# Italy delivering surplus self-propelled howitzers to Pakistan Army



## Gryphon

_M109L_

Under a contract dated 30 June 2015, Pakistan Army is receiving surplus M109L self propelled howitzers from Italy since last year. The data has been collected from pak.eximtradeinfo.com website, which maintains an import database. The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.

Deliveries reported:

10x M109L arrived on 13 May 2017

9x M109L arrived on 27 May 2017

20x M109L arrived on 6 November 2017

26x M109L arrived on 28 March 2018

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## Zarvan

Gryphon said:


> _M109L_
> 
> Under a contract dated 30 June 2015, Pakistan Army is receiving surplus M109L self propelled howitzers from Italy since last year. The data has been collected from pak.eximtradeinfo.com website, which maintains an import database. The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.
> 
> Deliveries reported:
> 
> 10x M109L arrived on 13 May 2017
> 
> 9x M109L arrived on 27 May 2017
> 
> 20x M109L arrived on 6 November 2017
> 
> 26x M109L arrived on 28 March 2018


Can you share the link of the news


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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> _M109L_
> 
> Under a contract dated 30 June 2015, Pakistan Army is receiving surplus M109L self propelled howitzers from Italy since last year. The data has been collected from pak.eximtradeinfo.com website, which maintains an import database. The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.
> 
> Deliveries reported:
> 
> 10x M109L arrived on 13 May 2017
> 
> 9x M109L arrived on 27 May 2017
> 
> 20x M109L arrived on 6 November 2017
> 
> 26x M109L arrived on 28 March 2018



does that mean the new tender for SP guns is invalid? 65 SP guns is not bad I suppose these will be updated by Pakistan bit like Mirages are by PAF. Keeps cost down and arty numbers up.

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## Reichsmarschall

Path-Finder said:


> does that mean the new tender for SP guns is invalid? 65 SP guns is not bad I suppose these will be updated by Pakistan bit like Mirages are by PAF. Keeps cost down and arty numbers up.


are these guns better than A5?


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## Path-Finder

Reichsmarschall said:


> are these guns better than A5?


I am not sure but wisdom leads me to believe, Things on all of these supposed outdated guns can be updated. From Barrel to all forms of mechanical and electronic systems from possibly Turkey's indigenous systems they use on their own SP guns.

'If' that is the case then it is big bang for small buck.

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## BetterPakistan

This is great. Pakistan army always deliver a big news suddenly and make us happy.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> does that mean the new tender for SP guns is invalid? 65 SP guns is not bad I suppose these will be updated by Pakistan bit like Mirages are by PAF. Keeps cost down and arty numbers up.


No that will continue but if we would keep getting M-109 at very low prices we would keep inducting them and also upgraded

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## Aawish

Reichsmarschall said:


> are these guns better than A5?



M109L is basically M109A2/A3 with an Italian made 155 mm/39 caliber barrel. Italy has 221 M109L's. Pakistan also had 150+ M109A-2's but they were upgraderd to A-5 standards. I hope these M109L's will also be upgraded to A-5 standards.

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## Shiji

Aawish said:


> M109L is basically M109A2/A3 with an Italian made 155 mm/39 caliber barrel. Italy has 221 M109L's. Pakistan also had 150+ M109A-2's but they were upgraderd to A-5 standards. I hope these M109L's will also be upgraded to A-5 standards.


M109A2s were NOT upgraded to A5s,
Both exist in the inventory separately, and were inducted as such.

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## HAIDER

Here is detail

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## Maxpane

Free?


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> does that mean the new tender for SP guns is invalid?



Wheeled SPH tender is active.



Path-Finder said:


> I am not sure but wisdom leads me to believe, Things on all of these supposed outdated guns can be updated. From Barrel to all forms of mechanical and electronic systems from possibly Turkey's indigenous systems they use on their own SP guns.
> 
> 'If' that is the case then it is big bang for small buck.



This is a boost to the artillery. With the delivered pieces, 1 new artillery brigade can be raised. There are many companies including Rheinmetall offering upgrade of old M109s with new 52 cal. gun.

Note that the exact number of M109L's Pakistan is to receive is not known, so more deliveries in the coming months are a possibility. Italy had 283 pcs, 10 were delivered to Djibouti (which I think are the 52 cal. examples).

@Signalian @Ulla @HRK @django @Starlord

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## Jinn Baba

Maxpane said:


> Free?



Nothing is free.

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## HAIDER



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## Zibago

Loc and Punjab border

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## bananarepublic

Doesn't Pakistan upgrade the m109 locally at HIT ??


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## AMG_12

Zibago said:


> Loc and Punjab border


None at LOC, mainly Punjab and Sindh.

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## Zibago

Game.Invade said:


> None at LOC, mainly Punjab and Sindh.


Heard after snipers big guns were the order of the day did the policy change?

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## Zarvan

Zibago said:


> Heard after snipers big guns were the order of the day did the policy change?


On LOC we have big Guns but Towed Ones not SP ones

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## Zibago

Zarvan said:


> On LOC we have big Guns but Towed Ones not SP ones


I read somewhere howitzers were moving in on loc hot points to deter India after they did the same

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## Reichsmarschall

Zibago said:


> I read somewhere howitzers were moving in on loc hot points to deter India after they did the same


they meant towed Howitzers not SPGs

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## Muhammad Omar

Gryphon said:


> _M109L_
> 
> Under a contract dated 30 June 2015, Pakistan Army is receiving surplus M109L self propelled howitzers from Italy since last year. The data has been collected from pak.eximtradeinfo.com website, which maintains an import database. The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.
> 
> Deliveries reported:
> 
> 10x M109L arrived on 13 May 2017
> 
> 9x M109L arrived on 27 May 2017
> 
> 20x M109L arrived on 6 November 2017
> 
> 26x M109L arrived on 28 March 2018


 How many more are we getting???

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## AMG_12

Zibago said:


> Heard after snipers big guns were the order of the day did the policy change?


On LOC, we have only field guns and towed howitzers deployed. They're usually at the rear HQs but in case of tensions, moved to forward locations. Tracked SPGs have mobility issues in mountainous terrain. Wheeled SPG covers that up but we don't have any in service.

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## Zarvan

Zibago said:


> I read somewhere howitzers were moving in on loc hot points to deter India after they did the same


Yes Towed Artillery Guns are on LOC. If India brings Artillery we would respond with Artillery

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## Shiji

Jinn Baba said:


> Nothing is free.


"Free" statement might be technically right.
Not disclosing anything else these came almost dirt free but lacked some aspects that were catered for locally. Nevertheless a much needed addition of strength.

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## Areesh

That is actually a very good procurement by PA. Nice work without spending a lot. 

Now only if we can do some upgrades and improvements to these guns. It would add a lot of punch to PA fire power.

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## HAIDER

This gun has lots of modification and specially improvement of precision strike . A huge sum of money Italian spent for the improvement of these guns. Its an excellent deal for PA. Evey army try to adopt the equipment which is already in use. Otherwise induction of these toys are very expensive.

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## Cool_Soldier

Good addition in inventory.

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## Super Falcon

These are american guns how italy is delivering it and what happend to wheeled guns tender


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## HAIDER

Super Falcon said:


> These are american guns how italy is delivering it and what happend to wheeled guns tender


Italian adopting new howitzer and selling or giving away. They been in service for long time. Plus, good deal, they all modified with European parts.

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## fatman17

Reichsmarschall said:


> are these guns better than A5?


Will be upgraded to A5

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## Shiji

fatman17 said:


> Will be upgraded to A5


Where, if I may kindly ask?

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## CHI RULES

Zibago said:


> I read somewhere howitzers were moving in on loc hot points to deter India after they did the same


India has already deployed T90s and old Tanks as artillery guns near LOC and even MBTS deployed at Chinese border with Brahmos.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

CHI RULES said:


> India has already deployed T90s and old Tanks as artillery guns near LOC and even MBTS deployed at Chinese border with Brahmos.


They only placed old vijayanta tanks on their posts.. as fixed guns..

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## CHI RULES

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They only placed old vijayanta tanks on their posts.. as fixed guns..


Sir I Knew this will come however for your knowledge sake the same issue already explained in Mahaaz Program, where it was cleared that ISI has got confirm intelligence reports that T90s have been deployed by India near LOC. U may view three Parts on Kashmir one of them consists info.

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## HariPrasad

Looks good


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## MBT 3000

nice


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## Imran Khan

fair deal and its really good sytem

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## TOPGUN

Very good news indeed !!

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## WaLeEdK2

Can HIT upgrade them to A5?

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## Safriz

Afghans deserve the guns , up their ......

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## BATMAN

HariPrasad said:


> Looks good



That's just a file photo.

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## ZedZeeshan

CHI RULES said:


> Sir I Knew this will come however for your knowledge sake the same issue already explained in Mahaaz Program, where it was cleared that ISI has got confirm intelligence reports that T90s have been deployed by India near LOC. U may view three Parts on Kashmir one of them consists info.


I saw that program your right.

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## Cuirassier

CHI RULES said:


> Sir I Knew this will come however for your knowledge sake the same issue already explained in Mahaaz Program, where it was cleared that ISI has got confirm intelligence reports that T90s have been deployed by India near LOC. U may view three Parts on Kashmir one of them consists info.


They do have T72s somewhere b/w ZojiLa and the Valley. Nagrota ofc.

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## HAIDER

fatman17 said:


> Will be upgraded to A5


If i am not wrong A5 need M777 gun upgrade . So, I don't think PA will go for A5, its very expensive upgrade. Also, gun upgrade was already done by Italian with German made.

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## Super Falcon

HAIDER said:


> Italian adopting new howitzer and selling or giving away. They been in service for long time. Plus, good deal, they all modified with European parts.


Good what about new wheeled howitzer .Deal fro pak aarmy


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## Gryphon

It is not very beneficial to have the M109A2 and M109L upgraded to M109A5 as the latter also uses a 39 caliber gun, albeit an improved version.

Rheinmetall offers an upgrade package for old M109s which includes replacing the 39 cal. gun with a 52 cal. gun.

PA is evaluating new base bleed ammo from Europe, which increases 39 cal. gun range to 30 km and the 52 cals. over 40 km.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

CHI RULES said:


> Sir I Knew this will come however for your knowledge sake the same issue already explained in Mahaaz Program, where it was cleared that ISI has got confirm intelligence reports that T90s have been deployed by India near LOC. U may view three Parts on Kashmir one of them consists info.


I’ve seen indian reports on that... mahaaz ain’t Hadith bro.

They are using T-55s and Vijayanta tanks as bunker cum canons on LOC position.

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## HAIDER

Super Falcon said:


> Good what about new wheeled howitzer .Deal fro pak aarmy


I don't know why all of sudden PA demand for howitzer has increased. In two fields PA rejected almost all brands of howitzer and tanks in the market. But, we can see one aspect after Kargil debacle PA realize the importance of latest howitzer. Do we miss something in Kargil ? or howitzer is the best protection for companies secured movement in mountain terrain or these guns angular guidance is so precise with feet and inches to disable enemy few yards away. ????? @ any serving military person ..

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## Blue Marlin

Gryphon said:


> . The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.


this is the same company that makes the aw-139 for pakistan






these guns were probably a sweetener

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> Wheeled SPH tender is active.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a boost to the artillery. With the delivered pieces, 1 new artillery brigade can be raised. There are many companies including Rheinmetall offering upgrade of old M109s with new 52 cal. gun.
> 
> Note that the exact number of M109L's Pakistan is to receive is not known, so more deliveries in the coming months are a possibility. Italy had 283 pcs, 10 were delivered to Djibouti (which I think are the 52 cal. examples).
> 
> There is some additional info. On 7 December 2017, a large self propelled howitzer shipment weighing 1045.98 tonnes (almost 38 M109) has arrived in Pakistan via Toronto. Are those ex Canadian examples is the question.
> 
> @Signalian @Ulla @HRK @django @Starlord



Since past many years, towed Medium Regiments were converted in SP Regiments. 
Most of these converted SP Regiments were then allotted to Independent Armored Brigade Groups. e.g 31 SP in 3rd IABG, IV Corps.



Zibago said:


> Heard after snipers big guns were the order of the day did the policy change?


Sab kuch LOC pe laga do, IA RAPID's ko FC and Rangers handle ker le gi na

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## Zibago

Signalian said:


> Since past many years, towed Medium Regiments were converted in SP Regiments.
> Most of these converted SP Regiments were then allotted to Independent Armored Brigade Groups. e.g 31 SP in 3rd IABG, IV Corps.
> 
> 
> Sab kuch LOC pe laga do, IA RAPID's ko FC and Rangers handle ker le gi na


Phaday wahein hotey hain larkey bhu udhar hi bulayein gay


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## GumNaam

Gryphon said:


> _M109L_
> 
> Under a contract dated 30 June 2015, Pakistan Army is receiving surplus M109L self propelled howitzers from Italy since last year. The data has been collected from pak.eximtradeinfo.com website, which maintains an import database. The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.
> 
> Deliveries reported:
> 
> 10x M109L arrived on 13 May 2017
> 
> 9x M109L arrived on 27 May 2017
> 
> 20x M109L arrived on 6 November 2017
> 
> 26x M109L arrived on 28 March 2018


wow, those many self-propelled howitzers will pack an extremely powerful punch...

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## Signalian

Zibago said:


> Phaday wahein hotey hain larkey bhu udhar hi bulayein gay


1st Armored Div ko Multan se Rahim yar Khan move kara do 

Phadday khatam ho jayen gay kashmir k paharon pe

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## Asad-Ali

M109


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## khanasifm

18-24 guns in sp regiment about 3-4 regiments

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## Inception-06

bananarepublic said:


> Doesn't Pakistan upgrade the m109 locally at HIT ??



_Only overhauling_ facility for some parts !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Signalian said:


> 1st Armored Div ko Multan se Rahim yar Khan move kara do
> 
> Phadday khatam ho jayen gay kashmir k paharon pe



Meh, 1st Armed Div.. miss old times..

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## Shiji

Ulla said:


> _Only overhauling_ facility for some parts !


To be honest my friend, HIT doesn't even touch Artillery, it's 502 that does it and there is no concept of upgrading of artillery in Pakistan, the best we can do is Base OverHaul and in even that we can't fix the Barrel or Chamber.

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## Inception-06

Shiji said:


> To be honest my friend, HIT doesn't even touch Artillery, it's 502 that does it and there is no concept of upgrading of artillery in Pakistan, the best we can do is Base OverHaul and in even that we can't fix the Barrel or Chamber.



That's really sad, if I am not wrong, we should have ca. now 400 M-109 series, are we shipping them to the US or how are we overhauling our whole Artillery Inventory by foreign company's, everything outside? If we are not overhauling our Artillery inventory in a correct way like you mentioned then it means only half of our equipment is battle ready!@Signalian are we here underestimating our capabilities or is that true?

And what means that here than: "Symbol of Pride"

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## Shiji

Ulla said:


> That's really sad, if I am not wrong, we should have ca. now 400 M-109 series, are we shipping them to the US or how are we overhauling our whole Artillery Inventory by foreign company's, everything outside? If we are not overhauling our Artillery inventory in a correct way like you mentioned then it means only half of our equipment is battle ready!@Signalian are we here underestimating our capabilities or is that true?
> 
> And what means that here than: "Symbol of Pride"
> 
> View attachment 471189


HIT would touch the systems that are responsible for the movement of the equipment and barrel, e.g thr Drive train, Engine, different Cylinders, tracks etc. 
Upgradation as some mentioned from A2 to A5 is not done.
Battle worthiness is not an issue, heck we even made old 3.7 Inch, 25 Pdr and old 8 Inch Hows when they had to raise an FCN Artillery Battery for FATA. 
The problem is not with upkeep but with lack of innovation, Arty lacks this as compared to other arms.
local Inovations for armour are done at HIT, for Sigs at NRTC for Inf at different places, for Airforce it's at PAC, but for Arty it doesn't exist and we are at mercy of other countries for our needs.
So in short
We have ability of maintaining our inventory, not innovation.
Plan on writing an IRP on the subj.

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## Chimgathar

Thank You Italy, Keep em coming.


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## Bhimsen Pachawry

If I am right, Italy is buying new SPG and hence giving the older SPG to Pakistan. What is the price of each of the SPG? How will Pakistan get the spare parts for it as the SPG is made in USA?

I have read the entire thread but none have answered about the cost.



CHI RULES said:


> India has already deployed T90s and old Tanks as artillery guns near LOC and even MBTS deployed at Chinese border with Brahmos.



India is using T55 and T72 at LoC. You may have got confused as T72 appears like T90. These guns are direct line of sight ire,not artillery. Artillery is indirect fire and ires in excess of 20km.


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## Bossman

Shiji said:


> HIT would touch the systems that are responsible for the movement of the equipment and barrel, e.g thr Drive train, Engine, different Cylinders, tracks etc.
> Upgradation as some mentioned from A2 to A5 is not done.
> Battle worthiness is not an issue, heck we even made old 3.7 Inch, 25 Pdr and old 8 Inch Hows when they had to raise an FCN Artillery Battery for FATA.
> The problem is not with upkeep but with lack of innovation, Arty lacks this as compared to other arms.
> local Inovations for armour are done at HIT, for Sigs at NRTC for Inf at different places, for Airforce it's at PAC, but for Arty it doesn't exist and we are at mercy of other countries for our needs.
> So in short
> We have ability of maintaining our inventory, not innovation.
> Plan on writing an IRP on the subj.


There is enough innovation going on for example the old 37mm twin barrel ack ack guns have been automated and can be linked to laser range finders and radars. All artillary units are now equippped with locally developed ballistic computers including GPS and much more.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Put all these towards Afghanistan

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## Shiji

Bossman said:


> There is enough innovation going on for example the old 37mm twin barrel ack ack guns have been automated and can be linked to laser range finders and radars. All artillary units are now equippped with locally developed ballistic computers including GPS and much more.


The 37 mm Ack Ack is Air Defense and that too very basic. 
And for the second point of Artillery Control system, Nope that's not correct sorry.

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## CHI RULES

Bhimsen Pachawry said:


> If I am right, Italy is buying new SPG and hence giving the older SPG to Pakistan. What is the price of each of the SPG? How will Pakistan get the spare parts for it as the SPG is made in USA?
> 
> I have read the entire thread but none have answered about the cost.
> 
> 
> 
> India is using T55 and T72 at LoC. You may have got confused as T72 appears like T90. These guns are direct line of sight ire,not artillery. Artillery is indirect fire and ires in excess of 20km.


I have given source of my statement.


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## Bhimsen Pachawry

CHI RULES said:


> I have given source of my statement.


Yes, I have seen that. Indian army has confirmed T55 guns and T72 tanks officially. T90 tanks were not confirmed by India. Since T72 looks like T90, it is possible that Pakistan may have gotten confused.


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## Haris Mansoor

Path-Finder said:


> I am not sure but wisdom leads me to believe, Things on all of these supposed outdated guns can be updated. From Barrel to all forms of mechanical and electronic systems from possibly Turkey's indigenous systems they use on their own SP guns.
> 
> 'If' that is the case then it is big bang for small buck.


If everything can be updated, why not develop indigenous.


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## Path-Finder

Haris Mansoor said:


> If everything can be updated, why not develop indigenous.



are you familiar with the phrase why reinvent the wheel? Pakistan operates them and knows the system inside out there for adding more systems will be easy for logistics and training. 

Upgrading them will be cheaper than obtaining a brand new system which takes time to adopt and become mainstream.

But having said that Pakistan is still looking for wheel based SP guns which will complement this. Pakistan has made its money go further.

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## MastanKhan

Path-Finder said:


> are you familiar with the phrase why reinvent the wheel? Pakistan operates them and knows the system inside out there for adding more systems will be easy for logistics and training.
> 
> Upgrading them will be cheaper than obtaining a brand new system which takes time to adopt and become mainstream.
> 
> But having said that Pakistan is still looking for wheel based SP guns which will complement this. Pakistan has made its money go further.




Hi,

Thank you---.

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## BATMAN

Path-Finder said:


> Upgrading them will be cheaper than obtaining a brand new system which takes time to adopt and become mainstream.


Agree on later count, but how are you so sure that upgrade will be cheaper?
I guess, guns would be requiring overhaul along upgrade and the cost totally depend on the current condition of the guns.
It's an old design, Italy is replacing them with new design. If upgrade was enough, Italy would have gone for it. 
IMO, Unless it's an fighter jet, buying old frames of guns with a plan to refurbish them is waste of time, money & resources.
It's like buying an old car.... same model of car can have different mileage and condition from good to worst. 
So concluding that the deal is cost wise a profitable deal or not is hard to say.

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## fatman17

Blue Marlin said:


> this is the same company that makes the aw-139 for pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these guns were probably a sweetener


Then Leonardo will upgrade the SPs.


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## fatman17

Shiji said:


> Where, if I may kindly ask?


Definitely not in my garage. Seriously at POF

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## Shiji

fatman17 said:


> Definitely not in my garage. Seriously at POF


Wish it were possible, to be honest.


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## khanasifm

M-109L

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3729.html

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## Gryphon

41x M109A4+ SP howitzers have arrived in Karachi on 7 December 2017. Ex Canadian army pcs donated to Pakistan.

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## Muhammad Omar

Why are we buying old SP howitzers from all over the world????


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## Shiji

Muhammad Omar said:


> Why are we buying old SP howitzers from all over the world????


Because they are still almost brand new and meet our criteria.

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## Reichsmarschall

Shiji said:


> Because they are still almost brand new and meet our criteria.


what is the range of these guns?

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## Bossman

Bossman said:


> There is enough innovation going on for example the old 37mm twin barrel ack ack guns have been automated and can be linked to laser range finders and radars. All artillary units are now equippped with locally developed ballistic computers including GPS and much more.





Shiji said:


> The 37 mm Ack Ack is Air Defense and that too very basic.
> And for the second point of Artillery Control system, Nope that's not correct sorry.



Do you think I don’t know that ack ack are air defence guns? The upgrade brings similar capabilities as Oerlikons to WW2 vintage design. If that is not innovation, what is? Go check GIDS website for artillary computers. Even 25 pounder batteries from the 50s are using them.

Even a intertial navigation system for artillary system is underdevelopment. This is what Paladin has.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Reichsmarschall said:


> what is the range of these guns?


24 km
With Base Bleed/Assisted Ammo over 30km

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## Basel

CHI RULES said:


> India has already deployed T90s and old Tanks as artillery guns near LOC and even MBTS deployed at Chinese border with Brahmos.



PA have deployed ATGMs which are cheaper and more lethal.

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## Shiji

Reichsmarschall said:


> what is the range of these guns?


Being 39 Cal would mean Rg around 17-18 kms on Normal Charge, 24 with Charge Super and 30 with RAP.


Bossman said:


> Do you think I don’t know that ack ack are air defence guns? Go check GIDs website for artillary computers.
> 
> Even a intertial navigation system for artillary system is underdevelopment.


Website vs on ground is different, please don't ask me how I know ON ground.
Edit: 25 Pdrs using them?
Funny.

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## Reichsmarschall

Shiji said:


> Being 39 Cal would mean Rg around 17-18 kms on Normal Charge, 24 with Charge Super and 30 with RAP.


what will be range if guns are upgraded to 50 cal?


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## Shiji

Reichsmarschall said:


> what will be range if guns are upgraded to 50 cal?


52 Cal*
39 Cal is Nato standard why would you wanna make it 52?
Plus WHERE would you?


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## Path-Finder

Shiji said:


> Being 39 Cal would mean Rg around 17-18 kms on Normal Charge, 24 with Charge Super and 30 with RAP.
> 
> Website vs on ground is different, please don't ask me how I know ON ground.
> Edit: 25 Pdrs using them?
> Funny.



The 25 pounders were seen in a documentary being deployed on western front, last year some time!

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## Shiji

Path-Finder said:


> The 25 pounders were seen in a documentary being deployed on western front, last year some time!


Yes, they are deployed there, and the artillery calculator AFDCD is being used, but not for the 25 Pdr for that the calc is the old FX 880, you are confusing AFDCD and AFCS
Former is a computing device and the later a control system. 
The later is what you mean and NO it has not been deployed yet.

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## Reichsmarschall

Shiji said:


> 52 Cal*
> 39 Cal is Nato standard why would you wanna make it 52?
> Plus WHERE would you?


i dont understand these caliber things can you please define it in simplest words?

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## Shiji

In simple terms It is the length of Barrel measured in the diameter of the barrel.
A 39 Cal 155 mm gun would mean a shorter barrel,
A 52 Cal 155 mm gun would mean a longer barrel.

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## Reichsmarschall

Shiji said:


> View attachment 471659
> 
> In simple terms It is the length of Barrel measured in the diameter of the barrel.
> A 39 Cal 155 mm gun would mean a shorter barrel,
> A 52 Cal 155 mm gun would mean a longer barrel.


then why 52 Cal longer barrel guns have more range?


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## Shiji

Reichsmarschall said:


> then why 52 Cal longer barrel guns have more range?


You answered your own question, because of the longer barrel, which enables more proppelent energy to be transferred to the projectile and also stabilises the round more as it travels for a longer duration in the barrel.

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> _M109L_
> 
> Under a contract dated 30 June 2015, Pakistan Army is receiving surplus M109L self propelled howitzers from Italy since last year. The data has been collected from pak.eximtradeinfo.com website, which maintains an import database. The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.
> 
> Deliveries reported:
> 
> 10x M109L arrived on 13 May 2017
> 
> 9x M109L arrived on 27 May 2017
> 
> 20x M109L arrived on 6 November 2017
> 
> 26x M109L arrived on 28 March 2018





Gryphon said:


> 41x M109A4+ SP howitzers have arrived in Karachi on 7 December 2017. Ex Canadian army pcs donated to Pakistan.



so it mean during the period from May-2017 till March-2018 we have added *106 *M109 sph

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## Path-Finder

Shiji said:


> Yes, they are deployed there, and the artillery calculator AFDCD is being used, but not for the 25 Pdr for that the calc is the old FX 880, you are confusing AFDCD and AFCS
> Former is a computing device and the later a control system.
> The later is what you mean and NO it has not been deployed yet.



Does that mean there is a dire need for more 105mm Guns because deploying 25 pounder guns is a little medievil by today's standard! Or is it because of the QF factor they are still faster to fire than anything else out there.

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## Shiji

Path-Finder said:


> Does that mean there is a dire need for more 105mm Guns because deploying 25 pounder guns is a little medievil by today's standard! Or is it because of the QF factor they are still faster to fire than anything else out there.


You make due with what you have, something is better than nothing, heck even seen some post somewhere using the 3.7 inch How.
It's not the QF factor, it just that they are there and aval and ammo is aval in excess.

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## Black Bird

Shiji said:


> Because they are still almost brand new and meet our criteria.


Free main to hm Zehar bhe le lain


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## Zulfiqar

HRK said:


> so it mean during the period from May-2017 till March-2018 we have added *106 *M109 sph




If that is true then with this addition we now have 115+150+106= 371 SPAs. That is like 20 regiments or roughly six brigades. 

That is one SPH for every 8 KM of indian border (apart from other pieces). But artillery concentration is key and PA just added nearly two brigades worth of it.

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## Gryphon

Zulfiqar said:


> If that is true then with this addition we now have 115+150+106= 371 SPAs. That is like 20 regiments or roughly six brigades.
> 
> That is one SPH for every 8 KM of indian border (apart from other pieces). But artillery concentration is key and PA just added nearly two brigades worth of it.



152 M109A2
115 M109A5
65 M109L + 1 M109L (arrived on 4 April 2016)
41 M109A4+

So total 374.

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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> Agree on later count, but how are you so sure that upgrade will be cheaper?
> I guess, guns would be requiring overhaul along upgrade and the cost totally depend on the current condition of the guns.
> It's an old design, Italy is replacing them with new design. If upgrade was enough, Italy would have gone for it.
> IMO, Unless it's an fighter jet, buying old frames of guns with a plan to refurbish them is waste of time, money & resources.
> It's like buying an old car.... same model of car can have different mileage and condition from good to worst.
> So concluding that the deal is cost wise a profitable deal or not is hard to say.




Hi,

Every nation has its own period of utility---after that time has passed---it looks for new items---time to write off business expense---.

Immediate delivery means that you have the product now---which means that there is a multiplier effect to your strength---.

If you order new---it takes time and extra funds---. Now you get them at 10 cents on the dollar---but with the immediate fire power of the dollar---.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Gryphon said:


> 152 M109A2
> 115 M109A5
> 65 M109L
> 41 M109A4+
> 
> So total 373.


if i m not mistaken we also operate some 60 M110 SPHs

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> 152 M109A2



I think all M109A2 were upgraded to A5 standards



Dr. Strangelove said:


> if i m not mistaken we also operate some 60 M110 SPHs


I think we have 40 or 50 M110

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## Dr. Strangelove

HRK said:


> I think all M109A2 were upgraded to A5 standards
> 
> 
> I think we have 40 or 50 M110


this takes the total number of SPHs to 413-423 thats a lot of fire power PA might be betting for 500+ by 2020

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## waz

That's a large amount of firepower, which boosts Pakistan's already excellent mobile artillery.



Gryphon said:


> _M109L_
> 
> Under a contract dated 30 June 2015, Pakistan Army is receiving surplus M109L self propelled howitzers from Italy since last year. The data has been collected from pak.eximtradeinfo.com website, which maintains an import database. The exporter has been reported as *Leonardo Defence Systems*.
> 
> Deliveries reported:
> 
> 10x M109L arrived on 13 May 2017
> 
> 9x M109L arrived on 27 May 2017
> 
> 20x M109L arrived on 6 November 2017
> 
> 26x M109L arrived on 28 March 2018



Bro do you know how to edit wiki and update the artillery page on the Pakistan army?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Pakistan_Army#Artillery

I tried and increased the number to 332? Or am I wrong here? I'm not sure how to do the rest i.e. they came from Italy and the reference.

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## Bossman

Shiji said:


> Being 39 Cal would mean Rg around 17-18 kms on Normal Charge, 24 with Charge Super and 30 with RAP.
> 
> Website vs on ground is different, please don't ask me how I know ON ground.
> Edit: 25 Pdrs using them?
> Funny.



It is easy to bullshit on the internet.


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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Every nation has its own period of utility---after that time has passed---it looks for new items---time to write off business expense---.
> 
> Immediate delivery means that you have the product now---which means that there is a multiplier effect to your strength---.
> 
> If you order new---it takes time and extra funds---. Now you get them at 10 cents on the dollar---but with the immediate fire power of the dollar---.



This part i agree, but those machines will have refurbishment cost and than upgrade cost.
Imagine of 500 man hours are spent on each machine before bringing them to service and if we estimate on average $500 /hour cost = $250'000 is only the service cost.
Required hardware would cost extra... and again i estimate only one new engine would cost $50'000 /machine.
I wonder, if it would be more clever to buy from HIT or abroad.


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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> This part i agree, but those machines will have refurbishment cost and than upgrade cost.
> Imagine of 500 man hours are spent on each machine before bringing them to service and if we estimate on average $500 /hour cost = $250'000 is only the service cost.
> Required hardware would cost extra... and again i estimate only one new engine would cost $50'000 /machine.
> I wonder, if it would be more clever to buy from HIT or abroad.



Hi,

Out labor rate is between 1-5 dollars an hour---so the man hour cost is between 5000-25000---. The engine will be rebuilt---for around 15-20000 dollars---.

So---for less than 100-250 thousand dollars you have a fine refurbished item +-.

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## Inception-06

Gryphon said:


> 41x M109A4+ SP howitzers have arrived in Karachi on 7 December 2017. Ex Canadian army pcs donated to Pakistan.



What are Pcs ?

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## Shiji

Bossman said:


> It is easy to bullshit on the internet.


Want to add anything constructive instead of waste or air and bandwidth?


Ulla said:


> What are Pcs ?


Pieces as in Artillery pieces.

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## Kompromat

Smart purchase with plenty of upgrade options.

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## Thorough Pro

We don't pay our Army engineers by the hour, they are already getting the pay, so no additional labour cost.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Out labor rate is between 1-5 dollars an hour---so the man hour cost is between 5000-25000---. The engine will be rebuilt---for around 15-20000 dollars---.
> 
> So---for less than 100-250 thousand dollars you have a fine refurbished item +-.



Done, don't know how to add source though.



waz said:


> That's a large amount of firepower, which boost Pakistan's already excellent mobile artillery.
> 
> 
> 
> Bro do you know how to edit wiki and update the artillery page on the Pakistan army?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Pakistan_Army#Artillery
> 
> I tried and increased the number to 332? Or am I wrong here? I'm not sure how to do the rest i.e. they came from Italy and the reference.

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## Aamir Hussain

There should not be any argument as to the economics of the acquisition. I don't see any harm in that. 

We have in the past got M113 APC to the tune of more than 1.5K from both US and Italy. We have gotten Maxxpro in hundreds from US and if we go back in the past, there other such acquisitions where we paid nothing but the transport costs and overnight formed brigades out of nothing!

The fact of the matter is that PA does not have the money to equip its rank and file as it wants it to be equipped. Therefore, we do with what we have and upgrade them as and when we have the funds available or buy excess items from the arms bazaar and slowly refrub. and upgrade them to today's standards. 

The acquisition of SPG's clearly indicates the desire to form more Armored Brigades .... towards a more mobile and more flexible field force. 

The obvious upgrades to these recent acquisitions would be an overall refurb. (US does it to its M1 Abrams extensively,even today in Alabama) refitting of a new barrel and recoil system, FCS upgrade, engine upgrade and transmission and suspension including re-tiring of the road wheels etc. I would think that comms. suit will also be changed including Battlefield Management Suit will be brought in line with what PA is operating with today. GPS System upgrade will also be done in line with those that are being done with T-80 UD's and other AFV's

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## Gryphon

Dr. Strangelove said:


> if i m not mistaken we also operate some 60 M110 SPHs



40 M110A2.



HRK said:


> I think all M109A2 were upgraded to A5 standards



PA M109A2's were never upgraded to M109A5.

The major difference between the two is the gun: M109A2 uses the M185 howitzer while the M109A5 uses the improved M284 howitzer. Both are 39 caliber guns and it isn't economically feasible to replace one 39 cal. gun with another 39 cal. gun unless there is a substantial increase in range.
However, it is a totally different scenario if the 39 cal. gun is to be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall and others).



waz said:


> Bro do you know how to edit wiki and update the artillery page on the Pakistan army?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Pakistan_Army#Artillery
> 
> I tried and increased the number to 332? Or am I wrong here? I'm not sure how to do the rest i.e. they came from Italy and the reference.



Hi, I maintain this Wiki article. I have completed review of all sections of this page except helicopters/fixed wing aircraft/radars/ATGM's/engineering vehicles which is a work in progress.

Unfortunately, I can't update the numbers of M109 as there isn't a reliable source (news article/journal/book,etc) supporting this content. This thread is based on data generated on import logs and other sources, which is not easily verifiable for others.



Ulla said:


> What are Pcs ?



As Shiji said, its [artillery] pieces.

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## Cuirassier

Gryphon said:


> 40 M110A2.
> 
> 
> 
> PA M109A2's were never upgraded to M109A5.
> 
> The major difference between the two is the gun: M109A2 uses the M185 howitzer while the M109A5 uses the improved M284 howitzer. Both are 39 caliber guns and it isn't economically feasible to replace one 39 cal. gun with another 39 cal. gun unless there is a substantial increase in range.
> However, it is a totally different scenario if the 39 cal. gun is to be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall and others).
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I maintain this Wiki article. I have completed review of all sections of this page except helicopters/fixed wing aircraft/radars/ATGM's/engineering vehicles which is a work in progress.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't update the numbers of M109 as there isn't a reliable source (news article/journal/book,etc) supporting this content. This thread is based on data generated on import logs and other sources, which is not easily verifiable for others.
> 
> 
> 
> As Shiji said, its [artillery] pieces.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Pakistan_border_skirmishes_(2016–present)
Who maintains this page? Full of horsecr*p every other day. Indian editors constantly meddle with figures.

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## BATMAN

Thorough Pro said:


> We don't pay our Army engineers by the hour, they are already getting the pay, so no additional labour cost.



You seems to be clueless about the basic concept of calculating /estimating labor cost.

Salary is not the only cost /head there's building cost, utilities cost, cost of management, cost of risks, cost of administrative staff, cost of IT, cost of furniture, cost of vehicles,..... and many other costs.

An employee who withdraw $1000 /month, may cost employer $2000.
Hence, in a 40 hours week system, per hour cost comes out $12.5 /hr.
In Pakistan average salary of (productive) engineer is $2000 and they cost employer $3000+

In functioning organization, Engineers /non-Engineers are not sitting idle, they are always doing some work and recording their hours in that account.
When they change project /task, they record hours they spent on different account.

When you have more than one project /task, you distribute your time accordingly.
If there's no record of daily hours, how can one calculate the true cost of any business, and able to budget finances ?

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## Thorough Pro

If you say so, btw I was responding to your post where you mentioned "labour cost".
For your info I am a finance professional with 3 international certifications and 23 years of experience under my belt with multi billion dollar companies and Costing is my expertise.




BATMAN said:


> You seems to be clueless about the basic concept of calculating /estimating labor cost.
> 
> Salary is not the only cost /head there's building cost, utilities cost, cost of management, cost of risks, cost of administrative staff, cost of IT, cost of furniture, cost of vehicles,..... and many other costs.
> 
> An employee who withdraw $1000 /month, may cost employer $2000.
> Hence, in a 40 hours week system, per hour cost is comes out $12.5 /hr.
> In Pakistan average salary of (productive) engineer is $2000 and they cost employer $3000+
> 
> In functioning organization, Engineers /non-Engineers are not sitting idle, they are always doing some work and recording their hours in that account.
> When they change project /task, they record hours they spent on on different account.
> When you have more than one project /task, you distribute your time accordingly.
> If there's no record of daily hours, how can one calculate the true cost of any business, and able to budget finances ?

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## MZ-PDF

Great!


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## JPMM

Aamir Hussain said:


> There should not be any argument as to the economics of the acquisition. I don't see any harm in that.
> 
> We have in the past got M113 APC to the tune of more than 1.5K from both US and Italy. We have gotten Maxxpro in hundreds from US and if we go back in the past, there other such acquisitions where we paid nothing but the transport costs and overnight formed brigades out of nothing!
> 
> The fact of the matter is that PA does not have the money to equip its rank and file as it wants it to be equipped. Therefore, we do with what we have and upgrade them as and when we have the funds available or buy excess items from the arms bazaar and slowly refrub. and upgrade them to today's standards.
> 
> The acquisition of SPG's clearly indicates the desire to form more Armored Brigades .... towards a more mobile and more flexible field force.
> 
> The obvious upgrades to these recent acquisitions would be an overall refurb. (US does it to its M1 Abrams extensively,even today in Alabama) refitting of a new barrel and recoil system, FCS upgrade, engine upgrade and transmission and suspension including re-tiring of the road wheels etc. I would think that comms. suit will also be changed including Battlefield Management Suit will be brought in line with what PA is operating with today. GPS System upgrade will also be done in line with those that are being done with T-80 UD's and other AFV's



Last time they bought 115 M109A5, they formed two new Mechanized Divisions (54 M109 each)
Guess what!!!!

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## JPMM

Back in MAR 2015 I had allready told in Post 935 of Pakistan Army News

"Just read in a Italian site that Pakistan is interested not only in VCC1/2 but also B1 Centauro and M109L"

Visualizza articoli per tag: Surplus Difesa

And what about B1 Centauro?

There is a link to the business here
https://pak.eximtradeinfo.com/items/m109l-howitzer

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## YeBeWarned

Horus said:


> Smart purchase with plenty of upgrade options.



you said in some thread that Pakistan will be getting these from a friendly country , few months back .. is that the same possible purchase you were talking about ?


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## HAIDER

Now here is important fact , every country in the world is now pulling in old weapon from there storage, modify and use them. Example, US has using Brancos OV-10 for anti terror operation. An excellent and low cost platform made in during Vietnam war , cannibalizing old M1A1 tanks and reusing them. US is very low in arm production for its own armed force consumption. As far as Pakistan concern , we have low defence budget compare to other countries , but since last many years military has made smart move, they are buying good old platform and modified according to there need. Like years ago US Gen said about use of modern weapon in war scenario ... We have all type of excellent weapon , but end of day we use guns and machine guns to neutralize our enemy ...it was about Iraq war.
If A ML109 chassis is good condition, then it has lot of room for modification. Like US recently updated the same platform with latest M777 gun. Then, why we spend millions of dollar on brand new order, when same platform already available dirt cheap.
Few months back talking to Rtrd military officer , why all of sudden Pak army use retired Chinese tanks and hundreds of Iraqi tanks gifted by US army to Pakistan after Kuwait invasion. He reply, we were almost going retired them, but after inspection we realized they are very good machine and in excellent condition with lot of life, so they search and come to conclusion this tanks has to modify these machines , just like German 125 smooth bore (if i am not wrong) . Now this same tank on frontline against war in terror ....

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> 40 M110A2.
> 
> 
> 
> PA M109A2's were never upgraded to M109A5.
> 
> The major difference between the two is the gun: M109A2 uses the M185 howitzer while the M109A5 uses the improved M284 howitzer. Both are 39 caliber guns and it isn't economically feasible to replace one 39 cal. gun with another 39 cal. gun unless there is a substantial increase in range.
> However, it is a totally different scenario if the 39 cal. gun is to be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall and others).


Continuing where you left off...

*M-109A2*

The M109A2 is a new production weapon which incorporated 27 mid-life improvements to the M109A1. The improvements provide for increased Reliability, Availability, and Maintainability (RAM) and safety characteristics as well as enhanced operational capabilities. 
The M109A2 has the long tube M185 cannon installed in the M178 gun mount. The cab has a rear bustle rack which provides an increased ammunition stowage capacity. It has an all weather ballistic shield mounted over the panoramic telescope; counterbalanced travel lock and provisions for mounting the M140 alignment device.

M-109A4 is closely linked with M-109A5, so mentioning M-109A4.

*M-109A4*
The M109A4 is a M109A2/A3 with modifications which include the addition of Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical/ Reliability, Availability, and Maintainability (NBC/RAM) product improvement kits. The driver and cannoneer number 2 have an air purifier and two heaters mounted in the hull. An air purifier and four heaters are mounted in the cab for the rest of the crew. 
NBC Mission Oriented Protective Posture (MOPP) gear is stored in the new cannoneer seats and stowage boxes. The traversing mechanism operates with a hydraulic clutch in the M109A4 instead of using an electric clutch as in the traversing mechanism of the M109A2/A3 Howitzer. A clutch valve, with a manual override, provides for power traverse in the event of an electrical failure to the clutch valve solenoid. The M109A4 has two hydraulic filters mounted outside of the power pack. The M109A2/A3s have one internal hydraulic power pack filter. The M109A4 has a starter protection circuit with a combat override switch, to allow for emergency starting. The slave start receptacle has been moved from the battery compartment to the driver's compartment. The M109A2/A3 100 amp alternator has been replaced by a 180 amp alternator. 
Crew compartment subfloor drains have been added to provide for the drainage of DS2 used in the NBC decontamination process and provide for the drainage of excess water.

*M-109A5*
The M109A5 is a modified M109A4 with two major improvements: 
1.A new M284 Cannon and; 
2.a new M182 Gun Mount. 
These improvements provide the M109A5 with greater range and allow for sustained fire for prolonged periods of time.



Ulla said:


> What are Pcs ?


Buddy, just some information that i was expecting you to bring up, Ammo load for M-109 A2 and A5 is 34.



Gryphon said:


> 152 M109A2
> 115 M109A5
> 65 M109L + 1 M109L (arrived on 4 April 2016)
> 41 M109A4+
> 
> So total 374.



Some more information:

EFC Life of Cannon Tube of M-185 = 6375 Rounds. (Breech Assembly life is Original and *Two* retubings)
EFC Life of Cannon Tube of M-284 = 2650 Rounds. (Breech Assembly life is Original and *One* retubing)

EFC = Equivalent Full Charge

Unique rounds used by M-109 and their functionalities:

Anti-Armor Warfare:

a. *M-712 Round* : For engaging armored vehicles and emplacements.
The M712 projectile is guided to its target by a laser beam directed on the target from the laser designator and has five time and code switches set by the crew prior to firing.

b. *M-898 Round*: For top-attack of self-propelled artillery and armored combat vehicles.
The M898 projectile has millimeter-wave radar and infrared sensors to locate targets and provide countermeasure resistance. The warhead is an explosively formed penetrator designed for top-attack of self-propelled artillery and armored combat vehicles.

c. *M-741 and A1 Round*: Used to deliver high–explosive anti–tank mines in front of enemy armored force to deny or delay access to a particular area for a specific time period.

d. *M-718 and A1 Round*: Used to deliver nine high– explosive anti– tank mines in front of enemy armored force to deny or delay access to a particular area for a specific time period.

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## BATMAN

Where should these guns be stationed ideally?

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## Basel

BATMAN said:


> Where should these guns be stationed ideally?



Sindh and Punjab areas.

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## fatman17

Recently, as many as 42 retired M109 SPA units are acquired from Canada. These M109 will be dismantled and use as source of spares for supporting existing M109 fleet of Pakistan Army. https://t.co/QI0s2GaaKa

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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> Recently, as many as 42 retired M109 SPA units are acquired from Canada. These M109 will be dismantled and use as source of spares for supporting existing M109 fleet of Pakistan Army. https://t.co/QI0s2GaaKa
> View attachment 472307


A4 standard.



BATMAN said:


> Where should these guns be stationed ideally?


Sialkot to Nagarparkar.


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## BATMAN

I think ideal positioning of these howitzer should be along side fenced border of Afghanistan.


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## Kompromat

Yes. More coming. 



Starlord said:


> you said in some thread that Pakistan will be getting these from a friendly country , few months back .. is that the same possible purchase you were talking about ?

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## Signalian

BATMAN said:


> I think ideal positioning of these howitzer should be along side fenced border of Afghanistan.




have a look at that terrain.


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## BATMAN

Signalian said:


> have a look at that terrain.



Explain... what's wrong with terrain?

IMO, its not about terrain, its about nature of threat we face from Afghanistan.
Ambushes by hordes of wild animals of Northern Alliance aka ANA, whom we can successfully scare away with gun fire.
Indian side we should deal with drone strikes.


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## Path-Finder

BATMAN said:


> Explain... what's wrong with terrain?
> 
> IMO, its not about terrain, its about nature of threat we face from Afghanistan.
> Ambushes by hordes of wild animals of Northern Alliance aka ANA, whom we can successfully scare away with gun fire.
> Indian side we should deal with drone strikes.



these guns will be used with advancing armor! Not border east or west.


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## BATMAN

Path-Finder said:


> these guns will be used with advancing armor! Not border east or west.



These can be used anywhere by the policy makers, but the armchairs should give their opinion with some logical argument.

Without logic, i can say locate all outside my home, together with a squadron of jF-17.

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## Path-Finder

BATMAN said:


> These can be used anywhere by the policy makers, but the armchairs should give their opinion with some logical argument.
> 
> Without logic, i can say locate all outside my home, together with a squadron of jF-17.


bloody hell!


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## Signalian

BATMAN said:


> Explain... what's wrong with terrain?
> 
> IMO, its not about terrain, its about nature of threat we face from Afghanistan.
> Ambushes by hordes of wild animals of Northern Alliance aka ANA, whom we can successfully scare away with gun fire.
> Indian side we should deal with drone strikes.



Most of the terrain along the border with Afghanistan is mountainous, especially going north where Northern Alliance has control. Traversing this terrain is easy by foot or air support. Light vehicles can be used but not in all places. Guns towed behind trucks are suitable for this terrain, every artillery gun is effective when deployed correctly be it 105mm or 155mm. The nature of warfare here is mobile at rare places only, not all, as the adversary is also ill equipped and under strength and uses unconventional techniques, like tunnels and caves in mountains to cross border. Heavy Armor can be used but at a few places and ambushes can be easily placed there. Surveillance drones and QRF on light helicopters (3-6 troops) for chasing and engaging militants spotted on mountain and hilly terrain can be best used here.

Regarding scaring away with gunfire, let me narrate the experience faced by PA troops when fighting Afghans/Pushtoon insurgents in FATA and Baluch insurgents in Baluchistan.
The Afghans/Pushtoons have a mentality relative to caliber of the gun. If they are using bigger caliber than PA, they will put up a fight. If they have a smaller caliber, they will still not get scared away infact try to cause maximum damage before backing off. When using IED's they will remain at place to see the damage caused and then go to hiding place. During this process of checking the damage caused, they will leave a safe place to come ahead and then engaged by PA in combat. 
The Baluch dont care, they will never bother to check damage caused by IED or ambush, they will detonate IED and flee. 

The ANA is another story. Due to the nature of their training by NATO, their level of confidence keeps coming and going. The commanders will be confident but the troops will be de-moralized (amounting to desertions). The ANA also possesses 122mm, 130mm and 155mm artillery as well as MLRS BM-21. India is trying to open another LOC here for Pakistan so that the pressure on Kashmir LOC is lifted and Pakistan gets engaged on both borders actively. 

The border with India is plains, hills and desert where armored forces can be effectively used as the nature of warfare is more mobile, keeping in mind adversary's weaponry. M-109 is self propelled and tracked like tanks and its used with armored formations to keep pace with advancing tanks.

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## BATMAN

Path-Finder said:


> bloody hell!



I think, situation with Indian border has been changed due to new technological advancements.
This is how Pak army was able to free some of its troops, to be posted at Afghan border.
You will see a followup by Indian army as well, they will also stop spending on heavy weight equipment, and would start procuring drones etc. instead of Tanks and SU etc.


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## Signalian

BATMAN said:


> I think, situation with Indian border has been changed due to new technological advancements.
> *This is how Pak army was able to free some of its troops, to be posted at Afghan border.*
> You will see a followup by Indian army as well, they will also stop spending on heavy weight equipment, and would start procuring drones etc. instead of Tanks and SU etc.




FC is posted on Afghan border and FC formations have doubled.
PA units are on rotation from eastern border and sent back after completing tenure. 4 PA div's are constantly posted on Western side of Pakistan with Afghanistan in peacetime., plus another Infantry Div HQ to be raised in Swat.

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## BATMAN

Signalian said:


> M-109 is self propelled and tracked like tanks and its used with armored formations to keep pace with advancing tanks.


I agree to your above quoted point.
I still believe, we need a long range gun at our fortresses along side fenced border. not mobile though.
I don't agree to your classification of terrorists in Balochistan and Pashtoon areas.
All terrorist organizations have one source, so is the source of IED.
I don't even differentiate between the IED's of Iraq used against US troops and those used against Pak troops in Pakistan.

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## Signalian

BATMAN said:


> I agree to your above quoted point.
> I still believe, we need a long range gun at our fortresses along side fenced border. not mobile though.
> I don't agree to your classification of terrorists in Balochistan and Pashtoon areas.
> All terrorist organizations have one source, so is the source of IED.
> I don't even differentiate between the IED's of Iraq used against US troops and those used against Pak troops in Pakistan.


That's ok if you dont agree.
The topic is about M-109, not insurgency. There are towed howitzers and guns in inventory which can be used on Afghanistan border. Mortars are in use too.

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## Mentee

BATMAN said:


> it's called operating behind enemy lines.
> Ï'm on a Shia forum.. where slandering and use of foul language is part of culture and upbringing.
> All you can do is jump from a high rise... and I'll make sure, Batman shall continue to haunt even your generations to come.


Iam not a Shia yiu bathead. And youve been "mushrikfied" as you chose to be part of a Shia forum by your own free will. Go repent and cry to redeem this evil deed.

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## BATMAN

Mentee said:


> Iam not a Shia yiu bathead. And youve been "mushrikfied" as you chose to be part of a Shia forum by your own free will. Go repent and cry to redeem this evil deed.



I know Shia language very well, cursing, foul language, slandering is their basic give aways.
Just like you used foul language in your previous post and now labled my as Mushrik. 
Other give away is they are allowed to use their skills only on defence.pk.
I don't give a dime if you call your brothers from ANA or call Asif Ali Zardari.



Signalian said:


> That's ok if you dont agree.
> The topic is about M-109, not insurgency.



That's why, i didn't write the details on the points which i don't agree.

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## Signalian

BATMAN said:


> That's why, i didn't write the details on the points which i don't agree.


You brought it up so you should have clarified, anyways up to you.

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## BATMAN

Signalian said:


> You brought it up so you should have clarified, anyways up to you.



I'm referring to the underlined subject, which was introduced only by you.


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## Signalian

BATMAN said:


> I'm referring to the underlined subject, which was introduced only by you.


You mentioned Northern Alliance, ANA and M-109 deployment on Afghan border, its linked up with insurgency on Afghan border(FATA and Baluchistan).

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## Mentee

BATMAN said:


> I know Shia language very well, cursing, foul language, slandering is their basic give aways.
> Just like you used foul language in your previous post and now labled my as Mushrik.
> Other give away is they are allowed to use their skills only on defence.pk.
> I don't give a dime if you call your brothers from ANA or call Asif Ali Zardari.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why, i didn't write the details on the points which i don't agree.



Listen batman, many a times I saw you insulting shias for no reason Thought yiu are another sect zealot . So had some fun poking yiu.
But then your obsession kept on getting worse-----.so, this use of cynical comments from my side.

What I've noticed is that you are pretty intelligent but there's something annoying you real hard. Hence, you advocate the mass slaughtering of a particular community, in between the lines.

That's not a healthy trend. If there's anything screwing your mind I suggest you tell it to friends or famiky or even me to get relief and lighten up your conscience. You need to talk batman - - - - - - -.

after reading yuur post, here's what I did.









The above liquid is some real peach nectar. Hope I could also get you a glass of it but anyway a toast for batman

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## fatman17

Signalian said:


> A4 standard.
> 
> 
> Sialkot to Nagarparkar.


These are for spares


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mentee said:


> Listen batman, many a times I saw you insulting shias for no reason Thought yiu are another sect zealot . So had some fun poking yiu.
> But then your obsession kept on getting worse-----.so, this use of cynical comments from my side.
> 
> What I've noticed is that you are pretty intelligent but there's something annoying you real hard. Hence, you advocate the mass slaughtering of a particular community, in between the lines.
> 
> That's not a healthy trend. If there's anything screwing your mind I suggest you tell it to friends or famiky or even me to get relief and lighten up your conscience. You need to talk batman - - - - - - -.
> 
> after reading yuur post, here's what I did.
> 
> 
> View attachment 472398
> 
> 
> 
> The above liquid is some real peach nectar. Hope I could also get you a glass of it but anyway a toast for batman



Childhood trauma.


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## Mentee

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Childhood trauma.


Couldn't be any Shia . never heard of anything kinky going on in their seminaries as they keep it natural. So - - - - - - - leave it man. Waysay is it true that batman nearly got ambushed by some folks wearing black ?

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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> These are for spares


Too many standards are difficult to inculcate and maintain.

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## Suff Shikan

BATMAN said:


> I know Shia language very well, cursing, foul language, slandering is their basic give aways.
> Just like you used foul language in your previous post and now labled my as Mushrik.
> Other give away is they are allowed to use their skills only on defence.pk.
> I don't give a dime if you call your brothers from ANA or call Asif Ali Zardari.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why, i didn't write the details on the points which i don't agree.



I thought many times that BATMAN is shia , sorry mate


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## HAIDER

BATMAN said:


> I know Shia language very well, cursing, foul language, slandering is their basic give aways.
> Just like you used foul language in your previous post and now labled my as Mushrik.
> Other give away is they are allowed to use their skills only on defence.pk.
> I don't give a dime if you call your brothers from ANA or call Asif Ali Zardari.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why, i didn't write the details on the points which i don't agree.


ok, shia are bad and worst creature on this earh, but let's go back to the topic. This is best deal and all wealthy countries are still using the frame and spending millions of dollar for the modification. Here is most recent example
M109 Paladin upgrade BAE 





US army suppose to retire all A10 last year, but they change the plan and will be using them for next 10 years . Due to lots of reason, beside funding.

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## Mentee

Suff Shikan said:


> I thought many times that BATMAN is shia , sorry mate


Shooooooo cute Chalo ab Paaari b dy do aik usay

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## Basel

Horus said:


> Yes. More coming.



Hmm it means PA is silently adding more punch to tackle cold start type misadventure if taken by India in future.

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## somebozo

BATMAN said:


> I know Shia language very well, cursing, foul language, slandering is their basic give aways.
> Just like you used foul language in your previous post and now labled my as Mushrik.
> Other give away is they are allowed to use their skills only on defence.pk.
> I don't give a dime if you call your brothers from ANA or call Asif Ali Zardari.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why, i didn't write the details on the points which i don't agree.



Chill bro..lets not earn a ban..!


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## Safriz

bananarepublic said:


> Doesn't Pakistan upgrade the m109 locally at HIT ??


At Malir in Karachi i guess


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## BATMAN

Mentee said:


> Shooooooo cute Chalo ab Paaari b dy do aik usay



So you have deleted your post now?


somebozo said:


> Chill bro..lets not earn a ban..!



Ban my foot... that's the daily show what the run here. They can intimidate me with their foul language, slandering and fatwas. 
It is administration who is playing here... they are mafia.
There never will be a record me starting anything... actually i ignore most of their slandering and personal attacks. 
I know, they are upset with me raising questions on the lies which they sell around.

This was the fitna post and later he declared me Mushrik.
If they don't have stamina then they should not start... i will kick their diseased mouth even harder from now.


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## Kompromat

Should buy all of them from Italy. Upgrade them to A5 standards including a 52 cal gun. Maybe get the FCS from Turkish SPH. We need SPH in strong numbers to maintain edge over the Indian Army.

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## Mentee

BATMAN said:


> So you have deleted your post now?
> 
> 
> Ban my foot... that's the daily show what the run here. They can intimidate me with their foul language, slandering and fatwas.
> It is administration who is playing here... they are mafia.
> There never will be a record me starting anything... actually i ignore most of their slandering and personal attacks.
> I know, they are upset with me raising questions on the lies which they sell around.
> 
> This was the fitna post and later he declared me Mushrik.
> If they don't have stamina then they should not start... i will kick their diseased mouth even harder from now.
> View attachment 472664


Its still there for you to see. Batman you need to introspect a bit. There's a fury blazing inside your heart which has turned you psychotic. Shias are the indeginous sons of soil and are here to stay like the sunnis/sufis. I suggest you to control your demons and put em on a leash .

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## Signalian

If Canadian M-109A4 are not counted then it's 333 M-109 [if Italians delivered 66 M-109L ]

That's 18 regiments roughly of M-109.

40 M-110 are 3 Regiments of 12 each.

21 regiments in total. 

3+3 for Armoured Divs
3+3 for Mech Divs

7 for IABG's.

2 can be Corps assets.

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## AR KHAN

Italy is also delivering Puma 6X6 to Pakistan.


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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> If Canadian M-109A4 are not counted then it's 333 M-109 [if Italians delivered 66 M-109L ]
> 
> That's 18 regiments roughly of M-109.
> 
> 40 M-110 are 3 Regiments of 12 each.
> 
> 21 regiments in total.
> 
> 3+3 for Armoured Divs
> 3+3 for Mech Divs
> 
> 7 for IABG's.
> 
> 2 can be Corps assets.



M109L has been inducted, confirmed news.

Don't know where this 41x M109A4+ for spares rumour has come from but yes, they have not entered service (yet).
M109 spares are still easily available and few are being produced within Pakistan. So, why will Pakistan cannibalize the Canadian guns?

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## JPMM

Signalian said:


> If Canadian M-109A4 are not counted then it's 333 M-109 [if Italians delivered 66 M-109L ]
> 
> That's 18 regiments roughly of M-109.
> 
> 40 M-110 are 3 Regiments of 12 each.
> 
> 21 regiments in total.
> 
> 3+3 for Armoured Divs
> 3+3 for Mech Divs
> 
> 7 for IABG's.
> 
> 2 can be Corps assets.



Currently the 40 M110A2 are used in 2 SP Heavy Regs of 18 guns each
-1 Regiment in each of the Ist & IInd Strike Corps Artillery Brigades

The 152 M109A2 are used in 8 SP Medium Regs of 18 guns each
-3 Regiments in each of the 1st & 6th Armoured Divisions
-1 Regiment in each of the Ist & IInd Strike Corps Artillery Brigades

The 115 M109A5 are used in 6 SP Medium Regs of 18 guns each
-3 Regiments in each of the 25th & 26th Mechanized Divisions

As for M109L, I have no clue, they my be forming a new Mech Div!

Thanks

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## Signalian

JPMM said:


> Currently the 40 M110A2 are used in 2 SP Heavy Regs of 18 guns each
> -1 Regiment in each of the Ist & IInd Strike Corps Artillery Brigades


Heavy are 12 each in 3 regiments. I II and V Corps.

Possibly one of the armored brigades doesnt have SP Regt, could be with XI Corps. 



> The 152 M109A2 are used in 8 SP Medium Regs of 18 guns each
> -3 Regiments in each of the 1st & 6th Armoured Divisions
> -1 Regiment in each of the Ist & IInd Strike Corps Artillery Brigades
> 
> The 115 M109A5 are used in 6 SP Medium Regs of 18 guns each
> -3 Regiments in each of the 25th & 26th Mechanized Divisions
> 
> As for M109L, I have no clue, they my be forming a new Mech Div!
> 
> Thanks


M-109's deployed in IABG's.

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## JPMM

Signalian said:


> Heavy are 12 each in 3 regiments. I II and V Corps.
> 
> Possibly one of the armored brigades doesnt have SP Regt, could be with XI Corps.
> 
> 
> M-109's deployed in IABG's.



Sorry but I dont agree, its just my opinion!
There are 9 IABG, were do you have M109 for these? You dont!
Thanks

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## BATMAN

Mentee said:


> Its still there for you to see. Batman you need to introspect a bit. There's a fury blazing inside your heart which has turned you psychotic. Shias are the indeginous sons of soil and are here to stay like the sunnis/sufis. I suggest you to control your demons and put em on a leash .



I will not forgive anyone who will use foul language and personal attacks. You mafia mistook my ignorance to your personal attacks.
Since you are allied with administration, doesn't mean you can intimidate me like you intimidate a common in streets of Pakistan.
I will you your true self.... dare to come again with your majossi learning.


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## Mentee

BATMAN said:


> I will not forgive anyone who will use foul language and personal attacks. You mafia mistook my ignorance to your personal attacks.
> Since you are allied with administration, doesn't mean you can intimidate me like you intimidate a common in streets of Pakistan.
> I will you your true self.... dare to come again with your majossi learning.


 Your brain could get you a lots of $$$ just put it on auction as folks love to bid for relatively unused stuff.

And you don't know shitt about intimidation. Cutting open the bellies of pregnant ladies and throwing their infants off the cliff infront of em just coz they happen to be Shia? 

That's frigiding intimidation right in your face.

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> Possibly one of the armored brigades doesnt have SP Regt, could be with XI Corps.



I have compiled a list of Pakistani IABG's as seen below

8 IABG - Kharian (I Corps)

19 IABG - Gujranwala (XXX Corps)

3 IABG - Chunian (IV Corps)

10 IABG - Bahawalpur (XXXI Corps)

2 IABG - probably near Karachi (V Corps)

14 IABG - probably near Multan (II Corps)

12 IABG - location unknown

42 IABG - location unknown

And, I retain my earlier assessment that XI and XII Corps don't have Independent Armoured Brigade Groups.



JPMM said:


> Sorry but I dont agree, its just my opinion!
> There are 9 IABG, were do you have M109 for these? You dont!
> Thanks



Some IABG's have M109 regiments, one such being the 39 SP Medium regiment based at Chunian. Italian M109L's will form more regiments.

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## HAIDER

Horus said:


> Should buy all of them from Italy. Upgrade them to A5 standards including a 52 cal gun. Maybe get the FCS from Turkish SPH. We need SPH in strong numbers to maintain edge over the Indian Army.


For some reason PA seems not interested in Turkish SPH. Only few brought in for testing, later nothing adopted. Foreign components and price might be the major reason for not adopting from Turks. Because majority of Turkish weapons are European parts and design. Pakistan defence industry is far better then all muslim countries, because in limited money Pak army has to match its arch rival Indian defence.It is fact if Pakistan get a platform dirt cheap or free then why not modify with foreign cannon or compnent, after all US recently modified its own M109 to A7 standards.
A6 standard Paladin





A7 standard

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## Cuirassier

Gryphon said:


> I have compiled a list of Pakistani IABG's as seen below
> 
> 8 IABG - Kharian (I Corps)
> 
> 19 IABG - Gujranwala (XXX Corps)
> 
> 3 IABG - Chunian (IV Corps)
> 
> 10 IABG - Bahawalpur (XXXI Corps)
> 
> 2 IABG - probably near Karachi (V Corps)
> 
> 14 IABG - probably near Multan (II Corps)
> 
> 12 IABG - location unknown
> 
> 42 IABG - location unknown
> 
> And, I retain my earlier assessment that XI and XII Corps don't have Independent Armoured Brigade Groups.
> 
> 
> 
> Some IABG's have M109 regiments, one such being the 39 SP Medium regiment based at Chunian. Italian M109L's will form more regiments.


IABGs are with arty, inf and armd brigs?
IV Corps ind Arty Brig is HQ in Chunian, rest might be there too then.


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## Cuirassier

TF141 said:


> IABGs are with arty, inf and armd brigs?
> IV Corps ind Arty Brig is HQ in Chunian, rest might be there too then.


Oh i guess you are relating to the independent armoured brigades. Sorry


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## Aamir Hussain

As far as I know, IBAG's were formed to forward deploy Armored Elements in smaller units to counter Cold Start.

These were designed to be self contained, highly mobile units to engage the enemy in blocking actions around man made obstacles in our desert areas. Essentially, give time to bring tactical nukes into action.

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## JPMM

It seems to me that Independent Brigades (Infantry and Armoured), including those atached to Divisions as extra, have their Artillery Battery and not Regiment. Regiments being employd in Artillery Brigades (Army, Corps and Divisional)
I will give you two exemples, the Oto-Melara M56 105mm howitzer and the Chimese 85mm gun, they are not employd by Regiments
Thanks


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## Path-Finder

HAIDER said:


> For some reason PA seems not interested in Turkish SPH. Only few brought in for testing, later nothing adopted. Foreign components and price might be the major reason for not adopting from Turks. Because majority of Turkish weapons are European parts and design. Pakistan defence industry is far better then all muslim countries, because in limited money Pak army has to match its arch rival Indian defence.It is fact if Pakistan get a platform dirt cheap or free then why not modify with foreign cannon or compnent, after all US recently modified its own M109 to A7 standards.
> A6 standard Paladin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A7 standard



Turkish SP is based on South Korean SP which is a rework of the Paladin!


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## Aamir Hussain

As far as I know Oto-Melara-56,105mm is a Pack How. mostly used in mountainous terrain therefore it would not form part of a regiment but assigned to smaller units depending upon indirect fire support to front line units from established fire bases.

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## JPMM

Signalian said:


> Heavy are 12 each in 3 regiments. I II and V Corps.
> 
> Possibly one of the armored brigades doesnt have SP Regt, could be with XI Corps.
> 
> 
> M-109's deployed in IABG's.



Sorry, you were right!
Just discover that PA SP Medium Regiments have 12x SP 155mm & 6x towed 130mm
That justifies the extra Regiments in IABG
But I dont like the idea of mixing SP and towed guns.
When I started in the Portuguese Army, my Brigade had 18x towed M101A1 105mm & 6x SP M109A2 155mm. It was a sh**t.
The M109 were allways stressed and the M101 were allways too late. The time required to install and move towed guns is no good for mobile warfare. Its a bad idea.
Thanks

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## Gryphon

Another batch of 25x M109L arrived in Pakistan on 17 August 2018.

With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L howitzers Pakistan has received reached 91.

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## JPMM

Gryphon said:


> Another batch of 25x M109L arrived in Pakistan on 17 August 2018.
> 
> With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L howitzers Pakistan has received reached 91.



So +7 Regiments...


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## khanasifm

JPMM said:


> So +7 Regiments...



Typically a heavy/medium artillary regiment has between 18-24 guns or 3-4 batteries with 6 guns per battery


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## wali87

lol Humari govt. bhi har jaga mufta lagane ki kohshish main rehti hai.


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## Signalian

Field artillery units spend 10 years in peace zone, 10 years in A zone and 10 years B zone.

In Pakistan;
Peace zone = cantonment.
A zone = Active war zone, currently western front.
B zone = LOC or Siachen.

If a unit is not deployed to A zone, its rotates between B zone i.e. between Siachen and LOC to complete its tenure out of cantonment.



Aamir Hussain said:


> As far as I know, IBAG's were formed to forward deploy Armored Elements in smaller units to counter Cold Start.
> 
> These were designed to be self contained, highly mobile units to engage the enemy in blocking actions around man made obstacles in our desert areas. Essentially, give time to bring tactical nukes into action.


IABG's were formed pre-1965, when cold start did not exist. 

6th Armoured Div was 100th IABG in 1965.
8th IABG saw combat in 1971.



Aamir Hussain said:


> As far as I know Oto-Melara-56,105mm is a Pack How. mostly used in mountainous terrain therefore it would not form part of a regiment but assigned to smaller units depending upon indirect fire support to front line units from established fire bases.


Oto-Melara 56 (105mm) are part of artillery regiments (units of battalion size), which are deployed in LOC and at other places too. Such units are deployed in terrains which are 5 km or more walk in mountains from road accessible areas and mules are used for cargo transportation on tracks. Such Areas of deployment are un-accessible by vehicles.

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## khanasifm

155 x 39 vs 45 vs 52 caliber guns some one posted in another forum 

5 2-calibre refers to the barrel length, so it is slightly more than 1 meter longer than at 45-calibre barrel (155mm x 7 for the difference in length between the two, roughly). All else being equal, this means the propellant has more space and thus more time to combust and for the resulting gas to expand before the projectile leaves the tube, imparting more energy to the projectile, resulting in longer range. (Depending on a variety of factors, you could say an additional 10 to 20km, though I am sure someone will chime in with exact figures for specific projectile/charge combinations.)

The disadvantages? There aren't many, in my opinion, but apparently they are significant enough that the US can't manage to adopt a 52-calibre weapon... or even a 45-calibre one, for that matter (IIRC, both the M109A6 and M777 are 39 calibres, and currently the NLOS-C will be 30). A longer tube can be more difficult to manuever and transport, it adds a significant amount of weight to the system (since you also need a more robust carriage /mount, recoil system, etc, to cope with the more powerful recoil). Depending on your design, and what propellant you fire, the tube may wear out and need to be replaced sooner, if you make a habit of firing the higher charges used to attain that extra range (I've read of experimental designs that needed to be replaced after as few as a thousand rounds, which a tube of artillery in a high-tempo war could fire in less than 48 hours).

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## Signalian

JPMM said:


> Sorry, you were right!
> Just discover that PA SP Medium Regiments have 12x SP 155mm & 6x towed 130mm
> That justifies the extra Regiments in IABG
> But I dont like the idea of mixing SP and towed guns.
> When I started in the Portuguese Army, my Brigade had 18x towed M101A1 105mm & 6x SP M109A2 155mm. It was a sh**t.
> The M109 were allways stressed and the M101 were allways too late. The time required to install and move towed guns is no good for mobile warfare. Its a bad idea.
> Thanks


If you are or were part of artillery, you would know about rapid deployment of towed guns.

The amount of calculations done in mapping and firing is the main task; keeping in view movement of earth along its axis, gases in chamber and gases in different layers of the earth's atmosphere, the wind direction and speed at different heights from the ground, the temperature of the atmosphere and the gun (breech) etc.
and the role of FOO/FAO is even complex.

Artillery officers are a different breed of officers, they make pin point calculations and get into details of all affairs they encounter. You are very lucky if you have a junior artillery officer in your staff, as he will take care of all details for you however you will have a tough time if you have a senior artillery officer as he will want details of everything from you.

This is why the word of even a 2nd-Lt from Artillery Corps carries more weightage than that of an infantry officer, because the 2nd Lt will be speaking from calculations , his word will be based on logic from the book. He doesn't have ammunition to expend freely, every round counts and time is always of the essence.

Musharraf was an artillery officer, when handling civilian affairs like railways, irrigation etc, he would get into details of everything and then plan out a structure for solving an issue. He would start by generating history report and move on from that date wise. I am not his fan, I am just stating how an artillery officer tackles things.

The way i see your posts @JPMM , you like going in details just like an artillery man should

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## Gryphon

wali87 said:


> lol Humari govt. bhi har jaga mufta lagane ki kohshish main rehti hai.



These have been purchased from surplus stocks, and before delivery undergo refurbishment at one of Leonardo's facilities. Not free.

From what I see,

152 M109A2 (8 regiments) are divided between 2x Armd. Div. (6 reg) and 2x Strike Corps IABG (2 reg).

115 M109A5 (6 regiments) are with 2x Mech. Div.

91 M109L (5 regiments) will probably go to 5x IABG.

So, thats M109 for 7x IABG, with 1x IABG yet to be equipped.

It is rumoured Pakistan is to receive the final batch, but Army intends to double M109L inventory. This could result in purchase of roughly 100 additional pcs.

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## HAIDER

wali87 said:


> lol Humari govt. bhi har jaga mufta lagane ki kohshish main rehti hai.


Lot of left over scatter in NATO countries and they have no use or they don't want to spend money to dispose off. They inform interested parties, and seems Pakistan army enlisted on all those programs . That's how they end up in Pakistan hand. Because when they dispose off any equipment, they also get rid of parts and or any other leftover. Pakistan pay the whole transportation cost. Just like after Iraq-US first war, Pakistan got 200 Iraqi tanks for free, only paid the cost of transportation.

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## Signalian

HAIDER said:


> Just like after Iraq-US first war, Pakistan got 200 Iraqi tanks for free, only paid the cost of transportation.


which ones?


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## Super Falcon

pakistan army has these guns already why buy same gun with little upgradation why cant we buy next generation gun with better fire power and better surviability rate


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## GriffinsRule

Super Falcon said:


> pakistan army has these guns already why buy same gun with little upgradation why cant we buy next generation gun with better fire power and better surviability rate


Price...


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## HAIDER

Signalian said:


> which ones?


If I am not wrong those were T59 , if you search from your source.


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## Dazzler

HAIDER said:


> Lot of left over scatter in NATO countries and they have no use or they don't want to spend money to dispose off. They inform interested parties, and seems Pakistan army enlisted on all those programs . That's how they end up in Pakistan hand. Because when they dispose off any equipment, they also get rid of parts and or any other leftover. Pakistan pay the whole transportation cost. Just like after Iraq-US first war, Pakistan got 200 Iraqi tanks for free, only paid the cost of transportation.



They are not buying scrap, rather Italian modified/ upgraded pieces with either equal or in some cases, better performances than a baseline A2 model. The M-109L has several mods as explained here earlier and the price is too good to be true. They dont need it, but we do, thanks to the ever volatile situation in the region. They may come in handy in case someone tries to implement the cold start. 

Also. since PA is already hunting for a new arty system, inducting capable and dirt cheap M-109Ls in numbers may be the best stop gap option available. 

As for Iraqi tanks, never heard that story. Care to explain which ones made way here as Iraqi armour had questionable performance as well as specs.

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## HAIDER

Dazzler said:


> They are not buying scrap, rather Italian modified/ upgraded pieces with either equal or in some cases, better performances than a baseline A2 model. The M-109L has several mods as explained here earlier and the price is too good to be true. They dont need it, but we do, thanks to the ever volatile situation in the region. They may come in handy in case someone tries to implement the cold start.
> 
> Also. since PA is already hunting for a new arty system, inducting capable and dirt cheap M-109Ls in numbers may be the best stop gap option available.
> 
> As for Iraqi tanks, never heard that story. Care to explain which ones made way here as Iraqi armour had questionable performance as well as specs.


Yes, I mention this in my previous post. But here is a view of one of Italian army boneyard. Where a good working equipment is rest for rust.


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## Super Falcon

what price i dont understand what you want to say by price


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## Mujahid Memon

HAIDER said:


>


What is the difference bw this and a tank?


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## HAIDER

Mujahid Memon said:


> What is the difference bw this and a tank?


Self Propelled Howitzer is an evolution of the Artillery piece. Most arty pieces are stationary guns (Usually 120 to 155mm for NATO countries, and 152mm seems the right number for warsaw pact) mounted on carts of sorts. These are used to provide indirect fire (I.E. firing over a hill, or from behind the "frontlines" to support armor and infantry attacks) They're effective for killing tanks and infantry and buildings from the rear, but on the front they are vulnerable to just about 
The Self Propelled Howitzer is everything its name implies, its one of the aforementioned artillery pieces, with engines and either wheels or tracks. This was a WWII invention, as normal Artillery pieces could not keep up with the Blitzkrieg offensives and support their advances. By making it mobile, they allow the artillery piece to keep up with the armored formations as they move through the landscape, bringing along heavier fire power.
Make no mistake, they are not fast, maneuverable, as well armored as a modern MBT. THey are considered a different school of vehicle, artillery, which almost all modern commanders will keep in the rear of an attack away from enemies, and use to harass enemy strong points, I.E. A mechanized devisions HQ or laager, an enemy bunker or trench line, or a city where the enemy is taking cover.

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## JPMM

Signalian said:


> If you are or were part of artillery, you would know about rapid deployment of towed guns.
> 
> The amount of calculations done in mapping and firing is the main task; keeping in view movement of earth along its axis, gases in chamber and gases in different layers of the earth's atmosphere, the wind direction and speed at different heights from the ground, the temperature of the atmosphere and the gun (breech) etc.
> and the role of FOO/FAO is even complex.
> 
> Artillery officers are a different breed of officers, they make pin point calculations and get into details of all affairs they encounter. You are very lucky if you have a junior artillery officer in your staff, as he will take care of all details for you however you will have a tough time if you have a senior artillery officer as he will want details of everything from you.
> 
> This is why the word of even a 2nd-Lt from Artillery Corps carries more weightage than that of an infantry officer, because the 2nd Lt will be speaking from calculations , his word will be based on logic from the book. He doesn't have ammunition to expend freely, every round counts and time is always of the essence.
> 
> Musharraf was an artillery officer, when handling civilian affairs like railways, irrigation etc, he would get into details of everything and then plan out a structure for solving an issue. He would start by generating history report and move on from that date wise. I am not his fan, I am just stating how an artillery officer tackles things.
> 
> The way i see your posts @JPMM , you like going in details just like an artillery man should



No. I spent 3 years in Infantry Battalion on Azores Islands and 2 years in the 4th Cavalry Regiment (M60A3TTS at that tyme). I was the equivalente to your REME detachment.
In Portugal we have an old say "God save us from our own artillery, and we will take care of the enemy"
Thanks

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## fitpOsitive

HAIDER said:


> Yes, I mention this in my previous post. But here is a view of one of Italian army boneyard. Where a good working equipment is rest for rust.


This is what happens with military equipment. People suffered, while govt was paying weapon dealers. This equipment now of no use, while whatever happened to people is irreversible. 
That's why I always speak againt wars. They are nothing but useless for common people.

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## JPMM

khanasifm said:


> Typically a heavy/medium artillary regiment has between 18-24 guns or 3-4 batteries with 6 guns per battery


I was roung before!
12x M109+6 towed 130mm
12x M198+6 towed 130mm​Thanks​


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## Dazzler

HAIDER said:


> Yes, I mention this in my previous post. But here is a view of one of Italian army boneyard. Where a good working equipment is rest for rust.



It seems you are having a hard time in differentiating between surplus stocks comprising of "running" equipment and those stored in the boneyard to be scrapped.


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## Path-Finder

HAIDER said:


> Yes, I mention this in my previous post. But here is a view of one of Italian army boneyard. Where a good working equipment is rest for rust.



These M60 Tanks can be brought back to life and upgraded like Turkey has done. They have potential.


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## JPMM

Dazzler said:


> It seems you are having a hard time in differentiating between surplus stocks comprising of "running" equipment and those stored in the boneyard to be scrapped.


Sometimes the difference is not big. Take a look at Golra
The M48A5 are "stored in the boneyard to be scraped" side-by-side with T69IIMP that were "running" and were modified to COIN operations for FC.

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## Dazzler

JPMM said:


> Sometimes the difference is not big. Take a look at Golra
> The M48A5 are "stored in the boneyard to be scraped" side-by-side with T69IIMP that were "running" and were modified to COIN operations for FC.



Those "sometimes" are exceptions and should be taken as such. We may not see the M-47/48As reemployed in the mechanized/ armoured corps. The 69IIMPs, despite age, were in decent condition and picked as is with some mods applied for COINOPS. The gun was downgraded from 1-5mm L7 to 100mm.

Been to Golra twice in the last decade and has some interesting conversations.

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## HAIDER

Dazzler said:


> It seems you are having a hard time in differentiating between surplus stocks comprising of "running" equipment and those stored in the boneyard to be scrapped.


Here interesting news from Italian newspaper

_L’Espresso is reporting

*that the Italian army has started to decommission and dispose of a large part of their surplus armor inventory. The article notes that unlike some other European countries, for nearly twenty years Italy has not released any tanks removed from service. Many of these vehicles are stored in the rice fields near Lenta, an area with contains more than 3,000 tanks and APCs. Italy has started to sell or scrap this massive collection of vehicles, said to be the largest concentration of non-operating tanks in the world. The article notes that some vehicles will be given to friendly countries, and many will be auctioned off. Included in the collection are hundreds of Leopard I MBTs, M113 APCs, M-109 SPGs and Centauro Wheeled AFVs . It is reported that both Pakistan and Jordan are in negotiations to purchase some of these vehicles.  To read the L”Espresso article and photo gallery*, click here (in Italian).

Italian Leo 1





Wheeled AFV_

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## Aamir Hussain

these are leopard 1's


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## HAIDER

Aamir Hussain said:


> these are leopard 1's


Leopard 1A5 in service with the Italian Army nowadays. 120 surplus turrets were purchased from the Bundeswehr and served to upgrade 200 A2s hulls purchased in the meantime. The first batch of Leopard 1s (200) was delivered between 1971 and 1972, followed by two batches built by OTO Melara under licence, the first 400 Leopard 1s in 1974-80, and second of 120 build in 1980-1983. In addition OTO Melara assembled 28 Pionierleopard AEV in 1985 (plus 12 produced in Germany) and 64 Bibers AVLBs. All Leopards were gradually retired in 2003 to 2008, leaving only the Ariete in service.





A3 standard





You guys take ??. All retired now . May be few in service.

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> Another batch of 25x M109L arrived in Pakistan on 17 August 2018.
> 
> With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L howitzers Pakistan has received reached 91.


132 surplus M-109L were on offer by Italy out of which till now we have received 91 (1+10+9+20+26+25=91) so we might hope to receive *41 more *M-109L _(132-91=41) _




source



HAIDER said:


> Leopard 1A5 in service with the Italian Army nowadays. 120 surplus turrets were purchased from the Bundeswehr and served to upgrade 200 A2s hulls purchased in the meantime. The first batch of Leopard 1s (200) was delivered between 1971 and 1972, followed by two batches built by OTO Melara under licence, the first 400 Leopard 1s in 1974-80, and second of 120 build in 1980-1983. In addition OTO Melara assembled 28 Pionierleopard AEV in 1985 (plus 12 produced in Germany) and 64 Bibers AVLBs. All Leopards were gradually retired in 2003 to 2008, leaving only the Ariete in service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A3 standard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You guys take ??. All retired now . May be few in service.


I don't think PA would be interested in Leopard-1 tanks

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## Gryphon

HRK said:


> 132 surplus M-109L were on offer by Italy out of which till now we have received 91 (1+10+9+20+26+25=91) so we might hope to receive *41 more *M-109L _(132-91=41) _
> View attachment 493096
> 
> source



Their entire inventory is up for sale, i.e., 250+ units. Pak should get all of them, equip every IABG & IMBG, and the new Mech. Div. planned for XXX Corps.


En route Pakistan (2017)

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## HRK

@Gryphon ...


> May 1, 2018 on the Pakistani military Internet forum *defence.pk* *Gryphon *shared an interesting find. The database for Pakistan's import pak.eximtradeinfo.com revealed the supply of self-propelled howitzers Oto-Melara M109L in 2017-2018. from the Italian supplier Leonardo Defense Systems under the contract of 30.06.2015. 10 units of the M109L were delivered on May 13, 2017, May 9 - 27, 2017, November 20 - 6, 2017 (this delivery was spotted by the Italian paparazzi in September 2017. ) and March 26 - 28, 2018. A total of 65 units for today. Whether the March party was final or the deliveries will be continued is still unknown.
> 
> https://altyn73.livejournal.com/1322797.html

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## wali87

r4


Gryphon said:


> These have been purchased from surplus stocks, and before delivery undergo refurbishment at one of Leonardo's facilities. Not free.
> 
> From what I see,
> 
> 152 M109A2 (8 regiments) are divided between 2x Armd. Div. (6 reg) and 2x Strike Corps IABG (2 reg).
> 
> 115 M109A5 (6 regiments) are with 2x Mech. Div.
> 
> 91 M109L (5 regiments) will probably go to 5x IABG.
> 
> So, thats M109 for 7x IABG, with 1x IABG yet to be equipped.
> 
> It is rumoured Pakistan is to receive the final batch, but Army intends to double M109L inventory. This could result in purchase of roughly 100 additional pcs.


i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.

I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.

They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.

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## MastanKhan

wali87 said:


> r4
> 
> i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.
> 
> I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.
> 
> They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.



Hi,

Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.

It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.

And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.

When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?

These BIG GUNS last for decades---the gun barrels can be replaced---systems and sensors upgraded as well.

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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.
> 
> It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.
> 
> And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.
> 
> When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?
> 
> These BIG GUNS last for decades---the gun barrels can be replaced---systems and sensors upgraded as well.


Actually time after time these countries has to go for NATO standard and they have to retire certain weapon after certain period of time. As you know in last NATO conference Trump was angry about allies weapon upgrades . Where they suppose to spend 2 percent of there GDP for upgrade , but they spent far less and US was taking all brunt to keep there standard according to NATO requirement.

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## wali87

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.
> 
> It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.
> 
> And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.
> 
> When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?


AOA

Interesting and valid point sir regarding the preservation of domestic industry. Agreed. However i personally don’t consider our country as poor as people portray it to be. Poverty is prevelant in almost every country in the world. But a country with a GDP of 300 billion USD is certainly not poor despite the deficit. But that’s a different debate.

Outdated, the meaning is in the term itself sir. I could list the differences between variants A2 to A7 but judging from your number of posts and seniority, I feel you already know that.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.
> 
> It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.
> 
> And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.
> 
> When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?
> 
> These BIG GUNS last for decades---the gun barrels can be replaced---systems and sensors upgraded as well.


I'd also take note of the fact that in the West, the private sector industries have a vested interest in new equipment purchases - i.e. it keeps their businesses going. However, seeing how scale has become very difficult to achieve, the West itself has largely moved to the model of sticking to one core platform for many decades (e.g. Leopard 2).

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## niaz

wali87 said:


> r4
> 
> i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.
> 
> I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.
> 
> They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.



Old weapons do not automatically translate into “Obsolete”. Some old weapon systems remain as effective today as when these were first introduced. There are quite a few weapons designed more than 50 years ago which are still in use by the US Army. For example, the M2 Browning 0.50 calibre HMG has been is in continuous service since 1933. Carl Gustav recoilless rifle entered service in 1948 and M 240, the 7.62 MG has been in service since 1977.

M109L may not be as effective as the M109 A6 Paladin, nevertheless, the M109L with the 39 calibre barrel (a range of about 24 km) is still a very capable SP gun system. Especially in the face of Pakistan’s budgetary constraints; acquisition of 131 M109L guns means a substantial increase in her artillery power.

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## HAIDER

niaz said:


> Old weapons do not automatically translate into “Obsolete”. Some old weapon systems remain as effective today as when these were first introduced. There are quite a few weapons designed more than 50 years ago which are still in use by the US Army. For example, the M2 Browning 0.50 calibre HMG has been is in continuous service since 1933. Carl Gustav recoilless rifle entered service in 1948 and M 240, the 7.62 MG has been in service since 1977.
> 
> M109L may not be as effective as the M109 A6 Paladin, nevertheless, the M109L with the 39 calibre barrel (a range of about 24 km) is still a very capable SP gun system. Especially in the face of Pakistan’s budgetary constraints; acquisition of 131 M109L guns means a substantial increase in her artillery power.


A retired US Gen said after second Iraq war , end of day we are using same old conventional weapons which we been using for decades . It means how weapon is friendly with soldiers. It's friendship .

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## MastanKhan

niaz said:


> acquisition of 131 M109L guns means a substantial increase in her artillery power.



Hi,

I don't know the numbers of heavy guns in a division---18 guns to a battalion---.

That would make it close to an artillery division---if I am not wrong---.

That is a massive increase in fire power in a very short time frame---.



wali87 said:


> AOA
> 
> Interesting and valid point sir regarding the preservation of domestic industry. Agreed. However i personally don’t consider our country as poor as people portray it to be. Poverty is prevelant in almost every country in the world. But a country with a GDP of 300 billion USD is certainly not poor despite the deficit. But that’s a different debate.
> 
> Outdated, the meaning is in the term itself sir. I could list the differences between variants A2 to A7 but judging from your number of posts and seniority, I feel you already know that.



Hi,

It is not about "consideration"---it is poor---.

The howitzers we are getting are not obsolete---.

An instant division strength of B quality howitzers is a massive massive force multiplier---.

Only if Napoleone had a cavalry division instantly at waterloo---history would be different---.

16 F16's from Jordan provided an instant air force Division---.

What do you understand and how do you comprehend the sudden appearance of a Division of military at your disposal in the heat of the battle where there was no resources available---?

Military strengths are always placed against time and position---.

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## Gryphon

wali87 said:


> But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.



IA is buying the M777 lightweight howitzer for deployment along the mountainous border with China. Otherwise, there are not many takers for 39 caliber towed guns these days.

I find it inappropriate to compare M777 with M109 SPH. The latter can keep up with armour and provide indirect fire support.

Guided munitions are not restricted to M777, the M109 can fire those as well.

From: https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/download-en-uk/20180620191930/1434602522105.pdf

_For land platforms, *Vulcano can be fired from all variants of BAE Systems’ M777 and M109 howitzers* and the majority of weapons for allied militaries around the world. 

As the original equipment manufacturer of these major gun systems, BAE Systems and Leonardo are best suited to integrate Vulcano into these weapons.





_



wali87 said:


> I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.



As NATO is an alliance, Italy does not need 1:1 replacement for retired artillery pcs. There is emphasis on modern weapons, the old stuff is sold for peanuts.

The situation is totally different in the subcontinent, where Indian military expansion is forcing PA to raise more armoured regiments. For more armoured regiments, you need more SP howitzers.

For list of PA armoured regiments, see: http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/armoured-corps-badges/
Few more armoured regiments have been recently raised.

The most convenient way is to buy these surplus pcs - available in Europe & elsewhere in hundreds. You can equip the IABG's and IMBG's, new Mech. Div. and if some are still left, attach a battery of 6 SP guns with the armoured regiment of each Infantry division. All this instantly adds to your capabilities.

The infrastructure to maintain these already exists at HIT, some spares are being manufactured within Pakistan. There exist rebuild facilities, after 10 years or so, HIT can rebuild these guns again, so they become good 'as new'.

There is the option of upgrades in future, since you have them in sizable quantities, Pak can go for a major upgrade program like Al-Zarrar for the tanks. The 39 cal. gun can be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall). The electronics and software can be upgraded as well.



wali87 said:


> They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.



SP guns support the tanks, on the eastern border.

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## AMG_12

Gryphon said:


> *IA is buying the M777 lightweight howitzer for deployment along the mountainous border with China.* Otherwise, there are not many takers for 39 caliber towed guns these days.
> 
> I find it inappropriate to compare M777 with M109 SPH. The latter can keep up with armour and provide indirect fire support.
> 
> Guided munitions are not restricted to M777, the M109 can fire those as well.
> 
> From: https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/download-en-uk/20180620191930/1434602522105.pdf
> 
> _For land platforms, *Vulcano can be fired from all variants of BAE Systems’ M777 and M109 howitzers* and the majority of weapons for allied militaries around the world.
> 
> As the original equipment manufacturer of these major gun systems, BAE Systems and Leonardo are best suited to integrate Vulcano into these weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> As NATO is an alliance, Italy does not need 1:1 replacement for retired artillery pcs. There is emphasis on modern weapons, the old stuff is sold for peanuts.
> 
> The situation is totally different in the subcontinent, where Indian military expansion is forcing PA to raise more armoured regiments. For more armoured regiments, you need more SP howitzers.
> 
> For list of PA armoured regiments, see: http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/armoured-corps-badges/
> Few more armoured regiments have been recently raised.
> 
> The most convenient way is to buy these surplus pcs - available in Europe & elsewhere in hundreds. You can equip the IABG's and IMBG's, new Mech. Div. and if some are still left, attach a battery of 6 SP guns with the armoured regiment of each Infantry division. All this instantly adds to your capabilities.
> 
> The infrastructure to maintain these already exists at HIT, some spares are being manufactured within Pakistan. There exist rebuild facilities, after 10 years or so, HIT can rebuild these guns again, so they become good 'as new'.
> 
> There is the option of upgrades in future, since you have them in sizable quantities, Pak can go for a major upgrade program like Al-Zarrar for the tanks. The 39 cal. gun can be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall). The electronics and software can be upgraded as well.
> 
> 
> 
> SP guns support the tanks, on the eastern border.


m777s can be redeployed if things escalate with Pakistan. They are highly lethal and shouldn't be underestimated, just because India said it's for the Chinese front, doesn't mean it can't be redeployed.

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## Gryphon

Game.Invade said:


> m777s can be redeployed if things escalate with Pakistan. They are highly lethal and shouldn't be underestimated, just because India said it's for the Chinese front, doesn't mean it can't be redeployed.



I never said they can't be redeployed. With a stock of Excalibur, they are certainly lethal but this is true for the M198 & M109 as well.
M777's real advantage is forward deployment using sling equipment on a CH-47 Chinook.

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## Signalian

Range in SP systems is not that important as range in towed system. Its more important for SP to keep up with tanks, rather than SP taking on targets 50km+. The shoot and scoot is SP. How would range matter if tanks make contact with enemy 5km or 10 km or 15 km ahead. Tanks will always be moving and SP will never be far behind to lack Range by any means.

If its an SP gun with range of even 10 km firing range, induct it. Its wheels will compensate for range as well as counter battery fire.

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## Signalian

HAIDER said:


> A retired US Gen said after second Iraq war , end of day we are using same old conventional weapons which we been using for decades . It means how weapon is friendly with soldiers. It's friendship .


It means that no other good alternative was found.

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## Signalian

wali87 said:


> But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.


Firstly, M-109 is not outdated.
Secondly, Range is not the only factor that defines Artillery gun or acquisition of an artillery system.

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## Signalian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't know the numbers of heavy guns in a division---18 guns to a battalion---.


Heavy Artillery can also also be a Corps asset, not just division.

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## Incog_nito

Italy: 221 M109L (with an Italian made 155 mm/39 calibre barrel)[30]
I think PA will going to acquire all of these?

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## MastanKhan

Signalian said:


> Heavy Artillery can also also be a Corps asset, not just division.



Hi,

Yes---.

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## Gryphon

PA doesn't use HE ERFB-BB ammo for 155mm howitzers but now this gap could be filled with evaluation of few foreign offerings ongoing.

This ammo enables ranges exceeding those of POF manufactured M107, Nexter LU211 HB/BB and Poongsan K310 BB-DPICM projectiles.

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## khanasifm

IM Ozair said:


> Italy: 221 M109L (with an Italian made 155 mm/39 calibre barrel)[30]
> I think PA will going to acquire all of these?



That’s 12 new sp regiments ?? Each having 18 guns

The barrel of guns tanks /artillery usually have life of couple hundred rounds after which they needs replacement / refurbishment


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## MastanKhan

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8758

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## Arsalan

Path-Finder said:


> does that mean the new tender for SP guns is invalid? 65 SP guns is not bad I suppose these will be updated by Pakistan bit like Mirages are by PAF. Keeps cost down and arty numbers up.


That one, THAT interest was actually in wheeled SPH. These are tracked M109s, we have a lot of these in our inventory already so this really is a smart move. The only thing i miss in these, again, MRSI! THAT IS A MUST FOR MODERN ARTILLERY in my opinion. That is what make it a weapons of modern battlefield. For wheeled SPH we did looked into MRSI capable systems.



khanasifm said:


> That’s 12 new sp regiments ?? Each having 18 guns
> 
> The barrel of guns tanks /artillery usually have life of couple hundred rounds after which they needs replacement / refurbishment


1500-2000 rounds minimum


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## Ahmet Pasha

Hope we get some surplus EFT tranche I,IIs as well.


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## MilSpec

wali87 said:


> r4
> 
> i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.
> 
> I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.
> 
> They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.


Actually no, Pakistan SPH fleet is far more superior to anything India has, if you try to research how many SPH's Indian Army has, the number would make you roll on the floor laughing.


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## Signalian

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Hope we get some surplus EFT tranche I,IIs as well.


Wait for 50 years.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/qata...ver-mirage-2000-5s.440768/page-4#post-8498054



wali87 said:


> r4
> 
> i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.


M777 is not SP. Its Light weight so would be deployed in mountains probably. M109 can come across M777 if its deployed in IA RAPID's or if PA armored formations attack IA infantry formations with M777 in Arty Bde.

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## Gryphon

Pakistan Army IABG / IMBG list:

Confirmed Status/Location/Corps HQ:

2 IABG - Karachi (V Corps)
3 IABG - Chunian (4 Corps)
8 IABG - Kharian (1 Corps)
10 IABG - Bahawalpur (31 Corps)
14 IABG - Bahawalpur (31 Corps)
19 IABG - Gujranwala (30 Corps)
330 IABG - Karachi (V Corps)
44 IMBG - Bahawalpur (31 Corps)

Unknown status/location:

12 IABG - Karachi ? (merged with 25 Mech. Div. ?)
42 IABG - Multan ?
31 IMBG - Karachi ? (merged with 25 Mech. Div. ?)

No evidence 10, 11 and 12 Corps HQ's have any IABG / IMBG under their command.

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## CriticalThought

Gryphon said:


> Pakistan Army IABG / IMBG list:
> 
> Confirmed Status/Location/Corps HQ:
> 
> 2 IABG - Karachi (V Corps)
> 3 IABG - Chunian (4 Corps)
> 8 IABG - Kharian (1 Corps)
> 10 IABG - Bahawalpur (31 Corps)
> 14 IABG - Bahawalpur (31 Corps)
> 19 IABG - Gujranwala (30 Corps)
> 330 IABG - Karachi (V Corps)
> 44 IMBG - Bahawalpur (31 Corps)
> 
> Unknown status/location:
> 
> 12 IABG - Karachi ? (merged with 25 Mech. Div. ?)
> 42 IABG - Multan ?
> 31 IMBG - Karachi ? (merged with 25 Mech. Div. ?)
> 
> No evidence 10, 11 and 12 Corps HQ's have any IABG / IMBG under their command.



IABG includes infantry + armor + artillery + helis?

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## Gryphon

CriticalThought said:


> IABG includes infantry + armor + artillery + helis?



Each IABG has:

2x Armoured regiments (44 x 2 = 88 MBT)
1x Mechanized infantry battalion (50 APC)
1x SP Medium regiment (12-18 M109 howitzers)
1x SP AD regiment (12-18 RBS-70 mounted M113-type APCs)
Engineer (AVLB, ARV, etc) unit.
If the SP Medium / AD regiment is not present, assets can be provided from Corps Artillery or Corps Air Defence brigade.

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## Cuirassier

Gryphon said:


> Each IABG has:
> 
> 2x Armoured regiments (44 x 2 = 88 MBT)
> 1x Mechanized infantry battalion (50 APC)
> 1x SP Medium regiment (12-18 M109 howitzers)
> 1x SP AD regiment (12-18 RBS-70 mounted M113-type APCs)
> Engineer (AVLB, ARV, etc) unit.
> If the SP Medium / AD regiment is not present, assets can be provided from Corps Artillery or Corps Air Defence brigade.


I always thought the 101st Indpt Infantry Brigade in Bahawalpur Corps was actually the one getting mechanized with a MBT regt.


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## CriticalThought

Gryphon said:


> Each IABG has:
> 
> 2x Armoured regiments (44 x 2 = 88 MBT)
> 1x Mechanized infantry battalion (50 APC)
> 1x SP Medium regiment (12-18 M109 howitzers)
> 1x SP AD regiment (12-18 RBS-70 mounted M113-type APCs)
> Engineer (AVLB, ARV, etc) unit.
> If the SP Medium / AD regiment is not present, assets can be provided from Corps Artillery or Corps Air Defence brigade.



SubhanAllah!!!!! Awesome firepower!!! And this doesn't include MBRLs and Nasr yet! I only wish to see more attack helis, UCAVs, and UAVs. Hopefully, with some indigenous production of ATAK components, this will be realized, Insha Allah.

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## fatman17

Land Platforms

Leonardo testing upgraded M109L SP artillery system

Christopher F Foss, London - Jane's International Defence Review

29 January 2019

Italy’s Leonardo Defence Systems has developed and tested an upgrade package, aimed at the export market, for the M109L 155 mm self-propelled (SP) artillery system.

The standard M109L is fitted with an Italian-built 155 mm/39 calibre ordnance that is the equivalent to that fitted to the 155 mm FH-70 towed artillery system still deployed by the Italian Army.

The latest upgraded M109L has a 23 litre chamber and meets the Joint Ballistic Memorandum of Understanding (JBMOU). It is also fitted with a fume extractor and a new pepper box muzzle brake.

The recoil system and equilibrators were modified to take into account the increased recoil and weight of the 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance.

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## Gryphon

TF141 said:


> I always thought the 101st Indpt Infantry Brigade in Bahawalpur Corps was actually the one getting mechanized with a MBT regt.



This is the probable composition of PA's two mechanized divisions. The IABG's & IMBG's retain their independent character, but can operate together as a division under HQ Mech Div as per requirements. HQ Mech Div may also provide artillery/air defence assets from its respective brigades.

26 Mech. Div. (HQ) commands:
10 IABG - Bwp (2)
14 IABG - Bwp (2)
44 IMBG - Bwp (1)

25 Mech. Div. (HQ) commands:
12 IABG - Malir (2)
330 IABG - Malir (2)
31 IMBG - Malir (1)

I believe the first AK-1 regiment that came into existence 2 years back is part of a new IABG (not mentioned above) under HQ 31 Corps.



























*On 26 January 2019, Pakistan Army received a batch of 31x M109L SPH's. With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L's delivered so far reached 122.*


Pakistan Army M109 inventory:

152x M109A2

115x M109A5

122x M109L (more deliveries expected)

Total: 389


Possible distribution:

M109A2:
3 + 3 regiments in 2x Armd. Div. Arty brigades (18 x 6 = 108)
1 + 1 regiments in 2x IABG incl. 19 IABG (18 x 2 = 36)

M109A5:
3 + 3 regiments in 2x Mech. Div. Arty brigades (18 x 6 = 108)

M109L:
1 + 1 + 1 regiments in 3x IABG (18 x 3 = 54)

It is unclear how the remaining pcs will be distributed, but allocation of 1x battery (6 SPH) per Infantry Division armoured regiment is plausible.

@Path-Finder @HRK @Signalian @Starlord @CriticalThought @waz

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## HariPrasad

HAIDER said:


>



Looks good. Is it the same gun Pakistan is buying?


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## Gryphon

HariPrasad said:


> Looks good. Is it the same gun Pakistan is buying?



M109L variant en route Pakistan in 2017. PA may end up buying the entire Italian inventory. Leonardo will also offer the 52 cal. upgrade.

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> M109L variant en route Pakistan in 2017. PA may end up buying the entire Italian inventory. Leonardo will also offer the 52 cal. upgrade.



Pakistan has basically without spending too much made a huge impact by acquiring these guns. These guns are capable of massive upgrades and they won't need a long time for induction because infrastructure already exists.

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## YeBeWarned

Path-Finder said:


> Pakistan has basically without spending too much made a huge impact by acquiring these guns. These guns are capable of massive upgrades and they won't need a long time for induction because infrastructure already exists.



and provide much needed firepower to PA , they can fire and move to another location quick to prevent getting hurt by any return enemy Fire ..for that very reason i am big fan of SPH and MLRS .

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## Armchair

Wonder what condition the APCs are in and if they would make a good buy. Would really help restore the balance as India developed a massive imbalance vis-a-vis Pakistan on APCs and assorted armored vehicles.


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## Basel

Gryphon said:


> M109L variant en route Pakistan in 2017. PA may end up buying the entire Italian inventory. Leonardo will also offer the 52 cal. upgrade.



If they have life then 155/52 upgrade will boost PA SP capabilities allow greater range, hope we can use 100km Chinese PGM or similar on those.



Path-Finder said:


> Pakistan has basically without spending too much made a huge impact by acquiring these guns. These guns are capable of massive upgrades and they won't need a long time for induction because infrastructure already exists.



Good counter of K-9s firepower if upgraded to 155/52 level.

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## Signalian

Armchair said:


> Wonder what condition the APCs are in and if they would make a good buy. Would really help restore the balance as India developed a massive imbalance vis-a-vis Pakistan on APCs and assorted armored vehicles.


VCC M-113 was provided by Italy to PA.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> VCC M-113 was provided by Italy to PA.


pull. more pull.


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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> *On 26 January 2019, Pakistan Army received a batch of 31x M109L SPH's. With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L's delivered so far reached 122.*
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army M109 inventory:
> 
> 152x M109A2
> 
> 115x M109A5
> 
> 122x M109L (more deliveries expected)
> 
> Total: 389
> 
> 
> Possible distribution:
> 
> M109A2:
> 3 + 3 regiments in 2x Armd. Div. Arty brigades (18 x 6 = 108)
> 1 + 1 regiments in 2x IABG incl. 19 IABG (18 x 2 = 36)
> 
> M109A5:
> 3 + 3 regiments in 2x Mech. Div. Arty brigades (18 x 6 = 108)
> 
> M109L:
> 1 + 1 + 1 regiments in 3x IABG (18 x 3 = 54)
> 
> It is unclear how the remaining pcs will be distributed, but allocation of 1x battery (6 SPH) per Infantry Division armoured regiment is plausible.
> 
> @Path-Finder @HRK @Signalian @Starlord @CriticalThought @waz


The IABG's and IMBG's should be covered by M-109L.



Armchair said:


> pull. more pull.


I think the Saad Variant Viper could be a prospective IFV with the pull you desire

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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> The IABG's and IMBG's should be covered by M-109L.



If all Italian M109L's are acquired, not only IABG/IMBG's but Infantry Division armoured regiments & Artillery Divisions can be equipped as well:

*M109L:*

1 + 1 + 1 regiments in 3x IABG (18 x 3 = 54)

1 + 1 regiments in 2x IABG under raising/planned (18 x 2 = 36)

1 battery each for 17x Infantry Division armoured regiments excl. 12 ID, FCNA & 34 LID (6 x 17 = 102) 

*2 Artillery Division (I Corps)*

1x SP Heavy Regiment with M110A2 (exists?)

2x SP Medium Regiments with M109L (18 x 2 = 36)

*21 Artillery Division (V Corps)*

1x SP Heavy Regiment with M110A2 (confirmed)

2x SP Medium Regiments with M109L (18 x 2 = 36)

Total = 264














*Leonardo testing upgraded M109L SP artillery system*

*Christopher F Foss, London* - Jane's International Defence Review
29 January 2019





_An upgraded Italian M109L from the rear fitted with the Leonardo 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance partly elevated, and with spades either side of the hull in raised position. Source: Leonardo_

Italy's Leonardo Defence Systems has developed and tested an upgrade package, aimed at the export market, for the M109L 155 mm self-propelled (SP) artillery system.

The standard M109L is fitted with an Italian-built 155 mm/39 calibre ordnance that is the equivalent to that fitted to the 155 mm FH-70 towed artillery system still deployed by the Italian Army.

The latest upgraded M109L has a 23 litre chamber and meets the Joint Ballistic Memorandum of Understanding (JBMOU). It is also fitted with a fume extractor and a new pepper box muzzle brake.

The recoil system and equilibrators were modified to take into account the increased recoil and weight of the 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance. The breech mechanism is of the screw type, and a flick rammer is fitted with an adaption on the stroke of the rammer to fit with the longer chamber.

Maximum range depends on the projectile and charge combination, but firing a standard 155 mm M15A2 high-explosive (HE) projectile a maximum range of 30 km can be achieved, or an extended range ammunition could reach 40 km, according to Leonardo.

The most significant range improvement would be firing the latest Leonardo Volcano 155 mm Ballistic Extended Range (BER) artillery projectile, which was type classified by the Italian Army and is ready for quantity production as soon as orders are placed.

Volcano features a sub-calibre fin-stabilised airframe that is loaded with an Insensitive Munition (IM)-compliant HE with patented tungsten rings. This is fitted with a nose-mounted multifunction fuze that can be set for altitude, impact/delayed, time, or self-destruct functions. This airframe has sabots that fall away after firing, and the 16 kg fin-stabilised projectile is 90 mm in diameter.

To read the full article, Client Login
(304 of 647 words)

Leonardo testing upgraded M109L SP artillery system | Jane's International Defence Review


Pakistan is the only major foreign recipient.

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## Maxpane

its going on still


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## Theparadox

MilSpec said:


> Actually no, Pakistan SPH fleet is far more superior to anything India has, if you try to research how many SPH's Indian Army has, the number would make you roll on the floor laughing.



Cuz IA is not interested in SPH, unlike PA which will be defending against IA's rapid deployment. That's why we won't buy more than 150, before cold start the requirements was of 500.


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## Cuirassier

Serious firepower there.


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## ziaulislam

Theparadox said:


> Cuz IA is not interested in SPH, unlike PA which will be defending against IA's rapid deployment. That's why we won't buy more than 150, before cold start the requirements was of 500.


why?, SPH is very good offensive weapon as well?

infact i always thought it was more an offensive weapon given better mobility than towed art

indian lack of art update since 1990 is simply due to lack of funds, red tape and corruption scandel

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> If all Italian M109L's are acquired, not only IABG/IMBG's but Infantry Division armoured regiments & Artillery Divisions can be equipped as well:
> 
> *M109L:*
> 
> 1 + 1 + 1 regiments in 3x IABG (18 x 3 = 54)
> 
> 1 + 1 regiments in 2x IABG under raising/planned (18 x 2 = 36)
> 
> 1 battery each for 17x Infantry Division armoured regiments excl. 12 ID, FCNA & 34 LID (6 x 17 = 102)
> 
> *2 Artillery Division (I Corps)*
> 
> 1x SP Heavy Regiment with M110A2 (exists?)
> 
> 2x SP Medium Regiments with M109L (18 x 2 = 36)
> 
> *21 Artillery Division (V Corps)*
> 
> 1x SP Heavy Regiment with M110A2 (confirmed)
> 
> 2x SP Medium Regiments with M109L (18 x 2 = 36)
> 
> Total = 264
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Leonardo testing upgraded M109L SP artillery system*
> 
> *Christopher F Foss, London* - Jane's International Defence Review
> 29 January 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _An upgraded Italian M109L from the rear fitted with the Leonardo 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance partly elevated, and with spades either side of the hull in raised position. Source: Leonardo_
> 
> Italy's Leonardo Defence Systems has developed and tested an upgrade package, aimed at the export market, for the M109L 155 mm self-propelled (SP) artillery system.
> 
> The standard M109L is fitted with an Italian-built 155 mm/39 calibre ordnance that is the equivalent to that fitted to the 155 mm FH-70 towed artillery system still deployed by the Italian Army.
> 
> The latest upgraded M109L has a 23 litre chamber and meets the Joint Ballistic Memorandum of Understanding (JBMOU). It is also fitted with a fume extractor and a new pepper box muzzle brake.
> 
> The recoil system and equilibrators were modified to take into account the increased recoil and weight of the 155 mm/52 calibre ordnance. The breech mechanism is of the screw type, and a flick rammer is fitted with an adaption on the stroke of the rammer to fit with the longer chamber.
> 
> Maximum range depends on the projectile and charge combination, but firing a standard 155 mm M15A2 high-explosive (HE) projectile a maximum range of 30 km can be achieved, or an extended range ammunition could reach 40 km, according to Leonardo.
> 
> The most significant range improvement would be firing the latest Leonardo Volcano 155 mm Ballistic Extended Range (BER) artillery projectile, which was type classified by the Italian Army and is ready for quantity production as soon as orders are placed.
> 
> Volcano features a sub-calibre fin-stabilised airframe that is loaded with an Insensitive Munition (IM)-compliant HE with patented tungsten rings. This is fitted with a nose-mounted multifunction fuze that can be set for altitude, impact/delayed, time, or self-destruct functions. This airframe has sabots that fall away after firing, and the 16 kg fin-stabilised projectile is 90 mm in diameter.
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (304 of 647 words)
> 
> Leonardo testing upgraded M109L SP artillery system | Jane's International Defence Review
> 
> 
> Pakistan is the only major foreign recipient.



Is Pakistan interested in Vulcano?

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Pakistan has basically without spending too much made a huge impact by acquiring these guns. These guns are capable of massive upgrades and they won't need a long time for induction because infrastructure already exists.


How many are we acquiring ???


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> Is Pakistan interested in Vulcano?



PA has evaluated some foreign offerings which includes this HE ERFB-BB ammo from a Slovakian company. Don't know about Vulcano.






https://www.msm.sk/en/msm-group/zvs/ammunition/medium-and-big-caliber-ammunition/155-mm-ammunition/



Zarvan said:


> How many are we acquiring ???



You can say PA wants to buy as many Italy can sell.

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## Theparadox

ziaulislam said:


> why?, SPH is very good offensive weapon as well?
> 
> infact i always thought it was more an offensive weapon given better mobility than towed art
> 
> indian lack of art update since 1990 is simply due to lack of funds, red tape and corruption scandel



IA requirement can be fulfilled with tanks and truck MGS, so 100-150 tracked SPH is enough. Nowadays even towed artillery have very long ranges like ATAGS. PA doesn't have such capability. One should ask how these SPG will be used on cuz mountain, semi-desert terrains.


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## Cuirassier

Gryphon said:


> PA has evaluated some foreign offerings which includes this HE ERFB-BB ammo from a Slovakian company. Don't know about Vulcano.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.msm.sk/en/msm-group/zvs/ammunition/medium-and-big-caliber-ammunition/155-mm-ammunition/
> 
> 
> 
> You can say PA wants to buy as many Italy can sell.


Could you clear my confusion on this picture. We all know that 21st Arty Div is HQed in Malakand, but this M110 SPH seems to belong to the Div, even though it's a useless asset in that terrain. Is the whole division deployed in Malakand or only a brigade or so? And the rest elsewhere?


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## Basel

Theparadox said:


> Cuz IA is not interested in SPH, unlike PA which will be defending against IA's rapid deployment. That's why we won't buy more than 150, before cold start the requirements was of 500.



SPH is core to any strike force and if IA is neglecting it then they may pay heavy price for it in any future war.

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## monitor

Gryphon said:


> PA has evaluated some foreign offerings which includes this HE ERFB-BB ammo from a Slovakian company. Don't know about Vulcano.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.msm.sk/en/msm-group/zvs/ammunition/medium-and-big-caliber-ammunition/155-mm-ammunition/
> 
> 
> 
> You can say PA wants to buy as many Italy can sell.


But Slovakian options range is less than Volcano 42 km vs 70 km.


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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> PA has evaluated some foreign offerings which includes this HE ERFB-BB ammo from a Slovakian company. Don't know about Vulcano.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.msm.sk/en/msm-group/zvs/ammunition/medium-and-big-caliber-ammunition/155-mm-ammunition/
> 
> 
> 
> You can say PA wants to buy as many Italy can sell.



Italy and Slovakia are working on Vulcano development as well.

https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/accordo-collaborazione-konstrukta-collaboration-agreement


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## waz

Theparadox said:


> IA requirement can be fulfilled with tanks and truck MGS, so 100-150 tracked SPH is enough. Nowadays even towed artillery have very long ranges like ATAGS. PA doesn't have such capability. One should ask how these SPG will be used on cuz mountain, semi-desert terrains.



Self propelled artillery has been used successfully for decades in desert and semi-desert terrain. Two Gulf wars, Syria etc.






Mountains, what about Afghanistan? 






The 155 SPG is potent in both types of terrain.

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## Gryphon

monitor said:


> But Slovakian options range is less than Volcano 42 km vs 70 km.



Range is not the only consideration when buying new ammo. Army has huge requirements, desires local production; if that isn't possible, the supplier is asked to provide kits for assembly at POF.

Vulcano 155mm max range is 40km (for BER) and 60km (for GLR). The guided version is certainly impressive but may not be affordable for all.



waz said:


> Self propelled artillery has been used successfully for decades in desert and semi-desert terrain. Two Gulf wars, Syria etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mountains, what about Afghanistan?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 155 SPG is potent in both types of terrain.



PA has shut the door for new towed systems.
155mm wheeled SPH required for formations in GB/AJK and other areas.

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## waz

Gryphon said:


> PA has shut the door for new towed systems.
> 155mm wheeled SPH required for formations in GB/AJK and other areas.



They also have their own logistical issues as well i.e. the artillery has to be transported....Good luck with that in a theatre of war and in rough terrain.

Here's a post I read on a forum full of serving soliders and a guy from a US artillery unit talks about both;

Since I’ve served in both, I can sum it up as following:

When talking about the same caliber guns (155mm) and not some toys you can mount on a helicopter, *self propelled is better in any aspect related to the mission: it moves faster, deploys faster, less sensitive to rough terrain, can be ready for fire faster, [usually] have better supporting devices such as gyroscopes and GPS, can relocate faster, can deploy in a better protected locations or in small and dense locations and it is basically better in any other parameter I can think of when it comes to conventional warfare which involves intense firing and moving.*

So why use towed artillery, you ask?

Because everything I mentioned above comes with high cost:


_*Cost in developing and producing the self-propelled guns.*_
_*Cost of maintenance - 500hp+ diesel engines, complex hydraulics, wiring, Continuous track, skilled mechanics and technicians for all these sub-systems and other aspects which cost a fortune to maintain compared to towed guns.*_
_*Cost and long-term availability of parts which most are produced specifically for this type of vehicles, as opposed to towing trucks which can be easily replaced.*_
_*Cost of training - I can’t testify for every military in the world, but where I come from, properly training a team of self-propelled gun took 2 months while towed gun crew could be trained in 2–3 weeks, not to mention that engine-hours for training cost more in orders of magnitude. This also means a faster turn around time to replace missing men, if needed. On top of that, operating SP guns required special skills for each member of the crew, skills that you lost if you haven’t done it often enough (extremely important for reserve units). With towed units you simply have one team leader, one guy responsible for aiming and all the rest are performing roles which are easily refreshed after 1–2 hours in the field.*_
I’m sure there are some things I missed. T*he bottom line is that towed artillery is something many countries can afford obtaining in large numbers without draining their defense budget*. However, while towed guns are great on static battle, i.e. standing in one place for days and providing firepower,* they are a nightmare (compared to self propelled) when they need to move away from paved roads and travel around sand dunes or rocky terrains. *Try just once to take a U-turn with a towed guns battery over such road and you’ll understand what I’m talking about.

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## Signalian

TF141 said:


> Could you clear my confusion on this picture. We all know that 21st Arty Div is HQed in Malakand, but this M110 SPH seems to belong to the Div, even though it's a useless asset in that terrain. Is the whole division deployed in Malakand or only a brigade or so? And the rest elsewhere?
> View attachment 536186


Thats Formation sign of SFC.


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## Cuirassier

Signalian said:


> Thats Formation sign of SFC.


21st Arty Div, Malakand.


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## Path-Finder

waz said:


> They also have their own logistical issues as well i.e. the artillery has to be transported....Good luck with that in a theatre of war and in rough terrain.
> 
> Here's a post I read on a forum full of serving soliders and a guy from a US artillery unit talks about both;
> 
> Since I’ve served in both, I can sum it up as following:
> 
> When talking about the same caliber guns (155mm) and not some toys you can mount on a helicopter, *self propelled is better in any aspect related to the mission: it moves faster, deploys faster, less sensitive to rough terrain, can be ready for fire faster, [usually] have better supporting devices such as gyroscopes and GPS, can relocate faster, can deploy in a better protected locations or in small and dense locations and it is basically better in any other parameter I can think of when it comes to conventional warfare which involves intense firing and moving.*
> 
> So why use towed artillery, you ask?
> 
> Because everything I mentioned above comes with high cost:
> 
> 
> _*Cost in developing and producing the self-propelled guns.*_
> _*Cost of maintenance - 500hp+ diesel engines, complex hydraulics, wiring, Continuous track, skilled mechanics and technicians for all these sub-systems and other aspects which cost a fortune to maintain compared to towed guns.*_
> _*Cost and long-term availability of parts which most are produced specifically for this type of vehicles, as opposed to towing trucks which can be easily replaced.*_
> _*Cost of training - I can’t testify for every military in the world, but where I come from, properly training a team of self-propelled gun took 2 months while towed gun crew could be trained in 2–3 weeks, not to mention that engine-hours for training cost more in orders of magnitude. This also means a faster turn around time to replace missing men, if needed. On top of that, operating SP guns required special skills for each member of the crew, skills that you lost if you haven’t done it often enough (extremely important for reserve units). With towed units you simply have one team leader, one guy responsible for aiming and all the rest are performing roles which are easily refreshed after 1–2 hours in the field.*_
> I’m sure there are some things I missed. T*he bottom line is that towed artillery is something many countries can afford obtaining in large numbers without draining their defense budget*. However, while towed guns are great on static battle, i.e. standing in one place for days and providing firepower,* they are a nightmare (compared to self propelled) when they need to move away from paved roads and travel around sand dunes or rocky terrains. *Try just once to take a U-turn with a towed guns battery over such road and you’ll understand what I’m talking about.



Towed guns are a great target for counter battery, something that needs to be taken into account because in our scenario both sides will have the ability to counter battery.

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## ziaulislam

Theparadox said:


> IA requirement can be fulfilled with tanks and truck MGS, so 100-150 tracked SPH is enough. Nowadays even towed artillery have very long ranges like ATAGS. PA doesn't have such capability. One should ask how these SPG will be used on cuz mountain, semi-desert terrains.


There are no mountain in sindh/punjab..no tanks cant fill art role ..and exactly one should ask how is India going to use truck /towed art in desert region ..tracked SPH is "tracked self propelled " isnt it obvious !

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## Path-Finder

ziaulislam said:


> There are no mountain in sindh/punjab..no tanks cant fill art role ..and exactly one should ask how is India going to use truck /towed art in desert region ..tracked SPH is "tracked self propelled " isnt it obvious !



they are under the context anything they have is automatically superior. I think trucked SP will be used more on the western front.



Gryphon said:


> Range is not the only consideration when buying new ammo. Army has huge requirements, desires local production; if that isn't possible, the supplier is asked to provide kits for assembly at POF.
> 
> Vulcano 155mm max range is 40km (for BER) and 60km (for GLR). The guided version is certainly impressive but may not be affordable for all.
> 
> 
> 
> PA has shut the door for new towed systems.
> 155mm wheeled SPH required for formations in GB/AJK and other areas.



What about, Chinese guided ammo?

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## jamal18

Did anybody here mention counter battery fire? A radar detects the trajectory of the shell, back plots it and fires on that location. SP artillery is more survivable as it fires a salvo and moves.

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## ziaulislam

jamal18 said:


> Did anybody here mention counter battery fire? A radar detects the trajectory of the shell, back plots it and fires on that location. SP artillery is more survivable as it fires a salvo and moves.


yes..so its odd why indian think otherwise..towed art is very vulnerable to counter battery fire...the reason why SPH/truck art is getting very popular now

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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> yes..so its odd why indian think otherwise..towed art is very vulnerable to counter battery fire...the reason why SPH/truck art is getting very popular now



The knowledgeable ones have openly accepted this.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050968148537692161


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## fatman17

Pakistan has Freshly acqiired batch of 31 M109L 155mm SPA from Italy.
Total no of M109L acquired in past two years has reached 96! (122 as per some sources) 
These all units will be upgraded later on.
Despite of induction of K9 Vajra [emoji1128], [emoji1191] still enjoy dominance in domain of SPA https://t.co/SBL8d69pYT

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## Gryphon

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan has Freshly acqiired batch of 31 M109L 155mm SPA from Italy.
> Total no of M109L acquired in past two years has reached 96! (122 as per some sources)
> These all units will be upgraded later on.
> Despite of induction of K9 Vajra [emoji1128], [emoji1191] still enjoy dominance in domain of SPA https://t.co/SBL8d69pYT
> View attachment 536703



122x M109L delivered.

And 41x M109A4+ acquired from Canada, though the fate of these pcs is unclear.

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## HRK

as per the following source Pakistan was negotiating for 100 M-109L at *40,000 EURO *each






http://espresso.repubblica.it/attua...arri-armati-1.204774#gallery-slider=undefined

but as @Gryphon has reported [click here] another batch of 31 delivered to Pakistan which make the number of M-109L in PA inventory 122 which further mean the deal was for larger number of M-109L than the reported 100 units as mention above, initially the same source reported total 132 M-109L were on offer but other sources were reporting that the entire fleet of M-109L SPH of Italian Army was on offer

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> as per the following source Pakistan was negotiating for 100 M-109L at *40,000 EURO*
> 
> View attachment 536742
> 
> http://espresso.repubblica.it/attua...arri-armati-1.204774#gallery-slider=undefined
> 
> but as @Gryphon has reported [click here] another batch of 31 delivered to Pakistan which make the number of M-109L in PA inventory 122 which further mean the deal was for larger number of M-109L than the reported 100 units as mention above, initially the same source reported total 132 M-109L were on offer but other sources were reporting the entire M-109L of Italian Army was on offer



there are alot of goodies in the tank yard!!

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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> there are alot of goodies in the tank yard!!


I don't think Leo-1 tank will attract our interest beside this M-109L and VCC-1 and 2 are already acquired by PA, I am more interested to know about cost of upgrades for this SPH.

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> I don't think Leo-1 tank ill attract our interest beside this M-109L and VCC-1 and 2 are already acquired by PA, I am more interested to know about cost of upgrades for this SPH.



There are so many M113 in their stock.

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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> There are so many M113 in their stock.


yes ..... but we have already acquired 600+ VCC-1 and 2 APC which are version of M113

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## ziaulislam

Gryphon said:


> 122x M109L delivered.
> 
> And 41x M109A4+ acquired from Canada, though the fate of these pcs is unclear.


Are they functional or for spares ?

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## Zulfiqar

HRK said:


> as per the following source Pakistan was negotiating for 100 M-109L at *40,000 EURO *each
> 
> View attachment 536742
> 
> http://espresso.repubblica.it/attua...arri-armati-1.204774#gallery-slider=undefined
> 
> but as @Gryphon has reported [click here] another batch of 31 delivered to Pakistan which make the number of M-109L in PA inventory 122 which further mean the deal was for larger number of M-109L than the reported 100 units as mention above, initially the same source reported total 132 M-109L were on offer but other sources were reporting that the entire fleet of M-109L SPH of Italian Army was on offer



40,000 euros. That is a bargain. Costs less than the value of shells it could fire.

Itne main to v 8 land cruiser nahi aati Pakistan main.

PA should buy the whole lot and everything in between.

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## HRK

Zulfiqar said:


> 40,000 euros. That is a bargain.


If those were put in maintenance in Italy before the delivery than it must have cost some extra amount lets *assume* total per unit acquisition cost is something around 80-100K euro ....

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## Rafi

HRK said:


> If those were put in maintenance in Italy before the delivery than it must have cost some extra amount lets *assume* total per unit acquisition cost is something around 80-100K euro ....



Still a bargain, the land formations have increased their strength, by leaps and bounds at limited cost.

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## Theparadox

Basel said:


> SPH is core to any strike force and if IA is neglecting it then they may pay heavy price for it in any future war.


IA won't buy more than 150 of K-9 while PA will have 325+245= around 570 of tracked SPH almost 5 times of IA. But we will have 1000s of towed, 1000s of truck MGS and 1000s of Light artillery but not tracked SPG. Reasons are simple, geography and our doctrine.


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## Rafi

NS


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## CriticalThought

Rafi said:


> NS



Ummmm?


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## Rafi

CriticalThought said:


> Ummmm?



Was going to say something, then thought it was best not to, NS ie nuff said.

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## CriticalThought

Rafi said:


> Was going to say something, then thought it was best not to, NS ie nuff said.



I was thinking, most certainly MRO would need to be setup at HIT. Would that divert resources from Al-Khalid?

Also, tactics and training would take time. Now seems to be a good time to join Artillery because they will need to induct more people.

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## waz

Path-Finder said:


> there are alot of goodies in the tank yard!!



Scrap to be honest bro. 42 ton LEO 1's are consigned to history. 
The artillery is well worth it. It's given the PA a huge punch.

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## Bossman

CriticalThought said:


> I was thinking, most certainly MRO would need to be setup at HIT. Would that divert resources from Al-Khalid?
> 
> Also, tactics and training would take time. Now seems to be a good time to join Artillery because they will need to induct more people.


M109s are already being rebuilt at HIT. The Italian deal is a real scoop.

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## Rafi

CriticalThought said:


> I was thinking, most certainly MRO would need to be setup at HIT. Would that divert resources from Al-Khalid?
> 
> Also, tactics and training would take time. Now seems to be a good time to join Artillery because they will need to induct more people.



I think we will induct them fairly quickly.

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## Path-Finder

waz said:


> Scrap to be honest bro. 42 ton LEO 1's are consigned to history.
> The artillery is well worth it. It's given the PA a huge punch.



not the tanks, but the M113 in sheer numbers which is like carboot sale for Pakistan. I guess it will help raise more mechanised units and overall more strike corps.

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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> not the tanks, but the M113 in sheer numbers which is like carboot sale for Pakistan. I guess it will help raise more mechanised units and overall more strike corps.



Yeah rapid mechanisation of our Infantry, also can't wait for the IFV.

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## Path-Finder

Rafi said:


> Yeah rapid mechanisation of our Infantry, also can't wait for the IFV.



any hints where it might be from?

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## Rafi

Path-Finder said:


> any hints where it might be from?



The Viper (see IDEAS 2018) is currently in trials, based on the Saad (HIT M113) will be our tracked IFV if it gets through.

There is also a demand for a Wheeled MRAP/IFV which the Hamza can potentially fill.

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## Basel

Theparadox said:


> IA won't buy more than 150 of K-9 while PA will have 325+245= around 570 of tracked SPH almost 5 times of IA. But we will have 1000s of towed, 1000s of truck MGS and 1000s of Light artillery but not tracked SPG. Reasons are simple, geography and our doctrine.



You think PA dont have towed guns?? Derr PA is upgrading its towed guns to 155/52 caliber same gun used in K-9, here PA will have edge as they will be able to field guns as per requirement.

Also towed guns are good for defence not for offence or cold start type doctrine.

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## ARMalik

Slightly off topic but could not resist posting the two IVFs from Germany - beautiful vehicles. 
*
German - Puma IVF, and Lynx*


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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> You think PA dont have towed guns?? Derr PA is upgrading its towed guns to 155/52 caliber same gun used in K-9, here PA will have edge as they will be able to field guns as per requirement.
> 
> Also towed guns are good for defence not for offence or cold start type doctrine.



its a good choice going for the Korean Towed gun. Doesn't cost soo much but does the same job

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Gryphon said:


> M109L variant en route Pakistan in 2017. PA may end up buying the entire Italian inventory. Leonardo will also offer the 52 cal. upgrade.


what is the estimate per gun cost ?

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## Bossman

Basel said:


> You think PA dont have towed guns?? Derr PA is upgrading its towed guns to 155/52 caliber same gun used in K-9, here PA will have edge as they will be able to field guns as per requirement.
> 
> Also towed guns are good for defence not for offence or cold start type doctrine.


Pakistan also has 155mm M198 towed guns. The M777 that India is acquiring is a stripped down version of M198 to allow for air mobility.

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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> You think PA dont have towed guns?? Derr PA is upgrading its towed guns to 155/52 caliber same gun used in K-9, here PA will have edge as they will be able to field guns as per requirement.
> 
> Also towed guns are good for defence not for offence or cold start type doctrine.


Strike cores cant field towed art and maintain mobility ..i am.surprised that despite the hue and cry of cold start this is ignored..
India needs SPH, IFV, Tanks and APC in large numbers if they are going to have any chance of even trying cold start

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## Sulman Badshah

SSGcommandoPAK said:


> what is the estimate per gun cost ?


40,000 Euro (Source is posted by HRK)

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> Strike cores cant field towed art and maintain mobility ..i am.surprised that despite the hue and cry of cold start this is ignored..
> India needs SPH, IFV, Tanks and APC in large numbers if they are going to have any chance of even trying cold start



Heavy SPAs are core element of strike formations as they are the ones which destroy harden enemy defences and destroy enemy units at distance, allowing movement to armor columns.


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## ziaulislam

Path-Finder said:


> its a good choice going for the Korean Towed gun. Doesn't cost soo much but does the same job


Pakistan needs to do a full tot and start building its own equipment

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## Basel

Bossman said:


> Pakistan also has 155mm M198 towed guns. The M777 that India is acquiring is a stripped down version of M198 to allow for air mobility.



If Pakistan need light weight 155/39 gun then China can make one for Pakistan just like SH-15, also PA may upgrade M-198s to 155/52 standard.



Path-Finder said:


> its a good choice going for the Korean Towed gun. Doesn't cost soo much but does the same job



The news was that PA may buy upto 150 units and will award contract to upgrade all 130mm guns to 155mm standard along with some 155/39 guns to 155/52 standard.


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## Path-Finder

Basel said:


> If Pakistan need light weight 155/39 gun then China can make one for Pakistan just like SH-15, also PA may upgrade M-198s to 155/52 standard.
> 
> 
> 
> The news was that PA may buy upto 150 units and will award contract to upgrade all 130mm guns to 155mm standard along with some 155/39 guns to 155/52 standard.


it is an incredible bang for buck.

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## waz

Brothers what are the facts around the S.Korean towed artillery? Is it the Hanwha Corporation KH179 155 mm which was on loan through a trial?

Has there been a definite order for this gun?


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## HRK

waz said:


> Brothers what are the facts around the S.Korean towed artillery? Is it the Hanwha Corporation KH179 155 mm which was on loan through a trial?
> 
> Has there been a definite order for this gun?


current status is not known but only two pieces were imported for testing purpose

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) / @Quwa do you have any update about KH-179 howitzer trail in Pakistan (link)

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## naahmad28

Path-Finder said:


> I am not sure but wisdom leads me to believe, Things on all of these supposed outdated guns can be updated. From Barrel to all forms of mechanical and electronic systems from possibly Turkey's indigenous systems they use on their own SP guns.
> 
> 'If' that is the case then it is big bang for small buck.



They are updated twice during the lifetime in Italy.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3729.html



HAIDER said:


> Here is detail
> 
> View attachment 470947



Few things are missing in the above detail, that is:
1) These pieces were bought without Ammo, locally developed in Italy
2) Longer Barrel designed and installed in Italy


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> current status is not known but only two pieces were imported for testing purpose
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) / @Quwa do you have any update about KH-179 howitzer trail in Pakistan (link)


Not sure where the wheeled SPH is at. On last check, the PA was just following a few programs in China and Turkey (after apparently SA, Serbia didn't meet requirements). IMO, no money = no one meets requirements.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

M109s delivered to Pak army ? 




__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> Also, tactics and training would take time. Now seems to be a good time to join Artillery because they will need to induct more people.


Field and Medium Regiments convert to SP.



Gryphon said:


> If all Italian M109L's are acquired, not only IABG/IMBG's but Infantry Division armoured regiments & Artillery Divisions can be equipped as well:
> 
> *M109L:*
> 
> 1 + 1 + 1 regiments in 3x IABG (18 x 3 = 54)
> 
> 1 + 1 regiments in 2x IABG under raising/planned (18 x 2 = 36)
> 
> 1 battery each for 17x Infantry Division armoured regiments excl. 12 ID, FCNA & 34 LID (6 x 17 = 102)
> 
> *2 Artillery Division (I Corps)*
> 
> 1x SP Heavy Regiment with M110A2 (exists?)
> 
> 2x SP Medium Regiments with M109L (18 x 2 = 36)
> 
> *21 Artillery Division (V Corps)*
> 
> 1x SP Heavy Regiment with M110A2 (confirmed)
> 
> 2x SP Medium Regiments with M109L (18 x 2 = 36)
> 
> Total = 264


You are not factoring in the Independent Artillery Bde's under Corps HQ's. The M-109's are a maneuver piece of equipment, there presence in Arty Div is under utilization.


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> yes..so its odd why indian think otherwise..towed art is very vulnerable to counter battery fire...the reason why SPH/truck art is getting very popular now





CriticalThought said:


> The knowledgeable ones have openly accepted this.


M-777 can be lifted by chopper and deployed in mountains.

Along LOC and Siachen, there are locations where wheeled vehicles cannot go, therefore PA uses pack howitzers/light howitzers at such places. FCNA is deployed in such terrain. 23 ID, 19 ID and most of 12 ID are deployed in terrain with good roads.

During counter battery fire in mountains and hilly areas, there is not much room to maneuver for a battery under fire, even wheeled. The roads are not wide, the deployment zones are cramped with ammunition, supplies and natural obstacles. Mobility becomes worse in snow and icy conditions. In mountains, Howitzers are usually deployed on reverse slopes to escape counter battery fire.

Wheeled systems can keep good pace and deploy quickly to support infantry divisions, if the infantry formations are motorized but bear in mind that infantry fights on foot after dismounting from trucks and APC's. There is hardly any maneuver warfare in infantry formations. Its not practical to assume that infantry is holding a portion of land defensively and in rear the artillery is continuously shifting positions due to counter battery fire.

Counter battery fire is complicated. Factors to be considered before executing fire:
1. Knowledge of the tactics and technique of employment of the enemy's artillery and other heavy weapons.
2. The amount and types of artillery in the enemy force and the degree to which it is active.
3. Knowledge of the enemy's capability for reinforcing position with more artillery.
4. An estimation of own capability to locate enemy artillery position.
5. An estimation of own ability to deliver effective fire on enemy artillery locations by appropriate methods.
6. Knowledge of the strength, status, and morale of enemy artillery units.
7. Knowledge of the intensity or type of fire required to achieve the effect desired upon the enemy artillery locations.
8. Knowledge of the enemy capability of locating own artillery and delivering effective fire on own battery positions.
9. Employment of deception techniques to reduce the enemy's capability for locating our artillery positions.
10. Knowledge of the communication systems employed by enemy artillery commanders and the location of enemy communication installations.

Usually artillery units attached to Corps Artillery are used for counter battery fire because the artillery units attached to divisions are used for supporting division's formations. Enemy batteries are usually attacked with surprise fire. Time and ammunition permitting, enemy batteries once neutralized should be destroyed by fire for effect. The observation battalion can often determine the accuracy of unobserved fires by sound, flash, or radar.

WLR's(weapon locating radar) are not the only system used to locate enemy artillery, other methods are used too:
1. Field Artillery Observation battalion.
2. Corps Artillery aviation battery and other tactical/Recon army aviation assets.
3. Photo interpreters (satellite assets included).
4. Unit shelling reports and shell crater analysis.
5. Ground observation posts including bunkers.
6. Interrogating prisoners of war but mostly civilians living in proximity.
7. Communication Recon units.
8. Infantry/SF/Armored units positioned in the Area.

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> M-777 can be lifted by chopper and deployed in mountains.
> 
> Along LOC and Siachen, there are locations where wheeled vehicles cannot go, therefore PA uses pack howitzers/light howitzers at such places. FCNA is deployed in such terrain. 23 ID, 19 ID and most of 12 ID are deployed in terrain with good roads.
> 
> During counter battery fire in mountains and hilly areas, there is not much room to maneuver for a battery under fire, even wheeled. The roads are not wide, the deployment zones are cramped with ammunition, supplies and natural obstacles. Mobility becomes worse in snow and icy conditions. In mountains, Howitzers are usually deployed on reverse slopes to escape counter battery fire.
> 
> Wheeled systems can keep good pace and deploy quickly to support infantry divisions, if the infantry formations are motorized but bear in mind that infantry fights on foot after dismounting from trucks and APC's. There is hardly any maneuver warfare in infantry formations. Its not practical to assume that infantry is holding a portion of land defensively and in rear the artillery is continuously shifting positions due to counter battery fire.
> 
> Counter battery fire is complicated. Factors to be considered before executing fire:
> 1. Knowledge of the tactics and technique of employment of the enemy's artillery and other heavy weapons.
> 2. The amount and types of artillery in the enemy force and the degree to which it is active.
> 3. Knowledge of the enemy's capability for reinforcing position with more artillery.
> 4. An estimation of own capability to locate enemy artillery position.
> 5. An estimation of own ability to deliver effective fire on enemy artillery locations by appropriate methods.
> 6. Knowledge of the strength, status, and morale of enemy artillery units.
> 7. Knowledge of the intensity or type of fire required to achieve the effect desired upon the enemy artillery locations.
> 8. Knowledge of the enemy capability of locating own artillery and delivering effective fire on own battery positions.
> 9. Employment of deception techniques to reduce the enemy's capability for locating our artillery positions.
> 10. Knowledge of the communication systems employed by enemy artillery commanders and the location of enemy communication installations.
> 
> Usually artillery units attached to Corps Artillery are used for counter battery fire because the artillery units attached to divisions are used for supporting division's formations. Enemy batteries are usually attacked with surprise fire. Time and ammunition permitting, enemy batteries once neutralized should be destroyed by fire for effect. The observation battalion can often determine the accuracy of unobserved fires by sound, flash, or radar.
> 
> WLR's(weapon locating radar) are not the only system used to locate enemy artillery, other methods are used too:
> 1. Field Artillery Observation battalion.
> 2. Corps Artillery aviation battery and other tactical/Recon army aviation assets.
> 3. Photo interpreters (satellite assets included).
> 4. Unit shelling reports and shell crater analysis.
> 5. Ground observation posts including bunkers.
> 6. Interrogating prisoners of war but mostly civilians living in proximity.
> 7. Communication Recon units.
> 8. Infantry/SF/Armored units positioned in the Area.


In war india will aim for cold start..meaning rapid movement and capture of areas in sindh and Punjab ..this is where SPH will be more useful..Kashmir indeed is a different story


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> In war india will aim for cold start..meaning rapid movement and capture of areas in sindh and Punjab ..this is where SPH will be more useful..Kashmir indeed is a different story


India is acquiring K-9 SPG from ROK for this purpose.


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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> M-777 can be lifted by chopper and deployed in mountains.
> 
> Along LOC and Siachen, there are locations where wheeled vehicles cannot go, therefore PA uses pack howitzers/light howitzers at such places. FCNA is deployed in such terrain. 23 ID, 19 ID and most of 12 ID are deployed in terrain with good roads.
> 
> During counter battery fire in mountains and hilly areas, there is not much room to maneuver for a battery under fire, even wheeled. The roads are not wide, the deployment zones are cramped with ammunition, supplies and natural obstacles. Mobility becomes worse in snow and icy conditions. In mountains, Howitzers are usually deployed on reverse slopes to escape counter battery fire.
> 
> Wheeled systems can keep good pace and deploy quickly to support infantry divisions, if the infantry formations are motorized but bear in mind that infantry fights on foot after dismounting from trucks and APC's. There is hardly any maneuver warfare in infantry formations. Its not practical to assume that infantry is holding a portion of land defensively and in rear the artillery is continuously shifting positions due to counter battery fire.
> 
> Counter battery fire is complicated. Factors to be considered before executing fire:
> 1. Knowledge of the tactics and technique of employment of the enemy's artillery and other heavy weapons.
> 2. The amount and types of artillery in the enemy force and the degree to which it is active.
> 3. Knowledge of the enemy's capability for reinforcing position with more artillery.
> 4. An estimation of own capability to locate enemy artillery position.
> 5. An estimation of own ability to deliver effective fire on enemy artillery locations by appropriate methods.
> 6. Knowledge of the strength, status, and morale of enemy artillery units.
> 7. Knowledge of the intensity or type of fire required to achieve the effect desired upon the enemy artillery locations.
> 8. Knowledge of the enemy capability of locating own artillery and delivering effective fire on own battery positions.
> 9. Employment of deception techniques to reduce the enemy's capability for locating our artillery positions.
> 10. Knowledge of the communication systems employed by enemy artillery commanders and the location of enemy communication installations.
> 
> Usually artillery units attached to Corps Artillery are used for counter battery fire because the artillery units attached to divisions are used for supporting division's formations. Enemy batteries are usually attacked with surprise fire. Time and ammunition permitting, enemy batteries once neutralized should be destroyed by fire for effect. The observation battalion can often determine the accuracy of unobserved fires by sound, flash, or radar.
> 
> WLR's(weapon locating radar) are not the only system used to locate enemy artillery, other methods are used too:
> 1. Field Artillery Observation battalion.
> 2. Corps Artillery aviation battery and other tactical/Recon army aviation assets.
> 3. Photo interpreters (satellite assets included).
> 4. Unit shelling reports and shell crater analysis.
> 5. Ground observation posts including bunkers.
> 6. Interrogating prisoners of war but mostly civilians living in proximity.
> 7. Communication Recon units.
> 8. Infantry/SF/Armored units positioned in the Area.



You've opened a Pandora's box. Too many scenarios are possible so blanket statements are not possible. I wrote what I did assuming planes in Punjab or deserts in Sindh. You already have a thread on Pakistani artillery. How about a thread on IBG maneuvers in the world section discussing where we systematically dissect various scenarios? I promise to write Monte Carlo simulations if you provide the data.

Oh and you have been found AWOL on this thread

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indian-deceptive-coercion.602373/

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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> You've opened a Pandora's box. Too many scenarios are possible so blanket statements are not possible. I wrote what I did assuming planes in Punjab or deserts in Sindh. You already have a thread on Pakistani artillery. How about a thread on IBG maneuvers in the world section discussing where we systematically dissect various scenarios? I promise to write Monte Carlo simulations if you provide the data.
> 
> Oh and you have been found AWOL on this thread
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indian-deceptive-coercion.602373/


Data of IA or PA?


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## jamal18

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan needs to do a full tot and start building its own equipment



Years ago, and I mean about 20 yrs, when all this ToT business and self-sufficiency took off, we were told that they will be making artillery. Since then I believe we haven't made a single artillery barrel.

SP 155m is the basics in any modern military, and the talk is only of importing them, not making them.


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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> Data of IA or PA?



Realistic data that reflects real world systems and is indicative of the capabilities. I will be looking for hit probabilities, firing rates, potential of ammo to cause damage, potential of equipment to receive damage, distribution of equipment within formations, etc. None of these has to be actual values. We are war gaming hypothetical scenarios using realistic data.


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## Gryphon

waz said:


> Brothers what are the facts around the S.Korean towed artillery? Is it the Hanwha Corporation KH179 155 mm which was on loan through a trial?
> 
> Has there been a definite order for this gun?



PA has ceased procurement of new towed howitzers. The South Korean company was offering KH179 upgrade kits for M114. I am not aware of any orders.



HRK said:


> current status is not known but only two pieces were imported for testing purpose



Only one.



Signalian said:


> Field and Medium Regiments convert to SP.



In PA, medium regt's mainly use 130mm and 155mm. The former is a field gun, but PA classifies it as howitzer. Possibly, some modifications have been made.



> You are not factoring in the Independent Artillery Bde's under Corps HQ's. The M-109's are a maneuver piece of equipment, there presence in Arty Div is under utilization.



*10, 11 and 12 Corps:*

1x Corps Arty Bde each.
No Indp Armd/Mech Bde Gp.
*1 (Strike) Corps:*

No Corps Arty Bde, instead has 2 Arty Div under its command (with 2x Arty Bdes).
6 Armd Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides an SP Medium Regt to each Armd Bde.
8 IABG - 1x SP Medium Regt attached.
*2 (Strike) Corps:*

1x Corps Arty Bde.
1 Armd Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides an SP Medium Regt to each Armd Bde.
42 IABG - 1x SP Medium Regt attached.
*4 and 30 Corps:*

1x Corps Arty Bde each.
3 IABG (4 Corps) and 19 IABG (30 Corps) - each has 1x SP Medium Regt attached.
*31 (Holding) Corps:*

1x Corps Arty Bde.
26 Mech Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides SP Medium Regt's to 10 IABG, 14 IABG and 44 IMBG.
No other IABG / IMBG.
*V (Holding) Corps:*

No Corps Arty Bde, instead has 21 Arty Div under its command (with 2x Arty Bdes).

25 Mech Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides SP Medium Regt's to 12 IABG, 330 IABG and 31 IMBG.

2 IABG - 1x SP Medium Regt attached.

NOTES:

2 Corps Arty Bde includes 1x SP Heavy Regt.
21 Arty Div (V Corps) includes 1x SP Heavy Regt and probably 1x SP Medium Regt.
2 Arty Div (1 Corps) may also include 1x SP Heavy Regt.
So, all Corps with IABG / IMBG and/or Armd / Mech Div have SP Medium Regt's attached with these formations.

How do you intend to employ M109's with Corps Arty Bdes?


BTW, 1x SP Medium Regt has been assigned to an ID in South Punjab.

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## Cuirassier

We can come up with possible disposition of artillery formations in PA, but the actual setup is and will stay unknown outside GHQ.


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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> India is acquiring K-9 SPG from ROK for this purpose.


They would need at least 400-500

Pakistan needs light artillery and a plateform that can sling and move it


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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> How do you intend to employ M109's with Corps Arty Bdes?


I was intent on seeing where do extra M-109's land when all Arm'd/Mech formations are covered.



ziaulislam said:


> They would need at least 400-500


They will fill in with MBRL's.

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> I was intent on seeing where do extra M-109's land when all Arm'd/Mech formations are covered.
> 
> 
> They will fill in with MBRL's.


Cost effectiveness


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> Cost effectiveness


cost effectiveness in a military campaign to capture territory ? really?


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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> cost effectiveness in a military campaign to capture territory ? really?


10,000s of rockets would be needed for huge operation..

Seriously dumb bumbs and PCB wouldnt exist ..just crusie missles would have been enough...

Cost ...logistics matters every where

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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> 10,000s of rockets would be needed for huge operation..
> 
> Seriously dumb bumbs and PCB wouldnt exist ..just crusie missles would have been enough...
> 
> Cost ...logistics matters every where


The amount of damage that a MBRL is capable of doing is worth the cost.

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> The amount of damage that a MBRL is capable of doing is worth the cost.


I guess everyone should retire arterllery and focus on crusie missles, rockets and blastic missles.


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> I guess everyone should retire arterllery and focus on crusie missles, rockets and blastic missles.


Have to do with whats available without underestimating the enemy. If towed systems slows down the assault, wheeled will be used. MBRL's used in armored formations can wreak havoc on concentrated formations of MBT, IFV and APC.

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## Humble Analyst

Zarvan said:


> On LOC we have big Guns but Towed Ones not SP ones


Thanks as terrain not suitable for SP


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## Gryphon

TF141 said:


> We can come up with possible disposition of artillery formations in PA, but the actual setup is and will stay unknown outside GHQ.



This applies to all units & formations, but I am not relying on Wikipedia for data.



Signalian said:


> I was intent on seeing where do extra M-109's land when all Arm'd/Mech formations are covered.



There are 17 IDs with armd regt's, if more M109's are delivered, PA could assign 1x SP medium battery per ID armd regt.



Humble Analyst said:


> Thanks as terrain not suitable for SP



Wheeled SP howitzers can be used on LOC except a stretch in GB where disassembled artillery guns (130mm) and ammo are transported using helicopters and mules.

105mm howitzers (M101, Oto Melara Mod 56) can be quickly transported using Mi-17's with sling equipment installed, hence new light towed howitzers are not a priority, but I hear that wheeled 155mm guns are an urgent requirement.


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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> There are 17 IDs with armd regt's, if more M109's are delivered, PA could assign 1x SP medium battery per ID armd regt.


Then where will wheeled Arty go?


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## Gryphon

Signalian said:


> Then where will wheeled Arty go?



IMO, there are two possibilities:

1x SP Regiment per Corps Arty Bde / Arty Div SP Bde (18 x 9 = 162)

1x SP Regiment per Infantry Division Arty Bde (18 x 19 = 342)
One media report put PA's wheeled SPH requirement as high as 500, which makes me think 1x SP Regiment per Inf. Div. Arty Bde is probable.


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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> IMO, there are two possibilities:
> 
> 1x SP Regiment per Corps Arty Bde / Arty Div SP Bde (18 x 9 = 162)
> 
> 1x SP Regiment per Infantry Division Arty Bde (18 x 19 = 342)
> One media report put PA's wheeled SPH requirement as high as 500, which makes me think 1x SP Regiment per Inf. Div. Arty Bde is probable.


To have wheeled Artillery would warrant an IFV(not APC) equipped infantry battalion, fighting and firing on the move just like MBT's. But if the infantry uses wheeled transport trucks or MRAP's, it will need to dis mount and fight on foot and towed guns can provide all the fire support needed. Infantry also digs in and defends. An infantry Division maybe advance 50 km in a day and then stand and fight, towed guns are fine for that. Artillery deployment would take the same time, there would be no edge for wheeled Artillery. An infantry Division may stay at one position for days or maneuver a bit, even in plains of Punjab or desert. When the infantry digs in, the Artillery also digs in a few km behind it and responds to request of fire for effect. When infantry advances and makes contact, the infantry attacks a position and either holds it or withdraws, towed artillery also keeps up. There is no Arty support required on the move (wheeled Arty), unless its a hit and run OR hit and keep advancing on the go warfare, which tanks do and need Artillery (SP) to keep up always.

An armored or Mechanised Div may travel 50 km just to make contact and then another 50 km maneuvering or chasing enemy and then another 50 km either returning to defensive lines or moving to another location and maybe it comes across enemy formations and needs artillery support on the move, thats where SP Arty comes in. An armored regiment/Brigade maybe running left and right, up and down in a radius of 80 km and would require artillery and AD along with it, maybe even HAT or LAT. PA 1st Armored Division in 1965 was badly mauled by IA infantry formations in Khem Karan, the next day, armored units of 1st Armored Div were reinforcing 6th Armored Div in Sialkot, travelling over 200 km. The armored units went straight in combat supported by SP Arty which kept up with armoured forces through the transit (no big deal, towed might have done also), but SP Arty also kept up with attacks on IA armor in Sialkot during maneuver warfare which towed Arty couldn't have.


How does an MIB operate: infantry formation is accompanying armored forcesin APC's and it needs to keep pace with armor. Infantry Dis mounts APC's and joins combat with MBT's. Area gets captured. Infantry mounts APC's and joins MBT's in advance to next position/location along with SP Arty and SP AD. A sister formation, an infantry Division/Brigade attached with Armored formations takes over the captured area and deploys infantry for defense of the area. Just what 40th Infantry Division is supposed to do along with 1st Armored Div.


For wheeled artillery to be truly effective in infantry Divisions, PA should give its Infantry Divisions an Armored Brigade instead of just an Armored Regiment, that would make good use of wheeled Arty Regiment in infantry formations during maneuvering of Armored Brigade. Put Anza SAM equipped soldiers in Trucks and pick ups to give SP AD cover.

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## fatman17

Land Platforms

UAE confirms Chinese 155 mm AH4 gun-howitzer acquisition

Christopher F Foss, Abu Dhabi - Jane's Defence Weekly

28 February 2019

The UAE is the first known operator of the AH4. Source: Norinco

The United Arab Emirates (UAE) military confirmed it has acquired Norinco AH4 gun-howitzers on 21 February, when it announced on the last day of the IDEX show held in Abu Dhabi that it had awarded an AED30 million (USD8.2 million) contract to the local company International Golden Group (IAG) to supply ammunition for the weapon.

An industry source told Jane's that the UAE has received at least one batch of six of the 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight gun-howitzers to arm a battery for deployment in Yemen.

The UAE has already deployed some of its Denel G5 155 mm/45 calibre towed gun-howitzers to Yemen but these are considered too heavy for some missions. The G5 weighs about 14 tonnes, while Norinco says the AH4 weighs 4.5 tonnes. This means that, unlike the South African gun, it can be moved by one of the UAE's CH-47F Chinook transport helicopters using a sling.

The industry source said the UAE has also taken delivery of a quantity of the latest Norinco GP6 laser-guided 155 mm projectile, which the Chinese company says has a minimum range of 6 km and a maximum range of up to 25 km with a first round hit probability of at least 90%.

The UAE had already been suspected of using the GP1 laser-guided projectile after the remnants of one was photographed by a militant group in eastern Libya, where the Gulf state has deployed a small military force in support of the Libyan National Army.

The GP6 is claimed to be more resistant to jamming than the GP1, while its multiple laser coding technology enables co-operative multi-target engagement. The GP1 and GP6 are also referred to as the GP155 and GP155A respectively. Norinco also markets the GP155B, which is guided by a global navigation satellite system (GNSS).

Another option for Pakistan?


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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> Another option for Pakistan?
> View attachment 543131


Not considered by PA.


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## ghazi52

Satellite imagery, acquired by Planet Labs Inc. on the morning of 27 February and accessed by ASPI, calls this claim into question. No evidence of damage to the facility or nearby areas is visible on the images. Local media have visited the site and published photographs of multiple small craters in the vicinity, but they haven’t been granted access to the facility that was reportedly targeted. Satellite imagery, presented and analysed below, provides no apparent evidence of more extensive damage and on the face of it does not validate Indian claims regarding the effect of the strikes.







By analysing areas of healthy vegetation from the imagery, I’ve been able to identify three clear impact areas between 150 and 200 metres from the edge of the facility. These correspond to photos shared by local journalists and confirm the location of strikes.

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## fatman17

Land Platforms

NORINCO marketing SH-15 155 mm artillery system for export

Christopher F Foss, London - Jane's International Defence Review

06 March 2019

China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) is marketing a 155 mm self-propelled (SP) gun-howitzer (GH) called the SH-15. The system’s builder is unconfirmed.

It is based on a 6×6 chassis that has a four-door fully enclosed cab at the front, with a roof-mounted 12.7 mm machine gun (MG) for self-defence.

SH-15 is powered by a 400hp diesel engine with a 15.68 hp/tonne power-to-weight ratio.

The platform is fitted with a hydropneumatic suspension system that can be locked out when deployed in the firing position, which according to NORINCO helps increase “firing accuracy of all unguided projectiles by 50%” over the unstablised platform.

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## Signalian

Lots of M-110 in Turkish inventory.

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> Their entire inventory is up for sale, i.e., 250+ units. Pak should get all of them, equip every IABG & IMBG, and the new Mech. Div. planned for XXX Corps.







For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)

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## Dr. Strangelove

HRK said:


> View attachment 579896
> 
> For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)


Looking at our track record, we're most likely to get them. And Getting the Italian SPHs is one of the best investments PA has made in the last decade. They have significantly improved our firepower at very little expense.

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## HRK

Dr. Strangelove said:


> we're most likely to get them.


I hope .... they go for this batch as well


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## waz

HRK said:


> View attachment 579896
> 
> For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)



Good suggestion, hope the army is reading this.

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## TheDarkKnight

Signalian said:


> Not considered by PA.


Why not? Isn't it in the light weight category as m777?


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## Suff Shikan

I spotted it last week, loaded on train

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## HRK

Suff Shikan said:


> View attachment 579898
> 
> 
> I spotted it last week, loaded on train


in which city and and in which area .... ???


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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> View attachment 579896
> 
> For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)


wicked get all the M109's and upgrade them. Indeed the best bang for buck by PA.

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## Bossman

waz said:


> Good suggestion, hope the army is reading this.


They don’t have to. They are a way ahead! Most probably the deal is already done.

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## Signalian

TheDarkKnight said:


> Why not? Isn't it in the light weight category as m777?



PA requirements keep changing. Once there was a requirement of hundreds of wheeled SPGs. Some were evaluated but PA has inducted M-109 only

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## Signalian

HRK said:


> View attachment 579896
> 
> For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)



Tell this to Gryphon [emoji1]

He will be so happy and start updating records straightaway [emoji41]

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## Suff Shikan

HRK said:


> in which city and and in which area .... ???


Karachi, Drig Road... I cropped the image to hide further details. I just found out they are gone now.

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## TheDarkKnight

Signalian said:


> PA requirements keep changing. Once there was a requirement of hundreds of wheeled SPGs. Some were evaluated but PA has inducted M-109 only


Well that maybe fine, but do you think it is comparable to m777 in terms of performance (specs, quality, reliability etc.)?
How do you rate various chinese artillery pieces? In my opinion no one can beat the chinese favorable financial assistance packages and prospects of local production in case of Pakistan - so if they are even barely as good as other American/western options then I don't understand why PA is shying from ordering them in mass? In times of war as well the reliable logistic supply from China is another plus.

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## MystryMan

HRK said:


> View attachment 579896
> 
> For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)


I see 400 M113 and PUMA also

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## ACE OF THE AIR

HRK said:


> in which city and and in which area .... ???


They were loaded on a train. If they were freshly imported then they must be going to some workshop for inspection.

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## HRK

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> They were loaded on a train. If they were freshly imported then they must be going to some workshop for inspection.


or may be getting transferred from COD Karachi to some other part in the country ....



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> If they were freshly imported


last import was reported in January this year

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## ACE OF THE AIR

MystryMan said:


> I see 400 M113 and PUMA also


Pakistan Army might not go for both these as Viper is under consideration. Its supposed to be better than M-113. PUMA 4x4 and 6x6 are not in use with PA hence highly unlikely they would be purchased.

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## Signalian

TheDarkKnight said:


> Well that maybe fine, but do you think it is comparable to m777 in terms of performance (specs, quality, reliability etc.)?
> How do you rate various chinese artillery pieces? In my opinion no one can beat the chinese favorable financial assistance packages and prospects of local production in case of Pakistan - so if they are even barely as good as other American/western options then I don't understand why PA is shying from ordering them in mass? In times of war as well the reliable logistic supply from China is another plus.


Many years back, PA wanted to modernise all artillery to 155 mm standard.Then PA drifted towards wheeled artillery. PA wanted to go for TOT of Panter 155mm but stalled again.
PA should have started from an in-house production of 105mm, but never happened. Now there are 105mm, 122mm, 130mm,155mm, 203mm. First a standard has to be chosen and PA needs to stick to it. 

Infact in case of artillery, PA started acquiring MLRS and HATF series missiles. All these projects cannot go side by side. 155mm packs a punch which 105mm does not, so any type of 155mm should be locally produced. But in reality due to M-109's making their way into PA, the towed gun regiments are shifted to Infantry formations. So in either case (towed or SP) the number of overall artillery guns are increasing.

M-777 is an excellent weapon, can be lifted by heli. Which Heli in PA will lift M-777 or AH-4. IA has such helis (Mi-26 and CH-47).

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## Inception-06

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Pakistan Army might not go for both these as Viper is under consideration. Its supposed to be better than M-113. PUMA 4x4 and 6x6 are not in use with PA hence highly unlikely they would be purchased.


 Pakistan is buying all M-113 stocks from around the world, for spare parts, continuesly mechanisation of current mechanised Divisions. LAT and HAT, replacement for atrittion and may be mass conversation to VIPER. I think we have ca. 2500-3000 M-113 in service.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

approximately 500 Leopard 1A2 tanks that can be upgraded and Bell 412 and 212 are interesting. 
PA might be interested in the Bell 412 and 212.

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## Inception-06

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> approximately 500 Leopard 1A2 tanks that can be upgraded and Bell 412 and 212 are interesting.
> PA might be interested in the Bell 412 and 212.



Leopard 1is a excellent Tank, would suit perfect to replace all T-59 Tanks and shift the Type-59 to the eastern Border (FC).

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## Signalian

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> approximately 500 *Leopard 1A2 tanks that can be upgraded* and Bell 412 and 212 are interesting.
> PA might be interested in the Bell 412 and 212.





Inception-06 said:


> Leopard 1is a excellent Tank, *would suit perfect to replace all T-59 Tanks* and shift the Type-59 to the eastern Border (FC).


I can't believe you guys just said that.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> I can't believe you guys just said that.



Haha why ? It's just a wish.


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## MystryMan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Pakistan Army might not go for both these as Viper is under consideration. Its supposed to be better than M-113. PUMA 4x4 and 6x6 are not in use with PA hence highly unlikely they would be purchased.


some PUMAS were bought last year may be for FC.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Signalian said:


> I can't believe you guys just said that.


With the upgrade to a level of 1A6 level it would definitely be equal to the T-90's that the Russians wants to sell Pakistan. There can be some more upgrades available through Turkey as well specially after what Turkey faced in Syria.



MystryMan said:


> some PUMAS were bought last year may be for FC.


May be then FC with their limited budget be interested as no doubt these are quite capable for the western terrain.

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> Haha why ? It's just a wish.


M-198 can fire a projectile like an ATGM, its a laser guided projectile (copperhead) which hits tops of tanks and smokes them. The FOO(forward observation officer) lases the target, M-198 fires from more than 20 km away and the projectile is guided to hit enemy tanks.

This comes useful during pakistan infantry vs Indian Tank scenario.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> With the upgrade to a level of 1A6 level it would definitely be equal to the T-90's that the Russians wants to sell Pakistan. There can be some more upgrades available through Turkey as well specially after what Turkey faced in Syria.


Now im not disagreeing with you - but PA wont go for it.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Signalian said:


> This comes useful during pakistan infantry vs Indian Tank scenario.


We know that in the past this did come up in certain places moreover PA was out numbered yet they managed to arrest the march. Reasons were that PA had to constantly change gun positions so that the Indians were not able to identify the exact position. 

Today it would be very difficult to do with towed M-198 however if they are self propelled then its another ball game.

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## Signalian

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> We know that in the past this did come up in certain places moreover PA was out numbered yet they managed to arrest the march. Reasons were that PA had to constantly change gun positions so that the Indians were not able to identify the exact position.
> 
> Today it would be very difficult to do with towed M-198 however if they are self propelled then its another ball game.


Infantry is supported by towed guns since infantry digs in and has to hold position and defend it. So infantry is static thus SPGs are assigned to Mechanised and armored forces. Operating SPG's is much more costly than towed guns. Fuel and maintenance, just like Tanks and APC's. Its interesting to note that Artillery consumes more rounds than Tanks in combat, thus needs more supplies than tanks. 

There are many ways to conceal towed artillery from enemy.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> M-777 is an excellent weapon, can be lifted by heli. Which Heli in PA will lift M-777 or AH-4. IA has such helis (Mi-26 and CH-47).


Mi-8MTV-5 a.k.a Mi-17V-5 is capable of lifting 4500 kg load using sling.



Signalian said:


> There are many ways to conceal towed artillery from enemy.


I won't bank on this citing new CB radars,UAV's and Sats.
System like G-6 are better,though costly.


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## bananarepublic

MystryMan said:


> some PUMAS were bought last year may be for FC.



Isnt the PUMA being used by Pakistani UN peacekeepers

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## Signalian

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Mi-8MTV-5 a.k.a Mi-17V-5 is capable of lifting 4500 kg load using sling.


I hope PA spares Mi-17 for lifting Artillery while achieving desired altitude with sling or weight, highly doubtful though that Mi-17 will be shifted way up north for such Ops.. 


> I won't bank on this citing new CB radars,UAV's and Sats.
> System like G-6 are better,though costly.


Thats alright, disagreement gives rise to discussions.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Signalian said:


> I hope PA spares Mi-17 for lifting Artillery while achieving desired altitude with sling or weight, highly doubtful though that Mi-17 will be shifted way up north for such Ops..
> 
> Thats alright, disagreement gives rise to discussions.


Bell 412 and 212 are also available hence if PAA decided to procure these then US would not be very difficult. Moreover PAA must also standardise because at present they are operating what ever they can find which is a nightmare in terms of maintenance.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> hope PA spares Mi-17 for lifting Artillery while achieving desired altitude with sling or weight, highly doubtful though that Mi-17 will be shifted way up north for such Ops..


In war time they won't Mi's are already stretched alot even in peace time.We need more helos like Mi-17.Pumas are already ageing and many airframes are going through their end days.
May be we should go for chinese option.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bell 412 and 212 are also available hence if PAA decided to procure these then US would not be very difficult. Moreover PAA must also standardise because at present they are operating what ever they can find which is a nightmare in terms of maintenance.


Bell 412 and 212 are good for SAR,Medevac,Emergency resupply,VIP Transport and SoF insertion but can't be deployed like Mi's.


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## Zulfiqar

Signalian said:


> I hope PA spares Mi-17 for lifting Artillery while achieving desired altitude with sling or weight, highly doubtful though that Mi-17 will be shifted way up north for such Ops..
> 
> Thats alright, disagreement gives rise to discussions.



Many years ago when I was in pindi, I occasionally saw them slinging RR carrying jeeps.

Don't know how will they be used nowadays.

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## khanasifm

You can always break it into pieces and take in few trips no need to match world power like US, Russia etc with billions of $$$$ defense budget 
India can do what ever they went but need to feed people and build toilets rather then military

Pak can take care of social sector

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I am elated by PAs procurement spree of M113s and M109 howitzers. Getting M110 howitzers from Turkey will be an icing on the cake,the impact radius of these 8inch (203mm) howitzers is second to non.

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## Signalian

Inception-06 said:


> Haha why ? It's just a wish.


You have excellent knowledge in many ground weapon systems, you have shared with us in past and should continue to do so in future. Elevate your quality with informative posts. Thats why i replied you with M-198's information to take on MBT's with weapon on lines of ATGM but having range of 20 km+ instead of usual 4-8 km range of ATGM.

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## Signalian

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> I won't bank on this citing new CB radars,UAV's and Sats.
> System like G-6 are better,though costly.



WLRs themselves are key targets for the enemy. Therefore, efforts are be made to enhance their survivability through emission control policy and deployments. WLR's are radiating antennas, they invite fire from enemy in EW environment. WLR's need to be brought close to enemy to distinguish acoustics. There was this thread about Indian Army SWATHI WLR. You can see that it has to come with in range of Pakistani Artillery to operate effectively.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/how-...is-new-indian-land-radar-called-swati.481212/

Artillery battery/regimental deployment has cover of AD, this may range from 8 km up to 20 km. Any drone flying in this radius is shot down.

Artillery deployment is concealed from above. There are special coverings for artillery guns to conceal muzzle spark when firing rounds, acoustics, weather and terrain effects. Even if spotted from Satellite, enemy has to send forces from ground and air to destroy it which are very likely to be intercepted before they reach artillery positions.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> WLRs themselves are key targets for the enemy. Therefore, efforts are be made to enhance their survivability through emission control policy and deployments. WLR's are radiating antennas, they invite fire from enemy in EW environment. WLR's need to be brought close to enemy to distinguish acoustics. There was this thread about Indian Army SWATHI WLR. You can see that it has to come with in range of Pakistani Artillery to operate effectively.


No doubt they can be targeted through SEAD/DEAD by AF,but you see it work both ways.
EW would have problem against AESA systems.
Pak operates SLC-2 system which is AESA.


Signalian said:


> Artillery battery/regimental deployment has cover of AD, this may range from 8 km up to 20 km. Any drone flying in this radius is shot down.


Bharatis have been lately seen deploying state of the art drones designed by susralis for AD pen but good thing is that,they aren't huge in numbers.


Signalian said:


> Artillery deployment is concealed from above. There are special coverings for artillery guns to conceal muzzle spark when firing rounds, acoustics, weather and terrain effects. Even if spotted from Satellite, enemy has to send forces from ground and air to destroy it which are very likely to be intercepted before they reach artillery positions.


Nodoubt about it, but still HUMINT assets+sats when coupled with enemy Aircrafts firing standoff PGM's would pose serious threat to Arty pos's.


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## Signalian

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> No doubt they can be targeted through SEAD/DEAD by AF,but you see it work both ways.
> EW would have problem against AESA systems.
> Pak operates SLC-2 system which is AESA.
> 
> Bharatis have been lately seen deploying state of the art drones designed by susralis for AD pen but good thing is that,they aren't huge in numbers.
> 
> Nodoubt about it, but still HUMINT assets+sats when coupled with enemy Aircrafts firing standoff PGM's would pose serious threat to Arty pos's.




1. PAF wont be taking out Indian WLRs. Pakistan Army's own Recon elements (ground and air) will locate IA's WLRS and engage them through Artillery. 

3. IA wont be going after PA Artillery as priority. They will be more concerned about attacking PA infantry holding positions and armored warfare in the desert.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> 1. PAF wont be taking out Indian WLRs. Pakistan Army's own Recon elements (ground and air) will locate IA's WLRS and engage them through Artillery.


It would easy,if we deploy AR Missiles against them.There are lot of things unknown about Bharati WLR.I am bit concerned about enemy recent additons,they would cause huge problem for us.
P.S:-We should try developing guided 203mm shells+range extension for 203mm guns.Usrel increased range of their M-107's from 40 to 50+ km.


Signalian said:


> 3. IA wont be going after PA Artillery as priority. They will be more concerned about attacking PA infantry holding positions and armored warfare in the desert.


They would go after Arty citing the fact that it has always devastated them in past.


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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> 1. PAF wont be taking out Indian WLRs. Pakistan Army's own Recon elements (ground and air) will locate IA's WLRS and engage them through Artillery.
> 
> 3. IA wont be going after PA Artillery as priority. They will be more concerned about attacking PA infantry holding positions and armored warfare in the desert.



@Game.Invade @Signalian 
@Mangus Ortus Novem
@Armchair


An interesting fact is, that after we were capable of mass-producing our own MANPAD Anza-1 and 2 for the air defence, because during the beginning of the 1990s, the Pakistan army registered the shortness of mobile and pinpoint air defence and continued so in the area of Anti Tank missiles a la Bakthar Shikan and mastered in the field of armour through the development and production of the Alkhalid Tank, it seems there was never a strategic demand for an in house development or production of howitzer or a towed field gun. 

Despite that the Pakistan Army continued using the British WW2 The BL 5.5 inch Gun and the Ordnance QF 25-pounder till ca. 2002, years ago some members did write that, the guns are retired, which I don't agree because the Military history of Pakistan Army teaches another way.
It was not seen necessary to produce own Artillery guns, but to produce the ammunition for the captured Indian 25 Punders, the question here is, if these guns are really retired and not handed over to the Frontier Corps or stationed at the LOC, what will be happening to the tons of shells which P.O.F. produced over the period of 25 years. I question the retirement of these guns because the Pakistan Army lives the philosophy "It's the men behind the gun" as we have seen in the Kargil war, where the Army used WW2 Guns during the offensive and defensive operations. So in the Pakistan Army, nothing got wasted, neither the economical situation of the country would allow such privilege as the neighbouring Indian Army have, and so is the case for all other ca.500 Artillery pieces which have their origins from the WW2 purchased from the US or China (Russian soviet origin). 

It is not publicly known of any upgrades or updates of the Pakistani Artillery gun inventory, and I doubt that there was ever any or planed, again here it seems it was not seen necessary to standardise the inventory on the 155mm calibre as its the trend in the western and Indian Army, maybe the Army believes the Artillery can fulfil the task with the current inventory.

The latest artillery gun procurement was during the 1980s and 1990s for the M198 155mm and the D-30 122mm during the recent operations in the ongoing mountain warfare in western Pakistan. 

Under Musharraf era, there was seen the 155mm Turkish Panthers presented in a press release by the ISPR, it was labelled that it will be produced under license in Pakistan and there were plans to procure over 100 guns, but because off the shortcomings, thats the official statement, the procurement was stopped and maybe even the Artillery guns were shipped back Turkey !

For any new procurement, modernisation, or in house production, we should raise the Question which role will the towed Pakistani artillery play in a conventional Pak-Indo war, in my opinion after analysing the current development, it will take the defensive role, the offensive will be lead by the Self propelled Artillery, where Pakistan at the moment enjoys an advantage (which is only a question of time, as India is mass producing the Korean self-propelled 155 mm K-9 Thunder, which seems equal to our current SP-Inventory). 

As Pakistan has a very long border with India, and in a conventional war if it wants to gain any meters in Indian Punjab and Kashmir sector it needs massive and overhelming firepower, to overcome the Indian Anti-tank obstacles, Anti-tank trenches, Anti-tank mines, very large minefields, deep trenches and bunker which are constructed in many lines. If anyone has studied and understood the doctrine of the East German Army, Wehrmacht or soviet Army, the forces were in the same strategic path situation, a border to border war, where both sides have build up a massive defence wall over the past 70 years. The East Germany Army had to face the same task as today Pakistan, penetrate the enemy territory, breakthrough with Tank armies and capture high-value territory for negotiations till reinforcement from the east arrives, the difficulty in these tasks lied, that neither east Germany had the technologie nor, the budget to full fill this task. The Nato equipped west German Army had better technologies and equipment, more Division because all Nato allies were already stationed in west Germany.

So we find some major similarity here between Pakistans task and the east Germany mission to fight an overwhelming enemy and gain at the same time territory. The Procurement Artillery history of the East German army NVA can be compared with that of Pakistan, not retiring old Artillery systems to keep the numbers in inventory high, purchase used Artillery guns from the WW2 era of ex-soviet Russian arsenal and shortness in procuring modern systems. 

But come back to the question to the role of the Artillery in an offensive carried out by Pakistan against the Indian border strongholds, why its necessary to have modern Artillery in high numbers? 

The answer is simple to crush the Indian strongholds and make the way free for Infantry and Tanks, for this task Pakistan needs high calibre guns in high numbers, call it a massive and destructive firepower. I will not continue now to write about the East Germany NVA doctrine, how they planned to make a breakthrough the Nato lines with opening the battle on the ground with a massive artillery fire, because the would need a whole chapter here in PDF to be written (if anyone is interested then after my exams). But the conclusions is, towed artillery is cheaper to maintain and procure than SP-Artillery, its needed to crush the Indian stronghold lines along the Border and in the mountains, for that we need high calibre standard artillery in higher numbers, this can be archived by study and development of our artillery inventory and meet the demand of the Army through purchasing a system which can be produced in Pakistan.

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## Gryphon

HRK said:


> View attachment 579896
> 
> For the period of 2019-2021, Italy has put further 123 surplus M-109L on offer (source: official report page-25)



PA's aim right from the beginning was all Italian pcs, roughly 250 of them. The only obstacle that may emerge for the second deal is US govt. approval.



Signalian said:


> PA requirements keep changing. Once there was a requirement of hundreds of wheeled SPGs. Some were evaluated but PA has inducted M-109 only



Couldn't miss the opportunity of buying hundreds of M109s at lucrative prices, refurbished and delivered with quantities of spares. PA has done it perfectly right. Buy the guns and create a requirement. 



Signalian said:


> Tell this to Gryphon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He will be so happy and start updating records straightaway



So true.

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## Ahmad Bhutta

How many pieces we acquired so far ?


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## Riz

Ahmad Bhutta said:


> How many pieces we acquired so far ?


65


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## khanasifm

65/24 =2.7 ~ 3 regiments


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## Gryphon

Ahmad Bhutta said:


> How many pieces we acquired so far ?





Riz said:


> 65





khanasifm said:


> 65/24 =2.7 ~ 3 regiments



Delivery of 122 M109L SPHs completed early 2019.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> PA's aim right from the beginning was all Italian pcs, roughly 250 of them. The only obstacle that may emerge for the second deal is US govt. approval.
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't miss the opportunity of buying hundreds of M109s at lucrative prices, refurbished and delivered with quantities of spares. PA has done it perfectly right. Buy the guns and create a requirement.
> 
> 
> 
> So true.


Leonardo is also working on an upgrade path for the M109Ls that would turn them into 52-cal SPHs capable of firing guided rounds. So, basically, the PA can get a 155 mm/52-cal SPH at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Even if it's to buy new ones later on, what's the harm of getting 250 extra for really cheap?

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Leonardo is also working on an upgrade path for the M109Ls that would turn them into 52-cal SPHs capable of firing guided rounds. So, basically, the PA can get a 155 mm/52-cal SPH at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Even if it's to buy new ones later on, what's the harm of getting 250 extra for really cheap?


maybe they will market their GPS guided Vulcano too?

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## khanasifm

Gryphon said:


> Delivery of 122 M109L SPHs completed early 2019.



Approximate 5+ regiments if it’s 6 guns per battery and 4 batteries per regiment 

Approximately 7 regiments if there are 3 batteries with 6 guns Per regiment

Assuming two section of 20 per gun or about 350-450 strength per battalion including hq

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## khanasifm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army_Artillery_Corps

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## JPMM

khanasifm said:


> Approximate 5+ regiments if it’s 6 guns per battery and 4 batteries per regiment
> 
> Approximately 7 regiments if there are 3 batteries with 6 guns Per regiment
> 
> Assuming two section of 20 per gun or about 350-450 strength per battalion including hq


 I have seen SP Regiments with 12 M109 + 6 Type-59 130mm

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## Kompromat

Itan guns are in mint condition. Will serve PA well.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Leonardo is also working on an upgrade path for the M109Ls that would turn them into 52-cal SPHs capable of firing guided rounds. So, basically, the PA can get a 155 mm/52-cal SPH at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Even if it's to buy new ones later on, what's the harm of getting 250 extra for really cheap?


Army was aiming to acquire entire Italian stock of M109L. 1st batch has been delivered successfully, however, 2nd batch is currently struck due to payment issues. If we failed to rectify those issues then probably army will not be acquiring any more M109L from Italy.
These guns are in very good condition and I don't think army will consider any significant upgrade for time being.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tipu7 said:


> Army was aiming to acquire entire Italian stock of M109L. 1st batch has been delivered successfully, however, 2nd batch is currently struck due to payment issues. If we failed to rectify those issues then probably army will not be acquiring any more M109L from Italy.
> These guns are in very good condition and I don't think army will consider any significant upgrade for time being.


Is L comparable to the A5?

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## MystryMan

Tipu7 said:


> Army was aiming to acquire entire Italian stock of M109L. 1st batch has been delivered successfully, however, 2nd batch is currently struck due to payment issues. If we failed to rectify those issues then probably army will not be acquiring any more M109L from Italy.
> These guns are in very good condition and I don't think army will consider any significant upgrade for time being.


Can u elaborate on payment issue?
Thanks

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## Tipu7

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Is L comparable to the A5?


M109-A5 is definitely a better system. The Italian version has similar Hull configuration as M109A3, but the gun is 39 caliber compared to 23 caliber of older versions.
What is important for these systems is their condition which is very good, and price at which they are coming is very affordable. 


MystryMan said:


> Can u elaborate on payment issue?
> Thanks


Kickbacks.

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## MystryMan

Tipu7 said:


> M109-A5 is definitely a better system. The Italian version has similar Hull configuration as M109A3, but the gun is 39 caliber compared to 23 caliber of older versions.
> What is important for these systems is their condition which is very good, and price at which they are coming is very affordable.
> 
> Kickbacks.


Even in used equipment. Very disappointing.
We continuously hear of Officers court-martialled on various issues including corruption. It seems it didn't have the deterrence effect.

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## Signalian



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## HRK

Signalian said:


> View attachment 586902


some good visuals .....

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## Inception-06

HRK said:


> some good visuals .....



The Italian and US sp-guns use the same ammunition ?

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## HRK

Inception-06 said:


> The Italian and US sp-guns use the same anmminution ?


yes standard NATO rounds

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## Gryphon

JPMM said:


> I have seen SP Regiments with 12 M109 + 6 Type-59 130mm



*Div Arty (Armd Div)* = 3× SP Medium Regt's + 1× Med Regt

*Div Arty (Mech Div)* = 2× SP Medium Regt's + 1× Med Regt

~ _In Mech Div, the Indp Mech Bde Gp has an interesting structure: 1× Armd Regt + 1× MIB + 1× HAT Bn._

*Arty, IABG* = 1× SP Medium Regt

*Arty, Nowshera* = 1× SP Medium Regt

*Total* = 3+3+2+2+6+1 = 17× SP Medium Regt's. 
Pak acquired 152 M109A2 + 115 M109A5 and if the 12+6 arrangement is accurate, this should result approx. 22 regt's. So, where are the remaining regt's?

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## JPMM

Gryphon said:


> *Div Arty (Armd Div)* = 3× SP Medium Regt's + 1× Med Regt
> 
> *Div Arty (Mech Div)* = 2× SP Medium Regt's + 1× Med Regt
> 
> ~ _In Mech Div, the Indp Mech Bde Gp has an interesting structure: 1× Armd Regt + 1× MIB + 1× HAT Bn._
> 
> *Arty, IABG* = 1× SP Medium Regt
> 
> *Arty, Nowshera* = 1× SP Medium Regt
> 
> *Total* = 3+3+2+2+6+1 = 17× SP Medium Regt's.
> Pak acquired 152 M109A2 + 115 M109A5 and if the 12+6 arrangement is accurate, this should result approx. 22 regt's. So, where are the remaining regt's?



The M109A2s were in mixed SP Medium Regiments (6 in the ArmDivs and 6 in IABG), each had 12 M109A2+6 towed 130mm
The M109A5 came for the MechDivs, 6 full SP Medium Regiments (3 with each), each have 18 M109A5
Thats my guess!
​

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## Cuirassier

Well I have personally visited an SP unit at Kasur side, couldn't see any towed pieces then. Maybe things have changed? No idea.

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## JPMM

TF141 said:


> Well I have personally visited an SP unit at Kasur side, couldn't see any towed pieces then. Maybe things have changed? No idea.


When the Mech Divs were formed, they did it from at least two existing IABGs, these had T85IIAP tanks (probably sent to the 4 Inf Divs of V/XXXI Corps) and their SP Regiments were reequiped with M109A5. So their older M109A2s were retrofited and sent to replace existing towed guns in the remaning M109A2 SP Regiments.

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## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> ~ _In Mech Div, the Indp Mech Bde Gp has an interesting structure: 1× Armd Regt + 1× MIB + 1× HAT Bn._
> ?



That gives all round offensive and defensive capability. It’s actually a good combo to face IA IBG. 

45 MBT
50 APC
24 ATGM APC
24 APC

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## Signalian

JPMM said:


> The M109A2s were in mixed SP Medium Regiments (6 in the ArmDivs and 6 in IABG), each had 12 M109A2+6 towed 130mm
> The M109A5 came for the MechDivs, 6 full SP Medium Regiments (3 with each), each have 18 M109A5
> Thats my guess!
> ​



In PA, the SP regts don’t have towed pieces


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

IA we will get all of them .


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## khanasifm

Each regiment has on average 3x6 batteries or 4x6 batteries so 18-24 guns


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistan Ka Beta said:


> IA we will get all of them


Hopefully, they are remarkable guns.

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## IHK_PK

No further news in acquiring the next batch of surplus guns from Italy?


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## Gryphon

M109L in Pakistan!

This example belongs to SP Medium Regiment, Mechanized Brigade, 33 Division.

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## Cuirassier

Gryphon said:


> M109L in Pakistan!
> 
> This example belongs to SP Medium Regiment, Mechanized Brigade, 33 Division.


Is it 33 Div or the bde is 33 Bde. 33 Div is BLN-based, would be strange if it was to have an SP Med Regt.

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## Armchair

Given COVID and present crisis, isn't it time to push this deal through? Just shoot the fellows wanting kickbacks, what's wrong with them.

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## PanzerKiel

Cuirassier said:


> Is it 33 Div or the bde is 33 Bde. 33 Div is BLN-based, would be strange if it was to have an SP Med Regt.



It is 33 Division. Nothing strange nowadays.

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## Ymir

They'll likely be placed in storage (42 already are and just 14 are in active service), but Norway has 56 M109A3GNs that are being replaced by the South Korean K9, the first of which has already been delivered.











Like with its surplus F-16s, being phased out in favor of the F-35 (25 of which are now in service with the RNoAF), they might be worth looking into. These aren't especially new guns, having been acquired from West Germany between 1969-1971 and undergoing several rounds of upgrades in the 1980s and mid-2000s, but as augments to what Pakistan already has or as spare parts they could be attractive if the terms are right.





















I doubt Norway would want much for nearly 60 year old guns

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## Pakistani Fighter

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Hopefully, they are remarkable guns.


Is it comparable to K9 Vajra?


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## Ymir

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Is it comparable to K9 Vajra?



No. Take it from someone who was present during K9 trials in Norway - the K9 vastly out performs the M109 (the company I worked for at the time does a lot of work on the electronics featured on Norwegian and allied armor). Italy's former M109Ls are older A2/A3 models, just with Italian guns and with several upgrades, but are largely the same as when they first entered service in the 60s.

Of the surplus M109s Norway's M109A3GNs are the most advanced, on part with the M109A4/5. Newer variants like the M109 "KAWEST", offered by the Swiss company RUAG and having taken part in Norway's M109 replacement trials, is a fine gun. The K9 still outperforms it, but it's an A6 equivalent.






The Swiss KAWEST rated very highly among Norway's artillerists. The K9 just performed better.

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## Dazzler

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Is it comparable to K9 Vajra?



Delivers a similar punch at similar ranges at a fraction of cost.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Dazzler said:


> Delivers a similar punch at similar ranges at a fraction of cost.


*I agree, its the punch that counts and not the golden glove. *

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## Pakistani Fighter

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *I agree, its the punch that counts and not the golden glove. These surplus guns are much better than the Russian junk India has!*


2S1 Gvozdika is being replaced by K9

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistani Fighter said:


> 2S1 Gvozdika is being replaced by K9


It may take Indians a lot of time to master and induct the new system, and they are only buying 100 units of it,considering they have issues with China as well.

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## Pakistani Fighter

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> considering they have issues with China as well.


They have plenty of other Artillery


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistani Fighter said:


> They have plenty of other Artillery


Overall our Artillery Systems are much better than the Indians.

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## Aasimkhan

Can these older NATO standard 155mm guns fire chinese smart (GPS and Laser guided) Chinese 155mm munitions ?


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## Pakistani Fighter

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Overall our Artillery Systems are much better than the Indians.


Like have you researched? I did with Wikipedia and we were lacking both in quality and quantity


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Like have you researched?


*The bulk of our artillery Systems are of US origins. Their Guns are accurate and have a greater barrel life in them. We still even use the 203mm towed RANI TOOPS(M115), that still have a lot of life left in them. *

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## Cuirassier

PanzerKiel said:


> It is 33 Division. Nothing strange nowadays.


Everything has become confusing.

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## PanzerKiel

Cuirassier said:


> Everything has become confusing.



If the enemy is as confused, then our aim has been achieved.

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## Gryphon

Cuirassier said:


> Everything has become confusing.



Mechanized Brigades have been added to many Infantry Div's in the plains, in addition to the existing 3× Inf Brigades + Divisional Artillery.

33 Div is HQed at Quetta, but that doesn't mean its operations are limited to Balochistan.

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## ali_raza

PanzerKiel said:


> If the enemy is as confused, then our aim has been achieved.


can we upgrade our m109 to paladin?
is this option ever researched like we did with our legacy systems to a5 versions in musharaf time

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> Mechanized Brigades have been added to many Infantry Div's in the plains, in addition to the existing 3× Inf Brigades + Divisional Artillery.
> 
> 33 Div is HQed at Quetta, but that doesn't mean its operations are limited to Balochistan.


That is a massive punch!

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## ali_raza

last i heard these pieces recently bought from italy were in prestine condition barely used.
then why not take the whole lot.
or italians expect another deal 


PanzerKiel said:


> If the enemy is as confused, then our aim has been achieved.


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## Path-Finder

Dazzler said:


> Delivers a similar punch at similar ranges at a fraction of cost.


I don't think it does. The K9 is better than all existing M109 in Pakistani service.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050968148537692161
These are the Upgrades for US M109s Something parallel to this would be good for Pakistan.

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## Cuirassier

Gryphon said:


> Mechanized Brigades have been added to many Infantry Div's in the plains, in addition to the existing 3× Inf Brigades + Divisional Artillery.
> 
> 33 Div is HQed at Quetta, but that doesn't mean its operations are limited to Balochistan.


33 Div's imp aside - the effect of adding a Mech Bde would be impressive. Everything in abundance eh


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## ali_raza

Path-Finder said:


> I don't think it does. The K9 is better than all existing M109 in Pakistani service.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050968148537692161
> These are the Upgrades for US M109s Something parallel to this would be good for Pakistan.


range is not the only factor 
these r field arty systems which move with the other units so short range is just fine


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## Signalian

Path-Finder said:


> I don't think it does. The K9 is better than all existing M109 in Pakistani service.


if Range of projectile is the factor, then its not the deciding factor in maneuver warfare where K9 will be used opposite M-109.



ali_raza said:


> can we upgrade our m109 to paladin?


A new chinese or turkish SPG should be trialled instead.



Gryphon said:


> 33 Div is HQed at Quetta, but that doesn't mean its operations are limited to Balochistan.


In some books, its supposed to operate in 5-Corps Ops area, plugging gaps even, but then again who knows.

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## Aamir Hussain

Same is the case with Armoured elements stationed at Quetta. They are included in the Ops planning of 5 Corps.

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## Signalian

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Like have you researched? I did with Wikipedia and we were lacking both in quality and quantity


Quality is not always the features in specs, its the way a weapon is utilised in combat and produces results. Quantity is important in a few ways, especially when there are enough guns to support all troops, which Pakistan has in good numbers to cover both infantry and armor, while India clearly lacks in armored warfare. Pakistan has good numbers of SPGs to cover all armored formations be it division or brigade level. Pakistan infantry formations are lesser than Indian infantry formations, so supporting artillery guns will also be lesser in number. 

Deployment terrains are different, at some places its difficult to place 155 mm towed guns, while at some places mortars do the job easily due to better elevation angles. Some targets require heavy calibre weapon to take out in one or two shots where 203 mm will be used. Some 122mm artillery guns are easily traversed 360 deg without re-deployment even. 105 mm deployed in and around siachen area are useful and their ammunition is lighter so logistics is easier. So different calibres have advantages and constraints.

Artillery guns are not always numbers, range of projectile etc but they are also about strategic deployment, elevation angles, logistics of both guns and ammunition etc. These factors are overlooked when artillery is discussed. Effective and accurate fire by 6 guns is also useful than having 18 guns constantly pounding the same area and expending 3 times more ammunition.

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## Mumm-Ra

Signalian said:


> Quality is not always the features in specs, its the way a weapon is utilised in combat and produces results. Quantity is important in a few ways, especially when there are enough guns to support all troops, which Pakistan has in good numbers to cover both infantry and armor, while India clearly lacks in armored warfare. Pakistan has good numbers of SPGs to cover all armored formations be it division or brigade level. Pakistan infantry formations are lesser than Indian infantry formations, so supporting artillery guns will also be lesser in number.
> 
> Deployment terrains are different, at some places its difficult to place 155 mm towed guns, while at some places mortars do the job easily due to better elevation angles. Some targets require heavy calibre weapon to take out in one or two shots where 203 mm will be used. Some 122mm artillery guns are easily traversed 360 deg without re-deployment even. 105 mm deployed in and around siachen area are useful and their ammunition is lighter so logistics is easier. So different calibres have advantages and constraints.
> 
> Artillery guns are not always numbers, range of projectile etc but they are also about strategic deployment, elevation angles, logistics of both guns and ammunition etc. These factors are overlooked when artillery is discussed. Effective and accurate fire by 6 guns is also useful than having 18 guns constantly pounding the same area and expending 3 times more ammunition.



Good to see you back. You were sorely missed on the forum

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## HRK

As per 2018 report of Senate of Italy following is the Amount of Authorised Arms sales to Pakistan for the period of 2013-2018






[Link]

As far as we know agreement for M-109L was concluded in the year 2015 and all the transfers were completed till *Jan-2019* while the transfers were started in the *year 2017* so the approval for M-109L by Italian Authorities must be granted either in *2015 or in 2016.*

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> As per 2018 report of Senate of Italy following is the Amount of Authorised Arms sales to Pakistan for the period of 2013-2018
> 
> View attachment 673423
> 
> [Link]
> 
> As far as we know agreement for M-109L was concluded in the year 2015 and all the transfers were completed till *Jan-2019* while the transfers were started in the *year 2017* so the approval for M-109L by Italian Authorities must be granted either in *2015 or in 2016.*


Do we know the number of guns received?


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> Do we know the number of guns received?


122 or 124 I think ....

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## ARMalik

So PA already had 150 of these. Which mean 150 + 122 = 272 Total??

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## Vapour

Signalian said:


> Quality is not always the features in specs, its the way a weapon is utilised in combat and produces results. Quantity is important in a few ways, especially when there are enough guns to support all troops, which Pakistan has in good numbers to cover both infantry and armor, while India clearly lacks in armored warfare. Pakistan has good numbers of SPGs to cover all armored formations be it division or brigade level. Pakistan infantry formations are lesser than Indian infantry formations, so supporting artillery guns will also be lesser in number.
> 
> Deployment terrains are different, at some places its difficult to place 155 mm towed guns, while at some places mortars do the job easily due to better elevation angles. Some targets require heavy calibre weapon to take out in one or two shots where 203 mm will be used. Some 122mm artillery guns are easily traversed 360 deg without re-deployment even. 105 mm deployed in and around siachen area are useful and their ammunition is lighter so logistics is easier. So different calibres have advantages and constraints.
> 
> Artillery guns are not always numbers, range of projectile etc but they are also about strategic deployment, elevation angles, logistics of both guns and ammunition etc. These factors are overlooked when artillery is discussed. Effective and accurate fire by 6 guns is also useful than having 18 guns constantly pounding the same area and expending 3 times more ammunition.



What about more focus towards LOC-related procurements? Seems like IA has drawn ahead with towed artillery, through imports and "indigenous" production.

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## HRK

ARMalik said:


> So PA already had 150 of these. Which mean 150 + 122 = 272 Total??


150+115+122= 387

additionally 41 M-109A2 were acquired from Canada their Operational status is unknown, therefore our M-109 inventory could be _380 at minimum or upto +420_ *IF* Canadian M-109 SPH are also made operational

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## Yasser76

Also handy to know that HIT completely overhauls these and upgrades them domestically, so should stay relevant for the next 10-20 years or so

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## Signalian

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Overall our Artillery Systems are much better than the Indians.


Indian Army has acquired K-9 SP Arty, though short in numbers, it could prove to be an effective gun with armored forces.

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## HRK

Anyone aware about the status of further M-109L which were on offer .... ???

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> Indian Army has acquired K-9 SP Arty, though short in numbers, it could prove to be an effective gun with armored forces.


India is also going to acquire several hundred towed artillery guns from Israel. Which could be really bad for us.

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## Yasser76

Zarvan said:


> India is also going to acquire several hundred towed artillery guns from Israel. Which could be really bad for us.



Towed guns not a problem, Pak has many of these too. They are not the same as SPH


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## HRK

HRK said:


> 150+115+122= 387
> 
> additionally 41 M-109A2 were acquired from Canada their Operational status is unknown, therefore our M-109 inventory could be _380 at minimum or upto +420_ *IF* Canadian M-109 SPH are also made operational



As per SIPRI database till 2019 we have acquired 151 M-109L from Italy out of 245 on offer, which mean our fleet should be

152 [Originally acquired from USA during the period of 1981-1989]​115 [2nd batch acquired from USA during the period 2007-2010]​151 [3rd batch acquired from Italy during 2017-2019]​*418* [*excluding 40* acquired from Canada as their status is not clear]​

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## Inception-06

Inception-06 said:


> @Game.Invade @Signalian
> @Mangus Ortus Novem
> @Armchair
> 
> 
> An interesting fact is, that after we were capable of mass-producing our own MANPAD Anza-1 and 2 for the air defence, because during the beginning of the 1990s, the Pakistan army registered the shortness of mobile and pinpoint air defence and continued so in the area of Anti Tank missiles a la Bakthar Shikan and mastered in the field of armour through the development and production of the Alkhalid Tank, it seems there was never a strategic demand for an in house development or production of howitzer or a towed field gun.
> 
> Despite that the Pakistan Army continued using the British WW2 The BL 5.5 inch Gun and the Ordnance QF 25-pounder till ca. 2002, years ago some members did write that, the guns are retired, which I don't agree because the Military history of Pakistan Army teaches another way.
> It was not seen necessary to produce own Artillery guns, but to produce the ammunition for the captured Indian 25 Punders, the question here is, if these guns are really retired and not handed over to the Frontier Corps or stationed at the LOC, what will be happening to the tons of shells which P.O.F. produced over the period of 25 years. I question the retirement of these guns because the Pakistan Army lives the philosophy "It's the men behind the gun" as we have seen in the Kargil war, where the Army used WW2 Guns during the offensive and defensive operations. So in the Pakistan Army, nothing got wasted, neither the economical situation of the country would allow such privilege as the neighbouring Indian Army have, and so is the case for all other ca.500 Artillery pieces which have their origins from the WW2 purchased from the US or China (Russian soviet origin).
> 
> It is not publicly known of any upgrades or updates of the Pakistani Artillery gun inventory, and I doubt that there was ever any or planed, again here it seems it was not seen necessary to standardise the inventory on the 155mm calibre as its the trend in the western and Indian Army, maybe the Army believes the Artillery can fulfil the task with the current inventory.
> 
> The latest artillery gun procurement was during the 1980s and 1990s for the M198 155mm and the D-30 122mm during the recent operations in the ongoing mountain warfare in western Pakistan.
> 
> Under Musharraf era, there was seen the 155mm Turkish Panthers presented in a press release by the ISPR, it was labelled that it will be produced under license in Pakistan and there were plans to procure over 100 guns, but because off the shortcomings, thats the official statement, the procurement was stopped and maybe even the Artillery guns were shipped back Turkey !
> 
> For any new procurement, modernisation, or in house production, we should raise the Question which role will the towed Pakistani artillery play in a conventional Pak-Indo war, in my opinion after analysing the current development, it will take the defensive role, the offensive will be lead by the Self propelled Artillery, where Pakistan at the moment enjoys an advantage (which is only a question of time, as India is mass producing the Korean self-propelled 155 mm K-9 Thunder, which seems equal to our current SP-Inventory).
> 
> As Pakistan has a very long border with India, and in a conventional war if it wants to gain any meters in Indian Punjab and Kashmir sector it needs massive and overhelming firepower, to overcome the Indian Anti-tank obstacles, Anti-tank trenches, Anti-tank mines, very large minefields, deep trenches and bunker which are constructed in many lines. If anyone has studied and understood the doctrine of the East German Army, Wehrmacht or soviet Army, the forces were in the same strategic path situation, a border to border war, where both sides have build up a massive defence wall over the past 70 years. The East Germany Army had to face the same task as today Pakistan, penetrate the enemy territory, breakthrough with Tank armies and capture high-value territory for negotiations till reinforcement from the east arrives, the difficulty in these tasks lied, that neither east Germany had the technologie nor, the budget to full fill this task. The Nato equipped west German Army had better technologies and equipment, more Division because all Nato allies were already stationed in west Germany.
> 
> So we find some major similarity here between Pakistans task and the east Germany mission to fight an overwhelming enemy and gain at the same time territory. The Procurement Artillery history of the East German army NVA can be compared with that of Pakistan, not retiring old Artillery systems to keep the numbers in inventory high, purchase used Artillery guns from the WW2 era of ex-soviet Russian arsenal and shortness in procuring modern systems.
> 
> But come back to the question to the role of the Artillery in an offensive carried out by Pakistan against the Indian border strongholds, why its necessary to have modern Artillery in high numbers?
> 
> The answer is simple to crush the Indian strongholds and make the way free for Infantry and Tanks, for this task Pakistan needs high calibre guns in high numbers, call it a massive and destructive firepower. I will not continue now to write about the East Germany NVA doctrine, how they planned to make a breakthrough the Nato lines with opening the battle on the ground with a massive artillery fire, because the would need a whole chapter here in PDF to be written (if anyone is interested then after my exams). But the conclusions is, towed artillery is cheaper to maintain and procure than SP-Artillery, its needed to crush the Indian stronghold lines along the Border and in the mountains, for that we need high calibre standard artillery in higher numbers, this can be archived by study and development of our artillery inventory and meet the demand of the Army through purchasing a system which can be produced in Pakistan.



@Huffal here is one article written by me and when you Google:”Pakistan Artillery Kargil war” you will find tons of pictures of the 5.5inch gun in firing against Indian positions!

Lol 😂 after reading my article again, I
Must have been on adrenaline because of engineering exams, which I passed thanks god, even by spending to
much time in PDF.

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## Oldman1

Just read that Italy is providing some M109s to Ukraine. Glad you guys didn't get all of it.

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## MIRauf

Oldman1 said:


> Just read that Italy is providing some M109s to Ukraine. Glad you guys didn't get all of it.


PA picked up the cream of the crop, sure, fine others can have the rest.

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## Oldman1

MIRauf said:


> PA picked up the cream of the crop, sure, fine others can have the rest.


How many did PA get anyways?


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## MIRauf

Oldman1 said:


> How many did PA get anyways?


Post #440 by HRK, previous page, 120+

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## Oldman1

MIRauf said:


> Post #440 by HRK, previous page, 120+


Was Pakistan planning to get more or they were buying Chinese versions and decided to stop buying more?


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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Oldman1 said:


> Just read that Italy is providing some M109s to Ukraine. Glad you guys didn't get all of it.


HRK >>> 

As per SIPRI database till 2019 we have acquired 151 M-109L from Italy out of 245 on offer, which mean our fleet should be

152 [Originally acquired from USA during the period of 1981-1989]
115 [2nd batch acquired from USA during the period 2007-2010]
151 [3rd batch acquired from Italy during 2017-2019]
*418* [*excluding 40* acquired from Canada as their status is not clear]


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## MIRauf

Oldman1 said:


> Was Pakistan planning to get more or they were buying Chinese versions and decided to stop buying more?


Sorry, I do not know, I are the wrong person to ask as have no inside tracks in the PA. I answered what I could based on the previous posts here.


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## HRK

Oldman1 said:


> Was Pakistan planning to get more or they were buying Chinese versions and decided to stop buying more?





MIRauf said:


> Sorry, I do not know, I are the wrong person to ask as have no inside tracks in the PA. I answered what I could based on the previous posts here.


Based on opens source information Pakistan is not buying other Track Artillery system, Chinese artillery was a Truck mounter SH-15 artillery system which we bought around 115 pieces, as per last report related to SH-15 deliveries were not completed till last year.

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