# The atrocities in the 1971 civil war



## Rasel

*MOD EDIT:* Much of the world only knows the one-sided history of the events of 1971, that the Pakistan Army carried out a genocide and killed '3 million people', and exaggeration admitted by Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Indian scholars at a conference held by the State Department over declassified documents from the 1971 war: http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/07/nat3.htm

Here are some accounts of the atrocities committed by the Bengali population of East Pakistan upon non-Bengalis BEFORE Operation Searchlight began on the 25th of March:

_ Rummel's Death by Government._

Here is an excerpt:


> _
> "Throughout East Pakistan, non-Bengali communities were assaulted, their members mutilated, tortured and butchered. Let the words of Anthony Mascarenhas, whose vigorous condemnation of the Pakistan democide in East Pakistan established his credentials, speak to this:
> 
> 'Thousands of families of unfortunate Muslims, many of them refugees from Bihar who chose Pakistan at the time of the partition riots in 1947, were mercilessly wiped out. Women were raped, or had their breasts torn out with specially fashioned knives. Children did not escape the horror: the lucky ones were killed with their parents; but many thousands of others must go through what life remains for them with eyes gouged out and limbs amputated. More than 20,000 bodies of non-Bengalis have been found in the main towns, such as Chittagong, Khulna and Jessore. The real toll, I was told everywhere in East Bengal, may have been as high as 100,000, for thousands of non-Bengalis have vanished without a trace. The Government of Pakistan has let the world know about that first horror. What it has suppressed is the second and worse horror which followed when its own army took over the killing. West Pakistan officials privately calculate that altogether both sides have killed 250,000 people.'"_



And a first hand account of events by an American engineer working in East Pakistan:



> _A description of the indiscriminate killing during this period has been given by an American engineer who was working on a construction project at Kaptai, near Chittagong. We have quoted from it at length as it gives a vivid picture of the terror which reigned and of the blind hatred which motivated the killings on both sides:
> 
> Shortly after March 1, we received word from some British friends in Chittagong that Bengali mobs had begun looting and burning the homes and businesses of the West Pakistani residents and were beating, and in some cases killing, West Pakistanis as well as Hindus.
> 
> On the night of March 9, my expatriate staff and I decided to depart Kaptai. As we passed through Chittagong we noted three of four fires. A service station attendant told my driver these were homes and businesses of 'Biharis'.
> 
> We returned to Kaptai on March 23. There was a small Army garrison stationed at Kaptai. They were a part of the East African Rifles which was a regiment of Bengalis with mostly Punjabi officers and N.C.O.'s. The garrison was quartered in an old school building about 400 yards from our residences.
> 
> On the morning of March 26 around 9 a.m. we heard shooting coming from the school. I went to investigate and found a large crowd gathered there. Some of the crowd was shooting toward one of the upstairs school rooms. I was told that the previous night all Punjabis in the Army garrison (about 26 or 27) had been arrested and locked in the school-room. Now someone in the crowd was claiming that shots had come from the room. After removing a sheet of roofing several men with guns gathered around the opening and began firing into the room. After a few minutes they came down and began dispersing the crowd. I later learned that the commanding officer, who was under house arrest within sight of the school, was slowly beaten and bayoneted to death as his staff was being shot. The officer's wife, in a state of terror, asked the mob to kill her too. She was beaten to death. Their small son was spared and taken in by a Bengali family.
> 
> I met immediately with the local Awami League leader and the Power Station Manager, a Bengali named Shamsuddin. The Awami League leader said the people had been told to remain peaceful and that he had peace patrols roaming the area, but that he could not control the large mobs. Shamsuddin told me that the mobs had killed many Biharis the night before and thrown their bodies over the spillway of the dam. He said he just managed to talk the mob out of taking his three West Pakistani engineers but felt they were still in great danger .
> 
> All India radio began an almost continuous propaganda barrage of East Pakistan. This inflammatory propaganda roused the mobs in Kaptai to new frenzies. After all known Biharis, including at least two of our employees, had been killed, a search was begun for 'imposters'. On about the third day of the trouble we saw two Bengali soldiers marching away a servant who worked in the housing area. A few seconds later we heard a shot and ran out into the road. The servant had fallen partway down a ravine. A crowd quickly gathered and, when it became apparent the servant was still alive, dragged him up onto the road. One of the soldiers motioned the crowd away, knelt and very deliberately fired another bullet into the body. After a short while the death-Iimp body was dragged and rolled into the back of a pickup and hauled away. It had been found out that although the servant had been living in Kaptai over 20 years, he was born in India. By this time the mobs were killing anyone not a 'son-of-the-soil'.
> 
> Friends and acquaintances in Chittagong said that on the night of March 25 Bengali mobs descended on the homes of all known Biharis and especially those military personnel living outside their cantonment. The mobs slaughtered entire families and I heard many horrible descriptions of this massacre. The mutinous East Pakistan Rifles along with irregulars
> 
> laid siege to the Chittagong military cantonment. After seven or eight days the siege was broken by a relief detachment which had force-marched from the cantonment at Camilla. I am told that when the entrapped garrison broke out it was with a terrible vengeance. The slightest resistance was cause for annihilation of everyone in a particular area. For instance, the Army made a habit of destroying, by tank cannon, everything within a wide radius of hostile roadblocks. I saw the remains of a completely razed three to four square block area of Chittagong near the entrance to the port area. I was told that after encountering resistance here the Army encircled and set fire to the entire area and shot all who fled. Hundreds of men, women and children were said to have perished here.
> 
> When the East Pakistan Rifles and Bengali irregulars began retreating from the fighting around Chittagong, many of them passed through Kaptai en route to Rangamati and the Indian border areas. These renegades began looting their fellow Bengalis as they came through Kaptai. They also began to murder the surviving wives and children of previously killed Biharis. They demanded and took food, clothing and other supplies from the local residents. By April 10, everyone in Kaptai, including myself had become terrified of these deserters. Mr. Shamsuddin suggested, and I agreed, that he and several members of his staff, along with families, move into the houses around my residence.
> 
> After great pressure from implied threats, Shamsuddin had finally banded his three West Pakistani engineers over to a mob after he was told they would not be harmed, only held in jail at Rangamati. Shamsuddin agreed to hand over the engineers provided two Bengali members of his staff be allowed to accompany the engineers on their trip to the jail. This was agreed and they were taken away. Everyone felt certain these men would be killed but they were spared. When I last heard of them they were safe with their families in Dacca. Shamsuddin, although a Bengali, attempted on several occasions, at great risk to himself and his family, to stop the killings by the mobs but with little success. Also he saw to it that the existing generating units remained in operation throughout the trouble.
> 
> An Army unit arrived in Kaptai on the morning of April 14. Except for those in our area Kaptai and surroundings were completely deserted. The unit consisted of a tank, two jeeps, a half-track and about 250 infantry. As they approached the tank fired blanks from its cannon and the soldiers fired intermittent bursts from their weapons. The object seemed to be to cower the inhabitants with the noise. The army immediately began burning the shanties ('bustees') in which most of the people had lived. The bazaar and a few permanent type dwellings were also burned.
> 
> While his troops were searching the area, the commanding officer and his staff took tea in our residence. They congratulated and warmly praised Shamsuddin and his staff for their attempts to maintain order and for keeping the generating units in operation. The C.O. said that the Army's objective was to restore normality as quickly as possible. One of the officers told of a terrible scene they had come upon in a town about 10 miles from Kaptai called Chandagborna. About 40 to 50 women and children -survivors of previously killed Biharis - had been taken into a loft building where they had been hacked, stabbed and beaten to death. He said this grizzIy scene had driven the troops to an almost incontrollable rage and he said it was fortunate that Kaptai was deserted except for us.
> 
> [Mr. Shamsuddin was later taken from the house by two Pakistan soldiers.] We ran after them. They were taken behind the fire station which was about 250 yards away. Just as we arrived at the station we heard two shots. Shamsuddin and another man lay dead on the grass, each with a bullet through his chest.
> 
> The officer-in-charge appeared and questioned the soldier who had done the killing. We later found this man was a Major. After questioning by the O.I.C. the Major's weapon was taken and the Major was ordered immediately to Chittagong. The O.I.C. told us the whole thing was a tragic mistake. Later I was told what had happened. While directing the search of the area the Major and his driver came upon a woman with a small child who told that her husband and son had been killed by the Bengalis. She charged that Shamsuddin was the leader of the mobs and instigator of the atrocities. The women was taken to the fire station and the Major and his aide set off to find Shamsuddin. When Shamsuddin was brought before the woman she immediately identified him and the Major instantly carried out the executions. The man who died with Shamsuddin had also been accused by the woman, who was crazed by fear and grief._'



===================== *End Mod Edit*

*It was the Indian Army people who raped a lot of the Bangladeshi Women's. But many of course blamed the Muslim Pakistani Army. 

1. Indian Army Men used to change the Pak Army Uniforms and put it on there bodies to make Bengalis fool in there eyes they knew who they where. But in the Bengali eyes they where Pakistani Muslims.

2. Many Bengalis came in that trick of the Indian Policy.

3. Bangladeshis never had a significant proof of that Yahya Khan ever said to kill ''threee million bengalis'' the only truth is that there are some fake links on internet sites which are mostly based against Pakistani Army! And there some books where they say three million Bengalis where Genocied and a lot of raped to. But the Americans are confused wether it's 1 or 3 million who got raped by Indian Army.*

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Rasel

*MOD EDIT: The following post is being copied here from another thread, and was created by lonelyone:*

The link to that post and thread are: 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...stani-brutality-wait-its-not.html#post2077803

*Please go to the above link and thank the original poster if you like the following post*

====================
You would think that 40 years after '71 everything there is to be known is known, and that there is no more to uncover. The following picture must be very familiar to all Bangladeshis. It shows a Pakistani soldier checking in the lungi of a man to see whether he is Hindu or Muslim, and if he is Hindu, he will probably be taken away to be killed.



Its a very common image, and is burned into the minds of Bangladeshis as an example of typical Pakistani/Islamic brutality, intolerance and backwardness.

However, the fact is that the picture ISN'T of a Pakistani soldier at all, but an Indian soldier "checking for weapons". The picture is from a book by an Indian photographer called Kishor Parekh, called "Bangladesh- A Brutal Birth"

Kishor Parekh






Now here is the original, undedited photo.

Caption in the book -- "Indian Troops Grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies they peer into Lungi in search of weapons."

And, here is another photo of the same scene.

Caption - "...Indian troops grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies...The Jawans (soldiers) I was travelling with weren't too gentle: they had suffered casualties..."- Kishor Parekh, Bangladesh War 1971.



Sources: 1. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)
2. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Rasel

*5. Many Bengalis did blamed that it was the Pakistani Muslims who genocided and raped a lot of the bengalis. But could they ever prove about that it was the Pakistani Muslims who actually did so??? *

*I would love to show the sites but many say that the PakBD Liberation War was ''Covert Operation'' and it was done by the Indian RAW. And there is a site called [url The URL won't show upHistory can sometimes lie and deny about the secret facts. Everything is just going against one Nation and one group of people in the 1971 History of Bangladesh.

As i mentioned the BanglaPak Liberation War was a Covert Operation. *

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Rasel

*In 2009 many Bangladeshi people will blame the Pakistani Army because of the false and misunderstood history. But past is past 1971 can't be related with 2009 Pakistanis have said sorry to Bangladeshis when it wasn't even Pakistani Army Muslim fault the same way can Pakistanis do ask the Bengali brothers can you people prove us where Pakistani Muslim Army people raped the women's of Bangladesh or did genocide i admit there was some of accident of Pakistani Army but not a lot. Bangladesh big mistake was to work together with India Army espcially when they came to Bangladesh to fight the Pakistani Army. And Bangladeshis took the Indian site before the Indian Armies even where in BD then there where never seen such a brutal genocides which where done on 1971. Why did everything changed when the Indian Army came in ? Big Question




*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Rasel

*This may not be a genuine video rather made by Indian intelligence agency as a doctored one. When Gen. Tikka Khan took military action from March 25, 1971, the so called members of Mukti Bahini(a terrorist army made by India) were not locals rather Indian nationals who were chanting Pakistan Zindabad in night's darkness & doing all such things like death, destruction & rape & in the morning they were mingling with local Mukti Bahini men. The earstwhile East Pakistan was gripped with internal & external conspiracy as Indian army in other forces ased people entered the land & made underground base camps & so violated international law. Pakistani army couldn't have remained sitting silently & military action was inevitable. East pakistan was NOT a disputed territory like Kashmir. Gen Tikka Khan men did military action quickly & in that quickness many innocents too got entrapped. 3 million external elements were killed & as most of them were from Indian forces, India did a lot of propaganda. Indian themselves know that any information of Indian government sources has no credibility. From 1989 till 2005 , India intelligence & media too much shouted about Pakistan's so called Operatio Topac but now Indian newspapers openly say that it was a false thing, a propaganda strategy of Indian establishment against Pakistan. Don't swayed away by just one small thing. Indian soldiers in East Pakistan in the guise of Mukti Bahini raped much more number of women there. You have very poor info abt Bangladesh. Genocide of locals was done by India, as told to me personally by many Indian Mukti Bahini men*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rasel

*If any of you know about if it's the Indian Army please discuss this is interesting. I had to cut my words like that because it wasn't working* 

Salaam 

Much Love Rasel

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Jako

Hahah....indians taking on pakistan army uniform and killing??......mukti bahini indian organization?? Dont disrespect the freedom fighters mate,without any ground knowledge,this is unacceptable...... All pakistanis are not the same,infact many are genuine gentlemen.....but what the pak army did is a unforgiving offence......nationality unnoticed,those men cant be treated as humans.......they were animals......btw,ei sob galgolpo onyo kauke gie sonaben......true bangladeshis know the original facts,irrespective of the present indo-bangla relations.....

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## notsuperstitious

Infact Yahya Khan was an Indian wearing a bio suite of a pakistani general. Had they cut him open they would have found a tiny vegetarian scared indian inside, seriously.

Now my claim has no evidence just like your claims, so i think we can discuss it seriously.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Zob

The Telegraph - Calcutta : Look


*The massacre may have been genocide, but it wasn&#8217;t committed by the Pakistan army*. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists, reports Sarmila Bose 

BITTER TRUTH: Civilians massacred in Jessore in 1971 ? but by whom? 

RECOGNITION DENIED: Father and son killed in Dhaka in 1971 
The bodies lie strewn on the ground. All are adult men, in civilian clothes. A uniformed man with a rifle slung on his back is seen on the right. A smattering of onlookers stand around, a few appear to be working, perhaps to remove the bodies. 

The caption of the photo is just as grim as its content: &#8216;April 2, 1971: Genocide by the Pakistan Occupation Force at Jessore.&#8217; It is in a book printed by Bangladeshis trying to commemorate the victims of their liberation war. 

It is a familiar scene. There are many grisly photographs of dead bodies from 1971, published in books, newspapers and websites. 

Reading another book on the 1971 war, there was that photograph again ? taken from a slightly different angle, but the bodies and the scene of the massacre were the same. But wait a minute! The caption here reads: &#8216;The bodies of businessmen murdered by rebels in Jessore city.&#8217; 

The alternative caption is in The East Pakistan Tragedy, by L.F. Rushbrook Williams, written in 1971 before the independence of Bangladesh. Rushbrook Williams is strongly in favour of the Pakistan government and highly critical of the Awami League. However, he was a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, had served in academia and government in India, and with the BBC and The Times. There was no reason to think he would willfully mislabel a photo of a massacre. 

And so, in a bitter war where so many bodies had remained unclaimed, here is a set of murdered men whose bodies are claimed by both sides of the conflict! Who were these men? And who killed them? 

It turns out that the massacre in Jessore may have been genocide, but it wasn&#8217;t committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists. 

It is but one incident, but illustrative of the emerging reality that the conflict in 1971 in East Pakistan was a lot messier than most have been led to believe. Pakistan&#8217;s military regime did try to crush the Bengali rebellion by force, and many Bengalis did die for the cause of Bangladesh&#8217;s independence. Yet, not every allegation hurled against the Pakistan army was true, while many crimes committed in the name of Bengali nationalism remain concealed. 

Once one took a second look, some of the Jessore bodies are dressed in salwar kameez ? an indication that they were either West Pakistanis or &#8216;Biharis&#8217;, the non-Bengali East Pakistanis who had migrated from northern India. 

As accounts from the involved parties ? Pakistan, Bangladesh and India ? tend to be highly partisan, it was best to search for foreign eye witnesses, if any. My search took me to newspaper archives from 35 years ago. The New York Times carried the photo on April 3, 1971, captioned: &#8216;East Pakistani civilians, said to have been slain by government soldiers, lie in Jessore square before burial.&#8217; The Washington Post carried it too, right under its masthead: &#8216;The bodies of civilians who East Pakistani sources said were massacred by the Pakistani army lie in the streets of Jessore.&#8217; &#8220;East Pakistani sources said&#8221;, and without further investigation, these august newspapers printed the photo. 

In fact, if the Americans had read The Times of London of April 2 and Sunday Times of April 4 or talked to their British colleagues, they would have had a better idea of what was happening in Jessore. In a front-page lead article on April 2 entitled &#8216;Mass Slaughter of Punjabis in East Bengal,&#8217; The Times war correspondent Nicholas Tomalin wrote an eye-witness account of how he and a team from the BBC programme Panorama saw Bengali troops and civilians march 11 Punjabi civilians to the market place in Jessore where they were then massacred. &#8220;Before we were forced to leave by threatening supporters of Shaikh Mujib,&#8221; wrote Tomalin, &#8220;we saw another 40 Punjabi &#8220;spies&#8221; being taken towards the killing ground?&#8221; 

Tomalin followed up on April 4 in Sunday Times with a detailed description of the &#8220;mid-day murder&#8221; of Punjabis by Bengalis, along with two photos ? one of the Punjabi civilians with their hands bound at the Jessore headquarters of the East Pakistan Rifles (a Bengal formation which had mutinied and was fighting on the side of the rebels), and another of their dead bodies lying in the square. He wrote how the Bengali perpetrators tried to deceive them and threatened them, forcing them to leave. As other accounts also testify, the Bengali &#8220;irregulars&#8221; were the only ones in central Jessore that day, as the Pakistan government forces had retired to their cantonment. 

Though the military action had started in Dhaka on March 25 night, most of East Pakistan was still out of the government&#8217;s control. Like many other places, &#8220;local followers of Sheikh Mujib were in control&#8221; in Jessore at that time. Many foreign media reported the killings and counter-killings unleashed by the bloody civil war, in which the army tried to crush the Bengali rebels and Bengali nationalists murdered non-Bengali civilians. 

Tomalin records the local Bengalis&#8217; claim that the government soldiers had been shooting earlier and he was shown other bodies of people allegedly killed by army firing. But the massacre of the Punjabi civilians by Bengalis was an event he witnessed himself. Tomalin was killed while covering the Yom Kippur war of 1973, but his eye-witness accounts solve the mystery of the bodies of Jessore. 

There were, of course, genuine Bengali civilian victims of the Pakistan army during 1971. Chandhan Sur and his infant son were killed on March 26 along with a dozen other men in Shankharipara, a Hindu area in Dhaka. The surviving members of the Sur family and other residents of Shankharipara recounted to me the dreadful events of that day. Amar, the elder son of the dead man, gave me a photo of his father and brother&#8217;s bodies, which he said he had come upon at a Calcutta studio while a refugee in India. The photo shows a man&#8217;s body lying on his back, clad in a lungi, with the infant near his feet. 

Amar Sur&#8217;s anguish about the death of his father and brother (he lost a sister in another shooting incident) at the hands of the Pakistan army is matched by his bitterness about their plight in independent Bangladesh. They may be the children of a &#8216;shaheed,&#8217; but their home was declared &#8216;vested property&#8217; by the Bangladesh government, he said, in spite of documents showing that it belonged to his father. Even the Awami League ? support for whom had cost this Hindu locality so many lives in 1971 ? did nothing to redress this when they formed the government. 

In the book 1971: documents on crimes against humanity committed by Pakistan army and their agents in Bangladesh during 1971, published by the Liberation War Museum, Dhaka, I came across the same photo of the Sur father and son&#8217;s dead bodies. It is printed twice, one a close-up of the child only, with the caption: &#8216;Innocent women were raped and then killed along with their children by the barbarous Pakistan Army&#8217;. Foreigners might just have mistaken the &#8216;lungi&#8217; worn by Sur for a &#8216;saree&#8217;, but surely Bangladeshis can tell a man in a &#8216;lungi&#8217; when they see one! And why present the same &#8216;body&#8217; twice? 

The contradictory claims on the photos of the dead of 1971 reveal in part the difficulty of recording a messy war, but also illustrate vividly what happens when political motives corrupt the cause of justice and humanity. The political need to spin a neat story of Pakistani attackers and Bengali victims made the Bengali perpetrators of the massacre of Punjabi civilians in Jessore conceal their crime and blame the army. The New York Times and The Washington Post &#8220;bought&#8221; that story too. The media&#8217;s reputation is salvaged in this case by the even-handed eye-witness reports of Tomalin in The Times and Sunday Times. 

As for the hapless Chandhan Sur and his infant son, the political temptation to smear the enemy to the maximum by accusing him of raping and killing women led to Bangladeshi nationalists denying their own martyrs their rightful recognition. In both cases, the true victims ?Punjabis and Bengalis, Hindus and Muslims ? were cast aside, their suffering hijacked, by political motivations of others that victimised them a second time around.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Mirage2000

Zob said:


> The Telegraph - Calcutta : Look
> 
> 
> *The massacre may have been genocide, but it wasn&#8217;t committed by the Pakistan army*. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists, reports Sarmila Bose
> 
> BITTER TRUTH: Civilians massacred in Jessore in 1971 ? but by whom?
> 
> RECOGNITION DENIED: Father and son killed in Dhaka in 1971
> The bodies lie strewn on the ground. All are adult men, in civilian clothes. A uniformed man with a rifle slung on his back is seen on the right. A smattering of onlookers stand around, a few appear to be working, perhaps to remove the bodies.
> 
> The caption of the photo is just as grim as its content: &#8216;April 2, 1971: Genocide by the Pakistan Occupation Force at Jessore.&#8217; It is in a book printed by Bangladeshis trying to commemorate the victims of their liberation war.
> 
> It is a familiar scene. There are many grisly photographs of dead bodies from 1971, published in books, newspapers and websites.
> 
> Reading another book on the 1971 war, there was that photograph again ? taken from a slightly different angle, but the bodies and the scene of the massacre were the same. But wait a minute! The caption here reads: &#8216;The bodies of businessmen murdered by rebels in Jessore city.&#8217;
> 
> The alternative caption is in The East Pakistan Tragedy, by L.F. Rushbrook Williams, written in 1971 before the independence of Bangladesh. Rushbrook Williams is strongly in favour of the Pakistan government and highly critical of the Awami League. However, he was a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, had served in academia and government in India, and with the BBC and The Times. There was no reason to think he would willfully mislabel a photo of a massacre.
> 
> And so, in a bitter war where so many bodies had remained unclaimed, here is a set of murdered men whose bodies are claimed by both sides of the conflict! Who were these men? And who killed them?
> 
> It turns out that the massacre in Jessore may have been genocide, but it wasn&#8217;t committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists.
> 
> It is but one incident, but illustrative of the emerging reality that the conflict in 1971 in East Pakistan was a lot messier than most have been led to believe. Pakistan&#8217;s military regime did try to crush the Bengali rebellion by force, and many Bengalis did die for the cause of Bangladesh&#8217;s independence. Yet, not every allegation hurled against the Pakistan army was true, while many crimes committed in the name of Bengali nationalism remain concealed.
> 
> Once one took a second look, some of the Jessore bodies are dressed in salwar kameez ? an indication that they were either West Pakistanis or &#8216;Biharis&#8217;, the non-Bengali East Pakistanis who had migrated from northern India.
> 
> As accounts from the involved parties ? Pakistan, Bangladesh and India ? tend to be highly partisan, it was best to search for foreign eye witnesses, if any. My search took me to newspaper archives from 35 years ago. The New York Times carried the photo on April 3, 1971, captioned: &#8216;East Pakistani civilians, said to have been slain by government soldiers, lie in Jessore square before burial.&#8217; The Washington Post carried it too, right under its masthead: &#8216;The bodies of civilians who East Pakistani sources said were massacred by the Pakistani army lie in the streets of Jessore.&#8217; &#8220;East Pakistani sources said&#8221;, and without further investigation, these august newspapers printed the photo.
> 
> In fact, if the Americans had read The Times of London of April 2 and Sunday Times of April 4 or talked to their British colleagues, they would have had a better idea of what was happening in Jessore. In a front-page lead article on April 2 entitled &#8216;Mass Slaughter of Punjabis in East Bengal,&#8217; The Times war correspondent Nicholas Tomalin wrote an eye-witness account of how he and a team from the BBC programme Panorama saw Bengali troops and civilians march 11 Punjabi civilians to the market place in Jessore where they were then massacred. &#8220;Before we were forced to leave by threatening supporters of Shaikh Mujib,&#8221; wrote Tomalin, &#8220;we saw another 40 Punjabi &#8220;spies&#8221; being taken towards the killing ground?&#8221;
> 
> Tomalin followed up on April 4 in Sunday Times with a detailed description of the &#8220;mid-day murder&#8221; of Punjabis by Bengalis, along with two photos ? one of the Punjabi civilians with their hands bound at the Jessore headquarters of the East Pakistan Rifles (a Bengal formation which had mutinied and was fighting on the side of the rebels), and another of their dead bodies lying in the square. He wrote how the Bengali perpetrators tried to deceive them and threatened them, forcing them to leave. As other accounts also testify, the Bengali &#8220;irregulars&#8221; were the only ones in central Jessore that day, as the Pakistan government forces had retired to their cantonment.
> 
> Though the military action had started in Dhaka on March 25 night, most of East Pakistan was still out of the government&#8217;s control. Like many other places, &#8220;local followers of Sheikh Mujib were in control&#8221; in Jessore at that time. Many foreign media reported the killings and counter-killings unleashed by the bloody civil war, in which the army tried to crush the Bengali rebels and Bengali nationalists murdered non-Bengali civilians.
> 
> Tomalin records the local Bengalis&#8217; claim that the government soldiers had been shooting earlier and he was shown other bodies of people allegedly killed by army firing. But the massacre of the Punjabi civilians by Bengalis was an event he witnessed himself. Tomalin was killed while covering the Yom Kippur war of 1973, but his eye-witness accounts solve the mystery of the bodies of Jessore.
> 
> There were, of course, genuine Bengali civilian victims of the Pakistan army during 1971. Chandhan Sur and his infant son were killed on March 26 along with a dozen other men in Shankharipara, a Hindu area in Dhaka. The surviving members of the Sur family and other residents of Shankharipara recounted to me the dreadful events of that day. Amar, the elder son of the dead man, gave me a photo of his father and brother&#8217;s bodies, which he said he had come upon at a Calcutta studio while a refugee in India. The photo shows a man&#8217;s body lying on his back, clad in a lungi, with the infant near his feet.
> 
> Amar Sur&#8217;s anguish about the death of his father and brother (he lost a sister in another shooting incident) at the hands of the Pakistan army is matched by his bitterness about their plight in independent Bangladesh. They may be the children of a &#8216;shaheed,&#8217; but their home was declared &#8216;vested property&#8217; by the Bangladesh government, he said, in spite of documents showing that it belonged to his father. Even the Awami League ? support for whom had cost this Hindu locality so many lives in 1971 ? did nothing to redress this when they formed the government.
> 
> In the book 1971: documents on crimes against humanity committed by Pakistan army and their agents in Bangladesh during 1971, published by the Liberation War Museum, Dhaka, I came across the same photo of the Sur father and son&#8217;s dead bodies. It is printed twice, one a close-up of the child only, with the caption: &#8216;Innocent women were raped and then killed along with their children by the barbarous Pakistan Army&#8217;. Foreigners might just have mistaken the &#8216;lungi&#8217; worn by Sur for a &#8216;saree&#8217;, but surely Bangladeshis can tell a man in a &#8216;lungi&#8217; when they see one! And why present the same &#8216;body&#8217; twice?
> 
> The contradictory claims on the photos of the dead of 1971 reveal in part the difficulty of recording a messy war, but also illustrate vividly what happens when political motives corrupt the cause of justice and humanity. The political need to spin a neat story of Pakistani attackers and Bengali victims made the Bengali perpetrators of the massacre of Punjabi civilians in Jessore conceal their crime and blame the army. The New York Times and The Washington Post &#8220;bought&#8221; that story too. The media&#8217;s reputation is salvaged in this case by the even-handed eye-witness reports of Tomalin in The Times and Sunday Times.
> 
> As for the hapless Chandhan Sur and his infant son, the political temptation to smear the enemy to the maximum by accusing him of raping and killing women led to Bangladeshi nationalists denying their own martyrs their rightful recognition. In both cases, the true victims ?Punjabis and Bengalis, Hindus and Muslims ? were cast aside, their suffering hijacked, by political motivations of others that victimised them a second time around.


I am very much suprised by seeing something like this from an Indian paper,however they do forget the sufferings of biharis in that insurgency.Will BD Govt which is chanting hard for PK to appologize. Will apologize for these brutalities? even when the media of their masters India is coming out with reports like these.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BanglaBhoot

I was just beginning to worry that the Bangladesh section on PDF was becoming pro-Indian and then we have this wonderful thread. I have also started another thread titled 'The spirit of 1971' which is worth reading by all Bangladeshis and I think Pakistanis and Indians will also find it informative. It is entirely true that many of the atrocities committed in 1971 were perpetrated by the Indians and the Mujib Bahini and some Mukti Bahini and subsequently blamed on the Pakistan army. I have always advocated a new approach and understanding to the war.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## TopCat

One thing I need to highlight here. Few of my observation.
1) A person needs to first disclose his identity to speak for a certain group.
2) A person should not pretend to be somebody else and speak as he represent that community.

Why I am saying that?
I found few members who are from Urdu/Bihari background and pretend to be Bengali and speak for Bengali and gives misleading inforamation. This is really unethical.
Yes there are stories from W. Pakistani and Biharies side as well and we love to hear them. But they have to clear their identity first and let us understand the clear picture. Also there are Bengalis who sided with W. Pakistani in 1971 for some ideological reason as well as from their greeds. Those people also need to clear their identity and let us hear their part of the history.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## dhaka

NBC News reports on 2/20/1972 on genocidal rapes of Bangladeshi women and girls during the Bangladesh Liberation War by pakistan army troops. 







inplace of feeling sorry for the wrongdoing of their army in 1971 , pakistani people now has gone shameless to post misleading theards like this.....
nothing more to say ...

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## BanglaBhoot

iajdani said:


> One thing I need to highlight here. Few of my observation.
> 1) A person needs to first disclose his identity to speak for a certain group.
> 2) A person should not pretend to be somebody else and speak as he represent that community.
> 
> Why I am saying that?
> I found few members who are from Urdu/Bihari background and pretend to be Bengali and speak for Bengali and gives misleading inforamation. This is really unethical.
> Yes there are stories from W. Pakistani and Biharies side as well and we love to hear them. But they have to clear their identity first and let us understand the clear picture. Also there are Bengalis who sided with W. Pakistani in 1971 for some ideological reason as well as from their greeds. Those people also need to clear their identity and let us hear their part of the history.



I think you will find that the Indians started this game. I have been on this forum longer than you have and the Indians have behaved the most atrociously. Remember that we are members of this forum due to the graciousness and courtesy of the Pakistani owners and moderators. I wish that the Bangladeshi and Indian members would stop abusing the privilege that is being accorded to us. I have been on Indian forums and they have never shown as much toleration.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hasnain2009

Stop yaar!!
Pakistan and BD are still brothers!
We only need good leaders from both sides to resolve issues!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Comet

Before 1971 there were no Bangladeshi's. They were Pakistani's and you think that Pakistani's will do such thing with Pakistani's? Why? 
Well, it was pure involvment from Indian side using maximum possibilities to ensure the divide. This can be one of them.


----------



## dhaka

MBI Munshi said:


> I think you will find that the Indians started this game. I have been on this forum longer than you have and the Indians have behaved the most atrociously. Remember that we are members of this forum due to the graciousness and courtesy of the Pakistani owners and moderators. I wish that the Bangladeshi and Indian members would stop abusing the privilege that is being accorded to us. I have been on Indian forums and they have never shown as much toleration.



so , you are a pakistani.
why you are using bangladesh flag then..
you must still be in the illusion that bangladesh is still east_pakistan...
wake up , bangladesh has long been independent...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mirage2000

dhaka said:


> for a bangladeshi , the only sad part of been pro-india is that pakistani people possing themselfs as bangladeshis , start posting/pissing misleading threads like this one.....


Wrong Mr no Pakistani is posing as bangladeshi and mind your language if you cant answer dont come up with such post just attacking others.Read and if you have some good arguments post them,if you dont just keep quite and read as somebody would come up with some reply.As for the thread why its hurts you when somebody comes up with your own mukti's faults?and BTW have you read that article posted about your "Freedom Fighters",its from an india,your great Ideal.


----------



## Mirage2000

dhaka said:


> so , you are a pakistani.
> why you are using bangladesh flag then..
> you must still be in the illusion that bangladesh is still east_pakistan...
> wake up , bangladesh has long been independent...


He is not a Pakistani but a well patriotic Bangladeshi but just because he is'nt blinded in indian love as you do what if I say you are an Indian posing to be Bangladeshi,just because you hate Pakistan and looooveeee India it does'nt mean that everybody does the same.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BanglaBhoot

dhaka said:


> so , you are a pakistani.
> why you are using bangladesh flag then..
> you must still be in the illusion that bangladesh is still east_pakistan...
> wake up , bangladesh has long been independent...



Bangladesh is independent and we will not allow India to take that away from us.


----------



## Jako

Cummon mr munshi...where did indian takeover come into this?? You are too much obbessed with india.......btw dhaka,respect other's views,you being rather pro-banglaeshi,doesnt stop others from being pro-pakistani(infact one can be both,examples are here in this forum).....mr munshi is respected by many here,and by many, not......the fact he is respected,does mean that his words isnt worthless......but the plus point is majority in bd are like you(seen in elections).......btw, this is a hearty request to the pk members,please be respectfull to the bengalis.....we are not as worthless to be called nanga bengalis.....wait a few years ,you will see what the bengalis are made of....


----------



## idune

dhaka said:


> for a bangladeshi , the only sad part of been pro-india is that pakistani people possing themselfs as bangladeshis , start posting/pissing misleading threads like this one.....




In your demented thinking anyone opposing indian bully and subversive interference is automatically become pro Pakistani and anti independence. That is precisely the indian line of propaganda and indian goal - label Bangladeshis as pro Pakistan and anti independence who oppose indian hegemonic design.

For "fresh prince of Dhaka" wanabe like yourself , your allegiance for sure with india and indian cause. We really don&#8217;t care if source of your allegiance is ancestral or religion or simply illegal indian living in Bangladesh. 

But for most of Bangladeshis, it is not about Pakistan or India; it is about Bangladesh period. Having good brotherly relation with Pakistan is something indian greed/strategy can not accept but that should not be Bangladesh problem or cost for indian cause.


----------



## Lockheed F-16

OMG, this topic has been discussed so often on the forum! There was no rape, only the PAKISTAN ARMY had to clean the area from traitors, that was all! Long live PAK ARMY! I am proud of all wht they have done


----------



## PeacefulIndian

Lockheed F-16 said:


> OMG, this topic has been discussed so often on the forum! There was no rape, only the PAKISTAN ARMY had to clean the area from *traitors*, that was all! Long live PAK ARMY! I am proud of all wht they have done



3 million traitors? And who got to decide if they were traitors?


----------



## Jako

Traitors?? Bangladeshis cherish their independence every year....bangladeshis got rid of being called east pakistan in 1971,and they feel proud to be called BANGLADESHIS......in that case all bds are traitors.....and traitor to whom?? The same who considered bengalis to be inferior.....the same who wanted to take away their way of speech-their right to express themselves........the crimes committed by the then PA is well known by everyone with a basic knowledge of bd.....and you are PROUD of them and CHERISH the deeds of those animals?? You cherish that some of your countrymen raped and killed innocent bengalis?? BRAVO!!! ANIMALS ARE ANIMALS,IT DOESNT MATTER FROM WHICH COUNTRY THEY COME.....THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED ACCORDINGLY...thnx

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Lockheed F-16

Jako said:


> Traitors?? Bangladeshis cherish their independence every year....bangladeshis got rid of being called east pakistan in 1971,and they feel proud to be called BANGLADESHIS......in that case all bds are traitors.....and traitor to whom?? The same who considered bengalis to be inferior.....the same who wanted to take away their way of speech-their right to express themselves........the crimes committed by the then PA is well known by everyone with a basic knowledge of bd.....and you are PROUD of them and CHERISH the deeds of those animals?? You cherish that some of your countrymen raped and killed innocent bengalis?? BRAVO!!! ANIMALS ARE ANIMALS,IT DOESNT MATTER FROM WHICH COUNTRY THEY COME.....THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED ACCORDINGLY...thnx



Good for you, I love o be called pakistani and I am proud of everything of PA! They have done the right, they were no animals. I mean Bengalis are dieing anyway bcz of hunger and the pak army killed the bad ones, u can think in ur propaganda bangladesh view and i in my view


----------



## Jako

Then lockheed,you are no human by any sense....what kind of man are you?? Are you for real?? Are you actually Cherishing a rape spree.......think before you speak.......the bengalis you are cursing here,has brought the nobel prize the most times in the subcontinent......dyeing bengalis of hunger,huh?? Atleast its better(though the claim is a bogus one) than beaten, flogged or stabbed to death......

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Lockheed F-16

Jako said:


> Then lockheed,you are no human by any sense....what kind of man are you?? Are you for real?? Are you actually Cherishing a rape spree.......think before you speak.......the bengalis you are cursing here,has brought the nobel prize the most times in the subcontinent......dyeing bengalis of hunger,huh?? Atleast its better(though the claim is a bogus one) than beaten, flogged or stabbed to death......



That is ur Indian POV, I got my own view. Bengalis in fact were too obsessed with being independant, PAK Army tried to save them, they didn't want to be saved and now they can eat their result. But that is another topic!


----------



## Jako

Bengalis were not obbessed with freedom....it was their right to do so.....as i told you,they were being looted of their language then,what do you expect some bengalis to do then?? And they are not sad for what they have done,vasha dibosh is still celebrated in bd.....btw,i didnt know raping was a way to save one.....i am not talking from an indian point of view,but an bengali point of view,i am closer to the people of bd and their culture than you.....and their culture is my culture,the bengali culture.....

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Lockheed F-16

Jako said:


> Bengalis were not obbessed with freedom....it was their right to do so.....as i told you,they were being looted of their language then,what do you expect some bengalis to do then?? And they are not sad for what they have done,vasha dibosh is still celebrated in bd.....btw,i didnt know raping was a way to save one.....i am not talking from an indian point of view,but an bengali point of view,i am closer to the people of bd and their culture than you.....and their culture is my culture,the bengali culture.....



Of course u r, Bengalis were RAW agents and brain-washed by it, of course u r closer to them ; I am happy I am not


----------



## Rasel

*Lockheed and Dhaka please ban these 2 members they both are Indians on this PAK DEFFENCE. 

If Pakistanis disrespected the Bangladeshis like that then i would never prove to my Bangladeshi brothers like this which i have been done for so long

It was the Indian Army who raped our young sisters and killed brothers.. it was 300,000 who where killed somone says that Indians are liar.. 

Dhaka: your the one whose wannabe Bangladeshi ..Dhaka the truth about you is your Indian Spy.. you give reports to the Indian people about the Pakistanis. 

The truth is that Bangladeshis and Pakistanis are like brothers and sisters. If you can't see that then go cry like an new born baby. Everytime whenever Pakistan plays cricket match against Indians.. the Bangladeshis support Pakistanis look this 
link: http://rupeenews.com/2008/06/14/kit...ry-over-indiameans-so-much-more-than-cricket/ 

Many of the young Bangladeshi generation do researching about the past of 1971 and many of the Bangladeshis have said that i was the Indian Army who raped our sisters 

Truth is Pakistani Army has been in Bangladesh for longer. And when the Indian Army came to help Bangladeshis the Indian Army Men tricked Bengalis and raped our sisters what a shame on Indians. Indians still do rape many of the religious minorities in India are been raped everyday 

My Muslims fellow have y'all forgotten by the Gujarat Genocide which many of these Hindus did? . Hindus burnt our muslim sisters alive.. they destroyd a lot muslim people houses down in Ahmedabad, Gujarat India. 

Was that Pakistanis? Hindus can't blame a recently episode on Pakistanis never because it was the Hindus who did. AND THAT HAPPENEND IN 2002 .. our Babri Masjid got destroyd by Indians = Hindus. *


----------



## Lockheed F-16

Rasel said:


> *Lockheed and Dhaka please ban these 2 members they both are Indians on this PAK DEFFENCE.
> 
> If Pakistanis disrespected the Bangladeshis like that then i would never prove to my Bangladeshi brothers like this which i have been done for so long
> 
> It was the Indian Army who raped our young sisters and killed brothers.. it was 300,000 who where killed somone says that Indians are liar.. *



Brother, I am definitely no Indian! I also like Bengalis but I hate it, when 1000 threads are opened abt the genocide, that is not fair!

THAT IS THE POINT, IT WAS THE RAW AND INDIAN ARMY, NOT THE PA!


----------



## Jako

I wonder why then the bangladeshis say so,and still are wanting a formal apology from pakistan.......btw i am proud to be a bengali,and am happy you are not,lockheed.......rasel,i respect your brotherly feeling for the bangladeshis,and would like to see bd improve with any nation of their choice.....but you should take a broader look at the bd history of independence,and check the reality......

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rasel

*OK

But I'm new on this and I'm Pakistani and Bangladeshi I'm proud of my both nation because we all believe in one UMMAH .. And one Allah!

This is fair you know why ? if you read this thread you would understand what i was actually talking about. 

I was talking about that the Indian Army raped our sisters from Bangladesh and they blamed on Pakistani Army everywhere on the Internet you see you would see these Indians are only blaming upon us Pakistanis .. which is totally wrong!

There's a lot of hiddin truth behind the darkest doors. this Liberation War was covert operation.. done by Indian RAW.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Lockheed F-16

Rasel said:


> *OK
> 
> But I'm new on this and I'm Pakistani and Bangladeshi I'm proud of my both nation because we all believe in one UMMAH .. And one Allah!
> 
> This is fair you know why ? if you read this thread you would understand what i was actually talking about.
> 
> I was talking about that the Indian Army raped our sisters from Bangladesh and they blamed on Pakistani Army everywhere on the Internet you see you would see these Indians are only blaming upon us Pakistanis .. which is totally wrong!
> 
> There's a lot of hiddin truth behind the darkest doors. this Liberation War was covert operation.. done by Indian RAW.*




Mate, that was what I was talking about! Pakistan army never did everything, everything they have done was right, it was RAW which did all those things! I don't hate Bengalis, but those baseless blames against Pakistan


----------



## Rasel

*Jako 

I have sitting my *** off and reading about the Bangladeshi history listen man Bangladeshi has a lot with Indians to do as well Indians are not ''ANGELS'' nor they have ever been Angels many says Pakistanis killed 200,000 Bengalis which is also a lie. Nobody knows the total.. amount of it. 

Bangladesh has 2 independence one is 26th march .. and they should celebrate that this Raping was done by Indians. 

If those Bengalis claim Pakistan then they are aware from truth *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Lockheed F-16

Rasel said:


> *Jako
> 
> I have sitting my *** off and reading about the Bangladeshi history listen man Bangladeshi has a lot with Indians to do as well Indians are not ''ANGELS'' nor they have ever been Angels many says Pakistanis killed 200,000 Bengalis which is also a lie. Nobody knows the total.. amount of it.
> 
> Bangladesh has 2 independence one is 26th march .. and they should celebrate that this Raping was done by Indians.
> 
> If those Bengalis claim Pakistan then they are aware from truth *



I always hear them complaining abt Pakistan


----------



## Lockheed F-16

*2. Many Bengalis came in that trick of the Indian Policy.

3. Bangladeshis never had a significant proof of that Yahya Khan ever said to kill ''threee million bengalis'' the only truth is that there are some fake links on internet sites which are mostly based against Pakistani Army! And there some books where they say three million Bengalis where Genocied and a lot of raped to. But the Americans are confused wether it's 1 or 3 million who got raped by Indian Army.

4. Yayha Khan was a believer of Ismaili sect of Islam which is sevner believers of Islam i don't even think they are Muslims! And many Pakistanis did not supported him trust me there are many million in Pakistan who did not know what happened during 1971 Genocide. It's proved that the Pakistanis themself never supported there army against the Bengali Genocide.. It also prove us that the Genocide was done by Indian Army. Because no Muslims would never do such an disgust act against our Muslim brothers and sisters. 

5. Many Bengalis did blamed that it was the Pakistani Muslims who genocided and raped a lot of the bengalis. But could they ever prove about that it was the Pakistani Muslims who actually did so??? *
I would love to show the sites but many say that the PakBD Liberation War was ''Covert Operation'' and it was done by the Indian RAW. And there is a site called www.*************** 

History can sometimes lie and deny about the secret facts. Everything is just going against one Nation and one group of people in the 1971 History of Bangladesh.

As i mentioned the BanglaPak Liberation War was a Covert Operation.

In 2009 many Bangladeshi people will blame the Pakistani Army because of the false and misunderstood history. But past is past 1971 can't be related with 2009 Pakistanis have said sorry to Bangladeshis when it wasn't even Pakistani Army Muslim fault the same way can Pakistanis do ask the Bengali brothers can you people prove us where Pakistani Muslim Army people raped the women's of Bangladesh or did genocide i admit there was some of accident of Pakistani Army but not a lot. Bangladesh big mistake was to work together with India Army espcially when they came to Bangladesh to fight the Pakistani Army. And Bangladeshis took the Indian site before the Indian Armies even where in BD then there where never seen such a brutal genocides which where done on 1971. Why did everything changed when the Indian Army came in ? Big Question 






This may not be a genuine video rather made by Indian intelligence agency as a doctored one. When Gen. Tikka Khan took military action from March 25, 1971, the so called members of Mukti Bahini(a terrorist army made by India) were not locals rather Indian nationals who were chanting Pakistan Zindabad in night's darkness & doing all such things like death, destruction & rape & in the morning they were mingling with local Mukti Bahini men. The earstwhile East Pakistan was gripped with internal & external conspiracy as Indian army in other forces ased people entered the land & made underground base camps & so violated international law. Pakistani army couldn't have remained sitting silently & military action was inevitable. East pakistan was NOT a disputed territory like Kashmir. Gen Tikka Khan men did military action quickly & in that quickness many innocents too got entrapped. 3 million external elements were killed & as most of them were from Indian forces, India did a lot of propaganda. Indian themselves know that any information of Indian government sources has no credibility. From 1989 till 2005 , India intelligence & media too much shouted about Pakistan's so called Operatio Topac but now Indian newspapers openly say that it was a false thing, a propaganda strategy of Indian establishment against Pakistan. Don't swayed away by just one small thing. Indian soldiers in East Pakistan in the guise of Mukti Bahini raped much more number of women there. You have very poor info abt Bangladesh. Genocide of locals was done by India, as told to me personally by many Indian Mukti Bahini men

Please read this link: http://www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.n...


----------



## Rasel

*Indians blame Pakistanis because they wanna spear the hatring against Bangladeshi brothers and sisters and the same they wanna do with Pakistanis 

Truth about Indians are they are 2 faced there 2 faced will oneday end up in the hell and they wouldn't know who kicked there a**** I get angry on those Indians who blame Pakistanis for everything 

Remember Indians y'all are on Pakistani thread and calling out Pakistanis

I have never heard of these conspiracy theories. And the number of killed over nine months was not 3 million, it was 300,000. 

I can't say that I believe you, but I do know is that those killed were not poor village people. They were politicians, business people, students and professors. And as a result the country had a bad start. 

I still find it laughable that after 38 years, Bangladeshi war criminals are facing trail for aiding the Pakistani Army. 

If you can proof it was the Indians that caused the genocide, what then? Even if you can proof it, who will give a damn about those facts? The Indians are even constructing a damn that will dry up river Meghna from which many poor Bangladeshis rely their livelihoods on. And the stupid AL administration just seems to go by it. 

Boy, "Shining India" has been doing well for the past 38 years and both Bangladesh and Pakistan are in a mess. The latter having a tight leash tied by......well you know who. 

There is corruption in Bangladesh everywhere. God knows what will happen after wards.

There is credibility in your facts though. *


----------



## Jako

Rasel,its good you love bangladesh....but would you disagree with the following facts-1-the then pakistani leadership,tried to vanish the bengali culture by disturbing the pillar-mother tongue....the bengalis protested.....,2-most of bd wanted freedom,as was evident from the smile of victory,and celebration of inependence,ever year.....3-the bds treat the freedom fighters as heroes....felicitation to many IA generals were given for their brave participation in the liberation war.......which shows the role played by IA....4-bd still demands a formal apology from pakistan,which furthur proves their wrong doings 5-lastly,the bengalis know their history better than any one,my banglaeshi friends say what i have been saying,majority of banglaesh sees pak army as the culprits....thnx


----------



## Jako

I am in defence.pk as its one of the most neutral and unbiased defence forum around,led by a gem group of mods and admins......they verify our claims and judge the truth,not just rubbish everything for being anti-pakistani......no man is completely pure,you know.......same applies to both the IA and PA....,I SALUTE DEFENCE.PK FOR SUCH SINCERE AND GENOROUS MODERATING


----------



## Rasel

*To be honest with you that has nothing do to with Pakistanis it's not like in our hands or it's not like my hand do to so 

You said Pakistanis forced to let Bengalis to speak the Urdu.. your aware from truth again Pakistanis never forced them but when British people set West and East then Pakistanis had the same love for all there Pakistanis fellow.. They said that Urdu should be national language of East Pakistan to but Bengalis said if the language of Pakistan be Urdu.. then a lot of Bengalis will be illiterate. Still today a lot of the Bangla language is mixed with URDU. *


----------



## Jako

The british said so,and they were gone......the pak govt tried to implement that forcibly......the outcome was a bloody revolt.....my point is that......


----------



## Rasel

*If you want to listen to the PEOPLE who are against ISLAM and Muslims around the world then i the only think i can say is go listen to there FALSE THEOLOGY 

If British people never came thru India like which happened i Don't think there would be hatring and discrimination in the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT!.. 

If British people said that many of the Indian girl's where raped in England would you believe them? would you Jako? 

I don't think that and the same case is with the Pakistanis who you say that they forced .. They never forced there language to Bengalis but they rather saw them as there own brothers. When Indians plays a Cricket match with there own states like the for example the North plays with the South still who are they? of course they are Indians it dosen't matter if your SOUTH WEST OR EAST NORTH .. still you would be Indian. The same matter was for the West Pakistanis they saw East Pakistanis as there own blooded people.

Still if Pakistanis want as many do . They can learn the Bangla language fluently and fast because Bangla got same words as urdu . And it's easy to learn. *


----------



## Jako

True rasel,very true,most times......but i would like to point out that apart from religion(which is infact very important)....the bengali culture and the pak culture had very little in common,furthur the bengalis are a group who refuse to be wanded and dictated upon,(visible in history,many times)that was the exact case,and during the implementation of urdu,bengalis were hurt on that rough patch......i know all pakistanis are not the same,but many west pakistanis in bd ,referred to the bengalis as an inferior race,and certain phrases were used(i wd pm you if you request)against the bengalis which blew them red hot......many pakistanis now wd disagree to this,as your mentality is not the same and much matured,but things were truly different then.....thnx


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Rasel said:


> *4. Yayha Khan was a believer of Ismaili sect of Islam which is sevner believers of Islam i don't even think they are Muslims!
> *



*Do not cast aspersions on the faith of someone.

This is a matter only between a Muslim and his God - man has no business making these claims and passing judgment.*


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

dhaka said:


> so , you are a pakistani.
> why you are using bangladesh flag then..
> you must still be in the illusion that bangladesh is still east_pakistan...
> wake up , bangladesh has long been independent...



*STOP accusing others of being dishonest about their identity. Just because some people disagree with you is no reason to engage in personal attacks.

Address the arguments, not the origin of the poster.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

PeacefulIndian said:


> 3 million traitors? And who got to decide if they were traitors?



Given that Mujib himself revised that number several times, I'd say that a lot more needs to be done to determine the true events that occurred in 1971.


----------



## Rasel

*Well the there was not RACIAL ABUSION BY THE PAK ARMY but it was the American Media who posed it like that because Pakistan is a Aryan country and Pak is mixed . And they discribed there army people to be lighter. But our people are in same coloured as North Indians. And the Indian Army Men where also Light Skinned.

Agnostic truth can be found and soon there will be TRUTH EXPOSED!*


----------



## booo

Rasel said:


> *Well the there was not RACIAL ABUSION BY THE PAK ARMY but it was the American Media who posed it like that because Pakistan is a Aryan country and Pak is mixed . And they discribed there army people to be lighter. But our people are in same coloured as North Indians. And the Indian Army Men where also Light Skinned.
> 
> Agnostic truth can be found and soon there will be TRUTH EXPOSED!*


buddy, I want the stuff that you've been smoking/snorting. Please...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Skeptic

Rasel said:


> *Buddy go say Gay Mata. that's your motto
> 
> I have been proved your a** out here for so long and yet your asking me ?
> 
> Truth is what you have seen. Stop denying the history *



Take a chill pill, calm down and easy on the *bold*. We get the point that whatever you say is of utmost importance. From now onwards your name will be enough reason to read the post as if written in bold. It'll be slightly easy on the eyes still being no less important.

Now first use the kind language that your religion preaches and also stick to the basic principals of not harbouring hatred for any religion before chanting Islamic prayers.

Also try and comprehend a complete sentence before you start typing. That would definitely improve the quality of your posts and arguments.


----------



## dhaka

Lockheed F-16 said:


> Good for you, I love o be called pakistani and I am proud of everything of PA! They have done the right, they were no animals. I mean Bengalis are dieing anyway bcz of hunger and the pak army killed the bad ones, u can think in ur propaganda bangladesh view and i in my view




you keep you views with you , tribunal will take care of each war criminal during 1971..
govt will not hasitate even moving to UN on this issue ..


----------



## Patriot

dhaka said:


> you keep you views with you , tribunal will take care of each war criminal during 1971..
> govt will not hasitate even moving to UN on this issue ..


Trust me Pakistan does not give a **** about your war crime thing.Move it to UN.What can you do?India could not do anything about Mumbai attacks and do you honestly believe that we will do anything for BD?We will have a couldnt-care-less attitude.


----------



## TopCat

saadahmed said:


> Trust me Pakistan does not give a **** about your war crime thing.Move it to UN.Who can you do?India could not do anything about Mumbai attacks and do you honestly believe that we will do anything for BD?We will have a couldnt-care-less attitude.



There is a misconception of war crime tribunal and people getting upset about it. It was about individual crime and nothing against Pakistan. When we put Bangladeshi before the tribunal, does that mean the whole Bangladesh going before it??? Most of the people we will be trying are Bangladeshi and few big wigs (still not decided) from PK ex army. It would be great if Pakistan people support the cause and make themselves worthy of a civilized culture.

By saying individual crime, I also like to add that, this way we will kill a certain stereotyped ideology which is pulling both of our nation backward.


----------



## PeacefulIndian

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Given that Mujib himself revised that number several times, I'd say that a lot more needs to be done to determine the true events that occurred in 1971.




I gave the figure which Bangladesh authorities claim. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities 

Also in this article. 

May be more needs to be done to investigate what happened back in 1971. But I was just countering denial mode of one of the posters who referred to them as traitors. And the original poster, needless to say, in on a ranting spree trying to prove something against India out of something he calls his 'research'.


----------



## Zob

ok firstly the reason why EUROPE has developed is because the FRENCH & GERMANS & ITALIANS sat together let the past stay in the past and moved on.....while as for SOUTH ASIA....


we still hold grudges against each other....the only country who i think has no issues with any other is SRI LANKA....they are equally liked by BANGALDESH,PAKISTAN,INDIA.....i guess its time to bury the crap and MOVE ON....


so what will the bangladeshis get if we say sorry....do you become rich over night do you get a booming economy...do you become a leading research and development country....do your poor get jobs....

if they do then i guess you guys should seek APOLOGY...otherwise i guess you guys should just concentrate on making the COUNTRY YOU GOT....better stronger more powerful!!! 

as NAPOLEN once said the VICTORIOUS right the HISTORY....i guess that could be true for 1971...


so my BANGLADESHI friends try to make the country you got better rather than seek an apology that doesn't change the life of the common man!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## idune

Zob said:


> ok firstly the reason why EUROPE has developed is because the FRENCH & GERMANS & ITALIANS sat together let the past stay in the past and moved on.....while as for SOUTH ASIA....
> 
> 
> 
> so my BANGLADESHI friends try to make the country you got better rather than seek an apology that doesn't change the life of the common man!!!



This hoopla about apology by Awami stooges are only to appease indian appetite for division. Its as simple as that.

In reality there is not much relevance of apology after almost 40 years. This political stunt awami league is playing will not take them anywhere. Besides, these awami ministers have not done anything to show to people since they assumed power 4 months ago. So people in general have much more important things to do than paying attention to awami flip flop indian controlled ministers.

So let us focus on something meaningful.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TopCat

Zob said:


> ok firstly the reason why EUROPE has developed is because the FRENCH & GERMANS & ITALIANS sat together let the past stay in the past and moved on.....while as for SOUTH ASIA....
> 
> 
> we still hold grudges against each other....the only country who i think has no issues with any other is SRI LANKA....they are equally liked by BANGALDESH,PAKISTAN,INDIA.....i guess its time to bury the crap and MOVE ON....
> 
> 
> so what will the bangladeshis get if we say sorry....do you become rich over night do you get a booming economy...do you become a leading research and development country....do your poor get jobs....
> 
> if they do then i guess you guys should seek APOLOGY...otherwise i guess you guys should just concentrate on making the COUNTRY YOU GOT....better stronger more powerful!!!
> 
> as NAPOLEN once said the VICTORIOUS right the HISTORY....i guess that could be true for 1971...
> 
> 
> so my BANGLADESHI friends try to make the country you got better rather than seek an apology that doesn't change the life of the common man!!!



That is because they found a common ground after the war and they closed the chapter after 1945 regardless of whichever side they were. All the countries have common law which forbids any denial of holocaust. Also all the countries are on the same footing on trying any Nazis who committed inhuman crimes in WW2.

Agian going back to WW1 when chapter was not closed which only lead to another world war.


----------



## TopCat

PeacefulIndian said:


> I gave the figure which Bangladesh authorities claim.
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities
> 
> Also in this article.
> 
> May be more needs to be done to investigate what happened back in 1971. But I was just countering denial mode of one of the posters who referred to them as traitors. And the original poster, needless to say, in on a ranting spree trying to prove something against India out of something he calls his 'research'.



Exact number is not that important. You kill one person or you kill 1000s, both has the same sentence.. HANG.

Were there mass killing in 1971- Yes
Does killing fall in the category of genocide? - Yes
Does pattern of killing suggest anniliation of certain ethnic and religious group - Yes
Does those killing done by regular disciplined forces - Yes.
Was those killing done by the command of higher authorities - yes
Did mass raping take place- yes

All above are true and qualify for a judicial process.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## abbasniazi

well, to me (many may not agree to my opinion), the division of india was non-realistic, there should have been atleast 3 countries or maximum 4, (Pakistan including whole jammu and kashmir, India, Bangladesh,Khalistan), this should have been a more realistic division of india, why we forget sikhs all the time? they r neither hindu nor muslims, they are strong enough to maintain themselves as a separate nation, our problem is that we have had some leaders who wanted to live ever after in the memories of their nations by bringing more and more whether or not that belong to their nation, like nehru etc, gandhi however was a bit different, come on men, live and let others live, pakistan is under immense pressure now adays but it doesn't mean it will always remain the same, we will surely come out strong through this crises, the more ur enemies put pressure on you the more they expose their mental filter,tactics,moves to u, if u r a good learner u always learn and use it for the future reference and that we r doing now, as far as war crimes in bangladesh are concerned, if so happened at that scale(which i have doubt about) then its condemnable, and as one of the members said the scale of crime rate doesn't matter one crime is as bad as a thousand, then brothers no army of the world could be free of the charge of war crimes, indian army does it in many states with everyday that passes, US army does it, russians, and it goes on and on and on, just forget about all this and commit yourselves to refrain from such doings in future, whether it be you or me.....


----------



## Zob

iajdani said:


> That is because they found a common ground after the war and they closed the chapter after 1945 regardless of whichever side they were. All the countries have common law which forbids any denial of holocaust. Also all the countries are on the same footing on trying any Nazis who committed inhuman crimes in WW2.
> 
> *Agian going back to WW1 when chapter was not closed which only lead to another world war*.




No WW2 was caused because of humiliation and hatred that the GERMANS felt because of the Rhineland being given to the FRENCH and GERMANY having to give money to the winning powers!! 

HITLER rose to power because the GERMANS wanted their honour and dignity back!!! so don't twist facts mate!!! 

did the modern day ISRAEL ask the GERMANS to say sorry for the holocaust?? 

as for your JUDCIAL INQUIRY sorry buddy if you guys want to wake up 40 years later when most of the people are dead WE are not willing to be a part of it!!! 

and if that is the case we want to open a case against MUJIB for being a traitor who got funds and help from INDIA.....then i guess let's bring it on....


----------



## khabib

Jako said:


> I wonder why then the bangladeshis say so,and still are wanting a formal apology from pakistan.......btw i am proud to be a bengali,and am happy you are not,lockheed.......rasel,i respect your brotherly feeling for the bangladeshis,and would like to see bd improve with any nation of their choice.....but you should take a broader look at the bd history of independence,and check the reality......



jako, this is probably more for a domestic politics and trying to show that you are close to india or anti-Pak. Definitely, worst from of human right violation took place during 1971 and january 1972 published " Time" magazine put that number to around 1 Million.

surely the claim of 3.5 million by us-the bangladeshi is totally unfounded. What we do not reflect is that before 1971 incident pro 
Awami league mussleman did killed lots of Urdu spoken People in riots. During 1971 war and after 1971 war this killing also continued. 

if you look back at the armanian genoside of first world war by Turk,
Similar pattern emerges. Armanian killed some turk and all hell break loose. Same thing happen in 1971 bangladeshi war. 

not to mention here that we have our own jenoside in Chittagong hills tracts also against the Chakma people. Interestingly, Santi bahani
are totally funded by india and its activity goes up and down according to who is in power- BNP or Awami league 

When I look at the people who are trying to deny that genoside did not happen whether in Bangladesh in 1971, Kashmir in 1990s or In chittagong hills tracts of bangladesh, I wonder whom we are trying to defend - the rapist and the killer who are a simple disgrace to the uniform or our so called political elite or national pride.


----------



## Rasel

*Nobody knows how many where killed in Genocide of Bangladesh. 

If you look on the fake internet site which are against Pakistanis and Pakistan.. and there army ..some of them will say it was 200,000 some will say 300,000 some will say 2 million and some will say 3 million it is fake. the truth is that the killing where less not even to 1.5 2 or 3 .. million this is false. 

I Think that Bangladesh needs to be more improve rather then to watch the history of Bangladesh because now it's independent state and there are a lot of things which need to be developed in the country we cannot blame any other no more because our countrys population is like 150 million and there are a lot of pollution and things like . 

The same with Pakistan need to be improved as well . *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Xtremeownage

GREAT POST! It exposes these Indian fascists for who they truly are! 

Thank you! Keep on spreading the TRUTH!

The genocide of innocent Bengalis at the hands of these Indian fascists was a terrible event and Bengalis must realize that Indians did these horrible things!

Pakistan Zindabad!


----------



## Al-zakir

Rasel said:


> *It was the Indian Army people who raped a lot of the Bangladeshi Women's. But many of course blamed the Muslim Pakistani Army.
> 
> 1. Indian Army Men used to change the Pak Army Uniforms and put it on there bodies to make Bengalis fool in there eyes they knew who they where. But in the Bengali eyes they where Pakistani Muslims.
> 
> 2. Many Bengalis came in that trick of the Indian Policy.
> 
> 3. Bangladeshis never had a significant proof of that Yahya Khan ever said to kill ''threee million bengalis'' the only truth is that there are some fake links on internet sites which are mostly based against Pakistani Army! And there some books where they say three million Bengalis where Genocied and a lot of raped to. But the Americans are confused wether it's 1 or 3 million who got raped by Indian Army.*




I have been saying it all along that it was Indian and bastard musjib mushrik bahini that killed and raped in the name of pak army and Islamic personal. Their main goal was to label pak army as the evil and blood thirsty thus they accomplished to paint that pictures on the local people to gain support. Rest is well known.

Most of the killing and raping took placed in rural area where pak army couldn't get to because of poor infrastructure. They mainly roam around big cities where road was available at that time.


----------



## EyelessInGaza

I find revisionists versions of history highly amusing, primarily because they are based mostly on off the wall opinions masquerading as facts, most often touted by off the wall representatives masquerading as rational men.

Not amusing, actually. Hilarious.

The Pakistani army couldn't get to rural areas because of poor infrastructure!

But the Indian army did because they had attached air powered propellers to their tanks and vehicles? While wearing Pakistani army uniforms!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TopCat

murshid said:


> actually these bangladeshi women are very hot ,and because banglasdesh is poor country , they won't even wear full cloths..
> so , a armyman , get tempted ,
> that was the reason.



Bangladeshi women are not that hot.. but the army men did not learn the values from their own mom and sisters, how to respect other women. i wonder, may be their own women were not treated right in their own neighbourhood.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notsuperstitious

Al-zakir said:


> I have been saying it all along that it was Indian and bastard musjib mushrik bahini that killed and raped in the name of pak army and Islamic personal. Their main goal was to label pak army as the evil and blood thirsty thus they accomplished to paint that pictures on the local people to gain support. Rest is well known.
> 
> Most of the killing and raping took placed in rural area where pak army couldn't get to because of poor infrastructure. They mainly roam around big cities where road was available at that time.



Trying to float conspiracy theories decades after sure is desperate. If you think you are sounding reasonable with that ruling Pakistani army could not reach rural parts and Indians army killed so many hindus to give a bad name to pakistanis then it speaks volumes of your reasoning ability.

An Army Insider&#8217;s Honest Expose of Atrocities in East Pakistan Debacle | Bangladesh Genocide Archive


----------



## zombie

...................


----------



## BanglaBhoot

murshid said:


> you people won't consider them hot.
> that's why our armymen had to do the JOB in 1971.



Are you mentally retarded or something?


----------



## rokhanyousafzai

Jako said:


> Then lockheed,you are no human by any sense....what kind of man are you?? Are you for real?? Are you actually Cherishing a rape spree.......think before you speak.......the bengalis you are cursing here,has brought the nobel prize the most times in the subcontinent......dyeing bengalis of hunger,huh?? Atleast its better(though the claim is a bogus one) than beaten, flogged or stabbed to death......



oh please cut the crap this isnt a soap on star plus so stop with the dramatic language if u want to talk about what is right and wrong then i suggest u denounce the acts of indian soldiers in kashmir and i suggest u denouce indian involvement in pakistan and ask for an independant kashmir and allowing them to choose their fate.
As for this thread i suggest someone read 'The Betrayal Of East Pakistan' its a great book and it does say about the rape and looting that took place but it was under general tikka and when niazi came in those members were punished for doing it and discharged and it was nowhere on the level that india claimed its a great book with some great insight also the number of troops surrendered was actually 35000 not 90000 which is a ridicolous figure and an outright lie


----------



## Jako

Hahah rokhan.....before commenting on my post,try to understand what the statements meant,and to whom it was directed.......and why it was directed.......mate,we are talking bout bengalis here,not kashmiris....try this old trick someplace else..


----------



## mukti_bahini

Lockheed F-16 said:


> Good for you, I love o be called pakistani and I am proud of everything of PA! They have done the right, they were no animals. I mean Bengalis are dieing anyway bcz of hunger and the pak army killed the bad ones, u can think in ur propaganda bangladesh view and i in my view



i am sincerly finding PDF a place where i shouldn't be caming back..


----------



## idune

mukti_bahini said:


> i am sincerly finding PDF a place where i shouldn't be caming back..



No one invited you, yet you showed up!!!

By the way what is multi bahini doing when indians are killing Bangladeshis and taking control of Bangladesh defense forces???


----------



## mukti_bahini

............................................


----------



## murshid

Lockheed F-16 said:


> Good for you, I love o be called pakistani and I am proud of everything of PA! They have done the right, they were no animals. I mean Bengalis are dieing anyway bcz of hunger and the pak army killed the bad ones, u can think in ur propaganda bangladesh view and i in my view



there is a valid point in your views ..


----------



## Zob

look people not every finger on your hand is equal.....in the same way no two people are equal!!! 

what i might see as a 6 you might see it as a 9.....

so not all PA men are rapist some might have been....but then some bengalis also did mass genocide against those who supported the federation and didn't agree with a free independat BANGLADESH!!

we consider mujib a traitor you consider him as a hero....see now judging all pakistanis equally or all bengalis as traitors would be wrong

the best approach is let bygones be bygones.....most of the people involved in the messed up stuff are dead....let got judge them why are we arguing about the past when in present we still have so much that we need to fix!!


----------



## rokhanyousafzai

Jako said:


> Hahah rokhan.....before commenting on my post,try to understand what the statements meant,and to whom it was directed.......and why it was directed.......mate,we are talking bout bengalis here,not kashmiris....try this old trick someplace else..



sorry if ur so concerned about human rights then apply it to everyone not a particular nation or people because it serves to distain pakistan u hypocrite and try to answer me back not just pretend to laugh it off because u dont know what to say


----------



## Always Neutral

umairp said:


> Before 1971 there were no Bangladeshi's. They were Pakistani's and you think that Pakistani's will do such thing with Pakistani's? Why?
> Well, it was pure involvment from Indian side using maximum possibilities to ensure the divide. This can be one of them.



Is that why Bhutto a pakistani called Bengalis, PIGS and was cheered by a million fellow pakistanis ?

Regards


----------



## Zob

*Is that why Bhutto a pakistani called Bengalis, PIGS and was cheered by a million fellow pakistanis ?*

that was after seperation....hey after a breakup people do say things they don't mean inorder to get over the trauma....


we are finally over the whole bengali breakup thing.....i guess...its time for them to move on as well....


----------



## salman nedian

The whole discussion reminds me a GEO TV advertisement/ public service message in which children say:

&#8216;Bas kar do Bas&#8217;


----------



## BanglaBhoot

mukti_bahini said:


> i am sincerly finding PDF a place where i shouldn't be caming back..



Yep good riddance. You should not have bothered with the pro-Indian views that you hold.


----------



## murshid

Always Neutral said:


> Is that why Bhutto a pakistani called Bengalis, PIGS and was cheered by a million fellow pakistanis ?
> 
> Regards



lots of things had been said , lets not get deep into it now..


----------



## murshid

mukti_bahini said:


> i am sincerly finding PDF a place where i shouldn't be caming back..



see , i personally has no problum with you , i got a warning from administrater , so things could expected be better for you here in future.
initialy i feel angre coz you put up the picture of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman in your profile which non of the pakistani would like to see.

but then i thought may be you people has the same respect for Sheikh Mujibur Rahman just like we has for Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and indian for Gandhi.


----------



## Al-zakir

murshid said:


> but then i thought may be you people has the same respect for Sheikh Mujibur Rahman just like we has for Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and indian for Gandhi.



Mujib is the leader of Awami league and not the leader of whole nation unlike M.A Jinnah or Gandhi. Mujib perceive as a leader once in the time of history but later proven to be a complete stooge.


----------



## Always Neutral

Zob said:


> *Is that why Bhutto a pakistani called Bengalis, PIGS and was cheered by a million fellow pakistanis ?*
> 
> that was after seperation....hey after a breakup people do say things they don't mean inorder to get over the trauma....
> 
> 
> we are finally over the whole bengali breakup thing.....i guess...its time for them to move on as well....



Sorry Zob,

Your facts are wrong. It was before the seperation.

Regards


----------



## TopCat

Al-zakir said:


> Mujib is the leader of Awami league and not the leader of whole nation unlike M.A Jinnah or Gandhi. Mujib perceive as a leader once in the time of history but later proven to be a complete stooge.



Mujib had far more access to the people than Jinnah or Gandhi.
2 observation.
1) He led the whole nation including army to raise arms against the W. Pakistani. Jinnah and Gandhi could dream about it against british.
2) He made the whole nation to surrender arms within a month (that includes anti liberation force) of liberation without intervention of Indian army. Could be a dream to any liberation leader.


----------



## Zob

Always Neutral said:


> Sorry Zob,
> 
> Your facts are wrong. It was before the seperation.
> 
> Regards



sorry buddy i know my facts perfectly well..... he said it in a public speech infront of millions and it was when he was asking the people to accept BANGLADESH or not??? 

please provide a source to back your statement...


----------



## Skeptic

Zob said:


> sorry buddy i know my facts perfectly well..... he said it in a public speech infront of millions and it was when he was asking the people to accept BANGLADESH or not???
> 
> please provide a source to back your statement...








This is the speech. You can decide for youself. It seems that it was immediately after partition, although date is not mentioned.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MBI Munshi said:


> Yep good riddance. You should not have bothered with the pro-Indian views that you hold.



He was in India - and he reported every single Bangladeshi member who held views such as yours - idune, Al Zakir, yourself - and asked us to investigate their identity and ensure they were Bangladeshis.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Al-zakir

iajdani said:


> Mujib had far more access to the people than Jinnah or Gandhi.
> 2 observation.
> 1) He led the whole nation including army to raise arms against the W. Pakistani. Jinnah and Gandhi could dream about it against british.
> 2) He made the whole nation to surrender arms within a month (that includes anti liberation force) of liberation without intervention of Indian army. Could be a dream to any liberation leader.



Coming out this BS from a pro-Awami, pro-Indian and pro-Mujib is expected thus I am not surprise. 

Mujib surrendered himself to pak army just before crack down and stayed in west Pakistan jail to save his own *** while send his whole family to Europe and rest of his dalal bahini fled to mother India leaving behind 6 cr east Pakistani to wonderland with out any direction. Why??? When he himself and his dalal bahini brought misery upon innocent east Pakistani.

whole nation would have respected him if he had stayed back and face the army like a brave but he was just a plain coward with big mouth.

M.A Jinnah created Pakistan with his leadership and intelligence while M. Gandhi spent most of his life spreading Peace for unity whereas Mujib was a accidental leader without any leadership skill. 

General Zia have more contribution to today's modern Bangladesh than so called Bongo bandu.


----------



## TopCat

Seems like Bhutto even did not know what he was doing there. Feel sorry for that guy.


----------



## TopCat

Al-zakir said:


> Coming out this BS from a pro-Awami, pro-Indian and pro-Mujib is expected thus I am not surprise.
> 
> Mujib surrendered himself to pak army just before crack down and stayed in west Pakistan jail to save his own *** while send his whole family to Europe and rest of his dalal bahini fled to mother India leaving behind 6 cr east Pakistani to wonderland with out any direction. Why??? When he himself and his dalal bahini brought misery upon innocent east Pakistani.
> 
> whole nation would have respected him if he had stayed back and face the army like a brave but he was just a plain coward with big mouth.
> 
> M.A Jinnah created Pakistan with his leadership and intelligence while M. Gandhi spent most of his life spreading Peace for unity whereas Mujib was a accidental leader without any leadership skill.
> 
> General Zia have more contribution to today's modern Bangladesh than so called Bongo bandu.



Hey man you the one running all kind of BS here. Just keep things civic when you respond to my post. Unless this is my last response to any of your post.
Mujib did not bring any misery to East Pakistan rather he spent more than half of his life in Jail. Mujib was not accidental leader and for his entire life he was in Politics. He did not have any day job except 3 yrs.
General Zia also a Hero of Bangladesh and was a successfull president.


----------



## Al-zakir

iajdani said:


> General Zia also a Hero of Bangladesh and was a successfull president.



Lets agree on that and we are brothers...........

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Al-zakir

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> He was in India - and he reported every single Bangladeshi member who held views such as yours - idune, Al Zakir, yourself - and asked us to investigate their identity and ensure they were Bangladeshis.



Another looserrrrrrrrrrrrrr


----------



## Zaheerkhan

Rasel said:


> *It was the Indian Army people who raped a lot of the Bangladeshi Women's. But many of course blamed the Muslim Pakistani Army.
> 
> 1. Indian Army Men used to change the Pak Army Uniforms and put it on there bodies to make Bengalis fool in there eyes they knew who they where. But in the Bengali eyes they where Pakistani Muslims.
> 
> 2. Many Bengalis came in that trick of the Indian Policy.
> 
> 3. Bangladeshis never had a significant proof of that Yahya Khan ever said to kill ''threee million bengalis'' the only truth is that there are some fake links on internet sites which are mostly based against Pakistani Army! And there some books where they say three million Bengalis where Genocied and a lot of raped to. But the Americans are confused wether it's 1 or 3 million who got raped by Indian Army.*





WOW..Just when I thought I have seen it all here  .This guy should try his luck directing bollywood or Lollywood flicks.

O Enlightened one...have mercy on us..we are mere Mortals....


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

iajdani said:


> Seems like Bhutto even did not know what he was doing there. Feel sorry for that guy.



If that speech was after the loss of East Pakistan, then his behavior is understandable, as are the sentiments of the people.

It was obviously an event that left deep scars.


----------



## Screaming Skull

Hi,

Can some one rephrase the title of this thread please. Sounds kind a offensive and derogatory. PDF is a place for intellectuals right? So surely some one can come up with a more appropriate title conveying similar or near similar meaning as the present one.

Thnx


----------



## BanglaBhoot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> He was in India - and he reported every single Bangladeshi member who held views such as yours - idune, Al Zakir, yourself - and asked us to investigate their identity and ensure they were Bangladeshis.



How devious can you get? The application of Kautilya tactics on PDF. I wonder if his IP would show whether he was working out of RAW HQ.


----------



## TopCat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If that speech was after the loss of East Pakistan, then his behavior is understandable, as are the sentiments of the people.
> 
> It was obviously an event that left deep scars.



Seemed to me, his first intiontion was to recognizing Bangladesh. Then he carried away as the mob got angry and stood up from their seat. Bhutto for sure was missing Mujib that time.


----------



## BanglaBhoot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If that speech was after the loss of East Pakistan, then his behavior is understandable, as are the sentiments of the people.
> 
> It was obviously an event that left deep scars.



His behaviour to everyone was uniformly vulgar and that is why Gen. Ziaul Haq had him hanged as he had often been the butt of Bhutto's jokes and insults. According to the Yahya Khan affidavit recently published in Bangladesh Bhutto only thought of himself and how to get power at whatever cost.


----------



## Al-zakir

MBI Munshi said:


> How devious can you get? The application of Kautilya tactics on PDF. I wonder if his IP would show whether he was working out of RAW HQ.



Na brother. I don't want to lower down the RAW's intelligence though it is evil genus. He is too ******* dump to be a RAW agent. He is not even qualified enough to be a sweepers in RAW H.Q.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MBI Munshi said:


> His behaviour to everyone was uniformly vulgar and that is why Gen. Ziaul Haq had him hanged as he had often been the butt of Bhutto's jokes and insults. According to the Yahya Khan affidavit recently published in Bangladesh Bhutto only thought of himself and how to get power at whatever cost.



Oh don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting the behavior was appropriate or should be condoned, just that the context was, from Pakistan's perspective, the tragedy of East Pakistan's separation.

I personally am no fan of Bhutto's - for all his secular facade, he brought about some draconian restrictions on minorities in a bid to please the religious right, and set back Pakistan's private sector and economy a huge amount with his nationalization policies.

About his only saving grace is that the he let the nuclear program continue unhindered.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hasnain2009

Bhutto Ruined pakistan's economy, we were one of the best country of world that time in economy, korea, malaysea etc were coming here to study our financial plans, but then bhutto came and masscared our economy by his nationalization policies!


----------



## Zob

this is the disputed video but if you hear him in the beginning he says see what do you want to do with those people who at one time were our brothers who fought alongside us for 1 PAKISTAN.......so that clearly means this speech is after the partition....and that is the time BHUTTO actually came into power to make the decision on behalf of the people!!!! 


i hope none of my BENGALI friend is offended you have to look at it in the context of time.......


----------



## Skeptic

Zob said:


> z6ZOo5q-3LM[/media] - Zulfiqar ali bhutto's speech
> 
> this is the disputed video but if you hear him in the beginning he says see what do you want to do with those people who at one time were our brothers who fought alongside us for 1 PAKISTAN.......so that clearly means this speech is after the partition....and that is the time BHUTTO actually came into power to make the decision on behalf of the people!!!!
> 
> 
> i hope none of my BENGALI friend is offended you have to look at it in the context of time.......



I have already posted the same video her:http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/26732-atrocities-1971-civil-war-6.html#post385611

And with the same conclusions, that it was sometime immediately after formation of Bangladesh.


----------



## Zob

arite skeptic didn't know....but ya i hope this makes it clear for my bengali friends who thought that bhutto called them swines before the seperation.....


----------



## TopCat

Audio is bad.. a bad translation is there .. Sheikh mujibs speech


----------



## TopCat

Vidieo is good but not complete


----------



## TopCat

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Both are same speech...


----------



## Always Neutral

iajdani said:


> 3sKcC_YqzTo[/media] - 7 March, 1971- Speech of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman
> 
> 
> Audio is bad.. a bad translation is there .. Sheikh mujibs speech



I think this video exposes the mis-information of the likes of Zob & Zakirs posting here on this forum, that Bhutto became bitter only after the creation of Bangladesh. Infact none of the rulers of West Pakistan including Bhutto had any love lost for the Bangladeshis even before Nov 1971.

Sorry Zob once again you are wrong.

Regards


----------



## Zob

Always Neutral said:


> I think this video exposes the mis-information of the likes of Zob & Zakirs posting here on this forum, that Bhutto became bitter only after the creation of Bangladesh. Infact none of the rulers of West Pakistan including Bhutto had any love lost for the Bangladeshis even before Nov 1971.
> 
> *Sorry Zob once again you are wrong.*
> 
> Regards



ok i haven't watched the video but will surely do.... but what the HELL do you mean by once again you are WRONG????


----------



## Always Neutral

Zob said:


> ok i haven't watched the video but will surely do.... but what the HELL do you mean by once again you are WRONG????



I watched the English translation. Mr. Mujib traces the history of how the West Pakistani leaders including Bhutto were two faced with East Pakistanis over a period of 20 years and even threatened a riot in West Pakistan against them. This video was shot in March 1971 nearly 6 months before the war of liberation, which shows Bhutto hated Bangladesh people even before the war so his statement of calling them pigs was due to his hatered for them since a long time not just due to emotions running high after Bangladesh got its freedom.

Regards


----------



## niaz

I was in Karachi and remember the war period vividly. I can still visualize a Mukti Bahini holding the butchered head of the Deputy Comissioner of Khulna in his hand and scenes of mass murder of Biharis by Mukti Bahini on Dec18, 1971. All published in the international press. 

I met a waiter of an Indian resturant on Baker Street who was son of Bengali mother and Pakistani father, he told me that Mukti Bahini slaughtered his father in front of his very own eyes inside their house. Are we trying to prove who committed more murders?. 

The fact is that there were atrocities committed on both sides. I consider Bangla Deshi my brothers and there are still about a million Bangla Deshi cooks and household servants in Karachi alone.

Don't you think it is about time that we bury the hatchet?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zob

Always Neutral said:


> I watched the English translation. Mr. Mujib traces the history of how the West Pakistani leaders including Bhutto were two faced with East Pakistanis over a period of 20 years and even threatened a riot in West Pakistan against them. This video was shot in March 1971 nearly 6 months before the war of liberation, which shows Bhutto hated Bangladesh people even before the war so his statement of calling them pigs was due to his hatered for them since a long time not just due to emotions running high after Bangladesh got its freedom.
> 
> Regards




yes and i am supposed to believe whatever MUJIB says because he is the next best thing to JESUS....!! 

if the seperation happened it only happened cuz of 2 people BHUTTO & MUJIB if either of them had backed down things would have been alot diffrent.....but it was never MEANT TO BE.....i mean it would have been better if bangladesh was formed at independence and not in 71...... you can't have a country divided by 1000 kms of enemy terriroty.....and i guess modern example is PALESTIAN.....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TopCat

niaz said:


> I was in Karachi and remember the war period vividly. I can still visualize a Mukti Bahini holding the butchered head of the Deputy Comissioner of Khulna in his hand and scenes of mass murder of Biharis by Mukti Bahini on Dec18, 1971. All published in the international press.
> 
> I met a waiter of an Indian resturant on Baker Street who was son of Bengali mother and Pakistani father, he told me that Mukti Bahini slaughtered his father in front of his very own eyes inside their house. Are we trying to prove who committed more murders?.
> 
> The fact is that there were atrocities committed on both sides. I consider Bangla Deshi my brothers and there are still about a million Bangla Deshi cooks and household servants in Karachi alone.
> 
> Don't you think it is about time that we bury the hatchet?



Yes you watched things from Karachi and saw the picture of butchered head. But did you see the picture of Bengali slaughtered in the hand of Army? Did you watch the picture of intellectuals who were dragged out of their home in the middle of night and killed them inside Bihari controlled area? No you did not see any of those because you did not wanted to.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TopCat

Zob said:


> yes and i am supposed to believe whatever MUJIB says because he is the next best thing to JESUS....!!
> 
> if the seperation happened it only happened cuz of 2 people BHUTTO & MUJIB if either of them had backed down things would have been alot diffrent.....but it was never MEANT TO BE.....i mean it would have been better if bangladesh was formed at independence and not in 71...... you can't have a country divided by 1000 kms of enemy terriroty.....and i guess modern example is PALESTIAN.....



He did not say anything which is not written in the history of Pakistan. So you dont have to go to Jesus for the authencity.


----------



## TopCat

Always Neutral said:


> I watched the English translation. Mr. Mujib traces the history of how the West Pakistani leaders including Bhutto were two faced with East Pakistanis over a period of 20 years and even threatened a riot in West Pakistan against them. This video was shot in March 1971 nearly 6 months before the war of liberation, which shows Bhutto hated Bangladesh people even before the war so his statement of calling them pigs was due to his hatered for them since a long time not just due to emotions running high after Bangladesh got its freedom.
> 
> Regards



Mujib in his entire speech had nothing against West Pakistani people. He even cautioned bengalis not to go against any non bengalis in East Pakistan which can bring bad name for the Bengalis. All he had against Martial Law and Army. Any democratically elected leader would have demanded what he demanded there. He wanted Martial law to be lifted and send the Army to the barack.

The translation did not cover all the things in his speech only the major portion. I wish I had a better translation.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

iajdani said:


> Yes you watched things from Karachi and saw the picture of butchered head. But did you see the picture of Bengali slaughtered in the hand of Army? Did you watch the picture of intellectuals who were dragged out of their home in the middle of night and killed them inside Bihari controlled area? No you did not see any of those because you did not wanted to.



I don't think Niaz sahib said that atrocities were only committed by the East Pakistanis - in fact he quite clearly stated that atrocities were committed by both sides, many people have said that.

You are choosing to ignore that part and merely focus on the fact that he pointed out the atrocities committed by the East Pakistani Bengalis. The overwhelming majority of the Pakistanis who have posted on threads such as these have acknowledged that atrocities were committed by both sides, yet some people like you go into a tizzy if a Pakistani points out that there were atrocities committed by your side as well.

That kind of attitude is one that is blindly one sided, discourages a fair analysis of the events by understanding the actions of both sides, and prevents reconciliation.

Bangladesh is not going to be any less of a nation if you acknowledge the sins committed by your people, just as Pakistan has accepted the sins committed by her.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TopCat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't think Niaz sahib said that atrocities were only committed by the East Pakistanis - in fact he quite clearly stated that atrocities were committed by both sides, many people have said that.
> 
> You are choosing to ignore that part and merely focus on the fact that he pointed out the atrocities committed by the East Pakistani Bengalis. The overwhelming majority of the Pakistanis who have posted on threads such as these have acknowledged that atrocities were committed by both sides, yet some people like you go into a tizzy if a Pakistani points out that there were atrocities committed by your side as well.
> 
> That kind of attitude is one that is blindly one sided, discourages a fair analysis of the events by understanding the actions of both sides, and prevents reconciliation.
> 
> Bangladesh is not going to be any less of a nation if you acknowledge the sins committed by your people, just as Pakistan has accepted the sins committed by her.



None of BD members ever said there were no atrocities committed by Mukti's part. But the problem is when PK memebers just want to anhiliate the real facts of 1971 by comparing both side on the same footings and which is not. There were surely some excesses from Bengalis and from overwhelming emotion which is equally regrettable. But those were not planned killing or targetted towards a certain group to anhiliate from the land. Bengalis were victim of targetted killing. It was a common case when Army used to ask people to recite Kalema or Show them whether they are circumcised. If anybody failed on those test, they killed them in point blank.
When PK army was negotiating surrender in the final days, they had people to kill all the intellectuals (teachers, engineers, doctors). They thought BD could never be a real country if there were no more intellectuals. Is this called war or humanity?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Patriot

Sheikh Mujib-ur-Rehman use to tell Bangladeshis that their jute is worth so much, they can all be living in palaces! Balochis were being told by Bughti that they have a sea of oil under Balochistan and they all can get rich! People of East Pakistan got up in arms because they literally could not see beyond their ethnicity. That essentially was the problem in East Pakistan. Otherwise there was just as much corruption in Lahore but i can assure you that no one would ever contemplate taking arms against the state in Lahore.What goes round comes around. In 1971 the East Pakistan Rifles (today's BD Rifles) killed their pro-Pakistan officers (both Bengalis, and non-Bengalis) and few months ago they did the same thing. I have no sympathies for them.No matter what happened in 1971 we must not forget that both sides were at fault. I revisited 1971 incident after BD mutiny to understand what is going on and yes I encountered horrific stories of atrocities commited by both sides.India created a lot of confusion and discord among two brothers but ultimately it was Pakistani government (Dictatorship mind you..a civilian government would have been better) whose policies alienated the entire population. It is not uncommon for mob mentality to develop among our people and the result we all know. Bengali attacking non Bengali and army responding with more force than justified and the downward spiral started.Pakistanis quite frankly have apologized a lot of times and it is the Bdeshis who should apologize now!Our Respected former President was a wise man and that is why he seeked apology from Bangladeshis without mentioning mutual crimes as he really wanted this reconciliation to succeed.Just get over it..No point of pushing the old issues to create more hatred between Bdeshis and Pakistanis.


----------



## TopCat

Huh thats real insightfull. Give me a break.

1) Jute did worth much at that time. Dandi and Calcutta was built on BD's jute. and Jute is the only thing Pakistan had that time.
2) Bengalis could not go above the ethnicity or the West Pakistani could not go above ethnicity? Thats a real question and the answer you should find in Mujib's speech. Minority leader from West had more values than majority leader of East to the then PK govt. You think Bhutto did not know about the army operation in East pakistan?


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Bengalis were victim of targetted killing.



And the Mukit bahini and others just randomly picked out people on the street to lop their heads off?

Don't be absurd - of course the East Pakistani rebels engaged in target killings, both before and after the military action. The Pakistani and allied security forces killed those they suspected of treason - separatism is treason is it not? And the punishment for treason is death in many nations - whether it be an intellectual or an armed rebel - which is not to say that other atrocities and unjustified killings did not take place

As to the scale - given the varying statements issued by the Bangladeshi leadership itself, and doubts raised by other historians, there can be no comparisons of 'scale' unless independent and mutual agreed upon investigations are undertaken to ascertain the truth behind the events of 1971.


----------



## Straight

What sustained this thread so long in this respected and well-moderated forum---despite several cries from members [salman nedian: &#8216;Bas kar do Bas&#8217; ; Hasnain2009: Stop yaar!!]---is yet to be understood. 

Unknown to me the value this thread offers besides (1) spreading further bitterness, and (II) munching on the following wrong theories:

1. IA perpetrated the atrocities and then dumped the accusation on PA.

2. PA is a disciplined Muslim force and never did any atrocity / rape.

*Both above are wrong to the core, and I am an witness as an earliest-batch Freedom Fighter. Why not just read (I) the book &#8220;East Pakistan: The Endgame An Onlooker's Journal 1969-1971&#8221; by Brigadier General A R Siddiqi, the former Chief of Inter Services Public Relations and the former Press Advisor to President Yahya, and (II) Hamudur Rehman Commission Report. *

*Yet if anyone prefers to argue on & on arrogantly, this respected forum should not be the right place.*

May I suggest that this thread is abolished unless someone show effectively the meaningful purpose it will serve. On the other hand, the thread &#8220;Bangladesh urges Pakistan apology for 1971 crimes&#8221; may continue in stead---not as a site for mud-slinging---but to discuss the issue of apology: (I) If required, why in the name of Islam ? (II) Is it required to advance the cause of Union ? If not, why so. Why not 'No Union - No apology' ? (III) Was Gen Musharraf's apology in 2002 enough ? If yes, why ? If not, why ? etc. etc.

Definitely apology is not necessary (I) to respond to BAL Govt. plea, &/or (II) if we are not required to face Allah, and care about 'ummah' and not to look into the issue of Union. 

A dignified person, if done a mistake, has only the ability to make apology. It is not everybody&#8217;s job or issue. If we are &#8216;low category&#8217; people, we could forget &#8216;apology&#8217; as well, and move on our respective selfish paths---good or bad. But we perhaps can not do so as long as both sides belong to ummah & Islam---driving few souls (Al-zakir, Ahmedzaka etc.) in this forum to work for a possible Union to which many others and myself dutifully subscribe. 

*We can not also say that since both the parties have committed atrocities ; so, it is even. Now let us shake our dirty hands, and start working for a Union forthwith. 

Issue of ummah invariably brings the issue of Islam. In Islam---as you all know---good or bad deeds are not counted in numbers but are weighed to determine gravity, density & implications of each deed. A matchbox full of earth will weigh 50 gms but the same of solar surface will weigh 7+ tons. *

Moreover, a publicly committed misdeed require invariably public apology in Islam. 

*Further, it is not atrocity alone but (1) Years of disparity; (2) Denying Sk. Mujib his premiership (3) No strong & effective protest by Pakistani mass during the atrocity period (4) Denial of due share of state-owned assets & liability.*

Surely, we have done serious crimes among ourselves and to Islam too. Before the issue of a possible union proceeds further, we must clean ourselves from the crimes committed to each other and Islam. If one has done more, it has to be admitted and addressed appropriately too. If we can not , we are not capable of taking another chance for the 2nd time for any Union or intimate co-operation. Or are we ?

India has succeeded in maintaining the unity of their much bigger population by doing right things to their people whereas the then-Pakistan has failed. If India as a secular state could maintain satisfactory parity among around 20 states and could transfer state-power several times, *why* we---as Muslims---could not do it even once in 23 years ? Shall we always blame India only for any opportunist role or Should we have the courage and pain to find, admit and aboslve ours, too ?

*Unless we find answer to that &#8216;WHY&#8217; and get our hearts cleaned by &#8216;tears of apology&#8217;, we do not have any great agenda at our hand---at least for the time being and for our new generation.*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Al-zakir

iajdani said:


> Bengalis were victim of targetted killing. It was a common case when Army used to ask people to recite Kalema or Show them whether they are circumcised. If anybody failed on those test, they killed them in point blank.



How could a Muslim failed any of those test? Were the army sorting out Hindus and Islamic name mushrik???


----------



## TopCat

Al-zakir said:


> How could a Muslim failed any of those test? Were the army sorting out Hindus and Islamic name mushrik???



Yes they did, despite those army themselves failed to show them as muslim.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BanglaBhoot

This debate has been going for nearly 40 years why are we still arguing over this? Will my children and my grandchildren (when I have them) have to fight this debate also and show how meaningless and pointless this all is. We know that atrocities and wrong was committed on all sides but when someone tries to show that India was no less a party to all this we have to start from square one all over again. Truly pathetic!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Patriot

Could not agree more.Bangladeshis members come here and rant here about 71.We all say you are our brothers and we're sorry about this (despite the fact that both were equally responsible) and then they start posting full stories and stuff which only incites hatred from Pakistanis.No point of doing this.If you don't want to have ties with Pakistan..ask your government to break diplomatic relations with Pakistan..Quite simple to be honest.Pakistan has always been ready for good relations with Bangladesh.Do you honestly believe current generation of Pakistanis really hate Bangladesh like the way Bdeshis hate us!


----------



## gogbot

Our friendly mod has posted a comment on the 1971 Bangladesh war for freedom.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/13937-christian-province-pakistan-9.html#post617131



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The East Pakistan insurgency had largely been controlled militarily - independence would not have been achieved without Indian military intervention, heck, even the insurgency, instability and unrest would not have gotten to the point it did without covert Indian intervention.




What are Bangladesh peoples view on this.

Since may of you consider India to have only assisted in what was A Bangladesh Issue.

Is this this statement valid.


----------



## TopCat

gogbot said:


> Our friendly mod has posted a comment on the 1971 Bangladesh war for freedom.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/13937-christian-province-pakistan-9.html#post617131
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are Bangladesh peoples view on this.
> 
> Since may of you consider India to have only assisted in what was A Bangladesh Issue.
> 
> Is this this statement valid.



Ya the biggest political party with 100% seat in parliament in East Pakistan declared independence means insurgency to some people is just living in a fools world. Army was broken, civil adminstration broken even diplomatic missions defected. Does that mean insurgency??? Give me a break. 
Yes after 26th of March Bangladesh government seeked help from India, Russia and they were successfull in securing those.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## toxic_pus

In vain, *iajdani*. All in vain. 

You can see some of my conversations with AM, regarding Bangladesh's freedom struggle HERE. Although our topic was slightly different, you will get the idea.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Al-zakir

gogbot said:


> Our friendly mod has posted a comment on the 1971 Bangladesh war for freedom.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/13937-christian-province-pakistan-9.html#post617131
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are Bangladesh peoples view on this.
> 
> Since may of you consider India to have only assisted in what was A Bangladesh Issue.
> 
> Is this this statement valid.



I agree with AgNoStIc MuSliM 

Few Hindu loving mukti could not have achieved nothing if you did not shelter, trained and financed them. Separation of Pakistan has more to do with bharat, anti Islamic elements and traitors joint conspiracy than common east Pakistanis.

Musjib's and his whole family's violent death, mukti being miss treated by most Bangladeshis, death of other awami leaders, killing target of awami leaders, label as bharati dalal and awami out of power most of the time in the history modern Bangladesh proved my theory.


----------



## gogbot

Al-zakir said:


> I agree with AgNoStIc MuSliM
> 
> Few Hindu loving mukti could not have achieved nothing if you did not shelter, trained and financed them. Separation of Pakistan has more to do with bharat, anti Islamic elements and traitors joint conspiracy than common east Pakistanis.
> 
> Musjib's and his whole family's violent death, mukti being miss treated by most Bangladeshis, death of other awami leaders, killing target of awami leaders, label as bharati dalal and awami out of power most of the time in the history modern Bangladesh proved my theory.



then why do you have Bangladesh flag.

If you dont respect the creation of your nation then why do you represent Bangladesh.

You can just choose a Pak flag and go with it.


----------



## Al-zakir

gogbot said:


> then why do you have Bangladesh flag.
> 
> If you dont respect the creation of your nation then why do you represent Bangladesh.
> 
> You can just choose a Pak flag and go with it.



Read this following line again and you would understand.


> Musjib's and his whole family's violent death, mukti being miss treated by most Bangladeshis, death of other awami leaders, killing target of awami leaders, label as bharati dalal and awami out of power most of the time in the history modern Bangladesh proved my theory



And Bangladesh Constitution is Islam based since we Muslim regained sovereignty of Bangladesh from dalal Mujib in 75.


----------



## hembo

Al-zakir said:


> Read this following line again and you would understand.
> 
> And Bangladesh Constitution is Islam based since we Muslim regained sovereignty of Bangladesh from dalal Mujib in 75.



So why don't you declare '75 as your creation year?

I wonder whether the sentiment expressed by the above poster is the common sentiments of the B'deshis or they have a other point of views too. Also, some comes as real confused. They are proud of BD creation but also support BNP/ J-E-I, who had been working to re-associate BD with Pak (may by way of some loose federation). Can some one neutral present the different views of the B'deshis. We all know what the above poster's view, I'm interested in some other views, if any.


----------



## Righteous_Fire

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Whether they hold any weight in the real world is a totally different argument.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The East Pakistan insurgency had largely been controlled militarily - independence would not have been achieved without Indian military intervention, heck, even the insurgency, instability and unrest would not have gotten to the point it did without covert Indian intervention.



 I do not agree, it was not an Insurgency, even after all these years it seems, we have not reconciled with the past, we do not want to admit the disastrous mistakes our own hands committed against our own brethren. 

An "Honest question", Who was more Pakistani?

The West who neither founded the Muslim League, nor was fore front in its Pakistan minded resolutions, or the East? For how many years of its Pre-Pakistan history, was the All India Muslim League mainly a work of the struggle and effort of the East Pakistanis (Bengalis)? 



iajdani said:


> Ya the biggest political party with 100&#37; seat in parliament in East Pakistan declared independence means insurgency to some people is just living in a fools world. Army was broken, civil adminstration broken even diplomatic missions defected. Does that mean insurgency??? Give me a break.
> Yes after 26th of March Bangladesh government seeked help from India, Russia and they were successfull in securing those.



I totally agree, to summarize it all in my own words (please take the time to go through it):

The East Pakistanis created the All India Muslim League from scratch, served as its bastion for years, many of the revolutionary leaders were from there, but when Pakistan came into being, we ditched most of them.

Ignored of basic development and need for decades, we made sure in that time to make them realize how poor and ungrateful they were, how their short stature and dark color didnt look good on us! (the common West Pakistani never felt or said this, for them the Bengalis were true brethren but the elite sure did, and external powers made sure the elite did it for countless years to come)

After being treated like that, they had to liberate themselves from this tyranny, their intent in the beginning was NOT Separation  (Sheikh Mujeeb's statements and Bhutto's are a testament to that) it was political rights and freedom.

Some of our friends (guess for your self) made sure the Army and Elite in the West would make rebels and criminals out of the Bengalis and ..... they did 

and our oldest and dearest friend (India) made sure they make this political rights movement into a strong armed resistance if the need be. (I dont blame the Indians at all, and I dont hate them for it or any other act attributed to them, just answer my question all blind patriots and blind India Haters: If you call them enemy, what else did you expect? ........But the real sad thing is... even after knowing that, did any West Pakistani do anything at all to counter it, to help his Bengali brethren? tend to their pain, their misery, their needs? .........NO 

When due rights are not appreciated, brotherhood changes into contempt, contempt to anger and anger to hatred 

and in times of need, the Bengalis found themselves high and dry under the cold sky ......... and smiling demon looking at them ...... with open arms......







that demon (pakfanboys would love this terminology) gave them arms, ammo and everything that makes war.

The result : A brotherhood broken, a country divided and history separated.......... But what did the West Pakistanis gain out of it? 

the elite who always serve their own power

the people who stood silent while their Bengali brothers suffered.....

its a story written in Blood.

and I find only one criminal in it, the West Pakistani people, Us !!!
*
I have come to this conclusion after studying a great deal about it*, and I ask my Bengali brothers only this:

Please forgive us for the sins that the generations before us committed, those crimes against you, Please find in your hearts the forgiveness, Please forgive us for we were weak, we stood by while you suffered, Please forgive us!

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## leonblack08

East Bengal Regiment soldier revolted after hearing about the "Operation Searchlight".When they heard W Pakistani army were targeting civilians,they mutinied.Mutiny took place at 19th March too,if my memory serves me right.

He is right that without Indian help,our independence was impossible.But another fact is also equally true,after 26th March,United Pakistan was impossible.

And about covert Indian ops,I don't know whether its true or false.What I do know is that the magnitude of these ops are being magnified.Just like we magnified the number "3 million deaths",hence losing credibility.

One has to remember,defected bengali military officers and soldiers fled Pakistan and joined the war.Besides the local East Pakistan Rifles and Pakistan army's East Bengal Regiment took up arms.With arms provided,they were trained enough to fight West Pakistan army,which was in strategically disadvantageous position.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Independence was an illusion , illusion created by external forces

Every thing starts with spread of rumors, and wispers , its called psycalogical warfare that most of ordinary Pakistani were not aware of , and it includes attack on mindset and free thought process. 

After 1965 war , the external forces , and spy agencies were active , and also Pakistan was embargoed with weapons sanction from our you know who FRIEND ... and our fleet was outdated or getting old - so it was hard for us to defence our freedom and our brothers in east - this gave chance to enemy - spies to plant seeds of deceptions


"ALOT of the allegations would start with - WE HEARD ... a news or certain group 
heard a news this was going on - where did they heard the news who told who
becomes lost in translations - its quite possible the same ppl who spread the rumors
were same ones that left bombs and gunned down , ppl in certain villages "

E.g is we see similar strategy being employed in Karachi , target killing etc just a point I am trying to make - most of times these operations are carried out by highly trained spies and other resources whose main purpose is to spread confusion and assit in goals


An Illusion was created that some how, west Pakistan was gaining alot of beef, from deals reality is that East already had rich farm land and highly developed cities , East while had great farming as well had constant problemcs with floods and other issues.

Secondly - roughe leaders were given funds, to launch their polical - destability campaiges by other nations - 

a) How Bangladesh was inferior
b) How they had no trade revenues
c) How they are under privlidged
d) How they can be independent , Free nation 

*A new leader was "created" to incite the schemes and revolts
his job was to spread , lies and polictical seggration issues based on race , the strategy is nothing new.*


British and others used the strategy to divide Ottoman empire. The basic principle of that strategy is to prob up nationationalistic views based on race, and then bring in disrupt to a nation's progress, once the job is done the , "PERSON" normally the political leader is Assasinated - which creates a VOID , and then the SYSTEM install any 
person of choice to rule of the population via Proxy system


*So as far as I know as soon as the "FREEDOM" qoutes , was achived, what happend nothing *

a) Bangali leader was assasinated right after the freedom was achieved 
b) The party the was suppose to be all 4 Bangali people turned out 
to be just someoe who robs the poor in end 
And so call freedom was controlled by Army eventually
c) Bangladesh , has not prospered - since 70's its the same nation it 
was even with all of the "SO Called" REVENUE now it recieved 


WHY DID THE PEOPLE IF EAST PAKISTAN NEVER FOUND THE IDEALS THEY SEEKED , where did all those ppl went who promised the green lush glories , and independence - they were gone their job was done - East Pakistan just became another state , with limited rousources, and unable to make any political statemet on world 

Its done before - its easier to control smaller sized nations then giant natios who spread , across thousads of miles like china or russia - its a global game - 

Same floods come in each year, killing people , and same old misery

In the end it is the Military in Bangladesh that came to power - so all those dreams of democracy and freedoem laid to rest - 

Mean while Pakistan as continued to develop - and to be honest we miss our brothers for east greatly its a sad chapter in our history 


If Indeed , Pakistan was robbing Bangladesh severely - why did they not prosper after the divide , its simple , it was all illusios and stories created to , incite people to revolt - once the job was done the people singing the tunes, and hyping up issues left with their bags in the special operation bags not before getting ride of the old ally - 

Why would they risk all the old friendly contacts being exploited ???


If Pakistan and Pakistan West was together - we would have now been both Nuclear power and by now 1-2 dams were built to solve Bagladeshis flood problems I am 100&#37; sure on that issue.

I think the biggest flaw in the story is the idea that if Bangladesh was formed , some how it would be the biggest greatest nation , but it did not happened, and before people realised that and revolted they were locked down political free speech taken away from them and Army was in charge - 


What every happens All pakistanis still love our brothers from east - 

We see a similar campaign taking place now , in balouchistan but we have Nuclear weapons and lots of fighters its not as, it was before when we had no airforce in East Pakistan - 


Further Read 
Arab Revolt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Displays how race was used as a weapon to divide Ottoma Empire

*Regardless brothers in East Pakista will always be our brothers -*


----------



## TopCat

^^^^^^^^^^^

Good analysis but bit biased.
You are right on this. Yes we did not prosper as expected and the democracy remained illusive till 1990. We had two lost decades 70's and 80's. But BD needed some ground work as we started from scratch after 1971. 

If we set aside discrimination, there were not much work done in human development, birth control or education in 1947-71. So we inherited those drawbacks and the natural disasters. In 1970's cyclone we lost half a million of our people which reduced to quarter million in 1991 similar cyclone and now we can only loose few hundreds. Shelter centers are built, embarkment are in place and we have the finest disaster management and early warning system in the world. Flood is no more a problem for us as we switched our major crops in winter season and 80&#37; of our land is under irrigation. We invented water and salinity tolerant crops which helped us to feed 16 crore people out of this scarce land.
Our 98% kids are going to school now and more girls in high school than boys. We have the second lowest in population growth rate in south asia after srilanka. We buit one of the 5 biggest city in the world. 

We overtook India in textile export this year and compete with chinese in equal footings. We export as much as Pakistan and import half of Pakistan. Our economy now is bigger than combined economy of Srilanka+Nepal+Bhutan+Myanmar. We are the only economy in south asia which has a current account surplus by a healthy amount.

We are the biggest exporter of Jute, Our shipbuilding started putting its mark in the world arena. We are the biggest ship breaker in the world. We will start exporting cars in Europ by 2012. We have the world's biggest textile and footwear industry in Bangladesh. 
We also created the world's biggest NGO's who works not only within our boundary but all accross africa, south asia including Pakistan, china, Afganistan etc. They are self sustaining and not dependent on donor countries.

We invite our W. Pakistani business friends to all our events from Fashion shows to Trade fairs to even in every silly things we do here and we are encouraged by their enthusiasm in participating to the same.

Yet we have a long way to go and we are looking forward to those days. We probably wont be able to do all those goodies if we were with India or with Pakistan. We needed to take care of our own $hit

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## TopCat

Al-zakir said:


> And Bangladesh Constitution is Islam based since we Muslim regained sovereignty of Bangladesh from dalal Mujib in 75.



YOur so called Islamic constitution is declared illegal by high court and it is going to revert back to originals. So keep dreaming.


----------



## idune

iajdani said:


> YOur so called Islamic constitution is declared illegal by high court and it is going to revert back to originals. So keep dreaming.



In all legality this Awami govt will render illegal as election was conducted by an illegal entity by so many count including Fake-ruddin being citizen of another country. Awami govt using AJ office and other means influencing judiciary and posting party loyal judge in different HC benches. Rafique-ul Huq Lawyer who defended Hasina in time of needs already spoken out against Awami pressuring judiciary.


Front Page


----------



## Al-zakir

iajdani said:


> YOur so called Islamic constitution is declared illegal by high court and it is going to revert back to originals. So keep dreaming.



Since when court has the autority to declared constitution is legal or Illegal? It has do be pass in the Parliament and awami leauge sure can do that with their majority however I do not think you guys have the balls to reinstate the 72 constitution in it's original form cause your prime minister and your law minister has said that they will keep "Bismillah" and "Islam" in it's place than naturally question arises how the hell you going to reinstate original secular constituion unless Awami leuge is lying as usual or testing the endurance of bangldeshi tauheedi muslims. 

You heard the phrase. It ain't over until over." Now if your awami government can do that than I personally show you guys some respect otherwise you guys are just pethetic and weak in your Believe.


----------



## TopCat

Al-zakir said:


> *Since when court has the autority to declared constitution is legal or Illegal*? It has do be pass in the Parliament and awami leauge sure can do that with their majority however I do not think you guys have the balls to reinstate the 72 constitution in it's original form cause your prime minister and your law minister has said that they will keep "Bismillah" and "Islam" in it's place than naturally question arises how the hell you going to reinstate original secular constituion unless Awami leuge is lying as usual or testing the endurance of bangldeshi tauheedi muslims.
> 
> You heard the phrase. It ain't over until over." Now if your awami government can do that than I personally show you guys some respect otherwise you guys are just pethetic and weak in your Believe.



Since the constitution is written. The authority is given by the constitution itself.
Bismillah is not part of the constitution so it can remain as is, or I would rather suggest to translate that to Bangla so everybody regardless of religious orientation can say those words. AL says they will not let BNP to do dirty Bismillah politics playing with the sentiment of people. So they are out smarting crook BNP this time.


----------



## Al-zakir

iajdani said:


> Since the constitution is written. The authority is given by the constitution itself.
> Bismillah is not part of the constitution so it can remain as is, or* I would rather suggest to translate that to Bangla so everybody regardless of religious orientation can say those words*. AL says they will not let BNP to do dirty Bismillah politics playing with the sentiment of people. So they are out smarting crook BNP this time.



What kind of Idiot are you? How is it that *Bismillah *and state religion *Islam *is not part of Constitution when it was included in the constitution through series of amendments in the pariliment? You have to delete *Bismillah *and state religion *Islam *if you wish to reinstate original constitution. There is no other way around it. 

Stop being a pethetic double standard losers and implement what you believe like us. 

Perhaps you suggest us to translate surah from quran in bangla to recite in salat as well.(Nauzubillah). You need stop drinking that bharati piss drink before developed massive Kidney failure or perhaps too late.


----------



## TopCat

Al-zakir said:


> *What kind of Idiot are you? *How is it that *Bismillah *and state religion *Islam *is not part of Constitution when it was included in the constitution through series of amendments in the pariliment? You have to delete *Bismillah *and state religion *Islam *if you wish to reinstate original constitution. There is no other way around it.
> 
> Stop being a pethetic double standard losers and implement what you believe like us.
> 
> Perhaps you suggest us to translate surah from quran in bangla to recite in salat as well.(Nauzubillah). You need stop drinking that bharati piss drink before developed massive Kidney failure or perhaps too late.



Watch your mouth dude, as you brag about your familly. Learn how to respect people first then their point views. Its a practice and never be too late to adopt even if you were not raised that way.
Rest no comments... your intellegence dont have that capacity to grab what i said in my post and will not be in any of my subsequent post

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PlanetWarrior

Al-zakir said:


> What kind of Idiot are you? How is it that *Bismillah *and state religion *Islam *is not part of Constitution when it was included in the constitution through series of amendments in the pariliment? You have to delete *Bismillah *and state religion *Islam *if you wish to reinstate original constitution. There is no other way around it.
> 
> Stop being a pethetic double standard losers and implement what you believe like us.
> 
> Perhaps you suggest us to translate surah from quran in bangla to recite in salat as well.(Nauzubillah). *You need stop drinking that bharati piss drink* before developed massive Kidney failure or perhaps too late.



Now now now. Stop it. Promoting our exports I am certain is not permitted on . By the way , if you are based in the USA you may buy our piss drinks at discounted rates at most Walmarts. I am certain that you must still hanker for its taste

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Skies

iajdani said:


> If we set aside discrimination, there were not much work done in human development, birth control or education in 1947-71. So we inherited those drawbacks and the natural disasters. In 1970's cyclone we lost half a million of our people which reduced to quarter million in 1991 similar cyclone and now we can only loose few hundreds. Shelter centers are built, embarkment are in place and we have the finest disaster management and early warning system in the world.



Ya, it's well done but not any big done as these developments are usual with the elapse of times and generations.



> Flood is no more a problem for us as we switched our major crops in winter season and 80&#37; of our land is under irrigation. We invented water and salinity tolerant crops which helped us to feed 16 crore people out of this scarce land.



Well recovered by BD. Also we have very fertile land so we can recover our natural disasters like flood quickly.



> Our 98% kids are going to school now and more girls in high school than boys. We have the second lowest in population growth rate in south asia after srilanka. We buit one of the 5 biggest city in the world.



Ya, it's very well and big done.



> We overtook India in textile export this year and compete with chinese in equal footings. We export as much as Pakistan and import half of Pakistan. Our economy now is bigger than combined economy of Srilanka+Nepal+Bhutan+Myanmar. We are the only economy in south asia which has a current account surplus by a healthy amount.



Ya, it's very well and big done by BD. 
But the problem is I do not feel proud for our garment sectors. Because here we have developed because of our low cost of labor. This not any technological achievement by us. We just invested, imported machine and used our cheap labor. But, of course, that is a excellent work by BD to maintain our garment products up to intentional high quality.



> We are the biggest exporter of Jute, Our shipbuilding started putting its mark in the world arena. We are the biggest ship breaker in the world.



Well done by BD.



> We will start exporting cars in Europ by 2012.



Where you've got this news?



> We have the world's biggest textile and footwear industry in Bangladesh.



Well done by BD.



> We also created the world's biggest NGO's who works not only within our boundary but all accross africa, south asia including Pakistan, china, Afganistan etc. They are self sustaining and not dependent on donor countries.



Great work by BD.



> We invite our W. Pakistani business friends to all our events from Fashion shows to Trade fairs to even in every silly things we do here and we are encouraged by their enthusiasm in participating to the same.



Well done by BD.



> Yet we have a long way to go and we are looking forward to those days. We probably wont be able to do all those goodies if we were with India or with Pakistan.



Not sure about what would happen if we were with Pakistan cos we could be very developed if we were together and could establish a good relation between us. At least, we would not have to face Indian dominance and dependency in this bad way.

But why there is a question to be with India?


----------



## TopCat

brotherbangladesh said:


> Not sure about what would happen if we were with Pakistan cos we could be very developed if we were together and could establish a good relation between us. At least, we would not have to face Indian dominance and dependency in this bad way.


Yes we could in ideal scenario and that was the idea in 1947. Bigger is better. But we had no say in Pakistan affairs as we could not contribute politically, administratively. So we had to depart from Pakistan.


> But why there is a question to be with India?



Because we departed from India in 1947.


----------



## mujib.khan

1. Getting back to the topic, Bengalee elements of Pak military / paramilitary resisted when fired upon. These were the people who trained and led almost the entire youth of Bangladesh who came out to defend their homes and hearth.

2. It would have been silly for Indira's govt not to support the Bangladesh movement for many reasons. One of them is the popular support the Bangladesh cause had gained all over India, but specially among the Bengalees of India. Add to this the golden opportunity to break-up Pakistan, and take revenge of 1965 War. Through this operation India also saught to sort out the extremists / Naxalites, Nagas, Mizos and other separatist movements. Bangladesh leadership in exile was also able to get the support of the Soviet Union thru veteran Communist leader Moni Singh and Socialist leader Muzaffar Ahmed - both of whom were well known to the Soviet Polit Buro; and the Soviets in fact encouraged India to support.

3. The other point is, India had no choice but to support the insurgency and act to reach the final classical phase of such operation by launching conventional war. Otherwise, both Bangladesh and N E India would have faced rise of communist extremism and the tempo of separatist activities would have risen. It seems Pak leaders never seem to have understood these.

4. In the War of Liberation, Bengalee political leaders led by Awami League provided the laison / linkage with Indian leadership, and also internally among various civilian elements. The Bangladesh military officers provided the vital linkage among various fighting groups / subgroups. Where necessary Indian Army laison, communication, artillery fire control officers, etc were provided.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## eastwatch

Al-zakir said:


> I agree with AgNoStIc MuSliM
> 
> Few Hindu loving mukti could not have achieved nothing if you did not shelter, trained and financed them. Separation of Pakistan has more to do with bharat, anti Islamic elements and traitors joint conspiracy than common east Pakistanis.
> 
> Musjib's and his whole family's violent death, mukti being miss treated by most Bangladeshis, death of other awami leaders, killing target of awami leaders, label as bharati dalal and awami out of power most of the time in the history modern Bangladesh proved my theory.


We are a free country and will remain free ferom the clasps of foreigners that include both Pakistan and India. Under what logic you are prescribing a secondary role for the Bangali Muslims? Do not come to this forum with BD flag, you are not fit to be a citizen of a free country.


----------



## Veer

Al-zakir said:


> I agree with AgNoStIc MuSliM
> 
> Few Hindu loving mukti could not have achieved nothing if you did not shelter, trained and financed them. Separation of Pakistan has more to do with bharat, anti Islamic elements and traitors joint conspiracy than common east Pakistanis.
> 
> Musjib's and his whole family's violent death, mukti being miss treated by most Bangladeshis, death of other awami leaders, killing target of awami leaders, label as bharati dalal and awami out of power most of the time in the history modern Bangladesh proved my theory.



*Till few days back i used to amused with you garbage, then i come to know You are not Bengali Muslim* as a Bangladeshi friend replied to your post stating that *you are a Razakar who hate Bangladesh and want it to be become epicenter of terror and undeveloped.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Al-zakir

Veer said:


> *Till few days back i used to amused with you garbage, then i come to know You are not Bengali Muslim* as a Bangladeshi friend replied to your post stating that *you are a Razakar how hate Bangladesh and want it to be become epicenter of terror and undeveloped.*



And what your point. Not everyone in Bangladesh are bharati dalal like awami munafiq that shake hand with Hindus to kill Muslims. Their ill wish of make Bangladesh a Hindu minded state failed in 75 and that is our biggest achievement. 



icysteel said:


> You are right. This al badur- al shams is not a Bangladeshi at all the way he carries him self.. look at the way this satan speaks.



At least I am not bharati hindu dalal. Am I you munafiq.


----------



## mujib.khan

1.Let us not detract from academics. This is an important subject for the people of the subcontinent.

2. However, I wish to clarify this Hindu-Muslim mathematics. 
a. In the total 1971 exodus, around 90 &#37; was Hindu. Of this, only about 10% participated in fighting. In Occupied Bangladesh the Hindu population had come down to literally zero.
b. Of the 10% exodus (Muslims), 90% or more took part in actual fighting.

3. Within Occupied Bangladesh, except Biharis and Jamaat cadres, practically the entire population had become involved in helping the Liberation fighters in some way or the other. Pockets, and even secure areas, were created by the Mukti Bahini practically from the beginning. This shows the resolve and motivation of the Resistance, which had received absolutely no indication from political leadership of things to happen. As such there had been no preparation.

4. Beginning Apr 1971 Teliapara Tea Garden Conference, the Bengalee military officers had managed to raise and train a vast force of regulars as well as irregulars. By Oct practically the entire countryside came under their control. Pak Army had become totally dejected. Some intelligent officers started realizing they had been taken for a ride by a debauched and corrupt leadership who neither understood what "Pakistan" stood for nor cared two figs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gogbot

mujib.khan said:


> 1.Let us not detract from academics. This is an important subject for the people of the subcontinent.
> 
> 2. However, I wish to clarify this Hindu-Muslim mathematics.
> a. In the total 1971 exodus, around 90 % was Hindu. Of this, only about 10% participated in fighting. In Occupied Bangladesh the Hindu population had come down to literally zero.
> b. Of the 10% exodus (Muslims), 90% or more took part in actual fighting.
> 
> 3. Within Occupied Bangladesh, except Biharis and Jamaat cadres, practically the entire population had become involved in helping the Liberation fighters in some way or the other. Pockets, and even secure areas, were created by the Mukti Bahini practically from the beginning. This shows the resolve and motivation of the Resistance, which had received absolutely no indication from political leadership of things to happen. As such there had been no preparation.
> 
> 4. Beginning Apr 1971 Teliapara Tea Garden Conference, the Bengalee military officers had managed to raise and train a vast force of regulars as well as irregulars. By Oct practically the entire countryside came under their control. Pak Army had become totally dejected. Some intelligent officers started realizing they had been taken for a ride by a debauched and corrupt leadership who neither understood what "Pakistan" stood for nor cared two figs.



I am not sure about the validity of those numbers.

But what are you trying to say here



> Some intelligent officers started realizing they had been taken for a ride by a debauched and corrupt leadership who neither understood what "Pakistan" stood for nor cared two figs.


----------



## Skies

Stop *look back* before 2000. There is no benefit at all.

Indians are always interested in these sort of discussions to create *mis-understanding *with their *irreverent logics*.
Convert ur ideas, thinkings, knowledges for the future relation with Pak. If it is not possible good relation with Pakistan then, at least, stop* look back* in past.


----------



## mujib.khan

gogbot said:


> I am not sure about the validity of those numbers.
> 
> But what are you trying to say here


=====
a. I speak from personal knowledge. It is upto anyone to check with those of that generation. It must, however, be said that in an upheaval and din like a total peoples' war, it is impossible to keep precise records / data.

b. I am referring to the corrupt debased Pak military/political leadership of the time. The print media - Pak, Indian and world were full of the amours of Yahya and Co. Even some books of the time written by Pak military officers mention these. I am surprised you didn't know!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TopCat

brotherbangladesh said:


> Stop *look back* before 2000. There is no benefit at all.
> 
> Indians are always interested in these sort of discussions to create *mis-understanding *with their *irreverent logics*.
> Convert ur ideas, thinkings, knowledges for the future relation with Pak. If it is not possible good relation with Pakistan then, at least, stop* look back* in past.



Ya my ex girl friend says the same thing about our relationship.... no wonder.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## eastwatch

brotherbangladesh said:


> Ya, it's well done but not any big done as these developments are usual with the elapse of times and generations.
> 
> Well recovered by BD. Also we have very fertile land so we can recover our natural disasters like flood quickly.


After the devastating cyclone in 1970, President Yahya Khan failed to visit his another Pakistan. No relief materials arrived from Karachi. It came only a few weeks after the foreign relief materials arrived. 

AL seized the opportunity, made this indifference as an election issue and won a lanslide victory. Then, it was not handed over the power, that resulted in the division of Pakistan and creation of Bangladesh.

Language was not an issue at that time, although people of today love to say it. Issue at hand is more important to the voters than an issue of the past. 1970 cyclone was the single most reason that AL won the election.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## blain2

Leaving out all of the emotional issues and agreeing with Eastwatch on the reasons for the East Pakistani feelings against the government in WP, I must say militarily the insurgency was very much under the control of the troops in East Pakistan. Indian invasion is what resulted in West Pakistan's military position becoming compromised.

There were western reporters on the ground throughout the earlier part of 1971 who saw the Army take action against those who had picked up arms and without an exception, where ever Army took action, it consolidated. This is a fact (from historical standpoint) that has been concealed by the fog of all of the other things that went on in East Pakistan in 1971.

Had Indians not invaded, the East Pakistanis could not have come up with a favourable situation on the ground.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TopCat

eastwatch said:


> After the devastating cyclone in 1970, President Yahya Khan failed to visit his another Pakistan. No relief materialsd arrived from Karachi. It came only a few weeks after the foreign relief materials arrived.
> 
> AL seized the opportunity, made the indifference as an election issue and won a lanslide victory. Then, it was not handed over the power, that resulted in the division of Pakistan and creation of Bangladesh.
> 
> Language was not an issue at that time, although people of today love to say it. Issue at hand is more important to the voters than an issue of the past. *1970 cyclone was the single most reason that AL won the election*.




What was the issue of 1954 election when Jukto Front secured 223 out of 237 seats?


----------



## toxic_pus

blain2 said:


> Had Indians not invaded, the East Pakistanis could not have come up with a favourable situation on the ground.


Lets agree with you for the argument's sake. 

Now tell us, after denying the people of East Pakistan their legitimate political right; after suppressing the rebellion of 70 million people through a genocide, where the number of deaths is preceded only by the murderous deeds of Hitler and Pol Pot; after massive defection from armed forces and administrative services, that had left these services devoid of any Bengali representation; how do you suppose you had continued running a part of your country where the entire population was against you. What do you think would have happened if Yahya had actually managed to hang Mujib, by far the most popular leader among the Bengalis? Would you have trusted the Bengalis again? Or could the Bengalis bring themselves to trust the West Pakistanis ever again? Would you have given them their due after their rebellion when, you didn't, couldn't and wouldn't do the same when they were utmost loyal to you?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gromell

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Independence was an illusion , illusion created by external forces
> 
> Every thing starts with spread of rumors, and wispers , its called psycalogical warfare that most of ordinary Pakistani were not aware of , and it includes attack on mindset and free thought process.
> 
> After 1965 war , the external forces , and spy agencies were active , and also Pakistan was embargoed with weapons sanction from our you know who FRIEND ... and our fleet was outdated or getting old - so it was hard for us to defence our freedom and our brothers in east - this gave chance to enemy - spies to plant seeds of deceptions
> 
> 
> "ALOT of the allegations would start with - WE HEARD ... a news or certain group
> heard a news this was going on - where did they heard the news who told who
> becomes lost in translations - its quite possible the same ppl who spread the rumors
> were same ones that left bombs and gunned down , ppl in certain villages "
> 
> E.g is we see similar strategy being employed in Karachi , target killing etc just a point I am trying to make - most of times these operations are carried out by highly trained spies and other resources whose main purpose is to spread confusion and assit in goals
> 
> 
> An Illusion was created that some how, west Pakistan was gaining alot of beef, from deals reality is that East already had rich farm land and highly developed cities , East while had great farming as well had constant problemcs with floods and other issues.
> 
> Secondly - roughe leaders were given funds, to launch their polical - destability campaiges by other nations -
> 
> a) How Bangladesh was inferior
> b) How they had no trade revenues
> c) How they are under privlidged
> d) How they can be independent , Free nation
> 
> *A new leader was "created" to incite the schemes and revolts
> his job was to spread , lies and polictical seggration issues based on race , the strategy is nothing new.*
> 
> 
> British and others used the strategy to divide Ottoman empire. The basic principle of that strategy is to prob up nationationalistic views based on race, and then bring in disrupt to a nation's progress, once the job is done the , "PERSON" normally the political leader is Assasinated - which creates a VOID , and then the SYSTEM install any
> person of choice to rule of the population via Proxy system
> 
> 
> *So as far as I know as soon as the "FREEDOM" qoutes , was achived, what happend nothing *
> 
> a) Bangali leader was assasinated right after the freedom was achieved
> b) The party the was suppose to be all 4 Bangali people turned out
> to be just someoe who robs the poor in end
> And so call freedom was controlled by Army eventually
> c) Bangladesh , has not prospered - since 70's its the same nation it
> was even with all of the "SO Called" REVENUE now it recieved
> 
> 
> WHY DID THE PEOPLE IF EAST PAKISTAN NEVER FOUND THE IDEALS THEY SEEKED , where did all those ppl went who promised the green lush glories , and independence - they were gone their job was done - East Pakistan just became another state , with limited rousources, and unable to make any political statemet on world
> 
> Its done before - its easier to control smaller sized nations then giant natios who spread , across thousads of miles like china or russia - its a global game -
> 
> Same floods come in each year, killing people , and same old misery
> 
> In the end it is the Military in Bangladesh that came to power - so all those dreams of democracy and freedoem laid to rest -
> 
> Mean while Pakistan as continued to develop - and to be honest we miss our brothers for east greatly its a sad chapter in our history
> 
> 
> If Indeed , Pakistan was robbing Bangladesh severely - why did they not prosper after the divide , its simple , it was all illusios and stories created to , incite people to revolt - once the job was done the people singing the tunes, and hyping up issues left with their bags in the special operation bags not before getting ride of the old ally -
> 
> Why would they risk all the old friendly contacts being exploited ???
> 
> 
> If Pakistan and Pakistan West was together - we would have now been both Nuclear power and by now 1-2 dams were built to solve Bagladeshis flood problems I am 100&#37; sure on that issue.
> 
> I think the biggest flaw in the story is the idea that if Bangladesh was formed , some how it would be the biggest greatest nation , but it did not happened, and before people realised that and revolted they were locked down political free speech taken away from them and Army was in charge -
> 
> 
> What every happens All pakistanis still love our brothers from east -
> 
> We see a similar campaign taking place now , in balouchistan but we have Nuclear weapons and lots of fighters its not as, it was before when we had no airforce in East Pakistan -
> 
> 
> Further Read
> Arab Revolt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Displays how race was used as a weapon to divide Ottoma Empire
> 
> *Regardless brothers in East Pakista will always be our brothers -*



Naked propaganda at its best. good job. let me take this opportunity to congratulate you on your marvelous accomplishment in preaching the falsehood and thereby distorting the history.

Even the mighty US army with its NATO force could not suppress the Taliban insurgency and you guys are making up stories here on how Bengali freedom fighters were controlled?! Well Taliban don't enjoy widespread support in Afghanistan while Mukti Bahini enjoyed support of 99% of the population! If it seemed controlled in the middle of the war, it was because of strategy of counterattacking at the end of monsoon season when it will be difficult for Pakistani Army to mobilize in Bangladeshi terrain. It does not take an Erwin Rommel to understand that! Bangladeshi mukti bahini did not have enough trained soldiers and it needed to train the civilians. It needed at least one or two months for that. Those were the months that Pakistani Army believed it had tamed the war. Beside why are you making Indian help such an issue? which war was won without allied support? Muhammad peace be upon him made allies in the war against Quraish. Both world wars were fought with allied helps. Strategic reason might be different between allies but if the primary objective is common then why not?! Any country in India's position would have done the same. Bangladeshis needed help. India provided us with that. Pakistan played immaturely. They paid with the most embarrassing defeat. "East Pakistan insurgency" was never controlled. Infact it was no insurgency to begin with. It was a war of independence. How do I know? Because I am from Bangladesh. Bangladeshis saw what happened, you did not see it. Don't pay attention to those false stories. It might be bad for your health.

Pakistan was indeed robbing and the reason why Bangladesh did not prosper is because the state currency was held by Pakistan in Karachi and it was not returned to Bangladesh. Bangladesh was war torn and even before 71, Pakistan relied on Saudi donation, which was not coming to Bangladesh after 71 because of Pakistani diplomacy. In 70s the price of Jute fell. Jute was the biggest foreign currency earner of Pakistan. Pakistan used that money to industrialize West Pakistan while they kept East Pakistan agricultural and the source of raw material of the country. Obviously after independence Bangladesh did not have the industrial complex to carry on where it left. To complete the recovery process after the war and that too by supporting a fairly large population, it took Bangladesh whole 70s and 80s. Bangladesh is improving now alhamdulillah and its economic growth is better than Pakistan. In fact Bangladesh does not need to beg money from donors like Pakistan was begging in 2009. Pakistan's inflation rate is so high that BD Taka has higher exchange value than PK rupee. and How could you forget your PM going to Japan and in other countries raising funds for you to survive in Pakistan? In North America there was this SMS fund raiser for Pakistan. I can't remember Bangladeshis trying to beg for alms like that! 

Why are you talking about floods and the devastation we have to suffer? This is from Allah and did you forget Kashmir Earthquake? beware, your ridicule will come back at you like a boomerang. that's the rule.

Who told you we had highly developed cities and great farming?! that's biggest BS i have ever heard. even to date, we are struggling to keep up our agricultural production and have to constantly import cattle for beef and agricultural products from India. There are very few developed cities now and there were highly developed cities in 1960s?! have you gone insane?

oh here is something that might cheer you up! Bengali leader was assassinated by military guys trained in your west pakistani PMA. 5 of them were just executed by hanging in the last 24 hours. 6 of them are hiding in your Pakistan. I congratulate you again, on giving asylum to bunch of killers who killed not only a great leader but his 7 year old son, pregnant daughter in law and another daughter in law who had been married for just 2 months. Great job again. Allah subhanawata'ala will pay you people what is due for this activity in the after life inshAllah. and finally, this assassination was planned by ISI and CIA. You were fuming about Indian intelligence activity in 71. Well you guys are not bad either! your specialty is plotting to kill women and children. hmm...not bad. 
beside why are you looking at ISI mission in Bangladesh? In assassinating political leaders, you guys have far more experience in your own land.

in 1971, You heard, your army committed and we suffered and experienced. we did not hear about it, we saw it happening infront of our eyes, we experienced it. 

Pakistan's nuclear program was initiated by a Bengali- Hossain Shaheed Suhrawardy. And there is no need to be so proud of your nuclear capability. It was stolen technology, or in more accurate wording it should be called smuggled technology by someone named Abdul Qadir Khan who smuggled the tech from the Netherlands while he was a mere engineer in the facility there. Your nuclear program started with our money. and now you Pakistanis have to assure Indians, USA and Israel that it is in safe hands  and not in Taliban's hand. You have to request them so that they don't take your toys away. 

Your breadth of knowledge shines gloriously when you declare how generous Pakistanis would have been if we were still together and you guys would have built 1 or 2 dams in our river. You have no bloody idea at all about the flood problem in our country. There is more dam in our country than you can ever dream of. There are localities which are situated on the dam. It will take 20 Pakistan to finance half of the necessary dams in our country. and even then there is no guarantee given the geography and climate. We had actually seen enough of those generosity in 1970 Bhola cyclone. Well at that time, Bangladesh was East Pakistan, no?! Where were you guys then? How could the great dam building nation called Pakistan suffer the deadliest tropical cyclone in human history? or was it also Indian spies disguised as storm surge and flood who killed half a million people?

Bangladesh has developed. the donation Bangladesh receives is decreasing while Pakistan's receiving alms is increasing. Again, my heartfelt congratulations! and one thing that you guys did not understand in 71 and even today you are ignorant about it, is what independence truly meant for us. We fought for independence to get away from the munafiki we received from you. Pakistan was never ruled by any real Muslims. It was all fake words of Islamic brotherhood. There existed no brotherhood from your side. You guys could do the worst to us for your benefit. It was in your culture. We needed to get away from you people just to survive, not to be great, big nation. We knew what we were doing and we knew exactly why Indians are aiding us and we wanted it so badly that alhamdulillah we achieved it. Don't feel bad for us. But if you need, we are ready to help you in your bad times. You see, we are no munafiks. As a Muslim, it saddens me to see how unislamically you guys are ruling your country and it is slowly moving towards a failed state. You need donations from Zionists to buy your people food and then spend billions of $(also donation) to buy F-16. You guys have a term "Islamic Republic" before Pakistan and then run some of the largest brothels in south asia and do you know what we call it when our military takes over govt. by suffocating the democracy? "Pakistani Formula" we reckoned no one deserves this honour more than you guys.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Skies

gromell said:


> Bangladesh is improving now alhamdulillah and its economic growth is better than Pakistan. In fact Bangladesh does not need to beg money from donors like Pakistan was begging in 2009. Pakistan's inflation rate is so high that BD Taka has higher exchange value than PK rupee. and How could you forget your PM going to Japan and in other countries raising funds for you to survive in Pakistan? In North America there was this SMS fund raiser for Pakistan. I can't remember Bangladeshis trying to beg for alms like that!


BD does not have to face the situation that currently Pakistan is facing, the war against terrorism, Talibans, conspiracy, threat from other countries etc. Pakistan has to spend a lot for the war going on there now . Have you forgotten that after 1998 flood how much AL begged for donation to the foreign? How much donation AL begged to Clinton during his visit in BD by showing the slums and poor people?



> Pakistan's nuclear program was initiated by a Bengali- Hossain Shaheed Suhrawardy.


Elaborate it with proof as I do not know about it.


> And there is no need to be so proud of your nuclear capability. It was stolen technology, or in more accurate wording it should be called smuggled technology by someone named Abdul Qadir Khan who smuggled the tech from the Netherlands while he was a mere engineer in the facility there. Your nuclear program started with our money.


If someone gets the chance to steal such a tech for military purpose then why he will buy that with lots of money? To me stealing of military tech is legal. And show me some other nation who has built their nuclear tech without help of other nation except USA, Russia, and Japan! And do you think if BD will get the all nuclear tech then BD can use these successfully as it needs to be talent to use it? Remember still there is no nuke plant, what a shame.


> Your breadth of knowledge shines gloriously when you declare how generous Pakistanis would have been if we were still together and you guys would have built 1 or 2 dams in our river.


Kaptai dam




and project (important source of our electricity) was made in Pakistan period. After then how many big dam has built? So do not bull.


> You guys have a term "Islamic Republic" before Pakistan and then run some of the largest brothels in south asia


Say, where it is and how it is the largest in Asia?


> and do you know what we call it when our military takes over govt. by suffocating the democracy? "Pakistani Formula&#8221;



Do not mess up all together. You cannot blame others for ur problem.

**BTW, I won&#8217;t say your post is wholly wrong. But I must accuse you for seeding unfriendly attitude between BD and Pakistan relationship. It's so sick and bad of you that when Pakistanis and we want to build good relation forgetting the past then you busy with you wicked intentions.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## TopCat

brotherbangladesh said:


> BD does not have to face the situation that currently Pakistan is facing, the war against terrorism, Talibans, conspiracy, threat from other countries etc. Pakistan has to spend a lot for the war going on there now . Have you forgotten that after *1998 flood how much AL begged for donation to the foreign? *How much donation AL begged to Clinton during his visit in BD by showing the slums and poor people?



This is the first time when BD did not officially asked for international help. I still remember Hasina's comments that we dont want relief. You are coming up with wrong information all the time.



> If someone gets the chance to steal such a tech for military purpose then why he will buy that with lots of money? To me stealing of military tech is legal. And show me some other nation who has built their nuclear tech without help of other nation except USA, Russia, and Japan! And do you think if BD will get the all nuclear tech then BD can use these successfully as it needs to be talent to use it? Remember still there is no nuke plant, what a shame.



We did not got nuclear as we did not want to. BD built thermo nuclear plant before France in 1962 and it was done by the state government not the central govt.




> Kaptai dam
> 
> 
> 
> and project (important source of our electricity) was made in Pakistan period. After then how many big dam has built? So do not bull.



Irrelevant. We dont have any other river which is feasible for Dam or hydrau electricity.



> Do not mess up all together. You cannot blame others for ur problem.
> 
> **BTW, I won&#8217;t say your post is wholly wrong. But I must accuse you for seeding unfriendly attitude between BD and Pakistan relationship. It's so sick and bad of you that when Pakistanis and we want to build good relation forgetting the past then you busy with you wicked intentions.



We charge a Pakistani $2 for visa processing fee whereas Pakistan charges us $120 dollar if you live in USA. Do your math and dont break your head.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## blain2

toxic_pus said:


> Lets agree with you for the argument's sake.
> 
> Now tell us, after denying the people of East Pakistan their legitimate political right; after suppressing the rebellion of 70 million people through a genocide, where the number of deaths is preceded only by the murderous deeds of Hitler and Pol Pot; after massive defection from armed forces and administrative services, that had left these services devoid of any Bengali representation; how do you suppose you had continued running a part of your country where the entire population was against you. What do you think would have happened if Yahya had actually managed to hang Mujib, by far the most popular leader among the Bengalis? Would you have trusted the Bengalis again? Or could the Bengalis bring themselves to trust the West Pakistanis ever again? Would you have given them their due after their rebellion when, you didn't, couldn't and wouldn't do the same when they were utmost loyal to you?



Number of deaths preceded by Hitler and Pol Pot? Nice one. Not even close is the reality. While I do not deny many East Pakistanis were killed, the number is nowhere even close.

The operations were not genocide. The Army action killed civilians without a doubt, but it was not one to kill off the entire East Pakistani population. So leave off this stretch of imagination with terms like "genocide" because not only are Pakistanis not buying it, the rest of the world also did not agree with this classification and the UN never considered the Pakistani operations or the resulting war in the context of "Genocide".

After you wrote the entire paragraph above, how is it any different than what you have done in Kashmir? At least 70,000 people have died (these are low ball estimates) and you have implemented a military solution to the point you thought you could come up with some semblance of a political structure to be put in place. Pakistan could have very much done the exact same. 

East Pakistanis were not distrusted by all and from the beginning. There were hard-headed people on both sides of the conflict. East Pakistanis would have trusted the West Pakistanis the same way BDs and Pakistanis do things now. Time heals and you get over issues because this is not a personal issue. It was over differences of policies. Mistakes were made by the GoP and that is a realization, but the two people never bore ill-will toward each other (exceptions aside).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## blain2

iajdani said:


> This is the first time when BD did not officially asked for international help. I still remember Hasina's comments that we dont want relief. You are coming up with wrong information all the time.



I know that its quite easy to take swaps at Pakistan's misfortunes to make yourselves feel better, however like India and Pakistan, BD is no different in getting aid and help from all over the world. See this:
USAID: Bangladesh: Links



> We did not got nuclear as we did not want to. BD built thermo nuclear plant before France in 1962 and it was done by the state government not the central govt.



You did not need to because you have no active threat. You have to consider Negative Security Assurances in the case of BD. Pakistan is not so lucky.



> We charge a Pakistani $2 for visa processing fee whereas Pakistan charges us $120 dollar if you live in USA. Do your math and dont break your head.


[/QUOTE]

But Pakistan charges everyone $120 for Visa fees and not Bangladeshis only. Last I checked that was a comparable amount to others.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## blain2

Let me know when Pakistan-bashing is done here so we can move on to something more productive.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TopCat

blain2 said:


> I know that its quite easy to take swaps at Pakistan's misfortunes to make yourselves feel better, however like India and Pakistan, BD is no different in getting aid and help from all over the world. See this:
> USAID: Bangladesh: Links


My comment had nothing to do with Pakistan. I was pointing to a specific false allegation raised by brobangladesh.



> You did not need to because you have no active threat. You have to consider Negative Security Assurances in the case of BD. Pakistan is not so lucky.



I agree, still it was a response to the previous poster.


> But Pakistan charges everyone $120 for Visa fees and not Bangladeshis only. Last I checked that was a comparable amount to others.



Bangladesh does reciprocating charging for visa processing fee. For instance we charge indians $20 dollar because they charge Bangladeshis $20 dollar, Japanese gets it free because they dont charge Bangladeshis. But Pakistan is an exception, we still charge them $2 dollar despite Pakistan charges us $120 dollar. We bend the rule here, didnt we?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## eastwatch

gogbot said:


> I am not sure about the validity of those numbers.
> 
> But what are you trying to say here


Mujib Khan will say his answer, but I think he was stating the figures as they were. Hindus of east Pakistan were more sufferers, but Muslims were more participant at the war of liberation. Probably, the BD Hindus thought the war was basically between two groups of Muslims. Their morale was also down because they were a minority group. So. many of the young Hindus refrained from taking part in the war. Moreover, they could have wanted to domicile in India. Also, to tell you frankly, Hindus in our country do not like to see blood.

Why do you suspect the validity of the figures. All those who participated in the liberation war know the figures are more or less correct.


----------



## gogbot

eastwatch said:


> Mujib Khan will say his answer, but I think he was stating the figures as they were. Hindus of east Pakistan were more sufferers, but Muslims were more participant at the war of liberation. Probably, the BD Hindus thought the war was basically between two groups of Muslims. Their morale was also down because they were a minority group. So. many of the young Hindus refrained from taking part in the war. Moreover, they could have wanted to domicile in India. Also, to tell you frankly, Hindus in our country do not like to see blood.
> 
> Why do you suspect the validity of the figures. All those who participated in the liberation war know the figures are more or less correct.



well there was something about breaking people down to their religion, Making generalizations about their opinions and based on that and then keeping census data on specific religious groups based on that Info, A far to colonial era reminder.

Even if those numbers are valid why anyone would choose to gather and release that Info is beyond. all it does is serve to create a religious divide.

A geographic representation of the numbers would have been better

My opinnion


----------



## toxic_pus

So basically you dont have an answer other than some wishful speculation and some rhetoric. Your attempt at evasion is noted. Your attempt at strawman is noted. Your attempt at distorting history is noted. And you wrote only 4 paragraphs.


blain2 said:


> Number of deaths preceded by Hitler and Pol Pot? Nice one. Not even close is the reality. While I do not deny many East Pakistanis were killed, the number is nowhere even close.
> 
> The operations were not genocide. The Army action killed civilians without a doubt, but it was not one to kill off the entire East Pakistani population. So leave off this stretch of imagination with terms like "genocide" because not only are Pakistanis not buying it, the rest of the world also did not agree with this classification and the UN never considered the Pakistani operations or the resulting war in the context of "Genocide".


Since this is not a debate on number of deaths, I will leave it with one quote from R.J.Rummels, _Death by Government_. 

_Yahya Khan, a name still largely unknown outside of Pakistan and Bangladesh, killed in cold blood proportionally per year more people than Lenin, Stalin, or Mao Tse-tung. Of course, he must bow to Hitler and Pol Pot._ (pg 331; _The Pakistani Cutthroat State_)

To know if the world believes that the army operations qualified as genocide, you will have to read up on some international writers. You might be surprised.


> After you wrote the entire paragraph above, how is it any different than what you have done in Kashmir? At least 70,000 people have died (these are low ball estimates) and you have implemented a military solution to the point you thought you could come up with some semblance of a political structure to be put in place. Pakistan could have very much done the exact same.


How different is it? Well for starter, millions of Kashmiri refugees are not jumping the borders to escape tyrannies of IA. In fact, the minority community has escaped Kashmir vale to escape the freedom fighters. For another, their political leaders are not hounded down, thrown to jail and then killed. They can hold political rallies and remonstrations or even canvass against GoI, as long as they do it peacefully. 

And just so you know, the political structure, that you speak of, as well as civil institutions, was always there, albeit in a weakened form. These have only become stronger in the last decade and a half. India didnt need to implement a military solution to put that political structure in place. In fact India, unlike Pakistan, had never sought a military solution to Kashmir. 

On a side note, not connected to this debate, you seem to approve of military operations until the state is comfortable with the situation. So why fuss about IA in Kashmir. After all you would have done the same in BD, only if you had the opportunity. For that matter, why fuss about US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. 


> East Pakistanis were not distrusted by all and from the beginning. There were hard-headed people on both sides of the conflict.


You really really really need to do some serious reading, only this time, the memoirs of your generals.


> East Pakistanis would have trusted the West Pakistanis the same way BDs and Pakistanis do things now.


Today BDs and Pakistanis do things on their own terms, as citizens of two sovereign nations, independent of each other. Taking this relationship as a scale to measure how the Bengalis of East Pakistan would have trusted West Pakistanis, after the brutal suppression of their demands, is, quiet frankly juvenile. 

Besides, you seem to have missed the more vital question. Would the Pakistanis have ever trusted the Bengalis?


> Time heals and you get over issues because this is not a personal issue. It was over differences of policies. Mistakes were made by the GoP and that is a realization, but the two people never bore ill-will toward each other (exceptions aside).


The problem with most Pakistanis is their tendency to oversimplify things. The differences of policies became personal issues after 25/26 March, 1971 and continue to be so till date.


----------



## gromell

Do you argue against people because they go against the permanent sets of belief you have in your mind or do you actually have proof that they are, in fact, saying something wrong?



brotherbangladesh said:


> BD does not have to face the situation that currently Pakistan is facing, the war against terrorism, Talibans, conspiracy, threat from other countries etc. Pakistan has to spend a lot for the war going on there now . Have you forgotten that after 1998 flood how much AL begged for donation to the foreign? How much donation AL begged to Clinton during his visit in BD by showing the slums and poor people?



You spend in military when you have the money, not necessarily because you ought to spend it. How many of the wars Pakistan fought against India was initiated by India? Pakistan military can spend because USA and Saudi gives them the money to spend. Or did you think Pakistan spends from its own pocket? Did you really believe that?  Even to date, US senate gives billions of $ to Pakistan military. There is a fixed amount of donation USA gives to Pakistan military every year. Now it is okay to spend in military, strengthening country's defence but Pakistan is constantly begging for money to feed its own people! That's hypocrisy. Bangladesh's 1998 flood was a natural calamity, just like recent Kashmir Earthquake in Pakistan. Those are humanitarian crisis, not indicator of the economy during normal days. I never criticized Pakistan's asking for help during Kashmir earthquake! Why are you even bringing that issue?! I was talking about Pakistan's economy almost getting crushed in 2009 and the way Pakistan's post musharraf govt had to go all around the world and ask for money to just feed its people?! Was there any big natural disaster in 2009 in Pakistan? no! it was recession! Did Bangladesh suffer in the same extent? No! That just tells us about the comparative economic health of both the countries. I was answering to the outrageously false post of a Pakistani regarding our economy. All these distress in Pakistan's economy in 2009 did not stop the great Pakistan Army to modernize itself. That's the irony. 



brotherbangladesh said:


> Elaborate it with proof as I do not know about it.



It's a fact, a part of history. When Suhrawardy was PM in 1956, Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission(PAEC) was established. He initiated the plan to build the first civilian nuclear power plant in Karachi. When Ayub Khan came to power, this plan was stalled and only started again in 1966 after indo-pak war. 




brotherbangladesh said:


> If someone gets the chance to steal such a tech for military purpose then why he will buy that with lots of money? To me stealing of military tech is legal. And show me some other nation who has built their nuclear tech without help of other nation except USA, Russia, and Japan! And do you think if BD will get the all nuclear tech then BD can use these successfully as it needs to be talent to use it? Remember still there is no nuke plant, what a shame.



Where did I talk about buying nuclear warhead technology? I did not say acquiring nuclear tech is bad! Where are you getting them from? Read my post and think before jumping to absurd conclusion. The person I was responding to was being unnecessarily arrogant and proud of his country's nuclear capability as if it was invented by them or something while shunning Bangladesh . Do you have any idea how this exercising of nuclear power runs in this world?! If it was just about talent of scientists, then most countries would have nuclear capabilities. Iran could have made nuclear weapon! Even USA's nuclear weapon effort was fueled by German scientists! British, Russians and Americans raced to kidnap german scientists at the end of WW2. why? to accelerate their nuclear capabilities! Bangladesh is not even 40 years old! It is yet to become middle income country and out of everything, having nukes should be its headache? What world do you live in?! And I did not quite get your "having no talent" statement! are you saying Bengalis can't become nuke physicist?! Do you know even the current Indian nuclear research head is a Bengali? There were Bengali physicist and engineers in Pakistan's civilian nuclear research facility. Sheikh Hasina's late hubsand Wazed Mia was one of them. He was the head of Bangladesh's atomic energy commission too. We also have many other prominent nuclear physicist like Dr Ibrahim, brother of Dr Muhammad Yunus. Guys like him could have easily started a nuke program in our country. We just lack the foreign funding that Pakistan received for its strategic research and facilities. Think logically.




brotherbangladesh said:


> Kaptai dam and project (important source of our electricity) was made in Pakistan period. After then how many big dam has built? So do not bull.



Kaptai dam is a hydroelectric project, built to produce electricity. Its primary objective is to produce electricity, not to prevent flood. It was built by Pakistan for Pakistan with Pakistanis money. These Pakistanis included 70 million Bengalis. And during the same time when Kaptai was constructed, there were even larger power generation project happening in west Pakistan. and if you don't know, East Pakistan contributed 70&#37; of the export currency and at least 60% of the GDP. Yet the development in East Pakistan was 30% of the total development in Pakistan. Did you notice the floods happening in Bangladesh? I was talking about flood controlling dam and barrage, not artificial hydro electric dam. I have a feeling I am writing all these for nothing. cause you seem determined not to realize the situation. You are talking about pumped-storage hydroelectricity dam as an example of flood controlling dam? Give me a break! There have been many local dams constructed in Bangladesh after 1971. In Chittagong port area and also in flood prone regions in Southern Bangladesh and also around some of the big rivers. Extensive works have been done. One can't expect Bangladesh to prevent flood like a developed country would for economic and geographic reasons. 



brotherbangladesh said:


> Say, where it is and how it is the largest in Asia?



I said one of the largest. Well there are plenty. There is whole bunch of rings operating in Islamabad and Karachi. The biggest one is in Lahore. Hira Mandi is one of them. There is trafficking of Pashtun and Afghan refugee girls from NWFP to Lahore and other parts of the world. 



brotherbangladesh said:


> **BTW, I won&#8217;t say your post is wholly wrong. But I must accuse you for seeding unfriendly attitude between BD and Pakistan relationship. It's so sick and bad of you that when Pakistanis and we want to build good relation forgetting the past then you busy with you wicked intentions.



so for the sake of good relation, we must erase the history? History is there. Nobody can deny it. If you have done something wrong, then you have to live with it. Future is not the truth, past is. Who is talking about bad relation between Pakistani and Bangladeshis? I have many Pakistani friends. Beside why would you forget the past when according to you Pakistanis were like angels! It is hypocritical of you that once you are defending the Pakistanis and the next moment you are saying "forget the past"! There was no problem on Bengali side to be friends with Pakistanis. And there is no problem now! Pakistanis committed the mistake and now by denying the facts and history, they want to be friends with us?! How could a Bangladeshi be friend with a Pakistani who comes and tells him, " You Bengalis were the culprits of 71, now I forgive you. lets become friends". This situation is precisely described by a Bengali proverb: "Goru mere juta daan".

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Skies

@^Post#44

Even you have *some* logics in you post but it seems u r infected!


----------



## blain2

iajdani said:


> But Pakistan is an exception, we still charge them $2 dollar despite Pakistan charges us $120 dollar. We bend the rule here, didnt we?



Very gracious of your country. We appreciate it.  I think in fairness, we charge everyone the same amount for Visa in the United States. Among other things, US Citizens of Pakistani origin pay close to $200 for getting a Pakistan Origin Card (essentially a Pakistani green card for expatriots). In other words, our Pakistani bureaucracy is expensive across the board for reasons best known to them only.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Al-zakir

iajdani said:


> But Pakistan is an exception, we still charge them *$2* dollar despite Pakistan charges us $120 dollar. We bend the rule here, didnt we?




Are you sure about this figure. We pay $50 for no visa requirment pass yet only 2 for pakistanis.


----------



## blain2

toxic_pus said:


> So basically you don&#8217;t have an answer other than some wishful speculation and some rhetoric. Your attempt at evasion is noted. Your attempt at strawman is noted. Your attempt at distorting history is noted. And you wrote only 4 paragraphs.



Death by writing is not my penchant. Sticking to facts works better.



> Since this is not a debate on number of deaths, I will leave it with one quote from R.J.Rummel&#8217;s, _Death by Government_.
> 
> &#8220;_&#8230;Yahya Khan, a name still largely unknown outside of Pakistan and Bangladesh, killed in cold blood proportionally per year more people than Lenin, Stalin, or Mao Tse-tung. Of course, he must bow to Hitler and Pol Pot._&#8221; (pg 331; _The Pakistani Cutthroat State_)



Unfounded speculation. First you have to agree upon how many were killed. There are speculations from 30,000 all the way up to 3 million. The truth of it was the first casualty of this war since it made sense for East Pakistanis back then and also for the Indian propaganda machinery to talk up the casualties to get support and sympathy from the world. Since you like quoting, let me do that as well with two different sources since one (Dawn) will most likely be negated by you in your duly noted efforts to instigate:

This is an excerpt from the book "The Myth of 3 Million" by Dr. M. Abdul Mumin Chowdhry (a Bangladeshi). Pay attention to the text in bold. Its bloody insane to talk about millions killed which is the common propaganda by the Indian side. He writes:



> On 10th Jan 1972, the very day of his return to Bangladesh from prison in West Pakistan, he, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman publicly announced, 'Three million people have been killed. I believe that there is no parallel in the history of the world of such colossal loss of lives for the struggle for freedom.'
> 
> Yet only on 8 Jan 1972 in London, on his way back to Bangladesh, the same Mujib had claimed that, "one million people had been killed in Bangladesh."
> 
> It was reported that on arrival in Dhaka on 10 Jan 1972 the lobby behind fabrication of the absolutely impossible figure promptly briefed the returning Bangladeshi leader with added "fact" of three hundred thousand women raped, who in turn immediately went on parroting it. Thus the self serving fiction of "three million killed and three hundred thousand women raped" was created.
> 
> As has already been mentioned, according to Col. Akbar Hussain's disclosure in the National Assembly of Bangladesh, the number of claimants (war victims) did not exceed three hundred thousand. But according to Abdul Muhaimin, the Ministry of finance, Government of Bangladesh, had informed him that, only 72,000 claims were received. Of them, relations of 50,000 victims had been awarded the declared sum of money. There had been many bogus claims, even some from Razakars, within those 72,000 applications."
> 
> Whatever be the actual figure, the "victims" whose relations were compensated might not be all victims of Pakistan Army. A large number of refugees, 1.6 million according to one Awami League journalist, died in Indian refugee camps. Those who claimed compensation also included families of many such dead refugees. Besides there were also many false claims.
> 
> Rape Victims. The Bangladesh government opened a number of "Centers for Bangladesh heroines" at Dhaka and other places..
> 
> ...about a hundred of them were given in marriage at various centers. How many heroines were housed at such centres? How and when such centres were closed and what happened to the inmates (has) remained a closely guarded secret up to now...
> 
> *In order to kill three million the Pakistan Army would have had to kill 11,494 persons a day, non-stop from March 26 onwards. If, on the other hand, they were to kill one million people, their daily killing would come to 3,831. Seen in another way, for 60,000 Pakistan Army to kill three million and rape three hundred thousand women, each and every one of them had to kill 50 persons and rape 5 women.*
> 
> Jauhri, a Bangladeshi journalist, wrote: "It is beyond me how three million people could get killed in a guerrilla war of eight month and 21 days. The raping of two hundred thousand women is also beyond my comprehension."



Pay attention to the points about Mujib wanting to reconcile and considering a lose federation with West Pakistan. All was not about people hating each others guts as much as some here would like to believe and constantly propose to drive a wedge.



> Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers -DAWN - National; July 7, 2005
> 
> Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers
> 
> 
> 
> By Anwar Iqbal
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON, July 6: The US State Department&#8217;s newly declassified documents about the 1971 debacle show that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman wanted to have a &#8220;form of confederation&#8221; with Pakistan rather than a separate country. The documents include two telegrams dating Feb 28, 1971 and Dec 23, 1971 &#8220;based on the sentiments of Sheikh Mujib and the then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi,&#8221; showing that Sheikh Mujib was not secessionist, as many in the then West Pakistan believed.
> 
> The telegrams, sent to the State Department by the US embassies in Pakistan and India, document key foreign policy decisions and actions of the administrations of Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford.
> 
> The telegram, entitled &#8220;Conversation with Sheikh Mujibur Rahman,&#8221; shows the path followed by the Awami League leader as he &#8220;talks of excesses by West Pakistan, states he (Mujib) is not willing to share power and does not want separation but rather a form of confederation.&#8221;
> 
> In November 1969, a year before the war began, a US diplomat sent this report to Washington: &#8220;&#8230; East Pakistan, one also senses a growing undercurrent that beyond some intangible point the West Pakistan landlord-civil service-military elite might prefer to see the country split rather than submit to Bengali ascendancy.&#8221;
> 
> One telegram quotes Indira Gandhi as saying that President Nixon has &#8220;misunderstanding about India&#8217;s case&#8221; and that &#8220;there is fantastic nonsense being talked about in the US about our having received promises from the Soviet Union about the Soviet intervention against the seventh fleet and against China.&#8221;
> 
> The documents released on June 28 provide full coverage of the US policy towards India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the newly created state of Bangladesh from January 1969 to December 1972.
> 
> Documents from March to December 1971 include intelligence assessments, key messages from the US embassies in Islamabad and New Delhi and the Consulate General in Dhaka, responses to National Security Study memoranda and full transcripts of the presidential tape recordings that are summarized and excerpted in editorial notes in volume XI.
> 
> The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.
> 
> During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.
> 
> They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.
> 
> Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country&#8217;s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.
> 
> Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.
> 
> Prof Sarmila Bose, an Indian academic, told the seminar that allegations of Pakistani army personnel raping Bengali women were grossly exaggerated.
> 
> Based on her extensive interviews with eyewitnesses, the study also determines the pattern of conflict as three-layered: West Pakistan versus East Pakistan, East Pakistanis (pro-Independence) versus East Pakistanis (pro-Union) and the fateful war between India and Pakistan.
> 
> Prof Bose noted that no neutral study of the conflict has been done and reports that are passed on as part of history are narratives that strengthen one point of view by rubbishing the other. The Bangladeshi narratives, for instance, focus on the rape issue and use that not only to demonize the Pakistan army but also exploit it as a symbol of why it was important to break away from (West) Pakistan.
> 
> Prof Bose, a Bengali herself and belonging to the family of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, emphasized the need for conducting independent studies of the 1971 conflict to bring out the facts.
> 
> She also spoke about the violence generated by all sides. &#8220;The civil war of 1971 was fought between those who believed they were fighting for a united Pakistan and those who believed their chance for justice and progress lay in an independent Bangladesh. Both were legitimate political positions. All parties in this conflict embraced violence as a means to the end, all committed acts of brutality outside accepted norms of warfare, and all had their share of humanity. These attributes make the 1971 conflict particularly suitable for efforts towards reconciliation, rather than recrimination,&#8221; says Prof Bose.





> To know if the world believes that the army &#8216;operations&#8217; qualified as genocide, you will have to read up on some international writers. You might be surprised.



I have seen and read quite a bit from these international writers. They are no different than the ones who were constantly barking and churning out books after books about how great a threat Saddam Hussain was to the world with his nuclear weapons on the basis of queues they got from a government propaganda machinery. In 1971, the Indians did the same thing very successfully running the propaganda war around how millions of East Pakistanis had been killed and how many hundreds and thousands of women had been raped by the Pakistani troops when the logic of it just does not make sense (see Chowdhry's points about the idiocy of these numbers). 

It would be good for all to understand that it was never a desire or the goal of the West Pakistani side to kill East Pakistanis for being East Pakistanis. International writers are outside observers whose comments should be considered while keeping in mind their distant proximity to the conflict and also the fact that they do not understand what us West Pakistanis were thinking. The military action was indeed heavy handed against some civilians and East Pakistani intellectuals and students, yet this in no way was an indication that West Pakistan was out to crush East Pakistani nation.



> How different is it? Well for starter, millions of Kashmiri refugees are not jumping the borders to escape &#8216;tyrannies&#8217; of IA. In fact, the minority community has escaped Kashmir vale to escape the &#8216;freedom fighters&#8217;. For another, their political leaders are not hounded down, thrown to jail and then killed. They can hold political rallies and remonstrations or even canvass against GoI, as long as they do it peacefully.



You must be living in your little world if you think that Kashmiri leaders have not been hunted down. Go back to 87 and start looking at how many leaders have been killed and how many have been detained without due process. In terms of Kashmiri refugees not jumping the border, that is hardly an excuse out of this "genocide" of the Kashmiris by India simply because they would be shot trying to go across the LoC. You do not even give them a chance to leave.

As far as holding political rallies, lets get real here. Every other month people are shot dead in demonstrations. Put under indefinite curfew and what not. And this has been going on since 1987.



> And just so you know, the &#8216;political structure&#8217;, that you speak of, as well as civil institutions, was always there, albeit in a weakened form. These have only become stronger in the last decade and a half. India didn&#8217;t need to implement a &#8216;military solution&#8217; to put that &#8216;political structure&#8217; in place. In fact India, unlike Pakistan, had never sought a &#8216;military solution&#8217; to Kashmir.



Then I must be crazy wondering why 3 Indian Army Corps are based in IoK. It is typical Indian delusion to deny that a military solution has been implemented to keep the Kashmiris in line. The brunt of excesses in the beginning from 1987 were committed by the IA, unfamiliar with how to deal with the situation. When the public opinion and foreign opinion came down hard, then the paramilitaries (RR) were given the charge to execute on the military solution of sorting out the Kashmiris with IA on the back-end. Those who have watched the IA and RR actions and operations know full well that it was a military campaign as any other to put down an insurgency (like the one Pakistan undertook in East Pakistan).




> On a side note, not connected to this debate, you seem to approve of military operations until the state is comfortable with the situation. So why fuss about IA in Kashmir. After all you would have done the same in BD, only if you had the opportunity. For that matter, why fuss about US operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.



I don't approve of it. We are discussing history here and specifically what the situation was on the ground prior to the invasion of EP by India. If there is any duplicity then its on your side since you have no qualms about complaining about the wrongs of the Pakistani side, while you hide your own atrocities against Kashmiris with less than factual points.


> You really really really need to do some serious reading, only this time, the memoirs of your generals.
> 
> Today BDs and Pakistanis do things on their own terms, as citizens of two sovereign nations, independent of each other. Taking this relationship as a scale to measure how the Bengalis of East Pakistan would have trusted West Pakistanis, after the brutal suppression of their demands, is, quiet frankly juvenile.



I am not one to deny that I should always be reading more, but I think I have spent quite a bit of time reading up on this (even had an opportunity to visit the Library of congress once to dig up some of their excellent archives on this topic and having looked at tons of microfiche content from newspapers of the time) aside from printed books.

However what you recommend would go for all including yourself. Do not be so convinced of your side of the story. Realize that time has chipped away at quite a bit of the factual evidence. Malice and hate has driven the facts to the periphery and now there is a ton of hyperbole about this situation that you have to sift through.

Secondly, why are you bringing your moral judgments here and then claiming my stance is immature? Think a little about the title of the topic and my very first post here. The idea was not to talk about the morality of it, as war is never moral. It was just to discuss the situation on the ground (specifically prior to the Indian invasion of East Pakistan). Lets leave the emotions for the other 50 or so threads that have fallen victim to this exact same back and forth. 


> Besides, you seem to have missed the more vital question. Would the Pakistanis have ever trusted the Bengalis?



Not sure why we would not? Something that you may not be able to understand is that Pakistanis have no issues with Bangladeshis. The bone of contention is with regards to a political disagreement 40 years ago which was mistakenly tackled by force. It certainly is not at a personal level.



> The problem with most Pakistanis is their tendency to oversimplify things. The &#8216;differences of policies&#8217; became personal issues after 25/26 March, 1971 and continue to be so till date.



The problem rests with you my friend. Its in some bizarre way in your interest to keep on bringing this up to constantly remind BDs that they need to keep this hate alive for Pakistan. Most of those who were involved (on the three sides) in this mess are dead, or of no consequence any longer. BDs have a country of their own and are doing quite alright last I checked. Lets leave this affair here since the topic has been derailed significantly and I know for a fact that no matter what I write, there is no settling this affair.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DavyJones

@blain - wrong to equate East Pakistan with Kashmir.
Reasons - 
1. IA never killed, maimed and raped to the extent Pak did in East Pakistan and this is a fact - take it or leave it. The level of atrocities is not even close.

2. There was no religious connotation in security forces' action in the early 90s. We are a secular nation. At no point were stupid slogans to kill the Muslims issued. It was taken as a pure law and order problem. People were sensitised that if they did not help the terrorists they were safe.
Compare this to Pak army in EP - All Hindus were terror sympathisers according to them. All intellectuals were jailed or murdered. Bengalis were humiliated by the West Pakistan military.

3. Indian security forces have more boots on the ground. Hence they hold more ground than the Pak forces in EP. Maybe if you had more forces you could have denied insurgents the spaces in the countryside. With it's massive deployment India prevents insurgents from taking over any towns or villages in the countryside.

4. There was no mass refugee situation in Kashmir ever. Why ? Because India never drove people out.

5. Militants sent across by Pak were not successful in attacking Indian security forces and causing them grevious losses.


----------



## blain2

DavyJones said:


> @blain - wrong to equate East Pakistan with Kashmir.
> Reasons -
> 1. IA never killed, maimed and raped to the extent Pak did in East Pakistan and this is a fact - take it or leave it. The level of atrocities is not even close.



An extremely conservative figure on numbers killed in Kashmir is 70,000. Charges of rape are abundant but for obvious reasons you are oblivious to them. I have posted references to EP dead being debated around 30,000 all the way up to 300,000. Someone has to prove to me this millions dead myth which most here are unwilling to do aside from quoting excerpts from Westerners who were at the periphery. Simple logic defies the millions number because of the absurdity of the scale of killing this would come out to. 

On the other hand in Kashmir, IA and RR are responsible for a lot of bloodshed as well and if experts on East Pakistan war can entertain a number of dead around 30,000, then the 70,000 dead in Kashmir are very much comparable. Also the difference between IoK and EP was that in EP, GoP allowed foreign press till the very end to report from and then eventually banned them. IA has NEVER let foreign observers and reporters in to gauge the excesses. There is nothing for me to take from you. 

Even if you agree with the 70,000 number, that is a huge number of people to die since all the Indians are reminding me about the scale and the immorality of killing.




> 2. There was no religious connotation in security forces' action in the early 90s. We are a secular nation. At no point were stupid slogans to kill the Muslims issued. It was taken as a pure law and order problem. People were sensitised that if they did not help the terrorists they were safe.
> Compare this to Pak army in EP - All Hindus were terror sympathisers according to them. All intellectuals were jailed or murdered. Bengalis were humiliated by the West Pakistan military.



And the East Pakistan insurgency and the war were a religious one? Straighten your thoughts out before expressing them.


> 3. Indian security forces have more boots on the ground. Hence they hold more ground than the Pak forces in EP. Maybe if you had more forces you could have denied insurgents the spaces in the countryside. With it's massive deployment India prevents insurgents from taking over any towns or villages in the countryside.



Yes this is the exact military solution I am talking about. Overwhelm the Kashmiris by numbers and force and you have your nice, quiet IoK (in reality not). Militarily and from a CI standpoint, it makes good sense. Pakistan was limited but as I have maintained, prior to the Indian invasion, the CI was yielding situations that were not too challenging for the West Pakistani troops to handle. 



> 4. There was no mass refugee situation in Kashmir ever. Why ? Because India never drove people out.



Have you ever been to the LoC? People from the Indian side cannot cross over. They will be shot trying to do that. Indian forces deployed along the IB and LoC would never allow that because it would seriously undermine Indian goals in Kashmir. The LoC is one of the most heavily militarized regions in the world. IA has it 26th Corps which in terms of divisions and brigades attached is the largest Corps in the world. This is besides two other Corps stationed inside of IoK. Kashmiris in IoK cannot just pick their bags and leave IoK. This is a fact that no amount of glossing can cover.




> 5. Militants sent across by Pak were not successful in attacking Indian security forces and causing them grevious losses.


[/QUOTE]

Not sure what this has anything to do with the discussion on hand? Similarly, during 1971, the EP insurgents were not capable of any significant degradation of the Pakistani military capability in EP prior to the war. So not sure what your point is.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DavyJones

blain2 - the mukti bahani militants were very successful in disrupting Pak comms (I have read a lot about this) 
blain2 -
I have been to the LoC - in fact at the BhimberGali brigade HQ area (where I stayed for a couple of days) in Rajauri district near Mendhar town ( a supposed hot bed of militancy). Saw the LoC fence and the Pak army installations and Pak mosques across the border too! I drove my car all the way there and saw how people are living peacefully along the LoC. They are even involved in helping build army infrastructure. Their children are taught by the Army and the Army also provides them free health care. 
Villagers get the latest DishTV and TataSKY cable connections even in remote areas. They are very happy with the current state of affairs.

Have you been to Kashmir on the Indian side ? If not I would like to host you one day ! Just tell me if you are coming to India and we can drive from Delhi to Srinagar or even Poonch or Rajauri.

About foreign media - there is no restriction on foreign media in Kashmir. Atrocities by Indian forces were widely reported in the foreign press.

Militants crossed over quite regularly during the early 90s - both ways - you must know that - so why not refugees!

70,000 - that include militants, civilians and security forces over a 20 year period! East Pak's figure is for 4-5 months!

Taking my Kashmir visit option instead! It will be fun - it's an amazing place.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TopCat

Al-zakir said:


> Are you sure about this figure. We pay $50 for nor visa requirment pass yet only 2 for pakistanis.




Yes sure.


----------



## Al-zakir

iajdani said:


> Yes sure.



Well in that case it's very generous. Now it's time for our Pakistani bros to act on similar fashion.


----------



## toxic_pus

I see some more strawman , more _non-sequitur_, and more attempt at evasion, deflection and ducking.


blain2 said:


> Sticking to facts works better.


And yet you stick to speculation and shady research works.


> Unfounded speculation. First you have to agree upon how many were killed. There are speculations from 30,000 all the way up to 3 million. The truth of it was the first casualty of this war since it made sense for East Pakistanis back then and also for the Indian propaganda machinery to talk up the casualties to get support and sympathy from the world.


Just word salad. But I see that you have nicely set up your strawman of &#8216;3 million deaths&#8217;, and then defeated it. Well, congratulations. The book that I had recommended earlier, _Death By Government_, pegs the amount at a much lower figure, actually half of that, and yet it surpasses everyone else, except Hitler and Pol Pot. If you had not rushed to reply and actually made an attempt to get hold of the R.J. Rummel&#8217;s work on these figures, you would have saved yourself a lot of typing. And me a headache. 

I made a claim. I supported it. I never claimed &#8216;3 million deaths&#8217; and therefore it is not my burden to either prove or disprove it. Trying to turn this debate into a number game, is a pretty lame attempt at deflection. Duly noted, with much, much amusement.

Just so you know, you haven&#8217;t said anything that I haven&#8217;t already heard. 

Then on second thought, the following passage deserves some attention.


Dr Chowdhuri&#8217 said:


> In order to kill three million the Pakistan Army would have had to kill 11,494 persons a day, non-stop from March 26 onwards. If, on the other hand, they were to kill one million people, their daily killing would come to 3,831. Seen in another way, for 60,000 Pakistan Army to kill three million and rape three hundred thousand women, *each and every one of them had to kill 50 persons and rape 5 women*.


These kind of argument is called _argument from incredulity_. Anyway, you have highlighted the entire passage, but unfortunately didn&#8217;t pay attention to the part which I have now highlighted. How improbable is that figure? Lets assume, only 50&#37; of those 60,000 actually indulged in atrocities. It would mean that they would have to kill 100 persons and rape 10 women in a span of 260 days. In other words, each member of only half the deployed army had to kill just 1 person in 2.5 days and rape 1 woman in 25 days, to achieve that magic number. How incredible is that figure? If we consider all were involved, it results in an even more feasible condition. Each member of PA had to kill 1 person in 5 days, and rape 1 woman in 50 days in a span of 260 days.

Please note, I am not trying to defend the numbers, but trying to make a point, that mathematics of genocide can be tricky.


> Pay attention to the points about Mujib wanting to reconcile and considering a lose federation with West Pakistan. All was not about people hating each others guts as much as some here would like to believe and constantly propose to drive a wedge.


This is an attempt at ducking at best, or sloppiness at worst. You should remember what I had said. Let me quote myself once again.

&#8216;_The &#8216;differences of policies&#8217; became personal issues *after 25/26 March, 1971*&#8230;_&#8217;

I do have the _FRUS_ (Foreign Relations of United States) documents, and I do know exactly what they reveal. That is why I was careful to note the exact date. Next time, please pay attention.


> It would be good for all to understand that it was never a desire or the goal of the West Pakistani side to kill East Pakistanis for being East Pakistanis. International writers are outside observers whose comments should be considered while keeping in mind their distant proximity to the conflict and also the fact that they do not understand what us West Pakistanis were thinking. The military action was indeed heavy handed against some civilians and East Pakistani intellectuals and students, yet this in no way was an indication that West Pakistan was out to crush East Pakistani nation.


So let me see if I got it right. Indians can&#8217;t be trusted. Bangladeshis can&#8217;t be trusted. International writers can&#8217;t be trusted. That is, unless they are all playing your favourite music. In which case, even Pinocchio can be trusted. 

The West Pakistanis&#8217; &#8216;goals&#8217; or &#8216;desires&#8217; are well recorded in the memoirs of the key players like Major General M.I.Karim, Brigadier A.R.Siddiqi, Lt. General Sahibzada Yaqub Khan, Brigadier F.B.Ali and not to mention A.K.Niazi. The infamous &#8216;Scorched Earth&#8217; policy is not exactly a secret anymore. 

The world, my friend, is not blind.


> You must be living in your little world if you think that Kashmiri leaders have not been hunted down. Go back to 87 and start looking at how many leaders have been killed and how many have been detained without due process. In terms of Kashmiri refugees not jumping the border, that is hardly an excuse out of this "genocide" of the Kashmiris by India simply because they would be shot trying to go across the LoC. You do not even give them a chance to leave.
> 
> As far as holding political rallies, lets get real here. Every other month people are shot dead in demonstrations. Put under indefinite curfew and what not. And this has been going on since 1987.


How many political leaders, advocating democratic process have been killed? Your reasoning for why the Kashmiris are not jumping the border doesn&#8217;t fly at all. Fear of death didn&#8217;t stop the East Berliners to jump the barb wires and high walls. Fear of death didn&#8217;t stop 10 million BDs to cross over to India. Fear of death didn&#8217;t stop some of the Kashmiri youths to cross over to Pakistan to take lessons in terrorism. 

Regarding shooting people dead in demonstrations, which part of &#8216;peacefully&#8217; did you not understand?


> Then I must be crazy wondering why 3 Indian Army Corps are based in IoK. It is typical Indian delusion to deny that a military solution has been implemented to keep the Kashmiris in line. The brunt of excesses in the beginning from 1987 were committed by the IA, unfamiliar with how to deal with the situation. When the public opinion and foreign opinion came down hard, then the paramilitaries (RR) were given the charge to execute on the military solution of sorting out the Kashmiris with IA on the back-end. Those who have watched the IA and RR actions and operations know full well that it was a military campaign as any other to put down an insurgency (like the one Pakistan undertook in East Pakistan).


On the contrary, it is another evidence of the usual confused state of mind that Pakistanis continuously suffer from. You are indeed crazy to think that presence of army, in large number implies &#8216;military solution&#8217;. As long as there exists, a political process which is sustained by participation of civil society, or their elected representatives, it can&#8217;t be called &#8216;military solution&#8217;. Military presence, in an insurgency situation, is only meant to supplement this political process, by complementing the civil defense. The civil defense is structured to handle the general law and order problem, and not to handle insurgencies which require an entirely different approach. That is exactly what is been done in Kashmir. Compare that to the situation which existed in East Pakistan, during those tumultuous months of 1971. The political process was completely suspended. In fact the whole thing blew up because of this suspension. The core group of intelligentsia was eliminated within the first week of crackdown. The political leaders were either imprisoned, and awaited gallows, or had to operate from foreign land. The supporters of the biggest political party in that region, were being hunted down like mad dogs. 

You are comparing Bangladesh of 1971 to Kashmir because of superficial similarities, which you will invariably find in almost every insurgency situation, for example large deployment and presence of army or human rights violation by army. But one of the basic and major differences between the two is existence of political process and a will to engage the separatists politically. None was present in East Pakistan during 1971.

Basically this argument itself is a_ non-sequitur_. 


> I don't approve of it. We are discussing history here and specifically what the situation was on the ground prior to the invasion of EP by India. If there is any duplicity then its on your side since you have no qualms about complaining about the wrongs of the Pakistani side, while you hide your own atrocities against Kashmiris with less than factual points.


You perceive, quite wrongly of course, what India is doing in Kashmir is implementation of &#8216;military solution&#8217;. You imply that this is wrong. Yet, you use the example of Kashmir to bolster your argument that BD could have been solved, by doing what you perceive as India is doing in Kashmir. Why? If it is wrong in Kashmir, why would it have been right in BD? Or, if it would have been right in BD, why is then wrong in Kashmir?

My acknowledgement, or lack of it, of &#8216;atrocities&#8217; by IA in Kashmir is inconsequential to this debate, because I am not the one who is using Kashmir as a model to any solution. 


> Secondly, why are you bringing your moral judgments here and then claiming my stance is immature? Think a little about the title of the topic and my very first post here. The idea was not to talk about the morality of it, as war is never moral. It was just to discuss the situation on the ground (specifically prior to the Indian invasion of East Pakistan). Lets leave the emotions for the other 50 or so threads that have fallen victim to this exact same back and forth.


Another attempt to duck. I didn't question morality. I questioned your assertion that BD could be solved militarily. This is the the issue of the thread.


> Not sure why we would not? Something that you may not be able to understand is that Pakistanis have no issues with Bangladeshis. The bone of contention is with regards to a political disagreement 40 years ago which was mistakenly tackled by force. It certainly is not at a personal level.


You still want to cling to that fatuous logic of yours. Whether Pakistanis today have or don&#8217;t have any issue with Bangladeshis is irrelevant. Today, Pakistanis do not have to administer a hostile group of people to their east. Today, Pakistanis and BDs engage as nationals of two sovereign nations, and not as oppressor and oppressed or rulers and subjects or victors and unsuccessful rebels. 

I understand your confusion. You can&#8217;t quite rationalize how a bunch of people who were treated as inferior &#8216;lowly&#8217; people and constantly denied of their rights, could be treated as equal after their fight for equality had been labeled as &#8216;treason&#8217; and then brutally quelled. To think it would have been all hunky dory, just as it is today between the two separate nations, requires a gigantic leap of faith and a complete denial of the issues that actually lead to the rebellion.

I understand, you don&#8217;t have an answer. I will leave you at that.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Windjammer

^^^^^^^
Whatever the issues between East and West Pakistan prevailed was none other than Pakistan's internal matter, however India's hegemonic designs were exposed by the pathetic statement of Mrs. Gandhi in claiming that "Indian forces have entered East Pakistan in self defense"???. Her taste for misadventures brought the reality home and cost her life.


----------



## toxic_pus

Windjammer said:


> ^^^^^^^
> Whatever the issues between East and West Pakistan prevailed was none other than Pakistan's internal matter, however India's hegemonic designs were exposed by the pathetic statement of Mrs. Gandhi in claiming that "Indian forces have entered East Pakistan in self defense"???. Her taste for misadventures brought the reality home and cost her life.


Your usual tripe aside, Ms Gandhi had never said any such thing. At least I am not aware of it. Feel free to provide evidence. Or not.

On the other hand, Indian officials did mention of such thing, something in the lines of, 'India would enter East Pakistan in self-defense'. Its called 'offensive-defensive'. Reference to 'self defense' was with regard to complete destruction of border economy, change in demography due to the deluge of refugees, huge outflow of funds in feeding and maintaining them and potential law and order problem associated with the refugee camps. Since Yahya was refusing to stop butchering his fellow countrymen resulting in perpetuation of such refugee problem, a swift kick in his nuts was thought to be the only way to knock some sense into his dense skull.

The comment encapsulated that strategy.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> I made a claim. I supported it. I never claimed 3 million deaths and therefore it is not my burden to either prove or disprove it. Trying to turn this debate into a number game, is a pretty lame attempt at deflection. Duly noted, with much, much amusement.


You made a claim indeed, yet have offered no support for it. Do you even understand what the definition of genocide is?

Here it is, since you and so many others love throwing the term around to devise a false justification for Indian intervention and Bangladeshi independence.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

Nothing you have provided substantiates the killing of 3 million, 1.5 million, or 300,000 Bengalis deliberately as part of a process to 'exterminate an ethnic group'. You don't want to make this a 'numbers game', great, but as of right now you have no case justifying your allegation of genocide.

Pictures and videos of dozens of dead people lying in a ditch or being put in front of a firing squad for being supporters of violent insurgents attacking non-combatants (terrorism in today's parlance) and treason is not evidence of genocide nor XYZ million killed.

In any case, read the thread topic again. Your disingenuous and lying rants are way off topic. Whether the PA killed X number or not is irrelevant to the fact that the insurgency had been largely controlled militarily and there was little chance of East Pakistan's independence had India not intervened covertly and overtly.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Reference to 'self defense' was with regard to complete destruction of border economy, change in demography due to the deluge of refugees, huge outflow of funds in feeding and maintaining them and potential law and order problem associated with the refugee camps. Since Yahya was refusing to stop butchering his fellow countrymen resulting in perpetuation of such refugee problem, a swift kick in his nuts was thought to be the only way to knock some sense into his dense skull.
> 
> The comment encapsulated that strategy.



Nonsense, Manekshaw's comments, and other accounts by retired Indian bureaucrats etc. indicate covert Indian involvement preceding Operation Searchlight and that Gandhi had decided to go to war long before the refugee issue.

As pointed out to you before, the Indian excuse is absurd given that it tries to justify covert and overt violent intervention in another sovereign nation on the basis of instability, when that intervention itself was part of the cause of the original instability and a major reason behind the escalation in violence and instability in the aftermath of intervention.

Just pure nonsense and lies.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Righteous_Fire said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Whether they hold any weight in the real world is a totally different argument.
> 
> I do not agree, it was not an Insurgency, even after all these years it seems, we have not reconciled with the past, we do not want to admit the disastrous mistakes our own hands committed against our own brethren.


The violent aspect of the political movement in East Pakistan was what? Insurgency? Terrorism perhaps would be a better word.

Per the Hamood-ur-Rehman commission.



> Let it not be forgotten that the initiative in resorting to violence and cruelty was taken by the militants of the Awami League, during the month of March, 1971, following General Yahya Khan's announcement of the 1st of March regarding the postponement of the session of the National Assembly scheduled for the 3rd of March 1971. It will be recalled that from the 1st of March to the 3rd of March 1971, the Awami League had taken complete control of East Pakistan, paralysing the authority of the federal government. There is reliable evidence to show that during this period the miscreants indulged in large scale massacres and rape against pro-Pakistan elements, in the towns of Dacca, Narayanganj, Chittagong, Chandraghona, Rangamati, Khulna, Dinajpur, Ghafargaoa, Kushtia, Ishurdi, Noakhali, Sylhet, Maulvi Bazaar, Rangpur, Saidpur, Jessore, Barisal, Mymensingh, Rajshahi, Pabna, Sirajgonj, Comilla, Brahman Baria, Bogra, Naugaon, Santahar, and several other smaller places.
> 
> 3. Harrowing tales of these atrocities were narrated by the large number of West Pakistanis and Biharis who were able to escape from these places and reach the safety of West Pakistan. For days on end, all through the troubled month of March 1971, swarms of terrorised non-Bengalis lay at the Army-controlled Dacca airport awaiting their turn to be taken to the safety of West Pakistan. Families of West Pakistani officers and other ranks serving with East Bengal units were subjected to inhuman treatment, and a large number of West Pakistani officers were butchered by the erstwhile Bengali colleagues.
> 
> 4. These atrocities were completely blacked out at the time by the Government of Pakistan for fear of retaliation by the Bengalis living in West Pakistan. The Federal Government did issue a White Paper in this behalf in August 1971, but unfortunately it did not create much impact for the reason that it was highly belated, and adequate publicity was not given to it in the national and international press.
> 
> 5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants.
> 
> 6. As far as we can judge, Mr Qutubuddin Aziz has made use of authentic personal accounts furnished by the repatriates whose families, have actually suffered at the hands of the Awami League militants. He has also extensively referred to the contemporary accounts of foreign correspondents then stationed in East Pakistan. The plight of the non-Bengali elements still living in Bangladesh and the insistence of that Government on their large-scale repatriation to Pakistan, are factors which appear to confirm the correctness of the allegations made against the Awami League in this behalf.
> 
> Hamoodur Rehman





> An "Honest question", Who was more Pakistani?
> 
> The West who neither founded the Muslim League, nor was fore front in its Pakistan minded resolutions, or the East? For how many years of its Pre-Pakistan history, was the All India Muslim League mainly a work of the struggle and effort of the East Pakistanis (Bengalis)?
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree, to summarize it all in my own words (please take the time to go through it):
> 
> The East Pakistanis created the All India Muslim League from scratch, served as its bastion for years, many of the revolutionary leaders were from there, but when Pakistan came into being, we ditched most of them.
> 
> Ignored of basic development and need for decades, we made sure in that time to make them realize how poor and ungrateful they were, how their short stature and dark color didnt look good on us! (the common West Pakistani never felt or said this, for them the Bengalis were true brethren but the elite sure did, and external powers made sure the elite did it for countless years to come)
> 
> After being treated like that, they had to liberate themselves from this tyranny, their intent in the beginning was NOT Separation  (Sheikh Mujeeb's statements and Bhutto's are a testament to that) it was political rights and freedom.
> 
> Some of our friends (guess for your self) made sure the Army and Elite in the West would make rebels and criminals out of the Bengalis and ..... they did
> 
> and our oldest and dearest friend (India) made sure they make this political rights movement into a strong armed resistance if the need be. (I dont blame the Indians at all, and I dont hate them for it or any other act attributed to them, just answer my question all blind patriots and blind India Haters: If you call them enemy, what else did you expect? ........But the real sad thing is... even after knowing that, did any West Pakistani do anything at all to counter it, to help his Bengali brethren? tend to their pain, their misery, their needs? .........NO
> 
> When due rights are not appreciated, brotherhood changes into contempt, contempt to anger and anger to hatred
> 
> and in times of need, the Bengalis found themselves high and dry under the cold sky ......... and smiling demon looking at them ...... with open arms......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that demon (pakfanboys would love this terminology) gave them arms, ammo and everything that makes war.
> 
> The result : A brotherhood broken, a country divided and history separated.......... But what did the West Pakistanis gain out of it?
> 
> the elite who always serve their own power
> 
> the people who stood silent while their Bengali brothers suffered.....
> 
> its a story written in Blood.
> 
> and I find only one criminal in it, the West Pakistani people, Us !!!
> *
> I have come to this conclusion after studying a great deal about it*, and I ask my Bengali brothers only this:
> 
> Please forgive us for the sins that the generations before us committed, those crimes against you, Please find in your hearts the forgiveness, Please forgive us for we were weak, we stood by while you suffered, Please forgive us!



Completely irrelevant. The question posed by the thread is clear, 'did the PA have the EP insurgency under control?'.

Every thread on events in 1971 does not have to turn into a Pakistan bashing thread, and every thread on events in EP does not need a regurgitation of what went wrong politically and 'rona dhona' by Pakistanis lamenting this and that.

Stick to the topic next time please, all of you.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Iajdani,

Bangladesh charges different amounts for Visa's from many nations. There are nations on the Embassy list that require no Visa or are charged similarly low amounts.

Embassy of Bangladesh, Washington, DC

South Africa - no fee

Seychelles - no visa required

Mauritania - no visa required

Kenya - no visa required 

Japan - no fee

and the list goes on ..

In any case, I fail to see the relevance here.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ultimate Warrior

blain2 said:


> Death by writing is not my penchant. Sticking to facts works better.
> 
> Unfounded speculation. First you have to agree upon how many were killed. There are speculations from 30,000 all the way up to 3 million.




Brother don't you think even a single killing is condemnable. 

*Moreover the Pakistan which was created claiming to be for Muslims, a heaven for Muslim. The same Muslim army have butchered fellow Muslim citizens.*

You said it is not possible for Pakistani army to alone killed so many Bengali Muslims.

Here you have forget that the density of population.

Also the most importnt role in the kiling along with Pakistani Army 

*The Razakars / Al-Shams / Al-Badr *

Don't distort the facts, even if you realize and ask for forgiveness big hearted Bangladeshi people can forgive you.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ultimate Warrior said:


> Brother don't you think even a single killing is condemnable.
> 
> *Moreover the Pakistan which was created claiming to be for Muslims, a heaven for Muslim. The same Muslim army have butchered fellow Muslim citizens.*
> 
> You said it is not possible for Pakistani army to alone killed so many Bengali Muslims.
> 
> Here you have forget that the density of population.
> 
> Also the most importnt role in the kiling along with Pakistani Army
> 
> *The Razakars / Al-Shams / Al-Badr *
> 
> Don't distort the facts, even if you realize and ask for forgiveness big hearted Bangladeshi people can forgive you.


Insurgencies are nasty and bloody.

How many innocents were killed by the US military and allies in Vietnam?

How many innocents were massacred by Indian security forces in Punjab? We already know the tens of thousands murdered, tortured and raped in Kashmir.

And while you are pontificating about 'even a single killing is condemnable' ponder this excerpt from the Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report:



> The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants.



Recall the earlier definition of genocide - what fits the definition better here: The massacring of West Pakistanis and Biharis by Bengalis primarily for being 'non-Bengali' (and remember this occurred before Op. Searchlight) or the killing of Bengalis in an attempt to control an insurgency?

Where are the demands for apologies to Pakistanis for the atrocities committed upon them? Where are the demands of apologies from India for supporting such murderous hordes and terrorists?

Look to your own sins sir, and stop lying and distorting history. I think in this thread it has been clearly established that no genocide occurred in EP and that the numbers killed were nowhere close to what Indians and some Bangladeshis claim.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You made a claim indeed, yet have offered no support for it. Do you even understand what the definition of genocide is?
> 
> Here it is, since you and so many others love throwing the term around to devise a false justification for Indian intervention and Bangladeshi independence.
> 
> *"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."*
> 
> Nothing you have provided substantiates the killing of 3 million, 1.5 million, or 300,000 Bengalis deliberately as part of a process to 'exterminate an ethnic group'. You don't want to make this a 'numbers game', great, but as of right now you have no case justifying your allegation of genocide.
> 
> Pictures and videos of dozens of dead people lying in a ditch or being put in front of a firing squad for being supporters of violent insurgents attacking non-combatants (terrorism in today's parlance) and treason is not evidence of genocide nor XYZ million killed.
> 
> In any case, read the thread topic again. Your disingenuous and lying rants are way off topic. Whether the PA killed X number or not is irrelevant to the fact that the insurgency had been largely controlled militarily and there was little chance of East Pakistan's independence had India not intervened covertly and overtly.



Weren't the people being killed Bangladeshi 

That was pretty much what the killing was about, Kill all those Bangladeshi people.

Technically it is genocide, because you targeted a people of a certain nationality, and killed both Non Combatants and Combatants.

east Pakistan Had elected AL to power, then west sent it the army. 
East Pakistan declared independence to form the Independent nation of Bangladesh.

Then the Pak Army started Killing all supporters.
And all supporters Were technically No longer Pakistani but Bangladeshi.

It was systematic Genocide.

Here are your so called terrorists.



> Bangladeshi Major Gyass training the Bengali freedom fighters to drive out Pakistani occupation force from Bangladesh.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> Weren't the people being killed Bangladeshi
> 
> That was pretty much what the killing was about, Kill all those Bangladeshi people.
> 
> Technically it is genocide, because you targeted a people of a certain nationality, and killed both Non Combatants and Combatants.
> 
> east Pakistan Had elected AL to power, When west sent it the army.
> East Pakistan declared independence to form the Independent nation of Bangladesh.
> 
> Then the Pak Army started Killing all supporters.
> And all supporters Were technically No longer Pakistani but Bangladeshi.
> 
> It was systematic Genocide.



'Technically' it is not genocide and it is obvious you did not bother to actually comprehend the definition posted.

Since the violent insurgency was primarily Bengali, it is rather obvious that any crackdown against the insurgency would involve largely Bengali deaths, just as in Vietnam it was mostly Vietnamese who were killed, in Indian Punjab it was mostly Punjabis who were killed etc.

Now if the PA was killing Bengalis to exterminate them as an ethnic group (note what Hitler's goals were), then you could argue genocide. That allegation has no evidence backing it up.

By the way, since no one actually wants to comment on the topic, it would appear the assertion is largely correct, that the PA did indeed have the East Pakistan insurgency under control for the most part, and the situation in East Pakistan would not have deteriorated and EP would not have gained independence without Indian intervention.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> Here are your so called terrorists.
> 
> YouTube - 1971 Bangladesh Freedom fight



If they did this:

*"There is reliable evidence to show that during this period the miscreants indulged in large scale massacres and rape against pro-Pakistan elements, in the towns of Dacca, Narayanganj, Chittagong, Chandraghona, Rangamati, Khulna, Dinajpur, Ghafargaoa, Kushtia, Ishurdi, Noakhali, Sylhet, Maulvi Bazaar, Rangpur, Saidpur, Jessore, Barisal, Mymensingh, Rajshahi, Pabna, Sirajgonj, Comilla, Brahman Baria, Bogra, Naugaon, Santahar, and several other smaller places.

3. Harrowing tales of these atrocities were narrated by the large number of West Pakistanis and Biharis who were able to escape from these places and reach the safety of West Pakistan. For days on end, all through the troubled month of March 1971, swarms of terrorised non-Bengalis lay at the Army-controlled Dacca airport awaiting their turn to be taken to the safety of West Pakistan. Families of West Pakistani officers and other ranks serving with East Bengal units were subjected to inhuman treatment, and a large number of West Pakistani officers were butchered by the erstwhile Bengali colleagues.

4. These atrocities were completely blacked out at the time by the Government of Pakistan for fear of retaliation by the Bengalis living in West Pakistan. The Federal Government did issue a White Paper in this behalf in August 1971, but unfortunately it did not create much impact for the reason that it was highly belated, and adequate publicity was not given to it in the national and international press.

5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants."*

Then yes, they were terrorists and barbarians.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 'Technically' it is not genocide and it is obvious you did not bother to actually comprehend the definition posted.
> 
> Since the violent insurgency was primarily Bengali, it is rather obvious that any crackdown against the insurgency would involve largely Bengali deaths, just as in Vietnam it was mostly Vietnamese who were killed, in Indian Punjab it was mostly Punjabis who were killed etc.
> 
> Now if the PA was killing Bengalis to exterminate them as an ethnic group (note what Hitler's goals were), then you could argue genocide. That allegation has no evidence backing it up.
> 
> By the way, since no one actually wants to comment on the topic, it would appear the assertion is largely correct, that the *PA did indeed have the East Pakistan insurgency under control for the most part, and the situation in East Pakistan would not have deteriorated and EP would not have gained independence without Indian intervention.*



Its was not ethnic but National extermination.

You wanted all who saw themselves as Bangladesh people dead.
That's genocide


Yup we all know the kind of controls PA used


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If they did this:
> 
> *"There is reliable evidence to show that during this period the miscreants indulged in large scale massacres and rape against pro-Pakistan elements, in the towns of Dacca, Narayanganj, Chittagong, Chandraghona, Rangamati, Khulna, Dinajpur, Ghafargaoa, Kushtia, Ishurdi, Noakhali, Sylhet, Maulvi Bazaar, Rangpur, Saidpur, Jessore, Barisal, Mymensingh, Rajshahi, Pabna, Sirajgonj, Comilla, Brahman Baria, Bogra, Naugaon, Santahar, and several other smaller places.
> 
> 3. Harrowing tales of these atrocities were narrated by the large number of West Pakistanis and Biharis who were able to escape from these places and reach the safety of West Pakistan. For days on end, all through the troubled month of March 1971, swarms of terrorised non-Bengalis lay at the Army-controlled Dacca airport awaiting their turn to be taken to the safety of West Pakistan. Families of West Pakistani officers and other ranks serving with East Bengal units were subjected to inhuman treatment, and a large number of West Pakistani officers were butchered by the erstwhile Bengali colleagues.
> 
> 4. These atrocities were completely blacked out at the time by the Government of Pakistan for fear of retaliation by the Bengalis living in West Pakistan. The Federal Government did issue a White Paper in this behalf in August 1971, but unfortunately it did not create much impact for the reason that it was highly belated, and adequate publicity was not given to it in the national and international press.
> 
> 5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants."*
> 
> Then yes, they were terrorists and barbarians.



So what your telling me is that Bangladesh was founded by Terrorists, Barbarians and Indian's 

Right, i will just leave it to the Bangladesh members of the forum to give you a far better reply then I ever can.

But i can still


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> Its was not ethnic but National extermination.
> 
> You wanted all who saw themselves as Bangladesh people dead.
> That's genocide
> 
> 
> Yup we all know the kind of controls PA used



Please stop spamming with videos that establish nothing except a few instances of atrocities. What you are arguing is systematic extermination of most Bengalis as an ethnic group, since most would agree that the demand for independence was supported by most Bengalis in EP.

Read the excerpts of the atrocities committed by the East Pakistani militants again. The PA was completely justified in neutralizing all those who were members of such terrorist groups and their supporters. Were atrocities (non-combatants and non-supporters being killed) committed in the pursuit of that objective ? Yes they were, but there is no evidence indicating that they were killed as part of a systematic plan to exterminate all Bengalis, nor is their any evidence indicating that they were killed in the numbers claimed.

Your argument is illogical because, as I pointed out, Indian security forces killing primarily Punjabis and Kashmiris, and US forces killing Vietnamese in Vietnam and Pashtun in Afghanistan is some sort of 'genocide' of those communities.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> So what your telling me is that Bangladesh was founded by Terrorists, Barbarians and Indian's
> 
> Right, i will just leave it to the Bangladesh members of the forum to give you a far better reply then I ever can.



I am telling you that those who committed the atrocities mentioned in my post were terrorists and barbarians. Why do you disagree with that? 

Do you think that over a hundred thousand innocent men, women and children massacred and raped by Bengali militants (before Op Searchlight) in pursuit of a political goal is perfectly acceptable?


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Please stop spamming with videos that establish nothing except a few instances of atrocities. What you are arguing is systematic extermination of most Bengalis as an ethnic group, since most would agree that the demand for independence was supported by most Bengalis in EP.
> 
> Read the excerpts of the atrocities committed by the East Pakistani militants again. The PA was completely justified in neutralizing all those who were members of such terrorist groups and their supporters. Were atrocities (non-combatants and non-supporters being killed) committed in the pursuit of that objective ? Yes they were, but there is no evidence indicating that they were killed as part of a systematic plan to exterminate all Bengalis, nor is their any evidence indicating that they were killed in the numbers claimed.
> 
> Your argument is illogical because, as I pointed out, Indian security forces killing primarily Punjabis and Kashmiris, and US forces killing Vietnamese in Vietnam and Pashtun in Afghanistan is some sort of 'genocide' of those communities.



People can write anything.

I am providing documented video footage.

Its a lot harder to refute Pictures and Video's isn't it


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am telling you that those who committed the atrocities mentioned in my post were terrorists and barbarians. Why do you disagree with that?
> 
> Do you think that over a hundred thousand innocent men, women and children massacred and raped by Bengali militants (before Op Searchlight) in pursuit of a political goal is perfectly acceptable?



It can be classified as mob violence but not Terrorists not Barbarians.

You had oppressed people firing shots in anger. it was not systematic nor was it planned.

Whilst PA was a government Organization with plan that called for a systematic slaughter.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> People can write anything.
> 
> I am providing documented video footage.
> 
> Its a lot harder to refute Pictures and Video's isn't it



No one is suggesting that atrocities did not occur, just as atrocities occurred in Vietnam, Indian Punjab, Iraq and Kashmir - but how do those videos of isolated incidents indicate an attempt to systematically exterminate Bengalis as an ethnic group?

There is plenty of evidence substantiating Hitler's goals of exterminating Jews, the concentration camps and numbers killed - we have nothing like that in the case of EP.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No one is suggesting that atrocities did not occur, just as atrocities occurred in Vietnam, Indian Punjab, Iraq and Kashmir - but how do those videos of isolated incidents indicate an attempt to systematically exterminate Bengalis as an ethnic group?
> 
> There is plenty of evidence substantiating Hitler's goals of exterminating Jews, the concentration camps and numbers killed - we have nothing like that in the case of EP.



Then what is the problem.

Pictures speak a thousand words

Let the members of the forum see the atrocities them selves, Let them look at the picture and watch the footage.

i am merely reminding everyone, That the past is not a book to to re-written as they see fit. 

Some things are more permanent


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> Then what is the problem.
> 
> Pictures speak a thousand words
> 
> Let the members of the forum see the atrocities them selves, Let them look at the picture and watch the footage.
> 
> i am merely reminding everyone, That the past is not a book to to re-written as they see fit.
> 
> Some things are more permanent



The problem is that they do not support the claims being made here, and have been posted on various threads related to EP ad infinitum. I fail to see what purpose they serve by being posted repeatedly other than for flaming and trolling.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Nemesis

> The PA was completely justified in neutralizing all those who were members of such terrorist groups and their supporters. Were atrocities (non-combatants and non-supporters being killed) committed in the pursuit of that objective ? Yes they were, but there is no evidence indicating that they were killed as part of a systematic plan to exterminate all Bengalis, nor is their any evidence indicating that they were killed in the numbers claimed



The PA may or may not be justified in going after the Mukhti Bahani, but explain how was the PA justified in systematically killing Bangladeshi doctors, professors, etc in short targetting the East Pakistani intelligentsia days before Pakistan's surrender? 



> By the way, since no one actually wants to comment on the topic, it would appear the assertion is largely correct, that the PA did indeed have the East Pakistan insurgency under control for the most part, and the situation in East Pakistan would not have deteriorated and EP would not have gained independence without Indian intervention.



The majority of the population, nay, almost all of the population was against West Pakistan and yet you say that EP would not have gained independence without Indian help? Our intervention helped quicken the inevitable. 

Your argument completely negates the policies of the West Pakistani administration which led to popular separatist sentiment and blames everything on India. We may have helped, but Bangladesh became independent because of your policies, not ours.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> It can be classified as mob violence but not Terrorists not Barbarians.
> 
> You had oppressed people firing shots in anger. it was not systematic nor was it planned.
> 
> Whilst PA was a government Organization with plan that called for a systematic slaughter.



One hundred thousand plus people being massacred and raped for belonging to a particular ethnicity all across East Pakistan by a particualr group is not 'mob violence'.

A protest in Dhaka the degenerates into a violent riot is 'mob violence' - this was systematically planned and orchestrated terrorism and barbarism perpetrated upon West Pakistanis, Biharis and supporters of Pakistan.

Were is this plan for 'systematic slaughter'? So far all the evidence indicates that some soldiers and officers were undisciplined and targeted some non-combatants in the process of fighting insurgents and terrorists, not unlike what happened in Indian Punjab, Kashmir and Vietnam.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The problem is that they do not support the claims being made here, and have been posted on various threads related to EP ad infinitum. I fail to see what purpose they serve by being posted repeatedly other than for flaming and trolling.



Information for what else purpose.

We are discussing the Bangladesh liberation war are we not.

Those video's are all concerning that subject.

Some people may need to be reminded, some may have never seen them. They also make the most convincing proof


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> The PA may or may not be justified in going after the Mukhti Bahani, but explain how was the PA justified in systematically killing Bangladeshi doctors, professors, etc in short targetting the East Pakistani intelligentsia days before Pakistan's surrender?


Treason.


> The majority of the population, nay, almost all of the population was against West Pakistan and yet you say that EP would not have gained independence without Indian help? Our intervention helped quicken the inevitable.
> 
> Your argument completely negates the policies of the West Pakistani administration which led to popular separatist sentiment and blames everything on India. We may have helped, but Bangladesh became independent because of your policies, not ours.


Once the violent insurgency was defeated, work on political resolutions would have followed. How that would have panned out or whether it would have been enough is only speculation at this point since it was never given a chance.

But if the African Americans in the US could be co-opted in a political structure after hundreds of years of slavery and segregation (nowhere close to that level of discrimination or atrocities occurred in EP) then why not in EP?

In any case, whether it would have worked or not is complete speculation at this point.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> One hundred thousand plus people being massacred and raped for belonging to a particular ethnicity all across East Pakistan by a particualr group is not 'mob violence'.
> 
> A protest in Dhaka the degenerates into a violent riot is 'mob violence' - this was systematically planned and orchestrated terrorism and barbarism perpetrated upon West Pakistanis, Biharis and supporters of Pakistan.
> 
> Were is this plan for 'systematic slaughter'? So far all the evidence indicates that some soldiers and officers were undisciplined and targeted some non-combatants in the process of fighting insurgents and terrorists, not unlike what happened in Indian Punjab, Kashmir and Vietnam.



How many people died during partition of India and Pak in 1947

1 million Hindu, Muslim , Sikh slaughtered like animals all across the Sub-continent. It was all mob violence.

Bangladesh and Pakistan came apart, are you surprised people are dieing in such large numbers.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> How many people died during partition of India and Pak in 1947
> 
> 1 million Hindu, Muslim , Sikh slaughtered like animals all across the Sub-continent. It was all mob violence.
> 
> Bangladesh and Pakistan came apart, are you surprised people are dieing in such large numbers.


Planned atrocities by militant groups against non-Bengali's - it was terrorism and possibly genocide.

That massacres occurred during partition does not justify the atrocities of Bengali militants in EP.

Why are you so loath to call a spade a spade and accept that what these Bengali militants did was terrorism and barbaric and are contriving poor excuses to justify those atrocities?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> Information for what else purpose.
> 
> We are discussing the Bangladesh liberation war are we not.
> 
> Those video's are all concerning that subject.
> 
> Some people may need to be reminded, some may have never seen them. They also make the most convincing proof



We are actually discussing the point that the PA had the insurgency under control, not the war of 1971. It is some members who insist on talking about everything except the topic.

And this is not a thread for pointless 'information'.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We are actually discussing the point that the PA had the insurgency under control, not the war of 1971. It is some members who insist on talking about everything except the topic.
> 
> And this is not a thread for pointless 'information'.



We are discussing the point that it was never an insurgency but a fight for freedom.

The earliest posts in this thread clearly establish that.

The liberation war of 1971 was between Bangladesh and Pakistan.
The Indo-Pak war of 71 is different


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Planned atrocities by militant groups against non-Bengali's - it was terrorism and possibly genocide.
> 
> That massacres occurred during partition does not justify the atrocities of Bengali militants in EP.
> 
> Why are you so loath to call a spade a spade and accept that what these Bengali militants did was terrorism and barbaric and are contriving poor excuses to justify those atrocities?



They are different.

PA planned a massacre, They had no reason to kill students in a college when they were unarmed.
They were an official organization with checks and balances and yet they did what did, systematically through out the country.

There was no Bengali group created with the specific purpose of Massacring all those who were not Bengali.

There was mob violence.

What PA did was as good as what the British did at Amritsar. except though out the whole nation of Bangladesh.

This sparked an armed struggle, That created the angry mobs. That caused the violence.


----------



## Nemesis

> Treason.



Treason?!! The deliberate killing of civilians is not justifiable under any circumstances, certainly not on the basis of abstract ideas like treason.

Treason against whom? The Pakistani state? The majority of the people didnt want the Pakistani state at that point. So execute them all? 

And treason how? Were they guilty of directly killing PA soldiers? They were civilians who were sympathetic to the cause of independence. By no means a crime that deserves a summary execution. 

The PA killed them because of retribution. PA may not be technically guilty of genocide (According to the term defined by the UN) but it certainly is guilty of deliberate mass murder of civilians. 



> Once the violent insurgency was defeated, work on political resolutions would have followed. How that would have panned out or whether it would have been enough is only speculation at this point since it was never given a chance.



And saying that independence would not have succeeded without Indian help is not speculation? 



> But if the African Americans in the US could be co-opted in a political structure after hundreds of years of slavery and segregation (nowhere close to that level of discrimination or atrocities occurred in EP) then why not in EP?



Different context. 

Once again, blaming India squarely for what happened and negating your policies with the phrase "some mistakes were made" is a disingenuous argument. A popular uprising does not happen unless the population is alienated by the policies of the state. Our propaganda machines were/are not so advanced that we can brain wash an entire people. You made it happen. Not us. We don't need to argue over this, just ask the Bangladeshi members. As someone on this thread said, you have only read about what happened, Bangladesh saw it happen.


----------



## notsuperstitious

> *The Hindus, who account for three-fourths of the refugees and a majority of the dead*, have borne the brunt of the Moslem military's hatred. Even now, Moslem soldiers in East Pakistan will snatch away a man's lungi (sarong) to see if he is circumcised, obligatory for *******; if he is not, it usually means death. Others are simply rounded up and shot. Commented one high U.S. official last week: "It is the most incredible, calculated thing since the days of the Nazis in Poland."



Pakistan: The Ravaging of Golden Bengal -- Printout -- TIME

Not a systematic effort to exterminate a group of people? And all these western reports and even videos, even when the americans were so strongly behind yahya, don't dismiss it as propoganda now.

On topic, we can discuss this endlessly, the civil war was real, it had india's support, its purely speculative to say whether the bengalis would have won without india's help or not, but does it matter? what matters is that the civil war was real, india did not make it happen, india did not ask yahya not to search for people stratnded in cyclone bhola, india did not ask him not to honor the vote, the uprising was the result of that, not india controlled.

blaming india is just failing to take responsibility for your own actions and blaming on the ever so useful 'hindu' again.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> We are discussing the point that it was never an insurgency but a fight for freedom.
> 
> The earliest posts in this thread clearly establish that.
> 
> The liberation war of 1971 was between Bangladesh and Pakistan.
> The Indo-Pak war of 71 is different



Please read the thread title again, the topic is whether or not the PA had the insurgency under control.

The question of whether you want to call the actions of militants in East Pakistan an 'insurgency' or a 'freedom movement' is irrelevant and was brought up by other posters.

However, looking up the definitions of these terms before bandying them about would be helpful:

_Definition of insurgency: An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognised as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognised as belligerents."_

So yes, the violent aspect of the separatist movement in East Pakistan does classify as an insurgency, even if you want to categorize the political aspect of it, or perhaps even the combined politcal-military movement, as a 'freedom movement'.

For the purposes of this discussion the reference is to the militant aspect of the freedom movement which fits in with the definition of 'insurgency', and that is the context in which my original remarks quoted at the beginning of the thread were made.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> They are different.
> 
> PA planned a massacre, They had no reason to kill students in a college when they were unarmed.
> They were an official organization with checks and balances and yet they did what did, systematically through out the country.


The PA did not plan a massacre at the level of the COAS or GHQ (Can you establish that if you believe it to be the case), nor were any of the other atrocities committed planned as a systematic policy of exterminating Bengalis which would imply genocide.

Atrocities were committed (in far lower numbers than claimed as has been illustrated by Blain), but that has been an unfortunate aspect of fighting insurgencies, as can be seen in the case of atrocities committed by the US in Vietnam and Indian Security forces in Punjab and Kashmir.

So unless you are willing to categorize both the US and Indian as also having committed genocide, your argument is flawed.


> There was no Bengali group created with the specific purpose of Massacring all those who were not Bengali.
> 
> There was mob violence.


The report clearly assigns the blame for the massacre of innocent West Pakistanis and Biharis to separatists who engaged in premeditated and calculated violence. 

You cannot call this mob violence since it was not a spontaneous outbreak of violence, just as many of the massacres carried out by militant Sikh groups in Punjab were not 'mob violence' since they were planned and orchestrated systematically, and not just a mob gone haywire.


> What PA did was as good as what the British did at Amritsar. except though out the whole nation of Bangladesh.
> 
> This sparked an armed struggle, That created the angry mobs. That caused the violence.


The report is careful to point out that the massacre of West Pakistanis and Biharis occurred before Operation Searchlight, so your contention (or rather your attempt to excuse terrorism by Bengali militants) is wrong.

What the PA did was crack down on separatists and terrorists (a hundred thousand West Pakistanis had been massacred by then) and in the process some atrocities ocurred, not unlike what the Indian ASecurity forces have done in Punjab and Kashmir, and what the US did in Vietnam.

Insurgencies are by nature hard to combat, since the enemy blends in with the locals and is often supported by locals, and history has shown that not just Pakistan, but other nations too have had many problems in fighting 'clean' COIN campaigns.

That said, there remains absolutely no evidence that the number of those killed by the PA were over tens of thousands, or that the PA engaged in genocide. 

Any interest in actually discussing the thread topic, or shall I take your reluctance to do so as validation of my point that the PA had the East Pakistan insurgency under control militarily were it not for Indian military intervention?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> Treason?!! The deliberate killing of civilians is not justifiable under any circumstances, certainly not on the basis of abstract ideas like treason.
> 
> Treason against whom? The Pakistani state? The majority of the people didnt want the Pakistani state at that point. So execute them all?


Does not matter if the people did not want the Pakistani State, they were legally a part of the Pakistani State, and if they were acting against the Pakistani State they were committing treason and the punishment for treason in many nations is death.



> And treason how? Were they guilty of directly killing PA soldiers? They were civilians who were sympathetic to the cause of independence. By no means a crime that deserves a summary execution.


Treason is not limited to physically fighting the State, but can also encompass support for anti-State elements, espionage etc. and the punishment for such treason is death in many States.


> The PA killed them because of retribution. PA may not be technically guilty of genocide (According to the term defined by the UN) but it certainly is guilty of deliberate mass murder of civilians.


No more guilty than the Indian security forces in Punjab and the IA in Kashmir and the US Military in Vietnam.

When you can be consistent and call the actions of the IA and US Military 'genocide', then I'll be willing to consider the veracity of your argument.


> And saying that independence would not have succeeded without Indian help is not speculation?


No it is not since the reports suggest that the PA was slowly establishing control over East Pakistan and defeating the insurgents and cutting down on insurgent violence. Without India supporting the insurgents and terrorists materially and through training camps established in India, the insurgency would have been controlled even quicker and the situation stabilized quicker. The last straw was direct Indian military intervention. 

Therefore, without Indian military intervention there was no way East Pakistan could have gained independence through force.


> Different context.
> 
> Once again, blaming India squarely for what happened and negating your policies with the phrase "some mistakes were made" is a disingenuous argument. A popular uprising does not happen unless the population is alienated by the policies of the state. Our propaganda machines were/are not so advanced that we can brain wash an entire people. You made it happen. Not us. We don't need to argue over this, just ask the Bangladeshi members. As someone on this thread said, you have only read about what happened, Bangladesh saw it happen.


No situation is analogous to another completely, but the point remains that had Indian not intervened militarily, the violent insurgency would have been subdued and a political process of reconciliation might have taken place, possibly leading to a confederation that Mujib seemed to see as feasible.

And you raise a strawman - at no point have I suggested that the separatist movement did not have local support. What I have argued is that the insurgency was almost under control and independence through violence would have failed were it not for Indian intervention. Whether Pakistan could have taken advantage of that defeat of the insurgency to usher in political reforms and placate the East Pakistani sense of disenfranchisement is something that can never be answered, but given that other nations have done so means that it is not an unfeasible proposition.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You made a claim indeed, yet have offered no support for it. Do you even understand what the definition of genocide is?
> 
> Here it is, since you and so many others love throwing the term around to devise a false justification for Indian intervention and Bangladeshi independence.
> 
> "Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."
> 
> Nothing you have provided substantiates the killing of 3 million, 1.5 million, or 300,000 Bengalis deliberately as part of a process to 'exterminate an ethnic group'. You don't want to make this a 'numbers game', great, but as of right now you have no case justifying your allegation of genocide.
> 
> Pictures and videos of dozens of dead people lying in a ditch or being put in front of a firing squad for being supporters of violent insurgents attacking non-combatants (terrorism in today's parlance) and treason is not evidence of genocide nor XYZ million killed.
> 
> In any case, read the thread topic again. Your disingenuous and lying rants are way off topic. Whether the PA killed X number or not is irrelevant to the fact that the insurgency had been largely controlled militarily and there was little chance of East Pakistan's independence had India not intervened covertly and overtly.


You are being disingenuous, as usual. 

Firstly, the genocide in Bangladesh was not to exterminate a an ethnic group. It was to exterminate a political class and the minorities.

Secondly, I have clearly disclosed my reference. Well, pardon me for not quoting the entire book or an entire chapter from the book. Once again, for your displeasure.

Death By Government by R.J.Rummel. 

R.J.Rummel coined the term democide to mean genocide by Government and applied it to PAs atrocities. An extract. 

_As the soldiers advanced and consolidated control over one district or town after another, atrocities were repeated ad nauseam. Bengalis were spared no torture, no way in which their lives could not be stolen from them. Some accounts seem simply the stuff of propaganda but come from reputable sources or eyewitnesses. In a letter to The Guardian of London, for example, the Reverends John Hastings and John Clapham cite instances of babies tossed in the air and caught on bayonets, women bayoneted vertically, children sliced up like meat, and the heads of others smashed. A correspondent of The Daily Mirror reported from the province that soldiers had buried two boys "in mud that came up past their noses and the crows did the rest."

There was one kind of atrocity that seems unique to the Pakistani army and should be mentioned. According to Newsweek, an army major in the village of Haluaghat announced to assembled Bengalis that blood was needed for wounded soldiers and he requested donors. Apparently those that volunteered donated blood alright - all of it until they died. This murder by blood extraction apparently happened at a number of places.

[...]

Through out the province, the army practiced a simple technique of pacification. As used in Dacca that first horrible day, soldiers would surround a hamlet, village, town, or city block. Then, whether slums or thatched huts or residential houses, they would pour gasoline around the homes, ignite it, and shoot or bayonet people trying to escape the flames._

Or you can refer to War and Secession: Pakistan, India, and the creation of Bangladesh by Sisson & Rose. 

Under the sub-chapter The Military Solution According To Plan, they write: 

_As threats to the interests and values important to the army increased and as expectations for a political settlement that could be trusted, declined, Yahya, under pressure from his army command, chose to pursue a "military solution according to plan." [] The costs of military action would be relatively small, and it would have the positive consequence of "cleaning the political stables'" in the east [] It was to be carried out in such a way as not to alarm India or provoke the Indian army by carrying military operations closer to border areas. Given the above objectives and conditions, Indian military involvement would be difficult to justify and was not considered a serious possibility by the Pakistani command [] The objectives were to neutralize the political power of the Awami League and to re-establish public order. First, the top leadership of the party had to be captured, The second priority was to neutralize its more radical elements, in particular student leaders and organizations and various cultural organisations that advocated a Bengali renaissance.[] Third, the Bengali armed forces had to be disarmed end neutralized._

Or you can refer to Foreign Relations of United States (FRUS)
_we have chosen not to intervene, even morally, on the grounds that the Awami conflict, in which unfortunately the overworked term genocide is applicable, is purely internal matter of a sovereign state._  Telegram from Consul General in Dhaka to US State Department, 6th April, 1971 (FRUS).

One example of PAs planned extermination programme is the Hariharpara massacre. It was one of the many instances that came to be known after the war had ended. Lewis. M. Simmons of Washington Post, reported on 10th Jan, 1972:

_According to eye witnesses, this is what happened: Beginning at sundown each evening, the soldiers dragged the Benglais, men and women, bound together in batches of six and eight, to the Burhiganga river front to be killed. While their executioners loomed above them on a wooden pier they were made to wade out into knee deep water. Then the rifles opened up. And the firing and the screaming shattered the hot night air until dawn. Each morning, village boatmen were forced to bring their high-powered craft into the bloody water and haul the bodies out to midstream, where they were cut loose to drift downriver. Victims were brought to Hariharpara by trucks from other villages, from the East Pakistani capital of Dhaka, eight miles to the north. Their hands tied behind their backs, they were kept prisoners in a large river side warehouse of the Pakistan National Oil Company until their time came to die._

The casualty figure at Hariharpara itself is estimated at around 20,000. Rummel has also narrated this in his book.

I can also post numerous newspaper reports of that time, that appeared in Newsweek, Times, Life, New York Times etc. I can assure you, it wont be pretty. 

Thirdly, I am not the one who started this number game. It was never the scope of my post #33 . It was your good friend *blain2* who have set up this strawman. Direct your frustration to him. And if you were sincere you would have noticed, that I have stayed clear of this and concentrated more on the scope of this thread.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

fateh71 said:


> Pakistan: The Ravaging of Golden Bengal -- Printout -- TIME
> 
> Not a systematic effort to exterminate a group of people? And all these western reports and even videos, even when the americans were so strongly behind yahya, don't dismiss it as propoganda now.


The article is completely anecdotal. I am not denying that atrocities occurred, just that they were in no way genocide in that there was not systematic attempt to exterminate an ethnic group.

In an insurgency the insurgents will hide amongst the civilian population, and given the hundreds of thousands of innocent West Pakistani civilians massacred and raped by Bengali militants in the runup to Operation Searchlight, discipline did slip in the hunt for separatists.


> On topic, we can discuss this endlessly, the civil war was real, it had india's support, its purely speculative to say whether the bengalis would have won without india's help or not, but does it matter? what matters is that the civil war was real, india did not make it happen, india did not ask yahya not to search for people stratnded in cyclone bhola, india did not ask him not to honor the vote, the uprising was the result of that, not india controlled.
> 
> blaming india is just failing to take responsibility for your own actions and blaming on the ever so useful 'hindu' again.


The point being made here is that the indigenous rebel movement was being controlled, and without Indian military intervention there was no way East Pakistan would have gained independence through force, since the rebels were being defeated.

That does not mean the movement for independence would have died down, but that it would have had to take a different route if political reforms and reconciliation were not forthcoming.


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense, Manekshaw's comments, and other accounts by retired Indian bureaucrats etc. indicate covert Indian involvement preceding Operation Searchlight and that Gandhi had decided to go to war long before the refugee issue.
> 
> As pointed out to you before, the Indian excuse is absurd given that it tries to justify covert and overt violent intervention in another sovereign nation on the basis of instability, when that intervention itself was part of the cause of the original instability and a major reason behind the escalation in violence and instability in the aftermath of intervention.
> 
> Just pure nonsense and lies.


You havent provided any evidence what so ever, that India was in any way involved before Operation Searchlight. 

I have also explained the context of Ms Gandhis comments. Whether or not you agree with it is entirely upto you. Couldn't care less.

Rest of your accusation is just garbage  a lullaby that you need to repeat to yourself to feel good and secured.


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Does not matter if the people did not want the Pakistani State, they were legally a part of the Pakistani State, and if they were acting against the Pakistani State they were committing treason and the punishment for treason in many nations is death.
> 
> 
> Treason is not limited to physically fighting the State, but can also encompass support for anti-State elements, espionage etc. and the punishment for such treason is death in many States.


A quick question. When, where and how were these people tried to find out if at all they were involved in anti-state activity ?


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> You are being disingenuous, as usual.
> 
> Firstly, the genocide in Bangladesh was not to exterminate a &#8216;an ethnic group&#8217;. It was to exterminate a political class and the minorities.


Nonsense - if by political group you mean to suggest that the separatists were a political group, then any nation that fights separatists and seeks to eliminate them is committing genocide, and that includes India and the US.

Secondly, were the objective to exterminate the entire political group, Mujib would have been the first casualty, yet he survived the entire war.


You are being disingenuous as usual.


> Secondly, I have clearly disclosed my reference. Well, pardon me for not quoting the entire book or an entire chapter from the book. Once again, for your displeasure.
> 
> Death By Government by R.J.Rummel.
> 
> R.J.Rummel coined the term &#8216;democide&#8217; to mean &#8216;genocide by Government&#8217; and applied it to PA&#8217;s atrocities. An extract.
> 
> &#8216;_As the soldiers advanced and consolidated control over one district or town after another, atrocities were repeated ad nauseam. Bengalis were spared no torture, no way in which their lives could not be stolen from them. Some accounts seem simply the stuff of propaganda but come from reputable sources or eyewitnesses. In a letter to The Guardian of London, for example, the Reverends John Hastings and John Clapham cite instances of babies tossed in the air and caught on bayonets, women bayoneted vertically, children sliced up like meat, and the heads of others smashed. A correspondent of The Daily Mirror reported from the province that soldiers had buried two boys "in mud that came up past their noses and the crows did the rest."
> 
> There was one kind of atrocity that seems unique to the Pakistani army and should be mentioned. According to Newsweek, an army major in the village of Haluaghat announced to assembled Bengalis that blood was needed for wounded soldiers and he requested donors. Apparently those that volunteered donated blood alright - all of it until they died. This murder by blood extraction apparently happened at a number of places.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Through out the province, the army practiced a simple technique of pacification. As used in Dacca that first horrible day, soldiers would surround a hamlet, village, town, or city block. Then, whether slums or thatched huts or residential houses, they would pour gasoline around the homes, ignite it, and shoot or bayonet people trying to escape the flames.&#8217;_
> 
> Or you can refer to War and Secession: Pakistan, India, and the creation of Bangladesh by Sisson & Rose.
> 
> Under the sub-chapter &#8216;The &#8220;Military Solution According To Plan&#8221;&#8217;, they write:
> 
> &#8216;_As threats to the interests and values important to the army increased and as expectations for a political settlement that could be trusted, declined, Yahya, under pressure from his army command, chose to pursue a "military solution according to plan." [&#8230;] The costs of military action would be relatively small, and it would have the positive consequence of "cleaning the political stables'" in the east [&#8230;] It was to be carried out in such a way as not to alarm India or provoke the Indian army by carrying military operations closer to border areas. Given the above objectives and conditions, Indian military involvement would be difficult to justify and was not considered a serious possibility by the Pakistani command [&#8230;] The objectives were to neutralize the political power of the Awami League and to re-establish public order. First, the top leadership of the party had to be captured, The second priority was to neutralize its more radical elements, in particular student leaders and organizations and various cultural organisations that advocated a Bengali renaissance.[&#8230;] Third, the Bengali armed forces had to be disarmed end neutralized._&#8217;
> 
> Or you can refer to Foreign Relations of United States (FRUS)
> &#8216;_&#8230;we have chosen not to intervene, even morally, on the grounds that the Awami conflict, in which unfortunately the overworked term genocide is applicable, is purely internal matter of a sovereign state._&#8217; &#8211; Telegram from Consul General in Dhaka to US State Department, 6th April, 1971 (FRUS).
> 
> One example of PA&#8217;s planned extermination programme is the Hariharpara massacre. It was one of the many instances that came to be known after the war had ended. Lewis. M. Simmons of Washington Post, reported on 10th Jan, 1972:
> 
> &#8216;_According to eye witnesses, this is what happened: Beginning at sundown each evening, the soldiers dragged the Benglais, men and women, bound together in batches of six and eight, to the Burhiganga river front to be killed. While their executioners loomed above them on a wooden pier they were made to wade out into knee deep water. Then the rifles opened up. And the firing and the screaming shattered the hot night air until dawn. Each morning, village boatmen were forced to bring their high-powered craft into the bloody water and haul the bodies out to midstream, where they were cut loose to drift downriver. Victims were brought to Hariharpara by trucks from other villages, from the East Pakistani capital of Dhaka, eight miles to the north. Their hands tied behind their backs, they were kept prisoners in a large river side warehouse of the Pakistan National Oil Company until their time came to die._&#8217;
> 
> The casualty figure at Hariharpara itself is estimated at around 20,000. Rummel has also narrated this in his book.
> 
> I can also post numerous newspaper reports of that time, that appeared in Newsweek, Times, Life, New York Times etc. I can assure you, it won&#8217;t be pretty.



You can post, and as I have repeatedly pointed out I will not deny that atrocities happened, especially given that the Bengali militants had massacred and raped over a hundred thousand women and children in the run-up to operation Searchlight, but isolated incidents, many unsubstantiated barring anecdotal accounts, do not establish a systematic policy by the PA high command to exterminate Bengalis, nor do they establish the numbers claimed, which has been debunked already.

And yes, given the conflicting and contradictory accounts out of the newly established EP government and leadership, I do doubt these accounts and will unless and independent and neutral commission appointed by the UN investigates them and establishes their veracity.

_"Some accounts seem simply the stuff of propaganda but come from reputable sources or eyewitnesses"_

And propaganda they are, likely sown by Indians and Bengalis eager to bolster the legitimacy of their struggle by maligning Pakistan. I will need more than anecdotal accounts to believe this rubbish.


> Thirdly, I am not the one who started this number game. It was never the scope of my post #33 . It was your good friend *blain2* who have set up this strawman. Direct your frustration to him. And if you were sincere you would have noticed, that I have stayed clear of this and concentrated more on the scope of this thread.


Nice deflection, but as usual you are lying. You chose to initiate a tangential argument by raising the 'genocide' canard (debunked by now), when the topic was quite clearly limited to whether or not the PA was controlling the EP insurgency.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> You havent provided any evidence what so ever, that India was in any way involved before Operation Searchlight.
> 
> I have also explained the context of Ms Gandhis comments. Whether or not you agree with it is entirely upto you. Couldn't care less.
> 
> Rest of your accusation is just garbage  a lullaby that you need to repeat to yourself to feel good and secured.



I am not going to repeat myself - we had this argument already and the sources were provided to you. Look through your post history to re-read them since you appear to get selective amnesia on these things.

The only 'lullaby' here are the lies of 'genocide and millions killed' that Indians and some Bangladeshis sing to themselves.

The argument is sound, you just don't like it since it exposes India's excuses for intervention to be flawed and unjustifiable and rips away that fairytale that keeps alive the sense of Xenophobia and hatred Bengalis like yourself have towards West Pakistanis.


----------



## leonblack08

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> By the way, since no one actually wants to comment on the topic, it would appear the assertion is largely correct, that the PA did indeed have the East Pakistan insurgency under control for the most part, and the situation in East Pakistan would not have deteriorated and EP would not have gained independence without Indian intervention.



I beg to differ.

Yes it was quite for some period,after Operation Search light to August.
But that was mainly due to organising the freedom Fighters.
Also I must add that there was a decision to wait for rainy season to launch attack.because by then the civilian recruits will be trained and at the same time,due to flood the W Pakistani soldiers will be in a bit difficult situation.
And thus we see the rate of attacks on Pakistani installment rose from August.And big successes like Operation Jackpot further proves the point.

Without Indian military help,i.e. *indirect help through arms and trainning* it would have been impossible.But the "insurgency" or in our term *"Freedom struggle"* was not under military control.

Some well known examples are,Operation Jacpot,where hundreds of naval commandos blew up Pakistani shipping.Also simultaneously Guerrilla attacks in targets in Dhaka by a crack commando group trained by Major ATM Haider (ex-SSG commando).

Battle of Bhairab is another where the lack of control is clearly evident.There are lots of other battles,small to medium scaled.Some large scaled.

I had posted some details in this thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/41456-battles-1971-a.html

That thread is now closed.

I am posting this video and its translation to expose the myth,that everything was under control.






Major General Gulam Helal Murshed Khan, Bir Bicrom.

Translation:

On 1971,General Gulam was a young officer at 2nd East Bengal Regiment (Known as Junior tigers)of Pakistan army.
After hearing 7th march's speech of Sheikh Mujib,he sensed that a war was inevitable.He came back to Bangladesh on 21st March and joined priyo paltan 2nd East Bengla Regiment.

On 28th March,along with EBR battled their way through Mymensingh and then Ashuganj and then Sylhet*.From 28th March to 19th June,these men of East Bengal Regiment were able to keep this vast area free f.rom occupation.*

Instead of conventional war,strategy was changed to guerrilla war fare.On June,he was selected as a Sub-sector commander.They organised people to fight against West Pakistani forces.

F.rom 13th May to 23rd May,the fighting was fierce.Pakistan army's one part was in Sylhet and the other was in Ashuganj(Bhairab).They were trying to link up,but the Freedom fighters were resisting it.

On 13th May,Maj. Gen. Gulam led an ambush with 12 student-turned-fighters.There was unexpected success.4 out of 8 vehicles were destroyed and 50 were killeda and around 40 injured.After the ops. Dhaka-Sylhet route was closed for few days.

Another ambush on this same month,East Bengal Regiment was able to kill 30 soldiers.This is known as 2nd ambush bakshit.*It is written on the history of Bangladesh Army's East Bengal Regiment.*

On 13th Sep. an ambush on train line,killed 27 more soldiers.

There were many other ops,in which he was a part of with Bangladesh army's Delta company.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

After 25th March,nothing could have gone back to old days.So "everything under control" is nothing but a propaganda by the Military govt. of West Pakistan at that time.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## leonblack08

As for the civilian deaths' number,I do agree that 3 million is exaggeration mainly due to political and emotional reasons.
But the original number of death is certainly not 26000 as per Hamodoor Rahman Commission.It has to be around 300000-1million.

The reason being so many mass graves were found.
Most of the time the dead bodies were dumped in the river.Eyewitnesses talk of rivers turning red.

You are saying about Biharis being killed,but you should also mention the killings committed by Biharis along with W Pakistani soldiers and the Razakars.

On 14 th December,they dragged intellectuals(Professors,doctors etc) and slaughtered them in a systematic manner so that the newly born country remains brainless.
We observe that day as Shaheed intellectual's day.

There was a Bihari who used to slaughter and then play football with the victim's head.Now these are real stories,but you are free to rate them whatever you like.


----------



## Windjammer

toxic_pus said:


> Your usual tripe aside, Ms Gandhi had never said any such thing. At least I am not aware of it. Feel free to provide evidence. Or not.
> 
> On the other hand, Indian officials did mention of such thing, something in the lines of, 'India would enter East Pakistan in self-defense'. Its called 'offensive-defensive'. Reference to 'self defense' was with regard to complete destruction of border economy, change in demography due to the deluge of refugees, huge outflow of funds in feeding and maintaining them and potential law and order problem associated with the refugee camps. Since Yahya was refusing to stop butchering his fellow countrymen resulting in perpetuation of such refugee problem, a swift kick in his nuts was thought to be the only way to knock some sense into his dense skull.
> 
> The comment encapsulated that strategy.


Pathetic digression of historical facts seem to restore your beliefs in self denial. Her abysmal statement to the effect is on records as being the under dog for the last six odd years, she was desperate to shed India's image of a bewildered giant. Not with standing your derelict assertion of the refugee situation, in some what same context, Pakistan then had every reason to enter Afghanistan experiencing even worse influx of refugees after the Soviet invasion. And since you justify your Mata's actions then it's relevant for Pakistan to clip your war lords round the ears for their dastardly actions against Kashmir Citizens, alias a taste of your own medicine.


----------



## gogbot

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Please read the thread title again, the topic is whether or not the PA had the insurgency under control.*
> 
> The question of whether you want to call the actions of militants in East Pakistan an 'insurgency' or a 'freedom movement' is irrelevant and was brought up by other posters.
> 
> However, looking up the definitions of these terms before bandying them about would be helpful:
> 
> _Definition of insurgency: An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognised as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognised as belligerents."_
> 
> So yes, the violent aspect of the separatist movement in East Pakistan does classify as an insurgency, even if you want to categorize the political aspect of it, or perhaps even the combined politcal-military movement, as a 'freedom movement'.
> 
> For the purposes of this discussion the reference is to the militant aspect of the freedom movement which fits in with the definition of 'insurgency', and that is the context in which my original remarks quoted at the beginning of the thread were made.





iajdani said:


> *Ya the biggest political party with 100% seat in parliament in East Pakistan declared independence means insurgency to some people is just living in a fools world. Army was broken, civil adminstration broken even diplomatic missions defected. Does that mean insurgency??? Give me a break.
> Yes after 26th of March Bangladesh government seeked help from India, Russia and they were successfull in securing those.*



First post to the entire thread


----------



## M_Saint

> The East Pakistan insurgency had largely been controlled militarily - independence would not have been achieved without Indian military intervention, heck, even the insurgency, instability and unrest would not have gotten to the point it did without covert Indian intervention.But this is off topic.


You're absolutely, positively right on the money, Agno BRO. Please don't give Ram's azz what any of the Malauns Sugar Coats, makes up or throws hundred links of the books written by the war-booty holders. You can get to the bottom of the entire saga by finding the facts that BRITS had made Calcutta, the capital of BRITS ran IND, where Bengali Hindus emerged as one of the most English-learning intellectual classes. Be in PR or culture, they dominated and even in most of the primary schools, they led as teachers in E PAK later on. Their psychophant's transformation as communists and subsequent infiltration in DU in around 1935 helped to plant the seed of Vasha Andolan. They were the ones, who drummed up 60s anti-PAK rhetorics. But a big, a definite thing was that they weren't majority in E. PAK and with the migration of Muslim sufferers in the hands of their types in WB, IND they were rightly indentified, apprehanded, punished, restrainded and contained by unified PAKers. But the reach of Commie Sarder Hegelian's "Creative Chaos" was way beyond than unified PAKer's ability. I heard from very informed person that both of the super powers along with BRITs assured IND of their full supports in breaking PAK up even before the game had started. And CHN's not stepping up for help had made the disparity of power more intense. So, that should be the denominator to analyze on how we have broken up and what is our way forward, which I think you have already got it, thanks.


----------



## notsuperstitious

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am not denying that atrocities occurred, just that they were in no way genocide in that there was not systematic attempt to exterminate an ethnic group.



From the article I posted.


> *
> The Hindus, who account for three-fourths of the refugees and a majority of the dead*



Add to that m_saint's post and you will see what the pro west pakistan razakars / jamat / al badr / al shams / biharis and indeed the army were thinking - blaming the wily hindu for the 'problem' - and a coincidence that the hindus bore the brunt?, when hindus were less in numbers in actual fighters - that IS systematic targetting of an ethnic group. When you load up hundreds of hindus on trains and take them to their slaughter, when you check their genitals on checkpoints to identify them, thats systematic targetting of an ethnic group that the pakistani ideology loved to hate. the hutus did not have a well documented plan complete with flowcharts, but the genocide occured, whereas there's more evidence in 1971 case.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nonsense - if by political group you mean to suggest that the separatists were a political group, then any nation that fights separatists and seeks to eliminate them is committing genocide, and that includes India and the US.
> 
> Secondly, were the objective to exterminate the entire political group, Mujib would have been the first casualty, yet he survived the entire war.
> 
> 
> You are being disingenuous as usual.


Nice attempt at yet another _argument by re-definition_. First you tried to _re-define_ what would constitute genocide in the context of Bangladesh. When got called on that, you quickly _re-defined_ what would constitute 'political group'. No, separatists didn't form the 'political group', but leadership, workers, cadres and supporters of Awami League formed the 'political group'. The separatists were a part of that group. Putting down armed rebellion is one thing, but going door to door, marked with chalk by the lackeys of PA, and gunning the residents down, or burning down village after village, simply on a suspicion that they were Awami supporters, only reveals a sinister plan to 'clean the political stable'. India has never done anything like that.

But then, what about the extermination of Hindus? If deliberately seeking them out, often by checking at random if men were circumcised or not - an obsession still very much alive within PA - and killing them without remorse do not qualify as genocide, nothing ever will. As R.J.Rummel notes:

'_In 1971 the self-appointed President of Pakistan and Commander-in-Chief of the Army, General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan and his top generals prepared a careful and systematic military, economic, and political operation in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). They also planned to murder its Bengali intellectual, cultural, and political elite. They also planned to indiscriminately murder hundreds of thousands of its Hindus and drive the rest into India. And they planned to destroy its economic base to insure that it would be subordinate to West Pakistan for at least a generation to come. This despicable and cutthroat plan was outright genocide._'

Mujib would have been hanged if India hadn't kept the issue of Mujib on the burner, and US hadn't sat on Yahya's face. It was one of the rarest of rare moments when Yahya showed some pragmatism. The immense popularity of Mujib, not only within East Pakistan, but internationally, prevented Yahya from sending him to the gallows. 

'_After several abortive attempts I reintroduced the question of how the GOP would deal with Sheik Mujib. President Yahya said that as far as he was concerned *Sheikh Mujib had committed a capital crime* and would be tried in a duly constitutional court, and he would be given a fair and impartial trial. *After noting that in the President's last address to the people of Pakistan it appeared to me as a lawyer that Sheikh Mujib had already been prejudged*, and that a change of venue was impossible, I emphasized the fact that *the GOP might well weigh world opinion vis-à-vis the severity of the sentence since Sheikh Mujib had a great deal international sympathy attaining*. Yahya reply was noncommittal but not necessarily negative. He indicated that he would think about it_.' - Telegram from Consul General in Karachi to US State Department; 22nd May, 1971



> You can post, and as I have repeatedly pointed out I will not deny that atrocities happened, especially given that the Bengali militants had massacred and raped over a hundred thousand women and children in the run-up to operation Searchlight, but isolated incidents, many unsubstantiated barring anecdotal accounts, do not establish a systematic policy by the PA high command to exterminate Bengalis, nor do they establish the numbers claimed, which has been debunked already.


You ever planning to provide evidence, other than Supplementary HRC report, of massacre and rape of 'over a hundred thousand women and children in the run-up to operation Searchlight'. There were indeed massacre of Biharis post-25 March. There were indeed stray incidents of murders in the rural East Pakistan 'in the run-up to operation Searchlight'. But so far I have never come across any independent research that says 'over a hundred thousand women and children in the run-up to operation Searchlight' were massacred and raped. You also planning to back up that figure of '100,000+', or will it continue hanging in the air?

It is also disingenuous to continuously tone down the horrendous acts of PA as 'some mistakes' and tying these down with the mythical '100,000+ deaths and massacres prior to crack down' to give an impression that PA only reacted and not acted, thereby reducing the degree of culpability of PA. 

The manner of identifying homes of Awami supporters reveals plan. The manner of murdering the intellectuals, so that the Bangladeshis are left with no credible leadership, reveals plan. The manner of seeking out Hindus reveals plan. The manner of identifying non-Bengalis, so that they can be spared, reveals plan. Gutting down village after village, for miles, reveals plan. Operating death camps reveals plans. These are by no means 'stray incidents' but very much a concerted effort. Yahya's desire for '_military solution according to plan_' or '_clean the political stable_' or declaration, '_Kill three million of them and the rest will eat out of our hands_' (refer _Massacre_ by Robert Payne. Incidentally, this comment is attributed to the figure of '3 million' deaths.) or Tikka khan's boastful '_I want the land not the people_' or the general consensus among PA that '_a whiff of gunpowder would overawe the meek Bengalis_' (refer _The Idea of Pakistan_ by Stephen. P. Cohen), reveal a 'systematic policy'.

You are fooling no one except for yourself and members of your tribe.



> And yes, given the conflicting and contradictory accounts out of the newly established EP government and leadership, I do doubt these accounts and will unless and independent and neutral commission appointed by the UN investigates them and establishes their veracity.


Guess which country backed out from UN investigation on the plea of 'internal issue'.



> _"Some accounts seem simply the stuff of propaganda but come from reputable sources or eyewitnesses"_


Yes, it was that much incredible that human being can be so much barbaric.



> And propaganda they are, likely sown by Indians and Bengalis eager to bolster the legitimacy of their struggle by maligning Pakistan. I will need more than anecdotal accounts to believe this rubbish.


And yet you are more than willing to swallow the Supplementary HRC Report, which, by their own account, had examined a mere 213 witnesses. I understand, denial can keep a person warm and dry. But this is hilarious. 

If any first hand eyewitness to the barbarity of PA is a mere anecdote and hence cant be relied on, then one wonders, what would an investigation into any massacre or genocide entail? What will then be accepted as evidence? Accounting for each and every dead body? Documents ordering massacre, signed, sealed and authenticated by the goons? Images of atrocities being committed? Then again you also reject photographic evidence of piles of dead bodies. What else do you need?

Then again, who cares what you need. The world at large is convinced.



> Nice deflection, but as usual you are lying. You chose to initiate a tangential argument by raising the 'genocide' canard (debunked by now), when the topic was quite clearly limited to whether or not the PA was controlling the EP insurgency.


Thats bulls!t. *blain2* had made an assertion that Bangladesh could have been avoided, merely by subjugating the Bengalis, militarily. My question was meant to look into the political aspect of integrating an entire region of disenchanted population after that atrocious military subjugation, particularly, when the same population, before their treason, was convinced that they were consistently denied of their rights. Your good friend could have carried on with the debate with a simple rejoinder, but instead he, and now you, made the peripheral issue as primary one. Do note how he quickly forgets to explain how an administration completely devoid of Bengali representation, could at all be viable for East Pakistan or if it could be trusted by the Bengalis. The question, in the context of the thread, is not if the deaths were really that many or the massacres can be called genocide. The question is if a population which has been brandied as traitors could still be held back from eventually breaking away. That remains unanswered even now.

Now stop giving it an unnecessary spin. Although I must give credit where it is due. You have successfully turned this into the question of if PA engineered massacres qualify as genocide. To the world at large it does. No amount of wishful denial is going to change that.

Anyway, I love the way you, from time to time, hoist that victory pennant. You never get tired of stroking your ego. Do you now?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## toxic_pus

Windjammer said:


> Pathetic digression of historical facts seem to restore your beliefs in self denial. *Her abysmal statement to the effect is on records* as being the under dog for the last six odd years, she was desperate to shed India's image of a bewildered giant.


And yet you fail to cite that record. 



> Not with standing your derelict assertion of the refugee situation, in some what same context, Pakistan then had every reason to enter Afghanistan experiencing even worse influx of refugees after the Soviet invasion. And since you justify your Mata's actions then it's relevant for Pakistan to clip your war lords round the ears for their dastardly actions against Kashmir Citizens, alias a taste of your own medicine.


10 million refugees in less than 8 months is same as your Afghan refugees (how many, 6 or 7 million?) over a period of 30 (60?) odd years.

Yeah right.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ultimate Warrior

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Insurgencies are nasty and bloody.
> 
> How many innocents were killed by the US military and allies in Vietnam?
> 
> How many innocents were massacred by Indian security forces in Punjab? We already know the tens of thousands murdered, tortured and raped in Kashmir.
> 
> And while you are pontificating about 'even a single killing is condemnable' ponder this excerpt from the Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report:
> 
> 
> 
> Recall the earlier definition of genocide - what fits the definition better here: The massacring of West Pakistanis and Biharis by Bengalis primarily for being 'non-Bengali' (and remember this occurred before Op. Searchlight) or the killing of Bengalis in an attempt to control an insurgency?
> 
> Where are the demands for apologies to Pakistanis for the atrocities committed upon them? Where are the demands of apologies from India for supporting such murderous hordes and terrorists?
> 
> Look to your own sins sir, and stop lying and distorting history. I think in this thread it has been clearly established that no genocide occurred in EP and that the numbers killed were nowhere close to what Indians and some Bangladeshis claim.



Brother,

*When you give example of US-Vietnam or so called killings in Kashmir you forget or intentionally ignore the facts. i.e.*

*US is a cristian country and Vietnam is not. 
So Christians army is killing Iraqi/Afghan Muslims or Vietnamese Buddhist not Christians.*

*But, the Pakistani Army is a Islamic Army and in Bangladesh Muslim army have butchered Muslims.*

*So it is a very big difference. The nations that was created in the name of Muslims are killing its own Muslims.*

So how can anybody justifies it.


----------



## Windjammer

toxic_pus said:


> And yet you fail to cite that record.
> 
> 
> 10 million refugees in less than 8 months is same as your Afghan refugees (how many, 6 or 7 million?) over a period of 30 (60?) odd years.
> 
> Yeah right.


Evidentially it seems that some of those toxic fumes are taking effect, do some fact finding before getting involved in a debate.
Firstly Mrs Gandhi didn't exactly release a video of delivering the statement as she has been quoted in several narratives of the period and for your clumsy Afghan Refugee assessment, may i remind you that even today Pakistan is still bearing the burden of theses displaced Afghan Nationals even after 30 ODD YEARS.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gogbot said:


> First post to the entire thread



First post to the entire thread that was off topic ...

You started the thread, quoted me and gave it that title, and you yourself have no idea what the topic means?


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

leonblack08 said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> Yes it was quite for some period,after Operation Search light to August.
> But that was mainly due to organising the freedom Fighters.
> Also I must add that there was a decision to wait for rainy season to launch attack.because by then the civilian recruits will be trained and at the same time,due to flood the W Pakistani soldiers will be in a bit difficult situation.
> And thus we see the rate of attacks on Pakistani installment rose from August.And big successes like Operation Jackpot further proves the point.
> 
> Without Indian military help,i.e. *indirect help through arms and trainning* it would have been impossible.But the "insurgency" or in our term *"Freedom struggle"* was not under military control.


First, here you have just admitted that Indian support played a crucial role in fannign the insurgency, so you did in fact validate the argument that without covert Indian support the insurgency itself would not have lasted as long as it did.

Secondly, isolated operations, even if spectacular and successful (such as the attacks on Navy ships) do not suggest that the insurgency was getting out of control. Study the Taliban insurgency for a moment, even as the PA was establishing control over Swat and Waziristan, we had a series of spectacular attacks in major cities and on military targets - hundreds of people killed, GHQ and intelligence targets attacked. Yet we also see that at the same time as those attacks the Taliban insurgency was being stifled in SW, Swat and other areas.

If one looks solely at the timeline during which the Taliban were carrying out terrorist attacks, one would think that the State was about to fall (and last year around this time that was the prediction), yet the tide has been reversed to a great deal. Are terrorist attacks going to be eliminated completely in the near term? No, But just because terrorists manage to carry out isolated attacks here and there does not mean that the insurgency is not largely under control.

The fact of the matter is that the insurgency itself would not have survived without Indian support, and even with Indian support the most it could do was a series of attacks.

Excluding Indian intervention, what would have happened is that reinforcements would have been sent, the military would have clamped down even more, and the insurgency would have been neutralized domestically. Yes, attacks would have likely continued, but only so long as the Indians continued to provide safe haven, training and equipment to terrorists attacking East Pakistan. 

Without Indian support the insurgency was going nowhere, and East Pakistan would not have gained independence through force - that is fact.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

leonblack08 said:


> As for the civilian deaths' number,I do agree that 3 million is exaggeration mainly due to political and emotional reasons.
> But the original number of death is certainly not 26000 as per Hamodoor Rahman Commission.It has to be around 300000-1million.


Why does it have to be 'around 300,000 to 1 million'?

Are we just inventing numbers that we 'feel good about'?

Assuming 300,000 killed, does that include the hundred thousand plus West Pakistanis and Biharis massacred by Bengali terrorists before Op. Searchlight?



> The reason being so many mass graves were found.
> Most of the time the dead bodies were dumped in the river.Eyewitnesses talk of rivers turning red.


All of that data could have been validated, by either the Bangladeshi government or the UN. The presence of mass graves alone does not indicate innocents were killed. For example in Swat the military buried militants it killed in large numbers in mass graves. The militants themselves did the same after air strikes on their compounds with the PA advancing on them and not enough time to do individual burials.

There were children amongst them ... since the Taliban brainwashed children to fight their war and carry out suicide bombings.

So you see why establishing 'genocide' or even 'non combatant deaths' merely from mass graves is not exactly the easiest thing to do.



> You are saying about Biharis being killed,but you should also mention the killings committed by Biharis along with W Pakistani soldiers and the Razakars.


I am pointing out the atrocities committed by Bengali militants before operation searchlight. We here lies after lies of 'millions killed' from Bangladeshis and Indians, yet this fact that Bengali militants massacred upwards of a hundred thousand West Pakistani and Bihari innocent men, women and children is conveniently ignored since it exposes the barbarism of the Separatists preceding Op. Searchlight.


> On 14 th December,they dragged intellectuals(Professors,doctors etc) and slaughtered them in a systematic manner so that the newly born country remains brainless.
> We observe that day as Shaheed intellectual's day.


They were collaborators, and hence traitors - the punishment for treason is death.


> There was a Bihari who used to slaughter and then play football with the victim's head.Now these are real stories,but you are free to rate them whatever you like.


Could there haven been such an individual? Perhaps I can't say either way, but atrocities were committed buy both sides. Grommel here is fond of posting a picture of some Bengali boys holding the decapitated head of a Pakistani soldier. That isn't exactly respecting the dead either, is it?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Nemesis

> Excluding Indian intervention, what would have happened is that reinforcements would have been sent, the military would have clamped down even more, and the insurgency would have been neutralized domestically. Yes, attacks would have likely continued, but only so long as the Indians continued to provide safe haven, training and equipment to terrorists attacking East Pakistan



You have yet to explain how West Pakistan would have been able control a population that did not want its rule. The "treason" solution? i.e Execute them all without a proper trial.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

fateh71 said:


> From the article I posted.
> 
> 
> Add to that m_saint's post and you will see what the pro west pakistan razakars / jamat / al badr / al shams / biharis and indeed the army were thinking - blaming the wily hindu for the 'problem' - and a coincidence that the hindus bore the brunt?, when hindus were less in numbers in actual fighters - that IS systematic targetting of an ethnic group. When you load up hundreds of hindus on trains and take them to their slaughter, when you check their genitals on checkpoints to identify them, thats systematic targetting of an ethnic group that the pakistani ideology loved to hate. the hutus did not have a well documented plan complete with flowcharts, but the genocide occured, whereas there's more evidence in 1971 case.


Put in trains? Where?

And as for checking for Hindus, given Indian support for the insurgency, it was a legitimate concern in terms of checking the individual further. But that does not prove that every Hindu found was killed. 

As for numbers killed, whether Hindus were or were not the majority of those killed, that can only be determined through an impartial commission that investigates these events, since history has so obviously been clouded with lies of genocide and 'millions killed'.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> You have yet to explain how West Pakistan would have been able control a population that did not want its rule. The "treason" solution? i.e Execute them all without a proper trial.


I touched on this in my earlier posts, and would appreciate if you actually read them instead of repeating the same question. 

After the violent insurgence was controlled it would have been up to the politicians to enact political reforms, possibly a confederation. I am not suggesting that this would have happened, but that it was feasible and a possibility.

It is equally possible that the Pakistani government would gone the other way and not made political compromises, but both possibilities are speculation. My only point is that once the violent insurgency was defeated are severely degraded, political unity could have been maintained through political reforms.


----------



## Nemesis

> It is equally possible that the Pakistani government would gone the other way and not made political compromises, but both possibilities are speculation. My only point is that once the violent insurgency was defeated are severely degraded, political unity could have been maintained through political reforms.



After the massacres started, it would have been impossible to maintain political unity unless under the writ of the military. However this would have only delayed the inevitable. Historically speaking such enforced unfications do not last long. 

The awami league supported by almost everyone in E Pakistan had declared independence, what possible compromise could they have made with West Pakistan that would have been acceptable to the people? You may call it speculation but outside of independence there was no viable alternative available after the killings began.


----------



## leonblack08

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> First, here you have just admitted that Indian support played a crucial role in fannign the insurgency, so you did in fact validate the argument that without covert Indian support the insurgency itself would not have lasted as long as it did.



Off course I agree on that,and that's the reason I admitted that.Without Indian help through arms,training and shelter the struggle would have been crushed eventually.

But what I beg to differ is,*"that insurgency was under military control"*.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Secondly, isolated operations, even if spectacular and successful (such as the attacks on Navy ships) do not suggest that the insurgency was getting out of control. Study the Taliban insurgency for a moment, even as the PA was establishing control over Swat and Waziristan, we had a series of spectacular attacks in major cities and on military targets - hundreds of people killed, GHQ and intelligence targets attacked. Yet we also see that at the same time as those attacks the Taliban insurgency was being stifled in SW, Swat and other areas.
> 
> If one looks solely at the timeline during which the Taliban were carrying out terrorist attacks, one would think that the State was about to fall (and last year around this time that was the prediction), yet the tide has been reversed to a great deal. Are terrorist attacks going to be eliminated completely in the near term? No, But just because terrorists manage to carry out isolated attacks here and there does not mean that the insurgency is not largely under control.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that the insurgency itself would not have survived without Indian support, and even with Indian support the most it could do was a series of attacks.
> 
> Excluding Indian intervention, what would have happened is that reinforcements would have been sent, the military would have clamped down even more, and the insurgency would have been neutralized domestically. Yes, attacks would have likely continued, but only so long as the Indians continued to provide safe haven, training and equipment to terrorists attacking East Pakistan.
> 
> Without Indian support the insurgency was going nowhere, and East Pakistan would not have gained independence through force - that is fact.



I must say that even before Indian army launched full fledged attack,parts of Bangladesh were being liberated.Who were doing those?Not the Indian soldiers but the freedom fighters.

The introduction of Indian attack just sped up the process.What could have taken 9 years,ended in 9 months.

Let me tell my thought on what would happen if India did not intervene directly.
With the entire population against West Pakistan,except a few traitors,and continuous logistical support from India,the independence was bound to happen.Bringing in reinforcements would have only delayed the inevitable.

You can not compare war against Taliban's with this.
Reason being,they are fighting very close to your reach.Whereas in 1971,Pakistan military was fighting 1600kms from their HQs in a hostile land.
besides,Pakistan army of 1971 did not have the same capability and equipment as they have now.Pakistan army of 2010 is certainly stronger and better equipped,wouldn't you agree to that?

I repeat my words again,everything was lost after the crackdown on civilians on 25th March night.Once that happened,there was no possibility of an "United Pakistan" again.


----------



## leonblack08

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why does it have to be 'around 300,000 to 1 million'?
> 
> Are we just inventing numbers that we 'feel good about'?
> 
> Assuming 300,000 killed, does that include the hundred thousand plus West Pakistanis and Biharis massacred by Bengali terrorists before Op. Searchlight?




We are not inventing numbers.

Let me tell you a funny thing,in our part of the world people confuse themselves with *"millions" *and* "lacs"*.

When Sheikh Mujib was first asked he said 3 million,but some scholars thinks he meant 3 lacs.
However,later on when asked again,he said 1 million.

That's why I put an estimate,considering the number of mass graves found.Also the fact that many were killed and dumped in rivers,whose bodies were not found later.Probably eaten by fish.

There are accounts of eyewitnesses that 100s of people were rounded up and then killed and then bodies dumped in rivers.
These accounts are too frequent from first hand eye witnesses and sometimes fortunate survivors.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> All of that data could have been validated, by either the Bangladeshi government or the UN. The presence of mass graves alone does not indicate innocents were killed. For example in Swat the military buried militants it killed in large numbers in mass graves. The militants themselves did the same after air strikes on their compounds with the PA advancing on them and not enough time to do individual burials.
> 
> There were children amongst them ... since the Taliban brainwashed children to fight their war and carry out suicide bombings.
> 
> So you see why establishing 'genocide' or even 'non combatant deaths' merely from mass graves is not exactly the easiest thing to do.
> I am pointing out the atrocities committed by Bengali militants before operation searchlight. We here lies after lies of 'millions killed' from Bangladeshis and Indians, yet this fact that Bengali militants massacred upwards of a hundred thousand West Pakistani and Bihari innocent men, women and children is conveniently ignored since it exposes the barbarism of the Separatists preceding Op. Searchlight.
> Could there haven been such an individual? Perhaps I can't say either way, but atrocities were committed buy both sides.



Killing of bengalis were also going on before Operation searchlight,which also fueled the movement.

And I do not deny that atrocities were committed by both sides,but number of civilians killed by W Pakistani forces and their collaborators was very high comparing to the number of Biharis killed.
Reason is simple,there were too many Bengalis available to kill.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *They were collaborators, and hence traitors - the punishment for treason is death.
> *




Yes,that is why W Pakistani Generals sent in irregular Al-Badar,Al-shams and rajakars to do the dirty work for them.Why were they killed just before Pakistan surrendered? 

According to your statement, these people sould have been executed during the so-called *"Peace full period"*.

Instead they were killed just 2 days before surrender,by dragging them from their homes at night and then killing them and dumping them.

That shows that they were killed indiscriminately and in a real hurry to make the new born country brainless.If you are an intellect you are to be killed.A desperate attempt of a losing general to salvage something for future perhaps.


Even during Operation search light university students,prefessors were targeted.Certainly a wonderful(?) way of showing bravery.

The whole episode could have been solved by dialogue,but the "Intelligent" ruler of Unified Pakistan at that time thought "showing bravery" was a better option.The so called "Martial race" theory.


I think we are again drifting away from topic,which is about "military control".So I am not posting anything on this further.
Because we will be talking in circles and none of us would eventually reach conclusion.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nemesis said:


> After the massacres started, it would have been impossible to maintain political unity unless under the writ of the military. However this would have only delayed the inevitable. Historically speaking such enforced unfications do not last long.
> 
> The awami league supported by almost everyone in E Pakistan had declared independence, what possible compromise could they have made with West Pakistan that would have been acceptable to the people? You may call it speculation but outside of independence there was no viable alternative available after the killings began.


First, I disagree that there were 'massacres' to the extent that reconciliation was impossible (and massacres were committed by both sides, lets not forget the hundred plus thousand killed by the Bengali separatists in the run-up to Op. Searchlight).

Second, this hypothetical exercise of reconciliation in the aftermath of crushing the violent insurgency is based on India not supporting the insurgency and intervening covertly and overtly - the absence of that intervention would have also allowed the situation to not get as inflamed in the first place and easier to pacify in the second, so even the casualties that did occur would be far lower.

If one takes out Indian support for terrorism in EP in 1971 and its military intervention, reconciliation and the continuation of a united Pakistan in some form is in fact a feasible proposition.

The problem, in terms of an inability for you and some others to comprehend such an outcome, arises from the fact that you impose historical distortions such as 'genocide and millions killed' on the situation as well as the environment at the end of 1971 which owed a lot to Indian intervention. 

Take out the myths of genocide and the effect of Indian intervention and the environment for the continuation of a United Pakistan does not appear unfeasible at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## k_n

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> First, I disagree that there were 'massacres' to the extent that reconciliation was impossible (and massacres were committed by both sides, lets not forget the hundred plus thousand killed by the Bengali separatists in the run-up to Op. Searchlight).



First you have to prove your rejection by defining as to WHAT EXTENT OF LOSS OF HUMAN LIFE IN SUPPRESSION OF A POLITICAL UPRISING can be deemed to fall within the limits beyond which 'RECONCILIATION' is impossible ?
The scenorio is a just slight different from what you've posted .
Looting , arson and breaking law and order and killing of law enforcement personnel took place after Mujib was denied to form a government and the proposal for "TWO PRIME MINISTERS " for the two seperate wings introduced by Z A Bhutto . It just didnt end here , Mujib had been spearheading the six point movement for a proportional share of political power and economic benefits within Pakistan since 1966 . The movement gained mileage under him and was the prime reason behind Awami League sweeping the 1970 general elections in erst. East Pakistan . Z A Bhutto instead of engaging the Awami League on negotiations bluntly refused to accept the six points , which were :
1. The constitution should provide for a Federation of Pakistan in its true sense based on the Lahore Resolution and the parliamentary form of government with supremacy of a Legislature directly elected on the basis of universal adult franchise. 
2. The federal government should deal with only two subjects: Defence and Foreign Affairs, and all other residual subjects should be vested in the federating states. 
3. Two separate, but freely convertible currencies for two wings should be introduced; or if this is not feasible, there should be one currency for the whole country, but effective constitutional provisions should be introduced to stop the flight of capital from East to West Pakistan. Furthermore, a separate Banking Reserve should be established and separate fiscal and monetary policy be adopted for East Pakistan. 
4. The power of taxation and revenue collection should be vested in the federating units and the federal centre would have no such power. The federation would be entitled to a share in the state taxes to meet its expenditures. 
5. There should be two separate accounts for the foreign exchange earnings of the two wings; the foreign exchange requirements of the federal government should be met by the two wings equally or in a ratio to be fixed; indigenous products should move free of duty between the two wings, and the constitution should empower the units to establish trade links with foreign countries. 
6. East Pakistan should have a separate militia or paramilitary force 

On a lighter note , beside the more EXPLICIT Hindu-Muslim divide between the Congrees and Muslim League the more implicit and crucial difference was the opposition to imposition of a strong central control over the semi-autonomous federation of states/provinces by the League .
Now , when you go ahead with nation building with such 'ETHOS' there is always a chance of disadvantaged groups within the country represented by a SINGLE political party coming up with the kind of demands which Awami League under Mujib sought .

Second , you are expected to prove that post 7th march and prior to 25th March hundred plus thausands west pakistanis , biharis , govt servants and members of security forces were killed by sepeartist bengalis . Now , all those hundred thausand killings were to take place within a period of 18 days . Please forward the proof of your claims and as is the practise here , NO pakisatni source is supposed to be considered valid .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Nice attempt at yet another _argument by re-definition_. First you tried to _re-define_ what would constitute genocide in the context of Bangladesh. When got called on that, you quickly _re-defined_ what would constitute 'political group'. No, separatists didn't form the 'political group', but leadership, workers, cadres and supporters of Awami League formed the 'political group'. The separatists were a part of that group. Putting down armed rebellion is one thing, but going door to door, marked with chalk by the lackeys of PA, and gunning the residents down, or burning down village after village, simply on a suspicion that they were Awami supporters, only reveals a sinister plan to 'clean the political stable'. India has never done anything like that.



Lots more BS. The definition posted was open source, not contrived by me. When you are so disingenuous as to blatantly lie about your nations record of atrocities, no wonder you continue to propagate the mythology of 'genocide' and 'millions killed'.

India in Indian Punjab:



> In its counterinsurgency operations in Punjab from 1984 to 1995, Indian security forces committed serious human rights abuses against tens of thousands of Sikhs. None of the key architects of this counterinsurgency strategy who bear substantial responsibility for these atrocities have been brought to justice.
> 
> Impunity in India has been rampant in Punjab, where security forces committed large-scale human rights violations without any accountability, said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. No one disputes that the militants were guilty of numerous human rights abuses, but the government should have acted within the law instead of sanctioning the killing, disappearance, and torture of individuals accused of supporting the militants.
> 
> A key case discussed in detail in the report is the Punjab mass cremations case, in which the security services are implicated in thousands of killings and secret cremations throughout Punjab to hide the evidence of wrongdoing.
> India: Time to Deliver Justice for Atrocities in Punjab | Human Rights Watch



And that is from HRW, what the Sikhs say about Indian atrocities is far more graphic, as you no doubt know.

And no, I am not revising the definition of genocide, you are distorting the definition to support your fallacious case. The separatists massacred over a hundred thousand innocent men, women and children in less than a month leading to Op. Searchlight. This was more than a law and order situation, a state of war in fact given that a hostile external entity was supporting these people and mass murders and terrorism was being committed by them, and the GoP was absolutely correct in enforcing the writ of the State and its integrity by eliminating those who actively committed those atrocities and those who supported them. In the eyes of the Pakistani State (and any State for that matter) those who committed the atrocities, and those who supported them, were terrorists, barbarians and traitors being sponsored by an external entity.



> But then, what about the extermination of Hindus? If deliberately seeking them out, often by checking at random if men were circumcised or not - an obsession still very much alive within PA - and killing them without remorse do not qualify as genocide, nothing ever will. As R.J.Rummel notes:
> 
> '_In 1971 the self-appointed President of Pakistan and Commander-in-Chief of the Army, General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan and his top generals prepared a careful and systematic military, economic, and political operation in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). They also planned to murder its Bengali intellectual, cultural, and political elite. They also planned to indiscriminately murder hundreds of thousands of its Hindus and drive the rest into India. And they planned to destroy its economic base to insure that it would be subordinate to West Pakistan for at least a generation to come. This despicable and cutthroat plan was outright genocide._'



And RJ Rummel's source for making the above assertions? Are there any documents or recorded conversations amongst the Pakistani generals in the Pakistani archives that support the allegations he has made? Or is this just his 'opinion' reflecting popular bias and mythology?

Rummel's figures and work are nothing but statistical cherry picking. He has done no original work or research. If you have actually bothered to read through the chapter on Pakistan, all he does is take figures from various (often Indian or Bangladeshi) sources and complies a 'mean' as his result. In his own words:
*
"Beneath the consolidated overall toll I show my calculation from the partial estimates (line 81). These are rather close. Consolidating both ranges, I give a final estimate of Pakistan's democide to be 300,000 to 3,000,000, or a prudent 1,500,000 (line 82). "*

His 'research' involves taking an average of the wildly contradictory figures estimated by various authors to come up with a 'prudent' estimate. The reported figures vary from 28,000 t0 3 million. Why should I not accept the HRC report and its conclusions on how many were killed given that its conclusions were far more researched than anything else I have seen.

Poppycock is what it is. He has no idea and the wildly differing figures form the various sources he uses indicate that very few others do either. Hence my argument that without an independent and neutral commission to properly investigate these deaths these assertions are nothing but BS thrown out to support one particular view point.


> You ever planning to provide evidence, other than Supplementary HRC report, of massacre and rape of 'over a hundred thousand women and children in the run-up to operation Searchlight'. There were indeed massacre of Biharis post-25 March. There were indeed stray incidents of murders in the rural East Pakistan 'in the run-up to operation Searchlight'. But so far I have never come across any independent research that says 'over a hundred thousand women and children in the run-up to operation Searchlight' were massacred and raped. You also planning to back up that figure of '100,000+', or will it continue hanging in the air?


The figure has been backed up through the HRC report. Read the quoted portion again:


> 5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants.
> 
> 6. As far as we can judge, Mr Qutubuddin Aziz has made use of authentic personal accounts furnished by the repatriates whose families, have actually suffered at the hands of the Awami League militants. He has also extensively referred to the contemporary accounts of foreign correspondents then stationed in East Pakistan. The plight of the non-Bengali elements still living in Bangladesh and the insistence of that Government on their large-scale repatriation to Pakistan, are factors which appear to confirm the correctness of the allegations made against the Awami League in this behalf.



That is far more thorough an investigation and analysis of events than what RJ Rummel has done.

500,000 massacred at the high end (by the way, the 150,000 massacred by Bengali militants is also referenced by RJ Rummel in that chapter on Pakistan).

And the HRC has also been a damning indictment of the military and has recorded atrocities committed by some in the military. I am not contesting that atrocities were committed, but there remains no evidence that they were on the scale alleged, and the 28,000 - 50,000 dead is a plausible number barring an independent and neutral investigation.



> It is also disingenuous to continuously tone down the horrendous acts of PA as 'some mistakes' and tying these down with the mythical '100,000+ deaths and massacres prior to crack down' to give an impression that PA only reacted and not acted, thereby reducing the degree of culpability of PA.


Please, your lies, denial and dishonesty are getting tiresome, especially when your own source refers to the '150,000 non-Bengalis massacred by Bengalis'.
*
"I can now put together the various estimates of the Bengali--Awami League--democide (lines 162 to 166). Consolidating these, I get a range of 50,000 to 500,000 killed, more likely 150,000. "*

Happy now? This is your own Rummel using his statistical skulduggery to come up with the numbers of non-Bengalis killed, which incidentally matches the figures of the HRC report. 

Throw all these numbers out if you wish, but the fact remains that there is no credible analysis or study of how many were killed on both sides, and to ascribe 'genocide' to the PA based on widely differing and contradictory claims is completely dishonest.

And the PA did react, it reacted to terrorism on the scale that even the Taliban have not managed to perpetrate yet. Terrorism supported and encouraged by India. 



> The manner of identifying homes of Awami supporters reveals plan. The manner of murdering the intellectuals, so that the Bangladeshis are left with no credible leadership, reveals plan. The manner of seeking out Hindus reveals plan. The manner of identifying non-Bengalis, so that they can be spared, reveals plan. Gutting down village after village, for miles, reveals plan. Operating death camps reveals plans. These are by no means 'stray incidents' but very much a concerted effort. Yahya's desire for '_military solution according to plan_' or '_clean the political stable_' or declaration, '_Kill three million of them and the rest will eat out of our hands_' (refer _Massacre_ by Robert Payne. Incidentally, this comment is attributed to the figure of '3 million' deaths.) or Tikka khan's boastful '_I want the land not the people_' or the general consensus among PA that '_a whiff of gunpowder would overawe the meek Bengalis_' (refer _The Idea of Pakistan_ by Stephen. P. Cohen), reveal a 'systematic policy'.


Identifying the homes of supporters of terrorists who massacred 150,000 innocent men, women and children does reveal plan - a plan to take those murderers to task.

The manner of killing collaborators (just because they were academics and intellectuals does not mean they should not have faced the firing squad for treason) suggests plan - a plan to punish traitors and supporters of terrorism. 

As for 'death camps' your use of inaccurate inflammatory rhetoric such as 'death camps' indicates the degree of your dishonesty and the degree to which you are willing to lie and distort history to serve your malicious agenda.

Yahya's comment was reported by one journalist and more than likely was nothing more than rhetoric. A passing comment in an interview (that may or may not be accurately reported) does not establish intent to actually kill, and the controversy has been covered in other works that dismiss it. Keep clinging onto such tripe though, if it helps sustain your xenophobic hatred of West Pakistanis.



> You are fooling no one except for yourself and members of your tribe.


On the contrary, it has been made amply clear that your allegations of genocide and 'millions killed' and the rest of it are nothing but lies sir. Indeed it is true that history is written by the victors, in this case a pack of lies propagated by India and others. Dig even a little deep as has been done on this thread and those lies are exposed for what they are.



> Guess which country backed out from UN investigation on the plea of 'internal issue'.


Nothing stopping Bangladesh from determining the truth, or do they still consider themselves part of Pakistan and hence abide by 'Pakistan's internal issue'? The fact is that the Bangladeshis themselves don't want this 'popular mythology' exposed and their history overturned when the lies of 'millions killed and genocide' are exposed.

On the Pakistani side, given that atrocities did occur (even though not sustematically planned) an investigation does open the door for war crimes trials of its officers, and even though the numbers of those killed is not as high as claimed by some, war crimes trials would still be a huge smudge on the PA.

Both sides have there reasons therefore for not pursuing an independent inquiry, but until such an inquiry takes place, there is no way to substantiate the allegation of genocide or the numbers killed.


> Yes, it was that much incredible that human being can be so much barbaric.


Incredible to the extent that it did not happen. Your author claims as a 'credible source' a letter by someone in a Newspaper! What nonsense. Where is the impartial investigation of these accounts? Why, as Blain pointed out, did nowhere close to the number alleged to be killed and raped come forward to the Bangladeshi government in the aftermath? Because the numbers alleged to be killed was a gross distortion and a pack of lies.



> And yet you are more than willing to swallow the Supplementary HRC Report, which, by their own account, had examined a mere 213 witnesses. I understand, denial can keep a person warm and dry. But this is hilarious.


The HRC methodology for its conclusions involves more research and proper evidence than one chapter of Rummel's statistical skulduggery.


> If any first hand eyewitness to the barbarity of PA is a mere anecdote and hence cant be relied on, then one wonders, what would an investigation into any massacre or genocide entail? What will then be accepted as evidence? Accounting for each and every dead body? Documents ordering massacre, signed, sealed and authenticated by the goons? Images of atrocities being committed? Then again you also reject photographic evidence of piles of dead bodies. What else do you need?


A letter in a newspaper is not an 'eyewitness'.

Yes, accounting for 'most' of the dead bodies, accounts from multiple sources such as the villagers (there are surely more than one) who witnessed these acts, the coming forward of victims and relatives of victims and others (which resulted in extremely low numbers). All you have done is provide isolated anecdotal accounts which, even if all true, do not in any way add up to the numbers dead that are being claimed.


> Then again, who cares what you need. The world at large is convinced.


Logical fallacy - just because the world at large may believe a lie does not make it any truer. Your allegations of millions killed and genocide have no evidence to support them and are lies and propaganda devised to justify Indian intervention and Bangladeshi independence.



> Thats bulls!t. *blain2* had made an assertion that Bangladesh could have been avoided, merely by subjugating the Bengalis, militarily. My question was meant to look into the political aspect of integrating an entire region of disenchanted population after that atrocious military subjugation, particularly, when the same population, before their treason, was convinced that they were consistently denied of their rights. Your good friend could have carried on with the debate with a simple rejoinder, but instead he, and now you, made the peripheral issue as primary one. Do note how he quickly forgets to explain how an administration completely devoid of Bengali representation, could at all be viable for East Pakistan or if it could be trusted by the Bengalis. The question, in the context of the thread, is not if the deaths were really that many or the massacres can be called genocide. The question is if a population which has been brandied as traitors could still be held back from eventually breaking away. That remains unanswered even now.
> 
> Now stop giving it an unnecessary spin. Although I must give credit where it is due. You have successfully turned this into the question of if PA engineered massacres qualify as genocide. To the world at large it does. No amount of wishful denial is going to change that.


How can you lie and distort so blatnatly when the evidence is right there? Though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given your ranting lies about 'genocide and millions killed' This is what Blain said and what you responded to:
_
"Had Indians not invaded, the East Pakistanis could not have come up with a favourable situation on the ground."_

Blain claimed nothing tangential to the thread topic. Controlling the insurgency militarily by definition implies that the country would have continued to function as a united entity. Your response was to dredge up 'genocide' and all the other nonsense about 'whether Pakistan would ever be able to politically re-integrate the Bengali population'.

Whether or not Pakistan would be able to enact political reforms and re-integrate the East Pakistanis is tangential to the issue of whether the insurgency itself was being controlled and would have been controlled was it no for Indian military intervention.


> Anyway, I love the way you, from time to time, hoist that victory pennant. You never get tired of stroking your ego. Do you now?



Thanks - love debunking Indian lies and propaganda.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notsuperstitious

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Put in trains? Where?
> 
> And as for checking for Hindus, given Indian support for the insurgency, it was a legitimate concern in terms of checking the individual further. But that does not prove that every Hindu found was killed.
> 
> As for numbers killed, whether Hindus were or were not the majority of those killed, that can only be determined through an impartial commission that investigates these events, since history has so obviously been clouded with lies of genocide and 'millions killed'.



Impartial inquiry? The US state department sources are impartial and authentic enough for me as they were staunch supporters of pakistan then and YET their records clealy show what i've said.

While asking for impartial inquiry you yourself have been throwing that 100000 biharis killed number that comes out of hamidur report?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gromell



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## leonblack08

^^^^

Good video Grommell  .Did you upload it just now?Are there more reports like these?

The BBC reporter also mentions that casualities were likely to be higher because of continuous firing for hours and the fact that lots of unarmed civilians living in the area.

These are very important documents.


----------



## toxic_pus

Too much BS to wade through. Picking some up while letting rest of the poop to float.


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Lots more BS. The definition posted was open source, not contrived by me.


That&#8217;s why it is called _re-definition_. You first posted &#8216;definition&#8217; of genocide and then _re-defined_ it how it should be applicable in case of Bangladesh viz. ethnic cleansing. The truth is that the definition encompasses other factors, and massacres by PA fall in those categories, viz. extermination of political class and minority Hindus. 



> The separatists massacred over a hundred thousand innocent men, women and children in less than a month leading to Op. Searchlight. This was more than a law and order situation, a state of war in fact given that a hostile external entity was supporting these people and mass murders and terrorism was being committed by them, and the GoP was absolutely correct in enforcing the writ of the State and its integrity by eliminating those who actively committed those atrocities and those who supported them. In the eyes of the Pakistani State (and any State for that matter) those who committed the atrocities, and those who supported them, were terrorists, barbarians and traitors being sponsored by an external entity.


We are still waiting for evidence of massacre of &#8216;over a hundred thousand innocent men, women and children in less than a month leading to Op. Searchlight&#8217;. The Supplementary HRC report only mentions of deaths during the entire period till December. So does, R.L.Rummel. Meanwhile, a casual look at the White Paper issued by Pakistan reveals something else. 

Below I have put together a small list of death toll from 1 March to 25 March, as claimed by GoP in its White Paper, together with the place of tragedy. If dates are missing it means that no death was reported on that day. Also, (+) indicates separate incident.

1 March, 1971 => *6* killed; Dhaka, Mob attack on Army (+) *1* killed; Army trying to defend a local TV station

3 March, 1971 => *5* killed, 62 wounded; Dhaka (+) *1* killed, 9 injured; Jessore. Guards opened fire on mob to protect Telephone Exchange

4 March, 1971 => *300* killed; Wireless Colony, Chittagong

5 March, 1971 => *57* killed; Khulna

6 March, 1971 => *7* Killed; Dhaka. Police opened fire on escaping prisoners (+) *1* killed, 7 injured; Khulna. Shopkeepers opened fire on looters.

12 March, 1971 => *2* killed, 18 injured. Police opened fire on escaping prisoners.

19 March, 1971 => *2* killed, 5 injured. Troops opened fire.

25 March, 1971 => *3* killed, 17 injured; Saidpur (+) *1* killed, 1 injured; Saidpur. 

So from 1st March to 25th March total number of deaths, according to GoP, was *384*. If deaths due to police firing is excluded, then the number of deaths amounts to *367*. Excluding the Chittagong incident, total death amounts to *67*. The death tolls include East Bengalis as well. No rape figures given, although reported only on 4rth.

Another puzzle that you may want to explain is, why did PA withdraw to barracks on 3rd March, 1971 and stayed there till the midnight of 25th March, 1971 when, if you are to be believed, the situation was as grave as &#8216;100,000 massacres and rapes of non-Bengalis&#8217; would suggest?



> And RJ Rummel's source for making the above assertions? Are there any documents or recorded conversations amongst the Pakistani generals in the Pakistani archives that support the allegations he has made? Or is this just his 'opinion' reflecting popular bias and mythology?


Recorded comments of key players not only in press but also in their memoirs, Newspaper reports of the times, research work done by numerous historians and journalists. 

He gives a long list of references at the end of each chapter.



> Rummel's figures and work are nothing but statistical cherry picking. He has done no original work or research. If you have actually bothered to read through the chapter on Pakistan, all he does is take figures from various (often Indian or Bangladeshi) sources and complies a 'mean' as his result. In his own words:
> *
> "Beneath the consolidated overall toll I show my calculation from the partial estimates (line 81). These are rather close. Consolidating both ranges, I give a final estimate of Pakistan's democide to be 300,000 to 3,000,000, or a prudent 1,500,000 (line 82). "*
> 
> His 'research' involves taking an average of the wildly contradictory figures estimated by various authors to come up with a 'prudent' estimate. The reported figures vary from 28,000 t0 3 million. Why should I not accept the HRC report and its conclusions on how many were killed given that its conclusions were far more researched than anything else I have seen.
> 
> Poppycock is what it is. He has no idea and the wildly differing figures form the various sources he uses indicate that very few others do either. Hence my argument that without an independent and neutral commission to properly investigate these deaths these assertions are nothing but BS thrown out to support one particular view point.


_Au contraire_ , R.J.Rummel does an excellent job. Instead of relying on one source, like your HRC did with Qutubuddin Aziz, he has collated a wide range of research work by reputed and reliable scholars. Among others, it includes extensive research work by Richard Sisson, Leo E. Rose, Anthony Mascarenhas, Robert Payne, Nicole Ball, Milton Leitenberg etc and more importantly GoP&#8217;s White Paper.



> The figure has been backed up through the HRC report. Read the quoted portion again:
> 
> 
> 
> 5. However, recently, a renowned journalist of high-standing, Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, has taken pains to marshal the evidence in a publication called "Blood and Tears." The book contains the harrowing tales of inhuman crimes committed on the helpless Biharis, West Pakistanis and patriotic Bengalis living in East Pakistan during that period. According to various estimates mentioned by Mr. Qutubuddin Aziz, between 100,000 and 500,000 persons were slaughtered during this period by the Awami League militants.
> 
> 6. As far as we can judge, Mr Qutubuddin Aziz has made use of authentic personal accounts furnished by the repatriates whose families, have actually suffered at the hands of the Awami League militants. He has also extensively referred to the contemporary accounts of foreign correspondents then stationed in East Pakistan. The plight of the non-Bengali elements still living in Bangladesh and the insistence of that Government on their large-scale repatriation to Pakistan, are factors which appear to confirm the correctness of the allegations made against the Awami League in this behalf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is far more thorough an investigation and analysis of events than what RJ Rummel has done.
> 
> 500,000 massacred at the high end (by the way, the 150,000 massacred by Bengali militants is also referenced by RJ Rummel in that chapter on Pakistan).
> 
> And the HRC has also been a damning indictment of the military and has recorded atrocities committed by some in the military. I am not contesting that atrocities were committed, but there remains no evidence that they were on the scale alleged, and the 28,000 - 50,000 dead is a plausible number barring an independent and neutral investigation.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The HRC methodology for its conclusions involves more research and proper evidence than one chapter of Rummel's statistical skulduggery.
Click to expand...

Relying on a single book by a Pakistani author, whose objectivity and authenticity of work remains unverified, doesn&#8217;t make &#8216;investigation and analysis of events&#8217; in any way &#8216;thorough&#8217;. Far, far from it. It only reveals the utmost callousness and the severe lack of sincerity on the part of HRC. It only makes HRC report a farce which is not even worth the paper it is typed on.

In any case the figure of 100,000 to 500,000 relates to the entire period of conflict and includes casualties of war in December.

As with the figure of 28,000 to 50,000 Bengali deaths, well, the first few days of crackdown saw death to the tune of, conservatively speaking, 15,000; Hariharpur death camp alone is estimated at 20,000 lives. Anyway, keep telling that fairy-tale to yourself.

Also, you don&#8217;t have qualms in accepting Pakistani witnesses, and authors, as truth and unbiased while rejecting all other witnesses as either &#8216;anecdotal&#8217; or &#8216;propaganda&#8217;. 

On another note, that thing that you are peddling as HRC Report, is actually Supplementary HRC Report, and only Bhutto and HR know how much of it contains the true contents of the original Report. The authenticity of that Supplementary HRC Report is very much a suspect.



> Please, your lies, denial and dishonesty are getting tiresome, especially when your own source refers to the '150,000 non-Bengalis massacred by Bengalis'.
> *
> "I can now put together the various estimates of the Bengali--Awami League--democide (lines 162 to 166). Consolidating these, I get a range of 50,000 to 500,000 killed, more likely 150,000. "*
> 
> Happy now? This is your own Rummel using his statistical skulduggery to come up with the numbers of non-Bengalis killed, which incidentally matches the figures of the HRC report.


I am more than happy with R.J.Rummel&#8217;s work. Thank you very much. 



> And the PA did react, it reacted to terrorism on the scale that even the Taliban have not managed to perpetrate yet. Terrorism supported and encouraged by India.
> 
> 
> Identifying the homes of supporters of terrorists who massacred 150,000 innocent men, women and children does reveal plan - a plan to take those murderers to task.
> 
> The manner of killing collaborators (just because they were academics and intellectuals does not mean they should not have faced the firing squad for treason) suggests plan - a plan to punish traitors and supporters of terrorism.


Apparently summary killings without trial, without giving the accused an opportunity to defend are acceptable. 

Anyway, your entire rebuttal, or shall we say justification for PA&#8217;s genocide, rests on very thin ice of &#8216;150,000+ innocents killed in the run up to the crack down&#8217;. Till you provide concrete evidence, preferably from independent neutral sources, your &#8216;poppycock&#8217; continues to be what it is &#8211; &#8216;poppycock&#8217;.



> As for 'death camps' your use of inaccurate inflammatory rhetoric such as 'death camps' indicates the degree of your dishonesty and the degree to which you are willing to lie and distort history to serve your malicious agenda.


What would Hariharpur qualify as, where, men and women were brought in trucks from as far as _8 miles_, then kept imprisoned in a building, and then shot dead, and then their bodies allowed to float away with tide.


> Yahya's comment was reported by one journalist and more than likely was nothing more than rhetoric. A passing comment in an interview (that may or may not be accurately reported) does not establish intent to actually kill, and the controversy has been covered in other works that dismiss it. Keep clinging onto such tripe though, if it helps sustain your xenophobic hatred of West Pakistanis.


First, prove that it was 'inaccurate' reporting or a mere 'passing comment'. Till then it stands.

Second, Yahya, and Bhutto, had made some more comments that will embarrass you even more. Lets not get there.



> Yes, accounting for 'most' of the dead bodies, accounts from multiple sources such as the villagers (there are surely more than one) who witnessed these acts, the coming forward of victims and relatives of victims and others (which resulted in extremely low numbers). All you have done is provide isolated anecdotal accounts which, even if all true, do not in any way add up to the numbers dead that are being claimed.


&#8216;Most&#8217; dead bodies couldn&#8217;t possibly be accounted for because &#8216;most&#8217; of them were dumped in rivers so that the bodies would be carried away into the sea and thus completely lost, or result in quick decay while the rest were buried in secret mass graves, which are being discovered even 20-30 years after the incidents. &#8216;Majority&#8217; of the bodies which couldn&#8217;t be disposed off quickly, was indeed discovered and they do point to the overwhelming number of deaths. These atrocious acts of genocide are corroborated by numerous eyewitnesses, some of whom were Europeans and Americans either on vacation or in employment, and not just one or two letters to the editor &#8211; although there were some. These Europeans and American eyewitnesses also gave deposition to International Commission of Jurists, who due to unfortunate circumstances couldn&#8217;t come down to Bangladesh and examine Bangladeshi witnesses and complete their investigations. (Pakistan had already disassociated itself from any such investigation.) 

Then there are eyewitness accounts of number of foreign press reporters. Before the crack down of 25th March, these reporters were &#8216;forcibly confined&#8217; to a hotel. But a couple of intrepid journalists managed to escape and one of them was Simon Dring of _The Daily Telegraph_. He roamed the city during the first few days of mayhem and later reported from Bangkok, on 30th March, 1971. It made front page news. An excerpt.

&#8216;_In the name of "God and a united Pakistan", Dacca is today a crushed and frightened city. After 24 hours of *ruthless, cold-blooded shelling by the Pakistan Army*, as many as 7,000 people are dead, large areas have been leveled and East Pakistan's fight for independence has been brutally put to an end. [...] Even so *people are still being shot at the slightest provocation, and buildings are still being indiscriminately destroyed*. [...] It is impossible accurately to assess what all this has so far cost in terms of innocent human lives. But reports beginning to filter in from the outlying areas, Chittagong, Comilla and Jessore put the figure, including Dacca, in the region of 15,000 dead. Only the horror of the military action can be properly gauged - the students dead in their beds, the butchers in the markets killed behind their stalls, *the women and children roasted alive in their houses*, the *Pakistanis of Hindu religion taken out and shot en masse*, the bazaars and shopping areas razed by fire and the Pakistani flag that now flies over every building in capital._&#8217;

Questioning the number of victims coming forward to claim compensation, the usual cheep shot by the genocide deniers, is just another attempt at deflection. The number of rape victims that claimed compensation is low because of social reasons. Dr Geoffrey Davis, an Australian doctor, visited Bangladesh 1972 to rehabilitate these sexually molested women. He helped not only in abortion but treated numerous cases of venereal diseases, contracted primarily while attempting traditional methods of abortion. He quotes a mind boggling figure of, and I even hesitate to type, 400,000 sexual molestation cases. 


> Thanks - love debunking Indian lies and propaganda by manufacturing my own lies and propaganda.


There, completed it for you.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Windjammer

gromell said:


> YouTube - 26th March 1971: Bangladesh Genocide



Who was the lesser of two evils.......................???



Videos - Stranded Pakistanis, Biharis, Stateless in Bangladesh and Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## leonblack08

^^^^^^^^^^


Why didn't the Pakistani Govt. take them back after independence?It was their duty to do so.We brought back the Bangladeshis *who wanted to live in Bangladesh*,after independence.

In a country where its own people are deprived of basic right,*how can one expect better rights for refugees?*

Do you think Bangladesh is UK or what?

*I mean what the hell are you trying to prove here?Just want to derail the thread I believe,as you have no other argument left to counter it.*

You are comparing murdering of unarmed civilians with this?
How pathetic and cheap attempt.

BTW,for your information,all these Bihari people have been given *Bangladeshi citizenship 2 years ago.And they even voted in last election.*They even have their own representing them.The new generation are slowly moving towards development.

You don't need to shed tears for them,because* you did not do it when it was needed.*Still some elderly Biharis wants to go back to Pakistan.They did not want Bangladeshi citizenship when offered.But the question is does their country wants them?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## k_n

Windjammer said:


> Who was the lesser of two evils.......................???
> 
> 
> 
> Videos - Stranded Pakistanis, Biharis, Stateless in Bangladesh and Pakistan



Why doesnt Pakistan accepts them as its citizens ?
Again , due to 'Ethnic Differences' rehabilitation of stranded Biharis has been done away with , although many Biharis manged to leave Erst. East Pak and came to West Pakistan in the immediate aftermath of the conflict ( Biharis were trickling into West Pak throughout 1971 ) but a hundred thausand are still stranded !
If Bengalis are mistreating the Biharis then let them be evil but why doesnt Pakistan allows them to move into their country . Bihari muslims , in my opinion suffered more than Punjabis during partition , all because they were promised a muslim welfare state Pakistan . Its moral duty of GoP to grant them pakistani citizenship .


----------



## Windjammer

leonblack08 said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> Why didn't the Pakistani Govt. take them back after independence?It was their duty to do so.
> 
> In a country where its own people are deprived of basic right,*how can one expect better rights for refugees?*
> 
> *I mean what the hell are you trying to prove here?Just want to derail the thread I believe.*
> 
> You are comparing murdering of unarmed civilians with this?
> How pathetic and cheap attempt.
> 
> BTW,for your information,all these Bihari people have been given *Bangladeshi citizenship 2 years ago.And they even voted in last election.*They even have their own representing them.The new generation are slowly moving towards development.
> 
> You don't need to shed tears for them,because* you did not do it when it was needed.*Still some elderly Biharis wants to go back to Pakistan.They did not want Bangladeshi citizenship when offered.But the question is does their country wants them?


And what the hell are yous trying to prove by posting videos of an even earlier period.?
The Biharis were also common civilians at the time, what makes one more vulnerable than the other.
Those were testing times for all and what happened 40 odd years earlier can't be reversed but there are characters who still glorify over these sad events.


----------



## leonblack08

According to Agnostic Muslim,

the Bengali intellects were collaborators and traitors.That's why they were massacred on 14th August.

So the same theory applies here too.
These people were collaborators and traitors in bangladesh's point of view.

Not justifying any brutality,but I should point out that these Biharis indulged in killing during liberation war.And as the Pakistani forces surrendered,they faced the wrath of the former victims.

But how does this compare with the *unprovoked killing of civilians by the military of their own country??*


----------



## leonblack08

Windjammer said:


> And what the hell are yous trying to prove by posting videos of an even earlier period.?
> The Biharis were also common civilians at the time, what makes one more vulnerable than the other.
> Those were testing times for all and what happened 40 odd years earlier can't be reversed but there are characters who still glorify over these sad events.



Which video are you talking about?

I only posted one video in this thread,which completely goes with the thread's topic,"Insurgency was controlled militarily",while I was replying to Agnostic Muslim.

*
What makes one more vulnerable than other?*

I gave you the reply on the previous post.


----------



## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^^

Most of us weren't even around during that eventful period, and we like to read and believe our version of history hence it feels like chewing on "Kala Naga". The Army was sent in to quash Indian backed insurgency, just as it's conducting now in FATA areas of Pakistan. By your theory one can argue that even now it's killing it's own citizens, but isn't that like saying, you can shoot but i won't fire back. What happened in the heat of the battle was regrettable yet unavoidable, however in the aftermath there were figures with vested interests who incited others to bare down on the subjects.


----------



## notsuperstitious

There's a clear attempt to lower standards here by equating summary killings of civilian women and men with the death punishment many countries prescribe for people found guily of treason in war time.

How do you try people for treason, by looking down their pants? By making lists of professors and doctors?


----------



## leonblack08

Windjammer said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Most of us weren't even around during that eventful period, and we like to read and believe our version of history hence it feels like chewing on "Kala Naga". *The Army was sent in to quash Indian backed insurgency*, just as it's conducting now in FATA areas of Pakistan. By your theory one can argue that even now it's killing it's own citizens, but isn't that like saying, you can shoot but i won't fire back. What happened in the heat of the battle was regrettable yet unavoidable, however in the aftermath there were figures with vested interests who incited others to bare down on the subjects.



I get your point completely.But I would like to point out some thing extra.

In an interview during 1971,Gen.Zia ur Rahman said that ,"When the news of army cracking down on civilians came,we decided it was too much".And hence East Bengal Regiment mutinied and Zia on behalf of Mujib declared independence from Chittagong.

Now this same Ziaur Rahman and his men won the highest number of awards during 1965 war.he himself was "sitar-e-jannat".When people like him mutinied,it is clear that instead of cracking down on insurgents,(*which was not needed in the first place had AL was given the deserving power to rule Pakistan.*),W Pakistan army cracked down on unarmed civilians,mainly students and professors in the university area.

So the blame should go the wrong approach of the Military ruler and Bhutto.because after 25th March,there was no turning back.

Because Mujib wanted a Federation,not to be separated from Pakistan.But the crackdown on civilians just facilitated the Partition of Pakistan.


And at last,I agree once again that atrocities were committed by both sides,but the magnitude of war crime committed by W Pakistani troops and their local collaborators were much higher.


----------



## Windjammer

leonblack08 said:


> I get your point completely.But I would like to point out some thing extra.
> 
> In an interview during 1971,Gen.Zia ur Rahman said that ,"When the news of army cracking down on civilians came,we decided it was too much".And hence East Bengal Regiment mutinied and Zia on behalf of Mujib declared independence from Chittagong.
> 
> Now this same Ziaur Rahman and his men won the highest number of awards during 1965 war.he himself was "sitar-e-jannat".When people like him mutinied,it is clear that instead of cracking down on insurgents,(*which was not needed in the first place had AL was given the deserving power to rule Pakistan.*),W Pakistan army cracked down on unarmed civilians,mainly students and professors in the university area.
> 
> So the blame should go the wrong approach of the Military ruler and Bhutto.because after 25th March,there was no turning back.
> 
> Because Mujib wanted a Federation,not to be separated from Pakistan.But the crackdown on civilians just facilitated the Partition of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> And at last,I agree once again that atrocities were committed by both sides,but the magnitude of war crime committed by W Pakistani troops and their local collaborators were much higher.


Elsewhere the same topic has been discussed to the bone, however let me ask you this question, No doubt East Pakistan was also my country, how did Mujib feel about the whole scenario, relatively speaking, Wasn't West Pakistan also his country...? Why was he adamant in shifting everything to Dacca, including the Capital, the State Bank and Naval HQ. Why he just couldn't come to Islamabad and run the country. ????


----------



## oceanx

Righteous_Fire said:


> ...
> When due rights are not appreciated, brotherhood changes into contempt, contempt to anger and anger to hatred
> ...



The man (or woman) who wrote this has what it takes to be a teacher of men! His/her original needs to be read by those across the Taiwan Straight as well ...

Just my humble 2 cents.


----------



## blain2

toxic_pus said:


> I understand, you don&#8217;t have an answer. I will leave you at that.



I am very much at peace not having an answer for you. I am sure you are over it.


----------



## leonblack08

Windjammer said:


> Elsewhere the same topic has been discussed to the bone, however let me ask you this question, No doubt East Pakistan was also my country, how did Mujib feel about the whole scenario, relatively speaking, Wasn't West Pakistan also his country...? Why was he adamant in shifting everything to Dacca, including the Capital, the State Bank and Naval HQ. Why he just couldn't come to Islamabad and run the country. ????



We are going off-topic,but I will give you a reply.

In 1965,East Pakistan was left open as a bait for Indians to invade.No defence was planned to protect East Pakistan.
look at the irony,the soldiers of East Bengal Regiment were strapping mines on their bodies to go under Indian tanks *to save Lahore*.

If the rulers really felt that East Pakistan was their country,why didn't they do anything to protect East Pakistan from India??

Then came 1970 cyclone,hundreds of thousands died mainly due to the mismanagement of the Central Govt.

Now let us come to what Sheikh Mujib wanted through 6-points.



> 1. *The constitution should provide for a Federation of Pakistan in its true sense based on the Lahore Resolution and the parliamentary form of government with supremacy of a Legislature directly elected on the basis of universal adult franchise.*
> 
> 
> 2. The federal government should deal with only two subjects: Defence and Foreign Affairs, and all other residual subjects should be vested in the federating states.
> 
> 3. Two separate, but freely convertible currencies for two wings should be introduced; *or if this is not feasible, there should be one currency for the whole country, but effective constitutional provisions should be introduced to stop the flight of capital from East to West Pakistan.* Furthermore,* a separate Banking Reserve should be established and separate fiscal and monetary policy be adopted for East Pakistan.*
> 
> 
> 4. The power of taxation and revenue collection should be vested in the federating units and the federal centre would have no such power. The federation would be entitled to a share in the state taxes to meet its expenditures.
> 
> 
> 5. *There should be two separate accounts for the foreign exchange earnings of the two wings*; the foreign exchange requirements of the federal government should be met by the two wings equally or in a ratio to be fixed; *indigenous products should move free of duty between the two wings, and the constitution should empower the units to establish trade links with foreign countries.*
> 
> 6. *East Pakistan should have a separate militia or paramilitary force.*



Now tell me,what's so much about this,that could have partitioned Pakistan?

If these points were not ensured,how could we been sure if in another future battle with India,the "Western brothers" will not leave us as a *"BAIT"*.

How could we been sure that another disastrous management wouldn't have taken place in future?
Central Govt. definitely acts slower,especially on these issues.Don't they?

Had these points been agreed,we would still be one country.



Windjammer said:


> Why was he adamant in shifting everything to Dacca, including the Capital, the State Bank and Naval HQ. Why he just couldn't come to Islamabad and run the country. ????



The six-points doesn't mention that.

My knowledge is a bit limited on this issue.However,I will still give a reply.

*1*.What was the problem if Naval HQ was shifted to East Pakistan?wasn't it Pakistan?
The army and Air HQ were to remain in West,if I am not wrong.So what's the problem of shifting Naval HQ to EP.

The real problem was,that the military rulers of Pakistan at that time were fond of *"Martial race theory"*.Since we Bengalis are not a part of that so called race,it poked their ego.



*2*.What was the problem if the capital was in Dhaka?East Pakistan was producing majority of the foreign money,*using which Islamabad was being built.*
Even the plan for Pakistan,if I am not wrong,was first proposed in Dhaka.Correct me if I am wrong.


If the rulers at that time really had thought their fellow citizens as brothers,there would have been no 1971 at first place.
Please don't come up with cooked up story that RAW planned everything.
*A whole nation can not be fooled so easily by an intelligence agency which was just at its infancy.*This is totally ridiculous.

The resentment grew with years of neglect.It does not happen over night.


We are straying off-topic,if you want to debate further,open a new thread I will join you.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Toxic_Pus, fateh71 and Leonblack08:*


fateh71 said:


> Impartial inquiry? The US state department sources are impartial and authentic enough for me as they were staunch supporters of pakistan then and YET their records clealy show what i've said.


The declassified US State Department sources, as Blain pointed out earlier, also indicate that the death toll was lower than the one claimed by some:



> The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.
> 
> *During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.
> 
> They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.
> *
> *Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country&#8217;s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.
> 
> Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.*
> 
> Prof Sarmila Bose, an Indian academic, told the seminar that allegations of Pakistani army personnel raping Bengali women were grossly exaggerated.
> 
> Based on her extensive interviews with eyewitnesses, the study also determines the pattern of conflict as three-layered: West Pakistan versus East Pakistan, East Pakistanis (pro-Independence) versus East Pakistanis (pro-Union) and the fateful war between India and Pakistan.
> 
> Prof Bose noted that no neutral study of the conflict has been done and reports that are passed on as part of history are narratives that strengthen one point of view by rubbishing the other. The Bangladeshi narratives, for instance, focus on the rape issue and use that not only to demonize the Pakistan army but also exploit it as a symbol of why it was important to break away from (West) Pakistan.
> 
> Prof Bose, a Bengali herself and belonging to the family of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, emphasized the need for conducting independent studies of the 1971 conflict to bring out the facts.
> Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers -DAWN - National; July 7, 2005



Now eat crow.


> While asking for impartial inquiry you yourself have been throwing that 100000 biharis killed number that comes out of hamidur report?


That would be because Indians such as yourself have been fed these lies and one-sided propaganda, and either are too stupid to read beyond what you are spoon fed in order to inculcate hate for Pakistanis, or deliberately choose to remain ignorant.

In the case of Toxic_Pus it is obvious that the reason is his own dishonesty and duplicity, since the accounts of the atrocities committed by Bengalis on non-Bengalis are narrated in graphic detail, and figures of over a hundred thousand killed presented in the source he himself has used make his case against Pakistan,_ Rummel's Death by Government_.

Here is an excerpt:



> _"Throughout East Pakistan, non-Bengali communities were assaulted, their members mutilated, tortured and butchered. Let the words of Anthony Mascarenhas, whose vigorous condemnation of the Pakistan democide in East Pakistan established his credentials, speak to this:
> 
> 'Thousands of families of unfortunate Muslims, many of them refugees from Bihar who chose Pakistan at the time of the partition riots in 1947, were mercilessly wiped out. Women were raped, or had their breasts torn out with specially fashioned knives. Children did not escape the horror: the lucky ones were killed with their parents; but many thousands of others must go through what life remains for them with eyes gouged out and limbs amputated. More than 20,000 bodies of non-Bengalis have been found in the main towns, such as Chittagong, Khulna and Jessore. The real toll, I was told everywhere in East Bengal, may have been as high as 100,000, for thousands of non-Bengalis have vanished without a trace. The Government of Pakistan has let the world know about that first horror. What it has suppressed is the second and worse horror which followed when its own army took over the killing. West Pakistan officials privately calculate that altogether both sides have killed 250,000 people.'"_



The total of 250,000 killed, including over a hundred thousand non-Bengalis before Operation Searchlight began, also fits in with the views of the Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Indian scholars at the conference organized by the State Department.

So no, there was no 'genocide', there were no millions killed by the PA, and while atrocities were committed by both sides and are regrettable, neither side is blameless here.

If you do want to argue genocide, then it was genocide in response to the genocide unleashed by the Bengali population of Eats Pakistan on its non-Bengali inhabitants, and Bangladeshis must first and foremost hold their own to task, including their 'freedom fighters' and ask why mass murder was committed by them, and whether their actions invited the equally criminal retaliation by the PA in the aftermath of the Bengali atrocities.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

And here are some more accounts of the atrocities, and an insight into the rage that blinded some of the Pakistan Army, its officers and soldiers, into committing equally criminal acts:



> A description of the indiscriminate killing during this period has been given by an American engineer who was working on a construction project at Kaptai, near Chittagong:
> 
> _Shortly after March 1, we received word from some British friends in Chittagong that Bengali mobs had begun looting and burning the homes and businesses of the West Pakistani residents and were beating, and in some cases killing, West Pakistanis as well as Hindus.
> 
> On the night of March 9, my expatriate staff and I decided to depart Kaptai. As we passed through Chittagong we noted three of four fires. A service station attendant told my driver these were homes and businesses of 'Biharis'.
> 
> We returned to Kaptai on March 23. There was a small Army garrison stationed at Kaptai. They were a part of the East African Rifles which was a regiment of Bengalis with mostly Punjabi officers and N.C.O.'s. The garrison was quartered in an old school building about 400 yards from our residences.
> 
> On the morning of March 26 around 9 a.m. we heard shooting coming from the school. I went to investigate and found a large crowd gathered there. Some of the crowd was shooting toward one of the upstairs school rooms. I was told that the previous night all Punjabis in the Army garrison (about 26 or 27) had been arrested and locked in the school-room. Now someone in the crowd was claiming that shots had come from the room. After removing a sheet of roofing several men with guns gathered around the opening and began firing into the room. After a few minutes they came down and began dispersing the crowd. I later learned that the commanding officer, who was under house arrest within sight of the school, was slowly beaten and bayoneted to death as his staff was being shot. The officer's wife, in a state of terror, asked the mob to kill her too. She was beaten to death. Their small son was spared and taken in by a Bengali family.
> 
> I met immediately with the local Awami League leader and the Power Station Manager, a Bengali named Shamsuddin. The Awami League leader said the people had been told to remain peaceful and that he had peace patrols roaming the area, but that he could not control the large mobs. Shamsuddin told me that the mobs had killed many Biharis the night before and thrown their bodies over the spillway of the dam. He said he just managed to talk the mob out of taking his three West Pakistani engineers but felt they were still in great danger .
> 
> All India radio began an almost continuous propaganda barrage of East Pakistan. This inflammatory propaganda roused the mobs in Kaptai to new frenzies. After all known Biharis, including at least two of our employees, had been killed, a search was begun for 'imposters'. On about the third day of the trouble we saw two Bengali soldiers marching away a servant who worked in the housing area. A few seconds later we heard a shot and ran out into the road. The servant had fallen partway down a ravine. A crowd quickly gathered and, when it became apparent the servant was still alive, dragged him up onto the road. One of the soldiers motioned the crowd away, knelt and very deliberately fired another bullet into the body. After a short while the death-Iimp body was dragged and rolled into the back of a pickup and hauled away. It had been found out that although the servant had been living in Kaptai over 20 years, he was born in India. By this time the mobs were killing anyone not a 'son-of-the-soil'.
> 
> Friends and acquaintances in Chittagong said that on the night of March 25 Bengali mobs descended on the homes of all known Biharis and especially those military personnel living outside their cantonment. The mobs slaughtered entire families and I heard many horrible descriptions of this massacre. The mutinous East Pakistan Rifles along with irregulars
> 
> laid siege to the Chittagong military cantonment. After seven or eight days the siege was broken by a relief detachment which had force-marched from the cantonment at Camilla. I am told that when the entrapped garrison broke out it was with a terrible vengeance. The slightest resistance was cause for annihilation of everyone in a particular area. For instance, the Army made a habit of destroying, by tank cannon, everything within a wide radius of hostile roadblocks. I saw the remains of a completely razed three to four square block area of Chittagong near the entrance to the port area. I was told that after encountering resistance here the Army encircled and set fire to the entire area and shot all who fled. Hundreds of men, women and children were said to have perished here.
> 
> When the East Pakistan Rifles and Bengali irregulars began retreating from the fighting around Chittagong, many of them passed through Kaptai en route to Rangamati and the Indian border areas. These renegades began looting their fellow Bengalis as they came through Kaptai. They also began to murder the surviving wives and children of previously killed Biharis. They demanded and took food, clothing and other supplies from the local residents. By April 10, everyone in Kaptai, including myself had become terrified of these deserters. Mr. Shamsuddin suggested, and I agreed, that he and several members of his staff, along with families, move into the houses around my residence.
> 
> After great pressure from implied threats, Shamsuddin had finally banded his three West Pakistani engineers over to a mob after he was told they would not be harmed, only held in jail at Rangamati. Shamsuddin agreed to hand over the engineers provided two Bengali members of his staff be allowed to accompany the engineers on their trip to the jail. This was agreed and they were taken away. Everyone felt certain these men would be killed but they were spared. When I last heard of them they were safe with their families in Dacca. Shamsuddin, although a Bengali, attempted on several occasions, at great risk to himself and his family, to stop the killings by the mobs but with little success. Also he saw to it that the existing generating units remained in operation throughout the trouble.
> 
> An Army unit arrived in Kaptai on the morning of April 14. Except for those in our area Kaptai and surroundings were completely deserted. The unit consisted of a tank, two jeeps, a half-track and about 250 infantry. As they approached the tank fired blanks from its cannon and the soldiers fired intermittent bursts from their weapons. The object seemed to be to cower the inhabitants with the noise. The army immediately began burning the shanties ('bustees') in which most of the people had lived. The bazaar and a few permanent type dwellings were also burned.
> 
> While his troops were searching the area, the commanding officer and his staff took tea in our residence. They congratulated and warmly praised Shamsuddin and his staff for their attempts to maintain order and for keeping the generating units in operation. The C.O. said that the Army's objective was to restore normality as quickly as possible. One of the officers told of a terrible scene they had come upon in a town about 10 miles from Kaptai called Chandagborna. About 40 to 50 women and children -survivors of previously killed Biharis - had been taken into a loft building where they had been hacked, stabbed and beaten to death. He said this grizzIy scene had driven the troops to an almost incontrollable rage and he said it was fortunate that Kaptai was deserted except for us.
> 
> [Mr. Shamsuddin was later taken from the house by two Pakistan soldiers.] We ran after them. They were taken behind the fire station which was about 250 yards away. Just as we arrived at the station we heard two shots. Shamsuddin and another man lay dead on the grass, each with a bullet through his chest.
> 
> The officer-in-charge appeared and questioned the soldier who had done the killing. We later found this man was a Major. After questioning by the O.I.C. the Major's weapon was taken and the Major was ordered immediately to Chittagong. The O.I.C. told us the whole thing was a tragic mistake. Later I was told what had happened. While directing the search of the area the Major and his driver came upon a woman with a small child who told that her husband and son had been killed by the Bengalis. She charged that Shamsuddin was the leader of the mobs and instigator of the atrocities. The women was taken to the fire station and the Major and his aide set off to find Shamsuddin. When Shamsuddin was brought before the woman she immediately identified him and the Major instantly carried out the executions. The man who died with Shamsuddin had also been accused by the woman, who was crazed by fear and grief.'_

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

And of course this account from earlier:




Zob said:


> The Telegraph - Calcutta : Look
> 
> *The truth about the Jessore massacre​*
> *The massacre may have been genocide, but it wasn&#8217;t committed by the Pakistan army*. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists, reports Sarmila Bose
> 
> BITTER TRUTH: Civilians massacred in Jessore in 1971 ? but by whom?
> 
> RECOGNITION DENIED: Father and son killed in Dhaka in 1971
> The bodies lie strewn on the ground. All are adult men, in civilian clothes. A uniformed man with a rifle slung on his back is seen on the right. A smattering of onlookers stand around, a few appear to be working, perhaps to remove the bodies.
> 
> The caption of the photo is just as grim as its content: &#8216;April 2, 1971: Genocide by the Pakistan Occupation Force at Jessore.&#8217; It is in a book printed by Bangladeshis trying to commemorate the victims of their liberation war.
> 
> It is a familiar scene. There are many grisly photographs of dead bodies from 1971, published in books, newspapers and websites.
> 
> Reading another book on the 1971 war, there was that photograph again ? taken from a slightly different angle, but the bodies and the scene of the massacre were the same. But wait a minute! The caption here reads: &#8216;The bodies of businessmen murdered by rebels in Jessore city.&#8217;
> 
> The alternative caption is in The East Pakistan Tragedy, by L.F. Rushbrook Williams, written in 1971 before the independence of Bangladesh. Rushbrook Williams is strongly in favour of the Pakistan government and highly critical of the Awami League. However, he was a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, had served in academia and government in India, and with the BBC and The Times. There was no reason to think he would willfully mislabel a photo of a massacre.
> 
> And so, in a bitter war where so many bodies had remained unclaimed, here is a set of murdered men whose bodies are claimed by both sides of the conflict! Who were these men? And who killed them?
> 
> It turns out that the massacre in Jessore may have been genocide, but it wasn&#8217;t committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists.
> 
> It is but one incident, but illustrative of the emerging reality that the conflict in 1971 in East Pakistan was a lot messier than most have been led to believe. Pakistan&#8217;s military regime did try to crush the Bengali rebellion by force, and many Bengalis did die for the cause of Bangladesh&#8217;s independence. Yet, not every allegation hurled against the Pakistan army was true, while many crimes committed in the name of Bengali nationalism remain concealed.
> 
> Once one took a second look, some of the Jessore bodies are dressed in salwar kameez ? an indication that they were either West Pakistanis or &#8216;Biharis&#8217;, the non-Bengali East Pakistanis who had migrated from northern India.
> 
> As accounts from the involved parties ? Pakistan, Bangladesh and India ? tend to be highly partisan, it was best to search for foreign eye witnesses, if any. My search took me to newspaper archives from 35 years ago. The New York Times carried the photo on April 3, 1971, captioned: &#8216;East Pakistani civilians, said to have been slain by government soldiers, lie in Jessore square before burial.&#8217; The Washington Post carried it too, right under its masthead: &#8216;The bodies of civilians who East Pakistani sources said were massacred by the Pakistani army lie in the streets of Jessore.&#8217; &#8220;East Pakistani sources said&#8221;, and without further investigation, these august newspapers printed the photo.
> 
> In fact, if the Americans had read The Times of London of April 2 and Sunday Times of April 4 or talked to their British colleagues, they would have had a better idea of what was happening in Jessore. In a front-page lead article on April 2 entitled &#8216;Mass Slaughter of Punjabis in East Bengal,&#8217; The Times war correspondent Nicholas Tomalin wrote an eye-witness account of how he and a team from the BBC programme Panorama saw Bengali troops and civilians march 11 Punjabi civilians to the market place in Jessore where they were then massacred. &#8220;Before we were forced to leave by threatening supporters of Shaikh Mujib,&#8221; wrote Tomalin, &#8220;we saw another 40 Punjabi &#8220;spies&#8221; being taken towards the killing ground?&#8221;
> 
> Tomalin followed up on April 4 in Sunday Times with a detailed description of the &#8220;mid-day murder&#8221; of Punjabis by Bengalis, along with two photos ? one of the Punjabi civilians with their hands bound at the Jessore headquarters of the East Pakistan Rifles (a Bengal formation which had mutinied and was fighting on the side of the rebels), and another of their dead bodies lying in the square. He wrote how the Bengali perpetrators tried to deceive them and threatened them, forcing them to leave. As other accounts also testify, the Bengali &#8220;irregulars&#8221; were the only ones in central Jessore that day, as the Pakistan government forces had retired to their cantonment.
> 
> Though the military action had started in Dhaka on March 25 night, most of East Pakistan was still out of the government&#8217;s control. Like many other places, &#8220;local followers of Sheikh Mujib were in control&#8221; in Jessore at that time. Many foreign media reported the killings and counter-killings unleashed by the bloody civil war, in which the army tried to crush the Bengali rebels and Bengali nationalists murdered non-Bengali civilians.
> 
> Tomalin records the local Bengalis&#8217; claim that the government soldiers had been shooting earlier and he was shown other bodies of people allegedly killed by army firing. But the massacre of the Punjabi civilians by Bengalis was an event he witnessed himself. Tomalin was killed while covering the Yom Kippur war of 1973, but his eye-witness accounts solve the mystery of the bodies of Jessore.
> 
> There were, of course, genuine Bengali civilian victims of the Pakistan army during 1971. Chandhan Sur and his infant son were killed on March 26 along with a dozen other men in Shankharipara, a Hindu area in Dhaka. The surviving members of the Sur family and other residents of Shankharipara recounted to me the dreadful events of that day. Amar, the elder son of the dead man, gave me a photo of his father and brother&#8217;s bodies, which he said he had come upon at a Calcutta studio while a refugee in India. The photo shows a man&#8217;s body lying on his back, clad in a lungi, with the infant near his feet.
> 
> Amar Sur&#8217;s anguish about the death of his father and brother (he lost a sister in another shooting incident) at the hands of the Pakistan army is matched by his bitterness about their plight in independent Bangladesh. They may be the children of a &#8216;shaheed,&#8217; but their home was declared &#8216;vested property&#8217; by the Bangladesh government, he said, in spite of documents showing that it belonged to his father. Even the Awami League ? support for whom had cost this Hindu locality so many lives in 1971 ? did nothing to redress this when they formed the government.
> 
> In the book 1971: documents on crimes against humanity committed by Pakistan army and their agents in Bangladesh during 1971, published by the Liberation War Museum, Dhaka, I came across the same photo of the Sur father and son&#8217;s dead bodies. It is printed twice, one a close-up of the child only, with the caption: &#8216;Innocent women were raped and then killed along with their children by the barbarous Pakistan Army&#8217;. Foreigners might just have mistaken the &#8216;lungi&#8217; worn by Sur for a &#8216;saree&#8217;, but surely Bangladeshis can tell a man in a &#8216;lungi&#8217; when they see one! And why present the same &#8216;body&#8217; twice?
> 
> *The contradictory claims on the photos of the dead of 1971 reveal in part the difficulty of recording a messy war, but also illustrate vividly what happens when political motives corrupt the cause of justice and humanity. The political need to spin a neat story of Pakistani attackers and Bengali victims made the Bengali perpetrators of the massacre of Punjabi civilians in Jessore conceal their crime and blame the army. The New York Times and The Washington Post &#8220;bought&#8221; that story too. *The media&#8217;s reputation is salvaged in this case by the even-handed eye-witness reports of Tomalin in The Times and Sunday Times.
> 
> As for the hapless Chandhan Sur and his infant son, the political temptation to smear the enemy to the maximum by accusing him of raping and killing women led to Bangladeshi nationalists denying their own martyrs their rightful recognition. In both cases, the true victims ?Punjabis and Bengalis, Hindus and Muslims ? were cast aside, their suffering hijacked, by political motivations of others that victimised them a second time around.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kharian_Beast

Whether or not there were massacres or atrocities perpetrated by the East Pakistani forces is not something that will answer Pakistan centric issues. Frankly there isn't much development in this topic by our government because it does not want to apologize for fighting India. Understandably so. Let's talk about the issues for Pakistan (West at the time).

The reality of the 1971 scenario is that East Pakistan was lost, period. Since 1947 India and Bengali locals had ample time, 24 years to snap East Pakistan if it was indeed a cakewalk. But it wasn't because a large force was present and well entrenched (West Pakistan). One can easily point fingers and raise questions of professionalism in such cases, I in my own beliefs hold firm that the 150,000+ were unprofessional during the course of the entire episode up till the surrender and consequent abandonment of POW's.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

For those interested in reading Sarmila Bose's analysis of the conflict, in which she argues that Bangladeshi and Indian claims are grossly exaggerated, here is a link to the PDF file: http://www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net/uploaded_files/studies_and_reports/AnatomyOfViolence.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Kharian_Beast said:


> Whether or not there were massacres or atrocities perpetrated by the East Pakistani forces is not the issue...the reality of the scenario is that East Pakistan was lost. One can easily point fingers and raise questions of professionalism in such cases, I in my own beliefs hold firm that the 150,000+ were unprofessional during the course of the entire episode up till the surrender and consequent abandonment of POW's.



Well actually on this thread, given the title, the 'issue' are the atrocities.

And highlighting the atrocities perpetrated by the Bengalis on non-Bengalis, before the Army crackdown on the 25th of March, is essential since it gives context to what followed and why.

It is also essential to point out that there are widely differing estimates on how many people were in fact killed in the violence in East Pakistan. The consensus from the conference held by the State Department appears to be that the total deaths were around 300,000. Half or a little less than half would appear to be non-Bengalis killed by mobs and separatists.

I would prefer to close the thread at this point since the only direction I see it going in now is both sides just copy posting articles and videos of the atrocities 'their side' suffered.

I think it has been clearly established that atrocities were committed by both sides, and their is clearly a lot for both sides to regret. I think we shall leave it at that.

This latest thread in fact started out separate from the the 'atrocities in 1971' thread, and was more specifically focused on the question of whether or not the Pakistan Army had the insurgency under control in East Pakistan, had Indian intervention not occurred. 

Some people however had to troll and inject the usual 'genocide' and what not flames and the thread ended up being merged with the thread on atrocities.

I believe this thread has served its purpose, as has discussion on this issue on this forum. Atrocities by both sides have been highlighted, and claims made and in some cases debunked.

Hopefully next time discussion of events in 1971 will remain focused on the subject of the thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## blain2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For those interested in reading Sarmila Bose's analysis of the conflict, in which she argues that Bangladeshi and Indian claims are grossly exaggerated, here is a link to the PDF file: http://www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net/uploaded_files/studies_and_reports/AnatomyOfViolence.pdf



Thank you for posting.


----------



## angeldemon_007

NEW DELHI  It is exactly 40 years since the Pakistani military regime of Yahya Khan initiated Operation Searchlight in March 1971. That military expedition was but the latest in a series of pogroms carried out to intimidate the restive population of what was then called East Pakistan  todays independent Bangladesh. What followed was one of the worst massacres in human history, now all but forgotten by the international community.

Pakistan was created by the partition of British India in 1947, but its territory was divided into two enclaves separated by hundreds of miles. While they shared a religion, Islam, there were major cultural and linguistic differences between East and West Pakistan.

In the east, there was a strong sense of being Bengali, and a sizeable Hindu minority continued to live in the province. There was, moreover, strong resentment that political power lay in the hands of western-based politicians and generals who were blatantly insensitive to Bengali demands. It seemed to many that, with the creation of Pakistan, East Pakistan had merely exchanged one form of colonialism for another. And, as Bengali demands for autonomy gained momentum, the response became more repressive.

In November 1970, tropical cyclone Bhola struck East Pakistan, killing between 300,000 and 500,000 people. Bhola is still considered one of the worst natural disasters on record, and the military dictatorships lukewarm relief efforts incensed the Bengali population.

So, when Pakistans military leaders finally allowed elections in late December 1970, East Pakistan voted overwhelmingly for the Bengali-nationalist Awami League, which won 167 of 169 seats in the province. Since East Pakistan was more populous than West Pakistan, the elections outcome raised the prospect that the Bengalis would now rule the country as whole. This was not palatable to the Punjabi-dominated military brass or to Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the leader of West Pakistans largest political party. The elections were canceled, and East Pakistan erupted in open revolt.

Yahya Khan responded by sending in the troops. The result was a genocide in which as many as three million people, particularly minorities and intellectuals, were killed. Dhaka Universitys residential halls were particularly targeted. Up to 700 students were killed in a single attack on Jagannath Hall. Several well-known professors, both Hindu and Muslim, were murdered. Hundreds of thousands of women were systematically raped in the countryside. By September 1971, ten million refugees had poured into eastern India.

The world knew what was happening. Time magazines August 2, 1971, issue quoted a United States official saying, This is the most incredible, calculated thing since the days of the Nazis in Poland. The article goes on to describe the streams of refugees:

Over the rivers and down the highways and along countless jungle paths, the population of East Pakistan continues to hemorrhage into India: an endless unorganized flow of refugees with a few tin kettles, cardboard boxes, and ragged clothes piled on their heads, carrying their sick children and their old. They pad along barefooted, with the mud sucking at their heels in the wet parts. They are silent, except for a child whimpering now and then, but their faces tell the story. Many are sick and covered with sores. Others have cholera, and when they die by the roadside there is no one to bury them.

The international communitys response to the massacres was shameful. We now have copies of desperate cables sent by diplomat Archer Blood and his colleagues at the US consulate in Dacca (now Dhaka) pleading with the US government to stop supporting a military regime that was carrying out genocide. Instead, President Richard Nixon concentrated on intimidating Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi into staying out. He would even send the US Seventh Fleet to cow her. Fortunately, Gandhi held her nerve and began to prepare for war.

Strengthened by promises of support from the US and China, Pakistans military commanders ordered pre-emptive air strikes against India on December 3, 1971. The Indian response was swift and sharp. With support from the civilian population, as well as from the Mukti Bahini, an irregular army of Bengali rebels, the Indian army swept into East Pakistan. Nixon was too bogged down in Vietnam to do more than issue threats. On December 16, the Pakistanis signed the instrument of surrender in Dacca. Bangladesh was born.

Having acquiesced in the genocide, the international community has conveniently forgotten it, and no Pakistani official has ever been brought to justice. On the contrary, many of the perpetrators later held senior government positions. It is as if the Nuremberg trials never happened after WWII.

As the world watches Libyas Muammar el-Qaddafi slaughter his own people, we should remember the human cost of international indifference.

The Forgotten Genocide by Sanjeev Sanyal - Project Syndicate

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lonelyone

You would think that 40 years after '71 everything there is to be known is known, and that there is no more to uncover. The following picture must be very familiar to all Bangladeshis. It shows a Pakistani soldier checking in the lungi of a man to see whether he is Hindu or Muslim, and if he is Hindu, he will probably be taken away to be killed.







Its a very common image, and is burned into the minds of Bangladeshis as an example of typical Pakistani/Islamic brutality, intolerance and backwardness.

However, the fact is that the picture ISN'T of a Pakistani soldier at all, but an Indian soldier "checking for weapons". The picture is from a book by an Indian photographer called Kishor Parekh, called "Bangladesh- A Brutal Birth"




Kishor Parekh





Now here is the original, undedited photo.




Caption in the book -- "Indian Troops Grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies they peer into Lungi in search of weapons."

And, here is another photo of the same scene.




Caption - "...Indian troops grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies...The Jawans (soldiers) I was travelling with weren't too gentle: they had suffered casualties..."- Kishor Parekh, Bangladesh War 1971.



Sources: 1. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)
2. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)


----------



## Gautam

I didn't understand what you're trying to do here. do you mean that "checking people whether they have weapons or no," is wrong?


----------



## Spring Onion

Gautam said:


> I didn't understand what you're trying to do here. do you mean that "checking people whether they have weapons or no," is wrong?



ahh you did not understand the difference between Indian LIES about Pakistan and the real situation .

look at the pictures again. The Indians after fomenting terrorism in East Pakistan made up so many lies about Pakistan and its army and fed lies to the world through its saffroni Indian media but things started unfolding with passage of time and your Indian true face is getting clear.


These pictures are of Indian soldiers who are abusing Bangladeshis the then east Pakistanis of bengali origin.

there are many other such accounts where your Indians and your allied terrorists killed own Bengalis in east Pakistan and blamed it on Pakistan. They still have same modu operandi of killing and dumping dead bodies and living human in gutters and dragging them to death. the recent mutiny is case in sight

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Awesome

Abir said:


> Soon it'll be found out it was Indian troopers who carried out genocide on poor Bangladeshish!



In fact its been a long suspected belief that the number killed is not 3 million but 300,000 and by large the murders were committed by pro-Independence parties and of course India.

Proof keeps pouring in to prove the same... however history is written by the victors and most of it is made up.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Maira La

Gautam said:


> I didn't understand what you're trying to do here. do you mean that "checking people whether they have weapons or no," is wrong?



No that's not what he's trying to convey here. I remember I've seen this picture a couple of times in BD media. Till now, we were all led to believe that Pak soldiers would hunt down hindus using "lungi searches". The Pak army did commit genocide, but it's not right to go overboard by fabricating history with cropped pictures.

PS: All this wouldn't make sense to anyone who hasn't seen this picture before.


----------



## monitor

lonelyone said:


> You would think that 40 years after '71 everything there is to be known is known, and that there is no more to uncover. The following picture must be very familiar to all Bangladeshis. It shows a Pakistani soldier checking in the lungi of a man to see whether he is Hindu or Muslim, and if he is Hindu, he will probably be taken away to be killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a very common image, and is burned into the minds of Bangladeshis as an example of typical Pakistani/Islamic brutality, intolerance and backwardness.
> 
> However, the fact is that the picture ISN'T of a Pakistani soldier at all, but an Indian soldier "checking for weapons". The picture is from a book by an Indian photographer called Kishor Parekh, called "Bangladesh- A Brutal Birth"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kishor Parekh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now here is the original, undedited photo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caption in the book -- "Indian Troops Grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies they peer into Lungi in search of weapons."
> 
> And, here is another photo of the same scene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caption - "...Indian troops grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies...The Jawans (soldiers) I was travelling with weren't too gentle: they had suffered casualties..."- Kishor Parekh, Bangladesh War 1971.
> 
> 
> 
> Sources: 1. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)
> 2. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)



Oh brother you have break a long standing idea of mine that _*only*_ the Pakistani troops did this kind of thing.
But what is confusing how can any one hide any weapons inside a lungi ? so weird Idea by Indian troops .


----------



## guest11

Asim Aquil said:


> In fact its been a long suspected belief that the number killed is not 3 million but 300,000 and by large the murders were committed by pro-Independence parties and of course India.
> 
> Proof keeps pouring in to prove the same... however history is written by the victors and most of it is made up.



Asim, you along with most of the senior members are the saner heads on this forum, so I must say I am kind of disappointed. I don't intend to bash the PA as they did what they were ordered to do but their is overwhelming evidences of the atrocities in the then East Pakistan. Blood telegram is just one of them or are you implying that it was fabricated and so were the other major news agencies around the globe. 

It's one thing to show assertiveness, it's another to live in denial for the sake of saving the face.


----------



## Spring Onion

guest11 said:


> Asim, you along with most of the senior members are the saner heads on this forum, so I must say I am kind of disappointed. I don't intend to bash the PA as they did what they were ordered to do but their is overwhelming evidences of the atrocities in the then East Pakistan. Blood telegram is just one of them or are you implying that it was fabricated and so were the other major news agencies around the globe.
> 
> It's one thing to show assertiveness, it's another to live in denial for the sake of saving the face.



Asim has his own business and he also knows why he acts like that or not. You Indians are in love with anyone that bash Pakistan and praise India.


Now coming to the topic : The Indian Army, airforce did the same in Mezoram and India is the first country in the world that had used airpower against own people in Mezoram.

your army is hunting own people in NE so lets stop this one sided notion that Pakistan was wrong for fighting the militants who had training camps inside India and were rebelling against own country.

every country every army will do so against those who side with enemy and break own country. period

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## monitor

harshad said:


> yeah i completly agree,pakistani army didnt do nothing



They did but many thing are may be propaganda during war as a psychological warfare and after war for political benefit


----------



## Spring Onion

Asim Aquil said:


> In fact its been a long suspected belief that the number killed is not 3 million but 300,000 and by large the murders were committed by pro-Independence parties and of course India.
> 
> Proof keeps pouring in to prove the same... *however history is written by the victors and most of it is made up*.



Lies written by victors can only manipulate one-sided minds


----------



## LaBong

Jana said:


> ahh you did not understand the difference between Indian LIES about Pakistan and the real situation .
> 
> look at the pictures again. The Indians after fomenting terrorism in East Pakistan made up so many lies about Pakistan and its army and fed lies to the world through its saffroni Indian media but things started unfolding with passage of time and your Indian true face is getting clear.
> 
> 
> These pictures are of Indian soldiers who are abusing Bangladeshis the then east Pakistanis of bengali origin.
> 
> there are many other such accounts where your Indians and your allied terrorists killed own Bengalis in east Pakistan and blamed it on Pakistan. They still have same modu operandi of killing and dumping dead bodies and living human in gutters and dragging them to death. the recent mutiny is case in sight



Are you that obtuse not to understand that even if the above story is true, the Indian photographer didn't concoct the story but the Bangladeshi media who used the photo in a wrong way. 

Now right another paragraph and include your favourite keywords there.


----------



## Awesome

harshad said:


> rightly said and the losers always complain and try to prove that they never lost



You can be obnoxious about it 3 decades later however the discussion here is whether or not such a brutality ever took place. Maybe a handful of non-state sanctioned incidents took place as is the reality of war, that too where nation states are on the brink of getting dismembered.

This picture proves a lot on how deep the propaganda machine runs on the Bangladesh independence.

PA was no saint, but then again that was a different time and much of it is concocted against it anyway.


----------



## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> In fact its been a long suspected belief that the number killed is not 3 million but 300,000 and by large the murders were committed by pro-Independence parties and of course India.
> 
> Proof keeps pouring in to prove the same... however history is written by the victors and most of it is made up.


 

What bangladeshish did to each other is not of India's fault. The action of Indian Army in Bangladesh was well documented, they were particularly cautious for not to be subjected to propagandas(although that didn't help really, IA has been accused of stealing Bangladeshi hilsa and paddy! :/). In fact because of IA, PA troopers came back home safely from blood thirsty bangladeshish! 

This is no proof, the Indian photographer didn't concoct the story but Bangladeshi media. Number of people killed has no relevance either nor is there any correct way to know how many of them were killed.


----------



## Awesome

Abir said:


> What bangladeshish did to each other is not of India's fault. The action of Indian Army in Bangladesh was well documented.



As this picture proves, its not as "well documented" as the claims are. What Indian Army did has also been falsely attributed to Pakistanis as well.


----------



## kobiraaz

yes this was shocking . All my life i was told about this picture that How mean the Pakistani Army is. It is almost ten years i have known the photo through Bangladeshi media as a token of Pakistani meanness. Just somedays ago found out it was an indian soldier!! funny..


----------



## Mani2020

Faarhan said:


> yes this was shocking . All my life i was told about this picture that How mean the Pakistani Army is. It is almost ten years i have known the photo through Bangladeshi media as a token of Pakistani meanness. Just somedays ago found out it was an indian soldier!! funny..



You just know what the elites want you to know, as most of you guys are too young so haven't witnessed 71 by your own eyes so you will believe on whatever is told to you in form of books, internet or school . interesting thing is the elites of your country or the party in power belong to the group that were in the favor for a separate country from east Pakistan. so going anti-india and pro-Pakistan wouldnot have served their purpose as it will result most of you people questioning about the separation but going anti-pakistan and pro-india has served their purpose as it has illuded your mind with the stuff like Pakistan army or Pakistan nation was such cruel to bangladesh so the partition is justified . But good to know that some secrets are being revealed now


----------



## LaBong

Asim Aquil said:


> As this picture proves, its not as "well documented" as the claims are. What Indian Army did has also been falsely attributed to Pakistanis as well.



It is indeed well documented, but Bangladeshi media picked up wrong story. Indian photographer was true to his profession.


----------



## Awesome

Abir said:


> It is indeed well documented, but Bangladeshi media picked up wrong story. Indian photographer was true to his profession.



Yes I do appreciate that, and it may be that the blame befalls upon the Bangladeshis but a considerable blame removal is required nonetheless from the PA as it puts into doubt any and all atrocities attributed to the PA by means of pictures.

Unless specific orders can be traced to PA officers to commit these crimes, PA as an institution remains "not guilty".

We know that both sides were involved in massacres. One of my aunt and her husband were brutally murdered for being "Pro-Pakistan" and countless stories exist how so many pro-Pakistani people were victims of violent hate crimes. So pictures can be of anything, there was plenty of massacre blame to go around. It was conveniently mostly put on the Pakistani Army.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

A little fact for Indians which they tend to forget,the Bengali Nationalists killed Unarmed Non Bengalies in large number due to which PA went berserk and start killing them on equal basis. THE infamous OPERATION of 1971 done by PA started after Mukti bahini, was busy in killing the non bengalis in sububs of dhaka and in other cities, were busy in destroying the properties, houses, of the people who opposed them.

The situation in Dhaka in 1971 was same as of the situation of Karachi today


----------



## sur

monitor said:


> They did but many thing are may be propaganda during war as a psychological warfare and after war for political benefit


-
*Like one issue is exposed about which you were in dark,,, why could not the other incidences that you are MADE TO BELIEVE be lies too...!!!*

Photos above are modus-operandi of hindu terrorists *NOT* of PAK-ARMY,,, this was to set-up Pak Army... & create excuse for india to enter West Pak & turn it into a *Na-Pak* country...



banglarmanush said:


> Apart from knives and machetes its quite hard to imagine hiding firearms used during that time, for example lee enfield rifle.



May be those indians were ferreting for circumcised Muslims to kill them & then photograph them & media would later show them being killed by Pak Army...


----------



## Zabaniyah

Liquid said:


> It wasn't India's President that said this on 22 February 1971..



Mujib was incorrect. That 3 million is an extremely exaggerated figure. Sadly, it is still being used for propaganda purposes.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Zabanya said:


> Mujib was incorrect. That 3 million is an extremely exaggerated figure. Sadly, it is still being used for propaganda purposes.



The 3 million and this quote comes from the President of Pakistan Yahya Khan.. Yes, it most likely is exaggerated.


----------



## Zabaniyah

harpoon said:


> ^^ Its all lies and Indian propaganda. Actually the whole 1971 war was a media hoax created by India to deceive the world. Bangladesh came out of nowhere.





jackhammer2 said:


> Completely true this whole 1971 drama was nothing but a hypothetical war created by India to kill some muslims and insulting the mighty Pakistanis





> Bangladeshi authorities claim that 3 million people were killed, while the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, an official Pakistan Government investigation, put the figure as low as 26,000 civilian casualties. *The international media and reference books in English have also published figures which vary greatly from 200,000 to 3,000,000 for Bangladesh as a whole.*



1971 Bangladesh atrocities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point is that there is no clear conclusion as to just how many people died. It is still a controversial matter in Bangladesh.

Here is one article written by a Bangladeshi. 
Letter: Mujib's confusion on Bangladeshi deaths | World news | The Guardian

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Areesh

lonelyone said:


> You would think that 40 years after '71 everything there is to be known is known, and that there is no more to uncover. The following picture must be very familiar to all Bangladeshis. It shows a Pakistani soldier checking in the lungi of a man to see whether he is Hindu or Muslim, and if he is Hindu, he will probably be taken away to be killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a very common image, and is burned into the minds of Bangladeshis as an example of typical Pakistani/Islamic brutality, intolerance and backwardness.
> 
> However, the fact is that the picture ISN'T of a Pakistani soldier at all, but an Indian soldier "checking for weapons". The picture is from a book by an Indian photographer called Kishor Parekh, called "Bangladesh- A Brutal Birth"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kishor Parekh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now here is the original, undedited photo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caption in the book -- "Indian Troops Grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies they peer into Lungi in search of weapons."
> 
> And, here is another photo of the same scene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caption - "...Indian troops grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies...The Jawans (soldiers) I was travelling with weren't too gentle: they had suffered casualties..."- Kishor Parekh, Bangladesh War 1971.
> 
> 
> 
> Sources: 1. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)
> 2. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)


 
Hahahaha lovely.


----------



## DADU

lonelyone said:


> You would think that 40 years after '71 everything there is to be known is known, and that there is no more to uncover. The following picture must be very familiar to all Bangladeshis. It shows a Pakistani soldier checking in the lungi of a man to see whether he is Hindu or Muslim, and if he is Hindu, he will probably be taken away to be killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a very common image, and is burned into the minds of Bangladeshis as an example of typical Pakistani/Islamic brutality, intolerance and backwardness.
> 
> However, the fact is that the picture ISN'T of a Pakistani soldier at all, but an Indian soldier "checking for weapons". The picture is from a book by an Indian photographer called Kishor Parekh, called "Bangladesh- A Brutal Birth"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kishor Parekh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now here is the original, undedited photo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caption in the book -- "Indian Troops Grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies they peer into Lungi in search of weapons."
> 
> And, here is another photo of the same scene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caption - "...Indian troops grimly round up villagers suspected to be Pakistani spies...The Jawans (soldiers) I was travelling with weren't too gentle: they had suffered casualties..."- Kishor Parekh, Bangladesh War 1971.
> 
> 
> 
> Sources: 1. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)
> 2. WPPh --> ENTER (World Press Photo)



Clearly some of these pictures are very disturbing.

I dont know about Bangladesh but certainly in Pakistan there should be a greater Awareness of the history of Pakistan including the 1971 war. Pictures like these should be put in to the books/newspapers for all to see and think about the stories behind them

Unfortunately in the schools children are only taught through high school about Bangladesh and that also to a very limited standard e.g. there was a war, people were unhappy and India orchestrated it all from the start.

But at the college level understanding does begin to develop and reasons looked in to for why it happened. (Im talking about private education in Pak, state schools would differ)

I remember a pukhtoon guy once came on TV interview 15 years ago bragging on about killing Hindu Bangladeshis because he thought they were allied to enemy India and so his company and some paramilitaries showed them no mercy and gunned them all down(not sure if its true or not). 

Some would argue why should we? Care about this when we are in a lot of problems ourselves and it happened 40 years ago. However I would disagree because if you gonna print books then at least print them right with truth/prospective in it because lies will only make it more harder to justify the wrongs.

No Doubt Atrocities happened from *Both Sides* but as lonely one has pointed out a* Review of All the historical facts* surrounding the Actions/controversies *Should be Carried out *in order to re-examine the evidence more clearly and to heal the peoples misunderstanding of cases such as these.

Peace


----------



## Al-zakir

Bangladeshi used to hate Pakistanis right after the separation however scenario is almost reverse after 40 years. Truth can not not be hidden for eternity. We know who was and is our enemy. Right now Bangladesh biggest enemy is Awami league. Pakistanis are welcome to help us to eliminate the scums once for all. This will be your ultimate revenge for 71.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nForce

Al-zakir said:


> Bangladeshi used to hate Pakistanis right after the separation however scenario is almost reverse after 40 years. Truth can not not be hidden for eternity. We know who was and is our enemy. Right now Bangladesh biggest enemy is Awami league. Pakistanis are welcome to help us to eliminate the scums once for all. This will be your ultimate revenge for 71.



When did you take a vote to reach this consensus??


----------



## Al-zakir

DADU said:


> I remember a pukhtoon guy once came on TV interview 15 years ago bragging on about killing Hindu Bangladeshis because he thought they were allied to enemy India and so his company and some paramilitaries showed them no mercy and gunned them all down(not sure if it&#8217;s true or not).



Initially Pakistan army targeted Hindus and Tagore loving Islamic named Mushrik minded intellectual out of vengeance. It's true that educated Hindus and Hindu minded Islamic named inteluactual were the main culprits to infused anti-Pakistan and anti-Islamic Propaganda among young East Pakistanis. This is was the reason they were the one actually experience the wrath of army. They were the enemy then and now.


----------



## Last Hope




----------



## kobiraaz

what is zaid hamid's source????


----------



## Al-zakir

aakash_2410 said:


> West Pakistanis treated Bangladeshis like second-class citizens!



Another rubbish propaganda by Bharti and Awami. Most prime minister in united Pakistan originated from the then East Pakistan. 



> -All the developement took place in West whereas Bangladeshi and mohajirs paid all the taxes.



Bull crap. Karachi and Punjab were already developed by Mughal and prominent Muslims long before creation of Pakistan. Only Islamabad were being build during united Pakistan and that too was by Saudis help. East Pakistan actually experienced eminence development during Ayub Khan presidency. He later demolished most of it during 71 conflicts. Perhaps out of anger.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Al-zakir

Faarhan said:


> what is zaid hamid's source????



His own research is his source. What he said about 71 on those videos actually make hell of a sense and most of can not be wrong. Take a example of this thread. Most people in BD has been fed garbage lie by Bharti and it's shoe licker Awami for last 40 years to keep Bangladeshi in dark. They are actually successful in Some extant.


----------



## saleen_s7

There was no Indian brutality committed against bengalis, or any significant incidences that can be highlighted according to any credible sources. Even if the picture has been falsified, the genocide committed was very well documented and I personally have relatives who fought and died in the war. The Indian army was honoured by many bangladeshi citizens after the war which brings me to the question, Why would Bangladeshis honour Indian Army when two days ago they engaged to a manslaughter? Matter of fact, the indian army joined the war at the very end and I doubt they had time to carry out such atrocities.


----------



## Al-zakir

saleen_s7 said:


> There was no Indian brutality committed against bengalis, or any significant incidences that can be highlighted according to any credible sources. Even if the picture has been falsified, the genocide committed was very well documented and I personally have relatives who fought and died in the war. The Indian army was honoured by many bangladeshi citizens after the war which brings me to the question, Why would Bangladeshis honour Indian Army when two days ago they engaged to a manslaughter? Matter of fact, the indian army joined the war at the very end and I doubt they had time to carry out such atrocities.



Who were watching the trespassing at the border considering the fact that Pakistan army was busy with the mukti? How hard was to make Pak army uniform and kiled in the name of Pak army? 

So your Bharti Bhai's are innocent and angel? So how do you explain the killing that taking place in border now even though current Bd government is very friendly with India.


----------



## saleen_s7

Al-zakir said:


> Who were watching the trespassing at the border considering the fact that Pakistan army was busy with the mukti? How hard was to make Pak army uniform and kiled in the name of Pak army?
> 
> So your Bharti Bhai's are innocent and angel? So how do you explain the killing that taking place in border now even though current Bd government is very friendly with India.



I have never claimed the Indian soldiers to be innocent and angel. But you are rewriting history with great inaccuracies and misrepresenting facts. I think the mass distortion of history from both sides are the sole purpose of our current identity crisis. 
Indians don't have to be angels to come to our rescues. They had strategic interests, and dividing Pakistan was only beneficiary to them in the long run. The injustices among the bengalis were well known and well documented starting from intellectuals and hindu minorities which even you have mentioned in the your previous post. 
The killing in the border area is a different issue altogether and I do hold BSF accountable for the thousand killed in 10 years.


----------



## Last Hope

Al-zakir said:


> Who were watching the trespassing at the border considering the fact that Pakistan army was busy with the mukti? How hard was to make Pak army uniform and kiled in the name of Pak army?



Exactly. And that is happening in Pakistan too, even today, in the Taliban area. The attack on the GHQ was by men in Pak Army Uniform.


> So your Bharti Bhai's are innocent and angel? So how do you explain the killing that taking place in border now even though current Bd government is very friendly with India.


Leave it. Most of us are taking in what we were taught when we were young. The real story is known by those who were alive at that time. They said, that _'we were forced to vote for Mujib-ur-Rehman or else our children were killed by Bharti Army/Mukhti Bahni'_


saleen_s7 said:


> I have never claimed the Indian soldiers to be innocent and angel. But you are rewriting history with great inaccuracies and misrepresenting facts. I think the mass distortion of history from both sides are the sole purpose of our current identity crisis.


Wonrg.


> Indians don't have to be angels to come to our rescues. They had strategic interests, and dividing Pakistan was only beneficiary to them in the long run. The injustices among the bengalis were well known and well documented starting from intellectuals and hindu minorities which even you have mentioned in the your previous post.
> The killing in the border area is a different issue altogether and I do hold BSF accountable for the thousand killed in 10 years.


Irrelevant to the discussions.


----------



## Al-zakir

saleen_s7 said:


> But you are rewriting history with great inaccuracies and misrepresenting facts. I think the mass distortion of history from both sides are the sole purpose of our current identity crisis.



No I am not rewriting history rather came to conclusion that so called genocide is a myth. If three million were dead then there would have been another few millions without limbs walking around us yet there aren't any. Sadly, Bangladeshi still being feed this garbage every other days through Bharti backed awami medias. 

Yes it's true people died but blame can not be pass on to Pakistan army alone. Muktis weren't milk drinking babies. I came from Sylhet and there were army based around the villages. No one died or raped. Only thing they killed was live stock. Do you think Bangladesh army will suck their finger if Chakmas try to separate part of chittagong from Bangladesh. I hope not.


----------



## kobiraaz

Al-zakir said:


> No I am not rewriting history rather came to conclusion that so called genocide is a myth. If three millions were dead then there would have been another few millions without limps walking around us yet there aren't any. Sadly, Bangladeshi still being feed this garbage every other days through Bharti backed awami medias.
> 
> Yes it's true people died but blame can not be pass on to Pakistan army alone. I came from Sylhet and there were army based around the villages. No one died or raped. Only thing they killed was live stock. Do you think Bangladesh army will suck their finger if Chakmas try to separate part of chittagong. I hope not.



Well, there was genocide. Maybe not 3 million, but there was one. . You can't deny your history. . .+ indian army did not kill any civil. . If this genocide by IA were true, we would have seen various article on it written by Bangladeshis who is anti india. Even never seen mr. Munshi Talking about this Even never seen mr. Munshi Talking about this. . . .


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Faarhan said:


> Well, there was genocide. Maybe not 3 million, but there was one. . You can't deny your history. . .+ indian army did not kill any civil. . If this genocide by IA were true, we would have seen various article on it written by Bangladeshis who is anti india. Even never seen mr. Munshi Talking about this Even never seen mr. Munshi Talking about this. . . .



There is no evidence that the deaths in 1971 were anywhere close to a million or above - many historians and researchers are now accepting that the death toll, from both sides, was likely around 100,000 to 300,000.

Second, Wikipedia lists the UN Definition of genocide as follows:

_' While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."_

While the PA did indeed commit atrocities, and the crackdown was brutal, there is nothing to support the argument that the PA planned or tried to implement the systematic destruction, in whole or part, of the Bengali community in East Pakistan. Had that been the case we would have seen official death camps and a systematic massacre of every single Bengali in sight, starting from Dhaka.

Heck, even the alleged Yahya quote (of which there is only one single direct source) suggests that the argument of a brutal crackdown was meant to suppress the rebellion ( .. and they will eat out of your hand) and not as a means of destroying the Bengali population in whole or in part. Legally, even leaving alone the fact that the inflated death tolls in 1971 cannot be proved, the genocide argument would not hold up given the lack of evidence supporting the application of the UN definition in this case.

Also, with respect to arguments over the atrocities committed by the East Pakistan rebels and the arguments against the 'millions killed' death estimates, please see the following thread where this has been discussed. I will copy the first post over to that thread as well.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/26732-atrocities-1971-civil-war.html

Please read through the above thread and post any relevant arguments there - it will be reopened for a limited time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## toxic_pus

Thanks for clarifying the image. I am myself guilty of using it, what appears now, in a wrong manner.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There is no evidence that the deaths in 1971 were anywhere close to a million or above - many historians and researchers are now accepting that the death toll, from both sides, was likely around 100,000 to 300,000.
> 
> Second, Wikipedia lists the UN Definition of genocide as follows:
> 
> _' While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."_
> 
> While the PA did indeed commit atrocities, and the crackdown was brutal, there is nothing to support the argument that the PA planned or tried to implement the systematic destruction, in whole or part, of the Bengali community in East Pakistan. Had that been the case we would have seen official death camps and a systematic massacre of every single Bengali in sight, starting from Dhaka.
> 
> Heck, even the alleged Yahya quote (of which there is only one single direct source) suggests that the argument of a brutal crackdown was meant to suppress the rebellion ( .. and they will eat out of your hand) and not as a means of destroying the Bengali population in whole or in part. Legally, even leaving alone the fact that the inflated death tolls in 1971 cannot be proved, the genocide argument would not hold up given the lack of evidence supporting the application of the UN definition in this case.



You are correct that technically, and only technically, the en mass slaughter of Bengalis don't fall under the specific definition of Genocide [Article II, Genocide Convention, 1948] and so long as the current paradigm is followed, it won't. The International Commission of Jurists also ruled accordingly:


_'To prevent a nation from attaining political autonomy does not constitute genocide: the intention must be to destroy in whole or in part the people as such. The Bengali people number some 75 million. It can hardly be suggested that the intention was to destroy the Bengali people. As to the destruction of part of the Bengali people, there can be no doubt that very many Bengalis were killed. We find it quite impossible to assess the total numbers, and we cannot place great confidence in the various estimates which have been made from time to time. However, it appears to be indubitable that the killed are to be numbered in tens of thousands and probably in hundreds of thousands. But this in itself is not sufficient to establish that the intent was to kill them simply because they belonged to the Bengali people as such.

After the initial *holocaust* of the army crack-down in Dacca, the Pakistani authorities appear to have been pursuing in particular members of three identifiable groups, namely members of the Awami League, students and Hindus. Anyone who was identified as belonging to one of these groups was liable to be shot at sight, or to be arrested and in many cases severely ill-treated, or to have his home destroyed. The fact that these groups were singled out for special attention itself militates against the finding that the intent was to destroy in whole or in part the Bengali people as such.

This does not mean, of course, that particular acts may not have constituted genocide against part of the Bengali people. *In any case where large numbers were massacred and it can be shown that on the particular occasion the intent was to kill Bengalis indiscriminately as such, then a crime of genocide would be established. There would seem to be a prima facie case to show that this was the intention on some occasions, as for example during the indiscriminate killing of civilians in the poorer quarters of Dacca during the 'crack-down'.*'_​

But there is more to it. ICJ continues:


_As far as the other three groups are concerned, namely members of the Awami League, students and Hindus, only *Hindus would seem to fall within the definition of' a national, ethnical, racial or religious group'. There is overwhelming evidence that Hindus were slaughtered and their houses and villages destroyed simply because they were Hindus. The oft repeated phrase 'Hindus are enemies of the state' as a justification for the killing does not gainsay the intent to commit genocide; rather does it confirm the intention. The Nazis regarded the Jews as enemies of the state and killed them as such. In our view there is a strong prima facie case that the crime of genocide was committed against the group comprising the Hindu population of East Bengal*._​

And yes, PA did run death camps, description of one of which I had posted right in this thread (I can post scanned images of the NYT article) and there were indeed systematic killings of Hindus.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## monitor

*Behind the Myth of 3 million - Chapter- I: The Making of The Myth*

Written by Dr. M. Abdul Mu&#8217;min Chowdhury 

many myths have been formed around the creation of Bangladesh. Among them is the fiction that the defeated Pakistan Army savagely killed three million people and raped three hundred thousand women during their less than nine months unsuccessful fight to preserve the integrity of a united Pakistan. 

Recalling this 'heinous' Pakistani crime with suave moral indignation was made into a national ritual. Not only the beaten Pakistan Army but also the subverted Pakistan came to be portrayed as inherently evil and her dismemberment a triumph of civilized values over barbarism. No less a figure than the 'Father of the Nation' was made to consecrate the lore. With his stamp of authority behind it, his grateful children were implicitly compelled into faithfully repeating it. Not to accept it as 'the whole truth, nothing but the truth' with unquestioning faith was to fall short of being a 'Bengali patriot'. In those hallucinatory days of 'liberated' Bangladesh, the premium for such a terrible shortcoming was not merely dear, but potentially fatal. The 'permanent disappearance' of Zahir Raihan, the celebrated writer and film director, who showed the audacity of forming and heading 'The Buddhijibi Nidhan Tayithanusandhan Committee' (The Fact Finding Committee on the Killing of Intellectuals), in January 1972 [1] was a calculated warning to all doubting Bangladeshis. Understandably, the skeptics kept quiet and the scoundrels and the credulous joined the chorus masters in singing the saga of three million &#8216;martyrs&#8217; and three hundred thousand 'heroines'. 
Once the &#8216;Father of the Nation&#8217; had fallen into disrepute and even came to be accused of treachery to the Bangladeshi nation&#8217;, some of the deified artefacts adorning the liberationist altar came to be seen as mendacious. But not this nor any other Pakistani crime; at least not officially. The successive masters of Bangladesh have shown no interest in exonerating Pakistan from any charges, however undeserved they might have been. Instead, by keeping them alive they skilfully played politics by veering on the sides of the accused and the accuser all at once. Alongside the dubious opportunism of the occupants of power, the dwindling band of the conscious keepers of the 'Bengali spirit of liberation' have continued their efforts to keep the myth alive through a more vociferous recital. 

Yet, over the years, questioning voices were heard. These were not from the much maligned 'pro-Pakistanis' alone, but also from among the unimpeachable 'liberationists' and their 'Indian comrades', including the highest Indian most generals who gave Bangladesh its 'Cesarean birth'. Some of the latter have, of course, their own fiction to sell. 

Curiously, those in Pakistan have remained indolent. There was no attempt to refute any of the vile accusations, including this very loathsome charge. Instead, there appeared to be a misplaced hope that apologetic smile to any and every charge would help in taking the heat out and once sobriety was restored and goodwill regenerated, the time would arrive for the truth to come out. Despite its many attractions, such a stand back posture has helped in perpetuating the falsehood and possibly retarding the restoration of the brotherly relationship between the peoples of Pakistan and Bangladesh. [2] For the intention of the mythmakers was to harbour hatred.

In order to create a healthy relationship between the two peoples it is essential to admit, and where possible to take measures to amend, all past mistakes committed by either people and their leaders. However, it is imperative that such steps should be taken on both sides with fidelity to truth and not on opportunism or contrived facts and unfounded myths. 
. 
Like many other myths of its kind, the fiction of three million dead and three hundred thousand women raped was not politically innocent; and it is time to recognise this both in Pakistan and in Bangladesh. Not to do so would be a disservice to truth and damaging to the interest of the people of both countries, especially the people of Bangladesh. This would be so, for any further credence to such a poisonous myth would perpetuate the psychic isolation and the splintered Muslim self-view of the people of Bangladesh in their geopolitically island-like setting. This would not serve their enlightened national self-interest, nor their independence. Instead, this would help those in and outside their country who wish to do away with their very existence as a Muslim nation. 

BEHIND THE MYTH OF THREE MILLION is a re-examination of a sad chapter in the relationship of the people of Pakistan and Bangladesh and exposes its utterly contrived nature as well as the motive behind such inventiveness. I am one of those whose family were reported among the casualties of Pakistan Army's action in Dhaka on the night of 26 March 1971. Some of my personal friends within the 'liberationist' camp even had a condolence meeting for me in their Indian safe heaven! I am not alone in having been counted as dead. Countless other people could tell a similar story of their own. Some have even found their names engraved in the commemorative plaques solemnly dedicated in memory of the fallen heroes of the Bangladesh War. [3] Being one of many such' 'reincarnated' beings, I feel duty bound to help remove the myth which is of no service either to my fellow countrymen or to history. Yet, mindful of the requirement of objectivity I have chosen to confine myself to published works and recorded sources and have analysed them with the utmost fidelity to the truth. The ultimate judgement lies with the reader and it is my hope that they would find the pages that follow both interesting and informative. 

In putting facts over fiction, I risk ruffling the feathers of those who for all manner of reasons have allowed themselves to be beguiled. Even if a few of them start considering the facts and begin rethinking their position, I shall consider my efforts worth-while. For those who in their blinkered disposition refuse to distinguish facts from fiction and continue to follow the pied pipers of the 'spirit of liberation' fame, who have - to my mind and I hope many would agree with me - no better function other than leading the Muslim Nation of Bangladesh towards its national suicide, I can only pray for divine guidance. 

A friend has helped me with source materials and other friends have joined him in encouraging me for a quick completion of the work. All of them have done so, I am sure, out of friendship and not for credit. The friend who helped me with source materials particularly wanted to remain anonymous. In deference to his wish, I refrain from naming him and other friends. However, saliently and sincerely I acknowledge their debt and pray for their continued well-being.

February, 1996 (Dr. M. Abdul Mu&#8217;min Chowdhury)

NOTES AND REFERENCES
1. Zahir Raihan was a Marxist who was said to have been disillusioned while in Calcutta and did not believe that the 'intellectuals' found murdered in Dhaka on the eve of 16 December 1971- who included his elder brother Shahidullah Kaiser- could have been killed at the behest of the Pakistan Army as has been alleged. The rumour has it that he also had incriminatory photographs of questionable activities of the Awami League leaders in India. While gathering information about the killing he was kidnapped in Dhaka in broad day light and was never seen again. There is no doubt that he was killed by either those who were at risk of being exposed or those who did not like the truth behind the killing of the intellectuals to come out. 
2. For a cogent argument on this point cf. Syed Sajjad Husain, The Wastes of Time: Reflections on the Decline and Fall of East Pakistan, Notun Safar Prokashani, 44 Purana Paltan, Dhaka -1000, 1995: 265-84 
3. Jauhuri, Tirish Lakher Telesmat (The Riddle of Thirty Lakh), Asha Prokashan, 435 Elephant Road, Dhaka -1217,1994: 74

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## monitor

May 1973, Abdul Gaffar Choudhury, a well known newspaper columnist and close associate of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, said: &#8216;We are now saying three million Bengali&#8217;s have been martyred. Without any survey we are telling three million Bengali&#8217;s have died.&#8217; [1] After openly raising doubts about the alleged figure, Choudhury left Bangladesh for good for Britain. 

It took another twenty years for the question to be raised again. Participating in a debate in the National Assembly of Bangladesh on 15 June 1993, Col. Akbar Hussain, a decorated &#8216;Mukti Juddha&#8217; and a Cabinet Minister under both General Ziaur Rahman and Mrs Khaleda Zia, returned to the question. Making a pointed attack on the Awami League for its 'propensity to falsify history', he said that the Awami League had created the myth of 'three million killed', whereas in reality it was closer to a tenth of that figure. On the following day Shudhangshu Shekar Haldar, a Hindu member of Awami League, challenged Col. Hussain to substantiate his assertion with &#8216;recorded proof&#8217;. Responding to the challenge, the Minister told the National Assembly that after the creation of Bangladesh an announcement was made to pay Tk. 2,000 to every family that suffered loss of life where upon only three hundred thousand families had claimed such compensation. Had there been three million individuals dead, their families would have claimed for compensation. Poignantly, Haldar could not, and did not, challenge the figure of those actually claimed compensation. Nor could he give any satisfactory explanation for the missing two million seven hundred thousand. Instead, he began inquiring as to what could have prompted the Minister to question' a well-known fact'.

The tactic was "a clear one: if you cannot 'kill' the message, 'kill' the messenger. Having done that however, he requested the presiding Deputy Speaker to expunge Col. Hussain's remarks from the proceedings of the Assembly. At this point Abdus Samad Azad, standing in for the Awami League leader, stood up and spoke in support of his party colleague's demand for the effacement of the remarks. His argument was: 'So far no one, including General Ziaur Rahman, has challenged the figure of three million. We had it from our leader Sheikh Mujib and it must stand as correct'. [2] 

1.2. Mujib&#8217;s Part in the Myth Making:
Indeed, it was Mujib's stamp of approval which gave the oft quoted number both its life and respectability. On 10 January 1972, the very day of his return to Bangladesh from prison in West Pakistan, he publicly announced: 

..... "Three million people have been killed. I believe that there is no parallel in the history of the world of such a colossal loss of lives for the struggle for freedom." [3] 

He repeated the same charge before the world in a television interview given to the British broadcaster David Frost. In the same interview, which was recorded at his private residence in Dhaka and was broadcasted from New York on 18 January 1972, he also made the astounding claim that the very house in which the interview was taking place had been destroyed by the Pakistani Army! [4] A day earlier the Time Magazine quoted Mujib saying, 

&#8216;if Hitler could have been alive today he would be ashamed&#8217; [5]

During the following weeks and months, his insistence on the three million figure grew and it became his all-purpose 'opening song'. Let me give an example. 

"The vice-secretary asked me to sit in the corridor crowded with at least 50 persons. He then walked into the office and informed Mujib of my presence. I heard a terrible growl and the poor man reappeared shaken, asking me to wait. I waited. One hour, two hours, three hours, four hours, then at eight o'clock I was still there in that damned corridor. At 8-30 a miracle occurred: Mujib was ready to receive me. I was asked to enter. I entered into a large room with a sofa and two armchairs. Mujib was sprawled all over the sofa and two fat ministers were seated in the armchairs with their bellies in the air. No one rose. No one made a greeting and no one responded to mine. There was a very long silence until Mujib gestured to me to sit down. I sat on a small corner of the sofa and opened up the tape recorder preparing the first question. But, I didn't have time for that. Mujib started to shout: 'Hurry up, quick, understand?' 'I have no time to waste, is that clear?' 'The Pakistanis have killed three million people, is that clear? Yes, three, three, three.' (How he arrived at that figure, I'll never understand. The Indians speaking of the victims have never gone over the one million figure). I said: 'Mr Prime Minister...' Mujib started to shout again: &#8216;They killed my women in front of their husbands and children, the husbands in front of their sons and wives, the sons in front of their fathers and mothers, the nephews before their grandfathers and grandmothers, the grandfathers and grandmothers in front of their nephews, cousins in front of cousins, aunts in front of uncles, brother-in-law in front of sister-in-law .. . &#8216;Mr Prime Minister, I would like .. .&#8217; &#8216;Listen to her, she would like! She would like. You have no right to want anything, understand? Is that clear?" 

This is the account of the well-known Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci's interview with Mujib. [6] 

Yet, only on 8 January 1972 in London, on his way back to Bangladesh, the same Mujib had claimed that 'one million people had been killed in Bangladesh.' [7] One might wonder who updated the figure for Mujib? Was it done between his journey from London to Dhaka, via New Delhi or immediately after his arrival in Dhaka? It has been claimed by one of the 'involved' Indian organisers of the 'Freedom Movement' that 'By and by he [Mujib] came to know more details and later in Dacca he put the figure at 3.5 million' .[8] Since Mujib focussed on three million, rather than on his long time benefactor's averred three and a half million, one might think he was still hesitant to paddle out everything his 'involved' benefactors were handing him out. But, where did he get this figure form? 

1.3. The Myth Makers at Work:
However inventive Mujib was with facts and however insistent he became with the fiction of 'three million killed' and 'three hundred thousand raped', as we shall see he himself did not fabricate it. He simply parroted in public, what was given to him in private. In fact, the figure which he was eventually handed out, went through several updates at the hands of a number of involved quarters. 

1.4. The Swadhin Bangla Betar:
Up to 10 December 1971, Mujib&#8217;s own Awami League colleagues, few of whom ever ventured out to face the Pakistan Army and most of whom had reportedly spent their Indian sojourn in enjoyment with their friends and families [9] had been circulating an estimated casualty figure of three hundred thousand, through the 'Swadhin Bangla Betar'. [10] Even years later his party Vice President, Zahirul Qayyum, would implicitly contest the myth of three million by pointing to this estimate broadcasted by the official organ of the Bangladesh Government in exile.[II]

1.5. Indian Authorities:
Yet, on 7 January 1972 the Press Trust of India, quoting Sheikh Abdul Aziz, the newly appointed Communication Minister of Bangladesh [12], reported from Calcutta a casualty figure of over one million. However, the news communicated by the Indian national news agency stressed that the casualty toll was a provisional one and disclosed that the Government of Bangladesh was going to collect statistics in order to obtain the actual figure. Apparently, to give some credibility to the Minister's newly updated estimate, he was quoted as saying that in his own village the Pakistan Army had killed 107 persons. [13] There was no explanation as to how the estimated death toll rose by three-fold in a matter of three weeks, during most of which the &#8216;culprit&#8217; Pakistan Army had been under Indian custody. 

To be fair to the Minister, this figure of one million killed was floating around from the beginning of the insurgency. One Asad Choudhury wrote a poem, called 'Report 1971' at the start of the insurgency. In it he told his readers that the Pakistani Army had, by then, massacred one million Bengalis and have raped forty thousand women. [14] Likewise, on 24 June 1972 the &#8216;Swadhin Bangla Betar&#8217; broadcasted a speech, supposedly written by Maulana Bhashani, which, inter alia, claimed that 'after sacrificing one million invaluable lives, the struggling masses of independent Bengal would not accept any thing else. Their only road is either full independence or death.' [15] But, one might still want to know, why the Minister suddenly found this preferable over the 'Swadhin Bangla Betar's' hitherto &#8216;official&#8217; figure of three hundred thousand? 

In this connection, it is to be noted that the Indian authorities, including India's military establishment, have consistently maintained that so far as they were concerned the casualty figure stood at one million. What is more interesting, M.R.Akhtar Mukul, who as the head of the' Swadhin Bangla Betar' and the presenter of its best known programme 'Charampatra' (Dire Letter) had been regularly disseminating out the three hundred thousand figure up to 10 December 1971, in his book of recollection &#8216;Ami Bijoy Dekhechi&#8217; (I Have Seen Victory) he piously authenticated the one million casualty toll without ever mentioning his old vaunted death toll. [16] Those who are familiar with Mukul' s professed willingness to lie for facilitating Indian cover-ups [17] would not be surprised at his volte face. Nor would they doubt that like Mukul, Sheikh Abdul Aziz was also made to endorse the figure deemed appropriate for the occasion by the Indian authorities. 

In his reminiscence Field Marshall Sam Manekshaw simply presented the figure as a &#8216;well-known fact&#8217; and expressed utter incredulity at the figure of three million with which Mujib's name became inextricably linked. [18] Likewise, in a mass produced video interview Lt Gen. Jagjit Singh Aurora said that 'all of us knew' that the Pakistan Army had brutally killed 'about a million people'; yet Sheikh Mujib who 'was more an agitator and less an administrator' decided to 'make it more brutish' by saying that the Pakistan Army had killed three million Bengalis. He pointed out that Mujib's figure was 'absolutely impossible', because the Pakistan Army had 'simultaneously fought within the country and at the borders'. [19] Earlier, Maj.Gen.D.K.Palit, who also had a hand in 'the birth of Bangladesh engineered by the Indian Army', gave the same one million figure as if it was an indubitable fact which required no supporting proof. [20] Despite Palit's stance, one should heed the significance of the fact that neither Manekshaw nor Aurora have vouched for the authenticity of the Indian figure beyond that it was a 'well-known fact' or some how 'known to us'. 

The 'absolutely impossible' figure of three million to which Mujib publicly tied up his own name was not absolutely his own invention. The 'credit' for its fabrication was due to one Ehtesham Haider Choudhury, editor of the Dhaka daily Purbadesh and his Russian friend, the Pravda representative in Dhaka. 

1.6. The Purbadesh/Pravda/ENA:
In a signed editorial under the heading of 'Hang the Yahya Junta' on the 22 December 1971 issue of the Purbadesh, Choudhury claimed that the 'enemy occupation forces have savagely killed about three million innocent people and more than two hundred intellectuals'. [21] Curiously enough, only on the previous day the same daily printed an eight column red coloured banner heading, asking: 'How many people of Bengal have been killed?' In it Ershad Majumdar, the paper's senior reporter, categorically said that 'every where people are asking: How many people of Bangladesh have been killed? How many 'lakhs' (unit of hundred thousand)? 10,20,30,40 or 50 lakhs? No one seems to have the answer. But the people are not likely to leave the question unanswered. Answer we must have.' [22] 

Within days the Pravda printed a news claiming that over three million people have been killed by the Pakistan Army. The Soviet daily carried the news without mentioning the Purbadesh editorial. The report was credited to its Special Correspondent. ENA, the Bangladesh news agency, lifted the Pravda news and reproduced it in all major Dhaka dailies under the beading: 'Pak Army Killed Over 30 Lakh People'. Now it read 

"The Communist Party Newspaper Pravda has reported that over 30 lakh persons were killed throughout Bangladesh by the Pakistani occupation forces during the last nine months, reports ENA. 

Quoting its Special Correspondent stationed in Dacca, the paper said that the Pakistani military forces immediately before their surrender to Mukti Bahinis and the Allied Forces had killed about 800 intellectuals in the capital city of Bangladesh alone.[23] 

The change from 'less than three million' of the Purbadesh editor into 'over three million' is to be marked. The effortless four-fold increase in the number of intellectuals allegedly killed is also to be noticed. We may also keep in mind Jyoti Sen Gupta's false claim regarding Mujib's announcement that 3.5 million people have been killed. 

1.7. How Mujib Took to Parroting the Last Figure:
It was reported that on his arrival in Dhaka on 10 January 1972 the lobby behind the fabrication of the &#8216;absolutely impossible&#8217; figure promptly briefed the returning Bangladesh leader with the added 'fact' of three hundred thousand women raped, who in turn immediately went on parroting it. [24] Thus, the self-serving fiction of &#8216;three million killed&#8217; and &#8216;three hundred thousand women raped&#8217; was created. 


Notes and References
1. Abdul Gaffar Choudhury, Shahosh Kare Kichu Shaythay Katha Bala Proyjan, (With Courage a Few Truth Have to be Said), The Dainik Janapad, Dhaka, 20 May 1973
2. Cf. The Proceedings of the National Assembly of Bangladesh, 15 and 16 June, 1993.
3. Ramendu Majumdar, Bangladesh My Bangladesh': Selected Speeches and Statements, Muktadhara. 74 Farashganj, Dhaka - 1, 1972: 140 
4. Cf. M.R.Akhtar Mukul, Ami Vijoy Dekhechi (I Have Seen Victory), Sagar Publications, GPO Box 3057, Dhaka, Bangladesh, 1391 BS (1984): 245. 
5. Time Magazine, NewYork, 17 January 1972.
6. Oriana Fallaci, An Interview with Mujibur Rahman, L' Europeo, Rome, 24 February, 1972. [cf.' Text in Appendix - I] 
7. Jyoti Sen Gupta, History of Freedom Movement in Bangladesh, 1947-73: Some Involvement, Naya Prokash, 206 Bidhan Sarani, Calcutta - 6, 1974: 445 
8. Jyoti Sen Gupta, ibid .: 445
9. Abdul Gaffar Choudhury, op cit. 
10. Yahya Mirza, Interview with Mr.Abdul Muhaimin, The Tarokalok, 1 March, 1990; and Jauhuri, Tirish Lakher Telesmat (The Riddle of Thirty Lakh), Asha Prokashani, 435 Elephant Road, Dhaka - 1217, 1994: 48. 
11. Jauhuri, ibid: 48-49
12. Four new ministers were added to the five-men Government which in existence in Calcutta since April, 1971. The new appointments were made on 29 December 1971 
13. Jauhuri, op cit: 63-64
14. M.R.Akhtar Mukul, op cit: 95
15. ibid: 95
16. ibid: 376
17. Manzurul Karim , Betorkito Mujib (The Controversial Mujib)
18. ibid::
19. Lt.Gen Jagjit Singh Aurora, Reminiscences of Bangladesh War (video interview), Mass Communication Research Centre, Jamia Millia Islamia, Delhi, 1994. 
20. Maj.Gen. Palit, The Lightning Campaign: The Indo-Pakistan War 1971, Compton Press, Salisbury, 1972: 24 
21. The Purbadesh, Dhaka, 22 December 1971. 
22. The Purbadesh, Dhaka, 21 December 1971 
23. The Bangladesh Observer, Dhaka, 5 January, 1972.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## monitor

*An Affront to Common Sense?*
It has already been noted that Lt Gen. Aurora has dismissed the very claim of three million killed as 'absolutely impossible'. No firmer rejection of it could have been conceived. 

2.2 Fabrication Can&#8217;t Stand for Fact
Moreover, the way it had been fabricated by the Purbadesh/Pravda/ENA combined could hardly be said to be worthy of any confidence in terms of reliability and validity. Given the dislocated communication systems and the completely anarchic situation of the time, with the Bangladesh Government still waiting in Calcutta for the Indian permission to return to Dhaka [1], the editor gentleman was apparently in no position to make even a few random estimates with his correspondents outside Dhaka for producing a crude guess-work. This gentleman seemed to have simply taken the mean average of the five hypothetical figures mentioned in a plainly searching mood by his paper's correspondent only twenty four hours before. 

2.3 Could the Indian Figure Be Any Better?
Some of the above reasons, for which no confidence could be accorded to the Purbadesh/Pravda/ENA combination's guesswork, apply equally to the figure adopted by the Indian authorities and to which Field Marshall Manekshaw, Lt. Gen. Aurora and Maj.Gen. Palit wanted us to repose our trust. One may ask, if the figure of three million was 'absolutely impossible', could the figure of one million be deemed within the realm of probability? 

2.4 From Comparative Perspective
In answering the above we may apply a number of tests. Firstly, a comparison with countries which have all seen 'much bitter and prolonged armed conflict'. 


Comparative Casualty Figures

War Duration* Casualty Annual average
Vietnam 12 1,000,000	83,333 
Algeria 7.5 100,000 13333 
Cambodia 23	1,100,000** 47,826
Afghanistan	14	2,000,000	142,857
Angola	16	300,000	18,750
Iran/Iraq	9	1,000,000	111,111
Bosnia	3 (up to March '94)	142,592	47,531
Sri Lanka	13	50,000	3,846
Bangladesh	0.75 


Purbadesh/Pravda/ENA	
3,000,000	4,000,000
Indian	
1,000,000	1,333,333


* in year **exclude the citizen who were killed at the hands of the Pol Pot regime. 

In Vietnam the US waged a war of attrition of unprecedented scale for 12 years. There was barely any lethal weapon, excepting the atomic bomb, which the mighty Superpower did not use against the North Vietnamese Forces and their South Vietnamese proxies, the Viet Cong guerrillas. Thousands and thousands of tons of bombs were used for carpet bombing insurgent infested villages and valleys. Yet the total Vietnamese casualty figures during the 12 years of contest did not exceed one million or an average yearly toll of little over 83,000. 

From 1954 to 1962 the Algerians waged an all-out guerrilla war against French rule provoking serious attacks against them not only from the French Government but also from the Algerian-born Frenchmen. In this seven and a half year long struggle for independence, 100,000 Algerians lost their life at a yearly rate of little over 13,000. 

Cambodia has continuously suffered either direct foreign invasion or internal civil war at the behest of foreign powers or both, non-stop for over two decades. The VS alone has dropped 539,129 ton bombs on Cambodia. Yet, over a period of 23 years the Cambodian casualty figure stood at 2,100,000, averaging less than 48,000 a year. 

The Afghan Mujahideen confronted Soviet occupation for 14 years. In the plains they fought against the Communist Superpower's tanks and armoured cars and on the hills and valleys they suffered savage aerial bombardment. Their total cost in life was 2,000,000 with an annual average of less than 143,000. 

The 16 year long Angolan civil war in which the Government forces aided by the Cuban military personnels fought for the control of the country against the Unita rebels who had the backing of the USA and South Africa. The total loss in Angolan lives was 300,000 with an annual average of less than 19,000. 

Between them Iran and Iraq have fought a particularly savage all out frontal war for nine years. In the war both sides even used forbidden chemical weapons and completely destroyed each others towns and cities. Even in that vicious war the average yearly loss of life was about 111,000. 

Amidst untold Serb savagery and ethnic cleansing, implicitly facilitated by the Russians and the West European powers, the Muslims of Bosnia have been fighting a grim war to preserve their existence and the integrity of their country. During the first three years up to March 1994 the total casualty figure stood at 142,592 with an annual rate of 47,531. 

In Sri Lanka, the Tamil separatists have been fighting a bitter war for the last 13 years. As on January 1996 the total casualty figure of that Indian engineered civil war in Sri Lanka has cost about 50,000 lives at an annual average of 3,846. 

Compared to any of the above, as summarized in the preceding Table, either of the casualty figures for Bangladesh, i.e. the Purbadesh/Pravda/ENA three million, and Indian one million, look simply incredible. Lt. Gen. Aurora's description of 'absolutely impossible' could be appropriate not only to the Purbadesh/Pravda/ENA fabricated figure but to his preferred Indian figure as well. Both are inflated out of proportion to suit their much loved propaganda. 

2.5 Some Indications of Combatant Casualty:
In this connection one might note that by trawling numerous participant accounts of the Mukti Bahini's 'heroic exploits and sacrifices' that have appeared in print, one would not be able to gather together a grand casualty figure of more than a few thousand. This was not surprising. First, the Mujib Bahini, a major component of the 130,000 or so Mukti Bahini [2}, was specially trained and kept in reserve away from insurgency duty in case the ordinary Mukti Bahini become defiant of India and needed to be brought in line. Secondly, the ordinary Mukti Bahini's primary function was not so much to fight the Pakistan Army but to gather intelligence and to serve as scouts to the Indian Army. Last but not least, much of the publicized encounters between Pakistan Army and the Mukti Bahini were in fact clashes between Pakistan Army and Indian Forces in the guise of Mukti Bahini. As disclosed by Moralji Desai, who later briefly succeeded Indira Gandhi as Prime Minister of his country, about 5,000 regular Indian soldiers were killed while fighting in the disguise of Mukti Bahini. [3] This was further confirmed by the Indian Army's later demand for the formal recognition of these fallen soldiers. [4] Apart from the regular Indian Army, members of her Border Security Forces were also known to have fought under the guise of the Mukti Bahini. 

2.6 The Extent of Civilian Casualty:
Apparently, the authors of the different casualty figures were aware of the miniscule size of the casualty among the Bangladeshi fighting men, including the Mukti Bahini. Their allegation of indiscriminate killing of civilians was partly intended to cover this up. But how plausible were these claims?

2.7 From Another Comparative Perspective:
To have a measure of their probability, let us compare the two vaunted figures with that of Nazi Germany's. The attempt at the extermination of the Jews during the Second World War, the most extensive and methodical effort of its kind ever, is a legend. It would be recalled that over a six year period the Nazi Germany rounded up the Jews, not only from Germany but also from all other conquered countries of Central and Western Europe, herded them in Concentration Camps and systematically gas them to death on a mass scale. Altogether six million Jews were killed at an annual rate of 1.5 million. As against this, the rate implied in the two vaunted figures for Bangladesh would be as follows: 
Purbadeshl/Pravda/ENA - 4 million; and Indian - 1.3 million. Although the last figure is slightly less than that of Nazi Germany's, once the German territorial and population sphere, scale of operation, use of concentration camps and gas chambers were taken into account, the fantastic nature of both the figures for Bangladesh emerge with force. 

In order to kill three million the Pakistan Army would have had to kill 11,494 persons a day non-stop from 26 March onwards. If on the other hand, they were to kill one million people, their daily killing would come to 3,831. Seen in another way, for the 60,000 Pakistan Army to kill three million and rape three hundred thousand women, each and everyone of them had to kill 50 persons and rape 5 women. In this context let me quote an apparent believer of the myth of three million: 

"Considering that 60,000 armed officers and men had managed this abominable feat in course of few months, it would appear that each individual had on an average, committed about 50 murders, inflicted injuries on about 3 persons, raped about 7 girls/women, burnt numerous houses and looted a sizeable amount of money!" [5] 

Plainly, despite his apparent agreement with the myth, the inner incredulity of the author of the above lines could not remain unchecked. His own exclamation mark said it all.

Anyone who has any semblance of rationality would recognise that to produce any of the above killing rates, each and every member of the Pakistan Army would have to be more than a homicidal killing machine. Even the worst serial killers known in human history have not succeeded in killing people at such a high rate! On top of that make them responsible for producing a rape figure of three hundred thousand. One needs to be extra imaginative to even contemplate the scenario. Probably, in spinning the telltale figures the spin doctors' head went spinning! Apparently, in hailing 'the Chief' all 'the Indians' went berserk. 

2.8 From Ground Level Perspective:
According to the Government statistics, in 1971 East Pakistan had 69,774,000 people, 12,673,000 family households, 68,385 villages, and 4,472 unions. If either of the above imagined figures were placed alongside the above demographic facts the following ratio of casualty should in reality be found:

Demography and Implied Killing Rate

@3 million @ 1 million 
Per 1000 people 43.154 14.385
Per 100 families	23.675	7.892
Per village 45.03	15.01
Per union 670.84	223.61


Hardly anyone in Bangladesh could relate his or her local knowledge of casualties to any of the above. Although Sheikh Abdul Aziz, the Communication Minister of Bangladesh of the time, had been quoted by the PTI claiming that his own village had suffered a total loss of 107 persons, personal enquiry has shown the utter baselessness of the reported claim. Some of the villagers who have lived through the terrible year of 1971 are still alive, they would freely testify to the make believe nature of the alleged casualty figure. 

2.9 Certain Local Testimonies:
Jessore is a boarder district, nearest to Calcutta. The Provisional Government of Bangladesh was presented before the world at Baidayanathtala, a border village of the same district and throughout the civil war the district remained a hotly contested and disruptive area. From a part of Jessore, Maulana Khandkar Abul Khair, a popular religious preacher and published author of several widely circulated books, has said: 

"I clearly remember, in our Jessore district there was hardly any village from which 20/25 people did not flee to India. But I shall be able to name numerous villages which did not experience a single killing. For example, my own village and a number of villages around did not encounter a single death." [6]

Jauhuri, a Bangladeshi journalist wrote:

&#8220;It is beyond me how three million people could get killed in a guerrilla war of eight months and 21 days. The raping of two hundred thousand women is also beyond my comprehension
. 
I. have spoken to no less than five hundred peoples of different districts and have asked them, 'Has anyone in your family or among your relatives, friends or acquaintance been raped by Pakistani soldiers?' None affirmed, everyone said 'no'. It may be that some of them were ashamed to disclose. Besides, it is not impossible for the Pakistan Army to have a few characterless soldiers. But, how could these produce the figure of two hundred thousand? Moreover' how was this figure arrived at within a week of the liberation of the country? Who did the survey?&#8221; [7]

William Drummond of The Guardian was no less emphatic: 

&#8220;The figure of three million' deaths has been carried uncritically in sections of the world press. My judgement, based on numerous trips around Bangladesh and extensive discussion with many people at the village level as well as in the government, is that the three million deaths is an exaggeration so gross as to be absurd.&#8221; [8] 

Peter Gill, another western journalist, said:

"Sheikh Mujib's wild figure of three million Bengalis killed during those 10 terrible months is at least 20 times too high, if not 50 or 60." [9] 

Reporting from the Noakhali district Abdul Muhaimin, well-known author, Awami League MCA and long time friend of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, had this to say: 

"As a Member of the Constituent Assembly I was entrusted with the responsibility of finding out the casualty figure for the whole of Noakhali district. After contacting different Police Stations and Unions the figure I had was less than seven thousand. Even after adding up the number of Razakars killed, the total did not exceed seven and a half thousand. At that time, Bangladesh had 19 districts. All these districts were not equally affected by the war. Noakhali was one among the districts which had seen severe fighting. If the figure obtained from Noakhali was seen as the mean average for the rest of the districts, even then the total killed would not exceed more than one hundred twenty five thousand. [10] 

So, we are not alone in casting our doubts! Even Sheikh Mujib and his colleagues were not convinced about the story of three or even one million dead and were eager to know the real facts! Was it then that despite telling us 'children' the 'Ghost Story', as grown-up men they knew all along that the 'Monstrous Ghost' did not exist? 

Notes and References
1. Jauhuri, Tirish Lakher Telesmat (The Riddle of Thirty Lakh) Asha Prokashan, 435 Elephant Road, Dhaka - 1217, 1994 : 13. 
2. India's Defence Minister, J agjivan Ram was quoted in Jyoti Sen Gupta, History of Freedom Movement in Bangladesh, 1943-1973 : Some Involvement, Naya Prokash, 206 Bidhan Sarani, Calcutta -6,1974,:305.
3. Oriana Fallaci, Interview with Morarji Desai, The New Repub¬lic, Washington, 2 and 9 August, 1975. 
4: Souvenir of 45 Indian Armored Regiment, December, 1983; also Cf. Subir Bhaumik, Insurgent Crossfire: North-East India, Lancer Publishers, 56 Gautam Nagar,New Delhi, 1996 : 52 
5. Abul Hasanat, The Ugliest Genocide in History, Muktadhara [Swadhin Bangla Sahitya Parishad], 74 Farashganj, Dhaka -1, 1974: 79. 
6. Maulana Abul Khair, Sowal Jwab (Question and Answer), vo1.5; also cfJauhuri, op cit : 52. 
7. Jauhuri, op cit: 14
8. William Drummond, The Missing Millions The Guardian, London, 6 June, 1972. 
9. Peter Gill, Pakistan Holds Together, Daily Telegraph, London, 16 April, 1973. 
10. Yahya Mirza, Interview with Mr Abdul Muhaimin, The Tarokalok, Dhaka, 1 March, 1990 cf. also cf. Jauhuri, ibid: 48-49.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## monitor

3.1. Mujib's Fact-finding Bodies:
As we have seen, according to the PTI news of 7 January 1972, the Bangladesh Government intended to establish the casualty figure. Despite his public utterances claiming that the Pakistan Army had killed three million people and raped three hundred thousand women, Mujib himself was fully aware of the fact that the figures he was made to quote had simply been plucked from the air and had no factual basis. Indeed, not only the post-16 December expanded Government of Bangladesh was on record committing themselves to conduct a survey for establishing the casualty figure, Mujib himself set up, not one but two separate bodies to find the fact of how many were killed. 

3.2. Mujib Asked MCAs for Information on 'Genocide'
On 16 January 1972 newspapers in Bangladesh carried news saying that Sheikh Mujib had ordered his party workers and Members of the Constituent Assembly to collect detailed information on the Pakistan Army's 'genocide' in Bangladesh and to file them with the Awami League Office within two weeks. This is how the daily Bangladesh Observer, a stable mate of the Purbadesh, reported Mujib's move:
"Sheikh Mujibur Rahman on Saturday asked the Awami League workers and MCAs to collect detailed reports on genocide, arson and looting committed by the Pakistani Army in Bangladesh and to submit these data to the Awami League Office within 15 days." [1] 
It was not clear whether the instruction he had issued was an official one from the Government, or simply an informal move on his part as the Awami League chief. His next move in this respect seemed to suggest that it was an unofficial drive to mobilize the Awami League party machine for gathering 'on-the-ground' information. Whether formal or not, given the fact that in those euphoric days his words were heeded to as if they were 'edicts from the sovereign', the force of his instruction could not be underestimated. That it was more than a general drive to gather information could also be seen from the fact that a specific MCA from each district was particularly asked to lead and co-ordinate the data gathering efforts.[2] 

3.3. Mujibs Inquiry Committee
Within 14 days of the first move, Sheikh Mujib formally instituted a 12-member Inquiry Committee. On 29 January 1972 the Government decision and the membership of the committee was announced through a gazette notice.

Abdur Rahim, Deputy Inspector General of Police, was appointed the chairman of the Inquiry Committee and the members included: 

Prof. Khurshed Alam, MCA (Comilla); 
Mr Mahmud Hussain Khan, MCA (Bogra); 
Mr Abdul Hafiz, MCA (Jessore); 
Mr Mohiuddin Ahmed, member National Awami Party (NAP);
Mr Jalaluddin Miah, former Superintendent of Police; 
Mr Muhammed Ali, Deputy Secretary, Ministry of Agriculture; 
Mr T. Hussain, Superintending Engineer, 
Mr Muhiuddin, Director of Public Instructions; 
Dr Mubarrak Hussain, Deputy Director, Health, 
Wing Com. K.M. Islam, Bangladesh Air Force; and 
Mr M.A. Hye, Deputy Secretary, Establishment Division, Ministry of Home Affairs. 

The Gazette notification said that the responsibility of the Inquiry Committee would be to establish the exact extent of the loss in life and property suffered by the people of the country due to the operation of the Pakistan Army and their Collaborators. Where possible the Committee would also identify the culprits by name. Hope was also expressed that the public would fully co-operate with the Committee by supplying them with information. The Inquiry Committee was asked to submit their report to the Government by 30 April 1972.[3].

3.4. Mujibs Rape Victims Became Bengali Heroines:
Clearly up to this point Mujib was nor indolent on war victims; he was decisively moving to find out their precise numbers and arrange help for them. He was not alone in this as Sheikh Abdul Aziz's announcement of 7 January 1972 showed that the Government intended to establish a casualty figure. As a matter of fact, even before the newly appointed Communication Minister's discloser, Qamruzzaman, the Home Minister of the four-member provisional Government of Bangladesh, had announced from Calcutta on 'Swadhin Bangla Betar' on 22 December 1971 that his Government had decided to describe every rape 'victim' as a heroine of Bangladesh's freedom struggle. The next day this news was flashed in all Bangladesh newspapers, including the Purbadesh edited by Ehtesham Haider Choudhury. [4]

The Government of Bangladesh opened up a number of Centre for the Bengali Heroines at Dhaka and other places. The Dhaka centre, housed at a large complex in the affluent Eskaton area, was headed by one Jahangir Haider, a relation of Mujib. This and other Centre for the Bengali Heroines were given maximum publicity and once or twice news with photographs of Government sponsored marriages of a few such 'heroines' with 'patriotic and liberated Bengali nationalists' was published in the Dhaka newspapers. Among foreign visitors of the time, Kurt Waldheim, the Secretary General of the UN and his wife were also taken round to meet the 'heroines' housed in the Dhaka centre.

3.5. Mujib Instituted Compensation Scheme:
In January 1972 Mujib also announced a compensation scheme for the families of those who had been killed at the hands of the Pakistan Army and their collaborators. Under the scheme, every victim's family was promised TK 2,000 as compensation. [5] A media campaign was started to encourage victim's families to apply for the compensation. 

3.6. Punishment for War Crime:
Alongside all these concrete actions, the Collaborators Ordinance was proclaimed to punish those who had supported the Pakistan Army and had worked to preserve the unity of Pakistan. Thousands of Pakistani patriots, who were lucky enough to escape the indiscriminate killing' of the early days, were rounded up and placed under detention in jails crowded many times over their capacity limits.[6] 

Apart from the systematic drive to penalize the huge number of patriotic Muslims and Buddhists who had refused to be beguiled by the Awami League/Indian machination, the Mujib Government also vouched for its determination to try and punish the members of the Pakistani Army for their alleged 'War Crime', Mujib presented it as a matter of personal honour and unequivocally promised that nothing would stop him from punishing the 'Pakistani War Criminals', [7] 

3.7. Mujib Dearly Wanted Proof:
Clearly Mujib and his Government were not just slavish growlers intent on only slapping verbal accusations, they were determined vindictive who dearly wanted all manner of proof of 'Pakistani Crime', In this they showed motivation and made all conceivable moves to encourage, even entice, people in helping them with proof. The proof wanted was not water-tight evidence, only a nominal claim of sufferance, 'The Father of the Nation, Friend of Bengal, President of the Awami League and Prime Minister Sheikh Mujibur Rahman' - as he was then respectfully mentioned in all official and unofficial references - had no reason for being disobliged by his idolizing 'liberated children', especially when they had a compensation of Tk 2,000 and other rewards awaiting for them. Yet, in the end Mujib and his Government preferred to keep studied silence over the outcome of their fact findings as if these have never been attempted. What happened then with the MCAs' report which was set in motion on 15 January 1972? What became of the report of the 12-member Inquiry Committee which was formed on 29 January 1972 and was asked to report on or before 30 April 1972?

Notes and References
1. The Bangladesh Observer, Dhaka? 16 January 1972.
2. Yahya Mirza, Interview with Mr Abdul Muhaimin, The Tarokalok, Dhaka, 1 March, 1990; also cf. Jauhuri, Tirish Lakher Telesmat (The Riddle of Thirty Lakh): Asha Prokashan, 435 Elephant Road, Dhaka - 1217, 1994 : 48. 
3. Jauhuri, ibid: 65.
4. The Purbadesh, Dhaka, 23 December, 1971. 
5. Yahya Mirza, op cit, also cf. Jauhuri, op cit: 50 
6. M.M.Is1am, The Forgotten Thousands, 23A Highbury Grange, London N5, n.d.:2 and Matiur Rahman and Naeem Hasan, Iron Bars of Freedom, Research and Documentation, London, 1980: 15 
7. The Statesman, Calcutta, 11 January, 1972.

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

*4.1. The MCAs Report:*
The MCAs whom Mujib personally assigned to the task of finding the casualty figures of their respective districts apparently went ahead with their task. With the help of their local district, subdivision, thana, and union Awami League party and governmental machineries, the MCAs concerned begun collating the ground level known casualty figures.

As has already been mentioned, for the district of Noakhali, one of the worst war affected districts of Bangladesh, Abdul Muhaimin could gather together a total of less than seven and. a half thousand reported losses of life. These included Razakars who fought to save Pakistan and were mercilessly killed by the armed Mukti Bahinis mainly after the surrender of the Pakistan Army on 16 December 1971. Even taking Noakhali as a representative of all the other 19 districts of Bangladesh, some of which hardly saw any action, the overall loss of life could not have been computed beyond one hundred and twenty-five thousand. [1] 

Apparently, Abdul Muhaimin was not alone in coming up with such an unexpectedly disappointing casualty figure. A few others also came up with such unwelcome truths about the loss of life, property and honour. It has been said that once the MCAs concerned started reporting their preliminary findings to Mujib, the Bangladesh Prime Minister lost his trust in the ability of his Constituent Assembly colleagues to provide him with the expected proof of Pakistan Army's genocide. Being disappointed at their inefficiency, he then formed the 12-member strong Inquiry Committee under Abdur Rahim. [2] 

4.2. The Inquiry Committee Report:
The Inquiry Committee seemed to have also failed Mujib in giving him the kind of truth he was after. The Government of Bangladesh never said a word about officially receiving the report, which was, as per as the original Gazette notification, due on or before 30 April 1972 or what happened to the Inquiry Committee's work. 

On 6 June 1972, William Drummond reported: 

"Since the third week of March, when the Inspector General's office in the Bangladesh Home Ministry began its field investigations, there have been about 2,000 complaints from citizens about deaths at the hands of the Pakistan Army have been received." [3] 

Later, sources in Bangladesh reported that the draft report showed an overall casualty figure of 56,743. When a copy of this draft report was shown to the Prime Minister, 

"he lost his temper and threw it on the floor, saying in angry voice 'I have declared three million dead, and your report could not come up with three score thousand! What report you have prepared? Keep your report to yourself. What I have said once, shall prevail." [4] 

4.3. The Claim for Compensation:
Seemingly, the claim for compensation from the families of the war victims also did not bring much joy for Mujib and his Government. As has already been mentioned, according to Col. Akbar Hussain's disclosure at the National Assembly of Bangladesh, the number of claimants did not exceed three hundred thousand. But, according to Abdul Muhaimin, the Ministry of Finance, Government of Bangladesh, had informed him that, 

"Only 72,000 claims were received. Of them relatives of 50,000 victims had been awarded the declared sum of money. There had been many bogus claims, even some from the Razakars, within those 72,000 applications." [5] 

Whatever be the actual figure, the 'victims' whose relatives were compensated might not be all victims of the Pakistan Army. A large number of refugees, 1.6 million according to one Awami League journalist [6], died in Indian refugee camps. Those who claimed compensation, also included families of many such dead refugees. Besides, there were also many false claimants.

4.4. The Bengali Heroines:
Once the euphoria of 'liberation' started ebbing, the Bengali heroines silently disappeared from the news. One of the later-day myth makers could only report in 1974 that altogether about a hundred of them had been given into marriage at the various centres. [7] How many heroines were housed at such centres, how and when such centres were closed and what happened to the inmates, remained a closely guarded secret up to now. Here too, apparently the hard facts were too embarrassing to be disclosed. 

There is little doubt whatever 'hard facts' Mujib had received from his MCAs and the Inquiry Committee, that these did not come any where remotely close to the three million figure raised and by implication made the claim of the alleged systematic killing aimed at genocide look ridiculous. Not surprisingly Mujib and his Government hurriedly placed a firm lid on the hard facts. Led by him, very conveniently they all went crying for the three million dead and three hundred thousand raped and spat venom on the Pakistani Army and their collaborators who, after all, had no chance of replying. 

Notes and References

1. Yahya Mirza, Interview with Mr Abdul Muhaimin; The Tarokalok, Dhaka, I March 1990; also cf. Jauhuri, Tirish Lakher Telesmat (The Riddle of Thirty Lakh) Asha Prokashan, 435 Elephant Road, Dhaka -1217, 1994: 48. 
2. Jauhuri, ibid: 64-65
3. William Drummond, The Missing Millions, The Guardian, London, 6 June, 1972. 
4. op cit: 64
5. ibid: 50
6. Abdul Gaffar Choudhury, Shahosh Kore Kichu Shotto Katha Bala Proyojon (With Courage a Few Truth Need to be Said), The Dainik Janapad, Dhaka, 20 May, 1973. 
7. Abul Hasanat, The Ugliest Genocide in History, Muktadhara Swadhin Bangla Sahitya Parishad, 74 Farashganj, Dhaka - 1, 1974:78


----------



## Night_Raven

I know lots of Bangladeshis here were not born at the time of the Liberation War of 1971.

Maybe you can browse through some eye witness accounts , including that of West Pakistanis , to get an idea of what was transpiring at that time than relying on BS conspiracy theories by the likes of Zaid Hamid :

Bangladesh Genocide Archive » Rape of Bengal: Humanity&#8217;s Darkest Hour

Virtual Bangladesh : History : Eyewitness accounts, Rafiqul Islam

Bangladesh Genocide Archive » An eye witness to surrender &#8211; Mazher Saeed, Pakistani naval officer

Bangladesh Watchdog: Bangladesh Liberation War: A Personal Diary


Read up guys , pay your respects , think on your head and decide logically on who was the aggressor and for that reason...


----------



## monitor

*Behind the Myth of 3 million - Chapter - V: The Recycling of the Myth * 

Written by Dr. M. Abdul Mu&#8217;min Chowdhury 
Thursday, 01 February 1996 00:00 
Article Index
Behind the Myth of 3 million 
Chapter- I: The Making of The Myth 
Chapter - II: The Probity of the Myth 
Chapter - III: Mujib's Search for Fact 
Chapter - IV: The Truth that Mujib Suppressed 
Chapter - V: The Recycling of the Myth 
Chapter - VI: The Forgotten Humanity 
Chapter - VII: The Glimpses of Truth 
Chapter - VIII: Behind the Myth 
All Pages 

Page 6 of 9


5.1. The Later-Day Peddlers of the Myth:
Because Mujib and his Government could not face hard facts and continued to assert unfounded claims, certain individuals and groups hurbouring hatred against Islam and Pakistan had a 'field-day'. Since they had no fresh accusation to make against Pakistan, recycling the old accusation, however ridiculous, became their preoccupation. Numerous articles and a large number of books were written not only with the avowed aim of recording 'Pakistani Crime' but also conveniently saying hosanna to the 'greatest Bengali of all time' and claiming a share of the glory that was the 'freedom movement in Bangladesh'

The situation was opportune. While the Indians professed to having trained 130,000 'freedom fighters' [1], 3,300,000 actually claimed that distinction and obtained certificates by all manner of means to prove that they were bona fide. [2] Those who could not make such a claim because of age, domicile, or some such reason, became seers, soothsayers, or, at the very least, sufferers for Bangladesh. All of them sang and swore. Indeed, what better target for swearing could there be, other than the &#8216;abnormal Pakistan&#8217; and the &#8216;abominable Pakistan Army&#8217;?


5.2. Two Examples:
To give some idea of the recycling enterprises of the time, I shall choose two out of the many possible: Abul Hasanat's &#8216;The Ugliest Genocide in History&#8217; and Jyoti Sen Gupta's &#8216;History of Freedom Movement in Bangladesh 1943-1973 - Some Involvement&#8217;. Both of these were written in 1974, the first by a retired Bangladeshi police officer and the second by an Indian journalist from West Bengal.

5.3. The Ugliest Genocide:
The author of 'The Ugliest Genocide in History', Abul Hasanat was a retired Inspector General of Police and a professed atheist in his seventies. Although he opted for Pakistan in 1947 and had enjoyed the highest office in its Police Service, he did not find any difficulty in depicting his once chosen country 'A Geographical Monstrosity' [3] and saying that 'Jinnah Arrogantly Merged the Two Wings'. [4] As if this was not enough for him to say 'Hail Bangladesh', he went on reciting hosanna to Mujib:

&#8220;Bangladesh is the sole handiwork of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, our great leader, devotedly served by a band of tireless workers and supported by 99% of the population. Any Zaid, Amr, Bakr with a fair capability can top the Army, Navy, Police and Civil Services but a leader like Mujib is a rare product of a century or so. We salute Mujib for his unswerving devotion to a just cause, his unflinching fortitude in suffering and his unflagging conviction about the ultimate victory. His has been the victory and we share the glory." [5] 

Of course, as expected of his kind, he did not forget those who really mattered: 

"We salute our great neighbour, the biggest and the most stable post-war Democracy. In spite of tremendous difficulties, it has never thought of Martial Law or a hand-over to the Army. It has been led by illustrious and irreproachable figures - Nehru, Shastri and Mrs Gandhi.

Mrs. Gandhi has upheld lofty human principles by coming all out for the stricken people of East Bengal. Her people have supported her in the noble struggle, and her armed forces in alliance with our Mukti Bahini have taught the Punjabi-Pathan hordes the lesson of their life. We shall be eternally grateful to the Indian people, so near and dear to us." [6] 

"In this connection," wrote Abul Hasanat, "let us recall the MARVELOUS SELF-RESTRAINT OF INDIAN HINDUS!" [7] and went on recycling the proof of the Pakistan Army's Punjabi-Pathan hordes' 'The Ghastly Genocide' [8] A large selection of foreign journalists' reports which appeared in world press before December 1971 accusing Pakistan of committing genocide in East Pakistan were, of course, included. But despite every conceivable hyperbole, so far as the 'concrete proof' only the following were provided: 

* Kushtia, a city of 40,000 looked &#8216;like the morning after a nuclear attack&#8217; [9] 
* 400,000 women, known to have been raped. [10] 
* 200,000 fell pregnant to West Pakistani soldiers. [11] * About 400 killed at Chuadanga. [12] 
* 200 students Killed at Iqbal Hall [13] 
* 20,000 killed in Jessore town. [14] 


5.4. History of Freedom Movement:
Reserving comment on the concrete 'facts' made available by Abul Hasanat, let me turn to Jyoti Sen Gupta. He was, by his own claim, someone 'who had also some involvement in the struggle of the Bengalis of "East Pakistan". This claim coming from a foreign journalist may sound strange. But, then, India was not a passive neighbour: nor was Gupta an ordinary news reporter. He was in the 1950s, as he said by quoting Pakistan intelligence, &#8216;at the top of the list as a dangerous man who is out to destroy Pakistan.&#8217; and thereafter &#8216;in constant touch with developments secretly taking place in East Pakistan&#8217;. [15] His 'insider' story is fascinating and throws light on the extent and depth of Indian &#8216;political engineering&#8217; behind the rise of Bangladesh and therefore deserves our close attention.

Apart from other issues, Jyoti Sen Gupta did not forget covering the &#8216;Full-scale Genocide&#8217; [16] which Pakistan allegedly committed in Bangladesh. More significantly he claimed that Pakistan Army had killed 3.5 million [17] and this figure had supposedly been mentioned .by Sheikh Mujib. [18] To lend credibility to his claim, he has recycled varieties of &#8216;proofs&#8217; from different sources, including the Government of India. Let me list those mentioned:

* All the inmates of Jagannath Hall and Iqbal Hall were slaughtered. [19] At Iqbal Hall, although the number killed is uncertain, not one survivor was found. At Jagannath Hall all 103 students were killed. Some students were forced at gunpoint to dig a mass grave in the field of the hall and they too were shot. [20] 
* All the inmates of Ruqaiya Hall were kidnapped to the cantonment and those who resisted were killed. Many jumped from the windows and many others committed suicide. [21] 
* Ten faculty members of Dhaka University were killed on the night of 26 March 1971. [22] 
* 50,000 Buddhists were slaughtered. [23]
* 7,000 bodies were seen scattered near a Church in Jessore. [24] 
* Most of 5,000 Policemen at Dhaka barracks had been killed [25] 
* 60 per cent police force were killed [26] 
* 25,000 to 35,000 killed in Shakharipatti (a Dhaka street) alone. [27] 
* 500 were burnt at the office of Ittefaq.[28] 
* 250 murdered at Ramna Kalibari. [29] 
* At least 17,000 Awami Leaguers were killed [30] 
* 100,000 killed in the district of Khulna. [31] 
* 100,000 killed in Chittagong [32] 


5.5. Sifting facts from fictions:
There was no disagreement on the fact that on the night of 26 March 1971 the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan was sent out of their barracks to re-establish government authority and to sort out the secessionists. Like any such army crack down, it was swift, sharp and brutal. There could be no doubt that many innocent, as well as not so innocent, people got killed, not just on that fateful night but throughout the nine months desperate battle to save the integrity of the country. The question is not whether, but how many (and in what manner, perhaps) people were killed? 

In the confusing situation of a civil war, especially one that is characterised by insurgency and guerilla warfare, where the bulk of the civilian population found themselves engulfed by the conflict, often literally at the middle of cross fire, people's falling victim at the hands of either of the fighting forces was almost inevitable. In such a situation, a certain degree of confusion and misreporting were also expected. Moreover, as in with any war, deceit, disinformation and propaganda had their part. In the light of all of this, the charges against the Pakistan Army that were repeatedly alleged all over the world, the degree of magnification was astounding by any previous known standards though, were understandable. But what was perplexing was the attempt to pass on these highly exaggerated 'reports', saturated with lies, under the guise of authentic accounts long after the end of the conflict when a little endeavour on the part of the writers could have helped establish the hard facts. This could not be innocuous.


5.6. The Alleged Killing at the Dhaka University:
Both Abul Hasanat and Jyoti Sen Gupta have made pointed claims about the Pakistan Army's killing of students and teachers in the Dhaka University on the night of 26 March 1971. In Western democracies' an armed attack on teachers and students is not easily understood, far less considered justifiable in any circumstances. Therefore, the reported killing provoked a deep sense of outrage and condemnation. [33] The fact that some of the student dormitories were transformed into arsenals and insurgency training centres [34] and a number of the university teachers were actively involved with the secessionist movement [35] were suppressed. That the secessionists were buying arms years before the Army crack down was disclosed by Gupta himself. [36] Those who were involved in organising armed training have themselves reported that at one time there as even a plan for some of them to have military training in Indonesia. [37] 

Although Jyoti Sen Gupta avoided specifically quoting the number of those killed at Iqbal Hall, the headquarters of the secessionist student leadership, he has left ample hints that it was very high. Abul Hasanat, on the other hand, has dispensed with all these clever tricks and has given a precise figure of 200. Since at the time in question I was a House Tutor at that very hall and survived the fateful night in one of the staff quarters within the building, I can claim to be an eye witness to it all. I can categorically say that on that night student activists hurriedly evacuated the hall hours before the arrival of the Army and only one student - Chishti Helalur Rahman- was killed. Indeed, if I remember correctly after Bangladesh came into being the hall administration had a total casualty figure of sixteen from among their resident and non-resident students numbering over two thousands for the whole length of the conflict. Two of my former colleagues at Iqbal Hall -Prof. Anwarul Haque Sharif (now at Jahangirnagar University) and Prof. Saefullah Bhuiya (still at Dhaka University) - are still alive and can corroborate what I have said here. Besides, if Gupta and Hasanat were interested in factual truth, they could have taken the trouble of contacting either the university or the hall authorities and certainly find out the definitive figure. What stopped them. form doing so?, one must ask. 

Likewise, the killing at Jagannath Hall has been deliberately exaggerated. A poorly recorded video film of the Army movement within the hall premises was later produced. The video, it was claimed, showed the Army using bull-dozers for digging a mass grave. Although special viewing have been arranged to show the video film in and outside Bangladesh, surprisingly up until now no one has bothered to look for the alleged mass grave. Gupta, who has shown a special interest in Jagannath Hall, would have been more believable if he had enquired about the mass grave and had ascertained from the hall authorities the total number of casualties, not only on that night but throughout the whole war. The plain and simple truth is that no such grave existed and that was the reason why the author of the 'Freedom Movement in Bangladesh' stayed away from the supposed Pakistan Army 'killing field'. 

In this connection it is worth recalling that immediately after the fall of Dhaka to the Indian Army, there were newspaper reports claiming unearthing of mass graves. But, none of these were seriously followed up and later the stories of these mass graves were conveniently forgotten. Even our two authors avoided any reference to them. However, on the unearthed mass graves William Drummond reported:

"Of course, there are 'mass graves' all over Bangladesh. But nobody, not even the rabid Pakistani hater, has yet asserted that all these mass graves account for more than about 1,000 victims. Furthermore, because a body is found in a mass grave does not necessarily mean that the victim was killed by the Pakistan Army. In the days immediately preceding the March 25, 1971 crackdown by the Pakistan Army, virtual anarchy prevailed in the province. In fact a sinister suspicion has arisen since, that the bodies discovered in mass graves might well have belonged to Biharis, perhaps even Bengalis killed by other Bengalis." [38] 

Unlike Iqbal Hall and Jagannath Hall, both of which at least came under fire and suffered casualties, Ruqaiya Hall did not come under the Army's attention either on the night of 25 March 1971 or at any other time. Although Gupta has not mentioned the source of his accusation; it is apparently based on a leaflet that was circulated in London. The Vice Chancellor of the Dhaka University, Syed Sajjad Husain, on his visit to London in 1971 was told about this leaflet: 

"When I went to Tanveer Ahmed's (Education Attache) room, whom I. knew before, we talked on various matters. He pulled out a leaflet written in large English letters from his drawer and showed it to me. He said a Bengali woman, who was known to him, was distributing it on the streets of London. The leaflet had it, 'If you have any conscience, then protest against the beastliness.' Under it there were a number of horrifying tales. A father was quoted saying that on the night of the 25th the Army entered the women's hall in Dhaka. There they have not only gunned down many girls, but have also committed beastly oppression on them. The homosexual Pathan soldiers have raped the girls in beastly manner. The father further said that when these were enacted on the ground floor, about fifty girls saw this from the upper floor. When they realised that their turn would come next, they committed suicide by jumping from the upper floor. Included among them was the daughter of the narrator. When Tanveer Ahmed protested and told the lady that she should know that there was no truth behind this, her reply was "Every thing is fair in love and war". 

I told Tanveer Shaheb that I myself have spoken to Mrs Ali Imam, the Provost of the women's hall. What I have learnt from her was that after 7th March most of the girls left the hall. On the 24th there were only five girls in the hall. When rumors started spreading in Dhaka about the possibility of Army action, under Mrs Imam' s directive these girls left the hall and took shelter in the home of a House Tutor. So there could not be any question of oppression or rape being suffered by the girls of the hall." [39] 

Gupta's list showing 10 faculty members had been killed is largely correct. The total was nine rather than 10 [40] and the responsibility for it was admitted by the Pakistan military authorities. But, strangely he has also quoted two other lists which were circulated by the Indian Government on the authority of foreign witnesses. [41] That some of the names included in those two lists were either nonexistent or suffered no harm was glossed over. That it has shown how some so-called foreign eye witnesses deliberately took upon themselves the task of spreading lies in order to inflame the situation was never pointed out. In this connection, it may be recalled that during the conflict a number of faculty members led by the Vice Chancellor issued a statement listing the correct casualty figure. Yet, some interested quarters abroad condemned their efforts as 'Pakistan Government instigated lies' and all of them were made to suffer in 'liberated' Bangladesh. [42] 

The discrepancies between his own list and two other lists which he had included in his book should have made Gupta realise the gap between what was reported and what in fact had happened and led him to be more observant. Had either Gupta or Hasanat been a little more caring about the factual truth, rather than being over-sanguine in condemning Pakistan and her Army indiscriminately, they would have visited the Dhaka University. There they would have seen a comprehensive list of 'martyrs' on public display with the names of all those staffs and students of the university who had lost lives during the whole conflict. And from that plaque they could have counted that the total losses suffered was no more than ///. The fact that they did not, shows their buccaneer approach to truth and the utter hollowness of their casualty figures.


5.7. The Alleged Killing in Other Parts of Dhaka:
Writing about the Rajarbag police barracks, Jyoti Sen Gupta has recorded, on the authority of an American report, that most of the 5,000 policemen who were killed were those who advanced on the night of 25 March 1971 to resist the Pakistan task force intending to quell the disturbance. This claim appeared on page 284 of his book. Yet, on page 274 of his book Gupta himself told us that 'Rajarbag had about 2,500 jawans of Special Force and the Provincial Police Force'! On page 276 he transformed this 'about 2,500' into a firm figure of 2,500 'Bengali policemen'. What Gupta noted in terms of figures was in complete disregard of truth. This became obvious when he made further astounding claim that 60 per cent of the country's police force were killed. The missing members of the Police Force were not beyond accounting. The Police establishment records were in existence. Anyone inclined to believe this Indian propagandist would be well advised to check with the Police Headquarters to find out the enormity of his lie.

Talking about the exactitude of numbers, I would like to ask readers to compare Gupta' s number from 25,000 to 35,000 killed at Shankaripatti, to Anthony Mascarenhas' s estimate of 8,000 for the same part of old Dhaka. [43] The source of the American report of implied 5,000 killed at Rajarbag was, none other than the Goanese-born journalist [44] who was later rewarded by the Mujib Government with 'a London House' for his service in putting slur on Pakistan. [45] At least Gupta could take pride in having beaten the 'defecting' Pakistani journalist in the 'make-up your number' game with regard to Shankaripatti. As seasoned propagandists, perhaps, both of them knew that few readers would ever bother to see whether a small narrow street, where the alleged killing took place, could have accommodated such a number of people. Had either Gupta or Mascarenhas ever visited the street, they would have been ashamed to put such a figure. 

One is tempted to say the same as regards Gupta' s casualty figure concerning Ramna Kalibari which got virtually destroyed on the night of 25 March 1971. It was one of the clandestine 'meeting place' of the 'liberationist' student leaders [46] and that could be the reason why it attracted the Army's seize. Anyone who has seen the temple, with no housing facilities around, would find it difficult to understand where from such a large number of people came to be there. Such a temple normally accommodates a priest and his family. For a family of priest to provide 250 'martyrs' for the 'freedom movement in Bangladesh' must rank as an extraordinary contribution. 

Similarly, one wonders how and where Gupta got the figure of 500 burnt to death at the Ittefaq office from? The Ittefaq newspaper office is under the same owners who to-date have not said anything to support for Gupta's claim. Why not, if it was the truth? My checking shows that no one can remember reading in the paper a claim such as Gupta' s. It is amazing what Gupta could see from Calcutta, could not be seen by the owners or their management some thing which supposed to have taken place in their premises. What an amazing example of Gupta's journalistic integrity. 


5.8. Fifty thousand Buddhist Killed?
Gupta has revamped an old report which claimed that during the early period of the conflict some 50,000 Buddhists were slaughtered by the Pakistan Army in the north of Bangladesh. But, was there even a remotely causal explanation why the Buddhist had to suffer such a retribution at the hand of the Pakistan Army? The answer is none. On the contrary, others have reported that through out the conflict, the Chittagong Hill Tract, where the country's Buddhist population were and still are concentrated, was a no-go area for the pro-Bangladesh insurgents. Moreover, it is a well known fact that the Chakma Chief, Raja Tridiv Roy, staunchly stood against the dismemberment of Pakistan. Even now his loyalty towards united Pakistan is such that he has remained a Pakistani citizen! It was not the Raja alone, other tribal chiefs and notables, belonging to the area and having the Buddhist faith, also stood up for Pakistan. Because of their unflinching faith in Pakistan some tribal chiefs were put behind the bars by the Mujib Government as 'Pakistani collaborators'. [47] Anyone who is familiar with the current Chakma insurgency in Bangladesh would know that it all began because of the Buddhist Chakma tribesmen's refusal to be counted as part' of Mujib's 'Bengali Nation' . [48] Against this background, Gupta's attempt to recycle propaganda report is nothing but tall tale. I have heard some of my countrymen making statement of anguish against Pakistan Army, but I have heard none accusing Pakistan Army of killing any Buddhist tribesmen. I am sure, if Gupta had bothered to check with any member of the Buddhist faith of Chittagong Hill Tract, the Buddhist tribesmen in their characteristic politeness would have invited him in and cooperated with Gupta's enquiry. Gupta did not do that since he knew that the result of his inquiry would have been unfruitful for him. 


5.9. Seventeen thousand Awami Leaguers Killed?
Another revelation from the same author was that during the disturbance a total of 17,000 Awami Leaguers gave up their lives for Bangladesh. However, it was strange that he could name only one Awami Leaguer - Mosihur Rahman, MNA from Jessore [49] Like most of his claims, he did not feel the necessity of telling us where he came to have this figure from. 

Why could not Gupta name more than one Awami Leaguer? The answer is no Awami League parliamentarian, other than Mosihur Rahman, was killed. The plain truth is that not a single provincial, district, subdivision, or even thana Awami League office bearer 'gave his life' for Bangladesh. Nor any of the publicly known figure of its students or labour wing was reported to have been killed. 


5.10. Alleged Destruction and Killing in Kushtia, Jessore, Khulna and Chittagong:
Abul Hasanat, the author of The Ugliest Genocide stated on the strength of an agency report which in its turn based its news on the authority of a certain World Bank Team that while liberating Kushtia from the Mukti Bahini, the Pakistan Army had turned Kushtia town of 40,000 people into an utterly devastated land, as if it had suffered a nuclear attack. The implication was that none of its inhabitants was spared. This again was nothing more than a fantasy. If our author really believed in what he stated, he would have immediately visited the town after the evacuation of the Pakistan Army, with the intention of helping anyone who may have survived the alleged army action. That would have been an utmost priority for a professed humanist like Hasanat. As an experienced and well read police officer, he would have known that even Hiroshima and Nagasaki had their few survivors. Had he made such a visit, he would have found that what he stated was lie. He did not do that because in that case he would not have been able to avail the opportunity of re-telling the tales of the 'Ghastly Genocide' supposedly committed by the 'Punjabi-Pathanhordes'!

The claims that 20,000 were killed in Jessore town, 100,000 in Khulna district and 100,000 in Chittagong also fall into the above genre of lie. If these were true why did not both the claims attract simultaneous attention of both the authors? The plain and simple answer is that each figure was cooked up story of each propagandist. Besides, both Jessore and Khulna do still exist and at least a portion of their present day population had lived through those troublesome days. It is easy to establish the truth by questioning the local people. Earlier, we have seen a reputable author from Jessore, Maulana Abul Khair, telling us what the real condition of his district was. After reading the statements of Abul Hasanat and Jyoti Sen Gupta and then listening to Maulana Abul Khair, the man from the spot, one could not help but feel revulsion towards the myth makers. 


5.11. Four Hundred Thousand Raped and Two Hundred Thousand Pregnant?
Apparently Abul Hasanat was not least bothered about what ordinary men and women on the spot would think of his shameless efforts, so long the 'Men That Mattered' [50] were pleased. For the benefit of his mission, he was even prepared to up-stage the 'Men That Mattered'! Otherwise he would not have belched out the above, when even his 'great leader' the 'rare product of a century or so' could not contemplate mouthing the same! 

This product of superhuman divination was on the authority of a Sydney Surgeon who had purportedly spent six weeks in Bangladesh. The figure quoted give away the lie. Anyone with a minimum knowledge of female physiology would find the alleged 50 per cent pregnancy, rate utterly unbelievable. The good doctor had further said, we were reminded by our good author, that 'Between 150,000 and 170,000 of the 200,000 who fell pregnant were aborted in highly undesirable but unavoidable conditions before we even knew the problem existed.' [51] So at least between 30,000 and 50,000 raped victims were known and they and their babies were cared for? Lest you want to know where these victims were, the honest doctor has already provided the answer: 'As soon as they gave sarees to them a number did hang themselves. Many tied stones to themselves and jumped off bridges. Thousands of survivors have been abandoned by their families .. .' [52] 

But what we would like to know how all these figures were arrived at? What happened to the remains of those who hanged themselves with saris (given by an agency?) or jumped off bridges? What happened to those abandoned thousands? If the Surgeon from Sydney could have all these information, surely our author could have also obtain them. Why he did not? Moreover, why the then Bangladesh Government kept these highly incriminatory facts hidden? Most of all why the 'guardians of the spirit of liberation' did not collate a few shred of such a damning truth? As we have seen earlier, Jauhuri, the Bangladeshi journalist, did try to find from the people from various districts of the country and none claimed to have personally known an incident of rape. 

So what is to be made of such allegations? There must be one and only one conclusion: they were manufactured in the same manner as the myth of three million was manufactured. 


Notes and References
1. Jyoti Sen Gupta, History of Freedom Movement in Bangladesh 1943-1973: Some Involvement, NayaProkash, 206 Bidhan Sarani, Calcutta - 6, 1974 : 305. 
2. Disclosure at the Press Conference of the Mukti Juddha Sangsad held on 5 February 1992 and reported in all Dhaka newspapers the next day. 
3. Abul Hasanat, The Ugliest Genocide in History, Muktadhara [Swadhin Bangla Sahitya Parishad] 74 Farashganj, Dhaka - I, 1974: 26-34. 
4. ibid: 35-36
5. ibid: : 20 
6. ihid: : 22 
7. ibid: : 19 
8. ibid : 42f. 
9. ibid: : 52 
10. ibid: : 77 
11. ibid : 77 
12. ibid : 88 
13. ibid : 114
14. ibid: 132 
15. Jyoti Sen Gupta, op cit : xxiii 
16. ibid : 281-312 
17. ibid : 304
18. ibid : 445
19. ibid : 283 
20. ibid : 292 
21. ibid : 289 
22. ibid : 288 
23. ibid : 288 
24. ibid : 284
25. ibid : 293
26. ibid : 293
27. ibid : 295
28. ibid : 304
29. ibid : 311
30. ibid : 304
31. ibid : 311
32. ibid : 320
33. Syed Sajjad Husain, Ekattarer Sriti (Memoirs of 1971), Notun Safar Prakashani, 44 Purana Paltan, Dhaka - 1, 1993 : 68-75. 
34. I can say this from my personal knowledge of Iqbal Hall and the banglow next to it which later became Abu Sayeed Hall. 
35. For an account of such a teacher's secessionist activity as early as 1954 Cf. Alexander Campbell, The Heart of India, Constable & Company Ltd, London, 1958: 258-68 This Lecturer in Political Science, was rewarded by India in 1972 with an honourary doctorate and Bangladesh Government appointed him as the country's first National Professor.
36. Jyoti Sen Gupta, op cit : xxiii 
37. Kazi Arif Ahmed's interview in The Weekly Meghna, vol.III, no. 14, Dhaka, 18 March, 1987. 
38. William Drummond, The Missing Millions, The Guardian, London, 6 June, 1972.
39. Syed Sajjad Husain, op cit : 65-66 
40. ibid
41. Jyoti Sen Gupta, op cit : 283;286 
42. Among them were Syed Sajjad Husain, Dr Mohar Ali and Dr Qazi Deen Mohammed. 
43. Anthony Mascarenhas, The Rape of Bangladesh, Vikas Publications, 5 Daryaganj, Ansari Road, Delhi - 6, 1971 : 114 
44. ibid: 114
45. After Mujib's death this Bangladesh Government demanded the return of the money which was taken from the London branch of the Sonali Bank and it was widely reported in London's Bengali press. 
46. Kaji Arif Ahmed&#8217;s interview, opcit.
47. ibid
48. ibid
49. Jyoti Sen Gupta, op cit : 394 
50. Abul Hasanat, op cit: 17;73
51. ibid: 77
52. ibid: 78

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LaBong

Just as Toxic_Pus already has mentioned, Pakistan Army has been accused of carrying out genocide on Hindu Bengalis and Awami League cadres by ICJ, a point which Agnostic_Muslim choose to ignore.


----------



## Kaniska

@Abir...there is no point in arguing BD friends...as i always say.....it is easy to put a point and make a genuine argument with Pakistani friends rather than BD guys....So basically with this post.....what is the intent that BD guys are trying to potry???..

@BD friends....let us be clear...what are u trying to prove? Indian is a bad off guy in this sub continent????Of course man..there is no one saint in the world of World diplomacy....Do you guys thinking that Indira Gandhi was Mother Teresa that she dont have any bussiness other than helping out the blood brother BD to help get independence????? Come on....dude...India want to teach a lession to Pakistan for so it helped any one who is against Paksiatn..thts pretty simple......But problem is you BD guys are pretty confused minded people.....what is your intent of pushing ahead that India was invloved in genocide?..This is a fact that without India help BD will be struggling under Pakistan army like u r struggling at that time 1971...So what is ur opinion about it??

Of course i know..BD might be thinking that it is better to be under Pakistani ruler than o be independent....if this is the case it is not too late......


----------



## Vinod2070

Wonder why this sudden interest in trying to rewrite history.

Unfortunately for such people, it happened during the media age and there are a lot of contemporary sources that recorded it in detail.

Putting a blinker and a blindfold doesn't mean those sources no longer exist.


----------



## Night_Raven

> It was the Indian Army people who raped a lot of the Bangladeshi Women's. But many of course blamed the Muslim Pakistani Army.
> 
> 1. Indian Army Men used to change the Pak Army Uniforms and put it on there bodies to make Bengalis fool in there eyes they knew who they where. But in the Bengali eyes they where Pakistani Muslims.
> 
> 2. Many Bengalis came in that trick of the Indian Policy.
> 
> 3. Bangladeshis never had a significant proof of that Yahya Khan ever said to kill ''threee million bengalis'' the only truth is that there are some fake links on internet sites which are mostly based against Pakistani Army! And there some books where they say three million Bengalis where Genocied and a lot of raped to. But the Americans are confused wether it's 1 or 3 million who got raped by Indian Army.



What the hell are you smoking ? 

The ground war took place between 3rd Dec - 16 Dec : 1-3 million raped by IA in 13 days ? 

Get a hold on history and dont try to distort it using your imagination ...


----------



## LaBong

Kaniska said:


> @Abir...there is no point in arguing BD friends...as i always say.....it is easy to put a point and make a genuine argument with Pakistani friends rather than BD guys....So basically with this post.....what is the intent that BD guys are trying to potry???..
> 
> @BD friends....let us be clear...what are u trying to prove? Indian is a bad off guy in this sub continent????Of course man..there is no one saint in the world of World diplomacy....Do you guys thinking that Indira Gandhi was Mother Teresa that she dont have any bussiness other than helping out the blood brother BD to help get independence????? Come on....dude...India want to teach a lession to Pakistan for so it helped any one who is against Paksiatn..thts pretty simple......But problem is you BD guys are pretty confused minded people.....what is your intent of pushing ahead that India was invloved in genocide?..This is a fact that without India help BD will be struggling under Pakistan army like u r struggling at that time 1971...So what is ur opinion about it??
> 
> Of course i know..BD might be thinking that it is better to be under Pakistani ruler than o be independent....if this is the case it is not too late......



I'm not arguing with BD members about 1971 which I seldom do. My post was in reply to Pakistani members whom I find easier to reason with.


----------



## Tameem

Al-zakir said:


> Bangladeshi used to hate Pakistanis right after the separation however scenario is almost reverse after 40 years. Truth can not not be hidden for eternity. We know who was and is our enemy. Right now Bangladesh biggest enemy is Awami league. Pakistanis are welcome to help us to eliminate the scums once for all. This will be your ultimate revenge for 71.


 
Dear Zakir Bhai...While i truly appreicate your ideals in this forum but here i must point out differnces to your opinion described above;

AL is not the biggest enemy of Bangladesh but "Bengali Nationalism" is, U cannot eliminate AL without eliminating it first bcz it thrives on the popular sentiments of the people at large. Can you gauranteed me that from now onwards mojority of Bengladeshis (including BNP caders) would now calling themselves Muslim first instead of Bengali. If not than you cannot eliminate Awami Leage not in a thousand years. 

That Bengali Muslims mindsets first have to change in order to unite all the Muslims of the subcontinent and i don't see any possibility of it in near future. This is the first pre-requisits gesture we Pakistanis want from an average Bengali Muslims unless and untill that happened........., Thanks but no Thanks, we Pakistanis have enough in our plates at the moment.... we cannot be fool around once again so easily!!


----------



## monitor

ice_man said:


> leave history of 1971 it was a sad event but what indians are doing in kashmir today when will they be held accountable for that??? why the bias in international world in favour if india?



This is hypocrisy by the Western powers . they are playing double standard when it come to the interest of Muslim country / people . they are blind about the atrocity in Kashmir Chechnya Palestine but had help the south Sudan or east Timur independent.


----------



## monitor

Kaniska said:


> @Abir...there is no point in arguing BD friends...as i always say.....it is easy to put a point and make a genuine argument with Pakistani friends rather than BD guys....So basically with this post.....what is the intent that BD guys are trying to potry???..
> 
> @BD friends....let us be clear...what are u trying to prove? Indian is a bad off guy in this sub continent????Of course man..there is no one saint in the world of World diplomacy...._*Do you guys thinking that Indira Gandhi was Mother Teresa that she dont have any bussiness other than helping out the blood brother BD to help get independence????? Come on....dude...India want to teach a lession to Pakistan for so it helped any one who is against Paksiatn..thts pretty simple..*_....But problem is you BD guys are pretty confused minded people.....what is your intent of pushing ahead that India was invloved in genocide?..This is a fact that without India help BD will be struggling under Pakistan army like u r struggling at that time 1971...So what is ur opinion about it??
> 
> Of course i know..BD might be thinking that it is better to be under Pakistani ruler than o be independent....if this is the case it is not too late......



Thanks for admitting the real reason from Indian member .

We were majority in Pakistan so nothing to ruled by them rather we should be the ruler of Pakistan now . Actually we give up Pakistan due to overwhelming propaganda that we are the only oppress people of pakistan in fact most of the resources were enjoyed by a very small portion of ruling class thats what the division and created among majority east Pakistani Bengali people.


----------



## Xeric

The illegal immigrants (10 million of them who formed the so called basis for an (armed) indian intervention in East Pakistan) were sorted out into different categories like Intelligence operators and Guerrilla fighters etc. Members of the East Pakistan para-military forces who had deserted their posts were trained separately to carryout subversion inside East Pakistan. The officers and men of the East Bengal Regiment and East Pakistan Rifles formed the core of the Mukti Fauj, which later changed its name to *Mukti Bahini on April 11, 1971.*

The so-called freedom fighters were grouped into regular units of *500 each*. They were, known as *Swadhin Bengali Regiments (SBR)*. *Two brigades*, each of 3,000 persons, were raised at *Tura* by the indians. A *womens wing* of the Mukti Bahini was also created.

The Indian armed forces were given the full responsibility to turn the Mukti Bahini into some shape whereby they could assist the Indian Army during their invasion of East Pakistan. A control headquarters was established under the overall supervision of *Indian Eastern Command and three sector headquarters were also formed*, one each at *Agartala*, *Cooch Behar* and *Balurghat*. Their task was to raise Mukti Bahini companies and to plan and coordinate the activities of the guerrillas.

*Brigadier Shah Beg and Brigadier Sant Singh, both of the Indian Army*, were directed to organize the Mukti Bahini. The former operated from Agartala while the latter established contact with Tiger Siddiqui a Bengali rebel officer at Tura, Mymensingh. *Later other senior Indian Army officers were each allotted different sectors.*

These were under the command of *Colonel (later Major General) MAG Osmani*. *Lawrence Lifshultz, a well known American journalist*, describes their living style as *carpeted tents, flowing whisky and surrounded by batmen.* This group was based inside India and felt no qualms in accepting the Indian military intervention.

In addition to the Mukti Bahini a number of other resistance forces were formed by zealous patriots. The largest of which was the Mujib Bahini which was an elite force and according to Major General KM Safiullah, Mujib Bahini was drunk with political indoctrination. It consisted of 20,000 devoted Mujibites committed to carrying out his instructions to the hilt. The force was split into the eastern sector (Sheikh Moin and Sheikh Kamal, both sons of Sheikh Mujib-ur-Rahman) northern sector (Rafiq) northwestern sector (Sirajul Islam) and the western sector (Tofail Ahmad). *The leadership of Mujibites was trained at the Indian Military Academy, Dehra Dun. The idea of raising such a force which the Indians hoped would be pro-India in its ideological concepts was the brain child of Major General Oben a veteran guerrilla expert of the Indian Army.*

S Force was created by Major Safiullah (later to become Major General Safiullah and the first Chief of Army Staff of the Bangladesh Army). It consisted of 1, 2 and 11 East Bengal Regiments, a total strength of 11,200 men. Safiullah who, by September, 1971, had promoted himself to the rank of a brigadier commanded this adhoc brigade. *Both of his staff officers were from the Indian army. His brigade major was Major Gulati a gunner officer from the Indian artillery and the deputy quarter master general (DQ) was Major DR Nijrawan. It is interesting to note that the Indians were openly providing their own officers to operate within East Pakistan even before November 21.*

*A naval wing of the Mukti Bahini was also put in place.* They were trained in underwater operations and by August 1971 three hundred rebels were sent to* Cochin *for under water training. Another 300 frogmen were trained at *Plassey in the river Bhagirathi (West Bengal). *They sank ships, destroyed coasters and oil tankers, took over barges, boats and launches. The strength of the Mukti Bahini and its sister organizations continued to rise. By the end of June the rebels were estimated to number 30,000. By November, the figure rose to 70,000 and when the all out war started it had reached around 100,000.

It is funny to note that *The resistance needed planning, weapons training and leadership and only India could provide them, says Brigadier Jagdev Singh* - *Tragedy of Errors by Mitinuddin, page -230.* 

While the organization of the rebels and volunteers had commenced in April, their proper training by the Indian Army began in May. A total strength of 70,000 Bengali dissidents excluding the police, was available to the Indians. Out of this force, it did not take them long to organize eight equipped and fully trained Mukti Bahini battalions. *Six training centres were established in India, each commanded by an Indian brigadier. The six sectors, as they were called, were:-*







These training sectors provided all the weapons and military equipment needed for training and equipping the Mukti Bahini. Each sector had a number of training camps under it. *Over 83 training camps were established (according to some, there were 150 training camps) on Indian soil all along East Pakistan, barely a few kilometers from the border. First two days were spent in documentation followed by three weeks of intense training.*

An Indian major general was made in-charge of the training of Mukti Bahini. The rebels were reformed into sub-units, units and formations. Between 600-800 officers of the Mukti Bahini were trained at regular Indian Army institutions including the prestigious Indian Military Academy at Dehra Dun. Indian Army engineers trained them in the handling of mines and explosives. They were also given training in the use of mortars, machine guns and PRC-25 wireless sets supplied to them by the Indian Army. Every six weeks 2,000 trained guerrillas were turned out for operational purposes. Over 5,000 men were trained at these camps in three months. About 600 rebels received under water training at Cochin and Plassey (West Bengal).

*By October, 1971 *the Mukti Bahini had carried out extensive explosions in private and public places. They attacked government offices and godowns, damaged bridges and railway lines, disrupted electric supply lines, robbed banks and killed innocent men, women and children whom they suspected of collaborating with the government. As the date for the Indian attack came near, the rebellious units of the EBR along with Indian Army personnel, tried to capture areas of strategic importance. *In this they were supported not only by tanks and artillery but they received the support of the Indian Air Force as well. Belonia salient in the East was attacked on 8/ 9 November, Bhurigram in the north on night 13/ 14 November. These were preliminary operations carried out at the battalion level, even before the all out attack by the Indian armed forces on East Pakistan which began on November 21. The casualties were evacuated to Indian medical centres where they were given medical treatment and the sick and wounded were looked after.*

Also, interestingly an aspect of the Mukti Bahinis fighting qualities was depicted by an Indian writer. He mentions that the rebels were mortally afraid of the *Pathans*. Indian army officers were often asked by some of the chicken-hearted mutineers, _Pathan marya hai ye nahin _(Has the Pathan been killed or is he still alive). _Agar mara nahin to agay nahin jaaoon ga_ (If he has not been killed we will not move forward).

*General Aurora while commenting on the performance of the Mukti Bahini* said that the Bengalis had paranoia from the Punjabi Musalman.* They would not get anywhere close enough to them. They only sent small chokras (boys) to gain information said Aurora.*

The main contribution of the Mukti Bahini was in giving the latest information about Pakistan Army locations and strength, finding out gaps in the minefields and the current state of communications. It was the Mukti Bahini who informed the Indians that the Pakistani troops had retreated from one place to another. This allowed the Indians to advance into Jessore with impunity.* We had the Mukti Bahini on our side. It was due to them that the Pakistan Army got disorganised and isolated, said General Aurora.*


Nevertheless, during this period, Mrs Indira Gandhi, kept on insisting that her government was only providing humanitarian assistance to the refugees. She did not allow western observers to go and study the situation along the Indo-East Pakistan border for fear of their coming to know about the presence of the training camps established by the Indians to train the Mukti Bahini. *Although Morarji Desai, a former prime minister of India, did admit that not only did the Indian Army trained the Mukti Bahini, the Indian soldiers disguised as Mukti Bahini had been fighting the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan from April to December 71.*

In short, the indian involvement into internal affairs of Pakistan had started long before December 1971, and when your friends start collaborating with your enemies, they are no longer your friends, however, notwithstanding the fact that use of forces against your 'own people' is never acceptable nor encouraged, a military operation against the likes of Mukhti Bahini was ineveitable.

Sources:

Singh, Lachhman (Major General). Indian Sword Strikes in East Pakistan. New Delhi: Vikas Publishing House Private Limited, 1979.

Singh, Lachhman (Major General). Victory in Bangladesh. Dehra Dun: Natraj Publishers, 1981.

Singh, Sukhwant (Major General). Indias Wars Since Independence: The Liberation of Bangladesh. Volume 1. New Delhi: Lancer Publishers, 1980.

Singh, Jaswant & Bhatia S.P (Major General). Conflict and Diplomacy: US and the Birth of Bangladesh, Pakistan Divides. New Delhi: Rupa Cooperate, 2008.

Rao, K.V. Krishna (General). Prepare or Perish. New Delhi: Lancer Publishers, 1991.

Matinuddin, Kamal (Lieutenant General). Tragedy of Errors: East Pakistan Crsis 1968-1971. Lahore: Wajidalis Private Limited, 1994.

Jackson, Robert. South Asian Crisis: India-Pakistan-Bangladesh. International Institute for Strategic Studies, USA: Praeger, 1975.

Jacob, J.F.R (Lieutenant General). Surrender at Dacca: Birth of Nation. New Delhi: Manohar Publishers, 1997.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## toxic_pus

Xeric said:


> The illegal immigrants (10 million of them who formed the so called basis for an (armed) indian intervention in East Pakistan)....<snip>


And the point is what, exactly. You do realise, don't you, that Indian's involvement in 1971 is not exactly a secret.

BTW, The Bangladesh Govt-in-exile was officially formed on 17th March, 1971 with MAG Osmani as commander of Mukti Bahini. That was when the Mukti Bahinis officially came into existence. Previously, anybody who rebelled against Pakistan govt was called _Mukti Joddha_, Bengali for Freedom Fighter. It didn't symbolise or represent any organization in a manner the term 'Muki Bahini' came to do later on.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

First, let me point out where the ICJ (International Commission of Jurists, not the International Court of Justice) makes the same argument as some of us have, regarding the casualty count in East Pakistan:



toxic_pus said:


> ... *We find it quite impossible to assess the total numbers, and we cannot place great confidence in the various estimates which have been made from time to time. However, it appears to be indubitable that the killed are to be numbered in tens of thousands and probably in hundreds of thousands.* But this in itself is not sufficient to establish that the intent was to kill them simply because they belonged to the Bengali people as such ...





> This does not mean, of course, that particular acts may not have constituted genocide against part of the Bengali people. *In any case where large numbers were massacred and it can be shown that on the particular occasion the intent was to kill Bengalis indiscriminately as such, then a crime of genocide would be established. There would seem to be a prima facie case to show that this was the intention on some occasions, as for example during the indiscriminate killing of civilians in the poorer quarters of Dacca during the 'crack-down'.*'[/I][/INDENT]


This argument applies just as well against the Bengali rebels who massacred men, women and children of non-Bengali origin - and the accounts of that from various historians have also been posted on this thread.

But the point repeatedly made by us is not that atrocities did not occur, they did, but that the numbers killed were nowhere along the lines typically claimed and that the atrocities were committed by both sides - this was a civil war after all.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> And the point is what, exactly. You do realise, don't you, that Indian's involvement in 1971 is not exactly a secret.



The point is, as already pointed out on several threads in the months past, that covert Indian support for the East Pakistan rebels/terrorists started in April of 1971, long before any 'ten million refugees' entered India and supposedly 'forced India to intervene in East Pakistan'. 

The point is that Indian support for the East Pakistan rebels/terrorists prolonged and escalated the conflict, and therefore played a part in the subsequent violence on both sides and the refugee exodus.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Xeric

^^ so i was able to wake you up from your lamber, eh?

The indian involvement into Pakistan's internal afairs is not a secret, indeed, but then some of your likes tends to blame Pakistan for the initiation of hostilities on 3 Dec 71, *though it was india that broke the hostilities well before that by training, arming and grooming the Bengalis.* Also, the point that india got involved into East Pakistan AFTER 3 Dec 71 maynot be a secret but india's state terrorism *before December (since Jan 1971) * remains a closely gaurded secret by some of your likes.

So, when Mr. Nur-ul-Qader, former deputy commissioner of Pabna, a small town in the north-west of East Pakistan, after March 25, went to the border village of Chuadanga, he was joined by Major Usman of the East Pakistan Rifles who brought with him a company of the EPR with their weapons. On April 8, Qader claims that he was met by *Lieutenant Colonel Banerjee of the Indian Army.* Also an Anglo-Indian DC, from the Indian town of Krishannagar, helped Qader to get in touch with Mr Tajuddin Ahmad who had escaped to Calcutta. Later Qader asked the *commandant of the Indian Border Security Force, Lieutenant Colonel Rustamjee and the local Indian Sector commander Golak Mojumdar* to request Tajuddin and other Bengali leaders including Colonel Osmani to come to Chuadanga and declare the establishment of the independent republic of Bangladesh and the formation of the Mukti Bahini. On April 10, Syed Nazr-ul-Islam, so-called acting president of Bangladesh, had broadcast the proclamation of the independence of Bangladesh from Mujibnagar, which was located at 8 Theater Road in Calcutta, formerly the offices of the deputy high commission for Pakistan.

The visit of Tajuddin to Chuadanga was arranged by the Indians and at 1030 hours on April 17, 1971 Tajuddin is reported to have come to Budhonathtola, just 4 kilometres, from the border near the western village of Mehrpur (a place where Lord Clive had taken over Bengal from the local Muslim chieftain). Colonel Osmani was also present there. A small contingent of the self styled Mukti Bahini presented a guard of honour. A &#8216;war council&#8217; was formed. Chairman of the war council was Colonel MAG Osmani. Other members of the council were Major Safiullah, Zia-ur-Rahman, Khalid Musharraf, Nur-ul-Aslam and Rafiq-ul-Islam. Colonel Muhammad Ata-ul-Ghani Osmani was appointed the Commander-in-Chief of the &#8216;Liberation Army&#8217; (Mukti Bahini) on 17 April, 1971 at Mujibnagar, the provisional capital of the Bangladesh Government in India.

So, it is not at all surprising that when presentated with facts, some of your likes scum and accept the realities 

BTW, the aim was not to present the obvious facts, but to show the other side of the story and to estalish that a friend of your enemy is your enemy!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Xeric

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> First, let me point out where the ICJ (International Commission of Jurists, not the International Court of Justice) makes the same argument as some of us have, regarding the casualty count in East Pakistan:
> 
> This argument applies just as well against the Bengali rebels who massacred men, women and children of non-Bengali origin - and the accounts of that from various historians have also been posted on this thread.
> 
> But the point repeatedly made by us is not that atrocities did not occur, they did, but that the numbers killed were nowhere along the lines typically claimed and that the atrocities were committed by both sides - this was a civil war after all.



Here's the other side of the story: (again, the killings did happen, but the scale was exeggerated by many to their advantage)
_
*Dacca University*

The Dacca University was made the first target of the military action on the night between 25/ 26 March. Dacca University had several hostels called halls: Jinnah Hall was the residence of junior lecturers and all in-house-teachers, Jagannath Hall accommodated the Hindu students; *lqbal Hall was the centre piece of all political activity*, Roqaya Hall was meant for all girl students. *Jagannath Hall was barricaded. It was surrounded by barbed wire and within its perimeter Mukti Jogda (freedom fighters) received their training using dummy and service rifles.* *The university area harboured most of the armed dissidents and had become a stronghold of the rebellious students, professors and other intellectuals.*

**** ****** Regiment, part of *** Infantry Brigade, was given the task to clear the university of all rebellious elements. It was a difficult task as it involved fighting in a built up area. The battalion was, therefore, given the support of tanks and artillery in the hope that the rumbling of tanks and the presence of guns near the university would compel the students to give up their weapons and surrender. *But that was not to be*. A full scale military operation had to be launched. Machine gun fire, mortar shells and recoilless rifles had to be used. Even tanks and artillery had to come into action. *Each room of the Jagannath Hall had to be individually flushed out.* Iqbal Hall and Roqaya Hall were also fired upon and later searched for incriminating evidence. By 0400 hours, a deadly silence descended on the once humming university campus. *The official casualty in the military action in the university area that night was 66 Bengali rebels dead, 31 injured, 4 army jawans lost their lives defending the territorial integrity of Pakistan against its own citizens.* *He* accepted that it was an overreaction and over kill by the troops under his command.

Tikka Khan drove around Dacca on March 26 to check the results of the military action. On the way he saw that all Bangladesh flags had disappeared and Pakistan flags had taken their place. He was visibly relieved as the open defiance against the government had at least temporarily subsided. After three days of military action in Dacca and its surrounding areas all was quiet, it did not strike him that the result achieved was through fear and that no Bengali had changed his support to the Awami League. *In fact the hatred had increased.*_

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Xeric

Oa...maindaki ko bhi zukaam hogya...??

P.S. @tameem, there's never a wrong in accepting and presenting the facts, rather it strenghtens you. Here on PDF, we fight through truth, not jingiostics!


----------



## Tameem

Xeric said:


> Oa...maindaki ko bhi zukaam hogya...??
> 
> P.S. @tameem, there's never a wrong in accepting and presenting the facts, rather it strenghtens you. Here on PDF, we fight through truth, not jingiostics!


 
Facts!! not Propaganda!!! if you don't have any facts regarding the subject (Pakistani brutality - or wait, it's not...) of this thread...than just sh..-.p!!


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> First, let me point out where the ICJ (International Commission of Jurists, not the International Court of Justice) makes the same argument as some of us have, regarding the casualty count in East Pakistan:


So?

My response was very specific and was meant to point out the blatant lie that PA didn't commit genocide. They did, in every sense of the legal definition and worse. In fact, you have confirmed once again what Gregory H. Stanton had pointed out, _'DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide.'_

And genocide has nothing to do with numbers, neither did I claim any number. Now quit raising strawman. Then again, it is your noted tactic to divert any debate on PA's cold blooded genocide into a debate on numbers. So I'm not surprised.



> This argument applies just as well against the Bengali rebels who massacred men, women and children of non-Bengali origin - and the accounts of that from various historians have also been posted on this thread.


There is no moral equivalency between the State sponsored, sanctioned and encouraged violence (read extermination) and the resistance by the potential victims, whether violent or not, against such State terrorism. Let me quote ICJ (Commission of Jurists) once again:


_'They_ [Awami League] _were, however, *justified* under domestic law *in using force* to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election '_​



> But the point repeatedly made by us is not that atrocities did not occur, they did, but that the numbers killed were nowhere along the lines typically claimed and that the atrocities were committed by both sides - this was a civil war after all.


You still don't get it, do you? Numbers really really really don't matter. '3,000,000' or '300,000' don't make a wee bit difference in the minds of sane people. Although, I can well understand, that it does make a difference in the minds of genocide deniers.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The point is, as already pointed out on several threads in the months past, that covert Indian support for the East Pakistan rebels/terrorists started in April of 1971, long before any 'ten million refugees' entered India and supposedly 'forced India to intervene in East Pakistan'.


The 10,000,000 figure is an approximate cumulative figure for the refugees that poured into India right till the official war. And Indian 'intervention' refers to the actual war. Nobody, who has read up on the events of 1971, claim that India created Mukti Bahini _after_ 10 million refugees had entered India.

Bangladesh Govt-in-Exile was declared on 10th April and officially established 7 days later. Whats there to hide the 'covert' support here. 



> The point is that Indian support for the East Pakistan rebels/terrorists prolonged and escalated the conflict, and therefore played a part in the subsequent violence on both sides and the refugee exodus.


Yes, its all India's fault. The fact that the State of Pakistan was orchestrating a blood bath had absolutely nothing to do with it. Point taken.

I must admit that I like this Pakistani psychology - blame everyone else and his grandmother, for all their own fvck ups.

Btw, Xeric's post didn't really make that point. It appears he just collected some text and posted it here thinking he is revealing the greatest secret on Earth. It is only you who have latched on to his meaningless post to continue with your disinformation campaign.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Dalai Lama

No Indian will deny that we helped the Mukti Bahini and did everything in our power to capitalise on the conflict. After-all, you were our mortal enemies. But saying that it was solely India's fault that the violence/genocide occurred makes no sense whatsoever.

If West Pakistan hadn't thought of the Eastern Pakistanis as a "lesser" race, there would have been no conflict for India to exploit in the first place.


----------



## Al-zakir

Tameem said:


> AL is not the biggest enemy of Bangladesh but "Bengali Nationalism" is, U cannot eliminate AL without eliminating it first bcz it thrives on the popular sentiments of the people at large.



"Bengali nationalism" and Awamism is actually same thing. It's only Awami league that preach Bengali nationalism over Islam. Bengali natinalist comprise of about 30% bd population including minorites. Althugh their number is small however they have the back up of Bharat. If BNP could have come back to power in 2008, we would have destroy Awami leauge but unfortuante for us is that it has regain power with the help of Bharti and ghaddar Gen. Moeen u Ahmed.




> Can you gauranteed me that from now onwards majority of Bangladeshis (including BNP caders) would now calling themselves Muslim first instead of Bengali. If not than you cannot eliminate Awami Leage not in a thousand years.



As a matter of fact we are. Majority Bangladeshi consider themselves Muslim first and Bangladeshi second. BNP's "Bangladeshi nationalism" is actually derived from Pakistani nationalism however I agree that it's may not be possible to eliminate Awami league so long we have country called Bharat. 



> That Bengali Muslims mindsets first have to change in order to unite all the Muslims of the subcontinent and i don't see any possibility of it in near future. This is the first pre-requisits gesture we Pakistanis want from an average Bengali Muslims unless and untill that happened........., Thanks but no Thanks, we Pakistanis have enough in our plates at the moment.... we cannot be fool around once again so easily!!



I understand your sentiment and I do not blame you. I would do samething if I was you. It's our problem so therefore we have to fight for our survival.


----------



## saleen_s7

Al-zakir said:


> "Bengali nationalism" and Awamism is actually same thing. It's only Awami league that preach Bengali nationalism over Islam. Bengali natinalist comprise of about 30% bd population including minorites. Althugh their number is small however they have the back up of Bharat. If BNP could have come back to power in 2008, we would have destroy Awami leauge but unfortuante for us is that it has regain power with the help of Bharti and ghaddar Gen. Moeen u Ahmed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact we are. *Majority Bangladeshi consider themselves Muslim first and Bangladeshi second. *BNP's "Bangladeshi nationalism" is actually derived from Pakistani nationalism however I agree that it's may not be possible to eliminate Awami league so long we have country called Bharat.


 The logic that we should be Muslims first and bengalis second never made sense to me. We are both at the same time and the differentiating is mainly for political purposes. Even the muslims in India consider themselves both at the same time and refuse to prioritise one over the other.
And again, I agree with your post that bengali nationalism is a failed concept in Bangladesh, which is why Bangladeshi nationalism was more embraced when introduced because it gave us a sovereign identity. Although I doubt, most of the population would embrace the Pakistani nationalism in here.


----------



## toxic_pus

Here is one example of PA run extermination camp at Hariharpara, near Dhaka. The report is by Lewis M. Simons for Washington Post and appeared on 10th Jan, 1972, shortly after the end of the war. 

(Click on the images to enlarge)










PS: I didn't scan the images. I had downloaded a pdf file quite sometime ago and I have completely forgotten the original source. So the credit goes to the individual who had taken pains to scan this report.

PPS: I'll be uploading some more images as and when needed.

PPPS: The thread will be locked in 10...9...8...7...


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> Here is one example of PA run extermination camp at Hariharpara, near Dhaka. The report is by Lewis M. Simons for Washington Post and appeared on 10th Jan, 1972, shortly after the end of the war.
> 
> (Click on the images to enlarge)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I didn't scan the images. I had downloaded a pdf file quite sometime ago and I have completely forgotten the original source. So the credit goes to the individual who had taken pains to scan this report.
> 
> PPS: I'll be uploading some more images as and when needed.
> 
> PPPS: The thread will be locked in 10...9...8...7...


That account has already been debunked in past posts - just because the account appeared in the WaPo does not change the fact that it is anecdotal and has no actual evidence to support either the numbers killed or massacres claimed.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> So?


So your own quoted report, as I 'very specifically pointed out' argues against the absurd claims of 'millions killed', and puts the death toll in the tens of thousands or at most hundreds of thousands'.



> My response was very specific and was meant to point out the blatant lie that PA didn't commit genocide. They did, in every sense of the legal definition and worse. In fact, you have confirmed once again what Gregory H. Stanton had pointed out, _'DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide.'_


The only part of the report that alleges genocide is in terms of any targeting of the East Pakistan Hindu community - that is it. So there was no genocide of Bengalis, let's get that clear, 'your report' claims as much.

So the only thing left to argue in terms of whether genocide occurred is with respect to the East Pakistani Hindu community being targeted, correct?

But since the report itself argues in the beginning that it is almost impossible to verify the casualty numbers, how can it then make a claim with any certitude regarding any alleged Pakistani 'genocide of Hindus in East Pakistan'? I would imagine such an allegation could, in the absence of verifiable casualty counts, per the ICJ itself, only be made if there is credible evidence of a high level Pakistani policy of exterminating the East Pakistani Hindus. Is there?



> And genocide has nothing to do with numbers, neither did I claim any number. Now quit raising strawman. Then again, it is your noted tactic to divert any debate on PA's cold blooded genocide into a debate on numbers. So I'm not surprised.


It has nothing to do with numbers, indeed, it has everything to do with an 'official plan and actions to eliminate in part, or whole, an entire religious community', East Pakistani Hindus, in this case at least. 

But the numbers do have a relevance in the context of the thread, and most discussions on the events in 1971. Many Indians will usually throw in canards about 'PA killed millions in 1971', so when your own quoted report debunks this oft repeated historical lie, the lie must be highlighted. There is nothing 'strawmannish' about this, I was rather specific in making that particular argument separately.


> There is no moral equivalency between the State sponsored, sanctioned and encouraged violence (read extermination) and the resistance by the potential victims, whether violent or not, against such State terrorism. Let me quote ICJ (Commission of Jurists) once again:
> 
> _'They_ [Awami League] _were, however, *justified* under domestic law *in using force* to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election '_​


There is no justification for the rebel/terrorist massacres of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of non-Bengali innocent men, women and children (as pointed out in the first few pages of this thread). 'Domestic law' does not authorize those kinds of massacres of innocents. That you would even try and justify those atrocities by Indian supported Bengali rebels/terrorists shows us the depths of hatred and intellectual dishonesty you have sunk to.

Here is a past post by Bilal Haider:



bilalhaider said:


> No need for an apology, especially as the Mukti Bahini were responsible for killing between 500,000-1 million Biharis:
> 
> Blood and Tears and the massacre of Non-Bengalis by Mukti Bahani|Dacca Times
> 
> The sheaves of eye-witness accounts, documented in this book, prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the massacre of West Pakistanis, Biharis and other non-Bengalis in East Pakistan had begun long before the Pakistan Army took punitive action against the rebels late in the night of March 25, 1971. It is also crystal clear that the Awami League&#8217;s terror machine was the initiator and executor of the genocide against the non-Bengalis which exterminated at least half a million of them in less than two months of horror and trauma. Many witnesses have opined that the federal Government acted a bit too late against the insurgents. The initial success of the federal military action is proved by the fact that in barely 30 days, the Pakistan Army, with a combat strength of 38,717 officers and men in East Pakistan, had squelched the Awami League&#8217;s March-April, 1971, rebellion all over the province.
> 
> Panchabibi, Jessore: The Mukti Bhani massacres of Biharis|Today's Views
> 
> Actually Mukti Bahini and Bengal Regiment personnel raped the Bihari and west Pakistani women killed about 800,000/ to 1,000,000/ innocent Biharis and West Pakistanis in East Pakistan in 1971. After the 16th of December 1971 Bangladeshis showed the dead bodies and graves of these innocent Biharis and Pakistanis as Bengali people killed by the Pakistan army.
> Mukti Bahini killed 1 million Biharis:
> 
> Mukti Bahani massacres of Biharis in Panchabibi, Jessore « Bogra « Rajshahi « Sonar Bangla « Bangladesh Patriot
> 
> I love the Bangladeshi people today, so I really hope you get past this ugly chapter in our history. No need for apologies from either side. Pakistan feels the pain of 1971 everyday, but in the end you got what you want. Now let's move past this and live as brothers. Peace.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That account has already been debunked in past posts - just because the account appeared in the WaPo does not change the fact that it is anecdotal and has no actual evidence to support either the numbers killed or massacres claimed.


As I said, the numbers matter little to establish the fact of intent. That PA ran an extermination camp at Hariharpara is now a fact. There were others, but we will leave it at that. As with the numbers, well, it is hard to count the corpeses which have been disposed off by dumping into the river.

And, every eye witness is anecdotal, in case you didn't know earlier.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> The 10,000,000 figure is an approximate cumulative figure for the refugees that poured into India right till the official war.


Oh, you mean yet more unsubstantiated numbers the Indians and other pulled out of their collective rear ends ...



> And Indian 'intervention' refers to the actual war. Nobody, who has read up on the events of 1971, claim that India created Mukti Bahini _after_ 10 million refugees had entered India.


You may choose to cherry pick how you wish to define 'Indian intervention', but any rational individual would agree that India's covert support for rebels/terrorists in April 1971 amounts to 'intervention', and a hostile act against sovereign state. Glad to see you have finally stopped denying this.



> Bangladesh Govt-in-Exile was declared on 10th April and officially established 7 days later. Whats there to hide the 'covert' support here.


I don't really care about 'political support', it is the military support, that enabled the East Pakistani rebels/terrorists to carry out their blood bath against innocent non-Bengali residents, and therefore prolonged the violence and poured fuel on it, that is the issue and is what you wish to 'hide'.



> Yes, its all India's fault. The fact that the State of Pakistan was orchestrating a blood bath had absolutely nothing to do with it. Point taken.


Operation Searchlight, as has been already argued, came about after weeks of violence by the rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan. India chose to pour even more fuel on the fire.



> I must admit that I like this Pakistani psychology - blame everyone else and his grandmother, for all their own fvck ups.


You can keep avoiding the issue and keep distorting history instead ...


> Btw, Xeric's post didn't really make that point. It appears he just collected some text and posted it here thinking he is revealing the greatest secret on Earth. It is only you who have latched on to his meaningless post to continue with your disinformation campaign.


Well, that is for him to say to me, unless you are now 'The Great Mahashirijabalmanagalbangal Mind reader' as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

toxic_pus said:


> As I said, the numbers matter little to establish the fact of intent. That PA ran an extermination camp at Hariharpara is now a fact. There were others, but we will leave it at that. As with the numbers, well, it is hard to count the corpeses which have been disposed off by dumping into the river.
> 
> And, every eye witness is anecdotal, in case you didn't know earlier.



Eyewitness accounts can be properly recorded and investigated and corroborated from other accounts for inconsistencies/consistencies, along with using previous data from various government records (tax, land, census, medical, etc.) and through compiling information from people with missing relatives and checking that against the refugee population in neighboring countries.

There are ways to corroborate these accounts to some degree, but it appears people just want to throw around fanciful accusations instead to malign and denigrate the PA and Pakistan.


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So your own quoted report, as I 'very specifically pointed out' argues against the absurd claims of 'millions killed', and puts the death toll in the tens of thousands or at most hundreds of thousands'.


That was not my argument.




> The only part of the report that alleges genocide is in terms of any targeting of the East Pakistan Hindu community - that is it. So there was no genocide of Bengalis, let's get that clear, 'your report' claims as much.


But genocide, all the same. It is irrelevant how the victims are identified - by their ethnicity or their religion. A group of innocent people (Hindus) were killed by another group (the State of Pakistan), systematically, because of being something that the State despised. That is all that matters.



> So the only thing left to argue in terms of whether genocide occurred is with respect to the East Pakistani Hindu community being targeted, correct?


Legally, yes. Morally, no.



> But since the report itself argues in the beginning that it is almost impossible to verify the casualty numbers, how can it then make a claim with any certitude regarding any alleged Pakistani 'genocide of Hindus in East Pakistan'? I would imagine such an allegation could, in the absence of verifiable casualty counts, per the ICJ itself, only be made if there is credible evidence of a high level Pakistani policy of exterminating the East Pakistani Hindus. Is there?


There is, in the manner the Hindus were identified and executed. And once again, numbers don't matter in genocide. Intent matters. There are 7 stages of genocide. (Source)

1. Classification, 2. Symbolization, 3. Dehumanization, 4. Organization, 5. Polarization, 6. Preparation and 7. Extermination. There is 8th stage, it is called Denial, which is what you are in.

Note, how numbers are not a factor.



> It has nothing to do with numbers, indeed, it has everything to do with an 'official plan and actions to eliminate in part, or whole, an entire religious community', East Pakistani Hindus, in this case at least.
> 
> But the numbers do have a relevance in the context of the thread, and most discussions on the events in 1971. Many Indians will usually throw in canards about 'PA killed millions in 1971', so when your own quoted report debunks this oft repeated historical lie, the lie must be highlighted. There is nothing 'strawmannish' about this, I was rather specific in making that particular argument separately.


Numbers have no relevance to the post _I_ made. 



> There is no justification for the rebel/terrorist massacres of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of non-Bengali innocent men, women and children (as pointed out in the first few pages of this thread). 'Domestic law' does not authorize those kinds of massacres of innocents. That you would even try and justify those atrocities by Indian supported Bengali rebels/terrorists shows us the depths of hatred and intellectual dishonesty you have sunk to.


Those are the words of ICJ, not mine. And I will again reiterate, the public in general has every right, whether sanctioned by domestic or international law or not, to resist violently the extermination campaign run by the very State that is supposed to protect them. There is no intellectual dishonesty here. The intellectual dishonesty is in your attempt to try and draw a moral equivalency between the two.



> Here is a past post by Bilal Haider:


None of these would have had happened if the State of Pakistan chose to act in a manner a modern State is expected to act. The onus is on the State of Pakistan and those who ran it, because the first cause lies with them, not with the Bengalis.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Oh, you mean yet more unsubstantiated numbers the Indians and other pulled out of their collective rear ends ...


Actually India kept a record of the refugees for an extended period of time. Although, I would admit that once the flow swelled into tens of thousands per day, keeping of record became impossible. Also, there were Red Cross teams as well as UN teams at these refugee camps.



> You may choose to cherry pick how you wish to define 'Indian intervention', but any rational individual would agree that India's covert support for rebels/terrorists in April 1971 amounts to 'intervention', and a hostile act against sovereign state. Glad to see you have finally stopped denying this.


In May, the recorded number of refugees were somewhere in excess of 2 million (I will post the exact number shortly)




> I don't really care about 'political support', it is the military support, that enabled the East Pakistani rebels/terrorists to carry out their blood bath against innocent non-Bengali residents, and therefore prolonged the violence and poured fuel on it, that is the issue and is what you wish to 'hide'.


Military support came _after_ the political support. Is that so hard to understand. (I will try to quote Sisson and Rose later on)




> Operation Searchlight, as has been already argued, came about after weeks of violence by the rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan. India chose to pour even more fuel on the fire.


Rubbish. There was no justification for Operation Searchlight and even the Pakistani White Paper struggled to put forward an argument. The death toll was reported to be somewhere in two figures and all were sporadic stray incidents.



> You can keep avoiding the issue and keep distorting history instead ...


Right.



> Well, that is for him to say to me, unless you are now 'The Great Mahashirijabalmanagalbangal Mind reader' as well.


Sure. Why not.


----------



## toxic_pus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Eyewitness accounts can be properly recorded and investigated and corroborated from other accounts for inconsistencies/consistencies, along with using *previous data from various government records (tax, land, census, medical, etc.*) and through compiling information from people with missing relatives and checking that against the refugee population in neighboring countries.


Neither do you have any semblance of idea about rural Bengal, and that too of 1971, nor do you understand the extend to which PA went, once the fall was certain, to leave the new emerging State of Bangladesh crippled. 

Also, the records (hilarious, I must say) were with Pakistan, and you know very well how they co-operated.



> There are ways to corroborate these accounts to some degree, but it appears people just want to throw around fanciful accusations instead to malign and denigrate the PA and Pakistan.


No there aren't. It is impossible.


----------



## saleen_s7

Operation Searchlight was because of the great bengali movement which the Bengali people has been deprived of. Mujib won the most of the seats in the parliament and rightfully, Bengalis have protested. The discrimination and the injustices we faced during that time are no "propaganda" or "made up" Indian stories, those were facts and the reasons were legitimate. Even Uncle Sam has been accused of knowing fully about the genocide and remaining quiet, and many credible historians wrote about it.


----------



## LaBong

Nice to see Pakistani member raising the same straw-man again and again and beating through it using their cliched non-sequiturs, a common tactics of all genocide deniers. It's impossible to quantify the exact number of causalities nor is it needed to gauge the depth of systematic state sponsored injustice that had been meted out to minorities in East Pakistan. 

Following is the definition of Genocide as ratified by International Criminal Court. 

_

Genocide is foremost an international crime for which individuals, no matter how high in authority, may be indicted, tried, and punished by the International Criminal Court (ICC). According to Article 6 of the ICC Statute, This crime involves, "*any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:*

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. _​


Genocide:Meaning and Definition



Following is an extract from the report by ICJ about the events of 1971. 

_
(1) During the civil war from 25 March to 3 December and during the international war from 4 to 18 December, massive violations of human rights occurred in East Pakistan. These were committed *(a) by the Pakistani army and auxiliary forces against Bengalis, and in particular against members of the Awami League, students, and Hindus, and (b) by Bengali insurgent forces and mobs against Biharis and other non-Bengalis (Part II (b)).*

(2) These violations involved the indiscriminate killing of civilians, including women and children; *the attempt to exterminate or drive out of the country a large part of the Hindu population of approximately 10 million people; the arrest, torture and killing without trial of suspects; the raping of women; the destruction of villages and towns; and the looting of property. The scale of these crimes was massive, but it is impossible to quantify them. Figures given by both sides tend to be greatly exaggerated (Part II (b))*.

(3) In addition to criminal offences under domestic law, there is a strong prima facie case that criminal offences were committed in international law, namely war crimes and crimes against humanity under the law relating to armed conflict, breaches of Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions 1949, and acts of genocide under the Genocide Convention 1949 (Part IV).

(4) Persons who have committed or were responsible for such crimes are liable to be tried under international law by an international court. If, as has been reported, the Bangladesh government are to put on trial senior Pakistani officers and civilians, they should set up an international court for the purpose with a majority of judges from neutral countries (Part IV).

(5) The martial law regime of General Yahya Khan was unconstitutional and illegal under domestic Pakistan law, but owing to its recognition by other states its validity cannot be challenged under international law (Part III).

(6) The Awami League leaders were not entitled in international law to proclaim the independence of Bangladesh in March 1971 under the principle of the right of self-determination of peoples (Part V).

*(7) They were, however, justified under domestic law in using force to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election (Part V).*

(8) The United Nations failed to use its available machinery to deal with the situation either with a view to terminating the gross violations of human rights which were occurring or to deal with the threat to international peace which they constituted (Part VI).

(9) India's supply of arms and training facilities to the insurgent forces was in breach of her duty of neutrality under international law (Part VII).

(10) India's claim that her invasion of Pakistan was justified in international law under the doctrine of self-defence and on the grounds that she was acting in support of her Bangladesh ally cannot be accepted (Part VII).

*(11) India could, however, have justified the invasion on the grounds of humanitarian intervention, in view of the failure of the United Nations to deal with the massive violations of human rights in East Pakistan which were causing a continuing and intolerable refugee burden to India (Part. VII). *_​


[Genocide/1971] The Events in East Pakistan: Conclusion

Please take note of the fact that, the report doesn't quote any exact number of causalities as a basis of calling it genocide, debunking the straw-man Pakistani members love to use to deny the heinous crime.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Gandhi G in da house

Abir said:


> Nice to see Pakistani member raising the same straw-man again and again and beating through it using their cliched non-sequiturs, a common tactics of all genocide deniers. It's impossible to quantify the exact number of causalities nor is it needed to gauge the depth of systematic state sponsored injustice that had been meted out to minorities in East Pakistan.
> 
> Following is the definition of Genocide as ratified by International Criminal Court.
> 
> _
> 
> Genocide is foremost an international crime for which individuals, no matter how high in authority, may be indicted, tried, and punished by the International Criminal Court (ICC). According to Article 6 of the ICC Statute, This crime involves, "*any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:*
> 
> (a) Killing members of the group;
> (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
> (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
> (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
> (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. _​
> 
> 
> Genocide:Meaning and Definition
> 
> 
> 
> Following is an extract from the report by ICJ about the events of 1971.
> 
> _
> (1) During the civil war from 25 March to 3 December and during the international war from 4 to 18 December, massive violations of human rights occurred in East Pakistan. These were committed *(a) by the Pakistani army and auxiliary forces against Bengalis, and in particular against members of the Awami League, students, and Hindus, and (b) by Bengali insurgent forces and mobs against Biharis and other non-Bengalis (Part II (b)).*
> 
> (2) These violations involved the indiscriminate killing of civilians, including women and children; *the attempt to exterminate or drive out of the country a large part of the Hindu population of approximately 10 million people; the arrest, torture and killing without trial of suspects; the raping of women; the destruction of villages and towns; and the looting of property. The scale of these crimes was massive, but it is impossible to quantify them. Figures given by both sides tend to be greatly exaggerated (Part II (b))*.
> 
> (3) In addition to criminal offences under domestic law, there is a strong prima facie case that criminal offences were committed in international law, namely war crimes and crimes against humanity under the law relating to armed conflict, breaches of Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions 1949, and acts of genocide under the Genocide Convention 1949 (Part IV).
> 
> (4) Persons who have committed or were responsible for such crimes are liable to be tried under international law by an international court. If, as has been reported, the Bangladesh government are to put on trial senior Pakistani officers and civilians, they should set up an international court for the purpose with a majority of judges from neutral countries (Part IV).
> 
> (5) The martial law regime of General Yahya Khan was unconstitutional and illegal under domestic Pakistan law, but owing to its recognition by other states its validity cannot be challenged under international law (Part III).
> 
> (6) The Awami League leaders were not entitled in international law to proclaim the independence of Bangladesh in March 1971 under the principle of the right of self-determination of peoples (Part V).
> 
> *(7) They were, however, justified under domestic law in using force to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election (Part V).*
> 
> (8) The United Nations failed to use its available machinery to deal with the situation either with a view to terminating the gross violations of human rights which were occurring or to deal with the threat to international peace which they constituted (Part VI).
> 
> (9) India's supply of arms and training facilities to the insurgent forces was in breach of her duty of neutrality under international law (Part VII).
> 
> (10) India's claim that her invasion of Pakistan was justified in international law under the doctrine of self-defence and on the grounds that she was acting in support of her Bangladesh ally cannot be accepted (Part VII).
> 
> *(11) India could, however, have justified the invasion on the grounds of humanitarian intervention, in view of the failure of the United Nations to deal with the massive violations of human rights in East Pakistan which were causing a continuing and intolerable refugee burden to India (Part. VII). *_​
> 
> 
> [Genocide/1971] The Events in East Pakistan: Conclusion
> 
> Please take note of the fact that, the report doesn't quote any exact number of causalities as a basis of calling it genocide, debunking the straw-man Pakistani members love to use to deny the heinous crime.



bookmark this one buddy .


----------



## Xeric

This is the usual response from the likes of pu$$is when confronted (with facts). They will leave aside the topic and start giving smartmouth (mistaking them for wisecracks) rather smartazz comments and ruin the discussion.

See, there was nothing much required to be proven when i posted at # 323 except that an indian involvement BEFORE Op Searchlight had became a norm to the indians even before when there were any refugee 'problem'. My post imply proved that. Anybody having problems with that should take it up with Gen Lachhman, Krishna and Matinuddin. And it was no surprised that when the indians were cornered they went inside their Baniyan cocoons and accepted the fact, though not many were ready to touch upon the indian involvement which started around Jan -Mar 1971. That's the true worth and 'high' morals of such members.

Anywaz, since my post had become such a pain in the azz for so many indians (not Bengalis, not Pakistanis), i think it's time that i should clarify, as the post was quite subtle for some. The post hinged upon my stance whereby when 'your friend starts collaborating with the enemy, he is no more your friend, rather he should be treated as an enemy', hence my post # 327 was concluded with:


Xeric said:


> BTW, the aim was not to present the obvious facts, but to show the other side of the story and to establish that a friend of your enemy is your enemy!


 That's to say, when the indian footprint increased over time well BEFORE 3rd of December 1971 and the Bengalis started challenging the govt's writ at the behest of indian support, matters had to be taken into one's own hands.

But then you are a fellow with the inventiveness of Albert Einstien, but with the attention span of Daffy Duck, and you couldn't pay attention, you went into convulsions and brought out something out of your rear (as usual) and subjected me to the rhetorics as if i was trying to prove something new. 

So therefore from now onwards, pay attention! Stop thinking from your behind and concentrate on what is being said; It's surprising that you expect others to believe what you yap and can carry on with your 'insignificance of numbers amounting to a genocide' but fails to grasp the essentials out of a text (a text that was collated by myself after reading the books/reports as mentioned in the source of post # 323).

But as you are the kind of man that is a blueprint for building an idiot, i will take some time out and explain what i really meant; i was kinda 'justifying' and making a base for my further discussion and at the same time debunking the indian claim of PA killing 3 millions Bengalis (though you guys have shamelessly also retracted the same when Agno gave you guys the taste of your own medicine), and therefore i tried to post the excerpts from those books basing on which one can conclude that an indian involvement into the internal affairs of Pakistan was there long before Op Searchlight was conceived as throughly proved by the following accounts:

_- The &#8216;illegal immigrants&#8217; (10 million of them who formed the so called basis for an (armed) indian intervention in East Pakistan) were sorted out into different categories like Intelligence operators and Guerrilla fighters etc.

- The Indian armed forces were given the full responsibility to turn the Mukti Bahini into some shape whereby they could assist the Indian Army during their invasion of East Pakistan. A control headquarters was established under the overall supervision of Indian Eastern Command and three sector headquarters were also formed, one each at Agartala, Cooch Behar and Balurghat

- Brigadier Shah Beg and Brigadier Sant Singh, both of the Indian Army, were directed to organize the Mukti Bahini. The former operated from Agartala while the latter established contact with &#8216;Tiger&#8217; Siddiqui a Bengali rebel officer at Tura, Mymensingh

- Six training centres were established in India, each commanded by an Indian brigadier.

- Belonia salient in the East was attacked on 8/ 9 November, Bhurigram in the north on night 13/ 14 November. These were preliminary operations carried out at the battalion level, even before the all out attack by the Indian armed forces on East Pakistan which began on November 21. _

Basing on the above facts my stance was that a military option was viable notwithstanding the fact that it was WRONG and counterproductive and therefore i made the mention of the complete excerpt in my post # 328 which included the following para:


Xeric said:


> ...........*He* accepted that it was an overreaction and over kill by the troops under his command.
> 
> Tikka Khan drove around Dacca on March 26 to check the results of the military action. On the way he saw that all Bangladesh flags had disappeared and Pakistan flags had taken their place. He was visibly relieved as the open defiance against the government had at least temporarily subsided. After three days of military action in Dacca and its surrounding areas all was quiet, it did not strike him that the result achieved was through fear and that no Bengali had changed his support to the Awami League. *In fact the hatred had increased.*[/I]



So in short my input on this thread was to show;

- the indian involvement into Pakistani internal affairs long before daggers were drawn in Dec 1971 (this interference was indeed the causes beli for the War), 

- to 'justify' use of force against ONLY those Bengalis who were no more your friends as 'they became friends of your enemy' and at the same time highlight the mistakes and errors by the GoP in general and PA in particular that lead to alienation of Bengalis and resulted in killings of armed and unarmed Bengalis (see my next post in this regards).

- and to debunk the exaggerated, unconfirmed and lame claims that 3 million Bengalis perished (


Xeric said:


> Here's the other side of the story: (again, the killings did happen, but the scale was exaggerated by many to their advantage)
> _
> *Dacca University*
> 
> The Dacca University was made the first target of the military action on the night between 25/ 26 March. Dacca University had several hostels called halls: Jinnah Hall was the residence of junior lecturers and all in-house-teachers, Jagannath Hall accommodated the Hindu students; *lqbal Hall was the centre piece of all political activity*, Roqaya Hall was meant for all girl students. *Jagannath Hall was barricaded. It was surrounded by barbed wire and within its perimeter &#8216;Mukti Jogda&#8217; (freedom fighters) received their training using dummy and service rifles.* *The university area harboured most of the armed dissidents and had become a stronghold of the rebellious students, professors and other intellectuals........
> 
> .......The official casualty in the military action in the university area that night was 66 Bengali rebels dead, 31 injured (as opposed to more than 400 dead as claimed by many here), 4 army jawans lost their lives defending the territorial integrity of Pakistan against its own citizens.*_


_*)

But then, whilst everybody has the right to be dumb, and as you seem to have abused that privilege!!!! i can only say that next time stop making use of your rear and concentrate on what is being said, may be then you can grasp where the discussion is leading you to!*_

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Xeric

^^ It is funny to see how the indians have retracted, first their '3 million bengalis killed' claim and have now accepted that india had indeed in the past (since Jan '71 in East Pakistan) and still continue to meddels in other country's affairs as a (baniyan) habit.

The Pakistani members must have use Ariel to whitewash the indians, and the indians on seeing thier pants down should have said:

'Madam wo kal sack-race haina, uski practice karahy thay'

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Windjammer

Indra Gandhi's statement that......."India has entered East Pakistan in........Self defence" is still tops The Banyan Bloomers.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LaBong

> But as you are the kind of man that is a blueprint for building an idiot, i will take some time out and explain what i really meant; i was kinda 'justifying' and making a base for my further discussion and at the same time debunking the indian claim of PA killing 3 millions Bengalis (though you guys have shamelessly also retracted the same when Agno gave you guys the taste of your own medicine), and therefore i tried to post the excerpts from those books basing on which one can conclude that an indian involvement into the internal affairs of Pakistan was there long before Op Searchlight was conceived as throughly proved by the following accounts:
> 
> - The &#8216;illegal immigrants&#8217; (10 million of them who formed the so called basis for an (armed) indian intervention in East Pakistan) were sorted out into different categories like Intelligence operators and Guerrilla fighters etc.
> 
> - The Indian armed forces were given the full responsibility to turn the Mukti Bahini into some shape whereby they could assist the Indian Army during their invasion of East Pakistan. A control headquarters was established under the overall supervision of Indian Eastern Command and three sector headquarters were also formed, one each at Agartala, Cooch Behar and Balurghat
> 
> - Brigadier Shah Beg and Brigadier Sant Singh, both of the Indian Army, were directed to organize the Mukti Bahini. The former operated from Agartala while the latter established contact with &#8216;Tiger&#8217; Siddiqui a Bengali rebel officer at Tura, Mymensingh
> 
> - Six training centres were established in India, each commanded by an Indian brigadier.
> 
> - Belonia salient in the East was attacked on 8/ 9 November, Bhurigram in the north on night 13/ 14 November. These were preliminary operations carried out at the battalion level, even before the all out attack by the Indian armed forces on East Pakistan which began on November 21.



Yes those 10 lakhs went to India to stay in refugee camp leaving all their possessions and took arms against poor Pakistani army equipped with latest US hardware, despite all the love that had been delved out to them by orgy loving racist Pakistani Generals! Thus Op Searchlight is justified. 

Is opium found in abundance in Pakistan as well?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Xeric

Windjammer said:


> Indra Gandhi's statement that......."India has entered East Pakistan in........Self defence" is still tops The Banyan Bloomers.


 
i have amply explianed the indian involvment in erstwhile E.Pakistan long before Op Searchlight (by virtue if which the indians claim the genocide in Bangladesh), it also exposes the indian hand in declaration of independence by Bangladesh. The smuggling Mr Tajuddin Ahmed (a prominent Bengali ledear who was serving as its General Secretary before seperation) to a border village in india and his installation as the head of provisional Bangladesh Govt in Mujibnagar, a house in Calcutta rented by RAW, all tells us about the 'self-defence' by Mrs Gandhi.

Mrs Gandhi's soul in her grave,oops sorry she doesnt have one, sorry again, dont mean any insult, rather her ashes must b mulling upon the betrayl by her countrymen today when they all are accepting that india was not acting in self defence, nor was it bleeding for the 'illegal immigrants' and that india had poked its nose in E.Pakistan around Mar '71 well before Pakistan did what it did on 3 Dec.

i wish she knew what her countrymen would bring her, 42 years after she 'sized the oppurtunity' to drown 2 Nation Theory in the Bay of Bengal!!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Windjammer

Xeric said:


> i have amply explianed the indian involvment in erstwhile E.Pakistan long before Op Searchlight (by virtue if which the indians claim the genocide in Bangladesh), it also exposes the indian hand in declaration of independence by Bangladesh. The smuggling Mr Tajuddin Ahmed (a prominent Bengali ledear who was serving as its General Secretary before seperation) to a border village in india and his installation as the head of provisional Bangladesh Govt in Mujibnagar, a house in Calcutta rented by RAW, all tells us about the 'self-defence' by Mrs Gandhi.
> 
> Mrs Gandhi's soul in her grave,oops sorry she doesnt have one, sorry again, dont mean any insult, rather her ashes must b mulling upon the betrayl by her countrymen today when they all are accepting that india was not acting in self defence, nor was it bleeding for the 'illegal immigrants' and that india had poked its nose in E.Pakistan around Mar '71 well before Pakistan did what it did on 3 Dec.
> 
> i wish she knew what her countrymen would bring her, 42 years after she 'sized the oppurtunity' to drown 2 Nation Theory in the Bay of Bengal!!



Now isn't it ironic, both her and her partner in crime met their makers with compliments of the people they most trusted, lied to and liberated.!!......... Lord works in mysterious ways.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Xeric

Abir said:


> Yes those 10 lakhs went to India to stay in refugee camp leaving all their possessions and took arms against poor Pakistani army equipped with latest US hardware, despite all the love that had been delved out to them by orgy loving racist Pakistani Generals! Thus Op Searchlight is justified.
> 
> Is opium found in abundance in Pakistan as well?


 
i retierate; keep pace with the discussion!

It has been already proven and accepted by your likes that an indian invlovment in E.Pakistan (note the missing Bengladesh) is no more a qoute 'secret' unquote. So, once it has been established that your nationals are working with the enemy, all options are open to counter that, notwithstanding the fact that PA did go overboard with use of excess force, which in turn was connected to the 'moral' and 'seld defencive' support the Bengali rebels were receiving from the indians months before 3 Dec '71.

Dont you guys work on the same principles in Kashmir against the PA supported 'rebels'? Or may be you guys would also retract your stance there - another rehersal for another 'sack race'??

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## toxic_pus

Xeric said:


> ^^ It is funny to see how the indians have retracted, first their '3 million bengalis killed' claim and have now accepted that india had indeed in the past (since Jan '71 in East Pakistan) and still continue to meddels in other country's affairs as a (baniyan) habit.
> 
> The Pakistani members must have use Ariel to whitewash the indians, and the indians on seeing thier pants down should have said:
> 
> 'Madam wo kal sack-race haina, uski practice karahy thay'


Firstly, none of us has 'retracted' any claim on numbers for the simple reason that none of us (i.e. Abir and I) made that claim in the first place. We are pointing out that numbers don't matter to the question of genocide, to which PA stands accused.

Secondly, none of us has 'accepted' that India was involved in East Pakistani affairs since 'January' of 1971, or continues to meddle in Pakistani affairs.

Raising strawman, then beating it down to pulp and then celebrating such amazing victory by patting each other's back, all come naturally to certain Pakistanis, just like breathing. It's time you came out of that cave.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## toxic_pus

Xeric said:


> i have amply explianed the indian involvment in erstwhile E.Pakistan long before Op Searchlight (by virtue if which the indians claim the genocide in Bangladesh), it also exposes the indian hand in declaration of independence by Bangladesh. The smuggling Mr Tajuddin Ahmed (a prominent Bengali ledear who was serving as its General Secretary before seperation) to a border village in india and his installation as the head of provisional Bangladesh Govt in Mujibnagar, a house in Calcutta rented by RAW, all tells us about the 'self-defence' by Mrs Gandhi.


I doubt if you understand what Operation Searchlight is. It refers to the brutal crackdown on AL by PA that started in the middle of the night of 25th March, 1971 and soon turned into a campaign for extermination of Hindus through out the period till December. Pre-25th March, India was nowhere involved in any Pakistani affair for the simple fact that Indian leaders ware pretty busy with general elections. The elections were held during March 1-10 and Mrs Gandhi's govt. came into existence soon afterwards. As Sisson and Rose noted (in their book _War and Secession: Pakistan, India, and the creation of Bangladesh_):


_'...from mid January to early March, the entire political leadership in India was heavily involved in its own election campaign, with both the government and the opposition party leaders on almost constant tours of their own constituencies and the country. They had neither the time nor the inclination to follow events in Pakistan in any depth. Even the External Affairs and Defence ministries and Mrs. Gandhi's private secretariat were rather perfunctory in their analysis of developments before 25 March. No top-level in-depth discussions of Indian polity toward Pakistan took place from February to early March, the critical period, except indirectly in some consideration of developments in West Bengal. Although the Government of India held strong views on how its interests were affected by the political negotiations in Pakistan, the available evidence suggests that New Delhi preferred to await the course of developments there before defining its own policy. '_​

India got involved after 25th March, 1971 when refugees started pouring into West Bengal, thanks to PA. On 10th April, Bangladesh Govt-in-Exile was declared in Mujibnagar, and formally created on 17th. That was the beginning of India's involvement and that is no secret.




> .... they all are accepting that india was not acting in self defence, nor was it bleeding for the 'illegal immigrants' and that india had poked its nose in E.Pakistan around Mar '71 well before Pakistan did what it did on 3 Dec.


You seriously need to read some history book. ASAP. 3rd Dec, 1971 is not the threshold. 25/26th March, 1971 is. Guess which day is celebrated as Independence day in Bangladesh and why.



> i wish she knew what her countrymen would bring her, 42 years after she 'sized the oppurtunity' to drown 2 Nation Theory in the Bay of Bengal!!


Don't worry. Her legacy is in good hands. And no, she didn't throw the TNT to the bottom of Bay of Bengal. Your Muslim brethren in East Paksitan did it. She merely helped them get there.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Windjammer said:


> Indra Gandhi's statement that......."India has entered East Pakistan in........Self defence" is still tops The Banyan Bloomers.



Self defence means defence when attacked.

Attack need not be war or physical.

It could be economic, moral, social etc.

Pakistan had burdened India economically with the refugees.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Xeric

toxic_pus said:


> Firstly, none of us has 'retracted' any claim on numbers for the simple reason that none of us (i.e. Abir and I) made that claim in the first place. We are pointing out that numbers don't matter to the question of genocide, to which PA stands accused.
> 
> Secondly, none of us has 'accepted' that India was involved in East Pakistani affairs since 'January' of 1971, or continues to meddle in Pakistani affairs.
> 
> Raising strawman, then beating it down to pulp and then celebrating such amazing victory by patting each other's back, all come naturally to certain Pakistanis, just like breathing. It's time you came out of that cave.


 AAaaa.. that's it?



toxic_pus said:


> I doubt if you understand what Operation Searchlight is. It refers to the brutal crackdown on AL by PA that started in the middle of the night of 25th March, 1971 and soon turned into a campaign for extermination of Hindus through out the period till December.



Ahan..so you want to tell me that you know about the Operation more than the ones who planned it? FYKI, Lt Gen Sahibzada Yaqub Khan, commander of the Eastern Theatre had, in February 1971, prepared plans for dealing with an insurgency situation in East Pakistan. The plan was code-named *Operation BLITZ*. He was, however aware that a military action alone was not the solution to the political impasse. *I need hardly mention that Operation BLITZ will not and should not be an end in itself but must be followed immediately by the projection of political and economic progress at the national level. Such a course would be an essential sequel to this fire brigade action for the wheel would only then be turned full circle, wrote Yaqub to Yahya.*

But then the situation in East Pakistan after the postponement of the National Assembly session was fast deteriorating. Sheikh Mujibur Rehman had given the call for a virtual takeover of the administration of the province by his supporters which, by now, included almost all politicians, the majority of bureaucrats and a large number of the members of the Bengali elements in the armed forces besides the entire Bengali civil population. Although, all the personalities interviewed at Dacca categorically denied that the militants of the Awami League massacred the *non-Bengalis even before the military crackdown by the Pakistan Army, however, there was ample evidence to prove that they went on a rampage as soon as the announcement of postponing the National Assembly session was made on March 1*. The scene immediately prior to the proposed military action was of complete disorder and total disregard of governmental authority.

Gen Yahya wanted that if a firm action had been taken earlier things would not have gone out of hand. Yahyas insistence for a military action forced Lt Gen Yaqub Khan to resign. He was replaced by Lt General Tikka. There were only two alternatives at that stage. Order the army to restore the authority of the government or hand over powers to the majority party. *The military junta was split on the question of suppressing the insurgency by a military action. Those in East Pakistan were not in favour of it as they had been witnessing the growing popularity of the Awami League in that province. They knew that even after eliminating the die-hard secessionists, the movement in favour of the Six Points Formula would not die down. They were concerned about the mass killings on both sides which were bound to follow once the army was given a free hand to deal with all those elements which had bottled them up and were humiliating them at every corner. Those in West Pakistan were advocating a strong military action.*

Unfortunately, the military authorities in East Pakistan were completely ignored during the political negotiations which had begun in Dacca on March 15. The decision for suppressing the insurgency in East Pakistan by military force, if it becomes necessary, was made on *March 22, 1971 *at a meeting between the* president, the governor and the martial law administrator at Dacca.* No party leader opposed the use of force to re-instate the governments authority. On the afternoon of March 23, when Dacca had given its unanimous vote against a United Pakistan the armed forces chiefs also conveyed their recommendation of a military action; Yahya declared the emergency plan to restore law and order on that very day.

However, *it was not till March 24, that the final decision to crush the Awami League and its supporters was taken. All avenues for seeking a political solution, short of making Pakistan into a confederation, had been explored with no effect. No amount of persuasion, reasoning or discussion had made Mujib or Bhutto change their rigid stand*. The fault of postponing the National Assembly session was to be followed by another one, the military action. The point of no return had arrived. Yahya called Gen Tikka Khan and Maj Gen Rao Farman and asked them to finalize the operation orders for Operation SEARCHLIGHT. The plan prepared earlier by Farman was given the final touches. And the opration began on night 25/26 Mar '71, now what's the fuss about?




> Pre-25th March, India was nowhere involved in any Pakistani affair for the simple fact that Indian leaders ware pretty busy with general elections. The elections were held during March 1-10 and Mrs Gandhi's govt. came into existence soon afterwards. As Sisson and Rose noted (in their book _War and Secession: Pakistan, India, and the creation of Bangladesh_):


Yeah right.

i think you have forgotten Agartala Conspiracy:


_He added that as part of the plan called as "the Agartala Plot" navy steward Mujibur Rahman and educationist Mohammad Ali Reza went to Agartala to seek the Indian support for Bangladesh's independence._
Textbook 'incorrectly' describes Agartala Case: Shawkat​

And also:


_The *Bangla Desh Operation* possibly began *a year before the actual operation *was underway. *Even when the world did get a whiff of it in the shape of the Mukti Bahani, many remained unaware of RAWs involvement. By then Phase I of the operation was already completed.* Phase II saw the Indian Armed Forces poised for the liberation of Bangla Desh. RAW, along with the Mukti Bahani, when they developed into a formidable force, provided information to the Indian forces.​The Indian Express : Op-Ed
_

Mind it, before you try to open your beak and rubbish this as pro-Pakistani news, i must tell you that this Op-Ed infact hinges around depicting india as the 'savior' of Bangladesh and Pakistan as the 'bad boy'.




> _'...from mid January to early March, the entire political leadership in India was heavily involved in its own election campaign, with both the government and the opposition party leaders on almost constant tours of their own constituencies and the country. They had neither the time nor the inclination to follow events in Pakistan in any depth. Even the External Affairs and Defence ministries and Mrs. Gandhi's private secretariat were rather perfunctory in their analysis of developments before 25 March. No top-level in-depth discussions of Indian polity toward Pakistan took place from February to early March, the critical period, except indirectly in some consideration of developments in West Bengal. Although the Government of India held strong views on how its interests were affected by the political negotiations in Pakistan, the available evidence suggests that New Delhi preferred to await the course of developments there before defining its own policy. '_​


WTF is this?


_"By *1968 Indian operatives* had already been in contact with the pro-Mujib faction."_ - *Inside RAW: the story of Indias secret service by Asoka Raina, 1981*​


^^ Also, by this definition (the poor, unable to multi-task and busy indian govt couldnt spare time to plan for Bangladesh and 'follow events in Pakistan in any depth' , WTF?), Pakistan could not have planned Mumbai (Nov 2008) as it was busy with many internal issues, namely (a few of them from Oct-Nov 2008):

3 Sep - Prime Minister of Pakistan Yousaf Raza Gilani survives an assassination attempt.

6 Sep - The Electoral College of Pakistan elects Asif Ali Zardari of the Pakistan Peoples Party as the next President of Pakistan.

11 Sep - President George W. Bush is reported to have authorized United States special forces to conduct operations against insurgents inside Pakistan without seeking approval from the Government of Pakistan.

22 Oct - Pakistan sought help from the IMF on Wednesday to avoid defaulting on billions of dollars in loans and skirt a financial crisis brought on by high fuel prices, dwindling foreign investment and soaring militant violence.

And important of all,
29 Oct - At least 100 people die after a 6.4 magnitude earthquake in Pakistan near the city of Quetta in the Province of Balochistan.

etc
etc.




> *India got involved after 25th March, 1971 when refugees started pouring into West Bengal, thanks to PA*. On 10th April, Bangladesh Govt-in-Exile was declared in Mujibnagar, and formally created on 17th. That was the beginning of India's involvement and that is no secret.


Sure.

You have been adequately face-palmed one more time, see above.

Though i would like to leave you with one thought...unfortunately i ain't sure you have anywhere to put it, so i'll pass!




> You seriously need to read some history book. ASAP. 3rd Dec, 1971 is not the threshold. 25/26th March, 1971 is. Guess which day is celebrated as Independence day in Bangladesh and why.


Well, for me 3 Dec is the threshold, because every text book that you guys have been reading quotes this date to portray Pakistan as the aggressor during the 1971 War. Fortunately, thanks to PDF, you guys wont do it any more!!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tameem

Vinod2070 said:


> The West Pakistani (mainly Punjabi and Pathan) discrimination and ridicule and persecution of Bengalis didn't start in 1971. It started soon after the partition.



West Pakistanis are not on the streets of their capital cities for the coinage to be in their native language i.e. Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto...as far back as july 1948, Its Bengalis!!!Does the persecuation narrated by you started before it???



Vinod2070 said:


> In 1965, the refrain was "The East will be defended in the West". East Pakistan was left open as a bait for India in exchange for Kashmir.



Eventually hat policy is paid off in the end!! and India accepted the ceasfier as soon as it offered by the UN.



Vinod2070 said:


> The genocide or whatever one calls it has been well documented. No amount of rewriting history will change it.



Its not We Pakistanis who are today debunking your propaganda in recent pages...again its Bengalis and rightfully so as they are the only ones who should do it in the first place. So good luck to them.



Vinod2070 said:


> I am glad India helped in ending the persecution of Bangladeshis as the hands of such people.



Personally in my capacity i'm glad too!! as administratively its a nightmare!! i hav no example in the history of mankind for any nation being torn apart so widely by an enemy territory of thousands of miles and survive not only 1 or 2.....but 24 years!!


----------



## Windjammer

Vinod2070 , Tiki Tam Tam , third eye, Abir, toxic _pus.... V .... Xeric.

And I thought, one Pakistani verses five Indians ratio was only limited to the armed forces.

There must be a moral there....... some where. !!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Xeric

Vinod2070 said:


> Funny to see the mental gymnastics of some people who can never learn from the blunders.
> 
> The West Pakistani (mainly Punjabi and Pathan) discrimination and ridicule and persecution of Bengalis didn't start in 1971. It started soon after the partition.



Dont fool around. Rather dont fcuk around!

We know what made Banladesh, we know that mistakes were committed and we know that 'everybody' including the military had played a part in it. But the point is that we accept our mistakes, we acknowledge that Bengalis were mistreated and that they had all the right to stand up for it, but then if it hadnt been for india, things would have ended up more smoothly.

But then you probably dont know a tosh about the reasons behind the clash, as the difference with the distant centres view began to surface in East Pakistan *soon after independence*, when a group of students protested the Quaid-i-Azams speech in Dacca in 1948,* that Urdu alone would be the national language.* Two years later in 1950, the East Pakistan Muslim League asked for maximum autonomy. *The central governments manipulation to deny power to the elected majority in East Pakistan added to the accumulating grievances. Delays in constitution-making and holding national elections exacerbated East Pakistans sense of exclusion.*

Also, East Pakistans isolation during the 1965 War and its lack of self-defence capability gave a fillip to the existing demand for autonomy. *In March 1966, the Awami League leader Sheikh Mujibur Rehman put forward the Six Points. Ayub Khans highly centralised government equated this demand for autonomy with secessionism.*

The government also implicated Mujibur Rehman in this case, though he was in custody during the Agartala Conspiracy period (say thanks to india). Mujibs Six Points and his trial made him a hero out of nothing. As if this was not enough, the federal governments indifference to the plight of the people in East Pakistan after 1970s flood broadened the mistrust fissures.

Mujib, unable to get his fair share in power, *took an extreme position*. *He declined any invitation to visit Islamabad for talks. The political situation got worsened. Yahya  Mujib talks in Dacca broke down on 23 March when the Awami League proposed Pakistan should be made a confederation.*

We should also see the the Bengali sentiments in historical context. During the British Raj, except for a short period between 1905 and 1911, Bengal remained united. During this period, the politics and economy of Bengal were largely dominated by the *Hindus who had won favours from the British*. Muslims, who were largely down trodden, were represented in *two categories: the aristocrats i.e. likes of Nawab Salim Ullah Khan etc, symbolizing the Persian-Urdu speaking culture of northern India and the native lower middle class Bengali peasants, representing the local Bengali culture.*

*Despite the Hindu-Muslim socio-cultural divide, Bengalis were comparatively more regional than people of many other parts of the country*.* This was partly due to the influence of nationalists like Rabindranath Tagore and Romesh Chunder Dutt (Romesh Chunder Dutt was a Bengali writer, civil servant, economic historian and translator of Ramyana and Mahabharata. He had been president of Indian National Congress) and partly because Calcutta remained the capital of the country till 1911.* *The strength of Bengali sentiment *was vividly displayed when the partition of Bengal carried out by Lord Curzon in 1905, had to be undone in 1911. The strong Bengal centric sentiment continued till 1937 elections, when Muslim League was able to form a coalition government with AK Fazlul Haqs Krishak Party in Bengal. *This coalition was an uneasy one, largely due to Fazlul Haqs provincial agenda, which did not go in line with the Muslim Leagues vision.* It was during this period that Lahore Resolution was proposed and the word states included in it. *The coalition finally collapsed in 1941, only within a year of the Lahore Resolution.* The Bengali sentiment was partially overshadowed by the overwhelming force of the Idea of Pakistan, resulting into landslide victory of Muslim League in 1946 elections. *The under currents however, remained.*


The *Socio-Cultural aspects* also played its role. Bengal projected a very vibrant socio-cultural environment, which cut across the Hindu-Muslim divide. The socio-cultural environment was, however, largely *dominated by Hindu traditions,* which were willingly accepted and followed by the Muslims. The province also had a far eastern touch on its culture and society, which was because of its geographic and climatic contiguity with some of those cultures.* Except for religious values, Bengal did not share a common ground on social and cultural aspects with Muslims of northern India.* *This was visible in food, dress, language and festivals etc*. 

*It is also worth pointing out here that Bengalis, despite their self belief in the richness of their customs, traditions and intellect, were not so well perceived by many others in the country which included the British, who considered them non martial race. Their language was also looked down upon by the Muslim aristocrats.*

*So, the indian members should know that it is in the backdrop of socio-cultural environment and Bengal centric sentiment that creation of Pakistan and east-west relations should be studied.* At the time of partition there were inbuilt inadequacies in the relationship between both the wings, which *fundamentally boiled down to constraints imposed by geography and economy*. As for economy, East Bengal had been a poor province during the British rule; whereas, areas that constituted West Pakistan were quite prosperous. The socio-cultural and economic differences were underpinned by the facts of geography.* Sensing the likely troubles between both the wings, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad made a prophetic statement about a decade and a half before 1971. He said, Mr. Jinnah and his followers did not seem to realize that geography was against them. These two regions have no point of physical contact. People in these two areas are completely different from one another in every respect, except only in religion. No one can hope that East and West Pakistan will carry all their differences and form one nation.*.

* Quaid-e-Azam also appeared to have fully understood the likely complications of east, west relations: while addressing an East Pakistani audience in Dhaka on 21 March 1948 he said, You belong to a nation now; you have now carved out a territory, vast territory, it is all yours; it does not belong to a Punjabi or a Sindhi, or a Pathan, or a Bengali; it is yours. Therefore, if you want to build yourself into a nation, for Gods sake give up this provincialism. Such was the broad environment, which set the stage, for an uneasy twenty four years relationship between East and West Pakistan.*


Moreover, with the domination of Urdu speaking community both at the central and provincial levels, the already partially aggrieved Bengalis *(due to award of Calcutta to India)* were further antagonized by the announcement that Urdu would be the national language. *The language row started on February 25, 1948, when a Hindu Bengal member, Mr Dhirendra Nath Dutta, moved a resolution in the constituent assembly that Bengali, along with Urdu, should be used in the assembly proceedings.* To this, Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan responded that Pakistan is a Muslim State and it must have as its lingua franca the language of the Muslim nationIt is necessary for a nation to have one language and the language can only be Urdu and no other language. 

Ofcourse, this was taken with a pinch of salt by Bengalis as their language was spoken by 54.6 % of the people of Pakistan while Urdu was the language of only 7.2 % of Pakistans population. Quaid-e-Azams assertion of the same in Dacca only after one month did no good in settling the issue. The central governments insistence to bulldoze the issue resulted into Language Riots of 1952, which resulted in some deaths and quite a lot of bad taste.


Most importantly, the immediate legal-cum-political challenge faced by the newborn state was *formulation of a constitution, which should have been drafted at the earliest, due to peculiar dictates of geographical, political, economic and social differences between the two wings.* The assembly however, failed to draft a constitution till its dismissal in 1954. The consequences were obvious: politics reverted to provincial levels and trust deficit started to increase between both the wings and there were calls for more autonomy from East Pakistan. 1954 is also generally the time period, when *sub-national tendencies started to appear in East Pakistan. AK Fazlul Haq pioneered these tendencies, when as Chief Minister of East Pakistan, he made statements which were suggestive of independent Bangladesh. It is unfortunate to point out that government failed to fully comprehend the consequences of such divide. This was made obvious by its almost inaction to the United Fronts 21 points, which asked for greater autonomy for East Pakistan.*

So, these were a few reasons that lead to the alienation of Bengalis. But then had india kept its dirty palms out of our internal affairs, things would have been much much better, unfortunately this was not to happen! So, to the likes of vinod, please spare us the bee ess, and dont act smart, because you are not!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

> So, to the likes of vinod, please spare us the bee ess, and dont act smart, because you are not!



Smart enough to handle you any time of the day, any day of the week. 

This multi colored, "multi bold" commentary contains little that we don't know already and takes nothing away from the barbarity perpetrated by the PA on the Bengalis.

The reason the Bengali separation was so violent was because of this kind of tendency on the part of West Pakistanis.

*Roedad Khan, that incorrigible Pakistani bureaucrat, glowed at dawn on March 26, 1971. As Bengalis were shot down, he exclaimed: "Yaar, iman taaza ho gya." Pakistan must someday weep for that comment. And then we will forget.*

Forget 1971, says Pakistan

No gymnastics of Indian support for the Bengali liberation will take that away.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tameem

Vinod2070 said:


> What was wrong in the majority of Pakistanis demanding what is natural. A country's major language should be the one spoken by the majority of its people.



Majority...the difference is only 19/20 and besides the thorning issue is amongst various nationalities only one demanding seperate identification..gave it to them others cry what their fault is?? So its means opeining up the pandora Box so early and that too while we in first year of our independence and their are more desperate issues needs collective attention i/o pitty sectarianism?? they simply played badly in early years of our independence and sow the seeds of distress very early!! So at the end of the day Again its not We who started it!!



Vinod2070 said:


> I don't see any Bengalis. Probably some razakaars (and they don't matter) but mostly Pakistanis on this thread.



Oh...its not my folly that you joined the debate only recently!! check the facts!!




Vinod2070 said:


> Good, we are on the same page then.




May be but for different reasons while you enjoying your blacken face in our civil war which eventually benefitted both of us in the end and that's reason of my rejoysing!!


----------



## Elmo

Everyone on this thread - take a break!


----------



## kobiraaz

East Pakistani Soldiers during Operation Searchlight


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

angeldemon_007 said:


> NEW DELHI &#8211; It is exactly 40 years since the Pakistani military regime of Yahya Khan initiated &#8220;Operation Searchlight&#8221; in March 1971. That military expedition was but the latest in a series of pogroms carried out to intimidate the restive population of what was then called East Pakistan &#8211; today&#8217;s independent Bangladesh. What followed was one of the worst massacres in human history, now all but forgotten by the international community.
> 
> Pakistan was created by the partition of British India in 1947, but its territory was divided into two enclaves separated by hundreds of miles. While they shared a religion, Islam, there were major cultural and linguistic differences between East and West Pakistan.
> 
> In the east, there was a strong sense of being Bengali, and a sizeable Hindu minority continued to live in the province. There was, moreover, strong resentment that political power lay in the hands of western-based politicians and generals who were blatantly insensitive to Bengali demands. It seemed to many that, with the creation of Pakistan, East Pakistan had merely exchanged one form of colonialism for another. And, as Bengali demands for autonomy gained momentum, the response became more repressive.
> 
> In November 1970, tropical cyclone &#8220;Bhola&#8221; struck East Pakistan, killing between 300,000 and 500,000 people. Bhola is still considered one of the worst natural disasters on record, and the military dictatorship&#8217;s lukewarm relief efforts incensed the Bengali population.
> 
> So, when Pakistan&#8217;s military leaders finally allowed elections in late December 1970, East Pakistan voted overwhelmingly for the Bengali-nationalist Awami League, which won 167 of 169 seats in the province. Since East Pakistan was more populous than West Pakistan, the election&#8217;s outcome raised the prospect that the Bengalis would now rule the country as whole. This was not palatable to the Punjabi-dominated military brass or to Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the leader of West Pakistan&#8217;s largest political party. The elections were &#8220;canceled,&#8221; and East Pakistan erupted in open revolt.
> 
> Yahya Khan responded by sending in the troops. The result was a genocide in which as many as three million people, particularly minorities and intellectuals, were killed. Dhaka University&#8217;s residential halls were particularly targeted. Up to 700 students were killed in a single attack on Jagannath Hall. Several well-known professors, both Hindu and Muslim, were murdered. Hundreds of thousands of women were systematically raped in the countryside. By September 1971, ten million refugees had poured into eastern India.
> 
> The world knew what was happening. Time magazine&#8217;s August 2, 1971, issue quoted a United States official saying, &#8220;This is the most incredible, calculated thing since the days of the Nazis in Poland.&#8221; The article goes on to describe the streams of refugees:
> 
> &#8220;Over the rivers and down the highways and along countless jungle paths, the population of East Pakistan continues to hemorrhage into India: an endless unorganized flow of refugees with a few tin kettles, cardboard boxes, and ragged clothes piled on their heads, carrying their sick children and their old. They pad along barefooted, with the mud sucking at their heels in the wet parts. They are silent, except for a child whimpering now and then, but their faces tell the story. Many are sick and covered with sores. Others have cholera, and when they die by the roadside there is no one to bury them.&#8221;
> 
> *The international community&#8217;s response to the massacres was shameful. We now have copies of desperate cables sent by diplomat Archer Blood and his colleagues at the US consulate in Dacca (now Dhaka) pleading with the US government to stop supporting a military regime that was carrying out genocide. Instead, President Richard Nixon concentrated on intimidating Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi into staying out. He would even send the US Seventh Fleet to cow her. Fortunately, Gandhi held her nerve and began to prepare for war.*
> 
> Strengthened by promises of support from the US and China, *Pakistan&#8217;s military commanders ordered pre-emptive air strikes against India on December 3, 1971. The Indian response was swift and sharp. With support from the civilian population, as well as from the Mukti Bahini, an irregular army of Bengali rebels, the Indian army swept into East Pakistan. Nixon was too bogged down in Vietnam to do more than issue threats. On December 16, the Pakistanis signed the instrument of surrender in Dacca. Bangladesh was born.*
> 
> Having acquiesced in the genocide, the international community has conveniently forgotten it, and no Pakistani official has ever been brought to justice. On the contrary, many of the perpetrators later held senior government positions. It is as if the Nuremberg trials never happened after WWII.
> 
> As the world watches Libya&#8217;s Muammar el-Qaddafi slaughter his own people, we should remember the human cost of international indifference.
> 
> The Forgotten Genocide by Sanjeev Sanyal - Project Syndicate



With no Pun towards any section of society(PDF) some freinds here think that indians will become american lapdogs ?
We Indians are not so naive nor do we give S*** about america or its priorities to us owr main objecive is to get our national growth and thats supreme if Indians were so weak in the knees we would have never supported Iran & recently given MRCA contract to Americans & passed Neuklear Liability Bill & Foriegn Direct Investment In Retail .


----------



## Awesome

Who has forgotten it?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Asim Aquil said:


> Who has forgotten it?



True.... how could we forget a genocide tht never happened? lol


----------



## sachin@india

Very sad and Painful...who can forget the Tikka Khan... Butcher of Bengal


----------



## Abingdonboy

It is shameful such actions have effectively gone unpunished because the West sided with Pakistan. India held the most POWs since WWII in her possession (93,000), a HUGE bargaining chip, but let them return home with little in return. 

I was listening to a BBC podcast that travelled to Pakistan to see how the 1971 defeat shaped modern day Pakistan. The reporter (A Pakistani himself) and was effectively brought tot tears when he heard the lies the school children were being told about an international conspiracy that lead to the defeat in East Pakistan and the fact they refused to believe the Pakistani had arrayed out such genocide, rapes and war crimes. Like he said, the PA in Pakistan is like a cult following, no one wants to hear a bad thing said about them dispute the fact they are the main cause of most of Pakistan's problems. 


The world needs to be reminded what has happenend. We must not let such tragedies be forgotten.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## kobiraaz

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> True.... how could we forget a genocide tht never happened? lol


 
it was possible for Pakistan military to hide all these from common pakistanis during 1971.. This is the era of internet. just google for neutral sources. There were lots of foreigners in dhaka during 25th march.... Denial should have some limit.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Abingdonboy said:


> It is shameful such actions have effectively gone unpunished because the West sided with Pakistan. India held the most POWs since WWII in her possession (93,000), a HUGE bargaining chip, but let them return home with little in return.
> 
> I was listening to a BBC podcast that travelled to Pakistan to see how the 1971 defeat shaped modern day Pakistan. The reporter (A Pakistani himself) and was effectively brought tot tears when he heard the lies *the school children were being told about an international conspiracy that lead to the defeat in East Pakistan and the fact they refused to believe the Pakistani had arrayed out such genocide, rapes and war crimes. Like he said, the PA in Pakistan is like a cult following, no one wants to hear a bad thing said about them dispute the fact they are the main cause of most of Pakistan's problems. *
> 
> 
> The world needs to be reminded what has happenend. We must not let such tragedies be forgotten.



My Dear AB , this matter is the cruelest true laie in history of Pakistan , but Owr freinds will never ccept it . So Leave It & Mods Kindly Close This Thread Or Shift it to Bangladesh Defence .


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> It is shameful such actions have effectively gone unpunished because the West sided with Pakistan. India held the most POWs since WWII in her possession (93,000), a HUGE bargaining chip, but let them return home with little in return.
> 
> I was listening to a BBC podcast that travelled to Pakistan to see how the 1971 defeat shaped modern day Pakistan. The reporter (A Pakistani himself) and was effectively brought tot tears when he heard the lies the school children were being told about an international conspiracy that lead to the defeat in East Pakistan and the fact they refused to believe the Pakistani had arrayed out such genocide, rapes and war crimes. Like he said, the PA in Pakistan is like a cult following, no one wants to hear a bad thing said about them dispute the fact they are the main cause of most of Pakistan's problems.
> 
> 
> The world needs to be reminded what has happenend. We must not let such tragedies be forgotten.









---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------




Faarhan said:


> it was possible for Pakistan military to hide all these from common pakistanis during 1971.. This is the era of internet. just google for neutral sources. There were lots of foreigners in dhaka during 25th march.... Denial should have some limit.



3 million? you believe tht? if you fo i bet you also believe in tooth fairy.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> ---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 3 million? you believe tht? if you fo i bet you also believe in tooth fairy.



Sir PN , this is a very old thread why should you bother , anyway what happened back in 1971 has passed , its been 40 years since & if you really believe in your post#5 then Sir PN no need for you to even post on this meaningless thread .


----------



## Awesome

Abingdonboy said:


> It is shameful such actions have effectively gone unpunished because the West sided with Pakistan. India held the most POWs since WWII in her possession (93,000), a HUGE bargaining chip, but let them return home with little in return.
> 
> I was listening to a BBC podcast that travelled to Pakistan to see how the 1971 defeat shaped modern day Pakistan. The reporter (A Pakistani himself) and was effectively brought tot tears when he heard the lies the school children were being told about an international conspiracy that lead to the defeat in East Pakistan and the fact they refused to believe the Pakistani had arrayed out such genocide, rapes and war crimes. Like he said, the PA in Pakistan is like a cult following, no one wants to hear a bad thing said about them dispute the fact they are the main cause of most of Pakistan's problems.
> 
> 
> The world needs to be reminded what has happenend. We must not let such tragedies be forgotten.



It's a misconception that we think anyone more than ourselves (the leaders) were to blame for the issues. Awami league was justified in creating the government, it won the elections. The squabble between the leaders was handled poorly.

The conspiracy angle has some part to play, but you guys look at it and fixate on it, as if we are unaware of the real issue and facts. Most people who did anything wrong are dead from that era. I know so much about it, when I wasn't even born during that time - so surely no one has forgotten it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## kobiraaz

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> ---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 3 million? you believe tht? if you fo i bet you also believe in tooth fairy.


no sir. I don't believe that.. 3 million is too much. but there was genocide which you cant deny. topic is on 25th march. There is a hall for hindus in Dhaka university.... Military attacked on it and killed everyone they found... you will understand the nature if you observe Asad in syria now......


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Faarhan said:


> no sir. I don't believe that.. 3 million is too much. but there was genocide which you cant deny. topic is on 25th march. There is a hall for hindus in Dhaka university.... Military attacked on it and killed everyone they found... you will understand the nature if you observe Asad in syria now......



The number was around 20,000 or so... 3 million makes us look like Nazis... i mean a large scale genocide and the world didnt even notice?


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The number was around 20,000 or so... 3 million makes us look like Nazis... i mean a large scale genocide and the world didnt even notice?



OK let me ask you this since you are a *Nationalist* what according to you happened & did the fall of Dhaka & sepparation of pakistan had or hasany ill effects on the current *rulers* of Pakistan?


----------



## Doctor09

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> OK let me ask you this since you are a *Nationalist* what according to you happened & did the fall of Dhaka & sepparation of pakistan had or hasany ill effects on the current *rulers* of Pakistan?


dont talk about the rulers thay are corrupt people and because of their mistakes East Pakistan separated .


----------



## Windjammer

sachin@india said:


> Very sad and Painful...who can forget the Tikka Khan... Butcher of Bengal



It was a great pity, Tikka Khan was pulled back much earlier hence the events spiralled out of control and despite requests from other Commanders to let Tikka go....Yayha Khan kept him back. Those were sad events of forty years earlier but more closer to our times, certain Sajjan Kumar still walks free. !!


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Doctor09 said:


> dont talk about the rulers thay are corrupt people and because of their mistakes East Pakistan separated .



And Which One's are you Talking about Doctor SIR ?

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------




Windjammer said:


> It was a great pity, Tikka Khan was pulled back much earlier hence the events spiralled out of control and despite requests from other Commanders to let Tikka go....Yayha Khan kept him back. Those were sad events of forty years earlier but more closer to our times, certain *Sajjan Kumar d still walks free*. !!



so now trolling begins & the thread is diverted to 1984 anty sikh riots from 1971 fall of dhaka ? 


Thats an exellent way to advance as much as 13 whole years ! Man your good , I like IT ?


----------



## Awesome

Faarhan said:


> no sir. I don't believe that.. 3 million is too much. but there was genocide which you cant deny. topic is on 25th march. There is a hall for hindus in Dhaka university.... Military attacked on it and killed everyone they found... you will understand the nature if you observe Asad in syria now......



There were actually 300,000 deaths as have been revised by Bangladeshi historians.

The 300,000 deaths also has a mix of - rioting, killed by Mukti Bahini, pro-Pakistanis that were killed, killed by Pakistan army while fighting and defending, intentionally killed by Pakistan army as a authoritarian tactic, killed by Indian groups, Pakistanis killed by Indian troops, RAWs killings.

So the ones in which you can truly say Pakistanis are at fault would be the ones where civilian Bangladeshis were killed by Pakistan army as an authoritarian tactic. So many photos of the genocide have been proven to be photos of Indian soldiers killing and tyranizing Bangladeshis now, that nothing can be said for certain who did what. 

It is also quite telling that Bangladeshis today at the people to people level are more friendly to Pakistanis than they are to India. The government to government level also changes as when the Awami League comes and goes. So all these factors are quite telling that the accusations that are made against Pakistan - are not true.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Asim Aquil said:


> *There were actually 300,000 deaths as have been revised by Bangladeshi historians.*
> 
> The 300,000 deaths also has a mix of - rioting, killed by Mukti Bahini, pro-Pakistanis that were killed, killed by Pakistan army while fighting and defending, intentionally killed by Pakistan army as a authoritarian tactic, killed by Indian groups, Pakistanis killed by Indian troops, RAWs killings.
> 
> So the ones in which you can truly say Pakistanis are at fault would be the ones where civilian Bangladeshis were killed by Pakistan army as an authoritarian tactic. So many photos of the genocide have been proven to be photos of Indian soldiers killing and tyranizing Bangladeshis now, that nothing can be said for certain who did what.
> 
> It is also quite telling that Bangladeshis today at the people to people level are more friendly to Pakistanis than they are to India. The government to government level also changes as when the Awami League comes and goes. So all these factors are quite telling that the accusations that are made against Pakistan - are not true.



This is getting better , chalo ji 

Yahan Se

*The number was around 20,000 or so... 3 million makes us look like Nazis... i mean a large scale genocide and the world didnt even notice*
Yahan Tak to pahunche

]*There were actually 300,000 deaths as have been revised by Bangladeshi historians.*


----------



## Windjammer

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> so now trolling begins & the thread is diverted to 1984 anty sikh riots from 1971 fall of dhaka ?
> 
> 
> Thats an exellent way to advance as much as 13 whole years ! Man your good , I like IT ?



Not exactly, it's a false notion that Tikka was responsible for the so called genocide, in any case the situation in East Pakistan due to Indian interference developed into a full fledged war, hence casualties are expected and no one should make an excuse for them, however the Sikh massacre was far from any war like footings....Crocodile tears may look good on an open forum but a little introspection wouldn't go a miss.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Windjammer said:


> Not exactly, it's a false notion that Tikka was responsible for the so called genocide, in any case the situation in East Pakistan due to Indian interference developed into a full fledged war, hence casualties are expected and no one should make an excuse for them, however the Sikh massacre was far from any war like footings....Crocodile tears may look good on an open forum but a little introspection wouldn't go a miss.



Shagird - Woh Hain Zara Khafa Khafa - Mohd.Rafi & Lata Mangeshkar - YouTube


----------



## shuntmaster

VIEW: Fall of Dhaka and a fall guy &#8212;D Asghar

The biggest issue with our nation is that we never want to reflect on our mistakes with honesty. We never want to offer an honest introspection 

*If hypocrisy was a sport, undoubtedly we Pakistanis would be the world champions.* True to the core, till this day we are unmoved by the atrocities we unleashed on our eastern wing and dub it all as a conspiracy. Heck, we do not even want to accept our own mistakes and apologise to the millions of Bangladeshis because how could we possibly be wrong.

Every time December comes, the wounds of a shameful and utterly disgraceful defeat are renewed. The images of helpless Bengalis and their massacre by our &#8216;valiant soldiers&#8217; comes to mind. There are certain people who want to put the blame on a so-called controversial individual, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto (ZAB). Till this day, these individuals blast a false narrative and consider ZAB responsible for the breakup of united Pakistan.

There is no denying that East Pakistan was feeling isolated for a long time. Again, as a totally lay person, I would like to raise a few points here. Even prior to Ayub Khan&#8217;s martial law, there was discontent in that area. Yes, Bhutto served in Ayub&#8217;s regime, but his rise was attributed to being a young and bold foreign minister. He was not an Interior Minister and had little to do with East Pakistan.

ZAB may have been controversial, passionate and extremely zestful, but in no shape or form can he be held responsible for this ugly episode. Back in 1967, when he formed the Pakistan People&#8217;s Party (PPP), he had already distanced himself from Ayub&#8217;s regime totally.

The grievances of the people of East Pakistan were ignored by the mighty military establishment. By the time General Ayub handed the baton over to General Yahya, ZAB&#8217;s political career had taken off. He was no longer a government minister but a true political leader with a solid backing of the people.

It was shocking for the military establishment to witness the mandate of the people from both wings in the elections of 1970. It has been proved time and again that when the people of Pakistan have been given their right to vote, they have always chosen the progressives. The Awami League&#8217;s victory in the then East Pakistan and the PPP&#8217;s dominance in West Pakistan was well expected.

Needless to say, even at that point, the establishment was unwilling to accept that mandate. Was it not ZAB who offered Sheikh Mujibur Rehman and his Awami League to form a government with him? He did offer Mujib to become prime minister of a united Pakistan.

The discontent among the Bengalis was overwhelming and they were able to read the writing on the wall. Was it ZAB who was holding power in Islamabad and unwilling to transfer it to the elected leaders? For that matter, who unleashed the full-fledged military operation in East Pakistan, in order to crush a so-called &#8216;Indian-supported conspiracy&#8217;? Can anyone in their right mind come up with any logical explanation who gave those orders and why? Was it ZAB who cajoled the military to do so? Why would have the military followed the commands of a civilian leader?

Who raised the squads of Al-Shams and Al-Badr (militias) in the troubled eastern wing? Who was responsible for rape, murder and mayhem in that area? Who left thousands of illegitimate children behind? Who gave the nation a false narrative that all was well and our valiant soldiers were going to crush this &#8216;evil conspiracy&#8217;? Who surrendered on December 16, 1971&#8211; was it ZAB or A K Niazi?

The biggest issue with our nation is that we never want to reflect on our mistakes with honesty. We never want to offer an honest introspection. Back then when ZAB became the first civilian Martial Law Administrator, he was ridiculed. Till this day, some misguided people use that as an epithet against him. The question to ask very honestly is why he did that. He was wary of his predecessors and their antics. Given the major debacle that the nation had gone through, was it not wise of him to do so? If he had any evil intentions, then why did he not cling on to that dictatorial power?

If anything, our establishment is indebted to ZAB for negotiating the safe return of 90,000 prisoners of war. It was ZAB who went to Simla and made that impossible thing happen. If he had any vendetta against the Bengalis, why would have ZAB accepted Bangladesh as a separate nation? Why would he go to Dhaka and lay wreaths on their monument of the fallen? Why would he meet Mujib again and embrace him at the historic Islamic Summit in 1974 in Lahore?

As always, shying away from our history is very easy and laying the blame on ZAB is even easier. We invent our own history to suit our own egos. We have high regard for a term called &#8216;conspiracy&#8217;. Any time we are unable to face the truth, we give it a facade of conspiracy and try to create an enemy or invent a fall guy.

ZAB may have done a lot of things as an elected prime minister of Pakistan that the people may vehemently disagree with but to blame him as the culprit behind the breakup of Pakistan is downright dishonest and inaccurate. The irony is that till this day we are in the same mode and unwilling to face and accept the reality. History can never be fabricated. Someone, somewhere, accounts for the truth. Accepting and learning from that bitter truth can perhaps make us understand ourselves better.

The writer is a Pakistani-American mortgage banker by profession. He blogs at D Asghar's Political Prism and can be reached at dasghar@aol.com. He tweets at Twitter

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kobiraaz

Asim Aquil said:


> There were actually 300,000 deaths as have been revised by Bangladeshi historians.
> 
> The 300,000 deaths also has a mix of - rioting, killed by Mukti Bahini, pro-Pakistanis that were killed, killed by Pakistan army while fighting and defending, intentionally killed by Pakistan army as a authoritarian tactic, killed by Indian groups, Pakistanis killed by Indian troops, RAWs killings.
> 
> So the ones in which you can truly say Pakistanis are at fault would be the ones where civilian Bangladeshis were killed by Pakistan army as an authoritarian tactic. So many photos of the genocide have been proven to be photos of Indian soldiers killing and tyranizing Bangladeshis now, that nothing can be said for certain who did what.
> 
> It is also quite telling that Bangladeshis today at the people to people level are more friendly to Pakistanis than they are to India. The government to government level also changes as when the Awami League comes and goes. So all these factors are quite telling that the accusations that are made against Pakistan - are not true.


^ i read once -When Pakistani soldiers were being arrested by indian soldiers, a mukti cried.. When he was asked about it by other Muktis, he replied '' i can't tolerate it that muslims are taken pows by hindus'' . This is common mentality in Bangladesh.... They will support pakistan always against india on religious background.... Anyway this doesnt prove genocide false.. Pakistan took the strategy of killing everyone who opposes military (even innocent doctors ).... But it backfired. The more they killed, the more people joined Mukti out of conscience or avenging mentality..... Yes they killed many in reply but it is nowhere near Pakistani genocide.......

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kobiraaz

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> This is getting better , chalo ji
> 
> Yahan Se
> 
> *The number was around 20,000 or so... 3 million makes us look like Nazis... i mean a large scale genocide and the world didnt even notice*
> Yahan Tak to pahunche
> 
> ]*There were actually 300,000 deaths as have been revised by Bangladeshi historians.*



Pakistan - 25 thousand. 
Bangladesh - 30 Lakh
actually both are nationalistic verson of history...
Actual death count is around 2-3 lakh..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Doctor09

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> *And Which One's are you Talking about Doctor SIR *?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> so now trolling begins & the thread is diverted to 1984 anty sikh riots from 1971 fall of dhaka ?
> 
> 
> Thats an exellent way to advance as much as 13 whole years ! Man your good , I like IT ?


Bhutto and Mujeeb both were failed in power sharing formula + Yehya khan was drunk idiot who had no knowledge whats happening there . And look at our current Poltical leadership : Mr . Zardari and only this name can describe you the whole story .
BTW this 3 million genocide number is exaggerated i advise you to read the Sarmila Boss and she did research on this and she mentioned that this is overly exaggerated number and its far less than this

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Doctor09

Faarhan said:


> Pakistan - 25 thousand.
> Bangladesh - 30 Lakh
> actually both are nationalistic verson of history...
> Actual death count is around 2-3 lakh..


In wars killings are committed by both sides and yes army did kill many Bangalis who were involved in Anti Pak activities but on the other hand Muktis also killed lot of Biharis and Pakistanis so when you talk about genocide why people dont mentioned crimes by Muktis ?
This 3 million genocide number is far beyond reality . Actual number is much less than that.


----------



## kobiraaz

Doctor09 said:


> In wars killings are committed by both sides and yes army did kill many Bangalis who were involved in Anti Pak activities but on the other hand Muktis also killed lot of Biharis and Pakistanis so when you talk about genocide why people dont mentioned crimes by Muktis ?
> This 3 million genocide number is far beyond reality . Actual number is much less than that.



After 16th december UNHCR declared some safe zones across the country, where Biharis took shelter... Those are still known as Jeneva camp which were controlled by UN.... So if anyone knows better about Biharis it is UN as they were in direct contact with biharis. According to them Bihari death count is 1 thousand.....


----------



## Areesh

Nelson said:


> Bangladesh is what happens when you start killing your own citizens. I sincerely hope you would learn from your mistakes and not repeat it in Baluchistan.


 
Lol the advice comes from someone who support every violence against civilians in occupied Kashmir. What a joke.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## fd24

Nelson said:


> Bangladesh is what happens when you start killing your own citizens. I sincerely hope you would learn from your mistakes and not repeat it in Baluchistan.



Why the trolling? Why bring Baluchistan into this when its clearly off topic? Is it because deep down inside you tiny brain cell you are praying and having a wet dream about Baluchistan creating an issue for our nation? Don't give me your "sincerely" - you are not sincere and are simply trolling. Why cant you simply respect the site you are on by being on topic? THe obsession gets even deeper.

As Asim says above its noticeable at the relation between Bangladesh and Pakistan today is great - unlike India with Bangladesh.


----------



## Windjammer

Nelson said:


> Bangladesh is what happens when you start killing your own citizens. I sincerely hope you would learn from your mistakes and not repeat it in Baluchistan.



Standing atop mass graves, I say you are in an ideal position to deliver the cheap banter.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

superkaif said:


> Why the trolling? Why bring Baluchistan into this when its clearly off topic? Is it because deep down inside you tiny brain cell you are praying and having a wet dream about Baluchistan creating an issue for our nation? Don't give me your "sincerely" - you are not sincere and are simply trolling. Why cant you simply respect the site you are on by being on topic? THe obsession gets even deeper.
> 
> As Asim says above its noticeable at the relation between Bangladesh and Pakistan today is great - unlike India with Bangladesh.


 
Hes an indian... and his name is white "nelson"...........  nough said... dnt pay attention to ...... just report these low life trolls.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fd24

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Hes an indian... and his name is white "nelson"...........  nough said... dnt pay attention to ...... just report these low life trolls.



I hear you and understand. I am on this site because i love my nation and want to learn more about our issues. I try to be respectful to our neighbors yet troll fools like this make it difficult. I dont understand what the obsession is yaar. They have some incredible issues yet want to talk about Baluchistan - what a loser?? 

From Bangaldesh issues to Baluchistan???

Wish JonAsad was around to comment!!! lolzzz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

superkaif said:


> Why the trolling? Why bring Baluchistan into this when its clearly off topic? Is it because deep down inside you tiny brain cell you are praying and having a wet dream about Baluchistan creating an issue for our nation? Don't give me your "sincerely" - you are not sincere and are simply trolling. Why cant you simply respect the site you are on by being on topic? THe obsession gets even deeper.
> 
> As Asim says above its noticeable at the relation between Bangladesh and Pakistan today is great - unlike India with Bangladesh.



My Kind SK SIR ! you are write why troll by bringing in baluchistan in this thread but then why should a person of your stature ignore bringing 1984 riots & Kashmeer into this thread , Kindly Explain .SIR .


----------



## Awesome

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> This is getting better , chalo ji
> 
> Yahan Se
> 
> *The number was around 20,000 or so... 3 million makes us look like Nazis... i mean a large scale genocide and the world didnt even notice*
> Yahan Tak to pahunche
> 
> ]*There were actually 300,000 deaths as have been revised by Bangladeshi historians.*



Different people different opinions. I am speaking from experience of actually having this debate 100 times before .

I have neither counted, the figures of 20,000, 300,000 nor 3 million - It is my opinion that there isn't a list of the dead either. These are best guesses by studies done by historians.

The 300,000 figure was revised disputing the 3 million figure by Bangladeshis which is the number of total dead. 

Now if you do hissay bakray of this figure, give some to us, some to your own country, some to Bangladeshis, some to the actual war... The numbers that come to Pakistan would be less than the other groups. Our real mistake was only not accepting Awami Leagues democratic win.

---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 PM ----------

I would like to add, that this same article is rehashed every year... Google the keywords: Bangladesh, Forgotten Genocide. 

You'll find one article for every year with a few things changed up and down.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Asim Aquil said:


> Different people different opinions. I am speaking from experience of actually having this debate 100 times before .
> 
> I have neither counted, the figures of 20,000, 300,000 nor 3 million - It is my opinion that there isn't a list of the dead either. These are best guesses by studies done by historians.
> 
> The 300,000 figure was revised disputing the 3 million figure by Bangladeshis which is the number of total dead.
> 
> Now if you do hissay bakray of this figure, give some to us, some to your own country, some to Bangladeshis, some to the actual war... The numbers that come to Pakistan would be less than the other groups.* Our real mistake was only not accepting Awami Leagues democratic win*.



So True Sir , but why should the generals of PA drag there feet into this , bengalies were the only people who really wanted pakistan as most of the landlords were Hindu in this part & most of theworkers were muslims +situation was rewerse on the western part , but my point is why did millitary was so baised against bengalies that it had to go for Oparation Searchlight & such kindly explain .


----------



## Awesome

Faarhan said:


> ^ i read once -When Pakistani soldiers were being arrested by indian soldiers, a mukti cried.. When he was asked about it by other Muktis, he replied '' i can't tolerate it that muslims are taken pows by hindus'' . This is common mentality in Bangladesh.... They will support pakistan always against india on religious background.... Anyway this doesnt prove genocide false.. Pakistan took the strategy of killing everyone who opposes military (even innocent doctors ).... But it backfired. The more they killed, the more people joined Mukti out of conscience or avenging mentality..... Yes they killed many in reply but it is nowhere near Pakistani genocide.......



It was a different time - given the choice now majority in Pakistan would side with the democratic process. I'm sure many things were done that were wrong by Pakistan, starting from the cause of the fight.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Awesome

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> So True Sir , but why should the generals of PA drag there feet into this , bengalies were the only people who really wanted pakistan as most of the landlords were Hindu in this part & most of theworkers were muslims +situation was rewerse on the western part , but my point is why did millitary was so baised against bengalies that it had to go for Oparation Searchlight & such kindly explain .



Before throwing the blame to the PA, let's put things into perspective. The first person who disagreed with Awami's win was ZAB. He came with a formula - you govern that side, I govern this side. Sounds BS, and it was. He lost, so he should have stepped aside. 

The general in charge, Ayub Khan who ZAB deposed, was no longer the one who could call this shot. Yahya Khan acted poorly, but ZAB played one more game where he start back channel talks with Mujib saying "You become PM, oust Yahya out of Presidency and make me President". This caused friction which led to army action and rest is history.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DESH PRAIMEE

Asim Aquil said:


> Before throwing the blame to the PA, let's put things into perspective. The first person who disagreed with Awami's win was ZAB. He came with a formula - you govern that side, I govern this side. Sounds BS, and it was. He lost, so he should have stepped aside.
> 
> The general in charge, Ayub Khan who ZAB deposed, was no longer the one who could call this shot. Yahya Khan acted poorly, but ZAB played one more game where he start back channel talks with Mujib saying "You become PM, oust Yahya out of Presidency and make me President". This caused friction which led to army action and rest is history.



So the fact of the matter is it was ZAB who was responsible for what happened in 1971...are you sure ? cause if that was so then why is ZAB still considered a hero , it means Zia was write ? so the bottemline is that Pakistanies are still in love with there traitor & the person who gave you the biggest open wound is still a hero & army after all is what should i say OK ...man this is so confeusing .no wonder why Pakistanies love Conspiracy Theories , anyway Thanks SIR AA .


----------



## Awesome

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> So the fact of the matter is it was ZAB who was responsible for what happened in 1971...are you sure ? cause if that was so then why is ZAB still considered a hero , it means Zia was write ? so the bottemline is that Pakistanies are still in love with there traitor & the person who gave you the biggest open wound is still a hero & army after all is what should i say OK ...man this is so confeusing .no wonder why Pakistanies love Conspiracy Theories , anyway Thanks SIR AA .



ZAB's Bhutto family is a big land owner in Pakistan. Through a mix of fraudulent elections, enforcing people who live on Bhutto lands to vote for him and being an excellent orator, his charisma lives on.


----------



## lem34

Asim Aquil said:


> ZAB's Bhutto family is a big land owner in Pakistan. Through a mix of fraudulent elections, enforcing people who live on Bhutto lands to vote for him and being an excellent orator, his charisma lives on.



wasnt the land given to his father or grandfather by the british for being a traitor to his own people

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## eastwatch

Faarhan said:


> East Pakistani Soldiers during Operation Searchlight



This is a very good thread with the infusion of historical facts based on reality and without bias towards any of the contending parties. I wish people would have kept on contributing in that thread. One thing, the articles should not have been posted serially one by one in a short time. These should have been posted after the posters almost completed discussions on the already posted articles. In this way, the thread life could have been lengthened.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## eastwatch

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> ---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 3 million? you believe tht? if you fo i bet you also believe in tooth fairy.



3 million is certainly a propaganda figure.


----------



## Kambojaric

Bose's case-by-case arithmetic leads her in the end to estimate that between 50,000 and 100,000 people died in 1971. One lakh, in other words, at most. One cannot say that she absolutely proves this, but her evidence points in that direction, and, in any case vastly away from the figure of 3 million still proclaimed in Bangladesh and India. The wider revision of the conflict's history she implies exonerates the Pakistani government of any plot to rule the east by force, suggests that the Bengali leader Sheikh Mujibur Rahman let the genie of nationalism out of the bottle but could not control it, and insists that the conflict was a civil war within East Pakistan. The killings by Bengalis of non-Bengali minorities, of Bengalis who stuck with the idea of a united Pakistan, and even of some Hindu Bengalis  all of whose deaths were attributed at the time to the Pakistani army  needs to be reckoned in any fair balance. The notion that the Bangladesh movement was non-violent, even Gandhian, was always fantastical. Bose has written a book that should provoke both fresh research and fresh thinking about a fateful turning point in the history of the subcontinent.

Dead Reckoning by Sarmila Bose - review | Books | The Guardian


Seriously Bangladeshis need to get over this or be honest, its a war, atrocities happened no doubt and i would apologize for them but honestly millions? who on earth are you trying to kid? If you wish to lie like that then dont expect any apology!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kambojaric

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> Sir do you know the background of this s.bose ? she is a known maoist saympethisizer and so called intellectual bangalies who ruled west bengal for more than 30 years & she had written this book in order to win over muslim(Illeagel bangladeshi )votes which started to drift towards trinamool & some regional muslim parties . secondly even if 1-1.5 lakh people died just for baised land reforms & some man's lust for power do you really think it was worth it .



I know her very well, here you have a short biography from Oxford University

"She has taught and held research positions at Harvard, George Washington University, University of Warwick"

Pretty prestigious academic institutes wouldnt you say?

Sarmila Bose | Politics and International Relations, University of Oxford


----------



## Awesome

Aryan_B said:


> wasnt the land given to his father or grandfather by the british for being a traitor to his own people



Great great grandfather I think... I can't comment on being a traitor, but at that time in Sindh The British had given the offer of whoever can till the land as far as they could, they would be declared land owners. This was Doda Khan Bhutto.

ZAB > Shahnawaz Bhutto > Ghulam Murtaza Bhutto (not BB's brother) > Khuda Baksh Bhutto > Doda Khan Bhutto...

Before that the Bhutto's founded the village of Garhi Pir Baksh some insanely long time ago by of course Pir Baksh Bhutto. No known history of them before that.


----------



## Awesome

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> So according to me what my freinds(bengali origanally from area naer nawakhali) told me that in 1971 the main problem was land owned by hindu bengalies been ditribeuted to bihari muslims by westrn pakistanies & bengalies were unhappy as they were promised it in 1947 but for politics it was done in a wrong taste ,(and what freinds on this forum believe) bengalies became angry & ZAB lost the elections , to save his skin from millitary he played a cruel game with MUR and he MUR fell for it & thus millitary+ bihari muslims +ZAB started in operation to crub bengally revolt by operation searchlight & such which morphed into Genocide and Evil India played games with muktibahini & East BenGal/East pakistan became Bangladesh , kindly please correct me & give your inputs , thanks .



These were side issues - Mujib didn't breakaway on these issues, he and the Bangladeshis fought them. But the real problem occurred when the basic democratic right to them was denied by ZAB - then of course the army action sealed the deal.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kambojaric

DESH PRAIMEE said:


> OK , now whats your comment on the second part & my post#45 .



I dont see whats the point in pondering over whether the past was worth it or not, whats happened has happened, both sides need to move on, Pakistanis have. Bangladeshis still want apologies for some ridiculous numbers, that's where my problem lies.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## extra terrestrial

*The number of dead in Bangladesh in 1971 was almost certainly well into seven figures. It was one of the worst genocides of the World War II era, outstripping Rwanda (800,000 killed) and probably surpassing even Indonesia (1 million to 1.5 million killed in 1965-66). As R.J. Rummel writes,*

The human death toll over only 267 days was incredible. Just to give for five out of the eighteen districts some incomplete statistics published in Bangladesh newspapers or by an Inquiry Committee, the Pakistani army killed 100,000 Bengalis in Dacca, 150,000 in Khulna, 75,000 in Jessore, 95,000 in Comilla, and 100,000 in Chittagong. For eighteen districts the total is 1,247,000 killed. This was an incomplete toll, and to this day no one really knows the final toll. Some estimates of the democide [Rummel's "death by government"] are much lower -- one is of 300,000 dead -- but most range from 1 million to 3 million. ... The Pakistani army and allied paramilitary groups killed about one out of every sixty-one people in Pakistan overall; one out of every twenty-five Bengalis, Hindus, and others in East Pakistan. If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 331.)
The proportion of men versus women murdered is impossible to ascertain, but a speculation might be attempted. If we take the highest estimates for both women raped and Bengalis killed (400,000 and 3 million, respectively); if we accept that half as many women were killed as were raped; and if we double that number for murdered children of both sexes (total: 600,000), we are still left with a death-toll that is 80 percent adult male (2.4 million out of 3 million). Any such disproportion, which is almost certainly on the low side, would qualify Bangladesh as one of the worst gendercides against men in the last half-millennium.

Gendercide Watch: Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971

Nevertheless, for me the most hatred part of the genocide is the killing of the brightest sons of the nation in 14th December, 1971 to make the nation brainless!! It definitely pushed the nation few decades back!!


----------



## Awesome

Merging this with the primary Bangladesh thread.


----------

