# The PAF is set to receive a batch of Egyptian Air Force Mirage-Vs



## Amavous

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378
and this old tweet from Jan 2019


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294
Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs











*Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
*Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
*Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
*Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built

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## TOPGUN

Interesting news, lets see what comes out of it.

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## Areesh

Facepalm

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## Imran Khan

what a stupidity



Areesh said:


> Facepalm


its say lakh di lanat .

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## loanranger

mirage 2000s?


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## maverick1977

Spare parts once all mirages are phased out

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## Pakistani Aircraft

This induction is for spare parts mainly from my understanding of the tweet.

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## Khanivore

loanranger said:


> mirage 2000s?


The 75 Mirage 5s.

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## Khafee

Mirage V - again?

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## The Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> what a stupidity
> 
> 
> its say lakh di lanat .



Do you know how this platform performed in last Surprise for India? Let's not just carried away being unaware of situation. In my opinion, addition as such is firstly not going to cost us much & secondly, will add more punch while thirdly serving the concern of being short in numbers. It is like adding more punch to the existing fleet. 

And by the way, I am seeing two way traffic in this regard. @Khafee

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## Khanivore

Khafee said:


> Mirage V - again?


Yes. Need them for spares as spares don't come cheap from Dassault.

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## SABRE

Areesh said:


> Facepalm



At one end we are trying to retire Mirage V fleet, on the other we are getting used ones from the third party. Indeed, Facepalm. I guess PAF has not yet integrated the JF-17 into nuclear and naval strike role. PS, anything short of Mirage-2000 is a waste of resources on so many levels.

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> Mirage V - again?



Don't you see it in a way like still better addition adding numbers & parts till we have, JF-17 taking in dedicated role.

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## Amavous

Most of them will be used as spares. Mirage V may not be the cutting edge technology but they add good capability and numbers to PAF and numbers are important till we have our own aircraft to fill the gap.

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## Pakistani Aircraft

Imran Khan said:


> we are waiting to see last mirage of PAF or ye chutiyee dunya bher se kabar ka maal khareed rahy hain . salo jf-17 bana lo 4 new itni takleef hai to .



It is because Pakistan has not inducted enough JF-17s to date that PAF is unable to phase out Mirages any time sooner.

Production of 100 JF-17 Thunders in 12-years is too slow.

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## Khafee

@Signalian Comments?

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## The Eagle

Pakistani Aircraft said:


> It is because Pakistan has not inducted enough JF-17s to date that PAF is unable to phase out Mirages any time sooner.
> 
> Production of 100 JF-17 Thunders in 12-years is too slow.



To keep them (Mirages) in order, we need spares as well & seeing France in Indian camp; it is good to prepare for the worst before it hits. After all, this trade will benefit us.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378


Yr we already want to retire them. Ab phr lerahe ho


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## Champion_Usmani

The Eagle said:


> Don't you see it in a way like still better addition adding numbers & parts till we have, JF-17 taking in dedicated role.


But there were news that we were in talks about Mirage 2000s from Qatar and UAE, I mean Mirage 5 and 3 are very old aircrafts, how long will we continue with them?

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## Imran Khan

loanranger said:


> mirage 2000s?


43 years old mirage-5 ka teer mara hai PAF ne

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## Pakistani Fighter

The Eagle said:


> Do you know how this platform performed in last Surprise for India? Let's not just carried away being unaware of situation. In my opinion, addition as such is firstly not going to cost us much & secondly, will add more punch while thirdly serving the concern of being short in numbers. It is like adding more punch to the existing fleet.
> 
> And by the way, I am seeing two way traffic in this regard. @Khafee


Should had gone for Mirage 2000s

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> Mirage V - again?


THEY WILL do it until last mirage and f-16 on planet earth

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## Sabretooth

Come on people! why so much hate for the Mirages? They ain't pretty but are sure ruggedly handsome. 
Look at them this way; they never failed to deliver.

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## Maxpane

hm for spare parts . mirages arent going anywhere soon

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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> Do you know how this platform performed in last Surprise for India? Let's not just carried away being unaware of situation. In my opinion, addition as such is firstly not going to cost us much & secondly, will add more punch while thirdly serving the concern of being short in numbers. It is like adding more punch to the existing fleet.
> 
> And by the way, I am seeing two way traffic in this regard. @Khafee


i disagree they are falling from sky like rocks . just check sir lately they have too many crashed .


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## Jinn Baba

From the tweet it seems most will be used as spares. So this isn't a new induction, more like a spares purchase.

Closely, the Mirage arent getting replaced overnight, so what's wrong with keeping them air worthy until they can be replaced?

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## Pakistani Aircraft

The Eagle said:


> To keep them (Mirages) in order, we need spares as well & seeing France in Indian camp; it is good to prepare for the worst before it hits. After all, this trade will benefit us.



Also, maybe Egypt can pay for a batch of JF-17s with Mirages.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378


Paf already tested secret weapon on JF 17. Raad can be integerated on JF 17 blk III


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## Imran Khan

Jinn Baba said:


> From the tweet it seems most will be used as spares. So this isn't a new induction, more like a spares purchase.
> 
> Closely, the Mirage arent getting replaced overnight, so what's wrong with keeping them air worthy until they can be replaced?


the situation is painful as we are going to make jf17 block 3 man a way more advance fighter jet still looking for scrap

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## BHarwana

The Eagle said:


> Don't you see it in a way like still better addition adding numbers & parts till we have, JF-17 taking in dedicated role.


France has shut Mirage production and we need to cannibal them for parts this is important deal now.

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## Muhammad Omar

Why aren't we replacing 5 decades old Mirages with planes like J-10 ??

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## Death Professor

Probably for spare parts, or for just shear increase of numbers.


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## Pakistani Aircraft

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Yr we already want to retire them. Ab phr lerahe ho



Let's say we retire nearly 200 Mirages from the PAF today or this year, what is PAF going to replace them with today or this year?

The JF-17 Thunder is just not available in big numbers with the PAF at the moment.

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## airomerix

They are being brought dirt cheap. Will give our strike capability some more teeth. Nothing major.

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## 313ghazi

Guys calm down. Whilst they are still active they need spare parts. This is why they buy these second hand models. Especially now that we are doing more patrols, its importants we have plenty of parts available.

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## Pakistani Aircraft

Champion_Usmani said:


> But there were news that we were in talks about Mirage 2000s from Qatar and UAE, I mean Mirage 5 and 3 are very old aircrafts, how long will we continue with them?



Until we have 250-350 JF-17 Thunders.

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## The Eagle

Champion_Usmani said:


> But there were news that we were in talks about Mirage 2000s from Qatar and UAE, I mean Mirage 5 and 3 are very old aircrafts, how long will we continue with them?





Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Should had gone for Mirage 2000s


Not to forget our financial situation as well as that Mirage-2000 window was closed long ago. In fact, UAE upgraded them for their own use & even if we had gone for that class; would cost us more. I see that PAF decided to not to buy instead, invest more in JF-17 while obtain Mirage-Vs like these from Egypt to keep up our Mirage-Vs in the Air till last moment with load of spare in store without any worry. 

This purchase does not reflect that we are buying a platform but rather, fulfilling our needs. Remember that Indian threat still exist and we can't underestimate hence, anything could come so before going empty, it is better to have some till we manage to replace ageing fleet with new birds... Be it JF-17 which needs time and till then, this will help. Shiny gadgets & latest weaponry can be bought only when we have deep pockets & defence budget like adversary and also, people pay Taxes. 

It was satisfactory with Mirages in last retaliation hence, birds will be kept in order till date/time of retirement. We are not someone having the luxury to throw them away like this but have to plan in accordance to our need, resources & threat assessment.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pakistani Aircraft said:


> Let's say we retire nearly 200 Mirages from the PAF today or this year, what is PAF going to replace them with today or this year?
> 
> The JF-17 Thunder is just not available in big numbers with the PAF at the moment.


We can buy them for spare parts. But not for operation

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## LeGenD

SABRE said:


> At one end we are trying to retire Mirage V fleet, on the other we are getting used ones from the third party. Indeed, Facepalm. I guess PAF not yet integrated into its nuclear and naval strike role. PS, anything short of Mirage-2000 is a waste of resources on so many levels.


Look at this matter in this way. Economic situation is not good at present, and it is not cheap to replace every [old] aircraft in the inventory of PAF in a short span.

Secondly, we will have ample spare parts to keep Mirage V jets operational for various ends.

I perceive this as a contingency plan.

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## 313ghazi

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we replacing 5 decades old Mirages with planes like J-10 ??



Money. This was PAF plan during Zardari era, but he looted the country and then Nawaj looted what was left.

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## TOPGUN

Once again the boys and girls club don't seem to get it , living in outer space array bhai its for spares till the damn things are around to fly. Second you have to have a replacement for them before you replace them also on a side note old they maybe old but yet upgraded still a very effective aircraft and PAF showed that in feb to india.

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## Khanivore

Champion_Usmani said:


> But there were news that we were in talks about Mirage 2000s from Qatar and UAE, I mean Mirage 5 and 3 are very old aircrafts, how long will we continue with them?


The Mirage 2000 rumors have been running since the early 2000s.


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## Talon

To all these *experts* here on PDF :
PAF knows better than you and me on how and where to implement its resources.So keep calm.

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## The Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> i disagree they are falling from sky like rocks . just check sir lately they have too many crashed .



Imran consider the circumstances as well. Having such number with cheap cost, will definitely help us to not just to maintain the fleet but also, adding more punch. Economic & support constraints can cause more falls as well as losses hence, it is better to arrange spares/numbers to fulfill our need till we have new Bird to takeover the role. Thunder needs more time & so our small pockets.

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## Khanivore

Question: which platform can carry 10 cluster bombs with fuel tanks for strike role?

Mirage 5: yes
JF-17: no

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## Jinn Baba

Imran Khan said:


> the situation is painful as we are going to make jf17 block 3 man a way more advance fighter jet still looking for scrap



Bhai just look at how many Mirage we still have. Even if full production of Block 3 starts today, it will still take YEARS for these Mirage to be replaced. 

This is just a spares purchase to keep them in the air until they are finally replaced. Dont think of it as anything more.

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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> Imran consider the circumstances as well. Having such number with cheap cost, will definitely help us to not just to maintain the fleet but also, adding more punch. Economic & support constraints can cause more falls as well as losses hence, it is better to arrange spares/numbers to fulfill our need till we have new Bird to takeover the role. Thunder needs more time & so our small pockets.


tbh i am not happy at all with this news sir . nothing can satisfy me . hum log bhikari ban chuky hain



Jinn Baba said:


> Bhai just look at how many Mirage we still have. Even if full production of Block 3 starts today, it will still take YEARS for these Mirage to be replaced.
> 
> This is just a spares purchase to keep them in the air until they are finally replaced. Dont think of it as anything more.


did we stopped production of block2 ? we can rise more sqns and then our own retired mirages can be used as parts

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## ARMalik

Fellows, spares for Mirages III and V have all but *stopped*. Pakistan has no choice but to make deals like these. Again, as some members including myself have mentioned several times here, Mirages are for a *very different and dedicated role *and they are a must. Although these Mirages are more than 50 years old machines, there is nothing in IAF inventory or PAFs that can match the *acceleration/speed of these Mirages *at 2.2 Mach, and *Higher* if the aircraft is descending from 30,000 ft. speeding. The jets go in for *quick, deep strikes, and return*. This is exactly what happened on 27 Feb.

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## Pakistani Fighter

ARMalik said:


> Fellows, spares for Mirages III and V have all but *stopped*. Pakistan has no choice but to make deals like these. Again, as some members including myself have mentioned several times here, Mirages are for a *very different and dedicated role *and they are a must. Although these Mirages are more than 50 years old machines, there is nothing in IAF inventory or PAFs that can match the *acceleration/speed of these Mirages *at 2.2 Mach, and *Higher* if the aircraft is descending from 30,000 ft. speeding. The jets go in for *quick, deep strikes, and return*. This is exactly what happened on 27 Feb.


Doesn't IAF have Mirage 2000s that can match them?

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## Cygnus Black

Great deal! We shouldn't even waste our Forex reserves on these. Just exchange with 5-6 JF-17s.

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## Pakistani Fighter

doorstar said:


> some one joins here in 2011
> makes over 20 posts a day
> yet only has a total of 347
> does that mean he is some kind of multi-ID feku?


What?


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## Imran Khan

ARMalik said:


> Fellows, spares for Mirages III and V have all but *stopped*. Pakistan has no choice but to make deals like these. Again, as some members including myself have mentioned several times here, Mirages are for a *very different and dedicated role *and they are a must. Although these Mirages are more than 50 years old machines, there is nothing in IAF inventory or PAFs that can match the *acceleration/speed of these Mirages *at 2.2 Mach, and *Higher* if the aircraft is descending from 30,000 ft. speeding. The jets go in for *quick, deep strikes, and return*. This is exactly what happened on 27 Feb.


if speed is everything then better we bring back f-104 star fighters


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## Riz

loanranger said:


> mirage 2000s?


No bro.... Mirage - 1995  means mirage v only .

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## ARMalik

Imran Khan said:


> if speed is everything then better we bring back f-104 star fighters



Let's not compare Apples with Melons.

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## Riz

We will upgrade these mirage Vs to the equivalent to indian Rafales..

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## loanranger

Riz said:


> No bro.... Mirage - 1995  means mirage v only .


chalo khair hai was excited for a sec kuch keh lo they served us well on 27 feb....

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## War Thunder

Khafee said:


> Mirage V - again?




Spare paaaarts
Tweeet parh lo koi pura...



Riz said:


> We will upgrade these mirage Vs to the equivalent to indian Rafales..



They already are...

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## Apocalypse

Imran Khan said:


> if speed is everything then better we bring back f-104 star fighters


The Italians retired their Starfighters in 2004. We would've retired them sometime then, had it not been for the US sanctions, as a result of which we were forced to retire them in 1972. Had they been in service till much later, they would've shot down the Indian Foxbats that used to go trisonic over Islamabad.


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## loanranger

IAF Mirage 2000s were the only aircraft that gave us trouble on 27 in ka hal nikalna paray ga....

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## Jinn Baba

Imran Khan said:


> did we stopped production of block2 ? we can rise more sqns and then our own retired mirages can be used as parts



No one seems to know. But:

1) even if Block 2 production is in full swing, we will still be unable to replace all the Mirages for a few years. So would have needed these spares.

2) block 3 seems to be an entirely new aircraft. May be PAF only wants the new aircraft- for the same reasons that you want something new and not same old Mirage. The Mirage is still our primary attack aircraft, may be there are deficiencies in the Block 2 that make is undesirable for the Mirages to be replaced with it, hence why we are waiting for Block 3.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ARMalik said:


> Fellows, spares for Mirages III and V have all but *stopped*. Pakistan has no choice but to make deals like these. Again, as some members including myself have mentioned several times here, Mirages are for a *very different and dedicated role *and they are a must. Although these Mirages are more than 50 years old machines, there is nothing in IAF inventory or PAFs that can match the *acceleration/speed of these Mirages *at 2.2 Mach, and *Higher* if the aircraft is descending from 30,000 ft. speeding. The jets go in for *quick, deep strikes, and return*. This is exactly what happened on 27 Feb.


Now, PAF being PAF I won't be surprised if they have some "interesting" plans with them too....

When the OEM shuts down a production/support ops for a product you're "free" to do what you like with it...

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## BHarwana

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we replacing 5 decades old Mirages with planes like J-10 ??


There are many undeclared weapons which are integrated with Mirage of Pakistan until J-10 are completely integrated according to our ground attack needs you will keep seeing mirages.

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## TOPGUN

BHarwana said:


> There are many undeclared weapons which are integrated with Mirage of Pakistan until J-10 are completely integrated according to our ground attack needs you will keep seeing mirages.



J-10's ?

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## Pakistani Fighter

loanranger said:


> chalo khair hai was excited for a sec kuch keh lo they served us well on 27 feb....


Isin't this better than Mirage strikers?


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## Imran Khan

Jinn Baba said:


> No one seems to know. But:
> 
> 1) even if Block 2 production is in full swing, we will still be unable to replace all the Mirages for a few years. So would have needed these spares.
> 
> 2) block 3 seems to be an entirely new aircraft. May be PAF only wants the new aircraft- for the same reasons that you want something new and not same old Mirage. The Mirage is still our primary attack aircraft, may be there are deficiencies in the Block 2 that make is undesirable for the Mirages to be replaced with it, hence why we are waiting for Block 3.


ohh bhai if we replace one sqn with thunders we have 18-24 mirages for cannibalizing .


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## Myth_buster_1

SABRE said:


> At one end we are trying to retire Mirage V fleet, on the other we are getting used ones from the third party. Indeed, Facepalm. I guess PAF not yet integrated JF-17 into its nuclear and naval strike role. PS, anything short of Mirage-2000 is a waste of resources on so many levels.


PAF has mastered Mirage-III and V, they will utilize even the last reaming screws and nuts. ex egyptian Mirages will be used as spares until JF-17 replaces all the old junk.

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## PakShaheen79

Wise decision considering that Dassault has stopped production of their spare and we are biggest operator of IIIs and Vs left in the world. Replacement is going to take some time. PAF is investing not only money on Block-III but time as well. So far we have planned to induct 63 Block-III only. In such circumstances, we need our Deltas to be operational. PAC know this plane inside out and that's a very valuable thing. With integration of strike elements through ROSE program, platform still holds some promise to deliver provided if used tactfully which is exactly what PAF achieved on Feb. 27. Rembmer, no aircraft alone fight in combat. It is combination of different systems working in synergy within the battlefield which produced the results. This deal is just to keep the platform flying carrying H2/H4 like smart weapons. PAF knows better when to put these on front lines to ensure a successful hit against enemy targets while remaining away from harm. So, take a chill pill. These are not being acquired to form our front line squadrons.

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## Hassan Guy

PAF and PAC need to pull off an Iran and reverse engineer this plane

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## Riz

loanranger said:


> chalo khair hai was excited for a sec kuch keh lo they served us well on 27 feb....


Joke apart.... Our Mirage v are the one who surprised IAF on 27 feb... And hit the targets with pin point accuracy

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## SSGcommandoPAK

-How many ?
-At what price ?
-Are these Mirages more advance than our Mirage 5 aircrafts ?


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## Amavous

Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs










*Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
*Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
*Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
*Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built

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## BHarwana

TOPGUN said:


> J-10's ?


J-10 is good platform but for it to be in PAF we need it customize according to our needs. Chinese need for J-10 is different and Pakistani need is different. Now there are lot of JF-17 export orders in Pipeline. 2019 will see some JF-17 induction but as soon as block 3 is revealed the production will facilitate export orders and J-10 might see integration in that time for Pakistan making it come along Rafale jets and in the mean while we might use Egyptian jets to refresh our own Mirages. Mirage is good to counter Indian S-400 aquisition as it had capacity to carry more air to ground weapons so we will keep seeing them for a while.

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> Don't you see it in a way like still better addition adding numbers & parts till we have, JF-17 taking in dedicated role.


Getting the M2K would have been better, The Egyptians and then the French ones.

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## Pakistani Fighter

loanranger said:


> IAF Mirage 2000s were the only aircraft that gave us trouble on 27 in ka hal nikalna paray ga....


I was told here in pdf that they ran away


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## Tps43

Khafee said:


> Mirage V - again?


Told ya



Khafee said:


> @Signalian Comments?


They can replace non rose mirages

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> ohh bhai if we replace one sqn with thunders we have 18-24 mirages for cannibalizing .


After all mirage V and 3 in paf, paf would ask Israel to provide Neshers and Kafir for cannibalizing.

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## litman

with the current economic condition of the country we simply cant induct any jet in the air force so we are forced to stick with the older jets and in order to keep them flying we need spares. the only new air craft that will be inducted in paf will be the jft block 3 and it will replace the f7s first and then the remaining mirages. our pockets cant afford a high tech expansive air craft. so this is our only option. may be we get some second hand falcons as well. we should be really thankful to our great leaders like nawaz and zardari who have brought us to the edge of default which indirectly has its effect on our armed forces. our pilots are forced to fly this 50 year old machine whose crash rate is increasing.


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## jupiter2007

Have we tested mirage iii/V with more powerful engine?


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## Evora

Guys can we change mirage engine with ws 13 or rd93?

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> Getting the M2K would have been better, The Egyptians and then the French ones.



I had my interest as well but on other hand, will have to work as planned. Mirage-2000 cost V/s Mirage-Vs (this purchase). There are other circumstances in regard to our efforts/money in Block-III, maintaining the rest of Fleet including different platforms as compare to our economic condition.

I wished for Mirage-2000 but the same will remain personal in this situation whereby, broader aspects suggests as what PAF did as above. You are also well aware of situation. What if this plan verifies that Mirage role will be replaced with another Bird and till then, it is plausible to invest on Vs (cheap cost) because, PAF is not going for Mirage-2000. I can only assume the way decision has been made in favour of Egypt Mirage-Vs. We will be able to increase Rose Mirages numbers & more spare in store. No more non-Mirages is the possibility as well & that is indeed an upgrade of fleet without spending more.

I can't count on French anymore while on other hand, we don't have the luxury of unlimited resources. The plan seems to be keep the current fleet in best order for flying (by way of cheap cost purchase like this saving money) until, the new Bird take over the role.

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## Riz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I was told here in pdf that they ran away


I can smell an indian from planet pluto... Dont know why mods are so lazy..

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> Mirage V - again?


I still can't tell, are you Arab or Pakistani? I have seen you speaking transliterated Urdu here but still unsure.


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## Tps43

Philip the Arab said:


> I still can't tell, are you Arab or Pakistani? I have seen you speaking transliterated Urdu here but still unsure.


He is serving arab solider

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## ssethii

will be on par with jf-17 with new avionics.

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## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> After all mirage V and 3 in paf, paf would ask Israel to provide Neshers and Kafir for cannibalizing.


no then PAF will go latin America for ex mirages . we will collect from 5 continents these mirages

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## Pakistani Fighter

Riz said:


> I can smell an indian from planet pluto... Dont know why mods are so lazy..


So you are calling me Indian?


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## Stealth

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we replacing 5 decades old Mirages with planes like J-10 ??



Because Air force is saving money for the second 5th Gen fighter which is still under production called J-31. Pakistan shows strong interest back in 2016/17 unfortunately the platform is still UD that is the reason PAF went for these just for the balancing more like a spare purchase

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## Pakistani Fighter

The Eagle said:


> I had my interest as well but on other hand, will have to work as planned. Mirage-2000 cost V/s Mirage-Vs (this purchase). There are other circumstances in regard to our efforts/money in Block-III, maintaining the rest of Fleet including different platforms as compare to our economic condition.
> 
> I wished for Mirage-2000 but the same will remain personal in this situation whereby, broader aspects suggests as what PAF did as above. You are also well aware of situation. What if this plan verifies that Mirage role will be replaced with another Bird and till then, it is plausible to invest on Vs (cheap cost) because, PAF is not going for Mirage-2000. I can only assume the way decision has been made in favour of Egypt Mirage-Vs. We will be able to increase Rose Mirages numbers & more spare in store. No more non-Mirages is the possibility as well & that is indeed an upgrade of fleet without spending more.
> 
> I can't count on French anymore while on other hand, we don't have the luxury of unlimited resources. The plan seems to be keep the current fleet in best order for flying (by way of cheap cost purchase like this saving money) until, the new Bird take over the role.


So we are buying about 75 in number?



Stealth said:


> Because Air force is saving money for the second 5th Gen fighter which is still under production called J-31. Pakistan shows strong interest back in 2016/17 unfortunately the platform is still UD that is the reason PAF went for these just for the balancing more like a spare purchase


Project AZM=J 31?


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## bananarepublic

Stealth said:


> Because Air force is saving money for the second 5th Gen fighter which is still under production called J-31. Pakistan shows strong interest back in 2016/17 unfortunately the platform is still UD that is the reason PAF went for these just for the balancing more like a spare purchase



I thought they were going with Turkish 5th gen as second bird ??
Did they change their mind or I am I'll informed



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So we are buying about 75 in number?
> 
> 
> Project AZM=J 31?



Project AZM ≠J31

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## Hassannn85

TOPGUN said:


> Interesting news, lets see what comes out of it.


Nice pun!


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## TOPGUN

Hassannn85 said:


> Nice pun!



Nice pun ??


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## Windjammer

The Mirages being acquired from Egypt is a worthy package.
They were upgraded to ''Horus'' a decade earlier including Night Strike Capability.
We got them for Peanuts, in the strike role, the Mirages are very versatile and will always be escorted by JF-17s or F-16s.

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## waqasmwi

Khanivore said:


> Question: which platform can carry 10 cluster bombs with fuel tanks for strike role?
> 
> Mirage 5: yes
> JF-17: no


Yes Mirage 5 still lot better than JF17


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## New World

The Eagle said:


> And by the way, I am seeing *two way traffic* in this regard. @Khafee



is that deal is done or still in paper? 

Aya re Aya, Thunder Aya.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Windjammer said:


> The Mirages being acquired from Egypt is a worthy package.
> They were upgraded to ''Horus'' a decade earlier including Night Strike Capability.
> We got them for Peanuts, in the strike role, the Mirages are very versatile and will always be escorted by JF-17s or F-16s.


What is included in Horus?

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## ARMalik

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Doesn't IAF have Mirage 2000s that can match them?



You are correct, these indian birds do 2.2 Mach comparable to Mirages III and V. IAF has only 41 of these whereas PAF has over 100 Mirages. So numbers and speed does matter for deep strikes.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

PAF already has 112 Thunders in service still we need 150 more to completely replace our old aircraft's,thus we are buying these mirages so we can support our mirage fleet until new thunders roll out to replace them which will obviously take few more years.

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## Gorgin Khan

These are almost on par with our mirage Rose..

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## Pakistani Fighter

ARMalik said:


> You are correct, these indian birds do 2.2 Mach comparable to Mirages III and V. IAF has only 41 of these whereas PAF has over 100 Mirages. So numbers and speed does matter for deep strikes.


But Mirage 2000s can engage too in A2A combat. Dont think our Mirages can


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## Haroon Baloch

PAF love for Mirage V & F16 is unconditional

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## SSGcommandoPAK

WHat would be the estimated price ?
10mn USD per jet ?
Mirage has become the bhutto of PAF!

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## Haroon Baloch

The Eagle said:


> Not to forget our financial situation as well as that Mirage-2000 window was closed long ago. In fact, UAE upgraded them for their own use & even if we had gone for that class; would cost us more. I see that PAF decided to not to buy instead, invest more in JF-17 while obtain Mirage-Vs like these from Egypt to keep up our Mirage-Vs in the Air till last moment with load of spare in store without any worry.
> 
> This purchase does not reflect that we are buying a platform but rather, fulfilling our needs. Remember that Indian threat still exist and we can't underestimate hence, anything could come so before going empty, it is better to have some till we manage to replace ageing fleet with new birds... Be it JF-17 which needs time and till then, this will help. Shiny gadgets & latest weaponry can be bought only when we have deep pockets & defence budget like adversary and also, people pay Taxes.
> 
> It was satisfactory with Mirages in last retaliation hence, birds will be kept in order till date/time of retirement. We are not someone having the luxury to throw them away like this but have to plan in accordance to our need, resources & threat assessment.


Its really a good plan economically but what about the higher rate of crashes that will come with it? We cannot loose our precious pilots.


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## SQ8

To keep the strike force flying since we don’t have a strike replacement jet coming.

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## Imran Khan

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> WHat would be the estimated price ?
> 10mn USD per jet ?
> Mirage has become the bhutto of PAF!


Ohhh bhai kiyoo dara raha hai 1 lakh ka aik hai

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## maxpayne

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we replacing 5 decades old Mirages with planes like J-10 ??


No $$$


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## Amavous

Most probably 36 Mirage V (Horus) which were recently upgraded in 2008. Upgrades include RC400 radar, HMD, mission pods, MAWS & night strike capability.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Oscar said:


> To keep the strike force flying since we don’t have a strike replacement jet coming.


What about this?


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## Tps43

Amavous said:


> Most probably 36 Mirage V (Horus) which were recently upgraded in 2008. Upgrades include RC400 radar, HMD, mission pods, MAWS & night strike capability.


@Khafee

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## Pied Piper

The Mirage purchase is a good short term interim move to ensure that the PAF have adequate number of spares and increase additional numbers of Mirages (due to attrition etc).

Pakistan has an expertise knowledge in handling Mirage aircraft - hence the PAC Mirage rebuild factory.

The Mirage aircraft have a good strike range that has been enhanced by the SMART weapons it is qualified to deliver.

The recent air Skirmishes and locked on targets with the IAF - showed how effective this aircraft had operated and penetrated IAF air defences etc.

The PAF will retire these aircraft in due course. However, due to financial constraints this can hamper early replacements.

These aircraft (operational ones) need to get internal upgrade by PAC to ensure their lethality (on the cheap). It will take a while before they can be replaced by JF-17S in the long run.

The PAF need to increase its size and numbers - to ensure that the IAF is unable to achieve air supremacy.

Please note the PAF possess approximately 180 Mirage 3/5 aircraft - hence it will take time to replace. Pakistan can upgrade these internally and ensure that it will give it extra numbers to penetrate enemy air defences.

The PAF needs yo increase its combat squadrons - hence can do with these Cost-effective Mirages.

Also the IAF has a large number of comparable age type aircraft, such as the following :

200+ MiG-21 Bison (upgrade with 4 generation Israeli technology - hence a potent aircraft when flown with better trained pilots and better airforce tactics).

130+ SEPECAT Jaguars

50+ Mig-27 Floggers

Etc.

These above IAF aircraft are comparable in age/era if the Mirage 5 aircraft.

The PAF should increase its numbers - whether its second hand Mirages, F-16s, and even J-7s.....until it has an increase in squadrons. These should be eventually replaced by more newer and advance models of JF-17's and other new aircraft.

Remember these aircraft will be operating in a network-centric environment. The support of AWACS / Jammers / BVR capable aircraft.. I.e..shoot and scoot tactics. It will also put pressure on the enemy airforces in the number of aircrafts they have to deal with.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Imran Khan said:


> Ohhh bhai kiyoo dara raha hai 1 lakh ka aik hai





Imran Khan said:


> Ohhh bhai kiyoo dara raha hai 1 lakh ka aik hai


aik lakh nahi aik crore dollar ka aik hai !

Dreaming of SU-35 , Rafale, J-10C and getting second hand Mirage 5s at the end, SAD LIFE!

Btw Egyptian Air force also operates F-16s

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## Windjammer

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What is included in Horus?



New RC400 radar, Mission pods, HMD, MAWS and Night Strike.

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## ziaulislam

Simply shows that mirages like jauguars will be here till 2030 albeit just 3-4 squardons at best

These will probably support the mirages ROSE till new generation aircraft or ample jf17 comes on line 

My guess is that f7pg and non rose mirages will go first 
Even PGs have came near to end of life(2025)

Mirages it self goes through complete rebuild 

I doubt the upgrade vs non upgrades even matter


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> To keep the strike force flying since we don’t have a strike replacement jet coming.


And the addition of at least one squadron.

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## Stealth

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So we are buying about 75 in number?
> 
> 
> Project AZM=J 31?



Might be... I guess there is nothing on ground about AZM more like J-31


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Windjammer said:


> And the addition of at least one squadron.


only one squadron? PAF could have asked for 1-2 squadron of JF17's from China on war footing.


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## YeBeWarned

Come on guys Paf has not given us any reason to doubt their decisions , it might be for spare parts and replace some of the mirages as well . If they are coming at cheap price it's not a big deal , don't forget the role of mirages in recent skirmishes both India and Pakistan used their mirages for strikes .

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## SSGPA1

The Eagle said:


> Do you know how this platform performed in last Surprise for India? Let's not just carried away being unaware of situation. In my opinion, addition as such is firstly not going to cost us much & secondly, will add more punch while thirdly serving the concern of being short in numbers. It is like adding more punch to the existing fleet.
> 
> And by the way, I am seeing two way traffic in this regard. @Khafee


Their only use should be to get spare parts. We need Mirage 2K from ME while we work on Thunder block III. Please don’t come back with usual ‘you don’t know’ response because I know

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## Windjammer

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> only one squadron? PAF could have asked for 1-2 squadron of JF17's from China on war footing.


Majority of the aircraft will be used as a spare source to maintain the current fleet while it's expected to make one squadron operational.....The Mirages are ideal for high speed strikes where as the JF-17 will escort them.

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## SQ8

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about this?


It’s a multirole platform but the Mirages give us a very stable bombing platform due to delta’s wing loading at lower altitudes

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## Maxpane

Amavous said:


> Most probably 36 Mirage V (Horus) which were recently upgraded in 2008. Upgrades include RC400 radar, HMD, mission pods, MAWS & night strike capability.


not bad option then

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## Ghost 125

its a good news. lol so many angry kids jumping here nd there

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## Mahmood uz Zaman

PakShaheen79 said:


> Wise decision considering that Dassault has stopped production of their spare and we are biggest operator of IIIs and Vs left in the world. Replacement is going to take some time. PAF is investing not only money on Block-III but time as well. So far we have planned to induct 63 Block-III only. In such circumstances, we need our Deltas to be operational. PAC know this plane inside out and that's a very valuable thing. With integration of strike elements through ROSE program, platform still holds some promise to deliver provided if used tactfully which is exactly what PAF achieved on Feb. 27. Rembmer, no aircraft alone fight in combat. It is combination of different systems working in synergy within the battlefield which produced the results. This deal is just to keep the platform flying carrying H2/H4 like smart weapons. PAF knows better when to put these on front lines to ensure a successful hit against enemy targets while remaining away from harm. So, take a chill pill. These are not being acquired to form our front line squadrons.



Very good decision in this time when War is at your door step . Remember the Mirage III/5 is the PAF’s _sole_ delivery platform for key stand-off weapons (SOW), namely the H-2 and H-4 glide-bombs (which are derived from the Denel Dynamics Raptor I and Raptor II , ranges of 60 km and 120 km, respectively) and Ra’ad I and Ra’ad II air launched cruise missiles (ALCM), which have ranges of 350 km and 550 km, respectively. The Mirage 5PA3 can also carry the MBDA AM39 Exocet anti-ship missile (AShM). Mirage 5PA3 was the PAF’s only AShW asset as it still operates from the PAF Air Bases as well as in time of war can operates from other sites(roads motorway etc) as Tactical Attack Wing.

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## The Eagle

New World said:


> is that deal is done or still in paper?



Both parties were in talks for a couple of years and now it has been sealed/done. We can expect these birds in upcoming months in PAF colours.



Haroon Baloch said:


> what about the higher rate of crashes that will come with it? We cannot loose our precious pilots.



The issue will be resolved having good spares in store.

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## NHUDA

People are reading too much into this news ... Mirage III/5 aren't going anywhere in near future ... not atleast until 2025

so we need some more for replacing those who fall or to be cannibalized, yes not the best things .. but you gotta do what you gotta do !

During 1967, Pakistan opted to purchase an initial batch of 18 Mirage IIIEPs, 3 Mirage IIIDPs and 3 Mirage IIIRPs from France. Over the course of time, the PAF)inducted large numbers of new and second hand Mirages IIIs and Mirage 5s spanning multiple variants. During 1977, an additional 10 new Mirage IIIRPs were delivered.

*In 1991, because French production of the Mirage III and most spare parts had ceased, Pakistan acquired 50 Australian-built Mirages, which had been retired by the Royal Australian Air Force in 1988. * 
*
A further five incomplete aircraft were also obtained from the RAAF for cannibalized spare parts.*

*Eight of the ex-RAAF Mirages entered service with the PAF immediately, while another 33 were upgraded under ROSE I*

*Ten Lebanese Air Force aircraft were purchased in 2000 and in 2003 13 Mirage IIIEEs were obtained from the Spanish Air Force in the form of 13 Mirage IIIEEs for cannibalized spare parts*

*The PAF then procured surplus Mirage 5F fighters in the late 1990s from the French Air Force in two batches. Around 20 fighters from the first batch were upgraded (ROSE II)

Additionally, there were 14 Mirage 5F fighters from the second batch that were upgraded similarly but with newer systems and designated ROSE III. *

so an Aircraft is better than NO Aircraft ... I hope we replace these ASAP, but it is better to have them properly maintained by the time they are in the arsenal rather thn slaughtering Black sheep everytime they fly.

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## Zee-shaun

Majority will be canabized for spares I assume


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## Mav3rick

The Eagle said:


> Both parties were in talks for a couple of years and now it has been sealed/done. We can expect these birds in upcoming months in PAF colours.



Yupppeeeee.....I'm so excited!!!! Another lot of obsolete Jets; Can't wait to put these up against IAF Rafale.

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## pkd

Why not place order for valeryn steel and Dragon glass as well to fight the white walkers and the Night king??



On a serious note these 36 Mirages will spare the JF17's 7 weapon station from ground munition duties. After induction of these horus Mirages, each JF17 would have the luxury to carry 6 A2A missile, 2 PL10, 2 SD-10s, 2 PL15s and a ECM jamming pod in the center.




Windjammer said:


> New RC400 radar, Mission pods, HMD, MAWS and Night Strike.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Why not replace few squadrons of F-7 and keep rest as spares?


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## airomerix

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> Why not replace few squadrons of F-7 and keep rest as spares?



It is being done already.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> To keep the strike force flying since we don’t have a strike replacement jet coming.


I suspect they'll gradually shift the conventional SOW stuff over to the JF-17 and lower the stress on the Mirages by honing it for strategic ops only. In this sense, a sale to Azerbaijan would be a big deal as that would mean getting a third-party to help foot the bill of integrating marquee SOWs, like the SOM ALCM and HGK, to the JF-17 so that gets a very strong conventional strike capability.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

airomerix said:


> It is being done already.


I mean with the Egyptian Mirages !


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## airomerix

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> I mean with the Egyptian Mirages !


Roles differ. 

Mirages specialize in strike. F-7P's are point defense or air superiority.


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## SSGcommandoPAK

airomerix said:


> Roles differ.
> 
> Mirages specialize in strike. F-7P's are point defense or air superiority.


Yeah I know but F-7 are almost dead, they would only end up falling from the sky while mirages are old but still okay for the next few years,I am trying to say replace F-7 squadrons fast before more crashes.


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## SQ8

Quwa said:


> I suspect they'll gradually shift the conventional SOW stuff over to the JF-17 and lower the stress on the Mirages by honing it for strategic ops only. In this sense, a sale to Azerbaijan would be a big deal as that would mean getting a third-party to help foot the bill of integrating marquee SOWs, like the SOM ALCM and HGK, to the JF-17 so that gets a very strong conventional strike capability.


Our greatest detriment has, is and will for the foreseeable future - funds.

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## syed_yusuf

i think 23 upgraded mirage 5 Horus of EAF will see a squadron inducted in PAF

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## araz

Khafee said:


> Getting the M2K would have been better, The Egyptians and then the French ones.


 The French wont sell.
A


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## ZAC1

Khafee said:


> Getting the M2K would have been better, The Egyptians and then the French ones.


COAS were in talks for m2k...?


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## ziaulislam

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> Why not replace few squadrons of F-7 and keep rest as spares?


All f7 have been retired with just 2-3 sq of PGs version left

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## Sine Nomine

*
The Egyptian Horus program

The modernization of the Mirage 5SDE tactical fighters around 2010
















*
Sagem (Safran) proposes modernization solutions incorporating the best current technologies to upgrade the operational capabilities of the world’s combat aircraft to the state of the art.

In addition to complete avionics overhauls as part of combat aircraft upgrade programs, Sagem’s modernization capabilities also encompass inertial navigation equipment, visible/infrared optronics, and onboard and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively).The cockpit was modernized with a new head-up display (HUD), "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) controls, new multi-function displays (MFD) and radar altimeter and a Sagem nav/attack system. New navigation systems, including an inertial navigation system and GPS system, were also installed. Defensive systems upgrades consisted of a new radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite and counter-measure dispensing system, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar.*























*

The company is retrofitting 23 Egyptian Mirage 5s in the Horus program. 
*









*

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## Maxpane

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> *The Egyptian Horus program
> 
> The modernization of the Mirage 5SDE tactical fighters around 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Sagem (Safran) proposes modernization solutions incorporating the best current technologies to upgrade the operational capabilities of the world’s combat aircraft to the state of the art.
> 
> In addition to complete avionics overhauls as part of combat aircraft upgrade programs, Sagem’s modernization capabilities also encompass inertial navigation equipment, visible/infrared optronics, and onboard and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively).The cockpit was modernized with a new head-up display (HUD), "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) controls, new multi-function displays (MFD) and radar altimeter and a Sagem nav/attack system. New navigation systems, including an inertial navigation system and GPS system, were also installed. Defensive systems upgrades consisted of a new radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite and counter-measure dispensing system, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> The company is retrofitting 23 Egyptian Mirage 5s in the Horus program.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


not bad deal

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## Trailer23

So how many of them (again) in total...?

Once we get the figure what the PAF have paid for 'em, only then can we pass judgement if they're bang for the buck (even for spares).

If this deal was in the pipline for the past couple of years, the value must have depreciated each year.

So we got these V's from Egypt. I'm not even going pretend that the Egyptian walked away with pocket change for these jets. Only time will tell what _they_ got out of this deal...


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## SSGcommandoPAK

ziaulislam said:


> All f7 have been retired with just 2-3 sq of PGs version left


Thanks for the correction and I suppose we would keep those 2-3 F-7pg squadrons for another 5 years ?


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## Taimur Khurram

ziaulislam said:


> All f7 have been retired with just 2-3 sq of PGs version left



Last time I checked we had 139. I highly doubt they all got replaced/retired that quick.

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## Imran Khan

Taimur Khurram said:


> Last time I checked we had 139. I highly doubt they all got replaced/retired that quick.


139 were not PG it waas total p and PG 139 sir


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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> future airbase of PAF


So, I think its safe to assume that @Imran Khan bhai has not taken the news to his liking.

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## Khan Kore

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378
> Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
> *Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
> *Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
> *Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built


Weren't we suppose to retire these fighter jets??


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## Taimur Khurram

Imran Khan said:


> 139 were not PG it waas total p and PG 139 sir



But he wasn't just speaking of PGs.


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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> So, I think its safe to assume that @Imran Khan bhai has not taken the news to his liking.


i am totally against this i want to canbil our own mirages to keep rest flying



Taimur Khurram said:


> But he wasn't just speaking of PGs.


i think he said about PG only


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## waz

Smart buy, no way can the PAF replace such a large number of aircraft quickly, and the Mirages have just proved their worth. Leave it to the professionals folks. 


By the way I hope there's no truth in the following news; 

*The PAF is currently in negotiations with the British government and BAE to purchase around 150 Tiger Moth 2 fighters to supplement their strike package. *







https://aviationweek.com/tigermoth
*


*

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## Dark-Silence

Decision seems wise and timely, even India don't have all their fleet updated, they are using same type of planes. So when it comes to number and spares, PAF did a wise decision. WAR is at your door step. To fuel war you need spare parts in good stock to run operations. This is good operational plan for 3-4 years. For strategic 5-10 years plans JF-17, Project AZM and Chinese 5th Generation is already align. So wait and watch still much to come and pass.

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## ziaulislam

Taimur Khurram said:


> Last time I checked we had 139. I highly doubt they all got replaced/retired that quick.








The one in reds are PG

The blue one is f7p which is probably already replaced though officially we are waiting..

So F7ps are effectively gone..

next would be the mirage non rose and PGs which is 6 more squadrons (3PGs & 3 non rose) this should be done by 2025..(assuming 1 sq per year)
Unfortunately f16 didnt come as exepected otherwise the process would have been faster..we might see consolidation in numbers from 2025-2030 (increase no. / squadron) till the last 3 of ROSE squardons will go after 2030 with a new strike strategic plateform

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## Taimur Khurram

ziaulislam said:


> The one in reds are PG
> 
> The blue one is f7p which is probably already replaced though officially we are waiting..
> 
> So F7ps are effectively gone..
> 
> next would be the mirage non rose and PGs which is 6 more squadrons (3PGs & 3 non rose) this should be done by 2025..(assuming 1 sq per year)
> Unfortunately f16 didnt come as exepected otherwise the process would have been faster..we might see consolidation in numbers from 2025-2030 (increase no. / squadron) till the last 3 of ROSE squardons will go after 2030 with a new strike strategic plateform



So you're telling me since 2017, we've cut out that many F-7s? Because my source comes from 2017, and it said that back then we had 139 F-7s.

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## Cuirassier

For those wondering, we have 91 F7s, including FT7, FT7PG, F7P and F7PG. 

PAFs current Mirage fleet stands at 133, including 82 Mirage III and 51 Mirage V. 
From Mily Balance figures.

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## ziaulislam

Taimur Khurram said:


> So you're telling me since 2017, we've cut out that many F-7s? Because my source comes from 2017, and it said that back then we had 139 F-7s.


Well it might have counted the PG + F7s or even the ones in reserves because back in 2008 we had around 150 so what did the 150+ jet fighters we inducted since 2008 replaced ?(110 thunders and 40 odd f16s )


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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## Khanivore

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118525662405570560

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## Dreamer.

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378
> Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
> *Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
> *Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
> *Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built


Great News. It is almost certain now that we will also be getting their mirages 2000's......20 years later.


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## Taha Samad

So a question, 33 Mirage-IIIs were upgraded to ROSE-I standard. Even assuming some of them crashed; thats still around 2 squardon strength of ROSE-I. No7(Bandits) is one which is the other one? CCS squadron?


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## Zulfiqar

ziaulislam said:


> The one in reds are PG
> 
> The blue one is f7p which is probably already replaced though officially we are waiting..
> 
> So F7ps are effectively gone..
> 
> next would be the mirage non rose and PGs which is 6 more squadrons (3PGs & 3 non rose) this should be done by 2025..(assuming 1 sq per year)
> Unfortunately f16 didnt come as exepected otherwise the process would have been faster..we might see consolidation in numbers from 2025-2030 (increase no. / squadron) till the last 3 of ROSE squardons will go after 2030 with a new strike strategic plateform



Which of the squadrons are Non-Rose? There is one based in KHI for anti-shipping IIRC. However, I would like to know the squadron numbers.


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## BATMAN

syed_yusuf said:


> i think 23 upgraded mirage 5 Horus of EAF will see a squadron inducted in PAF



to say the least.


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## TheTallGuy

No.8 Sqn "Haiders" or No.15 Sqn "Cobras" which operate Mirage 5PA(Oldest models) are possible candidate for Mirage V Horus(23 x aircraft). I think these are actually same as Mirage 3EA ROSE I avionics wise except the RC400 Radar and FLIR which is part of ROSE II or ROSE III separately. come to think of it They are more advance Then current Mirage ROSE I, II and III as they are complete package.

Its amazing That RC400 radar was candidate for JF17 Thunder at one point in time.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we replacing 5 decades old Mirages with planes like J-10 ??


Lack of funds !


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## ziaulislam

TheTallGuy said:


> No.8 Sqn "Haiders" or No.15 Sqn "Cobras" which operate Mirage 5PA(Oldest models) are possible candidate for Mirage V Horus(23 x aircraft). I think these are actually same as Mirage 3EA ROSE I avionics wise except the RC400 Radar and FLIR which is part of ROSE II or ROSE III separately. come to think of it They are more advance Then current Mirage ROSE I, II and III as they are complete package.
> 
> Its amazing That RC400 radar was candidate for JF17 Thunder at one point in time.


Very capable plans if they are inducted the rc400 can fire variety of bvrs

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## maximuswarrior

Khanivore said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118525662405570560



This is very good. We are getting an excellent deal here. Very capable fighters.

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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 553984


Rc 400 is superior to mirage 2000 old radar and can fire MICA IRST
The same radar we were about to buy

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## TheTallGuy

look at the bright side...fast induction ..no cost of integration...pilots already trained..operational tactics well versed on airframe...see it as wartime induction

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## Tps43

ziaulislam said:


> All f7 have been retired with just 2-3 sq of PGs version left


18sqn of f 7p f t 7p is still here

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## Tps43

waz said:


> Smart buy, no way can the PAF replace such a large number of aircraft quickly, and the Mirages have just proved their worth. Leave it to the professionals folks.
> 
> 
> By the way I hope there's no truth in the following news;
> 
> *The PAF is currently in negotiations with the British government and BAE to purchase around 150 Tiger Moth 2 fighters to supplement their strike package. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://aviationweek.com/tigermoth
> *
> 
> *


Aint those in pic are too old


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## Keysersoze

ziaulislam said:


> Very capable plans if they are inducted the rc400 can fire variety of bvrs


Exactly so the PAF has just added more BVR platforms at a very low price.


ziaulislam said:


> Rc 400 is superior to mirage 2000 old radar and can fire MICA IRST
> The same radar we were about to buy





Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 553984


Are you going to pay for them? Have you noticed there is a financial crisis? Have you complained about tax evasion? 

If not stop demanding large ticket items.


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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> in our saraiki we say
> 
> *مردے کی گانڈ پر مکھن لگانے سے وہ زندہ نہیں ہو جاتا *


Bhai mard jitna be bora hu jai kuch taqat baqi huta hey


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## TheTallGuy

Keysersoze said:


> Exactly so the PAF has just added more BVR platforms at a very low price.



Mind you These aircraft are strike/attack optimized..just as ROSE I but with different radar with over all complete package without MICA for escort and air superiority we JF17s and F-16s that will do BVR engagements

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## ziaulislam

Keysersoze said:


> Exactly so the PAF has just added more BVR platforms at a very low price.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you going to pay for them? Have you noticed there is a financial crisis? Have you complained about tax evasion?
> 
> If not stop demanding large ticket items.


Which is why i am interested in wat is going to happen, will they fly or be canablaized ? ..if they fly what weapons will they have?
Could Pakistan procure some decent AA weapons with these?

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## Enigma SIG

If i'm not wrong we have a Mirage (engine?) rebuild factory? We could theoretically do a nut and bolt restoration on these and make them good as new.

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## ziaulislam

Tps43 said:


> 18sqn of f 7p f t 7p is still here


Yes..almost replaced /next in line..


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I am very happy with this deal as we are probably getting 36 Horus Mirages for the price of one Rafale or less. I am sure in future Mirage 2000 will be looked into as well.As this is the only IAF aircraft that has perturbed PAF slightly.All Western platforms last at least three times their counter parts in the East. I still remember when Pakistan ordered 40 F16s Indira Gandhi panicked and ordered 400 aircrafts of different origins.Irony is that only Mirage 2000s are the remnants of that shopping spree.

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## Tps43

ziaulislam said:


> Yes..almost replaced /next in line..


With whom? JF 17 B still aren’t in numbers

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## El Sidd

Every tool has a use. 

These can be used. Throw them straight into the battlefield.

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## TheTallGuy

Logically Mirage V Horus upgraded they are only 23 left out of 36 will get inducted in service and all other remaining non-upgraded single or dual seats will be reduced to spares...


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## Hassan Guy

I still think this could open the door to a Mirage 2000 purchase, since those guys are getting the Rafale, Su-35 and Mig-35, Qatar could easily be a lock as well with them getting the F-15, Rafale and Eurofighter.


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## Dreamer.

I have no idea where some members get the idea that we will be getting the most recently upgraded mirages with the RC 400 radar etc. etc.

The tweet that is the source of this entire discussion says no such thing. It only says we will get a 'batch' of egyptian mirages, not all of them. And it doesn't specify which ones. However logically egypt would want to off-load the oldest non-upgraded ones first. And remember we are getting them for spares....

All this horus, rc 400, etc. talk is mere speculation.

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## ziaulislam

Also we dont even know which mirages V ..Egypt even has regular mirage 5 as well


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## TheTallGuy

Guys why the obsession with Mirage 2000 this aircraft is out of production. if we get them for free it would still cost us an arm and a leg . new engine Overhaul facilities for SNECMA M53 Engines new weapons system MICA which your enemy already has...and knows it well radar which your enemy already has knows it well. what it can do - knows it well.

We just destroyed Rafale superiority 1 and half year back by knowing it completely why would we use the same airplane that india is using for last 35-40 years. are we crazy! 

why India did not ordered Block 70/72 just because we have operated them (legacy generation) for 35-40 Years..

This Fetish with Mirage 2000 should stop!



Dreamer. said:


> I have no idea where some members get the idea that we will be getting the most recently upgraded mirages with the RC 400 radar etc. etc.
> 
> The tweet that is the source of this entire discussion says no such thing. It only says we will get a 'batch' of egyptian mirages, not all of them. And it doesn't specify which ones. However logically egypt would want to off-load the oldest non-upgraded ones first. And remember we are getting them for spares....
> 
> All this horus, rc 400, etc. talk is mere speculation.



Egyptians Ordered New Rafales, MiG-29s and now i think Su-35s its logical that they have phased out Mirages 5s Horus or non upgraded ones...much better for them if they have a buyer..you know scraping also cost money. after all they are getting money out of this deal and its not like they have buyers lining up to take them..

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## ACE OF THE AIR

waz said:


> Smart buy, no way can the PAF replace such a large number of aircraft quickly, and the Mirages have just proved their worth. Leave it to the professionals folks.
> 
> 
> By the way I hope there's no truth in the following news;
> 
> *The PAF is currently in negotiations with the British government and BAE to purchase around 150 Tiger Moth 2 fighters to supplement their strike package. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://aviationweek.com/tigermoth
> *
> 
> *


Also add some Tempest furry, hurricanes, spitfires, P-51 mustangs, Me-109 and Zero.




ziaulislam said:


> Which is why i am interested in wat is going to happen, will they fly or be canablaized ? ..if they fly what weapons will they have?
> Could Pakistan procure some decent AA weapons with these?


ASK USA for AMRAAM

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## Amavous

There are multiple people hinting that these Mirage V will be Horus upgrade ones. Off course truth will be known only after something official come out.

Check these tweets some several months old.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294
and this guy also asked the good questions I hope Alan Warn answer then we will have clear picture


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118517685841797120

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## Taimur Khurram

ziaulislam said:


> Well it might have counted the PG + F7s



Were you referring to just PGs? Your original comment gave me the impression you meant all F-7s (my source was speaking about all F-7s).



Tps43 said:


> 18sqn of f 7p f t 7p is still here



Congrats on getting Professional role.

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## Dreamer.

TheTallGuy said:


> Egyptians Ordered New Rafales, MiG-29s and now i think Su-35s its logical that they have phased out Mirages 5s Horus or non upgraded ones...much better for them if they have a buyer..you know scraping also cost money. after all they are getting money out of this deal and its not like they have buyers lining up to take them..



That is still just speculation, nothing more. Still no solid information about which of the egyptian mirage-5's our 'batch' will consist of.


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## waz

Hassan Guy said:


> I still think this could open the door to a Mirage 2000 purchase, since those guys are getting the Rafale, Su-35 and Mig-35, Qatar could easily be a lock as well with them getting the F-15, Rafale and Eurofighter.



No bro it won't that horse left the stable a year back. There are multiple reasons why this is never going to happen. The strongest being zero support from France, spares a massive issue, new line and none available to buy.

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## Dreamer.

Amavous said:


> There are multiple people hinting that these Mirage V will be Horus upgrade ones. Off course truth will be known only after something official come out.
> 
> Check these tweets some several months old.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294



As per this tweet PAF was 'yet to respond' in January 2019 on offer of the upgraded Horus Mirages. _If that is true_ than this _might _refer to a future deal for a future batch and not the current batch we are supposed to receive for which negotiations have been going on for couple of years as per Alan Warnes.


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## Amavous

Dreamer. said:


> As per this tweet PAF was 'yet to respond' in January 2019 on offer of the upgraded Horus Mirages. _If that is true_ than this _might _refer to a future deal for a future batch and not the current batch we are supposed to receive for which negotiations have been going on for couple of years as per Alan Warnes.



it is also possible that WAR like situation with India pushed PAF to seal the deal quickly. Alan warn also mentioned that some Mirages will see active service in PAF and I think Horus upgrade will be inducted and rest will be canablised.

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## New World

The Eagle said:


> Both parties were in talks for a couple of years and now it has been sealed/done. We can expect these birds in upcoming months in PAF colours.


zabardast..

acha Thunder ka kaam ho gaya ya abhi chitchat chal rahy hai..


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## baqai

First F7's will be replaced, Mirage is a potent A2G platform and since french are in india's lap i think it's not a bad move to have these from Egypt for spares just in case we start a full blown conflict, Good to keep our existing fleet up and running till we are in position of replacing them with something adequate

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## Trailer23

Hassan Guy said:


> since those guys are getting the Rafale, Su-35 and Mig-35


CORRECTION: MiG-29 - Currently, _only_ Russia is operating the MiG-35, in a very tiny number.


New World said:


> acha Thunder ka kaam ho gaya ya abhi chitchat chal rahy hai..


I'm not sure if Egypt has any plans on taking on the JF-17 for a while, because they already have a lot on their plate with orders.


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## BRAVO_

first of all news is unconfirmed and just a fireworks for keyboard warriors ... but... if somehow this gossip suddenly comes true then for me it would be shocking, i was reading a news about crash rates of PAF from May 2011 to December 2012, they lost 13 aircrafts majority of them were old Mirages and in recent combat with india lesson of entire campaign was , in modern warfare avionics are the key to success, just training of a pilot will not help to win the air combat anymore, otherwise, abhinandan was a good pilot but he was pitched against a superior aircraft and eventually ended up humiliated, if we pitched our pilots with these old mirages against their front line fighters results will not be different


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## Trailer23

I mentioned this earlier, but I suppose people didn't take much notice to it because (_a_) They/we don't know. (_b_) They/We don't care.

*Q. How much have we spent on these jets from Egypt?*

(_If_) its not a staggering figure and that one the _Ministry of Defense_ are okay to cough up - great.

Bear in mind, India after 4-5 Years has all of a sudden woken up from cryogenic sleep and started listening to their Air Force about the static decrease in Squadrons. Now the finance has finally kicked in with orders for Rafales, the Craigslist Funding $900 Million for the 21 MiG-29's and possibly another order - in the coming months [Rafales, Gripen, Su-30, MiG-35, F-18 and the F-21].

The JF-17's aren't coming off the assembly line for the PAF for free & nor are we getting those Russian/China engines via charity. And discussed over a 100 times a week - that we do not have funds to counter India with (orders of) new jets.

Finally, for the F-16 enthusiasts..., with the PAF spending whatever (little) funds _we did have_ on getting these jets from Egypt - *Did we just give up on any (possible) hope of getting used F-16's?*

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## mingle

Khanivore said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118525662405570560


I can see HUD in cockpit


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## jupiter2007

Trailer23 said:


> I mentioned this earlier, but I suppose people didn't take much notice to it because (_a_) They/we don't know. (_b_) They/We don't care.
> 
> *Q. How much have we spent on these jets from Egypt?*
> 
> (_If_) its not a staggering figure and that one the _Ministry of Defense_ are okay to cough up - great.
> 
> Bear in mind, India after 4-5 Years has all of a sudden woken up from cryogenic sleep and started listening to their Air Force about the static decrease in Squadrons. Now the finance has finally kicked in with orders for Rafales, the Craigslist Funding $900 Million for the 21 MiG-29's and possibly another order - in the coming months [Rafales, Gripen, Su-30, MiG-35, F-18 and the F-21].
> 
> The JF-17's aren't coming off the assembly line for the PAF for free & nor are we getting those Russian/China engines via charity. And discussed over a 100 times a week - that we do not have funds to counter India with (orders of) new jets.
> 
> Finally, for the F-16 enthusiasts..., with the PAF spending whatever (little) funds _we did have_ on getting these jets from Egypt - *Did we just give up on any (possible) hope of getting used F-16's?*



There are still hope for the used F-16s. Just like PTI has different groups (Tareen group, Qureshi group, Aleeem Khan group), there are also groups in USA government and some would like to have a good relationship with Pakistan.

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## Khanivore

I'm interested to know how many would be in condition to fly. Can't hurt PAF to have 10-12 more on the runways.


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## Trailer23



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## killerx

"PAF" Stop spending my tax money to old useless shit, why pay for scrap we will be only using for parts.


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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> I mentioned this earlier, but I suppose people didn't take much notice to it because (_a_) They/we don't know. (_b_) They/We don't care.
> 
> *Q. How much have we spent on these jets from Egypt?*
> 
> (_If_) its not a staggering figure and that one the _Ministry of Defense_ are okay to cough up - great.
> 
> Bear in mind, India after 4-5 Years has all of a sudden woken up from cryogenic sleep and started listening to their Air Force about the static decrease in Squadrons. Now the finance has finally kicked in with orders for Rafales, the Craigslist Funding $900 Million for the 21 MiG-29's and possibly another order - in the coming months [Rafales, Gripen, Su-30, MiG-35, F-18 and the F-21].
> 
> The JF-17's aren't coming off the assembly line for the PAF for free & nor are we getting those Russian/China engines via charity. And discussed over a 100 times a week - that we do not have funds to counter India with (orders of) new jets.
> 
> Finally, for the F-16 enthusiasts..., with the PAF spending whatever (little) funds _we did have_ on getting these jets from Egypt - *Did we just give up on any (possible) hope of getting used F-16's?*


Trust me if USA allows used f16 PAF is going to jump at it..funds or no funds



killerx said:


> "PAF" Stop spending my tax money to old useless shit, why pay for scrap we will be only using for parts.


This scrap is flying for 22 years (since it was called scrap, otherwise 50+ years) and launched strikes at India ..it wasnt the thunder or the f16

They go a complete rebuild in kamara

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> Trust me if USA allows used f16 PAF is going to jump at it..funds or no funds
> 
> 
> This scrap is flying for 22 years (since it was called scrap, otherwise 50+ years) and launched strikes at India ..it wasnt the thunder or the f16
> 
> They go a complete rebuild in kamara



If they can rebuild, why not go for own version of mirage just like Israel. I know we cannot do that


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## Trailer23

When the guys on the Mirage's heard that MORE Mirage's were on their way & that they won't be moving up on the JF-17's - until 2030...

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## JonAsad

syed_yusuf said:


> i think 23 upgraded mirage 5 Horus of EAF will see a squadron inducted in PAF


This video gave me thr-chills

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## ziaulislam

TheTallGuy said:


> Guys why the obsession with Mirage 2000 this aircraft is out of production. if we get them for free it would still cost us an arm and a leg . new engine Overhaul facilities for SNECMA M53 Engines new weapons system MICA which your enemy already has...and knows it well radar which your enemy already has knows it well. what it can do - knows it well.
> 
> We just destroyed Rafale superiority 1 and half year back by knowing it completely why would we use the same airplane that india is using for last 35-40 years. are we crazy!
> 
> why India did not ordered Block 70/72 just because we have operated them (legacy generation) for 35-40 Years..
> 
> This Fetish with Mirage 2000 should stop!
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptians Ordered New Rafales, MiG-29s and now i think Su-35s its logical that they have phased out Mirages 5s Horus or non upgraded ones...much better for them if they have a buyer..you know scraping also cost money. after all they are getting money out of this deal and its not like they have buyers lining up to take them..


Apart from f16 the only other option is typhoon from Italy used or new ..

From western equipments Italy is a relaible patner, we also have south african and turkish suppliers but rest are drying up as India pushes hard..

mirage2000 is not an option given french behavior and lack of spares..

Unlike mirage5 mirage2000 users will be limited to france and any spares we will be dependent upon them



jupiter2007 said:


> If they can rebuild, why not go for own version of mirage just like Israel. I know we cannot do that


Rebuild using old frames..we already have jf17..why build another plan?

Remeber the wings lose life sooner than fuselages ..we simply replace older worn out parts with less worn out parts from another airframe


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## Thorough Pro

Because PAF leadership is stupid, government is giving them billions of Dollars to purchase F22's but they love 50 year old mirages, or maybe because our previous governments have drowned our economy in chin deep shit...





Muhammad Omar said:


> Why aren't we replacing 5 decades old Mirages with planes like J-10 ??

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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> @Signalian Comments?


Two major strike squadrons of PAF fly Mirage-V aircrafts. PAF uses Mirage III in in Air combat role and Mirage-V in strike role. There are two main issues, procurement and then upgrades. lets look at the three types of aircrafts that PAF wants to keep flying earnestly; JF-17, F-16, Mirage III/V. 

JF-17 is being procured and upgraded by PAF. Whenever F-16 is procured, its upgraded by TAI and quality checked by LM USA, as seen in recent past. The Mirages have been extensively upgraded, the money has been invested already. There is obviously the ROSE upgrade, but the rest of the fleet has been upgraded to a certain extent too. Replacing Mirages still requires alot of investment, in the form of a new aircraft, which after procurement will again go through upgrades to reach parity and commonality with JF-17 at least or F-16 if its a western aircraft. The Mirage V which took part in LOC strike were non-ROSE but definitely upgraded. 

During an analysis with another member here on PDF (cant remember now who he was). we observed that PAF Mirages squadrons are mixed, which means they fly both Mirage III and Mirage V in same squadron. Mirage III provides AD/escort and Mirage V is used for strike. Basically self sufficient squadron. However, the strike showed something different. JF-17 on escort, Mirage-V on strike, and now since PAF is getting Mirage-V's, this could mean that Mirage III would be the next to go after F-7P/PG's. The importance of Mirage III still holds since Ra'ad ALCM was tested on it. Operationally, PAF has shown that JF-17 and Mirage-V's are set to be paired together in an event of war.

Mirage V differentiates from Mirage III in terms of two more hard points, better rate of climb and a longer nose. Its also said to carry more fuel and more ordnance than Mirage III. The versatility of Mirage V can be seen by the fact that it holds two major dedicated roles in PAF: night time strike and Naval support. These roles are shared with JF-17 and F-16 now.

Coming back to procurement and up-gradation. The plus points in this acquisition is saving cost in terms of:
1. Weaponry: PAF wouldn't need to acquire and integrate new weapons. 
2. Infrastructure, training, pilot hours, simulations etc.
3. Upgrading EAF's Mirages V's to ROSE standard is not required since, these can be used as spares for ROSE or other upgraded versions. Basically, if these aircrafts can help ROSE squadrons fly for another 20 years through cannibalism for spares, then this acquisition is worth it.

If they are deemed proficient in terms of lesser flying hours, then yes induction and possibly upgrades are possible. This would still depend, these can be used to replace other aircrafts or can also be used to increase inventory. In the former, replacing systems from old frames into new frames would be done, while in latter, induction will take place with better avionics and systems. Its up to PAF to decide the path, it wants to take.

Regarding Mirage 2000, PAF will see feasibility from all pov's. Cost of induction, infrastructure, upgrades, weaponry, training, simulators and finally frame life. F-16 still has production line running, it has a major MLU plan in process, not just M-3 or M-5 but also V-standard now. JF-17 has newer blocks coming in, probably upto Block IV. So cost wise., Mirage 2000 will always be costlier. Comparing capability, yes Mirage 2000 is much more capable than Mirage V. So Mirage 2000 justifies its cost vis a vis Mirage V, but compared to F-16 or JF-17, their capability comes at a lower cost than Mirage-2000. The Ra'ad issue still exists; which can be solved through a different platform or redesigning the ALCM itself.

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## Abdelrahman

As I heard and know, Egypt is going to get the Emiraiti Mirage 2000s to support and increase the number of its Mirage 2000 fleet (18-20 fighter jets). I heard also that PAF is getting the Mirage 5 Horus fleet (around 70 fighter jets- may be confused with the number of Egyptian F-4 Phantoms that were put OOS since 2010) to support its fleet or even to be used as spare parts when needed. Sometimes quick temporary solutions are needed.

Out of context, I personally trust the French made fighters even if they’re obsolete.

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## Maxpane

Signalian said:


> Two major strike squadrons of PAF fly Mirage-V aircrafts. PAF uses Mirage III in in Air combat role and Mirage-V in strike role. There are two main issues, procurement and then upgrades. lets look at the three types of aircrafts that PAF wants to keep flying earnestly; JF-17, F-16, Mirage III/V.
> 
> JF-17 is being procured and upgraded by PAF. Whenever F-16 is procured, its upgraded by TAI and quality checked by LM USA, as seen in recent past. The Mirages have been extensively upgraded, the money has been invested already. There is obviously the ROSE upgrade, but the rest of the fleet has been upgraded to a certain extent too. Replacing Mirages still requires alot of investment, in the form of a new aircraft, which after procurement will again go through upgrades to reach parity and commonality with JF-17 at least or F-16 if its a western aircraft. The Mirage V which took part in LOC strike were non-ROSE but definitely upgraded.
> 
> During an analysis with another member here on PDF (cant remember now who he was). we observed that PAF Mirages squadrons are mixed, which means they fly both Mirage III and Mirage V in same squadron. Mirage III provides AD/escort and Mirage V is used for strike. Basically self sufficient squadron. However, the strike showed something different. JF-17 on escort, Mirage-V on strike, and now since PAF is getting Mirage-V's, this could mean that Mirage III would be the next to go after F-7P/PG's. The importance of Mirage III still holds since Ra'ad ALCM was tested on it. Operationally, PAF has shown that JF-17 and Mirage-V's are set to be paired together in an event of war.
> 
> Mirage V differentiates from Mirage III in terms of two more hard points, better rate of climb and a longer nose. Its also said to carry more fuel and more ordnance than Mirage III. The versatility of Mirage V can be seen by the fact that it holds two major dedicated roles in PAF: night time strike and Naval support. These roles are shared with JF-17 and F-16 now.
> 
> Coming back to procurement and up-gradation. The plus points in this acquisition is saving cost in terms of:
> 1. Weaponry: PAF wouldn't need to acquire and integrate new weapons.
> 2. Infrastructure, training, pilot hours, simulations etc.
> 3. Upgrading EAF's Mirages V's to ROSE standard is not required since, these can be used as spares for ROSE or other upgraded versions. Basically, if these aircrafts can help ROSE squadrons fly for another 20 years through cannibalism for spares, then this acquisition is worth it.
> 
> If they are deemed proficient in terms of lesser flying hours, then yes induction and possibly upgrades are possible. This would still depend, these can be used to replace other aircrafts or can also be used to increase inventory. In the former, replacing systems from old frames into new frames would be done, while in latter, induction will take place with better avionics and systems. Its up to PAF to decide the path, it wants to take.
> 
> Regarding Mirage 2000, PAF will see feasibility from all pov's. Cost of induction, infrastructure, upgrades, weaponry, training, simulators and finally frame life. F-16 still has production line running, it has a major MLU plan in process, not just M-3 or M-5 but also V-standard now. JF-17 has newer blocks coming in, probably upto Block IV. So cost wise., Mirage 2000 will always be costlier. Comparing capability, yes Mirage 2000 is much more capable than Mirage V. So Mirage 2000 justifies its cost vis a vis Mirage V, but compared to F-16 or JF-17, their capability comes at a lower cost than Mirage-2000. The Ra'ad issue still exists; which can be solved through a different platform or redesigning the ALCM itself.


thank you sir for your analysis

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## Tps43

Taimur Khurram said:


> Were you referring to just PGs? Your original comment gave me the impression you meant all F-7s (my source was speaking about all F-7s).
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats on getting Professional role.


Thanks alot

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## Pakistani Fighter

Signalian said:


> Two major strike squadrons of PAF fly Mirage-V aircrafts. PAF uses Mirage III in in Air combat role and Mirage-V in strike role. There are two main issues, procurement and then upgrades. lets look at the three types of aircrafts that PAF wants to keep flying earnestly; JF-17, F-16, Mirage III/V.
> 
> JF-17 is being procured and upgraded by PAF. Whenever F-16 is procured, its upgraded by TAI and quality checked by LM USA, as seen in recent past. The Mirages have been extensively upgraded, the money has been invested already. There is obviously the ROSE upgrade, but the rest of the fleet has been upgraded to a certain extent too. Replacing Mirages still requires alot of investment, in the form of a new aircraft, which after procurement will again go through upgrades to reach parity and commonality with JF-17 at least or F-16 if its a western aircraft. The Mirage V which took part in LOC strike were non-ROSE but definitely upgraded.
> 
> During an analysis with another member here on PDF (cant remember now who he was). we observed that PAF Mirages squadrons are mixed, which means they fly both Mirage III and Mirage V in same squadron. Mirage III provides AD/escort and Mirage V is used for strike. Basically self sufficient squadron. However, the strike showed something different. JF-17 on escort, Mirage-V on strike, and now since PAF is getting Mirage-V's, this could mean that Mirage III would be the next to go after F-7P/PG's. The importance of Mirage III still holds since Ra'ad ALCM was tested on it. Operationally, PAF has shown that JF-17 and Mirage-V's are set to be paired together in an event of war.
> 
> Mirage V differentiates from Mirage III in terms of two more hard points, better rate of climb and a longer nose. Its also said to carry more fuel and more ordnance than Mirage III. The versatility of Mirage V can be seen by the fact that it holds two major dedicated roles in PAF: night time strike and Naval support. These roles are shared with JF-17 and F-16 now.
> 
> Coming back to procurement and up-gradation. The plus points in this acquisition is saving cost in terms of:
> 1. Weaponry: PAF wouldn't need to acquire and integrate new weapons.
> 2. Infrastructure, training, pilot hours, simulations etc.
> 3. Upgrading EAF's Mirages V's to ROSE standard is not required since, these can be used as spares for ROSE or other upgraded versions. Basically, if these aircrafts can help ROSE squadrons fly for another 20 years through cannibalism for spares, then this acquisition is worth it.
> 
> If they are deemed proficient in terms of lesser flying hours, then yes induction and possibly upgrades are possible. This would still depend, these can be used to replace other aircrafts or can also be used to increase inventory. In the former, replacing systems from old frames into new frames would be done, while in latter, induction will take place with better avionics and systems. Its up to PAF to decide the path, it wants to take.
> 
> Regarding Mirage 2000, PAF will see feasibility from all pov's. Cost of induction, infrastructure, upgrades, weaponry, training, simulators and finally frame life. F-16 still has production line running, it has a major MLU plan in process, not just M-3 or M-5 but also V-standard now. JF-17 has newer blocks coming in, probably upto Block IV. So cost wise., Mirage 2000 will always be costlier. Comparing capability, yes Mirage 2000 is much more capable than Mirage V. So Mirage 2000 justifies its cost vis a vis Mirage V, but compared to F-16 or JF-17, their capability comes at a lower cost than Mirage-2000. The Ra'ad issue still exists; which can be solved through a different platform or redesigning the ALCM itself.


What are weapons of Mirage III for Air to Air??


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## Super Falcon

Once they say they dont have budget than they buy this junk

If paf even buy 5 SU 35 far better than these 

Look how stupud our thinking is egypt who dont have big threat than us sell them and buy SU 35 and we keep miss using funds on junk

Its proven fact we have money but not a willto get best

Quaide azam said pak must build its airforce second to none

But PAF doing oppsite buying second class jets willingly

Why d


Pakistani Aircraft said:


> This induction is for spare parts mainly from my understanding of the tweet.


Ontphase them out they dont offer much

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## Signalian

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What are weapons of Mirage III for Air to Air??


AIM-9 Sidewinder, Matra R.530, Super 530 and Matra R.550 Magic.
Reportedly R-Darter is operated, but not confirmed.

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## guest9999

If Pakistan can overhaul Mirage aircraft, make modifications that affect aerodynamics like refueling probe, integrate newer electronics for ROSE, build JF-17 air frames, *why can't it do something similar to IAI Kfir*?

Pakistan can build new air frame, maybe add canards. For engines, it will need to outsource to another supplier or build locally on license. IAI Kfir was based on the Dassault Mirage aircraft.

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## GriffinsRule

Imran Khan said:


> i disagree they are falling from sky like rocks . just check sir lately they have too many crashed .


Can you tell me how many have crashed and when ... say for the last 3-5 years?

I hope some of these also serve as attrition replacements, especially the dual-seat variants


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## mdmm

How many of J-10 jet is Pakistan signed with China?
When and why not get J-10 than old Mirage-V


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## CHACHA"G"

Until , unless Replacement for Mirages available ( most probably delta with same mission requirements) we will going to see more of such inductions for spear parts ……..
Some how we have to keep our current Jets (airworthy) ...


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## batmannow

Obsolete junks, just because PAF can upgrade them, to next level still thy wana hve these junks, which will just waste more money on overhauling and upgrading these old brids to ker them in skies?
It's far more better we could hve gone for a few gripens, SU35s or evn latest versions of J10s, Tht would hve us new airframes and latest tech in the air rather having these junks, evn having a few mirrages 2000 won't be a bad idea in longer run ?

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> Apart from f16 the only other option is typhoon from Italy used or new ..
> 
> From western equipments Italy is a relaible patner, we also have south african and turkish suppliers but rest are drying up as India pushes hard..
> 
> mirage2000 is not an option given french behavior and lack of spares..
> 
> Unlike mirage5 mirage2000 users will be limited to france and any spares we will be dependent upon them
> 
> 
> Rebuild using old frames..we already have jf17..why build another plan?
> 
> Remeber the wings lose life sooner than fuselages ..we simply replace older worn out parts with less worn out parts from another airframe



Rebuilding Mirage V was a joke.

Most of the Egyptian Mirage V still have life left in them so we might see them flying in Pakistan. These might replace older mirage or F-7s.

As far as mirage 2000 are concerned, it all depends on how hard someone pushing the panic button in PAF. Never say no until the French pigs start flying.

JF-17 might be best replacement for older planes but it’s a light weight fighter and may not be the best option to counter Medium weight and heavyweights fighters. To counter those, we need true 4.5 generation medium weight fighter plane or 5th generation fighter. 
Block 3 needs more composite materials to reduce weight and more powerful engine.

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## iLION12345_1

Another thread where the self righteous Pakistanis are crying about what the armed forces do as if they know better than generals with 40 years of experience. You lot are sitting behind keyboards on a Defence Forum. You do not know the needs, wants and requirements of our armed forces. We can’t replace the Mirages overnight. They are not obsolete. Especially with the ROSE upgrades they have. That’s why the F7s, which are crash prone, are being replaced first, until then we need to keep the Mirages flying. These air craft are being ordered for spare parts since they aren’t produced by Dassault anymore. Can you people please think just a little bit before becoming Defence experts?

A few points to prove this deals need;
1. We get to keep our Mirages flying that have A much better safety and Victory record (27th February being the latest example) Than the F7s which need urgent replacement.
2. We probably got them for a price good enough for the deal to be worth it. Again, the military knows better. Not teenagers on a Defence forum.
3. Some people mentioned how “5 SU 35s” or “J-10s” or “‘Mirage 2000s” or “a few gripens” are a better deal. Can you please read your own posts and see the flaws in it? First compare the price difference of the jets themselves. Then compare how much time and money will be needed to set up a complex to maintain these, buy weapons for them, train pilots for them. Until then we would be at a loss of flying jets. And what the hell are we gonna do with 5 of a type of jet? Make a independent wing? Tf?.

*Please Pakistanis. Think before you post. *

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## alphibeti

Super Falcon said:


> Once they say they dont have budget than they buy this junk
> 
> If paf even buy 5 SU 35 far better than these
> 
> Look how stupud our thinking is egypt who dont have big threat than us sell them and buy SU 35 and we keep miss using funds on junk
> 
> Its proven fact we have money but not a willto get best
> 
> Quaide azam said pak must build its airforce second to none
> 
> But PAF doing oppsite buying second class jets willingly
> 
> Why d
> 
> Ontphase them out they dont offer much


I don't think it's rocket science to understand the current state of affairs of Pakistan. Firstm we need to cool down our head. Then get the fact right that we cannot buy new planes (least of all SU-35) financially and logically in even small numbers (even though the number of planes in PAF needing a replacement is in hundreds). If we want to continue with JF-17 and Azm projects as committed as before, we'll have to keep Mirages operational for at least another five years. Of course we'll then need spares for that and what is a better option to meet the requirement other than buying old mirages?



batmannow said:


> Obsolete junks, just because PAF can upgrade them, to next level still thy wana hve these junks, which will just waste more money on overhauling and upgrading these old brids to ker them in skies?
> It's far more better we could hve gone for a few gripens, SU35s or evn latest versions of J10s, Tht would hve us new airframes and latest tech in the air rather having these junks, evn having a few mirrages 2000 won't be a bad idea in longer run ?


Obsolete junks? Even after what these mirages did on 27/2? These planes defeated and breached much hyped India's layered air defence equipped with presumably top class Israeli, Russian, and French technology. These planes delivered the munition at its targets with such an accuracy. BTW, how do you define the word 'obsolete'? Know its meanings?

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## TsAr

Signalian said:


> Two major strike squadrons of PAF fly Mirage-V aircrafts. PAF uses Mirage III in in Air combat role and Mirage-V in strike role. There are two main issues, procurement and then upgrades. lets look at the three types of aircrafts that PAF wants to keep flying earnestly; JF-17, F-16, Mirage III/V.
> 
> JF-17 is being procured and upgraded by PAF. Whenever F-16 is procured, its upgraded by TAI and quality checked by LM USA, as seen in recent past. The Mirages have been extensively upgraded, the money has been invested already. There is obviously the ROSE upgrade, but the rest of the fleet has been upgraded to a certain extent too. Replacing Mirages still requires alot of investment, in the form of a new aircraft, which after procurement will again go through upgrades to reach parity and commonality with JF-17 at least or F-16 if its a western aircraft. The Mirage V which took part in LOC strike were non-ROSE but definitely upgraded.
> 
> During an analysis with another member here on PDF (cant remember now who he was). we observed that PAF Mirages squadrons are mixed, which means they fly both Mirage III and Mirage V in same squadron. Mirage III provides AD/escort and Mirage V is used for strike. Basically self sufficient squadron. However, the strike showed something different. JF-17 on escort, Mirage-V on strike, and now since PAF is getting Mirage-V's, this could mean that Mirage III would be the next to go after F-7P/PG's. The importance of Mirage III still holds since Ra'ad ALCM was tested on it. Operationally, PAF has shown that JF-17 and Mirage-V's are set to be paired together in an event of war.
> 
> Mirage V differentiates from Mirage III in terms of two more hard points, better rate of climb and a longer nose. Its also said to carry more fuel and more ordnance than Mirage III. The versatility of Mirage V can be seen by the fact that it holds two major dedicated roles in PAF: night time strike and Naval support. These roles are shared with JF-17 and F-16 now.
> 
> Coming back to procurement and up-gradation. The plus points in this acquisition is saving cost in terms of:
> 1. Weaponry: PAF wouldn't need to acquire and integrate new weapons.
> 2. Infrastructure, training, pilot hours, simulations etc.
> 3. Upgrading EAF's Mirages V's to ROSE standard is not required since, these can be used as spares for ROSE or other upgraded versions. Basically, if these aircrafts can help ROSE squadrons fly for another 20 years through cannibalism for spares, then this acquisition is worth it.
> 
> If they are deemed proficient in terms of lesser flying hours, then yes induction and possibly upgrades are possible. This would still depend, these can be used to replace other aircrafts or can also be used to increase inventory. In the former, replacing systems from old frames into new frames would be done, while in latter, induction will take place with better avionics and systems. Its up to PAF to decide the path, it wants to take.
> 
> Regarding Mirage 2000, PAF will see feasibility from all pov's. Cost of induction, infrastructure, upgrades, weaponry, training, simulators and finally frame life. F-16 still has production line running, it has a major MLU plan in process, not just M-3 or M-5 but also V-standard now. JF-17 has newer blocks coming in, probably upto Block IV. So cost wise., Mirage 2000 will always be costlier. Comparing capability, yes Mirage 2000 is much more capable than Mirage V. So Mirage 2000 justifies its cost vis a vis Mirage V, but compared to F-16 or JF-17, their capability comes at a lower cost than Mirage-2000. The Ra'ad issue still exists; which can be solved through a different platform or redesigning the ALCM itself.


Good analysis done @Signalian



Tps43 said:


> Thanks alot


Professional @Tps43 hmmmm taraqi......

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## The Eagle

batmannow said:


> Obsolete junks, just because PAF can upgrade them, to next level still thy wana hve these junks, which will just waste more money on overhauling and upgrading these old brids to ker them in skies?
> It's far more better we could hve gone for a few gripens, SU35s or evn latest versions of J10s, Tht would hve us new airframes and latest tech in the air rather having these junks, evn having a few mirrages 2000 won't be a bad idea in longer run ?



This is what we achieved despite limited resources. Tender closed & speaks the worth of this purchase. We shouldn't see this purchase as some Platform Addition rather is served in many ways from Spare to possible few operational birds adding more punch to existing fleet.







France is not producing spares & we don't have the luxury for such wish-list shopping. It is a reality and concerns do know as how to play well till next opportunity. New Platform means a lot of more expenses beside Fighter's cost. How could we forget infrastructure, after sale support, spares, training, weapons, induction, a whole new setup to maintain a whole new kind of platform.... it continues then but we have more of priorities to work on & JF-17 Block-III is currently on top along with maintaining existing fleet of different jets. Money matters hence, plausible approach.

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## PurpleButcher

Approximate cost of these purchases? Any guess


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## ACE OF THE AIR

PurpleButcher said:


> Approximate cost of these purchases? Any guess


apox $100 mil

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## PurpleButcher

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> apox $100 mil


In that case 1.33 million USD per aircraft/spare is not a bad deal. 

If what you quote is close to the actual figure, then the absurd debate of buying 5 SU35s or gripens or UFOs etc must be put to rest.

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## Pakistani Fighter

PurpleButcher said:


> In that case 1.33 million USD per aircraft/spare is not a bad deal.
> 
> If what you quote is close to the actual figure, then the absurd debate of buying 5 SU35s or gripens or UFOs etc must be put to rest.


How many jets are being planned to buy?


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## Tps43

TsAr said:


> Good analysis done @Signalian
> 
> 
> Professional @Tps43 hmmmm taraqi......


Thanku jee

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## Ali_Baba

Can the Mirage V Horus fire the MICA BVR since it has the RDY-400 radar? Did Egypt get them with Mica's?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Tps43 said:


> Thanku jee


Any chance I can be senior Member?


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## Tps43

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Any chance I can be senior Member?


After u cross 2000 posts


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## ziaulislam

Super Falcon said:


> Once they say they dont have budget than they buy this junk
> 
> If paf even buy 5 SU 35 far better than these
> 
> Look how stupud our thinking is egypt who dont have big threat than us sell them and buy SU 35 and we keep miss using funds on junk
> 
> Its proven fact we have money but not a willto get best
> 
> Quaide azam said pak must build its airforce second to none
> 
> But PAF doing oppsite buying second class jets willingly
> 
> Why d
> 
> Ontphase them out they dont offer much


If you buy 5 su30 at any given time only 2 or 3 will be abke to fly..not enough for major strike you need 40-60


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## SecularNationalist

Pakistani Aircraft said:


> It is because Pakistan has not inducted enough JF-17s to date that PAF is unable to phase out Mirages any time sooner.
> 
> Production of 100 JF-17 Thunders in 12-years is too slow.


According to wikipedia.From 2020 and onwards pakistan air force will only maintain multirole fighters which is F16 and JF17 thunders.
Our resources are limited but we need to maintain a big airforce because of our geo location on world map.So we have to balance and maintain our edge with old upgraded jets and superior pilot training.


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## Behram Khilji

Not a bad deal, will keep our strike aircraft in the air till we have finances to procure or increase the production of jf 17.

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## alphibeti

ziaulislam said:


> If you buy 5 su30 at any given time only 2 or 3 will be abke to fly..not enough for major strike you need 40-60


If your adversary is not like Nepal, Bangladesh, Maldives, or Sri Lanka, even 250 MKIs are not enough. Making tall claims (like Indians) is one thing and giving the performance is entirely a different ballgame.


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## airomerix

15 Sqn's recent strikes have indeed impressed the world. With a decent fighter escort, these mirages can still cause havoc for the enemy. Trust me!

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## ziaulislam

alphibeti said:


> If your adversary is not like Nepal, Bangladesh, Maldives, or Sri Lanka, even 250 MKIs are not enough. Making tall claims (like Indians) is one thing and giving the performance is entirely a different ballgame.


Well facts are that PAF did that and those mirages were enough just a month ago
Who is in denial? The whole world saw how mirages and H4 performed now if you were sleeping its not my fault

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## Keysersoze

iLION12345_1 said:


> Another thread where the self righteous Pakistanis are crying about what the armed forces do as if they know better than generals with 40 years of experience. You lot are sitting behind keyboards on a Defence Forum. You do not know the needs, wants and requirements of our armed forces. We can’t replace the Mirages overnight. They are not obsolete. Especially with the ROSE upgrades they have. That’s why the F7s, which are crash prone, are being replaced first, until then we need to keep the Mirages flying. These air craft are being ordered for spare parts since they aren’t produced by Dassault anymore. Can you people please think just a little bit before becoming Defence experts?
> 
> A few points to prove this deals need;
> 1. We get to keep our Mirages flying that have A much better safety and Victory record (27th February being the latest example) Than the F7s which need urgent replacement.
> 2. We probably got them for a price good enough for the deal to be worth it. Again, the military knows better. Not teenagers on a Defence forum.
> 3. Some people mentioned how “5 SU 35s” or “J-10s” or “‘Mirage 2000s” or “a few gripens” are a better deal. Can you please read your own posts and see the flaws in it? First compare the price difference of the jets themselves. Then compare how much time and money will be needed to set up a complex to maintain these, buy weapons for them, train pilots for them. Until then we would be at a loss of flying jets. And what the hell are we gonna do with 5 of a type of jet? Make a independent wing? Tf?.
> 
> *Please Pakistanis. Think before you post. *


Thank God you put this here for the slower members who keep up with daft mantras of "They should buy this or that"

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## Army research

Signalian said:


> Two major strike squadrons of PAF fly Mirage-V aircrafts. PAF uses Mirage III in in Air combat role and Mirage-V in strike role. There are two main issues, procurement and then upgrades. lets look at the three types of aircrafts that PAF wants to keep flying earnestly; JF-17, F-16, Mirage III/V.
> 
> JF-17 is being procured and upgraded by PAF. Whenever F-16 is procured, its upgraded by TAI and quality checked by LM USA, as seen in recent past. The Mirages have been extensively upgraded, the money has been invested already. There is obviously the ROSE upgrade, but the rest of the fleet has been upgraded to a certain extent too. Replacing Mirages still requires alot of investment, in the form of a new aircraft, which after procurement will again go through upgrades to reach parity and commonality with JF-17 at least or F-16 if its a western aircraft. The Mirage V which took part in LOC strike were non-ROSE but definitely upgraded.
> 
> During an analysis with another member here on PDF (cant remember now who he was). we observed that PAF Mirages squadrons are mixed, which means they fly both Mirage III and Mirage V in same squadron. Mirage III provides AD/escort and Mirage V is used for strike. Basically self sufficient squadron. However, the strike showed something different. JF-17 on escort, Mirage-V on strike, and now since PAF is getting Mirage-V's, this could mean that Mirage III would be the next to go after F-7P/PG's. The importance of Mirage III still holds since Ra'ad ALCM was tested on it. Operationally, PAF has shown that JF-17 and Mirage-V's are set to be paired together in an event of war.
> 
> Mirage V differentiates from Mirage III in terms of two more hard points, better rate of climb and a longer nose. Its also said to carry more fuel and more ordnance than Mirage III. The versatility of Mirage V can be seen by the fact that it holds two major dedicated roles in PAF: night time strike and Naval support. These roles are shared with JF-17 and F-16 now.
> 
> Coming back to procurement and up-gradation. The plus points in this acquisition is saving cost in terms of:
> 1. Weaponry: PAF wouldn't need to acquire and integrate new weapons.
> 2. Infrastructure, training, pilot hours, simulations etc.
> 3. Upgrading EAF's Mirages V's to ROSE standard is not required since, these can be used as spares for ROSE or other upgraded versions. Basically, if these aircrafts can help ROSE squadrons fly for another 20 years through cannibalism for spares, then this acquisition is worth it.
> 
> If they are deemed proficient in terms of lesser flying hours, then yes induction and possibly upgrades are possible. This would still depend, these can be used to replace other aircrafts or can also be used to increase inventory. In the former, replacing systems from old frames into new frames would be done, while in latter, induction will take place with better avionics and systems. Its up to PAF to decide the path, it wants to take.
> 
> Regarding Mirage 2000, PAF will see feasibility from all pov's. Cost of induction, infrastructure, upgrades, weaponry, training, simulators and finally frame life. F-16 still has production line running, it has a major MLU plan in process, not just M-3 or M-5 but also V-standard now. JF-17 has newer blocks coming in, probably upto Block IV. So cost wise., Mirage 2000 will always be costlier. Comparing capability, yes Mirage 2000 is much more capable than Mirage V. So Mirage 2000 justifies its cost vis a vis Mirage V, but compared to F-16 or JF-17, their capability comes at a lower cost than Mirage-2000. The Ra'ad issue still exists; which can be solved through a different platform or redesigning the ALCM itself.


Brilliant , but ofc the masses of keyboard experts know better


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## mikkix

We should buy f4 and f5 and it can surely destroy f35 f22 rafales and sukhois. I have no doubt. Good job.


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## Rahil khan

I hope i shall see those "newly acquired" second hand mirages built in 1972 get decommissioned in my life.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Rahil khan said:


> I hope i shall see those "newly acquired" second hand mirages built in 1972 get decommissioned in my life.


 this is pakistan where we like to maintain vintage things when they become obsolete we improvise and still maintain them. this in common term is call jugar.

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## Super Falcon

ziaulislam said:


> If you buy 5 su30 at any given time only 2 or 3 will be abke to fly..not enough for major strike you need 40-60


I said buy initaily 5 than build 10 anually to get figure of 34 and its SU 35 not SU 30 SU 35 far better than 10 old mirages


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## ziaulislam

Super Falcon said:


> I said buy initaily 5 than build 10 anually to get figure of 34 and its SU 35 not SU 30 SU 35 far better than 10 old mirages


34 are going to cost 3b$. Can you donate that money

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## Trailer23

Super Falcon said:


> Once they say they dont have budget than they buy this junk
> 
> If paf even buy 5 SU 35 far better than these
> 
> Look how stupud our thinking is egypt who dont have big threat than us sell them and buy SU 35 and we keep miss using funds on junk
> 
> Its proven fact we have money but not a willto get best
> 
> Quaide azam said pak must build its airforce second to none
> 
> But PAF doing oppsite buying second class jets willingly
> 
> Why d
> 
> Ontphase them out they dont offer much


Again with the Su-35's... I'm still not sure why some of the guys are obsessed with these machines. But I suppose everyone has their personal preference.

Moving on. Though you have credited these jets as _junk_, bear in mind that those flying junks were the one that carried the burden during the strikes on the 27th of Feb. It _wasn't_ the F-16's nor the JF-17's.

And coming back to the Su-35's. Do you think its that easy or smart to buy (any) 5-6 jets that have never been in the PAF inventory? Its not like _HERTZ_ placing an order for 5-6 Toyota Camery's. Its not like getting into a car, putting the key in the ignition & driving away. Pilots, Engineers, Technicians need to be trained...for Months. Not to mention the spares and ammunition that needs to be purchased as well.

The PAF currently have 90 Mirage III's 90 Mirage V's. We just get rid of *180 Mirages* & in return buy something we have no clue about.

Used F-16's would've made a whole lot more sense, but to acquire those we'd have to go through Uncle Sam & with all the heat that has recently been generated as of late because of the F-16's - i'm not certain if that would've gone down well.

And though, I do share your sentiments that by getting these old jets, we may have gone back a decade - but with tensions rising at the border, i'm not sure the PAF was left with many options based on funds & availability of equipment.

Sometimes you gotta take one for the team. Trust our boys in the sky. They are equally deadly in those beatup ol' jets as _any_ Airforce with modern equipment.

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## jupiter2007

With limited budget, we can not even build 30 block 2 planes per year unless we get huge foreign order.

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> 34 are going to cost 3b$. Can you donate that money


Eygpt


ziaulislam said:


> 34 are going to cost 3b$. Can you donate that money


With 3 billion we can get 36 F16 blk 70. Easy to induct and deadly

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## syed_yusuf

Paf has 2 squadron of rose 2and 3 mirage 5 
A attachment to CC's of rose 1
A full squadron of rose 1
An ocu mirage with mirage 3el 
A naval strike mirage 5 

Total of 5 squadron plus CCS

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## jupiter2007

Khanivore said:


> I'm interested to know how many would be in condition to fly. Can't hurt PAF to have 10-12 more on the runways.



I am sure majority of them can be upgraded to Rose 3.

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## SQ8

Nobody wants to force people to pay tax, keep electing the same thieves and ethnic/sectarian scumbags.. participate in corruption/commission riddled society by saying “thats just how it is” and yet have the guile to say “why did we buy junk?”

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## aliyusuf

syed_yusuf said:


> Paf has 2 squadron of rose 2and 3 mirage 5
> A attachment to CC's of rose 1
> A full squadron of rose 1
> An ocu mirage with mirage 3el
> A naval strike mirage 5
> 
> Total of 5 squadron plus CCS



Some members don't realize that the number of Mirages they are quoting are actually the original numbers inducted/acquired. They don't factor in decades of flying and attrition losses, air frames grounded out extreme old age and being cannibalized for spares. We have approximately 120 Mirages (all types) in active squadron service. I am not including some two seaters (not all) which are not primarily slotted in combat roles.

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## GriffinsRule

Rahil khan said:


> I hope i shall see those "newly acquired" second hand mirages built in 1972 get decommissioned in my life.


Wishing you a long life ahead

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## Rahil khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Wishing you a long life ahead



Thanks bro. Regards.


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## Sine Nomine

*RC400*


Thales, UK, Defence, Aerospace, Military Missions For more than 50 years, Thales has been at the forefront of the radar technologies for combat aircraft. Capitalizing on this unrivalled experience, Thales has developed the RC 400 for providing a cost-effective solution for light or large combat aircraft modernization. 
The RC 400 features all the advanced functions required on a multirole aircraft of the 21st century.
The Air-to-Air function with its advanced automatic mode management reduces pilot workload - search domain management, highest priority targets ranking and sorting - and allows better tactical situation assessment and mission efficiency.
Multiple scanning patterns as well as angular domain and scanning speed are automatically managed by the radar.

Advanced Combat modes with fast and automatic target acquisition and tracking adapted to hard target manoeuvres at short range; high quality of target designation associated to simultaneous multi-tracking and multi-shoot capability.
The Air-to-Surface modes adapted to various missions: Navigation, Surveillance, Target, Acquisition, Very-Low Level penetration.

The reference in its category
• Light weight and multifunction radar
• Modular design
• Adaptable to a wide range of combat aircraft

RC 400 KEY FEATURES

• Modular design
• Light weight: <120 kg
• Low power consumption: 3.5 kVA
• Different antenna sizes available
• High average transmitted power: 400 W
• Up-to-date signal processing technologies
• COTS components for obsolescence protection
• 1553 Bus
• Advanced ECCM features
• Very Low False Alarm Rate
• Flexibility and growth potential
• Efficient BITE and maintenance concept for reduced manpower and life cycle cost

With more than 4.000 radars and as many EW suites installed on-board combat aircraft for more than 40 air forces worldwide, Thales has a strong experience as equipment supplier, partner or prime contractor of combat solutions.

OPERATIONAL BENEFITS

Air-to-air function 
• Very long range, all aspect, look-up / look-down detection
• Automatic waveform management and antenna scanning
• Multi-target automatic lock-on and TWS
• Simultaneous multi-target fire control
• Single Target Track
• Combat modes
• IFF interrogator capability

Air-to-ground function 
RC 400 provides all the modes required for day and night, all weather operations:
• High Resolution Mapping spotlight SAR (picture)
• Terrain Avoidance (Contour Mapping for Blind Penetration)
• Moving Target Indication and Tracking
• Air-to-Ground Ranging
• Freeze / Silence

Air-to-sea function
RC 400 provides all the modes required for BVR attack of surface ships:
• Long-range detection
• Multi-target TWS
• Target RCS assessment
• STT
• ISAR (option)

Others
• Easy Air-to-Surface modes transitions
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/rc400
@ziaulislam @Tps43 @Keysersoze

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## Keysersoze

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> *RC400*
> 
> 
> Thales, UK, Defence, Aerospace, Military Missions For more than 50 years, Thales has been at the forefront of the radar technologies for combat aircraft. Capitalizing on this unrivalled experience, Thales has developed the RC 400 for providing a cost-effective solution for light or large combat aircraft modernization.
> The RC 400 features all the advanced functions required on a multirole aircraft of the 21st century.
> The Air-to-Air function with its advanced automatic mode management reduces pilot workload - search domain management, highest priority targets ranking and sorting - and allows better tactical situation assessment and mission efficiency.
> Multiple scanning patterns as well as angular domain and scanning speed are automatically managed by the radar.
> 
> Advanced Combat modes with fast and automatic target acquisition and tracking adapted to hard target manoeuvres at short range; high quality of target designation associated to simultaneous multi-tracking and multi-shoot capability.
> The Air-to-Surface modes adapted to various missions: Navigation, Surveillance, Target, Acquisition, Very-Low Level penetration.
> 
> The reference in its category
> • Light weight and multifunction radar
> • Modular design
> • Adaptable to a wide range of combat aircraft
> 
> RC 400 KEY FEATURES
> 
> • Modular design
> • Light weight: <120 kg
> • Low power consumption: 3.5 kVA
> • Different antenna sizes available
> • High average transmitted power: 400 W
> • Up-to-date signal processing technologies
> • COTS components for obsolescence protection
> • 1553 Bus
> • Advanced ECCM features
> • Very Low False Alarm Rate
> • Flexibility and growth potential
> • Efficient BITE and maintenance concept for reduced manpower and life cycle cost
> 
> With more than 4.000 radars and as many EW suites installed on-board combat aircraft for more than 40 air forces worldwide, Thales has a strong experience as equipment supplier, partner or prime contractor of combat solutions.
> 
> OPERATIONAL BENEFITS
> 
> Air-to-air function
> • Very long range, all aspect, look-up / look-down detection
> • Automatic waveform management and antenna scanning
> • Multi-target automatic lock-on and TWS
> • Simultaneous multi-target fire control
> • Single Target Track
> • Combat modes
> • IFF interrogator capability
> 
> Air-to-ground function
> RC 400 provides all the modes required for day and night, all weather operations:
> • High Resolution Mapping spotlight SAR (picture)
> • Terrain Avoidance (Contour Mapping for Blind Penetration)
> • Moving Target Indication and Tracking
> • Air-to-Ground Ranging
> • Freeze / Silence
> 
> Air-to-sea function
> RC 400 provides all the modes required for BVR attack of surface ships:
> • Long-range detection
> • Multi-target TWS
> • Target RCS assessment
> • STT
> • ISAR (option)
> 
> Others
> • Easy Air-to-Surface modes transitions
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/rc400
> @ziaulislam @Tps43 @Keysersoze


Are we actually sure they have the variants with the radar installed?


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## Sine Nomine

Keysersoze said:


> Are we actually sure they have the variants with the radar installed?


It's being said.

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## Keysersoze

I want people to look at that bombload and image what 3 or four could do to a column of tanks....the shiny kit syndrome is strong in this forum....



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> It's being said.


If so that's interesting. It means the mirage can have the SD 10....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We are kinda going backward in a way but forward at same time

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## Blueskiez 2001

mingle said:


> Eygpt
> 
> With 3 billion we can get 36 F16 blk 70. Easy to induct and deadly



Yeah and those F16 will come with strings attach if they arrive at all due to political situation. Do you think US will sell them. WAKE UP.


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## Army research

These are probably dirt cheap priced, out of the people complaining statistically only 2% actually pay taxes , 
These mirrages will work good as strike aircraft even the USA uses A10s and China uses A5s , both old aircraft yet they only carry bomb drop on ground force while important task of fighting enemy aircraft is left to good platforms kike f16 and jf17

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## HAIDER

not bad choice ,this is good airframe and lots of room for the newly developed defense system. don't underestimate this frame. This frame used to be a nuclear strike bomber. These jets also carries a Selenia ALQ-234 ECM pod on its centerline pylon.

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## TsAr

Oscar said:


> Nobody wants to force people to pay tax, keep electing the same thieves and ethnic/sectarian scumbags.. participate in corruption/commission riddled society by saying “thats just how it is” and yet have the guile to say “why did we buy junk?”


This is to much to digest in one go @Oscar kindly come slow on us Pakistani's.

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## litman

Dr. z[1]n said:


> it is funny to believe having "lack of funds" for almost all important military procurements necessary for the defence and security of Pakistan but on the other hand there is no "lack of funds" when these bastard zardaris and sharifs loot & plunder daily during broad dayligt , and that too in billions of dollars not in mere millions...


that's how these politicians have indirectly weakened the military. their massive corruption has taken pak in a economic crisis and we simply cant afford any high tech equipment. secondly our economy is too fragile to sustain a full scale war . thirdly we dont have sufficient fuel reserves to keep the country transport moving in event of war . wars are not fought just by manpower and weapons.

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## ziaulislam

Dr. z[1]n said:


> it is funny to believe having "lack of funds" for almost all important military procurements necessary for the defence and security of Pakistan but on the other hand there is no "lack of funds" when these bastard zardaris and sharifs loot & plunder daily during broad dayligt , and that too in billions of dollars not in mere millions...


It's the peoples money and they want it to be plundered


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## Arsalan 345

I think we should also try Japanese f-15.

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## airmarshal

I dont want to get into this bulls*it argument of 'why buy old junk'. The Air Force authorities do know a lot better than any one of us the reason for such a purchase. 

These planes were recently upgraded by Egypt. Can anyone knowledgeable please highlight what the package deal contains? The weapons, avionics and airworthiness of airframes.



Keysersoze said:


> View attachment 554281
> 
> 
> I want people to look at that bombload and image what 3 or four could do to a column of tanks....the shiny kit syndrome is strong in this forum....
> 
> 
> If so that's interesting. It means the mirage can have the SD 10....



Thats the 'potential' payload for display purposes.

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## AbuzarIlyas

Alan Warnes is a credible source of news regarding PAF, atleast he have close contacts with top brass of PAF. These Mirages will surely have ample flying hours left in them. An RC400 fitted Mirage V with BVR missiles in the hands of a PAF pilot can actually face any of IAF fighters in current fleet. The Mirage rebuild factory can do wonders and PAF engineers can customize an aircraft beyond our imaginations.

30 of such aircrafts can fill a stopgap of atleast 2 years i.e. PAC produces 30 units in 2 years which will be enough time to deploy BVR capable jets in CAP missions. I am watching CAP patrols of PAF from last 3 months, this operational readiness and war time deployment is enough for old machines like Mirages so we have to supplement the Mirage fleet on warfootings. Something is better than nothing.

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## Path-Finder

What HMD does it have?


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## batmannow

iLION12345_1 said:


> Another thread where the self righteous Pakistanis are crying about what the armed forces do as if they know better than generals with 40 years of experience. You lot are sitting behind keyboards on a Defence Forum. You do not know the needs, wants and requirements of our armed forces. We can’t replace the Mirages overnight. They are not obsolete. Especially with the ROSE upgrades they have. That’s why the F7s, which are crash prone, are being replaced first, until then we need to keep the Mirages flying. These air craft are being ordered for spare parts since they aren’t produced by Dassault anymore. Can you people please think just a little bit before becoming Defence experts?
> 
> A few points to prove this deals need;
> 1. We get to keep our Mirages flying that have A much better safety and Victory record (27th February being the latest example) Than the F7s which need urgent replacement.
> 2. We probably got them for a price good enough for the deal to be worth it. Again, the military knows better. Not teenagers on a Defence forum.
> 3. Some people mentioned how “5 SU 35s” or “J-10s” or “‘Mirage 2000s” or “a few gripens” are a better deal. Can you please read your own posts and see the flaws in it? First compare the price difference of the jets themselves. Then compare how much time and money will be needed to set up a complex to maintain these, buy weapons for them, train pilots for them. Until then we would be at a loss of flying jets. And what the hell are we gonna do with 5 of a type of jet? Make a independent wing? Tf?.
> 
> *Please Pakistanis. Think before you post. *


All u need to know, is there are more then 10 options avalible against that deal, but why we opted it just because PAF can get them in quick time, replace thier avionics, and upgrade them to JFT BLK 2 level, it's all r Jst quick fix while, if u think we can't get J10s on a loan from China then wake up wear your uniform and go to school???
Even though put economy is on worst of its shape but still, we have a strategic value for many powers in. East and west, it's not like you go for shopping vegetables in a market with no money in ur pockets???
whts the most concerning strategic project pakistan is doing in its territory???
I gss its called CEPAC and who is against it?
And who's thinks it's it's life line ???
deals just not happens because everyone wants money, it happens what interests and strategical gains it can bring?
Russia, China can be approached at any time and deal can be done at anytime but only you have a serious leadership in Place?
Pakistan still is in a much better condition then of sirya, who been supported by Russia in. The Middle of thier Civil War???
These mirrages r just a quick fix and that's all, but PAF needs a better deal then that, there r many options if u start using ur mind, J10s , J11BS, SU35s r good deals to work with



AbuzarIlyas said:


> Alan Warnes is a credible source of news regarding PAF, atleast he have close contacts with top brass of PAF. These Mirages will surely have ample flying hours left in them. An RC400 fitted Mirage V with BVR missiles in the hands of a PAF pilot can actually face any of IAF fighters in current fleet. The Mirage rebuild factory can do wonders and PAF engineers can customize an aircraft beyond our imaginations.
> 
> 30 of such aircrafts can fill a stopgap of atleast 2 years i.e. PAC produces 30 units in 2 years which will be enough time to deploy BVR capable jets in CAP missions. I am watching CAP patrols of PAF from last 3 months, this operational readiness and war time deployment is enough for old machines like Mirages so we have to supplement the Mirage fleet on warfootings. Something is better than nothing.


So u mean, PAC can develop a mirage 5 into a F35???
Everything has its limits, and these mirrages are too, Thts just a quick fix but not the solution

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## BATMAN

Mirages with RC400 radar, BVR able and HMD, while upgraded in 2008. What's wrong with the machine?
Especially, when it's coming <$5 million /piece, included all the spares stock!
I think this is the best ever deal PAF ever had for the mirages... or you think otherwise?
What people fail to understand, when any OEM stop production of a design, spares aren't available or are extremely expensive.
I hope some new power plants and loads of spares are coming with the deal.
UAE and Saudi Arabia has facilitated the deal. Otherwise, Pakistan had been negotiating this for years but a price tag wasn't agreed. we all know that.
Now the GCC states had came-up with a formula, which is acceptable to Egypt. Hence the deal is reached, otherwise by no means Pakistan have any strategic agreements with Egypt.

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## Type59

Mirages is our B 52. The B 52 will serve the US airforce for another 30 years. The mirages are good enough to be a missile carrier, h-2, h-4, Raad and more standoff weapons. Not the greatest purchase, but will act as a deterrent after 27/2.

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## khanasifm

Australian batch of 50 mirages along with all manufacturing jigs ( Australia had manufacturing rights and built its fleet locally) , many engines and spares were bought for Australian 27 million dollars that ~ half a million dollar per plan add another half a million or say million dollars for recovery guessing you get a fighter for 1-2 million dollars plus support and training already in place beat that

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## Thorough Pro

This is Pakistan where less than 1% of total population pays taxes and 90% of that too is looted by leaders selected by the 99% non-tax payers. 




ACE OF THE AIR said:


> this is pakistan where we like to maintain vintage things when they become obsolete we improvise and still maintain them. this in common term is call jugar.

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## Basel

Amavous said:


> Most probably 36 Mirage V (Horus) which were recently upgraded in 2008. Upgrades include RC400 radar, HMD, mission pods, MAWS & night strike capability.



What weapons package they can carry?


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## GriffinsRule

People fretting over Pakistan buying used jets should think more about operational requirements then just optics. Lot of points have already been made as to why this is a very good deal on many fronts, including acquisition cost to capability, supply chain/spare parts issues, capability increase over non-ROSE Mirage squadrons already in PAF, and JF-17 production so far and in the immediate future is going to be targeted towards existing F-7 squadrons.

In lieu of that, I wanted to highlight a couple of examples from much richer nations doing what Pakistan is doing right now.
Indian acquired 32 Jaguar aircraft from the French to use them to both replenish their fleet and to scavenge these aircraft for parts. That is despite the fact that India actually produced these aircraft in house and still has an issue with spares to keep its inventory airworthy.
They are also in talks to acquire 25 Mig-29 from Russia at $25MM each. These are partially completed airframes that have been sitting with the Russian bureau. These if completed would be to the Mig-29C standard and if they decide to upgrade them to the UPG standard would cost somewhere between 45-50MM each.
Canada just acquired 18 some ex-Australian F-18As that have already flown 6,000 hours each as an interim measure and will fly them until at least 2032 before replacing them with F-35.

PAF is basically doing the same thing ... acquiring used aircraft that are already in service to replace less capable aircraft in the short term, while it awaits its longer terms plans to pan out with continued JF-17 production (slow as orders depend on $$) and also focusing its resources towards AZM and next generation fighters.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Dr. z[1]n said:


> it is funny to believe having "lack of funds" for almost all important military procurements necessary for the defence and security of Pakistan but on the other hand there is no "lack of funds" when these bastard zardaris and sharifs loot & plunder daily during broad dayligt , and that too in billions of dollars not in mere millions...


Kid stop watching cartoons on whatsapp(fake news) and focus on the topic. All culprits should be hanged and made an example. Saying that when you point one finger at others the remaining four point towards yourselves.It pisses me to see when petty politics is brought down on Military topics.
Coming to the topic of Mirages i think the procurement is a wise decision. These western air frames have more life than their eastern counterparts B 52 are a living example. With all the maintenance infrastructure in place these Mirages will be our low cost bomb trucks for times to come.

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## araz

Dr. z[1]n said:


> it is funny to believe having "lack of funds" for almost all important military procurements necessary for the defence and security of Pakistan but on the other hand there is no "lack of funds" when these bastard zardaris and sharifs loot & plunder daily during broad dayligt , and that too in billions of dollars not in mere millions...


It is precisely because of the plundering these idiots committed that we dont have any reserves for a new buy.
A



AbuzarIlyas said:


> Alan Warnes is a credible source of news regarding PAF, atleast he have close contacts with top brass of PAF. These Mirages will surely have ample flying hours left in them. An RC400 fitted Mirage V with BVR missiles in the hands of a PAF pilot can actually face any of IAF fighters in current fleet. The Mirage rebuild factory can do wonders and PAF engineers can customize an aircraft beyond our imaginations.
> 
> 30 of such aircrafts can fill a stopgap of atleast 2 years i.e. PAC produces 30 units in 2 years which will be enough time to deploy BVR capable jets in CAP missions. I am watching CAP patrols of PAF from last 3 months, this operational readiness and war time deployment is enough for old machines like Mirages so we have to supplement the Mirage fleet on warfootings. Something is better than nothing.


I think one needs to look at what else is coming with the planes ie armaments. I understand that the Egyptians did not have any BVR capability, but could be wrong. So it is unlikely we can get appropriate missiles for RC400 to fire. We do not have source codes for RC400 SO mating SD10A s might be an issue unless there is a jugaar on the way.. We need to wait and see what comes along. However worse comes to worse we will get some spares.

A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> It is precisely because of the plundering these idiots committed that we dont have any reserves for a new buy.
> A
> 
> 
> I think one needs to look at what else is coming with the planes ie armaments. I understand that the Egyptians did not have any BVR capability, but could be wrong. So it is unlikely we can get appropriate missiles for RC400 to fire. We do not have source codes for RC400 SO mating SD10A s might be an issue unless there is a jugaar on the way.. We need to wait and see what comes along. However worse comes to worse we will get some spares.
> 
> A


And precisely these idiots were allowed by our educated idiots class ..so i wonder why do we bring this up again and again


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## denel

araz said:


> It is precisely because of the plundering these idiots committed that we dont have any reserves for a new buy.
> A
> 
> 
> I think one needs to look at what else is coming with the planes ie armaments. I understand that the Egyptians did not have any BVR capability, but could be wrong. So it is unlikely we can get appropriate missiles for RC400 to fire. We do not have source codes for RC400 SO mating SD10A s might be an issue unless there is a jugaar on the way.. We need to wait and see what comes along. However worse comes to worse we will get some spares.
> 
> A


I dont think they did have bvr; knowing the egyptian mentality; entire plane will need to get stripped down and built up and given grifo radar is available, plug that in to existing sagem set should be fairly straightforward. but as u note be prepared for a high attrition rate to salvage for parts only.

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## Hayreddin

Wise decision according to situation . 
There are strong evidences that all out war can be broke out in coming few months unless n untill some unusual event in region or world delays indians war mongering . 
Paf already got basic infrastructure , man skill , amunition and pilots trained on old mirages .even we get enough money doesnt make any sense to procure new platform , it takes years for new jet get ooerational with full use in any airforce. 

Yes one thing Pakistan can buy on urgent bases is new *long range SAM system* in good numbers with handful *anti ship missiles* and *anti tank missiles* to counter and dent indian war madness.

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## Fledgingwings

let em come!!!!!


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## araz

denel said:


> I dont think they did have bvr; knowing the egyptian mentality; entire plane will need to get stripped down and built up and given grifo radar is available, plug that in to existing sagem set should be fairly straightforward. but as u note be prepared for a high attrition rate to salvage for parts only.


I did not think so either. The US gave them sparows only due to Israeli concerns. I do not know whether they now have AMRAAMS. I did not want to say much re the mentality aspect but I can only hope PAF has done its homework correctly.
A



ziaulislam said:


> And precisely these idiots were allowed by our educated idiots class ..so i wonder why do we bring this up again and again


Bhai.
They were brought up on blood of Benazir firstly and then on the utter incompetence of Zardari. The educated masses never wanted them however our Jahil awam either out of blind love or m9ney sold their votes. Barring the idiots in power at the time who stood to gain from this no educated man in his right mind wanted them. There was however no choice and even though our current PM IS HONEST he is no intellectual genius either. But so far the best in the current situation is in power.
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> I did not think so either. The US gave them sparows only due to Israeli concerns. I do not know whether they now have AMRAAMS. I did not want to say much re the mentality aspect but I can only hope PAF has done its homework correctly.
> A
> 
> 
> Bhai.
> They were brought up on blood of Benazir firstly and then on the utter incompetence of Zardari. The educated masses never wanted them however our Jahil awam either out of blind love or m9ney sold their votes. Barring the idiots in power at the time who stood to gain from this no educated man in his right mind wanted them. There was however no choice and even though our current PM IS HONEST he is no intellectual genius either. But so far the best in the current situation is in power.
> A


You dont need to be genius just honest enough to hire the right people ..things have been slower than i would have liked but moving in the right direction


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## denel

araz said:


> I did not think so either. The US gave them sparows only due to Israeli concerns. I do not know whether they now have AMRAAMS. I did not want to say much re the mentality aspect but I can only hope PAF has done its homework correctly.
> A
> 
> 
> Bhai.
> They were brought up on blood of Benazir firstly and then on the utter incompetence of Zardari. The educated masses never wanted them however our Jahil awam either out of blind love or m9ney sold their votes. Barring the idiots in power at the time who stood to gain from this no educated man in his right mind wanted them. There was however no choice and even though our current PM IS HONEST he is no intellectual genius either. But so far the best in the current situation is in power.
> A


They have very very poor maintenance record; not sure what they are in for.


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## tarrar

Useless AF decision if true

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## Pakistani Fighter

Hayreddin said:


> Wise decision according to situation .
> There are strong evidences that all out war can be broke out in coming few months unless n untill some unusual event in region or world delays indians war mongering .
> Paf already got basic infrastructure , man skill , amunition and pilots trained on old mirages .even we get enough money doesnt make any sense to procure new platform , it takes years for new jet get ooerational with full use in any airforce.
> 
> Yes one thing Pakistan can buy on urgent bases is new *long range SAM system* in good numbers with handful *anti ship missiles* and *anti tank missiles* to counter and dent indian war madness.


No war coming


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## Foxtrot Delta

old birds.. better invest in JF-17 Block III heavily instead.


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## nomi007

we need to try for Qatari mirage 2000


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## Ghost 125

calm down everyone these aircrafts are for spares and spares only...no addition in squadron strength.
surely you all cant be that stupid to term spares buying as wrong decision.


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## araz

nomi007 said:


> we need to try for Qatari mirage 2000


I think we need to understand what we are saying. There is NO COMMONALITY between M2Ks and M3/5s. Which means you will have to set up repair/Overhaul facilities from a new, just like you would for a new bird in PAF. So are you telling me we should do that for a fighter which went out of production in early 2000s for which there are no spares and for which we will still have to beg the French and they will not listen to you. PAF has made 3 attempts to acquire these birds the last one in 2002 which did not work out. It is time to accept this bird will NEVER be seen in PAF and let go. 18 birds for 375 million when you do not have any money is a lot of headache.
A

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## Taimur Khurram

nomi007 said:


> we need to try for Qatari mirage 2000



Flying the same plane our neighbours have used for decades isn't a very smart move.



tarrar said:


> Useless AF decision if true



These Mirages will be used to maintain the current fleet. It's not at all a useless decision, especially when one considers how capable some of these Mirage HORUS aircraft are.

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## Ozee

Taimur Khurram said:


> Flying the same plane our neighbours have used for decades isn't a very smart move.
> 
> 
> 
> These Mirages will be used to maintain the current fleet. It's not at all a useless decision, especially when one considers how capable some of these Mirage HORUS aircraft are.


Flying same plane but in different manner... We are having more intelligent and passionate pilots ...


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## Taimur Khurram

Ozee said:


> Flying same plane but in different manner... We are having more intelligent and passionate pilots ...



They have flown M2Ks for decades, they know them FAR better than we do. The expenses of procuring a new platform that isn't even in production is also something that needs to be considered. The M2K isn't even a leap forward in terms of technology for the PAF, and we will only be able to order a handful of used ones.

The PAF's primary focus (in terms of fighter/attack aircraft) is Project Azm and the JF-17, both of which are better options than getting M2Ks, Flankers or Fulcrums, since our enemies have operated these aircraft for decades as well as the fact that they have serviceability, price and age issues.

The only new non-indigenous fighter/attack aircraft worth inducting are the J-10 and FC-31. But the PAF seems to have rejected the J-10 after considering it (Musharraf even visited a J-10 production factory IIRC), so I guess that narrows it down to only the FC-31.

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## araz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> No war coming


The war is coming all right. It is just amatter of time.


Taimur Khurram said:


> They have flown M2Ks for decades, they know them FAR better than we do. The expenses of procuring a new platform that isn't even in production is also something that needs to be considered. The M2K isn't even a leap forward in terms of technology for the PAF, and we will only be able to order a handful of used ones.
> 
> The PAF's primary focus (in terms of fighter/attack aircraft) is Project Azm and the JF-17, both of which are better options than getting M2Ks, Flankers or Fulcrums, since our enemies have operated these aircraft for decades as well as the fact that they have serviceability, price and age issues.
> 
> The only new non-indigenous fighter/attack aircraft worth inducting are the J-10 and FC-31. But the PAF seems to have rejected the J-10 after considering it (Musharraf even visited a J-10 production factory IIRC), so I guess that narrows it down to only the FC-31.


There was a deal for 59 M2k5 of Armie de air in 2002. The deal included spares for a long time along with decent armaments. As soon as the Indian interest arose in Rafale The frogs withdrew the offer/ went frigid and asked us to buy the rafale instead. PAF did evaluate the rafale but found it too expensive and so the whole deal collapsed. What was a good money spinner for the french is now rotting away. However I guess they got waht they wanted at 8 billion for 36 Rafales.
A


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## Taimur Khurram

araz said:


> There was a deal



There were multiple times a deal was almost struck, at one point, I heard there was even a negotiation for Pakistan to locally produce them. 

But alas, it never happened. One must wonder though, if Pakistan didn't go after nuclear weapons, how much better would our conventional firepower be? We could have had a fleet containing Gripens, many more F-16s, and M2Ks.

Never the less, obtaining nuclear weapons was the right move. They have safeguarded the country much better. 



araz said:


> PAF did evaluate the rafale but found it too expensive and so the whole deal collapsed.



The French are really charging high prices during these Rafale deals. I'm just glad India is wasting billions on a measly 36 aircraft that will be outclassed by the FC-31 once it's inducted sometime in the next decade (insha'Allah).

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## Pakistani Fighter

S


Taimur Khurram said:


> The French are really charging high prices during these Rafale deals. I'm just glad India is wasting billions on a measly 36 aircraft that will be outclassed by the FC-31 once it's inducted sometime in the next decade (insha'Allah).


So FC 31 is a Project AZM?


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## Hayreddin

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> No war coming


Hope so . And lets see


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## ZAC1

Modi ki rss r gonday election jitna ka bad ap ko batien gy...


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## Taimur Khurram

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> S
> 
> So FC 31 is a Project AZM?



No, the FC-31 is something else.


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## Sunny4pak

araz said:


> I think we need to understand what we are saying. There is NO COMMONALITY between M2Ks and M3/5s. Which means you will have to set up repair/Overhaul facilities from a new, just like you would for a new bird in PAF. So are you telling me we should do that for a fighter which went out of production in early 2000s for which there are no spares and for which we will still have to beg the French and they will not listen to you. PAF has made 3 attempts to acquire these birds the last one in 2002 which did not work out. It is time to accept this bird will NEVER be seen in PAF and let go. 18 birds for 375 million when you do not have any money is a lot of headache.
> A



Very Well Summed Up Sir.


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## junaid786

Why not consider SAAB Gripen JAS 39 .its latest and can compete rafale and is much less priced .


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## Zibago

Mostly for cannibalism

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## untitled

Zibago said:


> Mostly for cannibalism


...

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## mingle

member.exe said:


> ...


Aouch not me

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## Bilal9

My apologies if this news item has been posted prior. Replace 'Mirage' with 'Phantom'.

According to overseas media reports, the Pakistan Air Force has decided to introduce from the Egyptian Air Force. Twenty-five second-hand Phantom 5 fighter-bombers were added to complement the existing Phantom fighter fleet to enhance the Pakistani Air Force's long-range strike capability. 

Many people may feel strange that the Pakistan Air Force has nearly 80 F-16 fighters and 100 JF-17 fighters. Why continue to introduce second-generation fighters such as the Mirage 5? 

The Phantom 5 fighter-bomber equipped by the 
Pakistan Air Force is actually a very realistic decision for the Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan’s national strength is limited, the ability to purchase new fighters is low, all the replacement of existing fighters requires a long period of time, and the second-hand fighters are cheap, and the funds are limited. The Air Force is very attractive. The Phantom Fighter is also the main fighter of the Pakistan Air Force. It has a total of 180 Mirage-3/-5 fighters. The Pakistan Air Force has also established a relatively complete logistics support system to further reduce the cost of the Mirage fighter. Only a part of this phantom 5 should be refurbished to join the Pakistan Air Force, and another part may be disassembled as a spare part. 

For the Pakistan Air Force, although the Mirage fighter is old, the voyage and load capacity can not be underestimated. Take the Mirage-5 introduced as an example. Its design emphasizes the long-range strike capability. The maximum range of the aircraft is 4000 kilometers. More than 4 tons, these two indicators have exceeded JF-17, reaching or close to the F-16 level, but the F-16 is restricted by the United States, can not be used for long-range strike missions, the Pakistan Air Force ROSE upgrade of the Mirage series fighters, equipped The new avionics system, airborne radar and weapons have further enhanced their combat capabilities, so the last time the Pakistan Air Force countered the target in India was the use of the Mirage-5 fighter-bomber. 

This picture best reflects the Phantom 5 payload and long-range strike capability. 
According to overseas data, the Phantom-5 introduced by the Pakistan Air Force has also been upgraded. In the new century, the Egyptian Air Force has made a comprehensive improvement on the existing Mirage-5 fighter. Refitted with RC400 airborne pulse Doppler radar, missile approach warning system, photoelectric targeting pod, helmet display and vitrified cockpit and other new systems and equipment, the overall combat capability is close to the level of the third generation fighter, the Pakistan Air Force is now lacking Three generations of fighters, it is obviously very cost-effective to introduce these Mirage-5 fighters at a low price. 

Egyptian Air Force's Phantom 5, this picture is the upgraded state 

of the Mirage 5, pay attention to the difference between the nose. 

It uses the RC400 radar, this radar is the RDY radar light model. 
For the Pakistan Air Force, this phantom The greater value of the 5 fighter is that its avionics system has a lot of equipment from the Mirage-2000-5 fighter, while the Indian Air Force Mirage 2000H fighter upgraded avionics system is also derived from the Mirage 2000-5 fighter improved-Phantom-2000MK2 fighter, such as The phantom-5 fighters are equipped with the RC400 radar, and the RC400 radar is the RDY radar light model. It is basically the same as the RDY except that the antenna size is smaller than the RDY and the transmitter power is lower. In theory, If the Pakistani Air Force introduces Mika active radar-guided air-to-air missiles, the Phantom 5 fighters will be able to have the ability of over-the-horizon air combat, and will be able to compete with the upgraded Phantom 2000H of the Indian Air Force during air combat.

The Indian Air Force upgraded the Phantom 2000 and chose the RDY radar. The 
Indian Air Force has always used the Mirage 2000H fighter as the main combat aircraft of the India-Pakistan conflict. Before the Indian air strike attacked the target in Pakistan, it used the Mirage 2000H fighter. Therefore, after speculating that the Egyptian Air Force’s Mirage 5 fighters were obtained, The Pakistan Air Force will definitely use it as an imaginary enemy force, allowing the F-16, JF-17 and other fighters to conduct simulated air combat confrontation with it in order to gain experience against the Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 fighter.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirages are to us as B52s are to the USAF. Our bomb trucks have speed,rigid air frames,good numbers and are capable of further modifications. I would love to see a powerful engine in them to enhance their payload and speed. These deltas have no comparison in deep strike and interdiction roles and we have mastered them.

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## denel

Bilal9 said:


> My apologies if this news item has been posted prior. Replace 'Mirage' with 'Phantom'.
> 
> According to overseas media reports, the Pakistan Air Force has decided to introduce from the Egyptian Air Force. Twenty-five second-hand Phantom 5 fighter-bombers were added to complement the existing Phantom fighter fleet to enhance the Pakistani Air Force's long-range strike capability.
> 
> Many people may feel strange that the Pakistan Air Force has nearly 80 F-16 fighters and 100 JF-17 fighters. Why continue to introduce second-generation fighters such as the Mirage 5?
> 
> The Phantom 5 fighter-bomber equipped by the
> Pakistan Air Force is actually a very realistic decision for the Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan’s national strength is limited, the ability to purchase new fighters is low, all the replacement of existing fighters requires a long period of time, and the second-hand fighters are cheap, and the funds are limited. The Air Force is very attractive. The Phantom Fighter is also the main fighter of the Pakistan Air Force. It has a total of 180 Mirage-3/-5 fighters. The Pakistan Air Force has also established a relatively complete logistics support system to further reduce the cost of the Mirage fighter. Only a part of this phantom 5 should be refurbished to join the Pakistan Air Force, and another part may be disassembled as a spare part.
> 
> For the Pakistan Air Force, although the Mirage fighter is old, the voyage and load capacity can not be underestimated. Take the Mirage-5 introduced as an example. Its design emphasizes the long-range strike capability. The maximum range of the aircraft is 4000 kilometers. More than 4 tons, these two indicators have exceeded JF-17, reaching or close to the F-16 level, but the F-16 is restricted by the United States, can not be used for long-range strike missions, the Pakistan Air Force ROSE upgrade of the Mirage series fighters, equipped The new avionics system, airborne radar and weapons have further enhanced their combat capabilities, so the last time the Pakistan Air Force countered the target in India was the use of the Mirage-5 fighter-bomber.
> 
> This picture best reflects the Phantom 5 payload and long-range strike capability.
> According to overseas data, the Phantom-5 introduced by the Pakistan Air Force has also been upgraded. In the new century, the Egyptian Air Force has made a comprehensive improvement on the existing Mirage-5 fighter. Refitted with RC400 airborne pulse Doppler radar, missile approach warning system, photoelectric targeting pod, helmet display and vitrified cockpit and other new systems and equipment, the overall combat capability is close to the level of the third generation fighter, the Pakistan Air Force is now lacking Three generations of fighters, it is obviously very cost-effective to introduce these Mirage-5 fighters at a low price.
> 
> Egyptian Air Force's Phantom 5, this picture is the upgraded state
> 
> of the Mirage 5, pay attention to the difference between the nose.
> 
> It uses the RC400 radar, this radar is the RDY radar light model.
> For the Pakistan Air Force, this phantom The greater value of the 5 fighter is that its avionics system has a lot of equipment from the Mirage-2000-5 fighter, while the Indian Air Force Mirage 2000H fighter upgraded avionics system is also derived from the Mirage 2000-5 fighter improved-Phantom-2000MK2 fighter, such as The phantom-5 fighters are equipped with the RC400 radar, and the RC400 radar is the RDY radar light model. It is basically the same as the RDY except that the antenna size is smaller than the RDY and the transmitter power is lower. In theory, If the Pakistani Air Force introduces Mika active radar-guided air-to-air missiles, the Phantom 5 fighters will be able to have the ability of over-the-horizon air combat, and will be able to compete with the upgraded Phantom 2000H of the Indian Air Force during air combat.
> 
> The Indian Air Force upgraded the Phantom 2000 and chose the RDY radar. The
> Indian Air Force has always used the Mirage 2000H fighter as the main combat aircraft of the India-Pakistan conflict. Before the Indian air strike attacked the target in Pakistan, it used the Mirage 2000H fighter. Therefore, after speculating that the Egyptian Air Force’s Mirage 5 fighters were obtained, The Pakistan Air Force will definitely use it as an imaginary enemy force, allowing the F-16, JF-17 and other fighters to conduct simulated air combat confrontation with it in order to gain experience against the Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 fighter.


You mean phantom 4? What advantages will it deliver? its engines are fuel guzzlers.


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## airomerix

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Mirages are to us as B52s are to the USAF. Our bomb trucks have speed,rigid air frames,good numbers and are capable of further modifications. I would love to see a powerful engine in them to enhance their payload and speed. These deltas have no comparison in deep strike and interdiction roles and we have mastered them.


On the other side they are not effective for self defense. They require escorts.

US deploys B-52's after attaining air superiority over a territory. With no SCUDS, MANPADs or bandits around. Pakistan will never have this luxury. Multirole fighters are the need of the hour. With a click of a button they drop the A2G payload and then become air superiority fighters.

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## Trailer23

Funny, @Imran Khan bhai has yet to comment on the above discussion. Usually he's the first to curse out such ideas. I can't imagine if there was any truth to the PAF considering those Vietnam-era F-4's. All hell would break loose.


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## Imran Khan

junaid786 said:


> Why not consider SAAB Gripen JAS 39 .its latest and can compete rafale and is much less priced .


usa ki balls nhi uthai jati is liye



Trailer23 said:


> Funny, @Imran Khan bhai has yet to comment on the above discussion. Usually he's the first to curse out such ideas. I can't imagine if there was any truth to the PAF considering those Vietnam-era F-4's. All hell would break loose.


f104 nikalo kaheen se yaar used nya purana jesa bhi ho

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## airomerix

Imran Khan said:


> usa ki balls nhi uthai jati is liye
> 
> 
> f104 nikalo kaheen se yaar used nya purana jesa bhi ho



A-5s are better. Trust me.


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## maxpayne

Mahmood uz Zaman said:


> Very good decision in this time when War is at your door step . Remember the Mirage III/5 is the PAF’s _sole_ delivery platform for key stand-off weapons (SOW), namely the H-2 and H-4 glide-bombs (which are derived from the Denel Dynamics Raptor I and Raptor II , ranges of 60 km and 120 km, respectively) and Ra’ad I and Ra’ad II air launched cruise missiles (ALCM), which have ranges of 350 km and 550 km, respectively. The Mirage 5PA3 can also carry the MBDA AM39 Exocet anti-ship missile (AShM). Mirage 5PA3 was the PAF’s only AShW asset as it still operates from the PAF Air Bases as well as in time of war can operates from other sites(roads motorway etc) as Tactical Attack Wing.


you forget jf17 which can fire c802ak

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## maxpayne

Reason we keep mirages is the Same as India keep their jaguars

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Considering Pakistan is going thru Economic equilibrium management , it is appropriate that we should act according to our finances


Mirage V from Egypt , can be refurbished inside Pakistan, as we have a rebuilding and manufacturing unit


































If Pakistan's Rebuild Factory do their Magic , I would like to see the end result with new plane color scheme to identify the Egyptian Imported Birds

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## syed_yusuf

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Considering Pakistan is going thru Economic equilibrium management , it is appropriate that we should act according to our finances
> 
> 
> Mirage V from Egypt , can be refurbished inside Pakistan, as we have a rebuilding and manufacturing unit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Pakistan's Rebuild Factory do their Magic , I would like to see the end result with new plane color scheme to identify the Egyptian Imported Birds



23 mirage 5 hora doesn't need any upgradation. The can walk right into paf service

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## khanasifm

Mirage range is based on 2x 1700 liters drop tanks plus. A center line 1300 liters tank but with very high fuel guzzler 1950 technology turbo jet it’s combat range is similar or short of jf-17 with 2x1300 litres plus 1x 800 litres drop tanks 

But for less than million dollar (Ausies mirages were 500k each averaging), cannot beat that plus pac/paf has extensive infrastructure in place along with pilots with 1000s of hours experience

Lastly with multi role sqns ie each Sqn has dedicated role antiship, night attack, standoff attack , recon etc you get very specialised role vs multi role Sqn which is expensive deal training every pilot for every role equates to more hours flying and $$$$

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## Khanivore

I don't care what anyone says but PAF Mirages are beauties. 

By the way, is it true the Mirage IIIs are BVR ready to fire SD-10 (PL-12)?

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## Pakistan Space Agency

junaid786 said:


> Why not consider SAAB Gripen JAS 39 .its latest and can compete rafale and is much less priced .



We have the JF-17 Thunder.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Does anyone knows how much % of plane Mirage , we can manufacture in Pakistan
Since we had a full rebuild capability I was assuming we would be self sufficient 80-90%

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## 8 pass charlie

so 23-25 are coming????dats final


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## khanasifm

8 pass charlie said:


> so 23-25 are coming????dats final



What is the source 23-25? Why not all inventory which I think is more than that ? Unless this is worth picking up or what pac needs for reminder of fleet life


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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> What is the source 23-25? Why not all inventory which I think is more than that ? Unless this is worth picking up or what pac needs for reminder of fleet life


I think 36 r Horus and rest for spare parts. Horus according to@ Windjammer will replace existing planes including one new Sqdn. What I read they sound very good with radar and EW along Helmet mounted sight not bad

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## syed_yusuf

There are 23 hora and rest are for spares

Now it is up to paf to use these hora in service or used them as spares


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## Ali_Baba

Given that these birds have the RC400, *did France "approve" their sale to Pakistan*. If so, how does that stand with her relations with India and Rafale programme?

Given the mess with France training Pakistani Pilots for the Qatari airforce, it is in interesting!


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

When US sanctioned us i used to admire the French who filled in the deficiencies we encountered in that era. But now they are as bad as Uncle Sam. The thing i like about PAF policy makers is that they choose the best platforms(Mirages,F16) in the past which is paying us dividends.

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> I think 36 r Horus and rest for spare parts. Horus according to@ Windjammer will replace existing planes including one new Sqdn. What I read they sound very good with radar and EW along Helmet mounted sight not bad


whats interesting is what Air to air missles will we use with them?


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## Basel

mingle said:


> I think 36 r Horus and rest for spare parts. Horus according to@ Windjammer will replace existing planes including one new Sqdn. What I read they sound very good with radar and EW along Helmet mounted sight not bad



What weapons package they will come with or carry in PAF?

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## Gorgin Khan

Mirage Rebuild factory (PAC).

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If Pakistan is serious about Mirages might as well pick up some fleets from Europe as well
and just upgrade it with Home built Avionics package and rebuild factoring heroics

France operates a fleet of Older Mirage2000 , which may be a option considering France itself is moving to the Rafale platform

I am ok if PAF gets another 50 used machines and recovers 35-40 from that figure

Provided we can attain a Modern generation Radar / Weapons package for the bird constructed locally inside Pakistan , I don't have a problem with a rebuilt bird

I would like to see new systems
This minor upgrade can be done locally

a) Computer
b) Brand new Weapons package
c) Digital Dash board
d) Modern Situational Awareness Display








All acquired bird will be remade

Re-certified 

Retested 

Fitted with brand new parts

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## ziaulislam

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> If Pakistan is serious about Mirages might as well pick up some fleets from Europe as well
> and just upgrade it with Home built Avionics package and rebuild factoring heroics
> 
> France operates a fleet of Older Mirage2000 , which may be a option considering France itself is moving to the Rafale platform
> 
> I am ok if PAF gets another 50 used machines and recovers 35-40 from that figure
> 
> Provided we can attain a Modern generation Radar / Weapons package for the bird constructed locally inside Pakistan , I don't have a problem with a rebuilt bird
> 
> I would like to see new systems
> This minor upgrade can be done locally
> 
> a) Computer
> b) Brand new Weapons package
> c) Digital Dash board
> d) Modern Situational Awareness Display
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All acquired bird will be remade
> 
> Re-certified
> 
> Retested
> 
> Fitted with brand new parts


hello mirage2000 and mirage5 have nothing in common
also french arent stupid to sell junk they would rather sell rafale


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

French want to make sale Rafale or Mirage 2000 , money is money


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## iLION12345_1

batmannow said:


> All u need to know, is there are more then 10 options avalible against that deal, but why we opted it just because PAF can get them in quick time, replace thier avionics, and upgrade them to JFT BLK 2 level, it's all r Jst quick fix while, if u think we can't get J10s on a loan from China then wake up wear your uniform and go to school???
> Even though put economy is on worst of its shape but still, we have a strategic value for many powers in. East and west, it's not like you go for shopping vegetables in a market with no money in ur pockets???
> whts the most concerning strategic project pakistan is doing in its territory???
> I gss its called CEPAC and who is against it?
> And who's thinks it's it's life line ???
> deals just not happens because everyone wants money, it happens what interests and strategical gains it can bring?
> Russia, China can be approached at any time and deal can be done at anytime but only you have a serious leadership in Place?
> Pakistan still is in a much better condition then of sirya, who been supported by Russia in. The Middle of thier Civil War???
> These mirrages r just a quick fix and that's all, but PAF needs a better deal then that, there r many options if u start using ur mind, J10s , J11BS, SU35s r good deals to work with
> 
> 
> So u mean, PAC can develop a mirage 5 into a F35???
> Everything has its limits, and these mirrages are too, Thts just a quick fix but not the solution


First, please type properly, it was harder than the war of ‘71 to read your post.
Secondly, your post makes no sense, you literally repeated what I refuted. That’s now how the Air Force works. You can’t induct a new batch of “5” jets on a “loan” and get ready to fly them in 2 days. We’ll need to build an entire squadron for them, train ground crews. Assign a place in an airfield, make a whole new branch of PAC to maintain them, integrate them into our Systems and then fly them. But then We’d be at a loss of money, time, and flying jets. Please use some common sense, and if you don’t have any, don’t post on the forum. If you know better than the Air Marshals. Go take command of the Air Force instead of writing rubbish here.
This is a quick fix and that’s what it’s supposed to be. Until we have Thunders block 3 flying and we can produce enough to replace these, which by the way. We’re replacing F7s first because they’re older and more crash prone. Besides, the Mirages have an excellent track record. Unlike you on the forum, probably a troll. Good day.

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## Signalian

Keysersoze said:


> View attachment 554281


Not just that but the ALCM and stand-off A2G weaponry

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## ice_man

The Reason PAF will not buy mirage 2000s is simple

The enemy indian airforce has mirage 2000s for a longer period they knows its weaknesses and strengths first hand. Putting them at an advantage compared to our pilots and technicians. They will know things which we only know on paper.

Our technicians can fix Mirage Vs in their sleep. training them on upgrading and overhauling of mirage 2000s will take endless amount of investment in man and machinery.

The example is simple a mechanic who can fix a 1996 corolla cannot or will not be able to fix a 2000 model corolla as easily. 

So sticking to mirage Vs is easier simpler and cost effective. Rather than upgrading to a plan that is completely new for PAF pilots and technicians. Lastly Mirage Vs are our test bed for SOWs and air to air refuelling and crusie missiles. We can't compromise on that. 

Stick to Mirage Vs for as long as you can and as long as our budget constraints remain.

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## GriffinsRule

IAF operating is an even better reason to buy Mirage 2000. Learn as much about the top tier IAF airplane by just buying a token aircraft and learn its strengths and weaknesses to neutralize it.


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## SurvivoR

Excuse my ignorance but have we received them or still waiting?


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## YeBeWarned

@Windjammer @fatman17 any news about the Mirages ?

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## fatman17

Starlord said:


> @Windjammer @fatman17 any news about the Mirages ?


The process of transport has started

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## YeBeWarned

fatman17 said:


> The process of transport has started



If you don't me asking , how many units will be transferred ? how many of them will be Cannibalized ? and how many will join various squadrons ?

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## fatman17

Starlord said:


> If you don't me asking , how many units will be transferred ? how many of them will be Cannibalized ? and how many will join various squadrons ?


The first objective was to buy these for spares, but I'm quite sure some airframes are in good condition to be inducted in the mirage inventory. will they be upgraded for a specific role like night strike, depends on the availability of upgrade equipment. I wouldn't be surprised if another squadron is raised.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> The first objective was to buy these for spares, but I'm quite sure some airframes are in good condition to be inducted in the mirage inventory. will they be upgraded for a specific role like night strike, depends on the availability of upgrade equipment. I wouldn't be surprised if another squadron is raised.


About 30 airframes

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## aliyusuf

Any news of whether the Horus upgraded Mirages being transferred?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

fatman17 said:


> About 30 airframes


Would love to see them in Pakistan colours soon. These babies under a professional pilot will create havoc on the enemy.

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## Ultima Thule

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Would love to see them in Pakistan colours soon. These babies under a professional pilot will create havoc on the enemy.


Mostly for spare parts for our older mirages, mirages too old to be effective strike jet and limited payload (4000 KG) @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

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## Super Falcon

Coming from jew lover govt and we could buy new jets like J 10


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## denel

Super Falcon said:


> Coming from jew lover govt and we could buy new jets like J 10


Come friend, please do not use words like that. Appreciate it.

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## khanasifm

Most probably for conversion to spares to sustain current fleet for next 5-10 years

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## Super Falcon

denel said:


> Come friend, please do not use words like that. Appreciate it.


Dear fact wont change SISI has meeting with israeli agencies this is worldknowing fact what egypt has done in last 30 yrs against israel nothing

Fact is getting those old jets and upgrading them we can get new jets but in low numbers 

Remember qualitive edge was PAF big weapins once but new chiefs think they can win in numbers which they willl regret



khanasifm said:


> Most probably for conversion to spares to sustain current fleet for next 5-10 years


Paf is set like a computer as of they decided they will never buy new jets other than these vintages entire world is stupid decomissioning these and we are buying them

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## imrankhan7250

Super Falcon said:


> Dear fact wont change SISI has meeting with israeli agencies this is worldknowing fact what egypt has done in last 30 yrs against israel nothing
> 
> Fact is getting those old jets and upgrading them we can get new jets but in low numbers
> 
> Remember qualitive edge was PAF big weapins once but new chiefs think they can win in numbers which they willl regret
> 
> 
> Paf is set like a computer as of they decided they will never buy new jets other than these vintages entire world is stupid decomissioning these and we are buying them


Can someone please confirm which radar is employed by these Eghptian plane. Some say it is RBE-2 if it is true, please do not speculate


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## Super Falcon

imrankhan7250 said:


> Can someone please confirm which radar is employed by these Eghptian plane. Some say it is RBE-2 if it is true, please do not speculate


What ever is radar on these they are old and lack compibiliry if they are going to be used as kamikaze attack yesgood but they dont offer much

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## HAIDER

Super Falcon said:


> What ever is radar on these they are old and lack compibiliry if they are going to be used as kamikaze attack yesgood but they dont offer much


"Mirage 5 is a deal that has been under negotiation for a couple of years now. But has now been sealed. The bulk will be used to support current fleet but we could see some becoming operational too,” Warne stated in his report.

Pakistan was offered 30 Mirage aircraft by Egypt to supplement PAF’s existing fleet of Mirages. The Horus Mirage 5 aircraft were updated in Egypt in 2008. The upgrades include RC400 radar, MAWS, mission pods, HMD, night strike capability etc.
It carries French Missile Apporach Warning System.....

Don't underestimate these planes ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294

16 June, 1999
SOURCE: Flight International
Thomson-CSF Detexis is demonstrating its RC400 airborne radar to potential export customers during the show at a military airbase near Paris. The French company is holding talks to undertake a test programme in a Mikoyan MiG-29.

The RC400 is aimed at the retrofit market in the hope of boosting business at a time when sales to the traditionally strong domestic military market are flat, says Thomson-CSF Detexis radar division commercial director Loic de la Bourdonnaye.

Thomson-CSF Detexis says that, in its most powerful form, the RC400 has only 20% less range than the RDY radar developed for the Mirage 2000-5 and -9, while weighing half as much, at around 115kg (250lb).

This configuration provides tracking of up to 24 targets, eight of which can be targeted simultaneously, with automatic prioritisation of four. The RC400's modularity enables it to be offered in less powerful versions, says de la Bourdonnaye.

The radar can track a 5m2 (55ft2) target in low-altitude/look-down mode at 100km (55nm) range, says the company, and air-to-ground ranging is possible down to a "few metres" accuracy. The RC400 is compatible with European and Russian beyond visual range missiles, says de la Bourdonnaye, adding: "We have shown it is compatible with the latest generation of Russian air-to-air missiles." A test programme with MiG-29 design bureau Mikoyan is planned.

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## nomi007

when will 1st aircraft arrived?

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## imrankhan7250

nomi007 said:


> when will 1st aircraft arrived?


RC400 radar is nsidered as father or mother of RBE-2 radar. RC400 is the same radar which was refused by french people arguing that it will create a mini rafale in the shape of JF

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## maverick1977

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378
> and this old tweet from Jan 2019
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294
> Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
> *Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
> *Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
> *Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built




So sad! But what can be done, improvise and get some for spares till they are replaced by JF17

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## Zephyrus

Mirages are still very capable in the modern theater as was evident by their role in Swift Retort; They're fast, have awesome low flight characteristics; can carry a modest payload, and the only _nuclear capable_* aircrafts in our arsenal, any number of mirages are a welcomed addition.

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## Dreamer.

imrankhan7250 said:


> RC400 radar is nsidered as father or mother of RBE-2 radar. RC400 is the same radar which was refused by french people arguing that it will create a mini rafale in the shape of JF


If one radar that was planned for jf-17 (rc-400) can fit in a mirage-5, then why can't another? i.e. the LKF601E air cooled proposed for jf-17 block 1&2? Can mirages get a chinese AESA? ..........Or a homegrown one?

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## bananarepublic

Dreamer. said:


> If one radar that was planned for jf-17 (rc-400) can fit in a mirage-5, then why can't another? i.e. the LKF601E air cooled proposed for jf-17 block 1&2? Can mirages get a chinese AESA? ..........Or a homegrown one?



Mirages are on their last leg upgrading them with sea would be expensive and counterproductive.
While aesa would need larger nose cone and probably powerful engine 
Indians have also cancelled their jaguar upgrades due to costs.

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## Dreamer.

bananarepublic said:


> Mirages are on their last leg upgrading them with sea would be expensive and counterproductive.


Perhaps. I was just specualting if it's possible?


bananarepublic said:


> Indians have also cancelled their jaguar upgrades due to costs.


Perhaps, but the PAF apparently want to keep mirages in service for some time.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Have deepest respect for our PAF professionals. With limited resources they have maintained a highly formidable posture,that scares the living hell out of the enemy,they are truly second to none.

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## Deltadart

PAF should definitely create at least two more squadrons out of these Horus Mirages, but they know better.

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## Thorough Pro

Pakistan has diplomatic relations with India, we let their planes fly over our airspace, we let their trade pass through Pakistan to Afghanistan all the while Indians are actively murdering Kashmiri people and actively pursuing to isolate Pakistan and you are worried about Egypt's relations with Israel? who are you to object?



Super Falcon said:


> Dear fact wont change SISI has meeting with israeli agencies this is worldknowing fact what egypt has done in last 30 yrs against israel nothing
> 
> Fact is getting those old jets and upgrading them we can get new jets but in low numbers
> 
> Remember qualitive edge was PAF big weapins once but new chiefs think they can win in numbers which they willl regret
> 
> 
> Paf is set like a computer as of they decided they will never buy new jets other than these vintages entire world is stupid decomissioning these and we are buying them

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## HAIDER

Thorough Pro said:


> Pakistan has diplomatic relations with India, we let their planes fly over our airspace, we let their trade pass through Pakistan to Afghanistan all the while Indians are actively murdering Kashmiri people and actively pursuing to isolate Pakistan and you are worried about Egypt's relations with Israel? who are you to object?


It was Nawaz Shareef surrender to aloo ghost. Personal business and nationalism never go togather ...He sold the national interest for personal gain and surrendered Pak foreign policy infront of Indian business tycoons by not appointing any foreign minister during his rule.

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## Thorough Pro

A perfect example of "Sawal-eGundum, Jawab-e-Jow"



HAIDER said:


> It was Nawaz Shareef surrender to aloo ghost. Personal business and nationalism never go togather ...He sold the national interest for personal gain and surrendered Pak foreign policy infront of Indian business tycoons by not appointing any foreign minister during his rule.


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## imrankhan7250

Thorough Pro said:


> A perfect example of "Sawal-eGundum, Jawab-e-Jow"


Guys! What do you ink if PAF used RC400 radar and missiles on JF 17 block 1. 
As was planned in 2000.


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## Humble Analyst

Super Falcon said:


> Dear fact wont change SISI has meeting with israeli agencies this is worldknowing fact what egypt has done in last 30 yrs against israel nothing
> 
> Fact is getting those old jets and upgrading them we can get new jets but in low numbers
> 
> Remember qualitive edge was PAF big weapins once but new chiefs think they can win in numbers which they willl regret
> 
> 
> Paf is set like a computer as of they decided they will never buy new jets other than these vintages entire world is stupid decomissioning these and we are buying them


Well it is bad that such old planes have to be used but it really sad to see that a lot of people do not understand that Mirage is the only Attack plane which can deliver certain weapons. JF 17 is restricted due to its low ground clearance or it has short legs, F16 has its own restrictions. Under the circumstances Mirage is the most dependable attack Air Craft in PAF inventory. They are fast and can fly low

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## MastanKhan

Humble Analyst said:


> Well it is bad that such old planes have to be used but it really sad to see that a lot of people do not understand that Mirage is the only Attack plane which can deliver certain weapons. JF 27 is restricted especially it has low ground clearance, F16 has its own restrictions. Under the circumstances Mirage is the most dependable attack Air Craft in PAF inventory. They are fast and can fly low



Hi,

The good thing about the mirage is that it is very cheap---. Its loss will not effect the strike capability and there are many others on standby---.

So---at least we have one aspect of strike on different operational dimensions covered---from short to medium range---.

The one and the most important aspect that is missing is the longer range heavy strike---.

So---either lease some H6's or lease a couple of sqdrns of JH7A11's---.

What has happened in the Paf HQ it clearly shows that the Paf had been extremely lackadaisical in procuring the much needed aircraft---. They have always reacted rather than be pro-active---.

Their problem is that they promise big---and they do it out of training---yes we can---we are brave---we are strong---.

But modern weapons and warfare has brought a change in fighting and the thinking of the commanders---. The commanders knowingly state that they are under powered and keep harranging for more and more.

Case in point Gen Scharzeneger---300 k troops were not enough till he got around 550K troops against a third rate enemy and all the air power---.

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## melb4aust

MastanKhan said:


> The one and the most important aspect that is missing is the longer range heavy strike---.
> 
> So---either lease some H6's or lease a couple of sqdrns of JH7A11's---.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I would rather, PAF have some multirole, air/ground superiority fighters to perform this job than old generation JH7's. Mig-35 or SU-32 are better options instead.


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## HttpError

Apart from this deal, PAF should look into acquiring a new platform (preferably a twin-engine jet) for deep strike missions. We need to counter this Rafale threat which will be looming soon at our borders.

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## MastanKhan

Hi

The day of multi role when facing a very large enemy are over---. We have a unique geography against our enemy---.

We need dedicated strike crew & aircraft for bombing runs---. These coming wars are not going to be a cake walk for bombing runs of the past---.

Many a times the Paf has bragged about beating the USAF in training excercises---one time it was the F15's from germany---later it came out they were from ground strike units and not of air superiority---.

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## Army research

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> The day of multi role when facing a very large enemy are over---. We have a unique geography against our enemy---.
> 
> We need dedicated strike crew & aircraft for bombing runs---. These coming wars are not going to be a cake walk for bombing runs of the past---.
> 
> Many a times the Paf has bragged about beating the USAF in training excercises---one time it was the F15's from germany---later it came out they were from ground strike units and not of air superiority---.


Germany doesn't operate a single f15


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## MastanKhan

Army research said:


> Germany doesn't operate a single f15



Hi,

I never said germany used them---.

Hi,

I believe over a decade ago---I stated over here---all you need is a brick and put a powerful engine on it to fly---that as the range---and carry strike weapons and has the most modern EW package---you can rest assured that this system would work---.

A strike aircraft and an air superiority aircraft are genetically two different aircraft---.

In the past we have seen these aircraft doing both the jobs---but with the invent of modern anti air suppression weapons in the arena---their utility in their own individual fields would be enhanced and it has to be enhanced---.

The pilots are going to face a threat never seen before in the air to air combat---the bvr missile---so they will have to learn to excel in their own unique field---.

Why is a dedicated strike aircraft must for pakistan---I am not talking about Paf---but pakistan---.

It is because of pakistan's unique geography facing india at that certain angle and location of gwadar / pasni---which are way out of the reach of enemy awacs and constant surveillance---that when any aircraft lift off from bases in that region---they can strike a multitude of extremely importat & vulnerable enemy targets on indian shoreline from standoff distances at will---.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

imrankhan7250 said:


> Guys! What do you ink if PAF used RC400 radar and missiles on JF 17 block 1.
> As was planned in 2000.


The KLJ-7 used on the JF-17 I has 105/85 km range for Air/Land targets and can track 10 and target 2 targets simultaneously. The 7V2 version used on the JF-17 II has an increased air-to-air range of 130 km and possibly other improvements.
The RC400 was stated, by Thales, to have a 20% decrease in range over the RDY radar for air-to-air due to lesser power consumption. One edge it has over the KLJ-7 is the number of targets it can track/target simultaneously are 24/8.

Although the RC400 has inferior range that wouldn't have been a problem as the JF-17 program developed further. One advantage that would've come of this would've been the compatibility of the radar with Erieye AEWACS. Diminishing the need to operate another platform (ZDK-03).
Personally, I think the JF-17 should've had more Western origin subsystems to reduce dependency on the Chinese and to have a more of an export appeal.

How does the RC400 and the ground attack capabilities of the Horus compare to the Grifo M3/ SAGEM FLIR and our ROSE I/III and how likely is it that at least some of these birds might become operational?

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## Dazzler

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> The KLJ-7 used on the JF-17 I has 105/85 km range for Air/Land targets and can track 10 and target 2 targets simultaneously. The 7V2 version used on the JF-17 II has an increased air-to-air range of 130 km and possibly other improvements.
> The RC400 was stated, by Thales, to have a 20% decrease in range over the RDY radar for air-to-air due to lesser power consumption. One edge it has over the KLJ-7 is the number of targets it can track/target simultaneously are 24/8.
> 
> Although the RC400 has inferior range that wouldn't have been a problem as the JF-17 program developed further. One advantage that would've come of this would've been the compatibility of the radar with Erieye AEWACS. Diminishing the need to operate another platform (ZDK-03).
> Personally, I think the JF-17 should've had more Western origin subsystems to reduce dependency on the Chinese and to have a more of an export appeal.
> 
> How does the RC400 and the ground attack capabilities of the Horus compare to the Grifo M3/ SAGEM FLIR and our ROSE I/III and how likely is it that at least some of these birds might become operational?



RC-400 is roughly equal to Grifo M3 in range and engagement modes. KLJ-7V2 is better than both in general performance.

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## Arsalan

Most of these will go to support existing fleet with 8 to 12 planes PROBABLY going operational.

Equipped with H2, H4, REK and they give a decent CHEAP strike platform

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## jupiter2007

Arsalan said:


> Most of these will go to support existing fleet with 8 to 12 planes PROBABLY going operational.
> 
> Equipped with H2, H4, REK and they give a decent CHEAP strike platform



If the frames are good, these should be upgraded to rose block4 program.


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## ssethii

Who else thinks these aircraft will be rebuilt and upgraded to increase their utility and life. Plus it would give insight to the french radar systems.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

jupiter2007 said:


> If the frames are good, these should be upgraded to rose block4 program.


There's really no use for ROSE 4 with the JF-17 coming up smoothly, and as much as a lot of people, myself included, would love to see the Mirages flying, economically and strategically it's a loss if we still have them in service once the JF-17 concludes production.



ssethii said:


> Who else thinks these aircraft will be rebuilt and upgraded to increase their utility and life. Plus it would give insight to the french radar systems.


Highly unlikely, hopefully we see a couple or more fly as attrition replacements. The radar on these birds are downgraded from the ones on the Mirage 2000-5/-9 and more or less as capable as the ones on our JF-17's, so unless we want to develop our own radar system and want to gain some kind of crude experience in that, there's no use in doing that at least not until our education is reformed to the point our universities can give actual output to our industries.

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## princefaisal

HttpError said:


> Apart from this deal, PAF should look into acquiring a new platform (preferably a twin-engine jet) for deep strike missions. We need to counter this Rafale threat which will be looming soon at our borders.


JF-17 Block-3 will take care of every threat...

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## Ra's al Ghul

a noob question. why cant we have some used Mirage 2000s in near future to replace these ?


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Ra's al Ghul said:


> a noob question. why cant we have some used Mirage 2000s in near future to replace these ?


Why get a new platform and all the associated complexities, logistics/maintenance/training etc. when we're already replacing them with a platform we operate.

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## Ra's al Ghul

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Why get a new platform and all the associated complexities, logistics/maintenance/training etc. when we're already replacing them with a platform we operate.



you mean with JF-17 ? how can be jf-17 is equal to mirages ? IMHO, mirages are strike planes. jf-17 is multirole but i dont think it fits the bill of mirages.

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## Raider 21

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378
> and this old tweet from Jan 2019
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294
> Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
> *Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
> *Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
> *Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built


Could have considered Egyptian Mirage 2000s. But guess they will go with what they can afford and what they want.

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## ziaulislam

Knuckles said:


> Could have considered Egyptian Mirage 2000s. But guess they will go with what they can afford and what they want.


if some will be brought into service is there any possibility of equipping them with BVRs..and which ones?

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## PakShaheen79

PAF will have to adopt a radical change in its operational doctrine before we can see any heavy bomber or strike platform in it.

For now, PAF is focused on defending our airspace and providing assistance to two sister forces (though capability is only limited there). For deep strike, Pakistan's doctrine is based on medium range ballistic missiles. PAF needs to adopt deep strike as an integral part of its operational doctrine. Ballistic missiles will face a lots of problems in the war to hit high value target with precision. Till date, air launched stand off weapons are the best way to take out such targets. 

PAF do have precision munitions but penetration deep into enemy skies is a problem because focus is on defending skies only. PAF need to become alive as far as this aspect is concerned. In the context of Indo Pak war, PAF will have to strike deep, behind enemy lines to cut their long line of communications. It would be effective if PAF draw plans to strike all major railways and road bridges connecting various parts of India. Similarly, Indian navy enjoys long string of ports from where they can sustain their ops, PAF must have the CAPABILITY to take out these naval bases no matter how far, how deep they are. It is in this respect, I always maintained we need to be part of a program like H-20 or at least initialize something similar at home. Such planes will always fly with fighter escort means they don't need to be extra sophisticated technologically. They must be able to fly really high and fast!


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## ssethii

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Highly unlikely, hopefully we see a couple or more fly as attrition replacements. The radar on these birds are downgraded from the ones on the Mirage 2000-5/-9 and more or less as capable as the ones on our JF-17's, so unless we want to develop our own radar system and want to gain some kind of crude experience in that, there's no use in doing that at least not until our education is reformed to the point our universities can give actual output to our industries.


There's a lot of R&D (read reverse engineering) going on these days in under PSUs and public-private partnerships. Some fail to see the light of the day and only valuable lessons are learned from these exercises. Education is a problem but our R&D is a product of jugaar ideology and a bit of luck here and there. Rest assured Pakistan as the last and the largest operator of Mirage III/V type has full control over its "supply chain" to keep it flying to the last drop of life left in those airframes.


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## ziaulislam

Ra's al Ghul said:


> a noob question. why cant we have some used Mirage 2000s in near future to replace these ?


there are few mirage 2000s available outside of france, france will not sell cheap for various reason and their financial interest in india..update of mriage2000 will cost atleats half of rafale with no grantee supply chain

and lastly it is a completely new aircraft..better get the eurofighter or j10 at that cost

unless france opens up to similar deal as mirage 5 and allow third party integration from italy and allows large amount of airframes that we can use this will not work

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## AMRAAM

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/522428-pakistan-to-buy-36-mirage-v-jets-from-egypt






Looks like PAF has no plans to retire Mirages sometime in near future.

Some of these Mirages will be upgraded in MRF which will certainly take time and then these planes will stay in service for at least the next couple of years. 

From the financial point of view and the success of 27th Feb strikes, this move makes perfect sense but given the evolving environment in the region and especially the modernization of IAF, isn't it a step in a backward direction?

What are PAF's plans to phase out Mirages with JFTs or any other platforms?


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## Dazzler

AMRAAM said:


> https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/522428-pakistan-to-buy-36-mirage-v-jets-from-egypt
> 
> View attachment 577712
> 
> 
> Looks like PAF has no plans to retire Mirages sometime in near future.
> 
> Some of these Mirages will be upgraded in MRF which will certainly take time and then these planes will stay in service for at least the next couple of years.
> 
> From the financial point of view and the success of 27th Feb strikes, this move makes perfect sense but given the evolving environment in the region and especially the modernization of IAF, isn't it a step in a backward direction?
> 
> What are PAF's plans to phase out Mirages with JFTs or any other platforms?



If true, most of these will be used for spares. Only airworthy airframes will be put into active service.

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## Imran Khan

ohhhhh common you scrap yard

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## Ultima Thule

AMRAAM said:


> https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/522428-pakistan-to-buy-36-mirage-v-jets-from-egypt
> 
> View attachment 577712
> 
> 
> Looks like PAF has no plans to retire Mirages sometime in near future.
> 
> Some of these Mirages will be upgraded in MRF which will certainly take time and then these planes will stay in service for at least the next couple of years.
> 
> From the financial point of view and the success of 27th Feb strikes, this move makes perfect sense but given the evolving environment in the region and especially the modernization of IAF, isn't it a step in a backward direction?
> 
> What are PAF's plans to phase out Mirages with JFTs or any other platforms?


similar thread is already running on PAF section why you started a new thread @AMRAAM 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...batch-of-egyptian-air-force-mirage-vs.614217/
@waz @The Eagle @Horus please merge or close this thread thanks


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## Basel

Why new thread for this news?? Its already discussed on mirage thread.

@The Eagle

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## AMRAAM

pakistanipower said:


> similar thread is already running on PAF section why you started a new thread @AMRAAM
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...batch-of-egyptian-air-force-mirage-vs.614217/
> @waz @The Eagle @Horus please merge or close this thread thanks



@pakistanipower I couldn't find that thread when I was creating it. Yes, it can be closed or merged with that.


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## Ultima Thule

AMRAAM said:


> @pakistanipower I couldn't find that thread when I was creating it. Yes, it can be closed or merged with that.


LOOK AT THE LINK I POSTED THIS THREAD IS RUNNING SINCE APRIL 17 AND COULDN'T FIND IT, YOU HAVE EYE OR SOMETHING OR SHOULD POST ON A MIRAGE STICKY/MAIN THREAD @AMRAAM


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## Cool_Soldier

Any definite to arrive these old birds to Pakistan?


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## Mir Shahzain

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/522428-pakistan-to-buy-36-mirage-v-jets-from-egypt


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## Ultima Thule

Mir Shahzain said:


> https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/522428-pakistan-to-buy-36-mirage-v-jets-from-egypt


Why you started this thread, which is already running on PDF since April of this year @waz @The Eagle please delete this thread 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...batch-of-egyptian-air-force-mirage-vs.614217/


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## Mir Shahzain

ISLAMABAD: The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation.

Pakistan's Air Force is expected to seal a contract with Egypt to purchase upgraded Dassault Mirage-V combat aircraft. The two countries have been negotiating the contract for years and now the final contract may see the light of day because the Pakistan Air Force wanted these fighter jets to strengthen its existing squadron of jets.

"Negotiations to purchase 36 such aircrafts almost reached the final stage", one of the person familiar with the negotiations said. These jets were retired from service by the Egyptian Air Force long ago, so Pakistan will have to refurbish them before pressing the aircraft into service.

The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation, like in the past when it has upgraded dozens of Mirage-III/Vs with Italian radars and other electronics at the Mirage Rebuild Factory, established by the Pakistan Air Force in 1978.

Pakistan's Air Force has been operating Mirage combat jets for the last five decades and despite the induction of the JF-17, the force planned to put on hold the retirement of the Mirage in the absence of better weaponry. Over the past five decades, Pakistan has purchased nearly 150 Mirage III/V fighters. The force had in the past also bought retired Mirage-III from Australia.

The Mirage V is a dedicated ground-attack variant of the Mirage III, with greater space for fuel, in place of avionics. The Dassault-made Mirage jet received major attention earlier in February when the Indian Air Force carried out an aerial strike using the Mirage 2000 fighter jet to destroy alleged terror infrastructure in Balakot inside Pakistan. Nevertheless, the only common feature of the Mirage V and the Indian Air Force's Mirage 2000 is their "delta wing" design.

The relationship between the two nuclear-armed countries once again nosedived in August after New Delhi decided to revoke the special status granted to the disputed Kashmir region. While India called the decision an "internal affair", Pakistan has argued at several international fora including at United Nations that it is a violation of bilateral agreements and the Vienna Convention.

Pakistan's military has vowed to go to "any extent" to provide justice to the Kashmiri people and it has deployed hundreds of elite commandos near the Line of Control - a de facto border that separates the Kashmir region between the two countries. The Pakistani Air Force also deployed its frontline jets at the forward air base Skardu near Ladakh last month to ward off any Balakot-like strike by India.

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## Ultima Thule

Mir Shahzain said:


> ISLAMABAD: The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation.
> 
> Pakistan's Air Force is expected to seal a contract with Egypt to purchase upgraded Dassault Mirage-V combat aircraft. The two countries have been negotiating the contract for years and now the final contract may see the light of day because the Pakistan Air Force wanted these fighter jets to strengthen its existing squadron of jets.
> 
> "Negotiations to purchase 36 such aircrafts almost reached the final stage", one of the person familiar with the negotiations said. These jets were retired from service by the Egyptian Air Force long ago, so Pakistan will have to refurbish them before pressing the aircraft into service.
> 
> The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation, like in the past when it has upgraded dozens of Mirage-III/Vs with Italian radars and other electronics at the Mirage Rebuild Factory, established by the Pakistan Air Force in 1978.
> 
> Pakistan's Air Force has been operating Mirage combat jets for the last five decades and despite the induction of the JF-17, the force planned to put on hold the retirement of the Mirage in the absence of better weaponry. Over the past five decades, Pakistan has purchased nearly 150 Mirage III/V fighters. The force had in the past also bought retired Mirage-III from Australia.
> 
> The Mirage V is a dedicated ground-attack variant of the Mirage III, with greater space for fuel, in place of avionics. The Dassault-made Mirage jet received major attention earlier in February when the Indian Air Force carried out an aerial strike using the Mirage 2000 fighter jet to destroy alleged terror infrastructure in Balakot inside Pakistan. Nevertheless, the only common feature of the Mirage V and the Indian Air Force's Mirage 2000 is their "delta wing" design.
> 
> The relationship between the two nuclear-armed countries once again nosedived in August after New Delhi decided to revoke the special status granted to the disputed Kashmir region. While India called the decision an "internal affair", Pakistan has argued at several international fora including at United Nations that it is a violation of bilateral agreements and the Vienna Convention.
> 
> Pakistan's military has vowed to go to "any extent" to provide justice to the Kashmiri people and it has deployed hundreds of elite commandos near the Line of Control - a de facto border that separates the Kashmir region between the two countries. The Pakistani Air Force also deployed its frontline jets at the forward air base Skardu near Ladakh last month to ward off any Balakot-like strike by India.


bro this kind of thread running since April 2019 why do starts a new thread on this news @Mir Shahzain 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...batch-of-egyptian-air-force-mirage-vs.614217/


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## Amavous

One can guess the quality of defense Journalism in Pakistan by this. They are reporting it today after almost 5 months. And article itself is a rehash of discussion on this thread. 

Pakistani media should have contacted PAF officials as soon as Allan Warns broke this story. And our defense institutions are also to blame to some extent. They should break these stories via Pakistani media instead of international media, letting them in on more details and guiding them regarding defense related news. ISPR should look into this.

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## Liquidmetal

What about the latest iteration of the Gripen - it is very similar to the F16 and can be bought with an AESA at a cheaper price than the F16V and a natural dedicated connection with the Erieyes? If it is good enough for the Swedes who do not eschew quality it could be good for us too.

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## Shabi1

Liquidmetal said:


> What about the latest iteration of the Gripen - it is very similar to the F16 and can be bought with an AESA at a cheaper price than the F16V and a natural dedicated connection with the Erieyes? If it is good enough for the Swedes who do not eschew quality it could be good for us too.


Gripen and JF-17 are too similar. Gripen NG is in many ways the benchmark for JF-17 Block-3.
Erieye connection is via link 16 which is present even on our existing F-16s. PAF will prefer F-16s.

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## Liquidmetal

Shabi1 said:


> Gripen and JF-17 are too similar. Gripen NG is in many ways the benchmark for JF-17 Block-3.
> Erieye connection is via link 16 which is present even on our existing F-16s. PAF will prefer F-16s.


In all serious is the F16 available and is it affordable in the V configuration. The Gripen is an opportunity to strengthen our relationship with Sweden and would give us on par F16V capabilities which the JFT is lacking even in B3 upgrade. Failing that then the only choice is the Typhoon which I also prefer but can we afford it. For me Russian jets are out esp as Russia is still backing India and their military sales.

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## Dil Pakistan

Liquidmetal said:


> In all serious is the F16 available and is it affordable in the V configuration. The Gripen is an opportunity to strengthen our relationship with Sweden and would give us on par F16V capabilities which the JFT is lacking even in B3 upgrade. Failing that then the only choice is the Typhoon which I also prefer but can we afford it. For me Russian jets are out esp as Russia is still backing India and their military sales.



Gripen uses American engines.

We will be back to square one in no time; i.e., Sweden will need U.S. permission for the sale.

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## Nasr

27 pages to discuss Pakistan Air Force's purchase of Egyptian Mirage lll/V combat aircraft. It's amazing to see how we are unable to be objective in our discussions.


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## TsAr

pakistanipower said:


> LOOK AT THE LINK I POSTED THIS THREAD IS RUNNING SINCE APRIL 17 AND COULDN'T FIND IT, YOU HAVE EYE OR SOMETHING OR SHOULD POST ON A MIRAGE STICKY/MAIN THREAD @AMRAAM


Have you ever heard of the word politeness.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

TsAr said:


> Have you ever heard of the word politeness.


Some people dont know how to behave even when they are in their forties. I agree with your sir,beared the brunt as well.

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## SecularNationalist

The Eagle said:


> Do you know how this platform performed in last Surprise for India? Let's not just carried away being unaware of situation. In my opinion, addition as such is firstly not going to cost us much & secondly, will add more punch while thirdly serving the concern of being short in numbers. It is like adding more punch to the existing fleet.
> 
> And by the way, I am seeing two way traffic in this regard. @Khafee


What's the deal, how much we are paying?


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## araz

Liquidmetal said:


> In all serious is the F16 available and is it affordable in the V configuration. The Gripen is an opportunity to strengthen our relationship with Sweden and would give us on par F16V capabilities which the JFT is lacking even in B3 upgrade. Failing that then the only choice is the Typhoon which I also prefer but can we afford it. For me Russian jets are out esp as Russia is still backing India and their military sales.


Gripen was refused to us in 2006. I doubt the Swedes will change their mind now. Your overall expenditure would be the same as the16s . Gripen certainly is not cheap.
A

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## PakShaheen79

I don't know why we are not inducting FC-20/J-10 to replace Mirages. For how long these old birds will keep up with modernization taking place in other squadrons. If Delta must be replaced with Delta, Typhoon would be ideal but our leadership will never consider that and they will keep their defensive mindset going. J-10 is a cheaper and more easier to acquire platform compared to Typhoons. Mirages-V must be acquired to fulfill spare needs only. Even retired birds will not be available for ever. It is time to walk-away from these oldies and induct J-10C with ToT so that we can develop it even further.

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## The Eagle

SecularNationalist said:


> What's the deal, how much we are paying?



The suggestion is, very cheap and may turn out to be two way deal instead of cash alone. Let's see.

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## Super Falcon

Should have bought new jets they offer nothing


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## M.Kamran_Pak

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378
> and this old tweet from Jan 2019
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294
> Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
> *Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
> *Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
> *Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built


This will fulfill needs;
(1) Support currently fleet spare cannibalize
(2) Out of 36 some have been upgraded in 2008 with advance capabilities.
(3) Maybe PAF is somehow seems not comfortable with JF-17 for deep strike and nuke roles. These upgraded mirages will fulfill the roles.

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## mingle

M.Kamran_Pak said:


> This will fulfill needs;
> (1) Support currently fleet spare cannibalize
> (2) Out of 36 some have been upgraded in 2008 with advance capabilities.
> (3) Maybe PAF is somehow seems not comfortable with JF-17 for deep strike and nuke roles. These upgraded mirages will fulfill the roles.


What sort of HMD we will get along these jets plus any one has cockpit pic of Horus Mirage

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## M.Kamran_Pak

mingle said:


> What sort of HMD we will get along these jets plus any one has cockpit pic of Horus Mirage


Check out the details, it might help. 23 out of 36 are Horus upgraded. 
It has "HUD" not HMD.... Why an strike aircraft need HMD?
http://www.easternorbat.com/html/the_egyptian_horus_program_eng.html


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## denel

M.Kamran_Pak said:


> This will fulfill needs;
> (1) Support currently fleet spare cannibalize
> (2) Out of 36 some have been upgraded in 2008 with advance capabilities.
> (3) Maybe PAF is somehow seems not comfortable with JF-17 for deep strike and nuke roles. These upgraded mirages will fulfill the roles.


Listen, EAF is pathetic when it comes to maintenance; imo, these aircraft are pilot killers - they need to be completely overhauled first - most of the 'upgraded' would not non functional. Egyptians are the last people to be trusted in getting anything used - personal experience, they are worst of the bunch and liars.



M.Kamran_Pak said:


> Check out the details, it might help. 23 out of 36 are Horus upgraded.
> It has "HUD" not HMD.... Why an strike aircraft need HMD?
> http://www.easternorbat.com/html/the_egyptian_horus_program_eng.html


Correct- i take their claim of HMD with pinch of salt.

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## M.Kamran_Pak

denel said:


> Listen, EAF is pathetic when it comes to maintenance; imo, these aircraft are pilot killers - they need to be completely overhauled first - most of the 'upgraded' would not non functional. Egyptians are the last people to be trusted in getting anything used - personal experience, they are worst of the bunch and liars.
> 
> 
> Correct- i take their claim of HMD with pinch of salt.


I'm sure PAF has closer look before going for deal. And will completely evaluate, inspect airframes before clearing for flying.
The mirage overhaul factory is there to ensure.
We should trust PAF

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## Foxtrot Delta

The deal is not finalyet. I think j-10C will be in pakistan soon. Thats the most logical aircraft to replace old dying mirages and continue nuclear strike role. We wont need more than 36.

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## M.Kamran_Pak

Foxtrot Delta said:


> The deal is not finalyet. I think j-10C will be in pakistan soon. Thats the most logical aircraft to replace old dying mirages and continue nuclear strike role. We wont need more than 36.


It's a multirole fighter not a bomber/deep strike.
Even China don't use J-10 in deep strike, strategic/nuke cruise roles 
Secondly, JF-17 block 3 with (AESA, FADC, 3-axis fly by wire digital control, HMD, built-in EW suite that would free up hard-point. use of composite material to reduce weight thus aircraft can carry more fuel /ordnances as per mission need) these features will be at Par with J-10 then what's the point of buying new platform.
I have seen so many people in various threads want J-10 but it will not add much punch to PAF capabilities.

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## Signalian

denel said:


> Listen, EAF is pathetic when it comes to maintenance; imo, these aircraft are pilot killers - they need to be completely overhauled first - most of the 'upgraded' would not non functional. Egyptians are the last people to be trusted in getting anything used - personal experience, they are worst of the bunch and liars.
> 
> 
> Correct- i take their claim of HMD with pinch of salt.



After ROSE upgrade, there is no news of a new upgrade neither continuation of ROSE upgrades for ROSE IV etc. Therefore, these could be used as spares for 2 ROSE squadrons and 1 Naval Squadron.

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## Tipu7

Ra's al Ghul said:


> a noob question. why cant we have some used Mirage 2000s in near future to replace these ?


Expensive. Beyond our capacity to afford in large quantities.

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Expensive. Beyond our capacity to afford in large quantities.


are they really required after JF-17 Block III ?

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## Comrade

The sole purpose of getting these Mirages is for Mirage rebuild factory MRF and secondly that PAC nor PAF can afford to lose a JF17 in a deep strike role as a deep striking plane is always vulnerable to be shot down by both air and specially ground air defense systems hence the strategy is to keep the Mirages in flying states for as long as possible as losing a plane can badly affect its reputation and marketing strategies as a selling product.
Keeping Mirages flying is nothing else but to protect JF-17's program and marketing unless its battle proven with confirm kills recorded or deep strike missions performed across the borders.


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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> are they really required after JF-17 Block III ?


Well, PAF was once planning to develop combination of F16, Jf17 and M2K. Jf17 was suppose to replace F7P/PG fleet entirely and M2K were meant to replace all Mirage III/V.


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## denel

Signalian said:


> After ROSE upgrade, there is no news of a new upgrade neither continuation of ROSE upgrades for ROSE IV etc. Therefore, these could be used as spares for 2 ROSE squadrons and 1 Naval Squadron.


I thought there was capability of inhouse assembly for grifo M sets and all its integration points; i assume same plumbing from altas may also be used here?



M.Kamran_Pak said:


> I'm sure PAF has closer look before going for deal. And will completely evaluate, inspect airframes before clearing for flying.
> The mirage overhaul factory is there to ensure.
> We should trust PAF


Nope I dont trust their leadership.

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## Signalian

denel said:


> I thought there was capability of inhouse assembly for grifo M sets and all its integration points; i assume same plumbing from altas may also be used here?


While PAF possesses the capability, it seems PAF used non-upgraded Mirages for 27th Feb strike, which could mean PAF is not willing to upgrade anymore Mirages, even these ones from EAF.

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## denel

Signalian said:


> While PAF possesses the capability, it seems PAF used non-upgraded Mirages for 27th Feb strike, which could mean PAF is not willing to upgrade anymore Mirages, even these ones from EAF.


Yes that would make sense give the limited lifespan. But what is a challenge is mixed messages of not letting go of an old love machine.


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## Basel

araz said:


> Gripen was refused to us in 2006. I doubt the Swedes will change their mind now. Your overall expenditure would be the same as the16s . Gripen certainly is not cheap.
> A



But it has much better integration with EriEye AWACS.


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## araz

Basel said:


> But it has much better integration with EriEye AWACS.


It might but it is no good if it is not going to be offered to us. Look at the Indian game plan. They have held the whole aviation industry to ransom with their promise to procure the "mother of all deals". Meanwhile all they do is eat Halwa puri at the expense of the providers while things are politely or bluntly refused to us. With the Gripen the refusal was fairly blunt. It might also have to do with our weak financial position but none the less it was refused.
A



denel said:


> Yes that would make sense give the limited lifespan. But what is a challenge is mixed messages of not letting go of an old love machine.


It is a classic example of using a platform which in spite of its age is ideal for the role which it is being used for, is cheap and its loss does not give the enemy any moral victory. In IAF case if we down a couple of 21s it is not a great thing. However the MKI loss is a moral loss of a major frontline platform. 
On record I again want to reiterate that the MKI loss might have been due to idiotic and careless lack of apprehension of the enemy plan. I bet if the PAF had followed IAF back into Indian territory we would have suffered losses as well.
A

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## Basel

araz said:


> It might but it is no good if it is not going to be offered to us. Look at the Indian game plan. They have held the whole aviation industry to ransom with their promise to procure the "mother of all deals". Meanwhile all they do is eat Halwa puri at the expense of the providers while things are politely or bluntly refused to us. With the Gripen the refusal was fairly blunt. It might also have to do with our weak financial position but none the less it was refused.
> A



What Gripen offer best for Pakistan is its TAT and very low maintenance crew requirements which allow PAF to use less number of birds for more number of sorties.


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## denel

araz said:


> It might but it is no good if it is not going to be offered to us. Look at the Indian game plan. They have held the whole aviation industry to ransom with their promise to procure the "mother of all deals". Meanwhile all they do is eat Halwa puri at the expense of the providers while things are politely or bluntly refused to us. With the Gripen the refusal was fairly blunt. It might also have to do with our weak financial position but none the less it was refused.
> A
> 
> 
> It is a classic exam0le of using a platform which in spite of its age is ideal for the role which it is being used for, is cheap and its loss does not give the enemy any moral victory. In IAF case if we down a couple of 21s it is not a great thing. However the MKI loss is a moral loss of a major frontline platform. On record I again want to reiterate that the MKI loss might have been due to idiotic and careless lack of apprehension of the enemy plan. I bet if the PAF had followed IAF back into Indian territory we would have suffered losses as well.
> A


I concur, if they had crossed over then who knows what the attrition rate may have been. Bottom line, they were caught off guard but people learn and tactics change.

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## araz

Tipu7 said:


> Well, PAF was once planning to develop combination of F16, Jf17 and M2K. Jf17 was suppose to replace F7P/PG fleet entirely and M2K were meant to replace all Mirage III/V.


My dear Sir that plan has gone ghudday line for at least the last 2 decades if not longer. I think PAF is milking theM3/5 cow till the udders come into their hands. So you may yet see them in use for the next 10 years in limited numbers.
A


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## Ultima Thule

Basel said:


> What Gripen offer best for Pakistan is its TAT and very low maintenance crew requirements which allow PAF to use less number of birds for more number of sorties.


But sir currently Sweden is currently denying Grippen to us @Basel sir


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## araz

denel said:


> I concur, if they had crossed over then who knows what the attrition rate may have been. Bottom line, they were caught off guard but people learn and tactics change.


The next time it will be Plan B. The IAF is already demonstrating a clear lack of initiative with regards to thheir incursions into Paklands. I guess " once butten twice shy".



Basel said:


> What Gripen offer best for Pakistan is its TAT and very low maintenance crew requirements which allow PAF to use less number of birds for more number of sorties.


The Jft gives us all of that and much more at a fraction of a cost. The capabilities are in the ball park at 1/3 rd the cost so NOW Gripen offers us nothing more. 
A

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## denel

pakistanipower said:


> But sir currently Sweden is currently denying Grippen to us @Basel sir


listen. you dont get it; this is US engine that will be sanctioned. BEst to avoid anything that has restrictions. Look at the helos. Same kak.

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## Deltadart

We seems to go in circles whenever we acquire some plane. Out come the fantasies of getting su35, m2k, f16, grippen. In reality either we can't afford them or we were denied the equipment on political or strategic grounds.
This situation is not going to change in the foreseeable future. We keep going for Mirages because we have the infrastructure in place and they can be acquired at reasonable price. For the f16s, the same logic applies. They are our flag ship and our sharpest sword, but the down side is that they are highly sanctioned. So this is our dilemma.

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## Basel

pakistanipower said:


> But sir currently Sweden is currently denying Grippen to us @Basel sir



They objected on 2 things during Mush era, 1 Pakistan don't have elected Government 2 they don't sell weapons to hostile areas or region, first is resolved second can be resolved with good diplomacy.

Gripen-NG in numbers of around 60 or possibly 72 with JFT and F-16/will be much better than having 20-40 latest EFTs or Su-35s.



araz said:


> The next time it will be Plan B. The IAF is already demonstrating a clear lack of initiative with regards to thheir incursions into Paklands. I guess " once butten twice shy".
> 
> 
> The Jft gives us all of that and much more at a fraction of a cost. The capabilities are in the ball park at 1/3 rd the cost so NOW Gripen offers us nothing more.
> A



Gripen NG is dream of any tech support team, all is not about what aircraft can carry and have, although in NCW level Gripen-NG is superior to what JFT or F-16s offer but why Gripen-NG is suitable for Pakistan is the concept its built on.


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## TsAr

araz said:


> The next time it will be Plan B. The IAF is already demonstrating a clear lack of initiative with regards to thheir incursions into Paklands. I guess " once butten twice shy".
> A


The indians have already started strengthening their SAM defenses. Just yesterday I was reading that an order has been placed for Akash systems. But the preparation are also going on this side of the border as well.

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## Tipu7

araz said:


> My dear Sir that plan has gone ghudday line for at least the last 2 decades if not longer. I think PAF is milking theM3/5 cow till the udders come into their hands. So you may yet see them in use for the next 10 years in limited numbers.
> A


Sir PAF will be 'mirage free' by 2025. Some units, however, will remain in reserves for strategic strike role.

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## ziaulislam

Tipu7 said:


> Sir PAF will be 'mirage free' by 2025. Some units, however, will remain in reserves for strategic strike role.


Thats only possible if PAF decides to brung the numbers down to 250 which is barely 15 squardons
Per last chief he wants 400 ac..
Even if we assume 350/19 squardons PAF will be short of 100..

Where are these 100 going to come..unless we get lucky and uncle sam generous about used f16s things look very gloomy

Thunders so far will stop at 183 around 2024, unless block 4 is planned

In nutshell PAF needs at least 100 & preferably 150 additional fighters apart from planned jf17 to get rid of mirage and i dont see that happening till 2030-35



M.Kamran_Pak said:


> This will fulfill needs;
> (1) Support currently fleet spare cannibalize
> (2) Out of 36 some have been upgraded in 2008 with advance capabilities.
> (3) Maybe PAF is somehow seems not comfortable with JF-17 for deep strike and nuke roles. These upgraded mirages will fulfill the roles.


Disagree about 3..its numbers game


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## Tipu7

ziaulislam said:


> Thats only possible if PAF decides to brung the numbers down to 250 which is barely 15 squardons
> Per last chief he wants 400 ac..
> Even if we assume 350/19 squardons PAF will be short of 100..
> 
> Where are these 100 going to come..unless we get lucky and uncle sam generous about used f16s things look very gloomy
> 
> Thunders so far will stop at 183 around 2024, unless block 4 is planned
> 
> In nutshell PAF needs at least 100 & preferably 150 additional fighters apart from planned jf17 to get rid of mirage and i dont see that happening till 2030-35


Don't consider the numbers of Mirages as they won't be replaced one on one.
There are roughly 7 squadrons of Mirages, and will be replaced by 7 squadrons of better option.

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## New World

Tipu7 said:


> Don't consider the numbers of Mirages as they won't be replaced one on one.
> There are roughly 7 squadrons of Mirages, and will be replaced by 7 squadrons of better option.



Is there any news of PN getting fighter jets..
@Khafee @Zarvan @Rashid Mahmood


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## Tipu7

New World said:


> Is there any news of PN getting fighter jets..
> @Khafee @Zarvan @Rashid Mahmood


No fighter jets for PN


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## ziaulislam

Tipu7 said:


> Don't consider the numbers of Mirages as they won't be replaced one on one.
> There are roughly 7 squadrons of Mirages, and will be replaced by 7 squadrons of better option.


how come 250 aircraft will constitute 19 squadrons..that is barely 12 aircraft a squardon..?


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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Well, PAF was once planning to develop combination of F16, Jf17 and M2K. Jf17 was suppose to replace F7P/PG fleet entirely and M2K were meant to replace all Mirage III/V.


Arrival of JF-17 block-III has conveniently pushed aside M2K and J-10.
Stealth should be inducted next.

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## araz

Tipu7 said:


> Sir PAF will be 'mirage free' by 2025. Some units, however, will remain in reserves for strategic strike role.


If the numbers being produced by PAF of JFT are true we will only be able to retire the PGs by 2025. Unless we get a separate bird or the 16s come in we are looking at running with M3/5s till 2030. This remains my assessment so I could be wrong.

A

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## Ark_Angel

Tipu7 said:


> Sir PAF will be 'mirage free' by 2025. Some units, however, will remain in reserves for strategic strike role.


False assumption. Deltas to Roll on till 2032.

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## M.Kamran_Pak

ziaulislam said:


> Thats only possible if PAF decides to brung the numbers down to 250 which is barely 15 squardons
> Per last chief he wants 400 ac..
> Even if we assume 350/19 squardons PAF will be short of 100..
> 
> Where are these 100 going to come..unless we get lucky and uncle sam generous about used f16s things look very gloomy
> 
> Thunders so far will stop at 183 around 2024, unless block 4 is planned
> 
> In nutshell PAF needs at least 100 & preferably 150 additional fighters apart from planned jf17 to get rid of mirage and i dont see that happening till 2030-35
> 
> 
> Disagree about 3..its numbers game


It's not "only" about numbers.... Initially JF was envisioned to replace all old airframes like A-6, F-7 Mirages etc. But JF is not dedicated deep strike fighter and it cannot match Mirage deep strike or strategic roles.
If you observe the block 2 and upcoming block 3 upgrades are focused on BVR, WVR, air defense and air to air battles. That shows PAF is not comfortable with JF as deep strike roles. Till any new platform (long range/medium weight) or project Azm Mirages are here to stay and fulfill the role of strategic and deep strike missions.

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## aziqbal

for old mirages spares are hard to find and the one we do get from Dassault cost a fortune 

these are for spares which is good

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## Ark_Angel

M.Kamran_Pak said:


> It's not "only" about numbers.... Initially JF was envisioned to replace all old airframes like A-6, F-7 Mirages etc. But JF is not dedicated deep strike fighter and it cannot match Mirage deep strike or strategic roles.
> If you observe the block 2 and upcoming block 3 upgrades are focused on BVR, WVR, air defense and air to air battles. That shows PAF is not comfortable with JF as deep strike roles. Till any new platform (long range/medium weight) or project Azm Mirages are here to stay and fulfill the role of strategic and deep strike missions.


Thunder was supposed to replace all of the mentioned above fighters as long as it was getting a French Engine which was initially committed to by the French in the year 2000-2001. All of the design was around that Engine and so was the the expectation to a certain extent. When the French ditched, a lot of things changed.

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## khanasifm

Ark_Angel said:


> False assumption. Deltas to Roll on till 2032.



It just the time required to produce the number of aircraft to replace and $$ available currently averaging one sqn per year and around 11 more f-7p/pg and mirage sqn left so at last 11 years


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## Super Falcon

Tipu7 said:


> Don't consider the numbers of Mirages as they won't be replaced one on one.
> There are roughly 7 squadrons of Mirages, and will be replaced by 7 squadrons of better option.


Forget replacing oaf will keep these idiot jets untill they start killing pilots


Chalti ka nam gadi is a theory of paf untill they fly lets fly no matter what they becom ed a target practice


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## ziaulislam

Ark_Angel said:


> Thunder was supposed to replace all of the mentioned above fighters as long as it was getting a French Engine which was initially committed to by the French in the year 2000-2001. All of the design was around that Engine and so was the the expectation to a certain extent. When the French ditched, a lot of things changed.


As far as i remeber engine was never requested from french..just the avionics and weapon suit


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## khanasifm

Hearing about these mirages since 2017 ? Discolored by Xxxxxx, let’s see if this happens


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## Sheikh Rauf

Isnt it too old for our fleet.. we sud be looking somthing twin engin aircrafts.


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## M.Kamran_Pak

Ark_Angel said:


> Thunder was supposed to replace all of the mentioned above fighters as long as it was getting a French Engine which was initially committed to by the French in the year 2000-2001. All of the design was around that Engine and so was the the expectation to a certain extent. When the French ditched, a lot of things changed.


The aim of JF development was to get rid of Western influence and especially US. As their military sales are always attached with strings of foreign policy agenda.
Also at one point Pakistan even rejected Gripen in Musharraf era as Gripen has US engine.
So it is highly unlikely that French Engine or Avionics, radar, fire control system was planned for JF.


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## syed_yusuf

To keep numbers relevant and to keep entire fleet technologically effective paf needs to keep mirage flying with updates and upgrades nothing wrong with it as long as we can keep quality intact which I think paf is doing effectively. These mirages are very much relevant in strike role with proper upgrades and top notch maintenance. These 36 Egyptian mirages with spares etc could be very relevant addition to paf effecient fleet of upgraded mirages. Paf mirages could support thunder and falcon effectively.

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## YeBeWarned

Signalian said:


> Arrival of JF-17 block-III has conveniently pushed aside M2K and J-10.
> Stealth should be inducted next.



It is highly possible that we might see JF block IV before Project AZM takes production lines .

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## umair86

princefaisal said:


> JF-17 Block-3 will take care of every threat...


We have put too much in one basket. JF-17 is meant to fulfill numbers and give BVR capability to the bulk of PAF fleet. It's not a world beater or up to the power of Rafale or J-10C it's a light weight jet with limited range and payload. We need heavy hitters only option available is J-10C. Pic of its cockpit is attached.

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## khanasifm

umair86 said:


> We have put too much in one basket. JF-17 is meant to fulfill numbers and give BVR capability to the bulk of PAF fleet. It's not a world beater or up to the power of Rafale or J-10C it's a light weight jet with limited range and payload. We need heavy hitters only option available is J-10C. Pic of its cockpit is attached.
> View attachment 579558



Pic of ? Jf block 3 ?


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## NA71

khanasifm said:


> Pic of ? Jf block 3 ?



J-10C


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## TsAr

umair86 said:


> We have put too much in one basket. JF-17 is meant to fulfill numbers and give BVR capability to the bulk of PAF fleet. It's not a world beater or up to the power of Rafale or J-10C it's a light weight jet with limited range and payload. We need heavy hitters only option available is J-10C. Pic of its cockpit is attached.
> View attachment 579558


J-10C is not a heavy hitters if thats what you are looking for. Look towards Russia or Europe if you want heavies.

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## denel

syed_yusuf said:


> To keep numbers relevant and to keep entire fleet technologically effective paf needs to keep mirage flying with updates and upgrades nothing wrong with it as long as we can keep quality intact which I think paf is doing effectively. These mirages are very much relevant in strike role with proper upgrades and top notch maintenance. These 36 Egyptian mirages with spares etc could be very relevant addition to paf effecient fleet of upgraded mirages. Paf mirages could support thunder and falcon effectively.


Correct, if that is the premium these birds are being put with, then I have said this before consolidation effort needs to be made to upgrade these to a common standardised platform similar to cheetah.


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## bananarepublic

denel said:


> Correct, if that is the premium these birds are being put with, then I have said this before consolidation effort needs to be made to upgrade these to a common standardised platform similar to cheetah.



Noob question

Is it cost effective to upgrade such old airframes to cheetah.
Cheetah is a pretty extensive upgrade of mirages .
What would be the cost of upgrading them ?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

denel said:


> Correct, if that is the premium these birds are being put with, then I have said this before consolidation effort needs to be made to upgrade these to a common standardised platform similar to cheetah.


How many Cheetah are available? May be PAF goes for them in the near future.


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## denel

bananarepublic said:


> Noob question
> 
> Is it cost effective to upgrade such old airframes to cheetah.
> Cheetah is a pretty extensive upgrade of mirages .
> What would be the cost of upgrading them ?


You are not inventing the wheel; we have done this over and over at Atlas, infact some of the wings on your M3's are from Atlas.

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## ACE OF THE AIR



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## denel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


>


yes, replaced by Gripens.

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## MystryMan

denel said:


> yes, replaced by Gripens.


are they stored/available for sale?


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## Viper27

MystryMan said:


> are they stored/available for sale?



Most of the stored planes have been sold to Ecuador, Chile and a private company in the US for adversary training.

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## Ark_Angel

M.Kamran_Pak said:


> The aim of JF development was to get rid of Western influence and especially US. As their military sales are always attached with strings of foreign policy agenda.
> Also at one point Pakistan even rejected Gripen in Musharraf era as Gripen has US engine.
> So it is highly unlikely that French Engine or Avionics, radar, fire control system was planned for JF.



Sir no offence intended, just Kindly do some background research about the Mil Projects before coming to conclusions regarding any Wpn Platform. It’s a different world altogether than just black and white. For your information and for other new comers here on PDF, Thunder was planned to have Thales RC-400 Radars, Electronics, EW Pods & Targeting Pods(Damocles), MICA missiles etc under a 1.6 Bn USD Deal with the French which was being negotiated since 05-06. Talks collapsed due to Mr Zardari,Your current Finance Wizard(Dr Hafeez)! and the French Themselves who walked away when they couldn’t see any big Financial incentive coming their way and of course the Indian Gajjar for Rafale! 
Imagine the beast Thunder would have been With all the reliable and lethal French Systems, subsystems and weapons. 

https://www.dawn.com/news/1250549



ziaulislam said:


> As far as i remeber engine was never requested from french..just the avionics and weapon suit


Chengdu 1999-2000 PAF had verbatim commitment by the French to provide Engines for the Thunder aka Super 7 Project. When French Backed out, a lot of sleepless nights were spent on figuring out the next course of Action. Fortunate for the project Ruskies came via the Chinese.

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## Humble Analyst

araz said:


> It might but it is no good if it is not going to be offered to us. Look at the Indian game plan. They have held the whole aviation industry to ransom with their promise to procure the "mother of all deals". Meanwhile all they do is eat Halwa puri at the expense of the providers while things are politely or bluntly refused to us. With the Gripen the refusal was fairly blunt. It might also have to do with our weak financial position but none the less it was refused.
> A
> 
> 
> It is a classic example of using a platform which in spite of its age is ideal for the role which it is being used for, is cheap and its loss does not give the enemy any moral victory. In IAF case if we down a couple of 21s it is not a great thing. However the MKI loss is a moral loss of a major frontline platform.
> On record I again want to reiterate that the MKI loss might have been due to idiotic and careless lack of apprehension of the enemy plan. I bet if the PAF had followed IAF back into Indian territory we would have suffered losses as well.
> A


Very good analysis and we have been watching India holding the World hostage by dangling the 100 plus MMRCA deal. Basic objective is to not let anybody sell to Pakistan while delaying in spending the money. You got to admire it in a perverse way.
Mirages are a better delivery weapon even a kid can tell by looking at the under the belly/ wings clearance is more than JF 17 and Mirage can carry more.
Why a lot of people do not understand this.

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## Irfan Baloch

Humble Analyst said:


> Mirages are a better delivery weapon even a kid can tell by looking at the under the belly/ wings clearance is more than JF 17 and Mirage can carry more.
> Why a lot of people do not understand this.


they do understand and know this but they wish and want that JF17 doubles as everything their imagination can think of.

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## khanasifm

Jf 8x10 inch hdd are pac designed with cooperation with Singapore technologies per paf history book and are adopted by paf for jf

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## umair86

TsAr said:


> J-10C is not a heavy hitters if thats what you are looking for. Look towards Russia or Europe if you want heavies.


Heavy hitter doesn't mean to carry 20 AAM J-10 can carry up to 11 that's enough even F-16 with 6 AMRAAM is a heavy hitter.

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## Thunder-17

PAF is really making use of its limited resources to its utmost. Good purchase.

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## denel

MystryMan said:


> are they stored/available for sale?


Sold already to various South American countries; those were far ahead of what you purchased from EA.

http://www.denelaviation.co.za/album/Cheetah/24

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## Trango Towers

Liquidmetal said:


> In all serious is the F16 available and is it affordable in the V configuration. The Gripen is an opportunity to strengthen our relationship with Sweden and would give us on par F16V capabilities which the JFT is lacking even in B3 upgrade. Failing that then the only choice is the Typhoon which I also prefer but can we afford it. For me Russian jets are out esp as Russia is still backing India and their military sales.


What does the f16V have that the block 3 jf17 doesnt


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## Haris Ali2140

Trango Towers said:


> What does the f16V have that the block 3 jf17 doesnt


Electronics.
Payload.


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## Trango Towers

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Electronics.
> Payload.


Electronics...
Asea on block 3
Payload I agree. Bug if 17 is a light fighter so a differnet class


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## Haris Ali2140

Trango Towers said:


> Electronics...
> Asea on block 3
> Payload I agree. Bug if 17 is a light fighter so a differnet class


APG 83 on Viper is a mate from F-35 and F-22.


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## Sulemanms202

nothing better than J 10 for 4.5 gen class considering politics of the region.
J10 C is even better than f 16 70 because we will need US weapons along with that plane

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## Trango Towers

Haris Ali2140 said:


> APG 83 on Viper is a mate from F-35 and F-22.


Mate but not same class I think. Ok...bro no point arguing. I just think we should stick to our own and not be sanctions prone again


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## M.Kamran_Pak

Ark_Angel said:


> Sir no offence intended, just Kindly do some background research about the Mil Projects before coming to conclusions regarding any Wpn Platform. It’s a different world altogether than just black and white. For your information and for other new comers here on PDF, Thunder was planned to have Thales RC-400 Radars, Electronics, EW Pods & Targeting Pods(Damocles), MICA missiles etc under a 1.6 Bn USD Deal with the French which was being negotiated since 05-06. Talks collapsed due to Mr Zardari,Your current Finance Wizard(Dr Hafeez)! and the French Themselves who walked away when they couldn’t see any big Financial incentive coming their way and of course the Indian Gajjar for Rafale!
> Imagine the beast Thunder would have been With all the reliable and lethal French Systems, subsystems and weapons.
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1250549
> 
> 
> Chengdu 1999-2000 PAF had verbatim commitment by the French to provide Engines for the Thunder aka Super 7 Project. When French Backed out, a lot of sleepless nights were spent on figuring out the next course of Action. Fortunate for the project Ruskies came via the Chinese.


Thanks for providing detailed info, however there are few things which I don't understand;
(1) Super 7 was another project on which Grumman was hired as consultant but 1989 infamous tiananmen square protests every US and Western consultant pulled off.
(2) Sabre II was a project on which Grumman was hired as consultant and Grumman concluded that project was not financially viable so PAF scraped it.
(3) There was another project namely Project-33, A Russian design to compete with F-16 (single engine), due to financial issues and Russian Air force not comfortable with single engine, it never went beyond blue print, later on Chinese in 1998 purchased design, research and test data from Mikhoyan Bureau.
After sanctions Fighter China project was launch in 1991. Now in 1995 PAC and CAC signed MoU for join development and in same year Mikhoyan joined the project for "design support".
Now point to note here is that in 1995 Pakistan was in talks with Western country (France) for Avionics, radar, targeting pods, night capabilities. PAF was on good terms with these French companies due to ROSE-1 2 3 upgrades and had experience.
But in 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were imposed so almost every Western country pulled off.
Also about engines, before 1989 tiananmen square protests Pratt & Whitney Pratt offered three engine options; Rolls Royce also offered engine options.
Can you clear confusion that
(1) JF-17 is evaluation of all above projects?
(2) In 1995 PAC /CAC signed MoU for joint production of fighter aircraft. In 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were put on Pakistan.
So after 1998 Pakistan was not in position to plan any Western systems, engines which were susceptible to any sanctions so earlier in 1995 French systems envisioned for JF never saw the light of day.
(3) In 2001 PAC/CAC separated the development of Avionics with airframe, so it is indication that Pakistan has fully realized the sanction prove Western systems and started looking elsewhere but to make sure project is delivered on time Pakistan separated the airframe development from Avionics.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Sold already to various South American countries; those were far ahead of what you purchased from EA.
> 
> http://www.denelaviation.co.za/album/Cheetah/24


Yes ofcourse, it wouldn't be the first time PAF missed the boat. Ideally they should have gone for the local production of cheetas, in addition to upgrading all the mirages in our service. But obviously that's not what they wanted.


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## SABRE

Sulemanms202 said:


> nothing better than J 10 for 4.5 gen class considering politics of the region.
> J10 C is even better than f 16 70 because we will need US weapons along with that plane



I might be wrong as I have not been following this thread but the reason for purchasing Egyptian Mirages could be for filling the gap created by discontinuation of JF-17 Block II production in favour of upcoming JF-17 Block III. If that is the case then buying J-10 might not be an idol thing to do. Better to stick with affordable and disposable (in near future) assets. J-10 would require setting up a whole new long term structure in place. BUT, regardless of our future trajectory - whether we buy F-16s, Eurofighters, Sukhois, OR NOT - two squadrons of J-10 or ~36 units of the aircraft might not be a bad idea.

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Yes ofcourse, it wouldn't be the first time PAF missed the boat. Ideally they should have gone for the local production of cheetas, in addition to upgrading all the mirages in our service. But obviously that's not what they wanted.


Correct; they could have brought over all the manufacturing jigs etc. Very very shortsightedness

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Correct; they could have brought over all the manufacturing jigs etc. Very very shortsightedness


Irony is that they are stuck with these fine planes, (not by PAF standards) for the foreseeable future.


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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Irony is that they are stuck with these fine planes, (not by PAF standards) for the foreseeable future.


correct; never too late still


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## Tipu7

Reminder. 

Mirage Horus deal with Egypt is still in discussions phase. It's YET TO finalize.

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## NA71

Sulemanms202 said:


> nothing better than J 10 for 4.5 gen class considering politics of the region.
> J10 C is even better than f 16 70 because we will need US weapons along with that plane



After so many calculations and analysis, the all equations...resulted in the same answer "J10C"......


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## kursed

J10C will not be bought since it brings to PAF inventory a third type of data-link. Unfeasible to use it as an individual shooter and not part of the overall PAF strategy of using systems.

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## NA71

kursed said:


> J10C will not be bought since it brings to PAF inventory a third type of data-link. Unfeasible to use it as an individual shooter and not part of the overall PAF strategy of using systems.


Agreed, but the fast emerging situation has forced our planners to think "otherwise".....as best alternate & quick solution.....wait....


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## SABRE

NA71 said:


> After so many calculations and analysis, the all equations...resulted in the same answer "J10C"......



Well, it's sitting right there, or dangling, in front of us at all times. Calling us in a whispery voice, "Hey man ... psst ... come over here" like a drug dealer trying to sell us drugs & then we have a defeatist attitude of "if nothing else there is always J-10C, it's sitting right there."

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## NA71

fantastic analogy ....yes ....we will land in Js....finally and will start praising it as a "Highly Formidable Bird" ...leading all our parades........

If that is going to happen...why have we wasted so much time?.....they should have been on our FOBs now.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF had love affair with three aircrafts in its history,first the Sabres,second the Mirages and third the F16s. It always started of with newer models initially and than kept on buying every remnant from every possible country it could muster. This love affair or addiction has paid off PAF handsomely ,as it had mastered these aircrafts to the ultimate. The only snag i found out with this addiction was that it had deprived many generations of enthusiasts with the sight of latest aircrafts.

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## Ark_Angel

M.Kamran_Pak said:


> Thanks for providing detailed info, however there are few things which I don't understand;
> (1) Super 7 was another project on which Grumman was hired as consultant but 1989 infamous tiananmen square protests every US and Western consultant pulled off.
> (2) Sabre II was a project on which Grumman was hired as consultant and Grumman concluded that project was not financially viable so PAF scraped it.
> (3) There was another project namely Project-33, A Russian design to compete with F-16 (single engine), due to financial issues and Russian Air force not comfortable with single engine, it never went beyond blue print, later on Chinese in 1998 purchased design, research and test data from Mikhoyan Bureau.
> After sanctions Fighter China project was launch in 1991. Now in 1995 PAC and CAC signed MoU for join development and in same year Mikhoyan joined the project for "design support".
> Now point to note here is that in 1995 Pakistan was in talks with Western country (France) for Avionics, radar, targeting pods, night capabilities. PAF was on good terms with these French companies due to ROSE-1 2 3 upgrades and had experience.
> But in 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were imposed so almost every Western country pulled off.
> Also about engines, before 1989 tiananmen square protests Pratt & Whitney Pratt offered three engine options; Rolls Royce also offered engine options.
> Can you clear confusion that
> (1) JF-17 is evaluation of all above projects?
> (2) In 1995 PAC /CAC signed MoU for joint production of fighter aircraft. In 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were put on Pakistan.
> So after 1998 Pakistan was not in position to plan any Western systems, engines which were susceptible to any sanctions so earlier in 1995 French systems envisioned for JF never saw the light of day.
> (3) In 2001 PAC/CAC separated the development of Avionics with airframe, so it is indication that Pakistan has fully realized the sanction prove Western systems and started looking elsewhere but to make sure project is delivered on time Pakistan separated the airframe development from Avionics.


Super 7 evolved into JF-17. Project even till late 90s-2000 was known As Super-7 project. All the Engineers and PAF personnel deputed to Chengdu initially pre 2002 we’re deputed to Project Super 7. It was later redesignated as JF-17. French has committed to the project as far as the Engine was concerned. PAF and Pakistan had a very special relationship with France till 05. French worship $$$$ as long as one is willing to pay. Stereotyping aside that’s what the project had envisaged till 2001. Rest of the details have already been shared above.


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## Deltadart

denel said:


> correct; never too late still


I agree with you, considering they don't have many options out there.


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## denel

Deltadart said:


> I a
> 
> I agree with you, considering they don't have many options out there.


Correct same RD engine can be plugged in; we did it before as well. Atar9c is useless fuel guzzler. Again, boils down to lack of vision. They want to keep M3/5 going like it is a Corolla.

Man, they need to decide if they need to branch it off into a new version. 

They have no funds and no external options.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Correct same RD engine can be plugged in; we did it before as well. Atar9c is useless fuel guzzler. Again, boils down to lack of vision. They want to keep M3/5 going like it is a Corolla.
> 
> Man, they need to decide if they need to branch it off into a new version.
> 
> They have no funds and no external options.


I think you nailed it with this analysis. PAF has done bare minimum to keep these birds flying. They ought to look into what you have been suggesting for a long while here.

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## umair86

kursed said:


> J10C will not be bought since it brings to PAF inventory a third type of data-link. Unfeasible to use it as an individual shooter and not part of the overall PAF strategy of using systems.


One of the most illogical answer if we get it it will PAF specific not with Chinese datalink. If this would have been the case all JF-17 would have Chinese datalink.

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## Sulemanms202

dunno much abt data links im speaking more abt practicality if we need american weapons for a system than that system is taking away our independence and eventually we will do what they ask of us, not a good position!


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## Patriot786b2

These additional fighter jets inducted into PAF will be awesome 2nd Strike capability of offence inside Deep India targets regardless of age of fighter aircraft.

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## Burhan Wani

@Windjammer Bro your comments


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## Windjammer

Burhan Wani said:


> @Windjammer Bro your comments


Lets wait until they arrive but news is that we should be able to raise at least one more squadron out of these.

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## Behram Khilji

Windjammer said:


> Lets wait until they arrive but news is that we should be able to raise at least one more squadron out of these.



Any idea when they are due?


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## Burhan Wani

Windjammer said:


> Lets wait until they arrive but news is that we should be able to raise at least one more squadron out of these.


News authentic or not?
Negotiations going or confirmed?


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## CHI RULES

Burhan Wani said:


> News authentic or not?
> Negotiations going or confirmed?


That's strange that it is confirmed and reported by many sources that deal has been done between Egypt and Pak yet Pakistan has not still received them.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Burhan Wani said:


> News authentic or not?
> Negotiations going or confirmed?


Bro dont worry we will get those Mirages. The Govt has been courting Sisi many times recently.I recon once we get them we will be able to salvage more than 90% of the air frames as we did in the past with the Australians,Lebanese,French,Libyan and others.

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## NA71

Patriot786b2 said:


> These additional fighter jets inducted into PAF will be awesome 2nd Strike capability of offence inside Deep India targets regardless of age of fighter aircraft.



awesome

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## Ali_Baba

If PAF can recover any for operation use, it will take 18months+ for the first unit to become available. Nothing moves fast in the aviation space !!!

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## khanasifm

Heard about it first time in 2017 and now it’s 2019 ending not sure [emoji848] but lots of hoha and foobar


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Heard about it first time in 2017 and now it’s 2019 ending not sure [emoji848] but lots of hoha and foobar


we are taking of EAF; they are not steady footed like the desert sands of sahara. They know PAF wants it and they will do whatever to renage and strech out for commissions.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> we are taking of EAF; they are not steady footed like the desert sands of sahara. They know PAF wants it and they will do whatever to renage and strech out for commissions.



I know the details but cannot share but foobar

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> I know the details but cannot share but foobar


I get the drift; been there with EA companies - we have one word for them 'skalem'. if you have an afrikaans person you know they will give you the meaning.


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## khanasifm

denel said:


> I get the drift; been there with EA companies - we have one word for them 'skalem'. if you have an afrikaans person you know they will give you the meaning.



Not Egyptians

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## The Eagle

@Bratva is this what we are expecting from those EAF C-130s in ISB?


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## Aamir Hussain

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Bro dont worry we will get those Mirages. The Govt has been courting Sisi many times recently.I recon once we get them we will be able to salvage more than 90% of the air frames as we did in the past with the Australians,Lebanese,French,Libyan and others.



Use the Saudis to put pressure on Egypt. After all they are the one propping up the regime.

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## nomi007

Cobras have been delivered.
Contract has been signed between the US & Pak for C-130J.
now
Horus be le lo.

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## TheTallGuy

@The Eagle 
so are they are delivering Mirages in knock down state? what about 23 x Horus Mirages they were flying operationally.. they can fly to Pakistan via Saudia? 

by the way ..these Egyptian Mirages are Saudi property...they were purchased with Saudi money in 1970s and i remember first batch even had Saudi markings applied.

i found the picture

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## aziqbal

buy them buy as many as possible

Dassault Charge a fortune for spares for these older aircraft and many inside the PAF are still getting back hands from these types of spare parts deals

get used ones and avoid any buying of spares from Dassault

JF17 has basically eliminated the corruption within the establishment the parts come directly from PAC

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## The Eagle

TheTallGuy said:


> @The Eagle
> so are they are delivering Mirages in knock down state? what about 23 x Horus Mirages they were flying operationally.. they can fly to Pakistan via Saudia?
> 
> by the way ..these Egyptian Mirages are Saudi property...they were purchased with Saudi money in 1970s and i remember first batch even had Saudi markings applied.
> 
> i found the picture



They would have been Saudis property but I no longer see that. Now, these Mirages belongs to EAF as far as I know. Even if it was Saudi's money, that will like a loan however, KSA may have a say into deal, if comes to fruition because we don't know anything about it currently. Secondly, if these C-130s were carrying something related to EAF Mirages for PAF then most probably they are spares or cannibalized birds going to be used for spares. The operational ones can fly to Pakistan or be through Ship otherwise, the such number of ACs will take too long to be transferred through Air like this.

If EAF's Mirages are supposed to fly all the way to Pakistan; I am sure we will be seeing a lot of photos by enthusiasts or deliberate marketing to send a message. Depends upon fairy range & flight time.

All in all, I will repeat again that nothing is clear as of yet. What if in the end it may turn out like C-130s were here to pick medical supplies along with some trainers for EAF. Never to hold high hopes so in the end may not be disappointed.

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## TheTallGuy

The Eagle said:


> They would have been Saudis property but I no longer see that. Now, these Mirages belongs to EAF as far as I know. Even if it was Saudi's money, that will like a loan however, KSA may have a say into deal, if comes to fruition because we don't know anything about it currently. Secondly, if these C-130s were carrying something related to EAF Mirages for PAF then most probably they are spares or cannibalized birds going to be used for spares. The operational ones can fly to Pakistan or be through Ship otherwise, the such number of ACs will take too long to be transferred through Air like this.
> 
> If EAF's Mirages are supposed to fly all the way to Pakistan; I am sure we will be seeing a lot of photos by enthusiasts or deliberate marketing to send a message. Depends upon fairy range & flight time.
> 
> All in all, I will repeat again that nothing is clear as of yet. What if in the end it may turn out like C-130s were here to pick medical supplies along with some trainers for EAF. Never to hold high hopes so in the end may not be disappointed.



some of my friend have very high hopes..5 of them (Hush Hush) already in Pakistan..

hat can i say...stop gap...and guess what they are not J-15s


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## Gomig-21

The Eagle said:


> Yes and the source was very credible. Alan Warnes wouldn't just say something like that without due confirmation.
> 
> We had a conversation and discussion is still active. You might wanna participate...
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...batch-of-egyptian-air-force-mirage-vs.614217/



That's quite the thread! It seems like a portion is not happy about it and the other is fine with it and one thinks it's for spares only while some think some will augment current PAF Mirages lol. Good stuff. I can tell you that about 50 of those 80 or so Mirages in the EAF which are a mixture of the V SDE, V SDD and a couple other variants are very active and in very decent condition. Most of them train with the Hellenic Air Force instead of with the EAF Mirage 2000s which the Greeks have quite a few of. Instead, the EAF seems to prefer to use the Vs because they fly pretty well. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

I can understand the feeling of negativity with regards to a deal like this because many PAF fans would much rather see something new and of the latest standard be sought out by the PAF instead of these older birds, no matter how well maintained and upgraded they've been. It's very understandable. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do. The Mirages have been doing very well in the PAF for many years, and so why not augment them for lesser of the cost of a new platform if that helps in any way? I think it's a good thing plus what it can do to improve relations between the two countries, I'm all for it.

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## ziaulislam

The Eagle said:


> They would have been Saudis property but I no longer see that. Now, these Mirages belongs to EAF as far as I know. Even if it was Saudi's money, that will like a loan however, KSA may have a say into deal, if comes to fruition because we don't know anything about it currently. Secondly, if these C-130s were carrying something related to EAF Mirages for PAF then most probably they are spares or cannibalized birds going to be used for spares. The operational ones can fly to Pakistan or be through Ship otherwise, the such number of ACs will take too long to be transferred through Air like this.
> 
> If EAF's Mirages are supposed to fly all the way to Pakistan; I am sure we will be seeing a lot of photos by enthusiasts or deliberate marketing to send a message. Depends upon fairy range & flight time.
> 
> All in all, I will repeat again that nothing is clear as of yet. What if in the end it may turn out like C-130s were here to pick medical supplies along with some trainers for EAF. Never to hold high hopes so in the end may not be disappointed.


Seeing how egypt maintain these..i am sure they are not flyable till refurbished by PAC

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## TheTallGuy

Gomig-21 said:


> I think it's a good thing plus what it can do to improve relations between the two countries, I'm all for it.



Brother, we have fought along side you in 1973 over skies of Tanta, Mansoora, killed enemy as well. its just politics that takes us on different path...

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## The Eagle

Gomig-21 said:


> That's quite the thread! It seems like a portion is not happy about it and the other is fine with it and one thinks it's for spares only while some think some will augment current PAF Mirages lol. Good stuff. I can tell you that about 50 of those 80 or so Mirages in the EAF which are a mixture of the V SDE, V SDD and a couple other variants are very active and in very decent condition. Most of them train with the Helenic Air Force instead of with the EAF Mirage 2000s which the Greeks have quite a few of. Instead, the EAF seems to prefer to use the Vs because they fly pretty well. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
> 
> I can understand the feeling of negativity with regards to a deal like this because many PAF fans would much rather see something new and of the latest standard be sought out by the PAF instead of these older birds, no matter how well maintained and upgraded they've been. It's very understandable. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do. The Mirages have been doing very well in the PAF for many years, and so why not augment them for lesser of the cost of a new platform if that helps in any way? I think it's a good thing plus what it can do to improve relations between the two countries, I'm all for it.



Good stuff.

Thanks for the post so I had to move it here out of interest and also, to keep discussion in good flow. 

I agree that the portion of us being fanboys can't be satisfied under the strategical & military planning or requirements. You are right on point but all of them aren't angry because these are mirages or had to do anything with Egypt (even though both subjects are part of discussion and related) but most of us wants something new & within latest gen capability and such wishes are due to the love for country and PAF, the way I see it. So, that's sometimes is normal. 

No doubt Mirages did serve us very well and more often. Feb 27, 2019 Operation Swift Retort is recent example. One thing is clear and as you stated as well that if this purchase arrived in Pakistan, I am sure not all of them are for spares. Officials have made a good call seeing our requirements of spares and so the needed punch. The fleet will grow and so the spare inventory while the rest will be done by MRF where men in uniform are well experienced. Surely, this deal contains both, the flyable & for spares.



TheTallGuy said:


> some of my friend have very high hopes..5 of them (Hush Hush) already in Pakistan..



having high hopes, isn't a bad thing Sir. All I meant to say is that Never keep yourself very specific unless, you are part of the the deal because anything could come out of situation in the end. 5 of them what?



TheTallGuy said:


> hat can i say...stop gap...and guess what they are not J-15s



You mean something new but not the J-15? for stop gap which is not related to Mirage as well? I am asking because I didn't get you on Sir.



ziaulislam said:


> Seeing how egypt maintain these..i am sure they are not flyable till refurbished by PAC



Allow me to disagree Sir.... The purchase is mix of cannibalized & flyable. PAF has surely checked very well before finalization. EAF maintains pretty well those who wanted to fly.

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## Imran Khan

Gomig-21 said:


> That's quite the thread! It seems like a portion is not happy about it and the other is fine with it and one thinks it's for spares only while some think some will augment current PAF Mirages lol. Good stuff. I can tell you that about 50 of those 80 or so Mirages in the EAF which are a mixture of the V SDE, V SDD and a couple other variants are very active and in very decent condition. Most of them train with the Hellenic Air Force instead of with the EAF Mirage 2000s which the Greeks have quite a few of. Instead, the EAF seems to prefer to use the Vs because they fly pretty well. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
> 
> I can understand the feeling of negativity with regards to a deal like this because many PAF fans would much rather see something new and of the latest standard be sought out by the PAF instead of these older birds, no matter how well maintained and upgraded they've been. It's very understandable. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do. The Mirages have been doing very well in the PAF for many years, and so why not augment them for lesser of the cost of a new platform if that helps in any way? I think it's a good thing plus what it can do to improve relations between the two countries, I'm all for it.


my friend people are right too

in pakisitan you can find mirages in every city . what is porpuse of buying more .
















































even pakistan gifted one to china

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## The Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> what is porpuse of buying more .



Imran! I will rather suggest that if you don't know the purpose then you shouldn't be making fun or mocking or taunting as such. Just leave it to the ones flying these jets and utilizing their capabilities to the fullest. No doubt these birds have still a role to play and far more worthy than the price tag. Just don't start again if you don't like Mirage. Thank you.

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## Thorough Pro

Don't forget Pakistan's support to help Egypt get back into AL & OIC after the whole Arab World boycotted them after Egypt's camp David deal with Israel










TheTallGuy said:


> Brother, we have fought along side you in 1973 over skies of Tanta, Mansoora, killed enemy as well. its just politics that takes us on different path...


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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> Imran! I will rather suggest that if you don't know the purpose then you shouldn't be making fun or mocking or taunting as such. Just leave it to the ones flying these jets and utilizing their capabilities to the fullest. No doubt these birds have still a role to play and far more worthy than the price tag. Just don't start again if you don't like Mirage. Thank you.


well i remember sir @Muradk how much he was in love with mirages . we all know these are just outdated sir . our forcing do things its not mean we just stop talking on it . i can give you many examples where our forces did wrong deals . they are humans like us boss

mp5 guns deal 
lynx choppers deal 
AUG steyr guns

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## Salza

Some of these mirage horus will have RC400 radar on them. Same radar which Indian upgraded mirage 2000s are using. Same radar which paf wanted for their JF17s earlier which France denied that time.

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## The Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> well i remember sir @Muradk how much he was in love with mirages . we all know these are just outdated sir . our forcing do things its not mean we just stop talking on it . i can give you many examples where our forces did wrong deals . they are humans like us boss
> 
> mp5 guns deal
> lynx choppers deal
> AUG steyr guns



Bhai... few mistakes doesn't count all to be wrong. YOu need to see the brighter side... .limitations... needs.. requirement and planning to utilize such capability for a while. France demands high for spares and then, throw a doable option to ground them right now. We are talking but why the single point like Mirages being old and that's it? why not the other capabilities that these birds offers and moreover, they aren't outdated but updated for their specific role for which example was set during Operation Swift Retort where enemy had all the shiny things in inventory to stop. All I want you to consider every fact brother. For the time & given our requirements based upon circumstances; it is plausible to do so. You don't have a lot of options to ground such fleet like that.

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## air marshal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281976356692283392


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## Gomig-21

ziaulislam said:


> Seeing how egypt maintain these..i am sure they are not flyable till refurbished by PAC



lol, com'owwwnnnn, maaaan! Stop with the silly hatred, will ya!  Show me this phantom "seeing how egypt maintain these".....? Where did you hear or see anything that gibberish you just made up? lol



Imran Khan said:


> my friend people are right too
> in pakisitan you can find mirages in every city . what is porpuse of buying more



I see that and I know that very well. I've watched all the impressive videos of practicing landing on roadways and testing the Raad CM and all things of that sort. 

You also have a pretty large fleet of them that the PAF relies on, from 90+ Mirage Vs and what, same number of Mirage IIIs? Maybe some of the IIIs being a bit older than the V's will be put to sleep and so why lose a fraction of them without augmenting the other? That makes a lot of sense, actually. If the price is good (which knowing our end pretty well, I'm sure it is) then this makes all the sense in the world. Even if it's for another 5 years until the Thunders are in adequate numbers or suddenly there's a contract for 30 Eurofighter Typhoons or Mirage 2000s, then these would've served fine. I think it's a wise decision considering the large number of Mirages the PAF operates. And what a great aircraft that is.



Salza said:


> Some of these mirage horus will have RC400 radar on them.



I was going to mention that but you beat me to it! 
23 jets of the VSDE's were part of the Horus upgrade in 2010. Some decent info in this link.

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/the_egyptian_horus_program_eng.html

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## Sidacca

Imran Khan said:


> my friend people are right too
> 
> in pakisitan you can find mirages in every city . what is porpuse of buying more .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> even pakistan gifted one to china


I-9 main bhi aik Lagaya h Sir g....

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## Imran Khan

Sidacca said:


> I-9 main bhi aik Lagaya h Sir g....


thats not mirage bro its A-5 fantan

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## The Maverick

Mirage 5 






Upgraded to Mirage2000





upgraded to the Rafale 






Getting Mig29 for interim measure OR F16 early model fighters makes sense .. = Why because they are early 4 generation fighters 

BUT mirage 5 is MIG21 or F4 phantom era fighter ........ You really dont need to be doing this even for spares

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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> Mirage 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upgraded to Mirage2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> upgraded to the Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting Mig29 for interim measure OR F16 early model fighters makes sense .. = Why because they are early 4 generation fighters
> 
> BUT mirage 5 is MIG21 or F4 phantom era fighter ........ You really dont need to be doing this even for spares


whats india doing for its 3rd gen jauguars

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## Darth Vader

Mirage 5 is still a capable platform for its role in PAF.
1 The majority of these will be used as a reserve to keep current feet operational.
2 little number can be inducted straight away which will increase Pakistans Land attack capability straight away as Pakistan already has the infrastructure to support these aircraft just like Pakistan did with used F16s.
3 Yes, its an old platform but Beside F16 Pakistan has no other platform which can be made operational that quickly. 
4 Mirage 2000 is a really good platform but it doesn't offer much to Pakistan in terms as for that Pakistan already has F 16 and Thunder, Pakistan needs a true Air superiority fighter and in this age, the closest thing is a Stealth platform which will take years in induction be it Azm , J20 , J31 , J 35.

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## HaMoTZeMaS

Imran Khan said:


> thats not mirage bro its A-5 fantan


Such a pretty bird on such a Roori Tutti Phutti Ground 
Should we Jharu this ?

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## The Maverick

ziaulislam said:


> whats india doing for its 3rd gen jauguars




The upgrade programme scrapped 
The reengine programme scrapped 
Just keeping 55 Darin 3 UPGRADES which includes AESA radar until 2030 more likely 2035


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## TheTallGuy

The Eagle said:


> You mean something new but not the J-15? for stop gap which is not related to Mirage as well? I am asking because I didn't get you on Sir.



well brother, i am not a sir, i am the most looney poster over here who has been never correct..not once... from what i hear ....it is all organised misinformation. real thing is very different.

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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> The upgrade programme scrapped
> The reengine programme scrapped
> Just keeping 55 Darin 3 UPGRADES which includes AESA radar until 2030 more likely 2035


lack of engine means even those wont happen..

bottom line mirage 3/5 is PAF jaguars..and will go by 2030..so acquiring used for spares is perfectly okay..

i doubt PAF is desperate for these, if Egypt doesn't want to sell, PAF will walk away

the platforms we got from libya, Jordan etc had many many hours on them..

with 20+ jf-17s b3 rolling from next year and all f7s already gone(except for the new PGs) PAF would easily replace these by 2025-2030


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## Nomad40

TheTallGuy said:


> well brother, i am not a sir, i am the most looney poster over here who has been never correct..not once... from what i hear ....it is all organised misinformation. real thing is very different.


why are quoting Eagle any ways Ching Chola ayega ya nhi wu mujhay nahi pata.

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## TheTallGuy

so any news?


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## Nomad40

ACE OF THE AIR said:


>



allah hidayat de

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## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


>


video bhi bana dali is per tuanoo lavy maula

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> video bhi bana dali is per tuanoo lavy maula


 AOA Bhai,
Yeh jo video wala banda hai woh PDF ki news per video bana ker paise kama ne ka kaam ker ta hai. us ko ye gharz nahi kya sach hai or kya jhut.


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## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> AOA Bhai,
> Yeh jo video wala banda hai woh PDF ki news per video bana ker paise kama ne ka kaam ker ta hai. us ko ye gharz nahi kya sach hai or kya jhut.


theek hai bhai kisi ka to bhala hoa humari bala de  PDF se hum sab ko hamesha nuksaan hi hoa hai koi to hai jo faida utha raha hai


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## SQ8

TheTallGuy said:


> well brother, i am not a sir, i am the most looney poster over here who has been never correct..not once... from what i hear ....it is all *organised misinformation*. real thing is very different.



That is what ensures that the enemy isn’t prepared for what is actually coming.

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## Pakistani Fighter

SQ8 said:


> isn’t prepared for what is actually coming.


J15s? J10Cs?


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## SQ8

Pakistani Fighter said:


> J15s? J10Cs?


No more 4th gen fighters apart from what we operate to boost numbers. What is coming with Azm will be the “new” jet.

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## The Eagle

TheTallGuy said:


> it is all organised misinformation.



The key element to confuse them as I said earlier. Either received something or not or aimed at something else; unless enemy becomes aware it is all good.

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## JonAsad

TheTallGuy said:


> .it is all organised misinformation


to keep us happy and india at bay?



The Eagle said:


> The key element to confuse them


while we confuse them with arrival of grandpa mirages, indians are awaiting the actual delivery of rafaels-


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## Pandora

On this planet only Pakistanis would be celebrating that we are procuring more of this junk.

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## Zarvan

SQ8 said:


> That is what ensures that the enemy isn’t prepared for what is actually coming.


Sir if it's all part of misinformation what should we take your claim on no more new 4th Generation jet seriously ???


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## litman

it seems PAF has judged the situation well now. PAF is not wasting money on any new fourth gen platform. they are just maintaining and upgrading the existing ones. 4th gen jets are things of the past now. they are useful against poorly equipped enemy only. in case of pak -ind war neither of the two air forces can carry out deep strike into the enemy territory. it is even more difficult for PAF as we have lesser number of jets. with AWACS , SAMs and BVR capable jets defending an air space the whole of the aggressor force will be totally annihilated even before reaching their target specially during the early days of war. if God forbid a war breaks out today PAF must stay in its air space and they will carry out ground strikes close to the border. they wont make the mistake of going deeper. no 4th gen jet can do the job effectively now. the 26- 27 feb operations both by the IAF and PAF showed that both the air forces had to use a large no of air crafts in the strike package in order to carry out minor strikes close to the border . the IAF used everything at its disposal and manged to destroy only few trees. this is the worth of 4th gen jets today. i dont say that they are totally useless today but only the fifth gen jets can effectively neutralize the enemy both in the air and on the ground today. so PAF must focus on getting a couple of squadrons of fifth gen jets . the 4th gen jets will only be able to inflict damage to the enemy force under the umbrella of fifth gen jets. so a combination of fifth gen jet, F-16s, JFTs and upgraded mirages will be sufficient to meet our requirments in near future. If JFT can replace the mirage in ground strike role it will be a great benefit. full scale war between india and pak is unlikely and if it happened then we wont be needing jets as the whole region will be totally destroyed.

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## Zarvan

litman said:


> it seems PAF has judged the situation well now. PAF is not wasting money on any new fourth gen platform. they are just maintaining and upgrading the existing ones. 4th gen jets are things of the past now. they are useful against poorly equipped enemy only. in case of pak -ind war neither of the two air forces can carry out deep strike into the enemy territory. it is even more difficult for PAF as we have lesser number of jets. with AWACS , SAMs and BVR capable jets defending an air space the whole of the aggressor force will be totally annihilated even before reaching their target specially during the early days of war. if God forbid a war breaks out today PAF must stay in its air space and they will carry out ground strikes close to the border. they wont make the mistake of going deeper. no 4th gen jet can do the job effectively now. the 26- 27 feb operations both by the IAF and PAF showed that both the air forces had to use a large no of air crafts in the strike package in order to carry out minor strikes close to the border . the IAF used everything at its disposal and manged to destroy only few trees. this is the worth of 4th gen jets today. i dont say that they are totally useless today but only the fifth gen jets can effectively neutralize the enemy both in the air and on the ground today. so PAF must focus on getting a couple of squadrons of fifth gen jets . the 4th gen jets will only be able to inflict damage to the enemy force under the umbrella of fifth gen jets. so a combination of fifth gen jet, F-16s, JFTs and upgraded mirages will be sufficient to meet our requirments in near future. If JFT can replace the mirage in ground strike role it will be a great benefit. full scale war between india and pak is unlikely and if it happened then we wont be needing jets as the whole region will be totally destroyed.


4.5 Generation Jets are not going anywhere for next 30 to 35 years at least. And PAF will go for at least one 4.5th Generation before looking for 5th Generation

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## The Eagle

JonAsad said:


> while we confuse them with arrival of grandpa mirages, indians are awaiting the actual delivery of rafaels-



Who knows what's happening. They can take deliveries and this side will keep up with everything that counters the threat and so confuse them.



SQ8 said:


> No more 4th gen fighters *apart from what we operate to boost numbers*. _What is coming with Azm_ will be the _“new”_ jet.



Kuch keh bhi dia aur chup bhi rahay.

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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Sir if it's all part of misinformation what should we take your claim on no more new 4th Generation jet seriously ???


“New” means new platform.
Not what we already operate.



Pandora said:


> On this planet only Pakistanis would be celebrating that we are procuring more of this junk.


It is the same Junk that successfully penetrated a fairly sophisticated ADGE to guide a weapon well into the target, then made it out of there pretty intact.

The effectiveness of a platform that matters and specifically how little it takes to add capability.

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## YeBeWarned

SQ8 said:


> “New” means new platform.
> Not what we already operate.
> 
> 
> It is the same Junk that successfully penetrated a fairly sophisticated ADGE to guide a weapon well into the target, then made it out of there pretty intact.
> 
> The effectiveness of a platform that matters and specifically how little it takes to add capability.



how true is this news of M2k's from Egypt is ?


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## SQ8

Starlord said:


> how true is this news of M2k's from Egypt is ?


As true as Asif Zardari being completely uninvolved in corruption.

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## YeBeWarned

SQ8 said:


> As true as Asif Zardari being completely uninvolved in corruption.



LOL that example ... I guess except for a minor chance of used/New F-16s, no other planes would be joining the PAF until project Azm comes to life .


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## Pandora

SQ8 said:


> It is the same Junk that successfully penetrated a fairly sophisticated ADGE to guide a weapon well into the target, then made it out of there pretty intact.
> 
> The effectiveness of a platform that matters and specifically how little it takes to add capability.



Dude no matter how you paint it its an obsolete platform. We are still using it bcz we have no other option for now but lets not paint it as some next gen aircraft which performs amazingly. We call Indian Migs 21 flying coffins but in comparison our mirages are nothing less than graves.


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## Tameem

SQ8 said:


> No more 4th gen fighters apart from what we operate to boost numbers. What is coming with Azm will be the “new” jet.



Is the "New" jet considered 4.5th Generation?

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## Mighty Lion

ziaulislam said:


> lack of engine means even those wont happen..
> 
> bottom line mirage 3/5 is PAF jaguars..and will go by 2030..so acquiring used for spares is perfectly okay..
> 
> i doubt PAF is desperate for these, if Egypt doesn't want to sell, PAF will walk away
> 
> the platforms we got from libya, Jordan etc had many many hours on them..
> 
> with 20+ jf-17s b3 rolling from next year and all f7s already gone(except for the new PGs) PAF would easily replace these by 2025-2030


Off topic but your info is incorrect. Darin 3 upgraded Jaguars will remain in service till 2038


> “The HAL will upgrade 56 Jaguars to DARIN-III standard, and the project will be completed by 2024,” an official told The Hindu. "These will remain in operational service till 2038", he added.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Nice package to sustain PAF Mirages till 2025.

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## Hassan Guy

_How many more years will the Mirage remain in service?
_
PAF:

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## _NOBODY_

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Nice package to sustain PAF Mirages till 2025.


Welcome back sir.


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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Nice package to sustain PAF Mirages till 2025.




Fokes as far as I know there is no official or otherwise confirmation just speculations based on c-130 

??
Correct

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## The Maverick

Your mirage 5 will be of use as bomb truck.
And even then in your own airspace if you still have air superiority in your side of loc.

The mirage 5 would be useless against any one of India.s principle fighters be it su30 mki. Mig29 up mirage2000 Rafale or Tejas. In a dog fight or bvr fight

As for those referring jaguar they will operate as strike only were we maintain air supremacy as cas or x strike package flanked by air superiority fighters. 

We would losing pilots


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> Your mirage 5 will be of use as bomb truck.
> And even then in your own airspace if you still have air superiority in your side of loc.
> 
> The mirage 5 would be useless against any one of India.s principle fighters be it su30 mki. Mig29 up mirage2000 Rafale or Tejas. In a dog fight or bvr fight
> 
> As for those referring jaguar they will operate as strike only were we maintain air supremacy as cas or x strike package flanked by air superiority fighters.
> 
> We would losing pilots



Mirage's are striker's.


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## TsAr

The Maverick said:


> Your mirage 5 will be of use as bomb truck.
> And even then in your own airspace if you still have air superiority in your side of loc.
> 
> The mirage 5 would be useless against any one of India.s principle fighters be it su30 mki. Mig29 up mirage2000 Rafale or Tejas. In a dog fight or bvr fight
> 
> As for those referring jaguar they will operate as strike only were we maintain air supremacy as cas or x strike package flanked by air superiority fighters.
> 
> We would losing pilots


27th Feb proved that they are still worthwhile planes.

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## The Maverick

TsAr said:


> 27th Feb proved that they are still worthwhile planes.



Why what happened 27th February


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## Bilal.

The Maverick said:


> Your mirage 5 will be of use as bomb truck.
> And even then in your own airspace if you still have air superiority in your side of loc.
> 
> The mirage 5 would be useless against any one of India.s principle fighters be it su30 mki. Mig29 up mirage2000 Rafale or Tejas. In a dog fight or bvr fight
> 
> As for those referring jaguar they will operate as strike only were we maintain air supremacy as cas or x strike package flanked by air superiority fighters.
> 
> We would losing pilots



Yes and it will free up other fighters for air superiority role.

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## baqai

The Maverick said:


> Why what happened 27th February



aik munnay ki chaddi utaar kar buss du chaar chamat laga liye thay tu show whose the daddy, yaqeen na aaye tu ja kar squadron 51 mai aik chai kai lover sai poch lu

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## Ultima Thule

The Maverick said:


> Why what happened 27th February


THEY BOMBED YOU OUT OF YOUR SHIT AND YOUR RAPTOR OF THE EAST MKI DID NOTHING BUT DODGING AMRAAM

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## The Maverick

This is typical Strike package for Jaguar 

Mki & Tejas will need to protect the Jaguar

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## Ultima Thule

The Maverick said:


> This is typical Strike package for Jaguar
> 
> Mki & Tejas will need to protect the Jaguar


AH WE ARE DEFENSELESS FEW AMRAAM AND SD-10 WILL DO THE JOB

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## TheTallGuy

The Maverick said:


> This is typical Strike package for Jaguar
> 
> Mki & Tejas will need to protect the Jaguar



why didnt Su-30MKI shot down a single aircraft? even a two seater Mirage 3DA that breached the LOC? ok i make it easier..why didnt it fired a single missile.? 

ask your self? then think about your strike package? only thing good you have new upgraded Mirage 2000 Mk2s, but they didnt do nothing as well. so...ah yes..Send the MiG-21BISONs we are afraid of them...they are dangerous.

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## I S I

The Maverick said:


> Mki & Tejas will need to protect the Jaguar


Teja bhai can't even protect himself lmao. It might need air to ground missiles attached to the same TATA truck it's usually towed on.



The Maverick said:


> Why what happened 27th February


Kutte wali hoi thi aik suppa pawwa desh ki.

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## Raider 21

The Maverick said:


> Why what happened 27th February


The Mirages were used in hitting areas close to targets of interest as a show of force for the silly mission conducted by the Indian Air Force on February 26th 2019 as a political move by the current Indian government. The Mirages did much much better than expected.

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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> Your mirage 5 will be of use as bomb truck.
> And even then in your own airspace if you still have air superiority in your side of loc.
> 
> The mirage 5 would be useless against any one of India.s principle fighters be it su30 mki. Mig29 up mirage2000 Rafale or Tejas. In a dog fight or bvr fight
> 
> As for those referring jaguar they will operate as strike only were we maintain air supremacy as cas or x strike package flanked by air superiority fighters.
> 
> We would losing pilots


mirages will also be used for a strategic nuclear role with their 600km raad cruise missiles

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## SQ8

Tameem said:


> Is the "New" jet considered 4.5th Generation?


4.95



Pandora said:


> Dude no matter how you paint it its an obsolete platform. We are still using it bcz we have no other option for now but lets not paint it as some *next gen aircraft which performs amazingly*. We call Indian Migs 21 flying coffins but in comparison our mirages are nothing less than graves.


Who made the bold claim?
As for next gen aircraft- unless you or your family paid $2 billion in taxes last year or intend to give that to the PAF because mine sure doesn’t ; be happy with whatever this miserably broke country can afford and still make work against an enemy that can buy you ten times over with their coffers.



The Maverick said:


> Why what happened 27th February


Free fantastic tea - always available to as many Indian pilots willing to parachute down - either willingly or we can arrange the journey.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

The Maverick said:


> Your mirage 5 will be of use as bomb truck.
> And even then in your own airspace if you still have air superiority in your side of loc.
> 
> The mirage 5 would be useless against any one of India.s principle fighters be it su30 mki. Mig29 up mirage2000 Rafale or Tejas. In a dog fight or bvr fight
> 
> As for those referring jaguar they will operate as strike only were we maintain air supremacy as cas or x strike package flanked by air superiority fighters.
> 
> We would losing pilots






A bit like how you indians also used to claim that Pakistan would NEVER be able to shot down an indian fighter jet, pre 27/02/2019.............

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## Akh1112

The Maverick said:


> Your mirage 5 will be of use as bomb truck.
> And even then in your own airspace if you still have air superiority in your side of loc.
> 
> The mirage 5 would be useless against any one of India.s principle fighters be it su30 mki. Mig29 up mirage2000 Rafale or Tejas. In a dog fight or bvr fight
> 
> As for those referring jaguar they will operate as strike only were we maintain air supremacy as cas or x strike package flanked by air superiority fighters.
> 
> We would losing pilots




You know this is wrong right? The Mirage V horus is BVR capable with the Mica. That puts it better in class than the 29 and MKI due to its superior AAM.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

It looks like PAF is not just buying the Horus upgraded Mirage5s but all 80 that remain airworthy along with spares. May be PAF will rebuild and upgrade them to Horus standards so that it can raise some new squadrons dedicated for navy and land attack roles.

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## Saifullah

Pandora said:


> Dude no matter how you paint it its an obsolete platform. We are still using it bcz we have no other option for now but lets not paint it as some next gen aircraft which performs amazingly. We call Indian Migs 21 flying coffins but in comparison our mirages are nothing less than graves.


Mirages are more reliable than migs and will be used for Strike role.They will get the job done, you don't need press when you can use the a simple hammer and that's what M3/5 are for PAF.
Fortunately our neighbours are not that proactive in getting their shit together so it works for now and add to our capability.
JF17 are going to replace old jets.

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## denel

Akh1112 said:


> You know this is wrong right? The Mirage V horus is BVR capable with the Mica. That puts it better in class than the 29 and MKI due to its superior AAM.


Friend, no one knows the state in which these EAF birds are in; most like in mid to poor. Mostly likely to be recobbled up and salvaged where needed; others will cannabilised for parts. conservatively out of the 30+; let us say 16 will work out.

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## Pandora

SQ8 said:


> 4.95
> 
> 
> Who made the bold claim?
> As for next gen aircraft- unless you or your family paid $2 billion in taxes last year or intend to give that to the PAF because mine sure doesn’t ; be happy with whatever this miserably broke country can afford and still make work against an enemy that can buy you ten times over with their coffers.



Yehi tu masla hai tum logon ka. We here are arguing about a fighter jet and you bring my family into it. Just shows you are intolerant and small person. I Could have given an apt reply but i dont want to bother with waste of space like you.

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## SQ8

Pandora said:


> Yehi tu masla hai tum logon ka. We here are arguing about a fighter jet and you bring my family into it. Just shows you are intolerant and small person. I Could have given an apt reply but i dont want to bother with waste of space like you.


You seem to have misinterpreted this and have given the usual reactionary angst and frothing at your mouth without bothering to actually understand my point.

let me apologize and leave your family out of it and include mine so your sensitive self is less offended.

My family did not, does not and likely will not make enough to pay $2 billion in taxes or donate that amount to the PAF to let it purchase something like the Typhoon or Rafale. Count the many other families who make up the actual tax payers of Pakistan who pay what they actually owe and you will realize that after every other state mechanism has taken its share with their attached losses of corruption and mismanagement, when all other projects such as the JF-17 and AEW etc and the loans on them have been serviced; what is left is sufficient only to purchase such stop gap “junk” to meet our capability requirements.

So you should be glad we were able to take this “Junk” and make it do what it does today.

Now if this concept is too offensive as reality to you, then your highness can agree to disagree since I have no energy to spend on you.

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## Akh1112

denel said:


> Friend, no one knows the state in which these EAF birds are in; most like in mid to poor. Mostly likely to be recobbled up and salvaged where needed; others will cannabilised for parts. conservatively out of the 30+; let us say 16 will work out.




Thats fine, the comparison is still valid.


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## Ahmet Pasha

Why is PN doubling down on what are now vintage platforms??


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## SQ8

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Why is PN doubling down on what are now vintage platforms??


There are not for PN as such.
These were to add and complement the ROSE fleet and create a strike platform that at the end of the day will be better than the JF-17 at low level strike and a bomb truck.

Back in 2002 I asked then of Kamra why we dont get Gripen and their answer was simple - we don’t want another fighter - we need a bomber. That was our fascination with the original Mirage , then M2K and is our fascination today with these.

We need something to carry a sizable bomb load at low level between whatever radar gaps we can create through SEAD and EW to flatten Indian targets - then run out of there; the Mirage does just that.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Ok, why is PAF doing so??
If it was M2K it would've made more sense to me personally.


SQ8 said:


> There are not for PN as such.


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## SQ8

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Ok, why is PAF doing so??
> If it was M2K it would've made more sense to me personally.


Edited reply above - and the M2K was denied to us to push Rafale.

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## StormBreaker

SQ8 said:


> Edited reply above - and the M2K was denied to us to push Rafale.


JH-7 should have been bought for scrap prices,
i am sure China would want to push that if someone wants. 

Aren’t they Bomb Trucks ?


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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> This is typical Strike package for Jaguar
> 
> Mki & Tejas will need to protect the Jaguar


NO this is not a jaguar strike package BS stop using the word's strike package, This is not even close to what an offensive look's like.

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## SQ8

StormBreaker said:


> JH-7 should have been bought for scrap prices,
> i am sure China would want to push that if someone wants.
> 
> Aren’t they Bomb Trucks ?


No, because they aren’t any better than 70’s aircraft and the additional logistics and training required to integrate them would offset any “scrap” value.

The mirages we know inside out - when they land any PAF mirage pilot can strap in and take them to war tomorrow. A Pakistani Mirage technician can change the engine or radar set on it - and an engineer can easily add a hypersonic cruise missile onto it knowing exactly where to run the wiring from and where to draw power and how much from. 
Most Parts for the mirages can be taken from a EL to a Blue Flash to a Horus and bought in bulk for discount.

This was true in 1980 for blue flash 6, EL or DD or any of those we bought in the years before this. All the while this commonality reduces costs across the both horizontal and vertical PAF operations; while reducing ancillary losses due to commissions,corruption and mismanagement of funds.

They cannot do that with a JH-7 if they were bought in the 90’s and then parts, training, maintenance will require all new processes that will add to the PAF’s costs.

Ask our neighbor what happens to their budget when it gets cut around 10 different aircraft types with their added commissions and mismanagement.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Egypt has M2Ks as well bout 20 of em??!!!


SQ8 said:


> No, because they aren’t any better than 70’s aircraft and the additional logistics and training required to integrate them would offset any “scrap” value.
> 
> The mirages we know inside out - when they land any PAF mirage pilot can strap in and take them to war tomorrow. A Pakistani Mirage technician can change the engine or radar set on it - and an engineer can easily add a hypersonic cruise missile onto it knowing exactly where to run the wiring from and where to draw power and how much from.
> Most Parts for the mirages can be taken from a EL to a Blue Flash to a Horus and bought in bulk for discount.
> 
> This was true in 1980 for blue flash 6, EL or DD or any of those we bought in the years before this. All the while this commonality reduces costs across the both horizontal and vertical PAF operations; while reducing ancillary losses due to commissions,corruption and mismanagement of funds.
> 
> They cannot do that with a JH-7 if they were bought in the 90’s and then parts, training, maintenance will require all new processes that will add to the PAF’s costs.
> 
> Ask our neighbor what happens to their budget when it gets cut around 10 different aircraft types with their added commissions and mismanagement.


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## khanasifm

Looks like lots of make up stories are in play here he said , she Said and my mama and kaka said ...

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## Nomad40

denel said:


> Friend, no one knows the state in which these EAF birds are in; most like in mid to poor. Mostly likely to be recobbled up and salvaged where needed; others will cannabilised for parts. conservatively out of the 30+; let us say 16 will work out.


If PAF gets 5 recoverable than that's an achievement. the sole purpose of an aircraft is to fly, If the plane needs to be transported than that is a big problem. I believe the Mirages can make the trip in one leg.

Another factor is that of the Egyptian C-130. Most logical sense would be that our IL-76 would make the trips and bring them in but shipping them in will be the most cost effective solution.

People dont Understand how complex it is to integrate, train and arm new systems, besides that Mirage ROSE 3 is the most advanced strike mirage.

Rc-400 probably scrapped, radars cannot survive that long without care, and even if we did get the radars the bulk of our weapon systems are unique and will need hours of coding and upgrades to com channels. The bulk of our offensive weapons are unique to Pakistan only and that needs to be understood.

If any thing a few aircraft might be salvaged probably using our engines I dont think the Horus will have a working engine I would not trust the Egyptians with maintenance of a retired air-craft stored in a desert in +50 -3 conditions.



SQ8 said:


> No, because they aren’t any better than 70’s aircraft and the additional logistics and training required to integrate them would offset any “scrap” value.
> 
> The mirages we know inside out - when they land any PAF mirage pilot can strap in and take them to war tomorrow. A Pakistani Mirage technician can change the engine or radar set on it - and an engineer can easily add a hypersonic cruise missile onto it knowing exactly where to run the wiring from and where to draw power and how much from.
> Most Parts for the mirages can be taken from a EL to a Blue Flash to a Horus and bought in bulk for discount.
> 
> This was true in 1980 for blue flash 6, EL or DD or any of those we bought in the years before this. All the while this commonality reduces costs across the both horizontal and vertical PAF operations; while reducing ancillary losses due to commissions,corruption and mismanagement of funds.
> 
> They cannot do that with a JH-7 if they were bought in the 90’s and then parts, training, maintenance will require all new processes that will add to the PAF’s costs.
> 
> Ask our neighbor what happens to their budget when it gets cut around 10 different aircraft types with their added commissions and mismanagement.


Hi,

Please delete this, 

Thank's 
sincerely Mirage battle commander.


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## StormBreaker

SQ8 said:


> No, because they aren’t any better than 70’s aircraft and the additional logistics and training required to integrate them would offset any “scrap” value.
> 
> The mirages we know inside out - when they land any PAF mirage pilot can strap in and take them to war tomorrow. A Pakistani Mirage technician can change the engine or radar set on it - and an engineer can easily add a hypersonic cruise missile onto it knowing exactly where to run the wiring from and where to draw power and how much from.
> Most Parts for the mirages can be taken from a EL to a Blue Flash to a Horus and bought in bulk for discount.
> 
> This was true in 1980 for blue flash 6, EL or DD or any of those we bought in the years before this. All the while this commonality reduces costs across the both horizontal and vertical PAF operations; while reducing ancillary losses due to commissions,corruption and mismanagement of funds.
> 
> They cannot do that with a JH-7 if they were bought in the 90’s and then parts, training, maintenance will require all new processes that will add to the PAF’s costs.
> 
> Ask our neighbor what happens to their budget when it gets cut around 10 different aircraft types with their added commissions and mismanagement.


I still feel disappointed that given our inside out experience of decades with Mirages,
We didn’t make our own Mirage airframes secretively, While creating an illusion of it being an old airframe.

Surely an Org that can make Thunder can utilize MRF and AMF for such purpose with a bit of help from China for Moulds and structure.

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## SQ8

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> If PAF gets 5 recoverable than that's an achievement. the sole purpose of an aircraft is to fly, If the plane needs to be transported than that is a big problem. I believe the Mirages can make the trip in one leg.
> 
> Another factor is that of the Egyptian C-130. Most logical sense would be that our IL-76 would make the trips and bring them in but shipping them in will be the most cost effective solution.
> 
> People dont Understand how complex it is to integrate, train and arm new systems, besides that Mirage ROSE 3 is the most advanced strike mirage.
> 
> Rc-400 probably scrapped, radars cannot survive that long without care, and even if we did get the radars the bulk of our weapon systems are unique and will need hours of coding and upgrades to com channels. The bulk of our offensive weapons are unique to Pakistan only and that needs to be understood.
> 
> If any thing a few aircraft might be salvaged probably using our engines I dont think the Horus will have a working engine I would not trust the Egyptians with maintenance of a retired air-craft stored in a desert in +50 -3 conditions.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Please delete this,
> 
> Thank's
> sincerely Mirage battle commander.


Why?


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## Nomad40

SQ8 said:


> Why?


what?


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## StormBreaker

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> what?


*Delete*

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## untitled

StormBreaker said:


> I still feel disappointed that given our inside out experience of decades with Mirages,
> We didn’t make our own Mirage airframes secretively, While creating an illusion of it being an old airframe.


Because the JF17 was supposed to replace all the Mirages as well. But then politics happened and we couldn't get the original components envisioned for the Thunder. It was then we realised we not only needed a mini F16 (JF17) but also needed a mini Mirage.

Hence the Mirages will soldier on for now

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## StormBreaker

untitled said:


> Because the JF17 was supposed to replace all the Mirages as well. But then politics happened and we couldn't get the original components envisioned for the Thunder. It was then we realised we not only needed a mini F16 (JF17) but also needed a mini Mirage.
> 
> Hence the Mirages will soldier on for now


Current components are better than what we envisioned for, I think whatever happened, was for our best,
Italy or France won’t give you what China is providing us now in terms of missiles and avionics, shortfalls here and there but just a matter of time

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## Bilal Khan 777

untitled said:


> Because the JF17 was supposed to replace all the Mirages as well. But then politics happened and we couldn't get the original components envisioned for the Thunder. It was then we realised we not only needed a mini F16 (JF17) but also needed a mini Mirage.
> 
> Hence the Mirages will soldier on for now


JF-17 cannot replace the Mirage. Mirage 3/5 have a unique space in Pakistan that can only be replaced by an equivalent deep strike fighter, which will sooner or later be acquired. JF17, in its blocks, replaces the A5 (complete), F6(complete), F7P (complete), F7PG (underway) and then F16 Peace Eagle Blk 15. Other aircraft shall be acquired meanwhile to replace the mighty Mirage. However, you are correct to assume that in some roles and tasks, such as AD and AS, JF17 being a truly multi-role bird, is doing roles where Mirage was originally serving.

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## Nomad40

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> JF-17 cannot replace the Mirage. Mirage 3/5 have a unique space in Pakistan that can only be replaced by an equivalent deep strike fighter, which will sooner or later be acquired. JF17, in its blocks, replaces the A5 (complete), F7P (complete), F7PG (underway) and then F16 Peace Eagle Blk 15. Other aircraft shall be acquired meanwhile to replace the mighty Mirage. However, you are correct to assume that in some roles and tasks, such as AD and AS, JF17 being a truly multi-role bird, is doing roles where Mirage was originally serving.


_The bulk of our offensive capability has been built around the mirage, I personally think by assessing the history of PAF that the mirages are going nowhere for a decade, either the PAF can temper the standoff weapons for the jf-17 or induct newer platform------PAF needs to go under modernization and it need's to be quick.

The indian's are bridging the gap we need to equidistant it as we did with the F-16._

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## volatile

What an irony we are marketing JF17 thunder to Egyptians to replace Mirages and we are buying those Mirages as our JF17 cant fulfill that role according to posters

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## SQ8

StormBreaker said:


> What an irony we are marketing JF17 thunder to Egyptians to replace Mirages and we are buying those Mirages as our JF17 cant fulfill that role according to posters


Whats ironic about it?
In the 70’s the UK was selling the Americans the harrier while buying some remaining F-4Ks.

You get what meets your requirements

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## jupiter2007

volatile said:


> What an irony we are marketing JF17 thunder to Egyptians to replace Mirages and we are buying those Mirages as our JF17 cant fulfill that role according to posters



We have to keep at least 2 squadrons of Mirage until 2030 so we need Egyptian mirage for spare parts.


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## The Maverick

Strike aircraft need excellent jammers and ew suites and highly advanced navigation and attack radars in order to penetrate increasingly sophisticated air defences.

If you intend to soldier on for decade and this is your primary strike platform then it will need to survive 
Tiered s400 and Barak 8 and Akash defence. Then avoid detetection by 5 different bvr platforms from.rafale mki mig29upg tejas and mirage2000.

That's why Egypt which deploys same fighters as India ie Rafale mirage and mig29 scrapped the mirage 5 . It's limitations are to great to influence a modern full.scale war


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## Shah_Deu

volatile said:


> What an irony we are marketing JF17 thunder to Egyptians to replace Mirages and we are buying those Mirages as our JF17 cant fulfill that role according to posters


This is no irony here. You just cant replace an ol' Hilux pickup with a new Corolla. Both serve their own purposes. One country might be exporting one of them but still importing the other, there stand no contradictions.

US and Europe for instance though producing Boeings and Airbuses respectively still import the Embraers and Bombardiers from Brazil and Canada when they have no similar product in their own portfolio. It doesnt signal any irony on their part.

JF-17 and Mirages stand to serve two different purposes. JF-17 cant do Mirages' job as good and vice versa.

Egypt if it ever decides to buy the JF-17 wouldnt do it to replace its mirages, it would rather do it to fill the gap of a light multirole fighter to build up numbers quickly and cost effectively.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> JF-17 cannot replace the Mirage. Mirage 3/5 have a unique space in Pakistan that can only be replaced by an equivalent deep strike fighter, which will sooner or later be acquired. JF17, in its blocks, replaces the A5 (complete), F6(complete), F7P (complete), F7PG (underway) and then F16 Peace Eagle Blk 15. Other aircraft shall be acquired meanwhile to replace the mighty Mirage. However, you are correct to assume that in some roles and tasks, such as AD and AS, JF17 being a truly multi-role bird, is doing roles where Mirage was originally serving.



Welcome back - haven't seen you in a while. Hope all is well. I don't know what exactly the mirage can do which the JF-17 can't - I'm assuming low level strike - very low level, where the clean delta shines with its stability and ability to carry heavy munitions. 

I personally also feel a new aircraft is needed to replace the Mirages, as the enemy has improved their defenses and this requires an equivalent better response. Perhaps a low cost program like the F-117 that took the parts bin of multiple aircraft such as the F-16 and created a new aircraft out of it, that met the challenge of improved Soviet air defenses admirably. 

Would love to see your input on the new mini-submarine project (SWAT), the major upgradation of the surface fleet and the supposed boomers coming. And according to some, the J-15.

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## volatile

Shah_Deu said:


> This is no irony here. You just cant replace an ol' Hilux pickup with a new Corolla. Both serve their own purposes. One country might be exporting one of them but still importing the other, there stand no contradictions.
> 
> US and Europe for instance though producing Boeings and Airbuses respectively still import the Embraers and Bombardiers from Brazil and Canada when they have no similar product in their own portfolio. It doesnt signal any irony on their part.
> 
> JF-17 and Mirages stand to serve two different purposes. JF-17 cant do Mirages' job as good and vice versa.
> 
> Egypt if it ever decides to buy the JF-17 wouldnt do it to replace its mirages, it would rather do it to fill the gap of a light multirole fighter to build up numbers quickly and cost effectively.


Oh bhai when you dont know any thing dont put your nose in any matter ,please read first then comment .JF17 was designed keeping in mind replacing the A5s,F7s and Mirages 

The *PAC JF-17 Thunder* (Urdu: جے ایف-١٧ گرج‎), or *CAC FC-1 Xiaolong* (pinyin: _Xiāo Lóng_; lit.: 'Fierce Dragon'), is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China. It was designed to replace the A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V combat aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force.

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## Shah_Deu

volatile said:


> Oh bhai when you dont know any thing dont put your nose in any matter ,please read first then comment .JF17 was designed keeping in mind replacing the A5s,F7s and Mirages
> 
> The *PAC JF-17 Thunder* (Urdu: جے ایف-١٧ گرج‎), or *CAC FC-1 Xiaolong* (pinyin: _Xiāo Lóng_; lit.: 'Fierce Dragon'), is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China. It was designed to replace the A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V combat aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force.


Brother, no need to flare up, my point was just that the JF-17 is still not mature enough to replace the Mirages in strike role on 1:1 basis. JF-17 can perform the task of Mirages but still not as good as the Mirages themselves. And if the Horus news is true, why would PAF still want to buy used Mirages given it already has 100+ JF-17s in inventory?

JF-17 will continue to evolve and hopefully will grow up to be much more stronger and reliable in strike role as well, but Mirages still remain the preferred platforms for PAF in strike role. 27.02 was just a validation of that. Peace!

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## Ultima Thule

The Maverick said:


> Strike aircraft need excellent jammers and ew suites and highly advanced navigation and attack radars in order to penetrate increasingly sophisticated air defences.
> 
> If you intend to soldier on for decade and this is your primary strike platform then it will need to survive
> Tiered s400 and Barak 8 and Akash defence. Then avoid detetection by 5 different bvr platforms from.rafale mki mig29upg tejas and mirage2000.
> 
> That's why Egypt which deploys same fighters as India ie Rafale mirage and mig29 scrapped the mirage 5 . It's limitations are to great to influence a modern full.scale war


you know WHAT IS STAND OFF LAUNCHER, IT WOULD LAUNCH RAAD -1/2 WELL OUTSIDE THE RANGE OF YOUR AIR DEFENSE/INTERCEPTORS AND RAAD-1/2 STILL ABLE REACH DEEP INSIDE INDIA

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## The Eagle

The Maverick said:


> Strike aircraft need excellent jammers and ew suites and highly advanced navigation and attack radars in order to penetrate increasingly sophisticated air defences.
> 
> If you intend to soldier on for decade and this is your primary strike platform then it will need to survive
> Tiered s400 and Barak 8 and Akash defence. Then avoid detetection by 5 different bvr platforms from.rafale mki mig29upg tejas and mirage2000.
> 
> That's why Egypt which deploys same fighters as India ie Rafale mirage and mig29 scrapped the mirage 5 . It's limitations are to great to influence a modern full.scale war



No matter how many times you ask twisted question and India by any means try to know something inside strike planes; trust me no one will tell you how capable those are. The only thing & time when India will become aware of quality of PAF birds, will be another 27th February type situation. These birds were obsolete but still neither the Asian Raptor (MKI) nor the mighty Air Defence worked at all & strike package delivered the punch.

Since IAF is purchasing further new gen & capable platform; the counter offensive will come into play again when needed. The day PAF failed to counter IAF practically, will be the day when Pakistan will be at mercy of enemy and I don't see that coming ever since it didn't happen while IAF had all the shiny toys as compare to small PAF with fewer planes. Since, Pakistan Military doesn't believe in power on the paper and through media; everyone will be jumping all around due to the look of it. The capability will only be proven when the time comes whether S400, Barak or Rafale, Meteor or MiG-29s.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Armchair said:


> Welcome back - haven't seen you in a while. Hope all is well. I don't know what exactly the mirage can do which the JF-17 can't - I'm assuming low level strike - very low level, where the clean delta shines with its stability and ability to carry heavy munitions.
> 
> I personally also feel a new aircraft is needed to replace the Mirages, as the enemy has improved their defenses and this requires an equivalent better response. Perhaps a low cost program like the F-117 that took the parts bin of multiple aircraft such as the F-16 and created a new aircraft out of it, that met the challenge of improved Soviet air defenses admirably.
> 
> Would love to see your input on the new mini-submarine project (SWAT), the major upgradation of the surface fleet and the supposed boomers coming. And according to some, the J-15.



I am just an old man. I don't know much about these topics.

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## volatile

Shah_Deu said:


> Brother, no need to flare up, my point was just that the JF-17 is still not mature enough to replace the Mirages in strike role on 1:1 basis. JF-17 can perform the task of Mirages but still not as good as the Mirages themselves. And if the Horus news is true, why would PAF still want to buy used Mirages given it already has 100+ JF-17s in inventory?
> 
> JF-17 will continue to evolve and hopefully will grow up to be much more stronger and reliable in strike role as well, but Mirages still remain the preferred platforms for PAF in strike role. 27.02 was just a validation of that. Peace!


Please refer to my 1st comments that this is a bad decision from Marketing point of view or commercially as when you are promoting your product which is supposed to be replacing there Mirages and yours ,you are offering them assembly line and then you are asking for Mirages 2nd hand of 40 year old frames saying JF17 is not ready yet ,JF17 has built in many flaws like the undercarriage very lower to ground and many other *** well ,we need a decent replacement of Mirages as JF17 will never able to do all of the thing


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## denel

volatile said:


> Oh bhai when you dont know any thing dont put your nose in any matter ,please read first then comment .JF17 was designed keeping in mind replacing the A5s,F7s and Mirages
> 
> The *PAC JF-17 Thunder* (Urdu: جے ایف-١٧ گرج‎), or *CAC FC-1 Xiaolong* (pinyin: _Xiāo Lóng_; lit.: 'Fierce Dragon'), is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China. It was designed to replace the A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V combat aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force.


I concur with you but from concept until now, there are gaps in what jf-17 can do which over time will narrow. Frankly if PAC had undertaken to a cheetah upgrade back 20 years ago when everything was available. In summary given the economic situation - M3/5 will just be patched along as temporary gaps; we know temporary has a bad habit of becoming permanent.

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## litman

Zarvan said:


> 4.5 Generation Jets are not going anywhere for next 30 to 35 years at least. And PAF will go for at least one 4.5th Generation before looking for 5th Generation


PAF cant afford to go for a new 4.5 gen platform which has limited utilityin the modern warfare. we cant afford. the government is thinking about reducing pensions and we are talking here about inducting new air crafts as if they are toys. PAF will maintain and upgrade the present fleet of JFTs and in future they may (if the economy allows) they will induct a fifth gen jet in a decade or so so as to have a minimum deterrance . as war with india is unlikely it is unwise to waste resources on air crafts just for the sake of competition .after 10 years PAF will comprise of 3 types of air crafts only JFT, F-16 and some fifth gen jets.


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## volatile

denel said:


> I concur with you but from concept until now, there are gaps in what jf-17 can do which over time will narrow. Frankly if PAC had undertaken to a cheetah upgrade back 20 years ago when everything was available. In summary given the economic situation - M3/5 will just be patched along as temporary gaps; we know temporary has a bad habit of becoming permanent.


Hi no one is denying the fact ,JF17 provides simple solutions and it will be unfair to task him with every thing atleast Jack of all trades but that requires lot of R&D like JSF programe ,here PAF administration know what are the short comings and I respect these .For some thing in league of Mirages you need some thing else .IMO its a bad commercial move as it appears Mirages are out of question for JF17

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## denel

volatile said:


> Hi no one is denying the fact ,JF17 provides simple solutions and it will be unfair to task him with every thing atleast Jack of all trades but that requires lot of R&D like JSF programe ,here PAF administration know what are the short comings and I respect these .For some thing in league of Mirages you need some thing else .IMO its a bad commercial move as it appears Mirages are out of question for JF17


Yes i concur, again. we will disagree with your verbiage PAF admin... JH7 in my opinion remains the best strike aircraft to replace M3/5 short of getting PAC work with Atlas engineers to revive the cheetah upgrade.

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## Tumba

Wonder what more capabilities paf getting with 3rd gen Mirage 3 why not order few Jf-17 as pakistani says they have full control on manufacturing

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## Bilal Khan 777

Tumba said:


> Wonder what more capabilities paf getting with 3rd gen Mirage 3 why not order few Jf-17 as pakistani says they have full control on manufacturing



Lets wait for your Rafale's instead, and then see if you F it up like you did the Flankers.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

denel said:


> Yes i concur, again. we will disagree with your verbiage PAF admin... JH7 in my opinion remains the best strike aircraft to replace M3/5 short of getting PAC work with Atlas engineers to revive the cheetah upgrade.


The only reason why PAF is still continuing to use the Mirages and the limitation of JF17 that can be judged from all the development threads comes down to this:
Historically ground attack aircraft would fly very low to the ground keeping visual contact had their wings mounted on top of the fuselage. Examples JH7, Tornado, Jaguar.

France on the other hand produced Mirage 3 with ground hugging capabilities using a low delta wing configuration which till today is a trademark achievement. 

USA had retractable wings so that the F14 could be used for low level flight as well as high level. 

This could be the only reason why JF-17 is not yet up to the PAF standards, may be increased wing area of JF-17 block 3 could be addressing this along with higher speed and more powerful engine.

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## Akh1112

The Maverick said:


> Strike aircraft need excellent jammers and ew suites and highly advanced navigation and attack radars in order to penetrate increasingly sophisticated air defences.
> 
> If you intend to soldier on for decade and this is your primary strike platform then it will need to survive
> Tiered s400 and Barak 8 and Akash defence. Then avoid detetection by 5 different bvr platforms from.rafale mki mig29upg tejas and mirage2000.
> 
> That's why Egypt which deploys same fighters as India ie Rafale mirage and mig29 scrapped the mirage 5 . It's limitations are to great to influence a modern full.scale war



This is false, Strike aircraft do not operate independently. A strike package is bound to have JF-17 escorts which carry dedicated jamming gear, so there's that.

Secondly, you are assuming the Mirages even have to leave Pakistani airspace, remember, Ra'ad has a range of like 700km, its the answer to your 'tiered' air defence setup, besides, the PAF has been training in SEAD with China, even against the S400. Regardless, depending on where the S-400 is deployed, it isnt exactly going to be the most effective thing because of the terrain in the area, nothing to stop a Mirage V from flying down low, popping a ra'ad from 150km out and laying waste to your tiered SAM network. Also, its more a worry about your BVR platforms actually being able to detect the strike package. May i remind you, the JF-17 effectively outclasses every BVR platform you have in service bar the Rafales. Id be more worried about your platforms catching an SD-10 or perhaps, a PL-15.

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## denel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The only reason why PAF is still continuing to use the Mirages and the limitation of JF17 that can be judged from all the development threads comes down to this:
> Historically ground attack aircraft would fly very low to the ground keeping visual contact had their wings mounted on top of the fuselage. Examples JH7, Tornado, Jaguar.
> 
> France on the other hand produced Mirage 3 with ground hugging capabilities using a low delta wing configuration which till today is a trademark achievement.
> 
> USA had retractable wings so that the F14 could be used for low level flight as well as high level.
> 
> This could be the only reason why JF-17 is not yet up to the PAF standards, may be increased wing area of JF-17 block 3 could be addressing this along with higher speed and more powerful engine.


Actually M5 was more a ground attack vs M3. Nevertheless, I doubt there was any terrain following computing navigation unless added as part of ROSE. Cheetah had an attack configuration system which allowed this particular capability - regular IIIEZ did not have that capability.

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## Bilal Khan 777

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The only reason why PAF is still continuing to use the Mirages and the limitation of JF17 that can be judged from all the development threads comes down to this:
> Historically ground attack aircraft would fly very low to the ground keeping visual contact had their wings mounted on top of the fuselage. Examples JH7, Tornado, Jaguar.
> 
> France on the other hand produced Mirage 3 with ground hugging capabilities using a low delta wing configuration which till today is a trademark achievement.
> 
> USA had retractable wings so that the F14 could be used for low level flight as well as high level.
> 
> This could be the only reason why JF-17 is not yet up to the PAF standards, may be increased wing area of JF-17 block 3 could be addressing this along with higher speed and more powerful engine.



It's not a limitation. The advent of SSM relieves the AF of deep strike using A/C only. The issue is numbers. Pilots need to be trained, and pilots need to keep fit. To do that, you need aircraft. Mirage lives on to fill the role, to ensure that we have the pilots and they are fit.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> Actually M5 was more a ground attack vs M3. Nevertheless, I doubt there was any terrain following computing navigation unless added as part of ROSE. Cheetah had an attack configuration system which allowed this particular capability - regular IIIEZ did not have that capability.


Anything on the grapevine regarding your former colleagues or their protégés taking a trip to look at the upgrade?

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## denel

SQ8 said:


> Anything on the grapevine regarding your former colleagues or their protégés taking a trip to look at the upgrade?


no nothing heard with respect to upgrade work.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> no nothing heard with respect to upgrade work.


I think the Cheetah upgrades were useful for their time but Paramount(or whatever represents that knowledge group) needs to present their version of a “EX” type upgrade to the PAF.
Bear in mind that the AWC PAF also has knowledge built in by now so it has to be something they really haven’t the capability for within a reasonable price.

EX’s may be a brand new frame, but MRF could take cues from the JF-17 line to built something. After all, if IAI built the KFIR which is still a great jet (C.10) today comparable to a late model Cheetah then something can be done for a Mirage 2030 type.

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## denel

SQ8 said:


> I think the Cheetah upgrades were useful for their time but Paramount(or whatever represents that knowledge group) needs to present their version of a “EX” type upgrade to the PAF.
> Bear in mind that the AWC PAF also has knowledge built in by now so it has to be something they really haven’t the capability for within a reasonable price.
> 
> EX’s may be a brand new frame, but MRF could take cues from the JF-17 line to built something. After all, if IAI built the KFIR which is still a great jet (C.10) today comparable to a late model Cheetah then something can be done for a Mirage 2030 type.


i believe this was presented long time back; even then a cold shoulder was given. instead they chose to go down the ROSE upgrade.

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## The Eagle

SQ8 said:


> I think the Cheetah upgrades were useful for their time but Paramount(or whatever represents that knowledge group) needs to present their version of a “EX” type upgrade to the PAF.
> Bear in mind that the AWC PAF also has knowledge built in by now so it has to be something they really haven’t the capability for within a reasonable price.
> 
> EX’s may be a brand new frame, but MRF could take cues from the JF-17 line to built something. After all, if IAI built the KFIR which is still a great jet (C.10) today comparable to a late model Cheetah then something can be done for a Mirage 2030 type.



Great suggestion along with possible way to do. I wouldn't insist on resources to do so or the will but a question came to mind that do you expect any opposition by French if we are going to involve in something Mirage-2030 or that name was just a reference but we will having our own bird?

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## SQ8

denel said:


> i believe this was presented long time back; even then a cold shoulder was given. instead they chose to go down the ROSE upgrade.


It all depends upon two things and the priorities/honesty of the leadership for the two:
Technical merit
Kickbacks



The Eagle said:


> Great suggestion along with possible way to do. I wouldn't insist on resources to do so or the will but a question came to mind that do you expect any opposition by French if we are going to involve in something Mirage-2030 or that name was just a reference but we will having our own bird?


The French cant do jack about it anymore - they went all in with the Indians and took themselves off our supplier list. We can call it Mirage 2000 and they have no say in it.

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## denel

SQ8 said:


> It all depends upon two things and the priorities/honesty of the leadership for the two:
> Technical merit
> Kickbacks
> 
> 
> The French cant do jack about it anymore - they went all in with the Indians and took themselves off our supplier list. We can call it Mirage 2000 and they have no say in it.


It was more of the later. Cheetah upgrade or even a tier 2 upgrade would have brought systems and aircraft closer to M2K; this would have included helmet mounted sights (20 yrs back). french had bigger packets to pay.

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## The Eagle

SQ8 said:


> The French cant do jack about it anymore - they went all in with the Indians and took themselves off our supplier list. We can call it Mirage 2000 and they have no say in it.



Then the only reason to no go for such a surprising development could be that PAF might have something on mind fulfilling Mirage role to the fullest & being a 4.5++ platform with other capabilities. Wanted to bother you to know more of possibilities your view & experience that whether PAF may go ahead with Mirage-2030 idea ( I personally liked it as that will in-fact surprise many for years to come) or there has to be a newer platform for replacement and take over the role of retiring Mirage platform.

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## Talon

All these lengthy discussions gone to waste if C130s didn't bring any mirages..which most probably they didn't..

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> It's not a limitation. The advent of SSM relieves the AF of deep strike using A/C only. The issue is numbers. Pilots need to be trained, and pilots need to keep fit. To do that, you need aircraft. Mirage lives on to fill the role, to ensure that we have the pilots and they are fit.


The current crop of Mirage drivers don't share that point of view, but good summary nonetheless. By fit meaning current with the profession, physical fitness thankfully is being addressed strongly by the leadership these days.

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## Imran Khan

Hodor said:


> All these lengthy discussions gone to waste if C130s didn't bring any mirages..which most probably they didn't..


ALLAH kareen yehi ho . we are tired of these vintage mirages and i wish they will be grounded tonight . only thunders and falcons are enough and we have to stick on 5th gen program till then . PAF have became a kabari shop these days man .

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> All these lengthy discussions gone to waste if C130s didn't bring any mirages..which most probably they didn't..


I would doubt C-130s are bringing in complete airframes - something else came or went.
Could be related to Mirages or could be the Egyptians evacuating embassy equipment and staff to reduce footprint during COVID.

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## Ali_Baba

Imran Khan said:


> ALLAH kareen yehi ho . we are tired of these vintage mirages and i wish they will be grounded tonight . only thunders and falcons are enough and we have to stick on 5th gen program till then . PAF have became a kabari shop these days man .



I agree. I am very tired of seeing PAF buy up these old relics and then people try to explain how they are more relevant to PAF usecase than a JF17 does.

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## Imran Khan

Ali_Baba said:


> I agree. I am very tired of seeing PAF buy up these old relics and then people try to explain how they are more relevant to PAF usecase than a JF17 does.


if they were that much good why France stop production and some 15 countries retired them already

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## Sunny4pak

Imran Khan said:


> if they were that much good why France stop production and some 15 countries retired them already


_Sir Je, Coz Itnay Paison mein Yahi Kuch Milta hai. Money hai tu Honey hai, I mean not that GF Honny._


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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> USA had retractable wings so that the F14 could be used for low level flight as well as high level.


Not retractable but right word for F14 was VARIABLE SWEEP WING

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## BATMAN

Thank you Egypt & thank you Sisi.... and that's the only thank you will ever get here.

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## mzeeshanfahd

StormBreaker said:


> JH-7 should have been bought for scrap prices,
> i am sure China would want to push that if someone wants.
> 
> Aren’t they Bomb Trucks ?



now now come on .... you are trying to poke #mustankhan ..... you naughty boy .....

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## Armchair

denel said:


> It was more of the later. Cheetah upgrade or even a tier 2 upgrade would have brought systems and aircraft closer to M2K; this would have included helmet mounted sights (20 yrs back). french had bigger packets to pay.



What a shame. And then someone will say "PAF are professionals, they know best, don't question them"


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## StormBreaker

mzeeshanfahd said:


> now now come on .... you are trying to poke #mustankhan ..... you naughty boy .....


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## Armchair

Mastan Khan doesn't actually think the JH-7 is a good aircraft for the Mirage platform for strike missions over land. 

I personally feel we should take a page from the US play book. When the US faced an increasingly better equiped Soviet capability in terms of SAMs and IADS, they didn't try to make bigger, faster, more sophisticated strike aircraft. 

They went old school with Skunk works, built aircraft out of spare parts bin, and built the "Wobbling Goblin". An aircraft with a specific mission - to evade radar and put two 2000lb laser guided bombs on target. 

What Pak needs is a Mirage 2000 - JF-17 - F-117 hybrid. A mangled genetic khichri that will do exactly that. We need a Pakistani Skunk Works team.

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## The Eagle

Armchair said:


> What a shame. And then someone will say "PAF are professionals, they know best, don't question them"



Indeed, they can see the other side of coin as well. There are mistakes for any reasons but still, PAF as a whole have achievements and that fits the definition of them being professional.. I mean still, far better than the ones have nothing but to mock & mock just because someone's dream didn't come true. Mistakes happens but given the size & resources of PAF, PA or PN; still doing far better. Questioning is not opposed as long as you aren't offending other people or hurting sentiments. Since, if you have claimed the liberty to mock a force including the people that respects them; don't complain if someone is coming at you. All just I wanted to say is, respect the opinion of everyone and don't just jump on the gun merely because of some past mistakes. 

The shame that you felt; were the one beating the hell out of IAF on 27th Feb and does so before as well.

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## Armchair

Bribery is not a "mistake". It is a crime. Punishable except for the pretty boys who think they are above the land they swore to protect and flaunt its laws. 

This is what we call apologetics. Making excuses. And this is why bribery harms Pakistan at the highest levels, specially in the PAF, more than the PA. 

A crime is a crime. Stop making excuses for it. Stop lying about it. And stop appealing to patriotism and emotion to hide this. 



The Eagle said:


> Indeed, they can see the other side of coin as well. There are mistakes for any reasons but still, PAF as a whole have achievements and that fits the definition of them being professional.. I mean still, far better than the ones have nothing but to mock & mock just because someone's dream didn't come true. Mistakes happens but given the size & resources of PAF, PA or PN; still doing far better. Questioning is not opposed as long as you aren't offending other people or hurting sentiments. Since, if you have claimed the liberty to mock a force including the people that respects them; don't complain if someone is coming at you. All just I wanted to say is, respect the opinion of everyone and don't just jump on the gun merely because of some past mistakes.
> 
> The shame that you felt; were the one beating the hell out of IAF on 27th Feb and does so before as well.





The Eagle said:


> The shame that you felt



I think its meaningless to talk to shameless people about shame - they just don't get it.

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## The Eagle

Armchair said:


> View attachment 651121
> 
> 
> Bribery is not a "mistake". It is a crime. Punishable except for the pretty boys who think they are above the land they swore to protect and flaunt its laws.
> 
> This is what we call apologetics. Making excuses. And this is why bribery harms Pakistan at the highest levels, specially in the PAF, more than the PA.
> 
> A crime is a crime. Stop making excuses for it. Stop lying about it. And stop appealing to patriotism and emotion to hide this.



You just need to control yourself and not to include everyone in the list of Bribery or corrupt lot. You are just branding the Force as non professional and still mocking the people that loved them. Just get the suggestion that you need to respect others opinion as well. 

No keyboard warrior ever know how much accountability is being done and it was never marketed to play saint. You are wrongly taking the cover of a word "apologists" while shaming the force. This is should be the last reminder. You want to talk about corrupt or incompetent personnel, do bring the name & all the details along with your claims to support your so-called moral speech or otherwise, you can choose to stay out of it. Pakistan Military (any branch) shouldn't be used for self satisfaction just so that the one doesn't like anything yet never know the details.

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## BATMAN

Imran Khan said:


> if they were that much good why France stop production and some 15 countries retired them already


Delta wing has it's own niche.


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## The Eagle

Armchair said:


> I think its meaningless to talk to shameless people about shame - they just don't get it.



Just don't pretend that you are good at it and still trying to make a come back. You just disrespected a force without bringing specific details for discussion by jumping on the gun by someone else. You are not welcome in this thread and even if you try in other thread, I will be sending you out from discussion. Either bring details of personnel with accurate information of occasion and corruption or negligence or just don't try to be important by merely mocking the Force. I know you don't feel it but still, it is my responsibility to give it a try.

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## Imran Khan

BATMAN said:


> Delta wing has it's own niche.


aag lagy tery delty ko  allah kary fail ho jay kisi din  zahir kha le ya dirya main doob jaay


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## Muhammad Omar

Mirages and JF17 Block 3 can counter Rafales easy...


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## BATMAN

Imran Khan said:


> aag lagy tery delty ko  allah kary fail ho jay kisi din  zahir kha le ya dirya main doob jaay



kitne bhutto maro ge!

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## Bilal Khan 777

Knuckles said:


> The current crop of Mirage drivers don't share that point of view, but good summary nonetheless. By fit meaning current with the profession, physical fitness thankfully is being addressed strongly by the leadership these days.


Yes, a little bit of H, and a little bit of R, and a little bit of B, and they wont agree. I love the Mirage. Spent a lot of time in 8th, but for many here who think we can replace them with JFT, i just have a low oxygen chuckle.

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## BATMAN

@Armchair from where do you think, we'r gona get mirage 2000.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

denel said:


> i believe this was presented long time back; even then a cold shoulder was given. instead they chose to go down the ROSE upgrade.


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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Yes, a little bit of H, and a little bit of R, and a little bit of B, and they wont agree. I love the Mirage. Spent a lot of time in 8th, but for many here who think we can replace them with JFT, i just have a low oxygen chuckle.


Different generation of fighter pilots, being trained for a different type of warfare with applied basics from the past. The current crop may have newer instruments and weapons to deal with yet having to learn 30 years of experience in 8 months definitely would have them question the current role they're assigned to. 

Very interesting, my father never flew Mirages, he was a Viper (still is abroad) and F-6 guy, but my cousin flew with Bandits most of his flying career on Mirages, he thoroughly loved his time on the deltas at Karachi.

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## TheTallGuy

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Yes, a little bit of H, and a little bit of R, and a little bit of B, and they wont agree. I love the Mirage. Spent a lot of time in 8th, but for many here who think we can replace them with JFT, i just have a low oxygen chuckle.



your chuckle reminds me of one my clients who over sped the F-7P chasing a Mirage at low altitude at saffron bandit...Mind you that was a hand shake - IV F-7P still could not catch it..

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## Imran Khan

BATMAN said:


> kitne bhutto maro ge!


if mirage is bhutto of PAF then it will be alive in 2120 too 



Muhammad Omar said:


> Mirages and JF17 Block 3 can counter Rafales easy...


mirages kya wahan chankana bajay gay ???????

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## mingle

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Yes, a little bit of H, and a little bit of R, and a little bit of B, and they wont agree. I love the Mirage. Spent a lot of time in 8th, but for many here who think we can replace them with JFT, i just have a low oxygen chuckle.


Ok we all know everything has to go one day so the mirages what replacement PAF should look at????

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## ali_raza

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Nice package to sustain PAF Mirages till 2025.


welcome back sir

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## denel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


>


Pal, i hate it when people shove youtube with annoying computer voice. It is useless piece of kak ... sorry for my proverbial english. b/s with no value what so ever.



Armchair said:


> Mastan Khan doesn't actually think the JH-7 is a good aircraft for the Mirage platform for strike missions over land.
> 
> I personally feel we should take a page from the US play book. When the US faced an increasingly better equiped Soviet capability in terms of SAMs and IADS, they didn't try to make bigger, faster, more sophisticated strike aircraft.
> 
> They went old school with Skunk works, built aircraft out of spare parts bin, and built the "Wobbling Goblin". An aircraft with a specific mission - to evade radar and put two 2000lb laser guided bombs on target.
> 
> What Pak needs is a Mirage 2000 - JF-17 - F-117 hybrid. A mangled genetic khichri that will do exactly that. We need a Pakistani Skunk Works team.


Well I beg to differ, it is well suited all ways around.



Imran Khan said:


> if they were that much good why France stop production and some 15 countries retired them already


Only top notch variants which mean anything post French are the Kfir/Cheetahs which are all flying in most south american forces.

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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> Ok we all know everything has to go one day so the mirages what replacement PAF should look at????


Spare parts, money, engineering, pilots lives, training, weapons etc etc....the Mirage IIIs and Vs are here to stay for a long time in Pakistan.



denel said:


> Pal, i hate it when people shove youtube with annoying computer voice. It is useless piece of kak ... sorry for my proverbial english. b/s with no value what so ever.
> 
> 
> Well I beg to differ, it is well suited all ways around.
> 
> 
> Only top notch variants which mean anything post French are the Kfir/Cheetahs which are all flying in most south american forces.


Kfirs and Cheetahs addressed the weaknesses. Not to mention the Mirage IIIs operated by the Swiss AF

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## Bilal Khan 777

mingle said:


> Ok we all know everything has to go one day so the mirages what replacement PAF should look at????



J10B or J10C variant with Chinese engine.

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## volatile

denel said:


> Yes i concur, again. we will disagree with your verbiage PAF admin... JH7 in my opinion remains the best strike aircraft to replace M3/5 short of getting PAC work with Atlas engineers to revive the cheetah upgrade.


You have to understand mindset of PAF which is not to experiement too much specially when you have a project which is your baby JF17 .PAF thinks with limited budget thats the reason i admire PAF more than PN/PA as they have a habit of picking up things which they are sure and roots of these are due to fact US trained and 2nd to none attitude now coming to the point of JH7 I love these birds 2 squadrons of these can do wonders for Navy but we have invested soo much in Mirages and experience that it will be a tough ask .I agree with seniour members like Mastan Khan that PAF doesnt know how to market /Sales there is a reason Air forces dotn build planes all over the world



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> France on the other hand produced Mirage 3 with ground hugging capabilities using a low delta wing configuration which till today is a trademark achievement.


Bingo Spot on here



Imran Khan said:


> if mirage is bhutto of PAF then it will be alive in 2120 too


Irony is unlike Bhuttos these little boys deliver what they are tasked off Feb 2019 more recent example

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## araz

Armchair said:


> View attachment 651121
> 
> 
> Bribery is not a "mistake". It is a crime. Punishable except for the pretty boys who think they are above the land they swore to protect and flaunt its laws.
> 
> This is what we call apologetics. Making excuses. And this is why bribery harms Pakistan at the highest levels, specially in the PAF, more than the PA.
> 
> A crime is a crime. Stop making excuses for it. Stop lying about it. And stop appealing to patriotism and emotion to hide this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think its meaningless to talk to shameless people about shame - they just don't get it.


Have you got proof of this bribery you are claiming occured in PAF? just because a decision does not go a certain way does not mean that back handers was the reason. There may have been other reasons. We have been ruled by worst lot of incompetence for at least a decade with funds being cut left right and centre. What do you expect PAC/PAF to do.
A
A



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> J10B or J10C variant with Chinese engine.


Sir.
I understand the need and the choice of fighter. My question is at the cusp of generation change do you actually see this happenning? Secondly where do you see the Chinese engine development and when do you think these will be matured enough for PAF to induct them.
A

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## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> Have you got proof of this bribery you are claiming occured in PAF? just because a decision does not go a certain way does not mean that back handers was the reason. There may have been other reasons. We have been ruled by worst lot of incompetence for at least a decade with funds being cut left right and centre. What do you expect PAC/PAF to do.
> A
> A
> 
> 
> Sir.
> I understand the need and the choice of fighter. My question is at the cusp of generation change do you actually see this happenning? Secondly where do you see the Chinese engine development and when do you think these will be matured enough for PAF to induct them.
> A



PAF has operating Chinese engines for a long time. I see this aircraft coming into PAF service in about 5 years.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> J10B or J10C variant with Chinese engine.


In Bholari its Zaban-e-Zade-aam that J10Cs are coming.

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## Talon

Imran Khan said:


> ALLAH kareen yehi ho . we are tired of these vintage mirages and i wish they will be grounded tonight . only thunders and falcons are enough and we have to stick on 5th gen program till then . PAF have became a kabari shop these days man .


I am a fan of Mirages so personally I would never get tired from seeing these beauties rolling down the runway and PAF got similar plans,if they are able to keep up with their plans or not that's another topic and a maybe major concern for them,Mirages will stay for a while.



SQ8 said:


> I would doubt C-130s are bringing in complete airframes - something else came or went.
> Could be related to Mirages or could be the Egyptians evacuating embassy equipment and staff to reduce footprint during COVID.


Sir Jee I made my statement weeks ago, though I was aware of it long time ago,I could be wrong if and only if the certain issue blocking the deal was solved somehow and this issue was mentioned yesterday by someone here in bold letters and is actually pretty obvious.


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## untitled

Hodor said:


> yesterday by someone here in bold letters and is actually pretty obvious.


The Radar?


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## Bilal Khan 777

Pakistani Fighter said:


> In Bholari its Zaban-e-Zade-aam that J10Cs are coming.



It will eventually. When the contract is signed it will be announced publicly. This is just my personal opinion as I like the aircraft and what it can potentially do.

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## Viper27

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> J10B or J10C variant with Chinese engine.



Don't you think JH-7A would be a better replacement for the Mirages? Or is PAF looking for a multirole aircraft?


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## AMRAAM

Pakistani Fighter said:


> In Bholari its Zaban-e-Zade-aam that J10Cs are coming.


It will make it the 5th platform to manage alongside F-16s, JFTs, Mirages, F-7pg. 

Isn't it just like the IAF who also operate far too many platforms?

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## _NOBODY_

AMRAAM said:


> It will make it the 5th platform to manage alongside F-16s, JFTs, Mirages, F-7pg.
> 
> Isn't it just like the IAF who also operate far too many platforms?


If J-10 comes then it will be replacing mirages and as for F-7s they will be replaced by JF-17s and F-16s.

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## ziaulislam

AMRAAM said:


> It will make it the 5th platform to manage alongside F-16s, JFTs, Mirages, F-7pg.
> 
> Isn't it just like the IAF who also operate far too many platforms?


F7pgs will go as soon as you get something else
Mirages will be phased out by 2030 too. 
F7s are already retired

Pgs were rated for 20 years 2-3k hours. They are almost finished

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## TheTallGuy

SQ8 said:


> 4.95



Sir, that because of canard...4.95?


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## Bilal Khan 777

Knuckles said:


> Different generation of fighter pilots, being trained for a different type of warfare with applied basics from the past. The current crop may have newer instruments and weapons to deal with yet having to learn 30 years of experience in 8 months definitely would have them question the current role they're assigned to.
> 
> Very interesting, my father never flew Mirages, he was a Viper (still is abroad) and F-6 guy, but my cousin flew with Bandits most of his flying career on Mirages, he thoroughly loved his time on the deltas at Karachi.



F6 was my favorite aircraft.


Viper27 said:


> Don't you think JH-7A would be a better replacement for the Mirages? Or is PAF looking for a multirole aircraft?



My boys have flown both. They like what a J10 or similar could offer.

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## Muhammad Omar

Imran Khan said:


> if mirage is bhutto of PAF then it will be alive in 2120 too
> 
> 
> mirages kya wahan chankana bajay gay ???????


Sarcastic tha sir g 



Pakistani Fighter said:


> In Bholari its Zaban-e-Zade-aam that J10Cs are coming.


Allah zaban e Zad e aam Mubarak kre

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## Tipu7

Pakistani Fighter said:


> In Bholari its Zaban-e-Zade-aam that J10Cs are coming.


AFAIK, No J10 is coming in Bholari. 
F16s, Mirages & Erieyes only.

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## syed_yusuf

i think J-10 twin seater with modified j-10 C technology will cut the bill for pakistan


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## The Eagle

Pakistani Fighter said:


> In Bholari its Zaban-e-Zade-aam that J10Cs are coming.



Sir! Bholari is home to Falcons. How come US will digest J-10CEs with Chinese on the same base. Whether J-10Cs or any other Chinese platform; that's not going to park alongside US equipment unless the situation arises like Iranian tomcats.

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## truthfollower

The Eagle said:


> situation arises like Iranian tomcats.


 is it going to?


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## denel

Knuckles said:


> Spare parts, money, engineering, pilots lives, training, weapons etc etc....the Mirage IIIs and Vs are here to stay for a long time in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Kfirs and Cheetahs addressed the weaknesses. Not to mention the Mirage IIIs operated by the Swiss AF


not really; they evolved further and are more towards 4G.


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## The Eagle

truthfollower said:


> is it going to?



I was merely referring to worst situation ever. Since it isn't like this, I don't see them parking next to each other. May be Bholari boys are trolling Americans in full swing.

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## SQ8

TheTallGuy said:


> Sir, that because of canard...4.95?


No - it has to do with the level of stealth and technology onboard based on today’s concepts. 
This is a project that is still being defined in terms of needs and requirements. 
It has many milestones to fully rralitincluding but not limited to
- defining an actual launch timeframe
- Determining costs
- who is going to be part of the R&D team
- define the components(airframe, avionics etc) and features for each(low RCS, Electro-optical targeting, internal ECM etc)
- conceptual prototypes of these components 
And so on ..

a lot of things could change in terms of requirements as time goes by and technology both improves and lowers in cost.

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## denel

Imran Khan said:


> ALLAH kareen yehi ho . we are tired of these vintage mirages and i wish they will be grounded tonight . only thunders and falcons are enough and we have to stick on 5th gen program till then . PAF have became a kabari shop these days man .


frankly these vintages pieces deserve to be given away to museams. Their time and place is definitely gone.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Pakistani Fighter said:


> In Bholari its Zaban-e-Zade-aam that J10Cs are coming.


There is also some chatter that China might be interested in JF17 as well hence the increased production rate. where will they be fielded and when will be disclosed shortly. This is some thing PAF would like as it would give JF17 a boost in sales.

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## khanasifm

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There is also some chatter that China might be interested in JF17 as well hence the increased production rate. where will they be fielded and when will be disclosed shortly. This is some thing PAF would like as it would give JF17 a boost in sales.




Chines still have hundred of j8 and j7 not sure about a5, 

plaaf and plaan order k8 after a while in big numbers so it’s possible


----------



## wasileo80

The Eagle said:


> Sir! Bholari is home to Falcons. How come US will digest J-10CEs with Chinese on the same base. Whether J-10Cs or any other Chinese platform; that's not going to park alongside US equipment unless the situation arises like Iranian tomcats.


The Isolation for Vipers is only for Block 52s not for older Vipers as Sargodha accomodate JF-17s, Mirages, F-7s along with F-16s of No. 9, 11 and 29 Squadrons. So Bholari can have anything from China along with ADF Vipers.

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## The Eagle

wasileo80 said:


> The Isolation for Vipers is only for Block 52s not for older Vipers as Sargodha accomodate JF-17s, Mirages, F-7s along with F-16s of No. 9, 11 and 29 Squadrons. So Bholari can have anything from China along with ADF Vipers.



My friend, Thunders or F-7s, we don't need Chinese at base if these platforms are parked near Vipers. As far as I understand, Americans wouldn't like the presence of Chinese on the same base where F-16s are parked, whether Vipers or not. This is not about any Chinese Birds near viper but more of personnel presence.

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## Nomad40

The Eagle said:


> My friend, Thunders or F-7s, we don't need Chinese at base if these platforms are parked near Vipers. As far as I understand, Americans wouldn't like the presence of Chinese on the same base where F-16s are parked, whether Vipers or not. This is not about any Chinese Birds near viper but more of personnel presence.


Logically there will be no Chinese on our bases.


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Chines still have hundred of j8 and j7 not sure about a5,
> 
> plaaf and plaan order k8 after a while in big numbers so it’s possible


correction. you are right, those were retired; i was referring to an upgrade they were doing on Q5s..


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## araz

AMRAAM said:


> It will make it the 5th platform to manage alongside F-16s, JFTs, Mirages, F-7pg.
> 
> Isn't it just like the IAF who also operate far too many platforms?


Pgs will be gone with the induction of Block 3(I gather they are next on the replacement ladder along with non upgraded M3/5s). It is M3 replacement that is being talked about. We will retain 3(maximally 4 while platforms are being replaced) platforms which should be manageable. Interestingly it reproves my point which I have been trying to say for ages, PAF will only induct one new type of aircraft at a time. The only exception is older platforms that we have infrastructure for.
A

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## ssethii

Mirage Rebuild Factory is there for a reason.


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## araz

@Bilal Khan 777.
Sir a question for you if I may ask. The last ACM said (if I remember correctly) that with the advent of block 3 the plane will achieve design maturity. Does this translate into further modifications not being possible or and just newer technologies will be incorporated as it becomes available. 
Lastly is there potential in revisiting the design of JFT and reviewing if it can be modified to suit our future needs better.
Thanks in advance

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## Bilal Khan 777

araz said:


> @Bilal Khan 777.
> Sir a question for you if I may ask. The last ACM said (if I remember correctly) that with the advent of block 3 the plane will achieve design maturity. Does this translate into further modifications not being possible or and just newer technologies will be incorporated as it becomes available.
> Lastly is there potential in revisiting the design of JFT and reviewing if it can be modified to suit our future needs better.
> Thanks in advance



Only ACM Sohail Aman could understand what he meant by most things he said. I think what he may have meant that with Block 3, we would be able to achieve what we always wanted, to have a BVR capable aircraft that can undertake AD and EW at standoff ranges. Will this stop the development and upgrades of JFT as a platform? I highly doubt it. Today's electronics are not yesterday's. They will keep being obsolete and we will keep replacing them. Thats the joy of having your own bird, you can do what you like.

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Only ACM Sohail Aman could understand what he meant by most things he said. I think what he may have meant that with Block 3, we would be able to achieve what we always wanted, to have a BVR capable aircraft that can undertake AD and EW at standoff ranges. Will this stop the development and upgrades of JFT as a platform? I highly doubt it. Today's electronics are not yesterday's. They will keep being obsolete and we will keep replacing them. Thats the joy of having your own bird, you can do what you like.


Thank you so much for your response. this statement had always bothered me as I could not understand why he would say something so early in the development cycle of the aircraft. Looking at the F16 the fighter is still being upgraded in spite of being around for more than 40 years
Kind regards
A

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## Sinnerman108

Design maturity would point to the aircraft doing what it was intended to do reliable, repeatedly without surprises.




Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Only ACM Sohail Aman could understand what he meant by most things he said. I think what he may have meant that with Block 3, we would be able to achieve what we always wanted, to have a BVR capable aircraft that can undertake AD and EW at standoff ranges. Will this stop the development and upgrades of JFT as a platform? I highly doubt it. Today's electronics are not yesterday's. They will keep being obsolete and we will keep replacing them. Thats the joy of having your own bird, you can do what you like.

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## CHI RULES

araz said:


> Pgs will be gone with the induction of Block 3(I gather they are next on the replacement ladder along with non upgraded M3/5s). It is M3 replacement that is being talked about. We will retain 3(maximally 4 while platforms are being replaced) platforms which should be manageable. Interestingly it reproves my point which I have been trying to say for ages, PAF will only induct one new type of aircraft at a time. The only exception is older platforms that we have infrastructure for.
> A


Sir do all F7s have already been retired or still in active duty as you have mentioned only PGs for retirement.


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## Incog_nito

Besides the 36 Mirage Vs - does PAF also received the rest as Mirage Vs for spares support?

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Egyptian_Air_Force
https://www.wdmma.org/egyptian-air-force.php

Any possibility of acquiring Egyptian Mirage-2000s?


----------



## air marshal

Another Egyptian C-130H (Reg. No. 1273) landed today at OPRN

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2852

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2853

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## SQ8

Sinnerman108 said:


> Design maturity would point to the aircraft doing what it was intended to do reliable, repeatedly without surprises.


The F-16 was designed to augment the F-15 with a smaller radar and daytime operations with dumb bombs - to say it went much beyond that is an understatement.

It all depends upon the PAF’s ASR and those are revised more frequently as compared to ten years ago.



araz said:


> Thank you so much for your response. this statement had always bothered me as I could not understand why he would say something so early in the development cycle of the aircraft. Looking at the F16 the fighter is still being upgraded in spite of being around for more than 40 years
> Kind regards
> A


Moore’s law also applies - both the pace of development and complexity of electronIcs is increasing but with the advantage of reducing costs as well.

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## Basel

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Yes, a little bit of H, and a little bit of R, and a little bit of B, and they wont agree. I love the Mirage. Spent a lot of time in 8th, but for many here who think we can replace them with JFT, i just have a low oxygen chuckle.



Why not replace them with J-10Cs??

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## Dil Pakistan

Windjammer said:


> *Close Enough. *





The Eagle said:


>



What is the current situation with Egyptian Mirage-V HORUS?

When do we seen them in PAF colors?
How many arrived?
How many to be cannibalized? 
How many to enter service?


----------



## The Eagle

AMRAAM said:


> It has that h4 at the top.



The picture tells the capability of PAF Mirage.



Dil Pakistan said:


> What is the current situation with Egyptian Mirage-V HORUS?



Nothing brother.




Dil Pakistan said:


> When do we seen them in PAF colors?



When the time comes.




Dil Pakistan said:


> How many arrived?


No comments or confirmation.



Dil Pakistan said:


> How many to be cannibalized?


Depends upon the condition of those Air-frames. 



Dil Pakistan said:


> How many to enter service?


It is said that MRF will further finalize and see if the lot has life to fly. All the flyable will be worked and that is expected with confidence.


The real question is that whether the Egyptian Mirages will make it to PAF or not and so far, there's no further news.

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## Tamiyah

air marshal said:


> Two Egyptian C-130H landed today at OPRN
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2882
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2883


I don't get it. What are these C130s bringing. As far as I know there's no official COVID19 aid coming from Egypt. So these C130s should be bringing EAF Mirage that we were told on this forum "bought". If someone know about this please enlighten me.

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## The Eagle

Tamiyah said:


> I don't get it. What are these C130s bringing. As far as I know there's no official COVID19 aid coming from Egypt. So these C130s should be bringing EAF Mirage that we were told on this forum "bought". If someone know about this please enlighten me.



I have moved the post so that PAF News & Discussion thread may not be derailed. Please continue.

On topic: Nobody knows whether brought something or picked anything. Either a stop but that doesn't makes sense for almost 4 sorties in a week time, I think. Only flight radar could have been used to confirm their flying pattern and possibility as such.... @Imran Khan you are good at it... (wese kisi kaam k nahi hu) bhai can you shed some light. On a serious note.

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## Tamiyah

The Eagle said:


> I have moved the post so that PAF News & Discussion thread may not be derailed. Please continue.
> 
> On topic: Nobody knows whether brought something or picked anything. Either a stop but that doesn't makes sense for almost 4 sorties in a week time, I think. Only flight radar could have been used to confirm their flying pattern and possibility as such.... @Imran Khan you are good at it... (wese kisi kaam k nahi hu) bhai can you shed some light. On a serious note.


Yup. And as usual PAF is silent as well as GOP. There must be something cooking. If it was aid there should be any mention of it by FO or any other official.

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## Dil Pakistan

Tamiyah said:


> I don't get it. What are these C130s bringing. As far as I know there's no official COVID19 aid coming from Egypt. So these C130s should be bringing EAF Mirage that we were told on this forum "bought". If someone know about this please enlighten me.



Last time I looked at PAF website, they were loaded with supplies of chewing gums


----------



## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> I have moved the post so that PAF News & Discussion thread may not be derailed. Please continue.
> 
> On topic: Nobody knows whether brought something or picked anything. Either a stop but that doesn't makes sense for almost 4 sorties in a week time, I think. Only flight radar could have been used to confirm their flying pattern and possibility as such.... @Imran Khan you are good at it... (wese kisi kaam k nahi hu) bhai can you shed some light. On a serious note.


OK sir

now lets finish this drama just because of you otherwise i was in mode to play dirty .

these C-130s land for refueling and rest at islamabad and then further they go to china

mostly they go to Beijing Capital - ZBAA, China but some time Dalian - ZYTL, China and Chengdu Shuangliu - ZUUU, China too .its middle of thier 7800km flight and even if they enter china they can not get support because nur khan airbase have full facilities for C-130 so they land at pakistan take rest refuel and inspected before flight by paksitnai C-130s ground crew and then after few hours they have been seen in china .
19/07/2020 CU-CAD was at Beijing Capital






17/05/2020 SU-BAM was spotted at beijieng capital







april/1/2020 SU-BEX was spotted at Dalian china

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## Philip the Arab

Imran Khan said:


> OK sir
> 
> now lets finish this drama just because of you otherwise i was in mode to play dirty .
> 
> these C-130s land for refueling and rest at islamabad and then further they go to china
> 
> mostly they go to Beijing Capital - ZBAA, China but some time Dalian - ZYTL, China and Chengdu Shuangliu - ZUUU, China too . because nur khan airbase have full facilities for C-130 that china did not have so they land at pakistan take rest refuel and inspected before flight by paksitnai C-130s ground crew and then after few hours they have been seen in china .
> 19/07/2020 CU-CAD was at Beijing Capital
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 17/05/2020 SU-BAM was spotted at beijieng capital
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> april/1/2020 SU-BEX was spotted at Dalian china


Maybe has something to do with JF-17 or Chinese missiles or something?


----------



## Imran Khan

Tamiyah said:


> Yup. And as usual PAF is silent as well as GOP. There must be something cooking. If it was aid there should be any mention of it by FO or any other official.


so they have to publish in news today egyption c-130 landed we serve them food we refuel c-130 and honeywagons cleaned it and we filled water tanks inspect the planes ? this is not worth as every day many planes land on air bases as good will support . 

its perfect spot islamabad is 3900km as air travel from islamabad and C-130H range is 3730km with these extra fuel tanks they can maximum reach china mainland but not beijing or Dalian / chengdu . so they need a point to land before 4000km for further travel 3932km from islamabad to beijing . C-130H can not fly strait cairo to beijing 7800km 

so cairo to islamabad 3900km
islamabad to beijieng 3900km 

@The Eagle sara maza kharab kara diya ap ne



Philip the Arab said:


> Maybe has something to do with JF-17 or Chinese missiles or something?


no there is nothing for-jf-17 ITS JUST MIDDLE OF ROUTE STOP OVER on a base which can handle c-130 even if it need to repair or overhaul too . please remember nur khan airbase is the one handle Pakistani c-130s fleet home base logistics repairs and overhauling facilities are there you can do anything with c-130 at that base .every day amercan c-17s and many c-130s land there 


sorry i was trolling previous days

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## Philip the Arab

Imran Khan said:


> no there is nothing for-jf-17 ITS JUST MIDDLE OF ROUTE STOP OVER on a base which can handle c-130 even if it need to repair or overhaul too . please remember nur khan airbase is the one handle Pakistani c-130s fleet home base logistics repairs and overhauling facilities are there you can do anything with c-130 at that base .every day amercan c-17s and many c-130s land there


Why is C-130 going to China though?


----------



## Tamiyah

Imran Khan said:


> so they have to publish in news today egyption c-130 landed we serve them food we refuel c-130 and honeywagons cleaned it and we filled water tanks inspect the planes ? this is not worth as every day many planes land on air bases as good will support .
> 
> its perfect spot islamabad is 3900km as air travel from islamabad and C-130H range is 3730km with these extra fuel tanks they can maximum reach china mainland but not beijing or Dalian / chengdu . so they need a point to land before 4000km for further travel 3932km from islamabad to beijing . C-130H can not fly strait cairo to beijing 7800km
> 
> so cairo to islamabad 3900km
> islamabad to beijieng 3900km
> 
> @The Eagle sara maza kharab kara diya ap ne
> 
> 
> no there is nothing for-jf-17 ITS JUST MIDDLE OF ROUTE STOP OVER on a base which can handle c-130 even if it need to repair or overhaul too . please remember nur khan airbase is the one handle Pakistani c-130s fleet home base logistics repairs and overhauling facilities are there you can do anything with c-130 at that base .every day amercan c-17s and many c-130s land there
> 
> 
> sorry i was trolling previous days


Thank you @Imran Khan .

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## Philip the Arab

Tamiyah said:


> Thank you @Imran Khalid.


 khalid


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## Tamiyah

Philip the Arab said:


> Why is C-130 going to China though?


Probably for COVID supplies.

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## Philip the Arab

Tamiyah said:


> Probably for COVID supplies.


True, true.

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## Tamiyah

Philip the Arab said:


> khalid


It happens bro.


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## Imran Khan

so here they reached on spot

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## Tamiyah

So no Mirages I guess. Haye kahan gaye jo kehrahe ke Mirages are coming.


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## Imran Khan

Philip the Arab said:


> Why is C-130 going to China though?


they go to civilian airport sir its mean they are taking something civilian staff most likely COVID-19 materials/ medicine etc from china



Tamiyah said:


> So no Mirages I guess. Haye kahan gaye jo kehrahe ke Mirages are coming.


apun ne public ko chutiya banaya lock down main maza liya phuddu kaat ke  mirages kya andhy goongy hain khud chal ker nhi a sakty ?

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## Tamiyah

Imran Khan said:


> they go to civilian airport sir its mean they are taking something civilian staff most likely COVID-19 materials/ medicine etc from china
> 
> 
> apun ne public ko chutiya banaya lock down main maza liya phuddu kaat ke  mirages kya andhy goongy hain khud chal ker nhi a sakty ?


Baat mei to dam hai bhai.

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## Enigma SIG

Imran Khan said:


> so here they reached on spot
> 
> View attachment 656505


Sara maza kharab kar dia


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## Imran Khan

Philip the Arab said:


> khalid


today everything is al-khalid as we received tanks 



Enigma SIG said:


> Sara maza kharab kar dia


ask @The Eagle  


ghareeb public was happy for delivery but he asked me to be serious

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## The Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> today everything is al-khalid as we received tanks
> 
> 
> ask @The Eagle
> 
> 
> ghareeb public was happy for delivery but he asked me to be serious



I tagged you for a reason and I knew you can do that but not like this. Dil tu kar raha ha k ban kar du. 

That was a sarcastic serious. Ghalti hu gai.

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## The Raven

So no Mirages from Egypt then?!  almost 50 pages and hundreds of posts later. Why do I get the feeling all the talk of Block-52/72, J-15/16, J-20, J-10 etc etc will fall the same fate? These threads are a microcosm of the Pakistani psyche...a lot of talk, boasting, egos, and disconnect with reality, but that's why I love you guys

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## The Eagle

Sometimes, our friends here minds if something contrary to the wishes, is being told. So conclusively, we have a discussion with all the possibilities, facts, rumors and conspiracies but at least in one single thread. 

Everyone! @Imran Khan to be blamed. Throw him to the wolves.

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## The Eagle

The Raven said:


> So no Mirages from Egypt then?!  almost 50 pages and hundreds of posts later. Why do I get the feeling all the talk of Block-52/72, J-15/16, J-20, J-10 etc etc will fall the same fate? These threads are a microcosm of the Pakistani psyche...a lot of talk, boasting, egos, and disconnect with reality, but that's why I love you guys



On a serious note: Not everyone is an official or with insider source or some kind of links, therefore, such discussion is beauty of an open Forum that in the end makes it informative and authentic. Hadn't we discussed all the way beside input of everyone per their own observation, we would never get an answer or would never learnt anything. 

My previous post was on lighter mode.

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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> Sometimes, our friends here minds if something contrary to the wishes, is being told. So conclusively, we have a discussion with all the possibilities, facts, rumors and conspiracies but at least in one single thread.
> 
> Everyone! @Imran Khan to be blamed. Throw him to the wolves.


why do i blamed ? anyone going to buy medicine and stop at your door its not mean medicine is for you 
where they will land ? UAE not good too far . iran not good relations . india too near to china only place they can get support was pakistan . but as soon as someone land in pakistan we start cooking stories of imagination weapons delivery . 


The Eagle said:


> I tagged you for a reason and I knew you can do that but not like this. Dil tu kar raha ha k ban kar du.
> 
> That was a sarcastic serious. Ghalti hu gai.


many here want so say me something in urdu ? it will be 
*اگر میں اپنے جھوٹ کے ساتھ خوش ہوں تو پھر تم مجھ پر سچ مسلط کرنے والے ہوتے کون ہو۔*

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## air marshal

Two Egyptian C-130H landed today at OPRN (Dated: July 28, 2020)

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2882








https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2883







https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2888

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## Tamiyah

air marshal said:


> Two Egyptian C-130H landed today at OPRN (Dated: July 28, 2020)
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2882
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2883
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2888


Why don't they just send one AN225 once instead of dozens of C130s every week. BTW there is an imagination that maybe they deliver some thing here and go to China for buying medicine. This could be a possibility right?


----------



## The Eagle

air marshal said:


> Two Egyptian C-130H landed today at OPRN (Dated: July 28, 2020)
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2882
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2883
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-C-130H-Hercules/2888



@Imran Khan supposedly, they landed again.

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## Shabi1

A stop over visit in Pakistan on way to China is more plausible. Mirages if being delivered can not be via C-130, even if just parts, no such urgency. Since these are mothballed jets and unsafe to fly them to Pakistan.. Likely will come disassembled via sea and we will use them up for parts.


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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> @Imran Khan supposedly, they landed again.


tomorrow they will be in china . these guys did not on transponder 

see yesterday report of ADS-B they are no where

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## Gomig-21

Dil Pakistan said:


> How many to be cannibalized?



I'm not sure why any of them would be cannibalized, to be honest with you. Unless you folks are short of some major spare parts or something. But if the deal is for 36 of them and 23 of them (mostly SDEs) were part of the Horus upgrade in 2010 and have been kept in great condition with their dedicated bases out of Aswan and south of Egypt IIRC, often flying with the Hellenic AF as well as the Jordanian AF. The active jets were a mix of mostly 5SDD, 5E, 5SDE and the recon version in the 5DDR. Point is they were very well taken care of and we rarely saw any pictures of them unless someone else (other airforce personnel) took a picture of them such as this super rare photo of one of the 2-seaters I believe is the 5DD. They were VERY protective of them for some reason. This is during one of the exercises with the Jordanian AF and that 5DD is simply a beauty.






All the Horus upgrades made for some great Mirage 5 squadrons that were quite special in the EAF. I'm actually bummed out to see these retired or go to another AF. I suppose going to the PAF is better than retiring them but not for cannibalization! Ooof that would suck. But I suppose if you buy them and pay for them, you can do whatever you wish with them I just hope you make better use than taking them apart, especially when they're perfectly fine and well-functioning classic fighter jets.

Look at this stunning beauty!









These are the rare glimpses that would come out from army/air force news video clips and people would be forced to take stills from these videos because these birds were rarely allowed to be photographed, especially after the upgrade in 2010. We noticed these 4 SDDs flying in one of those video clips and it was barely a split second, we realized at the time that they had settled on this wildly crazy camo scheme and sure enough, someone took the still out of it and now it's on google images.






Then these 2 SDEs were part of Bright Star (not sure of the year) and they made a high speed fly-by, then turned and went high a couple miles away and fired guns or rockets on simulated ground targets. These were also pics taken by Americans who were present during the exercise.










Someone mentioned that the deal would not include weapons and I would question that. What would be the reason for us to keep any of the weapons? I don't think we would need them for our 2000s since they have their own packages, but I would think most of the basic weapons and MICA A2As would be part of the deal since they wouldn't be much use staying behind. Same with the drop tanks and any additional engines etc.






Either way, at least they're going to a respectable air force that we know will make the best out of them (I hope no cannibalization, though) and may they serve another 10 - 15 years in the PAF as well as bring our two countries more together.

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## Armchair

Micas are very expensive and could easily be used on M2Ks or Rafales. So I doubt they will go. Also, France may not wish to give PAF Micas for various political reasons. 

If they come with the Micas, would be a major boost for PAF, as they would instantly get 23 BVR platforms operational. Integrating SD-10 to RC-400 could be tricky but the Chinese have developed a special pylon that allows integration (supposedly). 




Gomig-21 said:


> I'm not sure why any of them would be cannibalized, to be honest with you. Unless you folks are short of some major spare parts or something. But if the deal is for 36 of them and 23 of them (mostly SDEs) were part of the Horus upgrade in 2010 and have been kept in great condition with their dedicated bases out of Aswan and south of Egypt IIRC, often flying with the Hellenic AF as well as the Jordanian AF. The active jets were a mix of mostly 5SDD, 5E, 5SDE and the recon version in the 5DDR. Point is they were very well taken care of and we rarely saw any pictures of them unless someone else (other airforce personnel) took a picture of them such as this super rare photo of one of the 2-seaters I believe is the 5DD. They were VERY protective of them for some reason. This is during one of the exercises with the Jordanian AF and that 5DD is simply a beauty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the Horus upgrades made for some great Mirage 5 squadrons that were quite special in the EAF. I'm actually bummed out to see these retired or go to another AF. I suppose going to the PAF is better than retiring them but not for cannibalization! Ooof that would suck. But I suppose if you buy them and pay for them, you can do whatever you wish with them I just hope you make better use than taking them apart, especially when they're perfectly fine and well-functioning classic fighter jets.
> 
> Look at this stunning beauty!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the rare glimpses that would come out from army/air force news video clips and people would be forced to take stills from these videos because these birds were rarely allowed to be photographed, especially after the upgrade in 2010. We noticed these 4 SDDs flying in one of those video clips and it was barely a split second, we realized at the time that they had settled on this wildly crazy camo scheme and sure enough, someone took the still out of it and now it's on google images.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then these 2 SDEs were part of Bright Star (not sure of the year) and they made a high speed fly-by, then turned and went high a couple miles away and fired guns or rockets on simulated ground targets. These were also pics taken by Americans who were present during the exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned that the deal would not include weapons and I would question that. What would be the reason for us to keep any of the weapons? I don't think we would need them for our 2000s since they have their own packages, but I would think most of the basic weapons and MICA A2As would be part of the deal since they wouldn't be much use staying behind. Same with the drop tanks and any additional engines etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, at least they're going to a respectable air force that we know will make the best out of them (I hope no cannibalization, though) and may they serve another 10 - 15 years in the PAF as well as bring our two countries more together.

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## mingle

Gomig-21 said:


> I'm not sure why any of them would be cannibalized, to be honest with you. Unless you folks are short of some major spare parts or something. But if the deal is for 36 of them and 23 of them (mostly SDEs) were part of the Horus upgrade in 2010 and have been kept in great condition with their dedicated bases out of Aswan and south of Egypt IIRC, often flying with the Hellenic AF as well as the Jordanian AF. The active jets were a mix of mostly 5SDD, 5E, 5SDE and the recon version in the 5DDR. Point is they were very well taken care of and we rarely saw any pictures of them unless someone else (other airforce personnel) took a picture of them such as this super rare photo of one of the 2-seaters I believe is the 5DD. They were VERY protective of them for some reason. This is during one of the exercises with the Jordanian AF and that 5DD is simply a beauty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the Horus upgrades made for some great Mirage 5 squadrons that were quite special in the EAF. I'm actually bummed out to see these retired or go to another AF. I suppose going to the PAF is better than retiring them but not for cannibalization! Ooof that would suck. But I suppose if you buy them and pay for them, you can do whatever you wish with them I just hope you make better use than taking them apart, especially when they're perfectly fine and well-functioning classic fighter jets.
> 
> Look at this stunning beauty!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the rare glimpses that would come out from army/air force news video clips and people would be forced to take stills from these videos because these birds were rarely allowed to be photographed, especially after the upgrade in 2010. We noticed these 4 SDDs flying in one of those video clips and it was barely a split second, we realized at the time that they had settled on this wildly crazy camo scheme and sure enough, someone took the still out of it and now it's on google images.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then these 2 SDEs were part of Bright Star (not sure of the year) and they made a high speed fly-by, then turned and went high a couple miles away and fired guns or rockets on simulated ground targets. These were also pics taken by Americans who were present during the exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned that the deal would not include weapons and I would question that. What would be the reason for us to keep any of the weapons? I don't think we would need them for our 2000s since they have their own packages, but I would think most of the basic weapons and MICA A2As would be part of the deal since they wouldn't be much use staying behind. Same with the drop tanks and any additional engines etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, at least they're going to a respectable air force that we know will make the best out of them (I hope no cannibalization, though) and may they serve another 10 - 15 years in the PAF as well as bring our two countries more together.


I think idea is raise one new Sqdn and replace non rose Sqdn if all 36 are great shape those replaces old Non Rose mirages of PAF can be used as spare parts Horus looks brand new place kept in mint condition

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## The Eagle

Gomig-21 said:


> I'm not sure why any of them would be cannibalized, to be honest with you. Unless you folks are short of some major spare parts or something. But if the deal is for 36 of them and 23 of them (mostly SDEs) were part of the Horus upgrade in 2010 and have been kept in great condition with their dedicated bases out of Aswan and south of Egypt IIRC, often flying with the Hellenic AF as well as the Jordanian AF. The active jets were a mix of mostly 5SDD, 5E, 5SDE and the recon version in the 5DDR. Point is they were very well taken care of and we rarely saw any pictures of them unless someone else (other airforce personnel) took a picture of them such as this super rare photo of one of the 2-seaters I believe is the 5DD. They were VERY protective of them for some reason. This is during one of the exercises with the Jordanian AF and that 5DD is simply a beauty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the Horus upgrades made for some great Mirage 5 squadrons that were quite special in the EAF. I'm actually bummed out to see these retired or go to another AF. I suppose going to the PAF is better than retiring them but not for cannibalization! Ooof that would suck. But I suppose if you buy them and pay for them, you can do whatever you wish with them I just hope you make better use than taking them apart, especially when they're perfectly fine and well-functioning classic fighter jets.
> 
> Look at this stunning beauty!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the rare glimpses that would come out from army/air force news video clips and people would be forced to take stills from these videos because these birds were rarely allowed to be photographed, especially after the upgrade in 2010. We noticed these 4 SDDs flying in one of those video clips and it was barely a split second, we realized at the time that they had settled on this wildly crazy camo scheme and sure enough, someone took the still out of it and now it's on google images.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then these 2 SDEs were part of Bright Star (not sure of the year) and they made a high speed fly-by, then turned and went high a couple miles away and fired guns or rockets on simulated ground targets. These were also pics taken by Americans who were present during the exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned that the deal would not include weapons and I would question that. What would be the reason for us to keep any of the weapons? I don't think we would need them for our 2000s since they have their own packages, but I would think most of the basic weapons and MICA A2As would be part of the deal since they wouldn't be much use staying behind. Same with the drop tanks and any additional engines etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, at least they're going to a respectable air force that we know will make the best out of them (I hope no cannibalization, though) and may they serve another 10 - 15 years in the PAF as well as bring our two countries more together.



In my opinion, the word "Cannibalization" is misused widely. Only non flyable will be used for parts and not all of them. Initial report suggested the deal for Mirage Vs. These birds will really support current fleet and add more punch.

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## jupiter2007

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Reading the posts of the senior members suggests ,the Horus are not here yet. But just for the fan boyz, a couple of Youtube channels were already breaking the news of the delivery of Horus a few days ago. Here are a few clips just for keeping the FANTASIES alive!*
> .......................................



Don't worry about Youtubers, next they will claim that America will provide F-35 to us.

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## denel

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Reading the posts of the senior members suggests ,the Horus are not here yet. But just for the fan boyz, a couple of Youtube channels were already breaking the news of the delivery of Horus a few days ago. Here are a few clips just to keep the FLAME alive!*
> .....................................................


Pal, please dont post b/s youtube videos. any idiot is now having a channel.

if NDTV and other channel diahorea was not enough, we have this to contend with.

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## The Eagle

Such fan made videos are not welcome here. Please keep it clean and when it is about to post a source, make sure that is credible enough to be treated as such.

Regards,

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## ARCH٤R

Is it confirmed that Pakistan has received Mirage Vs from Egypt?


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## AMRAAM

ARCH٤R said:


> Is it confirmed that Pakistan has received Mirage Vs from Egypt?
> View attachment 677465



PAF is lip tightened on any acquisition or induction.

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## I S I

ARCH٤R said:


> Is it confirmed that Pakistan has received Mirage Vs from Egypt?
> View attachment 677465


yes i have key laying around of 1 jet. just going on it to get some groceries & milk for home.

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## ARCH٤R

AMRAAM said:


> PAF is lip tightened on any acquisition or induction.


I spoke with an Ex-EAF technician who said he heard nothing about the deal. I personally think Egypt should modify them and develop avionics and tech to test on them but apparently the decision makers aren’t on the same frequency. I’ll keep checking.

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## Scorpiooo

Any update on this ? What happened


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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> Any update on this ? What happened


@Zarvan @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Raider 21 @Tps43 @TsAr @mingle

Maybe one of these gents could give an answer.

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## Zarvan

Blacklight said:


> @Zarvan @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Raider 21 @Tps43 @TsAr @mingle
> 
> Maybe one of these gents could give an answer.


Sir why are you putting onus on us. When you exactly know the answer and you want us to tell. I have no clue. Neither about these nor about new jets. But I am pretty sure you and @PanzerKiel know the answer. Sir you don't want to tell us at least don't taunt us.

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## mikkix

PAF new acquisition

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## SD 10

Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118492116638949378
> and this old tweet from Jan 2019
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090574808952332294
> Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mirage 5SDE* : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built
> *Mirage 5E2* : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built
> *Mirage 5SDR* : Export version of the Mirage 5R for Egypt; six built
> *Mirage 5SDD* : Two-seat trainer for Egypt; six built

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## Blacklight

Zarvan said:


> Sir why are you putting onus on us. When you exactly know the answer and you want us to tell. I have no clue. Neither about these nor about new jets. But I am pretty sure you and @PanzerKiel know the answer. Sir you don't want to tell us at least don't taunt us.


Dear Brother,

Humble Apologies. In no way was it a taunt, to you, or any of the other members I tagged. 

The policy is very simple, if said news has not been published by an official / semi-official source, I cannot comment. Hope you understand.

Best Regards

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## Gomig-21

I think the French are making this process difficult since they would need to approve the deal, even if Pakistan has a good relationship with France. Their problem would be making India upset and so are either telling both parties to wait, or have refused the deal to go through. I think it's terrible that once you purchase a weapon system like these fighters and they are over a certain amount of years old, the original manufacturer should have no say in the matter unless the acquiring country is an enemy, which Pakistan is most certainly not with the vast amount of Mirages you folks have.

I even made a recent comment on our EAF thread how much I despise the way the French do military business and we've spent over $12 billion with them from Rafales to Mistrals helicopter carriers & LHD to a VERY EXPENSIVE FREMM frigate and 4 Gowind corvettes that we decided to but 24 Rafales first (with an option for 12 more) to see how quick and efficiently the EAF would incorporate such an advanced, 2 engine fighter and turns out it was a super smooth incorporation and they loved them. Now the EAF wants the 12 more and France is making the option which is completely in Egypt's favor worst than pulling teeth. I don't know what the @#$$$%*(*^%Y is wrong with these darn Francois. An option given by a country needs to be honored immediately and the fact that they haven't and are playing games means they are not good to deal with and probably have something to do with this.

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## Sinnerman108

Correct, 
The french are in no mood to play ball. On the contrary the more they spoil the show the more money they are making. 
While having said that, you must also understand, any deal with the french always has plenty of corruption in it; from the first letter inked until the asset dies.

Thus, promote local industry, and be self reliant.



Gomig-21 said:


> I think the French are making this process difficult since they would need to approve the deal, even if Pakistan has a good relationship with France. Their problem would be making India upset and so are either telling both parties to wait, or have refused the deal to go through. I think it's terrible that once you purchase a weapon system like these fighters and they are over a certain amount of years old, the original manufacturer should have no say in the matter unless the acquiring country is an enemy, which Pakistan is most certainly not with the vast amount of Mirages you folks have.
> 
> I even made a recent comment on our EAF thread how much I despise the way the French do military business and we've spent over $12 billion with them from Rafales to Mistrals helicopter carriers & LHD to a VERY EXPENSIVE FREMM frigate and 4 Gowind corvettes that we decided to but 24 Rafales first (with an option for 12 more) to see how quick and efficiently the EAF would incorporate such an advanced, 2 engine fighter and turns out it was a super smooth incorporation and they loved them. Now the EAD wants the 12 more and it's worst than pulling teeth. I don't know what the @#$$$%*(*^%Y is wrong with these darn Francois. An option given by a country needs to be honored immediately and the fact that they haven't and are playing games means they are not good to deal with and probably have something to do with this.

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## ali_raza

i thought egyptian c130 were in pakistan alote of times

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## denel

Gomig-21 said:


> I think the French are making this process difficult since they would need to approve the deal, even if Pakistan has a good relationship with France. Their problem would be making India upset and so are either telling both parties to wait, or have refused the deal to go through. I think it's terrible that once you purchase a weapon system like these fighters and they are over a certain amount of years old, the original manufacturer should have no say in the matter unless the acquiring country is an enemy, which Pakistan is most certainly not with the vast amount of Mirages you folks have.
> 
> I even made a recent comment on our EAF thread how much I despise the way the French do military business and we've spent over $12 billion with them from Rafales to Mistrals helicopter carriers & LHD to a VERY EXPENSIVE FREMM frigate and 4 Gowind corvettes that we decided to but 24 Rafales first (with an option for 12 more) to see how quick and efficiently the EAF would incorporate such an advanced, 2 engine fighter and turns out it was a super smooth incorporation and they loved them. Now the EAD wants the 12 more and it's worst than pulling teeth. I don't know what the @#$$$%*(*^%Y is wrong with these darn Francois. An option given by a country needs to be honored immediately and the fact that they haven't and are playing games means they are not good to deal with and probably have something to do with this.


No - there is no reason from French to say anything on this.


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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> i thought egyptian c130 were in pakistan alote of times


Funny, it was like they were actually delivering something. Must have been the infamous khota biryani, nooras are so fond of, I guess.

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## Gomig-21

denel said:


> No - there is no reason from French to say anything on this.



Why not? Aside from any contractual clauses that might be part of the original purchase that prohibits Egypt to sell these aircraft to any country without the full approval of the French government and military, there are also other issues that complicate this deal from going through, one being the India/France Rafale deal that was such a struggle and a delicate balance that France would never want to upset, but that is secondary to not only the contractual clauses, but the primary reason would be that Egypt is currently France's #1 customer for military purchases, and I'm not just talking about the things we already bought like the 24 Rafales, 2 mistrals, the FREMM, the 4 Gowind Corvettes and more, but current major negotiations for a large amount of Scorpene deep sea submarine that our Jewish cousins are vehemently opposing. 

Think about it for even a second: You are the US or the UK and you sell 80 of your best aircraft (at the time, the Mirage V was the best thing going with Dassault), the contract would undoubtedly include a clause that these jets can never be sold to a 3rd party without the express, written consent of the original seller which happens to be Dassault and France in this case.

There are even clauses in some contracts that will make your head spin. For example, just a couple of months ago I read about the Saudi purchase of the Boeing KC-707/KE-3A refueling tankers from the US to Saudi Arabia and the clause is that they can only fly and perform air to air refueling activities within the Arabian Peninsula only! And when they have to travel far enough for an exercise with another country where they would need to refuel in the air, they need to sign contracts prior to use NATO or US tankers that would be in the area. So not only are there clauses for never selling to 3rd parties without full consent and permission, but there are tons of usages clauses too. You know about that being in the SA military yourself.

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## GriffinsRule

There is no "approval" required from the French for 50yr old Mirages. Mostly likely EAF still need to fly them as they have not yet taken delivery of all the Rafales and Migs and Sukhois they ordered I believe. Besides, these jets with long usage already are only worth as spare sources for PAF.
Clauses you mention are all recent and mostly something americans started doing. There jets are from the 60-70s. Even if there is a clause like that, it will be useless. What will french do, stop support if Mirage 3/5s for Egypt when they are getting rid of them anyways. Sounds like an excuse

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## Gomig-21

GriffinsRule said:


> There is no "approval" required from the French for 50yr old Mirages. Mostly likely EAF still need to fly them as they have not yet taken delivery of all the Rafales and Migs and Sukhois they ordered I believe. Besides, these jets with long usage already are only worth as spare sources for PAF.
> Clauses you mention are all recent and mostly something americans started doing. There jets are from the 60-70s. Even if there is a clause like that, it will be useless. What will french do, stop support if Mirage 3/5s for Egypt when they are getting rid of them anyways. Sounds like an excuse



We'll have to agree to disagree. This has been going on since post WWII. Remember the Brits were the first to see Russia as a potential enemy which triggered the cold war. Then after that is was who will be part of what alliance and Egypt chose Russia for the most part and I was young at the time but was reading the newspapers and I read a lot of that stuff. I'm too pooped (tiered) to find old information like that but I vividly remember the US making conditions and clauses on the first batch of F-16s we got and you should have seen what Sadat went through with the French to sign a purchase contract for the 1st ever batch of 20 Mirage 2000's. Just in your opinion, what do you suppose the French wrote for clauses on that particular contract in 1982?

This is not something new, this is something that was created post WWII and the invent of powerful jet engine aircraft and ships and tanks & ships etc. It was not only the transfer of technology that was disallowed, but the eventual sale for the life of the aircraft.

Here's an easy question that would answer that point - at the time, would France have agreed that Egypt, at any point of the Mirage existence within its fleet be sold to say....Syria? Of course not. This kind of thing was happening a long time ago and maybe that is not the issue and in fact France agreed because Pakistan has a huge fleet of Mirages and if I'm not mistaken, they had the Rose upgrade done recently but it is a formality.

You ask what the French will do? They will easily do one of several things. Hold off any of the ongoing deals being made for the 11-12 deep sea Scorpene submarines for Egypt or cancel any further sale of Rafales and file a complaint in the international court and essentially ruin the Egy/Franco relationship which honestly, I wouldn't mind since the German mega deal is so much more enticing for me.

Maybe this weekend when I get a moment where I feel like looking this up, I'll post it. It's tough, though, finding info on contracts signed in the early 80's I believe when the first Mirage's were bought. How these would compliment...







...these would be great. But once you own them which I truly hope happens, the upgraded once can be out into active service in short time. You wanna canibalise them for spare parts, they'll be all yours eventually and you could do whatever you want with them,

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## GriffinsRule

Again, clauses for first jets with FBW in the 80s with new technology of the time is not the same as the era these jets belong to.

PS Do you have PAF had issues getting Mirages from Libya, Lebanon, Spain, and Australia etc before? If there is a holdup it with the EAF not France. After all, we are buying helos from there right now.

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## Gomig-21

GriffinsRule said:


> Again, clauses for first jets with FBW in the 80s with new technology of the time is not the same as the era these jets belong to.
> 
> PS Do you have PAF had issues getting Mirages from Libya, Lebanon, Spain, and Australia etc before? If there is a holdup it with the EAF not France. After all, we are buying helos from there right now.



Of course the hold up is from Egypt, it's always pour fault because if Pakistan wants to canibalize some of these aircraft then they probably want to buy them for $10 a piece and please tell me who would ever agree to that? Not saying that is what is goin on, but since you claimed the process is most likely halted by Egypt without really offering a decent reason, I gave you a possibility because that is all I can at this moment.

These contracts have nothing to do with the advent of FBW systems not sure where and why you brought that up. I already mentioned that these were items decided immediately post WWII which was roughly 3 decades prior to the advent of the FBW system. And remind me again why we're talking about the FBW system? Don't forget that these were very sensitive times since they were only a short while after a rather strange peace process with a war that killed a lot of people whom France had already supplied the V under the pretense that they were called Neshers just to avoid the self imposed embargo. So after the war when the EAF realized how awesome those aircraft are, you can bet yours and my house that they installed that clause and then some because almost every Arab/Muslim country reviled us for making peace with Israel. So the French were super protective of selling mirages to Egypt. You believe what you want. Perfectly fine by me.

Oh one more thing that created a lot of these contracts and regulations was when Stalin requested a RolceRoyce engine from Britain to help Russia produce better jet engines, they practically gave it to them signed on a napkin and they've regretted it ever since then and now their sales contracts are probably 300 pages long with all sorts of clauses. Also, when Libya offered some of its Mirages to Egypt to help in the war against Israel, it was in violation of the French treaty it signed and it took a lot of diplomatic work to resolve that. I'll leave it at that.


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## Cookie Monster

mikkix said:


> PAF new acquisition
> View attachment 738636


Look at that nose cone...it's like 1/3rd the size of the whole thing...I wonder how many transceivers that AESA has 🤔

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## denel

Gomig-21 said:


> Why not? Aside from any contractual clauses that might be part of the original purchase that prohibits Egypt to sell these aircraft to any country without the full approval of the French government and military, there are also other issues that complicate this deal from going through, one being the India/France Rafale deal that was such a struggle and a delicate balance that France would never want to upset, but that is secondary to not only the contractual clauses, but the primary reason would be that Egypt is currently France's #1 customer for military purchases, and I'm not just talking about the things we already bought like the 24 Rafales, 2 mistrals, the FREMM, the 4 Gowind Corvettes and more, but current major negotiations for a large amount of Scorpene deep sea submarine that our Jewish cousins are vehemently opposing.
> 
> Think about it for even a second: You are the US or the UK and you sell 80 of your best aircraft (at the time, the Mirage V was the best thing going with Dassault), the contract would undoubtedly include a clause that these jets can never be sold to a 3rd party without the express, written consent of the original seller which happens to be Dassault and France in this case.
> 
> There are even clauses in some contracts that will make your head spin. For example, just a couple of months ago I read about the Saudi purchase of the Boeing KC-707/KE-3A refueling tankers from the US to Saudi Arabia and the clause is that they can only fly and perform air to air refueling activities within the Arabian Peninsula only! And when they have to travel far enough for an exercise with another country where they would need to refuel in the air, they need to sign contracts prior to use NATO or US tankers that would be in the area. So not only are there clauses for never selling to 3rd parties without full consent and permission, but there are tons of usages clauses too. You know about that being in the SA military yourself.


Sorry, but no - it may be used an excuse in this case but it is not reality with such an old unit. If such signoff were required, why did Pak managed to get a huge collection of M3/5. Then why did Atlas completely gut the entire fleet into Cheetahs or further sell off the Cheetahs to various South American countries.

I do believe these were held either by pressure from master bone sawer or probably to get more money.


GriffinsRule said:


> There is no "approval" required from the French for 50yr old Mirages. Mostly likely EAF still need to fly them as they have not yet taken delivery of all the Rafales and Migs and Sukhois they ordered I believe. Besides, these jets with long usage already are only worth as spare sources for PAF.
> Clauses you mention are all recent and mostly something americans started doing. There jets are from the 60-70s. Even if there is a clause like that, it will be useless. What will french do, stop support if Mirage 3/5s for Egypt when they are getting rid of them anyways. Sounds like an excuse


It is.

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## Scorpiooo

ali_raza said:


> i thought egyptian c130 were in pakistan alote of times


This on serious note, what were those Egyptians C130s were delivering form back to back visits in pakistan.. point to think ... what was the cargo if not Horus mirages


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## denel

Scorpiooo said:


> This on serious note, what were those Egyptians C130s were delivering form back to back visits in pakistan.. point to think ... what was the cargo if not Horus mirages


Just check flightaware statuses - they could just be on the way to China too.


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## Scorpiooo

denel said:


> Just check flightaware statuses - they could just be on the way to China too.


May be, but do they have any defense equipment deliveries at that time from china to Egypt

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## denel

Scorpiooo said:


> May be, but do they have any defense equipment deliveries at that time from china to Egypt


no idea friend. It could be anything from covid related supplies too.

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## BATMAN

denel said:


> No - there is no reason from French to say anything on this.



Lately, French are told by their own govt. to leave Pakistan... perhaps you were not aware!

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## Tomcats

Scorpiooo said:


> This on serious note, what were those Egyptians C130s were delivering form back to back visits in pakistan.. point to think ... what was the cargo if not Horus mirages


If you're talking about 2020, then they were most likely COVID related supplies, Egypt was transporting a lot of COVID aid globally at that time.

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## denel

BATMAN said:


> Lately, French are told by their own govt. to leave Pakistan... perhaps you were not aware!


I am aware; but it has no bearing on the M3/5.


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## BATMAN

denel said:


> I am aware; but it has no bearing on the M3/5.



That would be funny if it has no bearing.... specially considering Imran Khan has publicly and furiously demanded OIC states, to do more than boycott of commercial product coming from EU!

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## denel

BATMAN said:


> That would be funny if it has no bearing.... specially considering Imran Khan has publicly and furiously demanded OIC states, to do more than boycott of commercial product coming from EU!


trust me, the french will sell anything no matter what.

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## White and Green with M/S

BATMAN said:


> That would be funny if it has no bearing.... specially considering Imran Khan has publicly and furiously demanded OIC states, to do more than boycott of commercial product coming from EU!


Hi troll how are you? stick to the topic


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## BATMAN

denel said:


> trust me, the french will sell anything no matter what.



In that case, Pakistan is a lucky B.


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## White and Green with M/S

BATMAN said:


> In that case, Pakistan is a lucky B.


Stick to the topic


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## Gomig-21

denel said:


> Sorry, but no - it may be used an excuse in this case but it is not reality with such an old unit. If such signoff were required, why did Pak managed to get a huge collection of M3/5. Then why did Atlas completely gut the entire fleet into Cheetahs or further sell off the Cheetahs to various South American countries.



Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Cheetahs fleet. But every deal is not the same. You can never make that comparison. You also have to be familiar with the history at the time they were bought and how we were somewhat in a state of war with Israel and the Israelis has the V which they called the Nesher for obvious reasons I already mentioned, and you need to be specifically familiar with what is currently happening between France and Egypt and the additional Rafale deals as well as all the deep sea submarines they're negotiating. Negotiations are about having the upper hand and there is no doubt that they brought out that clause or whatever you want to call it that those aircraft cannot be sold to other countries without France's permission. You also have India. 

This is France leveraging Egypt and not Pakistan. I hope you folks understand that. The French contracts are crazy. If you think it's an excuse, then what is that excuse, money? Where's the source for that. If it wasn't for the permission clause, all those modernized Vs would've been on their way to France. The Pakistani CoS was in Egypt several times and we're eager to develop a good relationship with Egypt but there are unfortunate constraints. I know your biased opinion of Egypt so I will be truthful with you, it is very difficult discussing anything related to Egypt because of your extreme hatred of the country. 

I bet you if the actually end up making the deal work, you'll bring out some other stuff about how bad condition they're in and work your bias because nothing will ever convince you. You can believe whatever you like. Cheers.



denel said:


> I do believe these were held either by pressure from master bone sawer or probably to get more money.



LOL! Boy you really dislike Arabs in general. That was funny, though. "pressure from the bone sawer" LMAO'.



GriffinsRule said:


> PS Do you have PAF had issues getting Mirages from Libya, Lebanon, Spain, and Australia etc before? If there is a holdup it with the EAF not France. After all, we are buying helos from there right now.



Why would it be out of the realm of possibility that the clause, if there were any written in them for those countries you mentioned actually approved by France? They didn't want Libya to have them when they were planning on bombing the crap out of that poor country at some point, right? Why not get the Lebanese ones as far away from Israel to weaken them even more for their Zionist friends? Australia, completely irrelevant in my opinion. Just having a disagreement discussion with you and I realize your intellectual position is much higher than many here, so it's good to have this conversation. Hopefully the truth comes out and If I as in the wrong, trust me, you won't get more of an admission on being incorrect from this man.


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## GriffinsRule

Gomig-21 said:


> Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Cheetahs fleet. But every deal is not the same. You can never make that comparison. You also have to be familiar with the history at the time they were bought and how we were somewhat in a state of war with Israel and the Israelis has the V which they called the Nesher for obvious reasons I already mentioned, and you need to be specifically familiar with what is currently happening between France and Egypt and the additional Rafale deals as well as all the deep sea submarines they're negotiating. Negotiations are about having the upper hand and there is no doubt that they brought out that clause or whatever you want to call it that those aircraft cannot be sold to other countries without France's permission. You also have India.
> 
> This is France leveraging Egypt and not Pakistan. I hope you folks understand that. The French contracts are crazy. If you think it's an excuse, then what is that excuse, money? Where's the source for that. If it wasn't for the permission clause, all those modernized Vs would've been on their way to France. The Pakistani CoS was in Egypt several times and we're eager to develop a good relationship with Egypt but there are unfortunate constraints. I know your biased opinion of Egypt so I will be truthful with you, it is very difficult discussing anything related to Egypt because of your extreme hatred of the country.
> 
> I bet you if the actually end up making the deal work, you'll bring out some other stuff about how bad condition they're in and work your bias because nothing will ever convince you. You can believe whatever you like. Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! Boy you really dislike Arabs in general. That was funny, though. "pressure from the bone sawer" LMAO'.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it be out of the realm of possibility that the clause, if there were any written in them for those countries you mentioned actually approved by France? They didn't want Libya to have them when they were planning on bombing the crap out of that poor country at some point, right? Why not get the Lebanese ones as far away from Israel to weaken them even more for their Zionist friends? Australia, completely irrelevant in my opinion. Just having a disagreement discussion with you and I realize your intellectual position is much higher than many here, so it's good to have this conversation. Hopefully the truth comes out and If I as in the wrong, trust me, you won't get more of an admission on being incorrect from this man.


Yes indeed it is just a difference on opinion and nothing personal 🙂. 
I am just unable to see a reason why France would object necessarily for the sale given how old these jets are since they are all about business. Saying no to Egypt could backfire for them given how much stuff Egypt buys and might impact future deals that could go to other countries. 
The reason I think the hold up is EAF because they are still in service and not yet retired from active duty. It means their replacement has not yet arrived in squadron service.


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## sneakerspark

Let's just say 'so called muslim country' give a damn about brotherhood and are more prone to scumming to $$$


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## Gomig-21

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes indeed it is just a difference on opinion and nothing personal 🙂.
> I am just unable to see a reason why France would object necessarily for the sale given how old these jets are since they are all about business. Saying no to Egypt could backfire for them given how much stuff Egypt buys and might impact future deals that could go to other countries.
> The reason I think the hold up is EAF because they are still in service and not yet retired from active duty. It means their replacement has not yet arrived in squadron service.



Well they just closed the deal today and the singing for 30 more Rafales and a munition package to accompany them will be announced in the next few days. So if after that, the Mirage Vs start arriving in Egypt them I'll say you're more likely right. But if it doesn't go through, then there was most certainly a cause that India has a large part to do with it.

BTW, none of the Mirage Vs have been seen at their bases, or on satellite or flying in any occasion and there has been a lot of that going on. They have been put away and just the Mirage 2000s are active. As a matter of fact, they conducted a major bombing raid in north Sinai that flattened out many cretin and rodent huts. Why would they be using only the small amount of 2000's and no V's? Because they've been put in storage. Hey, it could also be that we are just as good financial negotiators as you, creating a financial bogg-down.


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## Incog_nito

As Egypt has ordered additional 30 Rafaels from France. Will they be looking to replace the Mirage-2000s and who will buy those?


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## maverick1977

Why do i have a feeling that JF17s wont be sold to Egypt, all these new weapons are most likely free in an effort to stop JF17s to be bought by Egypt.


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## Scorpiooo

Incog_nito said:


> As Egypt has ordered additional 30 Rafaels from France. Will they be looking to replace the Mirage-2000s and who will buy those?


Possibly india

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## Gomig-21

Incog_nito said:


> As Egypt has ordered additional 30 Rafaels from France. Will they be looking to replace the Mirage-2000s and who will buy those?



If anything, I think this order will help replace more of the Mirage Vs and maybe now they can start this deal with Pakistan? Let's hope that happens.

As far as the 2000s, to be perfectly honest with you, it's impossible that if they bought 20 of them back in 1986 or somewhere around then, that by now they still have that same number. I would think that due to possible accidents, attrition rate whatever for so many decades that I would be surprised if the number is anywhere close to 15. And how many of those 15 are active and flyable is unknown. I think 4 of the 20 were 2-seat trainers and because of that, those are the ones that usually have unfortunate mishaps. I think the number might even be lower than 15. Not sure they'll sell them unless they replace them with the Typhoons, if they do get them. So many unknowns.

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## Ali_Baba

Please - Mirage 2000 have NO future in PAF service, - esp after Feb 2019 when they got jammed to hell and back by JF17s in the face off over Kashmir.

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## Scorpiooo

Ali_Baba said:


> Please - Mirage 2000 have NO future in PAF service, - esp after Feb 2019 when they got jammed to hell and back by JF17s in the face off over Kashmir.


PAF will not got Mirage 2000 as they are entirely different jet then Mirage 3 and 5. 
They why to invest in entirely different and old framework.

Second PAF knows very well France will not support due to Rafale deal with India

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## denel

Scorpiooo said:


> PAF will not got Mirage 2000 as they are entirely different jet then Mirage 3 and 5.
> They why to invest in entirely different and old framework.
> 
> Second PAF knows very well France will not support due to Rafale deal with India


Forget M2K; French will not compromise any thing from the big 'bugs' coming via India.

Time for M2k was long gone.

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## Scorpiooo

maverick1977 said:


> Why do i have a feeling that JF17s wont be sold to Egypt, all these new weapons are most likely free in an effort to stop JF17s to be bought by Egypt.


Right now stuff and jet .. Egyptians are purchasing... JFT price tsg will be candy for them.

But on serious note. Apparently Thanders position seems very strange with Egyptians air force because jet fighter they have and going to induct.

So only place Thanders can create is to increase numbers or brave as advance trainer


denel said:


> Forget M2K; French will not compromise any thing from the big 'bugs' coming via India.
> 
> Time for M2k was long gone.


Agree, totally


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## denel

Scorpiooo said:


> Right now stuff and jet .. Egyptians are purchasing... JFT price tsg will be candy for them.
> 
> But on serious note. Apparently Thanders position seems very strange with Egyptians air force because jet fighter they have and going to induct.
> 
> So only place Thanders can create is to increase numbers or brave as advance trainer
> 
> Agree, totally


Remember they still have a huge inventory of lower tier jets that need to be replaced.

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## Scorpiooo

denel said:


> Remember they still have a huge inventory of lower tier jets that need to be replaced.


Means to fill out number of lower end jet by replacing them ..

Thanders cost we be peanuts for them the way they are purchasing higerend expensive stuff .. like window shoping

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## denel

Scorpiooo said:


> Means to fill out number of lower end jet by replacing them ..
> 
> Thanders cost we be peanuts for them the way they are purchasing higerend expensive stuff .. like window shoping


Let us see but it all depends on what is the strategic goal post in the end. When they took on the K-8; was anything added to PAC? I dont know - if I recall they were assembling them with as knock down kits


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## Scorpiooo

denel said:


> Let us see but it all depends on what is the strategic goal post in the end. When they took on the K-8; was anything added to PAC? I dont know - if I recall they were assembling them with as knock down kits


Thander case PAC has 52 % share

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> Let us see but it all depends on what is the strategic goal post in the end. When they took on the K-8; was anything added to PAC? I dont know - if I recall they were assembling them with as knock down kits



Per hisotry book pac had some component 18% only achieved against 25% target due to paf taking forever to order all 75ish or so but did not had a contract to supply to Chinese k8 nor foreign orders only paf orders unless things changed since last official history 
Pac did get their share profit from all orders but work share agreement was not part of contract which was a lesson learned and addressed in later contact for work share for jf-17 now jf-17 exclusive rights to 52% and can go to 100% per contract after 150 jf provided its cost effective

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## Incog_nito

Scorpiooo said:


> Possibly india



I have heard the same, even for UAE and Qatar. India (IAF) has adopted the Mirage-2000s for Strike roles really well.


Scorpiooo said:


> PAF will not got Mirage 2000 as they are entirely different jet then Mirage 3 and 5.
> They why to invest in entirely different and old framework.
> 
> Second PAF knows very well France will not support due to Rafale deal with India



I think PAF is keen in replacing their Mirages with something new from China. Mirages are strike platforms and PAF might get some strike aircraft like Chinese new Bombers to replace them.

250+ JF-17
100+ F-16s
50-100+ European Fighter might be the near future fleet.


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## Deltadart

Incog_nito said:


> I have heard the same, even for UAE and Qatar. India (IAF) has adopted the Mirage-2000s for Strike roles really well.
> 
> 
> I think PAF is keen in replacing their Mirages with something new from China. Mirages are strike platforms and PAF might get some strike aircraft like Chinese new Bombers to replace them.
> 
> 250+ JF-17
> 100+ F-16s
> 50-100+ European Fighter might be the near future fleet.


Realistically, We can have 250 or more jf17s, but acquiring more new or refurbished F16s is mere wishful thinking. As far as Europe goes, we don't have the funds, nor the diplomatic clout to procure the eurofighter easily.

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## Incog_nito

Deltadart said:


> Realistically, We can have 250 or more jf17s, but acquiring more new or refurbished F16s is mere wishful thinking. As far as Europe goes, we don't have the funds, nor the diplomatic clout to procure the eurofighter easily.


But PAF still interested in F-16s.


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## Thorough Pro

do you spell it "Thander" on purpose or are you as dumb as an indian?




Scorpiooo said:


> Thander case PAC has 52 % share


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