# 14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose



## ArsalanKhan21

14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose | Fox News

*14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose*
Published December 02, 2015
FoxNews.com


DEVELOPING: Fourteen people are believed dead and more than a dozen injured Wednesday after three gunmen "on a mission" burst into a San Bernardino, Calif., social services facility where employees were hosting a holiday party, and police were hunting three suspects who appear to have escaped.

The men, who witnesses said were wearing body armor and masks, entered the Inland Regional Center just after 11 a.m. with grim precision, according to San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan. Once inside, they opened fire with rifles, shooting people in a conference room where a holiday party was taking place, authorities said. Hundred of people were seen streaming out of the building moments later, some described by witnesses as holding their hands above their heads and even diving for cover behind cars in a parking lot.

"Up to three people entered the building and opened fire on people inside the building," Burguan said at a news conference some three hours after the first call went out. "The suspects have fled, potentially in a dark-colored SUV.

"They came prepared to do what they did as if on a mission," he added.

"They came prepared to do what they did as if on a mission."

- San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan

Burguan said police do not know the identities or motive of the shooters, who he said numbered "upwards of three." He said preliminary information showed 14 people were killed, and a similar number were injured. He said he could not rule out the possibility that there were more dead or injured inside the building.

The FBI and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms were responding to the scene, some 60 miles east of Los Angeles. An FBI spokesman said it was not clear whether the incident was terror related. No weapons were recovered.

.@SanBernardinoPD has confirmed 1to3 possible suspects.Multiple victims. #SBCSD &other agencies assisting. More info to come. #SanBernardino

The FBI and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms responded to the scene, some 60 miles east of Los Angeles.

The Inland Regional Center is one of 21 facilities serving people with developmental disabilities run by the state, said Nancy Lungren, spokeswoman for the California Department of Developmental Services. The social services agency administers, authorizes and pays for assistance to people with disabilities such as autism and mental retardation. On an average day, doctors at the regional centers would be evaluating toddlers whose parents have concerns and case workers meeting with developmentally disabled adults.

The San Bernardino facility consists of three buildings, and employs approximately 600 workers. Inland Regional Center Executive Director Lavinia Johnson told Reuters the shooting happened at a conference center her group rented out for a county personnel holiday department.

*Related Image*


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Glenn Willwerth, who was near enough to the scene to hear shots being fired, told Fox News he saw a black SUV leaving afterward, driving slowly and deliberately. He said he saw people frantically pouring out of the building, some ducking behind cars. Another witness, Jim Estrada, told Fox News he saw 40 or 50 people stream out of the building with their hands up as emergency responders flooded the scene.

Authorities ordered news choppers to clear the area as they hunted the SUV and continued efforts to clear the complex. They were going door-to-door in the area, locking down buildings, as more than 70 area schools were reportedly on lockdown and mass transit was stopped.

Police were using a robot to search the building for possible explosives, even as they sought the gunmen. The Los Angeles Times reported that a device found inside was detonated, but it was not clear if it was a bomb. Police arrived within minutes, but there was no sign of the assailants.

*Related Image*


Expand / Contract

Witnesses described passing bodies on the ground as they fled, but it was not clear if, or how many, people were killed. A makeshift triage center was set up outside the facility. A local NBC videographer reported there were not enough ambulances to transport victims, and that people were using pickup trucks to carry victims to triage areas.

The event set off alarms across the country, including in New York City, where security was already beefed up for the annual Christmas tree-lighting ceremony Wednesday evening.

"We are aware of and are monitoring the situation in San Bernardino, Calif.," and NYPD spokesman said.

President Obama was briefed on the situation by his Homeland Security Advisor Lisa Monaco and asked to be updated on the situation as it develops.

The shooting came less than a week after a gunman killed three people and wounded nine in a shooting rampage at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs.


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## libertad

Attack at a disabled learning facility in San Bernadino. Suspects have been described as 3 white males but there are rumors that the attackers were Muslim which I hope is not true.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Obama calls for gun reforms in wake of San Bernardino shooting - CNNPolitics.com

*Obama calls for gun reforms in wake of San Bernardino shooting*



By Jeremy Diamond, CNN

Updated 5:06 PM ET, Wed December 2, 2015







President Obama reacts to San Bernardino shooting 01:43
*Story highlights*

Obama called for "common sense gun safety laws" in the wake of the shooting
"We should never think that this is just something that just happens," Obama said
Washington (CNN)President Barack Obama reiterated his call for more gun control reforms to make mass shootings in the U.S. "rare as opposed to normal" in the wake of a mass shooting in San Bernardino, California.

Speaking to CBS News moments after news broke of the shooting, Obama called for "common sense gun safety laws" and urged lawmakers to pass a law to prevent individuals on the "No Fly List" who are barred from boarding commercial flights from legally purchasing firearms.

The shooting occurred at the Inland Regional Center, a facility for people with developmental disabilities in San Bernardino, California.

"We don't yet know what the motives of the shooters are but what we do know is that there are steps we can take to make Americans safer," Obama said in the interview. "We should never think that this is just something that just happens in the ordinary course of events because it doesn't happen with the same frequency in other countries."

Obama said the pattern of U.S. mass shootings "has no parallel anywhere else in the world."

Emergency personnel responded late Wednesday morning to reports of a shooting that killed or injured as more than 20 people, according to law enforcement.

Law enforcement officials are now on the lookout for as many as three suspects believed to be armed with AK-47-type weapons who reportedly fled the scene of the shooting in a black SUV.

It is unclear as of now who the suspects are and what the motives were behind the shooting.





17 photos: San Bernardino shooting
Obama had been briefed on the shooting by his homeland security adviser Lisa Monaco moments before speaking with CBS News for a prescheduled interview.

Obama has spoken forcefully about the need for additional gun control laws to reduce the number of mass shootings in the country in the wake of past incidents in the country.

Speaking to reporters in Paris just a day earlier, Obama touched on the news of a shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic on Friday in which a lone gunman killed three people.

"I mean, I say this every time we go one of these mass shootings, this just doesn't happen in other countries," Obama said Tuesday.

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## Guynextdoor2

SICK B@$TARDS.

Fully expect the gun control lobby to strike back. I loved a John Oliver segment on this.

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## VCheng

All suspects in custody, dead or alive.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Looks like the party was held by people who were not actual employees of the center. May have been a rented venue situation.

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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> All suspects in custody, dead or alive.



Guns and gun lobby are America's version of the extreme religious lunatics in Pkistan. Both hold such sway in both societies that tells us that even in this day and age how cursed thinking can take root and be accepted by supposedly civilized societies. Both will not listen to reason.

I happened to mention getting rid of guns in another forum ( mostly American ) and the reaction was amazing. It was like saying secularism is good in Pakistan. Frankly I was surprised how intelligent and well informed people can support this evil gun sales. I know they go livid if you say anything against guns.

I suppose we are going to get the familar Barak speach followed by "We need more guns" and the killing cycle will continue. The fact is guns are bad. If I had access to guns since I turned 18 I reckon by now I would have shot at least dozen people. The fact is when people get angry if you have a gun you could end up killing. Whereas no gun, few punches and lots of shouting and it's all forgotten next day.

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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> Guns and gun lobby are America's version of the extreme religious lunatics in Pkistan. Both hold such sway in both societies that tells us that even in this day and age how cursed thinking can take root and be accepted by supposedly civilized societies. Both will not listen to reason.
> 
> I happened to mention getting rid of guns in another forum ( mostly American ) and the reaction was amazing. It was like saying secularism is good in Pakistan. Frankly I was surprised how intelligent and well informed people can support this evil gun sales. I know they go livid if you say anything against guns.
> 
> I suppose we are going to get the familar Barak speach followed by "We need more guns" and the killing cycle will continue. The fact is guns are bad. If I had access to guns since I turned 18 I reckon by now I would have shot at least dozen people. The fact is when people get angry if you have a gun you could end up killing. Whereas no gun, few punches and lots of shouting and it's all forgotten next day.



Let's wait until the suspects have been identified, Sir.


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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let's wait



My comment was general reflection on gun lobby and guns in USA rather then this specific incident. Of course this might be terrorism related but that does not detract from what I said. America is a great country in some ways but by god on the subject of guns it stumbles badly.

The other is is how America looks after it's weak and poor which is not very inspiring. However I acknowledge USA brings so much to the world. Most of all how it's multi-cultural composition set's a example for the world.

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## iPhone

Atanz said:


> My comment was general reflection on gun lobby and guns in USA rather then this specific incident. Of course this might be terrorism related but that does not detract from what I said. America is a great country in some ways but by god on the subject of guns it stumbles badly.
> 
> The other is is how America looks after it's weak and poor which is not very inspiring. However I acknowledge USA brings so much to the world. Most of all how it's multi-cultural composition set's a example for the world.


gun control debate can only be have if the suspects are white and "deranged". if it's ISIS (very unlikely) or domestic homegrown terrorism (muslim) than the debate and the response will be quiet different. But one thing though, dont talk about taking the guns away from americans. And here people thought Pakhtoons were rigid and stubborn folk.

So, until we find out, fingers crossed and "whodunnit" attitude.


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## Indus Pakistan

iPhone said:


> Pakhtoons were rigid



And have you ran into any?


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## Malik Alashter

Fresh news all suspects are dead.


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## iPhone

Atanz said:


> And have you ran into any?


Yes, quiet many.


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## rockstar08

Islamist , Radicals , Muslims Terrorist ? or Lone wolf , psycho path ?


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## Falcon29

rockstar08 said:


> Islamist , Radicals , Muslims Terrorist ? or Lone wolf , psycho path ?



If this is Muslims then this is retarded, we American Muslims usually don't have this issue. It isn't a suicidal lone depressed person it's apparently three individuals. I hope they aren't those black 'panther' folks who are only ones willing to do something dumb like this.

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## Death In Fire

One dead suspect confirmed as female.

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## F-22Raptor

2 dead suspects, 1 male, 1 female. A third suspect has been detained, but they are not certain if the suspect was involved. The FBI field director said they are still not ruling out terrorism, but it is a "possibility."


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## ganesh623

What are their names ?


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## AMDR

ganesh623 said:


> What are their names


One is Syed Farooq I think. The name of the female has not been given yet.

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## Vassnti

Mass shootings since Sandy Hook, in one map






Two answers move to Wyoming or start listening to Jim.


Australian comedian perfectly sums up why other countries think US gun laws are crazy - Vox


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## F-22Raptor

They were having a Christmas party at the center. It hasn't been confirmed but it sounds like this may have been a terrorist attack.


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## Falcon29

As soon as I saw shot up SUV I knew it was Muslims. Muslim attackers usually get thousands of bullets. Blacks get shot dead. Whites get handcuffed. Jews...well the police chasing Jew suspect would be bombed by F16's....



F-22Raptor said:


> They were having a Christmas party at the center. It hasn't been confirmed but it sounds like this may have been a terrorist attack.



It's a homicidal dumb attack that has no meaning or motive. I doubt it has anything to do with Christmas. Christmas holidays are not religious in this modern day. So don't frame it as Christian-Islamic feud. Vast majority of Americans are irreligious. Anyways if these attackers can't control themselves, move overseas. If not then commit suicide. If they end up doing lone attacks don't target Christians. There's a powerful entity which deserves it more than anyone else.

Anyways there are reports suspect was receiving boxes of chemicals at his residence and hence the authorities let him off the hook. You simply can't get away with manufacturing explosives. Somebody wanted this to happen.

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## F-22Raptor

The male suspect has been identified as Syed Farook. His father said, "he was very religious."


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## Roybot

F-22Raptor said:


> The male suspect has been identified as Syed Farook. His father said, "he was very religious."



I hope not Indian

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## Roybot

Looks South Asian, sisters name Saira Khan, so definitely a South Asian. Either Pakistani, Bangladeshi or Indian.


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## Zibago

ISIS?


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## Water Car Engineer

Here we go...


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## F-22Raptor

He was married and had a young baby. I wonder if the female was his wife.

His brother may have been involved to.


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## khujliwal

Roybot said:


> Looks South Asian, sisters name Saira Khan, so definitely a South Asian. Either Pakistani, Bangladeshi or Indian.


Looks very martial, so I doubt he is Indian or Bangladeshi. Hope he is not of Pakistani origin either. RIP innocents.

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## Water Car Engineer

We're going to live in a society where everything is monitored because of these psychopaths.

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## indiatester

<catharsis>The out come of this would be US banning Muslims. They will let the guns stay though.</catharsis>


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## Roybot




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## gslv

Falcon29 said:


> Jews come out unharmed by every single act of violence around the world.


Many Jews died in Mumbai attack.

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## F-22Raptor

Roybot said:


> View attachment 276533



To orphan a young baby like that makes him even more a piece of ****.

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## Falcon29

gslv said:


> Many Jews died in Mumbai attack.



Source? Maybe they aren't so lucky in the ME. In the West almost all plots against them are foiled. We don't see that kind of security standard for non-Jews.

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## gslv

Falcon29 said:


> Source? Maybe they aren't so lucky in the ME. In the West almost all plots against them are foiled. We don't see that kind of security standard for non-Jews.


Mumbai attacks: Jews tortured before executed during hostage crisis - Telegraph

jews were specifically targeted during the attack.

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## gslv

Falcon29 said:


> Source says 'disproportionate number of Jews among victims' yet they came out to be 6 in total. Most victims were local Indians. But the conclusion is everybody suffers similar fate in the eastern part of the world, in the West it is different story, Jews are exclusively unharmed. Now that's up to you to draw your own conclusions but I know what I think about that.


do you know the percentage of jews in Mumbai , considering the dead number the jews number are indeed disproportionate . You said now jew died anywhere in any terrorist act , i just proved otherwise.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Falcon29 said:


> As soon as I saw shot up SUV


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## Falcon29

gslv said:


> do you know the percentage of jews in Mumbai , considering the dead number the jews number are indeed disproportionate . You said now jew died anywhere in any terrorist act , i just proved otherwise.



As far as I remember, 150 plus were killed in Mumbai attacks. 143 being Hindu and 6 being Jew. Are you saying it's the other way around?



Hamartia Antidote said:


> View attachment 276542



??

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## gslv

Falcon29 said:


> As far as I remember, 150 plus were killed in Mumbai attacks. 143 being Hindu and 6 being Jew. Are you saying it's the other way around?


I was saying as the newspaper its about proportion that is in contrast to their population ratio , i dont think jews form 4% of population as their death number suggets.

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## kadamba-warrior

Falcon29 said:


> As far as I remember, 150 plus were killed in Mumbai attacks. 143 being Hindu and 6 being Jew. Are you saying it's the other way around?



Those 6 killed were not mere bystanders! They were sought out specifically for their religion! The Pakistanis drove all the way to Chabad house specifically in order to target them and you are still spouting your nonsense? Wtf dude!

How are you different to those nut bags exactly? Isn't this kind of hatred how many Islamist attacks inspired?

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## Hamartia Antidote

Falcon29 said:


> ??



Just showing their shot-up SUV.

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## anon45

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Just showing their shot-up SUV.




This just doesn't strike me as a terrorist attack, or at least not one connected to ISIS. Apparently the party was targeted, and they didn't go for the more populated building next to it and randomly kill people... that said they apparently had military style training and one of them worked there... workplace violence? But then why the other 2 and why leave behind your kid to do this?

Seems strange. Again could be terrorism...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Tragic event due to , angry citizen , angered at party may be he did not get a cake

People can be rude in parties hogging all the cake

We stand with the victims tonight

Lesson learned , pass the cake to the Muslim brother who sits in corner of the room secluded by all the officer members

I wonder what discussions took player or what caused the events to escalate to shooting violence

Just tragic

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## ito

Seem a terrorist attack! Initially I thought it is some random gun attack.


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## MastanKhan

People on this board may not like the name when it is released---.

It happened about 10 miles from where I live----. I used to live in Loma LInda many a years ago----which is real close tp the place of attack.

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## Tipu7

It's Terrorism or not, ISIS is involved or not. But Donald Trump now do has this event to use as political card. Every passing day is making lives of foreign Muslims tough, particularly Pakistanis.........

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## fatman17

why is this being turned into a India Pakistan trolling match. the accused was an American Muslim. End of story. innocent people have been killed.

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## Hyperion

Brainwashed wahabos on the lose!

RIP to the innocents. Someone kick all these naturalized citizens who can not integrate into the mainstream society back to their 'ideological' homelands.

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## jung41

*San Bernardino, California*: As many as three heavily armed attackers opened fire on a banquet at a social services center for the disabled on Wednesday, killing 14 people and seriously wounding more than a dozen others "as if they were on a mission," authorities said.

The attackers escaped, setting a large region east of Los Angeles on edge, but about four hours later police riddled a black SUV with gunfire two miles (3 kilometers) from the late-morning carnage.

A man and woman in the SUV with assault rifles, handguns and "assault-style clothing" were killed, Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said. A third person who was spotted running away near the scene of the gun battle was detained, but Burguan said it was unclear if that person had anything to do with the crime.

It was the deadliest mass shooting in a nation all too familiar with them since 2012, when a man killed 26 children and adults at a school in the Newtown, Connecticut.




A man and woman in the SUV with assault rifles, handguns and "assault-style clothing" were killed. AP

Police shed no light on a motive for Wednesday's massacre, which came just five days after a gunman opened fire at Planned Parenthood in Colorado, killing three.

In what authorities described as a precision assault, the gunmen invaded the Inland Regional Center and began shooting around 11 am. They opened fire in a conference area that the San Bernardino County Department of Public Health had rented out for a banquet, said Marybeth Feild, president and CEO of the center.

"They came prepared to do what they did, as if they were on a mission," the police chief said.

Authorities also found a potential explosive device found at the social service center.

That the violence happened at a place dedicated to helping people with developmental disabilities made it even harder for some to comprehend.

"These are all disabled kids, very disabled," said Sherry Esquerra, who was searching for her daughter and son-in-law, both of whom work at the center. "She gets all the services she possibly could for these kids. So I just don't understand why somebody would come in and start shooting."

FBI agents and other law enforcement authorities converged on the center and searched room to room for the attackers, but they had apparently escaped. Cervantes, the police spokeswoman, said there were reports from witnesses of one to three gunmen.

Several people locked themselves in their offices, desperately waiting to be rescued by police, after the gunfire erupted. Some texted their loved ones or telephoned them and whispered to them what was going on.

Ten of the wounded were hospitalized in critical condition, and three were in serious condition, San Bernardino Fire Chief Tom Hannemann said. Police cautioned that the numbers of dead and wounded were early estimates that could change.

No weapons were found at the center, though authorities were investigating unidentified items in the building and brought in bomb squads, Burguan said.

As the manhunt went on, stores, office buildings and at least one school were locked down in the city of 214,000 people about 60 miles (100 kilometers) east of Los Angeles, and roads were blocked off.

Triage units were set up outside the center, and people were seen being wheeled away on stretchers. Others walked quickly from a building with their hands up. They were searched by police before being reunited with loved ones.

One witness, Glenn Willwerth, who runs a business across the street, said he heard 10 to 15 shots and then saw an SUV with blacked out windows pull "very calmly, very slowly."

President Barack Obama was briefed on the attack by his homeland security adviser.

He said it was too early to know the shooters' motives, but urged the country to take steps to reduce the frequency of mass shootings. He told CBS that stricter gun laws, including stronger background checks, would make the country safer.

"The one thing we do know is that we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in the world, and there's some steps we could take, not to eliminate every one of these mass shootings, but to improve the odds that they don't happen as frequently," Obama said.

*California shooting suspect identified as Syed Farook, says US media*

One of the suspects in a mass shooting that left at least 14 people dead in California has been identified as a man named Syed Farook, US media reported.

Public records show that a man bearing the same name worked as an environmental health specialist for San Bernardino County, where the shooting took place.

The Los Angeles Times said that two law enforcement sources had given the suspect's name as Syed Farook.

A man carrying the same name is listed as residing at an apartment complex where the suspects of Wednesday's shooting were tracked by police.

Wednesday's attack took place during a holiday party being held at Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, a huge facility that provides services to people with disabilities.

Authorities said they were looking at reports the attack might be linked to a disgruntled employee.

San Bernardino police chief Jarrod Burguan said he was informed that someone left the event following a dispute prior to the shooting.

"Somebody did leave, but we have no idea if that is the person that came back."

The shooting triggered a massive manhunt that ended hours later with police shooting dead two suspects, a man and a woman.

_NBC News_ said another of the suspects was believed to be Farook's brother.

The identity of the woman was unknown.

Fourteen killed in San Bernadino shooting: Cops identify Syed Farook as one of two dead suspects - Firstpost


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I would like to know what debate took place before the event started

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## Hyperion

You mean motive? FBI on it..... don't think they'll be releasing any info soon, as there maybe more sleeper cells.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I would like to know what debate took place before the event started


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## Hamartia Antidote

Hyperion said:


> You mean motive? FBI on it..... don't think they'll be releasing any info soon, as there maybe more sleeper cells.



One of the shooters was an employee of the company that had the party.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It was a clear company problem , neglected employee , comes to party people make fun of him , who know may be don't give him cake , he gets angry and goes all nutty

May be some lunatic fellow employees , blamed some shiat on him and announced it on company party

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## Hyperion

Let's see what was the real motive. From the guys getup, doesn't seem the Salafist type, however, I maybe wrong as looks can be deceiving. 



Hamartia Antidote said:


> One of the shooters was an employee of the company that had the party.

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## F-22Raptor

The female has been identified as Tashfeen Malik.


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## Aham Brahmasmi

Atanz said:


> *intelligent and well informed*









RIP to Dead

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## Hamartia Antidote

Hyperion said:


> Let's see what was the real motive. From the guys getup, doesn't seem the Salafist type, however, I maybe wrong as looks can be deceiving.



I'm just saying it wasn't some random place targeted for the sake of having a lot of people..
If there was 2 people or 200 people at that party it sounds like it still would have been the target,.

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## Dance

He said that Mr. Farook was born and raised in the United States and that his parents are from Pakistan.

Suspect Was Born and Raised in U.S., Official Says - The New York Times

Such a shame


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## F-22Raptor

Multiple explosive devices of a pipe bomb design have been disposed of.


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## jaunty

F-22Raptor said:


> The female has been identified as Tashfeen Malik.



100% South Asian name. Could be Pakistani or Indian.


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## iPhone

Dispute at a party triggered it, it seems. Farooq left the party angry and came back packing. Fukin' degenerate.


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## Hyperion

From the latest information, it seems more like rage than jehad. If it indeed is rage, then it's about gun control only.



devil shaitan said:


> Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik
> 
> could be jihad


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## iPhone

Explosives were all fake.


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## F-22Raptor

The female was the mother of the 6 month old daughter. I feel terrible for the baby, having to grow up orphaned an knowing her parents were mass murderers? That will be traumatizing, god bless her.

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## Trisonics

Hyperion said:


> From the latest information, it seems more like rage than jehad. If it indeed is rage, then it's about gun control only.


It still doesn't make sense. Why would they dress up in tactical gear and arm themselves with so many guns?

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## Hyperion

Rage or jehad, whatever it is, one thing is for certain that american born confused desis are going to feel the heat, no matter how innocent they are. This is the second time that Americans of Pakistani origin have given the United States an excuse, and this excuse is going to cost them dearly.

I'd highly recommend you people to get your priorities straight, as you can not have one leg on one side of the Atlantic and the other firmly entrenched in archaic Middle East. Some serious introspection is what the doctor has on advice for all of you.



iPhone said:


> Dispute at a party triggered it, it seems. Farooq left the party angry and came back packing. Fukin' degenerate.

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## F-22Raptor

iPhone said:


> Explosives were all fake.



The top police officer just confirmed that there were explosives. This had been planned for some time. They both wore armor as well.


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## Bang Galore

_"*Dressed in black face masks and tactical gear*, armed with long guns and pistols, the shooters entered a holiday party for health workers as it was in full swing

Each had an assault rifle and a semiautomatic handgun when they died, he said "_

_California shootings: Shooters identified as a couple; Tashfeen Malik and Syed Farook | Stuff.co.nz_


Would be surprised if this was a "rage" attack.

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## Dance

Hyperion said:


> Rage or jehad, whatever it is, one thing is for certain that american born confused desis are going to feel the heat, no matter how innocent they are. This is the second time that Americans of Pakistani origin have given the United States an excuse, and this excuse is going to cost them dearly.
> 
> I'd highly recommend you people to get your priorities straight, as you can not have one leg on one side of the Atlantic and the other firmly entrenched in archaic Middle East. Some serious introspection is what the doctor has on advice for all of you.



Pakistani's in the US tend to be educated and successful unlike some of the other diaspora (UK) Most of the Pakistanis that I have encountered in the US aren't even that religious or they tend to be moderate. But it is a worrying trend that people being born and raised in places like the US, Europe, Australia, etc are becoming more extremist than people being raised in places like Pakistan.

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## Hyperion

Because they're stuck in a time bubble...... most of their parents left Pakistan while 'Islamization' of Pakistan was almost complete 1973 - 1988, and never visited after that. Look at the traditional clothes they and their children wear at weddings, parties etc....all blasts from the past.... similarly, their mindsets are of the same era as well. They can't actually decide on what they are, an identity crisis at the subconscious level.... and whenever that happens, your local imams are there to fill the vacuum and you get fundos 2.0.



Dance said:


> But it is a worrying trend that people being born and raised in places like the US, Europe, Australia, etc are becoming more extremist than people being raised in places like Pakistan.

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## CHD

Its the responsibility of American Govternment and Media to come and support muslims against hate crime and dont give terrorists opportunity to influence the minds of retarded muslims, the more the they push muslims towards isolation the more they are helping terrorists

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## Dance

Hyperion said:


> Because they're stuck in a time bubble...... most of their parents left Pakistan while 'Islamization' of Pakistan was almost complete 1973 - 1988, and never visited after that. Look at the traditional clothes they and their children wear at weddings, parties etc....all blasts from the past.... similarly, their mindsets are of the same era as well. They can't actually decide on what they are, an identity crisis at the subconscious level.... and whenever that happens, your local imams are there to fill the vacuum and you get fundos 2.0.



To be fair, a lot of people left around that time and turned out to be normal. But yes, I get what you're saying. It has come to the point where what's being preached by imams and online needs to be strictly monitored


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## iPhone

What's really scary is that nowadays even small disputes are ending up in gun violence. The amount of firepower available to people is just insane. And this female, look at her, instead of cooling down her husband, she done went and picked up an assault rifle herself and went on a shooting rampage.

Utter disregard to human life, utter disregard to their own and their kid's life. I thought desi women were suppose to be timid and kitchen oriented. Wtf is going on in the world.


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## Roybot

iPhone said:


> Dispute at a party triggered it, it seems. Farooq left the party angry and came back packing. Fukin' degenerate.



Yes people just happen to have pipe bombs lying around in their house, incase they have a "dispute" at their Christmas party.

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## iPhone

Roybot said:


> Yes people just happen to have pipe bombs lying around in their house, incase they have a "dispute" at their Christmas party.


Dont shoot the messenger. That's what the news media said. He had a dispute at a work party and left angry.


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## mpk1988

Kid should be given to social services.. Away from the toxic environment he was going to be exposed to.
Also, bringing others along with tactical gear for a 'rage attack'!!! Wahh.. Looks like another batshit jihadi who wants to complain and needs any excuse to blow up .. Oh woe is me !!!

They need to develop something to screen people for ideology and believing and being sympathetic to terrorism... Screen and whack on spot.

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## Maler

Names of dead suspects were Syed Frook and Tashfeen Malik. Sounds like Pakistani names??? Anybody can confirm??

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## Assange

I am really worried because this incident will give enjoy fuel to blame Islam to be a terror preaching religion...

Let us hope this does not happen....


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## krakatoa

Maler said:


> Names of dead suspects were Syed Frook and Tashfeen Malik. Sounds like Pakistani names??? Anybody can confirm??


just heard that the guy is US born. dont know if his family originally belongs to Pakistan though.


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## batmannow

*Suspects Syed Farook, Tashfeen Malik kill 14 in California shooting: authorities*
AP | REUTERS — UPDATED ABOUT AN HOUR AGO
WHATSAPP
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PRINT

Mayor Carey Davis (C) talks to the media after an emergency city council meeting. ─ Reuters
police helicopter flies over emergency vehicles during a manhunt following the mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. —Reuters




Police officers conduct a manhunt after the mass shooting in San Bernardino. ─ Reuters




Mayor Carey Davis (C) talks to the media after an emergency city council meeting. ─ Reuters





A police helicopter flies over emergency vehicles during a manhunt following the mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. —Reuters


LOS ANGELES: At least two heavily armed attackers opened fire on a banquet at a social services centre for the disabled Wednesday, killing 14 people and seriously wounding more than a dozen others in a precision assault that looked “as if they were on a mission,” authorities said.

The armed couple suspected of the attack were identified by authorities on Wednesday as Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and Tashfeen Malik, 27. Relatives have said the two were married.

They were later slain in a shootout with police. Police say they believe they were the only two shooters.

One officer was injured in the confrontation, San Bernardino police spokeswoman Sergeant Vicki Cervantes told reporters.

The police officer was injured in the gunfight with the two suspects, who were confronted in their getaway vehicle after fleeing the scene of the shooting.

Cervantes said the officer's injuries were not considered to be life-threatening.

Police Chief Jarrod Burguan at a news briefing earlier said that as many as three suspects were believed to have made their getaway in a dark-coloured sport utility vehicle.




Police Chief Jarrod Burguan speaks at a news briefing after the shooting. ─ AP

A man and woman with assault rifles, handguns and "assault-style clothing" were killed, the police chief said.

He said it was possible that a third shooter remained at large and that there were other people "involved in the planning" of the crime.

Burguan said 14 people were killed and 14 others wounded in the initial shooting spree, which unfolded at 11am on the campus of the Inland Regional Center, an agency that serves the developmentally disabled.

Cervantes later revised the toll of wounded to 17.

"We have no information at this point that this is terrorist-related, in the traditional sense that people may be thinking," the police chief said. "Obviously, at minimum, we have a domestic-type terrorist-type situation that occurred here."

The chief added he knew of no possible motive for the shooting spree.






A map showing the shooting site. — AFP


The Los Angeles Times, citing information from a senior federal official who was monitoring the case, reported that investigators believe one of the shooters left the party after getting into an argument and returned with one or two armed companions.

The police chief said he was aware that someone left the party following some kind of dispute but did not know whether that individual returned.

Authorities also detained an individual seen running away from the vehicle, but investigators were not immediately sure that person was involved in the case, Burguan said at the news conference.

Police searched door to door in the Redlands neighborhood a few kilometres from the site of the attack.

Bomb disposal technicians were examining a number of suspicious items left by the armed assailants at the Inland Regional Center, including one that was "believed to be a potentially explosive device".






Law enforcement officers search for a possible suspect following a shootout with suspects of a mass shooting at the Inland Regional Center by multiple gunmen on December 2, 2015 in San Bernardino, California. —AFP


David Bowdich, an assistant regional Federal Bureau of Investigation director, said federal agents and local law enforcement were being cautious about entering a house in Redlands because of concerns about explosives that might have been left there.

As the suspects fled, authorities ordered a security “lockdown” of all local schools, as well as city and county buildings, and area hospitals were placed on alert, Burguan said.

The shooting rampage in San Bernardino, about 100 km east of Los Angeles, marks the deadliest United States (US) gun violence since the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012, in which 27 people, including the gunman, were killed.

*'Suspect showed no signs of unusual behaviour'*
A man identifying himself as the brother-in-law of one of the suspects said he has no idea what might have motivated the attack.

Farhan Khan, who said his sister was married to one of the people suspected of carrying out the attack, offered his condolences to the victims.

"Why would he do that? Why would he do something like this? I have absolutely no idea, I am in shock myself," Khan said at a news conference in Anaheim, California, south of Los Angeles.

Syed Rizwan Farook's co-worker Patrick Baccari says the suspect travelled to Saudi Arabia this year and was gone for about a month in the spring.

When he came back word got around that Farook had been married, and the woman he described as a pharmacist joined him shortly afterward. A baby followed.

Baccari says the reserved Farook showed no signs of unusual behavior, although he grew out his beard several months ago.

Baccari said he been sitting at the same table as Farook at an office party Wednesday morning, but his co-worker suddenly disappeared, leaving his coat on his chair.

Baccari said he had stepped into the bathroom when the shooting started and suffered minor wounds from shrapnel slicing through the wall.

A person by Farook's name was listed on county documents as an employee of the San Bernardino County Environmental Health Department. That department had gathered on Wednesday for a holiday party at the shooting site.

A man carrying the same name as Farook is also listed as residing at an apartment complex where the suspects of Wednesday's shooting were tracked by police.

*California Muslims condemn 'horrific' mass shooting*
California's Muslim community expressed its horror on Wednesday at the mass shooting Authorities have drawn no connection between the attack and radical Islam at this stage in the investigation.

Hussam Ayloush, executive director of the Los Angeles chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), said its members “unequivocally condemn the horrific act that happened today".

*Inland Regional Center: the shooting site*





The Inland Regional Center complex is pictured in an aerial photo following the shooting. ─ Reuters


The Inland Regional Center is one of 21 facilities set up by the state and run under contract by non-profit organisations to serve people with developmental disabilities, said Nancy Lungren, spokeswoman for the California Department of Developmental Services.

Lavinia Johnson, executive director of the facility, told CNN the suspects opened fire inside a conference building in the complex where a holiday party was being held for county health department personnel.

The conference building sits adjacent to the two larger three-story buildings that house most of the agency's offices at the complex, Johnson said.

Asked whether that meant that the Inland Regional Center staff and clients were safe, she said she understood they were being evacuated.



*String of shootings*
So far in 2015, there have been more than 350 shootings in which four or more people were wounded, according to the crowd-sourced website shootingtracker.com, which keeps a running tally of US gun violence.

The shooting in California comes less than a week after a gunman killed three people and wounded nine in a shooting rampage at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

In October, a gunman killed nine people at a college in Oregon, and in June, a white gunman killed nine black churchgoers in South Carolina.

Gun control advocates, including Democratic President Barack Obama, say easy access to firearms is a major factor in the shooting epidemic, while the National Rifle Association and other pro-gun advocates say the Second Amendment of the US Constitution guarantees Americans the right to bear arms.


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## batmannow

Maler said:


> Names of dead suspects were Syed Frook and Tashfeen Malik. Sounds like Pakistani names??? Anybody can confirm??


Yes looks like Pakistani - Americans ?
But terrorists have no colour , no race , no religion .
We need to remember that also !



Assange said:


> I am really worried because this incident will give enjoy fuel to blame Islam to be a terror preaching religion...
> 
> Let us hope this does not happen....


This is meant to be like that , & that's its Aim , target innocents Muslims & none Muslims , create a cycle of violence , so no one has any way out ?
Muslims get targeted , by none Muslims , who were targeted by so called ISIS ?
Its all scripted !


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## Mrc

American born means american...does it not?

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## pak-marine

Hope the world understand that no matter how many terrorist u kill if this mad ideology is not removed unfortunately we will continue witnessing this mad evil blood shed by those blinded by this stupidity..

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## pak-marine

Maler said:


> Names of dead suspects were Syed Frook and Tashfeen Malik. Sounds like Pakistani names??? Anybody can confirm??


Yeah pakistani or indian origin names ..

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## JonAsad

Maler said:


> Names of dead suspects were Syed Frook and Tashfeen Malik. Sounds like Pakistani names??? Anybody can confirm??


Nope- they are american names of amrikan nationals-


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## Assange

Mrc said:


> American born means american...does it not?



Yes only this time around they are going to bold, cap and red highlight the word Muslim in the news....and will miniature the word American....


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## Politico

alrady starting 2 notice stiff stares here in london this morning as i walked on street


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## GURU DUTT

pak-marine said:


> Yeah pakistani or indian origin names ..


well maliks are basically punjabies have some hindu friends with malik sirname who told me they are basically from siraiki belt of pakistan but if the attackers are found to be pakistani origin then you sir already know what gonna happen i hope you bsir remmeber that failed time square bombing suspect ?


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## batmannow

JonAsad said:


> Nope- they are american names of amrikan nationals-


Look at their relative,s names too ?



GURU DUTT said:


> well maliks are basically punjabies have some hindu friends with malik sirname who told me they are basically from siraiki belt of pakistan but if the attackers are found to be pakistani origin then you sir already know what gonna happen i hope you bsir remmeber that failed time square bombing suspect ?



Nothing will happen , untill if the so called super power decides to open , world war 3, which is not a red bull you can get by a store ?


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## Zibago

Was it isis or a.lone wolf?


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## punit

batmannow said:


> Yes looks like Pakistani - Americans ?
> But terrorists have no colour , no race , no religion .
> We need to remember that also !
> 
> 
> This is meant to be like that , & that's its Aim , target innocents Muslims & none Muslims , create a cycle of violence , so no one has any way out ?
> Muslims get targeted , by none Muslims , who were targeted by so called ISIS ?
> *Its all scripted* !


just like APS Drama?

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## GURU DUTT

batmannow said:


> Look at their relative,s names too ?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing will happen , untill if the so called super power decides to open , world war 3, which is not a red bull you can get by a store ?


you can say anything my elder bro just talked to me from LA and he told me ... khair jane do 

point is if this is found that attackers were american muslims or pakistani origin then i dont have to tell you what kind of situation will arise for all the pakistani daisporra in US and with elections around will further strenthen people like donald trump for the US presidential race and there idiology towards muslims....... tell me with full honesty am i wrong


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## JonAsad

GURU DUTT said:


> well maliks are basically punjabies have some hindu friends with malik sirname who told me they are basically from siraiki belt of pakistan but if the attackers are *found to be pakistani origin then you sir already know what gonna happen* i hope you bsir remmeber that failed time square bombing suspect ?


what gona happen?-
f-16 sales will stop?-

we are waiting for "that gona happen" still-


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## monitor

Maler said:


> Names of dead suspects were Syed Frook and Tashfeen Malik. Sounds like Pakistani names??? Anybody can confirm??


Wheither they are Pakistani or other national doesnot matter what is great relief that this attack seems not related to any attack by alqaida or is but by some crazy ex employee.


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## ito

How can one kill innocent disabled people??

This is what happens when religion becomes the center around which your life revolves.

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## GURU DUTT

JonAsad said:


> what gona happen?-
> f-16 sales will stop?-
> 
> we are waiting for "that gona happen" still-


well nothing gonna happen to pakistan but worry about apkistani diasporra in USA dont act so naive jon bhai you know what im talking about ....

PS... you still worried about potential sale of F16s common man its gonna be .... khair jane do


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## JonAsad

GURU DUTT said:


> well nothing gonna happen to pakistan but worry about apkistani diasporra in USA dont act so naive jon bhai you know what im talking about ....


what happened to Pakistani Diaspora after Faisal Shazad?-


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## GURU DUTT

JonAsad said:


> what happened to Pakistani Diaspora after Faisal Shazad?-


ask them the treatment they started getting for finding jobs or house on rent or there social life in US after the shehzad episode dont be naive you know what im talking about


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## JonAsad

ito said:


> How can one kill innocent disabled people??
> 
> This is what happens* when religion becomes the center around which your life revolves.*


Religion is the center around which my life revolves- i cant even think of killing an ant let alone people- so you are wrong here-

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## JonAsad

GURU DUTT said:


> ask them the treatment they started getting for finding jobs or house on rent or there social life in US after the shehzad episode dont be naive you know what im talking about


Guru difficulty in finding jobs - house on rent depends on these matters?-


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## The BrOkEn HeArT

RIP innocents.



pak-marine said:


> Hope the world understand that no matter how many terrorist u kill if this mad ideology is not removed unfortunately we will continue witnessing this mad evil blood shed by those blinded by this stupidity..


Which ideology?


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## GURU DUTT

JonAsad said:


> Guru difficulty in finding jobs - house on rent depends on these matters?-


challo ji matti pao jon bhai sanu ki ... aap khush raho mere liye itna hi kafee hai


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## thesameguy

Officially it hadn't been declared a terrorist incident yet. But media and islamophobes won't stop jumping to conclusions.
Bottom line is that we Muslims love our religion and know it's the only correct path and will keep practicing our peaceful religion, no matter what the world says or thinks.

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## JonAsad

GURU DUTT said:


> challo ji matti pao jon bhai sanu ki ... aap khush raho mere liye itna hi kafee hai


Guru pra kal amrika mein aik Pakistani family k haan abortion ho jaye to usk pechay b yhi wajah ho gi?-


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## $@rJen

This is what happens when this western countries Add the people that doesn't sync. how many have we witnessed in EU and North America??


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## punit

thesameguy said:


> Officially it hadn't been declared a terrorist incident yet. But media and islamophobes won't stop jumping to conclusions.
> Bottom line is that we Muslims love our religion and know it's the only correct path and will keep practicing our peaceful religion, no matter what the world says or thinks.


ISIS says the same. go argue with them.

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

thesameguy said:


> Officially it hadn't been declared a terrorist incident yet. But media and islamophobes won't stop jumping to conclusions.
> Bottom line is that we Muslims love our religion and know it's the only correct path and will keep practicing our *peaceful* *religion*, no matter what the world says or thinks.


We know that.


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## pak-marine

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> RIP innocents.
> 
> 
> Which ideology?


The radical buddhist neo conservative

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## batmannow

GURU DUTT said:


> you can say anything my elder bro just talked to me from LA and he told me ... khair jane do
> 
> point is if this is found that attackers were american muslims or pakistani origin then i dont have to tell you what kind of situation will arise for all the pakistani daisporra in US and with elections around will further strenthen people like donald trump for the US presidential race and there idiology towards muslims....... tell me with full honesty am i wrong


& you think after , in america they will kill all the Pakistanis or Muslims?lolzz
My friend , if that happens that means USA is accepting the rule of IsIS on Muslims & in this world in general ?
My friend , I'm now on Skype with my Pakistani wife in USA , so I think I know more better then what you & your brother even can imagine ?
That's a terrorist act , they were terrorists , & as common Muslims we , should fight against them specially their ideology ?
U can kill peoples , but not their often stupid ideology ?


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## monitor

ito said:


> How can one kill innocent disabled people??
> 
> This is what happens when religion becomes the center around which your life revolves.


Relagion was not involve in this attack. A ex employee named sayed faruq carried out the attack for personal reason. A Muslim man attack doesnot make every Muslim or islam as crazy ideology.

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## ito

JonAsad said:


> Religion is the center around which my life revolves- i cant even think of killing an ant let alone people- so you are wrong here-



99% of terror attacks since 9/11 happened because of religion.


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## GURU DUTT

JonAsad said:


> *Guru pra kal amrika mein aik Pakistani family k haan abortion ho jaye to usk pechay b yhi wajah ho gi*?-



 what kind of twisted logik is that jon bhai 

and if you really worried about pakistanies in USA then pray it dosent blows owt of proportions cause it will and you know it way too well


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## RazorMC

Other news sources are suggesting a personal motive against the deceased.

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## Yaduveer

Another setback for pakistan's image in the west.

He was of Pakistani origin.Both of his parents are from Pakistan.

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## RazorMC

punit said:


> ISIS says the same. go argue with them.


Thank you for aligning yourself with Islamophobes.

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## ito

monitor said:


> Relagion was not involve in this attack. A ex employee named sayed faruq carried out the attack for personal reason. A Muslim man attack doesnot make every Muslim or islam as crazy ideology.



FBI is already considering terrorism as a possible motive,


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## batmannow

punit said:


> just like APS Drama?


APS wasn't was a drama , like Indian Parliament attack at all ?
We have all the proves , all links & we have shared it to our friends .



GURU DUTT said:


> what kind of twisted logik is that jon bhai
> 
> and if you really worried about pakistanies in USA then pray it dosent blows owt of proportions cause it will and you know it way too well


Don't get infected , with Pakistanis been under trauma after this attack , its not new to them in america ?


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## Babu999

Were shooters Pakistani by name?


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## RazorMC

Yaduveer said:


> Another setback for pakistan's image in the west.
> 
> He was of Pakistani origin.Both of his parents are from Pakistan.


Yes, yes. ISI was controlling them.

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## batmannow

monitor said:


> Wheither they are Pakistani or other national doesnot matter what is great relief that this attack seems not related to any attack by alqaida or is but by some crazy ex employee.


It will be found later , just wait ?lolzz
All nicly scripted , false flagers ?lolzz


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## I.R.A

GURU DUTT said:


> what kind of twisted logik is that jon bhai
> 
> and if you really worried about pakistanies in USA then pray *it dosent blows owt of proportions* cause it will and you know it way too well




They cavity searched one of your's so in response did you start cavity searching each one of their's landing in your country?

You personal wishes aside common Americans are not as dumb and fool as some chaddiiz are.

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## monitor

ito said:


> FBI is already considering terrorism as a possible motive,


Not surprising due to islamphobia created by media fuel by some stupid Muslim Activity.

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## batmannow

punit said:


> ISIS says the same. go argue with them.


Have they claim the resposiblity yet or you are acting on their behalf ?lolzz



ito said:


> 99% of terror attacks since 9/11 happened because of religion.


No terrorists were attacking way before then that ?
Check the history first ?


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## Yaduveer

RazorMC said:


> Yes, yes. ISI was controlling them.



ISI may not be controlling them.

But this Farookhi was of Pakistani origin.

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## punit

batmannow said:


> APS wasn't was a drama , like Indian Parliament attack at all ?
> We have all the proves , all links & we have shared it to our friends .
> 
> 
> Don't get infected , with Pakistanis been under trauma after this attack , its not new to them in america ?


of course ! we have to believe you !


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## batmannow

ito said:


> FBI is already considering terrorism as a possible motive,


Sure then they need to charge all of their police men's involved in blackmrns shootings too?
Then the school shootings were also planned by ISIS?lolzz


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## punit

RazorMC said:


> Thank you for aligning yourself with Islamophobes.


 proud one!



batmannow said:


> Sure then they need to charge all of their police men's involved in blackmrns shootings too?
> Then the school shootings were also planned by ISIS?lolzz


APS was staged for sure !


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## batmannow

punit said:


> of course ! we have to believe you !


Shouldn't be believing me , go belive ISIS & bow to their stupid claphite ?lolzz


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## batmannow

punit said:


> proud one!
> 
> 
> APS was staged for sure !


You can think whatever , but was investigated & proven by all the NATO countries intell ?lolzz
Off course RAW wasn't included ?lolzz


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## JonAsad

ito said:


> 99% of terror attacks since 9/11 happened because of religion.


why before 9/11- the world's history is full of terror attacks happening because of religion- so its not new-

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## Zarvan

pak-marine said:


> Hope the world understand that no matter how many terrorist u kill if this mad ideology is not removed unfortunately we will continue witnessing this mad evil blood shed by those blinded by this stupidity..


Really ? MQM has killed pretty much same numbers.Now on the topic in several years this is first mass shooting done by a Muslim. Few had resulted in more deaths but as attackers were not Muslims they are not called terrorists. I am pretty sure if white Supremists or a man who doesn't get attention from girls ends up killing 100 innocents in one attack it won't still be called terrorism. Western Hypocrisy at its best. Still what happened is bad and tragic although looks like it was Job issue.


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## rockstar08

pak-marine said:


> The radical buddhist neo conservative



bas ker bhai , kyun aag laga raha hai inko  

on Topic .. i wish someday US will say , we are bringing our troops back from ME and Afghanistan .. let them fcuk each other ... we are across the Atlantic .. we dont give a Sh!t ... and than they ( US and Canada ) can live in peace ..



Zarvan said:


> Really ? MQM has killed pretty much same numbers.Now on the topic in several years this is first mass shooting done by a Muslim. Few had resulted in more deaths but as attackers were not Muslims they are not called terrorists. I am pretty sure if white Supremists or a man who doesn't get attention from girls ends up killing 100 innocents in one attack it won't still be called terrorism. Western Hypocrisy at its best. Still what happened is bad and tragic although looks like it was Job issue.



Where did MQM come from ??

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## JonAsad

Yaduveer said:


> Another setback for pakistan's image in the west.
> 
> *He was of Pakistani origin.Both of his parents are from Pakistan.*


so what? hitler was Austrian origin-


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## Guynextdoor2

Oh f**k . As of last night I thought it was one of those Columbine type shootings.


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## Harisudan

thesameguy said:


> Officially it hadn't been declared a terrorist incident yet. But media and islamophobes won't stop jumping to conclusions.
> Bottom line is that we Muslims love our religion and know it's the only correct path and will keep practicing our peaceful religion, no matter what the world says or thinks.


I do accept that Islam preaches peace.. But why does all sorts of nonsenses in all over the world happens in the name of Islam..? Is it that complicated a religion to understand for common man, that nobles could lure him to idiocy and make him die for the ideology.?


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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> My comment was general reflection on gun lobby and guns in USA rather then this specific incident. Of course this might be terrorism related but that does not detract from what I said. America is a great country in some ways but by god on the subject of guns it stumbles badly.
> 
> The other is is how America looks after it's weak and poor which is not very inspiring. However I acknowledge USA brings so much to the world. Most of all how it's multi-cultural composition set's a example for the world.



Now that the shooter's identities are known, what do you think, Sir?


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## Kambojaric

As far as I am aware, religion had no role to play in this attack. If this is the case then Mods please change the thread title as it is giving the wrong message.


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## Chinese-Dragon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *It was a clear company problem , neglected employee , comes to party people make fun of him , who know may be don't give him cake , he gets angry and goes all nutty*




I doubt this happened because they did not give him cake.

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## mpk1988

This is the problem.. More people here defending islam already and saying this is not islam before condemning the attack and talking about stopping the ideology. Actions always speak louder than words.

You want to preach about the right things, preach to the radicalized people and try to change their mindset. This is the last thing people want to hear after such incidents. 

Also, tactical gear and more than one person involved in the shooting makes it more likely to be some jihadi act.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This year , all 12 months have seen Gun shooting in USA , and this is no different as there was a direct argument reported at party

Normally these parties are quite lame , you have good food , most folks are in good mode , potluck may be folks bring food , eat food . Your boss gives a short speech , and tells folks don't expect a bonus

Cake is normally the first thing every one wants

I am just suspecting that the criminal , was involved in some major discussion about some company issue Because they have been killed now we will never know what discussion took place

Some companies also do "FIRE" people just before the Christmas party

I recall one company laid off like 5-10 people before Christmas party and their excuse was they tend to do it so , that they can focus on people who are in company future plans , I personally thought it was quite brutal but it happens, the remaining employees attend the party as if nothing happened

If they were indeed ideological culprits they would have stayed back and went into near by buildings to do maximum damage

Just shocking events

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## New Resolve

Da f is wrong with people.


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## VCheng

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I doubt this happened because they did not give him cake.



Now watch his family and friends claim that he was a good guy and they had no idea he was bonkers. They all will lie.

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## Azad-Kashmiri

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Fourteen people are believed dead and more than a dozen injured Wednesday after three gunmen "on a mission" burst into a San Bernardino, Calif., social services facility where employees were hosting a holiday party, and police were hunting three suspects who appear to have escaped.



This is disgusting and always innocent people die. Amrika had shooting in doctors office not long, I saw headline on internet.


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## General General

Gun lobbyists: if only the disabled people had guns of their own, they would have defended themselves.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> This is disgusting and always innocent people die. Amrika had shooting in doctors office not long, I saw headline on internet.




The shooting at hospitals or doctor's office normally happens due to 30,000 to 40,000 dollar hospital bills they charge to patients for 4-7 days hospitalization literally bankrupting a middle class person if they ever have serious medical need

Some of the private hospitals have "Electrical doors" and guards that confirm why you want to enter Hospital , and you are only allowed in after they confirm you have a patient registered in the hospital


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## batmannow

mpk1988 said:


> This is the problem.. More people here defending islam already and saying this is not islam before condemning the attack and talking about stopping the ideology. Actions always speak louder than words.
> 
> You want to preach about the right things, preach to the radicalized people and try to change their mindset. This is the last thing people want to hear after such incidents.
> 
> Also, tactical gear and more than one person involved in the shooting makes it more likely to be some jihadi act.


Who made them radicalized ,for fighting western wars ?
Muslims & their countries ?
Or west it self ?

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## Moonlight

ito said:


> How can one kill innocent disabled people??
> 
> This is what happens when religion becomes the center around which your life revolves.



I wish religion was the part of their life. The real religion, not the ISIS's kinda religion. They preach to kill people and Islam preaches to spread love and peace. Killing one person is like killing the humanity. That is the real Islam.

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## Moonlight

mpk1988 said:


> This is the problem.. More people here defending islam already and saying this is not islam before condemning the attack and talking about stopping the ideology. Actions always speak louder than words.
> 
> You want to preach about the right things, preach to the radicalized people and try to change their mindset. This is the last thing people want to hear after such incidents.
> 
> Also, tactical gear and more than one person involved in the shooting makes it more likely to be some jihadi act.



Before condemning? Right after the names were declared, almost everyone started bashing Muslims for it. We do condemn it. Those radicalized minded have hurt Muslims and Islam the most. What you expect from Muslims? Who is the creator of it? Shouldn't we all stand against it? Why only Muslims? Ok if a single person is involved then it's fine? How many times white men have shoot people in theaters.

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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> Another setback for pakistan's image in the west.
> 
> He was of Pakistani origin.Both of his parents are from Pakistan.



This only adds to the great damage already done by location of OBL's killing and the attempted Times Square bombing.

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## pak-marine

Zarvan said:


> Really ? MQM has killed pretty much same numbers.Now on the topic in several years this is first mass shooting done by a Muslim. Few had resulted in more deaths but as attackers were not Muslims they are not called terrorists. I am pretty sure if white Supremists or a man who doesn't get attention from girls ends up killing 100 innocents in one attack it won't still be called terrorism. Western Hypocrisy at its best. Still what happened is bad and tragic although looks like it was Job issue.


Here u go molvi comes and like his old routine brings west , draculas , mqm , ifs & buts these and those .... bla , bla , bla & bla 

Stop being an appologist for radical fundos .. Its a lost cause those who have paid the price do know this kind .. Its the mad ideology where lies the evil and if its not crushed with brute force than the world will continue witnessing such atrocities

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## Lonely Hermit

Falcon29 said:


> As far as I remember, 150 plus were killed in Mumbai attacks. 143 being Hindu and 6 being Jew. Are you saying it's the other way around?


Mumbai city has 18% muslim population and close 40 muslims were also slaughtered during the attack apart from 15 different nationalities by Pakistan sponsored terrorist.


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## Moonlight

Gotta share this one. :p

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## GURU DUTT

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> I wish religion was the part of their life. The real religion, not the ISIS's kinda religion. They preach to kill people and Islam preaches to spread love and peace. Killing one person is like killing the humanity. That is the real Islam.


i really admire your noble virtues lady but my point is if muslims are really against such people what have muslims done to control such people ?

its onli one part in condemming "terrorists who are bringing bad name to islam& muslims" but its totally diffrent when you start control them and stop them before or alert athurities about there "evil"designs....... think about it cause as you have US flags this question will be asked to every muslim in USA and specially pakistani diasporra and you know what im talking about have a nice day


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## Yaduveer

*California killing: Female assailant was from Pakistan, CAIR claims*
REUTERS — UPDATED 30 MINUTES AGO




Police officers conduct a manhunt after a mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. -Reuters
SAN BERNARDINO: The female assailant gunned down following the shooting rampage in a banquet at a social services centre for the disabled in San Bernardino, California, was of Pakistani origin, claimed Hussam Ayloush, executive director of the Los Angeles chapter of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations).

The couple were married for two years and have a six-month-old baby girl, claimed Ayloush.

On Wednesday morning, Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and Tashfeen Malik, 27, dropped off their six-month-old baby with Farook's mother, saying they were going to a doctor's appointment.

_Read: Suspects Syed Farook, Tashfeen Malik kill 14 in California shooting: authorities_

By noon, according to police, the couple had donned assault clothing, armed themselves with rifles and stormed a holiday party attended by San Bernardino County employees, killing 14 people and wounding 17 others.






Police officers conduct a manhunt after a mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. -Reuters


Before sunset, after a shootout with police, they were both dead, leaving a grieving community with few clues to puzzle out the motive for the carnage.

Syed Farook, born in the United States, worked as an environmental health specialist for San Bernardino County, inspecting restaurants for health violations, according to authorities and a website that tracks public employees.

As part of his job, he also inspected public pools at locations including apartment and senior housing complexes and country clubs. Records show him performing these duties as recently as July.

On Wednesday, he attended the annual holiday gathering for employees of his department, but then left, returning later with weaponry and Malik.

San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said that the shooting spree had clearly been planned in advance and that the suspects left several explosive devices, which appeared to be pipe bombs, at the scene of the massacre.






A California Highway Patrol officer stands with his weapon as authorities pursued the suspects in a shooting that occurred at the Inland Regional Center. -AFP


SueAnn Chapman, a cashier and waitress at China Doll Fast Food, a restaurant that Syed Farook inspected earlier this year for his job with the county, said he didn't seem unusual when he turned up.

“He was real quiet,” Chapman said. “He checked the food and said he was here because somebody complained. He looked completely normal.” Burguan said he did not know whether Farook and Malik were wed, but officials with the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) who had been in touch with the family said they were husband and wife.




In this image taken from video, armored vehicles surround an SUV following a shootout in San Bernardino. -AP

Burguan said that police investigating the shooting went to a house in Redlands on Wednesday afternoon, and saw the couple take off in a black SUV. Police pursued the car to San Bernardino, where the gun battle ensued that left Farook and Malik dead.

Farook's family was originally from South Asia, while Malik was believed to be from Pakistan and had lived in Saudi Arabia before coming to the United States, Ayloush said. Farook had an older brother, he added, who had served in the U.S. military.

Public records suggest possible turbulence in Farook's younger life.

In 2006, Rafia Farook, who records indicate is Farook's mother, filed in a Riverside court for divorce from her husband, also named Syed Farook.






SWAT officers enter an area where suspects were believed to be after the shooting at the Inland Regional Center. -AFP


She enumerated multiple instances of domestic abuse in the legal filing, and said her husband “threatens to kill himself on a daily basis.” During one incident, she said in a court filing, her son came between them “to save me.”

California killing: Female assailant was from Pakistan, CAIR claims - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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## mpk1988

batmannow said:


> Who made them radicalized ,for fighting western wars ?
> Muslims & their countries ?
> Or west it self ?



Great.. Keep blaming the west. The ideology stems not from the west. The west supported it when they wanted to use some countries and manpower against Communism. That's long gone. Wake up!!!

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## Zarvan

pak-marine said:


> Here u go molvi comes and like his old routine brings west , draculas , mqm , ifs & buts these and those .... bla , bla , bla & bla
> 
> Stop being an appologist for radical fundos .. Its a lost cause those who have paid the price do know this kind .. Its the mad ideology where lies the evil and if its not crushed with brute force than the world will continue witnessing such atrocities


Really go ahead Good Luck with solving it with brutal force. You have no idea about the issue and How to resolve it so you take the easy way and call me terrorist apologist. Next time come up with something new.


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## mpk1988

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> Before condemning? Right after the names were declared, almost everyone started bashing Muslims for it. We do condemn it. Those radicalized minded have hurt Muslims and Islam the most. What you expect from Muslims? Who is the creator of it? Shouldn't we all stand against it? Why only Muslims? Ok if a single person is involved then it's fine? How many times white men have shoot people in theaters.



Sure they did.. Starting with this is not islam. Guess, what? Every religion is fallible and change starts with accepting that there is a problem. 
Then you have the posters asking who started what? Yes.. Disabled children went and messed up already messed countries. 
What do you mean by only muslims? Where are the de-radicalization programmes? Where is the un-ending oil money for preaching tolerance, liberal values and co-existence. For telling people that humans are the same?

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## Moonlight

GURU DUTT said:


> i really admire your noble virtues lady but my point is if muslims are really against such people what have muslims done to control such people ?
> 
> its onli one part in condemming "terrorists who are bringing bad name to islam& muslims" but its totally diffrent when you start control them and stop them before or alert athurities about there "evil"designs....... think about it cause as you have US flags this question will be asked to every muslim in USA and specially pakistani diasporra and you know what im talking about have a nice day



What you want us to do? We are suffering the most. First step is to stop arming or funding. And guess what? I'm not the one who's funding them. Are we too scared to tell USA and UK or (even if Saudi is also involved) to tell them stop it. Stop helping them to grow in large number. Why we are blamed for it? Aren't we citizens of USA and equal to everyone else. That's what the constitution says.

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## pak-marine

Zarvan said:


> Really go ahead Good Luck with solving it with brutal force. You have no idea about the issue and How to resolve it so you take the easy way and call me terrorist apologist. Next time come up with something new.



Let me specific again brutal force shall be applied to remove this cancerous ideology from mankind.

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## I S I

Not official.


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## Yaduveer

more sources 
Female suspect of California shooting was Pakistani: CAIR - The Express Tribune


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## Zarvan

pak-marine said:


> Let me specific again brutal force shall be applied to remove this cancerous ideology from mankind.


I repeat " GOOD Luck with that "



GURU DUTT said:


> i really admire your noble virtues lady but my point is if muslims are really against such people what have muslims done to control such people ?
> 
> its onli one part in condemming "terrorists who are bringing bad name to islam& muslims" but its totally diffrent when you start control them and stop them before or alert athurities about there "evil"designs....... think about it cause as you have US flags this question will be asked to every muslim in USA and specially pakistani diasporra and you know what im talking about have a nice day


Sorry but many times people around them have no clue not a single one.


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## mpk1988

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> What you want us to do? We are suffering the most. First step is to stop arming or funding. And guess what? I'm not the one who's funding them. Are we too scared to tell USA and UK or (even if Saudi is also involved) to tell them stop it. Stop helping them to grow in large number. Why we are blamed for it? Aren't we citizens of USA and equal to everyone else. That's what the constitution says.



I told you. De-readicalization centers. Confront radicals online and in the community. Help in the integration of people with normal people. Keeping your head down and working always works. 
Not more mosques while telling people that they interpreted it the wrong way. More religion will never work. 

You earlier talked about people getting radicalized because western countries funded wars against them. Let me tell you something my people. Indians.. Treated like crap in Saudi and other places. Almost like slave and bonded labour.. They also actively funded radicalism in our country and helped Pakistan. Guess what?? They kept their head down and worked for their families back home. No-one went and bombed all of the middle-east.


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## ito

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> I wish religion was the part of their life. The real religion, not the ISIS's kinda religion. They preach to kill people and Islam preaches to spread love and peace. Killing one person is like killing the humanity. That is the real Islam.



To the world...this dichotomy is confusing. Non Muslims don't to know whom to believe. We would like to believe you, but the terrorists are making it hard for us to believe you.


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## Ankit Kumar

Peacefuls with bigger hearts everywhere .


On the topic, prayers for the people gunned down by cowards.

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## In arduis fidelis

And here i was feeling left out of all the drama going on around the world as a Pakistani.


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## Moonlight

ito said:


> To the world...this dichotomy is confusing. Non Muslims don't to know whom to believe. We would like to believe you, but the terrorists are making it hard for us to believe you.



Who should we blame? Isn't it getting harder for us to live? Where should we go? We are getting killed and getting bashed.

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## Taygibay

@GURU DUTT

How 'bout this :
Muslims are spread over many countries ( not the case as much with Hindis for instance ).
The average GDP per person is not even from one to another but lower than for say West.
A little less basics, a little less education, a little less health care but also on average …
a lot less democracy!
When you say that Muslims haven't done enough, you should remember that the average
Muslim in kingdoms has no say in pressuring opinion one way or another.
Pakistan is much closer to a standard republic from a westerner's point of view. KSA, not
so much! And kings can be benign or wise ( Jordan & Morocco ). Iran due to the presence
of the Revolutionary Council is an hybrid. In other places, the military plays the stabilizing role
that carries or secures the Fihq's protection. But I'm not sure all Bahrainis feel listened to??

In most discussions about Islam as the body of believers, people arguing forget the relative
helplessness of the average Muslim versus that of the vote yielding citizen in EU or USA.
As such any call made without adjusting for comparison is flawed IMHoO.
The voice of Muslims as individual is lesser internationally, it's a fact!

By the way, Christians as main inhabitants of Western Civ. couldn't vote in a unified block
either if required to do so. An anti-evolution Born Again type in the deep South has little in
common with a Swiss Lutherian, a French Catholic or an Orthodox, be him Greek or Russian!

Read you later, Tay.

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## RazorMC

Harisudan said:


> I do accept that Islam preaches peace.. But why does all sorts of nonsenses in all over the world happens in the name of Islam..? Is it that complicated a religion to understand for common man, that nobles could lure him to idiocy and make him die for the ideology.?


Massacre of Muslims in Myanmar at the hands of Buddhist terrorists...

Muslims and Christians dying at the hands of Hindu terrorists in India...

Bearded men (hipsters mostly) getting attacked in USA by Christian terrorists...

Where is Islam in this?



Yaduveer said:


> ISI may not be controlling them.
> 
> But this Farookhi was of Pakistani origin.


Samjhota Express terrorists were also Pakistani origin?

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## xyxmt

ito said:


> 99% of terror attacks since 9/11 happened because of religion.



which ideology killed Indra Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi?

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## jhungary

RIP to the victim...

The attack does not look like a terrorist attack, it does look prepared, judging from the weapon and equipment being use and the knowledge of the party.

What we know so far

2 Attacker shot dead by the police. One Syed Farook*, *and One Teshfeen Malik
14 dead, 17 injured
Attack had been carried out with Assault Rifle and Handgun, unknown if Title II firearms was involved.
One Syed R. Farook was employed by the San Bernardino county health department, the location of the attacks

The attacks is no doubt a planned attacks, but I doubt the attacker were terrorist related. At lease not with suicidal intention. The attacker wore mask (Ski mask) to conceal their identity and were seen dress up in combat fatigue (Would be interpreted as a disguise). Plus the attacker tried to get away instead of stay and cause maximum damage, all does not spell terrorist attacks.

The attacks, however, is pre-planned, from the execution of the attack to the high casualty rate and the reasonable connection between the shooter and the attacks. Suggested a pre-planed attack

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## posedion

pak-marine said:


> Hope the world understand that no matter how many terrorist u kill if this mad ideology is not removed unfortunately we will continue witnessing this mad evil blood shed by those blinded by this stupidity..



Wat ideology does Hafiz Saeed follow is it not the same wahabi salafi shit



monitor said:


> Relagion was not involve in this attack. A ex employee named sayed faruq carried out the attack for personal reason. A Muslim man attack doesnot make every Muslim or islam as crazy ideology.



How holy is the Saudi shit philosophy of wahabi and salafi version


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## sankar

Now pakistani's will be more on radar in US eyes.


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## ArsalanKhan21

_Syed Rizwan Farook, 28 traveled to Saudi Arabia and returned with a wife, Tashfeen Malik, 27, later growing a beard both heavily armed dressed for battle as if they were on a mission._

What kind of name is Tashfeen ? Spelling mistake ? Is it Tahseen ?



Lonely Hermit said:


> Mumbai city has 18% muslim population and close 40 muslims were also slaughtered during the attack apart from 15 different nationalities by Pakistan sponsored terrorist.



That was staged by RAW. The whole incident does not make sense since what will Pakistan gain from attack in Mumbai or on Indian parliament. The only country that gained from those incidents were India that staged those incidents.


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## SMC

People are jumping the gun too much here. It's likely religion wasn't a motive here but personal grievances with co workers.

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## SMC

sankar said:


> Now pakistani's will be more on radar in US eyes.



Given almost all mass shootings are carried out by white Americans, is that particular group going to be under the under as well?


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## KAL-EL

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> What you want us to do? We are suffering the most. First step is to stop arming or funding. And guess what? I'm not the one who's funding them. Are we too scared to tell USA and UK or (even if Saudi is also involved) to tell them stop it. Stop helping them to grow in large number. Why we are blamed for it? Aren't we citizens of USA and equal to everyone else. That's what the constitution says.




An absolutely beautiful and on point post.

as a legal US citizen, you are absolutely equal to any other US citizen under the constitution of the United States. No matter what your ethnic origins are. Amen!!!

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## saiyan0321

Very sad incident... Shooting disabled innocent children takes it to a whole new level. Wonder what form.of madness was going in his head. I mean how can you kill like this. It doesn't look to be a terrorist attack and it seems Isis , despite the cheer, have denied any hand in this.... 

What form of mad man and what form disagreement leads to this? Both husband and wife decided to create a massacre in a disabled center for children....


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## Lonely Hermit

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> That was staged by RAW. The whole incident does not make sense since what will Pakistan gain from attack in Mumbai or on Indian parliament. The only country that gained from those incidents were India that staged those incidents.


You mean to say RAW killed 180 people and held India financial capital on siege for 3 days just to do malign the name of Pakistan. As though Pakistan reputation wasn't already down the drain.


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## mpk1988

RazorMC said:


> Massacre of Muslims in Myanmar at the hands of Buddhist terrorists...
> 
> Muslims and Christians dying at the hands of Hindu terrorists in India...
> 
> Bearded men (hipsters mostly) getting attacked in USA by Christian terrorists...
> 
> Where is Islam in this?
> 
> 
> Samjhota Express terrorists were also Pakistani origin?



You expect no backlash? 

Also, pray do tell the number of Muslims and Christians that died at the hands of Hindu terrorists the last year in India and the number of deaths due to islamic extremists.


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## Aurangzeb29

GURU DUTT said:


> ask them the treatment they started getting for finding jobs or house on rent or there social life in US after the shehzad episode dont be naive you know what im talking about



Yeah but dont think it will be any easier if your Indian or Bangali or any other South Asian, most Americans cant tell the difference between different ethnicities. A indian (heck even Sikhs have been targeted) can just as easily get caught up in a hate crime as a Pakistani or Arab or other ethnicity. The people who do these things do not use the rational part of their brain.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Pakistan Army also supported Talibans that were also anti-Islamic as that attacked civilian targets. The Talibans also gave refuge to Al Qaeeda that committed terrorists events. Even now rogue elements in Pakistan Army and ISI support these militants. All the innocent Muslims who have nothing to do with these militants and their sponsors will suffer. The uniformed people sitting in protected Rawalpindi don't realize unintended consequences of their short sighted decisions. It only took Peshawar incident to force them to react. Even now Saudi sponsored militants are operating in Pakistan but security agencies are waiting for another incident to take any action.


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## Moonlight

KAL-EL said:


> An absolutely beautiful and on point post.
> 
> as a legal US citizen, you are absolutely equal to any other US citizen under the constitution of the United States. No matter what your ethnic origins are. Amen!!!



Unfortunately some people can't get this into their mind. And some even tell Muslims to leave "our" country. Which makes me laugh. This is my country as well.

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## VCheng

Maler said:


> Just one question out of curiosity, does people killed by practitioners of "only correct path" and your "peaceful religion" will also go to 'jannah'??



It doesn't matter. Let us send them to the Pearly Gates and let God decide.


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## Neutron

No one can destroy Islam or Muslims, Hindus , Christians or any other religion. Co existence or no existence is the only option. Humans are surviving after world wars, nuclear conflicts, natural disasters and genocides of the generation. It is one of the most resilient species ever known to the Universe. 
People will continue killing and blaming each other. Totally a useless debate.

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## JonAsad

'Devout' Muslim US citizen and his Saudi wife who were 'living the American Dream' identified as heavily-armed duo who burst into his office holiday party and slaughtered 14 after leaving their baby with his mother | Daily Mail Online


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## Rajkumar

SMC said:


> People are jumping the gun too much here. It's likely religion wasn't a motive here but personal grievances with co workers.



I feel the same. Religion has nothing to do in this case i believe. 
People are just jumping over nothing and drawing wrong conclusions. I don't see any motive or objective to achieve by religious fundamentals in this incident.


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## Moonlight

Neutron said:


> No one can destroy Islam or Muslims, Hindus , Christians or any other religion. Co existence or no existence is the only option. Humans are surviving after world wars, nuclear conflicts, natural disasters and genocides of the generation. It is the most resilient species ever known to the Universe.
> People will continue killing and blaming each other. Totally a useless debate.



But none of the other religion is blamed of any wrongdoing. Remember planned parenthood incident? Everyone got unite and say don't call him Christine terrorist. Everyone agreed. Then that hypocrisy to call all the Muslims terrorists.


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## Harisudan

RazorMC said:


> Massacre of Muslims in Myanmar at the hands of Buddhist terrorists...
> 
> Muslims and Christians dying at the hands of Hindu terrorists in India...
> 
> Bearded men (hipsters mostly) getting attacked in USA by Christian terrorists...
> 
> Where is Islam in this?
> 
> 
> Samjhota Express terrorists were also Pakistani origin?



things you have quoted may or may not have happened, but no Christian or No Hindu is strip searched in Airports, just because of being a Christian or a Hindu.. Then why this world does it to Muslims only?? Isn't it awkward, that the whole world will just like that, consider a particular religion dangerous.. My question was to not let this happen to Islam, since Islam is a religion of peace.. Atleast that is what I'm being taught in my country.. can u answer me??


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## monitor

posedion said:


> Wat ideology does Hafiz Saeed follow is it not the same wahabi salafi shit
> 
> 
> 
> How holy is the Saudi shit philosophy of wahabi and salafi version


wahabi philosophy is hundred years old and this so called islamic terrorism started only 10~20 years ago . alqaeda or isis neither represent majority of Muslim nor Wahhabi


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## posedion

monitor said:


> wahabi philosophy is hundred years old and this so called islamic terrorism started only 10~20 years ago . alqaeda or isis neither represent majority of Muslim nor Wahhabi



were you living a cave or did you come to earth yesterday, the economic growth of the saud and the Wahabi rise are reason of terror and It all started in 1970 itself......

yes I know lot of decent muslims who are just dont like the salafi shit but they are not the one in power


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## herono1

San Bernandino Shooting: Pakistani-origin couple had left multiple explosives at various sites | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis


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## Yaduveer

Both suspects were Pakistani.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672413929818181632


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## Azad-Kashmiri

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The shooting at hospitals or doctor's office normally happens due to 30,000 to 40,000 dollar hospital bills they charge to patients for 4-7 days hospitalization literally bankrupting a middle class person if they ever have serious medical need
> 
> Some of the private hospitals have "Electrical doors" and guards that confirm why you want to enter Hospital , and you are only allowed in after they confirm you have a patient registered in the hospital



I found the story about anti-abortion shooting

Right-Wing Media Try to Distract From Abortion Clinic Shooting | Terry Krepel



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Now watch his family and friends claim that he was a good guy and they had no idea he was bonkers. They all will lie.



Does it include families of:

Right-Wing Media Try to Distract From Abortion Clinic Shooting | Terry Krepel


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## Yaduveer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672392143735013376


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672392143735013376



That is a fatal combination in many ways.


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## Azad-Kashmiri

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> 14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose



Why have you changed the thread title? And what has this got to do with Islam? And why are you calling them ''Islamic'' terrorists?


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## jung41

Its only Muslim from one country are trouble some


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## SHAMK9

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> And why are you calling them ''Islamic'' terrorists?


They killed in the name of islam, making them islamic terrorists aka thekedars of islam

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## monitor

posedion said:


> were you living a cave or did you come to earth yesterday, the economic growth of the saud and the Wahabi rise are reason of terror and It all started in 1970 itself......
> 
> yes I know lot of decent muslims who are just dont like the salafi shit but they are not the one in power



are you mixing Palestinian freedom movement with alqaeda ?


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## Azad-Kashmiri

SHAMK9 said:


> They killed in the name of islam, making them islamic terrorists aka thekedars of islam



No the story is about an angry in a party. There is no mention of his nationality and Islam.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Why have you changed the thread title? And what has this got to do with Islam? And why are you calling them ''Islamic'' terrorists?



Mods changed the title of the thread and moved it to American Forum. We have some Qadianis that want to malign Islam. May be new orders from Rabwah or London. I changed the title back.

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## Tipu7

The moment media realised that suspects were Muslims, all heading changed from Shooters to Terrorist...... keep going yellow journalism .........

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## SHAMK9

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> No the story is about an angry in a party. There is no mention of his nationality and Islam.


Devout muslims/trips to Saudi Arabia, go figure

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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> That is a fatal combination in many ways.



America is still confused whether it was a terrorist attack .


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## posedion

monitor said:


> are you mixing Palestinian freedom movement with alqaeda ?



My dear friend no ideology happens just like out of thin air, the seeds of poison financing the ideology creating so called holy warriors all started in the 70s itself many actors are in play here the....


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## Azad-Kashmiri

SHAMK9 said:


> Devout muslims/trips to Saudi Arabia, go figure



What go on haj! Are you Muslim?


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> America is still confused whether it was a terrorist attack .



There is no confusion. We should wait for the investigation to be completed. All will be made clear soon enough.

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## Yaduveer

herono1 said:


> The terrorists are muslims of Pakistani origins. Bomb making facility found in their house.



Source ..?

If they are from Pakistan,There would be backlash.

It will be bad for Pakistani and Indians too bcz they look similar.


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## herono1

Yaduveer said:


> Source ..?
> 
> If they are from Pakistan,There would be backlash.
> 
> It will be bad for Pakistani and Indians too bcz they look similar.


Everywhere on internet. Guy is Pakistani. Married a Saudi girl.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> There is no confusion. We should wait for the investigation to be completed. All will be made clear soon enough.



Some of the Mods on this forum that called me Afghani just because I opposed the ISI support for Talibans have disappeared. The Mods changed to title of this thread to "Islamic terrorism" from the newspaper headline that I quoted. Then I had to change the headline it back. It seems clear to me that these Mods that called me Afghani are Qadianis themselves. This is another event for them to malign Islam. Why they did not change the headline to Pakistani terrorism since both were apparently Pakistanis. May be they followed the instructions from Rabwa.

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## Solomon2

Yaduveer said:


> America is still confused whether it was a terrorist attack .


Our president likes the phrase, "workplace violence."


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## Yaduveer

herono1 said:


> Everywhere on internet. Guy is Pakistani. Married a Saudi girl.



That is not Saudi Girl , she was originally from Pakistan and stayed is Saudi for sometime.

Her name was Tashfeen Malik. Are Malik Jaats ? atleast in India they are .


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## batmannow

Malik Alashter said:


> Fresh news all suspects are dead.


Isn't that strange !


----------



## herono1

Yaduveer said:


> That is not Saudi Girl , she was originally from Pakistan and stayed is Saudi for sometime.
> 
> Her name was Tashfeen Malik. Are Malik Jaats ? atleast in India they are .


OK. Then both Pakistanis.


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## Solomon2

SHAMK9 said:


> They killed in the name of islam, making them islamic terrorists aka thekedars of islam


Just because the suspects were Muslims of Pakistani origin or descent, why does that make them "Islamic terrorists"? Maybe they just hated mentally-challenged people.

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## herono1

batmannow said:


> Isn't that strange !


What strange. You want police to risk their life to capture them alive.


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## Solomon2

Also, since the assailants were masked, how do we know that the suspects killed committed the crime? Maybe lots of trigger-happy Pakistani-descent/origin Americans travel in SUVs toting assault rifles!

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## herono1

Solomon2 said:


> Just because the suspects were Muslims of Pakistani origin or descent, why does that make them "Islamic terrorists"? Maybe they just hated mentally-challenged people.


No. The auditorium was for mentally challenged. But people having party inside were not mentally challenged. They were colleagues of killers. Police found pipe bomb making facility inside their home.


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## Solomon2

herono1 said:


> What strange. You want police to risk their life to capture them alive.


The suspects apparently chose to die in battle with police rather than submit to arrest - that suggests they would have been more value to law enforcement alive than dead, yes?


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## herono1

Solomon2 said:


> Also, since the assailants were masked, how do we know that the suspects killed committed the crime? Maybe lots of trigger-happy Pakistani-descent/origin Americans travel in SUVs toting assault rifles!


Police found pipe bomb making facility in their house. So obviously they are terrorists.


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## Solomon2

herono1 said:


> Police found pipe bomb making facility in their house. So obviously they are terrorists.


Maybe they were inventing a new and creative way to dispose of baby diapers?


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## herono1

Solomon2 said:


> The suspects apparently chose to die in battle with police rather than submit to arrest - that suggests they would have been more value to law enforcement alive than dead, yes?


American police are smart enough to investigate further without terrorists being alive.



Solomon2 said:


> Maybe they were inventing a new and creative way to dispose of baby diapers?


Pipe bombs were also found at crime site.


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## Solomon2

_...According to the Los Angeles Times, San Bernardino County public records reveal a person named Syed R. Farook was employed by the health department as an environmental health specialist. Staff members from that department had reportedly gathered Wednesday for a party where the shooting incident took place. It was not clear if the employee was the same man as the suspect linked to the shooting -_

I'd say "workplace violence" except the participation of the spouse is most unusual.



herono1 said:


> American police are smart enough to investigate further without terrorists being alive.
> Pipe bombs were also found at crime site.


Please. This is a serious matter, yes. I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. Obviously a defense attorney would have a difficult time had the suspects remained alive.


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## Azad-Kashmiri

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Some of the Mods on this forum that called be Afghani just because I opposed the ISI support for Talibans have disappeared. The Mods changed to title of this thread to "Islamic terrorism" from the newspaper headline that I quoted. Then I had to change the headline it back. It seems clear to be these Mods that called me Afghanis are Qadianis themselves. Another event for them to malign Islam. Why not Pakistani terrorism since both were apparently Pakistanis.



Extremely valid point. There is nothing Islamic about murdering innocent people. As for the qadiyanies, you are not the first to say PDF is run by them. They have hatred for Islam and Pakistan.

I don't understand they live in Christendom and they too will be affected by their own propaganda. Stupid people!

Mere bhai jaan come back to the land of the pure, to home and leave them to Tramp. He will take care of them.

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## Hyperion

LMFAO........ I'm all for killing the rabid 'islamists' type and decapitating brainwashed wahabo's....... however, this particular ammo of full gear assault by baklava-clad hubby and wifey and unbelievable bomb making facility at the their home, reeks of false flag op....... some bad karma is about to flow Pakistan's way, whether Pakistani's like it or not..... love the American population and their 'general' gullibility!


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## herono1

Solomon2 said:


> I'd say "workplace violence" except the participation of the spouse is most unusual.
> 
> Please. This is a serious matter, yes. I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. Obviously a defense attorney would have a difficult time had the suspects remained alive.


You don't have a dispute with work colleague, then go home & make pipe bombs immediately. This was a premeditated attacked. Maybe triggered early by some dispute.


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## A.M.

herono1 said:


> The terrorists are muslims of Pakistani origins. Bomb making facility found in their house.


Nice try to further your bias and agenda.

Farook is born and raised in US (Illinois). We don't even know if he's ever visited Pakistan himself where his parents are from.

He found the wife via an online service and apparently traveled to Saudi Arabia to meet / marry her.

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## herono1

Hyperion said:


> LMFAO........ I'm all for killing the rabid 'islamists' type and decapitating brainwashed wahabo's....... however, this particular ammo of full gear assault by baklava-clad hubby and wifey and unbelievable bomb making facility at the their home, reeks of false flag op....... some bad karma is about to flow Pakistan's way, whether Pakistani's like it or not..... love the American population and their 'general' gullibility!


Everything that goes against Pakistanis is false flag.



A.M. said:


> Nice try to further your bias and agenda.
> 
> Farook is born and raised in US (Illinois). We don't even know if he's ever visited Pakistan himself where his parents are from.
> 
> He found the wife via an online service and apparently traveled to Saudi Arabia to meet / marry her.


But he is of Pakistani origin. That is confirmed.


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## Solomon2

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Extremely valid point. There is nothing Islamic about murdering innocent people...I don't understand they live in Christendom and they too will be affected by their own propaganda. Stupid people!


I call it the Muslim Principle of Relativity. 

Just as Einstein realized that the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment - that the speed of light was invariant - required time to be a variable instead, so have militant Muslims realized that the great extent of their crimes requires varying the meanings of words or lying about the facts to maintain the assertion that aggressive Muslims are always right in a dispute with non-aggressive Muslims and non-Muslims.


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## A.M.

herono1 said:


> But he is of Pakistani origin. That is confirmed.



What does Pakistan have to do with someone who wasn't born there or never visited the country?


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## Hyperion

No more bullshit from you. The suspect was born and raised in the US, met wife in Saudia. No connection to Pakistan up till now. Anymore R&AW's free fund disinformation campaign and you are out.



herono1 said:


> The terrorists are muslims of Pakistani origins. Bomb making facility found in their house.

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## herono1

A.M. said:


> What does Pakistan have to do with someone who wasn't born there or never visited the country?


It will have impact on Pakistan. Donald Trump will use this to improve his ratings & even become President.


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## Solomon2

Hyperion said:


> ...The suspect was born and raised in the US -


Both husband and wife are suspects. The Council on American-Islamic Relations claims the wife was Pakistani. And the police aren't sure they've caught all the suspects yet.


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## rockstar08

Hyperion said:


> No more bullshit from you. The suspect was born and raised in the US, met wife in Saudia. No connection to Pakistan up till now. Anymore R&AW's free fund disinformation campaign and you are out.



sir aaj itne gusse mai kyun hai ? Sab thek thak hai na ?


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## VCheng

Solomon2 said:


> Both husband and wife are suspects. The Council on American-Islamic Relations claims the wife was Pakistani. And the police aren't sure they've caught all the suspects yet.



It would be prudent to wait for the investigation to complete.


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## Hyperion

Exactly!



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It would be prudent to wait for the investigation to complete.


----------



## Yaduveer

Hyperion said:


> No more bullshit from you. The suspect was born and raised in the US, met wife in Saudia. No connection to Pakistan up till now. Anymore R&AW's free fund disinformation campaign and you are out.



This can help you to get away from delusions.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672392062055145474

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672392143735013376

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## herono1

Hyperion said:


> No more bullshit from you. The suspect was born and raised in the US, met wife in Saudia. No connection to Pakistan up till now. Anymore R&AW's free fund disinformation campaign and you are out.


Wife was born in Pakistan.


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## Yaduveer

more California killing: Female assailant was from Pakistan, CAIR claims - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## Solomon2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It would be prudent to wait for the investigation to complete.


Absolutely.

In the meantime we mourn and bury our dead and consider our options.


----------



## Green Angel

Will USA conduct Joint airstrikes in US against these rebels as they are doing in Syria.

Will surely bring peace to the world,EU should join the coalition.

or they were just an innocent mentally disable Muddere.....


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Innocent people have been murdered and idiots on here are too worried about where they're from. If they're Pakistani, Saudi, so what?

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## RazorMC

Harisudan said:


> things you have quoted may or may not have happened, but no Christian or No Hindu is strip searched in Airports, just because of being a Christian or a Hindu.. Then why this world does it to Muslims only?? Isn't it awkward, that the whole world will just like that, consider a particular religion dangerous.. My question was to not let this happen to Islam, since Islam is a religion of peace.. Atleast that is what I'm being taught in my country.. can u answer me??


Things I stated are not in the "_maybe_" category. It would be delusional to think that they are.

A lot of people are strip searched at US airports, even non-Muslims. And if we are using American standards of things, then Indians are a smelly bunch of brown rats, Pakistanis are terrorists, Arabs are still living in tents and the French are always nude with unshaved arm-pits.

Islam promotes peace and inter-faith harmony, that much is true. But no Muslim should be held accountable for what ISIS does. Doing otherwise is just outright bigotry.

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## VCheng

Solomon2 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> In the meantime we mourn and bury our dead and consider our options.



Yes, this is the time to grieve for those who were lost, and to sympathize with the families and friends. Then we complete the investigation, and figure out what to do next. We have many options and all of them need to be considered to figure out the best solutions. And it shall be done.

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## RazorMC

mpk1988 said:


> You expect no backlash?
> 
> Also, pray do tell the number of Muslims and Christians that died at the hands of Hindu terrorists the last year in India and the number of deaths due to islamic extremists.


Backlash for Muslims in Myanmar just for _being alive_?
Backlash for a Muslim man who was wrongly accused of consuming beef?
Backlash for what exactly?

The US brought war into Iraq for NO reason. Shouldn't it expect backlash?

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## Yaduveer

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Innocent people have been murdered and idiots on here are too worried about where they're from. If they're Pakistani, Saudi, so what?



Do not fudge the facts. They were not saudi though they have travelled to saudi arabia.

Guy was of Pakistani origin and Girl was Pakistani.


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## anon45

damn, may have been totally wrong, read on reddit live updates that they had gopro's on them... could be propagands terrorism,

Here is a hypothetical scenario i've copied from elsewhere, credit goes to citanon.



citanon said:


> These two have been planning an attack for a long time. Preparing explosives, training (both used Ar-15s), getting equipment. Knowing that there was an annual Christmas gathering for the office, they decide this was the right time to attack. The two drop off the baby at the grandparents (according to ABC News) in the morning, making the excuse that they are going for a doctor's appointment. Then the guy goes in to case the joint. Once he's satisfied, he makes a scene to leave early. Goes back to the wife, put on the gear, goes back shooting.
> 
> The police responded in 4 minutes. So they shot for maybe 3 and then got the hell out of there. They figured they'd go back to their place in Redlands to lay low, re-equip and plan the next move. What they didn't realize was that some of the co-workers recognized the guy despite his wearing a mask and others remembered him leaving. Police show up to follow the lead, they get into a chase and end up dead. Had the police not gotten lucky with the lead, they might be doing the 2nd attack right now.
> 
> Seems to me it was a combination of really good luck and excellent police work that stopped them from probably carrying out further attacks.

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Yaduveer said:


> Do not fudge the facts. They were not saudi though they have travelled to saudi arabia.
> 
> Guy was of Pakistani origin and Girl was Pakistani.



OK! They're ALL Pakistani...AND??? So what? 14 people have been murdered and that is important.


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## Yaduveer

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> OK! They're ALL Pakistani...AND??? So what? 14 people have been murdered and that is important.



Yes ! that is the case.

14 people have been murdered and murdered by a Pakistani American couple.

and Motive is not yet clear.


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## Maler

The wife Tashfeen Malik is a Pakistani citizen!!!


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## Yaduveer

Maler said:


> The wife Tashfeen Malik is a Pakistani citizen!!!



I think she was .

may have renounced her original citizenship after marrying pakistani american guy ?


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## Trisonics

*Unconfirmed *reports say both were wearing GoPro cameras during the act. If true, this is beyond sick!


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Yaduveer said:


> Yes ! that is the case.
> 
> 14 people have been murdered and murdered by a Pakistani American couple.
> 
> and Motive is not yet clear.



You really a pathetic Indian. So what if they are!!!

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## Yaduveer

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> You really a pathetic Indian. So what if they are!!!



Keep your abuse with yourself.

I am just clarifying their pakistani origin which was reported by your pakistani media.

I am not alleging anything on anybody. so keep your calm.

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## Solomon2

Trisonics said:


> *Unconfirmed *reports say both were wearing GoPro cameras during the act. If true, this is beyond sick!


Terrorists for sure.


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## Yaduveer

Trisonics said:


> *Unconfirmed *reports say both were wearing GoPro cameras during the act. If true, this is beyond sick!



what would they do with Gopro camera ?

upload on internet ?


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Yaduveer said:


> Keep your abuse with yourself.
> 
> I am just clarifying their pakistani origin which was reported by your pakistani media.
> 
> I am not alleging anything on anybody. so keep your calm.



I'm totally calm. I can't understand with you people why the murder 14 people is not important. Last time gang rape was overlooked by sms divorce.

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## Great Sachin

It is extremely rare for a mass shooting in America to have multiple perpetrators — and even more so for one of them to be a woman.

At a news conference Wednesday, San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan identified the suspects killed in the shootout with police as Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and Tashfeen Malik, 27.

Hussam Ayloush, executive director of the Council for American-Islamic Relations in Los Angeles, told The Washington Post that Farook and Malik had been married for two years and left their 6-month-old child with Farook’s mother that morning.

The couple told the grandmother that they had a doctor’s appointment and needed her to take care of the child, Ayloush said, adding that she had been concerned Farook and his wife might be among the victims of the shooting when neither of them answered their phones. Authorities identified Farook and Malik as the gun-wielding attackers who killed 14 people and wounded 17 others before dying hours later in a shootout with police.

“I have no idea why he would do something like this,” Farhan Khan, who is married to Farook’s sister, said at a news conference held by CAIR late Wednesday night.

The police chief said that while authorities are still searching for a motive, “we have not ruled out terrorism.”

Farook was a San Bernardino County employee who had worked for five years as an environmental health specialist in the public health department, which was hosting the holiday party where the shooting occurred Wednesday. According to state employee records, Farook’s total compensation in 2013, including salary and benefits, was $71,230.

Farook was born in the United States, Burguan confirmed. Malik was born in Pakistan and spent time in Saudi Arabia before marrying Farook, said Ayloush, the Muslim community leader.

Farook was born in Illinois after his parents immigrated to the United States from Pakistan, Ayloush told The Post.

The California couple join a long roster of convicted and alleged mass shooters from recent years. But in contrast to those who have committed such acts of violence in the past, Farook and Malik do not appear so far to have left a digital trail that could point to their motives.


Christopher Harper-Mercer, the 26-year-old who fatally shot nine people and then killed himself at a community college in Oregon in October, left behind social media profiles that indicated an affinity with Nazism, anti-religious views and a desire to “lash out at society.”

Charleston, S.C., church shooting suspect Dylann Roof posted Facebook photos of himself wearing emblems of white supremacist movements, and owned a website containing a lengthy manifesto against racial minorities.

But where Farook and Malik are concerned, the traces of them that can be found on the Internet are benign: a baby registry that appeared to be in Malik’s name, and an undated online dating profile that appeared to be Farook’s, in which, among other things, he stated an interest in target shooting.

The registry page cites a May due date in Riverside, which corresponds with reports that the couple’s child is 6 months old and the fact that they were discovered by police outside a residence less than half an hour away from Riverside.

Malik’s requests are few: diapers, baby wash, swabs and convertible car seat.

The dating profile, posted to a site “for people with disabilities and second marriage,” includes a description that matches what is known of Farook so far.

The profile’s “About Him” section introduces someone who works for the county as a “health, safety and envorimental [sic] inspector.” It further states that he is from a religious but modern family of four, lives with his parents and enjoys working on cars as well as “just hang out in back yard doing target pratice [sic] with younger sister and friends.”

In interviews with the Los Angeles Times, Farook’s co-workers in the public health department said he was “quiet and polite, with no obvious grudges.”

“He never struck me as a fanatic, he never struck me as suspicious,” Griselda Reisinger said.

Fellow inspectors Patrick Baccari and Christian Nwadike said the “tall, thin young man with a full beard” rarely started conversations, but he was well-liked and spent a lot of time in the field.


They said Farook recently traveled to Saudi Arabia, coming back with a wife he had met online. He was a devout Muslim but didn’t discuss religion at work.

Reports show that Farook inspected public pools and eating establishments. His job required him to check the cleanliness of food surfaces and cooling methods, analyze chlorine levels and test kitchen equipment.

Wednesday’s mass shooting was the deadliest in the United States since 2012, when a lone gunman killed 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newton, Conn.

According to CNN, of the 28 deadliest shootings in U.S. history before Wednesday, “only two have come at the hands of multiple shooters: the February 1983 killings at the Wah Mee gambling and social club in Seattle and the Columbine High School massacre in Littleton, Colorado, in 1999.”

An FBI report released last year said there were 160 “active shooter” incidents in the United States between 2000 and 2013. Among those, all but two involved a single shooter, the report states.

The exceptions, according to the FBI:

• On April 6, 2012, Jacob Carl England, 19, and Alvin Lee Watts, 32, each armed with a handgun, drove through the streets of Tulsa, Okla., firing their weapons, killing three people and wounding two others, according to the report.

• On Aug. 27, 2011, Tyrone Miller, 22, and an additional unidentified shooter(s), armed with handguns, allegedly began shooting at a house party in Queens, N.Y., according to the report. Miller was arrested two years later in North Carolina, but the unidentified suspect(s) remains at large.

The FBI’s definition excludes the D.C.-area sniper shootings, which began Oct. 2, 2002, when John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo began shooting Washington-area residents — a string of attacks that left 10 dead and three seriously wounded.

According to the FBI report: “Active shooter is a term used by law enforcement to describe a situation in which a shooting is in progress and an aspect of the crime may affect the protocols used in responding to and reacting at the scene of the incident. Unlike a defined crime, such as a murder or mass killing, the active aspect inherently implies that both law enforcement personnel and citizens have the potential to affect the outcome of the event based upon their responses.”


The agency’s report did not include active-shooter incidents from 1999, the year two students at Columbine High School killed 12 students and a teacher before turning their guns on themselves.

And one of the San Bernardino attackers was a woman, which makes the incident even more unusual: Among the 160 active-shooter incidents logged by the FBI, only six of the shooters were female, the report states.

Attacks involving multiple shooters are significantly less common because they usually require a shared ideology, according to Jeffrey Simon, a visiting lecturer in the UCLA Department of Political Science and the author of “Lone Wolf Terrorism: Understanding the Growing Threat.”

It requires more plotting when multiple individuals are involved, which heightens the chance of being intercepted by law enforcement, Simon said Wednesday.

David Hemenway, professor of Health Policy at Harvard, told The Post that many active-shooter incidents are driven by suicidal individuals who want “to go out in a blaze of glory.”

Wednesday’s incident, Heneyman said, was “very unusual.”

“If you have a buddy, you’re probably less inclined to commit suicide and destroy your life, unless you have a cause,” he said. “Columbine was pretty unusual. That was like Leopold and Loeb. Most of the time people who do this are just loners.”

“This one seems very different, like an act of terrorism or something,” he added.

Burguan, the police chief, said Farook was at Wednesday’s holiday party but left “under circumstances described as angry or something of that nature.” Nevertheless, signs pointed to the attack being premeditated: The shooters were wearing tactical gear, black masks and carrying multiple weapons.

“They came prepared to do what they did as if they were on a mission,” Burguan said. “Based upon what we have seen and how they were equipped, there had to be some degree of planning that went into this. I don’t think they grabbed the guns and tactical gear on a spur-of-the-moment thing.”

The striking difference between the San Bernardino suspects and other mass shooters - The Washington Post


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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> what do you think



If there is any Pakistani or person/s of Pakistan origin involved in this disgusting evil act, I will remove my Pakistan flag.

Stupid, irrational and evil.

_Caveat: If this was a Islamist terrorist attack and not your typical American gone nuts case. If it is the latter, then tabulate with Columbine High etc._


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## Yaduveer

Atanz said:


> If there is any Pakistani or person/s of Pakistan origin involved in this disgusting evil act, I will remove my Pakistan flag.
> 
> Stupid, irrational and evil.



Men are crazy and some are crazier.

But this was not expected from a woman who is a mother herself. 

Woman brings life and Wife brings sanity to crazies.

I dont know what was wrong with her.


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## Solomon2

Atanz said:


> If there is any Pakistani or person/s of Pakistan origin involved in this disgusting evil act, I will remove my Pakistan flag.


If you're living in Pakistan you may have to keep it. The obvious immediate response will be to restrict travel from Pakistan, just as was done for various Arab countries after 9/11.


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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> If there is any Pakistani or person/s of Pakistan origin involved in this disgusting evil act, I will remove my Pakistan flag.
> 
> Stupid, irrational and evil.
> 
> _Caveat: If this was a Islamist terrorist attack and not your typical American gone nuts case. If it is the latter, then tabulate with Columbine High etc._



Let us wait for the investigation to complete to discuss it further.



Yaduveer said:


> Men are crazy and some are crazier.
> 
> But this was not expected from a woman who is a mother herself.
> 
> Woman brings life and Wife brings sanity to crazies.
> 
> I dont know what was wrong with her.



Have you forgotten Aafia Siddiqui? There are many more like her, some even on PDF, quite possibly.

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## illusion8

Yaduveer said:


> Men are crazy and some are crazier.
> 
> But this was not expected from a woman who is a mother herself.
> 
> Woman brings life and Wife brings sanity to crazies.
> 
> I dont know what was wrong with her.



I salute the religion that turns a mother of a 6 month kid into a crazy fanatic.

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## Hyperion

Seems like they were extremely well trained ISIS operatives.



anon45 said:


> damn, may have been totally wrong, read on reddit live updates that they had gopro's on them... could be propagands terrorism,
> 
> Here is a hypothetical scenario i've copied from elsewhere, credit goes to citanon.


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## Indus Pakistan

Solomon2 said:


> living in Pakistan



Well I am British with origins in Pakistan. My dad was prudent, he left in 1964 and settled in UK. I fly the flag in respect to my roots and also to get traction amongst the general mass in hope I might infuse some sanity.

My people are great in many ways with a history to match the best but presently thanks to *jihadi Islam* I fear they have lost the plot.

It is like seeing something you love go rabid.

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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Have you forgotten Aafia Siddiqui? There are many more like her, some even on PDF, quite possibly.



Many in Pakistan say that Aafia Siddiqui was illegaly detained by USA for her microbiology researchs.


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> Many in Pakistan say that Aafia Siddiqui was illegaly detained by USA for her microbiology researchs.



Many in Pakistan are crazily delusional.



Atanz said:


> It is like seeing something you love go rabid.



Love something no matter how much, when something goes rabid, it is either put down, or it takes you with it.


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## Husnainshah

This is getting serious. The Western Governments must take an initiative with regards to Muslim population in The West. I assure ya, in countries like The U.S, it won't be long before the people take it in their own hands and with 80 Million gun owners, ya don't wanna take any risks. I think it should be clear by now that Islam and West don't go hand in hand and before it gets too late and some 'Lone Wolf' enters a Mosque with a Minigun(Don't let the name fool ya), do something.
Start by deporting some of the extremists who refuse to assimilate. Deport anyone wearing an Abaya, Hijab, Shalwar Kameez and pretty much anything religious. The 'proud' Muslims(Read Hypocrites of the highest order) wouldn't adopt the local values but have no problem living off the benefits of infidels, living on the land of infidels under their laws, work under infidels. DEPORT 'EM AND DEPORT 'EM NOW!

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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Many in Pakistan are crazily delusional.



If this turns to have Pakistan link I think we need to introspect and resolve as to what are the causes. We need to address them.

And I feel the weight falls on us the liberals. The ball lies in our hand to push back this tidal wave of darkness that has engulfed our country of origin. We have duty to the coming generations.


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## HRK

Great Sachin said:


> *Farook was born in the United States*, Burguan confirmed. Malik was born in Pakistan and spent time in Saudi Arabia before marrying Farook, said Ayloush, the Muslim community leader.



thread Title ....


> *Pak-origin couple kill 14 in California carnage*




Title of the Original Article in WP .....


Great Sachin said:


> The striking difference between the San Bernardino suspects and other mass shooters - The Washington Post



plz anyone who have enough sensibility can make it understandable for me why there is a twist in thread thread title its content & the original source.....

@Oscar , @waz .... plz make it understandable for me ....

regards,

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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Many in Pakistan are crazily delusional.



Does some still carry this delusion even if they move to USA ? and even after generations ?

What is the reason for this delusion ? because Guy was 2nd generation American and has government job so money or modern education should not be reason , Is it anything else?

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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> If this turns to have Pakistan link I think we need to introspect and resolve as to what are the causes. We need to address them.
> 
> And I feel the weight falls on us the liberals. The ball lies in our hand to push back this tidal wave of darkness that has engulfed our country of origin. We have duty to the coming generations.



This case will become a great case study and will be analyzed minutely, I am sure. All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light of even one small candle of truth.



Yaduveer said:


> Does some still carry this delusion even if they move to USA ? and even after generations ?
> 
> What is the reason for this delusion ? because Guy was 2nd generation American and has government job so money or modern education should not be reason , Is it anything else?



We need to wait for the investigation to complete first.



Husnainshah said:


> This is getting serious. The Western Governments must take an initiative with regards to Muslim population in The West. I assure ya, in countries like The U.S, it won't be long before the people take it in their own hands and with 80 Million gun owners, ya don't wanna take any risks. I think it should be clear by now that Islam and West don't go hand in hand and before it gets too late and some 'Lone Wolf' enters a Mosque with a Minigun(Don't let the name fool ya), do something.
> Start by deporting some of the extremists who refuse to assimilate. Deport anyone wearing an Abaya, Hijab, Shalwar Kameez and pretty much anything religious. The 'proud' Muslims(Read Hypocrites of the highest order) wouldn't adopt the local values but have no problem living off the benefits of infidels, living on the land of infidels under their laws, work under infidels. DEPORT 'EM AND DEPORT 'EM NOW!



Absolutely not. USA does not work this way and will never betray its ideals over an incident like this.


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## Bang Galore

*Tashfeen Malik: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know*
*Published* 1:16 am EST, December 3, 2015 *Updated* 11:20 am EST, December 3, 2015





A California Highway Patrol officer stands with his weapon as authorities pursued the suspects. (Getty)

Tashfeen Malik was killed by police along with her husband Syed Farook after the Inland Regional Center shooting in San Bernardino, California, on December 2. She was 27 years old. Malik is thought to be a native of Pakistan. Syed Farook was a U.S. citizen whose parents are from Pakistan. His brother-in-law Farhan Khan said at a press conference that he believed Farook had been born in the U.S.

The two suspects were killed in a hail of police gunfire on a residential street in San Bernardino just a few hours after they allegedly opened fire at a Christmas party in the town. The party was being thrown for the county health department, where Syed Farook had been employed. In total, 14 people innocent people were killed at the party with another 17 injured. Cops tracked them to a home in Redlands, some 15 minutes from San Bernardino, and then pursued them in a high-speed chase when they tried to escape.

Here’s what we know so far:

*1. Farook Had Recently Traveled to Saudi Arabia & Came Back With a Wife*
SB police : Syed Farook was at work and attended holiday party & left early. He was employee of SB county pic.twitter.com/NtqE2WuY3w

— Tara Wallis (@tarawallis) December 3, 2015

Police said at a press conference on the night of December 2 that they are unsure if Farook and Malik were married or just engaged. However an earlier report from the Los Angeles Times said that Farook had married in the past six months. The Times said Farook had recently traveled to Saudi Arabia and came back to the U.S. with a wife that he had met online.





Farook shown in a screengrab via ABC News.

A co-worker of Farook’s told ABC News that the shooter had described Malik as a pharmacist.

*2. They Leave Behind a 6-Month-Old Child*
The couple had a baby who is six months old. That child was in the care of family at the time of the attack and remains there. The Los Angeles Times reports that Malik left her baby with the child’s grandmother on the morning of the shooting. They told the grandmother that the couple had a doctor’s appointment. That same grandmother filed for divorce in 2006 from Farook’s father citing domestic abuse. Her home became the center of a police search on December 3, reports CBS Los Angeles.

That’s according to the Council of American Islamic Relation executive director Hussam Ayloush who spoke at a press conference in the aftermath of the shooting. An online baby registry for Malik shows the baby was due on May 17, 2015, in Riverside, California. The New York Post reports that Farook’s co-workers had thrown the couple a baby shower earlier this year, these were the same co-workers he would slaughter on December 2.

Ayloush also said that it was “impossible to track down a specific mosque” that the couple attended. Ayloush also attested that Farook’s family thought he was going to be among the victims of the Inland Regional Center shooting.

You can watch the full press conference, featuring comments from Farook’s brother-in-law, above.

*3. On an Online Dating Profile, Farook Said He Was Looking for a Girl Who Was a ‘Good Muslim’*




The back of the couple’s home in Redlands, California, the day after the shooting. (Screengrab via KTLA)

An ABC News report mentioned Farook’s online dating habits. From profile read that he was part of a “religios [sic] but modern family of 4 and that his hobbies included “doing target practice with younger sister and friends.” Another profile said that he was trying “to live as a good Muslim. Looking for a girl who has the same outlook, wear hijab, but live life to the fullest.”

He had set up the profile on iMilap, a dating site that describes itself as “a site for people with disabilities and second marriage.”

*4. All 4 of the Guns That Farook & Malik Had Were Legally Purchased*
Audio: Police dispatches from shootout with #SanBernardino mass shooting suspects – Mass Shooting in California Leaves 14 Dead, 17 Wounded Grasswire | Your Newsroom pic.twitter.com/wjyS3BsZl2

— Grasswire (@Grasswire) December 3, 2015

All of the guns recovered from the car that Farook and Malik were killed in had been bought legally. They were registered to someone who was connected to the shooting, reports CNN. The network also says that that the rifles used in the attack at the center were “AR-15s or similar style weapons.” That report also talked about Farook and Malik being dressed in “assault-style clothing.” The New York Times reports that police recovered assault rifles and “two semiautomatic handguns” from the couple’s car.

Having moved away from earlier statements, police in San Bernardino now believe that there were only two shooters, not three.

The San Bernardino police chief Jarrod Burguan told the media that “There had to be some sort of planning that went into this.” Burguan continued “I don’t think they just ran home, put on these types of tactical clothes, grabbed guns and came back on a spur of the moment.” The chief spoke regarding the report that Farook had been at a holiday party and gotten into an argument with someone. Only to return a few hours later to open fire.

Burguan later explained that officers had been “working on” what they believed were explosive devices which had been left at the Inland Regional Center.

*5. Terrorism Has Not Been Ruled Out as a Motive by the FBI*
Officials said they do not know what the motive for the shooting is so far.

After initially saying there were no indications of terrorism, the FBI said Wednesday night that they have not ruled out a connection to terrorism. The FBI spokesman would not give an more specifics.

“I am not willing to go down that road just yet,” said David Bowdich, the head of the FBI’s Los Angeles office, at a press conference. “We will go where the evidence takes us.”


Tashfeen Malik: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

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## Solomon2

Atanz said:


> ...My people are great in many ways with a history to match the best but presently thanks to *jihadi Islam* I fear they have lost the plot. It is like seeing something you love go rabid.


Yes, very like 1971. Currently it's jihadi Islam, before that it was anti-East Pakistani or anti-Indian....it's a kind of complex, people behaving "great" - except towards the object their leaders have cultivated in them to dump their hate and violence upon. Jews have seen this throughout the millennia, since so often we have been the target of choice for various tyrants and crooks.

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## mpk1988

RazorMC said:


> Backlash for Muslims in Myanmar just for _being alive_?
> Backlash for a Muslim man who was wrongly accused of consuming beef?
> Backlash for what exactly?
> 
> The US brought war into Iraq for NO reason. Shouldn't it expect backlash?



Backlash for the rise of islamic extremism in the said countries. However, in no way do I justify those jungle retards. They should be burnt at stake too.

Also, you conveniently forget about the statistic I asked. Over all the hullaballoo of intolerance and Dadri lynching, more Hindus were murdered by islamic extremists during the last 2 months or so in separate incidents. Now, why wouldn't the common man be pushed towards right wing tendencies? Bet, you didn't hear about that. That's because religious terrorism in the present is almost exclusively islamic. It has been for quite some time. All the nonsense you hear about Hindu terrorism (bought up by sickular Hindus itself.. what an irony), and guess what.. only Samjhauta and rioting that has been commonplace in India ever since the 1800's.

Now let's talk about islamic terrorism..

My birthplace : Kerala, India.. Nothing against Muslims from my knowledge of history.. In-fact one of the earliest mosques and churches in the world over there. People welcomed them from time immemorial. The arabs inter-married there and were free to spread their faith. That was the starting of islam in the subcontinent. Much before it came via mohammed bin qasim to Pakistan. Now, they constitue more than 1/4th of the population there. Over this period, there have been multiple raids by people like Tipu etc that lead to complete slaughter of my people.. Thousands upon thousands died and converted. Thousands converted by money (something even movies have highlighted earlier in the 70s -80s.. n this is not bollywood. It's intellectually sound and renowned cinema). North of my state has quasi sharia zones. No go zones for me. Hindus slaughtered even now in isolated cases. Check for marad masacre Marad massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
We can't raise the statue of the father of our language: Ezhuthachan in our state.. because.. it's apparently against islam and it's lobby in the state.. A blot on society: Pukasa - KERALA - The Hindu
The lobby now controls businesses, rules over the education sector and I can go on for ages.

*Now you ask me why the Backlash???*

I spent my childhood in Saudi.. I can't even begin to start talking about life as a kid there. The first question you are asked there:
hal ant muslim ???
Forget the Saudis.. My own people.. Indians.. in school.. Muslim??
Muslim?? Muslim?? apparently answering no gives you a look that makes you feel like an alien. Less we talk about the rules, the better..
Khobar tower bombing??? I was there.. in Thoqbah, 9th mecca street, feeling the earth shake under me.
So let's stop pretending islamic terrorism grew out of the war on Taliban in Afghanistan (justified) or on Iraq.

Finally, Europe now.. but wait.. I can't go to places because these radical f**** a**** are a threat everywhere... in Belgium.. Belgium has gone and bombed countless islamic countries everywhere.. Wait.. No they haven't!!!

Again..
*Now you ask me why the Backlash???*

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## Indus Pakistan

Yaduveer said:


> Is it anything else?



My off the shelf answer would be. Lack of identity creating vacuam that has been filled in by Islam. Thus the rootless individuel starts identitfying on just one aspect of his heritage. This makes feretile ground for pan Islamic causes and with Wahabism being peddled very effectively by Saudi Arabia you get the finished robotic product.

The blame for this lies squarely on the Pakistani state which has made deliberate effort to erase the identity of Pakistani people. It has been most effective in erasing the Punjabi idenitity followed by Pashtoon identity. The Mohajir's always fell on religion as a identifier. Why else would have have moved huge distances to a strange land? That was nartural.

What is not natural is how the state deleted Punjabi, Pashtun and to a degree even Sindhi identity replacing it with a manufactured Islamic identity without any roots. This is apparent even on this forum. In fact do a survey. Asked who you are every other nation will reply - Turk, Iranian, Afghan, Jordanian but Pakistani's will say "Muslim".

As I always say drive through a Pakistani neighbourhood in UK with 50,000 people and you will struggle to see the "P" word. That is indicative of a deep identity issue, a malaise that Islam has filled but the Islam they picked up was infected with jihadism and anti West narrative.

This leads to predicatable results.

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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> We need to wait for the investigation to complete first.



Take thwarted times square bombing case .

The guy who was Planning to do it was hailed from a well to do family.

I am not blaming Islam anyway. I firmly believe core values of Islam were scientific and even ahead of its time..Someday I would study Kuran and Bible.

but I have a theory for these killings.


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## mpk1988

Atanz said:


> My off the shelf answer would be. Lack of identity creating vacuam that has been filled in by Islam. Thus the rootless individuel starts identitfying on just one aspect of his heritage. This makes feretile ground for pan Islamic causes and with Wahabism being peddled very effectively by Saudi Arabia you get the finished robotic product.
> 
> The blame for this lies squarely on the Pakistani state which has made deliberate effort to erase the identity of Pakistani people. It has been most effective in erasing the Punjabi idenitity followed by Pashtoon identity. The Mohajir's always fell on religion as a identifier. Why else would have have moved huge distances to a strange land? That was nartural.
> 
> What is not natural is how the state deleted Punjabi, Pashtun and to a degree even Sindhi identity replacing it with a manufactured Islamic identity without any roots. This is apparent even on this forum. In fact do a survey. Asked who you are every other nation will reply - Turk, Iranian, Afghan, Jordanian but Pakistani's will say "Muslim".
> 
> As I always say drive through a Pakistani neighbourhood in UK with 50,000 people and you will struggle to see the "P" word. That is indicative of a deep identity issue, a malaise that Islam has filled but the Islam they picked up was infected with jihadism and anti West narrative.
> 
> This leads to predicatable results.



Very astute observation.


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> Take thwarted times square bombing case .
> 
> The guy who was Planning to do it was hailed from a well to do family.
> 
> I am not blaming Islam anyway. I firmly believe core values of Islam were scientific and even ahead of its time..Someday I would study Kuran and Bible.
> 
> but I have a theory for these killings.



Let's hear your theory, but only if you can accept the risks of doing so.


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## Indus Pakistan

Solomon2 said:


> Yes, very like 1971. Currently it's jihadi Islam



No, I am sorry I disagree with you there. Those were secular issues and rooted in nationalism. Pakistan has moved away from nationalism to* Pan Islamism*. I don't have time now but I think we need to look into this issue more. I for certain have some ideas and intend to do something about this within the UK British-Pakistan population.

Time to do then just talk. You more than welcome to the discussion when I get the time.

*Pan Islamism actually is just fraud for "Pan Arabism" so that these lost fools can fight for Arabist causes whilst they get treated like vermin in Arab countries.

_Anyway before I go RIP to all the victims._

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## CHD

The west came in search of WMD which were never there and for one man and in return destroyed 5 countries, killed lets say 10,000 terrorists and 700,000 civilians and created another million armed individuals who seek to revenge those dead civilians plus some terrorists.While terroists go to Europe and USA and instead of going after the people inolved in war crimes they go and slaughter civilians.So no one in this game is innocent and no one can call the other terrorist because both of them are.

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## Falcon29

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> View attachment 276634
> 
> 
> Gotta share this one. :p



What do we have to do with ISIS? ISIS is just another entity fighting over Syria in the same way Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, US, EU are. They are duking it out for control it's not our business.


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## Indus Pakistan

Bang Galore said:


> Good Muslim’



*Bingo*. Here we go. I might end up losing my Pakistani flag.

_Ps. What he actually meant was "looking for *bad* Muslim" girl._


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## Husnainshah

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Absolutely not. USA does not work this way and will never betray its ideals over an incident like this.



Would you rather the Muslims be in internment camps like Japanese following Pearl Harbor or individuals spraying Mosques with bullets in Texas?


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## VCheng

Husnainshah said:


> Would you rather the Muslims be in internment camps like Japanese following Pearl Harbor or individuals spraying Mosques with bullets in Texas?



That will not happen either.


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## Falcon29

herono1 said:


> You don't have a dispute with work colleague, then go home & make pipe bombs immediately. This was a premeditated attacked. Maybe triggered early by some dispute.



You don't have to be terrorist to make bombs idiot. In the Norway massacre the first attack was explosive filled car bomb.



Husnainshah said:


> Would you rather the Muslims be in internment camps like Japanese following Pearl Harbor or individuals spraying Mosques with bullets in Texas?



Neither will happen, believe it or not nobody cares about the incident. Besides politically orientated people which are minority. If we expected such thing to happen don't worry, we'll inform you here. It's not even close.


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## Solomon2

Atanz said:


> No, I am sorry I disagree with you there. Those were secular issues and rooted in nationalism. Pakistan has moved away from nationalism to* Pan Islamism*. I don't have time now but I think we need to look into this issue more.


That's not really disagreeing with me, you know.


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## Moonlight

Falcon29 said:


> What do we have to do with ISIS? ISIS is just another entity fighting over Syria in the same way Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, US, EU are. They are duking it out for control it's not our business.



Yes tell this to the rest of the world.


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## thesameguy

punit said:


> ISIS says the same. go argue with them.


Hitler and Nazis had a Hindu insignia, swastika. 
That makes all Hindus Nazis, right?


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## Jaanbaz

Guynextdoor2 said:


> SICK B@$TARDS.
> 
> Fully expect the gun control lobby to strike back. I loved a John Oliver segment on this.



I was going to post this, John Oliver is a very smart and witty man. 


On Topic: RIP to all victims. Was this religiously motivated or work related? Or maybe even both?

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## Husnainshah

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> That will not happen either.





Falcon29 said:


> Neither will happen, believe it or not nobody cares about the incident. Besides politically orientated people which are minority. If we expected such thing to happen don't worry, we'll inform you here. It's not even close.



Sitting in the U.S, perhaps you guys know more than I do. Events like following tell a different story altogether though:

Armed Protesters Plan Another Demonstration at Texas Mosque


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## VCheng

Husnainshah said:


> Sitting in the U.S, perhaps you guys know more than I do. Events like following tell a different story altogether though:
> 
> Armed Protesters Plan Another Demonstration at Texas Mosque



So what? Everybody has the right to assemble and to free speech. Such demonstrations are part and parcel of life here.


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## Falcon29

Ammara Chaudhry said:


> Yes tell this to the rest of the world.



You don't need to tell them anything, don't let little kids on the internet scare you. They want to make sure you have no cause/agenda. All the stuff happening overseas is in order to make sure Muslims there aren't organized, united and don't *think for their selves.* We used to be a large nation that was innovative and would make decisions for itself. Nowadays we are being attacked to make sure Muslims never have a civilization again and remain in an apologetic state to scare us from capitalizing on our potential. It's just like anything else in life, nothing comes easy and is competitive.


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## Falcon29

Husnainshah said:


> Sitting in the U.S, perhaps you guys know more than I do. Events like following tell a different story altogether though:
> 
> Armed Protesters Plan Another Demonstration at Texas Mosque



These are minor incidents and are childish. There is no danger from small demonstrations like this consisting of dropouts/harley bike riders. If there was concrete threat of violence then authorities will deal with it. If violence occurs security is present to deal with it.


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## Husnainshah

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> So what?


They were not armed with flowers, ya know.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Everybody has the right to assemble and to free speech


With guns in their hands?



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Such demonstrations are part and parcel of life here


Good. Have ya had the chance to participate in one lately?


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## Koovie

I have an idea, lets arm more people... might solve the problem.


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## VCheng

Husnainshah said:


> They were not armed with flowers, ya know.
> 
> 
> With guns in their hands?
> 
> 
> Good. Have ya had the chance to participate in one lately?



What is wrong with any of that?


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## F-22Raptor

CNN reports that Farook had been radicalized and had been in touch with more than one international terrorism suspects by phone and social media.


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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let's hear your theory, but only if you can accept the risks of doing so.



Muslims in general had seen their Pinnacle of Power somewhere in medieval times for e.g. Ottoman,Mughals,Arabs etc.From 11th to 16th century ,they were global powers if not superpower and west were in dark ages.However after enlightenment and industrial revolution,West has dominated the world since then.

Now Muslims as a society are in confused state and every one has his theory of what went wrong.Some says we have to follow modernism like Christian did and some are saying we have strictly follow religious books to acheive lost glory. ISIS and Talibans are the highest manifestation of latter thinking.ISIS is just a medieval Muslim group transported into 21st century.

Muslims need to see why they were global power in more rational way. In 10th century, Kuran has some radical ideas for its time e.g. Equality for all,monotheism,widow remarriage etc. In addition to philosophical base , Arabs had assimilated all the knowledge which was existed in that time of world.There was nothing called western knowledge.Knowledge was just knowledge.Islam became religion of masses and of oppressed.

Similar thing was done by West from 16th centuary.They created new radical philosophies like Darwinism,free will and protestantism(enlightenment) and acquired knowledge by themselves or otherwise.These ideas were more radical than what was enshrined in Kuran.

Communism was even more radical than western Capitalism, that is why it has challenged later for a half a century but has its flaws.

Thanks.

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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> Muslims in general had seen their Pinnacle of Power somewhere in medieval times for e.g. Ottoman,Mughals,Arabs etc.From 11th to 16th century ,they were global powers if not superpower and west were in dark ages.However after enlightenment and industrial revolution,West has dominated the world since then.
> 
> Now Muslims as a society are in confused state and every one has his theory of what went wrong.Some says we have to follow modernism like Christian did and some are saying we have strictly follow religious books to acheive lost glory. ISIS and Talibans are the highest manifestation of latter thinking.ISIS is just a medieval Muslim group transported into 21st century.
> 
> Muslims need to see why they were global power in more rational way. In 10th century, Kuran has some radical ideas for its time e.g. Equality for all,monotheism,widow remarriage etc. In addition to philosophical base , Arabs had assimilated all the knowledge which was existed in that time of world.There was nothing called western knowledge.Knowledge was just knowledge.Islam became religion of masses and of oppressed.
> 
> Similar thing was done by West .They created new radical philosophies like Darwinism,free will and protestantism(enlightenment) and acquired knowledge by themselves or otherwise.These ideas were more radical than what was enshrined in Kuran.
> 
> Communism was even more radical than western Capitalism, that is why it has challenged later for a half a century but has its flaws.
> 
> Thanks.



There is _nothing _preventing the Muslims from following the same path to success except their own ignorance and bigotry. Their present condition is no one else's fault but their own.

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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> There is _nothing _preventing the Muslims from following the same path to success except their own ignorance and bigotry. Their present condition is no one else's fault but their own.



I think that petroleum oil is a curse on Muslims.That oil has made Saudi and Irani rich.

Other Muslims are following them.Even Saudi and Irani gives money to follow them.

So Muslims has bad role models. For mining , all you need is a dozen skilled or semi skilled labourers but to make a jet engine you need whole society.

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## Trisonics

Over *12 pipe bombs, 8000 rounds* of ammo found in couple's home


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## RabzonKhan

*Terrorism is 'possible' in San Bernardino shootings, Obama says*

President Barack Obama says it's possible the mass shooting in California was related to terrorism, but that authorities still don't know. He says it's possible it was workplace-related or that there were mixed motives. (Dec. 3) AP



Yaduveer said:


> Many in Pakistan say that Aafia Siddiqui was illegaly detained by USA for her microbiology researchs.


Watch the video you will get your answer:

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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> I think that petroleum oil is a curse on Muslims.That oil has made Saudi and Irani rich.
> 
> Other Muslims are following them.Even Saudi and Irani gives money to follow them.
> 
> So Muslims has bad role models. For mining , all you need is a dozen skilled or semi skilled labourers but to make a jet engine you need whole society.



The real curse on the Muslims is ignorance, nothing else.


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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The real curse on the Muslims is ignorance, nothing else.



Why ignorance and ignorance from what ?


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> Why ignorance and ignorance from what ?



Ignorance is the lack of knowledge that cripples present-day Muslims in everything from religion to science, and just about everything in between. We just like to pretend we know everything when in fact we know next to nothing.


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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Ignorance is the lack of knowledge that cripples present-day Muslims in everything from religion to science, and just about everything in between. We just like to pretend we know everything when in fact we know next to nothing.



I agree .

I was asking what is the reason for this strange behavior ?


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> I agree .
> 
> I was asking what is the reason for this strange behavior ?



This is not strange behavior, it is quite _natural _to dream about good days when the reality has been rendered too unpalatable by one's own foolishness, while blaming everyone else.

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## Taygibay

@Neutron and all men, women or heck other of good will, especially since Advent has begun :





Hi-res format link : Coexist live together - (#49010) - High Quality and Resolution Wallpapers on wallbaseHQ.net

and this carry along version with the explanation for slow buddies :






And good day all, Tay.


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## Indus Pakistan

Yaduveer said:


> that petroleum oil



Your on the ball there. Drugs in society are bad, bad in many less than apparent ways. We all know about the bad effects on indiviuels taking them. However there is another wider damage done to society. 

Drugs means money. Lots of money. This money ends up in hands of thw wrong sort of people. With the illgotten gains the gangsters flaunt, cars, women, designer clothes and the dazzle catches the eye of all the youngsters in these neighbourhood. The drug gangsters become models that all rest aspire to. The effect of this is pernicious on society because being doctor, accountant or getting a education is not the ideal. Breaking the law becomes acceptable and cool.

In similar way but on far larger scale the effects of oil in the hands of the most conservative and backward Muslims, that is of the Arabia peninisula ensured that they would get to define Islam over large population of the Muslim world in particular those Muslim's with weak sense of identity. Pakistani's being prime case.


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## nForce

Atanz said:


> Your on the ball there. Drugs in society are bad, bad in many less than apparent ways. We all know about the bad effects on indiviuels taking them. However there is another wider damage done to society.
> 
> Drugs means money. Lots of money. This money ends up in hands of thw wrong sort of people. With the illgotten gains the gangsters flaunt, cars, women, designer clothes and the dazzle catches the eye of all the youngsters in these neighbourhood. The drug gangsters become models that all rest aspire to. The effect of this is pernicious on society because being doctor, accountant or getting a education is not the ideal. Breaking the law becomes acceptable and cool.
> 
> In similar way but on far larger scale the effects of oil in the hands of the most conservative and backward Muslims, that is of the Arabia peninisula ensured that they would get to define Islam over large population of the Muslim world in particular those Muslim's with weak sense of identity. Pakistani's being prime case.



lot of societies/cultures/religions/sects have mention of drug use in their rituals, in very intricate detail.


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## punit

thesameguy said:


> Hitler and Nazis had a Hindu insignia, swastika.
> That makes all Hindus Nazis, right?


WELL i am not responsible for ur mental development or lack of it !


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## Maler

Main points came out from investigation till now:

Denver to Host 2016 RedState Gathering...click here for more information and to Register Today
« BACK | PRINT
*RS*
*FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR*
*BREAKING Developments in the San Bernardino Shooting*
By: Leon H. Wolf (Diary) | December 3rd, 2015 at 01:24 PM | 5

RESIZE: AAA


Share on Facebook _6_
 
6 SHARES






The San Bernardino PD (represented by Chief Jarrod Burguan) FBI (David Bowdich) and County Sheriff’s just held a joint press conference that included a number of breaking developments that will change the way this story develops. Stated briefly, here is new and relevant information that the police have thus far uncovered:



Per the FBI, Farook had indeed traveled abroad, and returned to the United States in July 2014. They do not know all the countries he visited, but they know at least Pakistan was on the list of visited countries, as well as Saudi Arabia. They have evidence that Farook was radicalized at some point and had been involved with known overseas terrorists.
Farook was an American citizen, and his wife was here legally on a valid K1 (fiancee) visa.
They suspected Farook based on a tip they received from one of his coworkers who reported erratic behavior at the holiday party at work. They found out that Farook had rented a black SUV that matched the description of the one owned by the shooters. Following that lead led them to Farook.
A search of Farook’s house found extensive explosive materials (including materials for 12 pipe bombs), thousands of rounds of ammunition of various types, and evidence of extensive planning.
All four of the guns involved in the shooting were legally purchased – the two handguns were purchased by Farook, but the two rifles were not purchased by Farook. They haven’t disclosed who the purchaser was or what the connection to Farook might have been.
The police initially held a third suspect on suspicion that they were involved in the shooting of the SB police officer during the standoff; however, they determined that individual was not involved in the shooting and discharged them after booking them on a misdemeanor warrant.
They are still investigating the existence of other possible co-conspirators.
They cannot confirm that the attackers used GoPro cameras, or any other cameras, as has been previously reported.
They have been in contact with some of Farook’s family members, who have been cooperative and participated in interviews


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## TruthSeeker

The problem with being so "politically correct" about "profiling" Muslims is that too many deeply religious Muslims harbor a desire for violent "defense" of their religion and their Prophet. The fact is that deeply religious Muslims are the most likely subgroup in Western societies to act out their anger by killing defenseless non-Muslim people nearby to them. The fact is that Islam carries within its holy book, and within the recounted stories about its Prophet, justifications for this violent behavior. Profiling of Muslims as potential terrorists is simply a normal, human self-defense mechanism.

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## Dushmann

Earlier I had read that Pakistani Americans are from different social class and well educated, integrated, law abiding unlike those in UK (drug peddling, child grooming Mirpuri types in UK).

But now I doubt that claim.

And just yesterday some Pakistani American here on PDF was talking about starting some Muslim neighbourhood watch group in his locality.


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Yaduveer said:


> But this was not expected from a woman who is a mother herself.



Typical Indian taking enjoyment in the sad story. As your so concerned about the welfare of women, why were people from your country cheering when a Indian wife of an alleged ISI operative said she'll give her child away? 

So spare us your fake sympathies for POLICTICAL motives. I've read your posts, Pakistan this, Pakistan that and she didn't renounce her nationality, blah, blah as if we give a damn about her.

She is a typical INDIAN wife who stands by her INDIAN husband even when he's doing wrong!


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## Yaduveer

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Typical Indian taking enjoyment in the sad story. As your so concerned about the welfare of women, why were people from your country cheering when a Indian wife of an alleged ISI operative said she'll give her child away?
> 
> So spare us your fake sympathies for POLICTICAL motives. I've read your posts, Pakistan this, Pakistan that and she didn't renounce her nationality, blah, blah as if we give a damn about her.
> 
> She is a typical INDIAN wife who stands by her INDIAN husband even when he's doing wrong!



Yeah continue.


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## Azad-Kashmiri

TruthSeeker said:


> The problem with being so "politically correct" about "profiling" Muslims is that too many deeply religious Muslims harbor a desire for violent "defense" of their religion and their Prophet. The fact is that deeply religious Muslims are the most likely subgroup in Western societies to act out their anger by killing defenseless non-Muslim people nearby to them. The fact is that Islam carries within its holy book, and within the recounted stories about its Prophet, justifications for this violent behavior. Profiling of Muslims as potential terrorists is simply a normal, human self-defense mechanism.



Sounds like you're quoting the Zionist-Talmud. Having read comments on here it was about a Christmas party disagreement and he went home angry and told his wife. I guess it was something about avenging her honor and she came back to take care of her honor as well.

No indication of religion or anything else. If he was a devout person he wouldn't have done this murderous act.



illusion8 said:


> I salute the religion that turns a mother of a 6 month kid into a crazy fanatic.



She is a typical INDIAN wife who stands by her INDIAN husband even when he's doing wrong! Why were people from your country cheering when a Indian wife of an alleged ISI operative said she'll give her child away?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Atanz said:


> My off the shelf answer would be. Lack of identity creating vacuam that has been filled in by Islam. Thus the rootless individuel starts identitfying on just one aspect of his heritage. This makes feretile ground for pan Islamic causes and with Wahabism being peddled very effectively by Saudi Arabia you get the finished robotic product.
> 
> The blame for this lies squarely on the Pakistani state which has made deliberate effort to erase the identity of Pakistani people. It has been most effective in erasing the Punjabi idenitity followed by Pashtoon identity. The Mohajir's always fell on religion as a identifier. Why else would have have moved huge distances to a strange land? That was nartural.
> 
> What is not natural is how the state deleted Punjabi, Pashtun and to a degree even Sindhi identity replacing it with a manufactured Islamic identity without any roots. This is apparent even on this forum. In fact do a survey. Asked who you are every other nation will reply - Turk, Iranian, Afghan, Jordanian but Pakistani's will say "Muslim".
> 
> As I always say drive through a Pakistani neighbourhood in UK with 50,000 people and you will struggle to see the "P" word. That is indicative of a deep identity issue, a malaise that Islam has filled but the Islam they picked up was infected with jihadism and anti West narrative.
> 
> This leads to predicatable results.


These arguments do not hold up when you expand the 'sample size' and take into account religious fanatics from Morocco, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia or Central Asia. The majority of non-Iraqi and non-Syrian ISIS fighters are not Pakistani, they are from various Arab and Central Asian nations.

I can't see a consistent and rational correlation between individuals suffering from tensions between their nationalistic and religious identities and the decision to massacre and maim innocents in the name of 'Islam'. The kind of mindset that justifies the enslavement, rape and murder of children has far deeper ideological motivation and justification.

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## Yaduveer

Authorities say *the woman* who helped her husband kill 14 people a banquet at a social service center in Southern California had a Pakistani passport and came to the U.S. on a fiancee visa. 

- See more at: The Latest: Woman texted family a selfie after getting shot | www.actionnewsjax.com


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## VCheng

TruthSeeker said:


> The problem with being so "politically correct" about "profiling" Muslims is that too many deeply religious Muslims harbor a desire for violent "defense" of their religion and their Prophet. The fact is that deeply religious Muslims are the most likely subgroup in Western societies to act out their anger by killing defenseless non-Muslim people nearby to them. The fact is that Islam carries within its holy book, and within the recounted stories about its Prophet, justifications for this violent behavior. Profiling of Muslims as potential terrorists is simply a normal, human self-defense mechanism.



The present case will be studied in minute detail, and lessons learned will be applied, of that I have no doubt, Sir.


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## TheNoob

and they're automatically muslims.
yelling allah akbar while shooting down their aks.


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## Yaduveer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672484862796963844


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

TruthSeeker said:


> The problem with being so "politically correct" about "profiling" Muslims is that too many deeply religious Muslims harbor a desire for violent "defense" of their religion and their Prophet. The fact is that deeply religious Muslims are the most likely subgroup in Western societies to act out their anger by killing defenseless non-Muslim people nearby to them. The fact is that Islam carries within its holy book, and within the recounted stories about its Prophet, justifications for this violent behavior. Profiling of Muslims as potential terrorists is simply a normal, human self-defense mechanism.


I've been making this argument more forcefully since the Paris attacks, that the current interpretations of Islam and the attitudes promoted by Islamic scholars need to be reformed. Specifically from a Pakistani perspective, the intolerance and essentially outright justification for violence and terrorism in the name of 'blasphemy against the Prophet' and 'Ahmadi's worshiping a false prophet' needs to end outright. These attitudes and beliefs essentially create 'exceptions' within which murder and terrorism is acceptable, and in my view once an individual accepts this and believes such an 'exception' to be ideologically justified, it's easier to extend that ideological justification and motivation to more and more acts of violence that may or may not have any link to the original justification.

The Muslim world (Islamic scholars in particular) need to address the problems inherent in the Hadith. There are some rather depraved hadith in the books, and merely calling them 'un-authentic' or 'less authentic' is no longer acceptable. The Hadith need to be brought in line with the Quran and those hadith that justify violence, murder and prejudice stricken from the books.

A follow-up action to the above needs to be support from progressive Muslim organizations (government grants for research might be another way of funneling support) for progressive Islamic scholars that have been ostracized and shunned by the wider Muslim community for arguing against prevailing interpretations of the Quran.

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## Mrc

First of all RIP to fallen....

I would like to see bit more info before i comment..
Its very unusual for an organised terror plot...
But that does not mean its not....
Husband and wife with 6 month old daughter.... i mean what the £uck...
With usual terror isis taliban plots there are usually multiple teams multiple shooters


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## Water Car Engineer

Gamer-X said:


> Its the responsibility of American Govternment and Media to come and support muslims against hate crime and dont give terrorists opportunity to influence the minds of retarded muslims, the more the they push muslims towards isolation the more they are helping terrorists




Then they should just stop importing Muslims.


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## ZeusMK

i don't think this has anything to do with religion.
the act is purely non religious and definitively maniacal 
US should re establish and reform it's gun policy.
one after another incidents like these all leads to the prime cause of the abuse of the use of weapon policy in the US.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Water Car Engineer said:


> Then they should just stop importing Muslims.


This particular individual was born and bred in the US - a stop to 'importing Muslims' will not have stopped him and will not stop any others like him. They need to start supporting progressive Muslim scholars and find governments and organizations in the Muslim world that are willing to work with them to fund research and promotion into progressive interpretations of Islam.

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## Water Car Engineer

This is sad, I am not a Muslim, but I am a immigrant - just like these people. Harming the nation that adopted you, fed you is the most shameful thing you can possibly do.

Every Pakistani and Indian here that immigranted, or are kids of immigrants know what I am talking about.

You can now expect more Mosques being taped, or being sent moles. More Muslim organizations here tapped, etc. This is already happening, but it's going to rise.


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## VCheng

Mrc said:


> First of all RIP to fallen....
> 
> I would like to see bit more info before i comment..
> Its very unusual for an organised terror plot...
> But that does not mean its not....
> Husband and wife with 6 month old daughter.... i mean what the £uck...
> With usual terror isis taliban plots there are usually multiple teams multiple shooters



May be we should check whether he was circumcised or not and whether she had any skull tattoos first?


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## Water Car Engineer

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> This particular individual was born and bred in the US - a stop to 'importing Muslims' will not have stopped him and will not stop any others like him. They need to start supporting progressive Muslim scholars and find governments and organizations in the Muslim world that are willing to work with them to fund research and promotion into progressive interpretations of Islam.



They don't need support nothing, supporting progressive scholars is Muslims jobs, not the west. Europeans did it in the Renaissance, now they, for the most part aren't taking everything word, by word.

Until that happens, yes, immigration from these countries need to be limited.


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> This particular individual was born and bred in the US - a stop to 'importing Muslims' will not have stopped him and will not stop any others like him. They need to start supporting progressive Muslim scholars and find governments and organizations in the Muslim world that are willing to work with them to fund research and promotion into progressive interpretations of Islam.



As if the Closet Mullah (and Mulli) Brigade will let that work. Don't believe me? Try this approach on PDF and see what happens.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Water Car Engineer said:


> They don't need support nothing, supporting progressive scholars is Muslims jobs, not the west. Europeans did it in the Renaissance, now they, for the most part aren't taking everything word, by word.


Muslims in the West are 'Westerners'' and in many cases citizens of 'the West'. As long as funding for such research is constitutional, I don't see issues.


> Until that happens, yes, immigration from these countries need to be limited.


Which will, as pointed out in the previous post, achieve nothing in preventing such attacks by individuals born and bred in the US.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> As if the Closet Mullah (and Mulli) Brigade will let that work. Don't believe me? Try this approach on PDF and see what happens.


I've got my detractors, but plenty of supporters as well, and certainly enough understanding from the forum administration that I can voice such views without being censured.


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## Indus Pakistan

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Morocco, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia



All Arab. All tied into the Palestine cause. This is to be expected. These are one people divide by colonial drawn straight lines on the map.


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## Kaniska

Dance said:


> Pakistani's in the US tend to be educated and successful unlike some of the other diaspora (UK) Most of the Pakistanis that I have encountered in the US aren't even that religious or they tend to be moderate. But it is a worrying trend that people being born and raised in places like the US, Europe, Australia, etc are becoming more extremist than people being raised in places like Pakistan.




I think you are correct to some extent...One of the feature which i even feel suprised is that in case of Indian and BD South Asian, the affluent people are more or less not religious kind...which is completely different for Pakistan origin people...I have seen that higher middle class Pakistan origin people are more religious (Which is a good thing...) than even average cab driver...So whenever some one is religious, the way our media is just presents a narrative, it does not take much time for some lunatic people...to just change his mind to be a bad guy.....By looking at the picture, in no aspect, any one can even imagine that the familly could do like this...And i can see the immdiate impact in my office itself....Where gossiping has started exactly about how do you understand the mind of South Asian people...which is not an healthy sign...

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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I've got my detractors, but plenty of supporters as well, and certainly enough understanding from the forum administration that I can voice such views without being censured.



As an ex-Admin, yes. It will take a lot more effort than what you can provide, but please feel free to try. Sooner or later, you will run into the unspoken wall that has been nurtured carefully to provide the eye-dee-ah-lo-jee of Pakistan. The is the real problem that nobody wants resolved.


----------



## Azad-Kashmiri

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I've been making this argument more forcefully since the Paris attacks, that the current interpretations of Islam and the attitudes promoted by Islamic scholars need to be reformed. Specifically from a Pakistani perspective, the intolerance and essentially outright justification for violence and terrorism in the name of 'blasphemy against the Prophet' and 'Ahmadi's worshiping a false prophet' needs to end outright. These attitudes and beliefs essentially create 'exceptions' within which murder and terrorism is acceptable, and in my view once an individual accepts this and believes such an 'exception' to be ideologically justified, it's easier to extend that ideological justification and motivation to more and more acts of violence that may or may not have any link to the original justification.
> 
> The Muslim world (Islamic scholars in particular) need to address the problems inherent in the Hadith. There are some rather depraved hadith in the books, and merely calling them 'un-authentic' or 'less authentic' is no longer acceptable. The Hadith need to be brought in line with the Quran and those hadith that justify violence, murder and prejudice stricken from the books.
> 
> A follow-up action to the above needs to be support from progressive Muslim organizations (government grants for research might be another way of funneling support) for progressive Islamic scholars that have been ostracized and shunned by the wider Muslim community for arguing against prevailing interpretations of the Quran.



You qadiyanies are as bad as the Indians. Using this sad tragedy for your own political ends. Shame on you! There is no relevance between the Murders in Amrka and blasphemy laws. The laws stays and move on.


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## Trisonics

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> This particular individual was born and bred in the US - a stop to 'importing Muslims' will not have stopped him and will not stop any others like him. *They need to start supporting progressive Muslim scholars and find governments and organizations in the Muslim world that are willing to work with them to fund research and promotion into progressive interpretations of Islam.*



Easier said than done. A progressive Muslim also fears for his life and cares for his family and is not motivated enough like the radical ones to wish death. Whatever entities that do promote and research progressive interpretations of Islam will be the biggest target of the radicalized ones.

I think Muslims need to be more nationalistic. Nation Vs Religion could lead to a more progressive view. It's easier to sell and believe in patriotism than try and change Islamic interpretation in use today.

At the end of the day, any change can only lie in the will of a Muslim.


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## Water Car Engineer

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Muslims in the West are 'Westerners'' and in many cases citizens of 'the West'. As long as funding for such research is constitutional, I don't see issues.
> 
> Which will, as pointed out in the previous post, achieve nothing in preventing such attacks by individuals born and bred in the US.
> 
> 
> I've got my detractors, but plenty of supporters as well, and certainly enough understanding from the forum administration that I can voice such views without being censured.




I don't what tax payers money going to fix some ideology.

These guys keep stabbing their adopted father for this ideology, no amount of money is going change their mind.

Limiting migration is fine by me. Not enough people to deal with, thanks.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Water Car Engineer said:


> You can know expect more Mosques being taped, or being sent moles. More Muslim organizations here tapped, etc. This is already happening, but it's going to rise.


Personally, I don't see an issue with that, given that I support the same actions being taken in Pakistan. However, given the different demographic dynamics in the US, coordinating such monitoring with community leadership would be the best way to go about it and build relationships and trust over the long term that allow for far better intelligence gathering than a unilateral effort that isolates the community and limits useful intelligence because elements bent on committing illegal acts can identify and avoid potential locations under surveillance.


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## VCheng

Trisonics said:


> Easier said than done. A progressive Muslim also fears for his life and cares for his family and is not motivated enough like the radical ones to wish death. Whatever entities that do promote and research progressive interpretations of Islam will be the biggest target of the radicalized ones.
> 
> I think Muslims need to be more nationalistic. Nation Vs Religion could lead to a more progressive view. It's easier to sell and believe in patriotism than try and change Islamic interpretation in use today.
> 
> At the end of the day, any change can only lie in the will of a Muslim.



But what happens when a nation has spent three-quarters of a century cloaking itself with religion? Remove that cloak and nothing is left.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> As an ex-Admin, yes. It will take a lot more effort than what you can provide, but please feel free to try. Sooner or later, you will run into the unspoken wall that has been nurtured carefully to provide the eye-dee-ah-lo-jee of Pakistan. The is the real problem that nobody wants resolved.


When have I not spoken out against Blasphemy laws and anti-Ahmadi laws?

The problem is that your approach is a 'blanket' one against Pakistan's 'Islamic Republic' nature, whereas mine is directed specifically at adopting reformist interpretations of Islam. The problem here is not one restricted to Pakistan or the Objectives Resolution, it's a problem prevalent across many parts of the Muslim world where bigotry, violence and terrorism has been justified and the population indoctrinated with these beliefs under the garb of 'blasphemy'.

Whether Pakistan remains a theocratic State or not is irrelevant now - the issue is whether its constitution and laws will be changed to eliminate institutionalized bigotry and intolerance and whether the State will actively act to reform religious institutions and shut down those beyond hope of reform.

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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> When have I not spoken out against Blasphemy laws and anti-Ahmadi laws?
> 
> The problem is that your approach is a 'blanket' one against Pakistan's 'Islamic Republic' nature, whereas mine is directed specifically at adopting reformist interpretations of Islam. The problem here is not one restricted to Pakistan or the Objectives Resolution, it's a problem prevalent across many parts of the Muslim world where bigotry, violence and terrorism has been justified and the population indoctrinated with these beliefs under the garb of 'blasphemy'.
> 
> Whether Pakistan remains a theocratic State or not is irrelevant now - the issue is whether its constitution and laws will be changed to eliminate institutionalized bigotry and intolerance and whether the State will actively act to reform religious institutions and shut down those beyond hope of reform.



Rearranging the deck chairs will never save _Titanic_, Sir. Frankly, I do not care about the rest of the Muslim countries. They will get what is coming for them, and it has already started. Pakistan still may have a chance, although slim, to clean up its own house before it gets caught up in the coming maelstrom.


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## FullMetalJacket

These terrorists who happened to be muslims attacked a center for those having disability with learning. For what reason, no one is quite sure yet. Should these attack be lead to terrorism, which it eventually will, then the Right Wingers and Anti-Islam leagues will have a picnic day.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Atanz said:


> All Arab. All tied into the Palestine cause. This is to be expected. These are one people divide by colonial drawn straight lines on the map.


Even Pakistanis are 'tied into the Palestine cause', but none see themselves as Palestinian.

This link between an identity struggle and wanton, evil violence is tenuous. I'd argue that the main impact from such a conflict, with religious identity winning, is ideological support for a 'caliphate', along the lines of the HuT. But even here the 'conclusion' is largely a 'rational' one when we analyze it 'broadly' (it falls apart on specifics). 

The ideological support for a caliphate is rational (on the surface) because it purports to 'unify' around a billion people, leverage shared resources (human and natural) with the end result of a strong, advanced and 'Utopian' Islamic Caliphate. But where does random, unjustified and unprovoked violence against innocents fit in here?



Azad-Kashmiri said:


> You qadiyanies are as bad as the Indians. Using this sad tragedy for your own political ends. Shame on you! There is no relevance between the Murders in Amrka and blasphemy laws. The laws stays and move on.


Shia+Sunni family actually, thank you very much.

And perhaps you could actually try to rationally counter the arguments I made instead of actually validating my arguments by resorting to a 'foaming at the mouth display of personal attacks and prejudice'.

To simplify my point - the connection between terrorism perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam and Blasphemy laws and anti-Ahmadi laws is that the laws in question and the attitudes they engender essentially justify terrorism and violence, 'so long as it is directed against those who dishonor the Prophet Muhammad'. You see that? This is a loop-hole.

Islamic Scholars and Muslims are basically arguing that Terrorism and violence is OK as long as it's directed against the likes of Salman Rushdie, Charile Hebdo editors, Danish cartoonists, Salman Taseer etc. Once people have mentally justified terrorism and violence in those cases, it becomes easier to justify it against broader targets perceived to be supportive of those specific cases.

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## Azad-Kashmiri

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> between terrorism perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam



The Islamic scriptures never condoned the murder of civilians, so I don't know what terrorism you're talking about. Be specific so I can answer you.

If someone attacks our country in the name of Christianity, does it make it Christian terrorism? No! It was a lone act of criminality. If the act of terrorism was carried out by billions of them then we can generalize and say it's a religious issue.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> This is a loop-hole.



There are no loop-holes. Our problem is we don't have a unified Muslim state and a unified Islamic legal body. Now a days, like on PDF people copy and paste without ANY Islamic knowledge and giving fatwas.

If you can do this then why do we waste our time spending YEARS in madarasa learning different sciences to understand the quran? People spend years becoming a doctor and they would NEVER question him/her on the the diagnosis. If you don't like the opinion go to someone else who is qualified, but stop coming out with DIY opinions.

This is our PROBLEM! The disunity.


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## VCheng

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> This question is then why do we waste our time spending YEARS in madarassa learning different sciences to understand the quran.



You guys spend years in madrassas learning different sciences to understand the Quran? Funniest thing I have heard in a long time!

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You guys spend years in madrassas learning different sciences to understand the Quran? Funniest thing I have heard in a long time!



Enlighten us knowledgeable one!


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## VCheng

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Enlighten us knowledgeable one!



Your previous claim is pure 100% bullshit. Does that enlighten you enough, Sir?

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Your previous claim is pure 100% bullshit. Does that enlighten you enough, Sir?



And how would you know this, sir?


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## VCheng

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> And how would you know this, sir?



What madrassa is teaching different sciences to understand the Quran?


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> What madrassa is teaching different sciences to understand the Quran?



So funny! You made cross the board statement as ALL madaris don't and now you want to know what sciences?

Before I tell you what sciences do you know and name me a Madarassa that doesn't? Obviously you must have a madrasa in mind.


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## Mrc

Ok...
An american born muslim shoots his work colleagues in US..how is it related to qadiyanis is beyond me....

Why can we not wait to see what if any connections this lunatic had with pakistan before declaring qadiyani official religion of this country...

Many thanks...

Stay on topic

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## VCheng

FullMetalJacket said:


> These terrorists who happened to be muslims attacked a center for those having disability with learning. For what reason, no one is quite sure yet. Should these attack be lead to terrorism, which it eventually will, then the Right Wingers and Anti-Islam leagues will have a picnic day.



Let us wait for all the facts to be established, Sir. USA will remain a civilized society where rule of law is equal for all its citizens.



Water Car Engineer said:


> Then they should just stop importing Muslims.



There can _never _be a religious test or standard imposed for immigration, by US law.



TruthSeeker said:


> The problem with being so "politically correct" about "profiling" Muslims is that too many deeply religious Muslims harbor a desire for violent "defense" of their religion and their Prophet. The fact is that deeply religious Muslims are the most likely subgroup in Western societies to act out their anger by killing defenseless non-Muslim people nearby to them. The fact is that Islam carries within its holy book, and within the recounted stories about its Prophet, justifications for this violent behavior. Profiling of Muslims as potential terrorists is simply a normal, human self-defense mechanism.



You will find this story relevant, Sir:

Neighbors of San Bernardino shooters 'noticed them acting suspiciously' | Daily Mail Online

*Neighbors of husband and wife San Bernardino shooters 'noticed them acting suspiciously but did NOT report them for fear of racial profiling'*

*Syed Farook and wife Tashfeen Malik were 'receiving packages' and 'working at strange hours in their garage' according to their neighbors*
*But neighbors feared reporting them in case it was merely racial profiling*
*It has since emerged Farook and Malik had 12 pipe bombs in the house*
*The couple shot 65-70 rounds at Inland Regional Center on Wednesday*
*They had 12 pipe bombs, tools to assemble bombs, 2,000 9mm rounds, and over 2,500 223 rounds stored at their suburban home, according to the FBI *

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## Indus Pakistan

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Even Pakistanis



I don't have time now but will like your input on this issue - I want to look at this subject in detail later.

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## Indika

Shooter in California massacre was in touch with terror subject | New York Post

Syed Rizwan Farook, who killed 14 people in San Bernardino during a shooting rampage with his wife, visited Pakistan lat year and was in contact with more than one international terrorism subject whom the FBI was already investigating, sources and officials said on Thursday.

“He was in touch with others here that the FBI was looking at, and he very well could have been radicalized. But I’m not sure how major those other targets are,” the source said.

Other law enforcement sources told CNN that Farook’s apparent radicalization contributed to his motive, but that other things — like workplace grievances — also may have played a role.

He contacted the terrorism subject via social media and over the phone, CNN reported.

Farook traveled to Saudi Arabia two years ago as part of a hajj pilgrimage, which devout Muslims are required to do at some point in their lives, according to law enforcement sources.

Farook also visited Pakistan last year, according to David Bowdich, the assistant FBI director in charge of the Los Angeles office.

In July 2014, Farook returned to the US from Pakistan with his future wife, Tashfeen Malik, who entered the country on a K-1 or fiancée visa on her Pakistani passport, The New York Times reported.

Meanwhile, San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said Thursday that Farook and Malik, fired as many as 75 rifle rounds at the scene and left behind an explosive device rigged with three pipe bombs with a remote-control device – though it failed to detonate.

It apparently malfunctioned, Burguan said at the latest press conference.

told USA Today that they were bought in San Diego. Authorities are investigating their unnamed buyer.

Meredith Davis of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives said investigators are working to make a connection to the last legal purchaser. All four guns were bought four years ago.

The rifles involved were powerful enough to pierce the standard protective vest worn by cops, she said.

California requires paperwork when guns change hands privately but many other states don’t, she added.

By all accounts, Farook was leading the “American dream” as the married, US-born son of immigrants, with college degrees, a middle-class job and a newborn daughter.

according to ABC News.

The then-single Farook also noted that he didn’t smoke or drink.

Farook claimed he grew up in Chicago in a “religios [sic] but modern family of 4” and that he enjoyed “doing target practice with younger sister and friends” in his backyard.

Both Farook and Malik were of Pakistani descent.

While colleagues described Farook, who recently sprouted a beard, as deeply religious, he never talked about his faith at work.

“He never struck me as a fanatic, he never struck me as suspicious,” said Griselda Reisinger, who worked alongside the killer before she left the agency in May.

A man named “Syed Rizwan Farook” last went to school in 2013, at nearby Cal State Fullerton. Farook attended for one semester in the graduate program for environmental engineering, but he never attained his graduate degree, school records showed.

“We do not know and cannot confirm whether this is the same individual referenced in today’s news reports,” university spokeswoman Paula Selleck told the Riverside Press-Enterprise.

The couple’s loved ones can’t understand how they flipped out.

“I am in shock,” Farook’s brother-in-law Farhan Khan told reporters at a hastily called press conference at the Council on American-Islamic Relations in nearby Anaheim. “We all are just completely shocked. We had no idea something like this could happen.”

In another development, it emerged that Farook’s life while living with his parents was troubled.

In 2006 divorce filings, his mother detailed a violent marital history in which her children often had to intervene.

Rafia Farook said her husband of 24 years was physically and verbally abusive and was “negligent and an alcoholic,” according to documents filed in Riverside County Superior Court.

Her husband, she said, forced her and three of her children to move out. They moved into an Irvine residence.

Later, in multiple requests for domestic-violence protection, Rafia Farook detailed the maltreatment she said she encountered and that her kids witnessed: Her husband had once drunkenly dropped a TV on her. Another time, he pushed her toward a car.

After a drunken slumber, he shouted expletives and threw dishes in the kitchen.

“Inside the house he tried to hit me. My daughter came in between to save me,” she said about one incident. Police were not called to the home, she said.

“He is always mad,” she said. “Screaming on me, shouting at my kids for no reason. … My son came in between to save me.”

It was unclear if she was referring to Syed Rizwan Farook, who at the time was 19 and living with her, according to documents.

Meanwhile, 10 shooting victims are being treated at two hospitals.

San Bernardino County spokeswoman Felisa Cardona told The AP that all five patients at Arrowhead Regional Medical Center were in stable condition Thursday morning.

One other patient left the hospital after being treated Wednesday, she said.

Loma Linda University Medical Center is treating five patients — two in critical condition and three in fair condition, CEO Kerry Heinrich said.

US Attorney General Loretta Lynch said the Justice Department will be offering “any and all assistance necessary” as the investigation continues.


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## SirHatesALot

RIP to victims.


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## Yahoooooo!

Stories of those who died in the mass shooting in California

Nicholas Thalasinos, 52, identified as a Messianic Jew and passionately defended Israel, actively debating about religion in online forums and in person, his friends said. Only two weeks ago, Thalasinos was having a heated on-the-job discussion about the nature of Islam with Syed Rizwan Farook, his fellow restaurant inspector and the man police identified as the shooter.

Thalasinos' friend, Kuuleme Stephens, said she happened to call him while he was working with Farook, and that he brought her into their debate, loudly declaring that Farook "doesn't agree that Islam is not a peaceful religion." Farook countered that Americans don't understand Islam, and Thalasinos responded by saying "I don't know how to talk with him," she said.

Stephens said she didn't sense any pending violence at the time, and it is not clear if their debates factored in the attack. Stephens said Thalasinos did not believe his co-worker would ever turn violent. However, his wife Jennifer said "she believes her husband was martyred for his faith and beliefs," Stephens said.

Nicholas and Jennifer Thalasinos had recently renewed their marriage vows, and they appeared together frequently on his Facebook page.

"He was a wonderful person," said Joey Shimoni, another friend. "A great husband and just a sweet soul."

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## Mrc

Apparently the killer couple on engagement in pakistan. Wife worked as a pharmacist in saudia


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## anon45

ZeusMK said:


> i don't think this has anything to do with religion.
> the act is purely non religious and definitively maniacal
> US should re establish and reform it's gun policy.
> one after another incidents like these all leads to the prime cause of the abuse of the use of weapon policy in the US.



California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the US



F-22Raptor said:


> CNN reports that Farook had been radicalized and had been in touch with more than one international terrorism suspects by phone and social media.



This is just bad. 

Farook was essentially American. He was born here, grew up here, came from a religious family, he sounds like he was well off relatively, and he had just started a family of his own.

Its troubling that he would throw away a bright future for this, even if his wife was urging him too (fucking inconceivable after she had birthed her own child).



His family, or at least those taking care of the child should move, that baby will face nothing but hardship in school if they stay in that area


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## New Resolve

A religious nut with a wife to go (someone needs to look into her, no more online dating),
a grudge against his co-workers,
access to guns,
deadly cocktail.


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## nForce

Mrc said:


> Apparently the killer couple on engagement in pakistan. Wife worked as a pharmacist in saudia


People will see a woman wearing a saree in that picture and then Indians will be persecuted.

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## Indika

nForce said:


> People will see a woman wearing a saree in that picture and then Indians will be persecuted.


Agreed .....but isnt burqa their cultural dress . already beards are associated with sikhs too and they end up becoming targets for revenge attacks.

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## Mrc

Thing is they dont look very radical in that pic...
Saree... half sleeves... no head scarf...
Farook seems very happy and confortable with his wife's dress...

What changed in last w years??

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## nForce

eyeswideshut said:


> Agreed .....but isnt burqa their cultural dress . already beards are associated with sikhs too and they end up becoming targets for revenge attacks.


yes. Beards and turbans were targetted. The attacker in those cases had at least realized that he made a mistake in choosing his intended target.
In this case the lady is wearing a saree!! Damn. Now half of them will directly start relating it with India. Perception matters.

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## Abingdonboy

nForce said:


> yes. Beards and turbans were targetted. The attacker in those cases had at least realized that he made a mistake in choosing his intended target.
> In this case the lady is wearing a saree!! Damn. Now half of them will directly start relating it with India. Perception matters.



After the Boston marathon bombings many on social media were connecting entirely unrelated affairs and pointing fingers at a missing Indian-American student named Sunil. Americans, like most, are entirely ignorant and generalise more often than not.

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## Abingdonboy

@Topic a truly crazy and mind-boggling attack based on the terrorists. I mean it is one thing to find a like minded induvidual online but for that person to be YOUR WIFE? I just can't understand this level of crazy whilst acting so normal. There must be a hell of a lot of sick people out there.

Bloody scum who have left their young child an orphan to grow up with everyone knowing the actions of her parents- she is unlikely to have a happy life. This is yet another level of evel on top of it all.


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## Solomon2

A friend says a man who was killed in the rampage at a Southern California social service center worked with one of the shooters and they had a heated conversation about Islam two weeks before the attack.

It's not clear if the discussion was a factor in the attack.

Kuuleme Stephens says she happened to call 52-year-old Nicholas Thalasinos while he was at work and having a discussion with Syed Farook.

Thalasinos identified Farook by name and told her Farook believed Islam was a peaceful religion.

She added that Farook said Americans don't understand Islam.

Stephens says both men worked as county restaurant inspectors and regularly discussed politics and religion. Thalasinos identified as a Messianic Jew [Solomon2 note: "Messianic Jew" = Jews for Jesus/Jehova's Witness = Christian] and was passionate about pro-Israel causes.

Thalasinos' wife, Jennifer Thalasinos, told The New York Times that her husband had talked about Farook but never said anything negative.

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## VCheng

Abingdonboy said:


> @Topic a truly crazy and mind-boggling attack based on the terrorists. I mean it is one thing to find a like minded induvidual online but for that person to be YOUR WIFE and then to recruit a THIRD person and go and commit such an act WITH THEM? I just can't understand this level of crazy whilst acting so normal. There must be a hell of a lot of sick people out there.
> 
> Bloody scum who have left their young child an orphan to grow up with everyone knowing the actions of her parents- she is unlikely to have a happy life. This is yet another level of evel on top of it all.



There was no third person involved. The person initially implicated has been cleared.

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## Solomon2

nForce said:


> Putting the names here isn't probably the right thing to do. Those who need to know the names specifically, they know it already. Lot of demented people here. You put the names here and they will start searching for them on social media.


You convinced me. Now you have to edit your post.

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## Abingdonboy

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> There was no third person involved. The person initially implicated has been cleared.


My apolgies, I haven't been following this incident as closely as I should and it seems my information was woefully outdated.


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## nForce

Solomon2 said:


> You convinced me. Now you have to edit your post.



Done.


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## VCheng

Solomon2 said:


> Thalasinos identified Farook by name and told her Farook believed Islam was a peaceful religion.
> 
> She added that Farook said Americans don't understand Islam.



Yeah right. Now people will believe him? It is what he did that will speak more loudly than what he said. Islam is only what its followers do, obviously, not what they claim.

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## Solomon2

...A profile on one of the many matchmaking websites much used by South Asians at home and abroad shows Farook’s family long ago reached beyond U.S. borders to seek a bride....one of Farook’s favorite things to do is “just hang out in back yard doing target pratice (sic) with younger sister and friends.”

Other listed enjoyments: working on modern and vintage cars, reading religious books, eating out and traveling...
a young man fresh out of college with one foot in the West and the other in South Asian culture.

The profile describes him as coming from a “religios (sic) but modern” family, and the family’s values as an “Eastern and Western mix.”


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## Water Car Engineer

Mrc said:


> Apparently the killer couple on engagement in pakistan. Wife worked as a pharmacist in saudia




This picture and the one with him with the phone shows him like any other desi here, rather liberal looking.

This and the Boston bombers were also very, "integrated", but still were swayed into radicalism.







Another - like I said, like any other desi. It rather bizarre these type of people are swayed rather easily.

There is a cockroach that seeded, and groomed these people. A lot of which are in the religious placed themselves.

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## Solomon2

12 of the 14 killed were county workers and 18 of the 21 injured.

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## somebozo

Why do America have soo much shooting and home grown terrorism???


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## Solomon2

Syed Rizwan Farook is pictured in his California driver's license, in this undated handout provided by the California Department of Motor Vehicles, on December 3, 2015. (Reuters)

Farook was a US citizen, while Tashfeen was in the US on a Pakistani passport and had a K1 "fiance visa", according to David Bowdich, assistant director of the Los Angeles Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) office.

"She was issued, a K-1 so- called "fiance visa" in 2012. She did receive that from Pakistan that allowed her to travel here to the US," Mr Toner said.


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## illusion8

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Sounds like you're quoting the Zionist-Talmud. Having read comments on here it was about a Christmas party disagreement and he went home angry and told his wife. I guess it was something about avenging her honor and she came back to take care of her honor as well.
> 
> No indication of religion or anything else. If he was a devout person he wouldn't have done this murderous act.
> 
> 
> 
> She is a typical INDIAN wife who stands by her INDIAN husband even when he's doing wrong! Why were people from your country cheering when a Indian wife of an alleged ISI operative said she'll give her child away?



Because she doesn't want to be a mother of a terrorists child..?? This one on the other hand came from pakistan and started making pipe bombs at home to blow up some kafirs. .Two opposite poles there.


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## Viper0011.

F-22Raptor said:


> The top police officer just confirmed that there were explosives. This had been planned for some time. They both wore armor as well.



No armor, just gear to hide / carry hidden weapons.

@Hyperion @Syed.Ali.Haider @Oscar : I've been following your posts. I really want to know this, how do you live your life in a country, born and raised there, and a part of the culture. And one day, you take a little trip to whatever country like KSA, Pakistan, etc, and come back, and that two / three weeks worth of trip has overwritten your entire life?

And you become SO crazy, barbaric and blind sided that you don't even care about humans and you mass kill wherever you can strike?

What's the brainwashing ideology behind this? What do these people fukking use to brainwash? It makes no sense how come one or two little trips can overwrite the entire life's worth of struggle and experience????

I think this needs to be debated and people should chip in their knowledge. So that may be some sort of a mechanism can be developed to counter these insanely destructive brainwashing ideologies. Many lives can be saved if people open up and discuss these. I am sure that someone on here, might have been through some experience, that may not have impacted them, but it might impact others differently like this crazy guy who killed so many, in the same place he used to work at.

I went to see my doctor today, who is an Indian Muslim. The guy was VERY concerned about Muslim population and the effect on their children due to these events, and any hate crimes, etc. Which, I can understand, but there needs to be an open debate about how to stop this brainwashing, what are the methods which, in a few weeks, can turn one into hating and a murderer, in the SAME place where they've grown up, made friends, etc, etc!!??

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## Bang Galore

Mrc said:


> Apparently the killer couple on engagement in pakistan. Wife worked as a pharmacist in saudia



There seems to be some confusion about the pictures. Quite possible that this one is his brother. Seems they have similar sounding names, Syed Rizwan Farook & Syed Raheel Farook.

Tashfeen Malik | Fellowship of the Minds



Viper0011. said:


> ? What's the brainwashing ideology behind this? It makes no sense how come one or two little trips can overwrite the entire life's worth of struggle and experience????



I can't wrap my head around what cause could have driven the mother of a 6 month old to abandon her child for this. Scary.


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## Solomon2

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Sounds like you're quoting the Zionist-Talmud. Having read comments on here it was about a Christmas party disagreement and he went home angry and told his wife. I guess it was something about avenging her honor and she came back to take care of her honor as well.
> 
> No indication of religion or anything else. If he was a devout person he wouldn't have done this murderous act.


It's extremely dishonest of you to construct a scenario unsupported by the complete set of known facts, then use that to "prove" your contention. 

Yes, I know that for Pakistanis the truth-is-stuff-you-pick-out-from-a-cafeteria-line approach is deemed sufficient, but that's an indication of the depth of corruption in Pakistani society.

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## Viper0011.

Bang Galore said:


> I can't wrap my head around what cause could have driven the mother of a 6 month old to abandon her child for this. Scary.



I am at a loss that beyond explanation. This shiit here, makes NO fukking sense!!!! You'd leave a little baby KNOWING you might not come back as parents???? WTF???? People love their dogs more than this, and don't want to be away for more than what they have to!!!

And these people were a part of the party from what the media is telling us, so WHY destroy so many lives and fukk up your own family, specially a little infant that you carelessly abandoned??? I am really wanting to hear some answers from our Muslim and specially Pakistani members. What does everyone think happens to these people that they turn this violent so quickly, just after a few weeks worth of time in one of these countries?

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## Indus Pakistan

somebozo said:


> home grown terrorism?



You don't know what terrorism is if you have not heard of IRA. For over 40 years IRA declared all out war against the British state, men, women children were murdered by Irish Catholics. As a young man growing up in 1980s, week would not pass without some IRA atrocity.

The "Troubles" as they are called cost the lives of over 3,500 people from children to old men, from soldiers to Queens uncle Lord Mountbatten. The Queen was targeted, Prime Minister of UK was targeted. The amazing thing was looking back then we equated the word "terrorism" with Irish Catholic. It never occured to me that in my lifetime I would see Muslims become notorious for terrorism. How things change. Today Irish terrorism is fast fading into distant history.

The strange thing is most of the money and weapons that IRA recieved came from Irish Catholic supporters in USA in particular from Boston area. The US made Aramalite was preferred choice of gun by IRA terrorists. The Hollywood movied with Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford The Devil's Own - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is inspired by the Troubles.

The Troubles - Once upon a time in UK

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## Bang Galore

Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik: Everything We Know About The Suspected Shooters | ThinkProgress

Syed Farook, Tashfeen Malik erased digital footprints day before San Bernardino attacks - Washington Times

Who Is Tashfeen Malik? Pakistani Immigrant's Background Reportedly 'Focus Of Investigation' Into San Bernardino Mass Shooting

Authorities move toward terrorism as motive in San Bernardino rampage - Washington Times

Update On Suspects: Syed Farook And Tashfeen Malik Had ‘IED Factory’ In Their Home


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## sankar

SMC said:


> Given almost all mass shootings are carried out by white Americans, is that particular group going to be under the under as well?



There are plenty of shootings happened for personal greed is US. But not as planned as this one. This will increase as this is sophisticated Lone wolf terror. This kind of acts will certainly isolate Pakistani Muslim community. This is not the answer. 

If there is any issue, it should be dealt legally. Not the other way around my friend. Maybe you can think what you want. But let me remind to take note of what the rest of the world think you Pakistan.


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## Bang Galore

Syed Rizwan Farook Photo: 28-Year-Old’s Dating Website Photo — Plus Wife Tashfeen Malik’s Graphic Photo


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## ito

Bang Galore said:


> Possible picture of Tafsheen Malik. Link below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Syed Rizwan Farook Photo: 28-Year-Old’s Dating Website Photo — Plus Wife Tashfeen Malik’s Graphic Photo



Are looking like an ordinary family.


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## jaunty

Bang Galore said:


> Possible picture of Tafsheen Malik. Link below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Syed Rizwan Farook Photo: 28-Year-Old’s Dating Website Photo — Plus Wife Tashfeen Malik’s Graphic Photo



It's astonishing how such normal people can get radicalized by hardline Islam. Not a great news for Pakistanis living abroad.


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## American Pakistani

Why are these kind of m0f0 born.


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## F-22Raptor

Bang Galore said:


> There seems to be some confusion about the pictures. Quite possible that this one is his brother. Seems they have similar sounding names, Syed Rizwan Farook & Syed Raheel Farook.
> 
> Tashfeen Malik | Fellowship of the Minds
> 
> 
> 
> I can't wrap my head around what cause could have driven the mother of a 6 month old to abandon her child for this. Scary.



It makes no sense. She arrived to the US in July 2014, gets pregnant, and gives birth 6 months ago. Then she's radicalized, and abandons her child to commit mass murder? Some serious brainwashing had to have occurred.


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## Bang Galore

ito said:


> Are looking like an ordinary family.





jaunty said:


> It's astonishing how such normal people can get radicalized by hardline Islam. Not a great news for Pakistanis living abroad.



Would exercise caution about the pics. Just noticed that it says Raheel (_the brother)_ not Rizwan. Think it is the picture of the brother & his wife.

Will delete but leave the link standing.


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## Solomon2

Atanz said:


> ...It never occured to me that in my lifetime I would see Muslims become notorious for terrorism. How things change...


Do you think that's because you blanked out or distorted the experience of many non-Muslims and non-Arabs in the Middle East and Asia, from East Timor to Mauritania, from the Caucasus to Zanzibar?

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## Ice Cube

LOL, soo... Pakistanis, eh ?


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## Indus Pakistan

Solomon2 said:


> Do you think that's because you blanked out or distorted the experience of many non-Muslims and non-Arabs in the Middle East and Asia, from East Timor to Mauritania, from the Caucasus to Zanzibar?



I am only human. I was* young *in 1980s. My outlook only extended within UK. If I did blank or distorted then it would be no more or no less then others who do the same for experiance of millions in Balkans 1990s.

And the true c*rucible of death* and destruction which set benchmark in human suffering, that is 60 million dead, two nuclear weapons detonated, six million Jews murdered - I believe we call it 5 year killfest WW2 and we all know Muslims were behind it. We ignore that all the time.

And just for your information I am a secular Muslim as much as you are a secular Jew. I doubt you practice:-

*“The sexual intercourse of a Goy is like to that of a beast.” (Sanhedrin 74b Tosephoth)*

*Sanhedrin 59a
To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.

Libbre David 37

A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them.
Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156

If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth.
*
I doubt you follow such outdated thinking. Well I certainly hope so, being a *Goyim* is not a attractive proposition. I also don't follow the outdated thinking in Quran. I guess we both are secular and have deviated from our respective "books"? And we are better for it.



Ice Cube said:


>



Many people have died and your celebrating. Your one sick, twisted, deranged ape.

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## Ice Cube

Atanz said:


> Many people have died and your celebrating. Your one sick, twisted, deranged ape.


the sick twisted deranged apes were your mard e mommin jihadi terrorist Pakistani couple

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Who was the third party


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## SMC

Atanz said:


> Many people have died and your celebrating. Your one sick, twisted, deranged ape.



There's something finally for bharatis to celebrate for. It's how their twisted mind works but I've talked about it before. In the last 2-3 years basically nearly all Islamic terrorist attacks have originated out of MENA and due to ISIS. Bharatis were getting restless as they couldn't use those terrorist attacks against Pakistan. It's been a slow (or non-existent) last few years for them. But finally, their wish is granted, even if the link to Pakistan isn't that concrete (i.e. the terrorists didn't train in Pakistan or got funded from there, they only have a biological connection -- the bharatis will take it though).

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## Areesh

Ice Cube said:


> the sick twisted deranged apes were your mard e mommin jihadi terrorist Pakistani couple



Yes they were Pakistani. But guess what!!

Despite that this incident would have absolutely no impact on Pak-US relations and Pakistan would still get 8 F16Block52, 15 Vipers, 1000 hellfire missiles which would be used against you in case of war.


Now how does that feel to you? I know your bharati black veggie bhund would be on fire once you would realize this reality.


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## I.R.A

Areesh said:


> Yes they were Pakistani. But guess what!!
> 
> Despite that this incident would have absolutely no impact on Pak-US relations and Pakistan would still get 8 F16Block52, 15 Vipers, 1000 hellfire missiles which would be used against you in case of war.
> 
> 
> Now how does that feel to you? I know your bharati black veggie bhund would be on fire once you would realize this reality.




It has always been and to keep it forever ................ proper ventilation in form of chaddiiz is used. Oxygen is necessary to keep the flames going. Iraq, Sham, Iran, Kuwait kay tail kay kunwoo ki aag buj sakti hay par chaddiii ki gas ki nahi.


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## Ice Cube

Areesh said:


> Yes they were Pakistani. But guess what!!
> 
> Despite that this incident would have absolutely no impact on Pak-US relations and Pakistan would still get 8 F16Block52, 15 Vipers, 1000 hellfire missiles.
> 
> 
> Now how does that feel to you? I know your bharati black veggie bhund would be on fire once you would realize this reality.


just like osama bin laden had absolutely no impact ? 

Pakistan are already considered a dangerous nation with a large highly radicalized wahhabi terrorist population, this will help reinforce that narrative.

Pakistan and terror, terror and pakistan.

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## chander_011

Areesh said:


> Yes they were Pakistani. But guess what!!
> 
> Despite that this incident would have absolutely no impact on Pak-US relations and Pakistan would still get 8 F16Block52, 15 Vipers, 1000 hellfire missiles which would be used against you in case of war.
> 
> 
> Now how does that feel to you? I know your bharati black veggie bhund would be on fire once you would realize this reality.


Hahaha. The reply made me laugh. Do you know why? Frankly A day will come when USA will get fed up with the way things are going. Like helping Pakistan getting IMF loans giving special status etc


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## SMC

Ice Cube said:


> just like osama bin laden had absolutely no impact ?
> 
> Pakistan are already considered a dangerous nation with a large highly radicalized wahhabi terrorist population, this will help reinforce that narrative.
> 
> Pakistan and terror, terror and pakistan.



It looks like you're in denial about ISIS, like rest of bharatis. Most of the world is looking at ISIS as the big threat. And unfortunately for you, you can't use ISIS against Pakistan. Now go cry about it.


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## Mythal

Areesh said:


> Yes they were Pakistani. But guess what!!
> 
> Despite that this incident would have absolutely no impact on Pak-US relations and Pakistan would still get 8 F16Block52, 15 Vipers, 1000 hellfire missiles which would be used against you in case of war.
> 
> 
> Now how does that feel to you? I know your bharati black veggie bhund would be on fire once you would realize this reality.


An Indian can apply for US Visa, get the Visa interview appointment and go to US as soon as he gets his passport stamped.
A Pakistan has to apply for US visa atleast 3 months before he indents to travel. I wonder why is that.

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## Hello It's me

Areesh said:


> Yes they were Pakistani. But guess what!!
> 
> Despite that this incident would have absolutely no impact on Pak-US relations and Pakistan would still get 8 F16Block52, 15 Vipers, 1000 hellfire missiles which would be used against you in case of war.
> 
> 
> Now how does that feel to you? I know your bharati black veggie bhund would be on fire once you would realize this reality.


oh dear. you have no idea, what westerners (especially Americans) hold view on Pakistan. I have several examples that I can't quote here, but lets just say if you are a pakistani, try not to go to these countries for settlement.

The common people there have been fed with anti-muslim and anti-pakistan propaganda. I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it myself.


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## untitled

Hello It's me said:


> oh dear. you have no idea, what westerners (especially Americans) hold view on Pakistan. I have several examples that I can't quote here, but lets just say if you are a pakistani, try not to go to these countries for settlement.
> 
> The common people there have been fed with anti-muslim and anti-pakistan propaganda. I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it myself.


 A man is known by the company he keeps. Is that the kind of people you seek out and befriend?


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## Hello It's me

persona_non_grata said:


> A man is known by the company he keeps. Is that the kind of people you seek out and befriend?


It was a part of my project. I am doing MA in international studies


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## Areesh

Ice Cube said:


> just like osama bin laden had absolutely no impact ?
> 
> Pakistan are already considered a dangerous nation with a large highly radicalized wahhabi terrorist population, this will help reinforce that narrative.
> 
> Pakistan and terror, terror and pakistan.



Narratives don't matter. US govt policies matter. Narratives are for you bharati bacha party.

OBL episode had no practical impact on Pakistan. Despite that episode Pakistan got billions in military and economic support. Now go masturbate on some so called narrative. 



Mythal said:


> An Indian can apply for US Visa, get the Visa interview appointment and go to US as soon as he gets his passport stamped.
> A Pakistan has to apply for US visa atleast 3 months before he indents to travel. I wonder why is that.



So after all your failed attempts to isolate Pakistan, only face saving for you is that Pakistanis face difficulty in US visa. 



Hello It's me said:


> oh dear. you have no idea, what westerners (especially Americans) hold view on Pakistan. I have several examples that I can't quote here, but lets just say if you are a pakistani, try not to go to these countries for settlement.
> 
> The common people there have been fed with anti-muslim and anti-pakistan propaganda. I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it myself.



Thousands of Pakistanis are already settled in those countries and this episode would have no impact US-Pak relations. You can wish. You can dream. You can even plead and beg to USA to do something about Pakistan but nothing would happen practically. Cool haan?? :Azn:



Color_Less_Sky said:


> It has always been and to keep it forever ................ proper ventilation in form of chaddiiz is used. Oxygen is necessary to keep the flames going. Iraq, Sham, Iran, Kuwait kay tail kay kunwoo ki aag buj sakti hay par chaddiii ki gas ki nahi.



True. It is not easy to extinguish fire of bharati chaddi. But there is one thing in this world that can extinguish fire of bharati chaddis. And that thing is Pakistan. Only Pakistan and Pakistanis can not only put off fire of the bharati chaddis but can also tear those chaddis if needed.

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## Mythal

Areesh said:


> Narratives don't matter. US govt policies matter. Narratives are for you bharati bacha party.
> 
> OBL episode had no practical impact on Pakistan. Despite that episode Pakistan got billions in military and economic support. Now go masturbate on some so called narrative.
> 
> 
> 
> So after all your failed attempts to isolate Pakistan, only face saving for you is that Pakistanis face difficulty in US visa.



First of all it is not because of Indian attempts to isolate Pakistan but because of the actions of Pakistani people.
Secondly do you realize how big a thing 3 month wait time is?


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## Water Car Engineer

Inside, nothing graphic, but you can see the hostages and gunmen posted.. Body armor and rifle.


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## jaunty

Atanz said:


> Many people have died and your celebrating. Your one sick, twisted, deranged ape.



Ever thought of that when you make fun of hard working Indian rickshaw pullers like this on every freaking thread, you sick, deranged ape?

India’s manned space mission, not in near future … or never?

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## Yaduveer

*'Radicalised' California shooter had terror ties: reports*
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents have taken charge of the investigation into Wednesday's mass shooting in San Bernardino and were combing through evidence, including cell phones and a computer hard drive, to determine what prompted Syed Farook, 28, and his 27-year-old *Pakistani* wife Tashfeen Malik to carry out the rampage that also left 21 people wounded.

'Radicalised' California shooter had terror ties: reports - World - DAWN.COM

The Muslim husband and wife behind the mass shooting in San Bernardino began erasing their digital footprint a day in advance of the deadly attack, deleting email accounts, disposing of hard drives and smashing their cellphones, according to law enforcement investigators who are treating the probe as a counterterrorism case.

Working to determine whether terrorism was the motive in the attack at a government-organized holiday party, officials scrambled to re-create the travels, contacts and lifestyle of Farook, a 28-year-old U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent, and his 27-year-old Pakistani wife.


Syed Farook, Tashfeen Malik erased digital footprints day before San Bernardino attacks - Washington Times

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## Ice Cube

/watch?v=kmBpYXaqRJM





/watch?v=UisfgE7PCLM


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## VCheng

Viper0011. said:


> @Hyperion @Syed.Ali.Haider @Oscar : I've been following your posts. I really want to know this, how do you live your life in a country, born and raised there, and a part of the culture. And one day, you take a little trip to whatever country like KSA, Pakistan, etc, and come back, and that two / three weeks worth of trip has overwritten your entire life?
> 
> And you become SO crazy, barbaric and blind sided that you don't even care about humans and you mass kill wherever you can strike?



That discussion can take place only after all the facts are known, and probably best done somewhere else, not on PDF, given the environment here. The investigation still continues.



Viper0011. said:


> And these people were a part of the party from what the media is telling us, so WHY destroy so many lives and fukk up your own family, specially a little infant that you carelessly abandoned??? I am really wanting to hear some answers from our Muslim and specially Pakistani members. What does everyone think happens to these people that they turn this violent so quickly, just after a few weeks worth of time in one of these countries?



Are you sure you can bear hearing the truthful answers to the questions you ask, Sir? Many here would not be able to tolerate them.



Atanz said:


> It never occured to me that in my lifetime I would see Muslims become notorious for terrorism.



Sir, we have been collectively working quite hard to create that notoriety for decades now.

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## shree835

WASHINGTON: One of the key suspects of the California mass shooting received her US fiance visa in Islamabad after which she travelled to the US and got married, the US State Department has said.

"She (Tashfeen Malik) got the visa in Pakistan. I'm sure she got the visa in Pakistan," State Department Deputy Spokesman Mark Toner told reporters at his daily news conference yesterday.

Tashfeen Malik's parents had immigrated from Pakistan. She along with her husband Syed Rizwan Farook were involved in a mass shooting at a holiday party in San Bernardino that killed 14 people and injured at least 17, the police said.

"She was issued the K-1 visa - which is normally given to fiance - by the US Embassy in Islamabad. Once a K-1 visa is issued, as per general procedure, the person has to marry the fiancee within 90 days of the arrival in the US," Mr Toner said.


K-1 visa becomes null and void if the marriage is not done within the stipulated 90 days. Farook's brother-in-law, Farhan Khan, said the couple got married two years ago.

Farook was a US citizen, while Tashfeen was in the US on a Pakistani passport and had a K1 "fiance visa", according to David Bowdich, assistant director of the Los Angeles Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) office.

"She was issued, a K-1 so- called "fiance visa" in 2012. She did receive that from Pakistan that allowed her to travel here to the US," Mr Toner said.

Farook, son of an immigrant from Pakistan, was born in the US and was working as an environmental health specialist for San Bernardino County.

On Wednesday the couple left their six month old daughter at the home of their parents, and then went on a shooting spree at the holiday party of his own office.

The police said the shooting had been planned well in advance. The FBI has been pressed into service. All the four guns found at their home was purchased legally, the FBI said.

According to Los Angeles Times, a federal law enforcement said although investigators have yet to establish a clear motive in the shooting, they are leaning toward a possible "combination of terrorism and workplace" motivation.

California Shooting Suspect Had Pakistan Passport: Officials

USA shooting suspect had Pakistan passport

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## Imran Khan

its international Jewish conspiracy against Islamic pakistan and Muslims the guy is not Muslim and Islam is religion of peace

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## Politico

Imran Khan said:


> its international Jewish conspiracy against Islamic pakistan and Muslims the guy is not Muslim and Islam is religion of peace



indian false flagger troll


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## 544_delta

thought this was a case of domestic terrorism? im confused now


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## Bharat_Bhakt

Imran Khan said:


> its international Jewish conspiracy against Islamic pakistan and Muslims the guy is not Muslim and Islam is religion of peace


 im speechless


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## Rajkumar

Facts are presented in confusing ways and in specific order to take it in given direction. 



544_delta said:


> thought this was a case of domestic terrorism? im confused now


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## Indus Pakistan

jaunty said:


> you sick, deranged ape?



Those posts are not making fun of the "hard working rickshaw drivers" but of a *society* that has built such *inequal calculus* that they are forced to work like* animals*. 

Whereas this comment was making fun of the *dead victims*. Even your crushed neanderthal skull ought to be able to figure out the differance between the two.

_And at least show slight pretence of originality by using your own words but then that is beyond you people._

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## Tipu7

So after Saudi, and Syrian passport, Pakistani passport is also in game

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## Peaceful Civilian

Imran Khan said:


> its international Jewish conspiracy against Islamic pakistan and Muslims the guy is not Muslim and Islam is religion of peace


While Osama bin ladin was also not found in Pakistan. Still people love to remain in delusion and enjoying to play with dream & conspiracy theories. Same as they ignored threat from taliban.

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## Bharat_Bhakt

so what is the big deal if they had green passport even those who did 9/11 majority were Saudi nationals... i wonder what would be heading if they had saudi passport ... it was a case of workplace stress taking toll like that not terrorism


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## Imran Khan

Peaceful Civilian said:


> While Osama bin ladin was also not found Pakistan. Still people love to remain in delusion and enjoying to play with dream & conspiracy theories. Same as they ignored threat from taliban.


that was CIA drama to face save . usama was dead in 2002


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## Mrc

Ok 
According to suspect's family attorney SUSPECT NEVER TRAVELLED TO PAKISTAN (making past 40 pages of this thread thrashing pakistan obsolete)


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## paritosh

I don't think that religion was involved in this was it?
If not, then no point highlighting the country of origin.


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## Mrc

Suspect travelled twice to saudia...never to pakistan...

His wife was living in riyadh for more than 10 years...moved out of pakistan when she was 17....


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## The Sandman

Imran Khan said:


> Islam is religion of peace


Are u a muslim? just asking not trolling cuz im confused here :/


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## Guynextdoor2

But what was th motive? There's at least one version that talks about a fight.


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## I S I

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> so what is the big deal if they had green passport even those who did 9/11 majority were Saudi nationals... i wonder what would be heading if they had saudi passport ... it was a case of workplace stress taking toll like that not terrorism it happens way too often in US even kids of same school are seen doing such crimes against there school mates in a fit or rage


Whoa


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## RazorMC

Only minor news outlets are publishing this "_news_". Others didn't bother with it.


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## Imran Khan

DesertFox97 said:


> Are u a muslim? just asking not trolling cuz im confused here :/


why so worry sir i just write what is normal daily life answer of Muslims . did i say different then anyone ?

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## Bharat_Bhakt

I S I said:


> Whoa


i dint get your point sir kindly explain


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## The Sandman

Imran Khan said:


> why so worry sir i just write what is normal daily life answer of Muslims . did i say different then anyone ?


No it's just u said *Islam is a religion of peace *in a sarcastic way so..... :/


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## rockstar08

Ramond Davis was American


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## Politico

DesertFox97 said:


> No it's just u said *Islam is a religion of peace *in a sarcastic way so..... :/



hes a baniya hindu troll who live in calcutta and like 2 believe he is pakistani 

i am trolling u imran khan


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## Imran Khan

DesertFox97 said:


> No it's just u said *Islam is a religion of peace *in a sarcastic way so..... :/


these days every thing become sarcastic janab . when Muslims will realize that problem is inside not outside i will apologize for my posts too.



Politico said:


> hes a baniya hindu troll who live in calcutta and like 2 believe he is pakistani
> 
> i am trolling u imran khan


banya ? @GURU DUTT ye dekh is bhai ne mujhy tera family member bana diya

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## Mrc

Suspect family attorney : 

SUSPECT NEVER TRAVELLED TO PAKISTAN...
Travelled to saudia twice...
His wife lived in riyadh from age of 17...with her family ... had pakistani passport offcourse since saudi dont give passports to immigrants...

He is also doubting official version of events

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## The Sandman

Imran Khan said:


> when Muslims will realize that problem is inside not outside


 true it's the Muslims who *also *gives bad image to Islam especially our mullahs Islam is perfect Muslims are not


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## I S I

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> i dint get your point sir kindly explain


I was surprised by your unbiased opinion on this, considering you're an Indian.


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## Umair Nawaz

Imran Khan said:


> its international Jewish conspiracy against Islamic pakistan and Muslims the guy is not Muslim and Islam is religion of peace







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1113724055304513





U idiot, get yr facts together first rather then believing in hindu propaganda.


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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> collectively working quite hard



I agree. The seeds got laid back in 1950s, watered in 1970s, fertilized in 1980s and consummated in 1990s.

You know my position by I now. I regard myself as belonging to what people often call "Western civilization" and stand by secular values. I believe being "Western" is not in any way conflict with my origins. Indeed the term "Western" in fact is not anymore about the geographic west. Japan is equally Western.

I am utterly opposed to the Islamist's who have done more damage to countries like Pakistan then even India has. They are the enemies of Pakistan. They are my enemies. If they had it their way they would lynch me.

However I will utterly reject the fallacy that "terrorism" and "Islam" are two sides of the same coin. Those who peddle this line of thinking are opportunist or darn outright racist who use these tags to vent their inate bias. I see set of historical mistakes made by Muslim governments, the historical legacy of colonialism, the geopolitics of Cold War and oil all converging to where we are today.

This can be seen in how you will find almost zero terrorists from Turkey, Iran, Bosnia yet some countries seem to be surfeit with them, Pakistan being among the top leaders here. This tells me something terrible went wrong with these countries.

I also will defend my thinking robustly. I am a minority here. I get vilified by people from both camps, like @Solomon2 who come here just to beat the drums of opportunism to peddle their political agenda and on the other side the anti West Brigade many of who live in the West and are infected with the same disease as Syed Farook but in incubation phase. It is out of this stock that products like Syed Farook go live.

However I can tell you one thing as long as House of Saud continues to sponsor the Wahabi brain washing machine no amount of bombs is going to change anything. Adressing the symptoms never cures the proble. However you know and I know that House of Saud is safe as long as it has friends in high places.







And out of this death and suffering in California Christmas has come early for the Indian's on PDF judging from the ecstasy that is being displayed by them here. When they heard "Pakistan" it was "jingle bells, jingle bells".This just adds to my repulsion for them.



Mrc said:


> moved out of pakistan



I am afraid "*guilty as charged*", Reason being there is a "Pakistan" connection. Both people are of Pakistani origin with wife being adult when she migrated from *Pakistan* to USA. They are not unfortunately *Amish *of Dutch-German ancestry.

They are American-*Pakistani* and *Pakistani*-American with the tell tale slimy trail that a slug leaves behind. They are of Pak extraction and had been to *Saudia Arabia.*


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## Bharat_Bhakt

DesertFox97 said:


> true it's the Muslims who *also *gives bad image to Islam especially our mullahs Islam is perfect Muslims are not


Totally in agreement with you Sir








I S I said:


> I was surprised by your unbiased opinion on this, considering you're an Indian.


are you saying all Indians are biased and all pakistanies are unbiased ? even five fingers in your hand are not same .


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## Viper0011.

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Are you sure you can bear hearing the truthful answers to the questions you ask, Sir? Many here would not be able to tolerate them.



I would rather have people upset, then innocents getting killed with this crazy mentality that we witnessed again two days ago in California. So please, if you have some insight into this mental set, do share with us. People need to learn to be tolerant, civil and respect opinions and knowledge, even if it contradicts their own mindset. 

If such tolerance existed a couple of decades ago in the Muslim world, you'd see little to no terrorism today. One of the main factors IMO is the intolerance issue, and somehow, it runs so deep that it turns people into hate machines, who then can kill innocent civilians. I've observed this about Muslim countries and now its starting to take place in India too with regards to Hindu nationalists, but they've never heart anyone else outside of India, so that's not the focus here.

My question is on Islam and this radicalization, and how it happens so fukking quickly that people forget their life experiences in a country like the US, their success, jobs, their future success in terms of a better future for their kids, education, etc, etc, and some how a two week trip to some country, turns people into murder machines. 

So please share your knowledge with us, as to what you think may be the cause or reasoning behind it. And how can this be changed, so it doesn't end up hurting innocents, and it doesn't also make Muslims look like a bunch of yahoo's with no respect for humanity, while we hear "Islam is a peaceful religion"!!!!! Do you think with the chain of events that has happened, anyone believes that?


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## I S I

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> Totally in agreement with you Sir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> are you saying all Indians are biased and all pakistanies are unbiased ? even five fingers in your hand are not same .


I was just talking about general Indian population on PDF..


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## Imran Khan

Umair Nawaz said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1113724055304513
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U idiot, get yr facts together first rather then believing in hindu propaganda.


umair bro this is last time you quoted me please not again i do not want to talk to you .
thanks


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## Bharat_Bhakt

I S I said:


> I was just talking about general Indian population on PDF..


its not about indians or pakistanies think on social media problem is with muslims living in any non muslim majority nations and you know what im talking about and thats the main cause of this extreme reaction by this guy


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## nvKyleBrown

Viper0011. said:


> I went to see my doctor today, who is an Indian Muslim. The guy was VERY concerned about Muslim population and the effect on their children due to these events, and any hate crimes, etc.



Yeah, this really torques me as much as the killings themselves. Some Muslim kills a bunch of people, and the Muslim community isn't thinking "how did this happen", it's "well, the most important thing is how this might have a negative impact on the Muslim community". Yep, dead non-Muslims not as important as Muslims being called names. That'll cause some resentment.

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## Umair Nawaz

Imran Khan said:


> umair bro this is last time you quoted me please not again i do not want to talk to you .
> thanks


then stop writing rubbish.


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## gambit

nvKyleBrown said:


> Yeah, this really torques me as much as the killings themselves. Some Muslim kills a bunch of people, and the Muslim community isn't thinking "how did this happen", *it's "well, the most important thing is how this might have a negative impact on the Muslim community".* Yep, dead non-Muslims not as important as Muslims being called names. That'll cause some resentment.


And American gun laws...


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## Mrc

DesertFox97 said:


> No it's just u said *Islam is a religion of peace *in a sarcastic way so..... :/




He belings to a cult originating from a city in india starting with q


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## Areesh

Mythal said:


> First of all it is not because of Indian attempts to isolate Pakistan but because of the actions of Pakistani people.
> Secondly do you realize how big a thing 3 month wait time is?



It definitely has to do with failed Indian campaign to isolate Pakistan. Now when you have failed, you don't want to own it.

Secondly still Pakistanis are getting visas. Not a good enough achievement for India who wants a lot more after its global campaign.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Mrc said:


> Ok...
> An american born muslim shoots his work colleagues in US..how is it related to qadiyanis is beyond me....


What would your response be to someone drawing/painting an abusive caricature of the Prophet Muhammad on a giant billboard on Canal Road in Lahore?


Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You will find this story relevant, Sir:
> 
> Neighbors of San Bernardino shooters 'noticed them acting suspiciously' | Daily Mail Online
> 
> *Neighbors of husband and wife San Bernardino shooters 'noticed them acting suspiciously but did NOT report them for fear of racial profiling'*
> 
> *Syed Farook and wife Tashfeen Malik were 'receiving packages' and 'working at strange hours in their garage' according to their neighbors*
> *But neighbors feared reporting them in case it was merely racial profiling*


That is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard. So now people can only work in their garages during 'approved non-strange hours'? 

And receive no more than a specified number of 'packages' during any given time-period? Amazon is going to be very sad ...


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## Politico

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> Totally in agreement with you Sir
> 
> 
> 
> are you saying all Indians are biased and all pakistanies are unbiased ? even five fingers in your hand are not same .



i think he was saying that indian on pdf usually act stupid and immature. u prove that 2 me in another thread so ur indian identity confirmed


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## Mythal

Areesh said:


> It definitely has to do with failed Indian campaign to isolate Pakistan. Now when you have failed, you don't want to own it.
> 
> Secondly still Pakistanis are getting visas. Not a good enough achievement for India who wants a lot more after its global campaign.


Yes you must be right. Wasn't there a very public campaign by Indians to make the rest of the world deny Pakistanis visa. I am sure it was covered in all newspaper you read.


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## ito

Law enforcement seems to suggest that the wife radicalized the guy.

Pakistani wife radicalised California shooter, made bombs, says report


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Abingdonboy said:


> @Topic a truly crazy and mind-boggling attack based on the terrorists. I mean it is one thing to find a like minded induvidual online but for that person to be YOUR WIFE? I just can't understand this level of crazy whilst acting so normal. There must be a hell of a lot of sick people out there.
> 
> Bloody scum who have left their young child an orphan to grow up with everyone knowing the actions of her parents- she is unlikely to have a happy life. This is yet another level of evel on top of it all.


You have to consider the possibility that the 'marriage' was entered into solely for the purpose of getting an accomplice into the US under spouse/fiance rules, and the 'child' was conceived unintentionally or perhaps as part of a twisted attempt to 'replace' the potential loss of a son for Farooq's mother.

The amount of time Farooq spent abroad doesn't suggest enough time to become proficient at explosives, so the 'wife' was likely the individual assigned those tasks.

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## Politico

this gun crazy man and his wife seem 2 have some psycho issues. now they r muslim their psycho issues become problem of every muslim. all the idiots here saying muslims intolerant or hate non-muslim must remember that muslim nations was 4 many years refugee nations 2 jews and other prosecuted people by christians. now we become intolerant how when jews and christians living in turkey and iran etc and hindus and chinese living in many muslim asian land? we become angry at what happens when muslim is killed or attacked 4 no good reason. that is nature of our religion since we believe in brotherhood which even jews do. but islam dont say so and we muslims dont stand up together and say kill all non muslim or take a gun or explosive in western nations and kill everybody around u. if somebody does that whether he is muslim or not he is terrorist and not christian or muslim or jew. simple terrorist


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## ito

This event will boost Donald Trump's campaign for US presidency. He will use this event to polarize US elections.

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## Mrc

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> What would your response be to someone drawing/painting an abusive caricature of the Prophet Muhammad on a giant billboard on Canal Road in Lahore?
> 
> That is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard. So now people can only work in their garages during 'approved non-strange hours'?
> 
> And receive no more than a specified number of 'packages' during any given time-period? Amazon is going to be very sad ...




Its pathetic the extent you guys go to propogate your qadiyani agenda....

No respect for fallen...
Not even on topic..

I am reporting this post


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## Tridibans

Areesh said:


> It definitely has to do with failed Indian campaign to isolate Pakistan. Now when you have failed, you don't want to own it.
> 
> Secondly still Pakistanis are getting visas. Not a good enough achievement for India who wants a lot more after its global campaign.



Wow... even on a thread which is about a Pakistani carrying out perhaps the worst act of terrorism after 9/11 on US soil (even the Boston bomber was a pakistani), you bring in India and what all are wrong with indians..... even after 1000000 of racist things that you can come up with to address us, atleast we dont go on killing people on the streets of Paris or New york or Sydney in the name of 'Bhagwaan'...@ranjeet @Mike_Brando

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## Dubious

*US gun crime in 2015*
*Figures up to 3 December*
353

Mass shootings


62 shootings at schools


12,223 people killed in gun incidents


24,722 people injured in gun incidents

Source: Shooting tracker, Gun Violence Archive












San Bernardino shooting: Statistics behind US gun violence - BBC News



"The San Bernardino shooting is America's 1,044th mass shooting in 1,066 days" (at _Vox_) and "The San Bernardino shooting is the second mass shooting today and the 355th this year" 














FBI active shooter statistics Photograph: FBI






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Increasingly frequent mass shootings. Photograph: Mother Jones




US mass shootings becoming more frequent – and more deadly | US news | The Guardian

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## ito

San Bernardino shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS - CNN.com

So there is ISIS link after all.


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## Mrc

ito said:


> San Bernardino shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS - CNN.com
> 
> So there is ISIS link after all.




Isis inspired lone wolf with grudge against colleagues with little outside help

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Mrc said:


> Its pathetic the extent you guys go to propogate your qadiyani agenda....
> 
> No respect for fallen...
> Not even on topic..
> 
> I am reporting this post


I'm pointing out the connection between the intolerance and support for violence that is considered 'acceptable' by many Muslims when 'insults to the Prophet Muhammad and Ahmadis' and the justification for violence in situation such as this attack,

If you're done reporting my post, I'll ask the question again, what would your response be to someone painting/drawing an abusive caricature of the Prophet Muhammad on a billboard on Canal Road in Lahore?


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## Mrc

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> If you're done reporting my post, I'll ask the question again, what would your response be to someone painting/drawing an abusive caricature of the Prophet Muhammad on a billboard on Canal Road in Lahore?




Report it to police as we have laws against that....
I think u just justified existence of blasphemy law and law declaring qadiyanis as non muslims

Yeah done reporting also


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## Abingdonboy

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> You have to consider the possibility that the 'marriage' was entered into solely for the purpose of getting an accomplice into the US under spouse/fiance rules, and the 'child' was conceived unintentionally or perhaps as part of a twisted attempt to 'replace' the potential loss of a son for Farooq's mother.
> 
> The amount of time Farooq spent abroad doesn't suggest enough time to become proficient at explosives, so the 'wife' was likely the individual assigned those tasks.


Apparently she had pledged alligence to ISIS's leader (from NYT).


So the US has now been targetted by a sleeper cell of ISIS on its home soil?

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## Imran Khan

Umair Nawaz said:


> then stop writing rubbish.


ignore me please or put me in ignore list .

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## Umair Nawaz

Imran Khan said:


> ignore me please or put me in ignore list .


sohnio ay tay ziadity ha.

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## Imran Khan

Umair Nawaz said:


> sohnio ay tay ziadity ha.


yaar main ap se sach main behis nhi kerna chahta kiyoo ke mujhy pata hai iska end kya ho ga is liye request hai .

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## Zibago

Imran Khan said:


> ignore me please or put me in ignore list .





Umair Nawaz said:


> sohnio ay tay ziadity ha.


What is this mini war between you two about?

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## Imran Khan

Zibago said:


> What is this mini war between you two about?


war bary logoo ki hoti hai bhai ne mujhy idiot kaha badly main sirf not to quote manga hai .

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## JonAsad

Imran Khan said:


> war bary logoo ki hoti hai bhai ne mujhy idiot kaha badly main sirf not to quote manga hai .


Umair nay imran ka emotional hatiachar kia hai- Umair has to pay - @Umair Nawaz

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## Imran Khan

JonAsad said:


> Umair nay imran ka emotional hatiachar kia hai- Umair has to pay - @Umair Nawaz


tu apna hathiyar le ker a gya darmiyaan main bhai

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Mrc said:


> Report it to police as we have laws against that....


Why do we have laws against cartoons/caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad or Ahmadis practicing their religion freely? Do you not see how such laws and attitudes stifle free speech and spread prejudice and bigotry in society?

Lawyers, former justices and educated members of society were celebrating and supporting Qadri for murdering Salman Taseer - do you not see how those actions suggest that the prevailing attitudes towards Blasphemy and Ahmadi's have spread a culture of hate and justification for violence and terrorism?


> I think u just justified existence of blasphemy law and law declaring qadiyanis as non muslims


How so?

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## JonAsad

Imran Khan said:


> tu apna hathiyar le ker a gya darmiyaan main bhai


You are asking from umair what pmln asking from pti- to leave them alone- not gona happen


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## Umair Nawaz

@Imran Khan saain, Indian pree par yakeen na kia karain when it comes to matters of Pakistan. I have shared a video with u in which u can see he had visited saudia arabia many times and even came with a wife from there (his second marriage)

It hasnt got anything to do with us nor did someone found his passport to be pakistan when the man himself was a american citizen who is born n raised there.


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## Imran Khan

JonAsad said:


> You are asking from umair what pmln asking from pti- to leave them alone- not gona happen


ye avatar tum ne kis ke kehny per lagaya hai ? bhai main ne already bhut pangy liye ab main sakoon se jeena chahta hoon . or pakistani members se to argument kerna hi nhi chahta .


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Abingdonboy said:


> Apparently she had pledged alligence to ISIS's leader (from NYT).
> 
> 
> So the US has now been targetted by a sleeper cell of ISIS on its home soil?


No group has come out to claim responsibility, so I doubt this was coordinated by ISIS or AQ. The CNN link mentioned 'self-radicalization', which appears the most likely explanation.

What continues to boggle the mind is how 2 educated and seemingly 'well established' individuals can somehow justify wanton violence and murder.


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## F-22Raptor

The pictures that had been posted here previously were actually those of the shooters brother. The brother, Syed Raheel Farook, is a decorated US Navy veteran.

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## Mr.Nair

*Incident is unfortunate and it will be more and more difficult for many pakistani's to get visa in western countries.*

@Vedicity @Atanz @Akheilos @Umair Nawaz

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## Super Falcon

Another CIA heist


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## Styx

and now it turns out there might be an ISIS connection...


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## surya kiran

US shooting: Attacker pledged allegiance to ISIS, officials say


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## Mr.Nair

California Shooting Suspect Had Pakistan Passport: Officials


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## Mrc

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Why do we have laws against cartoons/caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad or Ahmadis practicing their religion freely? Do you not see how such laws and attitudes stifle free speech and spread prejudice and bigotry in society?
> 
> Lawyers, former justices and educated members of society were celebrating and supporting Qadri for murdering Salman Taseer - do you not see how those actions suggest that the prevailing attitudes towards Blasphemy and Ahmadi's have spread a culture of hate and justification for violence and terrorism?
> 
> How so?




We have these laws to protect feelings of 99% from tongues of 0.05% and families and selves of 0.05% from hurt feelings of 99%....

By the way please please please please .... and please explain that how pakistan's banning of qadiyani's right of blasphemy contributed to this lunatic picking up the gun and killing the innocents....
Please do, i am all ears....
But please stay relevant to thread


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## KAL-EL

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> What continues to boggle the mind is how 2 educated and seemingly 'well established' individuals can somehow justify wanton violence and murder.



Not to mention the fact that they left behind a six month old baby. Unless they were completely delusional, they had to know they weren't coming out of this alive and would be leaving that baby an orphan.

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## Solomon2

Atanz said:


> ...I can tell you one thing as long as House of Saud continues to sponsor the Wahabi brain washing machine no amount of bombs is going to change anything -


It's the government of Pakistan that lets that happen in Pakistan, Atanz. I don't see why they can't stop it.


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## Mr.Nair

San Bernardino Shooting -- Parents Divorced this Year ... Dad Spent Time in Pakistan (UPDATE) | TMZ.com


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## XenoEnsi-14

Zibago said:


> What is this mini war between you two about?


Brotherly love... Sibling rivalry most likely.


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## JonAsad

Imran Khan said:


> ye avatar tum ne kis ke kehny per lagaya hai ? bhai main ne already bhut pangy liye ab main sakoon se jeena chahta hoon . or pakistani members se to argument kerna hi nhi chahta .


Imran bhai ager Pakistani members say argument nai kerni to unk mulk ya mazhab k khilaf bayan na do- or pdf per aisi khawahishen zaib nai deti- ap bharat ratshit forum chalay jao- no Pakistani there-


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Mrc said:


> We have these laws to protect feelings of 99% from tongues of 0.05% and families and selves of 0.05% from hurt feelings of 99%....


Is this so called majority a bunch of hormonal adolescents incapable of controlling their 'hurt feelings'? Do you have any idea how ridiculous this justification sounds?


> By the way please please please please .... and please explain that how pakistan's banning of qadiyani's right of blasphemy contributed to this lunatic picking up the gun and killing the innocents....


The banning, discrimination and intolerance towards Ahmadis legitimizes the persecution of certain classes of people. When you let society think that persecution, intolerance and hate towards an entire community is justified merely because of their beliefs, you not only violate Islam's tenet of 'no compulsion in religion', you also dehumanize an entire community which in turn makes violence against that community acceptable and in turn then legitimizes violence against other targets, utilizing the same kind of twisted rationale.

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## Mrc

Mr.Nair said:


> San Bernardino Shooting -- Parents Divorced this Year ... Dad Spent Time in Pakistan (UPDATE) | TMZ.com



But its not the father who carried out shootings....
After divorce he went to his country of origin may be to live with extended family....
We dont know for now

None of family members are under suspicion according to FBI...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Mrc said:


> But its not the father who carried out shootings....
> After divorce he went to his country of origin may be to live with extended family....
> We dont know for now
> 
> None of family members are under suspicion according to FBI...


It's OK, he needs to get his annual perverted anti-Pakistan kick out of highlighting any and all possible terrorism connections to Pakistan.

It's part of the Indian narrative which has gone into hyper-drive under the blossoming bosom of their 56-DD Prime Minister.


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## Mrc

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Is this so called majority a bunch of hormonal adolescents incapable of controlling their 'hurt feelings'? Do you have any idea how ridiculous this justification sounds?
> 
> The banning, discrimination and intolerance towards Ahmadis legitimizes the persecution of certain classes of people. When you let society think that persecution, intolerance and hate towards an entire community is justified merely because of their beliefs, you not only violate Islam's tenet of 'no compulsion in religion', you also dehumanize an entire community which in turn makes violence against that community acceptable and in turn then legitimizes violence against other targets, utilizing the same kind of twisted rationale.




Dude i have always said our libral fascists are as deluded to reality as our fundamentilist idiots are....just in entirely opposite direction

Why is sky blue?? I want to live under green sky....
Laws are made for realities not wishes of a small minority... and law actually protects the minority by providing a legal course to majority to vent anger....

Any how entirely completely irrelevant to current thread as lady seems to be pledging alliegence to isis.....
And isis has nothing against qadiyanis


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## KAL-EL

The landlord has let reporters and news cameras into the couples apartment. Currently watching live coverage of them all squeezing in a mad rush to go from room to room and looking over their papers and belongings.


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## Zibago

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Is this so called majority a bunch of hormonal adolescents incapable of controlling their 'hurt feelings'? Do you have any idea how ridiculous this justification sounds?
> 
> The banning, discrimination and intolerance towards Ahmadis legitimizes the persecution of certain classes of people. When you let society think that persecution, intolerance and hate towards an entire community is justified merely because of their beliefs, you not only violate Islam's tenet of 'no compulsion in religion', you also dehumanize an entire community which in turn makes violence against that community acceptable and in turn then legitimizes violence against other targets, utilizing the same kind of twisted rationale.


Bo hoo i am hurt lets break private property and kill somebody

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Mrc said:


> Dude i have always said our libral fascists are as deluded to reality as our fundamentilist idiots are....just in entirely opposite direction


There is nothing delusional in pointing out how absurd the justification (for morally repugnant laws like the Blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws) of 'hurt feelings' is. Please, try to open your mind and actually think about what the justification you're giving me. People don't want their 'feelings hurt' so instead they'll persecute, discriminate and dehumanize millions and stifle free speech?


> Why is sky blue?? I want to live under green sky....


Pakistan's sky is red with the blood and persecution of innocents under laws passed just so some insecure people don't have their 'feelings hurt'.


> Laws are made for realities not wishes of a small minority... and law actually protects the minority by providing a legal course to majority to vent anger....


The law discriminates, persecutes, spreads hate and intolerance and is completely un-Islamic when looked at in the light of various tenets of Islam that guarantee freedom of religion, equality and command the pursuit of knowledge.

When these morally repugnant and depraved laws are repealed, this so called majority will have to comply, or be treated like terrorists and gunned down by the State whose responsibility it is to ensure law and order. 


> Any how entirely completely irrelevant to current thread as lady seems to be pledging alliegence to isis.....
> And isis has nothing against qadiyanis


You just validated my argument in your comment below:
_*and law actually protects the minority by providing a legal course to majority to vent anger....*_​You're saying that many Muslims have become so intolerant and prejudiced that they would carry out violence/terrorism against Ahmadis and those drawing cartoons of the Prophet if there were no Blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws (even though the mobs decide to carry out wanton violence and terrorism any way in Pakistan). This is precisely the kind of attitude that then morphs into justifying terrorism such as that in Paris or San Benrnardino.

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## Mrc

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> There is nothing delusional in pointing out how absurd the justification (for morally repugnant laws like the Blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws) of 'hurt feelings' is. Please, try to open your mind and actually think about what the justification you're giving me. People don't want their 'feelings hurt' so instead they'll persecute, discriminate and dehumanize millions and stifle free speech?
> 
> Pakistan's sky is red with the blood and persecution of innocents under laws passed just so some insecure people don't have their 'feelings hurt'.
> 
> The law discriminates, persecutes, spreads hate and intolerance and is completely un-Islamic when looked at in the light of various tenets of Islam that guarantee freedom of religion, equality and command the pursuit of knowledge.
> 
> When these morally repugnant and depraved laws are repealed, this so called majority will have to comply, or be treated like terrorists and gunned down by the State whose responsibility it is to ensure law and order.
> 
> You just validated my argument in your comment below:
> _*and law actually protects the minority by providing a legal course to majority to vent anger....*_​You're saying that many Muslims have become so intolerant and prejudiced that they would carry out violence/terrorism against Ahmadis and those drawing cartoons of the Prophet if there were no Blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws (even though the mobs decide to carry out wanton violence and terrorism any way in Pakistan). This is precisely the kind of attitude that then morphs into justifying terrorism such as that in Paris or San Benrnardino.




Israel has laws against denial of holocost....
Law does not name qadiyanis....abd no other sect of islam or other respected religious minority has any objection to it.....

Most of your post is delusional psycotic rants .....


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## Imran Khan

JonAsad said:


> Imran bhai ager Pakistani members say argument nai kerni to unk mulk ya mazhab k khilaf bayan na do- or pdf per aisi khawahishen zaib nai deti- ap bharat ratshit forum chalay jao- no Pakistani there-


wahan koi kuch boly to kehty hain pakistan chaly jao
yahan koi kuch boly to indian forum per chaly jao

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Mrc said:


> Israel has laws against denial of holocost....


Why should we use a bad example to justify even worse laws?


> Law does not name qadiyanis....abd no other sect of islam or other respected religious minority has any objection to it.....


It doesn't matter if no other sect or minority has no objections - the law is outright discrimination and intolerance, and the justification for it is ridiculous.


> Most of your post is delusional psycotic rants .....


Why, because I highlighted the fact that you're essentially threatening those who do not agree with your beliefs with violence under the pretext that 'the majority will not be able to tolerate their poor feelings getting hurt in the absence of these laws and will therefore attack, terrorize and massacre innocents from other communities'?

These attitudes in Islam justify violence and terrorism - the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie is support for terrorism and murder, the Fatwa against liberal bloggers is support for terrorism and murder, the support we saw for Qadri is support for terrorism and murder. The mobs that terrorize and massacre innocents under the garb of blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi sentiment are being incited under the same pretexts that justify the need for these laws.

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## Mrc

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Why should we use a bad example to justify even worse laws?
> 
> It doesn't matter if no other sect or minority has no objections - the law is outright discrimination and intolerance, and the justification for it is ridiculous.
> 
> Why, because I highlighted the fact that you're essentially threatening those who do not agree with your beliefs with violence under the pretext that 'the majority will not be able to tolerate their poor feelings getting hurt in the absence of these laws and will therefore attack, terrorize and massacre innocents from other communities'?
> 
> These attitudes in Islam justify violence and terrorism - the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie is support for terrorism and murder, the Fatwa against liberal bloggers is support for terrorism and murder, the support we saw for Qadri is support for terrorism and murder. The mobs that terrorize and massacre innocents under the garb of blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi sentiment are being incited under the same pretexts that justify the need for these laws.




The fact that no other religion or sect has any objection means this particular sect wants a right to do blasphemy....

Every country in REAL world have sensitivities...
denying holocast law is a sensible law... no body should have right to hurt others feeling...

Try slaughtering a cow in india or eating beef in REAL WORLD and see what happens ...by the way there is no law in india against it...

This thread is not about how your right to blasphemy has been taken away in pakistan...by the way


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## Areesh

Tridibans said:


> Wow... even on a thread which is about a Pakistani carrying out perhaps the worst act of terrorism after 9/11 on US soil (even the Boston bomber was a pakistani), you bring in India and what all are wrong with indians..... even after 1000000 of racist things that you can come up with to address us, atleast we dont go on killing people on the streets of Paris or New york or Sydney in the name of 'Bhagwaan'...@ranjeet @Mike_Brando



If Indians weren't back to their cheap self again and weren't using blood of 14 American citizens to vent out their usual frustration against Pakistan then I wouldn't have even mentioned Indians in my posts.

You Indians need to be less cheap and low life and I can assure you that I won't mention you and your country on this thread.

As for Boston bomber I know you Indians collectedly are ignorant fools but boston bomber was not a Pakistani. Kyrgyzstan is not in Pakistan as far as I know.

Boston Marathon bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## VCheng

KAL-EL said:


> The landlord has let reporters and news cameras into the couples apartment. Currently watching live coverage of them all squeezing in a mad rush to go from room to room and looking over their papers and belongings.



Does that mean police and FBI have cleared the apartment after processing it?



Viper0011. said:


> I would rather have people upset, then innocents getting killed with this crazy mentality that we witnessed again two days ago in California. So please, if you have some insight into this mental set, do share with us. People need to learn to be tolerant, civil and respect opinions and knowledge, even if it contradicts their own mindset.
> 
> If such tolerance existed a couple of decades ago in the Muslim world, you'd see little to no terrorism today. One of the main factors IMO is the intolerance issue, and somehow, it runs so deep that it turns people into hate machines, who then can kill innocent civilians. I've observed this about Muslim countries and now its starting to take place in India too with regards to Hindu nationalists, but they've never heart anyone else outside of India, so that's not the focus here.
> 
> My question is on Islam and this radicalization, and how it happens so fukking quickly that people forget their life experiences in a country like the US, their success, jobs, their future success in terms of a better future for their kids, education, etc, etc, and some how a two week trip to some country, turns people into murder machines.
> 
> So please share your knowledge with us, as to what you think may be the cause or reasoning behind it. And how can this be changed, so it doesn't end up hurting innocents, and it doesn't also make Muslims look like a bunch of yahoo's with no respect for humanity, while we hear "Islam is a peaceful religion"!!!!! Do you think with the chain of events that has happened, anyone believes that?



This discussion, as I have said before, needs to wait until the investigation is complete, Sir.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard. So now people can only work in their garages during 'approved non-strange hours'?
> 
> And receive no more than a specified number of 'packages' during any given time-period? Amazon is going to be very sad ...



Neighbors know their area the best. That is why there is the "See something, Say something" program.


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## nForce

Mrc said:


> Israel has laws against denial of holocost....
> Law does not name qadiyanis....abd no other sect of islam or other respected religious minority has any objection to it.....
> 
> Most of your post is delusional psycotic rants .....



In case you did not know, there are 20+ nations which have laws against holocaust denials. That part caught my attention during a quick sweep.


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## Mrc

nForce said:


> In case you did not know, there are 20+ nations which have laws against holocaust denials. That part caught my attention during a quick sweep.




I know... i am citizen of one and also of pakistan


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## nForce

Mrc said:


> I know... i am citizen of one


Interesting. Which one ?


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## KAL-EL

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Does that mean police and FBI have cleared the apartment after processing it?



Apparently the landlord got permission to let people in. So I'm assuming so.

The whole thing looked so surreal. dozens and dozens of people cramming into the apt looking through their documents, books, baby clothing and toys. Even looking through their refrigerator. Lots photos too. They also showed a few Qorans and a prayer rug too.

Wow.. they even had their social security cards laid out to see. wtf?!?

I'm a bit shocked that anyone would be allowed in only just a few days after the crime.


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## VCheng

KAL-EL said:


> Apparently the landlord got permission to let people in. So I'm assuming so.
> 
> The whole thing looked so surreal. dozens and dozens of people cramming into the apt looking through their documents, books, baby clothing and toys. Even looking through their refrigerator. Lots photos too. They also showed a few Qorans and the prayer rug too.
> 
> Wow.. they even had their social security cards laid out to see. wtf?!?
> 
> I'm a bit shocked that anyone would be allowed in only just a few days after the crime.



All the relevant evidence must have been carried away in that case. It also means that the FBI has all the information they need to complete their report.


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## KAL-EL

Landlord: Media Forced Their Way Into San Bernardino Terrorists' Apartment - Breitbart

Now the landlord apparently says the media forced their way into the apartment. He it seems profited some though.

As he supposedly got paid $1000 to let one news crew in early. he comes off a bit shady


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## VCheng

KAL-EL said:


> Landlord: Media Forced Their Way Into San Bernardino Terrorists' Apartment - Breitbart
> 
> Now the landlord apparently says the media forced their way into the apartment.



That makes more sense.

Some criminal charges may be needed here.


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## Solomon2

Atanz said:


> ...I will utterly reject the fallacy that "terrorism" and "Islam" are two sides of the same coin. Those who peddle this line of thinking are opportunist or darn outright racist -


Look, Atanz, you've already admitted your ignorance about many things. How can I be labeled "opportunist" when my principles are consistent? How is condemning criminality "racist"?

Have you considered I may simply know what I'm writing about?

Religion is what people make of it. If you let others speak and do for you then you're accepting them as your representatives. And vocal condemnations aren't sufficient. You actually have to make wrongdoing a crime and make a point of prosecuting its perpetrators.

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## IndoUS

Well there landlord is going to get his *** sued if he didn't have permission by the police since it is still an active investigation.


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## KAL-EL

Video of of the media frenzy entering and rifling through the apartment

Media Rush Into Shooting Suspects' Home [VIDEO] | The Daily Caller


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## JonAsad

Imran Khan said:


> wahan koi kuch boly to kehty hain pakistan chaly jao
> yahan koi kuch boly to indian forum per chaly jao


Bolo bhai jitna bolna hai kon mana ker reha hai apko- per ap kun mana ker rehay ho Pakistanis ko k apko quote na kerein? Yh khula tazad nai?


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## Falcon29

KAL-EL said:


> Video of of the media frenzy entering and rifling through the apartment
> 
> Media Rush Into Shooting Suspects' Home [VIDEO] | The Daily Caller



How embarrassing and childish, no materials will explain any motive. If someone is suicidal and has thoughts in his head that's all there is needed to drive one into acts of violence.


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## KAL-EL

Falcon29 said:


> How embarrassing and childish, no materials will explain any motive. If someone is suicidal and has thoughts in his head that's all there is needed to drive one into acts of violence.



I just happened to have MSNBC on when it happened live. I almost couldn't believe what I was watching. Just seemed highly improper and I agree, any materials there now won't explain their motivations.

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## VCheng

KAL-EL said:


> I just happened to have MSNBC on when it happened live. I almost couldn't believe what I was watching. Just seemed highly improper and I agree, any materials there now won't explain their motivations.



The FBI has formally declared this massacre as an act of terrorism.


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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The FBI has formally declared this massacre as an act of terrorism.


BREAKING : – California Shooter Girl Tashfeen Has Links With Lal Masjid

An Obama advisor has a meeting with Nawaz Sharif regarding this terrorist act.


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> BREAKING : – California Shooter Girl Tashfeen Has Links With Lal Masjid
> 
> An Obama advisor has a meeting with Nawaz Sharif regarding this terrorist act.



Many more details will soon be made known about this act of terrorism. This is serious.


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## Maler

Maulana Aziz and Lal Masjid comes into the picture!!!!!!


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## Yaduveer

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Many more details will soon be made known about this act of terrorism. This is serious.



This lal masjid angle can turn the case in a different direction.


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## VCheng

Yaduveer said:


> This lal masjid angle can turn the case in a different direction.



All angles will be explored to the fullest extent, as they should be.


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## Yaduveer

San Bernardino shootings investigated as terrorism - FBI - BBC News


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## Mirza Jatt

It was a matter of time before it was declared as an act of terrorism.... we all knew it from the very first description of the incident. RIP to the dead.


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## VCheng

Mirza Jatt said:


> It was a matter of time before it was declared as an act of terrorism.... we all knew it from the very first description of the incident. RIP to the dead.



It is best to proceed step by step with due process without jumping to any conclusions made prematurely.


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## Mrc

nForce said:


> Interesting. Which one ?




Not israel


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## Mrc

If tashfeen had contact with lal masjid; than maulana burqa shud be skinned alive.....
If not....we shud do it any way


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## A.M.

Yaduveer said:


> BREAKING : – California Shooter Girl Tashfeen Has Links With Lal Masjid
> 
> An Obama advisor has a meeting with Nawaz Sharif regarding this terrorist act.


Very nice, Pakistan earned this.

The fact that lal masjid and his imam are still standing is mind boggling.


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## JonAsad

Amrika should do abottabad on islamabad and take this burqa maulana maloon abdul aziz- then drop him at sea-


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## Mrc

JonAsad said:


> Amrika should do abottabad on islamabad and take this burqa maulana maloon abdul aziz- then drop him at sea-



Well if he is behind this than they have every right....
But i m sure nawaz sharif has enough capacity to do so..does he not??


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## Mirza Jatt

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It is best to proceed step by step with due process without jumping to any conclusions made prematurely.



No one came to conclusion and neither did I declare it earlier. But cant deny it that we all knew it in somewhere our hearts what it was.


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## VCheng

Mirza Jatt said:


> No one came to conclusion and neither did I declare it earlier. But cant deny it that we all knew it in somewhere our hearts what it was.



Yes, thank you for that, because there will be lots of opportunity for real deep soul-searching for all of us in the coming days due to this incident.


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## Post Colonnial

And so the seemingly unendable jihadi terrorism goes on and on. The woman from Pakistan managed to hook a guy in Mecca during haj and ended up converting him to be a jihadi nut as well. 

I think I am revising my stratification of the muslim community as follows: 80% have no clue what Islam is and what is going on; 5% want to destroy the world instead of admitting their failures; 7.5% secretly sympatize with the 5% but outwardly are with the 80%. And the last 7.5% is being actively courted by the 5%. 

Unless and until the 80% start really acting against the 5% nothing will change

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## VCheng

Post Colonnial said:


> And so the seemingly unendable jihadi terrorism goes on and on. The woman from Pakistan managed to hook a guy in Mecca during haj and ended up converting him to be a jihadi nut as well.
> 
> I think I am revising my stratification of the muslim community as follows: 80% have no clue what Islam is and what is going on; 5% want to destroy the world instead of admitting their failures; 7.5% secretly sympatize with the 5% but outwardly are with the 80%. And the last 7.5% is being actively courted by the 5%.
> 
> Unless and until the 80% start really acting against the 5% nothing will change



What is the basis for your estimated percentages?

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## nForce

Mrc said:


> Not israel



Someone give this a guy a cookie for _trying _to act smart.



Maler said:


> Maulana Aziz and Lal Masjid comes into the picture!!!!!!


Is there any connection ?

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## Mrc

American media going nuts speaking of saudi education system that how it may have converted tashfeen to a fundamentilist......

Saying nothing about their own education system which produced syed farook


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## shaheenmissile

Shouldn't Obama Ask US embassy in Pakistan about why and how they issued visa to Tashfeen Malik?
They charge exorbitant amount of fees and do extended checks on pretty much everything over many months before issuing visas. 
Even then if Tashfeen Malik slipped through there is a problem with US Embassy Islamabad. 
Best thing would be to shut down the visa section and investigate embassy staff and procedure, instead of blaming Pakistan. 
Because we are fed up.


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## Viper0011.

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> This discussion, as I have said before, needs to wait until the investigation is complete, Sir..



The investigation and a discussion on an online forum have nothing to do with each other. The investigation focuses on material facts, i.e. someone's physical actions that cause violation of the law or hazards to the public safety.

What I am asking the Muslim members on here is, to help people like me, and others understand what the hell happens in these little radicalizing trips, that in a few weeks, people totally transform and become maniacs who'd kill the same people they've been living among for decades!!!! This is a discussion that is about what happens in Pakistan, KSA and other places, that brain washes people's head so fast that it makes no sense to a normal brain. This may be a philosophical discussion in terms of people sharing their ideas on here, from Pakistan and other Muslim countries. I consider it "information and speculation", which has no effect on any investigation as none of us are involved with it I would imagine.

Last but not least, this isn't the first time I've seen or heard a story like this where someone took a trip to their original homeland they left decades ago, and came back all radicalized. So I am trying to understand what happens overseas in these trips which brain washes these people's entire head and life and everything they've lived with and for, for decades!!



shaheenmissile said:


> Shouldn't Obama Ask US embassy in Pakistan about why and how they issued visa to Tashfeen Malik?
> They charge exorbitant amount of fees and do extended checks on pretty much everything over many months before issuing visas.
> Even then if Tashfeen Malik slipped through there is a problem with US Embassy Islamabad.
> Best thing would be to shut down the visa section and investigate embassy staff and procedure, instead of blaming Pakistan.
> Because we are fed up.





WOW!!!! People like you, ALWAYS surprise me!!!! So its not a fault of the crazy mullah's and those insane religious "institutions" that "teach" such a violent version of Islam that a person can start to kill innocents and destroy their own little child's life by abandoning them to commit acts of terrorism!!!! But, somehow, its the American Embassy's fault??? WTF, really?

Is there a more insane version of shifting the blame from the responsible parties to the "US embassy" you can come up with????

Posts like yours make people think that Mr. Trump was right, and may be, the only solution is to end ALL visas and migration from Muslim countries to the US. I can't believe that during such big human tragedies, people like you don't want to point fingers at the insane religious mess that has caused the WOT and other conflicts over the last decade and a half (including thousands of people killed inside Pakistan by these terrorists, but you'd point fingers to places that have no relevance to the fact)!!

You are "fed up" with what? The freedom that crazy Mullahs enjoyed in that region for decades? And had so much strength to turn this entire region into a terrorism related mess for decades? If any corrective actions had been taken back in the 90's (when the US constantly told Pakistan that Talibans were NOT the strategic depth and that they would bite Pakistan and her culture and everything else), I think many of these terrorism type events, wouldn't have happened and many people (including people in the US and Pakistan), would be alive today!!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Neighbors know their area the best. That is why there is the "See something, Say something" program.


Working more hours than normal in your garage when you have a project to do isn't unusual, and neither is the frequency of package deliveries, depending upon the season or, going back to the garage again, when someone is working on a project and has supplies delivered to their home.

Your suggestion of how the 'See something, say something program' should have been used (working in the garage and frequency of packages) is ridiculous to say the least.


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## Hamartia Antidote

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Working more hours than normal in your garage when you have a project to do isn't unusual, and neither is the frequency of package deliveries, depending upon the season or, going back to the garage again, when someone is working on a project and has supplies delivered to their home.
> 
> Your suggestion of how the 'See something, say something program' should have been used (working in the garage and frequency of packages) is ridiculous to say the least.



I think they meant they were probably doing stuff at 1am or something. The guy did fix up old cars so that wouldn't be weird.


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## deckingraj

Viper0011. said:


> . So I am trying to understand what happens overseas in these trips which brain washes these people's entire head and life and everything they've lived with and for, for decades!!


Common sense says that it can't be one trip to homeland that brain wash these bigots...it is simply not possible...The anger has to be old and these mullahs provide them a medium to vent out that anger....I can't think of any other reason...Also these days it is very hard to differentiate between propaganda and real facts...Media is sold out and that fact is not helping either....On top of that there are many wars going on around the globe with lot of conflicting interests...a perfect recipe for ISIL and other pigs to keep growing....i am afraid this has to be a long and ugly fight....


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## kalu_miah

@Viper0011. you may want to look at this thread, it may answer some of your questions:

How to stop Islamic extremism: Global Fiqh Council (GFC)

The root of Islamic extremism starts with Wahabism/Salafism and the sponsors of this ideology, Saudi Kingdom, is being protected by the US. Unless the US and West decide to uproot this ideology from its root in Saudi Arabia and deny it any funding source, "Islamic" terrorism in some shape or form will continue.

Salafi movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
60 million Salafi's must be converted back to mainstream Sunni Islam. Salafism must be banned worldwide and this can be done by Muslim scholars using the concept I mentioned in GFC. Bombing and killing people like ISIS but doing nothing about the source in Gulf kingdoms will continue to be ineffective.

Not all Salafi/Wahabi's are terrorists, but almost all Muslim terrorists are Salafi's.

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## Bang Galore

*First Photo of Female San Bernardino Shooter Tashfeen Malik*

By Rhonda Schwartz
Brian Ross
JUSTIN FISHEL
Lee Ferran
Dec 4, 2015, 5:48 PM ET

 
 





Obtained by ABC News
Tashfeen Malik
Since news today that San Bernardino shooter Tashfeen Malik is said to have posted a pledge of allegiance to ISIS around the time she and her husband killed 14 people Wednesday, the world’s attention has shifted to the mysterious mother-turned-murderer.

Malik, a photograph of whom was obtained by ABC News, was born in Pakistan but moved to Saudi Arabia 25 years ago when she was about four years old. When she was older, she likely moved back and forth between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, according to a source close to the Saudi Arabian government.

In 2007, she returned to Pakistan to study at Bahuddin Zakri University in Multan and stayed until 2012, according to a Pakistani intelligence official. She was said to be a brilliant student and was not known to have religious or political affiliation while there.

Malik encountered Syed Rizwan Farook, an American of Pakistani origin born in Chicago, on a dating website, an attorney for Farook’s family told reporters today. U.S. officials said Farook could have met Malik or her family in Saudi Arabia during a trip there in the fall of 2013. After another trip in July 2014, Farook returned to the U.S. with Malik in tow. The couple was married the next month.

Malik came to the U.S. on what is known as a “fiancé” visa, which allows an American fiancé to petition for his or her partner’s temporary entry before marriage. For the visa application, the address she listed in her Pakistani hometown, ABC News discovered today, does not exist. Malik received a her Green Card this summer, U.S. officials said.

Six months ago, the couple had a baby daughter and named her according to a naming convention more common to Arab families, rather than in the typical Pakistani manner.

How Malik purportedly became radicalized enough to post the alleged pledge of allegiance to ISIS and help kill more than a dozen people in a quiet California town is still a mystery.

The official close to the Saudi Arabian government said that Saudi intelligence officials did not have her on any of their watch lists and she did not appear to have any link to extremists in the region. Neither Malik or Farook were on the FBI’s radar in the U.S., officials said.

FBI Special Agent David Bowdich said today it’s also unclear who in the relationship led the other down the violent path.

“I don’t know the answer, whether she influenced him or not. Being a husband myself, we’re all influenced to an extent. But I don’t know the answer,” he said.

FBI Director James Comey said the Bureau is still investigating whether ISIS inspired the attack, but said there is “no indication” they were part of a larger network. No other suspects are being sought, though Bowdich didn’t rule out the potential for later arrests.

Today lawyers for the Farook family cast doubt on the reports of the ISIS pledge and said that there hasn’t been any real evidence that the couple has any “extremist tendencies.”

“None of the family knew of him as being extreme, aggressive or having any extreme religious views,” one of the attorneys said.

The other noted that Malik was very soft-spoken and conservative -- so much that Farook's brothers never saw her face, due to the full burqa she always wore in public.

As the FBI continues to investigate, Nada Bakos, a former CIA analyst, told ABC News she would not be surprised if Malik had been ISIS-inspired. “Terrorism is not gender-specific,” she said.

A recent report by George Washington University’s Center for Cyber and Homeland Security said that of the 71 individuals arrested in the U.S. since March 2014 with purported ties to ISIS, 10 were female.

Bakos, whose work with the CIA concentrated on al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), the precursor to ISIS, told ABC News she often tracked female extremists for the Agency and noted that AQI infamously used a female suicide bomber in a failed suicide attack in Jordan in 2005 – the woman had hidden a bomb under her dress, but it failed to detonate.

“Men don’t have a monopoly on terrorism or conducting violent acts,” she said. “At this point, in the evolution of terrorism, it wouldn’t be surprising to see a woman take an operational role.”

_This report has been updated with new information from the Farook family attorney about how Malik and Farook met._

_What We Know About Female San Bernardino Shooter Tashfeen Malik - ABC News_

@jaunty_, _@ito




















First picture of terrorist Tashfeen Malik who pledged allegiance to ISIS before killing 14 in party attack with radicalized American husband - and who was so devout her in-laws had never seen her face | Daily Mail Online

San Bernardino shooter Tashfeen Malik pledged allegiance to ISIS, passed DHS screening - reports — RT USA

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## illusion8

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Yes, thank you for that, because there will be lots of opportunity for real deep soul-searching for all of us in the coming days due to this incident.



This isn't going to be the first and isn't going to be the last - there are thousands of sleeper cells / dormant terrorists in most countries working silently and planning innovative attacks.

Europe just got deluged with a few thousands fresh recruits apart from the many that they already had.


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## Bang Galore

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> You have to consider the possibility that the 'marriage' was entered into solely for the purpose of getting an accomplice into the US under spouse/fiance rules,_* and the 'child' was conceived unintentionally or perhaps as part of a twisted attempt to 'replace' the potential loss of a son for Farooq's mother.*_
> 
> The amount of time Farooq spent abroad doesn't suggest enough time to become proficient at explosives, so the 'wife' was likely the individual assigned those tasks.



That's some seriously messed up stuff......


----------



## Maira La

kalu_miah said:


> @Viper0011. you may want to look at this thread, it may answer some of your questions:
> 
> How to stop Islamic extremism: Global Fiqh Council (GFC)
> 
> The root of Islamic extremism starts with Wahabism/Salafism and the sponsors of this ideology, Saudi Kingdom, is being protected by the US. Unless the US and West decide to uproot this ideology from its root in Saudi Arabia and deny it any funding source, "Islamic" terrorism in some shape or form will continue.
> 
> Bombing and killing people like ISIS but doing nothing about the source in Gulf kingdoms will continue to be ineffective.
> 
> Not all Salafi/Wahabi's are terrorists, but almost all Muslim terrorists are Salafi's.



What happened kalu_miah? Not on good terms with your Saudi brothers anymore?

@JUBA @Saif al-Arab You've just lost a well wisher.

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## VCheng

Viper0011. said:


> ..........
> 
> What I am asking the Muslim members on here is, to help people like me, and others understand what the hell happens in these little radicalizing trips, that in a few weeks, people totally transform and become maniacs who'd kill the same people they've been living among for decades!!!! This is a discussion that is about what happens in Pakistan, KSA and other places, that brain washes people's head so fast that it makes no sense to a normal brain. ..........



The answer to your questions is clear but unpalatable. The radicalized maniacs are created by the same religious ideology that the majority acquiesces to.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Working more hours than normal in your garage when you have a project to do isn't unusual, and neither is the frequency of package deliveries, depending upon the season or, going back to the garage again, when someone is working on a project and has supplies delivered to their home.
> 
> Your suggestion of how the 'See something, say something program' should have been used (working in the garage and frequency of packages) is ridiculous to say the least.



Ridiculous or good civic sense? I will stand by my stance here.



illusion8 said:


> This isn't going to be the first and isn't going to be the last - there are thousands of sleeper cells / dormant terrorists in most countries working silently and planning innovative attacks.
> 
> Europe just got deluged with a few thousands fresh recruits apart from the many that they already had.



There will be no more than a handful of such terrorists presently in USA. Europe is different in this regard.



Bang Galore said:


> That's some seriously messed up stuff......



It is also an indication how good screening has become that such desperate measures were taken, and even these will now be stopped with the lessons learned from this murderous couple.

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## iPhone

What's this Lal Masjid angle being brought it now?

The guy's family did press conference and shifted the entire blame onto the girl. I think they were both radicalized.


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Solomon2 said:


> It's extremely dishonest of you to construct a scenario unsupported by the complete set of known facts, then use that to "prove" your contention.
> 
> Yes, I know that for Pakistanis the truth-is-stuff-you-pick-out-from-a-cafeteria-line approach is deemed sufficient, but that's an indication of the depth of corruption in Pakistani society.



Read the article it makes no mention of any religious motives. 

I know in the Talmud it tells you that you can lie and cheat the goyam, but I'm finding it difficult to accept how two people can MURDER 14 INNOCENT people. It doesn't make sense! This is wrong and tragic for the families of the victims. Total barbarism. No other word for it!


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## Tridibans

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> It's OK, he needs to get his annual perverted anti-Pakistan kick out of highlighting any and all possible terrorism connections to Pakistan.
> 
> It's part of the Indian narrative which has gone into hyper-drive under the blossoming bosom of their 56-DD Prime Minister.



I still don't understand why you guys are after Indians ? Whatever be our shortcomings, we are not terrorists. Let alone bombing and shooting on the streets of Paris or Sydney or New York in the name of our Hindu gods. Last I heard, there are more Indians abroad than Pakistanis. SO why only Pakistanis get so easily radicalized and not the Hindutva/ RSS extremists whom you guys day in and out proclaim as terrorists?

If at all, 1 man was killed for eating beef andf all Hindus were bad. Whereas in the name of your religion, perhaps daily 1000 people are killed in Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, by Boko Haram/ ISIS and now the new trend.... well off Pakistanis/ Middle eastern killing random Europeans/ Americans.

Why don't Hindutva Indians staying in USA or Paris go on killing people?

Food for thought. But instead of correcting your mistakes, you people are after Indians.

Let it be. Soon the west would look upon you guys more suspiciously than ever before. While in the meantime, you people can keep on fighting with us Idnians.

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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> What's this Lal Masjid angle being brought it now?
> 
> The guy's family did press conference and shifted the entire blame onto the girl. I think they were both radicalized.



The wife was Mullah Burka's disciple.

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Bang Galore said:


> Since news today that San Bernardino shooter Tashfeen Malik is said to have posted a pledge of allegiance to ISIS around the time she and her husband killed 14 people Wednesday, the world’s attention has shifted to the mysterious mother-turned-murderer.



Why are people so easily led by this fake caliph? 120+ Islamic Scholars have given a fatwa against his UNISLAMIC state. It is a CULT, not a state! People read through the fatwa on EVERY point he has violated in ISLAMIC LAW!

Letter to Baghdadi - Open Letter to BaghdadiOpen Letter to Baghdadi

Please spread the word and lets stop this terrorism.


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## nvKyleBrown

Tridibans said:


> Wow... even on a thread which is about a Pakistani carrying out perhaps the worst act of terrorism after 9/11 on US soil (even the Boston bomber was a pakistani), you bring in India and what all are wrong with indians..... even after 1000000 of racist things that you can come up with to address us, atleast we dont go on killing people on the streets of Paris or New york or Sydney in the name of 'Bhagwaan'...@ranjeet @Mike_Brando



Boston bombers were Chechen.



IndoUS said:


> Well there landlord is going to get his *** sued if he didn't have permission by the police since it is still an active investigation.



The police could not sue you - that would be civil matter. They could charge him with interfering with an investigation, or disturbing a crime scene, or destruction of evidence, or the like - all crimes. But suing him would be out.


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## illusion8

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> There will be no more than a handful of such terrorists presently in USA. Europe is different in this regard.


.
You need just a handful for a terrorist attack...the one's highlighted are the one's who were successful in heir attack. ..One never knows how many terror attacks were prevented by the FBI /CIA and other anti terrorist agencies who work night and day to put terrorists out of commission..

You never know how many thousands of jihadis are in US secret prisons.

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## LaBong

Tridibans said:


> If at all, 1 man was killed for eating beef andf all Hindus were bad.


Generalisation is never fine, but we should welcome all criticism. Failure to identify and speak against the problem in it's early stage will land us in the same catch 22 situation Islam is today.

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## Styx

LaBong said:


> Generalisation is never fine, but we should welcome all criticism. Failure to identify and speak against the problem in it's early stage will land us in the same catch 22 situation Islam is today.


bullshit, quit looking for equivalency here, we will never end up like Islam.

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## LaBong

Geralt said:


> bullshit, quit looking for equivalency here, we will never end up like Islam.


No equivalence, just see a pattern among some of us which is prevalent among most Muslims.


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## Indika

Female attacker in San Bernardino had Pakistani passport, FBI says
Pakistan has invested so much in terrorism over long period of time it will never go out of focus. Pakistan and terrorists have only 6 degrees of separation.

Pakistan will always have the honor of being chief guest in any anti(?)-terrorist conference or usual suspect in any terrorist attack.

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## Dance

iPhone said:


> What's this Lal Masjid angle being brought it now?
> 
> The guy's family did press conference and shifted the entire blame onto the girl. I think they were both radicalized.



I agree. This guy is not some little kid that can be easily influenced or tricked. He's a 28 year old educated man who has lived all his life in America, he should have definitely known better

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## iPhone

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The wife was Mullah Burka's disciple.


Yeah, Pakistani press is talking about it. Let's see how reliable they are on this. But if this is true and the FBI really has reached out to Shahbaz and Nawaz Shrief about Burqa mullah then hopefully we can finally see that tumor being removed from Pakistan. 

Sad, though that it would take American deaths to fix a Pakistani problem.


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## Mrc

Pakistan has officially denied press reports of contact by US on this matter so far


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## CHD




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## Mrc

No meeting with US envoy over California shooter's links to Lal Masjid: PM House - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## ito

The whole episode says it is hard to identify a terrorist. Radicalization is much easier than thought. More importantly, many justify these actions and eulogize their 'sacrifices', which in turn will act as a catalyst for more such terrorist attacks.


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## Peaceful Civilian

RIP.....
Disgusting and inhuman people even they didn't spare disable persons.


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## pakdefender

As Pakistanis, who have experienced some worst form of violence and terrorism over the last decade, we condemn this act

Noteworthy is however the behaviour of the indians , this act has re-kindled their hope that america will come to india's aid against Pakistan and what is currently disappointing the indians is that the news bytes in US are all focusing on ISIS connection and not quite the Pakistani connection.

There are some details that not quite adding up , the "Facebook update" seems like the most bogus one , also removing the details that initially emerged about a religiously charged argument with a jewish colleague looks like an attempt to divert away the attention from the "trigger" event. 

But never the less it is in Pakistan's interest to investigate on our end the background , movement , links and motives of these individuals


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## VCheng

illusion8 said:


> .
> You need just a handful for a terrorist attack...the one's highlighted are the one's who were successful in heir attack. ..One never knows how many terror attacks were prevented by the FBI /CIA and other anti terrorist agencies who work night and day to put terrorists out of commission..
> 
> You never know how many thousands of jihadis are in US secret prisons.



A majority of the events have involved financing of terrorist operations overseas. Thus far, only a handful of attempts at terrorist attacks within the US have been foiled. There are no thousands of jihadis in secret prisons, both being figments of your imagination here. There are known sympathizers and pockets of extremists, but that is not confined to Islam either. The FBI tracks hundreds of such organizations and individuals.



iPhone said:


> Yeah, Pakistani press is talking about it. Let's see how reliable they are on this. But if this is true and the FBI really has reached out to Shahbaz and Nawaz Shrief about Burqa mullah then hopefully we can finally see that tumor being removed from Pakistan.
> 
> Sad, though that it would take American deaths to fix a Pakistani problem.



This tumor is so widely metastatic that it will not easy to cut out so simply this time.


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## pakdefender

Here is another detail that is raising questions







It's a bit unusual to see handcuffs on the dead body of an individual whom we were told died under a "hail of bullets" , also the larger pool of blood is on the right side and not directly under the body , was this person handcuffed , repositioned and shot again ?


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## Mrc

Body was definitely repositioned....
Whats with hand cuffs??.
Was he injured than arrested and than died?
Than why so much blood on right side of body?


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## Marxist

*Al Jazeera America Producer Complains After Media Shows Female Terrorist Without Burka*









Al Jazeera America Producer Complains After Media Shows Female Terrorist Without Burka - The Gateway Pundit

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## VCheng

Ah yes, the Denial Brigade is out in force this morning on this topic. 

Let's hear some juicy conspiracy theories now.

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## Mrc

My take is he collapsed where pool of blood is he was turned face handcuffed but he died before they can stop bleeding


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## illusion8

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> A majority of the events have involved financing of terrorist operations overseas. Thus far, only a handful of attempts at terrorist attacks within the US have been foiled. There are no thousands of jihadis in secret prisons, both being figments of your imagination here. There are known sympathizers and pockets of extremists, but that is not confined to Islam either. The FBI tracks hundreds of such organizations and individuals.
> 
> 
> 
> This tumor is so widely metastatic that it will not easy to cut out so simply this time.




LOL..American muslims aren't some special one's to be exempt and stay away from radicalization. .The agencies are quite active resulting in not many terrorist incidents.

"While it’s true fewer American Muslims are joining ISIS abroad, hold the applause. More are staying at home and plotting terrorist attacks here."
900 ‘homegrown’ ISIS cases being investigated in US: FBI | New York Post


*Over 60 isis affiliated terrorist attacks prevented by FBI last year alone.
*


> Three days after four marines and a sailor were killed by a gunman with Middle Eastern roots and a father who was once on the terrorism watch list, the chairman of the House homeland security committee heralded US successes against “over 60” would-be terrorist attacks by “Isis followers” in the last year.
> US missed Chattanooga attack but foiled 'over 60' Isis-linked plots: security chair | US news | The Guardian



The less number of terrorist attacks in the US is credited to the pro active work of the US's agencies and not for the lack of jihadis.


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## Norwegian

When extremist Pakistanis are barred from doing terrorism in Pakistan, they start doing it in America


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## VCheng

illusion8 said:


> LOL..American muslims aren't some special one's to be exempt and stay away from radicalization. .The agencies are quite active resulting in not many terrorist incidents.
> 
> "While it’s true fewer American Muslims are joining ISIS abroad, hold the applause. More are staying at home and plotting terrorist attacks here."
> 900 ‘homegrown’ ISIS cases being investigated in US: FBI | New York Post
> 
> 
> *Over 60 isis affiliated terrorist attacks prevented by FBI last year alone.
> *
> 
> 
> The less number of terrorist attacks in the US is credited to the pro active work of the US's agencies and not for the lack of jihadis.



The LEOs are doing a splendid job in preventing attacks. Of course, this is an ongoing effort and can never be 100% successful, but it is being made as secure as it possibly can be, with continuous improvements in light of new information.


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## RabzonKhan

Here's some more info on the TERRORISTS.

*
Female attacker from DG Khan praised Da’ish chief

By Tariq Ismaeel / Agencies
Published: December 5, 201

*
DG KHAN / WASHINGTON / SAN BERNARDINO: 
Investigators believe that the female shooter involved in Wednesday’s deadly rampage in California, had pledged allegiance to Da’ish (Islamic State) group leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in a Facebook post on an alias account.

One US official familiar with the investigation said Tashfeen Malik, 27, had posted on a Facebook account under a different name just as the attack was going on. The officials did not explain how they knew Malik was responsible for the post, CNN reported.

Malik and her American-born husband, Syed Rizwan Farook, had burst into a year-end party in San Bernardino, California on Wednesday afternoon and opened fire on a roomful of Farook’s co-workers, killing 14 and wounding 21.

David Bowdich, assistant director of the FBI’s Los Angeles office, announced at a press conference on Friday morning that they were investigating the mass shooting as an “act of terrorism” after details of Malik’s deleted Facebook post came to light.

A US official told the Associated Press on the condition of anonymity that Malik had expressed “admiration” for Baghdadi in the Facebook post. A Facebook executive said that the post was made at the same time the first calls to police were made about the attack.

Meanwhile, Malik’s relatives in her native district of Layyah said that they have been questioned by Pakistani security officials in connection with the attack.

Tashfeen hailed from DG Khan

Malik hailed from Taunsa tehsil in DG Khan district of Punjab but had lived much of her life in Saudi Arabia.


*Malik was born to Haji Gulzar Ahmed Malik, patron of a prosperous Seraiki-speaking family in Vehoa city, in DG Khan. She has two sisters and two brothers and was related to former provincial minister Ahmed Ali Aulak.*

Haji Gulzar had moved from his native city to Layyah for a short while before taking his family to Rawalpindi as he pursued his business. That pursuit took Haji Gulzar to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia almost 25 years ago.

However, with educational opportunities limited for non-residents in Saudi Arabia, Haji Gulzar sent his daughters to Pakistan to complete their higher studies. Following in her older sister’s footsteps, Malik arrived in Pakistan to study pharmacy at the Bahauddin Zakaria University.

Her maternal uncle told _The Express Tribune_ that she came back around five to six years ago. Like her sister, she completed her D-Pharm with a 74.88 percentage.


After completing her studies, Malik returned to Saudi Arabia.

Farook was born in an Urdu-speaking household in Illinois to Syed and Rafia Farook. In 2013 Farook visited Saudi Arabia to perform Hajj.

After he met Malik apparently through an online matrimonial service, Rizwan returned to Saudi Arabia to meet her family.

The two married and moved to the US where they had a six-month-old baby.

*One of Malik’s uncles, Javed Rabbani, said her father, Haji Gulzar, had changed during their time in Saudi Arabia. “When relatives visited him, they would come back and tell us how conservative and hard-line he had become,” Rabbani said.

Her maternal uncle disclosed that both Malik and Farook were religiously inclined.*

Pakistan condemns attack

The Pakistan embassy in Washington DC on Friday condemned the attack and offered condolences to families of the victims.

“It is hoped that the investigations would lead the authorities to the perpetrators of this act to justice sooner,” it said in a statement.

Meanwhile, security officials have started inquiring about Malik with her relatives in DG Khan questioned.


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## VCheng

Rabzon said:


> Malik hailed from Taunsa tehsil in DG Khan district of Punjab but had lived much of her life in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> 
> *Malik was born to Haji Gulzar Ahmed Malik, patron of a prosperous Seraiki-speaking family in Vehoa city, in DG Khan. She has two sisters and two brothers and was related to former provincial minister Ahmed Ali Aulak.*
> 
> Haji Gulzar had moved from his native city to Layyah for a short while before taking his family to Rawalpindi as he pursued his business. That pursuit took Haji Gulzar to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia almost 25 years ago.
> 
> However, with educational opportunities limited for non-residents in Saudi Arabia, Haji Gulzar sent his daughters to Pakistan to complete their higher studies. Following in her older sister’s footsteps, Malik arrived in Pakistan to study pharmacy at the Bahauddin Zakaria University.



The connections to Pakistan raise deep implications that will have far-reaching effects.


----------



## Tridibans

LaBong said:


> Generalisation is never fine, but we should welcome all criticism. Failure to identify and speak against the problem in it's early stage will land us in the same catch 22 situation Islam is today.



I agree 100%. But isn't it hypocrisy when all the BJP/RSS supporters are bad when 1 guy commits any crime or 1 random fellow sprouts some rubbish from his mouth? 

Why doesn't then Owaisi represents all of Congress or UPA (His party was part of Congress till 2012). Or for that matter that Imran Masood guy (Congress MLA) who said we will cut up Modi into pieces?



nvKyleBrown said:


> Boston bombers were Chechen.
> 
> 
> 
> The police could not sue you - that would be civil matter. They could charge him with interfering with an investigation, or disturbing a crime scene, or destruction of evidence, or the like - all crimes. But suing him would be out.



You are correct. I meant this one and not Boston

Faisal Shahzad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PS: My point still stands. Quote me 1 Indian convicted of terrorism outside India in recent memory.....

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## VCheng




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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Ridiculous or good civic sense? I will stand by my stance here.


How exactly is viewing someone working long hours in a garage and receiving 'lots of packages' with suspicion good civic sense?


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> How exactly is viewing someone working long hours in a garage and receiving 'lots of packages' with suspicion good civic sense?



I work long hours in the garage and receive lots of packages too, but being aware of what goes on in the neighborhood is merely a matter of good civic sense, is it not?


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## Ice Cube

god damn sunnis


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> I work long hours in the garage and receive lots of packages too, but being aware of what goes on in the neighborhood is merely a matter of good civic sense, is it not?


Unless you intend for people to go poking around inside their neighbors garages to see what exactly is being worked on and opening random pacakges to determine contents, I don't see how your suggestion of what neighbors 'could have done and reported as suspicious activity' is viable.


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Unless you intend for people to go poking around inside their neighbors garages to see what exactly is being worked on and opening random pacakges to determine contents, I don't see how your suggestion of what neighbors 'could have done and reported as suspicious activity' is viable.



When neighbors are on good terms with each other, knowing what is going on in the whole sub-division is easy. You should know that, having lived here, and you know what I am talking about.


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## pakdefender

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


>



Hmmm this looks photoshopped , if you look closely at the font for the urdu word "Naam" and the font used to print the name in urdu , then same for the next Urdu word "Jinis" and the word "Aurat" , the font is again diffrent , same for all other data

For those of us who have Pakistani ID card issued , please take them out and have look at the font on your ID cards for the font used for "Naam" and your name that appears in urdu in front of it and the font used for all other headings and filled texts , they will be the same font , not different font

Also they photoshop chap got the "Tarikh e Paidaish" ( date of birth ) format wrong its written July 13 , 1986 .. the ID cards issued by NADRA have DOB format as DD/MM/YYYY and not MM DD, YYYY

Just notice that the photo itself looks "raised" from the back ground , in the Pakistani ID card the picture is smoothly part of the main ID card body

Very poor attempt at photoshopping


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> Hmmm this looks photoshopped , if you look closely at the font for the urdu word "Naam" and the font used to print the name in urdu , then same for the next Urdu word "Jinis" and the word "Aurat" , the font is again diffrent , same for all other data
> 
> For those of us who have Pakistani ID card issued , please take them out and have look at the font on your ID cards for the font used for "Naam" and your name that appears in urdu in front of it and the font used for all other headings and filled texts , they will be the same font , not different font
> 
> Also they photoshop chap got the "Tarikh e Paidaish" ( date of birth ) format wrong its written July 13 , 1986 .. the ID cards issued by NADRA have DOB format as DD/MM/YYYY and not MM DD, YYYY
> 
> Just notice that the photo itself looks "raised" from the back ground , in the Pakistani ID card the picture is smmothly part of the main ID card body
> 
> Very poor attempt at photoshopping



It depends on when and where the card was issued. Pakistani NICs have changed many times over the years, Sir.


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## pakdefender

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> It depends on when and where the card was issued. Pakistani NICs have changed many times over the years, Sir.



No , the NDARA ID cards have identical fonts and have been identical since the time the computerized ID cards came , these cards are not hand generated

What you have posted is clearly photoshopped







One more addition , the place of signature where the word "Tashfeen" is written on white background is again wrong , the signature field on the cards seamless merges into the back ground

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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> No , the NDARA ID cards have identical fonts and have been identical since the time the computerized ID cards came , these cards are not hand generated
> 
> What you have posted is clearly photoshopped
> 
> View attachment 277356



The NIC number shown is clearly traceable, Sir. Let NADRA confirm or deny it.


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## pakdefender

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The NIC number shown is clearly traceable, Sir. Let NADRA confirm or deny it.



I can tell you that the picture of the ID card you posted is fake

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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> I can tell you that the picture of the ID card you posted is fake



You may be correct Sir. But it is NADRA's responsibility to _officially _indicate whether that card is fake or not. It is important that they do their duty without delay.


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## Styx

LaBong said:


> No equivalence, just see a pattern among some of us which is prevalent among most Muslims.


man, I'm irreligious, don't care about any of it and don't want to be an apologist for the nut jobs but all this recent "hindu taliban"  "wahhabi hinduism" LOL  and "rss = isis" etc by the lefty media is a load of crap and honestly quite laughable.

radical sunni islam and sallafism etc is at a whole other level, undisputed champs.. evil jooz, pagan hindus, followers of the prophet jesus, buddhists, the shia heretics...  and whatehavyou.. they're not even little league compared to taliban, boko haram, isis and qaeda etc


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## pakdefender

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You may be correct Sir. But it is NADRA's responsibility to _officially _indicate whether that card is fake or not. It is important that they do their duty without delay.



It's not that I may be correct , I *AM* correct , this is a photoshopped copy 

This copy of the ID card would not even pass off a basic check for authenticity 

While its the official duty of NADRA to authenticate this , in what capacity are reuters and people like yourself circulating unverified and doctored copies of this id card ?

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## Chinese-Dragon

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> When neighbors are on good terms with each other, knowing what is going on in the whole sub-division is easy. You should know that, having lived here, and you know what I am talking about.



How do you stop someone from making a pipe bomb though, since bullets (and thus gunpowder) is so easy to buy.

Would you be suspicious if a neighbour bought a gun with a lot of bullets?

Hell, I'm a bit of a gun enthusiast myself, if I lived in America I would probably buy a ton of guns. In HK we only have shooting ranges but no private ownership of guns.

What baffles me about these terrorists though, is that they clearly have no sense of self-preservation, YET they are so careful about hiding their true identities from their neighbours and friends. They are so worried that they will die before they complete their "mission"?

If someone is so desperate to die, why not just become a Heroin junkie and die in a dark room somewhere. Why do terrorists see their mission as being so important, and for no Earthly reward. It is so illogical.


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## Roybot

Chinese-Dragon said:


> How do you stop someone from making a pipe bomb though, since bullets (and thus gunpowder) is so easy to buy.
> 
> Would you be suspicious if a neighbour bought a gun with a lot of bullets?
> 
> Hell, I'm a bit of a gun enthusiast myself, if I lived in America I would probably buy a ton of guns. In HK we only have shooting ranges but no private ownership of guns.
> 
> What baffles me about these terrorists though, is that they clearly have no sense of self-preservation, YET they are so careful about hiding their true identities from their neighbours and friends. They are so worried that they will die before they complete their "mission"?
> 
> If someone is so desperate to die, why not just become a Heroin junkie and die in a dark room somewhere. Why do terrorists see their mission as being so important, and for no Earthly reward. It is so illogical.



You don't stop them. If you see someone receiving packages with explosives, chemicals, most boxed would be marked on the outside, you go and inform the police. Better be safe than sorry.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Roybot said:


> You don't stop them. If you see someone receiving packages with explosives, chemicals, most boxed would be marked on the outside, you go and inform the police. Better be safe than sorry.



What I meant, is that how do you even KNOW if someone is making a pipe bomb.

I mean everyone in America can buy a pipe, anyone can buy bullets and empty the powder/charge into the pipe. Then seal the pipe tightly so that there is nowhere for the pressure to go, resulting in the pipe exploding into shrapnel.

Technically every single person in America could make one. Hell most anyone on Earth could probably make one. But how do you know who is actually doing it?

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## nvKyleBrown

Roybot said:


> You don't stop them. If you see someone receiving packages with explosives, chemicals, most boxed would be marked on the outside, you go and inform the police. Better be safe than sorry.



Hazardous materials would have to be marked. Might be hard to see exactly what it was from the street if the package was left on the porch, or immediately received and taken inside.


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## gambit

Chinese-Dragon said:


> What baffles me about these terrorists though, is that they clearly have no sense of self-preservation, YET they are so careful about hiding their true identities from their neighbours and friends. They are so worried that they will die before they complete their "mission"?
> 
> If someone is so desperate to die, why not just become a Heroin junkie and die in a dark room somewhere. Why do terrorists see their mission as being so important, and for no Earthly reward. It is so illogical.


This is where you are wrong. What they did was very logical.

You have to think of what they did in terms of warfare because this is exactly what it is -- war between forces.

If the mission is most likely or even certain that will claim the lives of the participants, then all measures must be taken to ensure that the end goal of the mission is accomplished. Since the mission required a lot of preparation, you must take steps to ensure your preparation of resources is not disturbed. If precautions requires disguises or some kinds of covert actions -- do so. The goal is to inflict as much damages to the other side as possible, not to do things that will result in one's death. As to the Earthly rewards, the belief is that the Heavenly rewards are much greater, if anything, the Heavenly rewards is supposed to match the level of dedication and accomplishments done on Earth.

These people are not desperate to die. Rather, they are desperate to produce results and accomplishments. Plus, there are no uniforms, hierarchies, or even clear orders involved, and that is what make this kind of warfare even more dangerous than conventional warfare.


----------



## Adil Mehmood

There was quick mudslinging over Pakistan followed by the attacks. It was said that a married couple entered the centre & opened fire instantly. Man is said to be the son of a Pakistani based American family and women allegedly belong to ISIS being a Pakistani Citizen. 
What i personally observed that attack was pre planed not by terrorists but by some unknown American forces as they instantly called incident an act of terror instead of having a deep analysis that it might based upon personal conflicts. Pakistan FO is still in coma & haven't responded to allegations yet. Some forces trying to defame Islam and Pakistan by linking it wiyh terrorism and ISIS.


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## Styx

Chinese-Dragon said:


> How do you stop someone from making a pipe bomb though, since bullets (and thus gunpowder) is so easy to buy.
> 
> Would you be suspicious if a neighbour bought a gun with a lot of bullets?
> 
> Hell, I'm a bit of a gun enthusiast myself, if I lived in America I would probably buy a ton of guns. In HK we only have shooting ranges but no private ownership of guns.
> 
> What baffles me about these terrorists though, is that they clearly have no sense of self-preservation, YET they are so careful about hiding their true identities from their neighbours and friends. They are so worried that they will die before they complete their "mission"?
> 
> If someone is so desperate to die, why not just become a Heroin junkie and die in a dark room somewhere. Why do terrorists see their mission as being so important, and for *no Earthly reward*. It is so illogical.


because there's way more emphasis on the rewards in the afterlife than here in our transient reality for the saudi ideology fundamentalists...

and they really do believe it's a holy war for god and that they're all getting a mansion in heaven and a few other perks to go with it.. barely legal 72 

you have to wonder what the women are rewarded with, 2 full basketball teams as _all purpose  _slaves maybe ?

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## Stephen Cohen

gambit said:


> This is where you are wrong. What they did was very logical.
> 
> You have to think of what they did in terms of warfare because this is exactly what it is -- war between forces.
> 
> If the mission is most likely or even certain that will claim the lives of the participants, then all measures must be taken to ensure that the end goal of the mission is accomplished. Since the mission required a lot of preparation, you must take steps to ensure your preparation of resources is not disturbed. If precautions requires disguises or some kinds of covert actions -- do so. The goal is to inflict as much damages to the other side as possible, not to do things that will result in one's death. As to the Earthly rewards, the belief is that the Heavenly rewards are much greater, if anything, the Heavenly rewards is supposed to match the level of dedication and accomplishments done on Earth.
> 
> These people are not desperate to die. Rather, they are desperate to produce results and accomplishments. Plus, there are no uniforms, hierarchies, or even clear orders involved, and that is what make this kind of warfare even more dangerous than conventional warfare.



Jihadis are self motivated and self driven 

There is enough motivational material available to them 
both historically and contemporarily


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## NP-complete

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


>


Its easily spotted as fake. There is a mismatch of perspective and texture.

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## Chinese-Dragon

gambit said:


> This is where you are wrong. What they did was very logical.
> 
> You have to think of what they did in terms of warfare because this is exactly what it is -- war between forces.
> 
> If the mission is most likely or even certain that will claim the lives of the participants, then all measures must be taken to ensure that the end goal of the mission is accomplished. Since the mission required a lot of preparation, you must take steps to ensure your preparation of resources is not disturbed. If precautions requires disguises or some kinds of covert actions -- do so. The goal is to inflict as much damages to the other side as possible, not to do things that will result in one's death. As to the Earthly rewards, the belief is that the Heavenly rewards are much greater, if anything, the Heavenly rewards is supposed to match the level of dedication and accomplishments done on Earth.
> 
> These people are not desperate to die. Rather, they are desperate to produce results and accomplishments. Plus, there are no uniforms, hierarchies, or even clear orders involved, and that is what make this kind of warfare even more dangerous than conventional warfare.



What are they actually achieving though.

They kill 14 innocent people, then what? It just strengthens the resolve of people to wipe out terrorists.

How does it benefit the terrorist leaders, or these two individuals themselves. I guess ISIL can use it as recruiting propaganda to do what, the same thing again?

And if they believe they will receive reward in Heaven for being terrorists, then there must be something wrong with them. They abandoned their kid on Earth in the hands of their enemies even.

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## gambit

Stephen Cohen said:


> Jihadis are self motivated and self driven
> 
> There is enough motivational material available to them
> both historically and contemporarily


Our Army friend Garry can probably explains better than an Air Force guy like me, but essentially, this team is structurally and organizationally the same as any 'resistance' groups/movements in any conventional war. Self motivated, cautious, autonomous, and belief in 'The Cause'. If it is possible discrete teams can communicate with each other to coordinate actions, they will do so, but if not possible, then any individual action will have no detrimental effects on the ability of the other teams to accomplish their missions.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

gambit said:


> Our Army friend Garry can probably explains better than an Air Force guy like me, but essentially, this team is structurally and organizationally the same as any 'resistance' groups/movements in any conventional war. Self motivated, cautious, autonomous, and belief in 'The Cause'. If it is possible discrete teams can communicate with each other to coordinate actions, they will do so, but if not possible, then any individual action will have no detrimental effects on the ability of the other teams to accomplish their missions.



All I can say is that they will strike whenever the opportunity presents itself

Why they do it ; what do they want is something that you must do some research on it
You must know the ideology that is behind their thoughts and feelings towards
"others " and which ultimately drives their actions


----------



## gambit

Chinese-Dragon said:


> What are they actually achieving though.


Goals can be 'large' or 'small' and even those words are open to interpretation. As long as they are contributors to what they believes to be a cause greater than their lives, that would be satisfaction enough.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> They kill 14 innocent people, then what? It just strengthens the resolve of people to wipe out terrorists.


The word 'innocent' is debatable, as far as they are concerned. It is enough that the targets are Americans, as in being an American is sufficient to be sentenced to death.

The larger group is not so naive as to think that the US will not harden our resolve, but that is not the point. Resistance by the enemy is *NEVER* a consideration. Yes, they are aware that the enemy will come up with new ways to fight, whether those new ways are technological or procedural as components of that increased resistance, but overall, resolve from the enemy is *NEVER* a discouraging factor.


----------



## !eon

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


>



chi chi chi so badly photoshoped 
check the below one

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## XenoEnsi-14

!eon said:


> chi chi chi so badly photoshoped
> check the below one


...

.... Looks at signature.....
Who's Barkic?


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## illusion8

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The LEOs are doing a splendid job in preventing attacks. Of course, this is an ongoing effort and can never be 100% successful, but it is being made as secure as it possibly can be, with continuous improvements in light of new information.



I was actually contesting you post claiming that there are just a handful of jihadis and just a few terrorist plots fouled by the FBI...I hope you stand corrected..US spends billions on homeland every year in stopping terrorists, it's not that there aren't many terrorists in the US..there are thousands. .going by the sunni population there. ..but props to the anti terror fighting agencies that they aren't quite successful to cause some major bloodshed..barring of course the pakistani jihadi couple.

Thanks to jihadis ..The world spends billions on securing vital points with cctv and security all over the frigging world. .One cannot walk into a 5 star hotel in India without getting screened thanks to lashkar e toiba. .All of us get treated like possible Islamists.


----------



## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> It's not that I may be correct , I *AM* correct , this is a photoshopped copy
> 
> This copy of the ID card would not even pass off a basic check for authenticity
> 
> While its the official duty of NADRA to authenticate this , in what capacity are reuters and people like yourself circulating unverified and doctored copies of this id card ?



Let's wait until NADRA confirms or denies this card.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> How do you stop someone from making a pipe bomb though, since bullets (and thus gunpowder) is so easy to buy.
> 
> Would you be suspicious if a neighbour bought a gun with a lot of bullets?
> 
> Hell, I'm a bit of a gun enthusiast myself, if I lived in America I would probably buy a ton of guns. In HK we only have shooting ranges but no private ownership of guns.
> 
> What baffles me about these terrorists though, is that they clearly have no sense of self-preservation, YET they are so careful about hiding their true identities from their neighbours and friends. They are so worried that they will die before they complete their "mission"?
> 
> If someone is so desperate to die, why not just become a Heroin junkie and die in a dark room somewhere. Why do terrorists see their mission as being so important, and for no Earthly reward. It is so illogical.



My suspicions would depend on how well (or not) I know said neighbor.



NP-complete said:


> Its easily spotted as fake. There is a mismatch of perspective and texture.



Let's wait until NADRA confirms or denies this card.



illusion8 said:


> I was actually contesting you post claiming that there are just a handful of jihadis and just a few terrorist plots fouled by he FBI...I hope you stand corrected. .there are thousands of possible jihadis on American soil..and props to the anti terror fighting agencies that they aren't quite successful to cause some major bloodshed..barring of course the pakistani jihadi couple.
> 
> Thanks to jihadis ..The world spends billions on securing vital points with cctv and security all over the frigging world. .One cannot walk into a 5 star hotel in India without getting screened thanks to lashkar e toiba. .All of us get treated like possible Islamists.



Thousands of possible jihadis in USA? Nope. Thousands of sympathizers, yes, but only a few scores of nutcases capable of acting out their madness.

======================================



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Ah yes, the Denial Brigade is out in force this morning on this topic.
> 
> Let's hear some juicy conspiracy theories now.



Oh look, here is a nice one: 



Adil Mehmood said:


> There was quick mudslinging over Pakistan followed by the attacks. It was said that a married couple entered the centre & opened fire instantly. Man is said to be the son of a Pakistani based American family and women allegedly belong to ISIS being a Pakistani Citizen.
> What i personally observed that attack was pre planed not by terrorists but by some unknown American forces as they instantly called incident an act of terror instead of having a deep analysis that it might based upon personal conflicts. Pakistan FO is still in coma & haven't responded to allegations yet. Some forces trying to defame Islam and Pakistan by linking it wiyh terrorism and ISIS.

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## illusion8

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let's wait until NADRA confirms or denies this card.
> 
> 
> 
> My suspicions would depend on how well (or not) I know said neighbor.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's wait until NADRA confirms or denies this card.
> 
> 
> 
> Thousands of possible jihadis in USA? Nope. Thousands of sympathizers, yes, but only a few scores of nutcases capable of acting out their madness.
> 
> ======================================
> 
> 
> 
> Oh look, here is a nice one:



You are unfortunately mistaken...conservatively. .what do you think is the strength of isis?.


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## firestorm77

Given how the CIA operates, wouldn't be surprised if its an false flag operation to put pressure on Pakistani government. Either way it is time for Pak government to clean Laal masjid!!


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## RabzonKhan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The connections to Pakistan raise deep implications that will have far-reaching effects.


Once upon a time we used to be a normally a peaceful South Asian country, but then we had a stupid rulers who wanted us to become more like Middle Eastern countries, and yes, they succeeded and we all can see the results.



firestorm77 said:


> Given how the CIA operates, wouldn't be surprised if its an false flag operation to put pressure on Pakistani government.

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## VCheng

Rabzon said:


> Once upon a time we used to be a normally a peaceful South Asian country, but then we had a stupid rulers who wanted us to become more like Middle Eastern countries, and yes, they succeeded and we all can see the results.



Those times are long gone. The Pakistan of today is what the world sees, not what people like you or I can remember.



illusion8 said:


> You are unfortunately mistaken...conservatively. .what do you think is the strength of isis?.



I was talking about within USA, not overseas.

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## pakdefender

!eon said:


> chi chi chi so badly photoshoped
> check the below one



haha identification mark says "aasteen ka saanp" or snake up the sleeve



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let's wait until NADRA confirms or denies this card.




This card is fake , as clear as day it's fake 

Admit it you posted an unverified , fake and doctored copy of an ID card


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> This card is fake , as clear as day it's fake
> 
> Admit it you posted an unverified , fake and doctored copy of an ID card



I will wait for NADRA's response first, Sir.


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## RabzonKhan

*Pakistani in California shooting became hardline in Saudi Arabia: relatives*
KAROR LAL ESAN, PAKISTAN
Dec 5, 2015





*The estranged relatives of Tashfeen Malik, a Pakistani woman accused of shooting dead 14 people in California, say she and her father seem to have abandoned the family's moderate Islam and became more radicalized during years they spent in Saudi Arabia. *

Malik, with her husband Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, is accused of storming a gathering in San Bernardino, California, on Wednesday and opening fire in America's worst mass shooting in three years.

Investigators are treating Wednesday's attack as an "act of terrorism." On Saturday, the Islamic State (IS) group claimed the couple as their followers. There is no evidence yet that IS directed the attack or even knew the attackers.

Malik's killing spree has horrified her Pakistani relatives. Her father cut off contact with his family after a feud over inheritance, they told Reuters, and moved to Saudi Arabia when his daughter was a toddler. There, it seems, he turned to a stricter form of Islam.

*"From what we heard, they lived differently, their mindset is different. We are from a land of Sufi saints ... this is very shocking for us," said school teacher Hifza Bibi, the step-sister of Malik's father, who lives in Karor Lal Esan town in central Punjab province. *

*Sufism, a strain of Islam popular in parts of Pakistan, emphasizes a mystical, personal religious connection. Devotees often play music and dance at shrines, and their practices are looked on with suspicion by orthodox Muslims. *

*"Our brother ... went to Saudi and since then he doesn't care about anyone here," Bibi said. "A man who didn't come to attend his own mother's funeral, what can you expect from him?"*

Tashfeen Malik returned to Pakistan and studied pharmacy at Bahauddin Zakaria university in Multan from 2007 to 2012. She lived in a university hostel. An identity card said she was 29 years old at the time of the shootings.

*"She was known to be good student with no religious extremist tendencies," an intelligence official based in the nearby town of Layyah told Reuters. *

Malik's uncle Javed Rabbani, a clerk in the town's education department, said he has not seen his brother in 30 years.

*"We feel a lot of sadness but we also feel ashamed that someone from our family has done this," he said. "We can't even imagine doing something like this. This is a mindset that is alien to us."*

Malik visited Pakistan in 2013 and 2014, security officials told Reuters, but it's unclear who she met or where she visited.

Pakistani media reported she had links to the radical Red Mosque in the capital of Islamabad, but a cleric and a spokesman at the mosque said they had never heard of her before.


(Additional reporting by Amjad Ali in ISLAMABAD and Syed Raza Hassan in KARACHI; Writing By Katharine Houreld; Editing by Raju Gopalakrishnan)



pakdefender said:


> This card is fake , as clear as day it's fake
> 
> Admit it you posted an unverified , fake and doctored copy of an ID card


So how do you know it is fake?






The Pakistan identification card of Tashfeen Malik is shown in this undated handout picture from a government official and obtained by Reuters on December 5, 2015.
Reuters/Handout VIA REUTER


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## Trisonics

argument that this terrorist picture should not have been shown without her burqa, calling it "disrespectful".
Shared via twitter.


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## RabzonKhan

Trisonics said:


> Pakistani arguing that this terrorist picture should not have been shown without her burqa, calling it "disrespectful".
> Shared via twitter.


What a freaking idiot. If this idiot lives in US then the FBI better keep an eye on him, he can explode any time.

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## Mrc

Trisonics said:


> Pakistani arguing that this terrorist picture should not have been shown without her burqa, calling it "disrespectful".
> Shared via twitter.



Not pakistani but beauro chief of aljazeera and an arab

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## Trisonics

Mrc said:


> Not pakistani but beauro chief of aljazeera and an arab



Thanks. I will edit my post.

I'm wondering if this incident and the one in UC Merced have any connections?

Both the incidents were carried out by Pakistani origin people, both in California and both allegedly have some sort of ISIS connection.

Update: UC Mercer Stabbing


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## pakdefender

Rabzon said:


> So how do you know it is fake?



Go back a page or two and see the reply I posted which highlights the signs of forgery .. The difference in Urdu font/script , wrong date of birth format , forged signature field, picture superimposed rather than printed onto the card and finally the back of card picture that you just posted had the date of expiry of the card written but not the date of issue

There are just too many inaccuracies


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## Mrc

Trisonics said:


> Thanks. I will edit my post.
> 
> I'm wondering if this incident and the one in UC Merced have any connections?
> 
> Both the incidents were carried out by Pakistani origin people, both in California and both allegedly have some sort of ISIS connection.
> 
> Update: UC Mercer Stabbing




If this is really linked to terrorism, than i bet they had accomplices


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## Mrc

Why else would u destroy computer hard drive and phones....
Is nt the whole purpose to make a statement?


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## Indus Pakistan

Bang Galore said:


> Arab families, rather than in the typical Pakistani manner.



This say's it all. I live in UK and I see it too often. The issue is not *citizenship*. The issue is not even place of birth. The issue is* outlook*.

A Pakistan born in UK, brought up in UK could be infected with certain outlook - the infection could have been the local mosque which is dominated by Saudi Wahabism. The mosque acts like a vector. Over time that individuel develops a certain outlook which is more in sync with Saudia Arabia or some radical madaris inside Pakistan then the UK.

Out of the 10,000s who develop such outlook all it requires is some have certain personality profile and then some external stimuli - result they go over the edge. I am tired of Pakistani's washing their hands off these people. The fact is these people are products of thinking that is not from UK or USA. It is something they imported.

Pakistani's are most prone to this. This is surprising. You could understand if it was a Palestinian. You could understand if it was Iraqi. You could understand if it was Algerian even as all are Arabs and subject of Western intervention. You could even understand if it was Afghan.

So why Pakistani. Simple. No damed identity. When they go abroad they go through identity crisis. Are they Desi? Are they Indian? Are they Asian? Are they Apna? They fall back on Islamic identity. They describe themselves as Muslim.

A Turk, a Iranian, a Afghan, a Indian, a Malaysian will if asked in Europe reply saying who they are. Pakistani will say "Muslim". The "P" word will be avoided. Once they build this "Muslim" identity they create world which in fact does not exist - not in the legal or practical domain. The "Muslim world".

Iraq gets bombed they* cry*. Syria gets bombed they* cry*. Libyia gets bombed they *cry*. Yeman gets bombed they *cry*. Gaza gets bombed they* cry*. The entire Muslim world becomes their headache. Its is like they carry the burden of the* entire* Muslim world. The West is seen as evil. The West is seen as source of all the suffering across multiple points on the globe.

All it then requires is certain type of personality which might have been exposed to some racism which is then internalized and seen as part of the wider evil that is being subjected to the Muslim world.

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## Adecypher

I condemn this despicable act and Allah Subhanu Taala R.I.P the souls of the victims of this tragedy. I am afraid that the lives of an average American Muslim will be impacted as I am quoting a para below from a news article published by NYTimes on Dec. 4, 2015.

Now, with the F.B.I. saying that one of those responsible for the San Bernardino massacre had expressed Islamic State sympathies on Facebook, _*American Muslims are bracing for more hate directed their way*_. Overnight on Friday, vandals broke all the windows at the Islamic Center of Palm Beach in Florida, turned over furniture in the prayer room and left bloody stains throughout the facility. The F.B.I. is investigating death threats left by voice mail at a mosque in Manassas, Va. 

Just hope that sanity will prevail...

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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> If there is any Pakistani or person/s of Pakistan origin involved in this disgusting evil act, I will remove my Pakistan flag.
> 
> Stupid, irrational and evil.
> 
> _Caveat: If this was a Islamist terrorist attack and not your typical American gone nuts case. If it is the latter, then tabulate with Columbine High etc._



So what will your new flags be, Sir?

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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> So what will your new flags be, Sir?



Time I paid my respects to Her Majesty ..... *Union Jack* I guess. True to my word I will request the admin to change my flags ....

_@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you._

@Syed.Ali.Haider Request made as pledged.

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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> Time I paid my respects to Her Majesty ..... *Union Jack* I guess. True to my word I will request the admin to change my flags ....
> 
> _@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you._
> 
> @Syed.Ali.Haider Request made as pledged.



If you tag someone as an edit, they do not get a notification, Sir.


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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> as an edit



I am one of those weird people. Just good at one thing - Thank god I got a job that just requires my very restricted experise. Beyond that I am utter incompetent fool. I barely can even use my iphone. So thanks for informing me.

_@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you._

This should do it.


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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> I am one of those weird people. Just good at one thing - Thank god I got a job that just requires my very restricted experise. Beyond that I am utter incompetent fool. I barely can even use my iphone. So thanks for informing me.
> 
> _@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you._
> 
> This should do it.



Let's see if PDF can tolerate a blue title without a Pakistani flag.

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## Indus Pakistan

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let' see if PDF can tolerate a blue title without a Pakistani flag



Actually they can. This forum is very broadminded. When I got TTA status I was badged as "Union Jack". I only changed it later to carry more traction here. Got tired of "nobheads" coming out with "but your not Pakistani". My weakness in Urdu or lack thereof further caused me problems. So I covered it up with the crescent and star.

These a*ssholes don't realise it is the Pakistan diaspora that keeps Pakistan floating. We keep PIA, the banks and millions in employment inside Pakistan. Whilst Pakistani political class and elite plunder and take money abroad we go and invest it in Pakistan.

I give you one example. My dad made his life in UK in the 1960s and did very well economically. In 1990s he got carried away by Pakistan government request for expats to save money in Pakistan in sterling accounts. So he shifted something like £150k back in circa 1996 to one of these so called secure sterling accounts. As a bonus it also put his savings out of the clutches of HMRC.

Came 1998 NS's government froze the accounts and subsequently you could only take the money out in Rs. As the Rupee had had dropped in value my dad took massive loss. It might not have been too bad if as he felt that was price to be paid for the atom bomb tests ( my dad is very patriotic ) but when he found out later that all the powers that be inside Pak let all their cronies and friends to withdraw the money before the accounts were frozen.

Whilst the elite in Pak take their ill gotten gains abroad or invest in real estate in Dubai we fools go to Pak and invest there by building houses etc thus fueling the local economy. We keep PIA flying despite it employing 1,000 people per passenger with only one doing half hearted work or more often then not drunk.

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## Hyperion

PDF has a big heart. If it can tolerate you, so can it @Atanz's blue & reds!  




Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let's see if PDF can tolerate a blue title without a Pakistani flag.


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## Solomon2

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Read the article it makes no mention of any religious motives.


Neither did I! I pointed out you were cherry-picking the data to get the outcome you wanted.



> I know in the Talmud it tells you that you can lie and cheat the goyam, but I'm finding it difficult to accept how two people can MURDER 14 INNOCENT people.


That's uncalled for. It's the equivalent of putting a sign out on their lawn that says, "No evil Muslims or dogs on the grass".




> It doesn't make sense! This is wrong and tragic for the families of the victims. Total barbarism. No other word for it!


Oh, so it makes sense that the families who reared their kids who ** magically? ** turned out to be killers automatically deserve your sympathy? Not the families of the victims?


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## Solomon2

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> ...The Muslim world (Islamic scholars in particular) need to address the problems inherent in the Hadith. There are some rather depraved hadith in the books, and merely calling them 'un-authentic' or 'less authentic' is no longer acceptable. The Hadith need to be brought in line with the Quran and those hadith that justify violence, murder and prejudice stricken from the books...


Are you so sure that you're right and the Islamic scholars are wrong?

_A sermon delivered by popular Saudi Sheikh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid clearly demonstrates why Western secular relativists and multiculturalists...are incapable of understanding, much less responding to, the logic of Islamic intolerance._​
_During his sermon, al-Munajjid said that "some [Muslim] hypocrites" wonder why it is that "we [Muslims] don't permit them [Western people] to build churches, even though they allow mosques to be built." The Saudi sheikh responded by saying that any Muslim who thinks this way is "ignorant" and "...wants to equate between right and wrong, between Islam and kufr [non-Islam], monotheism and shirk [polytheism], and gives to each side equal weight, and wants to compare this with that...Do you equate between right and wrong? Are Zoroastrian fire temples, Jewish temples, Christian churches, monks' monasteries, and Buddhist and Hindu temples, equal to you with the houses of Allah and mosques?...Allah said: 'Whoever desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers'"...

If, as Munajjid points out, a Muslim truly believes that Islam is the only true religion, and that Muhammad is its prophet, why would he allow that which is false (and thus corrupt, cancerous, misleading, etc.) to exist alongside it? Such gestures of "tolerance" would be tantamount to a Muslim who "wants to equate between right and wrong,"...If you truly believe that there is only one religion that leads to paradise and averts damnation, is it not altruistic to share it with humanity, rather than hypocritically maintaining that all religions lead to God and truth? - _link​
AM, I urge you not to view my interjection with anger, or the sheik's words with despair, but to ponder that if true they also suggest a way out of the violent hellhole Muslims have been digging for themselves and others.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> When neighbors are on good terms with each other, knowing what is going on in the whole sub-division is easy. You should know that, having lived here, and you know what I am talking about.


I agree with the general point about neighbors knowing each other and hanging out and sharing drinks (not to snoop but just to be good neighbors), but that also depends on lifestyle and whether or not one gets along with their neighbors. At a broad level this makes sense, but I don't see how in the case of this particular couple it would have set off alarm bells.



Solomon2 said:


> Are you so sure that you're right and the Islamic scholars are wrong?


The essence of my posts and my calls for moderate Muslims, organizations and governments funding and promoting progressive Islamic Scholars and research into reinterpreting controversial interpretations of the Quran and Hadith is that the current interpretations and ideology promoted and defended by many of the 'traditional' Islamic Scholars is flawed and that these traditional Islamic Scholars need to be challenged and Muslims provided alternate interpretations of the Quran and Hadith.

The sermon you quoted, focusing on the promotion of intolerance within Muslim societies, is just one example of how traditional Islamic Scholars have distorted and manipulated Islam to further their political control and patriarchal and regressive world view.


> _If, as Munajjid points out, a Muslim truly believes that Islam is the only true religion, and that Muhammad is its prophet, why would he allow that which is false (and thus corrupt, cancerous, misleading, etc.) to exist alongside it? Such gestures of "tolerance" would be tantamount to a Muslim who "wants to equate between right and wrong,"...If you truly believe that there is only one religion that leads to paradise and averts damnation, is it not altruistic to share it with humanity, rather than hypocritically maintaining that all religions lead to God and truth? - _link​


Every religion purports to represent the 'one true faith' - the distortion by traditional Islamic Scholars here is in usurping Allah's power to judge, punish and reward in the hereafter as a tool to wield political influence and power in the material world.



Atanz said:


> _@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you._


While changing your flags is certainly your choice, I disagree with the decision and the implication. You're holding Pakistan and all Pakistanis responsible for the acts of two lunatics when many would be reluctant to even hold their immediate families responsible. Farooq's brother appears to be (assuming the current media reports are correct) a decorated US Military veteran, his father an abusive alcoholic and his formative years entirely in the US. Malik appears to have spent her formative years in Saudi Arabia, with reports suggesting that her father too became a hard-line anti-Shia Salafist during his time there.

Until further details regarding their radicalization and motives emerge, holding Pakistan responsible is unfair to say the least. If anything, the fault here is with certain traditional interpretations of Islam and Islamic Scholars - a far more useful move on your part would be to support progressive Islamic movements and scholars, wherever possible, and call for reform and change in Islam from every possible platform.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Tridibans said:


> I still don't understand why you guys are after Indians ? Whatever be our shortcomings, we are not terrorists. Let alone bombing and shooting on the streets of Paris or Sydney or New York in the name of our Hindu gods. Last I heard, there are more Indians abroad than Pakistanis. SO why only Pakistanis get so easily radicalized and not the Hindutva/ RSS extremists whom you guys day in and out proclaim as terrorists?
> 
> If at all, 1 man was killed for eating beef andf all Hindus were bad. Whereas in the name of your religion, perhaps daily 1000 people are killed in Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, by Boko Haram/ ISIS and now the new trend.... well off Pakistanis/ Middle eastern killing random Europeans/ Americans.
> 
> Why don't Hindutva Indians staying in USA or Paris go on killing people?
> 
> Food for thought. But instead of correcting your mistakes, you people are after Indians.
> 
> Let it be. Soon the west would look upon you guys more suspiciously than ever before. While in the meantime, you people can keep on fighting with us Idnians.


I'm not 'after Indians', it's 'Indians who are after Pakistan', something that your post here further validates really. How many of my posts were actually directed at Indians on this thread? You chose to pick my one single post, that criticized the rather sick and even 'celebratory' attitude of some Indians on this thread in flagging the Pakistan link, over the plethora of other posts criticizing current blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws in Pakistan as well as the overall need for reform in Islam. You're so caught up in blaming Pakistan that your diatribe bounces between blaming Pakistan, Islam and Muslims, pulling in acts that had nothing to do with Pakistan, and then goes back to blaming Pakistan. The patently dishonest intention being to essentially link Pakistan to everything.

And terrorism in India goes far beyond 'one man killed for eating beef' - terrorism in India involves the tens of thousands killed in violence in the North East, the tens of thousands killed in communal violence across India (including a thousand plus in the riots in Gujarat alone). India has plenty of homegrown terrorists and terrorism, Hindu and Muslim, and has played its own role in supporting terrorism in other countries, such as the LTTE in Sri Lanka, Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan etc.

Do you see Turks, Iranians, Arabs, Chinese or Russians flagging the Pakistan connection with the 'gusto and cheer' that Indian commentators do, on this forum and any other media platform? No - this is an almost exclusively an irrational Indian obsession with Pakistan.

As I said, _it's part of the Indian narrative which has gone into hyper-drive under the blossoming bosom of their 56-DD Prime Minister._


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Rabzon said:


> What a freaking idiot. If this idiot lives in US then the FBI better keep an eye on him, he can explode any time.


It's because of idiots like him that Al Jazeera America failed so spectacularly.

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## VCheng

*"Let's not forget that freedom is more powerful than fear, that we have always met challenges - whether war or depression, natural disasters or terrorist attacks - by coming together around our common ideals as one nation, as one people. So long as we stay true to that tradition, I have no doubt America will prevail."* - President Obama.

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Solomon2 said:


> Oh, so it makes sense that the families who reared their kids who ** magically? *** turned out to be killers automatically deserve your sympathy? Not the families of the victims?*



Now when did I say that? Step back from your hate filled eyes and read properly. My sympathies are TOTALLY, and COMPLETELY with the 14 innocent victims families who were murdered unjustly.

P.S Don't play politics at the death of innocent people. This is not the time nor the place for you to play your Hasbrara trash!


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## Aestu

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> You're holding Pakistan and all Pakistanis responsible for the acts of two lunatics when many would be reluctant to even hold their immediate families responsible.



Terrorism is an Islamic problem in the same sense gun homicides and hardcore poverty are American problems. 

Not all Pakistanis are terrorists, but the basic ideology predominates in Islamic countries and its institutions etc are, if not supported, seen as non-issues compared to various petty quarrels with infidels who barely know Pakistan exists.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Aestu said:


> Terrorism is an Islamic problem in the same sense gun homicides and hardcore poverty are American problems.
> 
> Not all Pakistanis are terrorists, but the basic ideology predominates in Islamic countries and its institutions etc are, if not supported, seen as non-issues compared to various petty quarrels with infidels who barely know Pakistan exists.


I'd suggest you read my previous posts on the thread - I've essentially argued the same thing, that the problem is with the prevalent interpretations of Islam and not with any one particular country (barring the Saudis perhaps because of their funding of extremist scholars and organizations). 

The issue isn't isolated to Pakistan - ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab were and are organizations formed and dominated by non-Pakistani 'Muslims'.

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## Aestu

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I'd suggest you read my previous posts on the thread - I've essentially argued the same thing, that the problem is with the prevalent interpretations of Islam and not with any one particular country (barring the Saudis perhaps because of their funding of extremist scholars and organizations).
> 
> The issue isn't isolated to Pakistan - ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab were and are organizations formed and dominated by non-Pakistani 'Muslims'.



I agree with most of what you say, except I think the problem is indeed organic to Islam and manifest in the content of the Quran and the person and methods of Muhammed.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Aestu said:


> I agree with most of what you say, except I think the problem is indeed organic to Islam and manifest in the content of the Quran and the person and methods of Muhammed.


I would argue that 'terrorism' and 'Islamic extremism' are now 'American problems' as much as they are 'Muslim problems' because many Americans are also Muslims. It's an American problem much like slavery and segregation were American problems (and to some degree racism continues to be) and required an ideological shift in society. The US (and Europe) cannot take a hands off approach to this.

There are many fine academic institutions and progressive Islamic Scholars in the US who could be funded through a variety of ways (government grants even, provided they are constitutional) to increase research and promote it globally.

Take the example of Laleh Bakhtiar: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/world/americas/25iht-koran.4.5017346.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


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## illusion8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I'm not 'after Indians', it's 'Indians who are after Pakistan', something that your post here further validates really. How many of my posts were actually directed at Indians on this thread? You chose to pick my one single post, that criticized the rather sick and even 'celebratory' attitude of some Indians on this thread in flagging the Pakistan link, over the plethora of other posts criticizing current blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws in Pakistan as well as the overall need for reform in Islam. You're so caught up in blaming Pakistan that your diatribe bounces between blaming Pakistan, Islam and Muslims, pulling in acts that had nothing to do with Pakistan, and then goes back to blaming Pakistan. The patently dishonest intention being to essentially link Pakistan to everything.
> 
> And terrorism in India goes far beyond 'one man killed for eating beef' - terrorism in India involves the tens of thousands killed in violence in the North East, the tens of thousands killed in communal violence across India (including a thousand plus in the riots in Gujarat alone). India has plenty of homegrown terrorists and terrorism, Hindu and Muslim, and has played its own role in supporting terrorism in other countries, such as the LTTE in Sri Lanka, Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan etc.
> 
> Do you see Turks, Iranians, Arabs, Chinese or Russians flagging the Pakistan connection with the 'gusto and cheer' that Indian commentators do, on this forum and any other media platform? No - this is an almost exclusively an irrational Indian obsession with Pakistan.
> 
> As I said, _it's part of the Indian narrative which has gone into hyper-drive under the blossoming bosom of their 56-DD Prime Minister._




That's because India and secondly Afghanistan are the biggest victims of Pakistan proxy groups for decades, so it's quite understandable when these nationalities display the most knowledge or contempt for jihad and proxies and how they are cultivated in Pakistan in the jihad infrastructure over the decades.

As for Turks, Chinese or Russians - millions of them have been killed or have been killed by them in unrelated circumstances that you describe about killings in India - That doesn't have anything to do with Islamic jihad.

It's just recently that the world has faced and has acknowledged the existence of the jihad network in the af pak region. .

Having said that, I commend your effort in painting a moderate picture about Islam. The issue is that you will have to repeat it again and again and again till the next terrorist attack which is around the corner. FBI were successful in stopping 60 terrorist attacks on American mainland just last year... There are thousands of potential jihadis planning the next terrorist attack...let's just hope the FBI are on the job everytime.

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## Assange

Now that this incident has been termed as terrorist attack Americans have started to point at Islam as a terror preaching religion and I have been defending Islam in twitter and Facebook though I am not an Muslim (now)....One thing in particular was very upsetting about these Americans they do not know to distinguish between Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism...they are just b@astards....All they know is Jesus...God damn...I would ask government of American to educate its citizens about this world and different cultures and religions before branding Islam as a terror preaching religion....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

illusion8 said:


> That's because India and secondly Afghanistan are the biggest victims of Pakistan proxy groups for decades, so it's quite understandable when these nationalities display the most knowledge or contempt for jihad and proxies and how they are cultivated in Pakistan in the jihad infrastructure over the decades.


The issue I have is not with 'knowledge and contempt' for 'jihad and proxies', it is with the almost 'celebratory attitude' displayed by many Indians on this thread and other media platforms at the 'Pakistan link'.

And I'm not sure you understood the gist of my posts if you think that my arguments boil down to 'promoting a moderate picture of Islam' - I'm arguing for reforms.


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## illusion8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> The issue I have is not with 'knowledge and contempt' for 'jihad and proxies', it is with the almost 'celebratory attitude' displayed by many Indians on this thread and other media platforms at the 'Pakistan link'.
> 
> And I'm not sure you understood the gist of my posts if you think that my arguments boil down to 'promoting a moderate picture of Islam' - I'm arguing for reforms.



More like "I told you so". But then..most of the posters were on point and I agree that it would be uncomfortable...truth, most times is bitter and pdf does provide that freedom for posters to speak their minds to some extent. 

Reforms are badly needed for Islam's sake and for the sake of its followers..like most religions that brought change by themselves. .Islam needs reforms brought on by its followers..no one else can do anything about it other than put out the flames caused on their soil and Jack up monitoring and increase security at millions of public places.

A joint anti terrorism organization is the need of the hour. Indian leaders are advocating for it on the global stage. .just like they advocated the rise of terrorism earlier. Hopefully the world listens this time around.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

illusion8 said:


> More like "I told you so". But then..most of the posters were on point and I agree that it would be uncomfortable...truth, most times is bitter and pdf does provide that freedom for posters to speak their minds to some extent.


It's not about 'truth' - no one is denying the nationality of one and the nationality of the parents of the other, but the Indian commentary goes beyond that. It's like some of you are almost 'hoping' that a terrorist attack occurs and is traced back to Pakistan. There is no constructive commentary or analysis, just some pretty sick 'cheering' and hate filled Pakistan bashing.


> A joint anti terrorism organization is the need of the hour. Indian leaders are advocating for it on the global stage. .just like they advocated the rise of terrorism earlier. Hopefully the world listens this time around.


That is just a continuation of a military approach that is already ongoing and would have done nothing to prevent the current attack or the Paris attacks. Nor will such an approach accomplish anything in terms of addressing the ideological issues involved.


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## Solomon2

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> The sermon you quoted, focusing on the promotion of intolerance within Muslim societies, is just one example of how traditional Islamic Scholars have distorted and manipulated Islam to further their political control and patriarchal and regressive world view.


Is it for me to judge what's Islamic and what isn't? Rather, consider the argument of the scholar.

In formal logic, the contrapositive of the conditional statement, "If A then B" is "If not B, then not A". If the given conditional statement is true, then logically so is its contrapositive; they are equivalent.

The scholar argues that IF Muslims believe Islam is the only true religion, THEN others shouldn't be tolerated. If you don't like his conclusion, just re-state what the scholar says as the equivalent contrapositive: if you want tolerance, then you also make the statement that Islam is _not_ the only true religion.



Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Now when did I say that? Step back from your hate filled eyes and read properly. My sympathies are TOTALLY, and COMPLETELY with the 14 innocent victims families who were murdered unjustly.


I think people can read what you wrote and judge from that.



> P.S Don't play politics at the death of innocent people. This is not the time nor the place for you to play your Hasbrara trash!


It was you who invoked Jewish stuff. And it appears this was very much on the mind of the shooters:





...Rizwan why he did what he did?

"I do not know. I despair and I do not understand. He had everything: earning $ 70,000 a year, more than 20,000 of overtime, a house, a daughter of six months, was the master to earn more. He was fond of mechanics, like me. He studied environmental engineering because there was no work, but its fun were the cars. In his spare time was a mechanic, in his garage. I do not know, I can not give me peace. Maybe if I were at home I would have found out and stopped. "

She had not noticed that accumulated weapons?

"Once I saw he had a gun, and I was angry: in 45 years of the United States - I shouted - I never had a weapon. He shrugged and said, worse for you. "

Never were speaking of terrorism, Isis?

"Sure. And who does not talk about today? He said he shared the ideology of Al Baghdadi to create an Islamic state, and it was fixed with Israel. "

What does it mean?

"I kept telling him always: stay calm, be patient, two years Israel will no longer exist. Geopolitics is changing: Russia, China, America too, nobody wants the Jews there. Li will report in Ukraine. What good fight? We have done that and we lost. Israel is not fighting with weapons, but with politics. He, however, nothing was fixed. "

Fixed on what?

"She was angry with Israel."

He had contacts with terrorists abroad?...​

You see, @Azad-Kashmiri, once one denies facts, logic, and justice - all of which are necessary to embrace Israel-hatred - then one is capable of doing just about any evil to anyone. A society which promotes Israel-hatred - as Pakistan is, by _diktat_ of its Establishment - digs its own grave, as well as the grave of others.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> Is it for me to judge what's Islamic and what isn't? Rather, consider the argument of the scholar.
> 
> In formal logic, the contrapositive of the conditional statement, "If A then B" is "If not B, then not A". If the given conditional statement is true, then logically so is its contrapositive; they are equivalent.
> 
> The scholar argues that IF Muslims believe Islam is the only true religion, THEN others shouldn't be tolerated. If you don't like his conclusion, just re-state what the scholar says as the equivalent contrapositive: if you want tolerance, then you also make the statement that Islam is _not_ the only true religion.


Before I get into a detailed response, do you agree that your argument is equally applicable to Judaism, Christianity and other organized religions?

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## Solomon2

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Before I get into a detailed response, do you agree that your argument is equally applicable to Judaism, Christianity and other organized religions?


My response wasn't about religion but logic. The logic stands independent of the religion. 

One cannot assume what holds in one religion necessarily applies in another. Judaism, to the best of my knowledge, does _not_ make a statement like this scholar does, as in "Judaism is the one true religion and is to be imposed by Jews upon humanity by force"; the _IF-THEN_ of his reasoning doesn't apply. I'm not in any way qualified to make a statement about other "organized religions".


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## CENTCOM

The details about the suspects involved in the San Bernardino, CA shootings continue to emerge as the investigation continues. The deadliest mass shooting in the U.S. in the past three years has left the nation shocked and saddened. As the nation continues to recover from this horrific act of violence, the people are remembering the victims’ by holding vigils throughout the country. Our thoughts and prayers are also with the victims’ families and friends. It is simply hard to imagine what the loved ones are going through at the moment. We pray that they find the strength to deal with this tragedy and get through this difficult time.

You can go to the link below and see a composite photo of all 14 victims from the San Bernardino shooting rampage.

San Bernardino shooting victims: Who they were - LA Times

The support has also poured in from across the world. This is what the Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry said:

“We offer sincere condolences to the families and friends of the victims in this act of terrorism. Our thoughts, prayers and deepest sympathies are with those who have been injured in the incident. We sincerely wish them an early recovery from their physical and mental trauma.”

President Obama said: "Let's not forget that freedom is more powerful than fear. That we have always met challenges, whether war or depression, natural disasters or terrorist attacks, by coming together around our common ideals as one nation and one people."

Ali Khan
Digital Engagement Team, USCENTCOM

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## pakdefender

Solomon2 said:


> My response wasn't about religion but logic. The logic stands independent of the religion.
> 
> One cannot assume what holds in one religion necessarily applies in another. Judaism, to the best of my knowledge, does _not_ make a statement like this scholar does, as in "Judaism is the one true religion and is to be imposed by Jews upon humanity by force"; the _IF-THEN_ of his reasoning doesn't apply. I'm not in any way qualified to make a statement about other "organized religions".



but Judaism narrative does state that 3000 years ago there was mass exodus from areas that make up the present day Israeli state.

3000 years is long time ago and the face of the land changes but as a result of holding on to the narrative of the exodus and the return , the Israeli state use violence and steal lands as and when it likes

don't you think this narrative is problematic too and needs reform ?


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## illusion8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> It's not about 'truth' - no one is denying the nationality of one and the nationality of the parents of the other, but the Indian commentary goes beyond that. It's like some of you are almost 'hoping' that a terrorist attack occurs and is traced back to Pakistan. There is no constructive commentary or analysis, just some pretty sick 'cheering' and hate filled Pakistan bashing.



Not even close in comparison to Pakistanis here cheering on the deaths of Indian civilians or Indian soldiers at the hands of LET or Hizb cadres.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That is just a continuation of a military approach that is already ongoing and would have done nothing to prevent the current attack or the Paris attacks. Nor will such an approach accomplish anything in terms of addressing the ideological issues involved.



So would you say PA actions are wrong in FATA, Baluchistan or Karachi? . Also what kind of atrocities or military action did PakistanI forces commit that Pakistan ended up with thousands of terrorists?.

The only solution to these lunatics wielding weapons and do not hesitate blowing up innocent civilians..In this case disabled people is to hunt them down.

There's no soft approach to terrorists..The more soft governments become the more atrocities, the more brazen the terrorist attack.


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Solomon2 said:


> It was you who invoked Jewish stuff. And it appears this was very much on the mind of the shooters:



I invoked it because you called all Pakistanis corrupt, hence I quoted the Talmud. Pot calling the kettle black.

As for all the trash you posted about the murderers motives, they can NEVER be justified Islamically. It is HARAM to kill innocent people; the civilians do not bare the burden of others.

So keep spinning your lies and if you want to debate me on Islamical law you're most welcome. I'm not interested in what the 'dogs of hell' the khawrij (ISIS/AQ/TTP, etc) do or what their fake caliph and the UN-ISLAMIC STATE does! They are barbarians, a CULT and our nabi as'salaathu was'salaam told us how to deal with them; KILL THEM!



Solomon2 said:


> I think people can read what you wrote and judge from that.



Yes they can! It proves you're a LIAR! Show me where I've said the victims are not the 14 murdered? Show me 1 post?



Assange said:


> I am not an Muslim (now)....



That must have been a difficult decision to take. Leaving the religion doesn't change anything (except the life in the hereafter), discrimination moves to race, color, etc.


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## Solomon2

pakdefender said:


> but Judaism narrative does state that -


There's no need to go back in time more than a hundred years. The Ottoman Caliph enjoined upon his departing subjects and the League of Nations set up the Mandate of Palestine with the call for Jews to closely settle the area while preserving Arab and Jewish civil and property rights; Jews bought land from Arabs legally or settled on the remaining land granted them by the Caliph after the British chopped off 70% to become Jordan from where the Arabs then expelled the Jews; the Arabs told themselves they could take the Jews money in Mandate Palestine and then kill the Jews and regain the land they sold or wasn't theirs once the British departed. As the Brits left the Arabs decided to go to war and the Jews did what they had to to protect Jews' lives. That didn't involve massacring Arabs but defeating Arab arms and creating a defensible state to protect the lives of the citizenry.



Azad-Kashmiri said:


> I invoked it because you called all Pakistanis corrupt, hence I quoted the Talmud. Pot calling the kettle black.


Made-up or out-of-context Talmud quotes don't count.



> As for all the trash you posted about the murderers motives, they can NEVER be justified Islamically. It is HARAM to kill innocent people; the civilians do not bare the burden of others.


That can be shown by prosecuting the perpetrators of violence against innocents, especially crimes committed by Muslims against non-Muslims. I presume you're familiar with Pakistan's record in this regard.



> So keep spinning your lies and if you want to debate me on Islamical law you're most welcome.


As a non-Muslim I don't think it's up to me to determine what's "Islamical law" and what's not - though I see nothing wrong with asking questions and applying logic and reasoning to others' statements of such.



> I'm not interested in what the 'dogs of hell' the khawrij (ISIS/AQ/TTP, etc) do or what their fake caliph and the UN-ISLAMIC STATE does! They are barbarians, a CULT and our nabi as'salaathu was'salaam told us how to deal with them; KILL THEM!


Why can't you find the strength to do so yourselves? 



> Show me where I've said the victims are not the 14 murdered?


Red herring. The point is that you called upon people to sympathize with the perps' families, not the families of the victims. In the case of the husband, his father claims he tried to steer him away from violence by invoking the vision that Israel's demise was imminent and would be crafted by others. Why have sympathies for a man who attempts to deter murder by invoking dreams of genocide?

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Solomon2 said:


> Made-up or out-of-context Talmud quotes don't count.



So you don't know what your Talmud says? ''Or'' claiming it out of context. Talmud quotes count because when you generalize all Pakistanis, so will I from your religious texts. 



Solomon2 said:


> Why can't you find the strength to do so yourselves?



Who said we are not? We're taking them on militarily and intellectually, and that answers you previous two points.



Solomon2 said:


> Red herring. The point is that you called upon people to sympathize with the perps' families, not the families of the victims. In the case of the husband, his father claims he tried to steer him away from violence by invoking the vision that Israel's demise was imminent and would be crafted by others. Why have sympathies for a man who attempts to deter murder by invoking dreams of genocide?



Keep spinning lies! In black and white; I have NO, ZERO sympathy for the attackers families. My sympthies are totally with the 14 innocent persons families who have lost their loved ones.

Again, show me ONE post I said otherwise! Surely with all your skills obtained at the Hasbra dept, you can spin 1 lie?


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## Solomon2

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> So you don't know what your Talmud says? ''Or'' claiming it out of context. Talmud quotes count because when you generalize all Pakistanis, so will I from your religious texts.


It's not relevant because any intolerance you've cited, real or fictional, isn't what Jews are making of their lives or religion.



> Who said we are not? We're taking them on militarily and intellectually, and that answers you previous two points.


Do you think you're doing an effective job of "taking them on" intellectually? Let alone confronting them politically?



> Keep spinning lies! In black and white; I have NO, ZERO sympathy for the attackers families. My sympthies are totally with the 14 innocent persons families who have lost their loved ones. Again, show me ONE post I said otherwise!


Either your #555 was edited or I read it incorrectly, in which case you have my apologies.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> My response wasn't about religion but logic. The logic stands independent of the religion.
> 
> One cannot assume what holds in one religion necessarily applies in another. Judaism, to the best of my knowledge, does _not_ make a statement like this scholar does, as in "Judaism is the one true religion and is to be imposed by Jews upon humanity by force"; the _IF-THEN_ of his reasoning doesn't apply. I'm not in any way qualified to make a statement about other "organized religions".


So is the 'scholar' making the claim you're referring to or is the Quran, because you're comparing a claim by a particular scholar against 'Judaism'?

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## Solomon2

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> So is the 'scholar' making the claim you're referring to or is the Quran, because you're comparing a claim by a particular scholar against 'Judaism'?


I'm not making any claim about what is "Islam" and what is not, am I?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

illusion8 said:


> Not even close in comparison to Pakistanis here cheering on the deaths of Indian civilians or Indian soldiers at the hands of LET or Hizb cadres.


While distasteful, the two types of incidents are not identical - a distinction has to be made between attacks on combatants in an active conflict zone and non-combatants.


> So would you say PA actions are wrong in FATA, Baluchistan or Karachi? . Also what kind of atrocities or military action did PakistanI forces commit that Pakistan ended up with thousands of terrorists?.
> 
> The only solution to these lunatics wielding weapons and do not hesitate blowing up innocent civilians..In this case disabled people is to hunt them down.
> 
> There's no soft approach to terrorists..The more soft governments become the more atrocities, the more brazen the terrorist attack.


You misunderstood my post - I argued that there is currently no significant advantage to India's 'joint terrorism force' proposal because it would only replicate existing military actions being undertaken under a different name. I did not suggest that current military or security operations in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, FATA, Balochistan or Karachi be terminated, just that India's proposal doesn't offer anything new and unique beyond the military actions already being undertaken.

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## Irfan Baloch

Solomon2 said:


> I'm not making any claim about what is "Islam" and what is not, am I?


I see a contradiction here
first you have decided or judged that the Scholar's narrative is the authentic and Islamic one
and then you put your hands up saying its not up to you to decide what is Islamic and what's not.

it seems that you are seeking controversy and have made up your mind that you will prefer a controversial view of Islam by someone rather than a reconciliatory one.


anyway carry on


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> I'm not making any claim about what is "Islam" and what is not, am I?


I don't really understand your question then - my argument is that many of the traditional Islamic Scholars promote a regressive and intolerant (to varying degrees) interpretation of Islam, and that these interpretations need to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars like Laleh Bakhtiar and furthering research into the more troubling interpretations and translations of the Quran and Hadith. In response to that argument you quoted the speech of an Islamic Scholar who you state is calling for 'Islam to be enforced upon humanity by force' (though I don't see that claim being made explicitly).

Assuming the scholar you quoted is making that particular claim, does he not then fall into that category of 'traditional Islamic Scholars promoting a regressive and intolerant interpretation of Islam' that I argued needs to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars?


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## Solomon2

Irfan Baloch said:


> I see a contradiction here
> first you have decided or judged that the Scholar's narrative is the authentic -


I never judged the scholar's narrative as authentic. I stated that "_*if*_ it is...." and applied logic.


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## VCheng

The terrorists as they arrived in USA:


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## Solomon2

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I don't really understand your question then - my argument is that many of the traditional Islamic Scholars promote a regressive and intolerant (to varying degrees) interpretation of Islam, and that these interpretations need to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars like Laleh Bakhtiar -


Whereas I'm pointing out that IF the scholar is correct, THEN it's the belief that Islam is the one "true religion" that has to change for Islamic society to achieve tolerance. If there's room for different schools of Islamic thought, doesn't that imply there have to be different approaches to achieving tolerance as well?



> you quoted the speech of an Islamic Scholar who you state is calling for 'Islam to be enforced upon humanity by force' (though I don't see that claim being made explicitly)


Rather cunning, isn't he? Don't his rhetorical questions and comparisons rule out forms of Islamic practice that would allow non-Muslim communities to grow in size or even remain stable, leaving the listener to conclude that prevention or compulsion - that is,_ force_ - must be used against non-Muslims and backsliders?

Think of it this way: you're traveling and there's a fork in the road leading three different ways. Your guide and companion says you can't take the first or second ways. He doesn't explicitly say to take the third way: he leaves you to conclude that the only way to go is the third way - or else turn back.


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## Yahoooooo!

*San Bernardino Killers Took Target Practice In The Days Before Shootings*


> The FBI says both San Bernardino shooters honed their skills with target practice at gun ranges around the Los Angeles area before last week's attack. The FBI also believes that Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik had been radicalized for "quite some time," David Bowdich, of the FBI's Los Angeles office, said Monday.
> 
> "We do have evidence that both of the subjects participated in target practice in some ranges within the metro area or within the Los Angeles area," Bowdich said. "That target practice in one occasion was done within days of this event."
> 
> Bowdich also said that the FBI now believes that "both subjects were radicalized, and had been for quite some time."
> 
> He did not say how long the attackers had been radicalized or by whom, stressing that there is still no evidence that the shooters were connected to a terror group.
> 
> Bowdich also said that investigators had found enough material for 19 pipe bombs, not the 12 initially initially disclosed.
> 
> "Ultimately, it appears there are 19 pipes in that house that we have removed," he said.
> 
> Authorities are still trying to determine how the pair ended up with two assault-type rifles, that were purchased by a childhood friend of Farook. The other guns used in the attack were legally purchased by Farook.


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## illusion8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> While distasteful, the two types of incidents are not identical - a distinction has to be made between attacks on combatants in an active conflict zone and non-combatants.



Jihad is an ugly conflict. .I don't see how disgracing Jihadis or their manufacturers is distasteful...that's the least one can do other than bomb the crap out of such countries.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> You misunderstood my post - I argued that there is currently no significant advantage to India's 'joint terrorism force' proposal because it would only replicate existing military actions being undertaken under a different name. I did not suggest that current military or security operations in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, FATA, Balochistan or Karachi be terminated, just that India's proposal doesn't offer anything new and unique beyond the military actions already being undertaken.



A joint anti terrorism organisation isn't just military..its about countries joining together to share Intel, cooperate on anti terrorism, jointly take actions and impose sanctions on jihad spreading countries etc. No where does the proposal say that there has to be a joint military action...though a task force on UN lines would be desirable.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I don't really understand your question then - my argument is that many of the traditional Islamic Scholars promote a regressive and intolerant (to varying degrees) interpretation of Islam, and that these interpretations need to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars like Laleh Bakhtiar and furthering research into the more troubling interpretations and translations of the Quran and Hadith. In response to that argument you quoted the speech of an Islamic Scholar who you state is calling for 'Islam to be enforced upon humanity by force' (though I don't see that claim being made explicitly).
> 
> Assuming the scholar you quoted is making that particular claim, does he not then fall into that category of 'traditional Islamic Scholars promoting a regressive and intolerant interpretation of Islam' that I argued needs to be countered by promoting reformist Islamic Scholars?



Sorry to butt in..But how does one make a distinction of who is the sahi scholar. .

zakir naik for example is a pseudo traitor to he land he belongs to...but he attracts millions of followers..The saving grace is he does not advocate jihad and killing of kafirs..and argues on Islamic points....but he promotes anti secularism and intolerance to other religions at a sub level..For example. He says exactly what solomon quoted "because Islam is the only true religion..Muslims have a right to build mosques in every country..While non Muslims cannot build their worship places or practice their religion in Muslim nations".

If the Indian government puts a lid on him..millions of Muslims and funnily, non Muslims will stand up against the government. .because technically he hasn't done anything wrong..

He is supposedly the biggest and most famous scholar for millions sunnis in India...and he is in the forefront to promote intolerance...In what one could describe as "soft jihad". There's no "reformist" Islamic scholar that stands up against his views.

Owaisi is one more political example who has millions of followers in India. .and he calls for killing of all non Muslims overtly.

I would assume that the few reformist Islamic scholars have probably tried their best already. ...many would have tried to reform over the decades and have been either called takfiri and put to death or have been ignored as heretics.

It's just getting worse.

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Solomon2 said:


> Do you think you're doing an effective job of "taking them on" intellectually? Let alone confronting them politically?



Tell me what more can we do that we're not already doing? Terrorism in Pakistan has gone down, but it's still not finished. But we need to join hands with Christendom to finish off the khawarij ISIS/AQ, etc once and for all so we can all live in peace. This support can be intellectual, moral, etc, but we need to stop this madness. Too many lives have been lost to terrorism.



Solomon2 said:


> Either your #555 was edited



You know it wasn't edited. If it was, the post tells you that and your reply would show the original ''unedited'' post.



Solomon2 said:


> I read it incorrectly,



Yes you read it wrong.



Solomon2 said:


> in which case you have my apologies



Accepted.


----------



## Assange

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> That must have been a difficult decision to take. Leaving the religion doesn't change anything (except the life in the hereafter), discrimination moves to race, color, etc.



Actually that was really an easy decision...because I felt Islam to be more radical than ever now...And I am an activist who support women rights in my view Islam didn't provide women the freedom or equality to women equally when compared to men....


----------



## VCheng

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


>





pakdefender said:


> Hmmm this looks photoshopped , if you look closely at the font for the urdu word "Naam" and the font used to print the name in urdu , then same for the next Urdu word "Jinis" and the word "Aurat" , the font is again diffrent , same for all other data
> 
> For those of us who have Pakistani ID card issued , please take them out and have look at the font on your ID cards for the font used for "Naam" and your name that appears in urdu in front of it and the font used for all other headings and filled texts , they will be the same font , not different font
> 
> Also they photoshop chap got the "Tarikh e Paidaish" ( date of birth ) format wrong its written July 13 , 1986 .. the ID cards issued by NADRA have DOB format as DD/MM/YYYY and not MM DD, YYYY
> 
> Just notice that the photo itself looks "raised" from the back ground , in the Pakistani ID card the picture is smoothly part of the main ID card body
> 
> Very poor attempt at photoshopping





pakdefender said:


> No , the NDARA ID cards have identical fonts and have been identical since the time the computerized ID cards came , these cards are not hand generated
> 
> What you have posted is clearly photoshopped
> 
> View attachment 277357
> 
> 
> 
> One more addition , the place of signature where the word "Tashfeen" is written on white background is again wrong , the signature field on the cards seamless merges into the back ground





Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The NIC number shown is clearly traceable, Sir. Let NADRA confirm or deny it.





pakdefender said:


> I can tell you that the picture of the ID card you posted is fake





pakdefender said:


> It's not that I may be correct , I *AM* correct , this is a photoshopped copy
> 
> This copy of the ID card would not even pass off a basic check for authenticity
> 
> While its the official duty of NADRA to authenticate this , in what capacity are reuters and people like yourself circulating unverified and doctored copies of this id card ?



Here you go, Sirs:

"The copy of the Computerised National Identity Card (CNIC) of Tashfeen Malik, which surfaced in international publications and local social media,* has been found to be authentic*, according to the National Database and Registration Authority (NADRA) verification service."

Nadra records prove Tashfeen Malik's CNIC is not fake - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## r0ck

^

This is a badly worded article from Dawn (was expecting better from them to be honest).

The news article only states that the "CNIC number" seems to be in the name of the alleged lady as checked through NADRA's SMS service, that's all.

FWIW, it might be a totally different person with the same credentials.

It nowhere proves that the "CNIC copy" doing the rounds is authentic. IMO, that's a PS'd image.


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## VCheng

r0ck said:


> ^
> 
> This is a badly worded article from Dawn (was expecting better from them to be honest).
> 
> The news article only states that the "CNIC number" seems to be in the name of the alleged lady as checked through NADRA's SMS service, that's all.
> 
> FWIW, it might be a totally different person with the same credentials.
> 
> It nowhere proves that the "CNIC copy" doing the rounds is authentic. IMO, that's a PS'd image.



Okay, we can wait for an official statement by NADRA then, if you prefer that.


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## VCheng

Following the money trail:

*California terrorists got a $28k payment two weeks before attack - suspicious transfer revealed as FBI says couple had been radicalized for 'some time' and had rigged building to blow after massacre *

*Pipe bombs placed by Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik were supposed to detonate when first responders arrived on scene*
*But the bombs at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, California, never detonated*
*FBI says Farook and Malik were radicalized and had been 'for some time'*
*Investigators are also looking into a $28,000 deposit was made into Syed Farook’s bank account two weeks before the shooting*
*Farook visited Riverside Magnum Shooting Range twice in the days before the San Bernardino shooting, and Malik joined him at least once*


San Bernardino terrorists rigged building to blow up as first responders arrived | Daily Mail Online

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> Whereas I'm pointing out that IF the scholar is correct, THEN it's the belief that Islam is the one "true religion" that has to change for Islamic society to achieve tolerance. If there's room for different schools of Islamic thought, doesn't that imply there have to be different approaches to achieving tolerance as well?
> 
> Rather cunning, isn't he? Don't his rhetorical questions and comparisons rule out forms of Islamic practice that would allow non-Muslim communities to grow in size or even remain stable, leaving the listener to conclude that prevention or compulsion - that is,_ force_ - must be used against non-Muslims and backsliders?
> 
> Think of it this way: you're traveling and there's a fork in the road leading three different ways. Your guide and companion says you can't take the first or second ways. He doesn't explicitly say to take the third way: he leaves you to conclude that the only way to go is the third way - or else turn back.


You're essentially arguing against the ideological concept of "one true faith" (no matter what the religion is called), correct?



illusion8 said:


> Jihad is an ugly conflict. .I don't see how disgracing Jihadis or their manufacturers is distasteful...that's the least one can do other than bomb the crap out of such countries.


My comment was perhaps not phrased correctly - I was calling the alleged comments of Pakistanis directed at Indian soldiers killed by insurgent groups distasteful.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Starting with Talibans in 1980s and later Al Qaeeda in 1990s and now Daesh in 2010s these groups have hijacked Islam and using it for their criminal aims. Any Muslim that tries to reason with them is termed as Munafiq as they only consider their own followers as true Muslims. There are foreign powers that are manipulating these groups for their own political and strategic aims. Pakistan is stilling using Talibans in Afghanistan and Daesh is supported by Saudi Arabia, Zionazis and many western governments.


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## spinghar

again pakistani national? Are they Afghani by any chance?


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## Solomon2

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> You're essentially arguing against the ideological concept of "one true faith" (no matter what the religion is called), correct?.


The contrapositive is always true. So if what the scholar said is correct yet you reject the outcome he supports, then modifying the _IF_ part must be the way to go. Because the contrapostive is _always_ true, It's not _my_ argument but his: just stated as a double negative and inverse.

A little more on Islamic scholars and terrorism here:
*The Source Of Islamic Terrorist Justification*


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## VCheng

So who else knew?



*Shooting targets, GoPro packaging, hammer and 'vise grips' found by FBI in car belonging to San Bernardino shooter's MOTHER*

*Car registered to Rafia Farook was searched by FBI agents after her son and daughter-in-law massacred 14 last Wednesday *
*She lived in same house as where the couple amassed thousands of rounds of ammo and built pipe bombs*
*FBI agents raided Lexus registered in her name and seized list of items, including packaging for GoPro *
*Unclear what happened to camera as law enforcement say one was not used in course of mass murderers by ISIS-inspired husband and wife*
*Rafia Farook has not been charged but attorney-general has said her possible knowledge or involvement is being looked at 'very closely'*
*The family's lawyer says mother did not know her son was planning atrocity*

Shooting targets, GoPro packaging and hammer found in Syed Farook's mother's car | Daily Mail Online

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## Solomon2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> *California terrorists got a $28k payment two weeks before attack - suspicious transfer revealed -*


Whoa! No "lone wolf" white supremacist ever got external payments before carrying out an attack.



ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Any Muslim that tries to reason with them is termed as Munafiq as they only consider their own followers as true Muslims. There are foreign powers that are manipulating these groups for their own political and strategic aims...


I note that Jinnah refused to label anyone claiming to be a Muslim as munafiq. When did Pakistan abandon this?



> ...Pakistan is stilling using Talibans in Afghanistan and Daesh is supported by Saudi Arabia, Zionazis and many western governments.


What are "Zionazis", exactly? Is it supposed to be some insulting and inaccurate portmanteau for Zionists?


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## Azad-Kashmiri

Assange said:


> I felt Islam to be* more* radical than ever now



Islam hasn't changed, Muslims have. It's a shame from this one statement you left Islam without knowing it.



Assange said:


> support women rights in my view Islam didn't provide women the freedom or equality to women equally when compared to men



I'm interested to know what inequality you're talking about.


----------



## pakdefender

Solomon2 said:


> There's no need to go back in time more than a hundred years. The Ottoman Caliph enjoined upon his departing subjects and the League of Nations set up the Mandate of Palestine with the call for Jews to closely settle the area while preserving Arab and Jewish civil and property rights; Jews bought land from Arabs legally or settled on the remaining land granted them by the Caliph after the British chopped off 70% to become Jordan from where the Arabs then expelled the Jews; the Arabs told themselves they could take the Jews money in Mandate Palestine and then kill the Jews and regain the land they sold or wasn't theirs once the British departed. As the Brits left the Arabs decided to go to war and the Jews did what they had to to protect Jews' lives. That didn't involve massacring Arabs but defeating Arab arms and creating a defensible state to protect the lives of the citizenry.




even by just going back 100 years ask yourself why did jews want to buy lands in this area or settle in this ? it all goes back to the narrative of the exodus and the return , doesn't it

and it is that narrative that drives Zionists like yourself to resort to violence and land grab 

So my original question about reform in rabbinical judiasim stays valid


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## Solomon2

pakdefender said:


> even by just going back 100 years ask yourself why did jews want to buy lands in this area or settle in this...it is that narrative that drives Zionists like yourself to resort to violence and land grab


Read what you wrote, it's self-contradictory.


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## FullMetalJacket

pakdefender said:


> even by just going back 100 years ask yourself why did jews want to buy lands in this area or settle in this ? it all goes back to the narrative of the exodus and the return , doesn't it
> 
> and it is that narrative that drives Zionists like yourself to resort to violence and land grab
> 
> So my original question about reform in rabbinical judiasim stays valid


 
And what exactly did muslim invaders and conquerers do? Peacefully enter a country, and politely ask for the current rulers to step down, and kindly replace whatever faith they had with Islam? If it's history your're after, then what the Israelies did or are doing is nothing compared to what the muslims and the christians have done. Don't give me any of that zionist conspiracy crap either. So much hipocracy, it's astounding.

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## Dubious

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153130877991104






3 WHITE SHOOTERS = 1 brown Muslim + 1 brown Muslim woman 

Shoot the brown people than handcuff them and get a hero badge and enough Islamophobia across the nation to tilt it towards a bigot like Donald Duck! 

And as this is a government institution how come there is no camera recording to be shown? Maybe because it would show a "three tall men in black" ?! There are many questions unanswered, and probably we will not get answers soon......



San Bernardino police chief confirmed the same day that a third person fled from the SUV has been detained. But he also told that person may not be involved in the shooting. Sounds funny? A person who accompanied two shooters in the same SUV that was shot at by the police and two people are dead in a hail of bullets, but the third person survived the hail of bullets and he may not be involved in the crime. Certainly sounds spooky to me.

So crazy that one of the witness not only says she is certain they were 3 tall white men but also she described them wearing a "black long sleeve shirt with gloves" the suspect was hand cuffed while he is already dead and has a short sleeve shirt.

How come every time US or Western media has to pin the blame for an attacks on so called Muslim Islamic Religious fundamentalists. ..everything gets very murky...several eyewitnesses are claiming they saw 3 tall white males with athletic physique shooting and come to out find out the shooters were Muslim husband and wife...


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## Assange

Azad-Kashmiri said:


> Islam hasn't changed, Muslims have. It's a shame from this one statement you left Islam without knowing it.
> 
> I'm interested to know what inequality you're talking about.



Well I didn't leave Islam for that one statement....As you have said Muslims have changed so did interpretation of Islam's Holly Book, I really feel Islam is still in stone ages it should be updated this is my personal view....

Secondly about women rights...I think Muslim men are so used to it that they do not consider some stuff which are imposed on women are humane but it is not....Let's just take burka or Hjab or whatever you say...in few communities I have seen elders want women to even cover their eyes using that black cloth....women are not allowed to have their own mobile phones...education is another problem...child marriages in Islam have increased when a girl attends the age 14 she gets married to someone.... we impose so many things on women but when it comes men we don't care...men can wear whatever they want, a male can have multiple wives...etc etc...

Moreover it is my choice to follow whichever religion I want to, having said that let us not discuss about this anymore....I feel I left Islam for good....


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## VCheng

The Denial Brigade is now claiming that three white men shot up the place. How interesting these conspiracy theorists can get. Next we will hear they were not circumcised and had skull tattoos too. 

================================================

San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook was planning attack in 2012 with someone else | Daily Mail Online

*Hunt for a THIRD terrorist linked to San Bernardino attackers: Syed Farook planned attack in 2012 with someone else - and his wife could have been a terror 'operative'*

*Farook and an unidentified person conspired in 2012 and a specific target was considered, officials said*
*But they did not go through with the earlier attack after several terror-related arrests in the area had them ‘spooked'*
*Officials also announced that they are investigating the possibility that his wife and fellow attacker Tashfeen Malik was ‘an operative’*
*Farook and Malik are believed to have been radicalized ‘for some time’*
*Another investigation underway into a $28,500 loan from an online lender that Farook took out two weeks before the shooting rampage *

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## Stag112

Not one person has the honesty to talk about the POPULAR SUPPORT terrorism enjoys in Pakistan. To even expect pakistanis to even acknowledge terrorism against Indians would be too big a task, what with pakistani elites lining up to marry their kids to dawoods kids etc etc, but tens of thousands of pakistanis (including uniformed men) showing up and giving a heros funeral to mir kasi, who carried out terrorism in USA???












Here is a fact - pakistani moral compass is broken. Most of the non resident pakistanis are concerned for own safety thats all.

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## Dubious

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> How interesting these conspiracy theorists can get.


so witness (before the 2 were caught) were conspiracy ...interesting ...what denial mushroom have you been smoking?


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## VCheng

Stag112 said:


> Not one person has the honesty to talk about the POPULAR SUPPORT terrorism enjoys in Pakistan.



Terrorism does NOT enjoy widespread support in Pakistan. After all, Pakistanis themselves have been killed by the tens of thousands. What is more accurate to say is that a majority of the Pakistani population sympathize with radicals as they themselves have fallen to the radicalization process being carried out for decades now.


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## Dubious

Yup I hear conspiracy based on the witness hallucinating :

NBC is reporting that police are looking for 3 white males dressed in military gear*.

LIVE SHOOTING IN SAN BERNARDINO, CA — UPDATED | The American Spectator



eyewitness have since come forward, claiming they saw three men in black masks fleeing the scene with long rifles in hand. Find out all the details here.


“Witnesses told police they saw three men with long rifles,” a law enforcement source told CNN. The source also said, “the suspects got into a black SUV and drove away.” So while police hunt down the suspected shooters, SWAT teams and the bomb squad are working to clear the buildings where the shootings took place. The bomb squad actually found a suspicious package on the second floor of one of the buildings, but it’s not clear if the package and shootings are related.

*

“Witness *Sally Abdelmageed*, who works at the Inland Regional Center and witnessed the shooting in San Bernardino, was interviewed live via telephone by CBS Evening News the day the massacre happened.

“The news anchor begins ‘She saw the attackers enter the building, and we spoke to her by phone.’

‘We saw three men dressed in military attire,’ she says. ‘I couldn’t see his face, he had a black hat on… black cargo pants on, the kind with zippers on the side… He had a huge assault rifle a lot of ammo…

She continues, ‘They opened up the door to building then he starts to, you know, shoot all over into the room – that’s the room we have conferences in…

‘I called 911 and I just hid under my desk..

‘As I was talking to the dispatch, we went into my manager’s office and locked the doors..’

*‘Mrs. Abdelmageed, can you describe to me in as much details as you can what did the gunman look like?’* the CBS anchor asks.

‘I couldn’t see his face, he had a black hat on. All I could see was a black hat, black long-sleeved shirt… He had extra ammo. He was probably ready for something, to reload – I don’t know know…

*‘I just saw three, dressed exactly the same.* They looked like they were athletic build, and um, they appeared to be tall…’

*‘You’re certain that you saw three men?’* the news anchor asks.

*‘Yeah,’* she replies, as she continues to describe the THREE WHITE MEN, their muscular build, etc.


BUSTED! San Bernadino shooters were three white men dressed in military attire | Veterans Today

In case you missed the news (which you wont find on their website  )
the website has the recording/ clip Witness Describes the San Bernardino Shooting: 3 tall White Men with Athletic Build | Conspiracyclub


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## Stag112

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Terrorism does NOT enjoy widespread support in Pakistan. After all, Pakistanis themselves have been killed by the tens of thousands. What is more accurate to say is that a majority of the Pakistani population sympathize with radicals as they themselves have fallen to the radicalization process being carried out for decades now.



I dont understand what you wrote. So you are saying those tens of thousands of pakistanis who showed up for mir kasis funeral considered him a hero but denounced his terrorist acts?

Does not add up. There is clear suppor for terrorism against civilians, of course except when their own are targetted. There is no moral compass, it has been replaced by religious mumbo jumbo.


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## mpk1988

Lmao.. Now we have people posting from conspiracy club and Steven Seagal videos..




No wonder these people get brainwashed so easily. They have shit filled in their brains..

At one point it's not just mere stupidity.. It's the audacity of the denial!! Pathetic and shameless.

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## VCheng

Stag112 said:


> I dont understand what you wrote. So you are saying those tens of thousands of pakistanis who showed up for mir kasis funeral considered him a hero but denounced his terrorist acts?
> 
> Does not add up. There is clear suppor for terrorism against civilians, of course except when their own are targetted.



Let me clarify: Pakistanis themselves have suffered the most from terrorist acts within Pakistan. They do not support those at all. However, their brainwashing to see similar acts of terror perpetrated _elsewhere _as some sort of noble jihad leads them to be supportive of such activities. What they do not realize is that both are equally abhorrent.

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## Stag112

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let me clarify: Pakistanis themselves have suffered the most from terrorist acts within Pakistan. They do not support those at all. However, their brainwashing to see similar acts of terror perpetrated _elsewhere _as some sort of noble jihad leads them to be supportive of such activities. What they do not realize is that both are equally abhorrent.



Oh now I get it. Thats not saying much though. Obviously when someone supports terrorism, they support it against someone else and not against themselves. I hope you realise what you wrote in no way negates my assertion of popular support, you only qualified it with a truism.

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## VCheng

Stag112 said:


> Oh now I get it. Thats not saying much though. Obviously when someone supports terrorism, they support it against someone else and not against themselves. I hope you realise what you wrote in no way negates my assertion of popular support, you only qualified it with a truism.



It is important to realize that human nature is similar no matter which side of this particular issue one looks at.

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## my2cents

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Terrorism does NOT enjoy widespread support in Pakistan. After all, Pakistanis themselves have been killed by the tens of thousands. What is more accurate to say is that a majority of the Pakistani population sympathize with radicals as they themselves have fallen to the radicalization process being carried out for decades now.



I always feel that too much religion is bad for your faith. It is a slippery slope to radicalization and intolerance. It applies to adherents of all religions. The level of intolerance on others differ by society.

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## VCheng

my2cents said:


> I always feel that too much religion is bad for your faith. It is a slippery slope to radicalization and intolerance. It applies to adherents of all religions. The level of intolerance on others differ by society.



Religion by itself, on a personal level, is perfectly okay. Mixing it with matters of state is the fatal mistake.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Akheilos said:


> Yup I hear conspiracy based on the witness hallucinating :
> 
> NBC is reporting that police are looking for 3 white males dressed in military gear*.*



The description of three white males simply means they were not "East Asian or black".

Oddly many people outside the US think American/European white people on immediately seeing a non-european person think "non-white" in their heads...that is not the case.

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## VCheng

Hamartia Antidote said:


> The description of three white males simply means they were not "East Asian or black".
> 
> Oddly many people outside the US think American/European white people on immediately seeing a non-european person think "non-white" in their heads...that is not the case.



People in a state of panic do all sorts of funny things in recalling events. That is a fact.


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## Dubious

mpk1988 said:


> Lmao.. Now we have people posting from conspiracy club and Steven Seagal videos..


Well we also have on the website...O of course you wouldnt click it 

The "voice recordings" mainstream media was playing WHEN the ATTACKS WERE Happening not later after shooting and handcuffing 2 people who fit the profile!



Hamartia Antidote said:


> he description of three white males simply means they were not "East Asian or black"


Fair enough but how did that make one a female? 



Hamartia Antidote said:


> Oddly many people outside the US think American/European white people on immediately seeing a non-european person think "non-white" in their heads...that is not the case.


It isnt even why I put it up there...A Syrian or Iranian would be mistaken for a white ...


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## mpk1988

Akheilos said:


> Well we also have on the website...O of course you wouldnt click it



This is not coherent. Please make it clear so that I can reply.


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## Dubious

mpk1988 said:


> This is not coherent. Please make it clear so that I can reply.


Really? Which part? that mainstream media aired it or the part that you are supposed to read a whole post in context not select few lines and wonder what they mean...


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## mpk1988

Akheilos said:


> Really? Which part? that mainstream media aired it or the part that you are supposed to read a whole post in context not select few lines and wonder what they mean...



What context am I supposed to infer when posters allege that it was 3 white males responsible for this mess? How retarded and deluded must one be to actually search and come up with that?


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## Dubious

mpk1988 said:


> What context am I supposed to infer when posters allege that it was 3 white males responsible for this mess?


The very fact it was CBN or something that was playing that when the shooting was going on and CNN also....



mpk1988 said:


> How retarded and deluded must one be to actually search and come up with that?


You mean to actually watch the news and hear the news is retarded and deluded?! Go figure! No wonder indians are as they are


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## mpk1988

Akheilos said:


> The very fact it was CBN or something that was playing that when the shooting was going on and CNN also....
> 
> 
> You mean to actually watch the news and hear the news is retarded and deluded?! Go figure! No wonder indians are as they are



Yes.. Please go on with your theory about it being a false flag attack. That sounds highly logical. Don't forget to highlight this at international press conferences and draw attention to it. Let's see how you fare. What say?

and again, comprehension and English fail you.. No wonder you are where you are.. 
I just finished my Doctorate in Nanoelectronics from a leading research centre in Europe and so have many of my fellow countrymen here.. so I do know where I stand.


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## Dubious

mpk1988 said:


> Please go on with your theory about it being a false flag attack.


did I say it is a false attack? I dared to question how witness seeing 3 white male became a female?



mpk1988 said:


> That sounds highly logical.


and eye witness seeing 3 white males in military uniform - eye witnesses described the clothes which didnt match the Muslim guy...Apparently he is used to running away while changing his clothes ...VERY LOGICAL! 

3 WHITE MEN = 1 man and 1 woman shot and handcuffed?



mpk1988 said:


> and again, comprehension and English fail you.


so eye witness were fake...ok 



mpk1988 said:


> I just finished my Doctorate in Nanoelectronics


how is that related to English?



mpk1988 said:


> No wonder you are where you are..


Cheap remark! Shows mental level despite having a doctorate degree 



mpk1988 said:


> so have many of my fellow countrymen here


and so?



mpk1988 said:


> so I do know where I stand.


Speak for yourself very incoherent! 
You are accusing eye witness of being false because media has shot and handcuffed someone who fits your idea of a wanted people 

You are trying to vouch for some random online people just coz they have your county's flag BECAUSE some of your countrymen have completed PhD? 

Man talk about logic!


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## illusion8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> You're essentially arguing against the ideological concept of "one true faith" (no matter what the religion is called), correct?
> 
> 
> My comment was perhaps not phrased correctly - I was calling the alleged comments of Pakistanis directed at Indian soldiers killed by insurgent groups distasteful.



You are avoiding my direct questions. .

1. I asked you when Pakistan deems it right to use military power to attack jihadis..why is it wrong when others do it?.

2. When zakir naik who is the spiritual leader for millions of sunnis advocates that "Muslims have the right to build mosques and maddrasahs in non Muslim countries..non Muslims should not build their places of worship or advocate their religion in Muslim countries because Islam is the true religion. .doesn't it highlight what solomon points to the bigotry of Muslims? .

But I understand you getting uncomfortable when faced with reason..

But let's get to topic..

One issue that rankles me regarding the two major jihadi attacks recently..

1. The Paris attack that killed 130 innocents..

And 2. The American attacks.

Here's what's troubling..

1.
“The last time I heard from him was four or five months ago via Skype. As usual, he didn’t say where he was or what he was doing. He spoke a lot about jihad. What can I say? It was like talking to someone different, someone who had been brainwashed. There wasn’t anything more to say to him.
Paris attacks: police identify third Bataclan assailant | World news | The Guardian

2.
“Farook’s mother lived with the couple but she stayed upstairs and didn’t notice they had stockpiled 12 pipe bombs and well over 4,500 rounds of ammunition.”

Farook’s mother didn’t notice the twelve pipe bombs and well over 4,500 rounds of ammunition because she “stayed upstairs”? Was she an invalid, then, who never ventured downstairs at all? If so, why did the couple leave their six-month-old daughter in her care when they went off to shoot Infidels for Allah?

And now it has come out that Mom did venture downstairs now and again after all, and that her eye may indeed have caught the site of a stray pipe bomb or two. According to the Daily Mail, “FBI agents found an empty GoPro package, shooting targets and tools inside a car belonging to” Rafia Farook, Syed’s mother. Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik mounted GoPro cameras on their body armor before they began their jihad massacre; apparently, like other jihad killers before them, they hoped to cheer and encourage the faithful with scenes of the bloodbath. Authorities are investigating the possibility that Rafia Farook aided in the planning and preparation of the San Bernardino jihad massacre.

Rafia might have taken this car to meetings of the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), of which she was an active member. ICNA openly supports Sharia and the caliphate, and has links to the Muslim Brotherhood, as well as to the Pakistani jihad group Jamaat-e-Islami.
old man Farook said that his son was an open supporter of the Islamic State, and, of course, hated Israel: “He said he shared the ideology of al-Baghdadi to create an Islamic state, and he was obsessed with Israel.” Moderate “unbeliever” Papa then told his son to bide his time since, in the immortal words of Tom Lehrer, everybody hated the Jews: “I kept telling him always: stay calm, be patient, in two years Israel will no longer exist. Geopolitics is changing: Russia, China, America too, nobody wants the Jews there.” Moderate!

So right in the heart of sunny Redlands, California, where Syed Rizwan and Tashfeen lived with their baby and Rafia (however safely ensconced upstairs, away from the pipe bombs, Grandma may have been), there was an open supporter of the Islamic State and an open supporter of the concept of the caliphate. Then we must not forget the winsome Tashfeen, whopledged allegiance to the Islamic State during the attack, was linked to a jihadi mosque in Pakistan, and who had become, in one of her teacher’s words, “a religious person” who often told people “to live according to the teachings of Islam.” 
Meet the Farooks: The Modern Jihad Family | Frontpage Mag


In both cases..The families did not report their jihadi off springs..and after the act has been committed...feign ignorance about their off spring's jihadi ways.

If the parents had reported their jihadi off spring's activities..many innocent lives would have been saved.

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## mpk1988

Akheilos said:


> did I say it is a false attack? I dared to question how witness seeing 3 white male became a female?
> 
> 
> and eye witness seeing 3 white males in military uniform - eye witnesses described the clothes which didnt match the Muslim guy...Apparently he is used to running away while changing his clothes ...VERY LOGICAL!
> 
> 3 WHITE MEN = 1 man and 1 woman shot and handcuffed?
> 
> 
> so eye witness were fake...ok
> 
> how is that related to English?
> 
> 
> Cheap remark! Shows mental level despite having a doctorate degree
> 
> 
> and so?
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself very incoherent!
> You are accusing eye witness of being false because media has shot and handcuffed someone who fits your idea of a wanted people
> 
> You are trying to vouch for some random online people just coz they have your county's flag BECAUSE some of your countrymen have completed PhD?
> 
> Man talk about logic!



Really.. What about the other eye witnesses and people who said that it was clearly farook and his wife?


San Bernardino Shooting Witness: "I Thought I Was Going To Die" - BuzzFeed News

They are fake I guess.. 

How is that related to English? You completely misunderstood what I said I said and went ahead and hinted at me saying that listening to and following the news was retarded and deluded.
No no you're right. Just amazing comprehension and English skills there.

I was talking about the mental state of people searching and coming up with conspiracies in the time of a tragedy because apparently saving the face of religion is more important that human lives.

Cheap remark.. Wait let me refresh your memory:

*"No wonder indians are as they are "*

A very apt reply to that snide and classless statement I would say.

I have given accounts of other eyewitnesses and it's freely available on the internet.

But guess what.. you search for reasons or even the tiniest shred of doubts to save religion in the face of this unspeakable tragedy. That is more important to you. It's this apologist mindset that helps terrorism. There is no saving for people who will always put blind faith and indoctrination above humanity. Trust me on this.

I don't know who you are.. but trust me.. learn to put humanity above faith.


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## Dubious

illusion8 said:


> 2. When zakir naik who is the spiritual leader for millions of sunnis advocates that "Muslims have the right to build mosques and maddrasahs in non Muslim countries..non Muslims should not build their places of worship or advocate their religion in Muslim countries because Islam is the true religion. .doesn't it highlight what solomon points to the bigotry of Muslims? .


I have never heard him say this  

2ndly most Pakistanis dont take him as any spiritual leaders....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

illusion8 said:


> You are avoiding my direct questions.


I answered the first part of your post, I just don't have the time to get into a detailed response to the rest of your post or @Solomon2 comments right now.

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## Dubious

illusion8 said:


> two major jihadi attacks


when using words, it is best to familiarize with them...Jihad is an ARABIC word meaning to strive...


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## illusion8

Akheilos said:


> Man talk about logic!



So...where are the farook's? And why is their family on press trying to feign ignorance about the knowledge that their offspring's went jihadi?. Their 6 month old baby is waiting for its parents..



Akheilos said:


> when using words, it is best to familiarize with them...Jihad is an ARABIC word meaning to strive...



I read and write English..not Arabic. .and in English..its called a jihadi attack.

You heard of jihadi John and jihadi Jane?


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## Dubious

mpk1988 said:


> They are fake I guess..


 The very thread you are commenting on says this: 


ArsalanKhan21 said:


> "*Up to three people entered the building and opened fire *on people inside the building," Burguan said at a news





mpk1988 said:


> How is that related to English? You completely misunderstood what I said I said and went ahead and hinted at me saying that listening to and following the news was retarded and deluded.


You said it was retarded I quoted you:



mpk1988 said:


> How retarded and deluded must one be* to actually search and come up with that?*



You mean to *actually watch the news and hear the news is retarded and deluded*?! Go figure! No wonder indians are as they are 

Source: 14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose | Page 48


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## mpk1988

Akheilos said:


> The very thread you are commenting on says this:



Yes.. That was clear from the very start. Three people. The police said they were searching for one more other than the couple.


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## Styx

they were wahhabis, they did what wahhabis are commanded to by the perfect written word of the one true god... go and kill infidels.

pretty open-and-shut case really. 

@mpk1988 .. have a look at this thread for some lulz, my mind was blown.


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## VCheng

It's all in the family, apparently:

"In yet another twist to the case, state marital records examined by Reuters on Tuesday revealed that *the man said by authorities to have furnished the couple with the two assault-style rifles used in the attack was related by marriage to Farook's family*. Specifically, Enrique Marquez, whose home was raided over the weekend and was being questioned by federal investigators on Tuesday, became married last year to Mariya Chernykh, whose sister is married to Farook's older brother, Raheel Farook."

Gun Supplier In California Shooting Connected To Syed Farook's Family


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## Styx

Akheilos said:


> Jihad is an ARABIC word meaning to strive


and gay is an english word that means "happy"

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## illusion8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I answered the first part of your post, I just don't have the time to get into a detailed response to the rest of your post or @Solomon2 comments right now.



I don't need a detailed answer...Please justify..PA and PAF bombarding jihadi vs others bombarding jihadis in a simple reply.



Akheilos said:


> I have never heard him say this
> 
> 2ndly most Pakistanis dont take him as any spiritual leaders....



Search on YouTube. .zakir naik interview in a PakistanI channel.


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## Dubious

illusion8 said:


> So...where are the farook's? And *why is theor family on press trying to feign ignorance* about the knowledge that their offspring's went jihadi?.


sorry what?

2ndly, I dont know a thing about him...I am still trying to figure out how 3 men running from police managed a plastic surgery and 1 ended up becoming a woman 



illusion8 said:


> I read and write English..not Arabic. .and in English..its called a jihadi attack.


Jihad isnt even an English word so how can it be what you claim it? Coz someone told you so? SO if someone tomorrow tells you that Hinduism's god is ALLAH will you believe it automatically? Or that the india now is to be called Pakistan coz it is to be referred to as Pakistan....



illusion8 said:


> You heard of jihadi John and jihadi Jane?


I found it stupid to the core....coz to me it sounds like BS! 

You want to put Arabic jihadi than john and jane? 

If Jihad is adopted by English to be used for John and Jane than why link it to Islam? its English now ....Jihadi Hindu, Jihadi Christians and Jihadi Jews, makes sense? If not than why Jihadi John and Jane?



illusion8 said:


> Search on YouTube. .zakir naik interview in a PakistanI channel.


Put it up here....I am interested in knowing what new BS is flowing on media



Geralt said:


> for some lulz


why? @waz @Slav Defence 

open invitation to troll or be ignorant?



Geralt said:


> and gay is an english word that means "happy"


it is...  any problems?


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## Styx

Akheilos said:


> why? @waz @Slav Defence
> 
> open invitation to troll or be ignorant?


because of the batshit insane religious mumbo jumbo needlessly swarming and weighing down what is basically a really nice thing someone is trying to do ?

these wahhabis are crazy and beyond help. 



Akheilos said:


> it is...  any problems?


just that in today's world 'jihad' means terror ?

jihad al nafs , jihad al ashgar .. good luck explaining it to the world.

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## illusion8

Akheilos said:


> sorry what?
> 
> 2ndly, I dont know a thing about him...I am still trying to figure out how 3 men running from police managed a plastic surgery and 1 ended up becoming a woman
> 
> 
> Jihad isnt even an English word so how can it be what you claim it? Coz someone told you so? SO if someone tomorrow tells you that Hinduism's god is ALLAH will you believe it automatically? Or that the india now is to be called Pakistan coz it is to be referred to as Pakistan....
> 
> 
> I found it stupid to the core....coz to me it sounds like BS!
> 
> You want to put Arabic jihadi than john and jane?
> 
> If Jihad is adopted by English to be used for John and Jane than why link it to Islam? its English now ....Jihadi Hindu, Jihadi Christians and Jihadi Jews, makes sense? If not than why Jihadi John and Jane?
> 
> 
> Put it up here....I am interested in knowing what new BS is flowing on media
> 
> 
> why? @waz @Slav Defence
> 
> open invitation to troll or be ignorant?
> 
> 
> it is...  any problems?




Lol..no..I cannot win an argument with a lady..never have..The wavelengths don't match..

Men are simple beings..significance of jihad or jihadi does not concern men..its the thought behind the action that counts. 

Men don't argue about inordinate things. I hope I am not sounding sexist.

As for the video..I am on a slow mobile network..I have seen that video many times. .so search for it..or take my word for it...I will post it here later.


Plastic surgery..3 men?..what's this? Conspiracy theory?..what happened to the jihadi wife's pakistani passport?.

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## VCheng

It is important to note that Malik's own father accepts his daughter's role in the shootings. How come he is not mentioning the "three white men"? 

"The father of San Bernardino shooter Tashfeen Malik on Wednesday said he was saddened by the terror attack and does not know why she took part. "I am in such pain that I cannot even describe it," Gulzar Ahmad Malik told The Associated Press by phone from Jiddah, Saudi Arabia."

'Only God Knows Why': San Bernardino Shooter Tashfeen Malik's Father Condemns Attack - NBC News

The Conspiracy Theorists are BSC obviously.

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## Dubious

illusion8 said:


> Lol..no..I cannot win an argument with a lady..never have..The wavelengths don't match..
> 
> Men are simple beings..significance of jihad or jihadi does not concern men..its the thought behind the action that counts.
> 
> Men don't argue about inordinate things. I hope I am not sounding sexist.
> 
> As for the video..I am on a slow mobile network..I have seen that video many times. .so search for it..or take my word for it...I will post it here later.
> 
> 
> Plastic surgery..3 men?..what's this? Conspiracy theory?..what happened to the jihadi wife's pakistani passport?.


Let me break it down for you....

1) When a French word is borrowed and merged into English, does it change its meaning? 
2) tag me when you post 
3) There was also a "fake" passport of a refugee in Paris...what does that tell you? Passports now a days are bomb proof like from 9/11....A closed metal tube (airplane) blows up and somehow the passport of the passenger inside the tube is found on the road (unburnt unscratched) while the people in the tube are cooked...NOW THAT sounds like a conspiracy, no?

4) as for the 3 white man...it is a recording from the tv news which (when the shooting was going on) was airing it as "several eye witness" had actually said 3 tall white men and even described the clothing! Now you can call it conspiracy but the truth is those who heard it on the news before a BROWN woman was caught know what they heard!


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## VCheng

http://www.economist.com/news/unite...o-americas-defences-against-jihadism-are-high

*American jihadists*
*The home-grown threat*
*Despite the attack in San Bernardino, America’s defences against jihadism are high*







*YOU do not need to be Donald Trump to be confused by the massacre Syed Rizwan Farook and his Pakistani wife, Tashfeen Malik, carried out in San Bernardino, California, on December 2nd. The couple responsible for the deadliest act of terrorism in America since 2001 were well-educated, affluent and unknown to the police. Mr Farook earned $70,000 a year as a government inspector; his brother served in the navy. Unlike ne’er-do-well European jihadists, with their uncouth accents and mugged-up theology, the killers were quiet, unremarkable middle-class Muslims.*

Their target, a get-together of Mr Farook’s colleagues at a suburban health centre, was so banal investigators at first suspected the massacre of 14 people was a case of workplace rage. Even the fact that the couple turned out to have kept an arsenal at home and practised on gun ranges was only alarming in retrospect. Millions of Americans do the same. A few minutes before going postal, they dropped off their six-month-old daughter with Mr Farook’s mother, claiming to have a doctor’s appointment: *Mr Farook and Ms Malik were the jihadists next door.*

*There are two starkly opposed ways of understanding this banality. The first, exemplified by President Barack Obama, is to find it almost reassuring.* In an address from the Oval Office on December 6th he said the attack reflected America’s success in preventing more spectacular terrorist violence. While promising one or two security measures—including checks on the fiancé visa on which Ms Malik entered America—he also urged Americans to see the killing in the context of an already violent society: “As we’ve become better at preventing complex, multifaceted attacks like 9/11, terrorists turned to less complicated acts of violence like the mass-shootings that are all too common.” The best way to foil them, Mr Obama added, was to keep calm and carry on. “Our success won’t depend on tough talk, or abandoning our values, or giving into fear. That’s what groups like [Islamic State] are hoping for.”

*The alternative, demonstrated by Mr Trump, is to conclude that, since such Muslim maniacs are hard to detect, all Muslims must be considered suspect.* “We have to look at mosques. We have no choice. We have to see what is happening because something is happening in there. Man, is there anger!” mused the front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination. His solution was a perfect rebuke to Mr Obama: Mr Trump called “for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on”.

*The facts are with the president.* Since 9/11, over 400,000 people have been killed by gunfire in America and 45 by jihadist violence, of whom half died in two shootings: one carried out by a Muslim army doctor in Texas in 2009, the other in San Bernardino. France has so far suffered seven fatal jihadist attacks this year, costing 150 lives; America has suffered nine at home in 14 years. And though the government has raised its threat levels, fearing San Bernardino could augur an uptick, that is partly a matter of due diligence. “I see the threat as being relatively consistent since 9/11,” says Raymond Kelly, who served as New York’s police commissioner between 2002 and 2013, and now works for a corporate snooper, K2 Intelligence.

*Three things account for America’s relative security. The first is its distance from the Middle East; the second is decent law enforcement, especially by the FBI*, which since 2001 has partly turned itself into the internal spy agency America lacked. Its counter-terrorism staff, whose number has grown by 2,000, are investigating links to IS in 50 states. *By far the most important reason, however, is that American Muslims are less interested in being radicalised than their European counterparts.*

*They are richer, better educated and altogether better integrated into the mainstream. Though less than 1% of America’s population, they account for 10% of its doctors*; in 2011, less than half said that most of their closest friends were Muslims. Plainly, *IS, which has flooded the internet with jihadist propaganda, represents a new test to that moderation. Yet, as a rule, American Muslims are probably less tempted by a genocidal medieval revival act than any others in the West. While more than 5,000 Europeans have joined IS, fewer than 250 Americans are thought to have tried to—of whom, estimates Peter Bergen, author of a forthcoming book on American jihadists, only two dozen succeeded*.

*This also makes American Muslims unusually likely to report suspected jihadists to the police.* According to Mohamed Magid, a Virginia-based imam who has advised the administration on radicalisation, *42% of the jihadist plots rumbled since 2001 were reported by suspicious Muslims. *That includes a recent case within his own congregation, in which the parents of a 16-year-old youth, Ali Amin, reported his interest in IS. He was sentenced in August to 11 years in prison after pleading guilty to fund-raising for IS and helping another American teenager, Reza Niknejad, join it. Mr Amin was radicalised online by IS agents in Canada and Britain. “It doesn’t matter where the recruiter is so long as there is internet,” said Mr Magid. “But thank God his parents came forward.”

*That is why Mr Trump’s demagoguery, occasioned as much by a bad poll for the blow-hard in Iowa as the massacre in California, is so dangerous, as well as wrong. Americans are lucky. Their defences against jihadism are high. But that is provided Muslims are manning them, which Mr Trump has already made less likely.*

At an Islamic Centre in Jersey City, whose large Muslim population Mr Trump had previously accused, mendaciously, of celebrating 9/11, people are rattled. “When we heard about the Paris and California attacks, first thing that comes to our mind is, ‘Oh God, please don’t let it be a Muslim’,” says Ahmed Shedeed, the centre’s president. “The good thing is we look like Latinos,” he adds. Given how Mr Trump once denigrated Mexicans as rapists, that shows how his campaign has moved on.

From the print edition: United States

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## Vassnti

Akheilos said:


> 2ndly, I dont know a thing about him...I am still trying to figure out how 3 men running from police managed a plastic surgery and 1 ended up becoming a woman


 
Short answer because people are idiots. Eye witnesses have identified black guys as the perpetrator when the actual criminal was white, male female in body armor is an easy mistake to make.

Long version:

*Reconstructing MemoriesThe uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording. Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witnesss testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall.
Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subjects parents shopped. After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies.
*

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts - Scientific American#

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## Dubious

Vassnti said:


> Short answer because people are idiots. Eye witnesses have identified black guys as the perpetrator when the actual criminal was white, male female in body armor is an easy mistake to make.
> 
> Long version:
> 
> *Reconstructing MemoriesThe uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording. Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witnesss testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall.
> Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subjects parents shopped. After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies.
> *
> 
> Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts - Scientific American#


So insisting eye witness is lying:
Eyewitness to San Bernardino Terror Attack Still Says ‘three tall white men did it’ | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization
Third eyewitness to San Bernardino shooting says it wasn't Sayd Farook.

Third Eyewitness To San Bernardino Shooting Says It Wasn't 'Terror Couple' Who Carried Out Attack - Counter Current News

the people who carried out the attack were very athletic, large, Caucasian men, who were three – not two – in number. Farook’s wife, it should be remembered weighed approximately 90lbs.

Third Eyewitness To San Bernardino Shooting Says It Wasn’t ‘Terror Couple’ Who Carried Out Attack » Infowars Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

San Bernardino Shooting Witnesses Claim 3 White Men, Not The Muslim ‘Terror Couple’, Carried Out The Attacks AnonHQ

Eyewitnesses insist ’3 shooters’ in San Bernardino


Well this video doesnt run nor tdoes the page load anymore...It was loading before (dont remember when): http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/sur...ness-account-san-bernardino-shooting-35647312


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## Hamartia Antidote

Akheilos said:


> Third Eyewitness To San Bernardino Shooting Says It Wasn't 'Terror Couple' Who Carried Out Attack - Counter Current News








He isn't adamant about him not being the shooter. He just says he is shocked that it was him since he was such a quiet person.


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## Dubious

Hamartia Antidote said:


> He isn't adamant about him not being the shooter. He just says he is shocked that it was him since he was such a quiet person.


Newspaper seems to report differently...


Akheilos said:


> Third eyewitness to San Bernardino shooting says* it wasn't Sayd Farook*.


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## VCheng

Hamartia Antidote said:


> He isn't adamant about him not being the shooter. He just says he is shocked that it was him since he was such a quiet person.



The family knows it was the two of them who did it. Funny on how some choose to ignore the facts as a sign of their deranged thinking, just like when OBL was killed and his wives attested to it.


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## Dubious

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Funny on how some choose to ignore the facts as a sign of their deranged thinking, just like when OBL was killed and his wives attested to it.


Funny how some educated people portray *questioning anything they cant reply to or refuse to believe of think down the path of thinking beyond what is fed to them* (questioning is the very basis of learning) as something wrong ...To me it sounds VERY similar to the Mullahs who send you to hell for asking ANY questions which they either dont know or cant phantom as thinking out of the box 

RIP literate educated people!

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## VCheng

Apparently, the cost of mounting the terror attack by Syed and Malik was below $5k:

The Price of Terror? About $4500 - NBC News

"*How much does it cost to kill 14 people and terrorize a city?*

*About $4,500, according to an NBC News analysis* of the pre-tax cost of the guns and explosives assembled by Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik for their attack on an office holiday party in San Bernardino, California on Wednesday, Dec. 2.

In addition to a low cost, the ingredients also proved very easy to gather on short notice.* It took just two hours and stops at three chain stores* not far from the scene of the attack to buy the parts for remote-controlled bombs similar to those that Farook and Malik assembled in their garage bomb factory.

We found that four remote-controlled cars cost less than $300 before taxes at a chain store, while we spent about $550 on galvanized pipe. Four pounds of explosive powder, which required us to show a driver's license and fill out a form, ran just over $100. With Christmas tree lights and a few additional items, the total cost for bomb parts came to $959.45. (Computing the cost of the same items on-line yielded much cheaper pipes and more expensive powder, and came out to about $800.)

We then went shopping for the most expensive items on the list, the guns and ammo the couple used to murder Farook's fellow San Bernardino County government employees. At a Riverside, California gun store, we priced two assault-style rifles and two 9mm handguns like those carried by Farook and Malik. The handguns were $725, the assault-style rifles were $1450. Malik and Farook had assembled 1700 rounds of 9mm and .223 ammunition, which would have cost just under $600. The total price for the guns and ammo: Less than $3000.

The last item on the shopping list was the rental of an SUV like that Malik and Farook drove to the scene of the massacre, and in which they died not far from their Redlands home in a shootout with police. A two-day SUV rental would run about $440, bringing* the total cost of the ingredients in the terror plan to about $4500.*"


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## Solomon2

It's getting uglier...after the almost-ritual denunciations of terror, worshipers at the mosque the suspects frequented are rejecting the call for greater self-policing - that is, if the suspects chose to carry out terror, it's all the fault of non-Muslims, despite the fact that family and likely some members of the community were aware of the suspect's home arsenal of guns, bullets, and pipe bombs. The Muslim Brotherhood's CAIR's current priority is trying to ensure that the suspects' orphaned infant is adopted by a Muslim family of like character. Meanwhile, in Pakistan, acquaintances of the couple are reportedly either told by Pakistan's security services not to talk to the media or mysteriously disappear shortly after doing so - much like what happened with Kasab after 26/11.

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## VCheng

Solomon2 said:


> It's getting uglier...after the almost-ritual denunciations of terror, worshipers at the mosque the suspects frequented are rejecting the call for greater self-policing - that is, if the suspects chose to carry out terror, it's all the fault of non-Muslims, despite the fact that family and likely some members of the community were aware of the suspect's home arsenal of guns, bullets, and pipe bombs. The Muslim Brotherhood's CAIR's current priority is trying to ensure that the suspects' orphaned infant is adopted by a Muslim family of like character. Meanwhile, in Pakistan, acquaintances of the couple are reportedly either told by Pakistan's security services not to talk to the media or mysteriously disappear shortly after doing so - much like what happened with Kasab after 26/11.



Entirely predictable. 100%.


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## Solomon2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Entirely predictable. 100%.


Not good. During its struggle for independence, the young United States of America had to deal with the issue of traitors, terrorists, and saboteurs. Our military leader and later president, George Washington, had this to say about it:







The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily *the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens.*​Under Washington's leadership, for example, thousands of "Loyalists" were expelled, usually to Canada. You could be labelled a Loyalist for burning down the haystack or house of a Revolutionary - young Andrew Jackson was an eyewitness to just such an event. 

Thus citizenship wasn't always an absolute right of those born or even naturalized in the U.S.: demonstrable loyalty was important, too, and you could lose your citizenship otherwise. Laws to this effect were on the books until the 20th century. I suspect it won't be long before politicians, not just history buffs like myself, consider that they should follow the practices of George Washington and re-instate such laws.

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## VCheng

Solomon2 said:


> Thus citizenship wasn't always an absolute right of those born or even naturalized in the U.S.: demonstrable loyalty was important, too, and you could lose your citizenship otherwise.



Citizenship is a two way street. With its privileges come responsibilities too. That is only fair.


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## Solomon2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Citizenship is a two way street. With its privileges come responsibilities too. That is only fair.


Yeah, but when Andrew Jackson became president he also carried things too far, defying the Supreme Court and expelling the Cherokees who wanted to live in peace with the new Americans. If not for terror, extremists like him would never have reached the summit of political power.

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## VCheng

Solomon2 said:


> Yeah, but when Andrew Jackson became president he also carried things too far, defying the Supreme Court and expelling the Cherokees who wanted to live in peace with the new Americans. If not for terror, extremists like him would never have reached the summit of political power.



History shows us the ups and downs of the US political process, but it always reverts to equilibrium given the nature of its system of checks and balances.

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## Cherokee

A member tried to put the attacks on 3 white men and rabbled shy over it and when she realized it's not gonna work she slinked away faster than a weasel . This is what is wrong with Islam . Since it's a perfect religion it can do no wrong . Must be three white men .

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## VCheng

Cherokee said:


> A member tried to put the attacks on 3 white men and rabbled shy over it and when she realized it's not gonna work she slinked away faster than a weasel . This is what is wrong with Islam . Since it's a perfect religion it can do no wrong . Must be three white men .



In addition, must be uncircumcised and with skull and Satan tattoos. Damn those mythical creatures!

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## VCheng

Many things need to change, pronto:

Secret U.S. policy prevented immigration officials from reviewing visa applicants' social media | Daily Mail Online

*Fury at secret US policy that BANNED visa officials from looking at terrorist wife's social media - where she openly boasted about jihad - because the Obama administration feared 'bad public relations' *

*John Cohen, former acting-under secretary for intelligence and analysis, said policy blocked investigators from reviewing social media*
*Last year, Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson refused to end secret policy in fear of civil liberties backlash*
*Cohen said primary concern 'it would be viewed negatively if it was disclosed publicly'*
*Policy's revelation comes after U.S. officials learned San Bernardino shooter Tashfeen Malik's made social media posts*
*FBI said those posts included talk of Jihad and martyrdom *


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## Solomon2

*Evidence Contradicts Cleric's Claim of 'Casual' Relationship with San Bernardino Terrorist*
*by Michelle Moons and Raheem Kassam • Dec 28, 2015
Cross-posted from Breitbart*
_Originally published under the title "San Bernardino Terrorist's Mosque Cleric Exchanged 38 Texts With Terrorist, Claimed 'Casual' Relationship."_
*



*
*Roshan Abbassi (left), the cleric serving as spokesman for the San Bernardino mosque where Syed Rizwan Farook (right, with wife Tashfeen Malik) worshiped, claims he barely knew Farook. But phone records indicate otherwise.*

The mosque at the centre of the San Bernardino terrorist attack is back in the spotlight after one of the organisation's clerics, Roshan Abbassi, was found to have had repeated contact with terrorist Syed Farook in the months before the deadly attack which left 14 people dead and 24 people injured.

Mr. Abbassi and his fellow teachers at the mosque had previously claimed that they barely knew Mr. Farook, despite his repeat attendance at the Dar al Uloom al Islamiyyah mosque in San Bernardino. The mosque is now believed to be a haven for *Tablighi Jamaat* activists – a fundamentalist, proselytising Islamic sect known in some circles as the "Army of Darkness."

The _New York Post_ reports that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has found repeated phone contact between Mr. Abbassi and Mr. Farook, dating back to a two-week period in June – coinciding with the terrorist attack on two military sites in Chattanooga.

Mr. Abbassi – when not dodging difficult questions from Breitbart News journalists – emphasised to reporters during a press conference held just two days after attacks that he only knew Mr. Farook very casually. He said at the time that he only exchanged pleasantries with Mr. Farook when they both attended the mosque. "Hello, goodbye, how are you... just casual conversation... nothing more than that," insisted Mr. Abbassi.

But FBI agents are now investigating at least 38 messages that were allegedly exchanged between the pair during a two week span in June 2015.
*





*
*Dar al Uloom Islamiyah mosque in San Bernardino*

Mr. Abbassi was unusually hostile with reporters of all stripes when he was quizzed on radical Islam, FBI investigations, and his relationship with Mr. Farook on December 4th. When Breitbart News asked Mr. Abbassi whether he believed in an Islamic Caliphate, he refused to answer on multiple occasions.

When asked at the time if the FBI was investigating anyone else at the mosque, he replied, "No comment," before giving reporters a wry smile. He was then asked to clarify, to which he replied, "No comment." After being pushed a third time, he responded brusquely: "You guys are our guests. If we have no comment, you cannot force us to have a comment thank you very much."

And the stories between Mr. Abbassi and his fellow mosque leaders didn't stack up either. One claimed that Syed Farook hadn't attended the Dar al Uloom Islamiyah in a year, whereas Mr. Abbassi later revised this figure down to "a month."

Mr. Abbassi also tried to blame the terrorist attack on "workplace anger," stating:

Radicalisation? Never. In Islam there is no such thing as a radical Islam. There's proof it was workplace anger. Proof. And everyone knows the argument that he got in with one of his people and why don't they ever tell us what the argument was about.​
It was later reported that the argument between a coworker and Mr. Farook may indeed have been about the State of Israel, and Islam.

Speaking to other local imams, Breitbart News found a real fear of the Tablighi Jamaat sect, with one leader at the Corona-Norco mosque just a few miles away telling Breitbart reporters that the group was "dangerous" – especially for those who don't know what they are getting involved in when attending such mosques. "The Tablighi thing could get out of hand," he said. "[They] sleep in the mosque... they have... the beards," he dragged his hand further down his chin, widening his eyes.

Now, U.S. government officials think there could be up to 50,000 Tablighi Jamaat members across the United States.

Evidence from the United Kingdom, where the group practices aggressive tactics in their quest to build mega mosques across Britain suggests that security services and journalists may have ignored this ultra-orthodox sect – linked in numerous cases to terrorism – for too long.

Assistant FBI Director Michael Heimbach has said: "We have significant presence of Tablighi Jamaat in the United States," adding that Al Qaeda has "used them for recruiting."

Mr. Abbassi, who is of *Pakistani* origin, denies involvement in the San Bernardino terrorist attack, and has claimed that he was only discussing food donations for the mosque in his text exchanges with Mr. Farook.
*





*
*DHS whistleblower Philip Haney*

Tablighi Jamaat members across the world are encouraged to lead extremely austere lifestyles, with members often sleeping in their mosques, and only eating food that has been donated by other followers.

A U.S. Department of Homeland Security whistleblower – Philip Haney – told _Breitbart News Daily_ that he was involved in an investigation that might have stopped the San Bernardino attack, but was stopped by the Obama administration in the name of political correctness. Haney said:

Civil Rights and Civil Liberties shut the case down because we were focusing on individuals who belong to Tablighi Jamaat... This case actually took six years to develop... It started in 2006, and it gradually gained momentum over time. By 2008, I was interviewing twenty, thirty people a month sometimes.​
"It was exactly what DHS was created to do... We were doing what we took our oath of office to do. We were well-trained, capable subject matter experts, focused like a laser beam on a trend that was putting our country at threat."

Earlier this month Breitbart London revealed that a family in Britain who claimed "Islamophobia" after being banned from the United States were too linked to the Tablighi Jamaat mosque in San Bernardino. Britain's security services have yet to comment on the suspicions surrounding the family.

_Michelle Moons is a journalist at Breitbart. Raheem Kassam is a Shillman-Ginsburg fellow at the Middle East Forum and editor-in-chief of Breitbart London.

*Solomon2 note: At least one Pakistani general and head of the ISI has served as Tablighi Jamaat's Director-General:* link_

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