# Leopard 2A7+ for Saudi Arabia



## Mosamania

Germany to sell tanks to Saudi Arabia: report
(AFP)  8 hours ago
BERLIN  Germany has allowed the sale of 200 Leopard tanks to Saudi Arabia after decades of blocking heavy weapons sales to the kingdom, the Der Spiegel said Saturday.
The federal security council approved the sale last week, the weekly news magazine said without citing sources.
The Saudis want to buy 200 Leopard 2A7+ tanks in an order potentially worth billions of euros to companies Kraus-Maffei and Rheinmetall, Der Spiegel said.
The kingdom was in talks with the Spanish subsidiary of General Dynamics about buying their version of the Leopard tank, but the major portion of the order will land with the Germans, the magazine said.
Since the 1980's, Germany has blocked the sale of Leopard 2 tanks to Saudi Arabia, afraid the equipment would be used against Israel.
The Saudis are also in talks with US companies for 60 billion dollars worth (41 billion euros) of defence equipment that would become the largest US contract ever.
The order is to include 84 new F-15 fighter jets and 178 combat helicopters.





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## Luftwaffe

Good Tanks, this will also finally prove if contract is sign that saudi arabia is no longer looking into Pakistan's Al-Khalid Tanks.


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## Mosamania

Luftwaffe said:


> Good Tanks, this will also finally prove if contract is sign that saudi arabia is no longer looking into Pakistan's Al-Khalid Tanks.


 
Someone in the Saudi forum said something about buying a number of Al-Khalid tanks and giving it to Morocco as a gift so it would hit two birds with one stone. He did not provide a link however.


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## Khalid Al-Qurashi

Gotta love the Leopard . It's one of the best if not the best tank ever . 

However, I feel a bit let down as all of our major military deals include a technology transfer part amounting to at least 30 % of the total value . So why not this one ?


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## Safriz

Khalid Al-Qurashi said:


> Gotta love the Leopard . It's one of the best if not the best tank ever .
> 
> However, I feel a bit let down as all of our major military deals include a technology transfer part amounting to at least 30 % of the total value . So why not this one ?


 
germans blocked them for decades...how can the saudis forget all that and buy defence equipment from a country who can block them again and are unreliable in this matter......

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## silko

Luftwaffe said:


> Good Tanks, this will also finally prove if contract is sign that saudi arabia is no longer looking into Pakistan's Al-Khalid Tanks.


 
well, you also need to know that a country doesnt buy tanks just to buy it! 

they choose the tank wich can adopt the enviroment and the situation best. i could say "oh well god, this means saudis wont buy Altay MBT", that isnt the case. they buy what they need to, although what mosamania said about getting them and give them as gifts to morocco was nice to hear!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

No offence but these will be placed in some desert n rot with time.


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## Tshering22

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No offence but these will be placed in some desert n rot with time.


 
These are a safeguard against Iran if it tries to get unpredictable anytime. What are you expecting Saudis to do with them? Invade Israel with German weapons? That would mean immediate clampdown on the supply of these weapons again.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tshering22 said:


> These are a safeguard against Iran if it tries to get unpredictable anytime. What are you expecting Saudis to do with them? Invade Israel with German weapons? That would mean immediate clampdown on the supply of these weapons again.


 
KSA wouldnt go to war even in the next 2000 years....... These r just for show just like their jets etc which r flown by foriegn militaries.


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## nomi007

i think Pakistan to request Saudis for al-khalid tank
to support its economy

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## lem34

I am not usually a war monger but I would love to see saudies in a war with anyone. And some of these weapons used in anger. Buying expensive weapons does not necessarily mean much if you dont have the perssonel to use them. I have a english person who works for me and in the eighties he used to work for marconi and gec and he used to go as a trainer/teacher for the radars installed in saudies and he stated that saudies did not make good students. I wander if they have changed much today.


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## Mosamania

So we do not have the right to defend ourselves?? The MBT issue we have been hacing for some time. we bought the M1A2s but they were too expensive gas guzzling and the Americans downgraded them. (No DU) layer. 

So we talked to Spain to give us the best tank out there without any downgrading. While most people here are furious with the idea that we are arming ourselves like we are going to be their enemy one day. I am actually happy that we are getting what is reputed to be the best tank in the world. to replace our pattons amd the AMX-30s we have. and let those be kept as reserve.


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## silko

Mosamania said:


> So we do not have the right to defend ourselves?? The MBT issue we have been hacing for some time. we bought the M1A2s but they were too expensive gas guzzling and the Americans downgraded them. (No DU) layer.
> 
> So we talked to Spain to give us the best tank out there without any downgrading. While most people here are furious with the idea that we are arming ourselves like we are going to be their enemy one day. I am actually happy that we are getting what is reputed to be the best tank in the world. to replace our pattons amd the AMX-30s we have. and let those be kept as reserve.


 
3 questions.

- isn't m1a2 abrams the worlds best tank

- does spain produce any mbt?


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## Mosamania

silko said:


> 3 questions.
> 
> - isn't m1a2 abrams the worlds best tank
> 
> - does spain produce any mbt?


 
1-m1a2s after years of trials have been found that the version we got from the USA was not only downgraded but it had also high maintenance cost. 
2-Spain makes the Leopard 2 under license from Germany since the Germans have always had a rule not to supply ME countries with weapons we are going to get through spain this articles only says that germany gave its blessings on the deal. The Saudi Forum after some digging say that we are not getting 200 but 264 Tanks.

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## Zabaniyah

silko said:


> 3 questions.
> 
> - isn't m1a2 abrams the worlds best tank
> 
> - does spain produce any mbt?


 
M1 Abrams engine really sucks a lot of gas. That's gas turbine engines for ya.

Many EU countries have licensed production of the Leo 2.

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## lcloo

Great Tank, Saudi always go for the best.

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## Desert Fox

Aeronaut said:


> Good stuff , i will be happy if *we* could use these tanks if *we* get invaded again.


 
What do you mean "we"? Pakistan isn't getting these tanks, the Saudis are unless of course there is something you know that we don't?

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## Tshering22

Aeronaut said:


> Good stuff , i will be happy if we could use these tanks if we get invaded again.


 
Excuse me? Since when did you start using Saudi tanks? In all our wars, how many times has Saudi Arabia and UAE forces lent their chief assets to you? Listen, you need to come out of this alliance dream. In a war, there are going to be only two people who are facing: you and whoever is your enemy. Just like now. You call China this and that. How much is the PLA bleeding for you? Or for that matter US bleeding for you? No one. In the midst of a war, it is only you and what you have that will come to use. Cold war era was different because there were suppliers who would get the benefit of testing those days' weapons that evolved into the flashy upgrades. In those days it was Communism vs Capitalism. What benefit would Saudis get in terms of material or strategic advantage? They are neither developers of these tanks nor are they going to get any strategic gain against us.

Please mate, come out of your thinking that everyone will come to aid you against a sure shot enemy i.e. us. We are not going to be invading you. We don't want to slow our economic growth.

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## Luftwaffe

Always fascinated with German equipment. 

Tshering22...don't be so efficient he said "If we could"

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## Zabaniyah

Germany always made the best tanks. 

They invented Blitzkrieg after all


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## Mosamania

I really really hope there is some ToT in this deal. All our deals recently had ToT in them so it will save us a lot of trouble for when one day we develop our own tank.

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## silko

what is the differences between the models? like for example the difference between leopard 2a4 and 2a7?


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## BordoEnes

silko said:


> what is the differences between the models? like for example the difference between leopard 2a4 and 2a7?



The leopard2A7 uses the Much more powerfull L/55 120mm Barrel while Leopard2A4 uses the smaller L/44 barrel. 
And of course there is no doubt the Leopard2A7 is much more advanced then Leopard2A4. 
The Leopard2A7 also have an Second Vision camera above its turret while the Leopard2A4 only have the one of the Driver.

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## BordoEnes

Great boost for the Saudi army Btw great news!!

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## United

Congrats to Saudi if this goes well, Leopard 2A7 is a Main battle tank for urban operations as u can understand why Saudi has opted for this Tank has been designed specificly with the rich experience of IRAQ making it an Urban KING.

What will be good is the TOT part if its done we would love to see this with a Saudi army 







Al Khalid is great tank and Pakistan should develop it into a tank which friends envy and enemies fear.

If Al Khalid develops to the next gen version the first customer will definitely be the Sauds


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## ziaulislam

saudis always go for the most expensive thing..because per capita they have the highest exports!!


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## A.Muqeet khan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> KSA wouldnt go to war even in the next 2000 years....... These r just for show just like their jets etc which r flown by foriegn militaries.



may be may be not but who are we to predict the future thus saying the unknown with this much conviction


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Khalid Al-Qurashi said:


> Gotta love the Leopard . It's one of the best if not the best tank ever .
> 
> *However, I feel a bit let down as all of our major military deals include a technology transfer part amounting to at least 30 % of the total value . So why not this one ?*


 

The &#8220;Leopard 2A7&#8221; was specially selected by KSA for in the future directly interact with the technological industrial defense of his ally Turkey. From whom (Turkey), KSA will be customer of &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; and subsequently just after industrial partner when will be fully completed.





*Leopard 2A7*






*
Leopard 2A4 Tank Modernization by Aselsan (Turkey)*
*Leopard 2NG-Next Generation (Left), Leopard 2A4 (Right)
*

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## Bubblegum Crisis

*Aselsan claims that Leopard 2NG (Next Generation) is advanced than Leopard 2A6.* (Thanks you for this information cabatli_53)









*Altay*

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## Bubblegum Crisis

South Korea Next Generation Tank XK2 - YouTube



Soon in the futur Altay Tank...

*K-2 Tank APS (Active Protection System)
3D search & track radar / thermal search & track*







*Russia Metis-M1 interception slowly*







*
APS (Active Protection System) testing against RPG-7 and
Metis-M ATGM (Anti-tank guided missile) or also Kornet ATGM (Anti-tank guided missile)*












*Explosive projectile interceptor (blast effect)*

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## Bubblegum Crisis

*See also link old post &#8220;FNSS Saudi factory&#8221; military industrial collaboration Turkey with KSA (Thanks you Mosamania):*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/175145-fnss-saudi-factory.html



The manufacturing process of &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; will be almost similar to this.


*Modernization M1 Abrams:*

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## 500

Why Saudis just dont replace M1 gas turbine with MB833 power pack? It should not be too complicated.


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## ihealugo

before it be good for SA it will be good for Spain and Germany industries, they will earn their 5 year money with this project 
i can't see the tank image, is it this?









but i think it was better that SA waited for some years(5-6) so SA would by new tanks because i think in next decade these tanks will be out of service , but it's their choice... and if they want that these tank work good they must learn to upgrade it themselve


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## Bubblegum Crisis

500 said:


> Why Saudis just dont replace M1 gas turbine with MB833 power pack? It should not be too complicated.



Another question. Why Israel has modernized his &#8220;Merkava III Tank&#8221; to new standard &#8220;Merkava IV Tank&#8221; instead of just replace by the new &#8220;M1A2 Abrams&#8221;? Of course, we all know the answer. To preserve fully its military strategic freedom.

We want now our own military strategic total freedom. And now, we will do everything what to for this.

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## Oldman1

ihealugo said:


> before it be good for SA it will be good for Spain and Germany industries, they will earn their 5 year money with this project
> i can't see the tank image, is it this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but i think it was better that SA waited for some years(5-6) so SA would by new tanks because i think in next decade these tanks will be out of service , but it's their choice... and if they want that these tank work good they must learn to upgrade it themselve



Theres no major improvement in tank development that requires waiting a few more years for the next generation of tanks. The Leo 2 has been upgraded many times to keep up with the competition and just by adding active protection system would keep it ahead in foreseeable future.


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## Bubblegum Crisis

ihealugo said:


> before it be good for SA it will be good for Spain and Germany industries, they will earn their 5 year money with this project
> 
> ...
> 
> but i think it was better that SA waited for some years(5-6) so SA would by new tanks because i think in next decade these tanks will be out of service , but it's their choice... and if they want that these tank work good they must learn to upgrade it themselve




Need Help? Confused?
I repeat specially for you.

*The &#8220;Leopard 2A7&#8221; was specially selected by KSA for in the future directly interact with the technological industrial defense of his ally Turkey. From whom (Turkey), KSA will be customer of &#8220;Altay Tank&#8221; and subsequently just after industrial partner when will be fully completed.*


*See all links :*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-2.html#post2995723

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-2.html#post2995733

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2995752

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2995757

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## BronzePlaque

Good news..Saudi army is getting stronger day by day..Its always nice to have such strong ally in ME

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## ihealugo

i meant upgrades for anti chemical, anti neutron radations etc... i don't think that leopard have these? i am just asking , and i'm sure in the next decade the whole guidance systems of tanks will change, but we need to wait for 10 years...

sorry i can't see the links, are they youtube? it's filtered in iran


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## Thomas

Aryan_B said:


> I am not usually a war monger but I would love to see saudies in a war with anyone. And some of these weapons used in anger. Buying expensive weapons does not necessarily mean much if you dont have the perssonel to use them. I have a english person who works for me and in the eighties he used to work for marconi and gec and he used to go as a trainer/teacher for the radars installed in saudies and he stated that saudies did not make good students. I wander if they have changed much today.



Don't be so blinded by your hatered for anyone that is friendly with the US. the Saudi's fought extremely well during the battle of of Khafji in the Gulf War. 

Battle of khafji - 1991 gulf war (desert storm) - YouTube

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## Bubblegum Crisis

ihealugo said:


> i meant upgrades for anti chemical, anti neutron radations etc... i don't think that leopard have these?


 
Yes, all the latest generation of Leopard tanks (including Leopard 2A7 and Leopard 2NG-Next Generation) possess the protections against Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) threats, as the Leopard 2 is equipped with a NBC over pressurization system which provides up to 4 mbar (0.004 kp/cm2) over-pressure inside the vehicle.


*See link:*
Main Battle Tank - Leopard 2




ihealugo said:


> i am just asking , and i'm sure in the next decade the whole guidance systems of tanks will change, but we need to wait for 10 years...



No problem, our ally Turkey has already done all the updates on the &#8220;Leopard 2A4 Tank&#8221; to new standard &#8220;Leopard 2NG&#8221; (Next Generation). They have all the necessary expertise and will continue without difficulties to make those updates.

*Leopard 2A4 Tank Modernization by Aselsan (Turkey)*
*Leopard 2NG-Next Generation (Left), Leopard 2A4 (Right)*







*See links :*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-2.html#post2995723

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-2.html#post2995733

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## Bubblegum Crisis

Translation help?

Google Translate

*Link: *Google Translate


*Leopard tank&#305;, Aselsan ile ça&#287; atlad&#305;*

*See link:*
Ekonom




ihealugo said:


> sorry i can't see the links, are they youtube? it's filtered in iran



I pity you really. Skip hello to great guide Khamenei and his crazy fellow mullahs.^^

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## Mercenary

Why are the Saudis diversifying their Tank forces?

Won't it be harder for them to maintain 3 different tanks and also training the crews how to use and maintain these tanks and developing a battle doctrine around these tanks.

They have the American Abrams Tank, the Russian T-90 and now the German Leopard Tank.

What is the Saudi thinking behind this?

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## Axa-

silko said:


> what is the differences between the models? like for example the difference between leopard 2a4 and 2a7?



2A7 is the latest model. Most advanced.


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## 500

Bubblegum Crisis said:


> Another question. Why Israel has modernized his &#8220;Merkava III Tank&#8221; to new standard &#8220;Merkava IV Tank&#8221; instead of just replace by the new &#8220;M1A2 Abrams&#8221;? Of course, we all know the answer. To preserve fully its military strategic freedom.
> 
> We want now our own military strategic total freedom. And now, we will do everything what to for this.


You only prove my point: better to modernise the existing tank in inventory, then buying something new.

Overall Abrams is better platform than Leo.



silko said:


> what is the differences between the models? like for example the difference between leopard 2a4 and 2a7?


*Leopard 2A5:*
- add on turret front armor.
- new gun with improved braking system that allows firing DM53 rounds.
- new sight for commander with independent thermal device.
- gunners sight is moved to turret roof.
- GPS navigation.

*Leopard 2A6:*
- L/55 gun instead of L/44.

*Leopard 2A6EX*
- add on front hull armor.
- Battle management system.

*Leopard 2A7*
- add on turret side and hull side armor.
- add on mine protection.
- RCWS machine gun.


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## Bubblegum Crisis

500 said:


> You only prove my point: better to modernise the existing tank in inventory, then buying something new.




Or how leak the disturbing truth... Not between us. Please just a little serious my friend.




500 said:


> Overall Abrams is better platform than Leo.




It's just extremely funny.

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## T-Rex

Mosamania said:


> Germany to sell tanks to Saudi Arabia: report
> (AFP)  8 hours ago
> BERLIN  Germany has allowed the sale of 200 Leopard tanks to Saudi Arabia after decades of blocking heavy weapons sales to the kingdom, the Der Spiegel said Saturday.
> The federal security council approved the sale last week, the weekly news magazine said without citing sources.
> The Saudis want to buy 200 Leopard 2A7+ tanks in an order potentially worth billions of euros to companies Kraus-Maffei and Rheinmetall, Der Spiegel said.
> The kingdom was in talks with the Spanish subsidiary of General Dynamics about buying their version of the Leopard tank, but the major portion of the order will land with the Germans, the magazine said.
> Since the 1980's, Germany has blocked the sale of Leopard 2 tanks to Saudi Arabia, afraid the equipment would be used against Israel.
> The Saudis are also in talks with US companies for 60 billion dollars worth (41 billion euros) of defence equipment that would become the largest US contract ever.
> The order is to include 84 new F-15 fighter jets and 178 combat helicopters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


*
Why not? After all, SA is another shining example of uncle sam's democracy! We should all cheer and say 'hail Marry'.*


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## Zarvan

Mosamania said:


> Germany to sell tanks to Saudi Arabia: report
> (AFP)  8 hours ago
> BERLIN  Germany has allowed the sale of 200 Leopard tanks to Saudi Arabia after decades of blocking heavy weapons sales to the kingdom, the Der Spiegel said Saturday.
> The federal security council approved the sale last week, the weekly news magazine said without citing sources.
> The Saudis want to buy 200 Leopard 2A7+ tanks in an order potentially worth billions of euros to companies Kraus-Maffei and Rheinmetall, Der Spiegel said.
> The kingdom was in talks with the Spanish subsidiary of General Dynamics about buying their version of the Leopard tank, but the major portion of the order will land with the Germans, the magazine said.
> Since the 1980's, Germany has blocked the sale of Leopard 2 tanks to Saudi Arabia, afraid the equipment would be used against Israel.
> The Saudis are also in talks with US companies for 60 billion dollars worth (41 billion euros) of defence equipment that would become the largest US contract ever.
> The order is to include 84 new F-15 fighter jets and 178 combat helicopters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


Saudi should try to get them with TOT and also should train their soldiers so they can use them well by the are these tanks for SANG or Saudi Army ?


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## RKhan

Lol some new toys for the Saudis to park in their driveway.


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Zarvan said:


> Saudi should try to get them with TOT and also should train their soldiers so they can use them well by the are these tanks for SANG or Saudi Army ?




*See all links :
*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-2.html#post2995723

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-2.html#post2995733

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2995752

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-3.html#post2995757


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## 500

Bubblegum Crisis said:


> Or how leak the disturbing truth... Not between us. Please just a little serious my friend.


Can you provide any argument?



> It's just extremely funny.


Its fact. Abrams has fully separated ammo and better armor.


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## Ottoman-Turk

SA is diversifying their needs which is clever , i hope they get Altay tank , and as time goes on we will upgrade them and even maybe give them selling rights as we develop Altay 1 , 2 ,3 etc

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## Serpentine

Tshering22 said:


> These are a safeguard against Iran if it tries to get unpredictable anytime. What are you expecting Saudis to do with them? Invade Israel with German weapons? That would mean immediate clampdown on the supply of these weapons again.



Since when Iran and Saudi Arabia share borders?Maybe they want to move these tanks through Persian Gulf? It is like Iran buying tanks to defend itself especially against Japan.Doesn't make any sense
It's is very welcome if some members think a little bit before posting here.


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## Bubblegum Crisis

Ottoman-Turk said:


> SA is diversifying their needs which is clever , i hope they get Altay tank , and as time goes on we will upgrade them and even maybe give them selling rights as we develop Altay 1 , 2 ,3 etc



We will produce and will upgrade all the future entire series of Altay Tank together.

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## Banu Umayyah

Era_923 said:


> Since when Iran and Saudi Arabia share borders?Maybe they want to move these tanks through Persian Gulf? It is like Iran buying tanks to defend itself especially against Japan.Doesn't make any sense
> It's is very welcome if some members think a little bit before posting here.


I know Iran is weak, but don't you think we will need tanks when we liberate Ahwaz after we conquer Baghdad?


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## Mosamania

Banu Umayyah said:


> I know Iran is weak, but don't you think we will need tanks when we liberate Ahwaz after we conquer Baghdad?



Love your imagination.

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## OrionHunter

Good! But who's manning all these weapon systems that SA is importing, like there's no tomorrow? Do Saudis like operating in 50 degree Celsius environments considering that they're used to the good life?


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## Banu Umayyah

Mosamania said:


> Love your imagination.


Only the truth brother, only the truth



OrionHunter said:


> Good! But who's manning all these weapon systems that SA is importing, like there's no tomorrow? Do Saudis like operating in 50 degree Celsius environments considering that they're used to the good life?


Leopard 2A7+ has air conditioning


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## opz

Era_923 said:


> Since when Iran and Saudi Arabia share borders?Maybe they want to move these tanks through Persian Gulf? It is like Iran buying tanks to defend itself especially against Japan.Doesn't make any sense
> It's is very welcome if some members think a little bit before posting here.



*looooolz , really !? 
plz just tell me ur kidding , for ur information hun . .

K.S.A policy does not look to Iran as an adversary worthy of respect, Saudi Arabia try to build economic strength and military power to ascend to the summit with the Giants  

and about that ' It is like Iran buying tanks to defend itself especially against Japan ' , no u wrong , the earliest expression is like ALIENS vs AFRICA 

and best regards to turkish brother . . *​

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## twilight

@ opz



> K.S.A policy does not look to Iran as an adversary worthy of respect, Saudi Arabia try to build economic strength and military power to ascend to the summit with the Giants
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/118240-leopard-2a7-saudi-arabia-4.html#ixzz1x2PTeo4I



you can't "ascend to summit with the giants" with their Owen weapons and technology ....


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## Bubblegum Crisis

twilight said:


> you can't "ascend to summit with the giants" with their Owen weapons and technology ....




Of course, fully yes, yes, yes...


*See old link:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey...eally-saudi-turkish-divide-2.html#post2974203


continuation...

*Part 2b:*
*
KSA industrial defense : Project Simoom*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/179707-ksa-industrial-defense-project-simoom.html


*Saudi Arabian Typhoons to get capability boost+ ToT*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/180515-saudi-arabian-typhoons-get-capability-boost-tot.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/180515-saudi-arabian-typhoons-get-capability-boost-tot-2.html



And this is just the beginning.


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## opz

twilight said:


> @ opz
> 
> 
> 
> you can't "ascend to summit with the giants" with their Owen weapons and technology ....



*everybody know this facts , if u want create strong country , the first thing , work on the country's economy to make it strong , and after that build ur army . . 
this is the way we went to in order to build a developed country , and see to K.S.A before 10 years just , and where we are now , we are member in [ Group of Twenty ] , in other word stronger 20 economy , with we brother turkish :







for more information writ in uncle google : 

Group of Twenty 

and i hope u enjoyed when u reading 
of course thats not enough for us , and we know they r still in the beginning of the road . . 

after that come to me and talk about economy  !?

second point in ur words is weapons , now i will try shorten as much as i can , cuz talking about the Iranian weapons makes me laugh



like comedy movie . . 

Can you believe your country when it tells you that it was made in this week's system is better than defense system S300 does not go only a week and then tell your government that it has almost finished building a nuclear submarine is the best of its kind , of course, without all the old products such as the U.S. military aircraft F-5 when your country has a different paint to paint the aircraft and it became a stealth , and challenging the best aircraft of the fifth generation F-22 !! 

maybe the devils help yours in this mission 

hey man , if this lies deceive yours , the outside ur country , people are not stupid ..

i apologize for my talk like this way , but when i remember tha Iran is the cause of misfortunes the Middle East lose my balance in the talk like gentlemen* ​

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## Sharki

Good acquisition.. Mabrouk for Saudi.

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## bdslph

the Leopard 2A7 is a good buy for the Saudi i would say at least they didn't waste the money 

but i think they are panicking and overeating over Iran i think that is why they are buying a lot of arms 
Saudi don't worry about Iran


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## Zarvan

bdslph said:


> the Leopard 2A7 is a good buy for the Saudi i would say at least they didn't waste the money
> 
> but i think they are panicking and overeating over Iran i think that is why they are buying a lot of arms
> Saudi don't worry about Iran


Do you seriously think they are equipping themselves for Iran Iran is just a drama their main enemy will always be Israel and they know for fact

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## Jacek_68

Yet another Leopard 2A4 upgrade was presented by Rhinemetall to Polish Army as possible configuration for Leopard 2PL. See more on Defence24 Polish portal.


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## DARKY

500 said:


> Its fact. Abrams has fully separated ammo and better armor.


 
We cannot say better ammo.... Just because It uses DU instead of Tungsten... both M829a3 and DM63 are good... DM63 perhaps better... since it is modified DM53.

Besides that Leo has NERA panels as well as a more powerful gun.

A better comparison would be M1A2SEP...and not M1A2.


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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> Do you seriously think they are equipping themselves for Iran Iran is just a drama their main enemy will always be Israel and *they know for fact*




Who knows for a fact???
Where are these facts when the actions reported have been quite the opposite..
When the Saudis have not spared a seconds chance to undermine Irani interests(and vice versa).. 
Even discussing the tacit ignorance if Israeli air strikes against Iran cross its airspace.

Optimism knows no bounds apparently.

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## Tshering22

Era_923 said:


> Since when Iran and Saudi Arabia share borders?Maybe they want to move these tanks through Persian Gulf? It is like Iran buying tanks to defend itself especially against Japan.Doesn't make any sense
> It's is very welcome if some members think a little bit before posting here.



You don't share a tank but you both do share a rather visible rivalry in the region that no one can deny. All the "brotherhood" talks are good on the forum but on the world stage, the real situation counts.

If you had thought yourself before posting this and after reading so many threads on this forum, you'd have known that you don't really need borders to go for a war. A spark is all it requires.


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## Tshering22

Zarvan said:


> Do you seriously think they are equipping themselves for Iran Iran is just a drama their main enemy will always be Israel and they know for fact



And you really think that they would be using tanks against Israel? Pray tell me how many times Israel has brushed shoulders with Saudis? Not once.

Israel is Pakistan's perceived enemy; while KSA and Israel may not be bosom buddies, one doesn't have to essentially like or hate each other to create a relation.

Just because you fantasize a war between the two doesn't mean geopolitically it is possible. 

Israel will never invade KSA and KSA is certainly not going to waste time and money invading Israel.


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## applesauce

opz said:


>



whats up with russia in this image?


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## Deno

500 said:


> Can you provide any argument?
> 
> 
> Its fact. Abrams has fully separated ammo and better armor.




But that ammo and armor (DU) may kill their crew and the civilians slowly and painfully. For examplei Second Gulf War.


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## LegionnairE

Gosh saudis act like teenage boys who stole their father's credit card  

Having both Abrams and Leopard2 series tanks means they gonna need different spare parts and technical crews for each of those. It will make it twice harder to maintain and supply this state of the art equipment. Having an additional supply line for just 200 tanks is just... amateurish 


You can't just go out there and buy anything you like with your petrol money  Realize you aren't buying a toys your king's childeren. It'd be wise to do as our israeli friend over here just said; just upgrade your damn Abrams'

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## BLACKEAGLE

Deno said:


> But that ammo and armor (DU) may kill their crew and the civilians slowly and painfully. For examplei Second Gulf War.



That's in eastern tanks, western tanks like Abram has a separated ammunition storage compartment which has a well protected door, so in case of an attack on the storage, ammunition explosion would be diverted up of the tank. Crews would be safe. So, crews safety has been always a priority in western tanks designation while you wan't see it in the eastern counterparts, however new Russian tanks are going to take those shortcoming into account.


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## BLACKEAGLE

LegionnairE said:


> Gosh saudis act like teenage boys who stole their father's credit card
> 
> Having both Abrams and Leopard2 series tanks means they gonna need different spare parts and technical crews for each of those. It will make it twice harder to maintain and supply this state of the art equipment. Having an additional supply line for just 200 tanks is just... amateurish
> 
> 
> You can't just go out there and buy anything you like with your petrol money  Realize you aren't buying a toy to your king's childeren



Due to the harsh criticism of German opposition to this contract, Saudi decided to rise the number to 700 or 800 for $10 bn which would make it more difficult for German Gov to reject especially with the ongoing economic recessions.


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## LegionnairE

@Blackeagle
Again, I find it funny to see that their first course of action is to throw even more money to cross obstacles  

It's just  anyway, as i added my above post any sane person would upgrade existing Abrams' to M1A2SEP level before going to shopping


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## BLACKEAGLE

LegionnairE said:


> @Blackeagle
> Again, I find it funny to see that their first course of action to throw even more money to cross obstacles
> 
> It's just  anyway, as i added my above post any sane person would upgrade existing Abrams' to M1A2SEP level before going to shopping



As far as I know they are being upgraded, anyway, they have Abrams in small numbers and need to replace the aging M-60+AMX-30 fleets, and I think Saudis have made the best choice.


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## LegionnairE

BLACKEAGLE said:


> As far as I know they are being upgraded, anyway, they have Abrams in small numbers and need to replace the aging M-60+AMX-30 fleets, and I think Saudis have made the best choice.



Well at least they know where to throw their money


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## Mosamania

LegionnairE said:


> Gosh saudis act like teenage boys who stole their father's credit card
> 
> Having both Abrams and Leopard2 series tanks means they gonna need different spare parts and technical crews for each of those. It will make it twice harder to maintain and supply this state of the art equipment. Having an additional supply line for just 200 tanks is just... amateurish
> 
> 
> You can't just go out there and buy anything you like with your petrol money  Realize you aren't buying a toys your king's childeren. It'd be wise to do as our israeli friend over here just said; just upgrade your damn Abrams'



It has something more to do with diversifying the supply sources. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It maybe a pain in the a$$ to carry two baskets, but it sure is hellova lot safer.


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## LegionnairE

Mosamania said:


> It has something more to do with diversifying the supply sources. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It maybe a pain in the a$$ to carry two baskets, but it sure is hellova lot safer.



You can do it for extremely important stuff like fighter aircraft maybe. But you can't have two things for everything in an army. Might as well have two armies?

I mean, ther are lot easier ways to secure your one basket.
-Get your sh*t from your allies
-Make your sh*t yourself

After ALTAY's development most of Leopard2s' sub syestems will be replaced by ALTAY sub syestems, superior ones. If you can't do that buy from Pakistan! you probably won't get the best tank in the world but you will get your TOT and full technical assistance.

Anyway, You chose to do it this way. Nobody else can offer a better tank in this planet than Rheinmetall-KMW. I'd pick Leopard2A4 over any variant of Abrams so Leopard2A7+ is way better than anything you can compare it with. As i said at least you threw your money to right place

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## Mosamania

LegionnairE said:


> You can do it for extremely important stuff like fighter aircraft maybe. But you can't have two things for everything in an army. Might as well have two armies?
> 
> I mean, ther are lot easier ways to secure your one basket.
> -Get your sh*t from your allies
> -Make your sh*t yourself
> 
> After ALTAY's development most of Leopard2s' sub syestems will be replaced by ALTAY sub syestems, superior ones. If you can't do that buy from Pakistan! you probably won't get the best tank in the world but you will get your TOT and full technical assistance.
> 
> Anyway, You chose to do it this way. Nobody else can offer a better tank in this planet than Rheinmetall-KMW. I'd pick Leopard2A4 over any variant of Abrams so Leopard2A7+ is way better than anything you can compare it with. As i said at least you threw your money to right place



Well as you said. "Make it yourself". Which is a lengthy process which we are on the way to. However despite the whole "Saudi Groups is designing a Tank" rumor there isn't really any evidence of us being on that way.

Head of SMIC said that they have a production facility for Leopard 2 tanks in an interview maybe it was a tongue slip I don't know. But so far recently not a single deal went through without a significant amount of ToT. And quite honestly if there is one tank in the world I want its ToT it is this one.

Our army didn't like the Abrams very much actually. It always overheated, needed constant on-field repairing, guzzled gas like there is no tomorrow among others. And quite honestly it is kind of understood in Army circles it was a mistake, which is why the M1s are only being upgraded no new additions are coming aside from 52 M1A1s the US left in Iraq and was sold as scrap.


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## LegionnairE

Mosamania said:


> Well as you said. "Make it yourself". Which is a lengthy process which we are on the way to. However despite the whole "Saudi Groups is designing a Tank" rumor there isn't really any evidence of us being on that way.
> 
> Head of SMIC said that they have a production facility for Leopard 2 tanks in an interview maybe it was a tongue slip I don't know. But so far recently not a single deal went through without a significant amount of ToT. And quite honestly if there is one tank in the world I want its ToT it is this one.
> 
> Our army didn't like the Abrams very much actually. It always overheated, needed constant on-field repairing, guzzled gas like there is no tomorrow among others. And quite honestly it is kind of understood in Army circles it was a mistake, which is why the M1s are only being upgraded no new additions are coming aside from 52 M1A1s the US left in Iraq and was sold as scrap.


Well, good morning. M1 is and was always a crappy tank. Your politicians acted like... well i don't want to use bad words about your country any more than i already did by generalizing arabs but they were complete *idiots* for snubbing Brazilian Osorio.

And Americans shouldn't screw MBT70 up. And if you want TOT on Leopard2 you can forget it, Germans will never give it to you even if you rain dollars on them  Not even if you bring C17 Globemaster load of money 

Europeans especially German and French are being so narrow minded sometimes. Try UK, you might even get to secrets of dorchester armor with a right proposal.


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## Mosamania

LegionnairE said:


> Well, good morning. M1 is and was always a crappy tank. Your politicians acted like... well i don't want to use bad words about your country any more than i already did by generalizing arabs but they were complete *idiots* for snubbing Brazilian Osorio.
> 
> And Americans shouldn't screw MBT70 up. And if you want TOT on Leopard2 you can forget it, Germans will never give it to you even if you rain dollars on them  Not even if you bring C17 Globemaster load of money
> 
> Europeans especially German and French are being so narrow minded sometimes. Try UK, you might even get to secrets of dorchester armor with a right proposal.



The Osorio was supposed to be a Joint Production between KSA and Brazil like the Astros but after Gulf War our higher ups wanted all the US kiss assery they can muster. And no actually French and German have been very open to ToT to us recently.

Most notably regarding the French is the Cesar Self propelled Howitzer that is assembled and partly produced in KSA as well as the Nexter Aravis. In German side, they have been showering us with civilian ToT like mad. From Car Engines to Turbine Engines.


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## Tshering22

LegionnairE said:


> You can do it for extremely important stuff like fighter aircraft maybe. But you can't have two things for everything in an army. Might as well have two armies?



Most of the non-manufacturing countries around the world have this issue including ours. Maintaining a diversified fleet of tanks is a real bummer on cost aspect. It would especially be draining Saudi coffers to some extent as they are maintaining three different types of tanks rather than even two different types. 




> I mean, ther are lot easier ways to secure your one basket.
> -Get your sh*t from your allies
> -Make your sh*t yourself



Making ones' own shyte means having a hell lot of development taking place simultaneously between educational, infrastructure and scientific sectors. That cannot be held at bay when national security is priority. 



> After ALTAY's development most of Leopard2s' sub syestems will be replaced by ALTAY sub syestems, superior ones. If you can't do that buy from Pakistan! you probably won't get the best tank in the world but you will get your TOT and full technical assistance.



So when is it tentatively joining Turkish Army? Will your government sanction simultaneous export order clearance or first your Army will be equipped completely before exporting?



> Anyway, You chose to do it this way. Nobody else can offer a better tank in this planet than Rheinmetall-KMW. I'd pick Leopard2A4 over any variant of Abrams so Leopard2A7+ is way better than anything you can compare it with. As i said at least you threw your money to right place




100% agree with you man. German tank models are the best in the world.


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## 500

LegionnairE said:


> Well, good morning. M1 is and was always a crappy tank.


M1 was and is the best tank.



> Your politicians acted like... well i don't want to use bad words about your country any more than i already did by generalizing arabs but they were complete *idiots* for snubbing Brazilian Osorio.


Who needs Osorio?



> And Americans shouldn't screw MBT70 up.


MBT70 was junk.



> And if you want TOT on Leopard2 you can forget it, Germans will never give it to you even if you rain dollars on them  Not even if you bring C17 Globemaster load of money


There is absolutely nothing special about Leopard 2. Its just a modernization of Leopard 1.


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## BLACKEAGLE

500 said:


> M1 was and is the best tank.
> 
> 
> Who needs Osorio?
> 
> 
> MBT70 was junk.
> 
> 
> There is absolutely nothing special about *Leopard 2*. Its just a modernization of Leopard 1.



Just the most protected, fastest, and most sophisticated in the world. KSA has been trying to get it since 80s.


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## LegionnairE

@Tshering22
Otokar will be making this production and they are one gigantic company who i believe can produce for both Turkish Army demands and export market simultaneously but it will still take some time to produce over a thousand tanks for ourselves.



500 said:


> M1 was and is the best tank.



God please be kidding me


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## BLACKEAGLE

LegionnairE said:


> @Tshering22
> Otokar will be making this production and they are one gigantic company who i believe can produce for both Turkish Army demands and export market simultaneously but it will still take some time to produce over a thousand tanks for ourselves.
> 
> 
> 
> God please be kidding me



No sane person with basic military knowledge regarding tanks would say otherwise. Abrams is one of the best tanks. However, it has shortcomings like any other human made thing, such over heating of the engine.


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## 500

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Just the most protected


* Leopard has weaker front armor than Abrams.
* Leopard has more weakened zones than Abrams (large gun mask, sight area).

* Leopard has very poor protection of ammo in its turret.







* Leopards ammo in hull is not protected. Abrams holds all of its ammo behind blast doors.








> fastest


Both have 1500 hp engines. No any real difference here.



> and most sophisticated in the world.


Abrams got thermal sights for gunner and commander before the Leopard. C4I also before Leopard.


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## LegionnairE

Abrams is way more difficult and expensive for maintenance and you know why they are using DU ammunition? because they can't put a 120mm/L55 gun on it. Abrams' turret was originally designed for 105mm rifled gun same as M60s and it can't handle the weight of the L55. And Abrams' "1500hp" engine lights it on IR sights like a christmas tree it consumes three times more fuel than Leopard2 for same power output.

Germans make best phucking tanks since the invention of it.


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## BLACKEAGLE

500 said:


> * Leopard has weaker front armor than Abrams.
> * Leopard has more weakened zones than Abrams (large gun mask, sight area).
> 
> * Leopard has very poor protection of ammo in its turret.
> 
> 
> * Leopards ammo in hull is not protected. Abrams holds all of its ammo behind blast doors.
> 
> 
> 
> Both have 1500 hp engines. No any real difference here.
> 
> 
> Abrams got thermal sights for gunner and commander before the Leopard. C4I also before Leopard.



Well, all books and specialized sited I have read suggest that Leopard is the most protected tank:


Protection
The Leopard 2 uses spaced, multi-layered composite armour throughout the design. The Leopard 2A5 and A6 models have additional armour added to the turret front, and on the hull and side skirts. Estimated levels of protection for the Leopard 2 range from 590 - 690 RHAe on the turret, 600 RHAe on the glacis and lower front hull on the Leopard 2A4, to 920 - 940 RHAe on the turret, 620 RHAe on the glacis and lower front hull on the Leopard 2A6 against kinetic projectiles. The mine-protected Leopard 2A4M and 2A6M adds an additional mine protection plate for the belly, which increases protection against mines and improvised explosive devices.[6] All Leopard 2 variants after the Leopard 2A6 include spall liners on the inside of the tank, protecting the crew. The Leopard 2A6M CAN increases protection against rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) by including additional slat armour.
Two groups of 4 Wegmann 76 mm smoke mortars are mounted on either side of the turret and can be electrically fired either as single rounds or in salvos of four are mounted on most Leopard 2 models, with the exception of Dutch Leopard 2s, which are instead equipped with a Dutch-designed smoke mortar system with six barrels on each side. Swedish Leopard 2s utilize French GALIX smoke dispensers, similar to the system found on the French Leclerc.
The crew is also protected against Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) threats, as the Leopard 2 is equipped with a NBC overpressurization system which provides up to 4 mbar (0.004 kp/cm2) over-pressure inside the vehicle.
The Leopard 2 is equipped with a fire protection system. Four 9 kg Halon fire extinguisher bottles are installed on the right behind the driver's station. The bottles are connected to pipes and hoses and are activated automatically by the fire detection system, when temperatures rise above 82°C (180 °F) inside the fighting compartment, or manually via a control panel in the driver's compartment. An extra 2.5 kg Halon fire extinguisher is also stored on the floor beneath the main gun.

Armament


Armament


Ammunition storage of a Leopard 2A4.
[edit]Primary
The primary armament for production versions of the Leopard 2 is the Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun, in either the L44 variant (found on all production Leopard 2s until the A5), or the L55 variant (as found on the Leopard 2A6 and subsequent models).[6]* 27 rounds of the main gun ammunition are stored in a special magazine in the forward section of the hull, to the left of the driver's station, with an additional 15 rounds stored in the left side of the turret bustle, and separated from the fighting compartment by an electrically operated door.[6] If the ammunition storage area is hit, a blow-off panel in the turret roof would direct an explosion upwards away from the crew compartment.[6]* The gun is fully stabilized, and can fire a variety of types of rounds, such as the German DM33 APFSDS-T anti-tank round, which is said to be able to penetrate 560 millimeters (22 in) of steel armour at a range of 2,000 metres (2,200 yd),[9] and the German DM12 multipurpose anti-tank projectile (MPAT).[10] For the L55 gun, a newer APFSDS-T round was introduced to take advantage of the longer barrel, the DM-53, which is said to be able to penetrate in excess of 810 mm of RHAe armour at a range of 2,000 meters.[6] The bore evacuator and the gun's thermal sleeve of the A4 and A5, designed to regulate the temperature of the barrel, are fabricated out of glass-reinforced plastic. The barrel has a chrome lining to increase barrel life.[11] The main gun is capable of power elevating from +20° to &#8722;9°.[12]
Rheinmetall has developed an upgrade for Leopard 2 tanks to give them the ability to fire the LAHAT anti-tank guided missile through the main gun; the missile can engage targets out to a range of 6,000 metres (20,000 ft).[13]


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## BLACKEAGLE

Well, all books and specialized sited I have read suggest that Leopard is the most protected tank:


Protection
The Leopard 2 uses spaced, multi-layered composite armour throughout the design. The Leopard 2A5 and A6 models have additional armour added to the turret front, and on the hull and side skirts. Estimated levels of protection for the Leopard 2 range from 590 - 690 RHAe on the turret, 600 RHAe on the glacis and lower front hull on the Leopard 2A4, to 920 - 940 RHAe on the turret, 620 RHAe on the glacis and lower front hull on the Leopard 2A6 against kinetic projectiles. The mine-protected Leopard 2A4M and 2A6M adds an additional mine protection plate for the belly, which increases protection against mines and improvised explosive devices.[6] All Leopard 2 variants after the Leopard 2A6 include spall liners on the inside of the tank, protecting the crew. The Leopard 2A6M CAN increases protection against rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) by including additional slat armour.
Two groups of 4 Wegmann 76 mm smoke mortars are mounted on either side of the turret and can be electrically fired either as single rounds or in salvos of four are mounted on most Leopard 2 models, with the exception of Dutch Leopard 2s, which are instead equipped with a Dutch-designed smoke mortar system with six barrels on each side. Swedish Leopard 2s utilize French GALIX smoke dispensers, similar to the system found on the French Leclerc.
The crew is also protected against Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) threats, as the Leopard 2 is equipped with a NBC overpressurization system which provides up to 4 mbar (0.004 kp/cm2) over-pressure inside the vehicle.
The Leopard 2 is equipped with a fire protection system. Four 9 kg Halon fire extinguisher bottles are installed on the right behind the driver's station. The bottles are connected to pipes and hoses and are activated automatically by the fire detection system, when temperatures rise above 82°C (180 °F) inside the fighting compartment, or manually via a control panel in the driver's compartment. An extra 2.5 kg Halon fire extinguisher is also stored on the floor beneath the main gun.

Armament


Armament


Ammunition storage of a Leopard 2A4.
[edit]Primary
The primary armament for production versions of the Leopard 2 is the Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun, in either the L44 variant (found on all production Leopard 2s until the A5), or the L55 variant (as found on the Leopard 2A6 and subsequent models).[6]* 27 rounds of the main gun ammunition are stored in a special magazine in the forward section of the hull, to the left of the driver's station, with an additional 15 rounds stored in the left side of the turret bustle, and separated from the fighting compartment by an electrically operated door.[6] If the ammunition storage area is hit, a blow-off panel in the turret roof would direct an explosion upwards away from the crew compartment.[6]* The gun is fully stabilized, and can fire a variety of types of rounds, such as the German DM33 APFSDS-T anti-tank round, which is said to be able to penetrate 560 millimeters (22 in) of steel armour at a range of 2,000 metres (2,200 yd),[9] and the German DM12 multipurpose anti-tank projectile (MPAT).[10] For the L55 gun, a newer APFSDS-T round was introduced to take advantage of the longer barrel, the DM-53, which is said to be able to penetrate in excess of 810 mm of RHAe armour at a range of 2,000 meters.[6] The bore evacuator and the gun's thermal sleeve of the A4 and A5, designed to regulate the temperature of the barrel, are fabricated out of glass-reinforced plastic. The barrel has a chrome lining to increase barrel life.[11] The main gun is capable of power elevating from +20° to &#8722;9°.[12]
Rheinmetall has developed an upgrade for Leopard 2 tanks to give them the ability to fire the LAHAT anti-tank guided missile through the main gun; the missile can engage targets out to a range of 6,000 metres (20,000 ft).[13]

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## 500

LegionnairE said:


> Abrams is way more difficult and expensive for maintenance


Abrams is battle proven tank, unlike Leo.



> and you know why they are using DU ammunition?


Because its better.



> because they can't put a 120mm/L55 gun on it.


Because L/55 gun reduces mobility and accuracy.



> Abrams' turret was originally designed for 105mm rifled gun same as M60s and it can't handle the weight of the L55.


It can handle even bigger guns. Here with 140 mm:








> And Abrams' "1500hp" engine lights it on IR sights like a christmas tree it consumes three times more fuel than Leopard2 for same power output.


For thermals working in 8-12nm band there is very little difference.



> Germans make best phucking tanks since the invention of it.


Just empty slogan. Lets better talk facts.


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## Vitamin_C

I regard Saudi Arabia as a 4th world county. Pakistan and India are 3rd world countries. Iran is a 2nd world country. I am also getting reports that Saudi oil is going to dry up around 2030 so they should start planning for the rainy day.
Buying expensive weapons will not win you a war. In 1965 war both Pakistan and India were armed to the teeth with latest American and Russian weaponry, after 2 weeks fighting Pakistan used up 85% of its ammunition. 
Germany fought half the world for 6 years. 
A strong military would be the one which is more self sufficient. Iran makes all their weapons and upgrade them and maintain them themselves, in this regard Iran is a strong country and could out last the Saudis in any war, plus they have an endless supply of soldiers.
Israelis have a strong military not because they spend a lot, but because they are self sufficient.
Saudi should work on diversifying their economy and spending on development of indigenous weapons. They should also shorten the gaps between rich and poor, some people in Saudi are living in the middle ages.
Saudi Arabia is situated in a very dangerous area, they should get serious with their defense.

Another thing that I have noticed with Saudi spending, is that their spending is not influenced by necessity, but for making friends, The US F-15s, the Russian T90s, the European Leos. Many countries are now starting to buy friends with oil money on things that they do not need. Some deals with China are also on the cards.


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## Mosamania

Vitamin_C said:


> I regard Saudi Arabia as a 4th world county. Pakistan and India are 3rd world countries. Iran is a 2nd world country. I am also getting reports that Saudi oil is going to dry up around 2030 so they should start planning for the rainy day.
> Buying expensive weapons will not win you a war. In 1965 war both Pakistan and India were armed to the teeth with latest American and Russian weaponry, after 2 weeks fighting Pakistan used up 85% of its ammunition.
> Germany fought half the world for 6 years.
> A strong military would be the one which is more self sufficient. Iran makes all their weapons and upgrade them and maintain them themselves, in this regard Iran is a strong country and could out last the Saudis in any war, plus they have an endless supply of soldiers.
> Israelis have a strong military not because they spend a lot, but because they are self sufficient.
> Saudi should work on diversifying their economy and spending on development of indigenous weapons. They should also shorten the gaps between rich and poor, some people in Saudi are living in the middle ages.
> Saudi Arabia is situated in a very dangerous area, they should get serious with their defense.
> 
> Another thing that I have noticed with Saudi spending, is that their spending is not influenced by necessity, but for making friends, The US F-15s, the Russian T90s, the European Leos. Many countries are now starting to buy friends with oil money on things that they do not need. Some deals with China are also on the cards.



And I regard you as a class 6 ignorant. But then again you could research on these manners yourself. I have already put a huge amount of data on this site already.


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## 500

BLACKEAGLE said:


> * 27 rounds of the main gun ammunition are stored in a special magazine in the forward section of the hull, to the left of the driver's station, with an additional 15 rounds stored in the left side of the turret bustle, and separated from the fighting compartment by an electrically operated door.[6] If the ammunition storage area is hit, a blow-off panel in the turret roof would direct an explosion upwards away from the crew compartment.[6]*


Only 15 rounds in turret bustle are separated with blow off panels. 27 rounds in hull are not protected, just like old generation tanks (even less, cos old generation tank rounds have metal casing).

Abrams has all its rounds protected.


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## BLACKEAGLE

Mosamania said:


> And I regard you as a class 6 ignorant. But then again you could research on these manners yourself. I have already put a huge amount of data on this site already.



................


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## BLACKEAGLE

500 said:


> Only 15 rounds in turret bustle are separated with blow off panels. 27 rounds in hull are not protected, just like old generation tanks (even less, cos old generation tank rounds have metal casing).
> 
> Abrams has all its rounds protected.




Differences between the Leopard 2 and the U.S. M1A1 Abrams tanks have caused considerable debate over which is the better MBT , although some observers would argue for including the British Challenger tank as well. The Leopard 2 has advantages over the Abrams in the commander's independently stabilized and slewable sighting system, the gunner's binocular sight and the tank's fuel mileage, particularly when idling. The track is also said to have been much more reliable, once early problems were resolved.
The greatest advantage over the Abrams is in the Leopard 's relative fuel economy. According to manufacturer's figures, the Abrams turbine's fuel consumption at best speed for maximum range is 0.58 miles per gallon (0.25 km per liter); the Leopard 's 1.08 miles per gallon (0.46 km per liter) is nearly twice as good. More practically stated, the Leopard travels 56 mi (90 km) farther on 57 percent less fuel. Fuel consumption while idling is the turbine's weakest point, consumption at idle being perhaps three times as much as the diesel. On the other hand, the German engine weighs more than twice as much as the AGT-1500 turbine and occupies more volume.

The independence of the commander's sight, while very useful, was limited by its lack of a thermal channel. For the commander to see in poor visual conditions, he has to couple the periscope with the gunner's thermal channel through an optical relay system. Many of the targets acquired during Operation Desert Storm were first seen through thermal sights. The Leopard 2 Improved variant has the PERI R17 TW sight with thermal channel. This was rectified in the Leopard 2A5 .

A new fin-stabilized 120 mm HE-T (high explosive-tracer) round was developed for the Swedish army's Leopard 2 MBTs by Bofors and Israel Military Industries. The projectile used in the 120 mm HE-T projectile is from a 120-mm mortar bomb and is fitted with a point detonating (PD) fuse, which is not armed until the projectile is 50 m from the muzzle of the barrel.

In September of 2006, Israel Aerospace Industries and Rheinmetall announced the development of a gun-launched laser homing weapon system (Lahat) upgrade kit for Leopard 1 and 2 tanks. The Lahat is available in tank-launched and canister launched configurations. It can be fired from 105-mm and 120-mm guns, the latter requiring the use of a sabot. The missile allows first-shot kills of targets at ranges over 4 miles (6 km) utilizing internal or external guidance. The system has been successfully tested from a Leopard 2A4 tank.


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## Vitamin_C

Mosamania said:


> And I regard you as a class 6 ignorant. But then again you could research on these manners yourself. I have already put a huge amount of data on this site already.



Prove me wrong then. I have history on my side. Even though Pakistan's foreign policy is inconsistent and no body can trust us, experience tells us that US is an unreliable ally for any MiddleEast country except Israel. Even more unreliable supplier of arms.
If Arabs are serious about their defense they should produce their own Systems. It is my opinion that this money was better off spent on research and development.
The Americans make their own weapons, The Europeans make their own, The Russians, Chinese, Israelis, Indians... Even the Iranians are making their own Engines.. Why not the Arabs.


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## Mosamania

Vitamin_C said:


> Prove me wrong then. I have history on my side. Even though Pakistan's foreign policy is inconsistent and no body can trust us, experience tells us that US is an unreliable ally for any MiddleEast country except Israel. Even more unreliable supplier of arms.
> If Arabs are serious about their defense they should produce their own Systems. It is my opinion that this money was better off spent on research and development.
> The Americans make their own weapons, The Europeans make their own, The Russians, Chinese, Israelis, Indians... Even the Iranians are making their own Engines.. Why not the Arabs.



I have 7130 posts on this site. 3000 of those are talking about Military and Military Industry in KSA. Go ahead and research. Use the search option on top. 

I am not saying we have become a major Defense Industry country, all I am saying is that we are well in our way to be one. With all the signs heavily pointing at that direction.


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## Vitamin_C

Mosamania said:


> I have 7130 posts on this site. 3000 of those are talking about Military and Military Industry in KSA. Go ahead and research. Use the search option on top.
> 
> I am not saying we have become a major Defense Industry country, all I am saying is that we are well in our way to be one. With all the signs heavily pointing at that direction.



With all your experience you have to admit with the amount of resources available, the Arabs are far behind other regional powers in respect of the military industry. Take for example the Indians, even though their Arjun tanks are more costly than the T90s and are not as good as T90s, but they still support their Arjun Tanks. At-least half of the money spent on T90s, M1 Abrams, Leo tanks if spent on development and purchase Saudi developed tanks could create a whole new heavy industry in Saudi. I can only wonder how many western military factories did the Saudis help out of closing down. The GCC countries have enough resources to produce weapons together that meet their specifications better than any western systems. This region has so much potential for power. But by buying western weapons it seems like the Arabs are exposing their weakness as it shows they are dependent of the friendship of Western Countries that are known the be aggressive towards other Arab countries.

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## Vitamin_C

Era_923 said:


> Since when Iran and Saudi Arabia share borders?Maybe they want to move these tanks through Persian Gulf? It is like Iran buying tanks to defend itself especially against Japan.Doesn't make any sense
> It's is very welcome if some members think a little bit before posting here.



Seriously? Unlike Japan... There is a land link between Iran and Saudi. Either army could march through Kuwait and Iraq if there is a conflict. It is a possibility, a few border fences wont be a problem for tanks?


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## BLACKEAGLE

Vitamin_C said:


> With all your experience you have to admit with the amount of resources available, the Arabs are far behind other regional powers in respect of the military industry. Take for example the Indians, even though their Arjun tanks are more costly than the T90s and are not as good as T90s, but they still support their Arjun Tanks. At-least half of the money spent on T90s, M1 Abrams, Leo tanks if spent on development and purchase Saudi developed tanks could create a whole new heavy industry in Saudi. I can only wonder how many western military factories did the Saudis help out of closing down. The GCC countries have enough resources to produce weapons together that meet their specifications better than any western systems. This region has so much potential for power. But by buying western weapons it seems like the Arabs are exposing their weakness as it shows they are dependent of the friendship of Western Countries that are known the be aggressive towards other Arab countries.



Excuse me, people are not here to educate ignorants. You can search about Arab military industry yourself or at least make sure that you have updated your information. Egypt manufactures M1A2 Abrams, ant air systems, artillery...ect. Unlike regional powers who haven't yet developed their own tanks except for Israel. I hope people search before opening their mouths:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/192249-made-uae.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/164712-made-jordan.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/167821-m60-phoenix-main-battle-tank.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/204388-rpg-32-hashim.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/175911-9k35-zreb-bd-gopher-sa-13-a.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/168386-al-hussein-mbt.html

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## killerx

Leopard 2A7 is also a battle proven tank it could do good in Saudi army


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## Vitamin_C

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Excuse me, people are not here to educate ignorants. You can search about Arab military industry yourself or at least make sure that you have updated your information. Egypt manufactures M1A2 Abrams, ant air systems, artillery...ect. Unlike regional powers who haven't yet developed their own tanks except for Israel. I hope people search before opening their mouths:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/192249-made-uae.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/164712-made-jordan.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-warfare/167821-m60-phoenix-main-battle-tank.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/204388-rpg-32-hashim.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/175911-9k35-zreb-bd-gopher-sa-13-a.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/168386-al-hussein-mbt.html



You are telling me that some Arab country that you have nothing to do with is producing an American tank under license? Dont waste my time.
Turkey is developing its own tank. Iran has its own tanks, India and Pakistan are developing their own tanks.
Jordan has a mix of old American and British tanks with some modifications.
What I am really interested in is Arabs taking on a task like the Turks and Iranians, develop your own system with your own engines. GCC countries have the resources now that they me not always have. Instead of acting as a lifeline to western weapons manufacturers.


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## Mosamania

Vitamin_C said:


> You are telling me that some Arab country that you have nothing to do with is producing an American tank under license? Dont waste my time.
> Turkey is developing its own tank. Iran has its own tanks, India and Pakistan are developing their own tanks.
> Jordan has a mix of old American and British tanks with some modifications.
> What I am really interested in is Arabs taking on a task like the Turks and Iranians, develop your own system with your own engines. GCC countries have the resources now that they me not always have. Instead of acting as a lifeline to western weapons manufacturers.



You seriously lack a great deal of knowledge in the aspect of military and military equipment. So I am going to give you a few months to go and read on the subject fully. And then we will have a productive debate . Till then have a good one.


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## Vitamin_C

Mosamania said:


> You seriously lack a great deal of knowledge in the aspect of military and military equipment. So I am going to give you a few months to go and read on the subject fully. And then we will have a productive debate . Till then have a good one.



I am sorry to disturb you from your dream world... but you have to educate yourself about the facts my friend... So i will give a few days to go over this.

Rank Country Expenditures on R&D
(billions of US$, PPP) % of GDP PPP Year Source
1 United States 405.3 2.7% 2011 [2]
2 China 153.7 1.4% 2011 [2]
3 Japan 144.1 3.3% 2011 [2]
4 Germany 69.5 2.3% 2011 [2]
5 South Korea 44.8 3.0% 2011 [2]
6 France 42.2 1.9% 2011 [2]
7 United Kingdom 38.4 1.7% 2011 [2]
8 India 36.1 0.9% 2011 [2]
9 Canada 24.3 1.8% 2011 [2]
10 Russia 23.1 1.0% 2011 [2]
11 Brazil 19.4 0.9% 2011 [2]
12 Italy 19.0 1.1% 2011 [2]
13 Taiwan 19.0 2.3% 2011 [2]
14 Spain 17.2 1.3% 2011 [2]
15 Australia 15.9 1.7% 2011 [2]
16 Sweden 11.9 3.3% 2011 [2]
17 Netherlands 10.8 1.6% 2011 [2]
18 Israel 9.4 4.2% 2011 [2]
19 Austria 8.3 2.5% 2011 [2]
20 Switzerland 7.5 2.3% 2011 [2]
21 Belgium 6.9 1.7% 2011 [2]
22 Turkey 6.9 0.7% 2011 [2]
23 Poland 6.9 0.9% 2011 [2]
24 Mexico 6.4 0.4% 2011 [2]
25 Finland 6.3 3.1% 2011 [2]
26 Singapore 6.3 2.2% 2011 [2]
27 Iran 6.2 0.7% 2010 [3]
28 Denmark 5.1 2.4% 2011 [2]
29 Norway 4.2 1.6% 2011 [2]
30 Czech Republic 3.8 1.4% 2011 [2]
31 South Africa 3.7 0.7% 2011 [2]
32 Portugal 2.8 1.2% 2011 [2]
33 Ukraine 2.75 0.85% 2007 [4]
34 Pakistan 2.73  0.67% 2007 [4]
35 Argentina 2.7 0.4% 2011 [2]
36 Ireland 2.6 1.4% 2011 [2]
37 Malaysia 2.6 0.63% 2010 [5]
38 Greece 1.7 0.6% 2011 [2]
39 Hungary 1.7 0.9% 2011 [2]
40 Thailand 1.46 0.25% 2010 [5]
41 New Zealand 1.4 1.2% 2011 [2]
42 Romania 1.3 0.5% 2011 [2]
43 Chile 1.22 0.53% 2007 [4]
44 Belarus 1.02 0.96% 2007 [4]
45 Egypt 0.91 0.23% 2007 [4]
46 Slovenia 0.8 1.4% 2011 [2]
47 Morocco 0.76 0.6% 2007 [4]
48 Indonesia 0.72 0.07% 2010 [5]
49 Croatia 0.7 0.81% 2007 [4]
50 Luxembourg 0.67 1.62% 2007 [4]
51 Tunisia 0.66 0.86% 2007 [6]
52 Colombia 0.6 0.16% 2007 [4]
53 Vietnam 0.52 0.19% 2010 [5]
54 Slovak Republic 0.5 0.4% 2011 [2]
55 Lithuania 0.47 0.82% 2007 [4]
56 Bulgaria 0.44 0.48% 2007 [4]
57 Kazakhstan 0.38 0.21% 2007 [4]
58 Estonia 0.36 1.11% 2007 [4]
59 Iceland 0.3 2.3% 2011 [2]
60 Philippines 0.29 0.09% 2007 [4]
61 Uruguay 0.272 0.42% 2007 [4]
62 Saudi Arabia 0.271 0.05% * 2007 [4]
63 Serbia 0.25 0.35% 2007 [4]
64 Peru 0.24 0.1% 2007 [4]
65 Latvia 0.23 0.59% 2007 [4]
66 Sudan 0.18 0.23% 2007 [4]
67 Algeria 0.16 0.07% 2007 [4]
68 Costa Rica 0.15 0.32% 2007 [4]
69 Uganda 0.13 0.39% 2007 [4]
70 Azerbaijan 0.11 0.17% 2007 [4]
71 Botswana 0.11 0.42% 2007 [4]
72 Ethiopia 0.1 0.17% 2007 [4]


Saudis are spending $271 million on R&D. Now compare that with $$$ spent on acquiring foreign equipment.
According to Saudi policy, the Govt is going to rely on foreign equipment for at-least another 2 decades before they increase the R&D to 2% of GDP. I hope they do not run out of Oil by then. Saudi Economy is not very stable as it is dependent on oil prices.
If you do not understand this I will explain it for you.

Source: Wikipedia


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## killerx

Saudi Arabia is really upgrading there weapons but it would be much better they build of there own may be built them on transfer of technology as the leading as the leading Muslim nation they should be self relaying


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## Banu Umayyah

Vitamin_C said:


>


You need to update your non existing information my friend.
Saudi Arabia: 2012 R&D as % GDP= 0.25%. 2012 GERD PPP Bil, U.S. $= 1.8. Rank= 38
In a period of five years SA increased by 500% and moved up 44 ranks bypassing some European countries by percentage of GDP.
Just because your country's GDP equals the GDP of my neighborhood back in Riyadh it doesn't mean you go around making up facts to overcompensate your country's inadequacy.
http://www.rdmag.com/Featured-Artic...th-Continues-While-Globalization-Accelerates/

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## BLACKEAGLE

500 said:


> * Leopard has weaker front armor than Abrams.
> * Leopard has more weakened zones than Abrams (large gun mask, sight area).


2. Protection levels for US MBT's are larger than usually quoted because the US standard is for a 30 degrees oblique shot. To return to US Army style measurements divide all figures on chart by 1.15. NII Stali estimate M1A1HA turret at 700mm versus KE, 850mm versus CE for a 30 degrees oblique shot. GSPO/BTVT estimates M1A1 at 480-500 versus KE and 790-840 versus CE, M1A1HA at 530-550 versus KE and 750-780 versus CE, M1A2 at 770 versus KE and 1000-1200 versus CE.

16. Some Russian estimates give the Leopard 2 frontal protection of 700mm vs KE and 850mm vs CE. See ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½-ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ :: ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ - ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ Others estimate Leopard 2 as 380-400 versus KE and 650-700 versus CE. BTVT estimates Leopard 2A4 (1988) at 580 versus KE and 1100 versus CE and Leopard 2A5 (1994) at 830 versus KE and 1300 versus CE.

*Leopard 2A5*

vs KE (mm)
Turret: 850-930 
Glacis:620
Lower front hull:620

vs CE (mm)
Turret: 1730-1960 
Glacis:750
Lower front hull:750

*M1A2 SEP*

vs KE (mm)
Turret: 940-960 Glacis:560-590
Lower front hull:580-650

vs CE (mm)
Turret: 1320-1620 Glacis:510-1050
Lower front hull:800-970


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## Vitamin_C

Banu Umayyah said:


> You need to update your non existing information my friend.
> Saudi Arabia: 2012 R&D as % GDP= 0.25%. 2012 GERD PPP Bil, U.S. $= 1.8. Rank= 38
> In a period of five years SA increased by 500% and moved up 44 ranks bypassing some European countries by percentage of GDP.
> Just because your country's GDP equals the GDP of my neighborhood back in Riyadh it doesn't mean you go around making up facts to overcompensate your country's inadequacy.
> 2012 Global R&D Funding Forecast: R&D Spending Growth Continues While Globalization Accelerates | R&D Mag



I do not make facts, mine were correct but not updated. I do not know if you are talking about UAE or Pakistan. Because both have GDP higher than Riyadh $107BN. Abu Dhabi and Karachi has a GDP of over $80bn each. Back to topic.
Saudi Arabia population is roughly twice that of Karachi and Economy is roughly equal to that of the city of Chicago.
In simple words the point you are trying to make is Your govt has increased expenditure on R&D from $622 million in 2010 to 1.8 billion in 2012. It is a good improvement but still a very insignificant figure when you compare it with the money spent on import of weapons. Saudi is starting from scratch. Other countries are still centuries ahead...
Another thing is Saudi is selling Oil for Dollars and not for Riyals. By doing this Saudis are importing American inflation. They cannot bring the dollars home because of American pressure, which is probably why they are opting for weapons that Americans are selling at a standard lower than theirs. Those jets probably have higher utility than American IOUs as a deterrent. Americans are not your friends.



BLACKEAGLE said:


> 2. Protection levels for US MBT's are larger than usually quoted because the US standard is for a 30 degrees oblique shot. To return to US Army style measurements divide all figures on chart by 1.15. NII Stali estimate M1A1HA turret at 700mm versus KE, 850mm versus CE for a 30 degrees oblique shot. GSPO/BTVT estimates M1A1 at 480-500 versus KE and 790-840 versus CE, M1A1HA at 530-550 versus KE and 750-780 versus CE, M1A2 at 770 versus KE and 1000-1200 versus CE.
> 
> 16. Some Russian estimates give the Leopard 2 frontal protection of 700mm vs KE and 850mm vs CE. See ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½-ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ :: ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ - ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ Others estimate Leopard 2 as 380-400 versus KE and 650-700 versus CE. BTVT estimates Leopard 2A4 (1988) at 580 versus KE and 1100 versus CE and Leopard 2A5 (1994) at 830 versus KE and 1300 versus CE.
> 
> *Leopard 2A5*
> 
> vs KE (mm)
> Turret: 850-930
> Glacis:620
> Lower front hull:620
> 
> vs CE (mm)
> Turret: 1730-1960
> Glacis:750
> Lower front hull:750
> 
> *M1A2 SEP*
> 
> vs KE (mm)
> Turret: 940-960 Glacis:560-590
> Lower front hull:580-650
> 
> vs CE (mm)
> Turret: 1320-1620 Glacis:510-1050
> Lower front hull:800-970



What is the price difference between the Leo and Abrams... I know the Germans make some of the best tanks. The Americans on the other hand like to over do things. I remember reading that you can get 4 Al Khalid tanks for the price of one Abrams tank.

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## Banu Umayyah

Vitamin_C said:


> Another thing is Saudi is selling Oil for Dollars and not for Riyals. .


lol Fail.
The Riyal *is* a U.S Dollar with King Abdullah's face on it.
Anyway, our defense spending is non of your business. Try to reduce your US aid and your Chinese military weapons while we deal with our own issues.

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## Vitamin_C

Banu Umayyah said:


> lol Fail.
> The Riyal *is* a U.S Dollar with King Abdullah's face on it.
> Anyway, our defense spending is non of your business. Try to reduce your US aid and your Chinese military weapons while we deal with our own issues.



The Riyal and Dollar are 2 different currencies with different exchange rates. Riyal has been fixed with the dollar, which means when you float it then you will see the true value of the currency. Its worse than importing dollars because, American inflation will directly effect you as your currency is fixed to theirs.
If i compare Pakistani military with Saudi military that wouldn't be fair, your military and politics is decades behind ours.
BTW it is our issue, every penny the Arabs pay for Western weapon, that money goes straight to Israel as military aid. They have to balance it, each gun exported to the Arabs have to be sent to Israel as well as counter balance. 
Arabs are living in a state of denial, your supposed to learn from your past mistakes. Sooner or later the Americans will decide to bring their democracy to Bahrain or Qatar or Kuwait. They will do the same with you what they did with Saddam and Shah Faisal.

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## Arabian Legend

Vitamin_C said:


> The Riyal and Dollar are 2 different currencies with different exchange rates. Riyal has been fixed with the dollar, which means when you float it then you will see the true value of the currency. Its worse than importing dollars because, American inflation will directly effect you as your currency is fixed to theirs.
> If i compare Pakistani military with Saudi military that wouldn't be fair, your military and politics is decades behind ours.
> BTW it is our issue, every penny the Arabs pay for Western weapon, that money goes straight to Israel as military aid. They have to balance it, each gun exported to the Arabs have to be sent to Israel as well as counter balance.
> Arabs are living in a state of denial, your supposed to learn from your past mistakes. Sooner or later the Americans will decide to bring their democracy to Bahrain or Qatar or Kuwait. They will do the same with you what they did with Saddam and Shah Faisal.



you cant separate economy and politics one in each own. if the Saudi Riyal is not linked to the dollar then its value will be depends on oil prices and that will result to unstable value of the Saudi currency as oil prices goes up and down which will definitely create chances for others including the west to manipulate the prices of oil to create unsuitability and economic infraction. we always create our own cards to play with in case of need. 

speaking of military strength b/t Pakistan and Saudi Arabia is not a proper equation as both countries are not in competition. powerful pakistan means powerful Saudi Arabia. 

the rest of your post is pointless no one can touch the land of the two holy sits and death of Shah Faisal is big loos to us and wasn't done by America it was done by his nephew as a revenge to his father whom Shah Faisal kicked out of the country. The west has learned the lesson from turning off the hose in the 70s unless they wanna go back to bicycles again.

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## LegionnairE

500 said:


> Because L/55 gun reduces mobility and accuracy.


What mobility? a longer barrel no way can reduce accuracy don't bullsh*t me. L55 gun incerases effective range to six kilometers with better kinetic energy.

Even 120mm L44 gun was adopted from Germans, Americans always sucked when it came to tanks. If it wasn't for Leopard, M1 would be produced with 105mm rifled gun.


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## Bubblegum Crisis

LegionnairE said:


> Gosh saudis act like teenage boys who stole their father's credit card
> 
> Having both Abrams and Leopard2 series tanks means they gonna need different spare parts and technical crews for each of those. It will make it twice harder to maintain and supply this state of the art equipment. Having an additional supply line for just 200 tanks is just... amateurish
> 
> 
> You can't just go out there and buy anything you like with your petrol money  Realize you aren't buying a toys your king's childeren. It'd be wise to do as our israeli friend over here just said; just upgrade your damn Abrams'





BLACKEAGLE said:


> Due to the harsh criticism of German opposition to this contract, Saudi decided to rise the number to 700 or 800 for $10 bn which would make it more difficult for German Gov to reject especially with the ongoing economic recessions.





LegionnairE said:


> @Blackeagle
> Again, I find it funny to see that their first course of action is to throw even more money to cross obstacles
> 
> It's just  anyway, as i added my above post any sane person would upgrade existing Abrams' to M1A2SEP level before going to shopping





BLACKEAGLE said:


> As far as I know they are being upgraded, anyway, they have Abrams in small numbers and need to replace the aging M-60+AMX-30 fleets, and I think Saudis have made the best choice.





LegionnairE said:


> Well at least they know where to throw their money





Mosamania said:


> It has something more to do with diversifying the supply sources. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It maybe a pain in the a$$ to carry two baskets, but it sure is hellova lot safer.





LegionnairE said:


> You can do it for extremely important stuff like fighter aircraft maybe. But you can't have two things for everything in an army. Might as well have two armies?
> 
> I mean, ther are lot easier ways to secure your one basket.
> -Get your sh*t from your allies
> -Make your sh*t yourself
> 
> After ALTAY's development most of Leopard2s' sub syestems will be replaced by ALTAY sub syestems, superior ones. If you can't do that buy from Pakistan! you probably won't get the best tank in the world but you will get your TOT and full technical assistance.
> 
> Anyway, You chose to do it this way. Nobody else can offer a better tank in this planet than Rheinmetall-KMW. I'd pick Leopard2A4 over any variant of Abrams so Leopard2A7+ is way better than anything you can compare it with. As i said at least you threw your money to right place





LegionnairE said:


> *... And if you want TOT on Leopard2 you can forget it, Germans will never give it to you even if you rain dollars on them  Not even if you bring C17 Globemaster load of money
> 
> Europeans especially German and French are being so narrow minded sometimes. Try UK, you might even get to secrets of dorchester armor with a right proposal.*





No, Seriously? 

Don't worry for us...


*See all olds links :*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...800-leopard-tanks-germany-23.html#post3089936

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...800-leopard-tanks-germany-23.html#post3089904

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2917685

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2917691

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ee-f-15s-helicopters-more-11.html#post2920359

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## Penguin

LegionnairE said:


> What mobility? a longer barrel no way can reduce accuracy don't bullsh*t me. L55 gun incerases effective range to six kilometers with better kinetic energy.
> 
> Even 120mm L44 gun was adopted from Germans, Americans always sucked when it came to tanks. If it wasn't for Leopard, M1 would be produced with 105mm rifled gun.



And that 105mm rifled gun is originally a British gun....


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## Penguin

Vitamin_C said:


> Prove me wrong then. I have history on my side. Even though Pakistan's foreign policy is inconsistent and no body can trust us, experience tells us that US is an unreliable ally for any MiddleEast country except Israel. Even more unreliable supplier of arms.
> If Arabs are serious about their defense they should produce their own Systems. It is my opinion that this money was better off spent on research and development.
> The Americans make their own weapons, The Europeans make their own, The Russians, Chinese, Israelis, Indians... Even the Iranians are making their own Engines.. Why not the Arabs.



The relation between arms import and arms industry and arms export is neither simple nor straight forward. 

Check out lists of top 15 importers and exporters of arms here: Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that 3 of the biggest importers of arms are also among the biggest exporters and hence producers) of arms: USA, China, South Korea.

Note that while India is the biggest importers of arms and Israel is not on that top 15, and while Israel features as no. 8 exporter while India is not in the top 15 of arms exporters, Hindustan Aeronautics (India) ties Elbit Systems (Israel) in terms of figures for arms sales, total sales and total profit are in millions of US dollars. At places 33 and 34, these 2 companies are the first non-American, non-western companies in the SIPRI top 100 arms producing and military services companies in 2010. Followed respectively by Israel Aerospace Industries (37) and Indian Ordnance Factories (46). The SIPRI Top 100 arms-producing and military services companies, 2010 &mdash; www.sipri.org



> The Military industry of Egypt is the most important in the Arab world. As early as 1949, Egypt unveiled plans to develop an armaments industry with the industrial base that emerged during World War II when British and American forces placed orders for equipment. During the 1970s and 1980s, Egypt expanded and diversified its production of arms to achieve partial self-sufficiency and to develop an export market in the Middle East and Africa. In addition to manufacturing small arms and ammunition, Egypt had begun producing or assembling more advanced weapons systems through licensing and joint venture agreements with companies based in the United States and Western Europe. Egyptian technicians and scientists developed several indigenous weapons systems.Egypt was involved in supplying the CIA with various weapons for Operation Cyclone and the Soviet Afghan war. The main purchaser of Egyptian defense products had been Saddam's Iraq. Egypt sold a smaller volume of weapons to Kuwait and other Arab States of the Persian Gulf. We all know what happened to Kuwait and later to Saddam's Iraq.


Egyptian Military Industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention Iraqi military industry...


> Iraqi Military Industry
> The Ministry of Industry and Military Industrialization, directed all Iraqi military production. The Government owned all major industries and controls most of the highly centralized economy, which was based largely on oil production. The economy was damaged by the Iran-Iraq and Gulf Wars, and Iraq had been under U.N. sanctions since its 1990 invasion of Kuwait. As a result, the economy had been stagnant. Sanctions ban all exports, except for oil sales under U.N. Security Council Resolution 986 and subsequent resolutions (the " oil-for-food" program). Under the program, Iraq also was permitted, under U.N. control, to import food, medicine, and other humanitarian goods for essential civilian needs, as well as spare parts for the oil sector.
> 
> Prior to the 1990-91 Gulf War, Iraq had developed significant ammunition, small and light arms, and gun barrel production facilities, although most industrial development efforts were focused on weapons of mass destruction. By 1987 Iraq was self-sufficient in small calibre ammunition, artillery shells, aircraft bombs, mortar rounds, rocket-propelled grenades, rockets, tube- launched rockets, mortars, propellant, fuses, and replacement barrels. Artillery research is conducted 25 kilometers South of Baghdad in the Al-Badr Factory in the town of Al-Yusufiyah.
> 
> With respect to conventional armaments, Iraq did not attempt to develop significant domestic capabilities, and even relied heavily on foreign technical support teams for servicing French and Russian aircraft. Iraq began to upgrade and maintain existing tanks and other armored vehicles. Facilities supporting these activities included Al/Ameen/Yusufiyah, Base West World, possibly Huteen, Taji, Samawa and the Al-Ameer portion of the Aqba bin Nafi State Establishment. The Taji factory complex had doubled in size by 1985, and included a forge capable of producing 1000 artillery barrels per year and armor maintenance and refit plants for the T-54, T-55, and T-62 tanks in the Iraqi inventory. The complex also included facilities for assembly of the T-72, and would eventually build armor and tank bodies. Iraq did import T-72 kits, which were intended to lead to a transition to production, though Iraq appears to lack the industrial base for such production [T-72 production resumed in 1993, assembling tanks from kits provided before the Gulf War]. Prior to 1991, production of defense articles was largely oriented on prototypes and prestige projects.
> 
> The long-term combat effectiveness of Iraq's large military forces depended on military production facilities and continued support from its logistical base. Destruction of repair facilities, spare parts supplies, and storage depots would degrade Iraq's combat capability and long-term threat to the region. During the Persian Gulf War, planners knew there were too many targets to be eliminated entirely. For instance, there were seven primary and 19 secondary ammunition storage facilities alone identified on target lists: each was composed of scores of individual storage bunkers. Consequently, Desert Storm planners first destroyed the most threatening production facilities and stored material, then methodically to proceed with attacks on other storage and production facilities as time and assets allowed.
> 
> Iraq had been largely cut off from major imports of parts and specialized equipment since 1990, though some dual use items, civilian electronics and computer equipment are not effectively controlled. Black market imports, substitution, and local manufactures provide limited substitute for imported resources.
> 
> The Ba'thist regime engaged in extensive central planning and management of industrial production and foreign trade while leaving some small-scale industry and services and most agriculture to private enterprise. The economy has been dominated by the oil sector, which had traditionally provided about 95% of foreign exchange earnings.
> 
> According to official Iraqi figures, the total industrial labor force in 1984 consisted of about 170,000 workers. State- operated factories employed slightly more than 80 percent of these workers, while 13 percent worked in the private sector. The remaining 7 percent worked in the mixed economy, which consisted of factories operated jointly by the state--which held a major share of the common stock--and the private sector. Men constituted 87 percent of the industrial work force. According to the Iraqi government, in 1984 there were 782 industrial establishments, ranging in size from small workshops employing 30 workers to large factories with more than 1,000 employees. Of these, 67 percent were privately owned. The private sector owned two-thirds of the factories, but employed only 13 percent of the industrial labor force. Privately owned industrial establishments were, therefore, relatively numerous, but they were also relatively small and more capital-intensive. Only three privately owned factories employed more than 250 workers; the great majority employed fewer than 100 people each. Private-sector plant ownership tended to be dispersed throughout industry and was not concentrated in any special trade, with the exception of the production of metal items such as tools and utensils. Although the private sector accounted for 40 percent of production in this area, the metal items sector itself constituted no more than a cottage industry. Figures published by the Iraqi Federation of Industries claimed that the private sector dominated the construction industry if measurement were based not on the number of employees or on the value of output, but on the amount of capital investment. In 1981, such private- sector capital investment in the construction industry was 57 percent of total investment. By this alternative measurement, private sector involvement in the textile and the food processing industries was above average. In contrast, about fourty-six state-owned factories employed more than 1,000 workers apiece, and several industrial sectors, such as mining and steel production, were entirely state-dominated.
> 
> In addition to the nonmetallic minerals industry, several other industries employed significant percentages of the work force. The chemical and petrochemical industry, concentrated at Khawr az Zubayr, was the second largest industrial employer, providing work for 17 percent of the industrial work force. Chemicals and petrochemicals accounted for a relatively high 30 percent of the total value of industrial output because of the high value of raw material inputs and the higher value added-- more than 150 percent.
> 
> By the mid-1980s, efforts to upgrade industrial capacity from the extracting and processing of natural resources to heavy industry, to the manufacturing of higher technology and to the production of consumer items were still not fully successful. An iron and steel works built in 1978 by the French company, Creusot-Loire, at Khawr az Zubayr, was expected to attain an annual production level of 1.2 million tons of smelted iron ore and 400,000 tons of steel. Other smelters, foundries, and form works were under construction in 1988. (In 1984 this sector of the economy accounted for less than 2 percent of total output.) Manufacture of machinery and transport equipment accounted for only 6 percent of output value, and value added was fairly low, suggesting that Iraq was assembling imported intermediate components to make finished products. A single factory established in the 1980s with Soviet assistance and located at Al Musayyib, produced tractors. In 1981, Iraq contracted with a company from the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germay) to develop the domestic capability to produce motor vehicles. Plans called for production of 120,000 passenger cars and 25,000 trucks per year, but the project's US$5 billion cost led to indefinite delays.
> 
> By the late 1980s, Iraq had had some success in establishing light industries to produce items such as spark plugs, batteries, locks, and household appliances. The electronics industry, concentrated in Baghdad, had grown to account for about 6 percent of output with the help of Thompson-CSF (that is, Compagnie sans fil) of France and the Soviet Union. Other more advanced industries just starting to develop in Iraq in the late 1980s were pharmaceuticals and plastics.
> 
> In the 1980s, financial problems caused by massive expenditures in the eight-year war with Iran and damage to oil export facilities by Iran led the government to implement austerity measures and to borrow heavily and later reschedule foreign debt payments; Iraq suffered economic losses of at least $100 billion from the war. After the end of hostilities in 1988, oil exports gradually increased with the construction of new pipelines and restoration of damaged facilities. Agricultural development remained hampered by labor shortages, salinization, and dislocations caused by previous land reform and collectivization programs. The industrial sector, although accorded high priority by the government, also was under financial constraints.
> 
> Iraq's seizure of Kuwait in August 1990, subsequent international economic embargoes, and military action by an international coalition beginning in January 1991 drastically changed the economic picture. The UN-sponsored economic embargo has reduced exports and imports and has contributed to the sharp rise in prices. The Iraqi Government has been unwilling to abide by UN resolutions so that the economic embargo could be removed.
> 
> The government's policies of supporting large military and internal security forces and of allocating resources to key supporters of the regime had exacerbated shortages. Industrial and transportation facilities, which suffered severe damage, have been partially restored. At current prices, oil exports are about one-third of their prewar level because of the implementation of UN Security Council Resolution 986 -- the UN's oil-for-goods program -- in December 1996. Shortages of spare parts continue. In accord with the oil-for-goods deal, Iraq was allowed to export $2 billion worth of oil in exchange for badly needed food and medicine. The first oil was pumped in December 1996, and the first supplies of food and medicine arrived in April 1997. Per capita output for 1995-97 and living standards are well below the 1989-90 level, but any estimates have a wide range of error.
> 
> On February 26, 2001, US Secretary of State Colin Powell proposed a modification of sanctions on Iraq, more carefully targeting them towards military items sought by the Iraqi government, while allowing freer movement of civilian goods. In early May, Powell stated that the United States wanted "to revise the sanctions policy so that it is directed exclusively at preventing Iraq from a military buildup and developing weapons of mass destruction." In early July 2001, facing an almost certain Russian veto, the UN Security Council agreed to postpone indefinitely a vote on the U.S. "smart sanctions" plan, and extended the oil-for-food program another 5 months. Following this, Iraq resumed oil exports, which it had halted on June 4 in protest of the plan. In late November 2001, the oil-for-food program was renewed again, but this time with an agreement to reform the program, more in line with the U.S. "smart sanctions" idea, when it came up for renewal again in late May 2002.
> 
> Entity	Location	Products
> Al-Badr	al Yusufiyah	Aerial bombs, artillery pieces, and machine tool bits
> Al Hiteen	Al Iskandariyah	Explosives, TNT, propellants, and vehicles
> Al Naiman	Oqba	Cluster bombs
> Al Qaqaa Aerial bombs, TNT, and solid rocket propellants
> April 7 (Narawan Fuse) Factory Proximity fuzes for 155 mm and cluster munitions
> Base West World	Samawa	Major armor refitting center
> Diglia	Zaafarniyah	Software, controllers, and plastic castings
> Fallujah	Al Muthanna	HMX and RDX explosives
> Mansour	Baghdad	Defense electronics
> PCI Ethylene oxide for fuel-air explosives
> Sa'ad 5 (Sa'ad Engineering Complex 122mm howitzers, Ababil rockets, tank optics and mortar sights
> Sa'ad 13	Salah al Din - Ad Dawr	Defense electronics, radars, and frequency-hopping radios
> Sa'ad 21	Mosul	Non-ferrous ammunition cases
> Sa'ad 24	Mosul	Gas masks
> Sa'ad 38	Fao	Aircraft assembly and manufacturing [under construction]
> Sawary	Basra	Small naval boats
> SEHEE heavy engineering complex	Al Dura	Artillery, vehicle parts, and cannon barrels
> U/I	Al Amil	Liquid nitrogen production
> U/I	Al Rabiyah	Precision machining
> U/I	Al Taji	Wheeled APCs [East European license], armor, and artillery
> U/I	Al-Amen	Tank assembly plant [under Polish and Czech licenses]
> U/I	Fao	Cluster bombs and fuel-air explosives
> 
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> 
> Page last modified: 09-07-2011 02:48:54 ZULU


Iraqi Military Industry


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## Tihamah

i just don't understand the some of replies above, why some people are so upset about Saudi Arabia buying Leopard 2A7+ (best tank in the world)??

why many replies are out of topic and about other things?  

it is Saudi Arabian money and German Weapons....Only germans and Saudi Arabians should be satisified or upset about this deal but not others.

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