I don't know if this image is true, but it could be the 610M, not the 810. The RVV-BD is the export version.






Nothing about the 810 has been revealed so far.

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## Armani

Crossposting from other forums, thanks to *gadeshi* for the post.

*Supersonic burning Detonated Resonating afterburner*
Another property of the Izdeliye-30 engine



> Supersonic burning process gives us rather higher gas pressure in afterburner and thus rather higher afterburning thrust especially on high altitudes.
> Detonative resonated burning process gives us the highest possible fuel efficiency due to full fuel burning without Serum remainings. And this type of burning is rather more stable and laminar than usual subsonic one.
> This is in fact a technological revolution that makes us much closer to G6 engines.

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## phantomrush

Project 4202 said:


> Why on Earth would they disclose this information?


Because it is not the final test, and will be higher. Do not forget that test planes even overly heavy.



Armani said:


> Crossposting from other forums, thanks to *gadeshi* for the post.
> 
> *Supersonic burning Detonated Resonating afterburner*
> Another property of the Izdeliye-30 engine


On the Russian thematic forums more restrained comments on this engine, but what he will surpass all there is at the moment, a fact.
By the way, 384 m / minute it turns supersonic climb  thrust-weight ratio is greater than 1.

Jim Goodall - Cover Photos | Facebook


Very interesting comment by Bill Sweetman (Jane's editor and Aviation Week)
People who think the Russians have to copy everything get my goat. The configuration (flight control, weapon integration) is so totally unlike the YF-23 or the F-22 that it's not funny. And they avoided the giant flappy h-tails and Big Ears vertical stabs of the F-22, and they got three-axis vectoring with single-axis nozzles, which is a pretty good trick in my book.
Whether they have the money to make it all work well in reasonable time (we did not!) Is another question.


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## Project 4202

phantomrush said:


> Because it is not the final test, and will be higher. Do not forget that test planes even overly heavy.
> .




it does not matter, they should have no clue to what PAK FA is capable of , let them think PAK FA is junk underestimation only works in our favor.

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## randomradio



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## #hydra#

Project 4202 said:


> it does not matter, they should have no clue to what PAK FA is capable of , let them think PAK FA is junk underestimation only works in our favor.


Yet most of indian members underestimating lot of chinese stuffs including jf17..


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## mirage

Indian Air Force pilots will be allowed to test PAK-FA: UAC Chief


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## PARIKRAMA



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## sathya

People are going to die of dehydration from drooling and waiting

No Rafale ' no pak fa ..


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## Armani



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## SR-91

Should've painted it matters black, almost like this.








Anyways, waiting to see what changes will be done on the 6th prototype.


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## randomradio



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## Sheikh Hussain

Apologies if already posted:

A Nice snap, PAK-FA(T-50-054) being followed by Su-35 





Another similar photo from MAKS(SU 34 - T50 PAK FA - SU 35):

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


>



How unique is the rear Sband radar in its class and how helpful will it be ?


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## Blue Marlin

@cloud4000
continuing on from the post : China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan | Page 45

what is going on with the t-50? tell me if im wrong.


the Russian t-50 is a single seat 5th gen fighter with is being mass produced (or getting certified) next year [2017]

the Indian variant of the t-50 is a dual seat variant.which is to be inducted 2022-2025

and your now looking at inducting 60 ish.



randomradio said:


> The rise in costs is due to a new configuration for FGFA, like the new ROFAR. The composites were always planned. Due to the devaluation of rupee(35%) and ruble(250%) since 2012, the cost of the PAK FA/FGFA program has reduced in dollar terms, but has risen significantly in local currencies. Cost of R&D in India has been matched with reduction to $3.7T. But cost in Russia has increased funds for PAK FA by a large amount, 2.5 times after money from India is infused into the program compared to earlier.
> 
> With the 2.5 times devaluation, the Russians can afford a much larger scale of R&D with Indian money.
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil We were discussing this before IDF was attacked(I think).


what IDF? theres a [ d*f*i] ignore the asterisks


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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> @cloud4000
> continuing on from the post : China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan | Page 45
> 
> what is going on with the t-50? tell me if im wrong.
> 
> 
> the Russian t-50 is a single seat 5th gen fighter with is being mass produced (or getting certified) next year [2017]




This is the first phase of the program. Except for 12 LRIP models, the RuAF has not yet decided to induct this variant yet.




> the Indian variant of the t-50 is a dual seat variant.which is to be inducted 2022-2025



There are four known variants. The first one is the variant you keep hearing in the news. The second, third and fourth are similar, but one is Russia specific and the other two are India specific.

The other three variants are yet to be seen.

Basically:
PAK FA program: Variant 1: Single seat. What you see today.
PAK FA/PMI program: Variant 2: Single seat. Russian version that will come out of the Indo-Russian JV. Yet to fly.

PMI program: Variant 3: Single seat. Indian version that will be modified from Russian Variant 2.
PMI program: Variant 4: The two seat Variant 3.

The first variant may not be inducted beyond one or two squadrons in Russia, maybe not even that much. The second, third and fourth variants will be the standard production models. They will have new engines, new radars etc.

The Variant 2 first prototype is yet to see first flight, possibly in 2018 or 2019. But the basic technologies will continue being developed on older prototypes.

People don't know about this phased development of the PAK FA/FGFA, that's why there is so much confusion.



> and your now looking at inducting 60 ish.



In order to control IAF's dwindling squadron numbers, they plan on inducting 60 Variant 2s directly from Russia. This is still being worked out. Whether they will go for it or not is yet to be seen. There will be a 3 year delay between development of Russian Variant 2 and Indian Variant 3, so we can buy 60 Variant 2s in that time. These will be made in Russia.

The main plan is to buy 154 Variant 3s. The Variant 4 contract will come at a later date for 50+ more. These will be made in India.

Of course, more variants are planned. There's the Mark 2 models, the navy model and the unmanned model. Maybe even a strike model.



> what IDF? theres a [ d*f*i] ignore the asterisks



indiandefence.com

It's down.

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## Armani



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## Perpendicular

With unguided bombs.


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## Perpendicular

Recently carried inner bay tests. Can't confirm that any sort of weapons deployment was involved.


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## wiseone2

Perpendicular said:


> Recently carried inner bay tests. Can't confirm that any sort of weapons deployment was involved.



I will be surprised if the Russians can make a true 5th generation fighter aircraft


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## ptldM3

Looks like RAM coating

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## Perpendicular



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## SR-91

ptldM3 said:


> Looks like RAM coating
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 300978
> View attachment 300977





Is that the 6th prototype?


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## Armani



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## Perpendicular

The 6th prototype took its first flight yesterday.

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## SR-91

Perpendicular said:


> The 6th prototype took its first flight yesterday.




Nice, any pics


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## Perpendicular

SR-91 said:


> Nice, any pics







This might be the one.

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## #hydra#

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 303131
> 
> This might be the one.


Still no RAM coating,when they are going to use ram on su50?


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## ptldM3

Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 303131
> 
> This might be the one.




That is not -6, just T-50-5.



SR-91 said:


> Is that the 6th prototype?




Sorry for the late reply, as for your question, no it's not.

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## Perpendicular

#hydra# said:


> Still no RAM coating,when they are going to use ram on su50?



_ Available images of the prototype which may differ from the final production version.With the current testing phase prototypes may not necessary have the full VLO treatment like RAM coatings which is not needed when performing non-stealth related tests like weapons integration and may lead to falsely optimistic conclusions by Western defense analysts._




ptldM3 said:


> That is not -6, just T-50-5.


May be its this one 




I wish

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## #hydra#

Perpendicular said:


> _ Available images of the prototype which may differ from the final production version.With the current testing phase prototypes may not necessary have the full VLO treatment like RAM coatings which is not needed when performing non-stealth related tests like weapons integration and may lead to falsely optimistic conclusions by Western defense analysts._
> 
> 
> 
> May be its this one
> View attachment 303230
> 
> I wish


But RAM pannels do contribute towards weight of the aircraft,which inturn cause shift in centre of gravity.


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## Perpendicular

T50 - 6
@SR-91 @ptldM3

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## cyric



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## C130

just how many prototypes does Pak-Fa need

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## PARIKRAMA

*Stronger steel: how to create innovative technology for glazing aircraft T-50*





New manufacturing techniques of glazing cabins military and civilian aircraft from silicate glass developed in Russia. Such products are lighter and stronger than if they were made of the previously used organic materials. Silicate glass is used in other areas -. From Space to housing among the explorers that's more than a year has been simmering dispute over the evaluation of the safety and operation of the International Space Station. The fact that in the Russian segment of the ISS installed 13 windows. During the joint discussion of the work of the ISS proposed to close the windows in the Russian segment of the blind plugs because of the risk of defects in the glass due to the impacts of micrometeorites - say, the safety of the plant can be improved. But the representative of the Russian side - the director of the Scientific and Technical Research Institute of Glass (INTN), Honored Worker of Science, Vice-President of the Academy of Engineering Sciences, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Professor Vladimir Solinov stands on its - for many years the residual strength after impact of space microparticles preserved and a variety of radiation and other space threat had no effect on the security created by the Institute of the windows, as well as the crew, therefore, reason to restrict observation of our planet, "dimming" the work of the astronauts in the Russian modules of the space station there. The portholes for the space station - only one of the few products manufactured in INTN. The main part of the work of scientists and the Institute of Technology, located in the south-west of Moscow, of course, connected with the creation of products of constructional optics, glass, or as they say here "transparent complex optical systems" for combat aircraft fourth and fifth generations, produced KLA plants. And it becomes much more every year for aviation work.

*Silicate or organic*





Photo: blank windshield T-50 in the tape for hardening. Silicate glass - a material with unique properties. Its transparency, high optical, heat resistance, strength, ability to use different coatings - make it indispensable for glazing aircraft. But why in the cockpit glazing abroad and we have the advantage given to organics? Only for one reason - it is easier. They also say that the silica glass is too fragile. In the last few years the development of materials scientists INTN allowed radically change the perception of silicate glass as a brittle material. Modern methods allow to give hardening glazing for modern combat aircraft strength sufficient to withstand a bird weighing about two kilograms at a speed of 900 km / h. "Today, a method of hardening the surface layer has exhausted itself. It is time to change the internal structure of the glass, its deficiency ", - says Vladimir Solinov. This is not strange, contribute to the sanctions imposed by the West. The fact is that even in the "dosanktsionnye" for foreign firms in NATO decision not available in Russia improved quality silicate glass used there for special purposes. This forced INTN use architectural and building glass. Although Russian manufacturers produce millions of square meters of glass of the glass, the quality is not suitable for use in aviation. To help it import substitution: Moscow launched a new project to conduct research and development and design of fundamentally new for the glass industry equipment. It and will work out all the processes of synthesis glass with Russia a priority. to carry out the project is entrusted to a young scientist Tatiana Kiseleva. 26-year-old graduate of the Russian Chemical-Technological University. Mendeleev headed the laboratory, in 2015 she defended her thesis. On the glass department at "Mendeleevke" Tatiana studied the properties of transparent armor. One of her professional challenges - to develop a glass that is superior in its properties to one of the best world analogues - glass "Herkulit" that Russia is not yet released. The project is based on a new original method of melting glass.Already today, glass samples obtained in the laboratory, in which structural strength of three times the analogues obtained by traditional method. Add to this available hardening methods, and receive the glass, the strength of which is several times the many varieties of stainless steel. Of the more resistant glass produced lighter products. However, it should be noted that the developers plexiglass constantly improve the technical performance of its products, the debate about what the glass is better, is not over. Lantern T-50 Photo:. Aircraft glazing kit T-50 - the front hood and the folding of the Imagine package several plates of silicate glass, which is necessary to give a streamlined shape of the front visor high-speed aircraft. More about forty years ago, has developed a technology INTN deep bending.In a special furnace laid several layers of glass. Within several hours at high temperature under the glass is bent by its own weight, getting the desired shape and curvature. If necessary, special arrangements are pushing the workpiece, causing it to flex special plan. For the first time in the world in this technology in the MiG-29 replaced the lamp, consisting of three glasses per besperepletnoe glass silicate. From the growth rate increased requirements for heat resistance of glazing with organic glass which could no longer cope. At the same time we tightened the optical requirements and visibility requirements. Several years ago, in collaboration with the Company "Sukhoi" United Aircraft Corporation of new technology for the production of glass has been developed for the T-50. The development was funded by aircraft manufacturers, in part - by the Ministry of Industry and Trade. Substantial assistance was provided to conduct the re-equipment of the enterprise, the director of the Technology Centre KLA Yury Tarasov. As a result, the aircraft T-50 windshield size almost twice the size of the canopy of the MiG-29, and the shape of the product of the classic cylinder evolved into a complex 3D format. The result - the first time in the world is made of silica glass and frontal flap of the aircraft T-50 lamp (made "Sukhoi" company) in 3D. The weight of these parts turned out to be lower than if they were made of organic glass. The achieved results gave rise to equip such aircraft glazing other plants and design bureaus belonging to the KLA. Immediately there was a need to modernize, replace the glazing on the organic silicate, such as the Yak-130 aircraft, the Su-35, MiG-31, MiG-35. After this change (ie. E. Improve the strength characteristics of glazing) MiG-35, for example, for the first time has a top speed of up to 2000 km / h, that is able to fly faster on average 40% higher than any other aircraft in the world. In recent years, serious I change the work style of the Moscow scientists. About three hundred INTN professionals perform a complete cycle - from specification to small-scale production. . Here and technology development, and selection of key materials using glass, and a large cycle of tests on all the influencing factors of aircraft both on the ground and in the air By modern glass impose several key requirements, including, in addition to high strength, - Optical transparency, high light transmission, increasing sight range, anti-glare properties, protection from solar radiation and other radiation, anti-icing properties, providing a uniform resistivity of the electric heating. All this is achieved by applying a spray coating, or vacuum magnetron process. Powerful and sophisticated equipment, volatile metal and deposited it on the surface of the glass, allow INTN apply any coating, including protecting against spetsfaktorov. This set of features allows you to talk about the product glazing as a complex optical system and high strength glass quality, which forms part of the cab aircraft, have created a new field of science and technology and coined the term "products of constructional optics" (PPI). New technologies photo:. loading the glass sheet for further processing when the product - the hinged part of the canopy for T-50 - discharged from the furnace for further processing, it bears little resemblance to the future of the product. When the bending edge of the glass blanks are deformed, and remove them from the large-sized workpiece, and even having a complex geometric shape, diamond tool impossible. I come to the aid of a laser. The laser beam robot has not only cuts the workpiece in accordance with laid down in his program, but also melted edge increases edge strength of the product, preventing the cracks. Laser cutting products of large 3D form first used in Moscow. This method received a patent in March 2012. Laser light is also used for applying a cutoff conductive layer on the glass surface, creating a heating zone. After the laser treatment the preform increasingly becoming like a lantern T-50.After cutting each preform subjected to the five-axis machine. The unique cradle allows her initial zero voltage installation. Chief Technologist Institute Alexander Sitkin told about the prospects of complex use for grinding and polishing glass surfaces: work that is carried out by hand if necessary. Developed technology - pride of the institute. More recently finished glass block using sealant mounted in a metal frame. Daylight INTN composite materials has allowed the development of products to reduce weight by 25%, increase ptitsestoykost glazing and glazing resource to the resource level glider. Replacement glass has become possible to carry out in the field. All PPI production cycle lasts about one and a half months. Most of the products are factory-KLA, part - to repair factories to upgrade, and some - in the Air Force airfields in the so-called kits. The main part of INTN production is performed in the framework of the state defense order. In INTN reluctant to share information about the characteristics of the glazing for aircraft. But it is clear that glass, designed for booths of domestic civil aircraft on a number of parameters are superior to imports. For example, as can be seen on the website INTN, glass thickness on the Tu-204 - 17 mm, glass thickness, with the same properties in the Boeing 787 - 45 mm . the V generation of the last few years the Institute Director Vladimir Solinov managed to significantly rejuvenate the team. At the Moscow production, noted the recent 60th anniversary are now working and young people, and experienced professionals. These senior students' Mendeleevki "reluctant.When he came to practice in the Institute, and knew that here pay 70 thousand. Rubles, first arranged ordinary workers, then quickly grow to technologists. Lots and experienced workers. One of them, Nikolai Yakunin, processes glass for helicopters. "I came here immediately after the army, forty years ago. But if not for the high level of automation, probably would not have survived. I was even in good physical shape with a product weight of 30 kg to work the whole day heavy "-. Said Yakunin People and nails in the world designed for aircraft manufacturing technology to produce glass required strength, used in many other sectors of the economy. A few years back to prove high strength silica glass, the institute made ... glass nails. Clog hammer. They could be used in products with anti-magnetic properties. Also, these nails were tested during construction, instead of clamps when gluing yacht hulls. But the nails were only exotic. Now no need to prove the high performance strength of glass - all works INTN - evidence of the high quality of this ancient and, at the same time, a completely new material. Institute director Vladimir Solinov do its best in order to prove the need to ensure a high strength of glass, including architecture -. construction It is a member of the Russian-American Commission on security in space, which was discussed earlier in this article, as well as Urban Development Commission of the State Duma - for the construction of modern buildings of all most of the material - glass. This means that technology developed for aviation and materials in the near future will make the lives of millions of people more comfortable and safe.


















http://uacrussia.livejournal.com/43060.html

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## Pumba



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## shree835



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## Local_Legend

CHAUDA RANGE (Russia) (Sputnik) — The Russian Aerospace Forces will receive first units of the Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighter aircraft in 2017, Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev, the Russian Aerospace Forces commander, said Saturday.



"There are five [T-50 fighters] at the [Russian] Chkalov's State Flight Testing Center, they are being tested, and beginning in 2017 they will be arriving to our service," Bondarev told reporters.

The commander stressed that there were no delays and the development of the aircraft had been carried out ahead of the schedule.

"The aircraft is truly amazing by piloting, navigation and other characteristics, it detects other aircraft at a very large distance, it has no equal in this. We have much to be proud of, and we are delighted to receive such an aircraft," he added.

The T-50 was presented at the Crimea's eastern Chauda practive range earlier in the day.





From Sputnic News . 
(Sorry , New here . So cant post links )

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## Perpendicular

T50 ready for serial production.
Next prototype that will apparently fly on June 20th will be the first fighter to be executed in a technical form for combat units.

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## Perpendicular



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## 1000VA



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## randomradio

Looks like Photoshop.

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## SR-91

randomradio said:


> Looks like Photoshop.



And a nice one!!!


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## SR-91

SUKHOI DOCUMENTARY


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## Local_Legend

T-50 is ready for serial production Published June 19, 2016 SOURCE: Izvestia WITH INPUTS FROM IDRW NEWS NETWORK United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) is preparing a preliminary report on the production of the initial batch of the latest fifth-generation fighter T-50 for supply of air and space forces of Russia. According to “Izvestia”, June 20, Komsomolsk-on-Amur, would rise into the air eighth car series, almost fully meets the requirements of the military’s combat capabilities to the fifth-generation fighter. Unlike previous aircraft eighth aircraft is fully equipped with equipment and systems prescribed in the specifications to create a promising aviation complex tactical – he said “Izvestia” a source close to the KLA. – It is with the advent of the fighters can say that the T-50 as a combat unit has found a real person and is ready for mass production in favor of videoconferencing. According to the source, currently in the workshops of Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant (KnAAZ) in various stages of readiness are four T-50. The machine under the number 9 will join the flight test complex in September. The next two, 10th and 11th, are on the stocks: in the first docked fuselage center section from the second collected. Until the end, both will take to the stage of flight tests. In the fall of the KLA is ready to sign a contract with the Ministry of Defence for the supply of the installation of fighter games. Deliveries of machines, according to the commander of VKS Viktor Bondarev, due to begin in 2017. Mounting the party – is no less than 12 cars, that is, one squadron, – says head of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), Ruslan Pukhov. – The number does not include fighter jets, test phase is now taking place. That is, in 2017 in the interests of videoconferencing will be built and delivered a completely new, meet the requirements of technical specifications fighting machines, who will pass the stage of military trials, after which it will be possible to talk about the expansion of purchases. However, as the expert said, glad that the T-50 will be a massive fighter, it is not worth it. PAK FA is positioned as the main rival to the US F-22 Raptor. The cost of the program creating a Raptor is estimated at $ 74 billion per aircraft cost -.. US $ 146 million bought 187 of these aircraft, and then shut down the program in general. Our T-50 program and its development of much cheaper, but the Deputy Minister of Defence for Armaments Yuri Borisov has said that the military can buy a smaller number of fifth generation fighter aircraft than planned in the state program of armaments to 2020. Military contracts is 12 pieces and after their commissioning will determine how many aircraft of this type will be able to afford. – Everything new is very expensive, and it is necessary to understand that the first machines will be very far from the common notion that with the advent of videoconferencing will have some sverhvozmozhnosti – says Pukhov. – The process of fine-tuning the aircraft even after adopting take years. Suffice it to recall that between the prototype of the Su-27 – T-10, appeared in 1977 – and the final product has been so many changes in design and on-board fighter equipment that only the last modification – Su-35S, adopting two years ago – It can be considered final. A similar fate seems to be waiting and T-50. Although, if only because of the fifth-generation engines, known today as the “Type 30”, or the engines of the second stage, in the development stage. Series T-50 will go into service with the motors 117C, the same, which are on the Su-35. Though they provide the necessary total thrust sufficient to achieve supersonic cruising speed, but does not meet the requirements of the fifth generation of the ratio of weight and traction as well as fuel consumption. Technical complexity of the debugging engine requires a very long bench and flight tests, which will affect the overall timing of the development of the T-50. According to various estimates, the power plants of the second stage of the Russian fighters T-50 will receive only the years 2025-2027. Actually, only then we can say that the T-50 became a true fifth-generation aircraft. – I think that today it is necessary to go ahead of the curve, not only by developing the T-50 as part of FGFA program (export name of the PAK FA – Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) with our strategic partner in the field of military-technical cooperation – India, but also offering its Algeria and Vietnam, – said Pukhov. – Both countries are independent of the military-technical policy, and have their own funds to buy modern weapons. Through an alliance with them, you can “cheapen” the creation of the T-50, making it a massive fighter.

http://idrw.org/t-50-ready-serial-production/


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## Local_Legend

*RUSSIA'S NEW PAK-FA STEALTH FIGHTER MIGHT HAVE A FATAL FLAW (OR TWO)*




United Aircraft Corporation is gearing up to start serial production of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fifth-generation stealth fighter according to Russian media reports. The eighth prototype T-50—which is nearly compliant with Moscow’s requirements for a next-generation fighter—is set to make its first flight on June 20.
“Unlike the previous aircraft, the eighth airframe is fully equipped with the equipment and systems prescribed in the specifications to create a prospective frontline aviation system,” a defense industry source told the Russian-language daily Izvestia. “With the advent of the new fighter, it can be said that the T-50 has reached a stage where it’s combat capable and ready for mass production and for use by the Russian Aerospace Forces.”
A total of four additional T-50 aircraft are in various stages of final assembly at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association plant in the Russian Far East. A ninth aircraft is set to joint the T-50 flight test program in September. But while flight-testing is not yet complete, UAC expects to sign a contract with the Russian Aerospace Forces to begin serial production of the T-50 in the fall of this year, according to Izvestia’s source. Deliveries of the new stealth fighter are set to begin in 2017.
The Russian Defense Ministry is expected to make an initial purchase of only a dozen operational T-50 aircraft. The Russian Aerospace Forces are expected to use those initial twelve production jets for operational testing before Moscow commits to buying more of the expensive new stealth fighters. Indeed, according to Russian sources, there is a lively debate within the Russian military as to whether or not stealth aircraft like the T-50 are worth the money. That debate—in addition to Moscow’s economic woes—is among the several reasons the Vozdushno-Kosmicheskiye Silyis taking a wait-and-see approach towards the new jet.
The other major concern for the Russian Aerospace Forces is the aircraft’s propulsion system. Initially, the T-50 will go into limited service powered by a pair of Saturn Izdeliye 117—also known as the AL-41F1—afterburning turbofans capable of producing 31,967lb (142kN) of thrust. The AL-41F1 is an extensively modernized version of the AL-31FP—found on older Su-27 and Su-30 Flanker variants—that was developed for the latest Su-35S Flanker-E.
While the AL-41F1 is a suitable motor for the new Flanker-E, it has proven to be less than satisfactory for use onboard a fifth-generation fighter. According to Russian sources, though the AL-41F1 provides enough thrust for sustained supersonic cruise capability, it does not meet the Russian Aerospace Forces requirements for thrust-to-weight ratio or fuel efficiency.
However, the Russians had only intended to use the AL-41F1 as an interim engine. Saturn is currently developing a 40,000lbs-class engine called the Izdeliye 30, which is intended to be the definitive powerplant for the new Russian fighter. However, Russia faces a challenging road ahead with developing the Izdeliye 30. Indeed, Izvestia reports that the T-50 will only receive the new engine between 2025 and 2027. Much of the problem stems from Russia’s post-Soviet malaise in the 1990s when technology development effectively ground to a halt as funding all but evaporated.
However, engine development is by far the most complex and technically challenging aspect of developing a new combat aircraft. That’s a lesson the United States learned during the development of the Grumman F-14 Tomcat and McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15 Eagle during the 1970s. To remedy the problem, the Pentagon started development work on the F119 and its General Electric YF120 competitor years before embarking on the development of the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.
But as recent experience has shown, even relatively mature engine designs can encounter teething problems when being adapted for a different application. One example of that was when the Pratt & Whitney F135—which was derived from the F-22’s nearly flawless F119—encountered problems after being modified for use on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The F135 had issues with afterburner screech and turbine blades rubbing against the casing—resulting in the loss of one aircraft.
Because engine development is so difficult, both the Air Force and Navy have embarked on developing advanced adaptive-cycle engine technologies well ahead of either service’s combat aircraft program had entered into even an analysis of alternatives phase. Both the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Navy are starting preliminary work on next-generation fighters with thePenetrating Counterair program and the Next Generation Air Dominance program, respectively.
However, the Pentagon is well aware that propulsion is will be the most challenging and expensive aspect of any new aircraft program. Indeed, the Air Force might borrow from the Russian playbook and use an interim engine on its new fighter when the time comes. “The engine is a long pole if everything must be new, but we can always build something with an existing engine,” said one Air Force official familiar with the service’s next-generation combat aircraft efforts. “Mission systems and interconnectivity are the most critical aspect of building capability in the future.”

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/06/russias-new-pak-fa-stealth-fighter.html


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## #hydra#

Local_Legend said:


> *RUSSIA'S NEW PAK-FA STEALTH FIGHTER MIGHT HAVE A FATAL FLAW (OR TWO)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Aircraft Corporation is gearing up to start serial production of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fifth-generation stealth fighter according to Russian media reports. The eighth prototype T-50—which is nearly compliant with Moscow’s requirements for a next-generation fighter—is set to make its first flight on June 20.
> “Unlike the previous aircraft, the eighth airframe is fully equipped with the equipment and systems prescribed in the specifications to create a prospective frontline aviation system,” a defense industry source told the Russian-language daily Izvestia. “With the advent of the new fighter, it can be said that the T-50 has reached a stage where it’s combat capable and ready for mass production and for use by the Russian Aerospace Forces.”
> A total of four additional T-50 aircraft are in various stages of final assembly at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association plant in the Russian Far East. A ninth aircraft is set to joint the T-50 flight test program in September. But while flight-testing is not yet complete, UAC expects to sign a contract with the Russian Aerospace Forces to begin serial production of the T-50 in the fall of this year, according to Izvestia’s source. Deliveries of the new stealth fighter are set to begin in 2017.
> The Russian Defense Ministry is expected to make an initial purchase of only a dozen operational T-50 aircraft. The Russian Aerospace Forces are expected to use those initial twelve production jets for operational testing before Moscow commits to buying more of the expensive new stealth fighters. Indeed, according to Russian sources, there is a lively debate within the Russian military as to whether or not stealth aircraft like the T-50 are worth the money. That debate—in addition to Moscow’s economic woes—is among the several reasons the Vozdushno-Kosmicheskiye Silyis taking a wait-and-see approach towards the new jet.
> The other major concern for the Russian Aerospace Forces is the aircraft’s propulsion system. Initially, the T-50 will go into limited service powered by a pair of Saturn Izdeliye 117—also known as the AL-41F1—afterburning turbofans capable of producing 31,967lb (142kN) of thrust. The AL-41F1 is an extensively modernized version of the AL-31FP—found on older Su-27 and Su-30 Flanker variants—that was developed for the latest Su-35S Flanker-E.
> While the AL-41F1 is a suitable motor for the new Flanker-E, it has proven to be less than satisfactory for use onboard a fifth-generation fighter. According to Russian sources, though the AL-41F1 provides enough thrust for sustained supersonic cruise capability, it does not meet the Russian Aerospace Forces requirements for thrust-to-weight ratio or fuel efficiency.
> However, the Russians had only intended to use the AL-41F1 as an interim engine. Saturn is currently developing a 40,000lbs-class engine called the Izdeliye 30, which is intended to be the definitive powerplant for the new Russian fighter. However, Russia faces a challenging road ahead with developing the Izdeliye 30. Indeed, Izvestia reports that the T-50 will only receive the new engine between 2025 and 2027. Much of the problem stems from Russia’s post-Soviet malaise in the 1990s when technology development effectively ground to a halt as funding all but evaporated.
> However, engine development is by far the most complex and technically challenging aspect of developing a new combat aircraft. That’s a lesson the United States learned during the development of the Grumman F-14 Tomcat and McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15 Eagle during the 1970s. To remedy the problem, the Pentagon started development work on the F119 and its General Electric YF120 competitor years before embarking on the development of the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.
> But as recent experience has shown, even relatively mature engine designs can encounter teething problems when being adapted for a different application. One example of that was when the Pratt & Whitney F135—which was derived from the F-22’s nearly flawless F119—encountered problems after being modified for use on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The F135 had issues with afterburner screech and turbine blades rubbing against the casing—resulting in the loss of one aircraft.
> Because engine development is so difficult, both the Air Force and Navy have embarked on developing advanced adaptive-cycle engine technologies well ahead of either service’s combat aircraft program had entered into even an analysis of alternatives phase. Both the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Navy are starting preliminary work on next-generation fighters with thePenetrating Counterair program and the Next Generation Air Dominance program, respectively.
> However, the Pentagon is well aware that propulsion is will be the most challenging and expensive aspect of any new aircraft program. Indeed, the Air Force might borrow from the Russian playbook and use an interim engine on its new fighter when the time comes. “The engine is a long pole if everything must be new, but we can always build something with an existing engine,” said one Air Force official familiar with the service’s next-generation combat aircraft efforts. “Mission systems and interconnectivity are the most critical aspect of building capability in the future.”
> 
> http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/06/russias-new-pak-fa-stealth-fighter.html


Means we too start work on our new engine for amca now itself.


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## arjun05

Pak fa to enter service in 2017: russian media

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## Perpendicular

The refining of the plane after its service entry will take years. Suffice it to say that there have been so many design and avionics modifications between the Su-27’s (NATO reporting name: Flanker) T-10 prototype made in 1977 and the final version that only the latest variant, the Su-35S (Flanker-E) included into the inventory a year before last, may be regarded as the final one. In all probability, the T-50 is facing the same future.


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## topgun047

Must watch...funny video

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## kali

What is the role of HAL in this program and how much % of designing share of HAL?


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## Agent_47



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## Local_Legend

*Sixth-generation fighter elements tested on PAK FA aircraft*

Separate elements of Russia’s sixth-generation fighter are already being tested on fifth-generation - Sukhoi PAK FA fighters (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation), Vladimir Mikheyev, advisor to the First Deputy Director General of Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies (KRET, a subsidiary of Rostec State Corporation) told TASS in an interview on July 11.

Back in early March reports stated that work on the sixth-generation fighter aircraft had begun, with the fighter’s manned and unmanned versions under development. The fighter prototype is expected to perform its maiden flight prior to 2025. That said, KRET is currently working on electronic warfare (EW) systems for the new warplane. Meanwhile, Russia is testing the fifth-generation fighter PAK FA (also known as T-50) that had carried out its maiden flight in 2010. State tests for the T-50 are scheduled to be completed in 2016, and in 2017, followed by mass deliveries of these fighters to the army.

"Standalone solutions that will be applied in the sixth-generation fighter are now being tested on the fifth-generation jet as well as on the ground-based equipment. Separate elements of the flight and navigation system have already been installed on PAK FA", Mikheyev said.

According to him, the sixth-generation fighters will be fitted with a unified electronic warfare system, which will serve as a radar, an electronic warfare system, a data transmission system and as communications equipment. Additionally, it will function as a navigation system and as an IFF transponder.

"The PAK FA radar station should operate both as a locator and reconnaissance system, and the electronic warfare system for its part should engage in radio detection and location. That is, integration and redistribution of functions on the PAK FA is already happening," the KRET representative said.

According to him, the use of integrated avionics is tested on many aircraft. As an example, he cited the U.S. fifth-generation fighter, the F-35.

The PAK FA aircraft is a stealthy, single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter, and will be the first operational aircraft in Russian service to use stealth technology. It is a multipurpose fighter designed for the air superiority and attack roles. The fighter is planned to have super-cruise, stealth, super-maneuverability and advanced avionics to overcome the prior generation of fighter aircraft as well as ground and maritime defenses. The PAK FA is intended to be the successor to the MiG-29 and Su-27 in the Russian Air Force and serve as the basis for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft being co-developed by Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian Air Force.

http://rbth.com/news/2016/07/11/sixth-generation-fighter-elements-tested-on-pak-fa-aircraft_610697

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## Ali Zadi

Sensor fusion is just part of it all as far as I can understand F35 also incorporates quite a bit of sensor fusion plus ability for drone control from the F35, if I am not wrong.


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## Deino

kali said:


> What is the role of HAL in this program and how much % of designing share of HAL?




Is this a real question ??

Simple answer: *NOTHING !
*
... all what India can hope for is besides paying the development and as such keeping the T50 alive is to get a fine fighter and maybe some TOT, but development work for the T50 is done and HAL was not involved not even in the smallest part and since a redesign would be prohibitive expensive the FGFA will be at best some sort of T50I.

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## randomradio

Deino said:


> Is this a real question ??
> 
> Simple answer: *NOTHING !
> *
> ... all what India can hope for is besides paying the development and as such keeping the T50 alive is to get a fine fighter and maybe some TOT, but development work for the T50 is done and HAL was not involved not even in the smallest part and since a redesign would be prohibitive expensive the FGFA will be at best some sort of T50I.



Most of the software on the jet will be rewritten for FGFA. That's our source code. The cockpit has already been designed by HAL and given to the Russians long ago.

The engine and a lot of other components are yet to be built and tested. HAL's part in the program lies is the Stage 2 aspect of the PAK FA's development. The avionics for Stage 2 are yet to be developed. KRET will develop the first radar by 2018 and the Indian radar will be derived from that, and that will take 3 or 4 more years.

The T-50 has been made as an interim design so the Russians can begin replacing their Su-27s, and it looks like they won't be doing that either. There are three more variants of the PAK FA/FGFA apart from the T-50.

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## Deino

randomradio said:


> Most of the software on the jet will be rewritten for FGFA. That's our source code. The cockpit has already been designed by HAL and given to the Russians long ago.
> 
> The engine and a lot of other components are yet to be built and tested. HAL's part in the program lies is the Stage 2 aspect of the PAK FA's development. The avionics for Stage 2 are yet to be developed. KRET will develop the first radar by 2018 and the Indian radar will be derived from that, and that will take 3 or 4 more years.
> 
> The T-50 has been made as an interim design so the Russians can begin replacing their Su-27s, and it looks like they won't be doing that either. There are three more variants of the PAK FA/FGFA apart from the T-50.




Interesting ... any info on what "are [these] three more variants of the PAK FA/FGFA apart from the T-50" ?

Besides that I agree with You that this is the PLAN ... but considering PLANS on Russian and even more Indian programs lately I'm very much sceptical and that is not meant as country-bashing but only based on observations to other programs.


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## randomradio

Deino said:


> Interesting ... any info on what "are [these] three more variants of the PAK FA/FGFA apart from the T-50" ?



Stage 1: Current version with 117 engine. Production was cut down.
Stage 2: Upcoming version with new avionics and Type 30 engine.
FGFA: Indian version of Stage 2. It will be modified from Stage 2 and then MKIzed.
FGFA: Two seat.

This is not counting a N-PAK FA. Followed by the modernized PAK FA which will come up in 2028.

An example of upcoming avionics.
http://kret.com/en/news/10260/



> Besides that I agree with You that this is the PLAN ... but considering PLANS on Russian and even more Indian programs lately I'm very much sceptical and that is not meant as country-bashing but only based on observations to other programs.



The plans have not changed much since the beginning, at least after 2010. The FGFA contract negotiations were on hold for two years to allow the progress of the T-50's development before committing. The primary reason was India had to wait for technologies for the Stage 2 program to mature. The Stage 1 program is both unimportant and irrelevant to the FGFA, although India did finally decide to use the T-50 airframe instead of a new design. So only the airframe will be the same.

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## R!CK

Deino said:


> Interesting ... any info on what "are [these] three more variants of the PAK FA/FGFA apart from the T-50" ?
> 
> Besides that I agree with You that this is the PLAN ... but considering PLANS on Russian and even more Indian programs lately I'm very much sceptical and that is not meant as country-bashing but only based on observations to other programs.



I'd have agreed with you if we had this conversation before Su-30 MKI

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## Perpendicular

Radio-Electronic Technologies Concern - KRET, a subsidiary of the Rostec state corporation- is developing the Okhotnik (Hunter) video data processing system to increase the target detection range of the Sukhoi *PAK FA (T-50) fifth-generation multirole fighter jet* by 50-100%, according to the KRET`s press department.


"_Okhotnik is planned to be integrated with the target sight optoelectronic systems of the fixed-wing/rotor-wing aircraft and other sophisticated military equipment. The system is intended for the electronic stabilization of the images and the detection/tracking of targets in automatic mode. Okhotnik increases the range of target acquisition in harsh environment by 50-100%,_" a KRET`s spokesperson said.

According to him, the Concern has developed over 15 variants of the Okhotnik system intended for Mi-28N 'Night Hunter' (NATO reporting name: Havoc-B), Mi-8/17 (Hip/Hip-H), and Ka-52 (Hokum-B) rotor-wing aircraft, Sukhoi multirole fighter jets, naval guns, anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) systems, and self-propelled anti-aircraft gun-missile systems (SPAAGM). 

"_The KRET Concern is developing video data processing hardware intended for an optoelectronic station of the PAK FA fifth-generation fighter,_" the official emphasized.

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## Hephaestus

*According to the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer, flight tests of Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighter aircraft are at the final stage.*

Flight tests of Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighter aircraft are at the final stage, with more than 700 test flights carried out, the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer said in an annual report on Monday.

"Prospective aviation complex of fifth generation (PAK FA) is at the final stage of its tests… More than 700 flights have been conducted. which has allowed to work out and prove sustainable characteristics of the combat aviation complex," the report obtained by RIA Novosti said.

*Russia's new state-of-the-art fighter is poised and ready to be mass produced, according to the Russian newspaper Izvestia.*

Russia's fifth generation T-50 fighter jet, also known as the Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA), is ready for serial production, the Russian newspaper Izvestia reported.
The newspaper quoted a source in Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) as saying that UAC is preparing a preliminary report on making the initial batch of a dozen T-50 fighters for the Russian Aerospace Forces.

The eighth such plane is due to make its maiden flight in the Russian Far Eastern city of Komsomolsk-on-Amur on June 20, the source said, adding that the jet fully meets the military's combat capability requirements for fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

_"It is safe to say that with this eight plane already produced, the T-50 can now been seen as a combat unit and that it is ready for mass production in the interests of the Russian Aerospace Forces," the source said._

Earlier, Russian Aerospace Forces commander Viktor Bondarev said that the supplies of the T-50s will start in 2

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## 1000VA



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## Hephaestus

1000VA said:


> View attachment 323382


Clean! Amazing!


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## 1000VA

Russia to test-fly PAK FA fighter powered with Phase II engine in late 2017

The first flight of the Russian fifth-generation fighter (Russian acronym – PAK FA) powered by the Phase II engine is slated for late 2017, Yevgeny Marchukov, general designer/director, Lyulka Design Bureau (an affiliate of the Ufa Engine Production Association, UMPO), told TASS on Thursday, March 10, 2016.

“If all goes to plan, the Phase II engine’s fight flight on the flying testbed will take place late in 2017, with a T-50 (PAKFA) prototype to act as flying testbed,” the general designer said.

“One of the flying testbed’s engine nacelles will house a Phase I engine and the other the advanced one,” he added.

According to Marchukov, the Phase II engine is in the prototype manufacture, demonstrator assembly and core engine test stages. The first core engine has been tested, with good enough results produced. The second core engine’s assembly is nearing the end. “We will test the engine demonstrator this summer,” Marchukov said.

The general designer emphasized: “The Phase II engine designed for the PAK FA is a Generation 5+ design, even a Generation 5++ one.” The engine is 15-20% superior to the previous ones in terms of specific characteristics.

“The engine’s characteristics have been refined through a sharp improvement in the operating cycle parameters, efficiency of units and introduction of advanced technologies and materials in the first place. It features higher thrust and a sizeable reduction in specific fuel consumption in virtually all operating modes, i.e. not only in the cruising range mode, but in the acceleration and afterburning modes as well – the modes the aircraft is normally flown in. This implies a life cycle cost reduction,” the general designer explained. “In addition, a hefty specific weight reduction through advanced technologies and materials has been planned.”

According to Marchukov, “there have been difficulties in the development of the advanced engine, because not all of the materials have been certificated, and we may not use them for now. Therefore, the early prototypes will be somewhat different to the ones used in the official trials. We are working on the powerplant in cooperation with the plane’s designers, including the work on the air intake, because it is an all-new engine designed to remain in service for 30 years at the least.”

“We plan to use the advanced engine’s core engine to derive a whole spectrum of advanced powerplants for aviation and power generation applications,” the general designer concluded.

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## PARIKRAMA

A nice video
Link: 




Credit to the original poster

A quick glance of what it covers:-
















..

*BVR Combat
RADAR Comparison*


























More in coming posts

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582
































*Side Note:*

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583

*Other Sensors*

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584
















*STEALTH*

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585
*
Electronic Warfare*































*BVR 
Weaponry









*

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586, #2587
















*WVR COMBAT*

WVR weapons

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586, #2587, #2588

*COUNTERMEASURES*


























*MANEUVERABILITY
















*

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586, #2587, #2588, #2589

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586, #2587, #2588, #2589, #2590

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586, #2587, #2588, #2589, #2590, #2591

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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from post #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586, #2587, #2588, #2589, #2590, #2591, #2592







Tagging all

Pls take your time and go through posts #2582, #2583, #2584, #2585, #2586, #2587, #2588, #2589, #2590, #2591, #2592

Its a good effort by a guy to compare the two. Of course in certain aspects even today F22 is vastly ahead but then considering new 5th Gen jets out there (Chinese, Russian and F35 itself), there are many parameters where new 5th Gen Jets are moving ahead in comparison specifics.

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @GURU DUTT @vostok @Icarus @Oscar @Manticore @others

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA 
Will the Russians stick to their original proposition of installing a S-Band Antenna at the rear ? Is it a requirement / necessity for IAF ? What are its advantages ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> Will the Russians stick to their original proposition of installing a S-Band Antenna at the rear ? Is it a requirement / necessity for IAF ? What are its advantages ?




I doubt we need that really. S band range is lower.. on top the combination of X and L wonderfully especially L band detection.. the longer wavelength does nt detect accurately but points to the direction of a possibility more appropriately when it scans in the area where a stealth VLO bogey may be present. It specially works wonderfully when it detects either link 16 or a combination of active passive sensors to pinpoint the bogey and launch a missile to take care of the rest with mid course update and terminal seeker to take the bogey down.and moment the bogey uses any active means to defend the bogey becomes even more easy to take down.

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## SR-91

@PARIKRAMA 

Thx for the post. Excellent comparison.

Looking forward to seeing the new 5+ generation PAKFA engine next year. It's lift/drag and speed/acceleration will have huge effect on its capabilities.

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## Hephaestus

@PARIKRAMA 

Thanks for tag.
Wonderful posts, Sir. Made for very enjoyable and informative reading. Thank you.

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## Ali Zadi

Thx for the tag

The start all and end of it all for the Americanos is BVR and be sure there is a black project in the US for higher everything BVR requirements. So if we take it at face value the stealth values for the Pak-Fa is a big crack in the armor, yea I understand the counter measures but lets say a Pak-Fa can counter X no of missiles but can be detected early on where as the F22 does not need to counter anything till it is detected.

Frankly the J20 in some aspects seems better in this front and keeping in mind the size of that plane its not a small feat. 

BVR is the future & planes that have human's as options.

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## Local_Legend

@PARIKRAMA ..

Thank you for the tag and very info-graphic post .

Sir , the radar is developed from N035 right ? So , it's performance almost doubled ? ( Both are having almost same T/R Modules , around 1500 ? )


Performance characteristics

"Air-to-Air" mode:

- detection range for targets with RCS=3m2 is 350 km

Scanning zone:
- in elevation: ± 60 deg.;
- in azimuth: ± 120 deg.
*
The number of detected and tracked targets is 30.*

*The number of simultaneously fired upon air targets is up to 8.*

"Air-to-Ground" mode:
- mapping in SAR (synthetic aperture radar) mode with 3 meter resolution;
- real beam mapping in DBS mode (Doppler beam sharpening);
- ground moving target selection;
- tracking of up to four ground targets;
- tracking of one ground target preserving air sector surveillance.








http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?op...:-q-q-35&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8

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## PARIKRAMA

Local_Legend said:


> @PARIKRAMA ..
> 
> Thank you for the tag and very info-graphic post .
> 
> Sir , the radar is developed from N035 right ? So , it's performance almost doubled ? ( Both are having almost same T/R Modules , around 1500 ? )
> 
> 
> Performance characteristics
> 
> "Air-to-Air" mode:
> 
> - detection range for targets with RCS=3m2 is 350 km
> 
> Scanning zone:
> - in elevation: ± 60 deg.;
> - in azimuth: ± 120 deg.
> *
> The number of detected and tracked targets is 30.*
> 
> *The number of simultaneously fired upon air targets is up to 8.*
> 
> "Air-to-Ground" mode:
> - mapping in SAR (synthetic aperture radar) mode with 3 meter resolution;
> - real beam mapping in DBS mode (Doppler beam sharpening);
> - ground moving target selection;
> - tracking of up to four ground targets;
> - tracking of one ground target preserving air sector surveillance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?op...:-q-q-35&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8



There is always a point mooted that N036 is a AESA variant of Irbis E (N035) .

This implies the upgradation to AESA and additional performance parameters are surely built into N036.

Even though T/R module is still limited to 1555 main nose radar there are 2 secondary ones in the side with 358 modules.

So as a system with X and L band it works wonderfully.

Russia had been doing tests with 10W - 15W GaAS modules in the past while also been working on GaN modules as well that could be rated between 15W - 30W. The focus had been on reducing size and heat of the T/R modules so they could possibly fit more than the proposed 1500 and increase the number of modules in the same size.

But the best part is power supplied is same as N035 case of 20Kw.

The combination of X and L and side radars were not there as a system in N035 thus we see such drastic increase in performance.

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## ptldM3



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## SR-91

ptldM3 said:


> View attachment 325177
> View attachment 325178
> View attachment 325179




Is that prototype # 6?

T-50 is truly a beautiful aircraft.

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## #hydra#

Waiting for RAM coated pakfa

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## ptldM3

SR-91 said:


> Is that prototype # 6?
> 
> T-50 is truly a beautiful aircraft.






I believe it's the T-50-6, not to be confused with T-50-6-2.


Another picture: it's obvious which model this is by bort number:









And actual video:

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## SR-91

ptldM3 said:


> I believe it's the T-50-6, not to be confused with T-50-6-2.
> 
> 
> Another picture: it's obvious which model this is by bort number:
> 
> 
> View attachment 325238
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And actual video:



What's the difference between T-50-6 and T-50-6-2?


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## ptldM3

SR-91 said:


> What's the difference between T-50-6 and T-50-6-2?






I could not say, people say that it will have extensive changes to the airframe but the same thing has been said about every prototype and so far the changes, at least physically from what we have seen have been minor.

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## SR-91

Russians looks like they are satisfied with overall design of T-50. Their designers and supercomputers did a great job.
@ptldM3

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## Foxbat Alok

One more

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## Śakra

ptldM3 said:


> View attachment 325177
> View attachment 325178
> View attachment 325179



Is that R2D2 looking thing in front of the cockpit going to be gone on the final version?


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## ptldM3

Śakra said:


> Is that R2D2 looking thing in front of the cockpit going to be gone on the final version?





That is the IRST/OLS, why would they remove it? Unless they wanted to save money there is no reason to remove it.

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## Śakra

ptldM3 said:


> That is the IRST/OLS, why would they remove it? Unless they wanted to save money there is no reason to remove it.



It looks like a pimple! 

On another note, why aren't jets painted sky blue? They would be invisible!


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## SR-91

Śakra said:


> Is that R2D2 looking thing in front of the cockpit going to be gone on the final version?




That's not R2D2,  ...........that's PAK-FA going thru puberty and it's breaking out with ACNE.

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## Śakra

SR-91 said:


> That's not R2D2,  ...........that's PAK-FA going thru puberty and it's breaking out with ACNE.



@ptldM3 







Original content. Plz gibb lieks.


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## monitor

* New Photos - T-50 PAK FA *

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## randomradio

ptldM3 said:


> I could not say, people say that it will have extensive changes to the airframe but the same thing has been said about every prototype and so far the changes, at least physically from what we have seen have been minor.



6-2 will come with engine cowlings at least.


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## Project 4202

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

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## PARIKRAMA

IHS Jane video based presentation

http://link.brightcove.com/services...1l40X7jvkVpwQB8cfxLBKDu4a&bctid=5066911826001

*Major slides*

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## randomradio

Only the Block 1 and 2 parts are right. Everything else is mostly wrong.

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

@PARIKRAMA why the Russians don't follow the J-20 model of, just producing it without worrying about the engine & over weight ? That way they can carry the required modification whenever the engine is ready.

Plus I think 1st prototype of FGFA should have been delivered by now, the project is just getting delayed further.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> @PARIKRAMA why the Russians don't follow the J-20 model of, just producing it without worrying about the engine & over weight ? That way they can carry the required modification whenever the engine is ready.
> 
> Plus I think 1st prototype of FGFA should have been delivered by now, the project is just getting delayed further.


We have not inked the contract and released funds so how we will get the prototype..On top even if we follow the J20 like similar path or say make Stage 2 without new engine and make Stage 3 with new engine, its gonna anyways add more time and cost for Stage 3 new engine validation. Its better we pick up the prototype having new engine than go forward.. Of course more than me IAF is qualified to talk on this and they have not shown keen interest in Stage 1 as of now..

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## Ali Zadi

The J20 route is not exactly the best way to go the Chinese use a different way of induction than most of the other people but validation and re-validation are important parts and you should not glide over it using this upgrading route instead of the normal stage route.

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## arjun25

PAK-FA T-50 To Get A New 5th Gen Engine, Production Will Start In 2018

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## Agent_47

Whats up with the vertical stabilizer ?


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## R!CK

Agent_47 said:


> Whats up with the vertical stabilizer ?



It is designed as an all moving pair of Vertical stabilizers which toe inwards to serve as airbrakes.

The picture could be representing a flight control check prior take-off which is standard for all civil and military aircraft.






Good Day!

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## [Bregs]

*India and Russia Reach Agreement Over 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft*

*New Delhi and Moscow purportedly have finally agreed to a work-share agreement for the co-production of a new warplane.

L1001025
By Franz-Stefan Gady
September 12, 2016

*
After repeated delays, India and Russia have agreed to a detailed work-sharing agreement for the joint production of design and production of a new fighter jet under the so-called joint Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, known in India as the Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF), according to Indian media reports.

“From a preliminary document that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared,” an unidentified Indian defense official told _The Economic Times_. A final contract is expected to be signed in early 2017.

The talks between Indian and Russian defense officials were allegedly accelerated ahead of an Indian-Russian summit to be held in Goa on October 15. As I reported in January, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi failed to reach an agreement during a bilateral meeting in Moscow in December 2015.

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
The FGFA/PMF project has been hampered by repeated delays since the start of the project in 2007 and the signing of a preliminary $295 million design contract in 2010. In 2015, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar decided to make one last push toward reaching an agreement with Russia. I explained:

_Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype (the Russian prototype of the PMF), the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth, and weapon-carrying capabilities._

Russia announced in late 2015 that it would only induct a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter aircraft, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead. The original deal involved Russia procuring 250 and India 144 aircraft at a cost of around $30 billion by 2022. As a result, India threatened to abandon the project in its entirety. Russia in turn made a number of concessions including an offer to cut down its financial contribution from $6 to $ 3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and substantial technology transfers.

Despite the agreeing on a work-share plan, problems with the FGFA/PMF project nevertheless will remain (See: “Russia Tests Components of New 6th Generation Fighter Jet on 5th Generation War Plane”):

_Russia’s defense industry is still facing technical (as well as financial) hurdles including designing a new engine for the aircraft, given that PAK FA prototypes are currently using engines also installed on Sukhoi Su-35S 4++ generation multi-role fighter jets, calling into question whether the PAK FA can genuinely be classified as an 5th generation aircraft_

As part of the effort to salvage the defense deal, Moscow has also agreed to let Indian test pilots fly the PAK FA T-50 prototype currently undergoing flight trials in Russia. Hundreds of flight tests have taken place over the last months and the Russian Air Force expects the first aircraft to be inducted into its ranks in 2017. Nevertheless, many senior officers in the IAF remain skeptical about the aircraft’s affordability and capabilities.


*http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/indi...reement-over-5th-generation-fighter-aircraft/*

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## wiseone2

[Bregs] said:


> *India and Russia Reach Agreement Over 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft*
> 
> *New Delhi and Moscow purportedly have finally agreed to a work-share agreement for the co-production of a new warplane.*
> 
> *L1001025*
> *By Franz-Stefan Gady*
> *September 12, 2016*
> 
> 
> After repeated delays, India and Russia have agreed to a detailed work-sharing agreement for the joint production of design and production of a new fighter jet under the so-called joint Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, known in India as the Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF), according to Indian media reports.
> 
> “From a preliminary document that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared,” an unidentified Indian defense official told _The Economic Times_. A final contract is expected to be signed in early 2017.
> 
> The talks between Indian and Russian defense officials were allegedly accelerated ahead of an Indian-Russian summit to be held in Goa on October 15. As I reported in January, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi failed to reach an agreement during a bilateral meeting in Moscow in December 2015.
> 
> Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
> The FGFA/PMF project has been hampered by repeated delays since the start of the project in 2007 and the signing of a preliminary $295 million design contract in 2010. In 2015, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar decided to make one last push toward reaching an agreement with Russia. I explained:
> 
> _Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype (the Russian prototype of the PMF), the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth, and weapon-carrying capabilities._
> 
> Russia announced in late 2015 that it would only induct a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter aircraft, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead. The original deal involved Russia procuring 250 and India 144 aircraft at a cost of around $30 billion by 2022. As a result, India threatened to abandon the project in its entirety. Russia in turn made a number of concessions including an offer to cut down its financial contribution from $6 to $ 3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and substantial technology transfers.
> 
> Despite the agreeing on a work-share plan, problems with the FGFA/PMF project nevertheless will remain (See: “Russia Tests Components of New 6th Generation Fighter Jet on 5th Generation War Plane”):
> 
> _Russia’s defense industry is still facing technical (as well as financial) hurdles including designing a new engine for the aircraft, given that PAK FA prototypes are currently using engines also installed on Sukhoi Su-35S 4++ generation multi-role fighter jets, calling into question whether the PAK FA can genuinely be classified as an 5th generation aircraft_
> 
> As part of the effort to salvage the defense deal, Moscow has also agreed to let Indian test pilots fly the PAK FA T-50 prototype currently undergoing flight trials in Russia. Hundreds of flight tests have taken place over the last months and the Russian Air Force expects the first aircraft to be inducted into its ranks in 2017. Nevertheless, many senior officers in the IAF remain skeptical about the aircraft’s affordability and capabilities.
> 
> 
> *http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/indi...reement-over-5th-generation-fighter-aircraft/*



i am skeptical russians and chinese can build a 5th generation fighter


----------



## Armani

wiseone2 said:


> i am skeptical russians and chinese can build a 5th generation fighter



I am skeptical that you have higher brain functions.

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## Ali Zadi

wiseone2 said:


> i am skeptical russians and chinese can build a 5th generation fighter



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_Project_1.44

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## ashok321

*India and Russia Reach Agreement Over 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft*

*http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/indi...reement-over-5th-generation-fighter-aircraft/*

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## #hydra#

One thing I know that India desperately need an engine tech,to be precise the know how aka art of making/designung a working jet engine. And India is collaborating with Russian in developing fgfa. Then why the hell we are not clubbing with them in fgfa engine development,AFAIK it will be having beastly capable engine. I think it will be more logical than begging(most of the other Indians may not agree with me regarding this word ) for the tech from uncle Sam on a decades old engine like f404 .
@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar @kurup

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## Agent_47

#hydra# said:


> One thing I know that India desperately need an engine tech,to be precise the know how aka art of making/designung a working jet engine. And India is collaborating with Russian in developing fgfa. Then why the hell we are not clubbing with them in fgfa engine development,AFAIK it will be having beastly capable engine. I think it will be more logical than begging(most of the other Indians may not agree with me regarding this word ) for the tech from uncle Sam on a decades old engine like f404 .
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar @kurup


True, let HAL take part in the engine development. It will be invaluable experience to them.
Considering our $3.7 billion Investment why not some more for engine workshare?
Its still not late, production engine is 5+ years away.

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## R!CK

#hydra# said:


> One thing I know that India desperately need an engine tech,to be precise the know how aka art of making/designung a working jet engine. And India is collaborating with Russian in developing fgfa. Then why the hell we are not clubbing with them in fgfa engine development,AFAIK it will be having beastly capable engine. I think it will be more logical than begging(most of the other Indians may not agree with me regarding this word ) for the tech from uncle Sam on a decades old engine like f404 .
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar @kurup



I guess it's more to do with their lack of interest in involving us in engine R&D than our interest to collaborate with them for developing the engine. Russians helped us for many things over the past, however they never ever let us close to the engine tech. Not even the Chinese received any help from Russians for engines, and I guess that's not set to change in future too.

Good Day!

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## Prechko



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## Ali Zadi

R!CK said:


> I guess it's
> Good Day!



Xian WS-15 is heavily influenced by R-79V-300 and technical data was taken directly from Soyuz

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## The Eagle

#hydra# said:


> One thing I know that India desperately need an engine tech,to be precise the know how aka art of making/designung a working jet engine. And India is collaborating with Russian in developing fgfa. Then why the hell we are not clubbing with them in fgfa engine development,AFAIK it will be having beastly capable engine. I think it will be more logical than begging(most of the other Indians may not agree with me regarding this word ) for the tech from uncle Sam on a decades old engine like f404 .
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar @kurup



I just want to share my view on this and hopefully, my flags wouldn't force you (anyone) take it as offensive. 

Just calculate the time, money, manpower, dedication and devotion with respect to Russia achievements in this subject then, for the sake of science and to honour it, I feel atleast 75℅ of Russia's spending need to be spent by any country wanted such level achievements in Engine production. Or we can say that this tech deserves such respect being given by Russia and money alone is not the solution or tool for this so the day any nation/India spent all that or sufficiently, you will be seeing results. 

I am not denying that India cannot do that but a view point to look at it by this as well 

@PARIKRAMA

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## #hydra#

Prechko said:


>


Music is Antonio Vivaldi summer, my most favorite violin piece,but here it ruined by using electric guitar.

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## R!CK

Ali Zadi said:


> Xian WS-15 is heavily influenced by R-79V-300 and technical data was taken directly from Soyuz



And some say J-20/31 are heavily influenced from F-35. Hope you get my point. 

Good day!

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## monitor

*KURYER* ‏@*RSS_40* 
055 & 053 Jul 2016 via (c) V.Savitsky

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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> They have kept a lot of it secret. NPF Mikran set up production facilities 1-2 years ago. The new radar for the Mig-35 is also fully digital based on GaN. GaN doesn't have thermal issues.
> 
> Anyway-
> https://www.rt.com/news/t50-missile-advanced-guidance-643/
> 
> https://www.rt.com/news/321738-russian-stealth-pak-fa/
> 
> 
> PAK FA is ready for production with these technologies.
> 
> Otoh, Northrop recently won the contract to develop digital radars.
> https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html
> 
> Meaning, the F-22 and F-35 are still years away from these technologies.
> 
> Anyway, this is irrelevant to India because we have chosen optical radars, that's a step ahead. So no GaN for us, that will be obsolete too, in about 3-5 years. So this radar, when ready, won't just detect the F-22 and the F-35, but also detect a pimple on the pilot's face from hundreds of kilometres away.



We both know rt is not a reliable source. is there any patent related or western independent one?
If they are ready jump in to photonics why are they not marketing GAN tech aggressively ?


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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> We both know rt is not a reliable source. is there any patent related or western independent one?



The news is from KRET. It's on their website.



> If they are ready jump in to photonics why are they not marketing GAN tech aggressively ?



They are. But it's all directly through the right channels. The Russians are making these technologies for RuAF and IAF first. So open marketing will come much later, once export versions are made for other countries, particularly through the PAK FA and Flanker upgrades.

So the GaN will become the basis for the initial version of PAK FA. The photonics may come in a little later, after 2021.


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## #hydra#

#hydra# said:


> Music is Antonio Vivaldi summer, my most favorite violin piece,but here it ruined by using electric guitar.


@Prechko though I like classical violin version, I am keep on playing this video only to hear that music.

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## jha

Prechko said:


>



One noob question... Why do we need cannon in 5th Gen fighter? Doesnt this defeat whole purpose of stealth ?


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## randomradio

jha said:


> One noob question... Why do we need cannon in 5th Gen fighter? Doesnt this defeat whole purpose of stealth ?



Because missiles can fail, while cannons are very reliable.

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## Ali Zadi

randomradio said:


> Because missiles can fail, while cannons are very reliable.



The real reason is because missiles are few even more so in the 5th gen avatar.


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## gambit

jha said:


> One noob question... Why do we need cannon in 5th Gen fighter? *Doesnt this defeat whole purpose of stealth ?*


Depends on how the gun is designed into the aircraft. But basically -- no.

The gun is the weapon of last resort. Ideally, you want to shoot at your opponent from as far away as possible, hence the missile. But there will always be a time and situation where you are either too close for missiles or you are out of missiles. The US learned this the hard way with the gunless F-4.

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## Agent_47



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## Kinetic

Agent_47 said:


>



Nice.


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## eldamar

any atual latest news instead of the endless fanboy vids or artwork?


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## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> any atual latest news instead of the endless fanboy vids or artwork?



Fingers crossed for a FGFA signature next month.

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## Sahil.universal

Another beginners question: Wht kinda TOT are we gonna get with the FGFA deal?


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## newindiandefence

What kind of radar we get with Fgfa , photonic? Tot?

Next generation radar of kret ?

I think we should open a new thread for Fgfa

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## randomradio

newindiandefence said:


> What kind of radar we get with Fgfa , photonic? Tot?
> 
> Next generation radar of kret ?
> 
> I think we should open a new thread for Fgfa



Depends on the success of the photonics radar's development.


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## newindiandefence

If they can't make it good India will Denie . will they will get any unique tech they Denis ... In bitwin this fgfa will get it


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## Agent_47

LEVCONs

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## Agent_47

*Russian industry faces problems fielding AESA radars*

Russia's airborne radar industry has "almost no possibilities" for developing an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar in the near term, industry specialists from Poland, Ukraine, and other East European nations have told _IHS Jane's_ .

Russian military aircraft marketing representatives have repeatedly stated an AESA radar will be available when the PAK FA/T-50 next-generation fighter starts series production, yet Russia's radar industry faces several obstacles to achieving this.

Since the end of the Cold War, Russia's airborne radar sector has had two principal actors. Two design houses emerged from the radar and electronic systems conglomerate that had been responsible for aircraft onboard systems: NIIR Phazotron, located in central Moscow, and NIIP Tikhomirov, based just outside Moscow in Zhukovskiy.

http://www.janes.com/article/64236/russian-industry-faces-problems-fielding-aesa-radars

@randomradio


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## [Bregs]

Most of the out burst of janes against the Russians are often lies just like sputnik does for NATO


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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> *Russian industry faces problems fielding AESA radars*
> 
> Russia's airborne radar industry has "almost no possibilities" for developing an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar in the near term, industry specialists from Poland, Ukraine, and other East European nations have told _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> Russian military aircraft marketing representatives have repeatedly stated an AESA radar will be available when the PAK FA/T-50 next-generation fighter starts series production, yet Russia's radar industry faces several obstacles to achieving this.
> 
> Since the end of the Cold War, Russia's airborne radar sector has had two principal actors. Two design houses emerged from the radar and electronic systems conglomerate that had been responsible for aircraft onboard systems: NIIR Phazotron, located in central Moscow, and NIIP Tikhomirov, based just outside Moscow in Zhukovskiy.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/64236/russian-industry-faces-problems-fielding-aesa-radars
> 
> @randomradio



It's Jane's, they s*ck when it comes to Russian tech. And they are quoting 'enemy' nations as far as Russia is concerned.

The Mig-35 is already flying with a GaN AESA radar.

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> It's Jane's, they s*ck when it comes to Russian tech. And they are quoting 'enemy' nations as far as Russia is concerned.
> 
> The Mig-35 is already flying with a GaN AESA radar.



Russian GaN radar? I'd take that with a truck load of salt. Sorry just a personal observation. Can u please show me one AESA radar in service with Russian Air force? (Please don't quote PAKFA)

Good Day!

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> Russian GaN radar? I'd take that with a truck load of salt. Sorry just a personal observation. Can u please show me one AESA radar in service with Russian Air force? (Please don't quote PAKFA)
> 
> Good Day!



The PAK FA will be the first and only jet with AESA for a few years. Mig-35 will come in much later, after a production contract is signed this year, or early next year.


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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> The PAK FA will be the first and only jet with AESA for a few years. Mig-35 will come in much later, after a production contract is signed this year, or early next year.



so no working GaAs AESA but already mastered GaN tech? ok

Good Day!

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> so no working GaAs AESA but already mastered GaN tech? ok
> 
> Good Day!



That's irrelevant. You don't need a functioning GaAs radar before moving on to GaN. What you need is an ESA radar and the Russians have had many since the 1980s.


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## Agent_47

R!CK said:


> so no working GaAs AESA but already mastered GaN tech? ok
> 
> Good Day!


I have been saying the same. If they have been outclassed everyone, they would be running around and marketing those stuff. 

@randomradio Is there ground based GaN AESA?

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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> I have been saying the same. If they have been outclassed everyone, they would be running around and marketing those stuff.



They cannot market it yet. The first AESA being made is for PAK FA and that's not for export.

Once the Mig-35 starts production and deliveries, then they will be allowed to market it, along with Flanker upgrade packages.

So the export versions are yet to be developed.

Example, Brahmos has only recently started being marketed to other countries.



> @randomradio Is there ground based GaN AESA?



Yes, low band and very large aperture radars are being developed. But the first ones are for the S-500 and new nuclear powered destroyers.

The new A-100 AWACS will also have GaN.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

The situation is not as good as Russia will like it to be , but it's certainly not as bad as Jane's is trying to show.


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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> The situation is not as good as Russia will like it to be , but it's certainly not as bad as Jane's is trying to show.



If you get news on LCA from Pakistan, will you accept it?

Look at the countries mentioned, Poland, Ukraine. What next?

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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> Yes, low band and very large aperture radars are being developed. But the first ones are for the S-500 and new nuclear powered destroyers.
> 
> The new A-100 AWACS will also have GaN.


Yes, exactly 'under development'. That's all i'm saying . Don't expect super MKI upgrade without that.


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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> Yes, exactly 'under development'. That's all i'm saying . Don't expect super MKI upgrade without that.



Super MKI upgrade will come years later because it's linked to the FGFA program. If we want jets upgraded earlier, then we will have to go for the Irbis-E.



Agent_47 said:


> Yes, exactly 'under development'. That's all i'm saying . Don't expect super MKI upgrade without that.



The tech that Russia has been developing for PAK FA, the US started only in 2014.


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## The Eagle

randomradio said:


> If you get news on LCA from Pakistan, will you accept it?



Well the media is not credible on either side though any news from Pakistan which is appeared to be fake would have rebutted but not every news I think.


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## Echo_419

R!CK said:


> so no working GaAs AESA but already mastered GaN tech? ok
> 
> Good Day!



What about Homegrown UTTAM AESA Radar? Any chance of fitting that on FGFA?

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## R!CK

Echo_419 said:


> What about Homegrown UTTAM AESA Radar? Any chance of fitting that on FGFA?



LCA is the primary planned receiver of UTTAM. It all depends on what help France provides us really, FGFA is a long shot and I'd say it will be a long time before we get to an effective indigenous radar for that. I'd expect FGFA to sport the best radar available to us, either Russian or French. Keep our fingers crossed for AMCA maybe? 

Good Day!


----------



## Broccoli

randomradio said:


> If you get news on LCA from Pakistan, will you accept it?
> 
> Look at the countries mentioned, Poland, Ukraine. What next?



Ukraine was always important center for military research during the Soviet times and it's still importing equipment to Russia. Chinese have purchased lot from them.


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## randomradio

Broccoli said:


> Ukraine was always important center for military research during the Soviet times and it's still importing equipment to Russia. Chinese have purchased lot from them.



Not anymore. The two countries are in a state of war with each other.

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## Agent_47

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/782954424918417408

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/782954222161580033

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/782955334377742336

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/782955058719666177

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## SR-91

Good news.

Russians are in big trouble financially. Just imagine, if they can sell SU-35s and S-400 to China [I'm effing upset], what they are willing to give India. They certainly trust India more than China. [Did I mention, I'm effing pissed about 35s n 400s].

Anyways it's about time India gets what it will pay for. This FGFA deal is huge!!!! Expect Doval's ability to extract alot more critical tech than just in FGFA. Critical tech from FGFA, S-400 [[with upgraded and newer technology from S-500]], KA226 and Hopefully Yasen class submarine will put India miles ahead in next generation technology. Let's not forget tech from Rafale, jet engine optimization, nuclear tech and much more is coming from France. AESA and sensors technology from Isreal. This is HUGE!!!!

I'm hoping that they will adopt and start using this new technology as soon as possible.



randomradio said:


> Super MKI upgrade will come years later because it's linked to the FGFA program. If we want jets upgraded earlier, then we will have to go for the Irbis-E.
> 
> 
> 
> The tech that Russia has been developing for PAK FA, the US started only in 2014.




We need To Upgrade Super MKI in stages. Maybe in first batch, we can get AESA [we dont have to get it from Russia alone, we can also get it from Isreal] and newer missiles, next stage we can get newer avionics and then next generation software upgrades. This way IAF won't be burdened with big expenditures all at once and also it won't burden pilots. They can easily adapt to newer technology in stages.


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## #hydra#

SR-91 said:


> Good news.
> 
> Russians are in big trouble financially. Just imagine, if they can sell SU-35s and S-400 to China [I'm effing upset], what they are willing to give India. They certainly trust India more than China. [Did I mention, I'm effing pissed about 35s n 400s].
> 
> Anyways it's about time India gets what it will pay for. This FGFA deal is huge!!!! Expect Doval's ability to extract alot more critical tech than just in FGFA. Critical tech from FGFA, S-400 [[with upgraded and newer technology from S-500]], KA226 and Hopefully Yasen class submarine will put India miles ahead in next generation technology. Let's not forget tech from Rafale, jet engine optimization, nuclear tech and much more is coming from France. AESA and sensors technology from Isreal. This is HUGE!!!!
> 
> I'm hoping that they will adopt and start using this new technology as soon as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We need To Upgrade Super MKI in stages. Maybe in first batch, we can get AESA [we dont have to get it from Russia alone, we can also get it from Isreal] and newer missiles, next stage we can get newer avionics and then next generation software upgrades. This way IAF won't be burdened with big expenditures all at once and also it won't burden pilots. They can easily adapt to newer technology in stages.


Fixing a non Russian radar is almost impossible, since mki uses almost all Russian origin missiles. Its require radar's source code to integrate with missiles.


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## randomradio

SR-91 said:


> We need To Upgrade Super MKI in stages. Maybe in first batch, we can get AESA [we dont have to get it from Russia alone, we can also get it from Isreal] and newer missiles, next stage we can get newer avionics and then next generation software upgrades. This way IAF won't be burdened with big expenditures all at once and also it won't burden pilots. They can easily adapt to newer technology in stages.



Super Sukhoi is with Russia only. They have developed far more advanced tech than the Israelis have. The Russians have a bigger budget. And we can't have sensor fusion by sourcing critical systems from different countries.

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## ashok321

The negotiations for the Research and Development design contract with Russia for the Indian "perspective multi-role fighter", a variant of the Russian single-seat FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA has been resolved, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said.




*“The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) have been resolved,”* Raha was quoted as saying by Business Standard Wednesday.

“The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4-billion “R&D Contract” that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF,” he added. “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA,” Raha said.

The final R&D contract for the FGFA was on hold till now despite the two countries having first inked an inter-governmental agreement in 2007 and then following it up with a $295 million preliminary design contract in 2010.

Earlier reports had said New Delhi had proposed that instead of commencing the detailed project report(DPR), India would pay for three prototypes and transfer of technology (TOT) instead of US$6 billion for the DPR and joint production.

It is not clear if India wants to use the prototypes and TOT to set up its own production line in India.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17...Negotiations_Resolved__IAF_Chief#.V_dD2haKTIU

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## anant_s

Does R&D agreement includes co-development and/or ToT of Engine and Avionics as well or these are separate items?

@MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

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## Hephaestus

This should be merged with 
https://defence.pk/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa-fgfa-updates-news-discussions.118201/page-179#post-8768761

@waz Sir, please do the needful, Thanks!

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## newindiandefence

What is the chance of fgfa deal on putin's visit .

Shall we go for pakfa Russian variant?

I think we should involve a electro warfare variant like fa18g in R/D contract of 5 th gen fgfa.

Which have best jammer available with long rang , photonic radar , extra flight time, lesar and microwave ray type weapons.


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## migflug



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## Jamy

migflug said:


>


Wow! cant take off my eyes. Chances are high even for Rafaleons to become jealous.

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

Jamy said:


> Wow! cant take off my eyes. Chances are high even for Rafaleons to become jealous.


This bird is a class apart, the Rafaleons will soon be obsessed with this bird.

Just wait for this years Modi-Putin meet.

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## SR-91

newindiandefence said:


> What is the chance of fgfa deal on putin's visit .
> 
> Shall we go for pakfa Russian variant?
> 
> I think we should involve a electro warfare variant like fa18g in R/D contract of 5 th gen fgfa.
> 
> Which have best jammer available with long rang , photonic radar , extra flight time, lesar and microwave ray type weapons.




FGFA deal will be signed, along with other deals, when Putin arrives. Deal will include 3 prototypes.


----------



## [Bregs]

*Russia's Newest Advanced Stealth Fighter. All about Sukhoi T-50. Documentary*
*




*

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## zambino

Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> This bird is a class apart, the Rafaleons will soon be obsessed with this bird.
> 
> Just wait for this years Modi-Putin meet.


Yes I am already jealous


----------



## [Bregs]

Hope to sign FGFA deal with India by year-end: Russia 







BENAULIM (GOA): With military deals worth about Rs 60,000 crore signed and sealed with India here, Russia is hopeful that another big ticket agreement on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft will be inked by year-end. 

"The agreement had been completed on our end, we are ready to sign it. It is now down to the Indian side. 

"There are some formalities to figure out, but I think it will be signed by the end of this year," Sergei Chemezov, CEO of Rostec State Corporation a Russian umbrella organisation of 700 hi-tech civilian and military firms, said here. 

After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia had in February revived talks on the much delayed FGFA project after a clearance from Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. 

Since then, a lot of issues related to work share, IPR and technology transfer among others have been sorted out between the two sides along with the monetary commitments. 


Under the new offer, India will have to pay about $3.7 billion, instead of $ 6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of the fighters, defence sources have said. 

In 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter, called in India as Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF). 

"The FGFA project will produce a state of the art fighter jet, and it will be the result of the work on Russia's most modern technology done by both Russian and Indian engineers and constructors," Chemezov said. 

"As a Fifth Generation, it means fifth generation speed, ballistics and military equipment, avionics and stealth capabilities among other qualities," he said. 

"It shall be on a par with the capabilities of Russia's PAK-FA T-50 aircraft, a Fifth-Generation fighter but as it will be designed in the next few years, it is likely to exceed it in some specifics. 

"Our technology is always developing," the Russia's top defence industry official said. 

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

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## Agent_47



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## Avyator

How many Pak Fa's will we be going for ultimately?

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## SR-91

Avyator said:


> How many Pak Fa's will we be going for ultimately?




250


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## Avyator

SR-91 said:


> 250



I assume 200 will be customized FGFA and 50 or so will be off the line from Russia?


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## Agent_47

_“This is a 5th generation aircraft that will be created in cooperation with the Indian company. It will be slightly similar to the FGFA, but will still be an independent, new and advanced aircraft. We have almost finished all negotiations and are ready to sign; only formalities remain. I hope this contract will be signed before the end of the year", he said._
_
http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2016/10/18/7193/?h_

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Prechko

9th prototype














https://defence.pk/threads/russian-air-force-photos-videos-discussion.343246/page-38#post-8852585

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## TimePass

Prechko said:


> 9th prototype
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/russian-air-force-photos-videos-discussion.343246/page-38#post-8852585



Where is the TAIL FINS ?  

Is it what I think it is ............ ????


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## Gessler

TimePass said:


> Where is the TAIL FINS ?
> 
> Is it what I think it is ............ ????



Calm down. They just aren't fitted yet.

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## SR-91

TimePass said:


> Where is the TAIL FINS ?
> 
> Is it what I think it is ............ ????




Haven't finish the jet, it is still under construction. 

If that's a refueling probe, they gotta do much better than this.

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## abc123xyx

in place spending 3.7b$ on fgfa develpoment , it would be better to upgrade the mki .
let the russian develope the fgfa of their own.

after a dacade you can ask them to produce it under mii.


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## ptldM3

SR-91 said:


> Haven't finish the jet, it is still under construction.
> 
> If that's a refueling probe, they gotta do much better than this.




Yes, it's obviously a retractable refueling probe. What is it that they need to do better?


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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

Avyator said:


> How many Pak Fa's will we be going for ultimately?


The numbers keeps changing, we will have to wait for the cost of producing them in large numbers. Lets wait for first part of 2017 for the details.

Lot depends on the service life of the engine as well, Russians are not good at designing a reliable jet engines.


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## dadeechi

*Need more time on 5th-gen fighter jet, India tells Russia*


*Ajay Banerjee*

*Tribune News Service*

*New Delhi, October 31*

In the latest round of India-Russia military talks, New Delhi has told Moscow that it will need more time to examine the proposal to jointly develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).


The FGFA, which is under development, is very much a future requirement for the Indian Air Force (IAF) upgrade programme, the Russian side was conveyed last week at a meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his Russian counterpart General Sergey Shoigu in New Delhi.


“We have asked for greater details with regards to the work India will be doing in manufacturing the plane and also technology transfer,” a top source in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said. India and Russia have been working to conclude a pending agreement to co-develop the FGFA.


New Delhi has told Moscow that it wants a new engine and the plane must have super cruise ability, a 360-degree radar ability, added stealth features among 40-odd other India-specific modifications over the existing prototype. A plane called the ‘T-50’ built by the Russians under the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme as FGFA is already being tested as prototype in Russia.


The two countries have to sign a research and development (R&D) contract for the FGFA, but before that the “wrinkles have to be ironed out”. The signing of a R&D contract has been pending since June 2013 when the preliminary design contract (PDC), which detailed out the fighter’s configuration, was completed. The PDC cost $295 million (Rs 1,500 crore approximately).


The IAF has said AL-41F1 engines being used on the existing T-50 were just upgraded versions of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31FP engines and it would need a new engine. Also, the MoD wants that the R&D contract should have an adequate share of work done in India, thus allowing Indian engineers to learn the art of designing and making a plane. The R&D contract is estimated to be for $4 billion (around Rs 26,000 crore). The R&D process and final development of the plane is expected to be spread across seven years.


An aircraft such as the FGFA would be ideal for missions deep into the enemy territory. The IAF is now operating at its lowest combat strength in more than a decade. It is down to 33 squadrons (some 16-18 planes in each) as against a mandated 42 squadrons needed for simultaneous and collusive two-front war scenario with Pakistan and China.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...en-fighter-jet-india-tells-russia/317186.html

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/need-mor...-jet-india-tells-russia.458939/#ixzz4OiQm2Mx1

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## UniverseWatcher

Т-50-5Р

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## vostok



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## Ali Zadi

When levcons are in a down position doesn't it hamper air intake for the engines? Can it lead to a stalling event?


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## gambit

Ali Zadi said:


> When levcons are in a down position doesn't it hamper air intake for the engines? Can it lead to a stalling event?


Not likely.

Take a close look at the pic in post 2702.

https://defence.pk/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa-fgfa-updates-news-discussions.118201/page-181#post-8886574

The levcons and the wing leading edge (LE) flaps have the same degree of displacement. You can look at the levcons as LE flaps for the lifting fuselage design. Am no aerodynamicist, but from this perspective, I would guess that different degrees of displacement would generate different pressure and lifting forces from wing to fuselage that may not be conducive to stable flight.

I do not think the levcons' displacement, even at low speed, would be enough to disrupt intake air to the engines.

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## Perpendicular

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/799545983403257856

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
02-December, 2016 14:29 IST
*Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft *

An Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) has been signed in October 2007 between the Governments of India and the Russian Federation for joint development and production of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

The project is planned to be executed in two phases (i)Preliminary Design (PD) phase; and (ii)Detailed Design & Development Phase (Called R&D Phase). 

An amount of Rs.1609.41 crore has been sanctioned for PD phase. The PD phase contract was signed in December 2010. The work commenced in February 2011 and completed in June 2013. Negotiations for R&D contract between Indian side and Russians are on. 

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Baijayant Jay Panda in Lok Sabha today.


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## Project 4202

8th prototype of PAK FA
































http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/87722/

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## #hydra#

Project 4202 said:


> 8th prototype of PAK FA
> 
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> http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/87722/


Again same old exposed rear side...


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## Gessler

#hydra# said:


> Again same old exposed rear side...



Much of the nacelle has been covered up with composite panels compared to earlier prototypes. As of the nozzle, well we haven't even seen the Izdeliye-30 yet so no point worrying about that.

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## IblinI

Any photos of T50 opening its bomb bay?


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## Hindustani78

The serviceability rate of the Sukhoi Su-30 —* a twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft* in service with the Indian Air Force — has risen to 60 per cent, said Union Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar at the Vibrant Gujarat Global Summit on Thursday.

“When I became Raksha Mantri, I realised that the Su-30 (Sukois), the main fighter of Indian Air Force has a serviceability of 46 per cent. The helicopter fleet of the Indian Army and Air Force supplied through HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) had a serviceability of somewhere around 50 per cent. It is too low. The minimum international standards one expects is about 70-75 per cent. Sometimes you can even achieve 80 per cent-plus. Because making one fighter available more saves you the cost of buying a new fighter (aircraft). You have 300 fighters and only 150 or 140 are capable of taking on the task, I think you are not good. We decided to improve this,” Parrikar told to an audience that consisted of officials from the Ministry of Defence and firms operating in the defence sector.

The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI is built by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)





Sukhoi-30 overhauled at Nashik, highlights HAL's growing capability






HAL Manufactures Su-30MK


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## #hydra#

I lost hope on IAF,I think IAF won't choose pakkfa/fgfa. Pity our main adversary does have two different gen 5 fighter programme and is about to complete,and we have none.


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## vostok

PAK FA T-50 refueling in the air

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## ptldM3



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## ptldM3

Pak-fa footage

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## Robinhood Pandey



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## X_Killer

The second flying Phase II PAK FA Prototype, T-50-8-2 during flight testing in Zhukovsky.

The 8th prototype will be primarily used for testing the aerodynamics, airframe and flight characteristics taking over the T-50-1 and T-50-2 while weapon testing can be expected to be conducted on other aircraft.

The remaining Phase II air frames, -09, -10, -11 and -12 will then be followed by the T-50S-1

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## X_Killer




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## X_Killer

Russia Designs 'Friend-or-Foe' Stealth Recognition System for PAK FA Advanced fighter Jets





PAK-FA PRODUCTION : Russia’s SUKHOI T-50 fifthgeneration fighter jets will begin in 2017

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## victor07

Some fresh video: Busting myths about the sukhoi T50 PAK FA


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## RISING SUN

Panel on Indo-Russian fighter gets an extension
A high-power, five-member committee is closely examining the multi-billion dollar programme for the joint development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia. The committee will submit its report by May 15, a senior official told The Hindu. The committee was set up in January this year with a three-month term and was tasked with taking a detailed look at the cost and the extent of technology transfer that India would get. Its term has now been extended by a month, the official said. Among several issues, the committee will take a critical look at the actual technology transfer that India stands to gain thorough the deal. “We are assembling 272 Su-30s, which have only 56% indigenous content. In the FGFA, we should get full technology, not just the know-how but also the know-why so that we can do future upgrades and support here,” he said. No final contract In 2010 India and Russia signed a preliminary design agreement to jointly produce the FGFA for use by both countries, after which each invested $295 million for preliminary design which was completed in 2013. Since then, despite several rounds of discussions, the two countries have failed to reach an understanding over the final contract.
http://idrw.org/panel-on-indo-russian-fighter-gets-an-extension/


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## monitor

8Gbps Fiber-Optics, 4M lines of code of the New Integrated Modular Avionics of Combat Systems(IMA BK) push the #*Sukhoi* #*PAKFA* to a new level

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## ashok321

CLICK HERE

*After years of delay, India and Russia are likely to soon ink a "milestone" pact to finalise the detailed design for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and move ahead with the multi-billion dollar co- development project.*

*



*


“The contract for the detailed design would be signed soon and that will be a major milestone. It should be signed in the second half of the year,” a top official involved in the negotiations with Russia on the project said.

Asked whether India has linked the project to full-scale transfer of technology, the official, who requested anonymity, said both the countries are co-developers and India will have equal rights over the the technology.

“We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project. India has equal rights. We will have the wherewithal to continue production. We are equal partner in the project,” he said.

In the negotiations for the project, India had insisted that it must get all the required codes and access to critical technology so that it can upgrade the aircraft as per its requirements.

After years of delay, India and Russia are likely to soon ink a "milestone" pact to finalise the detailed design for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and move ahead with the multi-billion dollar co- development project.

In February last year, India and Russia had revived talks on the project after a clearance from then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Since then, a lot of issues related to work share, IPR and technology transfer among others have been sorted out between the two sides, along with the monetary commitments.

In 2007, India and Russia had inked an inter-governmental pact for the FGFA project.

In December 2010, India had agreed to pay USD 295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter, which is called in India as the ‘Perspective Multi-role Fighter’ (PMF). However, negotiations faced various hurdles in the subsequent years.

Sources said the work on various co-development projects have been expedited following the government’s renewed focus on modernisation of the armed forces.

In March, India and Russia had signed two key agreements for long-term maintenance and technical support for Russian- made Su-30MKI fighter jets of the Indian Air Force.

*Currently, the IAF operates around 230 Su-30MKI fighter jets and, as per the agreements, Russian defence majors United Aircraft Corporation and the United Engine Corporation will render technical support and provide maintenance services and spares for the fleet for a period of five years.*

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## Salim_Shady

I have lost track of how many deals are signed on this aircraft and every time they say its final. I will believe when I see pic of first prototype in the making.

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## SorryNotSorry

This is great news!


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## Salim_Shady

nang2 said:


> haha, look who has been living under a rock.


I would graciously welcome any reliable source to disprove my assertion and clear my ignorance. I would edit my post and give you the credit.

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## nang2

Salim_Shady said:


> I would graciously welcome any reliable source to disprove my assertion and clear my ignorance. I would edit my post and give you the credit.


70 jf 17s have been delivered to PAF. A few more are being built for export. Yet, you are still indulging yourself with Indian preferred terms like IOC and FOC.

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## Fledgingwings

Salim_Shady said:


> I have lost track of how many deals are signed on this aircraft and every time they say its final. I will believe when I see pic of first prototype in the making.


Right ! plus india is considering AMCA and dumped Tejas after years of time and funds pumping into.what is the real deal for indian military? that is my question.


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## gslv mk3

Fledgingwings said:


> Right ! plus india is considering AMCA and dumped Tejas after years of time and funds pumping into.



Who order 123 LCA Mk1/Mk1As then ? Maldivian Air Force ?

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## Salim_Shady

nang2 said:


> 70 jf 17s have been delivered to PAF. A few more are being built for export. Yet, you are still indulging yourself with Indian preferred terms like IOC and FOC.



IOC and FOC are standard terms used in all industries world wide. If chinese manufactures follow different terminology or methodology I would like to know. Any public notification regarding something analogous to IOC or FOC in pakistani or chinese media, would be what I am seeking. Just like certification process for your C919 is all over Internet and news agencies or how your amphibious aircraft is under going certification.

You might consider it trolling but I am genuinely ignorant about it and I would like to be enlightened on the same.



nang2 said:


> 70 jf 17s have been delivered to PAF



There are 10+ Tejas prototypes available to IAF and 4 Tejas in IOC configuration, doesn't mean they meet all parameters required of them. If Tejas fails to acquire FOC, they all will be junked. Operating an aircraft does not necessarily means fully certified.


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## nang2

Salim_Shady said:


> IOC and FOC are standard terms used in all industries world wide. If chinese manufactures follow different terminology or methodology I would like to know. Any public notification regarding something analogous to IOC or FOC in pakistani or chinese media, would be what I am seeking. Just like certification process for your C919 is all over Internet and news agencies or how your amphibious aircraft is under going certification.
> 
> You might consider it trolling but I am genuinely ignorant about it and I would like to be enlightened on the same.
> 
> 
> 
> There are 10+ Tejas prototypes available to IAF and 4 Tejas in IOC configuration, doesn't mean they meet all parameters required of them. If Tejas fails to acquire FOC, they all will be junked. Operating an aircraft does not necessarily means fully certified.


You are mixing military aircraft with commercial aircraft. 

Operating a military aircraft has nothing to do with certification on foreign terms. You can call 70 JF17s anything you like, either IOC or no certification at all. Nobody cares. Heck, there are also 400+ J-10s in China that have no IOC/FOC certifications if you wish to extend IOC/FOC labeling.


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## ranadd

What the heck did I just read!!.


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## Fledgingwings

RayBan said:


> cause India coming up with an INGENIOUS AND INDIGENOUS project AMCA.


Saying ingenious is I gotta see.



gslv mk3 said:


> Who order 123 LCA Mk1/Mk1As then ? Maldivian Air Force ?


Talking about your navy.Only tomorrow will tell whos got what.


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## gslv mk3

Fledgingwings said:


> Talking about your navy



The Navy project was too demanding for a platform like LCA anyway.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Courtesy:https://vk.com/sibspotting?z=photo-102632131_456243243/album-102632131_221685044
Is it just me or does the intake have a curve?

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## eldamar

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indo-r...raft-programme-indian-air-force/1/959013.html


So after 10 years and 300million usd spent just for the preliminary design phase, the FGFA project is finally doomed to the gallows? To think of all that recent bharati fanfare over the years and photobombing of the T-50 in the forums, along with all that much-hyped noise about investing 6.7billion for developing the plane

Talk only, no action.

This is the Indian way of doing things. Those few that does get done- is done according to the 'Indian Schedule'. How do such ppl ever become a superpower like how they openly-profess to be?

Reading indian defence, R&D and economic development news is like reading a supermarket tabloid magazine.

Hahahaha.



PS* just backtrack n read through pages in this thread alone n u will realise what a comical journey this FGFA development has undertaken. Despite all tt chest-thumping, loud groans n aggressive-posturing over the years, zero results were delivered.

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## Han Patriot

This is typical ok....it's always in planning and testing stage. To be done, can be done, shall be done


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## ejaz007

*Steep price rise hits Indo-Russian 5th-gen fighter project*
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, May 24, 2017 (Photo Credit: Kirill Kudryavtsev/AFP via Getty Images)

NEW DELHI — Just when its production was about to take off, the Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft appears to be "lost" because Russians are demanding an "unaffordable price for the aircraft," according to a senior Indian Air Force official.

The Russians are demanding more than $7 billion as part of India's share in the development of the FGFA. The Russian side argues that the higher price is justified because the aircraft's development will include transfer of technology of several high-tech systems.

"India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost " the official said.

The Indian version of the FGFA, known as the Perspective Multi-role Fighter, is being jointly designed and developed by India and Russia. State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited from the Indian side and Rosoboronexport from Russia are the designated lead agencies. 

India and Russia agreed to jointly build the FGFA in 2007 and signed an initial development agreement in 2010. The final agreement, which has not yet been inked, will release India's share of development cost for the FGFA project. 

In early 2016, an internal report by the Indian Air Force listed several drawbacks of the proposed FGFA with Russia, including the engine, stealth capabilities and an expensive radar.

According to the report, there are about 40 parameters related to the aircraft that require improvement, which the Air Force had wanted the Russians to meet. These include better stealth, AESA radar, advanced sensors, networking and combat avionics, and supercruise.

After the Air Force report, Ministry of Defence officials here were quick to say that despite the shortcomings, solutions are being worked out and the FGFA project is on track.

The FGFA has a potential order by the Indian Air Force worth more than $25 billion.

The service has a requirement for 120-130 swing-role planes with stealth features for increased survivability, advanced avionics, smart weapons, top-end mission computers and 360-degree situational awareness. The ability to supercruise or sustain supersonic speeds in combat configuration without kicking in fuel-guzzling afterburners is a key Indian requirement, according to another Indian Air Force official.

The Russian side is moving ahead with its FGFA version known as T-50. The first flight of a T-50 took place in 2010, and induction is scheduled this year. Russia announced it will fly the T-50 with an advanced engine, giving it Mach 1.5 supercruise, by 2020.

The Russians are developing the FGFA in response to the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning aircraft.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/steep-price-rise-hits-indo-russian-5th-gen-fighter-project


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## 帅的一匹

Russia has asked India pay 7 billions for TOT, which means the FGFA project is substantially dead.


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## 帅的一匹

When will that weapon bays of T50 open?


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## ptldM3

wanglaokan said:


> When will that weapon bays of T50 open?




It's been open years ago.

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## 帅的一匹

ptldM3 said:


> It's been open years ago.


Picture?


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## X_Killer

ptldM3 said:


> It's been open years ago.


No dear,
There are 0 ammunition firing from IWB.

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## 帅的一匹

X_Killer said:


> No dear,
> There are 0 ammunition firing from IWB.



I think T50 is a failed design, is it? I always feel Russian want to hide something.


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## X_Killer

wanglaokan said:


> I think T50 is a failed design, is it? I always feel Russian want to hide something.


IWB integration is still ON.
Might be completed by year end.
We can't judge any product with its packaging.
It's potential can be calculated only after FOC.

Every country wants to hide the actual potential of its sophisticated machines, Russia is not new.
Even there is no official specifications are out for F-22.


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## 帅的一匹

X_Killer said:


> IWB integration is still ON.
> Might be completed by year end.
> We can't judge any product with its packaging.
> It's potential can be calculated only after FOC.
> 
> Every country wants to hide the actual potential of its sophisticated machines, Russia is not new.
> Even there is no official specifications are out for F-22.


First you shall prove it has weapon bay


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## X_Killer

wanglaokan said:


> First you shall prove it has weapon bay


You have to reach Sukhoi Design Bureau for that stuff.
But we know that the IWB is already successfully tested on Su-47.


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## ranadd

> *Source Based News:*
> 
> Russian have offered India access to complete PAKFA technology to be used to create FGFA
> FGFA will be made using those technology but funding FGFA development is completely under Indian head.
> For accessing this whole technology, a suitable remuneration is requested. Even for any FGFA related work, a suitable compensation has been requested.
> Indian side has been negotiating hard and trying to make the Russian Side see how Su30 MKI evolved when Indian bought them.
> Russian side has linked the whole deal with a strategic purchases of S-400 and S-500 components.
> Their contention is access to everything but for a suitable price.
> They also expressed helplessness regarding FGFA plan owing to no money being made available to do any kind of development for Indian project.
> Indian MOD internally studying the developments post Shri Arun Jaitley meeting and is expected to give a revert in coming month/months



PAK-FA 5th Generation Aircraft


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## Stephen Cohen

ranadd said:


> PAK-FA 5th Generation Aircraft



One source based news is that Six IAF pilots have gone for testing PAK FA 
in Russia


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## ranadd

Stephen Cohen said:


> One source based news is that Six IAF pilots have gone for testing PAK FA
> in Russia



Yup. Pictures are doing its rounds.


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## Stephen Cohen

ranadd said:


> Yup. Pictures are doing its rounds.



I have nt seen any picture ; any link


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## DarX

X_Killer said:


> We can't judge any product with its packaging.
> It's potential can be calculated only after FOC.



Hahaha. And yet Indians claim the LCA Tejas is the best fighter ever.



gslv mk3 said:


> Who order 123 LCA Mk1/Mk1As then ? Maldivian Air Force ?



Apparently the IAF would've preferred it if the 123 LCA Mk1/Mk1A's were ordered/donated to the Maldivian Air Force, because they really didn't ever want it for themselves, just like the Indian army was strong armed into ordering the Arjun white elephant.



Salim_Shady said:


> I have lost track of how many deals are signed on this aircraft and every time they say its final. I will believe when I see pic of first prototype in the making.



That is a very astute observation, and the question in turn is that how will it figure in the effectiveness of the project when it keeps getting delayed. When the plane will finally arrive, the world might've moved on.


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## ranadd

DarX said:


> Apparently the IAF would've preferred it if the 123 LCA Mk1/Mk1A's were ordered/donated to the Maldivian Air Force, because they really didn't ever want it for themselves, just like the Indian army was strong armed into ordering the Arjun white elephant.



What you see is Democracy/Civilian government in action. Either way ~140 air frames will be made for IAF. That's it.


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## X_Killer

DarX said:


> Hahaha. And yet Indians claim the LCA Tejas is the best fighter ever.


If you want to see everything with same window than JF-17 is still in Prototype stage which even didn't have IOC , let FOC alone.


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## ranadd

> There are 3 Indian prototypes (PMI-1/2/3) in production on KnAAZ to be delivered in 2019-2020.



From the other forums.


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## Zer0reZ

*Contract on Russian-Indian Joint 5th Gen Fighter Jet to Be Signed Shortly*

The contract on creation of a Russia-India fifth-generation FGFA fighter will be signed shortly, the general director of Russia's Rostec state corporation said Tuesday.
ZHUKOVSKY (Sputnik) – The Russian-Indian Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) has stealth capabilities and is based on the Russian T-50 prototype jet.
"As far as the fifth-generation [plane] is concerned, the work is underway. The first stage is complete. The second stage is being discussed. I think it will be completed in near future, the documents have been signed," Sergey Chemezov told a press conference.
The FGFA project came about following the signing of a Russian-Indian cooperation agreement on October 18, 2007.

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## X_Killer

Zer0reZ said:


> *Contract on Russian-Indian Joint 5th Gen Fighter Jet to Be Signed Shortly*
> 
> The contract on creation of a Russia-India fifth-generation FGFA fighter will be signed shortly, the general director of Russia's Rostec state corporation said Tuesday.
> ZHUKOVSKY (Sputnik) – The Russian-Indian Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) has stealth capabilities and is based on the Russian T-50 prototype jet.
> "As far as the fifth-generation [plane] is concerned, the work is underway. The first stage is complete. The second stage is being discussed. I think it will be completed in near future, the documents have been signed," Sergey Chemezov told a press conference.
> The FGFA project came about following the signing of a Russian-Indian cooperation agreement on October 18, 2007.


Not possible by year end.


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## Zer0reZ

X_Killer said:


> Not possible by year end.


I don't think final signatory is possible by year end but still negotiation are going smoothly.


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## X_Killer

Zer0reZ said:


> I don't think final signatory is possible by year end but still negotiation are going smoothly.


Yup, all three (FGFA , Super Sukhoi & S-400) important negotiations are underway.


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## Zer0reZ

X_Killer said:


> Yup, all three (FGFA , Super Sukhoi & S-400) important negotiations are underway.


S-400 will be deliver by 2019, GoI won't disclose its real delivery time anyway. Su-30 upgrade is being evaluated right now for how much Russian upgrade is needed.


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## X_Killer

Zer0reZ said:


> S-400 will be deliver by 2019, GoI won't disclose its real delivery time anyway. Su-30 upgrade is being evaluated right now for how much Russian upgrade is needed.


That's only our perception about s-400.
These all three important deal are yet to be inked.


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## Hallian_Khan

X_Killer said:


> If you want to see everything with same window than JF-17 is still in Prototype stage which even didn't have IOC , let FOC alone.


What....? Comeon stop brain farting plz it wont help


----------



## Zer0reZ

X_Killer said:


> That's only our perception about s-400.
> These all three important deal are yet to be inked.



For S-400 negotiation started in 2015 i think and final signatory will be done end by end of the year so it would take 2yrs which is normal. Su-30 mki upgrade just started so signatory would take at least a year or so same goes for PMF. Nothing unexpected here.


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## X_Killer

Hallian_Khan said:


> What....? Comeon stop brain farting plz it wont help


What's Wrong with it when I take both projects which starts nearly in same time window with a difference of 5yrs?
Hope you are brain farting when you are unable to digest the truth...



Zer0reZ said:


> For S-400 negotiation started in 2015 i think and final signatory will be done end by end of the year so it would take 2yrs which is normal. Su-30 mki upgrade just started so signatory would take at least a year or so same goes for PMF. Nothing unexpected here.


I'm also saying saying the same but in precise manner, that all three deals will be done by near mid of 2018.


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## Prechko

T-50-9 at MAKS airshow (first flight 24th April `17)

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## Stephen Cohen

*http://ptinews.com/news/8680005_India--Russia-to-ink-deal-on-5th-gen-fighter-design*

*India, Russia to ink deal on 5th-gen fighter design*


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## Prechko



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## Gessler

A single picture to explain all that only a long forum post could...






@Abingdonboy @Unknowncommando @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @ptldM3 @Prechko @Water Car Engineer @gslv mk3

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## Taygibay

Interesting product of yours Gessler mate!

Amongst the thousand words that picture evokes for me
is the fact that while the PAK_FA is advanced on sensors
it can't seem to reach solid production to which another
_fifth gêne_ giant jet about whose sensors little is known
beat it handsomely.

There may be a poll question in there :
Would you prefer - a J-20 with Byelka and Atoll onboard
- or a PAK-FA with whatever Celestial crystal ball.

Might be too simple a question though.

Thanks for the hail, great day to you, Tay.

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## Gessler

This jet has been officially named *Su-57*.


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## he-man

I am still not convinced on the polish.....ram has still not been applied fully.
The R&D has been reduced to 6 from 11 billion proposed.

But this is a good product for us,we have no other option.

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## X_Killer

This will be a great achievement for IAF and will give a setback to both Easter and western Enemies.
Now, I can hope AMCA's first flight by 2025 if FGFA gets Airborne by 2020.


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## he-man

X_Killer said:


> This will be a great achievement for IAF and will give a setback to both Easter and western Enemies.
> Now, I can hope AMCA's first flight by 2025 if FGFA gets Airborne by 2020.



No chance on AMCA.....we have neither the funds nor the infrastructure.
Its a waste of time............u expect us to produce amca and pakfa at the same time??
Thats madness.


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## X_Killer

he-man said:


> No chance on AMCA.....we have neither the funds nor the infrastructure.
> Its a waste of time............u expect us to produce amca and pakfa at the same time??
> Thats madness.


Both projects will run in parallel. 
For infrastructure : FGFA will use Su-30MKI Production lines while AMCA will use Tejas Production line which will get free or partially free after 2025.
For funds: AMCA is under development phase and earlier this year got funds to produce full scale model , which is under construction at Hyderabad.
For avionics: AMCA will use many techs which will be Jointly developed for FGFA.
For powerplant: by the end of next year, it'll be cleared that Kaveri met its success or not. If fails it'll get GE-F414 as per plan.

I think everything is at its place


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## Gessler

he-man said:


> I am still not convinced on the polish.....ram has still not been applied fully.
> The R&D has been reduced to 6 from 11 billion proposed.
> 
> But this is a good product for us,we have no other option.



We haven't seen the LRIP yet. Besides, RAM is not applied all over the jet (that was back in F117 days), it's only applied where the reflection is difficult to mask with shaping and/or saw-toothed edges. Like corners & wing leading-edges.

Ruble has devalued a lot. Prices might look lesser in USD terms. Even from that 6bn, India will be paying only 3bn, rest will come from Russia.

Su-57 is the only logical replacement of Su-30MKI.


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## he-man

Gessler said:


> We haven't seen the LRIP yet. Besides, RAM is not applied all over the jet (that was back in F117 days), it's only applied where the reflection is difficult to mask with shaping and/or saw-toothed edges. Like corners & wing leading-edges.
> 
> Ruble has devalued a lot. Prices might look lesser in USD terms. Even from that 6bn, India will be paying only 3bn, rest will come from Russia.
> 
> Su-57 is the only logical replacement of Su-30MKI.



Earlier the total budget was 11.
Both countries have cut the expenses which is especially stupid on indian side.........could have invested more and followed up the components in amca.

We will do a parallel research for amca....another disaster in the making.



X_Killer said:


> Both projects will run in parallel.
> For infrastructure : FGFA will use Su-30MKI Production lines while AMCA will use Tejas Production line which will get free or partially free after 2025.
> For funds: AMCA is under development phase and earlier this year got funds to produce full scale model , which is under construction at Hyderabad.
> For avionics: AMCA will use many techs which will be Jointly developed for FGFA.
> For powerplant: by the end of next year, it'll be cleared that Kaveri met its success or not. If fails it'll get GE-F414 as per plan.
> 
> I think everything is at its place



Nope.......u will see in 7-8 years .
No sane country produces so many fighters at the same time.....not even RUSSIA or USA.
AMCA is simply not needed yet,invest there post 2030 when enough pakfa,rafale and lca are there.

Whats the rush?


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## X_Killer

he-man said:


> .
> Nope.......u will see in 7-8 years .
> No sane country produces so many fighters at the same time.....not even RUSSIA or USA.
> AMCA is simply not needed yet,invest there post 2030 when enough pakfa,rafale and lca are there.
> 
> Whats the rush?


Don't get confused, The time shared by me for the first flight.

US produced f-16 at average rate of 30 units/year with peak rate of 59 units /year. Along with F-15 at 24 units/year & f-18 at 18 units/year. Trainers and transport aircrafts are not included.
India produced su-30mki at 16 units/year and Tejas will be produced at 16+ units/year after 2018. 

If you have your own components producing chain than you might not need to wait for anything from other.

This not called as rush, this is known as pre planning.



Gessler said:


> Su-57 is the only logical replacement of Su-30MKI.


I don't think so.
Su-57 will help IAF to increase the number of squadrons from 33 to 42-45. 
But AMCA will replace jags and migs


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## he-man

X_Killer said:


> Don't get confused, The time shared by me for the first flight.
> 
> US produced f-16 at average rate of 30 units/year with peak rate of 59 units /year. Along with F-15 at 24 units/year & f-18 at 18 units/year. Trainers and transport aircrafts are not included.
> India produced su-30mki at 16 units/year and Tejas will be produced at 16+ units/year after 2018.
> 
> If you have your own components producing chain than you might not need to wait for anything from other.
> 
> This not called as rush, this is known as pre planning.



We are no USA.....first part.
Second,we dont have a big enough research budget.........what we will do is import all the components like in lca.
Why not just concentrate on pakfa and produce the components meanwhile.

Focus on AMCA later on post 2030.

In case u start writing about indigenous components in mki or lca.....dont bother,i know.The components mean radar,maws,rwr's,engines,hud's ,helmet's,seats etc.We havent done shit in that regard and looking at the planning we never will.

Quite simply we will never have funds to invest on the components indivisually if we keep on this.



X_Killer said:


> But AMCA will replace jags and migs



AMCA is supposed to be stealth.......LCA is the replacement of migs(21 and remaining (if) 27) and jaguars.
Most of all AMCA is a myth at the moment.


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## Glass

Gessler said:


> This jet has been officially named *Su-57*.



So no longer t50 ?


----------



## Gessler

he-man said:


> Earlier the total budget was 11.
> Both countries have cut the expenses which is especially stupid on indian side.........could have invested more and followed up the components in amca.



We invest as much as is necessary to get what we want - which is production-engineering ToT (so that we can make it in India) and any requested IAF-specific modifications to Su-57 design.

Most of the equipment (radars, EW, etc.) has already been developed by Russian money alone. Even the engine development is progressing.

The value of Ruble V/S Dollar has fluctuated wildly after the sanctions and there was heavy devaluation so that should be kept in mind when calculating expense in USD.

Russia doesn't pay it's own companies in USD. It pays in Rubles.



> We will do a parallel research for amca....another disaster in the making.



As you said yourself, AMCA is a paperplane at this point. HAL/DRDO/ADA has enough on it's hands with Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.1A...let alone Mk.2 - it's pointless to even worry about AMCA at this stage.



X_Killer said:


> I don't think so.
> Su-57 will help IAF to increase the number of squadrons from 33 to 42-45.
> But AMCA will replace jags and migs



So what plane do you think will replace MKIs (the first batches of which will need replacements in the early 2030s)?

LCA will replace MiG-21s
Rafale will replace MiG-27s and Jaguars
Su-57 will replace Su-30MKI (and probably MiG-29 too)

AMCA (if and when it comes) will replace the upgraded Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s



lllxi1998 said:


> So no longer t50 ?



The test prototypes that exist till now (latest is T-50-9) are still called that.

But when the plane enters production and joins Russian AF, it will be called Su-57. Just like how the Flanker was called T-10 in prototype stage and called Su-27 when it entered service.

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## Glass

ah interesting. When will the first su 57 enter RuAF and IAF ?


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## Gessler

lllxi1998 said:


> ah interesting. When will the first su 57 enter RuAF and IAF ?



RuAF will take first Su-57 LRIP (batch contains total 12) in 2018 I think.

After 2020, production of Su-57 Phase-II will begin with several improvements, like addition of Izdeliye-30 engines.

The first prototypes of HAL PMF (Indian version) will appear around 2020. Entering IAF service will be around 2024-2025. This will be of a Phase-II standard.

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## X_Killer

@Gessler 
Su-30MKI was Inducted in 2002 and will serve for atleast 40years. So please correct your records.



he-man said:


> AMCA is supposed to be stealth.......LCA is the replacement of migs(21 and remaining (if) 27) and jaguars.
> Most of all AMCA is a myth at the moment.


AMCA will be the replacement for Jaguar and Mig-29's which has phase out schedule after 2030.



he-man said:


> We are no USA.....first part.
> Second,we dont have a big enough research budget.........what we will do is import all the components like in lca.
> Why not just concentrate on pakfa and produce the components meanwhile.
> 
> Focus on AMCA later on post 2030.
> 
> In case u start writing about indigenous components in mki or lca.....dont bother,i know.The components mean radar,maws,rwr's,engines,hud's ,helmet's,seats etc.We havent done shit in that regard and looking at the planning we never will.


This was my reply when you said no-one has Capability to produce jets at such rate. Don't get confused.



he-man said:


> The components mean radar,maws,rwr's,engines,hud's ,helmet's,seats etc.We havent done shit in that regard and looking at the planning we never will.


DRDO already developed Uttam AESA which is confirmed for Tejas Mk1A, Engine is in final stage, MAWS & RWR already developed by DARE (For SUPER SUKHOI Upgrade), and remaining things will get off the shelf and from FGFA.


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## Gessler

X_Killer said:


> @Gessler
> Su-30MKI was Inducted in 2002 and will serve for atleast 40years. So please correct your records.



And what plane do you think will replace them when they retire? That was the question.


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## X_Killer

Gessler said:


> And what plane do you think will replace them when they retire? That was the question.


Right now its 2017 and Su-30MKI will phased out after 2042.
It's quite earlier to predict it.


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## Gessler

X_Killer said:


> Right now its 2017 and Su-30MKI will phased out after 2042.
> It's quite earlier to predict it.



It's not quite early if you know the choices we have - or are likely to have.

Su-57 is the only 5th gen air superiority fighter on the horizon. AMCA, even if it comes into being by that time, will be a medium-class swingrole fighter.

And I'm pretty sure the earliest batches of MKIs will last in service till early 2040s. Mid-30s most likely.


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## X_Killer

Gessler said:


> It's not quite early if you know the choices we have - or are likely to have.
> 
> Su-57 is the only 5th gen air superiority fighter on the horizon. AMCA, even if it comes into being by that time, will be a medium-class swingrole fighter.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure the earliest batches of MKIs will last in service till early 2040s. Mid-30s most likely.


Su-30MKI may get structural refit to serve until 2050 as we are doing with our jags.

Anyways, once if AMCA will met enormous success than it'll pave way for another project either on our own or under a JV.


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## ejaz007

*Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia*
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi   2 days ago
2K77





*A T-50 prototype for the Su-57 flies at the MAKS 2011 air show. (Alex Beltyukov via WIkipedia Commons)*

NEW DELHI – The ambitious $10 billion Indo-Russian program for joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, faces a new serious hurdle, as the Indian Air Force demands a discontinuation of the project.

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.



FGFA also does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome. A second service official said the modular engine concept is required for the fleet serviceability and availability of FGFA aircrafts at short notice, since it can be done by the user itself.

Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.

Russian Embassy diplomats here were unavailable for comments.

Vaijinder K Thakur, retired IAF squadron leader and defense analyst disagreement with the Air Force assessment of capability, saying that the current Russian FGFA prototype, known as Su-57, features the AL-41F1 engine. But the production variant of FGFA would be fitted with the Product 30 engine which is 30 percent lighter, features improved thrust, and has better fuel efficiency and fewer moving parts. That results in improved reliability and 30 percent lower life-cycle cost, Thakur said.

Without having operated U.S. fighters, the IAF is hardly in a position to pronounce judgment on the comparative long-term operating costs of Russian and U.S. fighters, Thakur added.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...rce-wants-out-of-fighter-program-with-russia/


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## Hindustani78

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/61189233.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

NEW DELHI: State-run aerospace behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) today strongly pitched for going ahead with the fifth-generation fighter jet project .

HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju said the multi-billion dollar co-development project will be an opportunity as no country has ever offered such critical technology to India.

"We are still hopeful. It is an opportunity for the industry as well as for the country. This is an opportunity for us to go in for this kind of (high) technology which has not been offered to us by any other country

"The impact of the project will be very positive. FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) is my dream, I am hopeful about it," Raju told reporters on the sidelines of an event. 

Raju also said that HAL was looking at utilising the Sukhoi manufacturing facility for carrying out maintenance of the fleet as well as there is no future order for the jet.

************
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...any-strings-attached/articleshow/61190714.cms

The Indian Air Force will start the process soon to acquire a fleet of single engine fighter jets 

At the event, the 50th AL31FP engine, manufactured from raw materials by Sukhoi engine division of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (Koraput) was handed over to the Indian Air Force as part of the celebration of the 70th year of India- Russia ties. 

"The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI jets and is manufactured from raw material stage at the HAL Koraput," said HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju. 







AL-31FP is a high temperature turbojet by-pass engine of modular design. A specific feature of AL-31FP is an axi-symmetric vectoring nozzle with a thrust vector angle of ±15° in the vertical plane providing super maneuverability of the aircraft. The vectoring nozzle control is integrated with the engine control system. AL-31FP engines ensure stable operation in all available evolutions of the aircraft in super maneuverability modes. AL-31FP engines power advanced multipurpose Su-30 MKI fighters of the 4+ generation


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## Papa Dragon

*HAL strongly bats for FGFA project with Russia*

*




*

State-run aerospace behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) today strongly pitched for going ahead with the fifth-generation fighter jet project with Russia, though the Indian Air Force is understood to have reservations over it.

HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju said the multi-billion dollar co-development project with Russia will be an opportunity as no country has ever offered such critical technology to India.

"We are still hopeful. It is an opportunity for the industry as well as for the country. This is an opportunity for us to go in for this kind of (high) technology which has not been offered to us by any other country (except Russia)," he said.

According to official sources, the IAF is not very keen to pursue the project in view of the high cost.

Asked about IAF's reservations about the project, Raju did not give a direct reply and insisted that it would help India's aerospace sector to a great extent.

"The impact of the project will be very positive. FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) is my dream, I am hopeful about it," Raju told reporters on the sidelines of an event.

He said it will take three years for the first FGFA to fly from the day the government gives the go ahead to the project.

A high-level committee set up by the government to examine various aspects of the project has recently submitted its report and the defence ministry is likely to take a call on it soon.

In 2007, India and Russia had inked an inter-governmental pact for the FGFA project.

In December 2010, India had agreed to pay USD 295 million (Rs 1,897 crore) towards the preliminary design of the fighter, which is called in India as the 'Perspective Multi- role Fighter'.

However, the negotiations faced various hurdles in the subsequent years.

In February last year, India and Russia revived talks on the project after a clearance from the then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Raju also said that HAL was looking at utilising the Sukhoi manufacturing facility for carrying out maintenance of the fleet as well as there is no future order for the jet.

On the Indo-Russian joint venture to produce 200 Kamov light weight multi-role military helicopters, he said things are moving fast and that a request for quotation (RFQ) is likely to be issued by the government soon.

In October last year, India and Russia had finalised a broad agreement for a joint venture between HAL and two Russian defence majors.

India is procuring Kamov choppers to replace its ageing Cheetah and Chetak helicopters.

Sixty Kamov-226T helicopters will be supplied to India in fly-away condition, while 140 will be manufactured in India.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/HAL-strongly-bats-for-FGFA-project-with-Russia-444077

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-project-with-russia/articleshow/61189233.cms


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## leapx

*https://iz.ru/631483/video/istrebitel-piatogo-pokoleniia-poluchil-nazvanie-su-57*

*Su-57 fire R-77 from IWB？ *


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## Frank Martin

Russia’s latest fighter aircraft flew on 5 December for the first time with the NPO Saturn “Product 30” engine, which will be the production standard for the Sukhoi Su-57.

Sukhoi has built and flown nine flight test prototypes of the Su-57 fighter powered by NPO Saturn Product 117 engines, which are derived from the AL-41F-1S afterburning turbofans developed for the Su-35.

But the Russian air force plans to replace the Product 117 in series production starting in 2020 with the Product 30 engines, possibly featuring a new engine core of which few details are known.

Russian government officials have said the *Product 30 will provide more thrust and fuel efficiency, with reduced weight and maintenance requirements*.






The 5 December test flight by Sukhoi chief test pilot Sergei Bogdan from the Gromov flight test centre at Zhukovsky AB lasted 17min, according to Russia’s Ministry for Industry and Trade.

Photos and video of the flight shows the Product 30 installed in the No. 1, or port-side, engine position, with a Product 117 engine remaining on the starboard side. *The Product 30 features a serrated engine nozzle, compared to the flat nozzle on the Product 117.*

The flight test was conducted by the second Su-57 aircraft prototype, also known as T-50-2.

"This is proof of the high potential of Russian aircraft building, capable of creating highly intelligent advanced systems," says Russian Industry and Trade minister Denis Manturov.

The Su-57 is expected to enter service as Russia’s first so-called fifth-generation fighter after the end of this decade, featuring some stealth technology, along with internal weapons bays and advanced sensors, including active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars and infrared search and track cameras.

Government testing of the Su-57 prototypes is nearing the end of the first stage, according to the Ministry of Industry and Trade.

The Putin government is still assembling the next multi-year state armaments plan, which will decide the timing and the number of Su-57s purchased through 2027. But the Ministry of Industry and Trade still the current plan remains on track, with the Su-57 becoming Sukhoi’s largest military product by 2020.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...irst-su-57-fitted-with-new-product-30-443899/

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## ptldM3

Higher resolution close up of new engine.

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## ptldM3



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## araberuni7

*India withdraws from FGFA project, leaving Russia to go it alone* 
http://www.janes.com/article/79457/india-withdraws-from-fgfa-project-leaving-russia-to-go-it-alone
*Key Points*

India has pulled out of its 11-year collaborative programme with Russia to build a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft
The decision has ramifications for both the IAF and the Russian aerospace industry
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has shelved its 11-year old collaborative Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme with Russia following enduring differences over its developmental cost and technological capabilities.

Senior Indian officials, including National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, recently informed a visiting Russian ministerial delegation that India was withdrawing from the programme, official sources told _Jane’s_ on 20 April. A Russian Sukhoi Su-57 multirole fighter during an aerial display at the Forsazh aviation festival in December 2017. India&#8217;s participation in the FGFA project, which was based on the Su-57, has gone belly up. (Sergei Bobylev\TASS)

The Indian officials are believed to have stated that the IAF could, at a later date, ‘revisit’ the FGFA project or alternatively acquire the fully developed platform once it had been inducted into the Russian Air Force, but did not elaborate.

Industry officials said the FGFA project, in which India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was the lead developmental agency, also did not feature in talks during Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman’s visit to Moscow in early April.

“The FGFA project had become an instance of too little, too late,” said military analyst and retired air marshal V K Bhatia. To pursue it any longer would not have served the IAF interests in any way as it struggles to make up fast-depleting fighter numbers, he added.

The IAF believes that the Sukhoi Su-57 (T-50 PAK-FA) fighter, which India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) designated the Perspective Multi-Role Fighter, does not meet its requirements for stealth, combat avionics, radars and sensors. Seven FGFA prototypes are currently undergoing flight-testing in Russia, but for now there is no indication as to when the platform is likely to enter series production.

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## Flynn Swagmire

SU-57 is a 5th Generation fighter jet with ~20 billions of R&D spending. Seems like indians expected an invisible fighter jet from Russians...


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## Broccoli

Cycle Macson said:


> SU-57 is a 5th Generation fighter jet with ~20 billions of R&D spending. Seems like indians expected an invisible fighter jet from Russians...



Most estimates I have seen about Su-57 R&D spending give figure of 8-10 billion. That's less than what Swedes have used for their Gripen project! You don't get proper 5th gen fighter with that money.

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## Project 4202

Broccoli said:


> Most estimates I have seen about Su-57 R&D spending give figure of *8-10 billion*. That's less than what Swedes have used for their Gripen project! You don't get proper 5th gen fighter with that money.




That's only for the first phase, the second phase will cost at least another 5 billion, and cost of labor is also cheaper in Russia, as for Indians parting ways, *if true then its their loss*, when they buy ready made Su-57 in future, any TOT they will be getting will be much less than what we offering now.


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## Skull and Bones

Project 4202 said:


> That's only for the first phase, the second phase will cost at least another 5 billion, and cost of labor is also cheaper in Russia, as for Indians parting ways, *if true then its their loss*, when they buy ready made Su-57 in future, any TOT they will be getting will be much less than what we offering now.



Russia denied Indian pilots to access Su-57.


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## PurpleStone

Skull and Bones said:


> Russia denied Indian pilots to access Su-57.



The real reason is this



PurpleStone said:


> *Sources close to the Pentagon say India would not be sold the F-35 as long as it is partnering Russia in the FGFA co-development project. That is because Washington would guard against the leakage of F-35 technology into the FGFA.*



Modi succumbed to US pressure.


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## araberuni7

India is not the 1960s India both financially and politically. Now India has access to global military technology. So why is sticking to a glorified Su-35 under the hood of Su-57. Look at the procurement pattern of India. Do you think IAF care of Russian junk when they can get their hands on high tech radar, electronics, avionics and software. IAF has rigorous vetting process. I am sure they have done due diligence and booted Su-57 because its not a fifth-gen fighter but a fifth-gen in making.

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## IblinI

araberuni7 said:


> India is not the 1960s India both financially and politically. Now India has access to global military technology. So why is sticking to a glorified Su-35 under the hood of Su-57. Look at the procurement pattern of India. Do you think IAF care of Russian junk when they can get their hands on high tech radar, electronics, avionics and software. IAF has rigorous vetting process. I am sure they have done due diligence and booted Su-57 because its not a fifth-gen fighter but a fifth-gen in making.


What other option do they have,F35? Get in the line and wait for more than ten years first.


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## ejaz007

*$8.63-billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice*
*NSA Doval tells Russian delegation that India shelving $8.63 billion deal*
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi Last Updated at April 20, 2018 06:22 IST







 Indigenisation bluesCongress, BJP trade charges over defence dealsGovt begins process to procure 110 fighter jets for IAF for $9-13 bnWhy doesn't media question PM Modi on Rafale fighter jet deal: Rahul GandhiNavy to consider new ship-borne Kamov-226T helicopters
The proposal for India and Russia to jointly develop an advanced fighter — the eponymous Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) — has been formally buried. _Business Standard_ has learnt that National Security Advisor Ajit Doval conveyed the decision to a Russian ministerial delegation at a “Defence Acquisition Meeting” in end-February.

Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, who attended the meeting, asked the Russians to proceed alone with developing their fifth-generation fighter. They said India might possibly join the project later, or buy the fully developed fighter outright, after it entered service with the Russian Air Force.

New Delhi and Moscow have discussed the FGFA since 2007, when they agreed that Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would partner Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau (Sukhoi) in developing and manufacturing the fighter. In 2010, Sukhoi flew the fighter, called Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or “Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation” (PAK-FA). Seven prototypes are currently in flight-testing.

Russia said the PAK-FA met its needs, but the India Air Force (IAF) wanted a better fighter. So HAL and Sukhoi negotiated an $8.63-billion deal to improve the PAK-FA with the IAF’s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and airborne radar with world-beating range. In all, the IAF demanded some 50 improvements to the PAK-FA, including 360-degree radar and more powerful engines.

Defence ministry sources who played a direct role in negotiations with Russia say much of this money was earmarked for Indian production facilities for manufacturing 127 FGFAs, and for India’s work share in developing advanced avionics for the fighter. It also included the cost of four PAK-FA prototypes for IAF test pilots to fly.

Now, the IAF has backed away from the FGFA because it argues the PAK-FA — which Sukhoi has been test-flying since January 2010 — is not stealthy enough for a fifth-generation combat aircraft.

Aerospace analysts who support the PAK-FA reject this argument. They point out that the US Air Force F-22 Raptor, was built with an extraordinary degree of stealth, but that proved to be counterproductive, since it resulted in high maintenance and life-cycle costs. Burned by that emphasis on stealth alone, US designers de-emphasised stealth while building their latest fifth-generation fighter, the F-35 Lightning II. Instead, they focused on building its combat edge through better sensors, highly networked avionics and superior long-range weapons.

The cancellation of the FGFA project has far-reaching implications for the IAF, for which this was once its high-tech future fighter. United Progressive Alliance (UPA) defence minister AK Antony had ruled out buying the F-35 Lightning II, arguing that India would have the FGFA to meet its fifth-generation fighter needs.

Indian aerospace designers also cited the FGFA experience as essential learning for developing the indigenous fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is pursuing.

Now, the FGFA’s burial sets the stage for the IAF to eventually acquire the F-35 Lightning II, which comes in air force as well as naval variants. Indian military aviation, once overwhelmingly dependent upon Russian fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, has steadily increased its purchases from America. On Tuesday, appearing before a US Senate panel for his confirmation hearings, Admiral Philip Davidson — nominated as the top US military commander in the Indo-Pacific, said the US should aspire to “break down” India’s historical dependence upon Russia.

The IAF has been split down the middle on the FGFA. Broadly, flying branch officers of the “French school”– whose careers have centred on the Mirage and Jaguar fighters — have tended to oppose the FGFA. Meanwhile, officers from the “Russian school”, their careers grounded in the MiG and Sukhoi fleet, have supported the FGFA.

Opponents of the FGFA have even argued that the project would duplicate and hinder the indigenous AMCA project. However, last July, an experts group headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, set up to consider this question, ruled that there were no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. It stated that the technological expertise that would be gained from working with Russian experts would benefit the AMCA project.

In co-developing the FGFA, HAL was expected to deploy its experience in working with composite materials, which were to replace many of the metal fabricated panels on the PAK-FA. India was also expected to participate in designing the 360-degree active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. In addition, the experience of flight-testing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft would be refined by flight-testing a heavier, more complex fighter.

These challenges were expected to imbue Indian engineers with genuine design skills, of a far higher magnitude than the lessons learnt from licensed manufacture.

In addition, the FGFA’s foreclosure means the loss of $295 million that India sunk into its “preliminary design phase” between 2010 and 2013.

First Published: Fri, April 20 2018. 06:50 IST

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ct-with-russia-put-on-ice-118042000029_1.html


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## araberuni7

YuChen said:


> What other option do they have,F35? Get in the line and wait for more than ten years first.


India media reported that IAF was briefed on classified information of F-35 by Lockheed Marrin. Likewise @PurpleStone said India cannot fly F-35 until FGFA is dead. USA is opening up F-35 to friendly nations. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE and India are prime target markets. It's coming!!


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## randomradio

PurpleStone said:


> The real reason is this
> 
> 
> 
> Modi succumbed to US pressure.



India is not buying the F-35 either.



araberuni7 said:


> India media reported that IAF was briefed on classified information of F-35 by Lockheed Marrin. Likewise @PurpleStone said India cannot fly F-35 until FGFA is dead. USA is opening up F-35 to friendly nations. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE and India are prime target markets. It's coming!!



Nope. It wasn't done. 

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ighter-jet-says-iaf-chief-b-s-dhanoa-5082304/
_“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa told The Indian Express._

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## PurpleStone

randomradio said:


> ndia is not buying the F-35 either.



US had two conditions for selling F-35 to India

1) Cancel FGFA deal with Russia - completed

2) Buy F-16s now to get F-35 post 2030 - to be done as part of the MMRCA redux


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## randomradio

PurpleStone said:


> US had two conditions for selling F-35 to India
> 
> 1) Cancel FGFA deal with Russia - completed
> 
> 2) Buy F-16s now to get F-35 post 2030 - to be done as part of the MMRCA redux



Those were not the conditions. But there were other conditions.

1. Join the NSG and all other sister pacts except NPT and CTBT.
2. Sign the foundational agreements, CISMOA, LSA and BECA.

Condition 1, we have joined all sister pacts like the MTCR, Wassenaar Arrangement and Australia Group, but we are yet to join the NSG. Due to the delay from the Chinese side, the US is willing to overlook this and that's why they created the India specific MDP law.

Condition 2, we haven't signed CISMOA and BECA yet.

The FGFA cancellation has no relevance to the F-35 since we can easily buy a few squadrons of PAK FA and licence produce them at a later date.

The F-16/SH carrots are just carrots, there is no obligation for us to bite. Nor will they refuse to sell us the F-35 in case we need it at a later date.

Our fallback plan for the FGFA was always AMCA, this was made clear by two air chiefs.

The US is willing to sell us the F-35 as long as we don't ask for ToT and take the jets from American factories as fly away, but only after CISMOA, or the India specific COMCASA, is signed. The F-16/SH bait is only for a future F-35 production line with ToT in India.

We have no need for the F-35 when we will begin working on AMCA.

Our immediate priority right now is the LCA and MMRCA production lines.


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## Broccoli

Su-57 is not an 5th gen fighter. IAF has been complaining that it's not stealthy enough nor Russians allow them to get better look at it... talk about scam.

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## araberuni7

Trump administration recently opened up drones to friendly buyers. Drones is now commercial sale not foreign military sale. Trump administration also reduced surcharge on foreign military sale.
India can utilize bromance between Trump and Modi to get F-35. It's feasible if IAF and MoD take initiative to buy F-35.
F-16 Block 70 would be a great learning for TATA Advanced Systems. I think money well spend if India can learn from it and make thier own. This is how Mitsubishi Heavy Industry, TAI and KAI started.
My Indian cousin needs to ask simple question, what have you learnt past 70 years dealing with Russian?

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## 帅的一匹

Broccoli said:


> Su-57 is not an 5th gen fighter. IAF has been complaining that it's not stealthy enough nor Russians allow them to get better look at it... talk about scam.


Does it have weapon bay? I never see it open.


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## denel

Frankly speaking stealth is too much of a hype; it made sense to drop out.

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## conworldus

So is the FGFA program officially DEAD dead now? Russia has already developed the Su-57 and I don't think we will see any more modification (since there really has not been any modification from even the first T-50 prototype).


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## araberuni7

wanglaokan said:


> Does it have weapon bay? I never see it open.


Weapons carried inside weapons bay of wings. Russian weapons bay is not in the middle or side of air inlets. Su-57 released small diameter bomb from weapon bay. Russian A2A missile is yet to be tested.


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## Ultima Thule

araberuni7 said:


> Weapons carried inside weapons bay of wings. Russian weapons bay is not in the middle or side of air inlets. Su-57 released small diameter bomb from weapon bay. Russian A2A missile is yet to be tested.


Yes they are look at this Image @araberuni7


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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> Yes they are look at this Image @araberuni7
> View attachment 471692


I think the bump under the wing is instrument bay.

To be honest, I will reject FGFA as well if I were an Indian.

I think Su57 is the ultimate form of Su27 series, it's a semi-stealthy endeavour. With the cavity between the engine elevator, the missle will be sucked back towards the weapon bay whenever it's launched.

It will be a beast in WVR with 30 engine, but it will be taken out by F35A/F22 in BVR.

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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> I think the bump under the wing is instrument bay.


but sir russian says that SRAAM weapon bays @wanglaokan sir


wanglaokan said:


> I think Su57 is the ultimate form of Su27 series, it's a semi-stealthy endeavour





wanglaokan said:


> It will be a beast in WVR with 30 engine, but it will be taken out by F35A/F22 in BVR.


It will have improve version R-77, R-73 specially build for PAK-FA but you're right it has relatively high RCS as compare to F-22, F-35, it will destroyed by first look-down shoot-down philosophy by the BVR fired by F-22 and F-35 @wanglaokan


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## rcrmj

a very bad choice made by Indian, something is better than nothing````relying on American for 5th gen is as promising as relying on HAL

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## araberuni7

Regardless of what Russian says. Once Meteor is certified for F-35 than game over for any fighter jets of eastern block. The next-gen Meteor will have Japanese AESA seeker that will make it more deadly in BVR combat. There will zero chance that the Su-57 can survive against Meteor. 
Indian MoD made correct decision not handing over $5B development cost of few brochures of Su-57.


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## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> I think the bump under the wing is instrument bay.
> 
> To be honest, I will reject FGFA as well if I were an Indian.
> 
> I think Su57 is the ultimate form of Su27 series, it's a semi-stealthy endeavour. With the cavity between the engine elevator, the missle will be sucked back towards the weapon bay whenever it's launched.
> 
> It will be a beast in WVR with 30 engine, but it will be taken out by F35A/F22 in BVR.



1)We will not be having a war with the west so competing with f-22/f-35 is not a logical proposition.
The main thing is to relatively keep a deterrent against china(we cant win an outright war with china) and be capable of inflicting a damage that deters chinese from attacking.

2)Sure su-57 wont be as good as f-35 or f-22 simply because of funding.....the development cost of both these aircrafts is many times more,f-35 is fitted with a 3 rd generation aesa by the company that is best in field,they have the most experience in stealth,the helmet of f-35 itself is light years ahead of anything else adversaries have at the moment and not to forget about the weapons(cumulative european and american).

3)But su-57 is a stepping stone for us....its good enough for being one of the best in asian region(well j-20 may be more stealthy but in engines,radars and flight profile it may lag a bit behind).

4)Indians have nothing even comparable to su-57 that we can realistically get,u are right in saying its foolish to rely on HAL for designing and making a 5 th generation fighter in that meagre and paltry R&D budget.The amount of money sanctioned is just in millions while 5 th generation requires billions and still it dosent guarantee to be any good against the opposition.

5)Chinese just made hundreds of copies (with their own instruments and sensors) in j series and learnt for decades before venturing out to make j-10,20,31 etc so the path is like this only.First get accustomed to be able to copy and then try to innovate and make something unique.Thats why its the best thing that we acquire more su-30 (with upgraded irbis-e pesa and,rwr and maws),make more tejas mk1a,2 in numbers (200-300) and just work on the sensors,engine and radar for the 5 generation.Post 2030-35 when we have sufficiently developed tech for everything,we can plan AMCA.

6)If we try to get everything it will be a mantainance nightmare for the forces with 10 different jets with different spares and simulators and weapons.

7)People who laugh at the pitfalls of the f-35 dont realize that americans plan to get 2300 of them.They are not making a dog fighting plane but a network centric warfare will be fought where they will sends 100's of planes to just flatten out the opposition.The days of dog fighting are over.

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## polanski

*Overview*

A fifth-generation fighter jet combines new developments such as thrust vectoring, composite materials, supercruise, stealth technology, advanced radar and sensors, and integrated avionics to improve pilot situational awareness significantly.






Su-57 (Source The Sputniknews)
Currently, Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, F-22 Raptor and the Chengdu J-20 are to be considered operational 5th generation fighter jet.

*Key Points*


Stealth remains an essential attribute of high-intensity conflict
Su-57 may not be a real fifth-generation fighter jet
Improved air-to-air missiles will be an essential factor in keeping the fifth-gen fighter competitive
Legacy unstealthy fighters in an A2/AD IADS environment will not sustain in a modern warfare
The Su-57 first flew in 2010 and had experienced considerable trouble during its development period. Things got so bad that the Indian Air Force, a frequent buyer of Russian military hardware and partner in the program, wants to bail on the project.

Russia claims that it will soon join the very exclusive stealth club with the imminent arrival of its fifth-generation fighter, the Su-57. Russia has placed 12 firm order of Su-57 fighter jet.

*Stealth Characteristics*

Stealth technology allows a pilot to shoot at another aircraft without the enemy having the ability to shoot back because they cannot see them. Stealth refers to the inability of the enemy to detect the aircraft, commonly by radar. The smaller the radar cross-section of an aircraft, the more difficult it is to detect and the stealthier it is considered to be. Stealth does not mean invisible though; stealth means less visible from a certain distance of an adversary’s aircraft.





Su-57 and Su-35 Side by Side (Source The Drive)
In the year 2010_, _Sukhoi Design Bureau added some exterior stealth characteristics–having a fuselage made of composite materials coated in radar absorbent paint.

From the design point of view, Su-57 has more extensive radar cross section comparing with another operational fifth-generation fighter jet. The Su-57 will match or compete the low-observation parameters of fifth-gen aircraft. Regarding visibility, Su-57 may out-matched any current fourth-generation fighter jet.

The stealth technology of Su-57 is more of advertising technology. The aircraft is still visible to a certain extent, but modern Gallium Nitride technology based AESA radar such as Raven ES-05.

*Compromised Design*

You would not generally want to have a separate canopy break in a production stealth airframe, but you do see canopy break on a Su-57. Sukhoi used puttied fasteners on the vortex flap as a general lack of design finesse outside the airframe.






The problem is that the tunnel between is almost purely vertical which means that, unless you are operating exclusively over a friendly environment, anything looking up is going to get a multipath return that is too much of an inherent design compromise to the airframe configuration to be ameliorated.






Take a closer look at the jet’s technical drawings to be sure; there is not enough serpentine in the inlet trunking to mask the engine face, even with the very long visible ducts. By itself, this is a disaster design concept to be called a stealth aircraft.






The camouflage on the Su-57 looks like paint. It’s crudely applied in some areas, and it’s very diversity of colour patterning means it’s going to be subject to divergent thermal as well as RF behaviours, due to the size of pigment balls. The engine exhaust is also visible similar to the Su-35 which make it visible by a modern IRST.

*Advanced Handling Characteristics*

According to Michael Kofman, a senior research scientist at the think tank CAN, Su-57 will be a step above a fourth-generation aircraft – regarding how manoeuvrable it is, Russian aircraft are always quite capable, very manoeuvrable. However, the Su-57 does not pose any severe threat to other fifth-generation fighter jets with superior electronics, situational awareness, and stealth capability.

*Supercruise Capability*

The Supercruise is the ability to cruise at supersonic speeds without using engine afterburners. At the core of every plane is the engine – it is all about the engine.

The Saturn/Lyulka 117/AL-41F1 engine that has powered Su-57 has many maintenance issues. Indian Air Force (IAF) always complaint about Russian engines. Russian engines have been smoky and require many hours of maintenance. Su-57 has not designed modular aircraft for an engine to be replaced quickly without attention from a skilled engineer from MRO facilities.

While writing this article, Su-57 was not capable of supercruise. Su-57 used its afterburner when required.

*Advanced Radar and Sensor*

Su-57 does not house a single AESA radar and sensor to support the pilot rather than a single radar installed on its nose cone; there’s an L-band active phased antenna array housed in it. There are two more arrays on either side of the cockpit and an additional pair on the wings. Russian media claim these sensors allow the Su-57 to detect as many as 60 targets 400 km away. The Su-57 is yet to be capable of integrating with off-board and onboard sensors, datalinks and digital information systems.

For some time, the Su-57 program had been criticised as being the same engine, radar, avionics as the Su-35, but installed in a stealthy-looking airframe.

*Digital Data presentation*

Gallium Nitride (GaN) is a new semiconductor compound that can amplify higher power radio frequency signals than GaAs at microwave frequencies. It is expected to have more significant output power compared to GaAs; theoretically, if GaAs module can transmit 10 watts, a GaN sibling module can transmit 50 watts.

The manufacturer of Radar, NIIP product brochure mentions GaAs T/R modules being used for Su-57’s primary radar. Su-57 is yet to be proved any off-board digital data exchange and sharing with other aircraft.

*Armament*

All stealth fighters are still vulnerable to infrared guided missiles. Both Russian and Western Fighter jets have IRST. The Russian Aircraft carry more armament than western Aircraft. In WVR combat, Su-57 has a slight edge over Western Fighter Jet, but in a BVR combat, the very stealthy fighter has the upper hand and capable of engaging enemy fighter jet before it can detect another stealth fighter.

The greater range of the Russian K-77M may be an advantage, but not against a low-observable stealth fighter, but the NATO already fielded superior ramjet-powered Meteor BVR air-to-air missile that can defeat low observable aircraft. Su-57 will operate closer to ground-based positions, which may be acceptable given Russia’s security posture and supported air defence systems such as S-400.

*Conclusion*

The Janes 360 reported citing Indian National Security Advisor Ajit Doval that Indian Air Force is pulling out of 11 years old collaboration of fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia. The Indian Air Force always questioned the technological capabilities of Su-57 or PAK FA fighter jets especially stealth and radar capability.

The Su-57 is a work in progress, its final capabilities unclear. In other words, said one Russian aerospace analyst, “It looked like a next-generation aircraft, but below the surface, it was less than what it appeared.”

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## randomradio

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1097857642452656128

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## hembo

*New Russian Su-57 Stealth Fighter Crashes During Tests*

3 hours ago



topwar.ru

A Russian fifth-generation stealth fighter jet has crashed during tests in the country’s Far East, news agencies reported Tuesday.

The incident occurred days before Russia’s Aerospace Forces were due to receive their first serial-produced Sukhoi Su-57 fighter jet. Its developer Sukhoi plans to deliver a total of 67 fifth-generation Su-57s to the Russian Aerospace Forces by 2028.

“The Su-57 crashed during a test flight 111 kilometers from its home airfield,” Russia’s state-controlled United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) said as quoted by the state-run RIA Novosti news agency.

Its civilian pilot catapulted and survived the crash in the Khabarovsk region, Interfax cited an unnamed source as saying.

The Su-57 — also called the T-50 and PAK FA during development — has been billed as Russia’s answer to the U.S. F-22 Raptor stealth fighter.

Russia has combat-tested the Sukhoi Su-57 in Syria and showcased it at military parades. The aircraft had been tested at least twice in Syria, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces, said last week.

An unnamed Russian military official told RIA Novosti that pilot error or a technical malfunction are believed to have caused the Su-57 crash.


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## Deino

hembo said:


> ...
> An unnamed Russian military official told RIA Novosti that pilot error or a technical malfunction are believed to have caused the Su-57 crash.




A failure in the FCS


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## polanski

The Russian Su-57 is not ready to fly, says Russian defense expert: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...not-ready-to-fly-says-russian-defense-expert/


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## Agnihotra

I wish we cancelled this Program after getting at least one Su-57 in our hand so that we can gain knowledge and Technology with RE worth money that we spent on this project.

Like Turks we made a huge mistake.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

polanski said:


> The Russian Su-57 is not ready to fly, says Russian defense expert: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...not-ready-to-fly-says-russian-defense-expert/



A one off crash is not indicative of design failure. The plane has been tested thousands of hours with no problem and entered serial production. Heck, even F-22 and F-35 crashed.


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## polanski

Russia's last attempt to convince buddy China. Russia requests China to bail out Su-57 (PAK-FA) project: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/02/20/su-57/


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## CONNAN

there is no evidence to suggest that Russia’s radar absorbant coatings are as functional as the coating applied to American stealth aircraft F22. America has a decades-long head start in research and development on this front. NPO Saturn I_zdeliye_ 117 engines fail to meet the generally accepted guidelines for a fighter to qualify as a fifth-generation platform in short they cannot maintain super cruse for sustained periods. combined with the the design is still crude which is the final nail in the coffin for indian funds


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## Deino

polanski said:


> Russia's last attempt to convince buddy China. Russia requests China to bail out Su-57 (PAK-FA) project: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/02/20/su-57/




Forget that ... simply a piece of BS!


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## no smoking

CONNAN said:


> there is no evidence to suggest that Russia’s radar absorbant coatings are as functional as the coating applied to American stealth aircraft F22. America has a decades-long head start in research and development on this front.




1. stealth material is only affecting 10% of the stealthy;
2. Su-57 is designed to fight in the battle against F-22 and F-35, not winning a stealthy competition. 2 different thing.




CONNAN said:


> NPO Saturn I_zdeliye_ 117 engines fail to meet the generally accepted guidelines for a fighter to qualify as a fifth-generation platform in short they cannot maintain super cruse for sustained periods.



117 engine is not the target engine, it is only interim. 



CONNAN said:


> combined with the the design is still crude which is the final nail in the coffin for indian funds


It is too early to tell.
The availability of Indian funds is depending on the progress of Chinese J-20 and European 5g plane program.


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## CONNAN

no smoking said:


> 1. stealth material is only affecting 10% of the stealthy;
> 2. Su-57 is designed to fight in the battle against F-22 and F-35, not winning a stealthy competition. 2 different thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 117 engine is not the target engine, it is only interim.
> 
> 
> It is too early to tell.
> The availability of Indian funds is depending on the progress of Chinese J-20 and European 5g plane program.



In my opinion F22 is the bench mark for 5 generation and Su57 is no way near close to it in its present from in any aspect.
as far as availability of fund Russian's are not even gonna get a penny *for now.
*


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## no smoking

CONNAN said:


> In my opinion F22 is the bench mark for 5 generation and Su57 is no way near close to it in its present from in any aspect.



F22 is the benchmark for 5 generation fighter jet, but it doesn't mean that Su-57 can't give her a decent fight in the war even though Su-57 may not be able to match F-22 in most of areas.

You have to realise that there is one big difference between Su-57 and F-22: F-22 was designed to break Soviet air-defense network INDEPENTLY while Su-57 was designed to fight with SUPPORT of air defense system.



CONNAN said:


> as far as availability of fund Russian's are not even gonna get a penny *for now.*



Yes for now.


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## CONNAN

no smoking said:


> *Su-57 was designed to fight with SUPPORT of air defense system.*



that makes it's Role as a point defense fighter rather than air dominance fighter which is one of the specs of a true 5th Gen. Mig 31 or current SU series can fulfill that role any decent 4+gen will do that job


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## polanski

Russia postponed delivery of Su-57 to Russian Aerospace Force (VKS) until 2025: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...57-to-russian-aerospace-force-vks-until-2025/


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

polanski said:


> Russia postponed delivery of Su-57 to Russian Aerospace Force (VKS) until 2025: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...57-to-russian-aerospace-force-vks-until-2025/



This refers to the version with the new engine. The current serially produced version has Su-35S engines.


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## polanski

Naming of Su-57: Sukhoi thought Su-57 could bring luck to the design bureau: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...-behind-russias-5th-generation-fighters-name/


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