# Iranian Missiles | News and Discussions



## The SiLent crY

Iran's efforts to build long-range ballistic missiles and artillery with a high range can be divided into three periods .

First period : ( 1977 - 1979 )

Second period : During the years of war with Iraq ( 1980 - 1988 )

Third period : since end of war ( since 1988 )

Since the second period , manufacture of rockets and missiles entered a new phase and designing and producing them in a huge number was performed . ( The experience of 8 year war helped Iran to understand the influence of ballistic missiles and missile technology in War , defense strategy which led Iran to unlimited missile defense strategy ).

After the war , Iran tried to develop it's missile technology with the help of foreign experts who were driven from their country or were unemployed . 

*Solid Fuel :*

The main foundation of using this fuel were Oghab and Shahin 2 missiles .

Iran used this technology systematically for it's field artillery which caused producing Fajr , Naze'at and Zelzal artillery groups . Initial efforts were supported by China's technical assistance and technology .
Many Assembly and manufacturing plant were built during the years from 1991 to 1992 . Iran with an incredible speed overtook china and was needless of china in producing .






Fajr 2





Fajr 3

Weight : 45 kg (HE Content) _ 90 kg (Warhead) _ 407 kg (Rocket)

Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 5,200 mm (Rocket)

Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)

Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)

Caliber : 240 mm

Maximum range :43 km









Fajr 5

Weight : 90 kg (HE Content) _ 175 kg (Warhead) _ 915 kg (Rocket)

Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 6.485 m (Rocket) 

Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)

Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)

Caliber : 333 mm

Effective range : 68&#8211;75 km





Naze'at 6

Weight : 130 kg (Warhead) _ 960 kg (Rocket)

Length : 6.29 m

Width : 356 mm

maximum range : 100 km





Naze'at 10

Weight : 230 kg (Warhead) _ 1830 kg (Rocket)

Length : 8.02 m

Width : 455 mm

maximum range : 130 km

*To be continued*

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## The SiLent crY

Zelzal 1
The rockets were first exhibited in 1997 . ( produced in 1994 - 1995 ) . 
Iran designed zelzal 1 by using the technology of Chinese missiles B-611 

Weight : 600 kg (Warhead) _ 2950 ( Total )

Length : 8.32 m

Width : 0.61 m

Range : 150 km





Zelzal 2

Weight : 3400 kg ( Total )

Range : 210 km









Zelzal 3

















Zelzal-3B

Weight : 3.6 - 3.87 tonnes depending on model

Length : 9 - 9.6 m depending on model

Diameter : 610 mm

Range : 200-250 km depending on model

Launch platform : Transporter erector launcher

In September 1999 Iran showed a new generation of it's Rockets called ( Zelzal 3 ) which had the range of 150 - 200 km .
In 2001 , some unverified reports claimed that the rockets had been equipped with a simple inertial guidance system which increased the range to 400 km .

According to some reports , Iran has armed Hezbollah with theses Rockets also a huge number of them have been delivered to Syria .

*To be continued*

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## The SiLent crY

*Liquid Fuel :*

After the war , Iran began testing missiles with liquid fuel including Scud - B missile that had been produced by reverse engineering . The local model of Scud-B was called Shahab 1 that was designed and manufactured again . After shahab 1 , it was shahab 2's turn to be designed and manufactured by using Scud - C . 
The last missile of this group is Shahab 3 .
Iran has plans to produce Shahab 4,5,6 however there isn't enough information about them and all is conjecture and speculation, which is expressed by Western intelligence services .









Shahab 1









Shahab 2

















Shahab 3

The information of Iranian known missiles will be posted soon ( including Shahab 1,2,3 )

*To be Continued*

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## The SiLent crY

Iranian missiles division :


*1.Katyusha :*





Comparison of Iranian artillery rockets






Arash

Caliber: 122 mm _ Range: 20.75 km _ Weight : 66.4 kg ( rocket ) _ Warhead : 19.18kg






Falaq

The Falaq-1 rocket : 240 mm _ weight : 111 kg ( rocket ) _ warhead : 50 kg

The Falaq-2 rocket : 333 mm _ weight : 255 kg ( rocket ) _ warhead : 120 kg



Oghab 

Weight : 360 kg _ Length : 4.82 m _ Diameter :23 cm _ Range : 34-45 km 






Fajr 2






Fajr 3

Weight : 45 kg (HE Content) _ 90 kg (Warhead) _ 407 kg (Rocket)

Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 5,200 mm (Rocket)

Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)

Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)

Caliber : 240 mm

Maximum range :43 km










Fajr 5


Weight : 90 kg (HE Content) _ 175 kg (Warhead) _ 915 kg (Rocket)

Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 6.485 m (Rocket) 

Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)

Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)

Caliber : 333 mm

Effective range : 68&#8211;75 km

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## The SiLent crY

*2.Artillery rockets :*

Tondar 69

Zelzal 1

Zelzal 2

Zelzal 3

































Tondar-69/CSS-8

Configuration : 2-stage , solid / Liquid fuel

Weight : 2650 kg

Length : 10.8 m

Diameter : 0.65 m

Max Range : 150 km

Warhead: 190 or 250 kg

In Service :1992

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## The SiLent crY

Zelzal 1


Weight : 600 kg (Warhead) _ 2950 ( Total )

Length : 8.32 m

Width : 0.61 m

Range : 150 km

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## The SiLent crY

Zelzal 2

Range : 300 km

Diameter : 0.61 m

Height : 8.3 - 8.46 m

Stages : 1

Launch Mass : 3,450 - 3,545 kg

Warhead Mass : 210-600 kg

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## The SiLent crY

Zelzal 3

Configuration : Single stage, solid fuel

Weight : 3600 kg

Length : 9 m

Diameter : 616 mm

Max Range : 260 km

Min Range : 235 km

Warhead : 600 kg

CEP : <1300 m

Guidance : none 


*To be continued *

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## The SiLent crY

*3.Short-range ballistic missiles :*

Shahab 1 

Shahab 2

Fateh-110





















Shahab 1  





Shahab-1 engine


Class : SRBM

Basing : Road-mobile

Length : 10.94 m

Diameter : 0.88 m

Launch Weight :5860 kg

Payload : Single warhead , 985 kg

Warhead : HE , chemical

Propulsion : Liquid propellant

Range : 300 km

In Service :1987

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## The SiLent crY

Class : SRBM

Basing : Road-mobile

Length : 10.94 or 11.5

Diameter : 0.88 m

Launch Weight : 6095 kg

Payload : 770 kg

Warhead : HE or submunitions

Propulsion : Liquid propellant

Range : 500 kg

In Service : 1997

The Shahab 2 is the Iranian variant of the Russian SS-1D &#8216;Scud C&#8217;. It is a single stage, liquid propelled, short-range ballistic missile. Its maximum range is 500 km and it carries a single warhead with the maximum payload of 770 kg.

The length of the Shahab 2 is disputed. Most believe it is 10.94 m, although one report states a length of 11.25 m. The diameter is 0.88 m and the launch weight is 6,095 kg. The range is 500 km. This missile presumably carries HE, chemical and nuclear warheads, though only HE warheads are known to exist. Reports show that 170 missiles were assembled following the initial test launch trials in 1991.

Preliminary reports from Iran in 1997 discuss the possibility of coastal batteries for the Shahab 2. The Shahab 2 was again tested in July 1998 following its introduction into service in 1997. In 2004, the Shahab 2 became an active participant in all military drills and exercises, being consistently tested with successful results. An additional public test in April 2006 signaled the beginning of a regional war game. The last noted successful test was in November of 2006, indicating the Shahab 2 employed a submunitions warhead. There is a great deal of public relations information from Iran stating that the purpose of these ballistic weapons is for defense only.

Reports indicate that Iran assisted in the construction of several countries weapons programs including Congo and Sudan. Syria, in turn, may have been aided by Iran in building the Syrian &#8216;Scud C&#8217;. A 2006 report suggested that Iran was negotiating to export Shahab 2 missiles to Venezuela. Another 2006 report suggested the presence of 300 to 400 operational Shahab 1 and 2 missiles in Iran.

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## The SiLent crY

Fateh 110

Class : SRBM

Basing : Road-mobile

Length : 8.86 m

Diameter : 0.61 m

Launch Weight : 3450 kg

Payload : 500 kg

Warhead : HE, chemical , submunitions

Propulsion : Single-stage solid propellant

Range : 200-210 km

The Fateh A-110 is a short-range, road-mobile, solid-propellant ballistic missile. It is most likely a modified version of the unguided Zelzal-2, with the addition of control and guidance systems . The Fateh A-110 is designed to replace many of the aging Scud systems currently used in the Middle East. While the program is based in Iran, the missile is believed to incorporate components from Chinese contractors. In 2006 the US Department of the Treasury accused Great Wall Industry, a Chinese Corporation and its partners for playing a lead role in the development of the Fateh missile system. 

Iran began developing the Fateh A-110 in 1995. Sources indicate that the missile is 8.86 m long, 0.61 m in diameter, and weighs 3,450 kg. It uses a single-stage solid propellant engine and has a range of 210 km (130 miles), although it is possible that Iran will add extra boosters in order to increase its range to 400 km (249 miles). The missile might be as accurate as 100 m CEP using a combination of inertial guidance and a Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) system, though some sources suggest that the accuracy is much lower, as they do not think that the missile is capable of much inflight maneuvering or correction. Iranian sources claim that the weapon has a high degree of accuracy, a claim that would suggest inflight control systems that are not apparent from photos of the missile. It can carry a payload of some 500 kg and is most likely intended to deliver only high explosive, chemical, or submunitions warheads. The possibility remains, however, that Iran could deploy the Fateh A-110 with biological or nuclear warheads. 

The first test flight of the Fateh A-110 took place in May 2001, with a second in September of 2002 . A third test was recorded in February 2003. A fourth test was successfully completed during the second Holy Prophet military exercise in November 2006. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard successfully tested the Fateh in January of 2007 during an annual war game. A fifth successful test was completed in September 2007 alongside the Qadr-1 and the Shahab-3. Additionally, unconfirmed reports suggest that at least five more tests have occurred since 2008. During its tests, the Fateh A-110 was fired from a fixed launcher similar to the one used by the Russian S-75 Guideline surface-to-air missile. However, it is more likely that Iran has designed a launch vehicle to make Fateh A-110 road mobile. The launch vehicles are probably converted Scud launchers, trucks, or Zelzal-2 launch vehicles . Reports indicate that the Fateh A-110&#8242;s tactical use is similar to that of a Scud system. Although Iran has improved the missile&#8217;s overall ability, its accuracy makes the Fateh A-110 ineffective against moving military targets. However, the missile is capable of hitting most large military targets such as bases and airfields.

The missile entered low-rate production in October 2002 and initial operational achievement is believed to have occurred in 2004. Syria is known to be developing a similar short-range solid-propellant missile and to have exported a similar design to North Korea. Given their history of technological exchanges and the decreased cost of working together, it is likely that Syria and North Korea are involved with the Fateh A-110 . Unconfirmed reports from 2008 suggest Hezbollah was supplied with Fateh A-110 rockets by Imad Mughniyeh, a recently deceased officer in the organization who reportedly received these weapons from Iran. It is possible that these were some of the Zelzal weapons destroyed in Lebanon by Israeli forces in 2007. Numbers and production information relating to the Fateh A-110 are currently uncertain, yet Iranian media sources claim that facilities have been created to mass produce the weapon. 10

Two improved versions of the Fateh A-110 are believed to be in development. These would probably be designated the A-110A (or Fateh 2) and the A-110B (or Fateh 3). A 2008 report suggested that Syria was building a surface-to-surface missile with Iranian assistance. This cooperative project is believed to be based upon the A-110B and have an operational range of at least 300 km. It is expected that the A-110B will have a slightly reduced payload of 480kg and an accuracy of 250 m CEP.

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## The SiLent crY

Fateh 110 , 3rd generation delivery

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## The SiLent crY

Fateh-110





Syrian Fateh-110 (Tashreen)

*To be continued *

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## The SiLent crY

*4.Medium-range ballistic missiles :*

Shahab 3

Fajr 3 ( missile )

Ashura

Ghadr 110 _ Ghadr 1 _ Ghadr F

Sejjil 1

Sejjil 2


































Shahab 3

Class : IRBM

Basing : Road-mobile

Length : 16.58 m

Diameter :1.25 or 1.38 m

Launch Weight : 17410 kg

Payload : Single warhead , 1,200 kg

Warhead : Nuclear , HE , chemica l, or submunitions

Propulsion : Single-stage liquid propellant

Range : 1300 kg

In Service : 2003


The Shahab 3 is a medium range, liquid-propellant, road-mobile ballistic missile. The Shahab 3 represents Iran&#8217;s first successful attempt to acquire medium range ballistic missiles that give Iran the capability to threaten targets (like Israel) which lie beyond Iran&#8217;s immediate borders. The original Shahab 3 missile is nearly identical to the North Korean No Dong 1 missile, and almost certainly is based on technology and parts from North Korea. Pakistan has also shared in this technology to build the Hatf 5 missile.North Korea, a country that has long supplied Iran with missiles and missile technology, began development of the No Dong 1 in the mid-1980s. Neither North Korea, nor Iran, nor Pakistan had well-developed missile programs at the time, so it is believed that the original technology came from either Russia or China. It seems likely that the North Koreans borrowed engine designs from the Russian SS-3 (R-5) missile, though the No Dong missile is significantly smaller. The connection to the Russian missile seems likely for two reasons: First, Russia has been known to declassify obsolete missile designs, thus allowing them to fall into other hands. Second, the No Dong missile is believed to use the same fuel and oxidizer as many Russian missiles. Regardless of where the technology came from, the North Koreans almost certainly did not build the missile without some outside guidance, as their limited experience would have required far more initial testing than is believed to have been conducted. Moreover, both Iran and Pakistan invested in the North Korean technology prior to much testing &#8211; a move that they probably would not have made if the success of the technology was uncertain. 

Both the No Dong missile and the Shahab 3 missile look much like an over-sized &#8216;Scud&#8217; missile; however, the later missiles represent some major departures that are important from technology and performance perspectives. On the technology side, the missiles use an engine that is similar, but larger than that used on the &#8216;Scud&#8217; missiles. This fact is important because North Korea&#8217;s prior experience was almost entirely gained by modifying &#8211; not redesigning &#8211; &#8216;Scud&#8217; engines. From a performance perspective, the increased size allows for a significantly increased range without making a missile that is too large for TEL-basing. While using a single-stage liquid propellant engine (like a &#8216;Scud&#8217, the No Dong and the Shahab 3 employ a separating RV unit. The ability to build a two-stage missile (engine + re-entry vehicle) is potentially a significant intermediate step between short-range, low payload missiles (like &#8216;Scuds&#8217 and much longer-range, heavier payload missiles.

Testing began on the No Dong missiles in 1990. In 1993, it is believed that Iran and Pakistan entered into an agreement with North Korea to buy missiles and/or share the technology. At least one No Dong missile was tested in 1993, and Iran and Pakistan likely sent representatives to witness the test. While Iran initially purchased a great number of the No Dong missiles, international pressure seems to have led to the transfer of only a few missiles. In 1997, engine testing on the Shahab 3 began in Iran, presumably with a small number of No Dong missiles or missile components from North Korea. 

The abilities and specifications of the Shahab 3 are largely based upon foreign speculation and aggressive Iranian diplomacy. Iran is known to rename missile programs, exaggerate about missile performance abilities, and declare that untested technologies are operational. To further complicate the problem, it is frequently unclear which versions of the Shahab 3 are referred to by Iranian officials and western intelligence reports. Contrasting reports suggest that the missile is between 15.6 and 16.58 m in length and 1.25 and 1.38 m in diameter. These same reports place the range between 800 and 1300 km with payloads varying between 760 and 1200 kg. The range is likely about 1000 km, but varies widely depending upon the weight of the payload. Heavier and more effective payloads, like those employing first-generation nuclear warheads, would likely have a much shorter range than a smaller unitary HE warhead. The total launch weight is about 17,410 kg.

Most sources suggest that the guidance system of the Shahab 3 is based upon the inertial system used in the &#8216;Scud&#8217; missiles, giving the missile an accuracy of about 2500 m CEP. The Pakistani version, the Hatf 5, is believed to employ Chinese guidance technology that significantly improves accuracy. The Shahab 3 may use similar technology, especially in its later variants, but early versions of the missile likely had very poor accuracy. With an accuracy of 2500 m CEP, the Shahab 3 missile is primarily effective against large, soft targets (like cities).

Warhead options may include biological and chemical weapons, but as ballistic missiles are an expensive and not highly effective method of deploying chemical and biological agents, Iran would presumably favor nuclear or HE warheads for the Shahab 3. Iran&#8217;s nuclear ambitions are no secret, though it is not yet known whether Iran has successfully acquired or built nuclear warheads. The Shahab 3 could use a nuclear warhead similar to the warhead design sold by A.Q. Khan to Libya. 

Following initial testing in 1997, the Shahab 3 was first flight tested in 1998. The test appears to have been largely unsuccessful as the missile exploded prior to reaching any target (though it may have flown over 1000 km first). A second test in July 2000 successfully flew 850 km. A third test, supposedly of a satellite-launch variant, was unsuccessfully held in September 2000. A fourth test in January 2002 failed after the missile caught fire during the pre-launch fueling sequence, though a May 2002 test was successful. Tests in July and August of 2002 appear to have been unsuccessful. An eighth test in July 2003 appears to have been successful and reportedly flew over 1300 km. Since July 2003, the missile is believed to have been in operational use. Subsequent tests have primarily been held for Shahab 3 variants, which are covered in another entry.

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## The SiLent crY

Range of Shahab 3





















Shahab 3





I have no idea what they are doing there !!!

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## The SiLent crY

Fajr-3 (missile)

Type : Strategic MRBM

In service :	2006&#8211;present

Warhead : Three

Engine : Liquid

Operational range : Unknown (estimated 2500 km)

Guidance system : inertial

The Iranian-made Fajr-3 (meaning "dawn" in Persian and Arabic) is believed to be a medium-range ballistic missile with an unknown range (estimated 2,000 km, 1,250 miles). Iranian officials have said that the missile can avoid radar detection and has multiple independently targeted reentry vehicles (MIRV).

The Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps unveiled the missile during the Holy Prophet wargames on March 31, 2006. Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force commander Gen. Hossein Salami announced on television "the successful test-firing of a new missile with greater technical and tactical capabilities than those previously produced". He also said that the missile would carry three warheads, and that each warhead would be capable of hitting its target precisely. He did not specify the missile's range, which can vary with the payload.

*Will be continued later*

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## The SiLent crY

Ashoura (missile) :

November 2007, Iranian Defence Minister Mostafa Mohammad-Najjar announced Iran had built a new missile with a range of 2000 km, the Ashoura missile. Najar said: "The Islamic Republic of Iran has never aimed to launch an attack on any country. It will never do so. But if someone wants to invade Iran, they will face a crushing response by the armed forces." He did not say how the missile differed from the Shahab-3, which has a range of 2100 km.

He told the gathering Basij militia during the manoeuvres they were holding that same week that: "The construction of the Ashoura missile, with the range of 2,000 km, is among the accomplishments of the Defence Ministry."

According to Jane's Defence Weekly, the Ashoura represents a major breakthrough in Iranian missile technology. It is the first two stage MRBM using solid fueled rocket motors instead of the existing liquid fueled technology used on the Shahab. This would dramatically reduce the setup and deployment time for the missile and hence, shorten the amount of warning time for the enemy and increase accuracy. Jane's noted that while the development parallels Pakistan's Shaheen MRBM there is no evidence to suggest there had been any prior technology exchange or with its other known technology partners such as North Korea, India or China The Ashoura was developed by the Shahid Bagheri Industrial Group (SBIG) under the Sanam Industrial Group (Department 140) which is part of the Defense Industries Organization (DIO) of Iran.

This missile is similar to Shahab 3 and I couldn't find any verified picture


Type : Strategic MRBM

In service : 28 November 2007&#8211;present

Diameter : 1.2 m

Warhead : One

Engine : solid

Operational range : 2000 ~ 2500 km

Guidance system : inertial

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## The SiLent crY

Ghadr-1

The Ghadr-1 is a medium-range ballistic missile currently being designed and developed by Iran. Sources indicate that the missile will have a range of approximately 1800 km, which would allow it to attack targets in Israel and across the Middle East. Given recent reports from 2008, it is possible that this missile system is operational, yet there have been no conclusive or publicly visible tests of the weapon. The only acknowledgement of the Ghadr-1 is its public display on parade and unconfirmed reports of ground testing of its propulsion system.

The Ghadr-1 appears to be an improved variant of the Shahab-3A, also referred to as the Ghadr-101 and the Ghadr-110. There are mixed reports regarding the new missile. In 2004, it was believed to have a liquid-fuel first stage and a solid-fuel second stage. According to Jane&#8217;s Strategic Weapon Systems, this would allow it to have a range of 1950 km. The length is thought to be 15.86 m, with a launch weight of about 19,000 kg. If reports regarding the Ghadr-1 accuracy are correct, then it would be a significant improvement of the Shahab 3 (2,500 CEP). A December 2008 report noted an CEP of 300 for the Ghadr-1. Reports also indicate the possibility that Ghadr could be designed to carry a nuclear payload. This possibility is raised with uncertainty as the Ghadr appears to be comparable to the Shahab system, whose apparent goal is to obtain such a payload. 

The Ghadr-1 is also believed to have a higher maneuverability than the Shahab-3. While some sources believe that it is the same missile as the Shahab 4, the higher maneuverability as well as the 30 minute set-up time provide sufficient evidence to consider this a separate missile. Additionally, sources from 2007 report that the Ghadr 1 may have a significantly shorter stated range than originally projected in 2004. It remains classified as an MRBM and is now considered distinct from its shorter range, Shahab-3, and longer range, Shahab-4, counterparts. Sources also indicate that the Ghadr-1 is being manufactured entirely in Iran at the top-secret Hemmat Missile Industries Complex. An article from December 2007, though, cites interaction between the German Intelligence agencies and Iranian nationals within German borders. The report states that on more than one occasion Iranian nationals have been held in conjunction with the smuggling of &#8220;dual use goods.&#8221; These items are usually converted for their secondary use, military needs, in Iran after their transit from Germany. Reports indicate that these dual use goods were used in the development of the Ghadr-1 missile system. 

In December of 2004 the National Council of Resistance of Iran claimed ongoing research and ground testing of the Ghadr-1. In March 2006, the Paris-based Iranian opposition group, the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), claimed that Iran had ramped up its development of the Ghadr-1, allegedly 70 percent complete at the time. The NCRI added that the new missile was expected to be entirely complete in one year&#8217;s time. Reports from October 2007 indicate that Teheran unveiled the Ghadr whose shape was very similar to that of the Shahab-3 MRBM. 

Class : MRBM

Length : 15.86 m

Launch Weight : 19000 kg

Warhead : Nuclear , chemical , HE , submunitions

Propulsion : Liquid first-stage , solid second-stage propellant

Range : 1950 km

In Service : 2007

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## The SiLent crY

Sejil missiles

Class : IRBM

Basing : Road-mobile

Length : 17.6 m

Diameter : 1.25 m

Launch Weight : 23600 kg

Payload : Single warhead , 500-1500 kg

Warhead : HE or nuclear

Propulsion : Two-stage solid propellant

Range : 2000 km

Status : Presumed Operational

In Service : 2012

The Sejil missile is a two stage, solid-propellant, intermediate-range ballistic missile domestically designed and built by Iran. It represents the culmination of Iranian weapons technology as it borrows heavily from the design and technology of the liquid-propelled Shahab missiles while integrating the solid-propellant technology of the Zelzal missiles.

Development of the Sejil missile likely began in the late 1990s, but the program can hardly be understood apart from other Iranian missile programs whose development began much earlier. Most importantly, Iran began development on the Zelzal missiles in 1994 or 1995. The production of the Zelzal missiles required Iran to develop the domestic ability to produce composite solid-propellant in fairly large quantities. The technology and equipment used in Zelzal fuel production has almost definitely been used for the Sejil missile project. It is believed that China aided Iran in the improvement of their solid-propellant production ability for the Zelzal missiles; it seems likely that China has also aided Iran in the production of fuel for the Sejil missile.

At the same time that Iran was developing composite solid-propellant fuel, they were working with the North Korean No Dong 1 missile design to produce the Shahab 3. The Shahab 3 design was used by Iranian engineers to produce a number of domestic missile technologies &#8211; a major advance from earlier Shahab designs, which relied almost entirely on Russian and North Korean technology. The Shahab 3 variants have provided a number of advantages over the original North Korean design and proved that Iranian engineers can domestically design and produce improved warheads and SLVs. The Sejil missile, internally quite different from the Shahab 3 missile (solid propellants require very different motors and internal design), probably borrows from a number of Shahab 3 technologies. At the very least, it is believed that the RV/nose cone design that first appeared in Shahab 3 variants has been used on the Sejil missile.

Though the missile has a similar size, weight, payload, and range to the Shahab 3 variants, the fact that it is fuelled by solid-propellants is a huge improvement over the Shahab design. Solid propellants allow for a near-immediate launch time, leaving the missile much less vulnerable during launch. Because solid-propellant missiles do not have to be fuelled immediately prior to launch, they are also much more easily transported. On the other hand, solid propellant missiles have particular performance characteristics that make them more difficult to guide and control. How Iranian engineers have overcome these hurdles is unknown, but it seems likely that they have modified Shahab guidance systems and/or received considerable foreign assistance.

The Sejil missile has a length of 17.6 m, a diameter of 1.25 m, and an overall launch weight of 23,600 kg. It carries a payload of 500 to 1,000 kg. Presumably the missile will carry HE warheads until Iran gains nuclear warheads. The missile&#8217;s maximum range is about 2,000 km, though these figures are based upon a missile fuselage with the weight and performance characteristics of aeronautical-grade steel. Supposing that Iran had the technology to produce missiles built of maraging steel, titanium, or composite material, the missile would potentially be lighter and have an extended range upwards of 2,400 km.

The first test launch occurred in 2008 and the missile reportedly flew 800km. A second launch was conducted in May 2009 to test improved guidance and navigation systems. Four other flight tests have occurred since 2009, with the sixth test flying approximately 1,900 km into the Indian ocean. 

The Sejil missile appears to be a unique Iranian design. Though some speculation has tied the missile to the Chinese DF-11 and DF-15, the size and specifications of the missile suggest that the Iranian missile is unique. Unlike earlier Iranian systems, the missile also does not appear to be a copy of a previously-released North Korean missile. Of course, it is highly likely that the missile project has made significant gains through foreign assistance. Because the design is new, Iran will probably have to subject it to a great deal of testing before putting the missile into regular operation. Assuming that the Sejil project moves at about the same speed as foreign missile development projects, Iran will probably not declare the missile operational until at least 2012. 

The Sejil missile system may be operational, but regardless, Iran continues to make improvements. There may be multiple versions of the Sejil system. In 2009, Iran referred to the test launch as the Sejil 2. An unconfirmed report stated the a Sejil 3 may be in development. The Sejil 3 would reportedly have three stages, a maximum range of 4,000 km, and a launch weight of 38000 kg .


























Sejil

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## The SiLent crY

Sejil

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## The SiLent crY

5.Long-range ballistic missiles :

Shahab-4

Safir

Kosar




Shahab 4


Class : MRBM

Warhead : HE , chemica l, nuclear

Range : 2000 to <4000 km

Status : Unknown

The Shahab 4 has been mentioned in many media and intelligence reports over the last ten years. Unfortunately, those reports have frequently been contradictory and their sum does not provide a clear picture of the Shahab 4 missile project. The program, in fact, may not actually exist. Assuming that the missile is in development, it would probably borrow from the technologies of the Shahab 3 while improving performance characteristics to allow for greater range, a heavier payload, and increased accuracy.

Though Iranian missile development has progressed dramatically in the last 15 years, many experts believe that the Shahab 4 borrows from foreign missile design. In keeping with the North Korea-Pakistan-Iran missile relationship, some speculate that the Shahab 4 is based off of the North Korean No Dong 2 or Taepo Dong 1 missiles or the Pakistani Hatf 5A. Other sources suggest that the Shahab 4 is based on defunct Russian technology from the SS-4 or SS-N-6. 

The No Dong 2 and the Hatf 5A are obvious comparisons with the Shahab 4. The Shahab 3 was based upon the same technology as the No Dong 1 and the Hatf 5, so it makes some sense that the improved versions of those missiles would form the basis of the newer Shahab missile. Of course, Iran has already greatly improved upon the Shahab 3, as discussed in the Shahab 3 variants entry. If the Shahab 4 is based upon the No Dong 2 and Hatf 5A, then it is probably one of the many Shahab 3 variants and not a separate project. Given the tendency of Iranian officials to name and rename projects, this conclusion is likely accurate.

The SS-4 was 22.8 m long with a diameter of 1.65 m and a launch weight of 42,000 kg. Its 1,600 kg payload contained a single separating warhead. It used a single-stage liquid propellant engine and an inertial guidance system. The SS-4 had a range of 2,000 km (1,243 miles) and an abysmal accuracy of 2,400 m CEP. Depending on the similarity between the Shahab 4 and the SS-4, these figures may not be relevant. It is believed that the Shahab 4 will have an accuracy of between 2,500 and 3,500 m CEP and a range of between 2,000 and 3,000 km (1,243 to 1,864 miles). 

The Soviet SS-N-6 bears similar specifications to the SS-4 and the projected specifications for Shahab 4, but with increased accuracy (1,000m CEP), greater range (2,500-4,000 km), and a lighter payload (1,200kg). Originally submarine launched, the SS-N-6 is believed to have been modified by North Korean, and finally adjusted and assembled by Iran for use as a land-based missile. At the fall of the Soviet Union, many of these SLBMs remained in operational condition. Reports indicate that one or more of these weapons made their way to North Korea before North Korea delivered some of these missiles to Iran. 

In 2003 Iran announced that it would close the Shahab 4 program in favor of an SLV program (Satellite Launch Vehicle). Since that time, Iran has had some success with a domestic space program that has successfully put a small satellite into orbit. Regardless of the space program, however, talk of a Shahab 4 has not completely quieted and many believe that a missile with this designator is still in development. The Shahab 3 and its variants can hardly meet many conceivable range and payload objectives, so it seems reasonable to expect that a new missile is in development.

If the Shahab 4&#8242;s reported range of 2,000 km range is correct, the missile will have the capability to target all of Israel, as well as Turkey, much of India, and US forces stationed in Iraq, Afghanistan, or the Persian Gulf. The missile could substantially increase the political and military leverage held by the Iranian government, especially if Iran develops a nuclear warhead.

An additional threat is the possibility that Iran will give or sell its missile technology to rogue nations or terrorist organizations antagonistic toward the U.S. At present, Iran&#8217;s missiles are stored and operated in underground sites under the complete control of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, which enjoys little outside supervision within Iran. General Mahmud Chahar Baghi of the IRGC stated in 2008 that any act of Israeli aggression would be retorted by the launching of 11,000 missiles within the first minute. 

The Iranian missile program has been shrouded in secrecy, deception, and the unknown. Iran obtains weapons of various design and origin, and frequently retains a single name and reclassifies its physical missile assets, which adds to the confusion. According to Defense Minister Najjar, when asked about the testing of the Shahab 4, &#8220;Names and titles are not important in this regard. The important point, though, is that we are proceeding according to our defense doctrine&#8230;&#8221; At present the future of the Iranian missile program is uncertain, but the existence of these missiles proves that ballistic missiles are no longer the purview of first world nations. If the US and its allies are to remain safe, they must deploy missile defense systems capable of undermining the effectiveness of these now ubiquitous offensive systems.


Safir

The Safir (Persian: &#1587;&#1601;&#1740;&#1585;&#8206;, meaning "ambassador") is the name of the first Iranian expendable launch vehicle that is able to place a satellite in orbit. The first successful orbital launch using the Safir launch system took place on 2 February 2009 when a Safir-2 carrier rocket placed the Omid satellite into an orbit with a 245.2 km (152.4 mi) apogee.

A sub-orbital test flight, named Kavoshgar-1 (Persian: &#1705;&#1575;&#1608;&#1588;&#1711;&#1585; &#1777;&#8206;, "Explorer-1"), was conducted on 4 February 2008, as announced by state-run television. A launch on 25 February 2007, may also have been of the same type. The first flights carried instruments to measure the higher atmosphere. The rocket launched on 4 February 2008 was a liquid-propellant-driven rocket, probably a derivative of the Shahab-3, that reached an altitude of 200&#8211;250 km in space, and successfully returned science data according to the Iranian News Agency.

On 19 February 2008, Iran offered new information about the rocket and announced that Kavoshgar-1 used a two staged rocket. The first stage separated after 100 seconds and returned to earth with the help of a parachute. The second stage continued its ascent to the altitude of 200 kilometres. However it was not intended to reach orbital velocity.

Earlier reports by the Iranian News Agency suggested that Kavoshgar-1 used a three staged rocket with the first stage separating after 90 seconds and the rocket reaching an orbit between 200 and 250 kilometres.

The successful development and launch of a sounding-space-rocket was already announced a year earlier, on 25 February 2007. It is unknown if the sounding rocket launched on 25 February 2007, and the rocket launched on 4 February 2008, are of the same type.

Safir-1

On 17 August 2008, Iranian officials reported that a Safir was launched successfully without a payload, in preparation for the launch of Iran's first indigenously launched satellite, Omid . Reza Taghizadeh, head of the Iranian Aerospace Organization, told state television "The Safir (Ambassador) satellite carrier was launched today and for the first time we successfully launched a dummy satellite into orbit". As it was announced by Iran, a dummy satellite was put into a 650 km LEO passing over Iran six times every 24 hours.

Alleged failure

According to an American official, "The vehicle failed shortly after liftoff and in no way reached its intended position." However, the video of the liftoff of the rocket was shown on the Iranian state television for several minutes.[13] Iranian officials released a statement denouncing the allegations as propaganda and stated that Iran would soon launch the Omid satellite. Iran indeed launched the satellite on 2 February 2009, less than six months later.


Safir-2

On 2 February 2009, a Safir rocket conducted Iran's first orbital launch, with the Omid satellite. The two-staged launch vehicle named SAFIR-2 was 22 m long with a diameter of 1.25 m, weighing about 26 tonnes. The 27 kg Omid satellite was launched into an orbit with a 245.5 km perigee and 381.2 km apogee. The evidence is mounting that Safir-2 was more powerful and advanced than initially thought.

Safir-2 Block-II

Iran has begun the development of the planned Block-II Safir booster intended to double its payload capacity with the intent to make it operational by some time in 2010. The launch vehicle is to acquire its increased payload capacity into low earth orbit through the addition of two Samen, solid motor strap-on boosters added to the Shahab-3C derived first stage and possible a new solid motor third stage added to the existing two stage Safir space booster. The announcement of the development start on this booster was made on 14 April 2009 by the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. This booster is capable of placing satellite in 700-kilometre (430-mile) orbits or doubling its payload capacity. Iran is known to be combining these liquid propellant and solid motor technologies to the development of a more capable Safir block-II class space booster expected in 2010 with over twice the capability of the present Safir space booster. Iran is known to be working on a new, nearly all solid propellant boosters with a payload capacity of 330 kilograms to low earth orbit. On the maiden flight of the Safir-B rocket, designated Safir-B1, from a launch site in Semnan Province, Iran's third indigenous satellite, the 15.3 kg Rasad 1 was launched. The launch occurred at approximately 09:14 UTC on 15 June 2011 with the spacecraft reaching orbit several minutes later.

In February 3, 2012, the 50 kg Navid satellite was launched by an upgraded Safir-2 rocket with 20% more thrust. The second stage of the new rocket was wider.


Alleged failures

As were alleged, non-announced by Iran two failed launches of Fajr Earth imaging satellites occurred from Semnan spaceport on May, 23 and October in 2012 .

































Safir

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## The SiLent crY

Safir 

For more information about Iranian space program , Visit this thread : http://www.defence.pk/forums/iranian-defence/164510-iranian-space-program.html

*To be continued*

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## The SiLent crY

6.Surface to air missiles :


Mehrab

Mersad

Sayyad 1 _ Sayyad 2

Shahab Saqeb

Raad



Mentioned systems are the ones that have been locally manufactured or improved by Iran . ( Not Foreign systems like Hwak , Tor M1 and ... )

























Mehrab

This missile has been manufactured by using the SM 1 missile technology . apart from improving the radar and electronic systems , mehrab has been resistant against electronic warfare and can change it's trajectory to source of electronic abnormalities .

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## The SiLent crY

Mersad radar


Type : Air defense system

In service : Since 2010

Variants : Mersad, Mersad Phase I , Mersad Phase II (Under Development)

Main armament : 3x Shahin or Shlamche Missiles

Engine : Solid propellant rocket engine

Operational range : Shahin:45 km(30 miles)

Speed : More than Mach 2.4, Shalamche: Mach 3

Guidance system : Semi-active radar homing



Mersad (Persian: Ambush) is an Iranian advanced low to mid range Air defense system developed in 2010 . It fires Shahin (Falcon) missiles which are reverse engineered, domestically upgraded versions of the American MIM-23 Hawk Surface-to-air missiles. It uses a series of domestically produced Radars and Electronic Devices , and is capable of intercepting ballistic missiles .

Development :

In 2010, Iran announced that it had launched the production line of a new air defense system named, Mersad, which incorporates Shahin missiles . It was said that the system consists of different target tracing and tracking radars, soft and hardware networks, launch pads for Shahin missiles and a command and control center. Iranian defense minister Ahmad Vahidi said that the Mersad air defense system has superior capabilities and includes more capabilities than its western rivals like the Hawk mid-range defense system. Vahidi reiterated that Mersad is resistant to electronic warfare and can be used as part of a network of radar and air defense systems and is fully digital . The Shahin missile is an improved reverse engineered version of US made MIM-23 Hawk Surface to air missile sold to Iran before the 1979 revolution.

Some months later, Iran announced that it has increased the range and altitude of the missile defense system. Vahidi also noted that the new system can also engage more targets at the same time.

In November 2010, Iranian air force colonel Faramarz Ruh Afza said that Mersad has a limited ability to intercept ballistic missiles . That same day, the commander of Khatam al anbia base, Ahmad Miqani, said that Iran is working on the improving the Mersad with the second phase including double range and altitude .

Iran tested the Mersad two days after Miqani's speech in an Air Defense Wargame called Defenders of the Skies of Velayat III. In this test, Iran shot down a UAV using its Mersad Air Defense System.

Also in April 18, 2011, Iran tested two other missiles of Mersad from a site in Semnan. Later it was announced that the missiles were not Shahin. But a further upgraded one called Shalamche. Iranian Defense minister Ahmad Vahidi stated that the speed is now about mach 3 with an increase of about mach 0.6 . He called the missile state of art because of its new electronics which made it highly resistance to Electronic warfare. He said that the range of this missile is about 40 km and it is going to be increased.

Later in May 16, Iran tested the new missile again in an air defense war game in eastern Iran.

According to Iranian officials, the most important factors of new Mersad Phase I system are increase in range and a new advanced algorithm for guiding the missile into its target.

In September 4, Iran announced that Shalamche missile is now being delivered to Iranian Air Defense Force.

On November 14, 2012 ,The Shalamcheh missile was fired from the Mersad air defense system at a Karrar (UCAV), which was destroyed, during the Defenders of the Skies of Velayat 4 drill .

Radars :

Mersad uses three radars. The PAR radar, called Kavosh, is an upgraded copy of the original AN/MPQ-50. The maximum range is increased to 150 km and an IFF system is added to the radar. A new CWAR called Jouiya is used to detect low altitude targets. The HPIR radar is an upgraded version of AN/MPQ-46 with an additional EO system attached to it. All of the radars use solid state electronics to have more resistance to electronic warfare and can be linked to the other Mersad systems .

Variants :


Mersad : Basic variant. Uses the first generation of Shahin missiles.

Mersad Phase I : Second variant. Tested on October 2010, this variant has a higher range and altitude. It is also capable of engaging more targets simultaneously.

Mersad Phase II : Third variant. This variant is currently under development. It will have double the range and altitude as compared to the basic Mersad.

Unknown Designation : Uses Shalamche missiles instead of Shahin.

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## The SiLent crY

Shahin missiles

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## The SiLent crY

Shahin missiles

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## The SiLent crY

Testing Mersad system

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## The SiLent crY

Mersad radars

*To be continued*

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## The SiLent crY

Sayyad 1

Type : Low-to-High air defense missile system

Guidance system : Guidance command to line of sight

Propulsion : Two-stage solid 

Length : 10.84 m

Launch Weight : 2320 kg

Warhead missile : 195 kg 

Range : 20 km 


The Sayyad-1 (Hunter I) is a static surface-to-air missile system which is a development of the Russian S-75 (NATO SA-2 Guideline) system. The Sayad is also heavily influenced by the Chinese HQ-2 and may benefit from North Korean technology input. Iran has acquired surface-to-air missiles modified with chemical weapons. Western intelligence sources said Iran has acquired modified SA-2 air defense systems from North Korea. They said Pyongyang has converted the SA-2 from a surface-to-air to a surface-to-surface missile. On 14 April 1999 the Iranian armed forces carried out a successful test of a surface-to-air missile. A spokesman of the Iranian Ministry of Defense reported "the missile was able to hit its target at an appropriate altitude." This missile was designated Sayyad-1, named for assassinated commander Lt-Gen. Ali Sayyad-Shirazi. Ministry of Defense and Armed Forces Logistics spokesman Keyvan Khosrawi said that the missile was produced completely by the Airspace Industries Organization, affiliated to the Ministry of Defense and Armed Forces Logistics. Iranian defense ministry officials acknowledged that the Sayyad-1 missile was an SA-2 of Chinese design, but was at least partially manufactured in Iran .

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## The SiLent crY

Sayyad 2

Type : Low to High air defense missile system

Guidance system : Guidance command to line of sight

Propulsion : Two-stage solid propellant booster

Length : 10.84 m

Launch Weight : ? kg

Warhead missile : 200 kg

Speed : 3600 km/h

Range : 80 -100 km

The Sayad-2 static surface-to-air missile system is a further development of the Sayad-1 series, which in itself is a development of the Russian S-75 (NATO SA-2 Guideline) system. The Sayyad 2 is better in precision, range and destruction power. The Sayyad series is also heavily influenced by the Chinese HQ-2 and may benefit from North Korean technology input. Other reports not yet confirmed suggest the updated Sayyad series to be strongly influenced by HAWK and Standard missiles in current Iranian armed forces inventory. The Sayyad-2 was unveiled in April 2011. In May 2011, Commander of Khatam ol-Anbia Air Defense Base Brigadier General Farzad Esmayeeli told FNA (Iranian press agency that the new air-defense system Sayyad-2 has been deployed in all air-defense units across Iran.

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## The SiLent crY

Shahab Saqeb / (FM-90)






Shahab Saqeb truck and power unit
Length : 3 m

Width : 0.156 m

Launch weight : 84.5 kg

Max operating range : 15 km

Speed : 750 m/s

Guidance : Command + electro optical tracking


copy of the Chinese HQ-7 (FM-90) system. This Project was First Joint Winner-Applied Research in 14th Khwarizmi International Award ( 2001 ;Tehran-Iran )

The Project Title was Production of Low Range Ground to Air Missile ( Shahab Saqeb ) .

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## The SiLent crY

Raad air defense system + Taer 2 missiles





Testing Raad system

Type : mid range air defense system

Designed : 2012 

Main armament : 3x Taer-2 surface to air missiles

Operational range : 50 km

operational altitude : 25 _ 27 km



Raad is an Iranian aerial Defense system based on Russian Buk . It was deployed by Iranian weapon experts in September 2012 . The system is designed to enhance Iran's capabilities in terms of defense, and as a partner to Bavar 373 air defense system . According to Fars news agency the Raad, is more advanced than its Russian predecessor and is designed to confront fighter jets, cruise missiles, smart bombs, helicopters and drones. the system is also designed specially for US fighters . The system is equipped with 'Taer' (Bird) missiles, which can trace and hit targets in ranges up to 50 km and in altitudes from 25 to 27 km (75,000 feet), Ra'd is ranked as a mid-range radar system and air defense system .

Apart from speculation by the Western media , The Reserve engineering of Russian and American air defense systems such as Buk , SA.2 and Hawk has been a good experience to help Iran in designing local air defense systems like Bavar 373 .

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## The SiLent crY

Bavar 373 :

Bavar-373 ( Persian: &#1576;&#1575;&#1608;&#1585;-&#1779;&#1783;&#1779;&#8206; , meaning 'Belief' ) is an Iranian long-range Air defense system currently under development.
Development of the system began as a response to the Russian ban on the exportation of its advanced S-300 surface-to-air missile systems to Iran .

*History :*

After the Russian ban on exporting *S-300* to Iran, Defense minister Ahmad Vahidi told Iranian media at Sept. 22. 2010 that they will develop a similar domestic system by themselves: &#8220;We have planned to build a long-range air defense missile system similar to S-300. By God&#8217;s grace and by the Iranian engineers&#8217; efforts, we will reach self-sufficiency in this regard.&#8221;

It was later revealed that the name of the system will be *Bavar 373*. Bavar meaning "belief" and 373 which is the Abjad number of prophet Muhammad's name .

Farzad Esmaieli, commander of Khatam-ol-Anbia Base told Iranian media that the development of this system started by the direct order of supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei when the first information about cancellation of S-300 contract was revealed and Iranian personnel were still being trained in Russia on it . He said the project was in the stage of prototype designing and that it was not going to suffer from the weak points of the S-300. He continued that in the area of detection and radars, a very good point was reached and defense ministry was working on two or three missiles each for a different range and altitude.

Later he said the system is much more capable than S-300, without mentioning the S-300 version he meant. He said that the design was complete, all the parts were going to be manufactured inside the country and it had a good ability to detect and intercept enemy aircraft .

In November 22, 2011, the first prototype was built . Iran announced that the system was designed and built by defense ministry, domestic industries and some Iranian universities. Esmaieli said that Iran doesn't even think about S-300 anymore as Bavar-373 was much more capable. Iranian sources suggest that the Bavar 373 will be mobile, with four loaded on each mobile truck launcher. It also will be able to undertake a cold launch from systems similar to existing missiles, such as the Tor-M1 .

The Iranian defense ministry is due to equip the country's Armed Forces with a new long-range air-defense system by March 21, 2013, a senior Iranian military official announced on Saturday August 25, 2012 . On 3 September 2012, Farzad Esmaili said that the development of the system was now *30 percent* complete . On 1 January 2013, the same commander announced that the sub-systems of the home made air-defense system are being tested in laboratory .



*Here are some pictures of Bavar 373 truck ( Zoljanah ) :*














Iranian 10x10 heavy duty truck for Bavar 373






The engine of Zoljanah


*To be continued*

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## The SiLent crY

*7.Man portable air defense systems :*

Misagh 1

Misagh 2

Qaem



























Misagh 1 Man portable air defense missile system


Type : MANPADS ( Man portable air defense missile system )

Missile : 1

Country users : Islamic Republic oF Iran

Combat weight : 16.9 kg ready to fire

Target engagement ( Altitude ) : 30 - 4000 m

Target engagement ( Range ) : 500 - 5000 m

Crew : 1 soldier

Type of engaged targets : tactical aircraft , helicopter , UAV and cruise missile

Missile :

Weight : 10.86 kg _ Weight Warhead : 1.17 kg

Length : 1.477 m

Warhead type : HE Fragmentation

Flight speed : 570 m/s

Reaction time : 5 to 10 sec

Guidance system : Passive IR homing device and night vision ( operating in the medium IR range )



The Misagh 1 is an Iranian man-portable infrared guided surface to air missile. It was developed by the Shahid Kazemi Industrial Complex in Tehran and is an all-aspect passive infrared homing system. It is a variant of the Chinese QW-1 Vanguard missile system, which is based on the Russian SA-16 Gimlet 9K310.
The Misagh-1 missile weapon system has been improved remarkably in fast reaction, attacking mode, guidance system, propulsion system, etc., while still retaining the main characteristics of previous portable anti-aircraft missiles, such as flexibility, maneuverability, easy operation and fire-and-forget homing. This missile weapon system, with excellent technical efficiency and combat performance, meets the needs of modern war. 

Design :

This system is comprised of; the missile in its disposable launch tube, a grip-stock firing unit and a replaceable battery/coolant unit which is mounted towards the front of the launcher all of which is contained in its transportable packing case.

Missile :

The missile is guided by proportional navigation to the impact point with the target, whereupon a target adaptive homing circuit cuts in just before impact to ensure maximum damage is caused. Once the missile is launched, the gunner is free to seek protective shelter or make ready for the next engagement. 

Operations :

Normally operated as part of a two-man team the gunners can, on the march, carry the system on their backs by means of a harness. The operating sequence is as follows. The gunner is alerted by visual detection of a target. The assistant then selects a firing site and removes the front and rear covers of the launcher tube and raises it to the shoulder firing position. If identified as hostile, the firing trigger is depressed part way to activate the electric battery and coolant bottle to provide power and gas to the missile's systems. The gunner then aims at and tracks the target until continuous audio and visual signals are received. These indicate seeker lock on. The gunner then sets the lead angle and depresses the firing trigger all the way. Between 0.3 and 0.8 seconds later, the booster motor sends the missile out of the firing tube to a safe point where it is jettisoned and the dual-thrust sustainer motor kicks in to power the missile in flight.

Combat use :

The Misagh-1 missile weapon system is a portable shoulder-fired, anti-aircraft weapon system against low and very low altitude targets by sudden attack in all directions. The target could be a high speed jet plane, a propeller-driven aircraft or an armed helicopter. It is a powerful weapon for air defense of pivotal points and covering field troops operation.

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## The SiLent crY

Misagh 2 Man portable air defense missile system

Type : MANPADS ( Man portable air defense missile system )

Missile : 1

Country users : Islamic Republic oF Iran

Combat weight : 18 kg ready to fire

Target engagement ( Altitude ) : 10 to 3500 m

Target engagement ( Range ) : 500 to 6000 m

Crew : 1 soldier

Type of engaged targets : tactical aircraft , helicopter , UAV and cruise missile

Missile :

Weight : 11.32 kg _ Weight Warhead : 1.42 kg

Length : 1.590 m

Warhead type : HE Fragmentation

Flight speed : 600 m/s

Reaction time : 5 to 10 sec

Guidance system : Passive IR homing device and night vision ( operating in the medium IR range )


The Misagh 2 is an Iranian man-portable infrared guided surface to air missile. It was developed by the Shahid Kazemi Industrial Complex in Tehran and is an all-aspect passive infrared homing system. It is a variant of the Chinese QW-2 Vanguard missile system. The Misagh-2 is an advanced version of the indigenously developed Misagh-1 air-defence system.
Iran's defense minister launched the domestic mass production of the Misagh 2, on February 2, 2006.

Design :

The Misagh-2 features a newly developed dual-band passive IR seeker with strong resistance to heat flares dispensed by the target and solar/ground heat, thus improving the missile&#8217;s performance in day/night, all-weather conditions.

Missile :

The missile itself weighs 11.32 kg at launch, the warhead 1.42 kg and the complete system 18 kg in the firing position.

Operations :

The Misagh-2 can engage approaching targets out to 6 km and receding targets out to 5.2 km. The maximum effective altitude against jet fighters is about 2.5 km and helicopters and subsonic aircraft about 3.5 km. Misagh-2 features a newly developed dual-band passive IR seeker with strong resistance to heat flares dispensed by the target and solar/ground heat, thus improving the missile&#8217;s performance in day/night, all-weather conditions in electronic warfare conditions.

Combat use :

The Misagh-2 is a new generation of portable anti-aircraft missile weapon system. Its main mission is to strike tactical targets such as fighters, attackers and armed helicopters at low and very low altitude . It can also supply effective air defense for military bases, political and industrial centers, and other important facilities. This weapon system is characterized not only by portability, high maneuverability, easy operation and fire-and-forget homing of the traditional portable anti-aircraft missile system, but also by advanced detective technology, guidance control technology and new power system. Because of this, further detective distance and larger attacking area are achieved. The most important is that the latest anti-infrared interference technology is adopted so that the missile can effectively identify the target signals from strong man-made and complicated environmental interference signals and get rid of the interference signals effectively.

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## The SiLent crY

Qaem missiles

















Qaem missiles launchers





Firing Qaem missile

Type : MANPADS _ Anti tank and helicopter laser guided missile

Length : 1.20 m

Weight : 18 to 20 kg

Width : 150 mm

Speed > 310 ms 


The Qaem, 'Rising' in English, is a laser-guided surface-to-air missile (SAM) system developed by Iran under its weapons program started in 1992 as a response to the United States arms embargo. The Qaem missile is intended against low altitude, low-speed armored aircraft such as attack and transport helicopters. The Iranian press has reported that the Qaem could be used against the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter .

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## The SiLent crY

*8. Anti tank missiles :*

Saeqeh _ Saeqeh 2

Raad ...

Toophan _ Toophan 2 _Toophan 5

Toosan

Dehlavieh





Saeqeh 2 Anti tank missile





Saeqeh 1 and Saeqeh 2

Saeqeh is the optimized version of the American missile ( Dragon ) which has been reverse engineered by Iranian experts . This missile is used by Iran army ground forces . 

The American Dragon's range is 500 m but Saeqeh 2's ultimate range is 1000 - 1090 m .also the warhead of Saeqeh 2 is heavier than Dragon . According to the capabilities of Saeqeh 2 it seems the missile is the reverse engineering of Super Dragon that was optimized in early 90's .





I Raad missile





I Raad T missile

Weight : 11.88 kg

Length : 832 mm

Main weapon caliber :120 mm

Firing range : 3000 m


For some years the Parchin Missile Industries Division of the Iranian Defence Industries Organization (DIO) has been manufacturing a copy of an improved version of the Russian Kolomna KBP AT-3b 'Sagger' 9M14M Malyutka-M wire-guided Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) under the local name of Raad.

More recently another Raad version has entered production called the Improved Raad, or l-Raad, which is fitted with a tandem High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) warhead which will defeat MBTs fitted with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA).

The first small precursor HEAT charge in the nose activates the ERA so clearing a path for the main HEAT charge to pass through and penetrate the main armor of the vehicle. The precursor charge has four fixed fins which are claimed to improve the maneuverability of the missile.

The design of the new front end of the Improved Raad is such that it can be quickly fitted to existing in-service Raad ATGM (as well as Russian and other copies). It uses the same launcher and test procedures.





Different Toophan versions









Toophan 1 and Toophan 2 missiles

Toophan (Persian: &#1605;&#1608;&#1588;&#1705; &#1591;&#1608;&#1601;&#1575;&#1606;&#8206;, means "Typhoon" in Persian) is a series of Iranian anti-tank missiles. Toophan 1 is a reverse-engineered copy of the US military TOW missile. The Toophan-1's payload is a 3.6 kg high-explosive anti-tank warhead that can penetrate up to 550mm of steel armor. The range is 3,850m, the top speed 310 m/s. The manufacturer is the Aerospace Industries Organization of Iran, which has produced the missile since 2000. Several other variants are also built with more penetration power.

Operational history :

Iran was among the earliest country to import the TOW missile as far back as 1971. Extensive repair and assembly facilities were set up at the Iran Electronics Industries (IEI) by the Texas-based Emerson Energy Systems as well as Hughes Missile Systems to repair TOW and FGM-77A Dragon missile.

In May 1975 negotiations between Iran and Hughes Missile Systems on co-production of the TOW and Maverick missiles stalled over disagreements in the pricing structure. Hughes set the royalty and initial investment costs for Iran at $20 million for the TOW and $25 million for the Maverick. The subsequent 1979 revolution ended all plans for such co-production.

Hezbollah reportedly used Toophan missiles against Israeli Merkava tanks during the 2006 Lebanon War.

Toophan 1 :

Basic version. Has a penetration of 550 mm RHA, a length of 116 cm and a weight of 18.5 kg. It's range is described being 3.5 km .

Toophan 2 :

An upgraded variant using a much more powerful tandem warhead that can penetrate 760 mm of armor after disabling ERA by its small 40 mm frontal warhead. Missile weight has been increased to 19.1 kg and length to 145 cm. As with Toophan 1 it has a range of 3.5 km .

Toophan 2-B : 

A further upgrade with a heavier warhead and reported penetration of 900 mm RHA .

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## The SiLent crY

Toophan 5 ATGM ( Anti Tank Guided Missiles ) and Launchers

Type : Anti Tank Guided Missile

Used by : Islamic Republic oF Iran _ Syria _ Hezbollah

Wars : 2006 Lebanon War

Length ( probe folded ) : 1.16 m 

Length ( probe extended ) : 1.45 m 

Diameter : 0.152 m

Warhead weight : 3.6 kg

Wingspan : 0.46 m

Operational range : 3850 m

Speed : 310 m/s

Guidance system : Wire guided , laser guidance for later versions



Toophan 5 :

Another variant with laser guidance and additional four small fins in front of the missile. The missile is described having two warheads. Possibly still with a penetration of 900 mm.

According to the reports , Hezbollah could destroy 2 Merkava 4 tanks by using Toophan 5 during war in 2006 .










 Toosan missile and It's launcher

Weight : 26.5 kg

Warhead : 3.2 kg

Range : 70 to 4000 m

Speed : 200 m/s

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## The SiLent crY

Dehlavieh missile

"Dehlavieh" is a man portable, laser anti armor system. It is one of the most advanced anti armor missiles that has been designed for destroying types of advanced MBT's equipped with reactive armor.
It uses a special guidance system that is resistant against electronic warfare.
It can be used against naval and aerial targets at low altitudes like helicopters . 

*To be continued*

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## The SiLent crY

*9. Anti ship missiles :*

Noor

Qader

Kowsar

Zafar

Nasr 1

Hoot








Noor and Qader missiles
















Qader missile ( left ) _ Noor missile ( right )









Noor Anti Ship cruise Missile / C-802


Iran was the first export customer of Chinese C-802 missile. The contract was signed in 1995 but was canceled when 60 missiles were delivered due to US pressure. After that Iran started a program to reverse engineer C-802.

It is unknown when the program was finished, but in 2000, Iran tested an upgraded C-802 missile during Unity-79 wargames.Officials said that the range of the missile is increased from 30 km to 130 km.

The missile is powered by Toloue-4, an Iranian version of the French Microturbo TRI 60 engine .

In January 2004, Iran announced that it has started manufacturing the DM-3B mono pulse radar for Noor missile . According to Iranian officials, DM-3B is a millimeter-wave active radar used in the last stage of missile flight to find the target and home in the missile on it. Because of its frequency, it is very hard to jam the radar which is located inside the nosecone.

In 2006, it was announced that the missile's range has been increased further to 170 km.

In 2011, another variant called Qader was unveiled by Iran with a range of 200 km and the ability to attack coastal targets. A video of the missile hitting its coastal target was published by the Iranian media.

In early 2012, during Velayete-90 wargames, a Noor missile was tested with improvements in electronic systems, a more jam-resistant radar and better target acquisition algorithms. A Qader missile was also tested in the wargame.

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## The SiLent crY

Qader Anti Ship cruise Missile 






























Qader Anti Ship cruise Missile 


Type : Anti ship cruise missile

Engine : Turbojet engine

Range : 200 km

Flight altitude : Sea-skimming



The Qader is a short-range anti-ship cruise missile developed by Iran. The missile called "Qader" (Able) is built indigenously by Iranian scientists and has a high destructive ability against coastal targets and warships. The missile, which has been unveiled in 2011-08-23, has a range of 200 km and is described by Iranian officials as "the most powerful and precise missile of the Islamic Republic of Iran&#8217;s Navy" .

Qader and Noor have same color and shape but Qader is newer , has longer length , heavier warhead and longer range

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## Serpentine

Tnx S00R3NA, you did a great job in this thread. We appreciate it.

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## The SiLent crY

The commander of the Iranian Navy





























Qader Anti Ship cruise Missile testing in Strait of Hormuz

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## The SiLent crY

kowsar anti ship cruise missile / C-701


Type : Anti-ship missile

In service : 2006

Weight : 100 kg

Length : 2.507 m

Diameter : 0.18 m

Warhead : 29 kg time-delayed semi armour piercing high explosive

Engine : Solid rocket engine

Operational range : 15-20 km

Flight altitude : 15-20 m 

Speed : 0.8 Mach

Guidance system : TV homing , Infrared , millimetre radar

Launch platform : Ground based vehicles and Zolfaghar class fast attack craft




Kowsar is a medium-range, land-based anti-ship missile made by Iran. It can defeat electronic jamming systems and "cannot be thrown off course", according to Iranian officials.

The Kowsar designation apparently (Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance 2006) is used to refer to two different missiles: Iranian-produced versions of the PRC C-701 and the TL-10A.

Combat history :

Some news reports indicate that this was the missile used on July 14, 2006 in the 2006 Lebanon War when Hezbollah fired two at Israeli warships. One of the missiles hit the corvette INS Hanit, causing heavy damage and the deaths of four Israeli servicemen.

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## Jasongt

good one


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## The SiLent crY

Zafar anti ship cruise missile

The Zafar missile is a short-range anti-vessel radar-guided cruise missile, which can target small and medium-sized targets with high precision .

The missile system can be installed on various types of vessels, he said, adding that the Zafar missile enjoys remarkable features like light weight, capability to repel electronic attacks, and high destructive power.

The Zafar missile loses altitude after being launched, and then cruises at low altitude in order to be hidden from sight of the enemy, and in the final stage identifies the target at a low altitude and destroys the target .

The Zafar missile system is a completely indigenized system, which was designed and manufactured by competent and skilled Iranian experts and engineers.

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## The SiLent crY

Nasr 1 anti ship cruise missile 


Type : Anti ship missile

Weight :350 kg

Length : 3.5 m

Diameter : 0.28 m

Warhead : 150 kg time-delayed semi armour piercing high explosive

Engine : Solid rocket engine

Operational range : 35 km

Speed : 0.8 to 0.9 Mach 

Guidance system : TV-homing , millimetre radar




Nasr-1 Is a domestically-manufactured Iranian short range anti ship missile capable of evading radar. It has the capability of destroying 1,500-tonne targets such as small warships like frigates. Nasr-1 missile can be launched from both inland bases and offshore military vessels, and is being modified to be fired from helicopters and submarines.

The missile has a cigarette shaped body with four large foldable fins attached to the middle part and four smaller ones attached to the end of the missile near the exhaust.

In December 2008, an Iranian naval forces successfully test-fired the surface-to-surface Nasr-1 during the final stage of "Unity 87" wargames in the Persian Gulf waters. Following the successful test firing, on 7 March 2010, Iran's defence minister announced a mass-production line of Nasr-1 missiles.

In early 2012, during Velayet-e 90 wargames, it was tested from land-based TELs.

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## Arabian Legend

Copy....Paste Nothing surprising here. with the defense systems GCC operate can detect and hunt down all Iranian junks at the first phase. Manipulation of fuel tanks for different range but same Korean technology.


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## The SiLent crY

The Legend said:


> Copy....Paste Nothing surprising here. with the defense systems GCC operate can detect and hunt down all Iranian junks at the first phase. Manipulation of fuel tanks for different range but same Korean technology.



Many people like you think Reverse engineering is copy and pasting , But its absolutely false because If you want to reverse engineer anything you'll have to have the prior knowledge and technology of that product . If it was copy pasting , nowadays every single country would have F-22 or the latest missiles , but you see , no one has .

Just have a look on Turkey . They've been producing F-16 in their soil for years but haven't been able to produce 1 independently without the main manufacturer's ( US ) support or Iran that has had F-16 , F-14 , F-5 - F-4 for nearly 4 decades but still cant produce the engine for them .

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## The SiLent crY

Nasir 1 anti ship cruise missile

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## The SiLent crY

Iranian Hoot Torpedo









Russian VA-111 Shkval


Type : Super cavitation Torpedo

In service : 2006&#8211;present

Warhead : One

Speed : 100 m/s




Hoot (Persian: &#1581;&#1608;&#1578;&#8206;; Whale) is an Iranian super cavitation torpedo that travels at approximately 360 km/h (220 mph), several times faster than a conventional torpedo . It was test-fired successfully from a surface ship against a dummy submarine during the Iranian military exercise "Great Prophet" on 2 April 2006 and 3 April 2006.

The official Iranian news agency IRNA claims the torpedo was produced and developed by the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps .

Most military and industry analysts have concluded that the Hoot is reverse engineered from the Russian VA-111 Shkval super cavitation torpedo which travels at the same speed but Iran hasn't verified that .

According to Reports , Hoot and VA-111 Shkval are the fastest torpedoes in the world .

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## Arabian Legend

S00R3NA said:


> Many people like you think Reverse engineering is copy and pasting , But its absolutely false because If you want to reverse engineer anything you'll have to have the prior knowledge and technology of that product . If it was copy pasting , nowadays every single country would have F-22 or the latest missiles , but you see , no one has .
> 
> Just have a look on Turkey . They've been producing F-16 in their soil for years but haven't been able to produce 1 independently without the main manufacturer's ( US ) support or Iran that has had F-16 , F-14 , F-5 - F-4 for nearly 4 decades but still cant produce the engine for them .




Without Korean technology and help, Iran would not have the capabilities to produce anything. There is one superpower country still heavily depends on Russian technologies. Reveres engineering can be done through reassembly but it is not easy to be done for highly sophisticated tech such as engines, otherwise Iran would have already produce spare parts to it's jets.

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## The SiLent crY

The Legend said:


> Without Korean technology and help, Iran would not have the capabilities to produce anything. There is one superpower country still heavily depends on Russian technologies. Reveres engineer can be done through reassembly but it is not easy to be done for highly sophisticated tech such as engines, otherwise Iran would have already produce spare parts to jets.



Iran had cooperation with china several years ago but it ended cos of the US pressure , North Korea was a partner not technology supplier and there is no sign of cooperation in latest achievements . Its all on our own these days .
You're underestimating Iran , Iran is 1st in science production in ME and Iranians are the talented ones in the world . What you see today is not even half of Iran's potential cos Iran's got the most brain drains and the worst possible educational system . That's why we've got behind however our experts have reached great achievements .

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## The SiLent crY

*10. Antiship ballistic missile :*

Khalij e Fars ( *PERSIAN GULF* )


























Khalij e Fars ( PERSIAN GULF ) Anti ship ballistic missile





Khalij e Fars Firing in Persian Gulf

Type : Anti-ship ballistic missile

In service : 2011&#8211;present

Manufacturer : Iran

Length : 8.86 m

Diameter : 0.61 m

Warhead : One

Engine : Solid (single stage)

Operational range : 300 km

Speed : 3 Mach


Khalij e Fars ( Persian : &#1605;&#1608;&#1588;&#1705; &#1582;&#1604;&#1740;&#1580; &#1601;&#1575;&#1585;&#1587;&#8206;, "Persian Gulf" ) is a single-stage solid-propellant , supersonic Anti-ship quasi ballistic missile with a range of 300 km based on the Fateh-110 missile. It is equipped with a 650 kg explosive warhead which benefits from a combination of guidance systems to evade interception.

The missile was unveiled in Feb 2011 when the Commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari announced that it is being mass produced. Iranian Fars News agency released a footage of the missile hitting the target ship successfully . The missile was first tested during the Great Prophet 3 naval wargames in 2008. Israeli expert Uzi Rubin describes the missile a game changer if used against US carriers in straight of Hormouz .

There has been two other publicized tests of the missile. One occurred in July 2011 and the other in July 2012 . The later test also showed a footage taken by the missile's Electro-Optical seeker locked into the target.

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## The SiLent crY

Khalij e Fars ( Persian Gulf ) Anti ship ballistic missile

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## The SiLent crY

*This thread was created to show Iran's achievements in missile industry .

I tried to post information about all the known missiles and rockets that have been reserve engineered , designed or manufactured by Iranian experts . 

First accept my apologies if I've forgotten anything and second please help this thread if you have any useful information , pictures or videos related to the topic . *



*** In loving memory of Iranian self-sufficiency missile industry's martyrs ***

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## Serpentine

The Legend said:


> Copy....Paste Nothing surprising here. with the defense systems GCC operate can detect and hunt down all Iranian junks at the first phase. Manipulation of fuel tanks for different range but same Korean technology.


Ok, we are just copying.What **** have Arabs done?Selling oil and buying defense systems and jet fighters is supposed to be achievements?Why are some people so stupid?

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## PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER

S00R3NA said:


> Shahin missiles


very good to see Iran progressing in this way..by the way aren't these two missiles similar??? i guess they are based on the same old soviet platform of SA-6
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...koCgBQ&usg=AFQjCNFGqsWQ1HqDrJB-2E1Jo0umQwvh2g


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## The SiLent crY

PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER said:


> very good to see Iran progressing in this way..by the way aren't these two missiles similar??? i guess they are based on the same old soviet platform of SA-6
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...koCgBQ&usg=AFQjCNFGqsWQ1HqDrJB-2E1Jo0umQwvh2g



Its the reverse engineered version of the American *MIM-23 Hawk* .

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## Greenn

Thanks S00R3NA for this useful thread. about ballistic missiles, i have read an article about difference between shahab 3 A with shahab 3 B that you didn't mention it. 

you can read it here:
Shahab 3: an Advanced IRBM

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## Abii

guys stop answering the wahabi
he's just trying to saudi the thread with shotor droppings

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## The SiLent crY

Qiam 1 Ballistic Missile ( The first Iranian missile that doesn't have fins ) :



Type : Ballistic Missile

In service : 2011present

Manufacturer : Islamic Republic oF Iran

Weight : 6155 kg

Length : 10.6m

Diameter : 0.88m

Warhead : 700 kg

Engine : Liquid

Operational range : 750km

Speed : Unknown

Guidance system : Unknown




*Qiam 1* (Persian: &#1602;&#1740;&#1575;&#1605;-&#1633;, meaning "Uprising-1") is an Iranian missile resembling Shahab-3 variations while according to photos , it is smaller than Shahab-3 . It has been tested on 20 Aug 2010 and is claimed to have more chance to evade interception because unlike other Shahab variants , it does not have fins .

In 20 Aug 2010, Iran announced that it has successfully test fired a new missile called Qiam-1. Iranian Defense Minister Ahmad Vahidi on state TV said that "the missile has new technical aspects and has a unique tactical capacity". He also stated that "Being a new class of Iranian missiles, Qiam 1 has been equipped with new technical specifications and exceptional tactical powers" and then noted "Qiam 1 is part of the new generation of the Islamic Republic's surface to surface missiles with liquid fuel and completely designed and built domestically" .But he didn't mention the range of the missile .

The next day in 21 Aug 2010, Head of the Defense Ministry's Aerospace Industries Organization General Seyed Mehdi Farahi told Fars News Agency that "it is possible for Qiam-1 to be launched from various types of launchers". Then he added "that the range of Qiam differs in accordance with its mission, meaning that the missile can hit targets in different distances according to its mission plan.". He also said "that Qiam-1 is a radar-evading missile and that the time for preparing and launching the missile has been minimized. 

In 2011, Iranian defense minister Ahmad Vahidi announced that the missile is now being delivered to IRGC Air Force.










Qiam 1 Ballistic Missile
___________________________________________________

























Qiam 1 Ballistic Missile delivery

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## Jasongt

The Legend said:


> Copy....Paste Nothing surprising here. with the defense systems GCC operate can detect and hunt down all Iranian junks at the first phase. Manipulation of fuel tanks for different range but same Korean technology.



producing junks is better than importing junks ..haha..



The Legend said:


> Without Korean technology and help, Iran would not have the capabilities to produce anything. There is one superpower country still heavily depends on Russian technologies. Reveres engineering can be done through reassembly but it is not easy to be done for highly sophisticated tech such as engines, otherwise Iran would have already produce spare parts to it's jets.



well Iran is producing spare parts...read sth man before giving professional opinions.

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## Jasongt

continue boys...

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## The SiLent crY

Qiam 1 missile test






Qiam 1 missile out of atmosphere



The advantages of Qiam 1 missile to Shahab 3 missile :

1.Longer range

2.Higher accuracy

3.More diverse firing platforms

The most important one is number 4 .

As mentioned before , Qiam 1 can be launched from fixed and land mobile platforms but the most important feature that can be considered is the capacity of firing this missile in the sea like the experiences of Russian R-27 and Indian Navy's dhanush missile .

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## Jasongt

S00R3NA said:


> Qiam 1 missile test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Qiam 1 missile out of atmosphere
> 
> 
> 
> The advantages of Qiam 1 missile to Shahab 3 missile :
> 
> 1.Longer range
> 
> 2.Higher accuracy
> 
> 3.More diverse firing platforms
> 
> The most important one is number 4 .
> 
> As mentioned before , Qiam 1 can be launched from fixed and land mobile platforms but the most important feature that can be considered is the capacity of firing this missile in the sea like the experiences of Russian R-27 and Indian Navy's dhanush missile .


WOW...KEEP it coming guys


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## The SiLent crY

S00R3NA said:


> Qiam 1 missile test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Qiam 1 missile out of atmosphere
> 
> 
> 
> The advantages of Qiam 1 missile to Shahab 3 missile :
> 
> 1.Longer range
> 
> 2.Higher accuracy
> 
> 3.More diverse firing platforms
> 
> The most important one is number 4 .
> 
> As mentioned before , Qiam 1 can be launched from fixed and land mobile platforms but the most important feature that can be considered is the capacity of firing this missile in the sea like the experiences of Russian R-27 and Indian Navy's dhanush missile .



Correcting the mistake : The advantages of Qiam 1 missile to Shahab 2 missile :

1.Longer range

2.Higher accuracy

3.More diverse firing platforms

The most important one is number 4 .

As mentioned before , Qiam 1 can be launched from fixed and land mobile platforms but the most important feature that can be considered is the capacity of firing this missile in the sea like the experiences of Russian R-27 and Indian Navy's dhanush missile .



Sorry , I couldn't edit previous post .


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## The SiLent crY

*Meshkat Cruise missile :*

The Meshkat (Persian: &#1605;&#1588;&#1705;&#1575;&#1578; , Lantern) is a medium range cruise missile built by Iran.

Iranian media quoted Iran's deputy defense minister on September 9, 2012, that a medium range cruise missile will be revealed soon. The missile can be fired from ground, air and sea and will have a range of 2000 km.

The missile is possibly a reverse engineered version of Kh-55 that Iran obtained from Ukraine in 2001 or an extension to a drone design called Karrar which was revealed in 2010 .

A report about Meshkat :

Iran's deputy defense minister has announced the country plans to unveil a homegrown medium-range cruise missile in the near future. 

&#8220;Meshkat cruise missile, which God willing will be unveiled soon, has a range of more than 2,000 kilometers. It will be the upper hand of the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran,&#8221; Brigadier General Mehdi Farahi, who is also the director of Defense Ministry&#8217;s Aerospace Organization, said on Sunday.

&#8220;Meshkat cruise missile will have submarine-, ground- and air-launched properties and could also be fired from a warplane,&#8221; the general said.

Farahi said the Iranian Defense Ministry has already produced five cruise missiles, namely, Zafar, Nasr, Noor, Qaser and Ghadir, adding that the development of nine more cruise missiles is under study.


He went on to say that Iran is upgrading the &#8220;precision, radar-invasiveness, tactical aspects and durability&#8221; of its missiles.

The general, however, noted that the development of cluster warheads does not lie within Iran&#8217;s defense strategies, stressing that the country has done a lot in tweaking missile warheads, which is an important factor in upgrading ballistic missiles.

Farahi played down the US deployment of missile defense systems in the region, saying they could never overpower Iranian missiles. &#8220;We hope that nothing would happen. But if any confrontation is to take place, they will see how their claims will turn out to be groundless.&#8221;

In recent years, Iran has made great achievements in the defense sector and gained self-sufficiency in essential military hardware and defense systems.

Iran has repeatedly assured other nations, especially regional neighbors, that its military might poses no threat to other countries, insisting that its defense doctrine is merely based on deterrence.

*The pictures might be useful to see :*





Russian Kh-55 cruise missile






Karrar (UCAV)


Karrar (Persian: &#1705;&#1585;&#1575;&#1585;&#8206; karr&#257;r, "striker", nickname of Ali, first Imam of Shi'a,) is an unmanned combat air vehicle produced for the military of Iran. According to reports, the UCAV can bomb targets at high speed. It is the first long-range unmanned aerial drone manufactured in Iran.

Iranian state TV said the Karrar has a range of 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) and could carry two 115 kilograms (250 lb) bombs, or a precision-guided munition of 227 kilograms (500 lb). The Karrar can also carry four Kowsar light anti-ship missiles or one Nasr-1 anti-ship missile. The Karrar unmanned combat air vehicle is 4 metres (13 ft) long and has a turbojet engine which can reach the speed of 900 kilometres per hour (560 mph). The Karrar uses a rocket assist system to assist in take off and is recovered by parachute.

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## The SiLent crY

*Ya Zahra air defense system :*














Ya Zahra air defense system

Type : Light , mobile air defense system

Used by : IRGC AF

Designed : 2012

Width : 2.2m

Height : 1.5m


Ya Zahra (Persian: &#1740;&#1575; &#1586;&#1607;&#1585;&#1575;&#1569;, Zahra: Prophet's daughter name) is an air defence system designed by Iranian engineers. This system was designed to enhance Iran's short range capabilities in the field of air defense and equipments. Unlike Raad which uses 3 Taer missiles, Ya Zahra uses 2 light missile launcher. The system is designed in a short period of time according to Iranians, the commander of Khatam ol-Anbia air defense base brigadier general Farzad Esmaieli: "This low-altitude missile system has been designed and produced in a short period of time based on domestic needs. Ya Zahra missile system's capabilities include deployment under all types of weather conditions and on different lands as well as its mobility". This system was successfully tested in Defenders of Velayat Skies 4 air defense drills. The time of replacing missiles batteries and the engagement altitude are much less than Raad.

*News :*

TEHRAN, Jan. 27 (MNA) &#8211; Iran's Defense Minister has unveiled assembly line for &#8216;Ya Zahra&#8217; and Mersad air defense systems. These systems are capable of targeting different planes, helicopters, drones, and Cruise missiles.

In unveiling ceremony of &#8216;Ya Zahra&#8217; air defense assembly line and Mersad systems large-scale delivery to Khatam al-Anbia Construction Headquarters, Brigadier General Ahmad Vahidi told reporters that with help from God, &#8220;now, we are unveiling one of the brilliant achievements in Aerospace Industries of Ministry of Defense, namely, designing and developing &#8216;Ya Zahra&#8217; air defense system.&#8221;

Vahidi praised the achievement as &#8220;completing the chain of self-sufficiency in design and development of short-range air defense systems&#8221; in the country.

&#8220;The system is capable of identifying, tracking, and destroying air targets such as airplanes, helicopters, and drones in short range,&#8221; he said.

Vahidi also pointed to Mersad systems large-scale delivery, saying that &#8220;Mersad surface-to-air missile system is medium-range highly advanced system, capable of offensive operations against fighter jets, helicopters, drones, and Cruise missiles.&#8221;


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## The SiLent crY

Some pictures of Ya Zahra air defense system , posted by my friend ( Soheil ) in another thread :


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## The SiLent crY

Ya Zahra air defense system

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## Babak01

we can progress very fast


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## Uhuhu

*SHORT RANGE ARASH ROCKET*






*General Specifications:*
122 mm rocket projectiles are used against enemy man-power in the open and in the field shelters, soft
skinned equipment, armored personnel carriers, command posts and other targets. This rocket can be
fired with a launcher that is compatible with BM-21.


*Technical Specifications:*

Maximum Range : 12 km

Minimum Range 1.5 km

Rate of fire: 40 Rounds in 20 seconds

Caliber: 122 mm

Total weight: 44 kg

Maximum velocity: 530 m/s

Length: 1850 mm

Warhead: HE Fragmentation

Weight of Warhead: 19 kg

Fuse: Mechanical Impact

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## The SiLent crY

Uhuhu said:


> *SHORT RANGE ARASH ROCKET*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *General Specifications:*
> 122 mm rocket projectiles are used against enemy man-power in the open and in the field shelters, soft
> skinned equipment, armored personnel carriers, command posts and other targets. This rocket can be
> fired with a launcher that is compatible with BM-21.
> 
> 
> *Technical Specifications:*
> 
> Maximum Range : 12 km
> 
> Minimum Range 1.5 km
> 
> Rate of fire: 40 Rounds in 20 seconds
> 
> Caliber: 122 mm
> 
> Total weight: 44 kg
> 
> Maximum velocity: 530 m/s
> 
> Length: 1850 mm
> 
> Warhead: HE Fragmentation
> 
> Weight of Warhead: 19 kg
> 
> Fuse: Mechanical Impact



Thanks my friend , I think these sticky threads should be updated .

I'll try to do it and hope other Iranian members help

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## Uhuhu

*STANDARD ARASH ROCKET*






*General Specifications:*
122 mm rocket projectiles are used against enemy man-power in the open and in field shelters, Soft
skinned equipment, armored personnel carriers, command posts and other targets. This rocket can be
fired with a launcher that is compatible with BM-21.

*Technical Specifications:*

Maximum Effective Range : 21 Km

Minimum range: 1.6 Km

Rate of fire: 40 rounds in 20 seconds

Caliber: 122 mm

Total Weight: 65 kg

Maximum velocity: 710 m/s

Length: 2860 mm

Warhead: HE Fragmentation

Weight of Warhead: 19 Kg

Fuse: Mechanical Impact

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## Uhuhu

*ARASH 122 mm*







Arash 1: Range : 21.5 km, Length : 2.815m, Velocity : 710 m/s
Arash 2: Range : 30 km, Length : 2.815m, Velocity : 1050 m/s
Arash 3: Range : 18 km, Length : 2.050m, Velocity : 720 m/s
Arash 4: Range : 40 km, Length : 2.890m, Warhead Types :HE fragmentation, ball steel, mine and fuel air

The export pages say that Arash 4 has a different launching system than other variants.
All of them are fired from 40 tube launchers

















an Palestinian soldier is preparing an Arash rocket for lunch

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## Uhuhu

*LONG RANGE ARASH ROCKET*






*General Specifications:*
122 mm rocket projectiles are used against enemy man-power in the open and in field shelters, Soft
skinned equipment, armored personnel carriers, command posts and other targets. This rocket can be
fired with a launcher that is compatible with BM-21.

*Technical Specifications:*

Maximum Range : 40 km

Minimum Range: 4 km

Rate of fire: 40 Rounds in 20 seconds

Caliber: 122 mm

Total weight: 67.5 kg

Maximum velocity: 1100 m/s

Length: 2892 mm

Warhead: HE Fragmentation

Weight of Warhead: 22 kg

Fuse: Mechanical Impact

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## Informant

These are unguided rockets? What are they doing on a boat then?


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## Uhuhu

Informant said:


> These are unguided rockets? What are they doing on a boat then?



They are good to attack to oil tankers or other ships in Persian gulf and strait of hormoz. and in large numbers can be dangerous for warships.

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## yavar



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## Hakan

Uhuhu said:


> They are good to attack to oil tankers or other ships in Persian gulf and strait of hormoz. and in large numbers can be dangerous for warships.


What kind of missiles are these armed with? Are they guided or unguided? Both have their own advantages depending on the scenario.

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## The SiLent crY

*Pictures of Iranian Missile Silos :*

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## SOHEIL

Comparison of Asian national space programs | Page 12

Enough for trolls! 

The big big big monster coming...

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## SOHEIL

Much bigger than Vega & PSLV!

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## kollang

Great news !!!

As this source mentioned, this project is just completed.
http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/449042/شاگردان-طهرانی‌مقدم-کار-را-تمام-کردند

We all trust in you , @SOHEIL jan.keep up the great job.

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## rahi2357

فارس گزارش می‌دهد
جزئیاتی از آخرین پروژه شهید طهرانی‌مقدم/ موشک ۴ مرحله‌ای «قائم» برای ورود به مدار ۱۰۰۰ کیلومتری
برای اینکه اهل فن بدانند آخرین پروژه شهید طهرانی‌مقدم چه ارزش، سختی و تکنولوژی بالایی دارد، در مرحله اول آن، از یک موتور با قطری در حدود 3.5 متر و طول ۲۰ متر استفاده می‌شد.







*گروه امنیتی دفاعی خبرگزاری فارس- *روز یکشنبه 21 آبان 90 سردار شهید حسن طهرانی مقدم رئیس سازمان جهاد خودکفایی سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی در حین انجام یکی از مهمترین پروژه‌های هوافضا، در پی وقوع انفجاری مهیب به همراه تعدادی از نیروهای صنعت موشکی سپاه به شهادت رسید.

شواهد و قرائن نشان می‌داد که این پروژه یکی از مهمترین و موثرترین پروژه‌هایی بود که توسط این شهید بزرگوار پیگیری می‌شد.

به گفته سردار محمد طهرانی مقدم (برادر شهید)، حاج حسن 2 روز قبل از شهادت -در روز جمعه- خدمت مادر بزرگوار خود رسیده و به ایشان می گوید که ما «کار بزرگی» در پیش داریم و 3مرتبه از مادر می خواهد برای موفقیت در این پروژه دعا کند.


سردار شهید حسن طهرانی مقدم

چند روز قبل و در آستانه سومین سال شهادت طهرانی مقدم، سردار رمضان شریف مسئول روابط عمومی کل سپاه در یک نشست خبری از «_به ثمرنشستن_» آخرین پروژه شهید طهرانی مقدم سخن گفت اما جزئیاتی از آن اعلام نکرد.

در همین راستا فتح الله اُمّی معاون معاونت علمی رییس جمهور و استاد رشته هوافضا که از دوستان و همکاران نزدیک شهید طهرانی مقدم بود، به جزئیات بیشتری از این موضوع پرداخت.

اُمّی که در برنامه تلویزیونی ثریا سخن می‌گفت، با بیان اینکه ما بواسطه کارمان جلسات متعددی با شهید طهرانی مقدم داشتیم، به ورود این شهید بزرگوار در حوزه فضایی و ساخت موشک‌های حامل ماهواره (ماهواره‌بر) اشاره کرد و گفت: وقتی توانستیم با استفاده از موشک سوخت مایع ماهواره «امید» را در مدار لئو -فاصله مدار لئو 240 تا 400 کیلومتر است- قرار دهیم، از همانجا شهید طهرانی مقدم هدف‌گذاری بعدی خود را اعلام کرد. او هیچگاه نمی گفت که ما موفق شدیم و کار تمام است، می‌گفت حالا باید بریم به سمت مدار بالاتر تا بتوانیم ماهواره را در فاصله 1000 کیلومتری قرار دهیم.

وی اظهار داشت: شهید مقدم می‌گفت باید راهی را انتخاب کنیم که ماهواره‌بر، ساده‌تر ولی با توان بیشتری باشد. برای همین بود که سوخت جامد را انتخاب کرد.

این استاد رشته هوافضا ادامه داد: سوخت جامد در مقایسه با سوخت مایع ساده‌تر است اما خطرات و ریسک بسیار بالایی دارد به طوری که در دنیا تنها فرانسه از فضاپیماهای با سوخت جامد استفاده می‌کند که آن هم تکنولوژی پیچیده‌ای دارد که لو نمی‌دهد.

اُمّی افزود: با این حال، شهید مقدم گفت من این خطر را قبول می‌کنم و شروع به ساخت پروژه جدید کرد تا ماهواره بر با سوخت جامد بتواند ماهواره را در مدار 1000 کیلومتری قرار دهد.

وی خاطرنشان کرد: این پروژه «موشک قائم» بود که یک موشک «4 مرحله‌ای» تماما با سوخت جامد است. در سه مرحله تستها موفق بود و در مرحله آخر این اتفاق افتاد.

استاد رشته هوافضا با بیان اینکه بسیاری از مشخصات این پروژه محرمانه بوده و قابل بیان نیست، گفت: فقط برای اینکه اهل فن بدانند این پروژه چه ارزش، سختی و تکنولوژی بالایی دارد، در مرحله اول ما از یک موتور استفاده می‌کردیم که قطری در حدود 3.5 متر و طول 20 متر داشت و کارشناسان این حوزه می‌دانند کار بر روی این موتور با سوخت جامد چقدر سخت است..

امی تصریح کرد: سردار مقدم برای اولین بار توانست «کنترل بردار رانش» (TVC (Thrust Vector control را در ایران تست کند.

به گزارش فارس، این سیستم در حین ماموریت موشک خصوصا در فضای خارج از جو برای هدایت و تغییر مسیر موشک به کار گرفته می‌شود که مدل‌های ساده‌تر آن در موشک‌های دیگر ایرانی نظیر شهاب (با سوخت مایع) استفاده شد و نمونه اول این سامانه نیز در موتور مرحله دوم ماهواره بر سفیر (با سوخت مایع) استفاده عملیاتی شده بود.

- See more at: فارس گزارش می‌دهد جزئیاتی از آخرین پروژه شهید طهرانی‌مقدم/ موشک ۴ مرحله‌ای «قائم» برای ورود به مدار ۱۰۰۰ کیلومتری

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## SOHEIL

If you want an imagination about the first stage of this monster: 

http://www.enjoyspace.com/uploads/portfolios/octobre2009/ares_vol/02-ares-vol.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Ares_I-X_launch_08.jpg

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## kollang

@SOHEIL 
Whats up with the IK launch center?

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## SOHEIL

kollang said:


> @SOHEIL
> Whats up with the IK launch center?



IK belongs to liquid fuel launchers as i know! 

This is the...

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Shahrud_Missile-Range/Shahrud_2.jpg

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Shahrud_Missile-Range/Shahrud_4.jpg

Satellite imagery acquired by DigitalGlobe in 2012 and 2013 shows the construction of the new launch facility located in Semnan province, 40 km southeast of Shahrud. The unfinished site has no storage facilities for liquid rocket fuel needed for rockets that launch satellites , which suggests it is built for ballistic missiles using solid fuel .
Satellite images of the structure, just published by IHS Jane’s Military and Security Assessments, shows a 23 (wrong!) meters tall  launch tower sitting on a launch pad measuring *200 x 140m*. The images also shows a *125 meters long exhaust deflector*. The launch site is located in a large area with infrastructure.

This is what western running media says! 

But you know...

*125 meters long exhaust deflector !*
*
No Comment *

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## yavar



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## yavar

kollang said:


> @SOHEIL
> Whats up with the IK launch center?


nothing

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## mohsen

SOHEIL said:


> If you want an imagination about the first stage of this monster:
> 
> http://www.enjoyspace.com/uploads/portfolios/octobre2009/ares_vol/02-ares-vol.jpg
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Ares_I-X_launch_08.jpg


what do you think about it's maximum payload?

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## SOHEIL

mohsen said:


> what do you think about it's maximum payload?



Still no idea! 

I need more informations about other stages for calculation!

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## jha

Good Job Iran... Really happy to see another Asian Country going up there.. 

BTW I have a feeling that this just might be a "multi purpose" SLV

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## Mike_Brando

My heartiest Congratulation to all the Iranian brothers and sisters in this forum.Iran is indeed doing an outstanding job in the field of Space research despite being sanctioned by all major western countries.This shows the quality of the Iranian scientists and technicians.I am sure that one day India and Iran will work together in this field.Anyways Good Luck in advance to all Iranian friends and allies specially @haman10

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## haman10

Mike_Brando said:


> Anyways Good Luck in advance to all Iranian friends and allies specially @haman10


Tnx dear  

you made a very good point regarding cooperation between iran and india in this field .

india is a merging superpower in field of space tech and our cooperation would be a Win-Win for both sides yaar .

i hope under the leadership of hasan rouhani in iran and Mr. modi in india , big pleasant changes occur in our already-amicable ties .

cheers 



jha said:


> "multi purpose" SLV


hehe lol .

exactly  Nice observation

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## haman10

SOHEIL said:


> 125 meters long exhaust deflector !


holly hell , the day we launch our first sat. with this baby , i'll be here .

and that day , i'll mention all the haters and BS spewers on the forum and i'll post this :

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## atatwolf

SOHEIL said:


> The big big big monster coming...


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## Guynextdoor2

SOHEIL said:


> Much bigger than Vega & PSLV!

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## Mike_Brando

haman10 said:


> Tnx dear
> 
> *you made a very good point regarding cooperation between iran and india in this field .
> 
> india is a merging superpower in field of space tech and our cooperation would be a Win-Win for both sides yaar .
> 
> i hope under the leadership of hasan rouhani in iran and Mr. modi in india , big pleasant changes occur in our already-amicable ties .*
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> hehe lol .
> 
> exactly  Nice observation


Indeed my friend,i am cent percent sure of Indo-Iranian co-operation in the field of Space and defense in the near future as both of us have a huge pool of talented scientists,researcher and technicians and it'll be a win-win situation for us.I am just waiting for the day when an Indo-Iranian joint space probe will be sent in space.
Anyways,how are you??Have you completed your MBBS course by now???

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## haman10

Mike_Brando said:


> Anyways,how are you??Have you completed your MBBS course by now???


Tnx bro , everything's alright mate ....

MBBS courses are offered in countries that follow UK medical education tradition like India 

but iran follows USA in this regard , thus we don't have such a course .

in stead we have pre-med , pre-internship and internship and finally M.D .....

i am a pre-intern right now 

thanks for asking , how are u doing brother ? everythings alright ? satisfied with the salary ?

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## Mike_Brando

haman10 said:


> Tnx bro , everything's alright mate ....
> 
> MBBS courses are offered in countries that follow UK medical education tradition like India
> 
> but iran follows USA in this regard , thus we don't have such a course .
> 
> in stead we have pre-med , pre-internship and internship and finally M.D .....
> 
> i am a pre-intern right now
> 
> thanks for asking , how are u doing brother ? everythings alright ? satisfied with the salary ?


Nah i am still to get a job.Just finished my masters in Commerce(Specifically Accountancy) this year.Now i am preparing for the West Bengal Civil Service Exam(my province's most coveted civil and police service exam) to be a high ranking Police officer in the West Bengal Police Force.It's basically a three tier exam.I have managed to pass the 1st tier quite easily,now preparing for the 2nd tier one

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## haman10

Mike_Brando said:


> my masters in Commerce(Specifically Accountancy)


oh my , i thought you were studying law 

my bad , sorry ....

Good for you doc !!! congrats !!! 



Mike_Brando said:


> to be a high ranking Police officer in the West Bengal Police Force


we muslims say inshaallah !!! 

wish you all success buddy !! keep up the good work officer !!

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## SOHEIL

haman10 said:


> holly hell , the day we launch our first sat. with this baby , i'll be here .
> 
> and that day , i'll mention all the haters and BS spewers on the forum and i'll post this :
> 
> View attachment 150957

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## SOHEIL

jha said:


> Good Job Iran... Really happy to see another Asian Country going up there..
> 
> BTW I have a feeling that this just might be a "multi purpose" SLV



Diameter: 3.5m

Can't be serious!

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## jha

SOHEIL said:


> Diameter: 3.5m
> 
> Can't be serious!



Yes... Thats true.

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## RAMPAGE

Congratulations to Iran and best of luck !!!

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## SOHEIL

jha said:


> Yes... Thats true.



Too big for a delivery system!

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## SOHEIL

rahi2357 said:


> how about this :
> " the DF-5 was stored in a horizontal position in tunnels under high mountains, and are launched immediately outside the mouth of the tunnel. "



Even proton was an ICBM...

but not in 21 century!

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## SOHEIL

UR-500 ICBM

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## Hakan

The map is from 2009. Whats the latest range?​

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## Serpentine

Hakan said:


> View attachment 152388
> 
> 
> The map is from 2009. Whats the latest range?​



Those Shahab 4 and 5 are non existent and only speculation. As far as I know, Khamaeni has directly ordered that the range of Iran's missiles be limited to 2100 Km which currently is enough to target any enemy state nearby and that only Israel being in range is enough. Perhaps the reason is that without nuclear warhead, developing an ICBM is a waste of money.

But, it was revealed days ago that Iran has finished building Qaem, a huge 4 stage space launcher. If it's successfully tested, with few modifications, it can become an ICBM with range of more than 10,000 Km, but I don't think an ICBM version will be built.

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## Hakan

Serpentine said:


> Those Shahab 4 and 5 are non existent and only speculation. As far as I know, Khamaeni has directly ordered that the range of Iran's missiles be limited to 2100 Km which currently is enough to target any enemy state nearby and that only Israel being in range is enough. Perhaps the reason is that without nuclear warhead, developing an ICBM is a waste of money.
> 
> But, it was revealed days ago that Iran has finished building Qaem, a huge 4 stage space launcher. If it's successfully tested, with few modifications, it can become an ICBM with range of more than 10,000 Km, but I don't think an ICBM version will be built.


Any plans for 2000km + cruise missiles?

I saw the naval ones.

*Edit:*

Found it



The SiLent crY said:


> *Meshkat Cruise missile :*
> 
> The Meshkat (Persian: &#1605;&#1588;&#1705;&#1575;&#1578; , Lantern) is a medium range cruise missile built by Iran.
> 
> Iranian media quoted Iran's deputy defense minister on September 9, 2012, that a medium range cruise missile will be revealed soon. The missile can be fired from ground, air and sea and will have a range of 2000 km.
> 
> The missile is possibly a reverse engineered version of Kh-55 that Iran obtained from Ukraine in 2001 or an extension to a drone design called Karrar which was revealed in 2010 .
> 
> A report about Meshkat :
> 
> Iran's deputy defense minister has announced the country plans to unveil a homegrown medium-range cruise missile in the near future.
> 
> &#8220;Meshkat cruise missile, which God willing will be unveiled soon, has a range of more than 2,000 kilometers. It will be the upper hand of the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran,&#8221; Brigadier General Mehdi Farahi, who is also the director of Defense Ministry&#8217;s Aerospace Organization, said on Sunday.
> 
> &#8220;Meshkat cruise missile will have submarine-, ground- and air-launched properties and could also be fired from a warplane,&#8221; the general said.
> 
> Farahi said the Iranian Defense Ministry has already produced five cruise missiles, namely, Zafar, Nasr, Noor, Qaser and Ghadir, adding that the development of nine more cruise missiles is under study.
> 
> 
> He went on to say that Iran is upgrading the &#8220;precision, radar-invasiveness, tactical aspects and durability&#8221; of its missiles.
> 
> The general, however, noted that the development of cluster warheads does not lie within Iran&#8217;s defense strategies, stressing that the country has done a lot in tweaking missile warheads, which is an important factor in upgrading ballistic missiles.
> 
> Farahi played down the US deployment of missile defense systems in the region, saying they could never overpower Iranian missiles. &#8220;We hope that nothing would happen. But if any confrontation is to take place, they will see how their claims will turn out to be groundless.&#8221;
> 
> In recent years, Iran has made great achievements in the defense sector and gained self-sufficiency in essential military hardware and defense systems.
> 
> Iran has repeatedly assured other nations, especially regional neighbors, that its military might poses no threat to other countries, insisting that its defense doctrine is merely based on deterrence.
> 
> *The pictures might be useful to see :*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian Kh-55 cruise missile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karrar (UCAV)
> 
> 
> Karrar (Persian: &#1705;&#1585;&#1575;&#1585;&#8206; karr&#257;r, "striker", nickname of Ali, first Imam of Shi'a,) is an unmanned combat air vehicle produced for the military of Iran. According to reports, the UCAV can bomb targets at high speed. It is the first long-range unmanned aerial drone manufactured in Iran.
> 
> Iranian state TV said the Karrar has a range of 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) and could carry two 115 kilograms (250 lb) bombs, or a precision-guided munition of 227 kilograms (500 lb). The Karrar can also carry four Kowsar light anti-ship missiles or one Nasr-1 anti-ship missile. The Karrar unmanned combat air vehicle is 4 metres (13 ft) long and has a turbojet engine which can reach the speed of 900 kilometres per hour (560 mph). The Karrar uses a rocket assist system to assist in take off and is recovered by parachute.

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## haman10

Serpentine said:


> Those Shahab 4 and 5 are non existent and only speculation. As far as I know, Khamaeni has directly ordered that the range of Iran's missiles be limited to 2100 Km which currently is enough to target any enemy state nearby and that only Israel being in range is enough. Perhaps the reason is that without nuclear warhead, developing an ICBM is a waste of money.


not true , shahab 5 is ashoura missile with 2000 km range .

want to know the difference ? accuracy , impact , RCS , ....

only name misunderstanding .

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## Serpentine

haman10 said:


> not true , shahab 5 is ashoura missile with 2000 km range .
> 
> want to know the difference ? accuracy , impact , RCS , ....
> 
> only name misunderstanding .



I was referring to the picture above which said it has a range of 3,500 km, which officially doesn't exist. about 2,000 ones, you can call them anything you like.

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## haman10

Serpentine said:


> I was referring to the picture above which said it has a range of 3,500 km, which officially doesn't exist. about 2,000 ones, you can call them anything you like.


fact of the matter is that :

1- iran wanted to expand the soviet originated tech to Stealth , accurate and effective medium range missiles which we succeeded in .

2- develop it's own engines from the bottom to top for higher ranges as Inter-continental-ballistic missiles and SLVs . like Ghaem , Sepehr , Sarir , Ghoghnoos , ....

P.S : the soviet nodung engines are not soviet anymore since the upgrades and new tech adaptions ... its like relating the newly inaugurated Iphone 8 to Iphone 3 , its ridiculous . hence the huge variations

P.P.S :
unfortunately IRGC Aerospace Force likes disclosure more than anything !! thats why we estimate the range of some (limited ones not all of them) missiles to be 2000kms where they actually can be relatively higher .

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## scythian500

SOHEIL said:


> Comparison of Asian national space programs | Page 12
> 
> Enough for trolls!
> 
> The big big big monster coming...


doost joonam always be fair especially with enemies " Imam Ali (PBUH)

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## Kamal_Jamal

I’m not even Iranian but I’m very excited about this development. Anyone know the timeframe that this SLV and two launch sites be officially unveiled for public consumption?

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## Serpentine

Kamal_Jamal said:


> I’m not even Iranian but I’m very excited about this development. Anyone know the timeframe that this SLV and two launch sites be officially unveiled for public consumption?



They said it has finished final stages, but when they are going to show it? I don't think it would be long.

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## kurup

Congratulations ..... 

What is the Payload capacity ? Any guesses @SOHEIL , @haman10

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## AUz

Whats the purpose of this thread again?

If Iran has sophisticated SLV program..then let them launch it. Let the world/experts verify it..and then we can celebrate.

Until then, its all hocus pocus.

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## jarves

Congratulations Iran.

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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> Congratulations .....
> 
> What is the Payload capacity ? Any guesses @SOHEIL , @haman10



Around 5 tons to LEO ... maybe more !

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


> Around 5 tons to LEO ... maybe more !



A jump from few kgs to 5 ton ..... almost the capacity of a MK2 .

Isn't it too soon ??

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## Water Car Engineer

@SOHEIL 

Picture, sir.

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## haman10

kurup said:


> A jump from few kgs to 5 ton ..... almost the capacity of a MK2 .
> 
> Isn't it too soon ??


well we are not going to have a launch in 2-3 years , also these kind of projects are not related and developed from each other . they are pursued in parallel to each other .

so nah bro , its not "too" soon . if we let the time slip , we are far left behind by space powers

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## Shahryar Hedayati

SEDJIL-2 is a solid-fuel, 3-stage , anti ship ballistic missile
It has range of 2000 to 2500 km
The missile weighs 23 tons and It will hit its target at a speed of *Mach 13*





It appears SEDJIL-2 ASBM project has not yet completed



----------------------------
Raw Footage from TASNIM NEWS

http://www.tabnak.ir/files/fa/news/1393/9/5/446558_544.flv

66MB

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## mohsen

excellent!

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## yavar



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## zaid butt

good

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## ResurgentIran

Bah bah

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## monaspa

new or or just newly released?

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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> A jump from few kgs to 5 ton ..... almost the capacity of a MK2 .
> 
> Isn't it too soon ??



Done after 8 years! 

I don't think so ...

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## SOHEIL

Water Car Engineer said:


> @SOHEIL
> 
> Picture, sir.



You can have my rendering for now

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## Echo_419

SOHEIL said:


> You can have my rendering for now
> 
> View attachment 157761



Looks good all the best to Iran for developing this

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## raptor22

monaspa said:


> new or or just newly released?


Just newly released.

The background voices at the beggining remind me Delta force video game that I was playing back early 2000.

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## HRK

Congratulations to Iranian brothers .....

But I think there is some misreporting about the stages of Missile as the screen grab from YouTube video shows just Two stages of the missile.







'warhead thrusters'

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## yavar



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## yavar

Iran Hormuz 1 & 2 anti radars and anti ship ballistic missiles

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## yavar

Iran Shahab 3 MRBM ballistic missile

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## yavar

Iran Zalzal class Raad 307 model missile

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## yavar

Iran Zelzal guided rocket

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## yavar

Iran Zelzal rocket s

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## yavar

*Iran Iranian T V documentary " 7 minutes to Israel "*
*



**



**



*

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## yavar

Iran documentary Shahid Tehrani Moghadam " Frontline "

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## yavar



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## yavar



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## yavar



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## fafarkhan

yavar said:


>


good to see you here yavar 
one question 
can u compare sejil 2 with any pak missile ?

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## yavar

fafarkhan said:


> good to see you here yavar
> one question
> can u compare sejil 2 with any pak missile ?


in MRBM class no chance .none . they do nt have anything as good this as long range as this . themaxim range of Sejil 2 fully fuel is never been announced .

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## fafarkhan

yavar said:


> in MRBM class no chance .none . they do nt have anything as good this as long range as this . themaxim range of Sejil 2 fully fuel is never been announced .


no doubt ...they never do 
but buy little guess it must be over 3,500 
by the way i remeber you said once sejil is absoulote missile in iranian arsenal

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## yavar

fafarkhan said:


> by the way i remeber you said once sejil is absoulote missile in iranian arsenal


yes is out of service .


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## fafarkhan

yavar said:


> yes is out of service .


ARE WE TALKING ONE OF THOSE FAT ,POWERFUL MISSILE LIKE CHINESS DF20.?


----------



## Shahryar Hedayati

IRAN DEFENSE PRODUCTS CATALOG 

FULL VERSION

http://www.mindexcenter.ir/sites/default/files/advertisment/files/Mindex Catalog.zip

6MB
PDF

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## yavar

Iran documentary Shahid Tehrani Moghadam " Frontline " Part 4 مستند خط مقدم







مستند «خط مقدم» در چند قسمت تهیه شده و در آن فرماندهان سپاه و نیروی هوافضای سپاه به ارایه مطالب خود می پردازند که آن تقدیم می گردد.
گفتني است در این قسمتها براي نخستين بار مطالب قابل توجهي در خصوص فعاليتهاي شهيد تهراني مقدم در شكل گيري توپخانه و موشكي سپاه پاسداران بيان شده است.


The documentaries "Frontline" made in several parts with the IRGC Aerospace Force commanders on their own presentations will be presented.
It is notable in these segments for the first time, a substantial content of the activities of brigadier general Shahid Tehrani Moghadam which leaded to the formation of artillery and missile force of Iran's Revolutionary Guards corps been expressed.

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## yavar



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## jammersat

Zelzal:











Sejjil :

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## fafarkhan

SOHEIL said:


> You can have my rendering for now
> 
> View attachment 157761


how tall you think it would be ?
does it need to be lunched in imam khomeini space staion ?
is it finished yet?


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## SrNair

SOHEIL said:


> Much bigger than Vega & PSLV!




What??
Larger than PSLV .Congratulations guys.
We have lost on possible space market 
All the Best guys

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## kurup

sreekumar said:


> What??
> Larger than PSLV .Congratulations guys.
> We have lost on possible space market
> All the Best guys



Space market ..... NO ..... it will take many years for Iran to be a credible player in the space *market* .

Iran , IMO , is concentrated more on launching for themselves .

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## SrNair

kurup said:


> Space market ..... NO ..... it will take many years for Iran to be a credible player in the space *market* .
> 
> Iran , IMO , is concentrated more on launching for themselves .



Lol.I was talking about the non existence of satellites launch orders from Iran in future.In future if these sanction problem goes once and for all.They will need a large number of satellites.
If they can create a credible SLV launcher they dont need our launching support at that time.
That was I am talking about.

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## kurup

sreekumar said:


> Lol.I was talking about the non existence of satellites launch orders from Iran in future.In future if these sanction problem goes once and for all.They will need a large number of satellites.
> If they can create a credible SLV launcher they dont need our launching support at that time.
> That was I am talking about.



Have we ever launched their satellites ?? ...... I don't think so .

Even then this rocket can launch upto 5 tons to LEO ....... Heavier satellites upto 10tons to LEO can be launched by us for them in the future .

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## SrNair

kurup said:


> Have we ever launched their satellites ?? ...... I don't think so .
> 
> Even then this rocket can launch upto 5 tons to LEO ....... Heavier satellites upto 10tons to LEO can be launched by us for them in the future .



I am talking about a possible future chances.
You know a lot about our Antrix business. .

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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> Have we ever launched their satellites ?? ...... I don't think so .
> 
> Even then this rocket can launch upto 5 tons to LEO ....... Heavier satellites upto 10tons to LEO can be launched by us for them in the future .



Not exactly !

We are talking about a family of space launchers !

& ghaem will be the first one ...

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


> Not exactly !
> 
> We are talking about a family of space launchers !
> 
> & ghaem will be the first one ...



Are these rockets going to be full solid fuelled ??


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## jammersat

kurup said:


> Are these rockets going to be full solid fuelled ??


after the catastrophic experiments in Tehran , probably not


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## kurup

jammersat said:


> after the catastrophic experiments in Tehran , probably not



What catastrophic experiments ??


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## Arminkh

kurup said:


> What catastrophic experiments ??


There was a big explosion in one of missile research centers about 2 years ago that killed the father of Iranian missile technology. It is said that he was working on using solid fuel for this project.

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## Cinder

Uh oh  high five folks!

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## Arya Desa

Wonderful news! Hopefully we can get some cross-borders cooperation. Even heavily sanctioned, Iran has a more developed space program than pakistan. That shows you the Iranians hard work and brilliance.

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## Oldman1

jammersat said:


> after the catastrophic experiments in Tehran , probably not



That shouldn't be enough to deter them.


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## Arminkh

Oldman1 said:


> That shouldn't be enough to deter them.


That's true as well!

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## haman10

Oldman1 said:


> That shouldn't be enough to deter them.


kidding me ? of course not .....

killed astronauts didn't deter u , why would an explosion deter us ? 

just sayin ..

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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> Are these rockets going to be full solid fuelled ??



Not all of them!



Oldman1 said:


> That shouldn't be enough to deter them.



It was just an accident.

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


> Not all of them!



So some are going to use liquid fuels .

5 tons to LEO using solid and liquid fuels is going to result in a massive rocket .

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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> So some are going to use liquid fuels .
> 
> 5 tons to LEO using solid and liquid fuels is going to result in a massive rocket .



It will be much higher ...

In biggest version (which planned for 2030) the rocket will be something like SLS !

2 extended first stage of ghaem as strap on boosters!

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## jack 86000

بعد از شهادت ایشان، خبرهایی درباره به ثمر نشستن موشکی که ایشان در حال کار روی آن بود، منتشر و اعلام شد که به ثمر رسیده است. می‌توانید جزئیات بیشتری در خصوص این موشک ارائه دهید؟

آن موشک 40 تن وزن دارد و 90 کیلومتر از فضا خارج می‌شود. این موشک، بالستیک و دوربرد است. وقتی ما وارد جو شدیم، جو محدودیت زمین را ندارد و به هر هدفی می‌تواند برسد. حتی ایشان طرح‌هایی داشت که اگر آمریکا مستقیما وارد شیطنت با ما شود، ما از طریق سیستم موشکی پاسخ آنها را بدهیم.

نصرالله درباره شهید تهرانی‌مقدم چه گفت؟ - سایت خبری تحلیلی تابناك|اخبار ایران و جهان|TABNAK

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## SOHEIL

jack 86000 said:


> بعد از شهادت ایشان، خبرهایی درباره به ثمر نشستن موشکی که ایشان در حال کار روی آن بود، منتشر و اعلام شد که به ثمر رسیده است. می‌توانید جزئیات بیشتری در خصوص این موشک ارائه دهید؟
> 
> آن موشک 40 تن وزن دارد و 90 کیلومتر از فضا خارج می‌شود. این موشک، بالستیک و دوربرد است. وقتی ما وارد جو شدیم، جو محدودیت زمین را ندارد و به هر هدفی می‌تواند برسد. حتی ایشان طرح‌هایی داشت که اگر آمریکا مستقیما وارد شیطنت با ما شود، ما از طریق سیستم موشکی پاسخ آنها را بدهیم.
> 
> نصرالله درباره شهید تهرانی‌مقدم چه گفت؟ - سایت خبری تحلیلی تابناك|اخبار ایران و جهان|TABNAK



حرفهایی که در مورد مسائل فنی زدن اشتباه است 

ولی در مورد اینکه ما موشک بالستیک قاره پیما با برد متغیر 8 تا 11 هزار کیلومتر داریم صحیح هست 

البته این بحث ربطی به قائم نداره

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## SOHEIL



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## trident2010

Good luck !!

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## IRAN 1802

SOHEIL said:


> حرفهایی که در مورد مسائل فنی زدن اشتباه است
> 
> ولی در مورد اینکه ما موشک بالستیک قاره پیما با برد متغیر 8 تا 11 هزار کیلومتر داریم صحیح هست
> 
> البته این بحث ربطی به قائم نداره


 آقا سهیل وقتی ما نمیخایم هیچگونه فعالیت نظامی اتمی داشته باشیم (که کاملا هم درست هست) موشک 11000 کیلومتری به چه درد ما میخوره?

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## SOHEIL

IRAN 1802 said:


> آقا سهیل وقتی ما نمیخایم هیچگونه فعالیت نظامی اتمی داشته باشیم (که کاملا هم درست هست) موشک 11000 کیلومتری به چه درد ما میخوره?



@yavar

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar





IRAN 1802 said:


> آقا سهیل وقتی ما نمیخایم هیچگونه فعالیت نظامی اتمی داشته باشیم (که کاملا هم درست هست) موشک 11000 کیلومتری به چه درد ما میخوره?


Brother IRAN 1802 this is answer which you looking for. . Netandog is going is explaining it . Look at quote below and watch and listen carefully


yavar said:


> just wait there's not much left only few months then we will settle this with you .
> 
> I am believer of Netandong . I believe what him because he got Mossad report to him and see there reports + He see satellite imagery of Iran every day + he got listen post and listen to every transmission in my country + ++++++
> 
> Hear it from him self
> watch it from 2: 30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .

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## SOHEIL



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## SOHEIL

*Updated :




*

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## yavar

Iran documentary Shahid Tehrani Moghadam " Frontline " Part 5 مستند خط مقدم 





The documentaries "Frontline" made in several parts with the IRGC Aerospace Force commanders on their own presentations will be presented.
It is notable in these segments for the first time, a substantial content of the activities of brigadier general Shahid Tehrani Moghadam which leaded to the formation of artillery and missile force of Iran's Revolutionary Guards corps been expressed.

ایران قدرت چهارم موشکی جهان است





سردار دهقان: ایران قدرت چهارم موشکی جهان است/ عتبات متبرکه در عراق خط قرمز ماست​

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## yavar

* Iran Shahid Tehrani Moghadam launch of Short range Shahab 1 ballistic missile*






* Iran Shahid Tehrani Moghadam launch of Zelzal rocket *

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## rida.rwp

It is not been fired, I was expecting it to be fired.


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## yavar

Iran Shahid Tehrani Moghadam a look at industries and facilities and production missiles






IRGC builds Iran's first hypersonic wind tunnel to test missiles




Iran’s Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) has constructed the country’s first hypersonic wind tunnel for testing missiles and doing aerospace research.


“The IRGC has, for the first time in the country, built a hypersonic wind tunnel [operating] at the speed of more than eight Mach,” said IRGC Commander Major General Mohammad-Ali Jafari on Sunday. 

He made the remarks at the unveiling ceremony of the device at Tehran’s Imam Hussein (PBUH) University. 

The construction of the wind tunnel is a great achievement because it is used for testing missiles and aerospace research, he added. 

The IRGC commander stated that Iran’s previous wind tunnels operated at the speed of lower than one Mach and the country had to send its missile abroad for testing. 
In addition to reducing expenses, the new hypersonic tunnel enables the country to protect information pertaining to indigenously-designed and -built missiles, Jafari pointed out.

PressTV - IRGC builds Iran's first hypersonic wind tunnel to test missiles







Iran 100% domestically built supersonic wind tunnels in country 






Iran world’s fourth missile power: Defense Min.




*The Islamic Republic of Iran is the fourth missile power in the world, says the country’s defense minister.*

“Iran has an acceptable status among countries possessing missile capabilities, and stands after the United States, Russia and China,” Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan said in a televised interview with Al-Alam channel on Friday.

“In proportion to possible threats against the country, we have tried to increase the range of our missiles,” the Iranian minister added.
The country is currently striving to boost the accuracy of the missiles and make them radar-evading, he noted.

Over the past years, Iran has made important breakthroughs in its defense sector, attained self-sufficiency in producing important military equipment and systems and enhanced the preparedness of its forces by holding various drills.

PressTV - Iran world’s fourth missile power: Defense Min.

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## Luftwaffe

yavar said:


> in MRBM class no chance .none . they do nt have anything as good this as long range as this . themaxim range of Sejil 2 fully fuel is never been announced .



Stop Joking provide proof and complete information on you products before declaring that any other nation like Pak does not have it its arsenal. If max range is never announced than how do you put down another nations arsenal to be not good enough may be they too have kept secrets No? So stop fooling around.



fafarkhan said:


> no doubt ...they never do
> but buy little guess it must be over 3,500
> by the way i remeber you said once sejil is absoulote missile in iranian arsenal



Full doubts no information means doubts..provide info and compare it with products from across the border compare it in a chart than we can say anything until than its all lies.

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## yavar

Luftwaffe said:


> Stop Joking provide proof and complete information on you products before declaring that any other nation like Pak does not have it its arsenal. If max range is never announced than how do you put down another nations arsenal to be not good enough may be they too have kept secrets No? So stop fooling around.
> .


Hi brother please do not take notice what is say . i was only answering my friend question that all . just dismiss what i wrote

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## yavar

I only spotting this for some Iranian members so to all other members please just dismiss my post and do not take it seriously

FOR FOOLS 

"America's Missile Defense Agency»
latest report
Iran developed and an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) capable of reaching the United States by 2015.
Missile Defense Agency - U.S. Department of Defense



آژانس دفاع موشکی آمریکا: ایران تا پایان ۲۰۱۵ به موشک‌های قاره پیما دست می‌یابد
یک وبگاه آمریکایی مرتبط با امور موشکی ضمن ارزیابی توان موشکی برخی کشورها، از ایران و کره شمالی به عنوان تهدیدهای موشکی فراروی واشنگتن نام برد.​


به گزارش گروه بین‌الملل خبرگزاری فارس، وبگاه «آژانس دفاع موشکی آمریکا» در صفحه‌ای که به تهدیدهای فرآروی آمریکا و متحدانش پرداخته می‌شود، نوشت:درحال حاضر، فن‌آوری موشک‌های هوشمند قاره پیما در مقیاسی گسترده‌تر در خدمت کشورهای متخاصم با آمریکا و متحدانش قرار گرفته است.

در حالی‌که کشورهای متخاصم در حال توسعه و تبادل اطلاعات در این باره هستند، تهدید فزاینده در زمینه این‌که چنین فن‌آوری به دست کشورهایی که برای آمریکا تهدید امنیتی فرض می‌شود، وجود دارد.

بر اساس این گزارش، ایران در این بین از جمله کشورهایی است که قادر است تا قبل از سال ۲۰۱۵ به آزمایش و بهبود موشک‌های بین قاره‌ای که قابلیت رسیدن به آمریکا را دارند، دست یابد.

این کشور از سال ۲۰۰۸ به این سو چندین پرتاب موفقیت آمیز موشک‌های ماهواره‌بر 2 مرحله‌ای «سیمرغ» را داشته و همچنین نمونه‌ای دیگر از این موشک را رونمایی کرده است که می‌تواند زمینه‌ای برای بهبود فن‌آوری موشک‌های قاره پیما باشد.

در بخش دیگر این مطلب‌ آمده است:ایران از سال ۲۰۱۰ به این سو نیز موشک بالستیک برد کوتاه «قائم 1» و نسل چهارم موشک «فاتح ۱۱۰» را به نمایش گذاشته و مدعی تولید انبوه موشک‌های بالستیک ضد کشتی است. این کشور همچنین موشک‌های بالستیک «شهاب ۳» خود را ارتقاء بخشیده و برد آن را به طور موثری بهبود داده و همچنین مدعی است که موشک ۲ مرحله‌ای «سجیل» با سوخت جامد را تولید کرده است.

در بخش پایانی این تحلیل ضمن اشاره به تهدیدهای موشکی کره شمالی آمده است: نگرانی بیشتر در این زمینه تکرار شلیک و آزمایش موشک‌های ایران و کره شمالی است که حکایت از حملات موشکی بالستیک این 2 کشور در حجم انبوه دارد و ضروری است در طرح «بررسی قابلیت‌های دفاع موشکی آمریکا» موسوم به (Ballistic Missile Defense System ) لحاظ شود.​
آژانس دفاع موشکی آمریکا: ایران تا پایان ۲۰۱۵ به موشک‌های قاره پیما دست می‌یابد

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## SOHEIL



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## SOHEIL



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## ALPfollowerOF373

are there any record bro?

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## yavar

ALPfollowerOF373 said:


> are there any record bro?





yavar said:


> Iran Shahid Tehrani Moghadam a look at industries and facilities and production missiles



*Iran mass delivery of ballistic missiles to IRGC,s missile forces تحویل انبوه موشک‌ بالستیک*









*Iran mass delivered quantity of missile launchers to IRGC تحویل انبوه سکوی پرتاب موشک*

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## kollang

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 178114
> 
> 
> View attachment 178115


Soheil,give us some explanations about this.any thread from Military.Ir?


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## ALPfollowerOF373

i never seen the screenshoot soheil take about static rocket test before. thank you brother yavar and soheil.

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## SOHEIL

kollang said:


> Soheil,give us some explanations about this.any thread from Military.Ir?



A simple liquid fuel rocket engine during static tests in 80s or 90s !

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## yavar

Iran made first Katyusha rocket launcher MRL اولين پرتابگر موشك كاتيوشا ايران

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## yavar

*آمریکایی‌‌ها باید به قدرت موشکی ایران اعتراف کنند*​

به گزارش پایگاه اطلاع رسانی شبکه خبر، صدای روسیه نوشت: وزیر دفاع ایران اعلام کرد که کشور وی به ردیف چهارم در جهان در صنعت ساخت موشک صعود کرده است.
ولادیمیر ساژین تحلیلگر صدای روسیه، این موضوع را مورد تفسیر قرار داده است.
او می نویسد: در سیاست نظامی ایران، مهمترین جزء آن افزایش قدرت بالقوه نظامی است. در این رابطه ایرانی ها به موفقیت های قابل توجهی دست یافتند. برنامه های موشکی در اولویت قرار دارند که در مقایسه با دیگر جهات اکنون از اهمیت زیادی برخوردار است. پیداست تلاش های ایران همانا در این عرصه متمرکز شده اند.

صدای روسیه ادامه داد: «تا لحظه کنونی، موشک های تاکتیکی و ضربتی - تاکتیکی با عناوین مختلف و با برد شلیک از 80 تا 750 کیلومتر ساخته شده و در حال تولید و در حال انجام وظیفه هستند. از این موشک ها نمی توان به عنوان موشک های حامل کلاهک هسته ای استفاده کرد، اما آنها می توانند اهداف دریایی در خلیح فارس و عمان را نابود کنند.


*آمریکایی‌‌ها باید به قدرت موشکی ایران اعتراف کنند*​

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## fafarkhan

yavar said:


> yes is out of service .


yavar why they dont show talash missile in this mauvere ?

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## yavar

fafarkhan said:


> yavar why they dont show talash missile in this mauvere ?


Hi brother you mean the Talash air defence system ?


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## fafarkhan

yavar said:


> Hi brother you mean the Talash air defence system ?


yes my man 
i was expecting to see talash 3 or even bavar 373 
are they up and running behind seen

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## yavar

fafarkhan said:


> yes my man
> i was expecting to see talash 3 or even bavar 373
> are they up and running behind seen


We'll very. Thing is OK run Ok this is as much as I can say . they are not going to show nothing important in the mauvere


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## yavar

Iran documentary Shahid Tehrani Moghadam " Frontline " Part 6 مستند خط مقدم






Iran locomotive car wagon missile launcher train " TEL

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## raptor22

I have never seen a missile launched by this color ... what is this ..?









The SiLent crY said:


> *Pictures of Iranian Missile Silos :*




Silos could be detected very soon that's why we need mobile launcher , usually countries which their strategy is first strike go after silos unless mobile ones are the best even I heard Russia carries its missile on a train to make it hard to get detected and consequently get destroyed .





SOHEIL said:


> A simple liquid fuel rocket engine during static tests in 80s or 90s !


 
Is it in Iran ?

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## yavar

*  Iran Safir 1B SLV launch on Safir ******* satellite  *

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## The Last of us

yavar said:


> *  Iran Safir 1B SLV launch on Safir ******* satellite  *



Hi brother,

where is this video from? Is it recent?

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## yavar

The Last of us said:


> Hi brother,
> 
> where is this video from? Is it recent?


Hi brother sorry i wrote as much as i could . if I say more it will aid Iran enemies .


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## The Last of us

yavar said:


> Hi brother sorry i wrote as much as i could . if I say more it will aid Iran enemies .



Brother I am only asking what documentary that video is from. That's all. was it shown on TV?

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## yavar

The Last of us said:


> Brother I am only asking what documentary that video is from. That's all. was it shown on TV?


i took out of song which was released for program called

*"ثریا"*

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> Iran documentary Shahid Tehrani Moghadam " Frontline " Part 6 مستند خط مقدم
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran locomotive car wagon missile launcher train " TEL



USSR railway-based *RT-23* *Molodets* ICBM


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## Irfan Baloch

yavar said:


> *Iran Iranian T V documentary " 7 minutes to Israel "*


excellent work
such rants and such videos are a blessing for Israel. they give all Iran haters a chance to justify the crippling sanctions and Isolation. 
and it seems this mentality is also rubbing off on Pakistan where we got Jamat Islami and other fanatics that have brought us to the brink.

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## yavar

Iran Military - Iran Military's Photos | Facebook

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## raptor22

yavar said:


> Hi brother sorry i wrote as much as i could . if I say more it will aid Iran enemies .



Is it what you and @SOHEIL discussed in the other forum? I posted its picture in History of Iranian Missiles and Rockets but no one answered me ....  I am about to cry ....

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## yavar

raptor22 said:


> Is it what you and @SOHEIL discussed in the other forum? I posted its picture in History of Iranian Missiles and Rockets but no one answered me ....  I am about to cry ....


 what are you after ?? i do not get the question ??


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## raptor22

yavar said:


> what are you after ?? i do not get the question ??



شما و سهیل تو ایران میلیتاری در مورد یک پرتاب صحبت می کردید که سهیل می گفت رنگ موشکش قرمز بوده و 3 ثانیه زوتر پی لود رها شده و شکت خورده و شما گفتید نه موفقیت آمیز فکر کنم 22 مارچ هم بود زمانش ... میگم این تصویر همون پرتاب؟


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## yavar

raptor22 said:


> ... میگم این تصویر همون پرتاب؟


NO this one is nothing to do with red one . this one was brown one .


. Sohail was right on red color of the SLV but he was wrong in my point view it did not failed .

you can read my previous posts in link below .

Safir Tadbir launch failure >>> 20 march 2014

and if you have account in other IMF please inform people that i have been banned in IMF

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## raptor22

yavar said:


> NO this one is nothing to do with red one . this one was brown one .
> 
> 
> . Sohail was right on red color of the SLV but he was wrong in my point view it did not failed .
> 
> you can read my previous posts in link below .
> 
> Safir Tadbir launch failure >>> 20 march 2014
> 
> and if you have account in other IMF please inform people that i have been banned in IMF



So number of Iran's Satellites are more than what we know? and the brown one launch was successful too?


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## yavar

raptor22 said:


> So number of Iran's Satellites are more than what we know? and the brown one launch was successful too?


that was as much as i could say . if i say more in forum i be helping Iran enemies

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## raptor22

yavar said:


> that was as much as i could say . if i say more in forum i be helping Iran enemies



My bad but it's my last Q I hope it doesn't bother you ... surely it's up to you to answer me ... is there any reason behind those colors? 'cause most of times they are white ...

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## SOHEIL

raptor22 said:


> My bad but it's my last Q I hope it doesn't bother you ... surely it's up to you to answer me ... is there any reason behind those colors? 'cause most of times they are white ...



Red one launched a military payload ... As I heard !

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## rahi2357

raptor22 said:


> Silos could be detected very soon that's why we need mobile launcher , usually countries which their strategy is first strike go after silos unless mobile ones are the best even I heard Russia carries its missile on a train to make it hard to get detected and consequently get destroyed .


Road mobile launchers of SEJJIL and GHADR.










Iran already has mobile launchers but most of SHAHAB series ( 1 , 2 and first generation of 3 ) use silo bases.
i think it has 2 reasons. first , it doesn't worth it . second , in case of giving an immediate answer . and yes silo bases can easily be detected but being deployed nowhere near each other, makes too many targets to destroy .China has 20 silo base DF-5 ICBMs . it also maintained a number of fake silos to deceive enemy reconnaissance satellites .

Submarine launched ICBM . the safest way.





Road mobile launchers





Railroad launchers.





Air launch ICBM






And launch pad. the worst way ever . (R-7 ICBM )

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## SOHEIL

@yavar

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar


the way you draw Safir 1C it shows you now understand .
i am surprised and i must admit . you got the length spot on
one to you

the Safir 1 B+ need bit correction .

but it is sent only one message . the SLV program is live and it does not matter if it doesn't get published because we all know why . but it goes on

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> the way you draw Safir 1C it shows you now understand .
> i am surprised and i must admit . you got the length spot on
> one to you



Please repeat again in persian

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Please repeat again in persian


برادر شما در ترسیم
Safir 1C
به خال زدید به خصوص در طول .
ولی
Safir 1B+
یکم اصلاح نیاز دارد .
یک حیچ به نفع تو


there is Safir 1B+ you missed it

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> برادر شما در ترسیم
> Safir 1C
> به خال زدید به خصوص در طول .
> ولی
> Safir 1B+
> یکم اصلاح نیاز دارد .
> یک حیچ به نفع تو



Which part needs correction !?

So Safir-1C design is 100% accurate !?

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Which part needs correction !?


there is Safir 1B+ you missed it . 
between the Safir 1B and Safir 1C there's Safir 1B+
the red color you remember



SOHEIL said:


> So Safir-1C design is 100% accurate !?


100% correct

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> 100% correct



Base on my calculation , Safir-1C will be enough for 100 kg payload to 500 km circular LEO !

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Base on my calculation , Safir-1C will be enough for 100 kg payload to 500 km circular LEO !


as you know we can't talk about it . so is better you do not say much . just wait the slap is ready for Jokebijan . be patient and watch and enjoy

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> as you know we can't talk about it . so is better you do not say much . just wait the slap is ready for Jokebijan . be patient and watch and enjoy

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## SOHEIL



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## SOHEIL



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## SOHEIL

@yavar

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## SOHEIL



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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar


obsolete . out of service .
that is why you can see it now .


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## Arminkh

yavar said:


> obsolete . out of service .
> that is why you can see it now .


"Out of service" you mean it was functional once?

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## yavar

Arminkh said:


> "Out of service" you mean it was functional once?


What do you think ? It has to enter service first to be put out of service .

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## yavar

Iran first generation Shahab 3 ballistic missile first tests اولين آزمايش هاي موشك شهاب سه ايران

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS

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## yavar

* Iran Imam Khomeini space center and Safir * * SLV and ********** **SLV on launch pad on Israeli TV *

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


>



This picture belongs to another launch pad :

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> This picture belongs to another launch pad :
> 
> View attachment 185728



haahhahhhh  what can i say . people who need to know they understood


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> haahhahhhh  what i can say people who need to know they understood





Are you sure ?

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Are you sure ?


 do not worry soon you will my brother


Iran : Israel channel 2 TV on Imam Khomeini space center and ********** **SLV on launch pad

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> چقدر باید صبر کنیم ... اگه شکست بخوره ضایع میشیم



do not worry . it was originally fully tested ******* and it always worked before . so it should be ok

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> do not worry . it was originally fully tested ******* and it always worked before . so it should be ok



3 hours ... nothing !


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## SOHEIL

@yavar ...


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## Draco.IMF

Soheil, can you please in future add always descriptions to pictures you are posting, thanks...

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## Serpentine

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar ...



What's this? Is this in Iran?


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## SOHEIL

Serpentine said:


> What's this? Is this in Iran?



No ... but i have seen something like this 2 years ago !

This is cyclone ...



Draco.IMF said:


> Soheil, can you please in future add always descriptions to pictures you are posting, thanks...



I am sure we have a rocket very close to cyclone !

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar ...




same but with * less engine


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> same but with * less engine



4 or 5 ?

4 means simorgh !

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> 4 or 5 ?
> 
> 4 means simorgh !


i said as much as ii was able to say in forum


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> i said as much as ii was able to say in forum


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## yavar

Iran Shahid Haj Ahmad Kazemi talk about his trip with Shahid Shahid Tehrani Moghadam to Russia

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## yavar

*Saudi Arabia is buying ballistic missiles to counter Iran threat*





*Hugh Tomlinsoni n Riyadh and Tom Coghlan*

Last updated at 12:01AM, February 19 2015

Saudi Arabia is to expand its ballistic missile programme as it bolsters its deterrent to the threat from Iran in the covert arms race unfolding between the arch-enemies of the Gulf.

Riyadh has amassed surface-to- surface ballistic missiles and British-built cruise missiles as it seeks to counter Iran’s disputed nuclear programme.

The threat of a further escalation in the race to acquire more potent missile strike capabilities comes amid Saudi Arabia’s scepticism .



Saudi Arabia is buying ballistic missiles to counter Iran threat | The Times


ین روزنامه انگلیسی در انتهای خبر خود نوشت: تهدید رقابت تسلیحاتی در آینده داشتن قابلیت‌های قدرتمند حمله موشکی را می‌طلبد و در این زمینه گمانه زنی عربستان سعودی این است که مذاکرات 
هسته‌ای بین ایران و قدرت‌های جهانی به مرحله‌ای می‌رسد که دسترسی ایران به سلاح هسته‌ای را دور می سازد و در نتیجه ایران بیش از بیش به موشک‌های متعارف قاره پیمای خود متکی خواهد شد. 


تایمز انگلیس مدعی شد ریاض در پی خرید موشک‌های بالستیک برای مقابله با تهدید ایران
​


US accepts Shahab-3s in Iran’s missile arsenal, but not long-range ICBMs. Deep resentment in Jerusalem




DEBKAfile Special Report May 18, 2014, 9:16 AM (IDT)
]Two high-ranking US visitors to Israel, National Security Adviser Susan Rice and Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, publicly assured Israel this month that the Obama administration “would do what it must” to prevent Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon. Yet at the same time, the same administration informed Tehran that the demand to restrict Iran’s missile arsenal did not apply to the Shahab-3 ballistic missile, whose range of 2,100km covers any point in the Middle East, including Israel. This missile carries warheads weighing 760 kg, to 1.1 tons, which may also be nuclear.
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon challenged both Rice and Hagel on this omission. It came to light from Washington’s demand, in its direct dialogue with Tehran outside the framework of the six-power talks in Vienna, to place restrictions on Iran’s arsenal of ICBMs whose 4,000 km range places Europe and the United States at risk

The Obama administration said it was not demanding restrictions on the medium-range missiles capable “only” of striking Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf. But the comprehensive nuclear accord when it is finally negotiated must apply restrictions on the Sajjil1, Safir, Simorg (satellite launcher), Ashura1 and Ashura2 (other versions of the Sajjil class).
But this US “concession” did not placate Tehran. Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei burst out on May 11: “They expect us to limit our missile program while they constantly threaten Iran with military action. So this is a stupid idiotic expectation.” He thereupon ordered missile plants to shift to mass production.
Hagel was not just queried in Israel on this point, but also by Saudi Arabia and the Persian Persian Persian Persian Persian Persian Gulf Cooperation Council when he attended their defense ministers’ meeting in Jeddah Wednesday, May 14. Saudi Crown Prince Salman was in the chair.

When Hagel assured those present that their countries had nothing to fear from the rapprochement between Washington and Tehran, he was asked to fully explain President Obama’s policy on Iran’s missile arsenal. He replied that the plan was to establish a common anti-missile defense network for the region.

In Jerusalem, the defense secretary assured Netanyahu and Ya’alon that the close US-Israeli collaboration in maintaining one of the most sophisticated anti-missile shields in the world was sufficient security against Iranian Shahab-3 ballistic missiles.

A joint US-Israeli exercise against missile attack, Cobra Juniper, which takes place every two years, began Sunday, May 18, with the participation of 1,000 US servicemen.
However, neither Jerusalem nor the Gulf leaders accepted Washington’s explanations. Their disquiet was further exacerbated by the failure of latest round of nuclear negotiations with the six powers, which took place in Vienna Thursday, May 15, to bridge gaps between the sides and so prevented a start on the drafting of a final accord.

These widening gaps reflect the growing controversy over nuclear diplomacy in Tehran.

Saturday night, May 17, President Hassan Rouhani speaking to associates at a private meeting voiced his frustration with Khamenei: “That person thinks he knows everything and lays down policy without considering all the facts,” he complained.

Rouhani understands that tactical compromises will not bring about substantial relief from economic sanctions that at preying on his country. He is urging substantial concessions of Iran’s nuclear aspirations, enough to convince the world that his country is not after a nuclear weapon.

Khamenei and the Revolutionary Guards have rejected this approach. They are not open to real concessions either on their nuclear program or missile arsenal. This intransigence shows no sign of softening under the Obama administration’s willingness for compromise at the expense of Iran’s potential targets.
DEBKAfile, Political Analysis, Espionage, Terrorism, Security

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## yavar

Iranian General Salami We Tested Sinking Aircraft Carriers with Cruise and Ballistic

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## haman10

At the end of "Great prophet 9" war games in Persian gulf , Iran showed a short low quality clip of its new underwater launched cruise missile with boosters .

the missile is shown in min 1:10






The commander of IRGC refused to give any specifications about the missile .

@kollang @Serpentine @mohsen @SOHEIL @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @Ostad @jack 86000 @Dominance

WUT DAFOOK IS THAT ? HOLY SHYTE

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## yavar

Iran Underwater launched strategic cruise missile SLCM








haman10 said:


> At the end of "Great prophet 9" war games in Persian gulf , Iran showed a short low quality clip of its new underwater launched Ballistic missile .


what did i told you brother

for all FOOLS

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## Imran Khan

crazy humans arms race to kill humans as much as they can.

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## yavar

big question ?? for FOOLs what Submarine fires that type of ballistic missile ?? diesel battery submarine ?? ****** submarine ??

what warhead that missile carries ??

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## haman10

i still can't believe i saw that  But seriously WTF is this ? why no specifications ? Thats just a buzz kill .

@haviZsultan @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Echo_419 @Srinivas @SpArK 

Watch the video guys :O

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS 
second big question do Islamic Republic has the second time strike capability ?? can relate in terms of thermonuclear war ??

second big question do Islamic Republic has the second time strike capability ?? can Islamic Republic retaliate in the of thermonuclear war ??



haman10 said:


> i still can't believe i saw that  But seriously WTF is this ?


what did i told you brother haman10, ??

now you believe me ??

i been saying ttalking about this things and people call me liar and call me names

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## 500

5 seconds after the launch it starts to decline. Very strategic trajectory. I would even say interstellar missile.

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## yavar

Iran unveils new Under-water launched ballistic startegic missile SLBM


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## haman10

500 said:


> 5 seconds after the launch it starts to decline. Very strategic trajectory. I would even say interstellar missile.


@Serpentine please remove this pathetic butthurt leech . 

LMAO WTF ? butthurt so much ?  i get it : it's probably going to land on haifa

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## yavar

500 said:


> 5 seconds after the launch it starts to decline. Very strategic trajectory. I would even say interstellar missile.



you just wait what been cooked for you is special dish ,. by talking nonsense you not going to change facts on ground .
listen to Netanyadog speech in congress to understand better , 3rd of march



haman10 said:


> @Serpentine please remove this pathetic butthurt leech .
> 
> LMAO WTF ? butthurt so much ?  i get it : it's probably going to land on haifa



leave him let him have his fun they days are numbered .
letting troll

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## haman10

EDIT to the OP : its a Cruise missile with Boosters launched from a Submarine .

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS

who believe me
obsolete out of service . that why you can see it

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## 500

haman10 said:


> EDIT to the OP : its a Cruise missile with Boosters launched from a Submarine .


LOL, just 4 minutes after cursing me u admit I was right.

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## haman10

500 said:


> LOL, just 4 minutes after cursing me u admit I was right.


Wut ? 

STU and enjoy the roar of its engine BABE  

its really beautiful 

we'll unveil its Submarine soon , too  

I wonder how much butthurt you will be about Be'sat

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## Serpentine

500 said:


> 5 seconds after the launch it starts to decline. Very strategic trajectory. I would even say interstellar missile.



It doesn't 'decline' 500, it changes path, not that I expect anything else from you, but you could for once not act like a paid Hasbara. This is not a ballistic missile, it's a cruise missile so you can't expect a cruise missile launched from underwater to go directly in to sky.

Tomahawk underwater launch, it also 'declines' 3 seconds after launch. If only some people could stop making fools out of themselves.

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## yavar

ایران قابلیت ساخت موشک‌های قاره‌پیما را دارد







تکرار/ مدیر اطلاعات ملی آمریکا: ایران قابلیت ساخت موشک‌های قاره‌پیما را دارد/مذاکرات تأثیری بر مواضع منطقه‌ای تهران ندارد/ایران عامل هک کازینوی شلدون ادلسون بود​


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## haman10

Serpentine said:


> It doesn't 'decline' 500, it changes path, not that I expect anything else from you, but you could for once not act like a paid Hasbara. This is not a ballistic missile, it's a cruise missile so you can't expect a cruise missile launched from underwater to go directly in to sky.
> 
> Tomahawk underwater launch, it also 'declines' 3 seconds after launch. If only some people could stop making fools out of themselves.


lol Tomahawak looks like a teeny tiny mosquito compared to this babe

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## yavar

Haj Hasan Tehrani Moghadam his
to all brothers do praying Haj Hasan

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## SOHEIL

500 said:


> 5 seconds after the launch it starts to decline. Very strategic trajectory. I would even say interstellar missile.



Big boy !!!

You don't know the point for real !?



Imran Khan said:


> crazy humans arms race to kill humans as much as they can.










Bucephalus said:


> I thought you have spy satellite to detect these kind of tests...BTW does Israel has tthe capability to intercept cruise missiles?

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## farhan_9909

Now this is something i will call a big achievement.

Congrats

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## haman10

Screenshots :

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## monaspa

congrats !! 
p.s Is it land attack or Anti ship missile ?

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## yavar

Iran Underwater launched strategic cruise missile SLCM IRGCN ninth Great Prophet maneuver end phase

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## haman10

monaspa said:


> congrats !!
> p.s Is it land attack or Anti ship missile ?


We donno , all we know is this :

its a SLCM . period 

they said due to security concerns they are unable to show high quality videos and they cannot publish any specifications . which really sucks big time .

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## raptor22

O mother of goodness .. wth ...in comparison by Tom Hawk video posted by @Serpentine it looks bigger or I am wrong?

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## haman10

raptor22 said:


> it looks bigger or I am wrong?


maybe about 3 times bigger .

just compare the two videos . tomahawak is NOTHING compared to this beauty

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## The Great One

That is one smoky missile. Need a new booster perhaps. 
Anyway 
تبریک

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## yavar

*Iran Underwater launched strategic cruise missile SLCM IRGCN *

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## Dr. Strangelove

congrats

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## yavar



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## Azeri440

haman10 said:


> maybe about 3 times bigger .
> 
> just compare the two videos . tomahawak is NOTHING compared to this beauty



and which sub in Iranian inventory can even launch such a big missile?
its very clear its not vertical launched due to the angle.

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## haman10

Iran now thanks to allah joined the countries with* Second Strike Capability .
*
Our Subs can launch their missiles anywhere on the planet and Strike the mainland of our enemies in full-scale retaliation .

Congrats to all Muslims and Iranians around the world on this achievement 




Azeri440 said:


> and which sub in Iranian inventory can even launch sub a big missile?


lol . Bes'at submarine .



Azeri440 said:


> its very clear its not vertical launched due to the angle.


cool story

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## yavar

Azeri440 said:


> and which sub in Iranian inventory can even launch sub a big missile?
> its very clear its not vertical launched due to the angle.


hahahahahahahahahahahahahah


I am loving this .
the joke are still on state of denials

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## Azeri440

yavar said:


> hahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> 
> 
> I am loving this .
> the joke are still on state of denials



uhmm what?

I was legitimately asking which sub it is.



haman10 said:


> lol . Bes'at submarine .



is this it?

Besat-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it only has a displacement of 1,200 tons
strange how such a small sub has such a capacity.

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## haman10

The missile and its booster :









Azeri440 said:


> uhmm what?
> 
> I was legitimately asking which sub it is.



Besat-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## haman10

yavar said:


> brother i understand maybe you won't believe me .
> but i promise you we been for very long time countries with Second Strike Capability long time .
> you seen little of it because of nuclear talks .
> and MKO terrorist group of relviling new site and Netanyahu visit to send to kill the deal
> as more as it escalate we will see more
> 
> Iran regime's hysteric reaction to NCRI revelations of nuclear sites
> 
> John Boehner Defends Benjamin Netanyahu Speech


Some people like @Gold Eagle suggest its the "Meshkat" Cruise missile .

if its true , and it has a range of *2000KMs* , then WHAT IN THE FOOKING SHYTE .

Lets just attack US and get it over with   

JK 

The *Meshkat* (Persian: مشکات , _Lantern_) is a medium range cruise missile built by Iran.

Iranian media quoted Iran's deputy defense minister on September 9, 2012, that a medium range cruise missile will be revealed soon.[1] The missile can be fired from ground, air and *sea* and will have a range of 2000 km.

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## Echo_419

haman10 said:


> i still can't believe i saw that  But seriously WTF is this ? why no specifications ? Thats just a buzz kill .
> 
> @haviZsultan @Horus @DESERT FIGHTER @Echo_419 @Srinivas @SpArK
> 
> Watch the video guys :O



The missile looks good but is a little smoky,you need better cameras though

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## Cyrus the Great

Wish it got lunched from domestic made submarine. if not still VERY big achievement. It is a game changer.

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## raptor22

Is


yavar said:


> ایران قابلیت ساخت موشک‌های قاره‌پیما را دارد
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> تکرار/ مدیر اطلاعات ملی آمریکا: ایران قابلیت ساخت موشک‌های قاره‌پیما را دارد/مذاکرات تأثیری بر مواضع منطقه‌ای تهران ندارد/ایران عامل هک کازینوی شلدون ادلسون بود​


Is he (Adelson) who the fool who said we need to drop a bomb in middle of desert in Iran ?

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## haman10

Cyrus the Great said:


> Wish it got lunched from domestic made submarine. if not still VERY big achievement. It is a game changer.


Russian subs in service do NOT have any launch capability .

The Sub used for this launch is 100% Iranian 

so enjoy this even more

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## yavar

raptor22 said:


> Is
> 
> Is he (Adelson) who the fool who said we need to drop a bomb in middle of desert in Iran ?


NO brother .

He is head of all i mean all U.S intelligence agencies i mean all . CIA +DIA +safelite**** +++++++++++++++++ all . he know every thing but he cant let cat out of bag and tell the whole world that the game is over and U.S can not do sh@t .

because U.S and every president and establishment in US have given grantee to Israel and the Saudis and Turkey and NATO +++++++ that Iran will not and US will not allow Iran to be military supper power with full capabilities
U.S need to Show to Japan and South Korea they are still in charge of persian gulf and they can score full flow oil and Iran ca not do nothing .

every American president has promised the whole world Iran will be nothing


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*TEHRAN, 2011, July 09* -- Dr. Hamid Fazeli, head of Iran's Space Organization, in an interview with IRNA said the planned * Kavoshgar rocket * *is similar to the Safir rocket* in terms of structure, which will launch a biocapsule with live monkey into a suborbital altitude of 120 kilometers. The Kavoshgar rocket will be launched during the month of Mordad (July 23 to August 23) with a 285-kilogramme capsule.
*
TEHRAN, 2011, Aug. 22* -- The Iranian Space Agency (ISA) said Iran plans to launch a domestically-built satellite carrier Kavoshgar into space by theend of summer.
Kavoshgar's cargo, with a weight of 300 kg, contains a biological capsule in which a rhesus monkey will be placed. The rocket will be orbiting at an altitude of 120 to 130 kilometers above the Earth’s surface.

*TEHRAN, 2011, Oct. 03* -- Iran's plans to send a live monkey into space have been postponed indefinitely, the country's top space official said, quoted by the state television website. "One cannot give a set date for this project and as soon as our nation's scientists announce the readiness (of the project) it will be announced," said Hamid Fazeli, head of Iran's Space Organisation. He gave no reason for the postponement.
*
TEHRAN, 2012, January 04* -- Head of the Iranian Space Agency (ISA) says the country will launch a bio-capsule carrying a living creature into space within the next two months. Hamid Fazeli told reporters that the national project will be carried out by sending a monkey into space using a new bio-capsule.
According to Fazeli, ISA scientists are designing and manufacturing a new bio-capsule an example of which was launched into space last winter. Since it returned to Earth, we have been trying to upgrade it by “solving its problems and boosting its technical features,” he noted.

*A issue of the Jane's Defense Weekly (2012, November 21)* reports that Iran has tried a third orbital launch attempt of the year with a Safir rocket sometime between September 22 and October 25, but apparently the result was even worse than the last one: it exploded (?) on the launch pad.
Here we can see the preparations for the launch. But it is not a Safir launcher to see, probably is it a Kavoshgar *(Shahab-3*) on TEL. Possibly should it be the launch of a liquid fuel Kavoshgar. It was announced already one year ago and then postponedindefinitely.










*TEHRAN, 2013, Dec. 24* -- Director of Iran Aerospace Systems Research Center Mohammad Ebrahimi noted that the country has so far launched eight carriers into space and the last two had living creatures onboard.
He said more time will be needed to *develop a more complex carrier capable* of carrying human beings. 
Ebrahimi further stated that Iran intends to take slow but scientific and logical steps in the field of aerospace, adding that Iranian scientists plan to cross the threshold of bio-space research in their next stride. He added that planning and conceptual designing for the ninth Iranian-developed carrier is already underway.*
Note:Resumption of the Shahab-3 project with a new suitablereturn capsule ?
Quote: "The next step is to send a Kavoshgar to a height of 175 km with a payload of 500 kg" (or more)*

*
TEHRAN, 2014, May 04* -- The head of Iran’s Aerospace Research Institute has said the country will launch new generation of Kavoshgar rockets, jetting in a higher height comparing to the previous rockets.
Dr. Mohammad Ebrahimi told Mehr News that Iran’s Aerospace Research Institute has an orbital and suborbital project to send the living thing to the space; “first we will send the living thing to suborbital space and then with the advancement of the technology, it would be sent orbital space and beyond; our ultimate goal is sending the first man from Iran to the space,” he added.
Ebrahimi said that in current Iranian year the institute had plans to send the new generation of Kavoshgar to space and added that like the new Kavoshgar's, they are not cylindrical, but like world standard.
He held that to reach the capability to send a man to the space first we should send an object up to 150 to 200 km height suborbital space and then, “we should send this object to space to the orbit of 250 km around the earth, both plans need a carrier to provide the energy needed for the object’s movement.

*TEHRAN, 2014, May 19* -- Iran announced plans to launch another Kavoshgar rocket into space in the near future.
"A one-ton Kavoshgar will be sent to orbit at an altitude of 150 to 200 kilometers from the earth this year," Head of Iran’s Aerospace Research Institute Mohammad Ebrahimi, who also supervises Iran's project for sending man into space, said in an interview with the state-run Islamic republic news agency.
He said that the geometrical specifications of the Kavoshgar to be used in this launch will be similar to the previous ones, but the new Kavoshgar is cylindrospheric in form, that is a mixture of cylinder and sphere.
Ebrahimi explained that the rocket enjoys recovery and backup systems which make its launch more reliable and safe. He said once this Kavoshgar is sent to the orbit, the third step to send astronauts into suborbital space will be taken.

*TEHRAN, 2014, June 06* -- Mansour Kabganian, Chief Director of Iran's national project for building a spaceship, said that Iran is working on plans to build a spacecraft to send more living creatures into lower orbits in future.
The spacecraft's dimensions are 1.5 meters and it weighs 100kg (_meant is 1000kg_). The spacecraft will be sent "to a low (_sub_)orbit" with a Kavoshgar rocket.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Dimensions. Source ARI




 




Iran's one-man capsule (just presented)



 



Capsule details: ~1,000 kg; 1.85 x 2.30 m


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Kavoshgar-8 - only an intermediate step

TEHRAN, 2013, April 10 -- Head of Iran's Space Agency (ISA) Hamid Fazeli announced that his agency plans to send more living creatures into the space on the back of an Kavoshgar rocket which consumes liquid fuel. 
"The Kavoshgar rocket carrying living creatures will be launched this year using liquid fuel," Fazeli said. 
He referred to the previous dispatch of living creatures by Iran into the space, and said in the previous mission the carrier used solid fuel, but this time the Kavoshgar will use liquid fuel "and we hope that by using liquid fuel we can increase the speed of the launch to four to six Gs which is the best speed for launching living creatures".
TEHRAN, 2013, Sept. 07 -- Deputy Head of Iran's Space Agency (ISA) Hamid Fazeli announced that his agency plans to send a living creature into the space on board a liquid-fuel carrierwithin the next 45 days.TEHRAN, 2013, Dec. 08 -- The suborbital flight of a return capsule with a monkey aboard is now announced for the period of the next 10 days. The liquid-fuel launcher to carry the capsule to an altitude of 120 km.

TEHRAN, 2013, Dec. 10 -- Iran will launch Kavoshgar (Pazhuhesh) rocket, carrying a living creature into space next week, General Mehdi Farahi, deputy defense minister and head of Iran's Aerospace Organization, announced.
TEHRAN, 2013, Dec. 14 -- Iran says it has successfully sent a monkey into space for a second time. The liquid fueled rocket is called Kavoshgar-Pazhuhesh. The monkey is called "Fargam". After a sub-orbital trajectory to an altitude of 120 kilometers, approximately 15 minutes in duration return the monkey.
Meanwhile further details were published of the launch and return of the monkey. The surprise is that NOT a Shahab-3, but a Shahab-1 (Scud) was used as carrier rocket.






















*

*TEHRAN, 2007, Nov. 27* --- Iran has built a new longer-range ballistic missile named "Ashura" with a range of 2,000 kilometers , the defense minister Mostafa Mohammad Najjar said.*TEHRAN, 2008, Nov. 12* --- Iran test fired a new generation of ground-to-ground missile, the defence minister Mostafa Mohammad Najjar as said. "This is a two-stage missile carrying two engines with combined solid fuel," Najjar said, adding that the missile was named "Sejil".
*
TEHRAN, 2008, Nov. 18* --- Iran flew its new missile for the second time. Iran's defense Minister Mustafa Najjer was sufficiently satisfied to release impressive video footage showing what was clearly a previously unknown large multistage ballistic missile roaring off a mobile launcher. In a series of interviews after the test, Najjer stressed that the new "Ashura" missile is renamed "Sejil", and had a range of more then 2,000 kilometers and that it was a two-stage design, powered by composite solid-propellant rocket motors.
*
TEHRAN, 2009, May 20* --- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the country successfully launched an advanced surface-to-surface missile Sejil-2 with a range of about 2,000 km, the official IRNA news agency reported. The Sejil missiles use solid fuel and perform in two stages.
*
TEHRAN, 2009, Dec. 16* --- Iran has successfully tested an optimized version of the solid-fuel Sejil-2 missile. This new version of the Sejil-2 is faster during the powered flight portion of its trajectory and also during the re-entry phase. It is also harder to detect for anti-missile systems, as it is covered with anti-radar material. The new highly maneuverable missile is also more efficient as it requires less amount of time for prelaunch preparations. The engine and various fuels have been tested and the platform is now highly reliable.

Against first conjectures is this new large Iranian two-stage solid propellant missile "Sejil" *not based* on Chinese*Dong Feng* missiles DF-11 or DF-15 because the diameter is approximately 1.25 m and not 0.88 or 1.10 m. An affinity to the Chinese M-18 (Pakistani Shaheen-2) with a diameter of 1.40 m can not be recognized also. That means that the origin is unknown up to now. It is reported that this missile was developed and produced under the leadership of the Air and Space Organization Department of the Iranian Ministry of Defense.

I can not believe that Iran has developed the Sejil missile without technology transfer. For other missiles, such an technology transfer was always detectable.
The little-known Soviet 5Ya27 missile and the South African “Arniston” missile (Jericho-II in Israel) are the world's known two missiles with a diameter of about 1.3 m. The Arniston (Jericho-II) missile is not more in consideration, after a objection by Israeli experts.















A military truck carries a Sejil missile during the military parade Tehran on September 22, 2009


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## Major Shaitan Singh




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## Major Shaitan Singh

ressure gas boxes for first stage thrusters Second stage thrusters with four boxes 








Pipeline and covered thrusters


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Open boxes at the rear















On the Sejil missile are visible *four little boxes* at the base of both stages of the rocket. They contain probably high-pressure-gas or hydrazine. From these tanks the filling is supplied to thrusters in the middle part of the first stage and at low end of the second stage. The thrusters are activates to stabilize the flight of the rocket, as well as with the intent of avoidance of a potentially collision after separation from the first stage, before the second stage ignites
On the pictures below, is to see that the boxes are closed by plates. It is now clear that the *jet vanes* are welded on the plates.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Sejil missile in launch position



















* 
That's new

Recently there was a missile exhibition in Tehran and for the first time there are exact specifications for several of Iran's missiles such as the Ghadr-I (called the Ghadr-F in Iran) and the Sejil missiles. Also Iran displayed the specifications for the Qiam-1 and Shahab-2 as well. These have been accompanied by images. Also of interest is excellent close up images of the Sejil's engine exhaust area, showing it uses jet vanes.




*


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## Major Shaitan Singh




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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Qiam-1:*
Max. Range: 800 km
Total Weight: 6155 kg 
Length: 16 m (!? I guess it is 10.6 m )
Diameter: 88 cm
Warhead Weight: 747 kg
Propellant: Liquid Fuel
Flight Ceiling: 126 km
Flight Path: Ballistic

*Shahab-2:*

Max. Range: 500 km
Min. Range: 50 km
Total Weight: 6055 kg 
Length: 11 m 
Diameter: 88 cm
Warhead Weight: 747 kg
Propellant: Liquid Fuel
Flight Ceiling: 125 km
Flight Path: Ballistic








*Sejil:*
Max. Range: 2000 km

*Total Weight: 23623 kg *

*Length: 17.57 m 
Diameter: 1.25 m
Warhead Weight: 500 kg (!!!)
Propellant: Solid Fuel
Flight Time: 835 s*
Flight Path: Ballistic

*
Ghadr-F:*

Max. Range: 1948 km
Length: 15.86 m 
Propellant: Liquid Fuel
Guidance System: Inertial (imu)
Flight Path: Ballistic

One of interesting points of information of these posters is warhead weight of Sejil, I don't know how much these information are credible, but I think if warhead weight of Sejil is really 500 kg (less than Fateh-110 or Qiam-1 or Shahab-2), So max. range of two stage Sejil missile with 23 tons weight and 17.5 m length, is much more than 2000 km (the same range of liquid fuel 15.86 m Ghadr-F missile).

Qiam-1 missile:




Warhead of Qiam-1:


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Differences of jet vanes of Ghadr-F and Sejil missiles:














Ghadr-F, Sejil, Shahab-2 and Fateh-110 missiles:


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Scared Defence exhibition in Baharestan square in Tehran: 1- Persian Gulf missile.*

When Persian Gulf missile was introduced for the first time, a question was raised on it: Is it radar guided missile or optical guided?
First published images didn't show nose section of missile clearly. But when images of this missile on September 2011 parade was published, it was found that it uses an optical guidance system.
Like previous years, Scared Defence exhibition was held in September 2011 in Tehran. Now Images of nose section of displayed Persian Missile on this exhibition shows it uses an Infra Red seeker:






Seems these missiles have been "Fateh 110" missiles that have been converted to Persian Gulf (Khalij Fars) missiles, notice to the nose section:








And These are images of new launcher of "Persian Gulf" missile:


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## Major Shaitan Singh




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## yavar



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## yavar



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## 500

Serpentine said:


> It doesn't 'decline' 500, it changes path, not that I expect anything else from you, but you could for once not act like a paid Hasbara. This is not a ballistic missile, it's a cruise missile so you can't expect a cruise missile launched from underwater to go directly in to sky.
> 
> Tomahawk underwater launch, it also 'declines' 3 seconds after launch. If only some people could stop making fools out of themselves.


Tomahawk is neither ballistic nor strategic.

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## Serpentine

haman10 said:


> Russian subs in service do NOT have any launch capability .
> 
> The Sub used for this launch is 100% Iranian
> 
> so enjoy this even more


It's not necessarily a sub, it can be a submerged launch system which has more probability. We don't have any operational sub with ability to launch such cruise missile for now, but soon in the future.


500 said:


> Tomahawk is neither ballistic nor strategic.


I wonder how you can even post again. For Iran, yes a long range cruise missile is indeed a strategic weapon, also it's a cruise missile, I don't remember saying it was a ballistic missile.

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## Cheetah786

Wow Its a beauty. Congratulation Guys a job well done.

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## AUz

@gambit @Hyperion @Oscar 

Gents, your Professional insight required. After watching the video, what do you guys think?

A strategic breakthrough for Iranians? or another propaganda tactic of Mullahs? 

*OR *something in between whereby Iran has developed an impressive capability, but its importance and scale is being exaggerated greatly


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## 500

Serpentine said:


> I wonder how you can even post again. For Iran, yes a long range cruise missile is indeed a strategic weapon, also it's a cruise missile, I don't remember saying it was a ballistic missile.


1) The initial claim was that its strategic ballistic missile.
2) I loled.
3) Iran stronk team attacked me.
4) Now u guys admit its NOT ballistic and corrected the post. But still insist its "strategic", although its not.

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## Surenas

500 said:


> 4) Now u guys admit its NOT ballistic and corrected the post. But still insist its "strategic", although its not.



It could very well be strategic in the PG.

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## Serpentine

500 said:


> 1) The initial claim was that its strategic ballistic missile.
> 2) I loled.
> 3) Iran stronk team attacked me.
> 4) Now u guys admit its NOT ballistic and corrected the post. But still insist its "strategic", although its not.


You are basically out of arguments and are here only to save face. No it's not a ballistic missile and a member claiming that doesn't make it Iran's stance. Also, it means that's a much more advanced missiles compared to ballistic ones, I don't need to remind you that ballistic missiles have a much more simple subsystems compared to cruise missiles.

And it is an strategic weapon, a long rang cruise missile with underwater launch capability gives Iran second strike capability, non-nuclear of course, for now.

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## 500

Serpentine said:


> You are basically out of arguments and are here only to save face. No it's not a ballistic missile and a member claiming that doesn't make it Iran's stance.


So your friends made a mistake, but I am saving face. Great logic. 



> Also, it means that's a much more advanced missiles compared to ballistic ones, I don't need to remind you that ballistic missiles have a much more simple subsystems compared to cruise missiles.


 Go compare the price of V-1 and V-2 rockets. You will be very surprised.



> And it is an strategic weapon, a long rang cruise missile with underwater launch capability gives Iran second strike capability, non-nuclear of course, for now.


Dozens of countries have torpedo launched missiles. No one except Iran screams its "strategic".

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## Oldman1

haman10 said:


> lol Tomahawak looks like a teeny tiny mosquito compared to this babe



How about you post pics of its actual size before you claim its bigger than the Tomahawk. Doubt its bigger than the Snark.


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## Surenas

500 said:


> Dozens of countries have submarine launched missiles. No one except Iran screams its "strategic".



Sometimes I wonder how the hell they've made you an analyst on this forum. You do realize that only a couple countries have indigenously-produced SLCMs, right? Also, strategic is a subjective term that depends on the context in which its used. Considering the fact that a clear majority of the countries in world do not face the world's strongest navies in their backyard, who occasionally threaten to launch attacks on their military infrastructure, a successfully-launched SLCM would most definitely influence the strategic balance in the Persian Gulf.

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## 500

Surenas said:


> Sometimes I wonder how the hell they've made you an analyst on this forum. You do realize that only a couple countries have indigenously-produced SLCMs, right? Also, strategic is a subjective term that depends on the context in which its used. Considering the fact that a clear majority of the countries in world do not face the world's strongest navies in their backyard, who occasionally threaten to launch attacks on their military infrastructure, a successfully-launched SLCM would most definitely influence the strategic balance in the Persian Gulf.


Last time I checked best Iranian anti ship missile was copy of C802 and best Iranian anti tank missile was copy of Kornet. So what makes u think that Iran has endogenously produced SLCM? C802 has submarine launched versions too, so its very possible thats what was in the video.

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## mohsen

submarine or seabed launched missile. 
Now they have to have a look at between their legs too.

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## yavar

500 said:


> Last time I checked best Iranian anti ship missile was copy of C802 o.


*Iran the Secret History Noor Cruise Missile *






The Secret History of Iran Noor cruise missile and how Iran manage to build it by itself and upgrade it and how Chinese cheated Iran by cancelling the joint project one sided and eating Iran money . the ex CIA officer explain how Iran manage to finish the project and bypass sanction and make 5 times better cruise missile called Noor which has much more capabilities than the Chinese type



more nonesense
you do not even know the history and many fool like you think China is Iran friend or Iranians look at China as friend

do you know how much money China owe us money which is NOT paying only on oil payment ?? can you tell us how many times China eated Iran money in past 36 years ??

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## Surenas

500 said:


> Last time I checked best Iranian anti ship missile was copy of C802 and best Iranian anti tank missile was copy of Kornet. So what makes u think that Iran has endogenously produced SLCM? C802 has submarine launched versions too, so its very possible thats what was in the video.



You suggest China leased one of their subs to Iran as well to fire this SLCM?

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## Gold Eagle

500 said:


> Last time I checked best Iranian anti ship missile was copy of C802 and best Iranian anti tank missile was copy of Kornet. So what makes u think that Iran has endogenously produced SLCM? C802 has submarine launched versions too, so its very possible thats what was in the video.


I wonder why you keep embarrassing yourself over and over! How the hell you found out that this might be Noor ASCM?! Haven't you ever seen this missile?! The only similarities i see is that both of them are cruise missiles! 
You can stay silent rather than making yourself look like an idiot.

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## rahi2357

How about this ?

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## yavar

rahi2357 said:


> How about this ?
> View attachment 197254


yeh ahahahhahahahah

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## Surenas

Anyone an idea why they haven't leased any information about the missile and its platform? I mean, Iran usually unveils important weapon systems with a lot fanfare. Now, not even its name has been released.

I'll guess in contrast to most other unveilings, Iran finds the system to be such important that operational obscurity is preferred over transparency.

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## yavar



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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> yeh ahahahhahahahah

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## 500

Surenas said:


> You suggest China leased one of their subs to Iran as well to fire this SLCM?


Submarine launched C802 can be launched from standard 533 mm torpedo tubes.

Anyhow since they dont show any footage beyond 5 seconds there is nothing to discuss here at all.

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## 500

haman10 said:


> Just imagine the stand-off and second-strike capability this babe gives us
> 
> 2000 kilometers away from US , Zio mainland and still able to strike the living daylights outta dem beyatches
> 
> 
> thats why you are here without taking a break since the opening of this thread hasabra paid warrior ?
> 
> yeah sure its a Noor missile . ok , now GTFO .
> 
> Even one more post by you further proves my point . But seriously : Do you get paid by hour ? i mean you are here 24/7 and i just wonder how much you get paid by the regime ?
> 
> View attachment 197262
> 
> 
> Its a C-802 photoshopped to be getting outta water , now STFU and just leave to save yourself from more embarrassment
> 
> View attachment 197263


I made a short comment that this missile is nether ballistic nor strategic. And I was right.

Since then I get tons of personal insults and attacks by iran stronk team. So who is butthurt here?

But u are right, I should not react to these attacks. Have a nice day.

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 197261


no that one is for big Mama 

like this 
*Russia 1991 SLBM test *

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## Hack-Hook

500 said:


> Submarine launched C802 can be launched from standard 533 mm torpedo tubes.
> 
> Anyhow since they dont show any footage beyond 5 seconds there is nothing to discuss here at all.


not all 533m torpedo tube can launch missiles.
Kilo class subs or consist of two group Project 877 and Project 636 . Project 636 can launch missile and project 877 can't .
and both of them have 6x533mm torpedo tube

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## Draco.IMF

Is this normal for a missile to burn such extremeely?
I mean the whole missile is "under fire" and the camera abrupt stopped following of the flight path
So much fire and smoke, abrupt ending of filming of the flight path, short clip.
I mean they could film the trajectory of the missile bit longer.

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## Oublious

Draco.IMF said:


> Is this normal for a missile to burn such extremeely?
> I mean the whole missile is "under fire" and the camera abrupt stopped following of the flight path
> So much fire and smoke, abrupt ending of filming of the flight path, short clip.
> I mean they could film the trajectory of the missile bit longer.




typical mullah propaganda....<<

Always bad quality camera to record such important events.......

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## SOHEIL

Oublious said:


> typical mullah propaganda....<<
> 
> Always bad quality camera to record such important events.......

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## haman10

SOHEIL said:


>


The video has been extremely obnoxious for them . leave it there 

SECOND STRIKE CAPABILITY BABY 

Khkhk , Toff

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## Kasra-Prophecy

SOHEIL said:


>


oh turkish friends again!..

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## The SC

haman10 said:


> Iran now thanks to allah joined the countries with* Second Strike Capability .
> *
> Our Subs can launch their missiles anywhere on the planet and Strike the mainland of our enemies in full-scale retaliation .
> 
> Congrats to all Muslims and Iranians around the world on this achievement
> 
> 
> 
> lol . Bes'at submarine .
> 
> 
> cool story



Iranian generals and admirals were saying for quite some time now that all Iranian submarines will be capable of launching missiles and torpedos, even Ghadir. This was made public when they started talking about Fateh and Besa't production. I was not that surprised when I saw the launch in this manoeuver.

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## SOHEIL

haman10 said:


> Khkhk , Toff

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## kollang

JEskandari said:


> not all 533m torpedo tube can launch missiles.
> Kilo class subs or consist of two group Project 877 and Project 636 . Project 636 can launch missile and project 877 can't .
> and both of them have 6x533mm torpedo tube


Well, I think our kilo class submarines could be upgraded to project 877.besat class submarines will have also cruise missile capability.The question is whether IRGC would provide this system to IRIN, since kilo and besat are in service with IRIN.why did t IRGC made this weapon in the first place?

@500 So how much did you earned, today?

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## mohsen

guys, after 5 pages still none of you have managed to put a video with a decent quality, really shameful.
should I create a guide for capturing and editing your videos?


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## 500

JEskandari said:


> not all 533m torpedo tube can launch missiles.
> Kilo class subs or consist of two group Project 877 and Project 636 . Project 636 can launch missile and project 877 can't .
> and both of them have 6x533mm torpedo tube


Sorry, but it can:

http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/fileadmin/editor/tth_877.pdf

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## Malik Alashter

So, how lethal this missile is and how strategic to Iran?.
No doubt launching a missile from a sub is a great deal something not all big nations have it.

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## haman10

mohsen said:


> guys, after 5 pages still none of you have managed to put a video with a decent quality, really shameful.
> should I create a guide for capturing and editing your videos?


Why didn't you do it yourself ? 



Malik Alashter said:


> So, how lethal this missile is and how strategic to Iran?.
> No doubt launching a missile from a sub is a great deal something not all big nations have it.


Bro , this missile give iran Second Strike Capability .

Meaning anytime iran is attacked , we can launch a counter-attack on the aggressor almost immediately after the strike .

it probably has a 2000km range . so iranian Subs can standoff US coast (For example) and launch the missile from there .

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## waz

Nice Iranian brothers! Well done. 

I do like SLCM's.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Today, I am officially becoming a military fanboy of Iran.

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## SOHEIL



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## ChineseTiger1986

SOHEIL said:


>



Iran is much better of making its own weapons.

To make the money by selling the weapons to Iran is definitely a wrong idea.

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## Dominance

Any ideas?

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## ChineseTiger1986

haman10 said:


> Why didn't you do it yourself ?
> 
> 
> Bro , this missile give iran Second Strike Capability .
> 
> Meaning anytime iran is attacked , we can launch a counter-attack on the aggressor almost immediately after the strike .
> 
> it probably has a 2000km range . so iranian Subs can standoff US coast (For example) and launch the missile from there .



I think the SLBM could provide an even longer range counter attack.

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## Militant Atheist

ISIS has better cameras and cinematography skills than IRI.

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## Wisdom

yavar said:


>


Hey brother at Iran Military forum someone posted your video and said it was from you, and it's the highest 
Ranked video with 14 points. Thanks for still keeping us informed

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## haman10

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Today, I am officially becoming a military fanboy of Iran.


Tnx bro 



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think the SLBM could provide an even longer range counter attack.


Well , yes . Thats the case for China for example . 

but for iran , the Meshkat missile (assuming this one is meshkat) , has only a range of 2000km .

Maybe in future we can expand that too 


Militant Atheist said:


> ISIS has better cameras and cinematography skills than IRI.


That is sooooo true  i mean i don't like illogical criticism but seriously , this one was right on target .

Its a shame . the Video about SLCM might be low quality intentionally , but what about the other ones ?

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## ResurgentIran

Holy smokes!

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## haman10

ResurgentIran said:


> Holy smokes!


LOL .

That doesn't begin to cover it 

Iran has invested A LOT of money on its naval capabilities and its finally paying off .

Some SLCMs on board Be'sat Subs and we've got our First steps towards a Blue-water navy with their Second Strike Capability .

Gosh i can't stop saying it : Second Strike Capability Second Strike Capability Second Strike Capability Second Strike Capability Second Strike Capability

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## rahi2357

Guys I still don't get it . Right one is a submarine launched ICBM . look at the smokes and compare it to the recent test Let's say be'sat , fateh and kilo submarines have the capability to launch missiles but this missile looks too big to be launched from them . I think torpedo tubes are smaller to be able to launch this one ( with side by side boosters )

Right : a submarine launched ICBM / Left : recent Slcm test










ResurgentIran said:


> Holy smokes!









Dominance said:


> Any ideas?


That's probably another camera . ( Not to be broadcast )

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## haman10

rahi2357 said:


> Guys I still don't get it . Right one is a submarine launched ICBM . look at the smokes and compare it to the recent test Let's say be'sat , fateh and kilo submarines have the capability to launch missiles but this missile looks too big to be launched from them . I think torpedo tubes are smaller to be able to launch this one ( with side by side boosters )
> 
> Right : a submarine launched ICBM / Left : recent Slcm test


Dadashi , Firstly , Boosters produce enormous amount of thrust for a short period of time . Hence , the huge smoke trail . 

The smoke behind the missile can NOT in anyway suggest anything about missile's size . As you said , the amount of smoke is too freaking HUGE . Our missile is most probably bigger than Tomahawak SLCM , but *probably* not as big as Trident SLBM.

Be'sat is a big Sub . remember that they can also have submarines that are yet to be even introduced to the media . *Fateh joined the IRIN without any ceremony and under complete silence . *the same can be done about other Subs .

Also take External tubes into account . they can easily install external tubes on smaller subs like Fateh .






They increase the sonar signature but still , a good proposal for subs like Fateh . i think Be'sat can accommodate Internal tubes like a piece of cake .



rahi2357 said:


> That's probably another camera


Yeah , looks like a camera to me

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## kaku1

haman10 said:


> That is sooooo true  i mean i don't like illogical criticism but seriously , this one was right on target .
> 
> Its a shame . the Video about SLCM might be low quality intentionally , but what about the other ones ?



I think you dont know about video quality of ISRO and DRDO, there are no intentions. Still, video quality remain worst.

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## yavar

Militant Atheist said:


> ISIS has better cameras and cinematography skills than IRI.


NO you wrong .
trust me we have much much better cameras .
but there is reason they showed low quality .
why do you think they showed only 7 second of the old video ??
cant they show the full video

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## PeeD

Some points:

Its possible that this is indeed a SLBM considering following facts:

1. It does not use a Tomahawk, Noor or supposedly Meshkat like mini trubofan/turbojet, for this the smoke is too heavy and one solid fuel booster would be sufficient instead of the two used.

2. I have never seen a video of the Soviet Granit missile being launched but even a Granit like missile would not produce that amount of smoke, this is not typical for a ram jet engine. However there is the possibility that missiles like the Granit use a special higher power ram jet propulsion in their acceleration phase. If anyone finds a video of a submarine launch of the Granit it would be great.

3. As it almost certainly employs a high thrust solid fuel engine beside its booster everything is hinting to a SLBM. There is no heavy AshM known to me that uses a soild fuel engine as this would drastically reduce its long range capability. It would be fast Mach 3-4+ at sea level but with a poor range. 
This missile is big, if it would be smaller, such a solid fuel AshM would make sense as a shortrange supersonic AshM.

4. Because its certainly a big missile and most likely not a torpedo tube launched one, it needs a specialized launch platform

5. For testing proposes it is possible that a very depressed trajectory was flown, i.e to test its max-q performance. We have seen depressed trajectory in other ballistic missiles. Under operational conditions its not efficient in regards of range but depressed trajectories can be used to reduce the warning time, because the enemies radars will not be able to track it at long range as in ballistic trajectories.


This could be a very important development for Iran's deterrence capability.

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## masud

rahi2357 said:


> How about this ?
> View attachment 197254


i realy like that system bro...........

congrats iran............

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## Hack-Hook

kollang said:


> Well, I think our kilo class submarines could be upgraded to project 877.besat class submarines will have also cruise missile capability.The question is whether IRGC would provide this system to IRIN, since kilo and besat are in service with IRIN.why did t IRGC made this weapon in the first place?
> 
> @500 So how much did you earned, today?


Our kilo is project 877ekm to s begin with . But yes there is an upgrade for project 877 that make it capable of firing missile.



500 said:


> Sorry, but it can:
> 
> http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/fileadmin/editor/tth_877.pdf


Only some upgraded export model can fire missile our subs are not export model but surplus of Russian navy and are not capable of firing the missile.

By the way we ourselves overhauled and upgraded 2 of the kilo subs but I don't knew if we includex firing missile upgrade in the system or no .

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## Draco.IMF

*FACT IS -> *We know absolutely nothing *yet!*
We have to *wait*.
Till now only* speculations, *nothing more.

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## SOHEIL

rpk-7

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## haman10

^^ these are not pics of the iranian missile . Soheil forgot to mention that .

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## raptor22

What are those missiles?

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## SOHEIL

raptor22 said:


> What are those missiles?



rpk-7

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## PeeD

The fire at the nose right after it exits the water is a hint that a ram-jet propulsion is used. It's not necessary to have a top protection with ordinary ballistic missiles or turbojet/-fan cruise missiles.

Its also a heavy missile unlike the RPK-7.
Either a Granit like ram-jet cruise missile or a SLBM imo.

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## Dominance

PeeD said:


> The fire at the nose right after it exits the water is a hint that a* ram-jet propulsion* is used. It's not necessary to have a top protection with ordinary ballistic missiles or turbojet/-fan cruise missiles.
> 
> Its also a heavy missile unlike the RPK-7.
> Either a *Granit like ram-jet cruise missile* or a SLBM imo.








P-700 Granit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Ramjet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Oublious

SOHEIL said:


> rpk-7




Do you have any idea how big that torpedo tube have to be? If that is the missile then it is not fired from a sub.


----------



## ResurgentIran

xenon54 said:


> Yeah whatever...
> 
> 
> Dont tell me you belive in those things posted here by your fellows, most recent one is a perfet exsample, do you really believe its that easy to bomb a American Carrier group and take over it in Pirates of the Caribbean fashion?
> Now tell me this isnt Mullah propaganda.
> 
> At least we post production lines, specs and hd close up pictures of our ''propaganda'' and dont come up with imaginary weapons, and most important is our members can talk about feasibility of projects and critisize without going in ''Turkey strong, best country, hurr durr'' talks.



As the thread got closed down, I will answer here.



> Dont tell me you belive in those things posted here by your fellows, most recent one is a perfet exsample, do you really believe its that easy to bomb a American Carrier group and take over it in Pirates of the Caribbean fashion?
> Now tell me this isnt Mullah propaganda.



What does that have to do with anything? lol but whatever, I'll answer it anyway.
I never said it was easy (because I was not even talking about it in the first place)  
Btw, Iran being capable to sink an American aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf is not something we made up.
Its been concluded already in the US own war game called the "millenium challenge 2002". I suggest you read it.
There is nothing propaganda about a war game or maneuvers being conducted in your own backyard. The US does those war games all the time, but when Iran does it everyone reverts back to "mullah propaganda" as if they are the only words in the vocabulary and as if Iran conducting a war game in its own immediate neighborhood should be treated differently than any other state. 
I guess this level of thinking is the result of years of Erdoganistani propaganda. See what I did there?

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## xenon54 out

ResurgentIran said:


> I guess this level of thinking is the result of years of Erdoganistani propaganda. See what I did there?


Ok lets leave it if you say so, im not going to drag this further here or i might become a troll.

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## Dominance

This might be an informative article for Persian speakers:
خبرگزاری بین المللی تسنیم - فتح عرصه جدید موشکی/ "موشک‌ زیرآبی سپاه" را بیشتر بشناسید + تصاویر

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## ResurgentIran

xenon54 said:


> Ok lets leave it if you say so, im not going to drag this further here or i might become a troll.



I dont think of you as a troll.

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## xenon54 out

ResurgentIran said:


> I dont think of you as a troll.


Thank you.

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## monaspa

Oublious said:


> Do you have any idea how big that torpedo tube have to be? If that is the missile then it is not fired from a sub.


first of all, that is Russian missile and somehow by magic it's torpedo tube launched.

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## Shahryar Hedayati

*Fine-quality video of missile launch*

تصاویر باکیفیت از آزمایش جدیدترین سلاح راهبردی سپاه


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## Oublious

monaspa said:


> first of all, that is Russian missile and somehow by magic it's torpedo tube launched.




Of course, but still have you any idea how big that is?

a subharpoon missile..

SVSM Gallery :: UGM-84 Harpoon Container, Bowfin Park, Pearl Harbor, HI, by Vladimir Yakubov :: IMGP6759











The missile must be fided to in a submarine. If you people say thats possible then i don't now anymore. That second missile is about 3 meter long and must fitted in a canister.... See the differences with a harpoon missile.








Maybe a vertical launch possible, not with what iran have.


----------



## monaspa

Oublious said:


> Of course, but still have you any idea how big that is?
> 
> a subharpoon missile..
> 
> SVSM Gallery :: UGM-84 Harpoon Container, Bowfin Park, Pearl Harbor, HI, by Vladimir Yakubov :: IMGP6759
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The missile must be fided to in a submarine. If you people say thats possible then i don't now anymore. That second missile is about 3 meter long and must fitted in a canister.... See the differences with a harpoon missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a vertical launch possible, not with what iran have.


first of all, do you work in IRGC/Iran army or can you tell us how can you be so sure about iran's capabilities ? 
and second for god's sake, RPK-7 is Torpedo tube launched missile (650MM tubes to be exact) 
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/ss-n-16.htm
and again, this has nothing to do with cruise missile launched by IRGC navy.

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## B@KH

Congratulations to Powerful Islamic IRAN.

Good message to both the Friends and the Enemies of IRAN.

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## Draco.IMF

*RPK-6 (SS-N-16) Launch*






Lot of fire & smoke, like Iranian missile..

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## RAMPAGE

SLCM with strap-on boosters? 

BTW Congrats.

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## Mirzah

Congrats Iran, great missile. Zionists won't be happy seeing this

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## Oublious

Draco.IMF said:


> *RPK-6 (SS-N-16) Launch*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lot of fire & smoke, like Iranian missile..




This is a test of European navy not russian and is several years old. Iranian members quoted this video.



monaspa said:


> first of all, do you work in IRGC/Iran army or can you tell us how can you be so sure about iran's capabilities ?
> and second for god's sake, RPK-7 is Torpedo tube launched missile (650MM tubes to be exact)
> http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/ss-n-16.htm
> and again, this has nothing to do with cruise missile launched by IRGC navy.




Do you work for the iranian navy? Ther is no image of the missile and ther are a lot of big missiles aded to the topic. For a sub system is it to big, you don't have to be a proffesor if you look to the missiles showed.

Now for the missile you linked, so this is not iranian made missile. A max range 100 km and is russian. Put it like this, iran buy the damn missile and installed to his subs...

again making a big show we made our own missiles....


----------



## monaspa

Oublious said:


> This is a test of European navy not russian and is several years old. Iranian members quoted this video.


Missile is _Водопад-НК and if fired from Адмирал Чабаненко_ (Адмирал Чабаненко (большой противолодочный корабль) — Википедия 
btw Vodopad (RPK 6) can be fired from 533mm torpedo tubes but RPK 7 needs 650mm tubes.

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## scythian500

500 said:


> So your friends made a mistake, but I am saving face. Great logic.
> 
> 
> Go compare the price of V-1 and V-2 rockets. You will be very surprised.
> 
> 
> Dozens of countries have torpedo launched missiles. No one except Iran screams its "strategic".


both ballistic and cruises are state of the art when it comes to precise measures needed to be taken for them to act properly.

A submerged launching platform, whether be a modified (activated) missile launch capability KILO CLASS or a new Iranian submarine will be STRATEGIC for Iran when it can travel thousands of miles in oceans and wait for instructions, it is simply a Second Strike Capability and it is even more strategic if it is Nuclear and with a range of thousands of KMs as if it is Meshkat... Maybe in future and due to all Nuke capable neighbors around us, Iran will be impelled to make Nuclear Warheads just to defend itself from demons. Iran does have its tech and infra to make at least 100 nukes in next 10 years... Does n,t it? OH..but your comedian, retarded prime youngster, bibi, has been declaring Iran is 6 months away from Nuclear Bombs 15 years ago and still repeating it everyday... sometimes with a painting!!!! sometimes in a food conference in Angola...all the time in US congress!!! Either you have to trust your NUMBER ONE man in charge and his everyday promises or believe Claims that Iran is not that sophisticated to build Nuke Missiles!!!

Btw, to all Iranian fellas... No clear information about this weapon is out. The commander himself said, they can not disclose any more info about it as it is one of Iran's strategic weapons when the time has come. This means, we do not know what it is... please stop naive speculations... It must be something pragmatic and harmful, otherwise, IRCG would not have claim in day light that it is strategic.

The story of you 500 Israeli kid is the one that, people used to mock Germany and Japan and later, china and India for not being about to pose any threats after W W II. They mocked Japan every day until every technology in their homes became Made in Japan!!!

If you ask me about Israelis being masters of turning urine and other waste water and inject it back into your drinking water tabs, I definitely acknowledge your capability as its direct results are shining as talent and the power to conclude in yourself.

Israel is good, Iran is bad... bad bad bad.... everything Iran is making is rubbish and a show from Mullahs... whatever Israel assembles (sorry I meant installs...sorrry I meant putting together) is not only good but perfect...let,s wait and see if Iran makes the new Japan or on the contrary a new Israeli...

Dudes, we do not know that much about this new weapon... if they say it is strategic, then so be it... it must be...
Do you really believe Iranian commanders are kids? they are well experienced soldiers...they know they can not bluff by saying they have many more weapons for the day of battle while they don,t! Iran's adversaries are not kids too... so, I trust commanders when they say, it is very unique...it is strategic and it is a big part of our surprise in doomsday...

I have heard stuff from people in Iran that if even half of it is true and operational, then not only Israel but also NATO can not do a thing to Iran... they may harm Iran hard..but Iran will harm them back hard too... Let,s hope... no war is out there so we both keep playing this amusing game or mocking one another while our commanders laugh at us for our analysis!!

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## Oublious

The topic is iran fired his own Submarine Launched Cruise Missile and not anti ship missile.

SO what the fak are we talking about?


another propaganda offff Iroonnnnn...


thank youuuuuu.


----------



## monaspa

Oublious said:


> This is a test of European navy not russian and is several years old. Iranian members quoted this video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you work for the iranian navy? Ther is no image of the missile and ther are a lot of big missiles aded to the topic. For a sub system is it to big, you don't have to be a proffesor if you look to the missiles showed.
> 
> Now for the missile you linked, so this is not iranian made missile. A max range 100 km and is russian. Put it like this, iran buy the damn missile and installed to his subs...
> 
> again making a big show we made our own missiles....


1)I never said RPK-6/7 was Iranian made. 
2)You said it was "too big for submarine" 
3) both RPK-6 and RPK-7 can be fired from submarines so they aren't too big. 
have a nice day.

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## haman10

@Serpentine , time to issue some infractions here buddy .

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## Oublious

monaspa said:


> 1)I never said RPK-6/7 was Iranian made.
> 2)You said it was "too big for submarine"
> 3) both RPK-6 and RPK-7 can be fired from submarines so they aren't too big.
> have a nice day.




1 you not but the iranian members well.
2 you stil dont get it, the missiles they added(picture of several meter long) are to big for submarine. 
3 yes of course is a russian sub with missile, not iran.

thank you


----------



## monaspa

sorry for another off topic 



Oublious said:


> 1 you not but the iranian members well.
> 2 you stil dont get it, the missiles they added(picture of several meter long) are to big for submarine.
> 3 yes of course is a russian sub with missile, not iran.
> 
> thank you


The pic of several meters long missile was RPK-7 from Museum of torpedoes...  and it's indeed fired from submarines (yeah, it cant be fired from 533mm tubes ) 
if you are interested in this missile,you can read this 
РПК-7 Ветер - SS-N-16 STALLION (1984 г.) | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)

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## ChineseTiger1986

haman10 said:


> Well , yes . Thats the case for China for example .
> 
> but for iran , the Meshkat missile (assuming this one is meshkat) , has only a range of 2000km .
> 
> Maybe in future we can expand that too



We do have the SLCM as well, and it can carry both nuclear warhead and conventional warhead.

But having both is good, which is to diversify your portfolio.

DH-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our newer SSNs are all featured with the advanced VLS cells, which was designed to carry the DH-10.

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## haman10

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We do have the SLCM as well, and it can carry both nuclear warhead and conventional warhead.
> 
> But having both is good which is to diversify your portfolio.
> 
> DH-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Our newer SSNs are all featured with the advanced VLS cells, which was designed to carry the DH-10.


Yeah i know about that mate .

of course you guys started much earlier than Iran ,hence , you are much more advanced in this field .

Iran is new to the club , We are still really happy with 2000km-ranged meshkat which has about half the range of DH-10 

bear with us , lol .

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## A1Kaid

Congrats to Iran, Iran is now a super power in the region after this latest test. Iran should share this technology with Muslim brother countries.

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## scythian500

SOHEIL said:


>


Those who must receive the message will do it... you don,t dirt your blood... Drop off Satan's donkey bro... It is more fun to be a law quality video...either the film is a Photoshop or so important that they don,t like its dimensions to be revealed... as I said... you don,t dirt his blood.... Thumbs up for Turkey... Iranians know what is a thumb up...

PS: This reply is for that Turk brother... Iranians know this one too...

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## haman10

A1Kaid said:


> Congrats to Iran, Iran is now a super power in the region after this latest test. Iran should share this technology with Muslim brother countries.


No problem bro , But you guys should share your new AWACS systems too 

@Menace2Society

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## ChineseTiger1986

haman10 said:


> Yeah i know about that mate .
> 
> of course you guys started much earlier than Iran ,hence , you are much more advanced in this field .
> 
> Iran is new to the club , We are still really happy with 2000km-ranged meshkat which has about half the range of DH-10
> 
> bear with us , lol .



It doesn't matter, as long as you have mastered the technology, you will soon catch up.

The 2000km is the ground breaking benchmark for you submerged missile technology, so you will be able to improve up to 4000km or more in the future.

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## 500

scythian500 said:


> both ballistic and cruises are state of the art when it comes to precise measures needed to be taken for them to act properly.
> 
> A submerged launching platform, whether be a modified (activated) missile launch capability KILO CLASS or a new Iranian submarine will be STRATEGIC for Iran when it can travel thousands of miles in oceans and wait for instructions, it is simply a Second Strike Capability and it is even more strategic if it is Nuclear and with a range of thousands of KMs as if it is Meshkat... Maybe in future and due to all Nuke capable neighbors around us, Iran will be impelled to make Nuclear Warheads just to defend itself from demons. Iran does have its tech and infra to make at least 100 nukes in next 10 years... Does n,t it? OH..but your comedian, retarded prime youngster, bibi, has been declaring Iran is 6 months away from Nuclear Bombs 15 years ago!!! Either you have to trust your NUMBER ONE man in charge and his everyday promises or believe Claims that Iran is not that sophisticated to build Nuke Missiles!!!
> 
> Btw, to all Iranian fellas... No clear information about this weapon is out. The commander himself said, they can not disclose any more info about it as it is one of Iran's strategic weapons when the time has come. This means, we do not know what it is... please stop naive speculations... It must be something pragmatic and harmful, otherwise, IRCG would not have claim in day light that it is strategic.
> 
> The story of you 500 Israeli kid is the one that, people used to mock Germany and Japan and later, china and India for not being about to pose any threats after W W II. They mocked Japan every day until every technology in their homes became Made in Japan!!!
> 
> If you ask me about Israelis being masters of turning urine and other waste water and inject it back into your drinking water tabs, I definitely acknowledge your capability as its direct results are shining as talent and the power to conclude in yourself.
> 
> Israel is good, Iran is bad... bad bad bad.... everything Iran is making is rubbish and a show from Mullahs... whatever Israel assembles (sorry I meant installs...sorrry I meant putting together) is not only good but perfect...let,s wait and see if Iran makes the new Japan or on the contrary a new Israeli...
> 
> Dudes, we do not know that much about this new weapon... if they say it is strategic, then so be it... it must be...
> Do you really believe Iranian commanders are kids? they are well experienced soldiers...they know they can not bluff by saying they have many more weapons for the day of battle while they don,t! Iran's adversaries are not kids too... so, I trust commanders when they say, it is very unique...it is strategic and it is a big part of our surprise in doomsday...
> 
> I have heard stuff from people in Iran that if even half of it is true and operational, then not only Israel but also NATO can not do a thing to Iran... they may harm Iran hard..but Iran will harm them back hard too... Let,s hope... no war is out there so we both keep playing this amusing game or mocking one another while our commanders laugh at us for our analysis!!


All this "*second strike capability*" talk is *extremely silly*.

Iran has HUGE mountain terrain. Thus only countries which can wipe Iran are US and Russia. There is no any reason why would they do so.

But lets imagine they decided for some unknown reason to wipe Iran. Do u think they will allow Iranian joke subs to reach them and fire missiles? 

Now u compare urself with Germany and Japan? Thats good joke. Germany and Japan were worlds leading industrial powers since end of 19th century.


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## Mirzah

500 said:


> Now u compare urself with Germany and Japan? Thats good joke. Germany and Japan were worlds leading industrial powers since end of 19th century.



mr. zionist, iran was the world's first super power, the achaemenid persian empire. Cyrus the great freed your slave ancestors 
* *

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## 500

Mirzah said:


> mr. zionist, iran was the world's first super power, the achaemenid persian empire. Cyrus the great freed your slave ancestors
> * *


700 years ago Mongolia was also a worlds supapawa. So wut?


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## haman10

500 said:


> All this "*second strike capability*" talk is *extremely silly*.
> 
> Iran has HUGE mountain terrain. Thus only countries which can wipe Iran are US and Russia. There is no any reason why would they do so.
> 
> But lets imagine they decided for some unknown reason to wipe Iran. Do u think they will allow Iranian joke subs to reach them and fire missiles?
> 
> Now u compare urself with Germany and Japan? Thats good joke. Germany and Japan were worlds leading industrial powers since end of 19th century.









Still here ?

Remember ? there is nothing to discuss , yet after 2 days you're still here 

You offer nothing but shitty trolling . @Serpentine Omit this troll

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## scythian500

Oublious said:


> The topic is iran fired his own Submarine Launched Cruise Missile and not anti ship missile.
> 
> SO what the fak are we talking about?
> 
> 
> another propaganda offff Iroonnnnn...
> 
> 
> thank youuuuuu.



And a Turk enters..!!! Iranians know well what this means... Yes, propaganda and it is working... there is no Iranian missile in this footage launched from under water.... there is no submarine launching it... China and Russia help Iran everyday with its OFFENSIVE needs while they do not help with Defensive weapons (s-300)... Thanks God every sane body knows that neither Russia nor China are strategic partners to Iran when it comes to giving Iran effective weaponry systems.... Iranians have realized this decades ago and this is exactly why Iran is so advanced now in weaponry. 

Some Turk brothers are talking about Propaganda like It is only Iran that practices it!!! Mr. Erdogan is a master of propaganda as world knows.... US, Israel, China, Russia, even incapable KSA uses propaganda... It is a weapon along side others... It is called Soft Beheading... but... a big but...not like J.Lo's butt of course!

When Iranian commanders use propaganda, they are smart enough to know that enemy will not be fooled with false claims... they have both experience and wit to be able to distinguish between a MULLAH PROPAGANDA (such a powerful word that many brothers are afraid of!) False statement and A REAL PROPAGANDA backed with real, effective weapons.... So, with cognizance they use Propaganda... This is why, I trust Mullahs when they say we have even more UNDECLARED Weapons for the day of battle...I trust Obama, Holland, Bibi when they in day light state, "we will use nukes against Iran or any other enemy, if necessary!!!" *funny in this is that, Israel wants to NUKE Iranian nukes in order to prevent Iran from acquiring Nukes!!!!* Even a 2 year old Iranian child understand the absurdity of this imbalanced, paradox!!! Finally, I trust Iranian commanders when they say they can defend himself...

Sometimes, I hear naive judgments from brothers which I expect more....
Let us from now on, consider two facts when we want to comment;

1- Neither Iranian or American commanders are children... they know what to believe and what to laugh at... 
2- Non of us are as informative as those in charge with designing, building and deploying NEW WEAPONS... we have no right to impel our immature analysis into reality... Only* talk certain* about things you* are certain BY MEANS*, or just speculate but mention that you SPECULATE... otherwise, stay silent and enjoy the "Who's better?" game between Iranians, American, Turks...



500 said:


> 700 years ago Mongolia was also a worlds supapawa. So wut?


2 or 3 thousands years ago, a God awarded a land in 21th century to some chosen people... So wut?

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## ChineseTiger1986

I also think that Iran should build the new subs with the VLS, since it is better than the torpedo tube.

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## scythian500

500 said:


> All this "*second strike capability*" talk is *extremely silly*.
> 
> Iran has HUGE mountain terrain. Thus only countries which can wipe Iran are US and Russia. There is no any reason why would they do so.
> 
> But lets imagine they decided for some unknown reason to wipe Iran. Do u think they will allow Iranian joke subs to reach them and fire missiles?
> 
> Now u compare urself with Germany and Japan? Thats good joke. Germany and Japan were worlds leading industrial powers since end of 19th century.



Yes, I compare Iran no only with Germany but 2 times of Germany. One can not overlook Korea for its current level of technology just because it was not among LEADING INDUSTRIAL POWERS 30 years ago... the same goes with China, India, Brasil, Iran, Turkey... so what a loose conclusion!

But let,s imagine they decided for some known reasons to wipe Iran. Do you think Iranians will allow others to reach them and wipe them out?? Maybe they can wipe our A S S es!! Although, we wash it, despite others who make paintings with a piece of paper and at the end of they they need to take a shower or they smell!!! Iran is an scorpion with tens of legs each armed with one unique dagger, Iran is both a regular Army nation + a very experienced non-asymmetric army....

Western research sources declared if any war were to start with Iran, at least, and in its most pessimistic form, 15% of all Iranians will die for their country.... ok, it is somehow bigger than your total population in Occupied Palestine... is n,t it? This is even more lethal when we know, %95 of all Iranian men between 18 to 55 have passed at least two years in military service. So, they are ready to fight.... It is naive to think while enemies were threatening Iran with extinction, Iranians were sat down day-dreaming nd doing nothing!! You have no Idea what awaits you, if half of what I have heard about Iran recently is true.... let,s face it... all USA with all its sophisticated weapons...could not finish their self-raised Alghaeda, when we hear then everyday, they conquered somewhere new... Libya for instance... Occupied Palestine could not finish his so called small terrorist organizations around its tiny land.... How can a sane human conclude they can wipe out Iran which is the mother scorpion!!??

Nobody can wipe out a country and nation like Iran... It has been, and will be your nightmare at night and day-mares in daylight... Iran and Iranians are the oldest continuous civilized country in the whole history of civilization. If no power could have wipe Iran out despite ups and downs...why do you think this time will be any different?

The funny thing is that, whatever, you say about Iran...we say 2 times more about yourself... I once was in a country for Working & Holiday maker program.... I was living with two Israeli girls, pretty educated...well-sensed... they explained to me well what and how Israel is... they were telling stories from their time in military.... so, don,t be sure about what has injected into your mind as reality....

I hope no war unleashes...but if it does... let,s hope...neither of Iran or West is as powerful as they claim... we are humans at the end of the day...

Iran is changing in a day over day rate... Today's Iranian advancements in military power, equipment and technology is the story of you come to me saying C-802 is Iran's latest cruise while I look at you with my eyes got out of surprise!!! I,m an Iranian... I have my credible sources... I,m always behind latest, even thought I ask for updates every short while... If we argue about how good Iran or Occupied Palestine is in this or in that... we never gonna be finished with it... so let,s make a deal soldier.... Let,s wait and see what happens in future... let,s see if Iran is comparable to Germany or 10 times of Germany....

Anyhow, I wish the final peace for humanity... although, I,m rather sure that won,t be happening in my life time!

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## yavar

500 said:


> All this "*second strike capability*" talk is *extremely silly*..


silly the only silly here is you and Netanyadog .
on 3rd march Netanyadog is going to let you all know about how much peace full is our nuclear program is




just if you did not know this is new information been revealed about our peaceful nuclear program

*New details about Lavizan-3 *
National Council of Resistance of IranU.S. Representative Office - Home



haman10 said:


> Iran is new to the club , We are still really happy with 2000km-ranged meshkat which has about half the range .


I just want to be on record . you will regulate the 2000 KM nonsense .
i am not challenging you on that I just want to be on record brother



haman10 said:


> DH-10 .


and please wait till the details comes out and do not compare it to Chinese DH-10 . what you just been shown has 4 times more capability and speed than Chinese DH-10 .
I just want to be on record

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## scythian500

haman10 said:


> No problem bro , But you guys should share your new AWACS systems too
> 
> @Menace2Society


No need for sharing... We have great news regarding this radars too... Iranian young scientists are working on two different AWACS platforms.... one mini-awacs and one serious one... The first one is about to be installed on balloons and UAVs and the other one on Military transport type airplanes... the latter is comparable to what Pakistan received recently...



Oublious said:


> 1 you not but the iranian members well.
> 2 you stil dont get it, the missiles they added(picture of several meter long) are to big for submarine.
> 3 yes of course is a russian sub with missile, not iran.
> 
> thank you


why do you think a missile like the one fired from underwater is big for a 65 to 85 meters long submarine? Only if you meant 533 tubes it might be true..otherwise, it is very practical and possible to allocate space for this size of missile in a semi-heavy sub..although, Iran already has KILO class subs which are two times heavier and Iran already showed it can modify or upgrade them in the way they want it...



yavar said:


> silly the only silly here is you and Netanyadog .
> on 3rd march Netanyadog is going to let all know about how much peace full is our nuclear program is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just if you did not know this is new information been revealed about our peaceful nuclear program
> 
> *New details about Lavizan-3 *
> National Council of Resistance of IranU.S. Representative Office - Home
> 
> 
> I just want to be on record . you will regulate the 2000 KM nonsense .
> i am not challenging you on that I just want to be on record brother
> 
> 
> and please wait till the details comes out and do not compare it to Chinese DH-10 . what you just show has 4 times more capability and speed than Chinese DH-10 .
> I just want to be on record


There are at least four ways in which BIBI is making Occupied Palestine embarrassed; *perhaps the most significant is* when a regime like Occupied Palestine talks about an Iranian peaceful nuclear activity to be suspicious of being military, while, himself, the Prime Joker BIBI is from a regime which has Nuclear bombs!!!! what a paradox... it is like I condemn you eating candies while I have a bunch of them in my pockets and under my tongue!!!

*The second ridiculous* way is when, an official position holder like funny BIBI, draw paintings (that probably his grandsons draw it) to prove Iran only has 6 month to nukes....

*The third and most* funny one is when it is now 15 years or more that bibi and its colleagues that they claim Iran is only 6 months away from bomb. This 6 months have been repeated so much that when bibi wants to talk everybody knows what he want to say!!!

*The fourth and even more funny* is that, Bibi talks about that 6 months in conferences even about food security in Africa!! Although with that painting in UN in 2012, I don,t find it unlikely for him to only see SECURITY in "Food Security" title!!!



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It doesn't matter, as long as you have mastered the technology, you will soon catch up.
> 
> The 2000km is the ground breaking benchmark for you submerged missile technology, so you will be able to improve up to 4000km or more in the future.


The problem with 2000 Benchmark was not about capability but rather it was Iran's official range limit declared by our leaders. They wanted to make the world assured we only need 2000 km so we can defend ourselves against Occupied Palestine and Western bases in ME, but fortunately, this limit has being removed a year ago if I,m not wrong... Iran showed a good will first...West offended more... they made sanctions on oil and money transfer... Iran declared the limit removed... Iran is now ICBM capable...but Cruise missiles with ranges greated than 2000kms, are under construction

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## Syrian Lion

Masha'Allah, another great achievement by the people of Iran. Congratulations, and Insha'Allah we will see more achievements in the future..

and also just a reminder, THERE WILL BE HATERS !

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## Hassan Al-Somal

Syrian Lion said:


> Masha'Allah, another great achievement by the people of Iran. Congratulations, and Insha'Allah we will see more achievements in the future..
> 
> and also just a reminder, THERE WILL BE HATERS !



I second you bro. Congratulations to Iran and all of peace-loving people across the globe. Hopefully, it is already mass produced, and more capable missiles are in store. I see the haters distracting the topic, but what can they do other than hating?

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## gambit

Can we agree that water is much more dense than air and that moving thru water requires much more energy and effort ? Yes, we can agree.

By itself, launching a missile from *UNDER* water surface is no technically easy task, then add in the depth of water that the missile must travel through before breaking the surface and the technical issues are considerable.

*First*...There is the sea state...

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whatever the surface does, there are effects under the surface. A Cat 4 hurricane produced surface waves can affect underwater motions as deep as 100 meters. Obviously, no one is going to be launching subsurface missiles under these conditions. But even on the Douglas sea state of 0, there are underwater currents that *WILL* produce lateral course deviations of any body that travels perpendicular to those currents. An underwater missile launch will not be travelling with the current flow but quite vertically or with some angular path before breaking surface, correct ? So it appears the stability issues are quite resolved by the Iranians. We do not know up to what sea scale can this Iranian missile be launched but we can be generous with the kudos to the Iranians for resolving this.

*Next*...Breaking the surface...

Technically speaking, a torpedo is a missile -- an underwater missile -- of sorts. This is not semantics or wordplays to denigrate the Iranians. A torpedo is a technical sub-category of the missile family, and it is designed to operate underwater. Anyone who have been underwater, even in a bath tub, know how sensory deadened underwater can be. A torpedo is designed specifically for this environment. A missile, and let us use this word to denote an air traveling vehicle, is -- not so designed. This mean the missile must temporarily be a torpedo, and no matter how short that duration maybe, the entire contraption must have some awareness of the environments (plural) and when the contraption changes from a being a torpedo living underwater to an air traveling missile. It seems the Iranians have resolved this issue as well.

*Next*...The avionics...

The word 'avionics' is a portmanteau of 'aviation' and 'electronics'. A missile is an aircraft. Its avionics are designed for atmospheric flights. Its sensors are designed for effects that are produced by air, not effects produced by water. The avionics that depends on those sensors are engineered specifically for those effects from air, not effects from water. It means there cannot be a mismatch between sensors and the processors that work on those effects. It means the missile's avionics are essentially blind. The word 'blind' is important. It does not mean the avionics are not powered. It mean the entire avionics system is physically isolated from everything when it is underwater. Not only isolated but also protected because if the avionics are active, just waiting for those air produced effects, and somehow water produced effects are available, flight controls systems maybe activated underwater and disasters ensues.

If I look at this from a control system designer's perspective, there are several options available. The missile can have a physical switch that senses pressure differential between water pressure and air pressure. Now the question is the quality of this switch such as response time when the missile changes environment -- water to air. Assume the switch is top tier. Now the question is where to place the switch. If I place the switch at the missile's top section, the section that is the first to break surface, I must have a time delay based upon the missile's physical dimension, as from when the missile's lower section finally cleared the water's surface. Or I can place the switch at the missile's lowest part so there is no mistaking when the missile is no longer a torpedo.

This begs the question of: Are there advantages, disadvantages, and flaws on the location of this switch ? Absolutely.

If I place the switch at the missile's top section, the section that is the first to break surface, I can design in a pre-conditioning system that alerts the main avionics that the missile is about to break surface and these are the immediate air environment such as temperature, wind speed, baro, etc. If I place the switch at the lowest section, the section that is the last to clear water surface, the avionics would be shocked into service and sensors are at greatest risk for overload and require time to readjust. Or instead of just one switch, there can be several switches at strategic locations on the missile's body.

Depending on the missile's type, is it a pure ballistic or a cruise, I can design a control system with several switches to pre-condition the avionics' sub-systems to precision sequentially activate to maximize stability at environmental changes and finally -- stable flight. A ballistic missile does not have wings for aerodynamic exploitation but a cruise missile does, so I need to know when is the best time to deploy those wings. Going back to the Douglas sea scale. Since I may not have complete freedom to find stable location to launch, I should not have the missile in horizontal flight until X time have passed. I want the missile to continue vertical flight for at least two reasons:

1- To clear any potential higher than 0 sea state.
2- To allow the avionics time to assess the environment.

The longer this vertical flight, the better. But the downside is if the missile is a cruise type, the longer this vertical flight time, the higher the altitude, and the greater the risk of detection by the enemy. Remember, this is a subsurface launch, implying the launch mechanism -- the submarine -- want to get as close to the target as possible.

*Summary*...The technical issues presented are in no way comprehensive. The more sophisticate the base technology that supports the missile, no matter what type is it, the more sophisticate the weapon will be and the greater the flexibility of environment it can operate from. The US Navy is not going to tell you under what sea state it can subsurface launch its missiles, ballistic or cruise. For all you guys know, and I said 'you' without me in that group, the US Navy can subsurface launch under the cover of a Cat 4 hurricane and no one would know it.

Going back to the Iranians...What they did was technically impressive, and even if all they did was under sea state 0, they would be able to compensate for higher sea states. Kudos to them.

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## About.to.be.banned

PeeD said:


> Some points:
> 
> Its possible that this is indeed a SLBM considering following facts:
> 
> 1. It does not use a Tomahawk, Noor or supposedly Meshkat like mini trubofan/turbojet, for this the smoke is too heavy and one solid fuel booster would be sufficient instead of the two used.
> 
> 2. I have never seen a video of the Soviet Granit missile being launched but even a Granit like missile would not produce that amount of smoke, this is not typical for a ram jet engine. However there is the possibility that missiles like the Granit use a special higher power ram jet propulsion in their acceleration phase. If anyone finds a video of a submarine launch of the Granit it would be great.
> 
> 3. As it almost certainly employs a high thrust solid fuel engine beside its booster everything is hinting to a SLBM. There is no heavy AshM known to me that uses a soild fuel engine as this would drastically reduce its long range capability. It would be fast Mach 3-4+ at sea level but with a poor range.
> This missile is big, if it would be smaller, such a solid fuel AshM would make sense as a shortrange supersonic AshM.
> 
> 4. Because its certainly a big missile and most likely not a torpedo tube launched one, it needs a specialized launch platform
> 
> 5. For testing proposes it is possible that a very depressed trajectory was flown, i.e to test its max-q performance. We have seen depressed trajectory in other ballistic missiles. Under operational conditions its not efficient in regards of range but depressed trajectories can be used to reduce the warning time, because the enemies radars will not be able to track it at long range as in ballistic trajectories.
> 
> 
> This could be a very important development for Iran's deterrence capability.




The video makes some things clear

1. This is not a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. This has not been claimed as SLBM by Iran or by posters here and test video proves so. This missile has been fired at such depressed angle that it could not be a SLBM.

This either is a cruise missile capable of maneuver or a Submarine launched rocket. At this angle missile would never neave troposphere.


2. This size of missile could not be lauched from Torpedo tubes.

3. This missile has not been launched from VLS

4. This missile has emerged from sea with its boosters burning. This means that it has not been launched like a traditional SLBM or SLCM where pressurised air propels missile to surface and after that its engine ignites.

5. Combining point 2,3,&4 means that this is not a Submarine Launched Cruise Missile. This missile is a of a complete new category which could be called Undersea Launched Cruise Missile.

Now some poster ( I think @haman10 ) has speculated that this missile has been launched from special launchers fitted to your submarine. I only half agree with him. Though this has been launched from special launchers, I do not think those launchers have been welded on your Submarine. This is due to two reason. First being that if launchers are welded to your submarine, your submarine would become unstable when it launches this missile due to recoil. It may go into a uncontrolled spin.This is due to the reason that an externbally welded launch system would be at a greater distence from submarin's core and thus same amount of force would result in greater torque.Second being that igniting a missile inside a tube is dangerous for a Submarine. If missile fails for some reason, it would blow up your Submarine. This is the reason that mose SLBMs and SLCMs adopted pressurise air ejection system.


What I think is that this missile has been launched and would be employed from a specialised towed launched system (in similar ways like Towed Sonar arrays are employed with submarines) which would be towed by your submarines.

This would make increase sonar profile of your submarines, but let's be realistic here. Most of big navies with extensive ASW arm would have easily detected your subs anyway (I am talking about USN here, but there are at least two dozen more Navies apart from USN which has highly developed ASW arm), but your enemies could not. Your Arab enemies does not have a Navy to speak of, and Israelis (If this missile has enough range to reach Israel) could not bring their ASW assets to Persian Gulf. So it would satisfy needs of Iran.


I am with @rahi2357 on this one as I think he has depicted correct launch system in one of earlier post.




haman10 said:


> lol Tomahawak looks like a teeny tiny mosquito compared to this babe



That is a plus point for Tomahawk as a missile has to be teeny tiny in order to be launched from tubes. Number of Tube fired SLCM from a submarine is limited by storage capacity of a submarine (would be in hundreds) as all missiles could be fired from single torpedo tube. In VLS system or the system that Iran would employ, number of missiles are limited by number of Tubes (in single digit) and the Sub has to return to port in order to reload.


@kollang @Serpentine @mohsen @SOHEIL @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @Ostad @jack 86000 @Dominance @500 @yavar @Imran Khan @raptor22 @Azeri440 @gambit @Hyperion @Oscar @Oldman1 @rahi2357 @JEskandari @Oublious @Militant Atheist @xenon54 @Penguin

What do you think about this missile?

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## Arminkh

WHAT THE HELL?!!

Hats off! Congratulations to all Iranians and rest of our friends. I'm just speechless!



gambit said:


> Can we agree that water is much more dense than air and that moving thru water requires much more energy and effort ? Yes, we can agree.
> 
> By itself, launching a missile from *UNDER* water surface is no technically easy task, then add in the depth of water that the missile must travel through before breaking the surface and the technical issues are considerable.
> 
> *First*...There is the sea state...
> 
> Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Whatever the surface does, there are effects under the surface. A Cat 4 hurricane produced surface waves can affect underwater motions as deep as 100 meters. Obviously, no one is going to be launching subsurface missiles under these conditions. But even on the Douglas sea state of 0, there are underwater currents that *WILL* produce lateral course deviations of any body that travels perpendicular to those currents. An underwater missile launch will not be travelling with the current flow but quite vertically or with some angular path before breaking surface, correct ? So it appears the stability issues are quite resolved by the Iranians. We do not know up to what sea scale can this Iranian missile be launched but we can be generous with the kudos to the Iranians for resolving this.
> 
> *Next*...Breaking the surface...
> 
> Technically speaking, a torpedo is a missile -- an underwater missile -- of sorts. This is not semantics or wordplays to denigrate the Iranians. A torpedo is a technical sub-category of the missile family, and it is designed to operate underwater. Anyone who have been underwater, even in a bath tub, know how sensory deadened underwater can be. A torpedo is designed specifically for this environment. A missile, and let us use this word to denote an air traveling vehicle, is -- not so designed. This mean the missile must temporarily be a torpedo, and no matter how short that duration maybe, the entire contraption must have some awareness of the environments (plural) and when the contraption changes from a being a torpedo living underwater to an air traveling missile. It seems the Iranians have resolved this issue as well.
> 
> *Next*...The avionics...
> 
> The word 'avionics' is a portmanteau of 'aviation' and 'electronics'. A missile is an aircraft. Its avionics are designed for atmospheric flights. Its sensors are designed for effects that are produced by air, not effects produced by water. The avionics that depends on those sensors are engineered specifically for those effects from air, not effects from water. It means there cannot be a mismatch between sensors and the processors that work on those effects. It means the missile's avionics are essentially blind. The word 'blind' is important. It does not mean the avionics are not powered. It mean the entire avionics system is physically isolated from everything when it is underwater. Not only isolated but also protected because if the avionics are active, just waiting for those air produced effects, and somehow water produced effects are available, flight controls systems maybe activated underwater and disasters ensues.
> 
> If I look at this from a control system designer's perspective, there are several options available. The missile can have a physical switch that senses pressure differential between water pressure and air pressure. Now the question is the quality of this switch such as response time when the missile changes environment -- water to air. Assume the switch is top tier. Now the question is where to place the switch. If I place the switch at the missile's top section, the section that is the first to break surface, I must have a time delay based upon the missile's physical dimension, as from when the missile's lower section finally cleared the water's surface. Or I can place the switch at the missile's lowest part so there is no mistaking when the missile is no longer a torpedo.
> 
> This begs the question of: Are there advantages, disadvantages, and flaws on the location of this switch ? Absolutely.
> 
> If I place the switch at the missile's top section, the section that is the first to break surface, I can design in a pre-conditioning system that alerts the main avionics that the missile is about to break surface and these are the immediate air environment such as temperature, wind speed, baro, etc. If I place the switch at the lowest section, the section that is the last to clear water surface, the avionics would be shocked into service and sensors are at greatest risk for overload and require time to readjust. Or instead of just one switch, there can be several switches at strategic locations on the missile's body.
> 
> Depending on the missile's type, is it a pure ballistic or a cruise, I can design a control system with several switches to pre-condition the avionics' sub-systems to precision sequentially activate to maximize stability at environmental changes and finally -- stable flight. A ballistic missile does not have wings for aerodynamic exploitation but a cruise missile does, so I need to know when is the best time to deploy those wings. Going back to the Douglas sea scale. Since I may not have complete freedom to find stable location to launch, I should not have the missile in horizontal flight until X time have passed. I want the missile to continue vertical flight for at least two reasons:
> 
> 1- To clear any potential higher than 0 sea state.
> 2- To allow the avionics time to assess the environment.
> 
> The longer this vertical flight, the better. But the downside is if the missile is a cruise type, the longer this vertical flight time, the higher the altitude, and the greater the risk of detection by the enemy. Remember, this is a subsurface launch, implying the launch mechanism -- the submarine -- want to get as close to the target as possible.
> 
> *Summary*...The technical issues presented are in no way comprehensive. The more sophisticate the base technology that supports the missile, no matter what type is it, the more sophisticate the weapon will be and the greater the flexibility of environment it can operate from. The US Navy is not going to tell you under what sea state it can subsurface launch its missiles, ballistic or cruise. For all you guys know, and I said 'you' without me in that group, the US Navy can subsurface launch under the cover of a Cat 4 hurricane and no one would know it.
> 
> Going back to the Iranians...What they did was technically impressive, and even if all they did was under sea state 0, they would be able to compensate for higher sea states. Kudos to them.


Thanks for detailed analysis of the challenges.



About.to.be.banned said:


> The video makes some things clear
> 
> 1. This is not a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. This has not been claimed as SLBM by Iran or by posters here and test video proves so. This missile has been fired at such depressed angle that it could not be a SLBM.
> 
> This either is a cruise missile capable of maneuver or a Submarine launched rocket. At this angle missile would never neave troposphere.
> 
> 
> 2. This size of missile could not be lauched from Torpedo tubes.
> 
> 3. This missile has not been launched from VLS
> 
> 4. This missile has emerged from sea with its boosters burning. This means that it has not been launched like a traditional SLBM or SLCM where pressurised air propels missile to surface and after that its engine ignites.
> 
> 5. Combining point 2,3,&4 means that this is not a Submarine Launched Cruise Missile. This missile is a of a complete new category which could be called Undersea Launched Cruise Missile.
> 
> Now some poster ( I think @haman10 ) has speculated that this missile has been launched from special launchers fitted to your submarine. I only half agree with him. Though this has been launched from special launchers, I do not think those launchers have been welded on your Submarine. This is due to two reason. First being that if launchers are welded to your submarine, your submarine would become unstable when it launches this missile due to recoil. It may go into a uncontrolled spin.This is due to the reason that an externbally welded launch system would be at a greater distence from submarin's core and thus same amount of force would result in greater torque.Second being that igniting a missile inside a tube is dangerous for a Submarine. If missile fails for some reason, it would blow up your Submarine. This is the reason that mose SLBMs and SLCMs adopted pressurise air ejection system.
> 
> 
> What I think is that this missile has been launched and would be employed from a specialised towed launched system (in similar ways like Towed Sonar arrays are employed with submarines) which would be towed by your submarines.
> 
> This would make increase sonar profile of your submarines, but let's be realistic here. Most of big navies with extensive ASW arm would have easily detected your subs anyway (I am talking about USN here, but there are at least two dozen more Navies apart from USN which has highly developed ASW arm), but your enemies could not. Your Arab enemies does not have a Navy to speak of, and Israelis (If this missile has enough range to reach Israel) could not bring their ASW assets to Persian Gulf. So it would satisfy needs of Iran.
> 
> 
> I am with @rahi2357 on this one as I think he has depicted correct launch system in one of earlier post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a plus point for Tomahawk as a missile has to be teeny tiny in order to be launched from tubes. Number of Tube fired SLCM from a submarine is limited by storage capacity of a submarine (would be in hundreds) as all missiles could be fired from single torpedo tube. In VLS system or the system that Iran would employ, number of missiles are limited by number of Tubes (in single digit) and the Sub has to return to port in order to reload.
> 
> 
> @kollang @Serpentine @mohsen @SOHEIL @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @Ostad @jack 86000 @Dominance @500 @yavar @Imran Khan @raptor22 @Azeri440 @gambit @Hyperion @Oscar @Oldman1 @rahi2357 @JEskandari @Oublious @Militant Atheist @xenon54 @Penguin
> 
> What do you think about this missile?



I agree that none of the publicized Iran's subs have the capacity or the capability to lunch such missile. Lets remember that this was an IRGC war game, meaning Iran's Navy Assets were not used. That rules out the kilo class and Fateh submarine. 

As far as I know publicized use of subs by IRGC is limited to Ghadir subs, which neither would be able to fit this monster inside their chassis, neither are that large and powerful to be able to handle exterior lunch tube. I also don't think they are capable of towing a launch facility.

I'd say, there is another submerged carrier that we don't know about. Maybe a larger submarine that we have not heard about? Remember this missile was not developed overnight. Who knows what else Iran has that nobody know about. Iran's military leaders have always said what goes public is only a fraction of the actual capabilities.

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## About.to.be.banned

Arminkh said:


> WHAT THE HELL?!!
> 
> Hats off! Congratulations to all Iranians and rest of our friends. I'm just speechless!
> 
> 
> Thanks for detailed analysis of the challenges.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that none of the publicized Iran's subs have the capacity or the capability to lunch such missile. Lets remember that this was an IRGC war game, meaning Iran's Navy Assets were not used. That rules out the kilo class and Fateh submarine.
> 
> As far as I know publicized use of subs by IRGC is limited to Ghadir subs, which neither would be able to fit this monster inside their chassis, neither are that large and powerful to be able to handle exterior lunch tube. I also don't think they are capable of towing a launch facility.
> 
> I'd say, there is another submerged carrier that we don't know about. Maybe a larger submarine that we have not heard about? Remember this missile was not developed overnight. Who knows what else Iran has that nobody know about. Iran's military leaders have always said what goes public is only a fraction of the actual capabilities.




I do not think that any Sub in the world would be able to launch that size missile from tubes, so you could be sure that Iran also could not. This is not a VLS launch so by process of elimination, only towed launchers are left.


Subs could tow sonar arrays. I think they could also Tow a launching system though at very great compromise in speed and stealth. And number of towed missiles would not be more than a couple or so.

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## Arminkh

About.to.be.banned said:


> I do not think that any Sub in the world would be able to launch that size missile from tubes, so you could be sure that Iran also could not. This is not a VLS launch so by process of elimination, only towed launchers are left.
> 
> 
> Subs could tow sonar arrays. I think they could also Tow a launching system though at very great compromise in speed and stealth. And number of towed missiles would not be more than a couple or so.



This missile is apparently heavy. Otherwise it didn't need a booster that was burning 4+ seconds after it took off water (and probably more after that)

A launcher that can carry this type of missile will be very heavy. It simply would need all the weight balancing features and fins that a submarine has in order to keep afloat and be able to follow the sub. I think it is easier to build a sub that can carry such missile than having a towed launcher wit all those challenges. IRGC number one strategic priority is being fast and mobile. Having a heavy launcher ground their subs goes against that priority.

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## About.to.be.banned

Arminkh said:


> This missile is apparently heavy. Otherwise it didn't need a booster that was burning 4+ seconds after it took off water (and probably more after that)
> 
> A launcher that can carry this type of missile will be very heavy. It simply would need all the weight balancing features and fins that a submarine has in order to keep afloat and be able to follow the sub. I think it is easier to build a sub that can carry such missile than having a towed launcher wit all those challenges. IRGC number one strategic priority is being fast and mobile. Having a heavy launcher ground their subs goes against that priority.




Only inbuilt system that could launch this missile is a Vertical launch system. Since this is not a VLS launch, I still think that diagram of @rahi2357 is correct and this is a launch from towed launchers (pontoon) rather than a new Submarine.

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## haman10

gambit said:


> Can we agree that water is much more dense than air and that moving thru water requires much more energy and effort ? Yes, we can agree.
> 
> By itself, launching a missile from *UNDER* water surface is no technically easy task, then add in the depth of water that the missile must travel through before breaking the surface and the technical issues are considerable.
> 
> *First*...There is the sea state...
> 
> Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Whatever the surface does, there are effects under the surface. A Cat 4 hurricane produced surface waves can affect underwater motions as deep as 100 meters. Obviously, no one is going to be launching subsurface missiles under these conditions. But even on the Douglas sea state of 0, there are underwater currents that *WILL* produce lateral course deviations of any body that travels perpendicular to those currents. An underwater missile launch will not be travelling with the current flow but quite vertically or with some angular path before breaking surface, correct ? So it appears the stability issues are quite resolved by the Iranians. We do not know up to what sea scale can this Iranian missile be launched but we can be generous with the kudos to the Iranians for resolving this.
> 
> *Next*...Breaking the surface...
> 
> Technically speaking, a torpedo is a missile -- an underwater missile -- of sorts. This is not semantics or wordplays to denigrate the Iranians. A torpedo is a technical sub-category of the missile family, and it is designed to operate underwater. Anyone who have been underwater, even in a bath tub, know how sensory deadened underwater can be. A torpedo is designed specifically for this environment. A missile, and let us use this word to denote an air traveling vehicle, is -- not so designed. This mean the missile must temporarily be a torpedo, and no matter how short that duration maybe, the entire contraption must have some awareness of the environments (plural) and when the contraption changes from a being a torpedo living underwater to an air traveling missile. It seems the Iranians have resolved this issue as well.
> 
> *Next*...The avionics...
> 
> The word 'avionics' is a portmanteau of 'aviation' and 'electronics'. A missile is an aircraft. Its avionics are designed for atmospheric flights. Its sensors are designed for effects that are produced by air, not effects produced by water. The avionics that depends on those sensors are engineered specifically for those effects from air, not effects from water. It means there cannot be a mismatch between sensors and the processors that work on those effects. It means the missile's avionics are essentially blind. The word 'blind' is important. It does not mean the avionics are not powered. It mean the entire avionics system is physically isolated from everything when it is underwater. Not only isolated but also protected because if the avionics are active, just waiting for those air produced effects, and somehow water produced effects are available, flight controls systems maybe activated underwater and disasters ensues.
> 
> If I look at this from a control system designer's perspective, there are several options available. The missile can have a physical switch that senses pressure differential between water pressure and air pressure. Now the question is the quality of this switch such as response time when the missile changes environment -- water to air. Assume the switch is top tier. Now the question is where to place the switch. If I place the switch at the missile's top section, the section that is the first to break surface, I must have a time delay based upon the missile's physical dimension, as from when the missile's lower section finally cleared the water's surface. Or I can place the switch at the missile's lowest part so there is no mistaking when the missile is no longer a torpedo.
> 
> This begs the question of: Are there advantages, disadvantages, and flaws on the location of this switch ? Absolutely.
> 
> If I place the switch at the missile's top section, the section that is the first to break surface, I can design in a pre-conditioning system that alerts the main avionics that the missile is about to break surface and these are the immediate air environment such as temperature, wind speed, baro, etc. If I place the switch at the lowest section, the section that is the last to clear water surface, the avionics would be shocked into service and sensors are at greatest risk for overload and require time to readjust. Or instead of just one switch, there can be several switches at strategic locations on the missile's body.
> 
> Depending on the missile's type, is it a pure ballistic or a cruise, I can design a control system with several switches to pre-condition the avionics' sub-systems to precision sequentially activate to maximize stability at environmental changes and finally -- stable flight. A ballistic missile does not have wings for aerodynamic exploitation but a cruise missile does, so I need to know when is the best time to deploy those wings. Going back to the Douglas sea scale. Since I may not have complete freedom to find stable location to launch, I should not have the missile in horizontal flight until X time have passed. I want the missile to continue vertical flight for at least two reasons:
> 
> 1- To clear any potential higher than 0 sea state.
> 2- To allow the avionics time to assess the environment.
> 
> The longer this vertical flight, the better. But the downside is if the missile is a cruise type, the longer this vertical flight time, the higher the altitude, and the greater the risk of detection by the enemy. Remember, this is a subsurface launch, implying the launch mechanism -- the submarine -- want to get as close to the target as possible.
> 
> *Summary*...The technical issues presented are in no way comprehensive. The more sophisticate the base technology that supports the missile, no matter what type is it, the more sophisticate the weapon will be and the greater the flexibility of environment it can operate from. The US Navy is not going to tell you under what sea state it can subsurface launch its missiles, ballistic or cruise. For all you guys know, and I said 'you' without me in that group, the US Navy can subsurface launch under the cover of a Cat 4 hurricane and no one would know it.
> 
> Going back to the Iranians...What they did was technically impressive, and even if all they did was under sea state 0, they would be able to compensate for higher sea states. Kudos to them.





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Today, I am officially becoming a military fanboy of Iran.



Positive ratings needed bro @Serpentine

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## Arminkh

About.to.be.banned said:


> Only inbuilt system that could launch this missile is a Vertical launch system. Since this is not a VLS launch, I still think that diagram of @rahi2357 is correct and this is a launch from towed launchers (pontoon) rather than a new Submarine.


See this:






This is a tomahawk launched from a vertical tube. So the missile's angle of entry into air has nothing to do with it's launch angle. Thus we can't conclude that the Iranian one was not launched vertically.

The other thing is that in this video you can see the subs periscope above water meaning the distance that the missile cruised under water is only a few meters.

However, in Iranian version, you don't see any periscope. It may be actually launched horizontally under the sea. That may have used an external tube like this:


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6xGzoMsgJW4/Tn_zj2TJu5I/AAAAAAAAEx8/dAFd0oad7Tg/s200/00.jpg

They may have combined the hoot super cavity engine with a cruise missile. The super cavity engine can act as a first stage both moving it towards the surface and giving it a considerable boost in speed. The second stage will start as soon as the missile reaches the surface which is what we saw.

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## SOHEIL

About.to.be.banned said:


> The video makes some things clear
> 
> 1. This is not a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. This has not been claimed as SLBM by Iran or by posters here and test video proves so. This missile has been fired at such depressed angle that it could not be a SLBM.
> 
> This either is a cruise missile capable of maneuver or a Submarine launched rocket. At this angle missile would never neave troposphere.
> 
> 
> 2. This size of missile could not be lauched from Torpedo tubes.
> 
> 3. This missile has not been launched from VLS
> 
> 4. This missile has emerged from sea with its boosters burning. This means that it has not been launched like a traditional SLBM or SLCM where pressurised air propels missile to surface and after that its engine ignites.
> 
> 5. Combining point 2,3,&4 means that this is not a Submarine Launched Cruise Missile. This missile is a of a complete new category which could be called Undersea Launched Cruise Missile.
> 
> Now some poster ( I think @haman10 ) has speculated that this missile has been launched from special launchers fitted to your submarine. I only half agree with him. Though this has been launched from special launchers, I do not think those launchers have been welded on your Submarine. This is due to two reason. First being that if launchers are welded to your submarine, your submarine would become unstable when it launches this missile due to recoil. It may go into a uncontrolled spin.This is due to the reason that an externbally welded launch system would be at a greater distence from submarin's core and thus same amount of force would result in greater torque.Second being that igniting a missile inside a tube is dangerous for a Submarine. If missile fails for some reason, it would blow up your Submarine. This is the reason that mose SLBMs and SLCMs adopted pressurise air ejection system.
> 
> 
> What I think is that this missile has been launched and would be employed from a specialised towed launched system (in similar ways like Towed Sonar arrays are employed with submarines) which would be towed by your submarines.
> 
> This would make increase sonar profile of your submarines, but let's be realistic here. Most of big navies with extensive ASW arm would have easily detected your subs anyway (I am talking about USN here, but there are at least two dozen more Navies apart from USN which has highly developed ASW arm), but your enemies could not. Your Arab enemies does not have a Navy to speak of, and Israelis (If this missile has enough range to reach Israel) could not bring their ASW assets to Persian Gulf. So it would satisfy needs of Iran.
> 
> 
> I am with @rahi2357 on this one as I think he has depicted correct launch system in one of earlier post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a plus point for Tomahawk as a missile has to be teeny tiny in order to be launched from tubes. Number of Tube fired SLCM from a submarine is limited by storage capacity of a submarine (would be in hundreds) as all missiles could be fired from single torpedo tube. In VLS system or the system that Iran would employ, number of missiles are limited by number of Tubes (in single digit) and the Sub has to return to port in order to reload.
> 
> 
> @kollang @Serpentine @mohsen @SOHEIL @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @Ostad @jack 86000 @Dominance @500 @yavar @Imran Khan @raptor22 @Azeri440 @gambit @Hyperion @Oscar @Oldman1 @rahi2357 @JEskandari @Oublious @Militant Atheist @xenon54 @Penguin
> 
> What do you think about this missile?



What is your idea about a vertical tube !

We have to wait for more information about this :

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## About.to.be.banned

Arminkh said:


> See this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is a tomahawk launched from a vertical tube. So the missile's angle of entry into air has nothing to do with it's launch angle.* Thus we can't conclude that the Iranian one was not launched vertically.
> 
> The other thing is that in this video you can see the subs periscope above water meaning the distance that the missile cruised under water is only a few meters.
> 
> However, in Iranian version, you don't see any periscope. It may be actually launched horizontally under the sea. That may have used an external tube like this:
> 
> 
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6xGzoMsgJW4/Tn_zj2TJu5I/AAAAAAAAEx8/dAFd0oad7Tg/s200/00.jpg
> 
> They may have combined the hoot super cavity engine with a cruise missile. The super cavity engine can act as a first stage both moving it towards the surface and giving it a considerable boost in speed. The second stage will start as soon as the missile reaches the surface which is what we saw.




If you view this video you find that first launch has been vertical and missile has gone up. Second missile too has been launched vertically and has reoriented after getting out of water. You would notice that if you see a plume of pressurised gas + water shooting up just a fraction of second before missiles exits.

There is no periscope in case of Iranian launch as probably there was no sub around. This test was from a pontoon pretty much like all Indian SLBM test of India has been, as India's SSBN is only in service now, not five years ago when India started SLBM's test.

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## SOHEIL

About.to.be.banned said:


> Only inbuilt system that could launch this missile is a Vertical launch system. Since this is not a VLS launch, I still think that diagram of @rahi2357 is correct and this is a launch from towed launchers (pontoon) rather than a new Submarine.



Just a crazy proposal !!!

Please mind technical & operational difficulties !

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## yavar

Wisdom said:


> Hey brother at Iran Military forum someone posted your video and said it was from you, and it's the highest
> Ranked video with 14 points. Thanks for still keeping us informed


np brother . thanks for your nice words

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## 500

scythian500 said:


> Yes, I compare Iran no only with Germany but 2 times of Germany. One can not overlook Korea for its current level of technology just because it was not among LEADING INDUSTRIAL POWERS 30 years ago...


Korea... When your ayatulas came to power Iran had MORE GNP per capita than Korea! Now Korea has 5.5 times more.






World Development Indicators-Google Public Data Explorer

So first u need to kick ur ayatulas then probably something will work in Iran.



> But let,s imagine they decided for some known reasons to wipe Iran. Do you think Iranians will allow others to reach them and wipe them out??


All US and Russia need to do is push the button. In 10 minutes there will be no Iran.

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## haman10

500 said:


> All US and Russia need to do is push the button. In 10 minutes there will be no Iran.


Maybe .

But for a regime like you its like this : all "russia , US and iran" need to do is pushing a button .

10 mins tops and there will be no zionist regime

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## Oldman1

Arminkh said:


> See this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a tomahawk launched from a vertical tube. So the missile's angle of entry into air has nothing to do with it's launch angle. Thus we can't conclude that the Iranian one was not launched vertically.
> 
> The other thing is that in this video you can see the subs periscope above water meaning the distance that the missile cruised under water is only a few meters.
> 
> However, in Iranian version, you don't see any periscope. It may be actually launched horizontally under the sea. That may have used an external tube like this:
> 
> 
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6xGzoMsgJW4/Tn_zj2TJu5I/AAAAAAAAEx8/dAFd0oad7Tg/s200/00.jpg
> 
> They may have combined the hoot super cavity engine with a cruise missile. The super cavity engine can act as a first stage both moving it towards the surface and giving it a considerable boost in speed. The second stage will start as soon as the missile reaches the surface which is what we saw.



Astute subs don't have vertical tubes. 




This one was launch from a U.S. boat and you don't see a periscope.


----------



## Azeri440

About.to.be.banned said:


> The video makes some things clear
> 
> 1. This is not a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. This has not been claimed as SLBM by Iran or by posters here and test video proves so. This missile has been fired at such depressed angle that it could not be a SLBM.
> 
> This either is a cruise missile capable of maneuver or a Submarine launched rocket. At this angle missile would never neave troposphere.
> 
> 
> 2. This size of missile could not be lauched from Torpedo tubes.
> 
> 3. This missile has not been launched from VLS
> 
> 4. This missile has emerged from sea with its boosters burning. This means that it has not been launched like a traditional SLBM or SLCM where pressurised air propels missile to surface and after that its engine ignites.
> 
> 5. Combining point 2,3,&4 means that this is not a Submarine Launched Cruise Missile. This missile is a of a complete new category which could be called Undersea Launched Cruise Missile.
> 
> Now some poster ( I think @haman10 ) has speculated that this missile has been launched from special launchers fitted to your submarine. I only half agree with him. Though this has been launched from special launchers, I do not think those launchers have been welded on your Submarine. This is due to two reason. First being that if launchers are welded to your submarine, your submarine would become unstable when it launches this missile due to recoil. It may go into a uncontrolled spin.This is due to the reason that an externbally welded launch system would be at a greater distence from submarin's core and thus same amount of force would result in greater torque.Second being that igniting a missile inside a tube is dangerous for a Submarine. If missile fails for some reason, it would blow up your Submarine. This is the reason that mose SLBMs and SLCMs adopted pressurise air ejection system.
> 
> 
> What I think is that this missile has been launched and would be employed from a specialised towed launched system (in similar ways like Towed Sonar arrays are employed with submarines) which would be towed by your submarines.
> 
> This would make increase sonar profile of your submarines, but let's be realistic here. Most of big navies with extensive ASW arm would have easily detected your subs anyway (I am talking about USN here, but there are at least two dozen more Navies apart from USN which has highly developed ASW arm), but your enemies could not. Your Arab enemies does not have a Navy to speak of, and Israelis (If this missile has enough range to reach Israel) could not bring their ASW assets to Persian Gulf. So it would satisfy needs of Iran.
> 
> 
> I am with @rahi2357 on this one as I think he has depicted correct launch system in one of earlier post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a plus point for Tomahawk as a missile has to be teeny tiny in order to be launched from tubes. Number of Tube fired SLCM from a submarine is limited by storage capacity of a submarine (would be in hundreds) as all missiles could be fired from single torpedo tube. In VLS system or the system that Iran would employ, number of missiles are limited by number of Tubes (in single digit) and the Sub has to return to port in order to reload.
> 
> 
> @kollang @Serpentine @mohsen @SOHEIL @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @Ostad @jack 86000 @Dominance @500 @yavar @Imran Khan @raptor22 @Azeri440 @gambit @Hyperion @Oscar @Oldman1 @rahi2357 @JEskandari @Oublious @Militant Atheist @xenon54 @Penguin
> 
> What do you think about this missile?





I do agree with your analysis , also worth to mention some Iranian members say it was Besat sub
Besat-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but considering its displacement its quite smaller than U-214
which leads me to doubt that such missile could even be fitted in Besat.

unless there is some secret Iranian sub then I agree that it seems to be a separate launcher.



haman10 said:


> Maybe .
> 
> But for a regime like you its like this : all "russia , US and iran" need to do is pushing a button .
> 
> 10 mins tops and there will be no zionist regime



really? how will that happen?

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## Oldman1

About.to.be.banned said:


> The video makes some things clear
> 
> 1. This is not a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. This has not been claimed as SLBM by Iran or by posters here and test video proves so. This missile has been fired at such depressed angle that it could not be a SLBM.
> 
> This either is a cruise missile capable of maneuver or a Submarine launched rocket. At this angle missile would never neave troposphere.
> 
> 
> 2. This size of missile could not be lauched from Torpedo tubes.
> 
> 3. This missile has not been launched from VLS
> 
> 4. This missile has emerged from sea with its boosters burning. This means that it has not been launched like a traditional SLBM or SLCM where pressurised air propels missile to surface and after that its engine ignites.
> 
> 5. Combining point 2,3,&4 means that this is not a Submarine Launched Cruise Missile. This missile is a of a complete new category which could be called Undersea Launched Cruise Missile.
> 
> Now some poster ( I think @haman10 ) has speculated that this missile has been launched from special launchers fitted to your submarine. I only half agree with him. Though this has been launched from special launchers, I do not think those launchers have been welded on your Submarine. This is due to two reason. First being that if launchers are welded to your submarine, your submarine would become unstable when it launches this missile due to recoil. It may go into a uncontrolled spin.This is due to the reason that an externbally welded launch system would be at a greater distence from submarin's core and thus same amount of force would result in greater torque.Second being that igniting a missile inside a tube is dangerous for a Submarine. If missile fails for some reason, it would blow up your Submarine. This is the reason that mose SLBMs and SLCMs adopted pressurise air ejection system.
> 
> 
> What I think is that this missile has been launched and would be employed from a specialised towed launched system (in similar ways like Towed Sonar arrays are employed with submarines) which would be towed by your submarines.
> 
> This would make increase sonar profile of your submarines, but let's be realistic here. Most of big navies with extensive ASW arm would have easily detected your subs anyway (I am talking about USN here, but there are at least two dozen more Navies apart from USN which has highly developed ASW arm), but your enemies could not. Your Arab enemies does not have a Navy to speak of, and Israelis (If this missile has enough range to reach Israel) could not bring their ASW assets to Persian Gulf. So it would satisfy needs of Iran.
> 
> 
> I am with @rahi2357 on this one as I think he has depicted correct launch system in one of earlier post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a plus point for Tomahawk as a missile has to be teeny tiny in order to be launched from tubes. Number of Tube fired SLCM from a submarine is limited by storage capacity of a submarine (would be in hundreds) as all missiles could be fired from single torpedo tube. In VLS system or the system that Iran would employ, number of missiles are limited by number of Tubes (in single digit) and the Sub has to return to port in order to reload.
> 
> 
> @kollang @Serpentine @mohsen @SOHEIL @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @Ostad @jack 86000 @Dominance @500 @yavar @Imran Khan @raptor22 @Azeri440 @gambit @Hyperion @Oscar @Oldman1 @rahi2357 @JEskandari @Oublious @Militant Atheist @xenon54 @Penguin
> 
> What do you think about this missile?



Possible launch like the UGM-109 from a canister?

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## monaspa

About.to.be.banned said:


> The video makes some things clear
> 
> 1. This is not a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. This has not been claimed as SLBM by Iran or by posters here and test video proves so. This missile has been fired at such depressed angle that it could not be a SLBM.
> 
> This either is a cruise missile capable of maneuver or a Submarine launched rocket. At this angle missile would never neave troposphere.
> 
> 
> 2. This size of missile could not be lauched from Torpedo tubes.
> 
> 3. This missile has not been launched from VLS
> 
> 4. This missile has emerged from sea with its boosters burning. This means that it has not been launched like a traditional SLBM or SLCM where pressurised air propels missile to surface and after that its engine ignites.
> 
> 5. Combining point 2,3,&4 means that this is not a Submarine Launched Cruise Missile. This missile is a of a complete new category which could be called Undersea Launched Cruise Missile.
> 
> Now some poster ( I think @haman10 ) has speculated that this missile has been launched from special launchers fitted to your submarine. I only half agree with him. Though this has been launched from special launchers, I do not think those launchers have been welded on your Submarine. This is due to two reason. First being that if launchers are welded to your submarine, your submarine would become unstable when it launches this missile due to recoil. It may go into a uncontrolled spin.This is due to the reason that an externbally welded launch system would be at a greater distence from submarin's core and thus same amount of force would result in greater torque.Second being that igniting a missile inside a tube is dangerous for a Submarine. If missile fails for some reason, it would blow up your Submarine. This is the reason that mose SLBMs and SLCMs adopted pressurise air ejection system.
> 
> 
> What I think is that this missile has been launched and would be employed from a specialised towed launched system (in similar ways like Towed Sonar arrays are employed with submarines) which would be towed by your submarines.
> 
> This would make increase sonar profile of your submarines, but let's be realistic here. Most of big navies with extensive ASW arm would have easily detected your subs anyway (I am talking about USN here, but there are at least two dozen more Navies apart from USN which has highly developed ASW arm), but your enemies could not. Your Arab enemies does not have a Navy to speak of, and Israelis (If this missile has enough range to reach Israel) could not bring their ASW assets to Persian Gulf. So it would satisfy needs of Iran.
> 
> 
> I am with @rahi2357 on this one as I think he has depicted correct launch system in one of earlier post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a plus point for Tomahawk as a missile has to be teeny tiny in order to be launched from tubes. Number of Tube fired SLCM from a submarine is limited by storage capacity of a submarine (would be in hundreds) as all missiles could be fired from single torpedo tube. In VLS system or the system that Iran would employ, number of missiles are limited by number of Tubes (in single digit) and the Sub has to return to port in order to reload.
> 
> 
> @kollang @Serpentine @mohsen @SOHEIL @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @Ostad @jack 86000 @Dominance @500 @yavar @Imran Khan @raptor22 @Azeri440 @gambit @Hyperion @Oscar @Oldman1 @rahi2357 @JEskandari @Oublious @Militant Atheist @xenon54 @Penguin
> 
> What do you think about this missile?


can you say more about point 2 and point 3 ?


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## About.to.be.banned

monaspa said:


> can you say more about point 2 and point 3 ?




In order to be capable of of being able to be launched from Torpedo tubes, a missile should be thin (533mm dia), short (lenght of torpedo tube), and light (capable of being loaded manually).Thus this missile could not have been launched from a torpedo tube.

In VLS system, as the name suggest, missile should be launched vertically. such depression of launch angles is not possible in a VLS launch.


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## monaspa

About.to.be.banned said:


> In order to be capable of of being able to be launched from Torpedo tubes, a missile should be thin (533mm dia), short (lenght of torpedo tube), and light (capable of being loaded manually).Thus this missile could not have been launched from a torpedo tube.
> 
> In VLS system, as the name suggest, missile should be launched vertically. such depression of launch angles is not possible in a VLS launch.


There are at least several submarines capable launching 650mm torpedoes ,including Russian Akula Class (4 650MM tubes) and German Dolphin (Displacement is closer to Iranian Baset Sub)

here is VL of Tomahawk from Los Angeles Class submarines


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## About.to.be.banned

Missiles ,specially Cruise missiles, could reoirient themselves after launch. See at 0:47 . This missile has been launched vertically.

There is so much pressure on missile when it is under water that it could not reorient before at least some part of missile is outside water as attemts to reorient missile under water could break it.


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## Dominance

Dominance said:


> This might be an informative article for Persian speakers:
> خبرگزاری بین المللی تسنیم - فتح عرصه جدید موشکی/ "موشک‌ زیرآبی سپاه" را بیشتر بشناسید + تصاویر


Another one:
موشک زیر آبی سپاه اینگونه زیر آب اقتدار دریایی آمریکا را زد +عکس - مشرق نیوز | mashreghnews.ir

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## Cyrus the Great

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It doesn't matter, as long as you have mastered the technology, you will soon catch up.
> 
> The 2000km is the ground breaking benchmark for you submerged missile technology, so you will be able to improve up to 4000km or more in the future.



@ 中国虎 - which city are you in china? 我在 大连

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## Minute by Minute

@500,
It is a well known fact and strategy of usa to not only ALLOW, but also help to develop a western freindly nation, that borders a nation, they are targetting for destablization. They did it with regards to East Germany, they have done it with regards to North Korea, and China.
In our part of the World the occupied Palestine by the fascist zionists has amongst other roles been groomed to have the same function. The only difference is, that in 60 years, with all your bloodsucking of the poor American people, with all the help by the entire western World, with all your theft and genocide of the palestinian people, you have proven to be so incompetent, that you are still a broken force, not even capable of sustaining yourselves!
Hopfully one day the people of the World will finally see through your lies, unite against your bankers and blackmailers, unite against you and do to you, what has been done to us on your behest!, And I bet the key to my appartment, that you will not even last A YEAR!.
We may not live a 100 years of an empty life. We may not drive mercedes or have the newest flat screen. We are paying the Price for our independence in a World well on its way towards a global dictatorship, that will make the nazi Germany look like a kindergarden. A global nightmare created by your ideologs and your financiers! Still we will be standing tall long after you fascist zionists are nothing but a forgotten disgrace in the minds of a few academics! Have no doubt, one day people of the world will curse you for all eternity!

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## Archdemon

haman10 said:


> The video has been extremely obnoxious for them . leave it there
> 
> SECOND STRIKE CAPABILITY BABY
> 
> Khkhk , Toff



What second strike capability? So Iran do develop nuclear weapons?


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## haman10

Archdemon said:


> What second strike capability? So Iran do develop nuclear weapons?


Your moaning and b!tching "prime ministers" think so .

Why ?

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## Archdemon

Why booster and main rocket engine working simultaneously?


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## haman10

Archdemon said:


> Why booster and main rocket engine working simultaneously?


Why is the sky blue ?

why is there some water being pushed away ?

why does the missile look like a tube ?

why don't i see any air here ? WTF ?

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## Archdemon

haman10 said:


> Why is the sky blue ?
> 
> why is there some water being pushed away ?
> 
> why does the missile look like a tube ?
> 
> why don't i see any air here ? WTF ?



If you have no speculation it is better to keep your fingers away from keyboard.


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## haman10

Archdemon said:


> If you have no speculation it is better to keep your fingers away from keyboard.


Or else , you'll CAPS LOCK me to death eh ?

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## Al-Kurdi

Mirzah said:


> mr. zionist, iran was the world's first super power, the achaemenid persian empire. Cyrus the great freed your slave ancestors
> * *



Correction Proto-Median

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## Dominance

Dominance said:


> Any ideas?


Some say that it's a camera. 
Well, I'm not convinced. Why to place a camera there and direct it at somewhere else?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Cyrus the Great said:


> @ 中国虎 - which city are you in china? 我在 大连



I am presently not in China, but my native city is 上海.


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## BLACKEAGLE

It's for sure fake, because:

1- Iran only has domestic submarines which their displacement varies between 10 - 1200 tons and these are basic submarines directed to throw mines in shallow waters especially in the Arabian gulf and have no capability of launching missiles.The other type of submarines Iran has is the Kilo class which definitely has no cruise missile capability.

2- Showing submarine-launched cruise missile for the first time over night is impossible.

3- Iran has a long history of showing off fake products which were later clearly proved to be fake and there are many examples.

4- The fourth and most important reason is the vague five seconds - long video of the launched cruise missile. It's very hard for our pitiful minds to believe that Iran which is very very much known for it's lust and love for showing off stuff, and nothing would have satisfied Iranian generals more than showing off such an achievement through super video cameras for several minutes, to show this with this shortness and vagueness.

I believe this is part of Iranian Mullahs internal recipes to calm down people from the deteriorating economic conditions.

The second possible reason is to cover the embarrassment the teeny tiny UAE causing through it's home-made top notch products at IDEX 2015.

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## ALPfollowerOF373

BLACKEAGLE said:


> It's for sure fake, because:
> 
> 1- Iran only has domestic submarines which their displacement varies between 10 - 1200 tons and these are basic submarines directed to throw mines in shallow waters especially in the Arabian gulf and have no capability of launching missiles.The other type of submarines Iran has is the Kilo class which definitely has no cruise missile capability.
> 
> 2- Showing submarine-launched cruise missile for the first time over night is impossible.
> 
> 3- Iran has a long history of showing off fake products which were later clearly proved to be fake and there are many examples.
> 
> 4- The fourth and most important reason is the vague five seconds - long video of the launched cruise missile. It's very hard for our pitiful minds to believe that Iran which is very very much known for it's lust and love for showing off stuff, and nothing would have satisfied Iranian generals more than showing off such an achievement through super video cameras for several minutes, to show this with this shortness and vagueness.
> 
> I believe this is part of Iranian Mullahs internal recipes to calm down people from the deteriorating economic conditions.
> 
> The second possible reason is to cover the embarrassment the teeny tiny UAE causing through it's home-made top notch products at IDEX 2015.


This is bullshit, actually many friends said, this programe is under development.No need to have a submarine for launcing it, a sub-platform may laucnh it. What happend in your side is that your zionistic f@cking brain is erupting out its bullshit thesis.

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## haman10

@Serpentine

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## BLACKEAGLE

ALPfollowerOF373 said:


> This is bullshit, actually many friends said, this programe is under development. What happend in your side is that your zionistic f@cking brain is erupting out its bullshit thesis.


I don't listen to what you or your friends say. The Iranian official sources didn't say that as far as I know, and more presented the missile as a ready matured one.


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## ALPfollowerOF373

I try to be kind to you. My jordanian friend, No need to have a submarine for launcing it, a sub-platform may laucnh it.

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## Bratva

@Serpentine Is it confirm that it was launched from submarine ? If it is a speculation by Iranians than there is a possibility it was launched from pontoon until your subs gets retrofitted

I'm asking this because If we look at Indian Underwater missile launch tests, it is being tested from pontoon which is held at 50 meter depth. Until their nuke subs gets ready.


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## Dominance

The only *OFFICIAL *information is that 4 second video of the _thing_.

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## Serpentine

Bratva said:


> @Serpentine Is it confirm that it was launched from submarine ? If it is a speculation by Iranians than there is a possibility it was launched from pontoon until your subs gets retrofitted
> 
> I'm asking this because If we look at Indian Underwater missile launch tests, it is being tested from pontoon which is held at 50 meter depth. Until their nuke subs gets ready.


It's most probably launched from an underwater launch system, because we don't have any 'declared' submarine that can launch something like this, but one is under construction that is called Besat.


BLACKEAGLE said:


> It's for sure fake, because:
> 
> 1- Iran only has domestic submarines which their displacement varies between 10 - 1200 tons and these are basic submarines directed to throw mines in shallow waters especially in the Arabian gulf and have no capability of launching missiles.The other type of submarines Iran has is the Kilo class which definitely has no cruise missile capability.
> 
> 2- Showing submarine-launched cruise missile for the first time over night is impossible.
> 
> 3- Iran has a long history of showing off fake products which were later clearly proved to be fake and there are many examples.
> 
> 4- The fourth and most important reason is the vague five seconds - long video of the launched cruise missile. It's very hard for our pitiful minds to believe that Iran which is very very much known for it's lust and love for showing off stuff, and nothing would have satisfied Iranian generals more than showing off such an achievement through super video cameras for several minutes, to show this with this shortness and vagueness.
> 
> I believe this is part of Iranian Mullahs internal recipes to calm down people from the deteriorating economic conditions.
> 
> The second possible reason is to cover the embarrassment the teeny tiny UAE causing through it's home-made top notch products at IDEX 2015.



If you had slightest knowledge on military matters, you'd know that this missile can not necessarily be launched from a submarine and again if you can read, you'd see me and other members already said that it is most probably launched from a submerged launch system.

Now guess who should be embarrassed, Iran being embarrassed by 'home-made' products built by hundreds of paid foreigner specialists in UAE or you should be the one that is embarrassed? Well the answer is obvious.




@TurAr thread banned for posting low quality and off topic post again.

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## haman10

Serpentine said:


> It's most probably launched from a underwater launch system, because we don't have any 'declared' submarine that can launch something like this, but one is under construction that is called Besat.


Beside Be'sat which is "reportedly" under construction , there is Abbas submarine too .

it has 4000-5000 tonne displacement and is currently being developed (again for all we know) .

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## Serpentine

haman10 said:


> it has 4000-5000 tonne displacement and is currently being developed (again for all we know) .



Didn't hear anything about that new submarine, interesting if true.

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## ChineseTiger1986

haman10 said:


> Beside Be'sat which is "reportedly" under construction , there is Abbas submarine too .
> 
> it has 4000-5000 tonne displacement and is currently being developed (again for all we know) .



The AIP sub wit the fuel cell?

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## haman10

Serpentine said:


> Didn't hear anything about that new submarine, interesting if true.


@jack 86000 beat me to it and posted the details in the chill thread




ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The AIP sub wit the fuel cell?


This is all we know about it :

Abbas-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@SOHEIL knows more about this project i guess and has pics of it too

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## mister



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## The SC

*Submarines: Iranian Submarine Launched Missiles *
August 30, 2006: Iran test fired what appeared to be a Russian Klub-S (3M54) submarine launched anti-ship missile. Weighing two tons, and fired from a 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tube on a Kilo class sub, it has a 440 pound warhead. The anti-ship version speeds up to 3,000 kilometers an hour during its last minute or so of its flight, and has a range of 220 kilometers. There is also a land attack version, with a 300 kilometers range and an 880 pound warhead. 

Iran has three Kilo class subs, bought from Russia in the 1990s. China has a dozen on order. China already has some of its Kilos, and has received 3M54 missiles as well. So Iran could have gotten the 3M54s from Russia or China. It's unlikely Iran built their new missiles themselves. Even China, with far more resources, has not gotten far in this area. Much easier to make a deal to get them from Russia or China. Or even India, which also has the 3M54, although is not likely to sell them to Iran. 

It's also possible that Iran has an earlier Russian cruise missile launched from a torpedo tube (the "Granat"). This was a 1980s development, made obsolete by the recently developed 3M54 (nicknamed "Klub"). The Granat is not designed to hit ships at sea, but fixed targets on land, and with a nuclear warhead. 

The problem with the 3M54 is that it would make it easer for Iran to shut down oil exports from the Persian Gulf, at least for a while. China and India have economies heavily dependent on that oil, and would suffer if the oil supplies were interrupted. But Russia, as a major oil exporter, would benefit enormously if Iran shut off Persian Gulf oil for a while, and oil prices spiked. 

Submarines: Iranian Submarine Launched Missiles

This was 9 years ago, so it is nothing new to Iran apart from having built an indegenious submarine launched cruise missile.

Adding this to the most recent news:

* Iran is building submarine with missile-launching capability *
Tehran Times – Feb 18, 2015


The Iranian Navy is building a new hi-tech submarine with the capability of launching missiles and torpedoes, the Fars news agency reported on Wednesday./ The submarine, named Be’sat, which is now in designing stage will be 60 meters long and has the operational power for missions in the depth of 300 meters./ Iranian military experts plan to mount six launchers for firing torpedoes and marine cruise missiles on the new submarine and equip the subsurface vessel with mine-laying capability./ In recent years, Iran has made great achievements ...

Iran is building submarine with missile-launching capability - kodoom.com



One can speculate many things, first of which will be that the SLCM seen in the video was launched from a modified Iranian "Kilo" class submarine, or from a test bed platform for future inducement in the new Besa't submarine. Or even quite surprisingly from a Fateh submarine considering the vertical and angular openings on its top forefront_ there are too many of them to be just escape hatches._


Fateh:

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## Bratva

Serpentine said:


> It's most probably launched from an underwater launch system, because we don't have any 'declared' submarine that can launch something like this, but one is under construction that is called Besat.



Besat as in *بساط ?*


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## SOHEIL

Bratva said:


> Besat as in *بساط ?*



*بعثت*



BLACKEAGLE said:


> It's for sure fake, because:
> 
> 1- Iran only has domestic submarines which their displacement varies between 10 - 1200 tons and these are basic submarines directed to throw mines in shallow waters especially in the Arabian gulf and have no capability of launching missiles.The other type of submarines Iran has is the Kilo class which definitely has no cruise missile capability.
> 
> 2- Showing submarine-launched cruise missile for the first time over night is impossible.
> 
> 3- Iran has a long history of showing off fake products which were later clearly proved to be fake and there are many examples.
> 
> 4- The fourth and most important reason is the vague five seconds - long video of the launched cruise missile. It's very hard for our pitiful minds to believe that Iran which is very very much known for it's lust and love for showing off stuff, and nothing would have satisfied Iranian generals more than showing off such an achievement through super video cameras for several minutes, to show this with this shortness and vagueness.
> 
> I believe this is part of Iranian Mullahs internal recipes to calm down people from the deteriorating economic conditions.
> 
> The second possible reason is to cover the embarrassment the teeny tiny UAE causing through it's home-made top notch products at IDEX 2015.



Kiss my @$$ bro ... such a big load of bullshit ... 

Just have a little more patience ... then you can get some slaps on the arse !



haman10 said:


> @SOHEIL knows more about this project i guess and has pics of it too

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## The Last of us

What's very interesting is that they stated they will release the information about this missile in a few years. This should tell you guys something about what they show you. It means they have already been in service for few years.

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## Arminkh

500 said:


> Korea... When your ayatulas came to power Iran had MORE GNP per capita than Korea! Now Korea has 5.5 times more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> World Development Indicators-Google Public Data Explorer
> 
> So first u need to kick ur ayatulas then probably something will work in Iran.
> 
> 
> All US and Russia need to do is push the button. In 10 minutes there will be no Iran.


It is really entertaining to watch you. When you can ridicule the subject you do and when you can't you just start posting off topics. It's just a submarine lunched cruise missile. I know it is a big deal and you are shocked but get over it.



BLACKEAGLE said:


> It's for sure fake, because:
> 
> 1- Iran only has domestic submarines which their displacement varies between 10 - 1200 tons and these are basic submarines directed to throw mines in shallow waters especially in the Arabian gulf and have no capability of launching missiles.The other type of submarines Iran has is the Kilo class which definitely has no cruise missile capability.
> 
> 2- Showing submarine-launched cruise missile for the first time over night is impossible.
> 
> 3- Iran has a long history of showing off fake products which were later clearly proved to be fake and there are many examples.
> 
> 4- The fourth and most important reason is the vague five seconds - long video of the launched cruise missile. It's very hard for our pitiful minds to believe that Iran which is very very much known for it's lust and love for showing off stuff, and nothing would have satisfied Iranian generals more than showing off such an achievement through super video cameras for several minutes, to show this with this shortness and vagueness.
> 
> I believe this is part of Iranian Mullahs internal recipes to calm down people from the deteriorating economic conditions.
> 
> The second possible reason is to cover the embarrassment the teeny tiny UAE causing through it's home-made top notch products at IDEX 2015.


I can't decide who is more ridiculous, you or the one who has thanked you for your ridiculous comment. I can use similar reasoning like yours to prove all US carriers are fake.

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## lonelyman

congrats,it's not easy especially u guys still under sanction

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## yavar

BLACKEAGLE said:


> It's for sure fake, because:
> 
> 1- Iran only has domestic submarines which their displacement varies between 10 - 1200 tons and these are basic submarines directed to throw mines in shallow waters especially in the Arabian gulf and have no capability of launching missiles.The other type of submarines Iran has is the Kilo class which definitely has no cruise missile capability.
> 
> 2- Showing submarine-launched cruise missile for the first time over night is impossible.
> 
> 3- Iran has a long history of showing off fake products which were later clearly proved to be fake and there are many examples.
> 
> 4- The fourth and most important reason is the vague five seconds - long video of the launched cruise missile. It's very hard for our pitiful minds to believe that Iran which is very very much known for it's lust and love for showing off stuff, and nothing would have satisfied Iranian generals more than showing off such an achievement through super video cameras for several minutes, to show this with this shortness and vagueness.
> 
> I believe this is part of Iranian Mullahs internal recipes to calm down people from the deteriorating economic conditions.
> 
> The second possible reason is to cover the embarrassment the teeny tiny UAE causing through it's home-made top notch products at IDEX 2015.



he doesn't believe in your conspiracy theory



quote " lots of them " unquote

watch from 14:00

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## scythian500

500 said:


> Korea... When your ayatulas came to power Iran had MORE GNP per capita than Korea! Now Korea has 5.5 times more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> World Development Indicators-Google Public Data Explorer
> 
> So first u need to kick ur ayatulas then probably something will work in Iran.
> 
> 
> All US and Russia need to do is push the button. In 10 minutes there will be no Iran.



*ONCE AND FOR ALL I have to write a response to these ignorant mercenaries of dark forces...Please read it as it is from my heart....*

Your words are as unrelated, untrue and arrogant as your prime Minister excuses to grab daddy USA to attack Iran (you know what I mean. Israel has nukes ready to fire but says there is a danger of Nuke Proliferation in ME... come one!!!). But just in order to illustrate how Iran situation is well beyond expectations to other members (not you...as somebody who pretend to be sleep can,t be awaken!);

There are at least 4 conditions to have for a country to become advanced;
1- Educated Workforce, Investment resources and political and social stability and a National WILL.
2- Having access to latest know-how shared by other developed nations. Or just master latest know hows by himself.
3- Not being under global, full-scale sanctions, or in other words, having access to export markets.
4- Never be a subject of a full scale war and destruction (as Iran was for 8 years recently)

OK, now let us compare Korea with Iran using above mentioned CONDITIONS:
1- Korea had and has Educated Workforce, Immense Foreign Investment, Social and Political stability and a National will. Iran had and has Educated Workforce, *Almost No foreign Investment*, Social and Political stability (except early after-revolutions years)
2- Korea had and still has the latest of Technology needed for their development (due to absolute submission to its owners). Iran never had or has any serious technological support from any country. Neither from enemies or even its so called FRIENDS!!. Iran has no choice but to master know-how either by studying available samples (reverse-engineering) or by *only relying on his young talented scientists*. and this is exactly what he does...
3- Korea not only never been under full scale sanctions but also had full parental support from Japan and West. Iran has been and still are under the most harsh, unprecedented full scale *sanctions for 36 years now*.
4- Korea had no war imposed on her since she decided to develop herself seriously. Iran started with a devastating revolution that teared all social and political systems apart and left Iranian industry empty-handed with empty factories who their owners decided to leave country. Despite all this, West, East and their ruthless puppet, Saddam Hussein (simply whole world), decided to impose a full scale war on Iran, with the assumption that Iran is week due to revolution and will be finished in a week as Saddam used to promised his people that he will march in Tehran in a week!! Despite heroic defense that young (sometimes children) Iranians showed to the world, Iran has suffered from something between 300000 to 1 million casualties who were Iranian minds and hands to build Iran, over $2 trillion financial loss and thousands of factories, universities and houses destroyed. Iranian economy only reached its pre-revolution GDP Per capital level in 2003, after reconstructing its destroyed infrastructure. Iran only started to see positive growth after years of rebuilding the damages imposed by war.

So, a sane man would easily conclude that there were never a fair competition between Iran and other developed nations.


Despite all these unwanted, devastating elements, let,s see how Iran is advanced and developed now;

To show how advanced a country is, you have to include at least 3 different indicators in your study;

1- *How well the quality of life for its citizens is?*. To show this economists use HDI (Human Development Index) that take various factors into account, ranging from per capital income to the level of education and health infrastructure.
Korea managed to improve itself impressively during recent decades by jumping from LOW HDI to VERY HIGH in almost 40 years. To better grasp this listing you must know that only 49 countries are among very high HDI countries. Korea is currently 15th and well above Japan, France, Austria, Italy and Spain and many others. Italy is 26th and Portugal is 41th in this list. Iran is a country that occupies a rank in Higher-half of HIGH HDI countries. All countries with ranks between 49 and 101 are listed as having HIGH Human Development Index. Iran is 76th in HDI list next to Turkey, Mexico, Malaysia or even Russia and well above Brasil, Ukraine, Serbia, China and Georgia. The conclusion is that despite all the situations that Iran impelled to go through, Iran is still considered a country with HIGH quality of life and developed.

2- *How much GDP a country generates by making products or services; excluding natural reserve exports?
*
Before going through this is need to clarify one important concept. A globally accepted way to show how much worth of products & services being produced in one given country is to take the purchasing power of that country into account. Because China, i,e., can produce a given car for less than 5000 dollars while the VERY SAME car can be produced with $15000 in Western Europe. This is why, when the quality of life and the exact worth of products is aimed, economists only take GDP (PPP) numbers into account. This is exactly why, a Norwegian with $60000 per capital is treated like they only make $40000 when they compare it with American per capital. This means a monthly income of 18000 Rupees in India, may only be exchangeable to $300 when you need dollars to go abroad, but at the same time, the amount of products and services you can buy with this 18000 Rupees inside India is at least 2.5 times more. This is because you can buy a same quality McDonald for 120 Rupees or $2 in India while the same quality sandwich is priced at least $5 in America. So, GDP per capital PPP is the real indicator of your income and not its exchange ability as exchange rates are fluctuating every second.

In this regard, Iranian GDP is 1.245 Trillion and Korea's is 1.640 Trillion. This shows Korea total economy is only 30% larger than Iran. Korea per capital income is $32500 while Iran's per capital is $16200. This shows Korea's real income is exactly twice than Iran's and not 5.5 times as you mentioned it.
List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remember this $16200 income achieved despite all the dark disasters came down on Iranian's head in last 36 years and still coming. If there were no 8 years full scale war imposed on Iran and had no sanctions then it would be possible to say that Iran could have been in par if not better than Korea.

3- *How much that country is advanced with latest technologies in High-Tech fields*. How much good is at Biotech, Medicine, Nano, Heavy Industries, Metallurgy, Metal Processing, Casting, Composites, Space tech, Missiles, Ships, Submarines, Tanks, Ammunition, UAVs, Radars, electronics, Food processing, Construction material, Petrochemical tech, Dams, Power plants (Gas, Coil, Earth-thermal, Sun, Wind turbines, etc), Lasers, communication networks, Cyber and Cyber warfare power, IT, and other fields.

Korea is pretty advanced in some of above but not in all fields. Iran is very advanced in many of those fields and somehow advanced on others. This means both countries have necessary science and technology infrastructure to be called an Advanced Country.

So, here all members of this forum, I invite to be fair for once. Imagine you are a judge. Does Iran need to change its current system or keep going the way it does now? We need to also consider the fact that, all Iranian efforts in last couple of decades are just blossoming. It is not over. Iran has just emerged as a worthy nation and Iranians from their leaders down to individuals are determined to continue this progress. There are lots of flaws in Iranian progress too. But who does n,t???

Take a look at these links. These explain better why Iran is not only a successful country but also may be called as super power soon:
Iran
Iran: The Unrecognized Superpower? | Hammering Shield
The New Islamic Superpower - theTrumpet.com
US expresses fears Iran could be the future ‘cyber superpower’ | HumanIPO
Meet the New Science Superpower…Iran | Pasco Phronesis
Iran: The Gulf’s New Superpower? | Al Akhbar English
Iran a Rising Star of Middle East - Khaama Press (KP) | Afghan News Agency
Why Iran Is the Country to Watch in 2014 | Alternet


Back to your bull-milk.* Iran needs to kick their ayatollahs out so the country start working!!!*
Ayatollahs are from Iran and among Iranians. They are less than 1 percent of Iranians and neither of them are among Iranian young scientists who built this country. Their record has both negative and positive impact on what Iran is now. But I,m from those who believe Iran has a huge debt to Ayatollah Khamenei. He is the one who can put Iranian potentials into action. This is why, West's number one enemy is that guy. Because he is effective and smart.

Iranians memers should always know that the process of Becoming a super power who is independent and can provide a more proud future and defend its people rights on this wild jungle called world, takes so many sacrifices. You have two options. You can easily obey what ever world masters order you and live a happy life, but always caught by their will or to stand on your feet, use your own brain and fists and take your rights from them and draw you own desired destiny. I don,t know other members here, but I personally rather die of hunger than not having my pride or some other country wants to order me to act as they like.

*All US and Russia need to do is push the button. In 10 minutes there will be no Iran*

This simple expression of yours shows how you Occupied Palestinians are in nature. Thanks God our life is not in any way connected to yours!!! Maybe US and Russia like to see apocalypse happening so they do *this fantasy of your.*. kid!
*
Btw, * I was watching your prime minister speech in US congress. He looked like some orphan guy whose his parents don't listen to him how intense he tries!!! Obama is a more smart guy as it seems. He said, he does not care about BIBI's childish words!!

I laughed hard after a while tonight when I heard Netanyaho says, Iran is ISIS!!. when he brought dozens of reasons that Iran might build bombs in *future, and it is dangerous for ME and WORLD while he already possess hundreds of nukes himself!!!
I laughed hard when * he said, with Iran having nukes, an ARM RACE for nuke would happen in ME!!! Does anybody not know that Occupied Palestine is the first Middle Eastern country to acquire NUKES!!!???
He said, don,t be friend with Iran because he is the enemy of your enemy (ISIS)!!!!
He said, USA please love me!!!!! LOVE MEEEEEE....
He called Iran a TERRORIST STATE!!! I laughed even harder here as I have seen a Western Documentary about this specific subject, it explained how it is a normal policy in Occupied Palestine and MOSAD to pursue the enemies of state and terror them in other countries. They were talking about thousands of terrors MOSAD committed by EZRAEEL since 1950 and still doing.
They are masters of terror of individuals around the world. Even the netanyaho himself was a soldier in assassination units of Occupied Palestine government. Most their leaders have a personal record of terror....They are master of killing innocent children and women instead of facing warriors face to face like a man....

I was laughing hard but a very bitter laugh... if you know what I mean... I am very sorry for the world that I,m living at, A world that a Terrorist state that is no different from savage ISISs, sticks everything is true with himself to a mostly victimized nation like IRAN... and even harsher is when you see, American senators were standing applauding him after every word he said!!!

We Iranians decided to draw our future by our hands... anyone who is our friends will join us... those who are enemies... well... they are enemies... so let them do what they do...They are meant to be the bad guys... Those who understand right and always are fair to their friends and even fairer to their enemies are happy ones and always are welcomed by us Iranians.... Long live Peace... Long live righteousness... Down with Ignorance and Cruelty.... Down with intentional stupidity....

Sorry for the looooooong essay...but I needed to respond this kid... this paid mercenary for dark dorces..

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## Arminkh

scythian500 said:


> *ONCE AND FOR ALL I have to write a response to these ignorant mercenaries of dark forces...Please read it as it is from my heart....*
> 
> Your words are as unrelated, untrue and arrogant as your prime Minister excuses to grab daddy USA to attack Iran (you know what I mean. Israel has nukes ready to fire but says there is a danger of Nuke Proliferation in ME... come one!!!). But just in order to illustrate how Iran situation is well beyond expectations to other members (not you...as somebody who pretend to be sleep can,t be awaken!);
> 
> There are at least 4 conditions to have for a country to become advanced;
> 1- Educated Workforce, Investment resources and political and social stability and a National WILL.
> 2- Having access to latest know-how shared by other developed nations. Or just master latest know hows by himself.
> 3- Not being under global, full-scale sanctions, or in other words, having access to export markets.
> 4- Never be a subject of a full scale war and destruction (as Iran was for 8 years recently)
> 
> OK, now let us compare Korea with Iran using above mentioned CONDITIONS:
> 1- Korea had and has Educated Workforce, Immense Foreign Investment, Social and Political stability and a National will. Iran had and has Educated Workforce, *Almost No foreign Investment*, Social and Political stability (except early after-revolutions years back)
> 2- Korea had and still has the latest of Technology needed for their development (due to absolute submission to its owners). Iran never had or has any worthy technological support from any one. Either from enemies or so called FRIENDS!!. Iran has no choice but to master know-how either by studying available samples (reverse-engineering) or by *only relying on his young talented scientists*.
> 3- Korea not only never been under full scale sanctions but also had full parental support from Japan and West. Iran has been and still are under the most harsh, unprecedented full scaled *sanctions for 36 years now*.
> 4- Korea had no war imposed on her since she decided to develop herself seriously. Iran started with a devastating revolution that teared all social and political systems and left Iranian industry left handed with empty factories who their owners decided to leave country. Despite all this, West, East and their ruthless puppet, Saddam Hussein (simply whole world), decided to impose a full scaled war on Iran, with the assumption that Iran is week due to revolution and will be finished in a week as Saddam used to promised his people that he will march in Tehran in a week!! Despite heroic defense that young (sometimes children) Iranians showed to the world, at least, Iran has suffered from something between 300000 to 1 million casualties who were Iranian minds and hands to build Iran, over $2 trillion financial loss and thousands of factories, universities and houses destroyed. Iranian economy only regained its pre-revolution GDP Per capital only in 2003, after reconstructing its destroyed infrastructure. Iran only started to see positive growth after years of rebuilding the damages imposed by war.
> 
> So, some sane man would easily say, there never been a fair competition between Iran and other developed nations.
> 
> 
> Despite all these unwanted, devastating elements, let,s see how Iran is advanced and developed;
> 
> To show how advanced a country is, you have to include at least 3 different indicators in your study;
> 
> 1- *How well the quality of life for its citizens is?*. To show this economists use HDI (Human Development Index) that take various factors into account, ranging from per capital income to the level of education and health infrastructure.
> Korea managed to improve impressively during recent decades by jumping from LOW HDI to VERY HIGH in only 30 years. To better grasp this listing you must know that only 49 countries are among very high HDI countries. Korea is currently 15th and well above Japan, France, Austria, Italy and Spain and many others. Italy is 26th and Portugal is 41th in this list. Iran is a country that occupies a rank in Higher-half of HIGH HDI countries. All countries with ranks between 49 and 101 are listed as having HIGH Human Development Index. Iran is 76th in HDI list next to Turkey, Mexico, Malaysia or even Russia and well above Brasil, Ukraine, Serbia, China and Georgia. The conclusion is that despite all the situations that Iran impelled to go through, Iran is still considered a country with HIGH quality of life and developed.
> 
> 2- *How much GDP a country generates by making products or services; excluding natural reserve exports?
> *
> Before going through this is need to clarify one important concept. A globally accepted way to show how much worth of products & services being produced in one given country is to take the purchasing power of that country into account. Because China, i,e., can produce a given car for less than 5000 dollars while the VERY SAME car can be produced with $15000 in Western Europe. This is why, when the quality of life and the exact worth of products is aimed, economists only take GDP (PPP) numbers into account. This is exactly why, a Norwegian with $60000 per capital is treated like they only make $40000 when they compare it with American per capital. This means a monthly income of 18000 Rupees in India, may only be exchangeable to $300 when you need dollars to go abroad, but at the same time, the amount of products and services you can buy with this 18000 Rupees inside India is at least 2.5 times more. This is because you can buy a same quality McDonald for 120 Rupees or $2 in India while the same quality sandwich is priced at least $5 in America. So, GDP per capital PPP is the real indicator of your income and not its exchange ability as exchange rates are fluctuating every second.
> 
> In this regard, Iranian GDP is 1.245 Trillion and Korea's is 1.640 Trillion. This shows Korea total economy is only 30% larger than Iran. Korea per capital income is $32500 while Iran's per capital is $16200. This shows Korea's real income is exactly twice than Iran's and not 5.5 times as you mentioned it.
> List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Remember this $16200 income achieved despite all the dark disasters came down on Iranian's head in last 36 years and still coming. If there were no 8 years full scale war imposed on Iran and had no sanctions then it would be possible to say that Iran could have been in par if not better than Korea.
> 
> 3- *How much that country is advanced with latest technologies in High-Tech fields*. How much good is at Biotech, Medicine, Nano, Heavy Industries, Metallurgy, Metal Processing, Casting, Composites, Space tech, Missiles, Ships, Submarines, Tanks, Ammunition, UAVs, Radars, electronics, Food processing, Construction material, Petrochemical tech, Dams, Power plants (Gas, Coil, Earth-thermal, Sun, Wind turbines, etc), Lasers, communication networks, Cyber and Cyber warfare power, IT, and other fields.
> 
> Korea is pretty advanced in some of above but not in all fields. Iran is very advanced in many of those fields and somehow advanced on others. This means both countries have necessary science and technology infrastructure to be called an Advanced Country.
> 
> So, here all members of this forum, I invite to be fair for once. Imagine you are a judge. Does Iran need to change its current system or keep going the way it does now? We need to also consider the fact that, all Iranian efforts in last couple of decades are just blossoming. It is not over. Iran has just emerged as a worthy nation and Iranians from their leaders down to individuals are determined to continue this progress. There are lots of flaws in Iranian progress too. But who does n,t???
> 
> Take a look at these links. These explain better why Iran is not only a successful country but also may be called as super power soon:
> Iran
> Iran: The Unrecognized Superpower? | Hammering Shield
> The New Islamic Superpower - theTrumpet.com
> US expresses fears Iran could be the future ‘cyber superpower’ | HumanIPO
> Meet the New Science Superpower…Iran | Pasco Phronesis
> Iran: The Gulf’s New Superpower? | Al Akhbar English
> Iran a Rising Star of Middle East - Khaama Press (KP) | Afghan News Agency
> Why Iran Is the Country to Watch in 2014 | Alternet
> 
> 
> Back to your bull-milk.* Iran needs to kick their ayatollahs out so the country start working!!!*
> Ayatollahs are from Iran and among Iranians. They are less than 1 percent of Iranians and neither of them are among Iranian young scientists who built this country. Their record has both negative and positive impact on what Iran is now. But I,m from those who believe Iran has a huge debt to Ayatollah Khamenei. He is the one who can put Iranian potentials into action. This is why, West's number one enemy is that guy. Because he is effective and smart.
> 
> Iranians memers should always know that the process of Becoming a super power who is independent and can provide a more proud future and defend its people rights on this wild jungle called world, takes so many sacrifices. You have two options. You can easily obey what ever world masters order you and live a happy life, but always caught by their will or to stand on your feet, use your own brain and fists and take your rights from them and draw you own desired destiny. I don,t know other members here, but I personally rather die of hunger than not having my pride or some other country wants to order me to act as they like.
> 
> *All US and Russia need to do is push the button. In 10 minutes there will be no Iran*
> 
> This simple expression of yours shows how you Occupied Palestinians are in nature. Thanks God our life is not in any way connected to yours!!! Maybe US and Russia like to see apocalypse happening so they do *this fantasy of your.*. kid!
> *
> Btw, * I was watching your prime minister speech in US congress. He looked like some orphan guy whose his parents don't listen to him how intense he tries!!! Obama is a more smart guy as it seems. He said, he does not care about BIBI's childish words!!
> 
> I laughed hard after a while tonight when I heard Netanyaho says, Iran is ISIS!!. when he brought dozens of reasons that Iran might build bombs in *future, and it is dangerous for ME and WORLD while he already possess hundreds of nukes himself!!!
> I laughed hard when * he said, with Iran having nukes, an ARM RACE for nuke would happen in ME!!! Does anybody not know that Occupied Palestine is the first Middle Eastern country to acquire NUKES!!!???
> He said, don,t be friend with Iran because he is the enemy of your enemy (ISIS)!!!!
> He said, USA please love me!!!!! LOVE MEEEEEE....
> He called Iran a TERRORIST STATE!!! I laughed even harder here as I have seen a Documentary on that explained how normal policy it is in Occupied Palestine and MOSAD to pursue the enemies of state and terror them in other countries. They were showing thousands of terrors MOSAD committed since 1950 and still doing.
> They are master of terror of individuals around the world. Even the netanyaho himself was a soldier in assassination units of Occupied Palestine government. Most their leaders have a personal record of terror....They are master of killing innocent children and women instead of facing warriors face to face like a man....
> 
> I was laughing hard but a very bitter laugh... if you know what I mean... I am very sorry for the world that I,m living at, A world that a Terrorist state that is no different from savage ISISs, sticks everything is true with himself to a mostly victimized nation like IRAN... and even harsher is when you see, American senators were standing applauding him after every word he said!!!
> 
> We Iranians decided to draw our future by our hands... anyone who is our friends will join us... those who are enemies... well... they are enemies... so let them do what they do...They are meant to be the bad guys... Those who understand right and always are fair to their friends and even fairer to their enemies are happy ones and always are welcomed by us Iranians.... Long live Peace... Long live righteousness... Down with Ignorance and Cruelty.... Down with intentional stupidity....
> 
> Sorry for the looooooong essay...but I needed to respond this kid... this paid mercenary for dark dorces..



You are just wasting your time. Just ignore him/her or whatever in between.

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## scythian500

Arminkh said:


> You are just wasting your time. Just ignore him/her or whatever in between.


The one who pretends to be sleep or one who is a paid mercenary can never be convinced with logic...but I wanted to explain this repeated non-sense to other members who might have the same in mind....

What in world is based on fairness and logic that this little paid mercenary be?

I wonder why the Occupied Palestine leaders wasting their money on hiring this kind of kids to publish their non sense to world. Although, when the prime minister of them is like what we have seen tonight in congress, I can,t complain about this one!!! Dark Force have their nature on their title... they are DARK FORCES... they need to be like this or they are not happy...



haman10 said:


> Maybe .
> 
> But for a regime like you its like this : all "russia , US and iran" need to do is pushing a button .
> 
> 10 mins tops and there will be no zionist regime


It,s not a "maybe" my friend... it is same kind of bull milk she/he drinks every morning... I explained it scientifically in page 13..if you are patient enough to read that BOOOOOK!!

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## Minute by Minute

@500,
i remember reading something about a parade in Iran and a member of irmilitaryfourm being disapointed, that our soldiers are not marching like the chinese IN total sync... I often think about this and pray, that we will never have an army, that can march in total sync. We should fear the day it happens and hopefully it never will. What every real honest and knowledgable intellectual in the World understands is, that the entire World system is being based on removing "humanity" out of the human race. It may be done in the name of democracy, PROGRESS, human rights or freedom, but it is being done every moment of every day. We should never compare ourselves to the West or the rest. Our existens and mission in life is not the same and when it comes to all the glitter of the rest of the World, it is worth nothing, if IT MEANS LEAVING OUR IMAM ALL ALONE.
Other than that, you have a big and good Heart. Thank you!

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## yavar

Iran Persian Gulf missile hit target ship during 9th Great prophet wargame

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## yavar

Iran IRGC Navy Commander Ali Fadavi our 'Strategic' Weapons has Deterred America

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## yavar

Iran IRGC Zalzal - Raad 307 guided rocket in 9th Great prophet wargame

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## The SC

scythian500 said:


> *ONCE AND FOR ALL I have to write a response to these ignorant mercenaries of dark forces...Please read it as it is from my heart....*
> 
> Your words are as unrelated, untrue and arrogant as your prime Minister excuses to grab daddy USA to attack Iran (you know what I mean. Israel has nukes ready to fire but says there is a danger of Nuke Proliferation in ME... come one!!!). But just in order to illustrate how Iran situation is well beyond expectations to other members (not you...as somebody who pretend to be sleep can,t be awaken!);
> 
> There are at least 4 conditions to have for a country to become advanced;
> 1- Educated Workforce, Investment resources and political and social stability and a National WILL.
> 2- Having access to latest know-how shared by other developed nations. Or just master latest know hows by himself.
> 3- Not being under global, full-scale sanctions, or in other words, having access to export markets.
> 4- Never be a subject of a full scale war and destruction (as Iran was for 8 years recently)
> 
> OK, now let us compare Korea with Iran using above mentioned CONDITIONS:
> 1- Korea had and has Educated Workforce, Immense Foreign Investment, Social and Political stability and a National will. Iran had and has Educated Workforce, *Almost No foreign Investment*, Social and Political stability (except early after-revolutions years)
> 2- Korea had and still has the latest of Technology needed for their development (due to absolute submission to its owners). Iran never had or has any serious technological support from any country. Neither from enemies or even its so called FRIENDS!!. Iran has no choice but to master know-how either by studying available samples (reverse-engineering) or by *only relying on his young talented scientists*. and this is exactly what he does...
> 3- Korea not only never been under full scale sanctions but also had full parental support from Japan and West. Iran has been and still are under the most harsh, unprecedented full scale *sanctions for 36 years now*.
> 4- Korea had no war imposed on her since she decided to develop herself seriously. Iran started with a devastating revolution that teared all social and political systems apart and left Iranian industry empty-handed with empty factories who their owners decided to leave country. Despite all this, West, East and their ruthless puppet, Saddam Hussein (simply whole world), decided to impose a full scale war on Iran, with the assumption that Iran is week due to revolution and will be finished in a week as Saddam used to promised his people that he will march in Tehran in a week!! Despite heroic defense that young (sometimes children) Iranians showed to the world, Iran has suffered from something between 300000 to 1 million casualties who were Iranian minds and hands to build Iran, over $2 trillion financial loss and thousands of factories, universities and houses destroyed. Iranian economy only reached its pre-revolution GDP Per capital level in 2003, after reconstructing its destroyed infrastructure. Iran only started to see positive growth after years of rebuilding the damages imposed by war.
> 
> So, a sane man would easily conclude that there were never a fair competition between Iran and other developed nations.
> 
> 
> Despite all these unwanted, devastating elements, let,s see how Iran is advanced and developed now;
> 
> To show how advanced a country is, you have to include at least 3 different indicators in your study;
> 
> 1- *How well the quality of life for its citizens is?*. To show this economists use HDI (Human Development Index) that take various factors into account, ranging from per capital income to the level of education and health infrastructure.
> Korea managed to improve itself impressively during recent decades by jumping from LOW HDI to VERY HIGH in almost 40 years. To better grasp this listing you must know that only 49 countries are among very high HDI countries. Korea is currently 15th and well above Japan, France, Austria, Italy and Spain and many others. Italy is 26th and Portugal is 41th in this list. Iran is a country that occupies a rank in Higher-half of HIGH HDI countries. All countries with ranks between 49 and 101 are listed as having HIGH Human Development Index. Iran is 76th in HDI list next to Turkey, Mexico, Malaysia or even Russia and well above Brasil, Ukraine, Serbia, China and Georgia. The conclusion is that despite all the situations that Iran impelled to go through, Iran is still considered a country with HIGH quality of life and developed.
> 
> 2- *How much GDP a country generates by making products or services; excluding natural reserve exports?
> *
> Before going through this is need to clarify one important concept. A globally accepted way to show how much worth of products & services being produced in one given country is to take the purchasing power of that country into account. Because China, i,e., can produce a given car for less than 5000 dollars while the VERY SAME car can be produced with $15000 in Western Europe. This is why, when the quality of life and the exact worth of products is aimed, economists only take GDP (PPP) numbers into account. This is exactly why, a Norwegian with $60000 per capital is treated like they only make $40000 when they compare it with American per capital. This means a monthly income of 18000 Rupees in India, may only be exchangeable to $300 when you need dollars to go abroad, but at the same time, the amount of products and services you can buy with this 18000 Rupees inside India is at least 2.5 times more. This is because you can buy a same quality McDonald for 120 Rupees or $2 in India while the same quality sandwich is priced at least $5 in America. So, GDP per capital PPP is the real indicator of your income and not its exchange ability as exchange rates are fluctuating every second.
> 
> In this regard, Iranian GDP is 1.245 Trillion and Korea's is 1.640 Trillion. This shows Korea total economy is only 30% larger than Iran. Korea per capital income is $32500 while Iran's per capital is $16200. This shows Korea's real income is exactly twice than Iran's and not 5.5 times as you mentioned it.
> List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Remember this $16200 income achieved despite all the dark disasters came down on Iranian's head in last 36 years and still coming. If there were no 8 years full scale war imposed on Iran and had no sanctions then it would be possible to say that Iran could have been in par if not better than Korea.
> 
> 3- *How much that country is advanced with latest technologies in High-Tech fields*. How much good is at Biotech, Medicine, Nano, Heavy Industries, Metallurgy, Metal Processing, Casting, Composites, Space tech, Missiles, Ships, Submarines, Tanks, Ammunition, UAVs, Radars, electronics, Food processing, Construction material, Petrochemical tech, Dams, Power plants (Gas, Coil, Earth-thermal, Sun, Wind turbines, etc), Lasers, communication networks, Cyber and Cyber warfare power, IT, and other fields.
> 
> Korea is pretty advanced in some of above but not in all fields. Iran is very advanced in many of those fields and somehow advanced on others. This means both countries have necessary science and technology infrastructure to be called an Advanced Country.
> 
> So, here all members of this forum, I invite to be fair for once. Imagine you are a judge. Does Iran need to change its current system or keep going the way it does now? We need to also consider the fact that, all Iranian efforts in last couple of decades are just blossoming. It is not over. Iran has just emerged as a worthy nation and Iranians from their leaders down to individuals are determined to continue this progress. There are lots of flaws in Iranian progress too. But who does n,t???
> 
> Take a look at these links. These explain better why Iran is not only a successful country but also may be called as super power soon:
> Iran
> Iran: The Unrecognized Superpower? | Hammering Shield
> The New Islamic Superpower - theTrumpet.com
> US expresses fears Iran could be the future ‘cyber superpower’ | HumanIPO
> Meet the New Science Superpower…Iran | Pasco Phronesis
> Iran: The Gulf’s New Superpower? | Al Akhbar English
> Iran a Rising Star of Middle East - Khaama Press (KP) | Afghan News Agency
> Why Iran Is the Country to Watch in 2014 | Alternet
> 
> 
> Back to your bull-milk.* Iran needs to kick their ayatollahs out so the country start working!!!*
> Ayatollahs are from Iran and among Iranians. They are less than 1 percent of Iranians and neither of them are among Iranian young scientists who built this country. Their record has both negative and positive impact on what Iran is now. But I,m from those who believe Iran has a huge debt to Ayatollah Khamenei. He is the one who can put Iranian potentials into action. This is why, West's number one enemy is that guy. Because he is effective and smart.
> 
> Iranians memers should always know that the process of Becoming a super power who is independent and can provide a more proud future and defend its people rights on this wild jungle called world, takes so many sacrifices. You have two options. You can easily obey what ever world masters order you and live a happy life, but always caught by their will or to stand on your feet, use your own brain and fists and take your rights from them and draw you own desired destiny. I don,t know other members here, but I personally rather die of hunger than not having my pride or some other country wants to order me to act as they like.
> 
> *All US and Russia need to do is push the button. In 10 minutes there will be no Iran*
> 
> This simple expression of yours shows how you Occupied Palestinians are in nature. Thanks God our life is not in any way connected to yours!!! Maybe US and Russia like to see apocalypse happening so they do *this fantasy of your.*. kid!
> *
> Btw, * I was watching your prime minister speech in US congress. He looked like some orphan guy whose his parents don't listen to him how intense he tries!!! Obama is a more smart guy as it seems. He said, he does not care about BIBI's childish words!!
> 
> I laughed hard after a while tonight when I heard Netanyaho says, Iran is ISIS!!. when he brought dozens of reasons that Iran might build bombs in *future, and it is dangerous for ME and WORLD while he already possess hundreds of nukes himself!!!
> I laughed hard when * he said, with Iran having nukes, an ARM RACE for nuke would happen in ME!!! Does anybody not know that Occupied Palestine is the first Middle Eastern country to acquire NUKES!!!???
> He said, don,t be friend with Iran because he is the enemy of your enemy (ISIS)!!!!
> He said, USA please love me!!!!! LOVE MEEEEEE....
> He called Iran a TERRORIST STATE!!! I laughed even harder here as I have seen a Western Documentary about this specific subject, it explained how it is a normal policy in Occupied Palestine and MOSAD to pursue the enemies of state and terror them in other countries. They were talking about thousands of terrors MOSAD committed by EZRAEEL since 1950 and still doing.
> They are masters of terror of individuals around the world. Even the netanyaho himself was a soldier in assassination units of Occupied Palestine government. Most their leaders have a personal record of terror....They are master of killing innocent children and women instead of facing warriors face to face like a man....
> 
> I was laughing hard but a very bitter laugh... if you know what I mean... I am very sorry for the world that I,m living at, A world that a Terrorist state that is no different from savage ISISs, sticks everything is true with himself to a mostly victimized nation like IRAN... and even harsher is when you see, American senators were standing applauding him after every word he said!!!
> 
> We Iranians decided to draw our future by our hands... anyone who is our friends will join us... those who are enemies... well... they are enemies... so let them do what they do...They are meant to be the bad guys... Those who understand right and always are fair to their friends and even fairer to their enemies are happy ones and always are welcomed by us Iranians.... Long live Peace... Long live righteousness... Down with Ignorance and Cruelty.... Down with intentional stupidity....
> 
> Sorry for the looooooong essay...but I needed to respond this kid... this paid mercenary for dark dorces..



Well said. It proves the power of real Islam when applied righteously... as it should in other Muslim countries.
Congratulations to Iran on all its achievements, the future is bright despite the obstacles.

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## yavar

Iran IRGC Navy Commander Ali Fadavi our 'Strategic' Weapons has Deterred America

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## scythian500

BLACKEAGLE said:


> It's for sure fake, because:
> 
> 1- Iran only has domestic submarines which their displacement varies between 10 - 1200 tons and these are basic submarines directed to throw mines in shallow waters especially in the Arabian gulf and have no capability of launching missiles.The other type of submarines Iran has is the Kilo class which definitely has no cruise missile capability.
> 
> 2- Showing submarine-launched cruise missile for the first time over night is impossible.
> 
> 3- Iran has a long history of showing off fake products which were later clearly proved to be fake and there are many examples.
> 
> 4- The fourth and most important reason is the vague five seconds - long video of the launched cruise missile. It's very hard for our pitiful minds to believe that Iran which is very very much known for it's lust and love for showing off stuff, and nothing would have satisfied Iranian generals more than showing off such an achievement through super video cameras for several minutes, to show this with this shortness and vagueness.
> 
> I believe this is part of Iranian Mullahs internal recipes to calm down people from the deteriorating economic conditions.
> 
> The second possible reason is to cover the embarrassment the teeny tiny UAE causing through it's home-made top notch products at IDEX 2015.


We have a saying for guys and countries like yours...
"Ye kalame ham az madare aroos" or "Baz 2 ta fil ba ham sohbat kardan ye moorche khodesho ghati kard" or "Moorche chie ke kale pachash bashe"

Meaning: When all Iranian made weapons are FAKE so why you Arabs Yellowed your pants???

Imagine a so called NATION that gets their panties YELLOW and WET or BOTH together, when Iran showcases its FAKE showoffs ... let,s hope non of Iranian made weapons are REAL!!!

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## Arminkh

yavar said:


> Iran IRGC Zalzal - Raad 307 guided rocket in 9th Great prophet wargame


Are Zalzal and Fath the same? I thought, Zalzal was unguided.

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## yavar

Arminkh said:


> Are Zalzal and Fath the same? I thought, Zalzal was unguided.


NO 

it got some similarities . but I Zalzal - Road 307 guidance is very cheap and it only keep rocket in straight path but it cannot maneuver like Fateh missile

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## yavar

*FOR FOOLS*


*Fmr DIA Head* 

quote " Iran is global threat because of the ballistic missiles capabilities nothing else . the range of some of capabilities they have " unquote

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## Gold Eagle

*Iran has unveiled a new long-range land-to-land cruise missile, named Soumar, which has been designed and manufactured by domestic experts.*

The new state-of-the-art high-precision missile was unveiled during a Sunday ceremony in Tehran with senior Iranian officials, including Defense Minister Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan, in attendance.

During the ceremony, Deqhan said Soumar “enjoys different characteristics in terms of range and pinpoint accuracy in comparison with the previous products.”

Such important achievements, which have been made through research and innovation based on the needs of Iranian Armed Forces, are “considered as crucial steps toward increasing the country’s defense and deterrence might,” Dehqan added.

The Iranian defense chief stressed that Tehran aims to promote the range, precision and the destructive power of such type of missiles in the upgraded versions, which are to be unveiled in the next Iranian calendar year (starting on March 21).

Dehqan also announced that the long-range ballistic missiles of Qadr and Qiam have been delivered in mass to the Aerospace Division of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC).

During the occasion, Commander of the IRGC Aerospace Division Brigadier General Amirali Hajizadeh (shown below) hailed Iran’s great defense capabilities, adding that Western sanctions have failed to disrupt the progress the Islamic Republic’s defense program.

Hajizadeh also warned that Terhan will never put to negotiation the country’s defense capabilities, including the development of its ballistic missiles.

On Saturday, a senior Iranian commander said the country is to unveil a long-range missile defense system, connected to the S-200 missile system.

According to Iran's Khatam al-Anbiya Air Defense Base Brigadier General Farzad Esmaili, the Talaash-3 (Endeavor-3) system is to be unveiled on April 18, when the country marks National Army Day.

In recent years, Iran has made great achievements in its defense sector and reached self-sufficiency in producing essential military equipment and systems.

Iran has repeatedly assured other countries that its military might poses no threat to other states, insisting that the country’s defense doctrine is entirely based on deterrence.


*Pics and firing footage will be posted soon!*

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## AUz

Fcuk, Iran makes new weapon faster than the speed by which Kim Kashdarian divorces her newly-wed husband..

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## Minute by Minute

That is because, we are the fastest growing nation, when it comes to sciense!

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## AUz

Minute by Minute said:


> That is because, we are the fastest growing nation, when it comes to sciense!



Or may be because what iran show isn't exactly what it has?

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## SOHEIL

AUz said:


> Or may be because what iran show isn't exactly what it has?

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## AUz

SOHEIL said:


>



specs?

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## East or West India Best

Congrads to Iran and Iranian people.

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## SipahSalar

more pictures please.


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## SOHEIL

AUz said:


> specs?



wait ...

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## Zarvan

East or West India Best said:


> Congrads to Iran and Iranian people.


Post more pictures with details

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## SOHEIL

Zarvan said:


> Post more pictures with details



wait for god's sake !

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## Gold Eagle

Here are some screen shots!

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## SOHEIL



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## kaykay

Range?


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## Surenas

Looks almost similar to the Kh-55. Its probably based on this system.

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## SOHEIL

kaykay said:


> Range?



+2,500 km

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## Azeri440

looks like tomahawk block III/IV with that intake.

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## Gold Eagle

High quality photos :










Video : رونمایی از موشک کروز برد بلند سومار

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## SOHEIL

Surenas said:


> Looks almost similar to the Kh-55. Its probably based on this system.



So we have the nuclear warheads too !

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## Zarvan

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 200570
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +2,500 km


2500 KM That is massive Are you sure about the range ?????

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## haviZsultan

Well done Iran. We want a strong Iran which can support Pakistan. Iran was the first country to accept Pakistan as a nation.

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## SOHEIL

Zarvan said:


> 2500 KM That is massive Are you sure about the range ?????



*+*2500 km ... not 2500 km !

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## Surenas

SOHEIL said:


> So we have the nuclear warheads too !



No. 

''On 18 March 2005 "Financial Times" newspaper of Britain reported that Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Svyatoslav Piskun had stated that Ukraine exported 12 cruise missiles to Iran and six to China in 2001. Piskun told the paper that none of the 18 X-55 cruise missiles (also known as Kh-55 or AS-15) was exported with the nuclear warheads they were designed to carry.''

X-55


SOHEIL said:


> *+*2500 km ... not 2500 km !



Kh-55 has a range of approx. 3000km, enough to have Israel within range with this missile.

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## Bornubus

The countries who are blessed with superior Space technology are by default ....leaders in missile tech....range doesn't matter for them 2500 km or 10000 km.....its true for Iran,India,US,Russia , Israel,china and EU.....other than us.... are thieves and proliferators of tech.....so cheers we are the real papas....

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## SOHEIL

IRGC working on a flying wing stealth bomber 2/3 size of B-2 ...

& this ( soomar ) is one of the passengers !



Surenas said:


> No.
> 
> ''On 18 March 2005 "Financial Times" newspaper of Britain reported that Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Svyatoslav Piskun had stated that Ukraine exported 12 cruise missiles to Iran and six to China in 2001. Piskun told the paper that none of the 18 X-55 cruise missiles (also known as Kh-55 or AS-15) was exported with the nuclear warheads they were designed to carry.''
> 
> X-55
> 
> 
> Kh-55 has a range of approx. 3000km, enough to have Israel within range with this missile.



I was being sarcastic

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## Surenas

Any video of the firing?

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## SOHEIL

Surenas said:


> Any video of the firing?



Not on youtube !

still searching for a better quality video ...

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## Surenas

SOHEIL said:


> Not on youtube !
> 
> still searching for a better quality video ...



Thanks. Keep us updated.

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## Gold Eagle

Oh Yeah...!!

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## SOHEIL



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## Zarvan

SOHEIL said:


> *+*2500 km ... not 2500 km !


Russia either directly or indirectly has given you technology of KH-55 because its exact copy of that still as it destroys the enemy no problem with that

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## The Last of us

Zarvan said:


> Russia either directly or indirectly has given you technology of KH-55 because its exact copy of that still as it destroys the enemy no problem with that



Russia did not even give Iran sam's like s-300, you think they'll give Iran 3000km range cruise missile tech?
You say this is an "exact" copy like you know everything about sumar missile. What do you know about the internal components of this missile? Just because things look the same, it does not mean they are the same.

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## SOHEIL

Zarvan said:


> Russia either directly or indirectly has given you technology of KH-55 because its exact copy of that still as it destroys the enemy no problem with that




This is reverse engineering !
Not transferring technology ...
If you remember , S-300 was a defensive system ... 
This is an offensive system ...
& not a simple one ... 3000 km range !
We have western part of the russia under the range !
1+1=2

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## Zarvan

The Last of us said:


> Russia did not even give Iran sam's like s-300, you think they'll give Iran 3000km range cruise missile tech?
> You say this is an "exact" copy like you know everything about sumar missile. What do you know about the internal components of this missile? Just because things look the same, it does not mean they are the same.


Because of international pressure they can't sell many things directly so they are doing it indirectly

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## Surenas

The Last of us said:


> Russia did not even give Iran sam's like s-300, you think they'll give Iran 3000km range cruise missile tech?



Russia did not give us anything. Ukraine did.

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## Zarvan

SOHEIL said:


> This is reverse engineering !
> Not transferring technology ...
> If you remember , S-300 was a defensive system ...
> This is an offensive system ...
> & not a simple one ... 3000 km range !
> We have western part of the russia under the range !
> 1+1=2


But Russia has offered another Air Defence systems to you


----------



## The Last of us

Zarvan said:


> Because of international pressure they can't sell many things directly so they are doing it indirectly



If that was true then Iran would not have taken Russia to court over the S-300 
Are you telling me that it is all an act?

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## SOHEIL



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## The Last of us

@haman10 jan,

come join the party here. It's soomars birthday today.

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## Zarvan

The Last of us said:


> If that was true then Iran would not taken Russia to court over the S-300
> Are you telling me that it is all an act?


You can't have build this missile without Russian help

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## The Last of us

Zarvan said:


> You can't have build this missile without Russian help



Says who? You?

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## SOHEIL

Zarvan said:


> But Russia has offered another Air Defence systems to you



Antey-2500 !?

A piece of crap ... useless and outdated !

we already have better SAMs ...



Zarvan said:


> You can't have build this missile without Russian help



It took years ... but we did !!!

Special thanks to ukraine for the sell out ...

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## haman10

The Last of us said:


> @haman10 jan,
> 
> come join the party here. It's soomars birthday today.


Fadat sham, i have no laptop for almost 4 days. Looks like you have to keep the parcham bala all by yourself 

Sorry bro

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## The Last of us

haman10 said:


> Fadat sham, i have no laptop for almost 4 days. Looks like you have to keep the parcham bala all by yourself
> 
> Sorry bro



Don't worry dadash! I will keep this place garm for you until you return.

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## SOHEIL

The Last of us said:


> @haman10 jan,
> 
> come join the party here. It's soomars birthday today.



Soumar is not a newbie ... just another declassified newbie !

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## Oldman1

Zarvan said:


> You can't have build this missile without Russian help



As the posters already pointed out that Ukraine helped them. Not Russia.

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## The Last of us

SOHEIL said:


> Soumar is not a newbie ... just another declassified newbie !



Are, fekr konam in hamoon meshkat hast?
Meshkat was in service years ago!!!!

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## SOHEIL



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## The Last of us

Oldman1 said:


> As the posters already pointed out that Ukraine helped them. Not Russia.


Ukraine was just the source of the missile. The rest of the job was done by the Iranians.

@SOHEIL

Is there two versions? one with expandable intake?

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## SOHEIL

Oldman1 said:


> As the posters already pointed out that Ukraine helped them. Not Russia.



Help or sell !?

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## Oldman1

SOHEIL said:


> Help or sell !?



Does it matter?


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## SOHEIL

The Last of us said:


> Ukraine was just the source of the missile. The rest of the job was done by the Iranians.
> 
> @SOHEIL
> 
> Is there two versions? one with expandable intake?



Air & Land base !

Unfortunately still we don't have a suitable bomber yet ...

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## Surenas

Soheil, no video yet?

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## SOHEIL

Oldman1 said:


> Does it matter?



it matters ... if you buy something , it doesn't mean you already have the ability to mass produce it !

we did a reverse engineering job & now we can make it alot

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## haman10

Matters to an extent that you're president begged for his toy back 

We can RE anything babe. I assume you should expect Iranian F-35 too, due to some evil reasons. Lol


Oldman1 said:


> Does it matter?

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## The Last of us

Surenas said:


> Soheil, no video yet?



Have you seen this one already?
رونمایی از موشک کروز برد بلند سومار

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## SOHEIL

Surenas said:


> Soheil, no video yet?



unfortunately high quality video from the launch is not available !

this is the best quality for now :

رونمایی از موشک کروز برد بلند سومار

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## The Last of us

Oldman1 said:


> Does it matter?



So you don't a difference between than just buying something and being given the product with TOT?

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## Oldman1

SOHEIL said:


> it matters ... if you buy something , it doesn't mean you already have the ability to mass produce it !
> 
> we did a reverse engineering job & now we can make it alot



Like I said, does it matter if help or sell?


----------



## Surenas

The Last of us said:


> Have you seen this one already?
> رونمایی از موشک کروز برد بلند سومار



What exact time in the video do we see this missile being fired?

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## rahi2357



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## The Last of us

Surenas said:


> What exact time in the video do we see this missile being fired?



You see a very short clip of it being fired at 1 minute and 52 seconds into the video

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## SOHEIL

Oldman1 said:


> Like I said, does it matter if help or sell?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Reminds me of an ex gf... A lot of range (If you know what I mean)... N her name was sumar too.

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## Oldman1

SOHEIL said:


>



You really don't know do you?

Ukraine sold you the missile. It helped you by reverse engineer and have your own land attack cruise missile capability as you stated. Get it?


----------



## SOHEIL

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Reminds me of an ex gf... A lot of range ... N her name was sumar too.

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## The Last of us

Oldman1 said:


> You really don't know do you?
> 
> Ukraine sold you the missile. It helped you by reverse engineer and have your own land attack cruise missile capability as you stated. Get it?



It seems you are the one confused here. Ukraine only sold Iran the missile, it did not help Iran in reverse engineering the missile. You keep mixing up selling the missile with selling+tot/reverse engineering.

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## SOHEIL

Oldman1 said:


> You really don't know do you?
> 
> Ukraine sold you the missile. It helped you by reverse engineer and have your own land attack cruise missile capability as you stated. Get it?



whatever !

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SOHEIL said:


>

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

War can't be won by Missiles alone that much should be clear to all


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## SOHEIL

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 200595



She was a badass GF !

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## Hack-Hook

Oldman1 said:


> You really don't know do you?
> 
> Ukraine sold you the missile. It helped you by reverse engineer and have your own land attack cruise missile capability as you stated. Get it?


Don't forget the missiles we bought from Ukraine according to reports due to the lack of maintenance were not operational.
so we could not just copy them.

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## The Great One

CONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTZZZZZZZZZZZ

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## Hack-Hook

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> War can't be won by Missiles alone that much should be clear to all


but those missiles can help you to avert the war .

honestly I believe 3000km is not enough what we need is the ability to reach Diego Garcia Island to have a good deterrence against the war. and that is 3100 miles not 3100km

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## Draco.IMF

Very nice.
But how you direct this missile into a target 2000km away within CEP 10-20m without satellites?

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## Hack-Hook

Draco.IMF said:


> Very nice.
> But how you direct this missile into a target 2000km away within CEP 10-20m without satellites?


maybe with the help of topographic maps and inertial guidance and terminal correction of the course with the help of optical devices.also they can use landmarks like Radio and Mobile antenna .

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

MIssiles are like arrows were in old battle field they did the damage however they can be easily counetered

Real difference makers are no doubt Iranian Muscle and brain to construct Nuclear bombs

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## yavar

obsolete. BS continues

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## Hack-Hook

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> MIssiles are like arrows were in old battle field they did the damage however they can be easily counetered
> 
> Real difference makers are no doubt Iranian Muscle and brain to construct Nuclear bombs


if you read about the history, you see in Battle of Carrhae we defeated roman Army with those arrows and in battle of Ray we did the same thing against Abbasid army .

every weapon can win you the day if used correctly. but as I said these are not for winning the war these are for not to do any war.

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## The Last of us

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> MIssiles are like arrows were in old battle field they did the damage however they can be easily counetered
> 
> Real difference makers are no doubt Iranian Muscle and brain to construct Nuclear bombs



So according to you nukes are more useful on the battle field than missiles with non-nuke warheads?
What on earth are you talking about? What do you think will happen to a nation if they used a nuke? You obviously don't know anything about the potency of modern missiles.
we are not talking about dumb, unguided rockets but highly accurate missile which can paralyse nations by destroying strategic sites. And Iran has thousands of such weapons. According to you, those are useless.

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## Surenas

Article from 2010:

*Israeli aerospace official: Iran cruise missile poses 'extremely serious' threat*

*TEL AVIV — Israel has been closely monitoring Iran's long-range cruise missile program. *

Officials said the intelligence community has been examining Iran's efforts to develop and produce a long-range cruise missile. They said the missile could fly under the radar of most regional states and change the balance of power in the Middle East.

"This is an extremely serious danger," Israel Aerospace Industries chairman Yair Shamir said.

Shamir, head of Israel's largest defense contractor, identified the Iranian program as the KH-55 cruise missile. The missile, supplied to Teheran by Ukraine around 2006, was being enhanced by Iran's Defense Ministry.

In an address to Israel's first multi-national ballistic missile defense conference on May 5, Shamir said Iran sought to extend the range of the missile beyond 2,500 kilometers. He said Iran also was developing an air-launched version of KH-55.

"The pace of missile development is much faster than those of solutions," Shamir said. "The new element is that Iran is already in space."

Tal Inbar, a director at the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, said Iran received at least 12 K-55s from Ukraine. Inbar, who works closely with the Israel Air Force, said Iran has already displayed a cruise missile that resembled that of the U.S.-origin Tomahawk.

"It's purpose remains unclear," Inbar said.

Officials said KH-55 represents a growing Iranian capability to significantly enhance foreign missile systems. They cited Teheran's success in extending the range of the North Korean No Dong missile from 1,300 kilometers to that of at least 2,100 kilometers under the Shihab-3ER program.

"There have been significant developments on the part of Iran," said Arieh Herzog, director of the Defense Ministry's Israel Missile Defense Organization.

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## yavar

Iran 'Soumar' land to land cruise missile

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## The Last of us

@yavar 

Hasn't this been in service for many years now? They first talked about this missile being in service in 2011 right?

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## Shahryar Hedayati

Draco.IMF said:


> Very nice.
> But how you direct this missile into a target 2000km away within CEP 10-20m without satellites?





JEskandari said:


> maybe with the help of topographic maps and inertial guidance and terminal correction of the course with the help of optical devices.also they can use landmarks like Radio and Mobile antenna .



'' KH55 is guided through a combination of an inertial guidance system plus a terrain contour-matching guidance system which uses radar and images stored in the memory of an on board computer to find its target. This allows the missile to guide itself to the target with a high degree of accuracy.''

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## Militant Atheist

Why isn't this being used against ISIS?

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## Surenas

Militant Atheist said:


> Why isn't this being used against ISIS?



Too expensive. Iran has other much cheaper weapon systems to target ISIS.

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## Militant Atheist

Surenas said:


> Too expensive. Iran has other much cheaper weapon systems to target ISIS.



But they should be tested in a real battle nonetheless?

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## SOHEIL

Militant Atheist said:


> Why isn't this being used against ISIS?



For real !?



Militant Atheist said:


> But they should be tested in a real battle nonetheless?



So what is the point of war games !?

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## fafarkhan

yavar said:


> obsolete. BS continues


i knew yavar jan 
we are far better than this 
its been proven

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## Minute by Minute

@Militant Atheist 
During the invasion of Afghanistan even the usa media made fun of "firing a 500 000 dollar missile to destroy a 100 dollars tent!" For a country like usa, ruled by their shadow government of military-intelligence complex it is all about burning as much Money as fast as posible to keep their business going.
I am guessing but perhaps our guided artilary Shells are doing the job in Syria!

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## Shahryar Hedayati

''Up to 20 nuclear-capable Kh-55 missiles -- with a 3000km range -
- and *four 200-kiloton nuclear warheads (OMG)* 
were stolen by a shadowy group of former Russian and Ukrainian intelligence and military officers.

But one version of events, supported by documents obtained from the Ukrainian parliament and the investigations of the Haider family, is that they ended up in Iran and China''

*http://www.left.ru/2009/6/nowell188.phtml*


''Ukrainian officials have acknowledged that a total of 12 Kh-55 medium-range, air-launched cruise missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads were transferred from Ukraine to Iran and China in the last five years''

*http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2005_05/Ukraine*


.......................................................................................



TOMAHAWK IN ACTION
SHOCK AND AWE

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## Kiarash

This epic music really suits this occasion !!!

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## yavar

Iran made Soumar Land attack cruise missile موشك كروز سومار ايران








The Last of us said:


> @yavar
> 
> Hasn't this been in service for many years now? They first talked about this missile being in service in 2011 right?




yes brother for very long time before 2011


=============================================================================

Iran Long-Range "Soumar" Land attack cruise missile

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## Serpentine

That's great, but I think we have had this for at least 2 years, maybe they were testing it for months to get proper assurances?

For those who may not know, Sumar is the name of a very small Kurdish town in Kermanshah province, western Iran which was targeted by chemical weapons of the Great Bastard, Saddam Hussein and suffered from civilian casualties.

@haman10 Your province is honored.

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## yavar

please take to consideration the video been taken from far away and the sound it been tampered

Iran Iran Long-Range "Soumar" Land attack cruise missile firing from land base launcher

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## Kasra-Prophecy

it had reverse engineered more than 20 years ago and unveiled NOW..i was waiting for this long long time ago.. Congrats!! even NOW

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## boomslang

One more of the many Iranian bullshits. Cardboard and duct tape.


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## SOHEIL

@Guynextdoor2 
@Gessler 
@kurup 
@jarves 
@IND151

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## yavar



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## -------

Minute by Minute said:


> @Militant Atheist
> During the invasion of Afghanistan even the usa media made fun of "firing a 500 000 dollar missile to destroy a 100 dollars tent!" For a country like usa, ruled by their shadow government of military-intelligence complex it is all about burning as much Money as fast as posible to keep their business going.
> I am guessing but perhaps our guided artilary Shells are doing the job in Syria!



They used missiles that were nearing their use by date, for them it was disposing of missiles that were soon to be scrap. Probably why most of them fell out of the skies over Pakistan and reversed engineered.

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## SOHEIL

Combat-Master said:


> They used missiles that were nearing their use by date, for them it was disposing of missiles that were soon to be scrap. Probably why most of them fell out of the skies over Pakistan and reversed engineered.



I didn't know a cruise missile can survive from a crash landing !!!

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## yavar

fafarkhan said:


> i knew yavar jan
> we are far better than this
> its been proven


do not worry what we have cocked for American continental main land is full meal dish you just wait .

as more as it escalate as more as we going to see .

listen to former head of DIA .
He had access to classified . He knows



yavar said:


> *FOR FOOLS*
> 
> 
> *Fmr DIA Head*
> 
> quote " Iran is global threat because of the ballistic missiles capabilities nothing else . the range of some of capabilities they have " unquote

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## B@KH

Congratulations to Iran for keeping and proving a successful deterrence against their enemies.

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## yavar

Iran Long-Range "Soumar" Land attack cruise missile fired from land base launcher

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## -------

SOHEIL said:


> I didn't know a cruise missile can survive from a crash landing !!!



Well here's a video of one crash landing in Syria. Manufacture date 2006.

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## Penguin

KH-55 clone.










> *Kh-55SM*
> The Kh-55SM is an extended range version of the nuclear base model, the Kh-55. To achieve the extra range, conformal fuel tanks are mounted on both sides of the fuselage. The Kh-55SM also has a more powerful engine, producing 450 kg of thrust. See below for the main differences.
> 
> Slightly larger body diameter due to the fuel tanks, 0.77 m.
> Increased launch weight, 1,500 kg.
> Increased range, 3,000 km.
> In 2000, reports suggest that Ukraine exported six Kh-55SM missiles to China, and in 2001, exported another six to Iran. Two Russian nationals, with the help of at least one Ukrainian official, created a series of front companies to hide and facilitate the transaction. 4 This is considered one the worst cases of missile proliferation in modern times given the advanced capabilities of the Kh-55 series.


Kh-55/-55SM/-555/-65SE | Missile ThreatAS-15 'Kent", RKV-500, X-65C3, Kh-SD | Missile Threat

Research by burtsev.ru

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## Beast

yavar said:


> *Iran the Secret History Noor Cruise Missile *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Secret History of Iran Noor cruise missile and how Iran manage to build it by itself and upgrade it and how Chinese cheated Iran by cancelling the joint project one sided and eating Iran money . the ex CIA officer explain how Iran manage to finish the project and bypass sanction and make 5 times better cruise missile called Noor which has much more capabilities than the Chinese type
> 
> 
> 
> more nonesense
> you do not even know the history and many fool like you think China is Iran friend or Iranians look at China as friend
> 
> do you know how much money China owe us money which is NOT paying only on oil payment ?? can you tell us how many times China eated Iran money in past 36 years ??


Stop talking nonsense, fancy you believe a CIA word? The American are at best creating a rife between their enemies allies. So far the only deal which failed to materialize for Iran is the Russia S-300 deal.

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Unfortunately still we don't have a suitable bomber yet ..
> 
> So what is the point of war games !?


hahahahhaahhahaha

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## -------

Penguin said:


> KH-55 clone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kh-55/-55SM/-555/-65SE | Missile ThreatAS-15 'Kent", RKV-500, X-65C3, Kh-SD | Missile Threat
> 
> Research by burtsev.ru



Pretty much, except Iranians managed to make it ground/surface launchable.


----------



## yavar

Beast said:


> Stop talking nonsense, fancy you believe a CIA word? The American are at best creating a rife between their enemies allies. So far the only deal which failed to materialize for Iran is the Russia S-300 deal.



you are the one who talk nonsense get lost and dont quote my post


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> hahahahhaahhahaha



I mean a big one !

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> I mean a big one !


i meant big one . i hope nuclear deal clapes and then U.S start threaten us then maybe we see some more


----------



## jack 86000

*
Iran Unveils New Ground-Based Cruise Missile System
video *
PressTV

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## Kasra-Prophecy

OLD one..but still effective..
*UN Inspector Scott Ritter: Fools would Bomb Iran *

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## SipahSalar

Bornubus said:


> The countries who are blessed with superior Space technology are by default ....leaders in missile tech....range doesn't matter for them 2500 km or 10000 km.....its true for Iran,India,US,Russia , Israel,china and EU.....other than us.... are thieves and proliferators of tech.....so cheers we are the real papas....


Butthurt much?


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> i meant big one . i hope nuclear deal clapes and then U.S start threaten us then maybe we see some more



This big !?

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## yavar



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## Prechko

Surenas said:


> Russia did not give us anything. Ukraine did.



Ukraine had a lot of business with Iran in defence sector in late 90`s , Iran was paying good but Americans pressed them hard to drop from cooperation. Too bad , that money could really uplift Ukraine`s defence industry.

BTW congrats to Iran!

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## Oublious

Again a fake missile of iran, look to the video of the test no wings.

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## yavar

Iran Long-Range "Soumar" Land attack cruise missile fired from land based launcher








Oublious said:


> Again a fake missile of iran, look to the video of the test no wings.


yeh you wish in your wet dream .

look at image of camra on board

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## Oublious

yavar said:


> Iran Long-Range "Soumar" Land attack cruise missile fired from land based launcher
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeh you wish in your wet dream .
> 
> look at image of camra on board





thats the tail not wing. Again a propaganda...

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## monitor

Gold Eagle said:


> Oh Yeah...!!



Congratulation to Iranian brother for their great achievement wish you progress further .



Surenas said:


> Looks almost similar to the Kh-55. Its probably based on this system.



no matter it based on what , it is now Iranian and Iran have absorbed the technology thats enough.

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## yavar

Oublious said:


> thats the tail not wing..


the one they showed was the first generation of "Soumar" missile Iran made for first time some time ago . and the one which you see in video firing is second generation .

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## raazh

Congratulations to Iran on this great achievement. Doesnt matter how accurate is the guidance or what is the source of this missile .. a range of 2500KM (if true) is in itself a major deterrence against Israel.

However it would have been better if Iran had not disclosed this program immediately after Netanyahu's provocative speech. Just gave them another reason for anti-Iran rhetoric ..

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## Bornubus

SipahSalar said:


> Butthurt much?


?????...Did my post offended you...


buddy...


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## yavar

Oublious said:


> tAgain a propaganda...



you see for fool like you it is called propaganda . . but in reality we call it fooling around and making confusion

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## Surenas

yavar said:


> the one they showed was the first generation of "Soumar" missile and the one which you see in video firing is second generation .



Plus the wings are retractable.

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## ResurgentIran

Sexy beast!!

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## SOHEIL

Oublious said:


> propaganda








@yavar ... which big !?

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## Shahryar Hedayati

Oublious said:


> Again a fake missile of iran, look to the video of the test no wings.









The missile exits the launcher and a solid-fuel booster is ignited for the first few seconds of airborne flight until transition to cruise.

After achieving flight, the missile's wings are unfolded for lift, the airscoop is exposed and the turbofan engine is employed for cruise flight

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## The Last of us

Oublious said:


> Again a fake missile of iran, look to the video of the test no wings.



Are you mentally retarded or just a butt hurt turk?
Seriously dude, go back to your section where you're getting ecstatic over a korean k-2 tank rip off

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## SOHEIL

Shahryar Hedayati said:


> The missile exits the launcher and a solid-fuel booster is ignited for the first few seconds of airborne flight until transition to cruise.
> 
> After achieving flight, the missile's wings are unfolded for lift, the airscoop is exposed and the turbofan engine is employed for cruise flight



Teaching a fool !?

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## ResurgentIran

So basically this missile is "Meshkat"?

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## Shahryar Hedayati

SOHEIL said:


> Teaching a fool !?

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## SOHEIL

ResurgentIran said:


> So basically this missile is "Meshkat"?

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## ResurgentIran

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> War can't be won by Missiles alone that much should be clear to all



Who says we are after war?
This adds another layer to our deterrence capabilities. Afterall that is what our military defence doctrine is based on, deterrence.
Making it as costly and painful for the enemies in case they think about contemplating an attack on Iran.

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## jack 86000

entire population of Sumar was killed by an Iraqi chemical attack

Sumar, Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## haman10

jack 86000 said:


> entire population of Sumar was killed by an Iraqi chemical attack
> 
> Sumar, Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


it is a city in my province , kermanshah .

it's almost ruined 100%

and man it's hard to type with on-screen-keyboard

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## haman10

yavar said:


> you are the one who talk nonsense get lost and do quote my post


bro , virtually you are aggressive towards every foreigner here . 

please don't screw up the already bad relations that we have here 

thanks bro

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## Draco.IMF

This baby launched from sub *-> Gamechanger*

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## Shams313

Nice bannana.Solid designe for israeli monkeys.
good job iran.

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## ResurgentIran

@haman10 @Serpentine @The Last of us @kollang @mohsen @JEskandari @Shahryar Hedayati @Daneshmand @SOHEIL @yavar @Kiarash @jack 86000 

LOL take a look at this. Even Nutjobyahoo, the insolent obnoxious filth, is now starting to cave when it comes to Iran's nuclear program.
His previous position was "zero nuclear capability", but in this video states that the deal should be to extend Iran's "breakout time", which is a tacit acceptance of a de facto nuclar Iran with a latent capability. 

Netanyahu outlines 'better' nuclear deal | Video | Reuters.com

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## Daneshmand

Interesting development. It is such a dangerous missile that the ground launched version of it, is actually banned under INF treaty: Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But anyways, it is a powerful weapon. Another interesting aspect to take note, is the use of grid fins for booster control section. That is, I guess new for Iran. It will have uses in other areas specially in BVR air-air missiles as well: Grid fin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Space-X uses grid fin technology for recovery phase of their rockets for example.

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## mister



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## SOHEIL



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## The SiLent crY

AUz said:


> Fcuk, Iran makes new weapon faster than the speed by which Kim Kashdarian divorces her newly-wed husband..



Not everyone can satisfy that big ... .

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## Shams313

mister said:


>


may be that engine showed in a ceremony.marked one.

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## Draco.IMF

SOHEIL said:


> IRGC working on a flying wing stealth bomber 2/3 size of B-2 ...
> 
> & this ( soomar ) is one of the passengers !



Did Iran even mastered reverse engineering of any jet engines?
And im not talking about small ones for Karrar UAV but seomthing like russian torbafan SATURN

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## SOHEIL

Draco.IMF said:


> Did Iran even mastered reverse engineering of any jet engines?
> And im not talking about small ones for Karrar UAV but seomthing like russian torbafan SATURN

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## Daneshmand

The SiLent crY said:


> Not everyone can satisfy that big ... .



Some day, she will find her true love.

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## Shams313

SOHEIL said:


>


it doesn't make any sense to me,exactly when these missile were manufactured. it's colour says that may be one or two year ago.

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## haman10

Draco.IMF said:


> but seomthing like russian torbafan SATURN


lol

God bless ya 

@SOHEIL @yavar

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Daneshmand said:


> Some day, she will find her true love.



you should pray for her after every salat..

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## Daneshmand

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> you should pray for her after every salat..



If I do, will she pray for me too?

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## Draco.IMF

SOHEIL said:


>



Ok so why still classified or never show to public, i mean, engines are no weapons, would love to see it already...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Daneshmand said:


> If I do, will she pray for me too?



nope...

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## The SiLent crY

Serpentine said:


> That's great, but I think we have had this for at least 2 years, maybe they were testing it for months to get proper assurances?
> 
> For those who may not know, Sumar is the name of a very small Kurdish town in Kermanshah province, western Iran which was targeted by chemical weapons of the Great Bastard, Saddam Hussein and suffered from civilian casualties.
> 
> @haman10 Your province is honored.



Indeed , Great bastard .

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## SOHEIL

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> you should pray for her after every salat..










Draco.IMF said:


> Ok so why still classified or never show to public, i mean, engines are no weapons, would love to see it already...



Because the applications are still classified !



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> nope...

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## Shams313

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> nope...


illegal



SOHEIL said:


>


Don't cry baby,i have lolipop for u.
take this.

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## SOHEIL

Optimus prime said:


> Don't cry baby,i have lolipop for u.
> take this.

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## Surenas

Its much more likely that Iran already had this missile in its arsenal for years, but decided to unveil it during the end-stage of the nuclear negotiations for a number of reasons.

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## SOHEIL

@Surenas 

*HD*

http://8f4aad807b7d73c135b68421bbe6...ranbureau/20150308/08N500-AMK-P-TEHRAN_CG.mp4

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## SOHEIL



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## Daneshmand

Where is @500 ?

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## SOHEIL

> “The unveiling of the cruise missile is very surprising,” says Tal Inbar, head of the space and unmanned-aerial-vehicle center at the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies in Herzliya.
> 
> “We have to ask ourselves why the Iranians are interested in revealing that they have such a weapon, which threatens wide swaths of Europe, including ... Moscow and NATO members Greece and Turkey.



Iran unveils new long-range cruise missile - Diplomacy and Defense - Israel News | Haaretz

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## 500

Daneshmand said:


> Where is @500 ?


Hello 

Thats obviously a Kh-55 clone. Its accuracy 100-200 m (very little military value without the nuclear warhead). Motors are most probably imported from Ukraine (Motor-Sich).

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## Azeri440

Surenas said:


> Kh-55 has a range of approx. 3000km, enough to have Israel within range with this missile.



they achieve that range as it is air launched , ground launched version will have a range of less than 2500.

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## The SC

Oldman1 said:


> You really don't know do you?
> 
> Ukraine sold you the missile. It helped you by reverse engineer and have your own land attack cruise missile capability as you stated. Get it?


Just to be fair, when the ex-USSR split up, everyone, i mean everyone on this planet with some money was buying some thing from the ex republics, including the US who has gotten her hands on the S-300 system to "study it"!

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## SOHEIL

500 said:


> Hello
> 
> Thats obviously a Kh-55 clone. Its accuracy 100-200 m (very little military value without the nuclear warhead). Motors are most probably imported from Ukraine (Motor-Sich).



So we are not isolated as you say ! 

imported from Ukraine !? 

100-200 m !? 

& the funniest part ... TurAr thanked you immediately !

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## The SC

500 said:


> Hello
> 
> Thats obviously a Kh-55 clone. Its accuracy 100-200 m (very little military value without the nuclear warhead). Motors are most probably imported from Ukraine (Motor-Sich).


That stands for the old KH-55 that terrified your high ranking militaries with the news of Iran having it. Today, Iran can make Ballistic and semi-ballistic missiles with 1m accuracy, so expect this one to have the same 1m accuracy.

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## Daneshmand

500 said:


> Hello
> 
> Thats obviously a Kh-55 clone. Its accuracy 100-200 m (very little military value without the nuclear warhead). Motors are most probably imported from Ukraine (Motor-Sich).



Hi. Imported from Ukraine? There is a civil war going on there. Not possible.

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## Azeri440

Daneshmand said:


> Hi. Imported from Ukraine? There is a civil war going on there. Not possible.



it was imported back in 2001, with most of them going to Iran and some to China


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## MarkusS

That doesn´t create much trust for iranian. Its also quite stupid. We are right in the 5+1 debates and hope for a solution. Israel tries heavily to sabotage our deal with Iran and what does Iran do? Fires its propaganda show like always. I think it would be smarter for you guys to cool it down right now.

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## Daneshmand

Azeri440 said:


> they achieve that range as it is air launched , ground launched version will have a range of less than 2500.



Not much difference. The air-launched version does not have a booster. Beside, these missiles now can be made from much lighter materials by using carbon fiber and composite material which were not available back then or were too expensive.

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## The Last of us

500 said:


> Hello
> 
> Thats obviously a Kh-55 clone. Its accuracy 100-200 m (very little military value without the nuclear warhead). Motors are most probably imported from Ukraine (Motor-Sich).



As expected more random BS from this 'think tank'.
You don't know jack about this missile's guidance system and like a mentally handicapped troll you think if it looks the same as the KH-55 that it must be a clone of it screw to screw.
The engine for this missile was shown at an aerospace exhibition a few months back.

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## SOHEIL

Daneshmand said:


> Hi. Imported from Ukraine? There is a civil war going on there. Not possible.



We did our imports in 90s & early 2000s !

They have to worry about the bigass ICBMs ... sorry space launchers

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## Daneshmand

Azeri440 said:


> it was imported back in 2001, with most of them going to Iran and some to China



12 complete systems had been imported back then, as per reports. But these apparently were used for reverse-engineering. This is not really high-tech stuff. It is a disposable system. So, it is do-able for Iran. The engine is not like a GE-90 that needs to have an operational life of 50,000 hours with high safety. This thing flies for a few hours and one way.



The SC said:


> Just to be fair, when the ex-USSR split up, everyone, i mean everyone on this planet with some money was buying some thing from the ex republics, including the US who has gotten her hands on the S-300 system to "study it"!



Not to forget Mig-29, Mi-24 and even RD-180 engines among many other things which were bought by US from left over stash of USSR.

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## SouI

SOHEIL said:


>


So, the range is about 1.000km?

Btw any range test has been done so far? We are personally having troubles to find long range test areas, as our country's surface maximumly allows us to have about +2200km linear range on ground at best.

I've seen that some said about 3.000km, it would be a bit problematic to find such a long test area, no?

Btw congratz, regardless of what happened so that you guys have this weapon now, you have this weapons, its techs and capability to produce it. Which is pretty much all that matters anyway.


----------



## 500

The Last of us said:


> As expected more random BS from this 'think tank'.
> You don't know jack about this missile's guidance system and like a mentally handicapped troll you think if it looks the same as the KH-55 that it must be a clone of it screw to screw.
> The engine for this missile was shown at an aerospace exhibition a few months back.


As usual cursing and swearing. Check this:

Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



SOHEIL said:


> So we are not isolated as you say !
> 
> imported from Ukraine !?
> 
> 100-200 m !?
> 
> & the funniest part ... TurAr thanked you immediately !


Ukraine is very poor. It sells anything to anyone.

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## Daneshmand

MarkusS said:


> That doesn´t create much trust for iranian. Its also quite stupid. We are right in the 5+1 debates and hope for a solution. Israel tries heavily to sabotage our deal with Iran and what does Iran do? Fires its propaganda show like always. I think it would be smarter for you guys to cool it down right now.



This is a safety mechanism if the deal does not go through.

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## SOHEIL

MarkusS said:


> That doesn´t create much trust for iranian. Its also quite stupid. We are right in the 5+1 debates and hope for a solution. Israel tries heavily to sabotage our deal with Iran and what does Iran do? Fires its propaganda show like always. I think it would be smarter for you guys to cool it down right now.



There is no cool down on your side ... so let us make it a little warmer !

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## The Last of us

SouI said:


> So, the range is about 1.000km?
> 
> Btw any range test has been done so far? We are personally having troubles to find long range test areas, as our country's surface maximumly allows us to have about +2200km linear range at best.
> 
> I've seen that some said about 3.000km, it would be a bit problematic to find such a long test area, no?



Iran does not have to test inside its borders. It can test into the sea. there is open waters from Iran to the south pole. No problems exists for testing range.

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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> So, the range is about 1.000km?



2500-3000 km ...

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## Daneshmand

SouI said:


> So, the range is about 1.000km?
> 
> Btw any range test has been done so far? We are personally having troubles to find long range test areas, as our country's surface maximumly allows us to have about +2200km linear range on ground at best.
> 
> I've seen that some said about 3.000km, it would be a bit problematic to find such a long test area, no?
> 
> Btw congratz, regardless of what happened so that you guys have this weapon now, you have this weapons, its techs and capability to produce it. Which is pretty much all that matters anyway.



No. You do not know how these things work.

First of all for ballistic technology you can test using a higher altitude profile, even if you do not have enough land mass. Iran does it all the time, this way. Also Iran has another advantage by having a clear line of sight into Indian ocean, which Iran has used as a test range before.

For cruise missiles, you can program them to fly in a circle, back and forth.

The design range of this Iranian missile is 3000 KM.

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## SouI

The Last of us said:


> Iran does not have to test inside its borders. It can test into the sea. there is open waters from Iran to the south pole. No problems exists for testing range.


So you guys made range-testing already?



SOHEIL said:


> 2500-3000 km ...


It says 700 miles.. It doesn't make 2500-3000 km


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## Bornubus

What i have just heard....it is a CLONE of kh 55

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## The Last of us

500 said:


> As usual cursing and swearing. Check this:



The burden of proof is on the one making the statements not the one denying due to the statements being weak troll attempts.
The facts stand that you know nothing about this missiles guidance, and the fact that you think it uses the same guidance with same CEP as the old kh-55 shows your level of intellect. But then again, you're just a troll.

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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> it would be a bit problematic to find such a long test area, no?

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## Serpentine

500 said:


> Hello
> 
> Thats obviously a Kh-55 clone. Its accuracy 100-200 m (very little military value without the nuclear warhead). Motors are most probably imported from Ukraine (Motor-Sich).



Holy 500 strikes again.

It's a paper missile, with paper engine actually. Paper imported from Tanzania.

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## SOHEIL

Bornubus said:


> What i have just heard....it is a CLONE of kh 55



In first generation ... yes !

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## SouI

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 200729


My question was meant to ask if the range-testing has been done or not.


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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> It says 700 miles



Who !?

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## Bornubus

SOHEIL said:


> In first generation ... yes !


so can you give me a link what improvements Iranians made to this missile...or which generation is sumar

thanks


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## The Last of us

Bornubus said:


> What i have just heard....it is a CLONE of kh 55



We know nothing about this missile's internal systems. Inside, there will be a world of difference. Just compare Iran's shalamche missile to the HAWK.

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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> My question was meant to ask if the range-testing has been done or not.



obviously ...

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## Daneshmand

SouI said:


> My question was meant to ask if the range-testing has been done or not.



Didn't you see the video of it?

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## SouI

SOHEIL said:


> Who !?


Your picture that I used as quote as reference.



Daneshmand said:


> Didn't you see the video of it?


Firing a missile doesn't mean it is put under a range-testing.

It might just be to 'record' it flying.


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## SOHEIL

Bornubus said:


> so can you give me a link what improvements Iranians made to this missile...or which generation is sumar
> 
> thanks



First ... fully iranian made !

improvements are inside ... we can't see !

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## Daneshmand

SouI said:


> Your picture that I used as quote as reference.
> 
> 
> Firing a missile doesn't mean it is put under a range-testing.
> 
> I might just be to 'record' it flying.



Then you don't know how these things work. It is not a firecracker that you set it on fire. It is expensive and every firing must result in full data for analysis.

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## The Last of us

SouI said:


> Firing a missile doesn't mean it is put under a range-testing.
> 
> It might just be to 'record' it flying.



What? What are you talking about?

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## 500

The Last of us said:


> The burden of proof is on the one making the statements not the one denying due to the statements being weak troll attempts.
> The facts stand that you know nothing about this missiles guidance, and the fact that you think it uses the same guidance with same CEP as the old kh-55 shows your level of intellect.


Iran made a Kh-55 clone. Thats fact. There is no any reason to suggest that Iranian clone is better than original. Just like there is no any reason to suggest that Iranian Kornet copy is better than Russian Kornet, for example. If u think its better than its clone u should prove it.

Remember that Iran is still struggling to make S-300 copy - a Soviet missile from same era as Kh-55.

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## Shahryar Hedayati



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## Daneshmand

500 said:


> Iran made a Kh-55 clone. Thats fact. There is no any reason to suggest that Iranian clone is better than original. Just like there is no any reason to suggest that Iranian Kornet copy is better than Russian Kornet, for example. If u think its better than its clone u should prove it.
> 
> Remember that Iran is still struggling to make S-300 copy - a Soviet missile from same era as Kh-55.



S-300 is a much more complicated system than Kornet or Kh-55. There is no comparison.

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## SouI

Daneshmand said:


> Then you don't know how these things work. It is not a firecracker that you set it on fire. It is expensive and every firing must result in full data for analysis.


You just built a huge fake 'expensive' AC and destroyed it with 'expensive' missiles, just to seem like badass towards Israel and US, whereas it was well known that it would have no impact other than having them laugh at that effort of yours. 

So please don't talk about 'expensiveness'..


----------



## Malik Alashter

SOHEIL said:


> wait ...


Awesome wait wait wait so funy bro.

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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> Your picture that I used as quote as reference.



In this picture :






I just referring to *TERCOM* system :






*This is tomahawk !!!









*

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## Daneshmand

SouI said:


> You just built a huge fake expensive AC and destroyed it with 'expensive' missiles, just to seem like badass towards Israel and US, whereas it was well known that it would have no impact other than having them laugh at that effort of yours.
> 
> So please don't talk about 'expensiveness'..



When you build a satellite launcher, a ballitic missile with 2500 km range and a cruise missile with 2500 km range, then come here and talk. Right now, you have none.

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## ResurgentIran

MarkusS said:


> I think it would be smarter for you guys to cool it down right now.



Thats not the Iranian way.
We give a party vibe where ever we are!

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## SOHEIL

500 said:


> Iran made a Kh-55 clone. Thats fact. There is no any reason to suggest that Iranian clone is better than original. Just like there is no any reason to suggest that Iranian Kornet copy is better than Russian Kornet, for example. If u think its better than its clone u should prove it.
> 
> Remember that Iran is still struggling to make S-300 copy - a Soviet missile from same era as Kh-55.



Kh-55 clone ... & you don't say , what differences happened inside !

we just mastering these technologies ... future is bright !

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## SouI

SOHEIL said:


> In this picture :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just referring to *TERCOM* system :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is tomahawk !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Hey that was all you guys have given to the thread as source, so it is normal for one to assume that it was given as legitimacy of the specs.

I've seen so many '3000km bro!' posts here, but before real things like rockets happen to become real, first their factheets get released.

It was the only info-sheet you gave that I could use, soo..

Is there any of such for this new missile of yours you can share? If there is any, I'd love to check it out.


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## Daneshmand

The Last of us said:


> What? What are you talking about?



He means, he wants to sit on top of it and fly with it in order to "range" it with his stopwatch.

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## The Last of us

500 said:


> Iran made a Kh-55 clone. Thats fact. There is no any reason to suggest that Iranian clone is better than original. Just like there is no any reason to suggest that Iranian Kornet copy is better than Russian Kornet, for example. If u think its better than its clone u should prove it.
> 
> Remember that Iran is still struggling to make S-300 copy - a Soviet missile from same era as Kh-55.



"There is no reason to suggest Iranian clone is better", What are you mumblling on about? You're judging this missile by the fact it looks the same to the kh-55, thus in your 'brain' you deduced it must be the same? Consider every Iranian weapon we have seen that was based on upgrades, when we've seen the internal components, they have been vastly more modern than the systems they were based on. This is common sense kid. The technology Iran has today, especially in filed of electronics, computers, it is much more advanced than primitive ones used during the making of the original kh-55. If you can't see this then your mental capacity is the barrier here.

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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> You just built a huge fake 'expensive' AC and destroyed it with 'expensive' missiles, just to seem like badass towards Israel and US, whereas it was well known that it would have no impact other than having them laugh at that effort of yours.
> 
> So please don't talk about 'expensiveness'..



destroyed it !?

No ... it's going to prepare for future tests ... 

& not expensive enough ...

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## SouI

Daneshmand said:


> When you build a satellite launcher, a ballitic missile with 2500 km range and a cruise missile with 2500 km range, then come here and talk. Right now, you have none.


Do you realize that I am not bashing you guys right now?

Instead, I've congratulated you guys if you paid some attention..

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## Daneshmand

SouI said:


> Hey that was all you guys have given to the thread as source, so it is normal for one to assume that it was given as legitimacy of the specs.
> 
> I've seen so many '3000km bro!' posts here, but before real things like rockets happen to become real, first their factheets get released.
> 
> It was the only info-sheet you gave that I could use, soo..
> 
> Is there any of such for this new missile of yours you can share? If there is any, I'd love to check it out.



Factsheet? lol. This thing is not for export. Only missiles with less than 300 km have factsheets for impressing export customers. This is not one of those toys. It is too real.



SouI said:


> Do you realize that I am not bashing you guys right now?
> 
> Instead, I've congratulated you guys if you paid some attention..



Thank you for your congratulation. But then we have thick skins and are used to bashing.

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## cabatli_53

Daneshmand said:


> When you build a satellite launcher, a ballitic missile with 2500 km range and a cruise missile with 2500 km range, then come here and talk. Right now, you have none.



Is there an obligation to achieve them in order to kindly express personnel opinions in a defence forum ? Instead of bashing the members talking about this thing, Why don't you enlighten us regarding detail informations, differences than its original clone, the guidance which will deliver this missile up to dedicated targets precisiously...etc ? Can you tell us something different than "We are great" like sentences ?

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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> Hey that was all you guys have given to the thread as source, so it is normal for one to assume that it was given as legitimacy of the specs.
> 
> I've seen so many '3000km bro!' posts here, but before real things like rockets happen to become real, first their factheets get released.
> 
> It was the only info-sheet you gave that I could use, soo..
> 
> Is there any of such for this new missile of yours you can share? If there is any, I'd love to check it out.



sorry ... but " BGM-109C " is clear !

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## Bornubus

No disrespect to Iranians.....

But you should invest in Latest tech like supersonic cruise missiles like onyx....coz Barak 8 has been developed to counter onyx....BTW these kh 55....kh 35.....kh 31... are formidable threat nevertheless.....india also has all these missiles seconded only to Brahmos .....

And now hypersonic Brahmos 2 is coming...by 2022.

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## SouI

SOHEIL said:


> sorry ... but " BGM-109C " is clear !


I am not saying I didn't see it, I said I thought you gave it as a reference for the specs of the rocket..

But oh well, nvm.


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## The Last of us

cabatli_53 said:


> Is there an obligation to achieve them in order to kindly express personnel opinions in a defence forum ? Instead of bashing the members talking about this thing, Why don't you enlighten us regarding detail informations, differences than its original clone, the guidance which will deliver this missile up to dedicated targets precisiously...etc ? Can you tell us something different than "We are great" like sentences ?



Iran is not planning on advertise/sell these systems. You think they're going to give out information about this missile? For what? To satisfy you? These are strategic weapons not toys to sell to the likes of UAE.
What we should know about these system we know. Iran has no reason to give out details about such strategic systems.

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## SOHEIL

SouI said:


> I am not saying I didn't see it, I said I thought you gave it as a reference for the specs of the rocket..
> 
> But oh well, nvm.










SouI said:


> I am not saying I didn't see it

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## Daneshmand

cabatli_53 said:


> Is there an obligation to achieve them in order to kindly express personnel opinions in a defence forum ? Instead of bashing the members talking about this thing, Why don't you enlighten us regarding detail informations, differences than its original clone, the guidance which will deliver this missile up to dedicated targets precisiously...etc ? Can you tell us something different than "We are great" like sentences ?



Well, I did not start it first. It was the other guy. 

The chief difference between this Iranian version and the original version is the Iranian one being ground launched. The original one is air-launched. The reason why the original one was air-launched is because, the ground launched version was seen as too dangerous and strategically imbalancing so, US and USSR had banned its production as per INF treaty: Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iran is not a signatory to INF treaty. So it went ahead and made a ground launched version of it. By the way, we are GREAT.

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## SOHEIL

Bornubus said:


> No disrespect to Iranians.....
> 
> But you should invest in Latest tech like supersonic cruise missiles like onyx....coz Barak 8 has been developed to counter onyx....BTW these kh 55....kh 35.....kh 31... are formidable thereat nevertheless.....india also has all these missiles seconded only to Brahmos .....
> 
> And now hypersonic Brahmos 2 is coming...by 2022.



You sure this is our latest toy !?

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## Daneshmand

The Last of us said:


> Iran is not planning on advertise/sell these systems. You think they're going to give out information about this missile? For what? To satisfy you? These are strategic weapons not toys to sell to the likes of UAE.
> What we should know about these system we know. Iran has no reason to give out details about such strategic systems.



Advertise to whom? As per international law, missiles above 300 km range can not be exported.

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## Frogman

Daneshmand said:


> Hi. Imported from Ukraine? There is a civil war going on there. Not possible.



Not exactly true. While their defence industry is taking a hit the Ukraine is still exporting, largely to nations that have or continue to field Soviet systems .

Ukrainian companies were present and Ukraine itself had a booth to sell its wares at IDEX 2015

IDEX 2015 - Ministry of Defence of Ukraine


The Head of State has also examined the Ukrainian stand at the exhibition, which represents the products of the leading Ukrainian defense-industrial enterprises, namely State Corporate Group "Ukrspecexport", State Enterprise "Ukroboronservice", State Enterprise "Kyiv Armored Plant", State Enterprise "Research and Design Center of Shipbuilding" and State Enterprise "Experimental Design Bureau of General Aviation", Design Bureau "Antonov".

The Ukrainian exhibition includes full-size samples of armored vehicles "Dozor" and BTR-3E1, various types of anti-tank missiles ("Stugna" and "Combat"), anti-tank missile complex "Skif", guided artillery shell "Kvitnyk", cannon ZTM-2, radar locator "Delta", mockup of corvette "Hayduk", artillery boat "Gyurza", floating docks, mockups of planes "Antonov", armored vehicles "Bars", tanks BM "Oplot" and BTR-4, radar locator "Kolchuga-M".

President attended international exhibition of armaments IDEX-2015 - News from Ukraine - Embassy of Ukraine in the United States of America

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## Daneshmand

Bornubus said:


> No disrespect to Iranians.....
> 
> But you should invest in Latest tech like supersonic cruise missiles like onyx....coz Barak 8 has been developed to counter onyx....BTW these kh 55....kh 35.....kh 31... are formidable threat nevertheless.....india also has all these missiles seconded only to Brahmos .....
> 
> And now hypersonic Brahmos 2 is coming...by 2022.



That will come too. I guess Iran has got some Oniks from Syria and these will be reverse engineered eventually.

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## Bornubus

SOHEIL said:


> You sure this is our latest toy !?


I am not sure about your all Anti ship missiles....but even these khs are formidable threats


----------



## SOHEIL

Frogman said:


> Not exactly true. While their defence industry is taking a hit the Ukraine is still exporting, largely to nations that have or continue to field Soviet systems .
> 
> Ukrainian companies were present and Ukraine itself had a booth to sell its wares at IDEX 2015
> 
> IDEX 2015 - Ministry of Defence of Ukraine
> 
> 
> The Head of State has also examined the Ukrainian stand at the exhibition, which represents the products of the leading Ukrainian defense-industrial enterprises, namely State Corporate Group "Ukrspecexport", State Enterprise "Ukroboronservice", State Enterprise "Kyiv Armored Plant", State Enterprise "Research and Design Center of Shipbuilding" and State Enterprise "Experimental Design Bureau of General Aviation", Design Bureau "Antonov".
> 
> The Ukrainian exhibition includes full-size samples of armored vehicles "Dozor" and BTR-3E1, various types of anti-tank missiles ("Stugna" and "Combat"), anti-tank missile complex "Skif", guided artillery shell "Kvitnyk", cannon ZTM-2, radar locator "Delta", mockup of corvette "Hayduk", artillery boat "Gyurza", floating docks, mockups of planes "Antonov", armored vehicles "Bars", tanks BM "Oplot" and BTR-4, radar locator "Kolchuga-M".
> 
> President attended international exhibition of armaments IDEX-2015 - News from Ukraine - Embassy of Ukraine in the United States of America



Ukraine has changed ... you know !?

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## MarkusS

Daneshmand said:


> This is a safety mechanism if the deal does not go through.




It wont if Iran goes that way and acts aggressive. Develop what you want but cool down the propaganda.

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## Daneshmand

Shahryar Hedayati said:


> The planned operational range of the BrahMos-II has been restricted to 290 kilometres



Because international law prohibits transfer of technology or sale of missiles above 300 km of range. Brahmos uses Russian technology. Iran will eventually make something similar to it based on Russian Oniks from Syria. Probably with greater range.

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## SOHEIL

Bornubus said:


> I am not sure about your all Anti ship missiles....but even these khs are formidable threats



Anti ship !?

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## MarkusS

SOHEIL said:


> There is no cool down on your side ... so let us make it a little warmer !




We already lifted some sanctions.


----------



## Daneshmand

MarkusS said:


> It wont if Iran goes that way and acts aggressive. Develop what you want but cool down the propaganda.



Maybe. Let's see what happens. If deal goes through, all will be fine. If not, Iran must secure itself.

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## Bornubus

Shahryar Hedayati said:


> The planned operational range of the BrahMos-II has been restricted to 290 kilometres


Due to MTCR...but...it doesn't really matter when we have strong naval aviation...to fire brahmos 2....BTW some sources claim Brahmos range is 500+

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## SOHEIL

MarkusS said:


> It wont if Iran goes that way and acts aggressive. Develop what you want but cool down the propaganda.



Which part exactly !?

we just unveiled this big boy without any specs !

show me the propaganda part !!!

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## Daneshmand

MarkusS said:


> We already lifted some sanctions.



Very little. Italy stopped


Frogman said:


> Not exactly true. While their defence industry is taking a hit the Ukraine is still exporting, largely to nations that have or continue to field Soviet systems .
> 
> Ukrainian companies were present and Ukraine itself had a booth to sell its wares at IDEX 2015
> 
> IDEX 2015 - Ministry of Defence of Ukraine
> 
> 
> The Head of State has also examined the Ukrainian stand at the exhibition, which represents the products of the leading Ukrainian defense-industrial enterprises, namely State Corporate Group "Ukrspecexport", State Enterprise "Ukroboronservice", State Enterprise "Kyiv Armored Plant", State Enterprise "Research and Design Center of Shipbuilding" and State Enterprise "Experimental Design Bureau of General Aviation", Design Bureau "Antonov".
> 
> The Ukrainian exhibition includes full-size samples of armored vehicles "Dozor" and BTR-3E1, various types of anti-tank missiles ("Stugna" and "Combat"), anti-tank missile complex "Skif", guided artillery shell "Kvitnyk", cannon ZTM-2, radar locator "Delta", mockup of corvette "Hayduk", artillery boat "Gyurza", floating docks, mockups of planes "Antonov", armored vehicles "Bars", tanks BM "Oplot" and BTR-4, radar locator "Kolchuga-M".
> 
> President attended international exhibition of armaments IDEX-2015 - News from Ukraine - Embassy of Ukraine in the United States of America



Not anymore. You see, Ukraine is now under a pro-Western government and has been under Western influence since orange "revolution". And since as per international law, the sale or transfer of technology for missiles with ranges greater than 300 km is banned, Ukraine can not do this without making West angry.

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## The Last of us

Daneshmand said:


> Advertise to whom? As per international law, missiles above 300 km range can not be exported.



My point was due to the nature of the current Iranian defence establishment. They are not making hardware to advertise and sell these weapons. Of course in this case it would be prohibited anyway but in general, Iran has no reason to state the specifications of her systems. Why give information to the enemy for no reason.

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## SOHEIL

MarkusS said:


> We already lifted some sanctions.

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## Shahryar Hedayati

Bornubus said:


> BTW these kh 55....kh 35.....kh 31... are formidable threat nevertheless.....india also has all these missiles


kh55
*Used by*



Russia,



China,



Iran



Bornubus said:


> And now hypersonic Brahmos 2 is coming...by 2022.



The planned operational range of the BrahMos-II has been restricted to 290 kilometres

Too short for a cruise missile




Bornubus said:


> Due to MTCR...but...it doesn't really matter when we have strong naval aviation...to fire brahmos 2....BTW some sources claim Brahmos range is 500+



yes
but we need a hyper sonic cruise missile with range of 2000+ km missile for deterrence
is that possible??

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## Daneshmand

Bornubus said:


> Due to MTCR...but...it doesn't really matter when we have strong naval aviation...to fire brahmos 2....BTW some sources claim Brahmos range is 500+



The original Russian version on which Brahmos is based has a greater range, probably even greater than 500 km so the design does have the potential to be extended. But India is in a catch-22 situation. If they go ahead and increase the range, there will be international condemnation of both India and Russia. Iran is already condemned, so it does not care. 



The Last of us said:


> My point was due to the nature of the current Iranian defence establishment. They are not making hardware to advertise and sell these weapons. Of course in this case it would be prohibited anyway but in general, Iran has no reason to state the specifications of her systems. Why give information to the enemy for no reason.



Yes, that is another reason.

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## Bornubus

Shahryar Hedayati said:


> kh55
> *Used by*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia,
> 
> 
> 
> China,
> 
> 
> 
> Iran
> 
> 
> 
> The planned operational range of the BrahMos-II has been restricted to 290 kilometres
> 
> Too short for a cruise missile


Brahmos is not for some cheap reverse engineered crap roam around our neighbourhood....it would be used against 

1.HVT ..like Type 52 Destroyers

2.Infrastructure....like ....Dams,power plants,nuclear installations...especially situated close to our Western border


3.Air bases,Radar installation etc


I don't believe as authentic source....plZ visit Indian military pics thread....you can see some pics....of weapon systems which India never acknowledged

like S - 300

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## MarkusS

SOHEIL said:


> Which part exactly !?
> 
> we just unveiled this big boy without any specs !
> 
> show me the propaganda part !!!




Its hostile to show weapons while Israel cries that iran is warmongering and we try to show the oppossite. How does this build up trust?

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## Frogman

SOHEIL said:


> Ukraine has changed ... you know !?



It has, yet its policy on defence exports has not as its involvement in IDEX 2015 has shown. While I'm not here to argue semantics the Ukraine may be a realistic source for the import of weapons systems, including engines.



Daneshmand said:


> Not anymore. You see, Ukraine is now under a pro-Western government and has been under Western influence since orange "revolution". And since as per international law, the sale or transfer of technology for missiles with ranges greater than 300 km is banned, Ukraine can not do this without making West angry.



Even under the Russian backed government Ukraine exported systems to nations allied with the United States. While a missile can not be exported if it is capable of travelling a certain range its components can be sold alone, for instance the engines of BM or CM. While legally it may be difficult to export systems due to armament restrictions or sanctions on a nation or just universal restrictions there are ways around it and that is why nations such as NK and Iran which are very much pariahs can get their hand on systems usually seen in conventions such as SOFEX and IDEX.

The semantics are irrelevant really, I was merely trying to point out that despite instability the Ukraine still can export defence products (and has).


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## Surenas

cabatli_53 said:


> Is there an obligation to achieve them in order to kindly express personnel opinions in a defence forum ? Instead of bashing the members talking about this thing, Why don't you enlighten us regarding detail informations, differences than its original clone, the guidance which will deliver this missile up to dedicated targets precisiously...etc ? Can you tell us something different than "We are great" like sentences ?



You don't know because you don't know. 500 knows, but doesn't want to know.

Like I said, its more likely that Iran already had this missile for years in operational capability before they decided to unveil it. How would I prove that? Everything points out to that. Iranian claims of already having a 2500km+ cruise missile in its arsenal, Israeli officials and missile experts openly expressing their concern of such missile and its implications and the fact that Iran is pouring massive funds into missile technology. You may want to listen to Uzi Rubin, Tal Inbar and other experts who have praised and spoken about a huge increase in Iranian missile capabilities.

Iran is not going to unveil all its specs to pleasure fanboys on military forums. The fact that it has unveiled this missile today, publishing clear photos of the missile and its firing, is probably now offsetting alarm bells in the defence and intelligence department of regional and international countries. They have always worried about this development, but now finally have prove. When Iran shows it, they understand it. The fact that you don't is not important.

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## Daneshmand

Lets see when this will be reverse engineered: P-800 Oniks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## cabatli_53

The Last of us said:


> My point was due to the nature of the current Iranian defence establishment. They are not making hardware to advertise and sell these weapons. Of course in this case it would be prohibited anyway but in general, Iran has no reason to state the specifications of her systems. Why give information to the enemy for no reason.



Nonsense reason. The people who is willing to find specifications of missiles Iran unveils, can easily do it on net by looking originals (With a simple logic, Iranian produced should be a bit downgraded one cause of being copy of original). If Iran talks about providing deterrence enough against enemies, You should introduce something different than What you are doing at present because Your achievements are coming one after another, introducing many similar kind of missiles for same purposes and It is an absolutely abnormal condition for a development project because The countries you see as rival/enemy, are spending their valuable 7-8 years to develop original missiles that you claimed as your copy. In this conditions and speed, The Iranian missiles/systems are believed either original's introduction with paintjob or way smaller /less range than original one or mock up...etc That's the reason why You are meeting such absurd comments of some members who wants to see something more than What you are talking about systems.

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## 500

The Last of us said:


> "There is no reason to suggest Iranian clone is better", What are you mumblling on about? You're judging this missile by the fact it looks the same to the kh-55, thus in your 'brain' you deduced it must be the same? Consider every Iranian weapon we have seen that was based on upgrades, when we've seen the internal components, they have been vastly more modern than the systems they were based on. This is common sense kid. The technology Iran has today, especially in filed of electronics, computers, it is much more advanced than primitive ones used during the making of the original kh-55. If you can't see this then your mental capacity is the barrier here.


Again personal attacks. X-55 is Soviet technology from 80-es. Here some examples of Soviet technology from same era:






























Kindly tell us what makes u believe that u are more advanced?


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## SOHEIL

MarkusS said:


> Its hostile to show weapons while Israel cries that iran is warmongering and we try to show the oppossite. How does this build up trust?



When a whore crying you have to punch her in face ... if not, she is gonna cry continuously !

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## Bornubus

@Shahryar Hedayati


Yes Range of Brahmos is short as its supersonic...

BUT

For long range 1000 km + we have this

Nirbhay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Daneshmand

Frogman said:


> It has, yet its policy on defence exports has not as its involvement in IDEX 2015 has shown. While I'm not here to argue semantics the Ukraine may be a realistic source for the import of weapons systems, including engines.
> 
> 
> 
> Even under the Russian backed government Ukraine exported systems to nations allied with the United States. While a missile can not be exported if it is capable of travelling a certain range its components can be sold alone, for instance the engines of BM or CM. While legally it may be difficult to export systems due to armament restrictions or sanctions on a nation or just universal restrictions there are ways around it and that is why nations such as NK and Iran which are very much pariahs can get their hand on systems usually seen in conventions such as SOFEX and IDEX.
> 
> The semantics are irrelevant really, I was merely trying to point out that despite instability the Ukraine still can export defence products (and has).



Well, as long as you have it, then who cares, right? At any rate Iran is not a signatory to MTCR and had signed the deal for these with Ukraine when Ukraine was not: Missile Technology Control Regime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Neither is Egypt. So do you want it or not?

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## Frogman

Daneshmand said:


> Well, as long as you have it, then who care, right? At any rate Iran is not a signatory to MTCR and had signed the deal for these with Ukraine when Ukraine was not: Missile Technology Control Regime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Neither is Egypt. So do you want it or not?



Depends if it's any good.


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## Daneshmand

Frogman said:


> Depends if it's any good.



It is better than having nothing.

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## Shahryar Hedayati

Bornubus said:


> @Shahryar Hedayati
> 
> 
> Yes Range of Brahmos is short as its supersonic...
> 
> BUT
> 
> For long range we have this
> 
> Nirbhay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Bornubus

Shahryar Hedayati said:


>


May our countries...learn from each other...i see ...strong cooperation in the fields of

Space tech.

Pharmaceutical sector

IT

Oil and Gas exploration 

Peace bro....

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## Surenas

TurAr said:


> You asked for it and he delivered
> 
> You guys seem to be convinced that this giant dildo is just another breakthrough in Iran's technological advancement and not just another propaganda for the pleasure of the fanboys, even though there is zero information about its components and specifications. But there you are, the fanboys, filling that gap with empty talks as always. Accusing those who DARE to question these so-called achivements with being a troll, and attacking them in every way. Yeah, whatever...



Its not about us being convinced of anything. The breakthrough was claimed by Israeli officials and experts long before Iran unveiled it. Back in the days, during the Cold War, both the US and SU did not (always) publish the components and specifications of their weapon systems as well, and even today many countries are reluctant to unveil the specs of their advanced weaponry. Even if Iran did publish its specs, it would hardly have been a proof for you guys, isn't? Iran doesn't have to proof anyone on the internet. These unveilings are not intended to convince butthurt-Turks, but regional and international states. For them, these pictures are enough. Probably in combination with real intelligence about Iran working on reverse-engineering the Kh-55 for quite some time. 

I don't understand why Iranian members would waist time to lecture you about Iran's missile capabilities.

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## SOHEIL

TurAr said:


> You asked for it and he delivered
> 
> You guys seem to be convinced that this giant dildo is just another breakthrough in Iran's technological advancement and not just another propaganda for the pleasure of the fanboys, even though there is zero information about its components and specifications. But there you are, the fanboys, filling that gap with empty talks as always. Accusing those who DARE to question these so-called achivements with being a troll, and attacking them in every way. Yeah, whatever...



You asked for it

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## Daneshmand

Surenas said:


> Its not about us being convinced of anything. The breakthrough was claimed by Israeli officials and experts long before Iran unveiled it. Back in the days, during the Cold War, both the US and SU did not (always) publish the components and specifications of their weapon systems as well, and even today many countries are reluctant to unveil the specs of their advanced weaponry. Even if Iran did publish its specs, it would hardly have been a proof for you guys, isn't?
> 
> I don't understand why Iranian members would waist time to lecture you about Iran's missile capabilities.



Ah, just leave it. They have inferiority complex. They do not have 2500+ km ballistic and cruise missiles, space launchers, and no nuclear enrichment, so they feel inferior and behave like this.

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## Militant Atheist

MarkusS said:


> We already lifted some sanctions.



We Iranians are very loud people man

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## 500

BTW, while Sumar uses RK-55 booster the missile itself is air based Kh-55 (which Iran obtained from Ukraine):


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## Surenas

Daneshmand said:


> Ah, just leave it. They have inferiority complex. They do not have 2500+ km ballistic and cruise missiles, space launchers, and no nuclear enrichment, so they feel inferior and behave like this.



Turkey is not the only one which lacks a long-range cruise missile. Most world countries do not have such cruise missile in their arsenal. Turkey is hardly a concurrent to Iran when it comes to this issue. Let them worry about some tomb in Syria and projecting power with US equipment or European/Korean weapon systems produced under license in a 'joint venture'.

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## Minute by Minute

I am thinking, that it is the first time, I talk to you Yavar, so big hello,
I have been admiring you for some time now for your Work defending our nation at forums like this. I have even been happy about your English improving too. It is important for us to be able to better our language skills to be more effective defending our country.
People are sometimes overwhelmed, when trying to learn a new language, but the truth of the matter is, that with only 500 Words a person can manage life in a foreign language. Looking at it this way makes it easier to cope with its vastness. I once learned a language by concentrating on reading a few pages in a book. I learned the meaning of every Word, spelling and then the grammer used on those few pages. After than I could read and write in the language. It is that easy!
But that is not why I write this to you. The truth is, that someone like me needs people like you or haman in forums like this. Let me be the bad guy, the loud and the aggressive one. I am like a teflon, and when it comes to our enemies propaganda, my mind is the chinese wall, but if people meet someone like me all over this forum, they may not like it and their impression of all of us will be perhaps negative. That must be balanced with you or haman or the others being kind, funny or informative and open otherwise none of us gain much.
Believe me that is how our enemies cyberarmies do it!
I am working on a comment about how they Work in forums like this and will post it later.
With regards and thanks for all your hard Work.

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## cabatli_53

Daneshmand said:


> Ah, just leave it. They have inferiority complex. They do not have 2500+ km ballistic and cruise missiles, space launchers, and no nuclear enrichment, so they feel inferior and behave like this.



Turkey needs to develop 2500km missiles to hit your capital ? If We had 5000km, It means Turkey would be ahead of Iran in terms of deep striking ability ? What about high res. satellite which is going to feed guidance with images ? What about generation of guidance you use? EW resistance of missiles ? What you know about your "copies" that You claim ahead or back of that or this country ?

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## Surenas

500 said:


> BTW, while Sumar uses RK-55 booster the missile itself is air based Kh-55 (which Iran obtained from Ukraine):



The booster looks different. Also, any proof of Iran having acquired RK-55 components? Besides, if it works it works.

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## Frogman

Daneshmand said:


> It is better than having nothing.



Not particularly.

When Egypt was experimenting and producing ballistic missiles in the 60s (Al-Zafar 350+ km Al-Kahar 600 km Al-Raid 1000 km) it was simply a waste of resources. While they were a useful propaganda tool they were practically useless militarily. They were inaccurate, and didn't have warheads capable of inflicting much if any damage, internally the Egyptian Armed Forces was deeply unimpressed with them.

Those projects distracted funding away from necessities such as air defence systems or even bunkers for our aircraft, which resulted in the calamity that was the 1967 war. After the defeat the Soviets effectively blackmailed Cairo into stopping its armament programs in return for their systems, as such perhaps the most important project in Egypt's history was terminated, the Helwan-300.

Why would I waste my resources on something that is not effective in the slightest when I can spend it on enhancing other necessities?

While Egypt's missile arsenal is modest the overall program is sophisticated and does encompass all of Egypt's regional threats. So having nothing is not particularly accurate.

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## 500

Surenas said:


> The booster looks different. Also, any proof of Iran having acquired RK-55 components? Besides, if it works it works.


Not just components, but entire missiles:

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2005_05/Ukraine
NBC: Ukraine leader confirms weapons sales - World news | NBC News

I am sure they transferred technology and engines too (kh-55 engines are produced in Ukraine).


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## TurAr

Surenas said:


> Its not about us being convinced of anything. The breakthrough was claimed by Israeli officials and experts long before Iran unveiled it. Back in the days, during the Cold War, both the US and SU did not (always) publish the components and specifications of their weapon systems as well, and even today many countries are reluctant to unveil the specs of their advanced weaponry. Even if Iran did publish its specs, it would hardly have been a proof for you guys, isn't?
> 
> I don't understand why Iranian members would waist time to lecture you about Iran's missile capabilities.



Yeah according to those same Israeli officials Iraq was having breakthroughs on a daily basis back in the day but that's not the point. As you just happen to admit, there is no information about this clone which could suggest that it is superior to its original. Yet, we see mullah fanboys claiming it to be so. When people ask "how come", they simply say "it must be" and then comes the personal attacks...


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## Surenas

500 said:


> Not just components, but entire missiles:
> 
> http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2005_05/Ukraine



There was actually proof for Iran having received Kh-55 cruise missiles. 



> I am sure they transferred technology and engines too (kh-55 engines are produced in Ukraine).



There is not a single proof for this claim. No reports or anything. So why would reports of Iran having acquired Kh-55 missiles come forward, but supposedly other components of other systems not?

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## Bornubus

@500

Sir As Barak 8 has been developed to counter supersonic missiles...do you think that kh 55 poses any threat to your navy...or other targets?


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## Surenas

TurAr said:


> Yeah according to those same Israeli officials Iraq was having breakthroughs on a daily basis back in the day but that's not the point. As you just happen to admit, there is no information about this clone which could suggest that it is superior to its original. Yet, we see mullah fanboys claiming it to be so. When people ask "how come", they simply say "it must be" and then comes the personal attacks...



People did not say 'it must be'. They made logical arguments about development in technology, which Iran is familiar with, such as avionics, electronics, material used on these systems, etc. For me, if this Soumar has the same capabilities as the original Kh-55, which is likely, then it would be a huge breakthrough for Iran's missile capabilities, and would give Iran significant capabilities in a field which most countries in the world lack.

Only a matter of time before Israeli missile experts give us an update about this new missile. I give more value to their assessments than to yours.

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## xenon54 out

cabatli_53 said:


> Turkey needs to develop 2500km missiles to hit your capital ? If We had 5000km, It means Turkey would be ahead of Iran in terms of deep striking ability ? What about high res. satellite which is going to feed guidance with images ? What about generation of gidance you use? EW resistance of missiles ?


Its like a d*ck measuring contest, some belive bigger is better, it doesnt matter if it fulfills its purpose.

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## 500

Bornubus said:


> @500
> 
> Sir As Barak 8 has been developed to counter supersonic missiles...do you think that kh 55 poses any threat to your navy...or other targets?


Kh-55 is big and subsonic and very easy target. The only problem that due to low trajectory u can not notice it in time (if there are no AWACS in the air). Plus Kh-55 is not designed to attack ships.

Syria acquired recently supersonic Yakhont anti ship missiles. That means Iran also got them for sure. They are very serious threat to ships.



Surenas said:


> There was actually proof for Iran having received Kh-55 cruise missiles.
> 
> There is not a single proof for this claim. No reports or anything. So why would reports of Iran having acquired Kh-55 missiles come forward, but supposedly other components of other systems not?


You think Ukrainians agreed to sell missiles (wich against the international law) but refused to sell engines (which is not against the international law) ?

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## TurAr

Surenas said:


> People did not say 'it must be'. They made logical arguments about development in technology, which Iran is familiar with, such as avionics, electronics, material used on these systems, etc. For me, if this Soumar has the same capabilities as the original Kh-55, which is likely, then it would be a huge breakthrough for Iran's missile capabilities, and would give Iran significant capabilities in a field which most countries in the world lack.
> 
> Only a matter of time before Israeli missile experts give us an update about this new missile. I give more value to their assessments than to yours.



I couldn't see any logical arguments. Besides, with this many unknowns any argument regarding the capabilities of this clone would be no more than empty talk just like how it is on most of the Iranian clones and mock-ups.

@500 Who are these "Israeli missile experts"? Mullah fanboys seem to admire them.


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## haman10

cabatli_53 said:


> Turkey needs to develop 2500km missiles to hit your capital ? If We had 5000km, It means Turkey would be ahead of Iran in terms of deep striking ability ? What about high res. satellite which is going to feed guidance with images ? What about generation of guidance you use? EW resistance of missiles ? What you know about your "copies" that You claim ahead or back of that or this country ?





xenon54 said:


> Its like a d*ck measuring contest, some belive bigger is better, it doesnt matter if it fulfills its purpose.


Did anyone invite you two butthurt here ? did we talk about turkey ? how does this KH-55 cardboard copy even concern 2 trolls in turkey ? when it comes to 500 i get it , its directly pointed at his butt . but you two numbnuts are dancing here for what ?

what d!ck measuring are u talking about ? Turkey is the best of the best . turkey owns everyone . happy now ?

stop posting shyte at every thread in Iranian section now and GTFO here .

You are no one's concern , your section is filled with the same bullcrap that you feed yourselves everyday .

just take a look at this shyte : 

"It means Turkey would be ahead of Iran in terms of deep striking ability ? What about high res. satellite which is going to feed guidance with images ? What about generation of guidance you use? EW resistance of missiles ? What you know about your "copies" that You claim ahead or back of that or this country ?"

@Hakan buddy consider our pack revoked

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## Surenas

TurAr said:


> I couldn't see any logical arguments. Besides, with this many unknowns any arguments regarding the capabilities of this clone would be no more than empty talk just like how it is on most of the Iranian clones and mock-ups.



A clone may sound nice, but its a highly effective and deadly weapon system which Iran now manages to produce locally. It doesn't really matter where the technology comes from. Reverse-engineering is still a meticulous and complex industry, which only a handful states in the world have managed to master. Iranian clones of foreign weapon systems hit an Israeli warship in 2006, partially destroyed Israeli tanks in that same war as well, to such extent that they couldn't function on the battlefield anymore.

@500 Who are these "Israeli missile experts"? Mullah fanboys seem to admire them.[/QUOTE]

Go watch these vids, then come back:

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## Hassan Al-Somal

boomslang said:


> One more of the many Iranian bullshits. Cardboard and duct tape.



I thought you were banned, buddy; however, it seems this Iranian cruise missile test has waken you up from a deep comma. Whatever the case, this missile from Iran keeps your usurper and apartheid entity (Israel) with deep worries.

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## Surenas

500 said:


> You think Ukrainians agreed to sell missiles (wich against the international law) but refused to sell engines (which is not against the international law) ?



They didn't sell all the components, remember, like the warheads? Even if Iran has managed to get some engines, its likely that they have been reverse-engineered as well. Also, you spoke about RK-55 boosters, which Iran has not received, according to open sources.

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## Bornubus

A thread about kh 55 is likely to become 'featured'....with nationalistic BS from Atleast 5 countries....

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## ResurgentIran

You know its funny. People say that Iran is irrelevant.
Then how is it that a tread about a missile can attract so much attention and generate 19 pages in less than few hours?
Does Iran occupy your mind this much? 
Iran seem to be the center of attention in this entire forum. lol

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## ResurgentIran

MarkusS said:


> Its hostile to show weapons while Israel cries that iran is warmongering and we try to show the oppossite. How does this build up trust?



Dude, if Iran so much as farts, Israel will sound the alarm bell.
Get a grip of yourselves and stop catering to the apartheid regime.

As a sovereign state, it is fully within Iran's rights to arm itself and deter any agressive moves.

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## Surenas

*Iran brings Europe within range with new cruise missile*

In a development significant both for its timing and its content, Iran unveiled on Sunday a new cruise missile that it claimed would extend the Islamic Republic’s range by 25 percent, placing locales as distant as Budapest, Warsaw, and Athens within striking distance.

[…]

The Soumar missile, as it is known in Iran, is a copy of the Soviet Kh-55, which was stolen from the Ukraine in 2001 and apparently reverse engineered in Iran.

*Tal Inbar, the head of space research at the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, called the new cruise missile and the increased range it represents [2,500 kilometers] “a dramatic shift.”*

He said in an email statement that the Soumar, like other cruise missiles, flies at a low altitude, making it hard for radar to detect.

The payload the missile is able to carry is reportedly in the 200-kilogram range, meaning that it is nowhere near capable of delivering a nuclear device.

*Nonetheless, it is a significant development, said Inbar, who has monitored the Iranian missile development program for years.*

The inclusion of European capitals within Iran’s missile range triggers further discussion about US plans to station missile defense systems in Europe. Russia has long contended that Iranian missiles threaten neither Europe nor the US, Inbar wrote, and therefore it is “a very interesting move — if it was taken without Russian consent.”

Moreover, the unveiling of these new missiles, a decision almost certainly approved by Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenai, taken as the nuclear negotiations reach a pivotal juncture at the end of March, “is a significant signal,” Inbar wrote, “especially in light of the Iranian proclamations that the matter of missiles would not be up for negotiation.”

Iran brings Europe within range with new cruise missile | The Times of Israel

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## TurAr

The dreams of the mullah fanboys shatter ones again by those pesky foreigners. The burden of not having anything solid to counter the reasonable questions and criticisms might be too much for them. So as always, they try to dismiss them by trash talking. The past 2 pages of this thread is a perfect example to that which might be used as a reference in the future.


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## Surenas

TurAr said:


> The dreams of the mullah fanboys shatter ones again by those pesky foreigners. The burden of not having anything solid to counter the reasonable questions and criticisms might be too much for them. So as always, they try to dismiss them by trash talking. The past 2 pages of this thread is a perfect example to that which might be used as a reference in the future.



''*Tal Inbar, the head of space research at the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, called the new cruise missile and the increased range it represents [2,500 kilometers] “a dramatic shift.”*
*
''Nonetheless, it is a significant development, said Inbar, who has monitored the Iranian missile development program for years.''
*
Who are you?

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## MarkusS

All this empty propaganda makes me think we should give Iran the opportunity to show what it really can...such a conflict would be decided within days...


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## haman10

Surenas said:


> Who are you?


A troll in short .

a butthurt to be more specific .

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## The Last of us

cabatli_53 said:


> Nonsense reason. The people who is willing to find specifications of missiles Iran unveils, can easily do it on net by looking originals (With a simple logic, Iranian produced should be a bit downgraded one cause of being copy of original). If Iran talks about providing deterrence enough against enemies, You should introduce something different than What you are doing at present because Your achievements are coming one after another, introducing many similar kind of missiles for same purposes and It is an absolutely abnormal condition for a development project because The countries you see as rival/enemy, are spending their valuable 7-8 years to develop original missiles that you claimed as your copy. In this conditions and speed, The Iranian missiles/systems are believed either original's introduction with paintjob or way smaller /less range than original one or mock up...etc That's the reason why You are meeting such absurd comments of some members who wants to see something more than What you are talking about systems.



You call my post nonsense response and yet this is what you reply with?
You don't have a single fact to back up your claims nor do you have any idea what is going on here. This systems you see are upgrades, they are not mere complete copies, thus, your claims about them being downgraded is pure none-sense. What evidence do you have for these statements? Here, compare the shalamche missile to the hawk missile:

Original hawk seeker:






Iranian shalamche:





Now a fanboy like you would had at some pointed made a statement that Iranian version of HAWK would have been downgraded version. You people seem to lack the ability to undergo even a little bit of rational thinking.


Futhermore, you did not even properly address my point. I said Iran has no reason to state the specific specs of her systems. Why does Iran need to do that? To satisfy fanboys like you?

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## The Last of us

500 said:


> Again personal attacks. X-55 is Soviet technology from 80-es. Here some examples of Soviet technology from same era:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kindly tell us what makes u believe that u are more advanced?



How is this even a reply to my comment? All of the hardware you posted have primitive electronic and computing power and software etc to what Iran has today. Do you know not understand this? How dumb can you get?

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## MarkusS

The Last of us said:


> How is this even reply to my comment? All of the hardware you posted have primitive electronic and computing power and software etc to what Iran has today. Do you know not understand this? How dumb can you get?



I saw an Energia rocket there. One of most powerful and complex ever build. Iran cant even shot a monkey into space.

I dont like russia...but compared to Iran its like Japan compared to Somalia.


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## The Last of us

MarkusS said:


> I saw an Energia rocket there. One of most powerful and complex ever build. Iran cant even shot a monkey into space.
> 
> I dont like russia...but compared to Iran its like Japan compared to Somalia.



What does a rocket engine have to do with computing,electronics and software?
Rockets and rocket engines are something else. I was not talking about rockets.

You're a Philipino pretending to be " pure European" i.e German/Italian. I find it hard to take you seriously.

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## The Last of us

MarkusS said:


> Wrong, im a god pretending to be a human, Beside that You did talk about rockets. You neither have the engines nor the computing power.  We know what you have. If we wouldn't know we could not sabotage it that easily...like StuxNet.  A blown up nuclear facility here, a assasinated scientist there...then mysterious events like mass destruction of centrifuges...Thats amusing to watch from outside.


Why did you finish writing so early? I was starting to enjoy your fantasy.
Anyway kid, time for you to go to bed.

By the way, posting your pictures in your avatar etc will not help your case. If you're going to claim to be German/Italian, at least Photoshop your pictures.

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## ResurgentIran

TurAr said:


> Yet, we see *mullah fanboys *claiming it to be so.





TurAr said:


> @500 Who are these "Israeli missile experts"? *Mullah fanboys* seem to admire them.



Mullah fanboys this, mullah fanboys that. Seriously, why is it that you seemingly always default to "mullah fanboy" when countering someone in argument? You complain of personal insults from other side, but how are you any better?
There are people who are either indifferent or even outright hostile to the mullahs, but still stand up for the nation state of Iran and defend its achievements (regardless of what those are), because those achievements are not a result of any mullahs but ordinary hardworking Iranians, be it in military, university or other scientific institutions.
Im not talking specifically about this missile, but just generally.

Can you comprehend this basic fact, Erdoganistani donkey?
Now I know you are against Erdogan, based on previous posts I have seen from you.
But I think you get the point I was making. If I and the rest of my compatriots are "mullah fanboys", then so are you an Erdoganistani donkey of equal proportions.

Expand your vocabulary a bit beyond "mullah fanboys, mullah fanboys, mullah fanboys".
Its getting repetitive.

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## cabatli_53

The Last of us said:


> You call my post nonsense response and yet this is what you reply with?
> You don't have a single fact to back up your claims nor do you have any idea what is going on here. This systems you see are upgrades, they are not mere complete copies, thus, your claims about them being downgraded is pure none-sense. What evidence do you have for these statements? Here, compare the shalamche missile to the hawk missile:
> 
> Original hawk seeker:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian shalamche:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now a fanboy like you would had at some pointed made a statement that Iranian version of HAWK would have been downgraded version. You people seem to lack the ability to undergo even a little bit of rational thinking.
> 
> 
> Futhermore, you did not even properly address my point. I said Iran has no reason to state the specific specs of her systems. Why does Iran need to do that? To satisfy fanboys like you?




Hawk missile was developed in 1960's and there are many different variants of missiles/radars which is being revealed into world market until now and I think Iranian variant that was copied from original, is quite old maybe MIM-23B or C. It seems that Some subystems are replaced with home made derivatives but This doesn't mean It is better than original because The countries which have already been using Hawk missiles, operates HAWK-XXI variants that is considered best HAWK missiles/radar system. In additions, There is a general logic in such discussions. If you had infastructure enough to design/develop a better missile than HAWK, You wouldn't have needed to one by one copy others' products. In parallel to this logic I expect that You wouldn't claim Iranian HAWK is better than XXI...

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## MarkusS

The Last of us said:


> Why did you finish writing so early? I was starting to enjoy your fantasy.
> Anyway kid, time for you to go to bed.
> 
> By the way, posting your pictures in your avatar etc will not help your case. If you're going to claim to be German/Italian, at least Photoshop your pictures.



I wonder why you are still online. I heared you guys have common electricity blackouts. 

As for the rest of this nonsense here: 

What does iran try to achieve with this? all those mock ups, models and so on. The world laughs about it and nobody is impressed. I mean is it targeted only at home? Because it definitly does not bite here.

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## ResurgentIran

MarkusS said:


> I wonder why you are still online. I heared you guys have common electricity blackouts.
> 
> As for the rest of this nonsense here:
> 
> What does iran try to achieve with this? all those mock ups, models and so on. The world laughs about it and nobody is impressed. I mean is it targeted only at home? Because it definitly does not bite here.



So if you laugh at it and dismiss it as being a mock-up/models, then there is no reason for you to tell us to "cool down" or saying that we are being aggressive.
You are contradicting yourself.



MarkusS said:


> Its hostile to show weapons while Israel cries that iran is warmongering and we try to show the oppossite. How does this build up trust?

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## Daneshmand

MarkusS said:


> I heared you guys have common electricity blackouts.



Where did you get this? Lying as always. Iran does not have blackouts. With 75,000 MW of installed capacity, Iran is well awash with electricity. But then from some one who can create this sick thread and writing sick things about suffering human beings, nothing else can be expected: How italy can profit from the break down in libya | Page 4



cabatli_53 said:


> Hawk missile was developed in 1960's and there are many different variants of missiles/radars which is being revealed into world market until now and I think Iranian variant that was copied from original, is quite old maybe MIM-23B or C. It seems that Some subystems are replaced with home made derivatives but This doesn't mean It is better than original because The countries which have already been using Hawk missiles, operates HAWK-XXI variants that is considered best HAWK missiles/radar system. In additions, There is a general logic in such discussions. If you had infastructure enough to design/develop a better missile than HAWK, You wouldn't have needed to one by one copy others' products. In parallel to this logic I expect that You wouldn't claim Iranian HAWK is better than XXI...



All HAWK versions are now obsolete. Even the ones upgraded by US, such as the Turkish HAWK system. That is why you are begging China to sell you a system as US is not supplying you with newer systems and because you can not develop it yourselves. Iran is atleast trying. And this is the difference.

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## 500

The Last of us said:


> How is this even a reply to my comment? All of the hardware you posted have primitive electronic and computing power and software etc to what Iran has today. Do you know not understand this? How dumb can you get?


S-300 had primitive electronic? Where is Iranian superior equivalent? 

Nebo radars which u are buying from Russia are also from 80-es.

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## cabatli_53

Daneshmand said:


> Where did you get this? Lying as always. Iran does not have blackouts. With 75,000 MW of installed capacity, Iran is well awash with electricity. But then from some one who can create this sick thread and writing sick things about suffering human beings, nothing else can be expected: How italy can profit from the break down in libya | Page 4
> 
> 
> 
> All HAWK versions are now obsolete. *Even the ones upgraded by US, such as the Turkish HAWK system. *That is why *you are begging China* to sell you a system as* US is not supplying you with newer systems* and because you can not develop it yourselves. Iran is atleast trying. And this is the difference.



Turkey doesn't beg anybody but wants to develop all kind of SAM missiles including Long altitude. US is also willing to sell their solutions but It is Chinese proposal selected by Turkish officials. Contrary to our officials, Industry wants to develop domestic equivalent of Chinese system within 7 years so making pressure political wing to cancel meetings to immediately commence development of project called HisaR-U like they have already been doing for Low (Hisar-A) and medium altitude (Hisar-O) SAM missile projects. (Want to learn more, type the names of projects on google)

The point I agree with you is Even If you put the best strategic sub-components on a 1960 designed missile, It will not provide much of the limits of first design requirements so Turkish HAWX XXI is also considered as obsolete among us. Did you realize that What We considered as obsolete is the target you want to reach with copying Hawks. That's the worst thing of reverse-engineering based industrial roadway until you matured enough to design a missile which is solely developed to meet own requirements in accordance with your armed forces target perceptions. The Turkish industry You are underestimating, is doing it at present to replace HAWK-XXI under the code name of Hisar-O.

Don't drive the subject into off-topic matters please.

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## Archdemon

The SC said:


> That stands for the old KH-55 that terrified your high ranking militaries with the news of Iran having it. Today, Iran can make Ballistic and semi-ballistic missiles with 1m accuracy, so expect this one to have the same 1m accuracy.


Funny, CEP <1meter hilarious!


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## scythian500

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 200570
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +2,500 km


Dahanet abad mard...mordam az khande ba in yaroo ke gozashti lisak mikhore!!!
Meaning:
Hail for you man! I died of laughing when I saw this candy liker man!! It just matches magically with the question and the answer...

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## lonelyman

haman10 said:


> @Serpentine get this lazy a$$ troll outta my face man .
> 
> this thread is again fvcked up by some numbnut dumb a$$es from our butthurt neighboring section



A jealous butthurt Turk, don't waste time putting sense into them.



haman10 said:


> Did anyone invite you two butthurt here ? did we talk about turkey ? how does this KH-55 cardboard copy even concern 2 trolls in turkey ? when it comes to 500 i get it , its directly pointed at his butt . but you two numbnuts are dancing here for what ?
> 
> what d!ck measuring are u talking about ? Turkey is the best of the best . turkey owns everyone . happy now ?
> 
> stop posting shyte at every thread in Iranian section now and GTFO here .
> 
> You are no one's concern , your section is filled with the same bullcrap that you feed yourselves everyday .
> 
> just take a look at this shyte :
> 
> "It means Turkey would be ahead of Iran in terms of deep striking ability ? What about high res. satellite which is going to feed guidance with images ? What about generation of guidance you use? EW resistance of missiles ? What you know about your "copies" that You claim ahead or back of that or this country ?"
> 
> @Hakan buddy consider our pack revoked


Of course they are jealous, because they can't accomplish Iranian did despite in western camp forever



Surenas said:


> *Iran brings Europe within range with new cruise missile*
> 
> In a development significant both for its timing and its content, Iran unveiled on Sunday a new cruise missile that it claimed would extend the Islamic Republic’s range by 25 percent, placing locales as distant as Budapest, Warsaw, and Athens within striking distance.
> 
> […]
> 
> The Soumar missile, as it is known in Iran, is a copy of the Soviet Kh-55, which was stolen from the Ukraine in 2001 and apparently reverse engineered in Iran.
> 
> *Tal Inbar, the head of space research at the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, called the new cruise missile and the increased range it represents [2,500 kilometers] “a dramatic shift.”*
> 
> He said in an email statement that the Soumar, like other cruise missiles, flies at a low altitude, making it hard for radar to detect.
> 
> The payload the missile is able to carry is reportedly in the 200-kilogram range, meaning that it is nowhere near capable of delivering a nuclear device.
> 
> *Nonetheless, it is a significant development, said Inbar, who has monitored the Iranian missile development program for years.*
> 
> The inclusion of European capitals within Iran’s missile range triggers further discussion about US plans to station missile defense systems in Europe. Russia has long contended that Iranian missiles threaten neither Europe nor the US, Inbar wrote, and therefore it is “a very interesting move — if it was taken without Russian consent.”
> 
> Moreover, the unveiling of these new missiles, a decision almost certainly approved by Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenai, taken as the nuclear negotiations reach a pivotal juncture at the end of March, “is a significant signal,” Inbar wrote, “especially in light of the Iranian proclamations that the matter of missiles would not be up for negotiation.”
> 
> Iran brings Europe within range with new cruise missile | The Times of Israel


Congrats, Iran is on fire

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## Mike_Brando

SOHEIL said:


>


Man that's a real beauty!I just wish that the Govt. of India goes ahead and purchase a few dozens of these deadly cruise missiles from Iran.Anyways congratulation to all the Iranian members of this forum for this brilliant achievement, specially to @haman10 and you

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## Abii

Daneshmand said:


> Where did you get this? Lying as always.* Iran does not have blackouts.* With 75,000 MW of installed capacity, Iran is well awash with electricity. But then from some one who can create this sick thread and writing sick things about suffering human beings, nothing else can be expected: How italy can profit from the break down in libya | Page 4
> 
> 
> 
> All HAWK versions are now obsolete. Even the ones upgraded by US, such as the Turkish HAWK system. That is why you are begging China to sell you a system as US is not supplying you with newer systems and because you can not develop it yourselves. Iran is atleast trying. And this is the difference.


Oh please. Growing up we had weekly blackouts. 

"bargh raft" was a common phrase in every household when I was growing up. Every home also has gas lights for blackout situations. 

The only person lying here is you not Markus.

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## ptldM3

The Last of us said:


> How is this even a reply to my comment? All of the hardware you posted have primitive electronic and computing power and software etc to what Iran has today. Do you know not understand this? How dumb can you get?




For one, you have not taken apart and studied the electronics in any of the mentioned platforms so where do you get this from? I do not know anything about Iranian capabilities and i do not doubt Iran but i know you are underestimating Soviet technology and the decades of experience, trial and error and improvements that has gone into those 1980's technologies.






The Last of us said:


> *What does a rocket engine have to do with computing,electronics and software?*
> Rockets and rocket engines are something else. I was not talking about rockets.
> 
> You're a Philipino pretending to be " pure European" i.e German/Italian. I find it hard to take you seriously.




It has* a lot* to do with rocket engines. Those rocket engines are more complex then you can imagine. Fuel system management, ignition, turbo management, ect are needed and crucial. Then there are sensors that monitor fuel pressure, oil pressure, heat, oxogen/nitrogen pressure, vibration sensors ect. All of those computers/sensors are working together so the rocket engine works properly.

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## lonelyman

Daneshmand said:


> Where did you get this? Lying as always. Iran does not have blackouts. With 75,000 MW of installed capacity, Iran is well awash with electricity. But then from some one who can create this sick thread and writing sick things about suffering human beings, nothing else can be expected: How italy can profit from the break down in libya | Page 4
> 
> 
> 
> All HAWK versions are now obsolete. Even the ones upgraded by US, such as the Turkish HAWK system. That is why you are begging China to sell you a system as US is not supplying you with newer systems and because you can not develop it yourselves. Iran is atleast trying. And this is the difference.


Don't blame them, their pipe dream ottoman empire burst facing reality , jealous and mad as hell because they can't accomplish what u guys did.

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## scythian500

SOHEIL said:


> So we are not isolated as you say !
> 
> imported from Ukraine !?
> 
> 100-200 m !?
> 
> & the funniest part ... TurAr thanked you immediately !


1- If it is imported from Ukraine, it means Sanctions are not working!
2- If the range is only 100 to 200m, then it should mean something that you Occupied Palestinians already possess hundreds of them
3- Even if it is totally imported it is still something especially you pirates must be worried about!
4- Why Iranian members even respond to this guy or girl or both?? Imagine a day, she comes saying something Positive about anything... He is from those girls who fool himself even if he sees an Iranian cruise missile coming to him as an Israeli private jet! you know this is called blind arrogance. Let us just ignore her for a while, only respond to logical guys for a while..let,s see what happens... I guess his/her/both salary will be cut soon!

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## lonelyman

Gold Eagle said:


> *Iran has unveiled a new long-range land-to-land cruise missile, named Soumar, which has been designed and manufactured by domestic experts.*
> 
> The new state-of-the-art high-precision missile was unveiled during a Sunday ceremony in Tehran with senior Iranian officials, including Defense Minister Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan, in attendance.
> 
> During the ceremony, Deqhan said Soumar “enjoys different characteristics in terms of range and pinpoint accuracy in comparison with the previous products.”
> 
> Such important achievements, which have been made through research and innovation based on the needs of Iranian Armed Forces, are “considered as crucial steps toward increasing the country’s defense and deterrence might,” Dehqan added.
> 
> The Iranian defense chief stressed that Tehran aims to promote the range, precision and the destructive power of such type of missiles in the upgraded versions, which are to be unveiled in the next Iranian calendar year (starting on March 21).
> 
> Dehqan also announced that the long-range ballistic missiles of Qadr and Qiam have been delivered in mass to the Aerospace Division of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC).
> 
> During the occasion, Commander of the IRGC Aerospace Division Brigadier General Amirali Hajizadeh (shown below) hailed Iran’s great defense capabilities, adding that Western sanctions have failed to disrupt the progress the Islamic Republic’s defense program.
> 
> Hajizadeh also warned that Terhan will never put to negotiation the country’s defense capabilities, including the development of its ballistic missiles.
> 
> On Saturday, a senior Iranian commander said the country is to unveil a long-range missile defense system, connected to the S-200 missile system.
> 
> According to Iran's Khatam al-Anbiya Air Defense Base Brigadier General Farzad Esmaili, the Talaash-3 (Endeavor-3) system is to be unveiled on April 18, when the country marks National Army Day.
> 
> In recent years, Iran has made great achievements in its defense sector and reached self-sufficiency in producing essential military equipment and systems.
> 
> Iran has repeatedly assured other countries that its military might poses no threat to other states, insisting that the country’s defense doctrine is entirely based on deterrence.
> 
> 
> *Pics and firing footage will be posted soon!*



Amazing Iranians accomplished under sanctions. Ignore those sour grapes nonsense

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## scythian500

ptldM3 said:


> For one, you have not taken apart and studied the electronics in any of the mentioned platforms so where do you get this from? I do not know anything about Iranian capabilities and i do not doubt Iran but i know you are underestimating Soviet technology and the decades of experience, trial and error and improvements that has gone into those 1980's technologies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has* a lot* to do with rocket engines. Those rocket engines are more complex then you can imagine. Fuel system management, ignition, turbo management, ect are needed and crucial. Then there are sensors that monitor fuel pressure, oil pressure, heat, oxogen/nitrogen pressure, vibration sensors ect. All of those computers/sensors are work together so the rocket engine works.


I agree with your points. Even 80s Soviet tech for some high tech weapons is very sophisticated, even with today standards...Although in most cases Iranian scientists improve and upgrade older electronics with new modern ones. Take Su-25 planes, I has no compatibility with laser guided or other precision guided ammunition. Iran installed a SA-6 or higher Day and night electro-optical camera and tracking system on it, changed all its cockpit into digital MFDs, or S-200 long range defense system. I had a friend with 15 years of experience in high tech telecom systems, he being as a high tech engineer, was surprised how sophisticated and complex a simple old rocket engine is.
I personally find Russian aerial defense systems as their most sophisticated technologies. Although, with daily improvements of electronics and telecom tech and ECUs, even a year 2000 tech is old.



MarkusS said:


> That doesn´t create much trust for iranian. Its also quite stupid. We are right in the 5+1 debates and hope for a solution. Israel tries heavily to sabotage our deal with Iran and what does Iran do? Fires its propaganda show like always. I think it would be smarter for you guys to cool it down right now.


Iranians don,t die for a deal...they made it clear... either a good deal that keeps Iranian nuclear tech intact and the lifting all sanctions or no deal at all...Btw, the commander in video says that it is a strategic weapon and we never negotiate our ballistic and cruise capabilities... this means Iran made this on purpose to gain more weight on Western threats about possible war if no deal and then confirming that she will never discuss its military power... what a stupid reasoning btw... can anyone ask another country to negotiate its conventional weapons, while its main adversary, Occupied Palestine has hundred of Nukes and its carriers to be fired to Iran and they openly threaten Iran to use them if necessary!!!



Abii said:


> Oh please. Growing up we had weekly blackouts.
> 
> "bargh raft" was a common phrase in every household when I was growing up. Every home also has gas lights for blackout situations.
> 
> The only person lying here is you not Markus.


When I was a young man, 20 years ago, black outs was normal because of WAR conditions...but it is now decades that I personally have n,t seen any blackout or even heard it from anyone I know... those days has long passed.... It is now years that Iran exporting its surplus of electricity to Iraq and Afghanistan and Armenia if I,m not wrong... Since Khatami era Iran had surplus electricity to export...



Mike_Brando said:


> Man that's a real beauty!I just wish that the Govt. of India goes ahead and purchase a few dozens of these deadly cruise missiles from Iran.Anyways congratulation to all the Iranian members of this forum for this brilliant achievement, specially to @haman10 and you


IT is good to help friendly nations but is n,t it India a producer of such long range cruises??



cabatli_53 said:


> Turkey doesn't beg anybody but wants to develop all kind of SAM missiles including Long altitude. US is also willing to sell their solutions but It is Chinese proposal selected by Turkish officials. Contrary to our officials, Industry wants to develop domestic equivalent of Chinese system within 7 years so making pressure political wing to cancel meetings to immediately commence development of project called HisaR-U like they have already been doing for Low (Hisar-A) and medium altitude (Hisar-O) SAM missile projects. (Want to learn more, type the names of projects on google)
> 
> The point I agree with you is Even If you put the best strategic sub-components on a 1960 designed missile, It will not provide much of the limits of first design requirements so Turkish HAWX XXI is also considered as obsolete among us. Did you realize that What We considered as obsolete is the target you want to reach with copying Hawks. That's the worst thing of reverse-engineering based industrial roadway until you matured enough to design a missile which is solely developed to meet own requirements in accordance with your armed forces target perceptions. The Turkish industry You are underestimating, is doing it at present to replace HAWK-XXI under the code name of Hisar-O.
> 
> Don't drive the subject into off-topic matters please.


Turkey can make no high tech products...nothing...all supervised and instructed by western scientists... IT can,t even upgrade its F-4s and send them to Occupied Palestine to be upgraded and then claims it can build some parts of F-35.... the only thing Turks are good at are Pistachio and Jeans... They can not even build serious missiles for themselves unless first allowed and asked permission of USA and big masters!! Ataturk and Erdugan fanboys!!



MarkusS said:


> I saw an Energia rocket there. One of most powerful and complex ever build. Iran cant even shot a monkey into space.
> 
> I dont like russia...but compared to Iran its like Japan compared to Somalia.


We could n,t end a monkey to space waiting for the right substitute.... come on...look at your profile photo!!!
Iran is Iran...not Russia not Japan... but wait for a call from ISA calling for a one way trip to moon!



MarkusS said:


> Wrong, im a god pretending to be a human, Beside that You did talk about rockets. You neither have the engines nor the computing power.  We know what you have. If we wouldn't know we could not *sabotage* it that easily...like StuxNet.  A *blown up nuclear facility* here, a *assasinated *scientist there...then mysterious events like* mass destruction *of centrifuges...Thats amusing to watch from outside.



So, you are admitting a well known fact that* you are Terrorists on a state scale*! sabotaging,.... Terror!! seems so familiar ... *Terrorists*...btw, Iran has computing technology that kids like you can not comprehend... All the algorithms and computer for state of the art systems like upgrading electronics and algorithms of s-200 , Long range radars, MPD of airplanes and fighters and other imported systems.... the Sepehr 3000 km radar computing system is something that even your Germany dream of... or what about super computers? Iran to present 9 domestically made supercomputers
Over-the-horizon radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



cabatli_53 said:


> Hawk missile was developed in 1960's and there are many different variants of missiles/radars which is being revealed into world market until now and I think Iranian variant that was copied from original, is quite old maybe MIM-23B or C. It seems that Some subystems are replaced with home made derivatives but This doesn't mean It is better than original because The countries which have already been using Hawk missiles, operates HAWK-XXI variants that is considered best HAWK missiles/radar system. In additions, There is a general logic in such discussions. If you had infastructure enough to design/develop a better missile than HAWK, You wouldn't have needed to one by one copy others' products. In parallel to this logic I expect that You wouldn't claim Iranian HAWK is better than XXI...


Like Turks trying to upgrade their F-4s and yet claim they can make F-35s? Have you finally ordered your F-4s to be upgraded by your friend Occupied Palestine? Some of you claiming things with certain about Iranian products like you are a part of their builders or upgrader!!! Stop this... If our Shalmche Missile are not better than HAWKS then why it has 0.6 more MACH speed and more resistance against electronic warfare and quicker response to radar updates?? sometimes some of you deserve to be called TURK



MarkusS said:


> I wonder why you are still online. I heared you guys have common electricity blackouts.
> 
> As for the rest of this nonsense here:
> 
> What does iran try to achieve with this? all those mock ups, models and so on. The world laughs about it and nobody is impressed. I mean is it targeted only at home? Because it definitely does not bite here.


by it seem definitely hurt your buttt... come one... get out of here kid... do play with your counterparts... whatever you do you never be considered in par with us... whatever you say, you,re still like your photo, otherwise, you would n,t put it there!

I wonder why with all these mock-ups and plastic lies and fake weapons, Occupied Palestine, USA and Arabs express their complain and worries about Iranian military industry in a way that they ask to negotiate Iranian weapon industry!!!

This shows you are only trying to comfort your but... we are comfort with plastic and fake weapons... I wonder if you could convince your leaders the same way you do convince us not to worrying as all Iranian weapons are fake!!!!

Relief your leaders and spare us from their daily concerns about Iranian military!!!



TurAr said:


> Yeah according to those same Israeli officials Iraq was having breakthroughs on a daily basis back in the day but that's not the point. As you just happen to admit, there is no information about this clone which could suggest that it is superior to its original. Yet, we see mullah fanboys claiming it to be so. When people ask "how come", they simply say "it must be" and then comes the personal attacks...


I am a Mullah fanboy ...so what? I,m proud of being a Mullah fanboy...so what? I,m not that much in accord with naming others by what they deserve but I can simply call you Turk or its equivalent... if you ever repeat this non sense then I have some in my sleeve too... be ware..being a Mullah fan boy is still considered a human... what about...?

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## Militant Atheist

Abii said:


> Oh please. Growing up we had weekly blackouts.
> 
> "bargh raft" was a common phrase in every household when I was growing up. Every home also has gas lights for blackout situations.
> 
> The only person lying here is you not Markus.



Living in Ahwaz between 2001 to 2004 wasn't easy. We had problem especially during hot seasons. But it got better. I remember we had at least 30 minute blackout sometimes. Whenever I called the utility company they would say we are doing maintenance.



scythian500 said:


> I agree with your points. Even 80s Soviet tech for some high tech weapons is very sophisticated, even with today standards...Although in most cases Iranian scientists improve and upgrade older electronics with new modern ones. Take Su-25 planes, I has no compatibility with laser guided or other precision guided ammunition. Iran installed a SA-6 or higher Day and night electro-optical camera and tracking system on it, changed all its cockpit into digital MFDs, or S-200 long range defense system. I had a friend with 15 years of experience in high tech telecom systems, he being as a high tech engineer, was surprised how sophisticated and complex a simple old rocket engine is.
> I personally find Russian aerial defense systems as their most sophisticated technologies. Although, with daily improvements of electronics and telecom tech and ECUs, even a year 2000 tech is old.
> 
> 
> Iranians don,t die for a deal...they made it clear... either a good deal that keeps Iranian nuclear tech intact and the lifting all sanctions or no deal at all...Btw, the commander in video says that it is a strategic weapon and we never negotiate our ballistic and cruise capabilities... this means Iran made this on purpose to gain more weight on Western threats about possible war if no deal and then confirming that she will never discuss its military power... what a stupid reasoning btw... can anyone ask another country to negotiate its conventional weapons, while its main adversary, Occupied Palestine has hundred of Nukes and its carriers to be fired to Iran and they openly threaten Iran to use them if necessary!!!
> 
> 
> When I was a young man, 20 years ago, black outs was normal because of WAR conditions...but it is now decades that I personally have n,t seen any blackout or even heard it from anyone I know... those days has long passed.... It is now years that Iran exporting its surplus of electricity to Iraq and Afghanistan and Armenia if I,m not wrong... Since Khatami era Iran had surplus electricity to export...
> 
> 
> IT is good to help friendly nations but is n,t it India a producer of such long range cruises??
> 
> 
> I admire Turkey personally...they are on the right track... but is n,t better to stop this destructive comment about each other? Turkey and Iran are both advanced in many weaponry systems... Iranians are better in some fields and Turk are better in some other... It is time for Turk to congrad Iranians and Iranians to congrat Turk on their achievements...
> 
> 
> We could n,t end a monkey to space waiting for the right substitute.... come on...look at your profile photo!!!
> Iran is Iran...not Russia not Japan... but wait for a call from ISA calling for a one way trip to moon!
> 
> 
> 
> So, you are admitting a well known fact that* you are Terrorists on a state scale*! sabotaging,.... Terror!! seems so familiar ... *Terrorists*...btw, Iran has computing technology that kids like you can not comprehend... All the algorithms and computer for state of the art systems like upgrading electronics and algorithms of s-200 , Long range radars, MPD of airplanes and fighters and other imported systems.... the Sepehr 3000 km radar computing system is something that even your Germany dream of... or what about super computers? Iran to present 9 domestically made supercomputers
> Over-the-horizon radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Like Turks trying to upgrade their F-4s and yet claim they can make F-35s? Have you finally ordered your F-4s to be upgraded by your friend Occupied Palestine? Some of you claiming things with certain about Iranian products like you are a part of their builders or upgrader!!! Stop this... If our Shalmche Missile are not better than HAWKS then why it has 0.6 more MACH speed and more resistance against electronic warfare and quicker response to radar updates?? sometimes some of you deserve to be called TURK
> 
> 
> by it seem definitely hurt your buttt... come one... get out of here kid... do play with your counterparts... whatever you do you never be considered in par with us... whatever you say, you,re still like your photo, otherwise, you would n,t put it there!
> 
> I wonder why with all these mock-ups and plastic lies and fake weapons, Occupied Palestine, USA and Arabs express their complain and worries about Iranian military industry in a way that they ask to negotiate Iranian weapon industry!!!
> 
> This shows you are only trying to comfort your but... we are comfort with plastic and fake weapons... I wonder if you could convince your leaders the same way you do convince us not to worrying as all Iranian weapons are fake!!!!
> 
> Relief your leaders and spare us from their daily concerns about Iranian military!!!
> 
> 
> I am a Mullah fanboy ...so what? I,m proud of being a Mullah fanboy...so what? I,m not that much in accord with naming others by what they deserve but I can simply call you Turk or its equivalent... if you ever repeat this non sense then I have some in my sleeve too... be ware..being a Mullah fan boy is still considered a human... what about...?



Dude! Are you just gonna answer everyone?!

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## Abii

Militant Atheist said:


> Living in Ahwaz between 2001 to 2004 wasn't easy. We had problem especially during hot seasons. But it got better. I remember we had at least 30 minute blackout sometimes. Whenever I called the utility company they would say we are doing maintenance.


We left Shiraz in 2000 and black outs were very common. Every house had a gas light for blackout situations. But back then water shortages weren't a problem. Now, during the summer months, water is cut 3-4 hours every day. Ahvaz is probably doing just as bad in the water department.

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## Militant Atheist

Abii jan the problem was that Iran's power grid was very old and inefficient. I don't know about it's current situation. But it was bad back then. I remember they had an emergency initiative to fix the blackout problem in 2007.



Abii said:


> We left Shiraz in 2000 and black outs were very common. Every house had a gas light for blackout situations. But back then water shortages weren't a problem. Now, during the summer months, water is cut 3-4 hours every day. Ahvaz is probably doing just as bad in the water department.



Actually Ahwaz has plenty of water thanks to Karun. The problem is they're sending the water to other cities without considering Ahwaz needs first.

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## scythian500

Daneshmand said:


> Ah, just leave it. They have inferiority complex. They do not have 2500+ km ballistic and cruise missiles, space launchers, and no nuclear enrichment, so they feel inferior and behave like this.


Turk are only allowed to build weapons that their master USA is happy with it. It is a sign of political and military slavery... They chose this way...this is the consequences... Turkey has no serious technology or industry at all... all under supervision montage and some law tech independently... Turkey is not even in par with Egypt in technology... South Korea has also the same fate... they can never produce what they need and need to ask for permission of USA first... they can,t even build a missile over 300 km range!!! what a slavery!!! I rather die of hunger than having some outsider telling me what to do or not to do... Urdugan fanboys are in serious mistake to support him if anyone support him at all... they have to get rid of him and install a more brave leader can make independent decisions...!!!

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## Mike_Brando

scythian500 said:


> IT is good to help friendly nations but is n,t it India a producer of such long range cruises??


Yes it's true that India has it's own cruise missile in production(Nirbhay aka The Fearless) but it's range is only around 1000-1200 Kms.On the other hand,Sumar has got more than twice the range than that of Nirbhay,so it'll better for us if we purchase a couple of hundreds of these beasts as we don't have any current long range cruise missile in our arsenal.

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## scythian500

Mike_Brando said:


> Yes it's true that India has it's own cruise missile in production(Nirbhay aka The Fearless) but it's range is only around 1000-1200 Kms.On the other hand,Sumar has got more than twice the range than that of Nirbhay,so it'll better for us if we purchase a couple of hundreds of these beasts as we don't have any current long range cruise missile in our arsenal.


You have navy ships capable of firing thoe shorter range cruises. am I right? so no worries... although I,m sure India does not let the world powers pass him by in cruise missile tech. I,m sure you have already programs to build some of you did n,t already have imported ones in your arsenal... btw, India is an Atomic Missile Arsenal holder... you don,t need such weapons as an strategic weapon... you have ballistics going anywhere needed with MT scale nukes... although I see it very impractical to use nuke in just any war... Nukes are for show or Apocalypse!!

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## Mike_Brando

Daneshmand said:


> Because international law prohibits transfer of technology or sale of missiles above 300 km of range. Brahmos uses Russian technology. Iran will eventually make something similar to it based on Russian Oniks from Syria. Probably with greater range.


Mate,MTCR is nothing but a hogwash and India is fully aware of all the loopholes in the MTCR agreement.Hence we have successfully modified the range of the Brahmos missile from around 300 Kms to around 500+ kms using indigenous technology.Neither Russia nor us give any importance to the MTCR anymore.We deliberately kept the range of the original Brahmos just under the limited range permitted in the MTCR agreement just to satisfy the P5 countires and nothing more.The real range of the Brahmos will only be revealed in case of any future full fledged war
BrahMos gains sub-strategic super weapon capability - The Hindu
New Modified Brahmos with 500 KM Range.



scythian500 said:


> You have navy ships capable of firing thoe shorter range cruises. am I right? so no worries... although I,m sure India does not let the world powers pass him by in cruise missile tech. I,m sure you have already programs to build some of you did n,t already have imported ones in your arsenal... btw, India is an Atomic Missile Arsenal holder... you don,t need such weapons as an strategic weapon... you have ballistics going anywhere needed with MT scale nukes... although I see it very impractical to use nuke in just any war... Nukes are for show or Apocalypse!!


Yah,unofficially we have got hundreds of Kh-55 which we acquired from Russia and Ukraine after the dissolution of the USSR but officially the only cruise missiles in our arsenal are Brahmos,Gabriel,Popeye,Klub,Kh-35 and Harpoon Blk-II(in small quantities).We are at present in a process to induct the first Indian sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay in our arsenal but it's range is much shorter than the Tomahawk Blk-II or Sumar.

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## scythian500

Abii said:


> We left Shiraz in 2000 and black outs were very common. Every house had a gas light for blackout situations. But back then water shortages weren't a problem. Now, during the summer months, water is cut 3-4 hours every day. Ahvaz is probably doing just as bad in the water department.


you exactly left Iran when Iran started to see some real improvements in each and every aspect... The utilities are way better...almost all villages has natural gas now... there are some problems in Ahvaz which is nothing but mismanagement by local authorities... that will be fixed soon inchallah... Black outs are something we tell stories about to kids... You just missed Iran when it started to take off



Mike_Brando said:


> Mate,MTCR is nothing but a hogwash and India is fully aware of all the loopholes in the MTCR agreement.Hence we have successfully modified the range of the Brahmos missile from around 300 Kms to around 500+ kms using indigenous technology.Neither Russia nor us give any importance to the MTCR anymore.We deliberately kept the range of the original Brahmos just under the limited range permitted in the MTCR agreement just to satisfy the P5 countires and nothing more.The real range of the Brahmos will only be revealed in case of any future full fledged war
> BrahMos gains sub-strategic super weapon capability - The Hindu
> New Modified Brahmos with 500 KM Range.
> 
> 
> Yah,unofficially we have got hundreds of Kh-55 which we acquired from Russia and Ukraine after the dissolution of the USSR but officially the only cruise missiles in our arsenal are Brahmos,Gabriel,Popeye,Klub,Kh-35 and Harpoon Blk-II(in small quantities).We are at present in a process to induct the first Indian sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay in our arsenal but it's range is much shorter than the Tomahawk Blk-II or Sumar.


A military super power like India has always wise commanders to know what to acquire and what to build locally... I admire Indian progress in last couple of decades very much..



Militant Atheist said:


> Living in Ahwaz between 2001 to 2004 wasn't easy. We had problem especially during hot seasons. But it got better. I remember we had at least 30 minute blackout sometimes. Whenever I called the utility company they would say we are doing maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude! Are you just gonna answer everyone?!


Help me with it then... I ,m just having fun with this jealous, butt hurt bodies!!! Non of our comments gonna change the reality of Iranian sophistication in weaponry nor worsen it... I,m just having fun with our neighbors!!

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## MarkusS

Daneshmand said:


> Where did you get this? Lying as always. Iran does not have blackouts. With 75,000 MW of installed capacity, Iran is well awash with electricity. But then from some one who can create this sick thread and writing sick things about suffering human beings, nothing else can be expected: How italy can profit from the break down in libya | Page 4
> 
> 
> 
> All HAWK versions are now obsolete. Even the ones upgraded by US, such as the Turkish HAWK system. That is why you are begging China to sell you a system as US is not supplying you with newer systems and because you can not develop it yourselves. Iran is atleast trying. And this is the difference.



Oh i heared from news. Also that you have mega imflation and people struggle to pay their daily bills. The recent oil prices dont help either. . Beside that i know a girl from Tehran who told me about constant power blackouts, mostly in summer because the rotten infrastructure cant take the load. She doesnt live there anymore. She moved to Canada.


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## Mike_Brando

scythian500 said:


> you exactly left Iran when Iran started to see some real improvements in each and every aspect... The utilities are way better...almost all villages has natural gas now... there are some problems in Ahvaz which is nothing but mismanagement by local authorities... that will be fixed soon inchallah... Black outs are something we tell stories about to kids... You just missed Iran when it started to take off
> 
> 
> A military super power like India has always wise commanders to know what to acquire and what to build locally... I admire Indian progress in last couple of decades very much..


Well thanks for the complement but the reality is that our Military is getting screwed on a daily basis by the worthless politicians of this country who think that spending on our defense sector is nothing but a wastage of resources.Our defence budget is meagre compared to all other "big" powers like Russia or China and the main reason behind this is that our Govt. allocates less than 2% of our GDP to the Defense sector(our present defense budget is only around 1.75% of our GDP) when we really need to allocate at least 3% of our GDP to boost up our defense forces.Iran is extremely lucky in this regard as your politicians are much more competent and efficient than ours.They understand the need of the defense forces and hence your armed forces are develoing newer weapons by the each passing day unlike ours.

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## Malik Alashter

jack 86000 said:


> entire population of Sumar was killed by an Iraqi chemical attack
> 
> Sumar, Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Allah curse Saddam and his supporters.

y appology to the victims famelies if any still alive.

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## SouI

MarkusS said:


> There are no concerns. If no peaceful solition is found and no deal reached that is good for us, then we will have no deal and go on like we do now. This means sabotage. And when the republicans gain the president seat this will hopefully end once and for all and iran will be liberated.


Who is the candidate of republicans for the next presidential elections?


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## Shams313

Bornubus said:


> What i have just heard....it is a CLONE of kh 55


Hybrid biological improvement.
Aerodynamic design remains same to kh55.but may be there r lot of internal change in navigation,sensing,control moduels.

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## scythian500

Mike_Brando said:


> Well thanks for the complement but the reality is that our Military is getting screwed on a daily basis by the worthless politicians of this country who think that spending on our defense sector is nothing but a wastage of resources.Our defence budget is meagre compared to all other "big" powers like Russia or China and the main reason behind this is that our Govt. allocates less than 2% of our GDP to the Defense sector(our present defense budget is only around 1.75% of our GDP) when we really need to allocate at least 3% of our GDP to boost up our defense forces.Iran is extremely lucky in this regard as your politicians are much more competent and efficient than ours.They understand the need of the defense forces and hence your armed forces are develoing newer weapons by the each passing day unlike ours.


Don,t worry many are envying your government leaders... Maybe because they see it enough deterrent their current equipment so they rather allocate the budget to other civil purposes... to my eyes and from outside, Indian military is huge and state of the art...

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## masud

congrats to our iranian brother...........

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## Shams313

Daneshmand said:


> All HAWK versions are now obsolete. Even the ones upgraded by US, such as the Turkish HAWK system. That is why you are begging China to sell you a system as US is not supplying you with newer systems and because you can not develop it yourselves. Iran is atleast trying. And this is the difference.


Don't stop.go on.

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## AUz

An obsolete, dysfunctional clone that will be jammed and destroyed by superior Western Forces.

We all want best for the Iranian peoples, but lets not forget how Saddam used to brag about his military "capability" and what happened to that "capability" once United States decided to pull the plug..

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## scythian500

AUz said:


> An obsolete, dysfunctional clone that will be jammed and destroyed by superior Western Forces.
> 
> We all want best for the Iranian peoples, but lets not forget how Saddam used to brag about his military "capability" and what happened to that "capability" once United States decided to pull the plug..


Sleep Father Deal!! yeah.. all Iranian commanders who call this weapon, STRATEGIC are dumb and fool and you know what is strategic and what is just a dysfunctional clone that will be jammed and destroyed by superior WEST!!!! Sometime I surprise how delusional one can be to even mention such CERTAIN and ABSOLUTE claims such as yours.... Your reasons look like fact to me! One who compare current Iran with Saddam and one who ignores how deadly these long range cruise missile are, otherwise, other superpowers would not make them now, is very much out of discussion... I hope there will be no wars so the world see how stubborn and cheap blood Iranian are when it comes to defending their country...

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## SipahSalar

My take is that these are the same Kh-55 that Ukraine sold them, except with a new paint job.

Things to note:
- These missiles do in fact have a range of 2500km
- It is very possible that Iran has reverse engineered them in the 14 years it has possessed them. Anything is possible in 14 years.
- Kh-55 is originally an air-launched missile, but the test was of ground launch. That raises a few questions.

The most important thing is that these missiles were actually made for nuclear weapons delivery, if that's not the job they are performing, they are not very useful except in mass numbers because they have poor accuracy. If Iran does produce them in mass numbers then it will be deploying them as tactical missiles, which raises another question. Remember that Russia does have tactical versions of Kh-55. But that missile is a significant upgrade over Kh-55. I doubt Iran has achieved that level of technological prowess. 
This missile is too big and unmaneuverable to be a good tactical missile. The most useful utility of these will be as over glorified Scuds.
But, if Iran does develop nuclear weapons, then these missiles will alter the geopolitical situation. Without nuclear warheads these are just toothless tigers.


Surenas said:


> People did not say 'it must be'. They made logical arguments about development in technology, which Iran is familiar with, such as avionics, electronics, material used on these systems, etc. For me, if this Soumar has the same capabilities as the original Kh-55, which is likely, then it would be a huge breakthrough for Iran's missile capabilities, and would give Iran significant capabilities in a field which most countries in the world lack.
> 
> Only a matter of time before Israeli missile experts give us an update about this new missile. I give more value to their assessments than to yours.


I doubt it has better capabilities compared to original Kh-55. Remember Iran is like clouds that thunder but do not rain. That said reverse engineering a kh-55 is also a big feat.

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## SOHEIL

SipahSalar said:


> My take is that these are the same Kh-55 that Ukraine sold them, except with a new paint job.



Fool ... date of production is visible !



SipahSalar said:


> Remember Iran is like clouds that thunder but do not rain.



we are raining in middle east ... you can't see !?

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## kollang

@SipahSalar 

we can turn a balisitic missile into an anti-ship missile with CEP of less than 5 metres.who the hell are you to question our technological capabilities?

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## SipahSalar

kollang said:


> we can turn a balisitic missile into an anti-ship missile with CEP of less than 5 metres.who the hell are you to question our technological capabilities?


Sure, Iran (or the glorious Persian empire as you people like to be called) has achieved what even China hasn't.


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## SOHEIL

MarkusS said:


> I saw an Energia rocket there. One of most powerful and complex ever build. Iran cant even shot a monkey into space.
> 
> I dont like russia...but compared to Iran its like Japan compared to Somalia.



It seems you are out of your troll mind !

our monkeys crossed 100 km altitude ... it seems you don't the purpose of such a missions !? do you !?

russians are badass in military ... we are in first steps to become a badass nation ... so don't bother yourself !



SipahSalar said:


> Sure, Iran (or the glorious Persian empire as you people like to be called) has achieved what even China hasn't.



Problem !?








MarkusS said:


> im a god pretending to be a human



It seems you don't know american soldiers raped thousands german and italian women after your failure in WW2 !?

Nice ... even gods can get a bang !!!



MarkusS said:


> I heared you guys have common electricity blackouts.



North koreans have electricity blackouts not Iranian's !

Is this what they told you in the media !? 

My laptop torrenting 24h non-stopping ... go & get some life !



Abii said:


> Oh please. Growing up we had weekly blackouts.
> 
> "bargh raft" was a common phrase in every household when I was growing up. Every home also has gas lights for blackout situations.
> 
> The only person lying here is you not Markus.



In canada !?

Are you talknig about your Memoirs in Iran during 90s !?

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## veg

Mike_Brando said:


> Well thanks for the complement but the reality is that our Military is getting screwed on a daily basis by the worthless politicians of this country who think that spending on our defense sector is nothing but a wastage of resources.Our defence budget is meagre compared to all other "big" powers like Russia or China and the main reason behind this is that our Govt. allocates less than 2% of our GDP to the Defense sector(our present defense budget is only around 1.75% of our GDP) when we really need to allocate at least 3% of our GDP to boost up our defense forces.Iran is extremely lucky in this regard as your politicians are much more competent and efficient than ours.They understand the need of the defense forces and hence your armed forces are develoing newer weapons by the each passing day unlike ours.



I find India is wasting a lot of money on buying foreign military products. They should invest all this money in domestic projects. 
This thing is making bigger difference as compared to Politicians of India. 
Indeed Iran is saving billions of USD in Air Force by not purchasing foreign fighter jets.


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## SOHEIL

MarkusS said:


> iran will be liberated.

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## Shahryar Hedayati

MarkusS said:


> . And when the republicans gain the president seat this will hopefully end once and for all and iran will be liberated.

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## haman10

lonelyman said:


> A jealous butthurt Turk, don't waste time putting sense into them.


indeed mate . we cannot have enough of these creatures 


Mike_Brando said:


> Man that's a real beauty!I just wish that the Govt. of India goes ahead and purchase a few dozens of these deadly cruise missiles from Iran.Anyways congratulation to all the Iranian members of this forum for this brilliant achievement, specially to @haman10 and you


Tnx bro , you're so kind 

BTW , about the cooperation that you talked about : Iran and India already cooperate in various military fields .

as an example we worked on installing APU (auxillary power units) for TF-30 engines (F-14A) .




Malik Alashter said:


> Allah curse Saddam and his supporters.
> 
> y appology to the victims famelies if any still alive.


Why do you apologize for sth that you did NOT do ?

Saddam was a maniac , now everything is changed and there is a democratically elected govt. in baghdad .

we have brotherly relations now and thats what matters .

Godspeed bro .

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## Malik Alashter

haman10 said:


> indeed mate . we cannot have enough of these creatures
> 
> Tnx bro , you're so kind
> 
> BTW , about the cooperation that you talked about : Iran and India already cooperate in various military fields .
> 
> as an example we worked on installing APU (auxillary power units) for TF-30 engines (F-14A) .
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you apologize for sth that you did NOT do ?
> 
> Saddam was a maniac , now everything is changed and there is a democratically elected govt. in baghdad .
> 
> we have brotherly relations now and thats what matters .
> 
> Godspeed bro .


Still Iraqi who did all those crimes against civilians> Plus I feel for the families.

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## Mike_Brando

haman10 said:


> Tnx bro , you're so kind
> 
> BTW , about the cooperation that you talked about : Iran and India already cooperate in various military fields .
> 
> as an example we worked on installing APU (auxillary power units) for TF-30 engines (F-14A) .


Ohh,its great to hear that finally India and Iran have started active co-operation in defense secto.Man,we can learn so much from each other if we co-operate in this field.Actually,i believe that there's a huge scope for a future co-operation in the fields of missile tech and active seeker tech between our two countries.



veg said:


> I find India is wasting a lot of money on buying foreign military products. They should invest all this money in domestic projects.
> This thing is making bigger difference as compared to Politicians of India.
> Indeed Iran is saving billions of USD in Air Force by not purchasing foreign fighter jets.


Yes,i totally agree with you in this matter.We should probably invest our money in the indigenous defense industry rather than purchasing those expensive products from foreign countries.That way we'll be able to achieve both self-sufficiency in terms of defense requirement plus it will create thousands of jobs in India and we'll also able to save a huge amount of forex which can then be utilized in other sectors.

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## -------

Mike_Brando said:


> Ohh,its great to hear that finally India and Iran have started active co-operation in defense secto.Man,we can learn so much from each other if we co-operate in this field.Actually,i believe that there's a huge scope for a future co-operation in the fields of missile tech and active seeker tech between our two countries.
> 
> 
> Yes,i totally agree with you in this matter.We should probably invest our money in the indigenous defense industry rather than purchasing those expensive products from foreign countries.That way we'll be able to achieve both self-sufficiency in terms of defense requirement plus it will create thousands of jobs in India and we'll also able to save a huge amount of forex which can then be utilized in other sectors.



I don't think your great buddy and technological aid giver, Israel, would be too pleased about it


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## haman10

Mike_Brando said:


> Ohh,its great to hear that finally India and Iran have started active co-operation in defense secto.Man,we can learn so much from each other if we co-operate in this field.Actually,i believe that there's a huge scope for a future co-operation in the fields of missile tech and active seeker tech between our two countries


indeed bro , indeed dear

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## SOHEIL

AUz said:


> An obsolete, dysfunctional clone that will be jammed and destroyed by superior Western Forces.
> 
> We all want best for the Iranian peoples, but lets not forget how Saddam used to brag about his military "capability" and what happened to that "capability" once United States decided to pull the plug..



*jammed and destroyed by superior Western Forces









*

pull the plug ...

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## Mike_Brando

Combat-Master said:


> I don't think your great buddy and technological aid giver, Israel, would be too pleased about it


Lol we are not beggars,we always pay the right prices for literally everything that we purchase from the foreign countries.Plus both Israel and Iran are close friends of our country and i don't think that Israel will raise any objection in this matter (nor that we care for it)considering the fact that Iran never raised any similar objection in case of any Indo-Israeli co-operation in defense sector.
You know there's a saying that *money speaks for itself* and the reality is that we have got tons of money(please don't take it as bragging) which we can spend to acquire state-of-the-art tech from any foreign country.

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## -------

Mike_Brando said:


> Lol we are not beggars,we always pay the right prices for literally everything that we purchase from the foreign countries.Plus both Israel and Iran are close friends of our country and i don't think that Israel will raise any objection in this matter (nor that we care for it)considering the fact that Iran never raised any similar objection in case of any Indo-Israeli co-operation in defense sector.
> You know there's a saying that *money speaks for itself* and the reality is that we have got tons of money(please don't take it as bragging) which we can spend to acquire state-of-the-art tech from any foreign country.



I'm sure Iranian tech would supplement a lack of Israeli tech perfectly.

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## SOHEIL

Combat-Master said:


> I'm sure Iranian tech would supplement a lack of Israeli tech perfectly.



It won't happen ...






*Upcoming >>>

IR - 655 missile ...



*

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## yavar

Minute by Minute said:


> I am thinking, that it is the first time, I talk to you Yavar, so big hello,
> I have been admiring you for some time now for your Work defending our nation at forums like this. I have even been happy about your English improving too. It is important for us to be able to better our language skills to be more effective defending our country.
> People are sometimes overwhelmed, when trying to learn a new language, but the truth of the matter is, that with only 500 Words a person can manage life in a foreign language. Looking at it this way makes it easier to cope with its vastness. I once learned a language by concentrating on reading a few pages in a book. I learned the meaning of every Word, spelling and then the grammer used on those few pages. After than I could read and write in the language. It is that easy!
> But that is not why I write this to you. The truth is, that someone like me needs people like you or haman in forums like this. Let me be the bad guy, the loud and the aggressive one. I am like a teflon, and when it comes to our enemies propaganda, my mind is the chinese wall, but if people meet someone like me all over this forum, they may not like it and their impression of all of us will be perhaps negative. That must be balanced with you or haman or the others being kind, funny or informative and open otherwise none of us gain much.
> Believe me that is how our enemies cyberarmies do it!
> I am working on a comment about how they Work in forums like this and will post it later.
> With regards and thanks for all your hard Work.


thank you brother for your nice word .
and wise encounter



haman10 said:


> bro , virtually you are aggressive towards every foreigner here .
> 
> please don't screw up the already bad relations that we have here
> 
> thanks bro


i apologise to you once again forgive me

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## haman10

yavar said:


> i apologise to you once again forgive me


lol 

az dast man narahat shodi mashti ?

bekhoda be nazaram kare badi hast ba hame dargir shim , hala harjoor meylete azizam

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## Mike_Brando

SOHEIL said:


> *It won't happen* ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Upcoming >>>
> 
> IR - 655 missile ...
> 
> 
> 
> *


What won't happen brother??Haman has already told me that we are co-operating in the field of engine tech,so why shouldn't we take our co-operation on other defense related fields like missile tech,seeker tech etc!!

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## yavar

Iran Long-Range "Soumar" Land attack cruise missile fired from land based launcher

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## kurup

Combat-Master said:


> I don't think your great buddy and technological aid giver, Israel, would be too pleased about it



There is no aid ..... we pay the money to get the products we want .....

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## yavar

haman10 said:


> lol
> 
> az dast man narahat shodi mashti ?


نه برادر من .من کی باشم که از دست شما بخوام نارتحت بشم . شما برادرنه من را نسهت مکنید . من شما را مثل برادر خودم دوست دارم .



haman10 said:


> lol
> bekhoda be nazaram kare badi hast ba hame dargir shim , hala harjoor meylete azizam


you always allowed to criticize me my brother.

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## haman10

yavar said:


> من شما را مثل برادر خودم دوست دارم


me too bro

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## cabatli_53

scythian500 said:


> Turkey can make no high tech products...nothing...all supervised and instructed by western scientists... IT can,t even upgrade its F-4s and send them to Occupied Palestine to be upgraded and then claims it can build some parts of F-35.... the only thing Turks are good at are Pistachio and Jeans... They can not even build serious missiles for themselves unless first allowed and asked permission of USA and big masters!! Ataturk and Erdugan fanboys!!
> 
> 
> Like Turks trying to upgrade their F-4s and yet claim they can make F-35s? Have you finally ordered your F-4s to be upgraded by your friend Occupied Palestine? Some of you claiming things with certain about Iranian products like you are a part of their builders or upgrader!!! Stop this... If our Shalmche Missile are not better than HAWKS then why it has 0.6 more MACH speed and more resistance against electronic warfare and quicker response to radar updates?? sometimes some of you deserve to be called TURK




 
A typical ignorant fanboy who don't have any idea What He is talking about...

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## kurup

Congratulations to Iran in this wonderfull achievement .

Any specifications of the missile available yet ??

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## SOHEIL

cabatli_53 said:


> A typical ignorant fanboy who don't have any idea What He is talking about...



Exist in both sides ...



kurup said:


> Congratulations to Iran in this wonderfull achievement .
> 
> Any specifications of the missile available yet ??



Releasing specification of strategic weapons for what reason !?

I can't understand ...

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


> Releasing specification of strategic weapons for what reason !?
> 
> I can't understand ...



To ensure your adversaries that you have the product and you are not faking it .

Why does every country with nukes release the data about their weapon systems and delivery vehicles !!

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## haman10

kurup said:


> Congratulations to Iran in this wonderfull achievement .
> 
> Any specifications of the missile available yet ??


The specifications are undisclosed .

its close to this :

Kh-55 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meshkat (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

some say there is a project named "meshkat" .

this project leaded to some results , one of them being this very "soumar" missile .



kurup said:


> To ensure your adversaries that you have the product and you are not faking it .
> 
> Why does every country with nukes release the data about their weapon systems and delivery vehicles !!


But disclosure of some pointless numbers does not prove anything .

the origin country can always exaggerate their capabilities .

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## kurup

haman10 said:


> But disclosure of some pointless numbers does not prove anything .
> 
> the origin country can always exaggerate their capabilities .



They can but in most cases countries usually understate their capabilities not to reveal their true potential .

And in today's world , a live test can be easily monitored and all the required data can be collected by adversaries if needed .

My point was that releasing data of such systems is a normal thing .

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## haman10

kurup said:


> My point was that releasing data of such systems is a normal thing .


I agree mate .

its a normal thing for countries in normal situation . but Iran is under constant military and financial threat , secrecy is almost a most .

Besides , the most important things we need to know about this missile is its range :

2500km 

its cruising height : 100 meters 

its speed : 0.5 to 0.7 mach

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## -------

kurup said:


> There is no aid ..... we pay the money to get the products we want .....



Pick up a dictionary sometime mate. *_waves back_


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## Gold Eagle

kurup said:


> To ensure your adversaries that you have the product and you are not faking it .



Nothing can satisfy trolls! Assume that they give some specification about this. what will be changed then? They always have got some thing to complain about !! Trolls never change! they always keep humiliating Iran's achievements!

Seriously If this is just a plastic mock-up, why this concerns trolls this much?!

@500 is a good example as a "Sange paye qazvin" ! Every thing is clear about Shahed-129 UCAV but he still continues to mock it! however he only mocks himself instead!

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## kurup

Gold Eagle said:


> Nothing can satisfy trolls! Assume that they give some specification about this. what will be changed then? They always have got some thing to complain about !! Trolls never change! they always keep humiliating Iran's achievements!
> 
> Seriously If this is just a plastic mock-up, why this concerns trolls this much?!
> 
> @500 is a good example as a "Sange paye qazvin" ! Every thing is clear about Shahed-129 UCAV but he still continues to mock it! however he only mocks himself instead!



I was not talking about this forum ..... more like international geo-politics .

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## Gold Eagle

kurup said:


> I was not talking about this forum ..... more like international geo-politics .



I think those who should get the message, gets it as the way it is!

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## Oldman1

The Last of us said:


> It seems you are the one confused here. Ukraine only sold Iran the missile, it did not help Iran in reverse engineering the missile. You keep mixing up selling the missile with selling+tot/reverse engineering.



Okay, you are the one that is really confused.
Reverse engineer - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

*Full Definition of REVERSE ENGINEER*
transitive verb
*:* to disassemble and examine or analyze in detail (as a product or device) to discover the concepts involved in manufacture usually in order to produce something similar 

So you are saying the missile that Ukraine sold to you never helped you in designing your own missile? None whatsoever? Nada? Zip? I don't care if Ukraine didn't help with tot. Iran has already shown that they can make clones like ScanEagle and RQ 170 without U.S. helping Iran with tot, correct?












JEskandari said:


> Don't forget the missiles we bought from Ukraine according to reports due to the lack of maintenance were not operational.
> so we could not just copy them.



When you say lack of maintenance? Are we talking missing parts? Or degraded you just need to replace them?



The SC said:


> Just to be fair, when the ex-USSR split up, everyone, i mean everyone on this planet with some money was buying some thing from the ex republics, including the US who has gotten her hands on the S-300 system to "study it"!



Would that be equivalent to ScanEagle and RQ-170 as studying it? Do you see the American version of the S-300? No, to study it would be how to counter it with its strengths and weaknesses. We got our hands on the MIG 25 by the defector of the Soviet pilot. Does any of the aircraft look like that after we got our hands on it?

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## The Last of us

ptldM3 said:


> For one, you have not taken apart and studied the electronics in any of the mentioned platforms so where do you get this from? I do not know anything about Iranian capabilities and i do not doubt Iran but i know you are underestimating Soviet technology and the decades of experience, trial and error and improvements that has gone into those 1980's technologies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has* a lot* to do with rocket engines. Those rocket engines are more complex then you can imagine. Fuel system management, ignition, turbo management, ect are needed and crucial. Then there are sensors that monitor fuel pressure, oil pressure, heat, oxogen/nitrogen pressure, vibration sensors ect. All of those computers/sensors are working together so the rocket engine works properly.



So you are under the impression that the electronic and computing system used in those systems back in the 80's are not much less advanced that what Iran has available today? Are you having a laugh or do you not know anything about the rate of advancement in computing and electronics?

You are getting overly emotional. No on can deny the soviets were very advancement back then, but to compare their electronics and computing systems to what Iran has today is just to insult Iran. Even my smart phone has more computing power than most of what was available to the soviets back then.

Furthermore, you did not seem to understand my comment about the rocket engine. I was stating there is difference between how much rocket engine technology has come since then and how much we've advanced in computing for example.
My comments are purely aimed at computing and electronics and software and nothing else.

Todays Russia is more advance than Iran, no question about it. But I am talking about the Russia of 30 years ago.





Oldman1 said:


> Okay, you are the one that is really confused.
> Reverse engineer - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> *Full Definition of REVERSE ENGINEER*
> transitive verb
> *:* to disassemble and examine or analyze in detail (as a product or device) to discover the concepts involved in manufacture usually in order to produce something similar
> 
> So you are saying the missile that Ukraine sold to you never helped you in designing your own missile? None whatsoever? Nada? Zip? I don't care if Ukraine didn't help with tot. Iran has already shown that they can make clones like ScanEagle and RQ 170 without U.S. helping Iran with tot, correct?



I never made that statement at all. I said all Ukraine did was sell Iran the missile, they did nothing more than that. The reverse engineering and upgrading has been done all by Iran. I am not denying Ukraine helped Iran by selling her the system, but that is where it ends.

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## The Last of us

cabatli_53 said:


> Hawk missile was developed in 1960's and there are many different variants of missiles/radars which is being revealed into world market until now and I think Iranian variant that was copied from original, is quite old maybe MIM-23B or C. It seems that Some subystems are replaced with home made derivatives but This doesn't mean It is better than original because The countries which have already been using Hawk missiles, operates HAWK-XXI variants that is considered best HAWK missiles/radar system. In additions, There is a general logic in such discussions. If you had infastructure enough to design/develop a better missile than HAWK, You wouldn't have needed to one by one copy others' products. In parallel to this logic I expect that You wouldn't claim Iranian HAWK is better than XXI...



Now you're playing with dates. You seem to have amnesia or something. You made the statement the "copies" Iran has will be downgraded, and I showed you why your comment was moronic. It does not matter what you're upgrading, if you are upgrading it then by definition it can't be more downgraded, can it?

You don't know jack about Iranian HAWK system to claim whether it is more advance or not. You seem to have the habit of making baseless comments without putting even a 12 year old's level of logic into it. 
If you want to be taken seriously either come with some facts or at least be logical.

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## Serpentine

Oldman1 said:


> Okay, you are the one that is really confused.
> Reverse engineer - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> *Full Definition of REVERSE ENGINEER*
> transitive verb
> *:* to disassemble and examine or analyze in detail (as a product or device) to discover the concepts involved in manufacture usually in order to produce something similar
> 
> So you are saying the missile that Ukraine sold to you never helped you in designing your own missile? None whatsoever? Nada? Zip? I don't care if Ukraine didn't help with tot. Iran has already shown that they can make clones like ScanEagle and RQ 170 without U.S. helping Iran with tot, correct?
> 
> 
> When you say lack of maintenance? Are we talking missing parts? Or degraded you just need to replace them?
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be equivalent to ScanEagle and RQ-170 as studying it? Do you see the American version of the S-300? No, to study it would be how to counter it with its strengths and weaknesses. We got our hands on the MIG 25 by the defector of the Soviet pilot. Does any of the aircraft look like that after we got our hands on it?



If you really are an old man, then much more is expected from you.

US didn't make those Soviet systems because It already had either better systems or ones equal to Soviet types. So it wasn't necassary to spend billions to reverse engineer Soviet weapons, while it could develop deterance against them much easier and cheaper.

And please don't compare U.S with Iran. Your military budget is almost *14 times bigger* than Iran's. We don't have military relations with any country, so developing entirely new systems requires huge amounts of money and resources. We have already developed domestic systems, especially in UAV and missile systems, but it's also wise to take already succesful weapons systems' designs and upgrade them to make better systems. This missile may look like Kh-55 in appearance, but you can not say with certainty that its internals are also the same which is highly unlikely to be so.

Ukraine gave these missiles to Iran, but not knowhow on making its subsystems and engine which is the main part. There are already speculations that we have used Turbofan engines for this missile which is not verified now, but if it's true, that's a HUGE step forward in terms of engine development and making domestic missiles and aircraft. There are already projects on making Turbofan engines for jet fighters, we don't know if they have been finished or not, but we will find out soon I suppose.

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## Surenas

Serpentine said:


> Your military budget is almost *14 times bigger* than Iran's.



88 times bigger actually.

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## Serpentine

Surenas said:


> 88 times bigger actually.



I considered all of Iran's military budget, hidden or not, as $20 billions, which may be lower actually. Maybe I'm wrong and it's much lower.

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## haman10

Surenas said:


> 88 times bigger actually.


Iran : 9 billion dollars

US : 640-680 billion dollars minus the "black budget" projects






List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## New

Almost 25 pages of mere nonsense,
That's not something so difficult to comprehend, everyone knows that's just a low copy of Russian old junk, which considering Iran's technological level and it's lack of GPS capability wouldn't mean much of a strategical break through if used in a conventional warhead.
In the eve of the nuclear negotiation deadline, that's just a clear message for the guys in the other side of the table, to know that in the case of a deadlock in the process, and Iran's break into the higher levels of enrichment, Iranians have already got their hands on the delivery system for their possible unconventional (If you know what I mean) warheads.
That's just a position booster for the negotiation table, simple as that.

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## Serpentine

Guys take off topic discussions to chill thread.

Don't bother with @MarkusS, he is thread banned.

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## haman10

@Serpentine :

while you're at it :

IRAN unveils "Sumar" surface to surface Cruise missile. | Page 18



Serpentine said:


> Guys take off topic discussions to chill thread.
> 
> Don't bother with @MarkusS, he is thread banned.


safheye 18 ta 20 ham ye negah bendaz

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## Shahryar Hedayati

Serpentine said:


> Don't bother with @MarkusS, he is thread banned.




دمت گرم
Well done

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## SOHEIL



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## The SC

Oldman1 said:


> Would that be equivalent to ScanEagle and RQ-170 as studying it? Do you see the American version of the S-300? No, to study it would be how to counter it with its strengths and weaknesses. We got our hands on the MIG 25 by the defector of the Soviet pilot. Does any of the aircraft look like that after we got our hands on it?


Maybe not, but you can be sure that thy have used some tech, adjusted theirs and copied some. It might not be visible externally but There are known facts that the Mig-25 Foxbat was extremely intriguing to the US and NATO. it is too long to explain here but one can Google it and see what they have found in it. So one can also be sure that they have reverse engineered some. The fact that the US was still buying space rockets from the Russians recently tells a lot about what the US would like to RE if it can get its hands on the secret codes.

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## SOHEIL

New said:


> Almost 25 pages of mere nonsense,
> That's not something so difficult to comprehend, everyone knows that's just a low copy of Russian old junk, which considering Iran's technological level and it's lack of GPS capability wouldn't mean much of a strategical break through if used in a conventional warhead.
> In the eve of the nuclear negotiation deadline, that's just a clear message for the guys in the other side of the table, to know that in the case of a deadlock in the process, and Iran's break into the higher levels of enrichment, Iranians have already got their hands on the delivery system for their possible unconventional (If you know what I mean) warheads.
> That's just a position booster for the negotiation table, simple as that.



So we have another hopeless here !?



New said:


> Russian old junk



Do you know the level of soviets rocket technology !?

You don't know what you are talking about ...

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## cabatli_53

The Last of us said:


> Now you're playing with dates. You seem to have amnesia or something. You made the statement the "copies" Iran has will be downgraded, and I showed you why your comment was moronic. It does not matter what you're upgrading, if you are upgrading it then by definition it can't be more downgraded, can it?
> 
> You don't know jack about Iranian HAWK system to claim whether it is more advance or not. You seem to have the habit of making baseless comments without putting even a 12 year old's level of logic into it.
> If you want to be taken seriously either come with some facts or at least be logical.



Dude, Before introducing a simple image in order to say "Look at that, It is copy but Ours is more advanced than original", Firstly learn telling deeper and informative matters on sub-components which makes your systems differ from its original copy. At least, When a question asked about it, You should provide your evidence to tell adverse of What others claims but You don't have anything to tell different than colour and size of that KH copy missile with a few pictures.
In additions, Without any evidence/proof, You are claiming that Your HAWK is better than Raytheon's latest variant Hawk XXI which is being used by many countries in NATO. When It is asked What makes your technology ahead of Raytheon which is used on their own designed missiles, You are suddenly posting a seeker head image. When It is asked about generation of seeker, semi conductors, modules used on antenne regarding that thing to compare the capabilities/heat level/precision/processing/datalink/resistance, You just look at the question gapingly and start judging the logics of questions, bashing the members who wants to ask/learn something more about it.

"If you want to be taken seriously either come with some facts or at least be logical." Defence forums are not kid's playground.

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## SOHEIL



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## kollang

New said:


> Almost 25 pages of mere nonsense,
> That's not something so difficult to comprehend, everyone knows that's just a low copy of Russian old junk, which considering Iran's technological level and it's lack of GPS capability wouldn't mean much of a strategical break through if used in a conventional warhead.
> In the eve of the nuclear negotiation deadline, that's just a clear message for the guys in the other side of the table, to know that in the case of a deadlock in the process, and Iran's break into the higher levels of enrichment, Iranians have already got their hands on the delivery system for their possible unconventional (If you know what I mean) warheads.
> That's just a position booster for the negotiation table, simple as that.


A cruise missile with an active radar doesn't necessary need to have access to GPS.the missile could be easily programmed to follow a certain route with saved map and data base.you dont need to hold a PHD in order to get this point.

My dear friend, if you had a little clue about military you would never question the importance of such a weapon.take USA wars in Iraq and Lybia as instance.tomahawk missiles were in the first waves to land on enemy territories all the time.

And please whenever you have nothing to add in a miliary-related thread stay silenced and avoid polluting the thread with political trash like always.

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## New

SOHEIL said:


> So we have another hopeless here !?


Indeed a hopeless. 


kollang said:


> A cruise missile with an active radar doesn't necessary need to have access to GPS.the missile could be easily programmed to follow a certain route with saved map and data base.you dont need to hold a PHD in order to get this point.


Believe me, you need it.
Indeed, you need a doctor of philosophy degree to understand that even if you hold a PhD on that subject you can't talk about it with that level of confidence.


kollang said:


> .take USA wars in Iraq and Lybia as instance.tomahawk missiles were in the first waves to land on enemy territories all the time.


This is your level of reasoning.
َAlthough not very bad for a 19 year old kiddo, but not worth enough to be commented on.


kollang said:


> And please *whenever you have nothing to add in a miliary-related thread stay silenced and avoid polluting the thread* with political trash like always.


Hope you can hear yourself, little bro.

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## scythian500

SipahSalar said:


> Sure, Iran (or the glorious Persian empire as you people like to be called) has achieved what even China hasn't.


Firsy who said China does not have the capability for a CEP 5 or less?? They sure are more advanced than Iran at the moment... If they even don,t have these prices Missiles , I won,t be surprised as they possess NUKEs and a CEP of 100 or higher would be more than fine for them...but for Iran, we have no choice but to make it very accurate...



Malik Alashter said:


> Still Iraqi who did all those crimes against civilians> Plus I feel for the families.


Don't worry...it is true that our civilian people suffered a lot from Saddam sense of cruelty but the only things that matter is that:
1- even during war days, we never chanted Down with Iraq, we only had Down with Saddam the Blood Drinker,.. 
2- Most of Shia Iraqis were either our allies in Iran or as forces in Iraq or were forced to fight in battle.. I have seen many of them here in Iran, regret if they could they never chose to fight our shia brothers in Iran... they said, horrible things about how Ba,ath regime forced them out of home to fight or they will be executed and their families as well.,,
The only thing that matters is that we never commit this mistake again and stay in one side for the glory of Islam (sunni or Shia).
Iraq must learn from Iran that being a submissive to west, never brings them good... they have to rely on their own power...they have human capital, money and energy... they have to rise again... and Iran will always be there for you...
Actually, those of my friends who left Iran to participate in Arbaeen parade in Iraq, described Iraqis as OUR BELOVED FAMILIES and they have not felt they are outside of Iran.



Mike_Brando said:


> Ohh,its great to hear that finally India and Iran have started active co-operation in defense secto.Man,we can learn so much from each other if we co-operate in this field.Actually,i believe that there's a huge scope for a future co-operation in the fields of missile tech and active seeker tech between our two countries.
> 
> 
> Yes,i totally agree with you in this matter.We should probably invest our money in the indigenous defense industry rather than purchasing those expensive products from foreign countries.That way we'll be able to achieve both self-sufficiency in terms of defense requirement plus it will create thousands of jobs in India and we'll also able to save a huge amount of forex which can then be utilized in other sectors.



India with its cheap labor can make three times more weapons with a same quality if they choose to make everything locally. You have the know how and millions of Indian diaspora to help you when you don,t have a tech... It is always a wiser decision to build 6 fighters with the price of two Imported ones...

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## Arminkh

New said:


> Believe me, you need it.
> Indeed, you need a doctor of philosophy degree to understand that even if you hold a PhD on that subject you can't talk about it with that level of confidence.


For the record, a modern cruise missile like Tomahawk doesn't merely rely on GPS or satellite link for navigation as they are not designed to hit only helpless countries like Libya or Iraq. They were designed to hit targets within former Soviet Union or today's Russia where they know all of the signals like that of GPS and Satellite links will be jammed. This capacity has been proven first in Iraq and later in Iran when they hacked jammed RQ-170 navigation system.

To counter this problem the missile has redundancies in it's guidance system like Terrain Contour Matching (TCM) and Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation (DSMAC) system in addition to GPS. Each of these system can replace the other in order to make sure the missile will reach its target. Iranians may not have access to GPS, but they can use the other two. Although I would argue they have access to GPS as well even though it may not provide the precision that USA enjoys (commercial GPS will provide -+15 m accuracy). For the terminal phase, a TV guide system like that of Khalije Fars could be used.

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## scythian500

haman10 said:


> Iran : 9 billion dollars
> 
> US : 640-680 billion dollars minus the "black budget" projects
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Iranian current official budget is $10 billion dollars and with taking another $1 billion asked last month it is 11 billions in total. Tasnim News Agency - Iran’s 2015 Draft Defense Budget Up by 32.5%
Although, it is when we convert Iranian rial into EXCHANGE RATE which is one third of its PPP purchasing power value. So, a better comparison would be to triple $11 billion to $33 billion if compared to American real budget power.

But still and despite cheaper Iranian prices, American budget is still 20 times more than Iran.

One should also consider Black Budget of IRCG projects that are fed directly by IRCG independent income from its projects.
One thing that is clear is that Iran can build many folds more weapons with its current budget. Specially, when a guided Missile like Fateh-110 has a production fee of 200 million Tomans based on what I have heard... it is $60000 at most... If what I have heard is right which with current PPP of Iran, it is very likely, then Iran can build a huge arsenal of weapons with even its current budget.



cabatli_53 said:


> A typical ignorant fanboy who don't have any idea What He is talking about...


My claims that Turkey can make nothing serious is as BACKED UP and credible as your claims about Iran building fake weapons (that scared the shit out of West, Occupied Palestine and Arabs on daily basis as they complain and worry!!)..take it now...
Although my point about Turkey being a political and military slave of west is a known fact not need to prove...
Turkey can make nothing but pistachio and Jeans... All its work is either low tech junk or supervised, designed, engineered by western scientists and installed under supervision of masters! Don,t try to show me your supervised stuff... even if you ever can send a spaceship to Mars, you are still Turk and can make nothing serious except for if your masters allow you to install a few parts under supervision



SOHEIL said:


> It won't happen ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Upcoming >>>
> 
> IR - 655 missile ...
> 
> 
> 
> *


IR-655 chie dige sardar? what about that B-2 style stealth bomber? can you clarify or it is classified yet?



kurup said:


> They can but in most cases countries usually understate their capabilities not to reveal their true potential .
> 
> And in today's world , a live test can be easily monitored and all the required data can be collected by adversaries if needed .
> 
> My point was that releasing data of such systems is a normal thing .





kurup said:


> They can but in most cases countries usually understate their capabilities not to reveal their true potential .
> 
> And in today's world , a live test can be easily monitored and all the required data can be collected by adversaries if needed .
> 
> My point was that releasing data of such systems is a normal thing .


Iran is under special conditions, it is very serious and helpful to leave exact specification to the day of battle for Iran... I think all Iran is doing is to to only show a hint of what he has in possess and don,t reveal its main aspects for surprise... Iran is in a condition that has to both alert adversaries for the consequences and at the same time leave some for surprise if War happens... I guess the it is the main reason behind publishing short, low quality videos of new weapons... At the same time with a short review of Iranian leaders' behavior, it shows that they are very sane and smart, they never make suicide and if they threat enemies with serious consequences or to destroy HAifa and Telaviv in case of they attack first, it shows that have serious strategic weapons ready to fire...otherwise, they never do such statements... I guess...most Iranian commanders are eager to reveal what they have but they need to keep it quite...what a suffering!!

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## cabatli_53

scythian500 said:


> My claims that Turkey can make nothing serious is as BACKED UP and credible as your claims about Iran building fake weapons (that scared the shit out of West, Occupied Palestine and Arabs on daily basis as they complain and worry!!)..take it now...
> Although my point about Turkey being a political and military slave of west is a known fact not need to prove...
> Turkey can make nothing but pistachio and Jeans... All its work is either low tech junk or supervised, designed, engineered by western scientists and installed under supervision of masters! *Don,t try to show me your supervised stuff.*.. even if you ever can send a spaceship to Mars, you are still Turk and can make nothing serious except for if your masters allow you to install a few parts under supervision



Don't worry, I will not show you anything serious because It is the people who is taken serious, deserve some serious response. I don't have a wish to decrease the level of this thread and mine, While trying to tell the things You don't have any idea...


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## Arminkh

Interesting article. Especially look at the clip at the end showing how this missile can be fit inside containers and be fired from trucks, and even cargo ships!

Iran’s cruise missile could strike targets beyond 2000 km | Defense Update:





*Iran’s cruise missile could strike targets beyond 2000 km*

Missiles
Mar 8, 2015
1521
According to expert assessments, if the Iranians had access to the Russian current TRDD-30 engine or the original R95, produced in the Ukraine, the missile could be able to carry a warhead of 410 kg to hit targets beyond 2,000 km. The strategic version of the missile (Kh55) used by the Russian Air Force carries 200-250 Kt nuclear warhead.

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Iran unveiled yesterday a new, long range surface-launched land attack cruise missile. The new missile called ‘Soumar’ was presented yesterday to the Iranian Defense Minister, Brigadier general Hossein Dehqan. Unveiling the missile developed by Iranian scientists Dehqan said the new weapon ‘will increase Iran’s deterrence might’.





Radug Kh555 cruise missile loaded onto a Tu-95 bomber.
No details about the weapon’s specifications, performance or payload were provided but according to the Iranian media, Tehran plans to introduce an enhanced model of the missile this year, that will increase the range, accuracy and warhead capability of the current version.


The missile seems to be one of the variants of the ‘Meshkat’ cruise missile, announced by the director of the Iranian Defense Ministry’s Aerospace Organization, Brigadier General Mehdi Farahi three years ago. “Meshkatcruise missile, which God willing will be unveiled soon, has a range of more than 2,000 kilometers.” Farahi told the Iranian media in 2012, “it will be the upper hand of the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran.”





A line of completed Soumar cruise missiles displayed to Defense Minister Brig. General Hossein Dehqan yesterday by Iran’s Aerospace Industries Organization (AIO). Photo: Mehr News Agency
As mentioned above, most of the Iranian coastal and naval attack missiles are based on Chinese C-series (C-701, 704, and 802). Unlike these, Soumar do not resemble any Chinese weapon, but bears close similarity to theRussian Kh55SM cruise missile. Iran acquired 12 such missiles from the Ukraine in 2001. These missiles were also sold to China in 2000 and more were delivered to an undisclosed customer, assumably North Korea.





The Saturn TRDD-50 miniature turbofan engine was designed specifically for cruise missiles.
One of the factors determining the missile’s range is likely to be the miniature turbofan. The original weapon delivered to Iran was powered by the Russian designed, Ukraine made R95-300 mini-turbofan, but in the mid 2000s, as Russiatransferred the production of critical systems to its industry, equipping its new production missiles Kh55 with TRDD-50 turbofans made by the Russian Saturn company. According to expert assessments, if the Iranians had access to the Russian engine or the original R95-300 produced in theUkraine, the missile could reach an operational range of 2,000 km, carrying a warhead of 410kg weight. The strategic version used by Russian Air Force carries 200-250 Kt nuclear warhead.

This small, fuel efficient turbofan delivers the thrust and size class required to power cruise missiles, standoff missiles and UAVs. The cited thrust rating is 400 to 500 kp (880 to 1,000 lbf), with a dry mass of 95 kg (210 lb), a Specific Fuel Consumption of 0.65, a length of 0.85 m (33.5 in) and diameter of 0.33 m (13 in).


Russia is not likely to allow the export of such engines to equip foreign weapons programs, since it will be considered a violation of the MTCR regime. But Moscow agreed to supply such engines to power the Indian target drone ‘Lakshya’. However, the mini turbofans are believed to have also powered the Indian cruise missile Nirbhay on its maiden flight in October 2014.





Iranian Defense Minister, Brigadier general Hossein Dehqan (right) with IRGC’s aerospace commander, Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh at the new missile. “It will be the upper hand of the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran”




Launched from land-based or naval surface based platforms, Soumar uses a booster for the initial acceleration. The folded lattice tail controls are used to stabilize it as it accelerates from zero to cruising speed, when the missile gain enough speed to enable efficient use of conventional control surfaces.
As a variant of the Kh55, the Iranians could also pursue the course the Russian designers paved, turning their cruise missile into a versatile strike weapon launched from submarines, surface ships and ground based launchers. Unlike the fixed engine configuration of the Kh55, the 3R-54 ‘Club’ uses a ‘drop down’ engine, thus packing the cylindrical missile more efficiently in storage canisters, ensuring unobstructed launch procedure, particularly from the confined space of submarine launchers.

An interesting capability introduced by the missile manufacturer ‘AGAT’ is the containerized version – Club K, enabling the launching of cruise missiles from ‘innocent looking’ cargo ships, rail cars or trucks, a practice the Iranians, Syrians and their Hezbollah proxy have practiced many times in the past.

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## IHK_PK

IN ANY WAY.... Iran's Soumar cruise missile is *BETTER COPY *of the Russian Kh-55 missile that Iran acquired from Ukraine in 2001. ...*and it can kill a target*. Period.

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


>



That retractable engine , is that present in Kh-55 or or just your concept ??


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## SOHEIL

kurup said:


> That retractable engine , is that present in Kh-55 or or just your concept ??



Just found it in another forum !

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## Hack-Hook

MarkusS said:


> Its hostile to show weapons while Israel cries that iran is warmongering and we try to show the oppossite. How does this build up trust?


Its called transparency not aggressiveness .
You guys for several years complained that we are not transparent , now that we want to be transparent you moan that we are aggressive ?

and there isn't a day that Israel is not crying about Iran danger. can you look at the stars please and choose a lucky day so we unveil our next weapon in that day ,you know a day that this systems are not considered provocative.


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## Hack-Hook

Oldman1 said:


> When you say lack of maintenance? Are we talking missing parts? Or degraded you just need to replace them?


we are talking about Ukraine so I assume they certainly were degraded , but they certainly missed the warhead .
and don't forget Russian and Ukrainian at the time when the deal come to light said the missiles are inoperable and useless so they may have missed a critical part.

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## PurpleButcher

Congrats my Iranian brothers... may you guys rise and shine .... Best of luck for future endeavours

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## mohsen

for those who are still skeptical about Mr lies broadcasting agent (aka Babak Taghavi) :
Iran unveils new long-range cruise missile called Soumar - Page 10

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## kollang

mohsen said:


> for those who are still skeptical about Mr lies broadcasting agent (aka Babak Taghavi) :
> Iran unveils new long-range cruise missile called Soumar - Page 10


OK

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## yalesaraat

SipahSalar said:


> My take is that these are the same Kh-55 that Ukraine sold them, except with a new paint job.
> 
> Things to note:
> - These missiles do in fact have a range of 2500km
> - It is very possible that Iran has reverse engineered them in the 14 years it has possessed them. Anything is possible in 14 years.
> - Kh-55 is originally an air-launched missile, but the test was of ground launch. That raises a few questions.
> 
> The most important thing is that these missiles were actually made for nuclear weapons delivery, if that's not the job they are performing, they are not very useful except in mass numbers because they have poor accuracy. If Iran does produce them in mass numbers then it will be deploying them as tactical missiles, which raises another question. Remember that Russia does have tactical versions of Kh-55. But that missile is a significant upgrade over Kh-55. I doubt Iran has achieved that level of technological prowess.
> This missile is too big and unmaneuverable to be a good tactical missile. The most useful utility of these will be as over glorified Scuds.
> But, if Iran does develop nuclear weapons, then these missiles will alter the geopolitical situation. Without nuclear warheads these are just toothless tigers.
> 
> I doubt it has better capabilities compared to original Kh-55. Remember Iran is like clouds that thunder but do not rain. That said reverse engineering a kh-55 is also a big feat.



yeah yeahhhh... we are not raining... we are not raining in iraq,lebanon,syria,yeman,afghanistan,we rain in at least 4 or 5 countries but what does your country do ?we are the only country counter US and israel and still we are not raining... we are one of the military powers in midd east and one of the greatest nations in the middle of goddamn war.. always telling this with all due respect to great **** peoples, your goverment cant even control your own borders... that means that u cant even rain in your country... so dont talk like a superpower for us...

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## SOHEIL

mohsen said:


> for those who are still skeptical about Mr lies broadcasting agent (aka Babak Taghavi) :
> Iran unveils new long-range cruise missile called Soumar - Page 10



His father did a big mistake when he decided to not use the condom that night !

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## Hassan Al-Somal

Deterrence is established. I don't care what the trolls and naysayers say, Iran has beaten the odds. And Zion worshipers and their puppets can clap their butts for all we care. It won't change that fact. Does anyone have problems with that?

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## MTN1917

mohsen said:


> for those who are still skeptical about Mr lies broadcasting agent (aka Babak Taghavi) :
> Iran unveils new long-range cruise missile called Soumar - Page 10


In ACIG forum I exchanged some posts with him, it is truth that he knows some things about IRIAF, but his theories about Iran's defense industries other sections are pure BS.

He makes mind blowing claims!!! for example some years ago he claimed that Safir SLV was blown up by an IRGC HQ-2 battery!!! and the satellite launch was only a hoax, although he was proven to be wrong, and this is not the ''Omid'' we are talking about, he made this claim about ''Navid'' Iran's second satellite.

I won't go on about his other claims because some of them are mentioned on that militaryphotos post.

Not only he has no new information(only from early 90s) on Iran's defense industries other sectors(only fantasy stories to fool people), his hostility towards IRI has impaired his judgment, he can't even see what foreigners and enemies of Iran clearly see.

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## Oldman1

The Last of us said:


> I never made that statement at all. I said all Ukraine did was sell Iran the missile, they did nothing more than that. The reverse engineering and upgrading has been done all by Iran. I am not denying Ukraine helped Iran by selling her the system, but that is where it ends.



Well you can downplay Ukraine's help in your cruise missile development thinking selling it was insignificant, but that helped your cruise missile development significantly. Just as I have said many times and pointed out in response to the person's question to sell or help, does it really matter on Ukraine's contribution even its 10% on that development?


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## mohsen

Oldman1 said:


> Well you can downplay Ukraine's help in your cruise missile development thinking selling it was insignificant, but that helped your cruise missile development significantly. Just as I have said many times and pointed out in response to the person's question to sell or help, does it really matter on Ukraine's contribution even its 10% on that development?


the word "help" has a complex meaning. Iranian captured American's help!

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## Minute by Minute

Your repeating the same thing reminds me of a fly sitting on a horesdump and not letting go regardless of the World around it!
They gave us the blueprints. Now run and tell the others!
Actually here we have another important starategy in propaganda. The enemy finds a single point, regardless of how big or how small (actually the smaller the better!) and keeps pushing that point, pushing the point Again and Again.
This strategy was originally done as a psychological test. They put several people in a room, then showed them something, lets say a´perfectly round ball, and asked them if it was round or ecliptiacl in shape! Everybody said round! What the others did not know was, that one of the persons in the room was "planted" and his job was to keep insisting that the ball was not round but ecliptical in shape. He kept asking and asking and repeating and repeating, that the ball was ecliptical. The end result was, that in the end everybody else agreed with him, that the perfectly round ball was ecliptical!
You will also find this strategy used in debates like the presstv's the debate. You can guess, WHO is using this metode, and I am sure, you guessed correctly!

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## Oldman1

mohsen said:


> the word "help" has a complex meaning. Iranian captured American's help!



Indeed, hasn't the Iranians have in the past thank the U.S. for that help? Jump its UAV development by decades as they said.


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## mohsen

Oldman1 said:


> Indeed, hasn't the Iranians have in the past thank the U.S. for that help? Jump its UAV development by decades as they said.


was its mission to help us? that 'Thank' had a sarcastic meaning.
actually the jump was for engine's development, for the UAV they said our UAVs can do the same job and way more cheaper.

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## Oldman1

mohsen said:


> was its mission to help us? that 'Thank' had a sarcastic meaning.
> actually the jump was for engine's development, for the UAV they said our UAVs can do the same job and way more cheaper.



Oh I know its sarcasm by the Iranians. But it indeed helped them theres no denying that.


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## SOHEIL




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## Penguin

SipahSalar said:


> My take is that these are the same Kh-55 that Ukraine sold them, except with a new paint job.
> 
> Things to note:
> - These missiles do in fact have a range of 2500km
> - It is very possible that Iran has reverse engineered them in the 14 years it has possessed them. Anything is possible in 14 years.
> - Kh-55 is originally an air-launched missile, but the test was of ground launch. That raises a few questions.



The airlaunched Kh-55 (export version Kh-65) is a close relative of the RK-55 / Novator 3K10 / SSC-X-4 SLINGSHOT, which is a ground-launched system (i.e. from subs and from trucks).
Iran Great prophet 9 wargame, target: mock aircraft carrier | Page 21
















РК-55 / 3К12 Рельеф - SSC-X-4 SLINGSHOT | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)





Отечественная военная техника (после 1945 г.) • Просмотр темы - РК-55 / 3К12 Рельеф - SSC-X-4 SLINGSHOT

Novator 3M14E / SS-N-27 Sizzler land attack cruise missile (Club family member) is a modern-day equivalent, if much shorter ranged.













Imho Iran has at least managed to its Kh-55/65s with a booster, for ground-launch, if not in combination with creating a domestic copy of the missile.

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## kurup

SOHEIL said:


> Just found it in another forum !



Just read this ,

_The original Kh-55 had a drop-down engine; the Kh-65SE had a fixed external turbojet engine, whilst the Kh-SD had its engine inside the body of the missile._

Kh-55 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## SOHEIL

Penguin said:


> Imho Iran has at least managed to its Kh-55/65s with a booster, for ground-launch, if not in combination with creating a domestic copy of the missile.

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## yavar

*Iran IRINN report brigadier General Shahid Haj Hasan Tehrani Moghadam*









================================================================

Iran carbon fiber T-300 production factories with a capacity of 150 tons

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> FOR FOOLS



What do you mean yavar with "For fools"
We did see this images already some days ago

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## yavar

Iran carbon fiber T-300 production factories with a capacity of 150 tons








Draco.IMF said:


> What do you mean yavar with "For fools"
> We did see this images already some days ago


the design for head shows what it has been designed for . conventional warhead or ......................
for conventional warhead you don't need ...............................................
but in picture you can see ................... which used for setting off .... warhead so you get detention

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## Draco.IMF

> the design for head shows what it has been designed for . conventional warhead or ......................
> for conventional warhead you don't need ...............................................
> but in picture you can see ................... which used for setting off .... warhead so you get detention



Well, a quote by Sun Zu in "The Art of War"

“*All warfare is based on deception*. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”

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## Penguin

SOHEIL said:


>


What? Are you suggesting it is a fully domestic system, including design?
Clearly, the booster is new. It seems plausible if not likely that the rest of the missile is a reversed engineered copy.

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## SOHEIL

Penguin said:


> Are you suggesting it is a fully domestic system, including design?



Hardware ( discluding avionics ) are russian design but Iranian made ...



Penguin said:


> Clearly, the booster is new. It seems plausible if not likely that the rest of the missile is a reversed engineered copy.



Twin brothers ... different personalities !

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## albator

kollang said:


> A cruise missile with an active radar doesn't necessary need to have access to GPS.the missile could be easily programmed to follow a certain route with saved map and data base.you dont need to hold a PHD in order to get this point.
> 
> My dear friend, if you had a little clue about military you would never question the importance of such a weapon.take USA wars in Iraq and Lybia as instance.tomahawk missiles were in the first waves to land on enemy territories all the time.
> 
> And please whenever you have nothing to add in a miliary-related thread stay silenced and avoid polluting the thread with political trash like always.





Hey brother i m maroc, sunni living in france... AND I SAY CONGRATULATION

those who say this, or that ... bla bla are just jalous... wahabit (bit = penis in french) have spend almost 2 trillions dollars purchassing US made weapons.. and they can't even use it as it must be.

CONGRATULATION



SOHEIL said:


> Hardware ( discluding avionics ) are russian design but Iranian made ...
> 
> 
> 
> Twin brothers ... different personalities !




Well daid man, well said !!!! No one care that a device is a copy or not as long as it MAKE BOOOOOM on zionists if needed NO ONE CARE.



cabatli_53 said:


> Don't worry, I will not show you anything serious because It is the people who is taken serious, deserve some serious response. I don't have a wish to decrease the level of this thread and mine, While trying to tell the things You don't have any idea...




What happend my turkish brother in islam are you jalous of iranians brothers succees ? OR YOUR ISRAELI MASTER told you to play the angry man?



scythian500 said:


> Turk are only allowed to build weapons that their master USA is happy with it. It is a sign of political and military slavery... They chose this way...this is the consequences... Turkey has no serious technology or industry at all... all under supervision montage and some law tech independently... Turkey is not even in par with Egypt in technology... South Korea has also the same fate... they can never produce what they need and need to ask for permission of USA first... they can,t even build a missile over 300 km range!!! what a slavery!!! I rather die of hunger than having some outsider telling me what to do or not to do... Urdugan fanboys are in serious mistake to support him if anyone support him at all... they have to get rid of him and install a more brave leader can make independent decisions...!!!





only allowed to CLAIM they build weapons, they buy from isra-hell.... difference !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jalous ? rather insult your iranians brothers take them as exemple............



Penguin said:


> What? Are you suggesting it is a fully domestic system, including design?
> Clearly, the booster is new. It seems plausible if not likely that the rest of the missile is a reversed engineered copy.
> 
> 
> AND THEN WHAT ? chinese has almost only copy... as weapons, the fact that a weapon is a copy make is less deadly ?
> 
> The hezbollah missil used to send isra-hellis sailor feding fish in mediterranea is a copy of french exocet....the missils used by hezbolloh to **** the mervaka " the unstopable" were all copy to US mad missil THEN WHAT?
> 
> AS LONG AS A WEAPON CAN MAKEEE BOOOOOMM NO ONE CARE IT IS A COPY OR NOT
> 
> Congratulation iranians brothers !!!!!!!!!!! the true muslims in this world

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## uratM

It is not our (turkiye) problem it is wehabis' (republik of hells' citizens' dogs) problem. Crusaders and their dogs wehabiis. Turkey and Iran are friends till the war ends with wehabis. But i think wehabis willl win despite the whole faccts. Afterwards it will be the time for israel. Turkey should stay neutral. Good luck with your new toy.


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## albator

uratM said:


> It is not our (turkiye) problem it is wehabis' (republik of hells' citizens' dogs) problem. Crusaders and their dogs wehabiis. Turkey and Iran are friends till the war ends with wehabis. But i think wehabis willl win despite the whole faccts. Afterwards it will be the time for israel. Turkey should stay neutral. Good luck with your new toy.




You should congratulate your iranians brother rather than jalous them.... israel has killed 10 of yours in 2010 in international water.. like pirates....

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## uratM

Dude they also prisoned (ampulla party and feterosexuals) pure muslim armed forces command. I dont hate them they diid what they should do. Ampulla party says bad words to his wife israil and does everything she says.
By the way what you thiink afterwar with wehabis. I cong iranians.

By the way these thingiess are not pure iislamic mind iran is throat of china.


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## SOHEIL

uratM said:


> Dude they also prisoned (ampulla party and feterosexuals) pure muslim armed forces command. I dont hate them they diid what they should do. Ampulla party says bad words to his wife israil and does everything she says.
> By the way what you thiink afterwar with wehabis. I cong iranians.
> 
> By the way these thingiess are not pure iislamic mind iran is throat of china.










albator said:


> You should congratulate your iranians brother rather than jalous them.... israel has killed 10 of yours in 2010 in international water.. like pirates....



Let it go brother ... leave them alone !

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## albator

SOHEIL said:


> Let it go brother ... leave them alone !




NOW anyway... iran need to get the bomb nuclear deal or not... that close the CHAPTER once for all... even if you wait another decade.



The Last of us said:


> So according to you nukes are more useful on the battle field than missiles with non-nuke warheads?
> What on earth are you talking about? What do you think will happen to a nation if they used a nuke? You obviously don't know anything about the potency of modern missiles.
> we are not talking about dumb, unguided rockets but highly accurate missile which can paralyse nations by destroying strategic sites. And Iran has thousands of such weapons. According to you, those are useless.




In somes way he is right..... nothing worth a GOOD NUCLEAR DETTERRENCE.... as long as iran has not detonate a nuclear test.....ennemies will not give up.

according to all leadring experts in US iran can't be prevent ffrom having nukes by militaries means... SO WHY U DO NOT BUILD NUKES ? and close the chapter ONCE FOR ALL

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## Penguin

albator said:


> AND THEN WHAT ? chinese has almost only copy... as weapons, the fact that a weapon is a copy make is less deadly ?
> The hezbollah missil used to send isra-hellis sailor feding fish in mediterranea is a copy of french exocet....the missils used by hezbolloh to **** the mervaka " the unstopable" were all copy to US mad missil THEN WHAT?
> AS LONG AS A WEAPON CAN MAKEEE BOOOOOMM NO ONE CARE IT IS A COPY OR NOT
> Congratulation iranians brothers !!!!!!!!!!! the true muslims in this world



Welcome, Albator. I have no trouble acknowledging the deadliness of a copied weapon. However, if the discussion is what a certain country has developed indigenously, then it is relevant. Also, being able to produce a copy can also be an enormous achievement...


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## albator

Penguin said:


> Welcome, Albator. I have no trouble acknowledging the deadliness of a copied weapon. However, if the discussion is what a certain country has developed indigenously, then it is relevant. Also, being able to produce a copy can also be an enormous achievement...



"developed indigenously,"....................

Made indigenously mean build inside the country, thanks the country men power.... according to ur logic IRAN DOESN'T BUILD "indigenously" cars because cars were invented in US ?

Bulshit...even the israehellis made a lot of copies they called israehellis.(including french plans)

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## yavar

فرمانده نيروي هوا فضاي سپاه: رونمائي از نسل‌هاي جديد موشكي



هران / خبرگزاری صدا و سیما / اجتماعی 1393/12/22
فرمانده نیروی هوا فضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی از رونمایی نسل های جدید موشکی در سال آینده خبر داد. 
به گزارش خبرنگار خبرگزاری صدا و سیما (واحد مرکزی خبر)؛ سردار سرتیپ حاجی زاده در حاشیه پانزدهمین کنگره سرداران و 4 هزار شهید منطقه 17 تهران در مصاحبه اختصاصی با خبرنگار ما گفت: سال آینده موشک های فاتح 110، میانبرد قیام و قدر منسوخ و از رده خارج می شود و از نسل‌های جدید موشکی رونمایی می شود. 
وی افزود: این موشک ها همان برد موشک های سابق را دارند اما از نظر تکنولوژی و فنآوری پیشرفته تر هستند. 
صدا و تصویر دارد.​
واحد مرکزی خبر | IRIB News

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## Penguin

albator said:


> "developed indigenously,"....................
> 
> Made indigenously mean build inside the country, thanks the country men power.... according to ur logic IRAN DOESN'T BUILD "indigenously" cars because cars were invented in US ?
> 
> Bulshit...even the israehellis made a lot of copies they called israehellis.(including french plans)


Dear noob: Yes, very clever remark. You've made your point. Can we move on now and get down to business?


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> فرمانده نيروي هوا فضاي سپاه: رونمائي از نسل‌هاي جديد موشكي
> 
> 
> 
> هران / خبرگزاری صدا و سیما / اجتماعی 1393/12/22
> فرمانده نیروی هوا فضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی از رونمایی نسل های جدید موشکی در سال آینده خبر داد.
> به گزارش خبرنگار خبرگزاری صدا و سیما (واحد مرکزی خبر)؛ سردار سرتیپ حاجی زاده در حاشیه پانزدهمین کنگره سرداران و 4 هزار شهید منطقه 17 تهران در مصاحبه اختصاصی با خبرنگار ما گفت: سال آینده موشک های فاتح 110، میانبرد قیام و قدر منسوخ و از رده خارج می شود و از نسل‌های جدید موشکی رونمایی می شود.
> وی افزود: این موشک ها همان برد موشک های سابق را دارند اما از نظر تکنولوژی و فنآوری پیشرفته تر هستند.
> صدا و تصویر دارد.​
> واحد مرکزی خبر | IRIB News



**** yeah ... silo silo silo silo

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## SOHEIL

*Iran retires Ghadr (shahab-3) , Ghiam & F-110 BMs*​
فرمانده نيروي هوا فضاي سپاه: رونمائي از نسل‌هاي جديد موشكي

فرمانده نیروی هوا فضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی از رونمایی نسل های جدید موشکی در سال آینده خبر داد.
به گزارش خبرنگار خبرگزاری صدا و سیما (واحد مرکزی خبر)؛ سردار سرتیپ حاجی زاده در حاشیه پانزدهمین کنگره سرداران و 4 هزار شهید منطقه 17 تهران در مصاحبه اختصاصی با خبرنگار ما گفت: سال آینده موشک های فاتح 110، میانبرد قیام و قدر منسوخ و از رده خارج می شود و از نسل‌های جدید موشکی رونمایی می شود.
وی افزود: این موشک ها همان برد موشک های سابق را دارند اما از نظر تکنولوژی و فنآوری پیشرفته تر هستند.

*But*

Unveiling it's new generation advanced BMs for the first time !

*Next iranian year !











*
واحد مرکزی خبر | IRIB News​

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## yavar

BS continues


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> BS continues



They are not ICBMs ... but advanced enough to destroy troll asses !

Indeed ... Iran's 10 years old technology !

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> T but advanced enough to destroy troll asses !
> 
> Indeed ... Iran's 10 years old technology !



FOR FOOLS

so these are Iran top secret missile and the missile which are still in service ??
you see NO country in world put it top weapon or the weapon which relies on in public view so every body in whole world can come take pictures from it and in one picture even the kids they play with TEL and missile .


so these are the missile which Iran relies on for short range and medium range


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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> T but advanced enough to destroy troll asses !
> 
> Indeed ... Iran's 10 years old technology !


FOR FOOLS

so these are Iran top secret missile and the missile which are still in service ??
you see NO countriy in world put it top weapon in public view so every body in whole world can come take pictures from it and in one picture even the kids they play with TEL and missile .


so these are the missile which Iran relies on for short range and medium range

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## SOHEIL

Silo ... Silo ... Silo ...

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## SOHEIL

Let's have a heart attack

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Let's have a heart attack


MY conspiracy theories :


only when something is good enough for museum it will be show case for public

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> MY conspiracy theories :
> 
> 
> only when something is good enough for museum it will show case for public



Still enough for heart attack !

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## Draco.IMF

I want to see something like SS-18 Satan.....

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> I want to see something like SS-18 Satan.....


It with be nothing important some more obsolete stuff

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## Arminkh

SOHEIL said:


> *Iran retires Ghadr (shahab-3) , Ghiam & F-110 BMs*​
> فرمانده نيروي هوا فضاي سپاه: رونمائي از نسل‌هاي جديد موشكي
> 
> فرمانده نیروی هوا فضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی از رونمایی نسل های جدید موشکی در سال آینده خبر داد.
> به گزارش خبرنگار خبرگزاری صدا و سیما (واحد مرکزی خبر)؛ سردار سرتیپ حاجی زاده در حاشیه پانزدهمین کنگره سرداران و 4 هزار شهید منطقه 17 تهران در مصاحبه اختصاصی با خبرنگار ما گفت: سال آینده موشک های فاتح 110، میانبرد قیام و قدر منسوخ و از رده خارج می شود و از نسل‌های جدید موشکی رونمایی می شود.
> وی افزود: این موشک ها همان برد موشک های سابق را دارند اما از نظر تکنولوژی و فنآوری پیشرفته تر هستند.
> 
> *But*
> 
> Unveiling it's new generation advanced BMs for the first time !
> 
> *Next iranian year !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> واحد مرکزی خبر | IRIB News​


How are they going to dispose off them? Hope fully some target practice against Daesh?

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## albator

Penguin said:


> Dear noob: Yes, very clever remark. You've made your point. Can we move on now and get down to business?




DEAR NOOD IN CHIEF.... thanks and yes we can move on ....

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## Bratva

What's point of retiring? keep churning water down versions and use them as decoys to overwhelm ABM defenses of adversaries.

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## rahi2357

what ???  it's just less than one month that they added some more Shahab III and Qiam missiles into service . I don't think that they gonna retire all of these missiles , but it means that new systems are on the way. or maybe he means that the first Shahab series (back in 1997 ) are going out of service.

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## fafarkhan

yavar said:


> It with nothing important some more obsolete stuff


hope its more ghiam style ....new navigation system , less taler

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## rmi5

rahi2357 said:


> what ???  it's just less than one month that they added some more Shahab III and Qiam missiles into service . I don't think that they gonna retire all of these missiles , but it means that new systems are on the way. or maybe he means that the first Shahab series (back in 1997 ) are going out of service.



It means that they are going to discontinue production of the announced missiles, and produce their new versions. I guess it does not mean that these missiles are gonna be retired or scrapped.

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## rahi2357

rmi5 said:


> It means that they are going to discontinue production of the announced missiles, and produce their new versions. I guess it does not mean that these missiles are gonna be retired or scrapped.


Agreed however I think these missiles don't have a service time of more than 8 years...even without fuel. solid rockets are the best choice. they have a really simple design but obtaining the fuel + making a reliable thrust vectoring system is extremely hard . I heard that Iran had some problems with sejjil's fuel (after some 2012 sanctions) .I still think using +500 km range BMs without nuclear warheads is not worthy. just some low accuracy artillery s . The real deterrence can be 10 road mobile solid fueled MRBM / IRBM / ICBM... missiles + 3 nuclear warheads each

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## rmi5

rahi2357 said:


> Agreed however I think these missiles don't have a service time of more than 8 years...even without fuel. solid rockets are the best choice. they have a really simple design but obtaining the fuel + making a reliable thrust vectoring system is extremely hard . I heard that Iran had some problems with sejjil's fuel (after some 2012 sanctions) .I still think using +500 km range BMs without nuclear warheads is not worthy. just some low accuracy artillery s . The real deterrence can be 10 road mobile solid fueled MRBM / IRBM / ICBM... missiles + 3 nuclear warheads each



It depends on what do you expect from ballistic missiles. Ballistic missiles are *mostly(not always)* for putting pressure on your enemy's public, and not necessarily for targeting something with a good accuracy. In such cases, except for some early scuds that had accuracy of 5-10 km and sometimes could not even target a city  , other ballistic missiles does the intended job very well.  Nuke warheads are in another higher level of deterrence  Although if a country has KH-55 for that mission, then they can deliver nukes for a larger range than what you mentioned

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## yavar

rmi5 said:


> It means that they are going to discontinue production of the announced missiles,





SOHEIL said:


> منسوخ و از رده خارج می شود



stop making things up . the word they used was out service obsolete NOT discontinue making them .

i know you don't like it but you can't BS use


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## yavar

افتتاح خط تولید انبوه موشک ۳۰۰ کیلومتری کروز «قدیر» و تحویل آن به نیروی دریایی سپاه 





با حضور وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح و فرمانده نیروی دریایی سپاه، خط تولید انبوه موشک کروز دریایی ضد ناو برد بلند در وزارت دفاع افتتاح و مقادیر معتنابهی از آن به نیروی دریایی سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی تحویل شد. 
ه نقل از اداره کل تبلیغات دفاعی وزارت دفاع، خط تولید انبوه موشک کروز دریایی ضد ناو برد بلند در سازمان صنایع هوافضای وزارت دفاع با حضور سردار حسین دهقان و سردار علی فدوی فرمانده نیروی دریایی سپاه افتتاح و مقادیر معتنابهی از آن به نیروی دریایی سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی تحویل شد. 
سردار دهقان در جمع خبرنگاران طی سخنانی با گرامیداشت روز شهید اظهار داشت: پس از اتمام تحقیقات، نمونه سازی، انجام آزمایشات موفق پروازی و رونمایی از موشک کروز دریایی قدیر به مناسبت روز صنعت دفاعی سال جاری که با حضور ریاست محترم جمهور انجام شد، امروز بحول و قوه الهی شاهد افتتاح همزمان خط تولید انبوه و تحویل دهی این موشک راهبردی و موثر در عرصه دفاع و رزم دریایی هستیم.
وزیر دفاع، آماده سازی و واکنش سریع، ارتفاع پروازی پایین، دقت بالای ناوبری، اصابت دقیق به اهداف، قدرت تخریب زیاد، ضد جنگ الکترونیک بالا به واسطه مجهز بودن به رادارهای پیشرفته و قابلیت پرتاب از روی انواع شناور و بالگرد که بر افزایش برد آن نیز تأثیر بسزایی دارد را از ویژگی های این سامانه موشکی 
بر شمرد
دهقان با بیان اینکه امروز وزارت دفاع با تولید کاملاً بومی انواع موشک با کاربردهای متنوع در منطقه حرف اول را می زند، تصریح کرد: دقت و سرعت عمل و کیفیت بالای این محصولات مهم توان رزم نیروهای مسلح در هوا، دریا و زمین به نحو چشمگیری افزایش داده است.
وزیر دفاع با اشاره به فرامین مقام معظم فرماندهی کل قوا و راهبرد دولت یازدهم در تقویت توان رزم نیروهای مسلح به ویژه در حوزه موشکی، تأکید کرد: وزارت دفاع در دو ساله گذشته بر افزایش برد، افزایش تحرک و تاکتیکی شدن موشک ها تمرکز داشته به طوری که در تصاویر مستند پرتاب و اصابت به هدف این موشک مشاهده می کنید ، موشک قدیر از فاصله 300 کیلومتری از ساحل موفق شده تا هدف دریایی خود را به دقت شناسایی و مورد اصابت قرار داده و آن را به طورکامل منهدم کند 
دهقان با قدردانی از تلاش دانشمندان، نخبگان و متخصصان سازمان صنایع هوافضای وزارت دفاع و دیگر سازمان های این وزارتخانه که در طراحی، ساخت و تولید انبوه این موشک مشارکت داشته‌اند، اعلام کرد: موشک های جدید ساخت وزارت دفاع با قابلیت های بسیار پیشرفته تر انشاءالله در سال آینده تحویل نیروهای مسلح خواهد شد. 





با حضور سرداران دهقان و فدوی صورت گرفت افتتاح خط تولید انبوه موشک ۳۰۰ کیلومتری کروز «قدیر» و تحویل آن به نیروی دریایی سپاه​

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> stop making things up . the word they used was out service obsolete NOT discontinue making them .
> 
> i know you don't like it but you can't BS use



What about brand new ghiam missiles !?

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## MTN1917

yavar said:


> stop making things up . the word they used was out service obsolete NOT discontinue making them .
> 
> i know you don't like it but you can't BS use


I don't think that they are going to retire these missiles, what general Hajizade meant was probably that these missiles are no longer Iran's newest designs and that a new generations of more advanced missiles will take their place but I don't think we are going to retire them immediately because IRGC ASF just took delivery of a massive number of Qadr and Qiam ballistic missiles last week.

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## yavar

MTN1917 said:


> I don't think that they are going to retire these missiles, what general Hajizade meant was probably that these missiles are no longer Iran's newest designs and that a new generations of more advanced missiles will take their place but I don't think we are going to retire them immediately because IRGC ASF just took delivery of a massive number of Qadr and Qiam ballistic missiles last week.



I disagree brother . the missile will be only used for training and quantity

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## MTN1917

yavar said:


> I disagree brother . the missile will be only used for training and quantity


Maybe they won't be the frontline missile which will hit the most important targets but they are definitely going to be used in massive numbers in case of war.

As you said, quantity itself means that they are going to be operational and not scrapped.

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## SOHEIL

MTN1917 said:


> I don't think that they are going to retire these missiles, what general Hajizade meant was probably that these missiles are no longer Iran's newest designs and that a new generations of more advanced missiles will take their place but I don't think we are going to retire them immediately because IRGC ASF just took delivery of a massive number of Qadr and Qiam ballistic missiles last week.



Maybe export them to syria & lebanon !

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## yavar

MTN1917 said:


> As you said, quantity i.




it means whenever there is TV reporters are present they will bring these obsolete and show case them .
and ni case of war if we run out the main ones they start using them but that possible we alot of ................

and some of them they will be scraped .my point view .

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> it means whenever there is TV reporter are present they will bring these obsolete and show case them .
> and if i case of war we run out the main one they start using them but that possible we .
> 
> and some of them they will be scraped my point view .



Please work on your english !

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## Abii

MTN1917 said:


> Maybe they won't be the frontline missile which will hit the most important targets but they are definitely going to be used in massive numbers in case of war.
> 
> As you said, quantity itself means that they are going to be operational and not scrapped.


What's a "massive number"?

Think about it this way. Between 2003 and 2005, the Americans dropped 500,000 tons of ordinance on Iraq. IN 2 YEARS they dropped 500,000 tons. Those were "surgical strikes" with near perfect accuracy. 

How many missiles will Iran send in the first few days of a war? 100? 100-150 if we're being very generous. Divided between 3 countries (Israel, UAE and Kuwait) that's 30-35 missiles. None of them are accurate. Iran doesn't even have GPS. Out of the 30 that go to Israel, most will either miss their targets or get shot down by the Iron Dome. Say 10 hit their targets in some miraculous fashion. That's 10 X 2 tons. *20 tons of ordinance compared to 500,000 tons in 2 years by the Americans. 
*

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## SOHEIL

Abii said:


> What's a "massive number"?
> 
> Think about it this way. Between 2003 and 2005, the Americans dropped 500,000 tons of ordinance on Iraq. IN 2 YEARS they dropped 500,000 tons. Those were "surgical strikes" with near perfect accuracy.
> 
> How many missiles will Iran send in the first few days of a war? 100? 100-150 if we're being very generous. Divided between 3 countries (Israel, UAE and Kuwait) that's 30-35 missiles. None of them are accurate. Iran doesn't even have GPS. Out of the 30 that go to Israel, most will either miss their targets or get shot down by the Iron Dome. Say 10 hit their targets in some miraculous fashion. That's 10 X 2 tons. *20 tons of ordinance compared to 500,000 tons in 2 years by the Americans. *

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Please work on your english !


ok i correct it sorry .

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## Abii

SOHEIL said:


>


Kardi khodeto ba in emoticona Soheil. 

3/4 postat spamme. Bad be Yavar migi be engilisish berese lol

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## SOHEIL

Abii said:


> Kardi khodeto ba in emoticona Soheil.
> 
> 3/4 postat spamme. Bad be Yavar migi be engilisish berese lol



shoma dari khod koni mikoni !!!

akhe age gharar bod hamle konand 10 sal pish karde bodan !

chera fekr mikoni az hame chi khabar dari !?

fekr kardi amrika mitone biad rahat bomb bendaze !?

harfet az lahaz nezami pashm hast ... pashm !

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## yavar

Iran "Ghadir" Anti-ship cruise missile with range 300 KM 






Iran "Ghadir" Anti-ship cruise missile with range 300 KM launched from land base launcher






Iran "Ghadir" Anti-ship cruise missile with range 300 KM

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## New

yavar said:


> ok i correct it sorry .


Dude, you are so cute.

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## SOHEIL

New said:


> Dude, you are so cute.

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## Shams313

Draco.IMF said:


> I want to see something like SS-18 Satan.....


O O O!!! wait dude. U can't hope a child birth to a pregnant mother within one month. U must wait for 9 month.

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## mohsen

Abii said:


> What's a "massive number"?
> 
> Think about it this way. Between 2003 and 2005, the Americans dropped 500,000 tons of ordinance on Iraq. IN 2 YEARS they dropped 500,000 tons. Those were "surgical strikes" with near perfect accuracy.
> 
> How many missiles will Iran send in the first few days of a war? 100? 100-150 if we're being very generous. Divided between 3 countries (Israel, UAE and Kuwait) that's 30-35 missiles. None of them are accurate. Iran doesn't even have GPS. Out of the 30 that go to Israel, most will either miss their targets or get shot down by the Iron Dome. Say 10 hit their targets in some miraculous fashion. That's 10 X 2 tons. *20 tons of ordinance compared to 500,000 tons in 2 years by the Americans.
> *


so you think a Qadr missile which can find its target 1900km away in the sea, will miss the target in Israel, good to know about your analysis.
about GPS, be sure that will apply to our enemies too, and actually they rely much much more on it.

and about the quantity, as brigadier Salami said producing these missiles for us is as cheap and easy as making artillery shell.

fifty missile launchers were present at the current war game (only on the ground, without counting the hidden silos), and only 4 of them fired. but that's not the case in the real war.
you can count on hundreds missile for each military ship present at the Persian gulf.

U.S is the same country which didn't even dare to attack Syria. even their dreams of attacking us will turn into a nightmare.

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## New

SOHEIL said:


>


Soheil you are cute, too.
Soheil may I ask you a question?
How old are you and Yavar?
I mean, I know you must be something around 21, 22, but I've no idea, how old might yavar be.
To give guessing a chance, I would say, yavar is around 16, 17 years old, am I right?

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## MTN1917

Abii said:


> What's a "massive number"?
> 
> Think about it this way. Between 2003 and 2005, the Americans dropped 500,000 tons of ordinance on Iraq. IN 2 YEARS they dropped 500,000 tons. Those were "surgical strikes" with near perfect accuracy.
> 
> How many missiles will Iran send in the first few days of a war? 100? 100-150 if we're being very generous. Divided between 3 countries (Israel, UAE and Kuwait) that's 30-35 missiles. None of them are accurate. Iran doesn't even have GPS. Out of the 30 that go to Israel, most will either miss their targets or get shot down by the Iron Dome. Say 10 hit their targets in some miraculous fashion. That's 10 X 2 tons. *20 tons of ordinance compared to 500,000 tons in 2 years by the Americans. *


We have had this conversation before!

Iran has more than a thousand(if not several thousands) of SRBMs, in the last week alone we have seen the delivery of more than 50 Qiam SRBMs, the numbers of Iran's MRBMs is also in the hundreds.

Also Iran's missiles CEP has improved dramatically, Iran's SRBMs are now very accurate and its MRBMs also have acceptable CEP , if there is a war with Israel there will be hundreds of missile not just ten that will hit Israeli targets.

Take a look at these TELs.













IRGC ASF took delivery of more than three dozens of these MRBM TELs in one ceremony and there are several missile for each TEL, you can do the math.

Ridiculous western sources have been claiming for more than 2 decades than Iran has between 6-12 TELs!!!!

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## SOHEIL

New said:


> Soheil you are cute, too.
> Soheil may I ask you a question?
> How old are you and Yavar?
> I mean, I know you must be something around 21, 22, but I've no idea, how old might yavar be.
> To give guessing a chance, I would say, yavar is around 16, 17 years old, am I right?



I'm 24 ...





منظور !؟

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## haman10

The new missiles will have the SAME range but more accurate and advanced in Tech (maybe stealth a little ?  )

i think the most interesting part about the new delivery systems is their accuracy . its really hard to achieve pin-point accuracy in longer range missiles that Iran is producing (Up to 3000 km range) but they have reached the capability and they're going to expand it 

Doostan mishe khahesh konam bahs off-topic nakonin ? :super angry haman:

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## The SC

Abii said:


> What's a "massive number"?
> 
> Think about it this way. Between 2003 and 2005, the Americans dropped 500,000 tons of ordinance on Iraq. IN 2 YEARS they dropped 500,000 tons. Those were "surgical strikes" with near perfect accuracy.
> 
> How many missiles will Iran send in the first few days of a war? 100? 100-150 if we're being very generous. Divided between 3 countries (Israel, UAE and Kuwait) that's 30-35 missiles. None of them are accurate. Iran doesn't even have GPS. Out of the 30 that go to Israel, most will either miss their targets or get shot down by the Iron Dome. Say 10 hit their targets in some miraculous fashion. That's 10 X 2 tons. *20 tons of ordinance compared to 500,000 tons in 2 years by the Americans.
> *



They have talked about sending 10 000 BM in the first hours of war. do the math for that please, just to be in tune with the Iranian generals who have made the claim... if just 2000 of them get through in the first salvo, let's say that 8000 get intercepted. In a second equal salvo you can be sure that at least 5000 will go through and so on, hence completely saturating the whom it may concern defenses and defensive abilities, they will match the 2 years 500 000 tons in 3 months maximum. And I do believe them, because that is the capability that made them give up the nuclear weapons option, add to it secret very high explosives and fuel air bombs, plus pinpoint accuracy and you'll understand why the West wanted to add the Iranian missile capability in the current nuclear negotiations.

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## yavar

Iran "Ghadir" Anti-ship cruise missile with range 300 KM

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS

Iran General Fadavi and General Dehghan on subsurface missile SLCM test in February 27, 2015






ریادار فدوی همچنین، پاسخ به سوالی درباره موشک زیرآبی سپاه که در رزمایش پیامبر اعظم(ص) 9 تست شد را به زمان مناسبی موکول کرد.

خبرگزاری بین المللی تسنیم - تجهیز بالگردهای سپاه به کروز ۳۰۰ کیلومتری قدیر



look at how much and how long they are both laughing .

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> look at how much and how long they are both laughing .


why they are laughing?

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> why they are laughing?


the journalists ask them both a question on this missile




trying to get some answers

but they said both they can not say anything and they are just made jokes and laughed .

if someone can do accurate translation it would be helpful

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## SOHEIL

@yavar ... Ghaem-6 involved !?

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## Draco.IMF

So what we can expect?
Silo based?
Improved CEP? 
Better miniaturizing?
Build from other components (stelth)?
Greater range?
Improved fuel (faster...)?
Cold/Hot launch?
MIRV warheads?

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar ... Ghaem-6 involved !?


This is Ruhani administration so nothing is set . Even they may cancel the whole event .

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## SipahSalar

I don't think that's a smart move. Who the hell retires missiles? No one, unless you have a budget like USA, you don't retire missiles. Pakistan still has its Hatf.1 missiles in active service.


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## Minute by Minute

Not Word by Word:
the jouralists have insisted upon more information about the missile tested during the drill, but with no luck. The respond is, that the missile in questin is a special kind of missile and will not be shown publicly in "delivery ceremonies" like this with cameras roling. They say, that the missile is built for a special time and the delivery will be directly to the enemy. And they laugh!

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> This is Ruhani administration so nothing is set . Even they may cancel the whole event .



How could you call that missile obsolete !?

Not a long range but a real killer !

A silo base solid fuel (TVC) is obsolete !?

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## The SC

SipahSalar said:


> I don't think that's a smart move. Who the hell retires missiles? No one, unless you have a budget like USA, you don't retire missiles. Pakistan still has its Hatf.1 missiles in active service.


They are not retiring them, they will replace their production with newer and more sophisticated ones that will be added to the existing ones. And maybe upgrading some to the new standards.

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## The SC

*Iran Plans to Replace Missile Arsenal*

TEHRAN (FNA)- Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh announced Iran's plans to replace its Fateh, Qiyam and Qadr missile series with a new generation of missiles next year.
"We will abolish Fateh 110 missiles (a short-range, road-mobile, solid-propellant, high-precision ballistic missile with advanced navigation and control systems) as well as the mid-range (high-precision ballistic) Qiyam and Qadr (first generation of air-launched precision-guided) missiles to replace them with new missiles," Hajizadeh said in Tehran on Friday.

He referred to the unveiling of long-range ground-to-ground Soumar cruise missile system last week, reminding that the weapon system has been built built under harsh sanctions.

Iran unveiled 'Soumar' missile system in a ceremony attended by senior military officials and commanders on Sunday.

"The long-range ground-to-ground Soumar cruise missile system has been designed and built by experts of the defense ministry's aerospace industries organization," Defense Minister Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan told reporters after the unveiling ceremony.

"The designing and building of this weapon whose navigation and propulsion systems and its structure enjoy complicated and new technologies is seen as a wide stride taken to enhance the Islamic Republic of Iran's defensive and deterrence power," he added.

Dehqan also announced the mass delivery of Qadr and Qiyam long-range ballistic missiles to the IRGC's Aerospace Force, and said these missiles are capable of destroying different types of targets under any type of conditions due to their tactical capability, sustainability in the battleground and radar-evading features.

He also announced that the defense ministry would deliver upgraded versions of these long-range and high-precision missiles to the Iranian military forces next year.

Also during the ceremony, Hajizadeh hailed Iran's advancements in missile technology under the harshest sanctions imposed on the country, and underlined that Iran would never allow its defense program and cruise missiles become a topic in its negotiations with the world powers.

The Iranian Armed Forces have recently test-fired different types of newly-developed missiles and torpedoes and tested a large number of home-made weapons, tools and equipment, including submarines, military ships, artillery, choppers, aircrafts, UAVs and air defense and electronic systems, during massive military drills.

Defense analysts and military observers say that Iran's wargames and its advancements in weapons production have proved as a deterrent factor.

Iran successfully tested second generation of Sejjil missiles and brought it into mass production in 2013.

Sejjil missiles are considered as the third generation of Iran-made long-range missiles.

Also, Iran's 2000km-range, liquid-fuel, Qadr F ballistic missile can reach territories as far as Israel.

Iran's surface-to-surface Sejjil missile, the long-range Shahab-3 ballistic missile which has a range of up to 2,000 km, and Zelzal and Fateh missiles have all been developed by the Aerospace Organization of the Defense Industries.

This is while the solid-fuel, two-stage Sejjil missile with two engines, is capable of reaching a very high altitude and therefore has a longer range than that of the Shahab 3 model.

Farsnews

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## New

SOHEIL said:


> I'm 24 ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> منظور !؟


haminjoori, 
yavar ro nemidooni chand saleshe? 
yavar jan, azizam mishe soal konam shoma hodoodan chand salete?


haman10 said:


> Doostan mishe khahesh konam bahs off-topic nakonin ?


na nemishe.

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## PeeD

In nuclear warfare doctrine there is the concept of counter force and counter value.

The doctrine is also applicable to a force equipped with large amounts of conventional ballistic missiles.

Irans arsenal from Shahab-1 to Ghadr will always be a counter value asset for Iran (although with a low survivability). More so for the liquid fueled ones which have a almost infinite life time. It makes no sense to scrap a arsenal of conventional counter value assets even if their use is quite complicated (Shahab-3) compared to new generation missiles, it still delivers one ton to more than 1000km distance.

If Iran has special warheads, then these missiles may quit "frontline" service but they remain an available asset with trained crews and prepared support systems.

If the stockpiles are now, 2015, after 20 years of production big enough to ensure a credible counter value force then their production might be discontinued, yes.

The successors of these systems would be more counter force orientated assets with higher tactical capability (means solid fuel). The Fateh-110, Sedjil and advanced Ghadr variants now fill up the role of counter force assets and these could be replaced by better weapons with higher tactical capability.

It's a natural development: Iran has a conventional counter value asset, with more or less infinite lifetime, with an arsenal created over the past 20 years. Its survivability and therefore its capability to be deployed will depend on the counter force assets.

This counter value capability will only see a next phase with nuclear warheads.

The counter force arsenal is more limited and has been in production for about 10 years and still needs numbers and improved tactical capabilities. Naturally most counter force assets can be also used for counter value but they are more expensive which restricts their use for this purpose. High accuracy and uncomplicated use/quick employment is whats important here. A follow on system that should replace the Sejil and advanced Ghadr variants should be all-solid fueled, highly accurate, off-road mobile and tube launched and multi-warhead. High payload and compact size should be realized with a large diameter and small length.

If counter force weapons are employed successfully they should make the use of counter value assets unnecessary and even if they are to be used, Irans low survivability conventional arsenal would have a chance to be employed relatively undisturbed.

I hope this makes clear why a conventional counter value asset which as the Shahab-1/2/3 will not simply get scrapped. Its a asset with high value for which huge resources have been invested over the past 20 years. It might not be a important frontline system anymore and no candidate for special warheads but still delivers a strong punsh if necessary and has not the same life-time restrictions as advanced soild fuel missiles.

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## haman10

New said:


> na nemishe.


blah blah 

Az een b baad ba ejaze javab shookhi hato midam dada 

goftam ye heads up bedam nagi bi adabe

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## yavar

*Iran Produces First Long-Range Missile*





TEL-AVIV—Iran has unveiled a domestically produced long-range land attack cruise missile, dubbed Soumar.
Based on the Russian Kh-55, the Soumar is believed to have a range of at least 2,000 km. “This missile represents a significant leap in the Middle East arms race,” says Col. Aviram Hasson of Israel’s Missile Defense Organization.

“It positions Iran among the world’s leaders in missile technology,” a Western intelligence source adds.

Iranian defense minister Hussein Dehghan presented the new surface-to-surface missile on March 8 as an “effective step” in boosting the country’s defense and deterrence capabilities. Dehghan described the Soumar as capable of hitting long-range targets with “high accuracy, while evading enemy counter-measures.” Western intelligence sources noted that the missile’s warhead appears smaller than the Russian original and is incapable of carrying a nuclear device. Iranian media reported that the missile completed its testing and is now in serial production.

It has been 14 years since Iran managed to procure six Russian Kh-55 (NATO: ‘Kent’, AS-15A) air-launched cruise missiles from Ukraine. According to a Ukrainian Attorney General statement, released in 2005, the missiles were smuggled outside the country by senior officials of Ukrainian State’s UkrSpetzExport organization in 2000. While most of the Ukrainian arsenal of hundreds of Kh-55s was destroyed or transferred to Russia, six missiles were sold to China and six to Iran in a breach of a Ukrainian-Russian agreement and the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). The missiles, originally designed to be launched from a Tupolev Tu-160 aircraft, were delivered to Iran without the Ukranian R95-300 turbofan engine and without the original terrain counter matching (TERCOM) navigation system.

Iran secretly received the missiles in the first half of 2001 and began reverse engineering work. But unlike its publicly displayed ballistic missile program, Iran did not admit to having a cruise missile program until 2012. At that time, it displayed a prototype dubbed Meshkat (flashlight), declaring it has a range of 2,000 km. Iran has said it also developed an indigenous turbofan engine for the missile. The six Soumar missiles revealed now are equipped with an engine with very close resemblance to the Ukrainian R95. This might suggest that Iran has acquired turbofan engines separately from the missiles. Unlike the Russian original, the Soumar’s engine is not pulled out from the missile’s body, but installed externally on it.

Western intelligence officials, who examined footage of the Soumar released by Iranian television, have found the missile to be a little longer than 6 meters, with the original diameter of 20.2”. Its full weight is 1,210 kg, or 1,530 kg with the booster rocket. The warhead appears to weigh 150-170 kg, which makes it incapable of carrying a nuclear weapon. Its maximum cruise speed is estimated at Mach 0.7, and the radar-cross section appears larger than the Tomahawk’s.

No sensor is installed in the missile’s nose, which means it is guided by a GPS/INS navigation system. Therefore, its accuracy is estimated at about 50 meters. “It is equipped with a Doppler-pulse radar, which compares measurements to a pre-programmed map, enabling it to follow the terrain at an altitude of 300 ft. in the last stages of flight,” an intelligence official says.

Named for the town that suffered an Iraqi chemical weapons attack during the Iran-Iraq war, the Soumar was displayed with a ground launcher. As the missile is ejected from the canister, three aerodynamic navigation winglets unfold as well as four “tennis-bat” shaped stabilizing winglets. Following the burn of the rocket booster, the missile appears to stabilize in a horizontal flight, constantly ascending to cruise altitude. The cruise flight is navigated through pre-programmed way points, and as it approaches the target area, the Soumar performs a pop-up maneuver and dives towards the target.

“The Iranian engineers attempted to stick as much as possible to the original Ukrainian design,” said the intelligence source. “Yet, the missile’s systems demonstrate remarkable technological capabilities.”

The new missile is raising concerns in Israel, Iran’s arch-enemy. Asked whether Israeli missile defense systems are prepared to deal with such a cruise missile, Hasson said: “I would not comment on our current capabilities.” Israel is developing the David’s Sling missile defense system, designed to counter heavy rockets as well as cruise missiles. “We will conduct two extensive test series of the David’s Sling this year,” said Hasson. “By the end of the year, David’s Sling will have initial operational capability.”


Iran Produces First Long-Range Missile | Military & Government content from Aviation Week

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## Shams313

Seems that,They are heavily warned.

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## yavar

*Iran Produces First Long-Range Missile*




TEL-AVIV—Iran has unveiled a domestically produced long-range land attack cruise missile, dubbed Soumar.
Based on the Russian Kh-55, the Soumar is believed to have a range of at least 2,000 km. “This missile represents a significant leap in the Middle East arms race,” says Col. Aviram Hasson of Israel’s Missile Defense Organization.

“It positions Iran among the world’s leaders in missile technology,” a Western intelligence source adds.

Iranian defense minister Hussein Dehghan presented the new surface-to-surface missile on March 8 as an “effective step” in boosting the country’s defense and deterrence capabilities. Dehghan described the Soumar as capable of hitting long-range targets with “high accuracy, while evading enemy counter-measures.” Western intelligence sources noted that the missile’s warhead appears smaller than the Russian original and is incapable of carrying a nuclear device. Iranian media reported that the missile completed its testing and is now in serial production.

It has been 14 years since Iran managed to procure six Russian Kh-55 (NATO: ‘Kent’, AS-15A) air-launched cruise missiles from Ukraine. According to a Ukrainian Attorney General statement, released in 2005, the missiles were smuggled outside the country by senior officials of Ukrainian State’s UkrSpetzExport organization in 2000. While most of the Ukrainian arsenal of hundreds of Kh-55s was destroyed or transferred to Russia, six missiles were sold to China and six to Iran in a breach of a Ukrainian-Russian agreement and the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). The missiles, originally designed to be launched from a Tupolev Tu-160 aircraft, were delivered to Iran without the Ukranian R95-300 turbofan engine and without the original terrain counter matching (TERCOM) navigation system.

Iran secretly received the missiles in the first half of 2001 and began reverse engineering work. But unlike its publicly displayed ballistic missile program, Iran did not admit to having a cruise missile program until 2012. At that time, it displayed a prototype dubbed Meshkat (flashlight), declaring it has a range of 2,000 km. Iran has said it also developed an indigenous turbofan engine for the missile. The six Soumar missiles revealed now are equipped with an engine with very close resemblance to the Ukrainian R95. This might suggest that Iran has acquired turbofan engines separately from the missiles. Unlike the Russian original, the Soumar’s engine is not pulled out from the missile’s body, but installed externally on it.

Western intelligence officials, who examined footage of the Soumar released by Iranian television, have found the missile to be a little longer than 6 meters, with the original diameter of 20.2”. Its full weight is 1,210 kg, or 1,530 kg with the booster rocket. The warhead appears to weigh 150-170 kg, which makes it incapable of carrying a nuclear weapon. Its maximum cruise speed is estimated at Mach 0.7, and the radar-cross section appears larger than the Tomahawk’s.

No sensor is installed in the missile’s nose, which means it is guided by a GPS/INS navigation system. Therefore, its accuracy is estimated at about 50 meters. “It is equipped with a Doppler-pulse radar, which compares measurements to a pre-programmed map, enabling it to follow the terrain at an altitude of 300 ft. in the last stages of flight,” an intelligence official says.

Named for the town that suffered an Iraqi chemical weapons attack during the Iran-Iraq war, the Soumar was displayed with a ground launcher. As the missile is ejected from the canister, three aerodynamic navigation winglets unfold as well as four “tennis-bat” shaped stabilizing winglets. Following the burn of the rocket booster, the missile appears to stabilize in a horizontal flight, constantly ascending to cruise altitude. The cruise flight is navigated through pre-programmed way points, and as it approaches the target area, the Soumar performs a pop-up maneuver and dives towards the target.

“The Iranian engineers attempted to stick as much as possible to the original Ukrainian design,” said the intelligence source. “Yet, the missile’s systems demonstrate remarkable technological capabilities.”

The new missile is raising concerns in Israel, Iran’s arch-enemy. Asked whether Israeli missile defense systems are prepared to deal with such a cruise missile, Hasson said: “I would not comment on our current capabilities.” Israel is developing the David’s Sling missile defense system, designed to counter heavy rockets as well as cruise missiles. “We will conduct two extensive test series of the David’s Sling this year,” said Hasson. “By the end of the year, David’s Sling will have initial operational capability.”


Iran Produces First Long-Range Missile | Military & Government content from Aviation Week


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## SrNair

Congratulations to Iran and our Iranian friends in here 

@haman @SOHEIL @kollang @yavar and others



SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 200586




@haman10 @SOHEIL @yavar .You can target our entire nation

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> “This missile represents a significant leap in the Middle East arms race,” says Col. Aviram Hasson of Israel’s Missile Defense Organization.





yavar said:


> “It positions Iran among the world’s leaders in missile technology,” a Western intelligence source adds.





yavar said:


> The missiles, originally designed to be launched from a Tupolev Tu-160 aircraft, were delivered to Iran *without the Ukranian R95-300 turbofan engine* and *without the original terrain counter matching (TERCOM)* navigation system.





yavar said:


> Iran secretly received the missiles in the first half of 2001 and began reverse engineering work. But unlike its publicly displayed ballistic missile program, Iran did not admit to having a cruise missile program until 2012. At that time, it displayed a prototype dubbed Meshkat (flashlight), declaring it has a range of 2,000 km. Iran has said it also developed an indigenous turbofan engine for the missile.





yavar said:


> Western intelligence officials, who examined footage of the Soumar released by Iranian television, have found the missile to be a little longer than 6 meters, with the original diameter of 20.2”. Its full weight is 1,210 kg, or 1,530 kg with the booster rocket. The warhead appears to weigh 150-170 kg, which makes it incapable of carrying a nuclear weapon. Its maximum cruise speed is estimated at Mach 0.7, and the radar-cross section appears larger than the Tomahawk’s.





yavar said:


> “The Iranian engineers attempted to stick as much as possible to the original Ukrainian design,” said the intelligence source. “Yet, the missile’s systems demonstrate remarkable technological capabilities.”





yavar said:


> The new missile is raising concerns in Israel, Iran’s arch-enemy. Asked whether Israeli missile defense systems are prepared to deal with such a cruise missile, Hasson said: “I would not comment on our current capabilities.” Israel is developing the David’s Sling missile defense system, designed to counter heavy rockets as well as cruise missiles. “We will conduct two extensive test series of the David’s Sling this year,” said Hasson. “By the end of the year, David’s Sling will have initial operational capability.”

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## Shahryar Hedayati

SrNair said:


> .You can target our entire nation



God Forbid

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## haman10

SrNair said:


> Congratulations to Iran and our Iranian friends in here


Tnx bro 



SrNair said:


> You can target our entire nation




NATO is our intention

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## SrNair

Shahryar Hedayati said:


> God Forbid


I was just kidding bro .
So it just enters in to full serial production .Right?A few weeks ago one of Iranian.member in here said me that US cant attack Iran like they did against the Iraq unless their assets are attacked by Iran .I think you were just mentioning about a new version of Ballistic Missile.Now I got it It was about this cruise missile .I think it has around 3000 km range .Now you can just destroy Israel with a saturation of this missile .


haman10 said:


> Tnx bro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NATO is our intention

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## SOHEIL



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## Draco.IMF

SOHEIL said:


>



Soheil, again, please always add a comment/description to your pictures, to avoid confusions, thanks
This is Yars missile?

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## SOHEIL

Draco.IMF said:


> Soheil, again, please always add a comment/description to your pictures, to avoid confusions, thanks
> This is Yars missile?



RT-23U

Don't mind the range & size ... just enjoy the cold launch !

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## Shahryar Hedayati

*Iran Plans to Replace Missile Arsenal
*






TEHRAN (FNA)- Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh announced Iran's plans to replace its Fateh, Qiyam and Qadr missile series with a new generation of missiles next year.
"We will abolish Fateh 110 missiles (a short-range, road-mobile, solid-propellant, high-precision ballistic missile with advanced navigation and control systems) as well as the mid-range (high-precision ballistic) Qiyam and Qadr (first generation of air-launched precision-guided) missiles to replace them with new missiles," Hajizadeh said in Tehran on Friday.













Shahryar Hedayati said:


> *Iran Plans to Replace Missile Arsenal
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




*Do you ever wonder why Farsnews choose that picture???*

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## SOHEIL



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## Draco.IMF

Im curiouse when we will see first Iranian cruise missiles derivated from Tomahawk missiles (more compact/jet engine inside....)

Iran’s cruise missile could strike targets beyond 2000 km | Defense Update:


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## SOHEIL

Draco.IMF said:


> Im curiouse when we will see first Iranian cruise missiles derivated from Tomahawk missiles (more compact/jet engine inside....)
> 
> Iran’s cruise missile could strike targets beyond 2000 km | Defense Update:



Mini Tomahawk

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## Cyrus the Great

MarkusS said:


> That doesn´t create much trust for iranian. Its also quite stupid. We are right in the 5+1 debates and hope for a solution. Israel tries heavily to sabotage our deal with Iran and what does Iran do? Fires its propaganda show like always. I think it would be smarter for you guys to cool it down right now.



In fact it is the only language US and EU understand, they never negotiate with good faith but with fear. they are a package message to the table to say we are ready for deal but do not push us.

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## Sine Nomine

25 years for reverse engineering Kh-55
اما خوب برای از بین بردن دشمنان خواهد بود



Bornubus said:


> The countries who are blessed with superior Space technology are by default ....leaders in missile tech....range doesn't matter for them 2500 km or 10000 km.....its true for *Iran,India*,US,Russia , Israel,china and EU.....other than us.... are thieves and proliferators of tech.....so cheers we are the real papas....


Are sure when nirbhey is running on Russian engine,LCA is still not fully operational after 28 years....



Daneshmand said:


> Iran will eventually make something similar to it based on Russian Oniks from Syria


Syrian entire shipment was destroyed on strike on latakia by zioni scums...

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## SOHEIL

قناص said:


> *25* years for reverse engineering Kh-55





yavar said:


> Iran secretly received the missiles in the first half of *2001* and began reverse engineering work.



2015 - 2001 = 25 !?

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## Sine Nomine

SOHEIL said:


> 2015 - 2001 = 25 !?


They were delivered before that...


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## -SINAN-

Daneshmand said:


> That is why you are begging China


This is have you define and International RFP issued by SMM because you have inferiority complex. 

He comes at you with technical and productional aspects but you can't do anything than running your mouth becaus you are illiterate in terms of defence products. Pity you. 

It's funny that in the whole Iranian section with it's users nearly 100 people. There is not a guy that understands defence products.


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## Korosh kabir

Sinan said:


> This is have you define and International RFP issued by SMM because you have inferiority complex.
> 
> He comes at you with technical and productional aspects but you can't do anything than running your mouth becaus you are illiterate in terms of defence products. Pity you.
> 
> It's funny that in the whole Iranian section with it's users nearly 100 people. There is not a guy that understands defence products.



oh let me see.....whomm ......a country that can't even wipe it's own *** in arm technology independently wanna gives Iranians a definition in terms of defense product. 
I see so many Turks here trying to down play Iranian achievements and I don't really get it ,the only things that I can think of is 1- you 're too scared and your fear grows up day by day by Iran's growing power ,witch I don't see any relevant here as long as Turkey mind her own business and tries not to sabotage Iran 2- you're so jealous that you can't be the same in weapon technology term .
matter of fact Turkey and Iran should be allies together ,Turkey was part of great Persia empire for thousand years and have many things in common like cultural ,religion ,history, ethnic even language hosting many parsi words in it ,as far as i know Iranians Likes Turkish people and they treat them like one of own ,this feeling is really different towards Persian gulf Arab States . so don't push your luck my Turkish friends .

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## SOHEIL

قناص said:


> They were delivered before that...



Even if true ... Iran's technological level in 2000s is not comparable with 2010s !

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## Sine Nomine

SOHEIL said:


> Even if true ... Iran's technological level in 2000s is not comparable with 2010s !


no doubt in that but still it is great achievement,only it's matter of time after sanctions are lifted i hope many US,Nato bitten countries would have access to Iranian hardware...

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## -SINAN-

Korosh kabir said:


> oh let me see.....whomm ......a country that can't even wipe it's own *** in arm technology independently wanna gives Iranians a definition in terms of defense product.
> I see so many Turks here trying to down play Iranian achievements and I don't really get it ,the only things that I can think of is 1- you 're too scared and your fear grows up day by day by Iran's growing power ,witch I don't see any relevant here as long as Turkey mind her own business and tries not to sabotage Iran 2- you're so jealous that you can't be the same in weapon technology term .
> matter of fact Turkey and Iran should be allies together ,Turkey was part of great Persia empire for thousand years and have many things in common like cultural ,religion ,history, ethnic even language hosting many parsi words in it ,as far as i know Iranians Likes Turkish people and they treat them like one of own ,this feeling is really different towards Persian golf Arab States . so don't push your luck my dear Turkish friends .



See, still running your mouth.  
Challenge me with your defence technology knowledge...... if you can. 

I dunno why @cabatli_53 is wasting his time with you...there is no one that can challenge him in your section.

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## Korosh kabir

Sinan said:


> See, still running your mouth.
> 
> Challenge me with your defence technology knowledge...... if you can.


 
I don't need to challenge you , you re either a Troll and mentally retarded or getting paid for trolling here , to me you and your other compatriots are nobody ,Iranian don't run their mouth they bring it in action as well , I'm pretty sure no matter how hard I try to put a bit knowledge into your brain ,troll will stay troll , that's a fact.

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## -SINAN-

Korosh kabir said:


> I don't need to challenge you ,


Because you don't have the capacity, simple as that.


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## SOHEIL

Sinan said:


> See, still running your mouth.
> Challenge me with your defence technology knowledge...... if you can.
> 
> I dunno why @cabatli_53 is wasting his time with you...there is no one that can challenge him in your section.










Sinan said:


> Because you don't have the capacity, simple as that.

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## Dalit

haviZsultan said:


> Well done Iran. We want a strong Iran which can support Pakistan. Iran was the first country to accept Pakistan as a nation.



Very well said. Good to see our Iranians brothers advancing in the field of weapons development. I hope our coward government pushes for more trade and energy related projects with Iran.

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## -SINAN-

SOHEIL said:


>



Same applies to you Soheil. You don't know the difference between pitot tube, rf antenna and data link.... but you act like you know stuff. You remember that Taranis (wrong) uav pics ???

But you are good at making CGI stuff and photoshop, i will give you that.

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## Dalit

Bornubus said:


> The countries who are blessed with superior Space technology are by default ....leaders in missile tech....range doesn't matter for them 2500 km or 10000 km.....its true for Iran,India,US,Russia , Israel,china and EU.....other than us.... are thieves and proliferators of tech.....so cheers we are the real papas....



You're just a rapist.

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## TurAr

Korosh kabir said:


> oh let me see.....whomm ......a country that can't even wipe it's own *** in arm technology independently wanna gives Iranians a definition in terms of defense product.
> I see so many Turks here trying to down play Iranian achievements and I don't really get it ,the only things that I can think of is 1- you 're too scared and your fear grows up day by day by Iran's growing power ,witch I don't see any relevant here as long as Turkey mind her own business and tries not to sabotage Iran 2- you're so jealous that you can't be the same in weapon technology term .



Turkey had 2$ billion arms export last year, while in your "independent" wonderland they are still trying to figure out ancient Soviet techs 

I really am jealous of the Iranian fanboys sometimes. I mean, to brag about having a 5th gen stalth fighter over a cardboard mock-up, or to say something like "you are jealous of our weapons technology" while using shopping cart tires on UAVs does indeed require some recklessness. They don't appear to care how mentally retarded they seem to the others as long as Iran is stronk 

@Sinan You shouldn't try to have a constructive and technical discussion with this bunch bro. I've figured that it is impossible long time ago.





At Best Soheil will answer you with his cheesy emotes, at worst you are gonna face with provocations and insults of fanatics and fanboys and eventually you are going to be banned from the thread by their mullah mod for disrupting their circle jerk. So don't bother.

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## SOHEIL

Sinan said:


> Same applies to you Soheil. You don't know the difference between pitot tube, rf antenna and data link.... but you act like you know stuff. You remember that Taranis (wrong) uav pics ???
> 
> But you are good at making CGI stuff and photoshop, i will give you that.



I'm giving you this :





You don't remember I said this is a demonstrator of Taranis !?

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## -SINAN-

SOHEIL said:


> I'm giving you this :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't remember I said this is a demonstrator of Taranis !?



I can remember very well.






you showed this pic and said that it is taranis..., then is said it is raven, not taranis. Then you editted your post. 

Iranian Version of RQ-170 Drone Makes Maiden Flight | Page 13

See, i don't need to resort insults to make my point.

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## SOHEIL

Sinan said:


> pitot tube, rf antenna and data link












Sinan said:


> I can remember very well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you showed this pic and taranis..., then is said it is raven , not taranis. Then you editted your post.
> 
> Iranian Version of RQ-170 Drone Makes Maiden Flight | Page 13
> 
> See, i don't need to resort to insults in order the make my point.



Every person with healthy mind understands !

but you are trying to show ... blah blah blah !

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## Bornubus

قناص said:


> 25 years for reverse engineering Kh-55
> اما خوب برای از بین بردن دشمنان خواهد بود
> 
> Are sure when nirbhey is running on Russian engine,LCA is still not fully operational after 28 years....
> 
> Syrian entire shipment was destroyed on strike on latakia by zioni scums...



Although i didnt wanted to reply that 3rd class post....but are you suggesting that the country who will send a manned space mission and later lunar mission ..... and developed cryo engines cant make a cruise missile engine......BTW do you know what globalization is...

cryo engine









*indian SUVs with our engines*

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## Korosh kabir

TurAr said:


> Turkey had 2$ billion arms export last year, while in your "independent" wonderland they are still trying to figure out ancient Soviet techs
> 
> I really am jealous of the Iranian fanboys sometimes. I mean, to brag about having a 5th gen stalth fighter over a cardboard mock-up, or to say something like "you are jealous of our weapons technology" while using shopping cart tires on UAVs does indeed require some recklessness. They don't appear to care how mentally retarded they seem to the others as long as Iran is stronk
> 
> @Sinan You shouldn't try to have a constructive and technical discussion with this bunch bro. I've figured that it is impossible long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At Best Soheil will answer you with his cheesy emotes, at worst you are gonna face with provocations and insults of fanatics and fanboys and eventually you are going to be banned from the thread by their mullah mod for disrupting their circle jerk. So don't bother.



oh let me see who did you sell your weapons to?.......oh here ......your major arm deals was with cannibals ISIS and FSA with their petro dollar which came from KSA and Qatar and ...., hats off to you superior homemade Mine ,AK47,anti tanks if your master even let you to produce ,please stop brag on what you don't even have it's cardboard mock up to show .

to all typical trolls like your kind, all those achievement from shihab 3 back to like 15-20 years ago has been described as cardboard ,mock up , wood,plastic .....,but what happened next when all those production came in action was very interesting and how people of your kind swallowed every garbage that has been spit out of mouth as words ,or sometimes tried to troll other aspects and capabilities of productions ,so there's nothing new about trolls like your kind ,every body got used to it .beside let these Iranians have their fun with their wooden plastics weapons , why should it make you and your masters even worried at first place? nothing to worried here wooden plastic mock up wont hurt you anyway.

I see you're so obsessed with term of FANBOY or Mullah Fanboy, see you can't even come up with new term to insult your rivals here and frankly I'm no wounder with retarded mind set trolls like yours ,Trolls aren't genius anyway,that's a fact too ,but for your info I'm not a fanboy as you describe I can be even your father , and I'm against political situations in Iran and forced to leave the country ,so definitely I'm against Mullah rulers but I will not leave Iran and it's people alone against trolls like you or your masters ,we might have many differences in ideology but all differences will be put aside and we stand united against any invaders to defend IRAN and we have proved it through out history .

this is my last reply to you and you friends mr troll ,because it's way off topic which is your major intention here and I don't wanna fall for it .

good luck trolling else where

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## masud

i think this missile alrady send a strong msg of those nation who think they can easyly bomb iran with there mighty air force and iran have nothing to retaliation.............

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## Bornubus

Dalit said:


> You're just a rapist.


Who told you that....Your poor Pakistani friend who came here for medical treatment...due to the 3rd class Medical Infrastructure in your country.



on topic: Stop ruining this Iranian Thread with your Gutter Posts.


@Serpentine 

plZ save your thread from derailing


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## Korosh kabir

masud said:


> i think this missile alrady send a strong msg of those nation who think they can easyly bomb iran with there mighty air force and iran have nothing to retaliation.............



that's right Masoud ,this is what I am talking about they shouldn't be worried and come here to troll about it if something is not even that important to them.

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## SOHEIL

Asses on fire !!!

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## TurAr

Korosh kabir said:


> oh let me see who did you sell your weapons to?.......oh here ......your major arm deals was with cannibals ISIS and FSA with their petro dollar which came from KSA and Qatar and ...., hats off to you superior homemade Mine ,AK47,anti tanks if your master even let you to produce ,please stop brag on what you don't even have it's cardboard mock up to show .



Yeah bro, 2$ billion worth of AKs and Mines to ISIS and FSA. 

Then you get upset to be called as a fanatic fanboy  Refusing actual numbers and documents and believing in the regime's stunts 



Korosh kabir said:


> I see you're so obsessed with term of FANBOY or Mullah Fanboy, see you can't even come up with new term to insult your rivals here and frankly I'm no wounder with retarded mind set trolls like yours ,Trolls aren't genius anyway,that's a fact too ,but for your info I'm not a fanboy as you describe I can be even your father , and I'm against political situations in Iran and forced to leave the country ,so definitely I'm against Mullah rulers but I will not leave Iran and it's people alone against trolls like you or your masters ,we might have many differences in ideology but all differences will be put aside and we stand united against any invaders to defend IRAN and we have proved it through out history .



I'm not really obsessed with it nor I use it to offend or insult you, but because it describes the likes of you the best. If I wanted to offend an exiled Iranian with stockholm syndrome such as yourself, I could do it in dozen different way.

So bro, spare me from those empty talks and come with the specs and tangible information rather than ifs and whens.


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## haman10

@Serpentine brother , bastards have once again attacked the thread . clean up please 

leeches should be burned so that they can be removed safely . continue burning their a$$ brothers

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## Daneshmand

haman10 said:


> @Serpentine brother , bastards have once again attacked the thread . clean up please
> 
> leeches should be burned so that they can be removed safely . continue burning their a$$ brothers



Inferiority complex. That is the reason.

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## Shams313

i don't know why turkey brothers make collision with iranians.

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## SOHEIL

Optimus prime said:


> i don't know why turkey brothers make collision with iranians.



Because they hate Iranians more than anything !

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## Shams313

SOHEIL said:


> Because they hate Iranians more than anything !


No way,
Psychopath!!!!

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## Malik Alashter

SOHEIL said:


> Asses on fire !!!


that was funny.
what make it really funny is your angry looking avatar. Loool.



SOHEIL said:


> Because they hate Iranians more than anything !


You mean they hate shea more than any thing else.

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## haman10

Malik Alashter said:


> You mean they hate shea more than any thing else.


Exactly , right on target .

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## cabatli_53

Korosh kabir said:


> oh let me see who did you sell your weapons to?.......oh here ......your major arm deals was with cannibals ISIS and FSA with their petro dollar which came from KSA and Qatar and ...., hats off to you superior homemade Mine ,AK47,anti tanks if your master even let you to produce ,please stop brag on what you don't even have it's cardboard mock up to show .
> 
> to all typical trolls like your kind, all those achievement from shihab 3 back to like 15-20 years ago has been described as cardboard ,mock up , wood,plastic .....,but what happened next when all those production came in action was very interesting and how people of your kind swallowed every garbage that has been spit out of mouth as words ,or sometimes tried to troll other aspects and capabilities of productions ,so there's nothing new about trolls like your kind ,every body got used to it .beside let these Iranians have their fun with their wooden plastics weapons , why should it make you and your masters even worried at first place? nothing to worried here wooden plastic mock up wont hurt you anyway.
> 
> 
> this is my last reply to you and you friends mr troll ,because it's way off topic which is your major intention here and I don't wanna fall for it .
> 
> good luck trolling else where




What are you babbling dude ? With all those loquacity, Do you suppose You will make some sense on subject which is directly related with Turkish defence industry ? What do you know about matters such as exportation of defence tools that You are opening your mouth such big ? If You check previous pages carefully, What some serious Turkish members did, is just to ask some logical questions regarding the main subject of thread and Insulting/Ruining/Calling Mods to clean questions are the reactions They suddenly met instead of receiving some simple answers. If you wanna be taken serious, Try to talk as a serious guy instead of an unmannerly women who is mixing every unlogical/lie/imaginary sh@ts to create verbose to hide behind of sentences.

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## Arminkh

cabatli_53 said:


> What are you babbling dude ? With all those loquacity, Do you suppose You will make some sense on subject which is directly related with Turkish defence industry ? What do you know about matters such as exportation of defence tools that You are opening your mouth such big ? If You check previous pages carefully, What some serious Turkish members did, is just to ask some logical questions regarding the main subject of thread and Insulting/Ruining/Calling Mods to clean questions are the reactions They suddenly met instead of receiving some simple answers. If you wanna be taken serious, Try to talk as a serious guy instead of an unmannerly women who is mixing every unlogical/lie/imaginary sh@ts to create verbose to hide behind of long sentences.



Honestly, I think everyone has better things to do with his time than reading the likes of comments in the last few pages.

Some of your countrymen have been polite and only asked questions while some of them have other agendas. if you review the last three pages, you can see that members from other countries have sensed it too. Just read Oublious reply to rmi5 comment on page 31 to get an idea.

I have never seen this type of argument happen between us and (for example) Indians or Chinese while they have a lot more to be proud of and brag about. Fixed party to these kinds of arguments are either Turks or Israelis which tells me, as an observer, that there is something wrong here.

So getting back to your comments, if you don't take us seriously or you think all of the news on this part of the forum are propaganda then instead of trying to teach us manners and argue with us, just stop visiting this section. Or visit it and spare us your comments. It is that simple!

Thank you,

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## -SINAN-

Optimus prime said:


> i don't know why turkey brothers make collision with iranians.


We don't....we see some ridiculous claims from their commanders....like super sonic stealth drones with the range of thousands of miles , or a jet fighter that can shoot it's enemy from 300 kms away... so, we ask for details but the standard Iranian approach is to insult....so, ...

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## Shams313

Sinan said:


> We don't....we see some ridiculous claims from their commanders....like super sonic stealth drones with a range thousands of miles , or a jet that can shoot it's enemy from 300 kms away... so, we ask for details but the standard Iranian approach is to insult....so, ...


If their claims seem to u as ridiculous,then i suggest u all ,let them be alone.bt don,t insult one another any more.u r neighbors,aren't u?
And i left a massage for u both,oil in ur own machine.

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## Korosh kabir

@Optimus prime 

we 're facing bunch of retards here from a specific country that asking details about secret weapons and latest technologies that Iran has been achieved ,stuffs that many countries pays top dollar to acquire them, seriously what they think of Iranians here ? some bunch of fools to give up such details on these weapons ? anyway who cares what they say , as I said in other page all these indicate only one thing :their growing fear and they can't do whatever they want .

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## behnam

many of the weapon claims are true,but goverment doesnt put money on it ,and they just stay on mock up level...


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## SOHEIL

behnam said:


> many of the weapon claims are true,but goverment doesnt put money on it ,and they just stay on mock up level...



For example !?


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## behnam

one of them was shafagh fighter.

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## SOHEIL

behnam said:


> one of them was shafagh fighter.



Shafaq abandoned because of russians !

We don't have engine problems anymore ...

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## cabatli_53

Sinan said:


> We don't....we see some ridiculous claims from their commanders....like super sonic stealth drones with the range of thousands of miles , or a jet fighter that can shoot it's enemy from 300 kms away... so, we ask for details but the standard *Iranian approach is to insult*....so, ...



Additions, Deleted logical comments which is typed as a response to a member during conversation, may also be considered inside of What I met in here.



behnam said:


> many of the weapon claims are true,but goverment doesnt put money on it ,and they just stay on mock up level...




Can you open up more about it ?

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## Arminkh

cabatli_53 said:


> Additions, Deleted logical comments which is typed as a response to a member during conversation, may also be considered inside of What I met in here.



Do you see these types of comments from your countrymen too?



Sinan said:


> *On topic, i have confidence that one day, Iranian friends will make the Millennium Falcon and we will travel to stars*.



Now, I can't say that I'm familiar with Turkish culture but in either Iranian or Canadian culture the above comment doesn't exactly fit within "complements" or "logical questions" category. Does it in your culture?

We all know what some of you are doing. So please drop that self righteous gesture. (And I don't mean you in particular. I mean Turks)

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## Militant Atheist

I'm more interested in the semi-heavy submarine they said they unveiled? Anyone has any info?

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## Penguin

Militant Atheist said:


> I'm more interested in the semi-heavy submarine they said they unveiled? Anyone has any info?


what is a semi-heavy submarine?

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## cabatli_53

Korosh kabir said:


> @Optimus prime
> 
> *we 're facing bunch of retards here from a specific country that asking details about secret weapons and latest technologies that Iran has been achieved* ,stuffs that many countries pays top dollar to acquire them, seriously what they think of Iranians here ? some bunch of fools to give up such details on these weapons ? anyway who cares what they say , as I said in other page all these indicate only one thing :their growing fear and they can't do whatever they want .




*Latest technology*? Which latest technology? Soviets had designed them at a time When colour cameraes have not been invented yet. If I dare to learn details about your *"secret weapons"*, I simply type the name of originals Iran produces and Wiki simply lists more or less Whatever I need. What the members ask is about Iranian participation/portion on those Soviet designed missile dude. For example Which semi conductors you have used on RF? What about datalink ? How you are going to feed TERCOM or DSMAC guidance you mention? What's the generation of IR seeker If available on missiles? Which detector technology You have applied ? Those are not space science technologies World countries are secretly achieving. If you claim They are "latest generation" missile system, It means The missiles Iran shows, is able to perform better than anything World has. This time, You should tell us What makes them differ from original designs you claimed as "copy" ? and What Iran puts on them to make latest generation missiles compared to others ? Otherwise, What you are telling with long sentences, will just be considered as loquacity. Let's tell us Who is *"bunch of fools", "bunch of retards"* ?

BTW, It is the first time I have seen a detail about Iranian thermals used on tanks. In brochure, I learned that It is being used 2nd generation thermal system. If "the latest technology" you mention are like those periscopes, I remind that World passed 3rd generation thermal systems years ago.

Regards...

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## Militant Atheist

Penguin said:


> what is a semi-heavy submarine?


Besat-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## behnam

cabatli_53 said:


> Can you open up more about it ?


iran military budget is very low..specially army.. paying the salary is all army can do...(and salaries are very low.)
iran has lowest military budget infront of other persian gulf states.

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## -SINAN-

Arminkh said:


> Now, I can't say that I'm familiar with Turkish culture but in either Iranian or Canadian culture the above comment doesn't exactly fit within "complements" or "logical questions" category. Does it in your culture?
> 
> We all know what some of you are doing. So please drop that self righteous gesture. (And I don't mean you in particular. I mean Turks)


Mate, see my first post in this thread.


Sinan said:


> Drones that can fly thousands of miles in supersonic speed..while evading incoming missiles it can shoot enemy aircrafts.... awesome.... One step close to the "Millenium Falcon".



Are we going to talk technically on this subject ?? Your IIRGC commanders talk about fantasy and i complemented it....what are you getting edgy for ?


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## SOHEIL




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## Arminkh

Sinan said:


> Mate, see my first post in this thread.
> 
> 
> Are we going to talk technically on this subject ?? Your IIRGC commanders talk about fantasy and i complemented it....what are you getting edgy for ?


Oh so that's the meaning of complement in Turkish culture? Those comments are more like your own fantasies than that of Iranian commanders. 

Anyway, saw you crying wolf and thought I should remind your countrymen and other readers of your famous quote.

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## -SINAN-

Arminkh said:


> Oh so that's the meaning of complement in Turkish culture?


Nope, i didn't made a compliment...i was being sarcastic.


Arminkh said:


> hose comments are more like your own fantasies than that of Iranian commanders.


Here is the original words of the IRGC general...


> Iran’s drones will now be equipped with high precision smart missiles travelling at *supersonic speed*, Fars news agency reported today.
> 
> “*The new drones are capable of destroying different types of aircraft that include fighter jets, drones and helicopters,*” Deputy Defense Minister Brigadier General Amir Hatami was quoted as saying by Fars.
> 
> “*Teharan’s new indigenous drones can fly thousands of kilometers and are equipped with precision smart missiles that can capture images and transmit them directly or indirectly to on-ground stations,”* Lieutenant Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Brigadier General Hossein Salami said.
> 
> Iran has also developed *a missile-evading drone* called ‘Sarallah’ that escapes *thermal and air-to-air missile power *in January 2015. It had unveiled a new drone named Sadeq 1* which can fly at supersonic speeds* last September.
> 
> Iran Unveils Drones With ‘Smart Missiles’



Sweet ain't it. 



Arminkh said:


> Anyway, saw you crying wolf and thought I should remind your countrymen and other readers of your famous quote.


Suit yourself.


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## rmi5

@Serpentine Cleaning is needed again ...

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## Arminkh

Sinan said:


> Nope, i didn't made a compliment...i was being sarcastic.
> 
> Here is the original words of the IRGC general...
> 
> 
> Sweet ain't it.
> 
> 
> Suit yourself.


Well body, I seriously don't know what to tell you. You have misunderstood the whole news. Anyway this thread is about Sumar not Drones. If you like to continue this debate take it to the right thread.

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## The Last of us

It's always these same retards that waste thread space with their useless trash comments. They don't even have the IQ required to have a meaningful discussion with them. @Arminkh Don't waste your time with these brainwashed bafoons.

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## Draco.IMF

*I blame those who feed the Trolls, no one else...*

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## SOHEIL

Troll >>>



: hey ... you are not done !?

^^^

*This is what happening to Iranian threads !!!*

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## The Last of us

Draco.IMF said:


> *I blame those who feed the Trolls, no one else...*



@Arminkh is just trying to educate these brainwashed Turks. They're full of inferiority complex and can't resist coming to this sections and vomiting in the thread with their useless nonsense.
They lack the intellect for us to have a meaningful discussion with them. They're too brainwashed with Erdogan propaganda.

They do not come to this sections to be educated, they come here to alleviate their butt burns.
They reduce the quality of this section just by being here.
It's embarrassing for them because no Iranian even visits their section
As long as the mods let them continue, they will.

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## ResurgentIran

The Last of us said:


> @Arminkh is just trying to educate these brainwashed Turks. They're full of inferiority complex and can't resist coming to this sections and vomiting in the thread with their useless nonsense.
> They lack the intellect for us to have a meaningful discussion with them. They're too brainwashed with Erdogan propaganda.
> 
> They do not come to this sections to be educated, they come here to alleviate their butt burns.
> They reduce the quality of this section just by being here.
> It's embarrassing for them because no Iranian even visits their section
> As long as the mods let them continue, they will.



To be honest with you, I dont believe the Turkish members like @Sinan et al are fans of Erdogan.
I do, however, think they have become exact replicas of the mindless bimbos of the Adnan Oktar talking show.

Dumb and brainless as a roost, and just waiting for all the boys to come and f.uck them.
Just warn them that unless they behave, there will be not be any penetration for them. Then you will quickly see them behave and take their rightful place. Incallah Macallah lol

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## The Last of us

ResurgentIran said:


> To be honest with you, I dont believe the Turkish members like @Sinan et al are fans of Erdogan.
> I do, however, think they have become exact replicas of the mindless bimbos of the Adnan Oktar talking show.
> 
> Dumb and brainless as a roost, and just waiting for all the boys to come and f.uck them.
> Just warn them that unless they behave, there will be not be any penetration for them. Then you will quickly see them behave and take their rightful place. Incallah Macallah lol



Bro, it lowers our quality to even talk about these people. It does not matter if they support Erodogan, they are still victims of his propaganda. Iranians could not care any less with these people and never visit their section but they're obsessed with us. I suppose we can't blame them for having inferiority complex but the mods should not allow them to continue plaguing this section with their useless presence, The problems is, they lack even the slightest intellect for us to have a discussion with them.

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## Penguin

Militant Atheist said:


> Besat-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


1,200 tons. Which is about the size fo the smallest Type 209.

Above post as so seriously off topic that I'm pondering what to do about them.


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## kollang

Draco.IMF said:


> *I blame those who feed the Trolls, no one else...*


Very well said!

I have told my fellow friends not to engage them at any case.it will only make them feel importance thus they will bark more in our section.

The only way to counter these erdogan whores is to ignore them.from now on I wont even take a look at their chill thread which is actually a place to spread hatred and I wont engage them in any debate .if anyone of them has a mathematic question, I am here to answer.I ask the same from other Iranian fellows.

We dont need to wait for @Serpentine to take action against them.we can do it ourselves.

@The Last of us @ResurgentIran @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @SOHEIL @rmi5

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## ResurgentIran

kollang said:


> Very well said!
> 
> I have told my fellow friends not to engage them at any case.it will only make them feel importance thus they will bark more in our section.
> 
> The only way to counter these erdogan whores is to ignore them.from now on I wont even take a look at their chill thread which is actually a place to spread hatred and I wont engage them in any debate .if anyone of them has a mathematic question, I am here to answer.I ask the same from other Iranian fellows.
> 
> We dont need to wait for @Serpentine to take action against them.we can do it ourselves.
> 
> @The Last of us @ResurgentIran @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @SOHEIL @rmi5



I will respect your wish and try to ignore them the best I can, and not engage them.
What you and The Last of Us said is very sound and rational advice.

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## -SINAN-

Actually, you are trolling in your own thread by quoeting me with off-topic posts...if you want to go off-topic you can always use our/your chill thread for that..not to mention it is always the Iranian members who does the swearing part.

@ResurgentIran 

Those are nothing bro, check this one....particularly check the kitten in red


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## kollang

ResurgentIran said:


> I will respect your wish and try to ignore them the best I can, and not engage them.
> What you and The Last of Us said is very sound and rational advice.


Thanks dada.just dont say a damn thing to them and let them bark as much as they can.they will eventually get bored and this place will become a troll free section.

And dont be afraid to share your opinion regarding their state.bring up facts and they will only reply with personal attacks and off-topic stuffs about Iran.however at the end outsiders will pick up the right words

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## Shams313

Sinan said:


> Those are nothing bro, check this one....particularly check the kitten in red


Holy chicks!!!!



Penguin said:


> 1,200 tons. Which is about the size fo the smallest Type 209.
> 
> Above post as so seriously off topic that I'm pondering what to do about them.


Besat may be more than 1200 ton,around 1400~1500 ton.I hope so,
that semi heavy sub will be fitted with cruise missile like sumar,qaher.
Iranian navy need such kind of ship for potential strike capability.

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## Daneshmand

ResurgentIran said:


> To be honest with you, I dont believe the Turkish members like @Sinan et al are fans of Erdogan.
> I do, however, think they have become exact replicas of the mindless bimbos of the Adnan Oktar talking show.
> 
> Dumb and brainless as a roost, and just waiting for all the boys to come and f.uck them.
> Just warn them that unless they behave, there will be not be any penetration for them. Then you will quickly see them behave and take their rightful place. Incallah Macallah lol



Adnan Otkar was kicked out of Iran for trying to spread Christian similar creationism ideas among school children. The guy is a buffoon.



kollang said:


> Very well said!
> 
> I have told my fellow friends not to engage them at any case.it will only make them feel importance thus they will bark more in our section.
> 
> The only way to counter these erdogan whores is to ignore them.from now on I wont even take a look at their chill thread which is actually a place to spread hatred and I wont engage them in any debate .if anyone of them has a mathematic question, I am here to answer.I ask the same from other Iranian fellows.
> 
> We dont need to wait for @Serpentine to take action against them.we can do it ourselves.
> 
> @The Last of us @ResurgentIran @Arminkh @Daneshmand @rahi2357 @SOHEIL @rmi5



Aye Aye sir. Loud and clear. RTB.

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## TurAr

Korosh kabir said:


> we 're facing bunch of retards here





Korosh kabir said:


> some bunch of fools





The Last of us said:


> useless trash comments.





The Last of us said:


> They don't even have the IQ required to have a meaningful discussion with them.





The Last of us said:


> brainwashed bafoons.





The Last of us said:


> brainwashed Turks.





The Last of us said:


> full of inferiority complex





The Last of us said:


> lack the intellect





The Last of us said:


> too brainwashed with Erdogan propaganda.





The Last of us said:


> butt burns.





ResurgentIran said:


> mindless bimbos





ResurgentIran said:


> waiting for all the boys to come and f.uck them.



@Serpentine Can you clean the parts of the thread and issue necessary infractions where the fanboys comfort each other by attacking Turks and Turkey, so that maybe we can get some answers to the questions of cabatli, which I'm sure we all wonder:



cabatli_53 said:


> *Latest technology*? Which latest technology? Soviets had designed them at a time When colour cameraes have not been invented yet. If I dare to learn details about your *"secret weapons"*, I simply type the name of originals Iran produces and Wiki simply lists more or less Whatever I need. What the members ask is about Iranian participation/portion on those Soviet designed missile dude. For example Which semi conductors you have used on RF? What about datalink ? How you are going to feed TERCOM or DSMAC guidance you mention? What's the generation of IR seeker If available on missiles? Which detector technology You have applied ? Those are not space science technologies World countries are secretly achieving. If you claim They are "latest generation" missile system, It means The missiles Iran shows, is able to perform better than anything World has. This time, You should tell us What makes them differ from original designs you claimed as "copy" ? and What Iran puts on them to make latest generation missiles compared to others ? Otherwise, What you are telling with long sentences, will just be considered as loquacity. Let's tell us Who is *"bunch of fools", "bunch of retards"* ?
> 
> BTW, It is the first time I have seen a detail about Iranian thermals used on tanks. In brochure, I learned that It is being used 2nd generation thermal system. If "the latest technology" you mention are like those periscopes, I remind that World passed 3rd generation thermal systems years ago.
> 
> Regards...

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## Penguin

Optimus prime said:


> Holy chicks!!!!
> 
> 
> Besat may be more than 1200 ton,around 1400~1500 ton.I hope so,
> that semi heavy sub will be fitted with cruise missile like sumar,qaher.
> Iranian navy need such kind of ship for potential strike capability.


How many Type 209s (of whatever subtype) do you know that a) fire missiles and b) fire missiles like Sumar. Incidentally, if Sumar (diameter 51.4 cm) has a fixed external engine protruding below, how would it fit in a 533mm or even a 650mm torpedo tube for encapsulated launch....? Oh wait, it won't!

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## SOHEIL

Penguin said:


> How many Type 209s (of whatever subtype) do you know that a) fire missiles and b) fire missiles like Sumar. Incidentally, if Sumar (diameter 51.4 cm) has a fixed external engine protruding below, how would it fit in a 533mm or even a 650mm torpedo tube for encapsulated launch....? Oh wait, it won't!



We have other goodies :

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## Arminkh

Draco.IMF said:


> *I blame those who feed the Trolls, no one else...*


If you are talking about me, I usually don't answer. But what I can't stand is someone trolling and playing victim here.

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## kollang

Arminkh said:


> If you are talking about me, I usually don't answer. But what I can't stand is someone trolling and playing victim here.


Join us in maintaining an ignoring policy against the Turkish trolls.

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## Penguin

SOHEIL said:


> We have other goodies :


Maybe. But how many of those would have a 2500km range?



Korosh kabir said:


> @Optimus prime
> 
> we 're facing bunch of retards here from a specific country that asking details about secret weapons and latest technologies that Iran has been achieved ,stuffs that many countries pays top dollar to acquire them, seriously what they think of Iranians here ? some bunch of fools to give up such details on these weapons ? anyway who cares what they say , as I said in other page all these indicate only one thing :their growing fear and they can't do whatever they want .


Well, lets be honest, those details are nothing different from what you would see in discussions of weapons developments in e.g. profesional mlitary journals. If they can do it, why not here?


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## TOPGUN

Congrats Iran , make sure to give them hell

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## tesla

well done iran

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## The Last of us

tesla said:


> well done iran



Thanks bro

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## Militant Atheist

Penguin said:


> 1,200 tons. Which is about the size fo the smallest Type 209.
> 
> Above post as so seriously off topic that I'm pondering what to do about them.



Yeah. I was kinda interested in that.

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## SOHEIL

*Soumar :*







.
.
.



> *Р95-300*
> 
> Разработчик: АМНТК «Союз»
> 
> Изготовитель: «Мотор Сич»
> 
> Год освоения: 1982
> 
> Применение: Х-55, Х-35, Х-59М
> 
> малоразмерные одновальные ТРДД тягой 300-380 кгс



*R95-300*

Developer: AESTC "Union"

The manufacturer: "Motor Sich"

Year of development: 1982

Application: X-55, X-35, X-59M

small-sized single-shaft *turbofan* thrust of 300-380 kg

Турбореактивные двигатели для БПЛА / Взлёт 2006 04

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## yavar

*The Real Iran Threat (Hint: It's Not Nukes)*


Why is the national debate now swirling around a prospective nuclear deal with Iran entirely missing a key point? Because it is all but ignoring a huge proverbial elephant that is not in the room but should be: Iran’s nuclear missile programs. These are part and parcel of what makes the Islamic Republic’s growing nuclear weapons infrastructure so menacing. Ignoring Iranian missiles is nothing less than an original sin of omission in the Obama administration approach to trying to curb Iran’s nuclear ambitions by negotiating a comprehensive grand bargain. Far from being a peripheral problem, this lapse represents a fundamental flaw that is likely to bedevil the viability of any agreement that emerges from these negotiations.

To be sure, many other important issues regarding the so-called P5+1 (Britain, China, France, Russia, United States plus Germany) talks with Iran are now coming to the fore of public awareness. In spite of the all too predictable media fixation on a pair of recent partisan brouhahas that have flared up between the Obama administration and congressional Republicans—the invitation to Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu to address Congress on the Iran talks, and then the open letter to Iran from forty-seven Republican senators stressing the constitutional limits of any agreement that is not approved by Congress—the national press deserves credit for also focusing on the actual substance of the deal that is starting to come into focus. Recent coverage has explored many arcane and interrelated issues at an impressive level of sophistication. These include the agreement’s legal status, duration, and durability, the scope of its restrictions such as the number of centrifuges allowed and disposition of existing stocks of nuclear fuel, and even highly technical aspects of the Iranian weapons program that are not covered such as neutron initiators, and fusing, arming and firing systems. For his part President Obama himself has gone out of his way to stress the importance of verification as a critical element in any agreement, although it is unclear how intrusive a process the President deems necessary or what verification mechanisms Iran may be willing to tolerate. These are all important factors that taken together will rightly shape judgments about any deal that is reached. In all of this debate and analysis, however, there is scant notice that Iran’s nuclear missile programs do not seem to be anywhere in the mix.


The Real Iran Threat (Hint: It's Not Nukes) | The National Interest

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## B+ Dracula

Congratulations to IRAN...


Optimus prime said:


> i don't know why turkey brothers make collision with iranians.


its called *LOVE*....my friend

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS

*U.S. eyes Iran missile threats, boosts testing tempo*

By Andrea Shalal
WASHINGTON, March 18 (Reuters) - The U.S. Missile Defense Agency, citing growing missile threats from North Korea and Iran, said on Wednesday the United States was carrying out increasingly realistic tests of its missile defenses while also beefing up cybersecurity.

MDA Director Navy Vice Admiral James Syring said North Korea has fielded hundreds of missiles that could reach U.S. forces based in South Korea and Japan, while Iran was stepping up work on more sophisticated missiles.

Both countries could achieve the ability to launch an intercontinental ballistic missile as early as this year, he told a hearing of the defense subcommittee for the Senate Appropriations Committee.

Syring said the agency was carrying out more war games and exercises to prepare for possible attacks, while increasing the tempo and complexity of its testing, reducing costs and investing in new technologies.


U.S. eyes Iran, N.Korea missile threats, boosts testing tempo | Daily Mail Online


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## SOHEIL



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## yavar

FOR FOOLS

*Iran to Test Intercontinental Ballistic Missile in 2015 - US Defense Agency*






*The US Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) has assessed that Iran will be capable of testing an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) this year, US Missile Defense Agency Director James Syring said.

WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — The US ground-based interceptors based in Fort Greely, Alaska and Vandenberg Air Force Base in California are sufficient to protect the United States homeland against “the future Iranian ICBM threat should it emerge,” Syring stated.

“The DIA’s assessment is that Iran is capable of flight-testing an ICBM in 2015,” Syring told members of the US Senate Armed Services Committee on Wednesday.
“There’s not a likelihood expressed with that assessment,” Syring said, adding that the DIA will further evaluate the likelihood of an Iranian flight test in an assessment it will conduct later in 2015.

The United States has 30 ground-based interceptors deployed on its West Coast, and will be adding an additional 14 by 2017.

The United States also has 33 Aegis warships with mobile ballistic missile defense capabilities, and will upgrade to 35 ships by the end of 2016, according to the Missile Defense Agency.*

Iran to Test Intercontinental Ballistic Missile in 2015 - US Defense Agency / Sputnik International

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## Minute by Minute

I guess the joke is on the "photoshop" crowd!

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## yavar

*FOR FOOLS *

*US test-fires intercontinental missile in California (VIDEO)*
Published time: March 23, 2015 21:18







US test-fires intercontinental missile in California (VIDEO) — RT USA

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## -------

SOHEIL said:


> *Soumar :*
> 
> View attachment 204613
> 
> 
> .
> .
> .
> 
> 
> 
> *R95-300*
> 
> Developer: AESTC "Union"
> 
> The manufacturer: "Motor Sich"
> 
> Year of development: 1982
> 
> Application: X-55, X-35, X-59M
> 
> small-sized single-shaft *turbofan* thrust of 300-380 kg
> 
> Турбореактивные двигатели для БПЛА / Взлёт 2006 04




Iran instead of reverse engineering, why don't you fund Turkey with an agreement of full TOT.

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## SOHEIL

Combat-Master said:


> Iran instead of reverse engineering, why don't you fund Turkey with an agreement of full TOT.

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## Shams313

Soheil,can u update the the page contains iranian missile list in wikipedia (list of missile by countries/iran) .there is a lot of missile remains absent.

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## -------

Minute by Minute said:


> The only help we should be giving Turkey is to help desintegrate it as a nation. Let their monkeys go to the West and their muslims join us!



 Woah mayn, what's up the ill intentions.


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## SOHEIL

Combat-Master said:


> Woah mayn, what's up the ill intentions.

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## Draco.IMF

So what this missile test prove?

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> So what this missile test prove?



what do you think ?? they sending message that they have capabilities



yavar said:


> *U.S. eyes Iran missile threats, boosts testing *


----------



## Draco.IMF

Do you think year 2015 is a realistic date that Iran will show first tests of its ICBM´s?
Is Iran not afraid, as you once told, of heavier international sanctions, including China/Russia, by doing so?

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## Oldman1

Draco.IMF said:


> So what this missile test prove?



It proves we caught up to the Iranians in missile technology.


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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> Do you think year 2015 is a realistic date that Iran will show first tests of its ICBM´s?


No there will be no date . so far i do not think iran will publish anything
.we already have answered U.S ICBM test which neither Iran or U.S mation it . but the U.S has received the message
the U.S is wear of it and got the message



Draco.IMF said:


> Is Iran not afraid, as you once told, of heavier international sanctions, including China/Russia, by doing so?


of course . just look at Yemen and see how many countries has joined in it . U.S+ Israeli planes +Turkey + Pakistan pilots and ground forces and MLRS force so far +Egypt naval forces and grand forces and planes ++++++
how many countries in world you think it will see Iran as threat and join anti Iran economic cooperation .
we have only shown obsolete Shahab 3 missile with range of 2000 KM and have look for yourself every body with in 2000 KM Iran has joined anti Iran economic operation .
think when we show something with long range what would europe will do + rest of countries in world

3rd : what do you think united nation security council will do including Russia and China ?? you think they going to give us gift and box of chocolate ??

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## SOHEIL

​@Surenas

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## agarrao a las kalandrakas

yavar said:


> No there will be no date . so far i do not think iran will publish anything
> .we already have answered U.S ICBM test which neither Iran or U.S mation it . but the U.S has received the message
> the U.S is wear of it and got the message
> 
> 
> of course . just look at Yemen and see how many countries has joined in it . U.S+ Israeli planes +Turkey + Pakistan pilots and ground forces and MLRS force so far +Egypt naval forces and grand forces and planes ++++++
> how many countries in world you think it will see Iran as threat and join anti Iran economic cooperation .
> we have only shown obsolete Shahab 3 missile with range of 2000 KM and have look for yourself every body with in 2000 KM Iran has joined anti Iran economic operation .
> think when we show something with long range what would europe will do + rest of countries in world
> 
> 3rd : what do you think united nation security council will do including Russia and China ?? you think they going to give us gift and box of chocolate ??




Brother, finally I've created an account here, in this forum. We miss you a lot in the other forum (IMF).

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## SOHEIL

agarrao a las kalandrakas said:


> Brother, finally I've created an account here, in this forum. We miss you a lot in the other forum (IMF).

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## Dominance

* 'Iran is placing guided warheads on Hezbollah rockets'
*
By YAAKOV LAPPIN 

03/31/2015 15:41

* Col. Aviram Hasson, of the Defense Ministry's missile defense administration says Hezbollah gets a lot of accurate weapons from Iran. *

Iran is placing guided warheads on its rockets and smuggling them to Hezbollah in Lebanon, a senior Defense Ministry official said Tuesday.

Speaking at the Israel Air and Missile Defense Conference in Herzliya, Col. Aviram Hasson, who is involved in preparing IDF air defenses, said Iran was converting Zilzal unguided rockets into accurate, guided M-600 projectiles by upgrading their warheads.

Hasson, who is in charge of upper-tier missile defenses at HOMA – part of the Defense Ministry’s Administration for the Development of Weapons and Technological Infrastructure – described Iran as a “train engine that is not stopping for a moment. It is manufacturing new and advanced ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. It is turning unguided rockets that had an accuracy range of kilometers into weapons that are accurate to within meters.”

Hezbollah, he continued, “is getting a lot of accurate weapons from Iran. It is in a very different place compared to the Second Lebanon War in 2006.”

For Israel, the “ultimate defense is a combination of counter-attack, active defenses, and passive defense [civilian compliance with Home Front Command safety instructions],” he argued.

Riki Ellison, founder and chairman of the US Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance, also spoke at the conference, which was organized by the iHLS defense website and the Israel Missile Defense Association.

The alliance is a nonprofit organization advocating for the deployment and development of missile defenses.

Ellison said the US always kept at least one warship in the Mediterranean with an Aegis naval missile defense system to ensure that Israel was protected against long-range Iranian ballistic missiles.

“It can stand off the coast and shoot long-shots coming in from Iran,” he said.

The US is keen to see Israel complete its multi-layered blanket of missile defenses, which would enable it to defend against Iranian missiles without the Aegis and thereby free up the US Navy’s ships for deployment elsewhere, he added.

Ellison told the delegates that the US remained firmly committed to Israel’s security, irrespective of recent disagreements between President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

He added that the US could deploy its Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) batteries “if necessary, to come into Israel to support your country’s defense.”

America is “fully supportive” of Israel getting fully capable Arrow 3 and David’s Sling defense systems, Ellison said.

'Iran is placing guided warheads on Hezbollah rockets' - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

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## Arminkh

Yeah! I specifically like this part



Dominance said:


> Hasson, who is in charge of upper-tier missile defenses at HOMA – part of the Defense Ministry’s Administration for the Development of Weapons and Technological Infrastructure – described Iran as a “*train engine that is not stopping for a moment*. It is manufacturing new and advanced ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. It is turning unguided rockets that had an accuracy range of kilometers into weapons that are accurate to within meters.”

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## yavar

وزیر دفاع آمریکا دچار آلزایمر شده است/ ایران آماده مقابله با هرگونه تهدید خصمانه است



واکنش سردار دهقان به اظهارات اشتون کارتر: وزیر دفاع آمریکا دچار آلزایمر شده است/ ایران آماده مقابله با هرگونه تهدید خصمانه است

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## Draco.IMF

Ok, so USA tested shortly the most powerful bunker blaster bomb ever, this was a clear sign to Iran.
Will there be any strong response to them?

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS 


خانواده‌های اقتدار ـــ ۲۴/ شهید مهدی نواب به‌روایت همسر ــ بخش دوم
* آقامهدی می‌گفت، آمریکا و اسرائیل را از «همین‌جا» می‌توانیم بزنیم *
*خبرگزاری تسنیم: همسر شهید نواب می‌گوید: مهدی همیشه می‌گفت زمان‌هایی که تست ما در پادگان مدرس موفق می‌شود بیدگنه می‌فهمد، دیگر صداها را می‌شناسند؛ از دهات‌های بیدگنه صدای الله اکبر می‌آمد. می‌گفت این الله اکبرها دل ما را می‌لرزاند. *

رگزاری تسنیم: توپخانه سپاه در سال‌های هشت سال جنگ تحمیلی آغاز دوستی پایان ناپذیر «شهید مهدی نواب»، «شهید محمد سلگی» و «شهید حسن طهرانی مقدم» بود. سه دوستی که از سال‌های جنگ همکاری خود را در کرمانشاه و بعدتر در عرصه توپخانه شروع کردند و بعد با موفقیت‌های فراوان در عرصه موشکی تا شهادت همکاری خود را ادامه دادند. وقتی دست تقدیر مهدی نواب و محمد سلگی را به یک خانه و ازدواج با دو خواهر کشاند، خانواده سیف(همسران این شهدا) هم در نقش آفرینی‌ شجاعانه و زندگی پر خطر این شهیدان شریک شدند. سلگی و نواب، دو دوست قدیمی حالا «باجناق» شده بودند، رفاقت تنگاتنگ خود را در خانه و محل کار ادامه دادند.
«شهید مهدی نواب» در پانزدهم شهریور سال 1346 در محله سرچشمه تهران متولد شد. در سنین نوجوانی به جبهه رفت و در سال 65 وارد سپاه پاسداران شد. زندگی شغلی او سرشار از فراز و نشیب های یک کار جهادی و طاقت فرسا بود. او سال‌ها در پادگان شهید مدرس و در جهاد خودکفایی در کنار دیگر همکارانش به تحقیقات موشکی مشغول بود و در نهایت در 21 آبان 90 با انفجاری که در این پادگان صورت گرفت نامش در کنار 38 نفر دیگر در زمره شهدای اقتدار جای گرفت.

«آزاده سیف» همسر شهید مهدی نواب متولد 1354 است. کسی که سال‌ها زندگی مشترک در کنار مهدی نواب بهترین روزهای زندگی را برایش رقم زد. اگرچه نقش عشق و دلدادگی در زندگی شهید مهدی نواب و همسرش از دهه 70 آغاز شد اما همسر شهید نواب خیلی خوب و با جزئیات تمام تخصص‌های همسرش را در دوران جنگ و قبل آن نیز به خوبی می‌شناسد. آزاده سیف امروز روایتگر روزهای حماسی مهدی نواب است. او معتقد است رنگ گمنامی تا روز شهادت و حتی بعد از شهادت هم از نام، حرفه و تخصص این شهدا زدوده نشد. بخشی از این گمنامی به خاطر حساسیت‌های کاری‌ خواست همین شهدا بود و بخشی دیگر را نتیجه غفلت رسانه در معرفی درست این شهدا می‌داند. شهدایی که همه سال‌های عمر، سلامتی و جانشان را برای حفظ اقتدار کشور اسلامی گذاشتند تا روزی صدای موفقیت‌شان تن ابر قدرت‌های زورگوی جهان را بلرزاند. همانطور که به قول آزاده سیف خود شهید نواب می‌گفت: «دلمان خوش است که اگر سلامتی و جان‌مان را می‌دهیم، می‌دانیم که در کنارش شیعه دارد قدرتمند می‌شود. از اینجا آمریکا و اسرائیل را می‌زنیم.»

آزاده سیف در گفت‌وگویی صمیمانه با خبرنگاران تسنیم از خاطرات و مقاطع مختلف زندگی شهید نواب، فعالیت‌هایش در بسیج و سپاه و دوران رزمندگی در هشت سال دفاع مقدس می‌گوید. بخش اول این گفتگو را در *اینجا* می‌توانید بخوانید.

بخش دوم گفت‌وگو در ادامه می‌آید:

** تسنیم: مسئولیت شهید نواب در پادگان شهید مدرس چه بود؟*

شهید مهدی نواب به نوعی مشاور و مسئول آزمایشگاه پژوهشکده و تست سوخت، مسئول سمعی بصری جهاد خودکفایی و مسئول کوهنوردی بود.

می‌گفتند مهدی نواب «آخر حلال خوری» است/با 20 نوع دوربین حرفه‌ای و فوق حرفه‌ای کار می‌کرد

** تسنیم: چطور شد که مسئولیت سمعی بصری را هم بر عهده گرفت؟*

کم کم شهید نواب به خاطر اینکه کارشان حساس بود و به فیلمبرداری احتیاج داشت به یک فیلمبردار حرفه‌ای تبدیل شد که با 20 نوع دوربین حرفه‌ای و فوق حرفه‌ای کار می‌کرد. دفتر سمعی و بصری را نیز همینطور افتتاح کرد و اینگونه مسئول دفتر سمعی و بصری جهاد خودکفایی شد. شهید نواب برای آموزش یک دوربین فوق حرفه‌ای باید درس می‌خواند ولی باهوش و استعداد بود و با پشتکاری که داشت به یک فیلمبردار حرفه‌ای تبدیل شد. فیلم‌های ایشان به قدری با کیفیت بود که در مانورها صداو سیما فیلم‌های او را برای پخش می‌گرفت. چون کار ایشان موشکی بود در زمان فیلمبرداری هیچگونه ترسی نداشت و با کیفیت تصویر می‌گرفت.

یک کتاب چاپ شده است برای شهدای اقتدار موشکی که بخش‌هایی از آن ضد و نقیض است و در مواردی اطلاعات نادقیق دارد. من گاهی شب‌ها از مظلومیت این دو شهید گریه می‌کنم. بچه‌ها و همکاران شهید به من می‌گویند باید در کتاب‌ها صفحه مخصوص این دو شهید را خالی بگذارند تا مردم برای آن‌ها بنویسند. در پادگان مدرس می‌گفتند مهدی نواب «آخر حلال خوری» است. همسرم شب خسته وقتی تست تمام شده می‌آمد خانه دوربین را هم با خودش می‌آورد اما نمی‌خوابید. می‌نشست دوربین‌ها را تمیز می‌کرد. با الکل می‌شست. در اتاق سمعی بصری می‌گذاشت تا بتواند ساعتی راحت بخوابد. من دوست دارم شهیدم مثل همیشه که به خاطر نوع شغلش کسی او را نشناخت، امروز هم گمنام باشد اما فکر می‌کنم حالا که دارد از او در جاهای مختلف روایت و نوشته می‌شود باید درست نوشته شود. به همین دلیل به همه می‌گویم از شهید درست بنویسید تا شهید شفاعت‌تان کند اما اگر نادرست بنویسید باید جواب بچه من را در آن دنیا بدهید.






شهید نواب گواهینامه صخره نوردی، برف نوردی و فتح قله دماوند را داشت/هر وقت فشار کار زیاد بود به کوه می‌رفتند و انرژی زیادی می‌گرفتند

**تسنیم: در مورد مسئولیت کار کوهنوردی ایشان هم توضیح دهید.*

در اوایل دهه 80 شهید طهرانی مقدم مسئول کوهنوردی سپاه شد و شهید نواب مسئول دفتر و تدارکات کوهنوری سپاه شد و هماهنگی بیشتر فتح قله‌ها و لوازم کوهنوردی و خرید آن به عهده شهید نواب بود. هماهنگی 5هزار نفر کوهنورد و اعزام به کوه دماوند به نام حضرت زهرا(س) را شهید نواب انجام داد که برای این موضوع خیلی زحمت کشید. ایشان در یک هفته دوبار به قله کوه دماوند رفت یکبار برای چسباندن لوح یا زهرا(س) و دفعه دوم با گروه اعزام شد. شهید نواب گواهینامه صخره نوردی، برف نوردی و فتح قله دماوند را داشت.






تقدیر به خاطر تلاش در صعود 4127 نفر از سپاهیان و بسیجیان به دماوند در سالروز میلاد حضرت زهرا(س)








گواهی صعود به قله دماوند

در جهادخودکفایی هم هر وقت فشار کار زیاد بود این عزیزان به کوه می‌رفتند و انرژی زیادی می‌گرفتند هرچه کار سنگین‌تر می‌شد ایمانشان بیشتر می‌شد و هرچه خسته‌تر می‌شدند انرژی‌شان بیشتر از طرف خدا شارژ می‌شد انرژی آن‌ها زمینی نبود.






** تسنیم: شما که شناخت خوبی از شهید نواب داشتید. بیشتر از خصوصیات اخلاقی‌اش بگویید.*

آقای نواب خیلی مهربان بود. مثلا وقتی تست موفقی در پادگان انجام می‌شد یک نفر بقیه را شام دعوت می‌کرد آقای نواب همیشه اول از همان جا که خودش غذا می‌خورد برای بچه‌ها غذا می‌خرید و بعد که آنها خوردند، بعد خودش غذا می‌خورد. وقتی برمی‌گشت، می‌ رفت بالای سر مطهره، او را از خواب بیدار می‌کرد، یک ذره از کباب خودش در دهان او می‌گذاشت کمی به من هم می‌داد. می‌گفت «می‌خواهم با خیال راحت بخوابم». از آن طرف جمعه‌ها همیشه غذا با آقای نواب بود. می‌گفت «جمعه روز استراحت خانم‌ها است». یا غذا می‌پخت یا ما را بیرون می‌برد. استاد کباب پزی بود. بعد که روز شنبه فرا می‌رسید همه پر انرژی بودند. هم من، هم مطهره، هم خودش. خیلی خوش قول بود و صادق. و می گفت آدم ترسو دروغ می‌گوید و حق الناس را خیلی رعایت می‌کرد همه اینها را به دخترم هم یاد داده است.

به شهیدتان بگو دست از سر ما بردارد

یکی دو ماه هم قبل از شهادت دنبال خانه می‌گشتیم تا در محله‌ای که الان هستیم منزلی بخریم. بعد از شهادت درمحله‌ای که آقای نواب قبلا تایید کرده بود رفتم تا دنبال خانه بگردم. وقتی خانه ای پیدا کردیم، موقع سند زدن کمی اذیت شدیم. یک روز خیلی ناگهانی صاحب ملک آمد گفت «سند را به نامتان می‌زنم فقط به شهیدتان بگو دست از سر ما بردارد». شهدا بعد از شهادت هم کمک ما می‌کردند.

آقای نواب به حرف‌ها و سخنان پدرش خیلی اعتقاد داشت. پدر ایشان اگر درس روحانیت را ادامه می‌داد مرجع تقلید می‌شد. ایشان می‌گفت همیشه باید برای هرکاری عرق بریزی تا پولت حلال شود. هروقت پاداشی به آقای نواب می‌دادند، می‌گفت این پول حق من نیست می‌گفت وجدانم راحت نیست این پول را برنمی‌دارم. وقتی پاداش می‌دادند با آن دوربین فیلمبرداری می‌خرید برای کارش روی سیستم نصب می‌کرد. می‌گفت من برای این پول عرق نریخته‌ام و فقط برای حقوقم عرق ریخته‌ام.






ماجرای آموزش کار با دوربین فانتوم‌های‌اسپید فوق حرفه‌ای

یک دوربین فانتوم های‌اسپید فوق حرفه‌ای را با مشکل بسیار وارد ایران کردند تا از موشکی که می‌خواهد ماهواره را بالا ببرد فیلم بگیرد تا به این وسیله اگر اشکالی دارد متوجه آن بشوند. کسی نمی‌توانست با آن کار کند. مانده بودند با آن دوربین چه کنند. خودش هم ضبط نمی‌کرد باید با لپ تاپ کار می‌کرد. دیدند تنها راهش این است که از یکی از کشورها استادی بیاورند تا به آقای نواب و همکارش آموزش دهند. گفتند اگر بفهمند برای سپاه است آن استاد برای آموزش نمی‌آید. یک کلاس فرمالیته در دفتر مانند کلاس‌های آموزشی ایجاد کردند و در رأس کلاس، آقای نواب و همکارش نشستند.

حاج حسن و بچه‌هایش متعهدانه کار می‌کردند

**تسنیم: روزهایی که تست موشکی داشتند شما را در جریان قرار می‌دادند؟*

بله؛ روزهایی که تست داشتند می‌دیدم که وسایل فیلمبرداری را آماده می‌کردند. دوربین را لای یک پتو می‌پیچید و در ماشین می‌گذاشت و آخر سر هم یک پتو روی همه آن‌ها می‌کشید تا نکند صدمه‌ای ببینند. جزء وصیت‌هایش هم این بود که بعد از من بیت المال را درست تحویل دهید. من چهار ماه زحمت کشیدم که یکی از آقایان بیاید این بیت المال را از من تحویل بگیرد. لوازم کوهنوردی هم مثل وسایل تصویربرداری همینطور در میان وسایلش بود که همه گران قیمت و برای استفاده حرفه‌ای بود و همه را تحویل دادم.

وقتی همسرم به شهادت رسید نگذاشتم حتی یک حجله یا بنر در خانه‌مان بگذارند. چون منزل ما کلی فیلم‌ و اسناد سری در خودش داشت. دو گاوصندوق بزرگ در دفتر سمعی بصری‌اش داشت که پر از فیلم‌هایی بود که از شروع یگان موشکی تا تست‌های حسن آقای طهرانی‌مقدم همه داخل آن بود. همه را مهر و موم کردم. برادرم چهار ماه شب‌ها در خانه ما می‌ماند که من تنهایی با این اسناد در خانه نباشم.

من از این ناراحت بودم که می‌گفتند شهید طهرانی مقدم در حین تست موشک شهید شد و شهید سلگی و شهید نواب در زاغه مهمات به شهادت رسیدند. انگار برخی اصرار دارند که این‌ها را از هم جدا کنند در حالی که همه می‌دانند این‌ها کار را با هم شروع کردند و با هم شهید شدند و همیشه و هر لحظه با هم بودند. آقای سلگی زیاد اهل گفتن نبود ولی آقای نواب وقتی از سرکار برمی‌گشت یک به یک موفقیت‌هایش را توضیح می‌داد. این تست‌ها می‌دانید چقدر سلامتی و جوانی این‌‌ها را گرفت؟ حاج حسن و بچه‌هایش متعهدانه کار می‌کردند.






به خاطر کار در آزمایشگاه سوخت، شیمیایی شده بود/ حسن آقا می‌گفت: من باقالی فروشی هم بروم مهدی را با خودم می‌برم

** تسنیم: کمی هم از خطرات و مشکلات شغلشان بگویید.*

کل بدن آقای نواب را رماتیسم گرفته بود. نمی‌توانست تکان بخورد در آزمایشگاه هم که باسوخت کار می‌کردند شیمیایی شده بود. بیرون‌روی شدید گرفته و زیر چشم‌هایش کبود شده بود. خلاصه به خاطر این مشکلات استعفایش را نوشت. متن استعفایش را من نوشتم گفت بنویس: «من دیگر قادر به ادامه کار نیستم». صبح حسن آقا به من زنگ زد گفت بار آخر باشد برای آقا مهدی استعفا می‌نویسی. من باقالی فروشی هم بروم مهدی را با خودم می‌برم. پس دیگر سعی نکن بنویسی. گفتم: «حاج ‌آقا خودش گفت بنویس.» گفت: «به احترام دست خط شما پاره‌اش نکردم. فکر می‌کرد من به مهدی گفته‌ام استعفا بده بیا بیرون.»

وقتی وزیردفاع آقای وحیدی منزل ما آمد، از خاطراتش با شهید تهرانی مقدم که تعریف می‌کرد، می‌گفت: «حسن آقا همیشه می‌گفت دست چپ و راست من محمد و مهدی هستند.» اما بعد از شهادت همه چیز عوض شد همه‌اش می‌گفتم ای کاش یکی از این سه نفر زنده بود تا از حق آن دوتای دیگر دفاع می‌کرد.

زانوهایش آب آورده بود/ از مظلومیتش حرص می‌خوردم

20 روز قبل از شهادت زانوهایش آب آورده بود و مثل پرتغال بزرگ شده بود. به خاطر اینکه زیاد سرپا کار کرده بود. حسن آقا خودش به یکی از دوستانش سفارش کرده بود که از یک دکتر خوب برای او وقت معاینه و درمان بگیرد. چون می‌دانست اگر این‌ها نتوانند سر کار بروند، کار می‌خوابد. مهدی نواب و محمد سلگی کارشان به گونه‌ای بود که وقتی یکی از آن‌ها مریض می‌شد دیگری به جایش کار می‌کرد.

دیگر این اواخر آقای سلگی که درگیر دیسک کمر و عمل بود و پاهای آقای نواب هم آب آورده بود. ما 9 شب او را بردیم دکتر. دکتر دو آمپول کورتن به زانوهایش زد. او هم خندید و به پرستار با خنده گفت خانواده ما را ببر بیرون که طاقت ندارند این چیزها را ببینند. بعد دو تا سرنگ هم فرو کرد و آب‌های زانوها را می‌کشید بیرون. اما آقای نواب فقط لبخند می‌زد. من از مظلومیتش حرص می‌خوردم که با این درد باز هم می‌خندد. همیشه می‌گفتم مهدی با چه چیزی می‌جنگی؟ خب حداقل وقتی درد داری یک آخ بگو که ما یک مسکنی به تو بدهیم. بعد او دست به سینه‌اش می‌زد و می‌گفت شیر؛ مُرده‌اش هم شیر است. من همان شیر هستم و نمی‌گذارم این درد من را از پا بیندازد. با اراده خودم درد را از پا می‌اندازم. دکتر که آب پایش را کشید گفت باید سه روز استراحت مطلق داشته باشی.

هیچ وقت نمی‌گذاشت من رانندگی کنم آن روز با آن وضع، باز هم خودش رانندگی کرد، بنزین هم زد، نان هم خرید و صبح هم تست داشتند و گذاشت و رفت. دو روز بعد دوباره هر دوپایش آب آورد. این بار بیشتر از دفعه قبل بود دیگر زیر زانویش هم آب آورده بود. به او گفتم به حسن آقا بگو من به سه روز استراحت نیاز دارم. می‌گفت دیگر به حسن آقا ربطی ندارد. ما آنقدر جلو رفته‌ایم که دیگر نمی‌توانیم جلوی روند کار را بگیریم. فقط این را به تو بگویم که بهمن کار ما تمام می‌شود.






یکی از دوستانشان تعریف می‌کرد که دو سه سال قبل از شهادتشان در سوله، داشتند موتوری که سوخت زده بودند را برای تست آماده‌ می‌کردند. مهدی نواب دست حسن آقای طهرانی‌مقدم را می‌گیرد که بیا شما برو بیرون. حسن آقا می‌گوید چرا. مهدی نواب فقط داد می‌زند که خطر این کار خیلی زیاد است، می‌گویم بیا شما برو بیرون. خلاصه وقتی می‌آید بیرون. همانجایی که حسن آقا ایستاده بود نازل موتور در می‌رود و مثل ترکش دیوار را سوراخ می‌کند. یعنی اگر حسن آقا آنجا بود، شهید شده بود. مهدی برایم تعریف می‌کرد که حسن آقا آنجا به آقای نواب گفته بود: مهدی! تو دیگر کی هستی؟

حسن آقا جسارت سلگی و تیزبینی و درایت نواب را نیاز داشت

زیاد شنیدیم که همیشه در پادگان، حسن آقا می‌گفت بعد از من، حرف مهدی و محمد را دریابید. یادم هست صبح به صبح آقای دشتبان زنگ می‌زد به آقای نواب و درمورد روال کار صحبت می‌کرد. برای همین است که می‌گویم وقتی روال کار این‌ها اینقدر با دقت و نظم پیش می‌رفت، روی حساب جلو می‌رفت، نباید ایرادی داشته باشد. از معدود کسانی که فرمول سوخت را غیر خود حسن آقا می‌دانستند، یکی آقای نواب بود.

پسرعمه (آقای سلگی) زیاد ریسک می‌کرد اما آقای نواب اینطور نبود، خیلی مقرراتی بود مثلا همیشه وقتی از خانه بیرون می‌رفتیم گازها را قطع می‌کرد. برق را قطع می‌کرد. پسر عمه اما اهل ریسک بود خطر را به جان می‌خرید. این دو نفر، دو مهره در کنار هم بودند یکی فکر می‌کرد و دومی ریسک می‌کرد. آقای نواب به من می‌گفت محمد این‌ها را به خانم‌اش نمی‌گوید تو یواشکی به خواهرت بگو تا مراقب بچه‌ها باشد.

وقتی مشهد می‌رفتیم آقای تهرانی‌مقدم می‌گفتند دو تاخانواده با هم در یک هواپیما نباشند که اگر برای یکی از خانواده‌ها اتفاقی افتاد آن یکی سلامت بماند. همیشه حسن آقا می‌گفت این دو آچار فرانسه من هستند. چند وقت یکبار زنگ می‌زد به ما و تشکر می‌کرد و می‌گفت حضور اینها از حضور شماست و می‌دانم اگر شما چیزی به همسرانتان بگویید یا اذیتی کنید این‌ها نمی‌توانند با این انرژی سر کار بیایند. و اگر این دو نباشند کار من پیش نمی‌رود. جسارت سلگی و تیزبینی و درایت آقا مهدی را حسن آقا نیاز داشت.






وقتی به خانه می‌آمد شیفت جدیدی از کارش در دفتر سمعی بصری شروع می‌شد

** تسنیم: در جریان پیشرفت‌های کاری آن‌ها هم بودید؟*

بله؛ دفتر سمعی بصری نزدیک ما بود. فیلم‌ها را آقای نواب می‌آورد خانه و می‌دید. گاهی به من می‌گفت من دیگر چشمم به این صحنه عادت کرده تو دقت کن ببین. یادم هست یکبار دخترم وقتی کم سن و سال بود گفت من بروم مدرسه بگویم پدرم چه کاره است کلی افتخار برایم دارد. این موضوع تشری برای آقای نواب بود که دیگر زمان‌هایی که مطهره در خانه بود چنین فیلم‌هایی را نمی‌آورد. دختر من یاد گرفته بود و در مدرسه هر کسی می‌پرسید پدرت چه کاره است می‌گفت نجار است و به هیچ کس نمی‌گفت که پاسدار است. برای آنکه خطری فعالیت های مهدی را تهدید نکند. همسرم وقتی به خانه می‌آمد شیفت جدیدی از کارش شروع می‌شد. می‌رفت دفتر سمعی بصری فیلم‌ها را جمع می‌کرد تا چیز دیگری درست کند. برای این کار همه‌شان خیلی زحمت کشیدند. 10 سال جوانی و سلامتی‌شان را گذاشتند. یادم هست یک نمایشگاه بود و آقا برای بازدید آمده بودند، عکس‌هایش هست که لباس سفید تنشان بوده است. این عکس‌ها و فیلم‌ها از کارهای آقای نواب است. دیدم حسن آقا دارد این ها را به آقا معرفی می‌کند.

وقتی تست موفق می‌شد، از دهات‌های بیدگنه صدای الله اکبر می‌آمد/شهید نواب می‌گفت از اینجا می‌توانیم آمریکا و اسرائیل را بزنیم

یادم مانده است که همیشه می‌گفت زمان‌هایی که تست ما موفق می‌شود بیدگنه می‌فهمد، دیگر صداها را می‌شناسند؛ از دهات‌های بیدگنه صدای الله اکبر می‌آمد و می‌فهمیدند که تست ما موفق بوده است. یکبار می‌گفت آن اوایل کار تست کوچکی داشته‌اند که در رفته و در میان یک خانه‌ در یک روستا افتاده بود. ترکش به زمین خورده و خدا را شکر کسی آسیبی ندیده بود، آقای طهرانی‌مقدم دستور داد آن خانه قدیمی را بازسازی کنند همه چیز از اول ساخته شد. خدا خواست ترکش وارد خانه‌ای شود که سقفش نشت دارد تا به این وسیله خانه بازسازی شود. آقای نواب می‌گفت این الله اکبرها دل ما را می‌لرزاند. کار این بچه‌ها موفق بود و می‌گفت: «دلمان خوش است که اگر سلامتی و جان‌مان را می‌دهیم می‌دانیم که در کنارش شیعه دارد قدرتمند می‌شود. از اینجا می توانیم آمریکا و اسرائیل را بزنیم.»

ادامه دارد...

خبرگزاری بین المللی تسنیم - آقامهدی می‌گفت، آمریکا و اسرائیل را از «همین‌جا» می‌توانیم بزنیم​


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## scythian500

rmi5 said:


> I told you oldman, pour the water where it burns, don't pour it elsewhere.
> Yeah, I am half Iranian,does it make a difference?!!! even if it does, then what's your point? moaning about Iranians who live in 1st world countries, because after n decades of living, you failed to manage to live outside of Iran and you are jealous?  In contrast to what you might think, I know Iranians mentality very well, and can even recognize what's going on in their brains even from thousands of miles away
> Yeah, what if I tell you that they consider Iranians as their fellow americans/Canadians? would it burn more?
> 
> @Abii @Militant Atheist @New I guess his butthurt comes from being jealous of you guys.


Did I mention any names in my post?? Why do you think you match my description of wide ash first world refugees? People who lived enough in first world and has strong culture from back home and a good raising from their family before move can really tell the difference and judge from what I have mentioned and others trying to...
Yes...!! Canadian and Americans recognize you refugees as their own people!! and not as a pittifull poor refugee..... yeah right!!... have some dignity my friend..
My words are simple:
1- only Iranians who make a move and take an step for their own home country are desevred to make ghor ghor about it...
2- One refugee in West can not consider itself as a westerner as their hosts won't do this...
3- I decided to serve my people and my country... be it Iran or USA or Australia your home country.. you have to help it to improve or let others do the job and you keep saying annoying stuff about yourself and your people

One important thing:
As far as I remember you were claiming strongly before that you are not Iranian and only an Azerbaijani Republic citizen used to study in Iranian universities!!! Now, you became Iranian.... remember those days that I promised you to be Iranian and you were objecting me by saying... you,re not!!

Another important thing:

In my 56 years old of very busy life, i can testify personally that current Western culture or what main stream media is trying to promote in those countries is a pure step back toward stone age animal like homo sapiens.... think for a moment about the differences between an animal who tries to live its programmed instinct-based life of not thinking...having no limitations...doing whatever pleases them.... like an animal that has no beliefs, no religion, nothing comes from its brain but to have more food, more sex, more killing...
Now, if we compare current western agenda to animals you see clearly that that culture is even worse than animals as they promote Same Sex marriage, no family and things that even animals do respect....

good things about Western culture are discipline, respect even if it is superficial, strategy.... 
Bad things are doing many things against their nature and more like an animal ruling jungle with the exception of its LION not giving a sit about anything but security of its fellow jungle citizens...

Why do you think my description matches you? Why you are Iranian now and were not Iranian before?

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## SOHEIL

*Tue Oct 01, 2013*

Deputy DM: Iran Working to Increase Range of Air-Based Missiles to 300km

Farsnews

Iran announced on Tuesday that the country's experts are building a new long-range air-to-air missile system named *'Maqsoud'* (Objective).

"Iran has accomplished construction of the mid-range air-to-air Fakour 90 missile and is now building *Maqsoud* missile system as its newest long-range air-to-air missile system," Deputy Head of the General Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces General Mohammad Hejazi said, addressing a forum here in Tehran today.

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## rmi5

scythian500 said:


> Did I mention any names in my post?? Why do you think you match my description of wide ash first world refugees? People who lived enough in first world and has strong culture from back home and a good raising from their family before move can really tell the difference and judge from what I have mentioned and others trying to...
> Yes...!! Canadian and Americans recognize you refugees as their own people!! and not as a pittifull poor refugee..... yeah right!!... have some dignity my friend..
> My words are simple:
> 1- only Iranians who make a move and take an step for their own home country are desevred to make ghor ghor about it...
> 2- One refugee in West can not consider itself as a westerner as their hosts won't do this...
> 3- I decided to serve my people and my country... be it Iran or USA or Australia your home country.. you have to help it to improve or let others do the job and you keep saying annoying stuff about yourself and your people
> 
> One important thing:
> As far as I remember you were claiming strongly before that you are not Iranian and only an Azerbaijani Republic citizen used to study in Iranian universities!!! Now, you became Iranian.... remember those days that I promised you to be Iranian and you were objecting me by saying... you,re not!!
> 
> Another important thing:
> 
> In my 56 years old of very busy life, i can testify personally that current Western culture or what main stream media is trying to promote in those countries is a pure step back toward stone age animal like homo sapiens.... think for a moment about the differences between an animal who tries to live its programmed instinct-based life of not thinking...having no limitations...doing whatever pleases them.... like an animal that has no beliefs, no religion, nothing comes from its brain but to have more food, more sex, more killing...
> Now, if we compare current western agenda to animals you see clearly that that culture is even worse than animals as they promote Same Sex marriage, no family and things that even animals do respect....
> 
> good things about Western culture are discipline, respect even if it is superficial, strategy....
> Bad things are doing many things against their nature and more like an animal ruling jungle with the exception of its LION not giving a sit about anything but security of its fellow jungle citizens...
> 
> Why do you think my description matches you? Why you are Iranian now and were not Iranian before?



again you wrote a long response with no meanings. 
Just about your important(!!!) thing, as I have explained to you for multiple times, I have roots in both Azerbaijan republic and Islamic Republic of Iran(Azeri regions) and have lived in Iran for 10+ years. So, what do you expect me to say? do you expect me to say that I am not Iranian(or half-Iranian) at all? I doubt if I have said anything different before.

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## Hack-Hook

SOHEIL said:


> *Tue Oct 01, 2013*
> 
> Deputy DM: Iran Working to Increase Range of Air-Based Missiles to 300km
> 
> Farsnews
> 
> Iran announced on Tuesday that the country's experts are building a new long-range air-to-air missile system named *'Maqsoud'* (Objective).
> 
> "Iran has accomplished construction of the mid-range air-to-air Fakour 90 missile and is now building *Maqsoud* missile system as its newest long-range air-to-air missile system," Deputy Head of the General Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces General Mohammad Hejazi said, addressing a forum here in Tehran today.


well I guess this system only can be used in F-14 and SU-24 . don't think our other airplanes are capable of using it.

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## haman10

JEskandari said:


> SU-24


Su-24 is not an Air superiority jet . its an interdictor 

The only capable system for now is F-14 .

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## scythian500

rmi5 said:


> again you wrote a long response with no meanings.
> Just about your important(!!!) thing, as I have explained to you for multiple times, I have roots in both Azerbaijan republic and Islamic Republic of Iran(Azeri regions) and have lived in Iran for 10+ years. So, what do you expect me to say? do you expect me to say that I am not Iranian(or half-Iranian) at all? I doubt if I have said anything different before.


have u ever been a citizen of Iran or Az republic? talking about roots I have quarter Persian, Quarter Kurdish, Half Northern Caspian... but all these are from history books... all I am is Iranian by nationality but heart by passport.... 
so tell me, have you ever had Iranian citizenship or Az Republic citizenship by born or other ways??


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## rmi5

scythian500 said:


> have u ever been a citizen of Iran or Az republic? talking about roots I have quarter Persian, Quarter Kurdish, Half Northern Caspian... but all these are from history books... all I am is Iranian by nationality but heart by passport....
> so tell me, have you ever had Iranian citizenship or Az Republic citizenship by born or other ways??



What else do you wanna know? My passport, and ID numbers for countries that I hold their citizenship?!!!  I am no stupid to talk about my private info in a wahabi forum. Even if I tell something, I always try not to say some stuff or distort some other stuff to save my privacy.  I suggest you to do the same 

PS. Southern Caspian(Northern Iranian) people in general are very fun, and very nice people, I don't know why you are like this?!!!
PPS. I don't mean that you are not a cool grandpa  but you are weird


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## scythian500

rmi5 said:


> What else do you wanna know? My passport, and ID numbers for countries that I hold their citizenship?!!!  I am no stupid to talk about my private info in a wahabi forum. Even if I tell something, I always try not to say some stuff or distort some other stuff to save my privacy.  I suggest you to do the same
> 
> PS. Southern Caspian(Northern Iranian) people in general are very fun, and very nice people, I don't know why you are like this?!!!
> PPS. I don't mean that you are not a cool grandpa  but you are weird


I didn't ask your ID numbers... I,m putting a closure on what your Ottoman brothers of yours trying to attack you with... You either were born Iranian in citizenship or in Az republic citizenship.. This is no privacy issues... like I declare that I am Iranian by citizenship and heart and I,m deeply proud of it...

PS: What Wahhabi's has to do with you? You,re not even a practicing main stream Shia if I,m right... And if they could do anything they had millions of them in their reach in Eastern Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Bahrain, Kuwait, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan...while you,re safe and sound in the arms of Iran's best friend in North America!

I have many Iranian azeri friends in Iran and they are very lovely and proud Iranians...I,m a very proud Iranian... I both am proud of my home's pre-Islamic and Post-Islamic history and culture... I love Cyrus the great, Darius the Greater, Sattar khan and Shahriar the poet as I love my religious leaders the prophets and Ahl el beit .. These are all precious parts of my home land and identity... it is what I am and I,m very proud of it.

PSS: I,m not from Southern Caspian....

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## rmi5

scythian500 said:


> I didn't ask your ID numbers... I,m putting a closure on what your Ottoman brothers of yours trying to attack you with... You either were born Iranian in citizenship or in Az republic citizenship.. This is no privacy issues... like I declare that I am Iranian by citizenship and heart and I,m deeply proud of it...


Why should anyone know about my place of birth, and what if it is neither IRI nor AZ? (I am not necessarily saying that it's not)


> PS: What Wahhabi's has to do with you? You,re not even a practicing main stream Shia if I,m right... And if they could do anything they had millions of them in their reach in Eastern Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Bahrain, Kuwait, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan...while you,re safe and sound in the arms of Iran's best friend in North America!


Wahabis are batshit crazy. Hopefully, there are not much of them living in North America(in contrast to Europe), but honestly if I see one of them having those weird beards or burqa, I would change my route and keep a safe distance from them simply because I honor my life and these goons are like walking bombs. for example, there is a sunni mosque in the direct way that I drive from home to a mall, and it's for years that I am using a secondary route, which is longer but does not get close to this mosque. I think I have previously talked about it with @Abii


> I have many Iranian azeri friends in Iran and they are very lovely and proud Iranians...I,m a very proud Iranian... I both am proud of my home's pre-Islamic and Post-Islamic history and culture... I love Cyrus the great, Darius the Greater, Sattar khan and Shahriar the poet as I love my religious leaders Ahl el beit .. These are all precious parts of my home land and identity... it is what I am and I,m very proud of it.
> 
> PSS: I,m not from Southern Caspian....


Just a quick note for proud granspa; Northern Caspian means Astrakhan and Atyrau which is Russia and Kazakhstan. Southern Caspian means Mazandani, Talysh, Gilak, and Turkmens.
Are you Russian?!!!





Scythian wearing Ushanka


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## scythian500

rmi5 said:


> Why should anyone know about my place of birth, and what if it is neither IRI nor AZ? (I am not necessarily saying that it's not)
> 
> Wahabis are batshit crazy. Hopefully, there are not much of them living in North America(in contrast to Europe), but honestly if I see one of them having those weird beards or burqa, I would change my route and keep a safe distance from them simply because I honor my life and these goons are like walking bombs. for example, there is a sunni mosque in the direct way that I drive from home to a mall, and it's for years that I am using a secondary route, which is longer but does not get close to this mosque. I think I have previously talked about it with @Abii
> 
> Just a quick note for proud granspa; Northern Caspian means Astrakhan and Atyrau which is Russia and Kazakhstan. Southern Caspian means Mazandani, Talysh, Gilak, and Turkmens.
> Are you Russian?!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scythian wearing Ushanka


yes somwhere in western kaz....

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## yavar

FOR FOOL 

Iran Ayatollah Khamenei :the time of hit and run away has come to end دوران بزن و دررو تمام شده






Iran Gen Salami:we are fully ready for worst case scenario with US /battlefield will show our real power victories

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## Minute by Minute

What the Islamic Republic needs to do is to make certain, that the western leaders understand without A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that their own very life will be at stake, if they decide to attack Iran. The usa president, the French president, the british prime minister, their military leaders and financiers must be made to understand, that attacking Iran is as good as signing their own deathsentense. It must be made clear to them, that when it comes to attacking Iran, they have no IMPUNITY AND WILL BE HUNTED DOWN and will pay with their own lives.
We have to openly declare, that the day after an attack on Iran the helicopter of the usa president will be blown to pieces, that the car driving the french president will be blown skyhigh and so will the British prime minister! They must know, that their impunity is over!

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## yavar

*A senior Iranian commander said the Army’s Ground Forces will stage a major missile exercise *


“The exercise, codenamed Beit-ul-Muqaddas 27, will be held in Kashan’s Maranjab [Desert] and Isfahan’s Nasrabad [City] on May 23-24,” Commander of the Iranian Army’s Ground Forces Brigadier General Ahmad Reza Pourdastan told IRNA on Tuesday, Press TV reported.

He added that Iran’s Ground Forces have improved their rocket and missile capabilities which would be put to the test during the maneuvers.


Commander: Iranian Army to stage missile drill in May

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## SOHEIL



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## Draco.IMF

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 226650
> View attachment 226651



Old pic, no coment added
what do you try to tell us with it?

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## yavar

*Pentagon: Iran Continuing Work on Nuclear Systems*


Iran is continuing to develop missiles capable of delivering nuclear weapons despite an interim agreement on its nuclear programs, according to a Pentagon report.
the one-page unclassified summary of the report says.
A copy of the report was obtained by the Washington Free Beacon.
The report was due to Congress in January but was not sent to the Armed Services Committee as required by law until this month. Analysts said the delay appeared designed to avoid upsetting Tehran and the nuclear talks.
Last year Director of National Intelligence James Clapper testified that Iran “would choose a ballistic missile as its preferred method of delivering nuclear weapons.” And in February, Iran launched a Safir long-range missile system.
“In 2013, the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC) made the following statement about this system: Iran could develop and test an ICBM capable of reaching the United States by 2015,” the report said.
“Since 2008, Iran has conducted multiple successful launches of the two-stage Safir space launch vehicle (SLV) and has also revealed the larger two stage Simorgh SLV, which could serve as a test bed for developing ICBM technologies.”
The committee asked the secretary of defense to provide an update on Iran’s ballistic missile programs.
As a result of the delay in the annual Iran military power report, the committee directed the Pentagon to provide a briefing on the Iranian missile threat, and to update the January report.
Ilan Berman, an Iran specialist with the American Foreign Policy Council, said the release of the report is good news but “has long been conspicuous by its absence.”
“The study is long overdue, and its delay suggests that the administration has been leery of injecting inconvenient facts into the Iran debate as it closes in on a nuclear deal with the regime in Tehran,” Berman said.
Mark Dubowitz, another Iran expert, said Tehran is continuing to develop long-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads, in violation of U.N. Security Council limits.
“The Obama administration ceded to Iranian demands that their missile program was non-negotiable and, instead, has tried to reassure Congress that this missile threat can be mitigated by constraining Iran’s ability to develop a nuclear warhead,” said Dubowitz, executive director of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
“This major administration concession to Iran will greatly complicate the U.S. intelligence community’s ability to detect whether Iran has develop a nuclear warhead-carrying ICBM capable of reaching the continental United States,” he added. “By its very nature, it is much more difficult to detect and prevent warhead development, which can take place in small, covert facilities, than it is to determine the nature and extent of a hostile missile program. In yet another example of how deeply flawed the emerging Iran deal will be, Tehran will have a much easier pathway to develop systems.”


Pentagon: Iran Continuing Work on Nuclear Systems | Washington Free Beacon

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## yavar

«قائم»؛ شاهکار شهید مقدم که ماهواره‌های ایرانی را به ارتفاع 1000 کیلومتری می‌برد
نوبت "قائم" ایران می رسد

همانطور که در ابتدای گزارش اشاره شد، ماهواره بر 4 مرحله ای و سوخت جامد قائم یکی از آخرین پروژه های در حال پیگیری توسط شهید حسن طهرانی مقدم و شاید مهمترین آنها بوده است. به گزارش مشرق، بنا بر اطلاعات منتشر شده در رسانه ملی، قطر مرحله اول این موشک 3.5 متر و ارتفاع آن 20 متر بوده و برای رساندن محموله به مدار 1000 کیلومتری طراحی شده است.

به نظر می رسد ساختار این موشک به صورت قرارگیری پشت سر هم مراحل باشد. می توان گمانه زنی نمود که موفقیت در طراحی و ساخت نمونه های سابق که پس از تلاش های فراوان مجموعه های مختلفی در کشور حاصل شد، انگیزه و نقطه اتکاء اصلی در ورود به طراحی موشک قائم بوده باشد که گامی چند برابر بلندتر از مواردی چون سجیل محسوب می شود.







موشک های بالستیک و ماهواره بر ایران در کنار تصویر گرافیکی فرضی از مرحله اول موشک قائم
علاوه بر مسائل شرح داده شده در این گزارش نگاهی به سایر موشک های فضائی ساخته شده در دنیا می توان بخش هایی از عظمت این پروژه را نمایان سازد. 

موشک های فضائی و نظامی متعددی به صورت 3 مرحله ای با ساختار مراحل پشت سر هم ساخته شده اند که برخی از نمونه های فضائی دارای موتورهای 
کمکی اولیه (بوستر) در کنار مرحله اول خود نیز هستند که از آنها به عنوان مرحله صفر یاد می شود.

«قائم»؛ شاهکار شهید مقدم که ماهواره‌های ایرانی را به ارتفاع 1000 کیلومتری می‌برد - مشرق نیوز | آخرین اخبار ایران و جهان | mashreghnews.ir​

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## seyed ali

Iran has forged ahead with a Russian partnership while also advancing its military-industrial capabilities at home.

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## yavar



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## Shahnameh

@yavar

I think this retard senator is misquoting Khamenei. Iran says "long range missile" when referring to the likes of sejill, ghadir. Where did this moron get the statement the leader ordered mass production of ICBM's?

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## yavar

Shahnameh said:


> @yavar
> 
> I think this retard senator is misquoting Khamenei. Iran says "long range missile" when referring to the likes of sejill, ghadir. Where did this moron get the statement the leader ordered mass production of ICBM's?


my brother i think you wrong on this .

Khamenei said mass production of missiles .Khamenei did not specified which ones or what type . he gave order to all arm forces to be fully prepared and for mass production missiles so ..........
++
if you look we have already have large stockpile of these obsolete ballistic missiles and many time they showed them and BSed that these are just been mass produced so why would Khamenei ask them to mass produce some more of these obsolete ballistic missiles which are use less ...............




.
++
General Michael Flynn he is Obama's former defense intelligence chief
he was intelligence officer with access to a lot of intelligence files and classified intelligence cables ++++so................

Flynn questioned the Obama administration's unwillingness to challenge Tehran's separate but parallel ballistic-missle program aimed at building 'preparedness to weaponize a missile for nuclear delivery.'
Iran's arsenal is already 'of high quality and growing,' he told lawmakers. 'Even today, their missiles cover most all of the Middle East, and the next generation will ( lied to the lawmakers so he had to use word "will" because it was open session hearing and he can not talk about anything classified because he took oath before when he became intelligence officer and if he reveal any information he could be prosecuted by law) include ICBMs capable of attacking the American homeland.'

Barack Obama's former intelligence director savages Iran nuclear negotiations | Daily Mail Online

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## yavar

FOR FOOLS

سازمان ملل: پرتاب ماهواره احتمالاً نشان‌دهنده دست‌یابی ایران به فناوری موشک‌‌
بالستیک است
هیئت کارشناسان سازمان ملل در گزارشی پرتاب ماهواره از سوی ایران به فضا را نشان‌دهنده دست‌یابی ایران به فناوری موشک‌‌های بالستیک دانسته است.





به گزارش گروه بین‌الملل خبرگزاری فارس، هیئت کارشناسان سازمان ملل ادعا کرده پرتاب یک ماهواره به فضا توسط ارتش ایران ممکن است نشان‌دهنده دست‌یابی ایران به فناوری موشک‌های بالستیک باشد.

طبق گزارش «فاکس‌نیوز»، این هیئت که روز 1 ژوئن یافته‌های مربوط به پرتاب ماهواره ایران به فضا در 15 فوریه را منتشر کرده مدعی است مقامات تهران با آنکه «گزارشی درباره هیچ یک از تحولات موشک‌های بالستیک جدید خود ارائه نمی‌کنند» یا از انواع جدید این موشک‌ها و آزمایش‌های آنها رونمایی نمی‌کنند قصد دارند تا تاریخ 16 مارس سه ماهواره دیگر را در نوبت پرتاب قرار دهند. بنا به این ادعا، این ماهواره‌ها قرار است از سکوهای پرتاب و سوار بر ماهواره‌برهای بزرگتر پرتاب شوند.

روزنامه‌ صهیونیستی جروزالم‌پست در حالی خواستار طرح موضوع موشکی در مذاکرات هسته‌ای بر اساس این یافته‌ها شده که طرفین اعلام کرده‌اند این گفت‌وگوها محدود به برنامه هسته‌ای ایران خواهد بود.

.​

سازمان ملل: پرتاب ماهواره احتمالاً نشان‌دهنده دست‌یابی ایران به فناوری موشک بالستیک است

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> *دست‌یابی ایران به فناوری موش بالستیک*

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## yavar

*Even so, a 7-member U.N. expert panel which is monitoring Iran’s behavior on the proliferation issue while negotiations continue noted in its June 1, 2015 report that Iran’s officials and news media “have not been reporting any new ballistic missile developments” such as the “unveiling or testing of new types of ballistic missiles,” or tests of medium-range missiles it is already known to possess.

Report of panel of experts on Iran sanctions*

http://www.foxnews.com/world/interactive/2015/06/10/report-panel-experts-on-iran-sanctions/

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## yavar

Just reminder

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> Just reminder



Not very new
I saw the launch of the missile in a youtubevideo from 2013


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## yavar

*The Iran missile mistake*

Iran’s insistence on keeping its ICBM program belies its claim that its program is peaceful, and letting Iran keep it belies President Obama’s stated intention to stop and dismantle the Iranian nuclear weapons threat. The last time we tried to separate the two issues — letting North Korea keep its missile program while striking a deal (which it predictably violated) on enrichment — we wound up with a rogue regime that had both. Does any serious person doubt we are heading that way again? After all, Wendy Sherman has played an instrumental role in both deals. We should fully expect similar results.

The Iran missile mistake - The Washington Post

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## yavar

Chuck Hagel Former U.S. Defense Secretary in confidence Carnegie Council which took place on June 18, 2015
said : Now, one component of all this too is not part of the deal, and that's the delivery capability of what the Iranians have, the missiles. They've got pretty sophisticated missiles..






Ethical Leadership: A Conversation with Chuck Hagel

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## yavar

*Experts: Iran Now a Nuclear-Ready State, Missiles Capable of Hitting US*
By William R. Graham, Henry F. Cooper, Fritz Ermarth, and Peter Vincent Pry | Sunday, 01 Feb 2015 06:30 PM
On Jan. 22, The Jerusalem Post reported that Iran deployed a new intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) "whose range far exceeds the distance between Iran and Israel, and between Iran and Europe." It was also shown on Israeli television.

Iran's development of an ICBM at this time would be consistent with unclassified U.S. intelligence community reports that in 2013 warned Iran could test an ICBM by 2015.

Iran and others claim the missile is not a military ICBM for delivering nuclear warheads but a peaceful Space Launch Vehicle (SLV) for orbiting satellites.

This is a distinction without a difference.

Iran has a demonstrated capability to orbit satellites weighing over a ton, which means it could also deliver a nuclear warhead against the U.S. or any nation on Earth.

Indeed, Iran has orbited several satellites on south polar trajectories passing over the western hemisphere from south to north, as if practicing to elude U.S. Ballistic Missile Early Warning Radars and National Missile Defenses, which are oriented to detect and intercept threats coming from the north.

Moreover, the altitude of these satellites, if they were carrying a nuclear weapon detonated over the center of the U.S., was in all three cases near optimum for generating an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) field across all 48 contiguous United States. EMP could cause a protracted blackout of the national electric grid and other life-sustaining critical infrastructures.

Iranian military writings describe eliminating the United States with an EMP attack. Rep. Trent Franks in congressional testimony given in December 2014 noted that an official Iranian military document, recently translated by the intelligence community, endorses making a nuclear EMP attack against the United States. The document describes the decisive effects of an EMP attack no fewer than 20 times.


Iran has missiles capable of delivering a nuclear weapon, but does Iran have a nuclear warhead?

Experts: Iran Now a Nuclear-Ready State, Missiles Capable of Hitting US

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## SOHEIL



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## Aramagedon

yavar said:


> *Experts: Iran Now a Nuclear-Ready State, Missiles Capable of Hitting US*
> By William R. Graham, Henry F. Cooper, Fritz Ermarth, and Peter Vincent Pry | Sunday, 01 Feb 2015 06:30 PM
> On Jan. 22, The Jerusalem Post reported that Iran deployed a new intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) "whose range far exceeds the distance between Iran and Israel, and between Iran and Europe." It was also shown on Israeli television.
> 
> Iran's development of an ICBM at this time would be consistent with unclassified U.S. intelligence community reports that in 2013 warned Iran could test an ICBM by 2015.
> 
> Iran and others claim the missile is not a military ICBM for delivering nuclear warheads but a peaceful Space Launch Vehicle (SLV) for orbiting satellites.
> 
> This is a distinction without a difference.
> 
> Iran has a demonstrated capability to orbit satellites weighing over a ton, which means it could also deliver a nuclear warhead against the U.S. or any nation on Earth.
> 
> Indeed, Iran has orbited several satellites on south polar trajectories passing over the western hemisphere from south to north, as if practicing to elude U.S. Ballistic Missile Early Warning Radars and National Missile Defenses, which are oriented to detect and intercept threats coming from the north.
> 
> Moreover, the altitude of these satellites, if they were carrying a nuclear weapon detonated over the center of the U.S., was in all three cases near optimum for generating an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) field across all 48 contiguous United States. EMP could cause a protracted blackout of the national electric grid and other life-sustaining critical infrastructures.
> 
> Iranian military writings describe eliminating the United States with an EMP attack. Rep. Trent Franks in congressional testimony given in December 2014 noted that an official Iranian military document, recently translated by the intelligence community, endorses making a nuclear EMP attack against the United States. The document describes the decisive effects of an EMP attack no fewer than 20 times.
> 
> 
> Iran has missiles capable of delivering a nuclear weapon, but does Iran have a nuclear warhead?
> 
> Experts: Iran Now a Nuclear-Ready State, Missiles Capable of Hitting US


Imperial


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## scythian500

anybody knows what is this missile in an under ground silo?

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## Tomyris

The last photo they are too large missile...

these are again long borne missile?

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## haman10

Tomyris said:


> The last photo they are too large missile...
> 
> these are again long borne missile?


MRBMs : Medium range ballistic missiles


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## Tomyris

haman10 said:


> MRBMs : Medium range ballistic missiles


thank you, it's a shihab? Sijil? how the worn?

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## The Last of us

@scythian500

The missile in the Silo is a shahab missile. It was confirmed in a video years ago. The reporter actually asked the official if the missile was a shahab missile and the official said yes.

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## haman10

Tomyris said:


> thank you, it's a shihab? Sijil? how the worn?


Khahesh mikonam abji (you're welcome sister in persian) .

Some of them are Ghiam and some are Ghadr H

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## Tomyris

haman10 said:


> Khahesh mikonam abji (you're welcome sister in persian) .
> 
> Some of them are Ghiam and some are Ghadr H


thank you  I hope that iran produces a large amount of these missile, our enemy will give up.

is there a draft intercontinental missile? 5000km? 10 000km?

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## haman10

Tomyris said:


> is there a draft intercontinental missile? 5000km? 10 000km?


EU is in reach now . as far as my knowledge is concerned , Iran is working on even higher range ICBMs .

US will be in reach in no time .

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## Hakan

when can iran export these legally?


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## [Bregs]

wow Iran has worked on its own all these years and has lethal punch of different type pf missiles targeting far areas like Europe

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## rmi5

Hakan said:


> when can iran export these legally?


Never. Exporting long range missiles is internationally banned.

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## The Last of us

This year we are going to see the new generation of missiles. 
They will stop the production live of fateh, qiam and ghadir ans replace the prodction with new missile. Can't wait to see the new badboys 



Don't forget the monster Ghaem SLV. 

Khoda Tehrani Moghdam va baghiye teamesh ke mordan ro biazmorzeh.

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## Tomyris

haman10 said:


> EU is in reach now . as far as my knowledge is concerned , Iran is working on even higher range ICBMs .
> 
> US will be in reach in no time .


the US is a bit far, I do not think we'll get a great result quickly, except with the help of Russian and Chinese.



The Last of us said:


> This year we are going to see the new generation of missiles.
> They will stop the production live of fateh, qiam and ghadir ans replace the prodction with new missile. Can't wait to see the new badboys
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget the monster Ghaem SLV.
> 
> Khoda Tehrani Moghdam va baghiye teamesh ke mordan ro biazmorzeh.


new missile it?

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## The Last of us

Tomyris said:


> new missile it?



Oh yes 



> TEHRAN (FNA)- Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh announced Iran's plans to replace its Fateh, Qiyam and Qadr missile series with a new generation of missiles next year.
> "We will abolish Fateh 110 missiles (a short-range, road-mobile, solid-propellant, high-precision ballistic missile with advanced navigation and control systems) as well as the mid-range (high-precision ballistic) Qiyam and Qadr (first generation of air-launched precision-guided) missiles to replace them with new missiles," Hajizadeh said in Tehran on Friday.



Farsnews



Tomyris said:


> the US is a bit far, I do not think we'll get a great result quickly, except with the help of Russian and Chinese.



Oh you are so wrong here sis . Have you not heard of Ghaem? Any country that can make such a monster solid fuel space launch vehicle can easily, and I mean easily make an ICBM. Technically, ghaem itself could be used as an ICBM but it will not be a very practical one due to its size/lack of mobility.


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## Hakan

rmi5 said:


> Never. Exporting long range missiles is internationally banned.


I wasn't clear my bad. In general the shorter range stuff, anti ship missiles etc.

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## Tomyris

The Last of us said:


> Oh yes
> 
> 
> 
> Farsnews
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you are so wrong here sis . Have you not heard of Ghaem? Any country that can make such a monster solid fuel space launch vehicle can easily, and I mean easily make an ICBM. Technically, ghaem itself could be used as an ICBM but it will not be a very practical one due to its size/lack of mobility.


I believe what I see ... you told me that the Qaher-313 and a real fighter, but I see still nothing.


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## haman10

Hakan said:


> I wasn't clear my bad. In general the shorter range stuff, anti ship missiles etc.


5 years on from the implementation of the deal

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## The Last of us

Tomyris said:


> I believe what I see ... you told me that the Qaher-313 and a real fighter, but I see still nothing.



I think you are mistaking me with someone else, I never said anything about qaher or fighter jet, even if I did, fighter jets are not a candy. They take years and years to finish development (assuming the funding is there). I think your problems is patience. You need to have patience. Seeing is believing, so just wait, in this year you'll see the missiles.
Missiles and fighter jet are two difference things here. Iranian missile industry is top notch whereas the fighter jet sector needs much, much more funding. Now that Iran will be richer, you'll see more money for jet figher. It is just a matter of time.

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## scythian500

The Last of us said:


> @scythian500
> 
> The missile in the Silo is a shahab missile. It was confirmed in a video years ago. The reporter actually asked the official if the missile was a shahab missile and the official said yes.


But look at the warhead of this missile!! It does not look any known to me... Although it could be the angle of view that makes the warhead look very much like a gas capsule!!







What is it? Is it photoshopped?

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## The Last of us

scythian500 said:


> But look at the warhead of this missile!! It does not look any known to me... Although it could be the angle of view that makes the warhead look very much like a gas capsule!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is it? Is it photoshopped?



It looks just like a shahab to me:

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## rahi2357

The Last of us said:


> It looks just like a shahab to me:


Time to move on to the solid-fueled stuff . The likes of sejil. It's not wise to share the money in two different programs. And liquid belongs to cold war era (Military usage i mean )

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## The Last of us

rahi2357 said:


> Time to move on to the solid-fueled stuff . The likes of sejil. It's not wise to share the money in two different programs. And liquid belongs to cold war era (Military usage i mean )



The problem is that of economy dadash. Iran produced these liquid fuelled missile because they can make these like candies. Now, remember, shahab is not even in production anymore. They make the ghadr series of missiles which are a hybrid. First stage is liquid and second stage is solid.

Ghadr-110 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what Iran has done, is reached a balance between price of missile and quality. The ghadr series production are going to be stopped and replaced with new missile. Probably it will still be hybrid missile, but with advanced warhead. Maybe the missile they tested last year with "rainy warhead"?

It seemed for Iran, they could produce liquid fuelled MRBM's much cheaper. Therefore they used liquid for first stage, because it was cheaper? and solid second stage for more quality/capability.

Full solid fuelled MRBM missiles like sejill will probably be used for anti-ship roles and other "special roles". Do you remember the news from a couple years ago that they tested an anti ship missile with range 3000km and speed of mach-13? That was most definitely a sejill derivative.

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## scythian500

rahi2357 said:


> Time to move on to the solid-fueled stuff . The likes of sejil. It's not wise to share the money in two different programs. And liquid belongs to cold war era (Military usage i mean )


Liquid fueled Shahabs will play the role of bate... The main current ones to level up Haifa and Tel Aviv are Sejil-1 and 2 and Ghadr-H (rainy warheads) If I'm not wrong.. although, there definitely are new missiles in waiting list to replace with these...

The new long range smart precise guidance warhead system is already installed on Sejils and will be installed on other missiles if needed. These new smart systems will give the missiles to steer in its final phase too... plus the solid fuel Sajils have very high initial phase speed and can maneuver... This means, Iran most probably in case of decision to level up Tel aviv, will fire a bunch of less sophisticated Shahabs to neutralize air defense systems and then immediately main warheads will come down on their head with speeds as high as 13 Mach (Sejil-1) and +13 (sejil-2) or more on their head... Fajr-3 MIRVs are another option... there are many tachtics to avoid or neutralize air defense systems... In case of an Israeli strike I see it very unlikely for Iran to shoot only couple of them to Israel. I have no doubt Iran will do one shockingly heavy strike in first attempt.

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## rahi2357

The Last of us said:


> Full solid fuelled MRBM missiles like sejill will probably be used for anti-ship roles and other "special roles". Do you remember the new from a couple years ago that they tested an anti ship missile with range 3000km and speed of mach-13? That was most definitely a sejill derivative.


Yes it was a version of sejjil with a lighter warhead but someone said it failed to hit the target .Not enough accurate . Still sejjil is the best MRBM in Iran's arsenal .

As you may know the designs in solid and liquid are too different . The main point is that Solid fuel missiles have a simple structure . The main thing that makes them hard to build is their solid fuel . In liquid fuel missiles you need to work more on the structure while the fuel is found in any Baghaali .In 21 century the liquid is no threat for big boys . You need solid for more speed , tougher body, wasting no time to fuel it..

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## The Last of us

rahi2357 said:


> Yes it was a version of sejjil with a lighter warhead but someone said it failed to hit the target .Not enough accurate .



Where did you hear this bro? Even if it failed first launch, it's a matter time before it succeeds. Important thing is, they're working on such a bad boy

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## scythian500

rahi2357 said:


> wasting no time to fuel it..


Time is not that much valuable in case of missiles. Not saying it is not important for the protection of the firing site. I mean, If Iran is under attack, Iran won't need to strike back in minutes... She can strike hours after strike... but as I said already, these liquid fueled missiles are in huge numbers and can be used for good purposes!

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## rahi2357

The Last of us said:


> Where did you hear this bro? Even if it failed first launch, it's a matter time before it succeeds. Important thing is, they're working on such a bad boy


I didn't mean sh!t bro.  Just that it's not in service yet. Sejjil is great anyway . But for longer ranges we need a better solid fuel. I mean look at U.S solid ICBMs . They have the same size as sejjil but 13000 km range . Even agni 5.. DF 31 ... I guess the reason that the Qaem rocket has a 20 meters long first stage is that it use the same fuel as sejil.




scythian500 said:


> Time is not that much valuable in case of missiles. Not saying it is not important for the protection of the firing site. I mean, If Iran is under attack, Iran won't need to strike back in minutes... She can strike hours after strike... but as I said already, these liquid fueled missiles are in huge numbers and can be used for good purposes!


That's a great tactic but after this deal we need quality more than quantity cuz I don't see any threat in coming years. And to be honest i hate communist strategies. Soviet did the same. They had different types of ICBMs in cold war era but non was great and flexible. U.S had one type in service and that type is still in service.

goodnight fellas

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## Tomyris

The Last of us said:


> I think you are mistaking me with someone else, I never said anything about qaher or fighter jet, even if I did, fighter jets are not a candy. They take years and years to finish development (assuming the funding is there). I think your problems is patience. You need to have patience. Seeing is believing, so just wait, in this year you'll see the missiles.
> Missiles and fighter jet are two difference things here. Iranian missile industry is top notch whereas the fighter jet sector needs much, much more funding. Now that Iran will be richer, you'll see more money for jet figher. It is just a matter of time.


the problem is that we do not have time, we will not wait a year to develop aircraft while our neighbor is received aircraft and high tech in large numbers.

for missile I know how much his cost us, but it would make a number importantpour deter our enemy. but to defend our nuclear missile site and we would need a high-tech aerial defense aircraft and high tech, and we have pas..heuresement that we were sold the Russian S-300


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## The Last of us

rahi2357 said:


> I. But for longer ranges we need a better solid fuel. I mean look at U.S solid ICBMs . They have the same size as sejjil but 13000 km range .



Yes, we need better solid fuels, or maybe they have them but they are not using them for sejill, due to price. Who knows 

Goodnight dadash. May you dream about ghaem

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## Hack-Hook

Hakan said:


> when can iran export these legally?


Never
No country can legally export balidtic missiles with such range .

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## Tomyris

iran could export ballistic and cruise missile with a maximum worn a 300km but no more


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## Serpentine

JEskandari said:


> Never
> No country can legally export balidtic missiles with such range .



But China gave them to Saudis, didn't they?


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## Hack-Hook

Serpentine said:


> But China gave them to Saudis, didn't they?


Well they did that before they sign the treaty . Later they signed it and stopped selling those missiles.

By the way if I were KSA authorities I stayed away from them as those old missiles are more probably fall in KSA rather someplace else.



Tomyris said:


> iran could export ballistic and cruise missile with a maximum worn a 300km but no more


After the iran-iraq war we produced zelzal for that purpose. But there was not much interest.

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## Aramagedon

*Iran to unveil defense systems that can counter electronic warfare: Cmdr.*

Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:26AM





The file photo shows Iran’s indigenous Bavar-373 missile defense system being showcased.
*
A senior Iranian commander says the country is to unveil missile defense systems with the technology to counter electronic warfare and equipped with mid-range and long-range radars.*

Missile systems capable of thwarting electronic warfare threats and new mid-range and long-range radars will be connected to Iran’s integrated air defense network on September 1, said Brigadier General Farzad Esmaili, the commander of Iran’s Khatam al-Anbiya Air Defense Base, on Saturday.

The senior Iranian commander added that the missile and radar defense systems will keep under surveillance significant areas of land in the south and southeastern part of Iran.

He added that one of the radars will have a range of approximately 1,000 kilometers (620 miles). The radar, Esmaili said, will be installed in one of the strategic areas of Iran.

The senior Iranian commander said in March that the country is capable of reconnoitering any spy aircraft flying far away from its borders, adding that Iran’s Air Defense Force will safeguard the Islamic Republic’s territorial integrity.

In recent years, Iran has made great achievements in its defense sector and reached self-sufficiency in producing essential military equipment and systems.

In April, Esmaili said the country’s domestically-built Bavar-373 air defense system, which is under development, will be ready for deployment by the end of the current Iranian calendar year (March 19, 2016).

The long-range system, which is similar to the Russian S-300 and was successfully test-fired last August, has been manufactured by Iranian defense experts and is capable of hitting air targets at a high altitude.

The Islamic Republic of Iran has repeatedly assured other nations, especially regional neighbors, that its military might poses no threat to other countries, stating that its defense doctrine is merely based on deterrence.

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## Shahryar Hedayati

*Iran Ballistic Missile Program is Unaffected by Nuclear Deal*






According to the latest reports stemming from the P5+1 talks, Iran is now insisting that UN sanctions on its ballistic missile program be lifted as part of a long-term nuclear accord.

Iran is believed to have the largest strategic missile force in the Middle East, producing short- and medium-range ballistic missiles, a long-range cruise missile, and long-range rockets. Although all of its missiles are conventionally armed at present, its medium-range ballistic missiles could deliver a nuclear weapon if Iran were to build such a device.

http://www.businessinsider.com/iran...gram-that-nobody-is-talking-about-2015-7?IR=T

The main Iranian ballistic missile force consists of Shahab 3, Shihab 3B and the newer Sejil-2 two stage ballistic missile.

The Iranian Shahab-3B missile is said to be a derivative of the 1,000-1,300 kilometer range North Korean Nodong-1. The Nodong missile was developed by North Korea with Iranian financial assistance. In 2005 Iran claimed for the first time to have developed and produced a laser gyroscope INS system coupled with GPS as backup. With that guidance system, the Shahab-3B could archive an accuracy of around 30-50m CEP or even less. This new improved accuracy was apparently the reason why the warhead weight has been significantly decreased - to suggested 500-750kg. This, namely, is sufficient for pin-point target attack capability.

Iran has successfully tested an optimized version of the solid-fuel Sejil-2 missile. This new version of the Sejil-2 is faster during the powered flight portion of its trajectory and also during the re-entry phase. It is also harder to detect for anti-missile systems, as it is covered with anti-radar material. The new highly maneuverable missile is also more efficient as it requires less amount of time for prelaunch preparations.

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## yavar

*Iran to Fire Missiles in War Drills*


Firing of missiles follows war games with Russia


Iranian army members prepare missiles to be launched / AP



BY: Adam Kredo
August 12, 2015 1:50 pm

The Iranian military is gearing up to launch a series of missile drills following a direct order to resume military activity from Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, according to Persian language reports flagged by the CIA’s Open Source Center.

The announcement that Iran will resume firing missiles comes a day after Russian and Iranian naval warships held a series of military exercises meant to display a joint show of force in the region.

Iranian military leaders said the missile drills aim to highlight the Islamic Republic’s “military might” in light of recent comments by U.S. officials saying that a military option against Iran remains on the table.

Khamenei ordered the Iranian military to resume launching missiles and running drills, according to a Persian language report by Iran’s state-controlled Fars News Agency, which is closely aligned with Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC).

The “launch of missiles will be conducted according to plans and as per the approval of commander-in-chief of the armed forces Supreme Leader [Ali Khamenei],” Major General Seyed Hassan Firouzabadi, chief of General Command Headquarters of Iran’s Armed Forces, was quoted as saying by Fars, according to the Open Source Center’s translation.

The Iranian parliament had also submitted a request to resume missile drills, according to the report. Firouzabadi reportedly thanked the parliament for making this request.

Earlier this month, senior figures in the Iranian parliament began to lobby to resume the missile drills as a show of force meant to deter the U.S. from striking Iran.

“If we hold a military drill and show the level of country’s defense preparedness, especially in the field of missiles, then the threatening language of Americans will change,” Seyyed Hossein Naqavi-Hosseini, a senior national security figure in the country’s parliament, was quoted as saying at the time.

Iran has been ratcheting up its military rhetoric against the United States following the signing of a nuclear accord with global powers.

Senior officials have mocked the Obama administration and accused it of falsely claiming that a military option against Iran is plausible.

“The Western media are mocking at the U.S. for speaking of ‘on the table options (against Iran)’ because the U.S. always utters some words without the ability to materialize them,” Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Naval Cmdr. Ali Fadavi was quoted as saying by the country’s state-run press.

Iran is “ready to give such a powerful response to the slightest move of the U.S. that it won’t be able to make any other moves,” Fadavi said.

The military leader said that “Iranian Armed Forces are now at the highest level of preparedness,” and that “only the dead body of the American troops realizes the power of the Islamic Revolution.”

Iranian and Russian forces have also stepped up their military coordination.

Two Russian warships arrived in northern Iran over the weekend to hold a series of war games with an Iranian destroyer, missile-launching ships, and 200 Iranian naval personnel.

The countries have inked arms deals and have vowed to increase their military relationship.

Michael Rubin, a former Pentagon adviser and expert on rogue regimes, said the nuclear accord has empowered Iran and encouraged its hostile activities.

Under the parameters of the deal, restrictions on Iran’s ballistic missile program will be lifted. The deal also will permit Iran to import and export military hardware and conventional weapons.

“How quaint. We stop sanctions on ballistic missiles to get a deal, basically finance the revolutionary guard and Iran’s shopping spree, and they turn around and use it to bolster their deterrence against us,” Rubin said. “Of course, if they weren’t planning to cheat, they wouldn’t need to worry about last resort military action.”
This entry was posted in National Security and tagged Iran,Military, Russia. Bookmark the permalink.

Iran to Fire Missiles in War Drills | Washington Free Beacon


===========================================================
Top General: Iran to Conduct Missile Tests on Schedule




August 12, 2015 - 17:45
TEHRAN (Tasnim) - Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces Major General Hassan Firouzabadi announced Wednesday that the country’s missile tests will be carried out on schedule, according to plans endorsed by Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei.

Tasnim News Agency - Top General: Iran to Conduct Missile Tests on Schedule

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## Godman

Tomyris said:


> iran could export ballistic and cruise missile with a maximum worn a 300km but no more



Iran is not a member of the MTCR, so they can export any missile they want

Missile Technology Control Regime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Aramagedon

Seven minutes to hit tel Aviv:

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## yavar

رزمایش تخصصی موشکی تا پایان سال برگزار می‌شود





پوردستان ادامه داد: آبان و آذر نیز دومین رزمایش نزاجا در شرق کشور برگزار می‌شود و یک رزمایش تخصصی موشکی طبق زمان‌بندی ستاد کل تا پایان سال اجرا می‌شود.

وی این اظهارات را در پاسخ به سوالی در خصوص درخواست نمایندگان مجلس برای برگزاری رزمایش موشکی گفته است.​
امیر پوردستان خبر داد رزمایش تخصصی موشکی تا پایان سال برگزار می‌شود/ اجرای 6 رزمایش توسط نیروی زمینی

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## yavar

رزمایش موشکی سپاه و وزارت دفاع براساس برنامه‌های مصوب اجرایی شود/ وزارت دفاع تست موشکی را عملیاتی سازد

خبرگزاری فارس متن کامل بیانیه نمایندگان مجلس برای برگزاری رزمایش موشکی را منتشر کرد.
به گزارش خبرنگار پارلمانی خبرگزاری فارس، ۲۰۴ نفر از نمایندگان مجلس شورای اسلامی با صدور بیانیه‌ای خطاب به سردار سرلشکر سیدحسن فیروزآبادی رئیس ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح خواستار برگزاری رزمایش‌های موشکی شدند.

متن کامل این بیانیه به شرح زیر است:

سردار سرلشکر بسیجی دکتر فیروزآبادی

ریاست محترم ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح

سلام‌علیکم

ما امضا‌کنندگان، نمایندگان ملت بزرگ ایران از حضرتعالی درخواست می‌نماییم که بر اساس تأکید ریاست محترم جمهوری، بیانیه وزارت امور خارجه و بیانات تیم مذاکره‌کننده، این نکته را که «قطعنامه الزام‌آور نیست» جدی گرفته و قوت و اقتدار نیروهای مسلح را چون همیشه در معرض دید همگان قرار دهید تا ابهامات نابجای دگراندیشان در عمل مرتفع گردد.

۱- با عنایت به فتوای صریح رهبر معظم انقلاب اسلامی ساخت کلاهک هسته‌ای در دستور کار جمهوری اسلامی ایران نبوده، نیست و نخواهد بود و قدرت موشکی جمهوری اسلامی ایران با توجه به تجربه تلخ هشت سال جنگ تحمیلی با هدف بازدارندگی دفاعی است.

۲- موشک‌های جمهوری اسلامی ایران برای حمل کلاهک هسته‌ای طراحی نگردیده و نخواهد گردید و با توجه به این اصل محدودیت‌بردار نمی‌باشد.

۳- تست موشکی را وزارت دفاع با رعایت مفاد بندهای ۱ و ۲ عملیاتی سازد.

۴- رزمایش موشکی سپاه و وزارت دفاع بر اساس برنامه‌های پیش‌بینی‌شده و مصوب، اجرایی گردد.​
اختصاصی‌فارس/متن کامل بیانیه ۲۰۴ نماینده درباره رزمایش‌‌های موشکی رزمایش موشکی سپاه و وزارت دفاع براساس برنامه‌های مصوب اجرایی شود/ وزارت دفاع تست موشکی را عملیاتی سازد

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> increasing range



در حال کار بر روی افزایش *دقت* موشکها هستیم

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> در حال کار بر روی افزایش *دقت* موشکها هستیم



new video he saying we have already done it .


Iran Gen Dehghan on ballistic missile program Destructive power tactical features continuing electronic warfare increasing range accuracy of missiles

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## yavar

Iran the visit of parliament members to exhibition of Islamic Republic missile capabilities

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## yavar

Iran SRBM "Fateh-313" ballistic missile high precision-guided with range of 500 KM






*Iran Gen Dehghan defense minister speech Friday Prayer about missile power of Islamic Republic*






*Iran Gen Amirali Hajizadeh commander aerospace division IRGC to launch massive missile maneuver soon*

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## yavar

Iran SRBM "Fateh-313" solid-fuel high precision-guided with range of 500 KM ballistic missile

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## Tomyris

yavar said:


> Iran SRBM "Fateh-313" solid-fuel high precision-guided with range of 500 KM ballistic missile


it is worn short, therefore extreme precision.  Is the ideal missile to Hizbullah and the resistance Yemeni  

with mass production of this missile, any US base in the region will be brought to our for a massive and rapid attack.

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## Hack-Hook

yavar said:


> Iran SRBM "Fateh-313" solid-fuel high precision-guided with range of 500 KM ballistic missile


good but honestly I believe it need more development . it didn't exactly hit the target. to me it seems 30-40 m off the target

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## The Last of us

JEskandari said:


> good but honestly I believe it need more development . it didn't exactly hit the target. to me it seems 30-40 m off the target
> View attachment 249236



lol dude, you are just assuming that is target.

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## Hack-Hook

The Last of us said:


> lol dude, you are just assuming that is target.


That structure is target . What you think it is, A shelter ?
Look at all previous footage of fateh missile test the target was always at center of the picture.

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## The Last of us

JEskandari said:


> That structure is target . What you think it is, A shelter ?
> Look at all previous footage of fateh missile test the target was always at center of the picture.



Once again, you are assuming. Don' act like your judgement has to be 100% factual. The bulge could be anything. There is no indicator it is the target.

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## Hack-Hook

The Last of us said:


> Once again, you are assuming. Don' act like your judgement has to be 100% factual. The bulge could be anything. There is no indicator it is the target.


The bulge is a structure and its just 30-40 meter of were the missile landed in open field . There is only one conclusion that was target and the missile missed it . So what you say I still believe it need some more fine tuning.

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## The Last of us

JEskandari said:


> The bulge is a structure and its just 30-40 meter of were the missile landed in open field . There is only one conclusion that was target and the missile missed it . So what you say I still believe it need some more fine tuning.



I am not saying the missile is ready or not ready. I am just saying you're making assumptions. To me it just looks like a random bulge. No indicator whatsoever it was an intended target. Furthermore, how are you coming to the conclusion that bulge is 30-40 meter away from the strike?

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## Hack-Hook

The Last of us said:


> I am not saying the missile is ready or not ready. I am just saying you're making assumptions. To me it just looks like a random bulge. No indicator whatsoever it was an intended target. Furthermore, how are you coming to the conclusion that bulge is 30-40 meter away from the strike?


Well I estimated like previous test the bulding was 1-2m long and had a length of approximately 8-10m.

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## The Last of us

JEskandari said:


> Well I estimated like previous test the bulding was 1-2m long and had a length of approximately 8-10m.



Sorry dadash, until new higher quality pictures are released, I can't say I agree with you. Let's wait and see if we'll see any footage from test from different angles etc.

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## Tomyris

JEskandari said:


> good but honestly I believe it need more development . it didn't exactly hit the target. to me it seems 30-40 m off the target
> View attachment 249236


to show you? why you said he has not reach the target of 30 to 40 master? the gap and large enough


The Last of us said:


> lol dude, you are just assuming that is target.



thou is a proof that the weapons and 100% reliable, so I supose it it asked for evidence, and you, you are on or you supose? brings us the proof, thank you

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## The Last of us

As I thought, this was no target. If you look at the video below, the so called "target" only appears after the missile impacts. I said it could just be caused by debris flung outwards after missile impact.

Look at 00:35

رونمایی از موشک فاتح 313

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## mohsen

no longer underwater launched. but it goes underwater!

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## xenon54 out

mohsen said:


> no longer underwater launched. but it goes underwater!
> View attachment 249302

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## Tomyris

xenon54 said:


>


Turkey occupies on thy case, if your anything to say then stopped troll


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## xenon54 out

Tomyris said:


> Turkey occupies on thy case, if your anything to say then stopped troll


 it was just a question, never seen such missile that first dives underwater and then takes off.

Plus, you better stop using google translate first before calling people troll without a reason, its ridiculous.

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## Tomyris

xenon54 said:


> it was just a question, never seen such missile that first dives underwater and then takes off.
> 
> Plus, you better stop using google translate first before calling people troll without a reason, its ridiculous.


if I use google translators is because I can not speak English.

against by your question you can ask the user without provocation. In any case, what you have seen it is a missile fired from under the sea. You could be worth as much as you criticized the evidence exists


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## Srinivas

Tomyris said:


> if I use google translators is because I can not speak English.
> 
> against by your question you can ask the user without provocation. In any case, what you have seen it is a missile fired from under the sea. You could be worth as much as you criticized the evidence exists



Are you the girl in the pic/dp/ avatar pic ??


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## xenon54 out

Tomyris said:


> if I use google translators is because I can not speak English.
> 
> against by your question you can ask the user without provocation. In any case, what you have seen it is a missile fired from under the sea. You could be worth as much as you criticized the evidence exists


First of all there is no provocation just a question, i used a gif to do so, big deal...

Secondly, the missile is clearly not underwater fired but launched from the boat, it dives underwater and then takes off as @mohsen mentioned, and my question is why it is first diving and then taking off.


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## Shahryar Hedayati

Srinivas said:


> Are you the girl in the pic/dp/ avatar pic ??


*Claudia Lynx*

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## mohsen

xenon54 said:


> First of all there is no provocation just a question, i used a gif to do so, big deal...
> 
> Secondly, the missile is clearly not underwater fired but launched from the boat, it dives underwater and then takes off as @mohsen mentioned, and my question is why it is first diving and then taking off.


2 possible answers:
1.missile travels underwater to stay out of radar and threats and then comes out in the proper distance.
2.It's still underwater launched, yet regardless of the angle of fire, missile can maneuver to obtain its path.(my guess)

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## yavar



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## xenon54 out

mohsen said:


> 2 possible answers:
> 1.missile travels underwater to stay out of radar and threats and then comes out in the proper distance.
> 2.It's still underwater launched, yet regardless of the angle of fire, missile can maneuver to obtain its path.(my guess)


I thought it might be because the launcher angle on the boat is too horizontal so it dives down and lauches from a proper angle but then again why not making the laucher vertical in the first place.


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## scythian500

JEskandari said:


> The bulge is a structure and its just 30-40 meter of were the missile landed in open field . There is only one conclusion that was target and the missile missed it . So what you say I still believe it need some more fine tuning.


do u really think Iran publishes such a failure in hitting target while talking about the precision of the missile!?

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## Hack-Hook

scythian500 said:


> do u really think Iran publishes such a failure in hitting target while talking about the precision of the missile!?


Its not a failoure . It is just a missile rushed and need some fine tuning. 

By the way we already posted videos of missile not launching at all . Also several years ago a country like Russia also posted video of one of their topol-m missiles fail to launch in front of putin . This is not embarassing . I believe denying the obvious is a lot more embarassing .



mohsen said:


> 2 possible answers:
> 1.missile travels underwater to stay out of radar and threats and then comes out in the proper distance.
> 2.It's still underwater launched, yet regardless of the angle of fire, missile can maneuver to obtain its path.(my guess)


another scenario is that the missile main engine is too powerful for the small boat and destabilise it so they decided to start the main engine when its a little farther from the boat . Just like airplanes that they release the missile and then the missile engine start .

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## The Last of us

JEskandari said:


> Its not a failoure . It is just a missile rushed and need some fine tuning.
> 
> By the way we already posted videos of missile not launching at all . Also several years ago a country like Russia also posted video of one of their topol-m missiles fail to launch in front of putin . This is not embarassing . I believe denying the obvious is a lot more embarassing .



But I already posted video of the launch...what you referred to as the "target" just appears after the missile impact. It was probably something caused by rocks/debris etc hitting the ground. Look at the video again carefully.

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## scythian500

JEskandari said:


> Its not a failoure . It is just a missile rushed and need some fine tuning.
> 
> By the way we already posted videos of missile not launching at all . Also several years ago a country like Russia also posted video of one of their topol-m missiles fail to launch in front of putin . This is not embarassing . I believe denying the obvious is a lot more embarassing .
> 
> another scenario is that the missile main engine is too powerful for the small boat and destabilise it so they decided to start the main engine when its a little farther from the boat . Just like airplanes that they release the missile and then the missile engine start .


maybe I said it wrong... I mean... Iran publishes a ceremony of unveiling a very advanced carbon-fiber, composite solid fuel missile with new sensors and EMPHASIZE on its PRECISION as a PIN-POINT missile... now, If what you say is true... then they might be so stupid to publish a video to prove the precision of their missile while it hit the target 40 meters away!!

Don't you think the missile in fact hit the target accurately, otherwise, they would n't publish it as a proof for the precision of the new missile...

It is like I claim my car goes as speedy as 300 km/h and then I publish a video to prove it... and in my video the speedometer shows only 200 km/h....!!

do you get my point?

btw, it is always a tradition in Iranian armament show ups to show something low quality to just deliver the message of possible lethality to the enemy while keeping the door of suspicion open to surprising possibilities...

Iran has no export market for its missiles yet due to sanctions... so, there is no need for high quality catalogs and videos... There is no costumer... Iran only shows a bit of it to create the sense of fear and unknownness.. you know how this technic works? It always works in favor of the issuing country... no enemy is stupid to say "BS.. There is a good %50 possibility that the missile is not accurate or lethal as Iran claims..",.... in fact, enemies take the other side seriously... saying "What if another %50 is true.."... this is why, Iran scores and creates the desired sense of fear and lethality while putting the enemy in confusion...

It is like I put a pen on the back of your head...pretending it to be a pistol and I'm gonna kill you if you move...while you don't know if it is a true pistol or not, you %99 of times buy my claim and take the most extreme possibility as credible..

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## mohsen

scythian500 said:


> maybe I said it wrong... I mean... Iran publishes a ceremony of unveiling a very advanced carbon-fiber, composite solid fuel missile with new sensors and EMPHASIZE on its PRECISION as a PIN-POINT missile... now, If what you say is true... then they might be so stupid to publish a video to prove the precision of their missile while it hit the target 40 meters away!!
> 
> Don't you think the missile in fact hit the target accurately, otherwise, they would n't publish it as a proof for the precision of the new missile...
> 
> It is like I claim my car goes as speedy as 300 km/h and then I publish a video to prove it... and in my video the speedometer shows only 200 km/h....!!
> 
> do you get my point?
> 
> btw, it is always a tradition in Iranian armament show ups to show something low quality to just deliver the message of possible lethality to the enemy while keeping the door of suspicion open to surprising possibilities...
> 
> Iran has no export market for its missiles yet due to sanctions... so, there is no need for high quality catalogs and videos... There is no costumer... Iran only shows a bit of it to create the sense of fear and unknownness.. you know how this technic works? It always works in favor of the issuing country... no enemy is stupid to say "BS.. There is a good %50 possibility that the missile is not accurate or lethal as Iran claims..",.... in fact, enemies take the other side seriously... saying "What if another %50 is true.."... this is why, Iran scores and creates the desired sense of fear and lethality while putting the enemy in confusion...
> 
> It is like I put a pen on the back of your head...pretending it to be a pistol and I'm gonna kill you if you move...while you don't know if it is a true pistol or not, you %99 of times buy my claim and take the most extreme possibility as credible..


are you suggesting that defense crew pointed the camera at a wrong or some random location? missile almost went out of the scene!
you better distinguish the difference between Iran and some people from Iran (with *different *motives).
anyway, we can say camera man was crazy! and the director has added those smokes by 3DMAX for fun! also Hamase is a stealth drone!

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## mohsen

گفت‌وگوی خواندنی با دکتر کامران دانشجو،‌دانشمند موشکی
*نقش طعمه را برای افشای شبکه ترور دانشمندان هسته ای را بازی‌ کردم/ روایت تلخ سقوط رشد علمی در دو سال اخیر/ تمام موشک های بالای ۳۰۰ کیلومتر ما تحریم است/ بودجه موشکی در دو سال اخیر کاهش یافته *


> ساعت ۶ صبح با منزلش تماس می‌گیرند و فرد ناشناس خود را معاون امنیت وزارت اطلاعات معرفی می‌کند. پس از یک رفت‌وبرگشت برای اطمینان از هویت تماس‌گیرنده، به او اعلام می‌شود که تروریستی با یک اسلحه دارای صداخفه‌کن، در پارکینگ منزل و روبه‌روی آسانسور منتظر خروج او از منزل است. به مأمور اطلاعاتی می‌گوید که شما که این فرد را شناسایی کرده‌اید چرا او را دستگیر نمی‌کنید؟ پاسخ می‌شنود که ما می‌توانیم هم اکنون او را دستگیر کنیم ولی این مسأله موجب می‌شود که شبکه ترور مخفی بماند. آیا شما حاضرید که نقش طعمه را برای دستگیری شبکه ترور بازی‌کنید. پاسخ وزیر علوم وقت مثبت است و این چنین بیش از ۴ ماه زندگی امنیتی کامران دانشجو آغاز می‌شود.





> حالا چون حاشیه تبدیل به متن شده و متن به حاشیه رفته، رشد سیزده برابری متوقف شده است. اگر ما با همان رشد جلو می‌رفتیم، الان باید رتبه یازدهم می‌بودیم و تا سال ۹۶ و ۹۷ تک رقمی می‌شدیم، اما در بهترین وضعیتش در جا زدیم. چند آمار به شما می‌دهم. در سال ۲۰۰۵ رشد علمی ما ۳۲ درصد، در سال ۲۰۰۷، ۳۱ درصد، در سال ۲۰۰۸، ۳۱ درصد، در سال ۲۰۰۹، ۶/۲۳ درصد، در سال ۲۰۱۰، ۲۳ درصد، در سال ۲۰۱۱، ۳۲ درصد است، اما در سال ۲۰۱۳، این رشد ناگهان افت کرده و حتی منفی ۴۸/۲ درصد می‌شود
> 
> رشد علمی کشور ماست که به منهای ۴۸/۲ رسیده است. این ۴۸/۲ ـ درصد هم مال وزارت علوم نیست، بلکه وزارت بهداشت جور وزارت علوم را کشیده است. وزارت بهداشت به همان روند سابق ادامه داده و جور وزارت علوم را کشیده است، والا اگر فقط وزارت علوم بود که قضیه افت تولید علم خیلی بدتر از این‌ها می‌شد. آمار چند رشته را که وابسته به وزارت علوم است برایتان می‌گویم. کشاورزی منفی ۳/۱۱ درصد است.





> می‌گویند آقای صالحی نامه‌ای نوشته و گفته است آقای عباسی دانشمند هسته‌ای نیست و صرفاً یکی دو تا قرارداد با سازمان انرژی هسته‌ای داشته است.
> 
> همین را بیایند بگویند. او بگوید و آقای عباسی هم جواب این ادعا را بدهد. یکطرفه به قاضی رفتن که صحیح نیست. من آقای صالحی را هم دوست دارم. خودم چندان تخصصی در این زمینه ندارم، ولی دوستان آقای عباسی را یکی از دانشمندترین افراد هسته‌ای در ایران می‌شناسند.
> 
> چرا دشمن نمی‌خواست آقای صالحی را بزند؟ ان‌شاءالله که هیچ وقت نخواهد بزند. ایشان هم دانشمند است. نمی‌گویم نیست، ولی می‌گویم آقای فریدون عباسی را بیاورید که از بعد فنی با آقای صالحی بحث کند. آقای فؤاد ایزدی را بیاورید. افرادی مثل این‌ها را بیاورید، آقای جلیلی بیایند، تیم مذاکره‌کننده هم بیاید بنشیند و تلویزیون زنده پخش کند. سؤال شود و جواب بدهند چرا هسته‌ای به موشکی گره خورده است؟ برایش پاسخ دارند؟! آن‌ها هم حتماً پاسخ دارند. هر دو طرف پاسخ‌هایشان را بدهند، ببینیم ملت کدام پاسخ را می‌پذیرد. چرا امریکا برای بازرسی از جاهای نامتعارف برنامه می‌گذارد؟ کارشناسان نظرشان را در این زمینه بگویند تیم مذاکره‌کننده هم بگوید که چرا؟

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## yavar

*Iran Negahe Yek interview DM Gen Dehghan "we will manufacture missiles proportional to Threats"*


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## Arminkh

mohsen said:


> no longer underwater launched. but it goes underwater!
> View attachment 249302


Is that the hoot?


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## mohsen

Arminkh said:


> Is that the hoot?


No, it's the mysterious missile which IRGC partially showed in their latest wargame.

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> No, it's the mysterious missile which IRGC partially showed in their latest wargame.


That missile clearly have the ability to be launched underwater I guess they launched it so because we currently dont have a submarine which is capable of missile launch.


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## yavar

*Iran company pipe Gostar Esfarāyen production of casing and tubing steel seamless tubes and pipes*






*Iran "Nasr" Air-Launched Cruise Missile موشک کروز نصر هواپایه*

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## Surenas

Sorena Sattari, Iranian VP for Science and Technology, escorted by Russian president examines new cruise missiles:







Seems like Iranian-Russian military ties after the deal will grow significantly.

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## The Last of us

I hope Iran managed to get substantial amount of TOT from the Russian in aircraft technology. It will not be easy, but if Iran establishes a strategic relations with them, it will be possible.

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## Tomyris

Surenas said:


> Sorena Sattari, Iranian VP for Science and Technology, escorted by Russian president examines new cruise missiles:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like Iranian-Russian military ties after the deal will grow significantly.



I had just seen.


The Last of us said:


> I hope Iran managed to get substantial amount of TOT from the Russian in aircraft technology. It will not be easy, but if Iran establishes a strategic relations with them, it will be possible.


do not worry my brother, the strategic relationship has long existed, russia has enormously need iran, russia will provide significant technology has provided iran but to make great offer, without wanting to repeat myself, MIG and soccieté in crisis and Vladimir Putin said he would do everything to save her, iran may propose to russia a massive purchase of Mig-35 with a technology transfer and local production so assimilates iran a lot of technology we can develop an Iranian quality fighter.

mig working on a 5th generation fighter, and the crisis with Iran can take part in this project and jointly develop the Russian-Iranian joint hunter.

but if you want my opinion, iran should not concentrate on these efforts vloppement of a hunter who will be too expensive to develop, iran and israel as deverait to develop a high-tech society for electronic component, the ELBIT society and most advance if we developed a similar society, we can equip our entire army and purchased equipment with high trechnolgie component that will not be known for our enemy, imagine that Iran bought the su-t50 pakfa and we have powerful component, the same will be a single Russian fighter will not be what would be its true power


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## kurup

xenon54 said:


> it was just a question, never seen such missile that first dives underwater and then takes off.
> 
> Plus, you better stop using google translate first before calling people troll without a reason, its ridiculous.



This is a Russian SLCM test .






Iran looks like adopted the same method to test their SLCM .... less risky .

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## xenon54 out

kurup said:


> This is a Russian SLCM test .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran looks like adopted the same method to test their SLCM .... less risky .


This one is launched under water but the Iranian one is lauched from boat as it seems.


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## kurup

JEskandari said:


> That missile clearly have the ability to be launched underwater I guess they launched it so because we currently dont have a submarine which is capable of missile launch.



BINGO .

Or they do not want to test an untested missile from a submarine ..... it will be risky if anything goes wrong .

AFAIK , Iran has Kilo SSK ..... don't they have missile firing capability ??



xenon54 said:


> This one is launched under water but the Iranian one is lauched from boat as it seems.



If you watch the video , you can see that the missile is launched from a torpedo tube placed above water line .

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## xenon54 out

kurup said:


> If you watch the video , you can see that the missile is launched from a torpedo tube placed above water line .


Now the Torpedo Tube is the key word, thx.


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## kurup

xenon54 said:


> Now the Torpedo Tube is the key word, thx.



OK .

But I don't see any difference in the way Iranians tested it either .

It is a safe way to test an SLCM untill the technology matures and you have confidence to test it from a sub .

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## xenon54 out

kurup said:


> OK .
> 
> But I don't see any difference in the way Iranians tested it either .
> 
> It is a safe way to test an SLCM untill the technology matures and you have confidence to test it from a sub .


It stated to make sense to when you said the Torpedo Tube is on the boat, i had something on mind like a anti ship missile lauched on surface that first dives and then takes off which didnt make sense to me.


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## Hack-Hook

kurup said:


> BINGO .
> 
> Or they do not want to test an untested missile from a submarine ..... it will be risky if anything goes wrong .
> 
> AFAIK , Iran has Kilo SSK ..... don't they have missile firing capability ??
> 
> 
> 
> If you watch the video , you can see that the missile is launched from a torpedo tube placed above water line .


Yes we have those kilos but Kilo subs originally were not missile launch capable . Later they get an upgrade that made the capable of launching missiles.

We overhauled and upgraded one of those subs but I dont knew which upgrade we made on the sub and if it has the capabilities to launch any missile.


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## Serpentine

xenon54 said:


> It stated to make sense to when you said the Torpedo Tube is on the boat, i had something on mind like a anti ship missile lauched on surface that first dives and then takes off which didnt make sense to me.



The primary reason, imo, is that we don't have a proper launching platform for underwater tests for missiles with this size yet and perhaps they didn't want to use the Kilo submarines, because if the test went wrong, it would significantly damage the sub.

I remember in first days that video was revealed, there was a broad speculation about launch platform, some said it's a newly bought submarine, some said it's a static underwater launch system,etc.

But that doesn't change anything though. The fact that the missile goes underwater and comes out still out proves that it is indeed an SLCM and can be launched from underwater too.

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## Arminkh

@SOHEIL

Soheil! you are famous! Yuzi Robin has used one of your sketch with your name on it in his presentation in DC this year! (ma ro az in be bad tahvil begitri ha!)







Here is the actual clip:






Jokes aside, maybe Uzi is wandering around in this forum or maybe @500 is working for him!

@Daneshmand @haman10 @Serpentine @yavar @The Last of us @2800

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## The Last of us

I watched that video twice and I can't believe I had not caught onto to that

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## Arminkh

The Last of us said:


> I watched that video twice and I can't believe I had not caught onto to that


I would sue Uzi for copy right!

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## Daneshmand

Arminkh said:


> @SOHEIL
> 
> Soheil! you are famous! Yuzi Robin has used one of your sketch with your name on it in his presentation in DC this year! (ma ro az in be bad tahvil begitri ha!)
> 
> View attachment 250517
> 
> 
> Here is the actual clip:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jokes aside, maybe Uzi is wandering around in this forum or maybe @500 is working for him!
> 
> @Daneshmand @haman10 @Serpentine @yavar @The Last of us @2800



That is a big thing. Really. An Elite PDF member's work is being quoted by tech intel communities in DC. This deserves its own thread.

@Arminkh you should really do it. Obviously @SOHEIL himself is too modest to do it on his own behalf. Please create a thread on the issue. And don't forget to invite 500 as well.

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## The Last of us

Arminkh said:


> I would sue Uzi for copy right!



No Dadash, I would not do anything which may dissuade him from continuing to give talks on Iranian missile program. I really enjoy his speeches. He may get freaked out and not give talks anymore

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## Arminkh

The Last of us said:


> No Dadash, I would not do anything which may dissuade him from continuing to give talks on Iranian missile program. I really enjoy his speeches. He may get freaked out and not give talks anymore


I agree. Yes he is very respectful towards Iran's progress.

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## Blackmoon

Qader anti-Ship

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## yavar

*Iran Gen Salami our ballistic missiles capabilities is such that only maybe Russia & US have such of*

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## SOHEIL



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## scythian500

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 257501


???


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## Shahryar Hedayati

scythian500 said:


> ???


Solid rocket static test , Probably Fateh or Fajr-5 ...

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## HAIDER

Shahryar Hedayati said:


> Solid rocket static test , Probably Fateh or Fajr-5 ...



It has US flag....


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## Shahryar Hedayati

HAIDER said:


> It has US flag....

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## SOHEIL

HAIDER said:


> It has US flag....



It was an example bro 



SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 257501



*F-333*


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## HAIDER

SOHEIL said:


> It was an example bro
> 
> 
> 
> *F-333*


sorry my fault....

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## Siavash

Shahryar Hedayati said:


> Solid rocket static test , Probably Fateh or Fajr-5 ...


Similar HBM strain gauge equipt load cells and its engine test platforms we have in Parchin! They use test platforms build in Shah era in Parchin for this purpose and expanded it.

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## بلندر

Sepah ( IRGC) tested new missile in silence ...






بازدید رهبر معظم انقلاب از نمایشگاه دستاوردهای هوافضای سپاه - صفحه 23 - اخبار نظامی - Military.ir


ready for war ...

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## The Last of us

As expected, this is a 1500-2000 Km range missile with little winglets on its warhead for accurate guidance.

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## بلندر

The Last of us said:


> As expected, this is a 1500-2000 Km range missile with little winglets on its warhead for accurate guidance.



I'm not an expert but look like this is solid fuel ballistic missile .... maybe this is the carrier killer that they tested in three years ago ...

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## The Last of us

بلندر said:


> I'm not an expert but look like this is solid fuel ballistic missile .... maybe this is the carrier killer that they tested in three years ago ...



No dadash, this is liquid fuelled. However, this can apply this technology to sejill as well. Regardless of it being liquid fuelled or not, this is still a accurate beast

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## yavar

*Iran IRGC new missile and underground ballistic missiles mobile launchers tunnels and silos*

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## scythian500

AALA HUSSAIN KAIKAUS said:


> plz make nukes fast i'd like to see the persian empire.i'd even volunteer if deemed fit for service.even though my eyesight is fucked
> 
> coolest thing about iran is the names.like YA ALI ROCKETS and IMAM HUSSAN (A.S) UNIVERSITY etc.i'd like to see the persian empire.i'd even volunteer if deemed fit for service.even though my eye sight is fucked
> 
> Is it possible to make nukes covertly?


thanks for your love for Iran my friend..the truth is that Iran already is a nuclear weapon threshold nation and can produce nukes instantly only if she is attacked first as this gives Iran enough pretext to go nuclear...

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## haman10

AALA HUSSAIN KAIKAUS said:


> Thanks.Dude i'd like to interact more with Iran.Get to know why they resist,What is their binding to this religion.I'd like to learn more about faith and Roullah and Ali Khameni.Any thing non Iranian shias could do to help Iran?


Dude all you can do as a shia muslim for Iran is to study hard and to become a scientifically progressive muslim . other than that , we also need you to be safe . 

be safe my friend , we love you and we hold you very dear .

may allah be with you bro .

respects

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## scythian500

AALA HUSSAIN KAIKAUS said:


> Thanks.Dude i'd like to interact more with Iran.Get to know why they resist,What is their binding to this religion.I'd like to learn more about faith and Roullah and Ali Khameni.Any thing non Iranian shias could do to help Iran?


Non Iranian Shias can help Iran and Shia in general when they educate themselves well and before everybody and then become scientists and engineers and then become No.1 in each and every aspect of life...A Shia can help Iran when they educate others about the misunderstandings about Iran and Shia in general... Shia must be as good as what Allah, his prophet and his Ahl el beit expects us to be...

As haman said, be safe too... we are already little in numbers... Iran has little population growth rate unfortunately... you can make up for that in Pakistan...

become a scientist or doctor or a good engineer...make good money... make more Shia but first class, educated and Momen shia kids who as Shia says are man of logic and love......

for now since you are here, go and enjoy some of our shia taste:

Iranian High Tech Industries
Made in Iran
This paradise is called Iran

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## yavar

*Iran "Emad" ballistic missile with high precision guidance and control systems till reach its target*

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## Tomyris

yavar said:


> *Iran "Emad" ballistic missile with high precision guidance and control systems till reach its target*



how the worn? is the accuracy?  how and potential of mass production?


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## yavar



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## yavar

*Iran "Emad" ballistic missile high precision which can be guided & controlled until it hits target *

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## yavar

There is also a missile known as the Emad-1 MRBM, with 1700km range, 500m accuracy, and 750kg payload. It is a variation of the Shahab-3 MRBM. It is Iran’s first maneuvering reentry vehicle equipped system (to improve accuracy), liquid propelled, equipped with SATNAV, and reported to be slated for deployment sometime after 2016. To date, there are no indications testing has occurred. Note: The CEP is a dramatic increase over the Shahab-3’s CEP of approx. 2,000m.


http://csis.org/files/publication/141007_Iran_Rocket_Missile_forces.pdf


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## Tomyris

2000m is a lot. 500m and it is not précis.qui them caratéristique the accuracy of baistique Russian missile, American and Israeli?

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## yavar

Tomyris said:


> 2000m is a lot. 500m and it is not précis.qui them caratéristique the accuracy of baistique Russian missile, American and Israeli?





yavar said:


> back in 2013 and 2014
> 
> خطای موشک‌های بالستیک را به ۲ متر رساندیم/ بکارگیری لیزر در هدایت موشک‌ها
> Iran Ballistic missile accuracy has reach up to 2 meter / use of laser-guided missiles
> سردار دهقان با بیان اینکه برای این اتفاق در 3 حوزه به شدت تمرکز داریم به تشریح این حوزه‌ها پرداخت و گفت:‌ یکی در حوزه دریا و در بحث زیرسطحی‌، سطحی و همچنین موشک‌ها و پرتابه‌هاست که در این زمینه می‌تواند به کار گرفته شود.Brigadier General Hossein Dehghan stating that what has happened is we strongly focus on three areas . outlines these areas and said the sea area in subsurface, surface and it,s missiles is and different type of launching the missile from subsurface, surface that could be used in this context.
> 
> خبرگزاری تسنیم - خطای موشک‌های بالستیک را به 2 متر رساندیم/ بکارگیری لیزر در هدایت موشک‌ها
> 
> Iran's SSMs (Surface to Surface Missiles)

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## scythian500

سردار دهقان در ادامه به دستاوردهای در حوزه موشک‌های زمین به زمین اشاره کرد و اظهار داشت: به این نقطه رسیده‌ایم که دقت ثابت موشک‌های با برد بلندمان به حدی بالا رفته که می‌توانیم نقطه‌زنی کنیم. این موضوع در بحث موشک‌های بالستیک، تکنولوژی خیلی بالایی را می‌طلبد زیرا در موشک‌های بالستیک نسبت به برد، موشک‌ها درصدی از خطا را می‌پذیرند.

وی ادامه داد: ما در یک مرحله خطای این موشک‌ها را 20 متر و امروز آن را با 2 متر به نتیجه رسانده‌ایم و انشاءالله خطای آن را به صفر هم خواهیم رساند.

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## Aramagedon

*Thousands Iranian missiles are ready to be launched from underground bases once the Iranian leader order to do so*

Islamic Republic of Iran has for the first time released the footage showcasing one of its hundreds underground missile bases.

The Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) was permitted to enter one of the missile bases located 500 meters below the ground and shoot the video depicting the base for the first time.

“Iran’s missiles, capable of flying at various ranges, are ready to be launched from underground bases once the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei orders to do so,” IRINN TV quoted the Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh as saying Oct. 14.

به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری *فارس*، نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی برای اولین بار اجازه تصویربرداری از تونل های زیرزمینی سپاه که موشک های بالستیک دوربرد در آن نگهداری می شوند را صادر کرد و صداوسیمای جمهوری اسلامی ایران نیز فیلم آن را پخش کرد.

در این تونل های پیچ در پیچ تعداد زیادی از موشک های دوربرد -که در این تصاویر موشک «قدر» است- دیده می شود.

موشک قدر ازجمله موشک های بالستیک و دوربرد سپاه است که در 2 نوع F و H تا کنون ارائه شده که نمونه اول، 2هزار و نمونه دوم 1700 کیلومتر برد دارد.

موشک «سجیل» نیز از دیگر موشک‌های مهم و بالستیک سپاه با برد 2هزار کیلومتر است.

البته سردار حاجی زاده در خلال این بازدید گفته است که موشک های دوربرد نسل جدید سپاه از سپاه آینده جایگزین نسل های قبلی خواهد شد.

وی همچنین گفته است که نیروی هوافضای سپاه در کمتر شهری هست که ایگاه موشکی نداشته باشد.

بنا بر آنچه اعلام شده، برخی از این تونل ها در اعماق 500 متری در زیر کوههای بلند حفر شده‌اند.




































فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه:

*موشک‌های ایران آماده پرتاب ومنتظر دستور فرمانده کل‌قوا هستیم*

سردار حاجی زاده گفت: پایگاه‌های زیرزمینی موشک‌های دوربرد جمهوری اسلامی ایران در همه استان‌ها و شهرهای این مرز و بوم مستقر و آماده، در عمق 500 متر زیر کوه‌های بلند قرار دارد.

سردار سرتیپ پاسدار امیرعلی حاجی
زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی که برای نخستین بار فقط به رسانه ملی اجازه تصویربرداری از یکی از پایگاه‌های موشکی در دل کوه را داد اظهارداشت: موشک‌ها در بردهای مختلف در همه پایگاه‌ها بر روی پرتابگر (لانچر) سوار، آماده پرتاب و دست‌ها بر روی ماشه است و فقط منتظر دستور فرمانده معظم کل قوا هستیم.

وی گفت: در مقابل جدید‌ترین و پیشرفته ترین نسل ماهواره‌ها و تجهیزات جاسوسی و تهاجمی دشمنان انقلاب اسلامی، کوچک‌ترین نگرانی نداریم.

حاجی زاده با اشاره به طراحی و ساخت انواع موشک‌های دوربرد، میان برد و کوتاه برد توسط متخصصان ایران اسلامی در وزارت دفاع و سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی تصریح کرد: این نمونه‌ای از انبوه پایگاه‌های موشکی کشور می‌باشد و از سال آینده نسل جدید و پیشرفته موشک‌های دوربرد سوخت مایع و جامد جایگزین تولیدات فعلی خواهد شد.

وی گفت: آنها که دل خوش به گزینه‌های روی میز خود هستند، تنها نگاهی به گزینه‌های زیر میز سپاهیان اسلام بیاندازند.

فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه افزود: توانایی و اقتدار ما، مانند کوه یخی است که بر آب شناور و تنها گوشه‌ای کوچک از آن روی آب عیان است.

سردار حاجی زاده تأکید کرد: به ملت ایران قول می‌دهم که کوچکترین تهدید و ناامنی از بیرون مرزها متوجه کشور نخواهد بود و مسئولان باید با قدرت تمام مقابل نفوذ دشمنان بایستند و هیچ سستی از خود نشان ندهند.

وی گفت: این عظمت و اقتدار موشکی که گوشه‌ای از آن را امروز جهان به چشم دید شرط لازم برای اقتدار کشور است، اما شرط کافی آن وحدت، یکدلی، ایستادگی و استکبارستیزی مردم و مسئولان است که می‌تواند تضمین کننده ثبات و امنیت کشور باشد.

فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه با بیان اینکه جمهوری اسلامی ایران در میان کشورهای ناامن از ثبات کامل برخوردار است گفت: این نتیجه تلاش شبانه روزی همه نیروی مسلح از سپاه، بسیج، ارتش و نیروی انتظامی است و ملت ایران مطمئن باشد دشمن هیچ کاری از پیش نمی‌برد.

وی تأکید کرد: ایران آغاز کننده هیچ جنگی نیست، اما اگر اشتباهی از بیگانه سربزند، پایگاه‌های موشکی از اعماق زمین مانند آتشفشان فوران می‌کند و این برای دشمن خانمان سوز است.

فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی در پایان از برگزاری رزمایش گسترده در آینده‌ای نزدیک خبر داد.

*Video*:

http://www.mehrnews.com/news/2940748/فیلم-شهر-موشکی-سپاه-۵۰۰-متر-زیرزمین

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## yavar



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## yavar



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## yavar

*رونمایی از نسل جدید سیستم‌های موشکی با بهره‌گیری از سوخت مایع و جامد در سال 95*





فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران گفت: در سال 95 نسل جدید و گسترده‌تر سیستم‌های موشکی که از سوخت مایع و جامد بهره می‌برند، رونمایی می‌شود تا دشمن متوجه بخشی از ظرفیت گسترده گزینه‌های زیرزمین ما شود

خبرگزاری تسنیم - رونمایی از نسل جدید سیستم‌های موشکی با بهره‌گیری از سوخت مایع و جامد در سال 95​

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## ANDROMEDA

Hello there
I'm here! I am a new user but old visitor! I have been visiting this forum for several month but finally I decided to sign up and trolling!( kidding, don't ban me!) and my English sucks! Get used to it!!

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## Siavash

AALA HUSSAIN KAIKAUS said:


> cant understand no farsi


google translation is good enough. I just did it and it conveys the message! Anyway the whole long text basically says a new generation of solid-liquid fueled missile will hit the super markets next year! You can lease one at rate of 0.9% if bring it back unscratched! otherwise buy one if you want to explode it! Saudi's get it free on request providing the GPS address and USA Guardian consent or UK parental consent!.

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## yavar

Unlike its predecessors, the new model is equipped with a re-entry vehicle which integrates a guidance system that controls four aerodynamic surfaces for endo-atmospheric flight, and thrusters which can adjust the vehicle’s

In order to gain higher precision, EMAD likely integrates inertial and satellite navigation systems with aerodynamic and propulsion control to guide the re-entry vehicle to its target. Potentially, with these capabilities also enable the reentry vehicle to dodge interceptors, posing a new challenge for missile defenses

Could Tehran’s EMAD Missile Outsmart Israel’s Arrow 3? | Defense Update:


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## yavar

*Iran liquid fuel medium range ballistic missile launched at night from mobile launcher TEL*

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## yavar

Emad: Iran’s New Ballistic Missile Amid The Nuclear Deal – Analysis

By Debalina Ghoshal*

Iran recently test-fired the ‘Emad’, a precision-guided medium-range surface-to-surface ballistic missile. The missile has a range of 1700 kms and a payload capacity of 750kgs. Any missile above a 500 kg payload is considered nuclear capable. Emad is liquid-fuelled but with improved accuracy and maneuverable re-entry vehicles for evading enemy defence systems. This improved accuracy is extremely important if Iran is to deliver a conventional payload. The missile is also reported to carry thrusters for course correction. Reports suggest that this missile is an improved version of the liquid-fuelled Shahab missiles.

The maneuverability is achieved by steering warheads that can perform last minute maneuvering even at the terminal phase. According to Iranian Defence Minister Hossein Dehghan, Emad is Iran’s first ever missile that can be guided and controlled until the missile hits the target. The missile’s survivability is enhanced by road mobility with the help of the Transporter Erector Launcher (TELs).

There have been reports that the Iranian Parliament has approved the nuclear deal with the US and that the deal has also been approved of by the Guardian Council of the Constitution. Ever since the deal was finalised in July 2015, Iranian hardliners have been apprehensive of the conventional arms embargo imposed on Iran – which also includes an embargo on the development of ballistic missiles.

One of the probable reasons why the missile was test-fired just prior to the approval of the nuclear deal was probably to prove a point that under no circumstance can the nuclear deal hinder Iran’s progress with its ballistic missile program. This is also clearly evident from Dehghan’s statement where he said, “We don’t ask anyone’s permission to enhance our defence power or missile capability and will firmly pursue our defence plans, particularly in the field of missile…Emad is one of the outstanding examples of this.”

Despite UNSC sanctions on the country since 2003, Iran has already progressed with its ballistic missile development program and its cruise missile development program. Earlier this year, Iran test-fired the Soumar, a sophisticated long-range cruise missile, while the nuclear negotiation process was ongoing. Both missiles are expected to enter service by 2016.

Furthermore, this year, Iran unveiled the extended range Fateh missiles that now have a range of 500kms. However, while Iran’s missile capabilities could put several of its adversaries at threat, Iran claims that its missile development is meant for its defence and is not aimed at any specific country. According to Dehghan, the missile would only add to peace and strategic stability in the region and also enables the country to display its technological prowess. Iran is also concentrating on solid-propelled ballistic missiles with a 2500km range, called the Sejjil missiles. Last year, Iran had also test-fired the Barani ballistic missiles which are capable of being fitted with Multiple Re-entry Vehicles.

Therefore, Iran is not only making progress with its missile systems but these missiles could be capable of evading enemy missile defence system. The ability of the missile to evade the ballistic missile defence systems of its adversaries could put the US’ European Phased Adaptive Approach (EPAA) system at threat. The US under the EPAA has decided to field its missile defence system and related components in NATO countries to be able to counter the Iranian ballistic missile threat.

While the new Iranian ballistic missile is a liquid fuel propelled missile – which is technically hazardous to prepare – many other states such as Russia and China have also concentrated on liquid-fuelled intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM).

This could be because in comparison to the solid-fuelled missiles, the liquid-fuelled missiles have a higher launch-weight to throw-weight ratio, which provides the missile with a longer range. This could precisely be a reason why Iran could, in future, concentrate on liquid-fuelled missiles for its ICBMs, should it develop the same.

However, this week’s missile test by Iran will certainly draw international criticism from Israel and also from the US. While many analysts could suggest including the issue of ballistic missiles into the nuclear deal, it is only advantageous to not to include the same in the deal. The nuclear deal does not contain any restrictions for Iran on the development of ballistic missiles per se. It is only the UNSC that imposes an embargo on Iran’s conventional weaponry development. Therefore, such missile tests should not hinder the progress of the nuclear deal that has been much lauded by the international community and truly upholds the essence of the Non-Proliferation Treaty. If Iran’s ballistic missile development program is to be checked, there should be separate regional framework to ban missile development in the West Asian region.

* Debalina Ghoshal, Research Associate, Delhi Policy Group

Emad: Iran’s New Ballistic Missile Amid The Nuclear Deal – Analysis | Eurasia Review


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## rahi2357



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## rahi2357

Iran tested a new medium-range ballistic missile last month in a breach of two U.N. Security Council resolutions, two U.S. officials said on Monday.

The officials, both speaking on condition of anonymity, said the test was held on *Nov. 21*. One of them said the missile traveled within Iranian territory.

A Western diplomatic source said last week on condition of anonymity that the test was held near Chabahar, a port city near Iran's border with Pakistan. He said it was a liquid-fueled missile with a 1,900 km (1,180 mile) range and was capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.

All ballistic missile tests by Iran are banned under a 2010 Security Council resolution that remains valid until a nuclear deal between Iran and six world powers is implemented.

Under that deal, reached on July 14, most sanctions on Iran will be lifted in exchange for curbs on its nuclear program. According to a July 20 resolution endorsing that deal, Iran is still "called upon" to refrain from work on ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons for up to eight years.

In October, the United States, Britain, France and Germany called for the Security Council's Iran sanctions committee to take action over a missile test by Tehran that month that they said violated U.N. sanctions. So far, no action has been taken by the committee.

Several Security Council diplomats said on Monday they had received no official notification of a new alleged violation of the U.N. missile sanctions against Iran since the October notification. The diplomats spoke on condition of anonymity.


Read more at Reutershttp://Iran tested missile, breaching U.N. council resolutions: officials| Reuters

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## Juicer

امیدوارم که حسن و ممجواد به فکر « تنش زدایی » در این مورد نباشن


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## haman10

breaching UN resolotions again ? well kiss our Iranian a$$es for all we care .

vala

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## scythian500

10 نوع موشک ضدزره ایران از توفان تا دهلاویه + عکس

*Dehlavieh:*







*Toophan-5 :*

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## KediKesenFare3

How reliable are the informations on this page?
Iran's Ballistic Missile Program | The Iran Primer

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## Hack-Hook

KediKesenFare said:


> How reliable are the informations on this page?
> Iran's Ballistic Missile Program | The Iran Primer


the padavan that wrote that article is strong in nonsense.

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## Arminkh

JEskandari said:


> the padavan that wrote that article is strong in nonsense.


And I'd say it is too old. The cruise missiles that were revealed last year are known to have range higher than 2000km.

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## yavar

Iran Fajr 3 artillery rocket راکت توپخانه فجر۳


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## Salman_Farsi

Some good pics of th Fateh-313:






1




2




3




4




5

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## yavar

25 years ago old equipment


in another word : bullsh@t


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## yavar

*Iran Qadr-H &F ballistic missile fired from mobile launchers Eqtedar-e-Velayat exercises Phase two*


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## yavar



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## yavar

Iran Qadr-H&F Qiam1, Shahab3&3B Ballistic missiles exercises Eghtedari-Velayat Phase two






Iran Qiam1 ballistic missile fired from Underground Silo based launchers موشك قيام سيلو زيرزميني

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## yavar

Iran IRINN Titer Emshab interview with Gen Hajizadeh Eqtedar-e-Velayat exercises & capabilities


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## yavar

Iran Qadr-H&F,Qiam1 high precision guidance,Shahab3&3B missiles exercises Eghtedar-e-Velayat images UAV









;

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## TaimiKhan

yavar said:


> Iran Qadr-H&F,Qiam1 high precision guidance,Shahab3&3B missiles exercises Eghtedar-e-Velayat images UAV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;



Are these liquid fueled missiles or solid fueled ones ?


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## VEVAK

TaimiKhan said:


> Are these liquid fueled missiles or solid fueled ones ?



All have liquid 1st stage and I believe one of them has a soled fuel 2nd stage


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## yavar

Iran ArmanTV interview Gen Mohammad Tehrani Moghadam, brother Hajj Hassan Tehrani Moghadam

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## yavar

ایران موشک بالستیک ۲ هزار کیلومتری "با خطای ۸ متر" تست کرد

معاون ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح از تست یک موشک بالستیک با برد ۲ هزار کیلومتر خبر داد.
به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم، سردار علی عبدالهی معاون آماد، پشتیبانی و تحقیقات صنعتی ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح طی سخنانی در جشنواره علمی باقر العلوم(ع)، طی سخنانی گفت: موشکی با برد 2000 کلیومتر با خطای 8 متر را ما دو هفته پیش تست کردیم، خطای 8 متر یعنی هیچ، یعنی صفر، یعنی بدون خطا.
وی افزود: این موشک بالستیک را می‌توانیم هدایت کنیم، از جو خارج شده و مجددا به جو بازگشته و بدون خطا به هدف اصابت کند.
معاون ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح نام این موشک را اعلام نکرده است.

سردار عبدالهی همچنین تاکید کرد: ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح 10 درصد از منابع بنیه دفاعی را برای تحقیقات قرار داده که عدد قابل توجهی است ولی در بخش دولتی زیر یک درصد بودجه اختصاص داده شده است.
گفتنی است، موشک‌های بالستیک 2 هزار کیلومتری ایران شامل موشک‌های قدر اف و سجیل 1 و 2 می‌شوند و هنوز مشخص نیست که آیا این موشک‌ها به خطای فوق‌العاده عالی 8 متر، دست یافته‌اند یا موشک جدیدی تست شده است.
آخرین موشک بالستیک دوربرد ایرانی که سال گذشته رونمایی شد، موشک عماد بود که بعدها برد آن 1700 کیلومتر اعلام شد. در این موشک، برای نخستین بار از کلاهکی استفاده شده بود که قادر به هدایت کلاهک تا لحظه اصابت به هدف بود.​
http://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1395/02/20/1070402/ایران-موشک-بالستیک-2-هزار-کیلومتری-با-خطای-8-متر-تست-کرد




Iran recently test-fired a ballistic missile with a range of 2,000 kilometers and accuracy to within eight meters, a senior Iranian military official says.
“Two weeks ago, we tested a missile with a range of 2,000 kilometers and an error margin of eight meters,” Deputy Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces Brigadier General Ali Abdollahi said on Monday.

http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/05/09/464696/Iran-ballistic-missile/

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## Hack-Hook

yavar said:


> ایران موشک بالستیک ۲ هزار کیلومتری "با خطای ۸ متر" تست کرد
> 
> معاون ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح از تست یک موشک بالستیک با برد ۲ هزار کیلومتر خبر داد.
> به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم، سردار علی عبدالهی معاون آماد، پشتیبانی و تحقیقات صنعتی ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح طی سخنانی در جشنواره علمی باقر العلوم(ع)، طی سخنانی گفت: موشکی با برد 2000 کلیومتر با خطای 8 متر را ما دو هفته پیش تست کردیم، خطای 8 متر یعنی هیچ، یعنی صفر، یعنی بدون خطا.
> وی افزود: این موشک بالستیک را می‌توانیم هدایت کنیم، از جو خارج شده و مجددا به جو بازگشته و بدون خطا به هدف اصابت کند.
> معاون ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح نام این موشک را اعلام نکرده است.
> 
> سردار عبدالهی همچنین تاکید کرد: ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح 10 درصد از منابع بنیه دفاعی را برای تحقیقات قرار داده که عدد قابل توجهی است ولی در بخش دولتی زیر یک درصد بودجه اختصاص داده شده است.
> گفتنی است، موشک‌های بالستیک 2 هزار کیلومتری ایران شامل موشک‌های قدر اف و سجیل 1 و 2 می‌شوند و هنوز مشخص نیست که آیا این موشک‌ها به خطای فوق‌العاده عالی 8 متر، دست یافته‌اند یا موشک جدیدی تست شده است.
> آخرین موشک بالستیک دوربرد ایرانی که سال گذشته رونمایی شد، موشک عماد بود که بعدها برد آن 1700 کیلومتر اعلام شد. در این موشک، برای نخستین بار از کلاهکی استفاده شده بود که قادر به هدایت کلاهک تا لحظه اصابت به هدف بود.​
> http://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1395/02/20/1070402/ایران-موشک-بالستیک-2-هزار-کیلومتری-با-خطای-8-متر-تست-کرد
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran recently test-fired a ballistic missile with a range of 2,000 kilometers and accuracy to within eight meters, a senior Iranian military official says.
> “Two weeks ago, we tested a missile with a range of 2,000 kilometers and an error margin of eight meters,” Deputy Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces Brigadier General Ali Abdollahi said on Monday.
> 
> http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/05/09/464696/Iran-ballistic-missile/


Now I want to see who dare to say north Korea surpassed us in missile technology .

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## mohsen

JEskandari said:


> Now I want to see who dare to say north Korea surpassed us in missile technology .


Rohani's medalist commander says otherwise:
*سردار دهقان: آزمایش موشک 2هزار کیلومتر با خطای 8 متر نداشته‌ایم*
what a mess


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## Arminkh

mohsen said:


> Rohani's medalist commander says otherwise:
> *سردار دهقان: آزمایش موشک 2هزار کیلومتر با خطای 8 متر نداشته‌ایم*
> what a mess


Sounds like someone said something that he shouldn't.

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## mohsen

Arminkh said:


> Sounds like someone said something that he shouldn't.


Sounds like Rohani medalists!
http://www.mashreghnews.ir/fa/news/...لستیک‌های-ایرانی-از-آمریکا-و-روسیه-جلو-زد-عکس

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## tommytrant20

i think iran has discussions more iraq , north korea and syria but still lags far america so which dont should against with US.
If US has can attack iraq in 24h , so iran will can 48h or 72h max. iran sure lose.


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## mohsen

tommytrant20 said:


> i think iran has discussions more iraq , north korea and syria but still lags far america so which dont should against with US.
> If US has can attack iraq in 24h , so iran will can 48h or 72h max. iran sure lose.

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## AmirPatriot

tommytrant20 said:


> i think iran has discussions more iraq , north korea and syria but still lags far america so which dont should against with US.
> If US has can attack iraq in 24h , so iran will can 48h or 72h max. iran sure lose.


What an enlightening and considered military analysis you have there.

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## raptor22

tommytrant20 said:


> i think iran has discussions more iraq , north korea and syria but still lags far america so which dont should against with US.
> If US has can attack iraq in 24h , so iran will can 48h or 72h max. iran sure lose.



Please dude give us some credits , at least one week for a country that launched first amphibious assault. in the history of warfare ....
For Iraq it took more than 20 days not 24h and no one neither Iraqi army or Iraqi people defended the country and stood against foreign troops except some presidential guards, actually people were fed up by the regime and army was exhausted due to wars and sanctions ..... on the other hand Iraq topography is mostly desert that make it easy to advance ... and Iraq area is one third of Iran as its population is one half of Iran ... comparing them isn't wise .... 
And not to mention that Americans just attack weak and vulnerable countries like Iraq, Afghanistan , Yemen, Somali and so on that's why you'll never see Iran-USA war never ever ...

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## yantong1980

tommytrant20 said:


> i think iran has discussions more iraq , north korea and syria but still lags far america so which dont should against with US.
> If US has can attack iraq in 24h , so iran will can 48h or 72h max. iran sure lose.



Really what an expert, LoL

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## tommytrant20

i thinks of US president is not obama , policy of their very soft-thin was wearing to occurs.
now wordl situation in the change , russian link with iran , syria , and china riots in south east asia so as US not enough money and force spread in the world


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## VEVAK

JEskandari said:


> Now I want to see who dare to say north Korea surpassed us in missile technology .



Saying North Korea surpassed Iran makes no sense it implies that N.Korea was behind Iran and then they surpassed us!
In terms of Missile Technology it's Iran that has surpassed N.Korea in many aspects but not all!!!

In Solid Fuel Iran has clearly surpassed N.Korea 
In accuracy Iran has clearly surpassed N.Korea
In survivability, quality & mass production I also believe Iran has surpassed N.Korea

BUT currently Iran and N.Korea's missile programs follow different goals

N.Korea is actively trying to increase the range of it's ballistic missiles and since they have nukes they don't care much about high accuracy. So I have to say in terms of range N.Korea is more advanced because that is the main goal they are working towards.

While Iran's goals are now different, once Iran reached 2500 km Iran shifted it's main goals to accuracy, survivability, quality & mass production.

I fully believe that if Iran was actively trying to increase the range of it's ballistic missiles by now we would have surpassed N.Korea in every aspect but currently in terms of range they are more advanced

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## yavar

VEVAK said:


> In Solid Fuel Iran has clearly surpassed N.Korea
> In accuracy Iran has clearly surpassed N.Korea
> In survivability, quality & mass production I also believe Iran has surpassed N.Korea



you should add these two as well so it become clear where each country are

engine ignition underwater and having trust under water which only two country has such technology




Iran Long-Range Land attack strategic cruise missile technology





+
which nation was first nation to put satellite light in space successfully ?? and entered space ??


last stage Unha 3 was the Iranian Safir's

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## yavar

*Iran Army NZAJA missile exercise "Heydar Karrar 3" phase one رزمایش موشکی ارتش حیدر کرار۳*

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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> you should add these two as well so it become clear where each country are
> 
> engine ignition underwater and having trust under water which only two country has such technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran Long-Range Land attack strategic cruise missile technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> which nation was first nation to put satellite light in space successfully ?? and entered space ??
> 
> 
> last stage Unha 3 was the Iranian Safir's



In SLBM I would say N.Korea is more advance and again it's because it's more important to them because unlike Iran they are a very small country which decreased the missiles survivability and their entire eastern and western boarders are costal and hit the open seas.
so I would say developing SLBM's is not really high on Iran's agenda and as for Iranian sub's I believe Iran will likely stick to developing cruise missiles!

And again it was after Iran reached 2500km range with it's ballistic missiles where it shifted it's goals and started allocating more resources to other weapons like long range cruise missiles. 

Satellites are a different story, Iran clearly was 1st to send a satellites into space BUT Iran's success was surpassed by N.Korea's launch because they were able to develop a more powerful 1st stage booster and do it faster because increasing range was higher on their military agenda

At the end of the day it's all about funding and allocation of resources if Iran decides to allocate more funding and resources to it's SLV program and carry out more launches we could easily surpass N.Korea in less than 5 years easily It's simple every space program will have failed launches but every failed launch is step forward but without investing in those launches you can't really expect the country to surpass anyone.
Iran needs to have at least 3 or more launches a year, without it our space program isn't really going to surpass anyone 
The technology and scientific base to develop the capability to be far more advanced than N.Korea is there the rest is all about the funding

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## باپ

Is this true?


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## SOHEIL

باپ said:


> Is this true?
> 
> View attachment 306573





Fanboy Art !

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## raptor22

باپ said:


> Is this true?
> 
> View attachment 306573



Iranian manufactured cars have 4 wheels as same as Indian made automobiles which could indicate it is Indian help ...

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## VEVAK

باپ said:


> Is this true?
> 
> View attachment 306573



Not in the slightest!

Angi-2 is a 2 or 2.5 stage missile vs Iran's Emad Missile that's a 1 or 1.5 stage missile

Aside from that the dimensions of both the missile and the reentry vehicle are totally different making it's flight control system totally different... In layman's terms it's like putting the flight control software of an F-22 on an F-5! It really makes no difference how advanced the flight control software of an F-22 is because once you put it on an F-5 regardless of how advance it is it still becomes absolutely useless!

And If it was as easy as that Iran's Fatteh-110 built almost 15 years ago also has fins and high precision but that doesn't mean you can just slap it on any Ballistic Missile and....






as raptor 22 said It's like saying an Iranian car has 4 wheels, same as and Indian cars.....

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## Faravahar

باپ said:


> Is this true?
> 
> View attachment 306573



Your obsession with Iran-India relations has given you much brain farts I see.  At lest get the name of missile right.



VEVAK said:


> Not in the slightest!
> 
> Angi-2 is a 2 or 2.5 stage missile vs Iran's Emad Missile that's a 1 or 1.5 stage missile



What are you talking about? It is based on the ghadir family which are a two staged missile.

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## VEVAK

Faravahar said:


> Your obsession with Iran-India relations has given you much brain farts I see.  At lest get the name of missile right.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? It is based on the ghadir family which are a two staged missile.



Nope! And why are you upset? 1 stage is better!!!! 

Emad is a 1 or 1.5 stage missile with a range of 1750 km not a 2 stage!

Less stages less problems!

1 stage = increased survivability
1 stage = far less chance of technical problems
1 stage = faster set up time and fueling
1 stage = easer use and less technical requirements
1 stage = cheaper and easier to mass produce
and so much more!

And the fact that Iran has a 1 stage missile that size that can fly 1750 km and hit targets with high accuracy is a big deal! a 2 stage would have been far less impressive!

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## yavar

VEVAK said:


> In SLBM I would say N.Korea is more advance



may i ask how did you figure this one out ??

ایران پیشرفته‌تر از آن چیزی است که نشان می‌دهد/ بوش تعلل کرد




در حال حاضر همان‌قدر که رئیس‌جمهور از پیشرفت‌ها و فعالیت‌های کره شمالی نگران است، به همان میزان و شاید بیشتر نیز باید در مورد ایران نگرانی داشته باشد. به اعتقاد من، کره شمالی در بسیاری از موارد فقط شوی سیاسی اجرا می‌کند، در حالی‌که ایران بسیار پیشرفته‌تر از آن چیزی است که نشان می‌دهد و همین باید همه ما را در سیستم سیاسی آمریکا هم نگران کند و هم به فکر فرو ببرد. باید به دنبال راه چاره بود

http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13950207001203​


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## mohsen

step by step toward missile sanctions in Iran:
اگر خیانت نیست پس چیست!؟
دولت تدبیر و امید چگونه پازل آمریکا در برجام 2 را تکمیل می‌کند/ نتیجه عدول از خط‌قرمزهای مقاومت جنگ با داعش در تهران است

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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> may i ask how did you figure this one out ??
> 
> ایران پیشرفته‌تر از آن چیزی است که نشان می‌دهد/ بوش تعلل کرد
> 
> 
> 
> 
> در حال حاضر همان‌قدر که رئیس‌جمهور از پیشرفت‌ها و فعالیت‌های کره شمالی نگران است، به همان میزان و شاید بیشتر نیز باید در مورد ایران نگرانی داشته باشد. به اعتقاد من، کره شمالی در بسیاری از موارد فقط شوی سیاسی اجرا می‌کند، در حالی‌که ایران بسیار پیشرفته‌تر از آن چیزی است که نشان می‌دهد و همین باید همه ما را در سیستم سیاسی آمریکا هم نگران کند و هم به فکر فرو ببرد. باید به دنبال راه چاره بود
> 
> http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13950207001203​




N. Korea has a lot more submarines than Iran does
N. Korea is actively building +1000 tone submarines
N. Korea has tested a SLBM & Iran has not






So yes they are more advanced than Iran when it come to SLBM's


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## SOHEIL

VEVAK said:


> N. Korea has a lot more submarines than Iran does
> N. Korea is actively building +1000 tone submarines
> N. Korea has tested a SLBM & Iran has not
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yes they are more advanced than Iran when it come to SLBM's



What is the point of SLBM when we have no bombs !?


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## VEVAK

SOHEIL said:


> What is the point of SLBM when we have no bombs !?



You mean Nukes?

My point is that the only reason N.Korea is more advanced than Iran in SLBM is because they have been working towards developing that capability & Iran has not! Because Iran doesn't need them!

In my opinion a precision guided weapon to me is more valuable because it may actually get used!


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## Aramagedon

*Iran to Unveil New Missile Systems: Commander*





*TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Commander of Iran’s Khatam al-Anbia Air Defense Base Brigadier General Farzad Esmaili highlighted the country’s latest achievements in the area of air defense, saying that a series of new missile systems will become operational in a few months.*

A series of new domestically-built missile systems will come on stream by the end of the current Iranian calendar year (March 2016-March 2017), Brigadier General Esmaili said in a speech on Wednesday.

The new missile systems will be “fatal” to any enemy who dares to Threaten Iran, he added.

Brigadier General Esmaili further described Iran’s airspace as the safest in the Middle East thanks to its advanced, homegrown radars and defense missile systems.

Iranian military experts and technicians have in recent years made great headways in manufacturing a broad range of indigenous equipment, making the armed forces self-sufficient in the arms sphere.

Iran has made it clear that its military might poses no threat to the regional countries, saying that the Islamic Republic’s defense doctrine is entirely based on deterrence.

http://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2016/06/30/1118648/iran-to-unveil-new-missile-systems-commander

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## raptor22

2800 said:


> “fatal”



What does it mean? it meant "fatal" in English? never heard naming Iranian manufactured weapons and systems by English words ....


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## Aramagedon

raptor22 said:


> What does it mean? it meant "fatal" in English? never heard naming Iranian manufactured weapons and systems by English words ....


It is an adjective and means 'deadly'.


VEVAK said:


> N. Korea has a lot more submarines than Iran does
> N. Korea is actively building +1000 tone submarines
> N. Korea has tested a SLBM & Iran has not
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yes they are more advanced than Iran when it come to SLBM's


Toam ke faghat zede Iran migi. Baba kheyli nokhbe hasti.

Zoj Irani ha hich ghomi tu jahan vojud nadaran ke bar zede keshvare khodeshun sohbat konan.

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## raptor22

2800 said:


> It is an adjective and means 'deadly'.
> 
> Toam ke faghat zede Iran migi. Baba kheyli nokhbe hasti


I mentioned in my post that it might be "fatal" in English and it does mean deadly as you said , but what I asked is since when we name and call our manufactured weapons with English words? that's why I doubt ...

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## Aramagedon

raptor22 said:


> I mentioned in my post that it might be "fatal" in English and it does mean deadly as you said , but what I asked is since when we name and call our manufactured weapons with English words? that's why I doubt ...


Bro that's not a name for new Iranian missile system. He means Iranian missiles will be deadly for enemies.

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## yavar

VEVAK said:


> So yes they are more advanced than Iran when it come to SLBM's



your opinion . but mis Rise and chuck hagel think other views . time will tell


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## Aramagedon

*Iran Says Missiles Ready to Annihilate Israel*




*
TEHRAN (Tasnim) – A senior Iranian commander called on the Tel Aviv regime to learn from its past mistakes, saying that hundreds of missiles are ready across the Islamic regions to hit Israel in case of any wrong move by Zionists.
*
*“Today, the grounds for the annihilation and collapse of the Zionist regime (of Israel) are provided more than ever,” *Lieutenant Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Brigadier General Hossein Salami said, addressing the weekly Friday Prayers in Tehran held after massive rallies marking the International Quds Day.

*“Today, more than 100,000 missiles are ready to fly from Lebanon,” *he said, adding that whenever the Zionists attempt to repeat their past mistakes based on their wrong estimates, the missiles will be fired and hit Israel and will lead to new developments.

*The commander went on to say that in addition to missiles, there are “tens of thousands of destructive long-range missiles” in some other Islamic regions, which are targeting the entire Israeli-occupied territories, ranging from Haifa to Tel Aviv, and are ready for order to remove Israel from the political geography of the world.*

*“…If the Zionists make a wrong move, all the occupied territories will come under attack from dedicated fighters and God willing, the territories will be liberated,” *Brigadier General Salami noted.

Millions of fasting Iranian people took to the streets on Friday to attend nationwide rallies to express solidarity with the Palestinian people, who have been suffering from Israel’s atrocities for decades.

Venting their anger on the Tel Aviv regime and its allies, demonstrators call for an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, Judaization of the holy city of al-Quds and construction of Israeli settlements across the West Bank.

Carrying placards and chanting slogans against Israel and the US, marchers voiced their support for the people of Gaza and the West Bank, and reiterated their opposition to the occupation of the Palestinian territories by Zionists.

Each year, the International Quds Day is held on the last Friday of the holy Muslim month of Ramadan.

The event’s raison d'être is renewing support for the Palestinians and fierce denunciation of Israel.

The day is also seen as the legacy of the late founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Imam Khomeini, who officially declared the last Friday of the holy month of Ramadan as International Quds Day back in 1979.

http://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2016/07/01/1119499/iran-says-missiles-ready-to-hit-israel

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## VEVAK

2800 said:


> Toam ke faghat zede Iran migi. Baba kheyli nokhbe hasti.
> 
> Zoj Irani ha hich ghomi tu jahan vojud nadaran ke bar zede keshvare khodeshun sohbat konan.



Zoj na Joz!!!

Hagheeghat o ghoftan heech goh zed e Irani neest azeezam!

For us to grow we need to point out our weaknesses so we can improve on them because if we stay under the delusion that that we have everything and we are good at everything then there is no need for us to work twice as hard as others to improve on our weaknesses and flaws!!

pass hagheeghat o goftan heech vaght zed e Irani neest

We are one of the top 10 missile powers of the world that is a fact!!! But our SLBM capabilities are not more advanced than North Korea's!
And from the tests conducted it seems Iran has chosen Cruise Missiles for it's sub's over SLBM's now that could change now that could change but currently those are the facts!
And Iran's cruise missile capabilities are far more advanced than North Korea's

But I'm not going to sit here and knowingly lie about a capability I know we don't have!

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## rahi2357

North korea's recent *Musudan* *HS-10* missile test actually succeeded .

" South Korea, US and Japan eventually confirmed that the missile reached an apogee of about 1,000 km and landed in Sea of Japan (East Sea of Korea) at about 400 km away from the launch site.

However with the subsequent analysis, experts agreed that the about *1,000 km apogee* is intended for the missile to fly at a steeper angle than would be ideal that could reach its maximum range of *3,500 km or more* as a deliberate attempt to avoid Japanese airspace. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM25_Musudan















So what ? :

*" Current operators[edit]*





North Korea: According to one source, more than 200;[22] other source claims 12 deployed.[23] 16 were seen at once during the October 10, 2010 Military Parade, although experts contacted by the Washington Post believed these were mock-ups of the missile.[3]
*Suspected operators[edit]*





Iran: 19, according to a leaked, classified U.S. State Department cable,[24] although Iran has never displayed the missiles causing some U.S. intelligence officials to doubt the missiles were transferred to Iran.[3] "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM25_Musudan

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## mohsen

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/0...4th-missile-test-since-signing-nuke-deal.html

Two days before the anniversary of the nuclear agreement between Iran and world powers, the Islamic Republic attempted to launch a new type of ballistic missile using North Korean technology, multiple intelligence officials tell Fox News.

The test, in violation of a UN resolution, failed shortly after liftoff when the missile exploded, sources said. The effort occurred on the evening of July 11-12 near the Iranian city of Saman, an hour west of Isfahan, where Iran has conducted similar ballistic missile tests in the past.

It would be at least the fourth time Iran has launched or attempted to launch a ballistic missile since the nuclear accord was signed on July 14, 2015.

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## Allen Iverson

2800 said:


> *Iran Says Missiles Ready to Annihilate Israel*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> TEHRAN (Tasnim) – A senior Iranian commander called on the Tel Aviv regime to learn from its past mistakes, saying that hundreds of missiles are ready across the Islamic regions to hit Israel in case of any wrong move by Zionists.
> *
> *“Today, the grounds for the annihilation and collapse of the Zionist regime (of Israel) are provided more than ever,” *Lieutenant Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Brigadier General Hossein Salami said, addressing the weekly Friday Prayers in Tehran held after massive rallies marking the International Quds Day.
> 
> *“Today, more than 100,000 missiles are ready to fly from Lebanon,” *he said, adding that whenever the Zionists attempt to repeat their past mistakes based on their wrong estimates, the missiles will be fired and hit Israel and will lead to new developments.
> 
> *The commander went on to say that in addition to missiles, there are “tens of thousands of destructive long-range missiles” in some other Islamic regions, which are targeting the entire Israeli-occupied territories, ranging from Haifa to Tel Aviv, and are ready for order to remove Israel from the political geography of the world.*
> 
> *“…If the Zionists make a wrong move, all the occupied territories will come under attack from dedicated fighters and God willing, the territories will be liberated,” *Brigadier General Salami noted.
> 
> Millions of fasting Iranian people took to the streets on Friday to attend nationwide rallies to express solidarity with the Palestinian people, who have been suffering from Israel’s atrocities for decades.
> 
> Venting their anger on the Tel Aviv regime and its allies, demonstrators call for an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, Judaization of the holy city of al-Quds and construction of Israeli settlements across the West Bank.
> 
> Carrying placards and chanting slogans against Israel and the US, marchers voiced their support for the people of Gaza and the West Bank, and reiterated their opposition to the occupation of the Palestinian territories by Zionists.
> 
> Each year, the International Quds Day is held on the last Friday of the holy Muslim month of Ramadan.
> 
> The event’s raison d'être is renewing support for the Palestinians and fierce denunciation of Israel.
> 
> The day is also seen as the legacy of the late founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Imam Khomeini, who officially declared the last Friday of the holy month of Ramadan as International Quds Day back in 1979.
> 
> http://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2016/07/01/1119499/iran-says-missiles-ready-to-hit-israel


My friend I don't think Israel is a provocative neighbour nor, it is a rogue nation.. Israel is a responsible Military power and made commendable achievements in science and technology.. It has grown from strength to strength.. Israel is a strategic ally of India, so we can't see them getting pounded by Missiles by any country .. But at the same time, Iran is also an ally of India and we have stood with Iran in tough times, and India would like to serve as the bridge between both these nations, and all three can actually achieve a lot together.. Cheers to India, Iran, Israel unity.. @500 @Mountain Jew


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## AmirPatriot

Allen Iverson said:


> My friend I don't think Israel is a provocative neighbour nor, it is a rogue nation.. Israel is a responsible Military power and made commendable achievements in science and technology.. It has grown from strength to strength.. Israel is a strategic ally of India, so we can't see them getting pounded by Missiles by any country .. But at the same time, Iran is also an ally of India and we have stood with Iran in tough times, and India would like to serve as the bridge between both these nations, and all three can actually achieve a lot together.. Cheers to India, Iran, Israel unity.. @500 @Mountain Jew



As much as peace is important, it's not gonna happen bro. Iran and Israel have very deeply rooted emnity. I don't call occupiers, terrorists, orchestrators of chaos in the region, ethnic cleansers, war criminals "responsible". There is more likelihood of India and Pakistan settling the problems in Kashmir.


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## mohsen

Allen Iverson said:


> My friend I don't think Israel is a provocative neighbour nor, it is a rogue nation.. Israel is a responsible Military power and made commendable achievements in science and technology.. It has grown from strength to strength.. Israel is a strategic ally of India, so we can't see them getting pounded by Missiles by any country .. But at the same time, Iran is also an ally of India and we have stood with Iran in tough times, and India would like to serve as the bridge between both these nations, and all three can actually achieve a lot together.. Cheers to India, Iran, Israel unity.. @500 @Mountain Jew


either you don't understand the meaning of provocation and rogue or your info about this apartheid zionist regime is weak.

Israeli defense minister promises to kill more civilians and threatens to nuke Iran


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## Allen Iverson

mohsen said:


> either you don't understand the meaning of provocation and rogue or your info about this apartheid zionist regime is weak.
> 
> Israeli defense minister promises to kill more civilians and threatens to nuke Iran


Sorry Man, My info on Israeli relations with Arabs are limited.. pls enlighten me..Why would Israel make such statements to any country..


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## raptor22

Allen Iverson said:


> Sorry Man, My info on Israeli relations with Arabs are limited.. pls enlighten me..Why would Israel make such statements to any country..


Arabs? who said we are Arab? besides israel has occupied lands belong to Palestine , Syria and Lebanon ...how could we be united with them?

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## mohsen

Allen Iverson said:


> Sorry Man, My info on Israeli relations with Arabs are limited.. pls enlighten me..Why would Israel make such statements to any country..


Because it's an apartheid regime who occupies other people's land, and has to suppress any resistance idea with frightening and killing the civilians (The terrorism).

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> Because it's an apartheid regime who occupies other people's land, and has to suppress any resistance idea with frightening and killing the civilians (The terrorism).


Well , there is no doubt that Israel is founded on Apartheid ideology. but after Hamas sided with Al-Nusra and ISIS in Syria I won't care too much about them .
اگه اونها از لبنان و سوریه عقب بنشینن شاید برای اینکه دلم خنک بشه سر فلسطین از اونها طرفداری بکنم.


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## AmirPatriot

JEskandari said:


> Well , there is no doubt that Israel is founded on Apartheid ideology. but after Hamas sided with Al-Nusra and ISIS in Syria I won't care too much about them .
> اگه اونها از لبنان و سوریه عقب بنشینن شاید برای اینکه دلم خنک بشه سر فلسطین از اونها طرفداری بکنم.



اصلا بهتره این گروه‌ها رو کمک نکرد. این حماس ‌یک جونوریه. خودمونم نمیتونیم بگیم تروریست نیستن، مخصوصاً بعد از سوریه. آقا اینا وقتی‌ فلسطینی‌ها میرند زنه حامله رو چاقو میزنند میگند "آفرین، بازم بکنیند!". بابا با این جونوره نمیشه کاری کرد. اشتباه نهگیر، من می‌خوام یه گروهی با اسرائیل بجنگه اما حداقل این کار هملهیه تروریستی رو نکنند. حتا حزب‌الله یه کارهایی‌ کرده اما اونا رو فکر نکنم نصرالله دستور داده. منتها این گفتنه "یهودیها رو بنداز تو درایه" هم اصلا خوب نیست.

داداش من فقط دارم حرف میزنم اگر اشتباهی‌ کردم بهم بگو.

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> اصلا بهتره این گروه‌ها رو کمک نکرد. این حماس ‌یک جونوریه. خودمونم نمیتونیم بگیم تروریست نیستن، مخصوصاً بعد از سوریه. آقا اینا وقتی‌ فلسطینی‌ها میرند زنه حامله رو چاقو میزنند میگند "آفرین، بازم بکنیند!". بابا با این جونوره نمیشه کاری کرد. اشتباه نهگیر، من می‌خوام یه گروهی با اسرائیل بجنگه اما حداقل این کار هملهیه تروریستی رو نکنند. حتا حزب‌الله یه کارهایی‌ کرده اما اونا رو فکر نکنم نصرالله دستور داده. منتها این گفتنه "یهودیها رو بنداز تو درایه" هم اصلا خوب نیست.
> 
> داداش من فقط دارم حرف میزنم اگر اشتباهی‌ کردم بهم بگو.



جنگیدن برای خاک یک چیز رعایت اصول اخلاقی و انسانی در جنگ یک چیز دیگر ...متاسفانه این موضوع کم و ییش و یا اصلا رعایت نمی شود .. در مورد همین زن حامله واقعا آدم چقدر می تواند سنگدل باشد که دست به همچین کاری بزند؟ اون بچه هیچ تصوری از جنگ و وقایع مرتبط ندارد و بی گناه بود .... البته موضوع عمیق تر از این حرف هاست نمیشه شما یک ملتی رو دهه ها تحت فشار قرار بدی خونه هائشن خراب کنی و دفاعشون رو تروریست بنامی ولی توقع واکنش های هیستریک نداشته یاشی ..... به هر حال به همین دلیل بعضی از گروه ها در فلسطین حمایت هر گروهی رو می پذیرند و برای دریافت کمک به هر رنگی در می آیند حداقل اگر ما می خواهیم به کسی کمک کنیم باید خطوط قرمزی برای خودمون داشته باشیم و رسما اعلام کنیم .... چون ما کنترلی بر ریز اقدامات اینها نداریم و هر کاری بکنند به نام ما هم ثبت می شود .... حداقل اگر جنایات اسرائیل محکوم می شود این گونه اقدامات نیز باید محکوم بشود ...من که ندیدم تلویزیون ایران خبری از این زن حامله بدهد ....یعنی همچین حمایت کور کورانه ای داریم.
اون ریختن یهودیان تو در یا هم به نظرم بیشتر جنبه جنگ روانی داشته باشه .. حداقل امیدوارم ...

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## mohsen

JEskandari said:


> Well , there is no doubt that Israel is founded on Apartheid ideology. but after Hamas sided with Al-Nusra and ISIS in Syria I won't care too much about them .
> اگه اونها از لبنان و سوریه عقب بنشینن شاید برای اینکه دلم خنک بشه سر فلسطین از اونها طرفداری بکنم.


only some of their leaders supported the FSA, and in the end they regretted and officially apologized. as long as U.S supports Israel from 10 thousands kilometer away, we will support Hamas too, it's our national interest.

خوب برای اینکه دلت کاملا خنک شه برای کشتن دانشمندامون هم یه تشکر ویژه بکن

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## Hack-Hook

@mohsen
برای اون موقعی دلم خنک میشه که مثل مرد به ازای هر کدام از اونها یک نفر در همون رده از اسراییلیها هدف قرار میدادن . بگو ببینم تا حالا چه اقدامی‌در زمینه انتقام از اونها انجام شده . بزار بهت بگم هیچ چیز .

And by the way statistically no country in the world has higher percentage of supporters for those zombies .


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## VEVAK

raptor22 said:


> جنگیدن برای خاک یک چیز رعایت اصول اخلاقی و انسانی در جنگ یک چیز دیگر ...متاسفانه این موضوع کم و ییش و یا اصلا رعایت نمی شود .. در مورد همین زن حامله واقعا آدم چقدر می تواند سنگدل باشد که دست به همچین کاری بزند؟ اون بچه هیچ تصوری از جنگ و وقایع مرتبط ندارد و بی گناه بود .... البته موضوع عمیق تر از این حرف هاست نمیشه شما یک ملتی رو دهه ها تحت فشار قرار بدی خونه هائشن خراب کنی و دفاعشون رو تروریست بنامی ولی توقع واکنش های هیستریک نداشته یاشی ..... به هر حال به همین دلیل بعضی از گروه ها در فلسطین حمایت هر گروهی رو می پذیرند و برای دریافت کمک به هر رنگی در می آیند حداقل اگر ما می خواهیم به کسی کمک کنیم باید خطوط قرمزی برای خودمون داشته باشیم و رسما اعلام کنیم .... چون ما کنترلی بر ریز اقدامات اینها نداریم و هر کاری بکنند به نام ما هم ثبت می شود .... حداقل اگر جنایات اسرائیل محکوم می شود این گونه اقدامات نیز باید محکوم بشود ...من که ندیدم تلویزیون ایران خبری از این زن حامله بدهد ....یعنی همچین حمایت کور کورانه ای داریم.
> اون ریختن یهودیان تو در یا هم به نظرم بیشتر جنبه جنگ روانی داشته باشه .. حداقل امیدوارم ...



Man dow hafteh peesh doshtam ba yeh Phelesteeni bahs mekardam! ean hameh hemayat o komak e Iran chee shod? ta taghi be tooghi khord hamashoon shodan doshman o khoneh Shiieh barashoon hallal! mardak bargasht goft Arabestan doreh komakeh Yamen mekoneh o Iran Jenayat!
Agheh ba goosh ha e khodam nashneedeh bodam bavar nemekardam! Pedar sag megoft al-Saud doreh komakeh Yamen mekoneh! yani ta ean had?
Baleh Iran has a moral duty and obligation to stand against any apartheid state! VALI hemayat as ean adam ha joz khanjari posht kod neest azeezam! Sad rahmat beh Israel keh had e aghal khanjar as jello mebeni doreh meyad!
bad beyaym pooleh mellatemoono sarfeh ean vahshi ha na mard koneem keh chee? mageh maraz dareem? yeh gheroon nabayad beshoon dod! hamasho befresteem Hezbullah keh haddeh aghal medoneem ta akharesh poshtemoonan o ma poshteh un a! Aslan bayad mesleh Turkeyyeh ba ean Phelestiniha rafter kard ta ghadr nashnasa adam beshan!

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## Draco.IMF

*I never saw this system in Iran before, does anyone know what it can be? air defence?*

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## AmirPatriot

Draco.IMF said:


> *I never saw this system in Iran before, does anyone know what it can be? air defence?*



Based on the TEL it looks like some sort of tactical missile or artillery rocket. Possibly its a guided version of the Fajr 5 rocket.

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## Rukarl

Iran is developing supersonic cruise missiles:



> *Iran to build supersonic maritime cruise missiles soon: Dehqan*
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian Defense Minister Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan says the country plans to produce marine cruise missiles with supersonic speed in the near future.
> 
> “We have greatly increased the range of our marine cruise missiles and currently possess missiles with a range of 200 kilometers which are anti-ship and anti-surface,” Dehqan said in a ceremony in Tehran on Sunday to unveil Iran's first turbojet engine which will be used in aircraft.
> 
> He added that the country has succeeded in taking major steps in the development of marine cruise missiles and has doubled or even tripled the range of all its missiles and made efforts to diversify their applications.
> 
> “We have succeeded in changing the strategic systems of cruise missiles and increasing the power of their engines and ranges,” Dehqan said, adding that the missiles can now hit the targets at a distance of 100 kilometers.



http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/...ster-Hossein-Dehqan-cruise-missiles-torpedoes

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## yavar

*Iran IRINN documentary "why missiles ?" مستند چرا موشک ؟*

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## SOHEIL

@yavar

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## Vincent Alvares

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar


New Rocket Engine?


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## Rukarl

That's a North korean engine from from their recent test.



Vincent Alvares said:


> New Rocket Engine?


 Yes but not Iranian.

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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> @yavar


سردا سر لشكر باقرى امروز در سخنرانيش در رژه همچى را لو داد


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## mohsen

new Zolfaghar missile system (range:750km):















Khatam 5 missile system:

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## ghaher313

yavar said:


> سردا سر لشكر باقرى امروز در سخنرانيش در رژه همچى را لو داد



@yavar ایشون که چیز خاصی نگفتن 
نمیشه یکم واضح تر بگین ؟!؟

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## yavar

ghaher313 said:


> @yavar ایشون که چیز خاصی نگفتن
> نمیشه یکم واضح تر بگین ؟!؟


the video coming up . i am uploading .


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## yavar

mohsen said:


> new Zolfaghar missile system:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Khatam 5 missile system:


*موشک نقطه‌زن سپاه 750 کیلومتری شد*

موشک فاتح که به نظر میرسد موشک ذوالفقار از بسیاری جهات شبیه به آن باشد، دقیقترین موشک بالستیک ایرانی با میزان خطای زیر 5 متر است.

این موشک با سوخت جامد می‌تواند اهداف را در فاصله حدود 750 کیلومتری مورد اصابت قرار دهد.

به نظر می‌رسد طول موشک ذوالفقار 8.9 متر، وزن مسلح آن حدود 4هزار کیلوگرم، قطر آن 68 سانتی متر و وزن سرجنگی آن نیز حدود 500 کیلوکرم باشد که با سرجنگی بارانی گزینه مناسبی برای هدف قرار دادن مواضع دشمن و نیز باندهای فرودگاهی است.

*البته در جریان این دو رژه، سامانه های مهم دیگری هم بعضا برای اولین بار به نمایش درآمدند که در آینده بیشتر از آنها خواهیم گفت.*​


http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13950631000684#relatedVideoPane

conspiracy theory 750 on both KM & KG



*سامانه‌های موشکی "خاتم 5 و 7" رونمایی شدند*

به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم اعزامی به بندرعباس، رژه بزرگ نیروهای مسلح در اولین روز از هفته دفاع مقدس و همزمان با سراسر کشور در بندرعباس در حال برگزاری است.

دقایقی پیش در رژه بزرگ نیروهای مسلح در بندرعباس از سامانه موشکی خاتم 5 و سامانه موشکی خاتم 7 رونمایی شد.

سامانه موشکی خاتم 5 سامانه‌ای با تحرک‌پذیری بالا و دارای سامانه‌ای رهگیر بوده و می‌تواند اهداف را کشف، رهگیری و منهدم کند.

سامانه موشکی خاتم 7 نیز سامانه‌ای خوداتکا و مجهز به سامانه‌ رهگیر با قابلیت مانور بالا بوده که محصول تلاش متخصصان داخلی است.

تصاویر تسنیم از سامانه موشکی خاتم 5 را در ذیل ببینید

http://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1...اس-تا-پرواز-جنگنده-های-ارتش-بر-فراز-خلیج-فارس​

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## mohsen

yavar said:


> *موشک نقطه‌زن سپاه 750 کیلومتری شد*
> 
> موشک فاتح که به نظر میرسد موشک ذوالفقار از بسیاری جهات شبیه به آن باشد، دقیقترین موشک بالستیک ایرانی با میزان خطای زیر 5 متر است.
> 
> این موشک با سوخت جامد می‌تواند اهداف را در فاصله حدود 750 کیلومتری مورد اصابت قرار دهد.
> 
> به نظر می‌رسد طول موشک ذوالفقار 8.9 متر، وزن مسلح آن حدود 4هزار کیلوگرم، قطر آن 68 سانتی متر و وزن سرجنگی آن نیز حدود 500 کیلوکرم باشد که با سرجنگی بارانی گزینه مناسبی برای هدف قرار دادن مواضع دشمن و نیز باندهای فرودگاهی است.
> 
> *البته در جریان این دو رژه، سامانه های مهم دیگری هم بعضا برای اولین بار به نمایش درآمدند که در آینده بیشتر از آنها خواهیم گفت.*​
> 
> 
> http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13950631000684#relatedVideoPane
> 
> conspiracy theory 750 on both KM & KG
> 
> 
> 
> *سامانه‌های موشکی "خاتم 5 و 7" رونمایی شدند*
> 
> به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم اعزامی به بندرعباس، رژه بزرگ نیروهای مسلح در اولین روز از هفته دفاع مقدس و همزمان با سراسر کشور در بندرعباس در حال برگزاری است.
> 
> دقایقی پیش در رژه بزرگ نیروهای مسلح در بندرعباس از سامانه موشکی خاتم 5 و سامانه موشکی خاتم 7 رونمایی شد.
> 
> سامانه موشکی خاتم 5 سامانه‌ای با تحرک‌پذیری بالا و دارای سامانه‌ای رهگیر بوده و می‌تواند اهداف را کشف، رهگیری و منهدم کند.
> 
> سامانه موشکی خاتم 7 نیز سامانه‌ای خوداتکا و مجهز به سامانه‌ رهگیر با قابلیت مانور بالا بوده که محصول تلاش متخصصان داخلی است.
> 
> تصاویر تسنیم از سامانه موشکی خاتم 5 را در ذیل ببینید
> 
> http://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1395/06/31/1192177/ذوالفقار-از-نیام-بیرون-آمد-از-قدرت-نمایی-موشکی-سپاه-در-تهران-و-بندرعباس-تا-پرواز-جنگنده-های-ارتش-بر-فراز-خلیج-فارس​


Now you can say Fateh 313 is obsolete.

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## Draco.IMF

Please keep in english guys, Fateh is my favourite missile family 
I try with google translator but its hard

Is this the follower of Fateh 313?

Range 750 km?
Warhead 750kg?
CEP?
Purpose of this missile -> Anti Ship? Anti radar?....
Its like a iranian version of Iskander, right?

What is the Khatam 5 missile system?
Anti ship?
Purpose? Range?

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> Range 750 km?
> Warhead 750kg?
> CEP?


Zulfiqar missile System :
operational range : 750KM
warhead weight : they say 500 KG
warhead type : MRV or claster warhead
CEP : 3 M

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## yavar

*Iran Zulfiqar ballistic missile system SRBM range 750 KM موشک بالستیک ذوالفقار*


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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> the video coming up . i am uploading .



Still waiting...


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## yavar

SOHEIL said:


> Still waiting...


im uploading too slow enternet


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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> *Iran IRINN documentary "why missiles ?" مستند چرا موشک ؟*



It doesn't really answer why Missiles!!!

1. During the Iran-Iraq war and even till today they wouldn't even sell Iran parts for it's current fighters let alone sell Iran advanced fighters and due to lack of parts and ordinance Iran's Air force was running short in supply and the only weapon we could buy to respond to Saddam's Missile attacks were missiles

2. Tehrani Moghadam! It was his dream that made it possible and if it wasn't because of his organizational skill and relentless work we would not be where we are today and that is a FACT!!!!

3. Missiles alone can't make up for a lack of an air force BUT Iranian technology both in range and accuracy have reached to a point that we can target and hit Radars, SAM, Runway's, Aircraft Bunkers, Naval ports as far as 700km from our boarders. + longer range missiles that can greatly disrupt Air Bases operations up to 1600 km away

And any fighter that has to travel 700km just to get to Iranian boarders and without the help of ground based radars and SAM's will have extreme difficulty hitting high value targets inside Iran let alone gaining air superiority!
And with no Air Defense system it will be easier and safer for Iranian fighters to go in and take out other targets.

And because of these advances in Iranian missiles technology and PGM of all types and size the only type of advanced fighter Iran truly needs are Air Superiority fighters to protect it's troops, SAM sites and other assets from other aircrafts.

4.The fact that Iran has these capabilities deters any foolish attempts by any logical neighboring leader!


But all these don't preclude the fact that Iran is in dire need of an advanced air superiority fighter!

If Iran has to procure air superiority fighters as good as or superior to the F-14D! 

If we want to build it, it has to be a 2 engine Mach 2+ fighter equipped with, Air refueling, an IRST, BVR capabilities. Upgraded AWG/9 (Iran can easily build an upgraded AWG/9 radar by greatly increasing the processing power and adding a more advanced antenna. Iran has also demonstrated in it's air defense systems that it can produce a more accurate version of the Phoenix missiles with greater maneuverability, range and precision.

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## yavar

*Iran Zulfiqar multiple reentry vehicle (MRV) ballistic missile range 750KMموشک بالستیک ذوالفقار*

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## Draco.IMF

Do we have more infos about Khatam-5 & Khatam-7 missile system?
Whats its purpose?
Surface to air? Surfact to Surface? Anti ship?


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## Draco.IMF

Draco.IMF said:


> Do we have more infos about Khatam-5 & Khatam-7 missile system?
> Whats its purpose?
> Surface to air? Surfact to Surface? Anti ship?



I found some informations about Khatam misisle system
It was displayed already one year ago
Its a coastal defense anti-ship missile mobile launcher vehicle

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> I found some informations about Khatam misisle system
> It was displayed already one year ago
> Its a coastal defense anti-ship missile mobile launcher vehicle



*Iran Qadir,Khatam 5&7,cruise missiles systems سیستم موشکی کروز قدیر،خاتم ۵ و۷*

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## raptor22

yavar said:


> سردا سر لشكر باقرى امروز در سخنرانيش در رژه همچى را لو داد


چی رو لو داد؟

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## yavar

*Iran Zulfiqar,PersianGulf,Hormuz1&2 ballistic missilesموشک های بالستیک ذوالفقار,خلیج فارس,هرمز۱ و ۲*

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> im uploading too slow enternet



Uploading!?

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## SOHEIL

http://38north.org/2016/09/melleman092216/

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## yavar

خط تولید موشک نقطه زن ذوالفقارIran Ministry of Defense Zolfaghar SRBM production line






 
*سردار حسین دهقان وزیر دفاع: ۳ موشک برد بلند ایران در آینده نزدیک رونمایی خواهند شد*
از موشک های برد بلند و با دقت بالای قدیر، نسل جدید موشک سجیل و موشک خرمشهر به عنوان سه دستاوردی که در آینده نزدیک رونمایی خواهد شد نام برد

.



ممکن روز ازادی خرمشهر نشان بدند
remmber i said maybe things can change

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## yavar



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## Rukarl

@yavar In video ro bayad edit koni! in journalistha ahmagh raftan esmeh zolfiqar ro neveshtan ro fateh-313. As 0:59 ta bad ro delete kon!

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## yavar

Rukarl said:


> @yavar In video ro bayad edit koni! in journalistha ahmagh raftan esmeh zolfiqar ro neveshtan ro fateh-313. As 0:59 ta bad ro delete kon!


once i upload it you cant edit it


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## Rukarl

*Iran to produce 3 types of missiles by yearend: Defense minister*
Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:13AM


Iran’s defense chief says the Islamic Republic is set to unveil three new types of missiles in the coming months, adding that state-of-the-art ballistic missile Zolfaqar has been put on the production line.

Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan made the announcement at a plenary session of the parliament (Majlis) on Sunday.

Iran is observing the Sacred Defense Week, which marks the 36th anniversary of the eight-year Iraqi war against the country.

“We will begin manufacturing three fundamental products in the area of missile [development] by the end of the year,” said the Iranian minister, stressing that the latest defense achievements will greatly promote the country’s defense might.

*“These three missiles include Qadir, Sejil (solid-fuel long-range models) as well as high-precision Khorramshahr,” he added.*

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/25/486287/Iran-Hossein-Dehqan-Qadir

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## VEVAK

The New








VS

The Old







It's a 1.5 stage missile and it will be more accurate then the old mainly because to doesn't need to drag that body behind it!

and a small engine is plenty due to the lower gravity... also detection will be extremely difficult I don't think they'll even have a 10% interception rate with current tech

Every target from Iran to Riyadh can be taken out with deadly accuracy

Iran just needs to be producing these in the 1000's

If you look at every major military Air Base from google earth you will understand that you'll need 50-100 to totally wipe them out 20-50 to put them out of operation either way every bunker carrying SAM will have to be taken out and you'll need 3-10 on each runway or potential runway depending on size

If Iran takes out every Saudi Airbase, SAM & radar station within 650km of Iran the Saudi Air forces capability to do any major damage inside Iranian territory will go down to zilch

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## Arminkh

yavar said:


>


Holy .....! Iskander should go "Ghaz becheroone!"

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## Hassan Guy

Shame they stopped developing nuclear weapons because it was declared "haram". Does the missile program carry on because it's cheaper? Is it better then the Jewish missiles?


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## SOHEIL

Hassan Gay said:


> Shame they stopped developing nuclear weapons because it was declared "haram". Does the missile program carry on because it's cheaper? Is it better then the Jewish missiles?



Nuclear weapons are good for mass murdering !

Nothing more

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## Hassan Guy

SOHEIL said:


> Nuclear weapons are good for mass murdering !
> 
> Nothing more


They would be a good deterrent, something Iran could benefit from.


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## VEVAK

Hassan Guy said:


> Shame they stopped developing nuclear weapons because it was declared "haram". Does the missile program carry on because it's cheaper? Is it better then the Jewish missiles?



Nuclear weapons are only good as a deterrent and having the technology to produce them is deterrent enough! Iran will be like Japan in the next 15 year
Japan today can build 10's of nukes within a week probably up to 100
The tech and everything they need to do it is there but there is no reason to take it further unless absolutely required & Iran will reduces that timespan to weeks in less than 15 years.... Right now it will take Iran months but Iran is OK with that as long as it's a trade off for sanction but Iran WILL NOT build a nuke unless it's attack with WMD's or attacked by a country equipped with WMD's.

Israeli Missiles like their fighter jet that they build use American engines, imported rocket fuel, & they have to import every part or even the raw material to build the parts that they can build and this effects the cost of the missiles

A 2000km Missile that Iran can build for about $2m will costs Israel $10 million (And that's a simple Scud type that can reach Iran with a CEP of 1 KM) so for them 3-4 missiles costs at much as an F-16 so it makes no sense because they get their F-16 at a discounted price + US aid's that help them maintain it! 

Where as Iran would be forced to pay the U.S. $50 million for the same aircraft and with it's upkeep for a year it will cost over $120 Million and that's for a worthless F-16 that means to keep a crappy F-16 in your fleet for a year Iran can build 60 missiles just to keep one F-16 in it's fleet for a year.

Now for 100 F-16's in it's fleet Iran can get what? 6,000 missiles now lets say Iran wants to make these missiles more powerful and more accurate and they put another 2 Million worth of tech into it that's still 3,000 more accurate missiles vs 100 F-16's

Missiles don't take away Iran's need for interceptors and Air superiority fighters but they do take away Iran's need for aircraft like the F-16, J-10, JF-17,..

Iran has and is continuing to build more advanced UAV's to conduct air operation against terrorists and Iran can hit targets under a meter buy spending way under $20,000 for the ordinance, fuel and maintenance to take out a moving target with a CEP of 1 meter

while an F-16 to take out the same target with jet fuel, ordinance and maintenance $100,000 - $500,000 depending on the distance and the weapons you use and it's accuracy as I said a single SDB-2 costs $300,000 USD today a modern Maverick costs upwards of $100,000

The fact that Iran builds it's own weapons using home made raw materials and parts is what makes Iran the most powerful country in the region because in reality no country can financially afford to go to war with Iran.
And Iran's offensive capabilities in terms of accuracy has reached a point that you'd have to be suicidal because once your aircrafts drop their 1st bombs before they can even leave Iran's Air Space all the castles you built and the fancy toy's you purchased and you airbases and ports and power plants will be destroyed in a matter of minutes

U.S. knows this full well because if you spend a little time over Iran on Google Earth you'll see that Iran's general wasn't joking when he said that Iran has underground bases in every province and around every major city in Iran

And those are just the ones you can see nothing because some are far better hidden and some are bunkers that were built packed with weapons and then berried and most of Iran's weapons are inside bunkers even simple unguided rockets are in tunnels or bunkers

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## Aryzin

VEVAK said:


> Nuclear weapons are only good as a deterrent and having the technology to produce them is deterrent enough! Iran will be like Japan in the next 15 year
> Japan today can build 10's of nukes within a week probably up to 100
> The tech and everything they need to do it is there but there is no reason to take it further unless absolutely required & Iran will reduces that timespan to weeks in less than 15 years.... Right now it will take Iran months but Iran is OK with that as long as it's a trade off for sanction but Iran WILL NOT build a nuke unless it's attack with WMD's or attacked by a country equipped with WMD's.
> 
> Israeli Missiles like their fighter jet that they build use American engines, imported rocket fuel, & they have to import every part or even the raw material to build the parts that they can build and this effects the cost of the missiles
> 
> A 2000km Missile that Iran can build for about $2m will costs Israel $10 million (And that's a simple Scud type that can reach Iran with a CEP of 1 KM) so for them 3-4 missiles costs at much as an F-16 so it makes no sense because they get their F-16 at a discounted price + US aid's that help them maintain it!
> 
> Where as Iran would be forced to pay the U.S. $50 million for the same aircraft and with it's upkeep for a year it will cost over $120 Million and that's for a worthless F-16 that means to keep a crappy F-16 in your fleet for a year Iran can build 60 missiles just to keep one F-16 in it's fleet for a year.
> 
> Now for 100 F-16's in it's fleet Iran can get what? 6,000 missiles now lets say Iran wants to make these missiles more powerful and more accurate and they put another 2 Million worth of tech into it that's still 3,000 more accurate missiles vs 100 F-16's
> 
> Missiles don't take away Iran's need for interceptors and Air superiority fighters but they do take away Iran's need for aircraft like the F-16, J-10, JF-17,..
> 
> Iran has and is continuing to build more advanced UAV's to conduct air operation against terrorists and Iran can hit targets under a meter buy spending way under $20,000 for the ordinance, fuel and maintenance to take out a moving target with a CEP of 1 meter
> 
> while an F-16 to take out the same target with jet fuel, ordinance and maintenance $100,000 - $500,000 depending on the distance and the weapons you use and it's accuracy as I said a single SDB-2 costs $300,000 USD today a modern Maverick costs upwards of $100,000
> 
> The fact that Iran builds it's own weapons using home made raw materials and parts is what makes Iran the most powerful country in the region because in reality no country can financially afford to go to war with Iran.
> And Iran's offensive capabilities in terms of accuracy has reached a point that you'd have to be suicidal because once your aircrafts drop their 1st bombs before they can even leave Iran's Air Space all the castles you built and the fancy toy's you purchased and you airbases and ports and power plants will be destroyed in a matter of minutes
> 
> U.S. knows this full well because if you spend a little time over Iran on Google Earth you'll see that Iran's general wasn't joking when he said that Iran has underground bases in every province and around every major city in Iran
> 
> And those are just the ones you can see nothing because some are far better hidden and some are bunkers that were built packed with weapons and then berried and most of Iran's weapons are inside bunkers even simple unguided rockets are in tunnels or bunkers




VEVAK jan, az koja midani mushakhaye esraeli
CEPeshun yek kilometr hast? 3000 mushakha Bayad TEL daste bashand va chanta Gordan ya tip Sepah mitavane Estefade konad? Chand nafar dar yek gordan? Khial nemikoni ke Amrika ba SIGINT,HUMINT ya ELINT goosh mide be hameye guruhaye mushakye keshvar?

I doubt Israeli ballistic missiles have a CEP of 1 kilometers. 3000 missiles or more would require huge amounts of crews and indicators for such units would be lighting up the screens of opposing forces. The bunkers you talk about have already most probably been designated as targets. What is the organizational structure of a Sepah missile brigade? 10-12 TEL ? How much personnel is deployed/employed in a brigade of missile forces? Those units need logistical support, where do these units train? All these snd many more considerations have been checked and rechecked by those pondering action against Iran. If Iranian missiles are so accurate, don't you think Israeli ones are much more sophisticated and accurate since Israel has had a missile program for so much longer of a period? After all they sent their first satellites in space in the 80s. Personally I doubt Israelis would waste a ballistic missile of Jericho type when they can drop much more ordnance with their 100's of aircrafts.


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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> Holy .....! Iskander should go "Ghaz becheroone!"





Aryzin said:


> VEVAK jan, az koja midani mushakhaye esraeli
> CEPeshun yek kilometr hast? 3000 mushakha Bayad TEL daste bashand va chanta Gordan ya tip Sepah mitavane Estefade konad? Chand nafar dar yek gordan? Khial nemikoni ke Amrika ba SIGINT,HUMINT ya ELINT goosh mide be hameye guruhaye mushakye keshvar?
> 
> I doubt Israeli ballistic missiles have a CEP of 1 kilometers. 3000 missiles or more would require huge amounts of crews and indicators for such units would be lighting up the screens of opposing forces. The bunkers you talk about have already most probably been designated as targets. What is the organizational structure of a Sepah missile brigade? 10-12 TEL ? How much personnel is deployed/employed in a brigade of missile forces? Those units need logistical support, where do these units train? All these snd many more considerations have been checked and rechecked by those pondering action against Iran. If Iranian missiles are so accurate, don't you think Israeli ones are much more sophisticated and accurate since Israel has had a missile program for so much longer of a period? After all they sent their first satellites in space in the 80s. Personally I doubt Israelis would waste a ballistic missile of Jericho type when they can drop much more ordnance with their 100's of aircrafts.



Na goftam moshakashohon CEP 1 km e! Goftam agar Israel bekhad yek moshak ba CEP 1km va bordeh 2000 km besazeh bayad kam em kam $10 million bayad kharj koneh tazeh 2000km am na 1600 km

Israel moshak hash CEP kam tar as 1 km e va gheymateshoon ham besiar beshtar $20 million e
Hatta yek moshak ba CEP 200 meter barashoon $15-$20 million dar miyad va moshak hashoon mamollan 200 meter CEP daran choon hamashoon hastehi an

Eshtebosh mekoni!

1. Sepah dar on e vahed tavanai partobe beesh as 300 moshak e door bord ro dareh! Dar on e vohed! va dar haddeh aksar yek saat metoneh 300 ta degheh ro amadeh va launch koneh
va man bet hatta ghol medam beesh as 300 ta va moddat zamaneh launcheh badi ba sookhteh mayyeh ham zee yek saat e

2. Moshak ha e Sepah 100 ha meter zeererh zameenan an to bunker ha e havapayma keh neestan

3. Iran build's it's' own TEL's so don't assume to know how many TEL's Iran has that BS about 10-12 TEL are the TEL's Iran purchased in the 80's & 90's for it's SCUD's they are absolutely useless for Iranian Ghadir Class & Sejil Class missiles






The GBU-28 is a 4000 lb bomb that can only penetrate 30 meters of earth or 6 meters of concreate and the fuses don't always work like they should plus F-16's are incapable of carrying a 4000 lb bomb and enough fuel to get to Iran
and in fact the F-15 E are the only approved launched platform for Israel's most capable bunker buster and Israel only has 25 F-15's and they still can't take out a single underground Iranian missile facility

BLU-109 is lighter can be carried by an F-16 but at best it can only penetrate 4-6 ft (not meters ft) making it only good for aircraft and SAM bunkers not Ballistic Missile sites

GBU-39 is again lighter but can only penetrate 3ft it carries a 93kg warhead and it's CEP is 5-8 meters! 8 meters is 26ft! that again means it's only good for standard aircraft & UAV bunkers only you can't even hit Iranian SAM bunkers with them let alone missile facilities

and none of them have the accuracy and ground support necessary to hit 6ft x 6 ft heavily fortified blast door of Iranian Silos!

And who needs concreate? lets see if these weapons can penetrate modern blast doors & tech like 3ft of Kevlar, fiberglass & XXX reinforced with concreate!










http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...ers-in-exchange-for-not-striking-iran-2012-12















This video below is the oldest Iranian Silo built almost 20 years ago!






Iran just finished building a 5km tunnel for one of it's neighbors that goes across massive mountains

And that's just a foreign project

Have you ever been to a metro station in uptown Tehran? Iran's metro station is so deep in northern Tehran that Israel wouldn't even be able to target Iran's Metro let alone Iranian Missile sites

In fact there is only 1 bomb in the world that could take out Iran's Missile sites






It's a 30,000 lb $300 Million USD for a bomb the size of an F-16 and only 2 aircrafts can carry it the B-2 & the B-52

and Iran doesn't have 10 or 20 of these sites they have a lot more

Here is one site on google earth






I personally know the location of at least 7 other major sites like this and there are a lot more smaller more stealthy sites that are hidden

major sites aren't that hard to find if you spend a lot of time on google earth and the U.S. know exactly where they are because google earth pictures of the keep getting updated far baster than some Iranian air force bases

They are all made to take a nuclear blast now tell me how many aircraft can you send for this one site only???

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## Draco.IMF

Deam, they have build the Niayesh Tunnel within 12 months, second longest tunnel in Asia, lenth ~ 6.6 km
Ok, around 5000 people worked 24 hours/day in 3 shifts
I can olny imagine what they have build in ~ 20 years.
But can you employ 5000 workers to dig top secret tunnels?
5000 people would know where the tunnels are located.
can you keep a secret with 5000 working people?


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## Aryzin

Sepas gozaram va dorost hast Iran mushakha ye Ziad dare, montaha man rajebe TEL e kodemoon sohbat mikonam dadash. Agar miferestim 300 mushakye be doshman harbari ke shellik mikoni unha detection system darand. Harcheghad bishtar mushakha dashtim hamounghad mardom Bayad tamrinat bedim va support bedim. Khargesh ziad mishavad . Regards.


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## NaCon

VEVAK said:


> Na goftam moshakashohon CEP 1 km e! Goftam agar Israel bekhad yek moshak ba CEP 1km va bordeh 2000 km besazeh bayad kam em kam $10 million bayad kharj koneh tazeh 2000km am na 1600 km
> 
> Israel moshak hash CEP kam tar as 1 km e va gheymateshoon ham besiar beshtar $20 million e
> Hatta yek moshak ba CEP 200 meter barashoon $15-$20 million dar miyad va moshak hashoon mamollan 200 meter CEP daran choon hamashoon hastehi an
> 
> Eshtebosh mekoni!
> 
> 1. Sepah dar on e vahed tavanai partobe beesh as 300 moshak e door bord ro dareh! Dar on e vohed! va dar haddeh aksar yek saat metoneh 300 ta degheh ro amadeh va launch koneh
> va man bet hatta ghol medam beesh as 300 ta va moddat zamaneh launcheh badi ba sookhteh mayyeh ham zee yek saat e
> 
> 2. Moshak ha e Sepah 100 ha meter zeererh zameenan an to bunker ha e havapayma ka neestan
> 
> 3. Iran build's it's' own TEL's so don't assume to know how many TEL's Iran has that BS about 10-12 TEL are the TEL's Iran purchased in the 80's & 90's for it's SCUD's they are absolutely useless for Iranian Ghadir Class & Sejil Class missiles
> 
> View attachment 338603
> 
> 
> The GBU-28 is a 4000 lb bomb that can only penetrate 30 meters of earth or 6 meters of concreate and the fuses don't always work like they should plus F-16's are incapable of carrying a 4000 lb bomb and enough fuel to get to Iran
> and in fact the F-15 E are the only approved launched platform for Israel's most capable bunker buster and Israel only has 25 F-15's and they still can't take out a single underground Iranian missile facility
> 
> BLU-109 is lighter can be carried by an F-16 but at best it can only penetrate 4-6 ft (not meters ft) making it only good for aircraft and SAM bunkers not Ballistic Missile sites
> 
> GBU-39 is again lighter but can only penetrate 3ft it carries a 93kg warhead and it's CEP is 5-8 meters! 8 meters is 26ft! that again means it's only good for standard aircraft & UAV bunkers only you can't even hit Iranian SAM bunkers with them let alone missile facilities
> 
> and none of them have the accuracy and ground support necessary to hit 6ft x 6 ft heavily fortified blast door of Iranian Silos!
> 
> And who needs concreate? lets see if these weapons can penetrate modern blast doors & tech like 3ft of Kevlar, fiberglass & XXX reinforced with concreate!
> 
> View attachment 338632
> 
> 
> View attachment 338634
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video below is the oldest Iranian Silo built almost 20 years ago!
> 
> 
> 
> Iran just finished building a 5km tunnel for one of it's neighbors that goes across massive mountains
> 
> And that's just a foreign project
> 
> Have you ever been to a metro station in uptown Tehran? Iran's metro station is so deep in northern Tehran that Israel wouldn't even be able to target Iran's Metro let alone Iranian Missile sites
> 
> In fact there is only 1 bomb in the world that could take out Iran's Missile sites
> 
> 
> It's a 30,000 lb $300 Million USD for a bomb the size of an F-16 and only 2 aircrafts can carry it the B-2 & the B-52
> 
> and Iran doesn't have 10 or 20 of these sites they have a lot more
> 
> Here is one site on google earth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally know the location of at least 7 other major sites like this and there are a lot more smaller more stealthy sites that are hidden
> 
> major sites aren't that hard to find if you spend a lot of time on google earth and the U.S. know exactly where they are because google earth pictures of the keep getting updated far baster than some Iranian air force bases
> 
> They are all mad to take a nuclear blast now tell me how many aircraft can you send for this one site only???



Those bombs that they are getting aren't ment to be used against Iran, they are ment to be used against Hezbollah and Syria.

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## VEVAK

Draco.IMF said:


> Deam, they have build the Niayesh Tunnel within 12 months, second longest tunnel in Asia, lenth ~ 6.6 km
> Ok, around 5000 people worked 24 hours/day in 3 shifts
> I can olny imagine what they have build in ~ 20 years.
> But can you employ 5000 workers to dig top secret tunnels?
> 5000 people would know where the tunnels are located.
> can you keep a secret with 5000 working people?




Most of Iran's metro was done by the IRGC they have both the equipment and man power






This rig belongs to the IRGC and this is nothing they have larger ones



NaCon said:


> Those bombs that they are getting aren't ment to be used against Iran, they are ment to be used against Hezbollah and Syria.



Did you read the article I posted?

They wanted the bombs to attack Iran, Syria & Hezbullah!! They have always wanted bunker buster to attack Iran!!! now that reality has set in they suddenly never wanted it for Iran they just want bunker buster to go against Hezbollah!!!! LOL!

Hezbollah doesn't have bunkers!!! They have tunnels and you can't target a tunnel if you don't know where it is!!! at best you can target it's entrance and you don't need bunker busters to do that


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## Draco.IMF

VEVAK said:


> Most of Iran's metro was done by the IRGC they have both the equipment and man power
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This rig belongs to the IRGC and this is nothing they have larger ones



yes, but these rigs are made in germany/china/france, arent they?

http://www.iran-daily.com/News/128889.html

"
Iranian project managers and engineers had to use second-hand TBMs during sanctions, which led to the failure of a number of projects.

Having access to modern and first-hand technologies is needed to achieve great successes.

The lifting of Western sanctions will provide the ground for access to advanced technologies such as TBM.
"


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## Aryzin

French and German machines are the best. Chinese ones should be licensed from Germany.


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## VEVAK

Aryzin said:


> Sepas gozaram va dorost hast Iran mushakha ye Ziad dare, montaha man rajebe TEL e kodemoon sohbat mikonam dadash. Agar miferestim 300 mushakye be doshman harbari ke shellik mikoni unha detection system darand. Harcheghad bishtar mushakha dashtim hamounghad mardom Bayad tamrinat bedim va support bedim. Khargesh ziad mishavad . Regards.



Agher 300 ta launcher dari va 5 nafar ham masouleh har system boshan (For loading, fueling and launch) to 3 shift e kari am boshan mesheh 4,500 adam keh aslan cheezi neest and of the 5 you only need 1 highly trained expert that can direct everyone else....

hell even if you had 3000 manned TEL's that's still only 45,000 people! That is nothing!!! And I'm over estimating here!!! And this is only for liquid fueled missiles fired from TEL's 

Silo's & Solid fueled missiles take up far less manpower..... With Solid fuel you can have automated systems where less than 50 personnel can control 100's if not 1000's of missiles at each base


And you can have far more TEL's than personal all they have to do is drive out fire drive back and jump into the next text that's been readied for them and do it over and over again



Draco.IMF said:


> yes, but these rigs are made in germany/china/france, arent they?
> 
> http://www.iran-daily.com/News/128889.html
> 
> "
> Iranian project managers and engineers had to use second-hand TBMs during sanctions, which led to the failure of a number of projects.
> 
> Having access to modern and first-hand technologies is needed to achieve great successes.
> 
> The lifting of Western sanctions will provide the ground for access to advanced technologies such as TBM.
> "



Not really! That's just propaganda trying to support the JCPOA...

Go check out how many cities in Iran built metro lines under sanctions!

The video I posted in under 5 years they dug and fortified a 27km tunnel! does it sound like sanctions effected anything?

The *Tehran Metro* (Persian: متروی تهران‎‎, "Metro-ye Tehran") is a rapid transit system serving Tehran, the capital of Iran. The system consists of four operational metro lines (and a fifth commuter rail line), with construction begun on a further two lines in 2007.

The Tehran Metro carries more than 3 million passengers a day.[6] In 2014, 815 million trips were made on Tehran Metro. As of 2015[update], the total system was 170 kilometers (110 mi) long,[5] 127 kilometers (79 mi) of which it metro-grade rail. It is planned to have a length of 430 kilometers (270 mi) with 9 lines once all construction is complete by 2028.[7]

*Mashhad Urban Railway[edit]*
The Mashhad Urban Railway is urban rail line in Mashhad, construction on line one began in 1999 and was opened on 24 April 2011. Line two is currently under construction. Mashhad Urban Railway operates its single line from 6:30 to 21:30 daily. It has a daily ridership of 130 000 passengers and has a total length of 24 kilometres (14.9 mi).

*Isfahan Metro[edit]*
The Isfahan Metro is a metro system serving Isfahan, the construction for line one commenced in 2001 and was finally opened to the public on 15 October 2015. Line one has a total length of 11 kilometres. The city is planning a second East to West line to serve the city.

*Shiraz Metro[edit]*
The Shiraz Metro is a rapid transit system in Shiraz, line one was officially inaugurated on 11 October 2014 after being in construction since 2011, the single line has a length of 10.5 kilometres (6.5 mi) and stops at six stations. Line 2 is currently under construction and has a length of 15 kilometres (9.3 mi). The metro currently has a daily ridership of 500 000 passengers with 27 trains in operation.

*Tabriz Metro[edit]*
The Tabriz Metro is a metro system serving the city of Tabriz, the first line was opened on 28 August 2015 with a 7 kilometre length and six stations. There is also a regional commuter line planned to the city of Sahand. Line one runs Northwest from El Goli Station to Ostad Shahriar Station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Metro

On top of this Iran goes to Tajikistan and builds a 5km tunnel in the mountains

The actual tunnel was completed in 2006... IRGC doesn't have 1 or 2 of these devices they have 10's of them


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## VEVAK

2015


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## VEVAK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrenknecht


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## NaCon

VEVAK said:


> Most of Iran's metro was done by the IRGC they have both the equipment and man power
> 
> 
> Hezbollah doesn't have bunkers!!! They have tunnels and you can't target a tunnel if you don't know where it is!!! at best you can target it's entrance and you don't need bunker busters to do that


where do you think they hide/store their 100000+ missiles and rockets in buildings and houses .


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## Fafnir

Draco.IMF said:


> yes, but these rigs are made in germany/china/france, arent they?
> 
> http://www.iran-daily.com/News/128889.html
> 
> "
> Iranian project managers and engineers had to use second-hand TBMs during sanctions, which led to the failure of a number of projects.
> 
> Having access to modern and first-hand technologies is needed to achieve great successes.
> 
> The lifting of Western sanctions will provide the ground for access to advanced technologies such as TBM.
> "


Actually its very common to reuse large expensive machines like tbms,in some projects the manufacturers have a buy back option so they can re use parts of them or recondition them for a new project.


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## Aramagedon

NaCon said:


> where do you think they hide/store their 100000+ missiles and rockets in buildings and houses .


Underground.

Silly Iran every year produces almost 1 million cars producing some thousands missiles isn't hard.

However when they land in our enemies countries that would be hard for our enemies.

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## NaCon

2800 said:


> Underground.
> 
> Silly Iran every year produces almost 1 million cars producing some thousands missiles isn't hard.
> 
> However when they land in our enemies countries that would be hard for our enemies.


Are you familiar with sarcasm


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## Tanker88

*Iran to mass-produce newly introduced ballistic missile*

http://echelon-defense.com/2016/09/28/iran-to-mass-produce-newly-introduced-ballistic-missile/

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## VEVAK

NaCon said:


> where do you think they hide/store their 100000+ missiles and rockets in buildings and houses .



They hide them in the tunnels not in a fortified bunker like an Aircraft Bunker that can be seen and targeted!!! If they were in Aircraft type bunkers the Israeli Air Force could have taken them out in a week!

They are all underground tunnels the Israeli's know it because they found a few in the south near the boarder....


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## Stryker1982

Tanker88 said:


> *Iran to mass-produce newly introduced ballistic missile*



Why so much focus on Ballistic missiles, aren't cruise missiles better at defeating air defense systems. The Americans used them plentiful in the persian gulf war. Iran should be mass producing cruise missiles and using VLS tech on their ships. Strike any land target anywhere in the world.



Tanker88 said:


> *Iran to mass-produce newly introduced ballistic missile*



Why so much focus on Ballistic missiles, aren't cruise missiles better at defeating air defense systems. The Americans used them plentiful in the persian gulf war. Iran should be mass producing cruise missiles and using VLS tech on their ships. Strike any land target anywhere in the world.


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## Arminkh

Stryker1982 said:


> Why so much focus on Ballistic missiles, aren't cruise missiles better at defeating air defense systems. The Americans used them plentiful in the persian gulf war. Iran should be mass producing cruise missiles and using VLS tech on their ships. Strike any land target anywhere in the world.


No, Ballistic missiles are harder to intercept because they fly at speeds several times that of sound while the cruise missiles are usually either sub sonic or between 1-2 Mach. Don't forget US went against a countries like Iraq or Afghanistan that simply didn't have any means to intercept jet fighters let alone cruise missiles. 

A well armed country should be able to either intercept the cruise missiles or just change their route by jamming the GPS signals.


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## yavar

Iran IRINN documentary "why missiles ?" P2-3 مستند چرا موشک ؟

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## mohsen

*Syrian Government Forces Use Iranian Anti-Tank Missiles against Militants in Southern Aleppo (Video)*

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## Aramagedon

mohsen said:


> *Syrian Government Forces Use Iranian Anti-Tank Missiles against Militants in Southern Aleppo (Video)*


Good. let's roast some wahhabi thugs.

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## yavar



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## yavar

سردار حسین سلامی : مرکز مواد پیشرفته و نانوفناوری دانشگاه امام حسین (ع) 




افتتاح مرکز مواد پیشرفته و نانوفناوری دانشگاه امام حسین (ع)
مرکز مواد پیشرفته و نانوفناوری دانشگاه جامع امام حسین (ع) صبح امروز سه‌شنبه با حضور سردار حسین سلامی جانشین فرمانده کل سپاه و سردار حسنی‌آهنگر فرمانده دانشگاه جامع امام حسین (ع) افتتاح شد. این مرکز دارای 7 آزمایشگاه تخصصی در حوزه ساخت و مشخصه یابی مواد پیشرفته و نانوفناوری و غیره است. همچنین گروه مواد فتونیکی و الکترونیکی گروه مواد الکترومغناطیسی و گروه مواد ساختاری از جمله گروه‌های تحقیقاتی این مرکز محسوب می‌شود. آزمایشگاه‌های این مرکز عبارتند از: آزمایشگاه سنتز یک و 2، خواص مکانیکی،‌ مشخصه‌یابی، تولید پودر، قطعه‌سازی پیشرفته و لایه نشانی پیشرفته است.
http://www.mashreghnews.ir/fa/news/647464/افتتاح-مرکز-مواد-پیشرفته-و-نانوفناوری-دانشگاه-امام-حسین-ع
سردار حسین سلامی جانشین فرمانده کل سپاه در حاشیه مراسم افتتاح مرکز مواد پیشرفته و نانوفناوری دانشگاه جامع امام حسین اظهار داشت: مواد نقش تعیین‌کننده‌ای در سیستم‌ها، تجهیزات و سلاح‌های نظامی دارند و این مرکز به منظور بررسی و تجزیه و تحلیل پیرامون خواص مواد و تاثیر آن در موضوعات دفاعی تشکیل شده است.
وی افزود: به عنوان مثال ما در بحث موشک‌ها به مواد رادارگریز نیاز داریم که یکی از وظایف این مرکز بررسی خواص الکترومغناطیسی سیستم‌های تسلیحاتی است.
جانشین فرمانده کل سپاه تاکید کرد: دستیابی به مواد ترکیبی و کامپوزیتی برای کاهش حجم و سطح برای تجهیزات هوا فضا و سلاح‌های زمینی از دیگر اقدامات این مرکز خواهد بود.
جانشین فرمانده کل سپاه گفت: در این مرکز تراز جدیدی از پیشرفت علم مواد نمایش داده خواهد شد و امیدواریم مرجعیت علمی دراین کشور در این حوزه را کسب کنیم
سلامی در پایان اعلام کرد که جهت‌گیری اصلی این مرکز بحث دفاعی است.
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13950804000470

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## timalenusa

the all setup was good . thnakyou for the post


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## yavar



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## yavar

*




فیروزآبادی*: شلیک «عماد» را حضرت آقا تصویب کردند. ببینید هیچ موشکی در این کشور شلیک نمی‌شود مگر اینکه مصوبه فرمانده‌کل قوا را داشته باشد
موشکی ساخته می‌شود، وقتی آن موشک به مرحله تست می‌رسد باید مصوبه از «آقا» گرفته شود که همان موشک تست شود. برای شلیک باید از آقا اجازه گرفته شود، حتی برای شلیک در رزمایش‌ها هم باید از محضر رهبر انقلاب مجوز گرفته شود.

شلیک موشک بدون اجازه مستقیم فرمانده‌کل قوا امکان ندارد،​https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...تمان-ادعایی-آمانو-در-پارچین-سرویس-بهداشتی-بود


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## f1000n

There is news about Iraq securing a deal to manufacture Fateh 110 missiles, any news from your side about this. This makes sense as in a video an Iraqi official stated they will produce ground-ground missiles of 250KM range which is the range of Fateh 110 2nd generation. Specific details are unknown, might be another generation. Transfer of tech deals is what they're looking for more lately, this could revive Iraq's ballistic missile program.. as in the past.


Not long ago:

Hussein Sheikh al-Islam, the advisor to the Iranian foreign affairs minister, said Iranian missiles are not only manufactured in Syria but in other countries in the region as well.

He said Iran expanded its missiles’ production outside its borders due to the “increasing Israeli threats in the region.”

Although he did not reveal much about the production Iranian missiles, he said Iraq is one of the countries where ballistic missiles are produced.

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## husseinibnali

f1000n said:


> There is news about Iraq securing a deal to manufacture Fateh 110 missiles, any news from your side about this. This makes sense as in a video an Iraqi official stated they will produce ground-ground missiles of 250KM range which is the range of Fateh 110 2nd generation. Specific details are unknown, might be another generation. Transfer of tech deals is what they're looking for more lately, this could revive Iraq's ballistic missile program.. as in the past.
> 
> 
> Not long ago:
> 
> Hussein Sheikh al-Islam, the advisor to the Iranian foreign affairs minister, said Iranian missiles are not only manufactured in Syria but in other countries in the region as well.
> 
> He said Iran expanded its missiles’ production outside its borders due to the “increasing Israeli threats in the region.”
> 
> Although he did not reveal much about the production Iranian missiles, he said Iraq is one of the countries where ballistic missiles are produced.


Could you give us a link of the video of the Iraqi official statement?

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## f1000n

husseinibnali said:


> Could you give us a link of the video of the Iraqi official statement?



@1:14. "production of ground-ground missiles of 250KM range"





There's also that confirmation from the Iranian foreign minister and a reliable Iraqi military source.

But say that is true, what does it add to the ISF in terms of capabilities, it's a deterring weapon? It won't be able to reach many major cities outside the country with 250KM range. Also i'm not sure why they're after ballistic missiles now.

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## husseinibnali

f1000n said:


> @1:14. "production of ground-ground missiles of 250KM range"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's also that confirmation from the Iranian foreign minister and a reliable Iraqi military source.
> 
> But say that is true, what does it add to the ISF in terms of capabilities, it's a deterring weapon? It won't be able to reach many major cities outside the country with 250KM range. Also i'm not sure why they're after ballistic missiles now.


It depends on the capabilities of missiles they are talking about!'

We know nothing about this topic so we can't judge,time will tell!

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## mohsen

f1000n said:


> There is news about Iraq securing a deal to manufacture Fateh 110 missiles, any news from your side about this. This makes sense as in a video an Iraqi official stated they will produce ground-ground missiles of 250KM range which is the range of Fateh 110 2nd generation. Specific details are unknown, might be another generation. Transfer of tech deals is what they're looking for more lately, this could revive Iraq's ballistic missile program.. as in the past.
> 
> 
> Not long ago:
> 
> Hussein Sheikh al-Islam, the advisor to the Iranian foreign affairs minister, said Iranian missiles are not only manufactured in Syria but in other countries in the region as well.
> 
> He said Iran expanded its missiles’ production outside its borders due to the “increasing Israeli threats in the region.”
> 
> Although he did not reveal much about the production Iranian missiles, he said Iraq is one of the countries where ballistic missiles are produced.


There is no such a news in Persian sources.
also Sheikh al-Islam didn't mention Iraq.

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## yavar

f1000n said:


> But say that is true, what does it add to the ISF in terms of capabilities, it's a deterring weapon? It won't be able to reach many major cities outside the country with 250KM range. Also i'm not sure why they're after ballistic missiles now.


my brother this is what they have to say . because by international law you only allowed to sell only blow 300 KM ground to ground ballistic missile, anything over that it would bring unwanted political or international problems .
so they going to sign or say 200 KM or 299 KM agreement or say the same thing



husseinibnali said:


> It depends on the capabilities of missiles they are talking about!'
> We know nothing about this topic so we can't judge,time will tell!



the capabilities will be what they need for ............
but it will be announced as normal not accurate


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## Fafnir

yavar said:


> my brother this is what they have to say . because by international law you only allowed to sell only blow 300 KM ground to ground ballistic missile, anything over that it would bring unwanted political or international problems .


Thats not correct.That only applies to countries that are members of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) which neither iran nor iraq are,theres nothing to stop iran from supplying missiles to whoever it likes,indeed iran has already supplied the fateh 110 to syria who produces their own version as the m-600.


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## Draco.IMF

so iran selling ballistic missiles to an ex-enemie, Iraq?
and what if they turn again against iran and this missile will be pointed at iran cities?

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## KhuderMosavi

Draco.IMF said:


> so iran selling ballistic missiles to an ex-enemie, Iraq?
> and what if they turn again against iran and this missile will be pointed at iran cities?


Iraqi shias will attack iranian shias you mean?

Dream on

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## mohsen

Draco.IMF said:


> so iran selling ballistic missiles to an ex-enemie, Iraq?
> and what if they turn again against iran and this missile will be pointed at iran cities?


in this world there couldn't be any closer ally to Iran than Iraq. the previous war was the result of a dictator whom was brought to power by west to suppress the majority Shiahs in Iraq. during that war we captured mercenaries from 18 different countries, do you know what it means?

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## VEVAK

mohsen said:


> in this world there couldn't be any closer ally to Iran than Iraq. the previous war was the result of a dictator whom was brought to power by west to suppress the majority Shiahs in Iraq. during that war we captured mercenaries from 18 different countries, do you know what it means?






Draco.IMF said:


> so iran selling ballistic missiles to an ex-enemie, Iraq?
> and what if they turn again against iran and this missile will be pointed at iran cities?



Do you know how Shia's came to be? Before the 1500's A.D. all Iranians were Sunni! If you read the history you'll understand that every Arab speaking Shia from Lebanon to Iran is of Iranian decent!!! Kurds are Iranic ppls! so aside from our faith, they are our brothers! And I'm not saying Iran somehow has the right to takeover Iraq NO! Iran has no such right! But they are OUR brother!!! Same with Azerbaijan but they just have to get over what happened with Armenia! Armanians are our brothers too & two of our brothers were fighting and Azerbaijan was wrong & we told them to stop! Now their all upset!!!!!!!!!! But same with them!

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## yavar

*Iran Gen Salami:US congress passing ISA sanction for decade&its effect on missile power سردار سلامی*


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## TruthHurtz

His parents named him Salami because of his father's life-long affection towards the fermented meat. He was unfortunately disowned by his family when he revealed his love and undying loyalty to Bologna sausage at only 15 years of age, he was banished from the household where he then joined the IRGC to help counter the common stereotype that Salami's can't love Bologna. He carries on his family name out of respect for his origins.


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## Friendly

Iran has taken big strides in manufacturing top attack weapons and advanced anti-armored missiles, a senior military official said.

“Important measures have been taken in the field of top attack weapons and producing smart rockets and anti-armored missiles and with different extra capabilities,” Head of Iran Ground Force’s Research and Self-Sufficiency Jihad Organization General Seyed Massoud Zawareyee told Fars News Agency (FNA).

“Concurrent with the development of enhanced armored equipment by other countries, the anti-armored weapons should also improve and we have adopted proper measures in this field. The new weapons will be unveiled gradually,” he added.

His remarks came after Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh underscored Iran’s self-sufficiency in different defensive fields, and said the country will powerfully continue its progress in manufacturing different missiles.

No matter what the enemies do and even if they try to impose restrictions on Iran, “we will not stop enhancement of our capability, knowledge and production in defense fields, specially the missile industry”, Hajizadeh said, addressing Iranian university officials and professors in Tehran last week.

Stressing the important role played by universities and academic centers in increasing Iran's capabilities, he said: “Today, we have gained self-sufficiency in different defense fields.”

Hajizadeh had also announced earlier this month that the country has increased the number of its ballistic missiles, while increasing their precision-striking capability.

“In addition to enhancing the precision-striking power and quality of ballistic missiles, the Iranian authorities and experts have used innovative and shortcut methods to produce inexpensive missiles and today, we are witnessing an increase in production of ballistic missiles,” General Hajizadeh said.

Noting that Iran has settled its problems and become self-sufficient in the field of defense and military activities, especially in strategic fields, he said that the country’s experts have been able to boost missiles’ precision-striking power to the utmost.


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## yavar

*KCTV DPRK North Korea medium long-range strategic ballistic missile Hwasong-10 موشک هوآسونگ-۱۰*

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/825729106016948224
#IRGC General Hossein Salami :

" Iran Can Make Ballistic Missiles Capable of Hitting moving Targets " ( pic: EMAD missile )

https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/...s-capable-of-hitting-moving-targets-commander








Qiam-1 ( antenna "fins" downward facing for better accuracy + course changing )

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## AmirPatriot

Draco.IMF said:


> #IRGC General Hossein Salami :
> 
> " Iran Can Make Ballistic Missiles Capable of Hitting moving Targets " ( pic: EMAD missile )


I think he is talking about the Fateh and Khalij Fars series of BMs though (and they're actually quasi ballistic missiles).

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## yavar

*Iran Gen Dehqan confirms Khorramshahr ballistic missile test, سردار دهقان آزمایش موشکی را تایید کرد*






وزیر دفاع آزمایش موشکی جدید ایران را تایید کرد
سردار حسین دهقان وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی امروز در حاشیه جلسه دولت در جمع خبرنگاران در واکنش به جلسه شورای امنیت سازمان ملل در خصوص تست موشکی ایران گفت: آنچه که مطرح شده است در مورد تست‌های موشکی باید بگویم که هیچ مغایرتی نه با برجام دارد و نه با قطعنامه 2231.

وی افزود: تست اخیر در برنامه‌های جاری ما بوده است و ما همواره اعلام کرده‌ایم که برنامه‌های خودمان را در حوزه تولیدات اقلام دفاعی برای دفاع از منافع ملی همواره همان‌گونه که برنامه‌ریزی کرده‌ایم، ادامه می‌دهیم و هیچ‌ چیز نمی‌تواند برنامه و اهداف ما را تحت تأثیر قرار دهد.

وزیر دفاع تصریح کرد: در دنیایی که قدرت‌ها این‌گونه اُشتُلم می‌کنند، یک ملت زنده باید همواره در بالاترین سطوح، خود را آماده دفاع کند و آنچه که به عنوان تست موشکی مطرح شده است، در ادامه برنامه‌های ما بوده است و ما برنامه‌های خود را مطابق با دستوری که رئیس‌جمهور در اواخر سال گذشته ابلاغ کرد، با سرعت و دقت بیشتری ادامه می‌دهیم.
http://tn.ai/1314952
Iran confirms missile test, spurns foreign intervention
Iran confirms it recently carried out a missile test within the framework of its defense program, saying the Islamic Republic does not allow any foreign intervention in affairs concerning its defensive prowess.
“The recent test has been in line with our [defense] program, and we do not let any foreigner intervene in our defense affairs,” Defense Minister Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan said on Wednesday.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/02/01/508673/Iran-Dehqan-Resolution-2231-JCPOA

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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> *Iran Gen Dehqan confirms Khorramshahr ballistic missile test, سردار دهقان آزمایش موشکی را تایید کرد*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> وزیر دفاع آزمایش موشکی جدید ایران را تایید کرد
> سردار حسین دهقان وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی امروز در حاشیه جلسه دولت در جمع خبرنگاران در واکنش به جلسه شورای امنیت سازمان ملل در خصوص تست موشکی ایران گفت: آنچه که مطرح شده است در مورد تست‌های موشکی باید بگویم که هیچ مغایرتی نه با برجام دارد و نه با قطعنامه 2231.
> 
> وی افزود: تست اخیر در برنامه‌های جاری ما بوده است و ما همواره اعلام کرده‌ایم که برنامه‌های خودمان را در حوزه تولیدات اقلام دفاعی برای دفاع از منافع ملی همواره همان‌گونه که برنامه‌ریزی کرده‌ایم، ادامه می‌دهیم و هیچ‌ چیز نمی‌تواند برنامه و اهداف ما را تحت تأثیر قرار دهد.
> 
> وزیر دفاع تصریح کرد: در دنیایی که قدرت‌ها این‌گونه اُشتُلم می‌کنند، یک ملت زنده باید همواره در بالاترین سطوح، خود را آماده دفاع کند و آنچه که به عنوان تست موشکی مطرح شده است، در ادامه برنامه‌های ما بوده است و ما برنامه‌های خود را مطابق با دستوری که رئیس‌جمهور در اواخر سال گذشته ابلاغ کرد، با سرعت و دقت بیشتری ادامه می‌دهیم.
> http://tn.ai/1314952
> Iran confirms missile test, spurns foreign intervention
> Iran confirms it recently carried out a missile test within the framework of its defense program, saying the Islamic Republic does not allow any foreign intervention in affairs concerning its defensive prowess.
> “The recent test has been in line with our [defense] program, and we do not let any foreigner intervene in our defense affairs,” Defense Minister Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan said on Wednesday.
> http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/02/01/508673/Iran-Dehqan-Resolution-2231-JCPOA



Having so much news about Iran's space program points to a failed SLV launch! And if the missile traveled 1000 km then burned on reentry then the 1st stage went fine, they got a clean separation of the 2nd stage but had some problems with the 2nd stage during flight either because of one of the engines or loss of control.
There is no shame in having failed launches and Iran should stop acting like there is! Iranians need to learn that having failed launches is part of doing business & it's not possible to have a space program without them!


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## rahi2357

VEVAK said:


> Having so much news about Iran's space program points to a failed SLV launch! And if the missile traveled 1000 km then burned on reentry then the 1st stage went fine, they got a clean separation of the 2nd stage but had some problems with the 2nd stage during flight either because of one of the engines or loss of control.
> There is no shame in having failed launches and Iran should stop acting like there is! Iranians need to learn that having failed launches is part of doing business & it's not possible to have a space program without them!


Yep , But my 6th sense tells me it was our version of this :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwasong-10


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## VEVAK

rahi2357 said:


> Yep , But my 6th sense tells me it was our version of this :
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwasong-10



Other than for the space program, I don's see Iran expanding on it's liquid fuel missiles. Iran has and wants to continue to have large stockpiles of ballistic missiles & liquid fueled missiles take up twice the space for storage, require more personal, requires more maintenance, upkeep, prep time, larger facilities,....

Iran has such a large stockpile that storage is a problem as is fueling each missiles and prepping them for launch so if anything Iran will gradually move away from Liquid fuel for military use!

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## Arminkh

rahi2357 said:


> Yep , But my 6th sense tells me it was our version of this :
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwasong-10


You mean they destroyed it in its path to conceal its actual range? Could be maybe that's where all this fuss is coming from.

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## rahi2357

VEVAK said:


> Other than for the space program, I don's see Iran expanding on it's liquid fuel missiles. Iran has and wants to continue to have large stockpiles of ballistic missiles & liquid fueled missiles take up twice the space for storage, require more personal, requires more maintenance, upkeep, prep time, larger facilities,....
> 
> Iran has such a large stockpile that storage is a problem as is fueling each missiles and prepping them for launch so if anything Iran will gradually move away from Liquid fuel for military use!


Months ago Defence minister said " 3 different kinds of long range missiles , a solid one , new version of sejil which is solid and khoramshahr missile ." (He didn't say 3 solid fueled missiles )
On the other hand some experts have already claimed the recent test was khoramshahr missile.
1000 km for first stage and exploded !( which means 1000 km wasn't full range cuz it still had some fuel to explode ) That is too much for first stage of a SLV .Maybe a GSLV which I would say no .As you know bro , the trajectory of space launchs is different .


Arminkh said:


> You mean they destroyed it in its path to conceal its actual range? Could be maybe that's where all this fuss is coming from.


Nah bro , I didn't mean that .You don't have to test it with full range .No need to explode it .Just put less fuel in it or simply change trajectory .
.In fact this missile ( modified R 27 aka musudan ) is too much unstable .First , Russians sold these to DPRK but sounds like they changed some parts of the missile for some reason .DPRK had tested it 6 times .Just one succesful test , the rest , exploded .One of them on launch pad !
Though I am not 100% sure about the recent test .My 6th sense tells me

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## yavar

VEVAK said:


> Having so much news about Iran's space program points to a failed SLV launch!!


which ones ??



VEVAK said:


> 2nd stage but had some problems with the 2nd stage during flight either because of one of the engines or loss of control.


and can you tell us how many stage is Khorramshahr missile is ??


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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> which ones ??
> 
> 
> and can you tell us how many stage is Khorramshahr missile is ??



http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/02/01/508638/Iran-Rouhani-National-Aerospace-Technology-Day-Dehqan








I don't know much about the Khorramshahr Missile but my guess is that it would be along the lines of Iran's continued path towards expanding it's Solid Fuel variants so it will defiantly have 1.5 stages or more!

Iran needs something in between the Zolfaghar & Sajil-2 missile for targets between 700km to 1,500km Iran could also build a 3 stage version for greater range if needed

What ever it was it burned upon reentry that's another indication that it was a failed SLV launch. There is NO shame in having failed launches even the most advanced countries in the world have failed launches. You can't have a space program without them.


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## PeeD

If Iran has vast access to ballistic missile technology, much more than shown up to ICBM level, then one scenario for the unknown Khorramshahr missile would make it really ground breaking: A solid fuel large diameter (~2m), short length, single stage missile of max. 2000km range and a throwwight of 5 tons delivered by a MIRV with PBV bus (Saman-1 based) and 4, 1ton re-entry vehicles (stealthy ones). 
This could maintain Irans 2000km policy due to the single stage, but could crate doubts among europeans and americans, although the single stage would be a credible assurance for the range limitation. The 4 RVs would compensate the increased cost of a solid fuel missile and the PBV and indirectly show Irans high ICBM level capabilities to the world.

However I have the feeling that we are still 5 years away from such a missile and I have doubts whether they think they could credibly convince the west that its just a 2000km range missile (with a single RV it could have IRBM range of 4000-5000km...).
Its a nice thought that the "failed" Khorramshahr at the re entry stage would be due to the release of the stealthy RVs which would look like the single RV has disintegrated in several small parts at re entry.


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## Surenas

Dehghan now claims that the Khorramshahr missile test was successful:

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1395/11/14/1315991/وزیر-دفاع-آزمایش-موشکی-اخیر-موفقیت-آمیز-بود

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## yavar

*Iran DM Gen Dehqan:recent Khorramshahr missile test was"successful" سردار دهقان: آزمایش موفقیت‌ آمیز*






وزیر دفاع: آزمایش موشکی اخیر "موفقیت‌آمیز" بود
وزیر دفاع، آزمایش موشکی اخیر کشورمان را موفقیت‌آمیز اعلام کرد.
سردار حسین دهقان وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح در گفت‌وگوی اختصاصی به خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم با اشاره به آزمایش موشکی اخیر کشورمان، گفت: این آزمایش موشکی موفقیت‌آمیز بوده است.
وی افزود: تست‌های موشکی ایران هیچ مغایرتی با برجام و قطعنامه 2231 نداشته و ندارد.
http://tn.ai/1315991

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## Draco.IMF

Any infos about the Khorramshahr missile?

Solid/Liquid?
How many stages?
Range?
CEP?
Warhead?
Purpose?


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## Hindustani78

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1048971/world


DUBAI: An Iranian military commander said on Saturday that his country would use its missiles against its enemies if they threaten the country’s security.


"If the enemy does not walk the line, our missiles come down on them," Brig. Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh, head of the Revolutionary Guards’ aerospace unit, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.

“We are working day and night to protect Iran’s security. If we see smallest misstep from the enemies, our roaring missiles will fall on their heads,” Hajizadeh was also quoted in another report by Tasnim news agency.

Hajizadeh's comments come during a military exercise by the Revolutionary Guard aimed at testing its missile and radar systems.

The exercise comes a day after US President Donald Trump's administration imposed sanctions on Iran for a recent missile test.

The United States sanctioned 13 individuals and 12 entities related to Iran’s missile program and Trump’s national security adviser Michael Flynn said the United States was putting Iran on notice over its “destabilizing activity.”

The Guards’ Sepahnews website said the maneuvers in the northeastern province of Semnan were aimed at demonstrating their “complete preparedness to deal with the threats” and “humiliating sanctions” from Washington.

“Different types of domestically produced radar and missile systems, command and control centers, and cyber warfare systems will be used in this exercise,” it said.

A list of the missiles to be deployed published later on the website showed they were of very short range — up to 75 kilometers (47 miles).


Although tensions between Washington and Iran have risen, US Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said on Saturday he was not considering raising the number of US forces in the Middle East to address Iran’s “misbehavior” at this time, but warned that the world would not ignore Iranian activities.

Iran has one of the Middle East’s largest missile programs and held a similar exercise in December to showcase its defense systems, including radars, anti-missile defense units, and short and medium-range missiles.

Tehran confirmed on Wednesday that it had test-fired a new ballistic missile, but said the test did not breach the Islamic Republic’s nuclear agreement with world powers or a UN Security Council resolution endorsing the pact.

Iran has test-fired several ballistic missiles since the nuclear deal in 2015, but the latest test was the first since Trump entered the White House. Trump said during his election campaign that he would stop Iran’s missile program.

The United Nations Security Council held an emergency meeting on Tuesday and recommended the missile testing be studied at committee level. The new US ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, called the test “unacceptable.”

The Security Council resolution was adopted to buttress the deal under which Iran curbed its nuclear activities to allay concerns they could be used to develop atomic bombs, in exchange for relief from economic sanctions.
The resolution urged Tehran to refrain from work on ballistic missiles designed to deliver nuclear weapons. Critics say the resolution’s language does not make this obligatory.

Tehran says it has not carried out any work on missiles specifically designed to carry nuclear payloads.


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## WarFariX

>>Iran's Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) test-fired new missiles in the ongoing air defense drills on Saturday.

The missiles included home-made short-range and medium-range systems, the report said.

The indigenous missile of 3-Khordad, which was test-fired on Saturday, has a range of 75km and can soar to altitudes up to 30 km.

It is capable of engaging in electronic warfare and incorporates the latest cutting-edge technology and scrambling on multiple targets in lower radar cross-section (RCS).

Another tested missile of Tabas has a range of 60 km and soars to the altitude of 30 km. It is designed and manufactured by the IRGC and is highly agile in offensive and defensive positions.

The third one tested was Sayyad-2 missile system which has the same features as Tabas and has been designed by Iranian Ministry of Defense, according to Mehr.

Also, IRGC deployed three radar systems in the drills on Saturday. Ghadir long-range radar system with 3D detecting feature can capture the aerial threats as far as 1100 km away.

Ghadir is capable of detecting stealth drones and other aerial vehicles and can even trace the targets.

Matla'alfajr and Kavosh radar systems are capable of detecting the threats up to 500km and 150km respectively. They can also detect cruise missiles and drones flying in lower altitudes.

#SkyWing


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## ashool

iran made new version fajr 5 missile the guided missile


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## ashool



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## yavar

*Iran Fajr-5-C 333 mm Guided rocket & TEL, Manpad Misagh-3, راکت هدایت شونده ۳۳۳ میلیمتری فجر۵-سی*










"For the first time in its history, the Institute for the Study of War noted in a report last week, Iran has developed the capacity to project conventional military force for hundreds of miles beyond its borders. “This capability, which very few states in the world have, will fundamentally alter the strategic calculus and balance of power within the Middle East,” the institute said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...b11ed7d8d2a_story.html?utm_term=.563a15b82ad4

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## Hack-Hook

Well as of now fair-5 is no longer a rocket and must be referred as a missile .

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## yavar

Iran Fajr-5-C 333-mm Guided rocket and launcher system سامانه راکت هدایت شونده ۳۳۳ میلیمتری فجر۵-سی

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## Draco.IMF

it would be soooo pity if Fajr-5 and Misagh-3 would be "lost" to Hezbollah

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## yavar

موشک بالستیک برکانYemeni resistance MRBM ballistic missile Berkane-2 range 1000 KM ۲




now what Trump the Bullsh@ter .what you do now ?? come on bring on
more sanction empty threat or what ?? these are not Scud missile all barndnew
.
=========================================

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## Draco.IMF

so iranian/russian engineers working in yemen?
i dont think yemen has the infrastructure to make MRBM´s completely on its own there
metallurgy, electronic, solid fuel chemistry.....
but I also cant believe iran is shipping such fat missiles with ships to yemen, spy satellites + sea blockades up there
so this missiles are made in yemen, but the hell knows how..

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> so iranian/russian engineers working in yemen?
> .


i can show you brother there is no Russian on ground or involved in arms transfer or firing or helping of Yemenis

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## WordsMatter

B


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## VEVAK

It NEVER Happened!!!!!!!!!!

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## SubWater

yavar said:


> موشک بالستیک برکانYemeni resistance MRBM ballistic missile Berkane-2 range 1000 KM ۲
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now what Trump the Bullsh@ter .what you do now ?? come on bring on
> more sanction empty threat or what ?? these are not Scud missile all barndnew
> .
> \



my guess is that it's something between shahab2 and shahab3.
probably they linked two scud missile and made 1 borkan2.
they can pass evolution of scud missile so fast because they have seen experiences of Iran, N Korea and Iraq and Libya in same path.
and absolutely they have advices from outside for Iran take around 15 years to reach where Yemenis are in less than two years.
They're so motivated on BM, and spend most of their money and equipment on BM projects.
for comparing with borkan2

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## eagle2007

ALCON,

Burkan-2 definitely looks to be a Scud/R-17 modification. 

If the examples shown to public are accurate, here is my theory:

- Iranian engineers managed to get similar range performance in the Qiam-2 (Scud-based design) that the Iraqis did with the Al-Abbas. Difference is, the Qiam-1 is actually SMALLER than the original R-17 and carries a decent-size warhead, while the Al-Abbas was 1-2 meters longer (depending on source) and reduced its 1000kg warhead to just 200kg. Moral of the story: If you have the right engineers on the job, you can do a lot to the old Scud. 

- Clearly, this Burkan-2 has a reduced warhead compared to the original R-17, with the new warhead looking smaller than the Qiam-1's but IMHO, not nearly as small as the Al-Abbas. So my guess, the Burkan-2 likely has a warhead of at least 300kg, which along with other modifications, could feasibly provide the range the Saudis have been on the receiving end of. 

Just my best guess though.

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## VEVAK

eagle2007 said:


> ALCON,
> 
> Burkan-2 definitely looks to be a Scud/R-17 modification.
> 
> If the examples shown to public are accurate, here is my theory:
> 
> - Iranian engineers managed to get similar range performance in the Qiam-2 (Scud-based design) that the Iraqis did with the Al-Abbas. Difference is, the Qiam-1 is actually SMALLER than the original R-17 and carries a decent-size warhead, while the Al-Abbas was 1-2 meters longer (depending on source) and reduced its 1000kg warhead to just 200kg. Moral of the story: If you have the right engineers on the job, you can do a lot to the old Scud.
> 
> - Clearly, this Burkan-2 has a reduced warhead compared to the original R-17, with the new warhead looking smaller than the Qiam-1's but IMHO, not nearly as small as the Al-Abbas. So my guess, the Burkan-2 likely has a warhead of at least 300kg, which along with other modifications, could feasibly provide the range the Saudis have been on the receiving end of.
> 
> Just my best guess though.



Qiam-2 has NO fins uses the same booster as the Qiam-1 the only difference is the top nose section is longer likely because they have added a small Post Boost Vehicle to extended the range to ~1000km

Fatteh-110 to cover 150km - 300km (Solid Fuel)
Fatteh-313 to cover 250km - 500km (Solid Fuel)
Zolfaghar (1.5 stage) to cover up to 450km - 700km (Solid Fuel)
Qiam-1/2 (1-1.5 stage) to cover 600km-1000km (Iran likely is developing a solid fuel to replace it)
Emad (1.5 Stage) to cover 1000km-1650km & uses the same booster as the single stage Gard-1 (Iran is likely developing a solid fuel booster to replace the booster)
Gadr-2(H) & Sejil-2 (2-2.5 stage Missile) to cover over 1700km
Ya Ali Cruise Missile for up to 700km & Somar cruise missile to cover to ~2000km (Depending on altitude) 

Burkan-2 is modified Scud-B has nothing to do with Iran! And at best Yemen Rocket Scientists came to Iran for assistance on how to extend the range of their scuds and the type of assistance Iran likely gave them had more to do with fuel & some simple modifications to the engine and a simple design for a crude post boost vehicle!
That would be my guess!


Why would Iran send it's rocket scientists to an area with no areal defense coverage?


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## arashkamangir

VEVAK said:


> Qiam-2 has NO fins uses the same booster as the Qiam-1 the only difference is the top nose section is longer likely because they have added a small Post Boost Vehicle to extended the range to ~1000km
> 
> Fatteh-110 to cover 150km - 300km (Solid Fuel)
> Fatteh-313 to cover 250km - 500km (Solid Fuel)
> Zolfaghar (1.5 stage) to cover up to 450km - 700km (Solid Fuel)
> Qiam-1/2 (1-1.5 stage) to cover 600km-1000km (Iran likely is developing a solid fuel to replace it)
> Emad (1.5 Stage) to cover 1000km-1650km & uses the same booster as the single stage Gard-1 (Iran is likely developing a solid fuel booster to replace the booster)
> Gadr-2(H) & Sejil-2 (2-2.5 stage Missile) to cover over 1700km
> Ya Ali Cruise Missile for up to 700km & Somar cruise missile to cover to ~2000km (Depending on altitude)
> 
> Burkan-2 is modified Scud-B has nothing to do with Iran! And at best Yemen Rocket Scientists came to Iran for assistance on how to extend the range of their scuds and the type of assistance Iran likely gave them had more to do with fuel & some simple modifications to the engine and a simple design for a crude post boost vehicle!
> That would be my guess!
> 
> 
> Why would Iran send it's rocket scientists to an area with no areal defense coverage?




You would be surprised how much stuff can be done remotely via web. Regardless, I don't want to disregard the Yemeni's efforts. I hope a threshold is reached that Saudi's wouldn't dare to fly close to the Yemen's border.


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## eagle2007

ALCON,

Oops, just meant to refer to the Qiam-1 in my post, since the "Qiam-2" has only been talked about, not seen. 

Also, I wasn't make any opinion that Iranian engineers went to Yemen to teach the Houthis how to do this, just that simply having the right engineers on the job, you can do wonders even with the old Scud.

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## yavar

KCTV DPRK North Korea solid propellent road-mobile Cold launch ballistic missile “Pukguksong-2”

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> KCTV DPRK North Korea solid propellent road-mobile Cold launch ballistic missile “Pukguksong-2”



what a beast!

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## SOHEIL

yavar said:


> KCTV DPRK North Korea solid propellent road-mobile Cold launch ballistic missile “Pukguksong-2”



So !?

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## VEVAK

Draco.IMF said:


> what a beast!



The Missile is really not that big it's just short ~14 meters or less I'd say! But the TEL is impressive and shortens prep for launch time! (If you calculate the guy standing next to the missile as 2 meters then the missile is most definitely less than 14 meters)

Iran started testing it's Solid Fuel Sejil-2 10 years ago & it was put into production 8 years ago and since then they have chosen NOT to take it further & now N.Korea is going to surpass Iran on Solid Fuel Missiles
Their continued research in building SLBM capability also gave them the ability to build more advanced TEL's with a shorter launch time!
Also not having any fins on the missile is a greater advantage!





Props to the N.Koreans!


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## Draco.IMF

VEVAK said:


> Iran started testing it's Solid Fuel Sejil-2 10 years ago & it was put into production 8 years ago and since then they have chosen NOT to take it further & now N.Korea is going to surpass Iran on Solid Fuel Missiles
> !



do you really believe this?
Making an Sejil-2 10 years ago and not making further progress and development makes no f....ing sense..
Because Iran not showing something does not mean its not existent!
what Iran is showing on TV is only a tip from an iceberg
Soheil sayd he saw a 3 stage solid fuel ICBM and i believe its in Irans capabilities....


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## PeeD

The new North Korean MRBM/SLBM is impressive as it combines Tochka missile design with advanced booster technology. The North Koreans copied the Tochka but this was as 120km, at best 160km range TBM, they simply jumped to a 1,5m diameter booster without steps like Zelzal/Fateh. So how did they get such advanced booster technology?

However they might got it: The product is a much shorter solid fuel missile than the Sejil but with similar range/payload performance. Hands down the Bukkeukseong-2 is better at miniaturization.

The Sejil missile technology is more similar to the Chinese approach in terms of TVC system and subsystems like the boost termination system. Overall one would think that the Iranian missile design is more advanced than a Tochka based design. Iran had also access to the Tochka design via Syria before the Sejil was designed. Hence I would be very surprised if the Khorramshahr would be a Bukkeukseong based system or vice versa.

The Sejil, in the IRGC-ASF force structure, has a role of a rapid response missile, fired until the liquids are ready. The massive numbers of Iranian missiles (conventional use), plus the dry climate and tunnel basing would rise the question why a more costly containerized missile would be used? For cold launch capability to have less prepared launching ground and less wear of the TEL? As tech. demonstrator for a very high thrust/hot ICBM class missile? Because it looks more fancy?

This all has not been the rather sober Iranian design principles. If the Khorrmshahr is a solid fueled containerized, cold launch missile system then I highly doubt that it's a miniaturized Sejil class missile in the form of the Bukkeukseong. Such a system would only make sense from Iranian design perspective, if a high thrust missile is employed that would otherwise damage the TEL and require a prepared launching ground. Why such a high thrust missile if Irans ranges are restricted to 2000-2500km? Because it would have a very high weight payload, a 3 tonne submunition warhead or even a MRV/MIRV. This benefit would justify a containerized, cold launch missile system and easily bring back the investment because it would do the job of 3 Shahab-3s.
Of course this all would change and easily justify a containerized, cold launch missile system if a limited number of nuclear warheads were to be delivered... there the small benefits would be worth it, as cost plays no role.


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## yavar



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## arashkamangir

yavar said:


>



yup, I was trying to find this footage earlier in your channel but couldn't. Thanks for sharing it.


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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


>



this missile was seen firstly in a video from 2013, nearly 4 years ago.
dont know why Iran did not unveil it yet....enough time passed...

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> dont know why Iran did not unveil it yet....enough time passed...






easy look at warhead of the North Korean missile .
this missile can not be used for conventional warhead or even chemical warhead .
so if such thing was unveiled then question will come up ............

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> Hands down the Bukkeukseong-2 is better at miniaturization.


Possibly, but it is worth mentioning that the 18 metre tall Sejjil 2 has a 1.25 metre diameter, but the Bukkeukseong-2 (that name...) has an estimated 1.5 metre diameter and 14 metre high. So their sizes are similar.

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## PeeD

@AmirPatriot 

The technical challenge with solid fuel boosters is to create larger diameters with a single nozzle that don't get too heavy. A short thick missile is always better than a long thin one, footprint and size wise.

Let just call it the NK missile. Its should be ~10m long instead of 18m by just being 25cm thicker (1.25m vs. 1,50m diameter). For overall missile miniaturization other factors play a role too, but booster diameter is the driving parameter.

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> @AmirPatriot
> 
> The technical challenge with solid fuel boosters is to create larger diameters with a single nozzle that don't get too heavy. A short thick missile is always better than a long thin one, footprint and size wise.
> 
> Let just call it the NK missile. Its should be ~10m long instead of 18m by just being 25cm thicker (1.25m vs. 1,50m diameter). For overall missile miniaturization other factors play a role too, but booster diameter is the driving parameter.


I hear the reason why Iran may have made the Sejjil missile in this diameter similar to the Shahab-3 and it's derivatives is to retain comparability with the TELs of the liquid fuelled missiles.


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## SOHEIL



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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> .....




I have a technical questions!

If up to and even over 35km altitude you can still use a platforms wings to handle the vast majority of the lift why not build a platform with large enough wings that can handle the lift using a single Safir engine that could launch an SLV based on the Sejil-2 at an altitude of 30km at ~Mach 2? Imagine a 30 meter long delta wing aircraft launched from a launcher at a 20-30 degree angle (rather than vertically) with a single Safir engine & fuel for the 1st 10 meters & a Sejil-2 in the top 20 meters that could be ejected out of a canister out of the nose at an altitude of 30km & the wing & body get parachuted down to be reused (If possible) 

Once U hit ~Mach 3 gravity would be less than half of what it would be on the ground at that altitude & that should allow a platform like the sejil-2 to inject a sat (+1,500lb) into space equipped with engines & thrusters or a separate post boost orbital vehicle that can gradually increase your orbit?

I wanna know why NOT rely on wings to handle most of the lift rather than thrust for the 1st 25-35km (Altitude)?


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## PeeD

What defines the performance of a BM or SLV is the velocity it can reach at the end of the boost phase. A launch point at 35km would of course be a benefit but the most efficient way is to build a ground launched SLV which reach the necessary orbital speed to inset its payload. The acceleration phase to reach orbital speeds can start from sea level or at 35km. At 35km you have some benefits of less drag and a 35km higher orbit, where the less drag is probably the biggest benefit for acceleration performance. Concepts like the Pegasus had some benefits, but a heavy 100ton+ weight SLV that cant be launched via a aircraft (too fragile and no suitable aircraft), deliver a high weight payload of several satellites. This capability of a heavy SLV makes light Safir-1 like SLVs and Pegasus like SLV inefficient.
Iran needs 500kg imaging spy satellites in 400km LEOs and communication/position satellites in GEO, these are the current practical needs. A heavy ground launched SLV.

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## arashkamangir

PeeD said:


> What defines the performance of a BM or SLV is the velocity it can reach at the end of the boost phase. A launch point at 35km would of course be a benefit but the most efficient way is to build a ground launched SLV which reach the necessary orbital speed to inset its payload. The acceleration phase to reach orbital speeds can start from sea level or at 35km. At 35km you have some benefits of less drag and a 35km higher orbit, where the less drag is probably the biggest benefit for acceleration performance. Concepts like the Pegasus had some benefits, but a heavy 100ton+ weight SLV that cant be launched via a aircraft (too fragile and no suitable aircraft), deliver a high weight payload of several satellites. This capability of a heavy SLV makes light Safir-1 like SLVs and Pegasus like SLV inefficient.
> Iran needs 500kg imaging spy satellites in 400km LEOs and communication/position satellites in GEO, these are the current practical needs. A heavy ground launched SLV.



@PeeD

As part of a CubeSat competition I came across lots of low cost and effective remote sensing applications. Iran should look into CubeSats (3U - 6U @ 4kg-8Kg). Active areas of rote sensing in this area are SAR (via constellation of CubeSats) as well as high resolution imaging via image sensor arrays and super resolution techniques. A while ago, I calculated you need about 200 mpx to achieve 10 m resolution at 400 km orbit) this is well doable using array of small radiation hardenes image sensors and Super Resolution. It will also fit within the 6u CubeSats form factor.


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> What defines the performance of a BM or SLV is the velocity it can reach at the end of the boost phase. A launch point at 35km would of course be a benefit but the most efficient way is to build a ground launched SLV which reach the necessary orbital speed to inset its payload. The acceleration phase to reach orbital speeds can start from sea level or at 35km. At 35km you have some benefits of less drag and a 35km higher orbit, where the less drag is probably the biggest benefit for acceleration performance. Concepts like the Pegasus had some benefits, but a heavy 100ton+ weight SLV that cant be launched via a aircraft (too fragile and no suitable aircraft), deliver a high weight payload of several satellites. This capability of a heavy SLV makes light Safir-1 like SLVs and Pegasus like SLV inefficient.
> Iran needs 500kg imaging spy satellites in 400km LEOs and communication/position satellites in GEO, these are the current practical needs. A heavy ground launched SLV.



Pegasus is about 20 tons (Same as Sejil-2) and can put a 1000lb sat in LEO 400km & gets launched at 12 km

But I am talking about a ground launch vehicle that uses the Safir Engine but instead of a vertically launched missile design you put delta wing design on it for greater payload for the 1st stage & instead of being launched vertically you launch it at 20-30 degree angle & allow the wings to do most of the heavy lifting up to ~30km & the 2nd stage would be a Sejil-2 which is a 2 stage missile it's self then 3nd stage(2nd stage of the Sejil-2) solid fuel can be design for greater thrust rather than endurance fairly easily!

And you achieve all this without having to build a larger engine or worse have cluster engines and your payload capacity would be greater than the Pegasus (1000 lb) that gets launched at subsonic speeds at 40,000 ft (12km)
You can have additional side boosters on the ground just to get it off the rails....

Aside from lower drag at 30km at Mach 2 you should be able to achieve Mach 3 at under 40km so Gravity would also less than half of what it would be on the ground (Basically its as if your weight has been cut in half despite the fact that your mass density has increased)!

But i'm not talking about air launching a sejil off an aircraft! I'm talking about having a 1st stage that uses wings for lift as well as thrust rather than just thrust for a vertically launched missile!

I understand that the ONLY thing that keeps you up at beyond ~38km is your speed (velocity)...


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## PeeD

@arashkamangir

Agreed, with new technological solutions there is no need of a 500kg imaging satellite to get a tactically valuable 1m resolution. Hopefully they manage to get such a performance from a 100kg Simorgh launched 400km orbit satellite. Together with long term energy supply and broadband downlink.

@VEVAK 

Yes such a rocket powered airplane stage could potentially reach such altitudes and speeds of mach 3 which would be 3 out of ~25 mach necessary, plus the 35km extra altitude. Gravitational force does not decrease notably at such distances as 35km. A satellite would just need the necessary impulse via acceleration to create an equilibrium against the gravitational acceleration in a near dragless space.

Your concept needs some effort for an autonomous airplane system with a re-useable rocket engine of high material quality. It would be feasible for maybe 100kg at low LEO. But a evolved Simorgh with the engines shown in the North Korean test a few months ago could deliver 1 ton (10 times) payload to a 500km LEO with a two stage SLV weight of 100 ton.


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> @arashkamangir
> 
> Agreed, with new technological solutions there is no need of a 500kg imaging satellite to get a tactically valuable 1m resolution. Hopefully they manage to get such a performance from a 100kg Simorgh launched 400km orbit satellite. Together with long term energy supply and broadband downlink.
> 
> @VEVAK
> 
> Yes such a rocket powered airplane stage could potentially reach such altitudes and speeds of mach 3 which would be 3 out of ~25 mach necessary, plus the 35km extra altitude. Gravitational force does not decrease notably at such distances as 35km. A satellite would just need the necessary impulse via acceleration to create an equilibrium against the gravitational acceleration in a near dragless space.
> 
> Your concept needs some effort for an autonomous airplane system with a re-useable rocket engine of high material quality. It would be feasible for maybe 100kg at low LEO. But a evolved Simorgh with the engines shown in the North Korean test a few months ago could deliver 1 ton (10 times) payload to a 500km LEO with a two stage SLV weight of 100 ton.



Id have to respectfully disagree! Your telling me the Pegasus released at 12km at subsonic speed can put 1000 lb sat into space but Sejil if released at 30km released at supersonic speed where their is NO DRAG wont be able to put a 1000lb sat into space???
That makes no sense!

And how would you get to 100 tones?

Sejil is 20 tones the Safir SLV is 26 tones and thats with 2 stages! So even with a wings your not going to get to 46 tones! It would be about half of that of the Simorgh (87 T) & in terms of payload I don't see how it could possibly do worse than the Pegasus which has the same payload capacity as the Simorgh!

And you don't need to make it reusable at all! Maybe eject the 1st stage flight control & computers for reuse! You don't need to build the wings out of titanium (tip of the wings at max) Carbon Fiber for single use should be fine....


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## AmirPatriot

@VEVAK I have a present for you...






... knock yourself out

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> @VEVAK I have a present for you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... knock yourself out



Yea I've seen it!

But that's not what I'm talking about! I wanna see a Ground Launched SLV that uses it's wings to do the heavy lifting up to ~35km

The 1st stage of the Safir SLV could potentially lift an entire Sejil-2 on it's nose if it had wings to use for lift! So why build cluster engines when you can use wings for lift up to 40km and get the same result at the end?

That 1st 40km is far more important than it sounds!


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## PeeD

I don't want to speculate about the performance of a air launched Sejil. It has about the same performance as a liquid fueled single stage Ghadr. If the lastest Safir-1 are Ghadr based and Sejil=Ghadr then I count the difference between them for the mach 3 release at 35km to get a rough idea.

The Pegasus is a very advanced solid fuel SLV, I would not compare Sejil level booster casing design with this woven re-enforced composite design.
The Sejil is old, the recent animation of the Iranian solid fuel SLV certainly has a modern solid fuel booster casing design.

Note: The air launched Minuteman was just non-deployed air launched to have a mobile alternative for silo basing concept for second strike purpose.

You idea would also work with single-use motors, however don't expect Iran to do it if it hasn't been done for commercial reasons (except the Pegasus) elsewhere, not with heavy payloads and if Iran has mastered high power SLV boosters and high thrust liquid motors (which it almost certainly has).

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## Draco.IMF

Allegedly Hezbollah cruise missile, wtf??
Its possible?

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## SOHEIL

Draco.IMF said:


> Allegedly Hezbollah cruise missile, wtf??
> Its possible?



???


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## Faravahar

Draco.IMF said:


> Allegedly Hezbollah cruise missile, wtf??
> Its possible?




Can you not post every BS you find randomly on the internet? that's clearly the Chinese yj-62 missile.

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## Draco.IMF

someone postet this telling its an hezbollah cruise missile
i doubt that Hezbollah has this stuff, it looks chinese to me, but maybe im wrong?

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## SOHEIL

Draco.IMF said:


> someone postet this telling its an hezbollah cruise missile
> i doubt that Hezbollah has this stuff, it looks chinese to me, but maybe im wrong?



Chinese

YJ 62 Antiship Cruise Missile


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## yavar

Iran IRGC exercise "The Great Prophet 11" phase one MLRS, رزمایش بزرگ پیامبر اعظم(ص)۱۱





مرحله اول رزمایش سه روزه نیروی زمینی سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی با نام پیامبر اعظم 11 با شعار "نمایش اقتدار و امنیت پایدار" با رمز مقدس «یا رسول‌ الله» صبح امروز (دوم اسفند) با حضور یگانهای توپخانه، پدافند، پهپاد، پیاده و هوانیروز این نیرو در کویر مرکزی ایران آغاز شد.
بنابراین گزارش در مرحله اول این رزمایش اهداف دشمن فرضی با راکت‌های پیشرفته، هوشمند و نقطه زن در کلاسهای مختلف مورد اصابت قرار گرفت.
رزمایش امنیتی – دفاعی پیامبر اعظم 11 نیروی زمینی سپاه در کویر مرکزی ایران و شرق کشور تا روز چهارشنبه (چهارم اسفند) ادامه دارد و طی آن یگانهای برگزیده این نیرو اشراف اطلاعاتی آمادگی‌های دفاعی همه جانبه خود برای مقابله با تهدیدات متصور از سوی متجاوزین خارجی را به نمایش خواهند گذاشت.
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13951202000253
The Ground Forces of Iran’s Islamic Revolution Guard Corps (IRGC) have started military maneuvers in Dasht-e Kavir, the country’s sprawling central desert.
Codenamed Payambar-e-A’azam (the Great Prophet) 11, the wargames got off the ground on Monday, with the motto of “demonstration of power and enduring stability.”
The maneuvers feature the IRGC’s drones as well as its artillery, air defense and infantry units.
The first stage witnessed the launch of state-of-the-art smart and precision-guided rockets against mock enemy targets
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/02/20/511301/Iran-IRGC

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## Kiarash

Fajr-5C launched in the Great Prophet 11 wargames

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## Hack-Hook

Kiarash said:


> Fajr-5C launched in the Great Prophet 11 wargames
> View attachment 378898
> View attachment 378899


Do you have any pictures of the impact


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## warfareknow

http://defapress.ir/fa/news/228172/تصاویر-شلیک-راکت‌ها-در-رزمایش-پیامبر-اعظم-11


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## yavar

Iran IRGC exercise "The Great Prophet 11" phase Two MLRS, manpad رزمایش بزرگ پیامبر اعظم(ص)۱۱

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## SOHEIL



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## The Eagle

It would be better to create thread with details and substance w.r.t. subject. Thread with pictures only may not be helpful or interested for the readers that these pictures can be posted in Iranian Defence Forum section/Missile Thread rather than creating a separate thread for pictures only.

@SOHEIL


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## ashool

iran show new cruise missile in navy war game NASIR CRUISE MISSILE

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## yavar

China and Iran are currently the only countries that deploy ASBMs to target offshore assets.

U.S. and South Korea intelligence authorities suspect North Korea began to acquire ASBM technology from Iran in the '90s, according to the JoongAng.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...g-anti-ship-ballistic-missiles/3111489451179/
http://www.janes.com/article/68625/iran-successfully-tests-radar-guided-anti-ship-ballistic-missile


for Iranian memmbers only
this is good report with some intelligence source leak for fools who think north Korea missile program is head of Iran .

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## SOHEIL



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## yavar

*جروزالم پست: اسرائیل نگران لغو ممنوعیت‌های سازمان ملل علیه برنامه موشکی ایران است*
پایگاه صهیونیستی جروزالم پست در گزارشی نوشت: در توافق هسته‌ای ایران یک مهلت ده ساله برای ممنوعیت فعالیت‌های هسته‌ای ایران، غنی‌سازی اورانیوم در این کشور و توسعه تجهیزات با قابلیت هسته‌ای قید شده است. مقامات اسرائیل معتقد هستند این مهلت 10 ساله ، که یک سال آن نیز سپری شده است، احتمالا در زندگی سیاسی طولانی به نظر برسد؛ اما در زندگی یک ملت چندان زمان طولانی نیست.


جروزالم پست در ادامه این گزارش نوشت: اسرائیل از هم‌اکنون در حال آماده شدن برای زمان انقضای توافق هسته‌ای ایران است. به ویژه آنکه دو مورد از محدودیت‌های تعیین شده برای ایران در زمینه فروش تسلیحات و توسعه برنامه‌ ساخت موشک‌های بالستیک این کشور در چند سال آینده لغو خواهد شد.

"بنیامین نتانیاهو"، نخست وزیر رژیم صهیونیستی، در سفر ماه گذشته به واشنگتن اظهار داشت وی همراه با کابینه "دونالد ترامپ"، رئیس جمهور آمریکا، بر روی مواردی از توافق هسته‌ای ایران گفتگو و رایزنی کردند که دورنمای آنها بیش از سایرین چالش‌برانگیز بوده است. برای اسرائیل، ایران با اجرای این توافق بسیار خطرناک‌تر خواهد بود تا با لغو آن.

در ضمیمه "B” قطعنامه شماره 2231 شورای امنیت سازمان ملل قید شده است ایران اجازه انجام هیچ فعالیتی که به ساخت و طراحی موشک با قابلیت حمل سلاح هسته‌ای منتهی شود را نخواهد داشت. همچنین این کشور از استفاده فناوری‌های مرتبط با این نوع از موشک‌ها و خرید تجهیزات مربوط به توسعه موشک‌های بالستیک منع شده است. این ممنوعیت‌ها به موجب توافق هسته‌ای فقط 8 سال معتبر خواهند بود و اسرائیل به شدت نگران است پس از این مدت با یک کشور قدرتمند هسته‌ای که به لحاظ قانونی اجازه استفاده از موشک‌های بالستیک را دارد مواجه شود.

اسرائیل امیدوار است بتواند با جلب حمایت آمریکا و برخی متحدان اروپایی، سازمان ملل را برای افزایش زمان محدودیت‌های ایران تحت فشار بگذارد. اگر سازمان ملل حاضر به تمدید محدودیت‌های موشکی ایران شود، کشورهایی مانند روسیه و چین که تامین‌کنندگان اصلی تجهیزات موشکی ایران هستند، ساکت نخواهند نشست. یکی دیگر از اهداف اسرائیل متقاعد کردن سازمان ملل برای اعلام ممنوعیت آزمایش‌های موشکی ایران است.

درصورتیکه سازمان ملل بپذیرد مدت محدودیت‌های موشکی ایران را افزایش دهد، آمریکا آماده است برای کشورهای نقض‌کننده این فرمان (روسیه و چین) تحریم‌هایی در نظر بگیرد.

جروزالم پست در ادامه نوشت: مهلت قانونی ممنوعیت توسعه موشک‌های بالستیک ایران از سوی سازمان ملل تا سال 2023 به اتمام می‌رسد و در این مدت این کشور به قدر کافی از حمایت دوستان و متحدان خود برخوردار شده است تا کار توسعه موشکی تهران را بدون هیچ اتلاف وقتی از سر بگیرد. 

باوجود اینکه توافق هسته‌ای ایران این کشور را از ساخت تسلیحات هسته‌ای باز می‌دارد؛ اسرائیل نگران است فعالیت‌های ایران در حوزه مواد شکافت‌پذیر به این کشور اجازه دهد تا ‌برنامه ساخت یک منطقه صنعتی هسته‌ای را دنبال کند. ایران می‌تواند از این دانش و فناوری خود خیلی راحت و در کمترین زمان ممکن برای توسعه برنامه تسلیحاتی استفاده کند.

به موجب توافق هسته‌ای، ایران قادر خواهد بود در پایان 9 سال، تعداد سانتریفیوژهای خود را افزایش داده و به غنی‌سازی اورانیوم بپردازد. در آن زمان تجهیزات ایران به روزرسانی شده و رویارویی با چنین کشور هسته‌ای برای اسرائیل بسیار دشوار خواهد بود.

مقامات اسرائیلی معتقدند به موجب توافق هسته‌ای، ایران می‌تواند به یک کشور دارای فناوری هسته‌ای تبدیل شود بدون آنکه از نظر جامعه بین‌الملل کشوری ناقض قوانین به شمار آید. اسرائیل امیدوار است با لغو برخی محدودیت‌های زمانی تعیین شده در توافق هسته‌ای (و افزایش آن‌ها) مانع از رسیدن ایران به این مرحله شده و خود را با دردسر رویارویی با یک ایران هسته‌ای مواجه نکند.
http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/6022616/ج...یت‌های-سازمان-ملل-علیه-برنامه-موشکی-ایران-است

Israel already preparing for end of UN ban on Iran missile activity

WASHINGTON – Throughout international talks with Iran over its nuclear program, Israeli leadership offered a common refrain: Ten years may be a long time in the life of a politician, but it is nothing in the life of a nation.

In that spirit, Israel’s government is already planning for the expiration of several critical provisions in the deal that resulted from those talks, including two restrictions on Iran that sunset within the next few years on arms sales and its ballistic missile program.
Last month in Washington, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told The Jerusalem Post that he was working with the Trump administration on ways to mitigate the effects of some of the deal’s most challenging sunset clauses. For Israel, Iran is more dangerous if it abides by the deal than if it breaches it, he said.
Asked if he could offer specifics on his strategy, Netanyahu replied, “I could, but I won’t.” But those with his ear tell the Post that discussions have already begun, starting with a clause that lifts a UN ban on Iran’s ballistic missile work in just under seven years.

That ban, in Annex B of UN Security Council Resolution 2231, requires Iran “not to undertake any activity related to ballistic missiles designed to be capable of delivering nuclear weapons, including launches using such ballistic missile technology.” The provision also bans states from supplying, selling or transferring equipment, technology or training to Iran relevant to the advancement of that missile program.

The decision to include such a provision – which extended for eight years what would have otherwise expired upon completion of the nuclear deal– was opposed by Russia and China during the talks. Moscow has been a top supplier of Iran’s missile programs for several years.

Israel now believes that European nations, whose diplomats supported extending the ban during the nuclear negotiations, will be on board with a creative strategy that punishes Moscow through means outside of the UN should it choose to assist Iran with its continued missile work. The strategy would be to maintain de facto sanctions on Iran by threatening those that might supply it, despite the end of an explicit UN embargo against doing so.

The plan already appears popular in Washington.

“Sanctioning Russia is as popular as it has ever been on the Hill right now,” said one lobbyist with an Israel advocacy organization, discussing the emerging strategy. The lobbyist described the plan succinctly: Threatening new, tough sanctions on Moscow for its potential sale of ballistic missile components to Iran would kill two birds with one stone, targeting two of the world’s most destabilizing forces while gaining broad bipartisan support.

While this particular UN provision expires in 2023, Iran is expected to seek partners for collaboration well in advance. Thus Iran’s adversaries are likely to work backward against an unspecified date some time in the next few years.

The Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action is intended to prevent Iran from ever building nuclear weapons, but Israel worries that sunset clauses on its work with fissile material will allow Tehran to build an industrial-sized nuclear program, providing the state with a nuclear capacity that could easily be converted into a weapons program on short notice.

The deal allows Iran to expand the number of centrifuges it can use to enrich uranium, as well as the number of facilities it can use to host enrichment, in nine years. It also allows Iran to upgrade the centrifuges it has in use, from 1970s models to modern state-of-the-art machines. As the size and efficiency of their program advances – with full international legitimacy, under the nuclear deal – Israel fears it will be impossible to stop or even catch Iran should it choose to “break out” and build a weapon.

Furthermore, should Iran instead choose to park itself right before a bomb and remain a nuclear-threshold state, Israel believes that Iran will maintain all of the strategic benefits a nuclear power enjoys without facing the costs that rogue nuclear states endure. Israeli leaders seek to prevent Iran from reaching this threshold stage.

Speaking to the Post, several Israeli officials would only acknowledge that strategizing is under way to prevent these later sunset clauses from lapsing. No further details were provided.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Is...end-of-UN-ban-on-Iran-missile-activity-484634


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## Kastor

Very interesting news piece....bravo Iran. Sorry I can't post links, I just joined. Also I could not find the original news post from the Kuwaiti Daily...so Jpost will have to do. 

REPORT: IRAN ACCUSES RUSSIA OF GIVING ISRAEL CODES FOR SYRIAN AIR DEFENSES
BYYASSER OKBI/ MAARIV HASHAVUA

MARCH 21, 2017 15:53

Kuwaiti daily quotes Iran Defense Ministry source as saying Iran was able to change the codes without Russia's knowledge, enabling Friday's missile launch against Israeli aircraft.


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## Rukarl

This isn't the first time the russians did something like this, they did it with tor m-1 as well.


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## Kastor

Rukarl said:


> This isn't the first time the russians did something like this, they did it with tor m-1 as well.


Incredible...such an underhanded thing. This why there is so much smack talk about the Russkies. No wonder we're developing our own systems. I hope the engineers back home have already reprogrammed every single S-300 that these Judases have sold us.


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## Hack-Hook

Well if true its not the first time and its not something the others didn't do . anybody remember that in Falkland war France gave access to the backdoor in argentinian exocet missiles to England .


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## AmirPatriot

Kastor said:


> Very interesting news piece....bravo Iran. Sorry I can't post links, I just joined. Also I could not find the original news post from the Kuwaiti Daily...so Jpost will have to do.
> 
> REPORT: IRAN ACCUSES RUSSIA OF GIVING ISRAEL CODES FOR SYRIAN AIR DEFENSES
> BYYASSER OKBI/ MAARIV HASHAVUA
> 
> MARCH 21, 2017 15:53
> 
> Kuwaiti daily quotes Iran Defense Ministry source as saying Iran was able to change the codes without Russia's knowledge, enabling Friday's missile launch against Israeli aircraft.


"Iran defence ministry source" who isn't named.


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## Draco.IMF

allegedly fake news....

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## Navigator

BTW most modern Syrian Air Defence radars, that were purchased before war, even not Russian, but Chinese. 
Syria in the 2008-10 bought radars of three types for early detection, all Chinese - JY-27, JYL-1 and Type 120. 
Given this fact, any fabrications about the Russian codes look ridiculous.


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## Kastor

Whenever there is let's say "Fake News" you have to ask what's the angle? What's to gain from it? This is first reported by a Kuwaiti paper, it arguably makes Iran look capable and clever, why would they want to push that news? I can understand if it undermined Iran in some way but there is nothing to indicate that. Also as few of you already mentioned this kind of things have been done before, which again chips away at the fake news narrative.


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## Arminkh

True or not, I wonder why Iran doesn't send a squadron of its home built AA batteries like Tabas or Raad to Syria? After all, Iran is relying on these systems to work in a real war scenario and yet, we have not tested them in any real situation against an actual enemy fighter.

There are a lot of valuable lessons that can be learned about any potential weaknesses of the system.

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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> True or not, I wonder why Iran doesn't send a squadron of its home built AA batteries like Tabas or Raad to Syria? After all, Iran is relying on these systems to work in a real war scenario and yet, we have not tested them in any real situation against an actual enemy fighter.
> 
> There are a lot of valuable lessons that can be learned about any potential weaknesses of the system.



Because you would be providing your enemy with information they shouldn't have! Like the actual range of the radar, speed of operation,.....

yadet bosheh keh dar har khairi sharri nahofteh!

The Russian's have their SAM systems there no need for us to do the same!


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## Arminkh

VEVAK said:


> Because you would be providing your enemy with information they shouldn't have! Like the actual range of the radar, speed of operation,.....
> 
> yadet bosheh keh dar har khairi sharri nahofteh!
> 
> The Russian's have their SAM systems there no need for us to do the same!


Well I can only imagine two outcomes:

1- We deploy them and they are successful where it seems S300 has failed. That will send a strong message to everyone around the world especially US and Israel that they should really reconsider their "options on the table". It is a great outcome even if it give away information about our system. Remember Iran will keep its trump card, Bavar 373 to itself.

2- We deploy them and they fail to do what they are supposed to do. Again a great outcome for Iran as they know they need to improve their system and should not rely on them.

As it is today, we are relying on systems that we really don't know how effective they are. For all we know, Syria's S300 has not done anything spectacular so far. Now it may be because IDF somehow got their hands on the codes but that remains to be seen. This is not an ideal situation for Iran.


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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> Well I can only imagine two outcomes:
> 
> 1- We deploy them and they are successful where it seems S300 has failed. That will send a strong message to everyone around the world especially US and Israel that they should really reconsider their "options on the table". It is a great outcome even if it give away information about our system. Remember Iran will keep its trump card, Bavar 373 to itself.
> 
> 2- We deploy them and they fail to do what they are supposed to do. Again a great outcome for Iran as they know they need to improve their system and should not rely on them.
> 
> As it is today, we are relying on systems that we really don't know how effective they are. For all we know, Syria's S300 has not done anything spectacular so far. Now it may be because IDF somehow got their hands on the codes but that remains to be seen. This is not an ideal situation for Iran.



The outcome your not considering is that they are successful and the Israeli's & the Americans develop something to counter them!
So them being successful is actually the worse outcome!


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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> Well I can only imagine two outcomes:
> 
> 1- We deploy them and they are successful where it seems S300 has failed. That will send a strong message to everyone around the world especially US and Israel that they should really reconsider their "options on the table". It is a great outcome even if it give away information about our system. Remember Iran will keep its trump card, Bavar 373 to itself.
> 
> 2- We deploy them and they fail to do what they are supposed to do. Again a great outcome for Iran as they know they need to improve their system and should not rely on them.
> 
> As it is today, we are relying on systems that we really don't know how effective they are. For all we know, Syria's S300 has not done anything spectacular so far. Now it may be because IDF somehow got their hands on the codes but that remains to be seen. This is not an ideal situation for Iran.



Another outcome is that the Israeli's make them seem successful giving Iran a false sense of security! That is another bad outcome!

Deception is extremely important in war so much so that the U.S. used large speaker to scare & deceive Iraqi troops!

When American so called military annalist say the Q-313 is aerodynamically incapable of flight do you actually think they believe it? NO! They know that it is but they also know that 1.Iranian have need to always try to prove themselves 2.That Aircraft will have limited capability.
This is a deception, they are trying to fool Iran to waist it's money & resources in building something they shouldn't be wasting time on! If they feared such an aircraft they would be screaming bloody murder like they do with Iran's missile program! And they would be accusing other countries of assisting Iran in such a program! BUT they don't! WHY? Because they want Iran to build it!


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## Arminkh

VEVAK said:


> Another outcome is that the Israeli's make them seem successful giving Iran a false sense of security! That is another bad outcome!
> 
> Deception is extremely important in war so much so that the U.S. used large speaker to scare & deceive Iraqi troops!
> 
> When American so called military annalist say the Q-313 is aerodynamically incapable of flight do you actually think they believe it? NO! They know that it is but they also know that 1.Iranian have need to always try to prove themselves 2.That Aircraft will have limited capability.
> This is a deception, they are trying to fool Iran to waist it's money & resources in building something they shouldn't be wasting time on! If they feared such an aircraft they would be screaming bloody murder like they do with Iran's missile program! And they would be accusing other countries of assisting Iran in such a program! BUT they don't! WHY? Because they want Iran to build it!


Well I'm sure Iranian military leaders are smart enough to have their own assessment of the situation.

If the systems actually shoot down a couple of F-15 or F-16 and stop this everyday Syrian airspace violation, even if Israel is pretending, is a good outcome. Because then arms flow would continue without obstacles and precious lives will be spared.

Iran should test its systems in a real scenario before it is actually forced to use it for its own airspace defense. All countries do that. If you recall, Patriot system was first tested during the first US-Iraq war fo intercepting Skud missiles. Even though its performance was comical in cases and gave away a lot of clue about how it works to US opponents, including Iran and Russia, it also gave invaluable insight to its designer about its weaknesses. As you can see, its newer versions are performing much better in Israel and KSA and it is still considered a capable weapon.

Syria is the best place for Iran to test its AA systems against one of the best air forces of the world. It could be using Kosar system to intercept their stand off weapons before they hit the target or Raad system to intercept their fighters. We have already tested our other systems there like drones, Fateh missiles and ATGMs. I don't see why we should hot test the AD systems.


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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> Well I'm sure Iranian military leaders are smart enough to have their own assessment of the situation.
> 
> If the systems actually shoot down a couple of F-15 or F-16 and stop this everyday Syrian airspace violation, even if Israel is pretending, is a good outcome. Because then arms flow would continue without obstacles and precious lives will be spared.
> 
> Iran should test its systems in a real scenario before it is actually forced to use it for its own airspace defense. All countries do that. If you recall, Patriot system was first tested during the first US-Iraq war fo intercepting Skud missiles. Even though its performance was comical in cases and gave away a lot of clue about how it works to US opponents, including Iran and Russia, it also gave invaluable insight to its designer about its weaknesses. As you can see, its newer versions are performing much better in Israel and KSA and it is still considered a capable weapon.
> 
> Syria is the best place for Iran to test its AA systems against one of the best air forces of the world. It could be using Kosar system to intercept their stand off weapons before they hit the target or Raad system to intercept their fighters. We have already tested our other systems there like drones, Fateh missiles and ATGMs. I don't see why we should hot test the AD systems.



1st Air Defense systems are completely different story!

2ndly we did a tech transfer of 1st gen Fatteh Missile to Syria so we can test newer versions under that cover, ATGM we are not using newer versions in Syria because the enemy there has no new advanced tanks! In Yemen they do but it's limited and the explosion is so big that nothing is left and for test models you can import the materials used to build it so there would be no proof that it was Iranian built.

Testing newer stealth Drones like the Saegheh & Simorgh UAV's in Syria or Iraq is also a mistake! I believe it was a mistake to even show them that we built them! It could have been used as a big surprise if war broke out! A very big one! I hope Iran builds a larger, faster, semiautonomous & more powerful armed version.....
Shahed-129 is a different story other than it's price tag it's nothing special compared to US or Chinese version... but if war breaks out all the communication codes will need to change and that's something Iran would of thought of before sending them there.

Iran can test it's Air Defense systems against it's own Cruise Missiles & UAV's it's capable of building! In terms of radar signature if you can pick up the Simorgh UAV on radar you should have no problem picking up the F-35... And that just leaves Jamming capability & the Aircrafts counter measures.
In terms of Jamming capability if you test your systems there it's more likely they will be able to Jam your system in the future if they can't already do so now

In terms of chaff and flairs you can install them on current Iranian UAV's and test them while the UAV makes high G turns even humans can't handle!
Iran needs to test it's own SAM under the hardest of conditions at home before testing them anywhere else

F-35 likely has Laser countermeasures to blind optically guided & IR guided missiles and even if it doesn't that's something Iran needs to be ready for! To me that means if you fired 2 missiles at an aircraft before now you fire 3 at a time!

Russians deployed the S-400 to Syria because that system was already sold to China & India and both the US & Israel know all they need to know about the radars range + the Russians likely have an upgraded version that they have not sold to or deployed to anywhere outside their own soil.
And so far to my knowledge the S-400 in Syria hasn't downed a single Aircraft and there is a reason for that! The Russians could have used it to down an Israeli UAV just to show that they can and to me it seems the Israeli's are provoking the Russians to use the S-400 so they can gather as much intel on it as they can yet the Russian reframe from using it and they have a good reason for that! 

The lesson Iran needs to get is that with all the Russian SAM systems the Syrians have they couldn't stop an Israeli raid on Damascus Airport so the idea that you can replace an Air Force with a bunch of SAM systems on the ground is nothing but a delusion!

You need early warning systems, SAM's,..... AND an Air Force with Air Superiority fighters to work as a team to counter a raid and if you couldn't counter it you need to respond in kind to show the consequences of such actions!
If the Israeli's feared a retaliation of any kind they would have never taken such action! And the fact is Syria should have been better ready for a war with Israel because if they were, the Israeli would have feared a response and would have never taken such action.


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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/846593239788539904


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## Arminkh

Draco.IMF said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/846593239788539904


What is so special about that base? That seem to be their constant target.


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## SubWater

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...جلس-از-جدیدترین-تسلیحات-ساخت-وزارت-دفاع-اسامی

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## Aramagedon

mass producing of Iran's ' Shahab-6 ' with 6000 kms range and capability of holding nuclear bomb up to 5000 kms.






Distance between Tehran and London is 5100 kms.

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## AmirPatriot

2800 said:


> mass producing of Iran's ' Shahab-6 ' with 6000 kms range and capability of holding nuclear bomb up to 5000 kms.
> 
> View attachment 391379
> 
> 
> Distance between Tehran and London is 5100 kms.



Shahab-6 is just a rumour...

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## eagle2007

ALCON,

Hell, the Shahab-6 doesn't even qualify as a rumor. It, along with the Shahab-4 & 5 are merely US designations for what they assumed would be Iranian counterparts to the North Korean "Taepodong" family of missiles back in the last 90s. They took the existing Iranian name (Shahab) and extrapolated into what they though for sure to be future Iranian IRBM/ICBMs. None of them ever came to be true as it turned out, since Iran's ballistic missile program has followed a fundamental different path than North Korea. 

Now, nearly 20 years later, they are just meaningless designations. Iran doesn't even refer to the evolved variants of the Shahab-3 as such anymore, switching to the "Ghadr" designation.

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## AmirPatriot

2800 said:


> Sejjil



Sejjil has no relation to Shahab whatsoever... Sejjil is solid fuelled, Shahab is liquid!

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## Aramagedon

AmirPatriot said:


> Sejjil has no relation to Shahab whatsoever... Sejjil is solid fuelled, Shahab is liquid!


Mate I was talking about ranges not fuel.


AmirPatriot said:


> Shahab-6 is just a rumour...


Please tell this to our instagramer friends:

http://instagram.com/sardar_hezbollahy3


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## AmirPatriot

2800 said:


> Please tell this to our instagramer friends:


Instagram is a social media platform! Their posts are worthless.

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## Aramagedon

AmirPatriot said:


> Instagram is a social media platform! Their posts are worthless.


What if professional IR martials published them???

I don't believe Iran's missile range is limited to its early 2000's range which was 2000 kms. If you think I and my like-minded people are wrong let's agree to disagree and skip it.


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## AmirPatriot

2800 said:


> What if professional IR martials published them???


I doubt that in the extreme.


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## eagle2007

ALCON,

Didn't see this posted before. This is an article from MashreghNews that talks about new warhead designs for existing Zelzal rockets/missiles. 

The end result is something like a Fateh-110 in appearance and the article seems to allude that they're using proven guidance/control technology from the Fateh-110 family and using it to upgrade the previously unguided Zelzals. 

Could be wrong though, I'm relying entirely on Google Translate here..

http://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/703285/از-عماد-تا-زلزال-نسل-جدید-کلاهک-روی-موشک-ها-و-راکت-های-ایرانی

This images is apparently that of an upgraded Zelzal:

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## Fafnir

eagle2007 said:


> ALCON,
> 
> Didn't see this posted before. This is an article from MashreghNews that talks about new warhead designs for existing Zelzal rockets/missiles.
> 
> The end result is something like a Fateh-110 in appearance and the article seems to allude that they're using proven guidance/control technology from the Fateh-110 family and using it to upgrade the previously unguided Zelzals.
> 
> Could be wrong though, I'm relying entirely on Google Translate here..
> 
> http://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/703285/از-عماد-تا-زلزال-نسل-جدید-کلاهک-روی-موشک-ها-و-راکت-های-ایرانی
> 
> This images is apparently that of an upgraded Zelzal:
> View attachment 391615


I`d been wondering if they were eventually going to do this,its rather ironic considering that the 110 was originally based on the zelzal,but it certainly makes very good sense to do this.I`m not sure the picture is anything more than the standard 110 as the latest version of the fateh has a redesigned warhead and guidance section that allows it to separate in flight,altho if they`re planning to upgrade all the 110s with the new separating warhead then that might mean that all the old warhead/guidance packages are then going to be available to be retro fitted onto the zelzals so who knows,anyway its a potential big boost to irans already very formidable missile forces.


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## Aspahbod

Fafnir said:


> I`d been wondering if they were eventually going to do this,its rather ironic considering that the 110 was originally based on the zelzal,but it certainly makes very good sense to do this.I`m not sure the picture is anything more than the standard 110 as the latest version of the fateh has a redesigned warhead and guidance section that allows it to separate in flight,altho if they`re planning to upgrade all the 110s with the new separating warhead then that might mean that all the old warhead/guidance packages are then going to be available to be retro fitted onto the zelzals so who knows,anyway its a potential big boost to irans already very formidable missile forces.



The last picture has "Zelzal" written on the missile.
Still, this supposed upgrade was always a mystery for me. Zelzal rockets have higher speed (due to lower burn time) than Fateh missiles. Won't this affect the guidance system? Can those control surfaces tolerate this higher speed? And if the engine was also replaced in the course of this upgrade, which part of the new missile is actually from the older Zelzal rocket?


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## Fafnir

Aspahbod said:


> The last picture has "Zelzal" written on the missile.
> Still, this supposed upgrade was always a mystery for me. Zelzal rockets have higher speed (due to lower burn time) than Fateh missiles. Won't this affect the guidance system? Can those control surfaces tolerate this higher speed? And if the engine was also replaced in the course of this upgrade, which part of the new missile is actually from the older Zelzal rocket?


I doubt the engine would have been replaced as most of these types of rocket/missile have the engine cast into the airframe so to replace it would effectively mean replacing most of the missile body.The movable control surfaces appear to be one piece metal or plastic/composite that just plug in to the actuators on the missile body so I would think unless there was a big increase in either acceleration or max velocity they`ll probably be ok.As for the guidance system it would likely once again depend on how big an increase/difference in acceleration and velocity there is as well as how much flexibility has been built into the system.


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## Raghfarm007

All of Iran's missiles being test fired:

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## Arminkh

Raghfarm007 said:


> All of Iran's missiles being test fired:


Let's send this to Trump, Mattis and TRex!

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## yavar

آیت الله خامنه‌ای
جنجال های گسترده ای که در مورد توان موشکی جمهوری اسلامی به‌راه انداخته می‌شود، به‌دلیل خشم و کینه ای است که از این عامل اقتدار در دل دارند.
فرمانده کل قوا تأکید کردند: ما موشک داریم و موشک های ما بسیار دقیق است و اهداف مورد نظر را از فاصله هزاران کیلومتری با دقت بالا، هدف قرار می دهد و این توانایی را با قدرت حفظ خواهیم کرد و با قدرت هم آن را افزایش خواهیم داد.
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13960220001003

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## mohsen

yavar said:


> آیت الله خامنه‌ای
> جنجال های گسترده ای که در مورد توان موشکی جمهوری اسلامی به‌راه انداخته می‌شود، به‌دلیل خشم و کینه ای است که از این عامل اقتدار در دل دارند.
> فرمانده کل قوا تأکید کردند: ما موشک داریم و موشک های ما بسیار دقیق است و اهداف مورد نظر را از فاصله هزاران کیلومتری با دقت بالا، هدف قرار می دهد و این توانایی را با قدرت حفظ خواهیم کرد و با قدرت هم آن را افزایش خواهیم داد.
> http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13960220001003


The good thing is that Rouhani finally showed his true face.
another failure for those who were saying JCPOA has nothing to do with our missiles.

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## The Eagle

yavar said:


> آیت الله خامنه‌ای
> جنجال های گسترده ای که در مورد توان موشکی جمهوری اسلامی به‌راه انداخته می‌شود، به‌دلیل خشم و کینه ای است که از این عامل اقتدار در دل دارند.
> فرمانده کل قوا تأکید کردند: ما موشک داریم و موشک های ما بسیار دقیق است و اهداف مورد نظر را از فاصله هزاران کیلومتری با دقت بالا، هدف قرار می دهد و این توانایی را با قدرت حفظ خواهیم کرد و با قدرت هم آن را افزایش خواهیم داد.
> http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13960220001003



Kindly post bit of conclusive or an over all detail in English for international readers, as a standard. 

Thanks


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## PeeD

I did some calculation on the Zolfaghar missile of the Fateh family presented last year.

It revealed quite some details about it, I will sum up the findings:

- Compared to the Fateh the Zolfaghar uses a separating re entry vehicle first and foremost because it's a quasi-ballistic missile flying at a depressed trajectory with a gliding RV. Its not much bigger than the Fateh family but due to its gliding RV it reached extended ranges of 700km. 1/4 or up to 1/3 of the range is due to the lifting body of the RV.

Separation to a RV is due to defeat anti-ballistic missile systems, from Patriot PAC-3 to THAAD, not because of range. Once separated the small RV has quite high aerodynamic maneuvering capability via its fins, my calculations have shown ~5G at 45km altitude. At already 37km altitude it reached around 20G which is likely near what the RV can structurally endure.

This means that if the Zolfaghar has a apogee of 50km altitude due to the quasi-ballistic depressed trajectory with gliding RV, the last 200km of 700km would be at around that altitude of 37km. Hence already outside the range of THAAD and Patriot the Zolfaghar will have full aerodynamic maneuverability of ~20G, reaching 30G and more as it descents further (34km altitude).

For a reasonable probability of kill the interceptor (THAAD/Patriot) would need to have a higher overload than that 20-30G. How much higher is questionable but there is not much room to increase the G overload, 50G is the upper end.

It's possible that the Zolfaghar RV has a gas control or sustainer engine with TVC in its read part. If so, this has to be added to the stated aerodynamic maneuvering capability. If it has such a system, its performance is very close to the Russian Iskander-M, in aerodynamic maneuvering even above it.

In total these points show that the Zolfaghar is almost certainly designed to defeat THAAD, PAC-2/3 and SM-2 and has quite good chances to do so. It's much more different to the Fateh than I initial thought, its the anti-ABM silverbullet in the IRGC-ASF arsenal.

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## Fafnir

Heres a rather interesting picture showing the then and now of irans missile fueling techniques,some of them,such as using a bucket to fuel a scud,makes one shudder and I have to wonder how many accidents happened back in those early days

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## rahi2357

Fafnir said:


> Heres a rather interesting picture showing the then and now of irans missile fueling techniques,some of them,such as using a bucket to fuel a scud,makes one shudder and I have to wonder how many accidents happened back in those early days


We shouldn't lose someone like Tehrani moghadam because of safety issues .In 1985 , during war , understandable .But not in 2011 .


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## raptor22

rahi2357 said:


> We shouldn't lose someone like Tehrani moghadam because of safety issue .In 1985 , during war , understandable .But not in 2011 .


That happened due to safety issue?

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## rahi2357

raptor22 said:


> That happened due to safety issue?


Hi raptor .What do you mean by " that " ?
A test that goes wrong ? No , It happens during developing a new missile/SLV .
Or being martyred during a test ? Yes , Indeed , safety issues . Even if caused by a rat .
http://alef.ir/vdchv6nix23nkxd.tft2.html?24txt

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## AmirPatriot

Fafnir said:


> Heres a rather interesting picture showing the then and now of irans missile fueling techniques,some of them,such as using a bucket to fuel a scud,makes one shudder and I have to wonder how many accidents happened back in those early days


Thats the 1980s for you.

Thankfully modern procedures are much more thorough. This is necessary given Iran's large BM arsenal.

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## PeeD

Back on what I said about the Zolfaghar missile.

The calculation method I used and its computer integration was made by someone else, a quite complicated formula. I benchmarked it against real test values and found out that the results had a error which was identified and corrected by me.
__________________________________
First we have to define methods to defeat ABM systems.

One method would be continuous low G maneuvering to force course corrections upon the ABM interceptor. This is a method to reduce the range/altitude/speed capability of a ABM interceptor because the interception/rendezvous positions changes more and more over the time.

Another method are a limited number of higher G evasive maneuvers. The goal is to evade the interceptor because it's max. G capability is reached. Depending on the speed difference of target and interceptor for a sufficiently high probability of kill there must be a difference of G maneuvering capability as already said. Sources vary for SAM/AAM vs. aircraft scenarios, its said that the interceptor must have a 3-5 times higher G maneuvering capability (the state of the art limit is 50G).


Now I will present the updated data and add the Emad missile to the discussion.
__________________________________

First some assumptions were made to get the calculation as close to the reality as possible and not beyond it. Certain angle of attacks are assumed, certain weights for the RVs are assumed.

I will define several altitudes for different anti-ABM system purposes:

60km --> altitude at which a pure MRBM like the Emad can start aerodynamic maneuvering. This is also the max. altitude of the Arrow 2 (the highest known endo-atmospheric ABM system in service). Exo-atmospheric ABM systems such as the Arrow-3 and THAAD are already a threat here, hence only a potent gas steering system could counter them (we have no information that Zolfaghar or Emad are equipped with one)

37km --> altitude where a depressed trajectory quasi-ballistic missile with gliding RV like the Zolfaghar would enter the range envelope of a ABM system (below the range of the THAAD and likely Arrow-3 and SM-3).

25km --> altitude where endo-atmospheric ABM systems such as the Patriot PAC-2/3, SM-2/3 are still within operational regime with useful probability of kill.

__________________________________

So the question is what the performance of Zolfaghar and Emad would be at those altitudes (excluding any potential gas system).

Here are the results:

60km: Zolfaghar's MaRV is out of the game because it's a depressed trajectory BM with a proposed intentional low apogee of 50km.
Emads MaRV has a G maneuvering capability of 0,2G. This is enough for continuous course change anti-ABM tactic. An Arrow-2 has an similarly low maneuvering capability at those altitudes, but needs a higher one for successful interception.

37km: Zolfaghar in it's descent phase has a G maneuvering capability of 1,3, enough for continuous course change anti-ABM tactic (against Arrow-2 and SM-6).
Emad has a G maneuvering capability of 4,3G, enough for higher G evasive maneuvers (against Arrow-2 and SM-6).

25km: Zolfaghar has a G maneuvering capability of 7,7G, enough for higher G evasive maneuvers (against Arrow-2, SM-6, SM-2, Patriot PAC-2).
Emad has a G maneuvering capability of 25,2G, enough for max. G evasive maneuvers, 20G should be the limit possible by the airframe.

__________________________________

The numbers have changed but the concluding statement of my last post about the Zolfaghar remains the same.
As for the Emad, it is likely already beyond Arrow-2 capability as the numbers show and certainly beyond that of the Patriot PAC-2/3 and SM-2/6. Well possible that the Israelis knew that something like the Emad was coming and countered it with the Arrow-3 (IOC 2017). The great unknown is a possible gas steering system for both of them that could improve their capabilities.

PS: Here is the book on which the calculations are based for those interested: *************/view/jeofkq9csiu7fss/%28AIAA_Education%29_E._Fleeman-Tactical_Missile_Design%2C_Second_Edition-AIAA_%282006%29.pdf

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## BHarwana

PeeD said:


> Back on what I said about the Zolfaghar missile.
> 
> The calculation method I used and its computer integration was made by someone else, a quite complicated formula. I benchmarked it against real test values and found out that the results had a error which was identified and corrected by me.
> __________________________________
> First we have to define methods to defeat ABM systems.
> 
> One method would be continuous low G maneuvering to force course corrections upon the ABM interceptor. This is a method to reduce the range/altitude/speed capability of a ABM interceptor because the interception/rendezvous positions changes more and more over the time.
> 
> Another method are a limited number of higher G evasive maneuvers. The goal is to evade the interceptor because it's max. G capability is reached. Depending on the speed difference of target and interceptor for a sufficiently high probability of kill there must be a difference of G maneuvering capability as already said. Sources vary for SAM/AAM vs. aircraft scenarios, its said that the interceptor must have a 3-5 times higher G maneuvering capability (the state of the art limit is 50G).
> 
> 
> Now I will present the updated data and add the Emad missile to the discussion.
> __________________________________
> 
> First some assumptions were made to get the calculation as close to the reality as possible and not beyond it. Certain angle of attacks are assumed, certain weights for the RVs are assumed.
> 
> I will define several altitudes for different anti-ABM system purposes:
> 
> 60km --> altitude at which a pure MRBM like the Emad can start aerodynamic maneuvering. This is also the max. altitude of the Arrow 2 (the highest known endo-atmospheric ABM system in service). Exo-atmospheric ABM systems such as the Arrow-3 and THAAD are already a threat here, hence only a potent gas steering system could counter them (we have no information that Zolfaghar or Emad are equipped with one)
> 
> 37km --> altitude where a depressed trajectory quasi-ballistic missile with gliding RV like the Zolfaghar would enter the range envelope of a ABM system (below the range of the THAAD and likely Arrow-3 and SM-3).
> 
> 25km --> altitude where endo-atmospheric ABM systems such as the Patriot PAC-2/3, SM-2/3 are still within operational regime with useful probability of kill.
> 
> __________________________________
> 
> So the question is what the performance of Zolfaghar and Emad would be at those altitudes (excluding any potential gas system).
> 
> Here are the results:
> 
> 60km: Zolfaghar's MaRV is out of the game because it's a depressed trajectory BM with a proposed intentional low apogee of 50km.
> Emads MaRV has a G maneuvering capability of 0,2G. This is enough for continuous course change anti-ABM tactic. An Arrow-2 has an similarly low maneuvering capability at those altitudes, but needs a higher one for successful interception.
> 
> 37km: Zolfaghar in it's descent phase has a G maneuvering capability of 1,3, enough for continuous course change anti-ABM tactic (against Arrow-2 and SM-6).
> Emad has a G maneuvering capability of 4,3G, enough for higher G evasive maneuvers (against Arrow-2 and SM-6).
> 
> 25km: Zolfaghar has a G maneuvering capability of 7,7G, enough for higher G evasive maneuvers (against Arrow-2, SM-6, SM-2, Patriot PAC-2).
> Emad has a G maneuvering capability of 25,2G, enough for max. G evasive maneuvers, 20G should be the limit possible by the airframe.
> 
> __________________________________
> 
> The numbers have changed but the concluding statement of my last post about the Zolfaghar remains the same.
> As for the Emad, it is likely already beyond Arrow-2 capability as the numbers show and certainly beyond that of the Patriot PAC-2/3 and SM-2/6. Well possible that the Israelis knew that something like the Emad was coming and countered it with the Arrow-3 (IOC 2017). The great unknown is a possible gas steering system for both of them that could improve their capabilities.
> 
> PS: Here is the book on which the calculations are based for those interested: *************/view/jeofkq9csiu7fss/%28AIAA_Education%29_E._Fleeman-Tactical_Missile_Design%2C_Second_Edition-AIAA_%282006%29.pdf



The method you are trying to use to defeat ABM system is one way but using other approaches will help more.


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## PeeD

Sure and other means are almost certainly part of the two missiles. These are just the maneuvering methods yes.


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## BHarwana

PeeD said:


> Sure and other means are almost certainly part of the two missiles. These are just the maneuvering methods yes.



First you have to understand how ABM system works. The first detection is done by Infrared Sat detecting the heat signature. than the ground Radar comes into play. there is a lot of space junk that also effects the ABM systems accuracy MIRV is one way it uses decoys and delivers a war head but good systems can also differentiated between decoys and actual war heads. Then Interceptor missiles can also maneuver and lock on to a maneuverable war head. There are many thing that come into play. If you really want to learn how to defeat ABM system keep a watch of Houthi missile they have been beating ABM system in some cases.


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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> Back on what I said about the Zolfaghar missile.
> 
> The calculation method I used and its computer integration was made by someone else, a quite complicated formula. I benchmarked it against real test values and found out that the results had a error which was identified and corrected by me.
> __________________________________
> First we have to define methods to defeat ABM systems.
> 
> One method would be continuous low G maneuvering to force course corrections upon the ABM interceptor. This is a method to reduce the range/altitude/speed capability of a ABM interceptor because the interception/rendezvous positions changes more and more over the time.
> 
> Another method are a limited number of higher G evasive maneuvers. The goal is to evade the interceptor because it's max. G capability is reached. Depending on the speed difference of target and interceptor for a sufficiently high probability of kill there must be a difference of G maneuvering capability as already said. Sources vary for SAM/AAM vs. aircraft scenarios, its said that the interceptor must have a 3-5 times higher G maneuvering capability (the state of the art limit is 50G).
> 
> 
> Now I will present the updated data and add the Emad missile to the discussion.
> __________________________________
> 
> First some assumptions were made to get the calculation as close to the reality as possible and not beyond it. Certain angle of attacks are assumed, certain weights for the RVs are assumed.
> 
> I will define several altitudes for different anti-ABM system purposes:
> 
> 60km --> altitude at which a pure MRBM like the Emad can start aerodynamic maneuvering. This is also the max. altitude of the Arrow 2 (the highest known endo-atmospheric ABM system in service). Exo-atmospheric ABM systems such as the Arrow-3 and THAAD are already a threat here, hence only a potent gas steering system could counter them (we have no information that Zolfaghar or Emad are equipped with one)
> 
> 37km --> altitude where a depressed trajectory quasi-ballistic missile with gliding RV like the Zolfaghar would enter the range envelope of a ABM system (below the range of the THAAD and likely Arrow-3 and SM-3).
> 
> 25km --> altitude where endo-atmospheric ABM systems such as the Patriot PAC-2/3, SM-2/3 are still within operational regime with useful probability of kill.
> 
> __________________________________
> 
> So the question is what the performance of Zolfaghar and Emad would be at those altitudes (excluding any potential gas system).
> 
> Here are the results:
> 
> 60km: Zolfaghar's MaRV is out of the game because it's a depressed trajectory BM with a proposed intentional low apogee of 50km.
> Emads MaRV has a G maneuvering capability of 0,2G. This is enough for continuous course change anti-ABM tactic. An Arrow-2 has an similarly low maneuvering capability at those altitudes, but needs a higher one for successful interception.
> 
> 37km: Zolfaghar in it's descent phase has a G maneuvering capability of 1,3, enough for continuous course change anti-ABM tactic (against Arrow-2 and SM-6).
> Emad has a G maneuvering capability of 4,3G, enough for higher G evasive maneuvers (against Arrow-2 and SM-6).
> 
> 25km: Zolfaghar has a G maneuvering capability of 7,7G, enough for higher G evasive maneuvers (against Arrow-2, SM-6, SM-2, Patriot PAC-2).
> Emad has a G maneuvering capability of 25,2G, enough for max. G evasive maneuvers, 20G should be the limit possible by the airframe.
> 
> __________________________________
> 
> The numbers have changed but the concluding statement of my last post about the Zolfaghar remains the same.
> As for the Emad, it is likely already beyond Arrow-2 capability as the numbers show and certainly beyond that of the Patriot PAC-2/3 and SM-2/6. Well possible that the Israelis knew that something like the Emad was coming and countered it with the Arrow-3 (IOC 2017). The great unknown is a possible gas steering system for both of them that could improve their capabilities.
> 
> PS: Here is the book on which the calculations are based for those interested: *************/view/jeofkq9csiu7fss/%28AIAA_Education%29_E._Fleeman-Tactical_Missile_Design%2C_Second_Edition-AIAA_%282006%29.pdf



Your posts are, as usual, highly appreciated.

So the Emad should be able to defeat PAC-3, and Zolfaqar the THAAD. Interesting that the high altitude, high capability THAAD can be defeated by a SRBM but not by a MRBM. It's all the trajectory and altitudes I guess.

How would you think the capability of a Sejjil-2 missile with the Emad warhead fitted would be? 



PeeD said:


> It's possible that the Zolfaghar RV has a gas control or sustainer engine with TVC in its read part. If so, this has to be added to the stated aerodynamic maneuvering capability. If it has such a system, *its performance is very close to the Russian Iskander-M, in aerodynamic maneuvering even above it.*



Can you please elaborate on the bold part?

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## PeeD

@AmirPatriot 

We can't really say one system can defeat another one, but we can say what the physical capabilities are. ABM systems and Iranian BMs are highly classified. There are many mays about their strategies and technologies.

The reason why the Zolfaghar might be able to defeat the THAAD is that it may try to stay outside its engagement envelope. This strategy is claimed for the Russian Iskander and the Zolfaghar has everything necessary to do the same.
The THAAD can't go below 40km altitude at the moment, it's kill vehicle without the protective shroud can't operate in the denser air of let's say 37km at the speed it has. Just staying outside it's envelope is a good and easy strategy for defeat.

The Emad is just so fast that it reach high G levels which would be very hard to defeat by all the endo-atmospheric interceptors.

The Sedjil with a Emad RV would be just more tactical useful, the Ghadr has very similar range performance. The Emad RV can provide all Iranian MRBM's with better anti-ABM capabilities and higher precision (which is of highest importance for conventional missiles).



> Can you please elaborate on the bold part?



Basically Zolfaghars aerodynamic maneuvering capability is very similar to that of the Iskander-M. It all depends on RV and burn-out masses of them about which nothing is known. With some assumptions, Zolfaghar is somewhat, negligible more maneuverable. But the calculations show that the operating model of Iskander and Zolfaghar have to be very similar and hence both are likely to operate in the same way. The known difference in maneuvering capability now is that the Iskander has a gas steering system which has not yet been seen in the Zolfaghar,

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> The Sedjil with a Emad RV would be just more tactical useful, the Ghadr has very similar range performance.



But wouldn't it also be faster to intercept? (correct me if I'm wrong but I think by tactically useful you are talking about its advantages in launch time and preparation). The Shahab-3/Ghadr is speculated to have a speed around Mach 7, whereas there have been specifications shown on posters saying the Sejjil can go up to Mach 13. Would this higher speed trouble more advanced ABMs, or is it still vulnerable to exoatmospheric interceptors unless fitted with gas steering? 



PeeD said:


> The known difference in maneuvering capability now is that the Iskander has a gas steering system which has not yet been seen in the Zolfaghar,



Is this to enable better manoeuvring at high altitudes, or have low drag, or both? 

What are the implications of a Zolfaqar AShBM variant? And does the Emad RV offer enough precision for this role?

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## PeeD

@AmirPatriot 

Yes I meant that by tactical advantage,

The Ghadr has the same speed as the Sedjil if their ranges are 2000km as stated, both around mach 13,3.
Such high speed is good to reduce the range (i.e protected area) of a ABM system, more so if a gas steering system is present for exo-atmospheric course changes. If there is no such system present it is vulnerable to systems like THAAD and Arrow-3.



> Is this to enable better manoeuvring at high altitudes, or have low drag, or both?



Better high altitude maneuvering and exo-atmospheric course changes for the Emad. For the Zolfaghar (if gas system present) and Iskander which are assumed to have a depressed glide trajectory, a gas system improves it's high altitude evasive maneuvering capability.



> What are the implications of a Zolfaqar AShBM variant? And does the Emad RV offer enough precision for this role?



Zolfaghar AShBM is easily possible, its terminal agility and maneuverability would be higher than that of the Khalije Fars missile --> better anti-ABM capability. With 700km range, any carrier and it's fighters can be keep sufficiently far away to greatly reduce their fighting capability.
The Emad RV would need a shrouded terminal guidance to survive the high thermal loads due to it's high speed. Also a mid-course guidance update could be necessary. The Ghadr and Sejil are a little too high range for such a task, but well since the Chinese are working on the DF-26 it might be a good anti-access capability to have,

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> If there is no such system present it is vulnerable to systems like THAAD and Arrow-3.



Do you think Iran will equip its MRBMs with gas steering? After all, they are intended for deterring Israel, and only the MRBMs can reach Israel.



PeeD said:


> better anti-ABM capability



Seeing as it flies below the SM-3, how is the Zolfqar equipped to take on the SM-6?



PeeD said:


> The Emad RV would need a shrouded terminal guidance to survive the high thermal loads due to it's high speed. Also a mid-course guidance update could be necessary. The Ghadr and Sejil are a little too high range for such a task, but well since the Chinese are working on the DF-26 it might be a good anti-access capability to have,



I'm aware of the range issue, the primary being with detection and guidance. I was just curious if the Emad RV had the necessary accuracy and control authority to hit a moving AC.

Just some food for thought, Zolfaqar range if used as an anti-ship weapon. Covering the entirety of the Gulf of Oman, and including the Northern Indian Ocean.

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## PeeD

@AmirPatriot



> Do you think Iran will equip its MRBMs with gas steering? After all, they are intended for deterring Israel, and only the MRBMs can reach Israel.



Hard to say. Gas steering systems have limited maneuvering capability due to limited fuel (same for opposing ABM missiles), if Iranian designers conclude that a course changing strategy would work against system like THAAD and Arrow-3, they may implement it.
Aerodynamic maneuvering on the other hand can use the excess speed a mach 13 missile has for a good amount of maneuvering.



> Seeing as it flies below the SM-3, how is the Zolfqar equipped to take on the SM-6?



Good. The SM-6/-2 need G pulling capability which is above the Zolfaghars limit. It's G pulling capability is at best similar, its speed slower and being slower against a maneuvering target is a bad thing here.



> I'm aware of the range issue, the primary being with detection and guidance. I was just curious if the Emad RV had the necessary accuracy and control authority to hit a moving AC.



Its current system should be sufficient to bring it close enough to the target ship and a potential terminal guidance sensor will do the rest (like on any AShBM). It is certainty maneuverable enough to hit a large target like a ship.

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> @AmirPatriot
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to say. Gas steering systems have limited maneuvering capability due to limited fuel (same for opposing ABM missiles), if Iranian designers conclude that a course changing strategy would work against system like THAAD and Arrow-3, they may implement it.
> Aerodynamic maneuvering on the other hand can use the excess speed a mach 13 missile has for a good amount of maneuvering.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. The SM-6/-2 need G pulling capability which is above the Zolfaghars limit. It's G pulling capability is at best similar, its speed slower and being slower against a maneuvering target is a bad thing here.
> 
> 
> 
> Its current system should be sufficient to bring it close enough to the target ship and a potential terminal guidance sensor will do the rest (like on any AShBM). It is certainty maneuverable enough to hit a large target like a ship.



I'm just bombarding you with questions, I promise I'm nearly done 

Is it conceivable to use the Zolfaqar and/or to take out THAAD and PAC-3 radar sites? We know that Iran has an anti-radiation seeker for the Hormuz missiles, though it would be a whole lot more useful if we knew if, say, the Saudis, didn't bother to move their radars around very often and therefore these radars could be taken out by standard GPS guided missiles.

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## PeeD

You'r welcome to ask.

Well the depressed trajectories and glide phase for Iskander and Zolfaghar (an Fateh series) remains unconfirmed.

THAAD could be modified in future to cover the gap between 40-25km, although this could be a harder task than it may sound.

PAC-3 is very strong up to 15km altitude but its range or the protected area is small, its somewhat like the point defense system of a ABM system. It might be able to intercept the less agile Fateh series but the Zolfaghar is possibly to hard to intercept due to it's higher maneuverability.

This all still makes the Zolfaghar a very useful anti-ABM missile, especially with a passive radar homing seeker as you said.

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## yavar

*US Tillerson Iran put end to missile test, Rouhani response تیلرسون آزمایش موشکی متوقف و پاسخ روحانی*




روحانی: برای تست موشک‌هایمان منتظر اجازه آمریکایی‌ها نخواهیم بود
http://www.espadananews.com/node/3520

تیلرسون: روحانی آزمایش موشکی را متوقف کند
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13960230001317
Tillerson calls on Rouhani to stop Iran’s ballistic missile tests
US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson has called on Iranian President Hassan Rouhani to end the country’s ballistic missile tests in what is Washington’s first reaction to his re-election. Tillerson made the remarks during a joint news conference with his Saudi counterpart on Saturday following Rouhani’s landslide election victory and winning a second term in office through presidential polls held on Friday.He repeated a Western accusation that Iran supports terrorism, saying, "What I would hope, is that Rouhani... use that (new) term to begin a process of dismantling Iran's network of terrorism, dismantling its financing of the terrorist network, dismantling the manning and the logistics and everything that they provide to these destabilizing forces that exist in this region."
"We also hope that he puts an end to their ballistic missile testing," Tillerson said on the first day of a visit by President Donald Trump to Saudi Arabia where he signed a whopping $110 billion weapons deal with the Saudi kingdom.
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/05/21/522640/US-Rex-Tillerson-Iran-Hassan-Rouhani-Saudi-Arabia/

Iranian president: We don't need anyone's permission to test ballistic missiles
http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-rou...ile-program-will-continue-tv-2017-5?r=US&IR=T
Iran's Rouhani: We will not wait for US's permission to test ballistic missiles
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/0...ss-permission-to-test-ballistic-missiles.html

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## eagle2007

PeeD,

It was my understanding that the Ghadr/Shahab-3 family have never reached the same kind of velocity the Sejil has. 

I've seen reports of the early tests back in the early 2000s achieving velocities of ~1.9-2.0 km/s, which is 35% more than the R-17/Scud missiles can achieve. 

This compares to somewhat vague "Mach 10-12" reports of the Sejil (which translates to ~3.5-4.0 km/s I believe). 

While there have no doubt been improvements to its speed in later variants (thanks to extended burn times, mixture changes, lighter warheads), the kind of improvement needed to match the Sejil's would seem to me at least, a bit much for the original engine to achieve. You can only improve rocket engine performance so much. 

It's not to say the Shahab-3/Ghadr family is "slow" by any means, just not quite as capable as the Sejil. 

Concerning the PAC-3 vs Fateh/Zolfaqar missiles. While the PAC-3's range is limited (by design), the fact it has 4x the ready-to-fire missiles as its predecessors greatly increases the odds of getting a hard-kill. 

Consider this, if you look at Patriot sites in Saudi Arabia and other nations, you'll see 4-6 launchers per radar unit (usually located quite close to said radar unit). That's 64-96 ready-to-fire missiles located in a very small area. This is very ideal of defending an air base, as a single "battery" could provide excellent coverage. 

But it is also correct to say the PAC-3 is definitely NOT meant to be a stand-alone system, nor is it advertised as such.

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## AmirPatriot

eagle2007 said:


> It was my understanding that the Ghadr/Shahab-3 family have never reached the same kind of velocity the Sejil has.
> 
> I've seen reports of the early tests back in the early 2000s achieving velocities of ~1.9-2.0 km/s, which is 35% more than the R-17/Scud missiles can achieve.



That's what I always thought too.



eagle2007 said:


> This compares to somewhat vague "Mach 10-12" reports of the Sejil (which translates to ~3.5-4.0 km/s I believe).



Does this help? It gives the range at 2000 km and the maximum flight time at 835 seconds. Though a ballistic missile travels its fastest at the terminal phase and its slowest at the launch phase, so I'm not sure how we can calculate the Sejjil's terminal speed.








eagle2007 said:


> Consider this, if you look at Patriot sites in Saudi Arabia and other nations, you'll see 4-6 launchers per radar unit (usually located quite close to said radar unit). That's 64-96 ready-to-fire missiles located in a very small area. This is very ideal of defending an air base, as a single "battery" could provide excellent coverage.



A very good point. Assuming the PAC-3 batteries are static, an attempt to destroy each site would be a major operation, probably including MRBMs, lots of Zolfaqars and even LACMs in order to overwhelm the system.

On that thought, is it possible to overwhelm the MPQ-65 radar the PAC-3 uses? The MPQ-53 used in the PAC-2 can engage 9 targets simultaneously, and according to armyrecognition the maximum target speed is 3 km/s - though, in my experience, armyrecognition is not a good source for information. However the MPQ-65 is quoted as being able to engage more targets than the MPQ-53.

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## PeeD

With pure ballistic missiles, range determines the speed. The characteristics of the missile are negligible, if it has 2000km it's speed needs to be around mach 13 (see uploaded chart). A much easier situation than one would think.

Regarding the PAC-3: I like the design and its quite effective. You can't design a much more effective missile for that role and Chinese are said to have copied the concept. However at 2mil $ a shot it is very expensive...

The Zolfaghar missile is just not what the PAC-3 was designed to defeat. It's a faster gliding MARV with a G maneuvering capability of 20G when it encounters the PAC-3. I don't say it has a proximity sensor that let it pull 20G when PAC-3 closes, its foremost the high speed and course changing that makes it very hard to intercept by the slower PAC-3.
So its not a saturation scenario with the Zolfaghar but one in which the PK against the Zolfaghar would be so low that it could not be effectively intercepted.

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## eagle2007

Peed,

That does make some sense. To increase the range of a missile, you generally have to either increase the burn time of the motor or use more energetic fuel combination, both of which should increase your velocity at a burnout. 

For example, the infamous R-12 MRBM (known for its role in the Cuban Missile Crisis), is variously reported to have had a ~3.5km/sec velocity (at engine shutdown) and its range is compared to the Ghadrs and Sejil (though very different design of course). 

AmirPatriot,

Well, I did find a better source that seems to confirm that each MPQ-53 can guide up to 9 interceptors at a time..

http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/06.missile/karte003.en.html

It's interesting to note that the -53 is reportedly capable of detecting and tracking up to 100 targets but only focus on 9 to vector interceptors to. 

I can't however find much info on the improvements with the -65 in terms of targeting ability. It would seem odd to NOT increase its ability to engage targets but to quadruple the number of interceptors per launcher.

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## yavar

*سومین کارخانه زیرزمینی تولید موشک در سپاه تاسیس شد/ موشک بالستیک بعدی سپاه با نام «دزفول» تولید می‌شود*
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13960304000523

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## Zathura

yavar said:


> *سومین کارخانه زیرزمینی تولید موشک در سپاه تاسیس شد/ موشک بالستیک بعدی سپاه با نام «دزفول» تولید می‌شود*




This is a quote from the article:
"سردار حاجی‌زاده همچنین با اشاره به موضوع خرید تجهیزات نظامی اخیر توسط عربستان از آمریکا خاطرنشان کرد: این موضوع به هیچ عنوان ما را ناراحت نمی‌‌کند و مطمئنیم در آینده همین تجهیزات علیه رژیم صهیونیستی به کار گرفته خواهد شد."

How? Do they wanna takeover KSA and use those weapons against Israel? Or do they wanna make peace with KSA and bring them to their own side?


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## Draco.IMF

https://www.rt.com/news/389689-iran-ballistic-missiles-trump/

*Iran says it built 3rd underground ballistic missile factory, vows to increase capabilities*

Iran has built its third underground ballistic missile production factory, the head of the elite Revolutionary Guards airspace division said, adding that the Islamic Republic will continue to “forcefully” develop its missile capabilities.

_“Iran’s third underground factory has been built by the Guards in recent years… We will continue to further develop our missile capabilities forcefully,”_ Amirali Hajizadeh said, as quoted by Fars News Agency.

He went on to state that _*"the next missile to be produced is a surface-to-surface missile."*_

Hajizadeh also said that _“it is natural that our enemies America and the Zionist regime (Israel) are angry with our missile program because they want Iran to be in a weak position."_

US President Donald Trump has taken a hardline stance against Iran since taking office in January. During a trip to the Middle East earlier this week, he blamed it for being the main source of instability in the region.

In response, Tehran accused Trump of _“repetitive and baseless claims,”_ saying he was trying to spread _“Iranophobia.”_ 

Trump put Iran _“on notice”_ in February, stating on Twitter that he wouldn't be as _“kind”_ to the Islamic Republic as his predecessor Barack Obama was.

______________________________________________________________

-> they are talking about a missile called „Dezful“, which is "under development"
curious about it...design, range, fuel, CEP....

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## yavar

raptor22 said:


> @AmirPatriot any info about new BM called "Dezfol" ?


*


yavar said:



 موشک بالستیک بعدی سپاه با نام «دزفول» تولید می‌شود

Click to expand...

*


yavar said:


> *http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13960304000523*





Draco.IMF said:


> * they are talking about a missile called „Dezful“, *


*Dezful *
*which 3 hour drive next to city of *
*Khorramshahr *

*the second name of city of Dezful is touted as city of missiles. and it is Twin Sister cities Tyre, in south Lebanon ,*



*


AmirPatriot said:



No information, I presume that will be given in the unveiling, which is to happen "soon".

Click to expand...

*
*Gen Hajizadeh is BSing . they just waiting for congress Treasury to put new missile sanctions on then*
*US Senate committee passes bill to impose new sanctions on Iran*
*US Senate committee approves new Iran sanctions bill*
*US Announces New Iran Sanctions, But Keeps Waiving Sanctions*


*then maybe if Ruhani approve it they come and show missile or missile underground factory that all it is .*
THERE IS NO new underhand missile factory and and it all depend on Rouhani administration i mean Rouhani which missile to show if any or what old factroy .
*Trust me have much much much more the 3 missile factory underground .*
From what we Know about Rohani nothing will happen and nothing will be shown .
Gen HajiZadeh try to send signal and message outside of government TO U.S and Trump that the sanction will not stop nothing


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## AmirPatriot

@PeeD @eagle2007 would it be feasible for a re-entry vehicle to also have a small thruster firing while it is in re-entry, to increase its speed and better evade missile defences?


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## Fafnir

AmirPatriot said:


> @PeeD @eagle2007 would it be feasible for a re-entry vehicle to also have a small thruster firing while it is in re-entry, to increase its speed and better evade missile defences?


Thrusters tend to be fairly low powered and used mainly for attitude/maneuvering control they wont add much speed to a reentry and running them continuously like that would exhaust them very quickly,not to mention that the warhead during and after reentry will still be well in the hypersonic range.Maneuverability is likely to be of more value when it comes to defeating abm systems,another option to get higher reentry speeds would be using a lofted flight profile like the dprk does for its missile tests tho by doing this you will sacrifice range.

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## PeeD

@AmirPatriot 

Fafnir is right that s small propulsion system in the RV won't add enough speed to compensate drag losses due to maneuvering.

Thrusters would be good for exo-atmospheric maneuvering and high altitude endo-atmospheric maneuvering.

A Ghadr or Sejil with mach 13 will impact on earth with around mach 3, not more. It will loose 10 mach numbers due to friction, which can also be "invested" in gliding and maneuvering with the right flight management.

So additional speed is not really worth it but exo-atmospheric thrusters are always useful against exo-atmospheric ABM systems.

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## PeeD

Said that, there is one design solution that combines both a smaller sustainer engine in the RV and thrusters (lateral): A low thrust "sustainer" engine with TVC, an easy and cost effective solution.

This is whats possible in the Zolfaghar and Emad RV. But adding speed is a secondary very insignificant purpose with such a system.

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## yavar

City of Dezful and square in city Dezful

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## yavar

IRGC aerospace commander Gen Hajizadeh third underground ballistic missile production factory, Dezful ground-to-ground ballistic missile




سومین کارخانه زیرزمینی تولید موشک در سپاه تاسیس شد/ موشک بالستیک بعدی سپاه با نام «دزفول» تولید می‌شود
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13960304000523

IRGC aerospace commander Gen Hajizadeh third underground ballistic missile production factory, Dezful ballistic missile
TEHRAN (FNA)- Commander of Iran's Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh announced on Thursday that the country has built a third underground missile production factory recently.
"We will increase our missile power. Our enemies, the United States and the Zionist regime (Israel) are naturally upset and get angry at our missile production, tests and underground missile facilities because they want Iran to be in a weak position," Hajizadeh said at a public meeting with people in the Southwestern city of Dezfoul on Thursday.
"Iran's third underground factory has been built by the IRGC in recent years," he added.
The General further pointed out that the IRGC plans to build its first ground-to-ground ballistic missile that will be named 'Dezfoul' in the near future.
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13960304001036

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## yavar

in celebrations day of resistance on 25 May Iranian Minister of Defense Brigadier General Hossein Dehghan said : today the range of our cruise surface missile is in range 300-KM which has The ability of hitting targets deep into the Indian Ocean,
he add: today we have very looming arm & is capable of targeting in horizon too far targets




سردار حسین دهقان وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح: ما امروز دست خیلی بلندی داریم که میتوانیم اهداف مورد نظرمان را در افق ها یا گسترهای مکانی بسیار دوری مورد هدف قرار بدیم

تمام نیازهای موشکی را خودمان تولید می‌کنیم/ حکام عربستان سرنوشت صدام را به یاد آورند
وزیر دفاع درباره توانمندی موشکی کشور اظهار داشت: امروز به نقطه‌ای رسیدیم که تمام نیازهای موشکی خود در بعد بالستیک و کروز را خودمان طراحی و تولید می‌کنیم و موشکهای کروز با برد 300 کیلومتر در اختیار داریم.
سردار دهقان ادامه داد: امروز تمام تلاش‌ها در منطقه برای تضعیف ایران و حفظ امنیت اسرائیل و بازار تسلیحات آمریکا است. اما ایران استوار ایستاده است و اینکه عربستان تبدیل به انبارهای سلاح‌های آمریکایی شود افتخاری برای آنها نیست.
http://tn.ai/1419674

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## PeeD

The discussion about MARV maneuverability for anti-ABM purposes might create a wrong impression:

Irans (conventional) missile force has such a high access denial potential, that this has been the reason why neither Americans, Israelis, Saudis or any other neighbor has attacked Iran yet.

Basically the Shahab-3 was enough to create such a access denial scenario. It is cheap and its CEP might be up to a kilometer.
But if it is equipped with a submunition warhead, it not only increases its destructive power, it also becomes immune against almost all ABM systems. The scenario is a 1998 vintage Shahab-3 upgraded with a warhead section that contains 10 sub munitions with cost effective ablative thermal shielding and release just after mid-point apogee reached.
Neither THAAD nor Arrow-2/3 nor PAC-2/3 could effectively intercept that payload.

Such a submuntion Shahab-3 is very cost effective and it's useful against large targets like airbases, even if they are hardened.
Another scenario: each of the 20 major enemy airbases around Iran in a belt between 1000km to 1500km need to be shut down to deny effective employment of airpower by the enemy. For 24 hours a day randomly at about 1 missile every 30 minutes each of the bases are attacked. So every day of such a intense scenario 1000 Shahab-3 are spent on access denial purposes of enemy airpower. If this is done for one week, 7000 Shahab-3 are spent and each of the 20 bases and 3500 100kg submuntions have impacted the 3x3km target, every square kilometer of this hardened target has been attacked by around 350, 100kg high velocity warheads.

The airbases will receive early warning about incoming missiles if the radar systems are still working and otherwise satellite sensors can provide coarse data on what might be the target. But operating aircraft in such a continuous attack condition that will involve operation limiting damage and necessary repair work, will have very bad impact on morale. The whole idea of airpower is at risk and this also means that the engaging ground based missile force can't be engaged in return effectively. Bases beyond the 1500km belt become much less relevant for the enemy airpower, because the ranges are outside what tactical aircraft are capable to operate from. This means special assets like F-22 or land based F-35 can't be effectively used.

The number to get that job done, the 7000 basic Shahab-3 might sound too high but how much would one cost and how much budget is needed over lets say 15 years for that? Is this capability worth such a investment?

The situation gets better as the airbases come closer. At Qiam and Shahab-2/1 range the engagement of airbases which project enemy airpower will become cheaper or much more intense. At twice the intensity --> 4 missiles every hour operation might become completely impossible and all short-legged aircraft thus fall out of the war equation.

This is real situation beyond MARV equipped missiles and this is why I disagree with baradar Yavar: IRGC-ASF conventional missile force, is very well useful in a non-nuclear conflict.
It can also be confidently said that Israel was never in a position to attack Iran. Israeli bases, around 10, are very well hardened but after the initial attack the IRGC missile force could badly maul their airpower within a few day long operation --> Israelis would need to use nuclear warheads and this was no option for such a limited operation.
Now Israelis have the nuclear card beside airpower but Saudis with their 10 super bases and 110mrd $ more F-15 would still face the same fate of the described scenario. Iranian missile bases are too well hardened to destroy their fighting capability with a preemptive strike by 1000 Saudi F-15 (plus the still fresh airdefences which will let the missile force start the access denial chain).

However once Iran would become an official nuclear power, this concept of conventional anti-access ballistic missile would become obsolete: A single Shahab-3 launch would trigger a nuclear response by Israelis and Americans.

PS: After reading this you might realize why it was the best idea in modern Iranian military history to dismiss airpower and renovation of the IRIAF and invest everything on the ballistic missile force.

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> The discussion about MARV maneuverability for anti-ABM purposes might create a wrong impression:
> 
> Irans (conventional) missile force has such a high access denial potential, that this has been the reason why neither Americans, Israelis, Saudis or any other neighbor has attacked Iran yet.
> 
> Basically the Shahab-3 was enough to create such a access denial scenario. It is cheap and its CEP might be up to a kilometer.
> But if it is equipped with a submunition warhead, it not only increases its destructive power, it also becomes immune against almost all ABM systems. The scenario is a 1998 vintage Shahab-3 upgraded with a warhead section that contains 10 sub munitions with cost effective ablative thermal shielding and release just after mid-point apogee reached.
> Neither THAAD nor Arrow-2/3 nor PAC-2/3 could effectively intercept that payload.
> 
> Such a submuntion Shahab-3 is very cost effective and it's useful against large targets like airbases, even if they are hardened.
> Another scenario: each of the 20 major enemy airbases around Iran in a belt between 1000km to 1500km need to be shut down to deny effective employment of airpower by the enemy. For 24 hours a day randomly at about 1 missile every 30 minutes each of the bases are attacked. So every day of such a intense scenario 1000 Shahab-3 are spent on access denial purposes of enemy airpower. If this is done for one week, 7000 Shahab-3 are spent and each of the 20 bases and 3500 100kg submuntions have impacted the 3x3km target, every square kilometer of this hardened target has been attacked by around 350, 100kg high velocity warheads.
> 
> The airbases will receive early warning about incoming missiles if the radar systems are still working and otherwise satellite sensors can provide coarse data on what might be the target. But operating aircraft in such a continuous attack condition that will involve operation limiting damage and necessary repair work, will have very bad impact on morale. The whole idea of airpower is at risk and this also means that the engaging ground based missile force can't be engaged in return effectively. Bases beyond the 1500km belt become much less relevant for the enemy airpower, because the ranges are outside what tactical aircraft are capable to operate from. This means special assets like F-22 or land based F-35 can't be effectively used.
> 
> The number to get that job done, the 7000 basic Shahab-3 might sound too high but how much would one cost and how much budget is needed over lets say 15 years for that? Is this capability worth such a investment?
> 
> The situation gets better as the airbases come closer. At Qiam and Shahab-2/1 range the engagement of airbases which project enemy airpower will become cheaper or much more intense. At twice the intensity --> 4 missiles every hour operation might become completely impossible and all short-legged aircraft thus fall out of the war equation.
> 
> This is real situation beyond MARV equipped missiles and this is why I disagree with baradar Yavar: IRGC-ASF conventional missile force, is very well useful in a non-nuclear conflict.
> It can also be confidently said that Israel was never in a position to attack Iran. Israeli bases, around 10, are very well hardened but after the initial attack the IRGC missile force could badly maul their airpower within a few day long operation --> Israelis would need to use nuclear warheads and this was no option for such a limited operation.
> Now Israelis have the nuclear card beside airpower but Saudis with their 10 super bases and 110mrd $ more F-15 would still face the same fate of the described scenario. Iranian missile bases are too well hardened to destroy their fighting capability with a preemptive strike by 1000 Saudi F-15 (plus the still fresh airdefences which will let the missile force start the access denial chain).
> 
> However once Iran would become an official nuclear power, this concept of conventional anti-access ballistic missile would become obsolete: A single Shahab-3 launch would trigger a nuclear response by Israelis and Americans.
> 
> PS: After reading this you might realize why it was the best idea in modern Iranian military history to dismiss airpower and renovation of the IRIAF and invest everything on the ballistic missile force.



Agreed, this was my overall thinking when it came to why Iran's ballistic missiles are such an impressive/important piece in Iran's defense architecture (I bet one can argue that ballistic missiles are arguendtrikergue means to an end in themselves).

Missiles I guess are a better bet when you have a lot of them.

But the real question is does Iran have thousands of ballistic missiles indeed on standby. I don't doubt Iran has maybe around 2 thousand but 7000 is a stretch (and that's of one variety the Shahanb3). Where would you even put that many missiles to begin with?

But if what Yavar said was true about iran having many ballistic missiles production factories, then one should assume that the yearly production especially with the recent 100+ billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia, is kicking out a lot of missiles.

The Houthis/Yemenis have used their more primitive ballistic missiles to very good use against the Saudis, I can't even imagine the level of pure destruction advanced iranian missiles would bring upon the enemy.

And yes, those mountain bases Iran has carved out is the real trump card in my honest opinion. No regular munitions can destroy solid rock like a mountain (nearly perfect defense). I guess one could argue of long range strike air craft hitting the vents and entrances but that's if they get through Iran's thick air defenses and they would have to choose to hit one of the possible hundreds of missile bases. But then there's long range cruise missile attack and other x,y and z factors.

Overall Iran has the right idea when it comes to detterent through missiles, it obviously works.

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## yavar

this one exposed the alot about who is running program,
i think Uzi Rubin prediction is coming true




what to remember not to confuse this one with Emad, Emad is more davance
View attachment 400084

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## Draco.IMF

@yavar

is NK in liquid fuel not more advanced than Iran?
Iran is leading in solid fuel systems i thought....

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## PeeD

The technology necessary to master a MaRV for the Emad and a SCUD class BM are very different indeed.

Just one detail: The Emad has retro boosters to let the booster stage fall down within the borders of Iran. The reason is not anti-collision purposes but anti-ABM. They want that just the MaRV of the Emad appear on the ABM radar not the whole missile body.
Expect the Emad MaRV to have very low RCS with strong absorbing RAM coating. This goes as far that the steering fins are most likely a carbon-carbon composite RAS, virtually invisible. Early warning about what the target of the missile launch is, thus might be only available at very terminal stage.
Technologically it's a whole different beast.

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## eagle2007

ALCON,

Firstly, there actually is a "winged" variant of the Scud in Iran's inventory, Just not sure if it has been officially named yet. 

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Scud/Shahab-1_4big.jpg

It is similar to the new NK Scud variant in having 4 extra control surfaces on the warhead section but this warhead section looks a bit different than NK's. 

The Emad on the other hand is an improved variant of the Shahab-3/Ghadr family and thus its flight performance is going to be on a different scale. 

PeeD,

I would have to disagree with your thinking behind the separation mechanism of the Emad. From my understanding, the boost phase section of the missile will "fall short" of the warhead section even without some kind of thruster mechanism to force them farther apart. Assuming the separation occurs around apogee, the body would follow the same basic trajectory as the warhead until it re-enters and as the air density increases, the drastic differences in aerodynamics would cause the boost section to be slowed down much more so (or perhaps even become unstable and tumble), which would change it's eventual trajectory.

Further, if you're trying to defeat ABM tech, you would WANT the boost section to continue along the same basic trajectory as the now-separated warhead section, as it increases the number of perceived targets and given it's larger RCS, will be more likely to get hit by an interceptor. This is exactly how many Iraqi-modified Scuds made it past the Patriots in Saudi Arabia back in 1991. When the poorly fabricated Al-Hussein/Al-Abbas missiles started to partially break apart upon re-entry, the Patriot interceptors ended up hitting the main body instead of now unintentionally detached warhead sections. Thus increasing the warheads survivability, though by accident.

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## PeeD

@eagle2007 

What you basically said is right and not different from what I said.

Here are the differences:

The Qiam is a example for what you described. It has a spring seperation system for the RV in the later ascend phase.

The Emad is different. It could as well use the Qiam like spring separation system but does not.
It likely seperates right after boost phase in the early ascent phase. So the missile body don't get too high and is still far away, some 1500km from any ABM radar. Only the MaRV alone goes on with the journey.

What your said about the usefulness of the missile body is right for obsolete ABM systems. New systems have increased their resolution and discrimination capability to just find out what is the body and what the RV, they are even accurate enough to identify crude decoys. Hence in 1991 what you described made sense but not anymore.

This all tells that the Emad is even more of a ani-ABM asset.

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## eagle2007

Draco.IMF,

When it comes to solid-fuel ballistic missiles, up until a year or so ago, there was no doubt that Iran was ahead in this field. 

However, with the testing of the Pukguksong-2 (or just PK-2 for short), that gap seems to have closed a bit. According to most estimates, the PK-2 has less range than the Sejil but has much more compact dimensions (Only ~0.1 meter larger in diameter and half the length!). So clearly, North Korea is investing in solid-fuel designs, perhaps as the new standard for their short-to-medium range ballistic missiles, while their longer range designs will continue to use liquid fuel. 

For Iran, while we haven't see anything "new" in terms of range performance in many years, that could be due to a number of factors, most involving improving the Sejil's other performance factors (especially accuracy).

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## eagle2007

PeeD,

Concerning the Emad, here is the problem I have with your theory: burntime. We know the burntime for the Emad, like it's predecessors is likely in the range of ~110 seconds. While it does take some time for the missile to reach max velocity, by the time the engine finally burns out at the end of this ~110 seconds, it's going to be very close to apogee. Even if this final burnout is slightly before reaching apogee, the thin atmosphere at such a high altitude (likely >100km) will allow the boost phase to continue unimpeded along the original ballistic trajectory and thus land (in the case of the Emad) well over 1000km downrange.

The only way you can cause the boost section to fall dramatically shorter of its original trajectory is to either to fire it at a unusually high apogee (which would reduce the missile's overall range, see the last few NK missile tests) or put a thruster mechanism on the BOOST section to push it away from the original trajectory.

It's the application of Newton's Law of Inertia:

An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

A thruster on the warhead section (the possible unbalanced force) will certainly push against the boost section to some degree but unless it's quite powerful (aka the power of an actual rocket motor stage), I highly doubt it will cause it to change it's trajectory. While it's a more effective mechanism than the usual explosive squibs or springs, it's not THAT much more force.

The only way I see your mechanism working the way you think it will is if we were talking about a true multistage missile, in which the trajectory of the 1st stage will be much shorter than the 2nd stage because of the 2nd stage's motor pushing the warhead section to a higher velocity, thus to a higher final apogee, and finally to a greater eventual range.


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## The SC

PeeD said:


> The discussion about MARV maneuverability for anti-ABM purposes might create a wrong impression:
> 
> Irans (conventional) missile force has such a high access denial potential, that this has been the reason why neither Americans, Israelis, Saudis or any other neighbor has attacked Iran yet.
> 
> Basically the Shahab-3 was enough to create such a access denial scenario. It is cheap and its CEP might be up to a kilometer.
> But if it is equipped with a submunition warhead, it not only increases its destructive power, it also becomes immune against almost all ABM systems. The scenario is a 1998 vintage Shahab-3 upgraded with a warhead section that contains 10 sub munitions with cost effective ablative thermal shielding and release just after mid-point apogee reached.
> Neither THAAD nor Arrow-2/3 nor PAC-2/3 could effectively intercept that payload.
> 
> Such a submuntion Shahab-3 is very cost effective and it's useful against large targets like airbases, even if they are hardened.
> Another scenario: each of the 20 major enemy airbases around Iran in a belt between 1000km to 1500km need to be shut down to deny effective employment of airpower by the enemy. For 24 hours a day randomly at about 1 missile every 30 minutes each of the bases are attacked. So every day of such a intense scenario 1000 Shahab-3 are spent on access denial purposes of enemy airpower. If this is done for one week, 7000 Shahab-3 are spent and each of the 20 bases and 3500 100kg submuntions have impacted the 3x3km target, every square kilometer of this hardened target has been attacked by around 350, 100kg high velocity warheads.
> 
> The airbases will receive early warning about incoming missiles if the radar systems are still working and otherwise satellite sensors can provide coarse data on what might be the target. But operating aircraft in such a continuous attack condition that will involve operation limiting damage and necessary repair work, will have very bad impact on morale. The whole idea of airpower is at risk and this also means that the engaging ground based missile force can't be engaged in return effectively. Bases beyond the 1500km belt become much less relevant for the enemy airpower, because the ranges are outside what tactical aircraft are capable to operate from. This means special assets like F-22 or land based F-35 can't be effectively used.
> 
> The number to get that job done, the 7000 basic Shahab-3 might sound too high but how much would one cost and how much budget is needed over lets say 15 years for that? Is this capability worth such a investment?
> 
> The situation gets better as the airbases come closer. At Qiam and Shahab-2/1 range the engagement of airbases which project enemy airpower will become cheaper or much more intense. At twice the intensity --> 4 missiles every hour operation might become completely impossible and all short-legged aircraft thus fall out of the war equation.
> 
> This is real situation beyond MARV equipped missiles and this is why I disagree with baradar Yavar: IRGC-ASF conventional missile force, is very well useful in a non-nuclear conflict.
> It can also be confidently said that Israel was never in a position to attack Iran. Israeli bases, around 10, are very well hardened but after the initial attack the IRGC missile force could badly maul their airpower within a few day long operation --> Israelis would need to use nuclear warheads and this was no option for such a limited operation.
> Now Israelis have the nuclear card beside airpower but Saudis with their 10 super bases and 110mrd $ more F-15 would still face the same fate of the described scenario. Iranian missile bases are too well hardened to destroy their fighting capability with a preemptive strike by 1000 Saudi F-15 (plus the still fresh airdefences which will let the missile force start the access denial chain).
> 
> However once Iran would become an official nuclear power, this concept of conventional anti-access ballistic missile would become obsolete: A single Shahab-3 launch would trigger a nuclear response by Israelis and Americans.
> 
> PS: After reading this you might realize why it was the best idea in modern Iranian military history to dismiss airpower and renovation of the IRIAF and invest everything on the ballistic missile force.


It is still a limited deterrent in cases like the following:

* Underground Airfields: The DPRK *

*INTRODUCTION*

During the Cold War, NATO and Warsaw Pact nations erected numerous hardened aircraft shelters (HASs) to protect their multi-million dollar combat aircraft during wartime. Over time, this practice spread throughout the world's conflict zones, with similar structures being found in many Middle Eastern and Asian nations. Some nations, however, took this practice one step further: they began building full underground facilities (UGFs) to store aircraft. 

UGFs are commonly used in many nations to store and protect military hardware, but only a few nations have used them to protect their combat aircraft. These nations include the DPRK, China, and Taiwan in Asia, and Albania, the FRY, Sweden, and Switzerland in Europe. In this feature, the facilities used by the DPRK will be examined.

*THE DPRK*

Twenty major airfields in the DPRK feature significant UGFs for storing combat aircraft. In addition, two locations feature unique runway layouts incorporating UGFs, and seven airfields feature no UGF storage facilities. The locations of these facilities can be seen in the image below. The airbases incorporating UGFs are marked in red, those lacking UGFs are marked in blue/white, and those incorporating hardened airfields are marked in yellow.


*UGF DESIGN*

There are two basic UGF layouts employed by the DPRK to protect and house combat aircraft. These facilities are either positioned close to the main runway, facilitating ease of movement between the UGF and the operations area, or further afield, suggesting their use primarily for long-term storage. In addition, they are connected to their assigned facilities using two different taxiway styles. Some UGFs are connected by simple taxiways which wind their way through bulidings and terrain to reach the runways, while others appear to have a more interesting purpose, that of a backup launching strip for concealed assets. This information, combined with an analysis of the types stationed at each location, can give an indication as to the employment strategy or readiness level of aircraft contained within. Three airbases will be examined in detail to provide an overview of the DPRK's UGF design, layout, and potential use.

_Sunchon AB_

Sunchon AB is arguably the DPRK AF's most important installation. Situated approximately 40 kilometers northeast of Pyongyang, it is home to the most advanced combat aircraft in the DPRK. Sunchon AB is home to the DPRK's MiG-29 (FULCRUM) and Su-25 (FROGFOOT) fleets. The MiG-29 represents the DPRK's only true modern, 4th generation fighter aircraft. The Su-25 is likewise the only true survivable, modern ground attack aircraft in the DPRK. Sunchon's MiG-29 unit also makes up roughly half of the BVR-capable combat aircraft in the DPRK, with Pukchang's MiG-23 (FLOGGER) unit being the only other BVR shooters in the AF's inventory. Despite widely published claims to the contrary (including a thoroughly ludicrous Wikipedia article), whereby the MiG-29 fleet is believed to be based at a host of other locations, Sunchon is the only facility where the MiG-29 has been imaged inside of the DPRK.

An overview of Sunchon AB is provided in the image below, with significant facilities or features annotated:


Sunchon's UGF is situated in close proximity to the airfield itself. There are three main entrances, with two entrances likely leading to the storage area for operational aircraft. The third entrance may be for long-term storage of derelict or obsolete aircraft, or for entrance into a dedicated maintenance or GSE storage area. Sunchon's UGF is connected by a series of taxiways to the main apron area. 

An overview of the UGF at Sunchon AB can be seen in the image below:


Sunchon AB has ramp space for roughly 34 combat aircraft, with HASs for four more aircraft. There is also an alert or arming/dearming pad at the north end of the runway which can easily park two aircraft. Open ramp space is therefore provided for at least 38 aircraft. 66 modern aircraft, discounting possible attrition since delivery, are based at Sunchon AB, indicating that at least half of them are stored in the UGF at any point in time. 36 Su-25s and 24 MiG-29s were delivered from the USSR, including 4 UB/UBK training versions of each type, as well as 6 MiG-29S (FULCRUM-C) SKD kits assembled in the DPRK. It was the MiG-29S that was used to intercept a USAF RC-135 in 2003.

Analysis of imagery of Sunchon AB provides insight into a number of factors. First, while between 19 and 29 Su-25s are visible depending on the date, only 5 to 9 MiG-29s are visible. This may indicate a much lower readiness level in the far more technologically complicated MiG-29 fleet. Second, it would appear that aircraft are moved from the UGF to the parking ramps for operations, before being re-stored. The image below depicts an open UGF, and an Su-25 being towed from the apron back to its underground hangar:


Furthermore, analyzing the layout of Sunchon AB in relation to the UGF illustrates an interesting feature. A 1350 meter taxiway extends from the UGF to a point beyond the main parking aprons. This taxiway may in fact be an auxiliary runway, allowing aircraft to be prepared for flight while concealed within the UGF and then launched with little or no warning for a strike against the ROK. While the MiG-29 would likely be employed to defend the skies above Pyongyang, the Su-25 is certainly a credible platform for use in this capacity given its relative survivability (compared to other available air to ground platforms in the inventory) and its high payload. Alternatively, this may facilitate the storage of armed, combat-ready MiG-29s in an alert status, protecting them from the elements while other airframes are removed for training flights as needed.

_Sunan AB_

Sunan AB, situated just north of Pyongyang, is the primary home to the DPRK AF's air transport assets. Assigned aircraft include the DPRK's Il-76 (CANDID) fleet. It also serves as the major international air terminal for the DPRK.

An overview of Sunan AB is provided in the image below, with significant facilities or features annotated:


There are no identified combat aircraft at Sunan AB, but the UGF can be used to illustrate a different layout than that of Sunchon AB. In the case of Sunan AB, the UGF is situated a much greater distance from the main operating area, likely indicating that aircraft stored therein are not operational or are being held in storage. Also, the UGF is not connected by a taxiway suitable for use as an auxiliary runway, reducing the chance that assets contained in the UGF are suitable for rapid deployment.

An overview of the UGF at Sunan AB can be seen in the image below:


_Hwangju AB_

Hwangju AB, approximately 40 kilometers south of Pyongyang, is home to a DPRK AF MiG-21 (FISHBED) unit. 

An overview of Hwangju AB is provided in the image below, with significant facilities or features annotated:


Hwangju's overall layout is similar in many respects to that of Sunchon AB. Hwangju features three ramp areas and four HASs for housing its assigned aircraft. It also features a UGF complex for storing MiG-21s, which is connected to the main facility by an auxiliary runway similar to that found at Sunchon AB. The primary difference in the two facilities is the distance. Sunchon AB features a UGF in relatively close proximity to the main airfield, suggesting that combat aircraft may be stored there on a regular basis. Analysis of the available imagery would seem to validate this theory. In contrast, the UGF complex at Hwangju AB is much further removed from the main airbase. Imagery indicates that a consistent number of MiG-21s, around 20, is parked on the main ramp space of the airfield. This suggests that the UGF is not used for primary storage of aircraft, as it appears to be for Sunchon AB's MiG-29 fleet. This illustrates the relationship between UGF location and storage activity in the DPRK AF.

An overview of the UGF at Hwangju AB can be seen in the image below:


_HAS Use_

As operational fighter bases, both Sunchon AB and Hwangju AB possess four HASs in close proximity to the main runway. These facilities are likely employed for alert aircraft, enabling them to be protected to a degree from a preemptive strike. While aircraft parked on open ramp areas are soft targets, those contained in HASs would potentially be available for airbase defense or counterstrike sorties in cooperation with aircraft retained within the UGFs.

*HARDENED RUNWAYS*

Onchon airbase in the west and Kang Da Ri airfield in the east feature unique hardened facilities. These airbases incorporate large UGFs for storage, maintenance, and operations work, with runway surfaces exiting the UGFs in multiple directions. No information is available as to the purpose for, use of, or units assigned to these facilities. The most probable use for these unique airbases is as dispersal sites for combat aircraft. They represent very survivable hardened structures, and could potentially house a significant number of aircraft. The only drawback is that deploying a significant number of aircraft to each facility would be a potential identifiable indicator of forthcoming hostile action. To mask such activity, the DPRK would likely establish routine training deployments to each location.

An alternative use for the hardened airbases has nothing to do with aircraft and at this time represents pure speculation. Given that air activity at either location has never been publicly disclosed or identified in imagery, an interesting concept would be to employ the facilities as hardened SSM bases. The facilities resemble airfields in their layout, but a concrete SSM launch pad is little different from a runway surface. Ergo, the DPRK could stockpile SSMs in these facilities, using the "runways" as mass launching areas. In this scenario, transporting SSMs to the facilities would be far easier to mask than the deployment of combat aircraft. The facilities could represent logical storage and mating points for nuclear or chemical warheads, allowing them to remain protected prior to use. Furthermore, what better way to hide an SSM base than by designing it as an airfield? The only serious additional expense would be the additional concrete used to create a "runway" rather than a number of SSM launch pads. In this vein, given the security and survivability of these facilities, they could also represent launch points for UAVs or drone conversions of obsolete aircraft armed with nuclear warheads. At this point in time, however, the facilities are assumed to be exactly what they appear to be: hardened airfields.

_Onchon AB_

Onchon AB is unique in the DPRK as it possesses both a traditionally designed airfield and a separate hardened airbase facility. The airfield itself is home to a number of old, outdated combat aircraft including the MiG-19/J-6 (FARMER). 

An overview of Onchon AB depicting its location relative to the hardened airbase can be seen in the image below:


The hardened airbase at Onchon consists of a single massive UGF with multiple entrances, and three runway surfaces. The facility was noted as being complete in January of 2004. The two primary runway surfaces lead directly into the massive UGF. A third surface useable as an auxiliary runway is connected to the main facility through a taxiway leading to one of the primary runways and to two secondary, secured UGF entrances. These secured entrances may lack the clearance for combat aircraft to use them to gain access to the UGF, but may provide entrance and exit points for GSE or other necessary equipment. A small exterior parking ramp is also provided, possibly for alert aircraft.

Details of the Onchon AB hardened airfield can be seen in the image below:


_Kang Da Ri AB_

As of 2007, Kang Da Ri AB was still under construction. It is a hardened airbase similar in concept to that found at Onchon. Kang Da Ri AB consists of a large UGF with two separate entrances leading directly to runway surfaces. There is a separate external runway surface, but unlike Onchon it does not lead directly to a UGF portal. Instead, it leads to one of the main runway surfaces via a taxiway still under construction in the latest imagery.

Details of the Kang Da Ri hardened airfield can be seen in the image below:


*STRIKE OPTIONS*

Employing UGFs to store aircraft does not necessarily mean they will remain viable combat assets. There are numerous options available for negating the impact of these facilities. While penetrating weapons may not be able to access the UGFs themselves from above, PGMs could be used in an attempt to destroy the access doors to the facilities, collapsing the entrances and sealing the aircraft inside for a period of time. Taxiways and auxiliary runways could also be cratered and seeded with bomblets from cluster munitions. The value of the UGFs therefore depends on the ability of DPRK personnel to clear and repair runway and taxiway surfaces and gain access to the facilities to allow the assets held within to be deployed.

*CONCLUSION*

The DPRK employs a number of UGFs throughout the nation to house various types of military equipment. The DPRK's Air Force is no exception, and the employment of UGFs will ensure that a portion of the air element remains viable after a first series of strikes by the ROK or USA. 

*SOURCES*

-Satellite imagery provided courtesy of Google Earth

http://geimint.blogspot.ca/2010/07/underground-airfields-dprk.html


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## PeeD

eagle2007 said:


> PeeD,
> 
> Concerning the Emad, here is the problem I have with your theory: burntime. We know the burntime for the Emad, like it's predecessors is likely in the range of ~110 seconds. While it does take some time for the missile to reach max velocity, by the time the engine finally burns out at the end of this ~110 seconds, it's going to be very close to apogee. Even if this final burnout is slightly before reaching apogee, the thin atmosphere at such a high altitude (likely >100km) will allow the boost phase to continue unimpeded along the original ballistic trajectory and thus land (in the case of the Emad) well over 1000km downrange.
> 
> The only way you can cause the boost section to fall dramatically shorter of its original trajectory is to either to fire it at a unusually high apogee (which would reduce the missile's overall range, see the last few NK missile tests) or put a thruster mechanism on the BOOST section to push it away from the original trajectory.
> 
> It's the application of Newton's Law of Inertia:
> 
> An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
> 
> A thruster on the warhead section (the possible unbalanced force) will certainly push against the boost section to some degree but unless it's quite powerful (aka the power of an actual rocket motor stage), I highly doubt it will cause it to change it's trajectory. While it's a more effective mechanism than the usual explosive squibs or springs, it's not THAT much more force.
> 
> The only way I see your mechanism working the way you think it will is if we were talking about a true multistage missile, in which the trajectory of the 1st stage will be much shorter than the 2nd stage because of the 2nd stage's motor pushing the warhead section to a higher velocity, thus to a higher final apogee, and finally to a greater eventual range.



I think you are not aware of the retro boosters of the Emad:







Burnout and separation could be around 100km altitude and 100km range distance while apogee is around 400km.

All this effort can only be for the purpose to hide the missile body from the radar.

@The SC 

Very hardened airbases like those North Koreans could prove as a counter to thats concept yes. However no one in the region has such airbases and the runways (runway damage + fod) would remain vulnerable in the described continuous attack scenario.

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## eagle2007

PeeD,

Fair enough, from how I read your original post, I got the impression you were talking about thrusters on the warhead section, not the main body. 

But if the purpose to hide the missile body from radar, that's seems to be something of a losing fight. Over the next few years, there are going to several AN/TPY-2 radars near Iran's borders. This will be in addition to any Aegis BMD-equipped vessels in the Persian Gulf AND the elevated twin TPY-2 radars in Israel's Negev desert, reported to have a range of 2400km (stretching 800-900km into Iranian territory). Soon they will be deployed just across the Persian Gulf. All this means, as time goes on, the odds of Iranian missile launches going undetected locally is pretty low.

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## PeeD

Yes when TPY-2 are around Iran some day the early warning portion of the concept will diminish. It is already diminished due to US satellite IR early warning system.

The goal would rather be to prevent useful trajectory prediction by the adversary. So you know that a Emad, Ghadr or Shahab-3 is launched but don't know its exact target, they could be up to several hundert km away.
A more extreme case is a modified trajectory where the Emad goes up very straight, disappears and the MaRV moves to the real target trajectory. Anything from Tel Aviv to Riyad or Istanbul could be the target of the stealth MaRV.
The TPY-2 has great discrimination and gain for a radar, plus a impressive range. But against a RAM coated small RV it will face the problems all X-band assets face. Something between 100-200km detection range is a good estimate for what it would be capable of against such a MaRV.

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## Muhammed45

@PeeD 
Sir, do we have any anti satellite program for our future missile? Are we even capable of developing such interceptor systems?
Can F-14 Tomcats carry ASM missiles?


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## PeeD

@mohammad45 

Well baradar, nothing has been officially reported on these topics. I only discuss what has been shown or reported by Iran. Baradar yavar and maybe Soheil seem to have more information than officially released, maybe they feel ready to talk about.

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## AmirPatriot

mohammad45 said:


> @PeeD
> Sir, do we have any anti satellite program for our future missile? Are we even capable of developing such interceptor systems?
> Can F-14 Tomcats carry ASM missiles?



I can say for sure Iran isn't going to use the F-14 for ASM. While such a thing is feasible it isn't realistic to me, primarily because Iranian F-14s are nearing retirement with their 40 year old age and developing this new capability for them is short sighted.

The light and powerful F-15A (even lighter than the more common F-15C/D/E) with the ASM-135 ASAT did do such a thing, and probably an F-14B/D with the powerful engines could but I'm not sure Iran's heavy, underpowered 40 year old F-14A could. 






On 13 September 1985, Maj. Wilbert D. "Doug" Pearson, flying the "Celestial Eagle" F-15A 76-0084 launched an ASM-135 ASAT about 200 miles (322 km) west of Vandenberg Air Force Base and destroyed the Solwind P78-1 satellite flying at an altitude of 345 miles (555 km). Prior to the launch the F-15 flying at Mach 1.22 executed a 3.8g zoom climb at an angle of 65 degrees. The ASM-135 ASAT was automatically launched at 38,100 ft while the F-15 was flying at Mach .934.[7] The 30 lb (13.6 kg) MHV collided with the 2,000 lb (907 kg) Solwind P78-1 satellite at closing velocity of 15,000 mph (24,140 km/h).

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## Muhammed45

AmirPatriot said:


> I can say for sure Iran isn't going to use the F-14 for ASM. While such a thing is feasible it isn't realistic to me, primarily because Iranian F-14s are nearing retirement with their 40 year old age and developing this new capability for them is short sighted.
> 
> The light and powerful F-15A (even lighter than the more common F-15C/D/E) with the ASM-135 ASAT did do such a thing, and probably an F-14B/D with the powerful engines could but I'm not sure Iran's heavy, underpowered 40 year old F-14A could.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 13 September 1985, Maj. Wilbert D. "Doug" Pearson, flying the "Celestial Eagle" F-15A 76-0084 launched an ASM-135 ASAT about 200 miles (322 km) west of Vandenberg Air Force Base and destroyed the Solwind P78-1 satellite flying at an altitude of 345 miles (555 km). Prior to the launch the F-15 flying at Mach 1.22 executed a 3.8g zoom climb at an angle of 65 degrees. The ASM-135 ASAT was automatically launched at 38,100 ft while the F-15 was flying at Mach .934.[7] The 30 lb (13.6 kg) MHV collided with the 2,000 lb (907 kg) Solwind P78-1 satellite at closing velocity of 15,000 mph (24,140 km/h).


Thanks for the reply
As a conclusion Amir, we really need a new fighter in that class. Heavy and capable of carrying out such missions. Su-30 SM using heavy turbo jet engines is the best option between foreign sources. If the current government agrees with raising military budget to the level of 7-8 years ago, we can see a heavy turbo jet engine produced locally. Importing Su-30 SM and manufacturing a homemade one just like S300-Bavar story can make us able to bring ASM into our defensive arsenal, hopefully ofcourse 
USA's low altitude spying satellites especially Space-X are a great danger to our military intelligence, that was why i asked about it.


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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> @yavar
> 
> is NK in liquid fuel not more advanced than Iran?
> ..


no it is not we head . even after showing the Hwasong-12


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## AmirPatriot

mohammad45 said:


> Thanks for the reply
> As a conclusion Amir, we really need a new fighter in that class. Heavy and capable of carrying out such missions. Su-30 SM using heavy turbo jet engines is the best option between foreign sources. If the current government agrees with raising military budget to the level of 7-8 years ago, we can see a heavy turbo jet engine produced locally. Importing Su-30 SM and manufacturing a homemade one just like S300-Bavar story can make us able to bring ASM into our defensive arsenal, hopefully ofcourse
> USA's low altitude spying satellites especially Space-X are a great danger to our military intelligence, that was why i asked about it.



A few points:

1. The Su-30SM, while a capable multirole fighter, is not suited to ASAT missions even with its powerful turbofan engines. The F-14 is a fast interceptor and the F-15 is a fast air superiority fighter. The Su-30 is much heavier and less aerodynamically optimised for high speed flight with those drag enducing canards and second seat. If Iran wanted an ASAT mission I'm sure it would modify one of its MRBMs, the rocket technology is already there and accessible. This is what the Chinese have done. However it's not just a simple matter of modifying the guidance of a missile. You need significant surveillance capabilities to identify and track enemy satellites, as well as a specialised kill vehicle that can make manoeuvres in space. 

2. I doubt Iran needs to copy the Su-30SM. If Iran wanted to copy a modernish fighter, it has had the F-14 for 40 years. 

3. Bavar-373 has no relation to S-300. There are no similarities in the missiles or radars.

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## Muhammed45

AmirPatriot said:


> 1. The Su-30SM, while a capable multirole fighter, is not suited to ASAT missions even with its powerful turbofan engines. The F-14 is a fast interceptor and the F-15 is a fast air superiority fighter. The Su-30 is much heavier and less aerodynamically optimised for high speed flight with those drag enducing canards and second seat.





AmirPatriot said:


> If Iran wanted an ASAT mission I'm sure it would modify one of its MRBMs, the rocket technology is already there and accessible. This is what the Chinese have done.


I have seen it's test, just don't remember the link, would share it with you if i remembered. The Chinese interceptor missile failed to hit the target. I think that the reason is dullness or slowness of ground based missiles compared with air launched interceptor missiles. Perhaps they have improved it, don't know


AmirPatriot said:


> You need significant surveillance capabilities to identify and track enemy satellites


I think that we are completely capable in this field.
http://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/341...ا-512-آنتن-ماهواره-های-دشمن-را-رصد-می-کند-عکس
We are capable of intercepting their Sats however i don't know they are ground based radars or Tomcat is doing it's mini AWACS role just like the past. It is more possible that the interceptor radar is ground based.


AmirPatriot said:


> as well as a specialised kill vehicle that can make manoeuvres in space.





AmirPatriot said:


> 2. I doubt Iran needs to copy the Su-30SM. If Iran wanted to copy a modernish fighter, it has had the F-14 for 40 years.





AmirPatriot said:


> 3. Bavar-373 has no relation to S-300. There are no similarities in the missiles or radars.


And i didn't mean that we want to copy it or there was a similarity between Bavar and S-300PMU2.
I was pointing at two different fighters but in the same class.


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## scimitar19

One question is Bavar system capable to launch missiles from airborne vessels such as F 14 and other aircraft that would be awesome to have airborne launching capabilities where missile is guided from the gound based radar systems. I do believe range of these missiles can be extended to much greater range where fighters can engage targets form far away like "fire and forget" and after missile gets into targeting range, ground radar bases system takes over and guides missile to the target.

The great thing about it is speed that such missile gains from aircraft+speed it gets from its own engines increases the range of the same missile and it gets much harder to dodge. It will be like firing a stone from a slingshot that is on steroids.

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## Draco.IMF

Can someone say whats this weapon system is? Rocket thrower? 
Seen today used by iranian backed militias in Syria

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## Arminkh

Draco.IMF said:


> Can someone say whats this weapon system is? Rocket thrower?
> Seen today used by iranian backed militias in Syria


Shouldn't be Iranian. Had not seen cylindrical launch tubes in Iranian arsenal. Russian maybe?


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## husseinibnali

Draco.IMF said:


> Can someone say whats this weapon system is? Rocket thrower?
> Seen today used by iranian backed militias in Syria


It's just an IRAM launcher!


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## yavar

*Iran Gen Dehghan: extended land attack cruise missile project in past 3 years سردار دهقان موشک کروز*

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## arashkamangir

yavar said:


> *Iran Gen Dehghan: extended land attack cruise missile project in past 3 years سردار دهقان موشک کروز*


There is now a battlefield to field test them.

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## Fafnir

yavar said:


> *Iran Gen Dehghan: extended land attack cruise missile project in past 3 years سردار دهقان موشک کروز*


Any chance of a translation/synopsis?

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## Draco.IMF

Iran Navy purchased already russian Club-S cruise missiles for its 3 kilo class subs

"
3M-54E Club-S is the submarine launched anti-shipping variant, Its basic length is 8.2 m (27 ft), with a 200 kg (440 lb) warhead. Its range is 220 km; (note that its range is less than the 3M-54). It is a sea-skimmer with a supersonic terminal speed and a flight altitude of 4.6 metres (15 ft) at its final stage is 2.9 mach.
"

Im pretty sure Iran will do its best to imporve it drastically in range, better solid fuel, electronics....
Maybe to convert it also into a land launched surface to surface missile.

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## yavar

Fafnir said:


> Any chance of a translation/synopsis?


he's just saying, work on land attack cruise missile is been expanded and improved in past 3 years


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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> he's just saying, work on land attack cruise missile is been expanded and improved in past 3 years



@yavar

talking about "conspiracy theory" about the 4 russian cruise missiles landed in Iran, fake or true?
got Iran its hands on them? or totally destroyed and no use for it?
just conspiracy theory talking here, you know, exchaning conspiracy theory opinions..

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> @yavar
> 
> talking about "conspiracy theory" about the 4 russian cruise missiles landed in Iran, fake or true?
> got Iran its hands on them? or totally destroyed and no use for it?
> just conspiracy theory talking here, you know, exchaning conspiracy theory opinions..


the evidence shows it did, people head bang and the the site where look like something landed there

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> the evidence shows it did, people head bang and the the site where look like something landed there



well when it was a "bang" than missile seems to be too destrcucted to maybe reverse engineer something.
One of the missiles landed in caspian sea i read, if it landed in not so deep region it could be lifted, lets hope iran engineers can do something with them.

About cruise missiles Iran is working on:

You wrote in IMF Forum Iran is approching design of Tomahawk missiles (many of them landed in Iraq/Iran)
Russian missiles are much bigger than Tomahawks, thats why Iran decided to go with US design....

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> well when it was a "bang" than missile seems to be too destrcucted to maybe reverse engineer something.
> One of the missiles landed in caspian sea i read, if it landed in not so deep region it could be lifted, lets hope iran engineers can do something with them.
> 
> About cruise missiles Iran is working on:
> 
> You wrote in IMF Forum Iran is approching design oh Tomahawk missiles (many of them landed in Iraq/Iran)
> Russian missiles are much bigger than Tomahawks, thats why Iran decided to go with US design....





https://imgur.com/1BICkjx




https://imgur.com/eU80fo6




https://imgur.com/kcOYhxO

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## Aspahbod

Fafnir said:


> Any chance of a translation/synopsis?



He says that in the last three years Iran has accelerated the ground-to-ground missile development, both ballistic and cruise, and also both liquid fueled and solid fueled. It is too general of a statement to reveal anything important.

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## Fafnir

Aspahbod said:


> He says that in the last three years Iran has accelerated the ground-to-ground missile development, both ballistic and cruise, and also both liquid fueled and solid fueled. It is too general of a statement to reveal anything important.


Right,thanks


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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> https://imgur.com/1BICkjx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/eU80fo6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/kcOYhxO



yeah, with this pictures we can clearly say the missile is pretty sure heavy damaged
maybe from warhead some electronic components could be recovered (damaged) and analised
missile body can be analised (metallurgy, materials, dimensions,aerodynamic...), engines & solid fuel chemistry.....


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## yavar

ه‌عنوان سؤال آخر، برنامه‌ی موشکی ما در افق 1404 چگونه خواهد بود. به چه نقطه‌ای می‌خواهیم برسیم؟
اصلا شما در حوزه‌ موشکی باید فصل به فصل بیایید و از ما گزارش بگیرید و بگویید که کجایید. چون کارشناسان دیگر افتاد‌ه‌اند توی اتوبان و با سرعت و شتاب زیاد در حال حرکت‌اند. قبلاً در مسیر غیر هموار حرکت می‌کردیم. رفته‌رفته این راه هموار شده است، الآن دیگر اتوبان است و وسیله‌ خوبی هم داریم و به سرعت داریم می‌رویم.

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> ه‌عنوان سؤال آخر، برنامه‌ی موشکی ما در افق 1404 چگونه خواهد بود. به چه نقطه‌ای می‌خواهیم برسیم؟
> اصلا شما در حوزه‌ موشکی باید فصل به فصل بیایید و از ما گزارش بگیرید و بگویید که کجایید. چون کارشناسان دیگر افتاد‌ه‌اند توی اتوبان و با سرعت و شتاب زیاد در حال حرکت‌اند. قبلاً در مسیر غیر هموار حرکت می‌کردیم. رفته‌رفته این راه هموار شده است، الآن دیگر اتوبان است و وسیله‌ خوبی هم داریم و به سرعت داریم می‌رویم.



google translate:

As a final question, our missile program will be on the horizon of 1404.
What point do we want to reach?
At all, you should come to the season in the missile field and report to us and tell us where you are.
As other experts fall, they are moving on the highway and at a fast pace. 
We were already moving in the wrong direction.
It has paved the way, now it's another highway, and we have a good vehicle and we are moving fast.

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## raptor22

Draco.IMF said:


> google translate:



Q: As a final question, How our missile program is gonna be on the horizon of 1404/2025? To which point do we wanna reach in this field?
A: You should come to us season by season and ask us to report where we stand regarding the missile field . 'cause unlike before that we were moving in the bumpy road now our experts are moving on the highway and at a fast pace.
That bumpy road has turned to a highway over time and we have a good vehicle and we are moving fast now.

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## yavar

*Iran Missile technology summary قيام موشك ها ايران*

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## Draco.IMF

raptor22 said:


> 'cause unlike before that we were moving in the bumpy road now our experts are moving on the highway and at a fast pace.
> That bumpy road has turned to a highway over time and we have a good vehicle and we are moving fast now.



Maybe he is indicating Irans approach on hypersonic missile technology, because thats the future.
If Iran "is on a fast move, on a highway, regarding missile engineerin" it can be so understood....

Russia is working on them and already succesfully tested, Zyrkon missile






USA also has its Hypersonic projects:






China is working on it

India with help of Russia (Brahmos II) is working on it






so why not Iran?

the question is can iran, ON ITS OWN, without having help from outside or having a copy from this technology, creat a hypersonic missile?

Nearly all Irans missiles had evolution and origin from missiles from other countries (China/Soviet/..)

Can Iran create a hypersonic missile on its own, wothout a copy?

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## Blue In Green

Is there any truth to the whole Iran using the Star of David as a target for missile tests? 

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tar-of-david-isis-tehran-attack-a7815276.html


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## Stryker1982

Draco.IMF said:


> Maybe he is indicating Irans approach on hypersonic missile technology, because thats the future.
> If Iran "is on a fast move, on a highway, regarding missile engineerin" it can be so understood....
> 
> Russia is working on them and already succesfully tested, Zyrkon missile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USA also has its Hypersonic projects:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China is working on it
> 
> India with help of Russia (Brahmos II) is working on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so why not Iran?
> 
> the question is can iran, ON ITS OWN, without having help from outside or having a copy from this technology, creat a hypersonic missile?
> 
> Nearly all Irans missiles had evolution and origin from missiles from other countries (China/Soviet/..)
> 
> Can Iran create a hypersonic missile on its own, wothout a copy?



Probably not, Iran would need assitance in engine technology in order to match the kinds of misiles you mentioned here, otherwise Iran is too far behind in engine tech to reach that on its own in say, 5 years. I don't think theirs even a known project about hypersonic missiles. Maybe supersonic though.


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## raptor22

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Is there any truth to the whole Iran using the Star of David as a target for missile tests?
> 
> Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tar-of-david-isis-tehran-attack-a7815276.html



*Pareidolia*: is a psychological phenomenon in which the mind responds to a stimulus (an image or a sound) by perceiving a familiar pattern where none exists.
Common examples are perceived images of animals, faces, or objects in cloud formations, the man in the moon, the moon rabbit, hidden messages within recorded music played in reverse or at higher- or lower-than-normal speeds, and hearing indistinct voices in random noise such as that produced by air conditioners or fans.






​

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/881574209218105344

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## Blue In Green

Draco.IMF said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/881574209218105344



This tweet doesn't state clearly what Iran wants to do. Is Iran allocating 300 million for both IRGC elite and Artesh or is Iran allocating 300 million for Artesh alone or IRGC elite alone?

Kind of surprised though, I was under the assumption that Artesh had a missile program or just orders missiles from the Iranian aerospace forces. Interesting though this means Iran will add hundreds of more missiles to its all ready gigantic stockpile. 

Welcome to Iran land of the missiles.


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## AmirPatriot

BlueInGreen2 said:


> This tweet doesn't state clearly what Iran wants to do. Is Iran allocating 300 million for both IRGC elite and Artesh or is Iran allocating 300 million for Artesh alone or IRGC elite alone?
> 
> Kind of surprised though, I was under the assumption that Artesh had a missile program or just orders missiles from the Iranian aerospace forces. Interesting though this means Iran will add hundreds of more missiles to its all ready gigantic stockpile.



The Artesh doesn't use ballistic missiles. The closest it has to ballistic missiles are heavy artillery rockets. Ballistic missiles are designed, built and operated by the IRGC. I'm fairly sure this tweet is incorrect in mentioning the Artesh.



BlueInGreen2 said:


> Welcome to Iran land of the missiles.



_Our missiles will blot out the Sun!_

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## mohsen

http://en.mehrnews.com/news/126266/Parliament-allocates-600mn-to-support-IRGC-missile-program

As such, approximately 300 million dollars have been allocated to promote Iran’s missile program while a similar amount has been assigned to support Qods Force of IRGC, in the absence of whom, terrorists would be ruling in Damascus and Baghdad

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## Blue In Green

Quick question. How many missile test does Iran conduct every year?


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## SOHEIL

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Quick question. How many missile test does Iran conduct every year?



Who knows...

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## AmirPatriot

*Majlis Allocates $300 million to IRGC missile program*

Mehr News Agency reports that Iran has allocated an extra $300 million to the IRGC's missile program.



> Boroujerdi, while pointing to recent meetings of National Security and Foreign Policy Committee which have sought to prepare plan to counter America’s hostile actions, asserted “one main axis of the retaliatory plan is serious support of the country’s missile program as the only available means of confronting enemy threats.”“As such, approximately 300 million dollars have been allocated to promote Iran’s missile program while a similar amount has been assigned to support Qods Force of IRGC, in the absence of whom, terrorists would be ruling in Damascus and Baghdad,” he underscored.






Chairman of the Majlis' Committee on National Security and Foreign Policy, Alaeddin Boroujerdi

I think this allocation is a response to the recent Trump admin's more aggressive foreign policy stance. 

Clearly when Flynn put Iran "on notice", and when the Trump admin started sanctioning the Iranian missile program, it was a signal that Iran needs to re-evaluate US regional posture. 

And when the US sold the Saudis $110 billion worth of weapons, including advanced THAAD interceptors, it has become clear that Iran thought it needed to up its own defensive capability. While $300 million does seem dwarfed in comparison with the huge Saudi order, one must bear in mind that there have been other systems, like the Bavar-373, Karrar tank and various IRIA rifle programs that may augment Iran's conventional defensive capability.

We can only speculate what this $300 million allocation may go towards. It may be towards increased production of existing missiles (like the Zolfaqar which recently saw success in Syria). New missiles could be longer range AShBMs in the same style as the Persian Gulf missile, possibly using a Fateh-313 or Zolfaqar as a base. 

https://irangeomil.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/majlis-allocates-300-million-to-irgc.html

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## asad71

Iran must come out open with a nuclear test. Also manufacture / acquire ICBMs with multidimensional launch platform. Only these will keep predators like Israel and USA away. Through an Israeli-Indian tie up, USA-Israel seeks to encircle the W Asian Muslims incl Pakistan and Iran.


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## Mitho1980

But iran is in bed with india. Now why fear indai


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## sobhan

Mitho1980 said:


> But iran is in bed with india. Now why fear indai


hey guy open your eyes ... the relation of iran and india is changing ... first india droped chabahar project ... then our leader said about kashmir problems as palestine problem is important for islam and now they tie up wiith isreal look at your eyes instead of saying b***shit

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## yavar

*Iran President Rouhani: 80% strategic weapons, missiles been made روحانی: سلاح‌های راهبردی ساخته شد*







AmirPatriot said:


> *Majlis Allocates $300 million to IRGC missile program*
> 
> Mehr News Agency reports that Iran has allocated an extra $300 million to the IRGC's missile program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chairman of the Majlis' Committee on National Security and Foreign Policy, Alaeddin Boroujerdi
> 
> I think this allocation is a response to the recent Trump admin's more aggressive foreign policy stance.
> 
> Clearly when Flynn put Iran "on notice", and when the Trump admin started sanctioning the Iranian missile program, it was a signal that Iran needs to re-evaluate US regional posture.
> 
> And when the US sold the Saudis $110 billion worth of weapons, including advanced THAAD interceptors, it has become clear that Iran thought it needed to up its own defensive capability. While $300 million does seem dwarfed in comparison with the huge Saudi order, one must bear in mind that there have been other systems, like the Bavar-373, Karrar tank and various IRIA rifle programs that may augment Iran's conventional defensive capability.
> 
> We can only speculate what this $300 million allocation may go towards. It may be towards increased production of existing missiles (like the Zolfaqar which recently saw success in Syria). New missiles could be longer range AShBMs in the same style as the Persian Gulf missile, possibly using a Fateh-313 or Zolfaqar as a base.
> 
> https://irangeomil.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/majlis-allocates-300-million-to-irgc.html


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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> *Iran President Rouhani: 80% strategic weapons, missiles been made روحانی: سلاح‌های راهبردی ساخته شد*



Maskharast! Ba tahdeed ha va Tahreem ha keh Iran dar peesh dorreh Iran ta 10 sol e ayandeh kam e kam bayad Soli $40 Billion USD kharj Nirou ha e mossalah bokoneh! Va choon Nirou e Havvai ghavii nadareem as $40 Billion kam e kam $10 Billion USD bayad faghat kharj sokht e: 

1.Moshakha Bellastic sookht jammed ($2Billion) 2. Moshak ha Cruise Zamin beh Zamin($2Billion) 3. Pahpadha($2Billion), 4.Tajheezadeh zeddeh havaii($2Billion) 5. Sokht Paygahha e nezami ($1Billion) 6.Partabkonandegon e moteharek beshavad ($1 Billion)

Aghar Iran bekhad be toor motevaset be 1 Million adam faghat soli $10,000 USD hoghoogh, Tajheezat, ghaza, haml o naghl, bemeh... ekhtesos bedeh mesheh soli $10 Billion USD

Halla yeki be man begheh bozdarandeghi kodoom beshtareh va kodoom % hamleh be Iran o kam tar mekoneh?


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## drmeson

Rumor has it that GPS guidance for MRBM and tests of series of LACM (Ya-Ali) is on agenda. 

Ya-Ali means more attacks on ISIS will be carried out.

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## Draco.IMF

VEVAK said:


> Maskharast! Ba tahdeed ha va Tahreem ha keh Iran dar peesh dorreh Iran ta 10 sol e ayandeh kam e kam bayad Soli $40 Billion USD kharj Nirou ha e mossalah bokoneh! Va choon Nirou e Havvai ghavii nadareem as $40 Billion kam e kam $10 Billion USD bayad faghat kharj sokht e:
> 
> 1.Moshakha Bellastic sookht jammed ($2Billion) 2. Moshak ha Cruise Zamin beh Zamin($2Billion) 3. Pahpadha($2Billion), 4.Tajheezadeh zeddeh havaii($2Billion) 5. Sokht Paygahha e nezami ($1Billion) 6.Partabkonandegon e moteharek beshavad ($1 Billion)
> 
> Aghar Iran bekhad be toor motevaset be 1 Million adam faghat soli $10,000 USD hoghoogh, Tajheezat, ghaza, haml o naghl, bemeh... ekhtesos bedeh mesheh soli $10 Billion USD
> 
> Halla yeki be man begheh bozdarandeghi kodoom beshtareh va kodoom % hamleh be Iran o kam tar mekoneh?



oh cmon, dont you english anymore?



drmeson said:


> Rumor has it that GPS guidance for MRBM and tests of series of LACM (Ya-Ali) is on agenda.
> 
> Ya-Ali means more attacks on ISIS will be carried out.



Iran will attack ISIS with Ya-Ali cruise missiles?

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## Hack-Hook

Well I'm sure there wont be any GPS guideline on Iranian missile as that will be making the system useless as somebody can scramble the signals just by pressing a button .


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## drmeson

It could be Glonass or Beidou along with INS. 

Ya-Ali LACM will be used in future because Soumar is apparently too precious to be exposed this way.

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## mohsen

yavar said:


> *Iran President Rouhani: 80% strategic weapons, missiles been made روحانی: سلاح‌های راهبردی ساخته شد*


he is a sheer liar. if anything has happened, it's due to IRGC and Parliament, not the government.

*کاهش 85درصدی بودجه دفاعی کشور در دولت روحانی/ آقای روحانی! صحبت هایتان علیه شهرهای موشکی را باور کنیم یا ادعای ساخت موشک تان را؟*

*گروه سیاسی - رجانیوز،* « ما متوقف کردیم؟ ما کامل کردیم فناوری هسته ای را» این جمله ای است که حسن روحانی با اعتماد به نفس کامل در سال 92 گفت و مدعی شد که نه تنها فعالیت هسته ای در سال های 82 تا84 توسط وی متوقف نشده است که او این چرخه راهبردی را کامل کرده است! و اتفاقا ایشان در ادامه کامل کردن چرخه هسته ای بار دیگر در سال 92 همه فعالیت های صلح آمیز هسته ای را تعلیق کردند!

حالا حسن روحانی ادعایی جدید را مطرح کرده است. وی که در اولین سال ریاست جمهوری خود بودجه دفاعی کشور را به شدت کاهش داد امروز در جشنواره عمران سلامت در صحبت هایی کاملا مرتبط با موضوع همایش(!) گفت: « آنها که از خاکمان با موشک یک مرکز تروریستی را هدف قرار دادند فداکاری کردند، اما موشک را کی درست کرد؟ سازنده این موشک دولت و وزارت دفاع است و پول آن را بخش اقتصادی کشور تامین می‌کند.» وی ادامه داد: «سلاح‌های راهبردی ساخته شده در دولت یازدهم حدود ۸۰ درصد کل میزان قبلی است.»

حسن روحانی که در مناظرات انتخاباتی با حمله به اقتدار موشکی سپاه، نه تنها به شهرهای موشکی سپاه اعتراض کردکه شعارنویسی روی موشک ها را نیز تحمل نکرد و نسبت به آن انتقاد شدید کرد اما امروز در واکنشی کاملا متفاوت نمادهای اقتدار کشور را به نام دولت خود ثبت کرد.
Video Player
 دانلود فیلم 
فیلم اظهارات روحانی علیه فعالیت های موشکی در مناظره ها

*اما بودجه دفاعی کشور در دولت حسن روحانی چقدر بوده است؟*

بودجه دفاعی کشور علیرغم افزایش هر ساله که در دولت های قبل رایج بوده است، در آغاز دولت یازدهم به یک هفتم رسید. یعنی حسن روحانی در ابتدای ورود خود در جهت حمایت از صنایع دفاعی کشور 85 درصد از بودجه آن را حذف کرد!

بودجه دفاعی کشور تا حدی کم شد که با وجود افزایش سالانه آن هنوز هم نتوانسته به رقم 4سال گذشته خود برسد.
میزان این بودجه از سال های92 تا 96 عبارت بودند از:
سال 92: 13.5 هزار میلیارد تومان
سال 93: 2 هزار میلیارد تومان (11.5هزار میلیارد تومان کاهش)
سال 94: 2.3 هزار میلیارد تومان
سال 95: 3.1 هزار میلیارد تومان
سال 96: 4.2 هزار میلیارد

دولت یازدهم بدون اشاره به کاهش 11.5 هزار میلیاردی بودجه دفاعی کشور در سال 92، صرفا به افزایش های جزئی در این ردیف بودجه در سالهای مختلف اشاره کرده و با بازی با آمار، خود را طرفدار افزایش بودجه دفاعی کشور و صاحب موشک های سپاه نشان می‌دهد.

سال گذشته نیز دولت روحانی در لایحه بودجه 95، مجموع بودجه نهادهای نظامی را 5 هزارمیلیارد تومان کاهش داده بود که با واکنش تند مجلس روبرو شد. نوبخت در واکنش به این واکنش مجلس اعلام کرد که برای تقویت بنیه دفاعی اصلا پولی وجود ندارد! این در حالی است که همین میزان بودجه نیز هیچگاه توسط دولت محقق نشد و سال گذشته سرلشگر باقری رئیس ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح از تحقق تنها 20% از بودجه نظامی کشور از سوی دولت خبر داده بود.

بهتر است آقای روحانی به جای اینکه ساخت موشک های شهیدتهرانی مقدم و فعالیت های هسته ای احمدی روشن ها را به نام خود ثبت کند به مانع گذاری در توسعه دفاعی کشور و فعالیت های صلح آمیز هسته ای پایان دهد.

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## AmirPatriot

mohsen said:


> he is a sheer liar. if anything has happened, it's due to IRGC and Parliament, not the government.
> 
> *کاهش 85درصدی بودجه دفاعی کشور در دولت روحانی/ آقای روحانی! صحبت هایتان علیه شهرهای موشکی را باور کنیم یا ادعای ساخت موشک تان را؟*
> 
> *گروه سیاسی - رجانیوز،* « ما متوقف کردیم؟ ما کامل کردیم فناوری هسته ای را» این جمله ای است که حسن روحانی با اعتماد به نفس کامل در سال 92 گفت و مدعی شد که نه تنها فعالیت هسته ای در سال های 82 تا84 توسط وی متوقف نشده است که او این چرخه راهبردی را کامل کرده است! و اتفاقا ایشان در ادامه کامل کردن چرخه هسته ای بار دیگر در سال 92 همه فعالیت های صلح آمیز هسته ای را تعلیق کردند!
> 
> حالا حسن روحانی ادعایی جدید را مطرح کرده است. وی که در اولین سال ریاست جمهوری خود بودجه دفاعی کشور را به شدت کاهش داد امروز در جشنواره عمران سلامت در صحبت هایی کاملا مرتبط با موضوع همایش(!) گفت: « آنها که از خاکمان با موشک یک مرکز تروریستی را هدف قرار دادند فداکاری کردند، اما موشک را کی درست کرد؟ سازنده این موشک دولت و وزارت دفاع است و پول آن را بخش اقتصادی کشور تامین می‌کند.» وی ادامه داد: «سلاح‌های راهبردی ساخته شده در دولت یازدهم حدود ۸۰ درصد کل میزان قبلی است.»
> 
> حسن روحانی که در مناظرات انتخاباتی با حمله به اقتدار موشکی سپاه، نه تنها به شهرهای موشکی سپاه اعتراض کردکه شعارنویسی روی موشک ها را نیز تحمل نکرد و نسبت به آن انتقاد شدید کرد اما امروز در واکنشی کاملا متفاوت نمادهای اقتدار کشور را به نام دولت خود ثبت کرد.
> Video Player
> دانلود فیلم
> فیلم اظهارات روحانی علیه فعالیت های موشکی در مناظره ها
> 
> *اما بودجه دفاعی کشور در دولت حسن روحانی چقدر بوده است؟*
> 
> بودجه دفاعی کشور علیرغم افزایش هر ساله که در دولت های قبل رایج بوده است، در آغاز دولت یازدهم به یک هفتم رسید. یعنی حسن روحانی در ابتدای ورود خود در جهت حمایت از صنایع دفاعی کشور 85 درصد از بودجه آن را حذف کرد!
> 
> بودجه دفاعی کشور تا حدی کم شد که با وجود افزایش سالانه آن هنوز هم نتوانسته به رقم 4سال گذشته خود برسد.
> میزان این بودجه از سال های92 تا 96 عبارت بودند از:
> سال 92: 13.5 هزار میلیارد تومان
> سال 93: 2 هزار میلیارد تومان (11.5هزار میلیارد تومان کاهش)
> سال 94: 2.3 هزار میلیارد تومان
> سال 95: 3.1 هزار میلیارد تومان
> سال 96: 4.2 هزار میلیارد
> 
> دولت یازدهم بدون اشاره به کاهش 11.5 هزار میلیاردی بودجه دفاعی کشور در سال 92، صرفا به افزایش های جزئی در این ردیف بودجه در سالهای مختلف اشاره کرده و با بازی با آمار، خود را طرفدار افزایش بودجه دفاعی کشور و صاحب موشک های سپاه نشان می‌دهد.
> 
> سال گذشته نیز دولت روحانی در لایحه بودجه 95، مجموع بودجه نهادهای نظامی را 5 هزارمیلیارد تومان کاهش داده بود که با واکنش تند مجلس روبرو شد. نوبخت در واکنش به این واکنش مجلس اعلام کرد که برای تقویت بنیه دفاعی اصلا پولی وجود ندارد! این در حالی است که همین میزان بودجه نیز هیچگاه توسط دولت محقق نشد و سال گذشته سرلشگر باقری رئیس ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح از تحقق تنها 20% از بودجه نظامی کشور از سوی دولت خبر داده بود.
> 
> بهتر است آقای روحانی به جای اینکه ساخت موشک های شهیدتهرانی مقدم و فعالیت های هسته ای احمدی روشن ها را به نام خود ثبت کند به مانع گذاری در توسعه دفاعی کشور و فعالیت های صلح آمیز هسته ای پایان دهد.


If it's to do with parliament, it's to do with government... government drafts bills that parliament votes on.

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## mohsen

AmirPatriot said:


> If it's to do with parliament, it's to do with government... government drafts bills that parliament votes on.





> سال گذشته نیز دولت روحانی در لایحه بودجه 95، مجموع بودجه نهادهای نظامی را 5 هزارمیلیارد تومان کاهش داده بود که با واکنش تند مجلس روبرو شد. نوبخت در واکنش به این واکنش مجلس اعلام کرد که برای تقویت بنیه دفاعی اصلا پولی وجود ندارد! این در حالی است که همین میزان بودجه نیز هیچگاه توسط دولت محقق نشد و سال گذشته سرلشگر باقری رئیس ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح از تحقق تنها 20% از بودجه نظامی کشور از سوی دولت خبر داده بود



this was the government who reduced the budget in the first year.
this was the supreme leader who defined a minimum amount of defense budget to overcome the government sabotages in the bills.
it was the government who wanted to steal 5000 billion tomans from the last year budget,
it was the government who didn't even pay the budget which was ratified in Parliament.
this was and is the government who is advertising against IRGC missiles 24/7.
this was the government who wanted to make another deal on our missiles (JCPOA 2,3,...)
This is the IRGC's financial activities which paves the way for their missile programs, and this is the government which is against their activities.

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## Dai Toruko

mohsen said:


> this was the government who reduced the budget in the first year.
> this was the supreme leader who defined a minimum amount of defense budget to overcome the government sabotages in the bills.
> it was the government who wanted to steal 5000 billion tomans from the last year budget,
> it was the government who didn't even pay the budget which was ratified in Parliament.
> this was and is the government who is advertising against IRGC missiles 24/7.
> this was the government who wanted to make another deal on our missiles (JCPOA 2,3,...)
> This is the IRGC's financial activities which paves the way for their missile programs, and this is the government which is against their activities.



Is Rouhani a traitor?

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## Draco.IMF

IRGC doesnt care what Rouhani do or say....


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## Blue In Green

Dai Toruko said:


> Is Rouhani a traitor?


He's more of an pragmatic appeaser.

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## AmirPatriot

Dai Toruko said:


> Is Rouhani a traitor?



The political right all over the world always say the same thing about the other side, that they are "traitors".

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## mohsen

به گزارش رجانیوز،ساعاتی پس از آنکه حسن روحانی در چرخشی 180 درجه ای نسبت به سخنان قبلی خود درباره «موشک»، گفت: «موشک را کی درست کرد؟ سازنده این موشک دولت و وزارت دفاع است و پول آن را بخش اقتصادی کشور تامین می‌کند.» سعید جلیلی بدون نام آوردن از روحانی، در کانال تلگرام خود نوشت:

«بعضی ها بلافاصله وقتی که موفقیتی به دست می‌آید، ظاهر می شوند! همین‌هایی که از زیر بار مسؤولیت شانه خالی می‌کنند: « الَّذينَ يَتَرَبَّصُونَ بِکُمْ فَإِنْ کانَ لَکُمْ فَتْحٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ قالُوا أَ لَمْ نَکُنْ مَعَکُمْ ». تعبیر قرآن است که می‌گوید اینها نگاه می‌کنند و اگر دیدند موفقیتی حاصل شد و غنائمی به دست آمد، آن وقت می‌گویند ما که بودیم! کسانی دیگر هم هستند که ظاهراً با شما هستند: «و من الناس من يقول آمنا بالله». اما اگر مشکلاتی پیش بیاید « فَإِذَا أُوذِيَ فِي اللَّهِ». یک دفعه می‌گویند چه شد؟ « جَعَلَ فِتْنَةَ النَّاسِ كَعَذَابِ اللَّهِ». می‌گویند چرا این طور شد؟ چرا این مشکلات پیش آمد؟ چقدر هزینه بدهیم؟ اما اگر از آن طرف پیروزی کسب شود، «جاءَ نَصْرٌ مِنْ رَبِّکَ لَیَقُولُنَّ إِنَّا کُنَّا مَعَکُمْ». می‌گویند ما که از اول با شما بودیم! اصلاً ما هم بودیم.»




Dai Toruko said:


> Is Rouhani a traitor?


it depends!
whether destroying tens of billions of our nuclear infrastructures and postponing our advancement for decades in return of nothing is a treason or not!
whether shutting down our space program in return of nothing is a treason or not!
whether undermining security forces in the region like middle east is a treason or not.
whether unprecedented imports / shutting down of domestic factories / fabricating numbers to fool people is a treason or not.
whether appointing corrupted peoples (Crescent deal) as our oil minister is a treason or not.
whether supporting of MKO terrorists which have killed 17000 Iranian is a treason or not.


My answer is :without doubt.

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## VEVAK

mohsen said:


> he is a sheer liar. if anything has happened, it's due to IRGC and Parliament, not the government.
> 
> *کاهش 85درصدی بودجه دفاعی کشور در دولت روحانی/ آقای روحانی! صحبت هایتان علیه شهرهای موشکی را باور کنیم یا ادعای ساخت موشک تان را؟*
> 
> *گروه سیاسی - رجانیوز،* « ما متوقف کردیم؟ ما کامل کردیم فناوری هسته ای را» این جمله ای است که حسن روحانی با اعتماد به نفس کامل در سال 92 گفت و مدعی شد که نه تنها فعالیت هسته ای در سال های 82 تا84 توسط وی متوقف نشده است که او این چرخه راهبردی را کامل کرده است! و اتفاقا ایشان در ادامه کامل کردن چرخه هسته ای بار دیگر در سال 92 همه فعالیت های صلح آمیز هسته ای را تعلیق کردند!
> 
> حالا حسن روحانی ادعایی جدید را مطرح کرده است. وی که در اولین سال ریاست جمهوری خود بودجه دفاعی کشور را به شدت کاهش داد امروز در جشنواره عمران سلامت در صحبت هایی کاملا مرتبط با موضوع همایش(!) گفت: « آنها که از خاکمان با موشک یک مرکز تروریستی را هدف قرار دادند فداکاری کردند، اما موشک را کی درست کرد؟ سازنده این موشک دولت و وزارت دفاع است و پول آن را بخش اقتصادی کشور تامین می‌کند.» وی ادامه داد: «سلاح‌های راهبردی ساخته شده در دولت یازدهم حدود ۸۰ درصد کل میزان قبلی است.»
> 
> حسن روحانی که در مناظرات انتخاباتی با حمله به اقتدار موشکی سپاه، نه تنها به شهرهای موشکی سپاه اعتراض کردکه شعارنویسی روی موشک ها را نیز تحمل نکرد و نسبت به آن انتقاد شدید کرد اما امروز در واکنشی کاملا متفاوت نمادهای اقتدار کشور را به نام دولت خود ثبت کرد.
> Video Player
> دانلود فیلم
> فیلم اظهارات روحانی علیه فعالیت های موشکی در مناظره ها
> 
> *اما بودجه دفاعی کشور در دولت حسن روحانی چقدر بوده است؟*
> 
> بودجه دفاعی کشور علیرغم افزایش هر ساله که در دولت های قبل رایج بوده است، در آغاز دولت یازدهم به یک هفتم رسید. یعنی حسن روحانی در ابتدای ورود خود در جهت حمایت از صنایع دفاعی کشور 85 درصد از بودجه آن را حذف کرد!
> 
> بودجه دفاعی کشور تا حدی کم شد که با وجود افزایش سالانه آن هنوز هم نتوانسته به رقم 4سال گذشته خود برسد.
> میزان این بودجه از سال های92 تا 96 عبارت بودند از:
> سال 92: 13.5 هزار میلیارد تومان
> سال 93: 2 هزار میلیارد تومان (11.5هزار میلیارد تومان کاهش)
> سال 94: 2.3 هزار میلیارد تومان
> سال 95: 3.1 هزار میلیارد تومان
> سال 96: 4.2 هزار میلیارد
> 
> دولت یازدهم بدون اشاره به کاهش 11.5 هزار میلیاردی بودجه دفاعی کشور در سال 92، صرفا به افزایش های جزئی در این ردیف بودجه در سالهای مختلف اشاره کرده و با بازی با آمار، خود را طرفدار افزایش بودجه دفاعی کشور و صاحب موشک های سپاه نشان می‌دهد.
> 
> سال گذشته نیز دولت روحانی در لایحه بودجه 95، مجموع بودجه نهادهای نظامی را 5 هزارمیلیارد تومان کاهش داده بود که با واکنش تند مجلس روبرو شد. نوبخت در واکنش به این واکنش مجلس اعلام کرد که برای تقویت بنیه دفاعی اصلا پولی وجود ندارد! این در حالی است که همین میزان بودجه نیز هیچگاه توسط دولت محقق نشد و سال گذشته سرلشگر باقری رئیس ستاد کل نیروهای مسلح از تحقق تنها 20% از بودجه نظامی کشور از سوی دولت خبر داده بود.
> 
> بهتر است آقای روحانی به جای اینکه ساخت موشک های شهیدتهرانی مقدم و فعالیت های هسته ای احمدی روشن ها را به نام خود ثبت کند به مانع گذاری در توسعه دفاعی کشور و فعالیت های صلح آمیز هسته ای پایان دهد.



Ean addad as khod sakhtegheest va motealegh be hoghooghe nirou ha e mosallah e na bodjeh Nezami Iran (Artesh, Sepah, Basij)

Doshtaneh Artesheh 10 Millioni beh heech dardi nemekhoreh agheh natooni onaro dorost mosallah koni!

Va agar bekhay har sarbozi ro ba saddeh tarreen tajheezat mosallah koni
1.AK-47 $1,000
2.Lebos (Az kollah ta kafsh), Zereh, tofang dasti, teer (ta'mir, taveez va shostoshoo e on be moddateh 1 sol) $500
3.Beseem va degar vassaeleh mokhaberati beh toor motevaset nafari $500
4.Haml o naghl sabook be toor motevaset bara har nafar va as arzoontareen no (Motor, Jeep Safir,...) nafari $3000
5.Infantry support weapons (poshteebani e nazdeek) (RPG, ATGM, Morter, Grenade) be toor motevaset nafari $1000
6.Hoghoogh, bemeh o ghaza be toor motevaset soli $4000 (yani faghat Mahi $333 USD)

ro kol kam e kam mesheh $10,000 ba vassaeli keh Takfiri ha ham daran
halla agheh jang besheh va bekhay $10,000 ro 10 Million nafar kharj koni mesheh chand? mesheh $100 Billion USD!!!!
Pass dar jang doshtaneh Artesheh 10 Millioni beshtar be zarrareh Iran e

Halla be jayeh $100 Billion agar Iran $20 Billion USD kharj sokhteh 40,000 moshak $500,000 Bellastic ya Cruise bokoneh va $5 Billion kharj paygahha, partobkonandegon moteharek va hoghoogh afradeh lazem bara negahdori va partob onha bokonad heech dollati joraateh hamlleh be Iran ro nakhahad dosht!

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## Draco.IMF

VEVAK said:


> Ean addad as khod sakhtegheest va motealegh be hoghooghe nirou ha e mosallah e na bodjeh Nezami Iran (Artesh, Sepah, Basij)
> 
> Doshtaneh Artesheh 10 Millioni beh heech dardi nemekhoreh agheh natooni onaro dorost mosallah koni!
> 
> Va agar bekhay har sarbozi ro ba saddeh tarreen tajheezat mosallah koni
> 1.AK-47 $1,000
> 2.Lebos (Az kollah ta kafsh), Zereh, tofang dasti, teer (ta'mir, taveez va shostoshoo e on be moddateh 1 sol) $500
> 3.Beseem va degar vassaeleh mokhaberati beh toor motevaset nafari $500
> 4.Haml o naghl sabook be toor motevaset bara har nafar va as arzoontareen no (Motor, Jeep Safir,...) nafari $3000
> 5.Infantry support weapons (poshteebani e nazdeek) (RPG, ATGM, Morter, Grenade) be toor motevaset nafari $1000
> 6.Hoghoogh, bemeh o ghaza be toor motevaset soli $4000 (yani faghat Mahi $333 USD)
> 
> ro kol kam e kam mesheh $10,000 ba vassaeli keh Takfiri ha ham daran
> halla agheh jang besheh va bekhay $10,000 ro 10 Million nafar kharj koni mesheh chand? mesheh $100 Billion USD!!!!
> Pass dar jang doshtaneh Artesheh 10 Millioni beshtar be zarrareh Iran e
> 
> Halla be jayeh $100 Billion agar Iran $20 Billion USD kharj sokhteh 40,000 moshak $500,000 Bellastic ya Cruise bokoneh va $5 Billion kharj paygahha, partobkonandegon moteharek va hoghoogh afradeh lazem bara negahdori va partob onha bokonad heech dollati joraateh hamlleh be Iran ro nakhahad dosht!



you dont english anymore
你不再英文了 
شما دیگر انگلیسی نیستید

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## mohsen

Published by* Foundation for Strategic Research*, a (military and defense-related) Think Tank founded by Pierre Joxe, a former french defense minister:


full article:
*Thinking Twice about Iran’s Missile Trends: The Threat is Real but Different than Predicted.pdf*

*Abstract*
Iran’s recent strike, targeting ISIS positions in Deir ez-Zur, Syria, reveals the sophisticated nature of Tehran’s solid-fueled missile systems. It shows that the threat is real, yet different from what has been generally estimated by the Western strategic community. Traditional assessments regarding Iran’s missile capabilities have been mostly focusing on longer-range systems, tending to neglect shorter range assets. On the other hand, this report analyzes that Iran’s solid-fueled short-range missiles and rockets, which were primarily designed for actual operational use, rather than building deterrence, are now significantly improving in range and accuracy. Such a breakthrough would provide the Revolutionary Guards with conventional deep and precision strike capabilities not only on the battlefield but also in the theater. Furthermore, Iran’s burgeoning capabilities are seriously challenging the Gulf’s existing missile defense architecture. Under these circumstances, the military strategic balance in the region should be revisited.

*Introduction*
On June 18, 2017, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps launched surface-to-surface missiles from Kordestan and Kermanshah provinces, west of Iran, targeting ISIS positions in Deir ez-Zur, eastern Syria.1 Iranian sources reported a religiously symbolic code name for the operation, Laylat al Qadr.2 Top figures of the Iranian military and security establishment welcomed the missile attack. The Revolutionary Guards’ spokesperson, General Ramezan Sharif said that the strike was “only a tiny example of Iran’s punitive power”.3 More importantly, General Sharif hinted at the possibilities of more missile strikes as ‘crushing responses’.4 The Iranian Armed Forces Chief of Staff, General Mohammad Bagheri claimed that Iran was one of the biggest missile powers of the world.5 Missiles have a key role even in domestic political debates in Iran. Recently, during a rhetorical exchange with President Rouhani, the Revolutionary Guards did not refrain from portraying themselves a power not only with guns but also with missiles.6 Amidst tension in the Middle East, the missile strike has both political and military importance. It came after terrorist attacks in Tehran, and military escalation between the US and the Assad regime in Syria. Even more importantly, it is revealing the trajectory of Iranian ballistic missile modernization and evolution. Thus, it offers a real insight into the future missile threat landscape in the region.


*The Flightpath Question*
Although there are some alternative explanations, most open-source evidence suggests that the Iranians’ missile of choice was the Zolfiqar, a solid-propellant Fateh-line derivative. Some Israeli press sources reported that a mix of Zolfiqar and Qiam – a Scud C derivative –, and even Shahab-3 missiles may have been used,7 although the latter would be highly unlikely. Israeli press sources, most probably the closest monitor of Iran’s missile proliferation, told that the missiles, which hit Deir ez-Zur, flew around 800 km over the Iraqi airspace to strike ISIS targets in the city. According to the referenced sources, it was Tehran’s first operational use of medium-range ballistic missiles since the Iran-Iraq war,8 although the suggested range falls under the short-range category as it is below the widely-accepted threshold of +1,000km for medium range ballistic missiles. Nevertheless, Iranian sources suggested a shorter flight path of some 650 km from launch positions located in the west of the country.9 Tasnim news agency, an Iranian outlet with the Revolutionary Guards connections, reported that the missile strike was coordinated with the Baathist regime of Syria.10 In fact, this was an operational necessity not only because the Zolfiqar missiles were fired into the Syrian airspace through the Iraqi border, but also due to Assad’s forces’ (mostly besieged) presence in Deir ez-Zour.11 Despite the Iranian sources’ claims indicating that 360 ISIS terrorists were killed12 seem pretty much exaggerated, both the presence of an Iranian drone over the target area for battle damage assessment and coordination with the Syrian regime forces show a fairly professional planning of the mission. Notably, following the missile strike, Iranian outlets reported the Assad regime’s follow-up offensive in Deir ez-Zur province and adjacent areas.13 Furthermore, the information operations aspect of the missile strike also reflects coordination between the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the Syrian Baathist regime. In this respect, amidst the discussions about the operation’s success, pro-regime social media accounts shared videos of Iranian drone footage showing four missiles out of six hitting their targets.14


*Harbingers of Iran’s Burgeoning Precision Strike Capabilities?*
Displayed by Iran in September 2016, the Zolfiqar missile is one of the numerous derivatives of the Fateh-110, a 610 mm heavy guided-rocket that has been in production since the beginning of the 2000s. Iran has invested a lot in this class, extending its range and increasing its accuracy. Latest versions of the Fateh-110 have a range of around 200 to 300 km delivering a payload of some 500 kg.15 In 2015, a new version named Fateh–313, which has an extended range of 500km, was unveiled. Analysts estimated that the improvements in range probably resulted from lighter frame, smaller payload, and better flight characteristics.16 In line with the modernization uptrend in the Fateh line, a new member, the Zolfiqar missile followed the Fateh–313 within a year. When it was first displayed, analysts concluded that the Zolfiqar missile was probably an improved Fateh–313 with sub munitions warhead.17 In fact, according to IHS Jane’s’ reporting, the Iranian press sources’ misuse of the multiple re-entry vehicles (MRV) term is the most significant open source intel that suggested a sub-munitions warhead for the Zolfiqar line.18 The biggest unknown about the Zolfiqar missile is the range–payload equation. Back in 2016, initial estimates about the missile concluded that it was unlikely to have a 500km range (also either 600 km or 800 consistently) with a 500kg sub-munitions payload.19 Yet, the Iranians claimed the missile’s range some 700 km since its entry into service.20 In fact, the picture might be more complicated. Iranian sources’ reporting for the Zulfiqar missile, especially its 700 km range, has raised eyebrows. Firstly, beyond 500 km of range, a single-stage ballistic missile with non-separable warhead normally tends to be unstable, specifically during the reentry phase. Since Fateh-110 and their derivatives are designed for purely conventional missions –unlike the Scud-derivatives Shahab 1, 2, and 321– accuracy is of utmost importance for operational effectiveness. So, to increase the range of the missile, one might expect the Iranian scientists opting for equipping the Zolfiqar with separable warheads, optimizing the missiles for longer range ballistic trajectories. In fact, Iran has been developing maneuvering warheads for the Shahab-3 derivatives, such as the Emad missile.22 However, the existence of a separable warhead on Fateh family of missiles is not confirmed, at least through open-source intelligence. An alternative for a separable warhead is to prefer a quasi-ballistic trajectory. The advantage of this trajectory is to maintain the missile within the atmosphere during a longer part of its flight, enabling its guidance throughout the most of its trajectory. A quasi ballistic missile can conduct evasive maneuvers and achieve better accuracy by using GPS data for re-calculating and correcting the flight. Furthermore, slower homing speed of the missile in the final phase facilitates the use of terminal guidance technologies. Typically, and contrary to more traditional old generation short range ballistic missiles, modern heavy guided-rockets are specifically conceived for this kind of trajectory. Current versions of Fateh-110 (and consequently of Zolfiqar in all likelihood) are described as quasi-ballistic systems. But in this regard, considering the Zolfiqar case, increasing the range up to 700 km would probably require a major modification to give the missile a better lift-to-drag ratio. Besides, such a modification would necessitate intensive testing, and possibly, improved propulsion. Although this possibility raises particular concerns about Iran’s level of technology and know-how, the Zolfiqar missile’s modifications are still unknown. Alternatively, as explained below, the Zolfiqar missile might have a more limited range and may be considered as another derivative of the Fateh line, not a brand new capability. But even so, the technological trends behind the Zolfiqar development would still deserve utmost attention. Indeed, they will inevitably transform the very nature of the threat on the battlefield and in the theater.

*A Mysterious Missile?*
The above mentioned probability analysis of the Deir ez-Zur strike does not necessarily mean that a Fateh line derivative (Fateh-313 or a Zolfiqar) was not used since the distance between Iran’s Kermanshah province (border areas) and Deir ez-Zur is less than 550 km. In case the missiles were launched from the Kordestan province, the flight path can be reduced to less than 500 km. Therefore, following the assumption that Zulfiqar missiles were indeed used, the Deir ez-Zur strike does not point to Iran having managed to extend the range of its Fateh line well beyond 500 km. After all, the precise location of the missile launch is not known, at least publicly. At this point, the Israeli outlets, reporting the strike range around 800 km, can be dismissed if the missile is considered to be a known Fateh derivative. Otherwise, in an 800 km flight path scenario, the missile could be either a drastically improved, as yet unseen variant, or a Qiam missile, a liquid-fueled short-range ballistic missile derivative of the Scud-D with a triconic warhead and some 650kg payload.23 However, the accuracy of the Qiam is probably much lower than that of the Zolfiqar, leading to conclude that Qiam missiles were probably not used in such a strike. Because, for Operation Laylat al-Qadr, accuracy was the most important parameter which made the Zolfiqar missile the weapon of choice. Further questions revolving around the range of Zolfiqar missiles are also notable. Extending the range of the known Fateh-110 derivatives more than 130%, especially if the payload is not significantly reduced, would necessitate the intensive use of light materials, as well as drastic improvements in the propellant. Probably, current variants of the Fateh line use composite propellant, which already marks a significant evolution from the early versions introduced in the early 2000s. Those were believed to be propelled by double -based propellant.24 The continuing extension of the Fateh’s range, assuming that the Zolfiqar missile is the peak point of the line – even at lesser ranges than expected – may prove that Iran is now able to upgrade the efficiency of its composite propellant through the growing qualification of its engineers and sophistication of its industry. 


*Assessing the Trajectory*
While it is not certainly confirmed that the Zolfiqar is a quasi-ballistic missile with some 600 – 700km range, still, this probability cannot be fully disregarded. The main advantage of a quasi-ballistic trajectory is to enable maneuvering of the missile, increasing its accuracy, and also deceiving missile defenses that are optimized for countering ballistic missile threats. This trend has already been followed by several missile powers. In this segment, Russia, with its SS-26 Iskander,25 is clearly leading the way. India, with the Shaurya missile, is currently exploring this technology. All these systems can also engage in terminal maneuvers when closing to their targets. Therefore, the conception of similar systems by Iran, using the Fateh line, should be taken into consideration. Iran is confronted with massive missile defense deployments by its regional competitors and lacks high-end inertial navigation technology. It is thus unable to significantly reduce the inaccuracy of its ballistic missile arsenal, even at shorter ranges. Hence, Iranian defense planners have opted for initiating research activities that focus on maneuvering technologies both for long range (i.e. the Emad missile with a -maneuverable re-entry vehicle)26 and short range systems (i.e. the Fateh line, with quasi ballistic trajectories or terminal maneuvers). While most of the studies analyzing Iranian missile trends tend to focus on longer range ballistic trajectories and separable, maneuvering warheads, Iran’s shorter range quasi-ballistic guided-rockets and missiles pose a real threat especially in geographically smaller theaters of the Middle East. Moreover, these systems’ several advantages over traditional missile defenses broadens Tehran’s military options.


*What Iran Can Learn from the Deir ez-Zur Strike?*
Without a doubt, the strike on Deir ez-Zur will provide Tehran with important lessons learned. Indeed, it may bolster Iran’s strategic operations, confirming that long-range conventional strikes are technically feasible with existing technology. Using maneuverable systems more frequently for such operations, as well as increasing the range of these systems, would pave the ground for breakthroughs in Iranian offensive missile options. At this point, in light of the discussions hitherto, a key question should be answered: did the Iranian (Zolfiqar) missiles manage to precisely hit their targets? To have a clear idea about the actual outcomes of the Zolfiqar missiles launch, we need a reliable battle damage assessment of the target set, which would primarily depend on imagery intelligence (IMINT). So far, the only tangible piece of evidence available is a video footage, probably obtained by an Iranian drone loitering over the target area.27 Therefore, it remains to be seen how Western and Israeli intelligence agencies will analyze the evidence, and of course, if their analyses will be publicly available. In this regard, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Gadi Eisenkot belittled the strike, indicating that the operational achievement was much smaller than Iranian sources reported.28 On the other hand, so far, there has been no alternative visual evidence provided by parties likely to identify the Iranian missile launch as a possible threat, such as Saudi Arabia, Israel, or the US. Such a move could have rendered Iran’s political signaling and muscle-flexing efforts abortive. Thus, unless an alternative battle damage assessment is presented with IMINT evidence, we can assume that most of the Zolfiqar missiles indeed struck the ISIS targets in Deir ez-Zur. So far, video uploads of the drone footage of the strike already suggests that four of the launched missiles scored hits.

*Political – Military Assessment: Iran Challenging the Regional Missile Defense Architecture*
Broadly speaking, Iran is developing a capacity that would allow it to intervene in its neighborhood through deep strike and precision strike capabilities. Iranian sources highlighted four key points about the missile strike: firstly, it was carried out by the Revolutionary Guards; secondly, although the strike targeted ‘Takfiri terror outfits’ in Syria, it should also send a message to Saudi Arabia regarding the US’ recent multi -billion dollars arms sales to Riyadh, thirdly, it was ‘medium-range ballistic missiles’ that were used in the mission,30 and finally, the Deir ez-Zur case tangibly showed Iran’s deterrence capacity.31 In fact, given the above mentioned official explanations, it is argued that the Iranians have been also pursuing political signaling objectives amidst mounting regional fluctuations in the Middle East. In other words, Tehran, specifically the Revolutionary Guards, have conducted their brand of ‘missile diplomacy’ through the Deir ez-Zur strike. For instance, Iran’s Foreign Minister Javad Zarif celebrated the operation by tweeting “Iran's missile capability protects its citizens in lawful self-defense & advances common global fight to eradicate ISIS & extremist terror”.32 Supreme Leader Khamenei’s rhetoric was more defiant, posting “know that they can never bring us down, but that we will bring them down” with a Deir ezZur hashtag.33 By all means, such a course of action seems ‘inspired’ from Russia’s Kalibr cruise missile launches – and show of force – from the Mediterranean and the Caspian in the course of the Syrian civil war. In parallel, the strike is of critical importance for estimating Iran’s current and prospective offensive capabilities. Simply put, the trends in Zulfiqar missiles modernization would give Iran an adequate weapon for covering key US bases in the region, as well as the Saudi capital Riyadh.34 If the missiles were to be transferred to Iranian proxies, first and foremost the Lebanese Hezbollah, then Israel will have to face a grave national security threat. The transfer of early Fateh-110 variants to Syria, and presumably to Hezbollah, is already considered an existing challenge by the Israelis. Finally, the Deir ez-Zur strike could mark the need for revisiting the effectiveness of the missile defense architectures and related strategic thinking of the Gulf Arab nations, as well as the US. Although maneuverable missiles can be intercepted, current missile defense architectures deployed against Iranian missiles are not precisely adapted to the evolving characteristics of the threat itself and better fitted to engage Scud based ballistic missiles. In this respect, being lighter, more mobile, much more accurate, and cheaper than old Scud-based missiles, the Fateh line challenges the traditional missile defense paradigm in the Middle East. In case Iran opts for transferring the Fateh-line derivatives to the Houthies in Yemen, this risk may be operationally demonstrated.

*Conclusion*
All in all, the Syrian civil war offered a wartime testing laboratory for the regime’s Scuds, the Russians’ Kalibr cruise missiles, and recently, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards’ Zulfiqar ballistic missiles. The Iranian missile strike was a milestone in many aspects. Drastic sophistication of the Fateh family of missiles can be translated into a clear battlefield advantage for the Iranians at tactical and operational levels, especially when employed in salvo launches. Furthermore, the Fateh line, including Zolfiqar missiles at the highest-end, are road-mobile, have short launch-cycles, and might be produced in high quantities which confer additional tactical advantages. The modernization trends from the Zelzal rockets to Fateh-110, Fateh-313, and finally to Zulfiqar missiles hints at what might come next in Iran’s solid-fuel ballistic missile inventory. The expertise gained in solid-fuel designs could be partially translated into the development of more sophisticated and longer range solid-fuel missiles, such as Sejjil–2 type missiles with some 2,000km range and potentially more.

At this point, there are key questions that the Western strategic community should address:

-Which guidance, propellant, and missile design advances enabled the recent Zolfiqar developments?

-Was there key technology and know-how transfer to Iran that boosted its solid-fuel short-range missiles program recently? If not, to what extend Iran’s national R&D and industrial capabilities are able to sustain such missile programs?

-Is Iran able to develop such technologies alone, or mostly alone? If so, what kind of impacts are to be expected in terms of proliferation of shorter range systems in near future?

-In a broader sense, what would be the operational impacts of the above mentioned trends on Iran’s neighbors and their military modernization programs? In fact, without finding accurate answers to the above mentioned questions, considering Iran a merely proliferating state, which is unable to progress without foreign assistance, could be a dangerous mistake with high costs. More importantly, one should re-think the biggest question about the Iranian missile developments: what comes next?

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## Blue In Green

mohsen said:


> Published by* Foundation for Strategic Research*, a (military and defense-related) Think Tank founded by Pierre Joxe, a former french defense minister:
> 
> full article:
> *Thinking Twice about Iran’s Missile Trends: The Threat is Real but Different than Predicted.pdf*
> 
> *Abstract*
> Iran’s recent strike, targeting ISIS positions in Deir ez-Zur, Syria, reveals the sophisticated nature of Tehran’s solid-fueled missile systems. It shows that the threat is real, yet different from what has been generally estimated by the Western strategic community. Traditional assessments regarding Iran’s missile capabilities have been mostly focusing on longer-range systems, tending to neglect shorter range assets. On the other hand, this report analyzes that Iran’s solid-fueled short-range missiles and rockets, which were primarily designed for actual operational use, rather than building deterrence, are now significantly improving in range and accuracy. Such a breakthrough would provide the Revolutionary Guards with conventional deep and precision strike capabilities not only on the battlefield but also in the theater. Furthermore, Iran’s burgeoning capabilities are seriously challenging the Gulf’s existing missile defense architecture. Under these circumstances, the military strategic balance in the region should be revisited.
> 
> *Introduction*
> On June 18, 2017, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps launched surface-to-surface missiles from Kordestan and Kermanshah provinces, west of Iran, targeting ISIS positions in Deir ez-Zur, eastern Syria.1 Iranian sources reported a religiously symbolic code name for the operation, Laylat al Qadr.2 Top figures of the Iranian military and security establishment welcomed the missile attack. The Revolutionary Guards’ spokesperson, General Ramezan Sharif said that the strike was “only a tiny example of Iran’s punitive power”.3 More importantly, General Sharif hinted at the possibilities of more missile strikes as ‘crushing responses’.4 The Iranian Armed Forces Chief of Staff, General Mohammad Bagheri claimed that Iran was one of the biggest missile powers of the world.5 Missiles have a key role even in domestic political debates in Iran. Recently, during a rhetorical exchange with President Rouhani, the Revolutionary Guards did not refrain from portraying themselves a power not only with guns but also with missiles.6 Amidst tension in the Middle East, the missile strike has both political and military importance. It came after terrorist attacks in Tehran, and military escalation between the US and the Assad regime in Syria. Even more importantly, it is revealing the trajectory of Iranian ballistic missile modernization and evolution. Thus, it offers a real insight into the future missile threat landscape in the region.
> 
> 
> *The Flightpath Question*
> Although there are some alternative explanations, most open-source evidence suggests that the Iranians’ missile of choice was the Zolfiqar, a solid-propellant Fateh-line derivative. Some Israeli press sources reported that a mix of Zolfiqar and Qiam – a Scud C derivative –, and even Shahab-3 missiles may have been used,7 although the latter would be highly unlikely. Israeli press sources, most probably the closest monitor of Iran’s missile proliferation, told that the missiles, which hit Deir ez-Zur, flew around 800 km over the Iraqi airspace to strike ISIS targets in the city. According to the referenced sources, it was Tehran’s first operational use of medium-range ballistic missiles since the Iran-Iraq war,8 although the suggested range falls under the short-range category as it is below the widely-accepted threshold of +1,000km for medium range ballistic missiles. Nevertheless, Iranian sources suggested a shorter flight path of some 650 km from launch positions located in the west of the country.9 Tasnim news agency, an Iranian outlet with the Revolutionary Guards connections, reported that the missile strike was coordinated with the Baathist regime of Syria.10 In fact, this was an operational necessity not only because the Zolfiqar missiles were fired into the Syrian airspace through the Iraqi border, but also due to Assad’s forces’ (mostly besieged) presence in Deir ez-Zour.11 Despite the Iranian sources’ claims indicating that 360 ISIS terrorists were killed12 seem pretty much exaggerated, both the presence of an Iranian drone over the target area for battle damage assessment and coordination with the Syrian regime forces show a fairly professional planning of the mission. Notably, following the missile strike, Iranian outlets reported the Assad regime’s follow-up offensive in Deir ez-Zur province and adjacent areas.13 Furthermore, the information operations aspect of the missile strike also reflects coordination between the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the Syrian Baathist regime. In this respect, amidst the discussions about the operation’s success, pro-regime social media accounts shared videos of Iranian drone footage showing four missiles out of six hitting their targets.14
> 
> 
> *Harbingers of Iran’s Burgeoning Precision Strike Capabilities?*
> Displayed by Iran in September 2016, the Zolfiqar missile is one of the numerous derivatives of the Fateh-110, a 610 mm heavy guided-rocket that has been in production since the beginning of the 2000s. Iran has invested a lot in this class, extending its range and increasing its accuracy. Latest versions of the Fateh-110 have a range of around 200 to 300 km delivering a payload of some 500 kg.15 In 2015, a new version named Fateh–313, which has an extended range of 500km, was unveiled. Analysts estimated that the improvements in range probably resulted from lighter frame, smaller payload, and better flight characteristics.16 In line with the modernization uptrend in the Fateh line, a new member, the Zolfiqar missile followed the Fateh–313 within a year. When it was first displayed, analysts concluded that the Zolfiqar missile was probably an improved Fateh–313 with sub munitions warhead.17 In fact, according to IHS Jane’s’ reporting, the Iranian press sources’ misuse of the multiple re-entry vehicles (MRV) term is the most significant open source intel that suggested a sub-munitions warhead for the Zolfiqar line.18 The biggest unknown about the Zolfiqar missile is the range–payload equation. Back in 2016, initial estimates about the missile concluded that it was unlikely to have a 500km range (also either 600 km or 800 consistently) with a 500kg sub-munitions payload.19 Yet, the Iranians claimed the missile’s range some 700 km since its entry into service.20 In fact, the picture might be more complicated. Iranian sources’ reporting for the Zulfiqar missile, especially its 700 km range, has raised eyebrows. Firstly, beyond 500 km of range, a single-stage ballistic missile with non-separable warhead normally tends to be unstable, specifically during the reentry phase. Since Fateh-110 and their derivatives are designed for purely conventional missions –unlike the Scud-derivatives Shahab 1, 2, and 321– accuracy is of utmost importance for operational effectiveness. So, to increase the range of the missile, one might expect the Iranian scientists opting for equipping the Zolfiqar with separable warheads, optimizing the missiles for longer range ballistic trajectories. In fact, Iran has been developing maneuvering warheads for the Shahab-3 derivatives, such as the Emad missile.22 However, the existence of a separable warhead on Fateh family of missiles is not confirmed, at least through open-source intelligence. An alternative for a separable warhead is to prefer a quasi-ballistic trajectory. The advantage of this trajectory is to maintain the missile within the atmosphere during a longer part of its flight, enabling its guidance throughout the most of its trajectory. A quasi ballistic missile can conduct evasive maneuvers and achieve better accuracy by using GPS data for re-calculating and correcting the flight. Furthermore, slower homing speed of the missile in the final phase facilitates the use of terminal guidance technologies. Typically, and contrary to more traditional old generation short range ballistic missiles, modern heavy guided-rockets are specifically conceived for this kind of trajectory. Current versions of Fateh-110 (and consequently of Zolfiqar in all likelihood) are described as quasi-ballistic systems. But in this regard, considering the Zolfiqar case, increasing the range up to 700 km would probably require a major modification to give the missile a better lift-to-drag ratio. Besides, such a modification would necessitate intensive testing, and possibly, improved propulsion. Although this possibility raises particular concerns about Iran’s level of technology and know-how, the Zolfiqar missile’s modifications are still unknown. Alternatively, as explained below, the Zolfiqar missile might have a more limited range and may be considered as another derivative of the Fateh line, not a brand new capability. But even so, the technological trends behind the Zolfiqar development would still deserve utmost attention. Indeed, they will inevitably transform the very nature of the threat on the battlefield and in the theater.
> 
> *A Mysterious Missile?*
> The above mentioned probability analysis of the Deir ez-Zur strike does not necessarily mean that a Fateh line derivative (Fateh-313 or a Zolfiqar) was not used since the distance between Iran’s Kermanshah province (border areas) and Deir ez-Zur is less than 550 km. In case the missiles were launched from the Kordestan province, the flight path can be reduced to less than 500 km. Therefore, following the assumption that Zulfiqar missiles were indeed used, the Deir ez-Zur strike does not point to Iran having managed to extend the range of its Fateh line well beyond 500 km. After all, the precise location of the missile launch is not known, at least publicly. At this point, the Israeli outlets, reporting the strike range around 800 km, can be dismissed if the missile is considered to be a known Fateh derivative. Otherwise, in an 800 km flight path scenario, the missile could be either a drastically improved, as yet unseen variant, or a Qiam missile, a liquid-fueled short-range ballistic missile derivative of the Scud-D with a triconic warhead and some 650kg payload.23 However, the accuracy of the Qiam is probably much lower than that of the Zolfiqar, leading to conclude that Qiam missiles were probably not used in such a strike. Because, for Operation Laylat al-Qadr, accuracy was the most important parameter which made the Zolfiqar missile the weapon of choice. Further questions revolving around the range of Zolfiqar missiles are also notable. Extending the range of the known Fateh-110 derivatives more than 130%, especially if the payload is not significantly reduced, would necessitate the intensive use of light materials, as well as drastic improvements in the propellant. Probably, current variants of the Fateh line use composite propellant, which already marks a significant evolution from the early versions introduced in the early 2000s. Those were believed to be propelled by double -based propellant.24 The continuing extension of the Fateh’s range, assuming that the Zolfiqar missile is the peak point of the line – even at lesser ranges than expected – may prove that Iran is now able to upgrade the efficiency of its composite propellant through the growing qualification of its engineers and sophistication of its industry.
> 
> 
> *Assessing the Trajectory*
> While it is not certainly confirmed that the Zolfiqar is a quasi-ballistic missile with some 600 – 700km range, still, this probability cannot be fully disregarded. The main advantage of a quasi-ballistic trajectory is to enable maneuvering of the missile, increasing its accuracy, and also deceiving missile defenses that are optimized for countering ballistic missile threats. This trend has already been followed by several missile powers. In this segment, Russia, with its SS-26 Iskander,25 is clearly leading the way. India, with the Shaurya missile, is currently exploring this technology. All these systems can also engage in terminal maneuvers when closing to their targets. Therefore, the conception of similar systems by Iran, using the Fateh line, should be taken into consideration. Iran is confronted with massive missile defense deployments by its regional competitors and lacks high-end inertial navigation technology. It is thus unable to significantly reduce the inaccuracy of its ballistic missile arsenal, even at shorter ranges. Hence, Iranian defense planners have opted for initiating research activities that focus on maneuvering technologies both for long range (i.e. the Emad missile with a -maneuverable re-entry vehicle)26 and short range systems (i.e. the Fateh line, with quasi ballistic trajectories or terminal maneuvers). While most of the studies analyzing Iranian missile trends tend to focus on longer range ballistic trajectories and separable, maneuvering warheads, Iran’s shorter range quasi-ballistic guided-rockets and missiles pose a real threat especially in geographically smaller theaters of the Middle East. Moreover, these systems’ several advantages over traditional missile defenses broadens Tehran’s military options.
> 
> 
> *What Iran Can Learn from the Deir ez-Zur Strike?*
> Without a doubt, the strike on Deir ez-Zur will provide Tehran with important lessons learned. Indeed, it may bolster Iran’s strategic operations, confirming that long-range conventional strikes are technically feasible with existing technology. Using maneuverable systems more frequently for such operations, as well as increasing the range of these systems, would pave the ground for breakthroughs in Iranian offensive missile options. At this point, in light of the discussions hitherto, a key question should be answered: did the Iranian (Zolfiqar) missiles manage to precisely hit their targets? To have a clear idea about the actual outcomes of the Zolfiqar missiles launch, we need a reliable battle damage assessment of the target set, which would primarily depend on imagery intelligence (IMINT). So far, the only tangible piece of evidence available is a video footage, probably obtained by an Iranian drone loitering over the target area.27 Therefore, it remains to be seen how Western and Israeli intelligence agencies will analyze the evidence, and of course, if their analyses will be publicly available. In this regard, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Gadi Eisenkot belittled the strike, indicating that the operational achievement was much smaller than Iranian sources reported.28 On the other hand, so far, there has been no alternative visual evidence provided by parties likely to identify the Iranian missile launch as a possible threat, such as Saudi Arabia, Israel, or the US. Such a move could have rendered Iran’s political signaling and muscle-flexing efforts abortive. Thus, unless an alternative battle damage assessment is presented with IMINT evidence, we can assume that most of the Zolfiqar missiles indeed struck the ISIS targets in Deir ez-Zur. So far, video uploads of the drone footage of the strike already suggests that four of the launched missiles scored hits.
> 
> *Political – Military Assessment: Iran Challenging the Regional Missile Defense Architecture*
> Broadly speaking, Iran is developing a capacity that would allow it to intervene in its neighborhood through deep strike and precision strike capabilities. Iranian sources highlighted four key points about the missile strike: firstly, it was carried out by the Revolutionary Guards; secondly, although the strike targeted ‘Takfiri terror outfits’ in Syria, it should also send a message to Saudi Arabia regarding the US’ recent multi -billion dollars arms sales to Riyadh, thirdly, it was ‘medium-range ballistic missiles’ that were used in the mission,30 and finally, the Deir ez-Zur case tangibly showed Iran’s deterrence capacity.31 In fact, given the above mentioned official explanations, it is argued that the Iranians have been also pursuing political signaling objectives amidst mounting regional fluctuations in the Middle East. In other words, Tehran, specifically the Revolutionary Guards, have conducted their brand of ‘missile diplomacy’ through the Deir ez-Zur strike. For instance, Iran’s Foreign Minister Javad Zarif celebrated the operation by tweeting “Iran's missile capability protects its citizens in lawful self-defense & advances common global fight to eradicate ISIS & extremist terror”.32 Supreme Leader Khamenei’s rhetoric was more defiant, posting “know that they can never bring us down, but that we will bring them down” with a Deir ezZur hashtag.33 By all means, such a course of action seems ‘inspired’ from Russia’s Kalibr cruise missile launches – and show of force – from the Mediterranean and the Caspian in the course of the Syrian civil war. In parallel, the strike is of critical importance for estimating Iran’s current and prospective offensive capabilities. Simply put, the trends in Zulfiqar missiles modernization would give Iran an adequate weapon for covering key US bases in the region, as well as the Saudi capital Riyadh.34 If the missiles were to be transferred to Iranian proxies, first and foremost the Lebanese Hezbollah, then Israel will have to face a grave national security threat. The transfer of early Fateh-110 variants to Syria, and presumably to Hezbollah, is already considered an existing challenge by the Israelis. Finally, the Deir ez-Zur strike could mark the need for revisiting the effectiveness of the missile defense architectures and related strategic thinking of the Gulf Arab nations, as well as the US. Although maneuverable missiles can be intercepted, current missile defense architectures deployed against Iranian missiles are not precisely adapted to the evolving characteristics of the threat itself and better fitted to engage Scud based ballistic missiles. In this respect, being lighter, more mobile, much more accurate, and cheaper than old Scud-based missiles, the Fateh line challenges the traditional missile defense paradigm in the Middle East. In case Iran opts for transferring the Fateh-line derivatives to the Houthies in Yemen, this risk may be operationally demonstrated.
> 
> *Conclusion*
> All in all, the Syrian civil war offered a wartime testing laboratory for the regime’s Scuds, the Russians’ Kalibr cruise missiles, and recently, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards’ Zulfiqar ballistic missiles. The Iranian missile strike was a milestone in many aspects. Drastic sophistication of the Fateh family of missiles can be translated into a clear battlefield advantage for the Iranians at tactical and operational levels, especially when employed in salvo launches. Furthermore, the Fateh line, including Zolfiqar missiles at the highest-end, are road-mobile, have short launch-cycles, and might be produced in high quantities which confer additional tactical advantages. The modernization trends from the Zelzal rockets to Fateh-110, Fateh-313, and finally to Zulfiqar missiles hints at what might come next in Iran’s solid-fuel ballistic missile inventory. The expertise gained in solid-fuel designs could be partially translated into the development of more sophisticated and longer range solid-fuel missiles, such as Sejjil–2 type missiles with some 2,000km range and potentially more.
> 
> At this point, there are key questions that the Western strategic community should address:
> 
> -Which guidance, propellant, and missile design advances enabled the recent Zolfiqar developments?
> 
> -Was there key technology and know-how transfer to Iran that boosted its solid-fuel short-range missiles program recently? If not, to what extend Iran’s national R&D and industrial capabilities are able to sustain such missile programs?
> 
> -Is Iran able to develop such technologies alone, or mostly alone? If so, what kind of impacts are to be expected in terms of proliferation of shorter range systems in near future?
> 
> -In a broader sense, what would be the operational impacts of the above mentioned trends on Iran’s neighbors and their military modernization programs? In fact, without finding accurate answers to the above mentioned questions, considering Iran a merely proliferating state, which is unable to progress without foreign assistance, could be a dangerous mistake with high costs. More importantly, one should re-think the biggest question about the Iranian missile developments: what comes next?



Now this is what you call a proper assessment.

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## Arminkh

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Now this is what you call a proper assessment.


Where is @WordsMatter ?

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## Blue In Green

Arminkh said:


> Where is @WordsMatter ?



Lol, idk. He should probably give this article a good read over since it's most likely the best objective view of the missile strike we will ever get coming from a Western source.

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## WordsMatter

Arminkh said:


> Where is @WordsMatter ?


Here... Just read the article. Seems that IRI has done some good engineering. Good for them. I am sure within the next few years they will do even better.

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## 925boy

mohsen said:


> به گزارش رجانیوز،ساعاتی پس از آنکه حسن روحانی در چرخشی 180 درجه ای نسبت به سخنان قبلی خود درباره «موشک»، گفت: «موشک را کی درست کرد؟ سازنده این موشک دولت و وزارت دفاع است و پول آن را بخش اقتصادی کشور تامین می‌کند.» سعید جلیلی بدون نام آوردن از روحانی، در کانال تلگرام خود نوشت:
> 
> «بعضی ها بلافاصله وقتی که موفقیتی به دست می‌آید، ظاهر می شوند! همین‌هایی که از زیر بار مسؤولیت شانه خالی می‌کنند: « الَّذينَ يَتَرَبَّصُونَ بِکُمْ فَإِنْ کانَ لَکُمْ فَتْحٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ قالُوا أَ لَمْ نَکُنْ مَعَکُمْ ». تعبیر قرآن است که می‌گوید اینها نگاه می‌کنند و اگر دیدند موفقیتی حاصل شد و غنائمی به دست آمد، آن وقت می‌گویند ما که بودیم! کسانی دیگر هم هستند که ظاهراً با شما هستند: «و من الناس من يقول آمنا بالله». اما اگر مشکلاتی پیش بیاید « فَإِذَا أُوذِيَ فِي اللَّهِ». یک دفعه می‌گویند چه شد؟ « جَعَلَ فِتْنَةَ النَّاسِ كَعَذَابِ اللَّهِ». می‌گویند چرا این طور شد؟ چرا این مشکلات پیش آمد؟ چقدر هزینه بدهیم؟ اما اگر از آن طرف پیروزی کسب شود، «جاءَ نَصْرٌ مِنْ رَبِّکَ لَیَقُولُنَّ إِنَّا کُنَّا مَعَکُمْ». می‌گویند ما که از اول با شما بودیم! اصلاً ما هم بودیم.»
> 
> 
> 
> it depends!
> whether destroying tens of billions of our nuclear infrastructures and postponing our advancement for decades in return of nothing is a treason or not!
> whether shutting down our space program in return of nothing is a treason or not!
> whether undermining security forces in the region like middle east is a treason or not.
> whether unprecedented imports / shutting down of domestic factories / fabricating numbers to fool people is a treason or not.
> whether appointing corrupted peoples (Crescent deal) as our oil minister is a treason or not.
> whether supporting of MKO terrorists which have killed 17000 Iranian is a treason or not.
> 
> 
> My answer is :without doubt.


Mr.Mohsen, please calm down. First of all, as a long term secretary of Iran's NSC, Rouhani understands(generally)Iran's security issues and needs, so while i can agree he hasnt been extra "supportive" of aggressive, IRGC backed ME security policy, he is not against Iran being militarily strong or capable of effective of deterrence. Also, you have to understand, that Rouhani helped get Iran out of a cornered position. The UN and US sanctions were biting VERY hard, China, Russia and India were not doing enough to give Iran considerable relief, the economy couldnt get any growth, internal support for the Iranian govt from all this was not that good(even though it wasnt very bad either) so Rouhani's govt had to help Iran get out of a horrible, boxed in situation. He might have "shut down" the space program because we all know space program also doubles as ballistic/ICBM missile research/experimentation(and besides, with the toll of sanctions, Iran might have had to "reprioritize" other aspects of its economy). Domestic factories being shut? well that wasnt Rouhani's fault, that was the result of years of harsh economic environment that wasnt helped by international sanctions(and we all know the dollar is inevitable for international trade). If Iran rushed to the nuclear weapon, Iran would probably be a mini North Korea now. Iran still possesses strong conventional military capabilities that deters many countries so Iran didnt lose all. Lets be real Mohsen, in this day and age, if your economy is sanctioned up and you dont do trade with the world, your country is dying, slowly.Lastly, Rouhani has helped Iran's image alot, and we all know image means alot. Better image mean better leverage and outcomes and Iran needs that badly and has started getting that more now. Everybody was taking big advantage of Iran due to the sanctions so Rouhani's moves helped deleverage those manipulative countries(China and India).Its a new day, and Iran needs to do more engagements with the world out in the open, in public fora. Tbh, i even think Iran won because Iran gave up a potential, not a reality while the world/US gave Iran tons of cash and lots of access to the outside world. Iran still has the nuclear technology/bomb knowledge now and never built an actual nuclear weapon so what did Iran really give up? Who told you Iran stilll doesnt have any secret nuclear facilities running now?lol

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## yavar

*Iran Gen Bagheri: all needs to produce missiles are made domestically سرلشکر باقری توان موشکی*

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## Fafnir

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Now this is what you call a proper assessment.


Agreed,but its still a very grudging one tho`


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## yavar

*Iran Tehran Quds Day "Ghadr" and "Zulfiqar" missiles موشک های« قدر» و «ذوالفقار»در راهپمایی روز قدس*

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## mohsen

IRGC aerospace commander brigadier Hajizadeh sheds more light on the operation of targetting ISIS positions in Deir ez-Zur, Syria:







"60 targets were presented by IRGC Qods forces, to avoid civilian casualties, eventually 6 missiles were launched at 3 targets.

there were civilians around some targets so we sent a drone from hundred kilometers away to observe the situation.
during 12 minutes, 6 missiles were fired, 2 missiles were still on the launchers when the news published.

when the first missile hit it's target, we were watching it on the monitor in Tehran (in real time), I was surprised to see 3 spots caught fire after one impact, the missile hit the ISIS underground base, the fire rose from 3 tunnel entrances.

View attachment 412893







The second missile hit their fuel depot, fuel leaked to their tunnels and further extended the fire."

in case somebody wants to watch the footage again:
http://www.aparat.com/v/Xf0wr
http://www.aparat.com/v/S8mgI

* سردار حاجی‌زاده مطرح کرد *
*کشته شدن داعشی چینی در حمله موشکی سپاه/چند سال پیش هم علیه تکفیریها عملیات موشکی کردیم/متن پیام رهبری برای حمله موشکی به داعش*

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## Blue In Green

mohsen said:


> IRGC aerospace commander brigadier Hajizadeh sheds more light on the operation of targetting ISIS positions in Deir ez-Zur, Syria:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "60 targets were presented by IRGC Qods forces, to avoid civilian casualties, eventually 6 missiles were launched at 3 targets.
> 
> there were civilians around some targets so we sent a drone from hundred kilometers away to observe the situation.
> during 12 minutes, 6 missiles were fired, 2 missiles were still on the launchers when the news published.
> 
> when the first missile hit it's target, we were watching it on the monitor in Tehran (in real time), I was surprised to see 3 spots caught fire after one impact, the missile hit the ISIS underground base, the fire raised from 3 tunnel entrances.
> 
> View attachment 412893
> 
> 
> View attachment 412896
> 
> 
> The second missile hit their fuel depot, fuel leaked to their tunnels and further extended the fire."
> 
> in case somebody wants to watch the footage again:
> http://www.aparat.com/v/Xf0wr
> http://www.aparat.com/v/S8mgI
> 
> * سردار حاجی‌زاده مطرح کرد *
> *کشته شدن داعشی چینی در حمله موشکی سپاه/چند سال پیش هم علیه تکفیریها عملیات موشکی کردیم/متن پیام رهبری برای حمله موشکی به داعش*



YES I GOT IT RIGHT, THE FIRE COMING FROM THE BUILDING WAS FROM AN UNDERGROUND BUNKER!!!!!

Winning combo here gentleman, drones and stand off missiles. Hell yeah....!!!!

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## ashool

qaem m missile

iranian anti heli and drone missile

range 500 - 6000 m

The weight of the warhead is 1.7 kilograms and has 500 rubles

wight 19.5 kg
speed 240- 310 m/s

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## scimitar19

BlueInGreen2 said:


> YES I GOT IT RIGHT, THE FIRE COMING FROM THE BUILDING WAS FROM AN UNDERGROUND BUNKER!!!!!
> 
> Winning combo here gentleman, drones and stand off missiles. Hell yeah....!!!!


Yes you were right about that underground bunker in that open field just bellow building that I thought was the target!


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## drmeson

From this strike in syria it is clear that BM/CM are useful to a limit with conventional warheads. Even with 30-50 m CEP which is good accurate for BM's, the damage vs cost is not in our favor. We dont have the airpower either to manage such long range strikes in future. 

Iran needs unconventional warheads, CBRN that is. CW warheads in particular can cause lots of damage and are easy to synthesize and maintain.


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## mse21

VEVAK said:


> Ean addad as khod sakhtegheest va motealegh be hoghooghe nirou ha e mosallah e na bodjeh Nezami Iran (Artesh, Sepah, Basij)
> 
> Doshtaneh Artesheh 10 Millioni beh heech dardi nemekhoreh agheh natooni onaro dorost mosallah koni!
> 
> Va agar bekhay har sarbozi ro ba saddeh tarreen tajheezat mosallah koni
> 1.AK-47 $1,000
> 2.Lebos (Az kollah ta kafsh), Zereh, tofang dasti, teer (ta'mir, taveez va shostoshoo e on be moddateh 1 sol) $500
> 3.Beseem va degar vassaeleh mokhaberati beh toor motevaset nafari $500
> 4.Haml o naghl sabook be toor motevaset bara har nafar va as arzoontareen no (Motor, Jeep Safir,...) nafari $3000
> 5.Infantry support weapons (poshteebani e nazdeek) (RPG, ATGM, Morter, Grenade) be toor motevaset nafari $1000
> 6.Hoghoogh, bemeh o ghaza be toor motevaset soli $4000 (yani faghat Mahi $333 USD)
> 
> ro kol kam e kam mesheh $10,000 ba vassaeli keh Takfiri ha ham daran
> halla agheh jang besheh va bekhay $10,000 ro 10 Million nafar kharj koni mesheh chand? mesheh $100 Billion USD!!!!
> Pass dar jang doshtaneh Artesheh 10 Millioni beshtar be zarrareh Iran e
> 
> Halla be jayeh $100 Billion agar Iran $20 Billion USD kharj sokhteh 40,000 moshak $500,000 Bellastic ya Cruise bokoneh va $5 Billion kharj paygahha, partobkonandegon moteharek va hoghoogh afradeh lazem bara negahdori va partob onha bokonad heech dollati joraateh hamlleh be Iran ro nakhahad dosht!


mikham rok harf bezanam bebakhshid
az dastam azordeh nashid
gharar nist ke artesh bist milioni hamash bejange! mage too jang hame arteshiooon mijangan???
man vaghaan motajjeb misham chera dar in kharab shode ke esmesh mamlekate hame chiz enghadr sathi bardasht mishe! agar gharar bood mesl shoma ajdad bozorgavaremoon fekr konan ke en keshvar kohan tarin mamlekate zende nabood!
artesh bist milioni mani kheli gostardee dare. sad albate manish in nist man doctor clash bigiram dastom ba cheshmi ke too ketab be fana rafte beram bejangam!
manish gostardeh tare. sad albate ke farmandehan ham in ro fahmidan ama doost aziz man be onvan baradar koochiket migam shoma garare farda mamlekat dari koni in hame hesab ketab kardi vaghtet hadar dadi bekhater in ke in sohbat ro bardasht dorost nadashti azash.
]
dar mored boodje
in mohem ni chi to matn boodje oomade( to internet hastesh) in moheme ke cheghad tamin etebar mishe
ke sarlashgar bagheri adam kami nist ke bekhad harf alaki bezane. too ghazieh moosak be deirozoor ham ishoon moshakhasan betarafane goft gharar nist sar partab mooshak be doshman ma baham dava konim!!!


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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> mikham rok harf bezanam bebakhshid
> az dastam azordeh nashid
> gharar nist ke artesh bist milioni hamash bejange! mage too jang hame arteshiooon mijangan???
> man vaghaan motajjeb misham chera dar in kharab shode ke esmesh mamlekate hame chiz enghadr sathi bardasht mishe! agar gharar bood mesl shoma ajdad bozorgavaremoon fekr konan ke en keshvar kohan tarin mamlekate zende nabood!
> artesh bist milioni mani kheli gostardee dare. sad albate manish in nist man doctor clash bigiram dastom ba cheshmi ke too ketab be fana rafte beram bejangam!
> manish gostardeh tare. sad albate ke farmandehan ham in ro fahmidan ama doost aziz man be onvan baradar koochiket migam shoma garare farda mamlekat dari koni in hame hesab ketab kardi vaghtet hadar dadi bekhater in ke in sohbat ro bardasht dorost nadashti azash.
> ]
> dar mored boodje
> in mohem ni chi to matn boodje oomade( to internet hastesh) in moheme ke cheghad tamin etebar mishe
> ke sarlashgar bagheri adam kami nist ke bekhad harf alaki bezane. too ghazieh moosak be deirozoor ham ishoon moshakhasan betarafane goft gharar nist sar partab mooshak be doshman ma baham dava konim!!!



Sol soleh 2017 AD na 500 B.C. va aghar bekhay beri to manneeesh aslan Iran Artesh e 80 millioni doreh cherra faghat 20 ta va balleh 2500 sol e peesh aggar 1 million adam sang ham partob mekardan boz beh yeh dardi mekhord vali emrooz ean khabara neest!

Zamaneh Saljooghian am hameen fekr a ro mekardan keh ma adam beshtar doreem o bok'kee neest hameh mejangeem bad chee shod? Moghool ha ba selahha va takteek ha e jaded omanadan o chee shod? to shab 20 ta asb o ateesh mezadan mefrestodan vasateh Ghabeeleh ha e Irani bad ashoob be pa meshood o....
Teer kamoon ha e bartaree ham doshtan keh ham koocheek tar boodan o ham ghodrateh beshtari dosht va ean keshvareh kohan sol ba yeki as bozorg tareeen artesh ha jahan ra dar on zaman dosht tekkeh parreh shod va as on rooz ta allan bazi Irani ha hanooz nafahmeedan keh Lashkareh bozorg bedooneh Tajheezat soodi nadareh keh heech zarrar ham doreh! Va Tajheezat va tackteekha ast keh jan ro taeen mekoneh na teedodeh afrod!

Va aghar masaleh tameen noon o ab e pass ba tooleedeh tajheezat barayeh on afrood kar dorost kon keh ham dollatet godratmantar va ham mellatet servatmand tar boshand la'keen aghar berry o beh 2 Million nafar(Artesh, Sepah, Basij,...) mahi $400 USD ($9.6 Billion USD) Hooghoog, Bemeh, bazneshasteghi va dighar emkanat bedi va khiyal khoni ba khodi khod ean ghodrati e keh metoneh jello lashkarreh moderni ro begeareh pass sakht dar eshtebohi!
Bedoneh Nirou havvai modern Iran bayad kam e kam soli $5 Billion USD kharj sokht Moshak Bellastic($2Billion), Moshak Cruise($2Billion) va pahpad ha($1Billion) bokonad ean yeh hagheeghateh va aghar dollati bahooneh dar avarad va ean pool ro sarf sokht ean tajheezat nakonad khak pak ean keshvareh kohan sol ra choon saljooghian dar khatar andokhteh! Makhsoosan dollati keh to 20 sol e gozashteh hatta 1 Jangandeh modern barayeh nirou e havvaiish nakhareedeh! Emrooz cheneen bi masouleeati faghat to keshvar ha e bi dar o paykar deedeh mesheh halla mikhan kohan sol boshan ya naboshan!


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## mse21

925boy said:


> and we all know the dollar is inevitable for international trade)


yes thats why i hate this deal !
they gave up the nuclear program (im not really interested in) but they forgot! or just did not try to took the dollar trade access and after signing that deal some times later they start begging for it!!!
this is the most effective sanction all we know.
and starting propaganda against every single person saying anything about this situation we are in! (like irgc or some other with very bad words which they are definitely some curse) because if just they confess they had mistake its likely to kill themselves politically.


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## mse21

VEVAK said:


> Sol soleh 2017 AD na 500 B.C. va aghar bekhay beri to manneeesh aslan Iran Artesh e 80 millioni doreh cherra faghat 20 ta va balleh 2500 sol e peesh aggar 1 million adam sang ham partob mekardan boz beh yeh dardi mekhord vali emrooz ean khabara neest!
> 
> Zamaneh Saljooghian am hameen fekr a ro mekardan keh ma adam beshtar doreem o bok'kee neest hameh mejangeem bad chee shod? Moghool ha ba selahha va takteek ha e jaded omanadan o chee shod? to shab 20 ta asb o ateesh mezadan mefrestodan vasateh Ghabeeleh ha e Irani bad ashoob be pa meshood o....
> Teer kamoon ha e bartaree ham doshtan keh ham koocheek tar boodan o ham ghodrateh beshtari dosht va ean keshvareh kohan sol ba yeki as bozorg tareeen artesh ha jahan ra dar on zaman dosht tekkeh parreh shod va as on rooz ta allan bazi Irani ha hanooz nafahmeedan keh Lashkareh bozorg bedooneh Tajheezat soodi nadareh keh heech zarrar ham doreh! Va Tajheezat va tackteekha ast keh jan ro taeen mekoneh na teedodeh afrod!
> 
> Va aghar masaleh tameen noon o ab e pass ba tooleedeh tajheezat barayeh on afrood kar dorost kon keh ham dollatet godratmantar va ham mellatet servatmand tar boshand la'keen aghar berry o beh 2 Million nafar(Artesh, Sepah, Basij,...) mahi $400 USD ($9.6 Billion USD) Hooghoog, Bemeh, bazneshasteghi va dighar emkanat bedi va khiyal khoni ba khodi khod ean ghodrati e keh metoneh jello lashkarreh moderni ro begeareh pass sakht dar eshtebohi!
> Bedoneh Nirou havvai modern Iran bayad kam e kam soli $5 Billion USD kharj sokht Moshak Bellastic($2Billion), Moshak Cruise($2Billion) va pahpad ha($1Billion) bokonad ean yeh hagheeghateh va aghar dollati bahooneh dar avarad va ean pool ro sarf sokht ean tajheezat nakonad khak pak ean keshvareh kohan sol ra choon saljooghian dar khatar andokhteh! Makhsoosan dollati keh to 20 sol e gozashteh hatta 1 Jangandeh modern barayeh nirou e havvaiish nakhareedeh! Emrooz cheneen bi masouleeati faghat to keshvar ha e bi dar o paykar deedeh mesheh halla mikhan kohan sol boshan ya naboshan!


hoda pedaret biamorze! hamooni ke man goftam migi
manam ke migam aslan artesh bist milioni oon chizi nist ke shoma bardashtkardi. manzoor chiz digast hame artesh ke piade nazam nist. vaghti jang shod hame arteshian hatta ooni ke kar eghtesadi mikone. manzoor pichide tar az een sohbatast. man khob nemidoonam sokhanrani haye emam goosh dadi ye na vali sade harf mizad mardom befhman dar avaz ketab hayee ham dare doood az kale adam boland mikonan (adam bisavadi nistam ghablan khodam moarefi kardam). in jomleh az hamoonast.
roo niroo havaee bahs nadaram hagh ba shomast manam az vaghti oomadam too in vadi hamash kaboos niroo havaee mibinam!!!!
albate ba argham dade shode mokhalefam gharar nist vaghti jangi vojood nadare een poola kharj beshe ke! ba 2 bilion mishe 1200 cruse dorost kard ke foghesh do sal in boodje niaz bashe ke oonam midoonim ke bishtar ghemat kharj felezat sookht a sarjangi mishe va baadan mishe electronicesh upgrade kard. yek sal ham tahghigh toseee. shod se sal. 2000 ta zolfaghar base (4000) 2000 ta ham fateh 313 (4000) ye gheimat gereftam ta hampooshani konan 1000 ham mooshak sejjil (6000) basghiash rocket ya mooshak arzoon bashe kafie. na inke harsal inghadr pool ke shoma gofti bedim jaye mooshak.
aslan mooshak bedoon tedad khariate va afrad nezami hame midoonan. yani agar pool dadi jaye tahghigh tose amma tedad nadasht yani bad hava. ina sookht jamedast. maye haram misazan anbar mikonan bi sookht baad 10 sal faght bazbini khastegi felez mishan. a mooshak jamed ham bad 10 sal sookhtesh avaz mikonan
khob hesab konim
ta inja shod 16000 ba baghie moooshak haye arzoon ke maslan beshan 9000 kollan mishe 25000! kollan kar 6 sal boodjast (ba pahpad) ke sad albate intoor nemisazan masalan too 12 sal inghadr kharj mikonan ke be baghie bakhsh ha ham pooool berese
badesh boodje mimoone bara rader o defa havaee.
dar mored niroo havaee
manam doost daram aslan pakfa dashte bashim hame doost daran ama vaghti nemifrooshan che konim? ma\ge mig 29 muldavi nabood ke amrica kharideshoon ke be dast iran naresan?
akhe vaghti emsal sang roo yakh kardan vazir arjmand dafa ro che kari az dasteshoon barmiad??
hich
faghat bayad ba amsal kosar o ... zare zare dobare charkh ro az no besazim. agarna mishod maham mesl hend az har gooshe doonya ye tike bekharim o baad behesh begim jangande melli!


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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> hoda pedaret biamorze! hamooni ke man goftam migi
> manam ke migam aslan artesh bist milioni oon chizi nist ke shoma bardashtkardi. manzoor chiz digast hame artesh ke piade nazam nist. vaghti jang shod hame arteshian hatta ooni ke kar eghtesadi mikone. manzoor pichide tar az een sohbatast. man khob nemidoonam sokhanrani haye emam goosh dadi ye na vali sade harf mizad mardom befhman dar avaz ketab hayee ham dare doood az kale adam boland mikonan (adam bisavadi nistam ghablan khodam moarefi kardam). in jomleh az hamoonast.
> roo niroo havaee bahs nadaram hagh ba shomast manam az vaghti oomadam too in vadi hamash kaboos niroo havaee mibinam!!!!
> albate ba argham dade shode mokhalefam gharar nist vaghti jangi vojood nadare een poola kharj beshe ke! ba 2 bilion mishe 1200 cruse dorost kard ke foghesh do sal in boodje niaz bashe ke oonam midoonim ke bishtar ghemat kharj felezat sookht a sarjangi mishe va baadan mishe electronicesh upgrade kard. yek sal ham tahghigh toseee. shod se sal. 2000 ta zolfaghar base (4000) 2000 ta ham fateh 313 (4000) ye gheimat gereftam ta hampooshani konan 1000 ham mooshak sejjil (6000) basghiash rocket ya mooshak arzoon bashe kafie. na inke harsal inghadr pool ke shoma gofti bedim jaye mooshak.
> aslan mooshak bedoon tedad khariate va afrad nezami hame midoonan. yani agar pool dadi jaye tahghigh tose amma tedad nadasht yani bad hava. ina sookht jamedast. maye haram misazan anbar mikonan bi sookht baad 10 sal faght bazbini khastegi felez mishan. a mooshak jamed ham bad 10 sal sookhtesh avaz mikonan
> khob hesab konim
> ta inja shod 16000 ba baghie moooshak haye arzoon ke maslan beshan 9000 kollan mishe 25000! kollan kar 6 sal boodjast (ba pahpad) ke sad albate intoor nemisazan masalan too 12 sal inghadr kharj mikonan ke be baghie bakhsh ha ham pooool berese
> badesh boodje mimoone bara rader o defa havaee.
> dar mored niroo havaee
> manam doost daram aslan pakfa dashte bashim hame doost daran ama vaghti nemifrooshan che konim? ma\ge mig 29 muldavi nabood ke amrica kharideshoon ke be dast iran naresan?
> akhe vaghti emsal sang roo yakh kardan vazir arjmand dafa ro che kari az dasteshoon barmiad??
> hich
> faghat bayad ba amsal kosar o ... zare zare dobare charkh ro az no besazim. agarna mishod maham mesl hend az har gooshe doonya ye tike bekharim o baad behesh begim jangande melli!



Eshtebah mikoni azeez

1.Barayeh Keshvari keh Nirou e Havvai Modern nadareh vaghti Jang besheh degheh deer shodeh vaghti nirou havvai nadari anborrat dar sar ta sar e keshvar bayad ghabl az jang poor boshan!

2.Balleh aghar gharrar bood har moshaki bedoneh moshkeli ba yek partob beh hadafesh bokhoreh va hadaf ra ba hamoon yek partob nabood koneh ean teedod kaffi bod
Zaman Jang Jahani Almon(Germany) 30,000 moshak V1 (avvaleen cruise e donya) dosht va nazdeek 10,000 ta faghat be Englees partob kard tazeh yeki az ghavitarreen nirou ha havvai jahan ro ham dosht va on jang o ham bokht tazeh on mogheh moshak zeddeh havvai vojod nadasht

Balleh aghah ~2000 ta moshak cruise (1991-2003) bara hamlleh America beh Iraq kaffi bood daleelesh doshtaneh Ghavitarren Nirou Havvai Jahan + 8 sol jang ba Iran bood 

Iran Cheneen Nirou e havvai heech vaght nakhahad dosht va lazem ham nadareh lakeen choon naft, Gaz va khaili cheez ha e degar darreem barayeh bozdorandegee sakht anbor haii poor az moshak va pahpad ghabl az har jangi va barayeh peeshgeary az har jangi elzameest

Beh toor mamool har dollateh agheli ba pool, vosaat va naft o gazi keh Iran dorreh bayad kam e kam va faghat o faghat barayeh deffa az khodesh bayad soli 12 Jangandeh modern + 2-3 havapayma poshteeboni (Ya haml o naghl, ya Air Refueling, ya AWACS, Search & Rescue, recon, Heavy bomber...) Beh novgoneh Nirou havvai ezafeh koneh va aghar nakoneh sahlengari kardeh! mesheh chand? Dar asl emrooz mesheh beeshtar az soli $3 Billion USD va ean kam e kamesheh onam barayeh dollati keh to 20 sol e peesh har sol jangandeh khareedeh
$3Billion USD mesheh Pool e Havapayma modern, Spare Parts, tasleehat, va ghereh 

Allan yeh telephon dasti emsol ba 5 sol peeshesh o nemetoni moghayeseh khoni degheh cheh bereseh be Jangandeh va tasleehatash 
Halla dollati keh beh har dalleeli natonesteh to 20 solleh gozashteh 1 Jangandeh ham bekhareh bayad az yeh jaii ean naghz ro jobron koneh va tanha rahesh sokhteh moshakeh va pahpadeh

Va aghar beh toor mamool kam e kam soli $3 Billion kharj Nirou Havai mikardi va $2 Billion kharj Moshak ha Bellastic, Cruise vs pahpadha hal bayad kolleh $5 Billion o kharj Bellastic, cruise va pahpadha bokoni makhsoosan keshvari keh 20 sol e jangandeh nakhareedeh va haddeh aghal on $$$ ha az keshvar kharej nemesheh

Va aghar Iran allan bekhad ean naghz 30 sollaroo jobran koneh bayad barayeh va ta 20 solleh ayyandeh soli $10 Billion USD Jangandeh va havapayma varedeh keshvar koneh tazzeh agheh bezzaran va ahan parreh ha ghadeemeeshon o beh ma nandozan


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## mse21

aziz man hamina ke goftam 5000 mooshak daghigh ba 1200 cruse va 9 B ham baraye mooshak gheir daghighesh goftam. ke khodesh kheili arzoon tare.
man tajjob mikonam harja har commenti in shekli didam harkas boode hey modam az naft o gaz migan. are darim ama vaghti nemitoonim befrooshim ya masalan jamiat ziadeh khob che khonim mage ma mesl ghatar masalan 1 melion hastim?! mohem nist cheghad darim mohem forooshe va jamiati ke gharare bahash sir konim.
koodooom az hamsayeh haye ma bombafkan sangin daran?? ke gheir az 3 keshvar aval bomb afkan sangin dare???
ba awacs movafegham
ettefaghan too niroo havaee soraat pishraft selah kamtare masalan amarram d chan sale oomade? f22 chan saleh? shoma middoni ke hazine tahghigh tose sakht ye jangande chand darmiad khob motmaennan az hazine ye telephon bishtare. soraat sakhtesham hamintor.
vaghti mooshak sakhti va estefade nakardi in mimoone ta chand sal momkene masalan bakhsh hayee azash upgrade beshe ke goftam bishtar hazinash sarjangee sookht hastan pas aya ma bish az 30000 mooshak balistic niaz darim?? ba darsad barkhord 50 darsad ke 6000 tash bayad mooshak haye daghigh 2000 cruse baghiash hadaf hastan amalan baraye khali kardan defa havaee.
inam ke goftid 10B FAGHAT havapeyma inam ziade. kheli ke beshe mishe 7B na 10B (hesab kardam ghablan) .onam faghat havapeyma! hamchin pooli aslan nadarim.
darkol ziad goftid gheymat mooshak va hazineh harsalash


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## PeeD

Anything using a airfield is too fragile for Irans current threat situation, as simple as that.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Anything using a airfield is too fragile for Irans current threat situation, as simple as that.



Yes when you haven't purchased or built modern fighters and Air Defense systems and added them to your fleet on a yearly bases for 30 years that would be the result!
And the Iran-Iraq war showed that it doesn't much matter how much more advanced your Air Force is because if you don't have the capability to fully maintain your fighters, build weapons for those Aircraft yourself & train your own pilots & maintenance crew then your nothing more than a client state and the result of the war solely depends on your masters

And at this point if Iran ever wants to rebuild it's Air Force again they need to 1st have a large enough precision guided missile stockpile that could by themselves be a deterrent that's why Iran for the next 10 years needs to mass produce a large enough stockpile that would act as a deterrent so you can eventually shift focus on your Air Force (~$20-$25 Billion on Ballistic Missiles, ~$20 Billion Cruise Missiles, ~$10 Billion on UAV & UCAV in a 10 year time span)

And only after you've built such a deterrent factor can you shift focus on either building your own Air Force OR co-producing one with another major power and many of the technology & resources (From man power to tools & equipment) that were being used to mass produce Cruise Missiles & UCAV can be transferred towards building your own fighter fleet 

An Air Defense system has to work in collusion with your Air Force they both complement each other and having one without the other looses it's effectiveness

Today it's a well known fact that F-22's, F-35's & US fighters in general are too reliant on their BVR capabilities and within ~40-50km modern none stealth Russian fighters have the upper hand due to their IRST, IR weapons & maneuverability but they can only take advantage of this if they can get within ~50km and that's where Air Defense systems come in. Russian fighters can go to silent mode radars off, approach at low altitudes, use decoy UAV's and rely on enemy location fed to them via early warning system (Air Defense) and that's how a superior IRST defeats an American stealth fighter...
At the same time if you don't have a fighter fleet equipped with IRST you have no chance of stopping a stealth fighter backed with decoy UAV's & cruise missiles getting within weapons range of your Air Defense systems that protect vital locations!

And these are just simple examples of how one compliments the other and how both lose their effectiveness if one is missing!

Now since Iran doesn't have an advanced Air Force you need to have more missile depot and launch locations that any enemy could possibly hit within 24 hours


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## PeeD

VEVAK, this is a scenario in which you set a kung fu master against a man with a handgun (aircraft vs. ballsitic missiles).

The airforce scenario is what the Americans want to dictate. They themselves don't use tactical BM's, they have treaties with Russia about this due to the potential of tipping it with nuclear warheads.

What they are allowed to use are cruise missiles, masses of it. Iran has a dozen airbases, just calculate what 2-3 thousands against each of them will cause in course of a few days. Irans current IADS would not be able to handle such a saturation attack. You want something like R-77 equipped Mig-35 to shot those massive volleys of Tomahawks down? Or TOR-M1 at minimal cost? This is not sufficient against such a massive superiority in numbers.

Massive numbers of low flying multi-attack-vector CMs are up to today something even the Russians with their IADS have fears about. Now the potential use of ballistic missiles is even more dangerous and difficult to stop.

That's why we come back to my initial statement: With Irans potential enemies (not the usual small regionals), anything depending on a airfield and not at a massively hardened location is too vulnerable. Airbases inside mountains are something of the past.

Ballistic missiles in underground bases come first, then the same for cruise missiles, then IADS assets protecting them.

This war scenario is completely different from what we know from the past. In the course of a few days either Irans offensive capabilities will be destroyed or Iran destroys the offensive capabilities of the enemy.
At the moment Irans missiles lack the very long ranges and true pin-point accuracy, plus the space based reconnaissance capability. Once this force structure is in place, Irans missile forces will give their best to degrade the offensive capability and if successful it's not of importance if a PAK-FA or a Shahed-129 cleans the battlefield of an enemy which has lost all its offensive assets which could pose a danger.

Iran could some day develop its airforce with Su-30, Qaher, UACV, or T-50, but this would only happen if what I described, the real backbone is strong enough and the budget allows to get some of these in order to fight low intensity wars against inferior enemies. The last airforce scenarios are a future fleet of intercontinental bombers or hypervelocity aircrafts for near space warfare, all of this is very far away.

Everything from F-22 to DF-21 to hardened missile silos to aircraft carriers to super airbases to HQs down to defense ministry will be handled by missile weapons (BM, CM, SAM).

Just ask yourself in which serious scenario any of Irans airbases could remain operational to enable airforce operations?

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## mse21

خوب مجبوریم رفیق وقتی شاهای قجر مملکت رو به پشم گرفته بودن و تیکه پاره ازش میفروختن برن خارجه حال کنن و با سرسره جنسی شون حال میکردن تو اروپا انقلاب صنعتی رو پیش میبردن.دیگه بالاخره 200 سال عقب افتادگی صنعتی باید خودشو جایی نشون بده یانه؟
من از مثال هام معذرت میخوام اما باید با واقعیت کنار اومد منم مثل شما ناراحتم دوتا کامنت هم قبلا باهم درموردش بحث کردیم اما چه میشه کرد تحریم و نبود علم دو نکته بسیار مهمه​


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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> aziz man hamina ke goftam 5000 mooshak daghigh ba 1200 cruse va 9 B ham baraye mooshak gheir daghighesh goftam. ke khodesh kheili arzoon tare.
> man tajjob mikonam harja har commenti in shekli didam harkas boode hey modam az naft o gaz migan. are darim ama vaghti nemitoonim befrooshim ya masalan jamiat ziadeh khob che khonim mage ma mesl ghatar masalan 1 melion hastim?! mohem nist cheghad darim mohem forooshe va jamiati ke gharare bahash sir konim.
> koodooom az hamsayeh haye ma bombafkan sangin daran?? ke gheir az 3 keshvar aval bomb afkan sangin dare???
> ba awacs movafegham
> ettefaghan too niroo havaee soraat pishraft selah kamtare masalan amarram d chan sale oomade? f22 chan saleh? shoma middoni ke hazine tahghigh tose sakht ye jangande chand darmiad khob motmaennan az hazine ye telephon bishtare. soraat sakhtesham hamintor.
> vaghti mooshak sakhti va estefade nakardi in mimoone ta chand sal momkene masalan bakhsh hayee azash upgrade beshe ke goftam bishtar hazinash sarjangee sookht hastan pas aya ma bish az 30000 mooshak balistic niaz darim?? ba darsad barkhord 50 darsad ke 6000 tash bayad mooshak haye daghigh 2000 cruse baghiash hadaf hastan amalan baraye khali kardan defa havaee.
> inam ke goftid 10B FAGHAT havapeyma inam ziade. kheli ke beshe mishe 7B na 10B (hesab kardam ghablan) .onam faghat havapeyma! hamchin pooli aslan nadarim.
> darkol ziad goftid gheymat mooshak va hazineh harsalash



1.Ma Irani ha bayad befahmeem keh nafti keh dareem barayeh dasti doodan o pool to jeebi dodan beh mellat neest
Agheh gharar bood pool e naft beyneh 80 Million tagseem koneem badbakht meshodeem
Yaraneh dodan ahmaghtarreen karri yeh keh yeh dollat metoneh anjom bedeh!

2.Dar asl beshtar az 80% dollar pool naft Iran bayad kharj tooleedeh sellah ha boomi beshavad! Chera? Choon hagheghat jahan emroozeh ean ast keh resheh technology har keshvari dar tavanaii ha nezami on keshvar va aksar technology ha jaddeed donya resheh dar tajheezateh nezami dorad va agar keshvari bekhahad technology keshvaresh ro bala bebarad ta reffah va amneeat barayeh keshvarash beyavarad bayad dar on resheh sarmayehgozari konad va ta zamani keh ean sarmayehgozari hamash boomi boshad sood kardi lakeen agar ean pool kharej az keshvar shaved bi shak zarrar

Everything from simple electric engines to the Internet to your microwave you use at home to your cell phone, computer, radio, nanotechnology, batteries, cameras, Airplanes to even toys like quadcopters... all these things are rooted in or have advanced because of military weapons & military R&D!
Iran today is one of the fastest growing countries in Science & Technology BUT we haven't been able to turn theory, scale down models or a prototype into a product why? because of lack of funding & the truth is in every country there is only one organization disciplined enough, motivated enough & organized enough to turn such advancements into a usable product and that's the MILITARY & any advancement they make and any product they produce will eventually be transferred back to the civilian sector & turned into a product!

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## mse21

نظر من درمورد یارانه همون ندادنش هست اما درمورد خرج مملکت دوست گرامی شما انگار نمیدونی ما صرفا یک کشور وارد کننده هستیم اینارو باید با چی بخریمبرنج انواع اقسام کالاهای برقی و خیلی چیزهای دیگه و چون صادزرات خاصی جز نفت نیست و تولیدی در فرایند واردات صورت نمیگیره و عملا نرخ مالیات پایینه پس این پایین بودن نرخ مالیات با همین نفت جایگزین میشه بالاخره شهرسلزی هست و هزارویک مورد خرج دیگه که مردم سراسر دنیا با مالیات میدن اما ما با پول نفت داریم خرجش رو میدیم و چون تولید نداریم ارزش پول و میزان مالیات پایین مونده تا با مابقی پول نفت جایگزین بشه که متاسفانه اینده ای هم با این سرعت برای ایران چیشبینهی نمیشه مگر اینکه بتونیم به نحوی صادرات خیلی گسترده یعنی یه منبع مالی بزرگ پیداکنیم پس عملا همه پای پول نفت خوابیده ایم
درمورد خرج برای مباحث نظامی تنها درصورتی اتفاق میفته که یا خودمون درداخل تعارف رو بذاریم کنار و شرکت ها خصوصی بشن و تولید و خرید بسیار گسترده انجام بشه که ابتدا تولبید کاذب همرا با بدهی مشابه امریکا رخ میده و بعد از اون نرخ تولید واقعی میشه فایده اینکارهم اینه که الان وزارت دفاع برای خودش الیاژ توسعه میده پول خرج میکنه اما صزفا ازش موشک میسازه اگر خصوصی بشه همین یک خرج ممکنه جاهای دیگه هم به درد بخوره یا یه منبع پول بزرگ یا مالیات و افزایش نرخ خدمات با شیب تند یا افزایش فروش نفت داشته باشیم.یاهم به صادرات ثابت و پایدار همین سلاح دست پیداکنیم که اینم باتوجه به تحریم غیرممکنه
موارد دیگه مثلا صادرات اقلام غیر نظامی مدنظر نمیتونه باشه چون به دلیل نبود علم و بالا بودن هزینه تحقیق توسعه کیفیت کم و امثالهم فروش چندانی نخواهد داشت مگر با دامپینگ و درعین حال کنار گذاشتن دندون گردی کارخانه دارها که متاسفانه مسبب خیلی از مشکلاته بهمراه حمایت مالی دولت که شرکت زمین نخوره یا اینکه دولت خرج تحقیق توسعه رو در برخی قسمت ها بده یا وام های بی بهره و بسیار بلند مدت
درکل سرمایه نیاز داریم​


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> VEVAK, this is a scenario in which you set a kung fu master against a man with a handgun (aircraft vs. ballsitic missiles).
> 
> The airforce scenario is what the Americans want to dictate. They themselves don't use tactical BM's, they have treaties with Russia about this due to the potential of tipping it with nuclear warheads.
> 
> What they are allowed to use are cruise missiles, masses of it. Iran has a dozen airbases, just calculate what 2-3 thousands against each of them will cause in course of a few days. Irans current IADS would not be able to handle such a saturation attack. You want something like R-77 equipped Mig-35 to shot those massive volleys of Tomahawks down? Or TOR-M1 at minimal cost? This is not sufficient against such a massive superiority in numbers.
> 
> Massive numbers of low flying multi-attack-vector CMs are up to today something even the Russians with their IADS have fears about. Now the potential use of ballistic missiles is even more dangerous and difficult to stop.
> 
> That's why we come back to my initial statement: With Irans potential enemies (not the usual small regionals), anything depending on a airfield and not at a massively hardened location is too vulnerable. Airbases inside mountains are something of the past.
> 
> Ballistic missiles in underground bases come first, then the same for cruise missiles, then IADS assets protecting them.
> 
> This war scenario is completely different from what we know from the past. In the course of a few days either Irans offensive capabilities will be destroyed or Iran destroys the offensive capabilities of the enemy.
> At the moment Irans missiles lack the very long ranges and true pin-point accuracy, plus the space based reconnaissance capability. Once this force structure is in place, Irans missile forces will give their best to degrade the offensive capability and if successful it's not of importance if a PAK-FA or a Shahed-129 cleans the battlefield of an enemy which has lost all its offensive assets which could pose a danger.
> 
> Iran could some day develop its airforce with Su-30, Qaher, UACV, or T-50, but this would only happen if what I described, the real backbone is strong enough and the budget allows to get some of these in order to fight low intensity wars against inferior enemies. The last airforce scenarios are a future fleet of intercontinental bombers or hypervelocity aircrafts for near space warfare, all of this is very far away.
> 
> Everything from F-22 to DF-21 to hardened missile silos to aircraft carriers to super airbases to HQs down to defense ministry will be handled by missile weapons (BM, CM, SAM).
> 
> Just ask yourself in which serious scenario any of Irans airbases could remain operational to enable airforce operations?



A country the size of Iran with the Oil & Gas that it has in a conventional military structure has to at the very least purchase 12 "MODERN" Fighters a year to compliment it's Air Defense & strictly for Air Defense
Iran for the past 30 years hasn't done that so their is no point in speculating on how we would defend ourselves against a superior US Air Force if we had

And the U.S. is not bordered with Iran and just as they did with Iraq the U.S. will rely mostly on it's Air Force and
currently the U.S. can at MAX fire 1200 tomahawks at Iran in the 1st blitz attack
That's 100 at each Base taking out the top 5 Air Bases top 5 light bunkered missile bases coastal areas & that leaves ~200 to go after Iranian Radars & SAM sites paving the way for their Air Force to go after Iran's top 50 missile bases with 300 Fighter Aircraft each Aircraft doing 2 sorties a day a squadron of 12 Aircraft towards each base
And once they are assured they have full Air Superiority & vital SAM system have been taken out Bombers & UAV's will go after the rest bombers to totally destroy deep underground bases & UAV's to hit mobile launchers 

So the only way to counter this with Iran's current capabilities is to have more missile at more bases on launcher that are ready to hit their pre determined targets in a very short time span that means you need more than 500 missile bases that are well protected with each base having at least 10 missiles ready to go with an extremely fast reaction time 
And Iranian UCAV & MALE UAV's have to be scattered across 1000 airstrips & Air Fields Iran already has 

Iran has to show that right after the US 1st wave blitz attack it can still hit the top 2000 US assets within 1000km, drop 1000 on various Saudi Oil Facilities & shut down the Persian Gulf that gives you a deterrence that allows you to build up an Air Force & you need an Air Force to use in situation where you don't want to use up your deterrence factor


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## PeeD

Against Iran, the Americans probably would just use Tomahawks, ATACMS and what else stand-off missiles they have in the first day.
They would reload their ships and fire more Tomahawks. Basically they would just do what Iran plans to do, pave the enemy with the missiles they have available first.
Iran is simply too dangerous to start the conflict with F-15, -16, -18, -22, -35 and with B-1 and -2. Their elite, means F-22, -35 and B-2 would start operations after the missile attack in the low threat regions determined by reconnaissance. 

Now the Americans never had to deal with a country which has credible deterrence capability. Because Americans rely so much on their air power, Iran will just destroy the bases and carriers from which those mainly limited range assets operate, or disrupt the operations from the airbases.
In comparison with the task of the Americans, neutralizing Irans ballistic missile force, Irans task to neutralizing American airpower (via disrupting base/carrier operations) is several times easier.

If the serious assets, the airpower and air defense is rendered in-operational, a fleet of 2000 Shahed-129 with Sadid 40kg bombs (stored in underground bases) would be sufficient to project massive airpower throughout the region. This is just a example, but if the serious assets have fought their war, 2000 S-129 for maybe just 500 million $ could be sufficient for serious airpower. For 500m $ you can get some 8 Su-30.

The missile war will be the serious war, depending on the results ground forces and 2000 S-129 would do the rest, or ground forces and 8 Su-30.

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## veg

PeeD said:


> Against Iran, the Americans probably would just use Tomahawks, ATACMS and what else stand-off missiles they have in the first day.
> They would reload their ships and fire more Tomahawks. Basically they would just do what Iran plans to do, pave the enemy with the missiles they have available first.
> Iran is simply too dangerous to start the conflict with F-15, -16, -18, -22, -35 and with B-1 and -2. Their elite, means F-22, -35 and B-2 would start operations after the missile attack in the low threat regions determined by reconnaissance.
> 
> Now the Americans never had to deal with a country which has credible deterrence capability. Because Americans rely so much on their air power, Iran will just destroy the bases and carriers from which those mainly limited range assets operate, or disrupt the operations from the airbases.
> In comparison with the task of the Americans, neutralizing Irans ballistic missile force, Irans task to neutralizing American airpower (via disrupting base/carrier operations) is several times easier.
> 
> If the serious assets, the airpower and air defense is rendered in-operational, a fleet of 2000 Shahed-129 with Sadid 40kg bombs (stored in underground bases) would be sufficient to project massive airpower throughout the region. This is just a example, but if the serious assets have fought their war, 2000 S-129 for maybe just 500 million $ could be sufficient for serious airpower. For 500m $ you can get some 8 Su-30.
> 
> The missile war will be the serious war, depending on the results ground forces and 2000 S-129 would do the rest, or ground forces and 8 Su-30.





PeeD said:


> Against Iran, the Americans probably would just use Tomahawks, ATACMS and what else stand-off missiles they have in the first day.
> They would reload their ships and fire more Tomahawks. Basically they would just do what Iran plans to do, pave the enemy with the missiles they have available first.
> Iran is simply too dangerous to start the conflict with F-15, -16, -18, -22, -35 and with B-1 and -2. Their elite, means F-22, -35 and B-2 would start operations after the missile attack in the low threat regions determined by reconnaissance.
> 
> Now the Americans never had to deal with a country which has credible deterrence capability. Because Americans rely so much on their air power, Iran will just destroy the bases and carriers from which those mainly limited range assets operate, or disrupt the operations from the airbases.
> In comparison with the task of the Americans, neutralizing Irans ballistic missile force, Irans task to neutralizing American airpower (via disrupting base/carrier operations) is several times easier.
> 
> If the serious assets, the airpower and air defense is rendered in-operational, a fleet of 2000 Shahed-129 with Sadid 40kg bombs (stored in underground bases) would be sufficient to project massive airpower throughout the region. This is just a example, but if the serious assets have fought their war, 2000 S-129 for maybe just 500 million $ could be sufficient for serious airpower. For 500m $ you can get some 8 Su-30.
> 
> The missile war will be the serious war, depending on the results ground forces and 2000 S-129 would do the rest, or ground forces and 8 Su-30.



I fully agree with you with the use of Drones. 

But it seems to me that Shahed 129 is more of a surveillance drone. US hit 2 Shahed 129 drones in Syria last month. Even Pakistan was able to detect and hit Shahed 129 easily with their JF-17. Hell even Syria was able to hit US drone (which was similar to Shahed 129) in Syria. 

Therefore, perhaps it would be more beneficial if specialized combat Drones (like Sofar-e-Mahi) are used instead of Shahed 129, which seems to be only good against illiterate enemies like Taliban/ISIS/al-Qaida. 

If Iran could produce small cheap STEALTH combat drones, then I believe it would be much better option than having 2 dozens of SU-30 fighter jets.


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## PeeD

veg said:


> ...instead of Shahed 129, which seems to be only good against illiterate enemies like Taliban/ISIS/al-Qaida.



With your missile forces you degrade the enemies offensive and defensive capabilities to such a level that they effectively become like Taliban and ISIS, hence they can't even threaten your low cost assets anymore. No operational airbases to operate any surviving aircraft, no air defense systems operational that could reach out to above 15.000 feet.
If you are able to degrade the enemy in such a way, my theoretical example of 2000 Shahed-129 vs. 8 Su-30 becomes reality. Iran will never go for 2000 S-129, but this example teaches some lessons about airpower and missile power.

People have generally grown up with Americans fighting Iraqis, Serbs, Afghans and again Iraqis. Many have the impression that wars again the US look like that and heavily overestimate western airpower. Today Iran would fight a war which would look completely different, Iran is not a country that plays the game with the rules dictated by the enemy.

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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> نظر من درمورد یارانه همون ندادنش هست اما درمورد خرج مملکت دوست گرامی شما انگار نمیدونی ما صرفا یک کشور وارد کننده هستیم اینارو باید با چی بخریمبرنج انواع اقسام کالاهای برقی و خیلی چیزهای دیگه و چون صادزرات خاصی جز نفت نیست و تولیدی در فرایند واردات صورت نمیگیره و عملا نرخ مالیات پایینه پس این پایین بودن نرخ مالیات با همین نفت جایگزین میشه بالاخره شهرسلزی هست و هزارویک مورد خرج دیگه که مردم سراسر دنیا با مالیات میدن اما ما با پول نفت داریم خرجش رو میدیم و چون تولید نداریم ارزش پول و میزان مالیات پایین مونده تا با مابقی پول نفت جایگزین بشه که متاسفانه اینده ای هم با این سرعت برای ایران چیشبینهی نمیشه مگر اینکه بتونیم به نحوی صادرات خیلی گسترده یعنی یه منبع مالی بزرگ پیداکنیم پس عملا همه پای پول نفت خوابیده ایم
> درمورد خرج برای مباحث نظامی تنها درصورتی اتفاق میفته که یا خودمون درداخل تعارف رو بذاریم کنار و شرکت ها خصوصی بشن و تولید و خرید بسیار گسترده انجام بشه که ابتدا تولبید کاذب همرا با بدهی مشابه امریکا رخ میده و بعد از اون نرخ تولید واقعی میشه فایده اینکارهم اینه که الان وزارت دفاع برای خودش الیاژ توسعه میده پول خرج میکنه اما صزفا ازش موشک میسازه اگر خصوصی بشه همین یک خرج ممکنه جاهای دیگه هم به درد بخوره یا یه منبع پول بزرگ یا مالیات و افزایش نرخ خدمات با شیب تند یا افزایش فروش نفت داشته باشیم.یاهم به صادرات ثابت و پایدار همین سلاح دست پیداکنیم که اینم باتوجه به تحریم غیرممکنه
> موارد دیگه مثلا صادرات اقلام غیر نظامی مدنظر نمیتونه باشه چون به دلیل نبود علم و بالا بودن هزینه تحقیق توسعه کیفیت کم و امثالهم فروش چندانی نخواهد داشت مگر با دامپینگ و درعین حال کنار گذاشتن دندون گردی کارخانه دارها که متاسفانه مسبب خیلی از مشکلاته بهمراه حمایت مالی دولت که شرکت زمین نخوره یا اینکه دولت خرج تحقیق توسعه رو در برخی قسمت ها بده یا وام های بی بهره و بسیار بلند مدت
> درکل سرمایه نیاز داریم​


Baleh ma keshvar vared konandeh hasteem va agar dar hameen rah peesh beraveem keshvareh varedkonandeh khaheem mond!
Being one of the fastest growing countries in science & technology is useless when it's all on paper with theories, scale down models & prototypes!
Va balleh khaili as tarrof bazzi ha va parti bozi ha ro bayad gozasht kenar va sherkat ha bayad dollati ommomi boshand yani sherkat o dollat payehgozari mesozeh va bad ba gharadod bastan va toleed shekat ha ro meyari to boors Tehran va omoomishoon mikoni keh hamey mardom betonan to on sherkat ha sarmayehgozari konand va sood bebarand va modeeron javabgoo e sahamdoron shavand va ba ean kar parti bozi ha shakhsi barayeh sood hayeh shakhsi ro ta haddi az bayn mebari

If Qods Aviation is unable to produce UAV's as good as Shahed Aviation then they shouldn't get a contract just because they are the oldest producers in Iran & that's how you create competition to build superior products







Except for Saudi Arabia (that doesn't produce it's own weapons) all the countries on that list don't just have the largest military expenditures in the world but they are also the list of the top producers & technologically advanced counties in the world why? Because their products can compete globally! How did they get there? They got there because there is a direct correlation between their weapons expenditure and technological growth & production capability!

If Iran want's to be an exporter then it needs to be able to compete globally & the real root to get there as it has been with almost all these countries is with military R&D! If you invest in military robotics eventually that technology will go to the civilian sector and will turn to household robots & industrial robots, if you invest in optics, software, naval engines, Turbofan engines, avionics, communications, sensors,.....

As long as your continuously investing you defense budget in the most cutting edge technologies then that technology or weapon or part to build that weapon or materials & tools to build that weapon will find it's way to your civilian sector & that's when your able to produce products that can compete globally!

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> Against Iran, the Americans probably would just use Tomahawks, ATACMS and what else stand-off missiles they have in the first day.
> They would reload their ships and fire more Tomahawks. Basically they would just do what Iran plans to do, pave the enemy with the missiles they have available first.
> Iran is simply too dangerous to start the conflict with F-15, -16, -18, -22, -35 and with B-1 and -2. Their elite, means F-22, -35 and B-2 would start operations after the missile attack in the low threat regions determined by reconnaissance.
> 
> Now the Americans never had to deal with a country which has credible deterrence capability. Because Americans rely so much on their air power, Iran will just destroy the bases and carriers from which those mainly limited range assets operate, or disrupt the operations from the airbases.
> In comparison with the task of the Americans, neutralizing Irans ballistic missile force, Irans task to neutralizing American airpower (via disrupting base/carrier operations) is several times easier.
> 
> If the serious assets, the airpower and air defense is rendered in-operational, a fleet of 2000 Shahed-129 with Sadid 40kg bombs (stored in underground bases) would be sufficient to project massive airpower throughout the region. This is just a example, but if the serious assets have fought their war, 2000 S-129 for maybe just 500 million $ could be sufficient for serious airpower. For 500m $ you can get some 8 Su-30.
> 
> The missile war will be the serious war, depending on the results ground forces and 2000 S-129 would do the rest, or ground forces and 8 Su-30.



Does Iran have the industrial capabilities to produce 2,000 drones in a short period of time?


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## Arminkh

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Does Iran have the industrial capabilities to produce 2,000 drones in a short period of time?


Judging by its car production capacity, yes. Even more.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Against Iran, the Americans probably would just use Tomahawks, ATACMS and what else stand-off missiles they have in the first day.
> They would reload their ships and fire more Tomahawks. Basically they would just do what Iran plans to do, pave the enemy with the missiles they have available first.
> Iran is simply too dangerous to start the conflict with F-15, -16, -18, -22, -35 and with B-1 and -2. Their elite, means F-22, -35 and B-2 would start operations after the missile attack in the low threat regions determined by reconnaissance.
> 
> Now the Americans never had to deal with a country which has credible deterrence capability. Because Americans rely so much on their air power, Iran will just destroy the bases and carriers from which those mainly limited range assets operate, or disrupt the operations from the airbases.
> In comparison with the task of the Americans, neutralizing Irans ballistic missile force, Irans task to neutralizing American airpower (via disrupting base/carrier operations) is several times easier.
> 
> If the serious assets, the airpower and air defense is rendered in-operational, a fleet of 2000 Shahed-129 with Sadid 40kg bombs (stored in underground bases) would be sufficient to project massive airpower throughout the region. This is just a example, but if the serious assets have fought their war, 2000 S-129 for maybe just 500 million $ could be sufficient for serious airpower. For 500m $ you can get some 8 Su-30.
> 
> The missile war will be the serious war, depending on the results ground forces and 2000 S-129 would do the rest, or ground forces and 8 Su-30.



You comparing a Su-30 with a MALE UAV!

Shahed-129 fly under 20,000 ft making them easy targets for advanced AAA, MANPAD & low cost Air Defense systems! They are also extremely slow a Helicopter like the Super Cobra is almost twice as fast as a Shahed-129 so even helicopters can gun them down!
Iran's Shahed-129's also require an operator on the ground within ~250km of the target again not a simple task.
And lets say you program them and leave them on auto pilot if the U.S. sees 100 Shahed-129's coming at them they will simply send 10 A-10 to intercept and down them using guns before they can get within 100km and if a few slip threw other fighters, helicopters & finally Air Defense systems will take care of the rest

And if Iran had Su-30's they would strictly use them over Iranian Air Space for Air Defense not to mount an offensive! 

US Tomahawks have a limited payload capacity no more than 1000lb (at best to penetrate an Aircraft bunker ) and they are not enough to penetrate deep underground bunkers so your wrong

US Tomahawks will go after Air Defenses, Coastal Missile bunkers & Iran's Air Force and they will clear a path to every Iranian Missile Base (We currently have about 50 main missile bases)
To destroy those bases they need to use bombs that are at least 4000lb each so they'll be using F-15 strike eagle escorted by F-22's and once they are assured most vital Air Defense systems are gone then they'll bring in B-2's
U.S. is more reliant on it's Air Force and their Tomahawks just as they did in Iraq will go after Iran's Air Force, Iran's Air Defense & Coastal Missiles just to clear a path for their Air Force
F-22's will be escorts, F-35's will focus on any Iranian Air Defense left on the ground with F-15's doing most of the heavy lifting & they'll only send stealth bombers in after the 1st wave of fighters but after the Tomahawks the 1st wave will be with fighter mainly because of their speed and stealth bombers will come in only on the 2nd run against targets that didn't get destroyed the 1st time around


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## PeeD

@VEVAK 

- Traditionally an enemy with degraded forces is not able to reach out above 15k feet nor having early warning --> at this point something like a S-129 becomes effective.

- Ground based data-link is what is used now. UAV airborne relais are what will be used in near future and satellite communication in future.

- In the degraded capability scenario, the enemy has no operable A-10 or fighter aircraft. You mentioned helicopters, they have higher serviceability (no need for airfield) in this scenario but are useless to hunt MALE UAVs, mainly because early warning would be already neutralized.

- I never said Tomahawks can take out Irans mountain missile bases. But they take out airfields, aircrafts in lighter HAS, fuel depots, weapons depots. Basically anything that is not hardened. In Irans case with its BM arsenal, also heaviest hardened airbases can be taken out. Just imagine what sub munition warheads cause on a airbase, alone the debris on the runway.
Irans missile bases just have to survive the initial attack, find some minutes to move out the mobile missile teams to unknown locations and the missile force becomes active.

- Tomahawks will take out all static targets, from Shah era early warning radar stations to Shah era airbases etc.
They won't take out 3rd Khordad SAM teams, Matla ol Fajr-2 long range radars, Ghadr mobile missile teams and troposcatter communication vehicles. This are targets that could be anywhere, can't be tracked because always on the move.
The airbase you want to station your modern fighters will be a static target and the question is only how many Tomahawks it can fend off and take until it goes off.

- Americans won't send F-15 with bunker busters if there are 3rd Khordad teams active in the operation area. Their doctrine is to have a SEAD/DEAD campaign first, before they send such vulnerable assets in. F-22 escort does not change this, F-22 and -35 would rather try their best as part of the SEAD/DEAD campaign. You are right that the B-2 would wait until that campaign is over, so B-1 and B-52. The funny part is just that no SEAD/DEAD assets such as F-15/-16/-18/-22/-35 would be able to operate because no operation from bases close enough to Iran is possible (BM and CM missile attacks against them). So this all is a non-starter in Irans case.
Of course if Irans missile forces fail or greatly under-perform, then all your scenarios with bunker busting F-15 and SEAD operation F-35 could become reality.


@BlueInGreen2 

2000 Shahed-129 was a theoretical exercise to compare costs and effects. At the moment Iran imports the engines for the S-129, real cost effective volume production with the price I assumed should not be possible. But I highly doubt its Irans goal to mass produce S-129 in huge numbers. Just wanted to compare a traditional airforce asset to a novel airpower asset for a scenario of a degraded enemy (by upper tier weapons = missiles).

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## mse21

@VEVAK
خوندمش
حمل بر بی احترامی نباشه اما شما اشکالت اینه که فکر میکنی این چیزایی که گفتی قراره با سرمایه گذاری وزارت دفاع ساخته بشه درصورتی که برعکسه باید شرکت خصوصی بشه اول بعدا این چیزا ساخته بشن.یعنی نه اینکه صرفا سرمایبه وزارت دفاع باشه برعکس هم باید باشه
البته چیزیه که من فهمیدم اگر اشتباس بفرمایید​


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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> - Traditionally an enemy with degraded forces is not able to reach out above 15k feet nor having early warning --> at this point something like a S-129 becomes effective.
> 
> - Ground based data-link is what is used now. UAV airborne relais are what will be used in near future and satellite communication in future.
> 
> - In the degraded capability scenario, the enemy has no operable A-10 or fighter aircraft. You mentioned helicopters, they have higher serviceability (no need for airfield) in this scenario but are useless to hunt MALE UAVs, mainly because early warning would be already neutralized.
> 
> - I never said Tomahawks can take out Irans mountain missile bases. But they take out airfields, aircrafts in lighter HAS, fuel depots, weapons depots. Basically anything that is not hardened. In Irans case with its BM arsenal, also heaviest hardened airbases can be taken out. Just imagine what sub munition warheads cause on a airbase, alone the debris on the runway.
> Irans missile bases just have to survive the initial attack, find some minutes to move out the mobile missile teams to unknown locations and the missile force becomes active.
> 
> - Tomahawks will take out all static targets, from Shah era early warning radar stations to Shah era airbases etc.
> They won't take out 3rd Khordad SAM teams, Matla ol Fajr-2 long range radars, Ghadr mobile missile teams and troposcatter communication vehicles. This are targets that could be anywhere, can't be tracked because always on the move.
> The airbase you want to station your modern fighters will be a static target and the question is only how many Tomahawks it can fend off and take until it goes off.
> 
> - Americans won't send F-15 with bunker busters if there are 3rd Khordad teams active in the operation area. Their doctrine is to have a SEAD/DEAD campaign first, before they send such vulnerable assets in. F-22 escort does not change this, F-22 and -35 would rather try their best as part of the SEAD/DEAD campaign. You are right that the B-2 would wait until that campaign is over, so B-1 and B-52. The funny part is just that no SEAD/DEAD assets such as F-15/-16/-18/-22/-35 would be able to operate because no operation from bases close enough to Iran is possible (BM and CM missile attacks against them). So this all is a non-starter in Irans case.
> Of course if Irans missile forces fail or greatly under-perform, then all your scenarios with bunker busting F-15 and SEAD operation F-35 could become reality.
> 
> 
> @BlueInGreen2
> 
> 2000 Shahed-129 was a theoretical exercise to compare costs and effects. At the moment Iran imports the engines for the S-129, real cost effective volume production with the price I assumed should not be possible. But I highly doubt its Irans goal to mass produce S-129 in huge numbers. Just wanted to compare a traditional airforce asset to a novel airpower asset for a scenario of a degraded enemy (by upper tier weapons = missiles).



Very bleak prospect of an American attack on Iran. Seems like a loss from the onset. 

Eh, I'm guessing there are things that Iran has that the public don't know about but the US DOD does and that is what is preventing them and has prevented them from an all out attack on Iran.


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## mse21

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Eh, I'm guessing there are things that Iran has that the public don't know about but the US DOD does and that is what is preventing them and has prevented them from an all out attack on Iran.


what things?
ps: i know US is not going to attack iran but these guys have their own opinios


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## Aramagedon

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Very bleak prospect of an American attack on Iran. Seems like a loss from the onset.
> 
> Eh, I'm guessing there are things that Iran has that the public don't know about but the US DOD does and that is what is preventing them and has prevented them from an all out attack on Iran.


What can American soldiers do in Iran?

Play football?

Iran is not Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Yemen. Iran is a 80 million country, united, honored, patriot and it has sufficient central government which is armed with semi proper weapons, very strong intelligence power, strong electronic warfare, missile, nuclear and the most important very bold manpower.

Satan is looser when it comes to Iran.
















http://shoebat.com/2015/08/11/the-g...to-worship-the-devil-the-end-times-are-coming

http://shoebat.com/2015/08/11/the-g...to-worship-the-devil-the-end-times-are-coming

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## Blue In Green

mse21 said:


> what things?
> ps: i know US is not going to attack iran but these guys have their own opinios



Just conjecture really. I'd like to think iran as some sort of ace up the sleeve that no one knows about. But I digress maybe Iran is just too big a piece of meat for the US to bite.

Getting the American people to support this war would be the biggest hurdle. As the mere prospect of another middle eastern war would send shivers down many Americans spine. Especially against a country with the means to hurt us back.

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## OguzSenturk

2800 said:


> Satan is looser when it comes to Iran.
> 
> View attachment 414153
> 
> View attachment 414154



Hahahaha are you kidding right

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## hans

With less and less demand of Middle east oil, US is more likely to mess everything up in US and then leave...
Will not stay too long like in Afghanistan or Iraq...



BlueInGreen2 said:


> Just conjecture really. I'd like to think iran as some sort of ace up the sleeve that no one knows about. But I digress maybe Iran is just too big a piece of meat for the US to bite.
> 
> Getting the American people to support this war would be the biggest hurdle. As the mere prospect of another middle eastern war would send shivers down many Americans spine. Especially against a country with the means to hurt us back.

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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> @VEVAK
> خوندمش
> حمل بر بی احترامی نباشه اما شما اشکالت اینه که فکر میکنی این چیزایی که گفتی قراره با سرمایه گذاری وزارت دفاع ساخته بشه درصورتی که برعکسه باید شرکت خصوصی بشه اول بعدا این چیزا ساخته بشن.یعنی نه اینکه صرفا سرمایبه وزارت دفاع باشه برعکس هم باید باشه
> البته چیزیه که من فهمیدم اگر اشتباس بفرمایید​



Dar Iran beh daleeleh kambood etemood dar 10 sol e avval Dollat ba komakeh sherkat ha Vezarateh Deffa bayad sarmayehgozari konad va dast beh kar shavand ta 10 sol e degar dollat betavanad bakhshi az ean sherkat ha ra beh mardom dar boors Tehran erraeh dahand!


Halla aghar shkhsi ham mahsool va ham tavanaii toleed e sellahi ra doshteh boshad keh as lahazeh technology bartar boshad malloomeh keh dollat mostalzam ast keh dar on sherkat sarmayehgozari konad lakeen cheeneen cheezi dar jahan e emroozeh kamtar deedeh shodeh! chera? choon dar kolleh jahan beshtar no avari ha az vezarateh deffah-ha va sherkat-ha e on dar miayand na bar aks!

Va dollat masool ast keh ba ejodeh reghabat sherkat ha ro be jello holl dahad vagarneh heech sherkati doost nadarad ta majboor shaved ta mahsooli no be bazar biyavarad makhsoosan sherkat ha e khosoosi!
Beh har hol ean masooleyateh dollat ast ta ean reghabat ra dorost konad hol che reghabat daroon e yeh sherkat boshad cheh beyneh sherkat ha va cheh sherkat khosoosi boshad cheh dollati!


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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> Judging by its car production capacity, yes. Even more.



If your specifically talking about the Air Frame & Engine then yes Iran could potentially produce far more than 2,000 Airframes & Engines a year if need be!
But a UAV is not just an Engine & an Air Frame and that Aircraft doesn't cost $500,000 USD because of it's Air Frame & Engine!


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## Arminkh

VEVAK said:


> If your specifically talking about the Air Frame & Engine then yes Iran could potentially produce far more than 2,000 Airframes & Engines a year if need be!
> But a UAV is not just an Engine & an Air Frame and that Aircraft doesn't cost $500,000 USD because of it's Air Frame & Engine!


If you are referring to the avionics and electronics inside the drone, those are much faster to produce that the air frame.

Who said Shahed 129 costs $500,000?


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## VEVAK

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Very bleak prospect of an American attack on Iran. Seems like a loss from the onset.
> 
> Eh, I'm guessing there are things that Iran has that the public don't know about but the US DOD does and that is what is preventing them and has prevented them from an all out attack on Iran.



I said that is what they would plan to do that doesn't mean they'll be successful! Or that Iran wouldn't be able to hit their bases before their fighters go in for the 2nd wave!

1000 Cruise Missiles aren't going to cross Iranian boarders unnoticed! Iran will easily have over 30 minutes warning before those missiles reach Shiraz or Esfahan and currently the U.S. can only speculate on what Iran's response time will be and the U.S. can't ignore Iran's Navy & IRGC Navy because they can cut off 1/3 of the worlds Oil Supply.
And the U.S. will truly have to risk most of it's vital bases in the Middle East just to go to war with Iran and for what? 

They'll never be able to invade Iran or change the government in Iran and so Iran's Middle East policy will only get harsher because Iran hasn't done anything to warrant an Attack!

Also, unlike U.S. allies Iran's government isn't structured around a few people! So the U.S. also doesn't know what Iran is capable of doing covertly that could severely effect geopolitics of the region against the U.S.....

The day's where U.S. could sell weapons to Iran like they are doing to the Saudi's is over the U.S. just has to accept that and move on!



Arminkh said:


> If you are referring to the avionics and electronics inside the drone, those are much faster to produce that the air frame.
> 
> Who said Shahed 129 costs $500,000?



The head of IRGC Aerospace forces said it's $500,000
And they are only faster to produce if you have the equipment to mass produce them

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## OldTwilight

از امروز به مدت 2 یا 3 روز خبری از حسن روحانی نخواهد بود

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## yavar

*Iran Gen Hajizadeh: effort has doubled for reinforcement missile power سردار حاجی زاده تقویت موشکی*

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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> *Iran Gen Hajizadeh: effort has doubled for reinforcement missile power سردار حاجی زاده تقویت موشکی*



These are privet missile rocketeers of the Basij making handmade missiles as a hobby in a small village! Good for them BUT that thing doesn't have any real military applications!

I guess the most interesting part would be the guidance & flight control system and how they were able to get it to actually hit the target


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## Cthulhu

VEVAK said:


> I guess the most interesting part would be the guidance & flight control system and how they were able to get it to actually hit the target


They use one of the most sophisticated flight control systems that exists. Fly-by-wire controlling system.

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## VEVAK

Cthulhu said:


> They use one of the most sophisticated flight control systems that exists. Fly-by-wire controlling system.



If it didn't have Fly-By-Wire it wouldn't have a guidance system even if the missile was guided by regular RC type remote control it would still be considered a fly by wire guidance because there is no pilot for it to be anything other than that!!!

I would recommend them to base their power plant on a pulsejet engine with a much smaller Airframe Iranian RC hobbyist make the engines in Iran it's not complicated at all that's why it would be important to know what type of guidance they've used






Iran's military should consider mass producing cheap Pulsejet engine drones that use cheep diesel or gasoline as fuel used as both recon & attack suicide drones to be used in both swarm tactic or single missions and built in all sizes to cover anything from 5km to 300km 
You can build them to outrun a Helicopter so you can use them to intercept lower flying Helo's, You can send a swarm after incoming Tank Battalion or send them after infantry units or use them in Anti-Ship operation, you can use them in anti-terrorist operations because they are cheap,.....


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## mse21

VEVAK said:


> If it didn't have Fly-By-Wire it wouldn't have a guidance system even if the missile was guided by regular RC type remote control it would still be considered a fly by wire guidance because there is no pilot for it to be anything other than that!!!
> 
> I would recommend them to base their power plant on a pulsejet engine with a much smaller Airframe Iranian RC hobbyist make the engines in Iran it's not complicated at all that's why it would be important to know what type of guidance they've used
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's military should consider mass producing cheap Pulsejet engine drones that use cheep diesel or gasoline as fuel used as both recon & attack suicide drones to be used in both swarm tactic or single missions and built in all sizes to cover anything from 5km to 300km
> You can build them to outrun a Helicopter so you can use them to intercept lower flying Helo's, You can send a swarm after incoming Tank Battalion or send them after infantry units or use them in Anti-Ship operation, you can use them in anti-terrorist operations because they are cheap,.....


مشخصه روش حسابی سرمایه گذاری کردن
پالس جت بسیار پرمصرفه بسیار هم داغ میکنه پس الیاژ مناسبی داره
به ازای هرثانیه نمونه های کوچیک 250 سی سی سوخت اعلام شده بود که تو یکی از فرو های ایرانی کسی که خودش ساخته بود گفته بود پس رو مصرف سوخت و میزان سوخت داخلی هم خوب کارکردن
به نظرم به درد ما نمیخوره چرا:
الان موتورش قوی نیست که بشه لود خوب داشته باشه
ما خودمون موتور جت با حدود 700 پاوند تراست داریم که حدود سه کیلونیوتن میشه
تولید جدید هزینه برداره یعنی باید تحقیق و توسعه دوباره بکنی اونم تکنولوژی قدیمی و یکبار مصرف
کلا به کار ماهم نمیاد دلیل توسعه این موتور چی میتونه باشه؟ کروز؟ پهپاد؟ همونا با یه موتور طلوع کارشون راه میفته پهچاد یا کروز با این موتور چه مشکلی دوا میکنه؟ موتور عملا کم تراست به دست میاد که لود بزرگ نداره پس نمیشه کروز بزرگ ساخت. البته واقف هستم که کروز وی1 هم باهمینا پرواز کرد اما چرا باید توسعه موتور جدید بدیم وقتی یکی از قبل داریم برای پهپاد هم همینطوره
کما اینکه موتور طلوع عمر مصرف سوخت بهتری داره و همچنین موتور استارت اولیه میتونه به عنوان یه ژنراتور هم عمل کنه که این پاس جت همچین چیزی نداره
تولید پهپاد هدف هم راه ساده تری داره
مثل پهپادهای لوکاست
دیدی چی ساختن؟

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## WordsMatter

Here's something to ponder: the head of IRGC-ASF unveiled achievement of Basiji villagers in Mazandaran province, and shows off a guided missile. The joke is it was wired up as shown in the pictures below. Now that's what I call pure BS, corruption, waste, deceit and stupidity. Anyone wants to argue against skepticism when it comes to IRI's pronouncements?! These people lie half the time, exaggerate the other half and we are expected to believe the garbage they spew. I feel really sorry for Iranian people whose treasure is being pillaged by these lying, conniving bastards.

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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> مشخصه روش حسابی سرمایه گذاری کردن
> پالس جت بسیار پرمصرفه بسیار هم داغ میکنه پس الیاژ مناسبی داره
> به ازای هرثانیه نمونه های کوچیک 250 سی سی سوخت اعلام شده بود که تو یکی از فرو های ایرانی کسی که خودش ساخته بود گفته بود پس رو مصرف سوخت و میزان سوخت داخلی هم خوب کارکردن
> به نظرم به درد ما نمیخوره چرا:
> الان موتورش قوی نیست که بشه لود خوب داشته باشه
> ما خودمون موتور جت با حدود 700 پاوند تراست داریم که حدود سه کیلونیوتن میشه
> تولید جدید هزینه برداره یعنی باید تحقیق و توسعه دوباره بکنی اونم تکنولوژی قدیمی و یکبار مصرف
> کلا به کار ماهم نمیاد دلیل توسعه این موتور چی میتونه باشه؟ کروز؟ پهپاد؟ همونا با یه موتور طلوع کارشون راه میفته پهچاد یا کروز با این موتور چه مشکلی دوا میکنه؟ موتور عملا کم تراست به دست میاد که لود بزرگ نداره پس نمیشه کروز بزرگ ساخت. البته واقف هستم که کروز وی1 هم باهمینا پرواز کرد اما چرا باید توسعه موتور جدید بدیم وقتی یکی از قبل داریم برای پهپاد هم همینطوره
> کما اینکه موتور طلوع عمر مصرف سوخت بهتری داره و همچنین موتور استارت اولیه میتونه به عنوان یه ژنراتور هم عمل کنه که این پاس جت همچین چیزی نداره
> تولید پهپاد هدف هم راه ساده تری داره
> مثل پهپادهای لوکاست
> دیدی چی ساختن؟



Masaleh Ghavi bodan neest masaleh arzoon bodan va tooled anbooh barayeh tacktick ha e Swarm e!

Baleh yeh motoreh Jet sodeh ba yek turbin va yek compressor ham metoneh ham ghodratesho beshtar koneh, ham soratesho, ham sagfe parvazeesho va ham bord o balla bebareh laken ghaymatesho neez balla tar mebareh!

Ean cheezi e keh Iran metoneh soli 10,000 ta 10,000 ta besozeh! Dar zamaneh jang jahani dovvom(WW2) Almon nazdeek 30,000 V1 sokht keh har kodoom beesh az 2 tone vazn doshtan 650 leetr benzene beshtar nemekhord va sarreh jangi ~2000lb ro 250km haml mekard "2000LB" do barra bar Tomahawk va 10 barabar mooshak e Cruise NOOR Iran

ma na modeleh 2 toni sho lazem dareem na lazem dareem 2000lb bomb haml koneh!

model ha koochek tar ba vazn e kamtar va sarreh jangi e kocheektar!

Bejayeh estefadeh az toop ha bellastic sangeen mamoli az ean ha estefadeh mekoni keh ham dagheegh tar hastand va metonan ro havva bemonan va donbaleh hadaf begardan, ham barayeh shenasaii metoni estefadashoon koni, ham baray amaliat ha va tacktic ha e mokhtalef mesleh hadaf geari helicopter ha, shenasai,...... 

Samaneh ha 50-80lb (sarreh jangi zeer 5lb) ta samaneh ha 300lb ba sarreh jang 30lb-50lb

Ean cheezi neest ke betoneh jayeh moshak cruise o begeareh vali choon nesbatan arzoon e va dar size ha e koocheek benzene zeyadi estefadeh nemekoneh behtarreen samanast barayeh bord kotah ba sarreh jangi kochak

Bacheh ha e sarreh marz metonan zood az paygahha kochak ya az posht e yeh vanet ean ro havva konan barayeh hamleh be takfeeri ha, barayeh poshteeboni nazdeek as afrad,..... 

ean mazziyateh asleesh ean e keh arzooneh, nesbat be toop o rocket (ba hamoon bord) sabook tarreh va hamlesh va partobesh az nazareh haml o naghl rahattareh va anvaa o aghsomeh amaleyat ha e mokhtalef o metoneh anjom bedeh!


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## mse21

خدا لعنت کنه صداوسیمارو


WordsMatter said:


> expected to believe the garbage


NO ONE EXPECTED you to believe anything
really you are not important at all



WordsMatter said:


> I feel really sorry for Iranian people


we dont need that
-----
that is a cheap student project maybe cost just 20$
and you extracted this from it?!!



WordsMatter said:


> pure BS, corruption, waste, deceit and stupidity. Anyone wants to argue against skepticism when it comes to IRI's pronouncements?! These people lie half the time, exaggerate the other half and we are expected to believe the garbage they spew. I feel really sorry for Iranian people whose treasure is being pillaged by these lying, conniving bastards.


with one students project?!

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## VEVAK

WordsMatter said:


> Here's something to ponder: the head of IRGC-ASF unveiled achievement of Basiji villagers in Mazandaran province, and shows off a guided missile. The joke is it was wired up as shown in the pictures below. Now that's what I call pure BS, corruption, waste, deceit and stupidity. Anyone wants to argue against skepticism when it comes to IRI's pronouncements?! These people lie half the time, exaggerate the other half and we are expected to believe the garbage they spew. I feel really sorry for Iranian people whose treasure is being pillaged by these lying, conniving bastards.
> 
> View attachment 416808



yea it was flying funny! I get it now a true Fly by wire system! LOL!

These people are part of the Basij and it seems they didn't really build anything or if they did they didn't show it! so why the head of the IRGC would go there IDK! It doesn't really make any sense! Maybe they were claiming that they built something and they were trying to get funding for it & they got busted when the head of the IRGC showed up with cameras IDK! But it's a JOKE & it's even more embarrassing than when Ahmadinejad showed up for the F-313 mockup!

IRGC is mostly self funded because the cash they get from the government is chump change for them compared to their own yearly income and they aren't going to hand out money to anyone unless they have something real!


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## mse21

VEVAK said:


> arzoon bodan


من جواب اینو دادم
شما یه سرچ بکن همیشه راه ارزونتر از موتور پالس جت فوق العاده پرمصرف هست
پهپاد های لوکاست رو دیدی چجوری هستن؟
و قیمت پایین تولید راحت کاربری اسون دارین
*میدونستی تو سوریه یکی مشابهش رو نیروها گرفت؟*
یه سرچ بزن
میشه باموتورهای پیستونی فوقالعاده کوچیک و کم مصرف هم درستش کردکه خیلی کم حجمتر درمیاد اصولا شما وقتی صحبت از روش حمله پرتعداد میکنی باید حجم کلی قیمت و ایناشم در نظر داشته باشی
اونم موتوری مثل موتور پالس که سوخت زیادی میخوره و همینطور جای زیادی برای پرتاب نیاز داره







لانچرش نگاه کن
موتور پالس جت اصلا تو این اندازه در نمیاد و همچین لانچری نمیشه برای حجم بزرگش توسعه داد

@ vevak
khoda nagzare ke faghat maye estehza mishan
hamin moonde bood in nekbat biad inja behemoon bekhande






اینو حتی میشه ضد رادار و یا نسخه اپتیکی انفجاری برای برخی مقاصد ازش درست کرد
مثلا خودشو بزنه تو فرماندهی پدافند یا خود ردار با اپتیک


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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> خدا لعنت کنه صداوسیمارو
> 
> NO ONE EXPECTED you to believe anything
> really you are not important at all
> 
> 
> we dont need that
> -----
> that is a cheap student project maybe cost just 20$
> and you extracted this from it?!!
> 
> 
> with one students project?!



Vagheaan khoda lanateshoon koneh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Takhseer e Hajizadeh ham hast! Ean cheh vazesheh! Rosta e moshaki o do teetr dar Farsnews darbareh ean maskharehbozi ha!

Ean cheh aberoo reezi e!

















Mesleh ean keh Basiji ha e ean rosta yeh Video ferestadan be Farmondeh ha e Sepah toosh seem ha ro ghayem kardan keh az sepah pool begearan bad Chand rooz bad Hajizadeh pashodeh ba seda o sema rafteh onja o hamehchee ghar ghati shodeh o eanam bejayeh ean keh sonsoor konan yejoor degheh peechondanesh


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## mse21

shoma shirazi hasti?


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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> من جواب اینو دادم
> شما یه سرچ بکن همیشه راه ارزونتر از موتور پالس جت فوق العاده پرمصرف هست
> پهپاد های لوکاست رو دیدی چجوری هستن؟
> و قیمت پایین تولید راحت کاربری اسون دارین
> *میدونستی تو سوریه یکی مشابهش رو نیروها گرفت؟*
> یه سرچ بزن
> میشه باموتورهای پیستونی فوقالعاده کوچیک و کم مصرف هم درستش کردکه خیلی کم حجمتر درمیاد اصولا شما وقتی صحبت از روش حمله پرتعداد میکنی باید حجم کلی قیمت و ایناشم در نظر داشته باشی
> اونم موتوری مثل موتور پالس که سوخت زیادی میخوره و همینطور جای زیادی برای پرتاب نیاز داره
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> لانچرش نگاه کن
> موتور پالس جت اصلا تو این اندازه در نمیاد و همچین لانچری نمیشه برای حجم بزرگش توسعه داد
> 
> @ vevak
> khoda nagzare ke faghat maye estehza mishan
> hamin moonde bood in nekbat biad inja behemoon bekhande
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> اینو حتی میشه ضد رادار و یا نسخه اپتیکی انفجاری برای برخی مقاصد ازش درست کرد
> مثلا خودشو بزنه تو فرماندهی پدافند یا خود ردار با اپتیک



Baleh eanjooreesh ham lazem doreem laken moshkeleh ean samaneh kamboodeh soraateh va zeddeh bolgard nemetoni estefadeh koni

You also need a larger and more advanced and expensive lithium ion battery that can not only power your Blushless electric motor for 90 minutes but also power all your electronics & your detonator! To mass produce for Iran the engine and gas would be cheaper and easier than that battery & motor that can last that long

And 70mph is as fast as a car which limits the type of operation they can be used for and makes them easier targets for AAA systems because they are slower



mse21 said:


> shoma shirazi hasti?



Qom o Tehran! Hardo madarbozorgam Qom bedonya omadan vali baghiyeh Tehran...


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## mse21

"doreem"
bekhater hamina goftam!


VEVAK said:


> Baleh eanjooreesh ham lazem doreem laken moshkeleh ean samaneh kamboodeh soraateh va zeddeh bolgard nemetoni estefadeh koni


mitooneh porsoraat azash sakhte beshe


VEVAK said:


> You also need a larger and more advanced and expensive lithium ion battery that can not only power your Blushless electric motor for 90 minutes but also power all your electronics & your detonator! To mass produce for Iran the engine and gas would be cheaper and easier than that battery & motor that can last that long


be nazar man motor electronici sade tar kam hazine tare TA MOTOR GAZI. ye motor gazi ghematesh had aghal 10 barabar ye motor electgrici sade ast. rahattar ham dakheli saz mishe.
omr bishtari ham dare kama inke mitoni ba ye gire ghollab ya chizi moshabeh dobare bigiri va bazyabish koni


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## VEVAK

mse21 said:


> "doreem"
> bekhater hamina goftam!
> 
> mitooneh porsoraat azash sakhte beshe
> 
> be nazar man motor electronici sade tar kam hazine tare TA MOTOR GAZI. ye motor gazi ghematesh had aghal 10 barabar ye motor electgrici sade ast. rahattar ham dakheli saz mishe.
> omr bishtari ham dare kama inke mitoni ba ye gire ghollab ya chizi moshabeh dobare bigiri va bazyabish koni



Mesleh yavapaymaha e RC on ha ro ham mitono boz sozi koni!
Motoreh Pulse Jet as sokhtan e botteri lithiumi rahattar va arzoontar e va benzeeneh lazem barayeh samaneh ha e 50lb-300lb Pulsejet as yek brushless electric motor engine arzoontar
We are talking about enough Gas to fill a motorcycle or a small car inside Iran $5-$15

hobby shop prices just to compare






And a simple lithium battery from a Hobby shop runs for





You'll need 3 or more of these for 90 minutes flight time let alone other electronics

vs





So trust me pulsejet would be a lot easer & cheaper for Iran to mass produce than electric


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## mse21

VEVAK said:


> 50lb-300lb


این میتونه فقط خودشو سوختشو بلند کنه ایونیکش رو کجاش بذاریمی
البته یه چجیزی هستا
شما داری رو کدوم تایپ از بی سرنشین های با تعداد بالا صحبت میکین
رو لوکاست؟


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## Muhammed45

@mse21 @VEVAK 
Guys! I wonder what are talking about?
That student missile is nothing but a good achievement for some villager students. Actually they have built it with zero financial and technological support. Yea it is weak and not a considerable achievement but there is a truth with it, Iran's missile program has become a part of the country's culture insofar as some villager boys can build some of weaker versions of them. 
And what did you expect from General Hajizadeh? 
I guess you wanted him to tell those kids, hey damned idiots! what the fuk is this you have built? It is garbage, rubbish, waste of money .... etc while no one neither IRGC has asked/supported them in it's production phases or to produce it!!!???? 
He just encouraged them, and i say thank you general. Those kids can be the future Tehrani Moqaddam who , in his first days of studying missiles, failed to build a 10-30 Km rocket!!! but in the final days of his life, he wanted to put satellites in GEO orbit!

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## mse21

mohammad45 said:


> Guys! I wonder what are talking about?


بچه اصلا نگاه تیترکن
موشکیه اومدیم پهپادی حرف میزنیم!!!!
هیچکی هم حواسیش نیست!!!
هههههههههههههه

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## Cthulhu

VEVAK said:


> If it didn't have Fly-By-Wire it wouldn't have a guidance system even if the missile was guided by regular RC type remote control it would still be considered a fly by wire guidance because there is no pilot for it to be anything other than that!!!
> 
> I would recommend them to base their power plant on a pulsejet engine with a much smaller Airframe Iranian RC hobbyist make the engines in Iran it's not complicated at all that's why it would be important to know what type of guidance they've used


Fly-by-wire controlling system:


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## Beny Karachun

Cthulhu said:


> Fly-by-wire controlling system:


That's no fly by wire system, don't be pathetic, the wire is clearly ahead of the missile, not only behind

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## Muhammed45

Beny Karachun said:


> That's no fly by wire system, don't be pathetic, the wire is clearly ahead of the missile, not only behind


We will send them to Gaza and there you can meet it's fly by wire system.


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## Cthulhu

Beny Karachun said:


> That's no fly by wire system, don't be pathetic, the wire is clearly ahead of the missile, not only behind


Fly-by-wire here means the missile flies by a wire, It flies thanks to a wire, If it wasn't for that wire it couldn't fly.


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## SOHEIL

Guys ... 

Just let it go !

One of those awkward moments ...

But you know what's more awkward !?

Those people who trying to undermine Iran's capabilities because of this stupid moment !!!

.
.
.

If you know what I mean ...









Cthulhu said:


> Fly-by-wire here means the missile flies by a wire, It flies thanks to a wire, If it wasn't for that wire it couldn't fly.

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## mse21

Cthulhu said:


> Fly-by-wire controlling system:



man bemiram jelo gharibe khodemoono maskhare nakonid
rooshoon baz mishe


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## Beny Karachun

Cthulhu said:


> Fly-by-wire here means the missile flies by a wire, It flies thanks to a wire, If it wasn't for that wire it couldn't fly.


Fly by wire means the missile is GUIDED by through a wire, by the operator, like the TOW, here is an example:




No wire ahead of the missile, no wire hitting the target. What you did was literally walk to the target, attach a wire to it, and attach a missile to the wire


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## mse21

Cthulhu said:


> Fly-by-wire controlling system:



man bemiram jelo gharibe khodemoono maskhare nakonid
rooshoon baz mishe


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## Beny Karachun

mohammad45 said:


> We will send them to Gaza and there you can meet it's fly by wire system.


I think we won't let them attach a wire on our tanks through the border


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## SOHEIL

Beny Karachun said:


> Fly by wire means the missile is GUIDED by through a wire, by the operator, like the TOW, here is an example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wire ahead of the missile, no wire hitting the target. What you did was literally walk to the target, attach a wire to it, and attach a missile to the wire



Are you seriously doing this discussion !?

He is making fun of that ... Probably you have no sense of humor !!!

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## Beny Karachun

SOHEIL said:


> Are you seriously doing this discussion !?
> 
> He is making fun of that ... Probably you have no sense of humor !!!


He makes no sign of Sarcasm, which could make you mistake it for stupidity
You are forgetting we are chatting and not talking


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## SOHEIL

mse21 said:


> man bemiram jelo gharibe khodemoono maskhare nakonid
> rooshoon baz mishe



من 6 ساله اینجا هستم ... و 6 سال هست که وضعیت همین هست

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## Cthulhu

Beny Karachun said:


> Fly by wire means the missile is GUIDED by through a wire, by the operator, like the TOW, here is an example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wire ahead of the missile, no wire hitting the target. What you did was literally walk to the target, attach a wire to it, and attach a missile to the wire


Look i'm being sarcastic, What i wrote is a sarcasm. Should i explicitly say "It's a sarcasm" for you to understand the sarcasm?!

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## Cthulhu

mse21 said:


> man bemiram jelo gharibe khodemoono maskhare nakonid
> rooshoon baz mishe


داداش ما خیلی وقته مضحکه عالم و آدمیم. شما هم کم کم عادت می کنی


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## Fafnir

Cthulhu said:


> Look i'm being sarcastic, What i wrote is a sarcasm. Should i explicitly say "It's a sarcasm" for you to understand the sarcasm?!


Hes a zionist so he only laughs at things that involve palestinians being blown up.
Personally I always find its better to be on the safe side and either put [lol!] or next to a humorous comment because otherwise theres virtually always guaranteed to be some really,really dumb sh1t out there,like beny for instance,who`ll actually think you`re serious.

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## WordsMatter

mse21 said:


> man bemiram jelo gharibe khodemoono maskhare nakonid
> rooshoon baz mishe


This is not about making fun of Iran, per your Farsi comment. This is about making grandiose, yet false claims and lying to your countrymen. There is no need for IRI's national TV to lie about something as trivial as this (they went through the trouble of sending reporters, sound engineers, returned the footage to a studio, edited the video, and created a completely false report). The question you need to ask yourself is "why" would they do that? Give me one good reason that was necessary. I am not the one against Iran, the person who came up with that idea clearly is. In this day and age every lie eventually comes out. Remember Edward Snowden? 
Also, when did you guys abandon the truth for "saving face"?


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## Muhammed45

WordsMatter said:


> This is not about making fun of Iran, per your Farsi comment. This is about making grandiose, yet false claims and lying to your countrymen. There is no need for IRI's national TV to lie about something as trivial as this (they went through the trouble of sending reporters, sound engineers, returned the footage to a studio, edited the video, and created a completely false report). The question you need to ask yourself is "why" would they do that? Give me one good reason that was necessary. I am not the one against Iran, the person who came up with that idea clearly is. In this day and age every lie eventually comes out. Remember Edward Snowden?
> Also, when did you guys abandon the truth for "saving face"?


And who cares about your ideas pathetic troll?
Go back to your mama's hug kid! this is so far away from home

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## WordsMatter

mohammad45 said:


> And who cares about your ideas pathetic troll?
> Go back to your mama's hug kid! this is so far away from home


You keep referring me as a troll to no avail. I actually enjoy reading about IRI's achievements (some real and some imaginary). At least I have all my faculties in check to be skeptical of IRI's claims until they are verified, unlike some here who believe whatever that is spewed by IRI. BTW, is "go back to your mama's hug kid!" supposed to be an insult? Not sure I get the insult.


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## Muhammed45

WordsMatter said:


> BTW, is "go back to your mama's hug kid!" supposed to be an insult? Not sure I get the insult.


No, just an advice for a lorn kid! LOL
I didn't enjoy Most of your comments, as a person who is undermining and trolling you know!
Well, we shall see


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## Blue In Green

WordsMatter said:


> This is not about making fun of Iran, per your Farsi comment. This is about making grandiose, yet false claims and lying to your countrymen. There is no need for IRI's national TV to lie about something as trivial as this (they went through the trouble of sending reporters, sound engineers, returned the footage to a studio, edited the video, and created a completely false report). The question you need to ask yourself is "why" would they do that? Give me one good reason that was necessary. I am not the one against Iran, the person who came up with that idea clearly is. In this day and age every lie eventually comes out. Remember Edward Snowden?
> Also, when did you guys abandon the truth for "saving face"?



On the side of the Iranians from their point of view, logically this stunt served the purpose of giving rural area citizens a voice and acknowledging their efforts however shoddy they may look.

Taken from this point of view, sending a high ranking member of the IRGC gives these people respect and hope no matter how "stupid" their little project was in hindsight. It's actually quite humble.

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## VEVAK

mohammad45 said:


> @mse21 @VEVAK
> Guys! I wonder what are talking about?
> That student missile is nothing but a good achievement for some villager students. Actually they have built it with zero financial and technological support. Yea it is weak and not a considerable achievement but there is a truth with it, Iran's missile program has become a part of the country's culture insofar as some villager boys can build some of weaker versions of them.
> And what did you expect from General Hajizadeh?
> I guess you wanted him to tell those kids, hey damned idiots! what the fuk is this you have built? It is garbage, rubbish, waste of money .... etc while no one neither IRGC has asked/supported them in it's production phases or to produce it!!!????
> He just encouraged them, and i say thank you general. Those kids can be the future Tehrani Moqaddam who , in his first days of studying missiles, failed to build a 10-30 Km rocket!!! but in the final days of his life, he wanted to put satellites in GEO orbit!



I'm sorry but I don't accept that!

He doesn't show up when Iranian Kids fly RC planes far more complicated built with their own money






These guys got some PVC pipe added some sheet metal for fixed fins made a mockup put it on a string and sent it towards a target and actually for people that age it's quite embarrassing if that's the best they could come up with!
They couldn't even do a simple youtube search to come up with a simple solid fuel design to be used as propellant





It's embarrassing!

And these are the future Tehrani Moghadams of Iran





This is what kids in middle school & high schools are doing & it's far more impressive than that









This is what some guy and his wife built with $100,000 USD (Cost of a luxury vehicle in Iran) the IRGC or IRIAF can build a UAV around it with internal weapons bay, build a larger jet engine version,....





Those are places where you go look for the next Tehrani Moghadam!

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## Fafnir

Heres a rather interesting pic from around 1998 showing a rather unique looking iranian tel.I wonder if this is locally manufactured or simply a modified older soviet or perhaps dprk tel chassis.

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## mse21

Cthulhu said:


> داداش ما خیلی وقته مضحکه عالم و آدمیم. شما هم کم کم عادت می کنی


laaghal khodemoon behtare khodmoon maskharee neakoonim
va be nazaret vaghti finglish neveshtam behtar nist finglish javab bedi ta in nekbat nafahme masale bein khodemoon chi boode?



WordsMatter said:


> This is not about making fun of Iran


i did not talk with you'did I?
the addressed person find out what i meant. and answered that (in a new comment). and definitely you are not in that place to talk like that (making fun).
*what ever it is. what ever going on here (iran) . its just our bussiness. period.*


WordsMatter said:


> This is not about making fun of Iran, per your Farsi comment. This is about making grandiose, yet false claims and lying to your countrymen. There is no need for IRI's national TV to lie about something as trivial as this (they went through the trouble of sending reporters, sound engineers, returned the footage to a studio, edited the video, and created a completely false report). The question you need to ask yourself is "why" would they do that? Give me *one good reason* that was necessary.* I am not the one against Iran*, *the person who came up with that idea clearly is*. In this day and age every lie eventually comes out. Remember Edward Snowden?
> Also, when did you guys abandon the truth for "saving face"?


1.for encourage them. and they did well
there is no bigger reason. this can change any destination.
2. i see
3.why should be? why you think like that? this idea was belong to some student and they paid attention to them.


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## WordsMatter

mse21 said:


> laaghal khodemoon behtare khodmoon maskharee neakoonim
> va be nazaret vaghti finglish neveshtam behtar nist finglish javab bedi ta in nekbat nafahme masale bein khodemoon chi boode?
> 
> 
> i did not talk with you'did I?
> the addressed person find out what i meant. and answered that (in a new comment). and definitely you are not in that place to talk like that (making fun).
> *what ever it is. what ever going on here (iran) . its just our bussiness. period.*
> 
> 1.for encourage them. and they did well
> there is no bigger reason. this can change any destination.
> 2. i see
> 3.why should be? why you think like that? this idea was belong to some student and they paid attention to them.


Grow up... and don't act like a child. What are you 5? There is no injury to you, your pride or your beloved IRI. If you don't want others to read your comments then send a private message. This is a forum for everyone to participate, learn, discuss and comment. Some folks on this forum act like they have a long ways to go to grow a pair, and accept differing POVs. What the hell... "i did not talk with you'did I?" what is that? A come back to silence dissent? Seriously? Boy that's daft.


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## AmirPatriot

Fafnir said:


> Heres a rather interesting pic from around 1998 showing a rather unique looking iranian tel.I wonder if this is locally manufactured or simply a modified older soviet or perhaps dprk tel chassis.


Judging by the heavy soviet influence I would guess DPRK.

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## mse21

WordsMatter said:


> Grow up... and don't act like a child. What are you 5? There is no injury to you, your pride or your beloved IRI. If you don't want others to read your comments then send a private message. This is a forum for everyone to participate, learn, discuss and comment. Some folks on this forum act like they have a long ways to go to grow a pair, and accept differing POVs. What the hell... "i did not talk with you'did I?" what is that? A come back to silence dissent? Seriously? Boy that's daft.


No answer! hah? And just turned discusion to blah blah blah about just one sentence!!! You asked me reasons.


WordsMatter said:


> There is no injury to you, your pride or your beloved IRI.


injury ?!
Of course. I know. like these


WordsMatter said:


> Now that's what I call pure BS, corruption, waste, deceit and stupidity.





WordsMatter said:


> I feel really sorry for Iranian people whose treasure is being pillaged by these lying, conniving bastards.





WordsMatter said:


> and we are expected to believe the garbage they spew.


I don’t understand really
is that supposed to be a real project?
All the whole things going on this. ALL OF THEM. Look what a beatifull comments you had.


WordsMatter said:


> This is not about making fun of Iran


Making fun? I degred it to be fun for real it was insulting.


WordsMatter said:


> If you don't want others to read your comments then send a private message. This is a forum for everyone to participate, learn, discuss and comment.





WordsMatter said:


> What the hell... "i did not talk with you'did I?" what is that? A come back to silence dissent? Seriously? Boy that's daft.


I don’t care who read them. Look why I _*quoted him.*_
seriusly look at my comments I’m talking about making fun of iran GENERALLY not in this situation. So it about general and of course you cannot answer me:


WordsMatter said:


> *This* is not about making fun of Iran


Why this?
did I mean this?
And


WordsMatter said:


> This is a forum for everyone to participate, learn, discuss and comment.


Yes but at first they must understand what other one said.
Not like you and your lame comment.


WordsMatter said:


> and accept differing POVs.


Ofcourse I can accept anyone’s but look at it. Judge yourself is your pov true? The answer is not important for me because I have my own pov and said that in this comment
Which definetly shows you cannot judge whole achivements with only *one project *some villager students performed. No one really don’t want to spend money on it. With all this what is the purpose of first comment? and secound one for defending it and changing the way to discussion about what should IRIB do! and then asking me reasons!!!


WordsMatter said:


> Grow up... and don't act like a child. What are you 5?


You know i think the only child here is you. Neglected ignorat one actually. Which in all his comments tried to make himself highlighted. Not only in this topic, all of them. And then says this to every person who talked aginst.
i have more for you but really makes me tired
---------
not important at all but im 27 yrs old doctor.

----------


WordsMatter said:


> No one asked you id**t.





WordsMatter said:


> *Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. *So true about you.


oh oh oh
look what you have done before
THIS IS A FROUM.
HAHAHAHAHAH!

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## PeeD

That TEL is an MAZ based Iranian one, not from 1998 but 1988 iirc.

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## Hindustani78

Newly-upgraded Sayyad-3 air defense missiles on display during an inauguration of its production line at an undisclosed location in Iran, according to official information released. — AFP






*TEHRAN* — Iran’s parliament on Sunday approved more than half a billion dollars in funding for the country’s missile program and foreign operations of the elite Revolutionary Guards in response to US sanctions.

It mandates the government to allocate an additional $260 million for the “development of the missile program” and the same amount to the Revolutionary Guards’ foreign operations wing role in Syria and Iraq.

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## yavar

*Iran DM Gen Hatami: We focused on increasing number missiles امیر حاتمی: بر افزایش کمیت موشک‌ها*





دشمن برای خنثی کردن توان موشکی به‌شدت در تلاش است/ بر افزایش کمیت موشک‌ها‌ متمرکز شد‌یم 
http://tn.ai/1490308


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## Draco.IMF

iran wanted to purchase south africans Umkhonto Surface to Air missiles, any news regarding it?
South Africa has applied to UNSC for the arm sale, UNSC must approve this deal, im not very optimistic ..


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## Dinky

Hindustani78 said:


> Newly-upgraded Sayyad-3 air defense missiles on display during an inauguration of its production line at an undisclosed location in Iran, according to official information released. — AFP
> 
> *TEHRAN* — Iran’s parliament on Sunday approved more than half a billion dollars in funding for the country’s missile program and foreign operations of the elite Revolutionary Guards in response to US sanctions.
> 
> It mandates the government to allocate an additional $260 million for the “development of the missile program” and the same amount to the Revolutionary Guards’ foreign operations wing role in Syria and Iraq.



Iran should of at least increased its spending by $1 billion, half a billion is too small, Iran already has a small military budget and Saudi Arabia has ordered over $100 billion of weapons from the US

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## Cthulhu

yavar said:


> *Iran DM Gen Hatami: We focused on increasing number missiles امیر حاتمی: بر افزایش کمیت موشک‌ها*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> دشمن برای خنثی کردن توان موشکی به‌شدت در تلاش است/ بر افزایش کمیت موشک‌ها‌ متمرکز شد‌یم
> http://tn.ai/1490308


ای بالا، این یکی هم که داره هی موشک موشک می کنه. خوشحال شدیم گفتیم یکی از ارتش اومده یه فکری به حال و روز نیروی هوایی می کنه که اینم می خواد باز موشک بسازه


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## mse21

Cthulhu said:


> ای بالا، این یکی هم که داره هی موشک موشک می کنه. خوشحال شدیم گفتیم یکی از ارتش اومده یه فکری به حال و روز نیروی هوایی می کنه که اینم می خواد باز موشک بسازه


نمیفروشن کاکام


Draco.IMF said:


> iran wanted to purchase south africans Umkhonto Surface to Air missiles, any news regarding it?


no news


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## 925boy

Dinky said:


> Iran should of at least increased its spending by $1 billion, half a billion is too small, Iran already has a small military budget and Saudi Arabia has ordered over $100 billion of weapons from the US


just like most other countries,Iran is probably lying abt its real defense spending.


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## yavar

Deputy commander of Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution Brigadier General Hossein Salami : "we still facing same difficulty in storage for our missiles quantity in rate that we producing ballistic missiles
سردار سلامی: ما در ذخیره سازی موشک ها با مشکل مکان مواجه هستیم

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> Deputy commander of Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution Brigadier General Hossein Salami : "we still facing same difficulty in storage for our missiles quantity in rate that we producing ballistic missiles
> سردار سلامی: ما در ذخیره سازی موشک ها با مشکل مکان مواجه هستیم



dig more tunnels and underground storage facilities...

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> Deputy commander of Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution Brigadier General Hossein Salami : "we still facing same difficulty in storage for our missiles quantity in rate that we producing ballistic missiles
> سردار سلامی: ما در ذخیره سازی موشک ها با مشکل مکان مواجه هستیم


This is actually reassuring. Iran is producing so many missiles its finding a hard time finding where to put them all.


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## Dinky

Draco.IMF said:


> dig more tunnels and underground storage facilities...


And do more missile testings, Iran's ballistic missiles should be the best of the best. Can't take any risks.

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## Cthulhu

mse21 said:


> نمیفروشن کاکام


می دونم ولی اینام خودشون هم اراده ای ندارن. این موشک که هی اینا می سازن فقط ارزش بازدارندگی داره ارزش عملیاتی چندانی که نداره، اگه جنگ بشه هواپیماس که به کار می خوره


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## Navigator

Draco.IMF said:


> iran wanted to purchase south africans Umkhonto Surface to Air missiles, any news regarding it?
> South Africa has applied to UNSC for the arm sale, UNSC must approve this deal, im not very optimistic ..



SAM missile can be sold without any restrictions


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## Blue In Green

Navigator said:


> SAM missile can be sold without any restrictions


US will find one.

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## Fafnir

Draco.IMF said:


> iran wanted to purchase south africans Umkhonto Surface to Air missiles, any news regarding it?
> South Africa has applied to UNSC for the arm sale, UNSC must approve this deal, im not very optimistic ..


Yes,I`m pretty dubious too as this whole rumor can be traced back to one story in an sa newspaper,in addition iran has pretty much all the new land based sam systems it needs,tho one possible use could be for the iranian navy as this system was originally designed for ships and retro fitting it probably wouldnt be that difficult and irans naval vessels do badly need a short range sam system so who knows


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## Stryker1982

Fafnir said:


> Yes,I`m pretty dubious too as this whole rumor can be traced back to one story in an sa newspaper,in addition iran has pretty much all the new land based sam systems it needs,tho one possible use could be for the iranian navy as this system was originally designed for ships and retro fitting it probably wouldnt be that difficult and irans naval vessels do badly need a short range sam system so who knows


You right, in the Iran has all the sam based systems it needs through domestic production. Unfortunetly, It seems like Irans airspace and sam deployements still leaves the country exposed as its a big country. Iran needs to pump money into expanding and serial production its air defences with all its domestic systems it builds to survive missile strikes from the U.S. I'm not sure Iran has such capacity at this moment. I honestly can't wait untill the Bavar-373 makes its first operational appearence.

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> You right, in the Iran has all the sam based systems it needs through domestic production. Unfortunetly, It seems like Irans airspace and sam deployements still leaves the country exposed as its a big country. Iran needs to pump money into expanding and serial production its air defences with all its domestic systems it builds to survive missile strikes from the U.S. I'm not sure Iran has such capacity at this moment. I honestly can't wait untill the Bavar-373 makes its first operational appearence.


This seems to be the best course of action that Iran could take. A country wide, large-scale serial production of a good indigenous SAM that can be produced and fielded in very large numbers in a short amount of time to further cement Iran's air defense architecture.


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## Draco.IMF

*SYRIA IS BUILDING MISSILE FACTORIES WITH IRANIAN INSPIRATION*

http://www.imagesatintl.com/isi-int...ilding-missile-factories-iranian-inspiration/


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## mse21

Cthulhu said:


> می دونم ولی اینام خودشون هم اراده ای ندارن. این موشک که هی اینا می سازن فقط ارزش بازدارندگی داره ارزش عملیاتی چندانی که نداره، اگه جنگ بشه هواپیماس که به کار می خوره


کسی ممکرش نیست
خوب وزیر قبلی هم رفت بخره اما ندادن اینم میشه تلاش و اراده دیگه
بیچاره سنگ رو یخ شد
چین هم که از خیلی وقت پیش گفته هواپیما به ایران نمیفروشم
قدرت ساخت هم که ماکزیمم در حد کوثره
پس چه کنیم؟


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## Draco.IMF

Draco.IMF said:


> *SYRIA IS BUILDING MISSILE FACTORIES WITH IRANIAN INSPIRATION*
> 
> http://www.imagesatintl.com/isi-int...ilding-missile-factories-iranian-inspiration/

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## Dinky

*Iran Defence Minister Gen Hatami: we will boost ballistic, cruise missile power امیر حاتمی : ارتقا قدرت موشکی*

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## Draco.IMF

I totally didnt get this news from 2015:

It loos like in 2015, during Syria war, an russian K-101 cruise missile "crashed" in Iran!
Lets hope Iranian engineers could work with it, the engine looks pretty good after crash...
The warhead is missing, looks like a "clear cut" ?

http://defence-blog.com/news/russian-kh-101-air-launched-cruise-missile-crash-in-iran.html

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## SOHEIL

Draco.IMF said:


> I totally didnt get this news from 2015:
> 
> It loos like in 2015, during Syria war, an russian K-101 cruise missile "crashed" in Iran!
> Lets hope Iranian engineers could work with it, the engine looks pretty good after crash...
> The warhead is missing, looks like a "clear cut" ?
> 
> http://defence-blog.com/news/russian-kh-101-air-launched-cruise-missile-crash-in-iran.html


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## WordsMatter

How significant is this picture?


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## SubWater

WordsMatter said:


> How significant is this picture?
> View attachment 420541


What this pic have with Iran ????
I really confused .
pls more info


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## SOHEIL

SubWater said:


> What this pic have with Iran ????
> I really confused .
> pls more info



Carbon fiber structure for solid fuel engine ...

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## SubWater

SOHEIL said:


> Carbon fiber structure for solid fuel engine ...


so, 
1.Is it result of dual cooperation?
2.Iran received technology from NK ?
3.NK received technology from Iran ?
4.choice 2 and 3 together ????

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## sobhan

SubWater said:


> so,
> 1.Is it result of dual cooperation?
> 2.Iran received technology from NK ?
> 3.NK received technology from Iran ?
> 4.choice 2 and 3 together ????


i think choice 4 is best choice

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## SOHEIL

SubWater said:


> so,
> 1.Is it result of dual cooperation?
> 2.Iran received technology from NK ?
> 3.NK received technology from Iran ?
> 4.choice 2 and 3 together ????



3



sobhan said:


> i think choice 4 is best choice



Impossible ...

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## Cthulhu

SubWater said:


> so,
> 1.Is it result of dual cooperation?
> 2.Iran received technology from NK ?
> 3.NK received technology from Iran ?
> 4.choice 2 and 3 together ????





sobhan said:


> i think choice 4 is best choice


http://www.entekhab.ir/fa/news/36374/ايران-به-جمع-10-کشور-توليد-کننده-الياف-کربن-پيوست

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## Muhammed45

SOHEIL said:


> Impossible

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## WordsMatter

Cthulhu said:


> http://www.entekhab.ir/fa/news/36374/ايران-به-جمع-10-کشور-توليد-کننده-الياف-کربن-پيوست


Is there evidence that IRI is also using Aramid fiber in her missiles? That would be a huge step forward for IRI.


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## Draco.IMF

Similar:

Topol-M body part production


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## PeeD

The "out of the air" filament woven missile casings of North Korea is a little suspicious.

Iran started with steel casings that lead to Fateh-110 finally and the moved to a larger diameter with the Sedjil.
Now since some 10 years after the Sejil, there is still no filament casing shown in Iran.

Either NKs had a sudden technology influx that propelled them to that technology. Or they got it from a experienced solid fuel developer that went a natural path.

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## Draco.IMF

PeeD said:


> The "out of the air" filament woven missile casings of North Korea is a little suspicious.
> 
> Iran started with steel casings that lead to Fateh-110 finally and the moved to a larger diameter with the Sedjil.
> Now since some 10 years after the Sejil, there is still no filament casing shown in Iran.
> 
> Either NKs had a sudden technology influx that propelled them to that technology. Or they got it from a experienced solid fuel developer that went a natural path.



or iran just not showing everything, i think this is the case
i dont believe that if North Korea has something, Iran dont have it also secretly..

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## Fafnir

PeeD said:


> The "out of the air" filament woven missile casings of North Korea is a little suspicious.
> 
> Iran started with steel casings that lead to Fateh-110 finally and the moved to a larger diameter with the Sedjil.
> Now since some 10 years after the Sejil, there is still no filament casing shown in Iran.
> 
> Either NKs had a sudden technology influx that propelled them to that technology. Or they got it from a experienced solid fuel developer that went a natural path.


Is the sejil program even still going?,there have been no new developments or unveilings,indeed one gets the impression that the program has either been quietly halted/scrapped or at the least indefinitely suspended.
As for the dprks new found composite/filament case motors the tech for these could also have been part of the haul of booty the dprk purchased from the post soviet weapons/tech fire sale back in the early 90s


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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> The "out of the air" filament woven missile casings of North Korea is a little suspicious.
> 
> Iran started with steel casings that lead to Fateh-110 finally and the moved to a larger diameter with the Sedjil.
> Now since some 10 years after the Sejil, there is still no filament casing shown in Iran.
> 
> Either NKs had a sudden technology influx that propelled them to that technology. Or they got it from a experienced solid fuel developer that went a natural path.



There was a recent article that said NK has gotten through the black market advanced solid fuel engines (through Russia or Ukraine) that have suddenly allowed it to experience the jump in technology it has experienced.

It is pretty suspicious that North Korea after all its missile failings with less sophisticated missiles suddenly starts making a functional advanced ICBM as well as MRBM.


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## mohsen

TheImmortal said:


> There was a recent article that said NK has gotten through the black market advanced solid fuel engines (through Russia or Ukraine) that have suddenly allowed it to experience the jump in technology it has experienced.
> 
> It is pretty suspicious that North Korea after all its missile failings with less sophisticated missiles suddenly starts making a functional advanced ICBM as well as MRBM.


and those so called failure reports by U.S aren't suspicious?!

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## Cthulhu

WordsMatter said:


> Is there evidence that IRI is also using Aramid fiber in her missiles? That would be a huge step forward for IRI.


I don't know.


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## SOHEIL

Fafnir said:


> Is the sejil program even still going?



LOL what!?



WordsMatter said:


> Is there evidence that IRI is also using Aramid fiber in her missiles? That would be a huge step forward for IRI.



This is one of the reasons behind increasing zulfaqar missiles range to 750 km !

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## AmirPatriot

SOHEIL said:


> LOL what!?


Well to be fair, we have not heard anything about Sejjil for years.


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## SOHEIL

AmirPatriot said:


> Well to be fair, we have not heard anything about Sejjil for years.



It doesn't mean the project is dead ...

Next generations not unveiled yet !

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## yavar



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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


>



@yavar - 2 questions:

1)

What is the CEP of the Shahab-2 with new guidance?

2)

How is it possible to use land attack cruise missiles like Ya-Ali or Soumar with high precision without satellites, Iran doesnt have them.
Cruise Missiles without Satellite guidance, with good precision, how is that a solution for Iran?
I hear Cruise missiles without satellites are useless.

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> 1)What is the CEP of the Shahab-2 with new guidance?



not much but Emad or Zolfaghar or .......... have 3 to 5 meter CEP



Draco.IMF said:


> 2)How is it possible to use land attack cruise missiles like Ya-Ali



Ya-Ali is guided it use guided system,which ..................

[MEDIA=youtube]PlGQIuJPgDA[/MEDIA]
[ATTACH=full]421062[/ATTACH]



Draco.IMF said:


> Soumar missile with high precision .



i wish if they did release images it kinetic impact so you can see high precision,
Soumar uses multiple system for guidance

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## Aspahbod

Draco.IMF said:


> I hear Cruise missiles without satellites are useless.



One can use TERCOM with terminal optical/IR to accurately guide a cruise missile. Many cruise missiles use the former but the latter is needed if you want proper target recognition. It also needs the aerial radar maps of the whole route and it cannot be used in routes where there is little distinguishing topographical features (e.g. flat deserts). But it is an accurate guidance system that is independent of satellite positioning and can still be used alongside them as backup.

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## Hack-Hook

Aspahbod said:


> One can use TERCOM with terminal optical/IR to accurately guide a cruise missile. Many cruise missiles use the former but the latter is needed if you want proper target recognition. It also needs the aerial radar maps of the whole route and it cannot be used in routes where there is little distinguishing topographical features (e.g. flat deserts). But it is an accurate guidance system that is independent of satellite positioning and can still be used alongside them as backup.


you can also use many other things like star-maps and communication tower


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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> not much but Emad or Zolfaghar or .......... have 3 to 5 meter CEP
> 
> 
> Ya-Ali is guided it use guided system,which ..................
> 
> [MEDIA=youtube]PlGQIuJPgDA[/MEDIA]
> [ATTACH=full]421062[/ATTACH]
> 
> 
> i wish if they did release images it kinetic impact so you can see high precision,
> Soumar uses multiple system for guidance




Emad at 1600km has a CEP of 500 meters not 50! Not 5! But 500 meters! And with Ballistic missiles that means 1 out of 2 will land within 500 meters of the target!
That means Iran can target large facilities like power plants & sections of an Air Base or a Naval port but they can not target individual buildings or bunkers with it!
Zolfaghar & Fatteh Class missiles at 300-700km have a CEP of 50 meters! that means you can target large buildings, runways,... But you will not be able to successfully take out a heavily fortified Aircraft bunker. Now you can disrupt Air operations and damage some aircrafts but to take out the bunker it's self you'll need a CEP of 7 meters or less with a good size warhead
Now the Zolfaghar & Fatteh class have the potential of being upgraded with an additional counter imaging terminal phase like the Persian Gulf missile but they will be expensive

I think it would make more sense if Iran used a volley of Ballistic Missiles to disrupt Air Operations and go after larger Radar systems & then use cruise missiles & UCAV's to individually target buildings and bunkers.

*Also, any GPS based Missiles or UAV's will be useless if war breaks out*! Those systems can be turned off with a push of a button & worse yet they can be tracked before they are even launched &* the nonsense that Israeli General is talking about is nothing more than misinformation to try to get Iran to use those systems for guidance!*

Putting those GPS systems on your missiles is a grave mistake & it will allow the U.S. to track and locate every missile & UAV you have and find their bunkers! This is nothing more than misinformation & I hope Iran is not deluded enough to use them on any of their missiles! And yes you can have a few of your systems based on those GPS systems for anti-terrorist operations during peace time!


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## ashool

VEVAK said:


> Emad at 1600km has a CEP of 500 meters not 50! Not 5! But 500 meters! And with Ballistic missiles that means 1 out of 2 will land within 500 meters of the target!
> That means Iran can target large facilities like power plants & sections of an Air Base or a Naval port but they can not target individual buildings or bunkers with it!
> Zolfaghar & Fatteh Class missiles at 300-700km have a CEP of 50 meters! that means you can target large buildings, runways,... But you will not be able to successfully take out a heavily fortified Aircraft bunker. Now you can disrupt Air operations and damage some aircrafts but to take out the bunker it's self you'll need a CEP of 7 meters or less with a good size warhead
> Now the Zolfaghar & Fatteh class have the potential of being upgraded with an additional counter imaging terminal phase like the Persian Gulf missile but they will be expensive
> 
> I think it would make more sense if Iran used a volley of Ballistic Missiles to disrupt Air Operations and go after larger Radar systems & then use cruise missiles & UCAV's to individually target buildings and bunkers.
> 
> *Also, any GPS based Missiles or UAV's will be useless if war breaks out*! Those systems can be turned off with a push of a button & worse yet they can be tracked before they are even launched &* the nonsense that Israeli General is talking about is nothing more than misinformation to try to get Iran to use those systems for guidance!*
> 
> Putting those GPS systems on your missiles is a grave mistake & it will allow the U.S. to track and locate every missile & UAV you have and find their bunkers! This is nothing more than misinformation & I hope Iran is not deluded enough to use them on any of their missiles! And yes you can have a few of your systems based on those GPS systems for anti-terrorist operations during peace time!


Where did you get this information and you have no flag
if your information is from west side go and rub ...... its iranian room and please use iranian information

http://www.aparat.com/v/q2Scy/تست_موشک_جدید_بالستیک_عماد_(کیفیت_بالا)

maybe you source is wikii the child information

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## Stryker1982

ashool said:


> Where did you get this information and you have no flag
> if your information is from west side go and rub ...... its iranian room and please use iranian information
> 
> http://www.aparat.com/v/q2Scy/تست_موشک_جدید_بالستیک_عماد_(کیفیت_بالا)
> 
> maybe you source is wikii the child information



Vevak is a long time and respected member of this room, you should be careful calling him a fool, he knows alot more than you do. Though I thought it was widely believed to be 150 cep


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## Fafnir

VEVAK said:


> Emad at 1600km has a CEP of 500 meters not 50! Not 5! But 500 meters! And with Ballistic missiles that means 1 out of 2 will land within 500 meters of the target!
> That means Iran can target large facilities like power plants & sections of an Air Base or a Naval port but they can not target individual buildings or bunkers with it!
> Zolfaghar & Fatteh Class missiles at 300-700km have a CEP of 50 meters! that means you can target large buildings, runways,... But you will not be able to successfully take out a heavily fortified Aircraft bunker. Now you can disrupt Air operations and damage some aircrafts but to take out the bunker it's self you'll need a CEP of 7 meters or less with a good size warhead
> Now the Zolfaghar & Fatteh class have the potential of being upgraded with an additional counter imaging terminal phase like the Persian Gulf missile but they will be expensive
> 
> I think it would make more sense if Iran used a volley of Ballistic Missiles to disrupt Air Operations and go after larger Radar systems & then use cruise missiles & UCAV's to individually target buildings and bunkers.
> 
> *Also, any GPS based Missiles or UAV's will be useless if war breaks out*! Those systems can be turned off with a push of a button & worse yet they can be tracked before they are even launched &* the nonsense that Israeli General is talking about is nothing more than misinformation to try to get Iran to use those systems for guidance!*
> 
> Putting those GPS systems on your missiles is a grave mistake & it will allow the U.S. to track and locate every missile & UAV you have and find their bunkers! This is nothing more than misinformation & I hope Iran is not deluded enough to use them on any of their missiles! And yes you can have a few of your systems based on those GPS systems for anti-terrorist operations during peace time!



I dont know where you`re getting this 500m cep from as frankly I doubt that even the non emad warhead equipped ghidirs/shahab 3 using the old triconic warheads would have a cep that abysmal,in fact I would think that even their ceps would probably be less that half that at worst.To put this in perspective lets look at a roughly equivalent system to the emad the pershing 2,this medium ranged missile also used a terminally guided marv warhead to achieve a cep of around 30m,however this was done using mid 1970s technology so I would think that its probably very likely that iran could well have improved upon this thanks to the benefits of over 40+ years worth of technological development and advancements since then,I would think that at a minimum you`re looking at an accuracy of potentially at least 30m if not considerably better in fact and even with a cep of "only" 30m this would still allow you to have a very credible shot at targeting the larger hardened aircraft shelters such as the dual hanger types.
GPS receivers dont transmit they are passive so the idea that the us could somehow track you via a gps receiver in your weapons ins is very unlikely but I suppose there could always be the remote possibility of a back door installed in civilian receivers,also altho in theory the us could turn off the civilian gps signals in practice this would likely cause enormous problems and disruption just because of how many things there are that rely upon these systems in todays world,altho one possibility would be to shut down coverage over one geographical area,however this wouldnt affect other positioning systems like he existing glonass or the up and coming beidou or Galileo systems so the best option would be to use two or three of these positioning systems in your weapons and to make very sure that you had good backups if these are unreliable or unavailable as using just gps or indeed any positioning system as your weapons sole form of guidance system would be very,very unwise. .

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## ashool

Stryker1982 said:


> Vevak is a long time and respected member of this room, you should be careful calling him a fool, he knows alot more than you do. Though I thought it was widely believed to be 150 cep


how you know that he know first 2 i dont call him fool but you and your cep is not right too go and see clip and time of flight and hit target

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## VEVAK

ashool said:


> Where did you get this information and you have no flag
> if your information is from west side go and rub ...... its iranian room and please use iranian information
> 
> http://www.aparat.com/v/q2Scy/تست_موشک_جدید_بالستیک_عماد_(کیفیت_بالا)
> 
> maybe you source is wikii the child information



What do you think that video proves?

My source is Iran's Defense Minister! And the info was published on Farsnews!

You have no source! Just wishes and dreams! And the notion that hitting a target with a 500 meter cep at 1600km with a ballistic missile at Iran's technical capabilities is somehow easy is only in your head! And it's disrespectful to the kids that worked hard to get to that accuracy using a ballistic missile without any access to various sat systems or the permission to launch as many tests as they want!


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## Muhammed45

VEVAK said:


> Emad at 1600km has a CEP of 500 meters not 50! Not 5! But 500 meters! And with Ballistic missiles that means 1 out of 2 will land within 500 meters of the target!
> That means Iran can target large facilities like power plants & sections of an Air Base or a Naval port but they can not target individual buildings or bunkers with it!
> Zolfaghar & Fatteh Class missiles at 300-700km have a CEP of 50 meters! that means you can target large buildings, runways,... But you will not be able to successfully take out a heavily fortified Aircraft bunker. Now you can disrupt Air operations and damage some aircrafts but to take out the bunker it's self you'll need a CEP of 7 meters or less with a good size warhead
> Now the Zolfaghar & Fatteh class have the potential of being upgraded with an additional counter imaging terminal phase like the Persian Gulf missile but they will be expensive
> 
> I think it would make more sense if Iran used a volley of Ballistic Missiles to disrupt Air Operations and go after larger Radar systems & then use cruise missiles & UCAV's to individually target buildings and bunkers.
> 
> *Also, any GPS based Missiles or UAV's will be useless if war breaks out*! Those systems can be turned off with a push of a button & worse yet they can be tracked before they are even launched &* the nonsense that Israeli General is talking about is nothing more than misinformation to try to get Iran to use those systems for guidance!*
> 
> Putting those GPS systems on your missiles is a grave mistake & it will allow the U.S. to track and locate every missile & UAV you have and find their bunkers! This is nothing more than misinformation & I hope Iran is not deluded enough to use them on any of their missiles! And yes you can have a few of your systems based on those GPS systems for anti-terrorist operations during peace time!


FYI for positioning in both cruise and ballistic fields, we are using LPS and other systems. Look at this 
توسعه ال پی اس ایرانی با فناوری‌های مدرن بومی

بر اساس خبری که روز چهارشنبه توسط وزارت دفاع کشورمان اعلام شد سامانه ملی هدی یا همان ال پی اس ایرانی مرحله جدیدی از فعالیت خود را آغاز کرده است. طبق این خبر، دانشگاه صنعتی مالک اشتر وابسته به وزارت دفاع موفق شده در فاز جاری، فرستنده یک مگاواتی بومی با فناوری نیم سیکل را طراحی کند و بسازد و در آینده با استقرار 5 ایستگاه فرستنده پر قدرت در نقاط مناسب کشور، امکان ارائه خدمات موقعیت یابی ناوبری و زمان سنجی با استانداردهای جهانی و بصورت ملی بوجود خواهد آمد.

ساخت فرستنده‌های پر قدرت یک مگاوات در داخل کشور آنهم توسط متخصصان دفاعی، این تضمین را ایجاد می‌کند که در صورت نیاز به این سامانه در هر شرایط خاص و مهم، فعالیت‌های آن تضمین شده و غیرقابل اخلال خواهد بود که این خوداتکایی، نقش مهمی در براورده کردن نیازهای نیروهای مسلح دارد.






رونمایی از فرستنده یک مگاوات سامانه موقعیت یاب ملی

به گزارش مشرق، در سال 1389 اولین مرحله از این سامانه ملی در خشکی به بهره‌برداری رسید و هدف از اجرای این مرحله تولید تصحیحات آنی برای کاربران GPS در سطح خشکی بوده بطوری که قادر به موقعیت‌یابی دقیق لحظه‌ای با دقت تضمین شده باشند.

از مهمترین فعالیت‌های صورت گرفته در این مرحله توسعه ایستگاه‌های دائمی به منظور جمع آوری و پایش اطلاعات ماهواره‌های GPS ، توسعه نرم افزار مدلسازی خطاهای GPS و تولید اطلاعات لازم به منظور بهبود دقت و اعلام هشدار به کاربران و توسعه نرم افزار مدیریت، کنترل و ارسال تصحیحات GPS به کاربران بود. در واقع هدی برای کاهش خطای حدوداً 30 متری سامانه جی پی اس در ایران به حدود یک متر و به صورت بی‌درنگ (Realtime) آماده شده بود.

در نتیجه ساخت سامانه هدی ضمن خدمات دهی به تعداد بسیار زیادی کاربر، دقت مکان‌یابی به صورت آنی تا شعاع 30 کیلومتری ایستگاه بالغ بر چند سانتیمتر و تا شعاع 150 کیلومتری آن در حد یک متر است. این میزان بسیار بالای دقت، هم برای فعالیت های نظامی، امنیتی، پلیسی و هم برای امور غیرنظامی مانند توسعه خطوط لوله، راه سازی، سد سازی، ایجاد نقشه های جغرافیایی دقیق کاملاً کافی بوده و برای افزایش میزان پوشش در کشور نیز افزایش تعداد ایستگاه ها در دستور کار بوده است.

بر اساس اخباری که در سالهای قبل اعلام شده، در حوزه دریایی نیز سامانه مشابهی با نام خلیج فارس در حال توسعه بوده که از تعدادی ایستگاه های دائمی و احتمالا تعدادی ایستگاه موقتی بهره خواهد برد. این سامانه نیز برای کمک به پیشرفت سریعتر و بهتر در فعالیت های دریایی کشور از پروژه های نفت و گاز در دریا گرفته تا کمک به پهلو گرفتن دقیق کشتی ها در اسکله و البته کمک به مسیر یابی شناورها و سلاح های دریایی کمک شایانی خواهد نمود.

همچنین، قبلا اعلام شده بود که برنامه آتی سامانه ملی هدی ارائه خدمات ناوبری دقیق در آسمان ایران با توجه به استانداردهای بین المللی است که مورد استفاده تمامی هواپیماهای کشور در تمامی مراحل پروازی اعم از برخاستن، پرواز و فرود خواهد بود که در شب و به خصوص در شرایط بد آب و هوایی بسیار مفید است. به عبارت دیگر با اجرایی شدن این مرحله از طرح، امکان ناوبری ایمن برای پروازها فراهم می شود.

عملیات های پهپادهای ایرانی با "هدی" دقیق تر می شود

علاوه بر ناوبری هواپیماهای سرنشین دار انواع پهپادها نیز از خدمات این سامانه بهره مند خواهند شد و با استفاده از آن امکان تعیین مدار و تعیین موقعیت دقیق ماهواره های بومی که به فضا پرتاپ می شوند نیز میسر خواهد شد. به کمک این سامانه مباحث مدنظر پدافند غیرعامل برای مقابله با خطاهای عمدی در سامانه جی-پی-اس نیز مرتفع خواهد شد.

اما در کنار این سامانه وجود توانایی موقعیت یابی بر پایه تجهیزات مستقل و بومی نیز برای شرایطی که هیچ یک از سامانه های موقعیت یابی جهانی قابل استفاده نباشد لازم است. با توجه به محدودیت های مالی و فنی موجود در زمینه قرار دادن ماهواره های لازم برای ایجاد یک جی-پی-اس بومی، متخصصان کشور در حال ایجاد یک سامانه موقعیت یابی محلی (LPS) هستند.






این سامانه ضمن رفع نیاز کشور در داخل و خارج از مرزها در فواصل نزدیک، برخی مشکلات جی-پی-اس نظیر عدم پوشش مناسب در فضاهای بسته را نیز نخواهد داشت. همچنین از نظر بالا بودن دقت و نداشتن تأخیر زمانی محسوس نیز مطابق نیازهای کشور خواهد بود. سامانه ال-پی-اس از فناوری های نزدیک به سامانه هدی برخوردار است و بر پایه استفاده از آنتن‌های زمینی عمل می کند. با استفاده از آن مکان‌یابی اشیاء ثابت و متحرک مرتبط با سامانه با دقت بسیار بالا و به صورت آنی ممکن است.

ال-پی-اس به عنوان یک سامانه ناوبری اطلاعات موقعیتی را در هر شرایط آب و هوایی و در تمام نقاط محدوده تحت پوشش خود که در فضای تحت دید سه یا تعداد بیشتری ایستگاه باشد فراهم می کند. نوع خاص این سامانه به صورت بی درنگ(Realtime) اطلاعات موقعیتی اشیاء یا افراد را ردگیری می نماید. در این سامانه بر خلاف جی-پی-اس اتکایی به ماهواره ها وجود نداشته و ایستگاه‌های زمینی که دارای سامانه‌های لازم از جمله برای جهت‌یابی، محاسبه موقعیت و ارتباط امنِ بی‌سیم هستند نقش اصلی را بر عهده دارند. امروزه در کشورهای مختلفی از این سامانه به عنوان مکمل جی-پی-اس یا جایگزین در نقاطی که پوشش مناسبی از سوی آن وجود ندارد استفاده می شود.

ال-پی-اس می‌تواند همانند جی-پی-اس در هواپیما، بالگرد، کشتی و قایق، زیردریایی و خودروها به خصوص در انواع بدون سرنشین آن و همچنین در موشک‌های دورایستای کشور به کار آید.

هر چند ال-پی-اس محدودیت‌های خاص خود را دارد اما برای رفع نیاز فوری کشور به سامانه‌های دقیق مکان‌یابی در داخل و اطراف کشور بسیار لازم به نظر می‌رسد به خصوص در دریا که شاید بهترین محیط برای عملکرد چنین سامانه باشد. با بهره‌گیری از آن در صورت قطع امکان استفاده از جی-پی-اس و یا لزوم اختلال آن در منطقه‌ای از سوی کشورمان این سامانه به حفظ قابلیت عملکرد تجهیزات مختلف کشور کمک می‌کند.





مراحل نصب و برپایی آنتن سامانه موقعیت‌یاب ملی در تصویر مشخص است

با توجه به اینکه وزیر دفاع کشورمان نیز صریحا اعلام کرده است که با توجه به عدم کنترل بر روی دقت، کیفیت و کمیت خدمات جی پی اس و امکان قطع آن در مواقع بحرانی، ایجاد یک سیستم بومی با قابلیت اطمینان بالا و جایگزینی سریع اجتناب پذیر به نظر می‌رسد، لذا می‌توان ابراز خوشنودی کرد که متخصصان و فرماندهان نیروهای مسلح کشورمان دقیقا بر نقاط قوت و ضعف دشمن اشراف داشته و طرح‌های دفاعی بر مبنای نیازهای واقعی و نه نمایشی و شعاری جلو می‌رود.

همچنین با توجه به اینکه وزارت دفاع قصد دارد نسبت به استقرار 5 ایستگاه فرستنده پر قدرت در نقاط مناسب کشور اقدام کرده و امکان ارائه خدمات موقعیت‌یابی ناوبری و زمان سنجی بصورت ملی را بوجود آورد، ترکیب این ال پی اس با امکاناتی که قرار است از طریق شرکت صا ایران و با استفاده از فناوری‌های مربوط به سیستم مکان‌یاب ماهواره‌ای بیدو به ایران وارد شود، هدایت و فعالیت‌های نظامی و غیرنظامی کشورمان در داخل و مناطق هدف در خارج را بهتر و دقیق تر پیش خواهد برد.

توضیح کامل در مورد سیستم هدی
https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/273966/هدی-رسید-موشک-های-ایرانی-را-با-خیال-تخت-شلیک-کنید

Recently Iran is developing Quantum based positioning system too. 

Iran will also sign a contract with China to access BeiDuo. 
Maybe it is already happened :
http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/5361439/ایران-با-بیدو-به-حیاط-خلوت-ماهواره‌ای-آمریکا-می‌رود
http://www.cyberbannews.com/سامانه-ناوبری-فضایی-بیدو-وارد-ایران-می‌شود
https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/484711/تست-آن-لاین-و-معرفی-سامانه-ناوبری-بیدو-در-پنجم-آبان-ماه


You need to see the tests of our missiles especially Hormoz-1-2 also Khalije Fars missile and see their accuracy!. It is a God damn sniper

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Draco.IMF

in case of war I bet my *** the chinese will shut down BeiDuo.
how many times Chinese f...d over Iran? I stopped to count...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Stryker1982

mohammad45 said:


> FYI for positioning in both cruise and ballistic fields, we are using LPS and other systems. Look at this
> توسعه ال پی اس ایرانی با فناوری‌های مدرن بومی
> 
> بر اساس خبری که روز چهارشنبه توسط وزارت دفاع کشورمان اعلام شد سامانه ملی هدی یا همان ال پی اس ایرانی مرحله جدیدی از فعالیت خود را آغاز کرده است. طبق این خبر، دانشگاه صنعتی مالک اشتر وابسته به وزارت دفاع موفق شده در فاز جاری، فرستنده یک مگاواتی بومی با فناوری نیم سیکل را طراحی کند و بسازد و در آینده با استقرار 5 ایستگاه فرستنده پر قدرت در نقاط مناسب کشور، امکان ارائه خدمات موقعیت یابی ناوبری و زمان سنجی با استانداردهای جهانی و بصورت ملی بوجود خواهد آمد.
> 
> ساخت فرستنده‌های پر قدرت یک مگاوات در داخل کشور آنهم توسط متخصصان دفاعی، این تضمین را ایجاد می‌کند که در صورت نیاز به این سامانه در هر شرایط خاص و مهم، فعالیت‌های آن تضمین شده و غیرقابل اخلال خواهد بود که این خوداتکایی، نقش مهمی در براورده کردن نیازهای نیروهای مسلح دارد.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> رونمایی از فرستنده یک مگاوات سامانه موقعیت یاب ملی
> 
> به گزارش مشرق، در سال 1389 اولین مرحله از این سامانه ملی در خشکی به بهره‌برداری رسید و هدف از اجرای این مرحله تولید تصحیحات آنی برای کاربران GPS در سطح خشکی بوده بطوری که قادر به موقعیت‌یابی دقیق لحظه‌ای با دقت تضمین شده باشند.
> 
> از مهمترین فعالیت‌های صورت گرفته در این مرحله توسعه ایستگاه‌های دائمی به منظور جمع آوری و پایش اطلاعات ماهواره‌های GPS ، توسعه نرم افزار مدلسازی خطاهای GPS و تولید اطلاعات لازم به منظور بهبود دقت و اعلام هشدار به کاربران و توسعه نرم افزار مدیریت، کنترل و ارسال تصحیحات GPS به کاربران بود. در واقع هدی برای کاهش خطای حدوداً 30 متری سامانه جی پی اس در ایران به حدود یک متر و به صورت بی‌درنگ (Realtime) آماده شده بود.
> 
> در نتیجه ساخت سامانه هدی ضمن خدمات دهی به تعداد بسیار زیادی کاربر، دقت مکان‌یابی به صورت آنی تا شعاع 30 کیلومتری ایستگاه بالغ بر چند سانتیمتر و تا شعاع 150 کیلومتری آن در حد یک متر است. این میزان بسیار بالای دقت، هم برای فعالیت های نظامی، امنیتی، پلیسی و هم برای امور غیرنظامی مانند توسعه خطوط لوله، راه سازی، سد سازی، ایجاد نقشه های جغرافیایی دقیق کاملاً کافی بوده و برای افزایش میزان پوشش در کشور نیز افزایش تعداد ایستگاه ها در دستور کار بوده است.
> 
> بر اساس اخباری که در سالهای قبل اعلام شده، در حوزه دریایی نیز سامانه مشابهی با نام خلیج فارس در حال توسعه بوده که از تعدادی ایستگاه های دائمی و احتمالا تعدادی ایستگاه موقتی بهره خواهد برد. این سامانه نیز برای کمک به پیشرفت سریعتر و بهتر در فعالیت های دریایی کشور از پروژه های نفت و گاز در دریا گرفته تا کمک به پهلو گرفتن دقیق کشتی ها در اسکله و البته کمک به مسیر یابی شناورها و سلاح های دریایی کمک شایانی خواهد نمود.
> 
> همچنین، قبلا اعلام شده بود که برنامه آتی سامانه ملی هدی ارائه خدمات ناوبری دقیق در آسمان ایران با توجه به استانداردهای بین المللی است که مورد استفاده تمامی هواپیماهای کشور در تمامی مراحل پروازی اعم از برخاستن، پرواز و فرود خواهد بود که در شب و به خصوص در شرایط بد آب و هوایی بسیار مفید است. به عبارت دیگر با اجرایی شدن این مرحله از طرح، امکان ناوبری ایمن برای پروازها فراهم می شود.
> 
> عملیات های پهپادهای ایرانی با "هدی" دقیق تر می شود
> 
> علاوه بر ناوبری هواپیماهای سرنشین دار انواع پهپادها نیز از خدمات این سامانه بهره مند خواهند شد و با استفاده از آن امکان تعیین مدار و تعیین موقعیت دقیق ماهواره های بومی که به فضا پرتاپ می شوند نیز میسر خواهد شد. به کمک این سامانه مباحث مدنظر پدافند غیرعامل برای مقابله با خطاهای عمدی در سامانه جی-پی-اس نیز مرتفع خواهد شد.
> 
> اما در کنار این سامانه وجود توانایی موقعیت یابی بر پایه تجهیزات مستقل و بومی نیز برای شرایطی که هیچ یک از سامانه های موقعیت یابی جهانی قابل استفاده نباشد لازم است. با توجه به محدودیت های مالی و فنی موجود در زمینه قرار دادن ماهواره های لازم برای ایجاد یک جی-پی-اس بومی، متخصصان کشور در حال ایجاد یک سامانه موقعیت یابی محلی (LPS) هستند.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> این سامانه ضمن رفع نیاز کشور در داخل و خارج از مرزها در فواصل نزدیک، برخی مشکلات جی-پی-اس نظیر عدم پوشش مناسب در فضاهای بسته را نیز نخواهد داشت. همچنین از نظر بالا بودن دقت و نداشتن تأخیر زمانی محسوس نیز مطابق نیازهای کشور خواهد بود. سامانه ال-پی-اس از فناوری های نزدیک به سامانه هدی برخوردار است و بر پایه استفاده از آنتن‌های زمینی عمل می کند. با استفاده از آن مکان‌یابی اشیاء ثابت و متحرک مرتبط با سامانه با دقت بسیار بالا و به صورت آنی ممکن است.
> 
> ال-پی-اس به عنوان یک سامانه ناوبری اطلاعات موقعیتی را در هر شرایط آب و هوایی و در تمام نقاط محدوده تحت پوشش خود که در فضای تحت دید سه یا تعداد بیشتری ایستگاه باشد فراهم می کند. نوع خاص این سامانه به صورت بی درنگ(Realtime) اطلاعات موقعیتی اشیاء یا افراد را ردگیری می نماید. در این سامانه بر خلاف جی-پی-اس اتکایی به ماهواره ها وجود نداشته و ایستگاه‌های زمینی که دارای سامانه‌های لازم از جمله برای جهت‌یابی، محاسبه موقعیت و ارتباط امنِ بی‌سیم هستند نقش اصلی را بر عهده دارند. امروزه در کشورهای مختلفی از این سامانه به عنوان مکمل جی-پی-اس یا جایگزین در نقاطی که پوشش مناسبی از سوی آن وجود ندارد استفاده می شود.
> 
> ال-پی-اس می‌تواند همانند جی-پی-اس در هواپیما، بالگرد، کشتی و قایق، زیردریایی و خودروها به خصوص در انواع بدون سرنشین آن و همچنین در موشک‌های دورایستای کشور به کار آید.
> 
> هر چند ال-پی-اس محدودیت‌های خاص خود را دارد اما برای رفع نیاز فوری کشور به سامانه‌های دقیق مکان‌یابی در داخل و اطراف کشور بسیار لازم به نظر می‌رسد به خصوص در دریا که شاید بهترین محیط برای عملکرد چنین سامانه باشد. با بهره‌گیری از آن در صورت قطع امکان استفاده از جی-پی-اس و یا لزوم اختلال آن در منطقه‌ای از سوی کشورمان این سامانه به حفظ قابلیت عملکرد تجهیزات مختلف کشور کمک می‌کند.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> مراحل نصب و برپایی آنتن سامانه موقعیت‌یاب ملی در تصویر مشخص است
> 
> با توجه به اینکه وزیر دفاع کشورمان نیز صریحا اعلام کرده است که با توجه به عدم کنترل بر روی دقت، کیفیت و کمیت خدمات جی پی اس و امکان قطع آن در مواقع بحرانی، ایجاد یک سیستم بومی با قابلیت اطمینان بالا و جایگزینی سریع اجتناب پذیر به نظر می‌رسد، لذا می‌توان ابراز خوشنودی کرد که متخصصان و فرماندهان نیروهای مسلح کشورمان دقیقا بر نقاط قوت و ضعف دشمن اشراف داشته و طرح‌های دفاعی بر مبنای نیازهای واقعی و نه نمایشی و شعاری جلو می‌رود.
> 
> همچنین با توجه به اینکه وزارت دفاع قصد دارد نسبت به استقرار 5 ایستگاه فرستنده پر قدرت در نقاط مناسب کشور اقدام کرده و امکان ارائه خدمات موقعیت‌یابی ناوبری و زمان سنجی بصورت ملی را بوجود آورد، ترکیب این ال پی اس با امکاناتی که قرار است از طریق شرکت صا ایران و با استفاده از فناوری‌های مربوط به سیستم مکان‌یاب ماهواره‌ای بیدو به ایران وارد شود، هدایت و فعالیت‌های نظامی و غیرنظامی کشورمان در داخل و مناطق هدف در خارج را بهتر و دقیق تر پیش خواهد برد.
> 
> توضیح کامل در مورد سیستم هدی
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/273966/هدی-رسید-موشک-های-ایرانی-را-با-خیال-تخت-شلیک-کنید
> 
> Recently Iran is developing Quantum based positioning system too.
> 
> Iran will also sign a contract with China to access BeiDuo.
> Maybe it is already happened :
> http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/5361439/ایران-با-بیدو-به-حیاط-خلوت-ماهواره‌ای-آمریکا-می‌رود
> http://www.cyberbannews.com/سامانه-ناوبری-فضایی-بیدو-وارد-ایران-می‌شود
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/484711/تست-آن-لاین-و-معرفی-سامانه-ناوبری-بیدو-در-پنجم-آبان-ماه
> 
> 
> You need to see the tests of our missiles especially Hormoz-1-2 also Khalije Fars missile and see their accuracy!. It is a God damn sniper


But can LPS system help strike targets 1600 km away with precision. LPS is only a local system with limited radius.


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## Muhammed45

Stryker1982 said:


> But can LPS system help strike targets 1600 km away with precision. LPS is only a local system with limited radius.


That's right but LPS is not the only system that Iran is using


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## VEVAK

Stryker1982 said:


> Vevak is a long time and respected member of this room, you should be careful calling him a fool, he knows alot more than you do. Though I thought it was widely believed to be 150 cep





Fafnir said:


> I dont know where you`re getting this 500m cep from as frankly I doubt that even the non emad warhead equipped ghidirs/shahab 3 using the old triconic warheads would have a cep that abysmal,in fact I would think that even their ceps would probably be less that half that at worst.To put this in perspective lets look at a roughly equivalent system to the emad the pershing 2,this medium ranged missile also used a terminally guided marv warhead to achieve a cep of around 30m,however this was done using mid 1970s technology so I would think that its probably very likely that iran could well have improved upon this thanks to the benefits of over 40+ years worth of technological development and advancements since then,I would think that at a minimum you`re looking at an accuracy of potentially at least 30m if not considerably better in fact and even with a cep of "only" 30m this would still allow you to have a very credible shot at targeting the larger hardened aircraft shelters such as the dual hanger types.
> GPS receivers dont transmit they are passive so the idea that the us could somehow track you via a gps receiver in your weapons ins is very unlikely but I suppose there could always be the remote possibility of a back door installed in civilian receivers,also altho in theory the us could turn off the civilian gps signals in practice this would likely cause enormous problems and disruption just because of how many things there are that rely upon these systems in todays world,altho one possibility would be to shut down coverage over one geographical area,however this wouldnt affect other positioning systems like he existing glonass or the up and coming beidou or Galileo systems so the best option would be to use two or three of these positioning systems in your weapons and to make very sure that you had good backups if these are unreliable or unavailable as using just gps or indeed any positioning system as your weapons sole form of guidance system would be very,very unwise. .



![/QUOTE]

Emad is 500 Meters and that's straight from Iran's own Defense minister at the time (Dehghan)!

1st Generation of Fatteh Class had a CEP of 750meters at 250km then it went to 150meters and now they have brought the CEP down to 50 meters




The Persian Gulf missile has an optical terminal guidance that further reduced that to 25 meters on early version to 15-10 meters on newer versions and lR systems are not cheap

The most accurate version of the Pershing-2 used terrain counter mapping using an active radar & to do that you need space based sats to draw info from or Aircrafts that have previously mapped the area to give you info so how many Sat's did the U.S. have up in mid 70's & 80's vs how many we have up today???
Also, just because it has a proclaimed accuracy of 100 ft doesn't make it true! Your talking about a missile that's traveling at almost "3000 meters per second" so the processing power required to hit something with an accuracy of 30 meters at that speed was not there even for the U.S. in the 80's & I don't care what they claim fact is it's nothing but fiction! You talking about a ballistic missile built a decade before the Tomahawk with a CEP more accurate than the Tomahawk moving at speeds 10X faster than the Tomahawk I call that FICTION! and Propaganda!

1st It doesn't much matter if it's passive or NOT & Iran proved it when they hacked the RQ-170! 2ndly Right now Google maps can detect and give you real time traffic patterns using GPS installed on your cellphone and they can do it because GPS systems that are readily available are anything BUT passive to the people operating the sats! So yes it's passive but only to the people that aren't operating those sat's and are only secure if their ID information or location haven't been compromised

Why do you think Iran would invest in developing it's own ground based positioning systems if they thought for a second that GPS were a viable option for military use and if all GPS sat's did was send a signal out with a time stamp Iran and other countries in the world could just simply build their own receivers and simply use the time stamp data signals coming from various US GPS sat's to calculate location 





Fact is Iran shouldn't even allow Cellphones with GPS systems on them to enter their bases let alone use a US based GPS for navigation on military equipment

So that's nothing more than miss information yes Iran may use cheap GPS based systems during peace time in anti terrorist operations but to base your military equipment on them will give away your location & the number of equipment that you have



Stryker1982 said:


> But can LPS system help strike targets 1600 km away with precision. LPS is only a local system with limited radius.



5 of them covers the entire country! So it's not so limited especially for a vehicle at over 100km altitude because your line of sight will be well over 1000km from your boarders & it's enough to guide & correct your trajectory towards a target that far but you'll still need Terminal Guidance for reentry!


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## Muhammed45

*خصوصیات موشک «عماد» از زبان سردار دهقان*
۱۳۹۴/۰۷/۲۰ ۰۸:۳۱:۰۲ / کدخبر : ۶۰۲۸۴



6GOXz382T93e


موشک «عماد»، نخستین موشک دوربرد جمهوری اسلامی ایران با قابلیت هدایت و کنترل تا لحظه اصابت به هدف می باشد؛ که قادر است اهداف مورد نظر را با دقت بالا مورد اصابت قرار داده بطور کامل منهدم کند.

به گزارشMuslimPress؛ سردار دکتر حسین دهقان، وزیر دفاع جمهوری اسلامی ایزان در مصاحبه با خبرنگاران اعلام کرد؛ در آستانه محرم حسینی فرزندان رشید ملت بزرگ و سلحشور ایران اسلامی در وزارت دفاع با مدد گرفتن از الطاف بیکران الهی و رمز مقدس یا ابوالفضل العباس(ع) موشک دوربرد «عماد» نسل جدید موشک های بالستیک زمین به زمین جمهوری اسلامی ایران را با موفقیت آزمایش کردند.

سردار دهقان با اشاره به راهبرد وزارت دفاع جمهوری اسلامی ایران در توسعه و تکمیل توان موشکی نیروهای مسلح و افزایش قدرت بازدارندگی موثر جمهوری اسلامی ایران گفت: این موشک که تمامی مراحل طراحی وساخت آن توسط دانشمندان و متخصصان سازمان صنایع هوافضای وزارت دفاع صورت پذیرفته است، نخستین موشک دوربرد جمهوری اسلامی ایران با قابلیت هدایت و کنترل تا لحظه اصابت به هدف می باشد؛ که قادر است اهداف مورد نظر را با دقت بالا مورد اصابت قرار داده بطور کامل منهدم کند.وزیر دفاع با بیان اینکه طراحی، ساخت و آزمایش موفقیت آمیز موشک عماد یک جهش فناورانه و عملیاتی در این حوزه راهبردی به شمار می رود تاکید کرد: ما برای افزایش قدرت دفاعی و توان موشکی خود از هیچکس اجازه نمی گیریم و برنامه های دفاعی خود را بویژه در حوزه موشکی با قاطعیت دنبال می کنیم که موشک عماد یکی از مصادیق برجسته آن محسوب می شود.سردار دهقان با تبریک این موفقیت بزرگ و دستاورد ارزشمند به رهبر انقلاب اسلامی ایران، نیروهای مسلح و ملت رشید ایران و قدردانی از زحمات و تلاش بی وقفه مدیران، دانشمندان و متخصصان سازمان صنایع هوافضای وزارت دفاع این کشور تصریح کرد، با تحویل انبوه موشک عماد به یگان های موشکی نیروهای مسلح در آینده نزدیک قدرت و توان تاکتیکی و عملیاتی آنان به نحو بسیار چشمگیری افزایش خواهد یافت.

وزارت دفاع جمهوری اسلامی ایران روز گذشته(یک شنبه) موشک دوربرد «عماد» که از نوع بالستیک نیز می باشد را با موفقیت آزمایش کرد.


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## ashool

VEVAK said:


> What do you think that video proves?
> 
> My source is Iran's Defense Minister! And the info was published on Farsnews!
> 
> You have no source! Just wishes and dreams! And the notion that hitting a target with a 500 meter cep at 1600km with a ballistic missile at Iran's technical capabilities is somehow easy is only in your head! And it's disrespectful to the kids that worked hard to get to that accuracy using a ballistic missile without any access to various sat systems or the permission to launch as many tests as they want!


what about you i dont say anything i dont know about but you maybe you are commander in ircg i dont know so i believe what i see and i see it hit the target after 4.5 minute flight 4.5 think about it ok how old are you .and when he said cep 500 my source is sardar haji zade he say less than 10 for zolfaghar

its funny 0.3 %*250000m=75000/100 are you kiddin me 750 m go after some study come back

so please go speak on that side if you are not iranian and you want not use iranian source

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## Stryker1982

5 of them covers the entire country! So it's not so limited especially for a vehicle at over 100km altitude because your line of sight will be well over 1000km from your boarders & it's enough to guide & correct your trajectory towards a target that far but you'll still need Terminal Guidance for reentry!
[/QUOTE]






I'm not as well versed about the technicality of missile technology. So if LPS systems are deployed on very tall mountains on Irans south, could it be expected at the radius of LPS system be able to cover the eastern portion (most critically important portion) of Saudi arabia considering the Persian gulf is obviously flat and so is most of arabestan. This would be able to help reduce CEP during terminal guidance right? Additionally, would Iran be able to add optical seekers to Zolfiqar to improve its CEP in termianl guidance with the addition of some sort of gas steering warhead to help its manourvability in terminal stage. It could be costly but Iran should have atleast a few hundred some number of those missiles with those capabilities stockpiled. Tomahawks cost around a million dollars each, are ballistics missile more expensive to manufacture? A million dollars doesn't seem like to much for Iran


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## VEVAK

ashool said:


> what about you i dont say anything i dont know about but you maybe you are commander in ircg i dont know so i believe what i see and i see it hit the target after 4.5 minute flight 4.5 think about it ok how old are you .and when he said cep 500 my source is sardar haji zade he say less than 10 for zolfaghar
> 
> its funny 0.3 %*250000m=75000/100 are you kiddin me 750 m go after some study come back
> 
> so please go speak on that side if you are not iranian and you want not use iranian source




750 meters is for the 1st generation of the Fatteh-110 that went into production in 2002 by ~2004 Iran was testing upgraded versions with 150m cep and ~ 5 years later they had it down to ~50 meters during testing (and not at max range) and a few years later it went into production 
the rapid reduction in CEP is directly related to rapid growth in computing power & increase in access to more powerful processors 
http://www.mindexcenter.ir/product/fateh-110-surface-surface-rocket
Now you can cry about it all you want but that still doesn't change the facts!

The Zolfaghar missile has better maneuverability than the Fatteh class because it's a 1.5 stage missile & it doesn't need to carry dead weight behind it so it has the potential of being upgraded to ~10 meter CEP if you put enough money into it 

People here that know me know full well that I'm Iranian & I don't have to prove that I'm Iranian to you!
The only difference is I don't care much for nonsense and propaganda! I believe in FACTS!
If Iranian politicians & Iranian youth remain under the delusion that we can hit targets with a 50 meter CEP at 1600km with Ballistic Missiles then there would be no reason for further funding, R&D & testing on navigation & targeting sensors and equipment for ballistic missiles of that range! And it also results is various miscalculations!
If the delusions and misinformation surrounding the usefulness of the Q-313 remains among Iranian society, media,... then there would be no further reason to invest in a real fighter program and if Iran wants to take a real fighter into production 20 years from now then they need to start working and investing on it today!

And if your info is based on Iranian media then you need to know how to distinguish facts from fiction!






Now if someone with limited knowledge about fighters was to listen and base their info on that they would think the Q-313 is somehow a supersonic 5th generation stealth fighter but in reality regardless of what upgrades you put on that platform the fact is that aircraft is a low maneuvering subsonic platform and fascination about that aircraft just because it looks cool and lack of discussion about it's flaws will end up hurting Iran's chances of building a real fighter 

And according to Iran's Former Defense Minister Emad's CEP is 500 meters and that may not seem like a very good CEP to someone who doesn't know much about the subject but for a country who doesn't have various space based assets it is! And if war breaks out with various launches & adjustments or if Iran chooses to start testing it's systems the platform could potentially achieve a CEP half of that but that's still far from 50 meters

As I said before the missile is good enough to target large facilities like Refineries, Power plants, sections of an Air Base & Naval ports BUT it can NOT target large buildings or runways! And claiming that it can results in miscalculations when it comes to the countries need to invest in various sensors and other platforms!

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## Draco.IMF

VEVAK said:


> 750 meters is for the 1st generation of the Fatteh-110 that went into production in 2002 by ~2004 Iran was testing upgraded versions with 150m cep and ~ 5 years later they had it down to ~50 meters during testing (and not at max range) and a few years later it went into production
> the rapid reduction in CEP is directly related to rapid growth in computing power & increase in access to more powerful processors
> http://www.mindexcenter.ir/product/fateh-110-surface-surface-rocket
> Now you can cry about it all you want but that still doesn't change the facts!
> 
> The Zolfaghar missile has better maneuverability than the Fatteh class because it's a 1.5 stage missile & it doesn't need to carry dead weight behind it so it has the potential of being upgraded to ~10 meter CEP if you put enough money into it
> 
> People here that know me know full well that I'm Iranian & I don't have to prove that I'm Iranian to you!
> The only difference is I don't care much for nonsense and propaganda! I believe in FACTS!
> If Iranian politicians & Iranian youth remain under the delusion that we can hit targets with a 50 meter CEP at 1600km with Ballistic Missiles then there would be no reason for further funding, R&D & testing on navigation & targeting sensors and equipment for ballistic missiles of that range! And it also results is various miscalculations!
> If the delusions and misinformation surrounding the usefulness of the Q-313 remains among Iranian society, media,... then there would be no further reason to invest in a real fighter program and if Iran wants to take a real fighter into production 20 years from now then they need to start working and investing on it today!
> 
> And if your info is based on Iranian media then you need to know how to distinguish facts from fiction!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now if someone with limited knowledge about fighters was to listen and base their info on that they would think the Q-313 is somehow a supersonic 5th generation stealth fighter but in reality regardless of what upgrades you put on that platform the fact is that aircraft is a low maneuvering subsonic platform and fascination about that aircraft just because it looks cool and lack of discussion about it's flaws will end up hurting Iran's chances of building a real fighter
> 
> And according to Iran's Former Defense Minister Emad's CEP is 500 meters and that may not seem like a very good CEP to someone who doesn't know much about the subject but for a country who doesn't have various space based assets it is! And if war breaks out with various launches & adjustments or if Iran chooses to start testing it's systems the platform could potentially achieve a CEP half of that but that's still far from 50 meters
> 
> As I said before the missile is good enough to target large facilities like Refineries, Power plants, sections of an Air Base & Naval ports BUT it can NOT target large buildings or runways! And claiming that it can results in miscalculations when it comes to the countries need to invest in various sensors and other platforms!



whats your opinion (based on facts, not propaganda) on iran air defence capabilities (homegrew projects like Mersad/Raad/Bavar......)


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## VEVAK

Stryker1982 said:


> 5 of them covers the entire country! So it's not so limited especially for a vehicle at over 100km altitude because your line of sight will be well over 1000km from your boarders & it's enough to guide & correct your trajectory towards a target that far but you'll still need Terminal Guidance for reentry!








I'm not as well versed about the technicality of missile technology. So if LPS systems are deployed on very tall mountains on Irans south, could it be expected at the radius of LPS system be able to cover the eastern portion (most critically important portion) of Saudi arabia considering the Persian gulf is obviously flat and so is most of arabestan. This would be able to help reduce CEP during terminal guidance right? Additionally, would Iran be able to add optical seekers to Zolfiqar to improve its CEP in termianl guidance with the addition of some sort of gas steering warhead to help its manourvability in terminal stage. It could be costly but Iran should have atleast a few hundred some number of those missiles with those capabilities stockpiled. Tomahawks cost around a million dollars each, are ballistics missile more expensive to manufacture? A million dollars doesn't seem like to much for Iran[/QUOTE]


Again it depends on the altitude of your projectile 5 stations in Iran regardless of location could potentially cover most of Saudi Arabia depending on the altitude of your projectile

The way GPS works is simple in theory. Sound and radio waves have a fixed speed and if you have an atomic clock with enough computing power you can calculate the time it take for a signal to reach a location and using that you can calculate distance & if you can calculate distance from 5 fixed locations in Iran then you can triangulate the location
So no 1 station in southern Iran on top of a mountain will not work because that's not how GPS systems work

with a correct altitude Iran can use that to make sure the missiles is on the right trajectory but they'll still need terminal guidance!
And you can never limit your self to a certain kind of guidance systems because then countries will just use countermeasures to that specific type of guidance system
So yes Iran should have electro optical on some but if your going to put them on all your systems then it can't be your only type of guidance system on that missile



Draco.IMF said:


> whats your opinion (based on facts, not propaganda) on iran air defence capabilities (homegrew projects like Mersad/Raad/Bavar......)



Their capabilities to counter an Aircraft's countermeasures need to be increased


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## ashool

VEVAK said:


> I'm not as well versed about the technicality of missile technology. So if LPS systems are deployed on very tall mountains on Irans south, could it be expected at the radius of LPS system be able to cover the eastern portion (most critically important portion) of Saudi arabia considering the Persian gulf is obviously flat and so is most of arabestan. This would be able to help reduce CEP during terminal guidance right? Additionally, would Iran be able to add optical seekers to Zolfiqar to improve its CEP in termianl guidance with the addition of some sort of gas steering warhead to help its manourvability in terminal stage. It could be costly but Iran should have atleast a few hundred some number of those missiles with those capabilities stockpiled. Tomahawks cost around a million dollars each, are ballistics missile more expensive to manufacture? A million dollars doesn't seem like to much for Iran


where is your source about sardar dehghan maybe we dont read mashregh or tasnim you story run away from me 
and you say they make 0ne or 2 with pinpoint capability and other 500 cep its new and interesting idea they are some people even see with you own eyes in one meter far from them but they dont believe and say prapa.... 
but when say something about something like that say you source are west side not iranian if you dont believe in our source iranian source what are you doing in iran forum read it
یوزی رابین از کارشناسان برجسته دفاع موشکی رژیم صهیونیستی در این باره می گوید: "ایرانی ها توان نصب بالک ها روی موشکهای بالستیک را داشته و می توانند با استفاده از قابلیت، دقت موشک های خود را شدیدا افزایش داده و موشکی با برد 2000 کیلومتر با توان حمله دقیق داشته باشند. "

سردار دهقان با اشاره به راهبرد وزارت دفاع در توسعه و تکمیل توان موشکی نیروهای مسلح و افزایش قدرت بازدارندگی موثر جمهوری اسلامی ایران گفت: این موشک که تمامی مراحل طراحی وساخت آن توسط دانشمندان و متخصصان سازمان صنایع هوافضای وزارت دفاع صورت پذیرفته است،



نخستین موشک دوربرد جمهوری اسلامی ایران با قابلیت هدایت و کنترل تا لحظه اصابت به هدف است که قادر است اهداف مورد نظر را با دقت بالا مورد اصابت قرار داده بطور کامل منهدم کند.

حتما شما به 500 متر میگی دقیق پس غیر دقیق شما چقدره خدا میدونه

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## Fafnir

*


VEVAK said:



Emad is 500 Meters and that's straight from Iran's own Defense minister at the time (Dehghan)!

Click to expand...

*Actually the only reference I could find to the claim of a 500m cep was not from deghan but from the rather notorious anthony cordesman whose shall we say inaccuracies regarding irans missile forces are a matter of public record,I personally would take anything from him and indeed from most of the western right wing think tank "experts" with a very large helping of sodium chloride,but if you do have an actual link to deghan stating this himself then please by all means post it as I would certainly like to see it.
*


VEVAK said:



The most accurate version of the Pershing-2 used terrain counter mapping using an active radar & to do that you need space based sats to draw info from or Aircrafts that have previously mapped the area to give you info so how many Sat's did the U.S. have up in mid 70's & 80's vs how many we have up today???
Also, just because it has a proclaimed accuracy of 100 ft doesn't make it true! Your talking about a missile that's traveling at almost "3000 meters per second" so the processing power required to hit something with an accuracy of 30 meters at that speed was not there even for the U.S. in the 80's & I don't care what they claim fact is it's nothing but fiction! You talking about a ballistic missile built a decade before the Tomahawk with a CEP more accurate than the Tomahawk moving at speeds 10X faster than the Tomahawk I call that FICTION! and Propaganda!

Click to expand...

*The pershing 2 did indeed use radar based tercom as its target acquisition method and yes back in the mid 70s to get those radar maps you needed aircraft or sats,however that is certainly not the case today as it is possible to use high quality topographical maps instead,indeed without this very same capability irans new soumar and ya ali cruise missiles would probably have to depend either on gps/glonass or purely on inertial guidance.
As for the pershing 2 accuracy I see no real reason to doubt it,the americans extensively tested it before putting it into service and its not like it was having to hit a moving target either,you can see a clip of how it actually works here:
http://www.efootage.com/stock-footage/20142/Pershing_Ii_Missile_Guidance_System_Animation/
in addition the cruise missile,both alcm and tomahawk,were also from that very same time period as the pershing 2 ie the early to mid 70s,at around this time the americans were becoming more interested in the possibility of so called decapitation strikes which would have required much better accuracy than the previous systems possessed but fortunately several new technologies and improved guidance systems became available at around the same time to make this possible.The soviets certainly took this possibility very seriously and viewed both the pershing 2 and the cruise missile with alarm.Another us weapon from the same time period which also demonstrated extreme accuracy for the time was the mx missile/peacekeeper icbm which had a cep of between 90-120m[!!] by comparison the soviet icbm force had a cep of between 400-800m+.

*


VEVAK said:



1st It doesn't much matter if it's passive or NOT & Iran proved it when they hacked the RQ-170! 2ndly Right now Google maps can detect and give you real time traffic patterns using GPS installed on your cellphone and they can do it because GPS systems that are readily available are anything BUT passive to the people operating the sats! So yes it's passive but only to the people that aren't operating those sat's and are only secure if their ID information or location haven't been compromised

Click to expand...

*We dont actually know exactly how the rq-170 or the other drones were captured,the gps spoofing was just one of the most popular theories and had been tested against simple drones in the us and found to be possible.
Gps receivers are passive but cell phones are not they are active emitters even when you are not actually using them to talk to someone and would be a potential security risk regardless of any gps component.

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## VEVAK

ashool said:


> where is your source about sardar dehghan maybe we dont read mashregh or tasnim you story run away from me
> and you say they make 0ne or 2 with pinpoint capability and other 500 cep its new and interesting idea they are some people even see with you own eyes in one meter far from them but they dont believe and say prapa....
> but when say something about something like that say you source are west side not iranian if you dont believe in our source iranian source what are you doing in iran forum read it
> یوزی رابین از کارشناسان برجسته دفاع موشکی رژیم صهیونیستی در این باره می گوید: "ایرانی ها توان نصب بالک ها روی موشکهای بالستیک را داشته و می توانند با استفاده از قابلیت، دقت موشک های خود را شدیدا افزایش داده و موشکی با برد 2000 کیلومتر با توان حمله دقیق داشته باشند. "
> 
> سردار دهقان با اشاره به راهبرد وزارت دفاع در توسعه و تکمیل توان موشکی نیروهای مسلح و افزایش قدرت بازدارندگی موثر جمهوری اسلامی ایران گفت: این موشک که تمامی مراحل طراحی وساخت آن توسط دانشمندان و متخصصان سازمان صنایع هوافضای وزارت دفاع صورت پذیرفته است،
> 
> 
> 
> نخستین موشک دوربرد جمهوری اسلامی ایران با قابلیت هدایت و کنترل تا لحظه اصابت به هدف است که قادر است اهداف مورد نظر را با دقت بالا مورد اصابت قرار داده بطور کامل منهدم کند.
> 
> حتما شما به 500 متر میگی دقیق پس غیر دقیق شما چقدره خدا میدونه


 
Harchi dost dari bavar kon! Hagheeghat hamooneh keh goftam lakeen agar donbal eani keh delet khosh bosheh, pass ghabool, deghatesh hamooni e keh tow gofti!

Without a proper guidance system a ballistic missiles with 2000km range will probably have a CEP of over 10km

A Scud A at 180km had a CEP of 3km So when you hear 1st generation Fatteh at 250km had a CEP of 750 meters then yes comparatively it was an accurate missile!

So yes 500 meters at almost 2000km away with a ballistic missile for a country that doesn't have various space based assets is accurate especially since your other missiles have a CEP that's twice that! So multiple hits within 500meters with large warheads that probably have about 100 meter blast radius or more depending on the warhead can decimate a power plant, refinery, depot,.... so you can target vital infrastructure of a country!

So if you were to drop 20 ballistic missiles on 100 vital facilities (2000 missiles) even with 500 meter CEP that would create havoc and destruction you need to allow your cruise missiles, UAV's, UCAV will come in to assess damage and takeout targets more accurately with a focus on SAM's, radars & communication making room for your fighters or bombers to come in and take out command, underground facilities, heavily fortified bunkers, wipe out airbases...


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## Draco.IMF

How they were able to copy the russian Iskander missile? 
Pin point accuracy with an 800km range missile!
The quetsion is, was the target 800km away or much less, and if GPS was used.


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## ashool

VEVAK said:


> Harchi dost dari bavar kon! Hagheeghat hamooneh keh goftam lakeen agar donbal eani keh delet khosh bosheh, pass ghabool, deghatesh hamooni e keh tow gofti!
> 
> Without a proper guidance system a ballistic missiles with 2000km range will probably have a CEP of over 10km
> 
> A Scud A at 180km had a CEP of 3km So when you hear 1st generation Fatteh at 250km had a CEP of 750 meters then yes comparatively it was an accurate missile!
> 
> So yes 500 meters at almost 2000km away with a ballistic missile for a country that doesn't have various space based assets is accurate especially since your other missiles have a CEP that's twice that! So multiple hits within 500meters with large warheads that probably have about 100 meter blast radius or more depending on the warhead can decimate a power plant, refinery, depot,.... so you can target vital infrastructure of a country!
> 
> So if you were to drop 20 ballistic missiles on 100 vital facilities (2000 missiles) even with 500 meter CEP that would create havoc and destruction you need to allow your cruise missiles, UAV's, UCAV will come in to assess damage and takeout targets more accurately with a focus on SAM's, radars & communication making room for your fighters or bombers to come in and take out command, underground facilities, heavily fortified bunkers, wipe out airbases...[/QUOTE
> مسله دل خوشی نی مشکل اطلاعات غلط جناب عالی که از دهان سر دار دهقان میگی و هیچ جا وجود ندازه اطلاعات شما در باره 500 متر دقت از سایت های خارجی نه دهقان
> بهتر وقتی حرفی میزنی براش دلیل بیاری نه ملغته کنی و حرف بپیچونی به دل خوشی من اگه به اطلاعات ایرانی تبلیغات میدونی غربی ها که دروغ گوی مادر زاد هستن



masale delkhoshi man ni moshkel etelaat ghalatye ke shoma azdahan sardar dehghan migi ke hich ja ni age harfi mizani barash dalil byar na malghate kon va bepichonesh be del khoshi baghye 
age manabe irani tablighate gharbi ha ke madar zad dar mored iran irani dorogh go hastan va be etelaateshon aslan etebari ni


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## VEVAK

Fafnir said:


> Actually the only reference I could find to the claim of a 500m cep was not from deghan but from the rather notorious anthony cordesman whose shall we say inaccuracies regarding irans missile forces are a matter of public record,I personally would take anything from him and indeed from most of the western right wing think tank "experts" with a very large helping of sodium chloride,but if you do have an actual link to deghan stating this himself then please by all means post it as I would certainly like to see it.
> *
> *
> The pershing 2 did indeed use radar based tercom as its target acquisition method and yes back in the mid 70s to get those radar maps you needed aircraft or sats,however that is certainly not the case today as it is possible to use high quality topographical maps instead,indeed without this very same capability irans new soumar and ya ali cruise missiles would probably have to depend either on gps/glonass or purely on inertial guidance.
> As for the pershing 2 accuracy I see no real reason to doubt it,the americans extensively tested it before putting it into service and its not like it was having to hit a moving target either,you can see a clip of how it actually works here:
> http://www.efootage.com/stock-footage/20142/Pershing_Ii_Missile_Guidance_System_Animation/
> in addition the cruise missile,both alcm and tomahawk,were also from that very same time period as the pershing 2 ie the early to mid 70s,at around this time the americans were becoming more interested in the possibility of so called decapitation strikes which would have required much better accuracy than the previous systems possessed but fortunately several new technologies and improved guidance systems became available at around the same time to make this possible.The soviets certainly took this possibility very seriously and viewed both the pershing 2 and the cruise missile with alarm.Another us weapon from the same time period which also demonstrated extreme accuracy for the time was the mx missile/peacekeeper icbm which had a cep of between 90-120m[!!] by comparison the soviet icbm force had a cep of between 400-800m+.
> 
> 
> We dont actually know exactly how the rq-170 or the other drones were captured,the gps spoofing was just one of the most popular theories and had been tested against simple drones in the us and found to be possible.
> Gps receivers are passive but cell phones are not they are active emitters even when you are not actually using them to talk to someone and would be a potential security risk regardless of any gps component.



Trust me 500 meters came straight from Dehgan himself and other media outlets picked up on it because it's a more realistic and accurate figure!

And you keep comparing Iran with the U.S. in the 80's with complete disregard to how many Sat's U.S. had up in the mid 70's & 80's
And it doesn't matter what type of guidance systems U.S. put on the Pershing-2 because without the processing power to go with it, it's just not possible because you talking about a projectile that's moving at over 2.5Km per second so your not going to hit a 30 meter CEP that's even better than the accuracy on the early versions of the Tomahawk
Also another indication that 30 meters is BS is the fact that they canceled the earth penetrator versions & only kept the nukes version & if your using nukes you can claim whatever you want 30 meters 200 meters it doesn't much matter does it?
And that missile didn't even last a decade in the U.S. military so I wouldn't say it was very successful

As for the RQ-170 your missing the point! Faking a GPS signal is a lot simpler for countries like U.S. & Israel than it is for Iran regardless of how the RQ-170 was downed 
As for cellphones normal cellphones don't transmit anything into space! I'm not sure how they do it but if I was to guess I would say all they need is the specific log time a signal was transmitted to a specific ID in their registry I spose it's the same way a sat radio distinguishes user ID they don't need your car to transmit anything into deep space 
And if they were so careless to allow signal to go out without an ID or registry then any country could just use their systems and other countries wouldn't need to bother with developing their own GPS or LPS systems because all your doing is calculating distance by measuring the time it takes for signals traveling at a fixed speed to reach you from a fixed location in space
And even if you were to assume that they are completely passive in terms of detection they sure as hell aren't secure so you might as well build your own signal to send to calculate & make sure your on the correct trajectory for the first 5 min of launch that way you wont have to worry about GPS spoofing
Which again makes what the Israeli General was saying about Iran using $50 GPS receivers absolute nonsense!


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## Fafnir

Draco.IMF said:


> How they were able to copy the russian Iskander missile?
> Pin point accuracy with an 800km range missile!
> The quetsion is, was the target 800km away or much less, and if GPS was used.


Its not a copy of the iskander,tho it does bare a close resemblance but there are differences as well so I think it was certainly inspired by the iskander,heres a pic of them side by side.Iskander has only been exported to 2 other countries and that was only within the last few years,also these would likely be the E model with a 280km range,so it seems unlikely that the rok could have acquired any to copy.




As for guidance,well if its anything like the iskander it probably uses a gps/glonass aided ins with something like radar[tercom] or optical for the terminal phase of the attack.As for how far away the targets were I couldnt say but south korea isnt huge and they`re also fairly close to japan as well so I`d have some doubts about full range flights although they could do what the dprk dprk does and loft them instead,tho the latest test appears to be from a barge so they appear to be firing them out to sea like the dprk does.


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## mohsen

به گزارش جهان نیوز، عصر امروز پنج شنبه در جشن 4 سالگی دکتر سلام که با تقدیر از زحمات سردار حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه و همکارانش همراه بود
فیلم جدیدی از لحظه اصابت موشک‌های سپاه به مقرهای داعش در دیرالزور پخش شد
another footage of IRGC missile attack on ISIS positions in Dayr al-Zawr

https://cdn.mashreghnews.ir/d/2017/09/14/0/2050315.mp4


destroying a bridge with maximum accuracy, this is for those idiots who repeat their 500m CEP b.s!
https://newsmedia.tasnimnews.com/Tasnim/Uploaded/Video/1396/06/23/1396062318331877111926674.mp4

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## yavar

*Iran IRGC UCAV & ballistic missile strike on ISIL terrorist convoys Raqqa,Dayr Zawr حملات موشکی سپاه*

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## Sina-1

mohsen said:


> destroying a bridge with maximum accuracy, this is for those idiots who repeat their 500m CEP b.s!
> https://newsmedia.tasnimnews.com/Tasnim/Uploaded/Video/1396/06/23/1396062318331877111926674.mp4



Wow! Can anyone take still images of this? It certainly puts behind all doubts regarding pin point accuracy!

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## raptor22

Sina-1 said:


> Wow! Can anyone take still images of this? It certainly puts behind all doubts regarding pin point accuracy!


@mohsen did it here ..

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## yavar

*Iran Gen Hajizadeh: Gen Ghalibaf expanded missile bases سردار حاجی‌زاده: قالیباف گسترش پایگاه موشکی*


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## skyshadow

Hello friends. Today, Khorramshahr missile was unveiled. Khorramshahr is the newest long-range missile unveiled by Iran, with a range of 2,000 kilometers and the warhead weight is 1.8 tons. Remember that by decreasing the weight of the warhead , the range of missile will increase.
*جدیدترین موشک بالستیک ایران با نام "خرمشهر" رونمایی شد + تصاویر*
شناسه خبر: 1526340 سرویس: سیاسی
۳۱ شهريور ۱۳۹۶ - ۱۰:۲۰



*جدیدترین موشک بالستیک ایران با نام "خرمشهر" در مراسم رژه نیروهای مسلح رونمایی شد.*
به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم، جدیدترین موشک بالستیک ایران، دقایقی پیش در مراسم رژه نیروهای مسلح در تهران با حضور مقامات عالی‌رتبه نظامی رونمایی شد.

این موشک بالستیک خرمشهر نام دارد ولی هیچ ویژگی یا مشخصاتی از آن تا این لحظه منتشر نشده است.

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## PeeD

As I predicted, the Khorramshahr missile is a thick, single stage soild fuel missile with a sufficient throw weight for several warheads.
It packs the flexibility of expensive solid fuel missiles, remains below 2000km but delivers several warheads instead of one, this compensates the higher cost of the missile and likely makes the overall missile system significantly cheaper than a Ghadr or Emad.

Great system if it is that and not just a submunition warhead. Lets wait for more details.

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## yavar

*Iran Sacred Defense Week 2017 parades ballistic missile Khorramshahr IRBM موشک بالستیک خرمشهر*

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## yavar

*


the missile is cold launching missile and the TEL which is in images curring the Khorramshahr missile cannot launch this missile , you just need to look at rear of the missile for proof ,

what does that tell you ?? and guess what ? they said the magic number 2000KM range, but in realty ............., and they going to say it is conventional missile, because of UNSCR 2231

meaning the BS continues*

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## mohsen

skyshadow said:


> Hello friends. Today, Khorramshahr missile was unveiled. Khorramshahr is the newest long-range missile unveiled by Iran, with a range of 2,000 kilometers and the warhead weight is 1.8 tons. Remember that by decreasing the weight of the warhead , the range of missile will increase.
> *جدیدترین موشک بالستیک ایران با نام "خرمشهر" رونمایی شد + تصاویر*
> شناسه خبر: 1526340 سرویس: سیاسی
> ۳۱ شهريور ۱۳۹۶ - ۱۰:۲۰
> 
> 
> 
> *جدیدترین موشک بالستیک ایران با نام "خرمشهر" در مراسم رژه نیروهای مسلح رونمایی شد.*
> به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم، جدیدترین موشک بالستیک ایران، دقایقی پیش در مراسم رژه نیروهای مسلح در تهران با حضور مقامات عالی‌رتبه نظامی رونمایی شد.
> 
> این موشک بالستیک خرمشهر نام دارد ولی هیچ ویژگی یا مشخصاتی از آن تا این لحظه منتشر نشده است.


bro, warheads total weight is 1000 kg and are released 200km before the target, that 1.8t was something which that utter stupid moron f@cked up asshole IRIB reporter invented. in fact he said the weight of 1800 kilometer!
some of his other inventions were Tor M1 radar! Shabdiz recovered Tank (instead of recovery tank).

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## raptor22

mohsen said:


> bro, warheads total weight is 1000 kg and are released 200km before the target, that 1.8t was something which that utter stupid moron f@cked up asshole IRIB reporter invented. in fact he said the weight of 1800 kilometer!
> some of his other inventions were Tor M1 radar! Shabdiz recovered Tank (instead of recovery tank).


or: pasio radar,

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## Muhammed45

mohsen said:


> bro, warheads total weight is 1000 kg and are released 200km before the target, that 1.8t was something which that utter stupid moron f@cked up asshole IRIB reporter invented. in fact he said the weight of 1800 kilometer!
> some of his other inventions were Tor M1 radar! Shabdiz recovered Tank (instead of recovery tank).



Yet his damned voice is roaring inside my ears. 
What he called that missile :
با _*وزن *_1 *تن *و 800 *کیلومتر *اولین سامانه موشکی خرمشهر!!!!!! ش و م ب و ل انتقام خون مظلومان..........
https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/777480/فیلم-رونمایی-از-موشک-جدید-بالستیک-خرمشهر

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## skyshadow

mohsen said:


> bro, warheads total weight is 1000 kg and are released 200km before the target, that 1.8t was something which that utter stupid moron f@cked up asshole IRIB reporter invented. in fact he said the weight of 1800 kilometer!
> some of his other inventions were Tor M1 radar! Shabdiz recovered Tank (instead of recovery tank).



O my God. He really said that. Sorry i misunderstood. But brother, do not you think that a warhead with a weight of 1 ton for a missile that is capable of carrying multiple warheads is low?



mohammad45 said:


> Yet his damned voice is roaring inside my ears.
> What he called that missile :
> با _*وزن *_1 *تن *و 800 *کیلومتر *اولین سامانه موشکی خرمشهر!!!!!! ش و م ب و ل انتقام خون مظلومان..........
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/777480/فیلم-رونمایی-از-موشک-جدید-بالستیک-خرمشهر



why he was so angry?


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## mohsen

interview with Hajizadeh about Khorramshahr missile:
skip to 4m,16s:
http://www.telewebion.com/episode/1687626



skyshadow said:


> O my God. He really said that. Sorry i misunderstood. But brother, do not you think that a warhead with a weight of 1 ton for a missile that is capable of carrying multiple warheads is low?
> 
> 
> 
> why he was so angry?


well, to be more accurate, he said the weight of 1 ton and 800 kilometer!
IRGC website says 1800kg warhead, Hajizadeh in an interview said 1800km. I don't know which one is correct.

and about the weight, we can't judge cause we don't know any information about the type of it's warheads, we don't know what are it's targets or the intention of it's designers.

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## Draco.IMF

Yeah, I never heard of 1.8 ton warheads
Remember guys, Iran says always "1 ton-2000km", thats a political thing.
If you say 1.8 ton and 2000km a 1 ton warhead would surpass the "political limit" of 2000km.
Just numbers guys, dont believe them, this missiles range is far more than 2000km

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## Stryker1982

Draco.IMF said:


> Yeah, I never heard of 1.8 ton warheads
> Remember guys, Iran says always "1 ton-2000km", thats a political thing.
> If you say 1.8 ton and 2000km a 1 ton warhead would surpass the "political limit" of 2000km.
> Just numbers guys, dont believe them, this missiles range is far more than 2000km


The missile itself is also thicker than we usually see it, its range surely should be greater with large payloads.


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## yavar



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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> As I predicted, the Khorramshahr missile is a thick, single stage soild fuel missile with a sufficient throw weight for several warheads.
> It packs the flexibility of expensive solid fuel missiles, remains below 2000km but delivers several warheads instead of one, this compensates the higher cost of the missile and likely makes the overall missile system significantly cheaper than a Ghadr or Emad.
> 
> Great system if it is that and not just a submunition warhead. Lets wait for more details.



Solid fuel? It looks like the BM-25 Musudan, which is a liquid fuel missile.


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## arashkamangir

Draco.IMF said:


> Yeah, I never heard of 1.8 ton warheads
> Remember guys, Iran says always "1 ton-2000km", thats a political thing.
> If you say 1.8 ton and 2000km a 1 ton warhead would surpass the "political limit" of 2000km.
> Just numbers guys, dont believe them, this missiles range is far more than 2000km





yavar said:


>



Based on Gen. Hajizadeh's interview:

The missile has a range of 2000 Km and the *warhead is carried by the missile for 1800 Km.*


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## skyshadow

mohsen said:


> Hajizadeh in an interview said 1800km



Hajizadeh said the missile's warhead can hit several targets. How far do you think these targets can be from each other ?



Draco.IMF said:


> Yeah, I never heard of 1.8 ton warheads
> Remember guys, Iran says always "1 ton-2000km", thats a political thing.
> If you say 1.8 ton and 2000km a 1 ton warhead would surpass the "political limit" of 2000km.
> Just numbers guys, dont believe them, this missiles range is far more than 2000km



Yes, even Iranian military commanders openly and repeatedly said that the range of these missiles is more than 2000 kilometers.


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## mohsen

mohsen said:


> به گزارش جهان نیوز، عصر امروز پنج شنبه در جشن 4 سالگی دکتر سلام که با تقدیر از زحمات سردار حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه و همکارانش همراه بود
> فیلم جدیدی از لحظه اصابت موشک‌های سپاه به مقرهای داعش در دیرالزور پخش شد
> another footage of IRGC missile attack on ISIS positions in Dayr al-Zawr
> 
> https://cdn.mashreghnews.ir/d/2017/09/14/0/2050315.mp4
> 
> 
> destroying a bridge with maximum accuracy, this is for those idiots who repeat their 500m CEP b.s!
> https://newsmedia.tasnimnews.com/Tasnim/Uploaded/Video/1396/06/23/1396062318331877111926674.mp4


and here we go Full hd 





I recommend my bros to support the team and buy the product.
http://cinemamarket.ir/fa/Shop/product/Jashn4SalegiDrSalam

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> The missile itself is also thicker than we usually see it, its range surely should be greater with large payloads.


If the missile is thicker that's a good sign as it means at last they decided to move past 1.25m that we stuck on for last 2 decade.


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## VEVAK

JEskandari said:


> If the missile is thicker that's a good sign as it means at last they decided to move past 1.25m that we stuck on for last 2 decade.



I think this is more about Iran making a point that they have means and capability to even hit Diego Garcia if they wanted and all they have to do is add a good PBV or 2nd stage to this booster!

Clearly this new US administration ONLY understands the language of strength and force!



PeeD said:


> As I predicted, the Khorramshahr missile is a thick, single stage soild fuel missile with a sufficient throw weight for several warheads.
> It packs the flexibility of expensive solid fuel missiles, remains below 2000km but delivers several warheads instead of one, this compensates the higher cost of the missile and likely makes the overall missile system significantly cheaper than a Ghadr or Emad.
> 
> Great system if it is that and not just a submunition warhead. Lets wait for more details.



Great system but NOT a solid fuel!


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## Hindustani78

Missiles are displayed as Iranian President Hassan Rouhani attends an armed forces parade in Tehran, Iran, on Friday. | Photo Credit: HANDOUT

http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...aunches-ballistic-missile/article19740958.ece

* The report said the missile was launched late Friday, without providing further details. *
*Iran *has “successfully” launched a ballistic missile with a range of 2,000 km, a state-media report said on Saturday.

State-run Press TV broadcast a footage released by the government of “the successful test-launch” of its new ballistic missile, Khorramshahr, a few hours after it was unveiled during a military parade here on Friday with President Hassan Rouhani and senior military officials in attendance, reports Xinhua news agency.

The report said the missile was launched late Friday, without providing further details.

The ballistic missile is capable of carrying multiple warheads, Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh, a senior commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Division, told the media on Friday.

“The missile has become smaller in size (compared to other Iranian ballistic missiles) and more tactical, and it will be operational in the near future,” Hajizadeh said without further elaboration.

On Friday, the Iranian armed forces commemorated the 1980-1988 war with Iraq by holding a parade in which Iran’s most advanced military power and abilities are showcased.

Iran also displayed other home-made advanced missiles, including ballistic missiles, which are reported to have ranges of 1,300 km to 2,000 km.


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## yavar

*Iran DM Gen Hatami: Khorramshahr IRBM ballistic missile, guided until target, penetrate ABM حاتمی*




Defense Minister Army Brigadier General Hatami: Khorramshahr IRBM ballistic missile can be guided until the "moment of destroying the target" and it can avoid and penetrate Anti-ballistic missile shield

Minister Says Iran’s New Ballistic Missile ‘Strategic Weapon’
Iran’s new homegrown ballistic missile that was unveiled on Friday can be guided through the final moments of engagement with the target, Defense Minister Brigadier General Amir Hatami said, describing it as a “strategic missile” at Iran’s disposal.
In comments on Saturday, General Hatami said that its remarkable operational range and unique features have made Khorramshahr a very agile missile.
The strategic missile can cross the enemy’s air defense zone and could be guided from the launch to the moment it hits the target, he added
http://tn.ai/1527647

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## AmirPatriot

*Khorramshahr - A Quantum Leap In Iranian Missile Technology*

Saturday, September 23, 2017





The recent Khorramshahr unveiling at the parade, the IRGC Commander Hajizadeh's statements, and the test footage have given us a raft of information and clues.

For the full analysis and blog post, please visit the link below:

http://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2017/09/khorramshahr-quantum-leap-in-iranian.html

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## Hack-Hook

A question ,it seems the tip of warhead is made of different materials .
Does it means that they use some sort of terminal guidance in the missile ?


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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> *Khorramshahr - A Quantum Leap In Iranian Missile Technology*
> 
> Saturday, September 23, 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The recent Khorramshahr unveiling at the parade, the IRGC Commander Hajizadeh's statements, and the test footage have given us a raft of information and clues.
> 
> For the full analysis and blog post, please visit the link below:
> 
> http://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2017/09/khorramshahr-quantum-leap-in-iranian.html













Clearly the new engine also uses a different type of fuel than the standard Iranian liquid fuel missiles,
It's clearly a better design for a Silo based missile, It's Vectoring Vernier's & lack of stabilizers clearly indicate advanced flight control systems,....

But I wouldn't put this as some kind of Quantum Leap in Iranian Missile Tech! According to the U.S. Iran received 19 BM-25 missiles from North Korea almost a decade ago! Although Iran's version is clearly a better more improved version compared to the Hwasong-10 but I would say Iran has had this tech for some time!

Having the Tech is one thing building the infrastructure required to produce enough fuel(Probably the N2O4) to deploy this missile in any meaningful way is another!

And I would say that would be the main reason why Iran didn't quickly bust out with it's own version of the Hwasong-10 as soon as they got it because the fuel was different & it wasn't just about making the engines more powerful! 

I personally would of liked to see Iran increase on it's solid fuel variants

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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> According to the U.S. Iran received 19 BM-25 missiles from North Korea almost a decade



Possession =/= understanding. Saudi Arabia is a clear example of this. But the fact that we are able to produce this, fly it, improve on it, shows we have mastered the technology.



VEVAK said:


> I personally would of liked to see Iran increase on it's solid fuel variants



Me too.


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## Stryker1982

AmirPatriot said:


> Possession =/= understanding. Saudi Arabia is a clear example of this. But the fact that we are able to produce this, fly it, improve on it, shows we have mastered the technology.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too.



Sardar Deghan did mention Sejjil in is speech, when he also mentioned Khoramshahr. Hopefully we'll see some development there, because the Sejjil just totally disappeared as our only long range solid fueled missile.


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## PeeD

Sejil is there, a U.S institute spread that rumour that its development stopped. Nonsense.

Point is you need much less ground crew training with the Sejil. So they don't test launch it in every manouver. For the arrogant writers of that article, it was a reason to doubt the Sejil program.

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## TheImmortal

What do people want to see from Sejil exactly?

It is Iran's most advanced solid fuel long range ballistic missile. The use of composite material and other materials that make up the missile could mean it's more expensive than other missiles thus there could be less inventory/production and its more of a strategic missile.

Furthermore, since its Iran's most advanced solid MRBM its probably not going to be shown off a lot in public until it becomes more obsolete and something more advanced comes along (Sejil-3 or next-gen solid fuel MRBM).

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> Possession =/= understanding. Saudi Arabia is a clear example of this. But the fact that we are able to produce this, fly it, improve on it, shows we have mastered the technology.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too.



Yes we have and my point is that we have mastered the technology to a point that this is not really a quantum leap! Vectoring thrusters is not new for Iran it's been deployed on most Iranian SLV's at some stage or another.
Building the various part of the engine, airframe, warhead,.... These are not new tech for Iran & Iran has had the platform in it's hands & the technological capacity to reverse engineer every part except for the fuel for some time now!

The main thing here is the N2O4 oxidizer that Iran clearly has used on these engines & since Iran has had this tech for some time I really don't see it as likely that they would have worked on improving the BM-25 if they hadn't started production or had clear plans to start production of that fuel!

At Iran's current technological capability the west and it's allies more likely fear and see Iran's Space Program (specifically Iran's ability to send various Sat's into space) as much greater threat than the expansion of current Iranian conventional Ballistic Missiles because if Iran expands their long range sensor capability that would enhance Iran's strategic capability in various ways & they can be far more tactical in deploying current stockpile 

And if Iran truly has started production of the N2O4 that tech would clearly go to Iran's Space program & looking at what Iran has done with the Safir Launcher



PeeD said:


> Sejil is there, a U.S institute spread that rumour that its development stopped. Nonsense.
> 
> Point is you need much less ground crew training with the Sejil. So they don't test launch it in every manouver. For the arrogant writers of that article, it was a reason to doubt the Sejil program.




1. Iran conducted numerous tests of the Sejil starting in 2007 a decade ago! So the idea that they didn't conduct enough tests on the Sejil is just BS! If they stopped test it's clearly because they have perfected it and there is no reason too!

2. Sejil doesn't require large amounts of fuel to be pumped into the missile so you don't need to keep them at bases equipped with large fuel storage capacity & you don't need to keep them in large quantities at one facility you can spread them across the country at far better hidden sites & there is no reason why Iran would ever show where those sites are located! And there is absolutely no reason why they would place them at sites that do like large BM bases Iran has publicized!

3.Main thing with the Koramshar Missile is the N2o4 Oxidizer and if true and Iran has started producing it, this will allow Iran to build far more capable SLV's' in smaller platforms which has nothing to do with whether or not Iran plans on continuing with the Sejil missile!

Clearly this is either propaganda or miss information or the writer just doesn't know much on the subject!

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## PeeD

@VEVAK 

Agreed. Just two points:

-N2O4 is already in operation on Iranian SLVs and apparently even later Ghadr variants.

- Sejil would probably just need warhead mating before launch either that for security reasons or more elegantly use the TVC vanes as launch security measure. You are fully right that the Sejil is the BM asset that can be anywhere around the country, without the hardened mountain base doctrine applied. This makes it tactically a real added value to the arsenal.

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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> Yes we have and my point is that we have mastered the technology to a point that this is not really a quantum leap! Vectoring thrusters is not new for Iran it's been deployed on most Iranian SLV's at some stage or another.
> Building the various part of the engine, airframe, warhead,.... These are not new tech for Iran & Iran has had the platform in it's hands & the technological capacity to reverse engineer every part except for the fuel for some time now!
> 
> The main thing here is the N2O4 oxidizer that Iran clearly has used on these engines & since Iran has had this tech for some time I really don't see it as likely that they would have worked on improving the BM-25 if they hadn't started production or had clear plans to start production of that fuel!
> 
> At Iran's current technological capability the west and it's allies more likely fear and see Iran's Space Program (specifically Iran's ability to send various Sat's into space) as much greater threat than the expansion of current Iranian conventional Ballistic Missiles because if Iran expands their long range sensor capability that would enhance Iran's strategic capability in various ways & they can be far more tactical in deploying current stockpile
> 
> And if Iran truly has started production of the N2O4 that tech would clearly go to Iran's Space program & looking at what Iran has done with the Safir Launcher


Look at the whole package, there are so many advancements. The increased diameter, the far better engine, the lack of fins, the huge throw weight to 2000 km, the MIRV. All of these are massive parts of missile technology. When you consider the bulk of Iranian strategic deterrent for the past 2-3 decades has been based on scaled up scuds, yes, it is a massive leap for us.


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> Agreed. Just two points:
> 
> -N2O4 is already in operation on Iranian SLVs and apparently even later Ghadr variants.
> 
> - Sejil would probably just need warhead mating before launch either that for security reasons or more elegantly use the TVC vanes as launch security measure. You are fully right that the Sejil is the BM asset that can be anywhere around the country, without the hardened mountain base doctrine applied. This makes it tactically a real added value to the arsenal.



In terms of storage it wouldn't make sense to keep 3 types of fuel & oxidizer for one missile so I would disagree that the Ghadr missiles use them on the 2nd stage so unless your talking about extremely limited usage on a PBV that wouldn't take up a lot of space....

As for Iranian SLV's yes it's quite possible due to the limited usage you can import it covertly or do limited production at a lab scale for limited usage which would have been a natural process in taking a new fuel into production but limited production at a lab scale doesn't always equal to large scale production that would be necessary for a new BM deployment

As for the Sejil if Iran was still testing them they would say after 10 years Iran still can't perfect it & if we don't test them because they have been already perfected they say Iran abandoned it! So your Damned if you do and Damned if you don't!

The Sejil Missile it's self as with all Solid Fuel BM is explosive & clearly not a BM Iran would keep next to each other in large bundles as with other Iranian BM!



AmirPatriot said:


> Look at the whole package, there are so many advancements. The increased diameter, the far better engine, the lack of fins, the huge throw weight to 2000 km, the MIRV. All of these are massive parts of missile technology. When you consider the bulk of Iranian strategic deterrent for the past 2-3 decades has been based on scaled up scuds, yes, it is a massive leap for us.



Yes no doubt it's a massive increase in capability! But in terms of technology it's a bundle of systems and capabilities Iran has had so it's not leap in technology for Iran!
It may be a leap in military capability & clearly gives Iran the ability to hit targets at a greater range with a higher payload but technologically it's not a leap for Iran! So I respectfully disagree!

32 years ago Iran was sending people to Syria so they can learn how to launch a Scud Missile vs today where Iran is transferring it's outdated missile technology to Syria so yes the rate of development is extremely high because Iran was behind in terms of global standards

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## AmirPatriot

@PeeD do you think concealment of Fateh-313/Zolfaqar missiles would be better if they were covered up like with the Iskander? After all, two ruddy great missiles on the top of a vehicle aren't exactly hard to spot. Or will Iran simply use "hide-shoot-hide" tactics in its mountainous terrain?


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## PeeD

It's primary a climate thing. Container launched missiles are also primary for climate, secondary for faster/easier start. Iran doesn't have that climate issue.

A Iskander TEL is too large and specific to be mistaken for a ordinary civilian truck. A Fateh/Zolfaghar TEL with a cover might still be misidentified as a civilian truck.

However concealing the TEL is not the main method, not for the twin TEL. Its the hide shoot hide method, as you call it, that will be used by this off-road capable TEL.

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## skyshadow

تصاویر کمتر دیده شده از راکت های جدید ایران
راکت غدیر ضد زره با سر جنگیدو مرحله ای و راکت فجر چهار نسخه هدایت شونده و موشک توفان 6 و 5 و 4

















































و همچنین نشان دادن برد موشک غدر 110 در مستندی در تلویزیون ملی ایران و اعلام برد 3000 کیلومتری برای این موشک





مشخص شدن موشک های استفاده شده در s300 ایران با برد 200کیلومتر

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## skyshadow

موشک صاعقه

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## skyshadow

Hi my friends, I have a video about the Khoramshahr missile, and it says inside the video that one missile and three targets. Pointing that it has 3 warheads But this site does not allow me to upload.


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## AmirPatriot

skyshadow said:


> Hi my friends, I have a video about the Khoramshahr missile, and it says inside the video that one missile and three targets. Pointing that it has 3 warheads But this site does not allow me to upload.


https://streamable.com/

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## yavar

*Iran IRGC chief Gen. Jafari: US sanctions will increase our missiles range سرلشکر جعفری برد بیشتر*

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## yavar




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## mohsen

first unsuccessful test of solid fuel rocket "Nazeat", about 3 decade ago:
*تست راکت نازعات*

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## AmirPatriot

@PeeD do you think Khorramshahr could be an effort to increase the payload-cost ratio of Iranian SSMs? Would you think a single Khorramshahr+TEL costs more or less than 3 Qadr MRBMs with 3 TELs?


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## PeeD

Of course it is, plus it decreases TEL lenght to even more resemble a civilan truck.

It could even use a full bus system for 3 non-submunition warheads plus an advanced guidance system and still be cheaper than 3 Ghadr.

A good long lifetime workhorse for orbital bombardment.
A larger RD-250 based missile would approach the civilian size restrictions but still a possibility for something even better than the Khorramshahr.

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## AmirPatriot

*Iran's Military Posture Needs An Update*

By Amir Saturday, November 18, 2017
For decades, Iran's military has been geared towards countering 2 enemies - the US, and Israel. Against Israel, a large ballistic missile arsenal, coupled with a powerful Hezbollah deters Israel from aggression. Against the US, an asymmetric military designed to inflict politically unacceptable losses, while slowing down any invasion or even occupation.

This approach has been limited in some aspects, but recent changes in threats have highlighted these limitations. The most obvious new threat is, of course, a belligerent and rapidly militarising Saudi Arabia.




THAAD

Read the full blog post at the link below:

https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2017/11/irans-military-posture-needs-update.html

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> *Iran's Military Posture Needs An Update*
> 
> By Amir Saturday, November 18, 2017
> For decades, Iran's military has been geared towards countering 2 enemies - the US, and Israel. Against Israel, a large ballistic missile arsenal, coupled with a powerful Hezbollah deters Israel from aggression. Against the US, an asymmetric military designed to inflict politically unacceptable losses, while slowing down any invasion or even occupation.
> 
> This approach has been limited in some aspects, but recent changes in threats have highlighted these limitations. The most obvious new threat is, of course, a belligerent and rapidly militarising Saudi Arabia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAAD
> 
> Read the full blog post at the link below:
> 
> https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2017/11/irans-military-posture-needs-update.html



1.The article makes wrong assumptions about cruise missiles!
The reason the U.S. chose Cruise Missiles is mainly due to weight, size, range (comparatively), footprint....

Pershing-2 Missile came in at 7.5 tones vs Tomahawk 1.3 tones also the diameter of a Pershing launcher would be much greater, launching them off ships much more difficult and an advanced country could potentially calculate the potential radius of the launch site of the BM! So at the end of the day you can launch more cruise missiles using your missile cruisers warship with a smaller footprint & they are much safer to store & launch! 

BUT, Cruise Missiles have "always" been easier to intercept! Both in the past and today! & yes Iran should increase production of LACM but not as a replacement!

Saudi's spent $15 Billion USD on the THAAD for seven fire units each with a Raytheon AN/TPY-2 radar, two mobile tactical stations (with two spares for a total of 16), and six launchers (with two spares for a total of 44), 360 interceptor missiles!


2.Best option for Iran is to increase funding for weapons production & R&D to ~$21 Billion USD per year which will allow you to focus on various aspects of your military & create jobs in various fields BUT If you can't or refuse to do that at the very least they need to increase spending from the current $6B per year to $12 Billion and focus on increased spending on 4 main fields 

1.$1.5 Billion for Air Superiority fighter production or procurement on a yearly bases 
2.$1.5 Billion Increase on BM and LACM production (on top of what your spending today)
3.$1.5 Billion USD Increase on Air Defense equipment
4.$1.5 Billion USD Increase on remote controlled and autonomous systems of various types UAV, UCAV, UGV,...

3.Author makes another false assumption that you can somehow fight a humane war with Saudi Arabia where you have the luxury of only targeting the Saudi Military!
Look at what the Saudi's are doing in Yemen, even with a major military supremacy and full air superiority they are not focused on Yemen's military & military targets only! 

In a war with Saudi Arabia Iran will have to focus on Power plants, Oil Facilities, Refineries, pipelines, Naval Ports, food, water & fuel depots, the Saudi Royal family and it's assets, telecommunication & various other targets that are NOT military targets!

If Iran wastes it's missiles on focusing on Saudi Air Force bases they'll need at least 100 direct hits on each Air Force base that's 1000 direct hits for 10 bases (You'll need 1000's of missiles to get 1000 direct hits) just to take out 10 base's with no guarantee that there were fighters on the ground at those bases at the time your missiles hit! So it's a waist of time and resources and I'm not saying you don't target them, you just can't afford to focus on them using your missiles!

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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> Author



I'm the author. You can use direct terms.



VEVAK said:


> The reason the U.S. chose Cruise Missiles is mainly due to weight, size, range (comparatively), footprint....
> 
> Pershing-2 Missile came in at 7.5 tones vs Tomahawk 1.3 tones also the diameter of a Pershing launcher would be much greater, launching them off ships much more difficult and an advanced country could potentially calculate the potential radius of the launch site of the BM! So at the end of the day you can launch more cruise missiles using your missile cruisers warship with a smaller footprint & they are much safer to store & launch!



Those are very good reasons, but my reasons are correct as well, and I think you are missing the point. I was more talking about why cruise missiles are used over air power, and that is for the reasons I gave. BMs are far more sensitive because they are, with major powers, thought of almost exclusively as nuclear delivery platforms. Hence the multitude of treaties on BM arms control.

I think I should have added this, but a big reason why Iran should include cruise missiles in its forces is that it diversifies the threat the Saudis have to neutralise, making it harder for them to do so.



VEVAK said:


> BUT, Cruise Missiles have "always" been easier to intercept! Both in the past and today! & yes Iran should increase production of LACM but not as a replacement!



I agree, but I didn't say otherwise.



VEVAK said:


> 2.Best option for Iran is to increase funding for weapons production & R&D to ~$21 Billion USD per year which will allow you to focus on various aspects of your military & create jobs in various fields BUT If you can't or refuse to do that at the very least they need to increase spending from the current $6B per year to $12 Billion and focus on increased spending on 4 main fields
> 
> 1.$1.5 Billion for Air Superiority fighter production or procurement on a yearly bases
> 2.$1.5 Billion Increase on BM and LACM production (on top of what your spending today)
> 3.$1.5 Billion USD Increase on Air Defense equipment
> 4.$1.5 Billion USD Increase on remote controlled and autonomous systems of various types UAV, UCAV, UGV,...



Tooooo many numberrrrrrrs



VEVAK said:


> 3.Author makes another false assumption that you can somehow fight a humane war with Saudi Arabia where you have the luxury of only targeting the Saudi Military!
> Look at what the Saudi's are doing in Yemen, even with a major military supremacy and full air superiority they are not focused on Yemen's military & military targets only!
> 
> In a war with Saudi Arabia Iran will have to focus on Power plants, Oil Facilities, Refineries, pipelines, Naval Ports, food, water & fuel depots, the Saudi Royal family and it's assets, telecommunication & various other targets that are NOT military targets!



Saudi Arabia is not Yemen. We cannot do whatever we like without escalating beyond what we can.

There is a concept called escalation dominance. Whatever force has the most raw military power, has escalation dominance. If your enemy has escalation dominance, you don't. So you can't escalate without serious repercussions, whereas they can. The Saudis by themselves don't have escalation dominance, but with the backing of the US, they do. Suppose some sort of conflict flares up and Saudi sinks a major Iranian naval vessel, or bombs a major airbase (however unlikely, bear with me, its a scenario). What do you suppose we do, with the US towering behind Saudi? Shoot missiles at Riyadh? Jeddah? Damman? That's just asking for the world to hate you, and they'd probably be fair in doing so. Also, that's just asking for the US to join in the war. So you don't escalate. You sink some major Saudi naval vessels, or decimate a Saudi *military *airbase.

If the Saudis, however, bomb oil production facilities in Ahvaz... BYE BYE DHAHRAN.

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> I'm the author. You can use direct terms.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are very good reasons, but my reasons are correct as well, and I think you are missing the point. I was more talking about why cruise missiles are used over air power, and that is for the reasons I gave. BMs are far more sensitive because they are, with major powers, thought of almost exclusively as nuclear delivery platforms. Hence the multitude of treaties on BM arms control.
> 
> I think I should have added this, but a big reason why Iran should include cruise missiles in its forces is that it diversifies the threat the Saudis have to neutralise, making it harder for them to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Saudi Arabia is not Yemen. We cannot do whatever we like without escalating beyond what we can.
> 
> There is a concept called escalation dominance. Whatever force has the most raw military power, has escalation dominance. If your enemy has escalation dominance, you don't. So you can't escalate without serious repercussions, whereas they can. The Saudis by themselves don't have escalation dominance, but with the backing of the US, they do. Suppose some sort of conflict flares up and Saudi sinks a major Iranian naval vessel, or bombs a major airbase (however unlikely, bear with me, its a scenario). What do you suppose we do, with the US towering behind Saudi? Shoot missiles at Riyadh? Jeddah? Damman? That's just asking for the world to hate you, and they'd probably be fair in doing so. Also, that's just asking for the US to join in the war. So you don't escalate. You sink some major Saudi naval vessels, or decimate a Saudi *military *airbase.
> 
> If the Saudis, however, bomb oil production facilities in Ahvaz... BYE BYE DHAHRAN.



Neither Cruise Missiles or Ballistic Missiles will be able to replace Air Power! Harden Targets, Carpet Bombings, Air Defense (Escort, intercept,....)
To top that off within the next 20 years continued advancements of directed energy weapons & countermeasures will further increase the need for an advanced Air Force So Iran needs to start planning for that as well!

And the reason Ballistic Missiles pushes buttons globally has NOTHING to do with NUKES it is because they are hard to intercept & allow for little warning to scramble your air force! 

As for Iran's retaliation, your talking cities! Iran is not going to target cities! It's absurd and a waist of missiles!

If Saudi's target an Iranian Airbase & Sinks an Iranian Naval vessel I would say Iran should "at the very least" respond by

1. Hitting 1 Major Saudi refinery or Oil facility (within 700km regardless of what city it's in with 1-2 direct hits at least)
2. Hitting 1 Saudi Power plant (1 direct hit)
2. Targeting Saudi flagged warships with Subs (Preferably outside the Persian Gulf if possible)
3. Drop a few missiles on a Saudi Air Force bases (within 700km) NO MORE than 20 Missiles
4. Dropping a Missile on the Crown Princes mansion (one of his houses within 700km with one direct hit)
5. Dropping 1 missile with cluster warheads on a Saudi Naval Port off the Red Sea but NOT near or around Jaddeh or Mekka 

And if the Saudi's don't get the message 1st time around you have to go in for a shock and awe mass missile strikes!

What Iran CAN'T do in such a scenario is restrict it's response to a Saudi Air Force base unless YOU'R 99% positive that you can take out at least 50 or more of their fighters & a few support aircraft in response with under 100 missiles(-800km)! 

Fact is people that don't like Iran will dislike Iran regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do! And same goes for Saudi Arabia! 
Iran's response will need to be decisive & not restrictive to make a point particularly to the UAE leaders! 

And what part of Saudi behavior makes you think they are rational thinking people? If they start a war by attacking an Iranian vessel & an Iranian Air Force base is all the prof you need that they don't think rationally! And it's they who started the war NOT us in your scenario!

The escalation scenario your talking about can only be a factor in border skirmishes with attacks only in and around the boarder area & not against major military bases like an Air Force base!
Hitting an Air Force base is a declaration of full scale war not some small skirmish that could lead to war!

U.S. bombed Iraq on a yearly bases between 92-2002 and it didn't much matter that Iraq didn't escalate so unless you wanna site back and watch them take you down piece by piece then you have to respond decisively!

And in a war between Iran & Saudi Arabia I would say the U.S. would like to see Saudi facilities hit and destroyed the more damage Iran make the more money they make! 

A long drawn out war with tit for tat strikes allows the U.S. to come in at the end and finish it towards Saudi Favor but a quick decisive blow by Iran with a Shock and awe mass missile attack could prompted peace talks to end the conflict, the U.S. would be happy because they'll get a bunch of contracts to rebuild Saudi Arabia, you can change Saudi leadership since the crown price has already made plenty of enemies at home & U.S. can take Saudi money without giving them weapons which will also make Israel happy as well because Iran's lost a good potion of it's missile stockpile & Saudi's won't be rearming anytime soon!


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## N_Al40

In the event of a Saudi-Iranian war/skirmish breaking out, Iran will (and has subtly hinted, I'll elaborate later) have to strike multiple high-value targets at once, from the West to the East coast of Saudi Arabia. High-value targets will naturally include Saudi Military bases (air force and radar installations in particular), Oil refineries, and Critical Infrastructure assets that form the life-line for the Saudi State.

Air force bases being neutralized within the high intensity phase of the war will alleviate a significant risk to Iran, as that is Saudi Arabia's main means of attacking Iran. However, in order to achieve maximum damage, the radar installations of the PAC-2, PAC-3, and THAAD systems must be destroyed to allow safe passage for our BMs and CMs. With the radars that detect and target our offensive capabilities gone, the launchers of the mentioned air defense systems will be mere decorations.

Furthermore, oil refineries and ports (Ras Tanura, Dhahran, Abqaiq, Yanbu, Jeddah) must be dealt heavy damage to make them out of use, if not destroyed completely, to stem their revenue and thus inhibit to whatever degree possible their military spending on resupplying their army, ordering maintenance of their arms, and the possible reconstruction of damages military sites. Though this is only to be considered if the hypothetical war stretches out for a long enough period of time to allow for such arms deliveries and maintenance/repairs to be carried; which I view as highly unlikely.

Moreover, with regards to critical infrastructure, they must be targeted to demoralize the Saudi populace. This isn't because I have some hatred or vengeance towards them or anything at all, in fact I warmly embrace people regardless of where their from or the political stances they hold, even though I may disagree with their respective government policies (in the case of Saudi, I very much do). But back to the main point; from my observations, and from analysts and journalist who cover Saudi politically, specifically looking at how popular the current Saudi policies are towards Iran with the Saudi populace; it is strikingly clear that they blindly, without second thought believe Iran to be public enemy no. 1, view Iran as a threat, don't mind confronting Iran militarily, and above all, have the hubris to think that a war with IRI can be won by them because they have Uncle Sam's watered down toys at their disposal.
It represents a dangerous level of ignorance and arrogance among the Saudi people. This links back to the main point about targeting Critical Infrastructure assets (CIAs), such as the desalination plant in Jeddah, power plants, their electricity grid, to name a few. This should break the will of the Saudi's to fight for their country. A nation of brainwashed people who underestimate a potential adversary, will line up to fight IRI in the tens of thousands, only prolonging the conflict. By hitting CIAs, the Saudi populace will quickly come to the conclusion that a war with IRI isn't worth it and is significantly impacting their livelihoods. It is said that if the Jeddah desalination plant is destroyed, the city will run out of water in just 11 days. Who would want to fight then?

Finally, going back to the point in the first paragraph about Iran striking multiple targets at once: I saw this documentary on IRIB (available on Youtube) about Iran's missile silos, the commander of one of the silos said the following "All the missiles in our silos have predetermined targets, with the press of the launch button, they will immediately go to strike their intended targets". Combine this with the fact that Iran has mobile BMs on TELs, and its safe to assume that multiple targets, across different sectors of the Saudi Nation will be targeted at one, complicating their efforts to defend from IRI's BMs and CMs.


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## yavar




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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> Neither Cruise Missiles or Ballistic Missiles will be able to replace Air Power! Harden Targets, Carpet Bombings, Air Defense (Escort, intercept,....)



The sky is blue, the earth is round, rain is wet etc.



VEVAK said:


> And the reason Ballistic Missiles pushes buttons globally has NOTHING to do with NUKES it is because they are hard to intercept & allow for little warning to scramble your air force!



Read up a bit on cold war arms control treaties in relation to ballistic missiles and then come and tell me how much they are/aren't related to nuclear weapons.



VEVAK said:


> If Saudi's target an Iranian Airbase & Sinks an Iranian Naval vessel I would say Iran should "at the very least" respond by
> 
> 1. Hitting 1 Major Saudi refinery or Oil facility (within 700km regardless of what city it's in with 1-2 direct hits at least)
> 2. Hitting 1 Saudi Power plant (1 direct hit)
> 2. Targeting Saudi flagged warships with Subs (Preferably outside the Persian Gulf if possible)
> 3. Drop a few missiles on a Saudi Air Force bases (within 700km) NO MORE than 20 Missiles
> 4. Dropping a Missile on the Crown Princes mansion (one of his houses within 700km with one direct hit)
> 5. Dropping 1 missile with cluster warheads on a Saudi Naval Port off the Red Sea but NOT near or around Jaddeh or Mekka



Most of those are industrial targets. I don't think you are understanding the concept of escalation dominance.



VEVAK said:


> What Iran CAN'T do in such a scenario is restrict it's response to a Saudi Air Force base unless YOU'R 99% positive that you can take out at least 50 or more of their fighters & a few support aircraft in response with under 100 missiles(-800km)!
> 
> Fact is people that don't like Iran will dislike Iran regardless of what Iran does or doesn't do! And same goes for Saudi Arabia!
> Iran's response will need to be decisive & not restrictive to make a point particularly to the UAE leaders!
> 
> And what part of Saudi behavior makes you think they are rational thinking people? If they start a war by attacking an Iranian vessel & an Iranian Air Force base is all the prof you need that they don't think rationally! And it's they who started the war NOT us in your scenario!



Fairness and setting examples are not important here. If a country is forced into a war when it cannot outright capitulate the enemy and make them surrender everything (as in actually invade that country), the objective is to end the war as quickly as possible, paying the least material, economic and political costs and taking the least risk. You don't go escalating a war you wish never happened in the first place.



VEVAK said:


> The escalation scenario your talking about can only be a factor in border skirmishes with attacks only in and around the boarder area



Escalation dominance is a strategic concept. It is not limited to minor "border skirmishes". Its like if some kid calls you gay and you knock him out cold. Whoops, his dad is Anthony Joshua. What the hell are you gonna do now? Probably wish you'd just ignored him, he's a f*cking kid after all.

Same case with Saudi. They bomb an airbase? Fine, bomb their airbase back. Sink a warship? Sink 1 or 2 of there's back. They started it, just retaliating in equal measure is embarrassing enough for them to want to cut their losses.



VEVAK said:


> U.S. bombed Iraq on a yearly bases between 92-2002 and it didn't much matter that Iraq didn't escalate so unless you wanna site back and watch them take you down piece by piece then you have to respond decisively!
> 
> And in a war between Iran & Saudi Arabia I would say the U.S. would like to see Saudi facilities hit and destroyed the more damage Iran make the more money they make!
> 
> A long drawn out war with tit for tat strikes allows the U.S. to come in at the end and finish it towards Saudi Favor but a quick decisive blow by Iran with a Shock and awe mass missile attack could prompted peace talks to end the conflict, the U.S. would be happy because they'll get a bunch of contracts to rebuild Saudi Arabia, you can change Saudi leadership since the crown price has already made plenty of enemies at home & U.S. can take Saudi money without giving them weapons which will also make Israel happy as well because Iran's lost a good potion of it's missile stockpile & Saudi's won't be rearming anytime soon!



I've already said. There is no fantasy situation where we can just missile the shit out of Saudi Arabia and expect there to be no consequences. There is no win-win-win situation.

You don't need to force the Saudis to back down by escalating. That is too risky. You work diplomatically to encourage the UN to impose a ceasefire, you talk big to deter an enemy escalation, and you milk the war for all it is worth PR wise.

Think about why the Saudis would start a war in the first place. Would it be an escalation of a non-direct conflict into a direct conflict? Would it be an attempt to reduce Iranian influence? Or damage Iranian prestige? Pick and choose. Either of these objectives are relatively easy to dismantle, sabotage, and deny. Without escalation.

Certainly it wouldn't be a land grab, or an attempt at direct invasion.



N_Al40 said:


> In the event of a Saudi-Iranian war/skirmish breaking out, Iran will (and has subtly hinted, I'll elaborate later) have to strike multiple high-value targets at once, from the West to the East coast of Saudi Arabia. High-value targets will naturally include Saudi Military bases (air force and radar installations in particular), Oil refineries, and Critical Infrastructure assets that form the life-line for the Saudi State.
> 
> Air force bases being neutralized within the high intensity phase of the war will alleviate a significant risk to Iran, as that is Saudi Arabia's main means of attacking Iran. However, in order to achieve maximum damage, the radar installations of the PAC-2, PAC-3, and THAAD systems must be destroyed to allow safe passage for our BMs and CMs. With the radars that detect and target our offensive capabilities gone, the launchers of the mentioned air defense systems will be mere decorations.
> 
> Furthermore, oil refineries and ports (Ras Tanura, Dhahran, Abqaiq, Yanbu, Jeddah) must be dealt heavy damage to make them out of use, if not destroyed completely, to stem their revenue and thus inhibit to whatever degree possible their military spending on resupplying their army, ordering maintenance of their arms, and the possible reconstruction of damages military sites. Though this is only to be considered if the hypothetical war stretches out for a long enough period of time to allow for such arms deliveries and maintenance/repairs to be carried; which I view as highly unlikely.
> 
> Moreover, with regards to critical infrastructure, they must be targeted to demoralize the Saudi populace. This isn't because I have some hatred or vengeance towards them or anything at all, in fact I warmly embrace people regardless of where their from or the political stances they hold, even though I may disagree with their respective government policies (in the case of Saudi, I very much do). But back to the main point; from my observations, and from analysts and journalist who cover Saudi politically, specifically looking at how popular the current Saudi policies are towards Iran with the Saudi populace; it is strikingly clear that they blindly, without second thought believe Iran to be public enemy no. 1, view Iran as a threat, don't mind confronting Iran militarily, and above all, have the hubris to think that a war with IRI can be won by them because they have Uncle Sam's watered down toys at their disposal.
> It represents a dangerous level of ignorance and arrogance among the Saudi people. This links back to the main point about targeting Critical Infrastructure assets (CIAs), such as the desalination plant in Jeddah, power plants, their electricity grid, to name a few. This should break the will of the Saudi's to fight for their country. A nation of brainwashed people who underestimate a potential adversary, will line up to fight IRI in the tens of thousands, only prolonging the conflict. By hitting CIAs, the Saudi populace will quickly come to the conclusion that a war with IRI isn't worth it and is significantly impacting their livelihoods. It is said that if the Jeddah desalination plant is destroyed, the city will run out of water in just 11 days. Who would want to fight then?
> 
> Finally, going back to the point in the first paragraph about Iran striking multiple targets at once: I saw this documentary on IRIB (available on Youtube) about Iran's missile silos, the commander of one of the silos said the following "All the missiles in our silos have predetermined targets, with the press of the launch button, they will immediately go to strike their intended targets". Combine this with the fact that Iran has mobile BMs on TELs, and its safe to assume that multiple targets, across different sectors of the Saudi Nation will be targeted at one, complicating their efforts to defend from IRI's BMs and CMs.



Why escalate?

It is up to the aggressor to complete their objectives. All we have to do is to deny them from achieving those objectives. In any situation, they aggressor wants to make it look like the defender lost. Deny that, and you've won the war, simply by not losing.

Saudi are not a superpower. They aren't going to invade our territory (at the very least, not our mainland). So the extent of their action would be small. But we aren't a superpower either. All we need to do is not lose, and they've lost the war.

I think you and VEVAK are making the same mistake Iran made in 1982. In 1982, Iran had already kicked the Iraqis out of Iran. Iraq was begging for a ceasefire. At this stage, Iran should have accepted it. Iran didn't, everyone flooded Saddam with arms and cash, and the war dragged on for another 6 years. I guarantee you, your decisions would have the same result.

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> The sky is blue, the earth is round, rain is wet etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Read up a bit on cold war arms control treaties in relation to ballistic missiles and then come and tell me how much they are/aren't related to nuclear weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of those are industrial targets. I don't think you are understanding the concept of escalation dominance.
> 
> 
> 
> Fairness and setting examples are not important here. If a country is forced into a war when it cannot outright capitulate the enemy and make them surrender everything (as in actually invade that country), the objective is to end the war as quickly as possible, paying the least material, economic and political costs and taking the least risk. You don't go escalating a war you wish never happened in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> Escalation dominance is a strategic concept. It is not limited to minor "border skirmishes". Its like if some kid calls you gay and you knock him out cold. Whoops, his dad is Anthony Joshua. What the hell are you gonna do now? Probably wish you'd just ignored him, he's a f*cking kid after all.
> 
> Same case with Saudi. They bomb an airbase? Fine, bomb their airbase back. Sink a warship? Sink 1 or 2 of there's back. They started it, just retaliating in equal measure is embarrassing enough for them to want to cut their losses.
> 
> 
> 
> I've already said. There is no fantasy situation where we can just missile the shit out of Saudi Arabia and expect there to be no consequences. There is no win-win-win situation.
> 
> You don't need to force the Saudis to back down by escalating. That is too risky. You work diplomatically to encourage the UN to impose a ceasefire, you talk big to deter an enemy escalation, and you milk the war for all it is worth PR wise.
> 
> Think about why the Saudis would start a war in the first place. Would it be an escalation of a non-direct conflict into a direct conflict? Would it be an attempt to reduce Iranian influence? Or damage Iranian prestige? Pick and choose. Either of these objectives are relatively easy to dismantle, sabotage, and deny. Without escalation.
> 
> Certainly it wouldn't be a land grab, or an attempt at direct invasion.
> 
> .



​*The ONLY reason the U.S. didn't take military action against Iranian Nuclear facilities is because THEY KNEW with a high degree of certainty that Iran wouldn't site back and think about escalation and would respond harshly!! So it's an absurd theory & it's a theory that doesn't conform to how Iran's military is structured*! ​
Your escalation scenario with only a proportionate response is what the U.S. HOPED would be Iran's response!!! It's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! Not with the U.S. and NOT with Saudi Arabia! 

And here is why:

1.Iran doesn't have a strong conventional Air Power advanced enough to go with the tit for tat tactics your suggesting! And Iranian missiles would need to be fired in such numbers that would overwhelm any Air Defense system and they would need to hurt & destroying some concrete at an airbase without taking out any air assets doesn't hurt!

2.Saudi's keep their fighters in heavily fortified bunkers & if they were to plan an attack on Iran they would move most of their assets to bases out of the range of Iranian precision guided ballistic missiles! 
I bet you haven't seen a lot of sat images of Saudi Air Force bases & fighter bunkers! Destroying some cement & concrete at an empty Air Base would only embolden the Saudi's to continue down that path....

3.Over 70% of Iran's exports go through the Persian Gulf and without an Advanced conventional Air Force the Saudi's can maintain full Air Superiority over the Persian Gulf & Iran destroying some concrete at a few Saudi Airbases wouldn't change that! Also, Saudi Naval ports are mostly in the Red Sea not in the Persian Gulf so Iran's response would need to hurt the Saudi's financially for them to get the message!

4.Saudi's produce more Oil and have more money than Iran & have international ports outside the Persian Gulf & can maintain a tit for tat response for much longer periods. Making it a good choice for them if Iran adheres to those kind of tactics but clearly an illogical choice for Iran! 

5.This idea you have in your head that Saudi Air Force is going to just fly past major Iranian Naval port & bases and only target the Air Force is NOTHING but a fictional example!

Yes if the Saudi's hit an Iranian Frigate at sea you can reciprocate in kind, if the Saudi's board an Iranian cargo ship you can again respond in kind without a full scales war & then go to the UN.... but bombing an Iranian Air Force base is a completely different story! You can't bomb someone's Air Force base and site back and claim that you never intended to start a war! 

Major Air Force bases in the South are: 
Omediah Air Base (Khomaini port)
Busher Air Base 
Bandar Abbas Air Base
Chah Bahar Air Base
All of which are near and close to Major Iranian Ports, Naval bases, powerplants,... so if any of those bases are hit Iran can't be conservative and will have to automatically assume that they intended to hit the ports & other assets but failed...

If the Saudi's bomb an Iranian Air Force base it would be absurd to expect Iran to limit it's self to Saudi Air Force bases! War's will never be fair or humane! 

So if ANY major Iranian Military base is attack, Iran will have to send a clear message & the message has to be loud and clear and it would need to hurt & then Iran goes to the UN and makes it clear that Iran's response to any further attack on Iranian territory will be met with a disproportionate & decisive response!

Firing 100's of missiles to destroy some concrete at a Saudi Air Base that more likely than not was emptied of any aircraft of worth prior to the start of the conflict would be stupid and absurd!


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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> Why escalate?
> 
> It is up to the aggressor to complete their objectives. All we have to do is to deny them from achieving those objectives. In any situation, they aggressor wants to make it look like the defender lost. Deny that, and you've won the war, simply by not losing.
> 
> Saudi are not a superpower. They aren't going to invade our territory (at the very least, not our mainland). So the extent of their action would be small. But we aren't a superpower either. All we need to do is not lose, and they've lost the war.
> 
> I think you and VEVAK are making the same mistake Iran made in 1982. In 1982, Iran had already kicked the Iraqis out of Iran. Iraq was begging for a ceasefire. At this stage, Iran should have accepted it. Iran didn't, everyone flooded Saddam with arms and cash, and the war dragged on for another 6 years. I guarantee you, your decisions would have the same result.



Why escalate? Easy, History!

1.If Iranian military leaders thought like you, the U.S. would have attacked Iran and carried out military strikes against Iran on a yearly bases in the past decade! 

2.U.S. bombed Iraq between 1992-2002 on a yearly bases and I would say the main reason these attacks never ended and continued until they led to an easy invasion in 2003 was because Iraq couldn't or wouldn't escalate!

3.In WW2 when the Japanese hit Purl Harbor, what did the U.S. do? They responded harshly and disproportionately which led to a quick end to the war! 

4.Responding in kind especially against a country that has far more money than you do is NOT a logical response! Iran will have to go after Saudi money and wasting large number of missiles on Saudi Air Bases to destroy some concrete that will be rebuilt within a few months is really NOT a logical response! 

Also, the assumption that the Saudi's would choose an Iranian Air Base to hit is purely a fictional example with no logic behind it because the Saudi's don't need to hit Iranian Air Bases to maintain Air Superiority over the Persian Gulf & they wouldn't put their fighters at risk against Iranian Air Defense just to hit an Iranian Air Base in the south just so they feel better... If anything, their main target would be Bandar Abbas Naval Base! 

In terms of Media propaganda I don't see how anyone (Regular Joe's) would see or treat an attack on an Iranian Naval Base or a Missile Base any differently than an attack on an Iranian Air Force base so more likely than not Bandar Abbas would be the main target and Iran houses over 70% of it's blue water capability at that base at any given time! 
And no regular Joe is going to say" O' attacking Iran's Air Force is not really a declaration of full scale war but attacking Iranian Naval base well that's just over the line and unacceptable" 
For propaganda purposes they are the same thing but in terms of actual military capability it's like night and day! 

So how do you expect Iran to act if overnight ~50% of it's blue water capability is taken out?

As for the propaganda Pro-Saudi propaganda & western media will make the attack out to be a limited attack on a single Iranian Naval Base regardless of Iran's response! 

Trust me Iran's response is NOT going to be proportionate or limited to Saudi Air Force and Naval bases even if they only hit an Air Base!!

And you wanna talk about mistakes of the Iran-Iraq war before the War started the Iraqi's had massed their troops on Iranian boarders! If Iranian leadership had drawn a line in the sand and said we will consider any further incursion as a full scale war & carried out a massive strike against Iraqi targets before the war started more likely than NOT Saddam would have realized that he miscalculated and would have never attempted the invasion in the 1st place!
So you say we could have ended the war in 1982, my response to that would be we could have ended the war in 1980 before it even began if Iranian leaders were more decisive & would have ordered the Air Force to carry out a major attack instead of allowing Saddam to mass troops on the boarder with continued boarder skirmishes!

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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> *The ONLY reason the U.S. didn't take military action against Iranian Nuclear facilities is because THEY KNEW with a high degree of certainty that Iran wouldn't site back and think about escalation and would respond harshly!! So it's an absurd theory & it's a theory that doesn't conform to how Iran's military is structured*! ​
> Your escalation scenario with only a proportionate response is what the U.S. HOPED would be Iran's response!!! It's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! Not with the U.S. and NOT with Saudi Arabia!
> 
> And here is why:
> 
> 1.Iran doesn't have a strong conventional Air Power advanced enough to go with the tit for tat tactics your suggesting! And Iranian missiles would need to be fired in such numbers that would overwhelm any Air Defense system and they would need to hurt & destroying some concrete at an airbase without taking out any air assets doesn't hurt!
> 
> 2.Saudi's keep their fighters in heavily fortified bunkers & if they were to plan an attack on Iran they would move most of their assets to bases out of the range of Iranian precision guided ballistic missiles!
> I bet you haven't seen a lot of sat images of Saudi Air Force bases & fighter bunkers! Destroying some cement & concrete at an empty Air Base would only embolden the Saudi's to continue down that path....
> 
> 3.Over 70% of Iran's exports go through the Persian Gulf and without an Advanced conventional Air Force the Saudi's can maintain full Air Superiority over the Persian Gulf & Iran destroying some concrete at a few Saudi Airbases wouldn't change that! Also, Saudi Naval ports are mostly in the Red Sea not in the Persian Gulf so Iran's response would need to hurt the Saudi's financially for them to get the message!
> 
> 4.Saudi's produce more Oil and have more money than Iran & have international ports outside the Persian Gulf & can maintain a tit for tat response for much longer periods. Making it a good choice for them if Iran adheres to those kind of tactics but clearly an illogical choice for Iran!
> 
> 5.This idea you have in your head that Saudi Air Force is going to just fly past major Iranian Naval port & bases and only target the Air Force is NOTHING but a fictional example!
> 
> Yes if the Saudi's hit an Iranian Frigate at sea you can reciprocate in kind, if the Saudi's board an Iranian cargo ship you can again respond in kind without a full scales war & then go to the UN.... but bombing an Iranian Air Force base is a completely different story! You can't bomb someone's Air Force base and site back and claim that you never intended to start a war!
> 
> Major Air Force bases in the South are:
> Omediah Air Base (Khomaini port)
> Busher Air Base
> Bandar Abbas Air Base
> Chah Bahar Air Base
> All of which are near and close to Major Iranian Ports, Naval bases, powerplants,... so if any of those bases are hit Iran can't be conservative and will have to automatically assume that they intended to hit the ports & other assets but failed...
> 
> If the Saudi's bomb an Iranian Air Force base it would be absurd to expect Iran to limit it's self to Saudi Air Force bases! War's will never be fair or humane!
> 
> So if ANY major Iranian Military base is attack, Iran will have to send a clear message & the message has to be loud and clear and it would need to hurt & then Iran goes to the UN and makes it clear that Iran's response to any further attack on Iranian territory will be met with a disproportionate & decisive response!
> 
> Firing 100's of missiles to destroy some concrete at a Saudi Air Base that more likely than not was emptied of any aircraft of worth prior to the start of the conflict would be stupid and absurd!





VEVAK said:


> Why escalate? Easy, History!
> 
> 1.If Iranian military leaders thought like you, the U.S. would have attacked Iran and carried out military strikes against Iran on a yearly bases in the past decade!
> 
> 2.U.S. bombed Iraq between 1992-2002 on a yearly bases and I would say the main reason these attacks never ended and continued until they led to an easy invasion in 2003 was because Iraq couldn't or wouldn't escalate!
> 
> 3.In WW2 when the Japanese hit Purl Harbor, what did the U.S. do? They responded harshly and disproportionately which led to a quick end to the war!
> 
> 4.Responding in kind especially against a country that has far more money than you do is NOT a logical response! Iran will have to go after Saudi money and wasting large number of missiles on Saudi Air Bases to destroy some concrete that will be rebuilt within a few months is really NOT a logical response!
> 
> Also, the assumption that the Saudi's would choose an Iranian Air Base to hit is purely a fictional example with no logic behind it because the Saudi's don't need to hit Iranian Air Bases to maintain Air Superiority over the Persian Gulf & they wouldn't put their fighters at risk against Iranian Air Defense just to hit an Iranian Air Base in the south just so they feel better... If anything, their main target would be Bandar Abbas Naval Base!
> 
> In terms of Media propaganda I don't see how anyone (Regular Joe's) would see or treat an attack on an Iranian Naval Base or a Missile Base any differently than an attack on an Iranian Air Force base so more likely than not Bandar Abbas would be the main target and Iran houses over 70% of it's blue water capability at that base at any given time!
> And no regular Joe is going to say" O' attacking Iran's Air Force is not really a declaration of full scale war but attacking Iranian Naval base well that's just over the line and unacceptable"
> For propaganda purposes they are the same thing but in terms of actual military capability it's like night and day!
> 
> So how do you expect Iran to act if overnight ~50% of it's blue water capability is taken out?
> 
> As for the propaganda Pro-Saudi propaganda & western media will make the attack out to be a limited attack on a single Iranian Naval Base regardless of Iran's response!
> 
> Trust me Iran's response is NOT going to be proportionate or limited to Saudi Air Force and Naval bases even if they only hit an Air Base!!
> 
> And you wanna talk about mistakes of the Iran-Iraq war before the War started the Iraqi's had massed their troops on Iranian boarders! If Iranian leadership had drawn a line in the sand and said we will consider any further incursion as a full scale war & carried out a massive strike against Iraqi targets before the war started more likely than NOT Saddam would have realized that he miscalculated and would have never attempted the invasion in the 1st place!
> So you say we could have ended the war in 1982, my response to that would be we could have ended the war in 1980 before it even began if Iranian leaders were more decisive & would have ordered the Air Force to carry out a major attack instead of allowing Saddam to mass troops on the boarder with continued boarder skirmishes!



Both your posts are full of irrelevant examples, incorrect assumptions, and poor estimation of the hard and soft power of both sides. Not to mention diverting the scenario (from an Iran-Saudi war to an Iran-US war).

I cannot read in full - much less hold a discussion about - such posts.


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## N_Al40



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## skyshadow

Unsuccessful and successful missile tests in Iran
این ویدئو هم درد داره هم خوشحالی ولی در نهایت خوشحالی داره و پیامی هم داره برای کسایی که میگن صنعت موشکی ما کاملا کپی برداری از کره شمالی هست . اینطوری نیست دانشمندان ایرانی با جون و دل سعی و تلاش کردن تا به اینجا رسیدیم.

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> Both your posts are full of irrelevant examples, incorrect assumptions, and poor estimation of the hard and soft power of both sides. Not to mention diverting the scenario (from an Iran-Saudi war to an Iran-US war).
> 
> I cannot read in full - much less hold a discussion about - such posts.



Ok let me make it simple & easy for you so you can understand!

This is one of the main locations where the Saudi's keep the backbone of their Air Force
It is located 1,400 km from Iran with over 100 fortified Aircraft bunkers & various types of SAM systems...







This is what the bunkers look like up close












Iranian Cruise Missiles fired from Iranian territory WILL NEVER be able to destroy any fighters at this base because they'll have plenty of time to detect and scramble their Air Force
Even firing 500 MRBM will not ensure that you would be able to take out even 50 Saudi Fighters and most of the damages will be superficial mostly concreate, cement, asphalt,... that can be repaired in a matter of months but at the same time Iran can't replace 500 +1,400km MRBM in a matter of months which means 500 MRBM to take out 50 fighter jets even if you could grantee that 50 of their fighter will be taken out is NOT a logical use of your assets! 

So NO Iran can't afford to go tit for tat against Saudi Air Force Bases 

The Saudi can easily afford to take off from this base with 50 F-15E, land at a small base near the Persian Gulf to refuel, takeoff, refuel again in the Air and go after Iranian targets in the South of Iran BUT Iran can't afford to fire 500 MRBM at a Saudi Air Base it is really a no brainer it is surprising that you can't comprehend that!

Iran will have to go after Saudi oil and infrastructure & high value targets that aren't so easily replaceable & it's as simple as that!

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## raptor22

VEVAK said:


> Ok let me make it simple & easy for you so you can understand!
> 
> This is one of the main locations where the Saudi's keep the backbone of their Air Force
> It is located 1,400 km from Iran with over 100 fortified Aircraft bunkers & various types of SAM systems...
> View attachment 439783
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what the bunkers look like up close
> View attachment 439784
> 
> 
> View attachment 439785
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian Cruise Missiles fired from Iranian territory WILL NEVER be able to destroy any fighters at this base because they'll have plenty of time to detect and scramble their Air Force
> Even firing 500 MRBM will not ensure that you would be able to take out even 50 Saudi Fighters and most of the damages will be superficial mostly concreate, cement, asphalt,... that can be repaired in a matter of months but at the same time Iran can't replace 500 +1,400km MRBM in a matter of months which means 500 MRBM to take out 50 fighter jets even if you could grantee that 50 of their fighter will be taken out is NOT a logical use of your assets!
> 
> So NO Iran can't afford to go tit for tat against Saudi Air Force Bases
> 
> The Saudi can easily afford to take off from this base with 50 F-15E, land at a small base near the Persian Gulf to refuel, takeoff, refuel again in the Air and go after Iranian targets in the South of Iran BUT Iran can't afford to fire 500 MRBM at a Saudi Air Base it is really a no brainer it is surprising that you can't comprehend that!
> 
> Iran will have to go after Saudi oil and infrastructure & high value targets that aren't so easily replaceable & it's as simple as that!


 
Surly these airports have radars, runways, fuel farms and other places that could be targeted. I think if we could take out these facilities not necessary the bunkers we could easily paralyzed their air force or at least harmless for a while in order to immune our airspace and also Persian Gulf then we will have time for political pressure and other stuff.
But what threats Saudis could pose next to the air force?


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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> This is one of the main locations



Which airbase? Location, name etc. please.



VEVAK said:


> Iranian Cruise Missiles fired from Iranian territory WILL NEVER be able to destroy any fighters at this base because they'll have plenty of time to detect and scramble their Air Force



One of the great advantages of cruise missiles over ballistic missiles and aircraft is that they fly very low and therefore are difficult to detect.



VEVAK said:


> Even firing 500 MRBM will not ensure that you would be able to take out even 50 Saudi Fighters and most of the damages will be superficial mostly concreate, cement, asphalt,... that can be repaired in a matter of months but at the same time Iran can't replace 500 +1,400km MRBM in a matter of months which means 500 MRBM to take out 50 fighter jets even if you could grantee that 50 of their fighter will be taken out is NOT a logical use of your assets!



Precise BMs can punch through shelters. But I prefer grounding their air force first by taking out their runways (even if the damage is temporary, 24 hours), followed immediately by tactical aircraft dropping 2000 lb PGMs or even bunker busters on those hardened shelters.

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## ashool

raptor22 said:


> Surly these airports have radars, runways, fuel farms and other places that could be targeted. I think if we could take out these facilities not necessary the bunkers we could easily paralyzed their air force or at least harmless for a while in order to immune our airspace and also Persian Gulf then we will have time for political pressure and other stuff.
> But what threats Saudis could pose next to the air force?


شما چند سالته و تو چند تا جنگ حضور داشتی می شه لطفا اینها را برای من بی تجربه جنگ ندیده روشن کنی و یا تو کدام دانشکده نظامی تا چه مقطعی تحصیلات دارید 
ممنون میشم من روشن کنید
نظرات شما بسیار کار امد هستنننننننننننننن

ببخشید منظورم vivak بود



VEVAK said:


> Ok let me make it simple & easy for you so you can understand!
> 
> This is one of the main locations where the Saudi's keep the backbone of their Air Force
> It is located 1,400 km from Iran with over 100 fortified Aircraft bunkers & various types of SAM systems...
> View attachment 439783
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what the bunkers look like up close
> View attachment 439784
> 
> 
> View attachment 439785
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian Cruise Missiles fired from Iranian territory WILL NEVER be able to destroy any fighters at this base because they'll have plenty of time to detect and scramble their Air Force
> Even firing 500 MRBM will not ensure that you would be able to take out even 50 Saudi Fighters and most of the damages will be superficial mostly concreate, cement, asphalt,... that can be repaired in a matter of months but at the same time Iran can't replace 500 +1,400km MRBM in a matter of months which means 500 MRBM to take out 50 fighter jets even if you could grantee that 50 of their fighter will be taken out is NOT a logical use of your assets!
> 
> So NO Iran can't afford to go tit for tat against Saudi Air Force Bases
> 
> The Saudi can easily afford to take off from this base with 50 F-15E, land at a small base near the Persian Gulf to refuel, takeoff, refuel again in the Air and go after Iranian targets in the South of Iran BUT Iran can't afford to fire 500 MRBM at a Saudi Air Base it is really a no brainer it is surprising that you can't comprehend that!
> 
> Iran will have to go after Saudi oil and infrastructure & high value targets that aren't so easily replaceable & it's as simple as that!



شما چند سالته و تو چند تا جنگ حضور داشتی می شه لطفا اینها را برای من بی تجربه جنگ ندیده روشن کنی و یا تو کدام دانشکده نظامی تا چه مقطعی تحصیلات دارید 
ممنون میشم من روشن کنید
نظرات شما بسیار کار امد هستنننننننننننننن

excuse me i write parsi but i want to say it in my language


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## VEVAK

raptor22 said:


> Surly these airports have radars, runways, fuel farms and other places that could be targeted. I think if we could take out these facilities not necessary the bunkers we could easily paralyzed their air force or at least harmless for a while in order to immune our airspace and also Persian Gulf then we will have time for political pressure and other stuff.
> But what threats Saudis could pose next to the air force?



Amir was saying that if the Saudi's take out an Iranian Air Force base & an Iranian warship we shouldn't escalate & should only respond in kind by taking out a Saudi warship & a Saudi Air Force base and then push for peace talks & I was explaining to him how impractical that truly is!

If the Saudi's take out an Iranian Air Force base using 20 F-15's & an Iranian warship in the gulf of Aden our response will need to be more in the lines of
Taking out a major Saudi refinery(within 800km, 10Missiles), an Oil facility(within 800km 10 SRBM), a Saudi Power plant(within 800km 10SRBM), Dropping a few missile on Saudi Air Force base(within 800km 20 SRBM), Dropping a 5 MRBM with cluster warheads on a Saudi Port & Naval base off the Red Sea, Taking out a Saudi ship with a sub & maybe drop a missile on the mansion of the Saudi crown prince... 

You can call that an escalation if you want but Iran didn't start it and what Iran CAN NOT afford to do is waist it's missiles on a tit for tat game against the Saudi Air Force where they take out military assets & you respond by destroying some asphalt and concrete at an Air Force base because clearly your going to be the looser of such a game & just like the border skirmishes with Iraq that led to an 8 year long war without a harsh & painful response by Iran to any Saudi Attack the Saudi's will feel emboldened and won't feel like they miscalculated & they will continue behaving foolishly!


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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> Amir was saying that if the Saudi's take out an Iranian Air Force base & an Iranian warship we shouldn't escalate & should only respond in kind by taking out a Saudi warship & a Saudi Air Force base and then push for peace talks & I was explaining to him how impractical that truly is!
> 
> If the Saudi's take out an Iranian Air Force base using 20 F-15's & an Iranian warship in the gulf of Aden our response will need to be more in the lines of
> Taking out a major Saudi refinery(within 800km, 10Missiles), an Oil facility(within 800km 10 SRBM), a Saudi Power plant(within 800km 10SRBM), Dropping a few missile on Saudi Air Force base(within 800km 20 SRBM), Dropping a 5 MRBM with cluster warheads on a Saudi Port & Naval base off the Red Sea, Taking out a Saudi ship with a sub & maybe drop a missile on the mansion of the Saudi crown prince...
> 
> You can call that an escalation if you want but Iran didn't start it and what Iran CAN NOT afford to do is waist it's missiles on a tit for tat game against the Saudi Air Force where they take out military assets & you respond by destroying some asphalt and concrete at an Air Force base because clearly your going to be the looser of such a game & just like the border skirmishes with Iraq that led to an 8 year long war without a harsh & painful response by Iran to any Saudi Attack the Saudi's will feel emboldened and won't feel like they miscalculated & they will continue behaving foolishly!



Even if you want to escalate (because in some situations, that may be advantageous), you don't escalate to civilian/industrial targets if your enemy has attacked only military targets. Your escalation has to have a context and a reason. It has to achieve both military and political objectives. You don't just attack random targets, like this power plant, that oil facility, those ports etc.

Ultimatums are very fashionable with Saudi nowadays. If Saudi sinks an Iranian frigate and/or other warships, blockades the strait and issues an ultimatum for Iran to do this or that, an escalation would not be unwise, but the nature of the escalation is important. Both to force them into a ceasefire and to make your actions palatable on the international stage. The latter is very important and highly dependent on how you respond. In this scenario, no, you don't hit random military/civilian/industrial targets, you cripple the Saudi navy with a strike more severe than theirs. This is not only militarily decisive, it has a clear defensive (and politically palatable) intention of preventing an adversary from achieving its objectives (blockading Iranian shipping).

If, however, you strike at an oil facility the whole world will get pissed off that you just tripled their oil prices, and will say you made an unfair response, killed civilians, bla bla etc.

And lastly, don't compare the Sacred Defence with a hypothetical future war that would have little to no similarities to it. We don't even share a land border ffs.


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## VEVAK

ashool said:


> شما چند سالته و تو چند تا جنگ حضور داشتی می شه لطفا اینها را برای من بی تجربه جنگ ندیده روشن کنی و یا تو کدام دانشکده نظامی تا چه مقطعی تحصیلات دارید
> ممنون میشم من روشن کنید
> نظرات شما بسیار کار امد هستنننننننننننننن
> 
> ببخشید منظورم vivak بود
> 
> 
> 
> شما چند سالته و تو چند تا جنگ حضور داشتی می شه لطفا اینها را برای من بی تجربه جنگ ندیده روشن کنی و یا تو کدام دانشکده نظامی تا چه مقطعی تحصیلات دارید
> ممنون میشم من روشن کنید
> نظرات شما بسیار کار امد هستنننننننننننننن
> 
> excuse me i write parsi but i want to say it in my language



Ay baba do you even have a clue of what it is we are talking about????? 

Are you telling me that If the Saudi's feel emboldened, miscalculate & escalate to a point where they feel comfortable doing something foolish like attacking an Iranian warship at sea and using their air force to attack an Iranian base, Iran should ONLY restrict it's self to responding in kind by hitting a Saudi warship & a Saudi Air Force base???? Really??? I don't need to be educated in military tactics to understand how foolish that is and aside from Sarbazi almost 2 decades ago I have no formal education in military tactics just what I read as a hobby! 

I'm not saying Iran would loose to Saudi Arabia far from it! My point was that Iran CAN NOT afford to go tit for tat against the Saudi Air Force using ballistic missiles! Where they use their Air Force to take out Iranian military assets & we waist our missiles by ONLY targeting the Saudi Air Force with mostly superficial damages because we fear or don't want an escalation! In fact lack of a proper response is what will result in a further escalation because just like Saddam the Saudi's will miscalculate!

If the Saudi's take out an Iranian warship in the gulf of Aden and attack an Iranian Air force base using ~14 F-15E, ~6 F-15C + support aircraft that could easily take out over 50 Iranian military assets. In response, Iran will have to give a clear and decisive answer & that answer CAN NOT be restrictive and foolishly wasted on going after Saudi Air Force bases ONLY our response has to be against assets that help fund & power their Air Force!

And Iran will have to respond harshly for them to get the message so they fully comprehend that they miscalculated or else you would be playing into the hands of the Saudi's!

This is common sense you don't need to be educated in military tactics to comprehend this!



AmirPatriot said:


> Even if you want to escalate (because in some situations, that may be advantageous), you don't escalate to civilian/industrial targets if your enemy has attacked only military targets. Your escalation has to have a context and a reason. It has to achieve both military and political objectives. You don't just attack random targets, like this power plant, that oil facility, those ports etc.
> 
> Ultimatums are very fashionable with Saudi nowadays. If Saudi sinks an Iranian frigate and/or other warships, blockades the strait and issues an ultimatum for Iran to do this or that, an escalation would not be unwise, but the nature of the escalation is important. Both to force them into a ceasefire and to make your actions palatable on the international stage. The latter is very important and highly dependent on how you respond. In this scenario, no, you don't hit random military/civilian/industrial targets, you cripple the Saudi navy with a strike more severe than theirs. This is not only militarily decisive, it has a clear defensive (and politically palatable) intention of preventing an adversary from achieving its objectives (blockading Iranian shipping).
> 
> If, however, you strike at an oil facility the whole world will get pissed off that you just tripled their oil prices, and will say you made an unfair response, killed civilians, bla bla etc.
> 
> And lastly, don't compare the Sacred Defence with a hypothetical future war that would have little to no similarities to it. We don't even share a land border ffs.



Propaganda is propaganda and people that are pro Iran will remain pro Iran regardless of Iran's response and vice versa 

And what part of Saudi behavior has been rational so far that you think you can Iran can ration with these people?

If they attack military targets then in response Iran has to restrict it's self to Saudi Military targets ONLY? LOL! that's nothing but FICTION buddy! It doesn't apply to real life!

And I can promise you that if Iran restrict it's self to ONLY military targets we will lose!

Please explain what targets Iran should take out if the Saudi's destroy
All Iranian Subs, Warships, Fighter & Helo's at Bandar Abbas, Busher & Chabahar???? 

You think we should target what exactly????? Please explain so I can show you how absurd your way of thinking truly is!!!


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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> Propaganda is propaganda and people that are pro Iran will remain pro Iran regardless of Iran's response and vice versa



What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about people that support Iran? The whole reason why I'm saying we shouldn't escalate so easily is because that could drag the US into the war! You think we can just fucking nuke Riyadh and get away with it?



VEVAK said:


> And what part of Saudi behavior has been rational



Aggressiveness =/= irrationality. Salman is aggressive and short sighted, but he isn't suicidal, nor stupid.



VEVAK said:


> If they attack military targets then in response Iran has to restrict it's self to Saudi Military targets ONLY? LOL! that's nothing but FICTION buddy! It doesn't apply to real life!
> 
> And I can promise you that if Iran restrict it's self to ONLY military targets we will lose!



OK! Maybe instead of saying LOL!! you should actually bring up some points that counter my arguments!!! Try not to refer to wars from 70 years ago!!!! Try not to use examples that have no consideration of geography or geopolitics at all!!!!!



VEVAK said:


> Please explain what targets Iran should take out if the Saudi's destroy
> All Iranian Subs, Warships, Fighter & Helo's at Bandar Abbas, Busher & Chabahar????



At the minimum, the exact same to their bases near the Persian Gulf. To decide whether escalation is needed or not, you would need to tell me what their objective is.

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## raptor22

VEVAK said:


> Amir was saying that if the Saudi's take out an Iranian Air Force base & an Iranian warship we shouldn't escalate & should only respond in kind by taking out a Saudi warship & a Saudi Air Force base and then push for peace talks & I was explaining to him how impractical that truly is!
> 
> If the Saudi's take out an Iranian Air Force base using 20 F-15's & an Iranian warship in the gulf of Aden our response will need to be more in the lines of
> Taking out a major Saudi refinery(within 800km, 10Missiles), an Oil facility(within 800km 10 SRBM), a Saudi Power plant(within 800km 10SRBM), Dropping a few missile on Saudi Air Force base(within 800km 20 SRBM), Dropping a 5 MRBM with cluster warheads on a Saudi Port & Naval base off the Red Sea, Taking out a Saudi ship with a sub & maybe drop a missile on the mansion of the Saudi crown prince...
> 
> You can call that an escalation if you want but Iran didn't start it and what Iran CAN NOT afford to do is waist it's missiles on a tit for tat game against the Saudi Air Force where they take out military assets & you respond by destroying some asphalt and concrete at an Air Force base because clearly your going to be the looser of such a game & just like the border skirmishes with Iraq that led to an 8 year long war without a harsh & painful response by Iran to any Saudi Attack the Saudi's will feel emboldened and won't feel like they miscalculated & they will continue behaving foolishly!



I think as far as your foe limits its attacks just to military targets we should take the same step and if you think our missiles can not have desired destruction of their fighter jet and their bunkers then we should find other means to achieve that goal to paralyzed their air force. But I agree with you on the second part of your comment, our response must be devastating in level that makes them to see war as a costly painful path which needed to be abounded not continued, preventing war from getting prolonged.
Not only escalation ain't a bad idea but it would be a signal to others that Iran is ready to defend itself but still in the same manner but in bigger scale.


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## VEVAK

raptor22 said:


> I think as far as your foe limits its attacks just to military targets we should take the same step and if you think our missiles can not have desired destruction of their fighter jet and their bunkers then we should find other means to achieve that goal to paralyzed their air force. But I agree with you on the second part of your comment, our response must be devastating in level that makes them to see war as a costly painful path which needed to be abounded not continued, preventing war from getting prolonged.
> Not only escalation ain't a bad idea but it would be a signal to others that Iran is ready to defend itself but still in the same manner but in bigger scale.



The only way Iran's Ballistic Missiles could have any kind of desirable impact against Saudi Air Force is if we start the war & take preemptive action with good intel and that's something Iranian leaders would never do!! 
But in such a scenario you are prepared for Saudi retaliation so
Your Navy is prepped with most of your subs & ships deployed so they don't become easy targets with radars on and personal ready to take action 
Your Air Force is prepped with assets moved and ready to scramble 
Your Air Defense is prepped your SAM's & radars are on and ready to take action long before an enemy fighter jet gets even close to your Air Space
etc, etc, etc,

But if the Saudi's start the war they could easily take out a large portion of Iranian military assets in the south & it would be fairly standard for them to prep for Iran's retaliation and if that happens then NO Iranian missiles will not have much use against the Saudi Air Force! Naturally, we will fire missiles at their Air Force to disrupt operation but we can not individually target assets! Unless Iran can deploy hundreds of spy sats at various orbits that can feed you live intel on what bunker to hit and when then even with a CEP of 50 meters at over 1500km it is just not likely! At least not with Ballistic Missiles or Cruise missiles fired from Iran!

Iran would have to go after what funds, fuels, powers & commands the Saudi Air Force rather than the actual fighter jets!

That's the ONLY way we would be able to bring the Saudi's back down to reality & to make them understand that they miscalculated and ensure that they don't do it again!

If the Saudi's wipeout Iran's Navy and we respond by destroying some runways & buildings at a few Saudi Air Force bases and the Saudi's go and say we made a mistake, we give up and lets start peace talks that means they are playing us for fools and that will only ensure that they do it again once Iran rebuilds it's Navy! Unless they agree to hand over their Navy to us we would have to be fools to accept such nonsense and we would HAVE to go after Saudi money which means we have to go after Saudi Oil to make them hurt so they never make such an idiotic move again!

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about people that support Iran? The whole reason why I'm saying we shouldn't escalate so easily is because that could drag the US into the war! You think we can just fucking nuke Riyadh and get away with it?
> 
> 
> 
> At the minimum, the exact same to their bases near the Persian Gulf. To decide whether escalation is needed or not, you would need to tell me what their objective is.



Let's start again.
I apologize for the LOL's, your correct it was inappropriate & I'm sorry!

Let me give you a clear example, let say Iranians wake up on January 1st, 2018 to see all the following destroyed 
10 Aircraft bunkers + 5 radars & Sams + 2 costal defense batteries + 1 FAC +1 Corvette & 1 Support vessel destroyed at Chabahar 
20 Aircraft bunkers + 5 radars & SAM's + 6 heavy Helo's + 4 Hovercrafts + 3 Kilo Subs + 14 Gadir Submarine and Gadir sub production facility + 5 Iranian frigates (including shiraz & Sahand) + 5 Iranian FAC & Patrol boats + 7 Iranian support vessels destroyed at Bandar Abbas
20 Aircraft Bunkers, 5 Helo's, 5 radars & SAM, 10 FAC & Patrol vessels, 2 Support vessels at Busher 
All destroyed over night
Using intel from the U.S. Saudi's can make sure the bunkers targeted and destroyed have fighters or UAV's in them!
Under the pretense of a military exercise Saudi's can move the few corvettes, missile boats, support vessels & minesweepers they have in the Persian Gulf to the red sea a week prior to the attack & they can move most of their fighters to bases over 1000km from Iran prior to the attack & only leave 8 F-15E on stand by ready to scramble at 5 bases within 1000km!
And attacking the targets I pointed out can easily be accomplished with less than 50 F-15E's + 30 F-15C's + Support Aircraft 
*
I wanna know what Saudi assets your going to hit, located where & using what weapon in response?
*

Remember Saudi have moved most of their Naval assets to the red sea and are keeping only 40 F-15C's across 5 bases within 1000km of Iran for Air Defense and they are all either in the Air or ready to scramble so they can take off as soon as a missile launch is detected


Saudi's have demolished Yemen's entire infrastructure, created a Naval blocked that's creating Famine in Yemen and that alone is all the excuse or reason Iran needs to go after Saudi infrastructure!
You need to judge people & countries by their pattern of behavior. That's why they put pedophiles on a list because no one thinks a pedophile would suddenly behave differently if he is moved to a state with the best police force on the planet. They may change their tactics to try to get away with it but at the end of the day they will behave like pedophiles & Saudi leadership is no different.

As for the U.S. the Saudi's CAN NOT use American weapons to start a war without direct approval from the U.S. and every one knows that! So if the Saudi's attack Iran it would be because the U.S. wanted it and most likely assisted with intel.

Saudi Air Force is funded by Saudi Oil money and Oil industry which makes them legitimate military targets!
Saudi's have the highest military spending per GDP and capita than any other country in the world & that money is not coming from taxes! So
Saudi Oil infrastructure, refineries, depots, oil rigs, oil pipelines,..... are legit military targets 
Power plants that power bases & Saudi Oil facilities are legit military targets
Ports that export Saudi Oil that fund Saudi Air Force & import weapons to them are legit military targets
Saudi command & leadership in a monarchy are legit military targets

I'm not saying Iran needs to target schools, shopping malls & hospitals! But Iran's number one target in a war with Saudi Arabia would be Saudi Oil and that is a legit military target!


*And even if the Saudi's agree to a cease fire after Iran destroys a few runways & buildings do you honestly think that is an appropriate enough response to convince the Saudi's that they should never do that again? Or else every time Iran builds up it's military capability in the Persian Gulf they will bomb it wait for Iran do destroy some concrete & say o we give up and are very sorry! *
​

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## ashool

VEVAK said:


> Ay baba do you even have a clue of what it is we are talking about?????
> 
> Are you telling me that If the Saudi's feel emboldened, miscalculate & escalate to a point where they feel comfortable doing something foolish like attacking an Iranian warship at sea and using their air force to attack an Iranian base, Iran should ONLY restrict it's self to responding in kind by hitting a Saudi warship & a Saudi Air Force base???? Really??? I don't need to be educated in military tactics to understand how foolish that is and aside from Sarbazi almost 2 decades ago I have no formal education in military tactics just what I read as a hobby!
> 
> I'm not saying Iran would loose to Saudi Arabia far from it! My point was that Iran CAN NOT afford to go tit for tat against the Saudi Air Force using ballistic missiles! Where they use their Air Force to take out Iranian military assets & we waist our missiles by ONLY targeting the Saudi Air Force with mostly superficial damages because we fear or don't want an escalation! In fact lack of a proper response is what will result in a further escalation because just like Saddam the Saudi's will miscalculate!
> 
> If the Saudi's take out an Iranian warship in the gulf of Aden and attack an Iranian Air force base using ~14 F-15E, ~6 F-15C + support aircraft that could easily take out over 50 Iranian military assets. In response, Iran will have to give a clear and decisive answer & that answer CAN NOT be restrictive and foolishly wasted on going after Saudi Air Force bases ONLY our response has to be against assets that help fund & power their Air Force!
> 
> And Iran will have to respond harshly for them to get the message so they fully comprehend that they miscalculated or else you would be playing into the hands of the Saudi's!
> 
> This is common sense you don't need to be educated in military tactics to comprehend this!
> 
> 
> 
> Propaganda is propaganda and people that are pro Iran will remain pro Iran regardless of Iran's response and vice versa
> 
> And what part of Saudi behavior has been rational so far that you think you can Iran can ration with these people?
> 
> If they attack military targets then in response Iran has to restrict it's self to Saudi Military targets ONLY? LOL! that's nothing but FICTION buddy! It doesn't apply to real life!
> 
> And I can promise you that if Iran restrict it's self to ONLY military targets we will lose!
> 
> Please explain what targets Iran should take out if the Saudi's destroy
> All Iranian Subs, Warships, Fighter & Helo's at Bandar Abbas, Busher & Chabahar????
> 
> You think we should target what exactly????? Please explain so I can show you how absurd your way of thinking truly is!!!


i say that about that what you said our missile can do nothing to air force bunker not any thing els about those things you mentioned up about attacking
i want to say in war many factor we can use not only our missile can not destroy a bunker maybe information our anti bunker missile 
and if you keep drop water on rock the rock will crack on it 
2 iran dont need hit only thair fighter jet did you thing only destroying fighter jet only can one air force useless you can only by hitting their bond or logistic of them make them useless even for one week its in off for grand or marine operation
3. why you dont think about anti bunker missile the khoramshahr missile can carry 1800 kg warhead to 2000 km or maybe 2400kg to 1200km can we use it as anti bunker weapon by carry kinetic warhead
its only my option you must know we have more of them in our commander and weapons we dont know about


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## mangekyo

VEVAK said:


> Let me give you a clear example, let say Iranians wake up on January 1st, 2018 to see all the following destroyed
> 10 Aircraft bunkers + 5 radars & Sams + 2 costal defense batteries + 1 FAC +1 Corvette & 1 Support vessel destroyed at Chabahar
> 20 Aircraft bunkers + 5 radars & SAM's + 6 heavy Helo's + 4 Hovercrafts + 3 Kilo Subs + 14 Gadir Submarine and Gadir sub production facility + 5 Iranian frigates (including shiraz & Sahand) + 5 Iranian FAC & Patrol boats + 7 Iranian support vessels destroyed at Bandar Abbas
> 20 Aircraft Bunkers, 5 Helo's, 5 radars & SAM, 10 FAC & Patrol vessels, 2 Support vessels at Busher
> All destroyed over night



This is exactly why Iran is focusing on Missile tech and stockpiling BMs. Let them destroy what you mentioned. Our missiles will rain on every city and level them all with the ground. Even if they intercept more than half of our missiles it wont save them. Only thing that will remain in SA will be Mekka Medina and dust


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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> Let me give you a clear example, let say Iranians wake up on January 1st, 2018 to see all the following destroyed
> 10 Aircraft bunkers + 5 radars & Sams + 2 costal defense batteries + 1 FAC +1 Corvette & 1 Support vessel destroyed at Chabahar
> 20 Aircraft bunkers + 5 radars & SAM's + 6 heavy Helo's + 4 Hovercrafts + 3 Kilo Subs + 14 Gadir Submarine and Gadir sub production facility + 5 Iranian frigates (including shiraz & Sahand) + 5 Iranian FAC & Patrol boats + 7 Iranian support vessels destroyed at Bandar Abbas
> 20 Aircraft Bunkers, 5 Helo's, 5 radars & SAM, 10 FAC & Patrol vessels, 2 Support vessels at Busher
> All destroyed over night
> Using intel from the U.S. Saudi's can make sure the bunkers targeted and destroyed have fighters or UAV's in them!
> Under the pretense of a military exercise Saudi's can move the few corvettes, missile boats, support vessels & minesweepers they have in the Persian Gulf to the red sea a week prior to the attack & they can move most of their fighters to bases over 1000km from Iran prior to the attack & only leave 8 F-15E on stand by ready to scramble at 5 bases within 1000km!
> And attacking the targets I pointed out can easily be accomplished with less than 50 F-15E's + 30 F-15C's + Support Aircraft



That's quite the attack (which I doubt could be accomplished with just 80 aircraft considering Iran's air defence, but that probably isn't relevant to the discussion). I don't think this would happen at all, but it is useful to discuss extreme scenarios since they can expose doctrinal strengths and weaknesses.



VEVAK said:


> I wanna know what Saudi assets your going to hit, located where & using what weapon in response?



While the casus belli is unknown which is a hindrance, I can guess it would probably be something along the lines of "deter/destroy/preempt Iranian ability/intention to aggress against Saudi Arabia", probably after a great deal of tension. Few other reasons are broad enough to be justify such an action, even in the minds of die hard Saudi fans. Maybe they think they could humiliate Iran and Iran would not be able to respond effectively.

This would be a state of complete, very high intensity war, with full mobilisation of the IRGC-ASF and IRIAF, along with whatever is left of the IRIN and IRGC-N. Full scale mobilisation of special operations/rapid reaction forces. Sizeable deployment of IRIA forces to coastal areas.

Having its navy destroyed and its air force damaged, Iran would have little choice but to respond with a massive missile attack on almost every Saudi air defence site, airbase, missile base, and port (housing warships) in the Red Sea. We have the range to do so. Funnily enough, those 8 F-15Es are not really much. Iran could probably even conduct a cautious (ie with lots of contingencies) but large airstrike on targets within range. This attack on military targets would be more severe than the Saudi strike, in order to shock the Saudis and weaken their resolve to continue the war.

Yes, I don't want to escalate. Yet.

Once the strike is complete, issue an ultimatum lasting just a few hours. Maybe 3-6 (they need some time to "consult" with the US and others). Saudi would have to pay Iran massive reparations - let's say $50 billion, in a short time span (they have FOREX reserves, so a week?). Lets throw some other minor concessions in there too, like public apology, prosecution at the UN, temporary ban on Saudi naval vessels in/over the Persian Gulf (I'm thinking a year) etc. If Saudi refuses, Iran would conduct strikes on industrial and high value targets until Saudi accepts the terms. These would be the oil facilities, presidential royal palaces, ports, pipelines, power plants (preferably not those near extremely critical infrastructure like desalination plants) etc. that you mentioned.

This approach not only gives us many different advantages. There is a possibility that we could end the war quickly, getting a handsome profit that could rebuild the navy and other affected parts, and a boost in national pride and influence. If the Saudis refuse and we attack industrial HVTs, we still look good on the international stage, because we warned them, restrained ourselves initially, and gave them a chance for peace. It is vitally important that you always seem like the peaceful one, the one who is defending yourself, the one who wants justice and *not revenge*.

In regards to preventing the Saudis from doing it again, the effective destruction of much of their military would teach them the strategic depth of Iranian conventional military power. The reparations would help make a formidable Iranian military that could deter the Saudis more effectively.

But I will say again, this sort of attack would not happen. Any direct conflict between Iran and Saudi would be a short, limited affair, probably with little losses on each side. 2 or 3 major warships, a handful of aircraft. Think Falklands War. Such a war would be the result of high tensions, miscalculations, or escalated skirmishes. Iran would not need to demand reparations (which would require the threat of escalation) since the losses would be relatively few, and as such Iran could probably try to get whatever compensation it wants through international courts. The massive increase in oil prices would help.

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## VEVAK

ashool said:


> i say that about that what you said our missile can do nothing to air force bunker not any thing els about those things you mentioned up about attacking
> i want to say in war many factor we can use not only our missile can not destroy a bunker maybe information our anti bunker missile
> and if you keep drop water on rock the rock will crack on it
> 2 iran dont need hit only thair fighter jet did you thing only destroying fighter jet only can one air force useless you can only by hitting their bond or logistic of them make them useless even for one week its in off for grand or marine operation
> 3. why you dont think about anti bunker missile the khoramshahr missile can carry 1800 kg warhead to 2000 km or maybe 2400kg to 1200km can we use it as anti bunker weapon by carry kinetic warhead
> its only my option you must know we have more of them in our commander and weapons we dont know about




And how many Khorramshar, Emad, Ghadr, Shahab-3 & Sejil missiles do you think Iran has to go after individual bunkers? 
Yes combined we probably have over 1000 of them which means we cannot risk firing 100's of MRBM at a single Saudi Air Force base with over 100 bunkers and without live actionable intel you could be emptying out your MRBM on empty bunkers!!!!!!!! And it's not a question of payload! It's a question of accuracy at ranges beyond 1200km 

Even if we demolish every runway at every Saudi Air Force base that is not an adequate response to them whipping out most of Iran's Navy, 60 Aircrafts(Fighters, Helo's & UAV's) , Vital radars & SAM

Runways and building can be rebuilt within a year and it would cost a fraction of what it would cost to rebuild your navy and it would take Iran decades to rebuild it's Navy! Not to mention the Aircraft, Helos, SAM, Radars & Ballistic Missiles that was lost!

If the idiots running Saudi Arabia thought for one second that they could get away with whipping out Iran's Navy and all they'd lose was all the runways at every Air Force Base in Saudi Arabia and maybe 50 aircraft's damaged or destroyed they would gladly give it! to top it off Iran also wasted it's MRBM on nothing! It's a no brainer!!!
American can repair the vital runway's so they are usable within day's and fully repair their bases within a year!

Saudi oil is what funds Saudi Military which means Saudi Oil is a legit military target and Iran will have to go after targets that can't so easily be rebuilt and a large Oil facility, factory, port or power plant you can easily target with current Iranian MRBM but a small hardened and well protected Aircraft bunker is a different story!!!!!!!!!!! And it has nothing to do with payload 

And this has nothing to do with Iran choosing BM over fighter jet! It's a matter of geography!!! The Saudi's can transfer their Navy to the Red Sea but we don't have that luxury!!!!
And if all we had to respond with was 200 Su-30's we would have been in a far worse situation and it still wouldn't have made much difference in prevention of a surprise attack using modern weapons against Iranian costal targets off the Persian Gulf! 
Thank God we have Ballistic Missiles BUT we still can't restrict ourselves to Saudi Air Force Bases ONLY! Iran has too and will go after Saudi Oil and infrastructure that help fund, power & replenish the Saudi Air Force


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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> That's quite the attack (which I doubt could be accomplished with just 80 aircraft considering Iran's air defence, but that probably isn't relevant to the discussion). I don't think this would happen at all, but it is useful to discuss extreme scenarios since they can expose doctrinal strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> 
> 
> While the casus belli is unknown which is a hindrance, I can guess it would probably be something along the lines of "deter/destroy/preempt Iranian ability/intention to aggress against Saudi Arabia", probably after a great deal of tension. Few other reasons are broad enough to be justify such an action, even in the minds of die hard Saudi fans. Maybe they think they could humiliate Iran and Iran would not be able to respond effectively.
> 
> This would be a state of complete, very high intensity war, with full mobilisation of the IRGC-ASF and IRIAF, along with whatever is left of the IRIN and IRGC-N. Full scale mobilisation of special operations/rapid reaction forces. Sizeable deployment of IRIA forces to coastal areas.
> 
> Having its navy destroyed and its air force damaged, Iran would have little choice but to respond with a massive missile attack on almost every Saudi air defence site, airbase, missile base, and port (housing warships) in the Red Sea. We have the range to do so. Funnily enough, those 8 F-15Es are not really much. Iran could probably even conduct a cautious (ie with lots of contingencies) but large airstrike on targets within range. This attack on military targets would be more severe than the Saudi strike, in order to shock the Saudis and weaken their resolve to continue the war.
> 
> Yes, I don't want to escalate. Yet.
> 
> Once the strike is complete, issue an ultimatum lasting just a few hours. Maybe 3-6 (they need some time to "consult" with the US and others). Saudi would have to pay Iran massive reparations - let's say $50 billion, in a short time span (they have FOREX reserves, so a week?). Lets throw some other minor concessions in there too, like public apology, prosecution at the UN, temporary ban on Saudi naval vessels in/over the Persian Gulf (I'm thinking a year) etc. If Saudi refuses, Iran would conduct strikes on industrial and high value targets until Saudi accepts the terms. These would be the oil facilities, presidential royal palaces, ports, pipelines, power plants (preferably not those near extremely critical infrastructure like desalination plants) etc. that you mentioned.
> 
> This approach not only gives us many different advantages. There is a possibility that we could end the war quickly, getting a handsome profit that could rebuild the navy and other affected parts, and a boost in national pride and influence. If the Saudis refuse and we attack industrial HVTs, we still look good on the international stage, because we warned them, restrained ourselves initially, and gave them a chance for peace. It is vitally important that you always seem like the peaceful one, the one who is defending yourself, the one who wants justice and *not revenge*.
> 
> In regards to preventing the Saudis from doing it again, the effective destruction of much of their military would teach them the strategic depth of Iranian conventional military power. The reparations would help make a formidable Iranian military that could deter the Saudis more effectively.
> 
> But I will say again, this sort of attack would not happen. Any direct conflict between Iran and Saudi would be a short, limited affair, probably with little losses on each side. 2 or 3 major warships, a handful of aircraft. Think Falklands War. Such a war would be the result of high tensions, miscalculations, or escalated skirmishes. Iran would not need to demand reparations (which would require the threat of escalation) since the losses would be relatively few, and as such Iran could probably try to get whatever compensation it wants through international courts. The massive increase in oil prices would help.



*
I wanna know what assets you would take out, located where using what weapon system??? Just saying we will lob missiles at all their military bases is not a strategy. 
*
It would take decades for Iran to rebuild it's Navy! You think the Saudi's are going to take out Iran's Navy & then sit with the U.S. and agree to give Iran a bunch of new ships + $50 Billion USD so the war would end? And under Trump! Really? 

Logically, Saudi's would relocate most of their fleet to bases beyond 1000km to stay out of reach of Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, Qiam & Zolfaghar missiles so firing $500k - $1M missiles to destroy some concrete and asphalt at empty bases within 300-800km is absurd! 
And it would take us a decade to rebuild our Ballistic Missile stockpile so wasting our missiles on some empty bases is again absurd! 

And Air Force targets beyond 1000km your looking at a few lucky shots but by the most part you'll be destroying runways and a few buildings with limited damage to some of their fighters at best.

As for the Saudi Navy you understand Saudi Arabia's main Naval base is in Jaddeh so you'll be firing missiles over Macca to reach them! Who do you think the Muslim world would blame if the Saudi's shoot down an Iranian missile heading towards Jaddeh which has to pass over Macca with fragments falling all over Kaaba?
Talk about pissing off 2 billion people! Your better off going after Saudi Oil!

And hitting Naval bases without actually taking out the ships is worthless! Your not hitting anything that can't be replaced in a fairly short amount of time with limited financial damages! 

My education is in Graphic Design & I'm not educated in military tactics but common sense is still common sense!
Your saying even if the Saudi's wipeout Iran's Navy you still wouldn't go after what funds the Saudi Air Force! I'm sorry but that sound a bit naive to me! 

Today your willing to give up the destruction of Iran's Navy, costal radar, SAM's, Helos, fighter jet, UAV's & the destruction of Iranian bases for $50 Billion USD what's next? Iranian Islands?
How much would you want if they wanna take Persian Gulf, Abu Musa, Tumb koochee o bozorgh Islands in the Persian Gulf the year after? ​
Iran's Navy is worth more than $50 Billion USD because NO ONE is going to sell us Kilo Subs & it would take Iran decades to rebuild it's Navy & Saudi's would have no fear of destroying it again!!! 

This has NOTHIGN to do with revenge! This about teaching them a lesson! It's like the JCPOA now that Iran agreed to a deal they want more! And if Iran falls short of answering properly to any attack on it's assets then they will want more and they'll do it again! 
Revenge would be turning their cities into dust! A good spanking would be taking away their cash & that can only be accomplished by taking out Saudi OIL infrastructure...... And Iran just needs to take out half of their Oil infrastructure so they still have fear of loosing the other half if behave badly! 


F-15C equipped for Air Defense have a high combat radius and it's 40 F-15 C that's 8 F-15C deployed at 5 bases in the Air or on standby to maintain Air Superiority over northern Saudi boarder & the rest of the Saudi Air Force deployed over 1000km away can come in patrol vital areas and go back and park and land as bases beyond 1000km! (This is to stay out of rang of Iran's Qiam, Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar missiles)

As for the F-15E this is how may SDB you can put on an F-15E if they were to replace the two in the middle with a fuel pod and hit each target I mentioned with 2 SDB bombs that's still more than enough F-15E's to take out all the targets I mentioned and then some and they could do it from over 50km away outside Iranian Air Space!

10 F-15E at Chabahar = 80 Targets, 20 F-15E at Bandar Abbas = 160 Targets & 20 F-15E at Busher ..... With 6 F-15C as escort & jamming for every 10 F-15E's and that's more than enough to take out far more targets that I mentioned.... 



 



If


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## ashool

VEVAK said:


> And how many Khorramshar, Emad, Ghadr, Shahab-3 & Sejil missiles do you think Iran has to go after individual bunkers?
> Yes combined we probably have over 1000 of them which means we cannot risk firing 100's of MRBM at a single Saudi Air Force base with over 100 bunkers and without live actionable intel you could be emptying out your MRBM on empty bunkers!!!!!!!! And it's not a question of payload! It's a question of accuracy at ranges beyond 1200km
> 
> Even if we demolish every runway at every Saudi Air Force base that is not an adequate response to them whipping out most of Iran's Navy, 60 Aircrafts(Fighters, Helo's & UAV's) , Vital radars & SAM
> 
> Runways and building can be rebuilt within a year and it would cost a fraction of what it would cost to rebuild your navy and it would take Iran decades to rebuild it's Navy! Not to mention the Aircraft, Helos, SAM, Radars & Ballistic Missiles that was lost!
> 
> If the idiots running Saudi Arabia thought for one second that they could get away with whipping out Iran's Navy and all they'd lose was all the runways at every Air Force Base in Saudi Arabia and maybe 50 aircraft's damaged or destroyed they would gladly give it! to top it off Iran also wasted it's MRBM on nothing! It's a no brainer!!!
> American can repair the vital runway's so they are usable within day's and fully repair their bases within a year!
> 
> Saudi oil is what funds Saudi Military which means Saudi Oil is a legit military target and Iran will have to go after targets that can't so easily be rebuilt and a large Oil facility, factory, port or power plant you can easily target with current Iranian MRBM but a small hardened and well protected Aircraft bunker is a different story!!!!!!!!!!! And it has nothing to do with payload
> 
> And this has nothing to do with Iran choosing BM over fighter jet! It's a matter of geography!!! The Saudi's can transfer their Navy to the Red Sea but we don't have that luxury!!!!
> And if all we had to respond with was 200 Su-30's we would have been in a far worse situation and it still wouldn't have made much difference in prevention of a surprise attack using modern weapons against Iranian costal targets off the Persian Gulf!
> Thank God we have Ballistic Missiles BUT we still can't restrict ourselves to Saudi Air Force Bases ONLY! Iran has too and will go after Saudi Oil and infrastructure that help fund, power & replenish the Saudi Air Force


im sorry i say it but i think you dont know very much about tactic in the war 
1.you dont need destroy all bunker you said over 100 bunkers how much fighter su have its funny maybe over 1000 fighter if iran hit on fighter with one missile is not good every fighter over 40 -60 mi dollars but every missile very fewer than that 
2.when you hit on bunker with 1 kinetic warhead with khoramshahr or emad or sejil you dont need hit it again with those missile you can hit it with shahabs or zolfhaghar or ....
3.what do you yhink about war between iran and su camel rider 10 years no dear maybe very much 3 months
4. did you think iran only attack with navy and or sams and our airforce do nothing they came and destroy our naval force dont be .... 
5 of course iran hit aramco and oil field in su every one think like that and i dont know why yemen dont hit them


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## AmirPatriot

VEVAK said:


> *I wanna know what assets you would take out, located where using what weapon system??? Just saying we will lob missiles at all their military bases is not a strategy.
> *
> It would take decades for Iran to rebuild it's Navy! You think the Saudi's are going to take out Iran's Navy & then sit with the U.S. and agree to give Iran a bunch of new ships + $50 Billion USD so the war would end? And under Trump! Really?
> 
> Logically, Saudi's would relocate most of their fleet to bases beyond 1000km to stay out of reach of Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, Qiam & Zolfaghar missiles so firing $500k - $1M missiles to destroy some concrete and asphalt at empty bases within 300-800km is absurd!
> And it would take us a decade to rebuild our Ballistic Missile stockpile so wasting our missiles on some empty bases is again absurd!
> 
> And Air Force targets beyond 1000km your looking at a few lucky shots but by the most part you'll be destroying runways and a few buildings with limited damage to some of their fighters at best.
> 
> As for the Saudi Navy you understand Saudi Arabia's main Naval base is in Jaddeh so you'll be firing missiles over Macca to reach them! Who do you think the Muslim world would blame if the Saudi's shoot down an Iranian missile heading towards Jaddeh which has to pass over Macca with fragments falling all over Kaaba?
> Talk about pissing off 2 billion people! Your better off going after Saudi Oil!
> 
> And hitting Naval bases without actually taking out the ships is worthless! Your not hitting anything that can't be replaced in a fairly short amount of time with limited financial damages!
> 
> My education is in Graphic Design & I'm not educated in military tactics but common sense is still common sense!
> Your saying even if the Saudi's wipeout Iran's Navy you still wouldn't go after what funds the Saudi Air Force! I'm sorry but that sound a bit naive to me!
> 
> Today your willing to give up the destruction of Iran's Navy, costal radar, SAM's, Helos, fighter jet, UAV's & the destruction of Iranian bases for $50 Billion USD what's next? Iranian Islands?
> How much would you want if they wanna take Persian Gulf, Abu Musa, Tumb koochee o bozorgh Islands in the Persian Gulf the year after? ​
> Iran's Navy is worth more than $50 Billion USD because NO ONE is going to sell us Kilo Subs & it would take Iran decades to rebuild it's Navy & Saudi's would have no fear of destroying it again!!!
> 
> This has NOTHIGN to do with revenge! This about teaching them a lesson! It's like the JCPOA now that Iran agreed to a deal they want more! And if Iran falls short of answering properly to any attack on it's assets then they will want more and they'll do it again!
> Revenge would be turning their cities into dust! A good spanking would be taking away their cash & that can only be accomplished by taking out Saudi OIL infrastructure...... And Iran just needs to take out half of their Oil infrastructure so they still have fear of loosing the other half if behave badly!
> 
> 
> F-15C equipped for Air Defense have a high combat radius and it's 40 F-15 C that's 8 F-15C deployed at 5 bases in the Air or on standby to maintain Air Superiority over northern Saudi boarder & the rest of the Saudi Air Force deployed over 1000km away can come in patrol vital areas and go back and park and land as bases beyond 1000km! (This is to stay out of rang of Iran's Qiam, Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar missiles)
> 
> As for the F-15E this is how may SDB you can put on an F-15E if they were to replace the two in the middle with a fuel pod and hit each target I mentioned with 2 SDB bombs that's still more than enough F-15E's to take out all the targets I mentioned and then some and they could do it from over 50km away outside Iranian Air Space!
> 
> 10 F-15E at Chabahar = 80 Targets, 20 F-15E at Bandar Abbas = 160 Targets & 20 F-15E at Busher ..... With 6 F-15C as escort & jamming for every 10 F-15E's and that's more than enough to take out far more targets that I mentioned....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If



The flaw in your argument is that you assume without question Saudi can destroy basically Iran's entire navy and much of its air defence infrastructure, after getting past S-300 and numerous other other systems. Yet I am supposed to actually explain how Iran would go about its own actions. Quite an unbalanced argument. So I think I will start picking holes in your argument. For one, I don't think the Saudis can do the damage you say they can. After all, Iranian Air Defence covers much of the Persian Gulf, and radars cover most of the region. Iran would not sit idle and let it all happen. The Saudis would most likely lose a bunch of aircraft, and at best only partially damage Iranian naval/air defence assets. 

Without that "concrete and asphalt" the Saudi Air Force is grounded. Ground their air force, and after a large missile strike that destroys air defences, the IRIAF can attack the hardened aircraft shelters and ships with precision. Remember - the IRIAF still maintains aerial refuelling aircraft, it has long range ASCMs like the Qader mounted on F-4s, and some standoff missiles on the Su-24. And remember Iran has the Soumar which, as a cruise missile, can just avoid the Mecca area completely with a little bit of course planning, and hit ships with great precision.

I largely think all this discussion is pointless because we cannot accurately predict what either side could do, would do, or wants to do. You cannot blend strategic decisions with tactical decisions so easily. I think Iran should:

1. Make a proportional response to any attack, which means if they attack small, we attack small, if they attack big, we attack big. Although, this does depend on the casus belli of the enemy, which you *still *have not outlined.

2. Try to force a ceasefire that would be in Iran's favour, like reparations and concessions on the Saudis, with the threat of further action if demands not met. If these demands are not met, the 3rd stage.

3. Destruction of Saudi strategic industry, like ports, oil facilities and power plants with ballistic missiles until the demands are met.

I have already told you, we cannot just "teach them a lesson" like it's nothing. They have the backing of the US and the US would be more than happy to have an excuse to deal some serious damage on Iran. That's why any escalation has to have a clearly defined objective, not as an escalation for unspecified lesson teaching.

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## raptor22

VEVAK said:


> The only way Iran's Ballistic Missiles could have any kind of desirable impact against Saudi Air Force is if we start the war & take preemptive action with good intel and that's something Iranian leaders would never do!!
> But in such a scenario you are prepared for Saudi retaliation so
> Your Navy is prepped with most of your subs & ships deployed so they don't become easy targets with radars on and personal ready to take action
> Your Air Force is prepped with assets moved and ready to scramble
> Your Air Defense is prepped your SAM's & radars are on and ready to take action long before an enemy fighter jet gets even close to your Air Space
> etc, etc, etc,
> 
> But if the Saudi's start the war they could easily take out a large portion of Iranian military assets in the south & it would be fairly standard for them to prep for Iran's retaliation and if that happens then NO Iranian missiles will not have much use against the Saudi Air Force! Naturally, we will fire missiles at their Air Force to disrupt operation but we can not individually target assets! Unless Iran can deploy hundreds of spy sats at various orbits that can feed you live intel on what bunker to hit and when then even with a CEP of 50 meters at over 1500km it is just not likely! At least not with Ballistic Missiles or Cruise missiles fired from Iran!
> 
> Iran would have to go after what funds, fuels, powers & commands the Saudi Air Force rather than the actual fighter jets!
> 
> That's the ONLY way we would be able to bring the Saudi's back down to reality & to make them understand that they miscalculated and ensure that they don't do it again!
> 
> If the Saudi's wipeout Iran's Navy and we respond by destroying some runways & buildings at a few Saudi Air Force bases and the Saudi's go and say we made a mistake, we give up and lets start peace talks that means they are playing us for fools and that will only ensure that they do it again once Iran rebuilds it's Navy! Unless they agree to hand over their Navy to us we would have to be fools to accept such nonsense and we would HAVE to go after Saudi money which means we have to go after Saudi Oil to make them hurt so they never make such an idiotic move again!



I think Iran air defense forces at least in early warning part doing good job, if Saudis would start a massive attack on Iran with their air force (Like what Saddam did at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war which luckily failed) and we couldn't defend ourselves and receive damage in that level and lose our naval forces and air bases in south then to be honest my friend we've lost the game already ... 'cause being surprised in war just means defeat .. I don't think we would never start a war and that means we should always be prepared to defend which obviously needs to have an eye on your foes all the time to not get surprised. but again by referring to Iran and Iraq war, despite clear attempts and provocation of Saddam since Esfand 57 we didn't respond very well and eventually war started which could have prevented and saved country from such a war.
I do agree with you that we need to escalate situation if war starts, because if you don't do that it means you give them this message that what ever they do Iran responses are limited to some missile attack on some military targets without any serious damage which undoubtedly would encourage them to attack again but if you have a strong defend system that repel their attacks causing them severe damage and then a crushing respond they would recalculate their strategy , it could first prevent war from getting prolonged and secondly a clear message to others that Iran would not hesitate a second to defend itself.


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## N_Al40

@raptor22 @AmirPatriot @VEVAK

You are all overstating the effectiveness of Saudi Air Defences. 

Be realistic and read this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...east/saudi-missile-defense.html?smid=tw-share

Saudi Air Defence my a**

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## AmirPatriot

N_Al40 said:


> @raptor22 @AmirPatriot @VEVAK
> 
> You are all overstating the effectiveness of Saudi Air Defences.
> 
> Be realistic and read this article:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...east/saudi-missile-defense.html?smid=tw-share
> 
> Saudi Air Defence my a**



I was just about to link this great article to @PeeD. It's on my clipboard and everything.

Nevertheless, don't be too confident. Saudi at this time only have the PAC-2. The PAC-3 and THAAD that they are buying are more capable systems. But still, this is an interesting development.

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## N_Al40

AmirPatriot said:


> I was just about to link this to @PeeD. It's on my clipboard and everything.
> 
> Nevertheless, don't be too confident. Saudi at this time only have the PAC-2. The PAC-3 and THAAD that they are buying are more capable systems. But still, this is an interesting development.



What?! I thought they already have the PAC-3!

Even then, a good read considering their PAC-2 has been modernized and upgraded, and this is its effectiveness against a mere Scud-C BM.


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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> I was just about to link this great article to @PeeD. It's on my clipboard and everything.
> 
> Nevertheless, don't be too confident. Saudi at this time only have the PAC-2. The PAC-3 and THAAD that they are buying are more capable systems. But still, this is an interesting development.



Saudis Pac2 missiles were fired from here, west of the Riyadh airport.


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## eagle2007

ALCON,

Bit of a brain storm here folks so I apologize in advance of the length of this post. 

First, lets be perfectly clear. "On paper", it's hard to see how the Saudis could be more prepared for a conflict with Iran (with a few exceptions addressed below). The question is, how well can they use their excellent kit?

It's interesting, at least to me, how the Saudis & Iranian defenses are set up to deal with certain threats, and the possible pitfalls they face. For example..

1) Cruise Missiles (regardless of target)- Iranian military planners have clearly paid attention to the USAF/USN use of LACMs in nearly every conflict since 1991. These are still a difficult threat to deal with for any military.
> For the Saudis, due to their aging Shahine SAMs (their only real low-level SAM), they relay on the RSAF to not only provide early warning (via E-3s/Saab 2000s, likely much earlier than any ground-based radar could) but also likely in their neutralization via fighter jets. 
> For Iran, they have no airborne early warning to a cruise missile attack and instead are forced to relay entirely on ground-based radar units. Likewise, as the IRIAF is ill-suited to task of dispatching large #s of LACMs, ground-based SHORADs and deception (GPS jammers for example) are their only real defense. 

2) Runway Attack- The reliance on long, undamaged runways, was identified VERY early in the Cold War and was one of the chief drivers behind the development of the British Harrier (folks forget that putting it on a carrier was something of an afterthought). Curiously though, the idea eventually fell out of favor (for any number of reasons). Such attacks can come from accurate, sub-munition warhead equipped ballistic missiles, low-flying strike aircraft, or cruise-missiles with sub-munition warheads.
>As such, a successfully attack on the runways of RSAF air bases is a real threat. Their only real defense is their Patriot batteries or the preventive elimination of enemy launch sites & TELs. Hiding their valuable combat aircraft is fine and dandy, but if the Patriots fail to keep a majority of missiles from impacting, quickly repairing the runways after each wave of attack will become a game of persistence and possible futility. 
>>WILDCARD- Given growing signs of a greater Egypt-Saudi alliance, Egypt could potentially open her airfields to the RSAF to evacuate to temporarily. Putting their most valuable assets (tankers, AWACs, & F-15S/SA) as far West as possible will allow them to still be able to operate in their own airspace from a safer distance (where Iran would be forced to use her more long-range BMs, which limits the saturation factor and gives Egyptian Patriot & S-300V batteries better odds of success). Not to mention if Iran does attack these new locations for the RSAF, it drags another powerful military into the conflict, expanding the conflict likely beyond Iran's ability to control. 
>For Iran, this threat doesn't come from ballistic missiles but from the RSAF. The inventory of weapons available to the RSAF to attack IRIAF bases from afar (aka outside of most of their SAMs, including the S-300PMU2 in some cases). How many such weapons are configured with sub-munition warheads is unknown. Only options to protect runways is via SHORADs and electronic jamming. 

3) Hardened Aircraft Shelters or HAS- I'm NOT as confident Iran is prepared to deal with these. For modern HAS, a true bunker-buster bomb would be needed, something Iran has not demonstrated having yet. The Ghased (not to detract from it) is "just" a normal 2000lb bomb with a TV seeker and wing kit. Bunker-busters have specially designed warheads and often hardened tips to maximize penetration upon impact. Iran's KAB-1500Ls are probably the closet to real bunker-busters we know about and more so due to their larger warheads. 

4) Wild Weasel Attacks- aka attacks on ground-based air defense sites. This can come from manned/unmanned platforms and from cruise missiles.
>The threat to Saudi radar sites would likely come from a combination of Iranian suicide drones, LACMs (if the Soumar has been built in large #s), and ballistic missiles (Hormuz-2 being a prime candidate). This multi-pronged threat would be difficult to deal with. It would difficult for the RSADF and RSAF to determine which targets were real threats or decoys. 
>This threat to Iran comes solely from the RSAF, which has a surprisingly large inventory of medium-range LACMs (~1100), ~350 JSOW stand-off weapons & 600 AGM-88s in their inventory. They obviously wouldn't use ALL their LACMs on Iranian radar/SAM sites but they are among the "best" targets. They also have large inventories of many other kinds of smart munitions (thousands of Hellfires, Mavericks, Paveways, JDAMs, and SDBs) which also could be used, depending on the threat level to the aircraft. 

5) Naval Attack- Easily the most lop-sided element of any future conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia is on the sea. 
> For the RSN, the threats from Iran are numerous. Coastal AshM batteries, ASBMs, mini-submarines, and swarms of variously-armed FACs. Not reliant on runways, the Saudis best strategy (assuming the RSAF is grounded) would be to use their large fleet of AH-64s from the ground forces, combined with the RSN's respectable inventory of helos to try and deal with Iranian swarm attacks and submarines. 
> For the IRIN/IRCN, the primary threat is again from the RSAF. Should it be removed from the playing field, the RSN's surface fleet with be very exposed. Even with my proposed helo strategy, equipped every surface vessel over 50 tons displacement with at least 1 MANPAD team (& then spreading some among the smaller vessels) will diminish that threat considerably. 

This "little" brain storm excludes a lot of tactics, how I think such a conflict could start, and the very idea of the US intervening...which it ABSOLUTELY would under the current administration, no matter who starts it. 

Cheers.

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## AmirPatriot

eagle2007 said:


> Bit of a brain storm here folks so I apologize in advance of the length of this post.



No need to apologise. The more the merrier. 

Your post highlights how the lack of a competitive air force (and the accompanying weapon systems) really put Iran behind the curve on many fronts - SEAD, naval combat, targeting enemy aircraft on the ground, detection. It is a real pain to lack such a versatile force.


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## VEVAK

ashool said:


> im sorry i say it but i think you dont know very much about tactic in the war
> 1.you dont need destroy all bunker you said over 100 bunkers how much fighter su have its funny maybe over 1000 fighter if iran hit on fighter with one missile is not good every fighter over 40 -60 mi dollars but every missile very fewer than that
> 2.when you hit on bunker with 1 kinetic warhead with khoramshahr or emad or sejil you dont need hit it again with those missile you can hit it with shahabs or zolfhaghar or ....
> 3.what do you yhink about war between iran and su camel rider 10 years no dear maybe very much 3 months
> 4. did you think iran only attack with navy and or sams and our airforce do nothing they came and destroy our naval force dont be ....
> 5 of course iran hit aramco and oil field in su every one think like that and i dont know why yemen dont hit them



If you think we should and will go after Saudi Oil and ports that ship Saudi Oil then why the hell are you arguing with me????????? You should be arguing with Amir who thinks we shouldn't be hitting those targets because they are civilian targets and we don't want to escalate even after they take out most of our Naval capabilities 

My entire argument is about the fact that we can waist missiles that cost up to a million usd each on empty bases and Iranian Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, Zolfaghar, Qiam, Raad,... Missiles will have to target Saudi Oil Facilities and Saudi ports that export Oil & power plants that power their Air Force & Naval bases.....

And if I have to keep repeating my self I will! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAYLOAD or the kinetic power of Iranian Ballistic missiles. Those things mean nothing without accuracy, reliability and live actionable intel! 

Saudi's would naturally move their fighters and ships to bases beyond 1000km away prior to an attack to keep them out of range of Iranian Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, Zolfaghar, Qiam, Raad, Ya-Ali missiles,...! 

And this idea that you have that every Iranian Sejil, Emad, Khoramshar & Ghadr missile fired is going to land within it's designated CEP every single time is ONLY wishful thinking!
When they are expecting a retaliation at least 20% of your missiles will get intercepted and another 50% of the missiles will fail to achieve their designated CEP! So even if you had a CEP of 50 meters (which they don't)
that is still are not accurate enough to target individual Aircraft bunkers.

And there are well over 250 targets that you'll need to hit at and around King Fahad AFB base that is over 1300 km from Iran & you'll need another 50 direct hits to make sure nothing can takeoff from that base so yes to fully take out that one base alone you'll need well over 500 MRBM with a CEP of 20-50 meters! Iran needs to go after Saudi oil and any facility that helps fund and power their Air Force

That doesn't mean Iran is not going to target that base, Yes Iran will hit some runways & drop a bunch of missiles with cluster warheads that will cause havoc and disrupt operation but it would be absurd for Iran to go after individual bunkers using it's current MRBM


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## eagle2007

AmirPatriot,

Let me be clear, when it comes to naval matters, Iran doesn't need the RSAF to be grounded to wipe out most of the RSN fleet. If still active however, the RSAF will easily wipe out any surface combatant over a 200 tons or so displacement in a matter of hours and all while the RSN sits in port (likely regardless of whether these vessels take any hostile action first). Even with the RSAF out of action, there's no sense in sending any of the IRIN large surface combatants against the RSN fleet, as they would likely lose any head-on confrontation. Best to keep their distance and take a few AshM potshots to possibly herd/lure the RSN vessels into an ambush. 

Iran's ability conduct SEAD actions is largely a guess based on what I've seen. Ideally, Iran would target Saudi Patriot sites with a mix of Soumars (against assuming they've been built in enough numbers), with Karrar drones launched simultaneously to cause confusion and increase the odds of the real LACMs making it to the target. Wouldn't hurt to fit some of the Karrar "decoys" with small HE warheads as well and send them to the rough GPS coordinates of the intended targets as a cheap fail-safe. Specifically, you want to target the Patriot batteries radars, as they make for a small number of targets (thus easily to swarm) and without radars, all those launchers the Saudis have would be useless, at least temporarily. Using the Hormuz-2 is also a factor but also a wildcard, as it could be targeted by the very thing it is targeting. 

All the pieces to pull off such a strategy are there, just don't know if anyone there has thought it out and I may have missed some factors making such a strategy more problematic. 

Also, just some background the Saudis and their Patriots. 

From what I can gather, the Saudis are currently converting their existing PAC-2s to PAC-3s. Whether this will be ALL their existing Patriots batteries or if they are going for a mix, I'm not sure. Again, exactly how many Patriot launchers the Saudis have is hard to nail down. My research suggests a figure of 80-90 launchers is quite possible and that maybe a low-ball estimate. The number of missiles imported is VERY high. According to SIPRI's databases (backed up by defense news reports), we're looking at as many as 1774 PAC-2 missiles and 320 PAC-3 missiles, with more PAC-3s coming (~600 PAC-3 missiles ordered back in 2015). 

Saudi Patriot sites often have 6-9 launchers surrounding a central concrete pedestal where the MPQ-53/65 is positioned. These sites are all very pre-prepared, with the whole launch site being concrete. Some of these sites even have some partial concrete shelters surrounding the launchers to protect them from damage from explosions. However, Patriots can be positioned off-road, though they still don't "shoot and scoot" like S-300/400s can.

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## Arminkh

eagle2007 said:


> ALCON,
> 
> Bit of a brain storm here folks so I apologize in advance of the length of this post.
> 
> First, lets be perfectly clear. "On paper", it's hard to see how the Saudis could be more prepared for a conflict with Iran (with a few exceptions addressed below). The question is, how well can they use their excellent kit?
> 
> It's interesting, at least to me, how the Saudis & Iranian defenses are set up to deal with certain threats, and the possible pitfalls they face. For example..
> 
> 1) Cruise Missiles (regardless of target)- Iranian military planners have clearly paid attention to the USAF/USN use of LACMs in nearly every conflict since 1991. These are still a difficult threat to deal with for any military.
> > For the Saudis, due to their aging Shahine SAMs (their only real low-level SAM), they relay on the RSAF to not only provide early warning (via E-3s/Saab 2000s, likely much earlier than any ground-based radar could) but also likely in their neutralization via fighter jets.
> > For Iran, they have no airborne early warning to a cruise missile attack and instead are forced to relay entirely on ground-based radar units. Likewise, as the IRIAF is ill-suited to task of dispatching large #s of LACMs, ground-based SHORADs and deception (GPS jammers for example) are their only real defense.
> 
> 2) Runway Attack- The reliance on long, undamaged runways, was identified VERY early in the Cold War and was one of the chief drivers behind the development of the British Harrier (folks forget that putting it on a carrier was something of an afterthought). Curiously though, the idea eventually fell out of favor (for any number of reasons). Such attacks can come from accurate, sub-munition warhead equipped ballistic missiles, low-flying strike aircraft, or cruise-missiles with sub-munition warheads.
> >As such, a successfully attack on the runways of RSAF air bases is a real threat. Their only real defense is their Patriot batteries or the preventive elimination of enemy launch sites & TELs. Hiding their valuable combat aircraft is fine and dandy, but if the Patriots fail to keep a majority of missiles from impacting, quickly repairing the runways after each wave of attack will become a game of persistence and possible futility.
> >>WILDCARD- Given growing signs of a greater Egypt-Saudi alliance, Egypt could potentially open her airfields to the RSAF to evacuate to temporarily. Putting their most valuable assets (tankers, AWACs, & F-15S/SA) as far West as possible will allow them to still be able to operate in their own airspace from a safer distance (where Iran would be forced to use her more long-range BMs, which limits the saturation factor and gives Egyptian Patriot & S-300V batteries better odds of success). Not to mention if Iran does attack these new locations for the RSAF, it drags another powerful military into the conflict, expanding the conflict likely beyond Iran's ability to control.
> >For Iran, this threat doesn't come from ballistic missiles but from the RSAF. The inventory of weapons available to the RSAF to attack IRIAF bases from afar (aka outside of most of their SAMs, including the S-300PMU2 in some cases). How many such weapons are configured with sub-munition warheads is unknown. Only options to protect runways is via SHORADs and electronic jamming.
> 
> 3) Hardened Aircraft Shelters or HAS- I'm NOT as confident Iran is prepared to deal with these. For modern HAS, a true bunker-buster bomb would be needed, something Iran has not demonstrated having yet. The Ghased (not to detract from it) is "just" a normal 2000lb bomb with a TV seeker and wing kit. Bunker-busters have specially designed warheads and often hardened tips to maximize penetration upon impact. Iran's KAB-1500Ls are probably the closet to real bunker-busters we know about and more so due to their larger warheads.
> 
> 4) Wild Weasel Attacks- aka attacks on ground-based air defense sites. This can come from manned/unmanned platforms and from cruise missiles.
> >The threat to Saudi radar sites would likely come from a combination of Iranian suicide drones, LACMs (if the Soumar has been built in large #s), and ballistic missiles (Hormuz-2 being a prime candidate). This multi-pronged threat would be difficult to deal with. It would difficult for the RSADF and RSAF to determine which targets were real threats or decoys.
> >This threat to Iran comes solely from the RSAF, which has a surprisingly large inventory of medium-range LACMs (~1100), ~350 JSOW stand-off weapons & 600 AGM-88s in their inventory. They obviously wouldn't use ALL their LACMs on Iranian radar/SAM sites but they are among the "best" targets. They also have large inventories of many other kinds of smart munitions (thousands of Hellfires, Mavericks, Paveways, JDAMs, and SDBs) which also could be used, depending on the threat level to the aircraft.
> 
> 5) Naval Attack- Easily the most lop-sided element of any future conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia is on the sea.
> > For the RSN, the threats from Iran are numerous. Coastal AshM batteries, ASBMs, mini-submarines, and swarms of variously-armed FACs. Not reliant on runways, the Saudis best strategy (assuming the RSAF is grounded) would be to use their large fleet of AH-64s from the ground forces, combined with the RSN's respectable inventory of helos to try and deal with Iranian swarm attacks and submarines.
> > For the IRIN/IRCN, the primary threat is again from the RSAF. Should it be removed from the playing field, the RSN's surface fleet with be very exposed. Even with my proposed helo strategy, equipped every surface vessel over 50 tons displacement with at least 1 MANPAD team (& then spreading some among the smaller vessels) will diminish that threat considerably.
> 
> This "little" brain storm excludes a lot of tactics, how I think such a conflict could start, and the very idea of the US intervening...which it ABSOLUTELY would under the current administration, no matter who starts it.
> 
> Cheers.


I think one thing your analysis is missing is infrastructure and its vulnerability to missile attack. Iran doesn't need to destroy every single bunker, fighter jet, air base and radar to win the war.

Just by looking at the population of KSA and its geography, you will know the current population is only sustainable due to use of technology, i.e. power plants, desalination plants and power assisted farming and cattle farms. KSA natural environment cannot support any real farming or large size cattle farms and for that matter its current population.

All Iran needs to do is to attack power plants, refineries, oilfields, desalination plants and ports to limit any imports. That would bring KSA to its knees and half of its population will suffer from lack of water and food. On the other hand, as war with Iraq showed, Iran is much less sensitive to loss of infrastructure while its strategic depth will always protect at least half of its infrastructure from any attacking party that wants to use air force.

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## VEVAK

raptor22 said:


> I think Iran air defense forces at least in early warning part doing good job, if Saudis would start a massive attack on Iran with their air force (Like what Saddam did at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war which luckily failed) and we couldn't defend ourselves and receive damage in that level and lose our naval forces and air bases in south then to be honest my friend we've lost the game already ... 'cause being surprised in war just means defeat .. I don't think we would never start a war and that means we should always be prepared to defend which obviously needs to have an eye on your foes all the time to not get surprised. but again by referring to Iran and Iraq war, despite clear attempts and provocation of Saddam since Esfand 57 we didn't respond very well and eventually war started which could have prevented and saved country from such a war.
> I do agree with you that we need to escalate situation if war starts, because if you don't do that it means you give them this message that what ever they do Iran responses are limited to some missile attack on some military targets without any serious damage which undoubtedly would encourage them to attack again but if you have a strong defend system that repel their attacks causing them severe damage and then a crushing respond they would recalculate their strategy , it could first prevent war from getting prolonged and secondly a clear message to others that Iran would not hesitate a second to defend itself.



Yup Iran would have to at lease wipe out half of their Oil infrastructure instantly but leave the other half so they still fear loosing more!
We also have to hit a few Power plants, oil rigs, ports that ship oil! And these are assets that the Saudi's can't move & Iranian missiles can easily destroy!

To end the war and prevent such action from ever happening again Iran's response needs to be disproportionate and you need to hit and destroy assets that cause financial pain to a point that shocks them! And Iran has the capability to do that as long as we don't restrict ourselves to military bases!





N_Al40 said:


> @raptor22 @AmirPatriot @VEVAK
> 
> You are all overstating the effectiveness of Saudi Air Defences.
> 
> Be realistic and read this article:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...east/saudi-missile-defense.html?smid=tw-share
> 
> Saudi Air Defence my a**




It's NOT about Saudi Air Defense! At best Saudi Air Defense will intercept 20 out of every 100 missile fired on that base but out of the 80 that land even if the CEP of all Iranian MRBM were 50 meters (Which they are NOT)only ~ 40 of them will land within that CEP! 
so out of 300 missiles fired only 120 will land within a CEP of 50 meters and that's just not accurate enough to ensure that you'll take out a target inside a hardened Aircraft bunker
Also, there are over 120 Aircraft bunkers and you'll need another 40 hits on runways and strips that aircrafts could possibly take off from or land on
So we are up to 400 MRBM and you still haven't targeted 100's of other bunkers & facilities located at and around that base!
So you've just emptied out 400 MRBM and for all you knew there were only handful of fighters on the ground at the time the missiles hit because the Saudi early warning systems, sat's,.... picked up your launches and scrambled most of the fighters at that base because they were expecting worst case scenarios and were monitoring your launches!

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## VEVAK

eagle2007 said:


> AmirPatriot,
> 
> Let me be clear, when it comes to naval matters, Iran doesn't need the RSAF to be grounded to wipe out most of the RSN fleet. If still active however, the RSAF will easily wipe out any surface combatant over a 200 tons or so displacement in a matter of hours and all while the RSN sits in port (likely regardless of whether these vessels take any hostile action first). Even with the RSAF out of action, there's no sense in sending any of the IRIN large surface combatants against the RSN fleet, as they would likely lose any head-on confrontation. Best to keep their distance and take a few AshM potshots to possibly herd/lure the RSN vessels into an ambush.
> 
> Iran's ability conduct SEAD actions is largely a guess based on what I've seen. Ideally, Iran would target Saudi Patriot sites with a mix of Soumars (against assuming they've been built in enough numbers), with Karrar drones launched simultaneously to cause confusion and increase the odds of the real LACMs making it to the target. Wouldn't hurt to fit some of the Karrar "decoys" with small HE warheads as well and send them to the rough GPS coordinates of the intended targets as a cheap fail-safe. Specifically, you want to target the Patriot batteries radars, as they make for a small number of targets (thus easily to swarm) and without radars, all those launchers the Saudis have would be useless, at least temporarily. Using the Hormuz-2 is also a factor but also a wildcard, as it could be targeted by the very thing it is targeting.
> 
> All the pieces to pull off such a strategy are there, just don't know if anyone there has thought it out and I may have missed some factors making such a strategy more problematic.
> 
> Also, just some background the Saudis and their Patriots.
> 
> From what I can gather, the Saudis are currently converting their existing PAC-2s to PAC-3s. Whether this will be ALL their existing Patriots batteries or if they are going for a mix, I'm not sure. Again, exactly how many Patriot launchers the Saudis have is hard to nail down. My research suggests a figure of 80-90 launchers is quite possible and that maybe a low-ball estimate. The number of missiles imported is VERY high. According to SIPRI's databases (backed up by defense news reports), we're looking at as many as 1774 PAC-2 missiles and 320 PAC-3 missiles, with more PAC-3s coming (~600 PAC-3 missiles ordered back in 2015).
> 
> Saudi Patriot sites often have 6-9 launchers surrounding a central concrete pedestal where the MPQ-53/65 is positioned. These sites are all very pre-prepared, with the whole launch site being concrete. Some of these sites even have some partial concrete shelters surrounding the launchers to protect them from damage from explosions. However, Patriots can be positioned off-road, though they still don't "shoot and scoot" like S-300/400s can.



If the Saudi's plan to attack Iran's Navy they would most likely move most of their Persian Gulf Fleet which consists of outdated corvettes, FAC, patrol boats & minesweepers out to the Red Sea where their newer ships are located they would also move most of their air assets out of reach of Iranian SRBM & most of their helo's & SAM's to secondary designated locations outside their standard known bases.
It's a logical countermeasure and you don't need to be a brilliant military tactician to know that if you plan on attacking a country like Iran then you also need to plan for Iran's retaliation.

And yes Saudi's can easily hit any Iranian sub or ship that is "docked" but the ones that remain can easily go and hunt down any Saudi Vessel in the Persian Gulf especially any Iranian midget sub that's left if the Saudi's are stupid enough to keep any of their ships inside the Persian Gulf and they would have to be even stupider to keep their Persian Gulf fleet docked!

Iran has many Islands in the Persian Gulf and a good number of them are smack in the middle of the Gulf and they are armed to the teeth with missiles & UAV's 


As for any kind of SEAD operation it really depends on who initiates the attack. If Iran's the aggressor, clearly Iran will use various tactics to locate any Saudi Air Defense locations prior to any kind of attack and clearly they would take countermeasures to protect their assets against retaliatory attacks...

But if Iran is NOT the aggressor I would say Iranian military leaders are smart enough to know that the Saudi's would have taken countermeasures to protect their assets & that the Saudi's have access to U.S. intel that would warn them of mass missile launches from large and known Iranian missile bases allowing them to scramble fighters they have at bases beyond 1000km.... 
I would say Iranian leadership knows that they will NEVER be the aggressor which means they also know that they have NO CHOICE but to go after Saudi Oil facilities and Saudi ports that export Saudi Oil. 
And since Saudi Oil is the ONLY source of income for the Saudi Military that makes it a legitimate military target!

It is absurd to think that after the Saudi's take out a large portion of Iran's Blue water and Sub capabilities that Iran would hold it's self back and reframe from going after what fuels and funds the Saudi Military and that is Saudi Oil! And it's as absurd as saying ISIS Oil tankers should have been considered as Civilian Targets and Russia should have been condemned for acts against humanity for taking out unarmed ISIS Oil Tankers! 
Like it or not but if Oil is the ONLY scours of income for your military then it's clearly a legitimate military target! 
Even if Iran had 500 Su-30's we would still have to go after Saudi Oil!

As for Saudi Air and Missile defense systems Iran can put a large number of decoys in 1 out of every 10 MRBM they fire so it's doubtful that the Saudi's would be able to intercept even 20% of incoming Iranian missiles

So I would say Iranian money is better spent on increasing the accuracy and reliability of Iranian MRBM by building a better more reliable PBV & smart reentry vehicle rather than wasting a large number of MRBM stockpile trying to go after Saudi SAM's in a retaliatory attack


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## raptor22

Arminkh said:


> I think one thing your analysis is missing is infrastructure and its vulnerability to missile attack. Iran doesn't need to destroy every single bunker, fighter jet, air base and radar to win the war.
> 
> Just by looking at the population of KSA and its geography, you will know the current population is only sustainable due to use of technology, i.e. power plants, desalination plants and power assisted farming and cattle farms. KSA natural environment cannot support any real farming or large size cattle farms and for that matter its current population.
> 
> All Iran needs to do is to attack power plants, refineries, oilfields, desalination plants and ports to limit any imports. That would bring KSA to its knees and half of its population will suffer from lack of water and food. On the other hand, as war with Iraq showed, Iran is much less sensitive to loss of infrastructure while its strategic depth will always protect at least half of its infrastructure from any attacking party that wants to use air force.



But our oil platforms and ports and other related infrastructure that we rely on for revenue are located in Persian gulf and Straight of Hormuz next to Saudis not deep in Iran territories.


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## Arminkh

raptor22 said:


> But our oil platforms and ports and other related infrastructure that we rely on for revenue are located in Persian gulf and Straight of Hormuz next to Saudis not deep in Iran territories.


Agreed. But it is not any closer to them then it was to Iraq. And in case nothing gets in or out of the country, Iran has a much larger chance of survival than KSA.

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## AmirPatriot

Arminkh said:


> Agreed. But it is not any closer to them then it was to Iraq. And in case nothing gets in or out of the country, Iran has a much larger chance of survival than KSA.



But back then we had a proper air force to defend them. Now we don't have that. And we don't have potent air defence based in the Persian Gulf. Relying on land based air defence alone cannot prevent offshore platforms from aerial attack. The SDB, for example, is a glide bomb carried by Saudi F-15s that has a range of 110 km. That means Saudi F-15s could launch attacks on offshore oil and gas rigs using just bombs and not more expensive missiles (though cost doesn't really matter for them).

Another reason why we need a good air force, and also a potent air defence destroyer.

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> But back then we had a proper air force to defend them. Now we don't have that. And we don't have potent air defence based in the Persian Gulf. Relying on land based air defence alone cannot prevent offshore platforms from aerial attack. The SDB, for example, is a glide bomb carried by Saudi F-15s that has a range of 110 km. That means Saudi F-15s could launch attacks on offshore oil and gas rigs using just bombs and not more expensive missiles (though cost doesn't really matter for them).
> 
> Another reason why we need a good air force, and also a potent air defence destroyer.


Which we can not have at least for next 4 to 5 years if we wanna buy and more than a decade if we decide right now to design and produce one locally by our own.

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## Muhammed45

raptor22 said:


> Which we can not have at least for next 4 to 5 years if we wanna buy and more than a decade if we decide right now to design and produce one locally by our own.


If Russia agrees to sell us some SU-30s , without TOT , we can purchase only 12 fighters per year. Sukhoi company receives a lot of orders from around the world. A long queue !!!!

JCPOA was signed in 2015/January/14, arms embargo will be lifted after 5 years. 2020/January/14. WTF? Negotiating team were a bunch of blind/clueless/stupids. Forget it. Until 2020 there will be no foreign fighters for us. Better to work on a homemade stuff. If the peaceful stupids did not cut it's budget, we can easily design a Mig-29-class fighter jet which can at least defend us against cruise missiles.


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## AmirPatriot

raptor22 said:


> Which we can not have at least for next 4 to 5 years if we wanna buy and more than a decade if we decide right now to design and produce one locally by our own.



Yes, we should pursue our own aircraft program. But just because we have our program doesn't mean we shouldn't buy foreign aircraft, just in case.



mohammad45 said:


> JCPOA was signed in 2015/January/14, arms embargo will be lifted after 5 years. 2020/January/14.



Deal was signed in June, Implementation day started in October. So we have to wait till October 2020. 2 years and 10 months left. Went by rather quickly didn't it? And consider that while we're waiting, the Russians can manufacture Su-30s. So they can deliver a large batch in 2020. That is, if Iran actually hurries up and signs the deal already...



mohammad45 said:


> Negotiating team were a bunch of blind/clueless/stupids



Considering the P5+1 were talking about keeping it indefinitely, I think they did ok. You can't expect immediate arms sanction lifting.

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## Muhammed45

AmirPatriot said:


> Deal was signed in June, Implementation day started in October. So we have to wait till October 2020. 2 years and 10 months left. Went by rather quickly didn't it? And consider that while we're waiting, the Russians can manufacture Su-30s. So they can deliver a large batch in 2020. That is, if Iran actually hurries up and signs the deal already...










AmirPatriot said:


> Considering the P5+1 were talking about keeping it indefinitely, I think they did ok. You can't expect immediate arms sanction lifting.


Well, i thought they have added that term voluntarily. Some news websites reported that.

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> Yes, we should pursue our own aircraft program. But just because we have our program doesn't mean we shouldn't buy foreign aircraft, just in case.
> 
> 
> 
> Deal was signed in June, Implementation day started in October. So we have to wait till October 2020. 2 years and 10 months left. Went by rather quickly didn't it? And consider that while we're waiting, the Russians can manufacture Su-30s. So they can deliver a large batch in 2020. That is, if Iran actually hurries up and signs the deal already...
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the P5+1 were talking about keeping it indefinitely, I think they did ok. You can't expect immediate arms sanction lifting.


If they haven't realized the importance of superior Air force they're not gonna get it for the next decade too neither.
I said 4~5 years by considering the idea that I think no deal has been inked or will before that date which means at least it would take 2 years more if we sign it in Dec 2020 considering Russian bad record in supporting and providing spare parts of Mig-29s in 90s I don't count on it. though I've seen many people claims Su-30s are under way not to mention all these possible if nuclear deal survives till that date. 
By the way I hope there would a real indigenous big fighter jet program and one day some guys come up and said we've working on such a program and now here you are like this:

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## AmirPatriot

mohammad45 said:


> Well, i thought they have added that term voluntarily. Some news websites reported that.


 at those websites. These were negotiated as part of the JCPOA, since they are UN sanctions put into place because of the nuclear issue.


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## Muhammed45

AmirPatriot said:


> at those websites. These were negotiated as part of the JCPOA, since they are UN sanctions put into place because of the nuclear issue.


I mean the term of 5 years delay was voluntarily chosen by our team. Even China and Russia were complaining about it but our team willingly trusted western side. They shouldve insisted on removing arms embargo immediately right after signing the deal. BTW, it's in the past bro, i hope you were right. Otherwise that's a big loss.


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## TheImmortal

mohammad45 said:


> I mean the term of 5 years delay was voluntarily chosen by our team. Even China and Russia were complaining about it but our team willingly trusted western side. They shouldve insisted on removing arms embargo immediately right after signing the deal. BTW, it's in the past bro, i hope you were right. Otherwise that's a big loss.



It was chosen due to mixture of naiveness/inexperience of negotiating team as well as the thinking it's still probably improbable that Russia or a China would sell iran weapons wether the embargo was lifted sooner.

I have my doubts that Iran will acquire substantial offensive weaponary from either country. Russia is easy to be pressured. And China is not desperate for money and likes to keep "balance" in the Middle East.

Iran needs a class of navy destroyers with a modern design it can later reverse engineer on its own (Chinese or Russian) , another long range air defense system (s-400 or wait for s-500) as well as possible short range air defense system, fighter jets, AWACS, refueling aircraft, attack helicopters.

Things like tanks, APCs/IFVs are also needed but not a priority as the threat of major land invasion is relatively low.

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## AmirPatriot

mohammad45 said:


> I mean the term of 5 years delay was voluntarily chosen by our team. Even China and Russia were complaining about it but our team willingly trusted western side. They shouldve insisted on removing arms embargo immediately right after signing the deal.



No-one willingly puts themselves under an arms embargo. IIRC, Khamenei himself said that while economic sanctions should be lifted immediately, while arms sanctions could wait a bit.



TheImmortal said:


> it's still probably improbable that Russia or a China would sell iran weapons wether the embargo was lifted sooner.
> 
> I have my doubts that Iran will acquire substantial offensive weaponary from either country. Russia is easy to be pressured. And China is not desperate for money and likes to keep "balance" in the Middle East.
> 
> Iran needs a class of navy destroyers with a modern design it can later reverse engineer on its own (Chinese or Russian) , another long range air defense system (s-400 or wait for s-500) as well as possible short range air defense system, fighter jets, AWACS, refueling aircraft, attack helicopters.
> 
> Things like tanks, APCs/IFVs are also needed but not a priority as the threat of major land invasion is relatively low.


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## raptor22

Arminkh said:


> Agreed. But it is not any closer to them then it was to Iraq. And in case nothing gets in or out of the country, Iran has a much larger chance of survival than KSA.



I forgot to mention that Saudis have missiles too, if you attack they would respond.. surly not in same proportion but they do. they've got df-3 from 80s and df-21 from 2007.

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## Arminkh

AmirPatriot said:


> But back then we had a proper air force to defend them. Now we don't have that. And we don't have potent air defence based in the Persian Gulf. Relying on land based air defence alone cannot prevent offshore platforms from aerial attack. The SDB, for example, is a glide bomb carried by Saudi F-15s that has a range of 110 km. That means Saudi F-15s could launch attacks on offshore oil and gas rigs using just bombs and not more expensive missiles (though cost doesn't really matter for them).
> 
> Another reason why we need a good air force, and also a potent air defence destroyer.


I agree. I didn't say we are not going to suffer any losses. However, in a case of war, it will be a decisive war that both sides will hammer each other to death until only one will barely survive. I simply said Iran has a larger chance of survival just because of its geography.


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## AmirPatriot

Arminkh said:


> I agree. I didn't say we are not going to suffer any losses. However, in a case of war, it will be a decisive war that both sides will hammer each other to death until only one will barely survive. I simply said Iran has a larger chance of survival just because of its geography.



Well, I don't know about that. While I maintain that the Saudis have escalation dominance (because of the US), that doesn't mean they will go all out. Iran is more than capable of outright shutting down Saudi oil production. The Saudis do not want to run that risk, so they wouldn't escalate it to the point of hammering each other to death. Most likely it will be limited to a naval/aerial battle. There is little material gain in a victory (if they can attain it) of this type for the Saudis, but it would embarrass us and make them look good.

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## Arminkh

AmirPatriot said:


> Well, I don't know about that. While I maintain that the Saudis have escalation dominance (because of the US), that doesn't mean they will go all out. Iran is more than capable of outright shutting down Saudi oil production. The Saudis do not want to run that risk, so they wouldn't escalate it to the point of hammering each other to death. Most likely it will be limited to a naval/aerial battle. There is little material gain in a victory (if they can attain it) of this type for the Saudis, but it would embarrass us and make them look good.


That's why I think it will be to death. They may like to stop at some point but would Iran? Not sure about that. No Iranian, pro or anti government would accept defeat in this particular war. Government would face public rage and fury at home if they suffice to a limited battle and a resulted loss for Iran.


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## AmirPatriot

Arminkh said:


> They may like to stop at some point but would Iran?



Of course it would. We cannot overthrow the Saudi regime with military force. We couldn't even do that to Saddam. Continuing a war would only damage Iran as wars are inherently bad for the development of a country.



Arminkh said:


> Government would face public rage and fury at home if they suffice to a limited battle and a resulted loss for Iran.



That is why Iran wouldn't lose. At worst, it would be a stalemate. We would try to "get our own back" with reciprocal action. 

Any effort to end the war with a truce/ceasefire should entail pressuring the enemy into realising they cannot satisfy their _casus belli. _Defeating an enemy's attempt to do this has already embarrassed them enough. If this is not enough, the embarrassment can be added to with strategic and economic damage that can just *force *them to accept a ceasefire (which would ideally be favourable to Iran, with reparations and various other miscellaneous concessions).

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## skyshadow

استفاده از مخازن الومینیوم تقویت شده بجای مخازن فولادی برای کاهش وزن و افزایش برد موشک

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## skyshadow



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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


>



If the Americans say Iran is responsible, then we should be proud of our contribution to Yemeni people fighting back. This is good news.

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## Hack-Hook

I wonder how they can sow a dinner missile is a finless missile ?
In every picture qiam was a finless missile and borkan a dinner missile

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## skyshadow



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## yavar



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## VEVAK

That board must be made out of Iridium rather than silicon! LOL!


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## yavar

*Iran Gen Hajizadeh: We are at edge missile Tech ایران سردار حاجی زاده: در حوزه موشکی در لبه تکنولوژی*

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## Raghfarm007

Yemeni cruise missile attack on the UAE:


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## Stryker1982

New cruise missile attack? So a total of 2?

How on earth are they getting these Imao..


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## sanel1412

Interesting Article from From Business Insider



*Saudi Arabia has the best military equipment money can buy — but it's still not a threat to Iran*



In the past few years, Saudi Arabia has led an intervention in Yemen's civil war, been the driving force behind a diplomatic crisis between Qatar and its neighbors, and involved itself in the politics of Lebanon.

All of these things appear to have one common objective: to push back against the influence of Iran.

But experts say Saudi Arabia's ambitions are limited by its military, which is considered an ineffective force even though the kingdom is one of the world's largest spenders on defense.

"The fact is, Iran is better at doing this stuff," said Michael Knights, a Lafer fellow at The Washington Institute who specializes in the military and security affairs of Iraq, Iran, and the Persian Gulf.

"There's nobody in the Iranian General Staff that's afraid of Saudi Arabia on the ground," Knights said.

Saudi Arabia's struggles in Yemen — where its years-long conflict with the Houthi rebels has no end in sight — reveals its shortcomings against an adversary like Iran

"What we are really talking about is how they stack up in a proxy war," Knights said. "It's what they are doing in the region nowadays."

* One of the largest spenders on defense *
Saudi Arabia's military faces two main problems. It is too large, making it more susceptible to organizational and quality issues, and its arsenal is designed for a large conventional war rather than the proxy wars of the 21st century.

For all Saudi Arabia's military ineffectiveness, it's hard to blame the kingdom's equipment. Last year, Saudi Arabia was the fourth-largest spender on defense products in the world, just behind Russia.

According to IHS Jane's, a British publishing company specializing in military, aerospace, and transportation topics, Saudi Arabia was the world's largest importer of weapons in 2014.

Data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute shows that Saudi Arabia was the second-largest importer of weapons in both 2015 and 2016. Arms imports into the kingdom have increased by over 200% since 2012, according to the institute.

The weaponry being bought is not low quality, either. The majority of Saudi Arabia's military hardware is bought from US companies. In fact, 13% of all US arms exports in 2016 were headed into the kingdom. Companies from the UK and Spain were the second- and third-largest sellers.

The Royal Saudi Air Force arsenal includes Eurofighter Typhoons, perhaps the most advanced fighter jet fielded by European militaries, and American F-15 Eagles, the undisputed king of the skies for three decades and still formidable. The Saudis even have their own model of the Eagle — the F-15SA (Saudi Advanced), which just started being delivered this year.

The Royal Saudi Land Forces, the Saudi army, have everything from M1A2 Abrams tanks and M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles to AH-64D Apache Longbow and UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters.

Virtually every vessel in the Royal Saudi Navy was built in American shipyards, specifically for Saudi Arabia. Its newest frigates, the Al Riyadh class, are modified versions of France's La Fayette-class frigate.

Saudi Arabia is one of the best-equipped nations in the world. Yet the Saudi military does not strike fear into the hearts of its adversaries, or would-be foes.

* The proxy war in Yemen *
Evidence of the Saudi military's shortcomings can be seen just south of the Saudi border in Yemen.

Almost three years after Saudi Arabia, supported by other Gulf and Arab states, launched a military intervention to support Yemen's ousted president, Abdrabbuh Mansur Hadi, Iran-backed Houthi rebels are still active and continue to hold Yemen's largest city and capital, Sana'a.

Additionally, the Houthis have proved capable of launching high-profile attacks against the Saudis. Those include multiple cross-border raids into Saudi Arabia, successful attacks on Emirati and Saudi navy ships, and the launching of ballistic missiles into the heartland of the kingdom.

In a more recent embarrassment, a report from The New York Times suggested that a ballistic missile fired by the Houthis that exploded at an airport in the Saudi capital of Riyadh was actually not shot down as previously claimed by the Saudi military.

* Why there has been no victory in Yemen *
The Saudis have had a hard task in Yemen. They have to operate in the Houthi heartland against a well-trained, well-funded, and well-supplied fighting force.

Saudi Arabia, however, has not deployed significant land forces into Yemen that would be required to win on the battlefield.

"We don't know if the Saudi military is able to have a significant impact on the Yemen war, because we've only seen the deployment of Saudi airpower," Knights told Business Insider.

"Generally, an airpower-only campaign is not going to have a great impact — particularly in this type of complex terrain with an enemy who is very adept at hiding from airpower and often looks like civilians," he said.

Knights estimates that 10,000 to 20,000 troops would be required to have the desired affect. Yet the Saudi military has not deployed its ground forces — most likely because the Saudi leadership knows that, as Knights says, they "suffer from significant weaknesses."

These weaknesses include a lack of logistical equipment and experience needed to carry out such a campaign.

"They have no experience in an expeditionary operation," he said, noting that the Desert Storm campaign against Iraq — which Saudi Arabia did contribute to — was largely an American effort.

Additionally, Saudi ground forces as a whole are not trained well enough to where they would be able to perform successfully in large-scale operations. As such, a Saudi ground force in Yemen may cause more harm than good.

Bilal Saab, the senior fellow and director of the Defense and Security Program at the Middle East Institute, told Business Insider that Saudi Arabia understood the potential harm of its ground forces. In an email, Saab said Saudi Arabia would not deploy large contingents of ground forces "because their casualties would be severe and they most probably would cause tremendous collateral damage in Yemen."

* What can be done *
In Knights' view, Saudi Arabia needs to downsize its military, focus on quality recruitment and training, and make units that are capable of fighting alongside and training local allies.

Today, local militias and tribal groups form the majority of the ground force battling the Houthis, and few if any Saudi soldiers assist them — save for a few special forces units.

"As a result," Knights says, "there is no credible military pressure on the Houthis."

The proxy battle in Yemen is just one example of Iran's growing influence across the Middle East. Hezbollah, for instance, is better armed and organized than Lebanon’s official military. Hamas, engaged in ongoing conflict with Israel, is also publicly backed by Iran and a number of militias in Iraq's Popular Mobilization Units receive training, funding, and equipment from their neighboring country.

Saudi Arabia's arsenal, though impressive, also needs to be built up with its desired applications in mind. For now, those seem to be proxy wars against an enemy that is rarely in uniform, as opposed to one fought against a conventional army from the Cold War era.

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## AmirPatriot

Stryker1982 said:


> New cruise missile attack? So a total of 2?
> 
> How on earth are they getting these Imao..


No, its the same one from a few weeks ago.

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## raptor22

@AmirPatriot @VEVAK @Arminkh 
Saudis have their own plan to attack Iran:

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## AmirPatriot

raptor22 said:


> @AmirPatriot @VEVAK @Arminkh
> Saudis have their own plan to attack Iran:



Watched this yesterday, this is new and unprecedented levels of retard

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## Bahram Esfandiari

raptor22 said:


> @AmirPatriot @VEVAK @Arminkh
> Saudis have their own plan to attack Iran:


I think that the Islamic Republic must surrender immediately to the Magic Kingdom before they make another CG fantasy video!

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> Watched this yesterday, this is new and unprecedented levels of retard


Putting military aspects of the clip aside which indeed need months of analyze by military experts the most interesting part is idk how they think Iranians would bear presence of any foreign troops esp Saudis in their own country esp in streets of Tehran in a way that would welcome them. As I noticed even Americans as super power have mentioned Iranian unity in hour of war in their analyzes as a major obstacle for any foreign troops intending to wage war against Iran.

The full clip:





I didn't know we have F22

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## AmirPatriot

raptor22 said:


> Putting military aspects of the clip aside which indeed need months of analyze by military experts the most interesting part is idk how they think Iranians would bear presence of any foreign troops esp Saudis in their own country esp in streets of Tehran in a way that would welcome them. As I noticed even Americans as super power have mentioned Iranian unity in hour of war in their analyzes as a major obstacle for any foreign troops intending to wage war against Iran.
> 
> The full clip:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know we have F22

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> View attachment 443249


probably wrong it's got 1200000 kms range ..

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## VEVAK

raptor22 said:


> @AmirPatriot @VEVAK @Arminkh
> Saudis have their own plan to attack Iran:



LOL!!!!!!! O man this cracked me up!!!! HOW DELUSIONAL DO THEY HAVE TO BE???? 

Those morons haven't even been able to invade Yemen!!!!!!!!!!!! And how delusional do you have to be to think that your going to get a warm welcome in Iran?

They've been bombing their poorest neighbor for over 2 years and they still can get them to submit or even stop them from firing missiles at them!

No wonder the Saudi Crown prince has been named "The man of the year" for being "The moron of the year"!

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## Hack-Hook

I still baffled why Iranian having an airfield full of f-22 and then sending if i'm not wrong su-25 to intercept ksa airplanes ?
and how ksa gonna sink fast attack boats with naval gun ?


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## AmirPatriot

Hack-Hook said:


> I still baffled why Iranian having an airfield full of f-22 and then sending if i'm not wrong su-25 to intercept ksa airplanes ?
> and how ksa gonna sink fast attack boats with naval gun ?



Don't try to apply logic to this shit

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## NADIM.NAZI

raptor22 said:


> @AmirPatriot @VEVAK @Arminkh
> Saudis have their own plan to attack Iran:



Iran should surrender to Saudi before attack because Saudi are great warriors in the bed of prostitute.

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## PeeD

The first Zolfaghar missiles shown in 2016 seemed to have a steel booster casing, that shown yesterday had a filament casing (first known in Iran). It even seems to be not traditional filament like e.g used in Soviet Topol and recent North Korean solid fuel designs but a carbon-fiber reinforced / high-temperature-polymer matrix casing.

The question is now whether this is a upgraded version, which would be a heavy change or whether they relaxed the polymer matrix coverage/tolerance for cost improvement reasons.
They may have avoided to show the composite casing intentionally and just did it after North Korea revealed their filament casing capability.

If it is really a carbon polymer composite casing, they have just revealed that their capability is beyond ordinary filament casing technology, the coarse weaving and thick black fiber would hint into that direction.

Whatever, congratulations for entering the composite casing club.

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## Stryker1982

So if the new missiles used "carbon-fiber reinforced / high-temperature-polymer matrix" casing, what would that mean in terms of costs and weight. I'm assuming using this material instead would allow for greater range as the missile is lighter, but maybe not at a cheap price?


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## scimitar19

maybe even increased heat shielding resistance towards high energy directed beam weapons such as lasers, but one thing is still unanswered, EMP based directed beam weapons is still for me an effective way to bring down missiles. Look at the project champ on web, it is very interesting weapon platform for me even better than lasers


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## Stryker1982

scimitar19 said:


> maybe even increased heat shielding resistance towards high energy directed beam weapons such as lasers, but one thing is still unanswered, EMP based directed beam weapons is still for me an effective way to bring down missiles. Look at the project champ on web, it is very interesting weapon platform for me even better than lasers




This is something Iran has to focus on for the future of warfare as our enemies weapon systems begin to gain incredible speeds, we may no long be able to rely on missiles for interception.

One thing I'm curious about regarding heat shielding, if North Koreans are able to reach ICBM tech, it surely indicates some big advancements in protecting the re-entry vehicle structurally. I would be very surprised if aerospace forces have not approached NK regarding their heat shielding technology for their lofted trajectory tests.


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> I still baffled why Iranian having an airfield full of f-22 and then sending if i'm not wrong su-25 to intercept ksa airplanes ?
> and how ksa gonna sink fast attack boats with naval gun ?




Apparently Iran rather than using it's Sub's, FAC, Frigates, Missiles boats, Torpedo Boats, UAV's, UCAV's, Helo's, fighters & Costal Anti ship missiles stationed off Iranian Islands...... 
We the Iranians have a "MASTER PLAN" to start a war by using speed boats armed with rockets to go after a Saudi cargo ship! Now to what end? who knows? 
But that's our master plan! Because that's a well known proven tactic! Starting a war by using speed boats against cargo ships is how wars are won!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL! 

For Iranian Generals this has always been what a Saudi false flag operation against Iran would look like if the Saudi Crown prince aka the MORON of the Year wanted to start a war with Iran 
​But If there is war it would be directly because of Rohani Administrations refusal to properly fund the military & Iranian Media's inability to properly report facts! Because clearly not enough people are informed and angry about the Rohani administration inability to properly fund the military!

Either Iran is hiding it's true defense spending or there is something truly rotten in the Rohani administration!

I can understand trying to play nice with the west when someone like Obama was in power but to refuse to properly fund the military even after Donald Trump was elected and even after the absurd propaganda war the U.S. has started against Iran is beyond absurd! Add to that Saudi Arabia's continued reckless defense spending & continued aggressive posture! I don't understand why military officials in the Artesh and IRGC aren't speaking up!

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## scimitar19

for me has potential to be highly effective given an extended effective range that is still unknown, especially countering low altitude cruise missiles, drones, fighter jets. they will fall off the skies like dead birds without firing a single missile. frying their electronics and radars will give them falling bricks instead smartly guided bombs and planes. not a new idea, russians have been working on it for some time and tested it on USS Donald Cook, entire AEGIS system was shut down


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## Arminkh

raptor22 said:


> @AmirPatriot @VEVAK @Arminkh
> Saudis have their own plan to attack Iran:


What should we do now!!!! They are too strong!

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> The first Zolfaghar missiles shown in 2016 seemed to have a steel booster casing, that shown yesterday had a filament casing (first known in Iran). It even seems to be not traditional filament like e.g used in Soviet Topol and recent North Korean solid fuel designs but a carbon-fiber reinforced / high-temperature-polymer matrix casing.
> 
> The question is now whether this is a upgraded version, which would be a heavy change or whether they relaxed the polymer matrix coverage/tolerance for cost improvement reasons.
> They may have avoided to show the composite casing intentionally and just did it after North Korea revealed their filament casing capability.
> 
> If it is really a carbon polymer composite casing, they have just revealed that their capability is beyond ordinary filament casing technology, the coarse weaving and thick black fiber would hint into that direction.
> 
> Whatever, congratulations for entering the composite casing club.



Thanks for the analysis @PeeD. I actually meant to ask you something about the recent images of the Zolfaqar at some sort of public event.

Do you have any idea what those protrusions near the nose, labelled "X10B" and "X10C" are? Initially I thought they might be some sort of gas steering system but they are not symmetrical on the whole missile.







Another thing. Wouldn't the somewhat rough surface of the missile (because it is made of composite materials) increase drag?

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> Thanks for the analysis @PeeD. I actually meant to ask you something about the recent images of the Zolfaqar at some sort of public event.
> 
> Do you have any idea what those protrusions near the nose, labelled "X10B" and "X10C" are? Initially I thought they might be some sort of gas steering system but they are not symmetrical on the whole missile.
> 
> View attachment 443465
> 
> 
> Another thing. Wouldn't the somewhat rough surface of the missile (because it is made of composite materials) increase drag?


Does it means we could see heavier mobile missiles? like an mobile ICBM? I think in comparison to steel booster casing it's much more lighter..


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## PeeD

@AmirPatriot 

Those unique elements are also found in earlier Fateh generations. I guess they are part of a missile rotational axis alignment system but they could also be antennas with dielectric cover for missile up and down-link.

Composite casing of course reduces booster dead weight by a large degree and can cause huge benefits in range and payload compared to normal steel casings. Aramid/kevlar is good solution (the current state of the art) but carbon fiber a better one for composite casings. Hence I have my doubts with my theory whether Iran has moved beyond state of the art.
The increased surface roughness has very negligible negative aerodynamic impact.

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## raptor22

A full view:

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> Thanks for the analysis @PeeD. I actually meant to ask you something about the recent images of the Zolfaqar at some sort of public event.
> 
> Do you have any idea what those protrusions near the nose, labelled "X10B" and "X10C" are? Initially I thought they might be some sort of gas steering system but they are not symmetrical on the whole missile.
> 
> View attachment 443465
> 
> 
> Another thing. Wouldn't the somewhat rough surface of the missile (because it is made of composite materials) increase drag?




This is a mockup! NOT a real missile! You guys arguing over NOTHING! It's not even a good mockup!



raptor22 said:


> A full view:
> 
> View attachment 443595



A real bad mockup!!!!!!!!!!!



Arminkh said:


> What should we do now!!!! They are too strong!



Install a large magnetron gun on the tip of a UAV!






It's the same thing just on a larger scale with more advanced directed wave methodology used! It's NOTHING special! It just takes a few years of lab work to find a better method to direct the waves.... 

The ability to direct light, sound & frequency in a straight line is nothing NEW countries like Iran have been aware of it for some time now

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## PeeD

Modelling filamenent surface texture has absolutely no purpose on a mock-up. No need for such detail.

It looks like a rejected production item with some sections like the rv being a possible mock-up.
If it is a mock-up then they did the extra detail for misinformation purpose --> Zolfaghar has composite casing.

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## skyshadow



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## AmirPatriot

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 443657
> View attachment 443658
> View attachment 443659
> View attachment 443660
> View attachment 443661


Yep, that's a Qiam ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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## Stryker1982

AmirPatriot said:


> Yep, that's a Qiam ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


lel


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## AmirPatriot

Stryker1982 said:


> lel



I don't even know what our Yemen strategy is anymore.

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## Stryker1982

AmirPatriot said:


> I don't even know what our Yemen strategy is anymore.



Cause enough mayhem and fear for Saudi Arabia and then watch as it inevitably blows back in our face when everyone gets angry that we transferred Qiams or Qiam parts into yemen. 

Though, it is good to know how much they struggle with a simple missile like Qiam.


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## AmirPatriot

Stryker1982 said:


> then watch as it inevitably blows back in our face when everyone gets angry that we transferred Qiams or Qiam parts into yemen.


I think this is what everyone is worried about.

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## Stryker1982

AmirPatriot said:


> I think this is what everyone is worried about.



Its pretty serious actually because we are proliferating long range BM's. If we were sending TOWs or just guns and some heavy infantry equipment, it really would not be a big deal. Some people would just bark and that would be the end of it. 

But a BM is a whole other situation. I don't think even the Soviets transferred BM's to non-state groups. I'm not worried about war, but I think sepah is fucking Rouhani gov. over because the Euro's are gonna turn against us because of this.

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> Its pretty serious actually because we are proliferating long range BM's. If we were sending TOWs or just guns and some heavy infantry equipment, it really would not be a big deal. Some people would just bark and that would be the end of it.
> 
> But a BM is a whole other situation. I don't think even the Soviets transferred BM's to non-state groups. I'm not worried about war, but I think sepah is fucking Rouhani gov. over because the Euro's are gonna turn against us because of this.



It definitely is a step up in Iranian actions across the Middle East. To what exact end I can't say but the Saudis are getting hammered with ballistic missiles pretty regularly now.

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## skyshadow

AmirPatriot said:


> Yep, that's a Qiam ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


but it look so small in yemen and the missile warhead look different too.



AmirPatriot said:


> I don't even know what our Yemen strategy is anymore.




testing iranian missiles against powerful missile defense systems. This will certainly provide useful information to scientists in Iran's missile field, and in further will enhance Iran's new generation missiles. smart move


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## skyshadow

مثل اینکه فقط یک موشک پیتریت شلیک شده . میگن اول صدای انفجاز بزرگ شنیده که احتمالا انفجار کلاهک بوده و بعد صدای انفجار کوچیک تر که احتمالا انفجار موشک پیتریت بوده. یعنی یمنی ها خودشون عمدا کلاهک قیام رو در اسمان منفجر کردن ? چون دود حاصل از انفجار کلاهک فاصلش تا زمین خییییلی کمه من فکر میکردم توی فاصله بالاتر فقط میتونه مورد اصابت قرار بگیره کلاهک یک موشک


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## mohsen

AmirPatriot said:


> Yep, that's a Qiam ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Not Qiam, but Iranian tech.
With love from Iran!



AmirPatriot said:


> I don't even know what our Yemen strategy is anymore.


It's very simple.
Force should be answered by force.
It's just the BEGINNING.

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## yavar

Yemeni resistance force fire Burkan-2H ballistic missile at Saudi Riyadh 19-12-2017 مقاومت یمن

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> I don't even know what our Yemen strategy is anymore.


As it seems Iran has got one strategy in entire wast Asia, none of our rivals should never get out of a military conflict as victorious, military option must be burnt must be seen as a long, painful and stupid way . Iran takes "Yemen war" as the American war which means Saudis are fighting in the line of the American interests What do you think would happen if Saudis win the battle in Yemen? First they become more confident, secondly they would see military option workable which could be repeated in other areas. The only reason for Iran to provide Houthis with cruise missiles, BM and ... might be this.

By the way if it's Qiam then what about the range? how much you could reduced the warhead to increase the range about 100 miles?166 kms?
Here is the location of the missile fired:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/943319844140863488
And this is the distance btw this location and Riyadh:


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## eagle2007

Raptor22,

Based on what we know/suspect of the Qiam-1's origins with the Hwasong-6 and Shahab-2, IMHO extending the Qiam-1's range to the 900-1000km range seen in the Burkan-2H is quite feasible. 

When the North Koreans designed the Hwasong-6 (or got the specs from Soviet design bureaus, depending on who you ask), they managed to nearly double the range of the missile by reducing it warhead by 23% (1000kg -> 770kg) and increasing the size of the fuel tanks by ~1/2 a meter or so. This contracts greatly with Iraqi efforts to achieve the same thing (see Al Hussein missile). 

When the Qiam-1 was designed, the warhead was clearly reduced further, evident by the new warhead appearance. How much isn't 100% certain but I think a safe bet puts it in the 500-600kg range. This reduction, plus the remove of the fixed fins (decreasing drag) allowed its range to be increased to 800km. 

So for the Houthis (whether via imported missiles or imported engineers) to design the Burkan-2H to reach a 12.5-25% increase in range, another warhead reduction could be the solution. How much of a reduction, hard to guess.

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## PeeD

The Qiam-1 based Burkan-2H is capable of that range due to complex modifications, "rocket science modifications" as I would call it.

Iraqi SCUD modifications were like infant games compared to that. Reason is the following:

Whether the aluminium and to 770kg reduced warhead of the "SCUD-C" were a Soviet invention or a North Korean one, this was the limit of what was easily possible. The step after that to go beyond 500km is way more difficult due to center of gravity and center of pressure problems.

A SCUD-B or -C need large aft fins for stabilization during re-entry. Ghadr, Qiam and Burkan-2H don't need them for that purpose, they just need them for stabilization against cross winds during ascent and most importantly as counter weight.
To get rid of them and save the weight for range and payload, you need a complex sectional tank arrangement in order to keep the top heavier than the fin-less aft with the propellant pushed under acceleration loads and the heavy engine.
That's why the Qiam/Burkan-2H design have as many as 9 fuel and oxidizer interfaces and at least 3 separate tanks. The system design must achieve the objective to eject the RV on the right trajectory before losing its CoG stability. Otherwise you would get a instabile reentry like with Iraqi long range SCUDs which is not based on "rocket science full calculated flight trajectory" but "get that thing somewhere there, if possible exploding on impact, if it survives".

Now what is necessary to build a Burkan-2H? The science in form of the design, the capability of tank section welding modifications,
- an new, advanced flight control system with IMU that provides continuous flight corrections to a
--> TVC system that makes use of advanced servo motors able to cope with the rapid, accurate flight corrections (caused by cross-winds),
+ several more items... and of course some North Korean made SCUD-Cs as basis.

960km should be really at the edge of what one can get out of a SCUD design with SCUD dimensions, same fuel and the original SCUD motor. A beautiful masterpiece for this specific case and its well possible that the warhead is 500kg+.
Transferring a design or loosing the Qiam blueprints to Houthi hackers... its only a "crime" of Iran exports whole physical weapon systems.

@AmirPatriot 

I just looked at some photos; those X10C etc. objects are a least partially cable connection ports to the missile guidance system. But it does not explain why there are 4 and more of them on them.

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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> I think this is what everyone is worried about.





BlueInGreen2 said:


> It definitely is a step up in Iranian actions across the Middle East. To what exact end I can't say but the Saudis are getting hammered with ballistic missiles pretty regularly now.





raptor22 said:


> As it seems Iran has got one strategy in entire wast Asia, none of our rivals should never get out of a military conflict as victorious, military option must be burnt must be seen as a long, painful and stupid way . Iran takes "Yemen war" as the American war which means Saudis are fighting in the line of the American interests What do you think would happen if Saudis win the battle in Yemen? First they become more confident, secondly they would see military option workable which could be repeated in other areas. The only reason for Iran to provide Houthis with cruise missiles, BM and ... might be this.
> 
> By the way if it's Qiam then what about the range? how much you could reduced the warhead to increase the range about 100 miles?166 kms?
> Here is the location of the missile fired:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/943319844140863488
> And this is the distance btw this location and Riyadh:
> View attachment 443772




Why are you guy's so ready to believe that these missiles are Iranian??? 

Yemen had Scud-C with +600km range prior to the conflict so to further increase range they could reduce payload.....

If Iran was transferring Iranian made cruise missiles & BM to Yamen with Iranian markings on them why would they stop there? 

There are Saudi Military Bases, Oil facilities, Ports, Depots,... in Jazan that's within ~80km of northern Yemen that have hardly been hit!

Firing a single cruise missile at UAE & less than a had full of BM at the Saudi Capital with Iranian markings on them isn't a sound military tactic by Iran because it just helps to create propaganda against Iran with little damage to the Saudi's

If U.S., Saudi Arabia & Israel wanted to create propaganda against Iran to take on & take out Iran's Ballistic Missile program politically without starting a war the best way for them to go at it is to 1st create propaganda then rally a bunch of countries to put sanctions on Iran & do the same thing they did with Iran's Nuclear Program with Iran's Ballistic Missile program!

And since Iran hasn't spent the past 30 years upgrading it's Air Force any deal that restricts Iran's ballistic missile program equals to a key to attack and invade Iran!
Saddam agreed to restrictions & UN inspection of it's BM program and rather than peace it lead to an invasion!
Qaddafi in Libya agreed to had over it's WMD's and BM and rather than peace Libya was bombed and Qaddafi was taken out! 

As for the IRGC wanting to embarrass the Rohani administration they could easily do that politically at home!
They can go on Iranian TV show the amount of money being spend on acquisitions of regional countries compared to Iran and point out Rohani administration inability to properly manage the economy and fund the military that's putting the countries security at risk, they can show Rohani administrations inability to fund the space program,
They can go on Iranian TV and show how increased defense spending equals to more jobs in almost every sector,....

And to create problem for the Rohani administration on an international scale all they have to do is publicize and conduct more missile tests at home!

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Modelling filamenent surface texture has absolutely no purpose on a mock-up. No need for such detail.
> 
> It looks like a rejected production item with some sections like the rv being a possible mock-up.
> If it is a mock-up then they did the extra detail for misinformation purpose --> Zolfaghar has composite casing.



Don't confuse a pipe with a bad paint job made to look like the Zolfaghar missile with the actual missile!
Even the body is a mockup! a bad one at that!


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## PeeD

RV is a mock-up, warhead of course too.

What the booster is remains open. Certinaily not a industrial pipe.
Either a rejected early production example or a burnt out static test booster that has been subject to heat. This would explain why the fibres are no visible and were not on the unburnt example with intact polymer/resin matrix.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> RV is a mock-up, warhead of course too.
> 
> What the booster is remains open. Certinaily not a industrial pipe.
> Either a rejected early production example or a burnt out static test booster that has been subject to heat. This would explain why the fibres are no visible and were not on the unburnt example with intact polymer/resin matrix.


The lines you see on the body are there specifically to allow long pipes you put on the ground to bend without breaking




IT IS NOT A REAL MISSILE!!! NO PART OF IT IS OF A REAL MISSILE!


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## skyshadow

Ars Technica
*DOD shows components proving Iran provided missiles fired at Saudi Arabia [Updated]*






Sean Gallagher

 12/14/2017 5:24 pm
 Categories:Biz & IT, Policy
View non-AMP version at arstechnica.com
_












In a presentation that echoes assertions by another administration that Iraq was concealing weapons of mass destruction, US officials have created a display of evidence that the Trump administration hopes will trigger further action against Iran. In a hangar at Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling in Washington, DC, today, Department of Defense (DOD) officials accompanied by US United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley put on display debris from what they claim are Iranian-built ballistic missiles and other weapons recovered by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

The presentation comes as the secretary general of the United Nations is scheduled to release a report on Iran's lack of compliance with UN Security Council resolutions. Haley says the report "describes violation after violation of weapons transfers and ballistic missile activity. Aid from Iran’s Revolutionary Guard to dangerous militias and terror groups is increasing... Its ballistic missiles and advanced weapons are turning up in war zones across the region. It's hard to find a conflict or a terrorist group in the Middle East that does not have Iran's fingerprints all over it."




And those fingerprints, according to the display presented for the press today in the hangar, are all over the two ballistic missiles and other weapons. The components all bear marks tying them to manufacturers in Iran. This is proof, according to a DOD report, that Iran is illicitly shipping highly destructive weapons to anti-government forces in Yemen for use against Saudi Arabia and its allies in the Gulf as part of its efforts "to sow instability and promote violence throughout the region."

Haley said that the US government had invited representatives from other nations, including "the entire UN Security Council," to see the evidence on display. "And we are inviting all members of Congress to view it. This evidence is part of what has led the US intelligence community to conclude, unequivocally, that these weapons were supplied by the Iranian regime. The evidence is undeniable. The weapons might as well have had 'Made in Iran' stickers all over it."

The ballistic missile fragments were, according to DOD analysis, pieces of two Iranian Qiam missiles. The first targeted the Yanbu terminal—a major Red Sea oil facility on Saudi Arabia's west coast. It was launched July 24 and was not intercepted by Saudi missile defenses. It caused a major fire near the terminal, though there was little detail given at the time by Saudi Arabia about the damage done. The second, launched on November 5, was aimed at King Khalid International Airport near Riyadh; the Saudi Arabian government claimed to have intercepted the missile with its Patriot missile batteries, but other reports suggest that the Patriot system may have hit the falling booster of the missile after it had separated from the warhead.

Saudi Arabian officials have suggested they may consider the attack on the airport as an "act of war" by Iran. President Donald Trump has blamed Iran for the Riyadh attack, but Mohammad Ali Jafari, the chief of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, disputes the claim.


Video of the November 5 ballistic missile launch by Houthi forces toward Riyadh.
Ansar Allah—the Houthi insurgent group—claimed that the missiles were a domestic version of the Iranian-built Qiam, a variant of the Russian R-17M ("Scud-C") ballistic missile. The Qiam is essentially a Scud-C without control fins. But Defense Department experts displayed components from the missiles with manufacturer stamps that show they were of Iranian origin, as were the other weapons on display.

Iran is one of the few nations with an active missile development program that is not a member of The Hague Code of Conduct Against Missile Proliferation, an export control regime that prohibits the export of ballistic missile systems. (There are 138 member states, including the US.) But that's not uncommon for the region—Israel, Pakistan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia are all non-signatories as well.

However, Iran has been specifically sanctioned by the UN Security Council for its illegal exportation of ballistic missile systems because of its nuclear program. Iran's ballistic missile development program is considered by some Security Council member states (including the US, Japan, and Sweden) to be against the spirit of the Security Council's resolution 2231, which specifically calls out nuclear weapons development to be "destabilizing." Russia and China have largely shrugged off the continued development, arguing that it's not a violation unless the missiles are designed specifically to deliver nuclear warheads. The resolution does not prevent Iran from other missile and space development.

*Suicide drones and robo-boats*
Other evidence presented by the DOD included Iranian uncrewed vehicles designed to act as weapons. One, the Qasef-1 uncrewed air vehicle, is a surveillance drone that "can be used as a one-way attack drone," said Defense Department spokesperson Laura Seal, "diving on targets Kamikaze-style and detonating its warhead upon impact. It is a member of the Ababil UAV family, designed and produced by the Iranian government.”

The other autonomous weapon of Iranian origin presented was the Shark-33 "explosive boat"—or rather, several components of it. The Shark is a high-speed small boat that carries an anti-ship payload.

"There are more than half a dozen pieces of evidence demonstrating that these components are directly traceable to Iran," Seal said. "What makes the Shark 33 so dangerous isn't just that it can explode. It has a guidance system allowing it to track and hit a moving target without an operator on board, so the boat can be deployed to blow up a ship without sending someone on a suicide mission. The computer and sensors serve as that unmanned guidance system for the Shark 33—and they are supplied by Iran."

DOD officials say that the Shark-33 was used to attack a Saudi naval vessel, the frigate HMS al Madinah, off Yemen in February, blowing a six-and-a-half-foot hole in its side and killing two crew members. It had previously been thought that the Houthis had made the attack with an anti-ship missile.

*Update 9:00am EST December 15: *Iran's Foreign Ministry has issued a statement claiming that the evidence was "fabricated" by the US to distract from the fact that the US has been providing weapons to the Saudis.

Listing image by Department of DefenseView article comments







_

نکته جالب توجهی که در این گزارش آمده، این هست که قطعات موشکهای برکان-2 که "نیکی هیلی" با نمایش آنها ادعای قیام بودن نوع آنها را داشته، متعلق به دو حمله موشکی جداگانه یمنی هاست. موضوع جالب اشاره شده در این گزارش، موفقیت هر دوی این حملات موشکی هست.

در این گزارش آمده است که موشک اول مربوط به حمله موشکی علیه پالایشگاه ینبع در 24 جولای هست و ذکر شده که علی رغم ادعای سعودی ها مبنی بر انهدام این موشک، آتش سوزی گسترده‌ای در نزدیکی یکی از ترمینالهای این پالایشگاه رخ داده و این موضوع میتواند نشانه‌ای مبنی بر موفقیت حمله موشکی به این پالایشگاه باشد.

دومین حمله نیز مربوط به حمله موشکی به فرودگاه ریاض در 5 نوامبر هست که در این حمله نیز سامانه پاتریوت با شلیک 5 تیر موشک به سمت این موشک، بدنه موشک را هدف قرار داده ولی سرجنگی موشک به محوطه فرودگاه اصابت کرده است.


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## drmeson

Guys,

What was the altitude and distance (from target) of interception by Saudi ABM's ? Anyone knows that ?


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## AmirPatriot

drmeson said:


> Guys,
> 
> What was the altitude and distance (from target) of interception by Saudi ABM's ? Anyone knows that ?


I can't tell you precise figures but the failed interception happened when the missile had gone over the Patriot battery, so a little bit behind it, which I understand is about 10-15 miles away from the airport. The PAC-2 isn't a specialised missile defence interceptor so the interception altitude would be relatively low. Something like 20 km.


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## skyshadow



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## drmeson

AmirPatriot said:


> I can't tell you precise figures but the failed interception happened when the missile had gone over the Patriot battery, so a little bit behind it, which I understand is about 10-15 miles away from the airport. The PAC-2 isn't a specialised missile defence interceptor so the interception altitude would be relatively low. Something like 20 km.



Thanks 

Do you know any other Saudi BM interception lower than 40,000 feet while still being within the 10 km radius of the supposed target?


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## mohsen

Know the reformist traitors better, demanding to withdraw from missile program too:

 
فروشندگان را بهتر بشناسیم
*وکیل مدافع شیطان!/ چگونه از حق اروپا برای دخالت در امور داخلی ایران، دفاع کنیم؟ روزنامه شرق: باید برنامه موشکی را محدود کنیم تا اروپا، ترامپ را آرام کند*
_چقدر ساده‌انگارانه‌است که فرض کنیم نگرانی اروپا از برنامه دفاع موشکی ایران بخاطر تبلیغ برد موشکی است و ساده‌لوحانه‌تر این‌که تصور کنیم کشورهای اروپایی که برای یک برنامه هسته‌ای صلح آمیز تحت نظارت آژانس ایران شش قطعنامه صادر کردند و سرآخر همین حق را هم از ایران محروم کردند و دانشمندان ایرانی را بیکار! این‌ها بیایند و نیروی هوایی ایران را بازسازی کنند! آن‌هم به چه بهایی؟_







*گروه سیاسی‌-رجانیوز: *در روزگاری که منورالفکران و رسانه‌‌های روشنفکر برای توافق ذلت‌باری که « فروشنده» دستاورد دانشمندان جوان ایرانی است، سوت و کف کشیده و هلهله می‌کنند، از رقابت تنگاتنگ برای حراج دستاوردهای کشور نباید تعجب کنیم. ابتدا هسته‌ای، سپس هم موشکی! از حوزه‌ای به حوزه‌ای دیگر

به گزارش رجانیوز از سرمقاله «حافظ شخصیت نظام آمریکا و فرانسه» احمد نقیب‌زاده در روزنامه آرمان چندی بیشتر نمی‌گذرد که امروز روزنامه شرق از پدیده دیگری رونمایی کرد! سید علی خرم فردی که خود را استاد حقوق بین‌الملل می‌نامد در یادداشتی تحت عنوان « اعتماد سازی موشکی برای اروپا » بی‌پرده از مسئله‌ای سخن گفته که دولت‌مردان تا حدی از بیان صریح آن طفره می‌رفتند. مذاکرات موشکی! 

این همه قرابت با امنیت ملی آمریکا و فرانسه عادی به نظر نمی‌رسد/آیا ترامپ و ماکرون با اسم مستعار در روزنامه آرمان سرمقاله می‌نویسند؟!

استدلال‌های مدنظر استاد حقوق بین‌الملل را اگر به خود اروپایی‌ها و آمریکایی‌ها هم نشان بدهید باورشان نخواهد شد که موفق به پرورش چنین طرفدار دوآتیشه‌ای در داخل مرزهای جمهوری اسلامی‌ای شده‌اند که در عمر چهاردهه‌ای خود، آن‌ها را از کل منطقه غرب آسیا اخراج کرده‌ است! 

و وی مدعی می‌شود که اروپا از توسعه برنامه صنعت موشکی ایران احساس خطر می‌کند چرا که اولاً ایران برد موشک‌هایش را تبلیغ می‌کند و ثانیاً کشورهای دیگر را تهدید می‌کنند! نباید بگذاریم که خدای نکرده اروپایی‌ها ناراحت شوند و به سمت ترامپ بروند! راه حل مذاکرات موشکی است! چگونه؟ بسیار لذیذ، خوش و خرم و طی مذاکره‌ای اروپایی‌ها باید تعهد بدهند که در عوض محدودیت‌های موشکی، نیروی هوایی ایران را مجهز کنند. این فرصت گرانبهایی است تا هم نیروی هوایی ایران بازسازی می‌شود و هم اروپا برای مهار ترامپ در کنار ایران باشند!

مقدماتی صددر صد غلط و نتیجه که دیگر جای خود دارد! انگار نه انگار که قدرت‌نمایی موشکی ایران تنها در پاسخ به تهدیداتی رژیم صهیونیستی و آمریکا بود آن‌هم زمانی که رسماً اعلام می‌کردند با بمب‌های سنگر شکن خود قرار است تاسیسات هسته‌ای ایران را نابود کنند. و چقدر ساده‌انگارانه‌است که فرض کنیم نگرانی اروپا از برنامه دفاع موشکی ایران بخاطر تبلیغ برد موشکی است و ساده‌لوحانه‌تر این‌که تصور کنیم کشورهای اروپایی که برای یک برنامه صلح آمیز هسته‌ای تحت نظارت آژانس شش قطعنامه صادر کرده و سرآخر هم طی توافقی ایران را از حق طبیعی خود محروم کردند و دانشمندان جوان ایرانی را بیکار! این‌ها بیایند و نیروی هوایی ایران را بازسازی کنند! آن‌هم به چه بهایی؟ در ازای این‌که پس از احمدی روشن حاضر به فروش دستاوردهای تهرانی مقدم شویم! 


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بر این باور نیستیم که این یادداشت حتی به لحاظ علم روابط و حقوق بین‌الملل هم ارزش پاسخ‌گویی داشته باشد! وگرنه حتی دانشجویان ترم یک علوم سیاسی هم می‌دانند که امنیت کالای قابل داد و ستدی نیست؛ اما سوال اصلی از شورای عالی امنیت ملی است که چگونه می‌تواند دربرابر انتشار مطالب این چنینی سکوت کند در حالی که رگ گردنش در برابر انقلابی‌گری کیهان باد می‌کند و حکم به توقیف دو روزه آن می‌دهد! 

و باز هم باید تاکید کرد که این یادداشت در داخل ایران و توسط فردی نوشته شده که خود را استاد حقوق بین‌الملل می‌خواند!

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## Aramagedon

mohsen said:


> Know the reformist traitors better, demanding to withdraw from missile program too:
> 
> 
> فروشندگان را بهتر بشناسیم
> *وکیل مدافع شیطان!/ چگونه از حق اروپا برای دخالت در امور داخلی ایران، دفاع کنیم؟ روزنامه شرق: باید برنامه موشکی را محدود کنیم تا اروپا، ترامپ را آرام کند*
> _چقدر ساده‌انگارانه‌است که فرض کنیم نگرانی اروپا از برنامه دفاع موشکی ایران بخاطر تبلیغ برد موشکی است و ساده‌لوحانه‌تر این‌که تصور کنیم کشورهای اروپایی که برای یک برنامه هسته‌ای صلح آمیز تحت نظارت آژانس ایران شش قطعنامه صادر کردند و سرآخر همین حق را هم از ایران محروم کردند و دانشمندان ایرانی را بیکار! این‌ها بیایند و نیروی هوایی ایران را بازسازی کنند! آن‌هم به چه بهایی؟_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *گروه سیاسی‌-رجانیوز: *در روزگاری که منورالفکران و رسانه‌‌های روشنفکر برای توافق ذلت‌باری که « فروشنده» دستاورد دانشمندان جوان ایرانی است، سوت و کف کشیده و هلهله می‌کنند، از رقابت تنگاتنگ برای حراج دستاوردهای کشور نباید تعجب کنیم. ابتدا هسته‌ای، سپس هم موشکی! از حوزه‌ای به حوزه‌ای دیگر
> 
> به گزارش رجانیوز از سرمقاله «حافظ شخصیت نظام آمریکا و فرانسه» احمد نقیب‌زاده در روزنامه آرمان چندی بیشتر نمی‌گذرد که امروز روزنامه شرق از پدیده دیگری رونمایی کرد! سید علی خرم فردی که خود را استاد حقوق بین‌الملل می‌نامد در یادداشتی تحت عنوان « اعتماد سازی موشکی برای اروپا » بی‌پرده از مسئله‌ای سخن گفته که دولت‌مردان تا حدی از بیان صریح آن طفره می‌رفتند. مذاکرات موشکی!
> 
> این همه قرابت با امنیت ملی آمریکا و فرانسه عادی به نظر نمی‌رسد/آیا ترامپ و ماکرون با اسم مستعار در روزنامه آرمان سرمقاله می‌نویسند؟!
> 
> استدلال‌های مدنظر استاد حقوق بین‌الملل را اگر به خود اروپایی‌ها و آمریکایی‌ها هم نشان بدهید باورشان نخواهد شد که موفق به پرورش چنین طرفدار دوآتیشه‌ای در داخل مرزهای جمهوری اسلامی‌ای شده‌اند که در عمر چهاردهه‌ای خود، آن‌ها را از کل منطقه غرب آسیا اخراج کرده‌ است!
> 
> و وی مدعی می‌شود که اروپا از توسعه برنامه صنعت موشکی ایران احساس خطر می‌کند چرا که اولاً ایران برد موشک‌هایش را تبلیغ می‌کند و ثانیاً کشورهای دیگر را تهدید می‌کنند! نباید بگذاریم که خدای نکرده اروپایی‌ها ناراحت شوند و به سمت ترامپ بروند! راه حل مذاکرات موشکی است! چگونه؟ بسیار لذیذ، خوش و خرم و طی مذاکره‌ای اروپایی‌ها باید تعهد بدهند که در عوض محدودیت‌های موشکی، نیروی هوایی ایران را مجهز کنند. این فرصت گرانبهایی است تا هم نیروی هوایی ایران بازسازی می‌شود و هم اروپا برای مهار ترامپ در کنار ایران باشند!
> 
> مقدماتی صددر صد غلط و نتیجه که دیگر جای خود دارد! انگار نه انگار که قدرت‌نمایی موشکی ایران تنها در پاسخ به تهدیداتی رژیم صهیونیستی و آمریکا بود آن‌هم زمانی که رسماً اعلام می‌کردند با بمب‌های سنگر شکن خود قرار است تاسیسات هسته‌ای ایران را نابود کنند. و چقدر ساده‌انگارانه‌است که فرض کنیم نگرانی اروپا از برنامه دفاع موشکی ایران بخاطر تبلیغ برد موشکی است و ساده‌لوحانه‌تر این‌که تصور کنیم کشورهای اروپایی که برای یک برنامه صلح آمیز هسته‌ای تحت نظارت آژانس شش قطعنامه صادر کرده و سرآخر هم طی توافقی ایران را از حق طبیعی خود محروم کردند و دانشمندان جوان ایرانی را بیکار! این‌ها بیایند و نیروی هوایی ایران را بازسازی کنند! آن‌هم به چه بهایی؟ در ازای این‌که پس از احمدی روشن حاضر به فروش دستاوردهای تهرانی مقدم شویم!
> 
> 
> Video Player
> دانلود فیلم
> 
> 
> بر این باور نیستیم که این یادداشت حتی به لحاظ علم روابط و حقوق بین‌الملل هم ارزش پاسخ‌گویی داشته باشد! وگرنه حتی دانشجویان ترم یک علوم سیاسی هم می‌دانند که امنیت کالای قابل داد و ستدی نیست؛ اما سوال اصلی از شورای عالی امنیت ملی است که چگونه می‌تواند دربرابر انتشار مطالب این چنینی سکوت کند در حالی که رگ گردنش در برابر انقلابی‌گری کیهان باد می‌کند و حکم به توقیف دو روزه آن می‌دهد!
> 
> و باز هم باید تاکید کرد که این یادداشت در داخل ایران و توسط فردی نوشته شده که خود را استاد حقوق بین‌الملل می‌خواند!


اینا دیگه روی قاجارا رو سفید کردن

خدا شر این ریفرم ها رو از رو زمین کم کنه

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## Stryker1982

mohsen said:


> Know the reformist traitors better, demanding to withdraw from missile program too:
> 
> 
> فروشندگان را بهتر بشناسیم
> *وکیل مدافع شیطان!/ چگونه از حق اروپا برای دخالت در امور داخلی ایران، دفاع کنیم؟ روزنامه شرق: باید برنامه موشکی را محدود کنیم تا اروپا، ترامپ را آرام کند*
> _چقدر ساده‌انگارانه‌است که فرض کنیم نگرانی اروپا از برنامه دفاع موشکی ایران بخاطر تبلیغ برد موشکی است و ساده‌لوحانه‌تر این‌که تصور کنیم کشورهای اروپایی که برای یک برنامه هسته‌ای صلح آمیز تحت نظارت آژانس ایران شش قطعنامه صادر کردند و سرآخر همین حق را هم از ایران محروم کردند و دانشمندان ایرانی را بیکار! این‌ها بیایند و نیروی هوایی ایران را بازسازی کنند! آن‌هم به چه بهایی؟_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *گروه سیاسی‌-رجانیوز: *در روزگاری که منورالفکران و رسانه‌‌های روشنفکر برای توافق ذلت‌باری که « فروشنده» دستاورد دانشمندان جوان ایرانی است، سوت و کف کشیده و هلهله می‌کنند، از رقابت تنگاتنگ برای حراج دستاوردهای کشور نباید تعجب کنیم. ابتدا هسته‌ای، سپس هم موشکی! از حوزه‌ای به حوزه‌ای دیگر
> 
> به گزارش رجانیوز از سرمقاله «حافظ شخصیت نظام آمریکا و فرانسه» احمد نقیب‌زاده در روزنامه آرمان چندی بیشتر نمی‌گذرد که امروز روزنامه شرق از پدیده دیگری رونمایی کرد! سید علی خرم فردی که خود را استاد حقوق بین‌الملل می‌نامد در یادداشتی تحت عنوان « اعتماد سازی موشکی برای اروپا » بی‌پرده از مسئله‌ای سخن گفته که دولت‌مردان تا حدی از بیان صریح آن طفره می‌رفتند. مذاکرات موشکی!
> 
> این همه قرابت با امنیت ملی آمریکا و فرانسه عادی به نظر نمی‌رسد/آیا ترامپ و ماکرون با اسم مستعار در روزنامه آرمان سرمقاله می‌نویسند؟!
> 
> استدلال‌های مدنظر استاد حقوق بین‌الملل را اگر به خود اروپایی‌ها و آمریکایی‌ها هم نشان بدهید باورشان نخواهد شد که موفق به پرورش چنین طرفدار دوآتیشه‌ای در داخل مرزهای جمهوری اسلامی‌ای شده‌اند که در عمر چهاردهه‌ای خود، آن‌ها را از کل منطقه غرب آسیا اخراج کرده‌ است!
> 
> و وی مدعی می‌شود که اروپا از توسعه برنامه صنعت موشکی ایران احساس خطر می‌کند چرا که اولاً ایران برد موشک‌هایش را تبلیغ می‌کند و ثانیاً کشورهای دیگر را تهدید می‌کنند! نباید بگذاریم که خدای نکرده اروپایی‌ها ناراحت شوند و به سمت ترامپ بروند! راه حل مذاکرات موشکی است! چگونه؟ بسیار لذیذ، خوش و خرم و طی مذاکره‌ای اروپایی‌ها باید تعهد بدهند که در عوض محدودیت‌های موشکی، نیروی هوایی ایران را مجهز کنند. این فرصت گرانبهایی است تا هم نیروی هوایی ایران بازسازی می‌شود و هم اروپا برای مهار ترامپ در کنار ایران باشند!
> 
> مقدماتی صددر صد غلط و نتیجه که دیگر جای خود دارد! انگار نه انگار که قدرت‌نمایی موشکی ایران تنها در پاسخ به تهدیداتی رژیم صهیونیستی و آمریکا بود آن‌هم زمانی که رسماً اعلام می‌کردند با بمب‌های سنگر شکن خود قرار است تاسیسات هسته‌ای ایران را نابود کنند. و چقدر ساده‌انگارانه‌است که فرض کنیم نگرانی اروپا از برنامه دفاع موشکی ایران بخاطر تبلیغ برد موشکی است و ساده‌لوحانه‌تر این‌که تصور کنیم کشورهای اروپایی که برای یک برنامه صلح آمیز هسته‌ای تحت نظارت آژانس شش قطعنامه صادر کرده و سرآخر هم طی توافقی ایران را از حق طبیعی خود محروم کردند و دانشمندان جوان ایرانی را بیکار! این‌ها بیایند و نیروی هوایی ایران را بازسازی کنند! آن‌هم به چه بهایی؟ در ازای این‌که پس از احمدی روشن حاضر به فروش دستاوردهای تهرانی مقدم شویم!
> 
> 
> Video Player
> دانلود فیلم
> 
> 
> بر این باور نیستیم که این یادداشت حتی به لحاظ علم روابط و حقوق بین‌الملل هم ارزش پاسخ‌گویی داشته باشد! وگرنه حتی دانشجویان ترم یک علوم سیاسی هم می‌دانند که امنیت کالای قابل داد و ستدی نیست؛ اما سوال اصلی از شورای عالی امنیت ملی است که چگونه می‌تواند دربرابر انتشار مطالب این چنینی سکوت کند در حالی که رگ گردنش در برابر انقلابی‌گری کیهان باد می‌کند و حکم به توقیف دو روزه آن می‌دهد!
> 
> و باز هم باید تاکید کرد که این یادداشت در داخل ایران و توسط فردی نوشته شده که خود را استاد حقوق بین‌الملل می‌خواند!



Disgraceful. Missile are made for destroying not for negotiating.

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## mohsen

*Tehran prosecutor gen. recounts missile espionage by environment cameras*

Tue 13 February 2018 - 21:24

TEHRAN, Feb. 13 (MNA) – Abbas Jafari Dowlatabadi, Tehran Prosecutor General said that Kavous Seyyed Emami was a member of team of pro-environmentalists who spied on Iranian missile sites.
“On January 9th, a written report by one of security entities of the country was delivered to Shahid Moghaddas court of prosecution recounting that a group of suspects have been cooperating with CIA and Mossad,” said Abbas Jafari Dowlatabadi, Tehran Prosecutor General, on Tuesday.

The Judiciary official added that the charged ones were tasked with a three-fold mission to conduct environmental projects, infiltrate into the scientific community of the country, and collect information on sensitive sites and some missile sites of the country.

The news was broken out after one of the accused spies of the dossier, Kavous Seyyed Emami, committed suicide while in detention in Evin prison of Tehran.

Before the Iranian members of this project were arrested, two CIA agents had repeatedly travelled to Iran to open a pro-environment institute with branches across all Iranian cities, according to Tehran prosecutor general.

He said that in the course of interrogation sessions, the arrested spies had confessed that they had attended conferences in occupied lands by Israeli regime to meet with Mossad officers.

“The members of this team, had installed some cameras in some sensitive sites of the country under the pretext of pro-environment activities to monitor Iranian missile activities. They then sent the videos and photos to foreign intelligence services,” added the judiciary official.

“After Mr. Seyyed Emami was arrested and the documents and alibies were presented to him, he requested for a break to prepare his response,” recounted Mr. Dowlatabadi.

“After Mr. Seyyed Emami returned to his place he prepared the situation for committing suicide and committed suicide at the bathroom of his place,” he said.
---------
It's no wonder suddenly all western media got interested in protecting Iranian cheetahs which lives in central Iran, where we hold our missile tests.
search the the phrase "iran cheetah protect" and look at the dates to find out how suddenly the whole west decided to care about our Cheetahs!
as expected, reformists media started another campaign to show the case as a mistake and radical move of our intelligence services, without even knowing the evidences.

*حسین شریعتمداری*
*یوز ایرانی یا جاسوس‌آمریکایی؟!*




*کیهان به نوبه خود طی گزارش مفصلی در اسفند ماه ۱۳۹۳ و با عنوان «مجوز شکار حیوانات یا جمع‌آوری اطلاعات»! به ماجرای مشکوک حضور اتباع آمریکا و انگلیس و ... که در پوشش شکار به مناطق کویری ایران گسیل شده بودند، پرداخت*

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## N_Al40

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965996383361740800

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965928891029377024
I'm strangely on board for this...

Only because the Trump Admin. is so incompetent that maybe Iran can have an easier time satisfying it's needs; as opposed to dealing with the Obama Admin. that where technocratic and knowledgeable in Intl. Law.

But they should demand that our missiles remain at 2500KM range, and also keep our full arsenal of missiles and allows us to expand them.

Which leads me to ask myself...what is there to talk about?


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## VEVAK

N_Al40 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965996383361740800
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965928891029377024
> I'm strangely on board for this...
> 
> Only because the Trump Admin. is so incompetent that maybe Iran can have an easier time satisfying it's needs; as opposed to dealing with the Obama Admin. that where technocratic and knowledgeable in Intl. Law.
> 
> But they should demand that our missiles remain at 2500KM range, and also keep our full arsenal of missiles and allows us to expand them.
> 
> Which leads me to ask myself...what is there to talk about?



The main problem Iran will have in officially agreeing to any international agreement that restricts the range of Iranian Ballistic Missiles is when it comes to it's space program!

Iran's Simorgh launchers if weaponized could have a range of well beyond 2500km and even they are NOT adequate enough for Iran's space program. 

Fact is the ink hasn't dried on the JCPOA and they already wanna tare it up for something better! And it would be foolish of Iran to wanna indulge them!

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## Stryker1982

IRGC is just posturing. Iran would never negotiate over the missile program without Khamenis approvals so they will lie and pretend that they will not negotiate, but in reality we know they must've given permission behind the scenes.

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## AmirPatriot

Yes PDF, Iran is going to negotiate its missile program with the Netherlands and Spain.


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## N_Al40

AmirPatriot said:


> Yes PDF, Iran is going to negotiate its missile program with the Netherlands and Spain.



No one is suggesting that at all; superficial reading.

The Netherlands and Spain could play a mediating role, and this isn't without precedent (for middle European powers to serve as a bridge between Iran and a global political heavyweight).

Worth noting that their trips were in tandem, unannounced, and even took FM Spokesman Bahram Qassemi by surprise. Make of that what you will.


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## AmirPatriot

Can't believe I have to do this...

*Netherlands, Spain reiterate EU’s full support for JCPOA*



*Political Desk*
The Netherlands and Spain on Wednesday echoed the European Union’s support for the 2015 nuclear deal between Iran and six world powers as their top diplomats met separately Iranian President Hassan Rouhani in Tehran. 

Dutch Acting Minister of Foreign Minister Sigrid Kaag, who arrived in Tehran a day earlier, stressed the EU’s continued commitment to the landmark nuclear agreement, and the role the deal played in the development of bilateral relations.

Kaag further highlighted the need for the continuation of talks between Tehran and the bloc towards further trust-building in areas of common interest.

_She also pointed to Iran’s missile program, and said her country recognized the Islamic Republic’s right to maintain a defensive military program, and considered such a program to be legitimate._



*Commitment to JCPOA*

At the meeting, Rouhani rejected a US demand for amending the nuclear agreement. 

“One cannot add something to the JCPOA or distract something from it,” Rouhani said, referring by abbreviation to the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, the official name of the nuclear deal.

The United States under President Donald Trump has been untiringly trying to sabotage the accord, and has threatened to leave it or have it renegotiated.

Rouhani said as long as the other parties commit to their obligations under the deal, “The Islamic Republic will do its utmost to preserve the agreement, and will, undoubtedly, not be the party initiating its violation among the seven countries.”



*End Yemen war*

Rouhani further urged Saudi Arabia and its allies to stop their “blame game” against Iran over Yemen’s crisis, saying efforts should instead be driven towards ending the deadly war on the impoverished nation and pave the way for intra-Yemeni dialogue.

He rejected the accusations against Iran of missile shipment to Yemen as “completely wrong and baseless,” saying such claims do not serve to resolve the standing problems.

Instead of fabricating such accusations, efforts should be made to immediately end the war on Yemen, establish a ceasefire there, provide humanitarian assistance to violence-stricken people, and finally pave the ground for intra-Yemeni talks, Rouhani said.

Rouhani also drew attention to the large-scale sales of destructive arms by Western states to regional countries, saying the military equipment, including warplanes and missiles, are being used against innocent civilians.



*Iran welcomes Dutch investment*

The president also said there were “extensive capacities” for the development of Iran and the Netherland’s cooperation. The current trade volume stands at around €1 billion, which has to increase, he added.

The Islamic Republic, he said, welcomes the participation of Dutch companies in projects in different areas.

He emphasized the need for the Dutch government to encourage the country’s banking sector to establish stronger ties with its Iranian counterpart.



*Tehran-Madrid ties*

Speaking with Spanish Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis, Rouhani referred to the ample opportunities and potentials for boosting ties between Iran and Spain and stressed efforts to develop and cement relations between the two countries in all fields of mutual interest.

“Deepening Tehran-Madrid ties will be beneficial to both nations," said Rouhani, adding that “there are numerous opportunities for investment in energy, minerals, steel, environment and energy saving sectors in Iran, which Spanish investors can take advantage of".

The president emphasized that the full implementation of the nuclear deal is in the interest of the region and the world and facilitates development of the European Union's relations with Iran.

"This agreement is the fruit of many years of negotiation between Iran and Europe, and all parties must adhere to their obligations in that regard and act accordingly".

Rouhani noted that after the signing and implementation of the agreement there is no reason to bargain and renegotiate, saying: "The Islamic Republic of Iran will adhere to the JCPOA as long as the other party does so".



*EU support for nuclear deal*

Dastis described Iran as a powerful and influential country in the region and hoped that the development of cooperation and consultations between Tehran and Madrid would boost stability, prosperity and security for the people of the region.

Pointing out that there are good potentials for the development of inclusive relations between Iran and Spain, especially after the JCPOA, Dastis said: "We must work hard to further deepen relations between the two countries in various sectors, including agriculture, industry, environment, science and academia, commercial and economic, and regional and international cooperation".

Emphasizing full support of the European Union for the strength and implementation of the JCPOA, he said: "Cementing relations with Iran is very important for Spain and the European Union member states, and we can strengthen our relations through continuation of the JCPOA".

The top Spanish diplomat also referred to the need for the intervention of influential countries in the region to end the humanitarian crisis in Yemen, and continued: "We believe that all countries should work hard to establish peace, security and stability in the region, and in this regard, any arms race must be prevented".

http://iran-daily.com/News/210367.html

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## Cthulhu

AmirPatriot said:


> Yes PDF, Iran is going to negotiate its missile program with the Netherlands and Spain.


Are you joking or being serious right now?

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## SubWater

They want to bring another 8 years sacred war for Iran.
The only effective weapon we have to defend ourselves is missiles, In other hands all of our neighbors are armed to teeth with most modern weapons in the world.

I suggest All of you guys watch below Video from foreign minister of Saddam in 1359 in second week of Iran-Iraq war.

It is clear the mindset of Iraqis and how they calculate the war results.
if we had strong army and strong Central government, they would not have dare and courage to attack Iran






The another example is Saudi and Yemen in 2015 which Saudis attack another weak country base on their calculations


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## drmeson

Mullahs will never back down from missile deterrence. Its the only tool that can keep IRI relevant in regional military politics.


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## AmirPatriot

Cthulhu said:


> Are you joking or being serious right now?



Of course I'm being sarcastic  The facepalm is directed at PDF.

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## AmirPatriot

@PeeD @eagle2007 would it be possible to have an anti-ship ballistic missile based on the Zolfiqar or Sejjil without using GPS guidance (which has civilian restrictions - 60,000 ft and 515 m/s)? Would a ship at sea be found with SAR, and that position (How would satellite imagery/SAR data be translated into geographical position without GPS?) being relayed to a launcher which would somehow fire the missile with INS accurate enough to be close enough for terminal (ARH or optical) guidance? Is that possible or practical?


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## skyshadow



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## Zathura

*Satellite Images Reveal Iran Establishing Missile Base Near Damascus - Reports*

Recent satellite imagery taken outside Syria's capital Damascus show that Iran has constructed a likely missile base that can strike anywhere in Israel, according to media reports.

The Iranian facility is operated by the Quds Force, known as the special operations force of the larger Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), and is located approximately eight miles southwest of Damascus, Fox News reported on Tuesday.

The media outlet said it acquired satellite photos from ImageSat International, which purportedly show two new white hangars, each roughly 30 yards by 20 yards, used to store short-and medium-range missiles, the report said.

Israel has repeatedly warned Iran that it will defend itself against any attack from the Islamic Republic.

Israel is reported to have as many as 200 nuclear weapons, some apparently capable of launch from its submarine force.

Earlier on Tuesday, US Central Command chief Gen. Joseph Votel said in a congressional testimony that countering Iran is not one of the missions of the US-led coalition in Syria, the report said.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201802281062059058-iran-syria-base-missile-israel/

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## Fafnir

Zathura said:


> *Satellite Images Reveal Iran Establishing Missile Base Near Damascus - Reports*
> 
> Recent satellite imagery taken outside Syria's capital Damascus show that Iran has constructed a likely missile base that can strike anywhere in Israel, according to media reports.
> 
> The Iranian facility is operated by the Quds Force, known as the special operations force of the larger Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), and is located approximately eight miles southwest of Damascus, Fox News reported on Tuesday.
> 
> The media outlet said it acquired satellite photos from ImageSat International, which purportedly show two new white hangars, each roughly 30 yards by 20 yards, used to store short-and medium-range missiles, the report said.
> 
> Israel has repeatedly warned Iran that it will defend itself against any attack from the Islamic Republic.
> 
> Israel is reported to have as many as 200 nuclear weapons, some apparently capable of launch from its submarine force.
> 
> Earlier on Tuesday, US Central Command chief Gen. Joseph Votel said in a congressional testimony that countering Iran is not one of the missions of the US-led coalition in Syria, the report said.
> 
> https://sputniknews.com/military/201802281062059058-iran-syria-base-missile-israel/


Ahhh!,nothing like some fake news


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## Aramagedon

*IRGC Unveils New Anti-Armor Missile, Other Military Gears*

*TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Ground Force unveiled a new domestically-designed and –manufactured anti-armor automatic missile on Wednesday. * 




The new military gear, dubbed “Azarakhsh (lightning)”, was unveiled during a ceremony in Tehran on Wednesday attended by IRGC Commander Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari and IRGC Ground Force Brigadier General Mohammad Pakpour.

The 127-millimeter caliber rocket weighs around 70 kilograms and can be installed on helicopter pylons.

The missile has a range of 10 kilometers (approximately 6.2 miles) and can lock on to its target, track it and automatically detect it.

The air-to-surface and surface-to-surface missile is also equipped with thermographic detectors with a maximum speed of 550 meters per second.

A multifunction tester used for measuring electrical parameters of Mi-17 helicopters as well as a night vision system for the Mil Mi-17 was also unveiled during the ceremony.

Iranian military experts and technicians have in recent years made great headways in manufacturing a broad range of indigenous equipment, making the armed forces self-sufficient in the arms sphere.

Tehran has always assured other nations that its military might poses no threat to regional countries, saying that the Islamic Republic’s defense doctrine is entirely based on deterrence.

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## Fafnir

2800 said:


> *IRGC Unveils New Anti-Armor Missile, Other Military Gears*
> 
> *TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Ground Force unveiled a new domestically-designed and –manufactured anti-armor automatic missile on Wednesday. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new military gear, dubbed “Azarakhsh (lightning)”, was unveiled during a ceremony in Tehran on Wednesday attended by IRGC Commander Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari and IRGC Ground Force Brigadier General Mohammad Pakpour.
> 
> The 127-millimeter caliber rocket weighs around 70 kilograms and can be installed on helicopter pylons.
> 
> The missile has a range of 10 kilometers (approximately 6.2 miles) and can lock on to its target, track it and automatically detect it.
> 
> The air-to-surface and surface-to-surface missile is also equipped with thermographic detectors with a maximum speed of 550 meters per second.
> 
> A multifunction tester used for measuring electrical parameters of Mi-17 helicopters as well as a night vision system for the Mil Mi-17 was also unveiled during the ceremony.
> 
> Iranian military experts and technicians have in recent years made great headways in manufacturing a broad range of indigenous equipment, making the armed forces self-sufficient in the arms sphere.
> 
> Tehran has always assured other nations that its military might poses no threat to regional countries, saying that the Islamic Republic’s defense doctrine is entirely based on deterrence.


The night vision system for the mi-17 sounds good and badly needed as well




Heres an example of a rawandan mi-17 fitted out with flir ball


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## Stryker1982

2800 said:


> *IRGC Unveils New Anti-Armor Missile, Other Military Gears*
> 
> *TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Ground Force unveiled a new domestically-designed and –manufactured anti-armor automatic missile on Wednesday. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new military gear, dubbed “Azarakhsh (lightning)”, was unveiled during a ceremony in Tehran on Wednesday attended by IRGC Commander Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari and IRGC Ground Force Brigadier General Mohammad Pakpour.
> 
> The 127-millimeter caliber rocket weighs around 70 kilograms and can be installed on helicopter pylons.
> 
> The missile has a range of 10 kilometers (approximately 6.2 miles) and can lock on to its target, track it and automatically detect it.
> 
> The air-to-surface and surface-to-surface missile is also equipped with thermographic detectors with a maximum speed of 550 meters per second.
> 
> A multifunction tester used for measuring electrical parameters of Mi-17 helicopters as well as a night vision system for the Mil Mi-17 was also unveiled during the ceremony.
> 
> Iranian military experts and technicians have in recent years made great headways in manufacturing a broad range of indigenous equipment, making the armed forces self-sufficient in the arms sphere.
> 
> Tehran has always assured other nations that its military might poses no threat to regional countries, saying that the Islamic Republic’s defense doctrine is entirely based on deterrence.




Is this missile meant to play an ATGM role like a Toophan? Cause this weapon is HUGE, and if those stats about 10 km range and 550 m/s is true, this is very very lethal


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## Fafnir

Stryker1982 said:


> Is this missile meant to play an ATGM role like a Toophan? Cause this weapon is HUGE, and if those stats about 10 km range and 550 m/s is true, this is very very lethal


LOL!,its air launched,the bloody thing weights in at 85kgs+,not to mention its 10ft long,so its not what you would call man portable by any stretch of the imagination,you`d likely be using this from something like an su25 or similar


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## Stryker1982

Fafnir said:


> LOL!,its air launched,the bloody thing weights in at 85kgs+,not to mention its 10ft long,so its not what you would call man portable by any stretch of the imagination,you`d likely be using this from something like an su25 or similar



Makes sense, but is that picture really the "Lightning" or did they just put a random picture in the article. As people pointed it out looks like a AA missile


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## Kastor

How many different freaking pieces of hardware are they going to name Azkarash, Fateh or Karrar for god's sakes??? Is there a name shortage in Iran or something, this is getting confusing.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Dinky

they should throw some chinese names into the mix, I really like some of the Chinese names xD


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## Fafnir

Stryker1982 said:


> Makes sense, but is that picture really the "Lightning" or did they just put a random picture in the article. As people pointed it out looks like a AA missile


That was my first thought too actually simply because it is an a2a missile,its an old 70s era sidewinder with what appears to be a new front end fitted,probably with a larger seeker from the looks of it,altho I suppose theres a small chance it could be an imaging job like in the javelin but I doubt it somehow.This has been done before by the us who played around with the idea on a few occasions even going so far as to use it very briefly as a agm in vietnam and to actually put into service for a few years an harm/arm which was a modified version of the old stocks of sarh sidewinders.


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## N_Al40

Is he talking about Soumar?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969626558481780741


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## VEVAK

Fafnir said:


> That was my first thought too actually simply because it is an a2a missile,its an old 70s era sidewinder with what appears to be a new front end fitted,probably with a larger seeker from the looks of it,altho I suppose theres a small chance it could be an imaging job like in the javelin but I doubt it somehow.This has been done before by the us who played around with the idea on a few occasions even going so far as to use it very briefly as a agm in vietnam and to actually put into service for a few years an harm/arm which was a modified version of the old stocks of sarh sidewinders.



Aside from being able to be launched from higher speed platforms in the future if this system has even half the speed of a Sidewinder that would make it extremely difficult for an armored vehicle to utilize modern ATGM countermeasures 

If I was Iran I would also order the development a micro jet powered version of the Sadid with new design characteristic and a longer range receiver capable of being piloted by the co-pilot of a Helo or UAV operator up to ~50km away from the Aircraft which will greatly increase the survivability of your helo's & UAV's


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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> Aside from being able to be launched from higher speed platforms in the future if this system has even half the speed of a Sidewinder that would make it extremely difficult for an armored vehicle to utilize modern ATGM countermeasures
> 
> If I was Iran I would also order the development a micro jet powered version of the Sadid with new design characteristic and a longer range receiver capable of being piloted by the co-pilot of a Helo or UAV operator up to ~50km away from the Aircraft which will greatly increase the survivability of your helo's & UAV's


Well I wonder how that uav or helicopter want to detect its target 50km away.
I'm not aware of any of our drones or helicopters have such capabilities.


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## VEVAK

N_Al40 said:


> Is he talking about Soumar?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/969626558481780741



In terms of subsonic land attack cruise missiles Soumar & Ya-Ali is what has been made public so far but I would say it's quite doubtful that those are Iran's only LACM!
Iranian military officials have hinted in the past that they are working on ram jet technology and have hinted toward even purchasing Russian supersonic anti ship cruise missiles for coastal defense 
but even if Iran develops such a system they would have a very limited range


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> Well I wonder how that uav or helicopter want to detect its target 50km away.
> I'm not aware of any of our drones or helicopters have such capabilities.




It would act as a cross between a light UAV and an ATGM and the point of such a system would be to increase the survivability of larger more expensive systems 

The weapon system would have to be piloted by the co pilot of the Helo or UAV and up to a range of only 40-50km you can fit & add a light enough transmitter that can achieve that range on a HELO or a MALE UAV and such a system would have the capability to fly in a search pattern over an area until the pilot (Co-Pilot)finds it's target

Fire and forget terminal guidance would NOT happen from 50km away it would happen after the person piloting the weapon systems finds and locks on the target! 

So for example you get a call for Air Support from troops on the ground at a specific location 100km away from a base then you launch your platform (UAV or Helo) & when your around ~30-40km away from that area you launch the UAV(weapon) that would have a speeds far greater than any MALE UAV or Helo (+600kph) and your weapon system will naturally be equipped with optical sensor on the weapon will allow the pilot to search the area and lock on to a target

Aside from troops on the ground acquiring moving target location can also be done using various types of light Iranian UAV's, low cost recon helo's or camouflaged ground sensors then the location will be transmitted to larger more expensive platform allowing them to fire from a safe enough distance to keep them out of range of MANPAD's, AAA & Short range SAM systems or you can use that weapon to take out or deplete air defense systems before your Helo reaches the area.....

I can keep going on and on how such a system would be useful from Escort missions to search and destroy to close air support.....


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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> It would act as a cross between a light UAV and an ATGM and the point of such a system would be to increase the survivability of larger more expensive systems
> 
> The weapon system would have to be piloted by the co pilot of the Helo or UAV and up to a range of only 40-50km you can fit & add a light enough transmitter that can achieve that range on a HELO or a MALE UAV and such a system would have the capability to fly in a search pattern over an area until the pilot (Co-Pilot)finds it's target
> 
> Fire and forget terminal guidance would NOT happen from 50km away it would happen after the person piloting the weapon systems finds and locks on the target!
> 
> So for example you get a call for Air Support from troops on the ground at a specific location 100km away from a base then you launch your platform (UAV or Helo) & when your around ~30-40km away from that area you launch the UAV(weapon) that would have a speeds far greater than any MALE UAV or Helo (+600kph) and your weapon system will naturally be equipped with optical sensor on the weapon will allow the pilot to search the area and lock on to a target
> 
> Aside from troops on the ground acquiring moving target location can also be done using various types of light Iranian UAV's, low cost recon helo's or camouflaged ground sensors then the location will be transmitted to larger more expensive platform allowing them to fire from a safe enough distance to keep them out of range of MANPAD's, AAA & Short range SAM systems or you can use that weapon to take out or deplete air defense systems before your Helo reaches the area.....
> 
> I can keep going on and on how such a system would be useful from Escort missions to search and destroy to close air support.....


and how heavy the system is ,what you suggest is putting stronger radar on weapon than platform and sending it toward target , the weapon must be at must 200kg so it can be carried by a uav in class of Shahed-129 , now if our best radar for AH-1j or even f-5 can detect up to 20-30km then how you want to use a 50km radar on a 200kg weapon .
and your target detection philosophy is also flawed you want to use a lot of different UAV to detect targets ?that's simply absurd.


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## N_Al40

LOOL!! What is he smoking?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/970371555380416513


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## PeeD

AmirPatriot said:


> @PeeD @eagle2007 would it be possible to have an anti-ship ballistic missile based on the Zolfiqar or Sejjil without using GPS guidance (which has civilian restrictions - 60,000 ft and 515 m/s)? Would a ship at sea be found with SAR, and that position (How would satellite imagery/SAR data be translated into geographical position without GPS?) being relayed to a launcher which would somehow fire the missile with INS accurate enough to be close enough for terminal (ARH or optical) guidance? Is that possible or practical?



Terminal guidance is a must have for a ballistic anti-ship missile. In the 5 minutes plus till the missile reaches the target the course variation of the target could be more than predicted. An ARH seeker with optional SAR mode and a IIR seeker would be a good combo for terminal phase and a INS for the rest. GPS can also be used with a non-civilian special receiver, but as the satellite signals can be turned off and sent less accurate, it will never replace the INS on a ballistic missile (fast transit time compared to CMs). For long duration flights, or "peace-time" non-intensive weapons as well as applications where low price is required, GPS becomes important. From what it looks like, Russian, Chinese, European or even future Indian GPS signals have the potential to remain active in most war scenarios for Iran, at least one of them.

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## raptor22

N_Al40 said:


> LOOL!! What is he smoking?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/970371555380416513


*Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable? *


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## Muhammed45

raptor22 said:


> *Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable? *


The problem is that every missile with more than almost 500/600 Kg payload, can carry nuclear warheads. The much we give up the more they get ruder to receive more points. We are at proxy war with west, and this loser government is wasting our energy on useless agreements with colonialists.

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## Hack-Hook

raptor22 said:


> *Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable? *


the article is based on the wrong claim that tri-conic warhead was used to accommodate a nuclear device while in fact that design were used to increase the stability and decrease circular precision .
the article just want to say Iran must stop working on longer range missile and only limit itself to Fatih-110 and its family of missile .



mohammad45 said:


> The problem is that every missile with more than almost 500/600 Kg payload, can carry nuclear warheads. The much we give up the more they get ruder to receive more points. We are at proxy war with west, and this loser government is wasting our energy on useless agreements with colonialists.


the government didn't made any concession except on the matters that we clearly stated we are not interested it at the beginning.

and no every missile is a nuclear capable one even a mortar or a shell can be nuclear capable.

the problem with the government is that they don't push forward on the usa acting against the deal , and western private companies ,fearing to deal with Iran just because of USA talks.
European are fearing the deal go in the way of Dodo ,so they bow to trump demands , we must emphasize on the fact that we may pull ot of the deal if they continue dishonor their obligation .

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## raptor22

Hack-Hook said:


> the article is based on the wrong claim that tri-conic warhead was used to accommodate a nuclear device while in fact that design were used to increase the stability and decrease circular precision .
> the article just want to say Iran must stop working on longer range missile and only limit itself to Fatih-110 and its family of missile .
> 
> 
> the government didn't made any concession except on the matters that we clearly stated we are not interested it at the beginning.
> 
> and no every missile is a nuclear capable one even a mortar or a shell can be nuclear capable.
> 
> the problem with the government is that they don't push forward on the usa acting against the deal , and western private companies ,fearing to deal with Iran just because of USA talks.
> European are fearing the deal go in the way of Dodo ,so they bow to trump demands , we must emphasize on the fact that we may pull ot of the deal if they continue dishonor their obligation .


I know I just wanted to point out where the source of this claims are ... before JCPoA we had the same thinks thanks suggesting the structure if the N-deal and we all considered them fantasy .. but later on ...
In case of a nuclear capable device even a man or a bag could be used ...it's what @AmirPatriot broght as an example while ago ...
Special Operations Forces Backpack Nukes


How we made it clear while French FM whom threaten Iran by sanctions and has big mouth is welcomed in Tehran today? I am not against diplomatic gestures and talks but at least we should give them a shock ..after JCPoA they thinks other deals over other issues is possible and not only we have done nothing to clear that up someone advertise it over here ... missile and space tests have decreased while we are adhering to the deal and the white house wanna get out of the it and now ask for more ... it's all because of our wrong impressions we've been giving to the world that we don't negotiate unless pressures increase ...


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> and how heavy the system is ,what you suggest is putting stronger radar on weapon than platform and sending it toward target , the weapon must be at must 200kg so it can be carried by a uav in class of Shahed-129 , now if our best radar for AH-1j or even f-5 can detect up to 20-30km then how you want to use a 50km radar on a 200kg weapon .
> and your target detection philosophy is also flawed you want to use a lot of different UAV to detect targets ?that's simply absurd.



You clearly didn't comprehend what I was saying! 

And clearly you don't have the slightest clue of what it is your talking about! 

1st off adding a powerful enough single compressor single turbine micro jet engine plus enough fuel to travel only ~50km to the Sadid would weight under 50lb (TOTAL)

You only need about 3lb of fuel for that range & the actual engine and all it's components would again weight well under 7lb for up to a 50lbf engine so again YOU DON'T have the slightest clue what it is your talking about! 






And again the actual weapons that is fired would have to be piloted until the target is located! And aside from the platform that launches the weapon you don't require any additional system! 

Countries don't deploy Attack Helo's and armed MALE UAV's on hunches! They send them to specific locations to conduct specific tasks and missions!



raptor22 said:


> *Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable? *





mohammad45 said:


> The problem is that every missile with more than almost 500/600 Kg payload, can carry nuclear warheads. The much we give up the more they get ruder to receive more points. We are at proxy war with west, and this loser government is wasting our energy on useless agreements with colonialists.



You can put a nuke on an artillery projectile! 






At the end of the day they wanna claim that all of Iran's Ballistic Missiles with ranges beyond 300km are not only Nuclear Capable but designed to be nuclear capable! 

At the end of the day for them all that matters is the missiles that can reach Israel! 

Again we see the ink hasn't dried on the JCPOA and they want Iran to agree to a deal on it's Ballistic Missiles! and agreeing to ANY Deal even a deal that allows Iran to have SLV's & Ballistic Missiles with ranges of up to even 4000km is that they are going to want verification! And that opens the door for far easier covert actions against Iran's main line of defense.

Unless they had hopes of invading Iran sometime in the Future, Iran's Ballistic Missiles should not be bothering them as much as it is!

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> You clearly didn't comprehend what I was saying!
> 
> And clearly you don't have the slightest clue of what it is your talking about!
> 
> 1st off adding a powerful enough single compressor single turbine micro jet engine plus enough fuel to travel only ~50km to the Sadid would weight under 50lb (TOTAL)
> 
> You only need about 3lb of fuel for that range & the actual engine and all it's components would again weight well under 7lb for up to a 50lbf engine so again YOU DON'T have the slightest clue what it is your talking about!
> View attachment 457583
> 
> 
> And again the actual weapons that is fired would have to be piloted until the target is located! And aside from the platform that launches the weapon you don't require any additional system!
> 
> Countries don't deploy Attack Helo's and armed MALE UAV's on hunches! They send them to specific locations to conduct specific tasks and missions!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can put a nuke on an artillery projectile!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the day they wanna claim that all of Iran's Ballistic Missiles with ranges beyond 300km are not only Nuclear Capable but designed to be nuclear capable!
> 
> At the end of the day for them all that matters is the missiles that can reach Israel!
> 
> Again we see the ink hasn't dried on the JCPOA and they want Iran to agree to a deal on it's Ballistic Missiles! and agreeing to ANY Deal even a deal that allows Iran to have SLV's & Ballistic Missiles with ranges of up to even 4000km is that they are going to want verification! And that opens the door for far easier covert actions against Iran's main line of defense.
> 
> Unless they had hopes of invading Iran sometime in the Future, Iran's Ballistic Missiles should not be bothering them as much as it is!


Your problem is you don't comprehend your system need a great amount of power for that radar and that alone make it far heavier than what you think.

And no they don't hand drone on hunch but they also don't saturate space with drone .


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## skyshadow

Iranian guidable rocket
.
.
انتشار تصاویر جدید درباره 
رزمایش_مشترک_محمد_رسول_الله_5
.
.
همانطور که مطلع هستید حدود یک ماه پیش، پنجمین رزمایش مشترک محمد رسول الله توسط ارتش جمهوری اسلامی ایران برگزار شد.

یکی از موضوعات قابل توجه در آن رزمایش استفاده از راکتهای هدایت شونده و دقیق زن در آن رزمایش بود که بخاطر اطلاع رسانی نامناسب ابهاماتی درباره آن وجود داشت. در تصاویر منتشر شده شده قبلی، راکت فجر-5 سی یا همان موشک فجر-5 مشاهده شده بود. سپس در یکی از مراحل رزمایش خبری تحت عنوان تست راکت هدایت شونده "لبیک-1" نیز منتشر شد از طرف دیگر تصویری از گونه هدایت شونده راکتی منتشر شد که به لحاظ سایز، ظاهرا در کلاس راکتهای نازعات و یا زلزال بود و دقیقا مشخص نشد که راکت لبیک-1 همان زلزال یا نازعات هدایت شونده هست هست یا نه.

امروز و در یک برنامه تلویزیونی، تصاویر دیگری از این رزمایش منتشر شد که مهمترین نکته آن نمایش لحظه اصابت یک پرتابه دقیق به هدف، و لحظه شلیک راکتی بود که ظاهرا گونه هدایت شونده راکتی در کلاس راکتهای زلزال هست.

در ویدیوی اول شلیک راکت ذکر شده و صحنه اصابت را از دگ زاویه مختلف مشاهده میکنید. در تصاویر بعدی نیز شلیک و اصابت را مشاهده میکنید.

در تصویر آخر همان راکتی را مشاهده میکنید که قبلا تصاویر آن منتشر شده بود و احتمال داده میشد که همان راکت لبیک-1 هست.

موضوع اول اینکه با توجه به رنگ دماغه راکتها، ظاهرا تصاویر مربوط به دو راکت جدا از هم هست، حال اینکه هر دو راکت یک نوع هستند یا متفاوت میباشند، جای سوال دارد، مثلا ممکن هست یکی از راکتها در کلاس نازعات هدایت شونده و دیگری در کلاس زلزال هدایت شونده باشد، ولی با توجه به اطلاع رسانی نامناسب نمیتوان اظهار نظر قطعی داشت.

موضوع جالب توجه دیگر استفاده از پرتابگر_دوفروندی_ذوالفقار برای شلیک این راکت هدایت شونده میباشد و درواقع اولین بار هست که این پرتابگر وارد سازمان رزم ارتش شده است. پیش از این، این پرتابگر برای شلیک موشکهای خانواده فاتح و راکتهای زلزال در سپاه مشاهده شده بود و بنا به برخی گمانه زنی ها، کامیون استفاده شده در سیستمهای پدافندی خانواده طبس و سوم خرداد، نیروی هوافضای سپاه نیز ریشه مشترکی با این پرتابگر داشته و درواقع دو گونه توسعه یافته از یک محصول، متناسب با وظایف خود هستند.

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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> Your problem is you don't comprehend your system need a great amount of power for that radar and that alone make it far heavier than what you think.
> 
> And no they don't hand drone on hunch but they also don't saturate space with drone .



What radar?????????????? who said anything about a radar? !

As for how much electrical power it needs such a system would only be up in the air for 5 minutes MAX! so NO! Electrical power would NOT be the problem! 

So again YOU DON'T have the slightest clue!


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## mohsen

or you could upload the video!

https://yekupload.ir/4Nth/NEZAJA_precision_guided_rockets.mp4
simulated HD !



skyshadow said:


> View attachment 457672
> View attachment 457673
> View attachment 457674
> View attachment 457675
> View attachment 457676
> View attachment 457677
> View attachment 457678
> View attachment 457679
> 
> 
> Iranian guidable rocket
> .
> .
> انتشار تصاویر جدید درباره
> رزمایش_مشترک_محمد_رسول_الله_5
> .
> .
> همانطور که مطلع هستید حدود یک ماه پیش، پنجمین رزمایش مشترک محمد رسول الله توسط ارتش جمهوری اسلامی ایران برگزار شد.
> 
> یکی از موضوعات قابل توجه در آن رزمایش استفاده از راکتهای هدایت شونده و دقیق زن در آن رزمایش بود که بخاطر اطلاع رسانی نامناسب ابهاماتی درباره آن وجود داشت. در تصاویر منتشر شده شده قبلی، راکت فجر-5 سی یا همان موشک فجر-5 مشاهده شده بود. سپس در یکی از مراحل رزمایش خبری تحت عنوان تست راکت هدایت شونده "لبیک-1" نیز منتشر شد از طرف دیگر تصویری از گونه هدایت شونده راکتی منتشر شد که به لحاظ سایز، ظاهرا در کلاس راکتهای نازعات و یا زلزال بود و دقیقا مشخص نشد که راکت لبیک-1 همان زلزال یا نازعات هدایت شونده هست هست یا نه.
> 
> امروز و در یک برنامه تلویزیونی، تصاویر دیگری از این رزمایش منتشر شد که مهمترین نکته آن نمایش لحظه اصابت یک پرتابه دقیق به هدف، و لحظه شلیک راکتی بود که ظاهرا گونه هدایت شونده راکتی در کلاس راکتهای زلزال هست.
> 
> در ویدیوی اول شلیک راکت ذکر شده و صحنه اصابت را از دگ زاویه مختلف مشاهده میکنید. در تصاویر بعدی نیز شلیک و اصابت را مشاهده میکنید.
> 
> در تصویر آخر همان راکتی را مشاهده میکنید که قبلا تصاویر آن منتشر شده بود و احتمال داده میشد که همان راکت لبیک-1 هست.
> 
> موضوع اول اینکه با توجه به رنگ دماغه راکتها، ظاهرا تصاویر مربوط به دو راکت جدا از هم هست، حال اینکه هر دو راکت یک نوع هستند یا متفاوت میباشند، جای سوال دارد، مثلا ممکن هست یکی از راکتها در کلاس نازعات هدایت شونده و دیگری در کلاس زلزال هدایت شونده باشد، ولی با توجه به اطلاع رسانی نامناسب نمیتوان اظهار نظر قطعی داشت.
> 
> موضوع جالب توجه دیگر استفاده از پرتابگر_دوفروندی_ذوالفقار برای شلیک این راکت هدایت شونده میباشد و درواقع اولین بار هست که این پرتابگر وارد سازمان رزم ارتش شده است. پیش از این، این پرتابگر برای شلیک موشکهای خانواده فاتح و راکتهای زلزال در سپاه مشاهده شده بود و بنا به برخی گمانه زنی ها، کامیون استفاده شده در سیستمهای پدافندی خانواده طبس و سوم خرداد، نیروی هوافضای سپاه نیز ریشه مشترکی با این پرتابگر داشته و درواقع دو گونه توسعه یافته از یک محصول، متناسب با وظایف خود هستند.

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> What radar?????????????? who said anything about a radar? !
> 
> As for how much electrical power it needs such a system would only be up in the air for 5 minutes MAX! so NO! Electrical power would NOT be the problem!
> 
> So again YOU DON'T have the slightest clue!


its you who have no clue . if the missile want to reach the target it needs to be controlled by platform or have a separate radar. so you need fire and forget missiles or rely on operator and accept seconds of lag.
and for the information our problem for maintaining phoenix missiles was not its engine or its radar ,or .. it was the battery that we had problem maintaining and the radar on that missile had only around 18 km of range.
its not that only .

tell mo your air defence system uses what sort of guidance and i tell you what'll be the weight of the radar
by the way a 20km missile is not that light ,AIM7c have a weight of 180kg and a range of only 11km and it even don't have an active radar.


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> its you who have no clue . if the missile want to reach the target it needs to be controlled by platform or have a separate radar. so you need fire and forget missiles or rely on operator and accept seconds of lag.
> and for the information our problem for maintaining phoenix missiles was not its engine or its radar ,or .. it was the battery that we had problem maintaining and the radar on that missile had only around 18 km of range.
> its not that only .
> 
> tell mo your air defence system uses what sort of guidance and i tell you what'll be the weight of the radar
> by the way a 20km missile is not that light ,AIM7c have a weight of 180kg and a range of only 11km and it even don't have an active radar.



WRONG! WRONG! and WRONG! and it's becoming more clear how little you know! 

AIM-7 & AiM-9 are both supersonic missiles that requires a supersonic capable airframe! They burn fuel as fast as their engine allows to achieve extremely high speeds using ROCKET engines! 

A Micro jet engine with 50lbf of power use ~750ml/per min of fuel (at max thrust) and around -500ml of fuel at peak efficiency 
Also some micro jet engines are capable of producing a limited amount of electricity

as for fuel
1000ml = 1 liter = 1kg of water (~0.8kg of kerosene)
so 2.5 kg of kerosene = 3 liters of fuel ~ 6-5 minutes of flight

With an approximate speed of about 600kph you'll get 10km per minute of flight 

The engine + fuel system + fuel + internal remote starter with compressed air & fuel combined will be no more than 6kg-7kg and that's about 14-15lb (Not including Air frame) as for the Airframe Iran can custom build light composite airframes 





Just for comparison a 35 liter composite tank comes in at only 7kg 

AND AGAIN YOU DO NOT need a radar! How do you think smaller Iranian UAV's like Iran's version of the Scan Eagle or the Saegheh operate???? 

SO NO YOU DO NOT need a Radar!!!

You think switchblade uses a radar? All I'm proposing is a helo launched version of the switchblade with a turbojet engine capable of speeds of 500-600kph 

Even if the com range of such a system ends up being only 20km the missile can still maintain 50km range allowing the co pilot to search an area without putting the helo or MALE UAV at risk and it will greatly increase the survivability of your more expensive platforms

With the AH-1 you have a multi million dollar aircraft so the least you can do is equip it with the ability for secure line of sight digital communication up to 30km-40km away







For example instead of putting 2 AH-1's at risk like in the video above the co pilot launches the weapon from a helo at a safe distance (out of range of AAA & MANPADs) and uses onboard cameras to search the targeted area for the most high risk weapon system that poses the greatest risk to the helo before the helo comes in to finish the job








It is really not that complicated! 


There is no reason why Iran should put 2 AH-1's at risk like the way those pilots did in that video! 

And with a system like the one I'm proposing and speeds of +500kph you can not only go after ground target but also intercept other helo's at a greater range than the AiM-9


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## Hack-Hook

enlighten me how you want to detect enemy uav or helicopter that come toward you without radar .

and does those Iranian UAV work in the role you are suggesting for this system .
and sadly for your theory these sort of engine which are twice as powerful as what you suggest , can't reach those speeds
http://jetbeetle.com/JB_body_products.htm
also you are welcome to try and hit any uav flying at an altitude of 7-8km with that weak engine you propose


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## TheImmortal

Russia and China should just hire @VEVAK and they would dominate the world with his "ideas".

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## MTN1917

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 457672
> View attachment 457673
> View attachment 457674
> View attachment 457675
> View attachment 457676
> View attachment 457677
> View attachment 457678
> View attachment 457679
> 
> 
> Iranian guidable rocket
> .
> .
> انتشار تصاویر جدید درباره
> رزمایش_مشترک_محمد_رسول_الله_5
> .
> .
> همانطور که مطلع هستید حدود یک ماه پیش، پنجمین رزمایش مشترک محمد رسول الله توسط ارتش جمهوری اسلامی ایران برگزار شد.
> 
> یکی از موضوعات قابل توجه در آن رزمایش استفاده از راکتهای هدایت شونده و دقیق زن در آن رزمایش بود که بخاطر اطلاع رسانی نامناسب ابهاماتی درباره آن وجود داشت. در تصاویر منتشر شده شده قبلی، راکت فجر-5 سی یا همان موشک فجر-5 مشاهده شده بود. سپس در یکی از مراحل رزمایش خبری تحت عنوان تست راکت هدایت شونده "لبیک-1" نیز منتشر شد از طرف دیگر تصویری از گونه هدایت شونده راکتی منتشر شد که به لحاظ سایز، ظاهرا در کلاس راکتهای نازعات و یا زلزال بود و دقیقا مشخص نشد که راکت لبیک-1 همان زلزال یا نازعات هدایت شونده هست هست یا نه.
> 
> امروز و در یک برنامه تلویزیونی، تصاویر دیگری از این رزمایش منتشر شد که مهمترین نکته آن نمایش لحظه اصابت یک پرتابه دقیق به هدف، و لحظه شلیک راکتی بود که ظاهرا گونه هدایت شونده راکتی در کلاس راکتهای زلزال هست.
> 
> در ویدیوی اول شلیک راکت ذکر شده و صحنه اصابت را از دگ زاویه مختلف مشاهده میکنید. در تصاویر بعدی نیز شلیک و اصابت را مشاهده میکنید.
> 
> در تصویر آخر همان راکتی را مشاهده میکنید که قبلا تصاویر آن منتشر شده بود و احتمال داده میشد که همان راکت لبیک-1 هست.
> 
> موضوع اول اینکه با توجه به رنگ دماغه راکتها، ظاهرا تصاویر مربوط به دو راکت جدا از هم هست، حال اینکه هر دو راکت یک نوع هستند یا متفاوت میباشند، جای سوال دارد، مثلا ممکن هست یکی از راکتها در کلاس نازعات هدایت شونده و دیگری در کلاس زلزال هدایت شونده باشد، ولی با توجه به اطلاع رسانی نامناسب نمیتوان اظهار نظر قطعی داشت.
> 
> موضوع جالب توجه دیگر استفاده از پرتابگر_دوفروندی_ذوالفقار برای شلیک این راکت هدایت شونده میباشد و درواقع اولین بار هست که این پرتابگر وارد سازمان رزم ارتش شده است. پیش از این، این پرتابگر برای شلیک موشکهای خانواده فاتح و راکتهای زلزال در سپاه مشاهده شده بود و بنا به برخی گمانه زنی ها، کامیون استفاده شده در سیستمهای پدافندی خانواده طبس و سوم خرداد، نیروی هوافضای سپاه نیز ریشه مشترکی با این پرتابگر داشته و درواقع دو گونه توسعه یافته از یک محصول، متناسب با وظایف خود هستند.



That is probably Labayk-1 guided ballistic missile which was used by Army's Ground Force for the first time in Mohammad Rasul Alah-5 maneuver , it is interesting that it uses IRGC manufactured Zolfaghar TEL.

This is a worthy addition to IRIGF inventory.

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## yavar



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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> enlighten me how you want to detect enemy uav or helicopter that come toward you without radar .
> 
> and does those Iranian UAV work in the role you are suggesting for this system .
> and sadly for your theory these sort of engine which are twice as powerful as what you suggest , can't reach those speeds
> http://jetbeetle.com/JB_body_products.htm
> also you are welcome to try and hit any uav flying at an altitude of 7-8km with that weak engine you propose




Again, YOU DO NOT NEED a radar on your platform or the weapon!

And how you detect a location of any target would vary based on different factors! And it would be no different than how Iran detects targets today!

You can get intel from various ground sensors (Just as Iranian F-5's did in the Iran-Iraq war due to their extremely limited radars) 

You can use onboard optical sensors up to a point depending on altitude and type of target (the point is after detection you don't need to hover and engage them from a compromising position)

OR you use troops on the ground! 

How do you think Iran deployed helo's to this location? 





You think they just had a hunch? OR did Iranian troops on the ground relay direct GPS locations to them and request for Air support?

Even in a search pattern from a Helo your helo's can fly at high speeds, detect the location of a target, move to a safe distance & engage on high risk weapon systems from a safe distance before coming in to finish the job! 

The only difference is you can give your self enough cushion to stay out of range of potential AAA and MANPADS

500-600kph is NOT a lot even for a Micro jet engine the rest depends on your thrust to weight ratio, drag,....

You can build a micro jet engine 4-6inches diameter from 10lbf to almost 100lbf and Iran is currently producing ceramic ball brings capable of 100,000 rpm's so the rest is just a matter of how big you wanna make it!

I personally think ~15lb-20lb warhead should be more than sufficient

15lb warhead/15lb propulsion and fuel/ 15lb airframe/15lb optics, com's, electronics, battery,....
That will give you a systems that's about 60-100lb 

As for the altitude the max altitude of an Aphache is what? And yes such a system will have limited altitude but if you can force a helo up to higher altitude they will become easy targets for long range SAM's and at a distance of over 20km from your platform you don't risk your sams accidently hitting your helo's



TheImmortal said:


> Russia and China should just hire @VEVAK and they would dominate the world with his "ideas".



Jababeh ablahan khamoosheest!


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## mohsen

MTN1917 said:


> View attachment 457939


the bottom missile is different from the top one, it has no forward fins, yet has the same great accuracy!

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## skyshadow

MTN1917 said:


> That is probably Labayk-1 guided ballistic missile which was used by Army's Ground Force for the first time in Mohammad Rasul Alah-5 maneuver , it is interesting that it uses IRGC manufactured Zolfaghar TEL.
> 
> This is a worthy addition to IRIGF inventory.
> View attachment 457939




All of your statements are completely correct.



mohsen said:


> the bottom missile is different from the top one, it has no forward fins, yet has the same great accuracy!




The missile in the above image is a Labayk-1 guided missile and you can see the guided Fajr 5 rocket in the photo below.


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## mohsen

skyshadow said:


> The missile in the above image is a Labayk-1 guided missile and you can see the guided Fajr 5 rocket in the photo below.


No, it's not Fajr-5.
Unlike Fajr5, It has no fins on it's nose while has huge fixed fins on the end, and also has a single missile launcher like Zelzal and Nazeat. in fact they showed a missile which it's paint scheme resembed the Nazeat (in the background of the show guy)
Also they showed Fajr 5 launcher which had two different canisters with darker paint.

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow

fajr 5

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 457672
> View attachment 457673
> View attachment 457674
> View attachment 457675
> View attachment 457676
> View attachment 457677
> View attachment 457678
> View attachment 457679
> 
> 
> Iranian guidable rocket
> .
> .
> انتشار تصاویر جدید درباره
> رزمایش_مشترک_محمد_رسول_الله_5
> .
> .
> همانطور که مطلع هستید حدود یک ماه پیش، پنجمین رزمایش مشترک محمد رسول الله توسط ارتش جمهوری اسلامی ایران برگزار شد.
> 
> یکی از موضوعات قابل توجه در آن رزمایش استفاده از راکتهای هدایت شونده و دقیق زن در آن رزمایش بود که بخاطر اطلاع رسانی نامناسب ابهاماتی درباره آن وجود داشت. در تصاویر منتشر شده شده قبلی، راکت فجر-5 سی یا همان موشک فجر-5 مشاهده شده بود. سپس در یکی از مراحل رزمایش خبری تحت عنوان تست راکت هدایت شونده "لبیک-1" نیز منتشر شد از طرف دیگر تصویری از گونه هدایت شونده راکتی منتشر شد که به لحاظ سایز، ظاهرا در کلاس راکتهای نازعات و یا زلزال بود و دقیقا مشخص نشد که راکت لبیک-1 همان زلزال یا نازعات هدایت شونده هست هست یا نه.
> 
> امروز و در یک برنامه تلویزیونی، تصاویر دیگری از این رزمایش منتشر شد که مهمترین نکته آن نمایش لحظه اصابت یک پرتابه دقیق به هدف، و لحظه شلیک راکتی بود که ظاهرا گونه هدایت شونده راکتی در کلاس راکتهای زلزال هست.
> 
> در ویدیوی اول شلیک راکت ذکر شده و صحنه اصابت را از دگ زاویه مختلف مشاهده میکنید. در تصاویر بعدی نیز شلیک و اصابت را مشاهده میکنید.
> 
> در تصویر آخر همان راکتی را مشاهده میکنید که قبلا تصاویر آن منتشر شده بود و احتمال داده میشد که همان راکت لبیک-1 هست.
> 
> موضوع اول اینکه با توجه به رنگ دماغه راکتها، ظاهرا تصاویر مربوط به دو راکت جدا از هم هست، حال اینکه هر دو راکت یک نوع هستند یا متفاوت میباشند، جای سوال دارد، مثلا ممکن هست یکی از راکتها در کلاس نازعات هدایت شونده و دیگری در کلاس زلزال هدایت شونده باشد، ولی با توجه به اطلاع رسانی نامناسب نمیتوان اظهار نظر قطعی داشت.
> 
> موضوع جالب توجه دیگر استفاده از پرتابگر_دوفروندی_ذوالفقار برای شلیک این راکت هدایت شونده میباشد و درواقع اولین بار هست که این پرتابگر وارد سازمان رزم ارتش شده است. پیش از این، این پرتابگر برای شلیک موشکهای خانواده فاتح و راکتهای زلزال در سپاه مشاهده شده بود و بنا به برخی گمانه زنی ها، کامیون استفاده شده در سیستمهای پدافندی خانواده طبس و سوم خرداد، نیروی هوافضای سپاه نیز ریشه مشترکی با این پرتابگر داشته و درواقع دو گونه توسعه یافته از یک محصول، متناسب با وظایف خود هستند.



What could this missile due that a Fateh-110 can't do. This just seems like recycling propoganda. Iran has had these kinds of missiles for years yet parades them like they just got them. Basically a guided Zelzal. So what?


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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> What could this missile due that a Fateh-110 can't do. This just seems like recycling propoganda. Iran has had these kinds of missiles for years yet parades them like they just got them. Basically a guided Zelzal. So what?


Well they have different use . fate is a missile this one is a rocket .
Its has less range ,is a lot cheaper .and a lit lighter , also it increase the accuracy of our MRLS by folds .
Its also part of modernizing ground forces .also the system is far more mobile than Fatih

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## Draco.IMF

curious how many years it will take Iran to have its first hypersonic missile?
or maybe they are testing them already?
Russia unveilded a hypersonic missiles called "Kinzhal" which is allegedly a modified Iskander:


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## sanel1412

Stryker1982 said:


> What could this missile due that a Fateh-110 can't do. This just seems like recycling propoganda. Iran has had these kinds of missiles for years yet parades them like they just got them. Basically a guided Zelzal. So what?


Fateh 110 is missile..those are rokets ...I don't know why most are asking why this..when they had that.....well because for example Iran is buying and producing wepons not only for itself but also for many groups and other countries.they are arming themself,Hezbollah,Iraq,Syria...we can see Iranian weapons every where...that is why they produce so many types of weapons....they need cheap UAVs/UCAVs while in same time they have much advanced...they can't give Sahed 129 to Huties or Hezbolah because in war time they will operate againest advanced enemy and without infrastucture to operate advanced systems that need highly educated staff,pilots,complex radars ...airstrips but heay can give them cheap small UAVs/UCAVs they can operate without complex infrastucture and educated personel....When it comes to missiles there situation is much complex...and while same explanation apply regarding arming diffirent groups and even countries,xthey also need to be able to fool anti balistic/air defense shields and they need to lunch from different positions and angles and at this way they will not only shadowed shields but also avoid detection and fool alghorithms of shields.That is why they have deployed bunch of cheep missiles to Hezbollah but they also need some precision guided rockets ....again missiles are tactical and strategic assests not artilery...rockets are artilery...it can be long range or shor range but it is used as artillery and has different purpose than missiles.There is big difference between 400-800 Km tactical missiles and long range artillery with 40-200Km range ....missiles have also minimal range expecually Fateh 110 class missiles so it is not like you have missile with 400km range...than you can fire to target at 40km ...So there is good reason Iran is deploying so many different types of weapons ....they have huge requirements on different sides....war in Syria,lebanon,Yemen...Iran is gaining influence with weapons mostly....in Iraq when Iraq is almost overruned Iran came in last minute and provide them weapons and aminution...Iraq prime minister said publicly on CNN "Iran provided us weapons and amunition in last minute while US was not responding to our request and that will have consequence on relations.." ..this was in contextor responding to question "Will Iraq now request from Iran and PMU to leave Iraq".....it is not just propaganda,now I'm reading they will also provide training weapons to lebanon Army...now it is not important will this be the case but it shows how relations work...you have to be able to offer something if you want influence..in this region it is weapons mostly

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## Fafnir

Draco.IMF said:


> curious how many years it will take Iran to have its first hypersonic missile?
> or maybe they are testing them already?
> Russia unveilded a hypersonic missiles called "Kinzhal" which is allegedly a modified Iskander:


I wonder if iran could do something similar with a modified air launch capable zolfiqar srbm and the f14 as a carrier/launch aircraft?....hmmm..some interesting possibilities perhaps?

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## VEVAK

Stryker1982 said:


> What could this missile due that a Fateh-110 can't do. This just seems like recycling propoganda. Iran has had these kinds of missiles for years yet parades them like they just got them. Basically a guided Zelzal. So what?



Based on your comment Iran shouldn't try to prefect on current designs! Based on that attitude Iran's Fatteh-110 would still be stuck with a CEP of ~500 meters at max range 

btw standard Zelzal missiles have a CEP of ~1km and earlier versions had a CEP of up to 10km away at max range! Fact is for strike capability the Zelzals aren't even worth the trucks they are mounted on! 

And going from that to this is a major improvement 






And there are still many more upgrades Iran still needs to do!

Fatteh-100 are by the most part for targets between 150-250km away that require ~1000lb payloads

You still need weapon systems to take out targets under that range also if you can increase your accuracy it may be far more preferable to use lighter but more effective payloads.


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## Muhammed45

VEVAK said:


> Based on your comment Iran shouldn't try to prefect on current designs! Based on that attitude Iran's Fatteh-110 would still be stuck with a CEP of ~500 meters at max range
> 
> btw standard Zelzal missiles have a CEP of ~1km and earlier versions had a CEP of up to 10km away at max range! Fact is for strike capability the Zelzals aren't even worth the trucks they are mounted on!
> 
> And going from that to this is a major improvement
> View attachment 458976
> 
> 
> 
> And there are still many more upgrades Iran still needs to do!
> 
> Fatteh-100 are by the most part for targets between 150-250km away that require ~1000lb payloads
> 
> You still need weapon systems to take out targets under that range also if you can increase your accuracy it may be far more preferable to use lighter but more effective payloads.


@PeeD

I can't believe that Zelzal CEP was above 1 Km. We don't invest in such a useless missile in close range class of missiles. I think that our friend thinks, it's the same imported missile from Syria 40 years ago

lol

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## VEVAK

mohammad45 said:


> @PeeD
> 
> I can't believe that Zelzal CEP was above 1 Km. We don't invest in such a useless missile in close range class of missiles. I think that our friend thinks, it's the same imported missile from Syria 40 years ago
> 
> lol



1km sound like a lot yes BUT it really isn't that bad for a rocket artillery







It doesn't necessarily mean you'll hit anything of worth but you can use it to overwhelm a missile defense system at relatively low cost and a bunch of cluster warhead versions fired at a base will cause a lot of destruction + fear & panic!

And there is a reason why Iran also built the Fatteh-110 which was and is to be the main platform for Precision strikes

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## Muhammed45

VEVAK said:


> 1km sound like a lot yes BUT it really isn't that bad for a rocket artillery
> View attachment 458994
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't necessarily mean you'll hit anything of worth but you can use it to overwhelm a missile defense system at relatively low cost and a bunch of cluster warhead versions fired at a base will cause a lot of destruction + fear & panic!
> 
> And there is a reason why Iran also built the Fatteh-110 which was and is to be the main platform for Precision strikes


With this newly designed rocket, precision is high 





Just a simple upgrade is needed

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## Hack-Hook

mohammad45 said:


> @PeeD
> 
> I can't believe that Zelzal CEP was above 1 Km. We don't invest in such a useless missile in close range class of missiles. I think that our friend thinks, it's the same imported missile from Syria 40 years ago
> 
> lol



Well zelzal was a little shitty on that front we made a lot of them in hope to export them and the irony ,nobody was interested in them .I guess even our forces were not that much interested in the missile .
I recall once we fired several dozen of them into mk9 camp and the damage was so insignifant.

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## Muhammed45

Hack-Hook said:


> Well zelzal was a little shitty on that front we made a lot of them in hope to export them and the irony ,nobody was interested in them .I guess even our forces were not that much interested in the missile .
> I recall once we fired several dozen of them into mk9 camp and the damage was so insignifant.


Artesh or sepah?


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## PeeD

Zelzal series are spin stabilisated rockets. Ideal weapons to set industrial and foremost petrochemical area targets under threat.

1km CEP is even optimistic for 200km range rockets.
But fortunately we see the Zelzal-2/-3 arsenal being added with wind correction systems and automatic launch trajectory alignment systems.
In that way CEPs of below 200m looks to be possible. Upgrading a existing arsenal is most cost effective of course.

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## Muhammed45

PeeD said:


> Zelzal series are spin stabilisated rockets. Ideal weapons to set industrial and foremost petrochemical area targets under threat.
> 
> 1km CEP is even optimistic for 200km range rockets.
> But fortunately we see the Zelzal-2/-3 arsenal being added with wind correction systems and automatic launch trajectory alignment systems.
> In that way CEPs of below 200m looks to be possible. Upgrading a existing arsenal is most cost effective of course.


Is it possible to upgrade Zelzal to Fajr standard? Or range is an issue in this?


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## Stryker1982

VEVAK said:


> 1km sound like a lot yes BUT it really isn't that bad for a rocket artillery
> View attachment 458994
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't necessarily mean you'll hit anything of worth but you can use it to overwhelm a missile defense system at relatively low cost and a bunch of cluster warhead versions fired at a base will cause a lot of destruction + fear & panic!
> 
> And there is a reason why Iran also built the Fatteh-110 which was and is to be the main platform for Precision strikes



I agree, cheaper, less accurate cluster munitions, is a good way to distract and force missile defense systems to intercept while the precise missiles go to their critical targets.

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## Hack-Hook

mohammad45 said:


> Artesh or sepah?


To be honest both of them ditch them as soon as they managed to replace them with better upgrade or replacement. For example just several year ago IRGC upgraded the zelzal warhead so instead of carrying one warhead it carry 30 bombleat that each of them was around 17 kg.or they replaced it with fateh missile

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## yavar

*Iran IRGC Weaponry exhibition, Ahvaz city نمايشگاه جنگ افزار هوا فضاي سپاه اهواز ايران*

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## Fafnir

mohammad45 said:


> Is it possible to upgrade Zelzal to Fajr standard? Or range is an issue in this?


There is a pic somewhere in the forum of a zelzal that has been fitted with a fajr or zolfaqar warhead,tho whether this was just a test program or an actual upgrade program I`m afraid that sadly I cant remember.

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## Muhammed45

Fafnir said:


> There is a pic somewhere in the forum of a zelzal that has been fitted with a fajr or zolfaqar warhead,tho whether this was just a test program or an actual upgrade program I`m afraid that sadly I cant remember.


Fateh 110 and it's family is expensive, IMO fajr rocket is the real potent option. Thanks for info

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## VEVAK

Fafnir said:


> There is a pic somewhere in the forum of a zelzal that has been fitted with a fajr or zolfaqar warhead,tho whether this was just a test program or an actual upgrade program I`m afraid that sadly I cant remember.





mohammad45 said:


> Fateh 110 and it's family is expensive, IMO fajr rocket is the real potent option. Thanks for info



I don't think Iran should be producing Zelzals anymore I think they should just stick to producing low cost and high cost version of the Fatteh capable of achieving a CEP as low as 3 meters for high cost precision strike version up to 300 meters for a low cost cluster version 
I think the best way is to use a crude land based positioning system specifically made for your missiles allowing you to do post launch Trajectory corrections + various types of terminal guidance system 

I think every Iranian missile base should have it's own atomic clock and multiple receivers and transmitters within 10km radius of each base

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## Hack-Hook

mohammad45 said:


> Fateh 110 and it's family is expensive, IMO fajr rocket is the real potent option. Thanks for info


Fateh-110 have at least thrice the range of Fajr and its family even have longer range.


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## mohsen

*TREASON*

*آقای روحانی در پاسخ به نامه سرلشکر باقری چه دستوری داد! - آپارات*

کریمی قدوسی :ستادکل نیروهای مسلح گفت بخاطر عدم تخصصی بودجه توسط دولت، تولید موشک متوقف شده است! روحانی می‌گوید نمی‌توانم به دوتا ارتش حقوق بدهم، سپاه باید منحل شود!

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## AmirPatriot

mohsen said:


> *TREASON*
> 
> *آقای روحانی در پاسخ به نامه سرلشکر باقری چه دستوری داد! - آپارات*
> 
> کریمی قدوسی :ستادکل نیروهای مسلح گفت بخاطر عدم تخصصی بودجه توسط دولت، تولید موشک متوقف شده است! روحانی می‌گوید نمی‌توانم به دوتا ارتش حقوق بدهم، سپاه باید منحل شود!





Next headline: Rouhani exchanges Iran's entire armed forces for a big mac.

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## Stryker1982

mohsen said:


> *TREASON*
> 
> *آقای روحانی در پاسخ به نامه سرلشکر باقری چه دستوری داد! - آپارات*
> 
> کریمی قدوسی :ستادکل نیروهای مسلح گفت بخاطر عدم تخصصی بودجه توسط دولت، تولید موشک متوقف شده است! روحانی می‌گوید نمی‌توانم به دوتا ارتش حقوق بدهم، سپاه باید منحل شود!




Doesn't sepah pay for themselves anyways?

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## N_Al40

Stryker1982 said:


> Doesn't sepah pay for themselves anyways?



Was thinking the same thing, but don't forget that they have now been told to rein in their non-military activities.


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## mohsen

Stryker1982 said:


> Doesn't sepah pay for themselves anyways?


It's Propaganda.
Khatam-ol-Anbia's incomes are already seen in IRGC's budget, without mentioning government's debt to it.



AmirPatriot said:


> Next headline: Rouhani exchanges Iran's entire armed forces for a big mac.


as far as I'm aware, Rouhani already sold Iran for lower than that.
Also if this MP was lying, Rouhani wouldn't hesitate a single minute to sue him.

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## Fafnir

VEVAK said:


> I don't think Iran should be producing Zelzals anymore I think they should just stick to producing low cost and high cost version of the Fatteh capable of achieving a CEP as low as 3 meters for high cost precision strike version up to 300 meters for a low cost cluster version
> I think the best way is to use a crude land based positioning system specifically made for your missiles allowing you to do post launch Trajectory corrections + various types of terminal guidance system
> 
> I think every Iranian missile base should have it's own atomic clock and multiple receivers and transmitters within 10km radius of each base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 459526


Iran already unveiled an LPS almost 2 years ago
https://www.islamicinvitationturkey...ns-or-does-not-provide-the-desired-precision/


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## mohsen

Zolfaghar ballistic missile with a message for Zionists:






Official information
Qadr-F ballistic missile:
Minimum range: 500 km
Maximum range: 1948 km
Length: 15.86 m
Diameter: 125 cm
weight:17458 kg
warhead weight: 640kg

Zolfaghar ballistic missile:
Minimum range: 500 km
Maximum range: 700 km
Length: 10.47 m
Diameter: 680 cm
weight:4615 kg
warhead weight: 579 kg

*نمایشگاه دستاوردهای نیروی هوا فضای سپاه در راهیان نور - آپارات*

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## WordsMatter

mohsen said:


> Zolfaghar ballistic missile with a message for Zionists:
> View attachment 460953
> 
> 
> 
> Official information
> Qadr-F ballistic missile:
> Minimum range: 500 km
> Maximum range: 1948 km
> Length: 15.86 m
> Diameter: 125 cm
> weight:17458 kg
> warhead weight: 640kg
> 
> Zolfaghar ballistic missile:
> Minimum range: 500 km
> Maximum range: 700 km
> Length: 10.47 m
> Diameter: 680 cm
> weight:4615 kg
> warhead weight: 579 kg
> 
> *نمایشگاه دستاوردهای نیروی هوا فضای سپاه در راهیان نور - آپارات*


Yeah you wish... Israel is here to stay and there's nothing IRI can or will ever be able to do.


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## mohsen

WordsMatter said:


> Yeah you wish... Israel is here to stay and there's nothing IRI can or will ever be able to do.


Yeah right, that's why Zionist apartheid regime is building walls around itself!

fall of Israel is what even American strategists predict. it's just a matter of time.

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## WordsMatter

mohsen said:


> Yeah right, that's why Zionist apartheid regime is building walls around itself!
> 
> fall of Israel is what even American strategists predict. it's just a matter of time.


I don't dispute the fact that Israel's regime is an apartheid system, but to say it's going to "fall" as IRI says, or wish it, is just a pipe-dream. FYI, countries don't "fall" just because their enemies wish it, pray for it, or make empty slogans for it.


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## mohsen

WordsMatter said:


> I don't dispute the fact that Israel's regime is an apartheid system, but to say it's going to "fall" as IRI says, or wish it, is just a pipe-dream. FYI, countries don't "fall" just because their enemies wish it, pray for it, or make empty slogans for it.


as I said and you preferred to ignore it, it's not a wish from IRI, but an assessment even from the closest ally of Israel, U.S, otherwise what's written on that missile is just an answer to Israelis blabbering.

read these articles, it's not from mullahs in Iran, but American and Zionists themselves:

*Has our expiration date arrived? - Opinion - Israel News | Haaretz.com*https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-has-our-expiration-date-arrived-1.5177965

*No More Israel In 10 Years*


> On September 17, the New York Post quoted Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger saying:
> "In 10 years, there will be no more Israel. I repeat: In 10 years, there will be no more Israel."
> He didn't mean Israel will self-destruct or collapse. His view mirrors the combined assessment of 16 US intelligence agencies. Months earlier, its report headlined "Preparing For A Post Israel Middle East." It wasn’t released publicly so no link.




You may not like mullahs in Iran, but at least understand what is going on in big scale.
unlike what you like to think about mullahs in Iran, when our leader says in 25 years there will be no Israel, it's not a wishful thinking, it's a pure strategic assessment..

A war of influence is going on, George Marshall said it's 30 million Arabs, I say it's one billion Muslims, and in one side there is only Iran, in not far future, Europe will become a Muslim majority continent, believe it or not, Israeli's expiration date is close, it's a choice, who wants to be the winner or the looser.

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## Fafnir

WordsMatter said:


> I don't dispute the fact that Israel's regime is an apartheid system, but to say it's going to "fall" as IRI says, or wish it, is just a pipe-dream. FYI, countries don't "fall" just because their enemies wish it, pray for it, or make empty slogans for it.


If I`d told you in 1981 that in less than a decade both the eastern block and the soviet union would be rotting in histories garbage can would you have believed me?
When the end comes its often very fast and with very little apparent warning.

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## WordsMatter

mohsen said:


> as I said and you preferred to ignore it, it's not a wish from IRI, but an assessment even from the closest ally of Israel, U.S, otherwise what's written on that missile is just an answer to Israelis blabbering.
> 
> read these articles, it's not from mullahs in Iran, but American and Zionists themselves:
> 
> *Has our expiration date arrived? - Opinion - Israel News | Haaretz.com*
> 
> *No More Israel In 10 Years*
> 
> 
> 
> You may not like mullahs in Iran, but at least understand what is going on in big scale.
> unlike what you like to think about mullahs in Iran, when our leader says in 25 years there will be no Israel, it's not a wishful thinking, it's a pure strategic assessment..
> 
> A war of influence is going on, George Marshall said it's 30 million Arabs, I say it's one billion Muslims, and in one side there is only Iran, in not far future, Europe will become a Muslim majority continent, believe it or not, Israeli's expiration date is close, it's a choice, who wants to be the winner or the looser.


You are right; I don't like the mullahs. But my animus is entirely due to the fact of what Iran has become under the mullahs' yolk. Iran is poorer, more isolated, and more insecure. And these are not the hallmarks of good governance, but rather a plutocracy of Agha zadehas, whose only priority is elite survival (don't agree with me then justify the vast embezzlement scandals), where it does not allow for the plurality of opinions. IRI is not a market place of ideas where the best ones emerge as the state's guiding principle(s), but a monocracy whose words are not to be challenged. And no matter how much fake military achievements the IRIGC and its affiliated bodies claim, it does not change the facts on the ground: IRI is in worst economic and geopolitical situation than Israel. You have an array of Arab monarchies, with world class armed forces, itching to take IRI on (and by the way just as a reminder to the Iranians who always belittle and ridicule the Arabs, they were once one of the greatest military, scientific powers on earth), the sole super-power whose bent on regime change, no allies to speak of, etc. Tell me how is it the Mr. Khamenie can "strategically" assess the demise of Israel, but not IRI?



Fafnir said:


> If I`d told you in 1981 that in less than a decade both the eastern block and the soviet union would be rotting in histories garbage can would you have believed me?
> When the end comes its often very fast and with very little apparent warning.


You can't be serious! The west always knew of the weakness of SU, and it was its state managed economy (i think everyone knew that). And once the western powers saw the quagmire that Afghanistan had become, and was draining the vast portion of SU's resources, it was only a matter of time for them to open a second front: the arms race that Ronald Raegan termed as "space wars". I am not sure why you say it was a surprise.


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## Draco.IMF

Any idea? missile facility?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/977238151432495104

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## Ich

Draco.IMF said:


> Any idea? missile facility?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/977238151432495104



I dont know. If im a country with STOL aircrafts, me would put a whole airbase into a mountain and let the birds start and landing out of and into the tunnels. No runway outside.

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## Fafnir

WordsMatter said:


> You are right; I don't like the mullahs. But my animus is entirely due to the fact of what Iran has become under the mullahs' yolk. Iran is poorer, more isolated, and more insecure. And these are not the hallmarks of good governance, but rather a plutocracy of Agha zadehas, whose only priority is elite survival (don't agree with me then justify the vast embezzlement scandals), where it does not allow for the plurality of opinions. IRI is not a market place of ideas where the best ones emerge as the state's guiding principle(s), but a monocracy whose words are not to be challenged. And no matter how much fake military achievements the IRIGC and its affiliated bodies claim, it does not change the facts on the ground: IRI is in worst economic and geopolitical situation than Israel. You have an array of Arab monarchies, with world class armed forces, itching to take IRI on (and by the way just as a reminder to the Iranians who always belittle and ridicule the Arabs, they were once one of the greatest military, scientific powers on earth), the sole super-power whose bent on regime change, no allies to speak of, etc. Tell me how is it the Mr. Khamenie can "strategically" assess the demise of Israel, but not IRI?
> 
> 
> You can't be serious! The west always knew of the weakness of SU, and it was its state managed economy (i think everyone knew that). And once the western powers saw the quagmire that Afghanistan had become, and was draining the vast portion of SU's resources, it was only a matter of time for them to open a second front: the arms race that Ronald Raegan termed as "space wars". I am not sure why you say it was a surprise.



Oh good grief,not this sad old neocon "cunning plan" wet dream fantasy for the gullible trotted out as "historical fact" yet again.
You`re clearly getting your histories mixed up,you`re confusing the early 80s/end of brezhnev /height of the cold war era with the the late 80s/mid gorbachev/glasnost/perestroika/winding down of the cold war era,and believe me no one back at the beginning of the 80s saw the soviets as weak,far from it in fact just ask ronny reagan and marge thatcher,indeed if I had said at that time that in another 10 years the ussr/warsaw pact would be no more it would have been little different to saying the us and nato would be no more.
The collapse of the eastern block and later the soviet union was no more the result of some cunning western plan of economic warfare and neither was it simply inevitable either,in fact both were completely unanticipated by the intelligence services in the west and came as a huge surprise in part simply because of how little warning there was that it was happening.
The collapse of the soviet union and the eastern block was as a result of internal pressures and dynamics and altho external pressures no doubt played a role they were not the main cause,indeed if gorbachev had instead instituted a policy of economic liberalization first like the prc did instead of political liberalization then its even quite possible that the soviets might`ve still been around today.


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## WordsMatter

Fafnir said:


> Oh good grief,not this sad old neocon "cunning plan" wet dream fantasy for the gullible trotted out as "historical fact" yet again.
> You`re clearly getting your histories mixed up,you`re confusing the early 80s/end of brezhnev /height of the cold war era with the the late 80s/mid gorbachev/glasnost/perestroika/winding down of the cold war era,and believe me no one back at the beginning of the 80s saw the soviets as weak,far from it in fact just ask ronny reagan and marge thatcher,indeed if I had said at that time that in another 10 years the ussr/warsaw pact would be no more it would have been little different to saying the us and nato would be no more.
> The collapse of the eastern block and later the soviet union was no more the result of some cunning western plan of economic warfare and neither was it simply inevitable either,in fact both were completely unanticipated by the intelligence services in the west and came as a huge surprise in part simply because of how little warning there was that it was happening.
> The collapse of the soviet union and the eastern block was as a result of internal pressures and dynamics and altho external pressures no doubt played a role they were not the main cause,indeed if gorbachev had instead instituted a policy of economic liberalization first like the prc did instead of political liberalization then its even quite possible that the soviets might`ve still been around today.


"gullible trotted"? Really? And you are the intellectual powerhouse who has seen the "light", or the darkness, of the neo-conservatives' ideology?! For someone who actually advocates vetting of political candidates, I am surprised you are not lumping yourself with the neo-cons. 
So your position is Israel will cease to exist? Justify that position. What is it about Israel that makes you believe that it will self-destruct?


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## Ich

WordsMatter said:


> "gullible trotted"? Really? And you are the intellectual powerhouse who has seen the "light", or the darkness, of the neo-conservatives' ideology?! For someone who actually advocates vetting of political candidates, I am surprised you are not lumping yourself with the neo-cons.
> So your position is Israel will cease to exist? Justify that position. What is it about Israel that makes you believe that it will self-destruct?



Me think it is the same process as it is with the USA.

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## Stryker1982

With Bolton in the white house, Iran would be a fool to not prepare for war. 
The best way to prevent war is to prepare for it.

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## Kastor

Stryker1982 said:


> With Bolton in the white house, Iran would be a fool to not prepare for war.
> The best way to prevent war is to prepare for it.


Iran preparing for war is a good thing, but let's be honest we can only hope to give them a bloody nose at best on the way out after they've done us major damage. The way you can hurt the west is to concentrate on disrupting the flow of oil from the Strait of Hormuz. Oil will pop up to 150 USD per barrel, the stock market will fall 5000-7000 points, this will render the trillion dollar tax break in the U.S. worthless.....that's how you fight a superpower not by trying to take them out in a hot war.

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## Stryker1982

Kastor said:


> Iran preparing for war is a good thing, but let's be honest we can only hope to give them a bloody nose at best on the way out after they've done us major damage. The way you can hurt the west is to concentrate on disrupting the flow of oil from the Strait of Hormuz. Oil will pop up to 150 USD per barrel, the stock market will fall 5000-7000 points, this will render the trillion dollar tax break in the U.S. worthless.....that's how you fight a superpower not by trying to take them out in a hot war.



Well I didn't say Iran would be victorious, but with ample preparation, technological sophistication in certain tech sectors, Iran can give the U.S a bloody nose in a short term hot war. Enough to deter the U.S from any direct action.

At least in my opinion, for example; Iran should be mass producing zolfiqar missiles (if they haven't already). A capability, resiliency, and preparedness for Iran's missile forces to be able to strike any area with dozens of missiles at a moments notice is high deterrence power. Similar to how the U.S can launch high salvos of cruise missiles in quick succession, Iran should be prepared to do the same with high resiliency from preemptive attack.

It takes roughly two minutes for a missile for southern Iran to reach dubai. A capability for Iran to vaporize U.S bases near the persian gulf within 10 minutes of a first strike is high deterrence power will give second thoughts to any attacker. Even with the U.S's wealth, production, and technology. It doesn't suddenly nullify Iran countries technological progress, or lethal capability either.

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## N_Al40

Kastor said:


> Iran preparing for war is a good thing, but let's be honest we can only hope to give them a bloody nose at best on the way out after they've done us major damage. The way you can hurt the west is to concentrate on disrupting the flow of oil from the Strait of Hormuz. Oil will pop up to 150 USD per barrel, the stock market will fall 5000-7000 points, this will render the trillion dollar tax break in the U.S. worthless.....that's how you fight a superpower not by trying to take them out in a hot war.



I feel you're being slightly pessimistic about the damage Iran could do in a war.

The only shot Iran has at actually winning (regardless of how slim the chances are) in a hot war, is if launches a full-scale surprise attack (Pearl Harbor Style) against the US 5th Fleet via AshBMs, fast attack craft, BMs, and via its mines. This happens while Iranian BMs rain upon every US military installation surrounding Iran. This would immediately deny the US of its two greatest strengths during any modern war its been in: Its Air Force & Cruise Missiles. This is the EXACT scenario played out in the infamous Millennium War Game 2000. So I'd give some credit to the Iranian armed forces bro.

However, the chances of Iran winning if it was hit first by the US, is almost none; though the damage could be significantly reduced depending on the preparation of the Iranian Armed Forces. Iran would certainly cause damage, make no mistake, more than what you describe as a bloody nose. Despite all of the US' resources, 120,000+ Ballistic Missiles raining upon their bases and possibly their fleet can't be stopped. The loss of life on the US side would be catastrophic; don't take it from me, read what current & former US Commanders and Generals have said about the result of a war with Iran. Some have written long and detail rich articles outlining what could possibly happen. 

Also, it's worth noting that Iran has been preparing for a possible war against the US for about 40 years. In addition, they have closely observed US Strategy & Tactics in the 1st and 2nd Persian Gulf Wars and in the US invasion of Afghanistan. Suffice to say they would know what's heading their way and have devised suitable plans to counteract such.

Closing statements, no matter what the outcome of a war with the US is, Iran will survive. Dare say the IRI might even be strengthened.


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## Stryker1982

N_Al40 said:


> I feel you're being slightly pessimistic about the damage Iran could do in a war.
> 
> The only shot Iran has at actually winning (regardless of how slim the chances are) in a hot war, is if launches a full-scale surprise attack (Pearl Harbor Style) against the US 5th Fleet via AshBMs, fast attack craft, BMs, and via its mines. This happens while Iranian BMs rain upon every US military installation surrounding Iran. This would immediately deny the US of its two greatest strengths during any modern war its been in: Its Air Force & Cruise Missiles. This is the EXACT scenario played out in the infamous Millennium War Game 2000. So I'd give some credit to the Iranian armed forces bro.
> 
> However, the chances of Iran winning if it was hit first by the US, is almost none; though the damage could be significantly reduced depending on the preparation of the Iranian Armed Forces. Iran would certainly cause damage, make no mistake, more than what you describe as a bloody nose. Despite all of the US' resources, 120,000+ Ballistic Missiles raining upon their bases and possibly their fleet can't be stopped. The loss of life on the US side would be catastrophic; don't take it from me, read what current & former US Commanders and Generals have said about the result of a war with Iran. Some have written long and detail rich articles outlining what could possibly happen.
> 
> Also, it's worth noting that Iran has been preparing for a possible war against the US for about 40 years. In addition, they have closely observed US Strategy & Tactics in the 1st and 2nd Persian Gulf Wars and in the US invasion of Afghanistan. Suffice to say they would know what's heading their way and have devised suitable plans to counteract such.
> 
> Closing statements, no matter what the outcome of a war with the US is, Iran will survive. Dare say the IRI might even be strengthened.



Every thing you say is logical and possible, but Iran doesn't have 120,000 ballistic missiles.

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## N_Al40

Stryker1982 said:


> Every thing you say is logical and possible, but Iran doesn't have 120,000 ballistic missiles.



Thanks bro!! I'm by no means in the slightest a military guru or anything of the sort, I just pulled together this conclusion based on what I've read and using basic facts and simple logic e.g: (BMs destroy Al-Udeid Airbase = No jets to fly + no communication center = no way of striking Iran).

The last figure of 120,000 was Collin Powell's estimate in a leaked E-Mail regarding Iranian BMs targeted at Israel. Can't confirm or deny. But then again bro, Hezbollah has 150,000 precision guided missiles (most of them Zolfaqhar).

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## TheImmortal

N_Al40 said:


> Thanks bro!! I'm by no means in the slightest a military guru or anything of the sort, I just pulled together this conclusion based on what I've read and using basic facts and simple logic e.g: (BMs destroy Al-Udeid Airbase = No jets to fly + no communication center = no way of striking Iran).
> 
> The last figure of 120,000 was Collin Powell's estimate in a leaked E-Mail regarding Iranian BMs targeted at Israel. Can't confirm or deny. But then again bro, Hezbollah has 150,000 precision guided missiles (most of them Zolfaqhar).



Lol hezbollah doesn’t have 150,000 precision guided missiles. They have 100,000 rockets. Big difference.


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## Muhammed45

TheImmortal said:


> Lol hezbollah doesn’t have 150,000 precision guided missiles. They have 100,000 rockets. Big difference.


For Hezbollah being guided or unguided makes little difference. 

They fire them from Lebanese heights, into israeli cities, most of them lands in there . They have a variant of fateh 110 missiles supplied by Syria, called M-600 
Also a few numbers of Scud-D is seen in their arsenal. Nearly 5000 of them are guided and mid range which can cover whole Israel lands.


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## skyshadow



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## yavar



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## Draco.IMF

Troll Babak again forgot his daily medicine


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/995334016776785921
as if Iran relies on North Korea regarding missiles technology
Iran many years ago surpassed them..


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## skyshadow

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/world/middleeast/iran-missiles.html

It is possible that the facility is developing only medium-range missiles, which Iran already possesses, or perhaps an unusually sophisticated space program.

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## PeeD

Great, so they are actively testing a 70-90 ton solid fuel booster, sufficient for a ICBM. Sounds like the second stage of Shahid Terhrani Moghaddams SLV/ICBM... 5 years after the accident.

I recently saw a wall paining of him at the Kaj square in Tehran... great painting of this Pahlevan e Iranzamin.

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## mohsen

> The researchers say Shahrud’s 2017 test used a stand estimated to be 370 tons, suggesting the engine powered between 62 and 93 tons of thrust — enough for an intercontinental ballistic missile. Two as-yet-unused test stands are even larger.

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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/world/middleeast/iran-missiles.html
> 
> It is possible that the facility is developing only medium-range missiles, which Iran already possesses, or perhaps an unusually sophisticated space program.


Don't get something . the article says they test missile engine under the cover of nights to hide it.
Honestly you test missile engine at night if you want to show it to martian.



PeeD said:


> Great, so they are actively testing a 70-90 ton solid fuel booster, sufficient for a ICBM. Sounds like the second stage of Shahid Terhrani Moghaddams SLV/ICBM... 5 years after the accident.
> 
> I recently saw a wall paining of him at the Kaj square in Tehran... great painting of this Pahlevan e Iranzamin.


That painting is old and and need some serious maintenance.

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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> Don't get something . the article says they test missile engine under the cover of nights to hide it.
> Honestly you test missile engine at night if you want to show it to martian.
> 
> 
> That painting is old and and need some serious maintenance.



I agree with you, especially the temperature difference of more than a thousand degrees generated by the rocket engine can easily be seen by the satellite thermal sensors.

the main question for me is why did it take them more than 7 years to find this site?


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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> I agree with you, especially the temperature difference of more than a thousand degrees generated by the rocket engine can easily be seen by the satellite thermal sensors.
> 
> the main question for me is why did it take them more than 7 years to find this site?


I think the more interesting thing is the timing. Now that United States pulls out of the deal all of sudden all sorts of intelligence breaks out regarding Iran's missiles and nuclear activities

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## yavar



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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> I agree with you, especially the temperature difference of more than a thousand degrees generated by the rocket engine can easily be seen by the satellite thermal sensors.
> 
> the main question for me is why did it take them more than 7 years to find this site?



It didn’t take 7 years to find this site, it took 7 years for a CIVILIAN academic researcher to find this site. You don’t know how long foreign intelligence agencies knew about it.


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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> It didn’t take 7 years to find this site, it took 7 years for a CIVILIAN academic researcher to find this site. You don’t know how long foreign intelligence agencies knew about it.



I understand what you mean, but if the government of the US or Israel found this site earlier, do not you think that they would tell it to everyone?

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> I understand what you mean, but if the government of the US or Israel found this site earlier, do not you think that they would tell it to everyone?



Why would they do that? Instead they would monitor the site to see how their adversary is progressing in ICBM technology.A foreign intelligence agency purpose is to gather intelligence.

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## PeeD

Pretty much everyone interested in the Iranian missile program knows about the Shahrud facility since 2013 or 14.

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> Pretty much everyone interested in the Iranian missile program knows about the Shahrud facility since 2013 or 14.



I think the recent talk is about the increased activity and new facilities at Shahrud.


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## Websorber

*IRGC: Talks on Iran's Missile Power Impossible*
Site: Farsnews

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## skyshadow

*Cookies*


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IISS Voices

Home
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IISS Voices 2018
February
Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable?
*Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable?*
Iran has the largest and most diverse ballistic-missile arsenal in the Middle East – could these systems one day be used to launch nuclear weapons? In a new report, IISS analysts Michael Elleman and Mark Fitzpatrick offer a detailed assessment of the design intentions behind each missile within Iran’s inventory. The result is a clear picture as to which platforms the United States and its allies should seek to remove, and which ones can be discounted.

IRAN
NON-PROLIFERATION
NUCLEAR
DETERRENCE
ARMS CONTROL AND DISARMAMENT
NON-PROLIFERATION AND NUCLEAR POLICY

*Date:* 28 February 2018





*Read the new report: 'Assessing whether Iran’s ballistic missiles are designed to be nuclear-capable'*

*By Michael Elleman, Senior Fellow for Missile Defence, and Mark Fitzpatrick, Executive Director, IISS–Americas*

The common claim that Iran’s missile development must be stopped altogether because these systems could deliver nuclear weapons in the future rests on broad generalisations. While there is reason for concern, priority attention should be given to those missiles that might realistically be used for such a purpose, if Iran were to go down a perilous nuclear path.

The international standard – but not treaty – for determining the inherent nuclear capability of missiles is the threshold developed in 1987 by the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), which seeks to forestall exports of missile systems able to deliver a 500kg payload a distance of 300km or more. Eight of Iran’s 13 current ballistic missile systems – the largest and most diverse arsenal in the Middle East – exceed this threshold and are thus deemed to be nuclear capable. The other five, all within the _Fateh_-110 family of missiles, are certainly lethal, especially when shipped to Hizbullah for use against Israel, but they are clearly not intended for nuclear use.

Because capability does not equal intent, the MTCR guidelines should be just the first step in an assessment of Iran’s intentions for its missiles. When the United Nations Security Council drafted a new resolution in July 2015 to accompany the Iran nuclear agreement finalised that month, an element of intent was added to previous sanctions resolution language that prohibited launches of Iranian missiles that were ‘capable of delivering nuclear weapons’. The 2015 resolution calls upon Iran not to engage in activity concerning missiles ‘designed to be’ capable of delivering nuclear weapons. 

What it means ‘to be designed’ is undefined. Judging intent is partly subjective, but technical clues and intelligence information can guide analysis. The soundest approach is to disaggregate Iran’s various missile systems, and to assess design intentions on the basis of the technical capabilities and lineage of the different missiles.

*Assessing design intentions*
We note that two of Iran’s short-range missiles – the _Shahab_-1 and _Shahab_-2 – are based on Soviet export-model _Scud_-Bs and -Cs that were designed to carry conventional weapons. These systems exceed the MTCR threshold and are thus inherently capable of carrying nuclear weapons. It would be incorrect to claim, however, that they were designed for this role. Iran’s reason for first acquiring these systems in the mid-1980s – to retaliate against Iraq’s missile attacks against Iranian cities – underscores their purpose in delivering conventional warheads. 

At the other end of the scale in terms of intent, there is strong evidence that Iran’s _Ghadr _system was indeed designed with a nuclear payload in mind. As has been well reported, the schematics on a computer hard drive turned over by a defector in 2004 demonstrate efforts to redesign the re-entry vehicle of the _Shahab_-3 to accommodate what appears to be a nuclear implosion weapon. The solid-fuelled _Sajjil_-2 and the liquid-fuelled _Qiam_ have the same baby-bottle shaped nosecone and can thus were also presumptively designed for nuclear-weapons delivery. The case for the _Qiam_, however, is less clear, because it appeared several years after the tell-tale intelligence surfaced.

A conclusion that the _Ghadr _was designed for nuclear-weapons delivery is also supported by its North Korean _Nodong_ origin. The _Shahab_-3, which is the name that Iran gave to the _Nodong_s it imported, also appears to have been designed for nuclear weapons. It is not entirely clear whether _Nodong_s originated in North Korea or the Soviet Union, but in either case they were developed to deliver nuclear weapons. Iran’s _Emad_ missile is a 2015 variant of the _Ghadr, _and thus by its lineage was arguably designed for nuclear weapons. It has a different nosecone, however.

Iran’s medium-range _Khorramshahr_ missile is harder to judge, because of the dearth of good information and successful test launches. It appears to be derived from North Korea’s _Musudan_, which employs technology and hardware originally designed for the Soviet Union’s R-27 submarine-launched ballistic missile. Both the Soviets and North Korea designed the R-27 and _Musudan_, respectively, to carry a nuclear weapon. We, therefore, tentatively judge the Iranian versions of this missile to be designed for nuclear-weapons delivery.

In addition to its ballistic missiles, Iran has developed two space-launch vehicles, the _Safir_ and _Simorgh_. Both carrier rockets are optimised for launching satellites, and are not well suited to perform as a ballistic missile. Neither rocket has been tested as a ballistic missile and would require modifications for such a use. It is, therefore, hard to make the case that the _Safir_ and _Simorgh_ are designed to be capable of nuclear-weapons delivery. To the contrary, they were designed and configured to be satellite launch vehicles. It should be noted that no country has converted a satellite-launch vehicle into a long-range ballistic missile.

*Focus on medium-range systems*
In light of the central role that ballistic missiles play in Iran’s defence and deterrence posture, especially given its antiquated and inferior air force, it is inconceivable that Tehran would voluntarily agree to surrender them entirely. The United States and its allies should give greatest priority to curtailing Iran’s medium-range systems that most clearly were designed to deliver nuclear weapons, and be prepared to accept missiles that clearly were not, including both the short-range system and space-launch vehicles.

*For the full analysis, read 'Assessing whether Iran’s ballistic missiles are designed to be nuclear-capable' by Michael Elleman and Mark Fitzpatrickhttps://www.iiss.org/-/media//docum...rans ballistic missiles iiss report.pdf?la=en*


 BACK TO CONTENT LIST

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NextPutin’s new big nuclear buttons
*VOICES HOMEPAGE*
*IISS Voices *
The IISS Voices blog features timely comment and analysis on international affairs and security from IISS experts and guest writers.


----------



## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> *Cookies*
> 
> 
> This website uses cookies; in accordance with EU law descriptions of each cookie are provided.
> 
> 
> 
> Find out more
> 
> ACCEPT
> 
> 
> 
> MENU ☰
> IISS Voices
> 
> Home
> IISS Voices
> Voices Archive
> IISS Voices 2018
> February
> Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable?
> *Are Iran’s ballistic missiles designed to be nuclear capable?*
> Iran has the largest and most diverse ballistic-missile arsenal in the Middle East – could these systems one day be used to launch nuclear weapons? In a new report, IISS analysts Michael Elleman and Mark Fitzpatrick offer a detailed assessment of the design intentions behind each missile within Iran’s inventory. The result is a clear picture as to which platforms the United States and its allies should seek to remove, and which ones can be discounted.
> 
> IRAN
> NON-PROLIFERATION
> NUCLEAR
> DETERRENCE
> ARMS CONTROL AND DISARMAMENT
> NON-PROLIFERATION AND NUCLEAR POLICY
> 
> *Date:* 28 February 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Read the new report: 'Assessing whether Iran’s ballistic missiles are designed to be nuclear-capable'*
> 
> *By Michael Elleman, Senior Fellow for Missile Defence, and Mark Fitzpatrick, Executive Director, IISS–Americas*
> 
> The common claim that Iran’s missile development must be stopped altogether because these systems could deliver nuclear weapons in the future rests on broad generalisations. While there is reason for concern, priority attention should be given to those missiles that might realistically be used for such a purpose, if Iran were to go down a perilous nuclear path.
> 
> The international standard – but not treaty – for determining the inherent nuclear capability of missiles is the threshold developed in 1987 by the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), which seeks to forestall exports of missile systems able to deliver a 500kg payload a distance of 300km or more. Eight of Iran’s 13 current ballistic missile systems – the largest and most diverse arsenal in the Middle East – exceed this threshold and are thus deemed to be nuclear capable. The other five, all within the _Fateh_-110 family of missiles, are certainly lethal, especially when shipped to Hizbullah for use against Israel, but they are clearly not intended for nuclear use.
> 
> Because capability does not equal intent, the MTCR guidelines should be just the first step in an assessment of Iran’s intentions for its missiles. When the United Nations Security Council drafted a new resolution in July 2015 to accompany the Iran nuclear agreement finalised that month, an element of intent was added to previous sanctions resolution language that prohibited launches of Iranian missiles that were ‘capable of delivering nuclear weapons’. The 2015 resolution calls upon Iran not to engage in activity concerning missiles ‘designed to be’ capable of delivering nuclear weapons.
> 
> What it means ‘to be designed’ is undefined. Judging intent is partly subjective, but technical clues and intelligence information can guide analysis. The soundest approach is to disaggregate Iran’s various missile systems, and to assess design intentions on the basis of the technical capabilities and lineage of the different missiles.
> 
> *Assessing design intentions*
> We note that two of Iran’s short-range missiles – the _Shahab_-1 and _Shahab_-2 – are based on Soviet export-model _Scud_-Bs and -Cs that were designed to carry conventional weapons. These systems exceed the MTCR threshold and are thus inherently capable of carrying nuclear weapons. It would be incorrect to claim, however, that they were designed for this role. Iran’s reason for first acquiring these systems in the mid-1980s – to retaliate against Iraq’s missile attacks against Iranian cities – underscores their purpose in delivering conventional warheads.
> 
> At the other end of the scale in terms of intent, there is strong evidence that Iran’s _Ghadr _system was indeed designed with a nuclear payload in mind. As has been well reported, the schematics on a computer hard drive turned over by a defector in 2004 demonstrate efforts to redesign the re-entry vehicle of the _Shahab_-3 to accommodate what appears to be a nuclear implosion weapon. The solid-fuelled _Sajjil_-2 and the liquid-fuelled _Qiam_ have the same baby-bottle shaped nosecone and can thus were also presumptively designed for nuclear-weapons delivery. The case for the _Qiam_, however, is less clear, because it appeared several years after the tell-tale intelligence surfaced.
> 
> A conclusion that the _Ghadr _was designed for nuclear-weapons delivery is also supported by its North Korean _Nodong_ origin. The _Shahab_-3, which is the name that Iran gave to the _Nodong_s it imported, also appears to have been designed for nuclear weapons. It is not entirely clear whether _Nodong_s originated in North Korea or the Soviet Union, but in either case they were developed to deliver nuclear weapons. Iran’s _Emad_ missile is a 2015 variant of the _Ghadr, _and thus by its lineage was arguably designed for nuclear weapons. It has a different nosecone, however.
> 
> Iran’s medium-range _Khorramshahr_ missile is harder to judge, because of the dearth of good information and successful test launches. It appears to be derived from North Korea’s _Musudan_, which employs technology and hardware originally designed for the Soviet Union’s R-27 submarine-launched ballistic missile. Both the Soviets and North Korea designed the R-27 and _Musudan_, respectively, to carry a nuclear weapon. We, therefore, tentatively judge the Iranian versions of this missile to be designed for nuclear-weapons delivery.
> 
> In addition to its ballistic missiles, Iran has developed two space-launch vehicles, the _Safir_ and _Simorgh_. Both carrier rockets are optimised for launching satellites, and are not well suited to perform as a ballistic missile. Neither rocket has been tested as a ballistic missile and would require modifications for such a use. It is, therefore, hard to make the case that the _Safir_ and _Simorgh_ are designed to be capable of nuclear-weapons delivery. To the contrary, they were designed and configured to be satellite launch vehicles. It should be noted that no country has converted a satellite-launch vehicle into a long-range ballistic missile.
> 
> *Focus on medium-range systems*
> In light of the central role that ballistic missiles play in Iran’s defence and deterrence posture, especially given its antiquated and inferior air force, it is inconceivable that Tehran would voluntarily agree to surrender them entirely. The United States and its allies should give greatest priority to curtailing Iran’s medium-range systems that most clearly were designed to deliver nuclear weapons, and be prepared to accept missiles that clearly were not, including both the short-range system and space-launch vehicles.
> 
> *For the full analysis, read 'Assessing whether Iran’s ballistic missiles are designed to be nuclear-capable' by Michael Elleman and Mark Fitzpatrick*
> 
> 
> BACK TO CONTENT LIST
> 
> PreviousTensions escalate in Ethiopia
> NextPutin’s new big nuclear buttons
> *VOICES HOMEPAGE*
> *IISS Voices *
> The IISS Voices blog features timely comment and analysis on international affairs and security from IISS experts and guest writers.


again that nonsense article from several month ago that say any Iran missile that can reach Israel is designed to carry the nuclear warhead .
also the same drunk person that claim the newer baby bottle warhead design of the Iran missile was to carry a nuke while in reality it was to reduce CEP which is a sign that the missile was designed for conventional warhead .

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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> again that nonsense article from several month ago that say any Iran missile that can reach Israel is designed to carry the nuclear warhead .
> also the same drunk person that claim the newer baby bottle warhead design of the Iran missile was to carry a nuke while in reality it was to reduce CEP which is a sign that the missile was designed for conventional warhead .



The only thing these people are experts in is Propaganda! It's all nonsense! If the U.S. was capable of fitting a nuke inside an artillery even before the computer age than almost any Iranian delivery system with a +600lb payload can be categorized as a delivery system capable of carrying nukes! 

And it's utterly retarded to claim that the nose cone design of a missiles has anything to do with the missile capability to carry nuclear weapons 

And if putting Emad shaped or khorramshar shaped nose cone designs was all that was needed to get them to back off of Iran's BM program than I'm sure Iran would be more than happy to comply to such absurd request but we all know that's hogwash!

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## skyshadow



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## azbaroj

Can any one tell me , if Iran attacked by Israelis , in response , Iran will able to deliver how many missiles to Israel ? And how much damage Israel will suffer ?


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## VEVAK

azbaroj said:


> Can any one tell me , if Iran attacked by Israelis , in response , Iran will able to deliver how many missiles to Israel ? And how much damage Israel will suffer ?



Iran's BM program is classified in such a way that even Iranian Presidents can't answer that question!

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## mohsen

"Salesman 2" documentary about treasons of Rouhani and Reformists, story of firing not only nuclear scientists, but even missile scientists!
https://www.aparat.com/result/مستند_فروشنده_2

God damn all traitors!

I suggest to financially support those who exposed Rouhani's treasons:
http://www.ammaryar.ir/product/فروشنده-2/

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> "Salesman 2" documentary about treasons of Rouhani and Reformists, story of firing not only nuclear scientists, but even missile scientists!
> https://www.aparat.com/result/مستند_فروشنده_2
> 
> God damn all traitors!
> 
> I suggest to financially support those who exposed Rouhani's treasons:
> http://www.ammaryar.ir/product/فروشنده-2/




Lol Rouhani has become to conservatives as Obama was for Republicans.

Rouhani is being blamed for everything, next thing we know Rouhani will blamed for Iran being in the Middle East and not in Europe.

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## mohsen

TheImmortal said:


> Lol Rouhani has become to conservatives as Obama was for Republicans.
> 
> Rouhani is being blamed for everything, next thing we know Rouhani will blamed for Iran being in the Middle East and not in Europe.


Yeah, he is totally innocent!
I was the one who wanted to stop Iran's missile program through JCPOA2,3,...
I was the one criticizing missile program to provoke society against their production!
I was the one reduced military budget to the extent the missile production completely stopped!
I was the one suspended Iran's space program!
I was the one suspended Iran's nuclear energy program!
I was the one who fired scientists!

I did all of that, Rouhani was just the president, what a biased person I am!

If there was a single lie in that documentary, now government was hanging it's producers!

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## Kastor

TheImmortal said:


> Lol Rouhani has become to conservatives as Obama was for Republicans.
> 
> Rouhani is being blamed for everything, next thing we know Rouhani will blamed for Iran being in the Middle East and not in Europe.


Exactly, this is our Iran....the people who broke your fine china are blaming you for not picking the pieces quick enough.

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> Yeah, he is totally innocent!
> I was the one who wanted to stop Iran's missile program through JCPOA2,3,...
> I was the one criticizing missile program to provoke society against their production!
> I was the one reduced military budget to the extent the missile production completely stopped!
> I was the one suspended Iran's space program!
> I was the one suspended Iran's nuclear energy program!
> I was the one who fired scientists!
> 
> I did all of that, Rouhani was just the president, what a biased person I am!
> 
> If there was a single lie in that documentary, now government was hanging it's producers!



You are a naive sheep.

Iran’s power structure is not a one man dictatorship like Russia, China, or even executive branch directed like the US. It is very factured with many different players.

So this notion that Rouhani can make major changes is a joke. If that were true he could also make himself Supreme Leader!

The reality is if BIG changes happen like you say, it rarely happens without the consent from most of the MAJOR powerbrokers in Iran.

So it’s not Rouhani doing this, it’s the Iranian leadership that is doing it. The good or bad will get blamed on Rouhani wether he likes it or not.

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## skyshadow

https://www.farsnews.com/news/13970501000508/خط-تولید-موشک-هوا-به-هوای-فکور-افتتاح-شد

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## Hack-Hook

Old Missile new paint job


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## skyshadow

*اعتراف سپاه به داشتن موشک کروز هوا به زمین نقطه زن با برد 1500 کیلومتر

آینده‌ای نزدیک سامانه‌ موشک‌های هوا به زمین کروز نقطه زن با برد هزار و ۵۰۰ کیلومتر روی این جنگنده بمب افکن‌ها نصب خواهد شد.*
*
http://www.sarpoosh.com/politics/defense-news/defense-news970500874.html*


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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> *اعتراف سپاه به داشتن موشک کروز هوا به زمین نقطه زن با برد 1500 کیلومتر
> 
> آینده‌ای نزدیک سامانه‌ موشک‌های هوا به زمین کروز نقطه زن با برد هزار و ۵۰۰ کیلومتر روی این جنگنده بمب افکن‌ها نصب خواهد شد.
> 
> http://www.sarpoosh.com/politics/defense-news/defense-news970500874.html*



Unless you have larger bombers that can at least launch 4 or more of them from +1000km outside Iranian Airspace then the cost vs benefit analysis of such a weapons wouldn't make much sense! 

Yes Iran should be producing Air Lunched cruise missiles with ranges of 100km, 250km & 500km specifically made to target Air Defense's, Ships, Ports, Bunkers & Command Centers + cluster warhead version but anything beyond that for a fighter jet just doesn't make much sense!!

With the amount of money Iran would have to pay to fuel and maintain a fighter to simply to launch 1 or 2 1500km LACM Iran could simply add that cost to the production of a ground launched cruise missile with a range of +2000km

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## Draco.IMF

Interesting stuff, curious about range/guidance/CEP

Syrian 302 mm caliber rocket launcher shown for the first time, missile is called "Alrajma"







Mr. Asbar, a syrian rocket scientist was murdered, allegedly by Mossad, may he rest in peace
I hope he could pass his knowledge to many other talented syrian scientists.
Payback will come, sooner or later

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/...an-rocket-scientist-mossad-assassination.html


Some more infos about Mr Asbar from the source:
"
Mr. Asbar was also working on a solid-fuel plant for missiles and rockets, a safer alternative to liquid fuel.
Mr. Asbar was primarily engaged in adapting Syria’s arsenal of low-technology rockets to make them capable of striking long-range targets with far greater accuracy
"
​

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## Hack-Hook

Draco.IMF said:


> Interesting stuff, curious about range/guidance/CEP
> 
> Syrian 302 mm caliber rocket launcher shown for the first time, missile is called "Alrajma"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Asbar, a syrian rocket scientist was murdered, allegedly by Mossad, may he rest in peace
> I hope he could pass his knowledge to many other talented syrian scientists.
> Payback will come, sooner or later
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/...an-rocket-scientist-mossad-assassination.html
> 
> 
> Some more infos about Mr Asbar from the source:
> "
> Mr. Asbar was also working on a solid-fuel plant for missiles and rockets, a safer alternative to liquid fuel.
> Mr. Asbar was primarily engaged in adapting Syria’s arsenal of low-technology rockets to make them capable of striking long-range targets with far greater accuracy
> "
> ​


Nothing to do with Iran if you ask about it in Arab countries section then I guess you get better answer.


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## Draco.IMF

Hack-Hook said:


> Nothing to do with Iran if you ask about it in Arab countries section then I guess you get better answer.



Syrian and Iranian scientists are sharing knowledge and cooperating in missile technology, so its the correct section

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## Hack-Hook

Draco.IMF said:


> Syrian and Iranian scientists are sharing knowledge and cooperating in missile technology, so its the correct section


Not exactly , we use different systems. We may share knowledge but we thread two different path.


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## mohsen

The center piece of the precise Ins navigation systems:

Iranian made fiber optic gyroscope, presented for the first time in the Kish air show





* گزارش مشرق از یک دستاورد جدید دفاعی؛ *
*گام مهم متخصصان کشور برای رفع نگرانی فرماندهان اسرائیلی!/ ساخت دقیق‌ترین ژیروسکوپ‌های جهان برای موشک‌های بالستیک ایرانی*

---------------
IRGC revealed the details about a hybrid navigation system for their future cruise missile with 1500km range,
it will be a combination of:
Ins ، Gps ، Glonass ، Tercom and Dsmac

*سپاه جرئیات موشک کروز ۱۵۰۰ کیلومتری را اعلام کرد *

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## Sineva

mohsen said:


> The center piece of the precise Ins navigation systems:
> 
> Iranian made fiber optic gyroscope, presented for the first time in the Kish air show
> View attachment 491125
> 
> 
> * گزارش مشرق از یک دستاورد جدید دفاعی؛ *
> *گام مهم متخصصان کشور برای رفع نگرانی فرماندهان اسرائیلی!/ ساخت دقیق‌ترین ژیروسکوپ‌های جهان برای موشک‌های بالستیک ایرانی*
> 
> ---------------
> IRGC revealed the details about a hybrid navigation system for their future cruise missile with 1500km range,
> it will be a combination of:
> Ins ، Gps ، Glonass ، Tercom and Dsmac
> 
> *سپاه جرئیات موشک کروز ۱۵۰۰ کیلومتری را اعلام کرد *


Well,well,the existence of iranian laser ring gyros had long been theorized tho I dont think it was ever confirmed,but now instead we see an iranian fibre optic gyro in the flesh.Well done iran.Its also one less thing you have to rely on anyone else for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre_optic_gyroscope

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## skyshadow

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/0...ile-for-first-time-in-2018-officials-say.html

*Iran test-fires ballistic missile for first time in 2018, officials say*

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## SubWater

skyshadow said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/0...ile-for-first-time-in-2018-officials-say.html
> 
> *Iran test-fires ballistic missile for first time in 2018, officials say*


Good move
*BRAVO IRI*

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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/0...ile-for-first-time-in-2018-officials-say.html
> 
> *Iran test-fires ballistic missile for first time in 2018, officials say*


about time, hope we see more tests of the khorramshahr too, looks like lots of work still needs to be done on it, but it is based on hw-10 which failed every test for north korea and north korea moved to a different design (hw-12)...

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## sanel1412

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> about time, hope we see more tests of the khorramshahr too, looks like lots of work still needs to be done on it, but it is based on hw-10 which failed every test for north korea and north korea moved to a different design (hw-12)...


Well khorramshahr is heavily modified version and it was successfuly tested but what.is really important about this missile isn't missile itself but engine...with that engine you can build anything you want

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## Persian Gulf 1906

sanel1412 said:


> Well khorramshahr is heavily modified version and it was successfuly tested but what.is really important about this missile isn't missile itself but engine...with that engine you can build anything you want


where did you read it was successful, i read it exploded in the air in both tests...

iran's missile engines are not powerful enough at the moment, but iran does not need missiles beyond 1800km anyway, we need a large mobile reliable 1800km solid fuel BM with MIRV and better accuracy and countermeasures like decoy warheads that we can produce in large quantities for deterrence against Israel, and the same with a shorter range maybe 600km missile for KSA oil bases in the East and US bases near us and large amounts of supersonic anti ship missiles (+smart mines) like khalij fars and qader to cover warships in the Persian Gulf and put them on lots of submarines in the Persian Gulf too, we really need to make supersonic anti-ship missile at least, russia/india/etc already making hypersonic


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## sanel1412

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> where did you read it was successful, i read it exploded in the air in both tests...
> 
> iran's missile engines are not powerful enough at the moment, but iran does not need missiles beyond 1800km anyway, we need a large mobile reliable 1800km solid fuel BM with MIRV and better accuracy and countermeasures like decoy warheads that we can produce in large quantities for deterrence against Israel, and the same with a shorter range maybe 600km missile for KSA oil bases in the East and US bases near us and large amounts of supersonic anti ship missiles (+smart mines) like khalij fars and qader to cover warships in the Persian Gulf and put them on lots of submarines in the Persian Gulf too, we really need to make supersonic anti-ship missile at least, russia/india/etc already making hypersonic


Please.stop quote my posts,I don't even try to explain.anything.here.since most of you who ask such stupid questions and claims are.simple.uneducated to.understand anything...


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## Hack-Hook

sanel1412 said:


> Please.stop quote my posts,I don't even try to explain.anything.here.since most of you who ask such stupid questions and claims are.simple.uneducated to.understand anything...


why to be angry , the missile tested once and the reentry vehicle exploded in Air .
why that happened ,there is speculations about that ,some say ,the test was failure , some say it was success and Iranians detonated the warhead themselves, other says the test was partially success ,and the warhead detonated because Iran wanted the land the missile in shorter range than it was designed and had to made the warhead come down a lot faster than usual and it's body could not stand the stress of that maneuver and if Iran used a normal flight pattern the warhead could land as it was designed.
all of these are guess works but the fact is that the warhead detonated while in reentry phase .



Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> where did you read it was successful, i read it exploded in the air in both tests...
> 
> iran's missile engines are not powerful enough at the moment, but iran does not need missiles beyond 1800km anyway, we need a large mobile reliable 1800km solid fuel BM with MIRV and better accuracy and countermeasures like decoy warheads that we can produce in large quantities for deterrence against Israel, and the same with a shorter range maybe 600km missile for KSA oil bases in the East and US bases near us and large amounts of supersonic anti ship missiles (+smart mines) like khalij fars and qader to cover warships in the Persian Gulf and put them on lots of submarines in the Persian Gulf too, we really need to make supersonic anti-ship missile at least, russia/india/etc already making hypersonic


Khorramshahr missile is supposed to hav a range of 2000 km , but its with a warhead of as heavy as 1800 kg which is a lot heavier than usuall 700kg warhead of Shahab3 or Sejjil . you put that lighter war head on this missile and it can go a lot more than 2000km


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## yavar

Hack-Hook said:


> why to be angry , the missile tested once and the reentry vehicle exploded in Air .


watch from 1:48 before you write such nonsense









وزیر دفاع، آزمایش موشکی اخیر کشورمان را موفقیت‌آمیز اعلام کرد.
سردار حسین دهقان وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح در گفت‌وگوی اختصاصی به خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم با اشاره به آزمایش موشکی اخیر کشورمان، گفت: این آزمایش موشکی موفقیت‌آمیز بوده است.
وی افزود: تست‌های موشکی ایران هیچ مغایرتی با برجام و قطعنامه 2231 نداشته و ندارد.
http://tn.ai/1315991

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## Hack-Hook

yavar said:


> watch from 1:48 before you write such nonsense
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> وزیر دفاع، آزمایش موشکی اخیر کشورمان را موفقیت‌آمیز اعلام کرد.
> سردار حسین دهقان وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح در گفت‌وگوی اختصاصی به خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم با اشاره به آزمایش موشکی اخیر کشورمان، گفت: این آزمایش موشکی موفقیت‌آمیز بوده است.
> وی افزود: تست‌های موشکی ایران هیچ مغایرتی با برجام و قطعنامه 2231 نداشته و ندارد.
> http://tn.ai/1315991


show me the rest of footage from onboard camera and then we will talk about successful test. all i see from 1:48 is that something hit ground but is it Khorramshahr.

and as the missile is not operational yet, that also support what I said that the missile is still in development .

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## mohsen

Hack-Hook said:


> all of these are guess works but the fact is that the warhead detonated while in reentry phase .


No, the fact is that there is not a single proof for the lies which you call fact.
The fact is that the footage which published by defense ministry shows complete success of the khorramshahr missile.







The fact is that now I'm suspicious whether you and a few other members are in fact a single troll with multiple accounts.

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## mohsen

Reformist traitors in Shiraz university fire Professor and students who work on missiles while encouraging them to migrate to west!

گفتگو با دانشجوی اخراجی دانشگاه شیراز؛
*  برادرانی که اخراج شدند/ تحقیقات دفاعی و موشکی ممنوع!  *

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## Persian Gulf 1906

sanel1412 said:


> Please.stop quote my posts,I don't even try to explain.anything.here.since most of you who ask such stupid questions and claims are.simple.uneducated to.understand anything...


you quoted my post you piece of shit, khak bar saret


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## skyshadow

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ta...ستیک-فاتح-110-با-نام-فاتح-مبین-رونمایی-شد/amp

Iran's new missile called Fateh Mobin

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## Websorber

*Iran revealed a new member of the Fateh family *

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## yavar



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## PeeD

An evolution of the Khalije Fars (IIR homing seeker) missile now with a smart image recognition algorithm to target land targets.
The Zolfaghar will get it as confirmed by the DM and it should be sufficiently economic to retrofit the Fath-110 and -313 arsenal, especially older 1st an 2nd gen Fateh-110.

Of course for later generation ones with more accurate IMU/INS and those with sub munition warheads, its not worth the effort. And a part of the arsenal will probably be assigned as area-target-only anyway as deterrence against gulf Arab oil and gas infrastructure (for which primary the unguided Zelzal series is the most cost effective choice).

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## Draco.IMF

Fateh, my favourite missile family 
It looks a bit longer and more "massive" as the older missile, or am im wrong?


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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> An evolution of the Khalije Fars (IIR homing seeker) missile now with a smart image recognition algorithm to target land targets.
> The Zolfaghar will get it as confirmed by the DM and it should be sufficiently economic to retrofit the Fath-110 and -313 arsenal, especially older 1st an 2nd gen Fateh-110.
> 
> Of course for later generation ones with more accurate IMU/INS and those with sub munition warheads, its not worth the effort. And a part of the arsenal will probably be assigned as area-target-only anyway as deterrence against gulf Arab oil and gas infrastructure (for which primary the unguided Zelzal series is the most cost effective choice).



How much of a game changer is this? Also any thoughts on how many Iran is willing to produce?


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## Hack-Hook

BlueInGreen2 said:


> How much of a game changer is this? Also any thoughts on how many Iran is willing to produce?


My guess is enough to replace our arsenal of zelzal missile.


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## PeeD

BlueInGreen2 said:


> How much of a game changer is this? Also any thoughts on how many Iran is willing to produce?



Perfection of a smart identification algorithm with image correlation is quite difficult and valuable. Ballistic missile rated one even more.

I remember when Israel unveiled their Spice PGM in the mid-2000s which had such a feature albeit rated for much slower speed. Their LORA, Fateh equivalent should have a ballistic missile rated one.

It is game changing as it gives the Fateh series now a real pin-point strike capability against land targets at low cost and an improved anti-ship BM.

Everyone knew this would happen at some point and the benefit is it is easy to retrofit to the existing arsenal. It certainly will get higher rating and move to be used in Emad, Sejil and Khorramshahr.
That black cap looks like one that remains there up until "re-entry", unlike the seeker for Khalije Fars. Now the Khalije Fars (and Fateh) is slow in relation and doesn't need a thermal cap, but at least with Zolfaghar and Qiam it is necessary and allows faster re-entry speeds. I don't think such a cap is just for transportation protection.

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## AmirPatriot

*Fateh Mobin Elevates Iranian Precision Ballistic Missile Capabilities *

By Amir Monday, August 13, 2018
Today Iran unveiled the Fateh Mobin, which appears to be a guidance upgrade for the Fateh family of solid fuelled SRBMs. Defence Minister Amir Hatami said that the Fateh family up to the Zolfaqar can be fitted with this guidance kit.





Click the link below for the full blog post.

https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2018/08/fateh-mobin-elevates-iranian-precision.html

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## yavar



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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> An evolution of the Khalije Fars (IIR homing seeker) missile now with a smart image recognition algorithm to target land targets.
> The Zolfaghar will get it as confirmed by the DM and it should be sufficiently economic to retrofit the Fath-110 and -313 arsenal, especially older 1st an 2nd gen Fateh-110.
> 
> Of course for later generation ones with more accurate IMU/INS and those with sub munition warheads, its not worth the effort. And a part of the arsenal will probably be assigned as area-target-only anyway as deterrence against gulf Arab oil and gas infrastructure (for which primary the unguided Zelzal series is the most cost effective choice).




If except for the processors and a few other parts almost every part and component is actually produced domestically the cost wouldn't be that high to produce!
Because if the Mobin kit is mostly made up of Iranian parts then the cost that goes into developing the product has already been paid for! So all the cost for the programing & software development, electrical engineering, metallurgical annalists, testing,.... all have already been paid for and now it's just a matter of producing or buying the parts and components and putting them all together 

And if your paying the cost to actually deliver a payload over 200km away your far better off paying the extra cost of a Domestically produced PGM especially if it's domestically produces with mostly domestically produced parts whos research and development has already been paid for

And since Zelzal TEL and launchers aren't much different than Fatteh Class launchers and the personal you need to launch them aren't much different then producing the Zelzal rather than the Fatteh seems like a stupid thing to do at Iran's level of technology

Today the ONLY thing Zelzal1/2/3 are good for is to be used as a decoy's or to rain down submunitions over an area as large as a small city much like unguided rockets of an MLRS and Iran shouldn't be wasting it's time and resources in producing Zelzal class rockets anymore


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> If except for the processors and a few other parts almost every part and component is actually produced domestically the cost wouldn't be that high to produce!
> Because if the Mobin kit is mostly made up of Iranian parts then the cost that goes into developing the product has already been paid for! So all the cost for the programing & software development, electrical engineering, metallurgical annalists, testing,.... all have already been paid for and now it's just a matter of producing or buying the parts and components and putting them all together
> 
> And if your paying the cost to actually deliver a payload over 200km away your far better off paying the extra cost of a Domestically produced PGM especially if it's domestically produces with mostly domestically produced parts whos research and development has already been paid for
> 
> And since Zelzal TEL and launchers aren't much different than Fatteh Class launchers and the personal you need to launch them aren't much different then producing the Zelzal rather than the Fatteh seems like a stupid thing to do at Iran's level of technology
> 
> Today the ONLY thing Zelzal1/2/3 are good for is to be used as a decoy's or to rain down submunitions over an area as large as a small city much like unguided rockets of an MLRS and Iran shouldn't be wasting it's time and resources in producing Zelzal class rockets anymore



Hezbollah won the battle of yaburd in Syrian war (one of the most important in the war) using door to door fighting and IRAMS. If anything the Syrian war demonstrated how cost effective IRAMS and artillery rockets are in urban warfare.

So yes Zelzal and other rockets serve great purpose in softening enemy defenses and fortifications when pinpoint accuracy is not needed.

Furthermore, Zelzal tech transfer has been made to Hezbollah. In 2006 it was one of their most advanced rockets and in small supply. Today it is probably one of the staples with Fateh being in short supply.

Furthermore, you do not know how much per cost per operation a Zelzal vs Fateh is. Either way Both serve different purposes.


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## arashkamangir

TheImmortal said:


> Hezbollah won the battle of yaburd in Syrian war (one of the most important in the war) using door to door fighting and IRAMS. If anything the Syrian war demonstrated how cost effective IRAMS and artillery rockets are in urban warfare.
> 
> So yes Zelzal and other rockets serve great purpose in softening enemy defenses and fortifications when pinpoint accuracy is not needed.
> 
> Furthermore, Zelzal tech transfer has been made to Hezbollah. In 2006 it was one of their most advanced rockets and in small supply. Today it is probably one of the staples with Fateh being in short supply.
> 
> Furthermore, you do not know how much per cost per operation a Zelzal vs Fateh is. Either way Both serve different purposes.


,

It's time for Iran to unveil their work on Hypersonic missiles. I am calling Emad and Khoramshahr as candidates for the first stage booster.


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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> If except for the processors and a few other parts almost every part and component is actually produced domestically the cost wouldn't be that high to produce!
> Because if the Mobin kit is mostly made up of Iranian parts then the cost that goes into developing the product has already been paid for! So all the cost for the programing & software development, electrical engineering, metallurgical annalists, testing,.... all have already been paid for and now it's just a matter of producing or buying the parts and components and putting them all together
> 
> And if your paying the cost to actually deliver a payload over 200km away your far better off paying the extra cost of a Domestically produced PGM especially if it's domestically produces with mostly domestically produced parts whos research and development has already been paid for
> 
> And since Zelzal TEL and launchers aren't much different than Fatteh Class launchers and the personal you need to launch them aren't much different then producing the Zelzal rather than the Fatteh seems like a stupid thing to do at Iran's level of technology
> 
> Today the ONLY thing Zelzal1/2/3 are good for is to be used as a decoy's or to rain down submunitions over an area as large as a small city much like unguided rockets of an MLRS and Iran shouldn't be wasting it's time and resources in producing Zelzal class rockets anymore



Yes the Zelzal series had a purpose against military targets back in the 90's and early 2000's, but after that it became a weapon to hold enemy infrastructure at risk. Look at Saudi oil infrastructure at their east cost, it is in range of Zelzal-2 and -3 and such a dense and huge target that a 4km CEP is still sufficient.
Submunition variants of them have still some purpose against large airbases near the Persian gulf.

So only if Iran thinks that it is not anymore necessary to hold that infrastructure under immediate risk it can invest to upgrade the Zelzal-2 and -3 with a guidance system and the terminal seeker of the Fathe Mobin.

We know that the Zelzal arsenal and their propose is already sufficient. They already switched the production to wind corrected battlefield rocket variants.

In total a Fateh with Mobin terminal seeker is still quite more expensive than a spin stabilized Zelzal rocket. It has all the steering system + IMU/INS + high rated terminal seeker.

Btw: The development of the Fateh Mobin is quite a big engineering feat. It's a worlds first in terms of design solution, unique. Imagine the difficulties to drop the protective tip without harming the seeker or crash into the missile body/fins. Especially so if it keeps the cap until the moment it is close enough to make the terrain correlation and thus update the INS. There doping the tip cap it the enorm dynamic pressure would be hard to master. In such a case even laser weapons that would try to destroy its seeker could not illuminate it long enough to achieve it. Hence it is possible that the Fathe Mobin is in fact a counter-measure against laser weapons of the enemies or just increase the robustness and allow higher terminal speeds.
Another reason could be that the Khalije Fars seeker became too hot to be used at land and only worked well against ships against cold water. Hence the cap would be there to keep the seeker cool until it can do the job.
Thats why I think the footage of the IIR seeker in the video is not the actual one of the Fathe Mobin but an UAV recording the test.

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> Yes the Zelzal series had a purpose against military targets back in the 90's and early 2000's, but after that it became a weapon to hold enemy infrastructure at risk. Look at Saudi oil infrastructure at their east cost, it is in range of Zelzal-2 and -3 and such a dense and huge target that a 4km CEP is still sufficient.
> Submunition variants of them have still some purpose against large airbases near the Persian gulf.
> 
> So only if Iran thinks that it is not anymore necessary to hold that infrastructure under immediate risk it can invest to upgrade the Zelzal-2 and -3 with a guidance system and the terminal seeker of the Fathe Mobin.
> 
> We know that the Zelzal arsenal and their propose is already sufficient. They already switched the production to wind corrected battlefield rocket variants.
> 
> In total a Fateh with Mobin terminal seeker is still quite more expensive than a spin stabilized Zelzal rocket. It has all the steering system + IMU/INS + high rated terminal seeker.
> 
> Btw: The development of the Fateh Mobin is quite a big engineering feat. It's a worlds first in terms of design solution, unique. Imagine the difficulties to drop the protective tip without harming the seeker or crash into the missile body/fins. Especially so if it keeps the cap until the moment it is close enough to make the terrain correlation and thus update the INS. There doping the tip cap it the enorm dynamic pressure would be hard to master. In such a case even laser weapons that would try to destroy its seeker could not illuminate it long enough to achieve it. Hence it is possible that the Fathe Mobin is in fact a counter-measure against laser weapons of the enemies or just increase the robustness and allow higher terminal speeds.
> Another reason could be that the Khalije Fars seeker became too hot to be used at land and only worked well against ships against cold water. Hence the cap would be there to keep the seeker cool until it can do the job.
> Thats why I think the footage of the IIR seeker in the video is not the actual one of the Fathe Mobin but an UAV recording the test.



I think I've read the DF-21D uses an optical seeker as well as ARH.

What I'm really interested in is the statement by Gen Hatami that the Mobin warhead can be mounted on Zolfaqar. Keeping in mind he also said Mobin can be used against land and sea targets (and launched from both land and sea!), this means Iran potentially has a 700 km ASBM. A huge development for Iran. Though I'm not sure if Iran currently has the reconnaissance and tracking capability to detect a warship 700 km from the shore.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

AmirPatriot said:


> I think I've read the DF-21D uses an optical seeker as well as ARH.
> 
> What I'm really interested in is the statement by Gen Hatami that the Mobin warhead can be mounted on Zolfaqar. Keeping in mind he also said Mobin can be used against land and sea targets (and launched from both land and sea!), this means Iran potentially has a 700 km ASBM. A huge development for Iran. Though I'm not sure if Iran currently has the reconnaissance and tracking capability to detect a warship 700 km from the shore.


military/surveillance/spy satellites are needed, what is the progress with these? i havent seen anything about safir in a long time, since the first launch of omid 50kg satellite it seems there has been no progress at all...


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## PeeD

AmirPatriot said:


> I think I've read the DF-21D uses an optical seeker as well as ARH.
> 
> What I'm really interested in is the statement by Gen Hatami that the Mobin warhead can be mounted on Zolfaqar. Keeping in mind he also said Mobin can be used against land and sea targets (and launched from both land and sea!), this means Iran potentially has a 700 km ASBM. A huge development for Iran. Though I'm not sure if Iran currently has the reconnaissance and tracking capability to detect a warship 700 km from the shore.



The DF-21D and DF-26 are more sophisticated, expensive and yes, are said to have a dual IIR and AHR seeker.
However we don't know details, whether they also use such a cap tip or what their technical solution for such a cap is.
With the cap it is no issue to develop a variant for the Zolfaghar (which has higher average speed).

As for the means to search for ships at 500-700km. Remember the over horizon surface wave radar on the Shiraz electronics website. They did not specify details nor have we spotted it on GE but they are at least working on it.


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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> I think I've read the DF-21D uses an optical seeker as well as ARH.
> 
> What I'm really interested in is the statement by Gen Hatami that the Mobin warhead can be mounted on Zolfaqar. Keeping in mind he also said Mobin can be used against land and sea targets (and launched from both land and sea!), this means Iran potentially has a 700 km ASBM. A huge development for Iran. Though I'm not sure if Iran currently has the reconnaissance and tracking capability to detect a warship 700 km from the shore.



Even with the use of Sea based and Air deployed sensor I truly doubt Iran could achieve targeting beyond 400km of Iranian soil at sea

I think with the survivability of Iranian ships and Iran's ability to deploy sensors post an initial attack the best Iran can hope for is no more than 400km from Iranian soil against sea targets in the best of conditions!

But even if the best you can hope for using specific vessels and aircraft is only *400km from Iranian soil (using aircraft & sea deployed sensors ) *a 700km anti ship missiles would increase survivability of such a missiles because you can not only bring them further inland but you can place them at reduced, more secure and better protected areas!
And with a 700km ASBM even if your targeting capability is no more than 350-400km from Iranian soil against sea targets with the proper inland equipment you can greatly increase the missiles survivability because then you can cover all of the Persian Gulf from 3-4 more secure and better protected Bases

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Yes the Zelzal series had a purpose against military targets back in the 90's and early 2000's, but after that it became a weapon to hold enemy infrastructure at risk. Look at Saudi oil infrastructure at their east cost, it is in range of Zelzal-2 and -3 and such a dense and huge target that a 4km CEP is still sufficient.
> Submunition variants of them have still some purpose against large airbases near the Persian gulf.
> 
> So only if Iran thinks that it is not anymore necessary to hold that infrastructure under immediate risk it can invest to upgrade the Zelzal-2 and -3 with a guidance system and the terminal seeker of the Fathe Mobin.
> 
> We know that the Zelzal arsenal and their propose is already sufficient. They already switched the production to wind corrected battlefield rocket variants.
> 
> In total a Fateh with Mobin terminal seeker is still quite more expensive than a spin stabilized Zelzal rocket. It has all the steering system + IMU/INS + high rated terminal seeker.
> 
> Btw: The development of the Fateh Mobin is quite a big engineering feat. It's a worlds first in terms of design solution, unique. Imagine the difficulties to drop the protective tip without harming the seeker or crash into the missile body/fins. Especially so if it keeps the cap until the moment it is close enough to make the terrain correlation and thus update the INS. There doping the tip cap it the enorm dynamic pressure would be hard to master. In such a case even laser weapons that would try to destroy its seeker could not illuminate it long enough to achieve it. Hence it is possible that the Fathe Mobin is in fact a counter-measure against laser weapons of the enemies or just increase the robustness and allow higher terminal speeds.
> Another reason could be that the Khalije Fars seeker became too hot to be used at land and only worked well against ships against cold water. Hence the cap would be there to keep the seeker cool until it can do the job.
> Thats why I think the footage of the IIR seeker in the video is not the actual one of the Fathe Mobin but an UAV recording the test.


 
Clearly it will be more expensive BUT building the Solid fuel, solid fuel engine, liquid fuel engines and stabilization control & Air Frame of a 250km missile is NOT cheap either!

And as you know Iran is not America where privet companies base prices based on the massive profit they plan on making for producing and selling each guided missiles where the cost of R&D, testing, facilities, tools,..... of that project and initial R&D cost for getting their next project going goes into the production cost!

Yes no doubt Iran would have to import it's processors, memory storage devices..... but overall if most of the components are Iranian produced and since you have already paid for R&D cost and the cost of the tools, facilities & human resources needed to produce them then the overall material cost, human resources cost, tools and facility cost,... needed to producing them wouldn't be as high as the costs needed for producing the Solid Fuel, Solid Fuel Engine, Rocket Airframe, spin stabilizing liquid fuel engines and controls, and warhead of a Zelzal 3 ( At least if most of the components are actually Iranian produced parts)
And since 2 Zelzal-3 will NEVER be equivalent to a single Fatteh-110A let alone the Mobin then it's utterly absurd to produce them anymore even to be used as a platform do deploy submunition in a target area of 5 square km it still make no sense to produce them anymore and the ones we already have in storage are sufficient to be used as decoys over Air Bases within ~200km of Iranian soil 

As for upgrades it if was up to me I would upgrade all my Zelzals 2-3 with the controls of the Fatteh-110A/B/C and I would upgrade my Fatteh-110 A/B/C rockets to Mobine with new flight controls, terminal seeker,.....


U.S. installing lasers on it's ships creates problems for all Iranian anti ship missiles that rely on optical or thermal seekers for terminal guidance & they don't actually have to take out the missile to make the missile miss a moving target because disabling the terminal guidance for a few seconds will be sufficient to make them miss a moving target by well over 500 meters or more (As for Chinese anti Ship DF-21 for the Chinese even landing within a few km of the target will be more than sufficient because most likely than not they will arm their own DF-21 with Tactical Nukes and they wouldn't bother firing such an expensive platform against sea targets without a nuclear payload )


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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> As for upgrades it if was up to me I would upgrade all my Zelzals 2-3 with the controls of the Fatteh-110A/B/C and I would upgrade my Fatteh-110 A/B/C rockets to Mobine with new flight controls, terminal seeker,.....


Didn't we previously announced some precision upgrade for Zelzal.


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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> As for the means to search for ships at 500-700km. Remember the over horizon surface wave radar on the Shiraz electronics website. They did not specify details nor have we spotted it on GE but they are at least working on it.



I'm somewhat doubtful about the ability of OTH radars to detect ships, but let's roll with it.

Assuming the 700 km flight time of Zolfaqar would be about 6 minutes a Nimitz carrier moving at 30+ knots would have moved up to 12 nautical miles, or 22 km from the initial snapshot coordinates fed into the Zolfaqar by the OTH radar. The question is, would the Zolfaqar's onboard sensor be able to detect the ship which could be anywhere in an up to 30-35 km radius of the initial position (it can make very sharp turns) given to it. This is why a dual ARH/IIR homing seeker would make sense I guess. Though I'm not sure how wide an area an IIR seeker can detect a target.

Link for estimated missile flight times, though Zolfaqar is a quasi-ballistic missile with lower velocity and possibly longer flight time.

https://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/ABM/BM_Classes.htm

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## PeeD

AmirPatriot said:


> I'm somewhat doubtful about the ability of OTH radars to detect ships, but let's roll with it.
> 
> Assuming the 700 km flight time of Zolfaqar would be about 6 minutes a Nimitz carrier moving at 30+ knots would have moved up to 12 nautical miles, or 22 km from the initial snapshot coordinates fed into the Zolfaqar by the OTH radar. The question is, would the Zolfaqar's onboard sensor be able to detect the ship which could be anywhere in an up to 30-35 km radius of the initial position (it can make very sharp turns) given to it. This is why a dual ARH/IIR homing seeker would make sense I guess. Though I'm not sure how wide an area an IIR seeker can detect a target.
> 
> Link for estimated missile flight times, though Zolfaqar is a quasi-ballistic missile with lower velocity and possibly longer flight time.
> 
> https://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/ABM/BM_Classes.htm



At Zolfaghars range a IIR only seeker should still be sufficient. Dual seeker with ARH/SAR would be good for longer ranges and more robust against counter measures.

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## Agha Sher

AmirPatriot said:


> I'm somewhat doubtful about the ability of OTH radars to detect ships, but let's roll with it.
> 
> Assuming the 700 km flight time of Zolfaqar would be about 6 minutes a Nimitz carrier moving at 30+ knots would have moved up to 12 nautical miles, or 22 km from the initial snapshot coordinates fed into the Zolfaqar by the OTH radar. The question is, would the Zolfaqar's onboard sensor be able to detect the ship which could be anywhere in an up to 30-35 km radius of the initial position (it can make very sharp turns) given to it. This is why a dual ARH/IIR homing seeker would make sense I guess. Though I'm not sure how wide an area an IIR seeker can detect a target.
> 
> Link for estimated missile flight times, though Zolfaqar is a quasi-ballistic missile with lower velocity and possibly longer flight time.
> 
> https://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/ABM/BM_Classes.htm



If the flight time of Zolfaqar is 6 minutes for 700 km, a Nimitz carrier will at most have moved 5 km by the time of arrival. Anyways, it is unreasonable to assume that a carrier will be moving with 30 knots, as it is not economical. 15-20 knots is a fairer assumption.

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## AmirPatriot

Agha Sher said:


> If the flight time of Zolfaqar is 6 minutes for 700 km, a Nimitz carrier will at most have moved 5 km by the time of arrival. Anyways, it is unreasonable to assume that a carrier will be moving with 30 knots, as it is not economical. 15-20 knots is a fairer assumption.



You're right, thanks for the correction.

But the carrier would still be moving at 30 knots because the Nimitz carriers are nuclear powered and therefore have effectively unlimited range. They will especially be moving at full speed and making erratic manoeuvres if they are being fired upon.



PeeD said:


> At Zolfaghars range a IIR only seeker should still be sufficient. Dual seeker with ARH/SAR would be good for longer ranges and more robust against counter measures.



Seeing as the carrier would only have moved a maximum of 5 km, this is true. I'd hope the seeker would become active at relatively high altitude so the ship doesn't move out of the FOV of the sensor or manoeuvring capability of the missile (I'm more worried about the former than the latter).

Any ideas of the accuracy of an OTH radar detecting a ship at very long range? Given Iran's Sepehr radar is quite far inland.

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## Agha Sher

AmirPatriot said:


> You're right, thanks for the correction.
> 
> But the carrier would still be moving at 30 knots because the Nimitz carriers are nuclear powered and therefore have effectively unlimited range. They will especially be moving at full speed and making erratic manoeuvres if they are being fired upon.



True - the aircraft carrier would manoeuvre at full speed if aware of an attack. However, what is also important is that the carrier group will need some time to discover the incoming missile and take action, therefore, even 5 km might be exaggerated in a realistic setting. 

I am not worried about whether it can find the carrier (its a 100.000 tons metal block floating around), but rather how the missile and Iran will breach the various defence measures of the carrier and the carrier group?

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## AmirPatriot

Agha Sher said:


> However, what is also important is that the carrier group will need some time to discover the incoming missile and take action



The US has an extensive network of ballistic missile detection mechanisms, including satellites and specialised ballistic missile tracking ships. There's also the radars on Aegis ships that will be part of a CSG.



Agha Sher said:


> I am not worried about whether it can find the carrier (its a 100.000 tons metal block floating around)



Well Iran cannot at this time send a naval fleet out into the open sea to detect and confront the US Navy. It would be suicide. The other methods of detection are satellites, maritime patrol aircraft and OTH radars. Iran doesn't have the satellites and its maritime patrol aircraft wouldn't survive a carrier fighter wing. The only option remaining is an OTH radar. As I understand they are used in detection of ships, though I am not well versed in their precision or reliability.



Agha Sher said:


> how the missile and Iran will breach the various defence measures of the carrier and the carrier group?



In the Persian Gulf, Iran uses a swarm strategy. There are coastal ASCM batteries located all along the Iranian coastline, as well as on a number of islands right in the middle of the Strait of Hormuz. These missiles have a range of up to 300 km. Iran's Khalije Fars missile is a 300 km range ASBM that has been operational for several years. As well as those there are over 2 dozen submarines and hundreds of small boats/FAC armed with everything from MLRS to ASCMs. This layered approach is designed to create maximum confusion and complexity for the enemy.

However, all these are well out of use beyond about 300 km. If Iran were to mount the Mobin warhead on the Zolfaqar missile (as the Defence Minister said would happen), it would give the Zolfaqar the ability to hit ships. Zolfaqar is a very extensively improved Fateh-110 variant with a MaRV that hits up to 700 km. The MaRV has quite a small profile and high maneuvering capability. It is Iran's equivalent of the Iskander. Operationally, Iran would likely aim to use "Zolfaqar Mobin" in volleys against US carriers and try to use their MaRV characteristics to evade Aegis defences. But the main benefit would be area denial. Any US carrier group within 700 km of Iranian shores would be at risk, and is likely to completely avoid entering that zone at all.







^ Zolfaqar missile. 5-6 of these were used against ISIS in Deir ez Zor in 2017.

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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> hundreds of small boats/FAC armed


Have you seen Hellfire in action?


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## AmirPatriot

raptor22 said:


> Have you seen Hellfire in action?


Only realistic launch platform is helicopters which are very vulnerable.


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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> Only realistic launch platform is helicopters which are very vulnerable.


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## mohsen

raptor22 said:


>

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## AmirPatriot

raptor22 said:


>



In limited service aboard a few ships. Besides, the more potent Iranian FAC with actual ASCMs far out-range the Hellfire.

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## skyshadow

https://lobelog.com/are-irans-ballistic-missiles-designed-to-be-nuclear-capable/

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## Sineva

raptor22 said:


>


Ah,the littoral warfare/combat ship,an answer in search of a question if ever I saw one.The biggest problem for this thing is simply its questionable survivability in the littorals.It would probably make a good anti pirate patrol vessel tho.It really was a pity that they didnt just start out with a clean sheet of paper design for a frigate instead rather that this "jack of all trades master of none" attempt,altho it looks like the saudis may be getting some so who knows maybe iran will get the chance to face them in combat some day.

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## raptor22

How many do we have?


AmirPatriot said:


> In limited service aboard a few ships. Besides, the more potent Iranian FAC with actual ASCMs far out-range the Hellfire.


I estimated its range 3 kms base on clip which means what u said about "actual ASCMs far out-range the Hellfire" could work ... but still we should be cautious and prepared 4 it too. millennium challenge was in 2002.

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## skyshadow

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/N...e-to-surface-missile-facility-in-Syria-566217

https://www.timesofisrael.com/satellite-photos-said-to-show-new-iranian-missile-factory-in-syria/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-to-iraq-in-warning-to-enemies-idUSKCN1LG0WB


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## skyshadow

http://etemaadonline.ir/content/229...ادار-دوربرد-و-موشک-بردبلند-را-رونمایی-می-کنیم

*بزودی پیشرفته‌ترین رادار دوربرد و موشک بردبلند را رونمایی می‌کنیم*

http://www.ghatreh.com/news/nn44097158/رونمایی-پیشرفته-ترین-رادار-دوربرد-موشک-بردبلند-بزودی


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## Websorber

*Iran moves missiles to Iraq in warning to enemies*

*https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-to-iraq-in-warning-to-enemies-idUSKCN1LG0WB*

*



*

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## WinterNights

skyshadow said:


> Iran's air lunched cruise missile with a range of 1,500 km. No name and information is available from the cruise missile.
> 
> View attachment 496023
> View attachment 496024
> View attachment 496025
> View attachment 496026
> View attachment 496027
> View attachment 496028
> View attachment 496029
> View attachment 496030
> View attachment 496031
> View attachment 496032



I don't think that's the cruse missile bro. That looks a like liquid fuelled missile (qiam?). Where did you get this from bro?

This is qiam:





Ali javid is @yavar channel. Is that from a new vid bro?

Edit yes, it seems it is deinfitely Qiam. Look at this vid, watch around 1:18

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## skyshadow

WinterNights said:


> I don't think that's the cruse missile bro. That looks a like liquid fuelled missile (qiam?). Where did you get this from bro?
> 
> This is qiam:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ali javid is @yavar channel. Is that from a new vid bro?
> 
> Edit yes, it seems it is deinfitely Qiam. Look at this vid, watch around 1:18


thanks. my bad


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## WinterNights

skyshadow said:


> thanks. my bad



No worries bro, was that image released by a new site as the cruise missile?
That cruise missile could be the next version of the Ya Ali missile:


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## skyshadow

WinterNights said:


> No worries bro, was that image released by a new site as the cruise missile?
> That cruise missile could be the next version of the Ya Ali missile:


no it was in a video

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## WinterNights

skyshadow said:


> no it was in a video



Don't worry dadash, we will see it revealed soon enough.

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## skyshadow

WinterNights said:


> No worries bro, was that image released by a new site as the cruise missile?
> That cruise missile could be the next version of the Ya Ali missile:


I doubt that too with that range it must be from ya ali family


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## Draco.IMF

Interesting papers were declassified, communication between Bill Clinton & Boris Yeltsin

-> Bill Clinton worried on Russia-Iran missile cooperation

In a paper SA-10 missile technology (S-300) is mentioned (1997), so it seems Iran got its hands on parts of the S-300 system sooner as I expected


*Interesting exchange between Clinton/Yeltsin on Russian-Iranian relations. 3/21/97




*


*On 5/20/97 Clinton again flags concerns about Russian cooperation w/ Iran on missiles for Yeltsin who doesn’t deny some Russians are doing so.*







*Clinton asks again for Yeltsin to crack down on Russian firms cooperating with Iranian missile program as Clinton tries to rebuff further congressional sanctions. 7/10/98






*

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## TheImmortal

Draco.IMF said:


> Interesting papers were declassified, communication between Bill Clinton & Boris Yeltsin
> 
> -> Bill Clinton worried on Russia-Iran missile cooperation
> 
> In a paper SA-10 missile technology (S-300) is mentioned (1997), so it seems Iran got its hands on parts of the S-300 system sooner as I expected
> 
> 
> *Interesting exchange between Clinton/Yeltsin on Russian-Iranian relations. 3/21/97
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *On 5/20/97 Clinton again flags concerns about Russian cooperation w/ Iran on missiles for Yeltsin who doesn’t deny some Russians are doing so.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Clinton asks again for Yeltsin to crack down on Russian firms cooperating with Iranian missile program as Clinton tries to rebuff further congressional sanctions. 7/10/98
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



“Islamic Fundamentalism poses a threat to us as well”

This is all you need to know about Russia.

While US arms to the teeth some of the most Islamic fundamentalist regimes in the world, they view Iran as a separate greater threat than all of their puppet Arab countries and you have words from a Russian president also confirming the same viewpoint from russia.

So next time someone assumes Russia is going to help Iran in a major way (ToT, SU-35, etc) remember that quote.

Also goes to show you how desperate for cash Russian arms dealers were from lates ‘80s to late 90’s. Unfortunately Iran didn’t take more of an advantage at a time when Russia was very weak internally.

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## T-72B

TheImmortal said:


> “Islamic Fundamentalism poses a threat to us as well”
> 
> This is all you need to know about Russia.
> 
> While US arms to the teeth some of the most Islamic fundamentalist regimes in the world, they view Iran as a separate greater threat than all of their puppet Arab countries and you have words from a Russian president also confirming the same viewpoint from russia.
> 
> So next time someone assumes Russia is going to help Iran in a major way (ToT, SU-35, etc) remember that quote.
> 
> Also goes to show you how desperate for cash Russian arms dealers were from lates ‘80s to late 90’s. Unfortunately Iran didn’t take more of an advantage at a time when Russia was very weak internally.


This is the proofs that Russia isn't a reliable ally for Iran

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## pin gu

Draco.IMF said:


> Interesting papers were declassified, communication between Bill Clinton & Boris Yeltsin
> 
> -> Bill Clinton worried on Russia-Iran missile cooperation
> 
> In a paper SA-10 missile technology (S-300) is mentioned (1997), so it seems Iran got its hands on parts of the S-300 system sooner as I expected
> 
> 
> *Interesting exchange between Clinton/Yeltsin on Russian-Iranian relations. 3/21/97
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *On 5/20/97 Clinton again flags concerns about Russian cooperation w/ Iran on missiles for Yeltsin who doesn’t deny some Russians are doing so.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Clinton asks again for Yeltsin to crack down on Russian firms cooperating with Iranian missile program as Clinton tries to rebuff further congressional sanctions. 7/10/98
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *








Localization rate :
Saegheh 1 : 56% 
Saegheh 2 : 65 %
Kowsar : 88%

It's only F-5 family .
Some of my countrymen should look at other aircraft and that are flying non-stop like IRGC's Ilyushins and Sukhois or Army's MiGs .

Is it United States or Israel that helping us to build Kowsar or similar projects and keep our air fleet operational ? Maybe it's someone else 

( thanks to @un4given.1991  for pic )

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## yavar

skyshadow said:


> no it was in a video

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## Persian Gulf 1906

Bill Clinton thought the difference between Iran and the USA was that Iran funds "terrorism" across the world?

Wait until he sees what the US has done for the past 80 years...!

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## Kastor

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> Bill Clinton thought the difference between Iran and the USA was that Iran funds "terrorism" across the world?
> 
> Wait until he sees what the US has done for the past 80 years...!


Red cross estimates Iraq has lost approx 500,000 civilians...not soldiers, civilians (perhaps it's even more)! Now add, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya and you get an idea how many Muslims have died because of a LIE! I have to chuckle every time they announce on TV Iran is the biggest sponsor of terror, obviously a term created by the Zionists who control all of the news outlets in America.
PS: This is the most dangerous thing....a lie repeated to the unsuspecting public over and over again. Just like the phrase "Israel is our stalwart ally" Bullshit!! Israel has nothing in common with the U.S. they are an Apartheid state, the only occupying regime left in the world.....but they keep repeating it, just like terms like "radical Islam" "Islamic-terror". You don't hear Christian terror or Jewish terror...when a christian fundamentalist kills someone, or a settler shoots a Palestinian. We are dealing with real evil here folks....the world will not stand for it for ever...trust me.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

Kastor said:


> Red cross estimates Iraq has lost approx 500,000 civilians...not soldiers, civilians (perhaps it's even more)! Now add, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya and you get an idea how many Muslims have died because of a LIE! I have to chuckle every time they announce on TV Iran is the biggest sponsor of terror, obviously a term created by the Zionists who control all of the news outlets in America.
> PS: This is the most dangerous thing....a lie repeated to the unsuspecting public over and over again. Just like the phrase "Israel is our stalwart ally" Bullshit!! Israel has nothing in common with the U.S. they are an Apartheid state, the only occupying regime left in the world.....but they keep repeating it, just like terms like "radical Islam" "Islamic-terror". You don't hear Christian terror or Jewish terror...when a christian fundamentalist kills someone, or a settler shoots a Palestinian. We are dealing with real evil here folks....the world will not stand for it for ever...trust me.


that is without even mentioning the unimaginable war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by the US in Korea and then Vietnam... but nobody will talk about these... or giving saddam chemical weapons to use against iran... etc...

it is funny because all these US politicians know it's bullshit, Hillary Clinton in leaked memos complained about how KSA was funding extremist terrorist groups and Donald Trump wrote in his book before he became president that KSA was the biggest state sponsor of terrorism!

94% of all global terrorism is by sunni terrorists! i agree there is a media narrative, but islamic terrorism is real and all religions are harmful to humanity


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## Beny Karachun

Kastor said:


> the only occupying regime left in the world.....but they keep repeating it, just like terms like "radical Islam" "Islamic-terror". You don't hear Christian terror or Jewish terror...when a christian fundamentalist kills someone, or a settler shoots a Palestinian. We are dealing with real evil here folks....the world will not stand for it for ever...trust me.


I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of occupying regimes in the world, and Israel is not one of them.
Whatever you call "Palestine" is rightful Israeli land.
Ironic, you're repeating terms like "Occupation" and "Genocide" all the time.
Because terror caused by Christians or Jews isn't done with the complete and utter approval of their holy books.


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## Kastor

Beny Karachun said:


> I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of occupying regimes in the world, and Israel is not one of them.
> Whatever you call "Palestine" is rightful Israeli land.
> Ironic, you're repeating terms like "Occupation" and "Genocide" all the time.
> Because terror caused by Christians or Jews isn't done with the complete and utter approval of their holy books.


No Israel is the only one....process that. Also Palestinian land is just that. The rightful land is the land you people stole prior to 1967. No need to repeat that lie here...this isn't your audience. Also our holy book does not approve genocide or terrorism, the Wahhabi's co-oped it to fit their backward narrative..sort of like your people claiming Palestinian land belongs to the Jews. Same..same.

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## TheImmortal

Beny Karachun said:


> I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of occupying regimes in the world, and Israel is not one of them.
> Whatever you call "Palestine" is rightful Israeli land.
> Ironic, you're repeating terms like "Occupation" and "Genocide" all the time.
> Because terror caused by Christians or Jews isn't done with the complete and utter approval of their holy books.



By that logic, Iran should lay claim to all of the PGCC countries, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan and Armenia because for thousands of years these countries were part of Iran (Persia). 

You know why the world rejects Iran’s claims to these areas? 

It’s because it would make Iran an energy superpower holding the worlds biggest reserves of BOTH oil and natural gas as well the two most strategic waterways in the Middle East.

So let’s not talk about “rightful” land here.

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## Hack-Hook

Beny Karachun said:


> I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of occupying regimes in the world, and Israel is not one of them.
> Whatever you call "Palestine" is rightful Israeli land.
> Ironic, you're repeating terms like "Occupation" and "Genocide" all the time.
> Because terror caused by Christians or Jews isn't done with the complete and utter approval of their holy books.


Let not talk about Palestine , let talk about Syria and Lebanon what about them , is not that occupation ?
by the way about second part of your quote ,well Rabbi Dov Lior and Rabbi Yaacov Perrin
have other Ideas
by the way didn't Jewish militia used verse of bible to justify what they did in Deir Yasin ?
didn't in Torat HaMelech it perfectly explained under Torrah laws its legal to kill Gentiles even their Babies ?
was not assassination of Yitzhak Rabin justified by some laws in Torrah ?

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## Persian Gulf 1906

Beny Karachun said:


> I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of occupying regimes in the world, and Israel is not one of them.
> Whatever you call "Palestine" is rightful Israeli land.


Every single country in the world regards Israel as the occupier of Palestinian land (and the Golan Heights), it's not just a few people on PDF who are saying that.

I think you're a bit confused, I think you meant "whatever you call "Israel" is rightful Palestinian land".

About religion inspired terrorism, you forgot about Baruch Goldstein massacring 29 Palestinians at the Cave of the Patriarchs? And how his tomb said "He gave his life for the people of Israel, its *Torah*" and his fanatic zionist followers came to his tomb so they had to remove that inscription, and now it just calls him a *martyr*?

PS. Nice -29 red ratings.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> “Islamic Fundamentalism poses a threat to us as well”
> 
> This is all you need to know about Russia.
> 
> While US arms to the teeth some of the most Islamic fundamentalist regimes in the world, they view Iran as a separate greater threat than all of their puppet Arab countries and you have words from a Russian president also confirming the same viewpoint from russia.
> 
> So next time someone assumes Russia is going to help Iran in a major way (ToT, SU-35, etc) remember that quote.
> 
> Also goes to show you how desperate for cash Russian arms dealers were from lates ‘80s to late 90’s. Unfortunately Iran didn’t take more of an advantage at a time when Russia was very weak internally.



1st off what exactly did you expect a Russian President to say to the American President?

Did you expect him to tell the American President to go ……….himself and risk further sanctions on his own country for Iran??? 

Also the fact that Islamic extremist were and are a threat to Russia is a known fact!!!!! Today they are also a threat to Iran as well! 

And Hedooneh zeereh baghal degaran gozoshtan is part of diplomacy!!!!!!!

And while he was saying these things to the Americans Boris Yeltsin was delivering Kilo Subs to Iran! In fact all the Kilo Subs Iran received and most of our Air Defense systems today are weapons delivered during his presidency!!!!!!!!!!

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## VEVAK

pin gu said:


> Localization rate :
> Saegheh 1 : 56%
> Saegheh 2 : 65 %
> Kowsar : 88%
> 
> It's only F-5 family .
> Some of my countrymen should look at other aircraft and that are flying non-stop like IRGC's Ilyushins and Sukhois or Army's MiGs .
> 
> Is it United States or Israel that helping us to build Kowsar or similar projects and keep our air fleet operational ? Maybe it's someone else
> 
> ( thanks to @un4given.1991  for pic )



No one is helping us! If someone was actually helping us we wouldn't be stuck on such an absurdly useless platform for well over a decade 

Early versions had to use imported raw materials for the structure (At least parts that we could build) and slowly they moved on to version that could be produced with Iranian raw materials
Early versions had to use imported OR USED ejection seats, avionics, sensors, engines,..... 
So no one was actually helping us! Parts they could refurbish off grounded Iranian F-5's they would and parts they couldn't they would get in the open market or the black market if necessary.... And that's why they were never produced in a significant amount!

And there will always be parts on a platform such as a fighter jet that unless mass produced in large numbers they are just not worth producing at home even when you do have the technology to do so!


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## pin gu

VEVAK said:


> No one is helping us! If someone was actually helping us we wouldn't be stuck on such an absurdly useless platform for well over a decade
> 
> Early versions had to use imported raw materials for the structure (At least parts that we could build) and slowly they moved on to version that could be produced with Iranian raw materials
> Early versions had to use imported OR USED ejection seats, avionics, sensors, engines,.....
> So no one was actually helping us! Parts they could refurbish off grounded Iranian F-5's they would and parts they couldn't they would get in the open market or the black market if necessary.... And that's why they were never produced in a significant amount!
> 
> And there will always be parts on a platform such as a fighter jet that unless mass produced in large numbers they are just not worth producing at home even when you do have the technology to do so!



Today's Russia is not backstabber as some ppl say it here and also they are not our strategic allies too . I remember there was debate about it and the guy in TV rightly name it "strategic alliance in time of need !"

It's important that which face of Iran we are showing to others and based on this picture other countries decide to have certain degree of relationship with us or not .






1:30

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> 1st off what exactly did you expect a Russian President to say to the American President?
> 
> Did you expect him to tell the American President to go ……….himself and risk further sanctions on his own country for Iran???
> 
> Also the fact that Islamic extremist were and are a threat to Russia is a known fact!!!!! Today they are also a threat to Iran as well!
> 
> And Hedooneh zeereh baghal degaran gozoshtan is part of diplomacy!!!!!!!
> 
> And while he was saying these things to the Americans Boris Yeltsin was delivering Kilo Subs to Iran! In fact all the Kilo Subs Iran received and most of our Air Defense systems today are weapons delivered during his presidency!!!!!!!!!!



Yeltsin was a traitor to the Soviet Union and Russia. He was a western backed agent that fulfilled the nice role of kissing *** to US presidents. He tried to push through reforms that only further its collapse.

And it wasn’t Yeltsin delivering arms to Iran, it was Soviet Generals, Arms dealers, Etc that had suddenly become broke and jobless from the disintegration of Soviet Union that they were selling off massive arms stockpiles for valuable currency.

Iran just happened to be one of MANY customers, not some notable exception that Russia took pity on or some strategic calculus.

Furthermore, Iran really did not take enough advantage of an internally chaotic Russia at that time. But I blame that on another Western backed agent Rafsanjani. The man only cared about further enriching himself
And his companies.

By the way those same Kilo subs were not sent to Russia for modernization in last several years because Iran feared Russia wouldn’t give them back! So even 20 years later Russia is remorse it sold those to Iran! Again act of desperation!

When Yeltsin says he doesn’t have control over those areas, he is more or less right. That time was choas for Russia and everyone was trying to make a quick buck from all the arms left over from the Soviet Union. So it was either sell them or send them to rot in storage. So of course Russian military officials took the route most beneficial!

Get it through your head, Russia is not an Iran ally. Will never be.

Most of the world buys Western arms including the Arab countries. So Russia has to sometimes deal with the clients it has not the clients it WANTS.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Yeltsin was a traitor to the Soviet Union and Russia. He was a western backed agent that fulfilled the nice role of kissing *** to US presidents. He tried to push through reforms that only further its collapse.
> 
> And it wasn’t Yeltsin delivering arms to Iran, it was Soviet Generals, Arms dealers, Etc that had suddenly become broke and jobless from the disintegration of Soviet Union that they were selling off massive arms stockpiles for valuable currency.
> 
> Iran just happened to be one of MANY customers, not some notable exception that Russia took pity on or some strategic calculus.
> 
> Furthermore, Iran really did not take enough advantage of an internally chaotic Russia at that time. But I blame that on another Western backed agent Rafsanjani. The man only cared about further enriching himself
> And his companies.
> 
> By the way those same Kilo subs were not sent to Russia for modernization in last several years because Iran feared Russia wouldn’t give them back! So even 20 years later Russia is remorse it sold those to Iran! Again act of desperation!
> 
> When Yeltsin says he doesn’t have control over those areas, he is more or less right. That time was choas for Russia and everyone was trying to make a quick buck from all the arms left over from the Soviet Union. So it was either sell them or send them to rot in storage. So of course Russian military officials took the route most beneficial!
> 
> Get it through your head, Russia is not an Iran ally. Will never be.
> 
> Most of the world buys Western arms including the Arab countries. So Russia has to sometimes deal with the clients it has not the clients it WANTS.



I don't much care about Boris Yeltsin domestic policies because by the most part that's Russian business not mine! 

But when it comes to selling weapons to Iran we purchased Everything from license production of AK-47's & RPG's to Armored vehicles and Tanks to Air Defense systems and Subs 
This is not a few former Russian Generals getting paid a few million to transfer a handful of Kh-55 cruise missiles to Iran

Rafzanjani was rich even before the revolution and he practically paid for the revolution and he had every chance to become Iran's Supreme Leader and if he was so greedy as you say that's what he would have done!
In large part Iran owes major sections of it's defense industry to Rafzanjani not to mention the revolution it's self

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Yeltsin was a traitor to the Soviet Union and Russia. He was a western backed agent that fulfilled the nice role of kissing *** to US presidents. He tried to push through reforms that only further its collapse.
> 
> And it wasn’t Yeltsin delivering arms to Iran, it was Soviet Generals, Arms dealers, Etc that had suddenly become broke and jobless from the disintegration of Soviet Union that they were selling off massive arms stockpiles for valuable currency.
> 
> Iran just happened to be one of MANY customers, not some notable exception that Russia took pity on or some strategic calculus.
> 
> Furthermore, Iran really did not take enough advantage of an internally chaotic Russia at that time. But I blame that on another Western backed agent Rafsanjani. The man only cared about further enriching himself
> And his companies.
> 
> By the way those same Kilo subs were not sent to Russia for modernization in last several years because Iran feared Russia wouldn’t give them back! So even 20 years later Russia is remorse it sold those to Iran! Again act of desperation!
> 
> When Yeltsin says he doesn’t have control over those areas, he is more or less right. That time was choas for Russia and everyone was trying to make a quick buck from all the arms left over from the Soviet Union. So it was either sell them or send them to rot in storage. So of course Russian military officials took the route most beneficial!
> 
> Get it through your head, Russia is not an Iran ally. Will never be.
> 
> Most of the world buys Western arms including the Arab countries. So Russia has to sometimes deal with the clients it has not the clients it WANTS.



Took the words right out of my mouth. Russia is a all around shit nation that will never be an ally to Iran in any meaningful way.

I really don't know why so many people like to view Iran and Russia as "allies" when clearly they're not anything even close to allies, more like unfortunate partners regarding certain matters. If push came to shove, Russia will abandon Iran to the wolves.

Question? I think it was you that comment a little earlier that it was Iran who changed the codes or the AA systems of Syria and the Russians provided the codes to the Israelis. How is this even a feasible thing for the Russians to do to the Syrians? One would can only imagine the outrage that SAA went through upon finding this out (given that this is indeed what happened). Basically I'm asking if this actually happened. Kind of scary tbh I hope Iran changed their codes for the S-300pmu2 systems it got.

Lol, but moral of the story is to NEVER trust the Russians, this I just simply agree with. Until they show some change in actions want to be actual allies then to me they're just playing the same game as everyone else.

Iran and Syria are true allies, Hezbollah and Iran and true allies, US and Israel are more like Master and slave xD.

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## azbaroj

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Took the words right out of my mouth. Russia is a all around shit nation that will never be an ally to Iran in any meaningful way.
> 
> I really don't know why so many people like to view Iran and Russia as "allies" when clearly they're not anything even close to allies, more like unfortunate partners regarding certain matters. If push came to shove, Russia will abandon Iran to the wolves.
> 
> Question? I think it was you that comment a little earlier that it was Iran who changed the codes or the AA systems of Syria and the Russians provided the codes to the Israelis. How is this even a feasible thing for the Russians to do to the Syrians? One would can only imagine the outrage that SAA went through upon finding this out (given that this is indeed what happened). Basically I'm asking if this actually happened. Kind of scary tbh I hope Iran changed their codes for the S-300pmu2 systems it got.
> 
> Lol, but moral of the story is to NEVER trust the Russians, this I just simply agree with. Until they show some change in actions want to be actual allies then to me they're just playing the same game as everyone else.
> 
> Iran and Syria are true allies, Hezbollah and Iran and true allies, US and Israel are more like Master and slave xD.


Hezbollah and Iran are not allies , they are the undevisible part of a body . In case of US and Israel , who is the master ? Meaningful word is , Israel is the master . US just do what Israel orders . 
Iran and Russia , what a filthy alley ! Israel pounded Iranian positions in Syria , with S 400 Russia is just watching though they are fighting against ISIS together . At least Russia could forbid Israel until Syria is free . 
Russia is an unreliable alley

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## Kastor

Here's another angle, it's the poor planning and poor leadership of Iran that left us exposed in Syria, we should have known our assets were exposed to the Zionists and that Putin would eventually use us as a bargaining chip. This is poor vision and strategic planning. Also in no small part the Iranian attitude that we will not talk to the USA...I hate this more than anything, as if the USA gives a shit if we talk to them or not. Thats exactly what our enemies want...keep turning our backs to everyone except Russia...Amateurs!

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## TheImmortal

Kastor said:


> Here's another angle, it's the poor planning and poor leadership of Iran that left us exposed in Syria, we should have known our assets were exposed to the Zionists and that Putin would eventually use us as a bargaining chip. This is poor vision and strategic planning. Also in no small part the Iranian attitude that we will not talk to the USA...I hate this more than anything, as if the USA gives a shit if we talk to them or not. Thats exactly what our enemies want...keep turning our backs to everyone except Russia...Amateurs!



As if the US wants to “talk” to Iran.

Talks are nothing more than than the complete unraveling of iran’s nuclear, ballistic, political, and military infrastructure.

Don’t be naive.

US will make temporary reversible rather meaningless concessions in exchange for permanent irreversible changes on Iran’s part. (see Arak reactor)

US excels at this stratergy more than any country in the world.

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## Sineva

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Took the words right out of my mouth. Russia is a all around shit nation that will never be an ally to Iran in any meaningful way.
> 
> I really don't know why so many people like to view Iran and Russia as "allies" when clearly they're not anything even close to allies, more like unfortunate partners regarding certain matters. If push came to shove, Russia will abandon Iran to the wolves.
> 
> Question? I think it was you that comment a little earlier that it was Iran who changed the codes or the AA systems of Syria and the Russians provided the codes to the Israelis. How is this even a feasible thing for the Russians to do to the Syrians? One would can only imagine the outrage that SAA went through upon finding this out (given that this is indeed what happened). Basically I'm asking if this actually happened. Kind of scary tbh I hope Iran changed their codes for the S-300pmu2 systems it got.
> 
> Lol, but moral of the story is to NEVER trust the Russians, this I just simply agree with. Until they show some change in actions want to be actual allies then to me they're just playing the same game as everyone else.
> 
> Iran and Syria are true allies, Hezbollah and Iran and true allies, US and Israel are more like Master and slave xD.


Exactly!!,I`m utterly baffled at those who still continue to think or continue to insist despite all the evidence to the contrary that russia is irans ally,would an ally have voted against iran at the unsc?,would any ally have needed to be taken to arbitration to force it to deliver the sam system that was bought and paid for?,would an ally have thrown away priceless economic opportunities like the tu204sm deal in return for short term political gain with its allies enemies?
The one single area where the russians have been reliable,at least as far as iran was concerned was in their almost *complete total unreliability.*
The most the russians have ever been,such as in syria for instance,is a sometime partner of mutual convenience because it suits both sides but only up to a point.Other than that I wouldnt trust russia as far as I could sh!t,piss,spit or kick it,which I think is a sad thing to admit frankly,but nonetheless I think its also true.Russia does not want to destroy iran as the west does,but it does not want to see a strong iran either.I think that both the west and russia want a weak divided middle east as it makes it far easier to meddle in.


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## Kastor

TheImmortal said:


> As if the US wants to “talk” to Iran.
> 
> Talks are nothing more than than the complete unraveling of iran’s nuclear, ballistic, political, and military infrastructure.
> 
> Don’t be naive.
> 
> US will make temporary reversible rather meaningless concessions in exchange for permanent irreversible changes on Iran’s part. (see Arak reactor)
> 
> US excels at this stratergy more than any country in the world.


You misunderstood, by talking to the enemy you can stall or diffuse actions...don’t you see by the fact that Iran refusal to talk the vacuum left is being filled by the Zionist and the Gulf Arabs. This bullshit we won’t even talk is useless and amateurish, almost as useless as shouting “Margh bar America” every damn day...yeah they’re really hurting now.


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## TheImmortal

Kastor said:


> You misunderstood, by talking to the enemy you can stall or diffuse actions...don’t you see by the fact that Iran refusal to talk the vacuum left is being filled by the Zionist and the Gulf Arabs. This bullshit we won’t even talk is useless and amateurish, almost as useless as shouting “Margh bar America” every damn day...yeah they’re really hurting now.



When a leader of another country belittles you and goes and tells the world that he will bring such wrath on your country that the world has rarely seen, the answer is not to suck up to demands to talk.

That teaches your opponent the next time he wants to talk to you, he will come at you by belittling your country and your people because that is how to get your attention. Rather than from a point of mutual respect, you will spoken to like servant.

You have a lot to learn about geopolitics.

Last I checked, when a president came at Iran from a point of mutual respect Iran sat and talked for years. It resulted in a deal (JCPOA) and Iran abiding by its terms.

What did that exactly get Iran?

NOTHING!

The US tore the paper like it wasn’t worth a damn thing! Because they decided they want more! The rest of the world followed
their orders like good Little soldiers.

European countries that existed for centuries prior to the US, had to embarrass themselves and kneel in front of the US.

Don’t you get it? The US Empire is a war machine, it needs war/conflict to survive. Since it’s birth it has been consumed by war.

So no Iran is not hermit kingdom North Korea, it will not talk for the sake of talking. Nor will it amuse absurd demands.

So sooner or later if the US deep state doesn’t change what type of relationship they want to have with Iran, then War will come.

Unfortunately, it is not Iran’s decision anymore. The US will decide when the war starts.

Talks and negotiations is just code for surrender now.

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## raptor22

Kastor said:


> You misunderstood, by talking to the enemy you can stall or diffuse actions...don’t you see by the fact that Iran refusal to talk the vacuum left is being filled by the Zionist and the Gulf Arabs. This bullshit we won’t even talk is useless and amateurish, almost as useless as shouting “Margh bar America” every damn day...yeah they’re really hurting now.


We talked for 12 years ... results?

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## VEVAK

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Took the words right out of my mouth. Russia is a all around shit nation that will never be an ally to Iran in any meaningful way.
> 
> I really don't know why so many people like to view Iran and Russia as "allies" when clearly they're not anything even close to allies, more like unfortunate partners regarding certain matters. If push came to shove, Russia will abandon Iran to the wolves.
> 
> Question? I think it was you that comment a little earlier that it was Iran who changed the codes or the AA systems of Syria and the Russians provided the codes to the Israelis. How is this even a feasible thing for the Russians to do to the Syrians? One would can only imagine the outrage that SAA went through upon finding this out (given that this is indeed what happened). Basically I'm asking if this actually happened. Kind of scary tbh I hope Iran changed their codes for the S-300pmu2 systems it got.
> 
> Lol, but moral of the story is to NEVER trust the Russians, this I just simply agree with. Until they show some change in actions want to be actual allies then to me they're just playing the same game as everyone else.
> 
> Iran and Syria are true allies, Hezbollah and Iran and true allies, US and Israel are more like Master and slave xD.



The type of strategic partnership you speak of only happens in countries that have cultural, religious & or Ideological ties and similarities and NO major power on the planet holds such similarities with Iran! So if you were to replace Russia with France, Germany, U.K., China,... or any other major power in the world do you actually think they would be willing to bleed for Iran or ever risk their own economies for Iran even the U.S. unless your one of their puppet states where they practically own a large section of your economy the answer would still be NO so in that regard Russia is no different than any other major power on the planet!

We Iranians look at our relations with the U.S. when we were a puppet state during the shah and we think we can have a strategic partnership with a major power that would treat us as if a puppet state when it comes to defending Iran but without actually being a puppet state as it pertains to our economy and defense spending! 


As for the Russian codes the MAIN problem with Iranian S-300's is NOT the Codes being handed off because neither the Israeli's or American will carryout an attack on Iran based on trust placed on Russian encryptions handed to them! THE MAIN Problem with Iranian S-300 systems is their limited number in a country the size of Iran and due to their limited number all Iranian S-300 Fire control, Targeting equipment and radars can and will likely be tracked using space based assets and against Iran especially against a limited number of high profile highly capable systems deep inside Iranian territory the 1st go to option both for the Israeli's and Americans against limited number of high value targets that don't require large payloads would be *covert actions using Spy's & special forces using specialized high tech equipment armed with low payload weapons *or worse portable directed energy weapons 
Especially today where invisibility cloaks are no longer science fiction a special forces team assisted by spy's could easily enter your territory via underground tunnels and deploy cloaked UGV armed with rockets, suicide UAV's or specialized short ranged missiles deployed from within 10km away 

Today the Americans have the technology to send battalions of cloaked remotely operated unmanned ground vehicles into Iran that would each be armed with various types of weapons that would be deployed against high value targets like S-300's so it's doubtful that they'll let it get to a point where they have to test the Russian encryptions


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## zectech

pin gu said:


> Today's Russia is not backstabber as some ppl say it here and also they are not our strategic allies too . I remember there was debate about it and the guy in TV rightly name it "strategic alliance in time of need !"
> 
> It's important that which face of Iran we are showing to others and based on this picture other countries decide to have certain degree of relationship with us or not .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1:30



Zionists own Putin like the Zionists own Washington. Zionists seem to have the choice of two options: zionist Republicans or zionist Democrats. Zionist Russia or Zionist Amerika. And all slaves follow along with this choice and pick their zionist flavour of filth. Putin is ally of Netanyahu, not Iran. Iran is there for Putin to steer and try to control because Putin is a ex-KGB agent, a spy for the zionists to befriend the free Muslims. You think Putin is bombing Syria for Assad? Putin bombs Syria because Putin like to bomb Muslims and because the zionists ok'd the Russian involvement to get rid of ISIS.

All this posturing by the Russian navy is simply show to make it seem like Putin cares about Assad. When Netanyahu wants Assad dead, Putin will let it happen. Like with Saddam, like with Qaddafi. If Putin cared about rich Qaddafi, Vlad would have sold the best missile defense system and best anti-ship missile to Libya while Qaddafi was aware of the imminent attack by the zionist league.

Russia is not selling the best missiles, fighters and tanks to Iran because Iran is an enemy of Putin. You sanction your enemies, not your friends. Friends look after friends. You want your enemy to undergo crushing sanctions to make them weak for the zionist take over.

If you really want to know about Putin start with what propelled Vlad into office:






These false flag attacks were blamed on Muslims to instigate a war to genocide Muslims.

Never trust Putin the Muslim killer. Iran is on their own to develop missile technology. And planes and other vital defenses.


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## Kastor

TheImmortal said:


> When a leader of another country belittles you and goes and tells the world that he will bring such wrath on your country that the world has rarely seen, the answer is not to suck up to demands to talk.
> 
> That teaches your opponent the next time he wants to talk to you, he will come at you by belittling your country and your people because that is how to get your attention. Rather than from a point of mutual respect, you will spoken to like servant.
> 
> You have a lot to learn about geopolitics.
> 
> Last I checked, when a president came at Iran from a point of mutual respect Iran sat and talked for years. It resulted in a deal (JCPOA) and Iran abiding by its terms.
> 
> What did that exactly get Iran?
> 
> NOTHING!
> 
> The US tore the paper like it wasn’t worth a damn thing! Because they decided they want more! The rest of the world followed
> their orders like good Little soldiers.
> 
> European countries that existed for centuries prior to the US, had to embarrass themselves and kneel in front of the US.
> 
> Don’t you get it? The US Empire is a war machine, it needs war/conflict to survive. Since it’s birth it has been consumed by war.
> 
> So no Iran is not hermit kingdom North Korea, it will not talk for the sake of talking. Nor will it amuse absurd demands.
> 
> So sooner or later if the US deep state doesn’t change what type of relationship they want to have with Iran, then War will come.
> 
> Unfortunately, it is not Iran’s decision anymore. The US will decide when the war starts.
> 
> Talks and negotiations is just code for surrender now.



Well you would understand why I was saying that if you knew how the U.S. government operates. In D.C. everyday is a tug of war, people on the right pulling congress towards more sanction and military action and on the left people wanting to address bigger and more important issues such N. Korea, Russian meddling etc.....when Iran does not have a presence on the scene or on TV, radio and web the other side's narrative wins. Simple as that. Russia and the U.S. were enemies for decades do you think they stopped talking to each other during that time? N. Korea was close to firing missiles over to Guam...did they refuse to meet with Trump and Pompeo? No! Iran needs to stop acting like the girl who got stood up. Grow up, diplomacy is for grown ups. We need a fluent English diplomat on U.S./ English/ Canadian TV defending our position every week...if not every day...instead our leaders act like "oh you lied to us so now were going to take our ball and go home". You say if they stop belittling us and respect us maybe then...what are you talking about?? None of that crap is necessary. You talk or meet because you try to get something in return from your rivals, even only if its just to stall for time...we don't need them to like us or smile at us and talk about Hafez. Who cares if they don't respect us, if you were the biggest economy and the biggest military in the world would you kiss another countries a$$ so they could talk to you?....this is the kind of behavior and fantasy that has hurt us for 40 years. While the Arabs and Jews economies have been flourishing.


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## AmirPatriot

Kastor said:


> Well you would understand why I was saying that if you knew how the U.S. government operates. In D.C. everyday is a tug of war, people on the right pulling congress towards more sanction and military action and on the left people wanting to address bigger and more important issues such N. Korea, Russian meddling etc.....when Iran does not have a presence on the scene or on TV, radio and web the other side's narrative wins. Simple as that. Russia and the U.S. were enemies for decades do you think they stopped talking to each other during that time? N. Korea was close to firing missiles over to Guam...did they refuse to meet with Trump and Pompeo? No! Iran needs to stop acting like the girl who got stood up. Grow up, diplomacy is for grown ups. We need a fluent English diplomat on U.S./ English/ Canadian TV defending our position every week...if not every day...instead our leaders act like "oh you lied to us so now were going to take our ball and go home". You say if they stop belittling us and respect us maybe then...what are you talking about?? None of that crap is necessary. You talk or meet because you try to get something in return from your rivals, even only if its just to stall for time...we dont need to like us or smile at us and talk about Hafez. Who cares if they don't respect us, if you were the biggest economy and the biggest military in the world would kiss another countries a$$ so they could talk to you?....this is the kind of behavior and fantasy that has hurt us for 40 years. While the Arabs and Jews economies have been flurourishing.



Screw the disrespect for a minute, the comparisons between Iran and North Korea are false. North Korea has NUKES (of the thermonuclear kind) and the ICBMs to deliver them to New York, Washington, LA, you name it. That, my friend, is LEVERAGE. They have so much darned leverage that they just dismantle an old testing facility while they keep doing what they want - building more nukes and ICBMs. Furthermore, all they were asking for was a summit. Just a summit! All Kim wanted was some legitimacy and he got it, recognised as a nuclear power.

Iran has NO leverage. Iran gave away all its leverage in the JCPOA, for benefits that were just cut off in an instant. At least if the JCPOA was still there, Iran could use the sanctions relief itself as leverage, saying that we don't need to make a deal anyway, we have what we want. Now not only do the Americans want Iran to completely delete it's nuclear program, they want us to give up our missiles and our role in Syria. All of these are Iran's ESSENTIAL interests and we're asking for a lot in return, the return of sanctions relief. Which is itself not worth the paper it is written on after what the US did to the JCPOA.

There can be no negotiation with this maximalist US unless we get our leverage back. Only then can we afford to give minor concessions like NK did.

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## Kastor

AmirPatriot said:


> Screw the disrespect for a minute, the comparisons between Iran and North Korea are false. North Korea has NUKES (of the thermonuclear kind) and the ICBMs to deliver them to New York, Washington, LA, you name it. That, my friend, is LEVERAGE. They have so much darned leverage that they just dismantle an old testing facility while they keep doing what they want - building more nukes and ICBMs. Furthermore, all they were asking for was a summit. Just a summit! All Kim wanted was some legitimacy and he got it, recognised as a nuclear power.
> 
> Iran has NO leverage. Iran gave away all its leverage in the JCPOA, for benefits that were just cut off in an instant. At least if the JCPOA was still there, Iran could use the sanctions relief itself as leverage, saying that we don't need to make a deal anyway, we have what we want. Now not only do the Americans want Iran to completely delete it's nuclear program, they want us to give up our missiles and our role in Syria. All of these are Iran's ESSENTIAL interests and we'd askingfor a lot in return, the return of sanctions relief. Which is itself not worth the paper it is written on after what the US did to the JCPOA.
> 
> There can be no negotiation with this maximalist US unless we get our leverage back. Only then can we afford to give minor concessions like NK did.


Ok, you're right about leverage but there are other leverages in play, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. The fact that they want a sit down means you got leverage. In any case, set that aside for a minute, let's say our diplomats just meet, they will lay down those ridiculous demands on the table. Our side declines and our diplomats go on tv and tell the world about the ridiculous demands. We then walkaway and let the press question the U.S. administration about the non-starter demands and if they just threw away a possible opening with Iran.


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## zectech

Kastor said:


> In D.C. everyday is a tug of war, people on the right pulling congress towards more sanction and military action and on the left people wanting to address bigger and more important issues such N. Korea, Russian meddling etc....



AIPAC pulls the strings of both sides. Remember Gaddafi was removed from power under Obama, the Democrats are nearly as warmongers as the Republicans. The JCPOA was a zionist concept to prevent Iran from developing nukes under Obama. The American people voted for Obama to be a peace president, even though there were something like 7 conflicts. A war with Iran when the American people did not vote for that would have been devastating for the war effort. To prevent a Ron Paul type candidate from winning the presidency, the zionists can't have another Vietnam War, especially when they did not vote for a war. The key is to get the public to demand a war via the jewish media indoctrination.

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## azbaroj

Kastor said:


> You misunderstood, by talking to the enemy you can stall or diffuse actions...don’t you see by the fact that Iran refusal to talk the vacuum left is being filled by the Zionist and the Gulf Arabs. This bullshit we won’t even talk is useless and amateurish, almost as useless as shouting “Margh bar America” every damn day...yeah they’re really hurting now.


US want to talk on twelve points which are basically complete surrender to US . That means if you agree to give up your missile programme , space programme , support Hezbollah , Nuclear programme and everything , and if Iran agree to these points , much more new points will be added .

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## Arminkh

Kastor said:


> Ok, you're right leverage but there are other leverages in play, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. The fact that they want a sit down means you got leverage. In any case, set that aside for a minute, let's say our diplomats just meet, they will lay down those ridiculous demands on the table. Our side declines and our diplomats go on tv and tell the world about the ridiculous demands. We then walkaway and let the press question the U.S. administration about the non-starter demands and if they just threw away a possible opening with Iran.


But they just did that, right? The world and reporters have the biggest opportunity to question US motives because they walked away from a signed agreement without cause. Has that changed anything? Does US even care (I'm talking about both government and citizens)? 
Negotiation starts when the two sides at least have some similarities in their objectives. When one side wants to strip the other side from any defensive means, and give back what? Permission to use their currency again, then that is a nonstarter. USD will eventually lose its position as the international currency and then Iran is left with a no defensive and not much gain.
I tell you why Trump wants to sit down. He wants to make the world believe that after the unethical move he made, he tried to correct it offering much better terms to Iran but evil Iran rejected that. With the massive media power they have, they can make people believe anything and again, nobody is going to ever hear why Iran didn't accept the deal.

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## AmirPatriot

Kastor said:


> Ok, you're right leverage but there are other leverages in play, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. The fact that they want a sit down means you got leverage. In any case, set that aside for a minute, let's say our diplomats just meet, they will lay down those ridiculous demands on the table. Our side declines and our diplomats go on tv and tell the world about the ridiculous demands. We then walkaway and let the press question the U.S. administration about the non-starter demands and if they just threw away a possible opening with Iran.



At best all this will do is make a the US look a bit worse on the international stage. But they can't go much lower.

Iran's strategy is to wait out this administration, hoping it only gets one term. Sitting down now, while US is telling everyone they have us where they want us, is a sign of weakness. There cannot be even the possibility of a "new deal". If the next administration is not Trump's, we don't want them to say "okay, let's pick up where the last one left off", because the sanctions would stay. We want them to reverse Trump's actions, not improve on them.

About Iraq/Syria/Yemen... at best we could end our role in Yemen (since we haven't invested much, nor will we lose much), but those 12 demands are a lot more than just Yemen. Besides, the Israeli lobby doesn't give a shit about Yemen, they'd much rather see Iran under sanctions.

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## zectech

AmirPatriot said:


> At best all this will do is make a the US look a bit worse on the international stage. But they can't go much lower.
> 
> Iran's strategy is to wait out this administration, hoping it only gets one term. Sitting down now, while US is telling everyone they have us where they want us, is a sign of weakness. There cannot be even the possibility of a "new deal". If the next administration is not Trump's, we don't want them to say "okay, let's pick up where the last one left off", because the sanctions would stay. We want them to reverse Trump's actions, not improve on them.
> 
> About Iraq/Syria/Yemen... at best we could end our role in Yemen (since we haven't invested much, nor will we lose much), but those 12 demands are a lot more than just Yemen. Besides, the Israeli lobby doesn't give a shit about Yemen, they'd much rather see Iran under sanctions.



The only thing Washington is doing is trying to get Iran into a weakened condition to invade. The same is true for North Korea, Washington wants to put Kim on the Libyan model for regime change. First make sure there are no WMDs or wmd programs, then invade.

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## Kastor

AmirPatriot said:


> At best all this will do is make a the US look a bit worse on the international stage. But they can't go much lower.
> 
> Iran's strategy is to wait out this administration, hoping it only gets one term. Sitting down now, while US is telling everyone they have us where they want us, is a sign of weakness. There cannot be even the possibility of a "new deal". If the next administration is not Trump's, we don't want them to say "okay, let's pick up where the last one left off", because the sanctions would stay. We want them to reverse Trump's actions, not improve on them.
> 
> About Iraq/Syria/Yemen... at best we could end our role in Yemen (since we haven't invested much, nor will we lose much), but those 12 demands are a lot more than just Yemen. Besides, the Israeli lobby doesn't give a shit about Yemen, they'd much rather see Iran under sanctions.


Absolutely correct...I like your thinking. We can agree and disagree, maybe not have a summit but have a representative on TV telling people that we agreed to a deal and for the first time in U.S. history, a president nullified a deal without cause....we can also tell the people here that if we had not intervened ISIS would own Iraq, Syria and who knows where else. We can remind people that our neighbors are armed to the teeth and hellbent on our destruction while the U.S. is demanding we give up our missile program. You see this whole side of the story is missing in the media, this is not the fault of the Zionist...this is our fault. We need to be in front of the negative stories.....before any laws and sanctions or even military action the zionists wage a media war. In this war we don't even have an army! Also you're correct about AIPAC, Israel's number one asset in the White House Mr. Jared Kushner along with the now disgraced Bannon are responsible for the whole deal unraveling....Bannon is gone, and the FBI is closing in on Mr. Kushner...After Kushner's indictment you will see the focus shift away from Iran. In the mean time my main point is still valid, you keep talking and air opposing views in the US media. Let the free press help us, the entire media conglomerate is not owned by the Zionist yet. There are some very smart people in the government and scholarly circles here in the U.S. that don't like the massive Israeli influence in their foreign policy....we need to help them by giving them a narrative. by not talking and by not having a rep here in the U.S. is closing the doors on those facts and truths. This kind of silence will not help the people in the government here that want a different policy toward Iran. Israel wants the U.S. to do sacrifice even more blood and treasure for them. The people in these intelligence and military circles are getting sick of it.



zectech said:


> The only thing Washington is doing is trying to get Iran into a weakened condition to invade. The same is true for North Korea, Washington wants to put Kim on the Libyan model for regime change. First make sure there are no WMDs or wmd programs, then invade.


No there is no invasion on the table....this is just bluster. U.S. does not want another war in the Mideast...however, if we give them a reason they will bomb the sh it out of our assests and infrastructure. Why? because Trump needs a reason to turn the focus away from himself, and nothing does that like a bombing campaign playing out on TV 24/7. So let's be smart. Enough of this amateurish policy of "We won't talk to the Great Satan"....Again before the less than sharp set jump all over this as surrender or appeasement, I'm not advocating giving up anything with our Nuclear energy or missile program...they can ask, even demand but we don't have to give them anything. All I'm saying if that it's smart to have a different narrative than the Zionist one in D.C.

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## zectech

Kastor said:


> No there is no invasion on the table....this is just bluster. U.S. does not want another war in the Mideast...however, if we give them a reason they will bomb the sh it out of our assests and infrastructure. Why? because Trump needs a reason to turn the focus away from himself, and nothing does that like a bombing campaign playing out on TV 24/7. So let's be smart. Enough of this amateurish policy of "We won't talk to the Great Satan"....Again before the less than sharp set jump all over this as surrender or appeasement, I'm not advocating giving up anything with our Nuclear energy or missile program...they can ask, even demand but we don't have to give them anything. All I'm saying if that it's smart to have a different narrative than the Zionist one in D.C.



Washington: don't develop nukes and we won't attack
Iran: Ok
Washington: don't develop any more missile and we won't attack
Iran: Ok
Washington: don't develop any more air defenses and we won't attack
Iran: Ok
Washington: disarm all your missiles and we won't attack
Iran: Ok
Washington: disarm all your air defenses and we won't attack
Iran: Ok
Washington: Get rid of your mullahs and we won't attack
Iran: No.

Iran attacked.

Here is the evil that Iran is facing...






Trump is a closet neo-con. A Muslim hating neo-con. And they only get worse than Trump in the other options on the Right. The Republican Primary in 2016 was a bunch of McCains vs Trump. They all want to bomb Iran. Negociate with Washington and you are dealing with your enemy who is plotting your death. Who was the last country Iran attacked and invaded with their armed forces. You have to go back to the 1800s or something.

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## Valeriu

zectech said:


> Washington: don't develop nukes and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: don't develop any more missile and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: don't develop any more air defenses and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: disarm all your missiles and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: disarm all your air defenses and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: Get rid of your mullahs and we won't attack
> Iran: No.
> 
> Iran attacked.




The mullahs are destroying Iran.Iran needs to go back to its roots,before being conquered by an ideology spread by homeless deserrt dwellers....shia/sunni....it s all the same crap,they need to be Sassanids/Persians again.

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## Kastor

zectech said:


> Washington: don't develop nukes and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: don't develop any more missile and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: don't develop any more air defenses and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: disarm all your missiles and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: disarm all your air defenses and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: Get rid of your mullahs and we won't attack
> Iran: No.
> 
> Iran attacked.


My friend.....if they want to attack they can attack...they don't need any reason. They can create one with a nice false flag operation. This is all a fantasy. This is what I've saying for the past 3-4 posts. There are people in the government in the U.S. that don't want and will prevent a war on Iran. Why? Because in a real democracy there are 3 or 4 different sides to every action. They need to have buy-in from congress to attack, I've been hearing about an invasion since the Bush Presidency. This is why nothing can get done here, because the center of power in this democracy is split up between the President, congress and the court system. They need to get the votes to attack Iran or Iran needs to attack an asset of theirs before they have the authorisation to attack Iran. Anyway, this is all just elementary stuff.


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## zectech

Washington fears Iran. Fears a war with Iran because Iran is doing things right. Especially in missile tech, which is what Trump is after next.


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## Kastor

Arminkh said:


> But they just did that, right? The world and reporters have the biggest opportunity to question US motives because they walked away from a signed agreement without cause. Has that changed anything? Does US even care (I'm talking about both government and citizens)?
> Negotiation starts when the two sides at least have some similarities in their objectives. When one side wants to strip the other side from any defensive means, and give back what? Permission to use their currency again, then that is a nonstarter. USD will eventually lose its position as the international currency and then Iran is left with a no defensive and not much gain.
> I tell you why Trump wants to sit down. He wants to make the world believe that after the unethical move he made, he tried to correct it offering much better terms to Iran but evil Iran rejected that. With the massive media power they have, they can make people believe anything and again, nobody is going to ever hear why Iran didn't accept the deal.


If you lived here you would seen the amount of coverage....again, I'm getting tired of repeating this, if there is no other story, the story that the Zionist and anti-iran people put out wins! Where is our ambassadors and Attaches, the Zionist have the strongest lobby in the world operating here......the Arabs (SA and UAE) have professional PR firms spreading money in D.C. to change policy to favor them....what do we do? Oh yeah...we got Friday prayer with Mr. Big mouth. Please everyone..Stop replying to me about how evil the U.S. is....I know, I'm a student of history. All I'm saying is before any action in the government here you must win in the press and the court of public opinion. The Israelis are masters at this game. We need smart, worldly people around all the important foreign capitals spouting our side of the story....every freaking day! If you're not doing that than you are a goldfish trying to swim with sharks.

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## zectech

Kastor said:


> If you lived here you would seen the amount of coverage....again, I'm getting tired of repeating this, if there is no other story, the story that the Zionist and anti-iran people put out wins! Where is our ambassadors and Attaches, the Zionist have the strongest lobby in the world operating here......the Arabs (SA and UAE) have professional PR firms spreading money in D.C. to change policy to favor them....what do we do? Oh yeah...we got Friday prayer with Mr. Big mouth. Please everyone..Stop replying to me about how evil the U.S. is....I know, I'm a student of history. All I'm saying is before any action in the government here you must win in the press and the court of public opinion. The Israelis are masters at this game. We need smart, worldly people around all the important foreign capitals spouting our side of the story....every freaking day! If you're not doing that than you are a goldfish trying to swim with sharks.



The press:

















I am not saying don't try, but good luck getting invited by the Kosher Nostra on one of their TV "shows". The whole media is either jew or zionist.

You can always call C-SPAN:






They don't even want to invite their own Alex Jones on their jewish press shows so they don't lose credibility with the public in their mass indoctrination and mind control. Alex Jones is there to catch anyone who dislikes the 'liberal' media and wants something different. With Alex, you get zionism and warmongering and crazy conspiracy theories. Alex is there to keep the public on the zionist reservation, and not ask questions like why does Washington support the murder of Palestinians.

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## Kastor

zectech said:


> The press:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not saying don't try, but good luck getting invited by the Kosher Nostra on one of their TV "shows". The whole media is either jew or zionist.


You're not telling anything I don't already know. Jews are smart, they're in all the important organs in the U.S. Media, Hollywood, Wall Street, Medicine, Law, Insurance....etc etc. But you'll also be happy to know that some of those Jews are not in Israel's pocket....they're Americans who report the truth. I watch them closely everyday I know which are the hacks and which are the real journalists. Yes, you keep trying anyway...you don't not even try just because they're controlling most of the narrative.

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## Arminkh

Kastor said:


> If you lived here you would seen the amount of coverage....again, I'm getting tired of repeating this, if there is no other story, the story that the Zionist and anti-iran people put out wins! Where is our ambassadors and Attaches, the Zionist have the strongest lobby in the world operating here......the Arabs (SA and UAE) have professional PR firms spreading money in D.C. to change policy to favor them....what do we do? Oh yeah...we got Friday prayer with Mr. Big mouth. Please everyone..Stop replying to me about how evil the U.S. is....I know, I'm a student of history. All I'm saying is before any action in the government here you must win in the press and the court of public opinion. The Israelis are masters at this game. We need smart, worldly people around all the important foreign capitals spouting our side of the story....every freaking day! If you're not doing that than you are a goldfish trying to swim with sharks.


I get what you say, believe me. Zionists are a totally different story, then own US. SA and UAE can do it because they are allowed to. Tell me, how can we repeat what they are doing? Zarif is writing OpEds in New York Times and other media. But would they allow us to go and hire a PR firm in Us? Would they let us buy one of their media companies to use that to get our opinions in front of people? Would they let us have cultural fairs? Forget about Iran. Would they let Russia do that? North Korea? Syria?

You see, your free to do what you want to do in US as long as you are aligned with them or one of their poppets. Former Shah was able to do that because Iran was simply a US colony back then, so are KSA and UAE now.

P.S. I need to add: To be fair, I believe what Trump is doing with Iran is aligned with US's interests and I also believe any US citizen in his or her right mind should prevent Iran from becoming powerful. 

Iran has the potential to become a world power, even a super power because it has all the right ingredients. And when that happens, US no longer would have control over Western Asia.

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## zectech

My point is the jewish media won't allow an Iranian voice in Amerika. You know little about the Russian Press and it pernicious influence in the world.

Back to my original point, Iran should never rely on Putin and Russia for anything, especially transfer of technology or getting the latest missile systems or missile defense systems. That goes against the interest of Netanyahu. Netanyahu pulls the strings of Putin. Putin will sell S-400s to India, but not to Iran, nor send old S-300s to Assad. Putin would never sell any 3M22s to Iran this century. Washington would sell them to the Shah. That's real loyalty.

If Iran were in a civil war, Putin would join in to kill some Muslims, that is what Putin does.


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## Kastor

Arminkh said:


> I get what you say, believe me. Zionists are a totally different story, then own US. SA and UAE can do it because they are allowed to. Tell me, how can we repeat what they are doing? Zarif is writing OpEds in New York Times and other media. But would they allow us to go and hire a PR firm in Us? Would they let us buy one of their media companies to use that to get our opinions in front of people? Would they let us have cultural fairs? Forget about Iran. Would they let Russia do that? North Korea? Syria?
> 
> You see, your free to do what you want to do in US as long as you are aligned with them or one of their poppets. Former Shah was able to do that because Iran was simply a US colony back then, so are KSA and UAE now.
> 
> P.S. I need to add: To be fair, I believe what Trump is doing with Iran is aligned with US's interests and I also believe any US citizen in his or her right mind should prevent Iran from becoming powerful.
> 
> Iran has the potential to become a world power, even a super power because it has all the right ingredients. And when that happens, US no longer would have control over Western Asia.


Short answer, foregin lobby is legal in the U.S. as long as you register yourself as such. Also you can hire a PR firm to put commercial on TV telling people the Iran deal was good, the NY Jews setup the UANI lobby https://www.unitedagainstnucleariran.com/ they ran commercials on tv when Trump won to change people's mind here about the deal.....it worked! Also there are many paid bloggers, reporters that get paid by writing anti-iran pieces. One of them was the editor of WSJ Bret Stephens, the other major hack was Jennifer Rubin with an weekly article called "The Right Turn" these people actually get paid to write anti iran stuff every few weeks. I think they may be getting paid secretly because they would lose their credibility if it ever became public that they are Israeli paid collaborators. There are at least another half dozen columnists that fit this bill. How do I know, trust me it's easy to spot it when you read everything that comes out on the web on Iran. Then you can see the same narrative repeated over and over as if they got their talking points from one source. Too bad the FBI doesn't look into these agents, because they are no different than spies.

PS: there are some powerful israeli shils in the U.S.
J. Matthew McInnis
State Department
POLICY PLANNING STAFF
Term of Appointment: 09/2017 to present

Matthew Kroenig
Deputy Director for Strategy, Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security

Reuel Marc Gerecht
Ex CIA analyst, major Israeli spook

Ray Takeyh
Hasib J. Sabbagh Senior Fellow for Middle East Studies

Mark Dubowitz
Foundation for The Defence of Democracies (Israeli spy nest)
what a joke cause he's undermining the Democracy in the U.S.
Everyone at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies....all of these guys are in bed with actual congressmen and woman. Right under the nose of the FBI.

Senator Donnelly, Sen Cotton, Sen. Cornyn, Sen. Ted Cruz, Sen Jon Kyl, Mr. Pompeo himself. Sen. Clair Mckaskill, Sen. Menendez, Sen Sherrod Brown..etc..etc. There also some new comers that they are showering with money hoping to use them when they get more famous, one of them is the Democratic star Beto O'rourke
All of this and much much more right under the nose of the FBI and Justice department....you have to say Bravo. Poor Americans they don't even stand a chance.

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## WinterNights

Could you lot not take the thread off track? What does most of the recent posts have to do with this thread?

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## T-72B

zectech said:


> Washington: don't develop nukes and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: don't develop any more missile and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: don't develop any more air defenses and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: disarm all your missiles and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: disarm all your air defenses and we won't attack
> Iran: Ok
> Washington: Get rid of your mullahs and we won't attack
> Iran: No.
> 
> Iran attacked.
> 
> Here is the evil that Iran is facing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump is a closet neo-con. A Muslim hating neo-con. And they only get worse than Trump in the other options on the Right. The Republican Primary in 2016 was a bunch of McCains vs Trump. They all want to bomb Iran. Negociate with Washington and you are dealing with your enemy who is plotting your death. Who was the last country Iran attacked and invaded with their armed forces. You have to go back to the 1800s or something.


Thank God McCain dead i give respect to his tumor

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## skyshadow

هم اکنون شلیک چندین موشک به سمت عراق که در اسمان اذربایجان دیده شدند


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## T-72B

skyshadow said:


> هم اکنون شلیک چندین موشک به سمت عراق که در اسمان اذربایجان دیده شدند
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


What type of the missiles are? Fateh 110?


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## AmirPatriot

Kastor said:


> have a representative on TV telling people that we agreed to a deal and for the first time in U.S. history, a president nullified a deal without cause....we can also tell the people here that if we had not intervened ISIS would own Iraq, Syria and who knows where else. We can remind people that our neighbors are armed to the teeth and hellbent on our destruction while the U.S. is demanding we give up our missile program. You see this whole side of the story is missing in the media, this is not the fault of the Zionist...this is our fault. We need to be in front of the negative stories.....before any laws and sanctions or even military action the zionists wage a media war. In this war we don't even have an army! Also you're correct about AIPAC, Israel's number one asset in the White House Mr. Jared Kushner along with the now disgraced Bannon are responsible for the whole deal unraveling....Bannon is gone, and the FBI is closing in on Mr. Kushner...After Kushner's indictment you will see the focus shift away from Iran. In the mean time my main point is still valid, you keep talking and air opposing views in the US media. Let the free press help us, the entire media conglomerate is not owned by the Zionist yet. There are some very smart people in the government and scholarly circles here in the U.S. that don't like the massive Israeli influence in their foreign policy....we need to help them by giving them a narrative. by not talking and by not having a rep here in the U.S. is closing the doors on those facts and truths. This kind of silence will not help the people in the government here that want a different policy toward Iran. Israel wants the U.S. to do sacrifice even more blood and treasure for them. The people in these intelligence and military circles are getting sick of it.



We're already doing this and I believe the narrative is largely on our side, with everyone recognising what a huge injustice Trump has dealt. But for now it cannot do anything, as the US can still sanction somewhat effectively. But the narrative being on our side will pay off if/when Trump loses the next election (hopefully replaced by a dem), which could result in the next administration reversing all Trump did.

But if Trump wins a second term, Iran may have to take drastic measures.



T-72B said:


> What type of the missiles are? Fateh 110?



I believe the current theory is Fajr-5C, but I'm a bit suspicious of that because of the range.

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## skyshadow

T-72B said:


> What type of the missiles are? Fateh 110?



It is not clear yet, but it seems that the fateh 110 and the Fajr 5 guided missile have been used


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## raptor22

AmirPatriot said:


> We're already doing this and I believe the narrative is largely on our side, with everyone recognising what a huge injustice Trump has dealt. But for now it cannot do anything, as the US can still sanction somewhat effectively. But the narrative being on our side will pay off if/when Trump loses the next election (hopefully replaced by a dem), which could result in the next administration reversing all Trump did.
> 
> But if Trump wins a second term, Iran may have to take drastic measures.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the current theory is Fajr-5C, but I'm a bit suspicious of that because of the range.


180 kms


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## VEVAK

AmirPatriot said:


> We're already doing this and I believe the narrative is largely on our side, with everyone recognising what a huge injustice Trump has dealt. But for now it cannot do anything, as the US can still sanction somewhat effectively. But the narrative being on our side will pay off if/when Trump loses the next election (hopefully replaced by a dem), which could result in the next administration reversing all Trump did.
> 
> But if Trump wins a second term, Iran may have to take drastic measures.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the current theory is Fajr-5C, but I'm a bit suspicious of that because of the range.




Did you see the creator???????? Fajr-5's don't have that much destructive power! Even if Iran was to build a 2 stage version of the Fajr-5 that may be able to achieve the range, the destructive power needed to make that much damage would NOT be there!!! To top that off Fajr-5's are not something Iran would fire against terrorist from over 100km inside it's own territory 
Most likely than not it's the Fatteh-110 family which is a missile Iran has been producing since 2002 and has a considerable stockpile of


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Did you see the creator???????? Fajr-5's don't have that much destructive power! Even if Iran was to build a 2 stage version of the Fajr-5 that may be able to achieve the range, the destructive power needed to make that much damage would NOT be there!!! To top that off Fajr-5's are not something Iran would fire against terrorist from over 100km inside it's own territory
> Most likely than not it's the Fatteh-110 family which is a missile Iran has been producing since 2002 and has a considerable stockpile of



Wrong!

This was IRGC Ground Forces operations aka IRGC Army.

Fateh 110 and BM’s are in control of IRGC Aerospace Command.

Furthermore, from the Instagram videos you can clearly see smoke trails and a low altitude ROCKET both while en route and upon launch from an MLRS like systems

Fateh-110 take a parabolic launch and launch at a much steeper angle. 

Furthermore, they wouldn’t be recorded in flight as they traveling certainly with no smoke trail, because they are quasi-BM and thus reentrying at Mach 5+

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## yavar




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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> It is not clear yet, but it seems that the fateh 110 and the Fajr 5 guided missile have been used
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


This is amazing accuracy! Who needs bombers with this kind of accuracy?



TheImmortal said:


> Wrong!
> 
> This was IRGC Ground Forces operations aka IRGC Army.
> 
> Fateh 110 and BM’s are in control of IRGC Aerospace Command.
> 
> Furthermore, from the Instagram videos you can clearly see smoke trails and a low altitude ROCKET both while en route and upon launch from an MLRS like systems
> 
> Fateh-110 take a parabolic launch and launch at a much steeper angle.
> 
> Furthermore, they wouldn’t be recorded in flight as they traveling certainly with no smoke trail, because they are quasi-BM and thus reentrying at Mach 5+


Could they be Ya Ali cruise missiles? You can see one of the missile trusters going off rout in one of the videos

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## TheImmortal

Arminkh said:


> This is amazing accuracy! Who needs bombers with this kind of accuracy?
> 
> 
> Could they be Ya Ali cruise missiles? You can see one of the missile trusters going off rout in one of the videos



Unlikely, there is no indications Ya Ali cruise missiles are even operational.

The fast rapid fire rate points to an MLRS rocket system. Could be Fajr or Zelzal series or possibly a new improved rocket system. What’s intresting is the clean white smoke, it could be solid fuel using maybe a new propellant. I thought that Fajr and Zelzal had darker smoke exhausts.

Also Fateh’s cannot be fired that rapidly from a single TEL and would produce a lot more exhaust upon ignition. 

Furthermore, i doubt Iran would be firing BMs near civilian roads for various reasons or keep TELS so closely next to one another For safety reasons.

Iran has a history of using rockets and artillery to target terrorists dating back decades.

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## Websorber

*Iran able to export rockets solid fuel know-how*

*http://www.irna.ir/en/News/83027453*

*




*


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## yavar

اختصاصی: اطلاعات جدید از عملیات موشکی سپاه علیه تروریست‌ها در اربیل/ شلیک ۷ فروند موشک فاتح۱۱۰ از فاصله ۲۲۰کیلومتری
به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم، روز گذشته سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی با 7 فروند موشک زمین به زمین کوتاه‌برد فاتح 110 ــ B، مواضع تروریست‌های حزب دموکرات کردستان را با موفقیت هدف قرار داد.
این عملیات مهم، توسط یگان موشکی نیروی هوافضای سپاه انجام شده است و همزمان پهپادهای نیروی زمینی سپاه پاسداران نیز در آن مشارکت داشته‌اند.
تصاویر و فیلم‌هایی که توسط تروریست‌ها از این عملیات موشکی منتشر شده است، نشان می‌دهد که موشک‌های با دقت بسیار بالا به اهداف اصابت کرده و منجر به هلاکت بسیاری از سران و نیروهای این گروهک تروریستی شده است.
http://tn.ai/1824221

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## TheImmortal

yavar said:


> اختصاصی: اطلاعات جدید از عملیات موشکی سپاه علیه تروریست‌ها در اربیل/ شلیک ۷ فروند موشک فاتح۱۱۰ از فاصله ۲۲۰کیلومتری
> به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری تسنیم، روز گذشته سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی با 7 فروند موشک زمین به زمین کوتاه‌برد فاتح 110 ــ B، مواضع تروریست‌های حزب دموکرات کردستان را با موفقیت هدف قرار داد.
> این عملیات مهم، توسط یگان موشکی نیروی هوافضای سپاه انجام شده است و همزمان پهپادهای نیروی زمینی سپاه پاسداران نیز در آن مشارکت داشته‌اند.
> تصاویر و فیلم‌هایی که توسط تروریست‌ها از این عملیات موشکی منتشر شده است، نشان می‌دهد که موشک‌های با دقت بسیار بالا به اهداف اصابت کرده و منجر به هلاکت بسیاری از سران و نیروهای این گروهک تروریستی شده است.
> http://tn.ai/1824221



Guess @VEVAK was right, I was incorrect 

F-110 was used. Unless this video is about a different operation, my Farsi isn’t that great.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Guess @VEVAK was right, I was incorrect
> 
> F-110 was used. Unless this video is about a different operation, my Farsi isn’t that great.



It is NOT a different operation & it's headline news today with confirmation that it was Fatteh-110 variants that were launched are large guided rocket artilleries, an upgraded Zelzal basically 
https://www.tasnimnews.com/

1st WHY would Iran fire MLRS from it's missile base on the eastern side of Urumieh lake into Iraq about 220km away????
2nd standard Farj-5's only have a 90kg payload (~200lb) so there is NO WAY they could have that much destructive power using conventional warheads and the destructive power shown was for a warhead 5 times that size! Plus unless a 2 stage or 1.5 stage with increased gliding capability of the Fajr-5 is built they wouldn't be able to achieve a range above 200km and due to the size of the payload you would need a CEP of under 5 meters at over 200km for it to be worth the additional cost 
3rd The trajectory they took was standard for it's range and type of missile that was launched plus with the Fatteh-110 as long as you launch near 45 degrees the missile it's self should have the capability to adjust trajectory post launch allowing you to reduce launch time

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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> This is amazing accuracy! Who needs bombers with this kind of accuracy?
> 
> 
> Could they be Ya Ali cruise missiles? You can see one of the missile trusters going off rout in one of the videos



They were the Fatteh-110's and Iran fired 7 missiles and only 3 landed where they were spose too plus they were fatteh110 one the most accurate Ballistic Missile in our arsenal just imagine if we had to fire 7 missiles at single terrorist compound to simply take out a section of that facility how many missiles at an Air Force bases over 700km from Iranian soil would it take to disable an Air Base?

And that's why Iran needs Bombers, strike aircraft & Air Superiority fighters to protect them! Not for targets within ~500km of Iran but for targets beyond! FYI a Single F-4 flown from Tabriz Could have dropped up to 18 500lb PGM's that would have wiped out that entire facility 

Now if Iran could build a large enough fleet of UCAV's that can fly most of the way autonomously and deliver sufficient payload per sortie with a combat radius of 1000km then yes


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## raptor22

VEVAK said:


> They were the Fatteh-110's and Iran fired 7 missiles and only 3 landed where they were spose too plus they were fatteh110 one the most accurate Ballistic Missile in our arsenal just imagine if we had to fire 7 missiles at single terrorist compound to simply take out a section of that facility how many missiles at an Air Force bases over 700km from Iranian soil would it take to disable an Air Base?
> 
> And that's why Iran needs Bombers, strike aircraft & Air Superiority fighters to protect them! Not for targets within ~500km of Iran but for targets beyond! FYI a Single F-4 flown from Tabriz Could have dropped up to 18 500lb PGM's that would have wiped out that entire facility
> 
> Now if Iran could build a large enough fleet of UCAV's that can fly most of the way autonomously and deliver sufficient payload per sortie with a combat radius of 1000km then yes


در صد خطا که بالاست


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## arashkamangir

raptor22 said:


> در صد خطا که بالاست


No please look through the forums stop spread misinformation. There were two seperate regions:
: 1.
The castle: footages show the direct hit in thr intended regions, look at the hit cluster density
2. Some other region which received direct hits but a much sparser cluster. This is visible from the footage that shows 3-4 smoke clouds rising at distance from.each other.


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## VEVAK

raptor22 said:


> در صد خطا که بالاست



Doorosteh ballast! But its normal and it is not a problem specific to Iran rather a general problem with Ballistic Missiles!

CEP's of ballistic missiles like this are usually calculated by ~50% of your missiles missing hell even Air to Air missiles and SAM's if possible and there aren't too many targets they are usually fired in tandem against a single target 
Although with newer missiles they have reduced that percentage but still there are too many things that could go wrong especially with Ballistic Missiles because even today in modern countries with SLV's that don't have to bother with reentry that have 100 people working on a single launch and a team of highly educated engineers inspecting every inch of the missiles and conduct various pre launch test, a team working on micro meteors & space debris, a team working on weather and atmospheric conditions, and various advanced sensors focused on a single launch… even than achieving an 80% success rate is a relatively high success rate for most countries 

By the way according to VOA the American had made assurances to shoot down any Iranian missile that fly's into Iraqi Kurdistan and yet Iran managed to hit it's target 

And at the very least it shows that if produced in a significant amount Iran can take out any target within 500km of Iranian soil but to make up for our lack of Airpower and to be able to take out Air bases using Missiles Iran would have to produce them at rates of ~1000 per year for each class Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar with 100 Tel's per year for each class & 4-5 new large missile bases per year​


arashkamangir said:


> No please look through the forums stop spread misinformation. There were two seperate regions:
> : 1.
> The castle: footages show the direct hit in thr intended regions, look at the hit cluster density
> 2. Some other region which received direct hits but a much sparser cluster. This is visible from the footage that shows 3-4 smoke clouds rising at distance from.each other.



A 50% success rate with Ballistic Missiles is a NORMAL success rate for BM and Iran fired 7 Missiles of which 2 were direct hits and another 2 fell within 20 meters of the Missiles intended CEP which I would count as half hits so 3 out of 7 total

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## raptor22

VEVAK said:


> Doorosteh ballast! But its normal and it is not a problem specific to Iran rather a general problem with Ballistic Missiles!
> 
> CEP's of ballistic missiles like this are usually calculated by ~50% of your missiles missing hell even Air to Air missiles and SAM's if possible and there aren't too many targets they are usually fired in tandem against a single target
> Although with newer missiles they have reduced that percentage but still there are too many things that could go wrong especially with Ballistic Missiles because even today in modern countries with SLV's that don't have to bother with reentry that have 100 people working on a single launch and a team of highly educated engineers inspecting every inch of the missiles and conduct various pre launch test, a team working on micro meteors & space debris, a team working on weather and atmospheric conditions, and various advanced sensors focused on a single launch… even than achieving an 80% success rate is a relatively high success rate for most countries
> 
> By the way according to VOA the American had made assurances to shoot down any Iranian missile that fly's into Iraqi Kurdistan and yet Iran managed to hit it's target
> 
> And at the very least it shows that if produced in a significant amount Iran can take out any target within 500km of Iranian soil but to make up for our lack of Airpower and to be able to take out Air bases using Missiles Iran would have to produce them at rates of ~1000 per year for each class Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar with 100 Tel's per year for each class & 4-5 new large missile bases per year​
> 
> 
> A 50% success rate with Ballistic Missiles is a NORMAL success rate for BM and Iran fired 7 Missiles of which 2 were direct hits and another 2 fell within 20 meters of the Missiles intended CEP which I would count as half hits so 3 out of 7 total


بعضی ها می گن تعداد شلیک ها بیشتر از این بوده ..


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## Bahram Esfandiari

raptor22 said:


> بعضی ها می گن تعداد شلیک ها بیشتر از این بوده ..


Have you yourself seen any evidence to back up such claims?


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## arashkamangir

VEVAK said:


> Doorosteh ballast! But its normal and it is not a problem specific to Iran rather a general problem with Ballistic Missiles!
> 
> CEP's of ballistic missiles like this are usually calculated by ~50% of your missiles missing hell even Air to Air missiles and SAM's if possible and there aren't too many targets they are usually fired in tandem against a single target
> Although with newer missiles they have reduced that percentage but still there are too many things that could go wrong especially with Ballistic Missiles because even today in modern countries with SLV's that don't have to bother with reentry that have 100 people working on a single launch and a team of highly educated engineers inspecting every inch of the missiles and conduct various pre launch test, a team working on micro meteors & space debris, a team working on weather and atmospheric conditions, and various advanced sensors focused on a single launch… even than achieving an 80% success rate is a relatively high success rate for most countries
> 
> By the way according to VOA the American had made assurances to shoot down any Iranian missile that fly's into Iraqi Kurdistan and yet Iran managed to hit it's target
> 
> And at the very least it shows that if produced in a significant amount Iran can take out any target within 500km of Iranian soil but to make up for our lack of Airpower and to be able to take out Air bases using Missiles Iran would have to produce them at rates of ~1000 per year for each class Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar with 100 Tel's per year for each class & 4-5 new large missile bases per year​
> 
> 
> A 50% success rate with Ballistic Missiles is a NORMAL success rate for BM and Iran fired 7 Missiles of which 2 were direct hits and another 2 fell within 20 meters of the Missiles intended CEP which I would count as half hits so 3 out of 7 total



@VEVAK you are making these analysis base on zero empirical evidence. You do not know where targets were and where impacts occured with respect to them. I saw footage of direct hit to building, front of it and back of it.


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## VEVAK

arashkamangir said:


> @VEVAK you are making these analysis base on zero empirical evidence. You do not know where targets were and where impacts occured with respect to them. I saw footage of direct hit to building, front of it and back of it.



Even if as you say I didn't know, the info has been made public!
1st Images from multi hits on the headquarters whos width was no more than 20 meters that would have required a missiles with a CEP of under 10 meters 
2nd A missile that hit in the Middle of the training compound ~20 meters off mark from intended CEP that the terrorist call a refugee center was shown by IRAN with UAV images made public by Iran 
3rd A terrorist house that was hit info again made public by the terrorist themselves 
4th 2 clear misses with 2 clear missile failures 

Which in total is about a 50% success rate which again is fairly standard rate with Ballistic Missiles


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## Arminkh

To end doubts, about the accuracy of the missiles, IRGC has issued some clarifications on where the other 4 missiles headed:

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/892377/مستندات-اصابت-موشک-های-سپاه-به-مواضع-تروریست-های-حدکا-عکس-و

Apparently there is a training camp belonging to the same group that was hit by the other 4 missiles. Camp is shown with number 2:







First and 2nd missile hitting their targets:

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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> To end doubts, about the accuracy of the missiles, IRGC has issued some clarifications on where the other 4 missiles headed:
> 
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/892377/مستندات-اصابت-موشک-های-سپاه-به-مواضع-تروریست-های-حدکا-عکس-و
> 
> Apparently there is a training camp belonging to the same group that was hit by the other 4 missiles. Camp is shown with number 2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First and 2nd missile hitting their targets:



Iran had multiple hits on the headquarters and got a near 100% success rate in terms of targeting and hitting it's primary target!!!!!!
And IRGC likely used a more advanced version of the Fatteh like the Fatteh Mobin against it's primary target that was mainly the leadership and command level guys but likely used a less expensive version on the rest for they were not primary targets like the Training compound which Iran managed to hit but not exactly where they wanted & according to the Kurdish terrorist one of the houses of their guys was also hit and more likely than not a command level terrorist.

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## Hack-Hook

Arminkh said:


> To end doubts, about the accuracy of the missiles, IRGC has issued some clarifications on where the other 4 missiles headed:
> 
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/892377/مستندات-اصابت-موشک-های-سپاه-به-مواضع-تروریست-های-حدکا-عکس-و
> 
> Apparently there is a training camp belonging to the same group that was hit by the other 4 missiles. Camp is shown with number 2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First and 2nd missile hitting their targets:


still there is no news on what happened to two missile , 4 hit the target , 1 deviated after launch and self destructed twostill missing.
well on plus side these were Fatih-110b from more than a decade ago


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> still there is no news on what happened to two missile , 4 hit the target , 1 deviated after launch and self destructed twostill missing.
> well on plus side these were Fatih-110b from more than a decade ago



For the primary target I believe Iran used the Mobin's because to hit a building like that multiple times exactly where the meeting took place would have "required" a CEP of under 10 meters!!!!!!!!
And people can say what they want but achieving a CEP of 10 meters with multiple hits would be high accuracy even on a subsonic cruise missile with 700lb warhead let alone a supersonic ballistic missile with a 1000lb warhead and near the missiles max effective range!!!!!!!!






Just so people understand what that means in terms of military targets this is what a small Aircraft bunker looks like





Normal Runway's






Docked FAC Missile Boat or patrol boat



SAM TeL's & Radar





Off shore Oil rigs 



10 meter CEP with a Ballistic Missile with 1000lb warhead is all the Precision targeting Iran would ever need to hit any fixed target with it's ballistic or cruise missiles 

The rest is just a matter of how many missiles you can produce and launch

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> For the primary target I believe Iran used the Mobin's because to hit a building like that multiple times exactly where the meeting took place would have "required" a CEP of under 10 meters!!!!!!!!
> And people can say what they want but achieving a CEP of 10 meters with multiple hits would be high accuracy even on a subsonic cruise missile with 700lb warhead let alone a supersonic ballistic missile with a 1000lb warhead and near the missiles max effective range!!!!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 498227
> 
> 
> Just so people understand what that means in terms of military targets this is what a small Aircraft bunker looks like
> View attachment 498228
> 
> 
> Normal Runway's
> 
> View attachment 498231
> 
> 
> Docked FAC Missile Boat or patrol boat
> View attachment 498232
> 
> 
> SAM TeL's & Radar
> 
> View attachment 498234
> View attachment 498233
> 
> 
> Off shore Oil rigs
> View attachment 498235
> 
> 
> 10 meter CEP with a Ballistic Missile with 1000lb warhead is all the Precision targeting Iran would ever need to hit any fixed target with it's ballistic or cruise missiles
> 
> The rest is just a matter of how many missiles you can produce and launch


the Mobin warhead is different did any of the missile in the video had that warhead?


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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> the Mobin warhead is different did any of the missile in the video had that warhead?



He is confused. The Mobin warhead isn’t some super duper PGM. It simply is a land target based version of the Khalij Fars missile seeker.

During terminal phase the warhead corrects itself based on comparing the surroundings to the actual target and then to the target image in its memory. Adjustments are made if the warhead is off trajectory.

While it’s possible both missiles hit the same GPS/GLONASS target. It is also possible the intial explosion is the warhead of a single missile penetrating the building and the subsequent is the detonation of warhead based on delay fuse.

Another possibility is a secondary explosion triggered if there was a gas line, explosives, etc in that section of the building.

Any claim that the Mobin seeker corrected itself to a SPECIFIC ROOM is simply without merit when presented without proof.


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## Arminkh

VEVAK said:


> For the primary target I believe Iran used the Mobin's because to hit a building like that multiple times exactly where the meeting took place would have "required" a CEP of under 10 meters!!!!!!!!
> And people can say what they want but achieving a CEP of 10 meters with multiple hits would be high accuracy even on a subsonic cruise missile with 700lb warhead let alone a supersonic ballistic missile with a 1000lb warhead and near the missiles max effective range!!!!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 498227
> 
> 
> Just so people understand what that means in terms of military targets this is what a small Aircraft bunker looks like
> View attachment 498228
> 
> 
> Normal Runway's
> 
> View attachment 498231
> 
> 
> Docked FAC Missile Boat or patrol boat
> View attachment 498232
> 
> 
> SAM TeL's & Radar
> 
> View attachment 498234
> View attachment 498233
> 
> 
> Off shore Oil rigs
> View attachment 498235
> 
> 
> 10 meter CEP with a Ballistic Missile with 1000lb warhead is all the Precision targeting Iran would ever need to hit any fixed target with it's ballistic or cruise missiles
> 
> The rest is just a matter of how many missiles you can produce and launch


Do you think they marked the target with laser using drones? The accuracy is still too high for a ballistic missile. It is probably comparable to that of Iskander if not better?



Hack-Hook said:


> still there is no news on what happened to two missile , 4 hit the target , 1 deviated after launch and self destructed twostill missing.
> well on plus side these were Fatih-110b from more than a decade ago


All are accounted for. 1 went off track, 2 hit the meeting, 4 hit the training camp. All but one but their target. Much better than Tomahawk performance in most recent US attack on Syria

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## Hack-Hook

Arminkh said:


> Do you think they marked the target with laser using drones? The accuracy is still too high for a ballistic missile. It is probably comparable to that of Iskander if not better?
> 
> 
> All are accounted for. 1 went off track, 2 hit the meeting, 4 hit the training camp. All but one but their target. Much better than Tomahawk performance in most recent US attack on Syria


but they only show 2 hit for training camp


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## Arminkh

Hack-Hook said:


> but they only show 2 hit for training camp


There were 4 explosion smoke over the camp. I posted that further up


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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> but they only show 2 hit for training camp


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> the Mobin warhead is different did any of the missile in the video had that warhead?



Did you see every single launch from close range??? NO! At best Iran showed 4-5 of them & FYI the ONLY visible difference between the Mobins and the others is a pointy tip vs mobins rounded tip and of the launches shown at best you could only see 3-4 that actually had pointy tip! And yes almost all of them were the Fatteh-110B rockets that when produced over a decade ago and had a CEP of 0.09% of max range (~220 meters at max effective range but almost all of them had their guidance upgraded to 0.03% of max range ~75 meters by ~2010-12 including the export version and again except for the export versions almost all of them got upgraded again to under 35 meters CEP by 2014) 

So yes the Rocket are B's but the Guidance systems are NOT because the original B's would of had a CEP of over 200 meters at 220km and you can't really target anything with that!


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## VEVAK

Arminkh said:


> Do you think they marked the target with laser using drones? The accuracy is still too high for a ballistic missile. It is probably comparable to that of Iskander if not better?
> 
> 
> All are accounted for. 1 went off track, 2 hit the meeting, 4 hit the training camp. All but one but their target. Much better than Tomahawk performance in most recent US attack on Syria



Aziam even if I knew "Which I do not" I still wouldn't say what was used online!!!

But if your trying to see in Human error played into the mix then yes the lower your CEP the increase chances of human error but I don't believe the UAV was lasing the target and the reason he moved his camera after the 1st hit was because of the smoke you lose the ability to lock on to an image due to smoke!


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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 498303


some may say 1&2 hit camp , 3&4 hit the castle
it will be consistent with this Aerial image


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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> some may say 1&2 hit camp , 3&4 hit the castle
> it will be consistent with this Aerial image



So 4 out of 7 made contact against an air defenseless opponent? Has this been generally confirmed?

If so, then I don’t care if they were all F-110B’s that rate of improvement needs to get much higher.

Both targets were massive in size equivalent to a small military forward base. Completely missing them is not sufficient.


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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> So 4 out of 7 made contact against an air defenseless opponent? Has this been generally confirmed?
> 
> If so, then I don’t care if they were all F-110B’s that rate of improvement needs to get much higher.
> 
> Both targets were massive in size equivalent to a small military forward base. Completely missing them is not sufficient.


well there is no doubt the faster the rate of improvement the better .
but about the targets were big ,I say no the targets were some tent and a room , they were not that big. I say the precision for the missiles tat hit the area is as good as Iskander missile
what I wonder is that where is two other missile ? why nobody talk about them , even if they hit desert why nobody say so , if they hit some other place why keep it secret ? honestly you expect with today technologies somebody could have answered those questions ?


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> So 4 out of 7 made contact against an air defenseless opponent? Has this been generally confirmed?
> 
> If so, then I don’t care if they were all F-110B’s that rate of improvement needs to get much higher.
> 
> Both targets were massive in size equivalent to a small military forward base. Completely missing them is not sufficient.



This is what Fatteh-110B's original CEP would look like if just over half of the missiles landed inside that circle!!







So with the original B's Iran would of had to fire over 20 missiles just to land ONE somewhere inside the headquarters!!!!!!!!! And at least 60-100 missiles just to hit the section of the building within 20 meters of where the meeting was taking place. 
So these are NOT original B's they are B booster rockets! Today a Fatteh-110 B just indicates the Max Effective Range of the Rocket & it's speed and they say 250km but they usually keep them under 230KM with the B's if possible and if they had their original targeting system they would of kept them under 200km to be able to take higher angle trajectories for better terminal guidance!


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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> well there is no doubt the faster the rate of improvement the better .
> but about the targets were big ,I say no the targets were some tent and a room , they were not that big. I say the precision for the missiles tat hit the area is as good as Iskander missile
> what I wonder is that where is two other missile ? why nobody talk about them , even if they hit desert why nobody say so , if they hit some other place why keep it secret ? honestly you expect with today technologies somebody could have answered those questions ?



The target wasn’t a room, the overall target was a base of operations and the other was a training camp.

Like the syrian missile strike, it shows similarities in accuracy issues. Iran’s ballistic capability is still not at acceptable levels considering Iran has a lack of airforce and long range cruise missile arsenal to make up for short comings.



VEVAK said:


> This is what Fatteh-110B's original CEP would look like if just over half of the missiles landed inside that circle!!
> View attachment 498712
> 
> 
> 
> So with the original B's Iran would of had to fire over 20 missiles just to land ONE somewhere inside the headquarters!!!!!!!!! And at least 60-100 missiles just to hit the section of the building within 20 meters of where the meeting was taking place.
> So these are NOT original B's they are B booster rockets! Today a Fatteh-110 B just indicates the Max Effective Range of the Rocket & it's speed and they say 250km but they usually keep them under 230KM with the B's if possible and if they had their original targeting system they would of kept them under 200km to be able to take higher angle trajectories for better terminal guidance!



All speculation at this point. The range and true accuracy of any Fateh series missile is classified.

Iran really needs to boost its long range cruise missile arsenal. (Which it has announced it is doing).

Iran building even 10,000 F-110’s is simply not viable.


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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> The target wasn’t a room, the overall target was a base of operations and the other was a training camp.
> 
> Like the syrian missile strike, it shows similarities in accuracy issues. Iran’s ballistic capability is still not at acceptable levels considering Iran has a lack of airforce and long range cruise missile arsenal to make up for short comings.
> 
> 
> 
> All speculation at this point. The range and true accuracy of any Fateh series missile is classified.
> 
> Iran really needs to boost its long range cruise missile arsenal. (Which it has announced it is doing).
> 
> Iran building even 10,000 F-110’s is simply not viable.


Wrong target were the room that the terrorist leaders have a gathering there and one missile hit the room and another 6m of it.
And two missile also hit training camp .

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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> Wrong target were the room that the terrorist leaders have a gathering there and one missile hit the room and another 6m of it.
> And two missile also hit training camp .



When a warhead is re-entering at Mach 5+ with its 500KG high explosives, it is not necessary to hit the room to obliterate the target.

Furthermore, if you have to fire 5-7 missiles to assure destruction of a military target then that is a problem.

Assuming that your opponent has a modern air defense network. Let’s say it intercepts even 30% of the missiles incoming. That would mean iran would have to fire 10 missiles to achieve the same results it did today.

If that were the case, Iran would quickly deplete ts missile stockpile in the early months of any major war.

The entire deterrence threat of Iran lies in how capable the Emad warhead (for MRBM) and the Mobin warhead (for SRBM) are in surviving and accurately hitting their target.

It explains why in the last few years Iran shifted focus away from creating brand new missile designs to improving the accuracy of their current missiles with next generation warhead technology.

After all what is the point of a missile force if most of your missiles either get intercepted or miss their target by acceptable standards?

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> The target wasn’t a room, the overall target was a base of operations and the other was a training camp.
> 
> Like the syrian missile strike, it shows similarities in accuracy issues. Iran’s ballistic capability is still not at acceptable levels considering Iran has a lack of airforce and long range cruise missile arsenal to make up for short comings.
> 
> 
> 
> All speculation at this point. The range and true accuracy of any Fateh series missile is classified.
> 
> Iran really needs to boost its long range cruise missile arsenal. (Which it has announced it is doing).
> 
> Iran building even 10,000 F-110’s is simply not viable.



1st IT IS NOT speculation these are all info Iran has already made public in the past!
CEP of F-110B's were 0.09% (225Meters) of max range and the 1st guidance system upgrade was to 0.03% of max range CEP 75 meters that even export version got and from then Iran started producing new guidance systems with new systems going into production every 2 years like clockwork with the latest being the Mobin and these are all public info!

10,000 Fateh 110's & Fateh-313's with a CEP of 10-15 Meters & 35 meters for Airburst cluster version is more than sufficient for any target on the surface within 450km of where they are fired from and to fully take away the need to use fighter jets against fixed surface targets within 400km of Iranian soil & up to 600km if sufficient number of Zolfaghar's are built 

If Iran can achieve a CEP of 10 meters and if you have good intel & backed by well equipped special forces on the ground it shouldn't take more than 1000 missiles to severely damage any enemies Air Defense capabilities, 1000 to severely damage their Air Force capabilities and another 1000 to go after Command, Com's, Infrastructure & Docked Naval capabilities and the rest you can leave up to UCAV's, Cheaper Cruise Missiles & your Air Force.
And 10,000 should be sufficient against the U.S. or a war against multiple countries on 3 fronts to cover targets within 350km of Iranian soil


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> 1st IT IS NOT speculation these are all info Iran has already made public in the past!
> CEP of F-110B's were 0.09% (225Meters) of max range and the 1st guidance system upgrade was to 0.03% of max range CEP 75 meters that even export version got and from then Iran started producing new guidance systems with new systems going into production every 2 years like clockwork with the latest being the Mobin and these are all public info!
> 
> 10,000 Fateh 110's & Fateh-313's with a CEP of 10-15 Meters & 35 meters for Airburst cluster version is more than sufficient for any target on the surface within 450km of where they are fired from and to fully take away the need to use fighter jets against fixed surface targets within 400km of Iranian soil & up to 600km if sufficient number of Zolfaghar's are built
> 
> If Iran can achieve a CEP of 10 meters and if you have good intel & backed by well equipped special forces on the ground it shouldn't take more than 1000 missiles to severely damage any enemies Air Defense capabilities, 1000 to severely damage their Air Force capabilities and another 1000 to go after Command, Com's, Infrastructure & Docked Naval capabilities and the rest you can leave up to UCAV's, Cheaper Cruise Missiles & your Air Force.
> And 10,000 should be sufficient against the U.S. or a war against multiple countries on 3 fronts to cover targets within 350km of Iranian soil



Problem is iran doesn’t have 10,000 F-110s. Which was my point.

People here seem to think Iran has 100,000 missiles. That’s absurd.


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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> When a warhead is re-entering at Mach 5+ with its 500KG high explosives, it is not necessary to hit the room to obliterate the target.


but it hit the room


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## NaCon

TheImmortal said:


> People here seem to think Iran has 100,000 missiles. That’s absurd.


they actually have more. I think they might have close to a million from short range unguided to long range ballistic and cruise missiles. Remember Hezbollah alone which is sponsored by Iran, has according to Israeli estimates upwards of 150,000 guided and unguided missiles.

source: https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...-more-Predicting-the-third-Lebanon-war-542171

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## TheImmortal

NaCon said:


> they actually have more. I think they might have close to a million from short range unguided to long range ballistic and cruise missiles. Remember Hezbollah alone which is sponsored by Iran, has according to Israeli estimates upwards of 150,000 guided and unguided missiles.
> 
> source: https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...-more-Predicting-the-third-Lebanon-war-542171



That is hilarious!!! A million missiles? NO A BILLION! Why not a trillion? 

Hezbollah has 100,000 Mostly katuyshas, GRAD, IRAMs, and unguided rockets. BIG BIG DIFFERENCE between those and guided missiles.

Prior to 60 day war the arsenal was maybe 10,000-20,000 rockets and a small amount of longer range zelzal rockets.

In terms of actual guided BM’s (Fateh series) they likely have less than 250 maybe as low as 50.

One thing people forget about F-110 is that its a SOLID FUEL missile. Thus it must be handled with EXTRA care and STORED safely. 

So if we are talking about Iran’s MODERN BMs the stockpile is probably not even 10,000 missiles TOTAL! (Shahab-3, Emads, Qiams, Ghadr, Sejil, F-110’s, Zolfighar).


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Problem is iran doesn’t have 10,000 F-110s. Which was my point.
> 
> People here seem to think Iran has 100,000 missiles. That’s absurd.



They are just repeating what Iranian Generals have said in the past! And it depends on how you look at it. If you were to include everything from ATGM, SAM, Cruise Missiles, Air Launch Missiles, Anti ships missiles,.... Iran could have a stock of over 100,000 missiles.


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## NaCon

TheImmortal said:


> That is hilarious!!! A million missiles? NO A BILLION! Why not a trillion?
> 
> Hezbollah has 100,000 Mostly katuyshas, GRAD, IRAMs, and unguided rockets. BIG BIG DIFFERENCE between those and guided missiles.
> 
> Prior to 60 day war the arsenal was maybe 10,000-20,000 rockets and a small amount of longer range zelzal rockets.
> 
> In terms of actual guided BM’s (Fateh series) they likely have less than 250 maybe as low as 50.
> 
> One thing people forget about F-110 is that its a SOLID FUEL missile. Thus it must be handled with EXTRA care and STORED safely.
> 
> So if we are talking about Iran’s MODERN BMs the stockpile is probably not even 10,000 missiles TOTAL! (Shahab-3, Emads, Qiams, Ghadr, Sejil, F-110’s, Zolfighar).


Did you actually read what I have written?!?
I wrote guided and unguided missiles and cruise missiles.



TheImmortal said:


> In terms of actual guided BM’s (Fateh series) they likely have less than 250 maybe as low as 50.
> 
> So if we are talking about Iran’s MODERN BMs the stockpile is probably not even 10,000 missiles TOTAL! (Shahab-3, Emads, Qiams, Ghadr, Sejil, F-110’s, Zolfighar).


so what you are saying is that iran used 3-14% of its fateh missiles when they launched 7 of them last week


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> They are just repeating what Iranian Generals have said in the past! And it depends on how you look at it. If you were to include everything from ATGM, SAM, Cruise Missiles, Air Launch Missiles, Anti ships missiles,.... Iran could have a stock of over 100,000 missiles.



That’s called PROPAGANDA. If every country used that logic then the US and russia could say they have a TRILLION “missiles”. Let’s not skew the definition of what we really mean.

Furthermore, Iran’s long range cruise missile arsenal is basically non existent. No indication Soumar is even operationally viable. And Ya Ali is still a mock up.

The lack of Soumar use in Syria and Iraq attack is very telling. Let’s you know they are still not accurate enough.



NaCon said:


> Did you actually read what I have written?!?
> I wrote guided and unguided missiles and cruise missiles.
> 
> 
> so what you are saying is that iran used 3-14% of its fateh missiles when they launched 7 of them last week



I was merely pointing not to promote propaganda. So if 100,000 are nonsophisticated rockets and 250 are actual BMs then you can’t say Hezbollah has 100,000 guided and nonguided missiles. Because that’s not really telling the whole truth, it’s propaganda.

Also I said that Hezbollah F-110 arsenal is likely <250 missiles. Iran’s could be 1,000-2,000. Who really knows. But assuming Iran produces at least 100 F-110’s a year that would mean in the last 10 years they should have amassed at least 1,000 missiles.

Also people seem to forget that it’s not so much how many iran can produce, but how many are actually be ordered by Iran’s military. Like all countries, Iran’s military sets a budget.

Iran has been firing off old missiles that are reaching the end of their operational capability. They also tested new generations in live combat environment as part of ongoing military assessments.

Iran has likely also retired TENS possibly hundreds of liquid fueled old Shahab-3 generation missiles over the years as well.


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> That’s called PROPAGANDA. If every country used that logic then the US and russia could say they have a TRILLION “missiles”. Let’s not skew the definition of what we really mean.
> 
> Furthermore, Iran’s long range cruise missile arsenal is basically non existent. No indication Soumar is even operationally viable. And Ya Ali is still a mock up.
> 
> The lack of Soumar use in Syria and Iraq attack is very telling. Let’s you know they are still not accurate enough.
> 
> 
> 
> I was merely pointing not to promote propaganda. So if 100,000 are nonsophisticated rockets and 250 are actual BMs then you can’t say Hezbollah has 100,000 guided and nonguided missiles. Because that’s not really telling the whole truth, it’s propaganda.
> 
> Also I said that Hezbollah F-110 arsenal is likely <250 missiles. Iran’s could be 1,000-2,000. Who really knows. But assuming Iran produces at least 100 F-110’s a year that would mean in the last 10 years they should have amassed at least 1,000 missiles.
> 
> Also people seem to forget that it’s not so much how many iran can produce, but how many are actually be ordered by Iran’s military. Like all countries, Iran’s military sets a budget.
> 
> Iran has been firing off old missiles that are reaching the end of their operational capability. They also tested new generations in live combat environment as part of ongoing military assessments.
> 
> Iran has likely also retired TENS possibly hundreds of liquid fueled old Shahab-3 generation missiles over the years as well.



1st the main problem Iran has with its Liquid Fueled BM is not the number rather the type of missiles used! If you can produce a wider diameter missile with higher payload capacity like the Khoramshar and equip them with at least 4 ~1000lb MIRV and a good CEP then 10 Missile = 40 upgraded Shahab-3 and launching 25 of them at an Air base = 100 MRBM and stocking 1000 over a decade with ~250 launchers and silos will be sufficient to retire all your Shahab's, Qader's, Qiam's & Emad's or keep un-fueled ones in deep underground storage area's without breaking a sweat and if they are properly stored maybe even with a layer of nano coating then they should be fine for another 3-4 decade! 


2ndly producing cruise missiles is really not that complicated and Iran started production of land attack cruise missiles well over a decade ago with land attack variants of the Raad 450km 
Iran's been producing mini turbojet engines for ~14 years now and they made the Karrar public some 8 years ago so it's not really a question of whether Iran has ready to deploy LACM rather a question of what their range and capabilities are​ 

The main problem with cruise missiles is unless you have proper intel, mapping, with the right sub systems allowing them to fly really low at some places or high in others based on preprogrammed threat assessment with sufficient range to conduct such maneuvers then they become relatively easy to take down 

And not using a weapon system is not the same as not having them!


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## Raghfarm007

Soumar cruise missile attack in Yemen:

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## yavar



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## skyshadow

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/irans-latest-missile-strikes-showcase-tehrans-strategy-31352


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## Websorber

*Iran's Latest Missile Strikes Showcase Tehran's Strategy*

*https://nationalinterest.org/featur...ikes-showcase-tehrans-strategy-31352?page=0,1*

*










*


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## yavar



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## T-72B

yavar said:


>


0:24 what are these missile types?


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## Websorber

T-72B said:


> 0:24 what are these missile types?


Looks like Fateh
can't be sure witch type


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## skyshadow

T-72B said:


> 0:24 what are these missile types?



zolfagar missiles


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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


> zolfagar missiles



I want to see some of these dropped right on top of Saudi intelligence ministry and offices in direct retaliation for the terrorist attacks.

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## yavar

T-72B said:


> 0:24 what are these missile types?



Zolfagar missiles
range-700-KM
warhead-650-KG

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## skyshadow

arashkamangir said:


> I want to see some of these dropped right on top of Saudi intelligence ministry and offices in direct retaliation for the terrorist attacks.



Undoubtedly, we should find and punish those responsible for the attack.

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## PeeD

The Zolfaghar TEL is now a 8x8 instead of a 6x6. The 6x6 was probably not able to handle two heavy Zolfaghars.
The new TEL and now more growth potential.

This and a mobile Samavat (Oerlikon) 35mm AAA were the only significant new systems shown on the parade...

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## Persian Gulf 1906

now is a good occasion to put these missiles to the test.

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## sobhan

New trucks of zolfiqar system

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## yavar



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## Websorber

*IRGC Displays 21 Ballistic Missiles during Military Parades in Tehran*

http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13970631000965


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## raptor22

why warheads are different in Zolfghar?


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## skyshadow

Today, two new missiles and a new rocket were unveiled


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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> Today, two new missiles and a new rocket were unveiled


what are the two new missiles?


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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> what are the two new missiles?



Iranian Qiam missile with guided warhead

Iranian Hormoz-2 anti ship radar missile

unknown Iranian guided rocket

Iranian guided version of Zelzal rocket


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Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> what are the two new missiles?



Tomorrow another part of this documentary will be released and i hope we can see another new missile.

Tonight, at 7:30 pm, a military contest will be broadcast in the form of the Navy Special Forces.

*Iranian Qiam missile with guided warhead*
*













*

Iranian *Hormoz-1* and *Hormoz-2* anti ship ballistic missiles

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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> Iranian Qiam missile with guided warhead


thanks. what is the difference between qiam and zolfaqar?? both are 700km BM? i thought they were going to put fateh mobin seeker on zolfaqar so what is the point of qiam?

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## PeeD

What was new beside the MaRV Qiam is an active radar guided Khalije Fars AshBM variant!

Hormuz with radio source homing, Khalije Fars with infrared homing and the new Khalije Fars variant with active radar homing, all major kill methods are now mastered.

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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> thanks. what is the difference between qiam and zolfaqar?? both are 700km BM? i thought they were going to put fateh mobin seeker on zolfaqar so what is the point of qiam?



l I think the most important difference between the qiam and zolfaqar is the ballistic missile trajectory and the zolfaqar missile is more accurate in dealing with the target and its solid fuel and you know the alternatives that comes with solid fuel. zolfagar range : ~700km. qiam range : ~850km.

And remember that Iran got to the qiam much sooner than zolfagar . It is said that a large number of these qiam missiles have been manufactured and stored, which this could be considered as an upgrade for our qiam missiles .

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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> l I think the most important difference between the qiam and zolfaqar is the ballistic missile trajectory and the zolfaqar missile is more accurate in dealing with the target and its solid fuel and you know the alternatives that comes with solid fuel. zolfagar range : ~700km. qiam range : ~850km.
> 
> And remember that Iran got to the qiam much sooner than zolfagar . It is said that a large number of these qiam missiles have been manufactured and stored, which this could be considered as an upgrade for our qiam missiles .


if zolfaqar is more accurate and is solid fuel and they are both BM and have very similar range what is the point of still producing qiam instead of focusing on putting fateh mobin guidance system on zolfaqar?


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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> if zolfaqar is more accurate and is solid fuel and they are both BM and have very similar range what is the point of still producing qiam instead of focusing on putting fateh mobin guidance system on zolfaqar?



I do not know if Iran is still producing qiam missiles or not but this may be is an upgrade to make precision warheads for our already manufactured qiam missiles.


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## PeeD

Qiam has a almost infinite lifetime compared to the Zolfaghar. With a small overhaul it can be used to deliver a ~ half ton warhead to a point target at mach 3,5 in 2100... a truly strategic generations asset. Thats the reason they were and probably are produced like cigarettes.

The Zolfaghar has to change its booster after 15-20 years. But offers tactical advantage: It can go anywhere stay there for as long as necessary and launch within minutes if the request comes --> small footprint.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Qiam has a almost infinite lifetime compared to the Zolfaghar. With a small overhaul it can be used to deliver a ~ half ton warhead to a point target at mach 3,5 in 2100... a truly strategic generations asset. Thats the reason they were and probably are produced like cigarettes.
> 
> The Zolfaghar has to change its booster after 15-20 years. But offers tactical advantage: It can go anywhere stay there for as long as necessary and launch within minutes if the request comes --> small footprint.



You are missing another important difference

Zolfghar is from Fateh family, thus is a quasi-BM (never leaves Earth’s atmosphere)

Qiam is from a Shahab family of missiles and is a traditional BM.

Not all air defense systems can engage Zolfghar due to its trajectory.

Another important point is warhead size which you already mentioned.

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## yavar



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## sanel1412

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> if zolfaqar is more accurate and is solid fuel and they are both BM and have very similar range what is the point of still producing qiam instead of focusing on putting fateh mobin guidance system on zolfaqar?


Quiam and Fateh family are two completly different things...different technology..different destructive power..different usage...Fateh family is tactical quazi balistic missile like Iskander while Quiam is traditional balistic missile like SCUD...Fateh is tactical while Quiam is strategic assets even it can be used as tactical...destructive power of Quiam is much..much higher ... missile has balistic trajectory...misle is lunched vertically and go outside atmosphere than warhead is split from body and return..speed of such balistic missiles warheads is much higher...probably more than 2 times...Fateh family is a quasy balistic missile and it fly as whole missile from start till the end in quazi balistic trajectory...almost like rocket and it doesn't reach high atlitude ..only booster is rejected
Again Quiam is traditional balistic missile with true balistic trajectory,guided warhead with fins will give it more acuracy and also it would be able to change trajectory and evade defense....destructive power of Quiam is much..much greater...because of speed kinetic energy is huge thus has bigger warhead....also even it has "normal" balistic trajectory it will be big challenge for defense because of guided warhead and high speed...ABM shields have problems to intercept even SCUD and similar missiles without a maneuverable warhead which doesn't change trajectory because of speed...longer range IRBMs and above would probably failed to intercept even with dumb warhead since these shields hevily depends on radars positioned close to potentional lunching locations ...warheads with evading capatibility will be imposible to intercept.
Quiam is strategic asset(even can be used as tactical) you will see it in underground silos and underground bases mostly and since it is liquid-fueled missile it require some preparation...fuel tanking..etc and reaction time is not comparable with Fateh family
On other side Fateh like balistic misile or Iskander are quazi-balistic missiles...those are balistic missiles where missile never lives atmosphere and doesn't follow balistic trajectory...it has lower speed and destructive power but there are some adventages which makes it great tactical asset... since Fateh is solid fuel it doesn't require preparation and rection time is minimal,it is much harder to detect lunching and also these missiles are excellent to attack ABM shields because interception is almost imposible...that is why when US deployed parts of anti missile shield in Europe to Russian borders first Russian reaction was Iskander deployment close to these assets....So these missiles from Fateh family will be used as first defense and 24/7 on alert....

s

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## Draco.IMF

What missile is this one?

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## Persian Gulf 1906

sanel1412 said:


> On other side Fateh like balistic misile or Iskander are quazi-balistic missiles...those are balistic missiles where missile never lives atmosphere and doesn't follow balistic trajectory...it has lower speed and destructive power but there are some adventages which makes it great tactical asset... since Fateh is solid fuel it doesn't require preparation and rection time is minimal,it is much harder to detect lunching and also these missiles are excellent to attack ABM shields because interception is almost imposible...that is why when US deployed parts of anti missile shield in Europe to Russian borders first Russian reaction was Iskander deployment close to these assets....So these missiles from Fateh family will be used as first defense and 24/7 on alert....


why don't they make solid fuel qiam so then it will have lower preparation time and more destructive and faster speed etc (all the advantages of both)?



Draco.IMF said:


> What missile is this one?


it looks like emad to me


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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> What missile is this one?





Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> why don't they make solid fuel qiam so then it will have lower preparation time and more destructive and faster speed etc (all the advantages of both)?
> 
> 
> it looks like emad to me




*This is upgraded shahab 2 missile with a guided warhead*








*and this is emad*

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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> This is upgraded shahab 2 missile with a guided warhead


my bad, thanks for clarifying

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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> my bad, thanks for clarifying



No problem Brother it happens to me a lot.

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## yavar




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## skyshadow

Iranian Qiam missile with guided warhead




















Iranian Zulfaqar missile 

*Probably a new version of Zulfagar missile with new materials used in the body with the new 2018 Registry and with a warhead different from the previous one.














*

Iranian Ghadr, Ghiam and khalije fars missiles
















In this photo you can easily see the differences between the new version and the old version of zoalfagar missiles in size and new materials used in the body and the difference in the warheads. The missiles on the left of the photo are the old missiles and the missiles on the right of the photo are the new 2018 version.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

was sejil 2 shown? i havent seen that in a while...


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## sanel1412

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> why don't they make solid fuel qiam so then it will have lower preparation time and more destructive and faster speed etc (all the advantages of both)?


Well like I said these two are completely different things...when it comes to your question,only traditional solid fuled balistic missile in Iran posetion is Sejil..at least what we know but still like I said Fateh family quazi balistic missiles are different thing than Quiam balistic missile in every way...it is not just range ...tactical balistic missile will make less damage so those are better for high precision strikes where you don't want to destroy everything around,also lower quazi balistic trajectory means missile can make manuevers almost right after lunch and will leave much less reaction time to enemy while Quiam-like BM will follow sub-orbital flight path and while warhead itself is faster in terminal phase whole flight time is longer ...as I said you have compared two completly different things...I forget to mention range...you have to consider there is also minimal range...so it is not like you have Quiam(doesn't metter is it liquid or solid fueled)with 850KM range and now you can lunch at everything at range between 0-850KM ...I didn't check these parameters but if you look min-max range even for different version of Fateh you will understand why they had to maintain different versions of same missilel...

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## TheImmortal

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> was sejil 2 shown? i havent seen that in a while...



That project was probably stopped after intial production batches.

My theory is that the missile costs and advanced materials were too prohibitive for mass production. There were rumors Iran was having trouble procuring the materials to produce the missile.

Basically Sejil-2 was a missile that should be produced in more reasonable amounts to carry Iran’s nuclear weapons arsenal. Since Iran doesn’t have nuclear weapons, the question became what advantage does it give Iran using conventional warhead.

With the design of Emad warhead and improvements to Shahab family it might have been more cost effective to use these missiles instead of Sejil.


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## sanel1412

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> was sejil 2 shown? i havent seen that in a while...


Yes it was shown,I watched video of whole parade ...this attack shadows parades held in Bandar Abas,Teheran and other locations..which is understandable....but yes Sejil was paraded and there was more than one Sejil paraded along with other missiles...I think I saw more than 20 longer range BMs....I think Sejil is not put in first plan mostly because it challenge Iran 2000 missile range...even this Musudan look like misle is havily modified(shortened) to put it in 2000km but on that engine you can built anything you want .....heck this missile has 2000km range with 1800kg payload and N.Korean version has 3500km range with same warhead(almost 3x size of Shahab3).Any way like I said most estimation put Sejil in 3000km range with 800kg-1t payload since it is solid fueled and two stage missile and it is still larger than Shahab...Liquid fueled missiles are mostly larger since they need space for fuel tanks...engines...etc...But it could be also that this missile is considered to expensive to be used in same role as Sahabs...Sejil is much advanced and completly Iranian design which is not based on NO Dong/Scud technology....at least I'm not aware of any design similar to Sejil..maybe I'm wrong.
If you look Israel claims and analysis about Iran...they want convince Europe that Iran is threat at all costs...last their analysis use Su-24 armed with Soumar as usecase...and even put it in Syria perspective where Iranian SU-24 can lunch Soumar cruise missile from Mediterranean .... thay claim Iran can reach Europe with cruise missile which is based on NUCLEAR capable KH55...even this is idiltic claim....so this 2000km limit has political weight for Iran...but again price can be also one of the important factors for missile used to deliver conventional warhead..


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## skyshadow

Iranian Hormoz missile seeker

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## yavar



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## yavar



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## yavar




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## T-72B

yavar said:


>


Hormuz 2 is anti radiation Ballistic missile right?

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## yavar

T-72B said:


> Hormuz 2 is anti radiation Ballistic missile right?


no, it is anti-ship missile even wooden ship with very little Cross section


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## arashkamangir

T-72B said:


> Hormuz 2 is anti radiation Ballistic missile right?



No Hormuz 1 has a passive homing system which effectively homes on radiating source. This version is optimized for sea use against ships.

Hormuz 2 appears to have active homing system: some radar capability is built into it.


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## Sineva

Has anyone else noticed that the zulfiqar/fateh 110 twin missile tels are now lengthened with *4 axles *rather than the previous 3 axle configuration?

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## arashkamangir

Sineva said:


> Has anyone else noticed that the zulfiqar/fateh 110 twin missile tels are now lengthened with *4 axles *rather than the previous 3 axle configuration?



It is expected as Zulfiqar has double the range.

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## WinterNights

Interesting, that could mean zolfiqar is heavier? I heard countless people claim the increased range of zolfiqar was due to reduced mass!


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## skyshadow




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## T-72B

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 501614


What is that missile? Somekind of S-200 missile variant?


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## skyshadow

T-72B said:


> What is that missile? Somekind of S-200 missile variant?



I do not know exactly what type of missile this is.you're right it's similar to the S200 with out side boosters, but it's not alike


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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> I do not know exactly what type of missile this is.you're right it's similar to the S200 with out side boosters, but it's not alike





T-72B said:


> What is that missile? Somekind of S-200 missile variant?


Well by looking at this image 




In the tail its written Zelzal-2 but its strange the Zelda 2 supposed to look different.

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## mohsen

It's the third time I see Janes is deleting the analysis which show the advancement of Iranian military, perhaps it's a big butthurt for them!

even google cache is cooperating with them!

https://www.google.com/search?q=Analysis:+Iranian+TV+shows+upgraded+missiles+|+Jane's+360

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## skyshadow

mohsen said:


> It's the third time I see Janes is deleting the analysis which show the advancement of Iranian military, perhaps it's a big butthurt for them!
> 
> even google cache is cooperating with them!
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=Analysis:+Iranian+TV+shows+upgraded+missiles+|+Jane's+360



why? did you read the analysis?


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## T-72B

Hack-Hook said:


> Well by looking at this image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the tail its written Zelzal-2 but its strange the Zelda 2 supposed to look different.


A new version of zelzal-2?


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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> Well by looking at this image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the tail its written Zelzal-2 but its strange the Zelda 2 supposed to look different.



Looks like a Zelzal-2 or 3 just without its nozzle cover and fins.


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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> Looks like a Zelzal-2 or 3 just without its nozzle cover and fins.


maybe the upgrade of the zelzal with maneuvering warhead they were talking about .

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## Navigator

It's upgrade Zelzal-2 from unguided to recently uncovered guided variant. Instead spin engines etc. there installed section with fins ets for guided flight.


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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> Iranian Qiam missile with guided warhead
> 
> 
> View attachment 501276
> View attachment 501277
> View attachment 501278
> View attachment 501279
> View attachment 501280
> 
> 
> Iranian Zulfaqar missile
> 
> *Probably a new version of Zulfagar missile with new materials used in the body with the new 2018 Registry and with a warhead different from the previous one.
> 
> 
> View attachment 501281
> View attachment 501282
> View attachment 501283
> View attachment 501284
> *
> 
> Iranian Ghadr, Ghiam and khalije fars missiles
> 
> 
> View attachment 501286
> View attachment 501287
> View attachment 501288
> View attachment 501289
> 
> 
> 
> In this photo you can easily see the differences between the new version and the old version of zoalfagar missiles in size and new materials used in the body and the difference in the warheads. The missiles on the left of the photo are the old missiles and the missiles on the right of the photo are the new 2018 version.
> 
> View attachment 501292




Both the Zolfaghar's shown here are Mockups with fake warheads and fake control systems & fake engine! They are NOT going to bring real missiles with solid fuel to a military parade and risk the chance of a major incident!!! ​

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## Safriz

Sineva said:


> Has anyone else noticed that the zulfiqar/fateh 110 twin missile tels are now lengthened with *4 axles *rather than the previous 3 axle configuration?


Yes because on three axle truck the missile was hanging behind the truck....


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> Well by looking at this image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the tail its written Zelzal-2 but its strange the Zelda 2 supposed to look different.



the tail stabilizers haven't been installed in that pic and the warhead is a dummy
This is from 2014







yavar said:


>


 
Isn't that the Fatah Mobin test at the end?

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## Draco.IMF

Are iranian missiles also made this way or simpler?

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## Persian Gulf 1906

is there a thread about the recent missile strike in syria (retaliation for the ahwaz terror attack)?

IRGC used 6 missiles (and 7 drones) fired from kermanshah into Albu Kamal (570km away) using qiam and zolfaqar missiles

I haven't seen any drone footage released yet, but it was apparently a successful strike


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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> is there a thread about the recent missile strike in syria (retaliation for the ahwaz terror attack)?
> 
> IRGC used 6 missiles (and 7 drones) fired from kermanshah into Albu Kamal (570km away) using qiam and zolfaqar missiles
> 
> I haven't seen any drone footage released yet, but it was apparently a successful strike



yes there is one. and they used saegeh uav for the first time.



https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran-launching-missiles-towards-isis-positions.579652/

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## yavar



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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> yes there is one. and they used saegeh uav for the first time.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran-launching-missiles-towards-isis-positions.579652/


kheyli mamnoon

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## Websorber

*Judiciary chief says Iran’s missiles are symbol of power*

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/138573/Judiciary-chief-says-Iran-s-missiles-are-symbol-of-power

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## skyshadow

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-missiles-can-now-travel-700-km-idUSKCN1MQ102

https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-...tic-missile-range-now-reaches-700-kilometers/

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/I...d-to-sea-missiles-can-now-travel-700km-569524


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## skyshadow



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## sanel1412

I don't get it..what is special in these images...Quiam is traditional balistic missile fired verticaly and after missile reach sub-orbital phase warhead is splited from missile body and while warhead continue to target ,missile body returns to the ground...Contrary to this quazi balistic missiles are fired like rockets and will not reach high atlitude like traditional balistic missiles thus there is no re-entry vehicle on those missiles...it fly as whole missile from lunching till the end...minus rocket booster..if there is any(Fateh faamily has rocket booster..but some don't)


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## skyshadow

sanel1412 said:


> I don't get it..what is special in these images...Quiam is traditional balistic missile fired verticaly and after missile reach sub-orbital phase warhead is splited from missile body and while warhead continue to target ,missile body returns to the ground...Contrary to this quazi balistic missiles are fired like rockets and will not reach high atlitude like traditional balistic missiles thus there is no re-entry vehicle on those missiles...it fly as whole missile from lunching till the end...minus rocket booster..if there is any(Fateh faamily has rocket booster..but some don't)



It is important because missile analyzers have announced that the qiam missile that was fired from Iran has ben fallen in Iran, but these images are said to have been taken near the Iraqi-Syrian border. "
Close to target"

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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> It is important because missile analyzers have announced that the qiam missile that was fired from Iran has ben fallen in Iran, but these images are said to have been taken near the Iraqi-Syrian border. "
> Close to target"


دو تا قیام شلیک شد نه یکی و من تا اونجا که خبر دارم گفته شده موشکی که توی ایران توی یک مزرعه افتاده از خانواده فاتح بوده نه موشک قیام.

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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> دو تا قیام شلیک شد نه یکی و من تا اونجا که خبر دارم گفته شده موشکی که توی ایران توی یک مزرعه افتاده از خانواده فاتح بوده نه موشک قیام.



متاسفانه من یکی دیدم. اره گفتن فاتح مردم ولی بی بی سی گفت قیام بوده بعدش بقیه خبرگزاری ها هم گفتن قیام


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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> It is important because missile analyzers have announced that the qiam missile that was fired from Iran has ben fallen in Iran, but these images are said to have been taken near the Iraqi-Syrian border. "
> Close to target"





skyshadow said:


> متاسفانه من یکی دیدم. اره گفتن فاتح مردم ولی بی بی سی گفت قیام بوده بعدش بقیه خبرگزاری ها هم گفتن قیام



A very interesting read take a look!

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...عملیات-گسترده-پهپادهای-سپاه-در-سوریه-اعلام-شد

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> A very interesting read take a look!
> 
> https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...عملیات-گسترده-پهپادهای-سپاه-در-سوریه-اعلام-شد
> 
> View attachment 506879



Brother. I am very happy for all of this. Throughout my life it was just in the last two or three years that i really have noticed all these advances in technology and military now we can say that Iran has a remarkable difference in technology and Medical and military zone from other Middle Eastern countries. Except for Israel and Turkey that are ahead of us in some areas because of lack of sanctions. I really do not want to see Iran in another war or revolution just when its turning into the Middle East power again. because if that happens, it will set us back form the world latest technology for an other century.

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> Brother. I am very happy for all of this. Throughout my life it was just in the last two or three years that i really have noticed all these advances in technology and military now we can say that Iran has a remarkable difference in technology and Medical and military zone from other Middle Eastern countries. Except for Israel and Turkey that are ahead of us in some areas because of lack of sanctions. I really do not want to see Iran in another war or revolution just when its turning into the Middle East power again. because if that happens, it will set us back form the world latest technology for an other century.



And these are only the things they are making public!
https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...-از-یک-دستاورد-مهم-نیروی-هوافضای-سپاه-به-مجلس
The IRGC Aerospace forces in particular have made advanced at unbelievable speeds that are shocking and I would give a lot of the credit to people like Tehrani Moghadam that drilling the proper mentality and proper project management skills into the heads of the guys over there in the IRGC R&D teams.

And what so amazing is that they didn't start out with large amount of funding and it's not like the government handed them Billions to work with at a time when they couldn't even build a scud nor were they operating missiles for that long and yet all they have achieved is amazing and to think what they could achieve in the next 20 years if they continue down this path will likely continue to shock everyone!

As for War no one wants a war but even if we have to fight one we won't be set back 100 years just as Germany wasn't thrown back 100 years post WW2 but it would be a major set back in terms of infrastructure but NOT technology!

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1053782471018463233


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## Websorber

*Pics of missile debris from an Iranian missile launch Near the village of Fakhrabad *
*(34°18′17″N 58°09′13″E) *
*
















*

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## skyshadow



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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


>



That was a poor mistake by Tal Inbar. This is not a umbilical but a structural pad on which the missile sits.

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


>




The diameter is no bigger than a Zolfaghar at best! and it most definitely is not anywhere close 1.5 Meters like the Khoramshar 






PeeD said:


> That was a poor mistake by Tal Inbar. This is not a umbilical but a structural pad on which the missile sits.










Websorber said:


> *Pics of missile debris from an Iranian missile launch Near the village of Fakhrabad *
> *(34°18′17″N 58°09′13″E) *
> *
> View attachment 507734
> View attachment 507735
> View attachment 507736
> View attachment 507737
> View attachment 507738
> *

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## Raghfarm007

WordsMatter said:


> Your missiles keep falling short of their targets... why is that? Are they designed and developed by your seminary graduates?  Or is it that they are made by IRIGC? I bet it's both.



Just a quick personal question.... are you mentally retarded?? Don't get offended now, just want to kow....

I only ask, cause anyone would know that these missiles have separating warheads, and the body detached and falls away....

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## Websorber

*Iran's Missiles Keep Getting Better and Better (As in More Advanced and Deadly)*

*https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ter-and-better-more-advanced-and-deadly-35267*

*



*

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## VEVAK

Websorber said:


> *Iran's Missiles Keep Getting Better and Better (As in More Advanced and Deadly)*
> 
> *https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ter-and-better-more-advanced-and-deadly-35267*
> 
> *
> View attachment 515752
> *



Nice but Iran is still short of a precision guided (CEP under 20meters) solid fuel missile for ranges between 800-1600km that are either:
1.Relatively low cost and can be mass produced in numbers greater than 100 per year 
OR 
2.A wider diameter missile for those ranges than can at least deliver 4 or more 1000lb MIRV to that range and that accuracy where producing 25 or more a year will be sufficient

Personally I think the 2nd option would be a more economically and tacitly sound decision that would require less missiles, less manpower, less Launchers & bases that will not only give you the ability to hide and protect them better but at the same time deliver a higher number of payloads at a much faster pace 


Also the BEST way to address Iran's storage problems, missile fueling & launch problems especially for liquid fuel missiles is by focusing on building wider diameter boosters capable of delivering 4 or more 1000lb warheads even for ranges of 500-2000km

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## Draco.IMF

Can anyone say whats happened with the Sejji missile family?
We didnt had any updated since Sejjil 2 as far as I know
Is there still development behind the curtains or did the program discontinued after Tehrani Moghaddams death?
Or was the missile just to expensive?


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## Stryker1982

Draco.IMF said:


> Can anyone say whats happened with the Sejji missile family?
> We didnt had any updated since Sejjil 2 as far as I know
> Is there still development behind the curtains or did the program discontinued after Tehrani Moghaddams death?
> Or was the missile just do to expensive?



Sejjil 2 is done. No news regarding it anymore because it's already been completed and operational.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

Stryker1982 said:


> Sejjil 2 is done. No news regarding it anymore because it's already been completed and operational.


but every other missile is being improved all the time, why no improvements and when was last test firing of sejjil 2?

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## raptor22

Draco.IMF said:


> Can anyone say whats happened with the Sejji missile family?
> We didnt had any updated since Sejjil 2 as far as I know
> Is there still development behind the curtains or did the program discontinued after Tehrani Moghaddams death?
> Or was the missile just to expensive?


As Far as I know operational.


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## skyshadow

In this video, Uzi Rubin pointing the development of the Khoramshahr missile program.

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## yavar



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## skyshadow



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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> In this video, Uzi Rubin pointing the development of the Khoramshahr missile program.


What a pack of scumbags,its like watching a bunch of nazis circle jerk.....








skyshadow said:


>







I really like the 3rd question about irans "nuclear testing"[LOL!]

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## skyshadow

explosion site of the Mr. Tehrani Moghadam






new missile?


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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> explosion site of the Mr. Tehrani Moghadam
> 
> View attachment 520545
> 
> 
> new missile?
> 
> View attachment 520552
> View attachment 520553


Thats an interesting one,its an air launched optically guided cruise missile.Up until now it just be the one prototype thats been clearly based on the rocket boosted ghassed 3 air launched pgm and looks to have been built using actual ghassed 3 parts.The one shown in the picture appears to be a different build from this as it clearly is much better built and also has a much shorter cable duct[?] on top of the airframe.Hopefully we get to see some more of it in the near future

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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> Thats an interesting one,its an air launched optically guided cruise missile.Up until now it just be the one prototype thats been clearly based on the rocket boosted ghassed 3 air launched pgm and looks to have been built using actual ghassed 3 parts.The one shown in the picture appears to be a different build from this as it clearly is much better built and also has a much shorter cable duct[?] on top of the airframe.Hopefully we get to see some more of it in the near future



It looks small. Do you think that this cruise missile can reach 100 km rage?


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## drmeson

BT posted video of Sejjil-2 with less than 50 M CEP. Anyone has that ?


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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> It looks small. Do you think that this cruise missile can reach 100 km rage?


Dont underestimate the range of a small air launched cruise missile.This is based on the ghassed 3 which is rocket powered and has a range of around 75-100km just using that,so depending on the weight of this thing and whether it uses a turbojet or turbofan,then I`d say the range of this weapon is at least 100km if not twice that or even more in fact,after all theres no reason you cant use passive or active radar seekers,satellite navigation,passive optical targeting,or a combination to make it a true fire and forget weapon to take advantage of its possible maximum range or use man in the loop for shorter ranged targets.

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## skyshadow

"The price of a F-16 fighter plane with its arsenal of weapon and training is about $ 200 million USD. 

for 200 million USD Iran will make about 500 ballistic missile with 2000 km range." *Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh*

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## Stryker1982

drmeson said:


> BT posted video of Sejjil-2 with less than 50 M CEP. Anyone has that ?







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045295188661424128

Look at this scumbag Michael Ellemen (Known for being a terrible Iran missile "analyst")

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045299505246203904
The fact that he finds this "troubling" gives me alot of pleasure.


Imagine being this retarded.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045324214658641920

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045324852121546752

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045414197646041089

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045414596662693889

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## mohsen

skyshadow said:


> "The price of a F-16 fighter plane with its arsenal of weapon and training is about $ 200 million USD.
> 
> for 200 million USD Iran will make about 500 ballistic missile with 2000 km range." *Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh*


to be more specific, he said each of our missiles costs from $100k to $400k, though he didn't say whether these are all 2000km range or not.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

mohsen said:


> to be more specific, he said each of our missiles costs from $100k to $400k, though he didn't say whether these are all 2000km range or not.


500 of the most expensive missiles ($400,000) = $200m, so presumably the most expensive ones are 2000km range

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## mohsen

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> 500 of the most expensive missiles ($400,000) = $200m, so presumably the most expensive ones are 2000km range


Khorramshaher, sejil, Qadr, Shahab, these are all 2000km range, with different prices obviously, that's the point of question.

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## skyshadow

mohsen said:


> to be more specific, he said each of our missiles costs from $100k to $400k, though he didn't say whether these are all 2000km range or not.


he said i will tell you our most expensive that are 400k. so only our 2000km range are the most expensive.



mohsen said:


> Khorramshaher, sejil, Qadr, Shahab, these are all 2000km range, with different prices obviously, that's the point of question.


let us just say 300 missiles. its still a big number

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> he said i will tell you our most expensive that are 400k. so only our 2000km range are the most expensive.
> 
> 
> let us just say 300 missiles. its still a big number



Indeed. A few billion in investment in production of precision guided missile with 2000km over 1-3 years (which really isn't crazy amounts for a country like Iran) would have Iran's defense needs fulfilled for 10+ years.

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> Indeed. A few billion in investment in production of precision guided missile with 2000km over 1-3 years (which really isn't crazy amounts for a country like Iran) would have Iran's defense needs fulfilled for 10+ years.


I agree. Plus a long range bomber drone.

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> to be more specific, he said each of our missiles costs from $100k to $400k, though he didn't say whether these are all 2000km range or not.


Usually our 2000km missile are more expensive but you must consider the fact that they are not the bulk of what we use in battle , they are there to deter enemy from starting something like the war of the cities we previously faced. In case of war in certain the missile of the fate family or something like Qiam and also rocket like fajr will be the weapon of choice and those are a lot cheaper than for example Sedjil .

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## Raghfarm007

Irgc general talks about targeting US bases and ships

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## Philip the Arab

Raghfarm007 said:


> Irgc general talks about targeting US bases and ships


Individual missiles not utilising WMDs are of a minimal value. The most they can do is attack military bases and civilian centers. The latter which would be a very cowardly thing to do and why Saudi Arabia didint use theirs during the Gulf war. CEP is not a concern when using WMD because the warhead will affect a great area. Its tricky business to make a accurate missile and I don't think it's something the Iranians actually need. Who are they going to be attacking in the case of war? Cities,military bases. These are large targets that don't need a good CEP. If your Gulf neighbors get nukes which they could It would be unadvisable to launch missiles in fear of retaliation of a much more deadly scale. It wouldn't be hard or them to get Uranium after all Jordan the country has at least 65000 tons of uranium underground which could be enriched made into a simple nuclear weapon such as the gun type which is very crude but effective. Thaad and patriot systems would be ineffective at destroying barrages of missiles so thats where I would go if I was an Iranian missile commander. Once the missiles would be launched Iran's fate would be sealed. If Iran attacked Israel there's nothing you could really do. Nukes would get through. You probably won't be able to penetate their anti ballistic missiles though. Don't be offended if I told you this. I recognise the capabilities of Iran without bias and you should too.


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## Stryker1982

YvngEngineer said:


> Individual missiles not utilising WMDs are of a minimal value. The most they can do is attack military bases and civilian centers. The latter which would be a very cowardly thing to do and why Saudi Arabia didint use theirs during the Gulf war. CEP is not a concern when using WMD because the warhead will affect a great area. Its tricky business to make a accurate missile and I don't think it's something the Iranians actually need. Who are they going to be attacking in the case of war? Cities,military bases. These are large targets that don't need a good CEP. If your Gulf neighbors get nukes which they could It would be unadvisable to launch missiles in fear of retaliation of a much more deadly scale. It wouldn't be hard or them to get Uranium after all Jordan the country has at least 65000 tons of uranium underground which could be enriched made into a simple nuclear weapon such as the gun type which is very crude but effective. Thaad and patriot systems would be ineffective at destroying barrages of missiles so thats where I would go if I was an Iranian missile commander. Once the missiles would be launched Iran's fate would be sealed. If Iran attacked Israel there's nothing you could really do. Nukes would get through. You probably won't be able to penetate their anti ballistic missiles though. Don't be offended if I told you this. I recognise the capabilities of Iran without bias and you should too.



Minimal Value??

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## Philip the Arab

Stryker1982 said:


> Minimal Value??


Yes minimal value. You call Kurds a threat? They are barely developed. Yes they are a minimal value. There is maybe a few thousand pound warhead. One tomahawk missile with a nuclear missile could destroy Tehran. It would take probably 50-100 Ballistic Missiles to destroy Riyadh. Unless of course you armed them with chemical weapons which would be a dirty bomb.


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## Philip the Arab

And lel those missiles are small compared to scud and other comparable missiles. Of course if the Kurds had air defence they could take those missiles out.


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## Stryker1982

YvngEngineer said:


> Yes minimal value. You call Kurds a threat? They are barely developed. Yes they are a minimal value. There is maybe a few thousand pound warhead. One tomahawk missile with a nuclear missile could destroy Tehran. It would take probably 50-100 Ballistic Missiles to destroy Riyadh. Unless of course you armed them with chemical weapons which would be a dirty bomb.



It hurts how dumb you are. 

Non-WMD Precision guided missiles are the main tool for power projection for every global power. That's why the U.S has them, and every strong country in the world (China, Russian, Pakistan, India, UK, France, Italy etc..) stocks hundreds even thousands of them on huge fleets of warships, or jets, or land to strike static targets from far distances. In any attack, a strong country armed with precision guided missiles would fire 100's in an overwhelming barrage to strategic targets all around a country, to paralyze a country from safe distances. See Nato first strike on Iraq (Nato destroyed most of Iraq's air-force on the ground), on Syria, on Libya from both sea and air. The ability to do this is what 90% of nations dream about. Iranian strike on Kurdish terrorists is just an example of what Iran can do with precision guided missiles, but on a small scale. Those missiles are smaller because they are of shorter range than scud missiles. If you fail to understand any of this, I can't help you from embarrassing yourself.

But naturally, you go on a rant about how one us nuclear missile can wipe out Tehran as if that proves anything about the value of missiles. Thanks for the useless information...

Also, 50-100 Ballistics missiles is well within Iran's capability, and arming them with chemical weapons should not be an issue for Iranian scientists as well if Iran is forced to use WMD's.

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## Philip the Arab

Stryker1982 said:


> It hurts how dumb you are.
> 
> Non-WMD Precision guided missiles are the main tool for power projection for every global power. That's why the U.S has them, and every strong country in the world (China, Russian, Pakistan, India, UK, France, Italy etc..) stocks hundreds even thousands of them on huge fleets of warships, or jets, or land to strike static targets from far distances. In any attack, a strong country armed with precision guided missiles would fire 100's in an overwhelming barrage to strategic targets all around a country, to paralyze a country from safe distances. See Nato first strike on Iraq (Nato destroyed most of Iraq's air-force on the ground), on Syria, on Libya from both sea and air. The ability to do this is what 90% of nations dream about. Iranian strike on Kurdish terrorists is just an example of what Iran can do with precision guided missiles, but on a small scale. Those missiles are smaller because they are of shorter range than scud missiles. If you fail to understand any of this, I can't help you from embarrassing yourself.
> 
> But naturally, you go on a rant about how one us nuclear missile can wipe out Tehran as if that proves anything about the value of missiles. Thanks for the useless information...
> 
> Also, 50-100 Ballistics missiles is well within Iran's capability, and arming them with chemical weapons should not be an issue for Iranian scientists as well if Iran is forced to use WMD's.


Yes precision missiles but the U.S. rarely launches the from land. Those missiles in the video arent cruise missiles they are tac ballistic missiles. U.S. never uses Tactical Ballistic Missiles. Tomahawk missiles are either launched by Air,or sea. Land bases launching of missiles are too risky and too stationary. Those missiles are not good at evading air defences compared to nap of the earth cruise missiles. So there is a major difference between your precision guided weapons and the U.S. precision guided weapons. Again with land launched missiles you have to move them into position and they have no ability to avoid retaliation by the enemy.


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## Stryker1982

YvngEngineer said:


> Yes precision missiles but the U.S. rarely launches the from land. Those missiles in the video arent cruise missiles they are tac ballistic missiles. U.S. never uses Tactical Ballistic Missiles. Tomahawk missiles are either launched by Air,or sea. Land bases launching of missiles are too risky and too stationary. Those missiles are not good at evading air defences compared to nap of the earth cruise missiles. So there is a major difference between your precision guided weapons and the U.S. precision guided weapons. Again with land launched missiles you have to move them into position and they have no ability to avoid retaliation by the enemy.



Literally half of your reply is sticking to the word "*land*" and *"U.S tomahawks" *when I said "huge fleets of warships, or jets, or land" AFTER that fact I mentioned half a dozen countries that have missiles (some of which, on land too). Sometimes it is safer to fire a 2000km missile from a huge land mass where it is difficult to find, than it is on a ship that can constantly be tracked at sea. 

Let me give you an example. Tell me this. *Would it be harder to find a 2000km range Chinese missile launcher on the Chinese land mass or is it harder for the U.S to track the location of Chinese missile carriers?
*
*






Look at where China can launch missiles at U.S targets in Manilla from land.
Do you think huge Chinese ships that are monitored 24/7 are safer? *You cannot hide!​
Also, I'm not going to waste my time with you about the maneuverability and speed that a SRBM is capable of when it comes to air defenses penetration.


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## Philip the Arab

Stryker1982 said:


> Literally half of your reply is sticking to the word "*land*" and *"U.S tomahawks" *when I said "huge fleets of warships, or jets, or land" AFTER that fact I mentioned half a dozen countries that have missiles (some of which, on land too). Sometimes it is safer to fire a 2000km missile from a huge land mass where it is difficult to find, than it is on a ship that can constantly be tracked at sea.
> 
> Let me give you an example. Tell me this. *Would it be harder to find a 2000km range Chinese missile launcher on the Chinese land mass or is it harder for the U.S to track the location of Chinese missile carriers?
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at where China can launch missiles at U.S targets in Manilla from land.
> Do you think huge Chinese ships that are monitored 24/7 are safer? *You cannot hide!​
> Also, I'm not going to waste my time with you about the maneuverability and speed that a SRBM is capable of when it comes to air defenses penetration.


Do you think the U.S. would not have Patriot or THAAD missiles protecting their troops. Both of those could easily intercept any missiles that China fired. Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries already have the Patriot and some have THAAD. And yes the U.S. would know where the missiles are launched from as easily as finding where they are launched from the sea. Do you honestly think that the U.S. can't see everything China, Russia and, Iran are doing? There retaliatory attacks would be overkill. Missiles are hard to launch in barrages especially because Iran's Missiles are not launched from Silos they are launched from TELs which could be easily spotted from satellites. You need to stop overestimating Iran. And no I'm not underestimating Iran, I'm factoring in the Big Daddy the USA.


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## Stryker1982

YvngEngineer said:


> easily spotted from satellites



lol.



YvngEngineer said:


> launched from as easily as finding where they are launched from the sea


lol


YvngEngineer said:


> Iran's Missiles are not launched from Silos


lran has silos too fyi.

I'm getting tired..


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## Philip the Arab

Stryker1982 said:


> lol.
> 
> 
> lol
> 
> lran has silos too fyi.
> 
> I'm getting tired..


You don't know most of the capabilities the u.s. has. Stop being retarded and look at all the satellites they have. The U.S. knows everything in these days.


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## scimitar19

Hack-Hook said:


> Usually our 2000km missile are more expensive but you must consider the fact that they are not the bulk of what we use in battle , they are there to deter enemy from starting something like the war of the cities we previously faced. In case of war in certain the missile of the fate family or something like Qiam and also rocket like fajr will be the weapon of choice and those are a lot cheaper than for example Sedjil .



Call me immoral, the bases that Hajizadeh showed in presentation are the size of some small city since they need to house large infrastructure and suprastructure roads, runways, hangars of all sizes and types, housing buildings, command centers, barracks, maintenance buildings, radars, support buildings, etz... Some of these bases are secluded from civilian small towns and large cities and why bother raining down so many ballistic missiles when you can take it out with one shot. I would consider using ballistic missile small grade nuclear MARV warheads just to obliterate entire base with one single shot or develop stealth cruise missile like JASSM-ER (those things are very deadly and will replace tomahawk cruise missiles in the future)...


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## Hack-Hook

scimitar19 said:


> Call me immoral, the bases that Hajizadeh showed in presentation are the size of some small city since they need to house large infrastructure and suprastructure roads, runways, hangars of all sizes and types, housing buildings, command centers, barracks, maintenance buildings, radars, support buildings, etz... Some of these bases are secluded from civilian small towns and large cities and why bother raining down so many ballistic missiles when you can take it out with one shot. I would consider using ballistic missile small grade nuclear MARV warheads just to obliterate entire base with one single shot or develop stealth cruise missile like JASSM-ER (those things are very deadly and will replace tomahawk cruise missiles in the future)...


The bases are big but point of interest in those bases are limited , what's the use of hitting parking lot or lavatories ? When 5 or 6 precision hit can effectively shut down a base why go nuclear and buy bad Public Relation for yourself .

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## yavar



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## TheImmortal

scimitar19 said:


> Call me immoral, the bases that Hajizadeh showed in presentation are the size of some small city since they need to house large infrastructure and suprastructure roads, runways, hangars of all sizes and types, housing buildings, command centers, barracks, maintenance buildings, radars, support buildings, etz... Some of these bases are secluded from civilian small towns and large cities and why bother raining down so many ballistic missiles when you can take it out with one shot. I would consider using ballistic missile small grade nuclear MARV warheads just to obliterate entire base with one single shot or develop stealth cruise missile like JASSM-ER (those things are very deadly and will replace tomahawk cruise missiles in the future)...



Do all you guys learn military tactics from Hollywood movies and Call of Duty?

If you first idea to any potential military engagement is “durrrr drop nuclear bomb durrr see look I won” then please save everyone’s IQ from dropping and don’t even comment.

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## Philip the Arab

TheImmortal said:


> Do all you guys learn military tactics from Hollywood movies and Call of Duty?
> 
> If you first idea to any potential military engagement is “durrrr drop nuclear bomb durrr see look I won” then please save everyone’s IQ from dropping and don’t even comment.


You do know the Tomahawk missile had a nuclear payload until the end of the cold war right? Tactical nuclear weapons are useful. Look at all the projects the u.s. has with Davy Crockett artillery launched. Maybe today since Iran doesent have any nuclear weapons they wouldn't use tactical nuclear weapons. But what I think would be better than nuke at taking out military bases are MOABs. Nukes aren't the first thing that happens but Nuclear war can escalate quickly.


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## Raghfarm007

YvngEngineer said:


> You don't know most of the capabilities the u.s. has. Stop being retarded and look at all the satellites they have. The U.S. knows everything in these days.



Now it becomes clear why palestinians/jordanians are such losers.....

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## Philip the Arab

Raghfarm007 said:


> Now it becomes clear why palestinians/jordanians are such losers.....


Your retarded. I grew up in America and am smarter than you autistic pig. Don't insult my country. You're country is the one that has losers. Losing to the Arabs in a matter of years. Iran copies it's missiles from American, Chinese and, Russian technology and acts like it's theirs. Copying missiles isn't something to be proud of. I know much more about how missiles work and how to effectively use them than you. You had nothing to say so you said your country is bad with no proof.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

Raghfarm007 said:


> Now it becomes clear why palestinians/jordanians are such losers.....


who are the losers, the palestinians or the akhoonds who sacrifice everything and destroy iran to lick the balls of the palestinians?

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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> who are the losers, the palestinians or the akhoonds who sacrifice everything and destroy iran to lick the balls of the palestinians?


I'm not Palestinian am I? Jordan and Palestine are 2 different countries. Jordan has a respectable military while Palestine has virtually no military. I don't speak Farsi so don't talk to me in it. You're kind of gay. Why do you think of licking someone else's balls?


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## Raghfarm007

Yes yes... me retard.... you cleaver man..... My contry bad for making missiles.... your "country" good because it was created by England, and the your king is a little gay boy whos mother was an English prostitue....

Very good.....by the way.... which kabab shop do you work in.... with all your cleverness?! LOL


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## Persian Gulf 1906

YvngEngineer said:


> I'm not Palestinian am I? Jordan and Palestine are 2 different countries. Jordan has a respectable military while Palestine has virtually no military. I don't speak Farsi so don't talk to me in it. You're kind of gay. Why do you think of licking someone else's balls?


i didn't say you are palestinian or give a shit about you

go cry about working for saudi arabia with your genius ideas for grenade launchers

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## Philip the Arab

Raghfarm007 said:


> Yes yes... me retard.... you cleaver man..... My contry bad for making missiles.... your "country" good because it was created by England, and the your king is a little gay boy whos mother was an English prostitue....
> 
> Very good.....by the way.... which kabab shop do you work in.... with all your cleverness?! LOL


Learn English for one. Contry, cleaver. You're country pre the dirty ayatollah was instituted by the West and the Soviets. Which rug factory do you work at piece of garbage? At least my king doesent have a terrorist beard like your leader.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

YvngEngineer said:


> Learn English for one. Contry, cleaver. You're country pre the dirty ayatollah was instituted by the West and the Soviets. Which rug factory do you work at piece of garbage? At least my king doesent have a terrorist beard like your leader.


Your*
doesn't*

If you're going to tell others to learn English you should at least have the decency to follow your own advice.


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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> i didn't say you are palestinian or give a shit about you
> 
> go cry about working for saudi arabia with your genius ideas for grenade launchers


Saudi Arabia is much richer than your country per capita. Much more opportunity to work their especially because they spend 10 times your budget and 2030. **** your family faggot.


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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> Your*
> doesn't*
> 
> If you're going to tell others to learn English you should at least have the decency to follow your own advice.


Autocorrect exists you do know right?


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## Persian Gulf 1906

YvngEngineer said:


> Saudi Arabia is much richer than your country per capita. Much more opportunity to work their especially because they spend 10 times your budget and 2030. **** your family faggot.


there*

Was that autocorrect too Mr. Virgin Genius Grenade Launcher Inventor?


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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> there*
> 
> Was that autocorrect too Mr. Virgin Genius Grenade Launcher Inventor?


Those things are rather easy to make. I have schematics and could easily make it myself.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

YvngEngineer said:


> Those things are rather easy to make. I have schematics and could easily make it myself. Not my fault *your* a low IQ piece of scum straight from the bottom of my shoe. **** you, **** your family, and lastly **** your country.


you're*


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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> you're*


You are just going to keep pointing out random things that have no usefulness about my spelling. You have nothing useful to say because you are a loser 35 year old piece of garbage arguing with a 14 year old.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

YvngEngineer said:


> You are just going to keep pointing out random things that have no usefulness about my spelling. You have nothing useful to say because you are a loser 35 year old piece of garbage arguing with a 14 year old.


I think my contributions of exposing the irony of you insulting the English proficiency and IQ of other members whilst you yourself make repeated basic spelling and grammar mistakes is very useful, actually.

Stay at school buddy, you've got a lot of growing to do.

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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> I think my contributions of exposing the irony of you insulting the English proficiency and IQ of other members whilst you yourself make repeated basic spelling and grammar mistakes is very useful, actually.


Autocorrect is turned on and it takes too long to backspace and fix it because this program is rather new. Not my fault the program has no clue what I'm saying.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

YvngEngineer said:


> Autocorrect is turned on and it takes too long to backspace and fix it because this program is rather new. Not my fault the program has no clue what I'm saying.


Isn't it funny that you were telling The SC that you don't speak good Arabic so that might hold you back from working for SAMI, but the real news is that you barely speak English!


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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> Isn't it funny that you were telling The SC that you don't speak good Arabic so that might hold you back from working for SAMI, but the real news is that you barely speak English!


I'm American. I speak English at a very high level. I know words that you most likely do not. Typing English and speaking English are very different. Somebody can spell very well and not speak very well and vice versa.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

YvngEngineer said:


> I'm American. I speak English at a very high level. I know words that you most likely do not. Typing English and speaking English are very different. Somebody can spell very well and not speak and vice versa.


That's much better, you must have tried extra hard not to make any mistakes that time. Keep it up little guy!


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## Philip the Arab

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> That's much better, you must have tried extra hard not to make any mistakes that time. Keep it up little guy!



Ok failure to launch. I'll do my best. Do you even have a job? I use this forum because I want to work in the industry. You use this for no apparent reason to me.


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## Philip the Arab

YvngEngineer said:


> Ok failure to launch. I'll do my best. Do you even have a job? I use this forum because I want to work in the industry. You use this for no apparent reason to me.


Anyway I don't really like cancer in my life so I will avoid you. Don't be surprised if Majin Buu turns your whole family including you into candy and eats you. Don't say I did not warn you.


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## scimitar19

TheImmortal said:


> Do all you guys learn military tactics from Hollywood movies and Call of Duty?
> 
> If you first idea to any potential military engagement is “durrrr drop nuclear bomb durrr see look I won” then please save everyone’s IQ from dropping and don’t even comment.



Ohhh did my low IQ comment had such devastating impact on your intelligence to drop even lower. Lemme save you the trouble of painful and agonizing process of thinking.... In future refrain from commenting or ignore my comments in the first place!


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## Stryker1982

YvngEngineer said:


> Ok failure to launch. I'll do my best. Do you even have a job? I use this forum because I want to work in the industry. You use this for no apparent reason to me.



You're probably a child, stop wasting people's time with nonsense comments.

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## Philip the Arab

Stryker1982 said:


> You're probably a child, stop wasting people's time with nonsense comments.


Whatever floats your boat


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## Sineva

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> you're*


Oh sh!t,hes one of those people who doesnt know the difference between "your" and "you`re".....hes a fvcking trump voter [lol!]

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## Stryker1982

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> but every other missile is being improved all the time, why no improvements and when was last test firing of sejjil 2?



Not too long ago, BT talked about success in enhancing the warheads terminal accuracy of our 2000km missiles like Sejjil-2. Other than that, the design of the missile was a success.

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## VEVAK

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> 500 of the most expensive missiles ($400,000) = $200m, so presumably the most expensive ones are 2000km range



The price ($400K) likely does not include the fuel cost(Liquid), storage & upkeep costs, training costs,....
For any country buying American weapons the AiM-9X air to air missile costs ~$600k USD so in terms of cost choosing 500 MRBM over a single F-15 clearly makes sense but only up to a point because even if Iran increases it's MRBM's accuracy to 50 meters it still doesn't make up for Iran's requirement of both strike aircraft and air superiority fighters that are equipped with various types of newer and smarter weapons. Today technologically we are already at a point where a single fighter can deploy as many as 40 or more independently powered smart munitions where the munitions don't even need to penetrate an aircraft bunker and can simply fly inside or even stock their target 

And I believe the only thing that could possibly remove Iran's need for manned fighter jets in the future is Quantum com's that will make manned fighters obsolete when compared with newer gen UCAV's.

As for the Sejil-2 for how many years is Iran spose to repeatedly test a proven booster? Iran started testing the missile in 2007 with it's 1st successful test in 2009 and we have had repeated launches since.


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## Persian Gulf 1906

VEVAK said:


> As for the Sejil-2 for how many years is Iran spose to repeatedly test a proven booster? Iran started testing the missile in 2007 with it's 1st successful test in 2009 and we have had repeated launches since.


3-4 launches of the sejil 2 in total in about 10 years? they should keep making improvements and show mass production of it or something (or rather it would be nice if they did)


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## 925boy

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> 3-4 launches of the sejil 2 in total in about 10 years? they should keep making improvements and show mass production of it or something (or rather it would be nice if they did)


Lack of launches might not be a technical issue but a political one. Iran testing advanced IRBM is considered provocative these days.just sayin..

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## TheImmortal

My guess Sejil 2 was created and production line was fulfilled. It is probably more expensive than an ghadr missile. Thus only a limited amount was produced.

Thus the missile was stored away likely in iran’s silos for first strike attacks in case of war. It was replacing the liquid Shahab-3’s that were on stand-by in the silos.

I don’t think there will be a Sejil-3. I think the Kermanshah missile shows that the next evolution is to go for larger diameter missiles 
That is if Iran is trying to develop longer range and eventual ICBM missiles.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

TheImmortal said:


> I don’t think there will be a Sejil-3. I think the Kermanshah missile shows that the next evolution is to go for larger diameter missiles
> That is if Iran is trying to develop longer range and eventual ICBM missiles.


you mean khorramshahr missile

why not use sejjil 2 as test bed to increase diameter of a proven solid fuel indigenous platform, instead of switching to a whole new design (khorramshahr), which failed its first test and seems to be based on hwasong 10 (which has a terrible record in testing for NK)?

i don't think bigger diameter and bigger missiles is for ICBM, i think it's for MIRV warheads


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## TheImmortal

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> you mean khorramshahr missile
> 
> why not use sejjil 2 as test bed to increase diameter of a proven solid fuel indigenous platform, instead of switching to a whole new design (khorramshahr), which failed its first test and seems to be based on hwasong 10 (which has a terrible record in testing for NK)?
> 
> i don't think bigger diameter and bigger missiles is for ICBM, i think it's for MIRV warheads



Diameter of missiles:

Sejill 2: 1.25-1.5 m
Minutemen III ICBM: 1.7 m
Samat ICBM: 3 m
DF-31: 2.25 m
Agni-VI: 2 m
Hwasong-15: 2.4

As you can see most ICBMs carry significantly more powerful engine clusters than what Iran currently possesses especially in solid fuel category.

For Iran to achieve ICBM capability I would expect diameter of an Iranian ICBM to be at least 2.25-2.5 m similar to what other countries have fielded.

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## Hack-Hook

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> why not use sejjil 2 as test bed to increase diameter of a proven solid fuel indigenous platform, instead of switching to a whole new design (khorramshahr), which failed its first test and seems to be based on hwasong 10 (which has a terrible record in testing for NK)?


because a bigger diameter solid fuel missile need a bigger diameter solid fuel engine and unlike liquid fuel engines you can't strap 4 of them to each other. and probably test of such engines that martyred Tehrani moghadam

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## Persian Gulf 1906

Hack-Hook said:


> because a bigger diameter solid fuel missile need a bigger diameter solid fuel engine and unlike liquid fuel engines you can't strap 4 of them to each other. and probably test of such engines that martyred Tehrani moghadam


ah I didn't know that difference between scaling up solid vs liquid fuel missiles. makes sense to go for bigger liquid fuel missiles first then, sepas


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## skyshadow

zelzal

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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> because a bigger diameter solid fuel missile need a bigger diameter solid fuel engine and unlike liquid fuel engines you can't strap 4 of them to each other. and probably test of such engines that martyred Tehrani moghadam



Tehrani’s death was either a foreign assination attempt or just Iranian negligence. 

His presence at the military base was entirely coincidental. Allegedly a static discharge caused a ignition in one of the missiles leading to chain reaction at the nearby storage of other missiles.

Besides the death of Tehrani, it remains to be seen how many other missile engineers died that day and how vital they were to the program.

Unfortunately, it appears that the loss of life has lead to stagnation in Iranian missile development. While allegedly Iran’s excuse is that they are focusing on improving accuracy of existing missiles, something tells me they have suffered a significant setback in long range BM development due to that incident.

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## Myself

The satellite photos taken right after the explosion in Bidgoneh clearly proved the assassination theory. All buildings were exploded internally; while the test site was at least one kilometer far from the explosion.

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## Sineva

TheImmortal said:


> Tehrani’s death was either a foreign assination attempt or just Iranian negligence.
> 
> His presence at the military base was entirely coincidental. Allegedly a static discharge caused a ignition in one of the missiles leading to chain reaction at the nearby storage of other missiles.
> 
> Besides the death of Tehrani, it remains to be seen how many other missile engineers died that day and how vital they were to the program.
> 
> Unfortunately, it appears that the loss of life has lead to stagnation in Iranian missile development. While allegedly Iran’s excuse is that they are focusing on improving accuracy of existing missiles, something tells me they have suffered a significant setback in long range BM development due to that incident.


When it comes to further strategic solid fuel missile developments I think you`re right,however when it comes to liquid fueled missiles the lack of further development and testing [khorramshahr] seems to be purely political.

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## yavar

_Iran Ballistic Missile Test_ Violates UN Resolution, Pompeo Says


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068904393821573120


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## Persian Gulf 1906

yavar said:


> _Iran Ballistic Missile Test_ Violates UN Resolution, Pompeo Says


total bullshit, and coming from the US who actually violated UNSCR 2231!

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## skyshadow

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-Iran-Russia-North-Korea-destroy-America.html


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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> total bullshit, and coming from the US who actually violated UNSCR 2231!


its been 2 years. welcome back khoramshahr

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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> its been 2 years. welcome back khoramshahr


hope they managed to fix the problems from the first test

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## yavar

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> hope they managed to fix the problems from the first test


this is U.S. Secretary of Defense Gen. Jim Mattis this is opinion on test his bas seen classified satellite imagery and telemetric of the test

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## Persian Gulf 1906

yavar said:


> this is U.S. Secretary of Defense Gen. Jim Mattis this is opinion on test his bas seen classified satellite imagery and telemetric of the test


He doesn't say anything useful about the launch I don't know why you shared this....

"violated *the* *sense of *the UNSCR" - I wonder what he would call the US reimposing sanctions and *actually *violating UNSCR 2231.

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## yavar

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> He doesn't say anything useful about the launch I


multiple warheads. he's been briefed before he showed up in public venue
they are confirming that we have MRV technology and we have it in service as we speak,
so meaning the Israel .US missile defense are useless


and watch the video from 0:53 he answers your question

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## Persian Gulf 1906

yavar said:


> multiple warheads.
> they are confirming that we have MRV technology and we have it in service as we speak,
> so meaning the Israel .US missile defense are useless


Where in your video did Mattis say that? He doesn't even say the words 'multiple warheads', the reporter just asks him about Pompeo's statement and Mattis clearly doesn't know much about it because he just talks about general useless things like 'strategic threat of Iran could grow' blah blah 

No confirmation that the launch was successful this time, and I don't think Khorramshahr itself has MIRV, just that it introduces that capability in the future because it is much bigger


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## yavar

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> Where in your video did Mattis say that? He doesn't even say the words 'multiple warheads',




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068904393821573120tomorrow Pompeo is going to be on Fox and specify going to talk about Iran missile launch.
maybe then we get evidence



Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> I don't think Khorramshahr itself has MIRV,


MRV not MIRV


watch the video from 0:53 he answers your question and look at his body language



Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> I don't think Khorramshahr itself has MIRV,









Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> I don't think Khorramshahr itself has MIRV,


watch from 0:05


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## Persian Gulf 1906

yavar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1068904393821573120tomorrow Pompeo is going to be on Fox and specify going to talk about Iran missile launch.
> maybe then we get evidence


that is his job to exaggerate and fear-monger about Iran, so we cannot believe everything he says, he has an interest to exaggerate Iran's military abilities


yavar said:


> MRV not MIRV


in the video the reporter says "multiple independent warheads" but now you say MRV not MIRV?

I interpret Mattis' answer as not really knowing much, I think if he knew more he would want to talk about it to exaggerate, like this US administration if Iran sneezes they make tweets and press conference about it, so Mattis not talking about it in the video I think is because he doesn't know, rather than he doesn't want to say...

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## TheImmortal

Iran having MRV technology is not groundbreaking since even the Shahab family could carry cluster warheads for a number of years.

MIRV is useless with iran’s current missiles and the fact they carry conventional warheads. MIRV only makes sense in the case of nuclear warheads.


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## Websorber

*Iran Test Launches Ballistic Missile Violating UN Security Council Ban*

*https://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2018/12/287722.htm*


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## sanel1412

yavar said:


> multiple warheads. he's been briefed before he showed up in public venue
> they are confirming that we have MRV technology and we have it in service as we speak,
> so meaning the Israel .US missile defense are useless
> 
> 
> and watch the video from 0:53 he answers your question


MIRV not MRV...and thing is that this missile payload is 1800kg...so in practice it can carry 3 independent 700kg warheads and hit 3 different targets...of coursethere is no informaton how many wargeads it can carry and wight of every warhead...but we know max payload and iran already has 700kg warheads so I suppose it makes sense to consider they will use currently available warheads. Iran had MIRV technology for quite some time but in practice I think it makes sense to deliver conventional warheads only with khoramshahr,at least at max range...Other Iranian missilecan deliver much less weight at max range...

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## Websorber

*Iran to Continue Testing Homegrown Missiles*

*https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/...o-continue-testing-homegrown-missiles-general*

*



*

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## PeeD

sanel1412 said:


> MIRV not MRV...and thing is that this missile payload is 1800kg...so in practice it can carry 3 independent 700kg warheads and hit 3 different targets...of coursethere is no informaton how many wargeads it can carry and wight of every warhead...but we know max payload and iran already has 700kg warheads so I suppose it makes sense to consider they will use currently available warheads. Iran had MIRV technology for quite some time but in practice I think it makes sense to deliver conventional warheads only with khoramshahr,at least at max range...Other Iranian missilecan deliver much less weight at max range...



In practice it can be a MIRV if Qiam-2 or Emad like warheads are used. However in classical sense it is a MRV as of now, because Iran has not demonstrated a bus system.

If there is no need for a quite expensive bus system it won't be fielded because the conventional nature of Irans MRBMs required a cost effective system.
The Khorramshar may not have a bus system but the unusual maneuver done in the first public test shows that it does (bus-system like) re-orienting related maneuvers once outside the atmosphere.

At this point I'm even quite certain that the whole missile flips 180° which technologically is similar to what a bus does in terms of system control.

A real MIRV with a bus would have the advantage that further apart targets can be attacked which could potentially make exo-atmospheric interception more difficult. A MRV without bus could still do the job of a MIRV with guided warheads as demonstrated by the Qiam and Emad, starting to diverge to intended targets at re-entry to the atmosphere. This concept of course required the price of 3 independent guidance system for each RV.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> In practice it can be a MIRV if Qiam-2 or Emad like warheads are used. However in classical sense it is a MRV as of now, because Iran has not demonstrated a bus system.
> 
> If there is no need for a quite expensive bus system it won't be fielded because the conventional nature of Irans MRBMs required a cost effective system.
> The Khorramshar may not have a bus system but the unusual maneuver done in the first public test shows that it does (bus-system like) re-orienting related maneuvers once outside the atmosphere.
> 
> At this point I'm even quite certain that the whole missile flips 180° which technologically is similar to what a bus does in terms of system control.
> 
> A real MIRV with a bus would have the advantage that further apart targets can be attacked which could potentially make exo-atmospheric interception more difficult. A MRV without bus could still do the job of a MIRV with guided warheads as demonstrated by the Qiam and Emad, starting to diverge to intended targets at re-entry to the atmosphere. This concept of course required the price of 3 independent guidance system for each RV.



I think a PVB version of the khoramshahr will likely be for delivery (1or2 warheads) against targets beyond 2000km like hitting Diego Garcia but for within 2000km deploying 3 Emad RV's maybe even with a bunch of decoys will likely work best against anti ballistic missile systems because the more projectiles you force them to track post boost and attempt to target and engage the harder it will be for any Air Defense system.

I think Iran will eventually test out both regardless...


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## TheImmortal

People forget Iran was quick to point out the 1800kg payload to keep international pressure off.

Because with a standard payload of 800-1000KG, the range of the missile would be approaching 3000KM much higher than the self-imposed 2000KM limit iran has set for BM range.

So far the US hasn’t called Iran out on this tactic.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

VEVAK said:


> I think a PVB version of the khoramshahr will likely be for delivery (1or2 warheads) against targets beyond 2000km like hitting Diego Garcia but for within 2000km deploying 3 Emad RV's maybe even with a bunch of decoys will likely work best against anti ballistic missile systems because the more projectiles you force them to track post boost and attempt to target and engage the harder it will be for any Air Defense system.
> 
> I think Iran will eventually test out both regardless...



Does that mean in essence khoramshahr is or could operate as an ICBM? Basically, a missile that could give the IRGC a flexibility that can go beyond 2000KM range provided it can go beyond that range?

p.s., everything people write here are pure speculations, and no one here has an inside info in the Iranian missile development. There are many Iran watchers who would use any information out there in order to exaggerate what they perceive to be an Iranian "threat". Therefore, people should emphasize that people are just speculating things here.

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## yavar




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## VEVAK

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> Does that mean in essence khoramshahr is or could operate as an ICBM? Basically, a missile that could give the IRGC a flexibility that can go beyond 2000KM range provided it can go beyond that range?
> 
> p.s., everything people write here are pure speculations, and no one here has an inside info in the Iranian missile development. There are many Iran watchers who would use any information out there in order to exaggerate what they perceive to be an Iranian "threat". Therefore, people should emphasize that people are just speculating things here.



ICBM's are BM with ranges beyond 5000km NOT 2000km
Khoramshar is an IRBM which in general cover ranges of ~2000km to 4500km depending on their 2nd stage or PBV & Warhead 
Diego Garcia is about 4000km from Iran so NO Khoramshar is NOT an ICBM at least not one with a viable size payload 
Khoramshahr has the capability to travel 2000km with a 1.8 tone warhead which means with a smaller warhead and a post boost vehicle they can travel much further.... So I don't know why that would be so hard to comprehend....

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## PeeD

Here something I wrote some time ago about the Khorramshahr and a new graphic to describe it:

Last year Iran sent a message to western military intelligence by showing the video of the Khorramshahr missile launch.


I got an idea already back then what that message was but it took until this year till my idea got more solid by the parade footage.


The idea is based on two points:


1: The Khorramshahr did a strange maneuver after its boost phase: One of its vernier engines suddenly started to fire, creating a roll moment.

Back then some said this was a malfunction.


2: The Khorramshahr has a very large guidance section. Based on the video from this years parade it is clearly visible that the cable duct ends too early for any kind of realistic guidance system. This means the Khorramshahr has for some reason extra space after the upper tank section.


So what is that space used for? A kind of large guidance system?

Clear no, this was sufficiently miniaturized already with the Qiam.

Penetration aids? Maybe but there is enough space in the RV.


So how can these both points be combined?

To make it short:

The Khorramshahr turned 180° after its main engine went off and the first stage was ejected/separated to the front of the RV.

For what reason?

Well I think that extra space for the guidance sections actually houses the 3 600kg warheads in a reverse orientation.

This is a concept the Soviets pioneered with their SLBMs to make them more compact and shorter.


So after RV separation the RV fly basically upside down and the booster stage in front of it (another maneuver may let it fall short, inside Iran or it fly in forward position of the RV and act as penetration aid).



So why this strange and seemingly complicated method?

1: Missile becomes overall more compact and space around the tip of the nose can be used elegantly to house subsystems (e.g guidance)

2: As the R-27, on which the Khorramshahr is based, has fortunately a separate turbopump for it's two venier engines, they can act as PBV control engines after main engine shut down.

3: Using venier engines for that re-orientation maneuver means that the PBV does not need any extra high power control engines. Cost and complexity saved. A cold gas system could be sufficient for warhead/RV ejection trajectory changes. A spring based release system is even simpler.

4. With the large first stage in front, it could be utilized as a kind of penetration aid after in breaks up at re-entry. Or even explode in front in a controlled fashion to create debris.


In short: You does not need any additional engines for the PBV/MRV or just a cheap cold gas system for a limited M*I*RV capability if desired/felt necessary.


This all is very complex and hard to master and terms of innovation would be a really a great achievement. It would give Iran a conventional MVR/MIRV MRBM with high penetration aid capability and the destructive power of three Sejil-2/Ghadr-F missiles.


Things that speaks against this idea: The nose tip of the Khorramshahr could be shorter and more blunt, I doubt the guidance system would need that extra space. However that extra space could house penetration aids. The shown and tested example could be the sub-munition variant instead of the MRV.


Alternative explanations for this all:

-The sudden maneuver by the venier engine was to change the trajectory in order to reduce the range and let the warhead come down inside Iran.

-The additional space houses a second stage of a complex PBV that has its own boost engines and orientation/venier engines.

-The additional space houses a massive mount of penetration aids or a electronic warfare system/IR decoys.



Ok. I think analysts would go for my version because those two points make best sense in that way.


If correct it becomes clear that the Khorramshahr is a effort by Iran to create a "Qiam-1 for 2000km range".

The Qiam-1 is the most cost effective SRBM Iran has. It is sufficiently accurate and high speed, especially in its terminally guided variant to be used against strongly protected and defended targets 700-800km around Iran.

To put it simply again: Iran has thousands of them (or will have sooner or later) and can use it against thousand high priority targets around Iran.


However, enemy air- and missile power is a threat beyond those 700km.

60% would come from those 700km regions, 30% from regions beyond that and within 2000km and 10% from strategic ranges beyond 2000km.


Ghadr series and Sejil series had previously a role to suppress enemy assets to around 2000km, first and foremost with their sub munition warheads. With the Emad and the higher accuracy it offered, individual and hardened targets could be attacked directly at those ranges.

However Ghadr and Sejil were far from economic for strikes against enemy assets at those ranges. They are most economic as retaliation weapons against enemy area targets because each strike sends a message.


But for the task of knocking out individual/hardened targets, only the Emad was available. Compared to terminally guided Qiam variant, the Emad is still significantly more expensive.


With the Khorrmashahr this situation changes. It gives Iran a weapon that is more cost effective than the Qiam, delivers the same punch at ranges up to 2000km.

This offers a significant change in capabilities.

Area targets can be attacked by a terminally unguided large, single submunition warhead of 1800kg.

Individual or hardened targets by 3 wearheads similar to the recently shown terminally guided Qiam variant. The guidance system of each of the three MaRVs could be rather crude after a accurate trajectory injection by the main guidance system of the Khorramshahr. Even a wind-correction level guidance system for the MaRVs could be sufficient to offer the ~50m CEP necessary


What is cost effective? Calculate the cost of a 2000km strike radius low level interdictor bomber or a stealth fighter bomber, its qualification, operation, support systems cost plus its weapon cost.

If you have that number estimate the cost of a Khorramshahr and see how many you can get for that money.

Then estimate how many targets needs to be taken out and determine if you can get sufficient numbers

________
After Baradar Skyhawk (Skyshadow?) on instagram provided good analysis I wanted to offer this analysis as thanks in return.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Here something I wrote some time ago about the Khorramshahr and a new graphic to describe it:
> 
> Last year Iran sent a message to western military intelligence by showing the video of the Khorramshahr missile launch.
> 
> 
> I got an idea already back then what that message was but it took until this year till my idea got more solid by the parade footage.
> 
> 
> The idea is based on two points:
> 
> 
> 1: The Khorramshahr did a strange maneuver after its boost phase: One of its vernier engines suddenly started to fire, creating a roll moment.
> 
> Back then some said this was a malfunction.
> 
> 
> 2: The Khorramshahr has a very large guidance section. Based on the video from this years parade it is clearly visible that the cable duct ends too early for any kind of realistic guidance system. This means the Khorramshahr has for some reason extra space after the upper tank section.
> 
> 
> So what is that space used for? A kind of large guidance system?
> 
> Clear no, this was sufficiently miniaturized already with the Qiam.
> 
> Penetration aids? Maybe but there is enough space in the RV.
> 
> 
> So how can these both points be combined?
> 
> To make it short:
> 
> The Khorramshahr turned 180° after its main engine went off and the first stage was ejected/separated to the front of the RV.
> 
> For what reason?
> 
> Well I think that extra space for the guidance sections actually houses the 3 600kg warheads in a reverse orientation.
> 
> This is a concept the Soviets pioneered with their SLBMs to make them more compact and shorter.
> 
> 
> So after RV separation the RV fly basically upside down and the booster stage in front of it (another maneuver may let it fall short, inside Iran or it fly in forward position of the RV and act as penetration aid).
> 
> 
> 
> So why this strange and seemingly complicated method?
> 
> 1: Missile becomes overall more compact and space around the tip of the nose can be used elegantly to house subsystems (e.g guidance)
> 
> 2: As the R-27, on which the Khorramshahr is based, has fortunately a separate turbopump for it's two venier engines, they can act as PBV control engines after main engine shut down.
> 
> 3: Using venier engines for that re-orientation maneuver means that the PBV does not need any extra high power control engines. Cost and complexity saved. A cold gas system could be sufficient for warhead/RV ejection trajectory changes. A spring based release system is even simpler.
> 
> 4. With the large first stage in front, it could be utilized as a kind of penetration aid after in breaks up at re-entry. Or even explode in front in a controlled fashion to create debris.
> 
> 
> In short: You does not need any additional engines for the PBV/MRV or just a cheap cold gas system for a limited M*I*RV capability if desired/felt necessary.
> 
> 
> This all is very complex and hard to master and terms of innovation would be a really a great achievement. It would give Iran a conventional MVR/MIRV MRBM with high penetration aid capability and the destructive power of three Sejil-2/Ghadr-F missiles.
> 
> 
> Things that speaks against this idea: The nose tip of the Khorramshahr could be shorter and more blunt, I doubt the guidance system would need that extra space. However that extra space could house penetration aids. The shown and tested example could be the sub-munition variant instead of the MRV.
> 
> 
> Alternative explanations for this all:
> 
> -The sudden maneuver by the venier engine was to change the trajectory in order to reduce the range and let the warhead come down inside Iran.
> 
> -The additional space houses a second stage of a complex PBV that has its own boost engines and orientation/venier engines.
> 
> -The additional space houses a massive mount of penetration aids or a electronic warfare system/IR decoys.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. I think analysts would go for my version because those two points make best sense in that way.
> 
> 
> If correct it becomes clear that the Khorramshahr is a effort by Iran to create a "Qiam-1 for 2000km range".
> 
> The Qiam-1 is the most cost effective SRBM Iran has. It is sufficiently accurate and high speed, especially in its terminally guided variant to be used against strongly protected and defended targets 700-800km around Iran.
> 
> To put it simply again: Iran has thousands of them (or will have sooner or later) and can use it against thousand high priority targets around Iran.
> 
> 
> However, enemy air- and missile power is a threat beyond those 700km.
> 
> 60% would come from those 700km regions, 30% from regions beyond that and within 2000km and 10% from strategic ranges beyond 2000km.
> 
> 
> Ghadr series and Sejil series had previously a role to suppress enemy assets to around 2000km, first and foremost with their sub munition warheads. With the Emad and the higher accuracy it offered, individual and hardened targets could be attacked directly at those ranges.
> 
> However Ghadr and Sejil were far from economic for strikes against enemy assets at those ranges. They are most economic as retaliation weapons against enemy area targets because each strike sends a message.
> 
> 
> But for the task of knocking out individual/hardened targets, only the Emad was available. Compared to terminally guided Qiam variant, the Emad is still significantly more expensive.
> 
> 
> With the Khorrmashahr this situation changes. It gives Iran a weapon that is more cost effective than the Qiam, delivers the same punch at ranges up to 2000km.
> 
> This offers a significant change in capabilities.
> 
> Area targets can be attacked by a terminally unguided large, single submunition warhead of 1800kg.
> 
> Individual or hardened targets by 3 wearheads similar to the recently shown terminally guided Qiam variant. The guidance system of each of the three MaRVs could be rather crude after a accurate trajectory injection by the main guidance system of the Khorramshahr. Even a wind-correction level guidance system for the MaRVs could be sufficient to offer the ~50m CEP necessary
> 
> 
> What is cost effective? Calculate the cost of a 2000km strike radius low level interdictor bomber or a stealth fighter bomber, its qualification, operation, support systems cost plus its weapon cost.
> 
> If you have that number estimate the cost of a Khorramshahr and see how many you can get for that money.
> 
> Then estimate how many targets needs to be taken out and determine if you can get sufficient numbers
> 
> 
> 
> ________
> After Baradar Skyhawk (Skyshadow?) on instagram provided good analysis I wanted to offer this analysis as thanks in return.









Go 1 Min into the video and pay attention to the clouds the veneers kicked in simply to keep the nose up to get a high trajectory injection and they worked perfectly with no malfunction at all and attempting such a complex maneuver with an entire dead weight of an empty missile would no doubt increase the chances of malfunctions plus it would be much easier to do a flip post separation if absolutely necessary...

Aside from that I agree with most of what you said and was a good read thank you! Except with the Qiam's I wouldn't say firing 4 Qiam's would be as economical as firing 1 khoramshahr equipped with 4 400-450kg RV for ranges of even 800km because you simply can't just include the cost of the missile we have to include all the cost of fueling, fuel storage, manpower, launch platform, maintenance..... over time and in terms of overall costs a single Khoramshar would cost less overtime than 4 Qiam's even if the Missile's production cost is $1Million USD as appose to $200k for each Qiam

I think with a proper MIRV with accuracy of 50 meters Iran can slowly replace the production of it's Qadr variants including Emad by simply producing 1 Khormashar a week (52 per year) and should follow suite with it's Solid Fuel Sejils


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## scythian500

A piece of paper about silo launched missiles (land based and sea based) from Malek Ashtar uni:

http://www.mut.ac.ir/uploads/other/ketaab2/EB-69.pdf


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> I think with a proper MIRV with accuracy of 50 meters Iran can slowly replace the production of it's Qadr variants including Emad by simply producing 1 Khormashar a week (52 per year) and should follow suite with it's Solid Fuel Sejils



I don’t agree. That would mean it would take Iran 10 years to reach a storage of 500+ missiles.

Considering depending on the propellant the storage life of a solid missile is 5 to 25 years and liquid propellant is even shorter that would mean slowly the storage of older ceased missiles dwould reach their shelf life. Since you ceased production of those missiles, they would simply be discarded and no new missiles would take their place (just more Khormashahr).

Assuming that 25-30% of Khormashahr missiles get destroyed during a conflict (bombing of known storage locations) and another 10% malfunction or completely miss their target....that leaves Iran with around 250 missiles for offensive capability at the end of that 10 year window.

That’s hardly enough to wage a long war of attrition especially considering Iran has no Air Force to attack targets outside of its borders and will entirely rely on BMs.

Iran has already consolidated its BM inventory. There is value in having different types. Firing 2 Emads alongside a Khormashahr missile will increase survivability if Iran decides to fire salvos.

If Iran is working on a long range drone or weapon that can cause an EMP burst around known area such as radar/missile defense locations prior to an attack that will make a potential missile attack have a high rate of success.


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## Websorber

*Iran’s missile test: a provocation, not a violation*

https://www.iiss.org/blogs/survival-blog/2018/12/iran-missile-test


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## Sineva

TheImmortal said:


> I don’t agree. That would mean it would take Iran 10 years to reach a storage of 500+ missiles.
> 
> Considering depending on the propellant the storage life of a solid missile is 5 to 25 years and liquid propellant is even shorter that would mean slowly the storage of older ceased missiles dwould reach their shelf life. Since you ceased production of those missiles, they would simply be discarded and no new missiles would take their place (just more Khormashahr).
> .


The storage life of liquid fueled missiles only becomes an issue if those missiles are stored in a fully fueled state,otherwise their lifespan can be nearly indefinite in an unfueled state.Even then there are russian liquid fueled icbms that have remained in a fully fueled state for literally years on end without any problems.


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## skyshadow

https://thehill.com/policy/internat...no-limitations-to-expanding-range-of-missiles

*Iranian general sees no 'limitations' to expanding range of missiles: report*


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> I don’t agree. That would mean it would take Iran 10 years to reach a storage of 500+ missiles.
> 
> Considering depending on the propellant the storage life of a solid missile is 5 to 25 years and liquid propellant is even shorter that would mean slowly the storage of older ceased missiles dwould reach their shelf life. Since you ceased production of those missiles, they would simply be discarded and no new missiles would take their place (just more Khormashahr).
> 
> Assuming that 25-30% of Khormashahr missiles get destroyed during a conflict (bombing of known storage locations) and another 10% malfunction or completely miss their target....that leaves Iran with around 250 missiles for offensive capability at the end of that 10 year window.
> 
> That’s hardly enough to wage a long war of attrition especially considering Iran has no Air Force to attack targets outside of its borders and will entirely rely on BMs.
> 
> Iran has already consolidated its BM inventory. There is value in having different types. Firing 2 Emads alongside a Khormashahr missile will increase survivability if Iran decides to fire salvos.
> 
> If Iran is working on a long range drone or weapon that can cause an EMP burst around known area such as radar/missile defense locations prior to an attack that will make a potential missile attack have a high rate of success.



It's not about the number of missiles you have rather more about the number of payloads you can deliver and targets you can take out.

If all 250 out of 500 missiles hit their targets your looking at taking at ~700 targets with 1000LB payloads (MIRV) and ~20 or so with 3000lp payloads and lets not forget these are only for targets beyond 800km of Iranian soil(+1000km from launch site) and that's with a 50% success rate and fact is the success rate may be that low or even as low as 30% at the start but it's not likely that they'll stay that low and Ballistic Missiles aren't and can't be the only weapon in Iran's arsenal and these are specifically for replacement of Liquid fuel MRBM and you still have your solid fuel (A replacement for the Sajil-2 capable of delivering 3 or more MIRV should also be produced at a rate of 1 per week) and all targets aren't going to be beyond 800km of Iranian soil so yea it's more than enough 

On top of that unlike solid fuel missiles, liquid fuel missiles don't store fuel inside and with modern nano coating and proper storing methods your unfueled booster and engines could last 30 years or more and yes no doubt you'll need to produce more fuel and replace the fuel in storage tanks over and over again so what? Because if your already producing the fuel for them then that shouldn't be a problem and you would have to do that regardless. And there is no real way to predict what achievements IRGC will have in the next 20 years.


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> It's not about the number of missiles you have rather more about the number of payloads you can deliver and targets you can take out.
> 
> If all 250 out of 500 missiles hit their targets your looking at taking at ~700 targets with 1000LB payloads (MIRV) and ~20 or so with 3000lp payloads and lets not forget these are only for targets beyond 800km of Iranian soil(+1000km from launch site) and that's with a 50% success rate and fact is the success rate may be that low or even as low as 30% at the start but it's not likely that they'll stay that low and Ballistic Missiles aren't and can't be the only weapon in Iran's arsenal and these are specifically for replacement of Liquid fuel MRBM and you still have your solid fuel (A replacement for the Sajil-2 capable of delivering 3 or more MIRV should also be produced at a rate of 1 per week) and all targets aren't going to be beyond 800km of Iranian soil so yea it's more than enough
> 
> On top of that unlike solid fuel missiles, liquid fuel missiles don't store fuel inside and with modern nano coating and proper storing methods your unfueled booster and engines could last 30 years or more and yes no doubt you'll need to produce more fuel and replace the fuel in storage tanks over and over again so what? Because if your already producing the fuel for them then that shouldn't be a problem and you would have to do that regardless. And there is no real way to predict what achievements IRGC will have in the next 20 years.



Go look at how much LBS/KGS of bombs the Syrian airforce dropped during the civil war. Or for that matter the RAF during end of the war. Or for that matter the US airforce. Look at Iraq war or 60 day Lebanon war.

I am shocked you think 3000 x 250 or 500 is enough armament to fight a war. The US will easily drop that much in the first DAYS of the Iran war on Iranian military targets.

The reliance on BMs to deliver Iran’s outside the border response is not realistic especially considering the amount of targets Iran will have to hit (Israel, SA, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Afghanistan, Etc.)

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Go look at how much LBS/KGS of bombs the Syrian airforce dropped during the civil war. Or for that matter the RAF during end of the war. Or for that matter the US airforce. Look at Iraq war or 60 day Lebanon war.
> 
> I am shocked you think 3000 x 250 or 500 is enough armament to fight a war. The US will easily drop that much in the first DAYS of the Iran war on Iranian military targets.
> 
> The reliance on BMs to deliver Iran’s outside the border response is not realistic especially considering the amount of targets Iran will have to hit (Israel, SA, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Afghanistan, Etc.)



Again your looking at Liquid fueled BM as if they are the ONLY weapons in Iran's arsenal and again your looking at targets beyond 800km of Iranian soil as if they are the only targets worth hitting. Fact is in a war against any regional power or even against the U.S. Iran would mainly be conducting attacks against targets that are within 700-800km of Iranian soil! Yes there are a handful of large bases in Saudi Arabia that are between 800km-1600km away and maybe another handful of U.S. operated bases outside Saudi Arabia that pose a serious threat to Iran beyond 800km as for Israel how many targets inside Iran do you think the Israeli Airforce can hit? I can promise you it won't be nowhere near 800 targets taken out with 1000lb warheads before their entire Airforce is taken out! Hell according to the Israeli Airforce it's self just taking on Iran's Nuclear facilities alone would cost them 50% of their fleet. 

So don't confuse targets beyond 800km with targets within! In Syria the Syrian Airforce wasn't flying sorties against targets beyond 800km from their base! And in Lebanon again the same thing with the Israeli Airforce. And you really can't compare the U.S., China or Russia with Iran because we don't even spend 1/5 of what the Russian's spend on weapons production let alone the U.S. 

From Iran's perspective being able to takeout nearly 700 targets beyond 800km of Iranian soil using Liquid Fueled Ballistic Missiles alone will be sufficient because Solid Fuel BM can take on another 700 targets hopefully + Cruise Missiles + future UCAV's + and to a smaller extent your Airforce + Special Forces so all of them put together should be sufficient enough for targets beyond ~800km of Iranian soil.

Now within 800km that's where Iran needs a massive stock to makeup for our lack of Airpower and you'll need a vast sock of tactical missiles that can easily be transported, programed and launched easily and quickly which makes the Fatteh class and Zolfaghar class a great platform to mass produce and continue upgrading and that's the type of missiles Iran would need to mass produce at much higher rates


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## Stryker1982

VEVAK said:


> Hell according to the Israeli Airforce it's self just taking on Iran's Nuclear facilities alone would cost them 50% of their fleet



I doubt the israelis said this


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## VEVAK

Stryker1982 said:


> I doubt the israelis said this



No man I was exaggerating! What they said was more alone the line of "To properly strike just a handful of Iranian Nuclear sites they would need to use 50% of their fleet with expected losses of 25-30%"

So I exaggerated that into taking out Iran's nuclear facilities would cost them 50% of their Air Force.

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## AmirPatriot

TheImmortal said:


> Go look at how much LBS/KGS of bombs the Syrian airforce dropped during the civil war. Or for that matter the RAF during end of the war. Or for that matter the US airforce. Look at Iraq war or 60 day Lebanon war.
> 
> I am shocked you think 3000 x 250 or 500 is enough armament to fight a war. The US will easily drop that much in the first DAYS of the Iran war on Iranian military targets.
> 
> The reliance on BMs to deliver Iran’s outside the border response is not realistic especially considering the amount of targets Iran will have to hit (Israel, SA, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Afghanistan, Etc.)



This. So much this. BMs alone are not enough, capability or cost-wise.

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## skyshadow

*Iran admits 'significant' medium-range ballistic missile test*

https://www.thenational.ae/world/me...-medium-range-ballistic-missile-test-1.801427

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> *Iran admits 'significant' medium-range ballistic missile test*
> 
> https://www.thenational.ae/world/me...-medium-range-ballistic-missile-test-1.801427



The article is filled with lies! 
1st The test was NOT a breach of any UN resolution. 2ndly, Iran never denied the testing of the missile. Finally, Iran has made NO confirmation on conducting any kind of test that's in any way a violation of any UN resolutions.

While the article makes it sound like Iran secretly tested a Missile that was in violation of UN resolutions, got caught due to the might USA and is now confirming the test which is utter nonsense. And this fictional news is their version of a free media where their so called free media outlets are more concerned about spreading CIA sponsored propaganda rather than reporting factual unbiased news. 

And this is the type of Free Media and Freedom of speech these people hope to bring to Iran as they have done so in the UAE (where that article is from)!

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018...deh-missile-test-US-Secretary-of-State-Pompeo

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/12/11/582643/missile-Iran-Zarif-Resolution-2231

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> The article is filled with lies!
> 1st The test was NOT a breach of any UN resolution. 2ndly, Iran never denied the testing of the missile. Finally, Iran has made NO confirmation on conducting any kind of test that's in any way a violation of any UN resolutions.
> 
> While the article makes it sound like Iran secretly tested a Missile that was in violation of UN resolutions, got caught due to the might USA and is now confirming the test which is utter nonsense. And this fictional news is their version of a free media where their so called free media outlets are more concerned about spreading CIA sponsored propaganda rather than reporting factual unbiased news.
> 
> And this is the type of Free Media and Freedom of speech these people hope to bring to Iran as they have done so in the UAE (where that article is from)!
> 
> https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018...deh-missile-test-US-Secretary-of-State-Pompeo
> 
> https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/12/11/582643/missile-Iran-Zarif-Resolution-2231


I totally agree with you. When I read the article, I was very angry with the lies in this article, but I post it because Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh confirmed that they had tested a missile.

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018...deh-missile-test-US-Secretary-of-State-Pompeo

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/iran-confirms-recent-missile-test-amid-western-criticism-1961024

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-missile-test-in-defiance-of-us-idUSKBN1OA0U7


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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> I totally agree with you. When I read the article, I was very angry with the lies in this article, but I post it because Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh confirmed that they had tested a missile.
> 
> https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018...deh-missile-test-US-Secretary-of-State-Pompeo
> 
> https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/iran-confirms-recent-missile-test-amid-western-criticism-1961024
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-missile-test-in-defiance-of-us-idUSKBN1OA0U7



Yea man I know your views on the subject and I know for a fact that you don't have any bad intentions.... Maybe it's just me but I just simply don't wanna increase the click counts of websites like that.... It's all good!

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> Yea man I know your views on the subject and I know for a fact that you don't have any bad intentions.... Maybe it's just me but I just simply don't wanna increase the click counts of websites like that.... It's all good!


thanks man. i'm grateful. i will try to find and publish sites with some good view on Iran or better content with out lies at least.

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## Websorber

*Six factors shaping Iran’s missile decision-making calculus*

*https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/or...curity-council-2231-wmd-free-zone-pompeo.html*
*




*


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## Websorber

*IRGC vows to continue missile tests*
*"research more actively than ever"

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/12/21/583556/IRGC-Fadavi-Iran-missile-tests












*

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## Raghfarm007

Draco.IMF said:


> Are iranian missiles also made this way or simpler?



This factory that Iran set up in Armenia uses very similar technology:

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## skyshadow

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...d-iran-could-acquire-hypersonic-weapons-40057


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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...d-iran-could-acquire-hypersonic-weapons-40057


You can dream on USA or China or Russia ever give us hypersonic missile technology, they won't even give us supersonic cruise missile techlogy.

The only way we can get ur hand on this technology is that we ourselves develope it.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

anyone know range of fateh mobin? i think they didn't announce the range, but fateh 110 is 300km and fateh 313 is 500km, so is fateh mobin likely to be 300 or 500km range?


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## AmirPatriot

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> anyone know range of fateh mobin? i think they didn't announce the range, but fateh 110 is 300km and fateh 313 is 500km, so is fateh mobin likely to be 300 or 500km range?



Fateh Mobin is basically a warhead upgrade, it can be fitted to any of the Fateh series from Fateh-110 up to the Zolfaqar.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

AmirPatriot said:


> Fateh Mobin is basically a warhead upgrade, it can be fitted to any of the Fateh series from Fateh-110 up to the Zolfaqar.


sepas.

although didn't they market fateh mobin as specifically anti-ship?

also, why haven't we seen much of the fateh 313? does it have same CEP as latest fateh 110?

to me it seems that would be a huge development to have a missile as accurate as the mobin with the range of the 313 (500km vs 300km for the fateh 110), so surely the next step would be to mass produce the fateh mobin warhead on the fateh 313...? 

(they talk about zolfaqar being adapted for anti-ship, but i don't think zolfaqar has a good record for anti-land and latest fateh generations show more promise in my opinion.)

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## Sineva

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> sepas.
> 
> although didn't they market fateh mobin as specifically anti-ship?
> 
> also, why haven't we seen much of the fateh 313? does it have same CEP as latest fateh 110?
> 
> to me it seems that would be a huge development to have a missile as accurate as the mobin with the range of the 313 (500km vs 300km for the fateh 110), so surely the next step would be to mass produce the fateh mobin warhead on the fateh 313...?
> 
> (they talk about zolfaqar being adapted for anti-ship, but i don't think zolfaqar has a good record for anti-land and latest fateh generations show more promise in my opinion.)


It looks like they decided to go for the zolfiqar over the 313,as it has better range [700km] with its separating warhead.Another advantage is that the separate warhead is a much smaller radar target and far more maneuverable so poses a much bigger challenge for any sam/abm system to engage as it is not having to lug the spent rocket motor around with it as the 110 does.It also seems likely that some of the technology in the 313 was used in the zolfiqar such as the composite reinforced motor cases.





Heres a pic of the hormuz 2 with its active radar seeker.I would imagine that this could be retrofitted to the zolfiqar.

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## Persian Gulf 1906

Sineva said:


> It looks like they decided to go for the zolfiqar over the 313,as it has better range [700km] with its separating warhead.Another advantage is that the separate warhead is a much smaller radar target and far more maneuverable so poses a much bigger challenge for any sam/abm system to engage as it is not having to lug the spent rocket motor around with it as the 110 does.It also seems likely that some of the technology in the 313 was used in the zolfiqar such as the composite reinforced motor cases.
> 
> Heres a pic of the hormuz 2 with its active radar seeker.I would imagine that this could be retrofitted to the zolfiqar.


but isn't it strange they unveiled the fateh 313 more recent than zolfaqar but now they abandon the 313 for the zolfaqar? and how does explain the fateh mobin, can they fit that 'warhead'/targeting tech on the zolfaqar at least?

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow

*Iran is saying its emad missile has a range of 2500 km





*

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## skyshadow

*new missiles are coming soon.
*

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## PeeD

So we have a new Soumar variant, the Hoveyzieh.

Different engines and probably different dimensions.

My 2 cents?

Serial produced and matured Toloue family engines were selected to create a cost effective weapon (engine nacelle is longer).

Engine should be fixed and not internally carried before launch as ground launcher allows a simple large container.

The space likely has been used, since the CoG is manipulated anyway due to the different engine, so a extra tank might have taken the space. In turn the warhead may have been enlarged too.

So what would be the range penalty of such a Soumar/Kh-55? The switch from turbofan to turbojet would still result in a range of 1250km if we assume a 50% less efficient propulsion. Even more conservative estimation would still mean 600-800km.

So the remaining question is if they simply were not able to copy the Soviet mini turbofan, whether the production numbers of it are too low or whether the differences in production would result in so much higher engine cost that a Toloue based conventional weapon is simply the most efficient approach.

Now we have the Meshkat, the Soumar and the new Hoveyzieh... all probably Kh-55 based but different in some way.

Centainly is that if they manage to make such a Hoveyzieh at 1,5 times the cost of a Noor, it becomes a good new capability.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> So we have a new Soumar variant, the Hoveyzieh.
> 
> Different engines and probably different dimensions.
> 
> My 2 cents?
> 
> Serial produced and matured Toloue family engines were selected to create a cost effective weapon (engine nacelle is longer).
> 
> Engine should be fixed and not internally carried before launch as ground launcher allows a simple large container.
> 
> The space likely has been used, since the CoG is manipulated anyway due to the different engine, so a extra tank might have taken the space. In turn the warhead may have been enlarged too.
> 
> So what would be the range penalty of such a Soumar/Kh-55? The switch from turbofan to turbojet would still result in a range of 1250km if we assume a 50% less efficient propulsion. Even more conservative estimation would still mean 600-800km.
> 
> So the remaining question is if they simply were not able to copy the Soviet mini turbofan, whether the production numbers of it are too low or whether the differences in production would result in so much higher engine cost that a Toloue based conventional weapon is simply the most efficient approach.
> 
> Now we have the Meshkat, the Soumar and the new Hoveyzieh... all probably Kh-55 based but different in some way.
> 
> Centainly is that if they manage to make such a Hoveyzieh at 1,5 times the cost of a Noor, it becomes a good new capability.



https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...ید-وزارت-دفاع-به-زودی-وارد-چرخه-تولید-می-شوند






Iran's Defense minister claiming that Iran tested a new 2000km BM that was able to hit the middle of a 30meter X 30 meters target which is basically the dimensions of a standard sized fighter bunker 

Which means with the right intel 1000 of them could effectively neutralize any regional Air Force! 

The best defense is always a good offense and the only way to prevent a war is to properly invest in and showcase Iran's offensive capabilities to show what could happen if Iran is ever attacked
And if what he said is true Iran needs to make a massive investment towards mass production of these Missile, their fuel, warhead,... produced at rates as high as 2-4 per week with sufficient number of launch platform or silos to go with them 
with the Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, zolfaghar, Soumar or Howazieh each produced at rates as high as 1 per day 

Iran hasn't purchased fighters for over 40 years now and within the next decade or two we will reach a point where having manned fighters will be more a disadvantage over Quantum com remotely piloted supersonic or hypersonic fighters. So if Iranian scientist are projecting that Quantum coms will definitely be a possibility within the next decade or so then the bulk of Iran's defense spending needs to go towards mass producing large number of missiles and R&D towards quantum coms and building large high speed, highly maneuverable, high altitude UCAV's with sufficient amount of payload because that's the type of tech Iran needs to plan for over a decade or two ahead of time

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> So we have a new Soumar variant, the Hoveyzieh.
> 
> Different engines and probably different dimensions.
> 
> My 2 cents?
> 
> Serial produced and matured Toloue family engines were selected to create a cost effective weapon (engine nacelle is longer).
> 
> Engine should be fixed and not internally carried before launch as ground launcher allows a simple large container.
> 
> The space likely has been used, since the CoG is manipulated anyway due to the different engine, so a extra tank might have taken the space. In turn the warhead may have been enlarged too.
> 
> So what would be the range penalty of such a Soumar/Kh-55? The switch from turbofan to turbojet would still result in a range of 1250km if we assume a 50% less efficient propulsion. Even more conservative estimation would still mean 600-800km.
> 
> So the remaining question is if they simply were not able to copy the Soviet mini turbofan, whether the production numbers of it are too low or whether the differences in production would result in so much higher engine cost that a Toloue based conventional weapon is simply the most efficient approach.
> 
> Now we have the Meshkat, the Soumar and the new Hoveyzieh... all probably Kh-55 based but different in some way.
> 
> Centainly is that if they manage to make such a Hoveyzieh at 1,5 times the cost of a Noor, it becomes a good new capability.



can it be the air lunched type with half the range lets say 1500 km?


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## PeeD

@VEVAK 

I think you hint to a kind of communication via quantum entanglement. Unfortunately this is impossible with known physics. Quantum entanglement can only ensure that the data is legit/original and not falsified. The radio energy for transmission can still be jammed or taken out.
So the very high level robust and secure communication needed for such UAVs is not possible today.




skyshadow said:


> can it be the air lunched type with half the range lets say 1500 km?



Possible yes. But for a air launched weapon you would go for a more compact engine, as the original Soumar. It is ground launch which does not require a pop-out engine nacelle or a very compact engine.
The Hoveyzieh has no booster mounted but either the Soumar was not mastered and they needed to switch down to a turbojet variant or the Hoveyzieh is a cost effective conventional interpretation of the expensive, nuclear, air launched Kh-55/Soumar.
It would be no shame if the Kh-55 turbofan was not mastered or deemed sufficiently cost effective. That's because the Kh-55 was so advanced in its non-propulsion aspects, that its huge 2500km range would still result in a considerable range performance in a Toloue powered turbojet variant.
The 1500km range claim by Hajizadeh could indeed be for a turbojet powered Kh-55.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> I think you hint to a kind of communication via quantum entanglement. Unfortunately this is impossible with known physics. Quantum entanglement can only ensure that the data is legit/original and not falsified. The radio energy for transmission can still be jammed or taken out.
> So the very high level robust and secure communication needed for such UAVs is not possible today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Possible yes. But for a air launched weapon you would go for a more compact engine, as the original Soumar. It is ground launch which does not require a pop-out engine nacelle or a very compact engine.
> The Hoveyzieh has no booster mounted but either the Soumar was not mastered and they needed to switch down to a turbojet variant or the Hoveyzieh is a cost effective conventional interpretation of the expensive, nuclear, air launched Kh-55/Soumar.
> It would be no shame if the Kh-55 turbofan was not mastered or deemed sufficiently cost effective. That's because the Kh-55 was so advanced in its non-propulsion aspects, that its huge 2500km range would still result in a considerable range performance in a Toloue powered turbojet variant.
> The 1500km range claim by Hajizadeh could indeed be for a turbojet powered Kh-55.



i would say the cost effective scenario is the main reason that they changed the engine, for example, by lunching Hoveyzieh at much less distance then soumar CM was built to hit. like military targets in Israel. you would not lunch an 2500 km missile for targets that are 1200 km away it would not be cost effective.


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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> i would say the cost effective scenario is the main reason that they changed the engine, for example, by lunching Hoveyzieh at much less distance then soumar CM was built to hit. like military targets in Israel. you would not lunch an 2500 km missile for targets that are 1200 km away it would not be cost effective.



Yes. But whats different with CM is that you can use extra range to attack from very different directions.
This is a capability BM's lack. Only hypersonic glide vehicles could change that in future.
However due to their low speed, CMs have a hard time to attack a highly protected target.

1500km in a cost effective, heavy warhead Kh-55 variant would be sufficient for Irans threat scenario. The small footprint of mobile CM launchers allow them to operate dispersed, close to the borders.

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## mohsen

VEVAK said:


> https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...ید-وزارت-دفاع-به-زودی-وارد-چرخه-تولید-می-شوند
> 
> View attachment 535728
> 
> 
> Iran's Defense minister claiming that Iran tested a new 2000km BM that was able to hit the middle of a 30meter X 30 meters target which is basically the dimensions of a standard sized fighter bunker
> 
> Which means with the right intel 1000 of them could effectively neutralize any regional Air Force!
> 
> The best defense is always a good offense and the only way to prevent a war is to properly invest in and showcase Iran's offensive capabilities to show what could happen if Iran is ever attacked
> And if what he said is true Iran needs to make a massive investment towards mass production of these Missile, their fuel, warhead,... produced at rates as high as 2-4 per week with sufficient number of launch platform or silos to go with them
> with the Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313, zolfaghar, Soumar or Howazieh each produced at rates as high as 1 per day
> 
> Iran hasn't purchased fighters for over 40 years now and within the next decade or two we will reach a point where having manned fighters will be more a disadvantage over Quantum com remotely piloted supersonic or hypersonic fighters. So if Iranian scientist are projecting that Quantum coms will definitely be a possibility within the next decade or so then the bulk of Iran's defense spending needs to go towards mass producing large number of missiles and R&D towards quantum coms and building large high speed, highly maneuverable, high altitude UCAV's with sufficient amount of payload because that's the type of tech Iran needs to plan for over a decade or two ahead of time


Zero error for Khorramshahr MIRV ballistic missile.
1000/3


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Iran hasn't purchased fighters for over 40 years now and within the next decade or two we will reach a point where having manned fighters will be more a disadvantage over Quantum com remotely piloted supersonic or hypersonic fighters. So if Iranian scientist are projecting that Quantum coms will definitely be a possibility within the next decade or so then the bulk of Iran's defense spending needs to go towards mass producing large number of missiles and R&D towards quantum coms and building large high speed, highly maneuverable, high altitude UCAV's with sufficient amount of payload because that's the type of tech Iran needs to plan for over a decade or two ahead of time



Sometimes I wonder what planet you are on. Because it is obviously one that doesn’t have the notion of logic.

Iran still cannot copy a 1970’s F-14 or Mig-29 for that matter (please don’t give me the titanium excuse again). But yet you expect it to create “large high speed highly maneuverable high altitude UCAVs” that is either “supersonic or Hypersonic”.

I mean seriously, it’s like telling an engineer who can’t build a 30 story building to skip that and go build the Burj Khalifa. You don’t just “magically” jump in technological capability.

If it wasn’t for RQ-170, Iran would still be a decade away from flying wing design UAV. If it wasn’t for predator and other ScanEagle, Iran wouldn’t have SAR or any true MALE UAV like it has today. (Probably still stuck with Mohajer and Ababil).

My point? 

Since Iran’s aerospace industry quite frankly sucks, without a massive influx of ToT or a proven design to reverse engineer, Iran is not going to be able to build your super duper 6th/7th gen fighter.



PeeD said:


> Now we have the Meshkat, the Soumar and the new Hoveyzieh... all probably Kh-55 based but different in some way.



The fact that neither Soumar or Meshkat was used in Syria (publically). Likely points to lack of confidence in the system. Iran is likely having trouble with the Kh-55. Having it over 2 decades in its possession and still not operational.

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## sha ah

Just revamps of older models, but its good that they keep the technology up to date, although I wonder what they're secretly working on since this is probably the tip of the iceberg. 



skyshadow said:


> *new missiles are coming soon.
> *
> 
> 
> View attachment 535623
> View attachment 535624
> View attachment 535625
> View attachment 535626
> View attachment 535628

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> The fact that neither Soumar or Meshkat was used in Syria (publically). Likely points to lack of confidence in the system. Iran is likely having trouble with the Kh-55. Having it over 2 decades in its possession and still not operational.



The Kh-55 engine is difficult to be economically serial produced. Iran is only since a few decades into the turbo machinery business and the Kh-55 engine top technology.

But the main reason should be that subsonic CMs can be easily shot down, often even almost intact. A non-stealth CM could be easily picked up by enemy AWACS and intercepted due to subsonic speed.

So this is vulnerabel technology that can be detected, intercepted and captured intact. It can't be used against a protected target and if you have no other choices, you need to use them in high numbers to create a saturation effect (like US Tomahawks in Syria).

You can use intelligence to circumvent defenses and attack from the least protected direction. But Iran should only use it's CM's if the risk of technology loss is worth it and the most potent enemy defenses are already taken out by other means, degraded to a medium threat level. Then the accuracy of CMs can be exploited.

However in light of BMs such as the Zolfaghar, questions will arrive: Which weapon system is more economic? It is well possible that the Soumar was not competitive in cost-effect calculation against Irans BMs. Hence the team was forced to develop a cost effective alternative that could compete, with the Hoveyzieh as result.

Russia was basically forced to go for CMs as their intermediate range treaty forbids them to have BMs.
I imagine that without that treaty, they would have used Oka-like BMs from their own territory to strike daesh targets in Syria.
However CMs would be a added capability for Iran that forces the enemy to invest and keep counter assets.


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## Sineva

PeeD said:


> So we have a new Soumar variant, the Hoveyzieh.
> 
> Different engines and probably different dimensions.
> 
> My 2 cents?
> 
> Serial produced and matured Toloue family engines were selected to create a cost effective weapon (engine nacelle is longer).
> 
> Engine should be fixed and not internally carried before launch as ground launcher allows a simple large container.
> 
> The space likely has been used, since the CoG is manipulated anyway due to the different engine, so a extra tank might have taken the space. In turn the warhead may have been enlarged too.
> 
> So what would be the range penalty of such a Soumar/Kh-55? The switch from turbofan to turbojet would still result in a range of 1250km if we assume a 50% less efficient propulsion. Even more conservative estimation would still mean 600-800km.
> 
> So the remaining question is if they simply were not able to copy the Soviet mini turbofan, whether the production numbers of it are too low or whether the differences in production would result in so much higher engine cost that a Toloue based conventional weapon is simply the most efficient approach.
> 
> Now we have the Meshkat, the Soumar and the new Hoveyzieh... all probably Kh-55 based but different in some way.
> 
> Centainly is that if they manage to make such a Hoveyzieh at 1,5 times the cost of a Noor, it becomes a good new capability.


The problem with this new engine being a toloue 4 is that those engines have a very prominent bulb at the front of the intake





Another possible option is that since the drop down engine configuration isnt being used anymore,that they`ve kept the turbofan but redesigned the nacelle,perhaps with a more efficient intake and exhaust as the original drop down configuration basically limited that to just the engine with a very basic cowling.


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## skyshadow

*new warhead




*






*اخگر؛ سلاح جدید پهپادهای ایرانی

موشک اخگر که در نمایشگاه دستاوردهای دفاعی نیروهای مسلح به نمایش درآمده، جدیدترین سلاح پهپادهای ایرانی است که از فاصله ۳۰ کیلومتری و از پهپاد قابلیت شلیک به سمت اهداف را دارد.

این موشک که مجهز به یک موتور میکروجت است، با سرعت ۶۰۰ کیلومتر بر ساعت از سرجنگی ۷ کیلوگرمی برخوردار است.


مشخصات موشک اخگر:

وزن موشک: ۲۷ کیلوگرم

وزن سرجنگی: ۷ کیلوگرم

برد موشک: ۳۰ کیلومتر

حداکثر سرعت: ۶۰۰ کیلومتر

طول موشک: ۱.۷ متر

قطر موشک: ۱۳ سانتی‌متر

نوع هدایت: تلویزیونی
*












*قاصد ۳؛ شلیک از صد کیلومتری

موشک کروز هوا پایه قاصد ۳ که تاکنون فقط در رژه‌ها و به صورت محمول به نمایش در می‌آمد، در این نمایشگاه تصاویری از نصب آن بر روی هواپیمای F-4 فانتوم و مشخصات فنی آن نیز به نمایش درآمده است.

این موشک با طول ۵.۱۵ متر و سرجنگی ۱۰۰۰ پوندی، از سامانه هدایتی مبتنی بر سر جستجوگر تصویری برخوردار است و قابلیت شلیک از فاصله ۱۰۰ کیلومتری را دارد.


مشخصات قاصد -۳:

طول: ۵.۱۵ متر

قطر بدنه: ۳۶ سانتی‌متر

مساحت بال: ۱۲۷ سانتی‌متر

وزن: ۸۵۰ کیلوگرم

سرجنگی: بمب ۱۰۰۰ پوندی

برد مؤثر: بالای ۱۰۰ کیلومتر

نوع فیوز: ضربه‌ای

سامانه هدایت و کنترل: سر جستجوگر تصویری، سطوح کنترلی دم و کامپیوتر پرواز

پیشران: موتور مینی جت
*






*is it a new warhead ?

*












PeeD said:


> The Kh-55 engine is difficult to be economically serial produced. Iran is only since a few decades into the turbo machinery business and the Kh-55 engine top technology.
> 
> But the main reason should be that subsonic CMs can be easily shot down, often even almost intact. A non-stealth CM could be easily picked up by enemy AWACS and intercepted due to subsonic speed.
> 
> So this is vulnerabel technology that can be detected, intercepted and captured intact. It can't be used against a protected target and if you have no other choices, you need to use them in high numbers to create a saturation effect (like US Tomahawks in Syria).
> 
> You can use intelligence to circumvent defenses and attack from the least protected direction. But Iran should only use it's CM's if the risk of technology loss is worth it and the most potent enemy defenses are already taken out by other means, degraded to a medium threat level. Then the accuracy of CMs can be exploited.
> 
> However in light of BMs such as the Zolfaghar, questions will arrive: Which weapon system is more economic? It is well possible that the Soumar was not competitive in cost-effect calculation against Irans BMs. Hence the team was forced to develop a cost effective alternative that could compete, with the Hoveyzieh as result.
> 
> Russia was basically forced to go for CMs as their intermediate range treaty forbids them to have BMs.
> I imagine that without that treaty, they would have used Oka-like BMs from their own territory to strike daesh targets in Syria.
> However CMs would be a added capability for Iran that forces the enemy to invest and keep counter assets.



i think they removed *Hoveyzieh CM* i did not see it today at all. did you? . but why?

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## scythian500



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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> i would say the cost effective scenario is the main reason that they changed the engine, for example, by lunching Hoveyzieh at much less distance then soumar CM was built to hit. like military targets in Israel. you would not lunch an 2500 km missile for targets that are 1200 km away it would not be cost effective.



cruise missiles become easy targets when flying in a straight line and at optimal altitude due to their relatively slow speeds so 2500km doesn't mean its built for targets beyond 2000km because at the very least that's the max range you would need to effectively hit a target that's 1200km away and even then against a highly protected airspace like Israel you would need to conduct various tactics and countermeasures and attempt to overwhelm their defenses with blitz tactics to be effective...

Even in the 80's when Iran wanted to attack the H3 Airbases in Iraq our pilots couldn't simply fly in a straight line at an optimal cruise altitude towards those targets and that was with the sensor and defense capabilities of the 80's....

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> I think you hint to a kind of communication via quantum entanglement. Unfortunately this is impossible with known physics. Quantum entanglement can only ensure that the data is legit/original and not falsified. The radio energy for transmission can still be jammed or taken out.
> So the very high level robust and secure communication needed for such UAVs is not possible today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Possible yes. But for a air launched weapon you would go for a more compact engine, as the original Soumar. It is ground launch which does not require a pop-out engine nacelle or a very compact engine.
> The Hoveyzieh has no booster mounted but either the Soumar was not mastered and they needed to switch down to a turbojet variant or the Hoveyzieh is a cost effective conventional interpretation of the expensive, nuclear, air launched Kh-55/Soumar.
> It would be no shame if the Kh-55 turbofan was not mastered or deemed sufficiently cost effective. That's because the Kh-55 was so advanced in its non-propulsion aspects, that its huge 2500km range would still result in a considerable range performance in a Toloue powered turbojet variant.
> The 1500km range claim by Hajizadeh could indeed be for a turbojet powered Kh-55.



Yes sir! quantum entanglement of photons and I'm going based on what Salehi said and that is near instantaneous and 100% secure (without physical access to the device at least) quantum com's and for military application like a UCAV it would be 2 devices linked together that can only communicate with each other

And I wouldn't say it's impossible, it's most definitely theoretically possible and they way Salehi was speaking was as if it would even be commercially available within the next 2 decades.... 

And for a supersonic remotely operated UCAV to be truly superior to a manned fighter you would need near instantaneous com's with almost 0 lag time. 

As for the Hoveyzeh if the engine is truly a turbojet that would be disappointing but on top of that the locations of the control surfaces & location of the engine are also disappointing and put together will result in a higher RCS and clearly they planed for the cheapest rout by using the same flight controls, computers and avionics as the Soumar and KH-55… 

But that said when it comes to low cost Cruise Missile I believe the most important factor should be the ability to produce them quickly and in vast numbers and if every part is truly produced at home then they shouldn't cost Iran any more than $100K-$200K USD each

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## skyshadow



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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> *اخگر؛ سلاح جدید پهپادهای ایرانی
> 
> موشک اخگر که در نمایشگاه دستاوردهای دفاعی نیروهای مسلح به نمایش درآمده، جدیدترین سلاح پهپادهای ایرانی است که از فاصله ۳۰ کیلومتری و از پهپاد قابلیت شلیک به سمت اهداف را دارد.
> 
> این موشک که مجهز به یک موتور میکروجت است، با سرعت ۶۰۰ کیلومتر بر ساعت از سرجنگی ۷ کیلوگرمی برخوردار است.
> 
> 
> مشخصات موشک اخگر:
> 
> وزن موشک: ۲۷ کیلوگرم
> 
> وزن سرجنگی: ۷ کیلوگرم
> 
> برد موشک: ۳۰ کیلومتر
> 
> حداکثر سرعت: ۶۰۰ کیلومتر
> 
> طول موشک: ۱.۷ متر
> 
> قطر موشک: ۱۳ سانتی‌متر
> 
> نوع هدایت: تلویزیونی*


if true then its probably the lightest missile that can reach that range

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## Sineva

Hack-Hook said:


> if true then its probably the lightest missile that can reach that range


Whats interesting is that there are actually 2 missiles with this configuration,a lightweight....








...and a heavyweight that is based on the qassad 3 rocket boosted glide bomb airframe

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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> Yes sir! quantum entanglement of photons and I'm going based on what Salehi said and that is near instantaneous and 100% secure (without physical access to the device at least) quantum com's and for military application like a UCAV it would be 2 devices linked together that can only communicate with each other
> 
> And I wouldn't say it's impossible, it's most definitely theoretically possible and they way Salehi was speaking was as if it would even be commercially available within the next 2 decades....
> 
> And for a supersonic remotely operated UCAV to be truly superior to a manned fighter you would need near instantaneous com's with almost 0 lag time.
> 
> As for the Hoveyzeh if the engine is truly a turbojet that would be disappointing but on top of that the locations of the control surfaces & location of the engine are also disappointing and put together will result in a higher RCS and clearly they planed for the cheapest rout by using the same flight controls, computers and avionics as the Soumar and KH-55…
> 
> But that said when it comes to low cost Cruise Missile I believe the most important factor should be the ability to produce them quickly and in vast numbers and if every part is truly produced at home then they shouldn't cost Iran any more than $100K-$200K USD each



I was disappointed to hear that from Salehi. He is a technical man and should know that such communication would break the accepted physical law that faster than light travel or communication is impossible. Einsteins relativity theory would be violated if such instant communication via quantum entanglement would be possible.

I think he got that wrong and it is very unlikely that Iran has falsified Einsteins theory.

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## skyshadow

*Iranian Arash radar. AESA radar.*

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> I was disappointed to hear that from Salehi. He is a technical man and should know that such communication would break the accepted physical law that faster than light travel or communication is impossible. Einsteins relativity theory would be violated if such instant communication via quantum entanglement would be possible.
> 
> I think he got that wrong and it is very unlikely that Iran has falsified Einsteins theory.



Come on man you should know the current laws of known physics don't apply at a sub atomic level! Gravity doesn't follow the same rules either because if it did we wouldn't exist for most of our body is actually made up of empty space....


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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> I was disappointed to hear that from Salehi. He is a technical man and should know that such communication would break the accepted physical law that faster than light travel or communication is impossible. Einsteins relativity theory would be violated if such instant communication via quantum entanglement would be possible.
> 
> I think he got that wrong and it is very unlikely that Iran has falsified Einsteins theory.



You are wrong.

If two quantum particles are “entangled” it doesn’t matter if one is 5 Million light years away, if one is “altered” the other quantum particle responds near instantly. 

Current laws of physics break down at the sub atomic level.


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## skyshadow

*new missile?









*

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## PeeD

@VEVAK @TheImmortal 

Relativity forbids FTL communication and Salehis quantum entanglement would be FTL communication.
I checked this back then when Salehi stated this and I got confused.

Let me put it this way: If that would be possible, you would equip a starship with a reservoir of entangled quantum and communicate with earth instantly, even if light years away. Relativity forbids this (I would love if it would be possible).

@skyshadow 

Looks like a Emad variant (retro booster) or maybe a new Qiam variant.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK @TheImmortal
> 
> Relativity forbids FTL communication and Salehis quantum entanglement would be FTL communication.
> I checked this back then when Salehi stated this and I got confused.
> 
> Let me put it this way: If that would be possible, you would equip a starship with a reservoir of entangled quantum and communicate with earth instantly, even if light years away. Relativity forbids this (I would love if it would be possible).
> 
> @skyshadow
> 
> Looks like a Emad variant (retro booster) or maybe a new Qiam variant.


the missile body looks more like Qiam. and i have some good news, we have a new radar.


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK @TheImmortal
> 
> Relativity forbids FTL communication and Salehis quantum entanglement would be FTL communication.
> I checked this back then when Salehi stated this and I got confused.
> 
> Let me put it this way: If that would be possible, you would equip a starship with a reservoir of entangled quantum and communicate with earth instantly, even if light years away. Relativity forbids this (I would love if it would be possible).
> 
> @skyshadow
> 
> Looks like a Emad variant (retro booster) or maybe a new Qiam variant.



YES FTL communications within normal space would be impossible but quantum communications would be more like Subspace communications and we currently don't know enough about them to know what the actual range or speed is. And it may seem instantaneous with our current measurement capabilities and within the ranges we can test them but it doesn't necessarily mean it actually is when tested within light years away!

I can also claim the laws of Gravity forbids my body to be mostly filled with empty space and yet we all know that it is! Fact is current laws of known physics DO NOT apply at a subatomic level

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## skyshadow

congratulations, Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missile was unveiled too.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK @TheImmortal
> 
> Relativity forbids FTL communication and Salehis quantum entanglement would be FTL communication.
> I checked this back then when Salehi stated this and I got confused.
> 
> Let me put it this way: If that would be possible, you would equip a starship with a reservoir of entangled quantum and communicate with earth instantly, even if light years away. Relativity forbids this (I would love if it would be possible).
> 
> @skyshadow
> 
> Looks like a Emad variant (retro booster) or maybe a new Qiam variant.



Yes and no.

FTL comm based on current physics laws is not possible. 

However, natural disentanglement DOES result in instanteous response thus breaking FTL. However, the relevation of entanglement/disentanglement can only be done using LESS than faster than light travel communication methods. Basically we cannot confirm it happened instanteously and have to rely on less than FTL methods thus not breaking Einstein’s speed limit.


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## Draco.IMF

skyshadow said:


> congratulations, Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missile was unveiled too.
> 
> View attachment 536559
> View attachment 536558



please someone translate the farsi letters describing this missile


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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> congratulations, Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missile was unveiled too.
> 
> View attachment 536559
> View attachment 536558



Is this related to Khorramshahr 1 Missile? This looks too “skinny” to be a Khorramshahr Missile looks like a Scud based missile.

Either way if it is based on Khorramshahr Missile it looks like like removed the original warhead and replaced it with an Emad.


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## mohsen

Iranian MP revealed, traitor government of Hasan Rouhani has already started negotiating on Iranian missiles.

1. In France, they have accepted to put a 700km cap on the range of Iranian missiles.

2. In Tehran, french negotiators reject their past agreement and demand a 300km range.

3.Iran refuses and french president threatens Iran with more sanction. (This part became public)



افشاگری کریمی قدوسی پیرامون گفتگوهای ایران و فرانسه درباره مسائل موشکی

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> Iranian MP revealed, traitor government of Hasan Rouhani has already started negotiating on Iranian missiles.
> 
> 1. In France, they have accepted to put a 700km cap on the range of Iranian missiles.
> 
> 2. In Tehran, french negotiators reject their past agreement and demand a 300km range.
> 
> 3.Iran refuses and french president threatens Iran with more sanction. (This part became public)
> 
> 
> 
> افشاگری کریمی قدوسی پیرامون گفتگوهای ایران و فرانسه درباره مسائل موشکی



Propaganda.

Rouhani has no room to negotiate on iranian BMs, not even Rahbar can do anything about Iranian missiles.

You oskhols need to wake up and smell the coffee. The IRGC makes up at least 40% of the Iranian economy. Possibly a much higher number if you consider companies that are run by IRGC loyalists.

IRGC runs Iran, Qassem solemani has more power in one finger than Rouhani has in his body. Iran’s parliament and every major official could be wiped out by IRGC if it so desires.

IRGC controls the drug trade and alcohol trade in Iran. It’s illegal activities around the world bring it hundreds of millions if not billions in income a year.

IRGC giving up missiles would be the equivalent of North Korea giving up its nukes.

NOT.GONNA.HAPPEN

Iran’s fight with Israel has nothing to do with plight of the Palestinians. It is a plan to break the Zionist controlled world order that Nazi Germany feared would take over if it lost the war.

As the last non west controlled Aryan country to stand in the world. Iran will continuously be attacked until it is destroyed or once again brought under the control of the West.

Thus this battle is existential one, there cannot be a world where Israel (The government not the state) and Iran exist.....at least not in the current state of affairs. The west refuses to share the stage with Iran (least of which one that is also a Shiite Muslim sect).

This is also why Russia and China don’t want a strong Iran. They too would be endangered by the rise of the Persian Aryan Shiite Empire as these three words symbolize greatness in world history.

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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> please someone translate the farsi letters describing this missile



* Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missile specifications.
*

*Missile type: surface to surface, long rang

Build country: IRAN

Missile range: 2000 km

Missile weight: 19500 kg

Warhead weight: 1500 kg

Missile length: 13 m

Missile diameter: 150 cm

Missile engine: Liquid fuel*

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## Draco.IMF

mohsen said:


> Iranian MP revealed, traitor government of Hasan Rouhani has already started negotiating on Iranian missiles.
> 
> 1. In France, they have accepted to put a 700km cap on the range of Iranian missiles.
> 
> 2. In Tehran, french negotiators reject their past agreement and demand a 300km range.
> 
> 3.Iran refuses and french president threatens Iran with more sanction. (This part became public)
> 
> افشاگری کریمی قدوسی پیرامون گفتگوهای ایران و فرانسه درباره مسائل موشکی



i wouldnt be worried about missiles, Rouhani has absolutely no say here
He can negotiate whatever he want, missiles are off the table, again, he has zero leverage over IRGC
Missiles are Iranians life insurance, thats what keeping the zionists away from war with Iran.

Im often thinking about the scene from "300" as the persians launched thousands of arrows directed at the spartans, there were so many arrows that the sun was darkened.






And Im imagine myself: *"Every arrow you see in this scene will be today a missile"
*

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> Is this related to Khorramshahr 1 Missile? This looks too “skinny” to be a Khorramshahr Missile looks like a Scud based missile.
> 
> Either way if it is based on Khorramshahr Missile it looks like like removed the original warhead and replaced it with an Emad.


Yes, this is the second generation of Khorramshahr missile family. diameter and the length looks the same as Khorramshahr_1 maybe in the photo it looks like its skinny, the warhead weight of the Emad missile is 600 kilograms but Khorramshahr_2 warhead weight is 1500 kilograms.

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## sha ah

Akhgar new missile for drones ...

Weight : 27kg

Weight of warhead : 7kg

Range : 30km

Max speed : 600km/h

Length : 1.7m

Diameter : 13cm

Guidance : Television guidance



Hack-Hook said:


> if true then its probably the lightest missile that can reach that range

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## skyshadow




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## sha ah

sha ah said:


> View attachment 536579
> Akhgar new missile for drones ...
> 
> Weight : 27kg
> 
> Weight of warhead : 7kg
> 
> Range : 30km
> 
> Max speed : 600km/h
> 
> Length : 1.7m
> 
> Diameter : 13cm
> 
> Guidance : Television guidance










Looks like a miniature version of the Bavar 373 missile. In the background you see the system in its entirely. Looks good but why only 2 canisters ? why not 4 ? I've seen this with some Sayyad systems as well, while others have 4... why ? 





Supposed to be new Noor Cruise Missile launcher 






Talash air defense system. 4 canisters. That's the way I like it. 






Howeizeh new generation of Sumar cruise missile











Toophan 3M ATGM

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## mohsen

TheImmortal said:


> Propaganda.
> 
> Rouhani has no room to negotiate on iranian BMs, not even Rahbar can do anything about Iranian missiles.
> 
> You oskhols need to wake up and smell the coffee. The IRGC makes up at least 40% of the Iranian economy. Possibly a much higher number if you consider companies that are run by IRGC loyalists.
> 
> IRGC runs Iran, Qassem solemani has more power in one finger than Rouhani has in his body. Iran’s parliament and every major official could be wiped out by IRGC if it so desires.
> 
> IRGC controls the drug trade and alcohol trade in Iran. It’s illegal activities around the world bring it hundreds of millions if not billions in income a year.
> 
> IRGC giving up missiles would be the equivalent of North Korea giving up its nukes.
> 
> NOT.GONNA.HAPPEN
> 
> Iran’s fight with Israel has nothing to do with plight of the Palestinians. It is a plan to break the Zionist controlled world order that Nazi Germany feared would take over if it lost the war.
> 
> As the last non west controlled Aryan country to stand in the world. Iran will continuously be attacked until it is destroyed or once again brought under the control of the West.
> 
> Thus this battle is existential one, there cannot be a world where Israel (The government not the state) and Iran exist.....at least not in the current state of affairs. The west refuses to share the stage with Iran (least of which one that is also a Shiite Muslim sect).
> 
> This is also why Russia and China don’t want a strong Iran. They too would be endangered by the rise of the Persian Aryan Shiite Empire as these three words symbolize greatness in world history.


Propaganda my a§§, even foreign ministry spokesman indirectly confirmed it by saying
" I can not confirm" this news.

Of course Traitors have no authority for it, otherwise today Iran was another Libya.

But Traitors are following a multi step approach to prepare people's mind.

Provoking the public against IRGC by saying irgc runs Iran economy, provoking people by saying this is the era of talks not missiles, etc. (there is always enough fools to believe them)

Their media is already filled with articles about benefits of negotiating on our missile program, empty promises of lifting all sanctions.

when they provoked the public enough, then they can put pressure on leader too.

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> Yes, this is the second generation of Khorramshahr missile family. diameter and the length looks the same as Khorramshahr_1 maybe in the photo it looks like its skinny, the warhead weight of the Emad missile is 600 kilograms but Khorramshahr_2 warhead weight is 1500 kilograms.



So what’s with the decrease in warhead weight? Khorramshahr-1 had a warhead weight of 1800kg.

And I ment the new missile uses an enlarged Emad like warhead for great maneuverability/precision.

Khorramshahr-1 warhead:






Notice the “older” warhead design much like the first Shahab-3 warheads.

New generation has stabilizer fins on its warhead similar to Emad. The warhead shape is slimmer like on the latest gen of Ghadr and Iranian missiles.

Its possible this version is not a MIRV or IRV bus, but rather a missile designed to deliver one warhead to a single target with the most destructive power (1500kg).

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## mohsen

Hoveizeh was officially unveiled.
Range: 1350km

Range of Sumar was announced as 700km.

General Hajizadeh said our problems for jet engines has been solved and promised new cruise missiles of all kinds, including the anti ship variants.

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## yavar

Iran Long-Range land attack Cruise Missile Hoveizeh, with a range of 1350 kilometers


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## skyshadow

mohsen said:


> Hoveizeh was officially unveiled.
> Range: 1350km
> 
> Range of Sumar was announced as 700km.
> 
> General Hajizadeh said our problems for jet engines has been solved and promised new cruise missiles of all kinds, including the anti ship variants.


just 700 km ? .  that's a big fat lie

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## yavar



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## PeeD

So we see the following:
- Original Kh-55 had a range of 2500km (advanced turbofan)
- Hoveizieh has a range of about half of that (unknown different, non-pop out long engine)

So what can be concluded from this?

Scenario 1: Soumar with the original Kh-55 turbofan didn't reach production stage because of inability to serial produce a copy of the advanced Kh-55 turbofan

Scenario 2: That failed Soumar was replaced with a Tolou turbojet with added stages or afterburner enabling it to power the Hoveizieh

Scenario 3: Kh-55 engine was mastered with the Soumar, but a heavier warhead variant was required. In order to make this possible, a "mild" afterburner was added to the Kh-55 engine for increased thrust. Heavier warhead and afterburner cut range in half.

Scenario 4: Soumars Kh-55 engine was too expensive to compete with ballistic missiles and an afterburning Toloue turbojet was developed, cutting the range in half.

Scenario 5: Meshkat/Soumar and now Hoveizieh are counter intelligence operations since they can't compete with Zolfaghar and Emad BMs in terms of cost-effect anyway.

Edit: If the Soumar had 700km range down from the 2500km of the Kh-55 and the Hoveizieh has a turbofan I wonder whether the missile shown is infact that 700km range Soumar with a lange and long Toloue variant (afterburner added?).
In that Scenario the real Hoveizieh would look like the Soumar/Kh-55 after they got a Kh-55 turbofan copy running hot for sufficient time to reach "strategic" 1350km range.

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## arashkamangir

yavar said:


>


That thing is f***ING huge!

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## yavar

arashkamangir said:


> That thing is f***ING huge!


the size of warhead is was trying to point out and the diameter so you can see difference between Somuar and Hoveizeh ,

it is clearly N****** capable missile, but of-course they are going denies it anyway

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## PeeD

The Pakistani Babur is a case where a country with access to mini-turbojet (China), used a large Tomahawk based airframe to supply a large amount of fuel. They managed 700-800km IIRC.
That would fit the claimed 700km of the Soumar.

As the Hoveizieh is visible at the exhibition, it seems to have a Toloue based engine. It has no exotic afterburner and is just on a spacey nacelle with a somewhat deep inlet duct resulting in that long nacelle. 
I have the feeling the Iranian 700km turbojet variant of the Kh-55 was shown for this open exhibition while the range figure of 1350km is in fact for variant with a Kh-55 like turbofan that can't be shown at a open exhibition.

The turbofan claim and 1350km range figure would fit a reverse engineered Kh-55 variant that just runs for ~1,5 hours before failing while the original 80's vintage Soviet engine (a technological marvel) survives for more than 3 hours to reach the max. range. The less fuel necessary for a 1,5 hour engine operation could then be used for a larger warhead.
It seems certain that a turbojet based CM of that dimensions could never reach 1350km, even with the best airframe materials.

The whole project is probably still in high classified condition of critical weapon systems.
Despite no cruise flight footage was shown I belief their claim that the first turbojet variant did 700km and now they have managed to reverse engineer a Kh-55 turbofan with half the operating lifetime (at a economic price).
We have also to notice that the Ya Ali CM with its Toloue turbojet also had a range claim of 700km.

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## Draco.IMF

*Iran Taunts Trump With Test-Launch Of New Long-Range Cruise Missile*

*https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...ump-test-launch-new-long-range-cruise-missile*


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## VEVAK

mohsen said:


> Iranian MP revealed, traitor government of Hasan Rouhani has already started negotiating on Iranian missiles.
> 
> 1. In France, they have accepted to put a 700km cap on the range of Iranian missiles.
> 
> 2. In Tehran, french negotiators reject their past agreement and demand a 300km range.
> 
> 3.Iran refuses and french president threatens Iran with more sanction. (This part became public)
> 
> 
> 
> افشاگری کریمی قدوسی پیرامون گفتگوهای ایران و فرانسه درباره مسائل موشکی



That's absurd!!!!! 

Do you have confirmation that Iran accepted a 700km cap and they refused? Because I'm willing to bet they would have jumped on it! Hell, they would of jumped on even 1000km because that would have effectively restricted Iran's capability to respond to any Israeli aggression since we don't actually have an Air Force nor the money to buy a new one in a sufficient amount of time! 

As for talking with other countries over our missile program I have no problem with our officials talking as long as the talks go something like:

Based on our recent history we have seen the west not just stand by but arm, fund and cheer Saddam when he invaded Iran and was using Missiles and WMD's against us a country who hasn't started a war in over 250 years we have seen the U.S. place sanctions and prevent us from upgrading our Air Force for 40 years now and for no good reason and now even if those sanctions get lifted we simply can not make up for 40 years in a sufficient time to defend our country and after the JCPOA we have gotten confirmation that we can not trust anyone with our security particularly the west especially after what you guys did to Qadaffi and Libya after he handed over his missiles.
Now if France is worried about Iranian missiles falling on France we will gladly sign a new none aggression treaty with France but we will build missiles of any range that we want but if you even wanna discuss the ranges of our BM due to U.S. actions on the JCPOA we would 1st need 2 decades of complete freedom of all sanctions including U.S. sanctions before we even agree to discuss the range's of our BM with you short of that it simply isn't going to happen and if that doesn't please you we will happily replace French companies in Iran with Chinese and Russian companies


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## mohsen

VEVAK said:


> That's absurd!!!!!
> 
> Do you have confirmation that Iran accepted a 700km cap and they refused? Because I'm willing to bet they would have jumped on it! Hell, they would of jumped on even 1000km because that would have effectively restricted Iran's capability to respond to any Israeli aggression since we don't actually have an Air Force nor the money to buy a new one in a sufficient amount of time!
> 
> As for talking with other countries over our missile program I have no problem with our officials talking as long as the talks go something like:
> 
> Based on our recent history we have seen the west not just stand by but arm, fund and cheer Saddam when he invaded Iran and was using Missiles and WMD's against us a country who hasn't started a war in over 250 years we have seen the U.S. place sanctions and prevent us from upgrading our Air Force for 40 years now and for no good reason and now even if those sanctions get lifted we simply can not make up for 40 years in a sufficient time to defend our country and after the JCPOA we have gotten confirmation that we can not trust anyone with our security particularly the west especially after what you guys did to Qadaffi and Libya after he handed over his missiles.
> Now if France is worried about Iranian missiles falling on France we will gladly sign a new none aggression treaty with France but we will build missiles of any range that we want but if you even wanna discuss the ranges of our BM due to U.S. actions on the JCPOA we would 1st need 2 decades of complete freedom of all sanctions including U.S. sanctions before we even agree to discuss the range's of our BM with you short of that it simply isn't going to happen and if that doesn't please you we will happily replace French companies in Iran with Chinese and Russian companies


It's not a small matter, Karimi Qoddusi can't lie, otherwise neither government, nor pro-government MPs wouldn't let him to get away with it.

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> It's not a small matter, Karimi Qoddusi can't lie, otherwise neither government, nor pro-government MPs wouldn't let him to get away with it.



Oh that’s rich, politicians can’t lie? STOP THE PRESSES everyone 

Iranian politicians are the most corrupt similar to their American counterparts. The Larijani brothers alone deserve to be purged from the republic.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> The Pakistani Babur is a case where a country with access to mini-turbojet (China), used a large Tomahawk based airframe to supply a large amount of fuel. They managed 700-800km IIRC.
> That would fit the claimed 700km of the Soumar.
> 
> As the Hoveizieh is visible at the exhibition, it seems to have a Toloue based engine. It has no exotic afterburner and is just on a spacey nacelle with a somewhat deep inlet duct resulting in that long nacelle.
> I have the feeling the Iranian 700km turbojet variant of the Kh-55 was shown for this open exhibition while the range figure of 1350km is in fact for variant with a Kh-55 like turbofan that can't be shown at a open exhibition.
> 
> The turbofan claim and 1350km range figure would fit a reverse engineered Kh-55 variant that just runs for ~1,5 hours before failing while the original 80's vintage Soviet engine (a technological marvel) survives for more than 3 hours to reach the max. range. The less fuel necessary for a 1,5 hour engine operation could then be used for a larger warhead.
> It seems certain that a turbojet based CM of that dimensions could never reach 1350km, even with the best airframe materials.
> 
> The whole project is probably still in high classified condition of critical weapon systems.
> Despite no cruise flight footage was shown I belief their claim that the first turbojet variant did 700km and now they have managed to reverse engineer a Kh-55 turbofan with half the operating lifetime (at a economic price).
> We have also to notice that the Ya Ali CM with its Toloue turbojet also had a range claim of 700km.




These ranges they are giving don't really specify at what altitude & with what size warhead so the ranges could vary....
But based on what's been reported Iran absolutely needs and is short of a cruise missile capable of cruising at ~850kph for a good 2 hours while carrying at least a 750lb bunker buster


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> These ranges they are giving don't really specify at what altitude & with what size warhead so the ranges could vary....
> But based on what's been reported Iran absolutely needs and is short of a cruise missile capable of cruising at ~850kph for a good 2 hours while carrying at least a 750lb bunker buster



Current cruise missile delivery system is useless and inefficient. Iran would need to have 20 single launcher tels trucks to launch just a 20 cruise missile salvo. It needs to create a 4-6 TEL cruise launcher. Single missile launcher makes sense for anti ship cruise missile as the target is vulnerable to even a single hit. An airbase or military base or convoy is not.

Meanwhile all the major powers can fire 100 salvo off of one large cruiser.

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## Aramagedon

Iranian Hoveizeh cruise missle

Its good to hunt Yankees and wahhabi terrorist outside our border.


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Current cruise missile delivery system is useless and inefficient. Iran would need to have 20 single launcher tels trucks to launch just a 20 cruise missile salvo. It needs to create a 4-6 TEL cruise launcher. Single missile launcher makes sense for anti ship cruise missile as the target is vulnerable to even a single hit. An airbase or military base or convoy is not.
> 
> Meanwhile all the major powers can fire 100 salvo off of one large cruiser.



While I do agree with your overall statement and I also think Iran has to improve it's ability to launch these weapons off of many different platforms rather than just a single launcher off of a truck. Recently, I had a talk with one of the patrons here on PDF not too long ago. We we going over the video/pictures showing Iran launching a missile from a truck that had clear retractable panels that shielded the anti-ship cruise weapons inside. But logic would indicate that this platform which held the cruise missile was meant to look like any old truck. So maybe this sort of thinking is what the Iranians are going for when it comes to how they will field these long range missile systems. 

A numerous amount of cruise missiles spread out all over Iran in trucks and platforms that are indistinguishable from ordinary civilian vehicles. But a tell with 3 or more tubes for the cruise missiles is also viable and probably what Iran is working on since we do see images of trucks that have 3 tubes for cruise missiles on them. 

Just a thought, sorry for any grammatical errors lol.

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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> While I do agree with your overall statement and I also think Iran has to improve it's ability to launch these weapons off of many different platforms rather than just a single launcher off of a truck. Recently, I had a talk with one of the patrons here on PDF not too long ago. We we going over the video/pictures showing Iran launching a missile from a truck that had clear retractable panels that shielded the anti-ship cruise weapons inside. But logic would indicate that this platform which held the cruise missile was meant to look like any old truck. So maybe this sort of thinking is what the Iranians are going for when it comes to how they will field these long range missile systems.
> 
> A numerous amount of cruise missiles spread out all over Iran in trucks and platforms that are indistinguishable from ordinary civilian vehicles. But a tell with 3 or more tubes for the cruise missiles is also viable and probably what Iran is working on since we do see images of trucks that have 3 tubes for cruise missiles on them.
> 
> Just a thought, sorry for any grammatical errors lol.



Land attack Cruise missiles are viable in low numbers under following scenarios:

Nuclear payload

Supersonic/Hypersonic 

Reduced RCS (stealth based CM)

None of Iran’s CMs have these capabilities. Thus unless they produced in thousands and tens of thousands, they represent very little more than cannon fodder to distract enemies air defenses.

Iran needs to be able to launch 500-1000 cruise missiles in the first 48 hours of any conflict.

Iran’s stockpile likely needs to be in tens of thousands to ensure ample supply during war time.

Conventional CMs are a saturation based weapon. I know Iran already announced development of supersonic CMs. 

At this time I am not really impressed by current LACMs that Iran has developed, they are easy to defend against and have a high RCS.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Land attack Cruise missiles are viable in low numbers under following scenarios:
> 
> Nuclear payload
> 
> Supersonic/Hypersonic
> 
> Reduced RCS (stealth based CM)
> 
> None of Iran’s CMs have these capabilities. Thus unless they produced in thousands and tens of thousands, they represent very little more than cannon fodder to distract enemies air defenses.
> 
> Iran needs to be able to launch 500-1000 cruise missiles in the first 48 hours of any conflict.
> 
> Iran’s stockpile likely needs to be in tens of thousands to ensure ample supply during war time.
> 
> Conventional CMs are a saturation based weapon. I know Iran already announced development of supersonic CMs.
> 
> At this time I am not really impressed by current LACMs that Iran has developed, they are easy to defend against and have a high RCS.



Just spit-balling here. Realistically speaking, is Iran poised to develop nuclear armaments in the future or near future? It has the perfect platforms for it practically speaking.

Can Iran even produce thousands of BMs and CMs in a war time scenario?

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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Just spit-balling here. Realistically speaking, is Iran poised to develop nuclear armaments in the future or near future? It has the perfect platforms for it practically speaking.
> 
> Can Iran even produce thousands of BMs and CMs in a war time scenario?



The only way Iran goes nuclear is during a war or if the world gets distracted from some type of geopolitical event and Iran is able to use this distraction to go nuclear without the fear of reprisals. 

Iran shouldn’t count on producing many BMs or CMs during a war, especially if they expect their adversary to be US or Israel, as any major military target will be under constant threat of bombardment.

Thus Iran should be building stockpiles now of anything it might need during the war. Iran’s weapon production during a military conflict will be low and likely limited to secret factories (likely underground) that the west doesn’t know about.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> The only way Iran goes nuclear is during a war or if the world gets distracted from some type of geopolitical event and Iran is able to use this distraction to go nuclear without the fear of reprisals.
> 
> Iran shouldn’t count on producing many BMs or CMs during a war, especially if they expect their adversary to be US or Israel, as any major military target will be under constant threat of bombardment.
> 
> Thus Iran should be building stockpiles now of anything it might need during the war. Iran’s weapon production during a military conflict will be low and likely limited to secret factories (likely underground) that the west doesn’t know about.



I get the profound feeling that Iran has a higher rate of weapons production than it leads on in all honesty. At least this is what I hope is the case lol.

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## skyshadow

*
Khorramshahr_1 VS Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missiles*
*








Qiam ballistic missile with guided warhead







Zelzal 3 rocket with guided warhead





*

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## Sineva

Khorramshahr elevated on tel,sadly the engine nozzle appears to be covered.

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## VEVAK

mohsen said:


> It's not a small matter, Karimi Qoddusi can't lie, otherwise neither government, nor pro-government MPs wouldn't let him to get away with it.



Come on man, anyone can lie or twist the truth and it really isn't the job of Iranian government and MP's to respond to every ridicules claim because that also would be absurd....

Yes I agree that it's possible that the Rohani administration spoke to the French about Iran's missile program just to feel them out and see what it is they are after and as a result we figured out they are looking for a limitation between 300km-700km but to me it's quite doubtful that Iran would have proposed a 700km limitation because that limitation would effectively put us at the merci of both Israel and Saudi Arabia especially with our +40 year old Air Force 
Qaddafi handed over his missiles and look where he is and where Libya is, Saddam also agreed to a 300km limitation and look at all the good that did him.... 
Plus putting into account U.S. behavior after the JCPOA it would be utter lunacy for Iran to even agree to not build ICBM's and fact is after the French comment I believe Iran has to now start both a liquid fuel and solid fuel ICBM program and Iran needs to show clear consequences



TheImmortal said:


> Current cruise missile delivery system is useless and inefficient. Iran would need to have 20 single launcher tels trucks to launch just a 20 cruise missile salvo. It needs to create a 4-6 TEL cruise launcher. Single missile launcher makes sense for anti ship cruise missile as the target is vulnerable to even a single hit. An airbase or military base or convoy is not.
> 
> Meanwhile all the major powers can fire 100 salvo off of one large cruiser.




If you can launch 1-2 with a $100K truck as appose to 4 with a $200k truck and you can produce the $100k truck in far greater numbers (10 per every large truck) then a larger truck then it makes perfect sense because they will be harder to find easier to hid and loosing a few wouldn't severally diminish your capabilities ​.

Also a cruiser has to launch it's 100 missiles from a single location and has to launch them one at a time while Iran can spread them out and launch 100 off 50 trucks from various locations 50 at a time with the ability to reload within a few hours and loosing 10 of your trucks won't severally effect your capabilities while on a cruise a single hit on the right spot with a right type of warhead would put it out of commission 

I think 1 or 2 per truck is fine as long as the cost and production capability makes sense

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## Hack-Hook

If you want to launch in great number , then you first must have VLS and then some how make that engine in the missile belly go away .


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## Aramagedon

Khoramshahr Missile:


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092385779454750722

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092375501040173057

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## skyshadow

*Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missiles test look at the warhead dive. itttttttttttts greattttttttttttttt*
*


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
*

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## Aramagedon

skyshadow said:


> *Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missiles test look at the warhead dive. itttttttttttts greattttttttttttttt
> 
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> *




Looks extremely fatal.


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## skyshadow

Ziggurat “TepeSialk“ said:


> Looks extremely fatal.


it dose and the engine looks different too i think maybe im wrong. but it is deadly accurate what is the error rate on that 30 m ? maybe less.

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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> it dose and the engine looks different too i think maybe im wrong. but it is deadly accurate what is the error rate on that 30 m ? maybe less.


According to some people here more than several kilometer and iran actually fired several thousands of them to make on fall in the center of video.



skyshadow said:


> *Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missiles test look at the warhead dive. itttttttttttts greattttttttttttttt
> 
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> *


Looks faster than our previous warheads.

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## Dexon

skyshadow said:


> *Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missiles test look at the warhead dive. itttttttttttts greattttttttttttttt
> 
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> *



The warhead shone completely due to its high speed and heat. This is not normal at all!

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## PeeD

Now imagine what thermal stress those RV steering fins are exposed to... highest dynamic pressure plus enclosed in plasma 

A case of the mastering of a key technology.

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> *Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missiles test look at the warhead dive. itttttttttttts greattttttttttttttt
> 
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> *



Very proud of my Iranian friends at successfully mastering R-27 Design. Their is much potential this missile type can lead Iran to.

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## WinterNights

This is incredible man. So can we now also assume Iran has a 2000km ranged antiship ballistic missile? I don't see why this missile could not target a large, slow moving aircraft carrier!

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## Sineva

WinterNights said:


> This is incredible man. So can we now also assume Iran has a 2000km ranged antiship ballistic missile? I don't see why this missile could not target a large, slow moving aircraft carrier!


The problem there is finding the target in real time and passing the updates on its location in real time to the weapon.In order to make use of the effective range of the weapon[2-3000km depending on payload] in that role you would need either a constellation of low level recon sats or very,very long range drones,which in all likelihood would need its own com sats to communicate at those ranges.
To really use these missiles in that role you would need to beef up irans long range surveillance capabilities.
One option tho would be attacking things like carriers in very,very confined waterways,such as the suez canal,where agents on the ground could give you the basic updates required on the exact position of the target.

Heres a close up of the back end of the khorramshahr,sadly you cant see that much because of the covering.





Personally I`m not that sure about the claim of that material being a "thermal blanket"

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## WinterNights

Sineva said:


> The problem there is finding the target in real time and passing the updates on its location in real time to the weapon.In order to make use of the effective range of the weapon[2-3000km depending on payload] in that role you would need either a constellation of low level recon sats or very,very long range drones,which in all likelihood would need its own com sats to communicate at those ranges.
> To really use these missiles in that role you would need to beef up irans long range surveillance capabilities.
> One option tho would be attacking things like carriers in very,very confined waterways,such as the suez canal,where agents on the ground could give you the basic updates required on the exact position of the target.
> 
> Heres a close up of the back end of the khorramshahr,sadly you cant see that much because of the covering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I`m not that sure about the claim of that material being a "thermal blanket"




Yes that is a very good point. I think the main barrier for Iran targeting ships 2000-3000km away is due to surveillance/detection and not the missiles itself. Hopefully the OTH radars Iran builds can aid in surface ship detection and this combined with spy ships/ drones can aid us in this. I think from now on, Iran should try and have such spy ships at those distances to keep an eye on the "traffic". Assuming we already are not doing that!

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## yavar



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## PeeD

One of the roles a large S-171 makes sense is exactly such sea surveillance. Long range SAR and optical sensors, no weapons.

A key to that is long range areal data-link and a small swarm that relay that data back to the HQ. One of the two bumps of the RQ-170 may houses such a system. The S-129 now also has a redesigned front cover that may house such a system. So we have indications that this communication system has been mastered.

If Iran masters a Mig-31-like phased array long range pencil beam communication link, several stealth relay drones would keep non-satellite connection to the S-171 in the target area. The S-171 would then just request such a MaRV on a solid fuel missile if it has found a ship.

This is the path and it now only depends on when the engine of the RQ-170 can be serial produced successfully.

Everyone should realize that this is no emergency solution due to lack of satcom. It is a new communication layer which may prove even more robust than a satcom. Strategic powers have developed to ability to take out predicted orbit satellites with ASATs.

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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> According to some people here more than several kilometer and iran actually fired several thousands of them to make on fall in the center of video.
> 
> 
> Looks faster than our previous warheads.




Yes, because at hypersonic speed molecules break apart creating an electrically charged plasma layer around the missile warhead. It is quite obvious that the speed of the warhead is higher than Mach 13.



Dexon said:


> The warhead shone completely due to its high speed and heat. This is not normal at all!



that is true, we never had missiles that can reach an speed higher than Mach 12, perhaps other than the Khorramshahr _ 1.



Stryker1982 said:


> Very proud of my Iranian friends at successfully mastering R-27 Design. Their is much potential this missile type can lead Iran to.



Thank you. Surely we are waiting for better news. We also have news about testing various rocket engines on the anti-aircraft missiles. technological engine 04, written on rocket body.

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## Hack-Hook

PeeD said:


> One of the roles a large S-171 makes sense is exactly such sea surveillance. Long range SAR and optical sensors, no weapons.
> 
> A key to that is long range areal data-link and a small swarm that relay that data back to the HQ. One of the two bumps of the RQ-170 may houses such a system. The S-129 now also has a redesigned front cover that may house such a system. So we have indications that this communication system has been mastered.
> 
> If Iran masters a Mig-31-like phased array long range pencil beam communication link, several stealth relay drones would keep non-satellite connection to the S-171 in the target area. The S-171 would then just request such a MaRV on a solid fuel missile if it has found a ship.
> 
> This is the path and it now only depends on when the engine of the RQ-170 can be serial produced successfully.
> 
> Everyone should realize that this is no emergency solution due to lack of satcom. It is a new communication layer which may prove even more robust than a satcom. Strategic powers have developed to ability to take out predicted orbit satellites with ASATs.


I wonder if the fact that those steering fin on the warhead acted and operated at those speeds and temperature means we mastered a new level in methalorgy.

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## PeeD

A new level of carbon and composite technology.

Regarding the crashed booster stage:
This should be the "Qiam-3". It shows how important the Qiams place and target list is for Irans BM arsenal.
9 years after the Qiam they may soon switch production to a new variant.

The Qiam-3 would be basically a Qiam-2 but with UDMH fuel and the vernier engines of the Khorramshahr.
-The new fuel for the modified SCUD-B engine would add thrust.
-The two venier engines another extra thrust
-The lack of jet vanes once again give some extra thrust.
Result would be a Qiam with about 1000-1200km or about 40% extra thrust.

Those changes increase cost but about the same happens as with the Noor and Nasir AshM: Much smaller missile with similar performance (in context of Shahab-3 and Qiam-3).

This miniaturization (75% weight reduction) should be worth it. A new liquid workhorse. 
If the Ghadr/Emad are also replaced with the Khorrmashahr, all purely SCUD based technology will be replaced by R-27 heritage technology.

Plus: the small fins of the Qiam-2 can be removed again like on the Qiam-1

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## yavar



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## TheImmortal

Most warheads glow upon entering the atmosphere, doesn’t mean much.

Also doubtful that this missile has terminal velocity even close to Mach 13. As a warheads enters the atmosphere it starts decelerating due to friction. Depending on the angle of entry into the atmosphere and other factors, it could lose quite a bit of speed (several “machs”).

Since this is 2,500-4,000KM Missile design it would be unlikely that it could match the Terminal velocity of a russian or American ICBM warhead.

Mastering BM-25 (H-10) is necessary step in order for Iran to begin testing designs along the lines of H-14 and H-15 (NK ICBMs). Iran likely has an contingency ICBM program at Sharoud Missile base.

The key will be if we start seeing Iranian SLVs using R-27 engines instead of old scud engines.

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## Websorber

*Iran Shows Off Islamic Revolution's Achievements*

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## Aramagedon

Nice documentary:


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## skyshadow



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## T-72B

skyshadow said:


> /QUOTE]


Sejjil 1 or 2?

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## like_a_boss

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093545513520123904

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093550239821295617

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## Safriz

All this will be given to Yemeni terrorists and used against our Saudi brothers

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## ashool

dezfool missile
reng 1000 km

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## WinterNights

ashool said:


> dezfool missile
> reng 1000 km



HOLY $HIT. This Fateh family is bad ***. They're already at 1000 km 

From 500 to 750 and now 1000. All in a span of just couple of years.

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## Draco.IMF

like_a_boss said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093545513520123904
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093550239821295617
> View attachment 537522




Jesus Christ !! i have one question:

Do Iranian engineers sleep in general ??
I mean, so many achievements, when they have time to rest?

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## Hack-Hook

WinterNights said:


> HOLY $HIT. This Fateh family is bad ***. They're already at 1000 km
> 
> From 500 to 750 and now 1000. All in a span of just couple of years.


Well in one to two years who need shahab any more?

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## Draco.IMF

*Iran's underground missile city*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093568397311389697

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## PeeD

250km range basic Fateh
300km last generation
500km -313 version using composite sections
700km Zolfaghar, increased size and probably filament composite booster and maybe post-boost glide vehicle.
1000km Dezful, either more and improved filament composite technology or the use of a post-boost glide vehicle or optimization of it.

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## sanel1412

شاھین میزایل said:


> All this will be given to Yemeni terrorists and used against our Saudi brothers


How can people who defend themself in own country can be terorists?Your own statemen is telling "I'm idiot"...basicly you are saying that Yemenese will get this missile to defend Yemen from Saudi family(my god I can't stop laugh when ever I say or write Saudi Arabia...country without constitution..named by their ruler familly..when they change ruling famila they will have to change name also).I'm sorry for any people ,including people in Saudi Arabia but I'm sorry Yemen people much more because they were attacked in own country with 5 Arab armies...and only idiot can support Saudi war crimes in Yemen..for god sake even their sponsors US had to condemn their crimes...they bomb bus full of childrens and you are calling terorists people who fight against them...Well gues what,they are not terorists....international law is very clear..they have every right to defend themself and even respond and target military and government infrastucture in any country that send their military in Yemen...To be honest,I'm sick when I see what they are doing in Yemen..cooperation with Israel..what they did in Istanbul embassy show their true face...and I'm not sure hw many people in S.Arabia support their war in Yemen and being Israel wife...just I don't think their people know everything what is happening there

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## skyshadow

T-72B said:


> Sejjil 1 or 2?



the green color means modified Sejjil 2



like_a_boss said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093545513520123904
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093550239821295617
> View attachment 537522

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## Draco.IMF

translated from farsi:

"Given that the size of the Dezful missile is not very different from the Zulfqar missile and since the Revolutionary Guard has announced that its explosive capacity is up to twice that of the Zulfikar missile, *this indicates that the Revolutionary Guard has reached new explosive materials* in the industry "

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## skyshadow



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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> *Khorramshahr_2 ballistic missiles test look at the warhead dive. itttttttttttts greattttttttttttttt
> 
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> *



Moment of impact was amazing! looked like a meteor coming at you. don't want to be anywhere near that when it hits!

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## Bahram Esfandiari

شاھین میزایل said:


> All this will be given to Yemeni terrorists and used against our Saudi brothers



InshAllah!!!

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## Aramagedon

شاھین میزایل said:


> All this will be given to Yemeni terrorists and used against our Saudi brothers


Why aren't you complaining about thousands tonnes of american/british made bombs that saudis dropped on the poorest arab country?

Didn't holy Prophet (PBUH) say Arabs and Ajams are equal, white and black are equal.... So why you see these terrorist people (saudis) who have martyred 11 Shia Imams (PBUT) over other people? Do you have any logical reason? Do you have any point from Quran that these people are better than other people and they can slay other people?

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> video coming soon


 of?


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## yavar

Iran's underground ballistic missile factory with unveiling of Dezful ballistic missile MRBM with a range of 1000 km and 1000KG warhead

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## Hack-Hook

yavar said:


> Iran's underground ballistic missile factory with unveiling of Dezful ballistic missile MRBM with a range of 1000 km and 1000KG warhead



They didn't talked about 1000kg warhead. They were talking about twice destructive power and that can be achieved with different type of explossive or different configuration of the warhead.
And that 300km increase in range can be achieved by different solid fuel or different missile engine or updating the missile software so it use an optimized flight pattern .

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> Iran's underground ballistic missile factory with unveiling of Dezful ballistic missile MRBM with a range of 1000 km and 1000KG warhead


 
1000kg warhead is a little over 2000lbs of explosives (2,204.62lbs)...That is impressive (if true), like really impressive. And given that they say this warhead is 2x powerful than previous ones, idk what they mean exactly but this missile will destroy damn near anything it hits.



Hack-Hook said:


> They didn't talked about 1000kg warhead. They were talking about twice destructive power and that can be achieved with different type of explossive or different configuration of the warhead.
> And that 300km increase in range can be achieved by different solid fuel or different missile engine or updating the missile software so it use an optimized flight pattern .



Then what is Yavar eluding to when he mentions 1000kg? Is that total weight of the missile?

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## Hack-Hook

BlueInGreen2 said:


> 1000kg warhead is a little over 2000lbs of explosives (2,204.62lbs)...That is impressive (if true), like really impressive. And given that they say this warhead is 2x powerful than previous ones, idk what they mean exactly but this missile will destroy damn near anything it hits.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what is Yavar eluding to when he mentions 1000kg? Is that total weight of the missile?


In the video they said twice as destructive power as Zoalfaqar missile and Hagar assumed that they achieved that by just put twice as much as what they previously put inside Fatah missile family inside dezful warhead and I mentioned there is other ways to achieve that as in the video they said the size of the missile is nearly the same as Zoalfaqar .

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow

Iran Dezful ballistic missile 1000Km range, Underground missile plant

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## Draco.IMF

for first time Fateh-110 IMU system. *Using fiber optic gyroscopes

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## PeeD

The primary role of this variant might be time critical point strikes at a north Israel front.
Off-road twin launchers with Dezful missiles can drive close to the Iraqi border, hide and launch on request.
After request is made, the hard, point target would be destroyed within 15 minutes.

The role is different than that of liquids like Qiam, used to knock out large strategic targets like airbases.

The Dezful seems to be the result of a request to get the Fateh family to a level that enables it to strike Israel.

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## Draco.IMF

PeeD said:


> The primary role of this variant might be time critical point strikes at a north Israel front.
> Off-road twin launchers with Dezful missiles can drive close to the Iraqi border, hide and launch on request.
> After request is made, the hard, point target would be destroyed within 15 minutes.
> 
> The role is different than that of liquids like Qiam, used to knock out large strategic targets like airbases.
> 
> The Dezful seems to be the result of a request to get the Fateh family to a level that enables it to strike Israel.



yes, it seems so


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093805941592485888

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## skyshadow

*Dezful warhead*
*



*

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## Aramagedon



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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> According to some people here more than several kilometer and iran actually fired several thousands of them to make on fall in the center of video.
> 
> 
> Looks faster than our previous warheads.



If the CEP was several KM they would have had to fire far more than 1000 to get it to fall where it did! Pass bezar began! All that matters is that the U.S. more likely than not tracked this and now knows and they likely passed that intel off to the Israeli's and maybe even to the Saudi's! 

If this is how accurate Iran's liquid fueled BM's have become then the next logical step for Khorramshahr would be to achieve the same type of accuracy on a 3-4 warhead MIRV because if you can achieve that type of accuracy at those speeds then 750lb RV would be sufficient for most fighter bunkers giving Iran the capability to severally degrade an enemy's Air Force with a few hundred missiles in a relatively short timespan giving Iran an edge over enemies that heavily rely on their Fighter Jets while Iran has had decades of planning and equipment buildup to fight a war without a large fighter fleet. 

Unfortunately Iran's been playing nice for too long and has cornered it's self by signing the NPT and limiting it's BM with nothing to show for it. Basically if Iran is going to get punished for a crime we haven't even committed then we might as well do the crime too. If they wanna punish Iran as if we are mass producing Nuclear ICBM's and bombing and attacking regional states on a regular bases like Saudi Arabia and Israel then we might as well do the crime too! Right now we are doing the time so we might as well do the crime and start a Nuclear weapons program and a ICBM program and give a good lesson to the UAE by wiping out their Air Force, Navy and few of their puppet leaders to show what could happen if all sanctions don't stop and we keep getting punished over absurd claims.

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## PeeD

Albanias capital and the MKO camp is 2000km away from Iran. I would propose to use 20 Khorramshahr-2 against the annual MKO event there as an anti-terror operation. They would need to be shot from 500km away from the border at 2500 max. range to let the booster stage fall within Iran.

This would be a good reaction if Europeans bow to Trump and practically sanction Iran. Albania is not in the EU or NATO but the message would be delivered in a legitimate way. The destruction would be devastating. No risk of shotdown, loss of human life, crash or compromised critical technology.
Only Turkey would have to agree with a overflight. Otherwise only Iranian relations with Greece would probably be at risk due to airspace (outer space better said) violation.

JCPOA/Barjam is for now is too important to leave it.

The European reaction would be quite bad but Iran can use terrorism pretext as defense.

Time to make political capital of this technology.

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## PeeD

TeaAddict said:


> If MEK was still in Iraq I'd advocate a storm of Iranian missiles raining down on their camp but throwing missiles at any European state is really silly.



A Europe that practically sanctions Iran and effectively pulls out of a agreement has no strategic value for Iran.
As for Albania: Their economic situation has forced them to act like that... I feel sorry for them, they could be a strategic ally to Iran and historically related.

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## 925boy

شاھین میزایل said:


> All this will be given to Yemeni terrorists and used against our Saudi brothers


you are in war, so fight and dont make excuses or whine.

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## Aramagedon



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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> Albanias capital and the MKO camp is 2000km away from Iran. I would propose to use 20 Khorramshahr-2 against the annual MKO event there as an anti-terror operation. They would need to be shot from 500km away from the border at 2500 max. range to let the booster stage fall within Iran.
> 
> This would be a good reaction if Europeans bow to Trump and practically sanction Iran. Albania is not in the EU or NATO but the message would be delivered in a legitimate way. The destruction would be devastating. No risk of shotdown, loss of human life, crash or compromised critical technology.
> Only Turkey would have to agree with a overflight. Otherwise only Iranian relations with Greece would probably be at risk due to airspace (outer space better said) violation.
> 
> JCPOA/Barjam is for now is too important to leave it.
> 
> The European reaction would be quite bad but Iran can use terrorism pretext as defense.
> 
> Time to make political capital of this technology.



gave it just little bet more than 5 years and we will be ready to stand against Israel or them.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Albanias capital and the MKO camp is 2000km away from Iran. I would propose to use 20 Khorramshahr-2 against the annual MKO event there as an anti-terror operation. They would need to be shot from 500km away from the border at 2500 max. range to let the booster stage fall within Iran.
> 
> This would be a good reaction if Europeans bow to Trump and practically sanction Iran. Albania is not in the EU or NATO but the message would be delivered in a legitimate way. The destruction would be devastating. No risk of shotdown, loss of human life, crash or compromised critical technology.
> Only Turkey would have to agree with a overflight. Otherwise only Iranian relations with Greece would probably be at risk due to airspace (outer space better said) violation.
> 
> JCPOA/Barjam is for now is too important to leave it.
> 
> The European reaction would be quite bad but Iran can use terrorism pretext as defense.
> 
> Time to make political capital of this technology.



You must be out of your mind.

You want iran to fire missiles into a sovereign country? In Europe? Just as the West is saying that Iran’s missiles are threat to all nations not just the Missile east?

You would be giving the West an early birthday present.

Luckily Iran’s leaders are much more pragmatic in their thinking then you.

Play chess not checkers my friend.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Albanias capital and the MKO camp is 2000km away from Iran. I would propose to use 20 Khorramshahr-2 against the annual MKO event there as an anti-terror operation. They would need to be shot from 500km away from the border at 2500 max. range to let the booster stage fall within Iran.
> 
> This would be a good reaction if Europeans bow to Trump and practically sanction Iran. Albania is not in the EU or NATO but the message would be delivered in a legitimate way. The destruction would be devastating. No risk of shotdown, loss of human life, crash or compromised critical technology.
> Only Turkey would have to agree with a overflight. Otherwise only Iranian relations with Greece would probably be at risk due to airspace (outer space better said) violation.
> 
> JCPOA/Barjam is for now is too important to leave it.
> 
> The European reaction would be quite bad but Iran can use terrorism pretext as defense.
> 
> Time to make political capital of this technology.



Simply put MKO or MEK is simply not worth Iran risking relations with Turkey!!! And I'd much rather do something that would piss off the Saudi's rather than the Turks and there is no reality where the Turks would be OK with 20 tones of Iranian warheads flying well over 1000km over their Air Space.

Plus, I think Iran would be better off building small low cost boats or subs in Syria and launch small LaCm from the sea....

Or a future versions of the Simorgh UCAV doing a pit stop over Syria and heading towards Albania each equipped with 4 or so 250lb upgraded versions of an Iranian SDB

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## VEVAK

Or a New long range LaCm

[


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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> Albanias capital and the MKO camp is 2000km away from Iran. I would propose to use 20 Khorramshahr-2 against the annual MKO event there as an anti-terror operation. They would need to be shot from 500km away from the border at 2500 max. range to let the booster stage fall within Iran.
> 
> This would be a good reaction if Europeans bow to Trump and practically sanction Iran. Albania is not in the EU or NATO but the message would be delivered in a legitimate way. The destruction would be devastating. No risk of shotdown, loss of human life, crash or compromised critical technology.
> Only Turkey would have to agree with a overflight. Otherwise only Iranian relations with Greece would probably be at risk due to airspace (outer space better said) violation.
> 
> JCPOA/Barjam is for now is too important to leave it.
> 
> The European reaction would be quite bad but Iran can use terrorism pretext as defense.
> 
> Time to make political capital of this technology.



Tremendous respect for you PeeD but you've lost me a little bit here chief. Iran targeting MEK meetings in Albania would play PERFECTLY into the hands of the US/Israel and co. I know on paper Albania isn't in the EU or NATO but that doesn't really matter since they'll use Albania as a poster child for Irans "agression" the world over. Basically Iran will have given the US all the evidence it needed to vindicate their claims that Iran is indeed a world menace, one that must be dealt with.

Again, I also believe Iran is well within their right to strike and kill MEK terrorists wherever they may be but within logical reason. If they have camps in Iraq, Syra or maybe even Afghanistan then I can see Iran doing this with little trouble. But Albania is in Europe next to European nations, the message from Iran to Europe will be misconstrued. Although Iran doesn't bear much open hostility for Europe, an attack on Albanian territory will give that impression whether Iran meant it or not.

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## PeeD

In the geo-strategic game you need assets to play.
Iran has lost quite a few assets for now: JCPOA has taken some important assets from Iran, in space, missile and nuclear fields.

America has used the sledgehammer and left Barjam and now Europeans have played the waiting game and brought themselves into a position where they have effectively left Barjam without leaving it officially.

It's time to invest a new asset into a game which could bring the Europeans back to the table. Without it, the Europeans have no slight reason to change the current situation.

You people complaining about this should realize: European strategist have brought themselves into a ideal situation, without a action from Iran, they will simply not react.

Europeans will have no kind of benefit for Iran in the next years if everything remains as is.

- The MKO is listed or was listed as terrorist group in many countries, so they present a ideal target.
- Precision strike capability offers capability of surgical strikes as western counties call it. A surgical strike remains restricted to terrorists, no collateral damage (only the MKO camp)

Iran has to make sure Turkey is not pissed off, Greece/Bulgaria as secondary and the Albanian people would have to understand that the strike is the fault of their government and Iran is friendly to Albanian people.

I admit that the overflight issue is a serious stopper of that idea. The idea of a cruise missile strike, maybe launched by Su-22 inside Iraqi airspace is also a option. A future Khorramshahr with a post-boost glide vehicle is another method for variable fly path.

So let me say as final point: Europeans have done, or about to do the worst they could to Iran. 
Iran can either sit and accept a effective embargo by the Europeans or realizes that such a Europe has no national interest benefit for Iran.

@TheImmortal @BlueInGreen2 

A Europe that puts an unilateral embargo upon Iran against international law has no strategic value for Iran. It is not some kind of holy place. Not useful for national interest = no value. As simple as that.
We need to see where the EU goes but Iran is not Iraq that can be used by westerners as they wish, Iran can react.
But I agree that this idea should be one of the last assets Iran should use to get Europeans back to their own signed JCPOA.
Iran has those weapons exactly for this purposes, thats why they are strategic weapons.

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## raptor22

PeeD said:


> Iran should use to get Europeans back to their own signed JCPOA.


I can assure that thing you mentioned not only wouldn't bring them to their own signed JCPOA but on the contrary would feed bibi & his kind a lot of crap for their propaganda machine against us which consequently lead to more hostile situation in the region ... Instead of bringing them by missile bring your burnt cards back on the table .. JCPOA card ... they wanna see it working then they gotta cooperate & pay for it... no cooperation? ok 5000 centrifuges would be back with the presence of IAEA inspector & set another deadline ..nothing? another 5k ... ... it helps you :
1. It would reverse the cycle of pressure.
2. Your stalling NP would be restarted, your so-called asset.
3. It'd teach them every wrong step from them would not remained unanswered.
4. As side salad You can double your efforts on space program while doing your best to portray it as pure scientific & civil program like live feed of your launches, agriculture & drought, ....​If it bring them to their own signed JCPOA then congrats if not you have nothing to lose while you restarted your NP & SP. your assets.

As far as we proceed on current path nothing would get changed even by nuking the entire Albania and beside don't give credit to these mko terrorists .. they don't deserve it.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> In the geo-strategic game you need assets to play.
> Iran has lost quite a few assets for now: JCPOA has taken some important assets from Iran, in space, missile and nuclear fields.
> 
> America has used the sledgehammer and left Barjam and now Europeans have played the waiting game and brought themselves into a position where they have effectively left Barjam without leaving it officially.
> 
> It's time to invest a new asset into a game which could bring the Europeans back to the table. Without it, the Europeans have no slight reason to change the current situation.
> 
> You people complaining about this should realize: European strategist have brought themselves into a ideal situation, without a action from Iran, they will simply not react.
> 
> Europeans will have no kind of benefit for Iran in the next years if everything remains as is.
> 
> - The MKO is listed or was listed as terrorist group in many countries, so they present a ideal target.
> - Precision strike capability offers capability of surgical strikes as western counties call it. A surgical strike remains restricted to terrorists, no collateral damage (only the MKO camp)
> 
> Iran has to make sure Turkey is not pissed off, Greece/Bulgaria as secondary and the Albanian people would have to understand that the strike is the fault of their government and Iran is friendly to Albanian people.
> 
> I admit that the overflight issue is a serious stopper of that idea. The idea of a cruise missile strike, maybe launched by Su-22 inside Iraqi airspace is also a option. A future Khorramshahr with a post-boost glide vehicle is another method for variable fly path.
> 
> So let me say as final point: Europeans have done, or about to do the worst they could to Iran.
> Iran can either sit and accept a effective embargo by the Europeans or realizes that such a Europe has no national interest benefit for Iran.
> 
> @TheImmortal @BlueInGreen2
> 
> A Europe that puts an unilateral embargo upon Iran against international law has no strategic value for Iran. It is not some kind of holy place. Not useful for national interest = no value. As simple as that.
> We need to see where the EU goes but Iran is not Iraq that can be used by westerners as they wish, Iran can react.
> But I agree that this idea should be one of the last assets Iran should use to get Europeans back to their own signed JCPOA.
> Iran has those weapons exactly for this purposes, thats why they are strategic weapons.



Barjam was the fault of Iran for believing that it could keep the nuclear deal seperate from other regional issues.

Outside of a landmark treaty involving Iran/Israel/US/EU there is zero chance Iran will be left alone as long as it seeks the overthrow of the apartheid government.

Since Iran will NOT negotiate with israel and achieve a peace treaty, then it doesn’t matter how many deals Iran signs it will always end up with the short end of the stick.

Firing missiles and assassinating rivals is not going to get Iran anywhere. It’s like a child throwing a temper tantrum for not getting candy. 

Without a peace treaty with Israel and a damages court tribunal being set up by both sides to calculate the damages inflicted on both sides by the other and reaching some type of monetary compensation then this is all a mute point.

As Rahbar said if it isn’t nuclear program, it will be missile, then it will be space program, then will be cruise missiles, then will support of paramilitary groups, then it will be civil rights, then it will be women’s rights, then it will be for not saying good morning.

If Iran wants to be brought into the international fold then it comes only one way: Peace/arms Treaty with Israel.

Since this is a red line for Iran, Barjam will fail and so will every deal after Barjam. Even when Barjam was in enforce all Iran was doing was getting energy deals and exporting more oil, something it had access to prior to Barjam. So the deal did nothing more than bring Iran to the status quo of 2009.

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## PeeD

We can't break the JCPOA. China and Russia are also signatories.
So centrifuges and restart of the nuclear program is no leverage/asset.

A different leverage asset is needed. Space program, yes. Nuclear propulsion yes.

But if nothing brings them back, showing off a capability that can hold them at risk 24/7 is a good signal. 
Iran can bring them back to the table if the feel the use of BMs in front of their doorsteps, against a target that is legitimate in any sense.
Iran can then negotiate a deal with them capping Irans missile range to 2500km in return for significant economic benefits.
That may sound like another concession but if all their parliaments are at risk they may consider it.

As said: For now they are about to effectively embargo Iran and that's unacceptable for Iran. Iran has means to force them back to the tables.

Bear in mind that this is no aggression against Albania, the target is just a terrorist group on their soil. Iran did this to a toothless Saddam in 1999 and to a friendly Iraq in 2018. No country in the world should think it is possible to host a terrorist group that has thousands of killings on their list, at least not against Iran.

The age and taste of this kind of weapon has not been felt in the world. Iran should give hostile countries a small taste in a legitimate context.
Better yet: Accelerate work on a hypersonic glide vehicle for the Khorromashahr to be able to avoid overflight of Turkey and Greece.
As they say: If your own life is at risk, you act differently.

Many here don't realize that an embargo is a hostile act that can be seen as a direct aggression. Tarof nadarim.

As next step we would not be able to strike the MKO meeting in Paris, they are a nuclear/ICBM power afterall, but that would be the limit, not a pissed-off Europe on Albania.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> We can't break the JCPOA. China and Russia are also signatories.
> So centrifuges and restart of the nuclear program is no leverage/asset.
> 
> A different leverage asset is needed. Space program, yes. Nuclear propulsion yes.
> 
> But if nothing brings them back, showing off a capability that can hold them at risk 24/7 is a good signal.
> Iran can bring them back to the table if the feel the use of BMs in front of their doorsteps, against a target that is legitimate in any sense.
> Iran can then negotiate a deal with them capping Irans missile range to 2500km in return for significant economic benefits.
> That may sound like another concession but if all their parliaments are at risk they may consider it.
> 
> As said: For now they are about to effectively embargo Iran and that's unacceptable for Iran. Iran has means to force them back to the tables.
> 
> Bear in mind that this is no aggression against Albania, the target is just a terrorist group on their soil. Iran did this to a toothless Saddam in 1999 and to a friendly Iraq in 2018. No country in the world should think it is possible to host a terrorist group that has thousands of killings on their list, at least not against Iran.
> 
> The age and taste of this kind of weapon has not been felt in the world. Iran should give hostile countries a small taste in a legitimate context.
> Better yet: Accelerate work on a hypersonic glide vehicle for the Khorromashahr to be able to avoid overflight of Turkey and Greece.
> As they say: If your own life is at risk, you act differently.
> 
> Many here don't realize that an embargo is a hostile act that can be seen as a direct aggression. Tarof nadarim.
> 
> As next step we would not be able to strike the MKO meeting in Paris, they are a nuclear/ICBM power afterall, but that would be the limit, not a pissed-off Europe on Albania.



Flawed thinking. 

Iran has already accepted a self-imposed 2500KM limit on missiles so why would Europe accept that? Iran has already leveraged away that limit. If you wanted to get 2500KM limit, Iran would need to have rapidly developed 8000KM-10,000KM ICBM so that it could give that up in negotiation and the West can say they reduced Iran’s Missile range by 4x.

As of right now the West wants Iran under 500KM likely.

Furthermore, accepting any limit on missile program is simply the first step in disbanding the entire program over time. A Classic Western Tactic.

Iran will not be able to strong arm the West. West is not intimidated military, they went up against Nazi Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union, so iran in comparison is a walk in the park.

Iran’s biggest flaw was not rapidly expanding economically post Revolution. By not being economically important to europe (outside of energy) there was little incentive for Europe to not follow US orders.

If you think that the threat of conventional missiles will deter Europe, you are naive. They have Russian nuclear tipped cruise missiles and BMs aimed at them for Decades. Iranian missiles are firecrackers in comparison.

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> In the geo-strategic game you need assets to play.
> Iran has lost quite a few assets for now: JCPOA has taken some important assets from Iran, in space, missile and nuclear fields.
> 
> America has used the sledgehammer and left Barjam and now Europeans have played the waiting game and brought themselves into a position where they have effectively left Barjam without leaving it officially.
> 
> It's time to invest a new asset into a game which could bring the Europeans back to the table. Without it, the Europeans have no slight reason to change the current situation.
> 
> You people complaining about this should realize: European strategist have brought themselves into a ideal situation, without a action from Iran, they will simply not react.
> 
> Europeans will have no kind of benefit for Iran in the next years if everything remains as is.
> 
> - The MKO is listed or was listed as terrorist group in many countries, so they present a ideal target.
> - Precision strike capability offers capability of surgical strikes as western counties call it. A surgical strike remains restricted to terrorists, no collateral damage (only the MKO camp)
> 
> Iran has to make sure Turkey is not pissed off, Greece/Bulgaria as secondary and the Albanian people would have to understand that the strike is the fault of their government and Iran is friendly to Albanian people.
> 
> I admit that the overflight issue is a serious stopper of that idea. The idea of a cruise missile strike, maybe launched by Su-22 inside Iraqi airspace is also a option. A future Khorramshahr with a post-boost glide vehicle is another method for variable fly path.
> 
> So let me say as final point: Europeans have done, or about to do the worst they could to Iran.
> Iran can either sit and accept a effective embargo by the Europeans or realizes that such a Europe has no national interest benefit for Iran.
> 
> @TheImmortal @BlueInGreen2
> 
> A Europe that puts an unilateral embargo upon Iran against international law has no strategic value for Iran. It is not some kind of holy place. Not useful for national interest = no value. As simple as that.
> We need to see where the EU goes but Iran is not Iraq that can be used by westerners as they wish, Iran can react.
> But I agree that this idea should be one of the last assets Iran should use to get Europeans back to their own signed JCPOA.
> Iran has those weapons exactly for this purposes, thats why they are strategic weapons.



You have a really good point there admittedly. Rock and a hard place sadly....

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Flawed thinking.
> 
> Iran has already accepted a self-imposed 2500KM limit on missiles so why would Europe accept that? Iran has already leveraged away that limit. If you wanted to get 2500KM limit, Iran would need to have rapidly developed 8000KM-10,000KM ICBM so that it could give that up in negotiation and the West can say they reduced Iran’s Missile range by 4x.
> 
> As of right now the West wants Iran under 500KM likely.
> 
> Furthermore, accepting any limit on missile program is simply the first step in disbanding the entire program over time. A Classic Western Tactic.
> 
> Iran will not be able to strong arm the West. West is not intimidated military, they went up against Nazi Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union, so iran in comparison is a walk in the park.
> 
> Iran’s biggest flaw was not rapidly expanding economically post Revolution. By not being economically important to europe (outside of energy) there was little incentive for Europe to not follow US orders.
> 
> If you think that the threat of conventional missiles will deter Europe, you are naive. They have Russian nuclear tipped cruise missiles and BMs aimed at them for Decades. Iranian missiles are firecrackers in comparison.



The 2500km limit is a latent cap, not written on Paper.
Then you underestimate Rahbari: They knew exactly what Barjam was and requested every single detail of it.
JCPOA is a disaster for the west as Trump correctly said. Europeans have realized that too and play a foul game, not breaking the treaty but effectively embargoing Iran. If they go that way, Iran need a leverage to force them out of a illegitimate embargo: The use of a powerful asset is necessary.

Barjam MUST survive, it is the single greatest achievement of Iranian diplomacy in the recent history. You may underestimate Rahbari but if the US and now Europe think that JCPOA is only in favor of Iran, the rings should bell.
Iran has it on paper and China and Russia have also signed it. It is the most essential treaty for Irans strategic future.

So we can't break it via using assets that are forbidden by it.

But the MKO-Khorramshahr scenario is one leverage among others.
Testing of an IRBM for use against Diego Garcia is another leverage. Europeans must be forced out of their current strategy: the waiting game.

Russians are only slightly sanctioned by Europeans because of the threat they represent to Europe.
Iran does not need nuclear weapons, just a few of those 1,5t warheads against symbols of their power/military.

Also let me repeat: In geopolitics, a unilateral embargo can be regarded as a act of aggression, no need for military action. I can't stress that enough.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> The 2500km limit is a latent cap, not written on Paper.
> Then you underestimate Rahbari: They knew exactly what Barjam was and requested every single detail of it.
> JCPOA is a disaster for the west as Trump correctly said. Europeans have realized that too and play a foul game, not breaking the treaty but effectively embargoing Iran. If they go that way, Iran need a leverage to force them out of a illegitimate embargo: The use of a powerful asset is necessary.
> 
> Barjam MUST survive, it is the single greatest achievement of Iranian diplomacy in the recent history. You may underestimate Rahbari but if the US and now Europe think that JCPOA is only in favor of Iran, the rings should bell.
> Iran has it on paper and China and Russia have also signed it. It is the most essential treaty for Irans strategic future.
> 
> So we can't break it via using assets that are forbidden by it.
> 
> But the MKO-Khorramshahr scenario is one leverage among others.
> Testing of an IRBM for use against Diego Garcia is another leverage. Europeans must be forced out of their current strategy: the waiting game.
> 
> Russians are only slightly sanctioned by Europeans because of the threat they represent to Europe.
> Iran does not need nuclear weapons, just a few of those 1,5t warheads against symbols of their power/military.
> 
> Also let me repeat: In geopolitics, a unilateral embargo can be regarded as a act of aggression, no need for military action. I can't stress that enough.



JCPOA was actually a good deal for the West hence why so many in the military/political establishment supported it and even israel supported it. Never had there been an nuclear agreement so strong.

The only reason Trump hated the Deal was because his predecessor Obama agreed to it. Trump doesn’t even know what the deal states. He is a Bafoon Who wants to undue Obama’s achievements. Hence his attempt to destroy Obamacare.

JCPOA was a ploy to trap Iran, like it has now. The US gave up NOTHING! The US 1979 embargo remained, sanctions against Iran’s human rights and missile program remained. Iran gave up fordow, Arak, and thousands of centrifuges to be able to get back to where it was pre 2010! 

All Iran got was able to pump oil and SWIFT access. If you think that was a good deal for Iran, then again you are naive and Vatan foroosh. They took away some benefits that iran already had pre-sanctions and then gave them back.

Rahbar was not optimistic about the deal and he said this deal will fail and the West will not live up to its obligations. But he allowed it due to the consensus among the Iranian people and power brokers in Iran wanting to solve this issue. However, like you they were naive and thought the west can be trusted in good faith.

The West knew that once Iran signed the deal they couldn’t exit too much pressure. So the plan was all along to move the goal posts of what Iran needs to do....just over time. As soon as Iran rejected the first change The West wanted, the US left the deal. Now Iran is stuck in this deal because it doesn’t have the strength to exit it!

Now Iran has given up Fordow, Arak, and thousands of centrifuges FOR NOTHING! Iran is back to where it was prior to signing the deal. Yet you say this deal was a DISASTER for the West?!?! That the deal favors Iran?!!! Are you kidding me?

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> If you think that was a good deal for Iran, then again you are naive and Vatan foroosh.



History will judge. There is another dimension to this and we may talk about it in 10 years.

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## skyshadow



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## Draco.IMF

Very interesting read about last cruise missile HOVEIZEH and some more additional infos
There is another cruise missile in development which can be fired from SU-22
It seems Hoveizeh is a ground breaking development and Iran is now putting a big focus in cruise missile development.
For non -farsi readers, open link in Google Chrome and let translate into english or other laguages

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1397/11/21/1938156/گزارش-تحلیلی-موشک-کروز-هویزه-دستِ-بزنِ-جدید-برای-سپاه-پاسداران

english translated:

*Analytical Report: Cruise Hoyouse Missile; "New Hand" for Guards*

*"Iran's enemies, with the release of Cruise Hawisee, have better and more aware that Iran's ground-breaking cruises are a new problem for them, a new" brawler "whose regional equations will certainly be seriously affected."*

*



*

Defense Department Tasnim - Hussein Dlyryan: Saturday last week, the first ground-based medium-range cruise missiles for Iran with Amir Ali Hajizadeh, commander Brigadier General Hatami defense minister and commander of the Aerospace Force Iranian Revolutionary Guards Islamic Revolution was unveiled.

The cruise missile is called Hoveizeh, and according to the Defense Minister, the missile had a range of 1,350 kilometers and a flight test of 1200 kilometers in range, and the missile managed to hit precisely targeted targets. 

The Ministry of Defense said that the construction and production of Hawiza cruise missiles is an effective step in enhancing the capabilities of the armed forces and the country's deterioration capabilities, saying the missile "long hands" of the Islamic Republic of Iran in the field of missile defense.

The first Iranian cruise missile (produced) can be called the Sommar missile, officially launched in March 2012 as the first Iranian cruise missile, and said that the missile, Supreme Leader Hossein Dehghan, had said: It has distinctive features in comparison with the predecessor in control systems, structures and propulsion, and is one of the proud places that has a very significant effect in improving the country's defense capability.


*



*

*



*

The Somar rocket is a short-range, but similar to the Soviet-era KH-55 cruise missile, but it also has some serious missiles. In the most important part, the Somar cruise missile is 700 kilometers away, but the K-55 missile range is about 3,000 kilometers.

But now Iran has unveiled a missile that has hit 1,350 kilometers and has been able to destroy the target in its recent test. This is Iran's first intermediate-range missile in the field of land cruises, and is considered the best-selling cruise missile in our country.

*Profile of a number of Iranian cruise missiles*

*



*




*Guidence*

Iranian missiles often use multiple guidance, most likely the "Turkam-TERCOM". This kind of guidance is based on a map of the earth's effects, and the missile runs on the basis of the input information to the computer or the flying computer, and with its various tools, it improves its path and improves its accuracy.

At the same time, it is clear that only such guidance is not used for missile navigation, but also from several other guides used to direct the Iranian missiles, including Glonass and INS, as well as the IRGC on cruise missiles Its 1500-kilometer (not yet unpacked ) launch has claimed that it has a wide range of systems, including Gps, Glonass, Tercom, Ins and Dsmac .

*



*

Obviously, Iran has access to detailed maps of land issues and missile guidance capabilities that can steer land-based cruise missiles at distances greater than 1,350 kilometers (Hawaiian cruise missile), although the availability of these equipment is not enough and, as a rule, There should also be other equipment, including new-generation gyroscopes, to precisely target the missile by modifying the route, something Iran is also among its holders.

If Iran did not have access to this possibility and other technologies, it would not have been possible to count on the accuracy of cruise missiles or even its ballistic missile, but it was clear from the Kurdish Party's anti-ISIL missile and anti-terrorist operations, and even tests, that the accuracy of Iranian missiles could be as high as possible. The attention has risen in recent years, and even in some cases we have reached a point.

*

The Importance of Cruise Missiles
*
Perhaps one of the most important issues that makes the importance of using cruise missiles worse is that a significant part of the enemy's defense systems in the region have been in the field of ballistic missiles to counter Iran's aggressive capabilities, but now Iran has actually made a new phase. Which is far more confronted with countering ballistic missiles.

If Hassan Teherani Moghadam and his forces then spent years and years fighting large projects in the field of ballistic missiles, the launch of the Hawzize Earthquake rocket was a big event in Iran, and Iran has essentially laid foot in the field of extraordinary importance, which is surely behind it. , Hassan Tahrir has been another successor and will surely bring in more projects in the field of cruise missiles in the years to come.

The land cruise field is considered to be an extremely sensitive area, and today many of the world's most powerful countries have dominated their offensive power on the basis of the use of these missiles (with cruise operation), because powerful countries have their power in the aggressive field of exploitation The cruise missile power "can be easily understood in several ways and for some reason.

Cruise missiles have been attracted by the powers for many years due to their lower costs associated with ballistic missile production on the one hand, and on the other hand, the components involved in the missile movement towards the target (including flight profiles and firing and guiding processes) Is located. For example, most of the US missile strikes on Iraq and Syria, most of the Zionist regime's attacks on the positions of the Syrian army or the attacks of US coalition forces in Syria have been carried out using their potential.

Cruise missiles are not easily discovered. And when a country uses cruise missile (whether aircraft or terrestrial) in an offensive operation, because of low-level rocket flying and other cruise-related components, many radar systems can not detect an attacker's missile. Of course, the use of a cruise missile is not absolute, and in some attacks rockets have been explored and destroyed. It is clear that using cruise missiles, the accuracy of the impact is far higher.

Cruise Hoveysee missile was unveiled a few days ago, his older brother, Somar, was born, Josie Robin, former director of the Zionist missile program, announced that "I respect the Iranian hat", but now the enemies of Iran are unveiling a new generation Terrestrial cruise missiles have found better and more that the Iranian "ground cruises" means a serious and new problem for them, a new "brawler", which will seriously affect their regional equations.

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## Raghfarm007



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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


>


Pity they didnt show the 4d10 along with the other rocket motors




Heres a pic of the combustion chamber




And heres what the back end of the khorramshahr probably looks like,perhaps with some minor differences ie no aerogrids or dear leaders[lol!]

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## Websorber

*IRGC showcases ballistic missiles on Islamic Revolution anniversary*

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/142396/IRGC-showcases-ballistic-missiles-on-Islamic-Revolution-anniv

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1094993108679516160
Thoughts on this statement? 

@PeeD & Co ?


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## Persian Gulf 1906

Draco.IMF said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1094993108679516160
> Thoughts on this statement?
> 
> @PeeD & Co ?


What a ridiculous statement. 

Khorramshahr-2 is a huge advance, the first successful test of the Khorramshahr (by far the most powerful BM Iran has, signalling key advances made in fuel etc) and with a precision guidance warhead. 

Hoveyzeh is also a huge advance when you consider Soumar had 700km range and had so many problems, finally they fixed the problems and now mastered the technology for a 1300km+ range LACM.

The Simorgh launch failed because of an issue with the third stage, last time it failed because of the second stage, now they fixed that at least and they will launch Simorgh again in Fall time. This shows increased will to advance space programme with more launches, which is very important. Sending a 100kg satellite into LEO with Simorgh by the end of the year would be a big breakthrough in itself too.

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## sanel1412

Well that is idiot statement...I would ask him how he know lunches were unsuccessfull?Iran can tell us what ever they want..we can only tell is new object detecteed in orbit but no one knows what Iran tested......truth is no one knows anything except official story and every lunch in this field is worth like a mountains of gold for development and every lunch by itslef is huge success...even if they didn't put satalite in orbit two lunches will speed up missile,re-entry vehicle and stalite deveopment..why he think west and Israel is screaming about latest lunches and missile tests....I mean,till two days ago no one knows for Dezful with 1000km range...before we saw image of Gama and vostok radars there was not even one rumor about these radars in Iran...same was when RA'AD2 AD system was unveiled..no one even suggest Iran is working on such system,there was some rumors about TOR like system in developemnt but nothing about that...point is we know only what Iran show us..heck every western intelligence prediction was prooved be wrong and everything world know about Iran military development is literary consited of counting what iran show on TV.... till two days He and We didn't know for ,as west call it ,"underground city" for missile production....now imagine what He and we don't know yet ...I know one thing...denying Iran development will not make it disapear..

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## PeeD

Draco.IMF said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1094993108679516160
> Thoughts on this statement?
> 
> @PeeD & Co ?



Trying to attract a response by someone with useful knowledge via a provokative bait

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## Sineva

Draco.IMF said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1094993108679516160
> Thoughts on this statement?
> 
> @PeeD & Co ?


What is he expecting exactly?,an iranian SS18-Satan complete with 20 marvs apiece,or perhaps an SS-N-20 Sturgeon complete with an ssb to launch it from?.Or perhaps JUST an iranian equivalent of the Hwasong 14 or 15 icbm?.
One would think that both the khorammshahr being shown fitted with a terminally guided warhead AND an iranian cruise missile,reengineered from a ch55 and with the range to reach israel,would be a very big deal especially considering how much irans ballistic missile forces frighten them already.
And then of course theres all the rest of the stuff thats still being pulled out of the hat.....literally almost right as we speak ie drone sat com.
Perhaps its just because some of these things ie the khorramshahr and the Hoveyzeh cruise missile were already expected and thus were not really unexpected "big surprises" that came out of literally nowhere like drone sat com for instance.

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## scythian500

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/936136/10-ویژگی-مهم-دزفول-از-بالک-تا-کلاهک-موشک-های-نقطه-زن-ایرانی

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## Sineva

scythian500 said:


> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/936136/10-ویژگی-مهم-دزفول-از-بالک-تا-کلاهک-موشک-های-نقطه-زن-ایرانی


Good article
Heres some of the pics


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## Persian Gulf 1906

scythian500 said:


> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/936136/10-ویژگی-مهم-دزفول-از-بالک-تا-کلاهک-موشک-های-نقطه-زن-ایرانی


The last sentence is my favourite

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## skyshadow

*listen at 3:15*

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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> *listen at 3:15 *


what russian missiles/weapons is she talking about exactly?? s-300? lol


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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> what russian missiles/weapons is she talking about exactly?? s-300? lol





maybe yes or maybe ....


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## Persian Gulf 1906

skyshadow said:


> maybe yes or maybe ....


she is just a news presenter she doesn't have any knowledge, what she said is not serious


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## skyshadow

Persian Gulf 1906 said:


> she is just a news presenter she doesn't have any knowledge, what she said is not serious


well, she said, according to US military officials


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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1096314422254100480

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1096314651250515968


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## Sineva

Interesting report from *zionist source* about irans retrofitting of hezbollahs rockets with precision guidance. 
http://www.bicom.org.uk/analysis/bicom-briefing-hezbollahs-precision-missile-project/

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## TheImmortal

Sineva said:


> Interesting report from *zionist source* about irans retrofitting of hezbollahs rockets with precision guidance.
> http://www.bicom.org.uk/analysis/bicom-briefing-hezbollahs-precision-missile-project/



I stopped reading when I reached right here:

_Hezbollah is estimated to have more than 100,000 missiles, but currently has only between 20 and 200 precision-guided missiles._

I am supposed to believe that in the last 13 years (2006), Iran manages to deliver only 200 precision missiles to HZ?

Lol what a joke that number is

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## TruthHurtz

TheImmortal said:


> I stopped reading when I reached right here:
> 
> _Hezbollah is estimated to have more than 100,000 missiles, but currently has only between 20 and 200 precision-guided missiles._
> 
> I am supposed to believe that in the last 13 years (2006), Iran manages to deliver only 200 precision missiles to HZ?
> 
> Lol what a joke that number is



Judge Judy said it best herself

"if it doesn't make sense, it probably didn't happen"

I'm not sure if that's a misquote but i'm pretty sure she said something along those lines.


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## skyshadow

*range of the Dezful missile on map.*

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## sha ah

Atleast they called it PERSIAN GULF



skyshadow said:


> *listen at 3:15*

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## Bahram Esfandiari

sha ah said:


> Atleast they called it PERSIAN GULF


You should read the comment section if you want a good laugh!

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## sha ah

I'm guessing she got a taste of that Persian Penis & the rest is history. She was really impressed since half of western men are confused about their gender. 



Bahram Esfandiari said:


> You should read the comment section if you want a good laugh!


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## Draco.IMF

*Iran-made missiles uniquely precise in world*

*"The precision of Iranian missiles is unique in the world so that they can hit the targets with the least fault" *said the Chief of Staff of Armed Forces Major-General Mohammad-Hossein Baqeri on Monday.

Speaking at a research institute in the holy city of Qom, the general said that today *Iran’s Korramshahr missile, in its final tests, hits targets as far as 1,300 km away with less than one meter fault which is unprecedented in the world. 
*
http://www.irna.ir/en/News/83214509?platform=hootsuite

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## Arminkh

Draco.IMF said:


> *Iran-made missiles uniquely precise in world*
> 
> *"The precision of Iranian missiles is unique in the world so that they can hit the targets with the least fault" *said the Chief of Staff of Armed Forces Major-General Mohammad-Hossein Baqeri on Monday.
> 
> Speaking at a research institute in the holy city of Qom, the general said that today *Iran’s Korramshahr missile, in its final tests, hits targets as far as 1,300 km away with less than one meter fault which is unprecedented in the world.
> *
> http://www.irna.ir/en/News/83214509?platform=hootsuite


It is unique alright. But I'm wondering if they rely on satellite navigation? If that is the case, they may not be as reliable in the war time. @PeeD , is it possible to achieve such accuracy without relying on satellite guidance?

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## Mr Iran Eye

Arminkh said:


> It is unique alright. But I'm wondering if they rely on satellite navigation? If that is the case, they may not be as reliable in the war time. @PeeD , is it possible to achieve such accuracy without relying on satellite guidance?




Youuu houuu

https://spacewatch.global/2016/11/irans-growing-dependency-on-chinas-beidou-satellite-navigation/

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## TheImmortal

Arminkh said:


> It is unique alright. But I'm wondering if they rely on satellite navigation? If that is the case, they may not be as reliable in the war time. @PeeD , is it possible to achieve such accuracy without relying on satellite guidance?



A missile guidance system can hop from one satellite nav to another (GPS-Beidou-GLONASS) and I’m not sure how fast the US can block them out of GPS as the guidance system only needs a last minute calculation before impact. They can’t block them out of GLONASS or Beidou. Even if Russia/China did I am sure Iran has backdoor cyberwarfare ways to have their warheads access any satellite during a period of war.

I mean how would the satellite know that a Missile warhead Asking for location coordinates vs a car or a persons phone?

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## Sineva

Mr Iran Eye said:


> Youuu houuu
> 
> https://spacewatch.global/2016/11/irans-growing-dependency-on-chinas-beidou-satellite-navigation/


You`ll forgive me if I`m a little dubious about this,as the 2nd paragraph claims that:

"Iran is thought to be interested in acquiring China’s Chengdu J10B 3rd generation fighter jets, as well as Chinese unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), ant-ship cruise missiles, submarines, and perhaps also a license for Iran to manufacture the Chinese MBT 2000 or even the MBT 3000 tank."

Now about the only thing in that list that I could see iran being even remotely interested in might be the j10b,and frankly that would be about it.
Also can any iranians here give any info on Salran or Salran electronic and communication company,because I`ve had no luck with google.


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## Arminkh

TheImmortal said:


> A missile guidance system can hop from one satellite nav to another (GPS-Beidou-GLONASS) and I’m not sure how fast the US can block them out of GPS as the guidance system only needs a last minute calculation before impact. They can’t block them out of GLONASS or Beidou. Even if Russia/China did I am sure Iran has backdoor cyberwarfare ways to have their warheads access any satellite during a period of war.
> 
> I mean how would the satellite know that a Missile warhead Asking for location coordinates vs a car or a persons phone?


The problem is the missile may not know it is being jammed. All they need to do is to fool the GPS or any other navigation system on the missile to think it is in a different location just like what Iran did with RQ170.



Sineva said:


> You`ll forgive me if I`m a little dubious about this,as the 2nd paragraph claims that:
> 
> "Iran is thought to be interested in acquiring China’s Chengdu J10B 3rd generation fighter jets, as well as Chinese unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), ant-ship cruise missiles, submarines, and perhaps also a license for Iran to manufacture the Chinese MBT 2000 or even the MBT 3000 tank."
> 
> Now about the only thing in that list that I could see iran being even remotely interested in might be the j10b,and frankly that would be about it.
> Also can any iranians here give any info on Salran or Salran electronic and communication company,because I`ve had no luck with google.


Sairan stands for Sanaye Electronic Iran (Iran Electronics Industry) it is a defense ministry owned complex that builds out of the electro-optical and telecommunication systems for defense industry. It also used to manufacture cellphones around 2 decades ago.
Here is the information in Persian. You need to use translation. There are bunch of subsidiaries that have their own websites:

https://fa.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/صنایع_الکترونیک_ایران



Mr Iran Eye said:


> Youuu houuu
> 
> https://spacewatch.global/2016/11/irans-growing-dependency-on-chinas-beidou-satellite-navigation/


Yes, but that can be jammed too.

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## Mr Iran Eye

[QUOTE = "Sineva, post: 11186048, member: 190049"] Vous me pardonnerez si je suis un peu dubitative à ce sujet, car le deuxième paragraphe affirme que:

"L’Iran serait intéressé par l’acquisition des avions de combat chinois de troisième génération Chengdu J10B, ainsi que des véhicules aériens sans pilote chinois (UAV), des missiles de croisière ant-navires, des sous-marins et peut-être aussi une licence permettant à l’Iran de fabriquer même le réservoir MBT 3000 ".

Maintenant, à propos de la seule chose dans cette liste qui pourrait intéresser l’iran, c’est le j10b qui pourrait l’intéresser à distance, et franchement, c’est à peu près tout.
Tous les iraniens ici peuvent-ils également donner des informations sur Salran ou sur la société de communications et d’électronique de Salran, car je n’ai pas eu de chance avec Google. [/ QUOTE]

It is for this paragraph that I published this link :

- For example, it is already known that Iranian defence electronics company Salran (((((( signed an agreement )))) in October 2015 with Chinese defence and aerospace companies ((((( to start using BeiDou satellite )))) positioning, navigation, and timing (PNT) equipment on Iranian missiles, UAV’s, and other military capabilities that in turn will improve their accuracy, effectiveness, and lethality. -

Think carefully about this before commenting and the date of 2015 is not trivial. You are asking questions about missile guidance so I give this as an answer..Iran is made much further than you think


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## PeeD

Arminkh said:


> It is unique alright. But I'm wondering if they rely on satellite navigation? If that is the case, they may not be as reliable in the war time. @PeeD , is it possible to achieve such accuracy without relying on satellite guidance?



Well this is a complex issue.
First: Iran is best advised to establish a ground based GPS network that updates the missile once it is outside the atmosphere and not exposed to atmospheric influence. So it would get a last position "fix" after the boost phase while still in Iranian airspace.

Then, during mid-course in space, it could again check position via foreign space based GPS and a advanced astro-navigation system. However here it must have an advanced cross-check algorithm to exclude spoofing. This would be a last fix of the position close to the reentering of atmosphere.

As last step an advanced RLG, FOG/IFOG or even some kind of cost effective mechanical gyroscope based INS would take over guidance of the last 1-2 minutes (re-entry phase to impact). Its also these last 1-2 minutes where the missile gets close to enemy jamming systems and hard-kill methods.
With that system, the missile would correct atmospheric interference of the last phase via its aerodynamic steering system.

Of course this is for a missile like the Khorramshahr, which has no known terminal guidance system. The whole thing becomes simpler from one side if a terminal guidance system is available.

I'm confident that Iran has developed something quite amazing here that is also cost effective. Cheap price is everything here. I hope for a advanced astro-nav + gimballed RLG combo with ground based or sat-based GPS only for a advanced cross-check algorithm. 
However for that, a technological breakthrough is necessary to be cheap enough. 
Alternatively if a pin-point accuracy could somehow have been achieved by a strap-on FOG based INS, it would be cheaper and require another unknown technological breakthrough.
For astro-navigation there is also an unknown technological breakthrough necessary to enable omitting GPS. So the alternative here would be first a ground based GPS that is somewhat fragile to attacks but secure. Or a innovative cross-checking (of all available constellations) sat-GPS "AI" that makes civilian GPS secure and robust enough.

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## Sineva

PeeD said:


> Well this is a complex issue.
> First: Iran is best advised to establish a ground based GPS network that updates the missile once it is outside the atmosphere and not exposed to atmospheric influence. So it would get a last position "fix" after the boost phase while still in Iranian airspace.


Iran unveiled its local positioning system back in 2016
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2016/06/01/1090226/iran-developing-homegrown-alternative-to-gps



Arminkh said:


> Sairan stands for Sanaye Electronic Iran (Iran Electronics Industry) it is a defense ministry owned complex that builds out of the electro-optical and telecommunication systems for defense industry. It also used to manufacture cellphones around 2 decades ago.
> Here is the information in Persian. You need to use translation. There are bunch of subsidiaries that have their own websites:
> 
> https://fa.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/صنایع_الکترونیک_ایران
> 
> 
> .


Thank you,much appreciated.



Mr Iran Eye said:


> [QUOTE = "Sineva, post: 11186048, member: 190049"] Vous me pardonnerez si je suis un peu dubitative à ce sujet, car le deuxième paragraphe affirme que:
> 
> "L’Iran serait intéressé par l’acquisition des avions de combat chinois de troisième génération Chengdu J10B, ainsi que des véhicules aériens sans pilote chinois (UAV), des missiles de croisière ant-navires, des sous-marins et peut-être aussi une licence permettant à l’Iran de fabriquer même le réservoir MBT 3000 ".
> 
> Maintenant, à propos de la seule chose dans cette liste qui pourrait intéresser l’iran, c’est le j10b qui pourrait l’intéresser à distance, et franchement, c’est à peu près tout.
> Tous les iraniens ici peuvent-ils également donner des informations sur Salran ou sur la société de communications et d’électronique de Salran, car je n’ai pas eu de chance avec Google. [/ QUOTE]
> 
> It is for this paragraph that I published this link :
> 
> - For example, it is already known that Iranian defence electronics company Salran (((((( signed an agreement )))) in October 2015 with Chinese defence and aerospace companies ((((( to start using BeiDou satellite )))) positioning, navigation, and timing (PNT) equipment on Iranian missiles, UAV’s, and other military capabilities that in turn will improve their accuracy, effectiveness, and lethality. -
> 
> Think carefully about this before commenting and the date of 2015 is not trivial. You are asking questions about missile guidance so I give this as an answer..Iran is made much further than you think


Yes,I understand that,however I am simply saying that I could find nothing else that backed that claim up and the few other websites that mentioned it simply quoted the same original site,in addition it did not elaborate on what exact systems or technologies were supposedly supplied to iran.Lastly the thing that makes me the most dubious about this entire article is the claim that iran was interested in buying various chinese weapons,which seems very unlikely as iran was [and still is] still subject to an ongoing un arms embargo which completely ruled out most of these weapons,not to mention that iran would be pretty unlikely to be interested in buying things like chinese drones for obvious reasons ie self sufficiency.
Now if anyone has some actual iranian/iranian news sources that independently back up the claims made on that site or better yet go into some detail about the transactions in question then please post a link or better yet a link plus a translation/synopsis of the contents,however until then I will remain justifiably skeptical as I`ve heard these same sorts of claims before in the western media/internet.


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## yavar

only For Iranian Members this forum





















ایران سپاه سردار سلامی: اگر اروپا توطئه موشکی کند به یک جهش استراتژیک روی می‌آوریم
Iran IRGC Gen. Salami: if Europe conspires against our defensive ballistic missiles, we will have to make a strategic jump 4:00







 +++++


*Iran IRGC Gen. Salami: surreptitious Power ایران سپاه سردار سلامی: قدرت پنهان*





*احمد خاتمی: ایران فرمول ساخت بمب اتمی را دارد *
* ۱۰/۰۲/۲۰۱۹ *
*https://fa.euronews.com/2019/02/10/ahmad-khatami-iran-power-nuclear-bomb-missiles*
* ==================*
*conclusion*
*this is for all Iranian members who think Pakistan with tactical Atom bomb and Saudi Arabia with with tactical Atom bomb can really do anything or get way surviving respond*
*and Iranian members who think America just attack Iran and U.S continental mainland be safe and nothing will happen*
*so the judgemnt is up on your self they cant be more clear then that*

this capability been around since long time ago

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> only For Iranian Members this forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ایران سپاه سردار سلامی: اگر اروپا توطئه موشکی کند به یک جهش استراتژیک روی می‌آوریم
> Iran IRGC Gen. Salami: if Europe conspires against our defensive ballistic missiles, we will have to make a strategic jump 4:00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +++++
> 
> 
> *Iran IRGC Gen. Salami: surreptitious Power ایران سپاه سردار سلامی: قدرت پنهان*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *احمد خاتمی: ایران فرمول ساخت بمب اتمی را دارد *
> * ۱۰/۰۲/۲۰۱۹ *
> *https://fa.euronews.com/2019/02/10/ahmad-khatami-iran-power-nuclear-bomb-missiles*
> * ==================*
> *conclusion*
> *this is for all Iranian members who think Pakistan with tactical Atom bomb and Saudi Arabia with with tactical Atom bomb can really do anything or get way surviving respond*
> *and Iranian members who think America just attack Iran and U.S continental mainland be safe and nothing will happen*
> *so the judgemnt is up on your self they cant be more clear then that*



@yavar, brother, Im not Iranian, Im european, but in my heart i stay with Iranians against zionism
so please dont "discriminate" non iranians here 
can you translate for non-farsi speakers also? the farsi letters in the images
and if possible some important words from the generals in the videos?

*" if Europe conspires against our defensive ballistic missiles, we will have to make a strategic jump"
*
could be translatet I think in -> "_If you play with fire we extend the range of the missiles so we cover whole Europe" + _*nuclear capability?*

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> Im not Iranian, "discriminate"


you know i don't. i apologies if you felt that way.
is not easy constantly making content and videos and in same time translating it so my pologies.

yes what Gen Salami said was if the EU start same language like the American and start putting pressure on our missile program will be left with no choice to make jump which he meant extending range


but in reality bring out real stuff and publicies it,
and the say you see ........ this will happen if you think you act clever



Draco.IMF said:


> translate for non-farsi speakers the images


the images says that
quote "even nuclear bomb ( meaning by U.S ) can not harm and take away our strategic force"


the second image says

quote " Range our missiles............?"



Draco.IMF said:


> and if possible some important words from the generals in the videos?


this is my reading of it so i hope people not going to jump up and down i said right or wrong
Gen. Hajizadeh trying to say we have fully capable strategic force which is based on nuclear deterrent and ( this part is exact quotation of Gen words) our weapos are weapos peace (meaning to prevent war ) and we dont athend to use them" end qoute

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## Mithridates

as i know we already have the capability to target europe with khorramshahr conditioned to arm it with single warhead except of 3. about the nukes i think we should change our stance. there are many uses for nukes without jeopardising innocent peoples life like EMPs or small tactical nukes for targeting military bases...
also there are rumors of our rivals already got nukes which if true would make us vulnerable in future


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## skyshadow

*khorramshahr 1-2 missile test*


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Sineva

Saudi makes first down payment on THAAD system.
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/bu...n-payment-for-Saudi-THAAD-missile-system.html

Do you think they`ll get a refund if it doesnt live up to the hype?[LOL!]

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## Sineva

Now heres a very strange one,the us deploys THAAD to israel even though [ON PAPER] israel has some of the claimed strongest abm capabilities in the me region.In addition even more strangely the us is purchasing iron dome for its own use,so why ship THAAD to israel?
Very curious,could this be because of the failures of the israelis davids sling system?.
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2019/03/04/in-first-us-deploys-thaad-anti-missile-system-in-israel/


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## OldTwilight

Sineva said:


> Now heres a very strange one,the us deploys THAAD to israel even though [ON PAPER] israel has some of the claimed strongest abm capabilities in the me region.In addition even more strangely the us is purchasing iron dome for its own use,so why ship THAAD to israel?
> Very curious,could this be because of the failures of the israelis davids sling system?.
> https://www.defensenews.com/land/2019/03/04/in-first-us-deploys-thaad-anti-missile-system-in-israel/



nope , they just want American to be there to drag them in any upcoming war .... 
the system is not as valuable as American officers who operate them ....

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## SubWater

OldTwilight said:


> nope , they just want American to be there to drag them in any upcoming war ....
> the system is not as valuable as American officers who operate them ....


Do you think in next month netanyaboo would attack?
He is losing everything maybe war w/ Iran can save him.


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## OldTwilight

SubWater said:


> Do you think in next month netanyaboo would attack?
> He is losing everything maybe war w/ Iran can save him.



well , if I was them , I would attack Iran while some one like Rouhani and his comrades are in power of Iran government .... 

روحانی می خواد توی سفر به عراق ، درباره ی قرارداد الجزایر صحبت کنه و احتمالا مثل هسته ای ، اروند رود رو هم به باد بده و بیاد ....

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## SubWater

OldTwilight said:


> well , if I was them , I would attack Iran while some one like Rouhani and his comrades are in power of Iran government ....
> 
> روحانی می خواد توی سفر به عراق ، درباره ی قرارداد الجزایر صحبت کنه و احتمالا مثل هسته ای ، اروند رود رو هم به باد بده و بیاد ....


See this post of me
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/isra...-fraud-and-bribes.604798/page-2#post-11250046

I think in the same way
The war with Iran is last option for him to change everything, I expect him to make war and if he miss this opportunely I say he is too stupid to be prime minster of Israel.
They made six day war which was amazing in all area(They destroyed Arabs just in hours). Are they ready to do same thing w/ big surprise attack.

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## Blue In Green

If the progress of the indictment leads to Netanyahu being taken to jail (I guess this would also greatly hinder the war-hawks of Israel from operating the way they've been doing from there on out) then it would be logical to surmise that he would launch a war with Iran given the CONSTANT war-rhetoric he preaches day in day out. His slip of tongue not too long ago about pursuing war with Iran was not some accident, it was an overt message to Iran that Israel is actively seeking a wider conflict. One in which Israel will get SA and US onboard to try and kinetically reduce Irans influence in the region. It is doomed to fail unless Iranians stage a revolution/coup of their own to dislodge the current power structure.

A war with Iran would have to include Hezbollah, certain elements in Syria and Iraq where Iran will be launching missiles from and Iran itself. Now there is no way Israel would take the fight to Iran all by its lonesome that's for certain but with Bolton and Pompeo whispering sweet nothings into Trumps ear, the possibility of the US military getting involved is damn near certain in one form or another. 

Long story short, a hot conflict with Hezbollah and Iran would most certainly divert attention away from Netanyahu's severe crimes and give him the freedom needed to operate the way he's been operating up to now.

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## Kastor

BlueInGreen2 said:


> If the progress of the indictment leads to Netanyahu being taken to jail (I guess this would also greatly hinder the war-hawks of Israel from operating the way they've been doing from there on out) then it would be logical to surmise that he would launch a war with Iran given the CONSTANT war-rhetoric he preaches day in day out. His slip of tongue not too long ago about pursuing war with Iran was not some accident, it was an overt message to Iran that Israel is actively seeking a wider conflict. One in which Israel will get SA and US onboard to try and kinetically reduce Irans influence in the region. It is doomed to fail unless Iranians stage a revolution/coup of their own to dislodge the current power structure.
> 
> A war with Iran would have to include Hezbollah, certain elements in Syria and Iraq where Iran will be launching missiles from and Iran itself. Now there is no way Israel would take the fight to Iran all by its lonesome that's for certain but with Bolton and Pompeo whispering sweet nothings into Trumps ear, the possibility of the US military getting involved is damn near certain in one form or another.
> 
> Long story short, a hot conflict with Hezbollah and Iran would most certainly divert attention away from Netanyahu's severe crimes and give him the freedom needed to operate the way he's been operating up to now.


Nice analysis, your warnings remind me of Col. Wilkerson, he's the only one that gets the M.E. in my opinion, along with the late Zibigniew Brzezinski. That's what's missing in the U.S. govt, too many neophytes with short memories or worse no memories of history.

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## skyshadow

*TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Lieutenant commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) highlighted the rapid advances in Iran’s defense capabilities, saying the country is on the verge of turning into a world power.*

*https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2019/03/07/1963512/irgc-general-iran-becoming-a-world-power*

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## PeeD

So how could a country at the level of Iran become a military world power?

Only way: ICBM

What sense does a expensive ICBM make without a nuclear warhead?

First it must be cheap and secondly it must have pin-point accuracy. Just a latent nuclear capability which Iran will have in a few years (and internationally legitimized), would be a bad justification.

IRGC's Shahroud team should have mastered their ICBM-class solid booster technology and the liquid Semnan team should also have completed their work on a ICBM-class engine.
In the precision field, there seems to be a breakthrough.

If Iran manages to create an affordable ICBM with conventional pin-point strike capability, it could call itself a worldpower even if all the rest of its capabilities are still at regional power level.
I firmly believe it is possible, since the throw weight of a HS-15 like ICBM with high accuracy, could bring the destruction-cost calculation into a economic zone.

Politically the Trump administration could be a ideal pretext to create such a capability without too much international opposition.

Btw. This is no wishful thinking: IMINT and intelligence reports all show that Iran is working on this since quite some time. The only point is: There has been no precission-strike ICBM created ever, not to talk about a affordable one.

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## Arminkh

PeeD said:


> So how could a country at the level of Iran become a military world power?
> 
> Only way: ICBM
> 
> What sense does a expensive ICBM make without a nuclear warhead?
> 
> First it must be cheap and secondly it must have pin-point accuracy. Just a latent nuclear capability which Iran will have in a few years (and internationally legitimized), would be a bad justification.
> 
> IRGC's Shahroud team should have mastered their ICBM-class solid booster technology and the liquid Semnan team should also have completed their work on a ICBM-class engine.
> In the precision field, there seems to be a breakthrough.
> 
> If Iran manages to create an affordable ICBM with conventional pin-point strike capability, it could call itself a worldpower even if all the rest of its capabilities are still at regional power level.
> I firmly believe it is possible, since the throw weight of a HS-15 like ICBM with high accuracy, could bring the destruction-cost calculation into a economic zone.
> 
> Politically the Trump administration could be a ideal pretext to create such a capability without too much international opposition.
> 
> Btw. This is no wishful thinking: IMINT and intelligence reports all show that Iran is working on this since quite some time. The only point is: There has been no precission-strike ICBM created ever, not to talk about a affordable one.



Showing such capacity would turn the Europeans against us. So we may never hear about such capacity until the day it is used.

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## scythian500

BlueInGreen2 said:


> If the progress of the indictment leads to Netanyahu being taken to jail (I guess this would also greatly hinder the war-hawks of Israel from operating the way they've been doing from there on out) then it would be logical to surmise that he would launch a war with Iran given the CONSTANT war-rhetoric he preaches day in day out. His slip of tongue not too long ago about pursuing war with Iran was not some accident, it was an overt message to Iran that Israel is actively seeking a wider conflict. One in which Israel will get SA and US onboard to try and kinetically reduce Irans influence in the region. It is doomed to fail unless Iranians stage a revolution/coup of their own to dislodge the current power structure.
> 
> A war with Iran would have to include Hezbollah, certain elements in Syria and Iraq where Iran will be launching missiles from and Iran itself. Now there is no way Israel would take the fight to Iran all by its lonesome that's for certain but with Bolton and Pompeo whispering sweet nothings into Trumps ear, the possibility of the US military getting involved is damn near certain in one form or another.
> 
> Long story short, a hot conflict with Hezbollah and Iran would most certainly divert attention away from Netanyahu's severe crimes and give him the freedom needed to operate the way he's been operating up to now.


Do you think Netan is the only voice to decide to declare such a war the whole Western hemisphere where avoiding for decades when Iran was much much weaker?



PeeD said:


> So how could a country at the level of Iran become a military world power?
> 
> Only way: ICBM
> 
> What sense does a expensive ICBM make without a nuclear warhead?
> 
> First it must be cheap and secondly it must have pin-point accuracy. Just a latent nuclear capability which Iran will have in a few years (and internationally legitimized), would be a bad justification.
> 
> IRGC's Shahroud team should have mastered their ICBM-class solid booster technology and the liquid Semnan team should also have completed their work on a ICBM-class engine.
> In the precision field, there seems to be a breakthrough.
> 
> If Iran manages to create an affordable ICBM with conventional pin-point strike capability, it could call itself a worldpower even if all the rest of its capabilities are still at regional power level.
> I firmly believe it is possible, since the throw weight of a HS-15 like ICBM with high accuracy, could bring the destruction-cost calculation into a economic zone.
> 
> Politically the Trump administration could be a ideal pretext to create such a capability without too much international opposition.
> 
> Btw. This is no wishful thinking: IMINT and intelligence reports all show that Iran is working on this since quite some time. The only point is: There has been no precission-strike ICBM created ever, not to talk about a affordable one.


Iran would never acquire ICBMs unless three things happen... First an indigenous sat nav system and second when there is no closer than 2000km targets available and when she can design small nuke warheads... Iran went smart when they limited their range to 2000, this will reduce the cost of more international pressure and second when the goal which is having a strong deterrence, could be achieved with 2000km why would Iran bother to go ahead... at least until there is a war on Iran.. What Iran is doing now is announcing that have the capability of ICBM which is true... This is enough assuring... Iran is a big country...but not that big in power and resources to engage the whole world!! YET! I think Iran will continue showing capabilities to built this and that..but keep that way until there is an excuse to go ahead with materializing it... remember %20 enriched U needs only one easy step more to become %95!

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## PeeD

Iran needs to make best use of its conditions:

1: It is not a nuclear power and will only be a latent one in future (see Japan)
2: All other powers able to build a ICBM are nuclear powers (except Japan)
3: War drums from the Trump administration and cancellation of Barjam/JCPOA

A indefensible global strike capability is a central element to being a world military power.

If done in the right way, Iran could attend a status in which it would have such a capability in a legal way.
First: Irans BM arsenal is so large because it can use them in warfare. 
As a non-nuclear power there is no risk of them being tipped with nuclear warheads that would require a nuclear counter attack.
Hence it is essential that Iran remains non-nuclear and at most a latent nuclear power if it wants to use its arsenal.
In practice, the capability this would offer in any kind of a limited conflict would be even higher than e.g the B-2 fleet of the USAF that is and was a important enabler for military intervention.
World powers have such assets such as submarine launched LACM and aircrafts carriers and none of those is as lethal (indefensible) as a conventional ICBM capability.
So we learn that such a capability would be in line with Sardar Salamis statement and what we see via IMINT and intelligence reports.
It must also be understood that such a capability could not be used if Iran would be a nuclear power, at least not without receiving a nuclear counter reaction by nuclear powers that feel threatened (no risk can be accepted in this case).

A global strike capability via a conventional ICBM would be a world first and cause worldwide opposition, but the Trump admin could provide a justification, more so because Iran is already de facto under a international embargo.
Once this capability is attained AND legitimized, it would be a unique capability worldwide. Upgraded with a hypersonic glide vehicle, it could stay the most effective weapon for Iran until the end of the century.
For the Europeans (and Russians and Chinese), Iran could agree to an INF-like limitation of IRBMs: Only MRBMs against regional threats and ICBMs against the U.S.

We have an idea on which the Shahround solid fuel team is working on: a 40-50ton ICBM (excluding a larger SLV). This could have a payload of 1.5 tons and more, depending on technology.
That would be three 500kg warheads.
If we now upscale the cost calculation and assume a Sejil costs $400k, one such ICBM could end up costing 1,5 mio USD. This translates to $500k for a 500kg high velocity payload delivered to intercontinental range.

If this is not feasible cost wise: Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams final project was for something even larger.
Something that would probably be able to deliver a payload of more than 3 tons. 
Together with a Saman based PBV, this would result in at least 6 such 500kg warheads. Here the cost calculation could pay-off.
However such a heavy ICBM would be static, only for silos or mountain bases.
The enemy would be paralyzed by strikes it can't defend against and which it the highest value objects of the country with pin-point precision.
A limited defense would be certainly possible but the numbers Iran would throw, would make it a hopeless endeavor.

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## WinterNights

Let's make something very clear. The Iranian leadership would be the most incompetent leadership if they truly don't believe in having nukes given the number of nuclear threats we face. I understand why it's wise not to overtly declare ourselves nuclear, but I have little doubt that Iran already has some nukes and would make them in larger numbers if needed. They say we don't believe in mass killing weapons, which is moronic because you can use the power of nukes on MILITARY targets and not necessary on civilians. So I don't buy this notion we don't want nukes, it's just an act.

As for ICBM's, the only reason Iran caps it's missile range at 2000km (which is a lie as our missiles have longer range) is because of the EU nations. However as Gen Salami said recently, if the Europeans carry on being funny, Iran will remove this self placed limitation.

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## Sineva

OldTwilight said:


> well , if I was them , I would attack Iran while some one like Rouhani and his comrades are in power of Iran government ....
> 
> روحانی می خواد توی سفر به عراق ، درباره ی قرارداد الجزایر صحبت کنه و احتمالا مثل هسته ای ، اروند رود رو هم به باد بده و بیاد ....


Sadly you`re right.The israelis have sometimes picked very good moments for their sneak attacks on other countries,and in many ways what better time to attack iran than right at the moment when the chumpist regime has managed to blackmail and intimidate much of the world into going along with its anti iran policies,not to mention that you`ve got a government in iran thats willing to virtually bend over backwards for the likes of european zionists like macron and merkel that it considers as "partners" in the worthless jcpoa,even tho they`ve done nothing whatsoever to live up to their obligations,quite the contrary in fact.


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Iran needs to make best use of its conditions:
> 
> 1: It is not a nuclear power and will only be a latent one in future (see Japan)
> 2: All other powers able to build a ICBM are nuclear powers (except Japan)
> 3: War drums from the Trump administration and cancellation of Barjam/JCPOA
> 
> A indefensible global strike capability is a central element to being a world military power.
> 
> If done in the right way, Iran could attend a status in which it would have such a capability in a legal way.
> First: Irans BM arsenal is so large because it can use them in warfare.
> As a non-nuclear power there is no risk of them being tipped with nuclear warheads that would require a nuclear counter attack.
> Hence it is essential that Iran remains non-nuclear and at most a latent nuclear power if it wants to use its arsenal.
> In practice, the capability this would offer in any kind of a limited conflict would be even higher than e.g the B-2 fleet of the USAF that is and was a important enabler for military intervention.
> World powers have such assets such as submarine launched LACM and aircrafts carriers and none of those is as lethal (indefensible) as a conventional ICBM capability.
> So we learn that such a capability would be in line with Sardar Salamis statement and what we see via IMINT and intelligence reports.
> It must also be understood that such a capability could not be used if Iran would be a nuclear power, at least not without receiving a nuclear counter reaction by nuclear powers that feel threatened (no risk can be accepted in this case).
> 
> A global strike capability via a conventional ICBM would be a world first and cause worldwide opposition, but the Trump admin could provide a justification, more so because Iran is already de facto under a international embargo.
> Once this capability is attained AND legitimized, it would be a unique capability worldwide. Upgraded with a hypersonic glide vehicle, it could stay the most effective weapon for Iran until the end of the century.
> For the Europeans (and Russians and Chinese), Iran could agree to an INF-like limitation of IRBMs: Only MRBMs against regional threats and ICBMs against the U.S.
> 
> We have an idea on which the Shahround solid fuel team is working on: a 40-50ton ICBM (excluding a larger SLV). This could have a payload of 1.5 tons and more, depending on technology.
> That would be three 500kg warheads.
> If we now upscale the cost calculation and assume a Sejil costs $400k, one such ICBM could end up costing 1,5 mio USD. This translates to $500k for a 500kg high velocity payload delivered to intercontinental range.
> 
> If this is not feasible cost wise: Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams final project was for something even larger.
> Something that would probably be able to deliver a payload of more than 3 tons.
> Together with a Saman based PBV, this would result in at least 6 such 500kg warheads. Here the cost calculation could pay-off.
> However such a heavy ICBM would be static, only for silos or mountain bases.
> The enemy would be paralyzed by strikes it can't defend against and which it the highest value objects of the country with pin-point precision.
> A limited defense would be certainly possible but the numbers Iran would throw, would make it a hopeless endeavor.



Yes would make sense if the Nuclear Powers who have those weapons today were logical actors that would only retaliate with Nukes if ever attacked with Nukes! 

Now what if Iran is attack and Iran responds with conventional missiles and yet the retaliation to Iran's response is a nuclear attack? What then? 

I'm not saying nukes are a necessity for Iran but worst case and at the very least we need to have the equipment ready at a safe location to build them in a very short timespan so if ever a single nuke drops on Iran we can retaliate in kind in under a week so it never happens again! 

Also if the U.S. continues to equip the Saudi's with nuclear tech that will lead to a Saudi Nuke then we really don't have a choice because Iran simply can't afford to be a none nuclear state that's surrounded by nuclear powers from every side 
I also think mutually assured destruction is a far more prudent and proven tactic! 

The major nuclear powers of the world have air dropped nuclear bombs, cruise missiles armed with nukes, torpedo nukes, Air to Air nukes, nuclear artillery,..... & nuclear powered BM's so if ever U.S. fires cruise missiles at us or deploys bombers against us we wouldn't know if they have nukes on them or not until they hit so why should Iranian BM be any different? 

And I believe the argument that no one would use a none nuclear ICBM were for the day's the accuracy to take out targets with high accuracy didn't exist and that argument will continue to fade as the tech to make the projectiles smaller and more accurate 

If for example a $10 Million USD Iranian ICBM armed with decoys and 10 highly accurate MIRV with a CEP of 10 meters and ability to take out 10 fortified aircraft bunkers up to 10,000km away I'd say that's well worth the cost 
same with a larger diameter $40 Million USD missile carrying 40 conventional MIRV even it it's for targets within 3,000km I would still say it would be well worth it without nukes as long as you have the accuracy to allow you to use larger number of lighter projectiles to take out bunkers and yes compared to a nuke the structural damage and death toll may not be so significant but for Iran the real prize is the military assets not the death toll or structural damage

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## Sineva

PeeD said:


> We have an idea on which the Shahround solid fuel team is working on: a 40-50ton ICBM (excluding a larger SLV). This could have a payload of 1.5 tons and more, depending on technology.
> That would be three 500kg warheads.
> If we now upscale the cost calculation and assume a Sejil costs $400k, one such ICBM could end up costing 1,5 mio USD. This translates to $500k for a 500kg high velocity payload delivered to intercontinental range.
> 
> If this is not feasible cost wise: Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams final project was for something even larger.
> Something that would probably be able to deliver a payload of more than 3 tons.
> Together with a Saman based PBV, this would result in at least 6 such 500kg warheads. Here the cost calculation could pay-off.
> However such a heavy ICBM would be static, only for silos or mountain bases.
> The enemy would be paralyzed by strikes it can't defend against and which it the highest value objects of the country with pin-point precision.
> A limited defense would be certainly possible but the numbers Iran would throw, would make it a hopeless endeavor.



There would be another option to static silo basing,which is extremely vulnerable to preemption unless backed up by a credible 2nd strike capability ie submarines or off road capable tels.
This is rail basing,both the soviet r23/ss24 scalpel and the us mx/peacekeeper solid fueled icbms were intended to use this option or variants of it,the mx would`ve used purpose built underground rail tracks with the ability of the launcher to break thru to the surface and fire at any point.
Both of these weighed around the 100 ton mark which made them very large solid fueled missiles in the heavy weight icbm class.





Ultimately tho,even if iran did develop and deploy a minimum capability nuclear force,iran would still need to have to develop and deploy a credible 2nd strike capability to back it up with.

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## scythian500

VEVAK said:


> The major nuclear powers of the world have air dropped nuclear bombs, cruise missiles armed with nukes, torpedo nukes, Air to Air nukes, nuclear artillery,..... & nuclear powered BM's so if ever U.S. fires cruise missiles at us or deploys bombers against us we wouldn't know if they have nukes on them or not until they hit so why should Iranian BM be any different?


good point


----------



## PeeD

@VEVAK 



VEVAK said:


> Now what if Iran is attack and Iran responds with conventional missiles and yet the retaliation to Iran's response is a nuclear attack? What then?
> 
> I'm not saying nukes are a necessity for Iran but worst case and at the very least we need to have the equipment ready at a safe location to build them in a very short timespan so if ever a single nuke drops on Iran we can retaliate in kind in under a week so it never happens again!



This is the key to this issue: Yes Irans nuclear weapon break-out infrastructure and potential must be nuclear-blast-proof to let this concept work. Furthermore Irans delivery method must be nuclear blast proof or highly survivable (outlined in detail here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran-and-conventional-counter-force.601382/ ).
Plus (and this is what we see Iran is doing): Irans nuclear warhead design should be autonomous and not depended on nuclear isotope based neutron generators or booster gases.

The good news is that points are fullfilled by Iran:
- Nuclear-blast-proof weaponization at mountain facilities in Parchin. Plus the compact Soviet thermonuclear design which the Koreans tested.
- Nuclear-blast-proof Fissile material production at Fordow. Plus a centrifuge generation is coming with a SWU capability that enables fissile material for an *significant* arsenal within days.
- Nuclear reactor independent warhead design: A key requirement since otherwise a underground nuclear reactor would be necessary something a latent nuclear power is not allowed.

Irans leader plus Zarifs capability have got Iran exactly all these key capabilities in a legitimized way.
Japans latent capability is not survivable, Irans will be.

Hence a MAD scenario is created: The high survivability of Irans future strategic potential can't be neutralized with confidence. No confidence of stopping an even limited nuclear retaliation means --> you won't use nukes. MAD mechanism is created.
Iran would be the only country in the world with just a latent nuclear capability but MAD concept applied.

Nuclear safeguards would also confirm that Irans conventional ICBM arsenal is not yet tipped with nuclear warheads --> enabling their global conventional use --> giving Iran a unprecedented global force projection potential --> confirming Salamis statement of a world military power.



VEVAK said:


> Also if the U.S. continues to equip the Saudi's with nuclear tech that will lead to a Saudi Nuke then we really don't have a choice because Iran simply can't afford to be a none nuclear state that's surrounded by nuclear powers from every side



Agreed, the Saudis could become a problem here. However it all depends on China and Pakistan. Plus their fissile weapon designs have no thermonuclear potential.
Iran could reach a conventional power level in which any future Saudi nuclear strike could be taken out pre-preemptiv, even just using conventional means.
We should hope that the U.S/China don't want to create a nuclear proxy against Iran with Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately things go in that direction.



VEVAK said:


> The major nuclear powers of the world have air dropped nuclear bombs, cruise missiles armed with nukes, torpedo nukes, Air to Air nukes, nuclear artillery,..... & nuclear powered BM's so if ever U.S. fires cruise missiles at us or deploys bombers against us we wouldn't know if they have nukes on them or not until they hit so why should Iranian BM be any different?



As mentioned its the IAEA safeguards that will assure that there has been no break-out. This is the insurance for the use of the conventional ICBM arsenal. The U.S won't use nukes because they would be aware of Irans survivable latent nuclear potential --> can't take that retaliation risk.



VEVAK said:


> And I believe the argument that no one would use a none nuclear ICBM were for the day's the accuracy to take out targets with high accuracy didn't exist and that argument will continue to fade as the tech to make the projectiles smaller and more accurate
> 
> If for example a $10 Million USD Iranian ICBM armed with decoys and 10 highly accurate MIRV with a CEP of 10 meters and ability to take out 10 fortified aircraft bunkers up to 10,000km away I'd say that's well worth the cost
> same with a larger diameter $40 Million USD missile carrying 40 conventional MIRV even it it's for targets within 3,000km I would still say it would be well worth it without nukes as long as you have the accuracy to allow you to use larger number of lighter projectiles to take out bunkers and yes compared to a nuke the structural damage and death toll may not be so significant but for Iran the real prize is the military assets not the death toll or structural damage



Yes accuracy was the issue plus the fact that the risk of a thermonuclear tipped RV among those launched. Remember that all powers with ICBMs are automatically also nuclear ones and Iran would be the only safeguarded latent nuclear power.
Maybe in future a yet unknown, widespread used nuclear warhead detection sensor could enable the use of conventional ICBMs for established nuclear powers. Avantgard like hypersonic weapons will make the issue more complicated as they can simply change their attack vector towards another opponent.
Trident D5 had a <90m CEP accuracy, but could never be used conventionally for those reasons.

Cost-wise it is worth it, especially because of cost-efficient and innovative IRGC-ASF design school.
The calculation is clear: Iran has created the Sedjil for <=400k USD, upscale that to a heavy ICBM and you won't go above a 5x or 10x multiplicator.
Then calculate a MRV/MIRV throw weight potential and a arsenal for 2025 or so.

Alone 4 MaRV warheads for each missile and a small arsenal of 100 missiles would mean ~400 critical/high priority targets taken out, at will...

@Sineva 

The survivability requirements for such a latent nuclear arsenal would be enormous. I outlined the benefits Irans missile-city concept brings in this thread: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran-and-conventional-counter-force.601382/

Irans latent capability means that its delivery potential must remain intact against a massive strike of strategic nuclear warheads. Rail basing would not reliably enable this.

It is superior to rail basing but I agree that this is also a good option for heavier ICBMs. Iran can make best use of its rugged topography.


Disclaimer: What I say here are no secrets anymore. Netanyahu and later Trump realized that Irans nuclear deal is engineered to enable exactly this latent nuclear capability. They are perfectly aware about the points I wrote here and that's why Trump had no other option than to leave the deal.
History may remember Zarif as the man who enabled Irans survivable latent nuclear capability that in turn enabled Iran a superpower-level, global force projection capability via conventional ICBMs.
Obama gave Iran that nuclear deal and Trump could be the man that enabled that legitimized (due to threatening) conventional ICBM capability.
Use the "opportunities created by enemy actions" concept.
This is a good display of the amazing capability of Iranian strategic decision making.

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## Sineva

Heres what the eurovassals consider to be a *"Roadmap to pragmatic dialogue on the iranian missile program"*
If anyone thinks that continuing negotiating with the eurovassals is still a good idea after reading this then they must be deluded.
https://www.europeanleadershipnetwo...n-Hinz-ELN-Iran-Missile-Policy-March-2019.pdf

I`d also check out Amirs blog for a good riposte to this so called "pragmatic dialogue" by the eurovassals
https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2019/03/why-iranian-missiles-are-non-negotiable.html

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## Draco.IMF

*TOOPHAN 3M 
*

        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


"Missile Molecule Missile Test # M Model M presented at Baghdad International Defense Exhibition 2011

The ATTAC missile is equipped with an explosion mechanism above the target, which launches a killing-type warhead on target at the top of the target. 

The Hurricane-3 rocket was unveiled in recent years, but the M-model of the missile was unveiled at the Tehran's Mosalla Defense Exhibit last month, and it's unclear exactly what upgrades the missile was running on.

The missile is guided by a command type to the top of the wired wire line.

The purpose of detecting the target is through electromagnetic sensors in the rocket nose. These sensors are sensitive to metal masses, which are in fact the same armored or automotive equipment, and send a bomber command to the bunker when approaching the metal mass.

It also adjusts the rocket altitude through the nose laser sensor."

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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> *TOOPHAN 3M
> *
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> "Missile Molecule Missile Test # M Model M presented at Baghdad International Defense Exhibition 2011
> 
> The ATTAC missile is equipped with an explosion mechanism above the target, which launches a killing-type warhead on target at the top of the target.
> 
> The Hurricane-3 rocket was unveiled in recent years, but the M-model of the missile was unveiled at the Tehran's Mosalla Defense Exhibit last month, and it's unclear exactly what upgrades the missile was running on.
> 
> The missile is guided by a command type to the top of the wired wire line.
> 
> The purpose of detecting the target is through electromagnetic sensors in the rocket nose. These sensors are sensitive to metal masses, which are in fact the same armored or automotive equipment, and send a bomber command to the bunker when approaching the metal mass.
> 
> It also adjusts the rocket altitude through the nose laser sensor."



you just google translate it all the way.

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> you just google translate it all the way.


Yes,you sometimes almost need a translator to translate the translation.

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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> *TOOPHAN 3M
> *
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> "Missile Molecule Missile Test # M Model M presented at Baghdad International Defense Exhibition 2011
> 
> The ATTAC missile is equipped with an explosion mechanism above the target, which launches a killing-type warhead on target at the top of the target.
> 
> The Hurricane-3 rocket was unveiled in recent years, but the M-model of the missile was unveiled at the Tehran's Mosalla Defense Exhibit last month, and it's unclear exactly what upgrades the missile was running on.
> 
> The missile is guided by a command type to the top of the wired wire line.
> 
> The purpose of detecting the target is through electromagnetic sensors in the rocket nose. These sensors are sensitive to metal masses, which are in fact the same armored or automotive equipment, and send a bomber command to the bunker when approaching the metal mass.
> 
> It also adjusts the rocket altitude through the nose laser sensor."






Sineva said:


> Yes,you sometimes almost need a translator to translate the translation.


yes  . the missile was in Baghdad in 2019 not in 2011.


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## skyshadow

whhhhhhhat????


*By reverse-engineering Soviet-era Scud technology, Tehrani-Moghaddam enabled the Guards to develop the largest and most diverse ballistic missile arsenal in the region. It includes the Shahab-1 (based on the Scud-B), the Shahab-3 (based on original Scud-C technology), the Ghadr 110 and its variants, the Emad, the Shahab-4, the Shahab-5 (Kosar), the Shahab-6 (Toqyān), the Fajr-3, the Qiam, the Ashoura, and the Sejjil. They are all capable of carrying nuclear warheads.*
*
https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/irans-ballistic-missile-program/*


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## WinterNights

skyshadow said:


> whhhhhhhat????
> 
> 
> *By reverse-engineering Soviet-era Scud technology, Tehrani-Moghaddam enabled the Guards to develop the largest and most diverse ballistic missile arsenal in the region. It includes the Shahab-1 (based on the Scud-B), the Shahab-3 (based on original Scud-C technology), the Ghadr 110 and its variants, the Emad, the Shahab-4, the Shahab-5 (Kosar), the Shahab-6 (Toqyān), the Fajr-3, the Qiam, the Ashoura, and the Sejjil. They are all capable of carrying nuclear warheads.
> 
> https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/irans-ballistic-missile-program/*



No one who is serious regarding Iran's missiles take clowns like this guy seriously. They create information out of thin air.

This joker has even invented the name of the shahab 5 and 6

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## skyshadow

WinterNights said:


> No one who is serious regarding Iran's missiles take clowns like this guy seriously. They create information out of thin air.
> 
> This joker has even invented the name of the shahab 5 and 6


i loved it when he added *Fajer_3 racket* as an *ballistic missile*  hhhhhhhaaaaa

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## WinterNights

skyshadow said:


> i loved it when he added *Fajer_3 racket* as an *ballistic missile*  hhhhhhhaaaaa


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## skyshadow

man I can not stop laughing. PLZ stop it


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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> whhhhhhhat????
> 
> 
> *By reverse-engineering Soviet-era Scud technology, Tehrani-Moghaddam enabled the Guards to develop the largest and most diverse ballistic missile arsenal in the region. It includes the Shahab-1 (based on the Scud-B), the Shahab-3 (based on original Scud-C technology), the Ghadr 110 and its variants, the Emad, the Shahab-4, the Shahab-5 (Kosar), the Shahab-6 (Toqyān), the Fajr-3, the Qiam, the Ashoura, and the Sejjil. They are all capable of carrying nuclear warheads.
> 
> https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/irans-ballistic-missile-program/*


My favorite was this *"Iran may also concentrate on improving the missiles’ accuracy, which is poor at present"*
Was this written in 2009 or 2019?[lol!]
I do have to laugh at the whole idea of a zionist begin-sadat center tho,is that like a hitler-stalin center for human rights?

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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> My favorite was this *"Iran may also concentrate on improving the missiles’ accuracy, which is poor at present"*
> Was this written in 2009 or 2019?[lol!]
> I do have to laugh at the whole idea of a zionist begin-sadat center tho,is that like a hitler-stalin center for human rights?


2019.  well they feeling the heat. we all know from now on, when wars in the Middle East are over, Iran is just getting stronger every day and they know it too.

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## skyshadow

*looks to me IRAN is going for it *







https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News...working-on-suspicious-nuclear-projects-583284

A senior Iranian security official said on Wednesday that some countries in the region were spending money on "suspicious nuclear projects," *and warned that such threats would force Tehran to revise its defense strategy.*

“Some countries in the region are spending their petro-dollars on suspicious nuclear projects that can endanger the security of the world," Ali Shamkhani, the secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council, was quoted as saying by Fars news agency.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

If Iran doesn't already have them -



skyshadow said:


> *looks to me IRAN is going for it *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News...working-on-suspicious-nuclear-projects-583284
> 
> A senior Iranian security official said on Wednesday that some countries in the region were spending money on "suspicious nuclear projects," and warned that such threats would force Tehran to revise its defense strategy.
> 
> “Some countries in the region are spending their petro-dollars on suspicious nuclear projects that can endanger the security of the world," Ali Shamkhani, the secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council, was quoted as saying by Fars news agency.

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## Aramagedon

A Nice Video:


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## skyshadow

*the quality and quantity of Iranian weapons raises concerns.*

*With an eye on Iran, US to open yet another military base in the Middle East*

The United States clinched a strategic port deal with Oman on Sunday which US officials say will allow the US military better access the Gulf region and reduce the need to send ships through the Strait of Hormuz, a maritime choke point off Iran.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...yet-another-military-base-in-the-middle-east/

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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> *the quality and quantity of Iranian weapons raises concerns.*
> 
> *With an eye on Iran, US to open yet another military base in the Middle East*
> 
> The United States clinched a strategic port deal with Oman on Sunday which US officials say will allow the US military better access the Gulf region and reduce the need to send ships through the Strait of Hormuz, a maritime choke point off Iran.
> 
> https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...yet-another-military-base-in-the-middle-east/


It is actually a strategic retreat. They have given up on the idea of freely navigating their naval units inside the Persian Gulf as they know if war starts none of them will get out in one piece. Now they are sufficing to having a base outside the Persian Gulf. I bet they will reduce the presence of their naval units in Bahrain. Good for Iran.

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## skyshadow

Arminkh said:


> It is actually a strategic retreat. They have given up on the idea of freely navigating their naval units inside the Persian Gulf as they know if war starts none of them will get out in one piece. Now they are sufficing to having a base outside the Persian Gulf. I bet they will reduce the presence of their naval units in Bahrain. Good for Iran.



agreed but we need to see if that happens. but one thing for sure is that Iran must start testing Dezful missile for anti_ship role and anti_ship cruse missiles with longer range than Ghadir so they know that Oman is not safe either.

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## Kastor

skyshadow said:


> agreed but we need to see if that happens. but one thing for sure is that Iran must start testing Dezful missile for anti_ship role and anti_ship cruse missiles with longer range than Ghadir so they know that Oman is not safe either.


Absolutely correct..this is imperative and should have the highest priority.

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## skyshadow



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## Websorber

*Burn Notice from Shahrud*

*https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207035/burn-notice/*

*



*

*



*

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## skyshadow

*" however it appears that the months of February and March were busy for Iran’s solid fuel team. "*

excellent

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## Websorber

*Disappearing Act*

*https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207105/disappearing-act/*

*












*


----------



## raptor22

Websorber said:


> *Disappearing Act*
> 
> *https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1207105/disappearing-act/*
> 
> *
> View attachment 551209
> View attachment 551210
> View attachment 551211
> View attachment 551212
> *


I hope they would never use it again ... should have been abandoned long ago ..


----------



## TheImmortal

raptor22 said:


> I hope they would never use it again ... should have been abandoned long ago ..



What are you talking about that is Semnan launch pad, Iran’s main launch facilities are located there.

Likely means there won’t be any satellite launches for foreseeable future.


----------



## Aramagedon

REAL POWER:

1) Countless Missiles plus countless Underground Missile Cities

2) Secret Nukes ...

3) Fool your enemies

4) No One dare to challenge you and shoot single bullet towards your country

*Long Live IRGC and Artesh ......*

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> What are you talking about that is Semnan launch pad, Iran’s main launch facilities are located there.
> 
> Likely means there won’t be any satellite launches for foreseeable future.


don't think fixing it take more than several day ? It's just some painted sand getting washed away.

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## raptor22

TheImmortal said:


> What are you talking about that is Semnan launch pad, Iran’s main launch facilities are located there.
> 
> Likely means there won’t be any satellite launches for foreseeable future.


Well I don't wanna see anymore Safir launches which circular platform is for that, hope the main launch pad for Simorgh & heavier satellites has remain intact.


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## Aramagedon




----------



## skyshadow

*Israel says intercepted Iranian missile violated UN resolution*

The projectile that was launched into the Golan Heights on 20 January was a "medium-range surface-to-surface missile" that was transferred from Iran to Syria after January 2016, meaning it was a clear violation of Annex B of UN Security Council Resolution 2231, Israel's ambassador to the UN stated in a 4 April letter to the Security Council.

Ambassador Danny Danon did not identify the missile but said *it "flew no less than 60 km" and was equipped with a "precise warhead".*

"The [Security] Council must take responsibility for stopping these activities that continue to jeopardise the safety and security of our region," Danon said in the letter.

https://www.janes.com/article/87847/israel-says-intercepted-iranian-missile-violated-un-resolution

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> *Israel says intercepted Iranian missile violated UN resolution*
> 
> The projectile that was launched into the Golan Heights on 20 January was a "medium-range surface-to-surface missile" that was transferred from Iran to Syria after January 2016, meaning it was a clear violation of Annex B of UN Security Council Resolution 2231, Israel's ambassador to the UN stated in a 4 April letter to the Security Council.
> 
> Ambassador Danny Danon did not identify the missile but said *it "flew no less than 60 km" and was equipped with a "precise warhead".*
> 
> "The [Security] Council must take responsibility for stopping these activities that continue to jeopardise the safety and security of our region," Danon said in the letter.
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/87847/israel-says-intercepted-iranian-missile-violated-un-resolution


i heard that a Hormoz missile was launched to Golan to hit their radars.........an iranian jornalist said it i watched it befor.......but there is no proof to admit or deny it...........

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## skyshadow

DoubleYouSee said:


> i heard that a Hormoz missile was launched to Golan to hit their radars.........an iranian jornalist said it i watched it befor.......but there is no proof to admit or deny it...........


yes, no proof, just rumors


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## mohsen

تهرانی مقدم!
https://www.aparat.com/v/Nw6zy/نفوذی_ها_-_مدیران_نالایق_یا_تحریم
00:21:55

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> تهرانی مقدم!
> https://www.aparat.com/v/Nw6zy/نفوذی_ها_-_مدیران_نالایق_یا_تحریم
> 00:21:55


Well I didn't saw the video but honestly who can make more harm than an Incompetent manager ?


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## mohsen

Hack-Hook said:


> Well I didn't saw the video but honestly who can make more harm than an Incompetent manager ?


Then watch it, one of best speeches by Raefi!

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## Aramagedon

mohsen said:


> Then watch it, one of best speeches by Raefi!


In my opinion mr raefi is one the best speechers in history of Iran and the best young speecher in current history of Iran. May God bless him...

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## aryobarzan

mohsen said:


> Then watch it, one of best speeches by Raefi!


I watch his speeches on You Tube regularly...although he is a bit too much on the religious side for my taste but he sure is : *Informed, fair, analytical and very articulate. *I recommend all who do not know him to watch... some of recommendations suggested by his organization are apparently going through parliament to become law.. (e.g. the need to make voting of members of the parliament public and visible at all times). God bless him who try to make Iranians more informed.

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## Hack-Hook

Rafei have good things to say but sadly he mix it with nonsense somewhere he make a good point and then suddenly he completely ruin the whole speech by saying something irrational or inaccurate .


mohsen said:


> Then watch it, one of best speeches by Raefi!

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Thank you for your lovely aid Saudi Arabia. The iranian people really love and appreciate you so much!!!

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## aryobarzan

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Thank you for your lovely aid Saudi|Arabia. The iranian people really love and appreciate you so much!!!


great videos...payback is sweet..

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## mohsen

small doc about our missiles:
رسام - قسمت ۲ - برنامه سیاسی تاریخی شبکه افق - 01 اردیبهشت 1398

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## skyshadow

*Iran new Qader _ F missile with guided warhead, until the moment when it hits the target.



        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
*

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> *Iran new Qader _ F missile with guided warhead, until the moment when it hits the target.
> 
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> *


falmes prove that it's solid fuel.......if anybody admits or denies ;please explain

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## Hack-Hook

DoubleYouSee said:


> falmes prove that it's solid fuel.......if anybody admits or denies ;please explain


Qadr usually was considered a liquid fuel missile.

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## Navigator

DoubleYouSee said:


> falmes prove that it's solid fuel.......if anybody admits or denies ;please explain



No, it's standart liquid fuel for this family of missiles. Specific orange plume in smoke, etc.
Simply, they are not so clearly visible, as usually, due to filming late in the evening or early in the morning.

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## skyshadow

DoubleYouSee said:


> falmes prove that it's solid fuel.......if anybody admits or denies ;please explain



i have the same question. but to me it looks like the fuel pipe is detached from the missile body at the very last moment so I'm guessing its liquid fuel

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## Aramagedon

skyshadow said:


> *Iran new Qader _ F missile with guided warhead, until the moment when it hits the target.
> 
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> *


It is liquid missile and from Emad family something we can call Emad_2.

This missile is a game changer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emad_(missile)

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## mangekyo

Arminkh said:


> It is actually a strategic retreat. They have given up on the idea of freely navigating their naval units inside the Persian Gulf as they know if war starts none of them will get out in one piece. Now they are sufficing to having a base outside the Persian Gulf. I bet they will reduce the presence of their naval units in Bahrain. Good for Iran.



Please explains our missiles can easily reach Oman. Why is this a strategic retreat ?

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## SubWater

mangekyousharingan said:


> Please explains our missiles can easily reach Oman. Why is this a strategic retreat ?


because they are leaving Persian gulf.
Oman has good sight on Arabian sea, Indian ocean and east Africa coasts.

they need more space to maneuver against Iran.
Persian gulf become to shallow and narrow for them.

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## mangekyo

SubWater said:


> because they are leaving Persian gulf.
> Oman has good sight on Arabian sea, Indian ocean and east Africa coasts.
> 
> they need more space to maneuver against Iran.
> Persian gulf become to shallow and narrow for them.



But they are not leaving. They are just adding one base outside the gulf.

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## PeeD

Technically speaking that new missile is just a upgraded Ghadr/Shahab-3. In fact it is a warhead upgrade that can be applied on existing missiles by just mounting a new re-entry vehicle on it.
This is hence a great upgrade for the arsenal as the missile remains as is.
The missile is launched like a normal Ghadr/Shahab-3.
The difference is that the RV section is feed with the exact target coordinates via a cable connection. The directional allignment is probably done automatically.

Due to the slower speeds of earlier Ghadr/Shahab-3 variants, the thermal stress is a smaller problem than with the Emad/Khorramshahr RV.

In total the Ghadr/Shahab-3 arsenal can now be easily upgraded to point strike missiles, with the rest of the arsenal being submunition variants for areal targets.
It can be expected that all terminally unguided Ghadr/Shahab-3 variants with HE or distance fused frag warheads will be replaced by guided variants. In that way, kill cost-effectiveness is increased significantly.
Maybe oldest Shahab-3 variants can't be upgraded with this RV, but the rest can certainly be.
Variants with comparatively high precision of old guidance can use submunition warheads now, while older guidance packages can use the new warhead.

The threat of Iran's BM arsenal will significantly increase when a sufficient number of these RVs become available.

Btw. It was shown already openly elsewhere a while ago, but I keep quiet about it

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## skyshadow

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram



        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Arminkh

mangekyousharingan said:


> Please explains our missiles can easily reach Oman. Why is this a strategic retreat ?


It is not rational to have two naval bases so close to each other. They are maybe 500 - 600 miles apart. It only means one is going to be abandoned in case of war which is the one in Bahrain. So my prediction is that it is gradually going to be abandoned anyways.

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## DoubleYouSee

Navigator said:


> No, it's standart liquid fuel for this family of missiles. Specific orange plume in smoke, etc.
> Simply, they are not so clearly visible, as usually, due to filming late in the evening or early in the morning.





Arminkh said:


> It is not rational to have two naval bases so close to each other. They are maybe 500 - 600 miles apart. It only means one is going to be abandoned in case of war which is the one in Bahrain. So my prediction is that it is gradually going to be abandoned anyways.


 as far as i know;US wants to move all their naval baises to east of Asia. so the importance of other naval bases is decreasing as time goes by..........even making new naval base is something to complete their presence in arabian see;indian ocean and at the end south china sea(connecting all these seas together as their new patrolling route between west and east of the world)

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## sepasgozar



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## VEVAK

DoubleYouSee said:


> as far as i know;US wants to move all their naval baises to east of Asia. so the importance of other naval bases is decreasing as time goes by..........even making new naval base is something to complete their presence in arabian see;indian ocean and at the end south china sea(connecting all these seas together as their new patrolling route between west and east of the world)



Generalizing naval Bases like that is a bit absurd! Countries build various different types of Naval bases based on their own specific needs and requirements. And the U.S. is already constructing a new Naval base in Oman near Duqm (+500km from Iranian Soil) so by no means is the need for naval bases decreasing and very clearly the U.S. plans on building a Naval base that they can better defend in case of a conflict with Iran in Oman. 

In terms of Iran's needs we are clearly short and we need 1 major Naval base near Chabahar for Iran's Navy and yes the Base is there but it clearly requires a major expansion of the Konarak Naval Base and increase of Air Assets at Konarak Airbase.

Iran's Jask Naval base and Airport also require further expansion and there are also a lot of empty areas between Busher and Bandar Abbas and between Jask and Chabahar that require smaller Naval bases equipped with missile boats, patrol boats & FAC and ability to refuel and provide some support to larger ships

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## mohsen

For the first time, the type of anti ship missiles which Hezbollah used back in 2006 discussed.
Though indirectly and through calling them as Israeli findings:
first one was Korean _made Silkworm _(range extended by Iran to 120km) and the second one was _Kowsar_.

_Rasam_ documentary episode 5:
قسمت ۵ - رسام - 04 اردیبهشت 1398

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> For the first time, the type of anti ship missiles which Hezbollah used back in 2006 discussed.
> Though indirectly and through calling them as Israeli findings:
> first one was Korean _made Silkworm _(range extended by Iran to 120km) and the second one was _Kowsar_.
> 
> _Rasam_ documentary episode 5:
> قسمت ۵ - رسام - 04 اردیبهشت 1398


The damage extent clearly shown kowsar but westerners refused to believe it .

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## skyshadow

*Iran is building 3 new missiles. *

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## Aramagedon

skyshadow said:


> *Iran is building 3 new missiles. *


Do you have any source?

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## SubWater

skyshadow said:


> *Iran is building 3 new missiles. *


give us more info about them.
my prediction:
first missile: is from Fateh family with around 1250 km range.(Solid)
second missile: is from Khoramshar family with more length to extend its range.(liquid)
third missile: new family of missiles with unknown range and fuel

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## yavar

mohsen said:


> For the first time, the type of anti ship missiles which Hezbollah used back in 2006 discussed.
> Though indirectly and through calling them as Israeli findings:
> first one was Korean _made Silkworm _(range extended by Iran to 120km) and the second one was _Kowsar_.
> 
> _Rasam_ documentary episode 5:
> قسمت ۵ - رسام - 04 اردیبهشت 1398

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## skyshadow

Ziggurat “TepeSialk“ said:


> Do you have any source?





SubWater said:


> give us more info about them.
> my prediction:
> first missile: is from Fateh family with around 1250 km range.(Solid)
> second missile: is from Khoramshar family with more length to extend its range.(liquid)
> third missile: new family of missiles with unknown range and fuel



ok. no they are not ballistic missile they are built in army.

http://defapress.ir/fa/news/343587/بهره-گیری-۳-موشک-ضدزره-هواپایه-در-هوانیروز-ارتش











first missile is *Heydar* missile: it is an air to ground missile and its fire and forget type, with a range of more than 8 kilometers and the ability to install a variety of search systems for use in different weather conditions for anti _ armored purposes, ground equipment, and it can be used for hit crowd gathering location as an pin point missile and armor penetration power of it, is one and a half meters.
















second missile is *Ghamar'e bani hashem*: *Ghamar'e bani hashem* missile is an air-to-air missile, and air-to-ground missile with a range of more than 8 kilometers and i can make a luck on its target before and after firing. and it has the ability to install a variety of search systems for use in different weather conditions for anti _ armored purposes, ground equipment, and it can be used for hit crowd gathering location as a pin point missile.


















third missile is *airborne Dehlaviye anti-tank* missile: the missile is the air-to-ground missile with laser guidance and a range of more than 8 kilometers, and it has low weight for anti_armored purposes, it is a pin point missile with a penetration of one meter and twenty centimeters.

The Dehlaviye rocket had previously been ground-based, now its upgraded to be airborne.
















The missiles are now undergoing preliminary tests and will soon be mass-produced and installed on 209 helicopters.

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## PeeD

A cost effectiveness approach by the Artesh SSJ.

Heydar has the goal to create a large calibre fire and forget missile for long ranges. Seeker is from Sadid missiles and the larger calibre enables a penetration power that should be effective against any tank, approaching at 45 degrees and above. Generally the heavy warhead is also effective against soft ground targets. What was shown is a crude mock up.

Ghamar e bani hashem is apparently a modification of the Shahab Sagheb/Crotale ground attack mod. Now it is optimized for its air to ground role instead of ground to air.
Diameter is limited to make it effective against modern tanks but it's range performance of 10km makes it effective to strike point targets.
Likely that old Crotale missiles will be used for it instead of entirely new missiles. Seeker is again from IRGCs Sadid series to increase cost-effectiveness. It is a kind of special purpose weapon for stand-off attacks of high value targets. That all has already been done by the IRGC which used old Sidewinders for this role, giving it a second life.

Dehlaviye/Kornet is the logical and most cost-effective missile here. The existing arsenal is large and the guidance system easy for Iran and already proven. It will replace the TOW while increasing range to 6km from hardly 4km.
The laser beam riding guidance is cheap and there is no AT-6 --- AT-16 series competing with it like in Russia.
So like the TOW ground ATGM and helicopters use a common missile from a common arsenal. Since it is not fire and forget, it would be used against the bulk of targets, instead of the heavier more expensive Heydar. Two Heydars and 8 Dehalviye would be the heavy load for future Cobras.

So here is the conclusion:
Dehlaviye as the better TOW, the lower end of guided missiles: 6km non-fire-and-forget

Heydar as high-end heavy anti armour missile: 8km and fire and forget.

GBH as special purpose stand-off missile for higher value soft ground targets and slow air targets: 10km and fire and forget.

What is missing is a short range laser guided rocket for low-end unarmoured targets. But this might not be cost-effective at this point in time.

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## Mithridates

PeeD said:


> A cost effectiveness approach by the Artesh SSJ.
> 
> Heydar has the goal to create a large calibre fire and forget missile for long ranges. Seeker is from Sadid missiles and the larger calibre enables a penetration power that should be effective against any tank, approaching at 45 degrees and above. Generally the heavy warhead is also effective against soft ground targets. What was shown is a crude mock up.
> 
> Ghamar e bani hashem is apparently a modification of the Shahab Sagheb/Crotale ground attack mod. Now it is optimized for its air to ground role instead of ground to air.
> Diameter is limited to make it effective against modern tanks but it's range performance of 10km makes it effective to strike point targets.
> Likely that old Crotale missiles will be used for it instead of entirely new missiles. Seeker is again from IRGCs Sadid series to increase cost-effectiveness. It is a kind of special purpose weapon for stand-off attacks of high value targets. That all has already been done by the IRGC which used old Sidewinders for this role, giving it a second life.
> 
> Dehlaviye/Kornet is the logical and most cost-effective missile here. The existing arsenal is large and the guidance system easy for Iran and already proven. It will replace the TOW while increasing range to 6km from hardly 4km.
> The laser beam riding guidance is cheap and there is no AT-6 --- AT-16 series competing with it like in Russia.
> So like the TOW ground ATGM and helicopters use a common missile from a common arsenal. Since it is not fire and forget, it would be used against the bulk of targets, instead of the heavier more expensive Heydar. Two Heydars and 8 Dehalviye would be the heavy load for future Cobras.
> 
> So here is the conclusion:
> Dehlaviye as the better TOW, the lower end of guided missiles: 6km non-fire-and-forget
> 
> Heydar as high-end heavy anti armour missile: 8km and fire and forget.
> 
> GBH as special purpose stand-off missile for higher value soft ground targets and slow air targets: 10km and fire and forget.
> 
> What is missing is a short range laser guided rocket for low-end unarmoured targets. But this might not be cost-effective at this point in time.


GBH looks like a sidewinder rather than crotale:
shafaq: derivated crotale missile










GBH:




to me it seems like shafaq speed was not suitable for A2G roles so they moved toward slower missiles.

GBH could be an effective weapon against helicopters and slow planes like A-10.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> A cost effectiveness approach by the Artesh SSJ.
> 
> Heydar has the goal to create a large calibre fire and forget missile for long ranges. Seeker is from Sadid missiles and the larger calibre enables a penetration power that should be effective against any tank, approaching at 45 degrees and above. Generally the heavy warhead is also effective against soft ground targets. What was shown is a crude mock up.
> 
> Ghamar e bani hashem is apparently a modification of the Shahab Sagheb/Crotale ground attack mod. Now it is optimized for its air to ground role instead of ground to air.
> Diameter is limited to make it effective against modern tanks but it's range performance of 10km makes it effective to strike point targets.
> Likely that old Crotale missiles will be used for it instead of entirely new missiles. Seeker is again from IRGCs Sadid series to increase cost-effectiveness. It is a kind of special purpose weapon for stand-off attacks of high value targets. That all has already been done by the IRGC which used old Sidewinders for this role, giving it a second life.
> 
> Dehlaviye/Kornet is the logical and most cost-effective missile here. The existing arsenal is large and the guidance system easy for Iran and already proven. It will replace the TOW while increasing range to 6km from hardly 4km.
> The laser beam riding guidance is cheap and there is no AT-6 --- AT-16 series competing with it like in Russia.
> So like the TOW ground ATGM and helicopters use a common missile from a common arsenal. Since it is not fire and forget, it would be used against the bulk of targets, instead of the heavier more expensive Heydar. Two Heydars and 8 Dehalviye would be the heavy load for future Cobras.
> 
> So here is the conclusion:
> Dehlaviye as the better TOW, the lower end of guided missiles: 6km non-fire-and-forget
> 
> Heydar as high-end heavy anti armour missile: 8km and fire and forget.
> 
> GBH as special purpose stand-off missile for higher value soft ground targets and slow air targets: 10km and fire and forget.
> 
> What is missing is a short range laser guided rocket for low-end unarmoured targets. But this might not be cost-effective at this point in time.



Got to say I'm a bit more skeptical! 
The Haydar doesn't have any visible moving surfaces that I can see for guidance and with that flat nose they'll either need a good size control surfaces for the guidance control or a TVC (which wouldn't make much sense due to cost & added weight) regardless neither of which the missile currently has. (At least not one that I could see to have a PGM capability....) 

Top that off for a missile the size and diameter I believe they should have just gone for a missile powered by Microjet engines preferably one with foldable wings similar to US SDB (For increased glide capability and maneuverability when needed) on a missile with a speed of ~500kph and enough fuel for ~5min flight with a max range of ~50km (effective range of ~40km) & 20-40lb warhead a missile that can be controlled by the co pilot till it gets to within visible lock on range of the target (At least to start with and later improved upon...)

Clearly our Helo's are NOT going to be as good as U.S. Helo's but we have the technology to build weapons for our platforms that are less conventional but can give our guys an edge and keep the limited air assets we have at a safer distance. 

I also believe both the Artesh and the IRGC need to completely remove the use of unguided rockets on all their cobra's.... Even for anti terrorist operations why risk a multi million usd platform getting downed by a RPG or a stinger simply because you wanted to save a few hundred bucks

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## skyshadow

when a *Khalij Fars anti ship ballistic missile* fired it needs to see you in order to target you and you need to detect it before it hits you in order to intercept it so you need to turn your *radars on* at *all* time until interception but at the same time a *Hormuz-1 and -2 the world’s first anti-radiation ballistic missiles *are fired at you, in order to target you Hormuz 1_2 missiles needs your *radars to be on* until it hits you so if you want to neutralize them you need to turn *all* of your *radars off* so that the anti-radiation ballistic missiles can not find you but if you turn all of your radars off how you want to intercept Khalij Fars anti ship ballistic missile that is coming at you at the speed of at least mach 3_4 ? you need your radars on to see it and intercept it but if you do that than what are you going to do with anti-radiation ballistic missile that is coming for you at even grater speed than Khalij Fars anti ship ballistic missile at least mach 5_6? perfect irony.



Khalij Fars anti ship ballistic missile














Hormuz-1 and -2 the world’s first anti-radiation ballistic missiles











https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/sink-carriers-how-iran-could-go-war-against-us-navy-54022

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## PeeD

@Mithridates 

I think in the first step they equipped the Crotale missile with a seeker for A-G capability and now they have modified the control surfaces for improved A-G role performance. The Sidewinder is thinner.

I suspect that the old batch FM-80 from China are now deemed too low quality for use as short range SAM. High-G maneuver would put them at risk of destruction.
Hence they were selected as long range missiles for A-G role, instead of scrapping. A perfect low cost SSJ project and same as IRGC Sidewinders-to-AGM project.



VEVAK said:


> Got to say I'm a bit more skeptical!
> The Haydar doesn't have any visible moving surfaces that I can see for guidance and with that flat nose they'll either need a good size control surfaces for the guidance control or a TVC (which wouldn't make much sense due to cost & added weight) regardless neither of which the missile currently has. (At least not one that I could see to have a PGM capability....)



Sure, the Heydar mock-up looks very early in development. But there is a credible need for a high penetration power Maverick-like tandem HEAT ATGM for use against things like Abrams.
8km is sufficient, optics and detection systems can't go much beyond that on the Cobras.

The GBH missile at 10km range is for a similar scenario as performed by Apaches against Iraq at the start of the Gulf war: Raiding high value assets behind enemy lines and take them out from long distance.
Iran is lucky that its optics are now capable to support such long range missiles at day and night, a key enabler.
Now the non-TOW Corbas must be upgraded first with the Kornet, GBH and later Heydar if ready.

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## Bahram Esfandiari

PeeD said:


> @Mithridates
> 
> I think in the first step they equipped the Crotale missile with a seeker for A-G capability and now they have modified the control surfaces for improved A-G role performance. The Sidewinder is thinner.
> 
> I suspect that the old batch FM-80 from China are now deemed too low quality for use as short range SAM. High-G maneuver would put them at risk of destruction.
> Hence they were selected as long range missiles for A-G role, instead of scrapping. A perfect low cost SSJ project and same as IRGC Sidewinders-to-AGM project.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, the Heydar mock-up looks very early in development. But there is a credible need for a high penetration power Maverick-like tandem HEAT ATGM for use against things like Abrams.
> 8km is sufficient, optics and detection systems can't go much beyond that on the Cobras.
> 
> The GBH missile at 10km range is for a similar scenario as performed by Apaches against Iraq at the start of the Gulf war: Raiding high value assets behind enemy lines and take them out from long distance.
> Iran is lucky that its optics are now capable to support such long range missiles at day and night, a key enabler.
> Now the non-TOW Corbas must be upgraded first with the Kornet, GBH and later Heydar if ready.



IRIAA has had actual battlefield experience with long range missiles when they mounted Maverick missiles on Ah-1J during the Iran-Iraq war. It would make sense for them to develop long range missiles more suitable for the Cobra fleet.

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## skyshadow

*Hellfire missile in size VS Heydar missile in size.*

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## aryobarzan

skyshadow said:


> *Hellfire missile in size VS Heydar missile in size.*


I was thinking...if Heydar has a fire and forget seeker then can it be totally independent of the helo that is carrying it...if the answer is yes then that can practically make any type of helicopter that Iran has and can carry it ( simple hard point and launcher rail) into a gunship..all the helicopter pilot has to do is fly toward the target and with a simple optical device/display Id the target (8 km away) and wait for Heydar to search and lock on the target and then fire (call it Heydar conversion kit).......just a brain fart..lol

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## skyshadow

aryobarzan said:


> I was thinking...if Heydar has a fire and forget seeker then can it be totally independent of the helo that is carrying it...if the answer is yes then that can practically make any type of helicopter that Iran has and can carry it ( simple hard point and launcher rail) into a gunship..all the helicopter pilot has to do is fly toward the target and with a simple optical device/display Id the target (8 km away) and wait for Heydar to search and lock on the target and then fire (call it Heydar conversion kit).......just a brain fart..lol



yes its *fire and forget type*, good points you said there, agreed and its almost twice as big than Hellfire.

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## PeeD

There is one problem with that idea: the seeker sensor is most certainly a uncooled one and has thus only a effective detection range of 2-4km.
For a long range shot, a data-link for lock-on after launch is needed.
What is also necessary is a a sight system that can support identification of targets at 8km, a potent cooled sensor.

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## Bahram Esfandiari

PeeD said:


> There is one problem with that idea: the seeker sensor is most certainly a uncooled one and has thus only a effective detection range of 2-4km.
> For a long range shot, a data-link for lock-on after launch is needed.
> What is also necessary is a a sight system that can support identification of targets at 8km, a potent cooled sensor.



IRIAA is already equipping some of its Bell 214s with FLIR systems that can potentially detect targets at 8-10km.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> There is one problem with that idea: the seeker sensor is most certainly a uncooled one and has thus only a effective detection range of 2-4km.
> For a long range shot, a data-link for lock-on after launch is needed.
> What is also necessary is a a sight system that can support identification of targets at 8km, a potent cooled sensor.



i think in one of the IRGC war games they said our UCAVs selected targets from 8 km away he just said that and moved on.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> @Mithridates
> 
> I think in the first step they equipped the Crotale missile with a seeker for A-G capability and now they have modified the control surfaces for improved A-G role performance. The Sidewinder is thinner.
> 
> I suspect that the old batch FM-80 from China are now deemed too low quality for use as short range SAM. High-G maneuver would put them at risk of destruction.
> Hence they were selected as long range missiles for A-G role, instead of scrapping. A perfect low cost SSJ project and same as IRGC Sidewinders-to-AGM project.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, the Heydar mock-up looks very early in development. But there is a credible need for a high penetration power Maverick-like tandem HEAT ATGM for use against things like Abrams.
> 8km is sufficient, optics and detection systems can't go much beyond that on the Cobras.
> 
> The GBH missile at 10km range is for a similar scenario as performed by Apaches against Iraq at the start of the Gulf war: Raiding high value assets behind enemy lines and take them out from long distance.
> Iran is lucky that its optics are now capable to support such long range missiles at day and night, a key enabler.
> Now the non-TOW Corbas must be upgraded first with the Kornet, GBH and later Heydar if ready.



Of course depending on the altitude of your Helo's, day vs night operations, the type, size & location of your target,... your line of sight fire and forget capability is not going to be any more than ~15km in the best of conditions but cobra's have co-pilots that can pilot a missile using a secure datalink and they can reach a targeted area at twice the speed of what it would take for their Helo to to get to it's targeted location with enough fuel (on the missile) to search for a target and lock on using the missiles own optics plus the sensor data going back to your helo will increase your situational awareness that will further help increase the survivability of our Helo's in high threat areas 

At least in my opinion this is the type of unconventional approach Iran needs to think about adding. Especially in the Artesh Iran needs to move away from normal standards and be far more innovative using the tech we have accessible to us.

Now a bit off topic I have to say if it was up to me and if I had any control over budgeting and command I would have started a production line of 5 different classes of low cost land attack cruise missile by now with production facilities large enough to have a combined max output of 100 missiles per day and I would have also planed for and carried out an overnight attack against the UAE with 10,000 Cruise Missiles on the 1st day (under 250lb warheads) lasting no more than a few hours and targeting UAE Military, Ports, Oil and Gas industry & communications then I would have demanded $100 Billion USD to be paid as restitution for their attempts to meddle in Iran's economy, the arrest of certain individuals in the UAE & transfer of their assets to Iran and if they didn't capitulate within 6 hours I would have fired 1000 cruise missiles a day until they did but this time I would target UAE infrastructure, government, depots, water supplies, financial institutions,.... and if they still didn't capitulate by day 3 I would have targeted their Cities with Ballistic Missiles.... 

The UAE has gone out of it's way to turn it's self into a target and I believe sooner or later Iran will need to teach them a lesson that they won't soon forget and Iran needs to make a good example of them so their friends in Saudi Arabia truly realize what could happen if they keep messing around with a lions tail!

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## PeeD

@VEVAK 

If we create degrees of "tactical", then the Cobra fleet is at a small degree. It means it is useful for immediate battlefield operation, high pace and short ranges.
The concept you lay out was done by the Israelis in the 80's, when there was no UAV revolution.

Any operation that requires the recon- and planning efforts to target something 10km+ away is today best performed by S-191 like UAV assets. Since data-links are always fragile to EW, even lock-on after launch weapons may not be robust enough against advanced adversaries. In such situations, operations of S-191 or long range man-in-the-loop AGMs may not be possible and only a Cobras with Kornets or LOBL Sadids are a effective and efficient option.
Hence I would not try to get too long-ranged with the helicopter fleet, it may be too fragile (data-link) or better options are available (S-191).

As for UAE... sadly an almost ally, North Korea, sold them SCUDs. Irans oil and gas industry can be heavily hit by them.
As for cruise missiles let me say this: I would wish cruise missiles like their Storm shadows would have been sold to them instead of ballistic missiles. Hence the decision for Iran to go for ballistic missiles instead of cruise missiles was and is the right one.
Those SCUDs cause heavy problems for Iran, S-300 like assets are necessary to counter them. S-171/S-191 like assets are needed to neutralize them before launch. A great headache CM's would not have caused, getting intercepted by 3rd Khordad like assets to 95%. Neutralizing the UAE SCUD threat is only possible to maybe 80% and requires much more capable assets.
This is the huge benefit even primitive BMs offer against area targets such as oil refineries and way Iran went for it instead of CMs.
We have the same headache with Saudi DF-21 and -3, just that for those even higher counter assets are necessary.
UAE basically purchased a insurance from North Korea with those SCUDs. It will be eventually countered by Iran but huge effort is necessary.

Building a CM turbofan is quite expensive. Irans BM path has given it sufficient precision for pin-pint attacks today. The only benefit that a CM offers Iran today is forcing enemies to invest in a different (to ABM) counter-technology and the variable attack-path to avoid restricted airspaces for political reasons or to alter the attack vector.

In total the UAE is in a proxy situation. Attacking them is like attacking Saudi Arabia. At the moment both of them can cause too much damage but Iran is working towards neutralizing those capabilities.

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## aryobarzan

VEVAK said:


> Of course depending on the altitude of your Helo's, day vs night operations, the type, size & location of your target,... your line of sight fire and forget capability is not going to be any more than ~15km in the best of conditions but cobra's have co-pilots that can pilot a missile using a secure datalink and they can reach a targeted area at twice the speed of what it would take for their Helo to to get to it's targeted location with enough fuel (on the missile) to search for a target and lock on using the missiles own optics plus the sensor data going back to your helo will increase your situational awareness that will further help increase the survivability of our Helo's in high threat areas
> 
> At least in my opinion this is the type of unconventional approach Iran needs to think about adding. Especially in the Artesh Iran needs to move away from normal standards and be far more innovative using the tech we have accessible to us.
> 
> Now a bit off topic I have to say if it was up to me and if I had any control over budgeting and command I would have started a production line of 5 different classes of low cost land attack cruise missile by now with production facilities large enough to have a combined max output of 100 missiles per day and I would have also planed for and carried out an overnight attack against the UAE with 10,000 Cruise Missiles on the 1st day (under 250lb warheads) lasting no more than a few hours and targeting UAE Military, Ports, Oil and Gas industry & communications then I would have demanded $100 Billion USD to be paid as restitution for their attempts to meddle in Iran's economy, the arrest of certain individuals in the UAE & transfer of their assets to Iran and if they didn't capitulate within 6 hours I would have fired 1000 cruise missiles a day until they did but this time I would target UAE infrastructure, government, depots, water supplies, financial institutions,.... and if they still didn't capitulate by day 3 I would have targeted their Cities with Ballistic Missiles....
> 
> The UAE has gone out of it's way to turn it's self into a target and I believe sooner or later Iran will need to teach them a lesson that they won't soon forget and Iran needs to make a good example of them so their friends in Saudi Arabia truly realize what could happen if they keep messing around with a lions tail!


 Finally a man with some balls to tackle these khaliji arabs....lol...you should run for president...had enough of pussy Rohani.
p.s. I bet after receiving the first batch of CMs they be all running towards SA. Remember kuwaits entire army fled seeing the Iraqis.

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## Mithridates

VEVAK said:


> Of course depending on the altitude of your Helo's, day vs night operations, the type, size & location of your target,... your line of sight fire and forget capability is not going to be any more than ~15km in the best of conditions but cobra's have co-pilots that can pilot a missile using a secure datalink and they can reach a targeted area at twice the speed of what it would take for their Helo to to get to it's targeted location with enough fuel (on the missile) to search for a target and lock on using the missiles own optics plus the sensor data going back to your helo will increase your situational awareness that will further help increase the survivability of our Helo's in high threat areas
> 
> At least in my opinion this is the type of unconventional approach Iran needs to think about adding. Especially in the Artesh Iran needs to move away from normal standards and be far more innovative using the tech we have accessible to us.
> 
> Now a bit off topic I have to say if it was up to me and if I had any control over budgeting and command I would have started a production line of 5 different classes of low cost land attack cruise missile by now with production facilities large enough to have a combined max output of 100 missiles per day and I would have also planed for and carried out an overnight attack against the UAE with 10,000 Cruise Missiles on the 1st day (under 250lb warheads) lasting no more than a few hours and targeting UAE Military, Ports, Oil and Gas industry & communications then I would have demanded $100 Billion USD to be paid as restitution for their attempts to meddle in Iran's economy, the arrest of certain individuals in the UAE & transfer of their assets to Iran and if they didn't capitulate within 6 hours I would have fired 1000 cruise missiles a day until they did but this time I would target UAE infrastructure, government, depots, water supplies, financial institutions,.... and if they still didn't capitulate by day 3 I would have targeted their Cities with Ballistic Missiles....
> 
> The UAE has gone out of it's way to turn it's self into a target and I believe sooner or later Iran will need to teach them a lesson that they won't soon forget and Iran needs to make a good example of them so their friends in Saudi Arabia truly realize what could happen if they keep messing around with a lions tail!


actually i had the same idea with stealthy cruise missiles, i'm wondering why we are not building them?? the latest variant of tomahawk has an RCS of 0.1 sqm it means a patriot system can detect it from 60 km, now imagine if we make something like US JASSM or turkish SOM with an RCS of 0.01 sqm and 900 km/h speed. the patriot system won't see it until it reaches their 35 km. and to increase the damage further we can fly half an squadron of our su-24 loaded with kh-58 anti radiation missiles so even if they turn on their patriots we destroy their air defences in the disguise of cruise missiles swarm.

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## TheImmortal

SCUDs are quite possibly the easiest BMs to intercept and even Patriot missile systems have high success against them as demonstrated by Persian Gulf War I. Furthermore, Houthi’s routinely launching BMs into SA during the war and the success rate of interception by SA has been satisfactory. That plus their poor accuracy makes surviving easy. 

DF’s are more robust and pose a challenge.

Nonetheless, I think Bavar should be able to handle SCUDs and DFs.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> If we create degrees of "tactical", then the Cobra fleet is at a small degree. It means it is useful for immediate battlefield operation, high pace and short ranges.
> The concept you lay out was done by the Israelis in the 80's, when there was no UAV revolution.
> 
> Any operation that requires the recon- and planning efforts to target something 10km+ away is today best performed by S-191 like UAV assets. Since data-links are always fragile to EW, even lock-on after launch weapons may not be robust enough against advanced adversaries. In such situations, operations of S-191 or long range man-in-the-loop AGMs may not be possible and only a Cobras with Kornets or LOBL Sadids are a effective and efficient option.
> Hence I would not try to get too long-ranged with the helicopter fleet, it may be too fragile (data-link) or better options are available (S-191).
> 
> As for UAE... sadly an almost ally, North Korea, sold them SCUDs. Irans oil and gas industry can be heavily hit by them.
> As for cruise missiles let me say this: I would wish cruise missiles like their Storm shadows would have been sold to them instead of ballistic missiles. Hence the decision for Iran to go for ballistic missiles instead of cruise missiles was and is the right one.
> Those SCUDs cause heavy problems for Iran, S-300 like assets are necessary to counter them. S-171/S-191 like assets are needed to neutralize them before launch. A great headache CM's would not have caused, getting intercepted by 3rd Khordad like assets to 95%. Neutralizing the UAE SCUD threat is only possible to maybe 80% and requires much more capable assets.
> This is the huge benefit even primitive BMs offer against area targets such as oil refineries and way Iran went for it instead of CMs.
> We have the same headache with Saudi DF-21 and -3, just that for those even higher counter assets are necessary.
> UAE basically purchased a insurance from North Korea with those SCUDs. It will be eventually countered by Iran but huge effort is necessary.
> 
> Building a CM turbofan is quite expensive. Irans BM path has given it sufficient precision for pin-pint attacks today. The only benefit that a CM offers Iran today is forcing enemies to invest in a different (to ABM) counter-technology and the variable attack-path to avoid restricted airspaces for political reasons or to alter the attack vector.
> 
> In total the UAE is in a proxy situation. Attacking them is like attacking Saudi Arabia. At the moment both of them can cause too much damage but Iran is working towards neutralizing those capabilities.



The reason I would have used Low cost cruise missiles against UAE is not because I think LaCM are better than BM but because 
1. I truly believe that if produced properly and in sufficient numbers Iran could produce low cost versions for up to 700km range at a fraction of the cost of BM and at a fraction of what it would cost to store, fuel, transport & launch them compared to BM
2. UAE is not worth wasting large number of our BM stockpile on.

Clearly a few Fateh and Zolfagars missiles would have to be used for specific targets and to make a point but for most of the barrage I would use LOW COST CM.

And for a target like the UAE Turbofan would be unnecessary (Unless we can build a low cost one powered by a separate low cost BLDC Fan....) and that why I would keep payloads ~100-250lb so a lower cost turbojet would be sufficient.

I would also make it clear to the UAE that if they respond we will switch to BM and quickly widen the type of targets at a much faster pace

As for UAE SCUDS those missile will take time to setup and launch and we would have to have enough UCAV's, UAV's & CM deployed to go after them before they are launched and if the UAE hits any targets with them we will have to make them pay in $$$

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## PeeD

@VEVAK 

Ok so you think a Hoveyzieh-like turbojet LACM would be cheaper then a Zolfaghar, Qiam or Dezful BM and thats why they should be used for that operation.
I'm not so sure about that.

If those BM's use GPS for point strikes, then CMs with much more robust TERCOM guidance would make sense. But if their pin-point level guidance is not dependent on GPS-like systems, you basically force the enemy to pay for countering systems at least at Patriot level.
Saudi Arabia can protect a oil facility with a single Crotale battery against a CM attack, but they need at least a Patriot even against unguided Zelzal-2. Hence the choice of BMs requires a costly to counter by the enemy.

Therefore the strategy to create mach-3+ targets (BMs) for the enemy may pay off an extra cost.
Certainly you are aware that Iran would first try to cripple their ABM systems by a BM DEAD campaign. Once it is degraded, a cost efficient UCAV would follow. So you use high performance high velocity weapons to degrade their defense and once it is below a certain level you start to use cost efficient weapons (even more efficient than IRIAF fighters...).

In the mix of high performance land attack weapons systems, CMs should make just 10% of the mix with 90% being BMs.

As for SCUDs: It is easier said than done to find and destroy them before launch. This requires huge sensor and strike capabilities. The entire allied force in 1991 was not able to do that effectively against Iraqi SCUDs.
Iran will try to get there with its UAV program, more so to counter Saudi Arabian BM threats. But a robust capability is still away.

The whole Bavar-373, its predecessors and its future variants were/are primary made to counter enemy BMs.



TheImmortal said:


> SCUDs are quite possibly the easiest BMs to intercept and even Patriot missile systems have high success against them as demonstrated by Persian Gulf War I. Furthermore, Houthi’s routinely launching BMs into SA during the war and the success rate of interception by SA has been satisfactory. That plus their poor accuracy makes surviving easy.
> 
> DF’s are more robust and pose a challenge.
> 
> Nonetheless, I think Bavar should be able to handle SCUDs and DFs.



It's never easy and Patriots able to do that are extremely expensive and complex systems. That 1950's vintage system effectively overcame the quite new Patriot in 1991. This just tells us what kind of challenge that is.
Houthi Qiam variants already defeated 2000's updated PAC-3 Patriots, forcing them to launch 6-9 interceptors against that single Qiam (with each single interceptor being significantly more expansive than a Qiam...).
Hence even if you have a effective ABM system, you may soon loose on the economic, quantity side...

Bavar is a huge endeavor and a key technological system. Will it be sufficiency cost efficient to counter enemy BMs? Can sufficient numbers be acquired to protect key areas and counter potential numbers of enemy BMs?
A SCUD system is no F-16 with Storm shadow. You can't cripple the airbase and runway to stop its useage.

Iran would try to neutralize SCUD related targets in the first seconds and use its drones to detect and destroy them at later stage. But even 10 SCUDs launched against the Bandar Abbas oil refinery and not intercepted by B-373 would create a massive loss of money.

The Patriot can't effectively handle the DF-21 even right now. So B-373 to countering them effectively may give you a feeling of what huge technological task this represents.
The DF-21 and Jericho threat is a huge issue for Iran. The IRGC made huge efforts in the 2000's to protect Tehran against those threats. A friction of that effort was done to counter CMs, by creating just 4 automated ZSU-23-2 in front of important objects...
Imagine how difficult it is to create a ABM system which can launch 2 interceptors against a DF-21 for a 80%+ combined PK while still being significantly less expensive than that DF-21. These are the kind of goals such systems must achieve.

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## Sineva

Mithridates said:


> actually i had the same idea with stealthy cruise missiles, i'm wondering why we are not building them?? the latest variant of tomahawk has an RCS of 0.1 sqm it means a patriot system can detect it from 60 km, now imagine if we make something like US JASSM or turkish SOM with an RCS of 0.01 sqm and 900 km/h speed. the patriot system won't see it until it reaches their 35 km. and to increase the damage further we can fly half an squadron of our su-24 loaded with kh-58 anti radiation missiles so even if they turn on their patriots we destroy their air defences in the disguise of cruise missiles swarm.


Agreed,the first step in this should be the eventual redesign of the soumar/hoveyzeh cruise missile to incorporate a "beluga" syle chined nose along with the relocation of the engine into the airframe with a flush recessed air intake.It would be possible just to incorporate a chined nose and radar inlet blocker into the current soumar/hoveyzeh design as a first step.









You can see the chined "beluga" nose and flush mounted recessed intake in the latest tomahawk variant.
The advantage of this sort of improvements is that they potentially could be retrofitted to irans antiship cruise missile force as well.

Ultimately tho iran will need to go for a more modern lo observable type of airframe design,at least for its long range land attack cruise missiles and their multi service variants.These will probably want to look something like the agm-129,agm-158,taurus kepd 350,storm shadow or at least incorporate many of their features.

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> If we create degrees of "tactical", then the Cobra fleet is at a small degree. It means it is useful for immediate battlefield operation, high pace and short ranges.
> The concept you lay out was done by the Israelis in the 80's, when there was no UAV revolution.
> 
> Any operation that requires the recon- and planning efforts to target something 10km+ away is today best performed by S-191 like UAV assets. Since data-links are always fragile to EW, even lock-on after launch weapons may not be robust enough against advanced adversaries. In such situations, operations of S-191 or long range man-in-the-loop AGMs may not be possible and only a Cobras with Kornets or LOBL Sadids are a effective and efficient option.
> Hence I would not try to get too long-ranged with the helicopter fleet, it may be too fragile (data-link) or better options are available (S-191).
> 
> As for UAE... sadly an almost ally, North Korea, sold them SCUDs. Irans oil and gas industry can be heavily hit by them.
> As for cruise missiles let me say this: I would wish cruise missiles like their Storm shadows would have been sold to them instead of ballistic missiles. Hence the decision for Iran to go for ballistic missiles instead of cruise missiles was and is the right one.
> Those SCUDs cause heavy problems for Iran, S-300 like assets are necessary to counter them. S-171/S-191 like assets are needed to neutralize them before launch. A great headache CM's would not have caused, getting intercepted by 3rd Khordad like assets to 95%. Neutralizing the UAE SCUD threat is only possible to maybe 80% and requires much more capable assets.
> This is the huge benefit even primitive BMs offer against area targets such as oil refineries and way Iran went for it instead of CMs.
> We have the same headache with Saudi DF-21 and -3, just that for those even higher counter assets are necessary.
> UAE basically purchased a insurance from North Korea with those SCUDs. It will be eventually countered by Iran but huge effort is necessary.
> 
> Building a CM turbofan is quite expensive. Irans BM path has given it sufficient precision for pin-pint attacks today. The only benefit that a CM offers Iran today is forcing enemies to invest in a different (to ABM) counter-technology and the variable attack-path to avoid restricted airspaces for political reasons or to alter the attack vector.
> 
> In total the UAE is in a proxy situation. Attacking them is like attacking Saudi Arabia. At the moment both of them can cause too much damage but Iran is working towards neutralizing those capabilities.



Luckily the UAE can't target our main oil facilities in Khuzestan or Kharg island. You mentioned Bandar Abbas - for sure the refinery there is of huge importance, but I would think they would be focusing more on the naval base, which is harder to hit with Scuds. But you're right that we have to protect Bandar Abbas better. Presently it lacks an S-300 battery.

Unfortunately it seems to me that Iran hasn't put as much importance as it needs to on our oil facilities - Khuzestan has no high-level air defences. As far as I can see, it's just a single Hawk battery.



PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> Ok so you think a Hoveyzieh-like turbojet LACM would be cheaper then a Zolfaghar, Qiam or Dezful BM and thats why they should be used for that operation.
> I'm not so sure about that.
> 
> If those BM's use GPS for point strikes, then CMs with much more robust TERCOM guidance would make sense. But if their pin-point level guidance is not dependent on GPS-like systems, you basically force the enemy to pay for countering systems at least at Patriot level.
> Saudi Arabia can protect a oil facility with a single Crotale battery against a CM attack, but they need at least a Patriot even against unguided Zelzal-2. Hence the choice of BMs requires a costly to counter by the enemy.
> 
> Therefore the strategy to create mach-3+ targets (BMs) for the enemy may pay off an extra cost.
> Certainly you are aware that Iran would first try to cripple their ABM systems by a BM DEAD campaign. Once it is degraded, a cost efficient UCAV would follow. So you use high performance high velocity weapons to degrade their defense and once it is below a certain level you start to use cost efficient weapons (even more efficient than IRIAF fighters...).
> 
> In the mix of high performance land attack weapons systems, CMs should make just 10% of the mix with 90% being BMs.
> 
> As for SCUDs: It is easier said than done to find and destroy them before launch. This requires huge sensor and strike capabilities. The entire allied force in 1991 was not able to do that effectively against Iraqi SCUDs.
> Iran will try to get there with its UAV program, more so to counter Saudi Arabian BM threats. But a robust capability is still away.
> 
> The whole Bavar-373, its predecessors and its future variants were/are primary made to counter enemy BMs.
> 
> 
> 
> It's never easy and Patriots able to do that are extremely expensive and complex systems. That 1950's vintage system effectively overcame the quite new Patriot in 1991. This just tells us what kind of challenge that is.
> Houthi Qiam variants already defeated 2000's updated PAC-3 Patriots, forcing them to launch 6-9 interceptors against that single Qiam (with each single interceptor being significantly more expansive than a Qiam...).
> Hence even if you have a effective ABM system, you may soon loose on the economic, quantity side...
> 
> Bavar is a huge endeavor and a key technological system. Will it be sufficiency cost efficient to counter enemy BMs? Can sufficient numbers be acquired to protect key areas and counter potential numbers of enemy BMs?
> A SCUD system is no F-16 with Storm shadow. You can't cripple the airbase and runway to stop its useage.
> 
> Iran would try to neutralize SCUD related targets in the first seconds and use its drones to detect and destroy them at later stage. But even 10 SCUDs launched against the Bandar Abbas oil refinery and not intercepted by B-373 would create a massive loss of money.
> 
> The Patriot can't effectively handle the DF-21 even right now. So B-373 to countering them effectively may give you a feeling of what huge technological task this represents.
> The DF-21 and Jericho threat is a huge issue for Iran. The IRGC made huge efforts in the 2000's to protect Tehran against those threats. A friction of that effort was done to counter CMs, by creating just 4 automated ZSU-23-2 in front of important objects...
> Imagine how difficult it is to create a ABM system which can launch 2 interceptors against a DF-21 for a 80%+ combined PK while still being significantly less expensive than that DF-21. These are the kind of goals such systems must achieve.



Unfortunately we are in a situation where trying to win by forcing the enemy to *pay for* high-level systems is futile. The Saudis have a bottomless pit of oil money that they are very willing to spend on everything from Patriots (both PAC-2 and PAC-3) up to the THAAD. We have to win with technology, (beating their countermeasures) and numbers (overwhelming their countermeasures). This is why a short, sharp war favours Iran - in a war of attrition, the Saudis could be resupplied by the US much the same way Saddam was resupplied.

I would say you shoudn't dismiss LACMs so easily. While the UAE has some Pantsirs, the best the Saudis have is a very limited number of Crotales, with not enough capability and nowhere near enough numbers to cover all their strategic sites. Of course, they could strength this in future, but you should note that even advanced systems like the Pantsir can be thwarted. We need a mix to force them to stretch their defences thin. Probably more than just 10%, considering that LACMs are quite cheap and can be used in numbers.

As for the Saudi and Israeli MRBMs - we can't do much against the Jerichos... only 1 needs to get through. But for the Saudis, we definitely need to invest in S-300VM in the future.

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## Mithridates

guys what if we make a mach 5 cruise missile out of fakour missile??


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## aryobarzan

you guys are using too much brain power on what these savages can do....Hit their water desalination plants in the first few hours and they be all running around with empty water tanks in their white skirts...
On the serious side..I saw interview of an Arab TV channel with a saudi military officer and he said it himself ..."If Iranians destroy our water desalination plants the conflict is over"..so I leave it there.

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## PeeD

AmirPatriot said:


> Luckily the UAE can't target our main oil facilities in Khuzestan or Kharg island. You mentioned Bandar Abbas - for sure the refinery there is of huge importance, but I would think they would be focusing more on the naval base, which is harder to hit with Scuds. But you're right that we have to protect Bandar Abbas better. Presently it lacks an S-300 battery.



In a counter value scenario you basically hold enemy high value targets at risk. NK made SCUDs of UAE hold Persian gulf star refinery at risk. It is a concentrated area target in which almost any hit of SCUD-B precision would cause massive financial and infrastructural loss. Hence don't expect UAE to use their limited amount on a naval base hoping to hit something.



AmirPatriot said:


> Unfortunately it seems to me that Iran hasn't put as much importance as it needs to on our oil facilities - Khuzestan has no high-level air defences. As far as I can see, it's just a single Hawk battery.



Don't expect to find many future static SAM sites except for a system like B-373. One can imagine the presence of up to date mobile system in this high risk border regions, most importantly the 3rd Khordad.



AmirPatriot said:


> Unfortunately we are in a situation where trying to win by forcing the enemy to *pay for* high-level systems is futile. The Saudis have a bottomless pit of oil money that they are very willing to spend on everything from Patriots (both PAC-2 and PAC-3) up to the THAAD. We have to win with technology, (beating their countermeasures) and numbers (overwhelming their countermeasures). This is why a short, sharp war favours Iran - in a war of attrition, the Saudis could be resupplied by the US much the same way Saddam was resupplied.



Correct, that's why I just want those 10% CMs to stretch their resources. Any pressure as small as it may be adds to the overall.



AmirPatriot said:


> We need a mix to force them to stretch their defences thin. Probably more than just 10%, considering that LACMs are quite cheap and can be used in numbers.



I'm confident that the price of the Fateh family is quite low. If I would have to select between a Toloue turbojet Hoveyzieh and a Zolfaghar, I would certainly take the Zolfaghar.
The point is that overall system quality control for a 700km range CM is still high (= high costs), a different league than for the Noor/Ghadir AshM. I doubt that a Hoveyzieh could be produced much cheaper than a Zolfaghar.

I'm certainly no friend of CMs in days of precission strike BMs as explained above. They still play a important role due to the INF treaty. Otherwise Russians and Americans would have gone for BMs. 

@Mithridates 

Too high dynamic pressure and propulsion is not sustained.

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## Mithridates

PeeD said:


> Too high dynamic pressure and propulsion is not sustained.


but if we manage to do so that would be a hell of a weapon. can't we use solid metals in the nose of missile and enlarge it to overcome pressure strikes and instability?? i'm sure we can modify the fakour flight profile and make a deadly cruise missile of it just matter of several years of R&D or even less. to me it worth it to try.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> Ok so you think a Hoveyzieh-like turbojet LACM would be cheaper then a Zolfaghar, Qiam or Dezful BM and thats why they should be used for that operation.
> I'm not so sure about that.
> 
> If those BM's use GPS for point strikes, then CMs with much more robust TERCOM guidance would make sense. But if their pin-point level guidance is not dependent on GPS-like systems, you basically force the enemy to pay for countering systems at least at Patriot level.
> Saudi Arabia can protect a oil facility with a single Crotale battery against a CM attack, but they need at least a Patriot even against unguided Zelzal-2. Hence the choice of BMs requires a costly to counter by the enemy.
> 
> Therefore the strategy to create mach-3+ targets (BMs) for the enemy may pay off an extra cost.
> Certainly you are aware that Iran would first try to cripple their ABM systems by a BM DEAD campaign. Once it is degraded, a cost efficient UCAV would follow. So you use high performance high velocity weapons to degrade their defense and once it is below a certain level you start to use cost efficient weapons (even more efficient than IRIAF fighters...).
> 
> In the mix of high performance land attack weapons systems, CMs should make just 10% of the mix with 90% being BMs.
> 
> As for SCUDs: It is easier said than done to find and destroy them before launch. This requires huge sensor and strike capabilities. The entire allied force in 1991 was not able to do that effectively against Iraqi SCUDs.
> Iran will try to get there with its UAV program, more so to counter Saudi Arabian BM threats. But a robust capability is still away.
> 
> The whole Bavar-373, its predecessors and its future variants were/are primary made to counter enemy BMs.
> 
> 
> 
> It's never easy and Patriots able to do that are extremely expensive and complex systems. That 1950's vintage system effectively overcame the quite new Patriot in 1991. This just tells us what kind of challenge that is.
> Houthi Qiam variants already defeated 2000's updated PAC-3 Patriots, forcing them to launch 6-9 interceptors against that single Qiam (with each single interceptor being significantly more expansive than a Qiam...).
> Hence even if you have a effective ABM system, you may soon loose on the economic, quantity side...
> 
> Bavar is a huge endeavor and a key technological system. Will it be sufficiency cost efficient to counter enemy BMs? Can sufficient numbers be acquired to protect key areas and counter potential numbers of enemy BMs?
> A SCUD system is no F-16 with Storm shadow. You can't cripple the airbase and runway to stop its useage.
> 
> Iran would try to neutralize SCUD related targets in the first seconds and use its drones to detect and destroy them at later stage. But even 10 SCUDs launched against the Bandar Abbas oil refinery and not intercepted by B-373 would create a massive loss of money.
> 
> The Patriot can't effectively handle the DF-21 even right now. So B-373 to countering them effectively may give you a feeling of what huge technological task this represents.
> The DF-21 and Jericho threat is a huge issue for Iran. The IRGC made huge efforts in the 2000's to protect Tehran against those threats. A friction of that effort was done to counter CMs, by creating just 4 automated ZSU-23-2 in front of important objects...
> Imagine how difficult it is to create a ABM system which can launch 2 interceptors against a DF-21 for a 80%+ combined PK while still being significantly less expensive than that DF-21. These are the kind of goals such systems must achieve.



For those worried about SCUDs

“The longer answer is this: the Patriot system is a good missile defense system and has been proven in combat. Since the Saudi-Iranian proxy war in Yemen broke out in 2015, Saudi and UAE Patriot missile defenses have intercepted at least 52 incoming missiles through Nov. 14, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Patriot manufacturer Raytheon claims the actual number of intercepts is much higher: more than 100.“

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/12/did-saudis-shoot-down-houthi-missile/144451/

Amount of SCUDS in UAE possession: 

“The UAE possesses a small number of Scud-B ballistic missiles, with a range of 300km and payload capacity of 1,000kg, which it purchased from North Korea in the late 1980s. [40] A declassified U.S. national intelligence estimate from 1991 asserted that North Korea sold the UAE 18-24 Scud-B missiles in 1988. [41] Others believe the UAE purchased 25 Scud-B missiles from North Korea in 1989. [42]”

https://www.nti.org/learn/countries/united-arab-emirates/


So I am sorry @PeeD, your fears are unjustified in the sense that UAE has likely less than 30 SCUDs and Saudi Arabia has somewhere between 400-700 DF-3s (SCUD like) and less than 100 DF-21.

I wouldn’t worry about their BM capability but rather their airforce as they can inflict ALOT more damage on oil refineries and fields with their 500+ fighters than their BMs.

Lastly, even Israel managed to intercept a Iranian rocket over Golan, so your pessisim against simple trajectory BMs with non manuervable and non decoy warheads is bit unwarranted.

In any case it’s tough to see how Iran manages to protect their oil fields. Hence why if SA or UAE dare to cross that line, they will suffer much more than Iran. 

SA pumps 10+ million barrels a day. Even a 30-50% reduction will wreck havoc on world economics much more than Iran going from 3.5 million to 1 million. Most of Iran’s oil is domestic consumption given current oil sanctions.

Iran with cyberwarfare and BMs and sabatoge can significantly reduce SA oil production thus causing immense harm to the kingdom and the world.

Iran’s focus should be increasing the density of their air systems per area. The S-300 order was not sufficient given the size of Iran. Iran should also order S-500 to complement Bavar. 

Iran’s Air defense systems need to be so dense in numbers that even if 30% of systems get taken out during first month(s) of war, it would still have one of the densiest Air defense envelopes in the world.

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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> For those worried about SCUDs
> 
> “The longer answer is this: the Patriot system is a good missile defense system and has been proven in combat. Since the Saudi-Iranian proxy war in Yemen broke out in 2015, Saudi and UAE Patriot missile defenses have intercepted at least 52 incoming missiles through Nov. 14, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Patriot manufacturer Raytheon claims the actual number of intercepts is much higher: more than 100.“
> 
> https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/12/did-saudis-shoot-down-houthi-missile/144451/
> 
> Amount of SCUDS in UAE possession:
> 
> “The UAE possesses a small number of Scud-B ballistic missiles, with a range of 300km and payload capacity of 1,000kg, which it purchased from North Korea in the late 1980s. [40] A declassified U.S. national intelligence estimate from 1991 asserted that North Korea sold the UAE 18-24 Scud-B missiles in 1988. [41] Others believe the UAE purchased 25 Scud-B missiles from North Korea in 1989. [42]”
> 
> https://www.nti.org/learn/countries/united-arab-emirates/
> 
> 
> So I am sorry @PeeD, your fears are unjustified in the sense that UAE has likely less than 30 SCUDs and Saudi Arabia has somewhere between 400-700 DF-3s (SCUD like) and less than 100 DF-21.
> 
> I wouldn’t worry about their BM capability but rather their airforce as they can inflict ALOT more damage on oil refineries and fields with their 500+ fighters than their BMs.
> 
> Lastly, even Israel managed to intercept a Iranian rocket over Golan, so your pessisim against simple trajectory BMs with non manuervable and non decoy warheads is bit unwarranted.
> 
> In any case it’s tough to see how Iran manages to protect their oil fields. Hence why if SA or UAE dare to cross that line, they will suffer much more than Iran.
> 
> SA pumps 10+ million barrels a day. Even a 30-50% reduction will wreck havoc on world economics much more than Iran going from 3.5 million to 1 million. Most of Iran’s oil is domestic consumption given current oil sanctions.
> 
> Iran with cyberwarfare and BMs and sabatoge can significantly reduce SA oil production thus causing immense harm to the kingdom and the world.
> 
> Iran’s focus should be increasing the density of their air systems per area. The S-300 order was not sufficient given the size of Iran. Iran should also order S-500 to complement Bavar.
> 
> Iran’s Air defense systems need to be so dense in numbers that even if 30% of systems get taken out during first month(s) of war, it would still have one of the densiest Air defense envelopes in the world.


iran has much more cards to play, s-191 and 171 drones, our subs, 55th and 65th airborne brigades, iranians in UAE, our helicopter fleet, our su-24 fleet, f-4s with stand of munitions and our f-14s. and i didn't even mentioned IRGC important assets.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> @VEVAK
> 
> Ok so you think a Hoveyzieh-like turbojet LACM would be cheaper then a Zolfaghar, Qiam or Dezful BM and thats why they should be used for that operation.
> I'm not so sure about that.
> 
> If those BM's use GPS for point strikes, then CMs with much more robust TERCOM guidance would make sense. But if their pin-point level guidance is not dependent on GPS-like systems, you basically force the enemy to pay for countering systems at least at Patriot level.
> Saudi Arabia can protect a oil facility with a single Crotale battery against a CM attack, but they need at least a Patriot even against unguided Zelzal-2. Hence the choice of BMs requires a costly to counter by the enemy.
> 
> Therefore the strategy to create mach-3+ targets (BMs) for the enemy may pay off an extra cost.
> Certainly you are aware that Iran would first try to cripple their ABM systems by a BM DEAD campaign. Once it is degraded, a cost efficient UCAV would follow. So you use high performance high velocity weapons to degrade their defense and once it is below a certain level you start to use cost efficient weapons (even more efficient than IRIAF fighters...).
> 
> In the mix of high performance land attack weapons systems, CMs should make just 10% of the mix with 90% being BMs.
> 
> As for SCUDs: It is easier said than done to find and destroy them before launch. This requires huge sensor and strike capabilities. The entire allied force in 1991 was not able to do that effectively against Iraqi SCUDs.
> Iran will try to get there with its UAV program, more so to counter Saudi Arabian BM threats. But a robust capability is still away.
> 
> The whole Bavar-373, its predecessors and its future variants were/are primary made to counter enemy BMs.
> 
> 
> 
> It's never easy and Patriots able to do that are extremely expensive and complex systems. That 1950's vintage system effectively overcame the quite new Patriot in 1991. This just tells us what kind of challenge that is.
> Houthi Qiam variants already defeated 2000's updated PAC-3 Patriots, forcing them to launch 6-9 interceptors against that single Qiam (with each single interceptor being significantly more expansive than a Qiam...).
> Hence even if you have a effective ABM system, you may soon loose on the economic, quantity side...
> 
> Bavar is a huge endeavor and a key technological system. Will it be sufficiency cost efficient to counter enemy BMs? Can sufficient numbers be acquired to protect key areas and counter potential numbers of enemy BMs?
> A SCUD system is no F-16 with Storm shadow. You can't cripple the airbase and runway to stop its useage.
> 
> Iran would try to neutralize SCUD related targets in the first seconds and use its drones to detect and destroy them at later stage. But even 10 SCUDs launched against the Bandar Abbas oil refinery and not intercepted by B-373 would create a massive loss of money.
> 
> The Patriot can't effectively handle the DF-21 even right now. So B-373 to countering them effectively may give you a feeling of what huge technological task this represents.
> The DF-21 and Jericho threat is a huge issue for Iran. The IRGC made huge efforts in the 2000's to protect Tehran against those threats. A friction of that effort was done to counter CMs, by creating just 4 automated ZSU-23-2 in front of important objects...
> Imagine how difficult it is to create a ABM system which can launch 2 interceptors against a DF-21 for a 80%+ combined PK while still being significantly less expensive than that DF-21. These are the kind of goals such systems must achieve.



No I don't consider the Howvaizeh or Somar as a low cost LACM solution! They both carry +700lb payloads and have overpriced engines and airframes hell I wouldn't even consider the Karrar as a low cost solution I'm talking about a large barrage of cruise missiles closer to an improved Ya-Ali Class

As for guidance Iran needs to stop looking at standard solutions.... A smart domestic land base positioning solution can be designed to guide the missiles during initial launch phase & ~10 min during initial flight on top of the fact that we are talking about subsonic platforms that fly at a relatively fixed speeds and altitudes against targets within an hour away with relatively low cost internal digital nav systems that can easily get you to within ~1km of your target for a low cost counter imaging to do the rest against fixed targets (Combined & if truly built, designed and programed in Iran the guidance equipment, computers, sensor and electronics installed on the missile shouldn't cost any more than $10K not including software cost or other ground and launcher equipment & electronics)

During WW2 before computers even existed the Germans used Mechanical Gyro's to achieve 7km cep so with current tech 1-2km CEP can easily be achieved at a really low cost and the rest would be up to a smart low cost sensor capable of locking on it's pre programed target which by the most part would required smart and meticulous programing and intel gathering

Also if Iran's initial attack on the UAE is large enough with a good success rate without having to deplete a large portion of our BM stockpile I believe the Saudi's will get the message because within hours Iran has taken out most of UAE military capabilities without even depleting a large portion of it's BM stockpile and that alone should send a clear message to both the U.S., UAE and the Saudi's as to what could happen if Iran pulls out it's BM card.

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## PeeD

Mithridates said:


> but if we manage to do so that would be a hell of a weapon. can't we use solid metals in the nose of missile and enlarge it to overcome pressure strikes and instability?? i'm sure we can modify the fakour flight profile and make a deadly cruise missile of it just matter of several years of R&D or even less. to me it worth it to try.



Missiles like the Moskit and Irans rumored variant of it reach around mach 2-2,5 at low altitude. They have reinforced nose sections which you describe. However mach 5 is a different ball game, it has only been achieved at high altitude by the superpowers.
Thermal issues add to that and most importantly only a nuclear propulsion may could sustain a speed of mach 5 at high altitude. Russians who are experts in that field have just managed it now and probably just in the mach 2 at high altitude speed range.



TheImmortal said:


> For those worried about SCUDs
> 
> “The longer answer is this: the Patriot system is a good missile defense system and has been proven in combat. Since the Saudi-Iranian proxy war in Yemen broke out in 2015, Saudi and UAE Patriot missile defenses have intercepted at least 52 incoming missiles through Nov. 14, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Patriot manufacturer Raytheon claims the actual number of intercepts is much higher: more than 100.“



The bulk of those "missiles" were just shorter range battlefield rockets.
I agree that a SCUD-B can today be reliably be defended against with a Patriot and some 2 interceptors.
More so now that the PAC-3 level is available.
However it is still not a economical approach.

The good news is that the UAE won't be able to modify their SCUDs to something like the Qiam anytime soon. A Qiam still requires half a dozen PAC-3 to be intercepted with a useful PK.



TheImmortal said:


> So I am sorry @PeeD, your fears are unjustified in the sense that UAE has likely less than 30 SCUDs and Saudi Arabia has somewhere between 400-700 DF-3s (SCUD like) and less than 100 DF-21.



This are "strategic" issues for small countries like the UAE. The real number of SCUDs won't be reliably known and I expect them to be significantly higher.
On the other hand I don't think anything near 400 DF-3 were sold to Saudi Arabia, it should be in the high two digit range or low three. This are very large missiles designed to be nuclear tipped.
As for the DF-21 we can only hope that China somehow was mature enough to sell them on a 1:1 DF-3 replacement basis and not beyond that.



TheImmortal said:


> I wouldn’t worry about their BM capability but rather their airforce as they can inflict ALOT more damage on oil refineries and fields with their 500+ fighters than their BMs.



I had such discussions here some two years ago. 
Today we have officially seen point-strike MRBMs and Fateh strikes.
Hence I repeat what I said back then when we just knew about unguided sub munition warheads and early terminally guided missiles with no publicly known CEP: 
Their airbases won't be operational to support an air campaign, not even the Saudi superbases.
Irans mountain bases and arsenal is so large in numbers that the available firepower is devastating for any enemy.
This is the key reason why I don't support a strong IRIAF today. Guided weapon warfare has made conventional airpower very fragile... the INF treaty has kept it longer relevant than it naturally should be.



TheImmortal said:


> Lastly, even Israel managed to intercept a Iranian rocket over Golan, so your pessisim against simple trajectory BMs with non manuervable and non decoy warheads is bit unwarranted.



well Ok. But they still needed two interceptors for it. A major point are numbers and cost effectiveness: That missile over Golan could have just been a Zelzal-2 which may cost 1/8 of a single PAC-3 interceptor, not counting overall system cost.



TheImmortal said:


> In any case it’s tough to see how Iran manages to protect their oil fields. Hence why if SA or UAE dare to cross that line, they will suffer much more than Iran.
> 
> SA pumps 10+ million barrels a day. Even a 30-50% reduction will wreck havoc on world economics much more than Iran going from 3.5 million to 1 million. Most of Iran’s oil is domestic consumption given current oil sanctions.



They would be militarily neutralized quite soon into the conflict by Irans BM force and after that point they would switch to counter-value attacks. Oil refineries are so densely packed with equipment and huge that the loss of money a BM attack would cause is immense.
Basically in the 90's and 2000's Iran just kept holding Gulf Arabs oil industry at risk, a main reason for the development of the Zelzal and later Fateh. Only now Iran can confidently move to a counter-force doctrine on that issue.
If the collapse is near, they will use what they have against Irans most important and critical objects.



TheImmortal said:


> Iran’s focus should be increasing the density of their air systems per area. The S-300 order was not sufficient given the size of Iran. Iran should also order S-500 to complement Bavar.



Russians won't sell the S-500 anytime soon and S-300V series is not worth its money. Plus the Bavar team will now be capable enough to move to a next generation system with near-space and high speed capability.
But first Iran has an intimidate requirement for 20+ Bavar-373 batteries. Plus the IRGC-ASF is certainly working on its own projects to protect against DF-21 and Jericho series.



VEVAK said:


> No I don't consider the Howvaizeh ro Somar as a low cost LACM solution! They both carry +700lb payloads and have overpriced engines and airframes hell I wouldn't even consider the Karrar as a low cost solution I'm talking about a large barrage of cruise missiles closer to an improved Ya-Ali Class



Good that sounds sober. The Ya-Ali could be sufficiently low-cost to effectively compete with the Zolfaghar or Fateh-313. However a key cost position remains the turbojet. I think the price of the Fateh-313 should be really incredible.
It was designed for that goal --> price per round. Not a relative complex design like the Iskander.



VEVAK said:


> As for guidance Iran needs to stop looking at standard solutions.... A smart domestic land base positioning solution can be designed to guide the missiles during initial launch phase & ~10 min during initial flight on top of the fact that we are talking about subsonic platforms that fly at a relatively fixed speeds and altitudes against targets within an hour away with relatively low cost internal digital nav systems that can easily get you to within ~1km of your target for a low cost counter imaging to do the rest against fixed targets (Combined & if truly built, designed and programed in Iran the guidance equipment, computers, sensor and electronics installed on the missile shouldn't cost any more than $10K not including software cost or other ground and launcher equipment & electronics)
> 
> During WW2 before computers even existed the Germans used Mechanical Gyro's to achieve 7km cep so with current tech 1-2km CEP can easily be achieved at a really low cost and the rest would be up to a smart low cost sensor capable of locking on it's pre programed target which by the most part would required smart and meticulous programing and intel gathering



Yes such a guidance system is feasible and could be cheaply combined with TERCOM if data is available. A modern FOG INS may be able to get it even over the sea where no terrain is available, at low price.



VEVAK said:


> Also if Iran's initial attack on the UAE is large enough with a good success rate without having to deplete a large portion of our BM stockpile I believe the Saudi's will get the message because within hours Iran has taken out most of UAE military capabilities without even depleting a large portion of it's BM stockpile and that alone should send a clear message to both the U.S., UAE and the Saudi's as to what could happen if Iran pulls out it's BM card.



Irans BM stockpile is huge today. Shorter range tactical BMs of the Fateh series are not a important part of the strategic missile deterrence, they can be spend and produced. The oldest production batch is nearing the end of its life and need to be spend or rebuilt.


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## scimitar19

Mithridates said:


> but if we manage to do so that would be a hell of a weapon. can't we use solid metals in the nose of missile and enlarge it to overcome pressure strikes and instability?? i'm sure we can modify the fakour flight profile and make a deadly cruise missile of it just matter of several years of R&D or even less. to me it worth it to try.



What you are suggesting to some extent defies the definition of cruise missile. In theory even if this type of cruise missile does exist whats the point of maneuvering when you have super fast weapon at low altitudes because you use cruise missiles maneuvering characteristics to dodge areas that are under the AAA umbrella or/and to navigate over terrain obstacles. Maneuvering at the mach 5 very low altitude is almost impossible when you need to adjust altitude in quick succession towards the ridges and valleys, the stress for materials is tremendous.


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## TheImmortal

Current Simorgh UAVS are rather useless for attacks on SA and UAE assets due to their slow speed especially if time is of the essence.

Iran needs to create a Simorgh variant similar to USA cold era D-21 which was basically a mini blackbird variant







This bad boy had a operational ceiling of 90,000 feet at a max speed of Mach 3.3+! Range was 5600 KM! It was powered by 1 Ramjet engine (Marquardt RJ43). This is a 1960’s engine people!

Iran has announced they are working on supersonic cruise missiles, so depending on the ramjet engine being used with some upgrades and modifications it could power a next gen supersonic Iranian flying wing.

Given that this drone is (expected) to survive and not be on a one way trip (ex. cruise missiles); Then the overall cost of this engine will be lower than a long range supersonic cruise missile variant.

Today a more advanced country could likely build a hypersonic ramjet variant as the high altitude would allow you to use the air as an oxidizer.

Iran needs a UAV that can travel at very high ceiling (hard to intercept by AD missiles) and supersonic (hard to intercept by most fighters).

Iran could unleash a squadron of these have them fly over SA airspace unleash HIGH ALTITUDE cluster payload on oil targets or military airfields and by the time the enemy knew what happened they would be long gone!

This is a strategic weapon! This is the future of aerial warfare! HYPERSONIC AD missiles vs SUPER and HYPERSONIC UCAVs.

Iran needs to place value on SURVIVABILITY.

Unfortunately Iran is not pushing the boundaries of design, it is merely a copy cat military at this point (outside of BMs, which again are mostly copy cats outside F-110 family and sejil).

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## Sineva

Honestly at the moment I`d be far more worried about the uaes air launched black shaheen/storm shadow cruise missiles than I would their very small force of old non upgraded scuds,which frankly have a cep measured in hundreds of meters.The same would also be true for the saudi css3 force,if its actually still even operable of course.
The saudi DF-21 force might be more accurate but again we`re not dealing with terminally guided separating warheads so the accuracy would likely still be in the tens of meters.A potentially more dangerous threat might be the ukranian Grom,which is an iskander type short ranged missile but likely with very good accuracy,which the saudis have bankrolled the completion of and will probably be getting local production of in return,tho whether it will be mtcr compliant is the question.
I`ve no doubt that the gulfies know that the disparity in missile forces so greatly favors iran that for every gulfie missile fired at iran iran can fire 10,20,30 back in return,however I think that it is increasingly likely that as iran continues to both retrofit its long ranged missiles with precision guidance while at the same time continuing to stretch the range of its very accurate shorter ranged missiles,that the gulfies will realize just how vulnerable their air power is becoming to irans missile power and that they will probably take steps to try and address this such as they are already doing with the acquisition of abm systems like thaad.I think its also likely that they will attempt to acquire larger missile forces themselves,tho the problem here for them is the western imposed mtcr which limits their access to this at least from their western suppliers,however as we saw with the rok the west was willing to make acceptions to prior agreements on missile ranges,tho in this case the rok had developed these weapons itself.
Ultimately I think iran will need to consider developing abm capabilities of its own and the easiest short term way would be to develop dedicated abm systems for the bavar 373.A good model for this would be the russian s300vm which has its own dedicated mobile abm radar and potentially also 2 stage sayyad 4 missiles with the extra range and speed to intercept medium ranged missiles as well,this should be seriously considered in the medium term as it now seems very likely that with the collapse of the inf treaty that us will seriously look at developing its own new medium and intermediate ranged missiles,probably at first just with nuclear warheads but I certainly would not rule out conventionally armed versions either.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Missiles like the Moskit and Irans rumored variant of it reach around mach 2-2,5 at low altitude. They have reinforced nose sections which you describe. However mach 5 is a different ball game, it has only been achieved at high altitude by the superpowers.
> Thermal issues add to that and most importantly only a nuclear propulsion may could sustain a speed of mach 5 at high altitude. Russians who are experts in that field have just managed it now and probably just in the mach 2 at high altitude speed range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good that sounds sober. The Ya-Ali could be sufficiently low-cost to effectively compete with the Zolfaghar or Fateh-313. However a key cost position remains the turbojet. I think the price of the Fateh-313 should be really incredible.
> It was designed for that goal --> price per round. Not a relative complex design like the Iskander.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes such a guidance system is feasible and could be cheaply combined with TERCOM if data is available. A modern FOG INS may be able to get it even over the sea where no terrain is available, at low price.
> 
> 
> 
> Irans BM stockpile is huge today. Shorter range tactical BMs of the Fateh series are not a important part of the strategic missile deterrence, they can be spend and produced. The oldest production batch is nearing the end of its life and need to be spend or rebuilt.




The problem I mainly see with reverse engineering a cruise missile like the Kh-55 is that unlike Russia Iran is not a major Aircraft producer that produces a vast amount of Ti scraps (among other aviation grade super alloys) for Airframes and engines that we can then turn around and use the scraps for building cruise missile Air Frames and engines around and due to sanctions we can not even import the scarps at a reasonable price so in my opinion a truly viable and cost effective Iranian cruise missile has to be Iranian designed with materials and composites easily available & produced in Iran. So I can see why you'd say LACM like the Somar wouldn't make much sense for mass use compared to BM.

But when it comes to the engines I truly believe at Iran's level of technology producing the parts & materials for a Mini Jet engine (well under 400lbf) that doesn't need to have a life expectancy of any more than a few hours for a cruise missile that would be well within our capabilities to produce at very low cost especially if mass produced and especially if we put aside the standards norms and go our own rout when it comes to materials, design,....

For the engines we just need to develop a low cost easy to mass produce engine that can achieve the proper cruise speed at a manageable consumption rate while carrying ~250lb warhead. 

Back in 2010 the MicroTurbo TRI 60 was being sold for ~ $50K-$80K and that was what they were being sold for so I very much doubt their production cost for the producers would have been anywhere even close to $20K & that's including R&D..... and we definitely don't need that much power or engine that would last that long for a low cost solution and if done properly the engine shouldn't even cost $5k.

Our BM stockpile may be relatively large but even the Fatteh-110 is not a missile we can launch 10,000 of at the UAE in a short timespan and I believe on top of our BM's Iran needs a low cost LaCM solution that we can mass produce and mass launch at a relatively low cost a missile that not including the warhead costs, wouldn't cost us any more than $25K per unit
And if it was up to me I would have tried to store up to 12 missile in a standard size 20ft long shipping containers that could be placed on the back of trucks or on ships and launched from them at near horizonal under 10 degree angle.....

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## Mithridates

scimitar19 said:


> What you are suggesting to some extent defies the definition of cruise missile. In theory even if this type of cruise missile does exist whats the point of maneuvering when you have super fast weapon at low altitudes because you use cruise missiles maneuvering characteristics to dodge areas that are under the AAA umbrella or/and to navigate over terrain obstacles. Maneuvering at the mach 5 very low altitude is almost impossible when you need to adjust altitude in quick succession towards the ridges and valleys, the stress for materials is tremendous.


the point is this kind of missiles give you the strike capability, you can hit targets fast and accurately. if we hold it's range 150 km, less than two minutes it reaches the target. about maneuvering i don't think that it's matter because in mach 5 the air has 2.5 times more energy compared to mach 2 missile.





something like this (brahmos II).

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## Sineva

*Anxious Over Iran’s Missiles, EU Grapples to Contain Tehran*
*The European Union’s efforts come after the bloc refused to back Washington’s call for more extensive penalties*

By 
Laurence Norman
April 26, 2019 8:50 a.m. ET

Leading European countries are pursuing ways to contain Iran’s ballistic missiles work, amid growing concerns about Tehran’s large-scale weapons program and in the wake of a campaign by Washington to galvanize support for pressuring the Islamic Republic over its missiles.

The European Union’s new efforts, which include tighter export controls and pressure on non-EU countries to clamp down on sales of sensitive technology to Iran, come after the bloc refused to back Washington’s call for more extensive penalties.

As the U.S. raises economic pressure on Iran, the EU is increasingly eager to avoid steps that could push Tehran to quit the 2015 nuclear deal and rev up its nuclear program. These concerns grew more acute this week, with the EU criticizing the U.S. decision to end sanction waivers in May, which had allowed a handful of countries to continue buying Iranian oil without risk of U.S. penalties.

The EU will abide by the nuclear deal “as long as Iran continues with the full and effective implementation of its nuclear-related commitments,” Maja Kocijančič, spokeswoman for EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said Tuesday.

Europe has striven to keep Iran abiding by the deal since President Trump pulled the U.S. out of the accord nearly a year ago. Since last summer, the U.S. has ratcheted up sanctions against Iran, sending its economy into a tailspin and causing many foreign companies to leave.
The deal doesn’t significantly constrain the ballistic-missile program or counter Iran’s assertive posturing in the Middle East, but sets broad—temporary—limits on Iran’s nuclear activities.

Iran has said it has no atomic weapons plans and the United Nations atomic agency has stated multiple times that the country is abiding by the 2015 nuclear deal, which bans such efforts.

Experts said Iran is rapidly improving the precision and range of its weapons and Tehran is widely accused of transferring missiles and technology to regional proxies, such as Hezbollah and the Houthis in Yemen. The U.S. and Israel have alleged that Iran could eventually use missiles as a delivery system for a nuclear warhead, enabling Tehran to project a long-distance nuclear threat.

Initially, France, Germany and the U.K., along with allies like the Netherlands and Denmark, pressured the bloc to agree to sanctions such as asset freezes and travel bans against Iranian officials and entities.

The U.S. has pushed for such measures, but EU member states have refused because some worry they could incite Tehran to quit the nuclear agreement, diplomats involved in the discussions said. Sanctions require the backing of all 28 EU member states.

Britain, France and Germany are prodding the bloc to take alternative steps in “the next weeks and months,” said a senior European diplomat.

Iranian officials said Tehran will never enter negotiations on limits to its weapons program, when regional foes, like Saudi Arabia and Israel, are armed by the West.

Iran’s missiles have a range of up to 2,000 kilometers (1,243 miles), enough to hit some European countries, experts said.

One step would be to urge African and Asian countries to end exports or stymie the transit of sensitive goods to Iran, diplomats said. Similar past efforts yielded significant results.

Diplomats are also exploring wider prohibition of illicit shipments of missile parts or technology, through tightening cooperation in a U.S.-led nonproliferation pact set up in 2006. It involves exchanging information about illicit exports to countries like Iran and North Korea and encourages efforts to stop them.

Plus, officials could tighten export controls, diplomats said. The EU has a dual-use list of products that need extra checks because they can be used for military and civilian purposes. Brussels can push for member states to watch for exports of products not on the list that Iran could easily refine for use in its missile program.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/anxious-over-irans-missiles-eu-grapples-to-contain-tehran-11556283032

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## VEVAK

Mithridates said:


> the point is this kind of missiles give you the strike capability, you can hit targets fast and accurately. if we hold it's range 150 km, less than two minutes it reaches the target. about maneuvering i don't think that it's matter because in mach 5 the air has 2.5 times more energy compared to mach 2 missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> something like this (brahmos II).



Main problem with such missiles right now would be costs and these are missiles that do most of their high speed flying at high altitudes and Mach 5 at high altitudes is really not that much for the high cost of such a missile to make much sense when compared to the Fatteh, Zolfaghar & Dezful class.

I would say in the future Iran could potentially replace the post boost section for a high glide capable scramjet powered RV sometime in the future but unless we can produce them at an affordable price mass production and deployment wouldn't be feasible 

Anti Ballistic Missile systems aren't cheap systems, each of their missiles costs a lot of money and they can easily be overwhelmed if you can launch a sufficient number of projectiles & decoys so if you have to pay 10 times the cost of a Fatteh for scramjet you would far better off simply firing 10 Fatteh…..

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## PeeD

The path for Iran should be clear: Rocket booster accelerated high-supersonic to hypersonic glide vehicles.

Basically what was achieved by Russians with the Avantgard and what Chinese are working on.

Neither ram or scream jet sustainers are worth the money for conventional application. In fact even glide vehicles are expensive depending on what grade of thermal shielding they have (= speed).

An small arsenal of these would be needed to knock out future ABM systems and allow for variable attack vector.

Current Emad class MaRV already offer a limited capability in that direction. Iran needs to come close to the leader in the field of thermal shielding, Russia, to enable a class of propulsion-less glide vehicles.




VEVAK said:


> The problem I mainly see with reverse engineering a cruise missile like the Kh-55 is that unlike Russia Iran is not a major Aircraft producer that produces a vast amount of Ti scraps (among other aviation grade super alloys) for Airframes and engines that we can then turn around and use the scraps for building cruise missile Air Frames and engines around and due to sanctions we can not even import the scarps at a reasonable price so in my opinion a truly viable and cost effective Iranian cruise missile has to be Iranian designed with materials and composites easily available & produced in Iran. So I can see why you'd say LACM like the Somar wouldn't make much sense for mass use compared to BM.
> 
> But when it comes to the engines I truly believe at Iran's level of technology producing the parts & materials for a Mini Jet engine (well under 400lbf) that doesn't need to have a life expectancy of any more than a few hours for a cruise missile that would be well within our capabilities to produce at very low cost especially if mass produced and especially if we put aside the standards norms and go our own rout when it comes to materials, design,....
> 
> For the engines we just need to develop a low cost easy to mass produce engine that can achieve the proper cruise speed at a manageable consumption rate while carrying ~250lb warhead.
> 
> Back in 2010 the MicroTurbo TRI 60 was being sold for ~ $50K-$80K and that was what they were being sold for so I very much doubt their production cost for the producers would have been anywhere even close to $20K & that's including R&D..... and we definitely don't need that much power or engine that would last that long for a low cost solution and if done properly the engine shouldn't even cost $5k.
> 
> Our BM stockpile may be relatively large but even the Fatteh-110 is not a missile we can launch 10,000 of at the UAE in a short timespan and I believe on top of our BM's Iran needs a low cost LaCM solution that we can mass produce and mass launch at a relatively low cost a missile that not including the warhead costs, wouldn't cost us any more than $25K per unit
> And if it was up to me I would have tried to store up to 12 missile in a standard size 20ft long shipping containers that could be placed on the back of trucks or on ships and launched from them at near horizonal under 10 degree angle.....



Your idea of such a cheap LACM could compete with the Fateh family, agreed. The S-191's micro turbojet coupled to an electric fan of RQ-170 technology, may be able to offer a low price propulsion for a future cheap LACM.
Still it is very hard to beat the Fateh in cost-efficiency, payload, range, precision, time and velocity performance parameters.

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## AmirPatriot

aryobarzan said:


> you guys are using too much brain power on what these savages can do....Hit their water desalination plants in the first few hours and they be all running around with empty water tanks in their white skirts...
> On the serious side..I saw interview of an Arab TV channel with a saudi military officer and he said it himself ..."If Iranians destroy our water desalination plants the conflict is over"..so I leave it there.



You should consider that in a war we would be scrutinised to death by everyone and the Israelis and Arabs would be pushing congressional hawks/any republican administration super hard to join in an Arab war on Iran. So we can't afford dealing "low blows" like this. "Iran deprives Arab babies of water" etc.



PeeD said:


> Don't expect to find many future static SAM sites except for a system like B-373. One can imagine the presence of up to date mobile system in this high risk border regions, most importantly the 3rd Khordad.



Iran mostly has static sites even for Sayyad and 3rd Khordad systems, with their mobility being used for shoot n scoot. The best we have are garrisons where I'm guessing in a raid the vehicles would drive out to the surrounding area. 



PeeD said:


> I'm confident that the price of the Fateh family is quite low. If I would have to select between a Toloue turbojet Hoveyzieh and a Zolfaghar, I would certainly take the Zolfaghar.
> The point is that overall system quality control for a 700km range CM is still high (= high costs), a different league than for the Noor/Ghadir AshM. I doubt that a Hoveyzieh could be produced much cheaper than a Zolfaghar.



The Hoveyzeh's 1300 km range means it should be compared to Dezful. Hoveyzeh is a very simple missile; cheap low-endurance turbojet, a conventional warhead, a couple of simple guidance systems (INS+TERCOM, maybe civilian GPS for redundancy) driving wings at low subsonic. The rest is mostly aluminium and fuel. 

Dezful on the other hand is far removed from that. It's bigger than any of the previous Fateh variants. Solid fuel motor is larger than the pre-Zolfaqar Fatehs. It has a separating MaRV with a thermobaric warhead, and of course it needs to endure the high stress of supersonic flight. And it has a high carbon fibre and other composite content to save weight.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> The path for Iran should be clear: Rocket booster accelerated high-supersonic to hypersonic glide vehicles.
> 
> Basically what was achieved by Russians with the Avantgard and what Chinese are working on.
> 
> Neither ram or scream jet sustainers are worth the money for conventional application. In fact even glide vehicles are expensive depending on what grade of thermal shielding they have (= speed).
> 
> An small arsenal of these would be needed to knock out future ABM systems and allow for variable attack vector.
> 
> Current Emad class MaRV already offer a limited capability in that direction. Iran needs to come close to the leader in the field of thermal shielding, Russia, to enable a class of propulsion-less glide vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your idea of such a cheap LACM could compete with the Fateh family, agreed. The S-191's micro turbojet coupled to an electric fan of RQ-170 technology, may be able to offer a low price propulsion for a future cheap LACM.
> Still it is very hard to beat the Fateh in cost-efficiency, payload, range, precision, time and velocity performance parameters.




Agreed, and I have to say for me a low cost LaCm solution can only be useful for us if it's only a compliment to our Fateh series not a replacement and only if we could produce them at a fraction of the costs. That's why I'd stick to under ~250lb payloads for a Low cost LaCm solution to increase the rate of fire and widen the number of targets without risking the depletion of our Fatteh stock and no doubt that if we could produce, store & launch the Fatteh at even double or triple the cost of each low cost LACM I would have no doubt still picked the Fatteh series over any low cost LACM​
To me the Fatteh Series (Fatteh, Zolfaghar & Dezful) are an engineering marvel in terms of project management and probably the most successful missile projects Iran has and is hands down the best examples of sticking to an appropriate design and continuously upgrading it none stop like clockwork and refusing to give up!

As for a high glide Scramjet RV I believe it will be a natural eventuality in development and at best may be produced in very limited numbers for specific operation sometime in the future but overall the cost wouldn't make much sense for mass production (At our current level of tech) and I believe if we do produce them for limited use in the future it would most definitely be something that would have to remain classified and not be made public....

I believe the Saegheh UCAV can also be turned into a vital low cost weapon system that need to be continuously upgraded and enhanced and mass produced in far greater numbers. The IRGC should most defiantly think about using even lighter ordinances to increasing the number of targets the Saegheh UCAV's can hit from releasing a large number of unguided ordnances (shape charges ~2-3 inches in diameter powered by a tiny rocket vertically launched out of the bay) over an area or up to 8 light PGM (4 per bay) powered by electric motors...

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## TheImmortal

For those that care: this article from 1999! Talks about a DARPA program to build an affordable hypersonic long range cruise missile. It theorizes a Missile could be produced at a price of 200K (1998) dollars per unit.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d3d4/27585e6d4a7db1d036ca2124c204b1849dc3.pdf

If Iran can build such a Missile even at that price, it would be a immensely valuable strategic weapon.

Nonetheless, missiles (BM or CM) can not be the only route. Enemies will simply calculate your inventory and wait for you to exhaust most of your supply. Given during period of war, Iran’s production of additional missiles will be low.

Thus Iran needs a 3rd dynamic: Supersonic unmanned bombers at a affordable price that can penetrate enemy airspace and drop high altitude ordnance.

The drone should be built at a cost that provides it survivability, but allow for mass production. A unit cost of $3 million per drone will allow Iran to amass 100 high supersonic unmanned bombers for $300 Million. The force multiplier of such a concept is high.

Ideally if Iran was a more developed nation with a bigger budget, I would propose an elite hypersonic UAV that could skip across the upper atmosphere, basically an Avangard in form of UAV and reusable. This UAV weapon if realized would easily become the most deadly on the planet and make the B-2 look like child’s play.

Nonetheless, if Iran can build a stealth flying wing supersonic UAV capable of high altitude flight and ordnance dropping at an AFFORDABLE price, it would be a GameChanger along side the BM/CM Arsenal. 

Currently Iran is too 1 dimensional.

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## PeeD

The future is path is already clear for Iran as said.

BMs.

All weapon systems have one goal --> deliver something to somewhere to cause destruction.

Here we have a huge range of different capability levels that are in direct connection with the costs.

Everything is judged by following key parameters:
- Range = attack vector = distance survivability 
- Extend of destruction = payload = terminal velocity = payload type
- Velocity = delivery time = envelope and speed capability of countering system
- Size = launch concept = position/basing flexibility = reconnaissance footprint = survivability
- Logistics/support = system robustness = indirect reconnaissance footprint
- Survivability = basing = velocity = hardening = availability = system robustness = trajectory

Based on this key parameters we can decide which systems are the best.

Warfare is basically a erosion process, something is thrown against something to degrade it.
BMs basically do just that, from an arrow --> artillery --> aircraft dropped bomb --> BM

At the start of a peer-level conflict, the most effective weapons will be used until the adversaries capability are degraded to a extend that the next lower capability system can be used (a cheaper more cost-efficient weapon).
Therefore at one point Iran would stop using BMs and switch to conventional airpower or even drone based airpower.

BMs are hence everything that counts for now.

In future Iran will have early warning assets which have low survivability but high reconnaissance capability. These will be small imaging/SAR satellites and a static OTH radar network. These will ensure that Iran knows its targets prior to the start of the warfare phase.
If this is coupled with the BM force, a large portion of enemy capability will be degraded in the first hours.
Once enemy ASAT and BMs neutralize these strategic early warning assets, speed will decrease.

The next thing Iran will need are hypersonic glide vehicles (waverider). How do they look like? Simply an unpowered warhead for existing and future BMs. What capability do they add?
Not speed as many may think.
It adds a more flexible attack vector and a depressed trajectory for later detection by enemy EW and ABM. It may be able to stay longer in the plasma phase of the re-entry (depending on the thermal shielding). The rest of the capabilities are same as a BM.
This capability is only needed to counter future ABM systems = a very small portion of enemy warfare capability.

Current ABM capability already would have immense problems against new generation MaRV and space released submunition strategies Iranian BMs employ.

In conclusion: They key performance parameters of BMs are so superior to LACM/supersonic bombing/conventional airpower that the key reasoning is this: Can Iran afford to use BMs to neutralize enemy tier-1 assets or is it necessary to go for a cheaper solution of lower capability.

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## aryobarzan

Beautiful discussions..happy to see so many smart ideas being put forward..but lets consider this:
If Iran is ever going to be invaded *intentionally* (not accidental war), it will be a combined forces of Arabs,Israel and US/Nato. No amount of BM or CM or Hyper velocity supper weapons can prevent them from neutralizing Iran once and for good....so the only and best option that Iran has is to prevent such a decision ever being made by the enemy.. and how to do that....the answer is *OIL* and *Nuclear*.

*1- Oil and Oil starvation of world economy*....make sure the current and future weapons Iran develops can ensure the destruction of the entire Oil/Gas infrastructure of the arab producers beyond doubt and let the enemy know damn well it is a real capability (this is Persian Gulf and Red sea underwater pipelines, refineries and oil wells). Also includes extended closure of Hormoze to all trade traffic and Gulf of Aden (I mean more than 6 months)..

*2- Have the bomb* or at least make sure they know you have a real latent nuclear device capability ( as I understand Iran may already have this or soon will have that).

The above two options will ensure that if Iran is ever invaded we also have the samson option..Once the enemy knows these two options are in place their calculations will change and they will try to either make a deal or subvert Iran from within (they are practising in Venezuela now..lol).

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## Mithridates

PeeD said:


> The future is path is already clear for Iran as said.
> 
> BMs.
> 
> All weapon systems have one goal --> deliver something to somewhere to cause destruction.
> 
> Here we have a huge range of different capability levels that are in direct connection with the costs.
> 
> Everything is judged by following key parameters:
> - Range = attack vector = distance survivability
> - Extend of destruction = payload = terminal velocity = payload type
> - Velocity = delivery time = envelope and speed capability of countering system
> - Size = launch concept = position/basing flexibility = reconnaissance footprint = survivability
> - Logistics/support = system robustness = indirect reconnaissance footprint
> - Survivability = basing = velocity = hardening = availability = system robustness = trajectory
> 
> Based on this key parameters we can decide which systems are the best.
> 
> Warfare is basically a erosion process, something is thrown against something to degrade it.
> BMs basically do just that, from an arrow --> artillery --> aircraft dropped bomb --> BM
> 
> At the start of a peer-level conflict, the most effective weapons will be used until the adversaries capability are degraded to a extend that the next lower capability system can be used (a cheaper more cost-efficient weapon).
> Therefore at one point Iran would stop using BMs and switch to conventional airpower or even drone based airpower.
> 
> BMs are hence everything that counts for now.
> 
> In future Iran will have early warning assets which have low survivability but high reconnaissance capability. These will be small imaging/SAR satellites and a static OTH radar network. These will ensure that Iran knows its targets prior to the start of the warfare phase.
> If this is coupled with the BM force, a large portion of enemy capability will be degraded in the first hours.
> Once enemy ASAT and BMs neutralize these strategic early warning assets, speed will decrease.
> 
> The next thing Iran will need are hypersonic glide vehicles (waverider). How do they look like? Simply an unpowered warhead for existing and future BMs. What capability do they add?
> Not speed as many may think.
> It adds a more flexible attack vector and a depressed trajectory for later detection by enemy EW and ABM. It may be able to stay longer in the plasma phase of the re-entry (depending on the thermal shielding). The rest of the capabilities are same as a BM.
> This capability is only needed to counter future ABM systems = a very small portion of enemy warfare capability.
> 
> Current ABM capability already would have immense problems against new generation MaRV and space released submunition strategies Iranian BMs employ.
> 
> In conclusion: They key performance parameters of BMs are so superior to LACM/supersonic bombing/conventional airpower that the key reasoning is this: Can Iran afford to use BMs to neutralize enemy tier-1 assets or is it necessary to go for a cheaper solution of lower capability.


the question is how we are going to neutralize enemy THAAD batteries to target them or the area they protect?? or more importantly how we gonna figure it out were are they?? their launchers, radars, command post??
in the scenario you mentioned we need low flying/stealth bombers to neutralize enemy air defense (THAAD) or maybe specops/proxies to infiltrate and take them out. we should have other cards to play in case of war, thinking unidirectional and focusing only on BMs is a weakness, i know the value of our BMs but the enemy knows that too. we should develop other deterances just in case that the first plan fail.
we need better surveillance assets and striking capability.

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Mithridates said:


> the question is how we are going to neutralize enemy THAAD batteries to target them or the area they protect?? or more importantly how we gonna figure it out were are they?? their launchers, radars, command post??
> in the scenario you mentioned we need low flying/stealth bombers to neutralize enemy air defense (THAAD) or maybe specops/proxies to infiltrate and take them out. we should have other cards to play in case of war, thinking unidirectional and focusing only on BMs is a weakness, i know the value of our BMs but the enemy knows that too. we should develop other deterances just in case that the first plan fail.
> we need better surveillance assets and striking capability.


Its not necessary to neutralize THAAD if you can overwhelm it with superior number of BMs. Is it ideal? No!

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## PeeD

Following ABM defeat concepts are known or theorized:

- Superior speed: Gives the BM/HGV the capability to pull higher G's for evasive maneuvers. It also means more such evasive maneuvers can be performed.

- Decoys

- exo-atmospheric released sub munitions

- Multiple guided warheads to ensure superiority in cost-effectiveness

- Potential stealth due to buildup of a plasma layer. This can be exploited by "waveriding" HGVs if that thermal state can be sustained long enough

We can envision the following scenario:

2025 Iran has developed a ICBM that has 3 hypersonic glide vehicles, completely unpowered and in terms of thermal shielding true "waverider" designs.
A network (100+) of cost effective reconnaissance cubesats with 1m resolution cameras is online and allows a update rate of one overfly per hour globally.
A preemptive plan identifies all relevant ABM systems.
An ASAT capability is also available. In the first second of the scenario enemy reconnaissance sats, foremost infrared signature warning sats are taken out.
Once this has been achieved, the ICBMs with HGV are launched at a depressed trajectory. This accelerated the unpowered HGV to mach 18.
The HGV have VLO/stealth shaping as well a thick fragile RAM coating, preventing enemy early warning to pick them up. Their depressed trajectory also reduced ABM radar line of sight range.

Once altitude is lost and 80% of the distance achieved they have reached 40km altitude at mach 10. The RAM coating is lost due to the friction and thermal loads but the high speed created a plasma film around the HGV that has the same or better effect.

Enemy long range radar sensor are fooled by the HGV but short range thermal sensors eventually pick them up. Quite late, as the attacking HGV are well timed to attack the ABM system from a 180° spectrum of attack vectors (defeating sector scan radars as the THAAD's).
ABM interceptors are launched to intercept via IR sensors or once the plasma effect has sufficiently decreased.
ABM interceptors reach mach 6 peak after their boost phase has ended while the HGVs approach at mach 8. A random maneuvering program is performed by the HGVs at 200km from the target and the ABM interceptors are forced to perform the necessary course corrections. This leads to following situation at the interception point:
HGV has reached 20km altitude and lost speed down to mach 5, the interceptor has lost speed to mach 4.
This is the final situation and the HGV is able to pull more G's at that interception point.
The HGV pulls a random maneuver and the interceptor is too low on energy to pull enough G's for a direct hit interception.

Theoretically the Zolfaghar and Dezful for example can already now perform a somewhat similar attack scenario, depends on their capability details.

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## Mithridates

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Its not necessary to neutralize THAAD if you can overwhelm it with superior number of BMs. Is it ideal? No!


it should be ideal, the theory of overwhelming enemy air defence works for US bases and israel, small areas. if you launch 50 missiles toward israel they will overwhelm all of their ADs but saudis and to some extent emiratis have larger country and their assets are spread all over the land so our missiles are less deadly for them compared to israelis. maybe that's why iran AF refused russians su-27 production line offer and went after su-30, a multirole plane to suppress enemy air defences, also we all remember how our military attache in ukraine tried to smuggle a kh-31 to iran i guess it explains all the matters.

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## Hack-Hook

Mithridates said:


> it should be ideal, the theory of overwhelming enemy air defence works for US bases and israel, small areas. if you launch 50 missiles toward israel they will overwhelm all of their ADs but saudis and to some extent emiratis have larger country and their assets are spread all over the land so our missiles are less deadly for them compared to israelis. maybe that's why iran AF refused russians su-27 production line offer and went after su-30, a multirole plane to suppress enemy air defences, also we all remember how our military attache in ukraine tried to smuggle a kh-31 to iran i guess it explains all the matters.


If you want to saturate air defence ,why wasting missiles attacking enemy infra structure .
Why not in saturating phase not targeting air defence radars . then you'll have free reign to target anywhere you want without wasting missiles for overwhelming air defence .

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## Mithridates

Hack-Hook said:


> If you want to saturate air defence ,why wasting missiles attacking enemy infra structure .
> Why not in saturating phase not targeting air defence radars . then you'll have free reign to target anywhere you want without wasting missiles for overwhelming air defence .


how you gonna know where they stationed their radars, launchers and command posts??

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## Hack-Hook

Mithridates said:


> how you gonna know where they stationed their radars, launchers and command posts??


You need to target radars the rest is not that important . and they had to turn on those radars otherwise the system is useless and when they turn that RADAR on there is no way hiding the location of it.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> For those that care: this article from 1999! Talks about a DARPA program to build an affordable hypersonic long range cruise missile. It theorizes a Missile could be produced at a price of 200K (1998) dollars per unit.
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d3d4/27585e6d4a7db1d036ca2124c204b1849dc3.pdf
> 
> If Iran can build such a Missile even at that price, it would be a immensely valuable strategic weapon.
> 
> Nonetheless, missiles (BM or CM) can not be the only route. Enemies will simply calculate your inventory and wait for you to exhaust most of your supply. Given during period of war, Iran’s production of additional missiles will be low.
> 
> Thus Iran needs a 3rd dynamic: Supersonic unmanned bombers at a affordable price that can penetrate enemy airspace and drop high altitude ordnance.
> 
> The drone should be built at a cost that provides it survivability, but allow for mass production. A unit cost of $3 million per drone will allow Iran to amass 100 high supersonic unmanned bombers for $300 Million. The force multiplier of such a concept is high.
> 
> Ideally if Iran was a more developed nation with a bigger budget, I would propose an elite hypersonic UAV that could skip across the upper atmosphere, basically an Avangard in form of UAV and reusable. This UAV weapon if realized would easily become the most deadly on the planet and make the B-2 look like child’s play.
> 
> Nonetheless, if Iran can build a stealth flying wing supersonic UAV capable of high altitude flight and ordnance dropping at an AFFORDABLE price, it would be a GameChanger along side the BM/CM Arsenal.
> 
> Currently Iran is too 1 dimensional.



I wouldn't say Iran is 1 dimensional in it's approach and although BM are the most vital retaliatory system we have they are not the only means of retaliation but are simply the most effective and the largest one we have.

That said, your right Iran can't afford to be so fixated on BM's alone especially single warhead BM's because at the end of the day BM's are not an easy system to store, fuel, transport and launch regardless of the costs.

And yes having a good size fleet of supersonic UCAV's that can get within ~100-200km of a highly protected target release a good number of high glide PGM's against defensive systems and come home & have the capability to get even closer to use cheaper ordinances once the defense systems are gone would be vital for Iran and a great add on to our current capabilities and personally I would take high altitude supersonic at even Mach 1.5(Cruise) over weapons that can be taken out by SHORAD systems BUT the main problem is that building such a weapon systems is not so easy especially in a country that still imports materials for it's domestically built Kowsar(F-5) and doesn't yet have a credible Aircraft industry....

*And with scramjet and ramjet type engines you need an engine and a platform that can achieve such high speeds that it's average on a 5-10 min burn can get you at a sufficient enough range while caring a sufficient amount of ordnances for the system to make sense *which is not easy to do at all and that's why countries developing scramjet missiles try to use the kinetic energy of the missile it's self rather than adding the added weight of a sufficient size warhead and therein lies the problem in developing a reusable scramjet powered UCAV because you not only need an Airframe capable of withstanding the heat and pressures of high speed flight but you also need to carry a sufficient amount of ordnances for the system to make sense.
So I'm all for Supersonic UCAV's but I just don't believe that Technologically we are at a level where a scramjet UCAV could potentially make sense.... In the future maybe but not yet!

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## Websorber

*Iran won't back down on its position on missile program*

*https://en.mehrnews.com/news/144793/Iran-won-t-back-down-on-its-position-on-missile-program*

*




*

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## VEVAK

Websorber said:


> *Iran won't back down on its position on missile program*
> 
> *https://en.mehrnews.com/news/144793/Iran-won-t-back-down-on-its-position-on-missile-program*
> 
> *
> View attachment 558106
> *



Iran would quite literally have to be suicidal to give up on it's missile program one iota!

The U.S. sanctioned Iran's military for 40 years! They have successfully prevented Iran from gradually upgrading it's Air Force for 4 decades now so even if they remove all sanctions on Iran's military tomorrow and handed Iran 200 F-35's for free it still wouldn't make a difference & Iran still couldn't afford to hand it's missiles over so there is absolutely nothing to negotiate about! This is a hole the west has spent 40 years digging it's self into and Iranian leaders would truly have to be suicidal to negotiate on it's missile program especially since Iran's own self restrictions on ICBM's have proven ineffective and are clearly not enough for them.

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## Kastor

VEVAK said:


> Iran would quite literally have to be suicidal to give up on it's missile program one iota!
> 
> The U.S. sanctioned Iran's military for 40 years! They have successfully prevented Iran from gradually upgrading it's Air Force for 4 decades now so even if they remove all sanctions on Iran's military tomorrow and handed Iran 200 F-35's for free it still wouldn't make a difference & Iran still couldn't afford to hand it's missiles over so there is absolutely nothing to negotiate about! This is a hole the west has spend 40 years digging it's self into and Iranian leaders would truly have to be suicidal to negotiate on it's missile program especially since Iran's own self restrictions on ICBM's have proven ineffective and are clearly not enough for them.


Iran needs to start breaking it's word also....just like the West, this is war, a war on the economy, a war on growth and stature of Iran.......the problem is we have people in power that make it easy for the Westerners and Zionist to do this to us. We need professionals people, diplomats, politician, tacticians not clergies.

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## VEVAK

Kastor said:


> Iran needs to start breaking it's word also....just like the West, this is war, a war on the economy, a war on growth and stature of Iran.......the problem is we have people in power that make it easy for the Westerners and Zionist to do this to us. We need professionals people, diplomats, politician, tacticians not clergies.



I don't think the problem stems to whether a person is a clergy or not people are people and just as some people are idiots and some quite the opposite some clergies are also idiots & some quite the opposite.... Unfortunately, in Iran there are a few illogical and absurd social policies like Hejab by Force that are giving all clergy's regardless of that individuals views a bad rep.
Also, many Iranian clergies in power today aren't simply educated in religious studies but yes if a clergy is simply educated in religious studies with no real experience then yes I totally agree with you and they should either go back to school or stick to being a simple clergy..... (But, people like Iran's Supreme leader have 4 decades of leadership experience that I'd consider invaluable to any Iranian administration in power and the fact that he is a clergy or that you or I don't agree with all his social views shouldn't negate 4 decades of invaluable experience that he does have....)


And despite what the West say's when it comes to actions and in particular international relations Iranian leaders have so far acted far more rational and calculative than many so called secular governments & their so called moderate regional allies.

BUT the problem I see is that when you become too calculative in your approach and on top of that you put yourself on constant defensive footing like the Rohani Administration has done so far then you not only risk becoming predictive and outmaneuvered but in international relations your risking setting precedents that others will naturally follow.
So Iran could easily wait out Trump even if he is reelected but there is no guarantee that with the examples Iran is setting today the next U.S. administration wont use the same type of tactics in achieving their own goals. And whether your a boxer or a country you can only take punches for so long until your completely worn out.

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## scimitar19

VEVAK said:


> Iran would quite literally have to be suicidal to give up on it's missile program one iota!
> 
> The U.S. sanctioned Iran's military for 40 years! They have successfully prevented Iran from gradually upgrading it's Air Force for 4 decades now so even if they remove all sanctions on Iran's military tomorrow and handed Iran 200 F-35's for free it still wouldn't make a difference & Iran still couldn't afford to hand it's missiles over so there is absolutely nothing to negotiate about! This is a hole the west has spent 40 years digging it's self into and Iranian leaders would truly have to be suicidal to negotiate on it's missile program especially since Iran's own self restrictions on ICBM's have proven ineffective and are clearly not enough for them.



I second this from head to toe.

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Iran would quite literally have to be suicidal to give up on it's missile program one iota!
> 
> The U.S. sanctioned Iran's military for 40 years! They have successfully prevented Iran from gradually upgrading it's Air Force for 4 decades now so even if they remove all sanctions on Iran's military tomorrow and handed Iran 200 F-35's for free it still wouldn't make a difference & Iran still couldn't afford to hand it's missiles over so there is absolutely nothing to negotiate about! This is a hole the west has spent 40 years digging it's self into and Iranian leaders would truly have to be suicidal to negotiate on it's missile program especially since Iran's own self restrictions on ICBM's have proven ineffective and are clearly not enough for them.



The day Iran even negotiates on its missiles no matter how small or large the concession is the day the Clock starts ticking on the Republic.

Nearly EVERYTIME a lesser power has negotiated with the US in arms related control it has ended badly for that power.

Example Russia(Soviet Union) negotiating nuclear treaties, Russia negotiating nuclear capable missile treaties, Russia negotiating cruise missiles, etc all these have WEAKEND Russia and lead to higher NATO presense on its doorstep along with missile shields. Lastly it still lead to Russia being sanctioned!

let’s not even name the Arab countries like Iraq and Libya.

Notice how China does not negotiate over its arms with the US. It moves full steam ahead not giving a damn about the others because that is how superpower and global powers think. Appeasement is for fools and traitors.

So either the Republic either goes down with the ship if it collapses (due to socio-economic reasons) or it becomes traitors and negotiates over Missile program. This will merely buy themselves sometime to stay in power a little while longer.

In the end, it ends the same.

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## skyshadow

https://www.telewebion.com/episode/2018995


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> The day Iran even negotiates on its missiles no matter how small or large the concession is the day the Clock starts ticking on the Republic.
> 
> Nearly EVERYTIME a lesser power has negotiated with the US in arms related control it has ended badly for that power.
> 
> Example Russia(Soviet Union) negotiating nuclear treaties, Russia negotiating nuclear capable missile treaties, Russia negotiating cruise missiles, etc all these have WEAKEND Russia and lead to higher NATO presense on its doorstep along with missile shields. Lastly it still lead to Russia being sanctioned!
> 
> let’s not even name the Arab countries like Iraq and Libya.
> 
> Notice how China does not negotiate over its arms with the US. It moves full steam ahead not giving a damn about the others because that is how superpower and global powers think. Appeasement is for fools and traitors.
> 
> So either the Republic either goes down with the ship if it collapses (due to socio-economic reasons) or it becomes traitors and negotiates over Missile program. This will merely buy themselves sometime to stay in power a little while longer.
> 
> In the end, it ends the same.



Agreed with most of what you said except for that last bit, negotiations about Iran's Missile program is not going to give anyone in power in Iran a little while longer in fact quite the opposite because it's not simply the foreign factor you have to deal with.

At the end of the day the U.S. hasn't sanctioned Iran's Air Force going on 4 decades because they wanted to prevent Iran from having missiles or nukes that could threaten U.S. or European soil..... 

If it was up to me a month or two after the U.S. left the JCPOA and EU proved it's self to be incompetent Iran should have started sending SLV's up on a monthly bases, and opened up a new missile factory every month Americans or Europeans talked about Iranian missiles and prepped to not only leave the JCPOA but the NPT and prepared to start going fully nuclear as soon as possible once US sanctions on Iranian Oil started.

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## skyshadow

*Take Notice, America: Iran's Missiles Keep Getting Better and Better*

*https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...missiles-keep-getting-better-and-better-56132*

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## Mithridates

UAE vs zelzal rockets:






UAE power plants




UAE airports



















what surprise me is that UAE assets be it air ports or power plants are gathered near the sea and toward the northern part of the country, near iran shores and more importantly near the bandar abbas and air force 9th airbase. i'm wondering why they are talk shit while they are in such great vulnerability.

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## sepasgozar

Mithridates said:


> UAE vs zelzal rockets:
> View attachment 558710
> 
> 
> UAE power plants
> View attachment 558711
> 
> UAE airports
> 
> 
> View attachment 558712
> 
> View attachment 558713
> 
> View attachment 558714
> 
> View attachment 558715
> 
> 
> what surprise me is that UAE assets be it air ports or power plants are gathered near the sea and toward the northern part of the country, near iran shores and more importantly near the bandar abbas and air force 9th airbase. i'm wondering why they are talk shit while they are in such great vulnerability.



Our missiles are pointed at these bases. If the UAE thinks it will be bereft of responsibility and guilt in the event of agression against Iran, it is gravely mistaken.

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## Mithridates

sepasgozar said:


> Our missiles are pointed at these bases. If the UAE thinks it will be bereft of responsibility and guilt in the event of agression against Iran, it is gravely mistaken.


the point is geologically they are in a great disadvantage that we can pose a threat for them with just artillery rockets but they still threatening us.

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## aryobarzan

Mithridates said:


> the point is geologically they are in a great disadvantage that we can pose a threat for them with just artillery rockets but they still threatening us.


The smaller the dog the louder they bark..

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## Sineva

Mithridates said:


> UAE vs zelzal rockets:
> View attachment 558710
> 
> 
> UAE power plants
> View attachment 558711
> 
> UAE airports
> 
> 
> View attachment 558712
> 
> View attachment 558713
> 
> View attachment 558714
> 
> View attachment 558715
> 
> 
> what surprise me is that UAE assets be it air ports or power plants are gathered near the sea and toward the northern part of the country, near iran shores and more importantly near the bandar abbas and air force 9th airbase. i'm wondering why they are talk shit while they are in such great vulnerability.


I think part of it was that its a pretty small country with most of the population centers near the coast,which is probably were all the traditional economic activity took place originally,and they probably never stopped to think that iran would go on to build the largest missile force in the me,or that the application of various forms of precision guidance to those missiles would make them terrifyingly accurate precision weapons rather than just the not particularly accurate area bombardment weapons that they previously were.
Ultimately even if they had known it would have done them little good as owing to their small size,they just like israel in fact,lack any strategic depth.

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## skyshadow

" The US could send Patriot missile batteries back to the region months after the US had brought some back home. No final decision on additional deployments have been made but the officials made clear if the Iranians were to pull back, the batteries might not be needed.
The Pentagon currently believes Iran's actions could put US and coalition forces at risk in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar. US military and intelligence officials are monitoring the movement of the Iranian missiles around the clock but have yet to see a pullback."


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/07/politics/us-iran-transporting-missiles/index.html

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/...iran-moving-ballistic-missiles-by-boat-report

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## Aramagedon



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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> " The US could send Patriot missile batteries back to the region months after the US had brought some back home. No final decision on additional deployments have been made but the officials made clear if the Iranians were to pull back, the batteries might not be needed.
> The Pentagon currently believes Iran's actions could put US and coalition forces at risk in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar. US military and intelligence officials are monitoring the movement of the Iranian missiles around the clock but have yet to see a pullback."
> 
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/07/politics/us-iran-transporting-missiles/index.html
> 
> https://thehill.com/policy/defense/...iran-moving-ballistic-missiles-by-boat-report


Pull back from where? What are they talking about?


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## sepasgozar

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/07/politics/us-iran-transporting-missiles/index.html

Every day another bullshlt article. What is the significance of moving missiles by boat? Things are either moved by sea or land... and a Ballistic missile is pretty huge and inefficient to move by cargo plane. Next article will claim that the recent aircraft carrier moving towards Persian Gulf was prompted by shiite groups communicating on radio more frequently, or perhaps even a fart caught in the wind may be used as their excuse.

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## skyshadow

Arminkh said:


> Pull back from where? What are they talking about?



they want to add even more of these anti-missile systems near north of Iran and near south of Iran.


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## Sineva

sepasgozar said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/07/politics/us-iran-transporting-missiles/index.html
> 
> Every day another bullshlt article. What is the significance of moving missiles by boat? Things are either moved by sea or land... and a Ballistic missile is pretty huge and inefficient to move by cargo plane. Next article will claim that the recent aircraft carrier moving towards Persian Gulf was prompted by shiite groups communicating on radio more frequently, or perhaps even a fart caught in the wind may be used as their excuse.


True enough.Historically when dealing with fascists the excuse didnt matter,indeed if one didnt exist then they would create it whether it was poles attacking german rado stations,or non existent attacks by non existent Vietnamese torpedo boats or mobile iraqi weapons labs or aluminium tubes or.....or basically take your pick.

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## Aramagedon

Iran and Hezbollah missile and air defense power (watch it before youtube delete!)

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## skyshadow

*missiles on ships making sense of Iran's recent moves in the gulf*



https://www.fpri.org/article/2019/0...king-sense-of-irans-recent-moves-in-the-gulf/

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## AmirPatriot

Here's an idea of what Iranian ballistic missiles would be up against:

https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2019/05/analysis-saudi-arabian-air-and-missile.html

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## Mithridates

AmirPatriot said:


> Here's an idea of what Iranian ballistic missiles would be up against:
> 
> https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2019/05/analysis-saudi-arabian-air-and-missile.html


most of their lands are defenceless.

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## skyshadow

Mithridates said:


> most of their lands are defenceless.


yes but if you keep reading @*AmirPatriot *adds THAAD and PAC_3 and there radar coverage to the analysis. but nevertheless its big country and mostly empty.

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## AmirPatriot

Mithridates said:


> most of their lands are defenceless.





skyshadow said:


> yes but if you keep reading @*AmirPatriot *adds THAAD and PAC_3 and there radar coverage to the analysis. but nevertheless its big country and mostly empty.



Just like us they have a big country to defend and rely on defending strategic points rather than everything. Of course, everything is covered by radar just like Iran. Only difference is the Saudis have AWACS and a strong air force to fill the gaps.

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## skyshadow

AmirPatriot said:


> Just likeus they have a big country to defend and rely on defending strategic points rather than everything. Of course, everything is covered by radar just like Iran. Only difference is the Saudis have AWACS and a strong air force to fill the gaps.



yes i saw how you showed us when they moved there air defences after Yemen war there air defence is really pointed and mostly near Persian Gulf .

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## skyshadow

persian gulf missile test


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Mr.NiceGuy

skyshadow said:


> persian gulf missile test
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


So Iran gonna sink the carrier of USA by this rocket. Looks very effective. Not bad not bad at all.


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## skyshadow

Mr.BiceGuy said:


> So Iran gonna sink the carrier of USA by this rocket. Looks very effective. Not bad not bad at all.



well yes this missile and more . this this is Persian Gulf ballistic missile it has a speed of mach 3 _ 4 solid-fuel with a range of 300 kilometers and TV guidance.


















but Iran also have the world first anti-radiation ballistic missiles named Hormoz 1 and 2 they have a speed of mach 4 _ 5 solid-fuel with a range of over 300 kilometers they look for source of radiation like radars on the aircraft carrier.




















Iran also has Fateh mobin anti-radiation ballistic missile it has a speed of over mach 5 solid-fuel with a range of over 500 kilometers. and there are missiles like these ( Anti_ship ballistic missiles ) with a range of 1000 km.





















and this is Dezful missile the most likely 1000 km Anti_ship ballistic missile candidate with a warhead weight of almost 1 ton and the speed of mach 6_7 or maybe higher.

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> well yes this missile and more . this this is Persian Gulf ballistic missile it has a speed of mach 3 _ 4 solid-fuel with a range of 300 kilometers and TV guidance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but Iran also have the world first anti-radiation ballistic missiles named Hormoz 1 and 2 they have a speed of mach 4 _ 5 solid-fuel with a range of over 300 kilometers they look for source of radiation like radars on the aircraft carrier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran also has Fateh mobin anti-radiation ballistic missile it has a speed of over mach 5 solid-fuel with a range of over 500 kilometers. and there are missiles like these ( Anti_ship ballistic missiles ) with a range of 1000 km.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this is Dezful missile the most likely 1000 km Anti_ship ballistic missile candidate with a warhead weight of almost 1 ton and he speed of mach 6_7 or maybe more.



I don’t think Fateh Mobin is an anti ship BM. It uses a specialized seeker to pick up LAND target among backdrop of noise.

It’s easier to build a seeker to pick up a ship among the sea due to differences in temperature. It’s much harder to build a seeker to separate the building from the ground around it.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> I don’t think Fateh Mobin is an anti ship BM. It uses a specialized seeker to pick up LAND target among backdrop of noise.
> 
> It’s easier to build a seeker to pick up a ship among the sea due to differences in temperature. It’s much harder to build a seeker to separate the building from the ground around it.



well you are right as Iran said in unveiling that this missile is a ground to ground and ground to sea ballistic missile so it has 2 missions in mind.


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## skyshadow

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


whenever i see these tunnel lunched missiles i just think about the way they made these tunnels......the tunnel is more important than the missile itself

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## skyshadow

DoubleYouSee said:


> whenever i see these tunnel lunched missiles i just think about the way they made these tunnels......the tunnel is more important than the missile itself



yes, well the have the capability and the time.


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## TheImmortal

DoubleYouSee said:


> whenever i see these tunnel lunched missiles i just think about the way they made these tunnels......the tunnel is more important than the missile itself





skyshadow said:


> yes, well the have the capability and the time.



Tunnels are not that impressive in historical context. Nazi Germany built massive amounts of tunnels underneath Berlin among other places and that was in 1940’s without computers, advanced machinery, and advanced knowledge of modern day engineering techniques.

So let’s hope Iran can build tunnels nearly 80 years later.

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## DoubleYouSee

TheImmortal said:


> Tunnels are not that impressive in historical context. Nazi Germany built massive amounts of tunnels underneath Berlin among other places and that was in 1940’s without computers, advanced machinery, and advanced knowledge of modern day engineering techniques.
> 
> So let’s hope Iran can build tunnels nearly 80 years later.


dear friend it's not just a simple hole.........as it's shown silos for storing bunch of missiles and factories nearby the silos for producing and testing the missiles............these cities are being made 500 hundreds under ground..........all these specifics make them unique.........unless a simple silo like what you mentioned about germany is not big deal

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## skyshadow

DoubleYouSee said:


> dear friend it's not just a simple hole.........as it's shown silos for storing bunch of missiles and factories nearby the silos for producing and testing the missiles............these cities are being made 500 hundreds under ground..........all these specifics make them unique.........unless a simple silo like what you mentioned about germany is not big deal


agreed they are more like cities under ground not just tunnels

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## TheImmortal

DoubleYouSee said:


> dear friend it's not just a simple hole.........as it's shown silos for storing bunch of missiles and factories nearby the silos for producing and testing the missiles............these cities are being made 500 hundreds under ground..........all these specifics make them unique.........unless a simple silo like what you mentioned about germany is not big deal





skyshadow said:


> agreed they are more like cities under ground not just tunnels



Both of you please educate yourselves.

Germany 1930’s:
V2 underground missile factory






Iran 2019





Very similiar (even though pictures are taken ~80 years apart)

Nazi germany had underground weapons factories, plane factories as well as missile factories (V2 rocket) as well as rooms for soldiers and generals and ammo/fuel. Not to mention underground roads to avoid traveling above ground for high ranking officials.























This is in 1940’s, if Nazi Germany existed today they would have bases on the moon while Iran would be patting themselves on the back for doing what Germany did 80 years ago. Yet Germany did this without all the machinery, electronics, computers, etc that Iran gets access too.

Btw this is only 1940’s. Don’t even get me started on China-Soviet Union-US underground cities, underground nuclear bases, underground submarine bases, and nuclear proof bunkers that existed from 1960s till probably today.

Like I said nothing Iran is doing is impressive from historical standpoint. It’s pretty much In line if not BEHIND what major world military powers are doing today.

Lastly just to give you an idea of the advancement of the Nazi war machine towards the end of the war this was the most advanced submarine they had begun producing at the time





Type XXI Sub

Not even Iran can match that in today’s equivalent technology.

So we shouldnt applaud Iran for this. We should expect more. In history, powerful military war machines push the envelope of what is possible in their time.

They do not settle for what their enemies are doing or what other military powers did more than half a century ago.

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## Sina-1

TheImmortal said:


> Both of you please educate yourselves.
> 
> Germany 1930’s:
> V2 underground missile factory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very similiar (even though pictures are taken ~80 years apart)
> 
> Nazi germany had underground weapons factories, plane factories as well as missile factories (V2 rocket) as well as rooms for soldiers and generals and ammo/fuel. Not to mention underground roads to avoid traveling above ground for high ranking officials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is in 1940’s, if Nazi Germany existed today they would have bases on the moon while Iran would be patting themselves on the back for doing what Germany did 80 years ago. Yet Germany did this without all the machinery, electronics, computers, etc that Iran gets access too.
> 
> Btw this is only 1940’s. Don’t even get me started on China-Soviet Union-US underground cities, underground nuclear bases, underground submarine bases, and nuclear proof bunkers that existed from 1960s till probably today.
> 
> Like I said nothing Iran is doing is impressive from historical standpoint. It’s pretty much In line if not BEHIND what major world military powers are doing today.
> 
> Lastly just to give you an idea of the advancement of the Nazi war machine towards the end of the war this was the most advanced submarine they had begun producing at the time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type XXI Sub
> 
> Not even Iran can match that in today’s equivalent technology.
> 
> So we shouldnt applaud Iran for this. We should expect more. In history, powerful military war machines push the envelope of what is possible in their time.
> 
> They do not settle for what their enemies are doing or what other military powers did more than half a century ago.


In regards to the tunnels, where the nazi tunnels also 500m underground?

In regards to the submarines. The Germans had designed and produced submarines since before the First World War and had extensive battle knowledge from the that conflict where they both lost many but also inflicted a lot of damage. Hence their baggage into the ww2 was extensive to say the least. At the time the war ended they’ve had almost 50 years of intense submarine development. they put in the hours!

I always say that it is an iterative process. The more you iterate the better end result. The number of iterations (read produced hardware, be it POC or prototype etc) is far more important than how you end of with the iteration (through digital means or analog).

Iran’s ballistic rockets are great example where they’ve had a long and uninterrupted streak of iterating and thus are producing world class state of the art rockets.

Iran should of course not be satisfied for current results but definitely should be happy about the fact that in many fields the iteration process is underway and even accelerating, eg for submarines!

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## sha ah

The V2 was first produced in the 1940's was it not ? I'm pretty certain that these tunnels wereproduced in the latter stages of the war out of necessity. If only the Nazi's would have thought ahead & build most of their facilities underground. The Soviets simply moved their factories to the center of the country, in Siberia, away from the fighting & out of reach from the Germans. The Nazi's should have build most of their facilities underground, preferably in fortified positions under mountain ranges. Back in those days, nothing would be able to penetrate tunnels like that. Honestly the biggest blunder Hitler made was attacking the Soviet Union. The logistics of taking on the British & Soviets simultaneously didn't make sense. Once you added the Americans to the equation, it was game over. 



TheImmortal said:


> Both of you please educate yourselves.
> 
> Germany 1930’s:
> V2 underground missile factory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very similiar (even though pictures are taken ~80 years apart)
> 
> Nazi germany had underground weapons factories, plane factories as well as missile factories (V2 rocket) as well as rooms for soldiers and generals and ammo/fuel. Not to mention underground roads to avoid traveling above ground for high ranking officials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is in 1940’s, if Nazi Germany existed today they would have bases on the moon while Iran would be patting themselves on the back for doing what Germany did 80 years ago. Yet Germany did this without all the machinery, electronics, computers, etc that Iran gets access too.
> 
> Btw this is only 1940’s. Don’t even get me started on China-Soviet Union-US underground cities, underground nuclear bases, underground submarine bases, and nuclear proof bunkers that existed from 1960s till probably today.
> 
> Like I said nothing Iran is doing is impressive from historical standpoint. It’s pretty much In line if not BEHIND what major world military powers are doing today.
> 
> Lastly just to give you an idea of the advancement of the Nazi war machine towards the end of the war this was the most advanced submarine they had begun producing at the time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type XXI Sub
> 
> Not even Iran can match that in today’s equivalent technology.
> 
> So we shouldnt applaud Iran for this. We should expect more. In history, powerful military war machines push the envelope of what is possible in their time.
> 
> They do not settle for what their enemies are doing or what other military powers did more than half a century ago.

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## Aramagedon

I know one of these underground tunnels somewhere in Tehran. It’s very very secured & submergence. 99% of people who walk over this tunnels don’t know that they’re walking over a tunnel. Btw it’s just one of plenty underground missile cities in Tehran. For years until two years ago I believed that huge underground city is just a waterway made by municipality to prevent floods.



DoubleYouSee said:


> dear friend it's not just a simple hole.........as it's shown silos for storing bunch of missiles and factories nearby the silos for producing and testing the missiles............these cities are being made 500 hundreds under ground..........all these specifics make them unique.........unless a simple silo like what you mentioned about germany is not big deal

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## Sineva

Heres some rare footage of a pershing 2 marv in action


https://imgur.com/Rpc0hmt


You can see it in better quality at:
*gfycat.com/keyfemaleblesbok*
[for some reason it wont let me post the link normally]

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## DoubleYouSee

TheImmortal said:


> Both of you please educate yourselves.
> 
> Germany 1930’s:
> V2 underground missile factory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very similiar (even though pictures are taken ~80 years apart)
> 
> Nazi germany had underground weapons factories, plane factories as well as missile factories (V2 rocket) as well as rooms for soldiers and generals and ammo/fuel. Not to mention underground roads to avoid traveling above ground for high ranking officials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is in 1940’s, if Nazi Germany existed today they would have bases on the moon while Iran would be patting themselves on the back for doing what Germany did 80 years ago. Yet Germany did this without all the machinery, electronics, computers, etc that Iran gets access too.
> 
> Btw this is only 1940’s. Don’t even get me started on China-Soviet Union-US underground cities, underground nuclear bases, underground submarine bases, and nuclear proof bunkers that existed from 1960s till probably today.
> 
> Like I said nothing Iran is doing is impressive from historical standpoint. It’s pretty much In line if not BEHIND what major world military powers are doing today.
> 
> Lastly just to give you an idea of the advancement of the Nazi war machine towards the end of the war this was the most advanced submarine they had begun producing at the time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type XXI Sub
> 
> Not even Iran can match that in today’s equivalent technology.
> 
> So we shouldnt applaud Iran for this. We should expect more. In history, powerful military war machines push the envelope of what is possible in their time.
> 
> They do not settle for what their enemies are doing or what other military powers did more than half a century ago.


how deep were the German tunnel's under ground?!...........does anybody have any idea!.....i didn't find anything in the net.

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## Hack-Hook

DoubleYouSee said:


> how deep were the German tunnel's under ground?!...........does anybody have any idea!.....i didn't find anything in the net.


These are famous German bunkers as you see must of them never finished and their building started in late phases of the war
https://www.heritagedaily.com/2017/12/10-nazi-bunkers-subterranean-bases/115561
And many of them was just some bunker not under ground facilities foe example this weingut I


> The actual work on Weingut I began in July 1944. According to plans, the bunker would be made up of 12 arches stretching east to west in a barrel vault 400 meters long and 85 meters wide. The arches would have an internal height of 32.2 m, 19.2 m of which was under the ground level.


Or Siracourt V-1 bunker had only a height of 10m and was 7.5m underground
Or wolf's lair was only a 2.5m concrete and steel reinforced bunker
Or Blockhaus d'Éperlecque. Was 6m underground and was protected by 7m wide concrete walls .
Or keroman submarine base was not underground at all.
Perhaps the deepest one was Fortress of Mimoyecques that was 33m underground but abandoned by Germany.

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## Draco.IMF

and keep in mind Irans "super-concrete" which stunned western experts:

https://www.wired.com/2007/04/irans-superconc/

_"I designed a 2”x2” concrete cube with a compressive strength of 16,000 psi [pounds per square inch] at 28-days, a relatively high strength as standard concrete is on the order of 3,000 psi, typically. Now, The University of Tehran made several cubes between 50,000 to 60,000 psi, and possible stronger! I thought the aggregate to be made from quartz, and I also remember some steel fibers in the mix. These cubes exploded at failure, finally damaging the compression machine on the third or fourth cube (that machine was substantial, made for much larger samples). So, keep in mind this is unreinforced concrete (save the steel fibers) at an early age. Concrete becomes stronger, sometimes by orders of magnitude, over time.
_
And this was already available ~ 2006/2007

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## skyshadow

Hormoz 1 missile test

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## Sineva

Hack-Hook said:


> These are famous German bunkers as you see must of them never finished and their building started in late phases of the war
> https://www.heritagedaily.com/2017/12/10-nazi-bunkers-subterranean-bases/115561
> And many of them was just some bunker not under ground facilities foe example this weingut I
> 
> Or Siracourt V-1 bunker had only a height of 10m and was 7.5m underground
> Or wolf's lair was only a 2.5m concrete and steel reinforced bunker
> Or Blockhaus d'Éperlecque. Was 6m underground and was protected by 7m wide concrete walls .
> Or keroman submarine base was not underground at all.
> Perhaps the deepest one was Fortress of Mimoyecques that was 33m underground but abandoned by Germany.







Yes,and the massive dome of la coupole and its v2 launch base at wizernes,tho sadly it never became operational.
http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/wizernes.html

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## DoubleYouSee

Hack-Hook said:


> These are famous German bunkers as you see must of them never finished and their building started in late phases of the war
> https://www.heritagedaily.com/2017/12/10-nazi-bunkers-subterranean-bases/115561
> And many of them was just some bunker not under ground facilities foe example this weingut I
> 
> Or Siracourt V-1 bunker had only a height of 10m and was 7.5m underground
> Or wolf's lair was only a 2.5m concrete and steel reinforced bunker
> Or Blockhaus d'Éperlecque. Was 6m underground and was protected by 7m wide concrete walls .
> Or keroman submarine base was not underground at all.
> Perhaps the deepest one was Fortress of Mimoyecques that was 33m underground but abandoned by Germany.


so they were not super duper

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## zectech

DoubleYouSee said:


> how deep were the German tunnel's under ground?!...........does anybody have any idea!.....i didn't find anything in the net.



google will send you non-relevant results. Bing is slightly better. Yandex is better.

yandex search results in this:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...eich's_Secret_Plans_for_Underground_Factories

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## skyshadow



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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> These are famous German bunkers as you see must of them never finished and their building started in late phases of the war
> https://www.heritagedaily.com/2017/12/10-nazi-bunkers-subterranean-bases/115561
> And many of them was just some bunker not under ground facilities foe example this weingut I
> 
> Or Siracourt V-1 bunker had only a height of 10m and was 7.5m underground
> Or wolf's lair was only a 2.5m concrete and steel reinforced bunker
> Or Blockhaus d'Éperlecque. Was 6m underground and was protected by 7m wide concrete walls .
> Or keroman submarine base was not underground at all.
> Perhaps the deepest one was Fortress of Mimoyecques that was 33m underground but abandoned by Germany.





DoubleYouSee said:


> so they were not super duper



Reality is if you strike the entrances and then strike the support equipment (air flow systems, oxygen systems, power systems, etc) then that underground base becomes a coffin, no different than miners getting trapped in a collapsed mine.

So wether Iran builds its bases 500 meters or 5000 meters the same basic principles hold:

A) the base will have entrances

B) the base will have shafts

C) the base will have support equipment 

If these equipment are truly being kept “500 meters” below sea level and not “500 meters below the top of the mountain” then tempatures will rise as you get closer to the earth’s core and significant cooling systems will need to be put in place.

Hence why due to their conventional threat these bases are lacking as the second strike capability they provide is non nuclear.

Where as if they were nuclear, the enemy would have to worry that even if they destroyed the entrances and life support equipment. The soldiers inside would still be able to launch the retaliatory nuclear strike.

Lastly if Iran loses air superiority during the war then these bases are toast, as the US will likely drop MOABs on them to knock them out of commission for months.

So again just because something is underground, doesn’t mean it’s safe. In this case storing missiles underground then having to excavate them when the entrances collapse due to air strikes serves the same purpose for the enemy (delaying you from launching the missiles). 

In the age of 24/7 satellite surveillance the entrances could constantly be attacked. And in case of silos, bunker busters can be dropped on the silo covers.


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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> Reality is if you strike the entrances and then strike the support equipment (air flow systems, oxygen systems, power systems, etc) then that underground base becomes a coffin, no different than miners getting trapped in a collapsed mine.
> 
> So wether Iran builds its bases 500 meters or 5000 meters the same basic principles hold:
> 
> A) the base will have entrances
> 
> B) the base will have shafts
> 
> C) the base will have support equipment
> 
> If these equipment are truly being kept “500 meters” below sea level and not “500 meters below the top of the mountain” then tempatures will rise as you get closer to the earth’s core and significant cooling systems will need to be put in place.
> 
> Hence why due to their conventional threat these bases are lacking as the second strike capability they provide is non nuclear.
> 
> Where as if they were nuclear, the enemy would have to worry that even if they destroyed the entrances and life support equipment. The soldiers inside would still be able to launch the retaliatory nuclear strike.
> 
> Lastly if Iran loses air superiority during the war then these bases are toast, as the US will likely drop MOABs on them to knock them out of commission for months.
> 
> So again just because something is underground, doesn’t mean it’s safe. In this case storing missiles underground then having to excavate them when the entrances collapse due to air strikes serves the same purpose for the enemy (delaying you from launching the missiles).
> 
> In the age of 24/7 satellite surveillance the entrances could constantly be attacked. And in case of silos, bunker busters can be dropped on the silo covers.


that's the spirit.


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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Reality is if you strike the entrances and then strike the support equipment (air flow systems, oxygen systems, power systems, etc) then that underground base becomes a coffin, no different than miners getting trapped in a collapsed mine.
> 
> So wether Iran builds its bases 500 meters or 5000 meters the same basic principles hold:
> 
> A) the base will have entrances
> 
> B) the base will have shafts
> 
> C) the base will have support equipment
> 
> If these equipment are truly being kept “500 meters” below sea level and not “500 meters below the top of the mountain” then tempatures will rise as you get closer to the earth’s core and significant cooling systems will need to be put in place.
> 
> Hence why due to their conventional threat these bases are lacking as the second strike capability they provide is non nuclear.
> 
> Where as if they were nuclear, the enemy would have to worry that even if they destroyed the entrances and life support equipment. The soldiers inside would still be able to launch the retaliatory nuclear strike.
> 
> Lastly if Iran loses air superiority during the war then these bases are toast, as the US will likely drop MOABs on them to knock them out of commission for months.
> 
> So again just because something is underground, doesn’t mean it’s safe. In this case storing missiles underground then having to excavate them when the entrances collapse due to air strikes serves the same purpose for the enemy (delaying you from launching the missiles).
> 
> In the age of 24/7 satellite surveillance the entrances could constantly be attacked. And in case of silos, bunker busters can be dropped on the silo covers.



A main feature of the concept are break-out exits. Special drilling machines and pre-drilled shafts are used to create random exits along the mountain.

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## Aramagedon

*Latest Video Of Iran's Bond Villain-Like Ballistic Missile Lairs Shows Key New Detail*
*Iran has invested heavily in its subterranean ballistic missile infrastructure and is able to build, service, and fire them from underground.*
BY TYLER ROGOWAY MAY 29, 2019




TYLER ROGOWAYView Tyler Rogoway's Articles
twitter.com/Aviation_Intel

It is no secret that if Iran thinks something is of extreme strategic value it is also at the top of their enemies' targeting lists and it is safer buried beneath the ground than not. Since 2015, Iran has sporadically shown off videos of its elaborate and impressively large missile caverns that are not only designed to store and assembleballistic missiles, but also to launch through from deep cylindrical concrete apertures in the roofs of specially designed subterranean firing rooms. Now a new video has been released showing another interesting, but highly logical feature of these underground bases.

The video, which was posted by Iranian media just days ago, gives us a higher-definition look at some of the areas in one of the country's missile caverns. In particular, it shows a blast door and drawbridge mechanism that opens and closes when passing from one section of the cavern to another. This is a very important feature as it means that even if one section of the cave system is successfully struck or an accidental detonation of explosive components occurs and it is destroyed, the other sections would remain isolated and should survive.
The video goes on to show a number of missile components appearing to belong to the Qiam-1 short-range ballistic missile system in storage and being assembled for deployment from one of the base's underground launch rooms. The Qiam-1 has a range of around 400 miles.

We get to see a closeup of the missile launching through the thick concrete aperture in the launch room's roof from the outside. A screengrab from this section clearly shows the launch room illuminated as the booster is fired. In the past, there were some questions as to the authenticity of the launch portions of the videos, which were often shot at long distances. The missile then climbs away through the hole and past steep terrain. By placing the fissures on a sloped mountain, it would presumably make them harder to strike directly.





YOUTUBE SCREENCAP
You can clearly see the launch room and TEL from this video shot outside the launch room's roof aperture.

These cave complexes are not immune to conventional strike, but they are highly resistant to standoff cruise missile attacks, giving Iran time, at least under some circumstances, to fire off ballistic missiles even as an attack was underway. The U.S. has the capability to hit bunkers buried inside mountains without resorting to nuclear weapons via the gargantuan GBU-57 Massive Ordnance Penetrator guided bunker buster, but these are limited in number and require the use of a B-2 stealth bomber for delivery. The U.S. and its allies can also burrow down using smaller bunker busters dropped on the same coordinates in succession, but it is not clear if those munitions could effectively destroy such a large and segmented cavern system that is likely to feature long sections buried deep below mountainous terrain.

Other videos of the caverns show long lines of missiles sitting ready for deployment on mobile transporter-erector-launchers. As such, at least some of them serve as ready storage and deployment sites for land-mobile ballistic missiles systems, as well. These facilities are in addition to Iran's 'underground cities' where the missile components themselves are constructed. A handful of these are said to exist, giving Iran an 'end-to-end' hardened ballistic missile infrastructure. This concept is meant to act as much as a deterrent as anything else.

The huge investment Iran has dumped into its ballistic missile infrastructure is no surprise because of this fact. If a war were to spark off in and around the Persian Gulf, Iran would make its primary foe and its allies pay via ballistic missile barrages. This could quickly turn a limited conflict into a far wider and complex one. Even though they are not impenetrable, these facilities will be a major tactical problem to deal with during a conflict and will require plenty of combat capacity of the highest order to effectively neutralize. Clearly, the release of this latest video comes at a time of heightened tensions with the U.S. and its regional allies, and is a form of counter-messaging to the United States military's own aggressive messaging push in regards to the risk its forces pose to Iran's own combat capabilities.

Hopefully the effectiveness of these elaborate underground installations, both in terms of launching missile barrages over substantial ranges and surviving an aerial attack, isn't ever put to the test.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-ballistic-missile-lairs-shows-key-new-detail

Even aliens don’t have enough guts to wage a war on IRAN.
We are not Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, etc...

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## TruthHurtz

Why'd they ruin the aesthetic with pictures of Sean Connery and a huge israeli flag (proof zionists control iran) instead of just leaving it as is? Sometimes less is better, this is like painting over glass.


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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> A main feature of the concept are break-out exits. Special drilling machines and pre-drilled shafts are used to create random exits along the mountain.



I’m curious how you think an exit is going to avoid satellite detection. From what I saw of satellite images of Fordow, it has two main exits. In case of these missile bases, An exit needs to allow the removal of missile by something the size of a TEL. So it wouldn’t be a “shaft” but rather a tunnel size exit.

Furthermore, there cannot be “random” exits along the mountain because that defies logic. A TEL while having some off road capability cannot just go up and down rugged mountain edges while carrying a sensitive solid fuel missile. Thus any exits from the mountain would built near a dirt road and again visible to recon sats.

So that type of exit is not exactly going to be easy to hide especially with technologies such as SAR or even imagining technologies much more advanced than that (classified) that can pick up changes to earths foundation/dirt.

Like I said, US has been facing underground bases since 1940s through the Cold War and through rise of nuclear Communist China. It knows a thing or two about finding these types of bases. Never underestimate your enemy.

In the past, Soviet Union and China used such bases to cement second strike capability and project Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) Doctrine. The enemy could not be sure that it could relabily destroy all of the other party’s nuclear weapons in a first strike salvo, thus such bases created nuclear survivability deterrence.

In Iran’s case, these bases also serve as deterrence. However, once war breaks out deterrence is lost because the enemy will attack the bases irregardless because the worst case scenario and doing nothing are the same result for the enemy.

Worst case scenario for US is the base is still operational after an concerted attack by B-2’s carrying MOABs flanked by F-22’s for air to air protection. Iran then fires BMs in retaliation from said base.

If the US does nothing and leaves these bases alone, then Iran likely fires BMs during course of war from those bases anyway.

Like I said, same result.


Some examples of Iran underground missile bases

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## Arminkh

TheImmortal said:


> I’m curious how you think an exit is going to avoid satellite detection. From what I saw of satellite images of Fordow, it has two main exits. In case of these missile bases, An exit needs to allow the removal of missile by something the size of a TEL. So it wouldn’t be a “shaft” but rather a tunnel size exit.
> 
> Furthermore, there cannot be “random” exits along the mountain because that defies logic. A TEL while having some off road capability cannot just go up and down rugged mountain edges while carrying a sensitive solid fuel missile. Thus any exits from the mountain would built near a dirt road and again visible to recon sats.
> 
> So that type of exit is not exactly going to be easy to hide especially with technologies such as SAR or even imagining technologies much more advanced than that (classified) that can pick up changes to earths foundation/dirt.
> 
> Like I said, US has been facing underground bases since 1940s through the Cold War and through rise of nuclear Communist China. It knows a thing or two about finding these types of bases. Never underestimate your enemy.
> 
> In the past, Soviet Union and China used such bases to cement second strike capability and project Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) Doctrine. The enemy could not be sure that it could relabily destroy all of the other party’s nuclear weapons in a first strike salvo, thus such bases created nuclear survivability deterrence.
> 
> In Iran’s case, these bases also serve as deterrence. However, once war breaks out deterrence is lost because the enemy will attack the bases irregardless because the worst case scenario and doing nothing are the same result for the enemy.
> 
> Worst case scenario for US is the base is still operational after an concerted attack by B-2’s carrying MOABs flanked by F-22’s for air to air protection. Iran then fires BMs in retaliation from said base.
> 
> If the US does nothing and leaves these bases alone, then Iran likely fires BMs during course of war from those bases anyway.
> 
> Like I said, same result.
> 
> 
> Some examples of Iran underground missile bases


He means they have drilling equipment inside the base with half drilled exit tunnels. If and when the existing exits are compromised, they quickly open the half drilled ones.

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> I’m curious how you think an exit is going to avoid satellite detection. From what I saw of satellite images of Fordow, it has two main exits. In case of these missile bases, An exit needs to allow the removal of missile by something the size of a TEL. So it wouldn’t be a “shaft” but rather a tunnel size exit.
> 
> Furthermore, there cannot be “random” exits along the mountain because that defies logic. A TEL while having some off road capability cannot just go up and down rugged mountain edges while carrying a sensitive solid fuel missile. Thus any exits from the mountain would built near a dirt road and again visible to recon sats.
> 
> So that type of exit is not exactly going to be easy to hide especially with technologies such as SAR or even imagining technologies much more advanced than that (classified) that can pick up changes to earths foundation/dirt.
> 
> Like I said, US has been facing underground bases since 1940s through the Cold War and through rise of nuclear Communist China. It knows a thing or two about finding these types of bases. Never underestimate your enemy.
> 
> In the past, Soviet Union and China used such bases to cement second strike capability and project Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) Doctrine. The enemy could not be sure that it could relabily destroy all of the other party’s nuclear weapons in a first strike salvo, thus such bases created nuclear survivability deterrence.
> 
> In Iran’s case, these bases also serve as deterrence. However, once war breaks out deterrence is lost because the enemy will attack the bases irregardless because the worst case scenario and doing nothing are the same result for the enemy.
> 
> Worst case scenario for US is the base is still operational after an concerted attack by B-2’s carrying MOABs flanked by F-22’s for air to air protection. Iran then fires BMs in retaliation from said base.
> 
> If the US does nothing and leaves these bases alone, then Iran likely fires BMs during course of war from those bases anyway.
> 
> Like I said, same result.
> 
> 
> Some examples of Iran underground missile bases



Detection is not the issue, yes they would detect it.

@Arminkh explained. Of importance is to get the base operations going for at least a few hours until the entrance is bombed (not that this is a easy task at all) and needs re-opining or alternative new exits.

Each base may have dozens of pre-drilled break-out tunnels that can be opened as required.

TELs get in and out, reloaded and prepared in tunnels and spread out once a exit is temporarily operational. One must be always available for a salvo.

Flattening and road preparations are needed of course due to limited off-road capability of the TELs.

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## skyshadow

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1131955263727067139

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1131955263727067139



New Iranian missiles:

2000-2010 Iran unveils Ashura, Sejil 1&2, Fateh-110.

2010-present Iran unveils Khorramshahr Missile. Everything else Iran has unveiled is simply a derivative of either Shahab-3 (SCUD family) or Fateh.

Iran has not built a new missile design since Sejil which was over 10 years ago!! Even Khorramshahr is an old missile that Iran finally got around to reverse engineering.

Seems Iran’s Missile program is progressing slowly in area of new development.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> New Iranian missiles:
> 
> 2000-2010 Iran unveils Ashura, Sejil 1&2, Fateh-110.
> 
> 2010-present Iran unveils Khorramshahr Missile. Everything else Iran has unveiled is simply a derivative of either Shahab-3 (SCUD family) or Fateh.
> 
> Iran has not built a new missile design since Sejil which was over 10 years ago!! Even Khorramshahr is an old missile that Iran finally got around to reverse engineering.
> 
> Seems Iran’s Missile program is progressing slowly in area of new development.



well yes but Sejil 2 came out to be way more expensive than those missiles i do not now why and who knows maybe they did built new one's we do not know as you saw Khorramshahr missile came out of blue no one knew it was there and Iran's strategy wanted tactical missiles, semi ballistic one's for now the goal for Iran is to be superpower of ME and for that they want tactical missiles more, maybe in 5-10 years from now we go ballistic on missiles, and every one knows the technology is there if Iran chose to.

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## sha ah

When it comes to these underground missile bases, the main issue for the US is that they doesn't know where every single one of these sites are located. When it comes to the secrecy of these sites I'm sure that Iran has taken every possible measure & counter measure to keep their location a secret for as long as possible. The men working in these facilities obviously have to pass an intense vetting process & they must be handpicked individuals with a proven track record, loyalty & with deep family ties in the military & nation.

In case of a war, the first few Iranian missile barrages will obviously be the most devastating & effective. After the US strikes & continues to strike at Iran's military infrastructure, Iran will most likely continue to launch a limited number of salvo's at sensitive & important targets. the Houthi's in Saudi Arabia don't even have underground tunnels like these & although the Saudi airforce can't be compared to what the US would being to the table incase of war with Iran, the US is helping them & providing them with satellite intelligence. However despite all of their efforts, they still can't prevent the Houthi's from continually launching missiles & suicide drones at significant targets deep inside the kingdom.

In case of an all out war Iran would have a vast number of targets that it could hit in order to slow down or hurt the enemy. Iran could target command & control centers, ammo/supply depots and of course hitting airbases would be a no brainer because it would hamper the enemies airpower. The US navy would be another prime target & Iran would surely launch a massive initial salvo in an attempt to overwhelm the US navy's defenses. All these targets would strike a blow at the enemy, however if Iran were to target Saudi & Persian Gulf Arab states oil facilities & infrastructure & destroy a significant portion, this would have a much more devastating, residual effect on the enemy.

When considering the possibility of war, many pundits point at the possibility of Iran blocking the straight of Hormuz. For Iran this would obviously be a viable option, however realistically Iran could not possibly hope to block off the straight for very long, perhaps a few days, at the most a few weeks at best. Alternatively if Iran were to focus the efforts at crippling Saudi/Persian Gulf oil facilities, this would have a much more devastating long term effect for not only Iran's enemy's but also the entire world. If Iran were to destroy most of the regions oil infrastructure, this would cause the price of oil to triple or quadruple overnight. Countless businesses throughout the world would quickly be forced to cease operations & consumer spending would hit rock bottom especially in the west. In short, the world would experience a global financial meltdown the likes of which it had never seen before.

Just as a side note, one variable that not many pundits or analysts have considered. According to the UN, according to the latest information from a few years back, Iran was responsible for 70% of the worlds Opium seizures. Iran's enemies like to accuse the nation & its government of being a narco state, however looking at the facts, nothing could be further from the truth. I believe President Rohani mentioned this topic a few months back,however it did not garner much attention at all. In any case, if Iran were to be pre occupied with an all out war, drug dealers & drug lords, especially Opium lords would experience a golden age of sorts. Without Iran seizing the majority of the Opium heading to the EU & North America, the Opiate epidemic, which in many nations in the west has been declared a national public emergency would grow 10 fold.

As yet another unintended consequence, like dominos falling one after another, if you think about it, it would be the Taliban who would most likely benefit the most from the above scenario since they pretty much have a monopoly on the industry at the moment. With a surplus of income, the Taliban, who already control half of Afghanistan after 18 yrs of US occupation, would have the opportunity to buy advanced weapons & greatly bolster their movement, perhaps even pushing the small number of US forces remaining in Afghanistan over the edge. I'm not saying that this scenario is guaranteed to occur exactly in the way that I've described, however it often is in the case of war, there tends to be unintended consequences all across the board.






TheImmortal said:


> Reality is if you strike the entrances and then strike the support equipment (air flow systems, oxygen systems, power systems, etc) then that underground base becomes a coffin, no different than miners getting trapped in a collapsed mine.
> 
> So wether Iran builds its bases 500 meters or 5000 meters the same basic principles hold:
> 
> A) the base will have entrances
> 
> B) the base will have shafts
> 
> C) the base will have support equipment
> 
> If these equipment are truly being kept “500 meters” below sea level and not “500 meters below the top of the mountain” then tempatures will rise as you get closer to the earth’s core and significant cooling systems will need to be put in place.
> 
> Hence why due to their conventional threat these bases are lacking as the second strike capability they provide is non nuclear.
> 
> Where as if they were nuclear, the enemy would have to worry that even if they destroyed the entrances and life support equipment. The soldiers inside would still be able to launch the retaliatory nuclear strike.
> 
> Lastly if Iran loses air superiority during the war then these bases are toast, as the US will likely drop MOABs on them to knock them out of commission for months.
> 
> So again just because something is underground, doesn’t mean it’s safe. In this case storing missiles underground then having to excavate them when the entrances collapse due to air strikes serves the same purpose for the enemy (delaying you from launching the missiles).
> 
> In the age of 24/7 satellite surveillance the entrances could constantly be attacked. And in case of silos, bunker busters can be dropped on the silo covers.

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## skyshadow

Fateh mobin missile 

















*The upgraded Qiam-1 target impact accuracy test (10m CEP)*


*



*

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## Mithridates

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## skyshadow



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## Mithridates

this image sends a message to enemy: if you run to the deserts with your tent, we will find you and will put a missile in your ***.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> I’m curious how you think an exit is going to avoid satellite detection. From what I saw of satellite images of Fordow, it has two main exits. In case of these missile bases, An exit needs to allow the removal of missile by something the size of a TEL. So it wouldn’t be a “shaft” but rather a tunnel size exit.
> 
> Furthermore, there cannot be “random” exits along the mountain because that defies logic. A TEL while having some off road capability cannot just go up and down rugged mountain edges while carrying a sensitive solid fuel missile. Thus any exits from the mountain would built near a dirt road and again visible to recon sats.
> 
> So that type of exit is not exactly going to be easy to hide especially with technologies such as SAR or even imagining technologies much more advanced than that (classified) that can pick up changes to earths foundation/dirt.
> 
> Like I said, US has been facing underground bases since 1940s through the Cold War and through rise of nuclear Communist China. It knows a thing or two about finding these types of bases. Never underestimate your enemy.
> 
> In the past, Soviet Union and China used such bases to cement second strike capability and project Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) Doctrine. The enemy could not be sure that it could relabily destroy all of the other party’s nuclear weapons in a first strike salvo, thus such bases created nuclear survivability deterrence.
> 
> In Iran’s case, these bases also serve as deterrence. However, once war breaks out deterrence is lost because the enemy will attack the bases irregardless because the worst case scenario and doing nothing are the same result for the enemy.
> 
> Worst case scenario for US is the base is still operational after an concerted attack by B-2’s carrying MOABs flanked by F-22’s for air to air protection. Iran then fires BMs in retaliation from said base.
> 
> If the US does nothing and leaves these bases alone, then Iran likely fires BMs during course of war from those bases anyway.
> 
> Like I said, same result.
> 
> 
> Some examples of Iran underground missile bases



I don't think Iran is under any illusion that the U.S. can see them the question is what can the U.S. do about them? 

How many B-2 Bombers armed with MOAB's would the U.S. risk sending over protected Airspace? It's not like these bases have no defenses and it's not like Iran only has a handful of them and it's not like the U.S. can see how they are structured underground so even if they deploy half their B-2 fleet against missile bases how many missile bases would they actually be able to disable and for how long would they remain disabled?

And the fact that Iran knows that the U.S. can see them and monitor them via sat means Iran would no doubt take various types of countermeasures like building hidden and or berried entrances, building decoy's,..... 


Plus If like before Iran's main and only means of deterrence and retaliatory capabilities was it's Air Force against a power such as the U.S. they could have easily disabled Iran's ability to launch fighter by taking out our runways and fighters inside aircraft shelters and bunkers using cruise missiles and SDB's type ordnances released from +100km out and they would have only needed to focus on a dozen or so Air Bases during their initial strike and most of Iran's retaliatory capabilities would have been wiped out but today Iran has accurate solid fuel missiles like the Dezful, Zolfaghar and Fatteh that are relatively small and mobile, can be hidden anywhere, don't require large fuel tanks for fuel and can be launched against the enemy with relatively high accuracy very quickly to as far as 1000km away

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## PeeD

Well VEVAK, people must also realize that Iran has entered a new era in air defense. Sending B2's or airpower in general to knock out such heavily hardened bases is extremely difficult in Iran.

The reason I like the 3rd Khordad even more than the Bavar 373 is because it can be anywhere, in any warhouse, disguised as any truck. Just a single vehicle.

Anything picked up by any early warning system will trigger a 3rd Khordad or Tabas to come out and engage if anything is in it's kill zone. Secure transit or a SEAD campaign has become a monumental task with this new generation of air defenses.

This is the concept the IRGC-ASF has developed to protect its main strike assets: The missile forces.

Things have changed dramatically. No SA-2/HQ-2/Sayyad or HAWK sites will protect those bases, but 3rd Khordad and Tabas all around the country... Not a dozen of fixed early warning radars will find targets but a vast network of mobile systems of many different kinds.
The US never got a taste of anything even remotely similar to that. In fact the missile cities are almost immune to conventional warfare, their goal is to remain survivable against nuclear warfare.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> Well VEVAK, people must also realize that Iran has entered a new era in air defense. Sending B2's or airpower in general to knock out such heavily hardened bases is extremely difficult in Iran.
> 
> The reason I like the 3rd Khordad even more than the Bavar 373 is because it can be anywhere, in any warhouse, disguised as any truck. Just a single vehicle.
> 
> Anything picked up by any early warning system will trigger a 3rd Khordad or Tabas to come out and engage if anything is in it's kill zone. Secure transit or a SEAD campaign has become a monumental task with this new generation of air defenses.
> 
> This is the concept the IRGC-ASF has developed to protect its main strike assets: The missile forces.
> 
> Things have changed dramatically. No SA-2/HQ-2/Sayyad or HAWK sites will protect those bases, but 3rd Khordad and Tabas all around the country... Not a dozen of fixed early warning radars will find targets but a vast network of mobile systems of many different kinds.
> The US never got a taste of anything even remotely similar to that. In fact the missile cities are almost immune to conventional warfare, their goal is to remain survivable against nuclear warfare.








Tabas system with Taeer 1 ( A ) missiles, first generation

range : 50 KM

altitude : 20 KM











Tabas system with Taeer 2 missiles, second generation

range : 75 KM

altitude : 27 KM









Tabas system with Taeer 2 ( A ) missiles, upgraded second generation

range : classified

altitude : classified










Tabas system with Taeer 2 ( C ) missiles, fully upgraded second generation

range : 105 KM

altitude : 27 _ 30 KM















Tabas system with Taeer ( 1 , 2A , 2C )














3th Khordad system with Taeer 2C missiles













3th Khordad system with Sayyad 2C missiles the most advanced of them all, that we know

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## TheImmortal

Does anyone know why in this day and age, Air defense systems are still surrounded by a wall of dirt?

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> Well VEVAK, people must also realize that Iran has entered a new era in air defense. Sending B2's or airpower in general to knock out such heavily hardened bases is extremely difficult in Iran.
> 
> The reason I like the 3rd Khordad even more than the Bavar 373 is because it can be anywhere, in any warhouse, disguised as any truck. Just a single vehicle.
> 
> Anything picked up by any early warning system will trigger a 3rd Khordad or Tabas to come out and engage if anything is in it's kill zone. Secure transit or a SEAD campaign has become a monumental task with this new generation of air defenses.
> 
> This is the concept the IRGC-ASF has developed to protect its main strike assets: The missile forces.
> 
> Things have changed dramatically. No SA-2/HQ-2/Sayyad or HAWK sites will protect those bases, but 3rd Khordad and Tabas all around the country... Not a dozen of fixed early warning radars will find targets but a vast network of mobile systems of many different kinds.
> The US never got a taste of anything even remotely similar to that. In fact the missile cities are almost immune to conventional warfare, their goal is to remain survivable against nuclear warfare.







and there is another classified air defence missile named Sadid 630, i do not know its specifications but its huge God damn it, its a huge missile even bigger than Taeer 2C


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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> Does anyone know why in this day and age, Air defense systems are still surrounded by a wall of dirt?


i'm not sure but i saw some other countries do the same, maybe they hope considering a projectile heading angle it hit the barrier and reduce the damage or maybe low profile flight characteristic of cruise missiles is the reason.
also you are assuming that the CEP of enemy weapon is zero but in real world it is not, so it's better to have something to protect the system from shrapnels.

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## Blue In Green

Mithridates said:


> i'm not sure but i saw some other countries do the same, maybe they hope considering a projectile heading angle it hit the barrier and reduce the damage or maybe low profile flight characteristic of cruise missiles is the reason.
> also you are assuming that the CEP of enemy weapon is zero but in real world it is not, so it's better to have something to protect the system from shrapnels.



Sounds perfectly logical.

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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


> and there is another classified air defence missile named Sadid 630, i do not know its specifications but its huge God damn it, its a huge missile even bigger than Taeer 2C
> 
> 
> View attachment 563384



Weren't there a discussion about Sadid-630 being an antisat weapon? If I recall correctly from IMF days, someone estimated the size to be double of Taer. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Does anyone know why in this day and age, Air defense systems are still surrounded by a wall of dirt?



When they sink down the SAMs from a erected position, system and missile basically get protected from any munition that does not land inside the berm. The SA-2 is the most famous example here.

Overpressure/heat of a explosion or shrapnel expands roughly at line of sight. The 45° slope diverts the explosion and effectively a cone of protected space is created. Overpressure and shrapnel in this cone are not sufficient to go above the systems safety margin.

Then the other point is that nations like Iran have precision degrading counter systems. They try to decrease precision of the munition to a extend that it lands outside the berm. If the precision is only affected and degraded by 10-30%, it may be sufficient for the system to survive in its protective berm.

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## skyshadow

arashkamangir said:


> Weren't there a discussion about Sadid-630 being an antisat weapon? If I recall correctly from IMF days, someone estimated the size to be double of Taer. Please correct me if I am wrong.



well yes its very bigger than Taeer missile, i do not know if its AntiSat missile but it was shown to Mr. Khamenei as part of an air defence project named Alam Al Hoda.

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## Yaseen1

sadam Hussain also fired antiaircraft missiles at u.s jets in 1991 gulf war but failed to down any jet so better training and strategy to use weapons is more important than possessing weapons.To use sam alot of training is needed in simulated war like conditions but I doubt iran not have better training in this regard

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## gambit

A missile is a one-way or throw away weapon. Live missile firing for training is at least months in planning. You have to plan for a simulated war scenario. How many simulated air threats are you anticipating? From which direction(s)? Day or night? Will the simulated threat be continuous or a one-time event?

For a country that must import their defense, its stores of missiles will be limited as the country can only purchase X quantity per contract. This means live missile firing for training is even more scarce.

Even for a country that can produce its defense, stores are not unlimited. If the simulated threat is not plausible, live firings will be wasted and the crews trained for an imaginary threat.

No matter what, lack of intelligence and poor understanding of a potential adversary will produce flawed training scenarios and wasted ammo. Iran do not have the understanding of US air threats as people think.


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## Bahram Esfandiari

Yaseen1 said:


> sadam Hussain also fired antiaircraft missiles at u.s jets in 1991 gulf war but failed to down any jet so better training and strategy to use weapons is more important than possessing weapons.To use sam alot of training is needed in simulated war like conditions but I doubt iran not have better training in this regard


 The U.S and its coalition lost 39 fixed winged aircraft and 5 helicopters in combat to Iraq during Dessert Storm. With the exception of an USN F/A-18C shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 and an EF-111A that crashed while trying to out maneuver a missile from a Mirage F-1, all the other losses were caused by Iraqi air defence assets. Iraq was operating outdated Soviet systems(SA-2/3/6/8/9/13)and French supplied Roland short range air defence missiles during the war. Do you honestly think the Iraqis with all there foreign supplied air defence systems had better trainng than Iran that actually builds its own air defence Radars, missiles and simulators?

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## Sineva

TheImmortal said:


> Does anyone know why in this day and age, Air defense systems are still surrounded by a wall of dirt?


I believe thats actually referred to as a "berm".

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## Sineva

Yaseen1 said:


> sadam Hussain also fired antiaircraft missiles at u.s jets in 1991 gulf war but failed to down any jet so better training and strategy to use weapons is more important than possessing weapons.To use sam alot of training is needed in simulated war like conditions but I doubt iran not have better training in this regard


Saddams sams were a mixture of old soviet and western legacy[cold war] systems that were barely even up to the task of keeping iran at bay in the 1980s.In addition the iraqis used a centralised air defence system *KARI* that was based on the soviet model but even more rigid and without its depth or complexity,not to mention the fact that it was built by the french so the west knew pretty much all the secrets of the iraqi air defences...such as they were.Indeed the most advanced sams that the iraqis fielded were the *point defence* western roland 2 and the soviet sa8 gecko,both of which were late 70s/early 80s vintage and well known to the west.

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## SubWater

I want to mention hitting the entrance of the tunnels is not that much easy that many here thinks.
the most entrance are in the positions that cruise missiles can not hit it from good angle.
they are in the middle of the valleys with very sharp angle of the mountain that even is hard for warplanes to hit it.
They would waste many cruise missiles to hit one entrance which hide behind big wall of mountain.

Also I think aggressors have very narrow angle to attack entrances which help AAA guns and other air defense missiles concentrate on that directions to hit coming warplanes and cruise missiles. Clearly they can not hit entrance from back or sides in my assumptions.

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## gambit

TheImmortal said:


> Does anyone know why in this day and age, Air defense systems are still surrounded by a wall of dirt?


Explosions, pressurized water, and electricity, always seeks the path of least resistance.

A sloped wall of dirt, or of any material for that matter, directs the force of any explosions up and away from the valued target, this is assuming it is not a direct hit.

If you want to get into the math of the issue on why sand and other 'soft' material are desirable over hard materials like concrete, here is a good read...

http://aimt.unob.cz/articles/10_01/10_01 (7).pdf

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## SubWater

I search this random picture in the web from unknown place in earth






Just imagine if entrance of Tunnel be in the somewhere in this mountain walls, how much is hard for cruise missiles to reach that point even without air defenses to protect entrance.
Also the missiles are force to fly high and attack from very Predictable direction.


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## gambit

SubWater said:


> I search this random picture in the web from unknown place in earth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just imagine if entrance of Tunnel be in the somewhere in this mountain walls, how much is hard for cruise missiles to reach that point even without air defenses to protect entrance.
> Also the missiles are force to fly high and attack from very Predictable direction.


If there is a tunnel entrance, there will be signs of human activities. If the local terrain make it too difficult for cruise missiles, then B-52 raids will do the job.


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## SubWater

gambit said:


> If there is a tunnel entrance, there will be signs of human activities. If the local terrain make it too difficult for cruise missiles, then B-52 raids will do the job.


But even your B-52 must attack from clear angle and direction.


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## PeeD

B-52 will only employ long range stand-off weapons in any Iran scenario with the IADS intact.

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## VEVAK

SubWater said:


> I search this random picture in the web from unknown place in earth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just imagine if entrance of Tunnel be in the somewhere in this mountain walls, how much is hard for cruise missiles to reach that point even without air defenses to protect entrance.
> Also the missiles are force to fly high and attack from very Predictable direction.




Also another example would be if all the "visible" entrances are on the mountain on the right but underneath the mountain on the right is only being used as an entrance and decoy and in actuality all the tunnels storing missiles are actually under the mountain on the left, connected via an underground tunnel and most of the visible entrances on the mountain on the right are nothing but decoys and the entrances, exists & silo doors on the mountain on the left are all berried and will only be opened incase of war.....
So without knowing how the tunnels underneath is actually structured even with an MOAB all your doing is collapsing 1 tunnel used as the entrance and that even if you can collapse even that 1 tunnel. 

Also Tomahawks and most other cruise missiles unless armed with Nukes simply don't have enough destructive power to do much of anything to these structures and to properly collapse the entrances U.S. will need to use +4000lb bombs that would require the Aircrafts to get within ~40km of the target and within reach of mobile Iranian SAM systems hidden around these bases and that's just to properly collapse the entrances

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## 925boy

gambit said:


> If there is a tunnel entrance, there will be signs of human activities. If the local terrain make it too difficult for cruise missiles, then B-52 raids will do the job.


ha ha ! if only war was this easy for US. Luckily, US military and pentagon knows their technology wont make for a short "Iran campaign".

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## gambit

SubWater said:


> But even your B-52 must attack from clear angle and direction.


Actually...No. Our current guided bomb can hit targets at some angles.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...-let-them-drop-smart-bombs-like-never-before/


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## SubWater

gambit said:


> Actually...No. Our current guided bomb can hit targets at some angles.
> 
> https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...-let-them-drop-smart-bombs-like-never-before/


But bombs can not do U turn. for that reason they must have engine and that make them cruise missile not bomb more.
Just imagine entrance is north to south and your B-52 is coming from south to north.
you have only one option, cross the entrance take U turn then find good angle and then drop the bomb which that maneuver put your heavy B-52 at very dangerous position. Also what I am suggesting is that they provide only one corridor for invaders and concentrate most of defenses on that corridor. However I believe with use of terrain and mix of smart and complex plan of Tunnels like what @VEVAK suggest is possible to save entrances.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IRGC related companies are main guys who are digging metro Tunnels under cities and every body knows how fast they become these days for creating Tunnels. clearly main base is kilometers away from the main entrance and new entrances can build at the time of the war.

Iran even start to study and build localized TBM machines.




125 meter long machine. that is amazing.

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## Oldman1

SubWater said:


> But bombs can not do U turn. for that reason they must have engine and that make them cruise missile not bomb more.
> Just imagine entrance is north to south and your B-52 is coming from south to north.
> you have only one option, cross the entrance take U turn then find good angle and then drop the bomb which that maneuver put your heavy B-52 at very dangerous position. Also what I am suggesting is that they provide only one corridor for invaders and concentrate most of defenses on that corridor. However I believe with use of terrain and mix of smart and complex plan of Tunnels like what @VEVAK suggest is possible to save entrances.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> .



Actually bombs can do a U turn. Especially if they have wings on it. The only difference is the loitering time they can stay up in the air.



SubWater said:


> I search this random picture in the web from unknown place in earth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just imagine if entrance of Tunnel be in the somewhere in this mountain walls, how much is hard for cruise missiles to reach that point even without air defenses to protect entrance.
> Also the missiles are force to fly high and attack from very Predictable direction.



Actually it makes it easier for cruise missiles to avoid SAMs because of the fact mountains are blocking most of the radar.


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## aryobarzan

having eyes in the sky is also a double edged sword... the more you see the more you are subject to deception..so yes Iran will be using decoys to fool those eyes in the sky..just imagine a tunnel entrance with no depth...same tactics are being used in Syria against Israeli attacks...must be frustrating not knowing if your valuable missiles are actually hitting real targets or Tin cans!..

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## SubWater

Oldman1 said:


> Actually bombs can do a U turn. Especially if they have wings on it. The only difference is the loitering time they can stay up in the air.


That make them very slow and predictable. However I still have doubt about that. Also if what you say is true that mean they can not drop your U turn bombs from distance.


Oldman1 said:


> Actually it makes it easier for cruise missiles to avoid SAMs because of the fact mountains are blocking most of the radar.


No, when there is just one way to reach point.

It is clear Tunnels and under ground factories are still very useful.

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## Shapur Zol Aktaf

aryobarzan said:


> having eyes in the sky is also a double edged sword... the more you see the more you are subject to deception..so yes Iran will be using decoys to fool those eyes in the sky..just imagine a tunnel entrance with no depth...same tactics are being used in Syria against Israeli attacks...must be frustrating not knowing if your valuable missiles are actually hitting real targets or Tin cans!..


It's an interesting idea.. to mass produce cheap fake military equipment (tens of thousands, also mobile/movable ones which can be detected by radar), fake underground bases etc.






https://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/04/weekinreview/the-world-bombs-are-smart-people-are-smarter.html

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## skyshadow



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## raptor22

gambit said:


> If there is a tunnel entrance, there will be signs of human activities. If the local terrain make it too difficult for cruise missiles, then B-52 raids will do the job.


As I recall israeil not only failed to stop Hezbollah missile from firring but the number of missiles fired increased as war continued back in 2006 while the entire Lebanon is not more than 4000 sm which is nothing in compassion by Iran that is more than 600000 sm & Hezbollah is mostly active in southern area not the entire country ... and israel indeed enjoyed aerial and sea absolute superiority ... Hezbollah didn't have AD or air force or even a single boat to challenge israel S&D teams or any esp weapons to deter them but again they failed ... it is obvious that the nature of war was different but it doesn't change the reality that they failed .. Iran not only could challenge but has many means to destroy the source of thereat ... so I don't think it would be that easy of choice btw cruise missiles or B-52..

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## Bahram Esfandiari

raptor22 said:


> As I recall israeil not only failed to stop Hezbollah missile from firring but the number of missiles fired increased as war continued back in 2006 while the entire Lebanon is not more than 4000 sm which is nothing in compassion by Iran that is more than 600000 sm & Hezbollah is mostly active in southern area not the entire country ... and israel indeed enjoyed aerial and sea absolute superiority ... Hezbollah didn't have AD or air force or even a single boat to challenge israel S&D teams or any esp weapons to deter them but again they failed ... it is obvious that the nature of war was different but it doesn't change the reality that they failed .. Iran not only could challenge but has many means to destroy the source of thereat ... so I don't think it would be that easy of choice btw cruise missiles or B-52..



Israel started the War because they were Absolutely confident they would "destroy Hezbollah"!LOL

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## raptor22

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Israel started the War because they were Absolutely confident they would "destroy Hezbollah"!LOL


well for God sake it was "the birth pangs of a new Middle East" as Rice put it back then .. but it was a miscarriage ...


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## VEVAK

Oldman1 said:


> Actually bombs can do a U turn. Especially if they have wings on it. The only difference is the loitering time they can stay up in the air.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it makes it easier for cruise missiles to avoid SAMs because of the fact mountains are blocking most of the radar.



Wrong! In well defended area's like a Missile base it allows Iran to build various types of traps for any type of aircraft & or cruise missile attempting to fly low and use the terrain to stay below radar using various types of passive short ranged air defense systems because to actually stay below radar you will be restricted to only a few predictable routs.

As I said you guy's have been fighting cavemen with AK for too long. And the AMG-158 doesn't have the destructive power to collapse the entrance in any meaningful way. Meaning Iran could easily clear the rubble and reopen the entrance in under an hour if it wanted and the U.S. knows that so wasting a million dollar missile over something that Iran could easily clear up in under an hour is utterly absurd! To do any significant damage to the entrances of larger Iranian Missile bases dung inside mountains the U.S. will need to use +4000lb bombs.

Weapons like the AMG-158 & Tomahawk can only take out missiles inside of individual bunkers that aren't dug deep underground and Iran does have missile bases that also store mobile missiles like that too but the U.S. would still have to cross various layers of Iranian Air Defense systems to get there and deploy as many as 100 or more missiles against each of them if they hope to do any significant damage



Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Israel started the War because they were Absolutely confident they would "destroy Hezbollah"!LOL



They were actually under the delusion that they'd be able to reach the outskirts of southern Beirut in 2-3 weeks, after all they were going up against a force that had no air force, no Armored Battalion, not a single helicopter, no Navy, no Satellites, not a single SAM system,... 
Fact is as soon as the Israeli's figured out that they can't scare this enemy away and everywhere they went Hezbullah fighter kept coming at them, within a few weeks they cut tail and ran.

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## skyshadow

To destroy a base such as al-Sufran or Livu in the UAE, we need something about 20-30 Qiam missiles and 30-40 Fateh missiles.

Red Circle Radius Destruction power of Qiam missile.

Blue Circle Radius Destruction power of Fateh missile.









*Zolfaghar* missiles at there finest







one of the Qiam missile storage facilities








To fully and completely destroy a military base as large as the Bagram base in Afghanistan, assuming that the missiles have the pin point accuracy and the 100-meter destruction radius, we need about 100-150 short-range ballistic missiles such as the Qiam.

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## Mithridates

skyshadow said:


> To destroy a base such as al-Sufran or Livu in the UAE, we need something about 20-30 Qiam missiles and 30-40 Fateh missiles.
> 
> Red Circle Radius Destruction power of Qiam missile.
> 
> Blue Circle Radius Destruction power of Fateh missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Zolfaghar* missiles at there finest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one of the Qiam missile storage facilities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To fully and completely destroy a military base as large as the Bagram base in Afghanistan, assuming that the missiles have the pin point accuracy and the 100-meter destruction radius, we need about 100-150 short-range ballistic missiles such as the Qiam.


or you can just hit the runway and bring the air force to do the rest.

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## skyshadow

Persian gulf anti_ship missile hitting the target









Mithridates said:


> or you can just hit the runway and bring the air force to do the rest.



yes but in this case we want military base to be in unoperational mode for a very long time.

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## skyshadow

Zulfiqar impacts




















































Iran tunnel department

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


>



2:02 a rare glimpse at a 4 launcher Talash System 


skyshadow said:


> Persian gulf anti_ship missile hitting the target
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes but in this case we want military base to be in unoperational mode for a very long time.



You are not accounting for the fact that these bases have fuel and munitions storages. A few direct hits to the munition and fuel storages will cause considerable damage to the bases.

Also you don’t need to hit every square foot of the base to make it sufficiently inoperable. 

Lastly you are forgetting the use of multiple warhead missiles like Khorramshahr and sub munition warheads which are likely to be used on air bases.

But an important point is raised in that overall the destructive capacity of missiles is quite low compared to a fully armed bomber.

Hence why I think Iran should make unmanned supersonic bombers to complement the missile force.

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## Hack-Hook

Mithridates said:


> or you can just hit the runway and bring the air force to do the rest.


Half an hour work to fix that.



skyshadow said:


> To destroy a base such as al-Sufran or Livu in the UAE, we need something about 20-30 Qiam missiles and 30-40 Fateh missiles.
> 
> Red Circle Radius Destruction power of Qiam missile.
> 
> Blue Circle Radius Destruction power of Fateh missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Zolfaghar* missiles at there finest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one of the Qiam missile storage facilities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To fully and completely destroy a military base as large as the Bagram base in Afghanistan, assuming that the missiles have the pin point accuracy and the 100-meter destruction radius, we need about 100-150 short-range ballistic missiles such as the Qiam.


Come on you don't carpet missile a base , just hit storage facilities and radars and that base is useless (if you want to be unnecessarily painful you can also hit the barrack .

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## Smarana Mitra

skyshadow said:


> To fully and completely destroy a military base as large as the Bagram base in Afghanistan, assuming that the missiles have the pin point accuracy and the 100-meter destruction radius, we need about 100-150 short-range ballistic missiles such as the Qiam.


Launching such large number of missile is not easy as that will be detected.


Mithridates said:


> or you can just hit the runway and bring the air force to do the rest.


Useless to destroy runways. There are quick cement and other synthetic repair material ready in air bases for this reason. The runways can be fixed in an hour


TheImmortal said:


> You are not accounting for the fact that these bases have fuel and munitions storages. A few direct hits to the munition and fuel storages will cause considerable damage to the bases.


Fuel storages are not on top but in underground tanks. Fuel is liquid and hence can be pumped from deep underground without any problem. So, you can't just hit the fuel storage easily

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## sanel1412

skyshadow said:


> To destroy a base such as al-Sufran or Livu in the UAE, we need something about 20-30 Qiam missiles and 30-40 Fateh missiles.
> 
> Red Circle Radius Destruction power of Qiam missile.
> 
> Blue Circle Radius Destruction power of Fateh missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Zolfaghar* missiles at there finest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one of the Qiam missile storage facilities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To fully and completely destroy a military base as large as the Bagram base in Afghanistan, assuming that the missiles have the pin point accuracy and the 100-meter destruction radius, we need about 100-150 short-range ballistic missiles such as the Qiam.


D
Did you ever saw impact of missile??I did,and it was fucking old Luna...Those impacts you see when missile is tested are without explosive warhead or with very low explosive...test are performed so they lunch missile with very small amount explosive or without explosive warhead but they add weight or lunch higher verticaly(depending on tests)and than it is calculated... 1 ton of explosive with kinetic energy produced by true ballistic missile like Quiam is huge...You would need more quasi ballistic missiles like Zulfiqar to produce same impact of Quiam with same warhead... Because quasi ballistic missiles are much slower due low and non-balistic missile trajectory... Any way,you don't need 100 ballistic missiles to destroy one bases....Impact of one Quiam with 800kg warhead would be 400-500 meters at least while tactical ballistic missiles like Zulfikar or Iskander would have lower impact...missiles like Sahab and other MRBM go much higher and are much faster so impact growing with same warhead...Impact is not just hole in the ground....blast that missile produce travelling 6-7 mach with 800kg warhead would clean everything around...So,if you target airstrip you don't need hit closer than 309-400 meters from aircrafts,radars..etc and that is it....if you want to hit weapons and fuel storage than you need hit it with precise missiles....So mainly you target main airfield, weapons storage,electricity instalation,fuel storage and you would need target aircrafts.. but not more than 25-30 missiles per base...Than,when you do that...you is send aircrafts to finish job....For Iran preemptive attack is very important, because of many enemies they would can't allow US military deployment, they would have to act at first sign of build up...and that is why Iran reaction at US deployment was instant... Iran can deal with 1-2 strike groups and regional threat,in such scenario they can destroy enemy assets and Iran would have weeks till US re-deploy...But if US deploy large force and Iran don't react,than it change things drastically.But hope will not see this...I told you before,I would be worry when US navy position itself in red sea or Indian ocean instead P.Gulf...As long they are in P.Gulf we shouldn't worry.... Right now they are in red sea and Indian ocean, but only one strike group which is yet not enough for war..but if they deploy two more groups than it is alarm

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## Sineva

TheImmortal said:


> 2:02 a rare glimpse at a 4 launcher Talash System
> 
> 
> You are not accounting for the fact that these bases have fuel and munitions storages. A few direct hits to the munition and fuel storages will cause considerable damage to the bases.
> 
> Also you don’t need to hit every square foot of the base to make it sufficiently inoperable.
> 
> Lastly you are forgetting the use of multiple warhead missiles like Khorramshahr and sub munition warheads which are likely to be used on air bases.
> 
> But an important point is raised in that overall the destructive capacity of missiles is quite low compared to a fully armed bomber.
> 
> Hence why I think Iran should make unmanned supersonic bombers to complement the missile force.


The problem with unmanned supersonic bombers is that they will likely require the exact same sort of vulnerable infrastructure ie airbases that the manned aircraft would use,and which would likely be a priority target for irans enemies.This is probably a big part of the reason that the irgc decided to go for small to medium sized ucavs rather than large drones.The iranian air force on the other hand might just be looking at following that route as out of the three types displayed one was a full sized manned fighter/trainer that had been reengineered with a new nose section and a more modern j85 engine.Initially it was thought that this was simply going to be a test target for the fukour 90 a2a missile but it now seems likely that its something else instead.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> 2:02 a rare glimpse at a 4 launcher Talash System
> 
> 
> You are not accounting for the fact that these bases have fuel and munitions storages. A few direct hits to the munition and fuel storages will cause considerable damage to the bases.
> 
> Also you don’t need to hit every square foot of the base to make it sufficiently inoperable.
> 
> Lastly you are forgetting the use of multiple warhead missiles like Khorramshahr and sub munition warheads which are likely to be used on air bases.
> 
> But an important point is raised in that overall the destructive capacity of missiles is quite low compared to a fully armed bomber.
> 
> Hence why I think Iran should make unmanned supersonic bombers to complement the missile force.



i like the bomber option be it a UCAV or not, well IRGC said we would not use a 2000 KM missiles for a base that is 800 KM away IRGC said that they built these missiles for that option only and we did not count SAMs on that bases those have good chance of hitting 1/3 of those missiles if not more.



Smarana Mitra said:


> Launching such large number of missile is not easy as that will be detected.
> 
> Useless to destroy runways. There are quick cement and other synthetic repair material ready in air bases for this reason. The runways can be fixed in an hour
> 
> Fuel storages are not on top but in underground tanks. Fuel is liquid and hence can be pumped from deep underground without any problem. So, you can't just hit the fuel storage easily


 
yes 150 missiles it not easy but its the only option to stop the enemy before they get you.



sanel1412 said:


> D
> Did you ever saw impact of missile??I did,and it was fucking old Luna...Those impacts you see when missile is tested are without explosive warhead or with very low explosive...test are performed so they lunch missile with very small amount explosive or without explosive warhead but they add weight or lunch higher verticaly(depending on tests)and than it is calculated... 1 ton of explosive with kinetic energy produced by true ballistic missile like Quiam is huge...You would need more quasi ballistic missiles like Zulfiqar to produce same impact of Quiam with same warhead... Because quasi ballistic missiles are much slower due low and non-balistic missile trajectory... Any way,you don't need 100 ballistic missiles to destroy one bases....Impact of one Quiam with 800kg warhead would be 400-500 meters at least while tactical ballistic missiles like Zulfikar or Iskander would have lower impact...missiles like Sahab and other MRBM go much higher and are much faster so impact growing with same warhead...Impact is not just hole in the ground....blast that missile produce travelling 6-7 mach with 800kg warhead would clean everything around...So,if you target airstrip you don't need hit closer than 309-400 meters from aircrafts,radars..etc and that is it....if you want to hit weapons and fuel storage than you need hit it with precise missiles....So mainly you target main airfield, weapons storage,electricity instalation,fuel storage and you would need target aircrafts.. but not more than 25-30 missiles per base...Than,when you do that...you is send aircrafts to finish job....For Iran preemptive attack is very important, because of many enemies they would can't allow US military deployment, they would have to act at first sign of build up...and that is why Iran reaction at US deployment was instant... Iran can deal with 1-2 strike groups and regional threat,in such scenario they can destroy enemy assets and Iran would have weeks till US re-deploy...But if US deploy large force and Iran don't react,than it change things drastically.But hope will not see this...I told you before,I would be worry when US navy position itself in red sea or Indian ocean instead P.Gulf...As long they are in P.Gulf we shouldn't worry.... Right now they are in red sea and Indian ocean, but only one strike group which is yet not enough for war..but if they deploy two more groups than it is alarm



i know what you mean clearly i saw every missiles test and those with real warhead it has a huge impact but this simulation was on the impact of the test that was 100 m so yes i know a real warhead impact from a ballistic trajectory. so you say 30 Qiam is enough?

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## TheImmortal

Sineva said:


> The problem with unmanned supersonic bombers is that they will likely require the exact same sort of vulnerable infrastructure ie airbases that the manned aircraft would use,and which would likely be a priority target for irans enemies.This is probably a big part of the reason that the irgc decided to go for small to medium sized ucavs rather than large drones.The iranian air force on the other hand might just be looking at following that route as out of the three types displayed one was a full sized manned fighter/trainer that had been reengineered with a new nose section and a more modern j85 engine.Initially it was thought that this was simply going to be a test target for the fukour 90 a2a missile but it now seems likely that its something else instead.



No you don’t need same support infrastructure as manned airbase.

Case example: Cold War era D-21






Speed Mach 3+
Range: 5600 KM
Altitude: 90,000 ft


Iran could add 2 500lb PGMs or anti ship missile even if reduces to range to 2500 KM, it would still be sufficent to hit any target in Middle East.

Such a unmanned vehicle could be launched from small underground or hidden bases requiring only a few UAVs, some fuel, and munitions.

All this requires is a 1950’s era supersonic ramjet with sufficent operational life. Everything else is well within Iran’s capabilities.

Imagine a missile raid followed by an air attack by these UAVs either on a battle group or air base.

Not to mention the havoc these can wreck on oil facilities and infrastructure. By the time fighter jets take off the UAV is long gone.

Anything sub sonic or Mach 1 is useless as they will be destroyed by interceptor aircraft.


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## sanel1412

skyshadow said:


> i like the bomber option be it a UCAV or not, well IRGC said we would not use a 2000 KM missiles for a base that is 800 KM away IRGC said that they built these missiles for that option only and we did not count SAMs on that bases those have good chance of hitting 1/3 of those missiles if not more.
> 
> 
> 
> yes 150 missiles it not easy but its the only option to stop the enemy before they get you.
> 
> 
> 
> i know what you mean clearly i saw every missiles test and those with real warhead it has a huge impact but this simulation was on the impact of the test that was 100 m so yes i know a real warhead impact from a ballistic trajectory. so you say 30 Qiam is enough?


Well,it depend...but you have to understand that is something decided based on fresh intelligence and sat.images...If there are many aircrafts parked on air field than one missile will clean it all around 500 meters...but if aircrafts are in shield bunker clusters than you need missile or even two per cluster 4-6 bunkers thus you would need target munition storages,electricity and radars....So it depend,but missile are not used alone...if Iran ever lunch such preemptive attack,they will target air defense and air force assets with tactical BM to clear path for air force ,it is not like you have only BM...One old Luna (200-400kg warhead)create 8-10 meters deep hole and 30 meters wide...blast clean everything around 50-100 meters(depending if it hit sand or airfield...)Today explosive is better and as I said true Ballistic missile is much powerful with same warhead because it goes much higher vertically than speed up ...today warheads sometimes have boosters which is activated after warhead is separated and start failing... On other side tactical quasi BM are low attitude and fly like rockets but also newer missiles aka Iranian tactical BM or Islander are much more powerful,Dezful has warhead of 1 ton...Quiam 800kg but they can add even more if don't need max range...Anyway,back to the question, you can't destroy something forever... But you can disable it long enough to finish job...But one thing you can be sure,Iran will not fire just missiles...not with enemies like US or even S.Arabia...they must look wider picture and include US bases,and US navy...Defense is complex,you don't need destroy everything they have with missiles...

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## Smarana Mitra

sanel1412 said:


> Well,it depend...but you have to understand that is something decided based on fresh intelligence and sat.images...If there are many aircrafts parked on air field than one missile will clean it all around 500 meters...but if aircrafts are in shield bunker clusters than you need missile or even two per cluster 4-6 bunkers thus you would need target munition storages,electricity and radars....So it depend,but missile are not used alone...if Iran ever lunch such preemptive attack,they will target air defense and air force assets with tactical BM to clear path for air force ,it is not like you have only BM...One old Luna (200-400kg warhead)create 8-10 meters deep hole and 30 meters wide...blast clean everything around 50-100 meters(depending if it hit sand or airfield...)Today explosive is better and as I said true Ballistic missile is much powerful with same warhead because it goes much higher vertically than speed up ...today warheads sometimes have boosters which is activated after warhead is separated and start failing... On other side tactical quasi BM are low attitude and fly like rockets but also newer missiles aka Iranian tactical BM or Islander are much more powerful,Dezful has warhead of 1 ton...Quiam 800kg but they can add even more if don't need max range...Anyway,back to the question, you can't destroy something forever... But you can disable it long enough to finish job...But one thing you can be sure,Iran will not fire just missiles...not with enemies like US or even S.Arabia...they must look wider picture and include US bases,and US navy...Defense is complex,you don't need destroy everything they have with missiles...


You are making a big assumption that the missiles will hit with accuracy. Most of the ballistic missile have significant CEP error. That is why ballistic missiles are mainly used for nuclear warheads. It is rare for BM to be used for precision strikes


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## sanel1412

Smarana Mitra said:


> You are making a big assumption that the missiles will hit with accuracy. Most of the ballistic missile have significant CEP error. That is why ballistic missiles are mainly used for nuclear warheads. It is rare for BM to be used for precision strikes


We are talking about tactical ballistic missiles ,these missiles are designed for precise strike...Iscander has 5-10 meters CEP,Iranian Fateh family has CEP 10-15m ....Now they use same approach for MRBM...they build warheads guided and maneuverable till last moment with CEP 15-30m ,so no....I don't assume... I never do...Even of course, mostly we are speaking with very limited insights, so we can say that everything here is assumed..or one of many hypothetical possibilities. I follow Iran military for 20+ years and everything we know....is exactly what Iran show us at some point... I can't remember even one intelligence report from any source that was correct and even things we know,we were always surprised with Iran....So I learn long time ago,to always assume that thing Iran show,are few years old....seems they follow philosophy of showing one or two generation old stuff....They probably want to keep some strategic advantage with this approach.... So,I believe when they talk about anti ship missile based on Zolfaqar with 800km range....they probably have or working on one ASBM with range 1000-1500km...

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## skyshadow

Smarana Mitra said:


> You are making a big assumption that the missiles will hit with accuracy. Most of the ballistic missile have significant CEP error. That is why ballistic missiles are mainly used for nuclear warheads. It is rare for BM to be used for precision strikes


see this missile test and tell me if you see significant CEP error. its Khorramshahr missile with 1800 kg warhead it can use 3 separate warheads each 600 kg.

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## Sineva

Smarana Mitra said:


> You are making a big assumption that the missiles will hit with accuracy. Most of the ballistic missile have significant CEP error. That is why ballistic missiles are mainly used for nuclear warheads. It is rare for BM to be used for precision strikes


That may have been the case at one point,but even by the late 1970s you had the pershing 2 medium range missile with a cep of 30m using a radar guided warhead,and that was with late 1970s tech.The mx/peacekeeper icbm had a cep in the 40m range and this was using 70s era computer tech and a fluid-suspended gyrostabilized platform based inertial navigation system.By comparison iran has access to the very latest cots computer systems and solid state laser and fiber optic gyro based ins,and when you combine these with ballistic missiles and terminally guided separating warheads then you have a frightening degree of accuracy,one thats quite comparable to cruise missiles or air launched pgms in terms of accuracy and capable of doing just as much damage.I think the proof of just how seriously irans enemies take the threat of its missile arsenal is in the very large amounts of time,money,technology and effort that they`ve spent in developing as yet untried abm systems,which seems like a rather odd thing to do if you`re only up against weapons with ceps measured in 10s to 100s of meters.

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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


> see this missile test and tell me if you see significant CEP error. its Khorramshahr missile with 1800 kg warhead it can use 3 separate warheads each 600 kg.



People this video is from 2012.

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## Draco.IMF

تصویری از موشک قدر-اف در نمایشگاه دستاورد های دفاعی سنندج یکی از نکاتی که در مورد این موشک رسانه ایی نشد سرعت 12 ماخ در لحظه اصابت است!

An image of the Qadfar rocket at the Sanandaj Defense Achievement Show One of the tips that emerged from the media rocket is the speed of Mach 12 at the moment!

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## Websorber

Are the more photo's of this Sanandaj Defense Achievement available?
Looks good

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## skyshadow

*The Dezfoul missile and the IRGC’s underground precision-guided missile plant were unveiled, Full HD*


*



*

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## Aramagedon

*Egyptian Paper: Iran's Ballistic Missiles Deter US from War*






TEHRAN (FNA)- A leading Egyptian newspaper wrote that Iran's ballistic missiles have given the country powerful arms in the region, noting that the US will be the last state in the world to think of war against Tehran.

Mursi Ataollah, a prominent analyst, wrote in the Arabic-language al-Ahram paper that Pentagon's doubts about its power to confront Iran's retaliatory attacks have dissuaded the US from attacking Iran.

"It was not pointless that I said from the first day of increased US threats against Iran that the US will be the last country in the world which will think of war against Iran," he added.

Ataollah underlined that the number of war tools and fighter jets in bases do not decide the fate of any war in the region, and said that the number of ground forces and their agility to use their power is also important.

"For instance, today, using ballistic missiles is one of the most important arms of Iran's power in the region and the country also enjoys the power to attain advanced drones too," he added.

The Iranian Defense Ministry in a statement last Monday underlined the country's high military capabilities and deterrence power, and said that enemies do not dare to launch military war on Iran.

"The great founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran hoisted the flag of freedom and righteousness of the Islamic Republic which was engraved in the memory and the hearts of the lovers of Islam and the Islamic system forever," the statement said on the occasion of the 30th demise anniversary of the late founder of the Islamic Revolution Imam Khomeini.

No problem in West Asia can be solved without Iran's participation, it added, noting that in recent years the defensive and deterrent capabilities of the Islamic Republic of Iran have multiplied and no enemy dared to threaten the country.

The statement stressed the need for turning the existing economic sanctions into a golden opportunity to attain development and strengthen the country's defense capabilities, adding that Iran is determined to continue this path firmly.

https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13980320000421

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## Draco.IMF

*The footage shows that Dezful rocket motor Nozzel made with Carbon fiber composite due to weight reduction.*
*










Light reflections make the rocket motor body texture visible and this texture appears to be composite structure.
*

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## Oldman1

VEVAK said:


> Wrong! In well defended area's like a Missile base it allows Iran to build various types of traps for any type of aircraft & or cruise missile attempting to fly low and use the terrain to stay below radar using various types of passive short ranged air defense systems because to actually stay below radar you will be restricted to only a few predictable routs.
> 
> As I said you guy's have been fighting cavemen with AK for too long. And the AMG-158 doesn't have the destructive power to collapse the entrance in any meaningful way. Meaning Iran could easily clear the rubble and reopen the entrance in under an hour if it wanted and the U.S. knows that so wasting a million dollar missile over something that Iran could easily clear up in under an hour is utterly absurd! To do any significant damage to the entrances of larger Iranian Missile bases dung inside mountains the U.S. will need to use +4000lb bombs.
> 
> Weapons like the AMG-158 & Tomahawk can only take out missiles inside of individual bunkers that aren't dug deep underground and Iran does have missile bases that also store mobile missiles like that too but the U.S. would still have to cross various layers of Iranian Air Defense systems to get there and deploy as many as 100 or more missiles against each of them if they hope to do any significant damage



Iraq said the same thing when fighting rice farmers in Vietnam prior to Gulf War 1 conflict. Mother of all battles. The U.S. is capable of dealing with such defenses. Its no different when you see them testing missiles and bombs against hardened bunkers and caves. You saw similar tests when Syria's airbases were bombed with hardened bunkers that look similar. Why not in the mountains?












skyshadow said:


> To destroy a base such as al-Sufran or Livu in the UAE, we need something about 20-30 Qiam missiles and 30-40 Fateh missiles.
> 
> Red Circle Radius Destruction power of Qiam missile.
> 
> Blue Circle Radius Destruction power of Fateh missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Zolfaghar* missiles at there finest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one of the Qiam missile storage facilities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To fully and completely destroy a military base as large as the Bagram base in Afghanistan, assuming that the missiles have the pin point accuracy and the 100-meter destruction radius, we need about 100-150 short-range ballistic missiles such as the Qiam.



Assuming all the missiles were able to accurately hit and avoid defenses.



Mithridates said:


> or you can just hit the runway and bring the air force to do the rest.



Runways can be repaired not to mention you have highways that can be used as runways. So in other words you have to bomb more.


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## CAN_TR

Dezful missiles.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138691988491046912

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## VEVAK

Oldman1 said:


> Iraq said the same thing when fighting rice farmers in Vietnam prior to Gulf War 1 conflict. Mother of all battles. The U.S. is capable of dealing with such defenses. Its no different when you see them testing missiles and bombs against hardened bunkers and caves. You saw similar tests when Syria's airbases were bombed with hardened bunkers that look similar. Why not in the mountains?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming all the missiles were able to accurately hit and avoid defenses.
> 
> 
> 
> Runways can be repaired not to mention you have highways that can be used as runways. So in other words you have to bomb more.



If you notice in the U.S. Tomahawk strikes in Syria the missiles didn't collapse the bunkers, rather used a penetrating warhead to penetrate and then damage & or destroy whatever that was inside. And even 1100lb warhead like what the AMG-158 wouldn't be enough to collapse the entrances in any meaningful way 

And in Iranian underground missile base the missiles aren't stored in and around the entrance but rather stored deep inside the maintains in areas that are +200 feet underground and they are stored that way because Iran is aware of American capabilities and weapons like the GBU-28 and others and since in Iran Mountains make up most of our terrain they become a natural cover and in the past 2 decades Iran's become quite officiant at building underground tunnels and bases and anyone that's ever rode on Tehran's Metro station knows that this is not some kind of a bluff because in some areas of Tehran the metro stations are located as deep as 164ft under ground so just imagine how deep Iranian missiles bases go.

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## Raghfarm007

Find it funny how Ameritards talk about how they kicked Iraq´s *** in 1991 Gulf war.... yet are cluless that Iraq had just come out of an 8 year devestating war, and also sent all of their Air force to Iran for "safe keeping". America basically beat a dead country and still brags about it..... and the Ameritards some how thing a war with Iran will basically end the same way.

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## VEVAK

Raghfarm007 said:


> Find it funny how Ameritards talk about how they kicked Iraq´s *** in 1991 Gulf war.... yet are cluless that Iraq had just come out of an 8 year devestating war, and also sent all of their Air force to Iran for "safe keeping". America basically beat a dead country and still brags about it..... and the Ameritards some how thing a war with Iran will basically end the same way.



Yup, however the Iran-Iraq war was simply one of a long list of reasons that lead to Saddam losing but not in 1991 because the U.S. war against Iraq simply started in 91 but it actually never ended....
From 1992-2002 not a single week went by where Americans weren't flying sorties over Iraq and during that time not a single year went by where the Americans didn't conduct mass bombings and missile strikes against Iraqi military targets and yes they sold it to the public and to the world under a humanitarian no fly zone but what the Americans were really doing was systematically taking out Iraqi Air Defenses, Missile stockpiles and weapons depots as a prelude to the 2003 invasion. And yes in 91 Americans won a major objective by scaring Saddam to withdraw from Kuwait but the war never stopped, U.S. simply changed tactics for if Iraq in 91 was so easily defeated then why spend hundreds of billions of dollars over the next decade bombing the hell out of that country and systematically taking down it's air defenses? 
Also during the Iran-Iraq war the only reason Saddam wasn't taken out by Iran within 2-3 years is because U.S., USSR, most of Europe & Saudi Arabia all pitched in to give him Money, Weapons, Intel & political support all of which Saddam lost after he fell for the trap and invaded Kuwait. As for the weapons stockpile that was given to him, sophisticated high end military gear and platforms almost always require sophisticated maintenance and upkeep with replacement parts & weapons so a good portion of the sophisticated military gear that was given to him slowly became useless or in the case of Iraqi communication systems a major vulnerability. 
Also, Iraq's demographics and Saddam's paranoia against Iraqi Shiite and Kurds played a large role in his demise for by the 2003 invasion Iraq had less than 1.5 Million Sunni Arab Men age 16-60 in all of the country many of whom weren't and by the most part didn't fight a hopeless war against the U.S. in a country where they were well out numbered by Iraqi's that wanted Saddam gone.

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## 925boy

VEVAK said:


> If you notice in the U.S. Tomahawk strikes in Syria the missiles didn't collapse the bunkers, rather used a penetrating warhead to penetrate and then damage & or destroy whatever that was inside. And even 1100lb warhead like what the AMG-158 wouldn't be enough to collapse the entrances in any meaningful way
> 
> And in Iranian underground missile base the missiles aren't stored in and around the entrance but rather stored deep inside the maintains in areas that are +200 feet underground and they are stored that way because Iran is aware of American capabilities and weapons like the GBU-28 and others and since in Iran Mountains make up most of our terrain they become a natural cover and in the past 2 decades Iran's become quite officiant at building underground tunnels and bases and anyone that's ever rode on Tehran's Metro station knows that this is not some kind of a bluff because in some areas of Tehran the metro stations are located as deep as 164ft under ground so just imagine how deep Iranian missiles bases go.


ALso, the presence of SERIOUS mountains in any country automatically commits the aggressor to send in ground forces because air attacks are already assumed to be less effective in hilly countries. Good example is Afghanistan. So already, US WILL need ground troops for any military action more escalated than "strong warning" level IMO.

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## skyshadow

*
For first time a photograph of Iranian Underground Command and Control Center mockup.*
*





*

*New information released about IRGC 2017 missile attack on deir alzor*
*

Two zolfaghar TBM lunched on two targets -ammunition storage (missile with HE Warhead) -chemical storge for suicide attacks (missile with Fragmentation Warhead)


100 m destruction radius









Another impacts: One missile impacted on ISIS underground Tunnel(Fragmentation Warhead Another missile lunched on ISIS hospital building(HE Warhead)











*


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## yavar



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## Aramagedon

Dezful mrbm 


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## Sineva

Heres a site with some interesting design proposals for underground control centers for the old imperial navy and airforce back in the early 70s
http://www.dchamberlinarchitect.com/architecture-rmp-ISIRAN AIRFORCE & NAVY DEFENSE CENTERS.htm
















This one especially looks pretty hi tech by 1974 standards with its multiple projection screens.

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## Oldman1

VEVAK said:


> If you notice in the U.S. Tomahawk strikes in Syria the missiles didn't collapse the bunkers, rather used a penetrating warhead to penetrate and then damage & or destroy whatever that was inside. And even 1100lb warhead like what the AMG-158 wouldn't be enough to collapse the entrances in any meaningful way
> 
> And in Iranian underground missile base the missiles aren't stored in and around the entrance but rather stored deep inside the maintains in areas that are +200 feet underground and they are stored that way because Iran is aware of American capabilities and weapons like the GBU-28 and others and since in Iran Mountains make up most of our terrain they become a natural cover and in the past 2 decades Iran's become quite officiant at building underground tunnels and bases and anyone that's ever rode on Tehran's Metro station knows that this is not some kind of a bluff because in some areas of Tehran the metro stations are located as deep as 164ft under ground so just imagine how deep Iranian missiles bases go.



Yeah and if you notice the missiles and bombs have the capability to punch through very deep in the mountains. You are still not aware of U.S. capabilities. Even now. I mean even now you didn't mention the newer bombs because you yourself are not aware of it. All you mentioned was the GBU-28 from the Gulf War.


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## Mr Iran Eye

Oldman1 said:


> Yeah and if you notice the missiles and bombs have the capability to punch through very deep in the mountains. You are still not aware of U.S. capabilities. Even now. I mean even now you didn't mention the newer bombs because you yourself are not aware of it. All you mentioned was the GBU-28 from the Gulf War.



The USA has a bomb that holds in the hands and able to destroy the planet Jupiter. They are strong these Americans and especially they are not idiots

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## Oldman1

Mr Iran Eye said:


> The USA has a bomb that holds in the hands and able to destroy the planet Jupiter. They are strong these Americans and especially they are not idiots



Iran has a bomb that could wipe out the oceans as they claimed.

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## Caspian Parsi

Oldman1 said:


> Iran has a bomb that could wipe out the oceans as they claimed.


Its actuality a chemical weapon , its called Ayatollah Turd and its deadly ..

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## sha ah

I don't know if they would launch 100, but maybe 20-30, even if half hit it's good enough. Iran will probably launch missiles with larger warheads at vital installations.



skyshadow said:


> To destroy a base such as al-Sufran or Livu in the UAE, we need something about 20-30 Qiam missiles and 30-40 Fateh missiles.
> 
> Red Circle Radius Destruction power of Qiam missile.
> 
> Blue Circle Radius Destruction power of Fateh missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Zolfaghar* missiles at there finest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one of the Qiam missile storage facilities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To fully and completely destroy a military base as large as the Bagram base in Afghanistan, assuming that the missiles have the pin point accuracy and the 100-meter destruction radius, we need about 100-150 short-range ballistic missiles such as the Qiam.



Iraq never had the weapons & preparation that Iran has. Iran has well over 100,000 missiles, some say more than 200,000. Most of Iran's missile launchers & air defense batteries are highly mobile which makes them extremely difficult to target. Look at Saudi Arabia, with the 3rd largest military budget on earth, more than Russia. Saudi's have help from the USA, with US jets & satellite intelligence, yet they can't stop the rag tag Houthi rebels from Yemen, the poorest Arab country on earth, from constantly targeting their pipelines & airports with old modified scuds & plastic drones. 

Another thing you have to understand is that most of Iran's mobile assets are hidden deep underground in secret fortified bunker. Iran has hundreds of such bunkers and networks of tunnels spread throughout the country. Some are underneath mountain ranges. The problem is that the US doesn't know where most of them are. You're comparing little concrete aircraft shelters in Syria to bases which are half a km or more underground, protected by layers of military grade concrete & underneath mountain ranges ? 

Iran has 5000 air defense sites. For the US to attack Iran, the US would require a hell of alot more assets & personnel in the region than what it has now. That buildup would takes months but as soon as Iran became aware of their intention, Iran would act & strike first. All Iran needs to do is destroy Saudi Arabia's oil facilities. It would cause the price of oil to quadruple or even more overnight. The economy in the US would shut down. Millions unemployed, riots, etc & countless companies that are in debt or on the edge would go bankrupt, exacerbating problems. Aside from the US, the entire global economy would experience a serious meltdown that would take decades to recover from. 

Attacking Iran is not an easy task & no cake walk. Talk is one things, bluffs about fire & fury are another, but going to war with Iran would be a disaster for the US, not worth it. 




Oldman1 said:


> Iraq said the same thing when fighting rice farmers in Vietnam prior to Gulf War 1 conflict. Mother of all battles. The U.S. is capable of dealing with such defenses. Its no different when you see them testing missiles and bombs against hardened bunkers and caves. You saw similar tests when Syria's airbases were bombed with hardened bunkers that look similar. Why not in the mountains?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming all the missiles were able to accurately hit and avoid defenses.
> 
> 
> 
> Runways can be repaired not to mention you have highways that can be used as runways. So in other words you have to bomb more.





Oldman1 said:


> Yeah and if you notice the missiles and bombs have the capability to punch through very deep in the mountains. You are still not aware of U.S. capabilities. Even now. I mean even now you didn't mention the newer bombs because you yourself are not aware of it. All you mentioned was the GBU-28 from the Gulf War.



The problem is that Iran has hundreds of underground missile bases & their networks of tunnels run underneath the entire nation. The people who work in these bases are hand picked & I doubt if the US knows where they all are. Even if they know where some of them are, I doubt if a bunker buster will go through an entire mountain & then cut through half a km of military grade, layered concrete that is specially designed to resist bombs. The MOP bunker buster, for example, can only penetrate 60 feet of concrete & that's not even the kind of concrete Iran has & Iran layers it's concrete to make it more effective. 

Another issue is that Iran has 5000+ air defense sites & for the US to launch an attack on Iran, they would need a hell of alot more assets & personnel than what they have in the region now. That buildup would be obvious & as soonas Iran became aware, it would launch a pre-emptive strike. All Iran has to do is target Saudi Arabia's oil facilities. Once the price of oil quadruples, it will lead to a global financial meltdown. It's just not worth it from a financial standpoint for the US to wage a war against Iran. It's not feasible.

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## VEVAK

Oldman1 said:


> Yeah and if you notice the missiles and bombs have the capability to punch through very deep in the mountains. You are still not aware of U.S. capabilities. Even now. I mean even now you didn't mention the newer bombs because you yourself are not aware of it. All you mentioned was the GBU-28 from the Gulf War.



I mentioned the GBU-28 because it's a 5000lb bomb an F-15 can carry and it's capable of penetrating over 100ft! Also without knowing how the tunnels are structured and where the missiles are stored or if the tunnels are re enforced with concrete or not it really doesn't matter how deep you can penetrate! Which is why U.S. wants access to all Iranian Military bases and it's also why Iran will never give it to them!

U.S. makes public most of it's ordnances and they most times they overplay their capabilities to create a fear factor you can simply do a search on wiki and yes U.S. also has weapons that they don't make public too
BUT to hit and destroy Iranian Missile Bases much like Iran's Fordow facility the U.S. will need to use weapons like the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Ordnance_Penetrator or the larger MOAB
And these are weapons that weighs as much as an F-16 so you would need a bomber to get inside a highly protected Airspace and Iran would shoot it down just as easily as we shot down the RQ-4 (Or MQ-4) that was flying at over 50,000 feet!!!!














U.S. stealth tech used in the trident that was shot down by Iran using an Iranian BUILT SAM system flying at over 50,000ft! So yea that wasn't just any aircraft or just any RQ-4

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> U.S. stealth tech used in the trident that was shot down by Iran using an Iranian BUILT SAM system flying at over 50,000ft! So yea that wasn't just any aircraft or just any RQ-4



Do you have proof that it was flying at over 50,000 feet?

While that is an altitude it can fly, I read in this instance it was flying just over 20,000 feet to gain better intelligence pictures.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Do you have proof that it was flying at over 50,000 feet?
> 
> While that is an altitude it can fly, I read in this instance it was flying just over 20,000 feet to gain better intelligence pictures.



Both the RQ-4 and the MQ-4 are designed to fly at extremely high altitude and above Airliners and gather intel at those altitude so they don't need to come down to get better intel! And their service ceiling is really higher than what they have on wiki These are UAV's with a price range of $120Million to $220 Million so they have no need to reduce altitude to gather intel for they are designed to gather long range intel from high altitudes

Now the U.S. to save face is going to claim that this was an outdated RQ-4A that was flying lower than usual and that is only natural for they do NOT want to loose their fear factor! 

As for what prof I have other than the word of mouth NOTHING! But I can tell you from the wreckage shown that the UAV had extensive RCS reduction added on.

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> Do you have proof that it was flying at over 50,000 feet?
> 
> While that is an altitude it can fly, I read in this instance it was flying just over 20,000 feet to gain better intelligence pictures.


That's something in line of MQ-4C an RQ-4 don't do such things.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Do you have proof that it was flying at over 50,000 feet?
> 
> While that is an altitude it can fly, I read in this instance it was flying just over 20,000 feet to gain better intelligence pictures.



https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...دام-سامانه-پدافندی-ایرانی-شکار-شاهین-آمریکایی

If you can read farsi according to Iran it was at an altitude of 52,000 ft when hit!

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## raptor22

VEVAK said:


> https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...دام-سامانه-پدافندی-ایرانی-شکار-شاهین-آمریکایی
> 
> If you can read farsi according to Iran it was at an altitude of 54,000 ft when hit!
> View attachment 566386

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## WinterNights

VEVAK said:


> https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...دام-سامانه-پدافندی-ایرانی-شکار-شاهین-آمریکایی
> 
> If you can read farsi according to Iran it was at an altitude of 52,000 ft when hit!
> View attachment 566386



Damn bro, and they only fired 1 missile. They have this much confidence in their systems.

I kiss the hands of IRGC.

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## Sina-1

VEVAK said:


> https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...دام-سامانه-پدافندی-ایرانی-شکار-شاهین-آمریکایی
> 
> If you can read farsi according to Iran it was at an altitude of 52,000 ft when hit!
> View attachment 566386


As long as the Americans don’t directly rebut it, then they are indirectly confirming it!

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## VEVAK

WinterNights said:


> Damn bro, and they only fired 1 missile. They have this much confidence in their systems.
> 
> I kiss the hands of IRGC.



With the 3rd of Khordad systems my worry has always been on the Missiles of the system and not the system it's self and it seems Iran's continuous upgrading of the missiles have so far payed off & that's a path Iran needs to continue down on! And no doubt being able to hit a moving low RCS target at +50,000 feet using a "highly mobile" domestically produced Air Defense system is impressive and it sends a clear message because these are systems whos radars (PESA radar on the launch platform) don't necessarily need to stay on for any more than a few minutes and can quickly pack up and move so targeting them will not be so easy. And Iran is only just getting started on SAM systems so just imagine what we will achieve in the next decade or two. 

IRGC as always did a great job at defending our Air Space and making it known that there are redlines that Iran will not allow anyone to cross and that goes for everyone even the world most powerful superpower! And that Iranian built Air Defense Systems are more than capable of going up against U.S. low RCS aircraft just incase the Americans had any doubts that it could. 

And if our guys put a little effort on design, and our government puts a little funding toward mass producing components like processor, solid state hard drives & memory storage,.... Iran could become a major weapon exporter in various high tech fields. From SAM systems, Helicopters, Frigates, UAV's, UGV, Communication, IT & Cyber security, PGM, ISW,...



Sina-1 said:


> As long as the Americans don’t directly rebut it, then they are indirectly confirming it!



Why trust anything the Americans say? Clearly it's in their interest to claim that this was a low end early versions of the Global Hawk that was flying lower than usual & that's why Iranians were able to hit it with their SAM's.... 
These are people that sold a decade long areal bombing campaign against Iraq to their own people and the world as a Humanitarian No Fly Zone! Why trust anything they say?

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## Sina-1

VEVAK said:


> Why trust anything the Americans say?


I did not say I trust them!

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## Smarana Mitra

VEVAK said:


> With the 3rd of Khordad systems my worry has always been on the Missiles of the system and not the system it's self and it seems Iran's continuous upgrading of the missiles have so far payed off & that's a path Iran needs to continue down on! And no doubt being able to hit a moving low RCS target at +50,000 feet using a "highly mobile" domestically produced Air Defense system is impressive and it sends a clear message because these are systems whos radars (PESA radar on the launch platform) don't necessarily need to stay on for any more than a few minutes and can quickly pack up and move so targeting them will not be so easy. And Iran is only just getting started on SAM systems so just imagine what we will achieve in the next decade or two.
> 
> IRGC as always did a great job at defending our Air Space and making it known that there are redlines that Iran will not allow anyone to cross and that goes for everyone even the world most powerful superpower! And that Iranian built Air Defense Systems are more than capable of going up against U.S. low RCS aircraft just incase the Americans had any doubts that it could.
> 
> And if our guys put a little effort on design, and our government puts a little funding toward mass producing components like processor, solid state hard drives & memory storage,.... Iran could become a major weapon exporter in various high tech fields. From SAM systems, Helicopters, Frigates, UAV's, UGV, Communication, IT & Cyber security, PGM, ISW,...
> 
> 
> 
> Why trust anything the Americans say? Clearly it's in their interest to claim that this was a low end early versions of the Global Hawk that was flying lower than usual & that's why Iranians were able to hit it with their SAM's....
> These are people that sold a decade long areal bombing campaign against Iraq to their own people and the world as a Humanitarian No Fly Zone! Why trust anything they say?


Drones move at a speed of 150kmph which is too slow and can be easily targeted. Regardless of what RCS reduction is there, it still has enough RCS to be spotted. It is not like some 5th generation plane level stealth. 50000 feet is 15km altitude and every SAM has that much altitude strike at lower ranges. Considering that it was slow moving, there is nothing to brag about. If these drones were flying at 15000 feet, MANPADS would have hit them too.

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## Mithridates

Smarana Mitra said:


> Drones move at a speed of 150kmph which is too slow and can be easily targeted. Regardless of what RCS reduction is there, it still has enough RCS to be spotted. It is not like some 5th generation plane level stealth. 50000 feet is 15km altitude and every SAM has that much altitude strike at lower ranges. Considering that it was slow moving, there is nothing to brag about. If these drones were flying at 15000 feet, MANPADS would have hit them too.


it had jammers, towed decoys, RWR and LWR systems, it had 60000 fts of service ceiling and it was not that helpless you assume. and we are bragging about it because they were saying iranian made weapons are propaganda, photoshop and other type of nonsense.

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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> Drones move at a speed of 150kmph which is too slow and can be easily targeted. Regardless of what RCS reduction is there, it still has enough RCS to be spotted. It is not like some 5th generation plane level stealth. 50000 feet is 15km altitude and every SAM has that much altitude strike at lower ranges. Considering that it was slow moving, there is nothing to brag about. If these drones were flying at 15000 feet, MANPADS would have hit them too.


Except that you must change 150km with 600km
And you also must add that the drone was equipped with the most advanced warning and counter measure available to the drones around the world .

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## Caspian Parsi

Smarana Mitra said:


> Drones move at a speed of 150kmph which is too slow and can be easily targeted. Regardless of what RCS reduction is there, it still has enough RCS to be spotted. It is not like some 5th generation plane level stealth. 50000 feet is 15km altitude and every SAM has that much altitude strike at lower ranges. Considering that it was slow moving, there is nothing to brag about. If these drones were flying at 15000 feet, MANPADS would have hit them too.


dude WTF 150 Km !!! this one have speed of 600 km , Drones you buy from Amazon can do 150km !

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## MKALE1

Debating here about its speed and altittude is nonsense. Being 20000 ft and 120 kmph of this drone (i think this is wierd) does not proof that IRan defence systems can not shoot 50000 ft and high speed targets.
Raad SAM seems capabale enough for all USAF assets.

btwn Congrt. to IRanian brothers. it was good job.

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## SOHEIL

Smarana Mitra said:


> Drones move at a speed of 150kmph



LOL !

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## Russel

Am


Smarana Mitra said:


> Drones move at a speed of 150kmph which is too slow and can be easily targeted. Regardless of what RCS reduction is there, it still has enough RCS to be spotted. It is not like some 5th generation plane level stealth. 50000 feet is 15km altitude and every SAM has that much altitude strike at lower ranges. Considering that it was slow moving, there is nothing to brag about. If these drones were flying at 15000 feet, MANPADS would have hit them too.


American are morons if they did not design it as stealth as possible to use this for intelligence gathering during wartime. It’s designed to replace U2, so it’s supposed to be resilience to AD threat and supposed to be able to gather intelligence in threat environment, otherwise it’s waste of money!

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## VEVAK

Smarana Mitra said:


> Drones move at a speed of 150kmph which is too slow and can be easily targeted. Regardless of what RCS reduction is there, it still has enough RCS to be spotted. It is not like some 5th generation plane level stealth. 50000 feet is 15km altitude and every SAM has that much altitude strike at lower ranges. Considering that it was slow moving, there is nothing to brag about. If these drones were flying at 15000 feet, MANPADS would have hit them too.



Are you an Idiot or what? Are truly that stupid that you can't do so much as a google search on the Global Hawk before talking nonsense?

1st The RQ-4 cruise speed is over 575kph! & it's max speed is 630kph MORON!

2ndly It's not that Iran was able to hit an aircraft at +51,000 ft, Iran hit a low RCS drone in silent mode using a Low signature, fast acting, HIGHLY MOBIIL domestically produced SAM system so it's not like Iran used some fixed site systems designed for high altitude engagement that have massive radars and massive missiles to go with them located at fixed known positions like Iranian SA-2's or S-200's and it's not like Iran used it's imported highly advanced Russian S-300's to down it!

American military experts fully understand what the downing of a US Drone like the Global Hawk using a highly mobile Iranian radar based SAM system means!

MANPAD's operate on IR and heat signature so any MANPAD that can hit a Global Hawk will also be able to hit F-35's or B-2 Bombers as long as they get close enough! MORON!

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## PeeD

The age of operational use of Iranian land attack cruise missiles has begun with the Saudi release of the Houthi CM remains.

Engine is a turbojet but airframe is the Soumar/Kh-55 or rather a modification of it.

Saudis claims it was a Ya-Ali.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> The age of operational use of Iranian land attack cruise missiles has begun with the Saudi release of the Houthi CM remains.
> 
> Engine is a turbojet but airframe is the Soumar/Kh-55 or rather a modification of it.
> 
> Saudis claims it was a Ya-Ali.



Ya-Ali is red and fairly small

Obviously color can be changed but the Houthi video made it clear it was a Soumar variant though the target was less than 200KM away which makes the choice interesting.

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## VEVAK

Russel said:


> Am
> 
> American are morons if they did not design it as stealth as possible to use this for intelligence gathering during wartime. It’s designed to replace U2, so it’s supposed to be resilience to AD threat and supposed to be able to gather intelligence in threat environment, otherwise it’s waste of money!




Against more capable militaries stealth by the most part is simply a capability against BVR and long range engagement these day's and it sure as hell doesn't mean you somehow magically become untouchable!

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## arashkamangir

TheImmortal said:


> Ya-Ali is red and fairly small
> 
> Obviously color can be changed but the Houthi video made it clear it was a Soumar variant though the target was less than 200KM away which makes the choice interesting.



I actually think Ya Ali is a great candidate as a anti radiation platform and/or small targets. We do know that Soumar is being used by Yemenis simply by available footage, however the houthis maybe using Ya Ali as well for cost reduction.

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## TheImmortal

arashkamangir said:


> I actually think Ya Ali is a great candidate as a anti radiation platform and/or small targets. We do know that Soumar is being used by Yemenis simply by available footage, however the houthis maybe using Ya Ali as well for cost reduction.



To my knowledge Ya-Ali has never been shown as operational or in service with IRGC.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

Experts: Iran Air Defense Missiles Must Be Taken Seriously
https://www.breitbart.com/middle-ea...air-defense-missiles-must-be-taken-seriously/



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143492033811812352

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1142206529157967872

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## WinterNights

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> Experts: Iran Air Defense Missiles Must Be Taken Seriously
> https://www.breitbart.com/middle-ea...air-defense-missiles-must-be-taken-seriously/
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143492033811812352
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1142206529157967872



I actually prefer it if they underestimate our capabilities. But sadly, their military has gotten a good taste of our (in this case, air-defence) capability, so their military is not as clueless as the people writing comment on above article. I read a few of them, and I felt my IQ draining.

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## arashkamangir

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> Experts: Iran Air Defense Missiles Must Be Taken Seriously
> https://www.breitbart.com/middle-ea...air-defense-missiles-must-be-taken-seriously/
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143492033811812352
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1142206529157967872



wrong thread, this topic belongs to air defence...


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## Hassan Al-Somal

arashkamangir said:


> wrong thread, this topic belongs to air defence...



I thought what I posted was about air defense. lol

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## arashkamangir

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> I thought what I posted was about air defense. lol



Then why is it in the missiles thread? Unless I'm tripping it says Missiles thread here.


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## yavar

former head of Israel's Missile Defense Organization Uzi Rubin: Iran 2018 missile test capable of 4000 KM range







United Nations Security Council, 8418th meeting, resolution 2231, Iran, Ballistic missile,
*Dec 18, 2018
*
satellite images was shown by U.S. in close door session




*۱۳۹۷/۹/۲۰*
تایید تست اخیر موشک بالستیک/ پاسخ سردار حاجی‌زاده به واکنش آمریکایی‌ها
ردار امیرعلی حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی با تایید خبر تست موشک بالستیک اخیر اظهار داشت: ما تست‌های موشکی‌مان را انجام می‌دهیم و این کار اخیر هم تست مهمی بود.
سردار امیرعلی حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه با بیان اینکه بیش از 40 تا 50 تست در سال انجام می‌دهیم، تاکید کرد: اینکه آمریکایی‌ها نسبت به برخی از این آزمایش‌ها واکنش نشان می‌دهند نشان‌دهنده فشار به آنهاست.
سردار حاجی‌زاده البته به اسم این موشک اشاره‌ای نکرد.
https://www.farsnews.com/news/13970...تیک-پاسخ-سردار-حاجی‌زاده-به-واکنش-آمریکایی‌ها

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## arashkamangir

yavar said:


> former head of Israel's Missile Defense Organization Uzi Rubin: Iran 2018 missile test capable of 4000 KM range
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't this the Khorramshar?
> 
> 
> United Nations Security Council, 8418th meeting, resolution 2231, Iran, Ballistic missile,
> *Dec 18, 2018
> *
> satellite images was shown by U.S. in close door session
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *۱۳۹۷/۹/۲۰*
> تایید تست اخیر موشک بالستیک/ پاسخ سردار حاجی‌زاده به واکنش آمریکایی‌ها
> ردار امیرعلی حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی با تایید خبر تست موشک بالستیک اخیر اظهار داشت: ما تست‌های موشکی‌مان را انجام می‌دهیم و این کار اخیر هم تست مهمی بود.
> سردار امیرعلی حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه با بیان اینکه بیش از 40 تا 50 تست در سال انجام می‌دهیم، تاکید کرد: اینکه آمریکایی‌ها نسبت به برخی از این آزمایش‌ها واکنش نشان می‌دهند نشان‌دهنده فشار به آنهاست.
> سردار حاجی‌زاده البته به اسم این موشک اشاره‌ای نکرد.
> https://www.farsnews.com/news/13970919000816/تایید-تست-اخیر-موشک-بالستیک-پاسخ-سردار-حاجی‌زاده-به-واکنش-آمریکایی‌ها


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## Smarana Mitra

Hack-Hook said:


> Except that you must change 150km with 600km
> And you also must add that the drone was equipped with the most advanced warning and counter measure available to the drones around the world .





Caspian Parsi said:


> dude WTF 150 Km !!! this one have speed of 600 km , Drones you buy from Amazon can do 150km !



I am sorry. It was 550kmph. But this is not high either. Commercial planes fly at 1000kmph. 550kmph amounts to 150m/s. Most important is that it is not maneuverable and hence can't evade any missile fired at it.



Russel said:


> Am
> 
> American are morons if they did not design it as stealth as possible to use this for intelligence gathering during wartime. It’s designed to replace U2, so it’s supposed to be resilience to AD threat and supposed to be able to gather intelligence in threat environment, otherwise it’s waste of money!


It is not stealthy. It just has long endurance. U2 was also not stealthy. U2 was 1960s drone. There was no stealth in 1960.



VEVAK said:


> Are you an Idiot or what? Are truly that stupid that you can't do so much as a google search on the Global Hawk before talking nonsense?
> 
> 1st The RQ-4 cruise speed is over 575kph! & it's max speed is 630kph MORON!
> 
> 2ndly It's not that Iran was able to hit an aircraft at +51,000 ft, Iran hit a low RCS drone in silent mode using a Low signature, fast acting, HIGHLY MOBIIL domestically produced SAM system so it's not like Iran used some fixed site systems designed for high altitude engagement that have massive radars and massive missiles to go with them located at fixed known positions like Iranian SA-2's or S-200's and it's not like Iran used it's imported highly advanced Russian S-300's to down it!
> 
> American military experts fully understand what the downing of a US Drone like the Global Hawk using a highly mobile Iranian radar based SAM system means!
> 
> MANPAD's operate on IR and heat signature so any MANPAD that can hit a Global Hawk will also be able to hit F-35's or B-2 Bombers as long as they get close enough! MORON!


Iran hit the drone using ground based SAM. I don't understans the meaning of high mobile SAM. Is it on racing car? Otherwise, a SAM system with multiple trucks having power generation to the tune of hundred kW should not find it hard to detect a big drone like RQ4. It is 6ton heavy and does not have stealth. It is also not very maneuverable and any missile that can overtake it can be easily directed to hit it.


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## WinterNights

Smarana Mitra said:


> I am sorry. It was 550kmph. But this is not high either. Commercial planes fly at 1000kmph. 550kmph amounts to 150m/s. Most important is that it is not maneuverable and hence can't evade any missile fired at it.



You need to stop talking about matters you don't have a clue about because you only make yourself looks like a moron.

The UAV was flying at above 50,000 feet when Iran downed it, that by itself was a feat. Seconly, only bunch of clueless kids like you are acting as if this UAV was some helpless dove. This UAV had the sophisticated electronic warfare suit made by Raytheon. Just because it was not effective in front of Iranian SAM's, it does not mean it was defenceless. 



> It is not stealthy. It just has long endurance. U2 was also not stealthy. U2 was 1960s drone. There was no stealth in 1960.



The UAV has layers of honey-comb composite material designed to absorb radars waves for varying frequencies. Just because it is not as stealth as the F-22, it does not mean it did not have RCS lowering techniques employed on it.



> Iran hit the drone using ground based SAM. I don't understans the meaning of high mobile SAM. Is it on racing car? Otherwise, a SAM system with multiple trucks having power generation to the tune of hundred kW should not find it hard to detect a big drone like RQ4.



You're obviously mentally handicapped. A mobile SAM in this context is one that is not static and can be moved easily and put into operation very quickly in another area.





> It is 6ton heavy and does not have stealth. It is also not very manoeuvrable and any missile that can overtake it can be easily directed to hit it.



You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over and think people will buy it.

1- The UAV was flying at well over 50,000 feet. 

2- The UAV did have varying RCS lowering techniques employed.

3- The UAV has many varying countermeasures against being attack, but Iran rendered them ineffective.

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## Smarana Mitra

WinterNights said:


> You need to stop talking about matters you don't have a clue about because you only make yourself looks like a moron.
> 
> The UAV was flying at above 50,000 feet when Iran downed it, that by itself was a feat. Seconly, only bunch of clueless kids like you are acting as if this UAV was some helpless dove. This UAV had the sophisticated electronic warfare suit made by Raytheon. Just because it was not effective in front of Iranian SAM's, it does not mean it was defenceless.


So, merely flying at 15km makes it difficult for a missile to hit? How?

What were the defences of the drone? It was made in 1995 and even F22 type stealth was unavailable at that time. You can't simply say that RQ4 is stealth drone. It has no design of a stealth drone



WinterNights said:


> The UAV has layers of honey-comb composite material designed to absorb radars waves for varying frequencies. Just because it is not as stealth as the F-22, it does not mean it did not have RCS lowering techniques employed on it


Composites don't absorb radar waves. Also, radars have improved enough to detect these drones. We have radars on commercial ships that can detect fishing boast at 5km. Similarly, seeing a 1995 era drone at 50000 feet is not a big feat. The drone is 6.5 ton heavy and is bigger than MiG21 plane



WinterNights said:


> You're obviously mentally handicapped. A mobile SAM in this context is one that is not static and can be moved easily and put into operation very quickly in another area.


Almost every SAM is mobile nowadays. What is the specialty here?


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## WinterNights

Smarana Mitra said:


> So, merely flying at 15km makes it difficult for a missile to hit? How?



"merely"  Let me know when you Indians show to have such a capability in practise.






> What were the defences of the drone? It was made in 1995 and even F22 type stealth was unavailable at that time. You can't simply say that RQ4 is stealth drone.





This drone was called the triton, a more advanced version of the MQ-4 and had its first flight in *2013*. It is equipped with state of the art raytheon electronic warfare systems.

You don't even have the brain capacity to do a simple google search?



> It has no design of a stealth drone



A BS claim that I debunked already with reference to their active attempts to reduce its RCS by the utilisation of radar absorbing technique.




> Composites don't absorb radar waves.



Yes they do, you clueless kid. The drone has layers of honey comb material designed to absorb radars with varying frequency types.




> Also, radars have improved enough to detect these drones.




Who said anything about radars not being able to detect them? Stealth in a military RCS context does not mean invisible to radar.





> We have radars on commercial ships that can detect fishing boast at 5km. Similarly, seeing a 1995 era drone at 50000 feet is not a big feat. The drone is 6.5 ton heavy and is bigger than MiG21 plane




And B-2 is much larger than this UAV but much more stealthy. Size is not the only factor. And your "1995" BS has been debunked already.



> Almost every SAM is mobile nowadays. What is the specialty here?



You asked what mobile meant, and I answered. Seriously dude, why are you this thick?

There are mobile and then mobile. For example, this third of khordad systems is much more mobile and with lower footprint than something like S-300 etc.

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## Smarana Mitra

WinterNights said:


> "merely"  Let me know when you Indians show to have such a capability in practise.


India already has this. Akash SAM has 18km altitude. India even has demonstrated BMD capability at much greater heights. 



WinterNights said:


> This drone was called the triton, a more advanced version of the MQ-4 and had its first flight in *2013*. It is equipped with state of the art raytheon electronic warfare systems.
> 
> You don't even have the brain capacity to do a simple google search?


Triton is naval version of RQ4. It is not a steath drone. Also, EWS can not be equipped on RQ4 as they don't have the other sophisticated sensors to detect incoming threats. Using EWS arbitrarily can cause others to be alerted. Don't talk nonsense about it having EWS or other things.



WinterNights said:


> A BS claim that I debunked already with reference to their active attempts to reduce its RCS by the utilisation of radar absorbing technique.


Merely having composites does not make a plane stealth. It just has lower RCS compared to metals but it still is not low observable. Please understand the difference.



WinterNights said:


> Yes they do, you clueless kid. The drone has layers of honey comb material designed to absorb radars with varying frequency types.


I know what composites can do. But honey comb is for strength of structure rather than stealth. Stealth requires radar deflecting design. This will cost fuel and it will be fuel inefficient. Triton has 30hour endurance which is impossible with stealth design.



WinterNights said:


> And B-2 is much larger than this UAV but much more stealthy. Size is not the only factor. And your "1995" BS has been debunked already.


How much fuel efficiency does B2 have? This drone can stay afloat for 30 hours, flying at 300kmph. Can B2 do that? Understand the difference between stealth of B2 and stealth of long endurance surveillance platform.


WinterNights said:


> You asked what mobile meant, and I answered. Seriously dude, why are you this thick?
> 
> There are mobile and then mobile. For example, this third of khordad systems is much more mobile and with lower footprint than something like S-300 etc.



This is pantsir :






This is khordad:





Do you think Khordad is any more mobile than Pantsir? Pantsir is not a very modern SAM either. So, why this unwarranted boasting?

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## WinterNights

Smarana Mitra said:


> India already has this. Akash SAM has 18km altitude. India even has demonstrated BMD capability at much greater heights.



You have not demonstrated jack. This is my point. Many nations can claim x or y, but until you have shown these capabilities in practise, it means little.

And isn't your Akash a homebuilt Russian kub?



> Triton is naval version of RQ4. It is not a steath drone.



It is stealthy, as I explained already. Your words mean nothing when hard evidence on the ground debunks your claim.




> as they don't have the other sophisticated sensors to detect incoming threats.



Like I said, you don't even have the capacity to do a simple google search.

RQ-4A BAMS-D is an ISR platform, with _Receivers_ level EW capabilities (not exactly significant per American standards). Global Hawk class HALE is suited for providing surveillance from significant altitudes, and not try to penetrate defenses of any country.

AN/ALR = Receivers (Warning)
AN/ALQ = Jamming/Spoofing (Penetration); necessary to suppress SAM assets among other stuff
AN/ALT = Transmitters (Communications Suppression)



> Merely having composites does not make a plane stealth. It just has lower RCS compared to metals but it still is not low observable. Please understand the difference.



The point is this UAV used various methods to reduce it's RCS. There is no cut off point from which something becomes "stealth" in an RCS context , it is all relative.





> How much fuel efficiency does B2 have? This drone can stay afloat for 30 hours, flying at 300kmph. Can B2 do that? Understand the difference between stealth of B2 and stealth of long endurance surveillance platform.



What does endurance have to with RCS?




> This is pantsir :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is khordad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think Khordad is any more mobile than Pantsir? Pantsir is not a very modern SAM either. So, why this unwarranted boasting?



Are you seriously comparing a mid-long range sam system to a short range system?  Your arguments are getting dumber by the second.

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## VEVAK

Smarana Mitra said:


> I am sorry. It was 550kmph. But this is not high either. Commercial planes fly at 1000kmph. 550kmph amounts to 150m/s. Most important is that it is not maneuverable and hence can't evade any missile fired at it.
> 
> 
> It is not stealthy. It just has long endurance. U2 was also not stealthy. U2 was 1960s drone. There was no stealth in 1960.
> 
> 
> Iran hit the drone using ground based SAM. I don't understans the meaning of high mobile SAM. Is it on racing car? Otherwise, a SAM system with multiple trucks having power generation to the tune of hundred kW should not find it hard to detect a big drone like RQ4. It is 6ton heavy and does not have stealth. It is also not very maneuverable and any missile that can overtake it can be easily directed to hit it.



You don't understand what low signature highly mobile SAM system means because you don't much understand anything about military equipment!

1st the weapon systems Iran used to hit the drone is not a fixed site location with fixed coordinates with radars and targeting equipment as large as a small building like the SA-2 or S-200 where the coordinates of where they operate and where various aspects and limitations of the system is quite clear.

2nd The weapon systems is highly mobile because Radar targeting capability(with search capability if needed), C&C capability & Missile launchers are all built into one vehicle that would allow them to operate independently if need be and go operational rather quickly. So being highly mobile has nothing to do with the max kph of the vehicle! MORON!

So the radar on the launch vehicle is advanced enough where "any" early warning system can relay the relative direction of incoming aircrafts & in turn the launch vehicle that has it's own advanced radar in a matter of minutes can turn on it's radar to search, detect, target & launch against that target from a single vehicle rather quickly and then quickly go back into hiding so simply taking out their standard search radar and or main C&C will not disable them & you would have to go after each vehicle & the fact that Iran hit a low RCS aircraft at 51,000 feet means unlike various other highly mobile systems (where so much capability is built into one vehicle) there would be no flying over them! And with system such as this by the time an enemy fighter detects the radars of this system going on the missile has already been launch and is coming at you at supersonic speeds so the pilot would have no time to do anything but take countermeasures and even if you evade by the time you come to and attempt to search and target the launch location the systems has packed up and moved. 

The RQ-4 that Iran downed had a low RCS honeycomb skin made up of RAM composites, it had composites meant to reduce noise & engine heat! So yes it was low signature & low RCS (compared to it's size) but NOT a Stealth! Remaining stealth at those altitudes would be rather hard due to various factors and the 1st of which would be that you would be the only object at those altitudes & Stealth does NOT mean you have NO RCS every American Stealth fighter & bomber has an RCS and with the proliferation of advanced processing power and software it's only at longer ranges that they become harder to target!

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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> I am sorry. It was 550kmph. But this is not high either. Commercial planes fly at 1000kmph. 550kmph amounts to 150m/s. Most important is that it is not maneuverable and hence can't evade any missile fired at it.


it has the best countermeasure and Jammers available around the world , and the body is built of material to reduce its radar signatures



Smarana Mitra said:


> I am sorry. It was 550kmph. But this is not high either. Commercial planes fly at 1000kmph. 550kmph amounts to 150m/s. Most important is that it is not maneuverable and hence can't evade any missile fired at it.
> 
> 
> It is not stealthy. It just has long endurance. U2 was also not stealthy. U2 was 1960s drone. There was no stealth in 1960.
> 
> 
> Iran hit the drone using ground based SAM. I don't understans the meaning of high mobile SAM. Is it on racing car? Otherwise, a SAM system with multiple trucks having power generation to the tune of hundred kW should not find it hard to detect a big drone like RQ4. It is 6ton heavy and does not have stealth. It is also not very maneuverable and any missile that can overtake it can be easily directed to hit it.


by the way why you attach specification of MQ-9 we are talking about RQ-4 .



Smarana Mitra said:


> What were the defences of the drone? It was made in 1995 and even F22 type stealth was unavailable at that time. You can't simply say that RQ4 is stealth drone. It has no design of a stealth drone


you still talking about MQ-9 not RQ-4 . you knew you totally are on another level.



Smarana Mitra said:


> India already has this. Akash SAM has 18km altitude. India even has demonstrated BMD capability at much greater heights.


Last month we saw the capabilities of the system . sadly it lack a simple FOF. by the way are you camparing that outdated system with the max range of 30km with 3rd of Khordad with engagement range of 100km+ and you are talking about 18km altitude we are talking about 30km of altitude . even F-15 cant escape 3rd of Khordad by flying high


Smarana Mitra said:


> Triton is naval version of RQ4. It is not a steath drone. Also, EWS can not be equipped on RQ4 as they don't have the other sophisticated sensors to detect incoming threats. Using EWS arbitrarily can cause others to be alerted. Don't talk nonsense about it having EWS or other things.


yeah each drone cost with research and development come near as 227 million $ for nothing for the comparison the number for F-35 is 120-130 million$


Smarana Mitra said:


> Merely having composites does not make a plane stealth. It just has lower RCS compared to metals but it still is not low observable. Please understand the difference.


its an improvement you admit the drone had low RCS.


Smarana Mitra said:


> I know what composites can do. But honey comb is for strength of structure rather than stealth. Stealth requires radar deflecting design. This will cost fuel and it will be fuel inefficient. Triton has 30hour endurance which is impossible with stealth design.


Radar deflection or Radar absorption or both and there is several different approach to lowering RCS


Smarana Mitra said:


> How much fuel efficiency does B2 have? This drone can stay afloat for 30 hours, flying at 300kmph. Can B2 do that? Understand the difference between stealth of B2 and stealth of long endurance surveillance platform.


well B-2 is a 170 ton airplane that can fly 11100km at 900km/h RQ-4 is 7 ton airplane that can do 12000km at 575km/h

well I must say B-2 is pretty much fuel efficient if you consider the difference in weight and also the fact that it uses 4 engine compared to one in fact one of the interesting aspect of flying wings is that they are fuel efficients



Smarana Mitra said:


> This is pantsir :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is khordad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think Khordad is any more mobile than Pantsir? Pantsir is not a very modern SAM either. So, why this unwarranted boasting?


you really need this





now I really feel what pain Pakistani people are having when they are dealing with some of you guys
this is S-300




pantsir is called SA-22 not S-300

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## skyshadow

The Saudi military has claimed that Iranian Ya Ali cruise missile was powered by a TJ100 turbojet made by the PBS group. The Czech company assured me it has never exported to Iran and will cooperate with investigation if it is a TJ100.

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> The Saudi military has claimed that Iranian Ya Ali cruise missile was powered by a TJ100 turbojet made by the PBS group. The Czech company assured me it has never exported to Iran and will cooperate with investigation if it is a TJ100.



Czech sells to middle man or the black market. Middle man/Black market sells to Iran.

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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> The Saudi military has claimed that Iranian Ya Ali cruise missile was powered by a TJ100 turbojet made by the PBS group. The Czech company assured me it has never exported to Iran and will cooperate with investigation if it is a TJ100.



That explains exactly two things: Soumar and its 700km range were correct back when it was unveiled. Original mini-Turbofan was not ready and Toloue would not fit. So a engine was selected which had less than half of the thrust but could be serial produced.
Setback was that the CM could only be fueled to a certain amount in order to not get too slow. That amount is the amount that allows a TJ100 powered Kh-55 to travel to 700km.

Then Hoveyzeh came that allowed a larger but sufficiently powerful engine, the Tolue to be used. Now fully fuel load or full-sized tanks could be used. Setback was that fuel consumption was higher than the original mini-Turbofan. Hence the potential range of 2500km was reduced to about half, 1350km.

However capability-wise it added another cost-efficient missile asset capable to strike Israel together with the 1000km Dezful, hence important requirement fulfilled.
Tolue is cost-effectively serial produced in Iran and the TJ-100 copy should be even cheaper.
A redesigned mini-KH-55 would have been possible but not worth the effort as it was maturing the airframe production for future longer range variants such as the Hoveyzeh and probably later that air launched CM of the IRGC-ASF.

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## skyshadow



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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> The Saudi military has claimed that Iranian Ya Ali cruise missile was powered by a TJ100 turbojet made by the PBS group. The Czech company assured me it has never exported to Iran and will cooperate with investigation if it is a TJ100.



Soumar





Houthi CM






Ya Ali

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> Soumar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Houthi CM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ya Ali




the first one is not Somar CM its hoveizeh CM

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## skyshadow



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## Ich

skyshadow said:


>



Looks like a nice one. Will there be thermobaric versions of it?

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## skyshadow

Ich said:


> Looks like a nice one. Will there be thermobaric versions of it?



no not that i know of but this is old there is Fajr_5 rocket now maybe for that they will.

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## Smarana Mitra

Hack-Hook said:


> you still talking about MQ-9 not RQ-4 . you knew you totally are on another level.


I am talking of RQ4, not MQ9. RQ4 is 10 years older than MQ9.



Hack-Hook said:


> Last month we saw the capabilities of the system . sadly it lack a simple FOF. by the way are you camparing that outdated system with the max range of 30km with 3rd of Khordad with engagement range of 100km+ and you are talking about 18km altitude we are talking about 30km of altitude . even F-15 cant escape 3rd of Khordad by flying high


The 30km altitude is a joke. Only BMD needs that altitude. Planes don't travel at that height as heights above 15-17km is where troposphere layer of the atmosphere ends and hence planes will not find enough oxygen there. Only few planes like Mig25 could go higher but at a significant cost of having high fuel burnout and low payload.

Max range of 100km is a big deal. How true it is is a question one has to check. Even missiles like AMRAAM claims 100km range but the actual NEZ is only 30km. Similarly, Akash's range is 30km in terms of NEZ and no plane can escape it within kill zone. I don't think Khordad of 100km NEZ is practical. Such long range will make it too heavy



Hack-Hook said:


> its an improvement you admit the drone had low RCS.


The composites are for reducing weight. Any reduction in RCS is only coincidental and not the main effect. The RCS is reduced not merely by composite but by design.



Hack-Hook said:


> well B-2 is a 170 ton airplane that can fly 11100km at 900km/h RQ-4 is 7 ton airplane that can do 12000km at 575km/h
> 
> well I must say B-2 is pretty much fuel efficient if you consider the difference in weight and also the fact that it uses 4 engine compared to one in fact one of the interesting aspect of flying wings is that they are fuel efficients


A plane with 170 ton weight and has 76 ton of fuel. That is 45% of its total weight in fuel. Yet, it travels for 11000km. This RQ4 has 7 ton weight and travels for 30 hours at 575kmh speed and has range 22000 km range. Do you see why? The stealth always has a trade off in terms of range. Stealth design is not aerodynamic and hence consumes more fuel.

RQ4 is a high endurance HALE, not stealth drone. So, it is not hard to spot



Hack-Hook said:


> pantsir is called SA-22 not S-300


I never said Pantsir is S300 equivalent. I am saying that Khordad is Pantsir equivalent and is only being hyped up by likes of you.

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## AmirPatriot

Smarana Mitra said:


> I am talking of RQ4, not MQ9. RQ4 is 10 years older than MQ9.
> 
> 
> The 30km altitude is a joke. Only BMD needs that altitude. Planes don't travel at that height as heights above 15-17km is where troposphere layer of the atmosphere ends and hence planes will not find enough oxygen there. Only few planes like Mig25 could go higher but at a significant cost of having high fuel burnout and low payload.
> 
> Max range of 100km is a big deal. How true it is is a question one has to check. Even missiles like AMRAAM claims 100km range but the actual NEZ is only 30km. Similarly, Akash's range is 30km in terms of NEZ and no plane can escape it within kill zone. I don't think Khordad of 100km NEZ is practical. Such long range will make it too heavy
> 
> 
> The composites are for reducing weight. Any reduction in RCS is only coincidental and not the main effect. The RCS is reduced not merely by composite but by design.
> 
> 
> A plane with 170 ton weight and has 76 ton of fuel. That is 45% of its total weight in fuel. Yet, it travels for 11000km. This RQ4 has 7 ton weight and travels for 30 hours at 575kmh speed and has range 22000 km range. Do you see why? The stealth always has a trade off in terms of range. Stealth design is not aerodynamic and hence consumes more fuel.
> 
> RQ4 is a high endurance HALE, not stealth drone. So, it is not hard to spot
> 
> 
> I never said Pantsir is S300 equivalent. I am saying that Khordad is Pantsir equivalent and is only being hyped up by likes of you.



Comedicly wrong post in almost every aspect

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## WinterNights

Smarana Mitra said:


> I am talking of RQ4, not MQ9. RQ4 is 10 years older than MQ9.



The mq-4c triton has its first flight in 2013 and only delivered last year, it's the most advanced of this drone family. You have already been told this fact but it seems you're pretending to be sleep



> The 30km altitude is a joke. Only BMD needs that altitude. Planes don't travel at that height as heights above 15-17km is where troposphere layer of the atmosphere ends and hence planes will not find enough oxygen there. Only few planes like Mig25 could go higher but at a significant cost of having high fuel burnout and low payload.



You just contradicted yourself in your own statement  You said planes don't need to travel that high but yet still gave an example of a plane that does? Don't clown yourself.



> Max range of 100km is a big deal. How true it is is a question one has to check. Even missiles like AMRAAM claims 100km range but the actual NEZ is only 30km. Similarly, Akash's range is 30km in terms of NEZ and no plane can escape it within kill zone. I don't think Khordad of 100km NEZ is practical. Such long range will make it too heavy



Ghiberish posts with no evidence backing it up whatsoever.





> The composites are for reducing weight. Any reduction in RCS is only coincidental and not the main effect. The RCS is reduced not merely by composite but by design.



Nonsense.


The wreck of mq-4












Almost same structure is used for F35 body






More pics















> RQ4 is a high endurance HALE, not stealth drone. So, it is not hard to spot



This nonsense has been debunked like 50 times already in this very thread.



> I never said Pantsir is S300 equivalent. I am saying that Khordad is Pantsir equivalent and is only being hyped up by likes of you.



LOL what?

Third of Khordad is a mid-long range air defence. On what planet is a mainly short range pantsir equivalent to it?
Are you drunk or something?

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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> I am talking of RQ4, not MQ9. RQ4 is 10 years older than MQ9.


Wrong


Smarana Mitra said:


> The 30km altitude is a joke. Only BMD needs that altitude. Planes don't travel at that height as heights above 15-17km is where troposphere layer of the atmosphere ends and hence planes will not find enough oxygen there. Only few planes like Mig25 could go higher but at a significant cost of having high fuel burnout and low payload.
> 
> Max range of 100km is a big deal. How true it is is a question one has to check. Even missiles like AMRAAM claims 100km range but the actual NEZ is only 30km. Similarly, Akash's range is 30km in terms of NEZ and no plane can escape it within kill zone. I don't think Khordad of 100km NEZ is practical. Such long range will make it too heavy


Wrong F-15 can do that easily and USA whored f-15 to anybody interested around us . and when missile is powerful enough to go up to 30km its not strange if it can fly 100km away. Well it's not nuclear science to knew if you fire it at those ranges it has led chance hitting target than when you fire it at for example 50-60 km . by the way according to USA we fired the missile at more than 70km .


Smarana Mitra said:


> The composites are for reducing weight. Any reduction in RCS is only coincidental and not the main effect. The RCS is reduced not merely by composite but by design.


Coincidence or not the end result is reduction in RCS and for the record some composites absorb radar wave and as the result reduce RCS more.


Smarana Mitra said:


> A plane with 170 ton weight and has 76 ton of fuel. That is 45% of its total weight in fuel. Yet, it travels for 11000km. This RQ4 has 7 ton weight and travels for 30 hours at 575kmh speed and has range 22000 km range. Do you see why? The stealth always has a trade off in terms of range. Stealth design is not aerodynamic and hence consumes more fuel.
> 
> RQ4 is a high endurance HALE, not stealth drone. So, it is not hard to spot


Again Wrong . you see the payload of both plane and then make comparison . you need 30 or more rq-4 to carry the amount of cargo a single B-2 can carry now calculate the amount of fuel needed. And its not important if it fly 30 hour . in term of physic efficiency is calculated by the amount of job it do and flying wing design is well known for being efficient. And RQ-4. Is 7ton but it must carry 8 ton of fuel to reach 12000nm and only carry 1300kg
A b-2 is 71t it can carry 75t of fuel and 40ton of payloads to reach 6900 nm of flight radius 

In short RQ-4 must spend 2-3 more fuel to do the same amount of work as B2


Smarana Mitra said:


> I am talking of RQ4, not MQ9. RQ4 is 10 years older than MQ9.
> 
> 
> The 30km altitude is a joke. Only BMD needs that altitude. Planes don't travel at that height as heights above 15-17km is where troposphere layer of the atmosphere ends and hence planes will not find enough oxygen there. Only few planes like Mig25 could go higher but at a significant cost of having high fuel burnout and low payload.
> 
> Max range of 100km is a big deal. How true it is is a question one has to check. Even missiles like AMRAAM claims 100km range but the actual NEZ is only 30km. Similarly, Akash's range is 30km in terms of NEZ and no plane can escape it within kill zone. I don't think Khordad of 100km NEZ is practical. Such long range will make it too heavy
> 
> 
> The composites are for reducing weight. Any reduction in RCS is only coincidental and not the main effect. The RCS is reduced not merely by composite but by design.
> 
> 
> A plane with 170 ton weight and has 76 ton of fuel. That is 45% of its total weight in fuel. Yet, it travels for 11000km. This RQ4 has 7 ton weight and travels for 30 hours at 575kmh speed and has range 22000 km range. Do you see why? The stealth always has a trade off in terms of range. Stealth design is not aerodynamic and hence consumes more fuel.
> 
> RQ4 is a high endurance HALE, not stealth drone. So, it is not hard to spot
> 
> 
> I never said Pantsir is S300 equivalent. I am saying that Khordad is Pantsir equivalent and is only being hyped up by likes of you.


A pants or equivalent with 100km range missile and even you don't believe us go and look at pentagon who says we hit the drone at 70km range.
By the way I change my name to anything you like if you show us a case of Pantsir engaging target 70km away and its missile can go up to 30km.

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## Mithridates

Smarana Mitra said:


> I never said Pantsir is S300 equivalent. I am saying that Khordad is Pantsir equivalent and is only being hyped up by likes of you.


if i'm not wrong it takes 20-30 min for s-300 to pack the bag and hit the road, khordad 3 can launch a missile and the driver start the engine and move away. the mobility our commanders mean is this.

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## skyshadow

*The 2nd generation of the Fateh-110 missile hits the headquarters of the Kurdistan Democratic party*


*



*

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## skyshadow



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## Sina-1

skyshadow said:


>


Recent?

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## skyshadow

Sina-1 said:


> Recent?


10 years old at least

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## skyshadow

*Iran owns a “unique secret weapon” which it would use against US forces if they make any “wrong moves”.*



https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190704-senior-iran-commander-threatens-us-with-secret-weapon/

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## Ich

skyshadow said:


> *Iran owns a “unique secret weapon” which it would use against US forces if they make any “wrong moves”.*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190704-senior-iran-commander-threatens-us-with-secret-weapon/



Me dont buy it.


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## Raghfarm007

The guy actually said iran has 2 secret weapons....

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## skyshadow

Ich said:


> Me dont buy it.



its well in Iran's capability to build Anti ship ballistic missiles with longer ranges or air defense systems or supersonic anti ship cruise missiles or new generation of torpedoes that they are not unwilling any time soon so that's maybe there *“unique secret weapon” *that's 4 probabilities of secret weapon.

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## WinterNights

Ich said:


> Me dont buy it.



Every nation on this planet that has a capable indigenous defence industry and is facing serious threats has secret weapons. No nations in its right mind would reveal all its assets. Everytime you reveal an asset, yes you form an extra deterrence, but you're also pushing the enemy to form a counter to it. Therefore once a nation like Iran obtains a decent deterrence, they should keep many strategic weapons hidden.

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## GWXP

Raghfarm007 said:


> The guy actually said iran has 2 secret weapons....


nuclear bomb + second nuclear bomb

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## Ich

skyshadow said:


> its well in Iran's capability to build Anti ship ballistic missiles with longer ranges or air defense systems or supersonic anti ship cruise missiles or new generation of torpedoes that they are not unwilling any time soon so that's maybe there *“unique secret weapon” *that's 4 probabilities of secret weapon.





WinterNights said:


> Every nation on this planet that has a capable indigenous defence industry and is facing serious threats has secret weapons. No nations in its right mind would reveal all its assets. Everytime you reveal an asset, yes you form an extra deterrence, but you're also pushing the enemy to form a counter to it. Therefore once a nation like Iran obtains a decent deterrence, they should keep many strategic weapons hidden.



Yes. But these are normal developments which all are aware of it. Thats nothing that could be descriped as "*unique secret weapon*". For me a "*unique secret weapon*" is a weapon which brings in absolute new technics which are not known before.

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## skyshadow

Ich said:


> Yes. But these are normal developments which all are aware of it. Thats nothing that could be descriped as "*unique secret weapon*". For me a "*unique secret weapon*" is a weapon which brings in absolute new technics which are not known before.


our military budget is too small to do something like that any time soon.

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## Ich

skyshadow said:


> our military budget is too small to do something like that any time soon.



Maybe. Sometimes new things came out of nowhere, just happen, have nothing to do with money. Maybe Iran developed directed radiowaves which form a nearly molecule free tunnel through the air in which a pulsed laser with 10 Megawatt/puls energy can light through without loss of energy. That would be a unique secret weapen to me.

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## Raghfarm007

GWXP said:


> nuclear bomb + second nuclear bomb



Nuclear technology is 80 years old..... you think more powerful weapons havent secretly been developed since?

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## Draco.IMF

*New cruise missile, UAV and ballistic missile on display in Yemen*



































































*and now imagine Hezbollah....*

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## Mithridates

they were calling this the ya ali cruise missile.

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## WinterNights

This is the power of Iran. To even give such a small group in an underdeveloped nation the ability to be able to make such things!

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## TheImmortal

Mithridates said:


> they were calling this the ya ali cruise missile.
> View attachment 568312



Except ya ali has engine on bottom this has engine on top? Very strange

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## DoubleYouSee

TheImmortal said:


> Except ya ali has engine on bottom this has engine on top? Very strange


maybe for greater range

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## yavar

Yemen Ansarullah movement unveil Quds_1 land attack cruise missile and Simmad_3 long range UAV drone

http://www.english.iswnews.com/6321...d-uavs-by-yemen-armed-forces-and-ansar-allah/

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## PeeD

Bachaha kheyli aktivan.

Tools are specifically developed for friends with more limited resources and means. This arsenal should be identical to what Hezbollah has, except for the liquid BMs with ranges beyond what it needs for Israel.

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## yavar



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## TheImmortal

WinterNights said:


> This is the power of Iran. To even give such a small group in an underdeveloped nation the ability to be able to make such things!



I doubt Yemen is making the cruise missile from scratch. If you look at the cruise missile it appears modular in nature rather than uniform. 

It is possible this is broken up into several components and smuggled into Yemen.

The lack of use points to a limited supply.



DoubleYouSee said:


> maybe for greater range



What does engine placement have to do with greater range?

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## Myself

Ya-Ali is being shown on screen from 2:31 to 2:41

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## Smarana Mitra

WinterNights said:


> The mq-4c triton has its first flight in 2013 and only delivered last year, it's the most advanced of this drone family. You have already been told this fact but it seems you're pretending to be sleep


This is not a new design but upgradation of electronics to the older design. So, the airframe still remains the older design


WinterNights said:


> You just contradicted yourself in your own statement  You said planes don't need to travel that high but yet still gave an example of a plane that does? Don't clown yourself.


I didn't contradict myself. I only said that the ceiling of planes generally doesn't extend above 15km. There are few exceptions but they are no longer in use due to the inefficiency of the design and hence there is no need for 30km ceiling for SAM.


WinterNights said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> 
> The wreck of mq-4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost same structure is used for F35 body


@Hack-Hook 
This is a standard method in all composite airframe. Composite is not as strong as metal and hence needs higher support in terms of these honeycomb structure. So, there is no stealth in honeycomb structure. Stealth is in RAM coating which has internal reflection structure but is completely different from honeycomb


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## WinterNights

Smarana Mitra said:


> This is not a new design but upgradation of electronics to the older design. So, the airframe still remains the older design



By this lame logic, all F-15 are the same old 1970's technology.



> I didn't contradict myself. I only said that the ceiling of planes generally doesn't extend above 15km. There are few exceptions but they are no longer in use due to the inefficiency of the design and hence there is no need for 30km ceiling for SAM.



You didn't say "generally". Try to read your own comments next time before blabbering none-sense.



> This is a standard method in all composite airframe. Composite is not as strong as metal and hence needs higher support in terms of these honeycomb structure. So, there is no stealth in honeycomb structure. Stealth is in RAM coating which has internal reflection structure but is completely different from honeycomb



You're clueless obviously. I have posted a picture showing different honeycomb systems that can be used as RAM. You're just talking out of your behind.

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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> What does engine placement have to do with greater range?


you can use the place engine occupied to more fuel, though I'm not sure.


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## arashkamangir

Mithridates said:


> you can use the place engine occupied to more fuel, though I'm not sure.



I doubt it that during the flight, it would fly with engine in upward position. I think it would flip upside down.


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## Mithridates

arashkamangir said:


> I doubt it that during the flight, it would fly with engine in upward position. I think it would flip upside down.


the wings prevent that, also the engine itself is the source of power in the air frame and it moves the structure not other way around.

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## PeeD

The Qods should be indeed a Ya-Ali variant, probably the Ya-Ali-2.
Design lessons learned from the Soumar have been added to it. A more cost effective engine, overall smaller and lighter. Range and probably even payload should have been stayed the same.
In total a better Ya-Ali, the low end of Irans LACM capabilities.
Iran may has skipped it because its 700km range may not be what Iran requires, but is perfect for Hezbollah and Yemen.
A few pages back I already said that in order for that engine to power a Kh-55/Soumar, it would need to be fueled at half level to fly. So Iran tailored the Kh-55 size to the new engine and simplified it with lessons from the Ya-Ali (e.g fixed wings).

The other news is that the "Sammad-3" UAV now has a wankel engine which allows for more fuel --> longer range/larger payload.

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## arashkamangir

Mithridates said:


> the wings prevent that, also the engine itself is the source of power in the air frame and it moves the structure not other way around.



Huh?

What I mean was that It does a roll in flight or it can be deployed upside down. It has flaps otherwise it wouldn't be able to bank during turns and if it has flaps, it can do a 180 roll. Having an air sucking engine at the top can cause stalls during pitch up depending on angle of attacks... albeit it is not as simple as that there are various variables involved.

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## Hack-Hook

Draco.IMF said:


> *New cruise missile, UAV and ballistic missile on display in Yemen*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *and now imagine Hezbollah....*


Yemen weapon not iranian ones.



Smarana Mitra said:


> I didn't contradict myself. I only said that the ceiling of planes generally doesn't extend above 15km. There are few exceptions but they are no longer in use due to the inefficiency of the design and hence there is no need for 30km ceiling for SAM.


So you say F-15 was an inefficient design and no longer in use ?
Well I only can disagree with you.



Smarana Mitra said:


> @Hack-Hook
> This is a standard method in all composite airframe. Composite is not as strong as metal and hence needs higher support in terms of these honeycomb structure. So, there is no stealth in honeycomb structure. Stealth is in RAM coating which has internal reflection structure but is completely different from honeycomb


Debries is in our hand not you then how you knew it won't use stealth technologies.
By the way even here they say they used techniques to reduce heat and radar signature of the plane

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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> Yemen weapon not iranian ones.


You're in denial of Iranian help to Yemen. Accept it once and for all that Iran has helped or/and is helping the Houthis. The radical change in the Houthis capabilities could not have been possible without Iranian involvement. Just like ISIS rise wasnt random, but very choreographed and synchronized, with big power players involved. If you continue your denial then you will be convicted to being on the wrong side of history. Denying it does not change the truth and reality. Iran has exported considerable, lethal knowledge and help to Houthis and thats the only reason Houthis have survived this long. Even back in 2004-2008, Iran and Houthis were in touch, but on a much smaller scale....thats not the relationship today anymore. I have no idea how Iran got all the IRGC + Hezbollah men into Yemen to aid the Houthis, but they did, and the Houthis are showing the result of the Iranian "investment". yemen was also a very easy target for Iranian intervention. The cost is relatively cheap, and the benefits are potentially huge...

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## Hack-Hook

925boy said:


> You're in denial of Iranian help to Yemen. Accept it once and for all that Iran has helped or/and is helping the Houthis. The radical change in the Houthis capabilities could not have been possible without Iranian involvement. Just like ISIS rise wasnt random, but very choreographed and synchronized, with big power players involved. If you continue your denial then you will be convicted to being on the wrong side of history. Denying it does not change the truth and reality. Iran has exported considerable, lethal knowledge and help to Houthis and thats the only reason Houthis have survived this long. Even back in 2004-2008, Iran and Houthis were in touch, but on a much smaller scale....thats not the relationship today anymore. I have no idea how Iran got all the IRGC + Hezbollah men into Yemen to aid the Houthis, but they did, and the Houthis are showing the result of the Iranian "investment". yemen was also a very easy target for Iranian intervention. The cost is relatively cheap, and the benefits are potentially huge...


My position as always is iran official position and what logic dictate . we have no access to yemen

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## Caspian Parsi

WinterNights said:


> You need to stop talking about matters you don't have a clue about because you only make yourself looks like a moron.
> 
> The UAV was flying at above 50,000 feet when Iran downed it, that by itself was a feat. Seconly, only bunch of clueless kids like you are acting as if this UAV was some helpless dove. This UAV had the sophisticated electronic warfare suit made by Raytheon. Just because it was not effective in front of Iranian SAM's, it does not mean it was defenceless.
> 
> 
> 
> The UAV has layers of honey-comb composite material designed to absorb radars waves for varying frequencies. Just because it is not as stealth as the F-22, it does not mean it did not have RCS lowering techniques employed on it.
> 
> 
> 
> You're obviously mentally handicapped. A mobile SAM in this context is one that is not static and can be moved easily and put into operation very quickly in another area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over and think people will buy it.
> 
> 1- The UAV was flying at well over 50,000 feet.
> 
> 2- The UAV did have varying RCS lowering techniques employed.
> 
> 3- The UAV has many varying countermeasures against being attack, but Iran rendered them ineffective.


thank you ,about time some one finally put this idiot in his place ,

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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> My position as always is iran official position and what logic dictate . we have no access to yemen



But we all know our govts dont tell us 100% of the truth. You are naive and deceived to believe Iranian govt's "official position" on this matter.

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## Hack-Hook

925boy said:


> But we all know our govts dont tell us 100% of the truth. You are naive and deceived to believe Iranian govt's "official position" on this matter.


Unless I see shipment of Iranian ballistic and cruise missiles captured or Iranian technician and advisors captured or killed there I have no reason not to believe them.

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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> Unless I see shipment of Iranian ballistic and cruise missiles captured or Iranian technician and advisors captured or killed there I have no reason not to believe them.


US state dept already has put on a display showing Missile fired by houthis that bore Iranian defense manufacturer/org's logo. They also showed drones that Houthis used that were of Iranian origin. You are blind on this issue..cant see the truth even if it was in your face..interesting.

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## Draco.IMF

*MISSILES AND DRONES: A CLOSE LOOK AT HOUTHIS’ NEW WEAPONS*

https://southfront.org/missiles-and-drones-a-close-look-at-houthis-new-weapons/

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## Hack-Hook

925boy said:


> US state dept already has put on a display showing Missile fired by houthis that bore Iranian defense manufacturer/org's logo. They also showed drones that Houthis used that were of Iranian origin. You are blind on this issue..cant see the truth even if it was in your face..interesting.


You mean those derbies they took from Syria and claimed they found in KSA but later it proven what they showed were part of 2-3 missile that they put beside each other.



925boy said:


> US state dept already has put on a display showing Missile fired by houthis that bore Iranian defense manufacturer/org's logo. They also showed drones that Houthis used that were of Iranian origin. You are blind on this issue..cant see the truth even if it was in your face..interesting.


Drones looked similar but building those drones is not nuclear science they can do it in any workshop also we exported those drones to many places they may get their hands on one and start copying them.


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## PeeD

The Qods or Ya-Ali looks great, a small calculation with the information available showed me that it's range could be Soumars 700km while still delivering a quite heavy 300kg warhead.

A incredibly efficient looking design.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> The Qods or Ya-Ali looks great, a small calculation with the information available showed me that it's range could be Soumars 700km while still delivering a quite heavy 300kg warhead.
> 
> A incredibly efficient looking design.



Except there is no way it was carrying a 300KG warhead based on the released Saudi Arabia CCTV footage. The explosion looks relatively weak.

Makes me wonder if warhead size was reduced to allow for greater distance and if the engine (export version?) Houthis are using is not as powerful.

Though wasn’t the distance traveled less than 250KM?

Something doesn’t add up there.

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Except there is no way it was carrying a 300KG warhead based on the released Saudi Arabia CCTV footage. The explosion looks relatively weak.
> 
> Makes me wonder if warhead size was reduced to allow for greater distance and if the engine (export version?) Houthis are using is not as powerful.
> 
> Though wasn’t the distance traveled less than 250KM?
> 
> Something doesn’t add up there.



I did a scaling analysis to come to those numbers.
One feature of scaling calculation is that it expects the same technology level as the original scale (Kh-55).

So 700km range @ 200-300kg payload is for a missile built at the tech. level of the Kh-55.
If it is worse due to lower capability, lower cost goal or import limitations then the numbers shrink down.

The key point here is however the possibilities this engine and Irans CM technology offers today and it what cost.

Tomahawk/Kh-55 deliver 400-450kg payload to 2500km and weight around 1300kg.
Both use complex and expensive turbofans.

The Qods/Ya-Ali-2 delivers a 200-300kg payload to 700km, weight 1/3 (airframe materials) and uses a very simple, inexpensive turbojet.

Given that many of Irans threats are within that range, it looks sufficiently economic to compete with Fateh series of BMs.
Even better: With high technology-level of Kh-55, Iran could develop a 1200km Israel-range version that still delivers a 200kg warhead. That's what scale calculations tell.

Many times I did question here the economic value a CM arsenal would make for Iran in light of its efficient BM arsenal. But with this technology approach and level of avionic miniaturization (beyond Kh-55 level).

Just one aspect to put things into perspective: The heart of the missile, its engine, is a single stage design while the Kh-55 needs a 9-stage turbofan...

One direct implication is that the Nasir AshM is not just a miniaturized Noor in terms of range, but rather a Qadr or Qadir with probably 180-250km range. Amazing performance for such a small and cheap AshM.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> I did a scaling analysis to come to those numbers.
> One feature of scaling calculation is that it expects the same technology level as the original scale (Kh-55).
> 
> So 700km range @ 200-300kg payload is for a missile built at the tech. level of the Kh-55.
> If it is worse due to lower capability, lower cost goal or import limitations then the numbers shrink down.
> 
> The key point here is however the possibilities this engine and Irans CM technology offers today and it what cost.
> 
> Tomahawk/Kh-55 deliver 400-450kg payload to 2500km and weight around 1300kg.
> Both use complex and expensive turbofans.
> 
> The Qods/Ya-Ali-2 delivers a 200-300kg payload to 700km, weight 1/3 (airframe materials) and uses a very simple, inexpensive turbojet.
> 
> Given that many of Irans threats are within that range, it looks sufficiently economic to compete with Fateh series of BMs.
> Even better: With high technology-level of Kh-55, Iran could develop a 1200km Israel-range version that still delivers a 200kg warhead. That's what scale calculations tell.
> 
> Many times I did question here the economic value a CM arsenal would make for Iran in light of its efficient BM arsenal. But with this technology approach and level of avionic miniaturization (beyond Kh-55 level).
> 
> Just one aspect to put things into perspective: The heart of the missile, its engine, is a single stage design while the Kh-55 needs a 9-stage turbofan...
> 
> One direct implication is that the Nasir AshM is not just a miniaturized Noor in terms of range, but rather a Qadr or Qadir with probably 180-250km range. Amazing performance for such a small and cheap AshM.



I thought earlier you said that Iran cannot reliably build a KH-55 tech level engine. At least not cost efficiently. Hence why we saw the Soumar “drop” down engine be replaced with a static fixed engine in follow up Variant Hoveyzeh.

So now Iran somehow managed to take a Kh-55 tech level engine and scale it to Ya-Ali?

I’m a bit skeptical. Iran has had ample opportunities to use these for testing in Syria or Kurdistan and has not.

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> I thought earlier you said that Iran cannot reliably build a KH-55 tech level engine. At least not cost efficiently. Hence why we saw the Soumar “drop” down engine be replaced with a static fixed engine in follow up Variant Hoveyzeh.
> 
> So now Iran somehow managed to take a Kh-55 tech level engine and scale it to Ya-Ali?
> 
> I’m a bit skeptical. Iran has had ample opportunities to use these for testing in Syria or Kurdistan and has not.



What I said is still true: Iran has not yet shown a equivalent to the Kh-55 engine, a complex 9 stage turbofan.
The Qods/Ya-Ali-2 has a different engine, see Saudi claims.
Iran has mastered miniaturization to get following system benefits/penalties:
- Weight reduction of weapon system of 66%
- Payload reduction of 50%
- range reduction of 50%
- Engine design reduced from turbofan to turbojet
- Engine compressor stages reduced from 9 to 1
- Certainly cheaper avionic system components with significantly reduced weight.

So that's the trade-off situation. It can be credibly assumed that overall system cost has reduced by at least 50%, I would predict 75%.
So for each Kh-55 Iran can get 4 Qods/Ya-Ali-2 @ half the range and half the payload.
That starts to get very cost efficient.

However if Iran wants an equivalent to the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 with a range to strike all of Europe, it would need to switch to the complex Kh-55 turbofan.

The Howeyzeh already uses a larger, more complex and expensive technology approach to cover all of Israel with a heavier payload. That "Ya-Ali-3" predicted by my calculations may still be beyond Irans miniaturization capabilities, but technically so feasible that Iran will certainly pursue it.

The significance is quite high: With that cost-level it can seriously contest fighter-based airpower at mid-to-high threat situations.



TheImmortal said:


> I’m a bit skeptical. Iran has had ample opportunities to use these for testing in Syria or Kurdistan and has not.



Many systems are tested in covert operations. There is a track record for this in Iran.

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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> You mean those derbies they took from Syria and claimed they found in KSA but later it proven what they showed were part of 2-3 missile that they put beside each other.


Can you show us the evidence those debris came from Syria? Tbh, i dont believe Iran has fired that type of Missile US state dept put on display from Saudi Arabia into Syria.



> Drones looked similar but building those drones is not nuclear science they can do it in any workshop also we exported those drones to many places they may get their hands on one and start copying them.


false. then why cant many more countries make drones? most of ME cant make these drones either. You already know Iran is a top 5 or 6 drone maker in the world, its obviously not an easily attainable skill. Even Iran leads Russia in drones now, so NO, there is no way a Yemen that didnt have drones before the way, will end up "self-manufacturing" simple looking but complex drones after their country and manufacturing base has been destroyed by Saudis air force. It doesnt add up. and suicide drones? in large #s? How the F did Houthis fire that cruise missile at UAE's airport that missed? Yemen has never shown those capabilities before so they couldnt have just gotten it all of a sudden. u must believe in miracles..

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## Hack-Hook

925boy said:


> Can you show us the evidence those debris came from Syria? Tbh, i dont believe Iran has fired that type of Missile US state dept put on display from Saudi Arabia into Syria.


we had fired two of the same exact type of missile into Syria just weeks before



925boy said:


> false. then why cant many more countries make drones? most of ME cant make these drones either.


they can buy it cheaper from Amazon , we have sophisticated drone that not everybody can build and also we have primitive ones that they can build in their garage , those suicide drones can be built in garages , something like Mohajer - 6 or Shahed - 129 can't be built 
This one is built by a high school





this one is #D Printed by one guy in Mashhad

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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> we had fired two of the same exact type of missile into Syria just weeks before


Are you sure? please show me pics of the ones you fired in SYria and i will find the ones US displayed and compare.



> they can buy it cheaper from Amazon , we have sophisticated drone that not everybody can build and also we have primitive ones that they can build in their garage , those suicide drones can be built in garages ,


if this is the case why dont most of the world militaries that cant make drones BUY THEM FROM amazon? huuh? 



> This one is built by a high school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one is #D Printed by one guy in Mashhad


Do you mean actually built or just designed? And which engines are these drones using? Just because high schoolers can make aircraft like these that look like drones does not mean these are good drones for military use.


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## Hack-Hook

925boy said:


> Are you sure? please show me pics of the ones you fired in SYria and i will find the ones US displayed and compare.
> 
> 
> if this is the case why dont most of the world militaries that cant make drones BUY THEM FROM amazon? huuh?
> 
> 
> Do you mean actually built or just designed? And which engines are these drones using? Just because high schoolers can make aircraft like these that look like drones does not mean these are good drones for military use.


the video of the missile launch was put hثre in the forum and according to Fars News in Moharram Strike (ضربت محرم) Operation we fired two Qiam and several Zolfaqar into syria and this is Qiam




here you can find a video of firing the missiles
http://www.iribnews.ir/fa/news/2240728/سرنوشت-دشمنِ-ایران-و-ایرانی



925boy said:


> Do you mean actually built or just designed? And which engines are these drones using? Just because high schoolers can make aircraft like these that look like drones does not mean these are good drones for military use.



they claim they built it its a video
https://www.aparat.com/v/2PQLF/پهپاد_ساحرساخته_شده_توسط_دانش_آموزان_دبیرستان_علامه_حلی

by the way a uav is a robot and a suicide uav is not that sophisticated , if you go and look at the robocop competition you see the students are building robots that these suicide drone are nothing compared to them

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## Ich

Yes, onla a handful countries can make Drones...oh, wait...


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## Russel

IRGC launched precision strike on Iraqi Kurdistan near Iran border. 
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019...er-with-Iraqi-Kurdistan-inflicts-heavy-losses

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## Smarana Mitra

WinterNights said:


> You're clueless obviously. I have posted a picture showing different honeycomb systems that can be used as RAM. You're just talking out of your behind.


Honey comb structure is for rigidity of composite airframe and is internal to the airframe. How can you call that as stealth? Composite usage does reduce RCS but it is not stealth. It serves dual purpose of reducing weight and RCS. But it has no special effort to increase stealth.

RAM is placed outside the airframe, not inside as you have shown those internal honeycomb. Why would anyone think that honey comb is stealth Technology? Nowadays, some tyres of high end vehicles or bullet proof tyres also use honeycomb Technology to give extra structural strength to withstand punctures.



Hack-Hook said:


> So you say F-15 was an inefficient design and no longer in use ?
> Well I only can disagree with you


Does F15 fly above 15km (52000 feet)? It can fly at 15km or in slight periphery above it but definitely not significantly above it.



Hack-Hook said:


> Debries is in our hand not you then how you knew it won't use stealth technologies.
> By the way even here they say they used techniques to reduce heat and radar signature of the plane


The composite usage reduces radar signature and heat but that doesn't make it stealth. You can not simply call any non metallic airframe as stealth Technology. Stealth is when there is design to cause stealth



925boy said:


> false. then why cant many more countries make drones? most of ME cant make these drones either.


Countries like Pakistan, Turkey also make drones. The ME countries are lazy to do any work at all. ME countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE etc don't even make cycles. This hasn't got anything to do with complicated Technology.

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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> It serves dual purpose of reducing weight and RCS. But it has no special effort to increase stealth.


well, by definition reducing RCS means increasing stealth


Smarana Mitra said:


> RAM is placed outside the airframe, not inside as you have shown those internal honeycomb. Why would anyone think that honey comb is stealth Technology? Nowadays, some tyres of high end vehicles or bullet proof tyres also use honeycomb Technology to give extra structural strength to withstand punctures.


it can applied outside or even in constructing those honeycombs or both
https://assets.cambridge.org/97811070/92617/excerpt/9781107092617_excerpt.pdf



Smarana Mitra said:


> Does F15 fly above 15km (52000 feet)? It can fly at 15km or in slight periphery above it but definitely not significantly above it.


ig you did some research you knew that f-15 can fly well above that , it can easily fly at 20km even higher , so please in your attampt to compare 3rd of Khordad with your Akash airdefence and claim they have same capabilites plese don't insult F-15 it has a record of 103000 feet


Smarana Mitra said:


> The composite usage reduces radar signature and heat but that doesn't make it stealth. You can not simply call any non metallic airframe as stealth Technology. Stealth is when there is design to cause stealth


you must go and talk with gambit ,he can tell you that your definition of stealth is wrong.

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## PeeD

Frank answers from Uzi Rubin here.

His take on missile vs. airpower is basically what I preached for years and got much opposition for it.
Many of his Israeli and western friends made fun of Irans BM approach but this phase is over as he openly speaks about admiring Irans defense approach.

Important points:
- Deterrence without nuclear warheads via precision strike BMs in massive numbers
- Iran's cost efficient warfare --> don't use own airforce in Syria but get Russians in
- Iran's avoidance to get into the airpower game (IRIAF - Su-30 trap) --> "conventional airpower is something from WWII"
- ABM systems have great problems with hypersonic weapons (of which at least the Zolfaghar/Dezful BM is an early (high supersonic" representative).
- Smart and admirable minds behind Irans defense decision making.

Thanks to baradarane militaryIR for finding it.

The truth is, Iran's leader Khamenei was basically behind it and the motivation was "the impossibel": Enable military confrontation with the remaining superpower of the planet. Every step the decision makers made formed the basis on what Iran can do today. Every avoidance of a wrong path or investment was vital to get here where Iran is today. Viewing Irans threat potential of post-war 1988 and today shows the incredible distance left behind.
I guess like Rubin I found it impossible for Iran to reach this capability against the U.S back until the mid-2000's.

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## Mithridates

PeeD said:


> Frank answers from Uzi Rubin here.
> 
> His take on missile vs. airpower is basically what I preached for years and got much opposition for it.
> Many of his Israeli and western friends made fun of Irans BM approach but this phase is over as he openly speaks about admiring Irans defense approach.
> 
> Important points:
> - Deterrence without nuclear warheads via precision strike BMs in massive numbers
> - Iran's cost efficient warfare --> don't use own airforce in Syria but get Russians in
> - Iran's avoidance to get into the airpower game (IRIAF - Su-30 trap) --> "conventional airpower is something from WWII"
> - ABM systems have great problems with hypersonic weapons (of which at least the Zolfaghar/Dezful BM is an early (high supersonic" representative).
> - Smart and admirable minds behind Irans defense decision making.
> 
> Thanks to baradarane militaryIR for finding it.
> 
> The truth is, Iran's leader Khamenei was basically behind it and the motivation was "the impossibel": Enable military confrontation with the remaining superpower of the planet. Every step the decision makers made formed the basis on what Iran can do today. Every avoidance of a wrong path or investment was vital to get here where Iran is today. Viewing Irans threat potential of post-war 1988 and today shows the incredible distance left behind.
> I guess like Rubin I found it impossible for Iran to reach this capability against the U.S back until the mid-2000's.


but for wining a war you need air power. that's true we can send any nation to stone age if a war broke out, but without AF you can't provide air support to your ground units resulting in their lower hand against enemy resulting with an army that only can defend. Syria clearly showed that. also missiles have no anti radiation capability so as against moving targets. an old phantom with three fuel tanks, two qased-3+4 sidewinders/pl-7s+6 yasin GPS guided glide bomb (or good old AGM-65s) can travel almost 500 km~zolfagar range (considering qased range). while you can hit 1 place with zolfagar, in the phantom case you can hit 8 ground and 4 aerial targets. you can hit enemy radars with su-24 and su-30, missiles can't do that. you can't achieve this much of flexibility by BMs unless you have satellites.


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## yavar




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## OldTwilight

Traitors ...

Reformers are like young white whom enjoy being fucked and gangbanged while claiming they are virgin ....

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## PeeD

Mithridates said:


> but for wining a war you need air power. that's true we can send any nation to stone age if a war broke out, but without AF you can't provide air support to your ground units resulting in their lower hand against enemy resulting with an army that only can defend. Syria clearly showed that. also missiles have no anti radiation capability so as against moving targets. an old phantom with three fuel tanks, two qased-3+4 sidewinders/pl-7s+6 yasin GPS guided glide bomb (or good old AGM-65s) can travel almost 500 km~zolfagar range (considering qased range). while you can hit 1 place with zolfagar, in the phantom case you can hit 8 ground and 4 aerial targets. you can hit enemy radars with su-24 and su-30, missiles can't do that. you can't achieve this much of flexibility by BMs unless you have satellites.



Just a few days ago Iran demonstrated UAV laser designation and laser guided artillery shells for them. Plus the potential of UCAVs + quadcopters. For anti radiation missions Iran has suicide drones and Hormuz series of missiles.

I already discussed the issue a year or so ago here. There is no intimidate need for fighter-bomber based airpower.
The elegance and smartness is to realize this before you get yourself a expensive fleet.

Syria would have probably got better results if Irans UCAV fleet of efficient S-123/-191 would be sufficiently strong and employed back then.

Your Phantom example is good, however that mission can be performed by a MALE turbo-prop heavy payload UCAV. After the high intensity phase of the warfare and a degraded opponent, such a MALE UCAV will be survivable enough while costing 1/10 the F-4 mission costs.

As for reconnaissance satellites are of course good, but Iran is also working on SAR based long range reconnaissance by stealthy UAV systems.

As said, this all was already discussed here.

Airpower was and is an economical trap for Iran right now. I could think about a ~2025 replacement of F-4, F-14, Mig-29 and Su-24 by 150, high speed, long range manned interceptor/bombers. Mainly for tactical flexibility via interception and cruise missile delivery. The rest should be unmanned and unconventional.

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## Mithridates

PeeD said:


> Just a few days ago Iran demonstrated UAV laser designation and laser guided artillery shells for them. Plus the potential of UCAVs + quadcopters. For anti radiation missions Iran has suicide drones and Hormuz series of missiles.
> 
> I already discussed the issue a year or so ago here. There is no intimidate need for fighter-bomber based airpower.
> The elegance and smartness is to realize this before you get yourself a expensive fleet.
> 
> Syria would have probably got better results if Irans UCAV fleet of efficient S-123/-191 would be sufficiently strong and employed back then.
> 
> Your Phantom example is good, however that mission can be performed by a MALE turbo-prop heavy payload UCAV. After the high intensity phase of the warfare and a degraded opponent, such a MALE UCAV will be survivable enough while costing 1/10 the F-4 mission costs.
> 
> As for reconnaissance satellites are of course good, but Iran is also working on SAR based long range reconnaissance by stealthy UAV systems.
> 
> As said, this all was already discussed here.
> 
> Airpower was and is an economical trap for Iran right now. I could think about a ~2025 replacement of F-4, F-14, Mig-29 and Su-24 by 150, high speed, long range manned interceptor/bombers. Mainly for tactical flexibility via interception and cruise missile delivery. The rest should be unmanned and unconventional.


i understand the smarty way of projecting power that Iran pursues but to replace AF completely we need our own satellites, artificial intelligence and that quantum communication. with these we maybe do not need a big air fleet.

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## Ich

Mithridates said:


> i understand the smarty way of projecting power that Iran pursues but to replace AF completely we need our own satellites, artificial intelligence and that quantum communication. with these we maybe do not need a big air fleet.



For guidance of Fighter-UAVs you do not need explicit satellites. Due to the geography of the greater east, and here the regions in the west and northwest and southwest of Iran and Iran itself, you can make long range land based positioning systems which will reach from Iran to Egypt/Italy/Israel/Cyprus/Somalia/Yemen and Diego Garcia.

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## Arminkh

PeeD said:


> Frank answers from Uzi Rubin here.
> 
> His take on missile vs. airpower is basically what I preached for years and got much opposition for it.
> Many of his Israeli and western friends made fun of Irans BM approach but this phase is over as he openly speaks about admiring Irans defense approach.
> 
> Important points:
> - Deterrence without nuclear warheads via precision strike BMs in massive numbers
> - Iran's cost efficient warfare --> don't use own airforce in Syria but get Russians in
> - Iran's avoidance to get into the airpower game (IRIAF - Su-30 trap) --> "conventional airpower is something from WWII"
> - ABM systems have great problems with hypersonic weapons (of which at least the Zolfaghar/Dezful BM is an early (high supersonic" representative).
> - Smart and admirable minds behind Irans defense decision making.
> 
> Thanks to baradarane militaryIR for finding it.
> 
> The truth is, Iran's leader Khamenei was basically behind it and the motivation was "the impossibel": Enable military confrontation with the remaining superpower of the planet. Every step the decision makers made formed the basis on what Iran can do today. Every avoidance of a wrong path or investment was vital to get here where Iran is today. Viewing Irans threat potential of post-war 1988 and today shows the incredible distance left behind.
> I guess like Rubin I found it impossible for Iran to reach this capability against the U.S back until the mid-2000's.


"…. Look at how Iran took out Kurdish full command structure from inside an airconditioned room by pressing a button and what west would do in similar circumstances: Use large expensive airports, launch number of F-16s, put pilots' life in danger and drop precision bombs! Look at this and tell me who is advanced and how is behind?!"

Love it! lol

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## Hack-Hook

Arminkh said:


> "…. Look at how Iran took out Kurdish full command structure from inside an airconditioned room by pressing a button and what west would do in similar circumstances: Use large expensive airports, launch number of F-16s, put pilots' life in danger and drop precision bombs! Look at this and tell me who is advanced and how is behind?!"
> 
> Love it! lol


but we didn't fire the missiles from Airconditioned room . we drove tells at night positioned them and fired the missiles from there


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## skyshadow

*Exclusive: The Iranian Man Behind Hezbollah's Missile Program*

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## Arminkh

Hack-Hook said:


> but we didn't fire the missiles from Airconditioned room . we drove tells at night positioned them and fired the missiles from there


I'm sure the tells were not that far away from that airconditioned room.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Just a few days ago Iran demonstrated UAV laser designation and laser guided artillery shells for them. Plus the potential of UCAVs + quadcopters. For anti radiation missions Iran has suicide drones and Hormuz series of missiles.
> 
> I already discussed the issue a year or so ago here. There is no intimidate need for fighter-bomber based airpower.
> The elegance and smartness is to realize this before you get yourself a expensive fleet.
> 
> Syria would have probably got better results if Irans UCAV fleet of efficient S-123/-191 would be sufficiently strong and employed back then.
> 
> Your Phantom example is good, however that mission can be performed by a MALE turbo-prop heavy payload UCAV. After the high intensity phase of the warfare and a degraded opponent, such a MALE UCAV will be survivable enough while costing 1/10 the F-4 mission costs.
> 
> As for reconnaissance satellites are of course good, but Iran is also working on SAR based long range reconnaissance by stealthy UAV systems.
> 
> As said, this all was already discussed here.
> 
> Airpower was and is an economical trap for Iran right now. I could think about a ~2025 replacement of F-4, F-14, Mig-29 and Su-24 by 150, high speed, long range manned interceptor/bombers. Mainly for tactical flexibility via interception and cruise missile delivery. The rest should be unmanned and unconventional.



The Syrian war alone dropped more KG’s of explosives than Iran’s entire arsenal of missiles. A Single Russian TU-22M3 Doing a SINGLE bombing run dropped 23,000 KG of explosives or the equivalent of 22-25 long range Iranian Missiles.

To think your suggestion of turbo prop UAVs could turn the tide of the war when not only do you need massive payloads but quick and timely delivery....is borderline fantasy.

Maybe against a banana country like Qatar or Egypt such a strategy could work. But against even a somewhat formidable opponent like Turkey it would be failure. Let alone major world powers.

People forget how fast Iran’s Missile arsenal would be exhausted in a major war not even accounting for interception, failure to hit target with reasonable CEP, and mechanical issues.

To rely ONLY on missiles is to make yourself 2D.

If Iran can’t take 10,000 cruise missiles and still retaliate then you sure as hell better believe your opponent can take 10,000 BMs and still retaliate. Iran is not an exception to the rule.



Arminkh said:


> "…. Look at how Iran took out Kurdish full command structure from inside an airconditioned room by pressing a button and what west would do in similar circumstances: Use large expensive airports, launch number of F-16s, put pilots' life in danger and drop precision bombs! Look at this and tell me who is advanced and how is behind?!"
> 
> Love it! lol



Uri over-exaggerates Iran’s threat in order to advance Zionist agenda which is get US to force Iran to rein in missile program.

Now trump says iran ready to negotiate on missile program because of Zarif’s comments.

So Uri completed his job by making Iran’s missiles sound like some super weapon.

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> The Syrian war alone dropped more KG’s of explosives than Iran’s entire arsenal of missiles. A Single Russian TU-22M3 Doing a SINGLE bombing run dropped 23,000 KG of explosives or the equivalent of 22-25 long range Iranian Missiles.



That is no argument. Tu-22M3 drops dumb bombs while Irans missile are or will be PGM like.
It becomes an argument if you talk about SVP-24 equipped Su-24 that enable suffciently accurate bombing with dumb bombs. However even the the problem is: Just use more cost efficient platforms such as the F-5 or a truck launched turboprop UAV.




TheImmortal said:


> To think your suggestion of turbo prop UAVs could turn the tide of the war when not only do you need massive payloads but quick and timely delivery....is borderline fantasy.



You got Zolfaghar like missiles for time critical targets. 
Subsonic speed delivery by a fighter-bomber is not exactly for time critical targets and neither CMs.
That turboprop UAV is there to deliver 250-1000kg dumb bombs with a SVP-24 like ballistic calculation system. To neutralize large structures (or create shock effect) at maximum cost efficiency. Or Iranian JDAM if higher accuracy is required.
The real air support would be by S-123 high endurance UCAV with Sadid series of PGMs.



TheImmortal said:


> Maybe against a banana country like Qatar or Egypt such a strategy could work. But against even a somewhat formidable opponent like Turkey it would be failure. Let alone major world powers.



The idea behind this is to degrade the opponent to a "banana" like country with missiles and then use UAV based airpower to clean up the rest. Btw. Egypt and Turkey are at about the same warfighting capacity.



TheImmortal said:


> People forget how fast Iran’s Missile arsenal would be exhausted in a major war not even accounting for interception, failure to hit target with reasonable CEP, and mechanical issues.



You need to check how many critical targets various possible opponents of Iran have. You use missile where it is worth it. Irans numbers are immense and the previously terminally unguided arsenal of Shahab and Ghadr series is currently upgraded to precision strike capable BMs.



TheImmortal said:


> To rely ONLY on missiles is to make yourself 2D.



That's true to some extend and that's why Iran has kept the IRIAF. Whats important is that 80% of the offensive strike capability come from the missile forces. The IRIAF adds a dimension mainly in form of forcing enemy airpower to defend against it by carrying AAMs, keeping an airbattle fuel reserve etc.
Same thing with CMs, they mainly force the opponent to invest in a additional defense layer against them. The CM situation may have changed by the Houthi-presented "Ya-Ali-2": This design may be sufficiently cost effective to compete with Irans BMs in some scenarios.



TheImmortal said:


> If Iran can’t take 10,000 cruise missiles and still retaliate then you sure as hell better believe your opponent can take 10,000 BMs and still retaliate. Iran is not an exception to the rule.



Try to analyse more accurately. Irans war-machinery is designed to be survivable, either disguised, hardened, low footprint or expandable. Alone getting rid of airbases is a huge plus for survivability.
Hence the enemy can spend 10.000 CMs on Iran and it will maintain its key capabilities, especially for retaliation.
That's the elegance of Irans approach.

But on the other hand the enemy will suffer badly by high supersonic penetrating BMs especially due to its airbase based airpower. Uzi Rubin is just frank there.

So Iran is a exception of the rule do it its right decisions. Its just hard to believe how elegantly Iran achieves this.



TheImmortal said:


> Uri over-exaggerates Iran’s threat in order to advance Zionist agenda which is get US to force Iran to rein in missile program.



He is concerned and want Israel to copy some of Irans concepts.

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## Arminkh

TheImmortal said:


> The Syrian war alone dropped more KG’s of explosives than Iran’s entire arsenal of missiles. A Single Russian TU-22M3 Doing a SINGLE bombing run dropped 23,000 KG of explosives or the equivalent of 22-25 long range Iranian Missiles.
> 
> To think your suggestion of turbo prop UAVs could turn the tide of the war when not only do you need massive payloads but quick and timely delivery....is borderline fantasy.
> 
> Maybe against a banana country like Qatar or Egypt such a strategy could work. But against even a somewhat formidable opponent like Turkey it would be failure. Let alone major world powers.
> 
> People forget how fast Iran’s Missile arsenal would be exhausted in a major war not even accounting for interception, failure to hit target with reasonable CEP, and mechanical issues.
> 
> To rely ONLY on missiles is to make yourself 2D.
> 
> If Iran can’t take 10,000 cruise missiles and still retaliate then you sure as hell better believe your opponent can take 10,000 BMs and still retaliate. Iran is not an exception to the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> Uri over-exaggerates Iran’s threat in order to advance Zionist agenda which is get US to force Iran to rein in missile program.
> 
> Now trump says iran ready to negotiate on missile program because of Zarif’s comments.
> 
> So Uri completed his job by making Iran’s missiles sound like some super weapon.


On the contrary, Iran's missiles were always Trump agenda and one of their original 12 conditions for negotiations.

I think Trump knows that sooner or later he needs to get back to the deal and negotiations so what Pompeo and Trump said about Iran willingness to negotiate about its missiles is for internal consumption.

Internal pressure is building up against Trump. Dem Barbara Lee has introduced a resolution for US reentry to the nuclear deal. It probably won't pass but shows you what is going on. Trump is losing this fight with Iran:

https://price.house.gov/newsroom/pr...s-tensions-iran-reps-lee-price-and-schakowsky

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## Hassan Al-Somal

Since Israeli warplanes are violating the Lebanese airspace on daily basis without the consent of the Lebanese government, not sure why would they make noises about an Iranian engineer who is helping the Lebanese resistance? Perhaps they don't want any group in the Middle East that can challenge their dominance. 



skyshadow said:


> *Exclusive: The Iranian Man Behind Hezbollah's Missile Program*

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## Arminkh

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> Since Israeli warplanes are violating the Lebanese airspace on daily basis without the consent of the Lebanese government, not sure why would they make noises about an Iranian engineer who is helping the Lebanese resistance? Perhaps they don't want any group in the Middle East that can challenge their dominance.


Of course they don't.

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## PeeD

There is meanwhile a good likelihood that this system shown at the 2017 parade in North Korea is connected to Iran.
Back then, North Koreans showed their lightweight liquid ICBMs and heavy weight ones. This one would be a untested solid fuel light ICBM.

Now what is the Iran link?
Well, it was a bold parade that showed 3 parallel strategic programs:
- Liquid lightweight (demonstrated)
- Liquid heavyweight (demonstrated)
- Solid lightweight (not demonstrated)

This sudden appearance of a heavyweight and solid lightweight added to the existing liquid lightweight they were certainly working on, looked amazing but not really credible.
So it might well be that this third solid lightweight was either a early demonstrator, a fake mock-up modeled on DF-31 or a mock-up of an Iranian system (planned to?) transferred to them. Bear in mind that any presented system must look credible enough for enemy experts to believe it.

North Korean missile school favors all-terrain and tracked vehicles for their missiles. When the showed a "Nodong" variant similar to the Ghadr around the late 2000's, it looked like a technology transfer from Iran but the didn't use the road-grade truck of Iranian Ghadr but a MAZ TEL variant.
Hence it looks suspicious: Their Nodong MAZ TELs were available for that Ghadr related Nodong variant but creating a credible looking MAZ based TEL for the new missile would be a difficult task.
Admitted: Their all-terrain TEL capabilities/numbers might not have been sufficient in 2017 to created MAZ variant trucks for the new missile and hence they were forced to use a road-truck TEL.

Next point: It is true that the core of Irans solid fuel missile team was martyred together with Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam, but the capabilities have been regained to some extend.
(according to ***** TV series it was sabotage via Mossad/MEK, intended leak?)
We know that Iran tests ICBM-size boosters via Armscontrolwonk while we don't know about North Korea doing something like that.
Both NK and Iran (Zolfaghar BM) have displayed capability of filament composite casings. Iran probably even carbon fiber based filament technology. Hence the <2m diameter and <18m length of this lightweight ICBM could be weithin miniaturization capabilities of both countries. Original DF-31 ICBM which is larger is very similar in TEL layout but should be a cruder high strength steel based design which requires ~30% larger size.
2008 vintage Sejil design also still used high strength steel based casing technology. The new missile would then represent a filament casing Sejil with diameter improved from 1,3m to 1,9m while keeping the 17-18m lenght, plus better TVC technology. Via those changes the range would improve from 2000km to 12000km.

Sounds much? Well the Dezul has *10-20% total larger dimensions* than the Fathe-110 but improved the range from originally 250km 4-fold to 1000km. Now scale this to the Sejil and the new missile: *50% larger diameter* than the Sejil, then a 6-fold range increase instead of 4-fold from Fateh to Dezful would be well feasible.

NK showed Aramid/Kevlar based filament technology but Iran looks to have carbon fiber based filament technology. NK has demonstrated solid-fuel-grade TVC vane technology compact and fast-acting enough for a container launched missile without fins, Iran not yet.

The new missile is a very compact ICBM around the same size as Irans Ghadr, Sejil and Shahab-3 TELs. It's warhead might weight just 600-800kg, sufficient for an advanced nuclear warhead but it would only make sense for a <50m CEP conventional warhead.
Iran has not demonstrated a cold launched container based missile, while NK has. Container launch increases cost and is not a must for a climate like Irans. Plus carbon fiber filament casings are also expensive.
So a important question is what economical sense such a single warhead ICBM would make if it does not use nuclear warheads primarily.
So this is the next point: Iran has demonstrated necessary accurate long range accuracy by the Khorramshahr-2 testing video. Can it be scaled to ICBM range or would the INS drift so much that no CEP of <50m is possible @ 12000km? Can terminal course corrections be performed at the incredible high thermal and aerodynamic stress of a ICBM range re-entry?
Huge technological hurdles but if it is possible for Iran, then a conventional lightweight, single warhead ICBM would make sense for Iran against very high value targets. Otherwise a heavy liquid ICBM with MRV, MIRV would be a significantly more cost effective approach.
With a CEP of >200m for a very good, high-speed terminally unguided warhead, a 600-800kg conventional warhead would probably already make no economic sense anymore.

So is the missile at the North Korean parade actually the fruit of Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam and his teams efforts used by NK to display a higher capability than it has?
I think there is a good chance for it.
Has Iran just gave a credible mock-up or transferred the technology to them? Well possible that the whole technology was transferred for their help in other fields.
Is the system robust enough without having being tested? Well possible; boosters with the size have been tested in Iran. Key open hurdle is re-entry and thermal technology barriers. But Irans and NKs understanding of BMs and simulation capabilities seems to be so advanced, that systems are robust enough when finished to work on correctly the first flight.

When I looked at photos from the DF-31 in the early 2000's I wondered when Iran can reach something similar. If this systems turns out to be the alleged light ICBM completed by Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams team (heavy solid ICBM/SLV project ended in the sabotage disaster?), then it is even better than the DF-31...

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> There is meanwhile a good likelihood that this system shown at the 2017 parade in North Korea is connected to Iran.
> Back then, North Koreans showed their lightweight liquid ICBMs and heavy weight ones. This one would be a untested solid fuel light ICBM.
> 
> Now what is the Iran link?
> Well, it was a bold parade that showed 3 parallel strategic programs:
> - Liquid lightweight (demonstrated)
> - Liquid heavyweight (demonstrated)
> - Solid lightweight (not demonstrated)
> 
> This sudden appearance of a heavyweight and solid lightweight added to the existing liquid lightweight they were certainly working on, looked amazing but not really credible.
> So it might well be that this third solid lightweight was either a early demonstrator, a fake mock-up modeled on DF-31 or a mock-up of an Iranian system (planned to?) transferred to them. Bear in mind that any presented system must look credible enough for enemy experts to believe it.
> 
> North Korean missile school favors all-terrain and tracked vehicles for their missiles. When the showed a "Nodong" variant similar to the Ghadr around the late 2000's, it looked like a technology transfer from Iran but the didn't use the road-grade truck of Iranian Ghadr but a MAZ TEL variant.
> Hence it looks suspicious: Their Nodong MAZ TELs were available for that Ghadr related Nodong variant but creating a credible looking MAZ based TEL for the new missile would be a difficult task.
> Admitted: Their all-terrain TEL capabilities/numbers might not have been sufficient in 2017 to created MAZ variant trucks for the new missile and hence they were forced to use a road-truck TEL.
> 
> Next point: It is true that the core of Irans solid fuel missile team was martyred together with Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam, but the capabilities have been regained to some extend.
> (according to ***** TV series it was sabotage via Mossad/MEK, intended leak?)
> We know that Iran tests ICBM-size boosters via Armscontrolwonk while we don't know about North Korea doing something like that.
> Both NK and Iran (Zolfaghar BM) have displayed capability of filament composite casings. Iran probably even carbon fiber based filament technology. Hence the <2m diameter and <18m length of this lightweight ICBM could be weithin miniaturization capabilities of both countries. Original DF-31 ICBM which is larger is very similar in TEL layout but should be a cruder high strength steel based design which requires ~30% larger size.
> 2008 vintage Sejil design also still used high strength steel based casing technology. The new missile would then represent a filament casing Sejil with diameter improved from 1,3m to 1,9m while keeping the 17-18m lenght, plus better TVC technology. Via those changes the range would improve from 2000km to 12000km.
> 
> Sounds much? Well the Dezul has *10-20% total larger dimensions* than the Fathe-110 but improved the range from originally 250km 4-fold to 1000km. Now scale this to the Sejil and the new missile: *50% larger diameter* than the Sejil, then a 6-fold range increase instead of 4-fold from Fateh to Dezful would be well feasible.
> 
> NK showed Aramid/Kevlar based filament technology but Iran looks to have carbon fiber based filament technology. NK has demonstrated solid-fuel-grade TVC vane technology compact and fast-acting enough for a container launched missile without fins, Iran not yet.
> 
> The new missile is a very compact ICBM around the same size as Irans Ghadr, Sejil and Shahab-3 TELs. It's warhead might weight just 600-800kg, sufficient for an advanced nuclear warhead but it would only make sense for a <50m CEP conventional warhead.
> Iran has not demonstrated a cold launched container based missile, while NK has. Container launch increases cost and is not a must for a climate like Irans. Plus carbon fiber filament casings are also expensive.
> So a important question is what economical sense such a single warhead ICBM would make if it does not use nuclear warheads primarily.
> So this is the next point: Iran has demonstrated necessary accurate long range accuracy by the Khorramshahr-2 testing video. Can it be scaled to ICBM range or would the INS drift so much that no CEP of <50m is possible @ 12000km? Can terminal course corrections be performed at the incredible high thermal and aerodynamic stress of a ICBM range re-entry?
> Huge technological hurdles but if it is possible for Iran, then a conventional lightweight, single warhead ICBM would make sense for Iran against very high value targets. Otherwise a heavy liquid ICBM with MRV, MIRV would be a significantly more cost effective approach.
> With a CEP of >200m for a very good, high-speed terminally unguided warhead, a 600-800kg conventional warhead would probably already make no economic sense anymore.
> 
> So is the missile at the North Korean parade actually the fruit of Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam and his teams efforts used by NK to display a higher capability than it has?
> I think there is a good chance for it.
> Has Iran just gave a credible mock-up or transferred the technology to them? Well possible that the whole technology was transferred for their help in other fields.
> Is the system robust enough without having being tested? Well possible; boosters with the size have been tested in Iran. Key open hurdle is re-entry and thermal technology barriers. But Irans and NKs understanding of BMs and simulation capabilities seems to be so advanced, that systems are robust enough when finished to work on correctly the first flight.
> 
> When I looked at photos from the DF-31 in the early 2000's I wondered when Iran can reach something similar. If this systems turns out to be the alleged light ICBM completed by Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams team (heavy solid ICBM/SLV project ended in the sabotage disaster?), then it is even better than the DF-31...



Just as advancements in U.S. missile program never stop for a second after Von Braun's passing, the murder of Tehrani Mogdam as tragic as it was turned out to be nothing more than a hiccup in the overall history of Iran's missile program.

In under a decade since his passing Iran's precision guided Fatteh-110 class went from 450km (In test phase) to ~1000km with the Dezful (now capable of hitting Israeli targets) with vast improvements made to not only range but targeting, guidance, warheads, launch platforms, Airframe composites, flight control,.... And the improvements in that particular program have been like clockwork and if anything came back with vengeance so much so that more likely than not by 2021 in only a decade after his passing Iran will likely turn the original 250km Fateh class into a missile capable of reaching all Israeli targets with a CEP of under 20meters with a relatively low cost 1.5 stage BM that can be mass produced and mass deployed using relatively low cost mobile launchers. 

As for ICBM's both in terms of liquid and solid fuel the main impediment for Iran in that regard is Iran's leaderships decision making and the so far self imposed restrictions on ICBM's not technology. According to Hajizadeh the 1st thing he did when he became the head of the IRGC aerospace forces was to put forth a plan for a rather large ICBM that was rejected by the supreme leaders & they were instead ordered to shift their focus on towards accuracy... 

And simply put building ICBM's capable of reaching U.S. soil would be rather useless without building a large enough nuclear deterrence capability that would allow you to retaliate against U.S. soil conventionally without fear of a nuclear response due to a sufficient sized nuclear stockpile. 
That said, Iran most defiantly needs to build wider diameter BM capable of carrying larger number of MIRV and decoy's where ~100 launches would have the accuracy to be sufficient enough to disable the Air Force of any regional power or areal threat as far as 2500km away and US could call that an ICBM all it wants but for practical use that's what they should be designed to be used for.... So even if with silo's and all the cost comes out to $20 Million USD per missile/launch if you can simply take out 8 sperate bunkered targets with each launch within the first few hours of a conflict the costs would still be well worth it.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> There is meanwhile a good likelihood that this system shown at the 2017 parade in North Korea is connected to Iran.
> Back then, North Koreans showed their lightweight liquid ICBMs and heavy weight ones. This one would be a untested solid fuel light ICBM.
> 
> Now what is the Iran link?
> Well, it was a bold parade that showed 3 parallel strategic programs:
> - Liquid lightweight (demonstrated)
> - Liquid heavyweight (demonstrated)
> - Solid lightweight (not demonstrated)
> 
> This sudden appearance of a heavyweight and solid lightweight added to the existing liquid lightweight they were certainly working on, looked amazing but not really credible.
> So it might well be that this third solid lightweight was either a early demonstrator, a fake mock-up modeled on DF-31 or a mock-up of an Iranian system (planned to?) transferred to them. Bear in mind that any presented system must look credible enough for enemy experts to believe it.
> 
> North Korean missile school favors all-terrain and tracked vehicles for their missiles. When the showed a "Nodong" variant similar to the Ghadr around the late 2000's, it looked like a technology transfer from Iran but the didn't use the road-grade truck of Iranian Ghadr but a MAZ TEL variant.
> Hence it looks suspicious: Their Nodong MAZ TELs were available for that Ghadr related Nodong variant but creating a credible looking MAZ based TEL for the new missile would be a difficult task.
> Admitted: Their all-terrain TEL capabilities/numbers might not have been sufficient in 2017 to created MAZ variant trucks for the new missile and hence they were forced to use a road-truck TEL.
> 
> Next point: It is true that the core of Irans solid fuel missile team was martyred together with Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam, but the capabilities have been regained to some extend.
> (according to ***** TV series it was sabotage via Mossad/MEK, intended leak?)
> We know that Iran tests ICBM-size boosters via Armscontrolwonk while we don't know about North Korea doing something like that.
> Both NK and Iran (Zolfaghar BM) have displayed capability of filament composite casings. Iran probably even carbon fiber based filament technology. Hence the <2m diameter and <18m length of this lightweight ICBM could be weithin miniaturization capabilities of both countries. Original DF-31 ICBM which is larger is very similar in TEL layout but should be a cruder high strength steel based design which requires ~30% larger size.
> 2008 vintage Sejil design also still used high strength steel based casing technology. The new missile would then represent a filament casing Sejil with diameter improved from 1,3m to 1,9m while keeping the 17-18m lenght, plus better TVC technology. Via those changes the range would improve from 2000km to 12000km.
> 
> Sounds much? Well the Dezul has *10-20% total larger dimensions* than the Fathe-110 but improved the range from originally 250km 4-fold to 1000km. Now scale this to the Sejil and the new missile: *50% larger diameter* than the Sejil, then a 6-fold range increase instead of 4-fold from Fateh to Dezful would be well feasible.
> 
> NK showed Aramid/Kevlar based filament technology but Iran looks to have carbon fiber based filament technology. NK has demonstrated solid-fuel-grade TVC vane technology compact and fast-acting enough for a container launched missile without fins, Iran not yet.
> 
> The new missile is a very compact ICBM around the same size as Irans Ghadr, Sejil and Shahab-3 TELs. It's warhead might weight just 600-800kg, sufficient for an advanced nuclear warhead but it would only make sense for a <50m CEP conventional warhead.
> Iran has not demonstrated a cold launched container based missile, while NK has. Container launch increases cost and is not a must for a climate like Irans. Plus carbon fiber filament casings are also expensive.
> So a important question is what economical sense such a single warhead ICBM would make if it does not use nuclear warheads primarily.
> So this is the next point: Iran has demonstrated necessary accurate long range accuracy by the Khorramshahr-2 testing video. Can it be scaled to ICBM range or would the INS drift so much that no CEP of <50m is possible @ 12000km? Can terminal course corrections be performed at the incredible high thermal and aerodynamic stress of a ICBM range re-entry?
> Huge technological hurdles but if it is possible for Iran, then a conventional lightweight, single warhead ICBM would make sense for Iran against very high value targets. Otherwise a heavy liquid ICBM with MRV, MIRV would be a significantly more cost effective approach.
> With a CEP of >200m for a very good, high-speed terminally unguided warhead, a 600-800kg conventional warhead would probably already make no economic sense anymore.
> 
> So is the missile at the North Korean parade actually the fruit of Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam and his teams efforts used by NK to display a higher capability than it has?
> I think there is a good chance for it.
> Has Iran just gave a credible mock-up or transferred the technology to them? Well possible that the whole technology was transferred for their help in other fields.
> Is the system robust enough without having being tested? Well possible; boosters with the size have been tested in Iran. Key open hurdle is re-entry and thermal technology barriers. But Irans and NKs understanding of BMs and simulation capabilities seems to be so advanced, that systems are robust enough when finished to work on correctly the first flight.
> 
> When I looked at photos from the DF-31 in the early 2000's I wondered when Iran can reach something similar. If this systems turns out to be the alleged light ICBM completed by Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams team (heavy solid ICBM/SLV project ended in the sabotage disaster?), then it is even better than the DF-31...




so you say a solid fuel Khoramshahr missile would have 12000 KM range? is it possible to turn Khoramshahr to a solid fuel missile?

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## Ich

skyshadow said:


> so you say a solid fuel Khoramshahr missile would have 12000 KM range? is it possible to turn Khoramshahr to a solid fuel missile?



Me think solid fuel is not solid fuel is not solid fuel. Also for each different solid fuel one have to invent special arangements inside the missile bodys to perfect the burning. So solid fuel does not automatically mean range beyond 10000 km.

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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> Just as advancements in U.S. missile program never stop for a second after Von Braun's passing, the murder of Tehrani Mogdam as tragic as it was turned out to be nothing more than a hiccup in the overall history of Iran's missile program.
> 
> In under a decade since his passing Iran's precision guided Fatteh-110 class went from 450km (In test phase) to ~1000km with the Dezful (now capable of hitting Israeli targets) with vast improvements made to not only range but targeting, guidance, warheads, launch platforms, Airframe composites, flight control,.... And the improvements in that particular program have been like clockwork and if anything came back with vengeance so much so that more likely than not by 2021 in only a decade after his passing Iran will likely turn the original 250km Fateh class into a missile capable of reaching all Israeli targets with a CEP of under 20meters with a relatively low cost 1.5 stage BM that can be mass produced and mass deployed using relatively low cost mobile launchers.
> 
> As for ICBM's both in terms of liquid and solid fuel the main impediment for Iran in that regard is Iran's leaderships decision making and the so far self imposed restrictions on ICBM's not technology. According to Hajizadeh the 1st thing he did when he became the head of the IRGC aerospace forces was to put forth a plan for a rather large ICBM that was rejected by the supreme leaders & they were instead ordered to shift their focus on towards accuracy...
> 
> And simply put building ICBM's capable of reaching U.S. soil would be rather useless without building a large enough nuclear deterrence capability that would allow you to retaliate against U.S. soil conventionally without fear of a nuclear response due to a sufficient sized nuclear stockpile.
> That said, Iran most defiantly needs to build wider diameter BM capable of carrying larger number of MIRV and decoy's where ~100 launches would have the accuracy to be sufficient enough to disable the Air Force of any regional power or areal threat as far as 2500km away and US could call that an ICBM all it wants but for practical use that's what they should be designed to be used for.... So even if with silo's and all the cost comes out to $20 Million USD per missile/launch if you can simply take out 8 sperate bunkered targets with each launch within the first few hours of a conflict the costs would still be well worth it.



Officially Iran should go the path you described there: A single stage MIRVed variant of that ICBM or a >2m diameter variant. That can be credibly sold as 2500km limited missile to the public world.
However I think there is a good likelihood that what was presented as North Korean missile there is in fact a Iranian one. Iran worked on and tested solid fuel boosters intensively while NKs testing program was very limited. Traditionally North Koreans are good at liquid fuel missile motors, while Iranians have the Fateh-Sejil history.
I hence believe that this is very likely Irans solid light ICBM we see there. The system completed before Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams team moved to the Qaem-SLV/heavy ICBM program.
That system would be kept secret and only used with the potential Soviet origin nuclear warhead arsenal Iran likely has.
The conventional variant of it would require key technological barriers to be broken, primary in the field of re-entry of a MaRV. That's the part I doubt Iran has achieved. 
If it is achieved and the political climate suitable, Iran could present such a light conventional ICBM in open public. Remember that Iran is a non-nuclear weapon state under safeguard inspections, it may credibly use conventional ICBMs against the U.S without a nuclear retaliation.



skyshadow said:


> so you say a solid fuel Khoramshahr missile would have 12000 KM range? is it possible to turn Khoramshahr to a solid fuel missile?



No. Khorramshahr is a single stage liquid fuel missile with 30% overall smaller dimensions. Liquid fuel missiles can't be redesigned into solid fuel once as they are fundamentally different. But the MaRV and guidance system of the Khorramshahr-2 is a good starting point for improving it the ICBM-level reentry speeds.
Just to make it clear: This is science fiction for now, no MaRV equipped ICBM has been seen till today. Only the Yars and last Topol variant are claimed to be MaRV equipped (quite certain for the Yars) and the Avantgard HGV as nextgen post-MaRV technology. Chinese have not yet reached it and France also not... Only Russians... MaRV at ICBM speeds are extremely difficult to master and normally only for ABM system countering, as pin-point accuracy (<=50m CEP) is no concern with nuclear warhead equipped missiles (200m sufficient).

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## TheImmortal

If you look at the amount of Iranian Missile scientists that have died since the 80’s testing and building, I would venture to say the number exceeds 50 maybe 100.

Tehrani Moghadam was at the base in his office and was not there for any purpose. Just wrong place and wrong time.

Even in this day and age, scientists around the world die in US/Russia/China when working with volatile fuels and system.

Transporting solid fuel is extremely dangerous and one has to be careful of static discharge.

You can tell now by looking at the videos of underground missile cities the care that is taken to transport such missiles and store them.

Unfortunately it is quite likely that ineptitude and lack of safety caused the detonation of Missile during transportation. Being so close to other missiles caused secondary explosion.

It’s more propaganda and face saving to say sabotage then admit to ineptitude.

Nonetheless, the deaths did set Iran’s program back much more than 2-3 years possible up to 5 years or more. I think most of the worked moved to Sharud.

It’s clear after his death, the focus changed from longer range to increasing accuracy of existing arsenal types.

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## Oldman1

VEVAK said:


> I mentioned the GBU-28 because it's a 5000lb bomb an F-15 can carry and it's capable of penetrating over 100ft! Also without knowing how the tunnels are structured and where the missiles are stored or if the tunnels are re enforced with concrete or not it really doesn't matter how deep you can penetrate! Which is why U.S. wants access to all Iranian Military bases and it's also why Iran will never give it to them!
> 
> U.S. makes public most of it's ordnances and they most times they overplay their capabilities to create a fear factor you can simply do a search on wiki and yes U.S. also has weapons that they don't make public too
> BUT to hit and destroy Iranian Missile Bases much like Iran's Fordow facility the U.S. will need to use weapons like the
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Ordnance_Penetrator or the larger MOAB
> And these are weapons that weighs as much as an F-16 so you would need a bomber to get inside a highly protected Airspace and Iran would shoot it down just as easily as we shot down the RQ-4 (Or MQ-4) that was flying at over 50,000 feet!!!!
> 
> View attachment 566232
> 
> View attachment 566233
> 
> View attachment 566234
> 
> 
> U.S. stealth tech used in the trident that was shot down by Iran using an Iranian BUILT SAM system flying at over 50,000ft! So yea that wasn't just any aircraft or just any RQ-4



You wouldn't be able to shoot it down because your air defense systems would be destroyed by then AND the MOAB are carried by stealth bombers.



sha ah said:


> I don't know if they would launch 100, but maybe 20-30, even if half hit it's good enough. Iran will probably launch missiles with larger warheads at vital installations.
> 
> 
> 
> Iraq never had the weapons & preparation that Iran has. Iran has well over 100,000 missiles, some say more than 200,000. Most of Iran's missile launchers & air defense batteries are highly mobile which makes them extremely difficult to target. Look at Saudi Arabia, with the 3rd largest military budget on earth, more than Russia. Saudi's have help from the USA, with US jets & satellite intelligence, yet they can't stop the rag tag Houthi rebels from Yemen, the poorest Arab country on earth, from constantly targeting their pipelines & airports with old modified scuds & plastic drones.
> 
> Another thing you have to understand is that most of Iran's mobile assets are hidden deep underground in secret fortified bunker. Iran has hundreds of such bunkers and networks of tunnels spread throughout the country. Some are underneath mountain ranges. The problem is that the US doesn't know where most of them are. You're comparing little concrete aircraft shelters in Syria to bases which are half a km or more underground, protected by layers of military grade concrete & underneath mountain ranges ?
> 
> Iran has 5000 air defense sites. For the US to attack Iran, the US would require a hell of alot more assets & personnel in the region than what it has now. That buildup would takes months but as soon as Iran became aware of their intention, Iran would act & strike first. All Iran needs to do is destroy Saudi Arabia's oil facilities. It would cause the price of oil to quadruple or even more overnight. The economy in the US would shut down. Millions unemployed, riots, etc & countless companies that are in debt or on the edge would go bankrupt, exacerbating problems. Aside from the US, the entire global economy would experience a serious meltdown that would take decades to recover from.
> 
> Attacking Iran is not an easy task & no cake walk. Talk is one things, bluffs about fire & fury are another, but going to war with Iran would be a disaster for the US, not worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Iran has hundreds of underground missile bases & their networks of tunnels run underneath the entire nation. The people who work in these bases are hand picked & I doubt if the US knows where they all are. Even if they know where some of them are, I doubt if a bunker buster will go through an entire mountain & then cut through half a km of military grade, layered concrete that is specially designed to resist bombs. The MOP bunker buster, for example, can only penetrate 60 feet of concrete & that's not even the kind of concrete Iran has & Iran layers it's concrete to make it more effective.
> 
> Another issue is that Iran has 5000+ air defense sites & for the US to launch an attack on Iran, they would need a hell of alot more assets & personnel than what they have in the region now. That buildup would be obvious & as soonas Iran became aware, it would launch a pre-emptive strike. All Iran has to do is target Saudi Arabia's oil facilities. Once the price of oil quadruples, it will lead to a global financial meltdown. It's just not worth it from a financial standpoint for the US to wage a war against Iran. It's not feasible.



Targeting Saudi Arabia would make things worse for you because you be pushing many countries in the ME against Iran, especially the world as well including Russia and China that would have their economies collapsed. 5000 air defenses or so is nothing. The U.S. was prepared to take on the Soviet Union at its prime that had more! And you doubt about the effectiveness of the bunker busters, but you know the U.S. always testing and studying how to penetrate bunkers.


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## PeeD

Iran is creating a new and unique missile launch concept. It is much more survivable than its previous concept while more cost effective than its super-hardened cavern silo launch system already unveiled (the highest performance launch concept of Iran and known to mankind).
Innovative and effective approach but I won't be the first one to reveal it in open source.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> Iran is creating a new and unique missile launch concept. It is much more survivable than its previous concept while more cost effective than its super-hardened cavern silo launch system already unveiled (the highest performance launch concept of Iran and known to mankind).
> Innovative and effective approach but I won't be the first one to reveal it in open source.



Can you explain more? in other word dude what are you talking about

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## skyshadow

did you guys knew that Iran can hit US main land from Venezuela? and that was almost 10 years ago

*Iranian missiles in Venezuela*

*http://infodio.com/content/iranian-missiles-venezuela*

بر اساس توافق دو طرف، ایران یک پایگاه موشکی در خاک ونزوئلا راه‌اندازی می‌کند

http://www.irdiplomacy.ir/fa/news/12887/وقتی-ایران-و-ونزوئلا-خواب-را-بر-امریکا-حرام-می-کنند


*ساخت پايگاه موشکي محرمانه سپاه در ونزوئلا*

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/45899/%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%AE%D8%AA%D9%BE%D8%A7%D9%8A%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%87-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B4%DA%A9%D9%8A-%D9%85%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87-%D8%B3%D9%BE%D8%A7%D9%87-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D9%88%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%88%D8%A6%D9%84%D8%A7



*پایگاه موشکی محرمانه ایران در خاک ونزوئلا*


https://www.dw.com/fa-ir/پایگاه-موشکی-محرمانه-ایران-در-خاک-ونزوئلا/a-15069154-0

*Is This The Venezuelan Missile Base Being Built With Iranian Oil Profits?*

*https://www.businessinsider.com/iran-is-building-rocket-bases-in-venezuala-2012-1*

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## Mithridates

skyshadow said:


> did you guys knew that Iran can hit US main land from Venezuela? and that was almost 10 years ago
> 
> *Iranian missiles in Venezuela*
> 
> *http://infodio.com/content/iranian-missiles-venezuela*
> 
> بر اساس توافق دو طرف، ایران یک پایگاه موشکی در خاک ونزوئلا راه‌اندازی می‌کند
> 
> http://www.irdiplomacy.ir/fa/news/12887/وقتی-ایران-و-ونزوئلا-خواب-را-بر-امریکا-حرام-می-کنند
> 
> 
> *ساخت پايگاه موشکي محرمانه سپاه در ونزوئلا*
> 
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/45899/%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%AE%D8%AA%D9%BE%D8%A7%D9%8A%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%87-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B4%DA%A9%D9%8A-%D9%85%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87-%D8%B3%D9%BE%D8%A7%D9%87-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D9%88%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%88%D8%A6%D9%84%D8%A7
> 
> 
> 
> *پایگاه موشکی محرمانه ایران در خاک ونزوئلا*
> 
> 
> https://www.dw.com/fa-ir/پایگاه-موشکی-محرمانه-ایران-در-خاک-ونزوئلا/a-15069154-0
> 
> *Is This The Venezuelan Missile Base Being Built With Iranian Oil Profits?*
> 
> *https://www.businessinsider.com/iran-is-building-rocket-bases-in-venezuala-2012-1*


i have read about it years ago, but for a robust power projection to US southern states we should deploy more drones, ships, helicopters and special forces. only missile is not enough.

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## TheImmortal

Mithridates said:


> i have read about it years ago, but for a robust power projection to US southern states we should deploy more drones, ships, helicopters and special forces. only missile is not enough.



Are you out of your mind. Any force attempting “power projection” onto the southern US would be destroyed in a blink of an eye.

US mainland is not a country you try to “power project” against. It is quite literally impossible to invade a single state and survive.

This article is propaganda. Iran does not have missiles aimed at US mainland, that is major red line for US. When Soviet Union attempted to do that with Cuba, US was prepared for nuclear war if they didn’t remove them.

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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> Are you out of your mind. Any force attempting “power projection” onto the southern US would be destroyed in a blink of an eye.
> 
> US mainland is not a country you try to “power project” against. It is quite literally impossible to invade a single state and survive.
> 
> This article is propaganda. Iran does not have missiles aimed at US mainland, that is major red line for US. When Soviet Union attempted to do that with Cuba, US was prepared for nuclear war if they didn’t remove them.


fair enough, we should grow bigger than today to do that mission.

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## PeeD

Funnily enough key to striking mainland U.S for the next 50+ years is a fast boostphase ICBM deep inside central Iran.



skyshadow said:


> Can you explain more? in other word dude what are you talking about



They certainly know it already but I still won't make myself a tool for enemy intelligence. I just give certain but blurry general info for the morale of hammihanan.

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## Ich

Cold launch, hot launch, what else is out there?


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## Mithridates

Ich said:


> Cold launch, hot launch, what else is out there?


warm launch?? milky launch with sugar and dark launch.

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## Ich

Mithridates said:


> warm launch?? milky launch with sugar and dark launch.



Maybe the sugar daddy launch. But for real: What type of launch mechnism could it be?

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## Mithridates

Ich said:


> Maybe the sugar daddy launch. But for real: What type of launch mechnism could it be?


that could be too.
i don't know much about the missiles launched but i assume the most forces applies to the structure of missile when it tries to detach from ground, it should has something with that.


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## TheImmortal

He is not talking about launch type. As a solid fuel only needs about 15-30 mins to launch.

I think he may be alluding to survivability maybe Iran has developed a way to launch BMs without large and expensive TELs.

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## Draco.IMF

PeeD said:


> Iran is creating a new and unique missile launch concept. It is much more survivable than its previous concept while more cost effective than its super-hardened cavern silo launch system already unveiled (the highest performance launch concept of Iran and known to mankind).
> Innovative and effective approach but I won't be the first one to reveal it in open source.



something like this?.....


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## PeeD

It is well visible, otherwise I wouldn't know about it (open source) --> it is visible because its a large, hardened (nuclear overpressure) structure.

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153072141463691271

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## mohsen

Bad news for Zionists (and they were first to pick the news too), Hamas now in possession of pin-point accurate missiles:
Khamenei: Palestinians have ‘precision missiles’ | The Times of Israel

LOL, and Zionists wanted to stop Iranian missiles in other countries!

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## PeeD

PeeD said:


> There is meanwhile a good likelihood that this system shown at the 2017 parade in North Korea is connected to Iran.
> Back then, North Koreans showed their lightweight liquid ICBMs and heavy weight ones. This one would be a untested solid fuel light ICBM.
> 
> Now what is the Iran link?
> Well, it was a bold parade that showed 3 parallel strategic programs:
> - Liquid lightweight (demonstrated)
> - Liquid heavyweight (demonstrated)
> - Solid lightweight (not demonstrated)
> 
> This sudden appearance of a heavyweight and solid lightweight added to the existing liquid lightweight they were certainly working on, looked amazing but not really credible.
> So it might well be that this third solid lightweight was either a early demonstrator, a fake mock-up modeled on DF-31 or a mock-up of an Iranian system (planned to?) transferred to them. Bear in mind that any presented system must look credible enough for enemy experts to believe it.
> 
> North Korean missile school favors all-terrain and tracked vehicles for their missiles. When the showed a "Nodong" variant similar to the Ghadr around the late 2000's, it looked like a technology transfer from Iran but the didn't use the road-grade truck of Iranian Ghadr but a MAZ TEL variant.
> Hence it looks suspicious: Their Nodong MAZ TELs were available for that Ghadr related Nodong variant but creating a credible looking MAZ based TEL for the new missile would be a difficult task.
> Admitted: Their all-terrain TEL capabilities/numbers might not have been sufficient in 2017 to created MAZ variant trucks for the new missile and hence they were forced to use a road-truck TEL.
> 
> Next point: It is true that the core of Irans solid fuel missile team was martyred together with Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam, but the capabilities have been regained to some extend.
> (according to Gand.o TV series it was sabotage via Mossad/MEK, intended leak?)
> We know that Iran tests ICBM-size boosters via Armscontrolwonk while we don't know about North Korea doing something like that.
> Both NK and Iran (Zolfaghar BM) have displayed capability of filament composite casings. Iran probably even carbon fiber based filament technology. Hence the <2m diameter and <18m length of this lightweight ICBM could be weithin miniaturization capabilities of both countries. Original DF-31 ICBM which is larger is very similar in TEL layout but should be a cruder high strength steel based design which requires ~30% larger size.
> 2008 vintage Sejil design also still used high strength steel based casing technology. The new missile would then represent a filament casing Sejil with diameter improved from 1,3m to 1,9m while keeping the 17-18m lenght, plus better TVC technology. Via those changes the range would improve from 2000km to 12000km.
> 
> Sounds much? Well the Dezul has *10-20% total larger dimensions* than the Fathe-110 but improved the range from originally 250km 4-fold to 1000km. Now scale this to the Sejil and the new missile: *50% larger diameter* than the Sejil, then a 6-fold range increase instead of 4-fold from Fateh to Dezful would be well feasible.
> 
> NK showed Aramid/Kevlar based filament technology but Iran looks to have carbon fiber based filament technology. NK has demonstrated solid-fuel-grade TVC vane technology compact and fast-acting enough for a container launched missile without fins, Iran not yet.
> 
> The new missile is a very compact ICBM around the same size as Irans Ghadr, Sejil and Shahab-3 TELs. It's warhead might weight just 600-800kg, sufficient for an advanced nuclear warhead but it would only make sense for a <50m CEP conventional warhead.
> Iran has not demonstrated a cold launched container based missile, while NK has. Container launch increases cost and is not a must for a climate like Irans. Plus carbon fiber filament casings are also expensive.
> So a important question is what economical sense such a single warhead ICBM would make if it does not use nuclear warheads primarily.
> So this is the next point: Iran has demonstrated necessary accurate long range accuracy by the Khorramshahr-2 testing video. Can it be scaled to ICBM range or would the INS drift so much that no CEP of <50m is possible @ 12000km? Can terminal course corrections be performed at the incredible high thermal and aerodynamic stress of a ICBM range re-entry?
> Huge technological hurdles but if it is possible for Iran, then a conventional lightweight, single warhead ICBM would make sense for Iran against very high value targets. Otherwise a heavy liquid ICBM with MRV, MIRV would be a significantly more cost effective approach.
> With a CEP of >200m for a very good, high-speed terminally unguided warhead, a 600-800kg conventional warhead would probably already make no economic sense anymore.
> 
> So is the missile at the North Korean parade actually the fruit of Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam and his teams efforts used by NK to display a higher capability than it has?
> I think there is a good chance for it.
> Has Iran just gave a credible mock-up or transferred the technology to them? Well possible that the whole technology was transferred for their help in other fields.
> Is the system robust enough without having being tested? Well possible; boosters with the size have been tested in Iran. Key open hurdle is re-entry and thermal technology barriers. But Irans and NKs understanding of BMs and simulation capabilities seems to be so advanced, that systems are robust enough when finished to work on correctly the first flight.
> 
> When I looked at photos from the DF-31 in the early 2000's I wondered when Iran can reach something similar. If this systems turns out to be the alleged light ICBM completed by Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams team (heavy solid ICBM/SLV project ended in the sabotage disaster?), then it is even better than the DF-31...



*Part II:*

Yesterday "civilian" Israeli open source twitter published this about the testings at Shahrud:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153698442235011072
So Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams program has entered a new phase of intensive testing recently.

What is being tested? According to the Armscontrolwonk crew a ~90t booster which is e.g about what is estimated for the Russian intercontinental range Bulava SLBM.
That booster was already tested years ago (3-5) but the intensity and numbers of tests increased very much in the last months. New boosters with higher thrust are now also tested.

So let me now connect this to by above earlier post: Irans light ICBM program which my has surfaced in North Korea, Irans main strategic technology partner.
The reason for Iran to give a difficultly developed ICBM may be simple: North Korea took the burden and did nuclear testings up to a hydrogen bomb. If data is shared with Iran as one could expect, then Irans ICBM technology in return makes sense.
So in the last post I explained why that system looks Iranian.
Now I want to show some results of scaling calculations from all released open source material.

First point: Would a conventional ICBM be feasible?
Key to that is miniaturization and materials on one side and level of precision striking on the other hand.
What do we know about Irans capabilities in this fields?

Materials: The turning point was the presentation of the Fateh-313, later the Zolfaghar up to the Dezful.
to make it short: These systems use composite booster casings.
The lowest performing material in this class is fiberglass from which the Russian Yars ICBM is made.
The highest performing material is carbon/graphite epoxy and while we don't know what earlier missiles used, a few months ago Iran presented the Dezful which has a characteristic black nozzle.
People at ACW confirm this: Already the Zolfaghar casing looked like a carnon/graphite casing instead of firberglass or Aramid.
So one key technology for lightweight miniaturization is already in Iran. At this point even best Russian systems such as the Bulava and certainly Yars/Topol as well as North Korean solids use aramid/fiberglass primarily.
What is the goal of all of this? Create a cost effective two-stage ICBM where other countries are forced to create more complex 3-stage systems.
Even more: Enable to reach necessary intercontinental ranges of 11.000km (U.S eastcoast) by just developing a new variant of the Sejil two-stage solid fuel MRBM.

At this point I need to open a case:
Fateh generation 1 missiles had a steel casing and 200km range.
Dezful ("Fateh" generation 7) has apparently a carbon/graphite casing and a range of 1000km.

Sejil generation 1 missiles had a steel casing and 2000km range.
Light ICBM cold hence achieve... calculation shows: exactly 10.000km assuming the same proportional technological improvement as Fateh-G1 to Dezful.

Now things are not as easy: Iran has two constrains: It wants a system not larger in length than the existing Sejil and Ghadr/Shahab-3 series of TELs. This lowers probability of detection ---> no 10x10 heavy off-road TEL as option (no forests to mask them). Size wise it hence must be also be able to the carried by those kind of trucks which dictates max. weight and diameter.
This is the reason why I believe the North Korean system to be the Iranian one actually: That TEL system has the same overall size as the Sejil.

My scaling calculations show that the weight would be less than two Sejils but more than the Bulava: ~40 tons. This is a good fit for the tested 90t boosters at Shahroud.
The larger diameter estimated to be 1,8m would then allow an heavier warhead then the Sejil, about twice as heavy or 2-3 Separate warheads.






This is a North Korean intended leak of such a two stage solid fuel ICBM.

At this point I need to give a reminder: North Korea had great achievements with their Pukguksong series of solid fuel missiles without the visible decade long testing work Iran did on its boosters. The made a big jump ahead of Irans current Sejil: They demonstrated cold launch which increases survivability of the TEL, a more compact TVC, and retractable fins.
However "their" casing technology is not carbon/graphite based not have they key technologies such as a boost termination system which the Sejil has. The helped Iran with its liquids and are masters in that field but their solid fuel technology seems to have been transferred by Iran to them.

The result of what is visible and what Iran has demonstrated in other systems creates one, amazing possebility: A two stage solid ICBM, as long as the Sejil, not reaching even twice its weight and a twice higher throw weight.
An ICBM that could probably be produced at 2-3 times the price of the Sejil, 15-20 times less then equivalent western nuclear ICBMs.
Here it can't be stressed enough what huge and elegant achievement the Dezul represents for Iran. Being able to strike Israel from Iran with a miniature, single stage 4,5t missile is an absolute nightmare for Israel: It requires a state of the art technology level to create a system with such a high performance: Key was the carbon-graphite technology.

So what other key technology is needed?
What was mentioned is sufficient for a nuclear light ICBM. However without a MaRV, it is not possible to achieve an accuracy below ~130m CEP: That is sufficient against soft targets when a ~1000kg warhead is used, more so with an air burst. This might be the intermediate step and deemed sufficient but the key are MaRVs. MaRVs would enable 10-30m accuracy levels and the throw weight could be split to 2-3 MaRVs each having 500kg warheads.

As said in the previous post, this is just fantasy at this point: No country in the world has achieved something like that: MaRV at intercontinental ranges have been tested as prototypes but simply too hard to master. Only confirmed system is the Russian Avangard which is even a step beyond classical MaRV. Technological difficulty is one point, price of such MaRVs another.

So where is Iran here? Iran has demonstrated high accuracy levels with its MaRV'ed Khorramshahr-2 MRBM.
The accuracy was so high that only 4 known guidance methods could have achieved it:
- Ground Radio corrected trajectory: Not robust enough in wartime
- GPS guidance: Not robust enough in wartime
- INS: Not known to be able to achieve such high accuracy levels. Drifts the longer the range gets.
- Astro-Navigation: Iran has not demonstrated a astro-nav system with such a high accuracy level, but U.S and Russians have.

From all those systems only an astro-nav system would be cost effective, robust and accurate enough. The MaRV would then use cost effective G-hardned accelerometers to compensate the atmospheric errors (needed to achieve <130m accuracy).
One thing must be realized here: U.S Pershing II of the 80's used a MaRV which required terminal guidance to achieve a accuracy like that shown in the Khorramshahr-2 test. Achieving the displayed accuracy without terminal guidance is very significant for one goal: MaRV for IRBM to ICBM level ranges (speeds), where terminal radar or optical guidance would be impossible due to the thermal effects of high speed re-entry.
So Iran has demonstrated MaRV technology that probably would work to a range beyond the stated 2000km, estimated 4000km would be possible with nose modifications. However beyond that, up to 11.000km, that MaRV would have to be completely redesigned and new technologies achieved.

Beside all this, there is another key problem that needs a technological solution:
- Either a very precise thrust termination system if a single heavy RV, without MaRV is used: Demonstrated basically with the Sejil.
- A crude, high altitude MaRV without a thrust termination system for trajectory correction.
- A Saman like bus system for multiple unguided RVs in a evolved anti-ABM system.
The Saman bus system is again a great achievement if successfully tested: It is a storeable, non-liquid bus system, something Russians are said to have integrated into their Bulava SLBM, creating a "all-solid" MIRV missile.
With the Saman bus, the "footprint" can be increased: distance of targets attacked by the individual RVs. That is why a Saman like bus would also make sense for a 2-3 MaRV payload of the light ICBM.
Most cost efficient approach would probably be to have point-point strike via 2-3 MaRVs which not need a bus system and correct their trajectory on their own (lower footprint and less anti-ABM capabilities).

Conclusion:
A conventional global-precision-strike weapon is not feasible for official nuclear powers but possible for Iran.
A solid fuel two stage ICBM requires primary the carbon/graphite technology displayed by Iran.
Conventional warheads requires guidance systems accuracy displayed by Iran.
Pin-point-strike requires, MaRV technology displayed at a lower-grade level by Iran.
Jump from two-stage Sejil to two-stage ICBM demonstrated by Iran in terms of technology via the improvement from Fateh G1 to Dezful.

PS: A good time to open this topic, now that Iran wants to pressure the west on Barjam.

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## VEVAK

Oldman1 said:


> You wouldn't be able to shoot it down because your air defense systems would be destroyed by then AND the MOAB are carried by stealth bombers.
> 
> 
> 
> Targeting Saudi Arabia would make things worse for you because you be pushing many countries in the ME against Iran, especially the world as well including Russia and China that would have their economies collapsed. 5000 air defenses or so is nothing. The U.S. was prepared to take on the Soviet Union at its prime that had more! And you doubt about the effectiveness of the bunker busters, but you know the U.S. always testing and studying how to penetrate bunkers.



Right because a large fleet of U.S. aircrafts and tomahawks are going to penetrate Iran's Air Defense and take out all the air defenses of a country larger than U.K., France, Germany & Italy combined while simultaneously hitting all 40 or so Iranian missiles bases with bombs as heavy as an F-16! LOL! Sure you are!  Delusional much? 

And that still doesn't address all of Iran's other capabilities like

1. Iran's Naval capabilities & yes U.S. can no doubt take out over 85% of Iran's blue water capabilities in a matter of hours but that hardly addresses Iran's naval capabilities within ~500km of it's shores from a vast stock of costal batteries, missile boats, FAC, Subs,.... And the biggest threat to them doesn't come from U.S. ships but from U.S. Air Power. Which would require a rather large amount of U.S. Aircrafts to stay back to try to deal with them at the start of any conflict. And even if you manage to take them out you'd still have to deal with 1000's of speed boats that will be sent to mine the Persian Gulf! 

2.Iran's vast UCAV capabilities that don't require large runways & can be armed with weapons like Iran's akhgar missile that can be Air launched from 25km out at a relatively low altitude (Rendering SHORAD systems useless against the UCAV's, which would required a good number of U.S. Fighters to remain back for defense and interception.) Because although they may not have large warheads, their payload is more than sufficient to take out radars, SAM, un-bunkered aircrafts,.... 

3.Even if the U.S. was to hit all ~40 or so large Missile bases simultaneously which is doubtful that still wouldn't address smaller more hidden bases & bunkers equipped with LACM & Fateh class (250km-1000km range) spread in smaller numbers across a country as large as Iran.

4.U.S. would also have to engage and carryout attacks against Iran's Air Force because even though the fleet is equipped with outdated old platforms they are still armed with PGM's and Air Launched Cruise Missiles which the US can't risk to ignore.

5.U.S would also have to deal with Iranian special forces and pro Iranian forces that are already deployed within 50km of a vast number of U.S. bases across the region.

Also it's important to note that the U.S. has NEVER been in a direct conflict with a country that has even come close to having Iran's missile capabilities whether in stock or accuracy let alone both Or Iran's UCAV capabilities OR AIDS capabilities Or Anti ship missile capabilities or ISW capabilities or ECM capabilities or Cyberwarfare capabilities and since WW2 U.S. has not gone to war with a singe country with Iran's Naval capabilities or against a country capable of producing over 95% of it's own yearly weapons acquisition. 


So your assumption about the U.S. ability to take out Iran with conventional weapons is nothing but a delusion!
And yes the U.S. can no doubt fire ICBM's and nuke every City in Iran in a single day and bring Iran to it's knees but short of vast use of nukes the U.S. conventional capabilities that would result in a definite victory over Iran simply does not exist!
Look at Yamen, the Saudi's are spending more money on their military than Russia! And they are buying mostly American weapons and after how many years and involving how many other countries they can't so much as stop Missiles from being fired at them from one of the financially poorest countries of the region in a country the fraction the size of Iran & not even a fraction of Iran's military, financial, technological, industrial,..... capabilities.

So wake the hell up! This delusion you've been living under is ONLY that "a DELUSION" and nothing more!

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> *Part II:*
> 
> Yesterday "civilian" Israeli open source twitter published this about the testings at Shahrud:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153698442235011072
> So Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams program has entered a new phase of intensive testing recently.
> 
> What is being tested? According to the Armscontrolwonk crew a ~90t booster which is e.g about what is estimated for the Russian intercontinental range Bulava SLBM.
> That booster was already tested years ago (3-5) but the intensity and numbers of tests increased very much in the last months. New boosters with higher thrust are now also tested.
> 
> So let me now connect this to by above earlier post: Irans light ICBM program which my has surfaced in North Korea, Irans main strategic technology partner.
> The reason for Iran to give a difficultly developed ICBM may be simple: North Korea took the burden and did nuclear testings up to a hydrogen bomb. If data is shared with Iran as one could expect, then Irans ICBM technology in return makes sense.
> So in the last post I explained why that system looks Iranian.
> Now I want to show some results of scaling calculations from all released open source material.
> 
> First point: Would a conventional ICBM be feasible?
> Key to that is miniaturization and materials on one side and level of precision striking on the other hand.
> What do we know about Irans capabilities in this fields?
> 
> Materials: The turning point was the presentation of the Fateh-313, later the Zolfaghar up to the Dezful.
> to make it short: These systems use composite booster casings.
> The lowest performing material in this class is fiberglass from which the Russian Yars ICBM is made.
> The highest performing material is carbon/graphite epoxy and while we don't know what earlier missiles used, a few months ago Iran presented the Dezful which has a characteristic black nozzle.
> People at ACW confirm this: Already the Zolfaghar casing looked like a carnon/graphite casing instead of firberglass or Aramid.
> So one key technology for lightweight miniaturization is already in Iran. At this point even best Russian systems such as the Bulava and certainly Yars/Topol as well as North Korean solids use aramid/fiberglass primarily.
> What is the goal of all of this? Create a cost effective two-stage ICBM where other countries are forced to create more complex 3-stage systems.
> Even more: Enable to reach necessary intercontinental ranges of 11.000km (U.S eastcoast) by just developing a new variant of the Sejil two-stage solid fuel MRBM.
> 
> At this point I need to open a case:
> Fateh generation 1 missiles had a steel casing and 200km range.
> Dezful ("Fateh" generation 7) has apparently a carbon/graphite casing and a range of 1000km.
> 
> Sejil generation 1 missiles had a steel casing and 2000km range.
> Light ICBM cold hence achieve... calculation shows: exactly 10.000km assuming the same proportional technological improvement as Fateh-G1 to Dezful.
> 
> Now things are not as easy: Iran has two constrains: It wants a system not larger in length than the existing Sejil and Ghadr/Shahab-3 series of TELs. This lowers probability of detection ---> no 10x10 heavy off-road TEL as option (no forests to mask them). Size wise it hence must be also be able to the carried by those kind of trucks which dictates max. weight and diameter.
> This is the reason why I believe the North Korean system to be the Iranian one actually: That TEL system has the same overall size as the Sejil.
> 
> My scaling calculations show that the weight would be less than two Sejils but more than the Bulava: ~40 tons. This is a good fit for the tested 90t boosters at Shahroud.
> The larger diameter estimated to be 1,8m would then allow an heavier warhead then the Sejil, about twice as heavy or 2-3 Separate warheads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a North Korean intended leak of such a two stage solid fuel ICBM.
> 
> At this point I need to give a reminder: North Korea had great achievements with their Pukguksong series of solid fuel missiles without the visible decade long testing work Iran did on its boosters. The made a big jump ahead of Irans current Sejil: They demonstrated cold launch which increases survivability of the TEL, a more compact TVC, and retractable fins.
> However "their" casing technology is not carbon/graphite based not have they key technologies such as a boost termination system which the Sejil has. The helped Iran with its liquids and are masters in that field but their solid fuel technology seems to have been transferred by Iran to them.
> 
> The result of what is visible and what Iran has demonstrated in other systems creates one, amazing possebility: A two stage solid ICBM, as long as the Sejil, not reaching even twice its weight and a twice higher throw weight.
> An ICBM that could probably be produced at 2-3 times the price of the Sejil, 15-20 times less then equivalent western nuclear ICBMs.
> Here it can't be stressed enough what huge and elegant achievement the Dezul represents for Iran. Being able to strike Israel from Iran with a miniature, single stage 4,5t missile is an absolute nightmare for Israel: It requires a state of the art technology level to create a system with such a high performance: Key was the carbon-graphite technology.
> 
> So what other key technology is needed?
> What was mentioned is sufficient for a nuclear light ICBM. However without a MaRV, it is not possible to achieve an accuracy below ~130m CEP: That is sufficient against soft targets when a ~1000kg warhead is used, more so with an air burst. This might be the intermediate step and deemed sufficient but the key are MaRVs. MaRVs would enable 10-30m accuracy levels and the throw weight could be split to 2-3 MaRVs each having 500kg warheads.
> 
> As said in the previous post, this is just fantasy at this point: No country in the world has achieved something like that: MaRV at intercontinental ranges have been tested as prototypes but simply too hard to master. Only confirmed system is the Russian Avangard which is even a step beyond classical MaRV. Technological difficulty is one point, price of such MaRVs another.
> 
> So where is Iran here? Iran has demonstrated high accuracy levels with its MaRV'ed Khorramshahr-2 MRBM.
> The accuracy was so high that only 4 known guidance methods could have achieved it:
> - Ground Radio corrected trajectory: Not robust enough in wartime
> - GPS guidance: Not robust enough in wartime
> - INS: Not known to be able to achieve such high accuracy levels. Drifts the longer the range gets.
> - Astro-Navigation: Iran has not demonstrated a astro-nav system with such a high accuracy level, but U.S and Russians have.
> 
> From all those systems only an astro-nav system would be cost effective, robust and accurate enough. The MaRV would then use cost effective G-hardned accelerometers to compensate the atmospheric errors (needed to achieve <130m accuracy).
> One thing must be realized here: U.S Pershing II of the 80's used a MaRV which required terminal guidance to achieve a accuracy like that shown in the Khorramshahr-2 test. Achieving the displayed accuracy without terminal guidance is very significant for one goal: MaRV for IRBM to ICBM level ranges (speeds), where terminal radar or optical guidance would be impossible due to the thermal effects of high speed re-entry.
> So Iran has demonstrated MaRV technology that probably would work to a range beyond the stated 2000km, estimated 4000km would be possible with nose modifications. However beyond that, up to 11.000km, that MaRV would have to be completely redesigned and new technologies achieved.
> 
> Beside all this, there is another key problem that needs a technological solution:
> - Either a very precise thrust termination system if a single heavy RV, without MaRV is used: Demonstrated basically with the Sejil.
> - A crude, high altitude MaRV without a thrust termination system for trajectory correction.
> - A Saman like bus system for multiple unguided RVs in a evolved anti-ABM system.
> The Saman bus system is again a great achievement if successfully tested: It is a storeable, non-liquid bus system, something Russians are said to have integrated into their Bulava SLBM, creating a "all-solid" MIRV missile.
> With the Saman bus, the "footprint" can be increased: distance of targets attacked by the individual RVs. That is why a Saman like bus would also make sense for a 2-3 MaRV payload of the light ICBM.
> Most cost efficient approach would probably be to have point-point strike via 2-3 MaRVs which not need a bus system and correct their trajectory on their own (lower footprint and less anti-ABM capabilities).
> 
> Conclusion:
> A conventional global-precision-strike weapon is not feasible for official nuclear powers but possible for Iran.
> A solid fuel two stage ICBM requires primary the carbon/graphite technology displayed by Iran.
> Conventional warheads requires guidance systems accuracy displayed by Iran.
> Pin-point-strike requires, MaRV technology displayed at a lower-grade level by Iran.
> Jump from two-stage Sejil to two-stage ICBM demonstrated by Iran in terms of technology via the improvement from Fateh G1 to Dezful.
> 
> PS: A good time to open this topic, now that Iran wants to pressure the west on Barjam.



A great amount of information unfortunately it lead to a conclusion that began right where it started: with nothing.

To equate NK’s jump in ICBM technology or solid fuel to Iran is a bit of naive nationalism. It’s clear a nation state has helped NK in this quite impressive jump from failure and failure to 3 long range modern powerful missiles. But I believe that state to be China along with consent from Russia as the engine that powers them is a Russian engine and not anything that I believe Iran could easily reverse engineer on its own let alone engineer and export.

Iran has been linked to an ICBM program since the 90’s. The truth is Iran is struggling in that department and years after Tehrani’s death Iran still has not moved from engine stand testing stage.

You lead the reader on great informative journey detailing the ways that Iran could create a cost effective conventional ICBM while at the same time sharing important information about both NK and Iran Missile programs. 

However, the journey falls apart at issue of accuracy, where you ultimately doubt if it is even possible to get the <20M accuracy needed for such a missile given the requirements.

So again we are right back where we started.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> *Part II:*
> 
> Yesterday "civilian" Israeli open source twitter published this about the testings at Shahrud:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153698442235011072
> So Shahid Tehrani Moghaddams program has entered a new phase of intensive testing recently.
> 
> What is being tested? According to the Armscontrolwonk crew a ~90t booster which is e.g about what is estimated for the Russian intercontinental range Bulava SLBM.
> That booster was already tested years ago (3-5) but the intensity and numbers of tests increased very much in the last months. New boosters with higher thrust are now also tested.
> 
> So let me now connect this to by above earlier post: Irans light ICBM program which my has surfaced in North Korea, Irans main strategic technology partner.
> The reason for Iran to give a difficultly developed ICBM may be simple: North Korea took the burden and did nuclear testings up to a hydrogen bomb. If data is shared with Iran as one could expect, then Irans ICBM technology in return makes sense.
> So in the last post I explained why that system looks Iranian.
> Now I want to show some results of scaling calculations from all released open source material.
> 
> First point: Would a conventional ICBM be feasible?
> Key to that is miniaturization and materials on one side and level of precision striking on the other hand.
> What do we know about Irans capabilities in this fields?
> 
> Materials: The turning point was the presentation of the Fateh-313, later the Zolfaghar up to the Dezful.
> to make it short: These systems use composite booster casings.
> The lowest performing material in this class is fiberglass from which the Russian Yars ICBM is made.
> The highest performing material is carbon/graphite epoxy and while we don't know what earlier missiles used, a few months ago Iran presented the Dezful which has a characteristic black nozzle.
> People at ACW confirm this: Already the Zolfaghar casing looked like a carnon/graphite casing instead of firberglass or Aramid.
> So one key technology for lightweight miniaturization is already in Iran. At this point even best Russian systems such as the Bulava and certainly Yars/Topol as well as North Korean solids use aramid/fiberglass primarily.
> What is the goal of all of this? Create a cost effective two-stage ICBM where other countries are forced to create more complex 3-stage systems.
> Even more: Enable to reach necessary intercontinental ranges of 11.000km (U.S eastcoast) by just developing a new variant of the Sejil two-stage solid fuel MRBM.
> 
> At this point I need to open a case:
> Fateh generation 1 missiles had a steel casing and 200km range.
> Dezful ("Fateh" generation 7) has apparently a carbon/graphite casing and a range of 1000km.
> 
> Sejil generation 1 missiles had a steel casing and 2000km range.
> Light ICBM cold hence achieve... calculation shows: exactly 10.000km assuming the same proportional technological improvement as Fateh-G1 to Dezful.
> 
> Now things are not as easy: Iran has two constrains: It wants a system not larger in length than the existing Sejil and Ghadr/Shahab-3 series of TELs. This lowers probability of detection ---> no 10x10 heavy off-road TEL as option (no forests to mask them). Size wise it hence must be also be able to the carried by those kind of trucks which dictates max. weight and diameter.
> This is the reason why I believe the North Korean system to be the Iranian one actually: That TEL system has the same overall size as the Sejil.
> 
> My scaling calculations show that the weight would be less than two Sejils but more than the Bulava: ~40 tons. This is a good fit for the tested 90t boosters at Shahroud.
> The larger diameter estimated to be 1,8m would then allow an heavier warhead then the Sejil, about twice as heavy or 2-3 Separate warheads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a North Korean intended leak of such a two stage solid fuel ICBM.
> 
> At this point I need to give a reminder: North Korea had great achievements with their Pukguksong series of solid fuel missiles without the visible decade long testing work Iran did on its boosters. The made a big jump ahead of Irans current Sejil: They demonstrated cold launch which increases survivability of the TEL, a more compact TVC, and retractable fins.
> However "their" casing technology is not carbon/graphite based not have they key technologies such as a boost termination system which the Sejil has. The helped Iran with its liquids and are masters in that field but their solid fuel technology seems to have been transferred by Iran to them.
> 
> The result of what is visible and what Iran has demonstrated in other systems creates one, amazing possebility: A two stage solid ICBM, as long as the Sejil, not reaching even twice its weight and a twice higher throw weight.
> An ICBM that could probably be produced at 2-3 times the price of the Sejil, 15-20 times less then equivalent western nuclear ICBMs.
> Here it can't be stressed enough what huge and elegant achievement the Dezul represents for Iran. Being able to strike Israel from Iran with a miniature, single stage 4,5t missile is an absolute nightmare for Israel: It requires a state of the art technology level to create a system with such a high performance: Key was the carbon-graphite technology.
> 
> So what other key technology is needed?
> What was mentioned is sufficient for a nuclear light ICBM. However without a MaRV, it is not possible to achieve an accuracy below ~130m CEP: That is sufficient against soft targets when a ~1000kg warhead is used, more so with an air burst. This might be the intermediate step and deemed sufficient but the key are MaRVs. MaRVs would enable 10-30m accuracy levels and the throw weight could be split to 2-3 MaRVs each having 500kg warheads.
> 
> As said in the previous post, this is just fantasy at this point: No country in the world has achieved something like that: MaRV at intercontinental ranges have been tested as prototypes but simply too hard to master. Only confirmed system is the Russian Avangard which is even a step beyond classical MaRV. Technological difficulty is one point, price of such MaRVs another.
> 
> So where is Iran here? Iran has demonstrated high accuracy levels with its MaRV'ed Khorramshahr-2 MRBM.
> The accuracy was so high that only 4 known guidance methods could have achieved it:
> - Ground Radio corrected trajectory: Not robust enough in wartime
> - GPS guidance: Not robust enough in wartime
> - INS: Not known to be able to achieve such high accuracy levels. Drifts the longer the range gets.
> - Astro-Navigation: Iran has not demonstrated a astro-nav system with such a high accuracy level, but U.S and Russians have.
> 
> From all those systems only an astro-nav system would be cost effective, robust and accurate enough. The MaRV would then use cost effective G-hardned accelerometers to compensate the atmospheric errors (needed to achieve <130m accuracy).
> One thing must be realized here: U.S Pershing II of the 80's used a MaRV which required terminal guidance to achieve a accuracy like that shown in the Khorramshahr-2 test. Achieving the displayed accuracy without terminal guidance is very significant for one goal: MaRV for IRBM to ICBM level ranges (speeds), where terminal radar or optical guidance would be impossible due to the thermal effects of high speed re-entry.
> So Iran has demonstrated MaRV technology that probably would work to a range beyond the stated 2000km, estimated 4000km would be possible with nose modifications. However beyond that, up to 11.000km, that MaRV would have to be completely redesigned and new technologies achieved.
> 
> Beside all this, there is another key problem that needs a technological solution:
> - Either a very precise thrust termination system if a single heavy RV, without MaRV is used: Demonstrated basically with the Sejil.
> - A crude, high altitude MaRV without a thrust termination system for trajectory correction.
> - A Saman like bus system for multiple unguided RVs in a evolved anti-ABM system.
> The Saman bus system is again a great achievement if successfully tested: It is a storeable, non-liquid bus system, something Russians are said to have integrated into their Bulava SLBM, creating a "all-solid" MIRV missile.
> With the Saman bus, the "footprint" can be increased: distance of targets attacked by the individual RVs. That is why a Saman like bus would also make sense for a 2-3 MaRV payload of the light ICBM.
> Most cost efficient approach would probably be to have point-point strike via 2-3 MaRVs which not need a bus system and correct their trajectory on their own (lower footprint and less anti-ABM capabilities).
> 
> Conclusion:
> A conventional global-precision-strike weapon is not feasible for official nuclear powers but possible for Iran.
> A solid fuel two stage ICBM requires primary the carbon/graphite technology displayed by Iran.
> Conventional warheads requires guidance systems accuracy displayed by Iran.
> Pin-point-strike requires, MaRV technology displayed at a lower-grade level by Iran.
> Jump from two-stage Sejil to two-stage ICBM demonstrated by Iran in terms of technology via the improvement from Fateh G1 to Dezful.
> 
> PS: A good time to open this topic, now that Iran wants to pressure the west on Barjam.



A few questions 

1. On an ICBM why can't an INS corrected by counter imaging & or radar mapping technology capable of identifying and filtering clouds.... be used for trajectory correction before you get to the Atlantic & again be used for terminal guidance once over the Atlantic and up until a spinning RV is released right before you hit the atmosphere over your target 

2. On wider diameter missile if from the start you accept that your building them to save money only on boosters, personal & storage not guidance systems, buses,.... what exactly would the technical problems be if for example a large booster was to release 8-9 independent PBV's each equipped with a single warhead, navigation, guidance & control systems sensors,..... meant mainly to tackle targets within 2000km of Iran's boarders.
And theoretically such a platform should be much harder to intercept post boost since a single missile launch from central Iran suddenly turns into multiple hypersonic course correcting, independently guided & powered projectiles in space just as it's about to exits Iran's boarders(in space) making it much harder for anti ballistic missiles systems to react.... 

And I'd say just because it hasn't been done before it doesn't mean it's beyond Iran's reach & one of the reason it hasn't been done is because most countries with the capability to build such boosters simply go the ICBM rout....

3.For practical use I just don't see ICBM's as a practical weapon without a nuclear stockpile. As I said, simply put Iran would have to be suicidal to hit US soil even with a conventional ICBM without 1st building up a nuclear deterrence. And the only target beyond 5,000km worth the cost of an ICBM would be US soil.

Also, with current U.S. behavior I just don't see any reason as to why Iran wouldn't move quickly towards building a good size nuclear stockpile. And although Nukes are rather useless weapon in a practical sense, if their one and only use is to prevent a nuclear attack on your own soil while allowing you to respond conventionally against any enemy anywhere then they are well worth it since we are already paying the political cost for it to a point that they are now messing with our shipping so I really don't see any reason to hold back! Iran has to clearly explain to China, Russia & EU that the U.S. has left us with no choice but to leave the NPT we tried a deal & none of you were willing to properly stand against US absurdities & EU did a lot of talking but in action an EU country using EU sanctions as an excuse confiscated our Tanker like a bunch of pirates so there is nothing left to say, we're out!

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> To equate NK’s jump in ICBM technology or solid fuel to Iran is a bit of naive nationalism. It’s clear a nation state has helped NK in this quite impressive jump from failure and failure to 3 long range modern powerful missiles. But I believe that state to be China along with consent from Russia as the engine that powers them is a Russian engine and not anything that I believe Iran could easily reverse engineer on its own let alone engineer and export.



China would probably assist them with one of their programs if at all, the liquid one. North Koreans just somehow had leverage on the source country to get that kind of solid fuel technology.
Iran and North Korea are unofficial strategic partners.
I agree that China is a option for their solid technology, Russia is much less likely and Iran is most likely. Simply because as strategic partners North Korea has leverage on Iran by their readiness to do nuclear tests at least. But they have nothing to offer to the Chinese which would likely support them on one technology able to hit the U.S.

There is no typical engineering signature of North Korean solid technology being of Iranian origin but their lack of testings from small motors to larger ones over a long time-span indicates that they very likely got support from somewhere. Likely Iran, less likely China.

Irans path on the other hand is clear, has its own signature and started at the end of the war.



TheImmortal said:


> Iran has been linked to an ICBM program since the 90’s. The truth is Iran is struggling in that department and years after Tehrani’s death Iran still has not moved from engine stand testing stage.



Engine stand testing is the key hurdle. Iran has political reasons not to test 2000km+ BMs and nuclear weapons.
Iran and North Korea do the other hurdle, re-entry testings via exposing the RV to rocket motor exhaust gases.
All mainly because the political backlash such testings would result in.
Their competence level in these testings is very high by now. Irans Khorramshahr with MaRV was the 2-3 testing of any baseline Khorramshahr variant. Same goes for the North Koreans which also just need 1-2 tests to achieve success.
The two, 90 ton thrust main motor tests at Shahroud withing 45 days show that the program is very active by now.
We can be very confident that probably all necessary subsystems for the non-MaRV light ICBM are ready with high confidence levels. The Sejil is a flight dynamics proof of concept for such a light ICBM (except for the heat shield/RV issue).



TheImmortal said:


> However, the journey falls apart at issue of accuracy, where you ultimately doubt if it is even possible to get the <20M accuracy needed for such a missile given the requirements.
> 
> So again we are right back where we started.



50% of my post is relevant to a non-MaRV variant with typical ICBM level accuracy (500-130m) well sufficient for nuclear warheads.
50% of the rest is dedicated to the idea of a economic conventional ICBM of decreased complexity and large degree of miniaturization.
The nuclear variant, which I think we have seen in the North Korean parade, likely has been ready since several years but we will likely never see it until it is phased out by a next generation system: It will remain a secret weapon.
But the possibility of a conventional ICBM could bring it out of the realm of strategic secret weapons. I think Iran has proven its feasibility. The MaRV variant of it would be the ultimate goal of it, capable to hit hardened "counter-force" targets conventionally.
A key aspect of my message is this: Irans open solid fuel technology level is now at Dezful-level and will increase. We now know about carbon-carbon/graphite nozzles and composite casings. With this trend, a conventional two stage ICBM will become more and more a economic option for Iran.



VEVAK said:


> 1. On an ICBM why can't an INS corrected by counter imaging & or radar mapping technology capable of identifying and filtering clouds.... be used for trajectory correction before you get to the Atlantic & again be used for terminal guidance once over the Atlantic and up until a spinning RV is released right before you hit the atmosphere over your target



This is another guidance method but never achieved anywhere was far as known. This guidance method would allow for an antiship-ICBM. China should have such a system for IRBM class missiles. ICBMs simply create such a huge thermal "mess" that equipping them with a radar able to do its job in such a environment is deemed as a very difficult task. Even at IRBM ranges the DF-26 probably has a low velocity RV that deaccelerates to MRBM level speeds before starting the terminal engagement procedure.
This is something that is not desired of course, re-entry speed is the key to overcome enemy ABM.
Against static targets, astro-nav is a ideal solution employed by the leaders in this field, U.S and Russia.



VEVAK said:


> 2. On wider diameter missile if from the start you accept that your building them to save money only on boosters, personal & storage not guidance systems, buses,.... what exactly would the technical problems be if for example a large booster was to release 8-9 independent PBV's each equipped with a single warhead, navigation, guidance & control systems sensors,..... meant mainly to tackle targets within 2000km of Iran's boarders.
> And theoretically such a platform should be much harder to intercept post boost since a single missile launch from central Iran suddenly turns into multiple hypersonic course correcting, independently guided & powered projectiles in space just as it's about to exits Iran's boarders(in space) making it much harder for anti ballistic missiles systems to react....



That is a good option for Iran which I have also described in the past. Individual PBV's would not be necessary, you could use a Khorramshahr-2 MaRV and add an exo-atmospheric gas control system to it, even cold gas if magnitude of maneuvering is low.
However this is judged to be cost-inefficient. Exo-atmospheric maneuvering for ABM avoidance seems to be skipped in favor for decoys, thermal decoys and chaff clouds.
So just detaching the MaRVs from the last stage + decoys and maybe ECM jamming would be the best solution here. Reduced strike footprint is also not important as the MaRV will spread out once in re-entry phase.
The reason Iran has not done this yet is the Khorramshahr: Iran uses more expensive solid fuel missiles for the "tactical", time-critical, immediate, mobile portion of strikes e.g against ABM assets. Liquids do the "strategic" portion of fixed targets that need to be taken out. That's why several MaRVs fired from a large diameter solid fuel missile is not very cost efficient for Iran.
I support a development of it however to make a technological statement within the 2000km limitation.



VEVAK said:


> 3.For practical use I just don't see ICBM's as a practical weapon without a nuclear stockpile. As I said, simply put Iran would have to be suicidal to hit US soil even with a conventional ICBM without 1st building up a nuclear deterrence. And the only target beyond 5,000km worth the cost of an ICBM would be US soil.



Here is where JCPOA/Barjam would be useful: with the nuclear program under safeguard control, the U.S would have very fragile justification to answer the launch of a single Iranian ICBM with a nuclear counter-attack.
I agree that Iran should have a hidden nuclear arsenal before doing it but here is the difference between North Korea and Iran: North Korea would have no chance to employ such a conventional ICBM at all as a nuclear power.

This is and was the only reason why I supported Barjam.
With the Dezful Iran has a weapon today that can strike all of northern Israel, it's main opponent.
1998 Iran needed the 17,5 ton "strategic" Shahab-3 to do that, now a 1/4, 4,5 ton tactical Dezful is doing it.
This trend will apply to a ICBM, a 23 ton Sejil would be replaced by a 35 ton ICBM, on a truck of the same size and a price just twice higher...



VEVAK said:


> Iran has to clearly explain to China, Russia & EU that the U.S. has left us with no choice but to leave the NPT we tried a deal & none of you were willing to properly stand against US absurdities & EU did a lot of talking but in action an EU country using EU sanctions as an excuse confiscated our Tanker like a bunch of pirates so there is nothing left to say, we're out!



This is the least elegant emergency solution that is always there, the easy route (excluded are domestic issues with a economically unsatisfied population). However I want to see a Iran that can strike targets globally at will, without a fragile fleet and carriers. If Iran is potent enough it may achieve this + having a emergency secret nuclear arsenal + a survivable and hardened latent/break-out capability.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> China would probably assist them with one of their programs if at all, the liquid one. North Koreans just somehow had leverage on the source country to get that kind of solid fuel technology.
> Iran and North Korea are unofficial strategic partners.
> I agree that China is a option for their solid technology, Russia is much less likely and Iran is most likely. Simply because as strategic partners North Korea has leverage on Iran by their readiness to do nuclear tests at least. But they have nothing to offer to the Chinese which would likely support them on one technology able to hit the U.S.
> 
> There is no typical engineering signature of North Korean solid technology being of Iranian origin but their lack of testings from small motors to larger ones over a long time-span indicates that they very likely got support from somewhere. Likely Iran, less likely China.
> 
> Irans path on the other hand is clear, has its own signature and started at the end of the war.
> 
> 
> 
> Engine stand testing is the key hurdle. Iran has political reasons not to test 2000km+ BMs and nuclear weapons.
> Iran and North Korea do the other hurdle, re-entry testings via exposing the RV to rocket motor exhaust gases.
> All mainly because the political backlash such testings would result in.
> Their competence level in these testings is very high by now. Irans Khorramshahr with MaRV was the 2-3 testing of any baseline Khorramshahr variant. Same goes for the North Koreans which also just need 1-2 tests to achieve success.
> The two, 90 ton thrust main motor tests at Shahroud withing 45 days show that the program is very active by now.
> We can be very confident that probably all necessary subsystems for the non-MaRV light ICBM are ready with high confidence levels. The Sejil is a flight dynamics proof of concept for such a light ICBM (except for the heat shield/RV issue).
> 
> 
> 
> 50% of my post is relevant to a non-MaRV variant with typical ICBM level accuracy (500-130m) well sufficient for nuclear warheads.
> 50% of the rest is dedicated to the idea of a economic conventional ICBM of decreased complexity and large degree of miniaturization.
> The nuclear variant, which I think we have seen in the North Korean parade, likely has been ready since several years but we will likely never see it until it is phased out by a next generation system: It will remain a secret weapon.
> But the possibility of a conventional ICBM could bring it out of the realm of strategic secret weapons. I think Iran has proven its feasibility. The MaRV variant of it would be the ultimate goal of it, capable to hit hardened "counter-force" targets conventionally.
> A key aspect of my message is this: Irans open solid fuel technology level is now at Dezful-level and will increase. We now know about carbon-carbon/graphite nozzles and composite casings. With this trend, a conventional two stage ICBM will become more and more a economic option for Iran.
> 
> 
> 
> This is another guidance method but never achieved anywhere was far as known. This guidance method would allow for an antiship-ICBM. China should have such a system for IRBM class missiles. ICBMs simply create such a huge thermal "mess" that equipping them with a radar able to do its job in such a environment is deemed as a very difficult task. Even at IRBM ranges the DF-26 probably has a low velocity RV that deaccelerates to MRBM level speeds before starting the terminal engagement procedure.
> This is something that is not desired of course, re-entry speed is the key to overcome enemy ABM.
> Against static targets, astro-nav is a ideal solution employed by the leaders in this field, U.S and Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good option for Iran which I have also described in the past. Individual PBV's would not be necessary, you could use a Khorramshahr-2 MaRV and add an exo-atmospheric gas control system to it, even cold gas if magnitude of maneuvering is low.
> However this is judged to be cost-inefficient. Exo-atmospheric maneuvering for ABM avoidance seems to be skipped in favor for decoys, thermal decoys and chaff clouds.
> So just detaching the MaRVs from the last stage + decoys and maybe ECM jamming would be the best solution here. Reduced strike footprint is also not important as the MaRV will spread out once in re-entry phase.
> The reason Iran has not done this yet is the Khorramshahr: Iran uses more expensive solid fuel missiles for the "tactical", time-critical, immediate, mobile portion of strikes e.g against ABM assets. Liquids do the "strategic" portion of fixed targets that need to be taken out. That's why several MaRVs fired from a large diameter solid fuel missile is not very cost efficient for Iran.
> I support a development of it however to make a technological statement within the 2000km limitation.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where JCPOA/Barjam would be useful: with the nuclear program under safeguard control, the U.S would have very fragile justification to answer the launch of a single Iranian ICBM with a nuclear counter-attack.
> I agree that Iran should have a hidden nuclear arsenal before doing it but here is the difference between North Korea and Iran: North Korea would have no chance to employ such a conventional ICBM at all as a nuclear power.
> 
> This is and was the only reason why I supported Barjam.
> With the Dezful Iran has a weapon today that can strike all of northern Israel, it's main opponent.
> 1998 Iran needed the 17,5 ton "strategic" Shahab-3 to do that, now a 1/4, 4,5 ton tactical Dezful is doing it.
> This trend will apply to a ICBM, a 23 ton Sejil would be replaced by a 35 ton ICBM, on a truck of the same size and a price just twice higher...
> 
> 
> 
> This is the least elegant emergency solution that is always there, the easy route (excluded are domestic issues with a economically unsatisfied population). However I want to see a Iran that can strike targets globally at will, without a fragile fleet and carriers. If Iran is potent enough it may achieve this + having a emergency secret nuclear arsenal + a survivable and hardened latent/break-out capability.



We'll have to disagree on your assessment that Iran could retaliate against U.S. soil without having a nuclear deterrence. Again, simply put a U.S. President reckless enough to start a war with a country as powerful as Iran will no doubt be reckless enough to respond to a conventional ICBM attack on U.S. soil with Nukes. These aren't ppl that care much about international law!

I also disagree with you on Sea based weapons like light carriers & missile cruisers, for Iran's use a +450ft long missile cruiser & UAV carrier armed with a large number of UAV's & UCAV's (like the Saegheh) will go a long way and should most definitely be considered as a priority project for Iran's Navy because at the end of the day Iran can NOT afford to build a military based on the assumption that the U.S. is the one and ONLY threat now and forever. And Iran most defiantly needs to take better advantage of it's vast coastline by building coastal cities that with it comes the requirement of creating jobs and expansion of ship building both in the civilian and military sector should be on top of the list especially in areas east of Jask and using military as a starting point to create infrastructure, training personal & providing security is the best and only way forward. 

As for further diplomacy on the JCPOA at the end of the day when a company like Pequot where a large portion of it's income is dependent on Iran runs with it's tail tucked in and not because their government wants it but simply out of fear of the U.S might do to them then what exactly is the point of further dialogue with the EU after a year of fruitless talks? If economic hardship in Iran is continuing to mount it's mainly due to this governments failure to swiftly react to U.S. actions after their withdraw of the JCPOA that could have potentially brought them back down to reality! Also, when Trump appoint ppl like Bolton and Pompeo around him then clearly there is absolutely 0 room for any kind of real diplomacy with this U.S. administration. 
And the tactic of waiting out Trump and hoping for a more logical U.S. administration ONLY works if you don't show weakness by doing nothing. Fact is the next US administration will have NO reason to quickly remove sanctions and have this matter settled. However, what they will do is quite predictable. They will take advantage of the situation and drag it out with kind words while pressure mounts until Iran finally makes a major backroom concession in exchange and unless this administration plans to give up our missile program as easy as they gave up our SLV Program then they best go full force on the nuclear program by going well beyond Iran's civilian needs before hand. And unless Iranian politicians are now under the delusion keh Democrat ha ashegheh cheshmo abroomon shodan then they best act. And that's only if Trump doesn't get reelected! And I believe the best way to ensure that he doesn't get reelected is to test a Nuke before the U.S. elections to show the utter failure of his foreign policy but to properly do that Iran has to leave the JCPOA & the NPT before hand to show that those agreements and mechanisms actually worked when they were in place. And I don't believe that to be an easy rout but rather a necessary rout due to the economic pressures we have faced because we are already being punished for something we haven't actually done so we might as well do the deed already and get it over with!

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## Surenas

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154515756375318529

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## Saddam Hussein

TheImmortal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1153072141463691271



There was no airstrike, PMU stated. it was a small fire


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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154515194262904833


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## Websorber

*Iran fires ballistic missile 1,000km in provocative test amid tanker row with US and UK*

*https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9587313/iran-fires-ballistic-missile-test-tanker-row-us-uk/*

*







*

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## Hassan Al-Somal

When countries/companies/organizations complete a project, they tested it to ensure it is operational and meets requirements. So how does testing 1,000km missile that didn't hit the territory of another country is provocative?



Websorber said:


> *Iran fires ballistic missile 1,000km in provocative test amid tanker row with US and UK*
> 
> *https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9587313/iran-fires-ballistic-missile-test-tanker-row-us-uk/*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 570836
> *

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## Ich

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> When countries/companies/organizations complete a project, they tested it to ensure it is operational and meets requirements. So how does testing 1,000km missile that didn't hit the territory of another country is provocative?



Cause if not, all war preparations and wars will end with a loaud laughter immediately.

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## Shams313

Iskander looking tactical BM by N. Korea...600 km range..pretty good development...

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## yavar



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## raptor22

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> When countries/companies/organizations complete a project, they tested it to ensure it is operational and meets requirements. So how does testing 1,000km missile that didn't hit the territory of another country is provocative?


In the world of double standards it's is provocative ...

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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> We'll have to disagree on your assessment that Iran could retaliate against U.S. soil without having a nuclear deterrence. Again, simply put a U.S. President reckless enough to start a war with a country as powerful as Iran will no doubt be reckless enough to respond to a conventional ICBM attack on U.S. soil with Nukes. These aren't ppl that care much about international law!



Yes we have to disagree. The scenario could be with a ultimatum to hit the pentagon at a certain hour with one conventional missile. Then the pace would increase and no warnings made anymore. No salvo attack to avoid misunderstandings. Even a proportional, single U.S nuclear counter attack would create huge public backlash.

But the insurance would be a latent capability or secret arsenal to enable retaliation --> forbid U.S nuclear attack.



VEVAK said:


> I also disagree with you on Sea based weapons like light carriers & missile cruisers, for Iran's use a +450ft long missile cruiser & UAV carrier armed with a large number of UAV's & UCAV's (like the Saegheh) will go a long way and should most definitely be considered as a priority project for Iran's Navy because at the end of the day Iran can NOT afford to build a military based on the assumption that the U.S. is the one and ONLY threat now and forever. And Iran most defiantly needs to take better advantage of it's vast coastline by building coastal cities that with it comes the requirement of creating jobs and expansion of ship building both in the civilian and military sector should be on top of the list especially in areas east of Jask and using military as a starting point to create infrastructure, training personal & providing security is the best and only way forward.



I agree with you if the scale is a expedition force like Russias carrier group. The bulk of global strike capability would be performed by that conventional ICBM.
Honestly with the end of the INF treaty, I see a arms race which will increase the number of states with AshBM and hypesonic anti-ship weapons.
Survivability of carriers and warships will reduce and only remain effective against a much inferior opponent. I agree with you that we should have it, but Iran can't rely its global strike component on such a costly and fragile asset. 1-3 such expedition groups max.



VEVAK said:


> As for further diplomacy on the JCPOA at the end of the day when a company like Pequot where a large portion of it's income is dependent on Iran runs with it's tail tucked in and not because their government wants it but simply out of fear of the U.S might do to them then what exactly is the point of further dialogue with the EU after a year of fruitless talks? If economic hardship in Iran is continuing to mount it's mainly due to this governments failure to swiftly react to U.S. actions after their withdraw of the JCPOA that could have potentially brought them back down to reality! Also, when Trump appoint ppl like Bolton and Pompeo around him then clearly there is absolutely 0 room for any kind of real diplomacy with this U.S. administration.
> And the tactic of waiting out Trump and hoping for a more logical U.S. administration ONLY works if you don't show weakness by doing nothing. Fact is the next US administration will have NO reason to quickly remove sanctions and have this matter settled. However, what they will do is quite predictable. They will take advantage of the situation and drag it out with kind words while pressure mounts until Iran finally makes a major backroom concession in exchange and unless this administration plans to give up our missile program as easy as they gave up our SLV Program then they best go full force on the nuclear program by going well beyond Iran's civilian needs before hand. And unless Iranian politicians are now under the delusion keh Democrat ha ashegheh cheshmo abroomon shodan then they best act. And that's only if Trump doesn't get reelected! And I believe the best way to ensure that he doesn't get reelected is to test a Nuke before the U.S. elections to show the utter failure of his foreign policy but to properly do that Iran has to leave the JCPOA & the NPT before hand to show that those agreements and mechanisms actually worked when they were in place. And I don't believe that to be an easy rout but rather a necessary rout due to the economic pressures we have faced because we are already being punished for something we haven't actually done so we might as well do the deed already and get it over with!



JCPOA is Irans key to this concept:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran-and-conventional-counter-force.601382/

I understand why Iranian Patriots don't like to hear it but my understanding of Barjam is something completely different to theirs. JCPOA can give Iran a unique conventional counter-force capability, I don't care much about international relations or economical benefits.
Plus I think there is a high probability that Iran already has a nuclear weapons capability right now. The U.S probably only signed it because the awareness of Irans secret nuclear arsenal and Trump used his mad-man public image to take a emergency exit out of it.
So my view on the issue is completely different. I actually think Barjam was a political miracle, masterminded by the Leader himself.

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## TheImmortal

Guess Iran decided to skip Shahab-4


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154639686482182144

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## Draco.IMF

TheImmortal said:


> Guess Iran decided to skip Shahab-4
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154639686482182144



Babak..and I just stopped reading further

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## Blue In Green

Correct me if I'm wrong but would it be logical to assume that Iran has upgraded or is in the process of upgrading the guidance capabilities of its older Shahab line of BM's with those new guidance modules?

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## PeeD

North Koreas test of its Iskander-like missile has implications for the Zolfaghar and Dezful.

South Koreans claim that their sensors have detected aero-maneuvering which involved a pop-up maneuver following a vertical dive.

One assumed advantage the Iskander had over the Zolfaghar, were its vernier thrusters which allowed sudden maneuvers in near-exo-atmospheric conditions. The North Korean missile seems to skip their use and instead do a somewhat complicated aero-breaking maneuver to achieve similar maneuvers in result.

We can expect the Zolfaghar/Dezful to have a similar capability if used in an anti-ABM mode.
Skipping the vernier thruster subsystem cuts the costs but the North Korean missile will pull less instant Gs in the pre-dive maneuvering phase and probably the early phases of the dive maneuver.
The Zolfaghar and Dezful on the other hand have significantly larger aerodynamic steering capability due to its small "MaRV".
Hence the disadvantage of the Zolfaghar and Dezul over the Iskander might have been solved by these advanced flight-dynamic maneuvering capabilities.
Or let me put it simpler: Zolfaghar and Dezful are like an Iskander with larger fins at just 1%3 of the size and the North Korean missile has shown that advanced maneuvering can be performed by a missile without vernier thrusters.

Iskander:
- Thrust vectoring system
- Vernier thrusters
- Fins

North Korean Iskander
- Thrust vectoring system
- Fins

Zolfaghar/Dezful
- Fins

If the resulting trajectory and maneuvering can be the same, then the Iranian design has saved the costs of two complex subsystems.

Simply putting larger fins on those Iskanders would create many problems and penalties, it can only be achieved an "MaRV'ed" design such as the Zolfaghar/Dezful.

Btw: This is an example of a own, unique signature of Irans missile engineering.

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## Shams313

Draco.IMF said:


> Babak..and I just stopped reading further


For some reason i think he is a indian...i donno if anyone already know his nationality..
But lately i found several Indian site doing propaganda business against iran and openly supporting israel... although arabs also supports Israel...

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> North Koreas test of its Iskander-like missile has implications for the Zolfaghar and Dezful.
> 
> South Koreans claim that their sensors have detected aero-maneuvering which involved a pop-up maneuver following a vertical dive.
> 
> One assumed advantage the Iskander had over the Zolfaghar, were its vernier thrusters which allowed sudden maneuvers in near-exo-atmospheric conditions. The North Korean missile seems to skip their use and instead do a somewhat complicated aero-breaking maneuver to achieve similar maneuvers in result.
> 
> We can expect the Zolfaghar/Dezful to have a similar capability if used in an anti-ABM mode.
> Skipping the vernier thruster subsystem cuts the costs but the North Korean missile will pull less instant Gs in the pre-dive maneuvering phase and probably the early phases of the dive maneuver.
> The Zolfaghar and Dezful on the other hand have significantly larger aerodynamic steering capability due to its small "MaRV".
> Hence the disadvantage of the Zolfaghar and Dezul over the Iskander might have been solved by these advanced flight-dynamic maneuvering capabilities.
> Or let me put it simpler: Zolfaghar and Dezful are like an Iskander with larger fins at just 1%3 of the size and the North Korean missile has shown that advanced maneuvering can be performed by a missile without vernier thrusters.
> 
> Iskander:
> - Thrust vectoring system
> - Vernier thrusters
> - Fins
> 
> North Korean Iskander
> - Thrust vectoring system
> - Fins
> 
> Zolfaghar/Dezful
> - Fins
> 
> If the resulting trajectory and maneuvering can be the same, then the Iranian design has saved the costs of two complex subsystems.
> 
> Simply putting larger fins on those Iskanders would create many problems and penalties, it can only be achieved an "MaRV'ed" design such as the Zolfaghar/Dezful.
> 
> Btw: This is an example of a own, unique signature of Irans missile engineering.



If Dezful doesn’t have a thrust vectoring system then how can it peform anti-BM maneuvers?

Like I said earlier your claim that NK’s Missile advanced capabilities are a result of advancement in Iran’s domestic program was misled. NK has been developing Missiles far longer than Iran and was the one who gave Iran their first SCUDs.

Like I said the ability for NK to build an Islander like Missile and also use a more modern Russian engine cluster for it’s ICBM program point to a nation stage such as China or Russia or potentially rogue former scientists of either country helping NK.

Iran has NOT demonstrated knowledge in either product.

The whole Ghaem Missile and 90 ton solid fuel engines are at this point as real as a German wunderweapon. Briefly seen and with little intelligence they are just rumors. They may never seen mass production.

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## Type59

Shams313 said:


> For some reason i think he is a indian...i donno if anyone already know his nationality..
> But lately i found several Indian site doing propaganda business against iran and openly supporting israel... although arabs also supports Israel...



Rss ideology for you. Despite Iran being friendly with india, rss inspired population see Iran as an enemy. Does not take a genius to figure out why.


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## Shams313

Type59 said:


> Rss ideology for you. Despite Iran being friendly with india, rss inspired population see Iran as an enemy. Does not take a genius to figure out why.


It depends....but most of those rss exposing their true nature recently, openly offensive against muslim community and massive violation, their so called nationalism...
And their love for israel already reached another level...


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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> If Dezful doesn’t have a thrust vectoring system then how can it peform anti-BM maneuvers?
> 
> Like I said earlier your claim that NK’s Missile advanced capabilities are a result of advancement in Iran’s domestic program was misled. NK has been developing Missiles far longer than Iran and was the one who gave Iran their first SCUDs.
> 
> Like I said the ability for NK to build an Islander like Missile and also use a more modern Russian engine cluster for it’s ICBM program point to a nation stage such as China or Russia or potentially rogue former scientists of either country helping NK.
> 
> Iran has NOT demonstrated knowledge in either product.
> 
> The whole Ghaem Missile and 90 ton solid fuel engines are at this point as real as a German wunderweapon. Briefly seen and with little intelligence they are just rumors. They may never seen mass production.



Such missiles fly at quasi-ballistic depressed trajectories. Apogee is at 50km where they are able to manouver with their control surfaces. They just get quite hot by doing this one of the engineering hurdles. The Iskander also has Bernie thrusters as said.

As for North Korea: Sure they are real players in the missile field. The choose to model their missile around the Iskander, it is no copy of an Iranian system.
However both countries share certain achievements. So if their Iskander copy does aerodynamic breaking manouver then Zolfaghar likely does too in anti-ship mode.
Iran just has more manpower and money than North Korea. In total North Korea likely got tech. transfer on their solids, most likely from Iran. Remember: when their first ICBM was paraded, it was a Iranian attached next to their leader.

Iran's solid fuel ICBM program is clear, no wunderwaffe. It's a political issue for Iran.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Such missiles fly at quasi-ballistic depressed trajectories. Apogee is at 50km where they are able to manouver with their control surfaces. They just get quite hot by doing this one of the engineering hurdles. The Iskander also has Bernie thrusters as said.
> 
> As for North Korea: Sure they are real players in the missile field. The choose to model their missile around the Iskander, it is no copy of an Iranian system.
> However both countries share certain achievements. So if their Iskander copy does aerodynamic breaking manouver then Zolfaghar likely does too in anti-ship mode.
> Iran just has more manpower and money than North Korea. In total North Korea likely got tech. transfer on their solids, most likely from Iran. Remember: when their first ICBM was paraded, it was a Iranian attached next to their leader.
> 
> Iran's solid fuel ICBM program is clear, no wunderwaffe. It's a political issue for Iran.



Again I disput your information earlier generations of Fateh were quasi-ballistic. But it is believed that later generations are ballistic and exit the atmosphere.

I don’t believe that a Dezful can accurately evade just on control surfaces alone without the assistance of thrust vectors or vernier thrusters. This would lead the missile to have accuracy issues during evasion.

Again on one hand your saying Zolfghar does not follow NK Iskander in evasion technology maneuvers then on the other hand your saying it does. So which is it? Unless it has thrusters (which you said it does not) it cannot do the same move.

And Iranians being involved in military parades is nothing new. Iranian scientists have been there for nuclear tests as well, it doesn’t mean that Iran taught NK how to do the test. NK officials show up to iranian military tests and parades. 

You are using conjecture to make a lot of references, which have little to no evidence (that you are willing to share) to back it up. At this point you are throwing out theories with no basis.

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Again I disput your information earlier generations of Fateh were quasi-ballistic. But it is believed that later generations are ballistic and exit the atmosphere



Other way around: Early Fateh were likely ballistic missiles and evolved to quasi-ballistic ones.



TheImmortal said:


> I don’t believe that a Dezful can accurately evade just on control surfaces alone without the assistance of thrust vectors or vernier thrusters. This would lead the missile to have accuracy issues during evasion



It can, the North Korean Iskander did it too. The thrust hectoring system is only active on the first 1/4 - 1/6 of the total flight time.
It can even better due to the larger control surfaces.



TheImmortal said:


> Again on one hand your saying Zolfghar does not follow NK Iskander in evasion technology maneuvers then on the other hand your saying it does. So which is it? Unless it has thrusters (which you said it does not) it cannot do the same move.



It does, but they are different.



TheImmortal said:


> And Iranians being involved in military parades is nothing new. Iranian scientists have been there for nuclear tests as well, it doesn’t mean that Iran taught NK how to do the test. NK officials show up to iranian military tests and parades.



First and last time a foreign attached was standing with Kim on the podium.
First time North Korea presented their ICBM. Draw your own conclusions.



TheImmortal said:


> You are using conjecture to make a lot of references, which have little to no evidence (that you are willing to share) to back it up. At this point you are throwing out theories with no basis.



Connect the open source dots I mentioned. That thing being no ICBM is impossible at this point.

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## arashkamangir

TheImmortal said:


> Again I disput your information earlier generations of Fateh were quasi-ballistic. But it is believed that later generations are ballistic and exit the atmosphere.
> 
> I don’t believe that a Dezful can accurately evade just on control surfaces alone without the assistance of thrust vectors or vernier thrusters. This would lead the missile to have accuracy issues during evasion.
> 
> Again on one hand your saying Zolfghar does not follow NK Iskander in evasion technology maneuvers then on the other hand your saying it does. So which is it? Unless it has thrusters (which you said it does not) it cannot do the same move.
> 
> And Iranians being involved in military parades is nothing new. Iranian scientists have been there for nuclear tests as well, it doesn’t mean that Iran taught NK how to do the test. NK officials show up to iranian military tests and parades.
> 
> You are using conjecture to make a lot of references, which have little to no evidence (that you are willing to share) to back it up. At this point you are throwing out theories with no basis.




no, just no. Control surfaces are all you need to for any evasive maneuvers. In the case where there is thrust availability, course correction can be applied and that is an independent issue from vernier, thrust vectoring and control surfaces.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Other way around: Early Fateh were likely ballistic missiles and evolved to quasi-ballistic ones.



The first Fateh-110 was based partly off of Zezal-2 artillery rocket with a guidance system. Hence why they flew quasi ballistic paths. 


_Unlike the other members of the Fateh-110 family, which are often described as quasi-ballistic missiles, the Zolfaghar flies a true ballistic trajectory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fateh-110_

I will try to find a better source later.

To expect a 700KM-1000KM missile to be able to be quasi ballistic on a 50KM apogee doesn’t make sense to me. NK Iskander is because it’s range is similar to old Fateh-110’s.

But I disagree that Dezful and zolfghar can be quasi especially with the terminal velocity they have.


----------



## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> The first Fateh-110 was based partly off of Zezal-2 artillery rocket with a guidance system. Hence why they flew quasi ballistic paths.
> 
> 
> _Unlike the other members of the Fateh-110 family, which are often described as quasi-ballistic missiles, the Zolfaghar flies a true ballistic trajectory.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fateh-110_
> 
> I will try to find a better source later.
> 
> To expect a 700KM-1000KM missile to be able to be quasi ballistic on a 50KM apogee doesn’t make sense to me. NK Iskander is because it’s range is similar to old Fateh-110’s.
> 
> But I disagree that Dezful and zolfghar can be quasi especially with the terminal velocity they have.



Let me clarify something here:

Depressed trajectory / quasi-ballistic missiles is the difficult goal to master.
These sacrifice range and payload performance and need much more (thermal heating, actuator performance requirements) to become feasible. A ballistic missile like the SCUD or V-2 needs no solutions for those issues, it simply goes ballistic. Intuition also told me back in the days that leaving the atmosphere and re-enter it would be a much larger achievement than flying a depressed one at the edge of the atmosphere... but the truth is the opposite.
The art of the Iskander and why it became so famous is such a depressed trajectory.

The Fateh family is a very elegant solution from Irans missile school and is a real missile, not just a guided rocket. But from the Zolfaghar onward it likely is fully on pair with the Iskander in terms of maneuvering and anti-ABM solutions.

The Zolfaghar/Dezful CAN fly quasi-ballistic if a ABM system is present, like all other missiles they would sacrifice range to achieve that. The key to a carrier-killer variant of them is exactly this capability: depressed trajectory approach, aero-breaking, vertical 90° dive with activated Fathe Mobin like seeker with random high-G maneuvering in order to neutralize Aegis ABM system. That's probably the monster the U.S Navy fears Iran has.
The North Korean Iskander flew 690km, not above 50km altitude to make a sudden 90° vertical dive with maneuvering. Compared to it, the Zolfaghar/Dezful have even higher maneuvering capability.
The North Korean missile saves one critical subsystem to achieve that operation (vernier thruster), Irans Zolfaghar/Dezful saves two critical subsystems.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Let me clarify something here:
> 
> Depressed trajectory / quasi-ballistic missiles is the difficult goal to master.
> These sacrifice range and payload performance and need much more (thermal heating, actuator performance requirements) to become feasible. A ballistic missile like the SCUD or V-2 needs no solutions for those issues, it simply goes ballistic. Intuition also told me back in the days that leaving the atmosphere and re-enter it would be a much larger achievement than flying a depressed one at the edge of the atmosphere... but the truth is the opposite.
> The art of the Iskander and why it became so famous is such a depressed trajectory.
> 
> The Fateh family is a very elegant solution from Irans missile school and is a real missile, not just a guided rocket. But from the Zolfaghar onward it likely is fully on pair with the Iskander in terms of maneuvering and anti-ABM solutions.
> 
> The Zolfaghar/Dezful CAN fly quasi-ballistic if a ABM system is present, like all other missiles they would sacrifice range to achieve that. The key to a carrier-killer variant of them is exactly this capability: depressed trajectory approach, aero-breaking, vertical 90° dive with activated Fathe Mobin like seeker with random high-G maneuvering in order to neutralize Aegis ABM system. That's probably the monster the U.S Navy fears Iran has.
> The North Korean Iskander flew 690km, not above 50km altitude to make a sudden 90° vertical dive with maneuvering. Compared to it, the Zolfaghar/Dezful have even higher maneuvering capability.
> The North Korean missile saves one critical subsystem to achieve that operation (vernier thruster), Irans Zolfaghar/Dezful saves two critical subsystems.
> 
> View attachment 571097



If your saying by default Dezful/Zolfghar are ballistic missiles but upon intial launch can be changed to a “quasi” trajectory. Then the question is what is the true range of Dezful/Zolfghar?

Because US intelligence has never confirmed that Dezful or Zolfghar test has down complicated maneuvers. So either US intelligence has never announced it or Iran has never done it during a test.

Here is the trajectory the NK Iskander took


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154580704220581888
In a mere 10-15 years NK has gone from a “joke” in Missile testing (constant failures of soviet era missiles including Khorramshahr like missile and Tapedong) to nearly matching Russia in ABM maneuver technology.

Meanwhile since Sejil-2 Missile launch in 2008 and Tehrani’s death, Iran’s long range BM program has largely gone stagnant. Focus has been on Fateh family.

The fact this is massive jump in NK capability not being openly talked about is the GREATEST mystery.

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> If your saying by default Dezful/Zolfghar are ballistic missiles but upon intial launch can be changed to a “quasi” trajectory. Then the question is what is the true range of Dezful/Zolfghar?



By default they are depressed trajectory missiles, if no ABM system is protecting the area, they can omit the 90° diving maneuver and go for max. range.
If they have a ballistic mode their range would further increase.
DT allows pretending that a different target is the desired target and F-pole style energy-kill maneuvering when entering ABM envelope.
Plus all the classical DT benefits like lower warning time or later tracking, faster arrival to the target and a few others.



TheImmortal said:


> Because US intelligence has never confirmed that Dezful or Zolfghar test has down complicated maneuvers. So either US intelligence has never announced it or Iran has never done it during a test.
> 
> Here is the trajectory the NK Iskander took



Well that trajectory was a intended leak from North Korean side, otherwise the U.S would not have released such details. In fact due to Irans size they would probably have no means to track the Dezful trajectory anyway.
Iran basically made that clear when first revealing the Zolfaghar with its Iskander-like shaped MaRV.



TheImmortal said:


> In a mere 10-15 years NK has gone from a “joke” in Missile testing (constant failures of soviet era missiles including Khorramshahr like missile and Tapedong) to nearly matching Russia in ABM maneuver technology.



All their current tech. is "Soviet era" based.
They first tested that Khorramshahr-like missile in 2016 successfully. That technology is pretty high.
They were never a joke anyway and now can taste the fruits of their work.
But with solid fuel missiles they did a unnatural jump.
The story goes like this: The Khorramshahr was probably the first project where we can talk about a joint development with Iran contributing significantly. Their liquid fuel program went on up until they reached ICBM level.
However with solids they just got very short range Tochkas (copied via Syria) by the mid-2000's. The sudden jump to a two stage solid fuel SLBM with filament casing sounds like tech-transfer from Iran. Iran on the other hand had a clear testing history up until what was reached on solids.
North Korea is a mature missile power, that's why I say tech. transfer, as they have their own design school and own solutions.



TheImmortal said:


> Meanwhile since Sejil-2 Missile launch in 2008 and Tehrani’s death, Iran’s long range BM program has largely gone stagnant. Focus has been on Fateh family.



Thats the impression the west got. The Sejil is a very important missile for Iran and they don't like to show or detail it much.
So no: Sejil is there and active, just too hot to be in the middle. Dezful was a evolutionary step that could be politically justified + a display of Irans solid tech. level.
But the Leader has apparently given green light on the large solids as satellite images of Shahruoud show. With the right political atmosphere of U.S push to the corner, Iran may can justify a ICBM test politically: A ICBM that can be credibly regarded as conventional one due to technological details.
Shahid Tehranis dream may be revealed very soon.

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## Ich

Me is not sure if this kind of A4 missile tech will last longer. Its nearly 80 years old and me think all the derivates of this A4 are only builded for that long cause of its reentry speed and the problems of the AD to shot them down. But AD gets better and better and will switch to LASER in the next 20 years. So there will be no more speed bonus for BMs. Me think this is the reason why many armys in the world try to implement low flying hyper sonic vehicles to counteract the speed of the coming AD systems. BMs are a dying species. So why invest to much in it.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> By default they are depressed trajectory missiles, if no ABM system is protecting the area, they can omit the 90° diving maneuver and go for max. range.
> If they have a ballistic mode their range would further increase.
> DT allows pretending that a different target is the desired target and F-pole style energy-kill maneuvering when entering ABM envelope.
> Plus all the classical DT benefits like lower warning time or later tracking, faster arrival to the target and a few others.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that trajectory was a intended leak from North Korean side, otherwise the U.S would not have released such details. In fact due to Irans size they would probably have no means to track the Dezful trajectory anyway.
> Iran basically made that clear when first revealing the Zolfaghar with its Iskander-like shaped MaRV.
> 
> 
> 
> All their current tech. is "Soviet era" based.
> They first tested that Khorramshahr-like missile in 2016 successfully. That technology is pretty high.
> They were never a joke anyway and now can taste the fruits of their work.
> But with solid fuel missiles they did a unnatural jump.
> The story goes like this: The Khorramshahr was probably the first project where we can talk about a joint development with Iran contributing significantly. Their liquid fuel program went on up until they reached ICBM level.
> However with solids they just got very short range Tochkas (copied via Syria) by the mid-2000's. The sudden jump to a two stage solid fuel SLBM with filament casing sounds like tech-transfer from Iran. Iran on the other hand had a clear testing history up until what was reached on solids.
> North Korea is a mature missile power, that's why I say tech. transfer, as they have their own design school and own solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats the impression the west got. The Sejil is a very important missile for Iran and they don't like to show or detail it much.
> So no: Sejil is there and active, just too hot to be in the middle. Dezful was a evolutionary step that could be politically justified + a display of Irans solid tech. level.
> But the Leader has apparently given green light on the large solids as satellite images of Shahruoud show. With the right political atmosphere of U.S push to the corner, Iran may can justify a ICBM test politically: A ICBM that can be credibly regarded as conventional one due to technological details.
> Shahid Tehranis dream may be revealed very soon.




well US researchers believe the rocket motors could provide enough thrust for a missile that could cross between continents, slightly less powerful than the US Minuteman III ICBM, which can carry nuclear weapons *which means that you were right and the range is somewhere between 10,000 to 14,000 KM.




*

*

An image of the suspected rocket test facility taken May 23, 2018, showing on-going road improvements.*
*



*

the country’s leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, has said that Iran will not make missiles that could fly more than 2,000 kilometers (1,242 miles). *The rocket motors on these test stands would provide the power to exceed this limit.*




*The satellite images that exposed Iran’s secret rocket program*

*https://qz.com/1286633/planet-satellite-images-exposed-irans-secret-rocket-program/*

The researchers found in satellite images of a crater in the area around Shahrud, what they described as two “telltale ground scars,” both recent: one from 2016, the other June 2017. *The researchers believe these are concrete stands that supported the tested engines. They say the 2017 test used a 370 ton stand, suggesting the engine powered up to 90 tons of thrust — enough for an intercontinental ballistic missile.*

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/us...-expose-irans-secret-icbm-program/2018/05/23/

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> well US researchers believe the rocket motors could provide enough thrust for a missile that could cross between continents, slightly less powerful than the US Minuteman III ICBM, which can carry nuclear weapons *which means that you were right and the range is somewhere between 10,000 to 14,000 KM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> An image of the suspected rocket test facility taken May 23, 2018, showing on-going road improvements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> the country’s leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, has said that Iran will not make missiles that could fly more than 2,000 kilometers (1,242 miles). *The rocket motors on these test stands would provide the power to exceed this limit.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The satellite images that exposed Iran’s secret rocket program*
> 
> *https://qz.com/1286633/planet-satellite-images-exposed-irans-secret-rocket-program/*
> 
> The researchers found in satellite images of a crater in the area around Shahrud, what they described as two “telltale ground scars,” both recent: one from 2016, the other June 2017. *The researchers believe these are concrete stands that supported the tested engines. They say the 2017 test used a 370 ton stand, suggesting the engine powered up to 90 tons of thrust — enough for an intercontinental ballistic missile.*
> 
> https://www.jewishpress.com/news/us...-expose-irans-secret-icbm-program/2018/05/23/



At least they are smart now and doing engine tests far away in crater on a mountain range. If the engine explodes it will not jeopardize anything around it.

Plus how is 2016 & 2017 considered “recent”. 2-3 years is a considerable amount of time.

It’s clear these programs are after the Supreme Leader is gone. IRGC military plans are on the basis of 10, 25, and 50 years.

This 2000KM limit is a political limit that will be broken by IRGC when the time is right.

Though don’t expect to see mass produced ICBMs. These missiles are to be the future of an Iranian nuclear deterrent.

Iran is waiting for Saudi Arabia or Turkey to go nuclear to provide that pretext.

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## K210

PeeD said:


> In total North Korea likely got tech. transfer on their solids, most likely from Iran.



If true then why would the north koreans invest in testing/production infrastructure for solid fuel missles? They could just import ready built missiles/components from iran...

I would not be surprised if NK had been working on its pukguksong-1/pukguksong 2 SLBM/SRBM for a long time secretly and because of the fast pace of NK missile testing in recent years it just seems to us outsiders to be a "unnatural leap". The motors for these missiles are fairly basic with propellent loading most likely under the 10 ton mark. For measure indian SLV of 80s had 9 ton solid motor as first stage and that was developed at a time when india had no prior experience with large solid motors so it is not out of the realm of possibility that NK managed to pull off a similar feat with these new solid fuel missiles of theirs.


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## TheImmortal

K210 said:


> The motors for these missiles are fairly basic with propellent loading most likely under the 10 ton mark.


 
NK ICBMs are powered by RD-250 Russian clone engines with a 90 ton mark.


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## K210

TheImmortal said:


> NK ICBMs are powered by RD-250 Russian clone engines with a 90 ton mark.



Yes i know. I was referring to north korean pukguksong-1 and 2 missiles which are SRBMs. 

By the way the thrust of RD-250 is around the 80 ton mark.


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## PeeD

K210 said:


> If true then why would the north koreans invest in testing/production infrastructure for solid fuel missles? They could just import ready built missiles/components from iran...



That would not work with North Koreans, same as Iranians they want to master such capabilities not just buy them.
Point is that their testing and infrastructure does not look like extensive enough to make such a jump on their own. Plus they have to pay for a massive liquid program...



K210 said:


> I would not be surprised if NK had been working on its pukguksong-1/pukguksong 2 SLBM/SRBM for a long time secretly and because of the fast pace of NK missile testing in recent years it just seems to us outsiders to be a "unnatural leap".



They certainly have. But some key technologies would have been transferred. North Koreans would probably never just take a whole Iranian missile design. They take key subystems which need a massive amount of research to master.
I'm not saying they certainly got it from Iran.



K210 said:


> For measure indian SLV of 80s had 9 ton solid motor as first stage and that was developed at a time when india had no prior experience with large solid motors so it is not out of the realm of possibility that NK managed to pull off a similar feat with these new solid fuel missiles of theirs.



India is a different thing. India has massive amounts of engineers working and studying all around the world.
They had their jump due to foreign technology (but steal a huge achievement that early in time) and it took 10-15 years until the developed the other key technologies needed to turn that SLV into a robust missile system. So they reached a serious level at the end of the 90's rather.
Iran and North Korea are tightly controlled to avoid getting any missile related technology. India even gets tech. transfer deals to remain a credible threat to China.
India capability is indigenous and at high level today but don't compare it to North Korea development path. North Korea is best compared to Iran, tightly controlled from obtaining critical technologies from abroad.

Iran is, as seen per above post, working on a ~90t engine which needs a TVC technology that would fulfill the requirements. That testing is visible and started at least in 2016. So if Iran develops an ICBM tomorrow it makes sense they really tried hard to solve the booster casing and TVC critical technologies for a few years now. But if North Korea tests a solid fuel ICBM tomorrow... it would be suspicious.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> At least they are smart now and doing engine tests far away in crater on a mountain range. If the engine explodes it will not jeopardize anything around it.
> 
> Plus how is 2016 & 2017 considered “recent”. 2-3 years is a considerable amount of time.
> 
> It’s clear these programs are after the Supreme Leader is gone. IRGC military plans are on the basis of 10, 25, and 50 years.
> 
> This 2000KM limit is a political limit that will be broken by IRGC when the time is right.
> 
> Though don’t expect to see mass produced ICBMs. These missiles are to be the future of an Iranian nuclear deterrent.
> 
> Iran is waiting for Saudi Arabia or Turkey to go nuclear to provide that pretext.



well 2_3 years dose not matter when the engines that we are talking about are the same engines

yes 2000 km range is a joke just for EU it means noting more.

no one knows what Iran is up to these days they very well could go for mass production if they think its absolute necessity, but in general i agree.


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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155025440089739265


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## Sineva

Interesting picture of one of the single missile fateh tels now with 4 axles just like the twin missile tel,probably to allow for the length increases in the zulfiqar and dezful.

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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> Interesting picture of one of the single missile fateh tels now with 4 axles just like the twin missile tel,probably to allow for the length increases in the zulfiqar and dezful.


well you are right as that missile is indeed Dezful missile with 1000 KM range . alot bigger then Zolfaghar missile.


zolfaghar

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## PeeD

The little wonder with the Dezful is that it has the almost the same size as the Zolfagar with the same explosive power against soft targets as the Zolfaghar.

The Zolfaghar in turn is also a little wonder, it's just 25-30% heavier than the Fatah series while having more than twice the range.

Dezful can achieve that via optimization and a FAE warhead.

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## arashkamangir

PeeD said:


> The little wonder with the Dezful is that it has the almost the same size as the Zolfagar with the same explosive power against soft targets as the Zolfaghar.
> 
> The Zolfaghar in turn is also a little wonder, it's just 25-30% heavier than the Fatah series while having more than twice the range.
> 
> Dezful can achieve that via optimization and a FAE warhead.




@PeeD Are Dezful and Zolfaghar single or double stage missiles?

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## PeeD

arashkamangir said:


> @PeeD Are Dezful and Zolfaghar single or double stage missiles?



They have a separating "MaRV" which actually is not re-entering as it remains within the edge of the atmosphere. One can call it a hypersonic weapon if desired.

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## arashkamangir

PeeD said:


> They have a separating "MaRV" which actually is not re-entering as it remains within the edge of the atmosphere. One can call it a hypersonic weapon if desired.




Thanks 
Since you brought it up, what would be a good platform for Iran to develop its hypersonic missiles? I think an early to use air launched system such as Kinzhal is not an option for Iran as I do not believe we have a platform to launch such a heavy missile. I was thinking if we had a the platform, maybe a modified Fateh based system could give us a battlefield ready hypersonic air to surface system.

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## PeeD

The Dezful and Zolfaghars can already be called hypersonic weapons, their speed is mach 8-10.

However real hypersonic weapons add to that extensive thermal shielding for body-lift effect as well as lower altitudes and somewhat higher terminal speeds. Plus they aim to have a ram- or screamjet to enable sustained body lifting/gliding.
The ultimate goal are higher range/payload capabilities by lifting body "wave riding" than a ideal ballistic trajectory would allow. The Russian Rubezh project with Avangard HGV has the potential to enable a extremely compact ICBM.
A <20 ton, 10m long depressed trajectory HGV ICBM would be a nightmare to track or kill, launcher and HGV.

It does not look like gliding plays a notable role in the Dezful cruise phase for achieving 1000km but one can imagine that the next system of the family may does gliding to achieve even higher range or allow for heavier payload.
I'm quite certain that the Zolfaghar/Dezful platform may further grow to get a real HGV. It will likely avoid having a screamjet sustainer.
After that of course up scaling it to a ultra-compact ICBM ranged weapon would be the final goal.

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## Mithridates

guys it may look like an irrelevant issue but is there any possibility to use aerogel as a heat insulator (in a possible hyper sonic low flying missile)??






also aerogel has a powerful structure meaning it can (possibly) resist against pressure (if used as a heat shield):






also i think it has some uses in making plane structure to strengthening honeycomb sandwiches and by that drastically decreasing the empty weight and resulting in better thrust/weight ratio, combat radius and max payload weight.
our scientists should really look at it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel

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## Sineva

Sineva said:


> Interesting picture of one of the single missile fateh tels now with 4 axles just like the twin missile tel,probably to allow for the length increases in the zulfiqar and dezful.







Another pic of the new 4 axle single launcher TEL.

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## mohsen

One of interesting stuff in kowsartrading website was this decoy warhead which is released along the real warhead, up to 4 decoys can be placed in each missile. It will literally f@ck up any anti ballistic missile system.






P.S.
Maybe that's why Saudis fired 5 Patriot missiles to intercept one Yemeni missile.

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## AmirPatriot

mohsen said:


> One of interesting stuff in kowsartrading website was this decoy warhead which is released along the real warhead, up to 4 decoys can be placed in each missile. It will literally f@ck up any anti ballistic missile system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.
> Maybe that's why Saudis fired 5 Patriot missiles to intercept one Yemeni missile.



@PeeD 

This is a Fateh-style *inflatable* decoy warhead and is called Anvar-110. All Iran's more advanced Fateh-type missiles will probably have these. Saudis have no chance, their ABM stocks would be expended very quickly.

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## PeeD

Yes these are for Emad, Khorramshahr and MaRV'ed Sejil.

Probably before separation a chaff cloud is released around the missile, and simultaneously decoys and separation takes place.
Once chaff cloud density decreases there are 5 or more slowly diverging RV-looking targets for the ABM systems radar.

The create confusion and kinetic energy loss effects for endo-atmospheric ABM systems such as Arrow-2 and Patriot.
With exo-atmoxpheric systems like THAAD and Arrow-3, they represent a serious problem if thermal signature is also mimicked. 
Same for mid-course systems such as SM-3.

However they are no credible targets anymore once re-entering takes place and endo-atmospheric regime starts. They also can't be used effectively with depressed trajectory and quasi ballistic systems of the Fateh family.

Honestly I expected such decoys already in 2009 when Sejil was presented.

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## PeeD

Here is a U.S video on such decoys and that development of it is quite difficult:

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## arashkamangir

PeeD said:


> Here is a U.S video on such decoys and that development of it is quite difficult:



That was fantastic thanks for sharing.

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156219225633153024

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## skyshadow

*

CEP= 10 M*

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## GWXP

TheImmortal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156219225633153024


Full report...
Hezbollah’s Precision Missile Project
http://www.bicom.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Precision-Project-Paper.pdf

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## PeeD

10m for a re-entering ballistic missile means destruction of hardened targets with a single shot.
It also means a very potent INS system has been developed.
I said previously here (light ICBM post) that pin-point accuracy requires an astro-navigation system for Khorramshahr-2 and a future pin-point strike ICBM, which may prove wrong.

The INS system seems to be so accurate by now, that it delivers the missile on exactly the right course. Then after separation of the MaRV, a very high G hardened accelerometer based wind correction (and random maneuvering) systems brings the MaRV to the target within 10m CEP. This is tremendous, as the Pershing-II needed a radar based terminal navigation system to guide its MaRV to (officially) 30m.

Now beside this Qiam variant, also the Ghadr or even Shahab-3 arsenal are upgraded to this pin-point strike capability.
This is nothing else than freighting for any enemy in Irans neighborhood.

As G hardening of the MaRV wind-correction and evasion system improves, as well as the fin steering system and thermal shielding, longer range rated MaRV will become possible.
Chinese equip their IRBMs with MaRVs with terminal guidance.

The INS system is no bottleneck of accuracy anymore for Iran anymore. If the Qiam INS achieves this, the same can also be used on a MaRV'ed ICBM.

We saw for the first time, what looked like <50m CEP in the Khorramshahr-2 test, but this is the first official number from Iran on the accuracy of this new generation of MaRV's.
Gen. Hajizadehs assigned project from the Leader can be hence called complete: Time to concentrate on booster/TVC and thermal shielding.

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## PeeD

Still, let me stress that a mid-course INS fixing via GPS or more robust astro-navigation is what state of the art technology dictates.

We can hope that no GPS or Glonass is used and the most robust fixing method would be astro-nav.
Alone managing a 850km range BM to 10m CEP would require highest grade gyroscopes.
2000km of the Khorramshahr-2 would be beyond state of the art, in any way affordable gyroscope technology.

So either Iran has achieved an affordable technology on gyroscopes that would be a breakthrough. Or a robust solution like astro-nav for longer ranged systems beyond acceptable gyroscope drift levels. Or less robust solutions like GPS or radio position update.

Anyway even if the Qiam INS drift levels would result in 10m CEP at 850km it would speak much about the quality of technology Iran has achieved.

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## skyshadow

*IRAN’S missile tests last week have sent shockwaves through the Western world over the state and capability of their secretive ballistic missile sites.*


*https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...world-war-3-donald-trump-us-rouhani-putin-spt*

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## Arminkh

TheImmortal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156219225633153024


Do these guys live in the past? CEP of 100m??!! Didn't they see what Iran did to Kurdish terrorists headquarters?

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> *IRAN’S missile tests last week have sent shockwaves through the Western world over the state and capability of their secretive ballistic missile sites.*
> 
> 
> *https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...world-war-3-donald-trump-us-rouhani-putin-spt*



Please do not quote sensationalist tabloids like Express.

They are creating headlines for clicks not accuracy.

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## TruthHurtz

Why is British tabloid media so pervasive and garbage? Can't go a day without seeing fake alien invasion or mayan/biblical doomsday articles.

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## Sineva

This is interesting,the us is tearing up the inf treaty which was the backbone of late cold war arms control

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/01/world/europe/inf-treaty.html?module=inline

There could be both advantages and disadvantages for iran in this.
The advantage is that it would become even more difficult from an international political perspective for the us to demand concessions from iran over the size and capability of its missile forces,it would also likely mean that the mtcr is dead along with the imf and this would likely make it easier for iran to both acquire new missile technologies as well as potentially sell its own.The down side is that the restriction on the sales of certain western weapons such as cruise missiles with certain ranges may no longer be in effect and we may also start to see the us and western nations start to develop their own conventional short,medium and intermediate ranged missiles and possibly even offer these for sale as well.
I think that in light of this increasingly iran needs to very seriously look at developing an indigenous abm capability to compliment its new integrated air defence network.

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## yavar

Yemen Ansarullah ballistic missile Burkan_3 MRBM strike Saudi military base the far-eastern Dammam City 01/08/2019
al-Sharqiya district (east of Saudi Arabia) on the Persian Gulf coast
https://www.yemenpress.org/yemen/yemeni-missiles-hit-a-military-target-in-dammam

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## PeeD

1200km for a Scud variant is a huge jump. Borkan-3 is Qiam based and hence already much improved from the Scud

How was a jump from the 850km Qiam (first version 700km) achieved?

Via two changes if you ask me: The missile is visibly ~1,5m elongated.
The warhead has likely been reduced from 650kg down to something around 300-400kg.

The first method creates only minor negative CoG shift.
But a warhead as light would cause the same problem longer ranged Iraqi Scud modifications experienced CoG caused instability.
One method to avoid that would be a instant separation of the warhead as thrust is terminated.
This is not a easy task with the Scud. It requires testing, skill and likely additional subsystems like a retro-rocket system.

So building a Borkan-3 is absolutely not a easy task. The elongated Iraqi Scuds also had 300-400kg warheads but little more only half the range. Achieving 100%-80% higher performance on a BM using the same motor speaks volumes about the level Iranian missile optimization has reached by now.
Switching to aluminum alloy instead of Original Soviet steel design enabled the Shahab-2 and North Korean -C variant. Further optimization lead to Qiam, North Koreans went for elongation that lead to -D variant.
But only the already optimized Qiam design + elongation + reduced (and CoG stabile) warhead, allowed to create the 1200km Borkan-3.
Now all Saudi oil infrastructure is at risk by basically modifying a North Korean Scud-C.

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## mohsen

yavar said:


> Yemen Ansarullah ballistic missile Burkan_3 MRBM strike Saudi military base the far-eastern Dammam City 01/08/2019
> al-Sharqiya district (east of Saudi Arabia) on the Persian Gulf coast
> https://www.yemenpress.org/yemen/yemeni-missiles-hit-a-military-target-in-dammam


And hit it's target Accurately.

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> And hit it's target Accurately.



Proof?

Satellite imagery?


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## Dexon

TheImmortal said:


> Proof?
> 
> Satellite imagery?

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## Hack-Hook

Dexon said:


>


Now they claim it was a flash flood

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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> Now they claim it was a flash flood



I’m sorry this doesn’t look like a military base in any sense. It looks like a junkyard.

No perimeter, no geometric outline, no defenses, no segregation. Random (tents?) everywhere.

Houthis wasted a Missile on this?

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## mohsen

TheImmortal said:


> I’m sorry this doesn’t look like a military base in any sense. It looks like a junkyard.
> 
> No perimeter, no geometric outline, no defenses, no segregation. Random (tents?) everywhere.
> 
> Houthis wasted a Missile on this?


And what they were training in those tents? Camels?!

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> And what they were training in those tents? Camels?!



No professional military on Earth, has such a disarray military base. The tents are all over the place with no rhyme or reason let alone in a vertical order.

It looks a garbage dump.

Show me an actual military base. Not nonsense pictures of desert dweller camps.

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> No professional military on Earth, has such a disarray military base. The tents are all over the place with no rhyme or reason let alone in a vertical order.
> 
> It looks a garbage dump.
> 
> Show me an actual military base. Not nonsense pictures of desert dweller camps.


Well that's not a professional military base . it's a cannon fodder training base . they wont care about them they are just low quality mercenaries to increase the numbers .

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## SubWater

Dexon said:


>


That is Sudanese camp in Najran, not Damam.
There is not any proof yet about Damam attack.

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## PeeD

The CEP value for the MaRV-Qiam still puzzles me...
Hajizadeh said years ago that they managed to bring CEP down to <10m.
However I always thought he talks about the Khalije Fars or later the Hormoz series or a year ago the Fateh Mobin.

The Fateh-G2 shots against Kurdish seperstist targets would be a peace-time secondary GPS guidance channel.

Then we saw the hit by the Khorramshahr-2, which could have been a lucky 50m CEP shot.

But now showing the MaRV-Qiam with a claimed CEP of 10m is a complete technological shock.
Best and most expensive U.S. 80's cold war technology used an active radar seeker and still only managed >30m.
Trident II, maybe the best ICBM in the world manages 130m at intercontinental range.

I tried to describe all of this in my two previous posts here.

I have reached a explanation for now: The Qiam was a revolutionary breakthrough for Iran and for a good reason it was one of the projects of Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam, a liquid one.
The reason it had no fins was that Iran had managed to produce a very precise INS, likely with a state of the art MEMS based accelerometer and new high precision IFOG gyroscopes. All in a cost effective strap-down configuration.
The resulting system was sensitive and stabile enough to avoid the use of fins on such a light missile.
But the real advantage was that this was the masterpiece of an affordable INS that managed to remain stabile for 1,5 minutes. Those 1,5 minutes would be enough to get the Qiam into space on the right +- 1-5m trajectory, without any physical force other than gravitation affecting it.
The CEP for this Qiam-1 only increased due to boost termination delay and the re-entry phase, getting it into the 130-150m CEP range.
The MaRVed Qiam changed this: The same accelerometer technology that made the Qiam INS so precise was now improved to endure the high G forces occurring during re-entry.
Boost termination error correction and primary: wind-correction system, then enables those accelerometers to correct the 130m error to just 10m.

I thought about astro-nav for the Khorramshahr-2 as a more expensive long range system, in which it would easily fit. But then realized that this system makes primarily sense for a MARV-bus that operates for several minutes. Without MARV-bus, it has nowhere been demonstrated but could be possible that the Iranian INS is precise enough to enable such a results.
The only other option, would be the easy, fragile route: GPS. Here I'm confident enough that it is not used as primary navigation system.
Even Irans wind corrected Zelzal-2 variant Raad 307, as a cheap low-priority system still uses an accelerometer based internal system as primary guidance.

The stress on the MaRV guidance system increases as range goes up: Khorramshahr-2 likely already has its accelerometers be exposed to tens of Gs.
Now the same Qiam based MaRV is re-equipped for the Ghadr and Shahab-3 series, which likely would have the same 10m CEP.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> The CEP value for the MaRV-Qiam still puzzles me...
> Hajizadeh said years ago that they managed to bring CEP down to <10m.
> However I always thought he talks about the Khalije Fars or later the Hormoz series or a year ago the Fateh Mobin.
> 
> The Fateh-G2 shots against Kurdish seperstist targets would be a peace-time secondary GPS guidance channel.
> 
> Then we saw the hit by the Khorramshahr-2, which could have been a lucky 50m CEP shot.
> 
> But now showing the MaRV-Qiam with a claimed CEP of 10m is a complete technological shock.
> Best and most expensive U.S. 80's cold war technology used an active radar seeker and still only managed >30m.
> Trident II, maybe the best ICBM in the world manages 130m at intercontinental range.
> 
> I tried to describe all of this in my two previous posts here.
> 
> I have reached a explanation for now: The Qiam was a revolutionary breakthrough for Iran and for a good reason it was one of the projects of Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam, a liquid one.
> The reason it had no fins was that Iran had managed to produce a very precise INS, likely with a state of the art MEMS based accelerometer and new high precision IFOG gyroscopes. All in a cost effective strap-down configuration.
> The resulting system was sensitive and stabile enough to avoid the use of fins on such a light missile.
> But the real advantage was that this was the masterpiece of an affordable INS that managed to remain stabile for 1,5 minutes. Those 1,5 minutes would be enough to get the Qiam into space on the right +- 1-5m trajectory, without any physical force other than gravitation affecting it.
> The CEP for this Qiam-1 only increased due to boost termination delay and the re-entry phase, getting it into the 130-150m CEP range.
> The MaRVed Qiam changed this: The same accelerometer technology that made the Qiam INS so precise was now improved to endure the high G forces occurring during re-entry.
> Boost termination error correction and primary: wind-correction system, then enables those accelerometers to correct the 130m error to just 10m.
> 
> I thought about astro-nav for the Khorramshahr-2 as a more expensive long range system, in which it would easily fit. But then realized that this system makes primarily sense for a MARV-bus that operates for several minutes. Without MARV-bus, it has nowhere been demonstrated but could be possible that the Iranian INS is precise enough to enable such a results.
> The only other option, would be the easy, fragile route: GPS. Here I'm confident enough that it is not used as primary navigation system.
> Even Irans wind corrected Zelzal-2 variant Raad 307, as a cheap low-priority system still uses an accelerometer based internal system as primary guidance.
> 
> The stress on the MaRV guidance system increases as range goes up: Khorramshahr-2 likely already has its accelerometers be exposed to tens of Gs.
> Now the same Qiam based MaRV is re-equipped for the Ghadr and Shahab-3 series, which likely would have the same 10m CEP.



Have you thought maybe just maybe, they don’t have 10m CEP?

Also comparing Iran’s conventional warheads to Trident II is apples to oranges. When an ICBM is carrying a nuclear warhead, then CEP <250m is sufficient. The warhead could land 1KM off target and still annihilate the target.

So Nuclear powers don’t need pinpoint accuracy for their BM arsenal.

I don’t think any of Iran’s MRBMs have 10M CEP, I think CEP is still 25m-100M without GPS assist. 

Fateh derivatives with active seekers (ex Mobin) Maybe able to achieve <25M.

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## Myself

PeeD said:


> 1200km for a Scud variant is a huge jump. Borkan-3 is Qiam based and hence already much improved from the Scud
> 
> How was a jump from the 850km Qiam (first version 700km) achieved?


You assume a claimed value is correct, and you start to justify it, which is a very weird approach. Also, please remember they have started putting the fins back, but smaller ones.


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## Ich

TheImmortal said:


> Have you thought maybe just maybe, they don’t have 10m CEP?
> 
> Also comparing Iran’s conventional warheads to Trident II is apples to oranges. When an ICBM is carrying a nuclear warhead, then CEP <250m is sufficient. The warhead could land 1KM off target and still annihilate the target.
> 
> So Nuclear powers don’t need pinpoint accuracy for their BM arsenal.
> 
> I don’t think any of Iran’s MRBMs have 10M CEP, I think CEP is still 25m-100M without GPS assist.
> 
> Fateh derivatives with active seekers (ex Mobin) Maybe able to achieve <25M.



Iran uses Land based Positioning System. The start in the early 2000 for scientific purpose and in 2016 they go for a military LPS. So CEP of 10 m should be possible in the middle east (not greater east) for Iran.

https://www.geospatialworld.net/article/iranian-permanent-gps-network-strategy-and-processing/

https://rntfnd.org/2016/06/03/iran-developing-homegrown-alternative-to-gps-probably-loran/

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## TheImmortal

Myself said:


> You assume a claimed value is correct, and you start to justify it, which is a very weird approach. Also, please remember they have started putting the fins back, but smaller ones.



If an Iranian official tomorrow claims that Iran’s BMs have a CEP of 12 feet. @PeeD would take it as correct and start building his thesis around that.

Iran, Russia, US, etc. any country in the world exaggerating facts about its military capabilities. 

The missile attacks on ISIS and Kurdistan, show Iran’s missiles can achieve accuracy. But they also show that Iran’s Missiles have problems with accuracy.

I am skeptical of this pinpoint accuracy.

Also the fact that Houthi’s launched this missile and there has yet to be a satellite photos shows either the missile probably missed or was intercepted. 

Please remember the 2015 Ma’rib Tochka Missile attack that the Houthi’s used to score a direct hit on a small military forward base being used by Saudi and UAE. 

1 Missile = direct hit = complete destruction

Yet Tochka-A has a CEP of 150m+ and Tochka-B with GPS and Radar/Optical terminal correction system brings CEP to 75-100M.

My point? It is highly unlikely Iranian missiles have a CEP of 10M. And any evidence showing an Iranian Missile scoring a direct hit doesn’t mean CEP <20M. As Houthi Missile attacked showed, pinpoint accuracy can happen even with BMs that have 75m+

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## PeeD

You both are free to doubt it and I still do so too. My experience with IRGC capabilities tells me that the 10m CEP is most likely true.
It can be faked and only lucky hits of a 150m CEP missile being shown hitting the camera (Khorramshahr-2) or a tent (MaRV'ed Qiam).

As a Iranian I take Iranian claims and try to technically analyze and explain them. I expressed my doubts by saying something like this has never been achieved by any country and published openly.
Its sure true that nuclear warheads do not require such accuracy's, however lower yields and lighter warheads can be realized if the accuracy is so high (silo killing). The reason was rather that it as not technically feasible at and affordable cost for ICBMs and still not technically feasible without (and even with) terminal guidance corrections for a late cold war system like the Pershing II.

Ground based GPS is the most fragile method but and indigenous one. Could replace GPS effectively for peace-time operation against a country without high capability. Something Fateh series of older generation could use for pin-point accuracy.
As also mentioned, ground Radar correction is another method of the more fragile kind.
Basically anything that needs external input can be regarded as fragile. Button must be pushed and only physical destruction able to stop it hitting the right point (especially necessary in a nuclear war).

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## PeeD

Myself said:


> Also, please remember they have started putting the fins back, but smaller ones.



That's an aerodynamic issue with having a MaRV with fins: The aerodynamic instability caused by such canards would cause the TVC system to engage constantly to correct the instability. A TVC vane system that constantly works will create more drag and be ultimately the cause for lower efficiency that leads to lower range.
So the INS is sufficiently high grade to do so since the Qiam but its not worth to sacrifice range/payload for it.

It would make sense for a missile with gimballed nozzle TVC: There the corrections would not lower efficiency. That's why Khorramshahr-2 or DF-21C have no aft fins but MaRV fins.

Qiam was in essence a proof of concept there for INS quality level and canister/silo launch potential.
Remember this is no joke: North Koreans still needed fins for their HS-10 Khorramshahr equivalent. Their lighter PKG-1/2 missiles still also require fins.

I don't want to promote the Qiam INS too much and I still can't explain the accuracy levels claimed, but I try to find an explanation.

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1157916177529749504

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## skyshadow

*guys IRGC is going full hypersonic on UCAVs and Missiles development and its Navy these are really big news coming from IRGC.*



*General: Iran Extending Range of Missiles*


*The range of Iranian missiles are increasing constantly to counter the regional and extra-regional threats, a ranking military commander said.*


https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2019/08/05/2069234/general-iran-extending-range-of-missiles

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## AmirPatriot

There's a twitter thread here (click on it, more tweets with more info below it!) with details about the Hera target missile which is used to simulate ballistic missiles for PAC-3 and THAAD to test against.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1159071716448120833
@PeeD

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## skyshadow



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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


>





@PeeD in here, isn't the entire missile's body visible? I thought the guided warhead for Hormoz would split for increased maneuverability.

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## skyshadow

for any body that is interested, Hormoz 1 missile can reach an speed of more then mach 1 in almost 6-7 seconds you can see the missile reaching mach one speed in below video at exactly 0:46 - 0:47, enjoy

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## PeeD

arashkamangir said:


> @PeeD in here, isn't the entire missile's body visible? I thought the guided warhead for Hormoz would split for increased maneuverability.



Only the higher cost Zolfaghar and Dezful have separable warheads/MaRV.
The more tactical Fateh family comes down complete.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> That's an aerodynamic issue with having a MaRV with fins: The aerodynamic instability caused by such canards would cause the TVC system to engage constantly to correct the instability. A TVC vane system that constantly works will create more drag and be ultimately the cause for lower efficiency that leads to lower range.
> So the INS is sufficiently high grade to do so since the Qiam but its not worth to sacrifice range/payload for it.
> 
> It would make sense for a missile with gimballed nozzle TVC: There the corrections would not lower efficiency. That's why Khorramshahr-2 or DF-21C have no aft fins but MaRV fins.
> 
> Qiam was in essence a proof of concept there for INS quality level and canister/silo launch potential.
> Remember this is no joke: North Koreans still needed fins for their HS-10 Khorramshahr equivalent. Their lighter PKG-1/2 missiles still also require fins.
> 
> I don't want to promote the Qiam INS too much and I still can't explain the accuracy levels claimed, but I try to find an explanation.



@PeeD PLZ look at the this video from 2:23 to 2:35 and then look at the video that is playing in background i think i find a secret missile or weapon its looks some how that it uses cooled launch system but not exactly, as it has a small ejection booster and it has a very good speed it looks supersonic for sure, and its being fired vertical, it seems to me like an air defense missile but i do not know what it is so i would love to hear your thoughts on that.

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## Draco.IMF

skyshadow said:


> @PeeD PLZ look at the this video from 2:23 to 2:35 and then look at the video that is playing in background i think i find a secret missile or weapon its looks some how that it uses cooled launch system but not exactly, as it has a small ejection booster and it has a very good speed it looks supersonic for sure, and its being fired vertical, it seems to me like an air defense missile but i do not know what it is so i would love to hear your thoughts on that.



interesting find, indeed

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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> interesting find, indeed


thank bro, as always love to hear everyone's analysis on that.


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## PeeD

A Nazeat or Zelzal-1 if i'm not missing it.

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> @PeeD PLZ look at the this video from 2:23 to 2:35 and then look at the video that is playing in background i think i find a secret missile or weapon its looks some how that it uses cooled launch system but not exactly, as it has a small ejection booster and it has a very good speed it looks supersonic for sure, and its being fired vertical, it seems to me like an air defense missile but i do not know what it is so i would love to hear your thoughts on that.


i think at 2:37 we have the lunch footage of that missile(which has been shown from 2:23 to 2:35)but in another angle........the footage shows that missile is zelzal or nazeat and just because of the sun's light the smoke of the missile is not so clear and it seems in first 2 or 3 sec of the lunch there is no fume.........

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## skyshadow

*

Ghadr missiles 

























*

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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


> *
> Ghadr missiles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



maybe it was this that was tested couple of weeks back?

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## skyshadow

arashkamangir said:


> maybe it was this that was tested couple of weeks back?


i do not know maybe but US said it was *Shahab 3* and this is *Ghadr H* if im not wrong but as we know US dose not know anything so it can very well be the missile that was tested.

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## Myself

arashkamangir said:


> maybe it was this that was tested couple of weeks back?


No it is not! That one was fired from south of the country towards north (they said around Tehran state) to evaluate the performance of something, most likely Bavar 373. Definitely that Missile was not armed with a real warhead; otherwise it did not make any sense to put a huge population at risk in case that test would go wrong.

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1162115880219815936

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## yavar




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## yavar

*Lebanon Hezbollah TV air mobile (Truck) Naval cruise missile launcher لبنان تلویزیون حزب الله سکوی پرتاب موشک کروز دریایی*

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## skyshadow

new Iranian missile launch with new warhead.

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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


> new Iranian missile launch with new warhead.
> 
> 
> View attachment 575641
> View attachment 575642




It looks like Emaad's warhead to my eyes.

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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> new Iranian missile launch with new warhead.
> 
> 
> View attachment 575641
> View attachment 575642


Do you have a link/source for this info? Too much news to keep up with!

Could be a test of Ghadr/Shahab-3 with Emad-style warhead maybe?


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## skyshadow

arashkamangir said:


> It looks like Emaad's warhead to my eyes.





Battle of Waterloo said:


> Do you have a link/source for this info? Too much news to keep up with!
> 
> Could be a test of Ghadr/Shahab-3 with Emad-style warhead maybe?





Could be Emad with better warhead

https://www.telewebion.com/episode/2092650

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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> Could be Emad with better warhead
> 
> https://www.telewebion.com/episode/2092650


Khorramshahr at the end is the real star

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## skyshadow

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Khorramshahr at the end is the real star


yah it is

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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


> yah it is



of course

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## skyshadow

i think Iran may have tested the *Qhaem SLV* ( or an other new missile ) successfully yesterday  congratulations to all of my brothers.



"And yesterday was one of the successful days for this nation," he said, without providing more information about the missile.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...tionary-guards-commander-190824083607731.html

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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> i think Iran may have tested the *Qhaem SLV* ( or an other new missile ) successfully yesterday  congratulations to all of my brothers.
> 
> 
> 
> "And yesterday was one of the successful days for this nation," he said, without providing more information about the missile.
> 
> 
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...tionary-guards-commander-190824083607731.html


How they tease us...

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## arashkamangir

Battle of Waterloo said:


> How they tease us...



Oh boy, can't wait to see a footage five years from now... Just look at how long it took them show the Khorramshar testing footage which was from freaking 2012...

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## skyshadow

Battle of Waterloo said:


> How they tease us...


exactly 




arashkamangir said:


> Oh boy, can't wait to see a footage five years from now... Just look at how long it took them show the Khorramshar testing footage which was from freaking 2012...



no do not say that.

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## Shams313

Iranian commanders: we have a lot of secret yet to be unveiled...

..... meanwhile Iranian members in pdf.....
.... 

And me: ...

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## TheImmortal

It might be related to a new class of pinpoint accurate short range BMs.

Another commander had commented on that said they have developed new missiles with exceptional accuracy although their range is short.

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## arashkamangir

TheImmortal said:


> It might be related to a new class of pinpoint accurate short range BMs.
> 
> Another commander had commented on that said they have developed new missiles with exceptional accuracy although their range is short.



Well it could be but since we have recently seen evidence of static tests of giant f**king solid fuel booster, it might be Ghaem...

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## TheImmortal

arashkamangir said:


> Well it could be but since we have recently seen evidence ofs test of giant f**king solid fuel booster, it might be Ghaem...



Ghaem’s launch would be picked up by many spy satellites. US would instantly use it as a propaganda piece.

If it was Ghaem SLV it would be launched From imam khomeini and would have a NOTAM issued.

So we will have to wait for more confirmation.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> Ghaem’s launch would be picked up by many spy satellites. US would instantly use it as a propaganda piece.
> 
> If it was Ghaem SLV it would be launched From imam khomeini and would have a NOTAM issued.
> 
> So we will have to wait for more confirmation.



yes Qhaem is big but you know what else is big ? Simorgh, but no one picked that one up either. they could have launched it at night too.

and IRGC dose not just give congratulations for every thing its most big a really big achievement

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## skyshadow



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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


>


What is this? Fresh solid fuel engine test?


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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165777033819041792


Battle of Waterloo said:


> What is this? Fresh solid fuel engine test?



yes its Fresh


more like a solid fuel engine that can power one big ICBM like minuteman iii missile with 14000 KM range.

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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> yes its Fresh
> 
> more like a solid fuel engine that can power one big ICBM like minuteman iii missile with 14000 KM range.


did you get it from this tweet or somewhere else?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164561952892477441


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## skyshadow

Battle of Waterloo said:


> did you get it from this tweet or somewhere else?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164561952892477441



no what i mentioned in my post was said by a US missile analysis they said the burn scars are from a engine that can power a missile like minuteman iii ICBM *( Qhaem SLV ).


" the rocket motors could provide enough thrust for a missile that could cross between continents, slightly less powerful than the US Minuteman III ICBM, which can carry nuclear weapons. "


https://qz.com/1286633/planet-satellite-images-exposed-irans-secret-rocket-program/*

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## Draco.IMF

New iranian cruise missile: "Mobin". 
Maximum Range: 450km; 
Weight:670kg; 
Warhead:120kg

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## Ich

So in less than 30 minutes all AD-points on the other side of the persian gulf are gone.

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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> no what i mentioned in my post was said by a US missile analysis they said the burn scars are from a engine that can power a missile like minuteman iii ICBM *( Qhaem SLV ).*


I meant where did you get that picture showing new engine test? I cannot find it anywhere!


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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> New iranian cruise missile: "Mobin".
> Maximum Range: 450km;
> Weight:670kg;
> Warhead:120kg




stealth cruise missile it has the B-2 RCS.


stealthy cruise missiles, could approach air defenses to within 108 km before being detected. If such missiles traveled at a speed of 805 km per hour (500 miles per hour), air defenses would have only eight minutes to engage and destroy the stealthy missile and 17 minutes for the nonstealthy missile. Furthermore, a low-observable LACM can be difficult to engage and destroy, even if detected. Cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2 or smaller are difficult for surface-to-air missile (SAM) fire-control radars to track. Consequently, even if a SAM battery detects the missile, it may not acquire a sufficient lock on the target to complete the intercept.



Battle of Waterloo said:


> I meant where did you get that picture showing new engine test? I cannot find it anywhere!


oh yes from that post you showed me

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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> stealth cruise missile it has the B-2 RCS.
> 
> stealthy cruise missiles, could approach air defenses to within 108 km before being detected. If such missiles traveled at a speed of 805 km per hour (500 miles per hour), air defenses would have only eight minutes to engage and destroy the stealthy missile and 17 minutes for the nonstealthy missile. Furthermore, a low-observable LACM can be difficult to engage and destroy, even if detected. Cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2 or smaller are difficult for surface-to-air missile (SAM) fire-control radars to track. Consequently, even if a SAM battery detects the missile, it may not acquire a sufficient lock on the target to complete the intercept.
> 
> oh yes from that post you showed me


Tomahawk has 0.5m2 RCS (but is 2x weight/size, but similar speed around 0.7 mach). 

I can't find that image anywhere else, so I'm not sure about it...

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## Mithridates

skyshadow said:


> stealth cruise missile it has the B-2 RCS.
> 
> 
> stealthy cruise missiles, could approach air defenses to within 108 km before being detected. If such missiles traveled at a speed of 805 km per hour (500 miles per hour), air defenses would have only eight minutes to engage and destroy the stealthy missile and 17 minutes for the nonstealthy missile. Furthermore, a low-observable LACM can be difficult to engage and destroy, even if detected. Cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2 or smaller are difficult for surface-to-air missile (SAM) fire-control radars to track. Consequently, even if a SAM battery detects the missile, it may not acquire a sufficient lock on the target to complete the intercept.
> 
> 
> oh yes from that post you showed me


also these missiles fly low so it will make it even harder to counter them.

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## skyshadow

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Tomahawk has 0.5m2 RCS (but is 2x weight/size, but similar speed around 0.7 mach).
> 
> I can't find that image anywhere else, so I'm not sure about it...



well its our first try no harm, and yes grater speeds gives less time to engage and destroy the stealth missile.

burn marks are there from 2017 too. here







@PeeD bro why the top burn mark is going to right do you see the angle too? it was not there from 2017 so its a new engine maybe?









Mithridates said:


> also these missiles fly low so it will make it even harder to counter them.



indeed but what is more interesting is that with what materials did we built it and can we use it in Qaher-313 for if this or this is the same materials?

*Mobin cruise missile*








*MAKS 2019 Russia Exhibition*


here you can see pictures of the Fotras, Ababil-3, Mohajer-6 drones and the Mobin Cruise missile in Iran's booth at the MAKS 2019 Russia Exhibition.

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/987599/فیلم-پهپادهای-ایرانی-حاضر-در-نمایشگاه-ماکس-2019

https://www.telexiran.com/ویدیو/اخبار-ویدیویی/فناوری/آغاز-به-کار-نمایشگاه-هوایی-روسیه

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## Arminkh

Draco.IMF said:


> New iranian cruise missile: "Mobin".
> Maximum Range: 450km;
> Weight:670kg;
> Warhead:120kg


450Km is the minimum range based on 10m altitude. It probably can go beyond that if released by another airplane at higher altitude.

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## skyshadow

https://www.irna.ir/news/83454125/پهپاد-جدید-ایران-با-نام-مبین-در-روسیه-به-نمایش-درآمد


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## PeeD

Very nice design and RCS level for the Mobin, most notable feature: engine exhaust ist shielded by the two vertical stabilizers and from below too by the extended surface. No hot metal parts exposed except for a quite narrow angle.
Top engine intake also improves RCS against ground based radars.
So the Mobin not only is optimized against RF spectrum but special care was taken to rude IR spectrum too.

The release of it might be connected to Israel and Hezbollah.

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## AmirPatriot

Arminkh said:


> 450Km is the minimum range based on 10m altitude. It probably can go beyond that if released by another airplane at higher altitude.


Not sure how that would work with the air intake being top-mounted.

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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> @PeeD bro why the top burn mark is going to right do you see the angle too? it was not there from 2017 so its a new engine maybe?



Looks like an angle yes. Maybe the TVC system had a malfunction in that case or just a optical illusion.
TVC testing is one of the main goals of such tests. That's also a reason why so many are needed, beside vibration, fuel mixture/shaping and mechanical strength issues.

Glad to see TERCOM plus DSMAC confirmed in the Mobin from Iranian side... there was always some fear that they would trust in GPS due to the lack or those two. Its the basis for all other Iranian CMs.
I remember the IRIAF Kite system back in the days and although this almost certainly a ground launched system, the step from kite to Mobin is immense.
Israelis like their ground launched Delilah CMs with its miniature warheads, the Mobin joins that game.

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## mohsen

PeeD said:


> Very nice design and RCS level for the Mobin, most notable feature: engine exhaust ist shielded by the two vertical stabilizers and from below too by the extended surface. No hot metal parts exposed except for a quite narrow angle.
> Top engine intake also improves RCS against ground based radars.
> So the Mobin not only is optimized against RF spectrum but special care was taken to rude IR spectrum too.
> 
> The release of it might be connected to Israel and Hezbollah.


Many obvious design flaws, seems for export only!

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## PeeD

mohsen said:


> Many obvious design flaws, seems for export only!



In such expandable munitions things may appear as design flaws but are none because the low complexity of the system.
Low complexity and subsonic speeds allow for use of non-RF reflective/neutral composites and materials. These are then not according to "stealth laws" but create no RCS penalty, instead improve aerodynamics.
If it would be a more complex system, then maybe yes.

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## skyshadow



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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


>


?

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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


>



Iran is not hiding the exhaust pattern where as NASA is hidding it by mounting the exhaust at the top of a mountain hill slope.

Nvm, the exhaust is so big that I couldn't tell it from background.

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## skyshadow

Battle of Waterloo said:


> ?



you are looking at Shahrood engine test compared with the world’s most powerful rocket test

the burn marks tells you how big the engines are

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## Arminkh

AmirPatriot said:


> Not sure how that would work with the air intake being top-mounted.


Using a larger aircraft that has internal bays like this?









arashkamangir said:


> Iran is not hiding the exhaust pattern where as NASA is hidding it by mounting the exhaust at the top of a mountain hill slope.
> 
> Nvm, the exhaust is so big that I couldn't tell it from background.


I think at least at this stage, Iran likes to show off the burn marks.

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## Mithridates

mohsen said:


> Many obvious design flaws, seems for export only!


bro by looking at it with naked eyes you can't realize if it's flawed or not. we should see how it scatters the radar waves in unechoic chamber.

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## yavar



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## mohsen

PeeD said:


> In such expandable munitions things may appear as design flaws but are none because the low complexity of the system.
> Low complexity and subsonic speeds allow for use of non-RF reflective/neutral composites and materials. These are then not according to "stealth laws" but create no RCS penalty, instead improve aerodynamics.
> If it would be a more complex system, then maybe yes.


With 0.1 m^2 RCS?!

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## Ich

SpiritOfPersia said:


> What designs flaws are you talking about exactly?



Maybe the color...


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## AmirPatriot

Arminkh said:


> Using a larger aircraft that has internal bays like this?


Now if only Iran had one of those...

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## skyshadow

AmirPatriot said:


> Now if only Iran had one of those...

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## TheImmortal

AmirPatriot said:


> Now if only Iran had one of those...



That thing is a flying blimp. If Iran had one of those it be shot down without a sweat.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> That thing is a flying blimp. If Iran had one of those it be shot down without a sweat.


only its long range weapons can be its power point

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## Arminkh

AmirPatriot said:


> Now if only Iran had one of those...


Should be possible to turn a C-130 to have internal bays for cruise missiles.

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## arashkamangir

Arminkh said:


> Should be possible to turn a C-130 to have internal bays for cruise missiles.



or use on of the old 727s ...

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## Mithridates

AmirPatriot said:


> Now if only Iran had one of those...








i heard we have some retired Boeing 747s leaved in dust in some airport.

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## hussainb72

Arminkh said:


> Should be possible to turn a C-130 to have internal bays for cruise missiles.


Iran has already tested dropping bombs using the C-130, which means that the plane should be able to release the cruise missile the same way at high altitude, and then the missile would start its engine and then dive towards earth, gaining speed and lowering its altitude, then fly until it reaches its target.

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## Sineva

hussainb72 said:


> Iran has already tested dropping bombs using the C-130, which means that the plane should be able to release the cruise missile the same way at high altitude, and then the missile would start its engine and then dive towards earth, gaining speed and lowering its altitude, then fly until it reaches its target.
> View attachment 576409


I think fitting it with wing pylons would be an easier answer.







skyshadow said:


> *Mobin cruise missile*


Now that I look at it it kind of reminds me of an upside down Storm Shadow.

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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> I think fitting it with wing pylons would be an easier answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I look at it it kind of reminds me of an upside down Storm Shadow.


it really dose


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## hussainb72

Sineva said:


> I think fitting it with wing pylons would be an easier answer.



Well that can be done as well, but the C-130 might not be the best in this role, and I guess that the best platforms for launching the missile are either the F-4 or the su-24 as they can fly at high speeds and lunch them at high altitudes, and they can be mounted on the pylons, but the number they might be able to carry might be less than the C-130.

Edit: thinking about it more, I think that the F-14 can be a good option as well, as it can carry a huge number of bombs between the fuselage, but it will require a modification to the bomb racks the F-14 has.


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## Sineva

Heres one that gave me a good chuckle for obvious reasons

#####WARNING ZIONIST SOURCE#####

Opinion
*How Israel Can Deter Iran *

An all-out Iran offensive against Israel can be neutralized using a simple declaration of just one sentence

Hezbollah is said to have 130,000 rockets that could reach all of Israel, with Hamas possessing thousands of rockets that could cover southern and central Israel, including the Tel Aviv area. It is also said that, if war broke out, Israel could find itself fighting on two fronts, possibly even a third, the Golan Heights, where it would face an Iranian force made up of Revolutionary Guards and militias under Tehran’s control.

And in the next war, thousands of rockets would land on Israeli population centers, and on strategic assets including the Haifa Bay industrial complex, power stations on the Mediterranean coast, ammonia tanks and airports and who knows what else, not to mention military bases, including air bases. Such a barrage could seriously disrupt air force operations and possibly also the mobilization assembly points and armored columns, which at that point should be racing toward Beirut, the Syrian section of the Golan Heights and Gaza.

Israel’s anti-rocket capabilities, which include many Iron Dome batteries and a large supply of Arrow missiles, wouldn’t provide sufficient defense for the country’s cities and factories against such an onslaught. All this would happen on Iran’s orders, the moment Tehran decided that the conditions were right, perhaps in the not-so-distant future in a regional conflict or something that relates more directly to Israel and its efforts to prevent the spread of Iranian power around us.

The Israeli media says little about the chaos that would ensue for weeks or even months, even if the country’s road, train, electricity, water, sewage and natural gas infrastructure continued to function at some basic level, and even if the army pressed all the way to Beirut and Gaza’s cities and somehow routed Hezbollah and Hamas after fighting that exacted a heavy casualty toll and wreaked massive destruction.

But there may be a way to avert this scenario with one simple and blunt statement. The Israeli government should declare tomorrow, immediately, publicly and unequivocally, that if Iran’s proxies forced Israel into an all-out war, for any reason, with a massive rocket barrage, Israel would respond immediately and forcefully against Tehran, Isfahan, Shiraz, Bushehr, Natanz, Qom and Iran’s other population centers and strategic targets.


Iran would know that such a clear and powerful public statement would compel every Israeli government – regardless of who’s prime minister – to act on it (lest Israel be seen as a paper tiger and lose all its deterrent capability). Also, Iran would understand that it would pay dearly for an assault on Israel by its proxies. The fear of such a massive Israeli reprisal – hundreds of missiles and bombs on Iran’s cities and strategic assets for weeks – would make Iran’s leaders think very carefully about whether they should dispatch Hezbollah and Hamas and their proxies in Syria on any adventures.
So far, Iran has enjoyed immunity from attacks on its soil, with Israeli governments opting to respond to rockets from Lebanon and Gaza with (limited) strikes against targets in Lebanon, Gaza and Syria. This was a mistake that left Israel under a constant threat in the north and south, and led to a balance of deterrence – a balance that Tehran could nullify whenever it chose.

A clear and public announcement by Israel would probably deter Tehran from embarking on such an adventure. Critics would say: In response to an Israeli counterattack on Iran, Tehran would launch missiles on Israeli and possibly American targets in the Gulf – and in Iraq and Syria too. Maybe, but Israel’s ability to strike Iran is much greater than Iran’s ability to strike Israel, and that’s without considering Israel’s nonconventional capabilities. Israel’s anti-ballistic capabilities would probably neutralize the bulk of the missiles from Iran (which has a limited capability at the necessary range).


Nor does Iran have an air force that could come near Israel in any significant way. The regime of the ayatollahs, whose headquarters, factories and military would be bombed, would probably not be able to withstand such a contest for long, especially considering the regime’s unpopularity with everyday Iranians, which would certainly grow if the country’s major cities and factories were assaulted. And in such a conflict, there is no reason to believe that Tehran would wish to add the United States as an active combatant against it.

Thus, I believe that, using a simple declaration of just one sentence, the specter of an all-out offensive against Israel by Iran’s proxies and emissaries can be neutralized.

Would Hezbollah and Hamas launch their rocket arsenal at Israel without an order or approval from Tehran and against its will? This is hard to believe, as they need Tehran’s political, financial and military support, and as well fear that Israel would destroy neighborhoods in Gaza and Lebanon. In any event, Israel must act as if the signal for an attack on it would be given by Tehran, and Tehran must understand that this is how Israel would act. This would certainly prod Iran to rein in the neighboring fundamentalist Islamic groups, even should Hezbollah and Hamas think of going to war independently.

Israel should issue its warning to Tehran very loudly and clearly, and the sooner the better. Perhaps this will spare us the terrible war that many analysts predict is approaching.

_Prof. Benny Morris, a historian, is the author of a number of books including “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949.” _

*I think that this article illustrates the zionist mindset rather beautifully*

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## Mithridates

Sineva said:


> Prof. Benny Morris, a *historian*

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## Shams313

Mithridates said:


>


Understands modern warfare...
...indeed a historian..

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## Arminkh

Sineva said:


> Heres one that gave me a good chuckle for obvious reasons
> 
> #####WARNING ZIONIST SOURCE#####
> 
> Opinion
> *How Israel Can Deter Iran *
> 
> An all-out Iran offensive against Israel can be neutralized using a simple declaration of just one sentence
> 
> Hezbollah is said to have 130,000 rockets that could reach all of Israel, with Hamas possessing thousands of rockets that could cover southern and central Israel, including the Tel Aviv area. It is also said that, if war broke out, Israel could find itself fighting on two fronts, possibly even a third, the Golan Heights, where it would face an Iranian force made up of Revolutionary Guards and militias under Tehran’s control.
> 
> And in the next war, thousands of rockets would land on Israeli population centers, and on strategic assets including the Haifa Bay industrial complex, power stations on the Mediterranean coast, ammonia tanks and airports and who knows what else, not to mention military bases, including air bases. Such a barrage could seriously disrupt air force operations and possibly also the mobilization assembly points and armored columns, which at that point should be racing toward Beirut, the Syrian section of the Golan Heights and Gaza.
> 
> Israel’s anti-rocket capabilities, which include many Iron Dome batteries and a large supply of Arrow missiles, wouldn’t provide sufficient defense for the country’s cities and factories against such an onslaught. All this would happen on Iran’s orders, the moment Tehran decided that the conditions were right, perhaps in the not-so-distant future in a regional conflict or something that relates more directly to Israel and its efforts to prevent the spread of Iranian power around us.
> 
> The Israeli media says little about the chaos that would ensue for weeks or even months, even if the country’s road, train, electricity, water, sewage and natural gas infrastructure continued to function at some basic level, and even if the army pressed all the way to Beirut and Gaza’s cities and somehow routed Hezbollah and Hamas after fighting that exacted a heavy casualty toll and wreaked massive destruction.
> 
> But there may be a way to avert this scenario with one simple and blunt statement. The Israeli government should declare tomorrow, immediately, publicly and unequivocally, that if Iran’s proxies forced Israel into an all-out war, for any reason, with a massive rocket barrage, Israel would respond immediately and forcefully against Tehran, Isfahan, Shiraz, Bushehr, Natanz, Qom and Iran’s other population centers and strategic targets.
> 
> 
> Iran would know that such a clear and powerful public statement would compel every Israeli government – regardless of who’s prime minister – to act on it (lest Israel be seen as a paper tiger and lose all its deterrent capability). Also, Iran would understand that it would pay dearly for an assault on Israel by its proxies. The fear of such a massive Israeli reprisal – hundreds of missiles and bombs on Iran’s cities and strategic assets for weeks – would make Iran’s leaders think very carefully about whether they should dispatch Hezbollah and Hamas and their proxies in Syria on any adventures.
> So far, Iran has enjoyed immunity from attacks on its soil, with Israeli governments opting to respond to rockets from Lebanon and Gaza with (limited) strikes against targets in Lebanon, Gaza and Syria. This was a mistake that left Israel under a constant threat in the north and south, and led to a balance of deterrence – a balance that Tehran could nullify whenever it chose.
> 
> A clear and public announcement by Israel would probably deter Tehran from embarking on such an adventure. Critics would say: In response to an Israeli counterattack on Iran, Tehran would launch missiles on Israeli and possibly American targets in the Gulf – and in Iraq and Syria too. Maybe, but Israel’s ability to strike Iran is much greater than Iran’s ability to strike Israel, and that’s without considering Israel’s nonconventional capabilities. Israel’s anti-ballistic capabilities would probably neutralize the bulk of the missiles from Iran (which has a limited capability at the necessary range).
> 
> 
> Nor does Iran have an air force that could come near Israel in any significant way. The regime of the ayatollahs, whose headquarters, factories and military would be bombed, would probably not be able to withstand such a contest for long, especially considering the regime’s unpopularity with everyday Iranians, which would certainly grow if the country’s major cities and factories were assaulted. And in such a conflict, there is no reason to believe that Tehran would wish to add the United States as an active combatant against it.
> 
> Thus, I believe that, using a simple declaration of just one sentence, the specter of an all-out offensive against Israel by Iran’s proxies and emissaries can be neutralized.
> 
> Would Hezbollah and Hamas launch their rocket arsenal at Israel without an order or approval from Tehran and against its will? This is hard to believe, as they need Tehran’s political, financial and military support, and as well fear that Israel would destroy neighborhoods in Gaza and Lebanon. In any event, Israel must act as if the signal for an attack on it would be given by Tehran, and Tehran must understand that this is how Israel would act. This would certainly prod Iran to rein in the neighboring fundamentalist Islamic groups, even should Hezbollah and Hamas think of going to war independently.
> 
> Israel should issue its warning to Tehran very loudly and clearly, and the sooner the better. Perhaps this will spare us the terrible war that many analysts predict is approaching.
> 
> _Prof. Benny Morris, a historian, is the author of a number of books including “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949.” _
> 
> *I think that this article illustrates the zionist mindset rather beautifully*


The keyword is "probably" !. Israel anti BM can probably counter Iran's missiles. Ok what if it doesn't? What are you going to do then? Oops! My bad!!!

God knows how many wars has started because of these kinds of uninformed comments and decisions.

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## Blue In Green

Arminkh said:


> The keyword is "probably" !. Israel anti BM can probably counter Iran's missiles. Ok what if it doesn't? What are you going to do then? Oops! My bad!!!
> 
> God knows how many wars has started because of these kinds of uninformed comments and decisions.



I personally don't get the rationale behind saying that a country has the ability to "stop" another countries missiles. Quite frankly it comes off as if they're saying that Israel, Saudi Arabia, or whatever nation can 100% stop *every *missile Iran fires or any nation really..... 

Like, are we just to accept that one nation can completely mitigate the possible damage an enemy nation can do to them? Are Patriot, Arrow, Davids Sling, THAAD just magical systems?

Idk, just confused....

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## hussainb72

Arminkh said:


> The keyword is "probably" !. Israel anti BM can probably counter Iran's missiles. Ok what if it doesn't? What are you going to do then? Oops! My bad!!!
> 
> God knows how many wars has started because of these kinds of uninformed comments and decisions.



I would switch probably with cant, as their anti BM systems already failed. Can anyone plz share any links about when iran fired a hormuz anti radiation BM and destroyed the pine tree radar in israel.

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## Arminkh

hussainb72 said:


> I would switch probably with cant, as their anti BM systems already failed. Can anyone plz share any links about when iran fired a hormuz anti radiation BM and destroyed the pine tree radar in israel.


I hadn't heard about this


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## hussainb72

BlueInGreen2 said:


> I personally don't get the rationale behind saying that a country has the ability to "stop" another countries missiles. Quite frankly it comes off as if they're saying that Israel, Saudi Arabia, or whatever nation can 100% stop *every *missile Iran fires or any nation really.....
> 
> Like, are we just to accept that one nation can completely mitigate the possible damage an enemy nation can do to them? Are Patriot, Arrow, Davids Sling, THAAD just magical systems?
> 
> Idk, just confused....



It's basically impossible to stop every single missile. Iran produces hundreds of missiles each year and upgrades its older missiles constantly, some of these missiles have decoys, others have a hypersonic reentry speed, others act as decoys themselves, these all are a factor that would affect how many missiles can be shot out of the air. And each system has a capacity it can handle, if a system for example can engage 6 targets at a time and has 12 missiles loaded only like the Bavar 373, it can engage up to 6 targets only until it has shot those 6, then it can fire at 6 other targets, assuming that it will be able to shoot down each target with 1 missile, then it has to reload and that takes time.
And israel doesnt really have the much of systems that can shoot down anti BM missiles. The iron dome is just useless as it can only fire at small rockets and artillery shells and apartments if u get what I mean. Then the other systems are combat proven and probably wont have the capability to do anything, and the patriot systems it has have a limited capability and can be over saturated easily. So in conclusion, israel wont be able to defend itself against an iranian missile attack and will be flattened in 7 mins.



Arminkh said:


> I hadn't heard about this



I dont remember when it happened exactly, but when it happened, israel requested that the US would send a patriot system to israel immediately just to act as a back up, and to cover it up, they said that its just a drill to test our reaction time in moving our AD systems, and the system remained there for a while, but idk if they sent it back now or is it still there.

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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169271144844865542

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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169271144844865542


These guys have become paranoid. Next is that they are themselves helping Iran transfer weapons to Yemen!

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## skyshadow

Arminkh said:


> These guys have become paranoid. Next is that they are themselves helping Iran transfer weapons to Yemen!


its good that UAE is siding with Iran and seeing there is no end when you start playing games with Iran.

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## hussainb72

Arminkh said:


> These guys have become paranoid. Next is that they are themselves helping Iran transfer weapons to Yemen!



I already explained what has happened to them, they cant trust the US anymore and the US wont support them unless they pay the US. So instead of paying lots of money to the US, they just decided to join iran, they will pay less and get full protection against everything.



skyshadow said:


> its good that UAE is siding with Iran and seeing there is no end when you start playing games with Iran.



I wish my country had some brain ti stop playing this game which they cant do anything in except for getting crushed. We are in the worst position if a war starts, we literally have nothing, NOTHING. Everyone will die in less than a week.
Our water source is the sea, food is manufactured from outside and brought for us, our fuel is made outside and brought, everything is imported. And all the workers are foreigner who got citizenship, and more are coming every day. Foreigners make almost 60% of the population, once they leave, even the simplest stuff that we have that might help survive a little longer wont be of any use.

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## arashkamangir

hussainb72 said:


> I already explained what has happened to them, they cant trust the US anymore and the US wont support them unless they pay the US. So instead of paying lots of money to the US, they just decided to join iran, they will pay less and get full protection against everything.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish my country had some brain ti stop playing this game which they cant do anything in except for getting crushed. We are in the worst position if a war starts, we literally have nothing, NOTHING. Everyone will die in less than a week.
> Our water source is the sea, food is manufactured from outside and brought for us, our fuel is made outside and brought, everything is imported. And all the workers are foreigner who got citizenship, and more are coming every day. Foreigners make almost 60% of the population, once they leave, even the simplest stuff that we have that might help survive a little longer wont be of any use.




The whole concept of Iran picking fight against its neighbours is ridiculous. Iran already has plenty of resources and plenty of land mass that is more than enough. Look, Iran cannot possibly sell all its resources as these hydrocarbon wealth are becoming rapidly irrelevant. All Iran has ever done has purely been defensive, a response to an ill intended initiative.

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## hussainb72

arashkamangir said:


> The whole concept of Iran picking fight against its neighbours is ridiculous. Iran already has plenty of resources and plenty of land mass that is more than enough. Look, Iran cannot possibly sell all its resources as these hydrocarbon wealth are becoming rapidly irrelevant. All Iran has ever done has purely been defensive, a response to an ill intended initiative.



You are looking at this the wrong way, iran isnt trying to attack its neighbouring countries. The thing is that iran is just defending itself against them. As you said, iran has lots of resources, that simply means that iran doesnt need extra, so there is no reason to attack. You might call all iranian proxies in the region an act of aggression, but again it's only for defensive purposes. If these proxies didnt exist, iran wouldve not existed, you would see the ISIS flag on Iran and most people would be dead. Never forget the Iran-Iraq war, did iran start the fight or was it Saddam who attacked first? How many countries were helping him? That war started 1 year after the revolution, this just shows how iran's enemies think about iran. And after almost 40 years, their physical appearance might have changed but, their intentions are the same. They try achieving their goals this time in other ways, so iran decided to defend itself in another way other than starting a war, which is all these proxies it has in the region.

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## SOHEIL



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## Kiarash

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 578213



Ghaem?


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## SOHEIL

Kiarash said:


> Ghaem?



Too small for that !

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## Kiarash

SOHEIL said:


> Too small for that !


 
You almost got yourself a good Shirini from me.

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## SOHEIL

Kiarash said:


> You almost got yourself a good Shirini from me.



What if it turns out to be nothing ?

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## PeeD

They only work at night

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## Hassan Al-Somal

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 578213




I wouldn't show it if I were you. If this location is a secretive, important location, you just gave hints to others.


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## SOHEIL

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> I wouldn't show it if I were you. If this location is a secretive, important location, you just gave hints to others.



Important but not secretive !

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## TheImmortal

No secret military base is going to be painted “bright blue” basically asking to be found.

Seriously you people need to stop watching Hollywood movies.

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## skyshadow

*

did we just fired stealth cruise missiles from Iran through Kuwait and in to Saudi Arabia???????  




 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172806388948639744*











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172690958971998210

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> *
> did we just fired stealth cruise missiles from Iran through Kuwait and in to Saudi Arabia???????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172806388948639744*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172690958971998210


No drones from yemen....

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## skyshadow

DoubleYouSee said:


> No drones from yemen....



then how they ended up being filmed and saw in *Kuwait ????, *no your theory does not add up brother


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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> then how they ended up being filmed and saw in *Kuwait ????, *no your theory does not add up brother


It is absurd to think Iran would directly attack KSA like that, that would be a clear declaration of war. 

Where is your source for Kuwait? Al Jarida???

Houthis already claimed responsibility for this and had a press conference detailing that this attack was 10 drones and intelligence from the ground. 

Another possibility is that the attack originated from Iraq hence passed through Kuwait that way. But no way in hell did this originate in Iran!

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## DoubleYouSee

Battle of Waterloo said:


> It is absurd to think Iran would directly attack KSA like that, that would be a clear declaration of war.
> 
> Where is your source for Kuwait? Al Jarida???
> 
> Houthis already claimed responsibility for this and had a press conference detailing that this attack was 10 drones and intelligence from the ground.
> 
> Another possibility is that the attack originated from Iraq hence passed through Kuwait that way. But no way in hell did this originate in Iran!


What a wide impact area it is!.....from this stance all targets are far from each other individually


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## Hassan Al-Somal

These facilities are very far from areas controlled by the Houthi/Ansarullah group in Yemen, so this attack shows growing capabilities on the Houthis' side. It seems, as they build more drones, they're making advances on bigger drones that can reach far distances. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172789251681001473

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## GWXP

Possibly done by Houthi allies among Shias of Bahrain----truth is that if Iran wants and especially in the event of war all oil refineries in Saudi Arabia will be burning like candles....This attack is just one little response to oil embargo

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## Battle of Waterloo

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172879337789542400


GWXP said:


> Possibly done by Houthi allies among Shias of Bahrain----truth is that if Iran wants and especially in the event of war all oil refineries in Saudi Arabia will be burning like candles....This attack is just one little response to oil embargo


No way by Shias of Bahrain. They are very small and insignificant. 

Houthis said they had help from intelligence on the ground, this was in Shia East Saudi Arabia, so that is more likely... 

Also apparently two separate sites were hit. But from the images and videos I saw at least 7 major sources of fire, suggesting 7+ major successful impacts.

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## skyshadow

Battle of Waterloo said:


> It is absurd to think Iran would directly attack KSA like that, that would be a clear declaration of war.
> 
> Where is your source for Kuwait? Al Jarida???
> 
> Houthis already claimed responsibility for this and had a press conference detailing that this attack was 10 drones and intelligence from the ground.
> 
> Another possibility is that the attack originated from Iraq hence passed through Kuwait that way. But no way in hell did this originate in Iran!



i just guess as no one knows yet were they were from but they were filmed in *Kuwait *air space so its either from Iraq or Iran or Kuwait it self so i asked everyone did we attack SA as those sounded more like cruise missiles then small UAVs.

Houthis apparently also used their Quds-1 Cruise missile on the attack on Aramco oil facilities at Abqaiq KSA, replica of the Iranian "Sumar". The tail part can be seen without the booster which was jettisoned after launch.


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## VEVAK

mohsen said:


> With 0.1 m^2 RCS?!



It may be a good system for testing various sensors, navigation & guidance systems for LACM but not a good system for practical military use for ground launched land attack cruise missiles.

For cruise missiles you'll need a high rate of fire due to their limited speed during terminal guidance especially against modern thermal sensors that will pick them up and especially with advancements made in lasers and other directed energy weapons that will be assisting more advanced AAA and other SHORAD systems. 

so Iran has to take into account the number of launches you can have per vehicle, the number of personal needed per launch, the set up time for each launch, rate of fire, storage of a large stock and the ease and survivability during transport and handling,.... all of which this missile gets negative marks on.

Putting proper retractable wings, a proper container and launchers doesn't effect your overall cost by that much for you to cut corners in that way so whomever came up with this design clearly wasn't thinking that clearly and I honestly don't see how the mass production of this missile makes any kind of sense.


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## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> i just guess as no one knows yet were they were from but they were filmed in *Kuwait *air space so its either from Iraq or Iran or Kuwait it self so i asked everyone did we attack SA as those sounded more like cruise missiles then small UAVs.
> 
> Houthis apparently also used their Quds-1 Cruise missile on the attack on Aramco oil facilities at Abqaiq KSA, replica of the Iranian "Sumar". The tail part can be seen without the booster which was jettisoned after launch.


What's your source for these images?

@skyshadow I found the source - a Saudi propaganda Twitter account ("MbKS15"). 

Please be more careful in sharing Saudi propaganda or at least state the source so it's clear it's not a reliable source.

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## 925boy

GWXP said:


> Possibly done by Houthi allies among Shias of Bahrain----truth is that if Iran wants and especially in the event of war all oil refineries in Saudi Arabia will be burning like candles....This attack is just one little response to oil embargo


Ever since the US didn't shoot down the Iranian drone, the military momentum and advantage in the Middle east has been on Iran's side. Thats the way it looks to me. 
They told us that Israel's military is HIGH TECH and BEST in the Middle east, but when Hezbollah threatened an attack, IDF cleared the entire border with Lebanon and left dummy soldiers and treated them like real humans until they arrived in the hospital for operation. Are those types of IDF ready for a real war? Saudi Arabia was given the best military technology and training that US has, and they have surplus cash for their military, but they still cant use that to have an effective military or successful military campaign in Yemen. 

The US was played a card, and the US didn't play it well,and i hate to say that(but maybe thats a good thing called peace).



skyshadow said:


> i just guess as no one knows yet were they were from but they were filmed in *Kuwait *air space so its either from Iraq or Iran or Kuwait it self so i asked everyone did we attack SA as those sounded more like cruise missiles then small UAVs.
> 
> Houthis apparently also used their Quds-1 Cruise missile on the attack on Aramco oil facilities at Abqaiq KSA, replica of the Iranian "Sumar". The tail part can be seen without the booster which was jettisoned after launch.


i hope this is clear evidence that Iran supports the Houthis militarily? I know this has been considered a cospiracy theory by several members of PDF, but we are seeing direct clear evidence. Countries seem to be transferring weapons via transfer of source information and knowledge vs transfer of physical military hardware.

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> It may be a good system for testing various sensors, navigation & guidance systems for LACM but not a good system for practical military use for ground launched land attack cruise missiles.
> 
> For cruise missiles you'll need a high rate of fire due to their limited speed during terminal guidance especially against modern thermal sensors that will pick them up and especially with advancements made in lasers and other directed energy weapons that will be assisting more advanced AAA and other SHORAD systems.
> 
> so Iran has to take into account the number of launches you can have per vehicle, the number of personal needed per launch, the set up time for each launch, rate of fire, storage of a large stock and the ease and survivability during transport and handling,.... all of which this missile gets negative marks on.
> 
> Putting proper retractable wings, a proper container and launchers doesn't effect your overall cost by that much for you to cut corners in that way so whomever came up with this design clearly wasn't thinking that clearly and I honestly don't see how the mass production of this missile makes any kind of sense.



You are confusing stealth cruise missiles with regular cruise missiles. A stealth cruise missile does not in fact need to be fired in large numbers and would actually be illogical as a large swarm of stealth cruise missiles would cause a higher likelihood of radar scatter and greater detection.

And I don’t know what Star Wars world you live in, but there isn’t a laser that can take down a stealth cruise missile at 30,000 altitude going 900km/hr.

If stats are correct a 900km/hr very low RCS cruise missile operating under a avoidance radar route can easily pass most Air defense envelopes and strike the target.

The world isn’t as Hollywood Movie like as you like to portray as the recent attack on Saudi Arabia oil terminal illustrated.

This missile is valuable as an asset to use. As this the 1st generation, I expect more improvements.

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## yavar

https://www.aparat.com/v/jM2Cv

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## Iskander

According to General Amir Ali Hajizadeh Iranian missiles can hit vessels up to 2000 KM

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## Battle of Waterloo

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173336741136281602

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## yavar

*Iran IRGC_AS chief Gen. Hajizadeh: 2000KM anti-ship ballistic missile*







Iran Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh, the commander of the IRGC's Aerospace: US military vessels are within reach of our anti-ship ballistic missiles ( ASBM ) up to a radius of 2,000 kilometers, readiness of the forces to respond after shot down U.S MQ-4 drone in case of any U.S military retaliation

“In addition to US bases in the region, we have all their vessels, including aircraft carriers and warships, under fire of our missiles to a radius of 2,000 kilometers, and are constantly monitoring them,” the Iranian commander said.
He added, "They (Americans) thought that they could get out of our range of [missile] fire if they stand 400 kilometers away [from Iran's territorial waters]. However, no matter where they are, if a conflict is ignited, their warships will be first to be targeted by our fire."
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/09/15/606255/missile-Iran-IRGC-Hajizadeh-Trump-strike

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## GWXP

yavar said:


> *Iran IRGC_AS chief Gen. Hajizadeh: 2000KM anti-ship ballistic missile*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh, the commander of the IRGC's Aerospace: US military vessels are within reach of our anti-ship ballistic missiles ( ASBM ) up to a radius of 2,000 kilometers, readiness of the forces to respond after shot down U.S MQ-4 drone in case of any U.S military retaliation
> 
> “In addition to US bases in the region, we have all their vessels, including aircraft carriers and warships, under fire of our missiles to a radius of 2,000 kilometers, and are constantly monitoring them,” the Iranian commander said.
> He added, "They (Americans) thought that they could get out of our range of [missile] fire if they stand 400 kilometers away [from Iran's territorial waters]. However, no matter where they are, if a conflict is ignited, their warships will be first to be targeted by our fire."
> https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/09/15/606255/missile-Iran-IRGC-Hajizadeh-Trump-strike



How Iran is going to track and target a warship at 2000km...You need satellites for that

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## skyshadow



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## Russel

Battle of Waterloo said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173336741136281602


This is called precision strike from precision guided missile. Missiles may be with 2-3 meters CEP.

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## skyshadow

Russel said:


> This is called precision strike from precision guided missile. Missiles may be with 2-3 meters CEP.



*like these?*

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## TheImmortal

Iran launched nearly a dozen cruise missiles and over 20 drones from its territory in the attack on a key Saudi oil facility Saturday, a senior Trump administration official told ABC News Sunday.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...s-attack-saudi-oil-facility/story?id=65632653


It appears not all the drones/missiles hit their targets.


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## Battle of Waterloo

Well, if a senior Trump official said it...!

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## Smarana Mitra

hussainb72 said:


> Never forget the Iran-Iraq war, did iran start the fight or was it Saddam who attacked first?


Iran started the war by calling for revolution in Iraq. Saddam was actually friendly in th3 initial stage as Saddam hated USA and considered Iran as a good bulwark against USA aggression. But Khomeini started to instigate Iraqis to attack Saddam and establish Islamic republic. So, though Iraq started the war, it was Iran that forced Iraq to do so


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## Battle of Waterloo

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran started the war
> 
> ... though Iraq started the war


Typical street shitter logic. Colonised by the Brits and the Persians (half your diamonds are now in the British Crown Jewels and the other half in the Iranian Crown Jewels), no wonder you are so obsessed.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> Iran launched nearly a dozen cruise missiles and over 20 drones from its territory in the attack on a key Saudi oil facility Saturday, a senior Trump administration official told ABC News Sunday.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/International/iran-fired-cruise-missiles-attack-saudi-oil-facility/story?id=65632653
> 
> 
> It appears not all the drones/missiles hit their targets.



how do they know??? they could not detect them but they could say exactly how many were launched?????????????

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> how do they know??? they could not detect them but they could say exactly how many were launched?????????????



Multiple ways

Review data of Spy satellites flying above the Middle East during the time of the attack.

They can go back and look at radar coverage data of multiple areas. It’s possible they appeared on some radar coverage briefly or in some fashion, but were ignored/not detected by trained Air defense crews.

Other signal Intelligence efforts.

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## hussainb72

TheImmortal said:


> Iran launched nearly a dozen cruise missiles and over 20 drones from its territory in the attack on a key Saudi oil facility Saturday, a senior Trump administration official told ABC News Sunday.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/International/iran-fired-cruise-missiles-attack-saudi-oil-facility/story?id=65632653
> 
> 
> It appears not all the drones/missiles hit their targets.



I wouldnt believe whatever they are saying until they show clear evidence that it was iran who performed the attack directly and that there were 20 or more drones in their evidence.

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## Mithridates

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran started the war by calling for revolution in Iraq. Saddam was actually friendly in th3 initial stage as Saddam hated USA and considered Iran as a good bulwark against USA aggression. But Khomeini started to instigate Iraqis to attack Saddam and establish Islamic republic. So, though Iraq started the war, it was Iran that forced Iraq to do so


do you know Saddam attacked Iran several times in shah era??

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## 925boy

TheImmortal said:


> It appears not all the drones/missiles hit their targets.


Based on the results we see, did they have to?

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## Smarana Mitra

Mithridates said:


> do you know Saddam attacked Iran several times in shah era??


Saddam was anti-USA and hence it was not one sided aggression. Shah acted as CIA agent and antagonised Saddam at different levels. But when revolution happened, Saddam was happy that CIA agent Shah was removed. But Khomeini started to instigate citing that Saddam was atheist and secular Soviet agent and called Iraqis to launch revolution


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## Mithridates

Smarana Mitra said:


> Saddam was anti-USA and hence it was not one sided aggression. Shah acted as CIA agent and antagonised Saddam at different levels. But when revolution happened, Saddam was happy that CIA agent Shah was removed. But Khomeini started to instigate citing that Saddam was atheist and secular Soviet agent and called Iraqis to launch revolution


Saddam was Arab nationalist also Iraq always wanted a port in Persian gulf, based on two reasons he attacked ahwaz province with the slogan of freedom for Iranian Arabs. I'm not saying there was no connection between iran and iraqi shias those days but that was not the main reason.

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## skyshadow

*جانشین فرمانده سپاه تهران بزرگ از برپایی نمایشگاه موشکی سپاه به مناسبت هفته دفاع مقدس در کنار دریاچه شهدای خلیج فارس خبر داد.*



http://defapress.ir/fa/news/361950/برپایی-نمایشگاه-موشکی-سپاه-به-مناسبت-هفته-دفاع-مقدس


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## ashool

Smarana Mitra said:


> Saddam was anti-USA and hence it was not one sided aggression. Shah acted as CIA agent and antagonised Saddam at different levels. But when revolution happened, Saddam was happy that CIA agent Shah was removed. But Khomeini started to instigate citing that Saddam was atheist and secular Soviet agent and called Iraqis to launch revolution


are you indian ? or you are saudi or maybe indian works for saudi like maid or waiter good for you nice job

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> Iran launched nearly a dozen cruise missiles and over 20 drones from its territory in the attack on a key Saudi oil facility Saturday, a senior Trump administration official told ABC News Sunday.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/International/iran-fired-cruise-missiles-attack-saudi-oil-facility/story?id=65632653
> 
> 
> It appears not all the drones/missiles hit their targets.


It seems USA again made some baseless claims without any evidence.



Smarana Mitra said:


> Saddam was anti-USA and hence it was not one sided aggression. Shah acted as CIA agent and antagonised Saddam at different levels. But when revolution happened, Saddam was happy that CIA agent Shah was removed. But Khomeini started to instigate citing that Saddam was atheist and secular Soviet agent and called Iraqis to launch revolution


Saddam was not anti USA .
In shah era he attacked iran so he can grab iran rights in Arvand-Rood .
After revolution he attacked in hope of annexing oil rich Khuzestan .
Then after war he attacked Kuwait in hope of grabbing Kuwait oil fields .

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## SubWater

skyshadow said:


> *like these?*


Now, I am more convinced that your story is nearest one to what happened.

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## Russel

skyshadow said:


> *like these?*


No, optically controlled missile from drone will not hit symmetrically/ at exact same spots at four different objects!


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## Surenas

The strike was highly effective from a military perspective. The weapons hit at around 4 a.m. local time and appear to have struck from a northerly or northwesterly direction. This fits with a string of reporting that suggests related air defense alerts and engine sounds were concentrated in areas of the northern Persian Gulf, as opposed to an ingress route from Yemen. Strong U.S. government statements have ruled out Yemen (on September 14) and Iraq (on September 16), so the focus is narrowing to a direct strike originating from Iran.

These factors—plus the lack of attempted air defense interception by numerous overlapping Hawk and Patriot missile batteries—suggest a low-level cruise missile attack that hugged the ground at altitudes of under 300 feet. The footage seen thus far shows only one crashed missile, indicating that the arrival rate was very high, possibly even 95 percent, and that routes were carefully planned to avoid obstacles such as power lines and communication towers.

Seventeen individual impact points were struck at the Abqaiq facility, with a smaller number (perhaps as low as two) at Khurais. The weapons were highly accurate—for instance, all twelve of the thirty-meter-wide spheroid gas-oil separation tanks at Abqaiq were hit almost dead center. Much thinner stabilization towers were also accurately struck.

There are even indications of finesse in the strike’s “weaponeering,” the technical term for munition selection and modification. Some “aimpoints” were clearly hit with large explosive payloads consistent with an Iranian cruise missile such as the 700-kilometer-range Ya-Ali. Yet the gas-oil separation tanks appear to have been struck with high-velocity kinetic force sans explosions, perhaps signaling an effort to damage but not permanently destroy them. Similar finesse was visible in Iran’s May 12 attacks in the Fujairah anchorage off the United Arab Emirates, where four ships had their hulls expertly holed without causing the vessels to spill oil, sink, or suffer massive fires.

The full level of damage inflicted this Saturday is unknown so far, but considering the range of facilities struck and the long lead times for manufacturing such specialized equipment, the impact on Saudi oil processing capacity could extend into the four-, six-, or even twelve-month timeframe, forcing the kingdom to discontinue offering Arab Light and Arab Super Light grades. This extraordinary outcome would deeply shock oil markets and the Saudi leadership alike. And from a military perspective, no energy sector has been struck so effectively since the U.S. coalition’s precision bombing of Iraq in 1991.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org....-saudi-defense-relations-and-iran-deterrence

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## skyshadow

Russel said:


> No, optically controlled missile from drone will not hit symmetrically/ at exact same spots at four different objects!


laser guided


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## Battle of Waterloo

"*Iran has about 50 medium range ballistic missiles deployed* and others in development, as well as about 130 drones, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...at-it-s-too-big-to-be-crushed-or-marginalized

LOL

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## Mithridates

skyshadow said:


> laser guided


EO missile/bombs always hit the center of target.



Battle of Waterloo said:


> "*Iran has about 50 medium range ballistic missiles deployed* and others in development, as well as about 130 drones, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London."
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...at-it-s-too-big-to-be-crushed-or-marginalized
> 
> LOL


lol

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## Sina-1

Battle of Waterloo said:


> "*Iran has about 50 medium range ballistic missiles deployed* and others in development, as well as about 130 drones, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London."
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...at-it-s-too-big-to-be-crushed-or-marginalized
> 
> LOL


Looool

I think Haj qasem has that many in his basement alone!

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## Mithridates

Sina-1 said:


> Looool
> 
> I think Haj qasem has that many in his basement alone!

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> You are confusing stealth cruise missiles with regular cruise missiles. A stealth cruise missile does not in fact need to be fired in large numbers and would actually be illogical as a large swarm of stealth cruise missiles would cause a higher likelihood of radar scatter and greater detection.
> 
> And I don’t know what Star Wars world you live in, but there isn’t a laser that can take down a stealth cruise missile at 30,000 altitude going 900km/hr.
> 
> If stats are correct a 900km/hr very low RCS cruise missile operating under a avoidance radar route can easily pass most Air defense envelopes and strike the target.
> 
> The world isn’t as Hollywood Movie like as you like to portray as the recent attack on Saudi Arabia oil terminal illustrated.
> 
> This missile is valuable as an asset to use. As this the 1st generation, I expect more improvements.



How many of these cruise missiles do you think Iran would need to fire at a single mid size Air Force base to effectively disable it? 
Don't get me wrong, Iran most defiantly needs limited payload, low cost cruise missiles similar to this however, the whole point of having low cost cruise missile such as this is to have the ability to deploy them in mass numbers that unfortunately the design of this missiles prohibits due to this inherit design flaws.​
The most effective way of a cruise missile to go undetected is to fly below the radar and you really can't use radar based SAM's to intercept low altitude cruise missiles from long distances anyways so as I mentioned before it doesn't matter how low your RCS is because the biggest ground based threat to your cruise missile is from SHORAD systems and almost all of them have thermal and optical solutions as for ground based lasers and directed energy weapons those get categorized as short ranged solutions for cruise missiles due to the line of sight restrictions and they are simply one layer of short ranged systems you'll need to defeat in highly protected area.

As for Yemen's attack on the Saudi facility, although highly sophisticated and impressive it simply isn't a real solution for a country like Iran because it was extremely limited both in the number of targets and destructive power, it likely required a relatively long time to plan and execute and it's logistics was relatively complex, time consuming and hard to replicate and the target was clearly not sufficiently protected with the proper amount and type of SHORAD defense systems. 

Iran is not Yemen and unless we plan to fight a war like Yemen is fighting today with our people under the threat of famine then any attack on Iranian soil would require an immediate response that would require firing 1000's of projectiles in the 1st day so logistic, manpower needed per launch, storage space, ease of transport, deployment and launch time,… these all have to be taken into account before a weapons systems is taken into production.

Iran like every country in the world has a limited number of personal that we can afford to have on full payroll and weapon systems like this require fulltime trained personal and because Ballistic Missiles in general are not weapon systems that are easy to launch Iran needs to make up the difference in terms of projectile deployment with low cost cruise missiles

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## TheImmortal

*U.S. Satellites Detected Iran Readying Weapons Ahead Of Saudi Strike, Officials Say

U.S. surveillance satellites detected Iran readying drones and missiles at launch sites in Iran before Saudi oil facilities were attacked on Saturday, according to two Defense Department officials.

The imagery has not been publicly released. The officials tell NPR that U.S. intelligence views the activity as "circumstantial evidence" that Iran launched the strike from its own soil.

*


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## Bahram Esfandiari

TheImmortal said:


> *U.S. Satellites Detected Iran Readying Weapons Ahead Of Saudi Strike, Officials Say
> 
> U.S. surveillance satellites detected Iran readying drones and missiles at launch sites in Iran before Saudi oil facilities were attacked on Saturday, according to two Defense Department officials.
> 
> The imagery has not been publicly released. The officials tell NPR that U.S. intelligence views the activity as "circumstantial evidence" that Iran launched the strike from its own soil.
> 
> *



More lies from the U.S. If they had detected Iran "readying weapons" why was Iraq originally suspected?

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## Arminkh

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> More lies from the U.S. If they had detected Iran "readying weapons" why was Iraq originally suspected?


They have made an accusation and now are trying to back it up. They may as well show a footage from months ago to show drones are getting ready to take off.

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## GWXP

The attack was quite sophisticated -to cross several countries, 1000km distance, bypass enemy air defenses and successfully hit the targets---quite sophisticated attack.

May USA believe it is Iran---this is just one little response to oil embargo and USA can do nothing, because if they do all oil facilities in the Persian Gulf will be burning like Abqaiq and global economy will go into recession.

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## Smarana Mitra

GWXP said:


> The attack was quite sophisticated -to cross several countries, 1000km distance, bypass enemy air defenses and successfully hit the targets---quite sophisticated attack.
> 
> May USA believe it is Iran---this is just one little response to oil embargo and USA can do nothing, because if they do all oil facilities in the Persian Gulf will be burning like Abqaiq and global economy will go into recession.


Iran hasn't demonstrated 1000km+ cruise missile with such accuracy. So, it ie unlikely to be Iran.

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## Caspian Parsi

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran hasn't demonstrated 1000km+ cruise missile with such accuracy. So, it ie unlikely to be Iran.


 I know your an idiot ,you dont have to keep reminding me ,,

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## WinterNights

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran hasn't demonstrated 1000km+ cruise missile with such accuracy. So, it ie unlikely to be Iran.



Here we go again with this joker that does not even know the difference between a liquid fuelled and solid fuelled ballistic missile.

Iran literally revealed a 1000+ km ranged missile last year. Just because you Indians are struggling to develop such a missile, it does not mean we can't build one.

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## WinterNights

I would be genuinely very surprised if a single tomohawk could ever make its way into Iranian airspace. Tomohawk is an old missile and it would have been one of the first things Iran would develop a defence against.

Iran's ability to devastate US forces within 2000-3000 km would mean US would never leave/bring their forces to such proximity to Iran during a conflict. And if they can't bring their forces to such proximity, then have little hope of waging any meaningful war. This is why access denial/area denial is such a potent deterrence.

The only war the US is capable of waging against Iran is an economical war. The cyber war domain is another domain we need to keep a very close eye one. That domain is one that would potentially deliver a shock to a nation if that nation is not careful. Of course we could do the same to them.

EDIT: this comment was made in reply to a post that was made above this bu a user who has now removed their post. Their post involved 5 scenarios regarding how US could strike Iran.

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## SOHEIL

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran hasn't demonstrated 1000km+ cruise missile with such accuracy. So, it ie unlikely to be Iran.



What you call demonstrating ?

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## skyshadow

*Geolocation of Buqayq facilities Air defense systems. this facilities at least defended by one Patriot PAC-2/3 , 3 Skyguard and one Shahine Batteries.*

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Arminkh said:


> They have made an accusation and now are trying to back it up. They may as well show a footage from months ago to show drones are getting ready to take off.



Special


WinterNights said:


> Here we go again with this joker that does not even know the difference between a liquid fuelled and solid fuelled ballistic missile.
> 
> Iran literally revealed a 1000+ km ranged missile last year. Just because you Indians are struggling to develop such a missile, it does not mean we can't build one.



This Clown didn't even know the difference between a cruise missile and and a Guided semi-Ballistic missile!

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## Smarana Mitra

SOHEIL said:


> What you call demonstrating ?


I mean test demonstration of the missile In 2017, Iran tried to hit ISIS in Iraq @ 700-800km distance and the missiles were way inaccurate with some missiles even falling outside the city. Iran has only shown accuracy in hitting targets within 60km range in 2018 kurdistan strike (even glide bombs can have that range)


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## WinterNights

Smarana Mitra said:


> I mean test demonstration of the missile In 2017, Iran tried to hit ISIS in Iraq @ 700-800km distance and the missiles were way inaccurate with some missiles even falling outside the city. Iran has only shown accuracy in hitting targets within 60km range in 2018 kurdistan strike (even glide bombs can have that range)



Are you not getting tired of making yourself looking like an utter imbecile?
Those missiles "falling outside the city" were nothing but the first stages of the missiles.

First go learn the difference between a solid fuel and liquid fuel missile then come back. You lack the capacity to engage in these discussions.

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## SOHEIL

Smarana Mitra said:


> I mean test demonstration of the missile In 2017, Iran tried to hit ISIS in Iraq @ 700-800km distance and the missiles were way inaccurate with some missiles even falling outside the city. Iran has only shown accuracy in hitting targets within 60km range in 2018 kurdistan strike (even glide bombs can have that range)



You are mixing up stuff here !

Ballistic missiles and cruise missiles are different stories ...

In 2017 we used 2 missiles for every targets ... Because malfunction is normal in mass produced military systems ... especially critical systems like BMs !

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## Caspian Parsi

skyshadow said:


> *Geolocation of Buqayq facilities Air defense systems. this facilities at least defended by one Patriot PAC-2/3 , 3 Skyguard and one Shahine Batteries.*





skyshadow said:


> *Geolocation of Buqayq facilities Air defense systems. this facilities at least defended by one Patriot PAC-2/3 , 3 Skyguard and one Shahine Batteries.*





Saudi Arabia shows debris from missiles and drowns they say were used on the #Aramco oil facility.

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## skyshadow

Caspian Parsi said:


> Saudi Arabia shows debris from missiles and drowns they say were used on the #Aramco oil facility.
> 
> 
> View attachment 580021



looks like the engine is Iranian

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## Hack-Hook

Surenas said:


> Strong U.S. government statements have ruled out Yemen (on September 14) and Iraq (on September 16), so the focus is narrowing to a direct strike originating from Iran.


Iran is north east not north west / west direction.


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## skyshadow

Caspian Parsi said:


> Saudi Arabia shows debris from missiles and drowns they say were used on the #Aramco oil facility.
> 
> 
> View attachment 580021


those are new drones aren't they????


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## Hack-Hook

Surenas said:


> Similar finesse was visible in Iran’s May 12 attacks in the Fujairah anchorage off the United Arab Emirates, where four ships had their hulls expertly holed without causing the vessels to spill oil, sink, or suffer massive fires.


There is no evidence that came from iran .only baseless claims.

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## skyshadow

well they said it was Ya-Ali cruise missiles

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## Mithridates

skyshadow said:


> well they said it was Ya-Ali cruise missiles


first glance looked like chamrosh but obviously it can't be that. seems like something modified for long range attack, also why the wreckage is (almost) untouched??

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## skyshadow

Mithridates said:


> first glance looked like chamrosh but obviously it can't be that. seems like something modified for long range attack, also why the wreckage is (almost) untouched??


most of those are the one's that were failed to reach there targets as SA said



Mithridates said:


> first glance looked like chamrosh but obviously it can't be that. seems like something modified for long range attack, also why the wreckage is (almost) untouched??


no not chamrosh its this uav one from 2014

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## Bahram Esfandiari

skyshadow said:


> most of those are the one's that were failed to reach there targets as SA said
> 
> 
> no not chamrosh its this uav one from 2014



The Saudis Themselves claim that all 18 UAVs hit their target so why is that drone shown in near complete pieces if it hit its intended target?

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## TheImmortal

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> The Saudis Themselves claim that all 18 UAVs hit their target so why is that drone shown in near complete pieces if it hit its intended target?



Because there wasn’t a secondary explosion? Not all of the drones hit massive tanks. Some hit specific areas to cause critical but not catastrophic damage to the area. Ie. iran purposely kept the damage low on certain targets.

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## Myself

The engine is clearly a variant of TJ-100, giving us some ideas about the missile weight and performance. Information plate is not clear enough, but does not look the original manufacturer:

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## Bahram Esfandiari

TheImmortal said:


> Because there wasn’t a secondary explosion? Not all of the drones hit massive tanks. Some hit specific areas to cause critical but not catastrophic damage to the area. Ie. iran purposely kept the damage low on certain targets.


So they used a "Suicide" drone without a warhead? How does that make any sense? Your claim that they wanted to minimize the damage also makes 0 sense considering they have shut down 50% of Saudi oil production for at least 6 months! You keep repeating U.S and Saudi claims as if its the gospel!!!

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## skyshadow

Myself said:


> The engine is clearly a variant of TJ-100, giving us some ideas about the missile weight and performance. Information plate is not clear enough, but does not look the original manufacturer:
> 
> View attachment 580086
> 
> View attachment 580089



well we did reverse engineered that so it could very well be Iranian version of it

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## NaCon

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> So they used a "Suicide" drone without a warhead? How does that make any sense? Your claim that they wanted to minimize the damage also makes 0 sense considering they have shut down 50% of Saudi oil production for at least 6 months! You keep repeating U.S and Saudi claims as if its the gospel!!!


This is a decoy drone.


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## Bahram Esfandiari

NaCon said:


> This is a decoy drone.


 What "Decoy Drone"? the Saudis were absolutely clueless that there was even an attack until their refineries went up in flames!

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## Caspian Parsi

skyshadow said:


> those are new drones aren't they????


Looks like it, The only slimier drone in Iran`s arsenal is Toofan which is used for the same purpose 




Toofan (tempest) is an Iranian UAV which has been developed to find and destroy the enemies through optical explorer. In this type of mission, the UAV is designed for battle and with small dimensions, it could approach to the enemy without being detected and its high speed makes nay reaction extremely difficult.

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## NaCon

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> What "Decoy Drone"? the Saudis were absolutely clueless that there was even an attack until their refineries went up in flames!


The houthis announced that decoy drones were used in the attack

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## Hack-Hook

Caspian Parsi said:


> Looks like it, The only slimier drone in Iran`s arsenal is Toofan which is used for the same purpose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toofan (tempest) is an Iranian UAV which has been developed to find and destroy the enemies through optical explorer. In this type of mission, the UAV is designed for battle and with small dimensions, it could approach to the enemy without being detected and its high speed makes nay reaction extremely difficult.


Nonsense toffan only have a range of 100km.
Well unless they gonna claim we launch them from inside KSA .
https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/71119/صاعقه-و-طوفان-برای-دشمنان-سفره-ماهی-برای-آیندگان-عکس


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## skyshadow

To accuse *Iran* directly, the North moved during SaudiArabia Conference and in such a way that the Khurais strikes are no longer coming from the South West,

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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> To accuse *Iran* directly, the North moved during SaudiArabia Conference and in such a way that the Khurais strikes are no longer coming from the South West,


When they resort to forgery it shows how credible the rest of their claims are.

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## TheImmortal

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> So they used a "Suicide" drone without a warhead? How does that make any sense? Your claim that they wanted to minimize the damage also makes 0 sense considering they have shut down 50% of Saudi oil production for at least 6 months! You keep repeating U.S and Saudi claims as if its the gospel!!!



I have not heard it will be 6 months, I heard weeks.

Certain areas of the terminal, for example the area where hydrogen sulfide is removed from the oil (a critical step as refineries cannot accept Saudi oil if it has this corrosive chemical in it) was hit critically but not castrophically according to reports. Meaning it would be offline for a period of time, but not so long so that would justify a counter attack.

Another was the tanks, they were penetrated but the damage was not enough to cause the entire tank to be obliterated.

Iran’s attack was a message to the world protecting tankers in PG is useless as Iran can easily reduce oil production all across Middle East if it so chooses. It’s making good on it’s threats.

Iran’s goal wasn’t to destroy abqaiq or cause such massive damage that the US/Saudi arabia would be pressured to attack iranian oil facilities.

You have to learn to read the geopolitical chess game instead of being narrow minded and thinking everything US says is lies and Everything Iran says is truth. In end, take what everyone says with a grain salt, but move forward assuming it’s true till it’s not.

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## Caspian Parsi

Hack-Hook said:


> Nonsense toffan only have a range of 100km.
> Well unless they gonna claim we launch them from inside KSA .
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/71119/صاعقه-و-طوفان-برای-دشمنان-سفره-ماهی-برای-آیندگان-عکس


I said SIMILAR , who know this might be the upgrade version of it ,and its quiet possible the Hothies went deep into KSA to launch their attack ,They are brave and have big balls

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## arashkamangir

TheImmortal said:


> I have not heard it will be 6 months, I heard weeks.
> 
> Certain areas of the terminal, for example the area where hydrogen sulfide is removed from the oil (a critical step as refineries cannot accept Saudi oil if it has this corrosive chemical in it) was hit critically but not castrophically according to reports. Meaning it would be offline for a period of time, but not so long so that would justify a counter attack.
> 
> Another was the tanks, they were penetrated but the damage was not enough to cause the entire tank to be obliterated.
> 
> Iran’s attack was a message to the world protecting tankers in PG is useless as Iran can easily reduce oil production all across Middle East if it so chooses. It’s making good on it’s threats.
> 
> Iran’s goal wasn’t to destroy abqaiq or cause such massive damage that the US/Saudi arabia would be pressured to attack iranian oil facilities.
> 
> You have to learn to read the geopolitical chess game instead of being narrow minded and thinking everything US says is lies and Everything Iran says is truth. In end, take what everyone says with a grain salt, but move forward assuming it’s true till it’s not.



Precisely. This was a very thoroughly thought out operation. They most likely did series of extensive cost benefit analysis and risk assessment analysis and had oil and gas experts select the right targets to meet their mission criteria. They knew exactly what to hit, how to hit, and how strong to hit while keeping human casualties to zero. They likely tweaked the explosives amount to ensure the right amount of damage is delivered and not a bit more.

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## jack 86000

*Concept of a high-speed multi-purpose air-launched UAV*
12 February 2015

*Echo of the Cold War*



X-55 (Kh-55) cruise missile designed in 1981 could fly over long distances, possessed high aerodynamic qualities, larger fuel reserves and minimal weight. The fact that it had to be based on a carrier-aircraft dictated the small size of the missile, requiring to fold a variety of aggregates – from wings to the engine and the wingtip of the fuselage. X-55 designers were awarded with the most prestigious state awards for their innovative project..


*Air launch *







This photograph was made on 24 October 1974 during the first ever air launch of the Minuteman I Intercontinental ballistic missile from the C-5 Galaxy carrier-aircraft. Henry Kissinger, former U.S. Secretary of State, used this historic launch as a diplomatic leverage to convince the USSR to sign SALT II treaty in 1979.

Enlarge picture ⇪

*Mini-jet *






Bede BD-5 airplane (first flight in September 1971, 150 airplanes produced) got a chance for a second life in 2011 thanks to the successful design solutions used in this plane. BD-5 is equipped with TJ-100 engine produced in the Czech Republic, which made it a modern and affordable mini-jet on the market..

Enlarge picture ⇪





*Return delivery*

Soviet engineers designed X-55 (Kh-55) “Kent” cruise missile as a response to American BGM-109 Tomahawk (time frames of design proccess 1972-1980). The missile, as well as its modifications, has surpassed its rival across the Atlantic in terms of design solutions and technical specifications. 

It explains why the production of X-55 was transferred from Kharkiv State Aircraft Manufacturing Company (Kharkiv, Ukraine) to “Avitek” Vyatka Machine Building Enterprise (Kirov, Russia) in 1986, which was just a few years before the downfall of the Soviet Union in 1991 and the emergence of dozens of new nation-states, including independent Ukraine. According to the Russian media, the Kirov-based plant still produces this fearsome weapon. 

Technical idea of X-55 could be modernised further in order to ensure its return as an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), which would fill a niche in the multi-purpose high-speed UAVs market that could reach the speed of 800 km/h. By using a flying aircraft as a launching pad, as well as a feature of the UAV return back to the vehicle after the mission (see the Newsletter from 5 September 2012), it would enable to conduct a quick, secure and cheap (1) monitoring (2) delivery of small cargoes (up to 100 kg) with an opportunity to deploy it through a mini-ramp and (3) combat missions. 

The main difference between Kent 2.0 UAV concept from X-55 is the use of modern carbon composite materials, a Czech-made TJ-100 turbojet engine with FADEC system and a lifetime of 3,600 flight hours, as well as modern rotating cameras (three camera gimbal, multiple camera configurations) instaled under the glass fairing UAV.

*Project features*
One of the key tasks to solve in the Kent 2.0 UAV is what type of engine should be used.






All positive features of MS-400 notwithstanding, the UAV requires an extended lifetime in order to return back to the carrier-aircraft and to be used multiple times. TJ-100 Turbojet engine designed and produced by PBS Velká Bíteš (Czech Republic) can fulfil these requirements. After it acquired an EU certificate and a history of a successful use of more than 500 engines since 2008, TJ-100 became the preferable option for many innovative projects. The project has promising commercial perspectives, considering that the engine is equipped with FADEC system and has a comfortable price of 50,000 EUR.

_Innovations and Continuity. _

AN-72 / 74 were considered as carrier-airplanes for Kent 2.0 UAV, mainly because of the former excellent flight characteristics and a long-term exploitation history, including its use in military action. The high positioning of engines and opportunities to attach Kent 2.0 UAVs under the wing racks (AN-72P) or in the reel holder inside the aircraft also played in favour of choosing AN-72 / 74 as the base for a new UAV. Kent 2.0 UAV would be equipped with a non-satellite control system that operators have in AN-74 cabin (working space for a UAV operator and a necessary payload would take up to 8 working places).





Such a system would enable independent control of the eight UAVs at the distance of up to 100 km from the carrier-aircraft. The UAVs would be able to fly further for two hours, using waypoints with GPS coordinates. It is also important that Kent 2.0 UAV would be able to fulfil its tasks on lower height (from 50m) at a speed of 0.7 Mach. Once Kent 2.0 UAV enters a 100 km zone from the carrier-aircraft, it transfers collected visual information to the operator if necessary. The UAV operator and the airplanes’ loadmaster are responsible for mooring of the UAV back to AN-74. AN-178 and Embraer KC-390 could be used as option carrier-airplanes for the UAV. An approximate price for Kent 2.0 UAV is estimated to be between $400,000 and $500,000 (actual product only). This is considerably cheaper than the $1.59 million worth BGM-109 Tomahawk that could be used just once. The price for X-55 is not available for the public use, however, it seems to be relatively similar to that of the U.S. missile.

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## skyshadow

*

Dezful* ballistic missile and *Hormoze-1* ballistic missile and *Persian Gulf* ballistic missile






















*Qader* Anti ship cruise missile










*

Fajr - 5 and Fajr - 3* rackets systems ( *Fajr - 5* missile color is *yellow* and *Fajr - 3* missile color is *green* )



























there is other long range missile that i have never seen before like *Velaiat - 2 long range Anti ship cruise missile and Velaiat - 4 short range Anti ship cruise missile*

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## skyshadow

*

Khoramshaher ballistic missile with a new warhead




*

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## yavar

clear violation UNSCR 2231 even worse you can see rear section warhead which has got nuclear components
in conclusion nuclear missile.
but I am 100% sure that we will adenine that and make justification

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## yavar



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## SHAHED

yavar said:


> clear violation UNSCR 2231 even worse you can see rear section warhead which has got nuclear components
> in conclusion nuclear missile.
> but I am 100% sure that we will adenine that and make justification



BS

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## skyshadow

*we had Khorramshahr - 2 ballistic missile from 2011 that almost 10 years a decade ago   *

*



*

*سردار احمد وحیدی* سر جنگی *برخی از موشک‌های بالستیک ایرانی به سرعت 14 تا 15 برابر سرعت صوت یا ماخ (در حدود 4600 تا 5000 متر بر ثانیه) رسیده* و قابلیت اجرای عملیات ضد کشتی در برد بلند را دارد. این موشک و سر جنگی آن را می‎توان سریع‎ترین سلاح موشکی ایرانی دانست.

  

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1398/06/31/2101898/گزارش-تجهیز-مهلک-ترین-موشک-بالستیک-ایران-به-کلاهک-جدید-سومین-سر-جنگی-خرمشهر-چه-ویژگی-هایی-دارد

Commander Ahmad Vahidi said warhead of some Iranian ballistic missiles can reach speeds of *14 to 15 times the speed* *of sound* or *mach 15* (about 4600 to 5000 m / s) and can perform long-range anti-ship operations, this missile and its warhead can be considered the fastest Iranian missile weapon.

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## yavar



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## skyshadow

*Dezful* ballistic missiles

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## Aramagedon

skyshadow said:


> *we had Khorramshahr - 2 ballistic missile from 2011 that almost 10 years a decade ago   *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *سردار احمد وحیدی* سر جنگی *برخی از موشک‌های بالستیک ایرانی به سرعت 14 تا 15 برابر سرعت صوت یا ماخ (در حدود 4600 تا 5000 متر بر ثانیه) رسیده* و قابلیت اجرای عملیات ضد کشتی در برد بلند را دارد. این موشک و سر جنگی آن را می‎توان سریع‎ترین سلاح موشکی ایرانی دانست.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1398/06/31/2101898/گزارش-تجهیز-مهلک-ترین-موشک-بالستیک-ایران-به-کلاهک-جدید-سومین-سر-جنگی-خرمشهر-چه-ویژگی-هایی-دارد
> 
> Commander Ahmad Vahidi said warhead of some Iranian ballistic missiles can reach speeds of *14 to 15 times the speed* *of sound* or *mach 15* (about 4600 to 5000 m / s) and can perform long-range anti-ship operations, this missile and its warhead can be considered the fastest Iranian missile weapon.


Nothing can stop khorramshahr. 


yavar said:


> clear violation UNSCR 2231 even worse you can see rear section warhead which has got nuclear components
> in conclusion nuclear missile.
> but I am 100% sure that we will adenine that and make justification


Interesting.

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## TheImmortal

Khorramshahr is an old missile from nearly a decade ago developed under Tehrani Moghaddam.

It is clear Iran has suffered setbacks in its long range missile development project. No new LR missile has been introduced since Sejill and Khorramshahr which were within years of each other.

Work at Shahrud is going slowly as engine stand tests that even Tehrani was doing back in years ago.

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## mohsen

Traitor Reformist government is the only obstacle in Iran's advancement:
افشاگری استاد پناهیان از ورشکستگی یک شرکت سازنده موشک - آپارات!

Imagine these scientists migrate to Arab monarchies, they will be treated like kings, but in *TRAITOR REFORMIST GOVERNMENT OF IRAN* they go to jail !

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## Mr Iran Eye

This delirium serious on this forum. After the delirium of a nuclear warhead because of the new missile's head, here is the argument that Iran will not have advanced on its missiles. it's not serious here, really !!

The arrival of the Emad missile was there to prove that Iran improved their missiles on technique, power and precision. Let's see what the ianian authorities said about this missile in 2015:

- Emad (Supporter) Strategic Medium-range ballistic missile
(MRBMs); Iran's first maneuverable re-entry vehicle (MARV) equipped with SATNAV to evade enemy's anti missile systems and drastically improve accuracy.
The third generation of Iranian liquid-propelled Strategic MRBMs, after Shahab and Ghadr series -

And this is not cause that the shape of a missile does not change that its component does not change. Since 10 other variety of missile as in the series Ghadr 110 have seen the day. It's completely wrong and really demagoguery to say that Iran has not improved their missile series. The facts show that there is a constant improvement of missiles so there are no setbacks on the horizon ..

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## TheImmortal

Mr Iran Eye said:


> This delirium serious on this forum. After the delirium of a nuclear warhead because of the new missile's head, here is the argument that Iran will not have advanced on its missiles. it's not serious here, really !!
> 
> The arrival of the Emad missile was there to prove that Iran improved their missiles on technique, power and precision. Let's see what the ianian authorities said about this missile in 2015:
> 
> - Emad (Supporter) Strategic Medium-range ballistic missile
> (MRBMs); Iran's first maneuverable re-entry vehicle (MARV) equipped with SATNAV to evade enemy's anti missile systems and drastically improve accuracy.
> The third generation of Iranian liquid-propelled Strategic MRBMs, after Shahab and Ghadr series -
> 
> And this is not cause that the shape of a missile does not change that its component does not change. Since 10 other variety of missile as in the series Ghadr 110 have seen the day. It's completely wrong and really demagoguery to say that Iran has not improved their missile series. The facts show that there is a constant improvement of missiles so there are no setbacks on the horizon ..



Reading comprehension must be your weakness.

I said no NEW long range missiles. Emad is a warhead not a Missile.

Iran’s 3 LR ballistic missiles can be broken down in Nodongs(Shahab family and its successors), Sejill (Ashura and Sejill 1&2), and Khorramshahr (1&2).

Since 2011, Iran has developed ZERO new engine designs for long range missiles. In that same timeframe, NK has developed 4-5 new medium & long range missiles including 1-2 ICBMs missiles.

Face facts, Iran’s LR Missile program is stagnated so they have shifted focus to accuracy and improvements on fateh Family.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Reading comprehension must be your weakness.
> 
> I said no NEW long range missiles. Emad is a warhead not a Missile.
> 
> Iran’s 3 LR ballistic missiles can be broken down in Nodongs(Shahab family and its successors), Sejill (Ashura and Sejill 1&2), and Khorramshahr (1&2).
> 
> Since 2011, Iran has developed ZERO new engine designs for long range missiles. In that same timeframe, NK has developed 4-5 new medium & long range missiles including 1-2 ICBMs missiles.
> 
> Face facts, Iran’s LR Missile program is stagnated so they have shifted focus to accuracy and improvements on fateh Family.



Could we say that Iran is clandestinely working on better long range missiles? 

There was a great interview done by an Iranian interviewer by the name of Nader on his own program called the Nader's Show in which he interviewed IRGC aerospace general Hajizadeh. In the interview Hajizadeh made some bold and resolutely confident claims that Iran can accurately destroy/target objects well within a 2000km range. This to me signifies a continued yet undisclosed LR missile program. I don't see why the death of Mogoddham would just completely stifle this effort from top to bottom.

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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Could we say that Iran is clandestinely working on better long range missiles?
> 
> There was a great interview done by an Iranian interviewer by the name of Nader on his own program called the Nader's Show in which he interviewed IRGC aerospace general Hajizadeh. In the interview Hajizadeh made some bold and resolutely confident claims that Iran can accurately destroy/target objects well within a 2000km range. This to me signifies a continued yet undisclosed LR missile program. I don't see why the death of Mogoddham would just completely stifle this effort from top to bottom.



Tehrani was not the only one that died that day, so did 20+ other people. All that is still a drop in bucket. At the time it was predicted the long range program would be set back 2-3 years.

The amount of Iranian engineer who have died working on missiles probably exceeds 100 if not 200 people since the 90’s.

And 2000KM anti ship missile is based on Iran’s current BM Family. Not a new design.

Sharud base shows Iran is working on ICBM engines or the very least a 5,000-6000KM range missile.

However, it shouldn’t take 15 years for Iran to develop a LR missile (assuming Tehrani started working on it in 2005).

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Tehrani was not the only one that died that day, so did 20+ other people. All that is still a drop in bucket. At the time it was predicted the long range program would be set back 2-3 years.
> 
> The amount of Iranian engineer who have died working on missiles probably exceeds 100 if not 200 people since the 90’s.
> 
> And 2000KM anti ship missile is based on Iran’s current BM Family. Not a new design.
> 
> Sharud base shows Iran is working on ICBM engines or the very least a 5,000-6000KM range missile.
> 
> However, it shouldn’t take 15 years for Iran to develop a LR missile (assuming Tehrani started working on it in 2005).



Fair enough, but what's stopping us from assuming that Iran isn't improving existing LR missile designs instead of creating entirely new ones? Respectively speaking it would be logical to accept that Iranian aerospace engineers are continuing to improve the accuracy of current designs in order to match what the adversaries have to offer so to speak.

To be completely honest, I don't see why Iran would need to publicly unveil new missiles constantly or at all. These missiles are top-secret and sensitive to Iran's national security, not all weapons developed should be released into public domain for people to comment about lol. Some IRGC generals not too long ago (within the past months) said Iran has other undisclosed missiles in its arsenal. I think this lends credence to Irans vast Missile program which encompasses Short to long range missiles. Granted I do think you're spot on in saying that Iran has shifted primary focus on the Fateh line of BMs. This is an undeniable reality. But I would like to believe Iran is still hard at work making and improving Long range missiles of various makes and types.

Not saying you're wrong at all, what you say is perfectly acceptable.

Admittedly I have less doubt in IRGC capabilities now that Iran has put on display its indigenous might time and time again.

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## Aramagedon

New Khorramshar can reach range of 6000 kms...


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Battle of Waterloo

Ziggurat “TepeSialk“ said:


> New Khorramshar can reach range of 6000 kms...
> 
> 
> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


Khorramshahr is modelled on Hwasong 10 not 12, Hwasong 10 has 4000km range, which is what some experts speculate to be the 'true' range of Khorramshahr with a lighter 500-700kg warhead (instead of announced 1500-1800kg).

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> Traitor Reformist government is the only obstacle in Iran's advancement:
> افشاگری استاد پناهیان از ورشکستگی یک شرکت سازنده موشک - آپارات!
> 
> Imagine these scientists migrate to Arab monarchies, they will be treated like kings, but in *TRAITOR REFORMIST GOVERNMENT OF IRAN* they go to jail !


ex-fundamental moderate

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## Battle of Waterloo

Hack-Hook said:


> ex-fundamental moderate


Rouhani is extremely close to the IR establishment for many decades and is not a "reformist" and never was!

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## mohsen

Hack-Hook said:


> ex-fundamental moderate


*Hypocrite *fundamentalist in the past, *pure *reformist today.

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## Mr Iran Eye

[QUOTE = "TheImmortal, post: 11787126, member: 183490"] La compréhension de la lecture doit être votre faiblesse.

J'ai dit pas de nouveaux missiles à longue portée. Emad est une ogive, pas un missile.

Les missiles balistiques 3 LR iraniens peuvent être décomposés en Nodongs (famille Shahab et ses successeurs), Sejill (Ashura et Sejill 1 & 2) et Khorramshahr (1 & 2).

Depuis 2011, l'Iran a mis au point ZERO de nouveaux moteurs pour les missiles à longue portée. Dans le même temps, NK a développé 4 ou 5 nouveaux missiles à moyenne et longue portée, dont 1 à 2 missiles ICBM.

En réalité, le programme iranien de missiles LR est en train de stagner, de sorte que l'accent a été mis sur la précision et l'amélioration de la famille Fateh. [/ QUOTE]

Still as always demagoguery and unworthy understanding of a child. The misille Emad is a misisle with a new ultra mordern head and new specificity as described. Your analyzes are often all wrong here.

Iran is still making progress by improving their missiles, it is undeniable. Research on missile enhancement and new-game production often takes years to complete. There is no stagnation in the missile program, it's just in your head.

And let the North Korean missiles in their place, the Iranian missile program are now more advanced since the making of the Sejil. And for the engines, that of Khorramshahr is different and we see it with the naked eye. It is very clear that Iran is moving forward on this subject as well.

Stagnation is in your head and not in the reality of the facts. Improvement is not about accuracy, you have to learn to think. I say congratulations to Iran because they are advancing all over the front and in the most surprising way with the budget they have.

And Iran also has secret weapons that they have not made public and I have an intuition on one of these weapons ..... Iran well surprise us again

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## TheImmortal

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Rouhani is extremely close to the IR establishment for many decades and is not a "reformist" and never was!



He also led secret negotiations with Regan administration shortly after the revolution in order to keep Iran in Western influence. He also had ties to Israel who selected him once again for negotiations with Regan administration for detente in late 80’s.

So is this the man you want to become Rahbar one day?

The West/CIA/Mossad know Rouhani well. He’s a man they can “work with”.

Rouhani is a dangerous individual who must not be allowed to reach upper echelons of the Republic. He is Iran’s Gorbachev.

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## N_Al40

TheImmortal said:


> He also led secret negotiations with Regan administration shortly after the revolution in order to keep Iran in Western influence. He also had ties to Israel who selected him once again for negotiations with Regan administration for detente in late 80’s.
> 
> So is this the man you want to become Rahbar one day?
> 
> The West/CIA/Mossad know Rouhani well. He’s a man they can “work with”.
> 
> Rouhani is a dangerous individual who must not be allowed to reach upper echelons of the Republic. He is Iran’s Gorbachev.



Very interesting, source?


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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> *Hypocrite *fundamentalist in the past, *pure *reformist today.


whatever in the past , moderate today


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## Raghfarm007

There are videos of Rohani talking about hanging people in Friday prayers to teach people a lesson. Now he is a moderte! He also said that we should disband the army just a few months before Saddam attacked...... Rohani is as suspecioues as Antarinejd.....both have changed their names to mask their real origins.... typical of closet Jooz

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> He also led secret negotiations with Regan administration shortly after the revolution in order to keep Iran in Western influence. He also had ties to Israel who selected him once again for negotiations with Regan administration for detente in late 80’s.
> 
> So is this the man you want to become Rahbar one day?
> 
> The West/CIA/Mossad know Rouhani well. He’s a man they can “work with”.
> 
> Rouhani is a dangerous individual who must not be allowed to reach upper echelons of the Republic. He is Iran’s Gorbachev.


USSR was going to fall no matter who was in power , now it could be 10 year sooner or 10 year later
it had so much fundamental problem

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## Battle of Waterloo

Hack-Hook said:


> USSR was going to fall no matter who was in power , now it could be 10 year sooner or 10 year later
> it had so much fundamental problem


some people say the same is true for IRI ...


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## Hack-Hook

Raghfarm007 said:


> There are videos of Rohani talking about hanging people in Friday prayers to teach people a lesson. Now he is a moderte! He also said that we should disband the army just a few months before Saddam attacked...... Rohani is as suspecioues as Antarinejd.....both have changed their names to mask their real origins.... typical of closet Jooz


he had so much worse speech


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## Aramagedon

mohsen said:


> *Hypocrite *fundamentalist in the past, *pure *reformist today.





TheImmortal said:


> He also led secret negotiations with Regan administration shortly after the revolution in order to keep Iran in Western influence. He also had ties to Israel who selected him once again for negotiations with Regan administration for detente in late 80’s.
> 
> So is this the man you want to become Rahbar one day?
> 
> The West/CIA/Mossad know Rouhani well. He’s a man they can “work with”.
> 
> Rouhani is a dangerous individual who must not be allowed to reach upper echelons of the Republic. He is Iran’s Gorbachev.


May he die from an stroke sooner.


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## loanranger

Greetings Persians I come in peace. Since you guys are really into missile programmes would you like to tell me how good Pakistani ICBMs are and hiw would you rate the Pakistani missile programme in general.

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## Battle of Waterloo

loanranger said:


> Greetings Persians I come in peace. Since you guys are really into missile programmes would you like to tell me how good Pakistani ICBMs are and hiw would you rate the Pakistani missile programme in general.


Pakistan does not have ICBMs... But Shaheen III is solid fuel with 2500-3000km range and Ghauri II is liquid fuel based on Scud/Rodong with 1800km range (similar to Shahab-3). 

Doesn't seem that Pakistan has manoeuvrable RVs/precision warheads, but with nuclear weapons that's not necessary. Seems that Pakistan's short range BMs are based on old Scuds and not very accurate.

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## loanranger

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Pakistan does not have ICBMs... But Shaheen III is solid fuel with 2500-3000km range and Ghauri II is liquid fuel based on Scud/Rodong with 1800km range (similar to Shahab-3).
> 
> Doesn't seem that Pakistan has manoeuvrable RVs/precision warheads, but with nuclear weapons that's not necessary. Seems that Pakistan's short range BMs are based on old Scuds and not very accurate.


Thanks pretty solid review.

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## skyshadow

loanranger said:


> Greetings Persians I come in peace. Since you guys are really into missile programmes would you like to tell me how good Pakistani ICBMs are and hiw would you rate the Pakistani missile programme in general.



I LOVE Shaheen III man that missile is a beauti but you guys stop on that i had hops you goo higher in range any plans for that? 

you know there is not that much competition for ballistic missiles but for sure you guys stand tall in that category you were ahead of us but you stopped and Iran reached up to you but our doctrine is different you are nuclear power we do surgical strikes so CEP of under 20 meters was a must for Iran and we reach that goal.

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## TheImmortal

N_Al40 said:


> Very interesting, source?



https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/09/20/irans-new-president-has-a-fan-club-in-u-s-intelligence-vets/

This is just one recent article that talks about Rouhani being well known in intelligence circles. 

If you do enough digging you will see he may be from the IR “cloth” but much like Rafsanjani he is willing to sell his country in order to be on the West side.

If that is the case, why topple the Shah? Iran could have been a western puppet this whole time.

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## loanranger

skyshadow said:


> I LOVE Shaheen III man that missile is a beauti but you guys stop on that i had hops you goo higher in range any plans for that?
> 
> you know there is not that much competition for ballistic missiles but for sure you guys stand tall in that category you were ahead of us but you stopped and Iran reached up to you but our doctrine is different you are nuclear power we do surgical strikes so CEP of under 20 meters was a must for Iran and we reach that goal.


So do you guys really want to fight the US and were you guys really behind the saudi Aramco drone strike/ bombings?


----------



## Aramagedon

loanranger said:


> So do you guys really want to fight the US and were you guys really behind the saudi Aramco drone strike/ bombings?


God knows..


----------



## DoubleYouSee

loanranger said:


> Greetings Persians I come in peace. Since you guys are really into missile programmes would you like to tell me how good Pakistani ICBMs are and hiw would you rate the Pakistani missile programme in general.


Babur cruise missile is respectful in my thoughts....

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## skyshadow

loanranger said:


> So do you guys really want to fight the US and were you guys really behind the saudi Aramco drone strike/ bombings?



who know's if Iran was behind the attack or not but we do not want a war we want to be superpower of West Asia and North Africa not just militarily we want the soft power too and we have a good reason for that we have been attacked for 8 years 2 million dead 800 billion dollar in damage to our infrastructure and we can not let that happen again and for that all of West Asia most be in our control in including Israel we have our power in North Africa too so you see its not a fight with US or Arab countries it is a fight for power, soft and hard power, all other countries are doing it too but for now we have came out above all of them that's the goal that's the end game some one will come out to be superpower from West Asia all the way to North Africa.

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## drmeson

loanranger said:


> Greetings Persians I come in peace. Since you guys are really into missile programmes would you like to tell me how good Pakistani ICBMs are and hiw would you rate the Pakistani missile programme in general.



shame on you for not greeting me I am Azeri Iranian 

Anyways 

Your real deal is Shaheen III which is an MRBM and Babur CM. How accurate they are remains to be seen. Pakistani tests do not show missiles hitting targets usually. 

Rest of the old stuff was DPRK purchases from Hwasong Rodong Family. 

You do not own ICBM. May be another stage in Shaheen III can turn it into a IRBM or ICBM with MIRV.

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## loanranger

skyshadow said:


> who know's if Iran was behind the attack or not but we do not want a war we want to be superpower of West Asia and North Africa not just militarily we want the soft power too and we have a good reason for that we have been attacked for 8 years 2 million dead 800 billion dollar in damage to our infrastructure and we can not let that happen again and for that all of West Asia most be in our control in including Israel we have our power in North Africa too so you see its not a fight with US or Arab countries it is a fight for power, soft and hard power, all other countries are doing it too but for now we have came out above all of them that's the goal that's the end game some one will come out to be superpower from West Asia all the way to North Africa.


Just get Isreal for us we will be more than happy. We might even join you.



drmeson said:


> shame on you for not greeting me I am Azeri Iranian
> 
> Anyways
> 
> Your real deal is Shaheen III which is an MRBM and Babur CM. How accurate they are remains to be seen. Pakistani tests do not show missiles hitting targets usually.
> 
> Rest of the old stuff was DPRK purchases from Hwasong Rodong Family.
> 
> You do not own ICBM. May be another stage in Shaheen III can turn it into a IRBM or ICBM with MIRV.


We do have the Ababeel MIRV



drmeson said:


> shame on you for not greeting me I am Azeri Iranian
> 
> Anyways
> 
> Your real deal is Shaheen III which is an MRBM and Babur CM. How accurate they are remains to be seen. Pakistani tests do not show missiles hitting targets usually.
> 
> Rest of the old stuff was DPRK purchases from Hwasong Rodong Family.
> 
> You do not own ICBM. May be another stage in Shaheen III can turn it into a IRBM or ICBM with MIRV.


Sorry I dont know what Azeri means....Azerbaijan maybe?

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## skyshadow

loanranger said:


> Just get Isreal for us we will be more than happy. We might even join you.
> 
> 
> We do have the Ababeel MIRV
> 
> 
> Sorry I dont know what Azeri means....Azerbaijan maybe?



Israel is playing a lost game, we already cornered them with Hizbullah and Hamas and soon with Syria and Iraq too, killing some fighters here and there will not change the out come

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## Caspian Parsi

Battle of Waterloo said:


> some people say the same is true for IRI ...





loanranger said:


> Just get Isreal for us we will be more than happy. We might even join you.
> 
> 
> We do have the Ababeel MIRV
> 
> 
> Sorry I dont know what Azeri means....Azerbaijan maybe?


Not all Iranian are Persians my Friend , so to be politically correct you can refer to us as Iranians, and yes his from Azerbaijan [north west Iran ] which mean The Land of Fire in Parsi .

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## Battle of Waterloo

Caspian Parsi said:


> Not all Iranian are Persians my Friend , so to be politically correct you can refer to us as Iranians, and yes his from Azerbaijan [north west Iran ] which mean The Land of Fire in Parsi .


why you quote me??


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## loanranger

Caspian Parsi said:


> Not all Iranian are Persians my Friend , so to be politically correct you can refer to us as Iranians, and yes his from Azerbaijan [north west Iran ] which mean The Land of Fire in Parsi .


Okay then my Iranian friend.

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## drmeson

loanranger said:


> Okay then my Iranian friend.



Merci Azizam

Guys anyone here saw the Sejjil hitting target with precision video ?


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## skyshadow

drmeson said:


> Merci Azizam
> 
> Guys anyone here saw the Sejjil hitting target with precision video ?



in water?


----------



## Aramagedon

Too many good comments under this video.

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## drmeson

skyshadow said:


> in water?



Yes near coast. Its from distance but it confirms the GRV on Sejjil

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## Battle of Waterloo

drmeson said:


> Yes near coast. Its from distance but it confirms the GRV on Sejjil


Can you post the video? It's a new launch?


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## skyshadow

drmeson said:


> Yes near coast. Its from distance but it confirms the GRV on Sejjil


yes i think i have that if i find it i will post it here



Battle of Waterloo said:


> Can you post the video? It's a new launch?


10 years ago


----------



## Battle of Waterloo

skyshadow said:


> yes i think i have that if i find it i will post it here
> 
> 10 years ago


When was last known launch of Sejjil since then? I don't remember seeing any!


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## skyshadow

Battle of Waterloo said:


> When was last known launch of Sejjil since then? I don't remember seeing any!



they test them regularly but they do not show us, the last known one's were from 2014 when they tested optimized Sejjil-2



drmeson said:


> Yes near coast. Its from distance but it confirms the GRV on Sejjil



*see from 19:20 until 19:33





*


and this is from *Indian ocean 2011*

*see from 7:20 until 7:46*

*



*
*



*

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## TheImmortal

Caspian Parsi said:


> Not all Iranian are Persians my Friend , so to be politically correct you can refer to us as Iranians, and yes his from Azerbaijan [north west Iran ] which mean The Land of Fire in Parsi .



With that logic then Not all Iranians are Iranian.

As Iran means “land of the Aryans” and not all races within Iran can trace their roots to one of the Aryan races.

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## Battle of Waterloo

TheImmortal said:


> With that logic then Not all Iranians are Iranian.


I have no idea how you reached this conclusion from what Caspian Parsi wrote, that is a total non sequitur. 

Iranian = nationality

Persian = ethnicity
Kurd = ethnicity
Azeri = ethnicity
Armenian = ethnicity 

Get it?

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## Caspian Parsi

Battle of Waterloo said:


> why you quote me??


Apologies,my bad


----------



## drmeson

skyshadow said:


> they test them regularly but they do not show us, the last known one's were from 2014 when they tested optimized Sejjil-2
> 
> 
> 
> *see from 19:20 until 19:33
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> and this is from *Indian ocean 2011*
> 
> *see from 7:20 until 7:46*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *



Yes one can somehow predict that Sejjil has a GRV otherwise how come camera was expecting it to fall on a precised location



TheImmortal said:


> With that logic then Not all Iranians are Iranian.
> 
> As Iran means “land of the Aryans” and not all races within Iran can trace their roots to one of the Aryan races.



Iran only has Iranic race and its Irano-turk offshoot carrying Azeris, Turkmen, Ghashqai

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## skyshadow

*good article to read*

*UNDER THE RADAR, IRAN’S CRUISE MISSILE CAPABILITIES ADVANCE*



*https://warontherocks.com/2019/09/under-the-radar-irans-cruise-missile-capabilities-advance/*

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## skyshadow

*i mean is it is it not???? *

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## Sineva

That new warhead is a real puzzle....




The closest thing it reminds me of is this:




Its not an exact match,but it is very similar.....

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## yavar

TheImmortal said:


> Reading comprehension
> Since 2011, Iran has developed ZERO new engine designs for long range missiles.
> 
> Face facts, Iran’s LR Missile program is stagnated .




Only if you saying that that IRI has not publicised any new missile and engine , Yes that is fact we have not officially done that


But the fact is and if Americans who show the Saterlite images of last test on UNSC close section 2018 and if make them public and I am sure you will change your mind
















این کار اخیر هم تست مهمی بود.
سردار حاجی‌زاده البته به اسم این موشک اشاره‌ای نکرد.
https://www.farsnews.com/news/13970919000816/تایید-تست-اخیر-موشک-بالستیک-پاسخ-سردار-حاجی‌زاده-به-واکنش-آمریکایی‌ها

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## skyshadow

*Fajr-5 and Fajr-3 and Zelzal rockets




*

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## VEVAK

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> More lies from the U.S. If they had detected Iran "readying weapons" why was Iraq originally suspected?





TheImmortal said:


> *U.S. Satellites Detected Iran Readying Weapons Ahead Of Saudi Strike, Officials Say
> 
> U.S. surveillance satellites detected Iran readying drones and missiles at launch sites in Iran before Saudi oil facilities were attacked on Saturday, according to two Defense Department officials.
> 
> The imagery has not been publicly released. The officials tell NPR that U.S. intelligence views the activity as "circumstantial evidence" that Iran launched the strike from its own soil.
> 
> *



I would say it's more misleading then a lie because Iran's annual Military parades were coming up so yea mid September of every year Iran readies weapons for it's parade and in the weeks prior Iran usually tests or showcases new weapons, moves around fighter jets,..... 

So US Sat's picking up movement of Iranian weapons around mid September is no lie because it's an annual event that happens every year! However, it's misleading as hell!

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> *i mean is it is it not???? *



A good number of Yemeni UAV's also look similar to Iranian UAV's but that doesn't necessarily mean they were built in Iran! Yes it's quite possible and likely that they received spec's, a few hard to produce parts and components from Iran but the rest Yemeni's did themselves.

Fact is Yemen is under a Naval blocked and transporting something as large as a bunch of cruise missiles will likely be noticed however if you break down the vital and hard to produce components with specs given I'm positive the Yemeni's have enough capability, tools and knowhow to use those parts to produce them domestically.

But at the end of the day supporting one side over the other is NOT the same thing as getting directly involved and at the end of the day Saudi's started the war against Yemen & the decision of continuation of that war again rests with the Saudi's. During the Iran-Iraq war the Saudi's practically paid for Saddam's military despite the fact that they were the aggressors. Today and even before the war in Yemen the Saudi's funded MEK and other anti Iranian terrorist groups that have conducted attacks on Iranian soil so this is a bed Saudi's have made for themselves and can get out of at will and the Saudi's should be fully aware that the weapons used even if the vital components were from Iran are at the end of the day a far cry from Iran's more advanced capabilities that have not been publicized and have been mass produced in the past decade and the type of weapons Iran would use would likely demolish facilities like Aramco beyond repair countrywide

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## skyshadow

*are they Dezful or Zolfaghar ? choose carefully*

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## Mithridates

guys did you noticed our mobin looks alike US made ryan 324 scarab drone??
though the designs are different importantly regarding the weight and range (scarab is 400 kg heavier and has almost 5 times more range) but the rudders place, engine exhaust and overall shape are almost the same.
more importantly F-4 can carry the ryan's drone so Aerodynamically it would be ok for them to carry mobin too.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/model-324.htm

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## Myself

Any news on Ghadir?

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## DoubleYouSee

Myself said:


> Any news on Ghadir?
> View attachment 581726


what is point in qadir long range solid missile while we have sedjil?!


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## zectech

skyshadow said:


> *good article to read*
> 
> *UNDER THE RADAR, IRAN’S CRUISE MISSILE CAPABILITIES ADVANCE*
> 
> 
> 
> *https://warontherocks.com/2019/09/under-the-radar-irans-cruise-missile-capabilities-advance/*



And there answers who launched the cruise missiles against the Saudis. Now we need evidence of these long range drones.

From your article:
_
In June 2019, a cruise missile that the Yemeni group calls the Quds-1 hit Abha Airport in the border region of Saudi Arabia. At a press conference, a Saudi official described the missile as the Ya Ali but, as analysts have pointed out, parts of the wreckage were reminiscent of the design of the Soumar/Hoveyzeh._

Houthis had access to long range cruise missiles capable of reaching the Persian Gulf from Yemen, and had previously used long range cruise missile. So who launched the cruise missiles at Saudi oil production is answered right here: the Houthis.

Their own information is damning their thesis. Now if you can link another one of these miners for iron, on how the Houthis had long range drones, google search engines are sh*t nowadays. 10 years ago, you could within hours of the attacks on Saudi oil production, have the evidence that the Houthis had both the drone and cruise missiles for the attack. But not any more, you need to read and read and wait and wait and read some more.

I fully believe the Iranians. And back in June, the Houthis had what appears to be the Hoveyzeh (or the Soumar), as is shown in the wreckage of the attacks on the Abha Airport. If they had them in June, they could have easily had them for this most recent attack. And now they are threatening UAE with an attack.

And the Saudis at the previous attack were providing bad information that these were short range missiles, like they are doing in this more recent attack on the Amarco oil.

What looks to be the case is the Saudis and other zionists don't want to admit this is from the Houthis, for one they want 'justification for a war' and more importantly - two, zionists don't want to blame the Houthis, who are not easily controllable. If they blame the Iranians, they Iranians could tell the Houthis to lay off more attacks because the Iranians are taking heat. If the zionists simply blamed the Houthis, everybody would laugh if they tried to sanction the Houthis in the UN or what are the Saudis going to do? bomb more funeral in Northern Yemen like the jews did to the Palestinians. Saudis are already bombing Yemen into the stone age and Houthis are winning. If the Saudis blame Yemen, there is not anything the Saudis can do without risking more attacks in retaliation. If they blame the Iranians, Saudis can pressure no more attacks by the Houthis through the Iranians.

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## yavar

Myself said:


> Any news on Ghadir?
> View attachment 581726





yavar said:


> Only if you saying that that IRI has not publicised any new missile and engine , Yes that is fact we have not officially done that
> 
> 
> But the fact is and if Americans who show the Saterlite images of last test on UNSC close section 2018 and if make them public and I am sure you will change your mind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> این کار اخیر هم تست مهمی بود.
> سردار حاجی‌زاده البته به اسم این موشک اشاره‌ای نکرد.
> https://www.farsnews.com/news/13970919000816/تایید-تست-اخیر-موشک-بالستیک-پاسخ-سردار-حاجی‌زاده-به-واکنش-آمریکایی‌ها


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## Sineva

Interesting article on irans cruise missiles from H I Suttons site:
http://www.hisutton.com/Iran_Cruise-Missiles.html
Its a good site to check out for all of the stuff on submarines/sdv/narco boats and the like.

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178975086323421184

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## Caspian Parsi

CCTV footage of the Impact on Aramco

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow

*New images of Muharram Operation Released*
*


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
*

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## Websorber

*Iran has been working on underground missile cities for over 30 years*

*



*

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## PeeD

With the new guidance kit, Nazeat rockets of the army will transform from purely fin stabilized, then rocket spin-stabilized battlefield rockets, to precision strike wind-corrected/guided rockets.

They are now enabled to strike enemy targets deep behind their lines, such a HQ's and troop concentrations. Together with their tactical UAVs, this will give them a good boost in firepower, albeit at the lowest spectrum of tactical level.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> With the new guidance kit, Nazeat rockets of the army will transform from purely fin stabilized, then rocket spin-stabilized battlefield rockets, to precision strike wind-corrected/guided rockets.
> 
> They are now enabled to strike enemy targets deep behind their lines, such a HQ's and troop concentrations. Together with their tactical UAVs, this will give them a good boost in firepower, albeit at the lowest spectrum of tactical level.



I'd like to see low cost, low payload(under 300lb warhead) battlefield cruise missiles launched from a multiple launcher to go along side them. Due to continued advancements in Defense systems your attack can't come in one at a time and should come in swarms.... where you 1st launch your UAV's & UCAV's then your cruise missiles and finally your battlefield missiles towards enemy position timed to hit nearly simultaneously to both overwhelm any potential enemy defense and create psychological shock to demoralize them. 

I'd also like to see drones like the Saegheh UCAV deploying 20 or so ~2lb ordnances over a targeted area because even with unguided ordnances with the proper pre programed ballistic calculations based on speed and altitude and a simple add-on of a cheap low cost electric gyro stabilizer on your unguided ordnances it would still give you a system far more accurate than unguided MLRS systems

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## skyshadow

*Army Labik-1 rocket 















*

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## Bahram Esfandiari

skyshadow said:


> *Army Labik-1 rocket
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



This makes a great gift for Hezbollah and our other dear friends!

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## Shams313

skyshadow said:


> *Army Labik-1 rocket
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Accuracy at another level....

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## raptor22

skyshadow said:


>


?


----------



## skyshadow

raptor22 said:


> ?



the projectile that hit SA oil refinery

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> the projectile that hit SA oil refinery


Isn't it a cruise missile?!

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## skyshadow

DoubleYouSee said:


> Isn't it a cruise missile?!



it doesn't look like one, the engine is not beneath the projectile it's in the back like a rocket engine

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> it doesn't look like one, the engine is not beneath the projectile it's in the back like a rocket engine



Can’t really tell anything with a high speed missile blurring due to the camera, everything could simply be a distortion.

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## Bahram Esfandiari

skyshadow said:


> *Army Labik-1 rocket
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Iran should invest in developing Warheads for its ballistic missiles that detonate above ground before impact to increase their lethality. The majority of the energy from the impact of current warheads is absorbed by the ground reducing the blast and shrapnel effect of the impact.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> Can’t really tell anything with a high speed missile blurring due to the camera, everything could simply be a distortion.


yes that why i said it do not look like one it could be anyone's guess at this point.



Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Iran should invest in developing Warheads for its ballistic missiles that detonate above ground before impact to increase their lethality. The majority of the energy from the impact of current warheads is absorbed by the ground reducing the blast and shrapnel effect of the impact.


you are right but i think Iran already have airburst fuel warheads its not that advance thermobaric weapons already being mass produced by Iran i do not see any obstacles that proven IRGC from building one for every missile that the use.

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## skyshadow

*soooooooooooo what now???* *did we built something so advanced that freaked them out that much or it's just noise to scare people to elect him?????*



TEL AVIV: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, still trying to form a new government, *said Israel must increase its defense spending by “many billions immediately and then many billions every year”* as the threat from Iran “*has intensified in recent weeks*.


https://breakingdefense.com/2019/10...llions-immediately-to-counter-iran-netanyahu/

https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...mmediately-to-fight-iranian-threat-netanyahu/

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> *soooooooooooo what now???* *did we built something so advanced that freaked them out that much or it's just noise to scare people to elect him?????*
> 
> 
> 
> TEL AVIV: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, still trying to form a new government, *said Israel must increase its defense spending by “many billions immediately and then many billions every year”* as the threat from Iran “*has intensified in recent weeks*.
> 
> 
> https://breakingdefense.com/2019/10...llions-immediately-to-counter-iran-netanyahu/
> 
> https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...mmediately-to-fight-iranian-threat-netanyahu/


Nah man,its a way to shake down the americans to get yet MORE money out of them.Its the zionist version of a good old "protection racket",except that here its the americans paying the israelis to protect israel from iran[LOL!]

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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> *soooooooooooo what now???* *did we built something so advanced that freaked them out that much or it's just noise to scare people to elect him?????*
> 
> 
> 
> TEL AVIV: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, still trying to form a new government, *said Israel must increase its defense spending by “many billions immediately and then many billions every year”* as the threat from Iran “*has intensified in recent weeks*.
> 
> 
> https://breakingdefense.com/2019/10...llions-immediately-to-counter-iran-netanyahu/
> 
> https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...mmediately-to-fight-iranian-threat-netanyahu/


Well they are wondering when Yemenis can do such a devastating attack on KSA's refinery despite all the odds what can Iran do?!

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## skyshadow

*Netanyahu said pushing NIS 1b air defense plan to counter Iran threats*


*




*



Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is pushing to advance a huge air-defense project aimed at countering the threat of an attack from Iran, the Kan public broadcaster reported Sunday.
*
The NIS 1 billion ($290 million) project would place particular focus on defending the country against cruise missile attacks, similar to strikes on Saudi oil facilities last month blamed on Iran.*



https://www.timesofisrael.com/netan...-1b-air-defense-plan-to-counter-iran-threats/


https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...ystem-to-defend-against-Iranian-attack-603899https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...ystem-to-defend-against-Iranian-attack-603899


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## Russel

skyshadow said:


> *Netanyahu said pushing NIS 1b air defense plan to counter Iran threats*
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is pushing to advance a huge air-defense project aimed at countering the threat of an attack from Iran, the Kan public broadcaster reported Sunday.
> *
> The NIS 1 billion ($290 million) project would place particular focus on defending the country against cruise missile attacks, similar to strikes on Saudi oil facilities last month blamed on Iran.*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.timesofisrael.com/netan...-1b-air-defense-plan-to-counter-iran-threats/
> 
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...ystem-to-defend-against-Iranian-attack-603899https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...ystem-to-defend-against-Iranian-attack-603899


So the advanced state of the art missile defence system they bought and developed is of no use against cruise missile!

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## skyshadow

Russel said:


> So the advanced state of the art missile defence system they bought and developed is of no use against cruise missile!


yes it seems so.

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## TheImmortal

Russel said:


> So the advanced state of the art missile defence system they bought and developed is of no use against cruise missile!



Each missile defense system has its strengths and weaknesses.

Israel was semi-prepared against rockets (from HZ and Hamas) and Missiles from Iran and HZ, but not a saturated cruise missiles/stealth cruise missile attack.

Even Iran is not adequately prepared until it’s version of Pantsir/Tor-M1 gets mass produced.

The one thing Israel has to its advantage is it has a very small territory to protect thus can oversaturate the area with radars and batteries.

However, no matter what Israel fields it will not be able to stop the ballistic missile/cruise missile/rocket salvo that will happen in war time. Best they can do is increase their interception rate.

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## PeeD

One of the important systems from the Chinese Oktober parade was the YJ-18 missile:






Modeled on the Russian Klub, it is a approach I wish for Irans future sea skimming missiles.

The Chinese also have the YJ-12 a Moskit equivalent but like the Onyx/Yakhont these just offer faster reaction time at the cost of range. Their ramjet propulsion is also expensive.

So if a ramjet engine is desired, then only for a large, long range missile like the DF-100 which was also unveiled during the parade.

A YJ-18 like missile with a rocket powered mach-3 kill stage and a mini-jet carrier stage is both cost effective, long ranged and equally deadly as a Moskit.

Iran already has deadlier weapons with the Khalije Fars series and potential Zolfaghar AshBM variants. So if it is deemed necessary to have a secondary sea skimming kill component, then a YJ-18 like missile would be ideal.

Those are two components are already very deadly but if more components are desired then a DF-100 and then a DF-17 like component would be best.
DF-100 would be a ramjet powered very high altitude cruise missile with very long range and at speeds that let it survive thermal stress.
DF-17 equivalent would allow for high thermal stress levels, skip ramjet sustainer but at the higher cost necessary for shielding.
Both DF-100 and DF-17 exploit the upper atmospheric layer as approach area to decrease warning time and weaknesses of current ABM systems. The Zolfaghar has a gliding phase too but for a much shorter duration, at steeper approach angle.

A 3 component carrier killer approach with a YJ-18-like sea skimming component, a Zolfaghar with HGV as DF-17-like shallow trajectory, upper atmospheric component and a Zolfaghar AshBM as steep diving trajectory component would be the ideal solution.
Once targeting systems are advanced enough, this could then be upscaled to the 2000km range in the next decade. That would skip the ramjet approach and use current strengths.

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## skyshadow

*Iran unveils kit to convert artillery rockets into guided missiles*




“There is nothing new in the conversion itself, they have been doing it for years, and they already showed conversion kits for the Fatah 110 family of missiles,” Uzi Rubin, one of the pioneers of Israel’s earliest attempts at missile defense, told The Times of Israel.

*“What’s new here are the aerodynamics of the winglets — very unique, unseen in Iran to date and unseen in any other country. Going to indigenous design rather than copying others indicates self-confidence. The purpose of the new and unique aerodynamics is probably to increase the maneuverability of the converted rockets.”




https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-unveils-kit-to-convert-artillery-rockets-into-guided-missiles/*

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## skyshadow

he just said *Fateh family of missiles* have a range of *more* then *1000 KM *



*How did Iran become a missile power?*
*





*

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## Aramagedon

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## skyshadow

*Israel Boasts New Operational Cruise Missile Defense*













*According to updated intelligence, the Iranians are investing big sums to upgrade their cruise missiles and build new ones. Israel has been worried for some time by this threat and improved its Barak-8 air defense missile systems to try and minimize any capabilities gaps.*


*https://breakingdefense.com/2019/10/israel-boasts-new-operational-cruise-missile-defense/*

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## skyshadow

"*Iran is seeking to develop now precision-guided munitions*, *missiles that can hit any target in the Middle East with a circumference of five to 10 metres*," Netanyahu said.

"They want to place them in Iraq and in Syria, and to convert Lebanon's arsenal of 130,000... rockets to precision-guided munitions."

He added that "*they seek also to develop that, and have already begun to put that in Yemen, with the goal of reaching Israel from there too*."














*“Iran is seeking to develop now precision-guided munitions, missiles that can hit any target in the Middle East with a circumference of five to ten meters,” Netanyahu said according to an English-language statement from his office. “They are developing this in Iran.”*



https://news.yahoo.com/netanyahu-accuses-iran-wanting-strike-israel-yemen-150513976.html

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## Battle of Waterloo

Bibi barks as usual for his agenda, who cares?

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## skyshadow

they are afraid from something, something very big, a weapon that forced them to drive fundings from civilian to military project it could be a bluff too, you know the big bad bogey that Iran is, who knows why they are in so much hurry??? i believe its missile as *Netanyahu said a missile with CEP of 5 meters and a range of almost 2000 km* so thats why i post this here  





*Israel will have to up security spending to counter Iran, PM says*


*Speaking to the Jewish leaders about Israel’s security challenges, which he says come from Iran, Netanyahu says Israel will need to increase the amount of money it spends on arms.

“We have to change our priorities,” he says, noting that the next government will have the difficult task of spearheading efforts to transfer funding from civilian to military purposes.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...up-security-spending-to-counter-iran-pm-says/*


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## Mithridates

skyshadow said:


> they are afraid from something, something very big, a weapon that forced them to drive fundings from civilian to military project it could be a bluff too, you know the big bad bogey that Iran is, who knows why they are in so much hurry??? i believe its missile as *Netanyahu said a missile with CEP of 5 meters and a range of almost 2000 km* so thats why i post this here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel will have to up security spending to counter Iran, PM says*
> 
> 
> *Speaking to the Jewish leaders about Israel’s security challenges, which he says come from Iran, Netanyahu says Israel will need to increase the amount of money it spends on arms.
> 
> “We have to change our priorities,” he says, noting that the next government will have the difficult task of spearheading efforts to transfer funding from civilian to military purposes.
> 
> 
> https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...up-security-spending-to-counter-iran-pm-says/*


I think one part of their issue is Iranian upgrade package for unguided rockets. that would potentially turn Hezbollah 150 k rockets to strategic assets. but about the part that we are arming ansar Allah with long range pin point missiles we should wait.

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## skyshadow



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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> they are afraid from something, something very big, a weapon that forced them to drive fundings from civilian to military project it could be a bluff too, you know the big bad bogey that Iran is, who knows why they are in so much hurry??? i believe its missile as *Netanyahu said a missile with CEP of 5 meters and a range of almost 2000 km* so thats why i post this here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel will have to up security spending to counter Iran, PM says*
> 
> 
> *Speaking to the Jewish leaders about Israel’s security challenges, which he says come from Iran, Netanyahu says Israel will need to increase the amount of money it spends on arms.
> 
> “We have to change our priorities,” he says, noting that the next government will have the difficult task of spearheading efforts to transfer funding from civilian to military purposes.
> 
> 
> https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...up-security-spending-to-counter-iran-pm-says/*



His career is in jeopardy amid all the corruption scandals. He is pulling out his Iran bogeyman card again.

Whenever Israel senses weakeness they go quiet, whenever you hear them speaking aloud it’s propaganda.

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## Surenas

TheImmortal said:


> His career is in jeopardy amid all the corruption scandals. He is pulling out his Iran bogeyman card again.
> 
> Whenever Israel senses weakeness they go quiet, whenever you hear them speaking aloud it’s propaganda.



Nah.

I do believe that Israel's current intelligence assesment, based on credible indicators, is that Iran has made a firm and strategic decision to no longer cope with Israeli attacks on its assets in the region. The cruise- and drone attacks on those Saudi facilities really changed the balance of power in the region, and the practical proof of Iran's precision-missile/drone capabilities stunned and shocked pretty much every actor in the Middle East.

The Saudis and Emiratis paralyzed, especially after the US outright refused to stand in front of them against Iran, which led them to quickly approach Iran for negotiations. The United States on its own experimented with switching its CENTCOM command and control centre from Qatar to South Carolina, as the new reality kicked in. And Israel now has made changes to its regional policy as well. Their claim that Iran has adopted a new regional posture is correct, and they are rightfully panicking at the moment.

Read this interview with one of their analysts:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/270569

And this one with the head of the research division in Israel's IDF military intelligence:

https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/09/26/iran-could-fire-cruise-missiles-at-israel-from-iraq/

Israel is realizing the strategic nightmare they are getting in.

At this point we really need to ask the question whether Iran has purposefully deceived its enemies, because if it did, then Iran has played this one beautifully. Try to grasp the situation. Iran's enemies, especially Israel and Saudi, invested billions of dollars in air defense systems to prevent Iran's ballistic missiles from ever reaching them. Israel with its Arrow 3 and the Saudis with their imported Patriot systems. And while Iran let them believe that it was strategically investing in its ballistic missile capabilities, it covertly worked on its cruise- and drone capabilities under the radar that are more precise and stealthy than ever.

It explains why Iran regularly boosted about its ballistic missiles, while being overall quiet about its cruise missiles and suicide drones. It appears now that this was all intentional.

So now Iran's enemies are coping with the new reality that they extremely vulnerable. That they blindly invested in one defense sector while Iran secretly developed another one. It explains why Israel's politicians and military officials are ringing the alarm bells, claiming that they quickly need to increase their defense budget with billions of shekels to counter the new threat. They have been caught with their pants down. Iran outplayed them all.

It will take them years to develop and operate new weaponry that is able to counter this capability. This means that Iran has the upper hand in the region for the coming years. Welcome to the new strategic reality.

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## TheImmortal

Surenas said:


> Nah.
> 
> I do believe that Israel's current intelligence assesment, based on credible indicators, is that Iran has made a firm and strategic decision to no longer cope with Israeli attacks on its assets in the region. The cruise- and drone attacks on those Saudi facilities really changed the balance of power in the region, and the practical proof of Iran's precision-missile/drone capabilities stunned and shocked pretty much every actor in the Middle East.
> 
> The Saudis and Emiratis paralyzed, especially after the US outright refused to stand in front of them against Iran, which led them to quickly approach Iran for negotiations. The United States on its own experimented with switching its CENTCOM command and control centre from Qatar to South Carolina, as the new reality kicked in. And Israel now has made changes to its regional policy as well. Their claim that Iran has adopted a new regional posture is correct, and they are rightfully panicking at the moment.
> 
> Read this interview with one of their analysts:
> 
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/270569
> 
> And this one with the head of the research division in Israel's IDF military intelligence:
> 
> https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/09/26/iran-could-fire-cruise-missiles-at-israel-from-iraq/
> 
> Israel is realizing the strategic nightmare they are getting in.
> 
> At this point we really need to ask the question whether Iran has purposefully deceived its enemies, because if it did, then Iran has played this one beautifully. Try to grasp the situation. Iran's enemies, especially Israel and Saudi, invested billions of dollars in air defense systems to prevent Iran's ballistic missiles from ever reaching them. Israel with its Arrow 3 and the Saudis with their imported Patriot systems. And while Iran let them believe that it was strategically investing in its ballistic missile capabilities, it covertly worked on its cruise- and drone capabilities under the radar that are more precise and stealthy than ever.
> 
> It explains why Iran regularly boosted about its ballistic missiles, while being overall quiet about its cruise missiles and suicide drones. It appears now that this was all intentional.
> 
> So now Iran's enemies are coping with the new reality that they extremely vulnerable. That they blindly invested in one defense sector while Iran secretly developed another one. It explains why Israel's politicians and military officials are ringing the alarm bells, claiming that they quickly need to increase their defense budget with billions of shekels to counter the new threat. They have been caught witn their pants down. Iran outplayed them all.



If Iran strikes Israel, Israeli defense doctrine requires they strike back Harder. That is why they have been able to be so successful deterring the Arabs so long.

Any Iran attack on Israel would have far more costs than benefits. I am sure Iran as pragmatic as it is would not view this in the lens of worthwhile.

Meanwhile it was Iran that violated the unwritten red lines of Israel by entrenching itself in Syria. If Israel decided to entrench itself in Azerbaijan and then start building military bases and then start putting precision BMs there, do you think Iran would sit idly by?

It’s like a frog in a pot allowing itself to be boiled to death by someone who slowly turns up the temperature.

That is the reason why Iran hasn’t retaliated up till now.

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## Surenas

TheImmortal said:


> If Iran strikes Israel, Israeli defense doctrine requires they strike back Harder. That is why they have been able to be so successful deterring the Arabs so long.



Because the Arabs never fielded similar weaponry as Iran does right now. They manage to deter the Arabs for so long because the Arabs lacked capabilities to hit rear areas in Israel. Notwithstanding the widely unreliable and imprecise SCUD missiles they have had, and never knew how to use effectively.



> Any Iran attack on Israel would have far more costs than benefits. I am sure Iran as pragmatic as it is would not view this in the lens of worthwhile.



Israel is the active player in this whole ordeal. Not Iran. And while Iran is pragmatic, Israel is so too. It appears that it has already accepted the new balance in the region.



> Meanwhile it was Iran that violated the unwritten red lines of Israel by entrenching itself in Syria. If Israel decided to entrench itself in Azerbaijan and then start building military bases and then start putting precision BMs there, do you think Iran would sit idly by?



Red lines that Iran never adhered to, and still doesn't. So if Tehran made the strategic decision to entrench itself in Syria, it was expected that at one point it wouldn't accept any violations against it. And it seems like that moment has arrived.



> It’s like a frog in a pot allowing itself to be boiled to death by someone who slowly turns up the temperature.
> 
> That is the reason why Iran hasn’t retaliated up till now.



I would disagree. Iran's unwillingness to retaliate were never doctrine-related or because it accepted self-defined red lines of its enemies. It probably didn't retaliate because it assessed the time was not right and that the regional situation was still unclear or not in its favours. Perhaps even because a certain faction within Iran's power circles were more caution in their approach than the new players in power atm.

Remember Iran's more aggressive posture in the region ever since the summer coincided with a shuffle in the top ranks of its military:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-...e-irgc-force-weeks-after-terror-blacklisting/

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## Surenas

Surenas said:


> I do believe that Israel's current intelligence assesment, based on credible indicators, is that Iran has made a firm and strategic decision to no longer cope with Israeli attacks on its assets in the region. The cruise- and drone attacks on those Saudi facilities really changed the balance of power in the region, and the practical proof of Iran's precision-missile/drone capabilities stunned and shocked pretty much every actor in the Middle East.



Israeli newspaper Haaretz, leftist and usually highly critical of Netanyahu, is mentioning this now as well:

*Iranian Threat to Israel Is Real, Even if It Serves Netanyahu’s Interests*

"The prime minister speaks in closed forums in almost apocalyptic terms about the possible confrontation with Iran. It seems Netanyahu is relying on, among other things, intelligence assessments that the Iranians decided to establish a new balance of deterrence by which it will respond to any further Israeli attack against their bases and arms convoys on the northern front. It is of course possible that Netanyahu’s legal and political troubles are influencing his assessments, but it’s hard to ignore everything. The military, particularly the air force, remains on high alert. Anyone living near an air force base has noticed this development in recent weeks."

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...-if-it-serves-netanyahu-s-interests-1.8056353

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## Surenas

More:

*All air defense systems on alert amid Iran attack fears — general*

Israeli Air Force chief Amikam Norkin on Wednesday said the military’s multi-tiered network of air defense systems were “on alert” amid a general threat of attack by Iran.

In recent weeks, the military has begun to believe that Tehran intends to eventually retaliate against Israel’s regular airstrikes against its forces and proxies in the region.

The Israel Defense Forces believes this could take the form of a large-scale attack involving cruise missiles and attack drones, similar to the strike on Saudi Arabia’s Aramco petroleum facility that was attributed to Iran.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Iran intends to attack Israel from Yemen, which may make intercepting such a strike more difficult as the IDF’s intermediate and long-range air defenses are better positioned to shoot down incoming attacks from Israel’s north, rather than from the south.

“Even as we speak, Arrow, Patriot, David’s Sling and Iron Dome batteries are on alert,” Norkin said Wednesday night at a graduation ceremony for air defense officers.

The air defense chief was referring to each of the military’s air defense systems, from the Arrow and Patriot systems, which are designed to destroy incoming long-range missiles and aircraft, to the mid-range David’s Sling, and the Iron Dome system, which can shoot down short-range rockets and small drones.

“The challenge of air defense has become more complicated. Joining the threat of missiles and rockets are now attack drones and cruise missiles,” he said.

Unlike ballistic missiles, which usually fly through a high arc on the way to the target, cruise missiles and drones fly at low altitude, making them harder to detect and intercept.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/air-defense-batteries-being-put-on-alert-amid-iranian-attack-fears/

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## TheImmortal

If Iran is trying to attack Israel it would likely be under the shroud of plausible deniability so that the final actor could either be Iran/SAA/militant group.

However, Israel by going on and alerting the entire world is effectively trying to BLOCK Iran by attacking by removing the plausible deniability card. Thus any attack would automatically be attributed to Iran. Israel is hoping this forces Iran to forgo a large scale attack at a time when it is internationally isolated.

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## Surenas

The 'war between wars', the name the Israelis gave to their campaign against Iranian entrenchment in the region, is ending according to generally well-informed Israeli journalist Ben Caspit. This is a pivotal moment in modern Iranian history guys. Iran has reached a kind of balance with its regional enemies in its favours that is unprecented and ground-breaking. Those drone-and cruise missile attacks against those Saudi oil facilities truly changed everything.

And my assessment that Israel made a strategic misjudgement, as a consequence of Iranian deception, by completely focussing on countering its ballistic missiles capabilities, while Iran covertly worked on developing extremely accurate and stealthy cruise missiles and attack drones, is confirmed imo in his column.

--------------------------------------------------

*Israel’s dilemma over its ‘war between wars’*

Almost three years have passed since the onset of the deployment of what the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) nicknamed “Mabam,” a Hebrew acronym for "the campaign between the wars," or "war between the wars." The goals of the campaign were well defined and precise: to prevent Iran from entrenching itself in the Syrian space and to stop Hezbollah from strengthening itself via Iranian resources. At the top of the list was the “guided precision missile project.” At the beginning, Israel was extremely careful not to refer to this campaign openly. But as time went on, Israeli officials — from the air force commander to the chief of staff to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu — began to brag about the number of assaults attributed to Israel in the Syrian space, and afterward in Iraqi territory as well.

As of this point in time, it seems that this campaign between the wars is dying down; its time has passed. Reports of mysterious assaults against weapons convoys or infrastructure facilities identified with Iran have almost totally disappeared. This doesn’t mean that such an attack is impossible; almost certainly, sporadic attacks of this type will still appear here and there, but the chart does not lie: According to all the signs, the campaign’s era that we have known since 2016 is coming to an end. Unfortunately, there is no chance that peace will reign instead. All the sides need to hope that the campaign between the wars will not be replaced by a full-scale war between Israel and Iran.

“The ‘campaign between the wars’ policy has reached the end of the road,” a former high-ranking Israeli security source told Al-Monitor this week, on condition of anonymity. “There are several cumulative reasons for this: First, the Iranians have moved their activities from Syria to Lebanon. Israel hasn’t attacked Lebanon for more than 13 years now. Second, the messages sent by Russia have become problematic for Israel. Third, Iranian self-confidence has grown due to American passivity and to Trump’s hasty abandonment of the region. Israel understands that this campaign can only descend into war, and it is unclear if there will be someone in Jerusalem who would make such a decision now.”

Yet other high-placed sources disagree with this assessment, especially among the highest echelons of Blue and White. According to political sources, the former chiefs of staff in the party leadership (Benny Gantz, Moshe Ya’alon and Gabi Ashkenazi) are concerned that Netanyahu’s current sorry political state, together with his desperate status on the criminal indictment front, may actually free the prime minister’s inner brake mechanisms. They fear that all his worries accumulated could create a critical mass that will change Netanyahu’s DNA altogether. In other words, instead of someone cautious of adventures, Netanyahu might hope to get off the hook via adventures. “He must not be allowed to pull the rope too far,” one of the Blue and White top officials told Al-Monitor. “The situation is more sensitive and explosive than ever before; the prime minister is more shaken and undermined than ever before. Considering the fact that the prime minister has no real Cabinet [to consult with], we all need to be very worried indeed.”

The military-diplomatic dilemma facing Israel today is significant and real. In 2017, the “precision project” of Hezbollah’s rockets was only theoretical. Israel attacked the Hezbollah infrastructure in Syria and the convoys that transported rockets from Syria to Lebanon; this served to significantly hinder the entire project. One year ago, it was estimated that Hezbollah had only a few precise rockets, a maximum of several dozen. This year, the situation is changing rapidly. Israel does not attack in Lebanon, so Iranian efforts to create precise missiles has moved there. Hezbollah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah is on his way to an arsenal of precise rockets that will reach thousands of units. “We are talking about the classic tie-breaker,” a high-level military source told Al-Monitor recently. “If Hezbollah will be able to make precise hits on IDF bases, the air force’s airports, intel centers or power concentrations — that is a different story altogether. Israel absolutely cannot reach such a situation, which brings up memories of the Egyptian anti-aircraft missiles in the 1973 Yom Kippur War.”

On Oct. 28, Prime Minister Netanyahu announced, in a public speech, that Iran recently erected long-range missiles on Yemen’s territory. In that context, a senior defense figured told Al-Monitor that "they are trying to create a 360-degree battlefront. They are succeeding because they now have the ability to attack us from almost all directions."

So much for the bad news. Recently, there have also been positive developments as far as Israel is concerned. Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Yadlin (former head of Aman military intelligence) told Al-Monitor this week that “the Iranians have their own headaches, in light of the large public protests in Lebanon and Iraq. True, the protests in Lebanon are not actually anti-Iran, but the disturbances in Iraq are directly aimed against [Quds Force commander] Gen. Qasem Soleimani. This is a new mini Arab Spring taking place in two countries through which Iran is trying to outflank Israel,” Yadlin asserted.

In the current state of affairs, Israel is not the only country facing a dilemma. Iran and, mainly, Hassan Nasrallah may find themselves at a crossroads very soon, when crucial decisions will have to be made. Should Israel make the decision to initiate a large-scale strike against the precision project on Lebanese territory, then Nasrallah and Soleimani will have to make an immediate decision: whether to retaliate powerfully and drag the entire region into a conflict that will be much more destructive than all preceding conflicts. Since Nasrallah’s standing in Lebanon is unsteady and since the Lebanese public has had enough of its leaders and rulers, a war may send Lebanon dozens of years back in time and end Nasrallah’s career. “We will not be the only ones to weigh the situation carefully before our next move,” an Israeli security source told Al-Monitor. “Nasrallah is not in such a great position either.”

Meanwhile, the sides are preparing for whatever comes. *The IDF is making modifications in its aerial detection, interception and protection systems. The goal is to reinforce its ability to intercept cruise missiles, to pinpoint them in time. Israel is not at its best in this field, because over recent years it directed its efforts to the interception of rockets and high-trajectory missiles.* The decisions waiting for the decision-makers in Jerusalem and Beirut in the next months will be truly fateful, critical ones. At this stage, neither of the two countries above have an elected, functioning government, and that is also a problem.

This twilight zone can impose restraint on both sides. But it can also create chaos.

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/or...an-syria-lebanon-strategy-us-trump-yemen.html

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## TheImmortal

Surenas said:


> The 'war between wars', the name the Israelis gave to their campaign against Iranian entrenchment in the region, is ending according to generally well-informed Israeli journalist Ben Caspit. This is a pivotal moment in modern Iranian history guys. Iran has reached a kind of balance with its regional enemies in its favours that is unprecented and ground-breaking. Those drone-and cruise missile attacks against those Saudi oil facilities truly changed everything.
> 
> And my assessment that Israel made a strategic misjudgement, as a consequence of Iranian deception, by completely focussing on countering its ballistic missiles capabilities, while Iran covertly worked on developing extremely accurate and stealthy cruise missiles and attack drones, is confirmed imo in his column.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> *Israel’s dilemma over its ‘war between wars’*
> 
> Almost three years have passed since the onset of the deployment of what the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) nicknamed “Mabam,” a Hebrew acronym for "the campaign between the wars," or "war between the wars." The goals of the campaign were well defined and precise: to prevent Iran from entrenching itself in the Syrian space and to stop Hezbollah from strengthening itself via Iranian resources. At the top of the list was the “guided precision missile project.” At the beginning, Israel was extremely careful not to refer to this campaign openly. But as time went on, Israeli officials — from the air force commander to the chief of staff to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu — began to brag about the number of assaults attributed to Israel in the Syrian space, and afterward in Iraqi territory as well.
> 
> As of this point in time, it seems that this campaign between the wars is dying down; its time has passed. Reports of mysterious assaults against weapons convoys or infrastructure facilities identified with Iran have almost totally disappeared. This doesn’t mean that such an attack is impossible; almost certainly, sporadic attacks of this type will still appear here and there, but the chart does not lie: According to all the signs, the campaign’s era that we have known since 2016 is coming to an end. Unfortunately, there is no chance that peace will reign instead. All the sides need to hope that the campaign between the wars will not be replaced by a full-scale war between Israel and Iran.
> 
> “The ‘campaign between the wars’ policy has reached the end of the road,” a former high-ranking Israeli security source told Al-Monitor this week, on condition of anonymity. “There are several cumulative reasons for this: First, the Iranians have moved their activities from Syria to Lebanon. Israel hasn’t attacked Lebanon for more than 13 years now. Second, the messages sent by Russia have become problematic for Israel. Third, Iranian self-confidence has grown due to American passivity and to Trump’s hasty abandonment of the region. Israel understands that this campaign can only descend into war, and it is unclear if there will be someone in Jerusalem who would make such a decision now.”
> 
> Yet other high-placed sources disagree with this assessment, especially among the highest echelons of Blue and White. According to political sources, the former chiefs of staff in the party leadership (Benny Gantz, Moshe Ya’alon and Gabi Ashkenazi) are concerned that Netanyahu’s current sorry political state, together with his desperate status on the criminal indictment front, may actually free the prime minister’s inner brake mechanisms. They fear that all his worries accumulated could create a critical mass that will change Netanyahu’s DNA altogether. In other words, instead of someone cautious of adventures, Netanyahu might hope to get off the hook via adventures. “He must not be allowed to pull the rope too far,” one of the Blue and White top officials told Al-Monitor. “The situation is more sensitive and explosive than ever before; the prime minister is more shaken and undermined than ever before. Considering the fact that the prime minister has no real Cabinet [to consult with], we all need to be very worried indeed.”
> 
> The military-diplomatic dilemma facing Israel today is significant and real. In 2017, the “precision project” of Hezbollah’s rockets was only theoretical. Israel attacked the Hezbollah infrastructure in Syria and the convoys that transported rockets from Syria to Lebanon; this served to significantly hinder the entire project. One year ago, it was estimated that Hezbollah had only a few precise rockets, a maximum of several dozen. This year, the situation is changing rapidly. Israel does not attack in Lebanon, so Iranian efforts to create precise missiles has moved there. Hezbollah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah is on his way to an arsenal of precise rockets that will reach thousands of units. “We are talking about the classic tie-breaker,” a high-level military source told Al-Monitor recently. “If Hezbollah will be able to make precise hits on IDF bases, the air force’s airports, intel centers or power concentrations — that is a different story altogether. Israel absolutely cannot reach such a situation, which brings up memories of the Egyptian anti-aircraft missiles in the 1973 Yom Kippur War.”
> 
> On Oct. 28, Prime Minister Netanyahu announced, in a public speech, that Iran recently erected long-range missiles on Yemen’s territory. In that context, a senior defense figured told Al-Monitor that "they are trying to create a 360-degree battlefront. They are succeeding because they now have the ability to attack us from almost all directions."
> 
> So much for the bad news. Recently, there have also been positive developments as far as Israel is concerned. Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Yadlin (former head of Aman military intelligence) told Al-Monitor this week that “the Iranians have their own headaches, in light of the large public protests in Lebanon and Iraq. True, the protests in Lebanon are not actually anti-Iran, but the disturbances in Iraq are directly aimed against [Quds Force commander] Gen. Qasem Soleimani. This is a new mini Arab Spring taking place in two countries through which Iran is trying to outflank Israel,” Yadlin asserted.
> 
> In the current state of affairs, Israel is not the only country facing a dilemma. Iran and, mainly, Hassan Nasrallah may find themselves at a crossroads very soon, when crucial decisions will have to be made. Should Israel make the decision to initiate a large-scale strike against the precision project on Lebanese territory, then Nasrallah and Soleimani will have to make an immediate decision: whether to retaliate powerfully and drag the entire region into a conflict that will be much more destructive than all preceding conflicts. Since Nasrallah’s standing in Lebanon is unsteady and since the Lebanese public has had enough of its leaders and rulers, a war may send Lebanon dozens of years back in time and end Nasrallah’s career. “We will not be the only ones to weigh the situation carefully before our next move,” an Israeli security source told Al-Monitor. “Nasrallah is not in such a great position either.”
> 
> Meanwhile, the sides are preparing for whatever comes. *The IDF is making modifications in its aerial detection, interception and protection systems. The goal is to reinforce its ability to intercept cruise missiles, to pinpoint them in time. Israel is not at its best in this field, because over recent years it directed its efforts to the interception of rockets and high-trajectory missiles.* The decisions waiting for the decision-makers in Jerusalem and Beirut in the next months will be truly fateful, critical ones. At this stage, neither of the two countries above have an elected, functioning government, and that is also a problem.
> 
> This twilight zone can impose restraint on both sides. But it can also create chaos.
> 
> https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/or...an-syria-lebanon-strategy-us-trump-yemen.html



I can’t take an article seriously that says Hezbollah has up to this point only “several dozen” precision rockets.

That reminds me of the “Iran has 20-30 TELs” comment of the 2000’s

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## Surenas

TheImmortal said:


> I can’t take an article seriously that says Hezbollah has up to this point only “several dozen” precision rockets.
> 
> That reminds me of the “Iran has 20-30 TELs” comment of the 2000’s



The head of the research division of Israel's military intelligence basically said the same:



> Shalom characterizes Hezbollah's missiles as a "serious strategic threat," but stresses that Hezbollah does not currently have precision missiles in Lebanese territory.



https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/09/26/iran-could-fire-cruise-missiles-at-israel-from-iraq/

I leave it up to your wisdom to judge whether Israel has a good grasp of Hezbollah's precision-guided missiles or not, but what he says in that article is basically Israeli consent.


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## Battle of Waterloo

Surenas said:


> The head of the research division of Israel's military intelligence basically said the same:
> 
> https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/09/26/iran-could-fire-cruise-missiles-at-israel-from-iraq/
> 
> I leave it up to your wisdom to judge whether Israel has a good grasp of Hezbollah's precision-guided missiles or not, but what he says in that article is basically Israeli consent.


Nasrallah himself explicitly confirmed that Hezbollah has at least a dozen precision-guided missiles. That's a more reliable source for me.

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## Surenas

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Nasrallah himself explicitly confirmed that Hezbollah has at least a dozen precision-guided missiles. That's a more reliable source for me.



Sure.

Wouldn't be the first intelligence failure on the side of the Israelis with regards to Hezbollah. They completely missed their anti-ship cruise missile capabilities around the Second Lebanese War as well.

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## Battle of Waterloo

Surenas said:


> Sure.
> 
> Wouldn't be the first intelligence failure on the side of the Israelis with regards to Hezbollah. They completely missed their anti-ship cruise missile capabilities around the Second Lebanese War as well.


One minute Bibi says Hezbollah have multiple huge facilities underground (and overground) for building precision-guided missiles. Now some military research official says Hezbollah doesn't have a single PGM! 

Does that make sense to you? It's all propaganda bullshit.


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## SOHEIL

Hezbullah has big number of Fajr-5 guided version. 

And smaller number of Fateh-313 and Hormuz missiles !

Presence of Anti ship BMs is not confirmed yet but they have enough number of Anti ship CMs ...

BTW ... 13 years passed since 2006 !

God ... We are getting old ...

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## DoubleYouSee

SOHEIL said:


> Hezbullah has big number of Fajr-5 guided version.
> 
> And smaller number of Fateh-313 and Hormuz missiles !
> 
> Presence of Anti ship BMs is not confirmed yet but they have enough number of Anti ship CMs ...
> 
> BTW ... 13 years passed since 2006 !
> 
> God ... We are getting old ...


not older than me......

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## sha ah

Iran didn't go into Syria to threaten Israel. Syria asked for Iran's assistance in order to fight off a foreign backed insurgency. In any case, so far it has been the israelis that have been hitting Iranian assets and Iran has been patient, however if you look at the big picture, the israelis are digging themselves into a ditch. Everytime the zionists launch strikes onto Iraqi / Syrian territory, it helps Iran to prove its point to its followers and allies alike, legitimizing Iran's narrative that israel is indeed a threat. This in turn helps Iran rally more support behind its banner. At the end of the day, the israeli airstrikes, rather than forcefully dismounting Iran from Syria, have actually had the opposite effect, helping Iran entrench itself more firmly in Syria than ever before.

Realistically Iran has the option of striking Israel from Syrian/Lebanese/Iraqi territory. On the other hand I highly doubt if the israelis would target Iran directly since that would completely change the dynamic of the conflict. So far Iran is trying to ignore the israeli airstrikes because despite israeli claims, the airstrikes have failed to prevent Iran from fulfilling it's mission in Syria and realistically have added up to being little more than a nuisance to Iran. However in the long run, if israel continues to pester Iranian proxies and target Iranian assets, eventually there will be retaliation and just like the Saudis, I can guarantee that when it happens, the israelis will cry foul, playing the victim role to a tee.



TheImmortal said:


> If Iran strikes Israel, Israeli defense doctrine requires they strike back Harder. That is why they have been able to be so successful deterring the Arabs so long.
> 
> Any Iran attack on Israel would have far more costs than benefits. I am sure Iran as pragmatic as it is would not view this in the lens of worthwhile.
> 
> Meanwhile it was Iran that violated the unwritten red lines of Israel by entrenching itself in Syria. If Israel decided to entrench itself in Azerbaijan and then start building military bases and then start putting precision BMs there, do you think Iran would sit idly by?
> 
> It’s like a frog in a pot allowing itself to be boiled to death by someone who slowly turns up the temperature.
> 
> That is the reason why Iran hasn’t retaliated up till now.

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## Draco.IMF

translated:

The latest Islamic Republic of Iran cruise missile replica, named #Mobin, unveiled at the Russian Aerospace Exhibition (Max 2019), is specifically modeled on the American #scarab UAV that was also sold to Egypt.

The weapon is capable of launching and flying

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## Taher 2000

View attachment 587636
khorramshahr-1 missile

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## skyshadow

Emad2000 said:


> View attachment 587685
> View attachment 587636
> khorramshahr-1 missile




thats the first khorramshahr missile launch *001*

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> thats the first khorramshahr missile launch *001*


Or maybe the year which it's unveiled(but not proclaimed officialy)......i red an news years before which sardar salami announced ;we have a missile can hit 3 targets simultaneusly......maybe 2001 is the year they tested the missile

Regarding my last post,if i'm not mistaken its name was fajr-3 ballistic missile....


DoubleYouSee said:


> Or maybe the year which it's unveiled(but not proclaimed officialy)......i red an news years before which sardar salami announced ;we have a missile can hit 3 targets simultaneusly......maybe 2001 is the year they tested the missile

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## Taher 2000



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## Sineva

Emad2000 said:


> View attachment 587773
> View attachment 587774
> View attachment 587775


They need to actually start testing the damn thing not just parading it with a new warhead occasionally.This missile needs to go into service,ideally with a multiple terminally guided warhead capability.


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## TheImmortal

Sineva said:


> They need to actually start testing the damn thing not just parading it with a new warhead occasionally.This missile needs to go into service,ideally with a multiple terminally guided warhead capability.



Testing brings more international pressure and eyes on missile program.

Hard for Iran to justify a missile with 4000KM range.

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## Sineva

TheImmortal said:


> Testing brings more international pressure and eyes on missile program.
> 
> Hard for Iran to justify a missile with 4000KM range.


4000KM!!....Ahhhh I dont think so,not unless you`re planning on having zero payload on the damn thing[LOL!].The dprk was struggling to even get 3500km out of it with a 500-1000kg nuclear warhead.I also remember iran stating that this would be used to carry heavyweight payloads out to medium range,not lightweight payloads out to intermediate.
Frankly at this point theres little further pressure that the west can bring to bare and its not like they need any excuse to engage in economic blackmail and thuggery regardless of whatever iran does anyway.Irans ballistic missiles are neither a part of the jcpoa nor prohibited under any un resolution,plus they seem to be one of the few things outside of the nuclear program that supposedly worries the west,I think its past time that iran reminded them why this is.
Ultimately sitting back and doing nothing while hoping that chump will go away and the eurovassals will grow some balls is just not a viable strategy......and never was.
And lastly on a more practical note,larger payload capable missiles like this will likely be the future of irans deterrent force as they can not only carry more than one guided warhead they can also carry decoys and countermeasures against the existing and future abm systems in the region.After all what makes better sense from a perspective of military effectiveness,one warhead per missile from the existing force or multiple warheads plus penetration aids and decoys from a slightly larger missile?

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## AmirPatriot

Sineva said:


> 4000KM!!....Ahhhh I dont think so,not unless you`re planning on having zero payload on the damn thing[LOL!].The dprk was struggling to even get 3500km out of it with a 500-1000kg nuclear warhead.I also remember iran stating that this would be used to carry heavyweight payloads out to medium range,not lightweight payloads out to intermediate.
> Frankly at this point theres little further pressure that the west can bring to bare and its not like they need any excuse to engage in economic blackmail and thuggery regardless of whatever iran does anyway.Irans ballistic missiles are neither a part of the jcpoa nor prohibited under any un resolution,plus they seem to be one of the few things outside of the nuclear program that supposedly worries the west,I think its past time that iran reminded them why this is.
> Ultimately sitting back and doing nothing while hoping that chump will go away and the eurovassals will grow some balls is just not a viable strategy......and never was.
> And lastly on a more practical note,larger payload capable missiles like this will likely be the future of irans deterrent force as they can not only carry more than one guided warhead they can also carry decoys and countermeasures against the existing and future abm systems in the region.After all what makes better sense from a perspective of military effectiveness,one warhead per missile from the existing force or multiple warheads plus penetration aids and decoys from a slightly larger missile?



4000 km range would be useful in deterring Europe from participating in hostile US actions. The threat of even a small warhead (~500 kg) would have a large psychological impact if it's aimed at Warsaw or Berlin.

Aside from bomber/logistics bases, you should also take into account the US developing INF-grade "Pershing III" that would likely be based in Poland or Romania.

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## Sineva

AmirPatriot said:


> 4000 km range would be useful in deterring Europe from participating in hostile US actions. The threat of even a small warhead (~500 kg) would have a large psychological impact if it's aimed at Warsaw or Berlin.
> 
> Aside from bomber/logistics bases, you should also take into account the US developing INF-grade "Pershing III" that would likely be based in Poland or Romania.


I agree,I think iran does need an intermediate ranged force as in the event of a us attack on iran a lot of the staging and logistics will be provided by europe,so having an ability to target these bases and other potentially non military infrastructure might give them pause.Unfortunately the khorramshahr just doesnt really have the range to do the job,ideally you`d need something like the kn17/hwasong 12 with its rd250 derived engines to cover most of europe from iran.


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## yavar

Sineva said:


> you`d need something like the kn17/hwasong 12 with its rd250 derived engines to cover most of europe from iran.









Even Khorramshahr_1 has enough range, the second test it flow so high that it end up in UNSC never mind the Two stage one

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## Battle of Waterloo

Sineva said:


> I agree,I think iran does need an intermediate ranged force as in the event of a us attack on iran a lot of the staging and logistics will be provided by europe,so having an ability to target these bases and other potentially non military infrastructure might give them pause.Unfortunately the khorramshahr just doesnt really have the range to do the job,ideally you`d need something like the kn17/hwasong 12 with its rd250 derived engines to cover most of europe from iran.


3500km+ range is already possible with 500kg warhead - same warhead size as Shahab-3/Emad/Qadr (all have 500-700kg warheads AFAIK). But most importantly, don't forget new solid fuel engines tested in past few years...

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## Draco.IMF

@PeeD & other "experts" here






Assuming this video was not accelerated (which allegedly isnt), how is such an fast launch possible? (starting at 0:25)
Its unbelievable fast
New propulsion? Weight of missile reduced? hypersonic?

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## Battle of Waterloo

Draco.IMF said:


> @PeeD & other "experts" here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming this video was not accelerated (which allegedly isnt), how is such an fast launch possible? (starting at 0:25)
> Its unbelievable fast
> New propulsion? Weight of missile reduced? hypersonic?


I am sure the US had a similarly fast ABM system many decades ago, but I think they discontinued it for some reason. Hopefully someone can confirm this


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## Shams313

Battle of Waterloo said:


> I am sure the US had a similarly fast ABM system many decades ago, but I think they discontinued it for some reason. Hopefully someone can confirm this


Did they secretly tested such ABM in area 51...? I heard no news..
And when i saw that vedio for the first time, i was oaaaa...fire in the hole...
Super extra thrust resulted in insane acceleration...

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## Battle of Waterloo

Shams313 said:


> Did they secretly tested such ABM in area 51...? I heard no news..
> And when i saw that vedio for the first time, i was oaaaa...fire in the hole...
> Super extra thrust resulted in insane acceleration...


No, there is even videos of it on YouTube (the 'equivalent' US system), I saw it a long time ago. I hope someone will come and confirm this and prove I am not crazy!

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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> @PeeD & other "experts" here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming this video was not accelerated (which allegedly isnt), how is such an fast launch possible? (starting at 0:25)
> Its unbelievable fast
> New propulsion? Weight of missile reduced? hypersonic?



the video is cut by Russians to look like that


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## arashkamangir

skyshadow said:


> the video is cut by Russians to look like that



No this is an altered footage. The original footage has a continuity. Also compare it to S-125 launches from the past you will see this launch isn't that much different from older launches.

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## PeeD

Video is legit. This ABM is basically a pure cone to survive the extreme dynamic pressure. However as it climbs dynamic pressure decreases.
The U.S had the nuclear Sprint and the S-300V is kind like a light version of it.

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## QWECXZ

Draco.IMF said:


> @PeeD & other "experts" here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming this video was not accelerated (which allegedly isnt), how is such an fast launch possible? (starting at 0:25)
> Its unbelievable fast
> New propulsion? Weight of missile reduced? hypersonic?



I'm not sure but I think the missile has been launched from a deep underground silo. So, when it reaches above the ground it already has a high speed.

Meanwhile, Sprint Missile:

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## Sineva

Battle of Waterloo said:


> I am sure the US had a similarly fast ABM system many decades ago, but I think they discontinued it for some reason. Hopefully someone can confirm this


Yes,the us Safeguard ABM system which used Sprint and Spartan hypersonic missiles.





Heres the russian interceptor





and the us one




Surprisingly even the chinese had an abm program during the 70s-80s.

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## Battle of Waterloo

Sineva said:


> Yes,the us Safeguard ABM system which used Sprint and Spartan hypersonic missiles.


That's the one, I knew I wasn't going crazy!

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## skyshadow

do you think this is a Iranian missile ?



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192856875445952513


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## mohsen

skyshadow said:


> do you think this is a Iranian missile ?
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192856875445952513


In the beginning, you can see trails of two engines, so it's a two engine jet aircraft, not a missile.
also I think the video is manipulated, if you trace the object, you can see it remains shiny even above clouds!

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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194119636062654464


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194113479373930497

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## skyshadow

*Israelis just bring in tanks with all of there pride then couple of minutes later this happens it's just funny *


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194272771666305024


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194284574941036544

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## skyshadow

*Iran just declassified letter that was top secret and was send by general Tehrani Moghadam to Khamenei*

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> *Iran just declassified letter that was top secret and was send by general Tehrani Moghadam to Khamenei*


Any chance of an english translation,just a brief synopsis will do.Thanks.

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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> Any chance of an english translation,just a brief synopsis will do.Thanks.



to us just the last sentence is important which states



*" Sir, we went to the final point and objective, which is the highest of the deterrence and authority of this divine system, the achievement of the super-fast missile with fast response_reaction missile that reaches Israel and the satellite carrier missile. "*





and remember that *Tehrani Moghadam was working on Ghaem satellite carrier missile the most powerful, its engine can power a ballistic missile with the range of 13,000 km to 14,000 km.*

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## skyshadow

*Hamas should give that to Iran as soon as possible*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194885107267461120

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## sha ah

Does anyone have any images / videos of the damage inflicted on Israel by the Hamas rockets this latest time ? I know that the Zionists have a strict policy of concealing anything that could be perceived as a victory by their rivals but does anyone have any footage ? So far this is all I've been able to find 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194468979038752769



skyshadow said:


> *Hamas should give that to Iran as soon as possible*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194885107267461120

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## Dexon

skyshadow said:


> *Hamas should give that to Iran as soon as possible*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194885107267461120

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## skyshadow

sha ah said:


> Does anyone have any images / videos of the damage inflicted on Israel by the Hamas rockets this latest time ? I know that the Zionists have a strict policy of concealing anything that could be perceived as a victory by their rivals but does anyone have any footage ? So far this is all I've been able to find
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194468979038752769





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195002564460392448

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194613180263256065






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194265555684999174











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194177306136338432

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1190364990961786880

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## 925boy

Battle of Waterloo said:


> No, there is even videos of it on YouTube (the 'equivalent' US system), I saw it a long time ago. I hope someone will come and confirm this and prove I am not crazy!


Hey bro. Good to see u were holding me down while i was banned(woo, i thought someone who was my friend/acquaitance on this forum snitched on me but all good). You made good posts while i was away. i appreciate that!

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## yavar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195081076970074131


It been over 10 years now,
in old forum Iranmilitaryfrorum.net
back Then I said where we exactly were and where IRI was 10 years ago compering to North Korea or India or even Israel


Today you can Clearly see شهيد سالكى و ( solid peperlent desiner and maker is in front and Haj Hassan is given work order of day.


Think if we were there 10 years ago where we are today





Read details in video description



But the nonsense will continue,
When people see Hwasong 15 they should know it real name of it, is not Hwasong 15 and the designer isn't North Korean ( شهيد سردار سيد مهدى liquid peperlent ) but time will proven all the sun will not stay behind cloud for ever.


First ICBM was tested by Martyr Gen. Salki in year 2.... سردار شهيد سالكى

Solid peperlent

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## Aramagedon

yavar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195081076970074131
> 
> 
> It been over 10 years now in old forum Iranmilitaryfrorum.net
> 
> 
> back Then I said where we m exactly were and where IRI was 10 years ago compering to North Korea or India or even Israel
> 
> 
> Today you can Clearly see شهيد سالكى و ( solid peperlent desiner and maker is in front and Haj Hassan is given work order of day.
> 
> 
> Think if we were there 10 years ago where today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read details in video description
> 
> 
> 
> But the nonsense will continue,
> When people see Hwasong 15 they should know it real name of it, is not Hwasong 15 and the designer isn't North Korean ( شهيد سردار سيد مهدى liquid peperlent ) but time will proven all the sun will not stay behind cloud for ever.
> 
> 
> First ICBM was tested by Martyr Gen. Salki 2.... سردار شهيد سالكى
> 
> Solid peperlent


Are these missiles manufactured to target Europe?

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## SOHEIL

Aramagedon said:


> Are these missiles manufactured to target Europe?



Farther ...

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## yavar

Aramagedon said:


> Are these missiles manufactured to target Europe?


Why do we need ICBM for Europe??
IRBM will reach any European capital including London so ICBM is clearly for deferent purpose.

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195081076970074131
> Think if we were there 10 years ago where we are today



@yavar brother, 10 years ago Tehrani was still alive, the question is how the development went wihtout him, Im sure it was not easy without him (some more top engineers were killed in the blast), clearly Irans missile programm got a huge setback

if Iran is in such advanced mode as you describe, why we didnt saw any major satellite launch the whole years, is that only because of political reasons?

also last time Iran tried to put something into orbit it exploded (allegedly a fail during refuelling), something clearly is not working in the space program

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## like_a_boss

yavar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195081076970074131
> 
> 
> It been over 10 years now,
> in old forum Iranmilitaryfrorum.net
> back Then I said where we exactly were and where IRI was 10 years ago compering to North Korea or India or even Israel
> 
> 
> Today you can Clearly see شهيد سالكى و ( solid peperlent desiner and maker is in front and Haj Hassan is given work order of day.
> 
> 
> Think if we were there 10 years ago where we are today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read details in video description
> 
> 
> 
> But the nonsense will continue,
> When people see Hwasong 15 they should know it real name of it, is not Hwasong 15 and the designer isn't North Korean ( شهيد سردار سيد مهدى liquid peperlent ) but time will proven all the sun will not stay behind cloud for ever.
> 
> 
> First ICBM was tested by Martyr Gen. Salki in year 2.... سردار شهيد سالكى
> 
> Solid peperlent



OOOOOFFFF C'MON BABY

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## arashkamangir

Draco.IMF said:


> @yavar brother, 10 years ago Tehrani was still alive, the question is how the development went wihtout him, Im sure it was not easy without him (some more top engineers were killed in the blast), clearly Irans missile programm got a huge setback
> 
> if Iran is in such advanced mode as you describe, why we didnt saw any major satellite launch the whole years, is that only because of political reasons?
> 
> also last time Iran tried to put something into orbit it exploded (allegedly a fail during refuelling), something clearly is not working in the space program




Politics. Failure is a part of this trade and every space agency has had many failures. Look at NASA and US space institutions. Despite decades of development, failures and success, decades of aerospace engineering evolution, they still have failures once in a while when they attempt to build Saturn V class rockets. The reason is, you need to actively be engaged in the development, otherwise you would lose the skills and refinement.

Iran needs to actively pursue this program otherwise, the talents will either leave or die from old age and those who don't they lose their edge due to lack of practice.

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> @yavar brother, 10 years ago Tehrani was still alive, the question is how the development went wihtout him, Im sure it was not easy without him (some more top engineers were killed in the blast), clearly Irans missile programm



It went very easy. Because we have many missile teams and groups when it comes to design and productions.

Look orgnastions like Islamic Jahad in Palestrina or even Hezballah
They have many productions facilities and teams so every time Israel say they have asasenated this or that guy and they have killed so and so but it has zero effect on Rock and missile productions and development so
What do you think about the IRIran ???


With regard to SLV launches
First: it is political
Second: we haven't had any failed take off and they are all have entered orbit no explosions
3rd: inserting Saterlite is different to having Renitery vehicle coming back down and hitting target on ground
4th:we still haven't declassified all launches which had look place


So ballistic missile warhead operates definitely to SLV ejecting vehicle which still on development, we have never even one had failed launch Seimorgh SLV. It is always the second stage or sumus which not been 100% up to the task,

Even our MIRV technology is fully up and running

So compering two is mistake



Draco.IMF said:


> @yavar
> also last time Iran tried to put something into orbit it exploded (allegedly a fail during refuelling), something clearly is not working in the space program



1rd: Sabotage 
Second: the Saterlite launch program been now passed on defence ministery 
3rd: no explosion, fire break out

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## Battle of Waterloo

yavar said:


> It went very easy. Because we have many missile teams and groups when it comes to design and productions.
> 
> Look orgnastions like Islamic Jahad in Palestrina or even Hezballah
> They have many productions facilities and teams so every time Israel say they have asasenated this or that guy and they have killed so and so but it has zero effect on Rock and missile productions and development so
> What do you think about the IRIran ???


Clearly Moghaddam was personally responsible for the biggest project(s) in Iran at the time, and it seems his entire team died in the explosion with him. Other teams would need a lot of time to catch up with his work. 

Israel usually kills single commanders at any one time, this was MOghaddam and his entire team all killed in one explosion. 

So I wouldn't say it's the same at all and clearly his death was a big setback. Simorgh first test was only in 2016 and since then not even one satellite was put into LEO, so we are not going to see a Qaem SLV put 400kg+ satellites into LEO/GEO any time soon... (But the solid fuel missile applications are more promising in my opinion.)

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## PeeD

Great to see it finally.

Note the single nozzle design.

It is easier to use 2-4 nozzles in first attempts, especially for a TVC system. The Minuteman and the first large Chinese solid, the DF-21 did so.

Irans first large one, the Sedjil already had a single nozzle design and the Qaem also goes for it.

The size of the nozzle hints to a second stage engine, which means: The first stage must be even larger.

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> Great to see it finally.
> 
> Note the single nozzle design.
> 
> It is easier to use 2-4 nozzles in first attempts, especially for a TVC system. The Minuteman and the first large Chinese solid, the DF-21 did so.
> 
> Irans first large one, the Sedjil already had a single nozzle design and the Qaem also goes for it.
> 
> The size of the nozzle hints to a second stage engine, which means: The first stage must be even larger.


Why is multi-nozzle design easier than a single nozzle? Is it to do with the technologies needed to create a single large nozzle the can withstand the stress and heat?


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## PeeD

Gimbaling flex- or rotating nozzles is easier/only possible with smaller ones. Manufacturing is the main issue, you need larger, more specialized machines.

Another point is the apparently steel casing: Super-high tensile strength superalloys are needed for this in the range of 1500-2000 Mpa, commonly maraging steel alloys not available on civilian steel market.
Maybe this was not yet such a flight-hardware superalloy and maybe the goal was to ultimately use a filament/carbon casing.

In his last letter to the leader, Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam talked about a fast reaction missile for use against Israel. The low-end of what this system might was is the 1000km range Dezful with its carbon epoxy casing and nozzle.

It is the ultimate fast reaction, miniaturized Israel-range missile.

Generally the design team of such missiles sit far away, at a completely different location. Only the technicians and flight/static-test engineers should have been at the site where the catastrophic event happened.

It seems to me that the solid fuel design team was unaffected and concentrated on key subsystem technologies which we now see applied in the Dezful, to be upscale to the final Qaem and its IR/IC-BM family members. In that sense Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam did the proof of concept and boost in morale that the peaks of missile technology are achievable with those early, high-risk tests.

As his brother said: His only goal was to make Iran capable to hit the U.S.

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## skyshadow

*US Army’s new playing cards feature Russian tanks, Chinese missiles and Iranian weapons*


*The 10 of hearts in the Iranian deck, for instance, shows a multiple rocket launcher.*
*

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/us-...chinese-missiles-and-iranian-weapons-1.607438*

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195081076970074131
> Think if we were there 10 years ago where we are today



aproximatelly where the soviets were in the 80s?

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## yavar

Iran the eight remembrance of Martyr IRGC aerospace chief Gen. Haj Haasan Tehrani Moghadam, Qaem solid fuel propellant ( missile, SLV )








Draco.IMF said:


> aproximatelly where the soviets were in the 80s?


the video is from 2008, yes 100% 1987, to 1990s of soviet


U.S.-RUSSIA JOINT THREAT ASSESSMENT 2009
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10STATE17263_a.html

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## yavar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195489698271125504

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## TheImmortal

Why does this need repeating?

Tehrani was in his office at the time of explosion. His presence at the base was merely coincidental at time of explosion.

There was a routine movement of missile engine for testing when explosion happened igniting the other explosives.

So I am not sure why after 10 years people think that everyone was sitting around the missile waiting for a test and the explosion happened.

Also a liquid ICBM design is a bit archaic hence why Shahrud has moved on to large solid engine designs.

I don’t think Qaem will ever see the light of day. I think project was shelved similar to Ashura missile and Shahab-4. Nonetheless lessons were learned that clearly transferred to other missile designs/engines.

But a liquid fuel ICBM would eventually need to be replaced by a solid fuel anyway for true survivability and off road launch.

SLV program is dead in the water. IRGC will never transfer Qaem to space agency that is filled with western spies. It would be worse than the US parking the F-22 in an Iraqi air base filled with Shi’ite militas.

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> I
> U.S.-RUSSIA JOINT THREAT ASSESSMENT 2009
> https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10STATE17263_a.html



for what I can read Russia is downplaying Irans capabilities extremely, but why?

_*"in their analysis, the missile programs of Iran and the DPRK are not sufficiently developed, and their intentions to use missiles against the U.S. or Russia are nonexistent"*_

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## DoubleYouSee

TheImmortal said:


> Why does this need repeating?
> 
> Tehrani was in his office at the time of explosion. His presence at the base was merely coincidental at time of explosion.
> 
> There was a routine movement of missile engine for testing when explosion happened igniting the other explosives.
> 
> So I am not sure why after 10 years people think that everyone was sitting around the missile waiting for a test and the explosion happened.
> 
> Also a liquid ICBM design is a bit archaic hence why Shahrud has moved on to large solid engine designs.
> 
> I don’t think Qaem will ever see the light of day. I think project was shelved similar to Ashura missile and Shahab-4. Nonetheless lessons were learned that clearly transferred to other missile designs/engines.
> 
> But a liquid fuel ICBM would eventually need to be replaced by a solid fuel anyway for true survivability and off road launch.
> 
> SLV program is dead in the water. IRGC will never transfer Qaem to space agency that is filled with western spies. It would be worse than the US parking the F-22 in an Iraqi air base filled with Shi’ite militas.


I live in karaj(the city near the base which explosion happened in)the estimated distance from that site and our house is 12km....i remember that day,i slept at home and trembelling in the home woke me up.......the magnitude of the explosion was hella big ...so you are right.....the magnitude was big enough to kill every one there.....

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## sha ah

yavar said:


> Why do we need ICBM for Europe??
> IRBM will reach any European capital including London so ICBM is clearly for deferent purpose.



Iran's missiles can already reach Europe. Iran has officially capped its missile range at 2500 km, however in reality they can reach much further, as far as London.

The Khorramshahr missile for example is based on the North Korean Hwasong 10, which was probably jointly developed by both nations. The difference is that the Iranian version, the Khorramshahr missile has a shorter range, 1000–2000 km with a 1800 kg warhead, whereas the North Korean version has a longer range, 3000-4000 km with a 600-1000 kg warhead.

For Iran it's military doctrine is based on defense, which is why Iran mainly focuses on striking targets within the immediate region. Some sources claim that Iran only has 100 missile with a range of approx 2000. Personally I believe that that number is much higher. Even 100 missiles able to reach London would be a deterrent, but something like 200-500 would be more significant deterrent indeed.

In reality if Iran wanted to build an IRBM, it would not be a matter of "if" but rather "when". As I stated, it's common knowledge that Iran has been funding and co-producing missiles with the North Koreans for years, even decades. Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that Iran has already acquired the technical know to build an IRBM, at the very least. Chances are that Iran already has a serious contingency plan in place to retaliate against various European nations. Basically if Iran is attacked by any EU nations, realistically it would not take long to modify a few Khorramshahr missiles and immediately hit targets in the heart of Europe as a major deterrent and to show the enemy that Iran does indeed have the means to retaliate. I'm personally guessing that Iran most likely even has at the very least a dozen or so Khorramshahr missiles already modified to hit cities in Europe. It would not be irrational for Iran to have that capability.


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## skyshadow

*
another very good news Iran has just announced that they has enhanced there cruise missiles range to a unknown number 








"The deputy minister also pointed to the latest advances in the country’s missile industry, saying the range and precision of ground-launched cruise missiles have been extended with a new digital mapping system whose testing stages will be over in the near future."



https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/...ss-production-of-laser-cannons-starts-in-iran*

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## skyshadow

*France, Germany and UK reiterate claim that Iran has nuclear-capable ballistic missiles*


*



*


*https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/05/middleeast/iran-nuclear-ballistic-missiles-intl-hnk/index.html*


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## skyshadow



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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> *France, Germany and UK reiterate claim that Iran has nuclear-capable ballistic missiles*
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/05/middleeast/iran-nuclear-ballistic-missiles-intl-hnk/index.html*


this lines from the article reiterate Iran claims that those missiles are not designed to carry nukes


> The letter notes that the Shahab-3 has been equipped with a new maneuverable re-entry vehicle that is "likely to both improve the accuracy of missiles produced in future and enable existing missile stocks to be upgraded, increasing their accuracy."

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> *France, Germany and UK reiterate claim that Iran has nuclear-capable ballistic missiles*
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/05/middleeast/iran-nuclear-ballistic-missiles-intl-hnk/index.html*


By that same idiotic analogy you could claim that basically iran could use any of its aircraft as a potential nuclear delivery system,yet I notice that they *DONT* try and claim that irans aircraft *ARE* nuclear capable despite both the f4 and su24 having this capability in us and soviet service respectively,I wonder why?.
In addition the shahab 3 and its ghidir 110 successors were derived from the dprks indigenous rodong missile,this missile unlike its 1950s era soviet scud cousins was never designed with the carriage of nuclear warheads as its primary purpose and indeed was designed only with the carriage of a conventional ie high explosive payload,there never was a nuclear warhead developed for it because at the time of its development in the 1990s the dprk was not yet a nuclear power.
Basically just more stupid pathetic eurovassal bullsh!t....You`d think that they`d have better things to do at this point......maybe like saving the jcpoa for instance.
Oh well,I suppose that just as "stupid is as stupid does" so to Vassals are as vassals do.

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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> this lines from the article reiterate Iran claims that those missiles are not designed to carry nukes






Sineva said:


> By that same idiotic analogy you could claim that basically iran could use any of its aircraft as a potential nuclear delivery system,yet I notice that they *DONT* try and claim that irans aircraft *ARE* nuclear capable despite both the f4 and su24 having this capability in us and soviet service respectively,I wonder why?.
> In addition the shahab 3 and its ghidir 110 successors were derived from the dprks indigenous rodong missile,this missile unlike its 1950s era soviet scud cousins was never designed with the carriage of nuclear warheads as its primary purpose and indeed was designed only with the carriage of a conventional ie high explosive payload,there never was a nuclear warhead developed for it because at the time of its development in the 1990s the dprk was not yet a nuclear power.
> Basically just more stupid pathetic eurovassal bullsh!t....You`d think that they`d have better things to do at this point......maybe like saving the jcpoa for instance.
> Oh well,I suppose that just as "stupid is as stupid does" so to Vassals are as vassals do.



you are both right, this is the same as they were saying for years and im sick of it

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## Messerschmitt

Noor/C-802 AShM was part of the intercepted weapons shipment to the Houthis

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Sineva said:


> By that same idiotic analogy you could claim that basically iran could use any of its aircraft as a potential nuclear delivery system,yet I notice that they *DONT* try and claim that irans aircraft *ARE* nuclear capable despite both the f4 and su24 having this capability in us and soviet service respectively,I wonder why?.
> In addition the shahab 3 and its ghidir 110 successors were derived from the dprks indigenous rodong missile,this missile unlike its 1950s era soviet scud cousins was never designed with the carriage of nuclear warheads as its primary purpose and indeed was designed only with the carriage of a conventional ie high explosive payload,there never was a nuclear warhead developed for it because at the time of its development in the 1990s the dprk was not yet a nuclear power.
> Basically just more stupid pathetic eurovassal bullsh!t....You`d think that they`d have better things to do at this point......maybe like saving the jcpoa for instance.
> Oh well,I suppose that just as "stupid is as stupid does" so to Vassals are as vassals do.


 There is nothing in the JCPOA that dictates any restriction on Iran's missile capabilities. This is a pile of manure!

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## Websorber

This is the letter they talked about

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202956977573367810

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## skyshadow

*

Iranian engine????




North Korea: “very important successful test at Sohae Satellite launching ground.” Test produced “successful result,” is of “great significance,” and will “change the strategic position of North Korea.” (most likely a solid fuel engine for ICBM capable of hitting US)





*


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## skyshadow

@PeeD *hi*, *love to see if you have analysis on these pics and ground scars












*

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## yavar

Mar, 2017

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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> @PeeD *hi*, *love to see if you have analysis on these pics and ground scars*



Sorry baradar, these tests are vertical and much harder to estimate. From the test stand size and scars we can be sure it was something big, either the already tested 80t engine or a 4 nozzle twin variant with 160t of thrust.
Someone would have to calculate whats possible with that size test stand.

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> @PeeD *hi*, *love to see if you have analysis on these pics and ground scars
> 
> 
> *





PeeD said:


> Sorry baradar, these tests are vertical and much harder to estimate. From the test stand size and scars we can be sure it was something big, either the already tested 80t engine or a 4 nozzle twin variant with 160t of thrust.
> Someone would have to calculate whats possible with that size test stand.















What's clear is that it uses an open cycle engine so not very advanced in terms of design and both Iran and North Korea have way's to go in terms of engine designs 
(Putting your Turbine exhaust back into your compressor allows you to both burn any unburnt fuel back into the combustion chamber and run compressors with more fuel = higher speeds since that fuel wouldn't be waisted anyways and with full flow cycle your basically blasting fuel and oxidizer into the combustion chamber thus achieving far greater thrust with full flow staged combustion cycles designs basically imagine 2 jet engines that rather than compressed air one blast fuel and the other oxidizer into the combustion chamber) 
So in terms of Rocket engine design North Koreans have ways to go and so do we! 











​

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## Sineva

Sineva said:


> By that same idiotic analogy you could claim that basically iran could use any of its aircraft as a potential nuclear delivery system,yet I notice that they *DONT* try and claim that irans aircraft *ARE* nuclear capable despite both the f4 and su24 having this capability in us and soviet service respectively,I wonder why?.
> In addition the shahab 3 and its ghidir 110 successors were derived from the dprks indigenous rodong missile,this missile unlike its 1950s era soviet scud cousins was never designed with the carriage of nuclear warheads as its primary purpose and indeed was designed only with the carriage of a conventional ie high explosive payload,there never was a nuclear warhead developed for it because at the time of its development in the 1990s the dprk was not yet a nuclear power.
> Basically just more stupid pathetic eurovassal bullsh!t....You`d think that they`d have better things to do at this point......maybe like saving the jcpoa for instance.
> Oh well,I suppose that just as "stupid is as stupid does" so to Vassals are as vassals do.


What makes this so especially fvcking retarded even by the usual standards of gross western hypocrisy is that they are using the MTCR definitions which is an agreement,*NOT A TREATY*,that iran is *NOT EVEN A MEMBER OF!!*.




Heres the first page,you can read the rest here,tho frankly I wouldnt even bother as its literally a big steaming stinking pile of eurovassal eurosh!t.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202447024882421766

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## Sineva

VEVAK said:


> View attachment 593270
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's clear is that it uses an open cycle engine so not very advanced in terms of design and both Iran and North Korea have way's to go in terms of engine designs
> (Putting your Turbine exhaust back into your compressor allows you to both burn any unburnt fuel back into the combustion chamber and run compressors with more fuel = higher speeds since that fuel wouldn't be waisted anyways and with full flow cycle your basically blasting fuel and oxidizer into the combustion chamber thus achieving far greater thrust with full flow staged combustion cycles designs basically imagine 2 jet engines that rather than compressed air one blast fuel and the other oxidizer into the combustion chamber)
> So in terms of Rocket engine design North Koreans have ways to go and so do we!
> ​


​The general consensus is that this test was very likely of a single chamber variant of an *RD-250*.Thats the reason why you`re seeing the turbopump exhaust as the original 2 chamber design used a common turbopump for both chambers.
This is in fact a *closed cycle oxidiser rich engine*,and a rather powerful one at that.Hopefully iran will acquire this engine,if it hasnt already,as this would enable iran to basically do pretty much whatever it wanted in rocket/missile terms ie build irbms,icbms as well as slvs capable of putting multi ton spacecraft into low earth orbit.
I dont know how the dprk got its hands on this but it is an incredible achievement,lets hope that iran gets to make use of it as well.
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Rest_World/Unha-X/Gallery/Engine.htm

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## sha ah

Hack-Hook said:


> this lines from the article reiterate Iran claims that those missiles are not designed to carry nukes



So what if Iran has nuclear capable missiles ? The Europeans have nuclear weapons, ICBM's, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, all sorts of weapons, you name it they have it. Also looking at their track record compared to Iran, Iran has not attacked any nation for 300 years. How many nations have the Europeans colonized, attacked, destabilized, bombed ? How many countless atrocities have they committed ? and they dare point the finger at Iran ? They DO NOT have any moral high ground and their policy is not only disrespectful towards Iran, it's sheer hypocrisy. It's neo colonialism at its worst. Iran's leadership is making the right choice, however I were in charge, I would accelerate the nuclear program even more and and start openly building MRBM. They have it so why not Iran ? If they want Iran to disarm then they should stop arming the tyrannical Saudi's first and disband their own nuclear stockpile AND disband their bases in the region. Iran is already paying the price in terms of sanctions so why not reap the benefits ?

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## skyshadow

*budget increase for IRGC





*

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## VEVAK

Sineva said:


> The general consensus is that this test was very likely of a single chamber variant of an *RD-250*.Thats the reason why you`re seeing the turbopump exhaust as the original 2 chamber design used a common turbopump for both chambers.
> This is in fact a *closed cycle oxidiser rich engine*,and a rather powerful one at that.Hopefully iran will acquire this engine,if it hasnt already,as this would enable iran to basically do pretty much whatever it wanted in rocket/missile terms ie build irbms,icbms as well as slvs capable of putting multi ton spacecraft into low earth orbit.
> I dont know how the dprk got its hands on this but it is an incredible achievement,lets hope that iran gets to make use of it as well.
> http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Rest_World/Unha-X/Gallery/Engine.htm



More like a gas generated power cycle like the Merlin engines used by Space X


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## skyshadow

*Concerns In Israel coming from direction of Yemen: Iran may be preparing global public opinion through media statements, for Houthi (Shiite) rebels may launch a (missile) attack against Israeli targets as revenge for Israeli attacks on Iranian targets in Syria and Iraq.*
*





*

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## Bahram Esfandiari

skyshadow said:


> *Concerns In Israel coming from direction of Yemen: Iran may be preparing global public opinion through media statements, for Houthi (Shiite) rebels may launch a (missile) attack against Israeli targets as revenge for Israeli attacks on Iranian targets in Syria and Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


 Were are you getting this non sense?

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## skyshadow

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Were are you getting this non sense?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204255090716090374

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204258134317060096

*Netanyahu says Iran seeking means to attack Israel from Yemen*

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ans-to-attack-israel-from-yemen-idUSKBN1X71SA


ISI *reveals tunnel excavation within* "ImamAli" (*probably* Iran*ian) military base*, Albukamal, Syria. *The* *estimated tunnel’s width is 4-5 - suitable for trucks and big vehicles’ shelter, possibly for secure storage of advanced* weapon *systems or sensitive elements.*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204429939342282754

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204255090716090374
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204258134317060096
> 
> *Netanyahu says Iran seeking means to attack Israel from Yemen*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ans-to-attack-israel-from-yemen-idUSKBN1X71SA
> 
> 
> ISI *reveals tunnel excavation within* "ImamAli" (*probably* Iran*ian) military base*, Albukamal, Syria. *The* *estimated tunnel’s width is 4-5 - suitable for trucks and big vehicles’ shelter, possibly for secure storage of advanced* weapon *systems or sensitive elements.*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204429939342282754



Congrats on quoting well known Twitter Zionist sources like ELINT.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> Congrats on quoting well known Twitter Zionist sources like ELINT.


as mentioned on the that post Netanyahu already said Iran wants to attack from Yemen, if it was any other day i will just read and moved on but they are building a story that Iran wants to take revenge from Yemen

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## Draco.IMF

ELINT NEWS, Babak Taghvaee....Shekel paid Hasbara trolls
You can both use them as toilet paper
Nat dog Yahoo just needs distraction from his criminal probe, thats why this psychopath is now very dangerous

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> as mentioned on the that post Netanyahu already said Iran wants to attack from Yemen, if it was any other day i will just read and moved on but they are building a story that Iran wants to take revenge from Yemen


Yes,I was reading this sh!t last night too.

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## skyshadow

*UN says unable to verify Iranian weapons used in Saudi oil attack*


*https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...weapons-saudi-oil-attack-191211054503785.html*

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## skyshadow

one of the well known Turkish members ( @*cabatli_53 *) was just showing me the live test of their missiles, solid fuel missiles and they were burning so clean like they are liquid fuel, i wonder when we can build this hybrid fuel it would help us a lot, we saw that when we attacked in Syria and Iraq everyone saw the smoke trail of our missiles and the news was on the internet before missiles hit there targets, and they did all kind of analysis on them, some times negative so in that regard i wonder how many years we need to build such smokeless solid fuel.









ADN (Ammonium dinitramide) = Development completed successfully. (smokeless, insensitive composite rocket fuel which provides %10 more propulsion compared to other oxidizers.)
AZP (Azido Polymer ) = Development completed successfully. (new generation, less smoky/smokeless, insensitive and a high energy polimer binder is capable of providing an increase in ballistic performance.)
AO3105 (Antioksidan) = Development completed succesfully. (Used in flight engine composite solid rocket fuel and primer formulation of OMTAS missile)
IPDI (Isophorone diisocyanate) = Development completed successfully. (Used as a curative in flight engine fuel and primer formulation of OMTAS missile)
TDI (Toluene diisocyanate) = Development completed successfully. ( Toxic and highly reactive organic compound)
EKZO (Synthetic Jet Fuel) = (1,5t capacity/year production, It is vital for air breathing cruise missiles)
HNIW(HexaNitroHexaAzaIsoWurtzitane) = Development completed successfully. (That is very dangerous compound to synthesis and one of the most powerful explosives known today, more powerfull than RDX and HMX)


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## PeeD

Smoke generating solid fuel propellant are more powerful than smokeless in general.
Americans like to sacrifice range for smokeless feature on their AAMs. Never on something as serious as ballistic missiles.

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## Mithridates

skyshadow said:


> one of the well known Turkish members ( @*cabatli_53 *) was just showing me the live test of their missiles, solid fuel missiles and they were burning so clean like they are liquid fuel, i wonder when we can build this hybrid fuel it would help us a lot, we saw that when we attacked in Syria and Iraq everyone saw the smoke trail of our missiles and the news was on the internet before missiles hit there targets, and they did all kind of analysis on them, some times negative so in that regard i wonder how many years we need to build such smokeless solid fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ADN (Ammonium dinitramide) = Development completed successfully. (smokeless, insensitive composite rocket fuel which provides %10 more propulsion compared to other oxidizers.)
> AZP (Azido Polymer ) = Development completed successfully. (new generation, less smoky/smokeless, insensitive and a high energy polimer binder is capable of providing an increase in ballistic performance.)
> AO3105 (Antioksidan) = Development completed succesfully. (Used in flight engine composite solid rocket fuel and primer formulation of OMTAS missile)
> IPDI (Isophorone diisocyanate) = Development completed successfully. (Used as a curative in flight engine fuel and primer formulation of OMTAS missile)
> TDI (Toluene diisocyanate) = Development completed successfully. ( Toxic and highly reactive organic compound)
> EKZO (Synthetic Jet Fuel) = (1,5t capacity/year production, It is vital for air breathing cruise missiles)
> HNIW(HexaNitroHexaAzaIsoWurtzitane) = Development completed successfully. (That is very dangerous compound to synthesis and one of the most powerful explosives known today, more powerfull than RDX and HMX)


well i'm not an expert in this regard but the smoke seems like is the same solid fuel that didn't burn so they add silver (or something based on it) to catalyze the posses and burn whole fuel. it would be good for short rage SAM and A2A missiles but for BM i'm not sure because if a ballistic missile fired upon u and you are able to see it your gajed .

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## skyshadow

Shahab-3 caught on Google Earth at Iran's missile tunnels. 24km NW of Tabriz. There are a few new tunnels currently under construction in the base as well.

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> *Concerns In Israel coming from direction of Yemen: Iran may be preparing global public opinion through media statements, for Houthi (Shiite) rebels may launch a (missile) attack against Israeli targets as revenge for Israeli attacks on Iranian targets in Syria and Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Israeli's make up this nonsense because they want access to U.S. IADS radar telemetry in Saudi Arabia which would also include Saudi radar telemetry. Israeli's want to use Iran and Yemen to blind the Saudi's and get them to go along with handing over billions of dollars worth of sensor telemetry over to Israel for either free or in exchange of some comparatively minor Israeli military assistance....

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> Israeli's make up this nonsense because they want access to U.S. IADS radar telemetry in Saudi Arabia which would also include Saudi radar telemetry. Israeli's want to use Iran and Yemen to blind the Saudi's and get them to go along with handing over billions of dollars worth of sensor telemetry over to Israel for either free or in exchange of some comparatively minor Israeli military assistance....



if so then that is a hell of a game they are playing

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## 925boy

Draco.IMF said:


> ELINT NEWS, Babak Taghvaee....Shekel paid Hasbara trolls
> You can both use them as toilet paper
> Nat dog Yahoo just needs distraction from his criminal probe, thats why this psychopath is now very dangerous


But usually its your enemies that post the actual truth about you in public.

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> if so then that is a hell of a game they are playing


It's a shot they've fired, whether or not it hits the target and the Saudis play along with it remains to be seen. As for it being a hell of a game well the Israeli's play these type of games all the time so it's not very surprising that they would take full advantage of the Trump Administration and get them to pressure the Saudi's into handing over that data for something comparatively minor for example they'll agree to sell the Saudi's the F-35.... So far the Israeli's have practically shamed the Germans into giving them free Submarines, they play U.S. politics like a fiddle into paying them Billions of dollars in annual military aid and among none NATO countries the Israeli's probably reap the biggest reward out of the NATO alliance and these are just a few of the very large and notable examples.

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## 925boy

skyshadow said:


> *UN says unable to verify Iranian weapons used in Saudi oil attack*
> 
> 
> *https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...weapons-saudi-oil-attack-191211054503785.html*


I guess that was some "clean work" by Iran.

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## skyshadow

925boy said:


> I guess that was some "clean work" by Iran.



so clean that they did not see them until it was too late that was the hart part to get them to Iraq then Kuwait then Persian gulf into SA, near Bahrain air defense systems



VEVAK said:


> It's a shot they've fired, whether or not it hits the target and the Saudis play along with it remains to be seen. As for it being a hell of a game well the Israeli's play these type of games all the time so it's not very surprising that they would take full advantage of the Trump Administration and get them to pressure the Saudi's into handing over that data for something comparatively minor for example they'll agree to sell the Saudi's the F-35.... So far the Israeli's have practically shamed the Germans into giving them free Submarines, they play U.S. politics like a fiddle into paying them Billions of dollars in annual military aid and among none NATO countries the Israeli's probably reap the biggest reward out of the NATO alliance and these are just a few of the very large and notable examples.



yes in that regard they say U.S military aid to Israel most increase because of Iran they had a whole article on that in haaretz, so basically it said US most give free F35s, free smart guided bombs, free advanced Air defence systems and more money as Iran is getting stronger and more advance, that was funny to read


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## VEVAK

925boy said:


> I guess that was some "clean work" by Iran.





skyshadow said:


> so clean that they did not see them until it was too late that was the hart part to get them to Iraq then Kuwait then Persian gulf into SA, near Bahrain air defense systems



Yeki neest begheh Why would it matter if the weapons were made in Iran? It's not like Saudi weapons are made in Saudi Arabia! So even if the weapons were made in Iran, So what? If the Yemeni's are claiming to have fired them & there is no evidence to the contrary then what the hell is the UN doing spending funds to investigate where the weapons the Yemeni's announced to have used were manufactured. 

It's not like they are going around investigating where the weapons the Saudi's are using against Yemen were manufactured to then sanction the country that sold them weapons..... I guess it should be no surprise, what more could one expect out of an organization that puts the Saudi's in charge of the UN Human Rights Council!

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> Yeki neest begheh Why would it matter if the weapons were made in Iran? It's not like Saudi weapons are made in Saudi Arabia! So even if the weapons were made in Iran, So what? If the Yemeni's are claiming to have fired them & there is no evidence to the contrary then what the hell is the UN doing spending funds to investigate where the weapons the Yemeni's announced to have used were manufactured.
> 
> It's not like they are going around investigating where the weapons the Saudi's are using against Yemen were manufactured to then sanction the country that sold them weapons..... I guess it should be no surprise, what more could one expect out of an organization that puts the Saudi's in charge of the UN Human Rights Council!




preach brother preach, well you are talking about a corrupt institution they will never go after SA

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## Blue In Green

skyshadow said:


> Shahab-3 caught on Google Earth at Iran's missile tunnels. 24km NW of Tabriz. There are a few new tunnels currently under construction in the base as well.



Can we make a logical deduction that given the recent American and Israeli military action against Iranian troops and interests in the region (leading to the deaths of Iranians and destruction of Iranian infrastructure), that Iran has increased missile production as a means to further prepare for a possible future conflict?

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## skyshadow

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Can we make a logical deduction that given the recent American and Israeli military action against Iranian troops and interests in the region (leading to the deaths of Iranians and destruction of Iranian infrastructure), that Iran has increased missile production as a means to further prepare for a possible future conflict?



maybe, usually they transfer them at night i do not know why they did this at bright light as they were deploying couple more it could have lots of indications but expecting attack from US or Israel are not that high in the list but they could very well be adding to the storage by breaking the norm and move them so recklessly.

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## Blue In Green

skyshadow said:


> maybe, usually they transfer them at night i do not know why they did this at bright light as they were deploying couple more it could have lots of indications but expecting attack from US or Israel are not that high in the list but they could very well be adding to the storage by breaking the norm and move them so recklessly.



I'm just grasping at straws here but wouldn't moving them in broad daylight be some sort of gesture to America and Israel? Granted I don't know exactly what the gesture would be trying to convey but it seems like it could be something.

To be honest lol, I just would like to think Iran has ramped up missile production recently since the possibility of an open conflict has never been this high in a while so it would just seem logical for Iran to stockpile more missile just in case. Since Iran does seem to be expanding it underground missile bases to, I assume, accommodate for more missiles and TELs.

Hell, I don't even think we even have an accurate stockpile count right now regarding just how many missiles Iran truly has. I know it's "a lot" but how much is sort of anyones guess lol.

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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> I'm just grasping at straws here but wouldn't moving them in broad daylight be some sort of gesture to America and Israel? Granted I don't know exactly what the gesture would be trying to convey but it seems like it could be something.
> 
> To be honest lol, I just would like to think Iran has ramped up missile production recently since the possibility of an open conflict has never been this high in a while so it would just seem logical for Iran to stockpile more missile just in case. Since Iran does seem to be expanding it underground missile bases to, I assume, accommodate for more missiles and TELs.
> 
> Hell, I don't even think we even have an accurate stockpile count right now regarding just how many missiles Iran truly has. I know it's "a lot" but how much is sort of anyones guess lol.



Iran’s missile production is based on strategic planning not arbitrarily changing with the wind due to what Israel/US do on a given day or month.

Some missiles have to be retired due to aging and obsolete models. If I were Iran I would move these missiles to Iraq and let them age there. Since they are liquid even if they get destroyed the explosion would be minimal compared to solid fuel since they would likely not be carrying fuel during transport and storage.

It’s obvious the Israeli air strikes are not effective enough to change Iran’s calculus. Israel would need to run 10-20 sorties a day to truly change the facts on the ground. Airstrike every month or so, is not effective on ANY military target.

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## skyshadow

BlueInGreen2 said:


> I'm just grasping at straws here but wouldn't moving them in broad daylight be some sort of gesture to America and Israel? Granted I don't know exactly what the gesture would be trying to convey but it seems like it could be something.
> 
> To be honest lol, I just would like to think Iran has ramped up missile production recently since the possibility of an open conflict has never been this high in a while so it would just seem logical for Iran to stockpile more missile just in case. Since Iran does seem to be expanding it underground missile bases to, I assume, accommodate for more missiles and TELs.
> 
> Hell, I don't even think we even have an accurate stockpile count right now regarding just how many missiles Iran truly has. I know it's "a lot" but how much is sort of anyones guess lol.



well i hope they are upgrading them or changing materials to something new we recently saw a Qiam missile test with carbon fiber/composite body, but all of that can happen inside of the base, maybe sending a message is more accurate, as for how much missiles do Iran have i'm rooting for 400,000 





*video about the first successful launch of the Shahab-1 rocket with the presence of martyr Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam has been released.




https://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/7176098/فیلم-دیده-نشده-از-اولین-پرتاب-موشک-شهاب-یک-با-حضور-شهید-حسن-تهرانی-مقدم*

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> well i hope they are upgrading them or changing materials to something new we recently saw a Qiam missile test with carbon fiber/composite body, but all of that can happen inside of the base, maybe sending a message is more accurate, as for how much missiles do Iran have i'm rooting for 400,000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *video about the first successful launch of the Shahab-1 rocket with the presence of martyr Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam has been released.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/7176098/فیلم-دیده-نشده-از-اولین-پرتاب-موشک-شهاب-یک-با-حضور-شهید-حسن-تهرانی-مقدم*



physically impossible for Iran to have 400,000 bms. Iran’s long range BMs likely number less than 30,000. Even 30,000 would be a massive number. That would assume Iran is producing 100 LR BMs every month for 20-25 years.

I think the number is closer to 5,000.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Iran’s missile production is based on strategic planning not arbitrarily changing with the wind due to what Israel/US do on a given day or month.
> 
> Some missiles have to be retired due to aging and obsolete models. If I were Iran I would move these missiles to Iraq and let them age there. Since they are liquid even if they get destroyed the explosion would be minimal compared to solid fuel since they would likely not be carrying fuel during transport and storage.
> 
> It’s obvious the Israeli air strikes are not effective enough to change Iran’s calculus. Israel would need to run 10-20 sorties a day to truly change the facts on the ground. Airstrike every month or so, is not effective on ANY military target.



I wish wasn't posting this but it was just too ironic not too.

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...step-up-campaign-against-Iran-in-Syria-611226


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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> I wish wasn't posting this but it was just too ironic not too.
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...step-up-campaign-against-Iran-in-Syria-611226



Iran won’t leave Syria. Even if Israel bombs every military base 100 times, Iran will stay. Israel can not afford a sustained air campaign for long. Look how much it is costing the Saudi’s.

Israel is focusing so much on military it is avoiding its people. 1/3 of people living in poverty. Does that sound like an advanced country?

Iran is planning to surround Israel and eventually make Israel choose between a war or referendum for a true Jewish/Muslim state with equal representation for all religious and ethnic parties. 

This is the “elimination” of Israel that the IR establishment refers to. But MSM would like you to believe that Iran plans to wipe out all the Jews. 

Israel is an unnatural state that will collapse under social-demographics. Once Jews start having less kids they will in time be overrun by Palestinians that have 4-6 kids. The only thing that has allowed Israel to survive this long socio-demographic wise is that Jews traditionally have more kids than Western and even Iranian culture.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> physically impossible for Iran to have 400,000 bms. Iran’s long range BMs likely number less than 30,000. Even 30,000 would be a massive number. That would assume Iran is producing 100 LR BMs every month for 20-25 years.
> 
> I think the number is closer to 5,000.


i know the number is very high that's why i was laughing at it


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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Iran won’t leave Syria. Even if Israel bombs every military base 100 times, Iran will stay. Israel can not afford a sustained air campaign for long. Look how much it is costing the Saudi’s.
> 
> Israel is focusing so much on military it is avoiding its people. 1/3 of people living in poverty. Does that sound like an advanced country?
> 
> Iran is planning to surround Israel and eventually make Israel choose between a war or referendum for a true Jewish/Muslim state with equal representation for all religious and ethnic parties.
> 
> This is the “elimination” of Israel that the IR establishment refers to. But MSM would like you to believe that Iran plans to wipe out all the Jews.
> 
> Israel is an unnatural state that will collapse under social-demographics. Once Jews start having less kids they will in time be overrun by Palestinians that have 4-6 kids. The only thing that has allowed Israel to survive this long socio-demographic wise is that Jews traditionally have more kids than Western and even Iranian culture.



Yeah I agree, just thought it was funny that a little bit after you told me that I type "Iran" on google and bam there was an article talking about how Israel is going to ramp up activities lol.

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> maybe, usually they transfer them at night i do not know why they did this at bright light as they were deploying couple more it could have lots of indications but expecting attack from US or Israel are not that high in the list but they could very well be adding to the storage by breaking the norm and move them so recklessly.



Because due to the vast number of advanced sats U.S. military is equipped with it really doesn't mater if it's done during the day or at night anymore, especially with something that large.... Plus, all they are getting is the view of the entrance.

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## TheImmortal

Iran continues to produce missiles that can reach Israeli territory, Kochavi said, explaining the *Iranian military industry is much larger than all the military industries of Israel combined*, allowing for them to produce more precise and long-range rockets to threaten the Israeli home front.

In addition, *Quds forces in Syria as well as Hezbollah have spectrum barriers and advanced anti-aircraft missiles that can threaten Israeli jets*, which nonetheless continue to have freedom of operation across the Middle East.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpos...i-Conflict-with-Iran-a-possibility-612079/amp

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## 925boy

TheImmortal said:


> It’s obvious the Israeli air strikes are not effective enough to change Iran’s calculus. Israel would need to run 10-20 sorties a day to truly change the facts on the ground. Airstrike every month or so, is not effective on ANY military target.


Gave this post a like mostly because of this. I also recently learned that Iran has a larger military infrastructure than Israel does. Cheers.

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## 925boy

TheImmortal said:


> Iran won’t leave Syria. Even if Israel bombs every military base 100 times, Iran will stay. Israel can not afford a sustained air campaign for long. Look how much it is costing the Saudi’s.
> 
> Israel is focusing so much on military it is avoiding its people. 1/3 of people living in poverty. Does that sound like an advanced country?
> 
> Iran is planning to surround Israel and eventually make Israel choose between a war or referendum for a true Jewish/Muslim state with equal representation for all religious and ethnic parties.
> 
> This is the “elimination” of Israel that the IR establishment refers to. But MSM would like you to believe that Iran plans to wipe out all the Jews.
> 
> Israel is an unnatural state that will collapse under social-demographics. Once Jews start having less kids they will in time be overrun by Palestinians that have 4-6 kids. The only thing that has allowed Israel to survive this long socio-demographic wise is that Jews traditionally have more kids than Western and even Iranian culture.


You've had a good # of very good and accurate posts recently.

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## skyshadow

Iran* has reportedly dispersed naval and air defense units, ballistic missiles are prepared to move and could do so within 24 hours. Next 24-36 hours could reveal whether or not they plan to actually retaliate, as they vowed to do.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214294479504576518


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## skyshadow

*at least 2000 km away from Iran*


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## Hack-Hook

next 36 hours or next 36 day , its all speculation nobody can tell when it will be

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## skyshadow

its cute how these ( a lot of ) people think that is Iran dose not show a missile that means they do not have one they think Iran only show what they built yesterday and they will not hide any missile they only have 2000 km rage 

we all saw Khormshaher 2 missile was dated back to 2009_2010







one of thousand examples


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214334230341267457

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## skyshadow

*this is a problem for our missiles some would say*

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## GWXP

Saudi Arabia has 800 Patriot missiles---with two missiles per target---it can theoretically intercept 400 targets---but with 50% success rate---it will actually intercept 200 targets---So Iran should launch more than 200 missiles

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## Philosopher

GWXP said:


> S-So Iran should launch more than 200 missiles



200 missile LOL. Even houthis have fired more than in saudis arabia. Iran probably has tens of thousands of missiles ready.

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## Stryker1982

GWXP said:


> Saudi Arabia has 800 Patriot missiles---with two missiles per target---it can theoretically intercept 400 targets---but with 50% success rate---it will actually intercept 200 targets---So Iran should launch more than 200 missiles



Bro, even a barrage of 200 missiles within 1 hour time frame will well overwhelm the patriot batterys before they can reload.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214617910699839494^ Whatever this guy is smoking, I need it

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214617910699839494^ Whatever this guy is smoking, I need it


I want to believe.....but I know I can't


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## skyshadow

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214617910699839494^ Whatever this guy is smoking, I need it





Stryker1982 said:


> I want to believe.....but I know I can't



maybe he is not wrong after all we know it exist so maybe they will change its name

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## Aspen

Kuwait, Qatar, and Afghanistan are most likely sites for retaliation. Kuwait's air base is very vulnerable, it would only take Iranian missiles about 10min or less to hit the Kuwaiti airbase from Ahvaz so it would be very vulnerable. Al-Udeid is also at big risk since the drone that killed Soleimani came from Qatar so it could be a primary target. Bagram is a bit farther and too close to Pakistan. If they retaliate, I'd guess it would be against US bases in Kuwait and Qatar.

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## TheImmortal

Stryker1982 said:


> Bro, even a barrage of 200 missiles within 1 hour time frame will well overwhelm the patriot batterys before they can reload.



Patriot is not designed to intercept advanced BMs. It does best with SCUD level tech.

US would use THAAD to target Sejill and other next gen Iran BMs.

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## Sina-1

both Iran and US can muster heavy saturated rocket/CM/BM/etc attacks. In 1000s salvos in a matter of not even an hour. No air defense can stop that.

Heavy casualties will follow on both sides and Iran will make US suffer as they’ve not experienced since ww2. However to what vain? Our home will be destroyed! And once again the Americans will be safe and sound half way across the world.

there is no point to pick a fight if there is no way to project power to them as well.


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## TheImmortal

Sina-1 said:


> both Iran and US can muster heavy saturated rocket/CM/BM/etc attacks. In 1000s salvos in a matter of not even an hour. No air defense can stop that.
> 
> Heavy casualties will follow on both sides and Iran will make US suffer as they’ve not experienced since ww2. However to what vain? Our home will be destroyed! And once again the Americans will be safe and sound half way across the world.
> 
> there is no point to pick a fight if there is no way to project power to them as well.



US doesn’t really use rockets and it’s BMs are nuclear tipped.

US relies mostly on tomahawks and PGM to deliver payload. Along with their new stealth cruise missile for High value targets.

But tomahawks can be jammed, Iran has been experimenting with hammers throughout the country if you read the news pilots are complaining.

Thus US relies overwhelming on aircraft to deliver its punches. During shock and awe campaign tomahawks were used because Iraqi air defenses were non existent.

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## Sina-1

TheImmortal said:


> US doesn’t really use rockets and it’s BMs are nuclear tipped.
> 
> US relies mostly on tomahawks and PGM to deliver payload. Along with their new stealth cruise missile for High value targets.
> 
> But tomahawks can be jammed, Iran has been experimenting with hammers throughout the country if you read the news pilots are complaining.
> 
> Thus US relies overwhelming on aircraft to deliver its punches. During shock and awe campaign tomahawks were used because Iraqi air defenses were non existent.


I hope you are right regarding the anti measures against TH!
Still don’t like the fact that the war will be on our turf.


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## 925boy

TheImmortal said:


> Patriot is not designed to intercept advanced BMs. It does best with SCUD level tech.
> 
> US would use THAAD to target Sejill and other next gen Iran BMs.


How large is THAAD coverage in the ME(US THAADs)??


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## yavar

American on move now i can confirm

DEFCON 2

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214708265935867910Qiam?


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## PeeD

Yes Qiam empty booster stage.

This IRGC-ASF may have been a lesson on how Iran can knock out large airbases and its assets, effectively eliminating the air power it can project. Also a proof that ABM is not effective.

Lets see the damage assessment in the next days.

The blood for the revenge may be planned to be spilled elsewhere. Basically a military technology demonstration about the most important enemy capability: Airpower.

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214725728631246850


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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> Also a proof that ABM is not effective.



Iraq has no ABM, and there were no Aegis ships in the area.



PeeD said:


> The blood for the revenge may be planned to be spilled elsewhere. Basically a military technology demonstration about the most important enemy capability



Come on... they wanted to spill blood here but didn't. If the reports turn out to be true they've only spilled Iraqi blood, which will actually work against us (possibly massively). This could be huge propaganda victory for the Americans.


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## Philosopher

AmirPatriot said:


> Come on... they wanted to spill blood here but didn't.



I am sorry, I did not know we had an Iranian IRGC spokesmen here. Stop talking as if you know what Iran wanted to achieve or not.


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## TheImmortal

I don’t think these missiles had warheads in them.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214729751358775302

Also the failure rate for Iranian missiles is outstanding.


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## aryobarzan

Enjoy..

First videos from target areas.
https://media.farsnews.com/Uploaded/Files/Video/1398/10/18/13981018000064_240P.mp4


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## TheImmortal

aryobarzan said:


> Enjoy..
> 
> First videos from target areas.
> https://media.farsnews.com/Uploaded/Files/Video/1398/10/18/13981018000064_240P.mp4




This is less successful than ISIS missile attack and not in the same league as Kurdistan attack.


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## Blue In Green

Well, that was a really somewhat horrible regarding efficacy.


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## aryobarzan

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Well, that was a really somewhat horrible regarding efficacy.


I am wondering if a follow up ground attack by the PMU is now going to happen ..They also have to take their revenge.!!!


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## Philosopher

It seems this forum is filled with bunch of juvenile kids. These attacks DID hit the bases, pentagon itself confirmed it. This was a masterstroke by Iran, humiliate trump without killing these Americans. It's just the beginning!

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Yes Qiam empty booster stage.
> 
> This IRGC-ASF may have been a lesson on how Iran can knock out large airbases and its assets, effectively eliminating the air power it can project. Also a proof that ABM is not effective.
> 
> Lets see the damage assessment in the next days.
> 
> The blood for the revenge may be planned to be spilled elsewhere. Basically a military technology demonstration about the most important enemy capability: Airpower.



The U.S. had intel on Iranian missile movements so they likely had their ABM systems hot and ready to go reports say at least 10 missiles hit the base so we'll see in the coming day's that if these missile hit anything of worth or not but if they did and the U.S. ABM systems were active and hot then it would really be embarrassing for the companies that built these systems


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## aryobarzan

Assad base photo..

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## Clutch

Mr Robot said:


> It seems this forum is filled with bunch of juvenile kids. These attacks DID hit the bases, pentagon itself confirmed it. This was a masterstroke by Iran, humiliate trump without killing these Americans. It's just the beginning!



The missiles cannot penetrate any structures? Or where they duds to start off with?


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## Philosopher

Clutch said:


> The missiles cannot penetrate any structures? Or where they duds to start off with?



How do you know they have not penetrated any structures?


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## Clutch

Mr Robot said:


> How do you know they have not penetrated any structures?


No casualties... Seem to be pretty ineffective


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## Philosopher

Clutch said:


> No casualties... Seem to be pretty ineffective



No casualty means missile did not penetrate anything?


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## TheImmortal

Mr Robot said:


> It seems this forum is filled with bunch of juvenile kids. These attacks DID hit the bases, pentagon itself confirmed it. This was a masterstroke by Iran, humiliate trump without killing these Americans. It's just the beginning!



There is a difference between a cruise missile and ballistic missile.

Cruise missile it is acceptable for 10%-20% failure rate 

In BMs your main deterrence, Iran is carrying as high as a 30% failure rate.

Imagine if these were nuclear equipped? You would have nuclear equipped missiles landing in middle of no where 

if Iran only has let’s say 5,000 BMs and 20% have failure rate and even 20% get intercepted your actual stockpile is less than half



VEVAK said:


> The U.S. had intel on Iranian missile movements so they likely had their ABM systems hot and ready to go reports say at least 10 missiles hit the base so we'll see in the coming day's that if these missile hit anything of worth or not but if they did and the U.S. ABM systems were active and hot then it would really be embarrassing for the companies that built these systems




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214736921156435968

Pathetic display by Iran. This attack would have been sufficient if the generals would keep their mouth shut and Iranian officials would keep their mouth shut. But they hyped this up to the point anything short of war would look like a failure.

These idiots in Iran Government dared to fly the Martyrdom flag of Imam Hussein and hoist it on the Mosque in Qom for this? 

Iran just told the war “Iranian lives are worth less than US” “5 high ranking deaths including #2 man in Iran is not worth the life of a conscript western soldier”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if NONE of the missiles had a live warhead in them. Basically Iran shot chunks of high speed metal and targeted the runways.


Again if the generals kept their damn mouth shut and officials kept their mouth shut this would be sufficient deterrence. But they couldn’t resist running their mouths and now look like candy-asses.


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## aryobarzan

In the video captured by Iraqis it seems that they have indeed stayed away from the base by about one kilometer (3 second delay between the flash and the sound)..I hope no Iraqis get hurt although they were warned to stay away one kilometer. As for casualties by US claim ..well remember none of their aircrafts ever get shot down it is always technical failure..!!

One last point if there are no US casualities it is also great ...Iran is not after killing few poor US grunts..that is not the aim...the aim is that we can hit you and hurt your inflated pride and that is what they did...

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> There is a difference between a cruise missile and ballistic missile.
> 
> Cruise missile it is acceptable for 10%-20% failure rate
> 
> In BMs your main deterrence, Iran is carrying as high as a 30% failure rate.
> 
> Imagine if these were nuclear equipped? You would have nuclear equipped missiles landing in middle of no where
> 
> if Iran only has let’s say 5,000 BMs and 20% have failure rate and even 20% get intercepted your actual stockpile is less than half
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214736921156435968
> 
> Pathetic display by Iran. This attack would have been sufficient if the generals would keep their mouth shut and Iranian officials would keep their mouth shut. But they hyped this up to the point anything short of war would look like a failure.
> 
> These idiots in Iran Government dared to fly the Martyrdom flag of Imam Hussein and hoist it on the Mosque in Qom for this?
> 
> Iran just told the war “Iranian lives are worth less than US” “5 high ranking deaths including #2 man in Iran is not worth the life of a conscript western soldier”.
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised if NONE of the missiles had a live warhead in them. Basically Iran shot chunks of high speed metal and targeted the runways.
> 
> 
> Again if the generals kept their damn mouth shut and officials kept their mouth shut this would be sufficient deterrence. But they couldn’t resist running their mouths and now look like candy-asses.



Basing your intel based on what the U.S. says is absurd! Historically U.S. NEVER admits to loss of assets or personal unless it is directly in it's interest to do so. 
And I'm not saying the missiles did or didn't hit anything! Truth is I don't know but what I do know is that if the U.S. doesn't wish to escalate then they will NOT admit to any losses for that's the only way they can save face and if they do wish to escalate they will claim casualties even if there were none. So basing assessment based on what the U.S. say is pretty absurd.

Also keep in mind that if this was an all out war you would make adjustment to achieve better accuracy with each barrage of missiles you fire and 12 missiles is a rather small number and most definitely not sufficient enough to disable an Airbase.... 

Now if all the missiles were directed at the runways that would send a rather strong message of Iran's capability to disable US Airbases and at the same time wouldn't kill US military personal or destroy any major assets however the message it would send would be far more valuable. However at this point it's nothing but speculation. Also you don't know if Iran is going to leave it at that or NOT.


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## Type59

Show of strength. I believe Iran's intentions were not to cause mass casualties. Hopefully trump gets the message.

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## Stryker1982

VEVAK said:


> Basing your intel based on what the U.S. says is absurd! Historically U.S. NEVER admits to loss of assets or personal unless it is directly in it's interest to do so.
> And I'm not saying the missiles did or didn't hit anything! Truth is I don't know but what I do know is that if the U.S. doesn't wish to escalate then they will NOT admit to any losses for that's the only way they can save face and if they do wish to escalate they will claim casualties even if there were none. So basing assessment based on what the U.S. say is pretty absurd.
> 
> Also keep in mind that if this was an all out war you would make adjustment to achieve better accuracy with each barrage of missiles you fire and 12 missiles is a rather small number and most definitely not sufficient enough to disable an Airbase....
> 
> Now if all the missiles were directed at the runways that would send a rather strong message of Iran's capability to disable US Airbases and at the same time wouldn't kill US military personal or destroy any major assets however the message it would send would be far more valuable. However at this point it's nothing but speculation. Also you don't know if Iran is going to leave it at that or NOT.


Most likely this is the end of it, and everyone is gonna de-escalate.

Entegham e sakht. I'm sure the grass got a good shit kicking from those missiles.


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## Mr Iran Eye

According to Fars news, a wave of missiles targeted the largest air base in the United States at Al Anbar in western Iraq not far from the Syrian borders. It is a base located 108 kilometers west of Ramadi which since 2011 has housed nearly 7,000 American soldiers. It is also the second largest air base in Iraq. At this time, US helicopters are evacuating the dead and the wounded.
Press Tv


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## PeeD

People criticize me and IRGC-ASF but now Pentagon says that Iran intentionally missed.

We showed Trump what will happen if he dares to do anything.

The revenge will be taken in a different way, IRGC-ASF creates deterrence against strikes on Iran.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214851821992321024

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## Cedric

I think what Iran showed today, is what military commanders already know. The conventional-tipped ballistic missile is not an effective military weapon. It can only terrorize cities. The ballistic missile, with it's typical CEP, was designed to carry a nuclear warhead.
Iran targeted the huge airbase only to ensure that the missiles did not completely miss.
I don't buy the idea that Iran intentionally missed targets on the airbase. 2000 conventional ballistic missiles could have been fired at the airbase and still have a low probability complete destruction of all targets.


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## Philosopher

Cedric said:


> I think what Iran showed today, is what military commanders already know. The conventional-tipped ballistic missile is not an effective military weapon. It can only terrorize cities. The ballistic missile, with it's typical CEP, was designed to carry a nuclear warhead.
> Iran targeted the huge airbase only to ensure that the missiles did not completely miss.
> I don't buy the idea that Iran intentionally missed targets on the airbase. 2000 conventional ballistic missiles could have been fired at the airbase and still have a low probability complete destruction of all targets.



Iran has already used ballistic missiles to target a single room when it attacked the kurds few months ago. This attack was nothing but a deliberate attack on the US base without any casualties. Clearly Iran wanted to do just enough to humiliate trump without spilling American blood, which would have guaranteed war.

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## Aramagedon

BOOM BOOM BOOM ! Americans roasting

The first wave of attacks:

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## PeeD

As anticipated:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214932070893531137
Iran today ended the age of airbase projected airpower, or better said the high value given to it.
Hopefully Trump understands this live demonstration.

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## Cedric

Mr Robot said:


> Iran has already used ballistic missiles to target a single room when it attacked the kurds few months ago. This attack was nothing but a deliberate attack on the US base without any casualties. Clearly Iran wanted to do just enough to humiliate trump without spilling American blood, which would have guaranteed war. Try using your head, is it that hard to understand?



Ok. I understand now. Thankyou.

So it's true then, that Iran is just simply afraid of another decapitating strike.



PeeD said:


> As anticipated ...
> Iran today ended the age of airbase projected airpower, or better said the high value given to it.
> Hopefully Trump understands this live demonstration.



Trump and the US know very well about missile based projected power. It is simply limited by treaty to develop new missiles.
The same reason why the US keeps the B-52 bomber. It is the only bomber approved by treaty with Russia to carry nuclear weapons. The treaty states that the US can not arm the B-2 or the older B-1 with nuclear weapons.

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## Clutch

It seems like all parties are interested in de-escalation of the conflict... Which is good for world peace...!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214891478683652096
^ According to CNN

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> As anticipated:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214932070893531137
> Iran today ended the age of airbase projected airpower, or better said the high value given to it.
> Hopefully Trump understands this live demonstration.



Look at the destruction, specifically the bunker pic on the left.

These missiles did not have warheads or if they did very small ones.

I mean it looks like they were hit with low level cruise missiles not a BM coming in at Mach 8 with a 600kg warhead

Something fishy going on


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214936455799283713

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## TheImmortal

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214936455799283713



Doesn’t look like the explosive yield of a Fateh-110 warhead


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## yavar

unfortunately is over and we will see no more capabilities


but there will be revenge on U.S personal and Generals

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Look at the destruction, specifically the bunker pic on the left.
> 
> These missiles did not have warheads or if they did very small ones.
> 
> I mean it looks like they were hit with low level cruise missiles not a BM coming in at Mach 8 with a 600kg warhead
> 
> Something fishy going on



All good:

Fateh series kill one point object with a ~500kg warhead.
500kg is not a large warhead, it just kills that point.

It also hits at mach 3,5.

Goal of this tactical weapon is to destroy A SINGLE point-target. Hangars, bunkers etc.

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## Philosopher

If Iran wanted dead Americans, imagine a khoramshahr missile with 1.8 ton cluster warhead. Holy crap!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214951286849900547

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> All good:
> 
> Fateh series kill one point object with a ~500kg warhead.
> 500kg is not a large warhead, it just kills that point.
> 
> It also hits at mach 3,5.
> 
> Goal of this tactical weapon is to destroy A SINGLE point-target. Hangars, bunkers etc.



Except Iran said it also used Qiam with 800kg warhead as well.


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## arashkamangir

TheImmortal said:


> Except Iran said it also used Qiam with 800kg warhead as well.



They hit just the outside the facility at Iraqi Kurdistan with Qiam. They also missed on purpose. The entire goal here was to create material damage and demo intention to descalate but also show a big stick. 

As yavar and others have said, the real revenge will come. My guess is, they will start assassination campaign and increase heat under US *** to accelerate exit. I mentioned this multiple times already, the resistance is after purging US out of Middle East and that's going to happen not by war but by increasing US operating cost as well as politics.

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## TheImmortal

arashkamangir said:


> They hit just the outside the facility at Iraqi Kurdistan with Qiam. They also missed on purpose. The entire goal here was to create material damage and demo intention to descalate but also show a big stick.
> 
> As yavar and others have said, the real revenge will come. My guess is, they will start assassination campaign and increase heat under US *** to accelerate exit. I mentioned this multiple times already, the resistance is after purging US out of Middle East and that's going to happen not by war but by increasing US operating cost as well as politics.



Iran has already said it targeted only the Al-Asad base and not Erbil base. That was someone else they claim.

So again 50% accuracy. It seems Qiam missile has terrible accuracy based on strikes against ISIS and Kurdistan and now this as well. They could have hit the runways and with clusterwarhead and it would be far away from any people.

Iran should work to fix the issues

Operational effectiveness of this strike:
D+ or C-

There was also no active interceptors in the area. So Iran basically had free reign.


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## Sina-1

TheImmortal said:


> Operational effectiveness of this strike:
> D+ or C-


From Iranian BM superpower perspective, sure. The damage could have been more decisive.

However it is still incredible accuracy on Fateh series. Amazing pin point <10m accuracy

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## arashkamangir

TheImmortal said:


> Iran has already said it targeted only the Al-Asad base and not Erbil base. That was someone else they claim.
> 
> So again 50% accuracy. It seems Qiam missile has terrible accuracy based on strikes against ISIS and Kurdistan and now this as well. They could have hit the runways and with clusterwarhead and it would be far away from any people.
> 
> Iran should work to fix the issues
> 
> Operational effectiveness of this strike:
> D+ or C-
> 
> There was also no active interceptors in the area. So Iran basically had free reign.



Well, I am all for debugging and fixing reliability issues but at the same time, do we then have evidence that Qiam was fired at all?


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## VEVAK

Stryker1982 said:


> Most likely this is the end of it, and everyone is gonna de-escalate.
> 
> Entegham e sakht. I'm sure the grass got a good shit kicking from those missiles.



Iran's intention was to send a message that we have missiles that have the range, accuracy & destructive power to take you on and your ABM systems even with advanced warning aren't sufficient enough to stop them. 

Fact is due to advances made to Air Defense systems today plus the capabilities of U.S. Air Power even if Iran had a fleet of 200 Su-30's and 100 Su-34's they still wouldn't of been sufficient enough to carry out even this limited attack that the IRGC carried out and I think at home this should prove to Iranian leaders the importance of our missile program and how vital it is to increase funding to improve our capabilities and increase our stockpile and it's further prof of why Iran can NEVER negotiate on any part of our missile program. 

Iran's missile attack showed that Iran both has the willingness and the capability to hit U.S. bases if attacked and Iran can hit U.S. bases using 100% domestically produced missiles so no naval blockade or sanction could ever stop the production of these missiles so if the U.S. starts a war with Iran they will have no control over how or when it would end.

I think for now Iran's response is sufficient and any further escalation needs to be at the time and place of our choosing so the real entegham may not come for years and it needs to be on our time table not theirs but for now it's time Iran's leadership pays better attention to our military industry and properly funds the expansion of our military through domestic production.
We have only just started the production of advanced SAM systems so we still need to build a sufficient stockpile, Iran's Submarine production needs far greater funding, we need to continue to increase our Cruise Missile & Ballistic Missiles stockpile, we need to increase our space activities, we need to vastly increase UAV & UCAV's to make up for our outdated Air Force.....



arashkamangir said:


> Well, I am all for debugging and fixing reliability issues but at the same time, do we then have evidence that Qiam was fired at all?


YES!
https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...بکارگیری-موشک-های-قیام-در-عملیات-شهید-سلیمانی

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## TheImmortal

arashkamangir said:


> Well, I am all for debugging and fixing reliability issues but at the same time, do we then have evidence that Qiam was fired at all?



Yes Iran already said a mixture of Fatehs and Qiam were used.

Maybe Iran is burning through old generations of Qiam. But most missiles that fail or miss target have been Qiams.

It might be time to retire that missile if it hasn’t been retired already.



VEVAK said:


> Iran's intention was to send a message that we have missiles that have the range, accuracy & destructive power to take you on and your ABM systems even with advanced warning aren't sufficient enough to stop them.
> 
> Fact is due to advances made to Air Defense systems today plus the capabilities of U.S. Air Power even if Iran had a fleet of 200 Su-30's and 100 Su-34's they still wouldn't of been sufficient enough to carry out even this limited attack that the IRGC carried out and I think at home this should prove to Iranian leaders the importance of our missile program and how vital it is to increase funding to improve our capabilities and increase our stockpile and it's further prof of why Iran can NEVER negotiate on any part of our missile program.
> 
> Iran's missile attack showed that Iran both has the willingness and the capability to hit U.S. bases if attacked and Iran can hit U.S. bases using 100% domestically produced missiles so no naval blockade or sanction could ever stop the production of these missiles so if the U.S. starts a war with Iran they will have no control over how or when it would end.
> 
> I think for now Iran's response is sufficient and any further escalation needs to be at the time and place of our choosing so the real entegham may not come for years and it needs to be on our time table not theirs but for now it's time Iran's leadership pays better attention to our military industry and properly funds the expansion of our military through domestic production.
> We have only just started the production of advanced SAM systems so we still need to build a sufficient stockpile, Iran's Submarine production needs far greater funding, we need to continue to increase our Cruise Missile & Ballistic Missiles stockpile, we need to increase our space activities, we need to vastly increase UAV & UCAV's to make up for our outdated Air Force.....
> 
> 
> YES!
> https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...بکارگیری-موشک-های-قیام-در-عملیات-شهید-سلیمانی



Iran will soon realize that CMs can do the same thing as BMs are cheaper cost. The fact no CMs were used in this attacks is outstanding stupid. 

You are bragging about a missile strike on a DEFENELESS target that still resulted in 40-50% FAILURE RATE on a target the size of a small town!!!

Vevak’s propaganda machine is in full swing.

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## skyshadow

Satellite photos taken Wednesday* show that an Iranian missile strike has caused extensive damage* at the *Ain al-Assad air base* in Iraq, which hosts U.S. and coalition troops.

The photos, taken by the commercial company Planet and shared with NPR via the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, *show hangars and buildings hit hard by a barrage of Iranian missiles* that were fired early Wednesday morning local time.

*At least five structures were damaged in the attack* on the base in Anbar province, *which apparently was precise enough to hit individual buildings. "Some of the locations struck look like the missiles hit dead center,"* says David Schmerler, an analyst with the Middlebury Institute.

Iran's attack targeted at least two military bases in Iraq. The extent of the damage to the second base, in Irbil, was unclear.









https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/7945...-reveal-extent-of-damage-at-al-assad-air-base

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Yes Iran already said a mixture of Fatehs and Qiam were used.
> 
> Maybe Iran is burning through old generations of Qiam. But most missiles that fail or miss target have been Qiams.
> 
> It might be time to retire that missile if it hasn’t been retired already.
> 
> 
> 
> Iran will soon realize that CMs can do the same thing as BMs are cheaper cost. The fact no CMs were used in this attacks is outstanding stupid.
> 
> You are bragging about a missile strike on a DEFENELESS target that still resulted in 40-50% FAILURE RATE on a target the size of a small town!!!
> 
> Vevak’s propaganda machine is in full swing.



Yea US Air Force bases are defenseless! LOL! CM's are far easier to intercept as was proven in Syria against American CM's!

FYI 50% success rate is rather standard for BM's and in an all out war that number would naturally reduce the more your fire.

And the Base is the size of a small town not the targets that were hit....

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Yea US Air Force bases are defenseless! LOL! CM's are far easier to intercept as was proven in Syria against American CM's!
> 
> FYI 50% success rate is rather standard for BM's and in an all out war that number would naturally reduce the more your fire.
> 
> And the Base is the size of a small town not the targets that were hit....



It has been confirmed there were no Missile interceptors around Al Assad. So wether you fired CMs or BMs there was nothing to shoot them down.

And 50% is a terrible BM rate. You think Russian/Chinese/US missiles that are nuclear tipped are gonna fail to reach their target and just fall out of the sky?

This means Iran needs to build twice as many missiles to account for the difference. I’m sorry a 100,000 missile force is stupid, costly, and impossible.

Conventional BMs are not the future for Iran.

Stop spreading propaganda Baghdad Bob and accept reality.

In due time I will be proven right like usual. Everyone here is acting like a nationalistic fanboy instead of looking at this from non-bias prospective.

This level of damage could have been done with just 2 SU-35s. But of course Vevak will tell you that US Patriot/THAAD missiles are invulnerable to aircraft and their only weakness is BMs. Lol sounds like we got a lobbyist for Iranian missile industry on this forum.


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## Raghfarm007

Video of Shock and awe carried out on the yanks:

If people really think that over 11 tons of high explosives didn´t kill a large number of yanks, then they must think that Rambo movies are documentaries!


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## TheImmortal

Raghfarm007 said:


> Video of Shock and awe carried out on the yanks:
> 
> If people really think that over 11 tons of high explosives didn´t kill a large number of yanks, then they must think that Rambo movies are documentaries!



Come on man give it a rest.

Nobody is hiding casualty numbers. Stop with the propaganda.


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## yavar



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## Raghfarm007

Why do you not think they are hiding casualties? You believe anything the US government says? 
How many times do they have to lie, before you realise they are incapable of telling the truth?
Do you not remember when under Bush, they werent allowed to even photopraph US coffines coming home??!

Did you you see the severity of mutiple explosions in the video?
Did you read the NPR report saying that there were exrensive damage done to the base?

Do you think the "grab them by the pu$$y" guy is going to come and say we had over 100 deaths and over 200 injuries, in this electins year?

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## TheImmortal

Raghfarm007 said:


> Why do you not think they are hiding casualties? You believe anything the US government says?
> How many times do they have to lie, before you realise they are incapable of telling the truth?
> Do you not remember when under Bush, they werent allowed to even photopraph US coffines coming home??!
> 
> Did you you see the severity of mutiple explosions in the video?
> Did you read the NPR report saying that there were exrensive damage done to the base?
> 
> Do you think the "grab them by the pu$$y" guy is going to come and say we had over 100 deaths and over 200 injuries, in this electins year?



Keep living in a fairytale land where the US can hide 100 deaths and 200 injuries from EVERYONE.

In due time you will accept reality.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Keep living in a fairytale land where the US can hide 100 deaths and 200 injuries from EVERYONE.
> 
> In due time you will accept reality.



Thing is there is credence in that argument though, U.S. had lied extensively and consistently about war casualties in the past and lies all the time about so many other subjects; given how things are going currently it would be prudent for him to de-escalate the situation since he doesn't seem to be the 'war' type so to speak. From my perspective it is rather clear Trump is possibly a little spooked by Iran's quick response and ability (how ever lackluster) to hit American military installations rather precisely. 

I'm not categorically dismissing the notion that the U.S. had *zero *casualties but it is fair to assume that there is some level of deception going on.

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## Arminkh

Iran didn't want to put US in a position to not be able to back down. It showed its missile power but either gave them notice to move out or as Pentagon says avoided hitting the US troops. Result is this conciliatory tone:

https://www.rt.com/usa/477742-trump-responds-iran-strike-us-bases/

Didn't Trump say we would hit Iran hard if it even hits our infrastructure ? Well doesn't seem so. He got the message.

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## Blue In Green

Arminkh said:


> Iran didn't want to put US in a position to not be able to back down. It showed its missile power but either gave them notice to move out or as Pentagon says avoided hitting the US troops. Result is this conciliatory tone:
> 
> https://www.rt.com/usa/477742-trump-responds-iran-strike-us-bases/
> 
> Didn't Trump say we would hit Iran hard if it even hits our infrastructure ? Well doesn't seem so. He got the message.



If we wanna be fair, we can just say that whatever anyone wants to believe is fair game however deluded it might be (depending on your perspective). The way I see it is that this was indeed a demonstration (efficacy aside) of Iranian resolve and indigenous capability to strike back at America's most important war-time fighting ability which is their air force infrastructure and planes. 

We have to remember here that Trump said, verbatim, that *any *Iranian retaliation would be met by a harsher American counter-response yet Trump looking rather worn out, went on television tying to de-escalate the entire thing. So I think one can be forgiven id they wanted to believe or not believe one side over the other. After-all governments lie, and they lie *a lot*.

Whether you want to believe America or Iran regarding how many died or got hurt is fair game, the way I see it is that Iran (hopefully) has re-established some level of deterrence against the U.S.

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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Thing is there is credence in that argument though, U.S. had lied extensively and consistently about war casualties in the past and lies all the time about so many other subjects; given how things are going currently it would be prudent for him to de-escalate the situation since he doesn't seem to be the 'war' type so to speak. From my perspective it is rather clear Trump is possibly a little spooked by Iran's quick response and ability (how ever lackluster) to hit American military installations rather precisely.
> 
> I'm not categorically dismissing the notion that the U.S. had *zero *casualties but it is fair to assume that there is some level of deception going on.



US does not hide casualties unless they are special forces or CIA agents. Israel is known to initially hide casualties because the military Has a media censor and can blackout anything it wants.

So please post proof that US hides casualties.

The not taking pictures of coffins during Iraq war was a measure of respect and to keep public opinion about the war from getting too negative.

As the old saying goes an image says a thousand words. A plane full of coffins is much more powerful than a news headline over the course of a couple weeks that say 20 soldiers died.


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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> Keep living in a fairytale land where the US can hide 100 deaths and 200 injuries from EVERYONE.
> 
> In due time you will accept reality.


are you child or usa lovers ,go have photo with trump they have 200 injaurise and dont have one death.when some one sleep you can wake him up but pertending sleeping no


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## Arminkh

BlueInGreen2 said:


> If we wanna be fair, we can just say that whatever anyone wants to believe is fair game however deluded it might be (depending on your perspective). The way I see it is that this was indeed a demonstration (efficacy aside) of Iranian resolve and indigenous capability to strike back at America's most important war-time fighting ability which is their air force infrastructure and planes.
> 
> We have to remember here that Trump said, verbatim, that *any *Iranian retaliation would be met by a harsher American counter-response yet Trump looking rather worn out, went on television tying to de-escalate the entire thing. So I think one can be forgiven id they wanted to believe or not believe one side over the other. After-all governments lie, and they lie *a lot*.
> 
> Whether you want to believe America or Iran regarding how many died or got hurt is fair game, the way I see it is that Iran (hopefully) has re-established some level of deterrence against the U.S.


We always said Iran's government is very measured and strategic. I think they just proved that again. This was the best answer they could have given. Reestablished their position without killing anyone. Who is the terrorist now?

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## PeeD

Qiams were apparently used to create craters in various runway sections: A clear capability-only demonstration that means base operations can be also stopped by heavy warheads that create deep craters.

All was a IRGC-ASF capability demonstration on live U.S targets.

I wonder why some talk about 50% success rate? Any crater in no-where?

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## arashkamangir

@PeeD you have sources for the runway craters?


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## Blue In Green

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214952888386117634
Like it or hate it, Iran did score a decent amount of hits on American targets.

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## PeeD

arashkamangir said:


> @PeeD you have sources for the runway craters?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215026615429816320

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## Stryker1982

BlueInGreen2 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214952888386117634
> Like it or hate it, Iran did score a decent amount of hits on American targets.


Yup, and Trump was willing to back down after. Iran gave a message that in case you decide to think I am weak and you can start a war, that we can badly bomb your warfighting infrastructure in just one volley (Albeit, this volley was much less than what is required, we all know Iran can do more).



PeeD said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215026615429816320


What do you think about his Asinine claim that these missiles had a CEP of 100m. Madness this man is.

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## Philosopher

Stryker1982 said:


> What do you think about his Asinine claim that these missiles had a CEP of 100m. Madness this man is.



This Michael Elleman is widely ridiculed for his silly statements and "analysis".
His genius assumption is all of the Iranian strikes were aiming for "one point" and somehow magically still managed to target specific areas like shelters and runways etc. He think those are just coincidences I bet.

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> Yup, and Trump was willing to back down after. Iran gave a message that in case you decide to think I am weak and you can start a war, that we can badly bomb your warfighting infrastructure in just one volley (Albeit, this volley was much less than what is required, we all know Iran can do more).
> 
> 
> What do you think about his Asinine claim that these missiles had a CEP of 100m. Madness this man is.



To be fair Western military analysts in general have a bad image of Iran due to the weird and outlandish unveilings that have been periodically dolled out over years so I wanna say that many analysts just have this inherent skepticism of Iranian military equipment no matter what. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to it honestly, everyone and their mothers made fun of Iranians saying they won't ever attack America since Iran is too 'weak' and 'scared' or that Iran will be 'wiped out' if they even dared to try yet here we have Iran attacking with pin-point accuracy against American targets. More over Trump painted America in a corner by saying U.S. will retaliate no matter what and yet we didn't see any counter-attack but we actually see the U.S. back-peddling in an effort to de-escalate. Let's hope this was enough to satiate both parties for now, only time can tell what going to happen. This could just be a first in a series of tit-for-tats, we don't know fully what this attack has achieved but we can surely speculate about it.

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## PeeD

Two somewhat wild possibilities:

8-9 hits on various targets have been found so far.

If emission info on Patriot radar is correct, it's possible that some Fateh series missiles of the total of 15 were used to destroy the Patriot. It could have been stationed quite far away from the base we have satellite photos from.

The other one is the possibility that cluster warheads, were used with some Qiams. Where? Maybe of soft targets such as Helicopters which were removed before the image was taken.

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> Two somewhat wild possibilities:
> 
> 8-9 hits on various targets have been found so far.
> 
> If emission info on Patriot radar is correct, it's possible that some Fateh series missiles of the total of 15 were used to destroy the Patriot. It could have been stationed quite far away from the base we have satellite photos from.
> 
> The other one is the possibility that cluster warheads, were used with some Qiams. Where? Maybe of soft targets such as Helicopters which were removed before the image was taken.



So there was a Patriot system set up at the base?


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## Stryker1982

BlueInGreen2 said:


> So there was a Patriot system set up at the base?


It appears so.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214833605186326529

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## Sina-1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215022987822411776

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## Arminkh

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/477759-iran-missiles-subdued-us-strike/

According to this, out of 17 missiles fired at Al Assad, 15 hit their targets, and two hit but didn't detonate.

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## skyshadow



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214993080488730629













https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-missile-strikes-on-al-assad-air-base-in-iraq

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## Ich

Normally i would not laugh but the one with the 5 shelters and exactly in center of all centers of this 5 shelters there explode the missile, it is just funny.

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## Sineva

Arminkh said:


> https://www.rt.com/op-ed/477759-iran-missiles-subdued-us-strike/
> 
> According to this, out of 17 missiles fired at Al Assad, 15 hit their targets, and two hit but didn't detonate.


Looks like they may need to check on the fuse design,as there should be at least a couple of systems both advanced and basic to ensure detonation,tho it could`ve been a failure of the arming systems.



Ich said:


> Normally i would not laugh but the one with the 5 shelters and exactly in center of all centers of this 5 shelters there explode the missile, it is just funny.


Yes,I suspect that this particular target was chosen deliberately just to show how accurate the weapons are,it was a literal "right between the eyes" type shot with a cep in the low single digits.Very impressive.

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## arashkamangir

PeeD said:


> Two somewhat wild possibilities:
> 
> 8-9 hits on various targets have been found so far.
> 
> If emission info on Patriot radar is correct, it's possible that some Fateh series missiles of the total of 15 were used to destroy the Patriot. It could have been stationed quite far away from the base we have satellite photos from.
> 
> The other one is the possibility that cluster warheads, were used with some Qiams. Where? Maybe of soft targets such as Helicopters which were removed before the image was taken.




There are no wreckage for aircrafts in the released sat imagery, are there any that I have missed? Also there is a 3 day gap between FieldMarshal's scene and last night's. They could have been removed though that is unlikely in the the high tension environment.

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## Philosopher

Interesting. 

The shape of fins on this variant of Fateh 313 / Zulfiqar missile is different than any known variant.






@PeeD @VEVAK

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## GWXP

US Kadena air base in Japan is similar to Ain al Assad air base. and Chinese CSS-6 missile is similar to Fateh-313

_"Calculations based on RAND Corporation analyses show that *forty CSS-6 warheads configured as cluster munitions could completely cover all the areas where big-wing aircraft would stand between landing and takeoff*.(Some fighter-sized aircraft could survive such an attack, because Kadena has fifteen hardened shelters.) Of course, the effectiveness of a cluster-munition attack depends on how many large aircraft are on the ground at the time."
_
So, absent air defenses, 40 missiles are needed to take out not sheltered aircrafts on the base as large as Kadena air base

In Israel 6 sites (26 production units) produce 50% of electricity and 5 desalination plants produce 50% of water------so 50 hits can leave Israel without half of its electricity and water

100 precise hits will send Israel to stone age

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## Sineva

GWXP said:


> US Kadena air base in Japan is similar to Ain al Assad air base. and Chinese CSS-6 missile is similar to Fateh-313
> 
> _"Calculations based on RAND Corporation analyses show that *forty CSS-6 warheads configured as cluster munitions could completely cover all the areas where big-wing aircraft would stand between landing and takeoff*.(Some fighter-sized aircraft could survive such an attack, because Kadena has fifteen hardened shelters.) Of course, the effectiveness of a cluster-munition attack depends on how many large aircraft are on the ground at the time."
> _
> So, absent air defenses, 40 missiles are needed to take out not sheltered aircrafts on the base as large as Kadena air base
> 
> In Israel 6 sites (26 production units) produce 50% of electricity and 5 desalination plants produce 50% of water------so 50 hits can leave Israel without half of its electricity and water
> 
> 100 precise hits will send Israel to stone age


That is what really worries the israelis when it comes to hezbollah achieving the creation of even a small force of pgms.

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## GWXP

So far 9 precise hits

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## TheImmortal

General Milley (the idiot that wrote the pullout draft left) and Sec of Defense Esper just said that they believed Iran was targeting to kill US soldiers.

Unbelievable these guys will spin any lie.

There is no appeasing war mongers I hope Iran understands that now. It best learn a lesson from Chamberlain attempting to please Hitler before WW2.

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## Sineva

TheImmortal said:


> General Milley (the idiot that wrote the pullout draft left) and Sec of Defense Esper just said that they believed Iran was targeting to kill US soldiers.
> 
> Unbelievable these guys will spin any lie.
> 
> There is no appeasing war mongers I hope Iran understands that now. It best learn a lesson from Chamberlain attempting to please Hitler before WW2.


Yes,sadly theres just no winning with these demented ar$ehats,first its that iran was too chicken to risk killing any us personnel,now its that iran wanted to kill them but by the grace of god just wasnt able to.
*UTTER BULLSH!T*

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## Aramagedon

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214617910699839494


Nothing is impossible for children of Achaemenid empire.

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## Safriz

Aramagedon said:


> Nothing is impossible for us.


a country who does not have nuclear weapons cannot have a missile carrying 10 nuclear warheads?

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## NaCon

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214979584791371776

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## Blue In Green

Wanted to pose this question to anyone who cares lol, you guys think Iran will see a reason to possibly increase missile production (make more missile bases, construct more missiles, conduct more tests, etc..) or at the very least increase the defense spending budget?

It really seems that Iran has struck gold with the Zulfaghar (any Fateh variant from 313 onwards really) and the Qiam-1 so I assume Iran can now produce them in bigger quantities without much qualms about it's efficacy since they are an effective weapons platform. 

America says Iran has around "2,000" BMs but I wanna say that number is a conservative estimate, so the real number is most likely larger, but by how much I can't quite say.

Just goes to show how extensive the Fateh line of missiles really is.

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## NaCon

A couple of questions for thought:
- why in every iranian ballistic missile attack a Qiam missile is launched?
- what kind of a payload is it carrying?


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## GWXP

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Wanted to pose this question to anyone who cares lol, you guys think Iran will see a reason to possibly increase missile production (make more missile bases, construct more missiles, conduct more tests, etc..) or at the very least increase the defense spending budget?
> 
> It really seems that Iran has struck gold with the Zulfaghar (any Fateh variant from 313 onwards really) and the Qiam-1 so I assume Iran can now produce them in bigger quantities without much qualms about it's efficacy since they are an effective weapons platform.
> 
> America says Iran has around "2,000" BMs but I wanna say that number is a conservative estimate, so the real number is most likely larger, but by how much I can't quite say.
> 
> Just goes to show how extensive the Fateh line of missiles really is.


1)Do you have a source for 2000 missiles estimate---I read it on Foxnews but I want a more reliable source

2) Iran needs to mass produce only three types of missiles: 1)Fateh-313 (500km range and recently showed itself very well) 2)Dezful (1000km range) 3) Khorramshahr (2000km range)


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## Messerschmitt

NaCon said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214979584791371776
> View attachment 598762
> View attachment 598761




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215143621307064320

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## Blue In Green

GWXP said:


> 1)Do you have a source for 2000 missiles estimate---I read it on Foxnews but I want a more reliable source
> 
> 2) Iran needs to mass produce only three types of missiles: 1)Fateh-313 (500km range and recently showed itself very well) 2)Dezful (1000km range) 3) Khorramshahr (2000km range)



https://www.fox5dc.com/news/missile...ousing-us-troops-us-defense-officials-confirm

Here is an article quoting "U.S. intelligence" about the 2,000 Ballistic missiles number. 

There was also a tweet mentioning that number as well but I can't find it currently, will post it here if I find it again.


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## skyshadow

*IRGC going to give more evidence of the attack they could show casualties this time as they are saying that West is trying to show our attack was nothing, so let see what they have to say.*

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## scimitar19

GWXP said:


> So far 9 precise hits
> View attachment 598745


Other 6 were cluster munition warheads?



BlueInGreen2 said:


> https://www.fox5dc.com/news/missile...ousing-us-troops-us-defense-officials-confirm
> 
> Here is an article quoting "U.S. intelligence" about the 2,000 Ballistic missiles number.
> 
> There was also a tweet mentioning that number as well but I can't find it currently, will post it here if I find it again.



Well its a progress that we came from 22 ballistic missiles now to 2000 of them and since Iran fired 15 of them they are left no more than 1985 missiles.

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## Ich

scimitar19 said:


> Well its a progress that we came from 22 ballistic missiles now to 2000 of them and since Iran fired 15 of them they are left no more than 1985 missiles.



 i like your sarcasm


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## yavar

شاھین میزایل said:


> a country who does not have nuclear weapons cannot have a missile carrying 10 nuclear warheads?


ok I make sure i tell the stablishment 

but remeber one thing if showed such missle then make sure you dont say it is with out nuclear warhead

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## Hack-Hook

NaCon said:


> A couple of questions for thought:
> - why in every iranian ballistic missile attack a Qiam missile is launched?
> - what kind of a payload is it carrying?


nothing a Fateh Family missile cant carry , but don't forget these are two different type of missile Fateh Missiles variant are Quasi ballistic but Qiam Missile is a ballistic one .
also Qiam variant is using technology fairly new to us and we want to use them for future generation of our missiles so it's not strange if we want to test them and make those technologies more mature .

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## Messerschmitt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...020a0c-30c7-11ea-9313-6cba89b1b9fb_story.html

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## Aramagedon

Messerschmitt said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...020a0c-30c7-11ea-9313-6cba89b1b9fb_story.html


*Yankees will retreat when we unveil our rockets like this armed with Nuclear warheads:*

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran...d-picture-from-a-monster-rocket-engine.642881

Shaheed Soleimani Nuclear ICBM


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## NaCon

Hack-Hook said:


> nothing a Fateh Family missile cant carry , but don't forget these are two different type of missile Fateh Missiles variant are Quasi ballistic but Qiam Missile is a ballistic one .
> also Qiam variant is using technology fairly new to us and we want to use them for future generation of our missiles so it's not strange if we want to test them and make those technologies more mature .








or something of similar effect


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## skyshadow

*«ضربات موشکی» ایران آغاز یک عملیات بزرگ در کل منطقه است/ می‌توانستیم ۵۰۰ کشته به آمریکایی‌ها تحمیل کنیم*

https://defapress.ir/fa/news/378812...ی‌توانستیم-۵۰۰-کشته-به-آمریکایی‌ها-تحمیل-کنیم









*حمله الکترونیک به پهپادهای آمریکایی/ قطع ارتباط پهپادهای «MQ-9» آمریکایی توسط سپاه*


https://defapress.ir/fa/news/378829...ی-قطع-ارتباط-پهپادهای-mq-9-آمریکایی-توسط-سپاه


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## Iskander

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215326262622703616

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## Sina-1

Shockwaves 
Seriously though think about a sustained attack! That base would literally be unusable! If they are not able to intercept Iranian missiles then future conflict will be very different to what US fanboys might think.





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215321649140195331



Side note: funny tweet 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215012821546741760

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## TheImmortal

Sina-1 said:


> Shockwaves
> Seriously though think about a sustained attack! That base would literally be unusable! If they are not able to intercept Iranian missiles then future conflict will be very different to what US fanboys might think.
> View attachment 598855
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215321649140195331
> 
> 
> 
> Side note: funny tweet
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215012821546741760



I have my doubts wether they were carrying warheads. Specially the Qiams which can carry 600+kg warheads. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the missiles or many of them don’t carry warheads.

for example in your post the picture of the tent bunker, a 500kg warhead would demolish all 3 tents. But a missile carrying no warhead is likely to do that damage.

I mean 500kg is over 1000lbs! Go look at air strikes of fighter jets dropping 1000lbs pound PGM. 

F-16 drops 500lb bomb






That’s a 225kg PGM! Now imagine a 500kg missile plus amplified effect of Mach 4-8 impact.

That must world strongest tent material!

Something is fishy

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## GWXP

If there were no warheads experts could have already noticed it...structures were large:50m x 100m....and they were destroyed by 500kg warhead

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## TheImmortal

GWXP said:


> If there were no warheads experts could have already noticed it...structures were large:50m x 100m....and they were destroyed by 500kg warhead



Go look at what one Fateh-313 direct hit did to Kurdistan HQ and compare it.

And no twitter “expert” would notice because none of them are on the ground to examine the parts.

If you do basic physics you can calculate the explosive kinetic force of an object falling from X height by Y Weight by Z speed.

If you Build a missile with a enough weight and speed reaching a certain apogee, then even without a warhead it could reach massive destructive levels.

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## MKALE1

Sina-1 said:


> Shockwaves
> Seriously though think about a sustained attack! That base would literally be unusable! If they are not able to intercept Iranian missiles then future conflict will be very different to what US fanboys might think.
> View attachment 598855
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215321649140195331
> 
> 
> 
> Side note: funny tweet
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215012821546741760


And i dont think they are normal glass.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> I have my doubts wether they were carrying warheads. Specially the Qiams which can carry 600+kg warheads.
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the missiles or many of them don’t carry warheads.
> 
> for example in your post the picture of the tent bunker, a 500kg warhead would demolish all 3 tents. But a missile carrying no warhead is likely to do that damage.
> 
> I mean 500kg is over 1000lbs! Go look at air strikes of fighter jets dropping 1000lbs pound PGM.
> 
> F-16 drops 500lb bomb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s a 225kg PGM! Now imagine a 500kg missile plus amplified effect of Mach 4-8 impact.
> 
> That must world strongest tent material!
> 
> Something is fishy



Mach 4 to Mach 8 are the missiles max speed at altitude NOT it's speed upon impact!!!! How much more damage did you think 450kg to 650kg standard warheads were going to make???? Your not going to destroy 4 bunkers per missile with a 600kg conventional warhead! And it's not like Iran hasn't used these missiles in the past in both Iraq and Syria so feel free to compare...

Iran's message here was to prove it's capabilities and make it clear to this U.S. administration that a war with Iran unlike previous US wars will result in Iran hitting back at not just U.S. bases but at U.S. assets stationed at those bases and hitting that base in particular with precision strikes proves Iran's capability to hit all U.S. bases in Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar & Oman with precision strikes and at the very least all US bases within 700km of Iran in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Turkey & Afghanistan will all be at risk.... 

Since WW2 can you name any country that has directly carried out precision strikes against U.S. assets at U.S. bases 100's of kilometers from it's own boarders???? Since WW2 U.S. has NOT directly faced an enemy as strong as Iran and that is a message this U.S. administration clearly had trouble understanding.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215357169916203008


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Mach 4 to Mach 8 are the missiles max speed at altitude NOT it's speed upon impact!!!! How much more damage did you think 450kg to 650kg standard warheads were going to make???? Your not going to destroy 4 bunkers per missile with a 600kg conventional warhead! And it's not like Iran hasn't used these missiles in the past in both Iraq and Syria so feel free to compare...
> 
> Iran's message here was to prove it's capabilities and make it clear to this U.S. administration that a war with Iran unlike previous US wars will result in Iran hitting back at not just U.S. bases but at U.S. assets stationed at those bases and hitting that base in particular with precision strikes proves Iran's capability to hit all U.S. bases in Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar & Oman with precision strikes and at the very least all US bases within 700km of Iran in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Turkey & Afghanistan will all be at risk....
> 
> Since WW2 can you name any country that has directly carried out precision strikes against U.S. assets at U.S. bases 100's of kilometers from it's own boarders???? Since WW2 U.S. has NOT directly faced an enemy as strong as Iran and that is a message this U.S. administration clearly had trouble understanding.



The picture I am referring to clearly shows they are TENTS not reinforced concrete bunkers!

Must be a strong tent that only one gets wiped out! Iran should start building its bases out of that material!


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## WordsMatter

A great read about Iran's precision strike capability: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...020a0c-30c7-11ea-9313-6cba89b1b9fb_story.html

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## Raghfarm007



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## Sina-1

WordsMatter said:


> A great read about Iran's precision strike capability: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...020a0c-30c7-11ea-9313-6cba89b1b9fb_story.html


Quotes:
The result is a line of short- and medium-range missiles that can deliver warheads with an accuracy range in the tens of meters, a Defense Department intelligence official said. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive assessments of Iran’s military capability.

“We have observed consistent improvements in Iranian ballistic missile accuracy,” the official said. Among the more striking and potentially worrisome developments is technology on Iran’s 500-mile Qiam missile that allows controllers to fine-tune its trajectory during flight. Even the Fateh-110, a short-range model provided to Hezbollah and other militant groups, has been refitted with electro-optical and radio-guidance systems so that it can zero in on highly specific targets, the official said.

Gen. Joseph Votel, the former U.S. Centcom commander who retired from the Army in March, said the gains in Iran’s missile capability have been surprisingly rapid.


Most disturbing, Votel said, is the “maturation of these systems and how quickly [the Iranians] are learning.”

“When you look at our long learning curve here, theirs is much sharper,” he said. “They’re taking advantage of what we have learned.”

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## WordsMatter

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215328715673964544

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215027066321752066

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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> I have my doubts wether they were carrying warheads. Specially the Qiams which can carry 600+kg warheads.
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the missiles or many of them don’t carry warheads.
> 
> for example in your post the picture of the tent bunker, a 500kg warhead would demolish all 3 tents. But a missile carrying no warhead is likely to do that damage.
> 
> I mean 500kg is over 1000lbs! Go look at air strikes of fighter jets dropping 1000lbs pound PGM.
> 
> F-16 drops 500lb bomb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s a 225kg PGM! Now imagine a 500kg missile plus amplified effect of Mach 4-8 impact.
> 
> That must world strongest tent material!
> 
> Something is fishy


https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/10...ی-بزرگترین-آمبولانس-هوایی-ارتش-آمریکا-از-عراق
https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/10...-الاسد-آغاز-یک-عملیات-بزرگ-بود-آمریکا-در-صورت
read it maybe change your mind

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1029600/حیرت-کارشناس-نظامی-آمریکایی-از-دقت-موشک-های-ایران

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## yavar



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## Raghfarm007

WordsMatter said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215328715673964544
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215027066321752066



Hay words matter.... have you stopped being a total d!ck??
Your Iran trip seems to have awakened a part of your brain.

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## Aramagedon




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## Sina-1

Really good read

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1215298909830033408.html


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## Draco.IMF

So I read that Iran, after the missile wave, "hacked" the communication system of the US bases, theyr MQ-9 drones (~8 in the air allegedly) stopped working, theyr air defence was shut down, theyr were shocked

Maybe we talk/discuss about Irans ECM capabilities?

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## Aramagedon

Draco.IMF said:


> So I read that Iran, after the missile wave, "hacked" the communication system of the US bases, theyr MQ-9 drones (~8 in the air allegedly) stopped working, theyr air defence was shut down, theyr were shocked
> 
> Maybe we talk/discuss about Irans ECM capabilities?


I have heard about much advanced Iran anti-access area denial weapons which dwarfs the US.

Iran used these weapons back in 2011 when hacked RQ-170 and landed it without any damage


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## Korosh kabir

There is been alot of activity from American Shinooks in Cyprus sky,we have never seen any of them here before ,the footage below belongs to January 8th flying in 4 towards British base in Cyprus ,as I write this article I have spotted them in sky again at night moving toward north west propably their base in Europe ,it is obvious American trying hard to hide their casualties.


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## Messerschmitt




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## WordsMatter

Aramagedon said:


> I have heard about much advanced Iran anti-access area denial weapons which dwarfs the US.
> 
> Iran used these weapons back in 2011 when hacked RQ-170 and landed it without any damage



"dwarfs the US" oh come on... look at US defense budget vs. IRI's. It's one thing to say IRI has precision strike capability but let's not get carried away.

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## TheImmortal

WordsMatter said:


> "dwarfs the US" oh come on... look at US defense budget vs. IRI's. It's one thing to say IRI has precision strike capability but let's not get carried away.



He didn’t say that Iran has a more toys or better budget then US.

China and Iran have invested heavily in anti access area denial weapons (defensive posturing). US simply has not because US is an offensive posturing power.

US has largely moved away from BM development and heavy CM development after the nuclear treaties with Russia banning missiles of certain ranges. US prefers to invest heavily in tomahawk/stealth cruise missile for offensive saturation as well as AirPower in forms of bombers, drones, and 5th gen fighter jets.

You are talking about two different philosophies.

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## Aramagedon

WordsMatter said:


> "dwarfs the US" oh come on... look at US defense budget vs. IRI's. It's one thing to say IRI has precision strike capability but let's not get carried away.


Dude Iran is advanced in some military fields that we don't know much.


*** Details of electronic attack on American drones*

"The operation we have not named so far was after the missile operation, and with the special equipment we had already prepared, we launched an important electronic warfare approximately 15 minutes after the operation, and all the aircraft without We pulled out of a flight over the Ein Al-Assad area for a moment, leaving the Americans in control and destroying their communication links and video links that terrified the Americans.

"When the missile strikes, the most important need for Americans was to understand how much damage was being observed at the moment by the 8 MQ-9 UAVs that were flying over the area," he said. It was transmitted and when the planes went out of control, the shock they had suffered was unaffected by missile operations.

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1029458/ضربه-موشکی-به-عین-الاسد-آغاز-یک-عملیات-بزرگ-بود-آمریکا-در-صورت

https://www.ibtimes.com/iranian-gen...t-weapons-can-destroy-american-forces-2804859

https://www.mei.edu/publications/ch...ss-area-denial-weapons-capability-development

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## Messerschmitt

^ Is he possibly referring to an Iranian medium-range (2000 km) ASBM?

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## Sina-1

Messerschmitt said:


> ^ Is he possibly referring to an Iranian medium-range (2000 km) ASBM?


Sejil.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

Sina-1 said:


> Quotes:
> The result is a line of short- and medium-range missiles that can deliver warheads with an accuracy range in the tens of meters, a Defense Department intelligence official said. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive assessments of Iran’s military capability.
> 
> “We have observed consistent improvements in Iranian ballistic missile accuracy,” the official said. Among the more striking and potentially worrisome developments is technology on Iran’s 500-mile Qiam missile that allows controllers to fine-tune its trajectory during flight. Even the Fateh-110, a short-range model provided to Hezbollah and other militant groups, has been refitted with electro-optical and radio-guidance systems so that it can zero in on highly specific targets, the official said.
> 
> *Gen. Joseph Votel, the former U.S. Centcom commander who retired from the Army in March, said the gains in Iran’s missile capability have been surprisingly rapid.*
> 
> 
> *Most disturbing, Votel said, is the “maturation of these systems and how quickly [the Iranians] are learning.”*
> 
> *“When you look at our long learning curve here, theirs is much sharper,” he said. “They’re taking advantage of what we have learned.”*




This proves investments in missile development *vs* buying expensive fighter jets were better suited, as missiles in Iran's arsenal are proving to their adversaries that they can't expect an easy military confrontation with Iran. Iran's adversaries are also worried about the *unknowns *in Iran's military capabilities.

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## Sina-1

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> This proves investments in missile development *vs* buying expensive fighter jets were better suited, as missiles in Iran's arsenal are proving to their adversaries that they can't expect an easy military confrontation with Iran. Iran's adversaries are also worried about the *unknowns *in Iran's military capabilities.



exactly! Real capability is having knowledge to produce and improve your own weapons. At some point you will reach a snow ball effect and you become a real player instead of a bystander or even worse; a slave.

any country only buying foreign military equipment is insane and delusional.

Iran’s journey started with missiles and then unmanned systems and now AD & EW. All currently state of the art.
Next 10-15 year Iran will have a state of the art navy.
15-20 years will be top of the line Air Force and Space industry.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

The article is here - https://www.newsweek.com/iran-revolutionary-guard-missile-us-iraq-1480942. So if the 270 death toll was initially reported, it must've been pulled afterwards. The IRGC also claimed at least 80 casualties.

Nevertheless, there seems to be a smokescreen in this attack. So unless there is a whistle blower that sheds some light on this attack, we may never know the truth about both human and material toll of those missiles.

One thing we can read though from Western media and journal reports is that the IRGC's response has caught many analysts by surprise: Nobody expected a missile response directly from Iran. They all expected a response from Iran-backed groups or some form of an attack in soft targets. 



Raghfarm007 said:


>

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## Ich

Who cares about how many US died. Important is how good the iranian weapons worked. And as far as i can judge: They worked as said.

Edit: 

I know that not all US are bad and so on. But as a soldier....I also said this if a german soldier died in Afghanistan. Germany has nothing to "search" there and every soldier can say no....so.....

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> The picture I am referring to clearly shows they are TENTS not reinforced concrete bunkers!
> 
> Must be a strong tent that only one gets wiped out! Iran should start building its bases out of that material!



No they are not concrete bunkers they are soft shelters mainly meant to protect against sand and at best shrapnel from mortars and light rockets that fall within the vicinity..... however, no matter how soft or hard the shelters are a missiles with a single ~500kg conventional payload isn't going to have a vast destruction radius.... And clearly for sending the type of message Iran wanted to send cluster munitions weren't the way to go because Iran first and foremost wanted to show and prove the accuracy of it's missiles to this U.S. administration and the craters these missiles left behind will likely show what bunkers Iran will and wont be able to penetrate....

Again this particular operation was mainly meant to demolish any delusions some in this U.S. administration have had about Iran's capabilities who are the same fools that have made claims like Iranian weapons are photoshopped and or mockups..... 
So accurately hitting targets at a US base from ~500km out and hitting a base so fortified that Trump himself flew into last year using 100% domestically produced missiles was the message Iran wanted to send and did so successfully and very clearly proved that if you attack Iranian soil you wouldn't be waiting around for some asymmetric response and that Iran will retaliate directly and with deadly accuracy

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## VEVAK

If the video below is authentic it means they even tried to intercept.... 

https://www.aparat.com/v/FlZd5

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> If the video below is authentic it means they even tried to intercept....
> 
> https://www.aparat.com/v/FlZd5




they are not authentic i have seen those in past

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> they are not authentic i have seen those in past



More propaganda by @VEVAK 

Last time Al-Asad had Patriot batteries was probably 2016.


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## VEVAK

Sina-1 said:


> exactly! Real capability is having knowledge to produce and improve your own weapons. At some point you will reach a snow ball effect and you become a real player instead of a bystander or even worse; a slave.
> 
> any country only buying foreign military equipment is insane and delusional.
> 
> Iran’s journey started with missiles and then unmanned systems and now AD & EW. All currently state of the art.
> Next 10-15 year Iran will have a state of the art navy.
> 15-20 years will be top of the line Air Force and Space industry.



When real war starts the ONLY weapons that matter are the weapons you can produce, arm and maintain yourself!!!!

I believe all the people who enjoy ridiculing's Iran's 50 years old fighter fleet got their answer with our recent strikes and the value of producing your own!
If Iran had chosen to import Russian fighters over the past 2 decades instead of using that money to invest in our own missiles program, there is no way in hell Iran would have even risked using them to strike at a U.S. base and even if we did risk using them the chance of success against both U.S. IADS systems and Air Power would have been minimal and in the best of conditions multiple multi million dollar fighters would have been lost and that's not including all the pressure the Russians could have place on our government not to use their Aircrafts in retaliation...… So all in all I believe Iranian tactical BM have more than proven their worth and importance over and over again and it's time Iran doubles down on their R&D and mass production and deployment and vastly increases our stock.



TheImmortal said:


> More propaganda by @VEVAK
> 
> Last time Al-Asad had Patriot batteries was probably 2016.



I said if it was authentic!!!!

So you clearly wanna remain under the delusion that when Trump flew in there last year there were no Air Defense systems there defending the base!!! Or when Pence visited not to long ago! LOL!

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> When real war starts the ONLY weapons that matter are the weapons you can produce, arm and maintain yourself!!!!
> 
> I believe all the people who enjoy ridiculing's Iran's 50 years old fighter fleet got their answer with our recent strikes and the value of producing your own!
> If Iran had chosen to import Russian fighters over the past 2 decades instead of using that money to invest in our own missiles program, there is no way in hell Iran would have even risked using them to strike at a U.S. base and even if we did risk using them the chance of success against both U.S. IADS systems and Air Power would have been minimal and in the best of conditions multiple multi million dollar fighters would have been lost and that's not including all the pressure the Russians could have place on our government not to use their Aircrafts in retaliation...… So all in all I believe Iranian tactical BM have more than proven their worth and importance over and over again and it's time Iran doubles down on their R&D and mass production and deployment and vastly increases our stock.
> 
> 
> 
> I said if it was authentic!!!!
> 
> So you clearly wanna remain under the delusion that when Trump flew in there last year there were no Air Defense systems there defending the base!!! Or when Pence visited not to long ago! LOL!



@VEVAK brother i get your point i just wanted to let you know that those are not the same attack, @TheImmortal these mistake happens a lot, i lost count how many times it happened to me

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## sha ah

What I'm wondering is WHY they did not prevent all passenger planes from flying over Iran for at least 24-48 hrs after the missiles strikes. In my opinion whomever was in charge of the operation should be demoted. 








skyshadow said:


> @VEVAK brother i get your point i just wanted to let you know that those are not the same attack, @TheImmortal these mistake happens a lot, i lost count how many times it happened to me

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## OldTwilight

sha ah said:


> What I'm wondering is WHY they did not prevent all passenger planes from flying over Iran for at least 24-48 hrs after the missiles strikes. In my opinion whomever was in charge of the operation should be demoted.



They will promote to higher position ... IRI always courage this kind of treason instead of punishing them ...


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## yavar

US troops knew Al-Asad air base would be attacked and sheltered in bunkers, exclusive tour reveals
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/middleeast/iran-strike-al-asad-air-base-exclusive-intl/index.html

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## Sineva

OldTwilight said:


> They will promote to higher position ... IRI always courage this kind of treason instead of punishing them ...


Well at least in that case they wont be alone,both the russians and americans rewarded the personnel involved in the shoot downs of flight 007 and flight 655 with bonuses and medals respectively.



yavar said:


> US troops knew Al-Asad air base would be attacked and sheltered in bunkers, exclusive tour reveals
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/middleeast/iran-strike-al-asad-air-base-exclusive-intl/index.html







One of the us shelters,a rather obvious crack in the wall and roof,plus some debris on the floor gives pretty clear evidence of the power of the blasts

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## Philosopher

Watching the vids of Iran's missle hitting. That is effin terrifying! Dude, Imagine if Iran was firing 100's of these!

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## TheImmortal

Mr Robot said:


> Watching the vids of Iran's missle hitting. That is effin terrifying! Dude, Imagine if Iran was firing 100's of these!



Too many people overestimate how many missiles Iran produces.

Also 100’s of missiles would need 100’s of TELs. They don’t just magically leave the ground by themselves.

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## sha ah

This site has the best quality images of the Ayn Al Assad base after the missile strike.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-missile-strikes-on-al-assad-air-base-in-iraq



TheImmortal said:


> Too many people overestimate how many missiles Iran produces.
> 
> Also 100’s of missiles would need 100’s of TELs. They don’t just magically leave the ground by themselves.

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## TheImmortal

sha ah said:


> This site has the best quality images of the Ayn Al Assad base after the missile strike.
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-missile-strikes-on-al-assad-air-base-in-iraq



6 F-4s launching stand off PGM could have done more damage then this.


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## OldTwilight

TheImmortal said:


> 6 F-4s launching stand off PGM could have done more damage then this.



even 60 F4 couldn't reach the target in first place ...

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## Sina-1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216163191022968833

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## TheImmortal

Sina-1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216163191022968833



Curious to hear what his “projects” were? Longer range missiles? Multi warhead missiles? Missiles that don’t require TELs?



OldTwilight said:


> even 60 F4 couldn't reach the target in first place ...



They could. You just overestimate how well air defenses work and underestimate the range a stand off munition has.

Israel drops payloads off the coast of Lebanon and they hit as far as Aleppo.

Iran could go to the tip of “the cat” in Iran dive low and fly a little bit into Iraqi Kurdistan and attack Erbil base easily and pulverize it. Iraqi Kurdistan has no Patriot systems from what I am aware of.

At the same time you would have F-14’s patrolling the border as the F-4s return back. If somehow US F-16 is on the F-4s tail then the F-14s climb and release their Fakkours likely resulting in a kill Or force the F-16s to retreat.

My point is the same amount of damage can be done by air force planes. Unlike missiles, satellites cannot pick up emissions from a plane taking off (that’s what long range radar is for).

Missiles are easy to locate, preparations, etc. in peace time you can get some shots off because the enemy doesn’t know if you are just moving missiles around/taking defensive posturing/or a 10 other reasons. But in war you can be assured IF intelligence/sats pick up missiles on TEL then they are getting attacked no questions asked.


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## OldTwilight

TheImmortal said:


> Curious to hear what his “projects” were? Longer range missiles? Multi warhead missiles? Missiles that don’t require TELs?
> 
> Missiles are easy to locate, preparations, etc. in peace time you can get some shots off because the enemy doesn’t know if you are just moving missiles around/taking defensive posturing/or a 10 other reasons. But in war you can be assured IF intelligence/sats pick up missiles on TEL then they are getting attacked no questions asked.



plan need airbases as well , so destroying their air base or monitoring airbases are a lot easier than tracking missiles ...

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## TheImmortal

OldTwilight said:


> plan need airbases as well , so destroying their air base or monitoring airbases are a lot easier than tracking missiles ...



Wrong. Syrian air bases were attacked by US cruise missiles and they were flying planes off of it 8-10 hours later!

It is incredibly hard to take down a military air base. Runways can be repaired in hours and to disable a runway you need major firepower.

Missiles are relatively easy to track because they have to be stored in secure locations with proper precautions in place to prevent accidental explosions as well as destruction from enemy forces.


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## OldTwilight

TheImmortal said:


> Wrong. Syrian air bases were attacked by US cruise missiles and they were flying planes off of it 8-10 hours later!
> 
> It is incredibly hard to take down a military air base. Runways can be repaired in hours and to disable a runway you need major firepower.
> 
> Missiles are relatively easy to track because they have to be stored in secure locations with proper precautions in place to prevent accidental explosions as well as destruction from enemy forces.



no sir , if they attack the fighter jet depot , fuel storage tank , command control and etcs... the base become utterly uselss ...

and If I was a desicion maker , I wouldn't start an air raid in hostile territory with 50 years old fighters like Iranians F4s

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## sha ah

I have a few questions, for anyone that knows the answers.

So Iran launched 16 missiles all together. 4 malfunctioned, 1 missed its target and landed in field in Irbil, 11 apparently hit the Al Assad site or close by. Out of those 11, 5-6 hit specific buildings, including a command center, wheres 2 missiles seem to have hit pavement and a runway.

So that would be 8 that are accounted for out of the 11. So what happened to the other 3 which supposedly hit the Ayn Al Assad base ?

So honestly that's not very impressive and not nearly as impressive as the Aramco operation recently in Saudi Arabia. I guess launching a volley of missiles is hit or miss, sometimes a matter of luck, especially considering how sophisticated and prone to failure missile technology is. Look at so many recent space launches in the US that have failed one way or another.

Realistically though it doesn't seem as if Iran was trying to inflict mass casualties onto US forces, who for the most part seem to have had enough time to scramble into bomb shelters. Iran even informed the Iraqi PM before the strike and there are even rumors of Iran coordinating the strike with the US, however I'm skeptical about that. Anyways, If causing mass casualties was actually the aim then Iran could have easily used cruise missiles at bases closer to the border and/or an initial volley of cruise missiles at radar stations. Another option could have been for Iran to use missiles with much larger warheads.

So here's a question, how many launchers does Iran have all together ? Does anyone know ? How many missiles can Iran launch at one time and how long would it take on average until the next volley ?

Were the missiles used Fateh or Qiam type ? I'm hearing contradictory information online.

The damage diameter for these missiles seems to be approx 30 meters.

The Fateh has a payload of 500 kg while the Qiam 750 kg ? Let's say Fateh's were used, the maximum range of Fateh-110 is supposed to be 300 km, whereas Fateh-313(Zolfaqar) is 500 km-700 km depending on the source.

So since the missiles traveled approx 400 km, that means that there's a good chance smaller payloads were used correct ?. Do missiles have various payloads depending on the range the missile is going to travel or is it set in stone ?

I mean if you're going to fire a Fateh-110 at only 100 km instead of 400 km, wouldn't it make sense for it to have a heavier payload ? Having two separate payloads would seem to make logical sense no ?

I'm just wondering how much payload causes that 30 meters diameter we see in the picture?

Assuming 500 kg was used, then what would be the damage diameter for the Khoramshahr missile using a 1600-1800 kg payload?

How much larger would the diameter increase with an increase in payload ? Does anyone know how the math works ?

The Khoramshahr is supposed to have a range of 2000 km - 2500 km, but assuming the target was only 1000 km away, would they then use a warhead with a larger payload ?


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## Raghfarm007

4 failed missiles is bullcrap that the yanks invente and provided no evidence for...... they also said that they will respond very fast and very hard to the attacks.... and did NOTHING.... and they said that the missiles did little damage, but now we see HUGE damage done.

If anyone believes the US version of the story, then congratulations for passing the retard test with flying cloures.

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## GWXP

sha ah said:


> I have a few questions, for anyone that knows the answers.
> 
> So Iran launched 16 missiles all together. 4 malfunctioned, 1 missed its target and landed in field in Irbil, 11 apparently hit the Al Assad site or close by. Out of those 11, 5-6 hit specific buildings, including a command center, wheres 2 missiles seem to have hit pavement and a runway.
> 
> So that would be 8 that are accounted for out of the 11. So what happened to the other 3 which supposedly hit the Ayn Al Assad base ?
> 
> So honestly that's not very impressive and not nearly as impressive as the Aramco operation recently in Saudi Arabia. I guess launching a volley of missiles is hit or miss, sometimes a matter of luck, especially considering how sophisticated and prone to failure missile technology is. Look at so many recent space launches in the US that have failed one way or another.
> 
> Realistically though it doesn't seem as if Iran was trying to inflict mass casualties onto US forces, who for the most part seem to have had enough time to scramble into bomb shelters. Iran even informed the Iraqi PM before the strike and there are even rumors of Iran coordinating the strike with the US, however I'm skeptical about that. Anyways, If causing mass casualties was actually the aim then Iran could have easily used cruise missiles at bases closer to the border and/or an initial volley of cruise missiles at radar stations. Another option could have been for Iran to use missiles with much larger warheads.
> 
> So here's a question, how many launchers does Iran have all together ? Does anyone know ? How many missiles can Iran launch at one time and how long would it take on average until the next volley ?
> 
> Were the missiles used Fateh or Qiam type ? I'm hearing contradictory information online.
> 
> The damage diameter for these missiles seems to be approx 30 meters.
> 
> The Fateh has a payload of 500 kg while the Qiam 750 kg ? Let's say Fateh's were used, the maximum range of Fateh-110 is supposed to be 300 km, whereas Fateh-313(Zolfaqar) is 500 km-700 km depending on the source.
> 
> So since the missiles traveled approx 400 km, that means that there's a good chance smaller payloads were used correct ?. Do missiles have various payloads depending on the range the missile is going to travel or is it set in stone ?
> 
> I mean if you're going to fire a Fateh-110 at only 100 km instead of 400 km, wouldn't it make sense for it to have a heavier payload ? Having two separate payloads would seem to make logical sense no ?
> 
> I'm just wondering how much payload causes that 30 meters diameter we see in the picture?
> 
> Assuming 500 kg was used, then what would be the damage diameter for the Khoramshahr missile using a 1600-1800 kg payload?
> 
> How much larger would the diameter increase with an increase in payload ? Does anyone know how the math works ?
> 
> The Khoramshahr is supposed to have a range of 2000 km - 2500 km, but assuming the target was only 1000 km away, would they then use a warhead with a larger payload ?
> 
> View attachment 599434


It is usually one launcher per 8-10 missiles. But Chinese short range missile DF-15 (similar to Fateh-313) has one launcher per 3 missiles.

It is in Iranian interest to have as many launchers as possible and launch large numbers of missiles simultaneously in order to overwhelm enemy air defenses.

You should note that it will take couple of weeks before US will destroy Iranian air defenses and establish air superiority and then start hunting Iranian launchers. So Iran needs to launch all of its missiles in a short period of time in order to overwhelm enemy defenses and do as much damage as possible.

Now I read recently in Washington post and Fox News referring to Pentagon estimate that Iran has more than 2000 ballistic missiles.

So, if Iran has 2000 ballistic missiles of various types and ranges, there might be 200-400 launchers. So Iran can exhaust its arsenal within 2-5 days of massive fire----hardly US will be able to establish air superiority withing this period of time.

Note that most enemy targets are located withing 320-400 km of Iranian border: oil facilities, desalination plants, enemy bases in Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE---so the most widely produced Iranian missile should be Fateh-313.

What lies 1000km away from Iran---are enemy air bases that will house US tactical air force ---more accurate Khorramshahr missiles and less accurate Shahab-3 with cluster munition warheads are prepared for these targets.

Now, having 2000 missiles, we can assume that 1000 missiles will either be intercepted or will malfunction and only remaining 1000 missiles will hit their targets, giving 50% effectiveness.

At first, Iran can launch older less accurate missiles like Shahab-1,2 as well as artillery rockets like Zelzal---in order to exhaust enemy's stockpile of Patriot missiles and after enemy's stockpile is exhausted Iran can launch more accurate Fateh-313, Desfoul and Khorramshahr missiles in order to hit the targets---or there can be a mixed launch of less accurate and more advanced missiles.

Now, in its arsenal Iran has many older missiles like Shahab-1, Shahab-2 which have a CEP of 500-700meters----These missiles can be armed with *cluster munitions to compensate for there lack of accuracy* and be launched with cluster munitions against *very large targets*--- like 4 major oil stabilization plants in Saudi Arabia: Abqaiq, Qurais, Ras Tanura, Al-Jubayl as well as refineries and 2 major ports (like Ras Tanura oil terminal)---*thus doing enormous damage even with less accurate missiles.*

More accurate missiles can target aircrafts under open air with cluster munitions or fuel tanks, command posts, personnel barracks.

In addition to ballistic missiles, Iran has several hundreds of cruise missiles. At first Iran can launch large numbers of decoys like Karrar UAV in order to exhaust enemy's stockpile of air defenses missiles--and than launch more accurate and effective Soumar missiles.

So overall, Iran can hit *more than a thousand targets *with precise cruise and ballistic missiles with cluster munition warheads.

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## skyshadow

*
hitting the exact tent from 500 km with pinpoint accuracy



An images that obtained by "Intellitimes" Blog, confirm that the iranian IRGC Missiles Attack on US forces at "Al Asad Air Base" in Iraq, was targating Special tents that eas used for hiding ֳִMQ-9 Reaper drones that were assigned for QassemSoleimani "Mission to Kill" Operation.





*

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Too many people overestimate how many missiles Iran produces.
> 
> Also 100’s of missiles would need 100’s of TELs. They don’t just magically leave the ground by themselves.



I know for an absolute fact that it's people like you that routinely under estimate Iran's stockpile!






FYI that's mostly the Qiam stockpile, Iranian tactical BM's like the Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar neither need to be fuel nor require expensive TEL's....


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> I know for an absolute fact that it's people like you that routinely under estimate Iran's stockpile!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI that's mostly the Qiam stockpile, Iranian tactical BM's like the Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar neither need to be fuel nor require expensive TEL's....



I would expect nothing more from a government shill. If you think Iran has more than 5,000-7,500 long range missiles you are out of your mind. US intelligence is 2,000 and I’m going to be liberal and say that it’s 3x that number so 6,000 or so.

Take 6,000 x it by 700kg warhead. And see what you get. Russia/US/Syria dropped that many bombs in Syria in Just one YEAR.

So now not even 6,000 missiles will be enough fire power to target US military assets considering it takes about 200-300 missiles to severely destroy an airbase alone assuming 30-40% fail for whatever reason.

So Iran will blow through its entire missile stockpile in the first year of war assuming a conservative # of 10-20% of missile stockpile get destroyed by enemy bombardment on Iran followed by another 30-40% fail to hit their target (intercepted, tech failure, miss target, etc).


So let’s run the numbers again assuming a HIGHLY optimistic scenario of Iran haven’t a stockpile of 7,500 missiles and using the numbers above of up to 40-60% never being fired or reaching target or hitting target that means you should reduce the number of missiles by 3,250 missiles.

Meaning Iran will have an arsenal of 3,250 missiles that score direct hits on their target. And if Iran doesn’t have an arsenal of 7,500 missiles and has something like 3,000 then only 1,500 missiles will score direct hits.

That is simply not enough in all out war. This is why Iran needs an air force as well.

Time will prove I am right.


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## Philosopher

Immortal does raise a good point. Even if we assume 10,000 700-2000KM ranged ballistic missiles, that will not be enough for a long conflict. Of course if Iran can truly manfucture these missile in crazy numbers that will help, but Iran simply cannot JUST rely on ballistic missiles. I suppose that's why Iran is investing in swarm stealthy uavs as well, but could they be very effective in a war scanrio when they would be jammed?

airforce is a must in the long term. What I also want to see Iran make is 1000's of long range cannons built in Iran and hidden/ready to fire.

Have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Babylon


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> I would expect nothing more from a government shill. If you think Iran has more than 5,000-7,500 long range missiles you are out of your mind. US intelligence is 2,000 and I’m going to be liberal and say that it’s 3x that number so 6,000 or so.
> 
> Take 6,000 x it by 700kg warhead. And see what you get. Russia/US/Syria dropped that many bombs in Syria in Just one YEAR.
> 
> So now not even 6,000 missiles will be enough fire power to target US military assets considering it takes about 200-300 missiles to severely destroy an airbase alone assuming 30-40% fail for whatever reason.
> 
> So Iran will blow through its entire missile stockpile in the first year of war assuming a conservative # of 10-20% of missile stockpile get destroyed by enemy bombardment on Iran followed by another 30-40% fail to hit their target (intercepted, tech failure, miss target, etc).
> 
> 
> So let’s run the numbers again assuming a HIGHLY optimistic scenario of Iran haven’t a stockpile of 7,500 missiles and using the numbers above of up to 40-60% never being fired or reaching target or hitting target that means you should reduce the number of missiles by 3,250 missiles.
> 
> Meaning Iran will have an arsenal of 3,250 missiles that score direct hits on their target. And if Iran doesn’t have an arsenal of 7,500 missiles and has something like 3,000 then only 1,500 missiles will score direct hits.
> 
> That is simply not enough in all out war. This is why Iran needs an air force as well.
> 
> Time will prove I am right.



1st off what do you mean by long range missiles?? 

FYI By 2005 Israeli estimates were that Iran had between 400-500 Missiles capable of reaching Israel. So I don't know where you come up with that 2000 figure but it more or less seems like a delusional figure to me....

FYI U.S. has well over 50 military installations that are within ~600km of Iranian soil so why do you assume that Iran's stock of long rage missiles will be the main factor?? also why do you assume that BM are Iran's ONLY means of retaliation? 

As for the value of an Air Force vs missiles I believe Iran's recent strikes using Tactical BM have already answered that!!! 

what exactly do you think Iran's response would have been if instead of a Missile Program we had instead purchased a fleet of 100 Su-30 + 50 MiG-29 + 50 MiG-35 + 50 Su-35's + 50 Su-34 lets say instead of a missile program we had built up a fleet like that. Now tell me what exactly do you think Iran could or would have been able to achieve against the U.S.?????

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## Raghfarm007

Which country in the world has enough military sites, that 10,000 missiles isnt enough to destroy them all?

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## VEVAK

Raghfarm007 said:


> Which country in the world has enough military sites, that 10,000 missiles isnt enough to destroy them all?



U.S. does have enough assets globally that 10,000 conventional missiles wouldn't be enough however, Ballistic Missiles are NOT Iran's only means of retaliation and aside from Iranian cruise missiles, Iran has a rather vast fleet of UAV's and UCAV's that will be used in an all out war.

It's funny how quickly people forget what a handful of cruise missiles and UAV's armed with light payloads did to the Saudi Oil production

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## TheImmortal

Raghfarm007 said:


> Which country in the world has enough military sites, that 10,000 missiles isnt enough to destroy them all?



Lay off the drugs, Iran doesn’t have 10,000 BMs.


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## GWXP

Iran might have 3000 ballistic missiles and many thousands of Zelzal artillery rockets...Zelzal rockets will be launched to exhaust US arsenal of Patriot air defense missiles and then attack by more precise missiles will follow.

But even with 30% success rate Iran can hit 1000 targets and this will inflict substantial damage and casualties if personnel barracks are targeted together with oil infrastructure.

Many Iranian missiles are older versions and are not precise..but Iran can compensate for lack of accuracy by using cluster munition warhead.

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## Myself

TheImmortal said:


> Lay off the drugs, Iran doesn’t have 10,000 BMs.


10,000 BMs ! Well, if 5 million out of the total 10-13 million residents of the capital Tehran attended Soleimani’s funeral last week, then Iran has 10,000 BMs too! Such crappy rumors are spread by bunch of crooks running IRGC.
Again, below officially counts maximum 80,000 of population. Using the same analogy, one can estimate how many BMs Iran has in its arsenal.


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## VEVAK

Myself said:


> If 5 million out of the total 10-13 million residents of the capital Tehran attended Soleimani’s funeral last week, then Iran has 10,000 BM too! Such a crappy claim by bunch of crooks.



5 Million in Tehran alone! So cry all you want but that's the real Iran! 
Fact is if you were in Iran or if you even had family in Iran that you had spoken to about it as long as they were being truthful then you wouldn't be doubting it!!!

From Shariatii & Vali asr all the way passed Azadi sq completely filled! Iranian TV announced figure of 6 million people but more realistic figure were about 5 million!!!

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Iranian TV announced figure of 6 million people but more realistic figure were about 5 million!!!



Oh you mean the same Iranian TV that said Iran didn’t shoot down their own plane? You were the one gobbling up whatever the government said and denied in the beginning that the plane was shot down by IRGC!

So 50% of the Tehran population came out? LOL. I have sources on the ground too. No where close to 5 MILLION!






This is what 400,000-500,000 looks like. 

You are losing credibility by the day for being a government shill eating propaganda and spreading on it this forum.


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Oh you mean the same Iranian TV that said Iran didn’t shoot down their own plane? You were the one gobbling up whatever the government said and denied in the beginning that the plane was shot down by IRGC!
> 
> So 50% of the Tehran population came out? LOL. I have sources on the ground too. No where close to 5 MILLION!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what 400,000-500,000 looks like.
> 
> You are losing credibility by the day for being a government shill eating propaganda and spreading on it this forum.



LOL!!!! Really??? Your comparing that with 











one is Azaqi sq the other Enghlab sq and the streets of Tehran were packed all the way up to shariati valiasz……

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> LOL!!!! Really??? Your comparing that with
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> one is Azaqi sq the other Enghlab sq and the streets of Tehran were packed all the way up to shariati valiasz……



Again look at the width of my picture and how far back it extends.

You’re eyes are playing an optical allusion because the amount of people crammed into a tight space. Azadi is very small and not enough room along with Enghlab.

Like I said 1 million people more or less maybe 1.5

But no where close to 50% of the cities population.


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Again look at the width of my picture and how far back it extends.
> 
> You’re eyes are playing an optical allusion because the amount of people crammed into a tight space. Azadi is very small and not enough room along with Enghlab.
> 
> Like I said 1 million people more or less maybe 1.5
> 
> But no where close to 50% of the cities population.



Unlike you I've been to both places! You don't even know the streets of Tehran so.....

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## NaCon

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216163191022968833
This interview should put to bed the question if US soldiers were killed 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216072284911239168

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Unlike you I've been to both places! You don't even know the streets of Tehran so.....



It’s funny the video you use for proof the title literally starts with “hundreds of thousands” NOT “millions”

LOL I was born in Iran, but I don’t know the streets? It’s funny you talk like a government fanboy more than a serious intellectual individual.

If we talk about who knows the streets, business’, connections with government officials. The results could be surprising. Not to mention having those that served in the imposed war.

But unlike you I actually give a damn about the country, I do not sit and parrot Republic propaganda.

The Republic is fractionalized and soon they will bicker (already happened) then they will argue over certain decisions and eventually some will break apart from each other and seek to undermine one another.

Trump will get re elected and Iran has to suffer another 4.5 years of sanctions. Only a naive fool would believe the people will accept 4.5 years of this! We haven’t even reached the 2 year anniversary since Trump left the deal!

Solemani’s death isn’t going to keep the people happy with how their government is managing things. They mourned a hero’s passing, two different things.


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## GWXP

TheImmortal said:


> Trump will get re elected and Iran has to suffer another 4.5 years of sanctions. Only a naive fool would believe the people will accept 4.5 years of this! We haven’t even reached the 2 year anniversary since Trump left the deal!


Trump needs to pivot to Asia and Eastern Europe-----they can't afford another 4,5 years in the Middle East---they don't need another quagmire in times when China and Russia keep rising.

If Trump is reelected---and no chance of return to JPCOA----Iran will increase number of centrifuges, reactivate Arak plutonium reactor and install large number of IR-6 centrifuges and expel IAEA inspectors-----and this will mean a rush to the bomb----Trump will a choice---return to the old deal, which effectively neutralized Iranian nuclear bomb for minimum next 25 years--- or go to unnecessary war to stop Iranian nuclear program.

Regarding sanctions---they have already done the maximum of the damage they could potentially do.....Iranian economy declined in 2018 and 2019 and stabilizes in 2020 with IMF predicting 0,2% growth for 2020.....So sanctions can not do more damage anymore----they have already done the maximum damage they could do. (in 2018-2020)

Trump's and Pompeo's policy of maximalist approach to Iran will not bring to change in policy of Iran in the ME---it will just further increase tensions in the ME as Iran becomes more aggressive (if Trump is reelected) and force Iran to follow North Korean path toward bomb.

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## Myself

As I said in another post, this was not the first time this regime used “airplane crash” to get through and fulfill its dirty agendas. Also, the economic problem with the country is not Trump, neither the sanctions. The estate currency has lost its value continuously since this corrupt regime came to power more than 4 decades ago, even when no ‘effective’ sanctions were in place for the first three decades of their ruling. Few days ago the ratio of the market Rial-now to Rial-then reached again to 145,000/75~1,900 times! It is very ironic that Rial experienced its major loss in value before the effective sanctions took place during Mr. Saboorjian’s presidency: 12,000/75 ~ 160 vs. 135,000/12000~ 11.2


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## Sina-1

The severity of the missile impact!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216515582859849728
https://nyheder.tv2.dk/udland/2020-01-10-dansk-soldat-efter-iransk-angreb-jeg-foelte-mig-magtesloes

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## sha ah

From the start though they sanctioned Iran and imposed war on Iran through Saddam. Look at Turkey, a NATO ally, an obedient vassal state for the last 40 years, until recently with erdogan and the coup, but their currency has lost most of its value in the last few years as well. 10 years ago 1 USD = 1.2 Lira Now 1 USD = 5.86 Lira and before that they had to take off 3 zeroes because of constant devaluation, inflation. In any case, at this point in time, I would say 100,000 Rial to 1 USD would be ideal. If a Democratic president gets elected, the US will most likely rejoin the nuclear deal. Trumps pressure campaign really hasn't worked. Despite everyday Iran's economy is growing in 2020/2021. Unfortunately Trump is just a Zionist zombie and when it comes to Iran, his demands are completely unrealistic. Iran's best choice right now from a geopolitical standpoint is to give it's proxies in Iraq advanced weapons and to give the Taliban a limited amount of weapons, which they can use during the upcoming spring offensive. From now until this spring and beyond, Iran has to pressure the US as much as possible. That's pretty much all Iran can do at this point. 



Myself said:


> As I said in another post, this was not the first time this regime used “airplane crash” to get through and fulfill its dirty agendas. Also, the economic problem with the country is not Trump, neither the sanctions. The estate currency has lost its value continuously since this corrupt regime came to power more than 4 decades ago, even when no ‘effective’ sanctions were in place for the first three decades of their ruling. Few days ago the ratio of the market Rial-now to Rial-then reached again to 145,000/75~1,900 times! It is very ironic that Rial experienced its major loss in value before the effective sanctions took place during Mr. Saboorjian’s presidency: 12,000/75 ~ 160 vs. 135,000/12000~ 11.2

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## PeeD

The Danish account on the demoralizing effect of a very limited BM attack shows what true shock and awe is. "Helicopters split in half".
I bet those night time C-130 flights were mainly to remove those wreckage.

General Salami also confirmed that 2 missiles failed inside Iran. So if original 15 missiles, 13 hit the targets.

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## Sineva

PeeD said:


> The Danish account on the demoralizing effect of a very limited BM attack shows what true shock and awe is. "Helicopters split in half".
> I bet those night time C-130 flights were mainly to remove those wreckage.
> 
> General Salami also confirmed that 2 missiles failed inside Iran. So if original 15 missiles, 13 hit the targets.


Did they say if it was the solid fueled or liquid fueled missiles that had malfunctioned?


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## yavar

testimony of Danish military Sergeant present at time of Iran IRGC missile strike at U.S. military base Ain Al-Assad in Iraq, talking to channel 2 Danish news

In a bunker in Iraq, Danish sergeant John and the other Danish soldiers waited for several hours for the Iranian attack on the Ain al-Asad military base in Al Anbar province in western Iraq overnight. - It was terrible. It cannot be described and it should not be experienced. We could do nothing, we could just accept. So we couldn't use our training in that situation, he tells TV 2. then came the attack. - Suddenly the first layer comes, as I call it. Nine rockets a barely a ton each. It cannot be described. I've never experienced anything like it, and I hope to never come to it again, says John. Violent attack The attack was so severe that the bunker shook, and dust penetrated in large quantities. - We had to sit with scarves on our faces just to breathe, says John. But it was the ignorance and powerlessness that were the worst for the Danish soldiers. The ignorance of how close to the next one is and when it will come. After all, we had no idea down there. We could just sit and take a seat. We couldn't do any of what we're trained for. We could just wait, says John. The Danish soldiers reacted differently along the way. - Some sit and tell jokes to protect themselves. Some are closing in on themselves, and some are shedding a tear, says the Danish sergeant. The first setbacks were so severe that we were sure we were going to a golden desert and nothing was left. We were really surprised it wasn't over our heads. I would estimate that the nearest rocket hit 300 feet from us, and as we walked around afterwards, there were half helicopters and holes so big that you could park a van in them, John says. Now that the Danish soldiers have been a few days away from the experience, the mood has changed. It is still crowded, but the soldiers are also relieved and they enjoy themselves in Kuwait, playing cards and talking to the family at home. Psychologists are now on their way to Kuwait to help the Danish soldiers recover from the experience.

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## GWXP

CNN video of the consequences of Iran attack

Video is above the article
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/13/...e-al-asad-base-iraq-exclusive-intl/index.html

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## Raghfarm007

> The first setbacks were so severe that we were sure we were going to a golden desert and nothing was left. We were really surprised it wasn't over our heads. I would estimate that the nearest rocket hit 300 yards from us, and as we walked around afterwards, there were half helicopters, and there were holes so big that you could park a van in them, John says



Yeap.... minimal damage to structures and equipment..... you´d hardly notice any difference..... all the missiles missed, and the brave men´s training kicked in.

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## Sina-1

Raghfarm007 said:


> Yeap.... minimal damage to strutues and equipment..... you´d hardly notice any difference..... all the missiles missed, and the brave men´s training kicked in.


Iranian BM are inaccurate and only good for scratching!



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216743713495572482

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## GWXP

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216072284911239168

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## Sina-1

GWXP said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216072284911239168


Lol @ “advanced warning” which is clearly phone call from Zarif!

also the lt col is still shaking!

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## Iskander

*When Iran Attacks*

On January 8, 2020, Iran used ballistic missiles to attack U.S. air bases in Iraq, in response to the U.S.-targeted killing of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Quds Force (IRGC-QF) commander Qasem Soleimani. *The attack against U.S. bases in Iraq demonstrates that Tehran continues to rely on its missile forces as a tool for signaling, diplomacy, propaganda, deterrence, and retaliation. The precise character of the attack also confirms that Iran’s missile capabilities have advanced considerably in recent years. Such deliberate targeting may have allowed Iran to avoid killing U.S. military personnel, thereby achieving strategic effects while minimizing the risk of further escalation. It also serves, however, as a warning that Iran’s missiles pose a credible threat to U.S. and allied military forces in the region.
*
Q1: What did Iran do?

A1: Around 1:30 a.m. local time on January 8, Iran fired around 15 ballistic missiles against two military bases in Iraq that housed U.S. troops, Ain Al Asad air base near Baghdad and another facility near Erbil in northern Iraq. Iran likely launched the missiles from its missile bases around Kermanshah near Iraq, which it has used for previous missile launches into Iraq and Syria over the past two years.

Neither the U.S. nor the Iraqi government has reported any causalities, but early analysis of open-source satellite imagery suggests that the missiles destroyed several buildings at Ain Al Asad, including what appear to be aircraft hangers. Iran reportedly gave warning to the Iraqi government around 90 minutes before the strike.

Q2: What was Iran hoping to accomplish?

A2: This attack probably supported several Iranian objectives. First and foremost, it served as a response to the killing of Soleimani. The strike both signaled Iranian resolve to defend its influence in the region and satisfied pressure from elements of the Iranian population and regime that desired vengeance for his death. This attack was unique in its directness against U.S. forces without any attempt to obscure the source of the attack. Rather, Iranian officials promptly claimed credit for the attack on state-run news outlets and on social media. In many of its other recent operations, by contrast, Iran has deflected attribution through its use of regional proxy forces and straight denial.

Certain details of the strike also seem to indicate a level of restraint on Iran’s part. Iran provided the Iraqi government with advance warning, giving time for both U.S., Iraqi, and other allied forces to prepare. *The precision of the attack may have allowed Iran to more carefully choose targets to avoid causing casualties, giving the United States an easier off-ramp to deescalate.

On the other hand, the attack’s surgical character may also serve as a warning about the potential of future attacks. Iran could use missiles with similar accuracy to maximize damage rather than limit it. The lack of casualties in this particular case may have been a success rather than a failure of Iranian missiles or missileers.
*
Q3: What did Iran fire?

A3: Although the exact missiles used in the attack remain unconfirmed, early evidence suggests Iran fired Qiam-type-type ballistic missiles, and possibly others from its Fateh missile family. Qiams are short-ranged liquid-fueled missiles, an advanced variant of the Scud. It notably has a warhead that separates from the missile’s main body, somewhat uncommon for a short-range missile. Images of debris from Qiam missile bodies in Iraq began circulating on social media shortly after the attack.

Iranian state media also speculate Iran also fired Fateh 110Zolfaghar. Fateh missiles are solid-fueled, meaning they can be launched at short notice because they do not need to be fueled before launch. Some Fateh variants are reportedly able to maneuver during flight, increasing their accuracy.

The Qiam and Fateh models are among the more accurate weapons in Iran’s missile arsenal. A cursory analysis of the satellite imagery suggests, however, that the accuracy of these missiles may be even greater than previously suspected.

Q4: How did U.S. forces react to the attack?

A4: According to President Trump’s remarks, U.S. and Iraqi forces took precautionary measures to weather the attack, which included sheltering and dispersal. The president also credited the U.S. early warning system, which he said, “worked very well.” The president is likely referring to a constellation of overhead satellites known as the Space-based Infrared System (SBIRS), which can detect the intense heat of ballistic missiles launches. The satellites communicate this information to command and control systems, which distribute that information to allow troops to prepare for incoming, and if in position, to ready missile defenses. The Pentagon has not acknowledged the presence of any missile defense systems at either Ain Al Asad air base or the base near Erbil.

Q5: Has Iran done anything like this before?

A5: Iran has launched similar missile attacks into Iraq and Syria in recent years, although never targeting U.S. personnel. On June 2017, Iran launched six missiles into eastern Syria targeting Islamic States positions near Deir-Ez Zour in retaliation for Islamic States attacks in Tehran. Iran carried out a similar attack against the Islamic State a year later in October 2018. In September 2018, Iran launched seven Fateh-110 missiles at the alleged headquarters of the Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iran and Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan in Koya, Iraq.

Beyond these direct attacks originating from Iran itself, the IRGC-QF has proliferated missile and rockets around the region. Due to IRGC-QF support, Hezbollah in Lebanon now possesses over 130,000 missiles and rockets, and Iran has supplied missiles and drones to its Houthi allies in Yemen. Most recently, the IRGC-QF has been supplying rockets and missiles to pro-Tehran militias in Iraq, which have used these weapons against U.S. facilities in Iraq. This includes the deadly rocket attack on December 27, 2019, which sparked the recent cycle of escalation.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/when-iran-attacks

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## skyshadow

*"You looked around at each other and you think: Where are we going to run? How are you going to get away from that?" said Ferguson.

"I don't wish anyone to have that level of fear," he said. "No one in the world should ever have to feel something like that."*














































https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/13/...e-al-asad-base-iraq-exclusive-intl/index.html

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## GWXP

One doesn't see such pictures of American bases very often

Hope real revenge via proxies will follow this year----US troops should return back home in horizontal position

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## Sina-1

skyshadow said:


> *"You looked around at each other and you think: Where are we going to run? How are you going to get away from that?" said Ferguson.
> 
> "I don't wish anyone to have that level of fear," he said. "No one in the world should ever have to feel something like that."*
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> https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/13/...e-al-asad-base-iraq-exclusive-intl/index.html



please note that this is AFTER 1 week of clean up!

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## Philosopher

Poor soldiers were probably wearing diapers in their bunkers when this attack was occurring.

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## skyshadow

Sina-1 said:


> please note that this is AFTER 1 week of clean up!


yes as we did not see those helicopters turned in half

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## Raghfarm007

LOL.... the yankee pigs now realise its not good to terrorise the world with bombs and missiles, after they have been under missiles attack.... how very funny. The scum can dish it out, but cant take it. These bastards have been raining missiles on woman and children, but their brave soilders cant take what they dish out to civilians.

I wonder how many emergency planes loads of underwear was sent to the brave soilders after they all shat themselves continuesly all night.

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## Blue In Green

skyshadow said:


> *"You looked around at each other and you think: Where are we going to run? How are you going to get away from that?" said Ferguson.
> 
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> https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/13/...e-al-asad-base-iraq-exclusive-intl/index.html



This was just a small demonstration of what Iran can do, Idk why so many here on PDF are willing to just blissfully ignore such a successful operation even though it was just for face-saving that garnered zero official U.S. service men casualties.

The military professionalism, targeting, intelligence that lead to Iran targeted U.S. assets and only U.S. assets at the shared U.S.-Iraqi airbase lends credence to Iran's military capabilities.



Mr Robot said:


> Poor soldiers were probably wearing diapers in their bunkers when this attack was occurring.



Accurate strikes like these would send shivers down any soldiers spine no matter who they are to be fair. Knowing that your enemy has your number and can quite literally vaporize you and your fellow soldiers with one missile rather quickly is scary. The Danish service member had a rather somber yet sober perspective on the entire showdown.

Anyways, the U.S. was tipped off by Iraq through Iran, that's why there was "zero" official casualties but I'm assuming the U.S. is hiding some material damage from the public, at least to some degree.

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## Iskander

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216703764826140673
https://pmd.cdn.turner.com/cnn/big/...amon-pkg-nr-vpx.cnn_3005271_768x432_1300k.mp4

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## Philosopher



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## Ich

What will be the next steps in the development of iranian missiles? Maneuverable reentry vehicles? Or does that already exist?


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## Raghfarm007

I heard sepah is going to unvail a Space Launch Vehicle soon....cuase the scum in the government wont do any space launches.

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## Philosopher

Time for Iran to reveal Ghaem. It's been too long already.

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## Sina-1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216799202426179584

Several troops CNN spoke to said the event had shifted their view of warcraft: the US military is rarely on the receiving end of sophisticated weaponry, despite launching the most advanced attacks in the world.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/13/...e-al-asad-base-iraq-exclusive-intl/index.html

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## Messerschmitt

Ich said:


> What will be the next steps in the development of iranian missiles? Maneuverable reentry vehicles? Or does that already exist?


The Emad missile, a variant of the Shahab-3, is equipped with a MaRV.

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## Ich

Messerschmitt said:


> The Emad missile, a variant of the Shahab-3, is equipped with a MaRV.



Hoo so there is not much left in military missile development. Me think next is bigger missile with more payload for ICBMs or SATs.

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## Philosopher

Iran needs these hypersonic type of weapons now. I am talking about scramjet, glide and wave riders. These will give a serious added capability. They better have already started the development of these.

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## Raghfarm007

Video of American soldires packing up their belongings and going home:
https://www.aparat.com/v/3fx2D/پایگاه_آمریکایی_&laquo;عین_الاسد&raquo;_چند_روز_پس_از_پاسخ_موشکی

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## skyshadow

*New footage obtained by the BBC shows last weeks IRGC attack on the Ain Al Assad airbase in Iraq in response to the assassination of Qassem Soleimani. 



 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216813858104455168





























*



Ich said:


> What will be the next steps in the development of iranian missiles? Maneuverable reentry vehicles? Or does that already exist?




*Maneuverable reentry vehicles already exist since 2014*

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## Sina-1

Ich said:


> What will be the next steps in the development of iranian missiles? Maneuverable reentry vehicles? Or does that already exist?


Would love to see a Fateh variant which is launched vertically within a canister. Think of that accuracy and destruction on Iran’s future warships. Talk about power projection!

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> It’s funny the video you use for proof the title literally starts with “hundreds of thousands” NOT “millions”
> 
> LOL I was born in Iran, but I don’t know the streets? It’s funny you talk like a government fanboy more than a serious intellectual individual.
> 
> If we talk about who knows the streets, business’, connections with government officials. The results could be surprising. Not to mention having those that served in the imposed war.
> 
> But unlike you I actually give a damn about the country, I do not sit and parrot Republic propaganda.
> 
> The Republic is fractionalized and soon they will bicker (already happened) then they will argue over certain decisions and eventually some will break apart from each other and seek to undermine one another.
> 
> Trump will get re elected and Iran has to suffer another 4.5 years of sanctions. Only a naive fool would believe the people will accept 4.5 years of this! We haven’t even reached the 2 year anniversary since Trump left the deal!
> 
> Solemani’s death isn’t going to keep the people happy with how their government is managing things. They mourned a hero’s passing, two different things.




I wouldn't expect any different from Western Media!!! The fact that millions came out is well known now if you wish to stick your head in the sand and remain under the delusion that a few morons protesting under the bridge in the dead of night chanting nonsense like how "US isn't our Enemy" less then a week after they murdered one of our most famous Generals that those morons are in the majority.... Sure, stick your head under the sand and remain clueless....
It's funny how it's idiots who have never even voted in an Iranian election always try to make themselves to be in the majority and the real fact are that the vast majority of eligible voters in Iran show up to vote election after election.

You wanna remain clueless then that's your right! Good luck with that!

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## TheImmortal

Ich said:


> Hoo so there is not much left in military missile development. Me think next is bigger missile with more payload for ICBMs or SATs.



Many things Iran can still do. They can work and create a new warhead explosive combination that yields greater explosion.

They can build missiles that can be launched from stand alone canisters instead of TELs.

They can improve reliability and lessen failure rate.

But personally I think Iran should focus on long range high altitude supersonic drone bombers that can drop long range PGMs in swarm formation.

I think that can do well to compliment the missile force.

Right now RQ series are way too slow, altitude is not high enough, and payload is weak.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216812624291254273

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216812468439330816

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## Sineva

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216812624291254273
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216812468439330816


That is *FVCKIN* beautiful.......Goddamn!
Many thanks for posting this,I`d wondered when we`d get to see some of the responses from the people on the ground when the missiles hit.

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## Messerschmitt

Sineva said:


> That is *FVCKIN* beautiful.......Goddamn!
> Many thanks for posting this,I`d wondered when we`d get to see some of the responses from the people on the ground when the missiles hit.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217056455913877504

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## Sineva

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217056455913877504



That is beautiful,thank you.


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## skyshadow



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## Philosopher

skyshadow said:


>



What's that?


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## skyshadow

Mr Robot said:


> What's that?


one big underground missile site

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## skyshadow

*U.S. troops describe moments Iranian missiles hit Iraqi base*

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


>



Im glad they colored the buildings so bright it can be seen from space. Jesus

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## TruthHurtz

TheImmortal said:


> Im glad they colored the buildings so bright it can be seen from space. Jesus



Anyone with a satellite can see them anyway.


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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


>


They forgot to put on some bullseye signs over the roofs in yellow or white color preferably illuminated at night hours to make it more difficult for enemy to target them...



TruthHurtz said:


> Anyone with a satellite can see them anyway.



Between the brown or dark paint which costs the same as blue one they have chosen the last one?!


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## TruthHurtz

scimitar19 said:


> They forgot to put on some bullseye signs over the roofs in yellow or white color preferably illuminated at night hours to make it more difficult for enemy to target them...
> 
> 
> 
> Between the brown or dark paint which costs the same as blue one they have chosen the last one?!



We don't know the reasoning behind it. For all we know it could just be empty buildings used as a diversion from real Iranian missile sites. And yes it could all just be a silly choice of colour.

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## TheImmortal

TruthHurtz said:


> We don't know the reasoning behind it. For all we know it could just be empty buildings used as a diversion from real Iranian missile sites. And yes it could all just be a silly choice of colour.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216854964988981249
They buildings are covers over entrances to cover the blast proof covers.

I mean IRGC puts “camo nets” on the front of their TELS which do NOTHING. But a missile storage base they put bright sky blue paint on the buildings.

I swear the logic here...


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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216854964988981249
> They buildings are covers over entrances to cover the blast proof covers.
> 
> I mean IRGC puts “camo nets” on the front of their TELS which do NOTHING. But a missile storage base they put bright sky blue paint on the buildings.
> 
> I swear the logic here...



You're way too cynical sometimes man, can you like tone it down from time to time?

Everything is always some massive Iranian **** up to you isn't it lmao. Some oversight that Iran didn't account for or something, Jesus.... Not trying to start shit on you my dude but man you really are getting pedantic with it.

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## Raghfarm007

yeap... still havent forgotten the claims that Iranian missiles were filled with concrete instead of explosives......bullsheet gets tired very quickly

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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> You're way too cynical sometimes man, can you like tone it down from time to time?
> 
> Everything is always some massive Iranian **** up to you isn't it lmao. Some oversight that Iran didn't account for or something, Jesus.... Not trying to start shit but man you really are getting pedantic with it.



“Everything is one massive Iranian **** up to you”

Yes, that whole country is a **** up. Talk to some prominent businessmen and you will find out. Better yet see how many civil court cases are won by bribing the judge. It’s a mafia society.

And speaking of **** up’s, it’s clear that IRGC is prone to MANY of them. Let’s not forget they just shot down a passenger plane less than 10KM from an airport. 

And let’s not forget all those fancy radars did nothing to change IRGC leadership mind when they gave instructions that cruise missiles have been fired and are inbound to air defense operators. They had faulty intelligence and until the very end didn’t drop the threat level or tell crews to stand down long after Trump went to bed with his “all is well tweet”. Even a monkey knew no further attack was coming overnight, US markets began rallying back their losses overnight. Little things my friend.

So yes that is why IRGC went on national TV and said “goh khordam” and will accept any punishment handed to us. Because even for IRGC this was one ROYAL **** up.

Yes, I know people don’t like to hear that. I know they want to hear that IRGC is this elite super commando mythical force, but those that actually know IRGC it’s just a big mafia organization with power struggles/corruption/and bribery like anything else. They are prone to mistakes and make many of them. They have been infiltrated by spies like any other organization.

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## Ich

TheImmortal said:


> “Everything is one massive Iranian **** up to you”
> 
> Yes, that whole country is a **** up. Talk to some prominent businessmen and you will find out. Better yet see how many civil court cases are won by bribing the judge. It’s a mafia society.
> 
> And speaking of **** up’s, it’s clear that IRGC is prone to MANY of them. Let’s not forget they just shot down a passenger plane less than 10KM from an airport.
> 
> And let’s not forget all those fancy radars did nothing to change IRGC leadership mind when they gave instructions that cruise missiles have been fired and are inbound to air defense operators. They had faulty intelligence and until the very end didn’t drop the threat level or tell crews to stand down long after Trump went to bed with his “all is well tweet”. Even a monkey knew no further attack was coming overnight, US markets began rallying back their losses overnight. Little things my friend.
> 
> So yes that is why IRGC went on national TV and said “goh khordam” and will accept any punishment handed to us. Because even for IRGC this was one ROYAL **** up.
> 
> Yes, I know people don’t like to hear that. I know they want to hear that IRGC is this elite super commando mythical force, but those that actually know IRGC it’s just a big mafia organization with power struggles/corruption/and bribery like anything else. They are prone to mistakes and make many of them. They have been infiltrated by spies like any other organization.



As i said before: The military did nothing wrong. If there is a threat against Iran with a lot of enemy fighterplanes around Iran in the air then there is highest alarm and it is better to shot down anything unknown than losing strike back capability. And unknown was the passanger plane cause of no transponder as we learned. If not first there was a manpad what kills transponder and than the passangerplane makes a turn back to airport and came over a military site and so TOR1 fired.

But regardless of this all: Only the people who do not implement "No Fly" fpr civil planes are guilty. Cause this all could not happen - regardless it was a terror attack or it was military attack - if there had been a No Fly.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> “Everything is one massive Iranian **** up to you”
> 
> Yes, that whole country is a **** up. Talk to some prominent businessmen and you will find out. Better yet see how many civil court cases are won by bribing the judge. It’s a mafia society.
> 
> And speaking of **** up’s, it’s clear that IRGC is prone to MANY of them. Let’s not forget they just shot down a passenger plane less than 10KM from an airport.
> 
> And let’s not forget all those fancy radars did nothing to change IRGC leadership mind when they gave instructions that cruise missiles have been fired and are inbound to air defense operators. They had faulty intelligence and until the very end didn’t drop the threat level or tell crews to stand down long after Trump went to bed with his “all is well tweet”. Even a monkey knew no further attack was coming overnight, US markets began rallying back their losses overnight. Little things my friend.
> 
> So yes that is why IRGC went on national TV and said “goh khordam” and will accept any punishment handed to us. Because even for IRGC this was one ROYAL **** up.
> 
> Yes, I know people don’t like to hear that. I know they want to hear that IRGC is this elite super commando mythical force, but those that actually know IRGC it’s just a big mafia organization with power struggles/corruption/and bribery like anything else. They are prone to mistakes and make many of them. They have been infiltrated by spies like any other organization.



Well yes, just relax sometimes man that's all I'm saying lol.


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## TruthHurtz

BlueInGreen2 said:


> You're way too cynical sometimes man, can you like tone it down from time to time?
> 
> Everything is always some massive Iranian **** up to you isn't it lmao. Some oversight that Iran didn't account for or something, Jesus.... Not trying to start shit on you my dude but man you really are getting pedantic with it.



Agreed he's been fvcking insufferable since the strikes. Probably because he doesn't want to be charged with sedition lol.

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## Blue In Green

TruthHurtz said:


> Agreed he's been fvcking insufferable since the strikes. Probably because he doesn't want to be charged with sedition lol.



Eh, lol I mean it's whatever.

I don't personally think TheImmortal is a bad dude or anything not at all (I like him actually), in fact I'll say that his heart is in the right place; it's just that it seems his post contain more bitching and whining recently, which is understandable given all the bullshit that has gone down. That's really my only chief complaint, he's not trying to start shit for the purposes of trolling since he has legitimate concerns, idk maybe it's just me who doesn't wanna always see a half a page about something Iran is doing wrong. We all know Iran is far from good or even acceptable regarding a multitude of things but at the same time Iran on PDF is *constantly* under siege from racist Arabs or some other sectarian ne'er-do-well wishing ill upon Iranians or as they like to say "mullahs".

TheImmortal's introspection is important, Iran does have problems, BAD problems so he is justified in brining them up I think.

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## TheImmortal

TruthHurtz said:


> Agreed he's been fvcking insufferable since the strikes. Probably because he doesn't want to be charged with sedition lol.



Complete nonsense. And Iran will go down as the only country in modern history to have knocked an airplane out of the sky NEXT to an MAJOR airport.

But I been stopped by Basij at gunpoint a year after the major Ahmadinejad protests knowing I was dual citizen. And when they learned of the mistake their boss came and apologized repeatedly. I been in the best neighborhoods of Tehran and the worst neighborhoods where most people don’t even go into. I feel safe there and have no worries, been in the streets at 3 AM without a care in the world.

There is nothing to fear of the Republic if you have connections and know the game they play. 

So yes I criticize the Republic when warranted and defend its action when warranted because I can. I ain’t some wanna fanboy needing to act as the spokesperson for a propaganda machine.

There is two Iranians on this forum: the West loving Shah-ist and the Republic loving neo conservatives. 

I can comfortably say I am in the middle of these two extremes.



Ich said:


> As i said before: The military did nothing wrong. If there is a threat against Iran with a lot of enemy fighterplanes around Iran in the air then there is highest alarm and it is better to shot down anything unknown than losing strike back capability. And unknown was the passanger plane cause of no transponder as we learned. If not first there was a manpad what kills transponder and than the passangerplane makes a turn back to airport and came over a military site and so TOR1 fired.
> 
> But regardless of this all: Only the people who do not implement "No Fly" fpr civil planes are guilty. Cause this all could not happen - regardless it was a terror attack or it was military attack - if there had been a No Fly.





Ich said:


> As i said before: The military did nothing wrong. If there is a threat against Iran with a lot of enemy fighterplanes around Iran in the air then there is highest alarm and it is better to shot down anything unknown than losing strike back capability. And unknown was the passanger plane cause of no transponder as we learned. If not first there was a manpad what kills transponder and than the passangerplane makes a turn back to airport and came over a military site and so TOR1 fired.
> 
> But regardless of this all: Only the people who do not implement "No Fly" fpr civil planes are guilty. Cause this all could not happen - regardless it was a terror attack or it was military attack - if there had been a No Fly.



@Ich the plane was not “turning” back. It’s been proven to be a LIE. Look at the picture of the cockpit, the TOR-M1 detonated before impact and did a full frontal shotgun shrapnel blast to the cockpit the pilot and instruments were likely dead/destroyed instantly.

Hence why there was no more communication with the plane as it went down. The flight path the plane took before being hit was very similar to its other paths. 

Major questions that need to be answered 

1) Why was the order given that cruise missiles were fired and entering Iranian airspace?

2) Why was a TOR-M1 kill sphere system used in Tehran a civilian zone when it is designed for secluded military bases with no civilian traffic? It’s the difference between putting a human to monitor the border of a country and putting a minefield. 

3) Why was the alert (defcon) level not dropped in the hours after the attack?


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## aryobarzan

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Eh, lol I mean it's whatever.
> 
> I don't personally think TheImmortal is a bad dude or anything not at all (I like him actually), in fact I'll say that his heart is in the right place; it's just that it seems his post contain more bitching and whining recently, which is understandable given all the bullshit that has gone down. That's really my only chief complaint, he's not trying to start shit for the purposes of trolling since he has legitimate concerns, idk maybe it's just me who doesn't wanna always see a half a page about something Iran is doing wrong. We all know Iran is far from good or even acceptable regarding a multitude of things but at the same time Iran on PDF is *constantly* under siege from racist Arabs or some other sectarian ne'er-do-well wishing ill upon Iranians or as they like to say "mullahs".
> 
> TheImmortal's introspection is important, Iran does have problems, BAD problems so he is justified in brining them up I think.



I agree with your statements. It is always good to have someone that tells you things you do not want to hear as long as his intentions are in the right place...( the 10th man story in World war Z).
now about those Beautiful! (lol) blue colored buildings...My view is that knowing that your enemy has eyes in the sky (In all light spectrums) it is an asset and and the same time a curse... when you see too much you can also be deceived easily....train the enemy to look for blue buildings and decide which ones to hit and which ones to pass...they should paint a middle finger in bright orange on them too..lol...every cave and tunnel in Iran should get something like that confuse the hell out of the poor photo analyst..just my thoughts


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## TheImmortal

aryobarzan said:


> I agree with your statements. It is always good to have someone that tells you things you do not want to hear as long as his intentions are in the right place...( the 10th man story in World war Z).
> now about those Beautiful! (lol) blue colored buildings...My view is that knowing that your enemy has eyes in the sky (In all light spectrums) it is an asset and and the same time a curse... when you see too much you can also be deceived easily....train the enemy to look for blue buildings and decide which ones to hit and which ones to pass...they should paint a middle finger in bright orange on them too..lol...every cave and tunnel in Iran should get something like that confuse the hell out of the poor photo analyst..just my thoughts



Anyone here that accuses me of being a CIA lover or Shah lover or whatever other excuse is just a fanboy. Not different than some of the delusional Pakistani trolls attacking this section that think their country has no flaws and is a great world power.

I tell it like how it is. I’m not going to sit here and Baghdad Bob these idiots who just want to hear POSITIVES about Iran and only that. Take the Negatives with the Positives.

If they don’t like it they “mitoonan beran be nanaye jendashoon gerye konan”

Hopefully the people in the Republic are as critical as I am. Because the worst thing for a country’s leadership is surrounding yourself with a bunch of “yes men”.

Saddam did that and we saw how his military buckled and fled.

Anyway the blue signifies something, this isn’t the first Iranian military site I have seen using blue building color, though it is the first site I have seen that uses it this extensively.

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## aryobarzan

TheImmortal said:


> Anyone here that accuses me of being a CIA lover or Shah lover or whatever other excuse is just a fanboy. Not different than some of the delusional Pakistani trolls attacking this section that think their country has no flaws and is a great world power.
> 
> I tell it like how it is. I’m not going to sit here and Baghdad Bob these idiots who just want to hear POSITIVES about Iran and only that. Take the Negatives with the Positives.
> 
> If they don’t like it they “mitoonan beran be nanaye jendashoon gerye konan”
> 
> Hopefully the people in the Republic are as critical as I am. Because the worst thing for a country’s leadership is surrounding yourself with a bunch of “yes men”.
> 
> Saddam did that and we saw how his military buckled and fled.
> 
> Anyway the blue signifies something, this isn’t the first Iranian military site I have seen using blue building color, though it is the first site I have seen that uses it this extensively.


I think you are a Patriot and no one has the right to call you any things just because you present the "Other side" of the story..In critical times such as these it is important that all Iranian patriots close ranks and stay together .. Mistakes are happening but the best time to discuss them is when we all get back to some level of calm. Trump is not finished with Iran he gets a punch and will want to deliver two in return so I hope Iranians understand the character of this animal and be ready for it..I hope those AD units do not get scared hitting that button next time around.

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## ashool

aryobarzan said:


> I think you are a Patriot and no one has the right to call you any things just because you present the "Other side" of the story..In critical times such as these it is important that all Iranian patriots close ranks and stay together .. Mistakes are happening but the best time to discuss them is when we all get back to some level of calm. Trump is not finished with Iran he gets a punch and will want to deliver two in return so I hope Iranians understand the character of this animal and be ready for it..I hope those AD units do not get scared hitting that button next time around.


why the hell patriot means to you so so so funny, other side! are you very mad of stricks. from start some of you and thet have usa cheap flag who have no identity if you are patriot you have no other shitty flages. patriot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????if all patriot is look likes you what the tritor look like, dont destroy patriot means plz you dont know patriot even what is it

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## DoubleYouSee

TheImmortal said:


> Anyone here that accuses me of being a CIA lover or Shah lover or whatever other excuse is just a fanboy. Not different than some of the delusional Pakistani trolls attacking this section that think their country has no flaws and is a great world power.
> 
> I tell it like how it is. I’m not going to sit here and Baghdad Bob these idiots who just want to hear POSITIVES about Iran and only that. Take the Negatives with the Positives.
> 
> If they don’t like it they “mitoonan beran be nanaye jendashoon gerye konan”
> 
> Hopefully the people in the Republic are as critical as I am. Because the worst thing for a country’s leadership is surrounding yourself with a bunch of “yes men”.
> 
> Saddam did that and we saw how his military buckled and fled.
> 
> Anyway the blue signifies something, this isn’t the first Iranian military site I have seen using blue building color, though it is the first site I have seen that uses it this extensively.


You are very direct......


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## Messerschmitt

AFAIK the aquamarine-colored roof tops were Tehrani Moghaddam's signature. I remember Fabian Hinz said this in a podcast once in German language.

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## TruthHurtz

Messerschmitt said:


> AFAIK the aquamarine-colored roof tops were Tehrani Moghaddam's signature. I remember Fabian Hinz said this in a podcast once in German language.



I think it was the colour of his favourite football team?

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## scimitar19

TruthHurtz said:


> I think it was the colour of his favourite football team?



Look at the bright side, at least its not pink!


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## skyshadow

Messerschmitt said:


> AFAIK the aquamarine-colored roof tops were Tehrani Moghaddam's signature. I remember Fabian Hinz said this in a podcast once in German language.





TruthHurtz said:


> I think it was the colour of his favourite football team?



Tehrani Moghaddam loved the blue color ever since every missile compound got blue color even when he was alive



scimitar19 said:


> Look at the bright side, at least its not pink!

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## skyshadow

*great clip from our brother Amir*



*Khorramshahr-2 missile test*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217043818513608704

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## skyshadow

*"There are at least 14 impact locations* as well as several duds, which are collected for examination."


https://www.france24.com/en/20200114-iran-missile-attack-on-iraq-s-ain-al-asad-base-a-timeline

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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> *great clip from our brother Amir*
> 
> 
> 
> *Khorramshahr-2 missile test*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217043818513608704


A shooting star that only grants death wishes if you are lucky enough. Never thought IRGC had a sense of humor behind the mask of seriousness.

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> *great clip from our brother Amir*
> 
> 
> 
> *Khorramshahr-2 missile test*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217043818513608704


Hopefully we can send one of those next time, for our good friend and pride of Iran, Haj Qasem.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215752765408006144

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## Korosh kabir

There is been reports of 280 casualties in first day after attack on US base that has been removed from media later and now this:
It is making more sense now.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217496618246664192

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## Arminkh

Korosh kabir said:


> There is been reports of 280 casualties in first day after attack on US base that has been removed from media later and now this:
> It is making more sense now.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217496618246664192


Legal terms seem legitimate. If true, this is bigger lie than what Iranians are now grilling Iran's government for.

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## Philosopher

If that letter is legit then expect this news to blow up soon. I am leaning towards it being fake for now.


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## TheImmortal

Korosh kabir said:


> There is been reports of 280 casualties in first day after attack on US base that has been removed from media later and now this:
> It is making more sense now.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217496618246664192



Stop actively spreading propaganda. Mods need to start banning members engaging in propaganda ops.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217558178428334081

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## PeeD

Wow, Sardar Hajizadehs claim or EW operation against U.S drone while Turmp was watching the aftermath of the BM attack in the situation room is apparently confirmed by the U.S one week after it happend.

Hajizadeh said this op may have been more important than the devastating BM attack itself.

A eyeopener to Trump with whom he is dealing? Seems these two coordinated shocks, were seen as necessary to prevent Trump to strike back: A shock and awe strike and then black displays, not knowing what has happened.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217275683069546497

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## Ich

PeeD said:


> Wow, Sardar Hajizadehs claim or EW operation against U.S drone while Turmp was watching the aftermath of the BM attack in the situation room is apparently confirmed by the U.S one week after it happend.
> 
> Hajizadeh said this op may have been more important than the devastating BM attack itself.
> 
> A eyeopener to Trump with whom he is dealing? Seems these two coordinated shocks, were seen as necessary to prevent Trump to strike back: A shock and awe strike and then black displays, not knowing what has happened.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217275683069546497



In the story there is no EW mentiont. It is said that the fiber connections between the UAV-Pilots working room and the controllroom were destroyed by the missiles and so they lost contact to the drones.


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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Wow, Sardar Hajizadehs claim or EW operation against U.S drone while Turmp was watching the aftermath of the BM attack in the situation room is apparently confirmed by the U.S one week after it happend.
> 
> Hajizadeh said this op may have been more important than the devastating BM attack itself.
> 
> A eyeopener to Trump with whom he is dealing? Seems these two coordinated shocks, were seen as necessary to prevent Trump to strike back: A shock and awe strike and then black displays, not knowing what has happened.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217275683069546497



Yes, IRGC is so sophisticated they did a massive EW blast on drones in the sky from thousands of KM away and then managed to shoot down their own passenger plane taking off from their own airport.

Hajizadeh is a known propagandist and exaggerating. I know a liar when I see one and that dude is one of the biggest. I am hoping Rahbar replaces him soon, I can’t stand him. 



Ich said:


> In the story there is no EW mentiont. It is said that the fiber connections between the UAV-Pilots working room and the controllroom were destroyed by the missiles and so they lost contact to the drones.



Why use the logical explanation when we can believe Hajizadeh?

Iran clearly targeted the drone areas because a drone was used to assassinate Solemani. So Iran later got wind their drones went blind from the attack and the. hajizadeh is taking credit for that by saying we did an EW attack. Show me proof.


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## scimitar19

Ich said:


> In the story there is no EW mentiont. It is said that the fiber connections between the UAV-Pilots working room and the controllroom were destroyed by the missiles and so they lost contact to the drones.



And yet no casualties have been reported since ghosts were inside either control room or working room operating these drones?!


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## Ich

scimitar19 said:


> And yet no casualties have been reported since ghosts were inside either control room or working room operating these drones?!



Hehe, i dont know, but maybe they all fled into the shelters and change clothes and due to that there was "no contact" with the drones.


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## TheImmortal

scimitar19 said:


> And yet no casualties have been reported since ghosts were inside either control room or working room operating these drones?!





Ich said:


> Hehe, i dont know, but maybe they all fled into the shelters and change clothes and due to that there was "no contact" with the drones.



You guys are both wrong.

A single operator room has fiber optic cables that head to the operator room and allow it to transmit data and information to antenna that then send it to drone or satellite depending on how far away the drone is.

the missile strikes severed that optic link meaning no information was coming to the operator and he was unable to send or receive new information.

Stop this obsession with casualties, most of the base was evacuated. Anyone that was outside of the bunkers were on the border looking for a possible ground attack.

Only injuries I heard of were concussions from shockwaves.


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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> es, IRGC is so sophisticated they did a massive EW blast on drones in the sky from thousands of KM away and then managed to shoot down their own passenger plane taking off from their own airport.
> 
> Hajizadeh is a known propagandist and exaggerating. I know a liar when I see one and that dude is one of the biggest. I am hoping Rahbar replaces him soon, I can’t stand him.





TheImmortal said:


> es, IRGC is so sophisticated they did a massive w blast on drones in the sky from thousands of KM away and then managed to shoot down their own passenger plane taking off from their own airport.
> 
> Hajizadeh is a known propagandist and exaggerating. I know a liar when I see one and that dude is one of the biggest. I am hoping Rahbar replaces him soon, I can’t stand him.


and we know burning one when we see it.from it shitty smell .its first one sardar hajizade said some thing like this ohhhh let alome rq170 mq-1 and.... so his liar ,so we see who is liar poor creature go wash yourself that smell are horrible tanx mr right

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Yes, IRGC is so sophisticated they did a massive EW blast on drones in the sky from thousands of KM away and then managed to shoot down their own passenger plane taking off from their own airport.
> 
> Hajizadeh is a known propagandist and exaggerating. I know a liar when I see one and that dude is one of the biggest. I am hoping Rahbar replaces him soon, I can’t stand him.
> 
> Why use the logical explanation when we can believe Hajizadeh?
> 
> Iran clearly targeted the drone areas because a drone was used to assassinate Solemani. So Iran later got wind their drones went blind from the attack and the. hajizadeh is taking credit for that by saying we did an EW attack. Show me proof.



Whether Iran hacked the satcom connection (calling it EW), or had a true EW asset on the ground or lets say the air, is not the point here. Whether Iran managed to hit the communication node responsible for those drones and just called it EW for propaganda is also not important.

Important is this: Hajizadeh was first to announce it and U.S explanation of burnt fails to explain why the drones did not imminently switch to satcom.

Even if U.S explanation is right and it was do it fire at the ground communication: The effects in Trumps situation room remain the same and its skill, tech an intel that allowed Iran to kill that communication node.

Shock and awe + black-out in front of Trump to prevent a counter strike.

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## sha ah

With the current tense situation with the US and the EU, I believe that Iran's best option right now is to unveil a new version of the KhorramShahr missile with longer range. Supposedly the Khorramshahr missile is based on the North Korean Hwasong-10 which has a range of 3000-4000. Although the version Iran is currently using for the Khorramshahr is the BM-25 with a range of 2500 KM ? Again alot of this is speculation. 

When Iran unveiled the Khorramshahr, it was stated that its range was 1000 KM - 2000 KM with a 1800 KG warhead. At 2000 KM Iran would just barely be able to reach France and not the UK. At 3000, all of Europe would pretty much be in range. 

Iran should at the very least unveil a version that has a range of 2500 KM and that's Iran being moderate. Realistically Iran could create a version with a range of 3000 KM. 

Iran would need a range of 6000 KM to reach the eastern USA and 7000 to reach the rest. Realistically since Iran has North Korea develop its missile program with financing and research, there's a 99.999% chance that Iran has the blueprints and technology to produce a ICBM or at least an IRBM.

What do you guys think Iran should do ? Produce and unveil an IRBM 3000-5500 KM or an ICBM 5500+ KM ? ? ? ? ? 

I personally believe that the unveiling of a new Iranian missile with a range of 3000 km (putting all of the EU within range) coupled with an intense spring offensive by the PMF and Taliban, which Iran could arm with small shipments of small weapons, would make it appear as if Trumps plans in the middle east had backfired.

Yes indeed this was a royal f### up. Iran should have definately closed its airspace after launching the missiles however Ukraine is also partly responsible for not grounding all their flights like the USA,UK,France,Canada did. 

I also don't buy the assessment by some people on this forum that the Tor M1 system cannot tell the difference between an outbound passenger plane and an incoming cruise missile. If that were the case then 
1) planes would be getting shot down left and right 
2) that system would not be stationed near an airport
3) the system would be completely useless 




TheImmortal said:


> “Everything is one massive Iranian **** up to you”
> 
> Yes, that whole country is a **** up. Talk to some prominent businessmen and you will find out. Better yet see how many civil court cases are won by bribing the judge. It’s a mafia society.
> 
> And speaking of **** up’s, it’s clear that IRGC is prone to MANY of them. Let’s not forget they just shot down a passenger plane less than 10KM from an airport.
> 
> And let’s not forget all those fancy radars did nothing to change IRGC leadership mind when they gave instructions that cruise missiles have been fired and are inbound to air defense operators. They had faulty intelligence and until the very end didn’t drop the threat level or tell crews to stand down long after Trump went to bed with his “all is well tweet”. Even a monkey knew no further attack was coming overnight, US markets began rallying back their losses overnight. Little things my friend.
> 
> So yes that is why IRGC went on national TV and said “goh khordam” and will accept any punishment handed to us. Because even for IRGC this was one ROYAL **** up.
> 
> Yes, I know people don’t like to hear that. I know they want to hear that IRGC is this elite super commando mythical force, but those that actually know IRGC it’s just a big mafia organization with power struggles/corruption/and bribery like anything else. They are prone to mistakes and make many of them. They have been infiltrated by spies like any other organization.





scimitar19 said:


> And yet no casualties have been reported since ghosts were inside either control room or working room operating these drones?!



They knew the attack was coming and were in bunkers ahead of time waiting. Even the Iraqi PM was informed ahead of time. However they neglected to close off Iran's airspace ahead of time. Even after western nations like USA,UK,France,Canada did so Iran still did not follow suit and Ukraine did nothing either. The level of incompetence is unbelievable, bordering on criminal negligence.


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## Zane_K

*Not Iranian but Russian ..*

Sorry people.. I know nothing to do with Iranian missiles. I’m new so please excuse me.
Just thought I’d share a vid I saw recently. Russian supersonic missile test in the Arctic.

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## Iskander

*‘Massive Improvement’ In Accuracy Of Iran Missiles Over Scud-B *
https://breakingdefense.com/2020/01/massive-improvement-in-accuracy-of-iran-missiles-over-scud-b/

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## skyshadow

Zane_K said:


> *Not Iranian but Russian ..*
> 
> Sorry people.. I know nothing to do with Iranian missiles. I’m new so please excuse me.
> Just thought I’d share a vid I saw recently. Russian supersonic missile test in the Arctic.


well it's cool actually Iran is working on supersonic cruise missiles too we expect to see it in action soon

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## yavar



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## Asaif

There are Reports that Iran fired empty Missiles in Empty Bases. 

The only Missile with Warhead ( Russian Built) hit Passenger Plane killing 176 people onboard.

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## Philosopher

Asaif said:


> There are Reports that Iran fired empty Missiles in Empty Bases.



Some people on the forum were claiming that at first because they wre judging the damage via satellite pics, but once we saw closer up pics, it was clear the damage was serious.







The warheads were in the 500kg range.

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


>



As I already sayd, quoting Washington post and soldiers directly afftected by the strike, there are "dozens" us soldiers "missing", if anyone beliefes there are 0 causalties as orange man sayd is delusional

And now there are popping up more and more death reports of us soldiers due "mysterious" reasons, we all know what really happened to them

More to come....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217820482575261697

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216759906457522178

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217820080286978050

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## skyshadow

*how are they going to place it at 530 KM when Simorgh only goes up to 300 KM?





*

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## Messerschmitt

skyshadow said:


> *how are they going to place it at 530 KM when Simorgh only goes up to 300 KM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Simorgh SLV can send satellites to an altitude of 500 km (310 miles).

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## Arminkh

Draco.IMF said:


> As I already sayd, quoting Washington post and soldiers directly afftected by the strike, there are "dozens" us soldiers "missing", if anyone beliefes there are 0 causalties as orange man sayd is delusional
> 
> And now there are popping up more and more death reports of us soldiers due "mysterious" reasons, we all know what really happened to them
> 
> More to come....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217820482575261697
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1216759906457522178
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217820080286978050


Did anyone seriously had any other potential approach in mind from US side? The only way they could avoid the war was to claim (truthfully or not) that there were no casualties. Otherwise Trump had to react or he would be seen as a weak President and lose his votes.

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## TruthHurtz

Arminkh said:


> Did anyone seriously had any other potential approach in mind from US side? The only way they could avoid the war was to claim (truthfully or not) that there were no casualties. Otherwise Trump had to react or he would be seen as a weak President and lose his votes.



The US lied about materiel damage and injuries but deaths would be too difficult to hide. There would be families coming out claiming they haven't had contact with their child since the attacks.

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## Great Janjua

You Persians are really the same as Indians believing in made up casualty figures


TruthHurtz said:


> The US lied about materiel damage and injuries but deaths would be too difficult to hide. There would be families coming out claiming they haven't had contact with their child since the attacks.


----------



## TruthHurtz

Great Janjua said:


> You Persians are really the same as Indians believing in made up casualty figures



I didn't say I believed in the casualty figures did I you freak? And I'm not Persian.

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## Great Janjua

TruthHurtz said:


> I didn't say I believed in the casualty figures did I you freak? And I'm not Persian.


You claimed the Americans are hiding casualties you cannot even comprehend your own bullshit


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## TruthHurtz

Great Janjua said:


> You claimed the Americans are hiding casualties you cannot even comprehend your own bullshit



Read my comment you illiterate freak. How tf did you even make it past UK immigration customs?

Your parents should've kept it out the family.



> The US lied about materiel damage and injuries *but deaths would be too difficult to hide*

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## Great Janjua

Injuries to whome the donkeys that you were riding to battle on you retarded Persian you dont even know what planet you are on so let me clarify for you no injuries and deaths caused only material damage at least you got one thing right


TruthHurtz said:


> Read my comment you illiterate freak. How tf did you even make it past UK immigration customs?
> 
> Your parents should've kept it out the family.


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## Arminkh

TruthHurtz said:


> The US lied about materiel damage and injuries but deaths would be too difficult to hide. There would be families coming out claiming they haven't had contact with their child since the attacks.


It is not possible to hide death but is possible to have a change cause or location of death. Some say that is what is happening .


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## TruthHurtz

Arminkh said:


> It is not possible to hide death but is possible to have a change cause or location of death. Some say that is what is happening .



I realise there's been a recent string of deaths of soldiers and airmen. But it's still to early to draw any connection between the missile strikes and recent deaths.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217918614583435265

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## skyshadow

*An informed IRGC source told IranViewer: Islamic Revolution Guard Corps has filmed the missile strike operation against Ain AlAssad Airbase housing American forces in Iraq using drones.



 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217866675166597122*

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## arashkamangir

*11 US troops injured in Iran missile strikes on Iraqi bases: report*

Eleven U.S. troops were injured in the Iranian missile strike on two Iraqi bases housing U.S. troops earlier this month launched in retaliation for the killing of a top general.

Defense One reported Thursday that the U.S. service members were airlifted to Kuwait and Germany where they received treatment for traumatic brain injuries and underwent further tests.

“Out of an abundance of caution, some service members were transported from Al Asad Air Base, Iraq to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany, others were sent to Camp Arifjan, Kuwait, for follow-on screening,” Col. Myles Caggins, a spokesman for U.S. military command in Baghdad, told the news outlet.

“When deemed fit for duty, the service members are expected to return to Iraq following screening. The health and welfare of our personnel is a top priority and we will not discuss any individual’s medical status," the statement continued.

At least some of the service members were thought to have suffered concussions in the attacks, according to a separate unnamed official.

“About a week after the attack some service members were still experiencing some symptoms of concussion,” the official said, adding: “We only got wind of this in the last 24 hours.”

The Trump administration previously had stated that no U.S. or Iraqi casualties were reported after the attacks, which occurred days after a U.S. airstrike killed Gen. Qassem Soleimani, head of Iran's Quds forces, outside of Baghdad International Airport.

President Trump addressed the nation following the strikes, stating that Iranian forces were backing down and indicating that further military action would not be taken unless provoked by Iran.


https://thehill.com/policy/defense/...in-iran-missile-strikes-on-iraqi-bases-report

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## 925boy

TruthHurtz said:


> I didn't say I believed in the casualty figures did I you freak? And I'm not Persian.


He also called me Persian and i an 0% Persian.

Oh...So US troops might've taken psychological damage, which would affect their ability to perform their military duties....hmm...

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## GWXP

*Stratfor: How Iran's Missile Attack on American Bases Showcases Its Weapons' Accuracy

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...n-bases-showcases-its-weapons-accuracy-114616*

The images paint a picture of precision: The first satellite imagery of the aftermath of the Iranian strike on Ayn al-Asad Air Base in Iraq highlights Iran's improved ability to accurately strike distant targets with its extensive missile arsenal. The pictures, released by imaging company Planet Labs on Jan. 8, show that Iran can chalk up its strike as a success even without inflicting U.S. casualties. What's more, they also show how Iran sought to skirt a delicate line in exacting public retribution while also avoiding an escalation that would lead to outright war.

According to reports, Iran fired around 16 short-range ballistic missiles at two bases with a U.S. presence in Iraq, Ayn al-Asad and Arbil International Airport. Tehran appears to have launched several of its less reliable Qaim 1 missiles at Arbil, though many of them apparently failed to hit their target. Still, the brunt of Iran's attack was Ayn al-Asad, which was hit by about 10 of Iran's more reliable Fateh-110 missiles (and possibly its more modern Fateh-313 variant).

The images from the aftermath at Ayn al-Asad illustrate the significant potency of the missiles that hit the base. The pictures reveal at least eight impact sites, with most appearing to have caused considerable damage to hangars and soft aircraft shelters that might have contained American jets or other aircraft. One of the strikes, for instance, appears to have hit soft aircraft shelters that housed CV-22 Ospreys, almost certainly causing at least some damage to aircraft. A separate impact appears to have hit another row of soft aircraft shelters containing helicopters, while another seems to have struck a hangar or machine shop used to service American unmanned aerial vehicles — a highly symbolic target given that these were potentially the same drones that the United States used to kill senior Iranian military leader Qassem Soleimani last week.

The lack of American casualties — despite the accuracy of the Iranian missiles — likely stems from two factors. First, Tehran appears to have made a deliberate decision to destroy equipment rather than kill American personnel. That is not to say that Iran wanted to absolutely avoid killing American service members in the strike — after all, no such operation could have eliminated that risk entirely. But the concentration of the hits on the aircraft and their support shelters, instead of the base's housing facilities, lays bare what Tehran was gunning for in the operation.

Second, the United States received ample warning of the incoming strike, allowing U.S. troops to shelter in bunkers and ride out the storm. The advanced warning reportedly included information from Iraq, which passed along news of the imminent attack that it had received from Iran, as well as notification from the United States' own early-warning systems, such as radars and satellite surveillance.

The nature of Iran's attack, the target set, the relatively limited number of missiles (despite Tehran's vast ballistic missile arsenal) and its subsequent signals to the United States that it intends to stand down all suggest that Tehran simply wanted to send a powerful message to the United States while minimizing the risk of a significant U.S. counterstrike. Of course, the Iranian operation could have incited a furious U.S. response if it had killed American soldiers, but Tehran made it abundantly clear that it wanted to make a show of its retaliation without touching off an outright war.

The Upshot

*The September 2019 attack on Saudi Arabia's Abqaiq and Khurais oil facilities, as well as the assault on Ayn al-Asad, illustrate how Iran retains potent capabilities even if its conventional military technology remains woefully outdated.* *Tehran's efforts to bolster its asymmetric capabilities in recent decades by investing in militias and weapons like cruise and ballistic missiles ensure that it retains the ability to inflict considerable damage on many in the region, even an adversary as powerful as the United States. This, coupled with Iran's strategic geographic proximity to critical energy fields and global energy supply lines, gives the country a great deal of leverage in both deterring and coercing its adversaries.*

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## TheImmortal

GWXP said:


> *Stratfor: How Iran's Missile Attack on American Bases Showcases Its Weapons' Accuracy
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...n-bases-showcases-its-weapons-accuracy-114616*
> 
> The images paint a picture of precision: The first satellite imagery of the aftermath of the Iranian strike on Ayn al-Asad Air Base in Iraq highlights Iran's improved ability to accurately strike distant targets with its extensive missile arsenal. The pictures, released by imaging company Planet Labs on Jan. 8, show that Iran can chalk up its strike as a success even without inflicting U.S. casualties. What's more, they also show how Iran sought to skirt a delicate line in exacting public retribution while also avoiding an escalation that would lead to outright war.
> 
> According to reports, Iran fired around 16 short-range ballistic missiles at two bases with a U.S. presence in Iraq, Ayn al-Asad and Arbil International Airport. Tehran appears to have launched several of its less reliable Qaim 1 missiles at Arbil, though many of them apparently failed to hit their target. Still, the brunt of Iran's attack was Ayn al-Asad, which was hit by about 10 of Iran's more reliable Fateh-110 missiles (and possibly its more modern Fateh-313 variant).
> 
> The images from the aftermath at Ayn al-Asad illustrate the significant potency of the missiles that hit the base. The pictures reveal at least eight impact sites, with most appearing to have caused considerable damage to hangars and soft aircraft shelters that might have contained American jets or other aircraft. One of the strikes, for instance, appears to have hit soft aircraft shelters that housed CV-22 Ospreys, almost certainly causing at least some damage to aircraft. A separate impact appears to have hit another row of soft aircraft shelters containing helicopters, while another seems to have struck a hangar or machine shop used to service American unmanned aerial vehicles — a highly symbolic target given that these were potentially the same drones that the United States used to kill senior Iranian military leader Qassem Soleimani last week.
> 
> The lack of American casualties — despite the accuracy of the Iranian missiles — likely stems from two factors. First, Tehran appears to have made a deliberate decision to destroy equipment rather than kill American personnel. That is not to say that Iran wanted to absolutely avoid killing American service members in the strike — after all, no such operation could have eliminated that risk entirely. But the concentration of the hits on the aircraft and their support shelters, instead of the base's housing facilities, lays bare what Tehran was gunning for in the operation.
> 
> Second, the United States received ample warning of the incoming strike, allowing U.S. troops to shelter in bunkers and ride out the storm. The advanced warning reportedly included information from Iraq, which passed along news of the imminent attack that it had received from Iran, as well as notification from the United States' own early-warning systems, such as radars and satellite surveillance.
> 
> The nature of Iran's attack, the target set, the relatively limited number of missiles (despite Tehran's vast ballistic missile arsenal) and its subsequent signals to the United States that it intends to stand down all suggest that Tehran simply wanted to send a powerful message to the United States while minimizing the risk of a significant U.S. counterstrike. Of course, the Iranian operation could have incited a furious U.S. response if it had killed American soldiers, but Tehran made it abundantly clear that it wanted to make a show of its retaliation without touching off an outright war.
> 
> The Upshot
> 
> *The September 2019 attack on Saudi Arabia's Abqaiq and Khurais oil facilities, as well as the assault on Ayn al-Asad, illustrate how Iran retains potent capabilities even if its conventional military technology remains woefully outdated.* *Tehran's efforts to bolster its asymmetric capabilities in recent decades by investing in militias and weapons like cruise and ballistic missiles ensure that it retains the ability to inflict considerable damage on many in the region, even an adversary as powerful as the United States. This, coupled with Iran's strategic geographic proximity to critical energy fields and global energy supply lines, gives the country a great deal of leverage in both deterring and coercing its adversaries.*



Qiam-1 is being proven to be a unreliable missile. It was used in Kurdistan attack (multiple failed, ISIS attack multiple failed, 2nd ISIS attack, and Irbil attack same result).

I think IRGC will discontinue it, if it hasn’t already. Plus it is a liquid fuel. A next generation Fateh can probably be designed to carry a similar warhead to similar distance.

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## TruthHurtz

925boy said:


> He also called me Persian and i an 0% Persian.





TheImmortal said:


> Qiam-1 is being proven to be a unreliable missile. It was used in Kurdistan attack (multiple failed, ISIS attack multiple failed, 2nd ISIS attack, and Irbil attack same result).
> 
> I think IRGC will discontinue it, if it hasn’t already. Plus it is a liquid fuel. A next generation Fateh can probably be designed to carry a similar warhead to similar distance.



It's an old platform receiving guidance upgrades. It's an accurate missile but its age shows due to years in storage. That's why Iran is trying to get rid of them with these strikes and transferring them to Houthis. Iran demonstrated to the US that even its older missiles can fvck their day up, and this has been acknowledged by US officials.

Iran is moving away from Scud based missiles into more indigeneous platforms like Fateh-series, Sejill and Khorramshahr. Sejill development slowed down due to Tehrani's death but has picked up recently as it was shown off during the recent parades. Shahab-3 is a reliable platform and makes sense for Iran's underground facilities given their longer preparation times.

Dezful can put more payload down at longer distances with decreased launch preparation time. And its already been mass produced. IRGC has put so much trust in the platform that they even designed an 8x8 TEL to carry it.

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## TheImmortal

TruthHurtz said:


> It's an old platform receiving guidance upgrades. It's an accurate missile but its age shows due to years in storage. That's why Iran is trying to get rid of them with these strikes and transferring them to Houthis. Iran demonstrated to the US that even its older missiles can fvck their day up, and this has been acknowledged by US officials.
> 
> Iran is moving away from Scud based missiles into more indigeneous platforms like Fateh-series, Sejill and Khorramshahr. Sejill development slowed down due to Tehrani's death but has picked up recently as it was shown off during the recent parades. Shahab-3 is a reliable platform and makes sense for Iran's underground facilities given their longer preparation times.
> 
> Dezful can put more payload down at longer distances with decreased launch preparation time. And its already been mass produced. IRGC has put so much trust in the platform that they even designed an 8x8 TEL to carry it.



Sejill was not stopped because of Tehrani’s death it was stopped because the platform was too expensive. It is a luxury weapon used to target Israel. It’s raw material needed became more and more difficult to acquire under sanctions in good quality thus drove the price of the missile higher.

Khorramshahr is a more cost efficient platform and will likely be produced in greater numbers than Sejil which likely has low production numbers if it is still in production.

It hasn’t been tested in a long time.


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## yavar

11 US troops were injured in Iran missile attack despite Pentagon initially saying there were no casualties
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/16/politics/service-members-injured-iran-strike/index.html

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## Raghfarm007

Hahahahahaahaa....hay where is Immortal with his claims of cement warheads??!!!!

First they said they would retaliate hard and fast, and they didnt, then they said that there was no significant damage, which turned out to be a lie, and now their casulty figures turned out o be a lie.... who besides the brainwashed and the braindead are surprised??

Little by little the truth comes out and the amazing military power of Iran becomes clear.

There is a reason why Trump had to back down from his threats to retaliate....
Thanks to Trump, Irans military has been lifted to super power states.

New video of Iraqis revenge attacks;

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## mohsen

skyshadow said:


> *An informed IRGC source told IranViewer: Islamic Revolution Guard Corps has filmed the missile strike operation against Ain AlAssad Airbase housing American forces in Iraq using drones.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217866675166597122*


IRGC wont even connect to such media let alone giving exclusive information.

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## TheImmortal

Raghfarm007 said:


> Hahahahahaahaa....hay where is Immortal with his claims of cement warheads??!!!!
> 
> First they said they would retaliate hard and fast, and they didnt, then they said that there was no significant damage, which turned out to be a lie, and now their casulty figures turned out o be a lie.... who besides the brainwashed and the braindead are surprised??
> 
> Little by little the truth comes out and the amazing military power of Iran becomes clear.
> 
> There is a reason why Trump had to back down from his threats to retaliate....
> Thanks to Trump, Irans military has been lifted to super power states.
> 
> New video of Iraqis revenge attacks;



1. I said some missiles might have not had a warhead. Not a “cement warhead”

2. Casualty numbers are still zero. Yesterday I noted some soldiers experienced concussion symptoms from shockwaves.

I swear the Iranian fanboys here are almost as bad as the Pakistani fanboys.

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## PeeD

Please avoid spreading misinformation that Sejil was discontinued. Sejil has a specialized role while Ghadr series is Iran's long range "bread and butter".

As quasi ballistic missile Fatah family has lower speed and hence is inherently easier and better to guide.
Qiam is a pure MaRVed ballistic missile.
It's accuracy and higher impulse at impact are for example better against hardened targets and to damage runways more severely.
CEP is claimed to be 10 meters for Qiam while lower for lastest Fateh.

Mach 2,5-3 would be impact speeds of Fateh series while Qiam is at least 3,5 and may reach 4, which makes a great kinetic difference in terms of shockwave.

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## Blue In Green

Arminkh said:


> It is not possible to hide death but is possible to have a change cause or location of death. Some say that is what is happening .



It's plausbile,


PeeD said:


> Please avoid spreading misinformation that Sejil was discontinued. Sejil has a specialized role while Ghadr series is Iran's long range "bread and butter".
> 
> As quasi ballistic missile Fatah family has lower speed and hence is inherently easier and better to guide.
> Qiam is a pure MaRVed ballistic missile.
> It's accuracy and higher impulse at impact are for example better against hardened targets and to damage runways more severely.
> CEP is claimed to be 10 meters for Qiam while lower for lastest Fateh.
> 
> Mach 2,5-3 would be impact speeds of Fateh series while Qiam is at least 3,5 and may reach 4, which makes a great kinetic difference in terms of shockwave.



Hey PeeD had a quick question(s) about the Dezful missile and the Iranian missile forces in general.

Dezful has a 1,000km range with a 1,000lbs (or around that weight) FAE warhead which means this missile is extremely destructive and the missile itself is a bit longer and larger (correct me if I'm wrong) than the other Fatehs. What I wanted to know is would Iran consider building a substantial number of Dezfuls and investing in longer range variants of the Fateh going into the future given just how impressive and seemingly reliable the Fateh line of missiles has matured into? Could we see Iran increase the production of Fatehs going into this new decade considering the tense geo-political arena and spectre of Trump's possible re-election?

What is the purpose of the Dezful exactly, I'm under the impression that this missile is for high value targets Iran wants to completely destroy without question. Since a 1,000lb FAE bomb has such insane amounts of energy.

Also do you think the 2,000 BM estimate of the Pentagon is accurate?-- Personally I like to believe Iran's stockpile of missiles is truly not known to anyone but those in Iran meant to know and that stockpile is considerably larger than what many might think.

And lastly, the Iranian strike was indeed quite successful then?

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## PeeD

2000 is a joke considering the number of OSINT known Iranian missile bases and they know it.

Dezfuls purpose is easy to explain: Iran can cost effectivly strike northern Israel and provide fire support for Hezbollah.

Fateh family future is a cost issue: what's the difference between a 300km Fatah and a 1000km Dezful? If the difference is justifiable and small enough, based can be stationed deeper into Iranian heartland, fire more securely.

Thermobaric warhead allows a range of 1000km for such a small missile. But it's not effective against hardened targets.

Fatah series of today allows to neutralise any target with a weapon that costs probably well under $ 100k. This has revolutionary effects on future warfare. But compared to the Qiam it has limited shelf life of 15-20 years.

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> 2000 is a joke considering the number of OSINT known Iranian missile bases and they know it.
> 
> Dezfuls purpose is easy to explain: Iran can cost effectivly strike northern Israel and provide fire support for Hezbollah.
> 
> Fateh family future is a cost issue: what's the difference between a 300km Fatah and a 1000km Dezful? If the difference is justifiable and small enough, based can be stationed deeper into Iranian heartland, fire more securely.
> 
> Thermobaric warhead allows a range of 1000km for such a small missile. But it's not effective against hardened targets.
> 
> Fatah series of today allows to neutralise any target with a weapon that costs probably well under $ 100k. This has revolutionary effects on future warfare. But compared to the Qiam it has limited shelf life of 15-20 years.



Thanks for the timely response!!

That being said, what do personally think the actual number of Iran's Ballistic missiles is? Rough estimate obviously for security and intelligence reasons, or you don't have to say if you don't feel comfortable about it. 

I'm currently thinking the number of Iran's BM's is around the 3,000 and up range or possibly more.

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## GWXP

Pentagon estimates 2000 ballistic missiles....I read it in Washington Post and Fox News.

But except these 2000 missiles, Iran might have thousands of Zelzal rockets which could be used as decoys for Patriot air defenses.

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## PeeD

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Thanks for the timely response!!
> 
> That being said, what do personally think the actual number of Iran's Ballistic missiles is? Rough estimate obviously for security and intelligence reasons, or you don't have to say if you don't feel comfortable about it.
> 
> I'm currently thinking the number of Iran's BM's is around the 3,000 and up range or possibly more.



I don't talk about numbers but General Hajizadehs post strike statements are credible: Plans to counter a possible U.S retaliation with several hundred (~200) on that night and further plans for a limited skirmish of 3-7 days with several thousands (2000-3000).
With 28 major U.S bases in the region that would be about 10 missiles per base on that night with same damage as on ain al-assad and a total of 100 per base within ~4-5 days.

This gives an idea of the size of the whole arsenal and the destruction a 10 times larger strike as on ain al-assad would have caused.

Now one can guess what portion of the strategic arsenal would be used in a limited skirmish, 50%? 30%? 10%? 5%?

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## Hack-Hook

GWXP said:


> Pentagon estimates 2000 ballistic missiles....I read it in Washington Post and Fox News.
> 
> But except these 2000 missiles, Iran might have thousands of Zelzal rockets which could be used as decoys for Patriot air defenses.


I have doubt about Zelda its several years that we are upgrading those missiles with guidance system.


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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Please avoid spreading misinformation that Sejil was discontinued. Sejil has a specialized role while Ghadr series is Iran's long range "bread and butter".
> 
> As quasi ballistic missile Fatah family has lower speed and hence is inherently easier and better to guide.
> Qiam is a pure MaRVed ballistic missile.
> It's accuracy and higher impulse at impact are for example better against hardened targets and to damage runways more severely.
> CEP is claimed to be 10 meters for Qiam while lower for lastest Fateh.
> 
> Mach 2,5-3 would be impact speeds of Fateh series while Qiam is at least 3,5 and may reach 4, which makes a great kinetic difference in terms of shockwave.



No proof Sejill is still in production or it ever reach major mass production. No Iranians missile base photo shows any Sejil (maybe silo based at this point) and there hasn’t been a live test of Sejil-2 since 2010 (I believe). In meantime Fateh, Ghadr series have all had more tests and new generation versions introduced.

And this board spreads more rumors and propaganda then anywhere on the internet. The information I provided comes from arms control analysts. Sejil-2 was an Iranian design using different raw materials (more expensive) than Ghadr (Scud based) missiles.

So it’s no secret that Sejil-2 was not built in large numbers. It’s more common sense.

But I caution you from turning into the next @yavar who at one point was claiming he had “secret info” when he gave information while on PDF and back when IMF was still around.


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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218239721601687555
*soooo we have to wait at least another weak for them to get the news that there are dead soldiers too, its just funny i can not help it not to laugh.

*


*Pentagon leaders didn't know US troops were injured in Iran's missile attack until a week later*


"This idea that there was an effort to de-emphasize injuries for some sort of amorphous political agenda doesn't hold water," the spokesman said, according to Reuters.


*https://www.businessinsider.com/pen...oops-injured-after-iran-missile-attack-2020-1*



*من فکر میکنم برای چهلم حاج قاسم ما میتونیم انتظار انتشار تصاویر پهپادی رو داشته باشیم شما چی فکر میکنید ؟ اگر پایگاه خالی از سیستم های پدافندی بوده باشه همونطور که خیلیا دارن میگن پس احتمال حضور پهپاد های سپاه به شدت افزایش پیدا میکنه*

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## Draco.IMF

For all the doubters and haters

An IRGC drone filmed the whole event, maybe we will see it in few days, weeks, years...who knows

I personally doubt we will see it very soon, I think IRGC holds the "evidence" back as leverage

But rest assured, this was theyr most important base and they were humiliated

And Iran just used its first course regarding its "military capabilities", just a slap..

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> No proof Sejill is still in production or it ever reach major mass production. No Iranians missile base photo shows any Sejil (maybe silo based at this point) and there hasn’t been a live test of Sejil-2 since 2010 (I believe). In meantime Fateh, Ghadr series have all had more tests and new generation versions introduced.
> 
> And this board spreads more rumors and propaganda then anywhere on the internet. The information I provided comes from arms control analysts. Sejil-2 was an Iranian design using different raw materials (more expensive) than Ghadr (Scud based) missiles.
> 
> So it’s no secret that Sejil-2 was not built in large numbers. It’s more common sense.
> 
> But I caution you from turning into the next @yavar who at one point was claiming he had “secret info” when he gave information while on PDF and back when IMF was still around.



Your arms control analyst here is IISS, and if I'm not mistaken, the guy behind that claim recently estimated Fatehs on ain al-assad to have a CEP of 100m... this man lives in the past.

I have credible open source information on Sejil being operational, but no need to share it here.

Yavar has insider knowledge, someone from the information side. I'm a technical analyst with good confidence on Iranian capabilities compared to IISS kind guys.

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## DoubleYouSee

Draco.IMF said:


> For all the doubters and haters
> 
> An IRGC drone filmed the whole event, maybe we will see it in few days, weeks, years...who knows
> 
> I personally doubt we will see it very soon, I think IRGC holds the "evidence" back as leverage
> 
> But rest assured, this was theyr most important base and they were humiliated
> 
> And Iran just used its first course regarding its "military capabilities", just a slap..


We've seen the impact.....is it important to see the videos of impact?!


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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> I don't talk about numbers but General Hajizadehs post strike statements are credible: Plans to counter a possible U.S retaliation with several hundred (~200) on that night and further plans for a limited skirmish of 3-7 days with several thousands (2000-3000).
> With 28 major U.S bases in the region that would be about 10 missiles per base on that night with same damage as on ain al-assad and a total of 100 per base within ~4-5 days.
> 
> This gives an idea of the size of the whole arsenal and the destruction a 10 times larger strike as on ain al-assad would have caused.
> 
> Now one can guess what portion of the strategic arsenal would be used in a limited skirmish, 50%? 30%? 10%? 5%?



That is truly terrifying, the sheer amount of damage that many BM's could do is insane.

Thank you again for your input!!



DoubleYouSee said:


> We've seen the impact.....is it important to see the videos of impact?!



I'm assuming the videos can shed more light on what was destroyed so we can get better closure on the entire event.

We will be able to discern for ourselves who was telling the truth and who was fudging the numbers.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Your arms control analyst here is IISS, and if I'm not mistaken, the guy behind that claim recently estimated Fatehs on ain al-assad to have a CEP of 100m... this man lives in the past.
> 
> I have credible open source information on Sejil being operational, but no need to share it here.
> 
> Yavar has insider knowledge, someone from the information side. I'm a technical analyst with good confidence on Iranian capabilities compared to IISS kind guys.



Again you are moving the goalposts and twisting my words and that same time changing your own. It’s a shame really.

Nobody said that Sejil was “not operational”, I merely said it was likely not built in enough numbers (more of a strategic weapon) and if never reached major serial mass production. I wouldn’t be surprised if less than 100 Sejil exist. 

If you look at Sejil development from Ashura to Sejill to Sejil 2 it was all in rapid succession of 3 years (2006-2008) then POOF nothing heard of ever again. No Sejil 3 no newer generation. Iran’s solid fuel program has moved into a different direction based on Shahrud missile facility photos.

And no my source(s) was not IISS, but thank you for assuming. I been following Iran’s missile development since 2000, so I know how to filter propaganda sources. Sejill disappearance is well known to many people who followed after its unveiling.

And if you believe Yavar has “insider” information (I cant count how many times his “predictions” were wrong on IMF to the point he was almost a pro-Iran version of Babak) then that is sad. I am disappointed as I felt you were highly knowledgeable person (and still are in certain fields). 

But in the past few weeks I am starting to see you move more towards non-biased viewpoints that borderline fanboyism.

But let’s agree to disagree on this matter. Time will tell who is right.

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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> 1. I said some missiles might have not had a warhead. Not a “cement warhead”
> 
> 2. Casualty numbers are still zero. Yesterday I noted some soldiers experienced concussion symptoms from shockwaves.
> 
> I swear the Iranian fanboys here are almost as bad as the Pakistani fan


https://media.khabaronline.ir/d/2020/01/16/0/5328037.mp4
see and listen they have ziro right news like yourself .their soldiers vanish from earth by ET FROM AL-ASAD BASE


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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Again you are moving the goalposts and twisting my words and that same time changing your own. It’s a shame really.
> 
> Nobody said that Sejil was “not operational”, I merely said it was likely not built in enough numbers (more of a strategic weapon) and if never reached major serial mass production. I wouldn’t be surprised if less than 100 Sejil exist.
> 
> If you look at Sejil development from Ashura to Sejill to Sejil 2 it was all in rapid succession of 3 years (2006-2008) then POOF nothing heard of ever again. No Sejil 3 no newer generation. Iran’s solid fuel program has moved into a different direction based on Shahrud missile facility photos.
> 
> And no my source(s) was not IISS, but thank you for assuming. I been following Iran’s missile development since 2000, so I know how to filter propaganda sources. Sejill disappearance is well known to many people who followed after its unveiling.
> 
> And if you believe Yavar has “insider” information (I cant count how many times his “predictions” were wrong on IMF to the point he was almost a pro-Iran version of Babak) then that is sad. I am disappointed as I felt you were highly knowledgeable person (and still are in certain fields).
> 
> But in the past few weeks I am starting to see you move more towards non-biased viewpoints that borderline fanboyism.
> 
> But let’s agree to disagree on this matter. Time will tell who is right.



Generally ground crews for liquid missiles must train regulary to retain their skills. Sejil-like missiles are much easier to handle with less training requirements.

Sejil is a time critical strike asset, probably mainly meant to attack enemy active defenses. Hence yes, it's numbers are naturally lower than Iran's liquid workhorses. But the rumour about Iran's inability to produce them started with IISS IIRC.

Whether Yavars info is legit or mixed with misinformation is for anybody to judge. I'm a tech. analyst, not a insider.

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## skyshadow

really really big big news for Iran missile power with *the new Arash space engines* which until last year (2019) only was built by US alone but now Iran ( by successfully testing its first* Arash* engine in 2019 ) is the second power to build that kind of engines.


@PeeD



*Iran achieves knowledge of building space engines: ISRC head*










He said the new achievement includes the design and development of various versions of “Arash space engine” the first sample of which was tested successfully late 2019.


“Arash space engine will be put in the orbital transfer system to help thrust satellites from the low orbit into the high orbit.”



https://en.mehrnews.com/news/154663/Iran-achieves-knowledge-of-building-space-engines-ISRC-head

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## GWXP

I think it is a small engine for satellites, not SLV engine

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## skyshadow

GWXP said:


> I think it is a small engine for satellites, not SLV engine


you mean its some kind of Spacecraft propulsion engine?



GWXP said:


> I think it is a small engine for satellites, not SLV engine


i think you are right as it say that Arash *will be put in the orbital transfer system*

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## Ich

Isnt it to big for a Sat? If the thinest cables in that pic are only 1 cm thick, then the complete Engine is bigger than 3 meter.


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## PeeD

Relevant to this thread:



PeeD said:


> Now two technical details on these two ABM systems and the two types of Iranian missiles used in the operation:
> 
> Patriot PAC-3 is the system able to engage both.
> 
> THAAD is the system able to engage the Qiam-2 when it is outside the atmosphere.
> 
> THAAD can't engagement Fateh series relaiably because these gliders operate in upper atmospheric layers, at which the unshrouded non-aerodynamic IIR seeker of the THAAD can't be used due to the dynamic pressure and thermal issues.
> However it should perform much better than the PAC-3 against Qiam series when they are still outside the atmosphere. In that case it can protect a wider area with reasonable PK. Here Qiam may only have decoys as defensive measure.
> 
> The PAC-3 can engage both but it's PK and protected area can be severely limited if Iran's MaRV and terminally guided missiles do random F-pole energy bleeding manouvers. The kinematic disadvantage such endo-atmispheric interceptors already have is only increased when F-pole manouvers are performed.
> The vertical strike trajectory of the Qiam creates further problems for interception.
> 
> Do Iranian missiles such evasive manouvers? Unknown, but technically well possible. Result for PAC-3 would be that it becomes a point-defense ABM system that may be able to protect as base like ain al-assad with a PK that makes any kind of economic sense.
> 
> A system like the THAAD and it's incredibly expensive X-band large aperture AESA forbid it to be available in sufficient numbers, even for the U.S defence budget.


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## skyshadow

Ich said:


> Isnt it to big for a Sat? If the thinest cables in that pic are only 1 cm thick, then the complete Engine is bigger than 3 meter.



they said its for bigger satellites ones that are placed in high orbite

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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> they said its for bigger satellites ones that are placed in high orbite





Ich said:


> Isnt it to big for a Sat? If the thinest cables in that pic are only 1 cm thick, then the complete Engine is bigger than 3 meter.


that's an example of modern journalism . the engine in the photo is a cryo engine .certainly not an engine for satellite. That belong to a powerful SLV .

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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> that's an example of modern journalism . the engine in the photo is a cryo engine .certainly not an engine for satellite. That belong to a powerful SLV .


and the article it self dose not say if the engine is a SLV engine or some type of Spacecraft propulsion engine


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## Ich

Well, thats the main problem with journalism all over the world...


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## Raghfarm007

> جالب است بدانیم در این عملیات سپاه پاسداران از کلاهک‌های پلاسمایی برای موشک‌های خود استفاده کرد که جاذب امواج راداری بوده و آمریکایی‌های قادر به رهگیری آنها نیستند. چه اینکه در طول این عملیات آمریکایی‌‌ها حتی یک تیر هم به سمت موشک‌های ایرانی شلیک نکردند.



There is a report in Tasnim news agency saying that Plasma warheads were used, which absorb radar waves and therefore can not be tracked. Thus why their Patriots didnt even react.

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...-مهم-bbc-در-گزارش-6-دقیقه-ای-درباره-عین-الاسد

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218264561385713665

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218811839687135232

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## Blue In Green

@PeeD @Messerschmitt 

Would it be logical to assume Iran also has airburst warheads that can be fitted on to existing Fateh missiles? 

Seems like a no-brainer but I wanted to get your guy's thoughts on it.

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## Messerschmitt



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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> It really doesn't matter if there were or weren't any casualties because Iran's Missile Strikes did exactly what they were meant to do!!!
> 
> The main goal of the operation was to prove the accuracy of Iranian missiles to the deluded fools in this U.S. administration that thought Iranian weapons were just photoshopped mockups and Iran did just that with 100% success rate!
> 
> And now the U.S. knows that at the very least every base they have within 700km of Iranian Soil is not only within range of Iranian cruise missiles but is also within range of Iranian Tactical Ballistic missiles that have the accuracy to hit targets as small as Aircraft bunkers so a war with Iran will not be like any war they have fought before because unlike any enemy they have fought since WW2 Iran does have the capability to retaliate with deadly accuracy and at sufficient ranges!
> 
> So how many casualties US did or didn't have in this very limited strike really doesn't matter the point was to show what could happen if there is a full blown conflict and Iran did just that and at the end of the day U.S. miliitary and even the U.S. media was in Aww of the accuracy of Iranian missiles!



U.S population does think Iran striked empty fields somewhere. Their mass media or sites like the warzone never reported to the U.S public what really happend.
So their people still think Iran is unable and the U.S has complete superiority...

The big picture is: Iran has now set the clock with it's unlimited enrichment.
At some point the U.S needs to stop Iran or Iran will become a de facto latent nuclear power.
So economic siege scenario is over.
Iran needed to display its firepower in this situation, also to Israel.

Now at least their generals are aware of Iran's capability and can assets if there is a reasonable chance to successfully take out Iran's nuclear power, which is approaching fast.

We may see those missiles sooner and in higher numbers than we may think.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> U.S population does think Iran striked empty fields somewhere. Their mass media or sites like the warzone never reported to the U.S public what really happend.
> So their people still think Iran is unable and the U.S has complete superiority...
> 
> The big picture is: Iran has now set the clock with it's unlimited enrichment.
> At some point the U.S needs to stop Iran or Iran will become a de facto latent nuclear power.
> So economic siege scenario is over.
> Iran needed to display its firepower in this situation, also to Israel.
> 
> Now at least their generals are aware of Iran's capability and can assets if there is a reasonable chance to successfully take out Iran's nuclear power, which is approaching fast.
> 
> We may see those missiles sooner and in higher numbers than we may think.



Zarif just said if Europeans go ahead with sanctions Iran will leave NPT so i think you are right we may see more missiles soon.


*Iran's foreign minister Mohammad Javad Zarif warned that the country would leave the five-decade international treaty that prevents that spread of atomic weapons if its alleged violations of the 2015 nuclear deal were brought before the United Nations Security Council.*
*


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...reaty-missile-non-proliferation-a9291696.html*

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## Sina-1

New generation sejil with marv to be unveiled soon

https://www.mizanonline.com/fa/news/135347/نسل-جدید-موشک‌های-دوربرد-سجیل-به‌زودی-تحویل-سپاه-می‌شوندتحویل-موشک-عماد-سال-آینده


Edit: old news. ThAnks to @skyshadow to pointing it out!

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## Shams313

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218264561385713665
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218811839687135232



Misstake????



Sina-1 said:


> New generation sejil with marv to be unveiled soon
> 
> https://www.mizanonline.com/fa/news/135347/نسل-جدید-موشک‌های-دوربرد-سجیل-به‌زودی-تحویل-سپاه-می‌شوندتحویل-موشک-عماد-سال-آینده


Is that gonna be a revamped one or totally new gen with longer range....???


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## Sina-1

Shams313 said:


> Misstake????
> 
> 
> Is that gonna be a revamped one or totally new gen with longer range....???


The most logical explanation is that sejil has undergone upgrades continuously but not used as an political instrument. Now they are simply showing some of the advancements they have hid for the public. It’s no coincidence they are displaying sejil upgrades now amid increased tensions.

the same thing goes for the space launchers. They have never stopped anything. Only chosen not to publicly show it... of course this is my speculations and understanding of the situation.


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## Websorber

*Iran Likely To Field Nuclear ICBM In 2 Years*
*https://breakingdefense.com/2020/01...nuclear-icbm-in-2-years-israeli-intelligence/*

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## skyshadow

Sina-1 said:


> New generation sejil with marv to be unveiled soon
> 
> https://www.mizanonline.com/fa/news/135347/نسل-جدید-موشک‌های-دوربرد-سجیل-به‌زودی-تحویل-سپاه-می‌شوندتحویل-موشک-عماد-سال-آینده


sorry brother its 5 years old *26 بهمن 1394, *do not worry about it it happens to me a lot that's why i always check the date on them first.

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## Sina-1

skyshadow said:


> sorry brother its 5 years old *26 بهمن 1394, *do not worry about it it happens to me a lot that's why i always check the date on them first.


Thank you for correcting me. I will edit
My post!

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> Zarif just said if Europeans go ahead with sanctions Iran will leave NPT so i think you are right we may see more missiles soon.
> 
> 
> *Iran's foreign minister Mohammad Javad Zarif warned that the country would leave the five-decade international treaty that prevents that spread of atomic weapons if its alleged violations of the 2015 nuclear deal were brought before the United Nations Security Council.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...reaty-missile-non-proliferation-a9291696.html*



All talk. Iran won’t leave NPT. 



Websorber said:


> *Iran Likely To Field Nuclear ICBM In 2 Years*
> *https://breakingdefense.com/2020/01...nuclear-icbm-in-2-years-israeli-intelligence/*



Israel has been saying this since 1998

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> All talk. Iran won’t leave NPT.
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has been saying this since 1998



we have wait and see what happens with Europeans first with their snapback sanctions


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## PeeD

Irans claim of a 700-800km AshBM was uprated to a AshBM with 2000km range.

That report of a MaRVed Sejil is the key to such a capability: The Sejil series is the only long range missile that can be launched on demand. It can basically stay on alert for months and launch within 5 minutes.
This a key system feature for a AshBM.

The aircraft carrier mock-up has been rebuilt and is ready to be a target for a AshBM this time. In best case against a MaRVed Sejil.

Sejil series is in some ways already obsolete anyway: It was one of the last Iranian solid fuel missiles to use steel casing. A next generation long range solid fuel missile would certainly be smaller by using a Zolfaghar-like filament composite casing.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> Irans claim of a 700-800km AshBM was uprated to a AshBM with 2000km range.
> 
> That report of a MaRVed Sejil is the key to such a capability: The Sejil series is the only long range missile that can be launched on demand. It can basically stay on alert for months and launch within 5 minutes.
> This a key system feature for a AshBM.
> 
> The aircraft carrier mock-up has been rebuilt and is ready to be a target for a AshBM this time. In best case against a MaRVed Sejil.
> 
> Sejil series is in some ways already obsolete anyway: It was one of the last Iranian solid fuel missiles to use steel casing. A next generation long range solid fuel missile would certainly be smaller by using a Zolfaghar-like filament composite casing.



what do you think of a Sejil with Dezful missile casing material ? do you think it would be a 4000 km range Sejil ?

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## Philosopher

A year or so old but relevant. I had not realised it uses E/O guidance:

Fajr-4C Rocket with EO guidance.

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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> All talk. Iran won’t leave NPT.
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has been saying this since 1998


u again what face you have its sang e pa ghazvin excuse me he wentaway bic of you oh ET send massage usa girls who have braine dameg become 34 2 week after will 50 asnd .....


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## Messerschmitt

ashool said:


> u again what face you have its sang e pa ghazvin excuse me he wentaway bic of you oh ET send massage usa girls who have braine dameg become 34 2 week after will 50 asnd .....


What are you trying to express, my friend?

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## Ich

Messerschmitt said:


> What are you trying to express, my friend?



Sounds like descriping the differences in culture things


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## skyshadow

*
3 separate guided projectiles in one warhead this will give any AD system a good headache that means if the AD shoots 2 interceptors for one warhead in a split second it has to shoot 6 more interceptors*

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## Philosopher

^

Those are from almost 8 years ago, just imagine what Iran has today.

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## skyshadow

Philosopher. said:


> ^
> 
> Those are from almost 8 years ago, just imagine what Iran has today.



hope we see some soon

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## sha ah

Iran has to unveil a Khorramshahr missile with a range of 3000-4000 km to show the EU that it is serious and means business. If the EU wants to sanction Iran then why should Iran care about their sensitivities ? Pakistan has it, India has it, Israel has it, why not Iran ? Who cares, they'll get used to it eventually, just make them sign a non aggression pact, that's all if they promise not to interfere in the region and in Iran's internal affairs. That's all. 



PeeD said:


> Irans claim of a 700-800km AshBM was uprated to a AshBM with 2000km range.
> 
> That report of a MaRVed Sejil is the key to such a capability: The Sejil series is the only long range missile that can be launched on demand. It can basically stay on alert for months and launch within 5 minutes.
> This a key system feature for a AshBM.
> 
> The aircraft carrier mock-up has been rebuilt and is ready to be a target for a AshBM this time. In best case against a MaRVed Sejil.
> 
> Sejil series is in some ways already obsolete anyway: It was one of the last Iranian solid fuel missiles to use steel casing. A next generation long range solid fuel missile would certainly be smaller by using a Zolfaghar-like filament composite casing.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1220642641592774656

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1220761905645735937

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## yavar

Pentagon has revealed 34 U.S. troops suffered traumatic brain injuries in Iran IRGC ballistic missiles strike in Iraq bases https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/24/us-soldiers-iran-traumatic-brain-injury-pentagon

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## ashool

Messerschmitt said:


> What are you trying to express, my friend?


he said no dameg on usa soldiers but its day by day increased first no after 2 day 11 after 2 week 34 and ...but some dud say no daMEGE WHAT ???!!!

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## Hack-Hook

ashool said:


> he said no dameg on usa soldiers but its day by day increased first no after 2 day 11 after 2 week 34 and ...but some dud say no daMEGE WHAT ???!!!


Well in a manner he is right that's called injury not damage .


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## DoubleYouSee

ashool said:


> he said no dameg on usa soldiers but its day by day increased first no after 2 day 11 after 2 week 34 and ...but some dud say no daMEGE WHAT ???!!!


I think it's a technic to decrease the importance of what IRGC has done.....look at the first day press that were talking most of the missile miss their targets..and then we found out the accuracy...usa is a super power(as theirself belive)so they are winner in any war by default......nobody can hit their army.........

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## sha ah

If I had to bet on it, I would say that there were definitely US deaths from Iran's missile strikes. Trump's excuse will be that he prevented a war and he didn't want to give Iran the satisfaction / propaganda points or some other rubbish.

PS: I want to marry that Syrian girl, she's beautiful indeed


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1220962170831278081

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217330436810006529

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## PeeD

GWXP said:


> I doubt that Fateh costs 100K$
> 
> I read that Iskander missile costs around 3mln$ for Russian defense ministry
> 
> Chinese missiles similar to Fateh were sold at 1.5mln$ per unit to Turkey in 2000s



Missle tech. is very exclusive tech. those who sell it make great profits because there afe only few. Turkey got tech-transfer with their deal with China and have still not managed to build something in Irans 2000's vintage Fateh-110 gen-2.

Sardar Hajizadeh made statements on the internal IRGC costs for their missiles.
Most expensive one is $400k, long range $200k.

Fateh-110 gen-1 to 4 are steel casing missiles without TVC or separating RV.
Hence if we assume that a LR Ghadr costs $200k, then it is reasonable to assume a tactical Fateh-110 costs around 100k.

Now does a MaRVed Sejil cost that max. 400k or a ordinary or MaRVed Khorramshahr? Is the Ghadr the standard LR missile or was it replaced by MaRVed Emad?

Building mountain missile bases are extremly expensive and that many Iran has, it would cost 10s of billions.
That's why the IRGC created the Khatam ol Anbia company very early on: to be able to create that capability which would otherwise be impossible with it's budget.

Conclusion: you can't explain these dynamics buy capitalist market rules. These are strategic capabilities, a matter of life and death for Iran.

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## scimitar19

@PeeD 


PeeD said:


> Sardar Hajizadeh made statements on the internal IRGC costs for their missiles.
> Most expensive one is $400k, long range $200k.
> 
> Fateh-110 gen-1 to 4 are steel casing missiles without TVC or separating RV.
> Hence if we assume that a LR Ghadr costs $200k, then it is reasonable to assume a tactical Fateh-110 costs around 100k.



So basically IRGC "donated" around 1.5 million $ to US soldiers for their 34 brain damaged soldiers. Hopefully that will cover the treatment since I heard health care in the US is very expensive. 



PeeD said:


> Building mountain missile bases are extremly expensive and that many Iran has, it would cost 10s of billions.
> That's why the IRGC created the Khatam ol Anbia company very early on: to be able to create that capability which would otherwise be impossible with it's budget.
> 
> Conclusion: you can't explain these dynamics buy capitalist market rules. These are strategic capabilities, a matter of life and death for Iran.



As I have understood the Khatam ol Anbia company is the volunteering construction company that was using only basic materials and soldiers to dig tunnels underground without spending a penny on their engineers and material such as fuel cement gravel and so on? And for missiles they still have to buy it using money since it requires a more proficient materials and energy consuming process from raw material to final product?

In hypothetical scenario where iranians would surrender their underground bases to US forces and allowed them to use against Russians and Chinese, missile retaliatory attack against US forces stationed inside these bases if such one was to be executed by Russians or Chinese would not be possible! I'm not so sure the Russians and Chinese are aware how much it is important for them to have strong and powerful Iranian state. If Iran falls into the hands of Zionist as Nasrallah has stated it is pretty much game over for both Chinese and Russians.

This missile attack against US bases just shows how much vulnerable their assets are when in the open and going for the underground plan was proven to be a major advantage.


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## DoubleYouSee

Exactly you said what i think........and wish you a good marriage..........


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## skyshadow



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## Ich

skyshadow said:


>














And a lot more you can find here

https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/dod_strategic_spectrum_plan_nov2007.pdf

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## ashool

Hack-Hook said:


> Well in a manner he is right that's called injury not damage .


im speaking about all base soldiers r in base so it became damege they say no missile heat l asad they have no pass to come to iraq so deported


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## skyshadow

*@PeeD


BREAKING (unconfirmed): Iran's Channel 4 state TV just said that Iran is working on 2 new SLVs: "Sarir" SLV with a uniform 2.4 metre (!) diameter. "Soroush" SLV with 4 metre (!) diameter, for sending satellites into GEO. It also mentioned that the Safir SLV would be retired.

*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221841338880139264

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> *@PeeD
> 
> 
> BREAKING (unconfirmed): Iran's Channel 4 state TV just said that Iran is working on 2 new SLVs: "Sarir" SLV with a uniform 2.4 metre (!) diameter. "Soroush" SLV with 4 metre (!) diameter, for sending satellites into GEO. It also mentioned that the Safir SLV would be retired.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221841338880139264



Considering that Safir was a weak SLV (basically a converted sounding rocket) and Simorgh was still way too weak as well. Both SLVs were unreliable based on success rate. Also one was based on 2007 technology another 2010.

So for Iran to spend 10 years building two new SLVs and they still aren’t ready? I would expect at least Sarir to be ready by now.

Disappointing progress thus far in the space program given Iran’s advanced knowledge in missile industry.

Also what happened to Qalnoos (spelling?) which was supposed to be the next SLV in line? Was it scrapped or another name change?


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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> Considering that Safir was a weak SLV (basically a converted sounding rocket) and Simorgh was still way too weak as well. Both SLVs were unreliable based on success rate. Also one was based on 2007 technology another 2010.
> 
> So for Iran to spend 10 years building two new SLVs and they still aren’t ready? I would expect at least Sarir to be ready by now.
> 
> Disappointing progress thus far in the space program given Iran’s advanced knowledge in missile industry.
> 
> Also what happened to Qalnoos (spelling?) which was supposed to be the next SLV in line? Was it scrapped or another name change?


If you mean Qhaem SLV then its changed name to Sourosh SLV but if you mean Qhoghnoos SLV in Farsi thats just another name for Simorgh so they are the same only Qhaem changed name to Sourosh and the new one named Sarrir that is like 2 Simorgh attached on top of each other in the deimater os 2.4 Meter.

Agreed they were very weak Iran was moving very slow i will say for JCPOA but now that they are saying new SLV names then maybe they are moving on from JCPOA we have to see when they will give an other launch time for now in 14 days we will have at least one launch or two as they are two sats that are ready and waiting launch.


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## VEVAK

BlueInGreen2 said:


> @PeeD @Messerschmitt
> 
> Would it be logical to assume Iran also has airburst warheads that can be fitted on to existing Fateh missiles?
> 
> Seems like a no-brainer but I wanted to get your guy's thoughts on it.







Iran mainly wanted to prove the accuracy of it's missiles so the Americans don't miscalculate based on the delusional thinking of some in this US administration....

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Iran mainly wanted to prove the accuracy of it's missiles so the Americans don't miscalculate based on the delusional thinking of some in this US administration....



Nobody in Pentagon wants war with Iran and Trump doesn’t want war with Iran. He wanted the PR of killing a “bad guy” that’s it.

US killed Iran’s most important general plus a Brigadier General along with 3 other high ranking Quds operatives AND attempted an assassination of Quds force general of Yemen operations the same night. All it got in return was some concussed soldiers and a damaged Iraqi base. 

That is a no brainer exchange in favor of the US in the short term. Long term we shall see if Iraqis can kick the US out.

But let’s not move the goal posts and say that Iran prevented war. US pulled a card from the Zionist deck which means they took a high ranking Iranian official off the battlefield with little price to pay.

Don’t forget the Israel assassination of Quds force General Allahdadi along with high ranking Quds force and Hezbollah operatives near Israeli border. Iran ended up doing nothing. HZ ended up killing a few border patrol soldiers.

Pentagon won’t want war with Iran till it’s sufficiently weakened and de-fanged. That’s how US operates it waits till the target is weakened before coming in and acting like they did anything (see Iraq, Libya, Syria).


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## Messerschmitt

Pro-Kremlin Southfront's take (analysis) on the Iranian Ain al-Asad missile attack: https://southfront.org/analysis-of-the-iranian-missile-strikes-on-ayn-al-asad-airbase/

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## PeeD

Messerschmitt said:


> Pro-Kremlin Southfront's take (analysis) on the Iranian Ain al-Asad missile attack: https://southfront.org/analysis-of-the-iranian-missile-strikes-on-ayn-al-asad-airbase/



Very good analysis:

It also talks about those two run-way hits, that are clear capability display of the IRGC-ASF to the USAF:

High terminal velocity impacting Qiam-2 hitting the runway: I expect that the kinetic power and the intense shock wave create cracks and deformations in the runways that need time intensive repair work.

If that's the case, the message was: Look, our inexpensive Qiams will render all your air operations 500-800km from Irans borders inoperable. This is the range at which U.S tactical airpower can effectively fight with needed sortie rate.
Decrease sortie rate of U.S airpower and you directly decrease their warfighting capability. Decrease warfighting capability and your other missile assets can be spend without concerns of being destroyed, especially less survivable, time intensive and legacy ones.

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## GWXP

This precision is a game changer.

In Israel 6 power plants with 26 production units supply 51% of electricity. 
5 desalination plants supply 50% of drinking water. Same situation with electricity management and gas distribution.

200 precise hits at Israels strategic infrastructure will leave Israel without electricity, gas, water, gasoline thus devastating Israeli economy.

With this precision Iran can target hardened shelters for Israeli fighters at Israeli airbases.
400 precise hits at hardened shelters will destroy Israeli air force.

So Iran needs 600 precise hits to destroy Israeli economy and air force.

Fateh-313 is a wonderful missile....Iran can attack Israeli targets with this missile from Northern Iraq.

What Iran now needs is quantity quantity quantity

Deployment of hundreds of Fateh-313 missiles in Syria, Lebanon and Northern Iraq will allow to achieve strategic balance with Israel and even first strike capability.

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## Hack-Hook

PeeD said:


> Very good analysis:
> 
> It also talks about those two run-way hits, that are clear capability display of the IRGC-ASF to the USAF:
> 
> High terminal velocity impacting Qiam-2 hitting the runway: I expect that the kinetic power and the intense shock wave create cracks and deformations in the runways that need time intensive repair work.
> 
> If that's the case, the message was: Look, our inexpensive Qiams will render all your air operations 500-800km from Irans borders inoperable. This is the range at which U.S tactical airpower can effectively fight with needed sortie rate.
> Decrease sortie rate of U.S airpower and you directly decrease their warfighting capability. Decrease warfighting capability and your other missile assets can be spend without concerns of being destroyed, especially less survivable, time intensive and legacy ones.


without reading it I say its filled with nonsense just by hearing the name of the source of it.


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## yavar

U.S Pentagon now says 50 troops suffered brain injuries in Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike in Iraq
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pen...ers-suffered-brain-injuries/story?id=68598126

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## Arminkh

Hack-Hook said:


> without reading it I say its filled with nonsense just by hearing the name of the source of it.


Then read it. It is very factual without any bios.

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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> without reading it I say its filled with nonsense just by hearing the name of the source of it.



You should probably get educated.

For those on here who don’t know, SouthFront emerged during the height of the Syria. civil war as an attempt to reliably provide information on ongoing battles taking place throughout Syria. During Syria civil war it was hard to tell during major battles what was happening due to pro Jihadi and pro Syria sources exaggerating claims. MSM was highly unreliable because they would quote SOHR which was based out of England and backed by western intelligence agencies.

So SouthFront was one of the few sources that was not tainted by MSM that provided decent information on ongoing war.

I don’t know who called it a “pro-kremlin” source, I never heard that.

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## PeeD

After the Ukrainian shot down some Iranians seem to have their egos hurt...
Conclusion and judgment of that article is not of importance, the content and data is.

I admit that I would not use SF as a source, due to their natural bias. But analysis data is something different.

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## Shafqat7

PeeD said:


> After the Ukrainian shot down some Iranians seem to have their egos hurt...
> Conclusion and judgment of that article is not of importance, the content and data is.
> 
> I admit that I would not use SF as a source, due to their natural bias. But analysis data is something different.



@PeeD. The said article was not originally published by SF. The article first appeared in the Saker's Blog i.e thesaker.is/ Guest column section.

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## Websorber

*Ballistic Missile Explodes In Yemen; Houthis & Iranians Dead*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223126355853758466


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## Ich

Websorber said:


> *Ballistic Missile Explodes In Yemen; Houthis & Iranians Dead*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223126355853758466



Doesnt it look like the first stage after separation from the warhead?

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## GWXP

Websorber said:


> *Ballistic Missile Explodes In Yemen; Houthis & Iranians Dead*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223126355853758466


any reliable source for that claim?

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## Hack-Hook

Websorber said:


> *Ballistic Missile Explodes In Yemen; Houthis & Iranians Dead*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223126355853758466


first show me a single Iranian in Yemen

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## TheImmortal

Websorber said:


> *Ballistic Missile Explodes In Yemen; Houthis & Iranians Dead*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223126355853758466



Gonna need a valid source. 

Typically when a missile is getting ready for launch there isn’t “many” people around it. A few “engineers” or personnel trained to prime and ready the missile is what you see. The time when there is the biggest amount of people so if missile is being taken off of flatbed to be mounted on empty TEL.

You don’t need 20 people to stand around to prep to launch a missile.

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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223008467465752581

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## TruthHurtz

skyshadow said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223008467465752581



Interesting that China compromised Iron Dome back in 2011-12, I wonder if Iran got a hold of this in exchange for the downed RQ-170. Not saying it has anything to do with this incident.

There was a huge tech leap in Iran after the RQ-170 was downed, looks like Iran held a huge bargaining chip over Russia and China's head. Wonder the extent of what Iran received from it.

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223300758810058755

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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223008467465752581


Weren't they supposed to have self destruct mechanism when this happens?


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## Blue In Green

sha ah said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223300758810058755



At the very least we can say that there is some level of cover-up going on here. How much and to what degree I can't say nor will I comment on since I just don't know but there is most definitely some cover-up--You don't say "all is well" then have 64 of your soldiers be diagnosed with TBI's which are not something to simply brush off. These aren't 'headaches', they're quite substantial and possibly life-altering to the person afflicted. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/traumatic-brain-injury/symptoms-causes/syc-20378557


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## TruthHurtz

BlueInGreen2 said:


> At the very least we can say that there is some level of cover-up going on here. How much and to what degree I can't say nor will I comment on since I just don't know but there is most definitely some cover-up--You don't say "all is well" then have 64 of your soldiers be diagnosed with TBI's which are not something to simply brush off. These aren't 'headaches', they're quite substantial and possibly life-altering to the person afflicted.
> 
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/traumatic-brain-injury/symptoms-causes/syc-20378557



TBIs can be diagnosed sometime after a traumatic event occurs. Not often in the immediate aftermath.

But I agree if they came out with a large figure initially it would be a huge PR blow.

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## skyshadow

TruthHurtz said:


> Interesting that China compromised Iron Dome back in 2011-12, I wonder if Iran got a hold of this in exchange for the downed RQ-170. Not saying it has anything to do with this incident.
> 
> There was a huge tech leap in Iran after the RQ-170 was downed, looks like Iran held a huge bargaining chip over Russia and China's head. Wonder the extent of what Iran received from it.




actually the tech leap for Iran was 50 years let's say 30 for Russia and China so agreed it was huge leap.

i want to know what really happen when a S-161 went in Israel air space and why they could not intercept it

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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> first show me a single Iranian in Yemen


Lack of evidence of Iranian in Yemen =/= No Iranians are physically present in Yemen. We know Hezbollah was/is already in Yemen, so its possible IRGCQF personnel might be there. US had a failed drone strike on IRGC-QF head of Yemen, and he's in Yemen! so did US do ghost drone strike on a ghost person??

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## skyshadow

scimitar19 said:


> Weren't they supposed to have self destruct mechanism when this happens?



yes iron dome has a self destruction mechanisms


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## Hack-Hook

925boy said:


> Lack of evidence of Iranian in Yemen =/= No Iranians are physically present in Yemen. We know Hezbollah was/is already in Yemen, so its possible IRGCQF personnel might be there. US had a failed drone strike on IRGC-QF head of Yemen, and he's in Yemen! so did US do ghost drone strike on a ghost person??


evidence ?
let me tell you a fact we never denied our presence in any place . if they can't show evidence of our presence there then its just usual baseless claims


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## skyshadow



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## Blue In Green

skyshadow said:


>



Is this a newer or older photo?


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## skyshadow

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Is this a newer or older photo?



new, these are Emad missiles

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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> evidence ?
> let me tell you a fact we never denied our presence in any place . if they can't show evidence of our presence there then its just usual baseless claims


So using your logic, where are the pics of IRGC- QF officers in Lebanon NOW?? WE know they are there, with their hezbollah brothers, but i've never seen a pic of them in Lebanon.

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## TruthHurtz

skyshadow said:


> new, these are Emad missiles



No it's old. Dates back to 2015, they just mass produced enough Emads to show off.

https://www.uskowioniran.com/2015/10/underground-basing-of-irgc-asf.html

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## skyshadow

TruthHurtz said:


> No it's old. Dates back to 2015, they just mass produced enough Emads to show off.
> 
> https://www.uskowioniran.com/2015/10/underground-basing-of-irgc-asf.html


i know that but he asked about the pic not missiles


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## 925boy

TruthHurtz said:


> No it's old. Dates back to 2015, they just mass produced enough Emads to show off.
> 
> https://www.uskowioniran.com/2015/10/underground-basing-of-irgc-asf.html


Gosh i miss his blogs.


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## TruthHurtz

925boy said:


> Gosh i miss his blogs.



He still posts regularly on twitter but mostly about things no one cares about. But his recent protest analysis was quite good, basically proved that it was all overblown Zionist media propaganda BS.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223166128488374273

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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> yes iron dome has a self destruction mechanisms



Really?! Yeah sure. It self destructed upon hitting the building.

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## yavar

U.S Pentagon now says 64 troops suffered brain injuries in Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike in Iraq 
https://nypost.com/2020/01/30/penta...ered-traumatic-brain-injuries-in-iran-strike/


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## skyshadow

scimitar19 said:


> Really?! Yeah sure. It self destructed upon hitting the building.


Well yeh they say that it has


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## Ich

Me think this failures with the iron dome happen cause of bad termo management inside if many fired at same time.

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## TheImmortal

Ich said:


> Me think this failures with the iron dome happen cause of bad termo management inside if many fired at same time.



I think Iron Dome does its job at an acceptable rate all things considered. Downside to the system is cost per missile and overall system cost.

Iran could likely produce such a system for a fraction of the cost, but its only client would be Syria. Iran has no use for such a system nor does Iraq. It’s an anti insurgency AD system. Very niche.

Davids Sling and Arrow are a different story.

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> I think Iron Dome does its job at an acceptable rate all things considered. Downside to the system is cost per missile and overall system cost.
> 
> Iran could likely produce such a system for a fraction of the cost, but its only client would be Syria. Iran has no use for such a system nor does Iraq. It’s an anti insurgency AD system. Very niche.
> 
> Davids Sling and Arrow are a different story.


The system is already at a fraction of the price and I don't think you can build it cheaper and iran has needs for such system it can be used against jdam or cruise missiles all any other type of such weapons, It can be used against UAVS .



Ich said:


> Me think this failures with the iron dome happen cause of bad termo management inside if many fired at same time.


I think all systems has failure and this failure is the price they pay for trying to build the missiles as cheap as possible.

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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> The system is already at a fraction of the price and I don't think you can build it cheaper and iran has needs for such system it can be used against jdam or cruise missiles all any other type of such weapons, It can be used against UAVS .



You sir are misinformed and quite frankly don’t know what you are talking about.

_An *Iron Dome* battery runs $50 million, with each missile in the neighborhood of $40,000 to $100,000 (estimates vary). _

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-cost-of-iron-dome

So to stop a $500-$1000 homemade rocket Israel is spending upwards of 100K per interceptor on top of $50 million per battery (not battalion). 

According to @VEVAK Iran produces a F-110 missile for $100K so let that sink in.

Furthermore, Iron dome is terrible for intercepting cruise missiles. It was designed to intercept low flying predictable trajectory rockets that fly too low for traditional AD interception altitude. 

If Iron Dome was adequate to intercept CMs Israel wouldn’t be racing to beef up their air defenses against long range Iranian CMs.

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> You sir are misinformed and quite frankly don’t know what you are talking about.
> 
> _An *Iron Dome* battery runs $50 million, with each missile in the neighborhood of $40,000 to $100,000 (estimates vary). _
> 
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-cost-of-iron-dome
> 
> So to stop a $500-$1000 homemade rocket Israel is spending upwards of 100K per interceptor on top of $50 million per battery (not battalion).
> 
> According to @VEVAK Iran produces a F-110 missile for $100K so let that sink in.
> 
> Furthermore, Iron dome is terrible for intercepting cruise missiles. It was designed to intercept low flying predictable trajectory rockets that fly too low for traditional AD interception altitude.
> 
> If Iron Dome was adequate to intercept CMs Israel wouldn’t be racing to beef up their air defenses against long range Iranian CMs.


Iron Dome missile is 40000$ per missile and you can't go cheaper than that.
Wonder you think how much pantsir or tor missile will cost you? Let tell you a secret a crotale R460 missile cost you 135000$ each.

So here it seems you are misinformed. I wonder if you can show me a system that uses cheaper missiles.


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## Mithridates

Hack-Hook said:


> The system is already at a fraction of the price and I don't think you can build it cheaper and iran has needs for such system it can be used against jdam or cruise missiles all any other type of such weapons, It can be used against UAVS .
> 
> 
> I think all systems has failure and this failure is the price they pay for trying to build the missiles as cheap as possible.


iron dome can intercept CMs if they do not maneuver in it's missile range. it's a simple point AD that can intercept targets moving on an strait line. the missile price is low because it's guidance burden is on the radar and ground targeting system not the missile itself which is a basic rocket with a simple iR sensor.

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## Hack-Hook

Mithridates said:


> iron dome can intercept CMs if they do not maneuver in it's missile range. it's a simple point AD that can intercept targets moving on an strait line. the missile price is low because it's guidance burden is on the radar and ground targeting system not the missile itself which is a basic rocket with a simple iR sensor.


it is used successfully against drone so it can be used against cruise missile . and its a point defense system as it designed for such mission .by the way JDAM, Cruise missiles, Quasi ballistic missiles all are not that maneuvering system at the terminal phase .




I say the missile is pretty much maneuverable and can intercept maneuvering target
what ever others say ,I say the design is wise can intercept target from 4km-70km for just 40000$ each launcher carry 20 missile and each system have 3-4 launcher so its very hard to overwhelm it
now compare it with Pantsir yes its more mobile but for the same missile weight (90kg) it only can engage 18km away and carry 12 missile or Tor which is 160kg and can engage 12km away and can only carry 8 missile or crotale that has a range of 16km and can carry at most 8 missile

just calculate how many of other system you need to protect a city and how many Iron Dome you need and how many missile you get with each solution.

Iron Dome is a good design that everybody can learn from it and according to spec the missiles are E/O not infrared

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## Messerschmitt

An interesting paper about Iran's project to turn Hezbollah's missiles into precision guided missiles: http://www.bicom.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Precision-Project-Paper.pdf

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1224932155190460421

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## skyshadow

*

عين الاسد هميشه خبرساز است واقعيت‌ها و اتفاقات پايگاه مهم آمريکايي‌ها در منطقه پس از حمله موشکي ايران دوباره خبرساز مي‌شود... بزودي *

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## mohsen

Senior Iranian diplomat, Amir Abdollahinan:
Through several mediates which arrived in Iran shortly after US terror of Gen Suleimani, Trump had promised to halt all sanctions related to him if Iran avoid it's retaliation, Americans even suggested that Iran negotiate with them about possible targets for the revenge strike, but all offers were rejected.

attacking Ain Al-assad was just the revenge for attacking Gen Suleimani's car, the revenge for his blood is expelling of Americans from the region.

Abdollahian also said that Ain Al-assad was highly equipped and had both missile diverters and and anti missile defense systems yet in surprise to Americans, Iran targeted this base and their defense systems failed to counter.

امیرعبدالهیان: دقت برخورد موشک‌های ایران بیش از تصور آمریکا بود - مشرق نیوز


In another news, Karim Al-mohammadavi a member of Security and Defense Commission in Iraq parliament said US is pressing hard to not evacuate the Ain Al-assad, cause this base is already equipped with patriot defense system.
نماینده عراقی از تلاش آمریکا برای ترک نکردن پایگاه «عین الاسد» خبر داد | خبرگزاری فارس

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> Senior Iranian diplomat, Amir Abdollahinan:
> Through several mediates which arrived in Iran shortly after US terror of Gen Suleimani, Trump had promised to halt all sanctions related to him if Iran avoid it's retaliation, Americans even suggested that Iran negotiate with them about possible targets for the revenge strike, but all offers were rejected.



What a load of propaganda. Trump was going to lift all sanctions on Iran if they did not retaliate? Who believes that?

US asked for negotiations on what targets to allow to be struck in revenge? This propaganda is for the villagers in Iran who don’t know better.

Let’s not forget another Quds force General died in that car along with 3 other operatives and Quds Force General of Yemen ops was also targeted.

But we are to believe, US was “so scared” of Iranian retaliation that they went for a mega decapitation strike and crossed all red lines including rules of war and engagement.

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## mohsen

TheImmortal said:


> What a load of propaganda. Trump was going to lift all sanctions on Iran if they did not retaliate? Who believes that?
> 
> US asked for negotiations on what targets to allow to be struck in revenge? This propaganda is for the villagers in Iran who don’t know better.
> 
> Let’s not forget another Quds force General died in that car along with 3 other operatives and Quds Force General of Yemen ops was also targeted.
> 
> But we are to believe, US was “so scared” of Iranian retaliation that they went for a mega decapitation strike and crossed all red lines including rules of war and engagement.


Yeah sure, all of the foreign officials who visited Iran in that time were carrying weather information.
2500 US troops were all in the shelters, the CIA bombardier was empty, basically as trump said everything is good!

Next time I will ask them to check their information with CIA trolls first!

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## PeeD

Sardar Hajizadeh better saves up footage and details of the Ain-al-Assad attack for the final U.S election days. Same for North Korean ICBM tests.

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## Raghfarm007

Dont worry....if he shows footage, it will be repeated on TV until the election.....

But if you really think about it, Trump has weakened the US significatly..... it would be advantages for Iran to have Trump in office again.

what you want for your enemy is Retards for president for ever.

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## Stryker1982

Raghfarm007 said:


> Dont worry....if he shows footage, it will be repeated on TV until the election.....
> 
> But if you really think about it, Trump has weakened the US significatly..... it would be advantages for Iran to have Trump in office again.
> 
> what you want for your enemy is Retards for president for ever.



Naah, Iran was better off during the Obama years.


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## AbubakerS

TheImmortal said:


> What a load of propaganda. Trump was going to lift all sanctions on Iran if they did not retaliate? Who believes that?
> 
> US asked for negotiations on what targets to allow to be struck in revenge? This propaganda is for the villagers in Iran who don’t know better.
> 
> Let’s not forget another Quds force General died in that car along with 3 other operatives and Quds Force General of Yemen ops was also targeted.
> 
> But we are to believe, US was “so scared” of Iranian retaliation that they went for a mega decapitation strike and crossed all red lines including rules of war and engagement.


Salaams brothers
This is the first time I'm posting on here but have been reading posts on PD for many years.
Anyhow, believe it or not, Trump offering such concessions is not so far fetched. It's possible he may have been told by his Military chiefs (most of these are usually 'yes men' that only tell you what you want to hear) that Iran would be too terrified to respond militarily.
When US Military planners became a bit soberer and realised through their intelligence agencies that Iranian missiles were be brought out their bunkers, Iranian radar was trying to lock on to fighter jets etc, it would have forced Trump to re-evaluate the situation in case it turned out be an all-out war. Trump may have certainly offered sweetners to the Iranians through 'third-parties' to persuade the Iranians to step back. One of these would most certainly have been to 'drop all sanctions'. Of course he would not have followed through with this but it could have brought the Americans a few weeks for things to calm down.

Now I say this because I know when India tested their Atomic bomb in 1998, Pakistan then promised to do the same. The the President of the USA and military offered to drop sanctions and to release Pakistan's miliatry hardware (which Pakistan had paid for i.e F16s) amongst other things if Pakistan did not carry out with the tit-for-tat Atomic tests.

So it is well possible this happened.


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## Raghfarm007

Stryker1982 said:


> Naah, Iran was better off during the Obama years.



How so? Do you think Iran was also better off under the shah??


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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> Yeah sure, all of the foreign officials who visited Iran in that time were carrying weather information.
> 2500 US troops were all in the shelters, the CIA bombardier was empty, basically as trump said everything is good!
> 
> Next time I will ask them to check their information with CIA trolls first!



You spew propaganda and have been exposed on this forum multiple times for citing propaganda.

How naive you must be to believe that the US was going to remove ALL sanctions if Iran didn’t retaliate. US sanctions on Iran have been around since 1979, you think the US cares about 1200 soldiers making 30K a year? Laughable. Iran sent 1200 soldiers to their death A DAY during the Iraq war.

But yes let’s believe the same group that said that they didn’t down the airliner right next to their own airport. I mean they are the beacon of truthfulness.

I am sure if the role was reversed and Iran had assassinated 2 4 star generals along with 3 high ranking commanders (and attempted the life on another 4 star commander) that you would be calling Iran “weak” and US “strong” for having attacked an Iranian military base in Syria resulting in zero deaths.

I mean the mental hoops you jump through to justify this propaganda is no better than Babak on Twitter. Both of you are imbeciles.

None of these foreign powers are scared of Iran nor care about Iran. You forget these same foreign powers killed millions of Iranians via famine during WW1 and WW2. There were less than 12 million Iranians by end of WW1. 

The emissaries are nothing but devil whispers that come to trick Iran like they tricked Ghaddafi, Saddam, and Assad. 

Only fools like you think US would remove the pressure on Iran over a handful of casualties. What a joke.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> You spew propaganda and have been exposed on this forum multiple times for citing propaganda.
> 
> How naive you must be to believe that the US was going to remove ALL sanctions if Iran didn’t retaliate. US sanctions on Iran have been around since 1979, you think the US cares about 1200 soldiers making 30K a year? Laughable. Iran sent 1200 soldiers to their death A DAY during the Iraq war.
> 
> But yes let’s believe the same group that said that they didn’t down the airliner right next to their own airport. I mean they are the beacon of truthfulness.
> 
> I am sure if the role was reversed and Iran had assassinated 2 4 star generals along with 3 high ranking commanders (and attempted the life on another 4 star commander) that you would be calling Iran “weak” and US “strong” for having attacked an Iranian military base in Syria resulting in zero deaths.
> 
> I mean the mental hoops you jump through to justify this propaganda is no better than Babak on Twitter. Both of you are imbeciles.
> 
> None of these foreign powers are scared of Iran nor care about Iran. You forget these same foreign powers killed millions of Iranians via famine during WW1 and WW2. There were less than 12 million Iranians by end of WW1.
> 
> The emissaries are nothing but devil whispers that come to trick Iran like they tricked Ghaddafi, Saddam, and Assad.
> 
> Only fools like you think US would remove the pressure on Iran over a handful of casualties. What a joke.



Lets hope Iran can manage for the time being.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1224511631419301889

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225811170625495041

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225814207834226688

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1225846329538158594

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## mohsen

TheImmortal said:


> You spew propaganda and have been exposed on this forum multiple times for citing propaganda.
> 
> How naive you must be to believe that the US was going to remove ALL sanctions if Iran didn’t retaliate. US sanctions on Iran have been around since 1979, you think the US cares about 1200 soldiers making 30K a year? Laughable. Iran sent 1200 soldiers to their death A DAY during the Iraq war.
> 
> But yes let’s believe the same group that said that they didn’t down the airliner right next to their own airport. I mean they are the beacon of truthfulness.
> 
> I am sure if the role was reversed and Iran had assassinated 2 4 star generals along with 3 high ranking commanders (and attempted the life on another 4 star commander) that you would be calling Iran “weak” and US “strong” for having attacked an Iranian military base in Syria resulting in zero deaths.
> 
> I mean the mental hoops you jump through to justify this propaganda is no better than Babak on Twitter. Both of you are imbeciles.
> 
> None of these foreign powers are scared of Iran nor care about Iran. You forget these same foreign powers killed millions of Iranians via famine during WW1 and WW2. There were less than 12 million Iranians by end of WW1.
> 
> The emissaries are nothing but devil whispers that come to trick Iran like they tricked Ghaddafi, Saddam, and Assad.
> 
> Only fools like you think US would remove the pressure on Iran over a handful of casualties. What a joke.


I didn't say US was going to remove all sanctions, please don't make these laughable lies.

If I were in foreign ministry I would clean my sh!t with their letter and send it back.

Those fake foreign powers are the same ones whose ship was seized by Iran while they were escorting it, only a fool would compare Shah era military with Iran's today capabilities.

When their costs outrun their benefits they will give up the pressure. What US lost in Iran's attack was it's image as an untouchable superpower, If live of their soldiers didn't matter, they wouldn't try this hard to hide it, this will affect the future of both their politicians and their military.


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## VEVAK

mohsen said:


> I didn't say US was going to remove all sanctions, please don't make these laughable lies.
> 
> If I were in foreign ministry I would clean my sh!t with their letter and send it back.
> 
> Those fake foreign powers are the same ones whose ship was seized by Iran while they were escorting it, only a fool would compare Shah era military with Iran's today capabilities.
> 
> When their costs outrun their benefits they will give up the pressure. What US lost in Iran's attack was it's image as an untouchable superpower, If live of their soldiers didn't matter, they wouldn't try this hard to hide it, this will affect the future of both their politicians and their military.



All the love letters between Kim & Trump led to the removal of what Sanctions? I think we all know that answer to that! 

Plus when our own Majles is fully capable of restricting Iranian tech maybe we should fixate on fixing their behaviors before worrying about what foreigners do!
https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/...-برای-ممنوعیت-تولید-و-استفاده-از-سلاح-هسته-ای

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## DoubleYouSee

AbubakerS said:


> Salaams brothers
> This is the first time I'm posting on here but have been reading posts on PD for many years.
> Anyhow, believe it or not, Trump offering such concessions is not so far fetched. It's possible he may have been told by his Military chiefs (most of these are usually 'yes men' that only tell you what you want to hear) that Iran would be too terrified to respond militarily.
> When US Military planners became a bit soberer and realised through their intelligence agencies that Iranian missiles were be brought out their bunkers, Iranian radar was trying to lock on to fighter jets etc, it would have forced Trump to re-evaluate the situation in case it turned out be an all-out war. Trump may have certainly offered sweetners to the Iranians through 'third-parties' to persuade the Iranians to step back. One of these would most certainly have been to 'drop all sanctions'. Of course he would not have followed through with this but it could have brought the Americans a few weeks for things to calm down.
> 
> Now I say this because I know when India tested their Atomic bomb in 1998, Pakistan then promised to do the same. The the President of the USA and military offered to drop sanctions and to release Pakistan's miliatry hardware (which Pakistan had paid for i.e F16s) amongst other things if Pakistan did not carry out with the tit-for-tat Atomic tests.
> 
> So it is well possible this happened.


The americans thought they will win any war with any enemy,so your hypothesis is not correct......in my oponion the only reason which persuaded them not to extend the conflict with Iran was lack of preparation....they didn't prepare for war.....but now conditions differ......

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## TheImmortal

mohsen said:


> I didn't say US was going to remove all sanctions, please don't make these laughable lies.
> 
> If I were in foreign ministry I would clean my sh!t with their letter and send it back.
> 
> Those fake foreign powers are the same ones whose ship was seized by Iran while they were escorting it, only a fool would compare Shah era military with Iran's today capabilities.
> 
> When their costs outrun their benefits they will give up the pressure. What US lost in Iran's attack was it's image as an untouchable superpower, If live of their soldiers didn't matter, they wouldn't try this hard to hide it, this will affect the future of both their politicians and their military.



Listen US has been #1 superpower since end of WW2. Since then it has lost soldiers in Vietnam, Korea, and Persian Gulf War 1. So this thinking that US is adverse to casualties or has this image to protect of not being able to be attacked is not rooted in reality. Saddam landed some solid punches in Persian Gulf War I.

So just because there has NOT been a major war, don’t call the US a paper tiger just yet.

US will not remove sanctions on Iran, they have no reason to. The world economy is moving along and US economy is still humming despite being late stage of a long bull market.

What has Iran done? A few tanker attacks, a ship seizure, Armaco warning attack, and Al-Assad. Nothing but minor temper tantrums that world just shrugged and ignored.

Iran is suffering and though all the boastful propaganda of “if we cannot export oil no one will be allowed to” we can see that Iranian leadership values it’s survival over anything else. Entering into direct conflict with US would be disaster no matter what Iran does to the world economy.

So far the “costs” of keeping Iran sanctions has been negligent to the US where as since 2003 Iran has lost an estimated 600 billion dollars (lost oil revenue + investment/trade + opportunity costs).

So take your head out of the sand, Iran is struggling in this fight and the costs the US is incurring is negligent.

They took out the most powerful Iranian general (along with other HVTs) and Iran gave some soldiers some headaches and concussion. I mean for the US that is a laughable trade off.

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Listen US has been #1 superpower since end of WW2. Since then it has lost soldiers in Vietnam, Korea, and Persian Gulf War 1. So this thinking that US is adverse to casualties or has this image to protect of not being able to be attacked is not rooted in reality. Saddam landed some solid punches in Persian Gulf War I.
> 
> So just because there has NOT been a major war, don’t call the US a paper tiger just yet.
> 
> US will not remove sanctions on Iran, they have no reason to. The world economy is moving along and US economy is still humming despite being late stage of a long bull market.
> 
> What has Iran done? A few tanker attacks, a ship seizure, Armaco warning attack, and Al-Assad. Nothing but minor temper tantrums that world just shrugged and ignored.
> 
> Iran is suffering and though all the boastful propaganda of “if we cannot export oil no one will be allowed to” we can see that Iranian leadership values it’s survival over anything else. Entering into direct conflict with US would be disaster no matter what Iran does to the world economy.
> 
> So far the “costs” of keeping Iran sanctions has been negligent to the US where as since 2003 Iran has lost an estimated 600 billion dollars (lost oil revenue + investment/trade + opportunity costs).
> 
> So take your head out of the sand, Iran is struggling in this fight and the costs the US is incurring is negligent.
> 
> They took out the most powerful Iranian general (along with other HVTs) and Iran gave some soldiers some headaches and concussion. I mean for the US that is a laughable trade off.



Can't really argue with you, that is the reality of the situation for the most part. 

Question: Given this reality what do you think Iran should do for the time being though? You're absolutely right when it comes to the rather negligible Iranian 'counter-attacks' that have gone on but in light of that what else should Iran be doing.

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## Draco.IMF

TheImmortal said:


> What has Iran done? A few tanker attacks, a ship seizure, Armaco warning attack, and Al-Assad. Nothing but minor temper tantrums that world just shrugged and ignored.
> 
> They took out the most powerful Iranian general (along with other HVTs) and Iran gave some soldiers some headaches and concussion. I mean for the US that is a laughable trade off.




More than 80 dead at al-assad base (they are still hiding the real damage but it will come out, sooner or later)

The erbil base was struck by, at least, 5 missiles, and it took out the command centre with many casualties

Over a dozen joint CIA/Mossad/Mi6 targets were hit (+ CIA jet downed)

and thats just the beginning...

the cost of taking out the "most powerful Iranian general" is the expulsion of all foreign occupiers out of Iraq

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## arashkamangir

Draco.IMF said:


> More than 80 dead at al-assad base (they are still hiding the real damage but it will come out, sooner or later)
> 
> The erbil base was struck by, at least, 5 missiles, and it took out the command centre with many casualties
> 
> Over a dozen joint CIA/Mossad/Mi6 targets were hit (+ CIA jet downed)
> 
> and thats just the beginning...
> 
> the cost of taking out the "most powerful Iranian general" is the expulsion of all foreign occupiers out of Iraq




I am sorry but as a scientist, I look for empirical facts and evidence. I also look at historical record of IRGC's competence in calculation and rational decision making in foreign policy and war tactics. We have empirical evidence of precision strike and there is no need to make fiction. Solders have suffered TBI because of massive warheads of Qiam that was fired precisely to exactly achieve that: Shock and Awe


This was the only option: material and psychological damage at a cost of minimal retaliation. Iran's foreign policy is not bounded by one person, it is a long term strategy of removal of US from middle east. This is not an immediate goal but long term and it can only be achieved through attrition, increase in operation costs and politics and that is precisely how Iran has been operating for the past 40 years. It will not change majorly as it has been working.

Only irrational actors breakaway from principals of Realpolitik and proportionality.

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## Draco.IMF

arashkamangir said:


> I am sorry but as a scientist, I look for empirical facts and evidence. I also look at historical record of IRGC's competence in calculation and rational decision making in foreign policy and war tactics. We have empirical evidence of precision strike and there is no need to make fiction. Solders have suffered TBI because of massive warheads of Qiam that was fired precisely to exactly achieve that: Shock and Awe
> 
> 
> This was the only option: material and psychological damage at a cost of minimal retaliation. Iran's foreign policy is not bounded by one person, it is a long term strategy of removal of US from middle east. This is not an immediate goal but long term and it can only be achieved through attrition, increase in operation costs and politics and that is precisely how Iran has been operating for the past 40 years. It will not change majorly as it has been working.
> 
> Only irrational actors breakaway from principals of Realpolitik and proportionality.



Iran was fully ready to go "all out" if US had retaliated:

https://ejmagnier.com/2020/02/01/ho...s-bases-and-how-trump-avoided-an-all-out-war/

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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> Listen US has been #1 superpower since end of WW2. Since then it has lost soldiers in Vietnam, Korea, and Persian Gulf War 1. So this thinking that US is adverse to casualties or has this image to protect of not being able to be attacked is not rooted in reality. Saddam landed some solid punches in Persian Gulf War I.
> 
> So just because there has NOT been a major war, don’t call the US a paper tiger just yet.
> 
> US will not remove sanctions on Iran, they have no reason to. The world economy is moving along and US economy is still humming despite being late stage of a long bull market.
> 
> What has Iran done? A few tanker attacks, a ship seizure, Armaco warning attack, and Al-Assad. Nothing but minor temper tantrums that world just shrugged and ignored.
> 
> Iran is suffering and though all the boastful propaganda of “if we cannot export oil no one will be allowed to” we can see that Iranian leadership values it’s survival over anything else. Entering into direct conflict with US would be disaster no matter what Iran does to the world economy.
> 
> So far the “costs” of keeping Iran sanctions has been negligent to the US where as since 2003 Iran has lost an estimated 600 billion dollars (lost oil revenue + investment/trade + opportunity costs).
> 
> So take your head out of the sand, Iran is struggling in this fight and the costs the US is incurring is negligent.
> 
> They took out the most powerful Iranian general (along with other HVTs) and Iran gave some soldiers some headaches and concussion. I mean for the US that is a laughable trade off.


u are the one who said us dont have no lost live in sepah missile attack i want to say sardar hajizade have suprise for you soon some us terrorist soldiers have soft death he say news about it soonb


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## Messerschmitt

A new composite body missile 'Raad-500' has been unveiled: https://tn.ai/2199357
It has half the weight of the 'Fateh-110' but 200 km longer range and uses a composite engine called 'Zoheir'.

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## Aref

Messerschmitt said:


> https://tn.ai/2199357

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226475274264567808

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226459056220655617

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226463137630695424

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226480172662231043

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## PeeD

So with the Salman, Iran has become a missile power with flex nozzle technology.

Salman is a good second or third stage for a light ICBM.

Iran has defacto displayed full ICBM tech.

Big first stage boosters visible via satellite
Flex nozzle >1m dia. casing carbon/graphite casing.

Both combined means a ICBM, a very compact an mobile one.

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## sha ah

Why the silly name games ? Why didn't they just call it Fateh-500 ? LOL Everytime they upgrade something they have to give it a new name ? And why is it that they call everything Raad, Saeqeh or Toofan ? Iran should upgrade the Khorramshahr missiles into an IRBM that can cover all of Europe. They should call it the "Soleimani" missile. 



Messerschmitt said:


> A new composite body missile 'Raad-500' has been unveiled: https://tn.ai/2199357
> It has half the weight of the 'Fateh-110' but 200 km longer range and uses a composite engine called 'Zoheir'.



Fateh 110 had a range of 300 correct ? Zolfaqar's range was up to 700 km. They're stating that they've extended the range by 200 km ? So would that mean 900 km ? judging by the name I'm assuming it has a range of 500 km, so less than the Zolfaqar ? If it does weigh less than previous versions though, that means it can carry a larger warhead I'm assuming ? 



Messerschmitt said:


> A new composite body missile 'Raad-500' has been unveiled: https://tn.ai/2199357
> It has half the weight of the 'Fateh-110' but 200 km longer range and uses a composite engine called 'Zoheir'.

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## NaCon

They should create a naval version of this missile

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## Mithridates

sha ah said:


> If it does weigh less than previous versions though, that means it can carry a larger warhead I'm assuming ?


well to me it seems smaller than fateh. so actually it's warhead might be smaller than fateh class missiles.
i'm not an expert but i remember that israeli expert said before that fateh class is made to target SAMs, considering this missile thrust vectoring capability it should be a real anti air defense missile.

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## yavar

Iran Raad-500 solid propellant, produce surface-to-surface ballistic missile and Third stage maneuverable nozzle solid propellant, of Intercontinental ballistic missile with a small radar cross-sectional area, enhance the maneuverability of missiles to defeat missile defense systems dubbed Salaman

in a ceremony in Tehran, IRGC Commander Major General Hossein Salami and Commander of the IRGC Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh inaugurated an assembly line producing “Ra’ad-500” (thunder-500) missiles equipped with an advanced composite engine dubbed “Zohair”.
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/...veils-new-missile-with-composite-engine-video

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## GWXP

It seems like warhead separates and maneuvers toward the target----as a maneuvering warhead we can assume it can overcome anti-ballistic missile defenses and hit the target with high precision

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## Sina-1

@PeeD, in regards to fateh variants down the line, do you think that Iran should go for a finless design with e.g. TVC and gas steering?


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> So with the Salman, Iran has become a missile power with flex nozzle technology.
> 
> Salman is a good second or third stage for a light ICBM.
> 
> Iran has defacto displayed full ICBM tech.
> 
> Big first stage boosters visible via satellite
> Flex nozzle >1m dia. casing carbon/graphite casing.
> 
> Both combined means a ICBM, a very compact an mobile one.



that is by far the bigger news here today!

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## yavar

Iran Salman composite 3rd stage IRBM/ICBM Space propellant for defeat missile defense solid fuel ایران



listen to BS they coming out with they try to make after Hajj Qassem soleimani was martyred they started making it and with in one months they made it and it is for satellite

if it is for satellite then what is orbital transfer SUS-M ( Saman-1 ) ?? who uses solid fuel for 3rd or 2nd stage in SLV for orbital maneuver

what joke,

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## VEVAK

Salmon would effectively put Bases like Diego Garcia within Iran's reach using platforms already available like the Khoramshar or a 3stage version of the Sejil-2

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## PeeD

Sina-1 said:


> @PeeD, in regards to fateh variants down the line, do you think that Iran should go for a finless design with e.g. TVC and gas steering?



It's a cost issue.

One could imagine paying money for such a flex nozzle system to counter exo-atmospheric systems like the THAAD.
But no: better thermal shielding + fins and a shallow attack trajectory is the solution to counter more advanced ABM.

This thing makes sense for a high value missile: A ICBM.
Or ASAT. Too large for ABM.

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## Sina-1

PeeD said:


> It's a cost issue.
> 
> One could imagine paying money for such a flex nozzle system to counter exo-atmospheric systems like the THAAD.
> But no: better thermal shielding + fins and a shallow attack trajectory is the solution to counter more advanced ABM.
> 
> This thing makes sense for a high value missile: A ICBM.
> Or ASAT. Too large for ABM.


I’m fishing after canister launched fateh class that could be deployed in future ships and submarines. Do you think retractable fins could be a possibility?


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> It's a cost issue.
> 
> One could imagine paying money for such a flex nozzle system to counter exo-atmospheric systems like the THAAD.
> But no: better thermal shielding + fins and a shallow attack trajectory is the solution to counter more advanced ABM.
> 
> This thing makes sense for a high value missile: A ICBM.
> Or ASAT. Too large for ABM.





Sina-1 said:


> I’m fishing after canister launched fateh class that could be deployed in future ships and submarines. Do you think retractable fins could be a possibility?



Why you so worried about the fin's? If need be they can just use bigger containers! Main thing with Raad-500 is Cost reduction by 50% and the use of much smaller and more compact facilities for production. 

This is the type of missile system that would eventually be produced at small facilities across every province of Iran.
That's the key point with the Raad-500

As for a ship launched version they will need a missile designed to be vertically launched so it will be a completely different type of missile...…

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Why you so worried about the fin's? If need be they can just use bigger containers! Main thing with Raad-500 is Cost reduction by 50% and the use of much smaller and more compact facilities for production.
> 
> This is the type of missile system that would eventually be produced at small facilities across every province of Iran.
> That's the key point with the Raad-500
> 
> As for a ship launched version they will need a missile designed to be vertically launched so it will be a completely different type of missile...…



I question HALF the cost. Seems translation error due to HALF the weight.

You said F-110 cost less than 100K then this means this cost less than 50K. Laughable.

Like I said, it’s either an error or you were wrong in F-110 cost estimation (like always).

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> I question HALF the cost. Seems translation error due to HALF the weight.
> 
> You said F-110 cost less than 100K then this means this cost less than 50K. Laughable.
> 
> Like I said, it’s either an error or you were wrong in F-110 cost estimation (like always).



They are likely referring to the cost of the booster (Rocket engine and airframe) not the entire system plus the Raad-500 is not as accurate as the F-313 or the Mobine at least not yet

Also if you knew about all the facilities required in producing even the F-110 you would better understand why it's so much cheaper to produce

You also have to realize that Iran is NOT a capitalist country and no one is making money off selling the military these missiles nor adding R&D cost to the cost of the missile and the MOD is not only getting everything at cost but also material cost for them is as cheap as moving dirt!


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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> I question HALF the cost. Seems translation error due to HALF the weight.


i don't know if the cost is half but general salami said it's cheaper than previous fatehs.

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## Philosopher

TheImmortal said:


> I question HALF the cost. Seems translation error due to HALF the weight.
> 
> You said F-110 cost less than 100K then this means this cost less than 50K. Laughable.
> 
> Like I said, it’s either an error or you were wrong in F-110 cost estimation (like always).



Hezijadeh directly said the cost is half:

Watch at 1:01










Mithridates said:


> i don't know if the cost is half but general salami said it's cheaper than previous fatehs.



It is half, watch video above.

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## Philosopher

I was thinking, just imagine if Iran applied all these new composite body and fuel technology to sejill sized missile. Add another stage on a sejill mixed with these new technologies and Iran easily has a minuteman ICBM ranged missile. But obviously for political reason, I doubt Iran would openly reveal such long ranger assets.

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## Philosopher

Carbon filament case for the missile:

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## VEVAK

Philosopher. said:


> I was thinking, just imagine if Iran applied all these new composite body and fuel technology to sejill sized missile. Add another stage on a sejill mixed with these new technologies and Iran easily has a minuteman ICBM ranged missile. But obviously for political reason, I doubt Iran would openly reveal such long ranger assets.



At this point what are they going to do? sanction our oil and assassinate our generals?
I think its about time Iran stops playing nice! 

Every time they cross a line we should cross a line!

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## Blue In Green

Philosopher. said:


> Carbon filament case for the missile:



Iran has what I like to call "Ferrari" Missiles lol.

You know 'carbon-fiber' body, all that jazz haha 

The next Iranian missile be dubbed, "Fateh-F1 series" xD!

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## Philosopher

VEVAK said:


> *I think its about time Iran stops playing nice!
> 
> Every time they cross a line we should cross a line!*



Agreed, but I believe there are two main political barriers. One is, the Americans and their allies using an Iranian ICBM to push for the idea Iran must be after developing a nuke by the using the fallacy of "ICBM has no other uses other than carrying a nuke". The other point is, the Americans have always used Iran as an excuse to base missile defence in Europe. Even though in reality it's based against the Russians (obviously the Russians know it too). If Iran develops an ICBM, Americans will without a doubt place more extensive missile defence on European soils. What will do to Iran-Russian relation? Also to Iran-Europe relations.

I think Iran is close to going down the unveiling ICBM road, but it's not there _just yet_. What will cause Iran to go across that line is not fully clear. Iran has its own calculations.

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## VEVAK

Philosopher. said:


> Agreed, but I believe there are two main political barriers. One is, the Americans and their allies using an Iranian ICBM to push for the idea Iran must be after developing a nuke by the using the fallacy of "ICBM has no other uses other than carrying a nuke". The other point is, the Americans have always used Iran as an excuse to base missile defence in Europe. Even though in reality it's based against the Russians (obviously the Russians know it too). If Iran develops an ICBM, Americans will without a doubt place more extensive missile defence on European soils. What will do to Iran-Russian relation? Also to Iran-Europe relations.
> 
> I think Iran is close to going down the unveiling ICBM road, but it's not there _just yet_. What will cause Iran to go across that line is not fully clear. Iran has its own calculations.



For hitting Europe 4,500km would be more than sufficient (From norther Iran to London is ~3700km) so we don't really need an ICBM for that!

As for Russia well the Americans have been putting missile defense across Europe for years now so the Russians by now know that with or without an Iranian ICBM's the Americans will be doing that regardless! So why should they care? It's not like they'll remove them if we agree not to build ICBM's! So I think the Russians know better! As for the Europeans anything beyond 5,500 km wouldn't really be targeting them anyways.

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## Philosopher

VEVAK said:


> For hitting Europe 4,500km would be more than sufficient (From norther Iran to London is ~3700km) so we don't really need an ICBM for that!



I am not saying Iran needs an ICBM to use against Europe, I am talking about US using Iran as an excuse to base its missiles in Europe.



> As for Russia well the Americans have been putting missile defense across Europe for years now so the Russians by now know that with or without an Iranian ICBM's the Americans will be doing that regardless! So why should they care? It's not like they'll remove them if we agree not to build ICBM's! So I think the Russians know better!



Well if Iran does test an ICBM and the Americans expand aggressively in Europe in missile defence deployment, I don't see the Russians being happy. Not that I personally care about it, but I am seeing this as a political barrier. Having said that, should Iran feel the need for an ICBM, it will go there regardless of opposition.



> As for the Europeans anything beyond 5,500 km wouldn't really be targeting them anyways.



Yes but it would still cover Europe and many of Europeans will freak out. Once again, not that I care. I have already stated in this forum that the West only understands force and that Iran should have gone for nukes and ICBM a long time ago. But our wish does not translate to reality, sadly!

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## PeeD

So it seems like this summer Iran will have it's first ICBM test flight with the Zoljanah "SLV".
The first stage will likely be a heavy high strength steel one to reduce performance and let it look too heavy for a mobile system.
In best case it is already compact with a smaller graphite first stage and all-solid up to the tip.
If it is all solid, it will effectively be a ASAT too.
Almost 10 years after Shahid Tehrani...

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> So it seems like this summer Iran will have it's first ICBM test flight with the Zoljanah "SLV".
> The first stage will likely be a heavy high strength steel one to reduce performance and let it look too heavy for a mobile system.
> In best case it is already compact with a smaller graphite first stage and all-solid up to the tip.
> If it is all solid, it will effectively be a ASAT too.
> Almost 10 years after Shahid Tehrani...



He didn't die in vain, that's all the matters now.

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> They are likely referring to the cost of the booster (Rocket engine and airframe) not the entire system plus the Raad-500 is not as accurate as the F-313 or the Mobine at least not yet
> 
> Also if you knew about all the facilities required in producing even the F-110 you would better understand why it's so much cheaper to produce
> 
> You also have to realize that Iran is NOT a capitalist country and no one is making money off selling the military these missiles nor adding R&D cost to the cost of the missile and the MOD is not only getting everything at cost but also material cost for them is as cheap as moving dirt!



Iran is NOT a capitalistic country? Really? Tell me what economic model does it run? Communism? Libertarian-ism? Lol Iran is a Mafia-istic country with socialism mixed in.

While they don’t have a massive military industrial complex that has to show profits every quarter (like the US) they certainly do NOT give things at cost to the military. That is the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Military gets funded by government and they Award contracts to a whatever firm(s) can demonstrate a product they want. That is why a lot of projects you see at military fairs or exhibitions in Iran NEVER move to mass production. The military branches simply do not want or can’t spend the money the company is asking for.

Iranian military firms def do try to make a profit because at the end of the day, that missile engineer or that missile technician is NOT there working for free. He could easily leave and go work at a military company anywhere else in the world. They get paid VERY WELL. In fact, Iran’s military cyber warfare hackers are making well over 6 figures in USD salary a year, which in Iran is an HANDSOME salary.

A Fateh-110 to be built could require parts from 10 or 100 different companies of which some are not government owned and merely government LINKED (big difference). And those companies are certainly not
giving things at cost to Iran or else they wouldn’t exist. 

Tomorrow @VEVAK will tell everyone when Iran buys one F-110 it gets one free 

A tomahawk cruise missile cost 1.4M, but in a few weeks You will say a F-110 only cost the same as nooneh sangak


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## PeeD

Ok, some facts about the Raad-500

- It is 1-1,5m shorter than the Fateh series and casing is fully composite: No metalic top cap and likely also no metalic end cap.

- Nose angle of RV is significantly steeper, which together with the increased range allows for a rather high terminal and impact velocity. It is hence suited to create deep craters.

-The warhead is also made of carbon fiber filament to make the most weight saving possible. This also benefits terminal RCS.

- Like Dezful and Zolfaghar, it has seperating RV

- Larger fins allow for better maneuvering capability for avoidance of ABM systems when traveling at upper atmospheric layers.

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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> Ok, some facts about the Raad-500
> 
> - It is 1-1,5m shorter than the Fateh series and casing is fully composite: No metalic top cap and likely also no metalic end cap.
> 
> - Nose angle of RV is significantly steeper, which together with the increased range allows for a rather high terminal and impact velocity. It is hence suited to create deep craters.
> 
> -The warhead is also made of carbon fiber filament to make the most weight saving possible. This also benefits terminal RCS.
> 
> - Like Dezful and Zolfaghar, it has seperating RV
> 
> - Larger fins allow for better maneuvering capability for avoidance of ABM systems when traveling at upper atmospheric layers.



What’s the difference between this and F-313. Is this merely a second gen F-313? F-313 was also composite body as well.

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> What’s the difference between this and F-313. Is this merely a second gen F-313? F-313 was also composite body as well.



it's smaller, lighter & cheaper so what else would you want?

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## Navigator

TheImmortal said:


> What’s the difference between this and F-313. Is this merely a second gen F-313? F-313 was also composite body as well.



F-313 was only with composite body of missile itself, Raad-500 get new engine also made from composite materials + separable guided warhead. Raad-500 generally looks like a faster rocket than the Fateh family.

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## Philosopher

And it is cheaper and easier to manufacture than Fateh-313. I was under the impression that fateh-313 production line was probably stopped after Zolfiqar was made, and same for zolfiqar when Dezfoul was made. This new Raad-500 however is quite an important development because I see it replacing: 

1) All Fateh-110s
2) Fateh-313
3) Zelzal family
4) Maybe even replace Khalife Fars if it can be used against ships?

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> What’s the difference between this and F-313. Is this merely a second gen F-313? F-313 was also composite body as well.



Of importance is to have small MaRVs that have smaller RCS and can maneuver better.

Then the design of the F-313 was still more complex with end caps and a composite matrix instead of a pure filament design. It seems Iran is now able to produce sufficiently high tensile strength carbon fiber, so that a matrix layout is not needed anymore.

So you now basically have a design that can be produced more easily. Key is a very good design (at the limits) and economic carbon fiber supply of sufficient quality.

20 years after the first Fateh, the fruit is that Iran is now able to optimize it in this way.

In should now be the world best TBM in terms of economy -- effect and technology (some).

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## Philosopher

@PeeD 

How far do you think Iran is from the following technologies:
1- Hypersonic glide vehicle
2- Hypersonic cruise missiles like zircon?

Any projects to develop these as far as you know?

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Of importance is to have small MaRVs that have smaller RCS and can maneuver better.
> 
> Then the design of the F-313 was still more complex with end caps and a composite matrix instead of a pure filament design. It seems Iran is now able to produce sufficiently high tensile strength carbon fiber, so that a matrix layout is not needed anymore.
> 
> So you now basically have a design that can be produced more easily. Key is a very good design (at the limits) and economic carbon fiber supply of sufficient quality.
> 
> 20 years after the first Fateh, the fruit is that Iran is now able to optimize it in this way.
> 
> In should now be the world best TBM in terms of economy -- effect and technology (some).



And except of the guidance an control pkg most of the missile can be produced at smaller facilities all across Iran with a fraction number of infrastructural requirements backing them for parts and materials!

Eventually the Raad-500 will be the fastest produced Iranian TBM! 

Mass producing a composite booster for a lighter low cost mid range solid fuel boosters should be next on the list!

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## PeeD

Philosopher. said:


> @PeeD
> 
> How far do you think Iran is from the following technologies:
> 1- Hypersonic glide vehicle
> 2- Hypersonic cruise missiles like zircon?
> 
> Any projects to develop these as far as you know?



It's a thermal material science and cost issue for Iran.
When will THAAD, Arrow-3 and SM-3 become such a hurdle that hypersonic cruise is felt necessary?

At the moment Irans lower spectrum "hypersonics" such as the Dezful are already there.
Longer range hypersonics, where thermal management becomes really tricky,... well if threats require them, we will see them in future.

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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> Iran is NOT a capitalistic country? Really? Tell me what economic model does it run? Communism? Libertarian-ism? Lol Iran is a Mafia-istic country with socialism mixed in.
> 
> While they don’t have a massive military industrial complex that has to show profits every quarter (like the US) they certainly do NOT give things at cost to the military. That is the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Military gets funded by government and they Award contracts to a whatever firm(s) can demonstrate a product they want. That is why a lot of projects you see at military fairs or exhibitions in Iran NEVER move to mass production. The military branches simply do not want or can’t spend the money the company is asking for.
> 
> Iranian military firms def do try to make a profit because at the end of the day, that missile engineer or that missile technician is NOT there working for free. He could easily leave and go work at a military company anywhere else in the world. They get paid VERY WELL. In fact, Iran’s military cyber warfare hackers are making well over 6 figures in USD salary a year, which in Iran is an HANDSOME salary.
> 
> A Fateh-110 to be built could require parts from 10 or 100 different companies of which some are not government owned and merely government LINKED (big difference). And those companies are certainly not
> giving things at cost to Iran or else they wouldn’t exist.
> 
> Tomorrow @VEVAK will tell everyone when Iran buys one F-110 it gets one free
> 
> A tomahawk cruise missile cost 1.4M, but in a few weeks You will say a F-110 only cost the same as nooneh sangak


lol pinokio speaks.oh your beloved us terrorist animals injured in sepah attacks became 100 right now ur nose must became 2 meter go to mr bensaw to cut it for you

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## PeeD

Time for some math:

Anyone wondered if it is worth it to go for a separating RV on the Raad-500, Zolfaghar and Dezful instead to do it like the Fateh, Iskander, LORA, N- and S- Korean "Iskanders" and all other Iskander like systems like China and Ukraine?

RCS and smaller size are benefits for a MaRV solution but what about impact energy when loosing the mass of the booster?

Well I did some simple kinetic energy calculations:

When Iran mastered economic production of high thermal and mechanical strength carbon-carbon composite nose tips, it became possible to build the Zolfaghar missile.
Same thing for the faster Dezful, which can use the same tip because its reduced weight thermobaric warhead.

It can be estimated that the RVs of both impact at mach 3-3,5.

My estimate for the Fateh series is mach 2,5 due to higher body friction during the whole pseudo ballistic flight.

Now we have the Raad-500: It also uses the C-C-C nosetip of the Zolfaghar and Dezful but it's RV nose angle is pointier indicating the goal of highest possible impact speed/energy. 
Hence the Raad-500 can be described as a high velocity missile of "just" 500km but with the impact speed/energy of the 1000km range Dezful.

Now to the numbers:
A Fateh-110D impacting at mach 2,5 with the whole burnt out missile (est. 1300kg) has about the same impact energy as a Raad-500 MaRV (without booster) impacting at mach 3,5.

So the choice is to go for a MaRV makes best sense if you are able to realize it technically. Iran is and only benefits from it: Less friction, less RCS, smaller physical size, more agile maneuvering capability, lower actuator/fin loads, higher impact speed and in many cases even impact energy.

With the Raad-500 casing and the other technologies, we will soon see a system beyond Dezful (just northern Israel), 1300km should become possible.

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## Philosopher

Yes, either this year or February next year we will 100% see the next gen version beyond Dezfoul with Israel reaching range. Incredible what Iran has done with this Fateh family.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Carbon filament skin is visible here:

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## AmirPatriot

PeeD said:


> With the Raad-500 casing and the other technologies, we will soon see a system beyond Dezful (just northern Israel), 1300km should become possible.



If you had told me 10 years ago that the Fateh-110 would develop into a 1300km range quasi-MRBM I would have said you are crazy.

But the improvements keep on coming. It would seem Dezful still lacks some of the technologies that even Raad-500 has. Not only is Raad-500 shorter, I've seen some rough measurements of its diameter showing it to be ~50 cm... Dezful is at least 68 cm.

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## Sineva

Yes,its an incredibly impressive achievement by any standards,even more so when one realises that it was based on an unguided artillery rocket,the zelzal!.Probably the most impressive thing tho was its sheer growth potential,where a short ranged missile was ultimately extended to over 3 times its original range!.This is almost unbelievable but yet its true and this was because the iranians realised that precision guidance offered more than just big improvements in accuracy it also offered potentially big improvements in extending range as well.
It will be very interesting indeed to see what the next generation of iranian all composite airframe missiles will achieve.

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## Sina-1

PeeD said:


> Time for some math:
> 
> Anyone wondered if it is worth it to go for a separating RV on the Raad-500, Zolfaghar and Dezful instead to do it like the Fateh, Iskander, LORA, N- and S- Korean "Iskanders" and all other Iskander like systems like China and Ukraine?
> 
> RCS and smaller size are benefits for a MaRV solution but what about impact energy when loosing the mass of the booster?
> 
> Well I did some simple kinetic energy calculations:
> 
> When Iran mastered economic production of high thermal and mechanical strength carbon-carbon composite nose tips, it became possible to build the Zolfaghar missile.
> Same thing for the faster Dezful, which can use the same tip because its reduced weight thermobaric warhead.
> 
> It can be estimated that the RVs of both impact at mach 3-3,5.
> 
> My estimate for the Fateh series is mach 2,5 due to higher body friction during the whole pseudo ballistic flight.
> 
> Now we have the Raad-500: It also uses the C-C-C nosetip of the Zolfaghar and Dezful but it's RV nose angle is pointier indicating the goal of highest possible impact speed/energy.
> Hence the Raad-500 can be described as a high velocity missile of "just" 500km but with the impact speed/energy of the 1000km range Dezful.
> 
> Now to the numbers:
> A Fateh-110D impacting at mach 2,5 with the whole burnt out missile (est. 1300kg) has about the same impact energy as a Raad-500 MaRV (without booster) impacting at mach 3,5.
> 
> So the choice is to go for a MaRV makes best sense if you are able to realize it technically. Iran is and only benefits from it: Less friction, less RCS, smaller physical size, more agile maneuvering capability, lower actuator/fin loads, higher impact speed and in many cases even impact energy.
> 
> With the Raad-500 casing and the other technologies, we will soon see a system beyond Dezful (just northern Israel), 1300km should become possible.


Awesome analysis as always! You’ve mentioned the production method to be much rationalized as well, compared to dezful. What potential strategic importance does the production have for Iran’s allies? Footprint of production site and logistics of critical components?

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## scimitar19

PeeD said:


> Now to the numbers:
> A Fateh-110D impacting at mach 2,5 with the whole burnt out missile (est. 1300kg) has about the same impact energy as a Raad-500 MaRV (without booster) impacting at mach 3,5.



I assume the missile is intended for sole surgically strike precision? If you want to count an energy converted to blast radius then I believe the type of ground plays a significant role as well. It makes sense to convert energy into blast radius on the hard solid ground such as gravel and rocky soil which is totally fine given the geographical terrain Iranian neighboring countries are located. In the case of muddy and soft terrain a good portion of the blast would be lost.

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## PeeD

Iran has a basket of targets which are again divided to targets that pose a offensive capability against Iran or not.
So it has a kind of map on where the highest threat assets are from Irans borders and the amount of them compared to each range.

Raad-500 and Qiam cover the bulk of those threatening assets, while Dezful only a small part, acting as outside theater, tactical fire support for Hezbollah in northern Israel. That's a special case where Hezbollahs own assets are degraded and Iran needs to provide fire support.

After the Dezful we will certainly see a all-carbon casing "Raad-1300" that covers all of Israel and can basically engage any tactical airpower that is able to reach Iran without air refueling.
So in the basket, all threats beyond 1300km from Irans border that remain and pose a threat are 5-10%.

I must remind here that Iran has 2000km Ghadr variants because they operate from mountain bases even east from Tehran, deep inside Iran. Tactical systems such as the Dezful and the future Raad variant would operate directly from border regions because of their small size and solid fuel (and remain survivable).

However the situation for the arsenal and production is not simple:
- Liquid department will argue (and rightfully) with their heavier payloads, lower lifetime costs, nuclear hardened feature. And of course with all the factories set up since 30 years for liquid fuel missile production (ultimately switching production to Khorramshahr).

- Factories producing HSS (steel) will argue that they worked 30 years to create those alloys for Fateh series. Setting up large factories and knowledge on metallurgy that must be preserved. Unless they are offered alternatives such as submarine industry, they will press to keep at least Fateh Mobin, Khalije Fars and Hormuz series in production. Maybe also arguing that high grade carbon fiber production capability will not meet needed material in the coming years.




Sina-1 said:


> Awesome analysis as always! You’ve mentioned the production method to be much rationalized as well, compared to dezful. What potential strategic importance does the production have for Iran’s allies? Footprint of production site and logistics of critical components?



Iran has the Sudan experience, where it exported technology and experience and now it is not benefiting it anymore.
So with highest technology it must be careful.
When I said Iran can now spend money on equipping even its tactical missiles with C-C-C nose tips its not because it is easier now, mainly its because it has set up a production line that with higher numbers and automatization allows for a more cost effective production.

What Gen. Hajizadeh is mentioning is IF you have access to high grade carbon fiber and IF you have 20 years of experience and science on that design to create a working all carbon fiber filament casing, then yes the production can be done at a much smaller factory.
However not to underestimate things: the high strength steel needed for the first Fateh was also nothing available on the open market, like the production line of high grade carbon fiber.
Providing closest allies such as the Hezbollah with a production line for the casing and supplying them with raw carbon fiber from Iran as well as all the critical components is what Hajizdadeh meant, obviously the casing is the only large and easier to spot part.

Imagine: a 3-missile off-road TEL of the size of a ordinary truck with 3 pin-point strike Raad-1300, estimated at 3200kg somewhere in the mountainous border regions.

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## Sina-1

PeeD said:


> - Factories producing HSS (steel) will argue that they worked 30 years to create those alloys for Fateh series. Setting up large factories and knowledge on metallurgy that must be preserved. Unless they are offered alternatives such as submarine industry, they will press to keep at least Fateh Mobin, Khalije Fars and Hormuz series in production. Maybe also arguing that high grade carbon fiber production capability will not meet needed material in the coming years.



Good point! There are so many fields that are in need of high quality steel that I think and hope that they will not try to "stay on board" because of legacy. As you mention submarines is need of high tensile strength steel. The same goes for turbines and various field in our aerospace. So I hope they see it as an opportunity and not loss to move on to new fields.
Furthermore there is a commercial value when Iran increases the quality of its steel production. Even right now Iran is doing wonders when it comes to metallurgy export. Hopefully and probably this trend will be amplified because of these advancements.



PeeD said:


> Iran has the Sudan experience, where it exported technology and experience and now it is not benefiting it anymore.
> So with highest technology it must be careful.



Agreed! We have seen far to often that "allies" can sometimes be short sighted, to put it diplomatically.



PeeD said:


> What Gen. Hajizadeh is mentioning is IF you have access to high grade carbon fiber and IF you have 20 years of experience and science on that design to create a working all carbon fiber filament casing, then yes the production can be done at a much smaller factory.
> However not to underestimate things: the high strength steel needed for the first Fateh was also nothing available on the open market, like the production line of high grade carbon fiber.
> Providing closest allies such as the Hezbollah with a production line for the casing and supplying them with raw carbon fiber from Iran as well as all the critical components is what Hajizdadeh meant, obviously the casing is the only large and easier to spot part.



That is what I wanted to you to explore! Of course you need the technological enabler in order to accomplish this "simplified production". However, it is in the end an IRGC decision if they want to transfer this technology or not. If they do, for example to Hezbollah, then it should be possible to have a production of these missiles outside of Irans borders, which is amongst others a type of power projection. Also it is one more insurance to hinder expansion plans that some of the countries in the region might have. 
What would be even more interesting is that the physical material needed to come from Iran is close to zero. Basically insuring the survivor of the ally even at 100% blockade.



PeeD said:


> Imagine: a 3-missile off-road TEL of the size of a ordinary truck with 3 pin-point strike Raad-1300, estimated at 3200kg somewhere in the mountainous border regions.



That would be a sight!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227641572356960263

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227647495641145350

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227647053536223232

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227650353199374336
Full PDF: https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/[EN]Letter dated 27 January 2020 from the Panel of Experts on Yemen addressed to the President of the Security Council - Final report of the Panel of Experts on Yemen (S-2020-70).pdf

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## Philosopher

We should not underestimate just how potent to these cheap cruise missiles like Quds can be, even for Iran itself. They probably cost relatively next to nothing and can unleash a deadly saturation attack! I wonder how many such systems Iran has developed but kept hidden from the cameras.

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## Stryker1982

Something like a 2000km Tomahawk would cost 1million$. How much would something like a Quds cost? $50k-80k?

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## Philosopher

Stryker1982 said:


> Something like a 2000km Tomahawk would cost 1million$. How much would something like a Quds cost? $50k-80k?



Most expensive thing would probably be the engine? It is a micro engine, would that really cost in the 10ks? I would not be surprised if the price is even less than what you said!

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## Myself

Philosopher. said:


> Most expensive thing would probably be the engine? It is a micro engine, would that really cost in the 10ks? I would not be surprised if the price is even less than what you said!


I remember when I was still in school; my advisor put me in charge of purchasing a gas chromatography analyzer for his lab. We got two quotes from two different vendors, and the price range was roughly $ 55,000 to $ 60,000 (for not a top trim GC/MS). After I entered the req. number in the system, he called me to his office and I noticed an angry face of him. He asked whether or not I had negotiated to cut the cost. I said “no sir! This is a scientific equipment and the price looks good to me after some internet searching I did.” He replied: “ ....! With $ 60,000 you can buy an E-class Mercedes Benz with all those systems including the chassis, engine, fuel system, brakes, suspension, electronics, control systems, monitor, etc.”. I was surprised. He continued:”The real cost of these analyzers at most is 1/10” of what they charge their customers, and the main reason is the cost of IP. So, go and call them to give us a good discount”. I went back to the lab and looked at one of the existing units. Literally it was nothing: a temperature-controlled electric oven, a capillary column, a detector made of the coated SS, and of course some instrumentation including the flow sensors, regulators, RTDs, etc. very simple! What I am trying to convey is that the asked price for a High-Tech product is always way more that the required cost for fabricating it. At the end I convinced my advisor to fix the problems of the existing GC instead of spending so much money to buy a new one.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227860020391530497

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228028577079332866





^ Ghaem PGM





^ Fajr-5 artillery rocket

Source: http://defanews.ir/node/514025

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## Philosopher

Given the improvements we've seen recently. I guess it is now possible to see 333mm (or similar sized) MLRS systems with ≈ 300km range than can cover the Persian Gulf and used in saturation attacks against surface and ground fleets.

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## Arminkh

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228028577079332866
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ Ghaem PGM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ Fajr-5 artillery rocket
> 
> Source: http://defanews.ir/node/514025


Let me guess: name of the product, serial number and manufacturer name was printed on all of them in Persian?

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Iran has a basket of targets which are again divided to targets that pose a offensive capability against Iran or not.
> So it has a kind of map on where the highest threat assets are from Irans borders and the amount of them compared to each range.
> 
> Raad-500 and Qiam cover the bulk of those threatening assets, while Dezful only a small part, acting as outside theater, tactical fire support for Hezbollah in northern Israel. That's a special case where Hezbollahs own assets are degraded and Iran needs to provide fire support.
> 
> After the Dezful we will certainly see a all-carbon casing "Raad-1300" that covers all of Israel and can basically engage any tactical airpower that is able to reach Iran without air refueling.
> So in the basket, all threats beyond 1300km from Irans border that remain and pose a threat are 5-10%.
> 
> I must remind here that Iran has 2000km Ghadr variants because they operate from mountain bases even east from Tehran, deep inside Iran. Tactical systems such as the Dezful and the future Raad variant would operate directly from border regions because of their small size and solid fuel (and remain survivable).
> 
> However the situation for the arsenal and production is not simple:
> - Liquid department will argue (and rightfully) with their heavier payloads, lower lifetime costs, nuclear hardened feature. And of course with all the factories set up since 30 years for liquid fuel missile production (ultimately switching production to Khorramshahr).
> 
> - Factories producing HSS (steel) will argue that they worked 30 years to create those alloys for Fateh series. Setting up large factories and knowledge on metallurgy that must be preserved. Unless they are offered alternatives such as submarine industry, they will press to keep at least Fateh Mobin, Khalije Fars and Hormuz series in production. Maybe also arguing that high grade carbon fiber production capability will not meet needed material in the coming years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran has the Sudan experience, where it exported technology and experience and now it is not benefiting it anymore.
> So with highest technology it must be careful.
> When I said Iran can now spend money on equipping even its tactical missiles with C-C-C nose tips its not because it is easier now, mainly its because it has set up a production line that with higher numbers and automatization allows for a more cost effective production.
> 
> What Gen. Hajizadeh is mentioning is IF you have access to high grade carbon fiber and IF you have 20 years of experience and science on that design to create a working all carbon fiber filament casing, then yes the production can be done at a much smaller factory.
> However not to underestimate things: the high strength steel needed for the first Fateh was also nothing available on the open market, like the production line of high grade carbon fiber.
> Providing closest allies such as the Hezbollah with a production line for the casing and supplying them with raw carbon fiber from Iran as well as all the critical components is what Hajizdadeh meant, obviously the casing is the only large and easier to spot part.
> 
> Imagine: a 3-missile off-road TEL of the size of a ordinary truck with 3 pin-point strike Raad-1300, estimated at 3200kg somewhere in the mountainous border regions.



I don't see the Raad-500 as a replacement for the F-110 and F-313 at least not until production, accuracy and payload can match that of the Mobin and Khalij e Fars …. For now they are simply a compliment to those systems and in the long run once production increases we can easily predict that most of the equipment used to produce the F-110 & F-313 will likely be upgraded and modified to increase Zolfaghar or Dezful production and as you said heavier alloys that would be considered outdated for missiles can still be modified to be used on a rather long list of other weapons systems.....

Also Salman engine is just small enough to be put on a Qiam so if they reduced the payload from the current ~800kg warhead to a lighter ~350kg Glide capable RV with a ~400kg 2nd stage with a modified version of the Salmon it may be just enough to get us to +1300km with a rather vast stock of Qiam's (I wonder if such a mix has ever been attempted)
Although preferably the more sound option is a larger solid fuel 1st stage booster lighter and cheaper than the Sejil designed specifically for the Salmon but I'm just wondering until that comes to pass and a large enough stock is produced would the Qiam stock be capable of such a thing?

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## Sineva

Anyone got any clues as to what this may be?.The pic dates back to at least early 2013 probably earlier.

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## GWXP

*IRAN’S SOLID-PROPELLANT SLV PROGRAM IS ALIVE AND KICKING

https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/arc...-propellant-slv-program-is-alive-and-kicking/*

Based on estimation from the article...based on the weight of concrete blocks...rough thrust estimate of future solid fuel engines that are being developed in Shahroud:





For comparison:

European rocket -Vega SLV:

payload to LEO 2,5 tons

First stage thrust: 226 tons
Second stage thrust: 87 tons
Third stage thrust: 26 tons
Fourth stage thrust: 0,2 tons

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## Sina-1

GWXP said:


> *IRAN’S SOLID-PROPELLANT SLV PROGRAM IS ALIVE AND KICKING
> 
> https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/arc...-propellant-slv-program-is-alive-and-kicking/*
> 
> Based on estimation from the article...based on the weight of concrete blocks...rough thrust estimate of future solid fuel engines that are being developed in Shahroud:
> View attachment 606224
> 
> 
> For comparison:
> 
> European rocket -Vega SLV:
> 
> payload to LEO 2,5 tons
> 
> First stage thrust: 226 tons
> Second stage thrust: 87 tons
> Third stage thrust: 26 tons
> Fourth stage thrust: 0,2 tons


This was an awesome read, thanks for posting!


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## TheImmortal

Sineva said:


> Anyone got any clues as to what this may be?.The pic dates back to at least early 2013 probably earlier.



Isn’t that a anti-helicopter weapon for mobile units?

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## Sina-1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229201835962949632

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229201432164700165

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229201458899238913

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229201856569593857

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229201898453917697

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229201926522146816

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229201939461599232

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## Bahram Esfandiari

https://www.aparat.com/v/Emuwh

The terminal velocity of Sedjil MRBM is stated at 4300 meters per second which is equal to Mach 12.5!!!

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## yavar



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## Blue In Green

Khorramshahr-2 looks mean man. What an absolute beast of a missile, just look at the size of that thing!!!

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


>



Sejil is such a beauty, I hope this missile is still there and constantly upgraded
Khorramshahr is a beast, Im curious how the "big mamas" look like 


This post is also interesting

if you look at the first clip, the "final phase" of the impact, you see how aggressively the missile is capable of "correcting" its path

google translated:

"New footage from the experiment released shows the maneuvering cap being maneuvered, albeit in the final phase because the lift-to-drag ratio is reduced to a free fall cap, but the clip seems to be capable of maneuvering the warhead so much. Created."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229336956364038145

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## Sina-1

Another spot on analysis (see the whole thread!)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229395087865634816

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## Draco.IMF

Sina-1 said:


> Another spot on analysis (see the whole thread!)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229395087865634816



Is he saying that the missiles warhead didnt work (3rd and 4th picture) and thats why so "little" damage was done to this buidling (5m beton) ?

Cant believe it, a missile, only with its kinetic energy (several tons with a speed of Mach ~ 3-4) should have done more demage to 5m beton, right?


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## Sina-1

Draco.IMF said:


> Is he saying that the missiles warhead didnt work (3rd and 4th picture) and thats why so "little" damage was done to this buidling (5m beton) ?


Yes that’s what he saying!


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## Arminkh

Sina-1 said:


> Another spot on analysis (see the whole thread!)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229395087865634816


It can't be. That could be an old Mark from a small rocket.

Even if we assume the missile warhead only weighs 500 kg coming at Mach 4 the kinematic energy alone is equivalent to 110kg TNT all concentrated at a very small area.

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## Stryker1982

Sina-1 said:


> Another spot on analysis (see the whole thread!)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229395087865634816




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229442464852959232

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## Sina-1

Arminkh said:


> It can't be. That could be an old Mark from a small rocket.
> 
> Even if we assume the missile warhead only weighs 500 kg coming at Mach 4 the kinematic energy alone is equivalent to 110kg TNT all concentrated at a very small area.


I’m no expert! But, the first pic could be that the missiles potential energy is converted to “dig” A very deep hole into the ground instead of creating a crater.
The second one is a major steel structure that is melted like butter at impact. See below pic

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229465746889158657

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## Philosopher

Khoramshahr has a 1800kg warhead!! Imagine if Iran used this missile on the US air base. Instead of concussions, their heads would have come right off!

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## Stryker1982

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229535640427147264

See this lovely thread!

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## VEVAK

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...-it-could-someday-carry-nuclear-weapon-124231

Here what was interesting to me:

US so called Military annalist are slowly wakening to the vastness of Iran's actual stock although to get to 55,000 surface to surface missile you'd have calculate in a whole range of Iranian Missiles much shorter ranged than Iran's Fateh-110 but still! 

However, although they are wakening up to our stock it would seem they remain utterly clueless about almost everything else!

David Axe in his analysis puts Shahab-1 in the category of one of the larger stocks when in reality the Shahab-1 is one of least produced comparatively because it's a missile we haven't produced for almost 2 decades and today Iran wouldn't even waste fuel on them! However at the very least Its apparent that they are now aware that the Fateh class has been the largest produced Iranian BM to date. Although from their perspective claiming that the largest produced Iranian missile is actually Shahab-1 or even the Shahab-2 would give them the opportunity to dump off the Patriot system on the Arab countries who listen to them and don't know any better.... since that's about all the patriot system seems to be good for! 

It also still seem that they are either still rather clueless or intentionally lying (out of fear of losing billions in sales to Arabs) when it comes to our longer ranged missiles like the Sejil-2 and how Iran was able to increase the accuracy of its missiles to a point that the idiot tried to tie in scud guidance system to the Fateh class.

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## Sina-1

VEVAK said:


> dump off the Patriot system on the Arab countries who listen to them and don't know any better.... since that's about all the patriot system seems to be good for!



dude, PG arabs are not idiots. Granted they are slaves and must listen to their masters, but even they know that patriot is a piece of crap system. However they are also incompetent so even if they would receive a perfect weapon they would still find a way to screw it up.



VEVAK said:


> how Iran was able to increase the accuracy of its missiles to a point that the idiot tried to tie in scud guidance system to the Fateh class



you know, the propaganda rhetoric is still of the stupid mullah type. So of course the accuracy of our missiles is either miraculously still due to scud-legacy or alternatively ALOT of foreign help! Haha, our engineering force is seemingly just turning kababs!

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## GWXP

55000 missiles estimate mainly consists of Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rockets....ballistic missile arsenal is much smaller

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## Mithridates

lol guys do you remember that members like legend used to mock Iranian anti ship ballistic missiles?? well it seems like their master (USA) is also tries to make such weapon with their HIMARS rocket.

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## TheImmortal

Mithridates said:


> lol guys do you remember that members like legend used to mock Iranian anti ship ballistic missiles?? well it seems like their master (USA) is also tries to make such weapon with their HIMARS rocket.



Himars is a MLRS system not a ballistic missile system.

Without a guidance system in warhead it’s a rocket that flies on a trajectory and traditional gravity based physics.



Sina-1 said:


> dude, PG arabs are not idiots. Granted they are slaves and must listen to their masters, but even they know that patriot is a piece of crap system. However they are also incompetent so even if they would receive a perfect weapon they would still find a way to screw it up.
> 
> 
> 
> you know, the propaganda rhetoric is still of the stupid mullah type. So of course the accuracy of our missiles is either miraculously still due to scud-legacy or alternatively ALOT of foreign help! Haha, our engineering force is seemingly just turning kababs!



Patriot is not a “piece of crap system”. I am sure @PeeD would also disagree with your assessment.

In fact since 1990 Patriot Missile system has performed rather well against SCUD and Ballistic missiles. It’s main detractors are cost of interceptors and operational cost.

If Patriot system is a “piece of garbage” then so is Bavar-373 and S-300 and nearly every other modern long range air defense system to exist because they all operate on similar basic principles and use similar technology to track and bring down targets.

Every air defense has its vulnerabilities, weakness, etc. to build the perfect air defense system is to build the perfect warship, fighter jet, etc. it’s impractical and costly.


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## VEVAK

GWXP said:


> 55000 missiles estimate mainly consists of Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rockets....ballistic missile arsenal is much smaller



In response I would says Irans rocket Artillery stock including of course rockets smaller than the Fajr-3 far exceeds 55000 easily....

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## VEVAK

Sina-1 said:


> dude, PG arabs are not idiots. Granted they are slaves and must listen to their masters, but even they know that patriot is a piece of crap system. However they are also incompetent so even if they would receive a perfect weapon they would still find a way to screw it up.
> 
> 
> 
> you know, the propaganda rhetoric is still of the stupid mullah type. So of course the accuracy of our missiles is either miraculously still due to scud-legacy or alternatively ALOT of foreign help! Haha, our engineering force is seemingly just turning kababs!








Why would it be so hard to believe that our guys after working to improve on the Fateh class for well over a decade could achieve accuracy that we did at Ain al Assad considering we didn't actually have to invent or re-invent the wheel (in terms of subsystems) to do it! it's not like our missile program was born yesterday! And we sure as hell aren't short of world class engineers!

As for PG Arabs take a good look because people like Michael Elleman is exactly the type of ppl they were paying money to listen too.






This is a guy who even up to 5-6 years ago would go around and get paid to tell people that for Iran to hit his office in Bahrain (250 km away) we basically would need to fire 1000 to 10000 missile. 

And its not a question of whether Arab are stupid or not! Of course Arabs ppl aren't stupid! However if you look at our own history when we were a puppet sate you'll understand that this has more to do with the bubble the Americans have their leadership in.....

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## Stryker1982

VEVAK said:


> This is a guy who even up to 5-6 years ago would go around and get paid to tell people that for Iran to hit his office in Bahrain (250 km away) we basically would need to fire 1000 to 10000 missile.



This is the best and most laughable part of his analysis. He still insists to this day Iran has a CEP of 100m for Fateh. One Fateh in his office would be nice, or a small Quds CM, he's not worth the use of a beautiful Fateh

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## VEVAK

https://southfront.org/analysis-of-the-iranian-missile-strikes-on-ayn-al-asad-airbase/


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## VEVAK

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="fa" dir="rtl">سردار حاجی زاده: کسی که باعث شد موشکی تا این حد گسترش پیدا بکند و همچنان گمنام است، دکتر قالیباف است...<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/انتقام_سخت?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#انتقام_سخت</a><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/موشک?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#موشک</a> <a href="https://t.co/dlicRqnw66">pic.twitter.com/dlicRqnw66</a></p>&mdash; شوفر (@Seyedma2169) <a href="

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226901619918307332">February 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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## Smarana Mitra

VEVAK said:


> Why would it be so hard to believe that our guys after working to improve on the Fateh class for well over a decade could achieve accuracy that we did at Ain al Assad considering we didn't actually have to invent or re-invent the wheel (in terms of subsystems) to do it! it's not like our missile program was born yesterday! And we sure as hell aren't short of world class engineers!
> 
> As for PG Arabs take a good look because people like Michael Elleman is exactly the type of ppl they were paying money to listen too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a guy who even up to 5-6 years ago would go around and get paid to tell people that for Iran to hit his office in Bahrain (250 km away) we basically would need to fire 1000 to 10000 missile.
> 
> And its not a question of whether Arab are stupid or not! Of course Arabs ppl aren't stupid! However if you look at our own history when we were a puppet sate you'll understand that this has more to do with the bubble the Americans have their leadership in.....



Iran may have worked hard in propulsion and other mechanical aspects. But semiconductor is the key to guidance. Unless Iran can develop semiconductor technology of at least 3um node, it will not be possible to increase accuracy. Off the shelf computer chips can't be used for guidance as the ballistic missile travels in very high speed and the temperature will spike beyond tolerable limits. So, it requires toughened semiconductors which can withstand these extreme conditions. No country will sell such technology and hence it has to be indigenous.

Iran does not have the semiconductor technology to have high accuracy. Iranian semiconductor technology is similar to 1960s in USA and hence the missile accuracy can be considered to be similar to USA missiles of 1970s. Even before semiconductor era in 1970s, there were still rudimentary guidance which was used for space shuttle etc but can't be considered to have high accuracy while guiding a ballistic missile. With the level of semiconductor technology Iran has, the CEP will 100m for a ~300km ballistic missile. Iran can at best make cruise missiles travelling at 0.7Mach with off the shelf semiconductor chipsets. At speeds of 0.7 Mach (~200m/s), the heating effect is low and hence off the shelf semiconductors chipsets of computers can handle that. If it wants highly accurate supersonic missiles, then there is no substitute for semiconductor technology.


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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="fa" dir="rtl">سردار حاجی زاده: کسی که باعث شد موشکی تا این حد گسترش پیدا بکند و همچنان گمنام است، دکتر قالیباف است...<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/انتقام_سخت?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#انتقام_سخت</a><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/موشک?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#موشک</a> <a href="https://t.co/dlicRqnw66">pic.twitter.com/dlicRqnw66</a></p>&mdash; شوفر (@Seyedma2169) <a href="
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226901619918307332">February 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



What a damn joke, Hajizadeh praising Qalibaf a known criminal and one of the heads of corruption in Tehran!

Hajizadeh is a known propagandist! Between him and Salami I don’t know which one is a bigger joke to hear speak. Salami is the “John McCain” of IRGC loves to talk tough and make outlandish claims and Hajizadeh just loves to hear himself speak while spreading his propaganda.

The real military minds are behind the scenes fighting and building. These guys might as well be labeled PR reps.

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## Bahram Esfandiari

TheImmortal said:


> What a damn joke, Hajizadeh praising Qalibaf a known criminal and one of the heads of corruption in Tehran!
> 
> Hajizadeh is a known propagandist! Between him and Salami I don’t know which one is a bigger joke to hear speak. Salami is the “John McCain” of IRGC loves to talk tough and make outlandish claims and Hajizadeh just loves to hear himself speak while spreading his propaganda.
> 
> The real military minds are behind the scenes fighting and building. These guys might as well be labeled PR reps.



Qalibaf was the commander of the IRGC Air Force in the late 1990s. I take Sardar Hajizadeh's word over an egotistical clown like you any day of the week!

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## PeeD

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran may have worked hard in propulsion and other mechanical aspects. But semiconductor is the key to guidance. Unless Iran can develop semiconductor technology of at least 3um node, it will not be possible to increase accuracy. Off the shelf computer chips can't be used for guidance as the ballistic missile travels in very high speed and the temperature will spike beyond tolerable limits. So, it requires toughened semiconductors which can withstand these extreme conditions. No country will sell such technology and hence it has to be indigenous.
> 
> Iran does not have the semiconductor technology to have high accuracy. Iranian semiconductor technology is similar to 1960s in USA and hence the missile accuracy can be considered to be similar to USA missiles of 1970s. Even before semiconductor era in 1970s, there were still rudimentary guidance which was used for space shuttle etc but can't be considered to have high accuracy while guiding a ballistic missile. With the level of semiconductor technology Iran has, the CEP will 100m for a ~300km ballistic missile. Iran can at best make cruise missiles travelling at 0.7Mach with off the shelf semiconductor chipsets. At speeds of 0.7 Mach (~200m/s), the heating effect is low and hence off the shelf semiconductors chipsets of computers can handle that. If it wants highly accurate supersonic missiles, then there is no substitute for semiconductor technology.



Mate, release your frustration on the somewhat slow pace of Indian missile development somewhere else... this is the main Iranian sticky thread on missiles.

At least when you would have argued with g-forces that occur instead of the temperature argument...

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## Smarana Mitra

PeeD said:


> Mate, release your frustration on the somewhat slow pace of Indian missile development somewhere else... this is the main Iranian sticky thread on missiles.
> 
> At least when you would have argued with g-forces that occur instead of the temperature argument...


 A chip is just a couple square centimetre in size and is packaged well. It has very little effect of G-forces. The real problem is in temperature for chipsets. The problem of G-forces is applicable for mechanical parts and can be rectified by repeated tests. It is just a matter of making the joints strong and slightly increasing weight to increase sturdiness to reduce shocks from G-Forces. But the main point here is semiconductor guidance. Off the shelf semiconductors can't be used in supersonic missiles simply because the heat generated by fast burning of fuel as well as heat from friction with air destroys the commercial chipsets.

Who is showing frustration here? India started semiconductor development in 1980s and India has been able to make accurate missiles by late 1990s. This is 2020. I am speaking strictly of Iranian missiles development and its relation with semiconductor technology. Iran can't make accurate missile until it develops semiconductor.


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## yavar

GWXP said:


> 55000 missiles estimate mainly consists of Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 rockets....ballistic missile arsenal is much smaller


I am very sorry to dis point you

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## aryobarzan

Smarana Mitra said:


> A chip is just a couple square centimetre in size and is packaged well. It has very little effect of G-forces. The real problem is in temperature for chipsets. The problem of G-forces is applicable for mechanical parts and can be rectified by repeated tests. It is just a matter of making the joints strong and slightly increasing weight to increase sturdiness to reduce shocks from G-Forces. But the main point here is semiconductor guidance. Off the shelf semiconductors can't be used in supersonic missiles simply because the heat generated by fast burning of fuel as well as heat from friction with air destroys the commercial chipsets.
> 
> Who is showing frustration here? India started semiconductor development in 1980s and India has been able to make accurate missiles by late 1990s. This is 2020. I am speaking strictly of Iranian missiles development and its relation with semiconductor technology. Iran can't make accurate missile until it develops semiconductor.


I worked in semiconductor industry and here are few things to know:

1- there are no specific Fab lines for military grade chips..the Mil Std chips have higher temp ratings due to their packaging (ceramic vs plastic)..G forces as you said it yourself have no effect on a chip set.
2- I am not familiar with current Iranian capabilities regarding the actual level of semiconductor manufacturing however I can tell you that in in late 1970s Iran did have IC manufacturing plant and clean rooms in Shiraz that was mostly bonding and packaging set up ..what has happened since then I do not know but judging from the incredible progress they made in other fields I can make some educated guesses.
3- China is a logical place for Iran to obtain Fab lines if they wanted to but generally these days you can buy any semiconductor packaged as per your specs in thousands. Any additional environmental (heat removal or freeze prevention) from the electronic modules are achieved by ruggedizing your enclosures.

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## Philosopher

Smarana Mitra said:


> Who is showing frustration here? India started semiconductor development in 1980s and India has been able to make accurate missiles by late 1990s. This is 2020. I am speaking strictly of Iranian missiles development and its relation with semiconductor technology.




First you had claimed Iran's Fateh-110 was a "liquid fuelled" ballistic missile. Then couple of weeks ago you were claiming the missiles Iran used on the US base were "300km ranged Fateh". Each time you're made out to be ignorant of basic facts you run and hide then come back with the same comments like you're doing in this thread. You seem to have an obsession with being proven wrong and humiliated?



> Iran can't make accurate missile until it develops semiconductor.



And this is another outlandish statement that we can add to your growing list. Iran has not only made accurate missiles, but literally used them in practise agains US bases etc. So I have no idea what on earth you're talking about.

You seem to be upset that India cannot build such accurate missiles. Perhaps if you focused on building your own industry instead of importing almost everything then you can go somewhere.

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## Sineva

PeeD said:


> Mate, release your frustration on the somewhat slow pace of Indian missile development somewhere else... this is the main Iranian sticky thread on missiles.
> 
> At least when you would have argued with g-forces that occur instead of the temperature argument...


LOL!!
I was just thinking he would`ve been a great candidate for an analyst position at a right wing western think tank[CSIS perhaps?].He`d be able to give perfect "guesstimates" on why iranian missiles couldnt possibly have ceps better than hundreds of meters.Why I`m sure that he and anthony cordesman would get on together like a house on fire.
Speaking of cordesman,heres on of his "guesstimations" from just last year [may 30/2019] where he bases quite a bit of it on the relative amount of IMPORTS of military hardware vis a vis iran and the gulfies,and that because of this the gulfies must be much better armed,he doesnt even seem to consider taking into account the possibility that iran may be self sufficient in many areas of procurement thanks to its own military industrial complex.If I hadnt looked at the date I would`ve sworn that this had been written at least a decade prior.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/iranian-missile-threat

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## Mithridates

Smarana Mitra said:


> A chip is just a couple square centimetre in size and is packaged well. It has very little effect of G-forces. The real problem is in temperature for chipsets. The problem of G-forces is applicable for mechanical parts and can be rectified by repeated tests. It is just a matter of making the joints strong and slightly increasing weight to increase sturdiness to reduce shocks from G-Forces. But the main point here is semiconductor guidance. Off the shelf semiconductors can't be used in supersonic missiles simply because the heat generated by fast burning of fuel as well as heat from friction with air destroys the commercial chipsets.
> 
> Who is showing frustration here? India started semiconductor development in 1980s and India has been able to make accurate missiles by late 1990s. This is 2020. I am speaking strictly of Iranian missiles development and its relation with semiconductor technology. Iran can't make accurate missile until it develops semiconductor.


dude if the heat is a problem they can use heat shields to protect circuits or use cooling systems.
also there is a logic named proving by contradiction. it states that if our missiles are accurate, they will hit their target with accuracy. if they are not accurate they will not hit their targets with accuracy. as we know the missiles hit their targets with precise accuracy so we can say they have suitable electronics.



Philosopher. said:


> First you had claimed Iran's Fateh-110 was a "liquid fuelled" ballistic missile. Then couple of weeks ago you were claiming the missiles Iran used on the US base were "300km ranged Fateh". Each time you're made out to be ignorant of basic facts you run and hide then come back with the same comments like you're doing in this thread. You seem to have an obsession with being proven wrong and humiliated?
> 
> 
> 
> And this is another outlandish statement that we can add to your growing list. Iran has not only made accurate missiles, but literally used them in practise agains US bases etc. So I have no idea what on earth you're talking about.
> 
> You seem to be upset that India cannot build such accurate missiles. Perhaps if you focused on building your own industry instead of importing almost everything then you can go somewhere.


possibly he is digging for information.

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## PeeD

aryobarzan said:


> G forces as you said it yourself have no effect on a chip set.



G forces are a huge problem for guidance electronics of MaRV. In the past avionics were even submerged in oil to survive 100-300 g of re-entry.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Mate, release your frustration on the somewhat slow pace of Indian missile development somewhere else... this is the main Iranian sticky thread on missiles.
> 
> At least when you would have argued with g-forces that occur instead of the temperature argument...



Why even bother with someone how appears to be under the delusion that Iran of all places has no access to computer's processor's laptops.... apparently we need to produce high end processors.... to have access to them!

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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> What a damn joke, Hajizadeh praising Qalibaf a known criminal and one of the heads of corruption in Tehran!
> 
> Hajizadeh is a known propagandist! Between him and Salami I don’t know which one is a bigger joke to hear speak. Salami is the “John McCain” of IRGC loves to talk tough and make outlandish claims and Hajizadeh just loves to hear himself speak while spreading his propaganda.
> 
> The real military minds are behind the scenes fighting and building. These guys might as well be labeled PR reps.



Ain al Assad happened what 10 months after Trump claimed to have hacked Iranian missiles? LOL! Hajizadeh said he was lying and fools like you(The brainwashed BBC crowd) turned and said that it was actually Hajizadeh that was lying and that he was nothing more than a regime propagandist! And what happened? LOL! PPL like you never learn! 
Not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 but 5 American UAV'S get hacked and captured by Iran and fools like you still can't see the truth! So of course when Hajizadeh gives credit to his predecessor ppl like you (brainwashed BBC crowd) will have a hard time accepting it! Plus its not like fools like you vote in our elections! So believe what u like!

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> Ain al Assad happened what 10 months after Trump claimed to have hacked Iranian missiles? LOL! Hajizadeh said he was lying and fools like you(The brainwashed BBC crowd) turned and said that it was actually Hajizadeh that was lying and that he was nothing more than a regime propagandist! And what happened? LOL! PPL like you never learn!
> Not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 but 5 American UAV'S get hacked and captured by Iran and fools like you still can't see the truth! So of course when Hajizadeh gives credit to his predecessor ppl like you (brainwashed BBC crowd) will have a hard time accepting it! Plus its not like fools like you vote in our elections! So believe what u like!



Not sure what you are blabbering about. Your incoherent speech is worse than usual. Hajizadeh is nothing but a propagandist, he has no value to the IRGC. Neither does Salami.

Not sure what any of your nonsense has to do with the fact this man is praising Qalibaf a known corruption and extortionist! You completely ignored the topic and went on and on about Trump and Iran missiles and about hacked UAVs. Trump is also a known propagandist!

So don’t sit and cry about Iran Khodro corruption and then also turn a blind eye to the mafia bazi that is IRGC conglomeration. Those in the know in Iran know what they are talking about while fools like you sit on the outside looking in! That is all I will say on that matter.

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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> A chip is just a couple square centimetre in size and is packaged well. It has very little effect of G-forces. The real problem is in temperature for chipsets. The problem of G-forces is applicable for mechanical parts and can be rectified by repeated tests. It is just a matter of making the joints strong and slightly increasing weight to increase sturdiness to reduce shocks from G-Forces. But the main point here is semiconductor guidance. Off the shelf semiconductors can't be used in supersonic missiles simply because the heat generated by fast burning of fuel as well as heat from friction with air destroys the commercial chipsets.
> 
> Who is showing frustration here? India started semiconductor development in 1980s and India has been able to make accurate missiles by late 1990s. This is 2020. I am speaking strictly of Iranian missiles development and its relation with semiconductor technology. Iran can't make accurate missile until it develops semiconductor.


You knew we pray our missiles to hit target and let tell you one things evidence shows that our prayer is far more powerful than those chips you guys use.

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## Smarana Mitra

aryobarzan said:


> there are no specific Fab lines for military grade chips..the Mil Std chips have higher temp ratings due to their packaging (ceramic vs plastic).


The fab used is same for military and civilian goods but the architecture is very different. This involves derating or leaving spaces between rows/columns of transistors in chips. This menas that a chip which could have workd in 2GhZ clock rate will now be working on 0.5GhZ or 1GhZ as lot of spacing is given to reduce short circuit. The packaging is also made more rigid and insulating. But that alone is not enough. It also requries derating the semiconductor in such a way that the semiconductor does not short circuit at high temperatures.



aryobarzan said:


> I am not familiar with current Iranian capabilities regarding the actual level of semiconductor manufacturing however I can tell you that in in late 1970s Iran did have IC manufacturing plant and clean rooms in Shiraz that was mostly bonding and packaging set up ..what has happened since then I do not know but judging from the incredible progress they made in other fields I can make some educated guesses.


Packaging is not a big technology. Fabrication is the real technology. Packaging is a simpler job and doesn't need the precision needed to make ICs to the scale of nanometres or micrometer. Iran never had any fabrication facility.



aryobarzan said:


> China is a logical place for Iran to obtain Fab lines if they wanted to but generally these days you can buy any semiconductor packaged as per your specs in thousands. Any additional environmental (heat removal or freeze prevention) from the electronic modules are achieved by ruggedizing your enclosures


Selling fabrication technology is too big a risk which someone will take only if there is a major strategic reward. What does Iran have to offer China to be able to buy such a huge technology device? Moreover, you can't buy any semiconductor, especially derated ones used in military items.



Philosopher. said:


> First you had claimed Iran's Fateh-110 was a "liquid fuelled" ballistic missile. Then couple of weeks ago you were claiming the missiles Iran used on the US base were "300km ranged Fateh". Each time you're made out to be ignorant of basic facts you run and hide then come back with the same comments like you're doing in this thread. You seem to have an obsession with being proven wrong and humiliated?


When did I say that USA was not struck by Iran? I am only saying that Iran used GPS or some other guidance system which is otherwise unreliable in war time. The real accuracy of missile is in using INS. Using cheap GPS trackers is not really a display of accuracy.



Hack-Hook said:


> You knew we pray our missiles to hit target and let tell you one things evidence shows that our prayer is far more powerful than those chips you guys use.





Mithridates said:


> dude if the heat is a problem they can use heat shields to protect circuits or use cooling systems.
> also there is a logic named proving by contradiction. it states that if our missiles are accurate, they will hit their target with accuracy. if they are not accurate they will not hit their targets with accuracy. as we know the missiles hit their targets with precise accuracy so we can say they have suitable electronics.


There are rumours that USA helped Iran strike its base to make Iran appear good in front of its people as well as avoid USA casualty. The rumours say that the attack on USA bases were staged and USA already had warning and evacuated the structures and kept its soldiers underground. Some even say that Iran eliminated Soleimani to gain favour with Arabs & negotiate withdrawal of sanctions by asking USA to kill him and then stage manage a retaliation to pretend to be angered.

There is very little reason to say that Iran actually can hit accurately on its own without any foreign assistance as semiconductor is lacking. INS guidance requires semiconductor technology to have accuracy.


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Not sure what you are blabbering about. Your incoherent speech is worse than usual. Hajizadeh is nothing but a propagandist, he has no value to the IRGC. Neither does Salami.
> 
> Not sure what any of your nonsense has to do with the fact this man is praising Qalibaf a known corruption and extortionist! You completely ignored the topic and went on and on about Trump and Iran missiles and about hacked UAVs. Trump is also a known propagandist!
> 
> So don’t sit and cry about Iran Khodro corruption and then also turn a blind eye to the mafia bazi that is IRGC conglomeration. Those in the know in Iran know what they are talking about while fools like you sit on the outside looking in! That is all I will say on that matter.



LoL! Salami is one toughest most hardworking people in all of Iran! That much I know as an absolute fact! As for Hajizadeh he is the head of IRGC's Aerospace Forces and under his leadership the accuracy of Iranian missiles reached what it is today and Iran's UAV forces went from a bunch of large RC to what it is today! And that speaks for its self! So who are you to be criticizing Iranian Heroes like them? 

IRGC is one of least corrupt institutions in Iran & just because fools like you have been brainwashed to believe BBC & VOA lies doesn't make it true!

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## Philosopher

Smarana Mitra said:


> T
> When did I say that USA was not struck by Iran?



Is it a case of _pretend_ reading comprehension? I am stating what you said couple of weeks ago when you did not even know the missiles used in the strike. You claimed it was a 300km ranged missile.




> I am only saying that Iran used GPS or some other guidance system which is otherwise unreliable in war time. The real accuracy of missile is in using INS. Using cheap GPS trackers is not really a display of accuracy.



I already explained this to you last time but you're pretending to have amnesia. Both of those missiles had INS systems. Iran has been making INS system for accurate missiles for years.

Fateh-110 (possible 313) IMU system.
*Using fiber optic gyroscopes:








Qiam missile INS system.








Smarana Mitra said:


> There are rumours that USA helped Iran strike its base to make Iran appear good in front of its people as well as avoid USA casualty. The rumours say that the attack on USA bases were staged and USA already had warning and evacuated the structures and kept its soldiers underground.



So US helped Iran pound its airbase where 100's of soldiers ended ended up with TBI. You people seem to live in your own fantasy land.





> There is very little reason to say that Iran actually can hit accurately on its own without any foreign assistance as semiconductor is lacking. INS guidance requires semiconductor technology to have accuracy.



Except Iran has used missiles to hit targets accurately in practise. The only argument you have here is some conspiracy claims these were all staged. I am sure the Kurds that were vaporised by Iranian attack last year were also staged. As for claims regarding semiconductor, you have 0 evidence to prove Iran's military is not producing them. Just like you're clueless regarding INS systems being used in Iranian missiles, you're clueless regarding other aspects.

You seem to believe just because you Indians lack indigenous capability and rely on imports, that everyone else must too.

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## 925boy

Philosopher. said:


> First you had claimed Iran's Fateh-110 was a "liquid fuelled" ballistic missile. Then couple of weeks ago you were claiming the missiles Iran used on the US base were "300km ranged Fateh". Each time you're made out to be ignorant of basic facts you run and hide then come back with the same comments like you're doing in this thread. You seem to have an obsession with being proven wrong and humiliated?
> .


Bro, take it easy, this person does struggle with understanding Iranian missiles and the logic behind them. I also saw this person making bad arguments before, but you are already aware of it. lol

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## Mithridates

Smarana Mitra said:


> There are rumours that USA helped Iran strike its base to make Iran appear good in front of its people as well as avoid USA casualty. The rumours say that the attack on USA bases were staged and USA already had warning and evacuated the structures and kept its soldiers underground. Some even say that Iran eliminated Soleimani to gain favour with Arabs & negotiate withdrawal of sanctions by asking USA to kill him and then stage manage a retaliation to pretend to be angered.
> 
> There is very little reason to say that Iran actually can hit accurately on its own without any foreign assistance as semiconductor is lacking. INS guidance requires semiconductor technology to have accuracy.


lol

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## TheImmortal

VEVAK said:


> IRGC is one of least corrupt institutions in Iran & just because fools like you have been brainwashed to believe BBC & VOA lies doesn't make it true!

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## aryobarzan

I hate to express personal views on the forum but I do that this time ...General Hajizadeh and Qalibaf are two of the most competent Iranians I have followed throughout the years...They are always the subject of smear campaigns because they are men who "walk the walk" instead of just "talk", but I understand it is my view.I wish both of them good luck.

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## Smarana Mitra

Philosopher. said:


> Is it a case of _pretend_ reading comprehension? I am stating what you said couple of weeks ago when you did not even know the missiles used in the strike. You claimed it was a 300km ranged missile.


I claimed that it was Fateh type missile. Iran could have increased the range by 100 odd km but what I said still is true.



Philosopher. said:


> Except Iran has used missiles to hit targets accurately in practise. The only argument you have here is some conspiracy claims these were all staged. I am sure the Kurds that were vaporised by Iranian attack last year were also staged. As for claims regarding semiconductor, you have 0 evidence to prove Iran's military is not producing them. Just like you're clueless regarding INS systems being used in Iranian missiles, you're clueless regarding other aspects.


The Iranian strike on ISIS were said to be way off. Only the Kurdish ones struck in 60-80km range were struck with accuracy. There is 0 evidence of Iran striking 300-400km target with accuracy. Of course, CEP of 100m is still almost accurate but not very accurate.



Philosopher. said:


> I already explained this to you last time but you're pretending to have amnesia. Both of those missiles had INS systems. Iran has been making INS system for accurate missiles for years.
> 
> Fateh-110 (possible 313) IMU system.
> *Using fiber optic gyroscopes:


Iran even displayed its unique fighter plane calling it 5th generation one. That doesn't mean Iran actually has that Technology. Unless Iran has semiconductor Technology, it is impossible to have accurate INS. Now it's may be hiding it's semiconductor Technology as I don't know all Iranian state secrets. But there are no known semiconductor fabrication facilities in Iran. Activities like silicon processing etc are not very easy to hide, though the Fab itself is easy to hide


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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> The fab used is same for military and civilian goods but the architecture is very different. This involves derating or leaving spaces between rows/columns of transistors in chips. This menas that a chip which could have workd in 2GhZ clock rate will now be working on 0.5GhZ or 1GhZ as lot of spacing is given to reduce short circuit. The packaging is also made more rigid and insulating. But that alone is not enough. It also requries derating the semiconductor in such a way that the semiconductor does not short circuit at high temperatures.
> 
> 
> Packaging is not a big technology. Fabrication is the real technology. Packaging is a simpler job and doesn't need the precision needed to make ICs to the scale of nanometres or micrometer. Iran never had any fabrication facility.
> 
> 
> Selling fabrication technology is too big a risk which someone will take only if there is a major strategic reward. What does Iran have to offer China to be able to buy such a huge technology device? Moreover, you can't buy any semiconductor, especially derated ones used in military items.
> 
> 
> When did I say that USA was not struck by Iran? I am only saying that Iran used GPS or some other guidance system which is otherwise unreliable in war time. The real accuracy of missile is in using INS. Using cheap GPS trackers is not really a display of accuracy.
> 
> 
> 
> There are rumours that USA helped Iran strike its base to make Iran appear good in front of its people as well as avoid USA casualty. The rumours say that the attack on USA bases were staged and USA already had warning and evacuated the structures and kept its soldiers underground. Some even say that Iran eliminated Soleimani to gain favour with Arabs & negotiate withdrawal of sanctions by asking USA to kill him and then stage manage a retaliation to pretend to be angered.
> 
> There is very little reason to say that Iran actually can hit accurately on its own without any foreign assistance as semiconductor is lacking. INS guidance requires semiconductor technology to have accuracy.


you seems to think for a chips a country need factories asbig as TSMC , youare wrong for military purpose you can fit what you need in an apartement in a base .
these are the devices





in my room you can put two of these Merit MG45 devices 
and you can buy them by using front companies



Smarana Mitra said:


> I claimed that it was Fateh type missile. Iran could have increased the range by 100 odd km but what I said still is true.


the problem we increased the range of Fateh Type missile up to 1000km and they still had the same accuracy .


Smarana Mitra said:


> The Iranian strike on ISIS were said to be way off. Only the Kurdish ones struck in 60-80km range were struck with accuracy. There is 0 evidence of Iran striking 300-400km target with accuracy. Of course, CEP of 100m is still almost accurate but not very accurate.


it said way off because the fools on the net taught the building on the ground was target while Iranian commander explained later that the real target was under the ground . and also some fools don't get the concept that we separate warhead from the body of the missile , they see the body is fallen in the middle of desert and say hey look the missile didn't hit the target.

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## Smarana Mitra

Hack-Hook said:


> you seems to think for a chips a country need factories asbig as TSMC , youare wrong for military purpose you can fit what you need in an apartement in a base .
> these are the devices


I know that the machines are small but the problem is with the other infrastructure like manpower, silicon processing etc. All of the infrastructure needed to make a fab is big enough to not be concealed. This is unless Iran can get some country to give fabrication machines. This is highly unlikely as Iran has nothing that can persuade any country to give away such a strategic asset. So, in the most unlikely scenario that Iran gets the machine as import along with needed tools, Iran can have semiconductor fab. However, most likely none has given fab machines to Iran and hence Iran does not have semiconductor fab.



Hack-Hook said:


> it said way off because the fools on the net taught the building on the ground was target while Iranian commander explained later that the real target was under the ground . and also some fools don't get the concept that we separate warhead from the body of the missile , they see the body is fallen in the middle of desert and say hey look the missile didn't hit the target.


It is possible both ways. There is significant deficiency of data and hence one needs to check whether the INS guidance accuracy is really great without external guidance like GPS. I can't directly state that Iranian missile is inaccurate but I can only say that it is most likely to be inaccurate


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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> I know that the machines are small but the problem is with the other infrastructure like manpower, silicon processing etc. All of the infrastructure needed to make a fab is big enough to not be concealed. This is unless Iran can get some country to give fabrication machines. This is highly unlikely as Iran has nothing that can persuade any country to give away such a strategic asset. So, in the most unlikely scenario that Iran gets the machine as import along with needed tools, Iran can have semiconductor fab. However, most likely none has given fab machines to Iran and hence Iran does not have semiconductor fab.


as i said these machine are there and you can buy them its not like nuke tech that are state controlled so your concerns here are not founded . and as i said all come to the scale of your operation a big facility will be large but a small facility that produce 2000-3000 chip/month even more can be hidden very easily as for that amount you don't need that much silicon and you can perfectly produce far more than enough chip for what you need for your military 



Smarana Mitra said:


> It is possible both ways. There is significant deficiency of data and hence one needs to check whether the INS guidance accuracy is really great without external guidance like GPS. I can't directly state that Iranian missile is inaccurate but I can only say that it is most likely to be inaccurate


evidence point that its accurate , for example in our missile tests we point a camera to a tent and well after test let just say there won't be any tent left

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## Smarana Mitra

Hack-Hook said:


> as i said these machine are there and you can buy them its not like nuke tech that are state controlled so your concerns here are not founded . and as i said all come to the scale of your operation a big facility will be large but a small facility that produce 2000-3000 chip/month even more can be hidden very easily as for that amount you don't need that much silicon and you can perfectly produce far more than enough chip for what you need for your military


The machine is always small but the infrastructure needed to do R&D to develop a machine for fabrication is huge. It is more difficult to make semiconductor than to make a nuclear bomb. Nukes were made in 1940s when there was no computer or automated precision machines. So, semiconductor technology is more classified than even nuclear bomb. A state may give nuclear technology but will not give semiconductor technology.



Hack-Hook said:


> evidence point that its accurate , for example in our missile tests we point a camera to a tent and well after test let just say there won't be any tent left


Can you show me the evidence or source? I am doubting mainly because I have enough knowledge to say semiconductor is the key to precision and I don't think Iran has it. So, I am being skeptical.


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## Ich

Iran produced 90 nm 32 Bit CPU more then 10 years ago. So if there were normal development then Iran should be at least at 32 nm by now. Also Iran can use the RISC-V design what is open source and free. A lot of super computers use RISC, mostly ARM. But ARM costs licence whereas RISC-V is free.

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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> The machine is always small but the infrastructure needed to do R&D to develop a machine for fabrication is huge. It is more difficult to make semiconductor than to make a nuclear bomb. Nukes were made in 1940s when there was no computer or automated precision machines. So, semiconductor technology is more classified than even nuclear bomb. A state may give nuclear technology but will not give semiconductor technology.


you are wrong here they are not state controlled technology and the size of support facility depends on the size of production line
by the way here you can see which countries have industrial scale fabs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants
USA, Argentina, Australia, Italy, Belarus, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, Costa Rica, Czech Republic, England, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, Netherlands,
Northern Ireland, North Korea, Philippines, Poland, Russia, Singapore, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, UAE, UK.
add to that the list of countries who previously had FABs but closed them due to economical point of view
Spain, Serbia, Scotland, Ukraine

41 country well not a very exclusive club .you see every body can build a fab not that hard even north Korea or Belarus have one the technology is not state controlled , the hard part is producing lithography devices that print those chips and not every body can make them but as I said those device can easily bought from the market or even second hand.

by the way do you knew we designed this in 2006 our first SPARC processor ?

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## Shams313

Smarana Mitra said:


> The machine is always small but the infrastructure needed to do R&D to develop a machine for fabrication is huge. It is more difficult to make semiconductor than to make a nuclear bomb. Nukes were made in 1940s when there was no computer or automated precision machines. So, semiconductor technology is more classified than even nuclear bomb. A state may give nuclear technology but will not give semiconductor technology.
> 
> 
> Can you show me the evidence or source? I am doubting mainly because I have enough knowledge to say semiconductor is the key to precision and I don't think Iran has it. So, I am being skeptical.


Iranian designed micro controller...






And military grade developments r not publically announced.. secrecy is essential at least for iran....

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## Smarana Mitra

Ich said:


> Iran produced 90 nm 32 Bit CPU more then 10 years ago. So if there were normal development then Iran should be at least at 32 nm by now. Also Iran can use the RISC-V design what is open source and free. A lot of super computers use RISC, mostly ARM. But ARM costs licence whereas RISC-V is free.


Design is one thing, fabrication is another. India has designed 22nm chipsets too but can only fabricate 180nm in mass scale. Iran may have designed chips but not fabricated them.

Iran doing 90nm fabrication 10 years back is a unlikely. The timeline of fabrication technology is:
2000-2001: 180nm
2002-2003: 135nm
2004-2005: 90nm
2006-2007: 65nm
2008-2009: 45nm
2010-2011: 32nm
2012-2013: 22nm
2014-present: 14nm

10nm is still under development while companies like Samsung wrongly brands 14nm as 10nm by using different measurement parameter. But real 10nm of intel is not yet out.

Iran having 90nm technology in 2009-2010 is unlikely as only USA and its minions (Korea, Taiwan) had the technology. USA was leading by at least 10 years ahead of nearest rival of China & Russia. How can Iran get so advanced technology then?


Shams313 said:


> Iranian designed micro controller...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And military grade developments r not publically announced.. secrecy is essential at least for iran....


I can't understand a word of what they are saying. I have only one question- whether Iran manufactured the chipset in Iran or only designed it in Iran and then got it manufactured by someone else in limited quantity?

Of course, Iran won't announce all military technology. But everyone is looking for semiconductor technology with Iran as semiconductor technology is more important than even nuclear technology. Someone will notice if Iran is indeed capable of making chipsets. Though, it is not necessary that they will disclose it in public.

Here is an article about Iran designing CPU but getting it manufactured in Taiwan:
https://www.eetimes.com/iran-develops-32-bit-processor/

Are you sure you are not speaking of this?


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## Arminkh

Smarana Mitra said:


> Design is one thing, fabrication is another. India has designed 22nm chipsets too but can only fabricate 180nm in mass scale. Iran may have designed chips but not fabricated them.
> 
> Iran doing 90nm fabrication 10 years back is a unlikely. The timeline of fabrication technology is:
> 2000-2001: 180nm
> 2002-2003: 135nm
> 2004-2005: 90nm
> 2006-2007: 65nm
> 2008-2009: 45nm
> 2010-2011: 32nm
> 2012-2013: 22nm
> 2014-present: 14nm
> 
> 10nm is still under development while companies like Samsung wrongly brands 14nm as 10nm by using different measurement parameter. But real 10nm of intel is not yet out.
> 
> Iran having 90nm technology in 2009-2010 is unlikely as only USA and its minions (Korea, Taiwan) had the technology. USA was leading by at least 10 years ahead of nearest rival of China & Russia. How can Iran get so advanced technology then?
> 
> I can't understand a word of what they are saying. I have only one question- whether Iran manufactured the chipset in Iran or only designed it in Iran and then got it manufactured by someone else in limited quantity?
> 
> Of course, Iran won't announce all military technology. But everyone is looking for semiconductor technology with Iran as semiconductor technology is more important than even nuclear technology. Someone will notice if Iran is indeed capable of making chipsets. Though, it is not necessary that they will disclose it in public.
> 
> Here is an article about Iran designing CPU but getting it manufactured in Taiwan:
> https://www.eetimes.com/iran-develops-32-bit-processor/
> 
> Are you sure you are not speaking of this?


Key to narrower and finer circuit printing is advances in lithography that has enabled decreasing the minimum width of printing from 180nm to 14nm. All Iran needed was to get its hands on one of those lithography machines and it could start producing chips with 14nm accuracy.


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## Ich

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran doing 90nm fabrication 10 years back is a unlikely. The timeline of fabrication technology is:
> 2000-2001: 180nm
> 2002-2003: 135nm
> 2004-2005: 90nm
> 2006-2007: 65nm
> 2008-2009: 45nm
> 2010-2011: 32nm
> 2012-2013: 22nm
> 2014-present: 14nm



1. 90 nm was 1988. Comercial use starts later at 2002/2003
"A 90 nm silicon MOSFET was fabricated by Iranian engineer Ghavam Shahidi (later IBM director) with D.A. Antoniadis and H.I. Smith at MIT in 1988. The device was fabricated using X-ray lithography.[1]"

2. In 2006 Iran Parsé Semiconductor Co. build Sparc 32 Bit processor Leon in 180 nm, then Leon3 in 130 nm and some years later a 32 Bit processor in 90 nm.

Edit:

Hmm, i cant found the 90 nm cpu in Inet. But i know that i saw a story about the 300 mm Wafer production line and the 90 nm litho for that Wafer in Fars News many years ago. So yes, maybe not more then 10 years 90 nm.

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## Ich

Edit:



Smarana Mitra said:


> 10nm is still under development while companies like Samsung wrongly brands 14nm as 10nm by using different measurement parameter. But real 10nm of intel is not yet out.



Well, who cares about Intel if AMD sell 7nm cpu and gpu?


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230852136008900610^ The Houthis claimed an attack on Saudi Aramco facilities in Yanbu. According to this video they used a ballistic missile named 'Zulfiqar'. Any idea which missile they are refering to?

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## DoubleYouSee

hey dear friend.....could we conclude from this video that photogrammetry drone which is built by Iran,merely is a way on which we are able to guide our cruise missile?!.....if anybody has any idea tells us.....thanks


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## Philosopher

Smarana Mitra said:


> I claimed that it was Fateh type missile. Iran could have increased the range by 100 odd km but what I said still is true.



You're trying to twist things now. The truth was, you did not even know the basic facts like the range of missile used in the attack. You stated it was a 300km ranged missiles when the bases are not even within that range.



> The Iranian strike on ISIS were said to be way off. Only the Kurdish ones struck in 60-80km range were struck with accuracy.



According to who? You? The actual experts state otherwise:









> There is 0 evidence of Iran striking 300-400km target with accuracy. Of course, CEP of 100m is still almost accurate but not very accurate.




"0 evidence", then what on earth do you call the attack on the US air base?








You seriously need to stop commenting on topics you clearly know little about.



> Iran even displayed its unique fighter plane calling it 5th generation one. That doesn't mean Iran actually has that Technology.



More lies. It seem you're only able to post false information. Show me when Iran ever claimed it displayed a fifth generation plane.



> Unless Iran has semiconductor Technology, it is impossible to have accurate INS. Now it's may be hiding it's semiconductor Technology as I don't know all Iranian state secrets. But there are no known semiconductor fabrication facilities in Iran. Activities like silicon processing etc are not very easy to hide, though the Fab itself is easy to hide



Unless you have proof that Iran does not have such capability, then I suggest you quit wasting everyones time with these unsubstantiated comments. Frankly the level of ignorance being displayed by your comment is rather humiliating.

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## drmeson

Smarana Mitra said:


> Iran can't make accurate missile until it develops semiconductor.



So how is Iran achieving less than 10 m CEP then ? Deny this and I will start posting pics and vids of IRGC missiles hitting pinpoint targets.

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## Philosopher

drmeson said:


> So how is Iran achieving less than 10 m CEP then ? Deny this and I will start posting pics and vids of IRGC missiles hitting pinpoint targets.



This guy did not even know the difference between a liquid and solid fuel ballistic missiles until a few weeks ago (he claimed Fateh is liquid fuelled) so I am not surprised he is this out of touch with reality.

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## Stryker1982

Just ignore him. He's a pseudo-intellectual on Iranian Industry.

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## TheImmortal

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230852136008900610^ The Houthis claimed an attack on Saudi Aramco facilities in Yanbu. According to this video they used a ballistic missile named 'Zulfiqar'. Any idea which missile they are refering to?



looks like attack was not successful if Saudi Arabia is not saying anything.


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## Shams313

Smarana Mitra said:


> Design is one thing, fabrication is another. India has designed 22nm chipsets too but can only fabricate 180nm in mass scale. Iran may have designed chips but not fabricated them.
> 
> Iran doing 90nm fabrication 10 years back is a unlikely. The timeline of fabrication technology is:
> 2000-2001: 180nm
> 2002-2003: 135nm
> 2004-2005: 90nm
> 2006-2007: 65nm
> 2008-2009: 45nm
> 2010-2011: 32nm
> 2012-2013: 22nm
> 2014-present: 14nm
> 
> 10nm is still under development while companies like Samsung wrongly brands 14nm as 10nm by using different measurement parameter. But real 10nm of intel is not yet out.
> 
> Iran having 90nm technology in 2009-2010 is unlikely as only USA and its minions (Korea, Taiwan) had the technology. USA was leading by at least 10 years ahead of nearest rival of China & Russia. How can Iran get so advanced technology then?
> 
> I can't understand a word of what they are saying. I have only one question- whether Iran manufactured the chipset in Iran or only designed it in Iran and then got it manufactured by someone else in limited quantity?
> 
> Of course, Iran won't announce all military technology. But everyone is looking for semiconductor technology with Iran as semiconductor technology is more important than even nuclear technology. Someone will notice if Iran is indeed capable of making chipsets. Though, it is not necessary that they will disclose it in public.
> 
> Here is an article about Iran designing CPU but getting it manufactured in Taiwan:
> https://www.eetimes.com/iran-develops-32-bit-processor/
> 
> Are you sure you are not speaking of this?



Nope, that was a processor another made from SPARC core, this one is a microcontroller with RISC design.

I saw a thread of join development of microprocessors between Iranian firms and Russians ( probably with MCST) and most Iranian radar and controller processors may be originated from Russian designs.
And they find out, those processors were comparatively cheaper then local production. So unless there is any extreme design being developed in Iran that is worth manufacturing locally I can't see any reason for local development.


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## Smarana Mitra

Arminkh said:


> Key to narrower and finer circuit printing is advances in lithography that has enabled decreasing the minimum width of printing from 180nm to 14nm. All Iran needed was to get its hands on one of those lithography machines and it could start producing chips with 14nm accuracy.


The problem is in getting this lithography machine. One can't simply get a machine just like that. It is easier to get a nuclear bomb than get a lithography machine.



Ich said:


> 90 nm was 1988. Comercial use starts later at 2002/2003
> "A 90 nm silicon MOSFET was fabricated by Iranian engineer Ghavam Shahidi (later IBM director) with D.A. Antoniadis and H.I. Smith at MIT in 1988. The device was fabricated using X-ray lithography.[1]"


So, the semiconductor in 1980s were pretty bad and hence USA could not make advanced equipment like Laser guided bombs, accurate missile defence etc till 1990. Only the semiconductor revolution with advancement to 800nm (0.8um) in 1987 made the semiconductor small enough to be used in smaller equipments like pods and get better accuracy in missile defence. The revolution in communications like internet, mobile phones were also due to the advancement of semiconductor to 600nm or lower. If 90nm was already in 80s, then the development of technology would have been far faster than what it is now.



Ich said:


> Well, who cares about Intel if AMD sell 7nm cpu and gpu?


AMD is just a proxy of Intel to avoid Intel from being an illegal monopoly. USA law prohibits monopoly and hence AMD is made to ensure that there is no situation of monopoly.



Philosopher. said:


> You're trying to twist things now. The truth was, you did not even know the basic facts like the range of missile used in the attack. You stated it was a 300km ranged missiles when the bases are not even within that range.


It is a fact that Iran used Fateh derived missile against USA airbase attack. Where did I say something wrong? The range was also roughly 300km itself.



Philosopher. said:


> "0 evidence", then what on earth do you call the attack on the US air base?


I am saying that Iran and USA coordinated the staged attack to ensure Iran gets to save its face while not harming USA soldiers. So, USA and Iran coordinated (may be with Russia as mediator) to use foreign guidance in missiles to hit USA airbase. So, Iranian missile was probably using guidance kit from Russia or USA to ensure the attack is staged well 



drmeson said:


> So how is Iran achieving less than 10 m CEP then ? Deny this and I will start posting pics and vids of IRGC missiles hitting pinpoint targets.


Why don't you give me the video of ballistic missile of Iran having that accuracy? I don't deny that cruise missile of Iran can have that accuracy. I am specifically asking for accuracy of ballistic missile



Shams313 said:


> Nope, that was a processor another made from SPARC core, this one is a microcontroller with RISC design.
> 
> I saw a thread of join development of microprocessors between Iranian firms and Russians ( probably with MCST) and most Iranian radar and controller processors may be originated from Russian designs.
> And they find out, those processors were comparatively cheaper then local production. So unless there is any extreme design being developed in Iran that is worth manufacturing locally I can't see any reason for local development.


This is my point - Iran is not making the chips in its country. Local production means that Iran has full control on its production and will not be limited by foreign countries' politics. This is what I was talking about.


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## Shams313

Smarana Mitra said:


> The problem is in getting this lithography machine. One can't simply get a machine just like that. It is easier to get a nuclear bomb than get a lithography machine.
> 
> 
> So, the semiconductor in 1980s were pretty bad and hence USA could not make advanced equipment like Laser guided bombs, accurate missile defence etc till 1990. Only the semiconductor revolution with advancement to 800nm (0.8um) in 1987 made the semiconductor small enough to be used in smaller equipments like pods and get better accuracy in missile defence. The revolution in communications like internet, mobile phones were also due to the advancement of semiconductor to 600nm or lower. If 90nm was already in 80s, then the development of technology would have been far faster than what it is now.
> 
> 
> AMD is just a proxy of Intel to avoid Intel from being an illegal monopoly. USA law prohibits monopoly and hence AMD is made to ensure that there is no situation of monopoly.
> 
> 
> It is a fact that Iran used Fateh derived missile against USA airbase attack. Where did I say something wrong? The range was also roughly 300km itself.
> 
> 
> I am saying that Iran and USA coordinated the staged attack to ensure Iran gets to save its face while not harming USA soldiers. So, USA and Iran coordinated (may be with Russia as mediator) to use foreign guidance in missiles to hit USA airbase. So, Iranian missile was probably using guidance kit from Russia or USA to ensure the attack is staged well
> 
> 
> Why don't you give me the video of ballistic missile of Iran having that accuracy? I don't deny that cruise missile of Iran can have that accuracy. I am specifically asking for accuracy of ballistic missile
> 
> 
> This is my point - Iran is not making the chips in its country. Local production means that Iran has full control on its production and will not be limited by foreign countries' politics. This is what I was talking about.



but I don't know if they have any production line and other facilities at least for R&D inside of Iran.
So don't conclude on my assumption...

A country that spent a lot of time developing electronics systems may have their eye on this kind of technology....
I can't draw any conclusion, secrecy matters...


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## Ich

Smarana Mitra said:


> The problem is in getting this lithography machine. One can't simply get a machine just like that. It is easier to get a nuclear bomb than get a lithography machine.
> 
> 
> So, the semiconductor in 1980s were pretty bad and hence USA could not make advanced equipment like Laser guided bombs, accurate missile defence etc till 1990. Only the semiconductor revolution with advancement to 800nm (0.8um) in 1987 made the semiconductor small enough to be used in smaller equipments like pods and get better accuracy in missile defence. The revolution in communications like internet, mobile phones were also due to the advancement of semiconductor to 600nm or lower. If 90nm was already in 80s, then the development of technology would have been far faster than what it is now.
> 
> 
> AMD is just a proxy of Intel to avoid Intel from being an illegal monopoly. USA law prohibits monopoly and hence AMD is made to ensure that there is no situation of monopoly.



Well, i would like to show you the announcements and reports about Iran producing Wafers an 90 nm or better. But google is more and more limited in what it shows to you if i compare to 10 years or 15 years ago. Some call it censorship.

*BUT*

I found this. At Tabriz University in Iran there were already researches about Excimer Laser Lithography in 2003. 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...71afa3f639a50ddef959a2a503831a28c186e9d722128

And there were a lot of other researches to this topic in iranian universities in 2004-2007 you can find behind paywalls at some
science portal.

So there were for sure a lot tests and prototypes at this time and laid the base for the 2006 sparc processor. Due to there exists already excimer laser lithography at that time in Iran, 90 nm (and today maybe better) are logic. Sure in small scale production, but in production.

Maybe some of the iranians here can ask A. Rostami or A. Rahmani or some other at Tabriz University for more information and then post it here. Google do not give you anything about it.

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## yavar



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## Shams313

yavar said:


>


vedio cannot be played..

ops VPN caused the issue...
casualties??

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## Smarana Mitra

Ich said:


> Well, i would like to show you the announcements and reports about Iran producing Wafers an 90 nm or better. But google is more and more limited in what it shows to you if i compare to 10 years or 15 years ago. Some call it censorship.
> 
> *BUT*
> 
> I found this. At Tabriz University in Iran there were already researches about Excimer Laser Lithography in 2003.
> 
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/49440186/A_proposal_for_high_resolution_photolith20161007-20439-4381d6.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline; filename=A_proposal_for_high_resolution_photolith.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A/20200222/us-east-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200222T091131Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=7c39a10c46380836bec71afa3f639a50ddef959a2a503831a28c186e9d722128
> 
> And there were a lot of other researches to this topic in iranian universities in 2004-2007 you can find behind paywalls at some
> science portal.
> 
> So there were for sure a lot tests and prototypes at this time and laid the base for the 2006 sparc processor. Due to there exists already excimer laser lithography at that time in Iran, 90 nm (and today maybe better) are logic. Sure in small scale production, but in production.
> 
> Maybe some of the iranians here can ask A. Rostami or A. Rahmani or some other at Tabriz University for more information and then post it here. Google do not give you anything about it.


Excimer laser is the technology being used for several decades for fabrication. But that does not mean anyone can simply fabricate it. In 2006, 90nm was the latest technology. Iran having access to that is highly unlikely. Even countries like China, Russia etc did not have that technology. Only USA had that technology in 2006. The link you gave is not working. So, I can't verify that.

Secondly, considering the researches across universities, the R&D may simply be about design rather than fabrication. I have seen many universities in India and other countries designing 22nm and 14nm despite them not having the fabrication facility.


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## Ich

Smarana Mitra said:


> Excimer laser is the technology being used for several decades for fabrication. But that does not mean anyone can simply fabricate it. In 2006, 90nm was the latest technology. Iran having access to that is highly unlikely. Even countries like China, Russia etc did not have that technology. Only USA had that technology in 2006. The link you gave is not working. So, I can't verify that.
> 
> Secondly, considering the researches across universities, the R&D may simply be about design rather than fabrication. I have seen many universities in India and other countries designing 22nm and 14nm despite them not having the fabrication facility.



I repeat (maybe you dont read my posts so repeat is nessercery):

First commercial 90 nm was in 2002. In 2003 the biggest Semiconductors produce and sell 90 nm. In 2006 Iran show 180 nm sparc Leon and sparc Leon3 130 nm.

At that time ALL things one have to know for Excimer Laser Lithography for 90 nm are already researched and testet. Even upgrades were researched and testet. You can read it in the link to Tabriz University i posted. Also you can invest 2,99$ to find and read a lot more about iranian researches at that topic in the years from 2004-2007 in science portals.

Well, due to some strange happenings here at PDF (truth sometimes isnt a friend here) i end this discussion.

You can read the facts, or you dont. Its your world.

Edit:

*WOW! The link i provided vanishs! *The *.pdf behind it does no more exist! Hohooo, within a few hours after i wrote it here! But i found another place where the *pdf can be found. The authors are Ali Rostami and Ali Rahmani. Ali Rostami is this one

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ali_Rostami22

The new location of the *.pdf (Iran excimer laser lithography in 2003/2004) you can find here (i wonder how long it will last...)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ution_photolithography_using_optical_limiters

Here a pic of the citing

"We *show* that, the linear and nonlinear index of refractions profile, and the number of layers in the proposed grating, determines the minimum line-width"

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## Hack-Hook

Smarana Mitra said:


> The problem is in getting this lithography machine. One can't simply get a machine just like that. It is easier to get a nuclear bomb than get a lithography machine.


Your source of information is somehow strange



Smarana Mitra said:


> AMD is just a proxy of Intel to avoid Intel from being an illegal monopoly. USA law prohibits monopoly and hence AMD is made to ensure that there is no situation of monopoly.


Again wrong



Smarana Mitra said:


> It is a fact that Iran used Fateh derived missile against USA airbase attack. Where did I say something wrong? The range was also roughly 300km itself.


The faith missile family have a range of 180-1000km depends on the model.



Smarana Mitra said:


> I am saying that Iran and USA coordinated the staged attack to ensure Iran gets to save its face while not harming USA soldiers. So, USA and Iran coordinated (may be with Russia as mediator) to use foreign guidance in missiles to hit USA airbase. So, Iranian missile was probably using guidance kit from Russia or USA to ensure the attack is staged well


I'm saying complete nonsense as we show already we point our camera toward a tent and say the missile will hit that tent and the missile hit it.



Smarana Mitra said:


> Why don't you give me the video of ballistic missile of Iran having that accuracy? I don't deny that cruise missile of Iran can have that accuracy. I am specifically asking for accuracy of ballistic missile


Search the net , search the forum n we post those videos times and times.


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## Philosopher

Smarana Mitra said:


> T
> 
> It is a fact that Iran used Fateh derived missile against USA airbase attack. Where did I say something wrong? The range was also roughly 300km itself.



You only know this fact now because you were informed of it by me, initially you did not know what missiles was used. The point here is this, you appear to have a tendency to comment on these topics but refrain from doing the relevant background checks, why is that?




> I am saying that Iran and USA coordinated the staged attack to ensure Iran gets to save its face while not harming USA soldiers.



Us soldier were harmed, what is TBI? The only reason their soldiers were not downright killed was because Iran warned the Iraqis before hand. That is maximum extend of "coordination" not the conspiracy theories you believe.



> So, Iranian missile was probably using guidance kit from Russia or USA to ensure the attack is staged well



You're just making up stories as you go along. First not knowing the difference between liquid and solid fuelled missiles and now this. How do expect to engage in a meaningful discussion when you're only offering unsubstantiated conspiracy claims? You have yet to provide an iota of evidence for any of your claims.




> Why don't you give me the video of ballistic missile of Iran having that accuracy? I don't deny that cruise missile of Iran can have that accuracy. I am specifically asking for accuracy of ballistic missile



You have been given pictures and videos, but because you cannot refute them, you invent conspiracy theories.

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## yavar

Shams313 said:


> vedio cannot be played..
> 
> ops VPN caused the issue...
> casualties??



I don’t know can please people let us know is video can be watched


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## Arminkh

yavar said:


> I don’t know can please people let us know is video can be watched


I was able to watch it. Seems like they were intercepted .

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## Ich

yavar said:


> I don’t know can please people let us know is video can be watched



I still can watch the Vid. The missiles are very loud.

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## Shams313

yavar said:


> I don’t know can please people let us know is video can be watched


yes, I saw the verdio...i use VPN to enter this site, Dailymotion blocked the VPN. but somehow I managed to saw it.

Someone should analyze it.

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## Messerschmitt

A technical analysis of the Quds-1 cruise missile: https://jetguyone.home.blog/2019/09/24/the-quds-1/
Quds-1 update: https://jetguyone.home.blog/2019/09/27/quds-1-update/

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## PeeD

Messerschmitt said:


> A technical analysis of the Quds-1 cruise missile: https://jetguyone.home.blog/2019/09/24/the-quds-1/
> Quds-1 update: https://jetguyone.home.blog/2019/09/27/quds-1-update/



A very good analysis. People who want to understand CMs and engines as well as analysis methods should carefully read it.

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## drmeson

Smarana Mitra said:


> Why don't you give me the video of ballistic missile of Iran having that accuracy? I don't deny that cruise missile of Iran can have that accuracy. I am specifically asking for accuracy of ballistic missile



You are a failure 

2000-2500 KM Solid fueled GRV Sejjil Hitting target at preset camera position Less than 50 m CEP


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045295188661424128
2000 KM Liquid Fuel MaRV EMAD Hitting target at preset camera position Less than 50 m CEP






2000 KM Liquid Fuel GRV KHorramshahr (1.8 ton) or 3000 KM with 1 ton Hitting target at preset camera position Less than 30 m CEP


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1217043818513608704
1000 KM Solid fuel DEZFUL Hitting a building within 10 M CEP






1000 KM solid fuel anti radiation Hormoz missile Hitting within 10 M CEP 






300 KM Solid Fueled Persian Gulf Missile hitting a moving target within 10 M CEP 






...............

Thats just a glimpse, I have not included every single one of them

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> A very good analysis. People who want to understand CMs and engines as well as analysis methods should carefully read it.



Haven't read it yet but the problem is that none of these people actually know where the missiles were actually fired from! They assume to know with out a shadow of a doubt that the Houthis can't get a small truck and drive to western Yemen or....! And the Saudi-US analysts are even funnier because in one sentence they claim that Iranian weapons are the only reason Yemenis have any missiles and at the same time claim that these couldn't of been Yemeni CM because the range doesn't fit because it's impossible for a Chezch TJ-100 (or even a copy of it) to travel that far..... And no one asks if your claiming that the Houthis have enough freedom of movement to import weapons from Iran going on years and years but at the same time they are so impudent that the missile had to be fired either from Iran or Iraq or had to be more advanced weapon fried from the Houthi area.... and then when you ask are you now claiming Yemeni can now produce CM with TJ-100 they get confused and defensive and say those are modified Ya-Ali missile that Iran its self doesn't claim can travel that far....

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## PeeD

Here is my simpler scaling analysis from last summer:



PeeD said:


> I did a scaling analysis to come to those numbers.
> One feature of scaling calculation is that it expects the same technology level as the original scale (Kh-55).
> 
> So 700km range @ 200-300kg payload is for a missile built at the tech. level of the Kh-55.
> If it is worse due to lower capability, lower cost goal or import limitations then the numbers shrink down.
> 
> The key point here is however the possibilities this engine and Irans CM technology offers today and it what cost.
> 
> Tomahawk/Kh-55 deliver 400-450kg payload to 2500km and weight around 1300kg.
> Both use complex and expensive turbofans.
> 
> The Qods/Ya-Ali-2 delivers a 200-300kg payload to 700km, weight 1/3 (airframe materials) and uses a very simple, inexpensive turbojet.
> 
> Given that many of Irans threats are within that range, it looks sufficiently economic to compete with Fateh series of BMs.
> Even better: With high technology-level of Kh-55, Iran could develop a 1200km Israel-range version that still delivers a 200kg warhead. That's what scale calculations tell.
> 
> Many times I did question here the economic value a CM arsenal would make for Iran in light of its efficient BM arsenal. But with this technology approach and level of avionic miniaturization (beyond Kh-55 level).
> 
> Just one aspect to put things into perspective: The heart of the missile, its engine, is a single stage design while the Kh-55 needs a 9-stage turbofan...
> 
> One direct implication is that the Nasir AshM is not just a miniaturized Noor in terms of range, but rather a Qadr or Qadir with probably 180-250km range. Amazing performance for such a small and cheap AshM.



I also came to a similar number: 1200km for a 200kg warhead.
His analysis is much more detailed than my early scale analysis.
His analysis could also be applied to see how the mysterious 358 missile performs, albeit we lack a useful drag equivalent for it.

However if someone has the time and the knowledge: Use this analysis to see what the range of the Hoveyzeh CM is and if claimed 1300km is correct.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> A very good analysis. People who want to understand CMs and engines as well as analysis methods should carefully read it.



*Fuel consumption:* 0.7-3.12 l/min (23.67-105.5 fl oz/min) idle-max
*Specific fuel consumption:* 116 g/N/h (1.1376 lb/lbf/hr)

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1234237498810781696

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## Stryker1982

Good luck shooting the Solid Fueled Sejil archer or the arrow RV.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235329140213133314

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## Stryker1982

Anywhere I can see the full missile documentary of the "Power of Authority"?


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## Messerschmitt

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238107448512114691


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## Philosopher

Keep in mind, they're including Fateh family missiles in that assessment. Their estimations are nothing but hot air. Iran has been producing missiles for *decades. *2500-3000? Seriously?

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## TheImmortal

Philosopher. said:


> Keep in mind, they're including Fateh family missiles in that assessment. Their estimations are nothing but hot air. Iran has been producing missiles for *decades. *2500-3000? Seriously?



Iran has been mass producing missiles for 20 years. Not “decades”. Shahab-3 was late 90’s. Most of the early models like Shahab-3A are retired. Missiles fired during Iran-Iraq war were bought from NK, Libya, and Syria they weren’t mass produced.

Nobody knows how many BMs Iran can truly produce per month. Could be 10 could be 100.

I think Iran has a total arsenal of 10,000 BMs. Which isn’t a lot if you think about it. 

If 20% of missiles fail and 30% of missiles get destroyed in air strikes/cruise missile during initial phase of war, that leaves 5,000 missiles that get close to target (not calculating another 20% for missiles that get intercepted).


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## Philosopher

TheImmortal said:


> Iran has been mass producing missiles for 20 years. Not “decades”.



You do realise 20 years is 2 decades i.e decades, right?




> Nobody knows how many BMs Iran can truly produce per month. Could be 10 could be 100.
> 
> I think Iran has a total arsenal of 10,000 BMs. Which isn’t a lot if you think about it.
> 
> If 20% of missiles fail and 30% of missiles get destroyed in air strikes/cruise missile during initial phase of war, that leaves 5,000 missiles that get close to target (not calculating another 20% for missiles that get intercepted).



Exactly, no one knows how many missiles Iran has, however to suggest they have 3000, is borderline insanity. That would mean, over the last lets say 20 years, Iran produced 150 missiles per year (that includes fateh type missiles). Only a fool would think that mirrors reality.

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## GWXP

I think US CENTCOM is a more reliable source than dudes on this forum.

Their estimates are based on intelligence data, knowledge of missile technology and other things----- and not on some guestimates people make on this forum....

3000 ballistic missiles is a good number---assuming 50% success rate you can destroy 1500 targets with unitary warheads or cluster munitions.

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## Stryker1982

2500-3000 is still a very high number. We just don't know what they include in those figures. As in, do they include Fateh-110 or 313 as part of the number or seperate in terms of long range tactical rockets.

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## 925boy

GWXP said:


> I think US CENTCOM is a more reliable source than dudes on this forum.
> 
> Their estimates are based on intelligence data, knowledge of missile technology and other things----- and not on some guestimates people make on this forum....
> 
> 3000 ballistic missiles is a good number---assuming 50% success rate you can destroy 1500 targets with unitary warheads or cluster munitions.


While i think 3,000 is a "good number", my gut tells me its more like low xx,xxx to high xx,xxx" and i dont think that is on the extreme side. I'm quite confused now too....cuz if this estimate is correct??? nah...its off.guaranteed off. He might have given a low number intentionally too, maybe to not raise an alarm.

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## DoubleYouSee

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238107448512114691


compare that video with this one:




they just accept your power when ever some of those missile just strike on their baises,in the video which i've posted the so called expert says "in case Iran wants to hit my office in bahrain they must lunch thousands of fateh missile"......even about the khalije fars he says the ship which has shown in the video clip has been shot by a cruise missile not ballistic one.......these poor guys are so arrogant and we have to talk them with their lingo which is might and power..........lunch more missile and give more respect

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## skyshadow

*we tolled you, Iran will prevail*



*In these days when all focus is on COVD-19 we should also note that the US is leaving several bases in Iraq as the confrontation with Iran-aligned Shia militias is escalating. This is not going well.

*

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## VEVAK

Philosopher. said:


> Keep in mind, they're including Fateh family missiles in that assessment. Their estimations are nothing but hot air. Iran has been producing missiles for *decades. *2500-3000? Seriously?



They may NOT consider Fateh Class as Ballistic Missiles but rather Guided Rocket Artillery &/or in theater missiles. But not BM's 
You can say Iran's Fateh class is basically a modernized precision guided version the USSR Frog-7 that is categorized as Rocket Artillery NOT a BM either that OR they really have BAD intel! Fateh-110 has been mass produced for almost 2 decades! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K52_Luna-M







Even they were to calculate the Fateh-110 at low rate of 2 per week or 104 per year over the past 16 years post 04 alone Iran would have a stock of 1664 F-110 (alone)
And that's not including all the other Fateh classes F-313 Zolfaghar Dezful PG Hemoz1/2 or the new Raad-500.

And we haven't even gotten to vertically launched BM!

So no! He would have to be DELUSIONAL to think that!



DoubleYouSee said:


> compare that video with this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they just accept your power when ever some of those missile just strike on their baises,in the video which i've posted the so called expert says "in case Iran wants to hit my office in bahrain they must lunch thousands of fateh missile"......even about the khalije fars he says the ship which has shown in the video clip has been shot by a cruise missile not ballistic one.......these poor guys are so arrogant and we have to talk them with their lingo which is might and power..........lunch more missile and give more respect



These people have been milking the PG Arabs for years now! 

Just imagine with the amount of money they have been spending vs us if they were to tell the Saudi's: We'll Iran actually has 10,000 Missiles (BM, CM, Guided Artillery Rockets,....) And they have the accuracy to target bunkers 

It's really no that hard to predict how they would react!

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> They may NOT consider Fateh Class as Ballistic Missiles but rather Guided Rocket Artillery &/or in theater missiles. But not BM's
> You can say Iran's Fateh class is basically a modernized precision guided version the USSR Frog-7 that is categorized as Rocket Artillery NOT a BM either that OR they really have BAD intel! Fateh-110 has been mass produced for almost 2 decades!
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K52_Luna-M
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even they were to calculate the Fateh-110 at low rate of 2 per week or 104 per year over the past 16 years post 04 alone Iran would have a stock of 1664 F-110 (alone)
> And that's not including all the other Fateh classes F-313 Zolfaghar Dezful PG Hemoz1/2 or the new Raad-500.
> 
> And we haven't even gotten to vertically launched BM!
> 
> So no! He would have to be DELUSIONAL to think that!
> 
> 
> 
> These people have been milking the PG Arabs for years now!
> 
> Just imagine with the amount of money they have been spending vs us if they were to tell the Saudi's: We'll Iran actually has 10,000 Missiles (BM, CM, Guided Artillery Rockets,....) And they have the accuracy to target bunkers
> 
> It's really no that hard to predict how they would react!


They would have bought 10 more battalions of patriot . and at least 5 more thaad


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## Messerschmitt

VEVAK said:


> They may NOT consider Fateh Class as Ballistic Missiles but rather Guided Rocket Artillery &/or in theater missiles. But not BM's
> You can say Iran's Fateh class is basically a modernized precision guided version the USSR Frog-7 that is categorized as Rocket Artillery NOT a BM either that OR they really have BAD intel! Fateh-110 has been mass produced for almost 2 decades!
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K52_Luna-M
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even they were to calculate the Fateh-110 at low rate of 2 per week or 104 per year over the past 16 years post 04 alone Iran would have a stock of 1664 F-110 (alone)
> And that's not including all the other Fateh classes F-313 Zolfaghar Dezful PG Hemoz1/2 or the new Raad-500.
> 
> And we haven't even gotten to vertically launched BM!
> 
> So no! He would have to be DELUSIONAL to think that!
> 
> 
> 
> These people have been milking the PG Arabs for years now!
> 
> Just imagine with the amount of money they have been spending vs us if they were to tell the Saudi's: We'll Iran actually has 10,000 Missiles (BM, CM, Guided Artillery Rockets,....) And they have the accuracy to target bunkers
> 
> It's really no that hard to predict how they would react!


Iran's Fateh family of ballistic missiles is not based on the Soviet FROG-7. It was developed from the Zelzal-2 artillery missile.

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## VEVAK

Messerschmitt said:


> Iran's Fateh family of ballistic missiles is not based on the Soviet FROG-7. It was developed from the Zelzal-2 artillery missile.



Yea and what do you think the Zelzal-2 it's self was based off of?
https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/zelzal-2.htm
https://www.nti.org/learn/countries/iran/delivery-systems/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelzal-2#cite_note-nti-4

So Zelzal it's self is improved Iranian version of the Frog-7 and other missiles who themselves were also based off of the Frog-7.... There is no shame in that because that simply the starting point decades ago! 

Point is the ONLY way that 2500-3000 figure makes any kind of sense is if they categories the entire Fateh-Family as ether Guided Rocket Artillery or in theater or battlefield missiles and NOT BM's

Iran's Shahab-1, Shahab-2 & Shahab 3 Missile stock alone is well over 1500 and we haven't even gotten to the missiles mass produced over the past decade Qiam-1, Gadr-H, Ghadr-F, Sejil, Khoramshar,... 

Let alone the MOST widely produced and the most accurate of Iranian BM which is the Fateh-Family that cover 250km-1000km



Hack-Hook said:


> They would have bought 10 more battalions of patriot . and at least 5 more thaad



That's about what they would need to cover 2500-3000 missiles.... How much more money do you think the Saud's can spend especially with current Oil prices?

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> Yea and what do you think the Zelzal-2 it's self was based off of?
> https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/zelzal-2.htm
> https://www.nti.org/learn/countries/iran/delivery-systems/
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelzal-2#cite_note-nti-4
> 
> So Zelzal it's self is improved Iranian version of the Frog-7 and other missiles who themselves were also based off of the Frog-7.... There is no shame in that because that simply the starting point decades ago!
> 
> Point is the ONLY way that 2500-3000 figure makes any kind of sense is if they categories the entire Fateh-Family as ether Guided Rocket Artillery or in theater or battlefield missiles and NOT BM's
> 
> Iran's Shahab-1, Shahab-2 & Shahab 3 Missile stock alone is well over 1500 and we haven't even gotten to the missiles mass produced over the past decade Qiam-1, Gadr-H, Ghadr-F, Sejil, Khoramshar,...
> 
> Let alone the MOST widely produced and the most accurate of Iranian BM which is the Fateh-Family that cover 250km-1000km
> 
> 
> 
> That's about what they would need to cover 2500-3000 missiles.... How much more money do you think the Saud's can spend especially with current Oil prices?


Depends on how serious they are. 
And to be honnest those missile dont need to be missile they can be big artillery rockets like Zelda.


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## VEVAK

TheImmortal said:


> Iran has been mass producing missiles for 20 years. Not “decades”. Shahab-3 was late 90’s. Most of the early models like Shahab-3A are retired. Missiles fired during Iran-Iraq war were bought from NK, Libya, and Syria they weren’t mass produced.
> 
> Nobody knows how many BMs Iran can truly produce per month. Could be 10 could be 100.
> 
> I think Iran has a total arsenal of 10,000 BMs. Which isn’t a lot if you think about it.
> 
> If 20% of missiles fail and 30% of missiles get destroyed in air strikes/cruise missile during initial phase of war, that leaves 5,000 missiles that get close to target (not calculating another 20% for missiles that get intercepted).



On an unrelated note check this out: (If you don't wanna watch the entirety start from ~5:45...)

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## Messerschmitt

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## Messerschmitt

Why Iran's ballistic missiles matter: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/middle-east-watch/why-irans-ballistic-missiles-matter-132887
Does Iran harbour high-speed anti-ship-missile ambitions?: https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-balance/2020/03/iran-anti-ship-missiles-ramjet

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## PeeD

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...tests-game-changing-small-low-cost-jet-engine

So slowly the U.S military is realizing that it must make use of lower cost weapons if it wants to take out modern IADS assets in any economical way.

This approach was pioneered by Israel with its Delilah.

Next, Iran took that concept but developed the longer ranged Qods-1 CM with it and likely the future Mobin (if it enters service).

The Israeli variant of the concept was out of desperation to get a asset that can take out newer air defense systems: Kinematic at disadvantage but used in a mass attack to overwhelm the air defense system (possible due to its moderate price).

The U.S approach is the same as the Israeli one but for longer ranges + LO features. In the past it was also their only solution but a very expensive one with their JASSM.
This new weapon would now allow them to replicate the Israeli mass Delilah attack pattern.

For more critical missions the U.S is working on air launched hypersonic weapons (years away) and Israel already has a re-proposed air launched artillery rocket that allows supersonic stand-off strike.
Iran would naturally use BMs if air defense is too strong and send CMs like Qods-1 to less protected targets (avoiding the mass simultanous attack tactics of the Israelis and now U.S)

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...tests-game-changing-small-low-cost-jet-engine
> 
> So slowly the U.S military is realizing that it must make use of lower cost weapons if it wants to take out modern IADS assets in any economical way.
> 
> This approach was pioneered by Israel with its Delilah.
> 
> Next, Iran took that concept but developed the longer ranged Qods-1 CM with it and likely the future Mobin (if it enters service).
> 
> The Israeli variant of the concept was out of desperation to get a asset that can take out newer air defense systems: Kinematic at disadvantage but used in a mass attack to overwhelm the air defense system (possible due to its moderate price).
> 
> The U.S approach is the same as the Israeli one but for longer ranges + LO features. In the past it was also their only solution but a very expensive one with their JASSM.
> This new weapon would now allow them to replicate the Israeli mass Delilah attack pattern.
> 
> For more critical missions the U.S is working on air launched hypersonic weapons (years away) and Israel already has a re-proposed air launched artillery rocket that allows supersonic stand-off strike.
> Iran would naturally use BMs if air defense is too strong and send CMs like Qods-1 to less protected targets (avoiding the mass simultanous attack tactics of the Israelis and now U.S)



that is bad for Iran very very bad


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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> that is bad for Iran very very bad



It's alarming, they got something similar to the Toloue-10/TJ-150 and will create systems out of it.

The threat is kinematically very primitive but its terrain masking, LO features, coordinated multi-directional attack, range and low price makes it a credible threat.
Russia has the Pantsir to counter it.
Iran not yet, as Oghab and Separ are still away. Tor-M1 has a somewhat expensive missile for such targets and not many missiles ready to fire. Sarir 100mm AAA and Mesbah 23mm would work well for point target protection but are too short ranged and hence can't protect larger areas. Ya Zahra, has too few ready to fire missiles.

This future weapon strategy requires either whole batteries of systems to cover all 360° sectors and hence high number of systems, or a next generation system with 360° coverage (expensive) and a cheap interceptor missile or a new Sarir 100mm AAA with guided rounds.
There are also more exotic concepts.

As said, the weakspot is its low kinematic performance, no need for interceptor missiles that are designed to intercept mach-2 targets such as the Tor. So maybe even the new Iranian turbojet SAM would work sufficiently well here.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> It's alarming, they got something similar to the Toloue-10/TJ-150 and will create systems out of it.
> 
> The threat is kinematically very primitive but its terrain masking, LO features, coordinated multi-directional attack, range and low price makes it a credible threat.
> Russia has the Pantsir to counter it.
> Iran not yet, as Oghab and Separ are still away. Tor-M1 has a somewhat expensive missile for such targets and not many missiles ready to fire. Sarir 100mm AAA and Mesbah 23mm would work well for point target protection but are too short ranged and hence can't protect larger areas. Ya Zahra, has too few ready to fire missiles.
> 
> This future weapon strategy requires either whole batteries of systems to cover all 360° sectors and hence high number of systems, or a next generation system with 360° coverage (expensive) and a cheap interceptor missile or a new Sarir 100mm AAA with guided rounds.
> There are also more exotic concepts.
> 
> As said, the weakspot is its low kinematic performance, no need for interceptor missiles that are designed to intercept mach-2 targets such as the Tor. So maybe even the new Iranian turbojet SAM would work sufficiently well here.



1000% agreed and pulse those we need a system that works like 358 missile a small cruise missile that hovers above an area of danger for at least 1 hour so it can intercept any swarm attack that it sees as you mentioned they going to have LO features so optical guidance and finder is there weakness after that they are low in speed too and that is another weakness of this cheap U.S missile another weakness is that they most probably move in formation which is great target for a suicide missile with fragmentation warhead like 358 missile.

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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> 1000% agreed and pulse those we need a system that works like 358 missile a small cruise missile that hovers above an area of danger for at least 1 hour so it can intercept any swarm attack that it sees as you mentioned they going to have LO features so optical guidance and finder is there weakness after that they are low in speed too and that is another weakness of this cheap U.S missile another weakness is that they most probably move in formation which is great target for a suicide missile with fragmentation warhead like 358 missile.



A advantage CMs like the new U.S missile and Irans Qods-1 have is that by the time they arrive in the target area. they have spend a good amount of their fuel, get lighter and hence have their fastest speed.

So compared to a HARM, AGM-142 or Kh-31, it is just a high subsonic missile. But that combined with terrain masking and LO is still a deadly mix.

Missile 358 in liotering mode would be just too slow to catch up to a incoming CM, delta v is too small for timely interception.
But it could work well in head-on direct interception mode.
Liotering would work when something at even higher kinematic disadvantage is encountered, like helicopters or prop UAVs.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> A advantage CMs like the new U.S missile and Irans Qods-1 have is that by the time they arrive in the target area. they have spend a good amount of their fuel, get lighter and hence have their fastest speed.
> 
> So compared to a HARM, AGM-142 or Kh-31, it is just a high subsonic missile. But that combined with terrain masking and LO is still a deadly mix.
> 
> Missile 358 in liotering mode would be just too slow to catch up to a incoming CM, delta v is too small for timely interception.
> But it could work well in head-on direct interception mode.
> Liotering would work when something at even higher kinematic disadvantage is encountered, like helicopters or prop UAVs.



*"But it could work well in head-on direct interception mode." 
*
this is exactly my point hit them with head on direct interception before the target passes you if it pass then forget it you not going to reach it

ether that or we have to add lot more to our first layer of air defense system AA guns and short range Ogab systems or *maybe a land base more mobile laser and CIWS* air defense system.


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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> *"But it could work well in head-on direct interception mode."
> *
> this is exactly my point hit them with head on direct interception before the target passes you if it pass then forget it you not going to reach it
> 
> ether that or we have to add lot more to our first layer of air defense system AA guns and short range Ogab systems or *maybe a land base more mobile laser and CIWS* air defense system.



You have to prioritize. Some assets are point defended. Some area assets are protected by belts of point defense systems. Some assets are intentionally put at risk and have to resort to passive defense and mobility.

The highest value assets are hence protected or will be once Irans Oghab/Separ enter wide service.

IRGC-ASF future 40 Su-22 fleet exploits the same tactical flexibility such not expensive air launched CMs offer.
Su-22s made no sense in the past, but with 500-1500km ALCM they offer a flexible asset that can outflank the enemy and attack its least protected high value assets. From a distance so safe, that the age of the platform does not matter except for supersonic terrain masking fleeing capability.
Now if U.S airpower is equipped with such a cheap stand-off CM... they will tactically exploit it, well above Irans 40 Su-22, if allowed to do so (allowed to take off)...

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## 925boy

PeeD said:


> A advantage CMs like the new U.S missile and Irans Qods-1 have is that by the time they arrive in the target area. they have spend a good amount of their fuel, get lighter and hence have their fastest speed.
> 
> So compared to a HARM, AGM-142 or Kh-31, it is just a high subsonic missile. But that combined with terrain masking and LO is still a deadly mix.
> 
> Missile 358 in liotering mode would be just too slow to catch up to a incoming CM, delta v is too small for timely interception.
> But it could work well in head-on direct interception mode.
> Liotering would work when something at even higher kinematic disadvantage is encountered, like helicopters or prop UAVs.


Why i do i feel like Iran is going to use this missle in the Middle East sooner or later?? hmm...it looks like a prime assasination tool.

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## Mr Iran Eye

Iran acquires air-to-airb cruise missiles

On Thursday, March 26, the Iranian Minister of Defense detailed the defense progress of the Islamic Republic of Iran over the past year.

Brigadier General Amir Hatami said Iran had successfully manufactured high-precision ground-to-ground missiles, adding that the missiles would be further optimized. "We will strengthen the firepower of the missile heads and improve their speed and their room for maneuver."

The Iranian defense minister added that Iran would soon acquire air-launched cruise missiles.

"In the field of land defense, Iran will equip its helicopters with new weapons and increase their anti-armor range. Our helicopters will also be able to conduct more night operations, "he said.

The Iranian Minister of Defense then announced the delivery to the army of a destroyer baptized Dena and an anti-mine ship, during the year just started. "There is good news to be heard about speedboats and seaplanes," he added.

Regarding the coronavirus crisis, Amir Hatami said that all units of the Ministry of Defense had been mobilized to control this pandemic.

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## skyshadow

*Iran to enhance explosive power of missile warheads: Defense Minister*


*https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/03/28/621786/Iran-Amir-Hatami-missile-warheads*

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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> *Iran to enhance explosive power of missile warheads: Defense Minister*
> 
> 
> *https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/03/28/621786/Iran-Amir-Hatami-missile-warheads*


They probably figured the targeted soldiers may be able to dodge direct missile impact but cannot run away from the explosion wave.


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## skyshadow

Arminkh said:


> They probably figured the targeted soldiers may be able to dodge direct missile impact but cannot run away from the explosion wave.



agreed. well if you can not kill them at least make them brain dead.

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## yavar

Saudi Rydah



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244011455088902145

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244007076042543104

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244014780110770177

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## Hack-Hook

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244014780110770177


Did I correctly saw two patriot miss the incoming missile by a margin ?

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## skyshadow

@PeeD look at this PAC-3 missed one warhead it looks like missile hit the target with atleast mach 7 speed.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244029511043342336








Hack-Hook said:


> Did I correctly saw two patriot miss the incoming missile by a margin ?


yes you did

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## skyshadow

*Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) chief: "We advise U.S. officials to really care about the lives of their people in New York and the states plagued with the coronavirus rather than thinking about Hollywood scenarios and killing people in Iraq."
*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244105495591505922

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## Messerschmitt

To me it appears as if those two PAC-3 missiles we see in the video either failed to intercept the Houthi missile that is descending at high velocity or were intended for (an)other target(s). Overall, though, Houthi ballistic missiles have shown poor performance in their attacks on Saudi cities protected by Patriot systems. Their interception rate is probably too high for those limited operations to cause any significant damage.

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## GWXP

Hack-Hook said:


> Did I correctly saw two patriot miss the incoming missile by a margin ?


It seems like Patriot went after the missile body while missing the warhead....

Saudis however said that they intercepted all missiles....They always say like this even if they fail.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244253593223512064

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244251354492743680^ According to their military spokesman, Yahya Saree, 'Zulfiqar' missiles and Samad-3 drones were used in last night's attack on Riyadh.

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## skyshadow

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244253593223512064
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244251354492743680^ According to their military spokesman, Yahya Saree, 'Zulfiqar' missiles and Samad-3 drones were used in last night's attack on Riyadh.


'Zulfiqar' missiles


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## Arminkh

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244014780110770177


They obviously missed. Speed of the incoming missile is very high


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## TheImmortal

If no satellite images are released then the attack was a dud.

Let’s just wait.


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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244073386965434368


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244324771690450944


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244334772287090694

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## TheImmortal

If these missiles were successful show me the damage?

Iran’s missiles strikes were seen from space! Can’t hide damage!


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## Arminkh

TheImmortal said:


> If these missiles were successful show me the damage?
> 
> Iran’s missiles strikes were seen from space! Can’t hide damage!


Look at the video in this link and the lady's scream when the explosion wave reaches her.

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1056507/فیلم-لحظه-اصابت-موشک-یمن-به-قلب-خاک-عربستان

These guys can hide it because every nation who has the means to see the explosion from the sky is on their payroll.

The missile definitely hit the city. Now it may just not have hit anything of importance.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 618653
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244073386965434368



The Houthis claimed to have launched what they called SAMAD-3 drones. There were no footage of downing those drones.



Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244334772287090694



Those photos are the fuel tank and parts of the engine. They don't include the warhead.

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## Myself

Arminkh said:


> Look at the video in this link and the lady's scream when the explosion wave reaches her.
> 
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1056507/فیلم-لحظه-اصابت-موشک-یمن-به-قلب-خاک-عربستان
> 
> These guys can hide it because every nation who has the means to see the explosion from the sky is on their payroll.
> 
> The missile definitely hit the city. Now it may just not have hit anything of importance.


To me that is an old video for the time when one of the Patriot missiles was defective and hit the ground shortly after it failed.


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## Hassan Al-Somal

If the Houthis and allied Yemen army aren't bluffing, it looks like they got more in the oven according to their spokesman.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244283407309381638


Arminkh said:


> Look at the video in this link and the lady's scream when the explosion wave reaches her.
> 
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1056507/فیلم-لحظه-اصابت-موشک-یمن-به-قلب-خاک-عربستان
> 
> These guys can hide it because every nation who has the means to see the explosion from the sky is on their payroll.
> 
> The missile definitely hit the city. Now it may just not have hit anything of importance.



It seems Houthis are doing what Palestinians resistance groups discovered in their engagements with the Israelis: Send the Ballistic missiles / rockets in salvos. That way the air defense system is overwhelmed that SAM missiles can only engage with some of incoming missiles. This explains why the Saudi air force shot down some of them.

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## Hack-Hook

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> It seems Houthis are doing what Palestinians resistance groups discovered in their engagements with the Israelis: Send the Ballistic missiles / rockets in salvos. That way the air defense system is overwhelmed that SAM missiles can only engage with some of incoming missiles. This explains why the Saudi air force shot down some of them.


did you saw any shootdown video ?


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## TheImmortal

Arminkh said:


> Look at the video in this link and the lady's scream when the explosion wave reaches her.
> 
> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1056507/فیلم-لحظه-اصابت-موشک-یمن-به-قلب-خاک-عربستان
> 
> These guys can hide it because every nation who has the means to see the explosion from the sky is on their payroll.
> 
> The missile definitely hit the city. Now it may just not have hit anything of importance.



So no satellite imagery available?

Ok then, it’s not successful attack.

Most of Houthis successful attacks have had satellite imagery or video footage of impact posted.


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## 925boy

TheImmortal said:


> Most of Houthis successful attacks have had satellite imagery or video footage of impact posted.


So lets wait for the houthis to release the evidence then.


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## skyshadow

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> The Houthis claimed to have launched what they called SAMAD-3 drones. There were no footage of downing those drones.
> 
> 
> 
> Those photos are the fuel tank and parts of the engine. They don't include the warhead.


no we did not see any drones maybe they were intercepted

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## Hassan Al-Somal

According to this Israeli News, the Houthi missiles and drones hit Riyadh. The narrator is stating, "according to [Israeli] sources, the missiles hit their target".






If true, looks like those Houthi missiles and drones have outmaneuvered the Patriot missiles.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

Some are saying the missile fragments shown are not a Houthi missile but actually fragments of the Patriot Air Defense missile. I aint an expert, so perhaps someone with the know-how can take a look at it. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244207522069786624

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## skyshadow

why are they going in one place its was wired but now they bring in air refueling and 2 aircraft carriers and Air defenses, US is making dangerous moves war moves sooooo Iran better be ready or risk losing every thing in Iraq for Iran its *Air defense* time give them *to* *makateb Hezbollah* now or never, *Iraq* needs *Dezful ballistic missiles* now equipped with new *Raad-500 missile casing* so that it range go *above 2000 km, they can shoot at aircraft carrier Iran can not do that. if IRGC does nothing then they are bunch idiots

مهم/ آمریکا درباره حمله به نیروهای مقاومت به عبدالمهدی پیام داد کمال الحسناوی، از رهبران الحشد الشعبی: عادل عبدالمهدی نخست وزیر مستعفی پیام هایی از آمریکایی‌ها برای حمله به نیروهای جبهه مقاومت درعراق دریافت کرده است/ ایرنا



 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244678803252809730

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244728446577762315*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244707049113518082

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244703811689566208


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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> why are they going in one place its was wired but now they bring in air refueling and 2 aircraft carriers and Air defenses, US is making dangerous moves war moves sooooo Iran better be ready or risk losing every thing in Iraq for Iran its *Air defense* time give them *to* *makateb Hezbollah* now or never, *Iraq* needs *Dezful ballistic missiles* now equipped with new *Raad-500 missile casing* so that it range go *above 2000 km, they can shoot at aircraft carrier Iran can not do that. if IRGC does nothing then they are bunch idiots
> 
> مهم/ آمریکا درباره حمله به نیروهای مقاومت به عبدالمهدی پیام داد کمال الحسناوی، از رهبران الحشد الشعبی: عادل عبدالمهدی نخست وزیر مستعفی پیام هایی از آمریکایی‌ها برای حمله به نیروهای جبهه مقاومت درعراق دریافت کرده است/ ایرنا
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244678803252809730
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244728446577762315*
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244707049113518082
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244703811689566208


Doesn't it make sense to spread your troops instead of collecting all of them in one single location that can be attacked by missiles if you really are going to start a war? Or are they confident that their patriot missile system can reliably defend against missiles?

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## skyshadow

Arminkh said:


> Doesn't it make sense to spread your troops instead of collecting all of them in one single location that can be attacked by missiles if you really are going to start a war? Or are they confident that their patriot missile system can reliably defend against missiles?


ether they are fully confident that their patriots or they know Iran will not respond like when they killed gen.soleimani, they going to attack there is news that *IRGC QF commander gen.Qaani is in Iraq*


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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> why are they going in one place its was wired but now they bring in air refueling and 2 aircraft carriers and Air defenses, US is making dangerous moves war moves sooooo Iran better be ready or risk losing every thing in Iraq for Iran its *Air defense* time give them *to* *makateb Hezbollah* now or never, *Iraq* needs *Dezful ballistic missiles* now equipped with new *Raad-500 missile casing* so that it range go *above 2000 km, they can shoot at aircraft carrier Iran can not do that. if IRGC does nothing then they are bunch idiots
> 
> مهم/ آمریکا درباره حمله به نیروهای مقاومت به عبدالمهدی پیام داد کمال الحسناوی، از رهبران الحشد الشعبی: عادل عبدالمهدی نخست وزیر مستعفی پیام هایی از آمریکایی‌ها برای حمله به نیروهای جبهه مقاومت درعراق دریافت کرده است/ ایرنا
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244678803252809730
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244728446577762315*
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244707049113518082
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244703811689566208



No that is not a smart thing to do, Iraqis can make use of Fateh-110's and guided Zelzals but handing Dezfuls and Raad-500 is to important.

The U.S isn't stupid enough to move Aircraft carriers into the Persian gulf unless they are preparing to attack Iraqi forces and not Iran. Which seems to be the case. They are withdrawing to avoid casualties. This is a serious provocation and the Iraqi PMU's must make it clear through missile forces, to the Americans that they will not find safe heaven in other nations or the sea while they attack Iraq.

Iraqi PMU's must be prepared to strike American assets in Kuwait, Bahrain, Syria

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> No that is not a smart thing to do, Iraqis can make use of Fateh-110's and guided Zelzals but handing Dezfuls and Raad-500 is to important.
> 
> The U.S isn't stupid enough to move Aircraft carriers into the Persian gulf unless they are preparing to attack Iraqi forces and not Iran. Which seems to be the case. They are withdrawing to avoid casualties. This is a serious provocation and the Iraqi PMU's must make it clear through missile forces, to the Americans that they will not find safe heaven in other nations or the sea while they attack Iraq.
> 
> Iraqi PMU's must be prepared to strike American assets in Kuwait, Bahrain, Syria



Eh, the last thing Iraq want to do is have every country going against Iraq. Same thing for Iran.


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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Eh, the last thing Iraq want to do is have every country going against Iraq. Same thing for Iran.



Iraqi PMU's attacking U.S assets in other nations wouldn't provoke a response against the Iraqi Army or Government in my opinion. And I think you know this as well. 

Iran doesn't want that either but If the U.S attacks the PMU's and one can imagine that they will try to retaliate and I don't think that would again provoke a direct confrontation with Iran. Just the PMU's


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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Iraqi PMU's attacking U.S assets in other nations wouldn't provoke a response against the Iraqi Army or Government in my opinion. And I think you know this as well.
> 
> Iran doesn't want that either but If the U.S attacks the PMU's and one can imagine that they will try to retaliate and I don't think that would again provoke a direct confrontation with Iran. Just the PMU's



Who does the PMU work for? Iran or the Iraqi government. Because I can guarantee if the PMU is together with Iraqi mlitary attacking U.S. assets. There will be casualties among the Iraqi military.


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## Sineva

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> Some are saying the missile fragments shown are not a Houthi missile but actually fragments of the Patriot Air Defense missile. I aint an expert, so perhaps someone with the know-how can take a look at it.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244207522069786624


Yeah,that looks like a pac-3 missile all right.


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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Who does the PMU work for? Iran or the Iraqi government. Because I can guarantee if the PMU is together with Iraqi mlitary attacking U.S. assets. There will be casualties among the Iraqi military.



I think you misunderstood me, I had said the Iraqi PMU. I never said the Iraqi Army or Government is involved. None the less you are probably right if that scenario was true but that is a 0.1% chance type scenario.


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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> I think you misunderstood me, I had said the Iraqi PMU. I never said the Iraqi Army or Government is involved. None the less you are probably right if that scenario was true but that is a 0.1% chance type scenario.



Doesn't the PMU served under the Iraqi government or the Iranians?


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## Shams313

Oldman1 said:


> Doesn't the PMU served under the Iraqi government or the Iranians?


Under iraqi people..by iraqi people ,for iraqi people.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244764023016632321

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## Shams313

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244764023016632321


I have both of em in my pc, not rare at all...


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## skyshadow

*gen.Qaani is in Iraq 






*

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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> *gen.Qaani is in Iraq
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Is he considered some kind of missile??!


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## skyshadow

Arminkh said:


> Is he considered some kind of missile??!


what???


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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> what???


What does he being in Iraq has to do with this thread?


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## skyshadow

Arminkh said:


> What does he being in Iraq has to do with this thread?


any thing happens to him and Iran is going to respond with missiles

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## 925boy

Oldman1 said:


> Eh, the last thing Iraq want to do is have every country going against Iraq. Same thing for Iran.


You have to admit it- He has a good point (at least)in his post. US is probably focused on cutting off the Octopus'(Iran) "tentacles"(PMU militias) as a special project now...

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## Oldman1

Shams313 said:


> Under iraqi people..by iraqi people ,for iraqi people.



Okay then the Iraqi people who attacked the base which led to an American dead which led to retaliation against the PMU under the Iraqis which led to attack on the American Embassy which led to the dead of Iran's dear general and PMU's leader.

So you see what happens when something like that happens.


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## Shams313

Oldman1 said:


> Okay then the Iraqi people who attacked the base which led to an American dead which led to retaliation against the PMU under the Iraqis which led to attack on the American Embassy which led to the dead of Iran's dear general and PMU's leader.
> 
> So you see what happens when something like that happens.


Hmn, that general was for iraqi people, supported by iraqi people, Americans killed him, now iraqis gonna poke some rats....more Americans gonna be sacrificed

By the way, rats should be in holes, what they r doing in Iraq. Does their lands realy lacks???


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## Oldman1

Shams313 said:


> Hmn, that general was for iraqi people, supported by iraqi people, Americans killed him, now iraqis gonna poke some rats....more Americans gonna be sacrificed
> 
> By the way, rats should be in holes, what they r doing in Iraq. Does their lands realy lacks???



What do you think they were doing back in Iraq? Fighting ISIS. We left, came back after ISIS was overwhelming Iraq.


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## Messerschmitt

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## ashool

Oldman1 said:


> What do you think they were doing back in Iraq? Fighting ISIS. We left, came back after ISIS was overwhelming Iraq.


are you SIRUCE???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they are fighting isis lol
are you use druge ? its so shocking people usa fighting (stealing oil killing people of iraq and syria .helping isis leader sending them to afghanistan to fight taliban bombing who fight isis murdering cammonder of army who fight isis)
its so damn fighting isis good job usa terror force

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245899326477471751^ Anyone knows if this is from the Houthis' latest operation or older an attack?

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## Iskander

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245899326477471751^ Anyone knows if this is from the Houthis' latest operation or older an attack?


Old video


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## GWXP

Iskander said:


> Old video


I have never seen it before---might be new one

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## Iskander

GWXP said:


> I have never seen it before---might be new one


I have seen it before, it's from 2017 attack on capital Riyad

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## Stryker1982

Fajr-5's deployed near Strait of Hormuz. Unclear if its routine but I didn't realize that Fajr-5's would actually be quite useful for targeting ships as they are guided missiles if I'm not mistaken.

Lots of them too

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246187879937773568

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## Shams313

Stryker1982 said:


> Fajr-5's deployed near Strait of Hormuz. Unclear if its routine but I didn't realize that Fajr-5's would actually be quite useful for targeting ships as they are guided missiles if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Lots of them too
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246187879937773568


That may be the guided one...

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## TheImmortal

Stryker1982 said:


> Fajr-5's deployed near Strait of Hormuz. Unclear if its routine but I didn't realize that Fajr-5's would actually be quite useful for targeting ships as they are guided missiles if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Lots of them too
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246187879937773568



Fajr would not be useful targeting anything other than an aircraft carrier. While it is a guided weapon it is trying to hit a moving target. 

Google evasive maneuvers for destroyers and frigates. They can do quite impressive quick turns to avoid a missile.


Seems like Fajr 5 are more cannon fodder to distract enemy systems while the cruise and PG missile slide through

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## Navigator

TheImmortal said:


> Fajr would not be useful targeting anything other than an aircraft carrier. While it is a guided weapon it is trying to hit a moving target.



Tankers.. Huge, slow and poorly maneuvering target.

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## GWXP

For comparison single Russian MRLS Smerch with multiple rockets covers an area of 800m x 800m....

Multiple Fajr 5s can cover substantial area in the Strait of Hormuz leaving no chance of escaping for tankers, destroyers or aircraft carriers.

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## Shams313

GWXP said:


> For comparison single Russian MRLS Smerch with multiple rockets covers an area of 800m x 800m....
> 
> Multiple Fajr 5s can cover substantial area in the Strait of Hormuz leaving no chance of escaping for tankers, destroyers or aircraft carriers.


Yep a brust lunch will confuse their AD and CIWS , and Cruise missiles and PG gulf missiles will follow the shadow for confirm hit.

And one hit from PG missile, the meme music will start to play.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246517665159696390

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## Messerschmitt

@PeeD

I wonder if Iran is going for a similar design as North Korea's Pukguksong-2 (KN-15) for their next two-stage solid-fuel MRBM. Since Iran and North Korea, at least to some degree, cooperate on ballistic missile development, I wouldn't be too surprised to see an Iranian take on the Pukguksong-2 in the future. Both countries have most likely developed their R-27 (SS-N-6 Serb) SLBM derived Khorramshahr and Hwasong-10 (BM-25 Musudan) missiles in cooperation. They could have aswell cooperated on the Pukguksong-2 but that's of course speculation.

The Pukguksong-2 has an estimated length of 8-9 m (some estimates are higher) and a diameter of 1.4-1.5 m. Its effective range is estimated between 1200 and 2000 km (some estimates are higher) and it has an estimated payload capacity of 1.6-1.7 tons. The missile uses lightweight composite casing materials. Further weight saving (if feasible) through more extensive use of durable lightweight materials could potentially increase its range (if needed) or maximum payload. Iran has demonstrated its ability to produce carbon-based composite materials for their missiles (RVs, motor, casing etc.) on an economical scale already (e.g. Dezful, Raad-500). 

Equipped with a MaRV or MIRV derived from the Emad or Khorramshahr this mobile Iranian fast-response Pukguksong-2 would add another robust layer of deterrence for Iran by enabling it to quickly strike any land-based static target in the region with multiple warheads (3x ~500 kg) per missile and possibly even sea-based targets in the future.


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## TheImmortal

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1246517665159696390



This is stupid the entire Iranian coast is laden with CMs and rockets most of the time. 

People make it seem like Iran JUST did this. No the coast has always had hundreds of CM sites ready at a moments notice.

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## PeeD

Messerschmitt said:


> @PeeD
> 
> I wonder if Iran is going for a similar design as North Korea's Pukguksong-2 (KN-15) for their next two-stage solid-fuel MRBM. Since Iran and North Korea, at least to some degree, cooperate on ballistic missile development, I wouldn't be too surprised to see an Iranian take on the Pukguksong-2 in the future. Both countries have most likely developed their R-27 (SS-N-6 Serb) SLBM derived Khorramshahr and Hwasong-10 (BM-25 Musudan) missiles in cooperation. They could have aswell cooperated on the Pukguksong-2 but that's of course speculation.
> 
> The Pukguksong-2 has an estimated length of 8-9 m (some estimates are higher) and a diameter of 1.4-1.5 m. Its effective range is estimated between 1200 and 2000 km (some estimates are higher) and it has an estimated payload capacity of 1.6-1.7 tons. The missile uses lightweight composite casing materials. Further weight saving (if feasible) through more extensive use of durable lightweight materials could potentially increase its range (if needed) or maximum payload. Iran has demonstrated its ability to produce carbon-based composite materials for their missiles (RVs, motor, casing etc.) on an economical scale already (e.g. Dezful, Raad-500).
> 
> Equipped with a MaRV or MIRV derived from the Emad or Khorramshahr this mobile Iranian fast-response Pukguksong-2 would add another robust layer of deterrence for Iran by enabling it to quickly strike any land-based static target in the region with multiple warheads (3x ~500 kg) per missile and possibly even sea-based targets in the future.



Sure the follow on of the Sejil will do so: Composite or full carbon fiber casing + MaRV maybe multiple.
Sejil is more than a decade.
However it wont be the same as North Koreas, they have different requirements.

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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248006925649731584

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248455919077216256

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248455922763984896

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248658751592083456^ He is referring to this claim:
"The source also added 'the group's fighters receive intensive military training on most types of weapons under the supervision of Iranian advisers,' noting that they are also receive 'training on *short-range and long-range smart missiles with a range of more than 500 km* [310 miles], as well as courses on how to storm government facilities and camps and carry out abductions.'"
Source: https://www.memri.org/reports/iran-...group-league-revolutionaries-target-us-forces

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## Oldman1

ashool said:


> are you SIRUCE???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> they are fighting isis lol
> are you use druge ? its so shocking people usa fighting (stealing oil killing people of iraq and syria .helping isis leader sending them to afghanistan to fight taliban bombing who fight isis murdering cammonder of army who fight isis)
> its so damn fighting isis good job usa terror force



Who you think turn the tide against ISIS in Iraq so quickly? Sure as well wasn't the Iranians.


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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Who you think turn the tide against ISIS in Iraq so quickly? Sure as well wasn't the Iranians.



You're right, It was the Iraqi PMU that showed up with Iranian backing to stop them on the ground. While USAF was key to winning the war completely, PMU was key to halting them advancing to baghdad.

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> You're right, It was the Iraqi PMU that showed up with Iranian backing to stop them on the ground. While USAF was key to winning the war completely, PMU was key to halting them advancing to baghdad.



Along with U.S. special forces, artillery, helos, etc. along with air support. Wouldn't have retaken the territory in few months without.


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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Along with U.S. special forces, artillery, helos, etc. along with air support. Wouldn't have retaken the territory in few months without.



It took alot longer than a few months, but I mentioned USAF which pretty much covers most of it. Except artillery as you mentioned, and of course the special operators to guide them.

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## 925boy

Stryker1982 said:


> It took alot longer than a few months, but I mentioned USAF which pretty much covers most of it. Except artillery as you mentioned, and of course the special operators to guide them.


why ISIS resurgence in Iraq now that US troops are preparing to exit Iraq? seems suspicious.

I cannot trust that US does not coordinate with ISIS AT ALL. sorry.



Oldman1 said:


> Along with U.S. special forces, artillery, helos, etc. along with air support. Wouldn't have retaken the territory in few months without.


well if US contributed all that then why did IRaqis have to fight for their lives and country(literally) when fighting ISIS? yo're exaggerating the effectiveness of what US military did.

I say this also beacuse most wars are determined byt what happens on the ground. US was in the sky, as normal, so that obviously didnt turn the tides. tide in war is always determined by who controls the ground. IF not for Iranian support to PMU AND the PMU, ISIS Would have run over Baghdad, and US would've been happy, so pls give US half credit....

If US military is so strong why would it not be able to smash ISIS in a short time like few months?


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## Shams313

925boy said:


> why ISIS resurgence in Iraq now that US troops are preparing to exit Iraq? seems suspicious.
> 
> I cannot trust that US does not coordinate with ISIS AT ALL. sorry.
> 
> 
> well if US contributed all that then why did IRaqis have to fight for their lives and country(literally) when fighting ISIS? yo're exaggerating the effectiveness of what US military did.
> 
> I say this also beacuse most wars are determined byt what happens on the ground. US was in the sky, as normal, so that obviously didnt turn the tides. tide in war is always determined by who controls the ground. IF not for Iranian support to PMU AND the PMU, ISIS Would have run over Baghdad, and US would've been happy, so pls give US half credit....
> 
> If US military is so strong why would it not be able to smash ISIS in a short time like few months?


They r here for back door weapon Selling and sponsoring the war...

ISIS actively used Americans stuffs.

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## Caspian Parsi

Oldman1 said:


> Who you think turn the tide against ISIS in Iraq so quickly? Sure as well wasn't the Iranians.


you know , clearly you repeat what US maine stream news feeding your tiny brain you should apply for a job in Fox news bulshit factory,never know you might get the job that Boulton had . you have your head so far up your backside that I don't know if you can be saved , your comment shows you have the wrong knowledge and perception of the situation .

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## Iskander

Iranian cruise missiles coverage

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## sahureka2

HOW PRECISE ARE IRANIAN MISSILES? ANALYSIS OF MISSILE STRIKES ON U.S. MILITARY BASE IN IRAQ
https://southfront.org/how-precise-...missile-strikes-on-u-s-military-base-in-iraq/

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## Oldman1

Caspian Parsi said:


> you know , clearly you repeat what US maine stream news feeding your tiny brain you should apply for a job in Fox news bulshit factory,never know you might get the job that Boulton had . you have your head so far up your backside that I don't know if you can be saved , your comment shows you have the wrong knowledge and perception of the situation .



Wait wait, so you are saying that the Iranians turned the tide against ISIS in Iraq? You really believe that crap?



925boy said:


> why ISIS resurgence in Iraq now that US troops are preparing to exit Iraq? seems suspicious.
> 
> I cannot trust that US does not coordinate with ISIS AT ALL. sorry.
> 
> 
> well if US contributed all that then why did IRaqis have to fight for their lives and country(literally) when fighting ISIS? yo're exaggerating the effectiveness of what US military did.
> 
> I say this also beacuse most wars are determined byt what happens on the ground. US was in the sky, as normal, so that obviously didnt turn the tides. tide in war is always determined by who controls the ground. IF not for Iranian support to PMU AND the PMU, ISIS Would have run over Baghdad, and US would've been happy, so pls give US half credit....
> 
> If US military is so strong why would it not be able to smash ISIS in a short time like few months?



Exaggerating the effectiveness? Yes the Iraqis gained territory, but ONLY when there was air and artillery support coordinated by U.S. forces working with the Iraqis. Even with the Kurds. Because a moment ago ISIS was gaining territory fast. And Iraqi military was retreating en massed. Even when they had massive amount of tanks and and other vehicles.


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## Caspian Parsi

Oldman1 said:


> Wait wait, so you are saying that the Iranians turned the tide against ISIS in Iraq? You really believe that crap?


NO never said that ! Iran did have a part in defeating Isis and no one can deny it , USA did help in Iraq because they are stationed there but USA let Isis run free in syria for obvious reasons ,and still do . no one can deny that either .


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## ashool

Oldman1 said:


> Wait wait, so you are saying that the Iranians turned the tide against ISIS in Iraq? You really believe that crap?
> 
> 
> 
> Exaggerating the effectiveness? Yes the Iraqis gained territory, but ONLY when there was air and artillery support coordinated by U.S. forces working with the Iraqis. Even with the Kurds. Because a moment ago ISIS was gaining territory fast. And Iraqi military was retreating en massed. Even when they had massive amount of tanks and and other vehicles.


where are you from .are you american if yes good for us if the usa marine be like you so fool we dont need send missile to send them to hell .bic they are not have brain to need to kill .go see your stupid trump per. in اhis debate with clinton who said we made isis and you m.f going to fight with what u made .in first iraq want usa support but those basters dont even shut one ball to isis to play with it and noww you creature help isis leaders and they have vip ticket for travel with your army terrorists

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## mohsen

Oldman1 said:


> Wait wait, so you are saying that the Iranians turned the tide against ISIS in Iraq? You really believe that crap?


US is the same country which it's foreign minister was going around in the world to force governments recognize the ISIS as a legitimate faction.


Yes, Iran saved both Iraq and Syria from US-backed terrorist groups (both Iraqis and Syrians confirm this), so the very same US which did nothing when Baghdad was falling, changed it's plan to not be in the loosing end. that's it and nothing more.

In fact Iraqi armed forces were against the cooperation of US in their operations, it was just the insist of US and a weak government in Iraq which gave in to US demands.

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## Stryker1982

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251623393662849027

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156149005740630017^ Satellite image showing the impacts of Fateh-110B SRBMs that were fired at the HQs of the PDKI in Koya, Iraqi Kurdistan, on 8 September 2018

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156149037436997632^ Impact points marked on another satellite image

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255488124886626306

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## Oldman1

mohsen said:


> US is the same country which it's foreign minister was going around in the world to force governments recognize the ISIS as a legitimate faction.
> 
> 
> Yes, Iran saved both Iraq and Syria from US-backed terrorist groups (both Iraqis and Syrians confirm this), so the very same US which did nothing when Baghdad was falling, changed it's plan to not be in the loosing end. that's it and nothing more.
> 
> In fact Iraqi armed forces were against the cooperation of US in their operations, it was just the insist of US and a weak government in Iraq which gave in to US demands.



Iraqi armed forces or the Iranian back militias that were against the cooperation with U.S. led forces? Because I know for a fact it didn't go that way?


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## Arminkh

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255488124886626306


Why does he do that? It is reckless. He has no need to go personally.

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## TruthHurtz

Arminkh said:


> Why does he do that? It is reckless. He has no need to go personally.



Maybe his bodyguards are carrying manpads now lol


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258470171565363201

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## Shawnee

Arminkh said:


> Why does he do that? It is reckless. He has no need to go personally.



It is a show of power and intelligence.

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## Stefano84

Does anyone know something about this missile that I saw on a Iran military channel on Instagram?

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## skyshadow

Stefano84 said:


> Does anyone know something about this missile that I saw on a Iran military channel on Instagram?


that pic is 7 years old its from an IRGC exhibition its cluster warhead on ZeLZal (earthquake) racket speed mach 3-4 and 300 km range its old missile

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## Blue In Green

Any news or updates about that 700km anti-ship supersonic cruise-missile?


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## Philosopher

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Any news or updates about that 700km anti-ship supersonic cruise-missile?



Minus its range, from what I have seen, nothing was confirmed on its speed. People just assumed it may be supersonic. No direct evidence of that.

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## Draco.IMF

precision-guided 333mm Fajr-4 artillery rocket being dropped from an #IRGC-ASF Su-22. Look like it might be a drop test.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259098338177269761

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## Blue In Green

Philosopher said:


> Minus its range, from what I have seen, nothing was confirmed on its speed. People just assumed it may be supersonic. No direct evidence of that.



Ah, well heres to hoping that it is supersonic at-least. 


Draco.IMF said:


> precision-guided 333mm Fajr-4 artillery rocket being dropped from an #IRGC-ASF Su-22. Look like it might be a drop test.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259098338177269761



Whoa!! When was this?


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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> precision-guided 333mm Fajr-4 artillery
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259098338177269761


 Look like Raad 300 or 307

I don’t think is 333 millimetres

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259094715728871424

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259107089298927616
Full video can be found on Hajizadeh's telegram channel: https://telegram.me/s/hajizadeh_org

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## Blue In Green

Air launched Iranian Ballistic missile when?

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## 925boy

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Air launched Iranian Ballistic missile when?


Thats what it sounds like.....but if we try to think outside the box, Iran IS that player that can show the world "all the things" you can do with missiles. lol.

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## Blue In Green

925boy said:


> Thats what it sounds like.....but if we try to think outside the box, Iran IS that player that can show the world "all the things" you can do with missiles. lol.



Personally, I have a strong feeling Iran already has developed air-launched BMs, it just hasn't shown it off in full yet.

This drop-test of the Fajr-4 was just a hint to season up things for the time being.

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## Sina-1

Potentially extremely deadly if the accuracy of air launched fajr 4 is similar to the latest TBMs. Range is estimated to 700-800km. That’s insane! Fajr 4 has a fraction of the cost of TBMs. They can drop these things like candy!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259124652963700737

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## 925boy

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Personally, I have a strong feeling Iran already has developed air-launched BMs, it just hasn't shown it off in full yet.
> 
> This drop-test of the Fajr-4 was just a hint to season up thins for the time being.


um.....Very likely.

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## Blue In Green

Sina-1 said:


> Potentially extremely deadly if the accuracy of air launched fajr 4 is similar to the latest TBMs. Range is estimated to 700-800km. That’s insane! Fajr 4 has a fraction of the cost of TBMs. They can drop these things like candy!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259124652963700737



Essentially Iran's current strike aircraft got a really deadly, cheaply produced air-launched munition that can saturate enemy fortifications with relative ease from long-range.

This is actually quite a substantial development all things considered!!

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## Shawnee

Sina-1 said:


> Potentially extremely deadly if the accuracy of air launched fajr 4 is similar to the latest TBMs. Range is estimated to 700-800km. That’s insane! Fajr 4 has a fraction of the cost of TBMs. They can drop these things like candy!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1259124652963700737




Can you load this on Karrar too? Cruise missile was loaded on Karrar before.

Karrar payload is 700 kg and if we say this is Fajr 4, it is about 700-900 kg.

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## Sina-1

Shawnee said:


> Can you load this on Karrar too? Cruise missile was loaded on Karrar before.
> 
> Karrar payload is 700 kg and if we say this is Fajr 4, it is about 700-900 kg.



I would say yes. The only thing that could have hindered karrar to carry fajr 4 is ground clearance at take off. However since it is rail launched then it is absolutely possible. How they would solve the guidance issue at the moment is beyond me. Maybe future irgc satellites could cover that?!



BlueInGreen2 said:


> Essentially Iran's current strike aircraft got a really deadly, cheaply produced air-launched munition that can saturate enemy fortifications with relative ease from long-range.
> 
> This is actually quite a substantial development all things considered!!


You got to love irgc ingenuity!

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## Philosopher

Sina-1 said:


> Potentially extremely deadly if the accuracy of air launched fajr 4 is similar to the latest TBMs. Range is estimated to 700-800km. That’s insane! Fajr 4 has a fraction of the cost of TBMs. They can drop these things like candy!



Dadash, are you sure about that range? That would insane if true. A while new dynamic to the Iranian missiles!! Very good news.

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## Sina-1

Philosopher said:


> Dadash, are you sure about that range? That would insane if true. A while new dynamic to the Iranian missiles!! Very good news.


No I’m not 
I got the figure from a twitter analyst who later downestimated to 150-200km. Still a respectable range. 700km would have been ridiculous for a missile the size of fajr4.


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## Mithridates

do you guys remember the Israeli rampage missile?? it's the Iranian version.






you can use this kind of missiles for targeting guarded enemy outposts without fearing their ADs.

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## Blue In Green

What air-craft within Iran's current inventory can use this missile? 

Su-24, F-4 Phantoms, F-14s, Mig-29s ?


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## Mithridates

BlueInGreen2 said:


> What air-craft within Iran's current inventory can use this missile?
> 
> Su-24, F-4 Phantoms, F-14s, Mig-29s ?


it's satellite guided, so every type. hercules, Ilyushin, pc-7... bell-206,212,214...

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## Aspen

Arminkh said:


> Why does he do that? It is reckless. He has no need to go personally.



Shows confidence and willingness to be on the ground himself. 

It is a rare and admirable thing to see a military leader go out and see the situation for himself in a world where most military leaders hide in bunkers.



BlueInGreen2 said:


> Any news or updates about that 700km anti-ship supersonic cruise-missile?



According to Janes Defence, Ya-Ali has a jet engine inlet and possibly uses a version of the Toloue-4 turbojet produced for longer-range anti-ship missiles and it is reported to have a range of 700 km

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## Sineva

BlueInGreen2 said:


> What air-craft within Iran's current inventory can use this missile?
> 
> Su-24, F-4 Phantoms, F-14s, Mig-29s ?


Basically anything that you can physically fit it onto and can carry the weight of it.
In addition by designing a separating warhead for the weapon you can extend the range of it even further while making interception that much more difficult.


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## Aspen

Sineva said:


> Basically anything that you can physically fit it onto and can carry the weight of it.
> In addition by designing a separating warhead for the weapon you can extend the range of it even further while making interception that much more difficult.



Looking forward to seeing it in action soon

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## TheImmortal

Guidance doesn’t make sense. Needs GPS or GLONASS for any substantial range.

Another possibility is this is a expansion on the recently revealed project that turned “dummy” bombs into precision 3-10M PGMs. Maybe Air Force is testing the conversion kit on the Fajr series. It would allow to use the stockpiles of older fajr as PGMs.

Not sure about Iran building a 150KM air launched rocket. Issue is guidance.


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## Hack-Hook

BlueInGreen2 said:


> What air-craft within Iran's current inventory can use this missile?
> 
> Su-24, F-4 Phantoms, F-14s, Mig-29s ?


probably , F-4 Mig-29 and Su-24 and Su-22 and perhaps Mirage F-1 (it can carry one 750kg Exocet Antiship missile so it probably can carry this one too.)

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## Messerschmitt

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## ashool

*گزارش پنتاگون درباره تلفات حمله سپاه به عین الاسد +سند*
به گزارش مشرق، عطاالله مهاجرانی در توییتی با انتشار تصویر سند گزارش پنتاگون درباره تلفات حمله سپاه به عین الاسد:

۱۳۹ کشته و ۱۴۶ مجروح ، خسارت ارتش آمریکا در پایگاه عین الاسد، از سردرد چند سرباز بسیار فراتر است

حمله به عین الاسد نه تنها انتقام خون شهیدان سلیمانی و ابومهندس و همراهان ،مبتنی بر توانایی و اصول اخلاق نظامی بود، بلکه نقطه عطفی در حفظ اقتدار ملی ایران به شمار می آید. ترامپ ظاهرا دروغ گفته است

این گزارش مربوط به ۱۳ ژانویه(۲۳ دی ۱۳۹۸) است.

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## QWECXZ

ashool said:


> *گزارش پنتاگون درباره تلفات حمله سپاه به عین الاسد +سند*
> به گزارش مشرق، عطاالله مهاجرانی در توییتی با انتشار تصویر سند گزارش پنتاگون درباره تلفات حمله سپاه به عین الاسد:
> 
> ۱۳۹ کشته و ۱۴۶ مجروح ، خسارت ارتش آمریکا در پایگاه عین الاسد، از سردرد چند سرباز بسیار فراتر است
> 
> حمله به عین الاسد نه تنها انتقام خون شهیدان سلیمانی و ابومهندس و همراهان ،مبتنی بر توانایی و اصول اخلاق نظامی بود، بلکه نقطه عطفی در حفظ اقتدار ملی ایران به شمار می آید. ترامپ ظاهرا دروغ گفته است
> 
> این گزارش مربوط به ۱۳ ژانویه(۲۳ دی ۱۳۹۸) است.


It seems that both Mohajerani and Mashreghnews have deleted their posts.


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## Hack-Hook

well s better when you report such reports , put a link to the originl link of report


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## ashool

Hack-Hook said:


> well s better when you report such reports , put a link to the originl link of report


it treat to but i mistakenly send it here i think its missile threat 


QWECXZ said:


> It seems that both Mohajerani and Mashreghnews have deleted their posts.


u r here too iranian patriot from albani who know english like mother land ones lol
its no need to be so happy g .hajizade said they have video of attack dont be so happy good speaking english body only think why they dont show video when understand go and crying like usa marine in PERSIAN GULF


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## Arminkh

ashool said:


> *گزارش پنتاگون درباره تلفات حمله سپاه به عین الاسد +سند*
> به گزارش مشرق، عطاالله مهاجرانی در توییتی با انتشار تصویر سند گزارش پنتاگون درباره تلفات حمله سپاه به عین الاسد:
> 
> ۱۳۹ کشته و ۱۴۶ مجروح ، خسارت ارتش آمریکا در پایگاه عین الاسد، از سردرد چند سرباز بسیار فراتر است
> 
> حمله به عین الاسد نه تنها انتقام خون شهیدان سلیمانی و ابومهندس و همراهان ،مبتنی بر توانایی و اصول اخلاق نظامی بود، بلکه نقطه عطفی در حفظ اقتدار ملی ایران به شمار می آید. ترامپ ظاهرا دروغ گفته است
> 
> این گزارش مربوط به ۱۳ ژانویه(۲۳ دی ۱۳۹۸) است.


The letter is fake. It surfaced right after the attack.

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## skyshadow

sooooo what nowwwwwww?????????

*south of siyaf is a secret iranian nuclear site opinion*
*
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/south-of-siyaf-is-a-secret-iranian-nuclear-site-opinion-627905*

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> sooooo what nowwwwwww?????????
> 
> *south of siyaf is a secret iranian nuclear site opinion
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/south-of-siyaf-is-a-secret-iranian-nuclear-site-opinion-627905*



404 error

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## Shawnee

TheImmortal said:


> 404 error



Did they remove it?


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## Aspen

skyshadow said:


> sooooo what nowwwwwww?????????
> 
> *south of siyaf is a secret iranian nuclear site opinion
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/south-of-siyaf-is-a-secret-iranian-nuclear-site-opinion-627905*



Jpost, take it with less than a grain of salt

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## ashool

Arminkh said:


> The letter is fake. It surfaced right after the attack.





TheImmortal said:


> 404 error


why is fake bic surfaced after attack did u want before attack show that???maybe the video sepah recorded of attack come out i think in that condition u say its fake .in near future g.hajizade show that and we can see who many go to hell let alone brain damage


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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> sooooo what nowwwwwww?????????
> 
> *south of siyaf is a secret iranian nuclear site opinion
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/south-of-siyaf-is-a-secret-iranian-nuclear-site-opinion-627905*


I get this


Code:


Error 404 - Page not found

Sorry but the page you are looking for cannot be found

You have probably typed the address incorrectly, or the page you were looking for may have been moved or deleted.

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## Philosopher

With regards to the letter claim. No need to be insistent that Americans died in the attack. It's not like Iran was _trying_ to kill them.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260633060216799232^ Fateh-110/M-600 in Syria in 2016

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## ashool

Philosopher said:


> With regards to the letter claim. No need to be insistent that Americans died in the attack. It's not like Iran was _trying_ to kill them.


what do u mean?


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## Philosopher

ashool said:


> what do u mean?



I have seen people trying to insist the Americans are trying to cover up the fact soldier died in the attack. Maybe they did, I don't know. What I am saying is it does not really matter because it is not like Iran was trying to kill them. If Iran wanted them dead, it would not have given any warning.

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## Blue In Green

Philosopher said:


> I have seen people trying to insist the Americans are trying to cover up the fact soldier died in the attack. Maybe they did, I don't know. What I am saying is it does not really matter because it is not like Iran was trying to kill them. If Iran wanted them dead, it would not have given any warning.



Those who keep focusing on the supposed troop death cover up can't see the forest for the trees (well not all of them). As PeeD said quite some time ago when the operation went down: this Iranian strike was a battle-field weapons test of Iranian made BMs/Qausi-BMs to show the world, especially Israel, Saudi Arabia and the U.S.A that Iran means business and can back-up the rhetoric with actual real world results.

All the little details I personally no longer care about, now we have to wait and see what else Iran is working on and how open they will be in showing it off to us in the future, thankfully Iran has given us a lot test-footage and real-world data to ponder on. so for that I am thankful.

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## Arminkh

ashool said:


> why is fake bic surfaced after attack did u want before attack show that???maybe the video sepah recorded of attack come out i think in that condition u say its fake .in near future g.hajizade show that and we can see who many go to hell let alone brain damage


I just said the letter is old from the days that attack happened. Beck in the time it was declared as fake by Pentagon and the senator whom the letter is ent to als said he never received such letter. If IRGC has any video it's time they showed it.


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## Philosopher

So we know the Americans are developing a 1000 mile ranged "super-cannon".







https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ile-range-supergun-concept-heres-what-we-know


Such a thing is a must for Iran. Imagine 100's of these (both mobile version and static versions) throughout Iran. This technology will be a great complementary weapon to Iran's current missile strategy.


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## Shawnee

Philosopher said:


> So we know the Americans are developing a 1000 mile ranged "super-cannon".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ile-range-supergun-concept-heres-what-we-know
> 
> 
> Such a thing is a must for Iran. Imagine 100's of these (both mobile version and static versions) throughout Iran. This technology will be a great complementary weapon to Iran's current missile strategy.




The idea has been around since Jules Verne and Nazi Germany.

Even Saddam had unsuccessful tried. Their propaganda was we want to hit Tehran with cannon.

Yet again I am open to try new ideas.


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## Blue In Green

Philosopher said:


> So we know the Americans are developing a 1000 mile ranged "super-cannon".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ile-range-supergun-concept-heres-what-we-know
> 
> 
> Such a thing is a must for Iran. Imagine 100's of these (both mobile version and static versions) throughout Iran. This technology will be a great complementary weapon to Iran's current missile strategy.



I'm down for Iran building super-long range cannons if they could do it cost effectively.

But is such a weapons platform a must, given all the advancements Iran has made with missile-tech?


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## Philosopher

Shawnee said:


> The idea has been around since Jules Verne and Nazi Germany.
> 
> Even Saddam had unsuccessful tried. Their propaganda was we want to hit Tehran with cannon.
> 
> Yet again I am open to try new ideas.



Technologies manifest at later dates then we they were first theorised. Even these hypersonic glide systems were known about going back to the 1940's, but only now we're seeing those technologies mature. This cannon is another but albeit smaller example.



BlueInGreen2 said:


> But is such a weapons platform a must, given all the advancements Iran has made with missile-tech?



Once you have built the cannons, then you are comparing costs of the shells vs cost of missiles. Not only that, Iran will be able to mass produce the shells much faster and cheaper than missiles. Within the 1000 miles or so radius, these systems will be very complementary to Iran's missile. One could even see these systems become the initial go to weapons to attack targets (air defence, light assets etc) followed by or alongside a barrage of missiles.

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## PeeD

Key problem would be guidance electronics/systems that survive the ~350g acceleration loads.
Unguided and it may be of no useful tactical value.

It clearly show that the U.S is aware that "enemy A2/AD" menace cant be well handled by its conventional airpower concept.
The plan would be to use a battery of these and send a unguided barrage, once satellite early warning detects a missile launch, hoping to kill the TEL in time.

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## QWECXZ

Philosopher said:


> Once you have built the cannons, then you are comparing costs of the shells vs cost of missiles. Not only that, Iran will be able to mass produce the shells much faster and cheaper than missiles. Within the 1000 miles or so radius, these systems will be very complementary to Iran's missile. One could even see these systems become the initial go to weapons to attack targets (air defence, light assets etc) followed by a barrage of missiles.


I think you can't consider only the cost of shells. Loading the canon itself for a new launch will be expensive too. After all, an explosion that fires the projectile must have its energy come from something. No?

Moreover, why would anyone scrap guided missiles for unguided ballistic projectiles?


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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> I think you can't consider only the cost of shells. Loading the canon itself for a new launch will be expensive too. After all, an explosion that fires the projectile must have its energy come from something. No?
> 
> Moreover, why would anyone scrap guided missiles for unguided ballistic projectiles?



We have already the tech to guide the cannon projectile by laser, if the rest is functional.


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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> Key problem would be guidance electronics/systems that survive the ~350g acceleration loads.
> Unguided and it may be of no useful tactical value.
> 
> It clearly show that the U.S is aware that "enemy A2/AD" menace cant be well handled by its conventional airpower concept.
> The plan would be to use a battery of these and send a unguided barrage, once satellite early warning detects a missile launch, hoping to kill the TEL in time.



How would the prices for such long-ranged shells compare against traditional Iranian precision guided ballistic-missiles?

So would these be used to help identify TEL launch locations by firing a volley, then satellites pick up on the TELs heat-signature respectively leading to the shells (which are still in flight) being up-dated with information on the TELs current position then just heading there?


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## Shawnee



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## QWECXZ

Shawnee said:


> We have already the tech to guide the cannon projectile by laser, if the rest is functional.


And how do you want to illuminate the target by laser? You'll have to have ground forces or your air force near the target. What about poor weather conditions?

And there's still the cost issue.

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## Philosopher

QWECXZ said:


> I think you can't consider only the cost of shells. Loading the canon itself for a new launch will be expensive too. After all, an explosion that fires the projectile must have its energy come from something. No?



In the long term, all of those costs overall would be less than actual missiles. The major ongoing cost will be the shells themselves plus their propellant. I don't see a real comparison here compared to cost of missiles. Not to say they will _replace_ missiles, but may reduce the need for certain lower tear systems or reduce their quantitative needs.




> Moreover, why would anyone scrap guided missiles for unguided ballistic projectiles?



These technologies will continue to mature. I have not been able to find much with regards to the accuracy of the US system, but its safe to say, going forward they will become more accurate. Furthermore, don't focus on this specific US example but the concept of long rang cannons as a whole. The Iraqis tried and failed with that Babylon project. If the issue of accuracy can be solved, then I see this as a highly instrumental addition to Iran.


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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> And how do you want to illuminate the target by laser? You'll have to have ground forces or your air force near the target. What about poor weather conditions?
> 
> And there's still the cost issue.



Small cheap radar evading drones. Iran has Been doing it in Syria since 2014.


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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> And how do you want to illuminate the target by laser? You'll have to have ground forces or your air force near the target. What about poor weather conditions?
> 
> And there's still the cost issue.



Such a weapons platform would be quite expensive considering Iran would essentially need to create equipment that is proprietary to the system as a whole. I can't imagine precision guided 1,000 mile ranged shells would be cheap.

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## QWECXZ

Philosopher said:


> In the long term, all of those costs overall would be less than actual missiles. The major ongoing cost will be the shells themselves plus their propellant. I don't see a real comparison here compared to cost of missiles. Not to say they will _replace_ missiles, but may reduce the need for certain lower tear systems or reduce their quantitative needs.


Why do you think so? I think the explosive that is needed for shooting the projectile far must have a lot of energy in it and energy is always expensive. Then there's the issue of its physical characteristics versus a missile. I mean things like speed, impact on the target, etc.



> These technologies will continue to mature. I have not been able to find much with regards to the accuracy of the US system, but its safe to say, going forward they will become more accurate. Furthermore, don't focus on this specific US example but the concept of long rang cannons as a whole. The Iraqis tried and failed with that Babylon project. If the issue of accuracy can be solved, then I see this as a highly instrumental addition to Iran.


I think the main issue here is to study the feasibility of this economic wise.



Shawnee said:


> Small cheap radar evading drones


There is no such thing as "radar evading". But even so, why wouldn't we equip those drones with small rockets instead? That sounds less expensive to me. I'm not sure though.


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## Philosopher

Shawnee said:


> Small cheap radar evading drones. Iran has Been doing it in Syria since 2014.



That would complicate things and open the door for outside inferences with the functionality of system. The truly valuable guidance will come into the terms of internal guidance systems. I don't include GPS as much because as far as I am Concerned, during a major conflict, relying on GPS is not wise.


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## Mithridates

BlueInGreen2 said:


> I'm down for Iran building super-long range cannons if they could do it cost effectively.
> 
> But is such a weapons platform a must, given all the advancements Iran has made with missile-tech?


it's cost effective indeed.


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## Shawnee

If you believe this attack in Abqaiq was done from Yemen, it will be 1000 miles away and this level of accuracy is likely Laser guided, maybe Laser guidance from a drone.


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## QWECXZ

Philosopher said:


> That would complicate things and open the door for outside inferences with the functionality of system. The truly valuable guidance will come into the terms of internal guidance systems. I don't include GPS as much because as far as I am Concerned, during a major conflict, relying on GPS is not wise.


Well, there are other options like GLONASS and BeiDou. 
If we can build a canon like this in a cost effective way, we might even be able to launch satellites into the LEO more often. If we launch like 20 satellites into the LEO orbit, soon we will have a satellite positioning system of our own.


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## Blue In Green

Philosopher said:


> That would complicate things and open the door for outside inferences with the functionality of system. The truly valuable guidance will come into the terms of internal guidance systems. I don't include GPS as much because as far as I am Concerned, during a major conflict, relying on GPS is not wise.



You think this is a case where the initial buy in cost is somewhat high and any other costs after are retrospectively cheaper?


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## Philosopher

QWECXZ said:


> Why do you think so? I think the explosive that is needed for shooting the projectile far must have a lot of energy in it and energy is always expensive. Then there's the issue of its physical characteristics versus a missile. I mean things like speed, impact on the target, etc.
> I think the main issue here is to study the feasibility of this economic wise.



I can't give a figure with regards to the cost of the propellant, that information has not been made openly available (as far as I can see). But I cannot imagine it would be anywhere near enough to push the long term cost of these systems to the level of missiles. I am considering these long range cannon as a low tier system for Iran so it can economically do the jobs that we would normally perhaps use the more expensive missile alternative. But obviously all this is hypothetical.

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## Mithridates

who needs accuracy?? it's not a replacement for ballistic missiles but older artillery pieces. even with a CEP of 2 km... it worth it.

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## Philosopher

QWECXZ said:


> Well, there are other options like GLONASS and BeiDou.
> If we can build a canon like this in a cost effective way, we might even be able to launch satellites into the LEO more often. If we launch like 20 satellites into the LEO orbit, soon we will have a satellite positioning system of our own.



Agreed, but generally I am very reluctant with the idea of relying on satellite navigation during war. It's still something I'd like to see employed, but as far as relying on it? No.



BlueInGreen2 said:


> You think this is a case where the initial buy in cost is somewhat high and any other costs after are retrospectively menial?



100%. Once you purchased the actual cannons, then I don't see the ongoing cost of the shells+propellant being uneconomical. And of course as you mass produce, cost goes even lower. This is not even considering the relative ease at which Iran could mass produce 1000's of these. Guidance system will be the major headache, but even that can be done eventually.

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## Blue In Green

Philosopher said:


> Agreed, but generally I am very reluctant with the idea of relying on satellite navigation during war. It's still something I'd like to see employed, but as far as relying on it? No.
> 
> 
> 
> 100%. Once you purchased the actual cannons, then I don't see the ongoing cost of the shells+propellant being uneconomical. And of course as you mass produce, cost goes even lower. This is not even considering the relative ease at which Iran could mass produce 1000's of these. Guidance system will be the major headache, but even that can be done eventually.



I'm down with that, sounds like a really good idea honestly.


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## QWECXZ

Philosopher said:


> I can't give a figure with regards to the cost of the propellant, that information has not been made openly available (as far as I can see). But I cannot imagine it would be anywhere near enough to push the long term cost of these systems to the level of missiles. I am considering these long range cannon as a low tier system for Iran so it can economically do the jobs that we would normally perhaps use the more expensive missile alternative. But obviously all this is hypothetical.


A more rational option is that the projectile should have two phases: it is first launched by a cannon, it travels a significant distance and then in its final phase its small thruster activates. 

Something like the US Excalibur. But boosted by a small cost-effective thruster to increase its range.

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## Philosopher

Mithridates said:


> who needs accuracy?? it's not a replacement for ballistic missiles but older artillery pieces. even with a CEP of 2 km... it worth it.



If you can create a system like this with a low CEP, this will give you a serious military weapon. Projectiles with very high CEPs are more of a psychological ("terror)" weapon than a true military one. The moment you can pinpoint strike 100's/1000's of KM away with even such shells, this is a capability that will give sleepless nights to our adversaries.



QWECXZ said:


> A more rational option is that the projectile should have two phases: it is first launched by a cannon, it travels a significant distance and then in its final phase its small thruster activates. If it's supposed to be guided, it has to have a thruster, otherwise how can it change its course?



I think this is the sort of ingenuity we can expect from IRGC. 

Ramjet shells are being developed by the USA too:

*"Nammo claims its ramjet howitzer shell will reach a distance of 60 miles, compared to 15 miles for standard howitzer shells."*


https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a29490080/ramjet-engine-missiles/

Edit: It is 60 miles not 400km.

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## QWECXZ

Philosopher said:


> If you can create a system like this with a low CEP, this will give you a serious military weapon. Projectiles with very high CEPs are more of a psychological ("terror)" weapon than a true military one. The moment you can pinpoint strike 100's/1000's of KM away with even such shells, this is a capability that will give sleepless nights to our adversaries.
> 
> I think this is the sort of ingenuity we can expect from IRGC. Ramjet shells are being developed by the USA too with ranges being talked about of around 400km:
> 
> *"Existing rocket motor-powered ESSMs have a range of 50 kilometers (31 miles). With a ramjet engine, the company believes an upgraded ESSM would have a range of over 400 kilometers (248 miles)."*
> 
> 
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a29490080/ramjet-engine-missiles/


Yeah. I'm down for it. Even if our cannon takes care of only half of the path, it can be cost-effective and very reasonable to build.


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## Philosopher

QWECXZ said:


> Yeah. I'm down for it. Even if our cannon takes care of only half of the path, it can be cost-effective and very reasonable to build.



Many new technologies are on their way in the missile/rocket/artillery world. Not only are they potent, but seemingly economical too. I am hoping the IRGC is keeping a very close eye on these novel developments and will not fall too behind or behind at all.


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## PeeD

BlueInGreen2 said:


> How would the prices for such long-ranged shells compare against traditional Iranian precision guided ballistic-missiles?



Of course it would be magnitudes cheaper if no novel 350g rated guidance system is used.
Irans missile force is designed to be cost effective but it is still a high priority target system. Foremost used to suppress operation of enemy airpower, you cant use BMs cost effectively at lower tactical levels. The idea is: once enemy airpower is suppressed even vulnerable drones and CMs can kill the tactical targets freely.



BlueInGreen2 said:


> So would these be used to help identify TEL launch locations by firing a volley, then satellites pick up on the TELs heat-signature respectively leading to the shells (which are still in flight) being up-dated with information on the TELs current position then just heading there?



I'm not aware of guidance systems that survive 350 g.
Basically of U.S early warning sats pick up heat signature of a missile launch, they immediately tell the battery which shoots a salvo to that location hoping to kill the TEL fast enough.

In total the argument in Irans case to stay with missiles is the accuracy: To suppress airbase operations you need to hit runways etc. , Irans BMs do that. A cannon may need many shells to achieve that.
Sure it creates terror at the base and can ultimately annihilate it if enough time and shells are spend but missiles hit all critical parts of the airbase immediately and open the gates for cost effective lower-end target weapons such as drones.
Should a guided round be possible, things would change in favor for the cannon.
Should cluster warheads be used, things may also change in favor for the cannon.
That would be the brute force approach.

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## Mithridates

actually you can't put any guidance in the projectile other than possibly a simple radar. project HARP projectile was able to reach it's top speed of 2000 m/s after travelling 37 meter of it's barrel length. calculate the acceleration. after that divide the number to 10 so you can compare it with ordinary gravity... 
do not do it it's almost 100000 m/s^2=10000 g lol it means your small 2 grams guidance IC will weight 20 kg. it will not survive.

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> Of course it would be magnitudes cheaper if no novel 350g rated guidance system is used.
> Irans missile force is designed to be cost effective but it is still a high priority target system. Foremost used to suppress operation of enemy airpower, you cant use BMs cost effectively at lower tactical levels. The idea is: once enemy airpower is suppressed even vulnerable drones and CMs can kill the tactical targets freely.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of guidance systems that survive 350 g.
> Basically of U.S early warning sats pick up heat signature of a missile launch, they immediately tell the battery which shoots a salvo to that location hoping to kill the TEL fast enough.
> 
> In total the argument in Irans case to stay with missiles is the accuracy: To suppress airbase operations you need to hit runways etc. , Irans BMs do that. A cannon may need many shells to achieve that.
> Sure it creates terror at the base and can ultimately annihilate it if enough time and shells are spend but missiles hit all critical parts of the airbase immediately and open the gates for cost effective lower-end target weapons such as drones.
> Should a guided round be possible, things would change in favor for the cannon.
> Should cluster warheads be used, things may also change in favor for the cannon.
> That would be the brute force approach.



Given that then, Iran wouldn't really need to create a super-precise guided shell. Just a long-ranged cannon (built in significant numbers) that can fire munitions with a CEP small enough to create widespread damage via large cluster warheads or huge volleys of cannon fire.

It sounds worth it to be honest, another weapons system that would be able to deliver heavy amounts of firepower at extremely long-ranges (for an artillery cannon) and be used against lower level tactical threats that are larger in size (Barracks, airbases, fuel-depots, sea-ports).

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## QWECXZ

Something like Krasnopol with an extended range of 300 kilometers can be of high tactical value against any neighboring country or US asset in the region.

So, we basically have to increase the range 10 times. lol


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## PeeD

Other than there is no proof such a compact system is feasible, I guess Irans reasoning would be "shell cant be guided due to high g loads, so forget about it for now"

It sounds attractive as a brute force terror weapon, yes. But maybe capturing an airbase is a more attractive objective than annihilating it WWI style.

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## TheImmortal

Cannons are stupid WW2 technology.

The Nazi’s built massive cannon inside the ground and the Allies managed to still locate it without satellites and destroy it in the era of fly over inaccurate dummy bombs.

So massive long range distance cannons are stupid. Didn’t work in 1945 wouldn’t work in 2020.

What Iran needs is cheap supersonic high altitude skipping drones that can drop stand off payloads.

If a cost effective engine can be built (either disposable one time use engines or multi use), the drones would overwhelm any air defense system as they would launch and stay in upper atmosphere much like Blackbird and modern HGV safely out of range of most ABMs.

It would then “dip down” to release its stand off payload and then dip up into the upper atmosphere to escape ABMs. The payload would strike the target at a very high rate speed making it difficult to intercept.

Now take that drone and release it in a swarm of 3 or 6 drones. Even if they can only release one 750lb internal bay payload....6 drones would do the work of up to 5 BMs. Imagine the cost savings and survivability factor.

That is how you make a future Iranian bomber force.


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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Cannons are stupid WW2 technology.
> 
> The Nazi’s built massive cannon inside the ground and the Allies managed to still locate it without satellites and destroy it in the era of fly over inaccurate dummy bombs.
> 
> So massive long range distance cannons are stupid. Didn’t work in 1945 wouldn’t work in 2020.
> 
> What Iran needs is cheap supersonic high altitude skipping drones that can drop stand off payloads.
> 
> If a cost effective engine can be built (either disposable one time use engines or multi use), the drones would overwhelm any air defense system as they would launch and stay in upper atmosphere much like Blackbird and modern HGV safely out of range of most ABMs.
> 
> It would then “dip down” to release its stand off payload and then dip up into the upper atmosphere to escape ABMs. The payload would strike the target at a very high rate speed making it difficult to intercept.
> 
> Now take that drone and release it in a swarm of 3 or 6 drones. Even if they can only release one 750lb internal bay payload....6 drones would do the work of up to 5 BMs. Imagine the cost savings and survivability factor.
> 
> That is how you make a future Iranian bomber force.



Hell, why not both man lol.


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## TheImmortal

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Hell, why not both man lol.



Because it doesn’t work. Why would you want to build something that countries already attempted and failed 80 years ago Saddam also did this route.

US also attempted a high tech version of this and decided against it. Best route would be to build supersonic shells for existing Navy cannons like US is doing. But Iran lacks a modern Navy for such a cannon anyway. Anything on land is a sitting duck to swarm attacks. Not viable.

_The U.S. Navy’s $500 million electromagnetic railgun—capable of slinging projectiles at hypersonic speeds—lacks funding and has no coherent plan to deploy on warships. The Navy is instead pursuing an offshoot of the railgun, a hypervelocity projectile it can fire from existing gun systems

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po.../navy-ships/amp32291935/navy-railgun-failure/

_
My route is the best, supersonic glide bomber drones are very hard to intercept and can reach any point in the Middle East within the hour. Be preprogrammed. And drop heavy payloads.

It would be the most important and game changing Iranian weapon design in the history of the republic. But would effectively remove the need for an Air Force outside of Interceptors for defending the country airspace.
_
_

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## Blue In Green

TheImmortal said:


> Because it doesn’t work. Why would you want to build something that countries already attempted and failed 80 years ago Saddam also did this route.
> 
> US also attempted a high tech version of this and decided against it. Best route would be to build supersonic shells for existing Navy cannons like US is doing. But Iran lacks a modern Navy for such a cannon anyway. Anything on land is a sitting duck to swarm attacks. Not viable.
> 
> _The U.S. Navy’s $500 million electromagnetic railgun—capable of slinging projectiles at hypersonic speeds—lacks funding and has no coherent plan to deploy on warships. The Navy is instead pursuing an offshoot of the railgun, a hypervelocity projectile it can fire from existing gun systems
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po.../navy-ships/amp32291935/navy-railgun-failure/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



It'd be a nice thing to have but you do bring up a really good point. As a feasible (or in this case not feasible) modern military weapon, it is an antiquated idea that performed middling to poorly in the past. I'd imagine the size of said cannon would be smaller then what the Germans had given all the advancements in metallurgy, construction and propellent that would be used in an up-to-date version.

We really shouldn't dwell on it all that much though, Iran doesn't seem to have any plans on building such a cannon as their focus still is missiles but the idea is admittedly alluring since it kind of has that "bad-***" factor to it, you know, big cannons and all that lol. Superficial aesthetics of "strong" military power are often shown off with cannons, so the concept of developing a huge-super longed range one does have its merits if applied correctly.

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## Hack-Hook

PeeD said:


> Key problem would be guidance electronics/systems that survive the ~350g acceleration loads.
> Unguided and it may be of no useful tactical value.
> 
> It clearly show that the U.S is aware that "enemy A2/AD" menace cant be well handled by its conventional airpower concept.
> The plan would be to use a battery of these and send a unguided barrage, once satellite early warning detects a missile launch, hoping to kill the TEL in time.


he canon would be enormous , very hard to target and need a lot of power .
useless for what you stated



QWECXZ said:


> I think you can't consider only the cost of shells. Loading the canon itself for a new launch will be expensive too. After all, an explosion that fires the projectile must have its energy come from something. No?
> 
> Moreover, why would anyone scrap guided missiles for unguided ballistic projectiles?


the plan is to use mgnetic fie if I recall correctly


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## QWECXZ

Hack-Hook said:


> the plan is to use mgnetic fie if I recall correctly



Yup. But it's still expensive. You will need a strong magnetic field which will consume a lot of electricity (i.e. energy).


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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> If you believe this attack in Abqaiq was done from Yemen, it will be 1000 miles away and this level of accuracy is likely Laser guided, maybe Laser guidance from a drone.


it can also be achieved with a cheap primitive AI and a camera.


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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> it can also be achieved with a cheap primitive AI and a camera.



I think you mean image processing/pattern recognition. The drone actually uses image processing methods and focuses its laser source on the target.

Now you may say why not use image processing directly on the cruise missile or projectile?

The answer is the time which is the bottleneck for the projectile but not for a reconnaissance drone.

There are many cruise missiles with optical and image processing guidance as an extra navigation help though but this level of pinpoint accuracy is beyond just pattern recognition.

Object recognition based on image processing has three main types:

1. Feature extraction and feature tracking 

2. Optimization/optical flow/etc

3. Correlation/MAD

The most commonly used technique is type 1 because it is very fast but it will have significant erroneous feature extraction. It should not be used alone.


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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> I think you mean image processing/pattern recognition. The drone actually uses image processing methods and focuses its laser source on the target.
> 
> Now you may say why not use image processing directly on the cruise missile or projectile?
> 
> The answer is the time which is the bottleneck for the projectile but not for a reconnaissance drone.
> 
> There are many cruise missiles with optical and image processing guidance as an extra navigation help though but this level of pinpoint accuracy is beyond just pattern recognition.


the time my be a constraint when you use normal chips , but a specialized chip do it tens of times faster and is smaller and actully cheaper than a multiporpuse chip you find in your phones. it only supposed to process the images . even a single middle range GPU chip can do the processing alot faster than a high end CPU. it all come to use the correct tools. right now image processing in cruise missile are advanced enough to do the needed processing for finding their path acording to key point in their course in real time so finding the target and hitting the domeis not a problem for them


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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> the time my be a constraint when you use normal chips , but a specialized chip do it tens of times faster and is smaller and actully cheaper than a multiporpuse chip you find in your phones. it only supposed to process the images . even a single middle range GPU chip can do the processing alot faster than a high end CPU. it all come to use the correct tools. right now image processing in cruise missile are advanced enough to do the needed processing for finding their path acording to key point in their course in real time so finding the target and hitting the domeis not a problem for them



I liked that you brought up the idea of GPU acceleration.  It used to be the favorite of many in Iran back in the day.

Let’s go back to computer structure 101. معماری کامپیوتر
Do we have to include a GPU in the board of a cruise missile? We do not have visualization there?

Chips will not help. What type of chip? FPGA? Microcontroller? EROM?
What type of chip does Iran produce, other than these?
I think there is a semi supercomputer in most Iranian cruise missiles with image processing softwares rather than a chip.

Despite all the techniques to speed up an optimization algorithm like GPU acceleration, multi grid, etc, it is difficult to do it accurately and in time.

There are many fast techniques but with failures in feature tracking.


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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> I liked that you brought up the idea of GPU acceleration.  It used to be the favorite of many in Iran back in the day.
> 
> Let’s go back to computer structure 101. معماری کامپیوتر
> Do we have to include a GPU in the board of a cruise missile? We do not have visualization there?
> 
> Chips will not help. What type of chip? FPGA? Microcontroller? EROM?
> What type of chip does Iran produce, other than these?
> I think there is a semi supercomputer in most Iranian cruise missiles with image processing softwares rather than a chip.
> 
> Despite all the techniques to speed up an optimization algorithm like GPU acceleration, multi grid, etc, it is difficult to do it accurately and in time.
> 
> There are many fast techniques but with failures in feature tracking.


I stated the GPU to say it can be done with the proper tools and a CPU or bunch of them is not optimal tool . there are some socs and FPGA that do the job faster than several xeon processor working together . you do the initial work with FPGA then hand the data to processor and that do the rest of the work for you.
if the technology is fast and available so we can put a optic seeker on the head of balistic missiles . then why you think we can't do it for 5-20 time slower suicide drones and cruise missiles ?


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## QWECXZ

As a matter of fact, using pattern recognition and image processing methods will be incredibly sophisticated as most known algorithms for these problems are computationally heavy and real time processing, specially for a projectile that travels extremely fast, will be a huge challenge; even if you use a low level language like C with an application specific IC like a TPU.


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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> I stated the GPU to say it can be done with the proper tools and a CPU or bunch of them is not optimal tool . there are some socs and FPGA that do the job faster than several xeon processor working together . you do the initial work with FPGA then hand the data to processor and that do the rest of the work for you.
> if the technology is fast and available so we can put a optic seeker on the head of balistic missiles . then why you think we can't do it for 5-20 time slower suicide drones and cruise missiles ?



FPGA has no value for this type of work. It is a basic circuit for Lower level jobs like AI of washing machines. An image is too much for FPGA, even if you only want to denoise it.

The technology is not there yet to do a fast and *accurate* feature extraction job.
It should process 24-40 frames per second. It is a big thing to accurately do feature extraction. Accuracy rate are like 89-90% based on recent articles.

*Why do you think we use laser guidance for ATGM? If we can do image processing, why take the risk and emit laser on the tank?*

The guy who projects the Laser over the target on the ground is risking his life. The moment image processing is good enough, Laser guidance will fade away.

Once again, most cruise missiles have optical guidance as an extra tool. They do image processing as an extra tool along with inertia and GPS.

The best navigation is multimodal navigation. Use image processing, inertia, GPS and then you can exclude the outlier.


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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> FPGA has no value for this type of work. It is a basic circuit for Lower level jobs like AI of washing machines.


FPGA do the image processing , it dont decide what's images are about , those will be sent to a processor and that do it.
an FPGAcan do the job of around 12 processor on that matter.
by the way as I said how you explain this video from 2012




It show the optical seeker lock into target at Mach 3

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## QWECXZ

Hack-Hook said:


> FPGA do the image processing , it dont decide what's images are about , those will be sent to a processor and that do it.
> an FPGAcan do the job of around 12 processor on that matter.
> by the way as I said how you explain this video from 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It show the optical seeker lock into target at Mach 3


The Persian Gulf missile isn't really a good example here. There aren't many potential targets on sea to choose from. The Abqaiq attack is a whole different story. Targeting the military infrastructures of a country near a civilian area will be a whole other story. Also, there is little known about the capabilities of the Persian Gulf missile in bad weather conditions or at night.


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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> FPGA do the image processing , it dont decide what's images are about , those will be sent to a processor and that do it.
> an FPGAcan do the job of around 12 processor on that matter.
> by the way as I said how you explain this video from 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It show the optical seeker lock into target at Mach 3



I agree that FPGA has been used for images but for lower level jobs. What do you gain from an FPGA preprocessing in a missile? Time? Accuracy? Do it all within your algorithm.

I watched the video. The fact that the ROI is focused on the ship does not mean guidance is purely image based. The ROI could be overlaid after the acquisition. The way the ROI resizes from 0:15 to 0:16 is like it is overlaid afterward. I don’t think the ROI is computer generated.

I am positive most Iranian missiles are multimodal guidance (Image processing, inertia, GPS) and they combine the data in some way.

Once again if image processing is good enough, let’s have camera-based ATGM and save the life of the Laser guy on the ground.


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## Hack-Hook

QWECXZ said:


> The Persian Gulf missile isn't really a good example here. There aren't many potential targets on sea to choose from. The Abqaiq attack is a whole different story. Targeting the military infrastructures of a country near a civilian area will be a whole other story. Also, there is little known about the capabilities of the Persian Gulf missile in bad weather conditions or at night.


you see persian gulf missile have only seconds to decide what to do a suicide drone or cruise missile compared to it have all the time in the world. we have land based balistic missile to do that for example we have Fatih-e-Mobin


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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> you see persian gulf missile have only seconds to decide what to do a suicide drone or cruise missile compared to it have all the time in the world. we have land based balistic missile to do that for example we have Fatih-e-Mobin



This example is different compared to the previous video. Here the ROI looks real and not overlaid afterward.

Yet again, I believe the missile is multimodal. IR image processing was successful in this example. Accuracy is like 80-90% depending on the task.


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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> I agree that FPGA has been used for images but for lower level jobs. What do you gain from an FPGA preprocessing in a missile? Time? Accuracy? Do it all within your algorithm.
> 
> I watched the video. The fact that the ROI is focused on the ship does not mean guidance is purely image based. The ROI could be overlaid after the acquisition. The way the ROI resizes from 0:15 to 0:16 is like it is overlaid afterward. I don’t think the ROI is computer generated.
> 
> I am positive most Iranian missiles are multimodal guidance (Image processing, inertia, GPS) and they combine the data in some way.
> 
> Once again if image processing is good enough, let’s have camera-based ATGM and save the life of the Laser guy on the ground.


well Khalij-e-Fars is only EO/IR controlled , Hormoz-2 is Radio anti Radiation and I believe Fatih-e-Mobin can use multiple systems

by the way does not Spike or Type 01 LMAT already can do that


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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> well Khalij-e-Fars is only EO/IR controlled , Hormoz-2 is Radio anti Radiation and I believe Fatih-e-Mobin can use multiple systems
> 
> by the way does not Spike or Type 01 LMAT already can do that



If you accept the accuracy of image based guidance, then you can make ATGM too and you can save the life of the guy who emits the Laser.

For Khalij Fars: 
Why do you say *only* IR homing?

Antiradiation is a different ball game with different tracking.


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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> These technologies will continue to mature. I have not been able to find much with regards to the accuracy of the US system, but its safe to say, going forward they will become more accurate. Furthermore, don't focus on this specific US example but the concept of long rang cannons as a whole. The Iraqis tried and failed with that Babylon project. If the issue of accuracy can be solved, then I see this as a highly instrumental addition to Iran.


Guided artillery shells are matured, they can be relied on to hit their targets accurately these days. If they missed, they usually off by 6 feet. They tested where it hit 27 out of 30 targets directly.







Mithridates said:


> who needs accuracy?? it's not a replacement for ballistic missiles but older artillery pieces. even with a CEP of 2 km... it worth it.


When you are shooting artillery pieces, especially 1000 miles away, its going to be off by tens of miles. Obviously it needs to have accuracy to be useful.


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## Sineva

BlueInGreen2 said:


> It'd be a nice thing to have but you do bring up a really good point. As a feasible (or in this case not feasible) modern military weapon, it is an antiquated idea that performed middling to poorly in the past. I'd imagine the size of said cannon would be smaller then what the Germans had given all the advancements in metallurgy, construction and propellent that would be used in an up-to-date version.
> 
> We really shouldn't dwell on it all that much though, Iran doesn't seem to have any plans on building such a cannon as their focus still is missiles but the idea is admittedly alluring since it kind of has that "bad-***" factor to it, you know, big cannons and all that lol. Superficial aesthetics of "strong" military power are often shown off with cannons, so the concept of developing a huge-super longed range one does have its merits if applied correctly.


I know what you mean about the attraction/technological aesthetics of cutting edge ideas related to artillery,one of the most recent being the Metalstorm system,not to mention older concepts like the german ww2 era v3/high pressure pump system with its multi barrels and multiple auxiliary combustion chambers that was intended to reach all the way to london.Plus you also have the very avant-garde derivatives like the sonic cannon and vortex gun.
It would probably make more sense under the circumstances to modernise irans rather aged artillery park as most of that is either from the pahlavi era or the iran-iraq war era and is really starting to show its age.
Another more practical option would be producing a 76mm variant of the iranian basir laser guided shell for the navies 76mm fajr-27 turret guns,as now that the navy has finally gotten serious about drones it would be no problem to have a naval drone designate the target,another advantage is the potential range increases that precision guidance can give you in addition to the accuracy.

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## Blue In Green

Sineva said:


> I know what you mean about the attraction/technological aesthetics of cutting edge ideas related to artillery,one of the most recent being the Metalstorm system,not to mention older concepts like the german ww2 era v3/high pressure pump system with its multi barrels and multiple auxiliary combustion chambers that was intended to reach all the way to london.Plus you also have the very avant-garde derivatives like the sonic cannon and vortex gun.
> It would probably make more sense under the circumstances to modernise irans rather aged artillery park as most of that is either from the pahlavi era or the iran-iraq war era and is really starting to show its age.
> Another more practical option would be producing a 76mm variant of the iranian basir laser guided shell for the navies 76mm fajr-27 turret guns,as now that the navy has finally gotten serious about drones it would be no problem to have a naval drone designate the target,another advantage is the potential range increases that precision guidance can give you in addition to the accuracy.



Agreed, if Iran can find the budget to maintain and reasonably upgrade its artillery batteries/units then I'm all game. 

I think we will see some sparse projects here and there related to traditional cannon based artillery but for now Iran will just keep on churning-out bigger, better, faster and deadlier missile systems for the time-being. Hopefully we will get to see new cruise-missiles unveiled soon, it'd be nice to get a glimpse at the future of Iranian cruise-missile technology and where it stands now. 

Fingers crossed that the rumored supersonic AshCM is real and will be shown off soon!!

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## Sineva

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Agreed, if Iran can find the budget to maintain and reasonably upgrade its artillery batteries/units then I'm all game.
> 
> I think we will see some sparse projects here and there related to traditional cannon based artillery but for now Iran will just keep on churning-out bigger, better, faster and deadlier missile systems for the time-being. Hopefully we will get to see new cruise-missiles unveiled soon, it'd be nice to get a glimpse at the future of Iranian cruise-missile technology and where it stands now.
> 
> Fingers crossed that the rumored supersonic AshCM is real and will be shown off soon!!


I totally agree.
As for the AshCM,I`d love to see something like this
The HY-3





Or something more advanced like the p-800 onyx




Supersonic cruise missiles are still the one weapon that iran is clearly lacking in despite the clear need and also having the indigenous capability to produce one.


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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> If you accept the accuracy of image based guidance, then you can make ATGM too and you can save the life of the guy who emits the Laser.
> 
> For Khalij Fars:
> Why do you say *only* IR homing?
> 
> Antiradiation is a different ball game with different tracking.


Khalij-e-Fars use a caera but that camera as you see in the video work on infrared spectrum


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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> Khalij-e-Fars use a caera but that camera as you see in the video work on infrared spectrum



Regarding ATGM:
As you know we have three types:

1. Manual guidance like a joy stick

2. Line-Of-Sight Laser Beam Riding (LOSBR) or Laser beam guidance, like Kornet

3. Image based guidance or fire-and-forget like Spike

So far, type II has the best accuracy.
..........................
With regard to Persian gulf missile:
I think it is multimodal and not just IR homing.
What could the missile do in case the ship makes IR artifacts, ruining the image?
For optical homing you can make a cloud of smoke above the ship.

You cannot be accurate if you do not resolve the counter measures of the ship.

The best is multimodal approach to the target. It is not rocket science and a few good hard working master students can do it.

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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> Guided artillery shells are matured, they can be relied on to hit their targets accurately these days. If they missed, they usually off by 6 feet. They tested where it hit 27 out of 30 targets directly.



Yes, but these are mostly GPS/satellite guided systems. Satellite guidance is not something you can rely on in a major conflict in my opinion. We're discussing internal navigation system that could withstand the extreme g forces.

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## 925boy

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Agreed, if Iran can find the budget to maintain and reasonably upgrade its artillery batteries/units then I'm all game.


umm...this is interesting, cuz to me, i've always assumed Iran can put on a good artillery show, if required to. Is Iran's artillery the newest technology? i'm unsure, but is Iran's artillery "effective" or and "standard"relative to regional forces' artillery, then i would say probably. Iran isnt good at having pretty systems, Iran is good at having effective systems.

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## Mithridates

Oldman1 said:


> When you are shooting artillery pieces, especially 1000 miles away, its going to be off by tens of miles. Obviously it needs to have accuracy to be useful.


i did kinda hope it does not lol.


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## TheImmortal

Oldman1 said:


> When you are shooting artillery pieces, especially 1000 miles away, its going to be off by tens of miles. Obviously it needs to have accuracy to be useful.



it’s impossible to fire any shell “1000s of miles”. I mean this is basic physics.

Even Navy’s magical railgun was only 100-200 mile range.


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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> it’s impossible to fire any shell “1000s of miles”. I mean this is basic physics.
> 
> Even Navy’s magical railgun was only 100-200 mile range.


US will... possibly in next year.


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## TheImmortal

Mithridates said:


> US will... possibly in next year.



source?


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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> source?





F-22Raptor said:


> WASHINGTON: As the Army urgently rebuilds its long-neglected artillery branch, it’s test-firing some impressive hardware in the southwestern desert and over the Pacific. But all those technologies, the Army’s artillery modernization director told me, are in service to a single purpose:
> 
> After decades of depending on air support, the Army needs its own long-range precision firepower to blow holes in high-tech defenses so US aircraft, warships, and ground troops can pour through.
> 
> No one wonder weapon can solve this problem on its own, Brig. Gen. John Rafferty told me in an interview ahead of this week’s successful Precision Strike Missile test. Instead, it requires a complete toolkit of complementary weapons with overlapping ranges, each optimized for a different set of targets at a different level of the future fight.
> 
> *The Portfolio’s Progress*
> 
> “Our analysis has been focused on how we’ll fight with these things,” Rafferty told me,” how they complement one another to take down the A2/AD [Anti-Access/Area Denial] complex to open those windows of opportunity for the joint force.”
> 
> “At the *tactical* level, that’s ERCA,” he said. *Extended Range Cannon Artillery* is an upgraded Paladin armored howitzer with an extra-long barrel, supercharged propellant and advanced ammunition that hit targets over 40 miles away in a recent test. Originally, the Army had focused on the new rocket-boosted XM1113 shell, but the March test proved it was possible to tweak the existing precision-guided Excalibur to reach similar ranges, Rafferty told me. He doesn’t see the two rounds as redundant, however. Excalibur will offer precision, the XM1113 wide-area suppression.
> 
> “For *theater* opening, that’s PrSM, knocking down some of the sophisticated air defense or maritime targets,” Rafferty said. The *Precision Strike Missile *has proven its ability to hit targets as close as 53 miles in last week’s test. (Short-range shots are actually harder because the sudden deceleration stresses the missile). The prototype should max out in long-range-shots next year at over 300, but a future upgrade could fly over 400. PrSM is sleeker, longer-ranged, and smaller than the Reagan-era ATACMS it replaces, yet hits with the same force thanks to more advanced explosives.
> 
> “At the *strategic* level, that’s strategic fires opening the door for the joint force,” he said:
> 
> The high-cost, high-performance option here is the *Long-Range Hypersonic Weapon*, a rocket-powered boost-glide missile that was test-fired in March for the first time in three years. The expected range is classified but could easily be thousands of miles.
> 
> Hypersonics are so cutting-edge – and correspondingly expensive – that they’re being developed by a special Army organization, Lt. Gen. Neil Thurgood’s Rapid Capability & Critical Technologies Office, as part of a joint effort with the Navy. Rafferty’s Long-Range Precision Fires Cross Functional Team will take over the program as it moves from prototype to production, and it’s already working out training and tactics.
> 
> The hypersonic missile set to enter service in 2023, Rafferty said, will probably be an “exquisite” weapon that must be reserved for the hardest and most critical targets. So, to barrage larger numbers of softer targets, Rafferty’s team is developing the *Strategic Long-Range Cannon, *a supergun using gunpowder to launch guided projectiles over one thousand miles. While a full-up SLRC prototype won’t be test-fired until 2023, two “test assets” are already launching simulated projectiles called slugs.
> 
> “There are skeptics,” Rafferty admits. “But every time we get a chance to engage the skeptics with our technical experts, they generally walk away thinking, ‘that could work.’ And if it does, then it’s a capability we ought to have in the Army.”
> 
> In this big picture, even a thousand-mile supergun is just one more useful tool in the toolkit, and no one tool is irreplaceable. Rafferty’s boss, Army Futures Command chief Gen. John Murray, has even said: “If the Strategic Long-Range Cannon does not deliver, we have hypersonics.”
> 
> But how do all these different weapons add up to more than the sum of their parts?
> 
> *Many Weapons, One Mission*
> 
> “How it’s all linked together: It starts with the operational concept,” Rafferty said. “When you look at Multi-Domain Operations” – the Army’s concept for future conflict – “and then what I think will emerge as a joint operational concept by the end of the year” – what the Pentagon’s calling Joint All-Domain Operations – “the fundamental problem is layered enemy standoff.”
> 
> Great power competitors like China and Russia, and even regional threats like North Korea and Iran, are painfully aware of how American airpower reigned unchecked over Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Serbia. So they’ve invested heavily in the kind of long-range, precision-guided weapons that were once an American monopoly. The resulting Anti-Access/Area Denial defenses combine surface-to-air missiles to keep out US aircraft; surface-to-surface weapons to hit airbases, aircraft carriers, and ground forces; radars, drones, and satellites to detect and target the Americans at a distance; plus supporting forces from fighter jets to submarines to mines.
> 
> With adversaries investing so heavily in countering US airpower, Rafferty said, “it really then has to be surface-to-surface fires that begin to reduce the enemy integrated air defenses and long-range artillery that make up that layered standoff of A2/AD.” That means the Army has to switch from being a _consumer_ of the other services’ long-range fire support to a _provider_ of long-range firepower to support the other services.
> 
> The problem is the Army largely neglected its artillery for the last three decades, just as it neglected other essentials of large-scale conventional conflict such as anti-aircraft defense and electronic warfare. Now it’s scrambling to rebuild all three, with artillery taking pride of place.
> 
> “Think about the experimentation with Multi-Domain Task Forces,” Rafferty told me. Starting with an experimental unit in the Pacific, he said, “the pilots were successful enough in showing what could be done, centered around a field artillery brigade as the headquarters, with additional intelligence, cyber, and electronic warfare capability.
> 
> “The Army is committed to Multi-Domain Task Forces beyond just the initial pilot,” he went on, with a second MDTF being stood up in the Pacific and a third in Europe. To coordinate long-range firepower at a higher level, he said, “we’re developing the Theater Fires Command. That will give us the ability to employ strategic fires at a theater level and integrate coalition partners.”
> 
> Why are these new formations necessary? “We’re not structured now to fight and win with the systems that we’re going to deliver in the not too distant future,” Rafferty said bluntly. The Army will need new organizations, new tactics, and new training to make the most of the new hardware.
> 
> That’s why Rafferty’s Cross Functional Team, while it has representatives from all across the Army, is based at Fort Sill, the intellectual home of the artillery. “Here at Fort Sill,” he told me, “we can make sure that our doctrine is right and the training base is established so we’ve got artillerymen ready to man the systems.”
> 
> “Early in the morning when I go out and do PT, I see privates who are just getting started with their Army careers, and you have officers here for the basic and the advanced courses, and non-commissioned officers that are back here for professional military education,” Rafferty told me. “And you realize that you’re looking at the future hypersonic section chief, or a first sergeant of an ERCA battery, or the battery commander firing the first PrSM missile.”
> 
> “It does keep you pretty well grounded,” he said. “You realize that this is real and that these soldiers are counting on us to deliver.”
> 
> https://breakingdefense.com/2020/05...3.1146247346.1588285507-1284686552.1572645892



i acted a little over excited.P but according to this article they have two prototypes already.


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## TheImmortal

Mithridates said:


> i acted a little over excited.P but according to this article they have two prototypes already.



53 miles and _possibly_ 400 miles is a lot different than “1000s” of miles. It’s simple physics, without a motor to continue speed gravity and Newton’s laws will act upon object and slow it down.


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## Mithridates

TheImmortal said:


> 53 miles and _possibly_ 400 miles is a lot different than “1000s” of miles. It’s simple physics, without a motor to continue speed gravity and Newton’s laws will act upon object and slow it down.


bro it's initial speed is so high and that covers the lack of propulsion part.


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## ashool

Arminkh said:


> I just said the letter is old from the days that attack happened. Beck in the time it was declared as fake by Pentagon and the senator whom the letter is ent to als said he never received such letter. If IRGC has any video it's time they showed it.


g hajizade said in a tv show about qased slv i think when show man ask about al asad he said we have video but we show it in a tv for people in tv show about this attack but dont say when you can go see that video in near end of it he said but why they dont show it i dont know why .the usa g.must say its fake if dont say what he must say if they say its true they must go to war or .... like now


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## Shawnee

ashool said:


> g hajizade said in a tv show about qased slv i think when show man ask about al asad he said we have video but we show it in a tv for people in tv show about this attack but dont say when you can go see that video in near end of it he said but why they dont show it i dont know why .the usa g.must say its fake if dont say what he must say if they say its true they must go to war or .... like now



I remember he said that they have footage. We don’t know what the footage is. Time will tell. Patience.


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## Stryker1982

Shawnee said:


> I remember he said that they have footage. We don’t know what the footage is. Time will tell. Patience.



That's actually a good point, if their is some sort of footage, it might cause pressure for the U.S president to do retaliatory attacks if it looks real bad for the Americans.


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## Philosopher

If the Americans try to retaliate _after_ a video of casualties is released then that will damage their reputation even more, because it shows they knew the truth but wanted to keep it hidden to avoid looking very weak. Their best option is just to deny the authenticity of any clips that is released.

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## Stryker1982

Success of the Ain Al-Assad strike by Iran, considered *air defense failure* according to Rand Inst. U.S has adamantly denied the presence of any air defense a Ain Al-Assad during that time. Interesting.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262566684004683779

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## TheImmortal

Stryker1982 said:


> Success of the Ain Al-Assad strike by Iran, considered *air defense failure* according to Rand Inst. U.S has adamantly denied the presence of any air defense a Ain Al-Assad during that time. Interesting.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262566684004683779



Because there wasn’t.

If you don’t believe me, go buy commercial satellite photos of the base and surrounding area days before the attack.

In this day and age any amateur internet sleuth could debunk the government if they lied about air defense systems being there.

Fact is there isn’t many Patriot missiles to go around in the world or the Middle East. Al Assad base was not a strategic priority for missile attacks, it’s not even a US base.


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## Aramagedon

TheImmortal said:


> Because there wasn’t.
> 
> If you don’t believe me, go buy commercial satellite photos of the base and surrounding area days before the attack.
> 
> In this day and age any amateur internet sleuth could debunk the government if they lied about air defense systems being there.
> 
> Fact is there isn’t many Patriot missiles to go around in the world or the Middle East. Al Assad base was not a strategic priority for missile attacks, it’s not even a US base.


Since you are half american you should support your folks this much.


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## QWECXZ

TheImmortal said:


> Because there wasn’t.
> 
> If you don’t believe me, go buy commercial satellite photos of the base and surrounding area days before the attack.
> 
> In this day and age any amateur internet sleuth could debunk the government if they lied about air defense systems being there.
> 
> Fact is there isn’t many Patriot missiles to go around in the world or the Middle East. Al Assad base was not a strategic priority for missile attacks, it’s not even a US base.



You're kidding. Right? Ain Al-Assad is the largest US military base in Iraq. It is used by both Iraqi and US forces. The base is also used by the British forces.

Iran hit the US part of the base and even CNN reported it and interviewed US troops there. You have recently been disreputing yourself by posting comments that shows you know nothing about what you talk about.

If the US doesn't have AD for its largest military asset in Iraq, that's their problem.


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## TheImmortal

QWECXZ said:


> You're kidding. Right? Ain Al-Assad is the largest US military base in Iraq. It is used by both Iraqi and US forces. The base is also used by the British forces.
> 
> Iran hit the US part of the base and even CNN reported it and interviewed US troops there. You have recently been disreputing yourself by posting comments that shows you know nothing about what you talk about.
> 
> If the US doesn't have AD for its largest military asset in Iraq, that's their problem.



Then post proof. Instead of propaganda conjecture.

You do realize you can order commercial satellite photography? Right? Post proof there was ADs at the base at time of attack.

Literally not a single reputable open source disputes that claim. It can be easily proven if US is lying in that matter.

Al-Assad is an Iraqi military base NOT US military base, you should probably learn the difference. US military bases are sovereign territory, Al-Assad is still an Iraqi military base.

There are Patriot missile batteries in Baghdad and there are batteries NOW in Al-Assad, but at the time there was not batteries surrounding Al-Assad.

Again if you have proof that there was please do post it. If you can’t then you are the one who doesn’t know what they are talking about.

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## QWECXZ

TheImmortal said:


> Then post proof. Instead of propaganda conjecture.
> 
> You do realize you can order commercial satellite photography? Right? Post proof there was ADs at the base at time of attack.
> 
> Literally not a single reputable open source disputes that claim. It can be easily proven if US is lying in that matter.
> 
> Al-Assad is an Iraqi military base NOT US military base, you should probably learn the difference. US military bases are sovereign territory, Al-Assad is still an Iraqi military base.
> 
> There are Patriot missile batteries in Baghdad and there are batteries NOW in Al-Assad, but at the time there was not batteries surrounding Al-Assad.
> 
> Again if you have proof that there was please do post it. If you can’t then you are the one who doesn’t know what they are talking about.


When did I claim there was AD there? I said if there was no AD, it's the US problem.

What do you mean by US bases are sovereign territory? Since when a US base inside Iraq is sovereign territory? Under what international laws? LOL What do you mean by Al-Assad is an Iraqi base in the first place? The US and the British are obviously using it. So, you think that a military base is like an apartment that has a legal owner or what?


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## TheImmortal

QWECXZ said:


> When did I claim there was AD there? I said if there was no AD, it's the US problem.
> 
> What do you mean by US bases are sovereign territory? Since when a US base inside Iraq is sovereign territory? Under what international laws? LOL What do you mean by Al-Assad is an Iraqi base in the first place? The US and the British are obviously using it. So, you think that a military base is like an apartment that has a legal owner or what?



Again you show your lack of knowledge.

It’s because the number of THAAD and Patriot missile batteries is rather limited. It is impossible for US to cover every military base in the world it has forces at with air defense systems. US has acknowledged the short supply.

And you should probably go learn that military bases are SOVEREIGN territory just like embassies are SOVEREIGN territory. When a country agrees to HOST another military’s foreign forces it signs a CONTRACT with that country. For example Russia or iran would sign a contract with Syria for a military base that is covered for 99 years (example). The contract stipulates the rights of the foreign country and that “piece of land” becomes that country’s “property” for the specified time. This means that a Syrian military cannot magically walk into a Russian or Iranian military base without permission.

This is why Iranian constitution BANS foreign military bases on its soil because it is deemed a breach of sovereignty.

Al-Assad is an Iraqi military base under the control of the Iraqi government. US is merely stationed alongside the forces there. They don’t have full control over the base nor is it sovereign territory of US.


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## QWECXZ

TheImmortal said:


> Again you show your lack of knowledge.
> 
> It’s because the number of THAAD and Patriot missile batteries is rather limited. It is impossible for US to cover every military base in the world it has forces at with air defense systems. US has acknowledged the short supply.
> 
> And you should probably go learn that military bases are SOVEREIGN territory just like embassies are SOVEREIGN territory. When a country agrees to HOST another military’s foreign forces it signs a CONTRACT with that country. For example Russia or iran would sign a contract with Syria for a military base that is covered for 99 years (example). The contract stipulates the rights of the foreign country and that “piece of land” becomes that country’s “property” for the specified time. This means that a Syrian military cannot magically walk into a Russian or Iranian military base without permission.
> 
> This is why Iranian constitution BANS foreign military bases on its soil because it is deemed a breach of sovereignty.
> 
> Al-Assad is an Iraqi military base under the control of the Iraqi government. US is merely stationed alongside the forces there. They don’t have full control over the base nor is it sovereign territory of US.


If it's limited, why are they bringing Patriot SAMs now? 

And you should probably learn that even embassies are not sovereign territory. Stop making up things out of your ***. LOL Al-Assad was a US base and it was hit. Period.


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## Surenas

TheImmortal said:


> Al-Assad is an Iraqi military base NOT US military base, you should probably learn the difference. US military bases are sovereign territory, Al-Assad is still an Iraqi military base.



It is laughable to inject notions of sovereignty when discussing American military presence in Middle Eastern countries. Issues of legality hardly apply to the region.

The US is blatantly violating Syrian sovereignty in relation to its military base at al-Tanf, yet the reality is still that the United States is de facto operating a military base/outpost on the Syrian-Iraqi border.

The Iraqi parliament recently voted to end the presence of American forces on their soil, which the US subsequently rejected. 

Etc.

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## TheImmortal

QWECXZ said:


> If it's limited, why are they bringing Patriot SAMs now?
> 
> And you should probably learn that even embassies are not sovereign territory. Stop making up things out of your ***. LOL Al-Assad was a US base and it was hit. Period.



Do you know what limited means? After the base was attacked the US removed batteries from one location and put it in another. It does this routinely. It has removed batteries from Turkey and Saudi Arabia in recent times.

You are correct, embassies are not sovereign territory. The correct term would be immunity from the other countries laws and regulations. 

Case in point, when Saudi Arabia murdered that dissent in its Turkish embassy. It did so knowing full well the immunity the embassy property has from Turkish law. The investigation was also stalled because to enter the embassy and search it requires permission. 

After all everyone knows embassies are den of spies, so any country before placing an embassy in another country first agrees to the “terms” of that embassies protection and usually its very high (immunity). But yes you are correct The protection itself wouldn’t make the embassy sovereign territory.



Surenas said:


> It is laughable to inject notions of sovereignty when discussing American military presence in Middle Eastern countries. Issues of legality hardly apply to the region.
> 
> The US is blatantly violating Syrian sovereignty in relation to its military base at al-Tanf, yet the reality is still that the United States is de facto operating a military base/outpost on the Syrian-Iraqi border.
> 
> The Iraqi parliament recently voted to end the presence of American forces on their soil, which the US subsequently rejected.
> 
> Etc.



Absurd or not the matter still holds True. That doesn’t mean that the US like any empire doesn’t skirt the rules and violate them when it sees fit. It is just the way the world has worked since the first empires.

That doesn’t mean that laws are not valid or don’t apply. In case of US it has no legal basis for its bases in Syria nor has it signed a contract with Syria leasing that Land for its control. In case of Iraq, the resolution was non-binding. And also another weak country.


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## QWECXZ

TheImmortal said:


> Do you know what limited means? After the base was attacked the US removed batteries from one location and put it in another. It does this routinely. It has removed batteries from Turkey and Saudi Arabia in recent times.
> 
> You are correct, embassies are not sovereign territory. The correct term would be immunity from the other countries laws and regulations.
> 
> Case in point, when Saudi Arabia murdered that dissent in its Turkish embassy. It did so knowing full well the immunity the embassy property has from Turkish law. The investigation was also stalled because to enter the embassy and search it requires permission.
> 
> After all everyone knows embassies are den of spies, so any country before placing an embassy in another country first agrees to the “terms” of that embassies protection and usually its very high (immunity). But yes you are correct The protection itself wouldn’t make the embassy sovereign territory.


Fair enough. So, you're saying that the US is relocating its Patriot batteries from KSA and Turkey to Iraq now? Is that what you're saying? Is there a proof?

Yeah. The Vienna Convention gives diplomatic missions immunity, not sovereignty. Another example is the US Embassy Siege after the 1979 revolution. If the US embassies were sovereign territories, the US could've used that as a casus belli in the UNSC to not only attack Iran, but impose serious UNSC sanctions on Iran.


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## Surenas

TheImmortal said:


> Absurd or not the matter still holds True. That doesn’t mean that the US like any empire doesn’t skirt the rules and violate them when it sees fit. It is just the way the world has worked since the first empires.
> 
> That doesn’t mean that laws are not valid or don’t apply. In case of US it has no legal basis for its bases in Syria nor has it signed a contract with Syria leasing that Land for its control. In case of Iraq, the resolution was non-binding. And also another weak country.



The matter does not hold true in the face of reality. That is the only relevant factor in this whole discussion.


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## TheImmortal

QWECXZ said:


> Fair enough. So, you're saying that the US is relocating its Patriot batteries from KSA and Turkey to Iraq now? Is that what you're saying? Is there a proof?
> 
> Yeah. The Vienna Convention gives diplomatic missions immunity, not sovereignty. Another example is the US Embassy Siege after the 1979 revolution. If the US embassies were sovereign territories, the US could've used that as a casus belli in the UNSC to not only attack Iran, but impose serious UNSC sanctions on Iran.



_Regardless, imagery that The War Zoneexclusively obtained from Planet Labs of Al Asad in the immediate aftermath of the Iranian ballistic missile strikes on Jan. 7 confirms the Pentagon's own statements that there were no Patriot missile systems at the base at the time. At least as of the end of 2018, the Army was still operating land-based versions of the U.S. Navy's Mk 15 Phalanx close-in weapon system in Iraq in the counter-rockets, artillery, and mortars, or C-RAM, role, including one at Al Asad. These systems would not have been capable of engaging incoming Iranian ballistic missiles._

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ng-us-troops-in-iraq-and-why-they-still-arent

Where the exact patriot batteries came from is not known. But US has redeployed batteries from other theaters.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...me-patriot-missile-batteries-from-middle-east

https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/10/11/us-begins-removing-patriot-missiles-from-turkey/

US did “attack” Iran in 1979 in attempt to rescue hostages but the helicopters failed in a sand storm in Iranian desert.

Also forceful entry into an embassy and harm to its staff is enough casus belli to declare war. See Iran v Taliban embassy incident in Afghanistan.

But anyway the point is military bases have sovereign like protections in place and that is mostly to protect the foreign country from sudden changes in the eyes of the host countries government. Hence why securing a military base is deemed such an achievement because the contract is pretty iron clad with protections.


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## QWECXZ

TheImmortal said:


> _Regardless, imagery that The War Zoneexclusively obtained from Planet Labs of Al Asad in the immediate aftermath of the Iranian ballistic missile strikes on Jan. 7 confirms the Pentagon's own statements that there were no Patriot missile systems at the base at the time. At least as of the end of 2018, the Army was still operating land-based versions of the U.S. Navy's Mk 15 Phalanx close-in weapon system in Iraq in the counter-rockets, artillery, and mortars, or C-RAM, role, including one at Al Asad. These systems would not have been capable of engaging incoming Iranian ballistic missiles._
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ng-us-troops-in-iraq-and-why-they-still-arent
> 
> Where the exact patriot batteries came from is not known. But US has redeployed batteries from other theaters.
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...me-patriot-missile-batteries-from-middle-east
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/10/11/us-begins-removing-patriot-missiles-from-turkey/
> 
> US did “attack” Iran in 1979 in attempt to rescue hostages but the helicopters failed in a sand storm in Iranian desert.
> 
> Also forceful entry into an embassy and harm to its staff is enough casus belli to declare war. See Iran v Taliban embassy incident in Afghanistan.
> 
> But anyway the point is military bases have sovereign like protections in place and that is mostly to protect the foreign country from sudden changes in the eyes of the host countries government. Hence why securing a military base is deemed such an achievement because the contract is pretty iron clad with protections.


Fair enough.

As for the US Eagle Claw operation, the US didn't declare war on Iran. Moreover, attacking a UNSC permanent member's territory won't go unpunished. I'm not sure whether legally the US could invoke a casus belli. As for the Taliban incident with Iranian diplomats, Iran didn't attack Afghanistan at the end. Did we?


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## Arminkh

Stryker1982 said:


> Success of the Ain Al-Assad strike by Iran, considered *air defense failure* according to Rand Inst. U.S has adamantly denied the presence of any air defense a Ain Al-Assad during that time. Interesting.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262566684004683779


That is exactly what it is saying: the Al Assad had air defence relevant to the type of attack the happened otherwise it was pointless to mention it.


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## sha ah

Back then, Iran should have launched airstrikes on the Taliban, wiped out their very minor airforce quickly and then perhaps some bases or weapons depots. I'm not sure why Iran didn't take action ? From what I heard the Taliban apologized ? Perhaps there was some deal under the table ? 

Perhaps Iran didn't want to get embroiled in another war so soon after the Iran-Iran war when the economy was in recovery mode ? In any case, even then Iran could have completely decimated the Taliban. Even without sending in ground troops, continuous airstrikes would have probably led the Taliban losing a substantial amount of territory and clout. With a limited amount of elite units, Iran could have easily replicated what the US did in 2003. The issue is what would come afterwards ? 

Sending in troops into Afghanistan has been disastrous for the Soviet Union and now the USA. Perhaps Iran was afraid of the instability that would surely follow in the aftermath ? Perhaps they were afraid that it would lead to an unstable border and an influx of more Afghan refugees ? 

Remember back then the Taliban were on the verge of banning the Opium trade ? Perhaps that had something to do with Khamenei's decision not to retaliate ? In any case I still think Iran should have responded firmly and decisively to the Talibans heinous act against Iran's embassy. Again who knows what happened behind closed doors. 



QWECXZ said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> As for the US Eagle Claw operation, the US didn't declare war on Iran. Moreover, attacking a UNSC permanent member's territory won't go unpunished. I'm not sure whether legally the US could invoke a casus belli. As for the Taliban incident with Iranian diplomats, Iran didn't attack Afghanistan at the end. Did we?


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## TruthHurtz

sha ah said:


> Back then, Iran should have launched airstrikes on the Taliban, wiped out their very minor airforce quickly and then perhaps some bases or weapons depots. I'm not sure why Iran didn't take action ? From what I heard the Taliban apologized ? Perhaps there was some deal under the table ?
> 
> Perhaps Iran didn't want to get embroiled in another war so soon after the Iran-Iran war when the economy was in recovery mode ? In any case, even then Iran could have completely decimated the Taliban. Even without sending in ground troops, continuous airstrikes would have probably led the Taliban losing a substantial amount of territory and clout. With a limited amount of elite units, Iran could have easily replicated what the US did in 2003. The issue is what would come afterwards ?
> 
> Sending in troops into Afghanistan has been disastrous for the Soviet Union and now the USA. Perhaps Iran was afraid of the instability that would surely follow in the aftermath ? Perhaps they were afraid that it would lead to an unstable border and an influx of more Afghan refugees ?
> 
> Remember back then the Taliban were on the verge of banning the Opium trade ? Perhaps that had something to do with Khamenei's decision not to retaliate ? In any case I still think Iran should have responded firmly and decisively to the Talibans heinous act against Iran's embassy. Again who knows what happened behind closed doors.



Iran did retaliate. And Soleimani payed the price 20 years later. Never work with Americans.

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## TheImmortal

TruthHurtz said:


> Iran did retaliate. And Soleimani payed the price 20 years later. Never work with Americans.



What does one (Iran helping in 2000) have to do with the other (Solemani)?

Solemani helped in Afghanistan then killed servicemen in Iraq years later. And Gahani worked the Afghanistan file not Solemani. Solemani Quds Force killed hundreds of US servicemen through covert Quds force operations. He was well known in Marine circles.

Solemani knew when the US wanted him off the board they could take him at anytime. I mean the dude carried cellphones on him, compare that to Nasrallah that hides in a fortified bunker in Lebanon.

Let’s not act like the man didn’t have blood on his hands. He was a patriot and did what needed to be done in the messy world of geopolitics and war. A necessary evil that had to exist for his country. But let’s not whitewash his crimes or that of America either. 

Everyone’s hands have blood on them in this game, eventually the Reaper comes knocking for everyone.

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## ashool

TheImmortal said:


> What does one (Iran helping in 2000) have to do with the other (Solemani)?
> 
> Solemani helped in Afghanistan then killed servicemen in Iraq years later. And Gahani worked the Afghanistan file not Solemani. Solemani Quds Force killed hundreds of US servicemen through covert Quds force operations. He was well known in Marine circles.
> 
> Solemani knew when the US wanted him off the board they could take him at anytime. I mean the dude carried cellphones on him, compare that to Nasrallah that hides in a fortified bunker in Lebanon.
> 
> Let’s not act like the man didn’t have blood on his hands. He was a patriot and did what needed to be done in the messy world of geopolitics and war. A necessary evil that had to exist for his country. But let’s not whitewash his crimes or that of America either.
> 
> Everyone’s hands have blood on them in this game, eventually the Reaper comes knocking for everyone.


what do you mean by evil is solaimani goto cuba or canada to kills americans to beacame evil yes he ordered to kill usa army but its not like he kill them bic he liked it its bic they are evil and he like angle kill these little satans so he is not blood on his hands its its about what are you r\thinking and howand for what .i dont think you born in iran or even know about our culture


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## Philosopher

Just been revisiting the videos around the Iran missile strike on US air base and the statements by the soldiers. The theme is them being utterly horrified and feeling helpless. The devastation by these ballistic missiles is obviously large but then I was reminded these were caused by "only" Fateh-313 and Qiams. Now you can imagine what something like Khorramshahr with its 1800 Kg warhead traveling at mach 12-15 would do.

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## raptor22

Anyone knows anything about this? every single missile has one of this? or it launch all if them?

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## raptor22

raptor22 said:


> Anyone knows anything about this? every single missile has one of this? or it launch all if them?
> View attachment 634699
> View attachment 634701


No one doesn't know?


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## PeeD

Its the launch control of the TEL.

The crew always leaves the TEL to safe distance since there is always the risk of malfunction or attack.

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## NADIM.NAZI



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## raptor22

PeeD said:


> Its the launch control of the TEL.
> 
> The crew always leaves the TEL to safe distance since there is always the risk of malfunction or attack.


I know what it is what I wanna know is probably it would be wired to each TEL in time of firing a missile? or one for several of them? I mean isn't a system to control a number of TEL without need of such a thing?


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## PeeD

If a near simultaneous launch is desired each crew will used their clocks.

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## TheImmortal

raptor22 said:


> I know what it is what I wanna know is probably it would be wired to each TEL in time of firing a missile? or one for several of them? I mean isn't a system to control a number of TEL without need of such a thing?



You are lighting a ballistic missile carrying a massive warhead, not a firecracker. 

How can one system SAFELY signal ignition in multiple engines? Use common sense.

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## Sineva

raptor22 said:


> I know what it is what I wanna know is probably it would be wired to each TEL in time of firing a missile? or one for several of them? I mean isn't a system to control a number of TEL without need of such a thing?


You could certainly do that,after all if you can transmit firing orders to a tel crew in the field then you could definitely go one step further and transmit the firing order directly to the tels onboard fire control system.......however,and there are some BIG "howevers",the problem then becomes one of having both a secure and reliable transmission system that is both capable of reliably covering ALL of iran geographically as well as being robust enough to survive both physical attacks plus ew attacks from enemies.In addition depending on the degree of the complexity of the system this might require the tel crew to put the missile in a firable state and this would require them to have to signal this back to the central command post prior to any remote firing,so you would now require VERY reliable 2way communications links.Another way would be to remotely enable and operate the entire firing system on the tel with the crew just being required to oversee the process to make sure that there werent any problems with the launch preparation sequence.
To make something like this fully workable you`d really need a constellation of com sats.But its all within irans technological capabilities.


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## raptor22

TheImmortal said:


> You are lighting a ballistic missile carrying a massive warhead, not a firecracker.
> 
> How can one system SAFELY signal ignition in multiple engines? Use common sense.





Sineva said:


> You could certainly do that,after all if you can transmit firing orders to a tel crew in the field then you could definitely go one step further and transmit the firing order directly to the tels onboard fire control system.......however,and there are some BIG "howevers",the problem then becomes one of having both a secure and reliable transmission system that is both capable of reliably covering ALL of iran geographically as well as being robust enough to survive both physical attacks plus ew attacks from enemies.In addition depending on the degree of the complexity of the system this might require the tel crew to put the missile in a firable state and this would require them to have to signal this back to the central command post prior to any remote firing,so you would now require VERY reliable 2way communications links.Another way would be to remotely enable and operate the entire firing system on the tel with the crew just being required to oversee the process to make sure that there werent any problems with the launch preparation sequence.
> To make something like this fully workable you`d really need a constellation of com sats.But its all within irans technological capabilities.


Well it'd be useful in case of firing 400 missiles as Hajizade said against American respond to Ain Alassad missile strike.
I just think of a more agile system ..


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## Sineva

raptor22 said:


> Well it'd be useful in case of firing 400 missiles as Hajizade said against American respond to Ain Alassad missile strike.
> I just think of a more agile system ..


This is in fact exactly the very sort of command and control system that you would expect iran to develop if,or indeed when,it becomes a nuclear armed state.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1265422968219262976

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## PeeD

I recommend everyone interested on what Salman stage means technologically for Iran to fully read this article, even if it is about the unrelated Chinese DF-31:

https://patarames.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-df-31-chinas-technological-path-to.html

It gives the necessary understanding about the magnitude of this Iranian achievement.

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## Oldman1

TheImmortal said:


> it’s impossible to fire any shell “1000s of miles”. I mean this is basic physics.
> 
> Even Navy’s magical railgun was only 100-200 mile range.


I don't know about the railgun's range. I mean if thats true and considering it doesn't have the long range barrel like you see in the past. You can't really say its impossible unless you figure out. Considering they were able to fire an object into space 100 miles high, but not in range. Who knows, probably send the object into space, less resistance besides gravity.



Philosopher said:


> Yes, but these are mostly GPS/satellite guided systems. Satellite guidance is not something you can rely on in a major conflict in my opinion. We're discussing internal navigation system that could withstand the extreme g forces.


Considering the technology where you have laser guidance, INS, infrared, imaging, radar, besides GPS jamming resistance, etc. Don't doubt it.


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## yavar

raptor22 said:


> Anyone knows anything about this? every single missile has one of this? or it launch all if them?
> View attachment 634699
> View attachment 634701


Qiam-2 tactical, No each TEL has operating launch system with operator

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## Sineva

Heres a rather interesting pic that I found.
It shows the differences in size between the khorramshahr,the musudan and the original ss-n-6/r-27 zyb missiles






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261337174965989378

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## TheImmortal

Sineva said:


> Heres a rather interesting pic that I found.
> It shows the differences in size between the khorramshahr,the musudan and the original ss-n-6/r-27 zyb missiles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261337174965989378



The question is how operational is this missile. There was a poster a little bit ago that showed Iran has moved from Khorramshahr and there is already a Khorramshahr II. 

However, as we saw with Ashura/Sejill/Sejill II, sometimes difficulty in mass production forces a smaller amount being built even though a newer “generation” appears shortly after the first. 

Given Iran’s reluctance to Testfire BMs in order to not upset world powers it’s hard to gauge the status of Iran’s 

Medium range BM program as Iran only tests F-110 regularly now a days compared to pre-2012 for MRBMs. (Even the Initial video showed of Khorramshahr was from a test years ago).

Khorramshahr was the first MRBM unveiled in nearly a decade (Sejill 2009), but now we know Khorramshahr was development at the same time as Sejill so is in fact not a “new” missile per se.

The fact remains there has been no new missile design unveiled since Tehrani Moghadams death. Everything unveiled so far was developed prior to his death.

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## Shawnee

TheImmortal said:


> However, as we saw with Ashura/Sejill/Sejill II, sometimes difficulty in mass production forces a smaller amount being built even though a newer “generation” appears shortly after the first.
> .



Source?
Who do you mean by “we”? I have not seen a shred of evidence on this statement.
.........

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## Arminkh

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1079766/کشته-شدن-فرمانده-مشهور-ارتش-عربستان-در-حمله-موشکی-انصارالله

Wondering if it was a lucky shot or some kind of precision strike? Especially given the claim tha only one rocket was fired.

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## hussainb72

Arminkh said:


> https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1079766/کشته-شدن-فرمانده-مشهور-ارتش-عربستان-در-حمله-موشکی-انصارالله
> 
> Wondering if it was a lucky shot or some kind of precision strike? Especially given the claim tha only one rocket was fired.



Well they had done it before, so it's not strange for them to be able to carry out such strikes. And they probably have access to some newer guided rockets from iran.

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## Sineva

Footage of precision guided zelzal launch

        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> However, as we saw with Ashura/Sejill/Sejill II, sometimes difficulty in mass production forces a smaller amount being built even though a newer “generation” appears shortly after the first.



Sejil is a special purpose asset in Irans missile arsenal.
As two stage and limited lifetime weapon, it is the most expensive missile Iran has.

It has been serial produced since long time but not in the numbers of Ghadr.

Khorramshahr replaces the payload of 3 Ghadrs. Hence even if its production is way more difficult than the Ghadr it will be a more economical weapon system. It is maybe the best small sized tactical missile in terms of price and effect for Iran.

Everyone should always remember this: 
A 1998 lot Shahab-3 sits since 22 years in a mountain tunnel in a vacuum plastic bag.
A 2009 production lot Sejil-1 needs in at least 3-4 years a total fuel replacement for two stages.

Sejil is there and fulfills a special role.
Khorramshahr will replace Ghadr in the liquid missile production factory sooner or later completely.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270494234815205378

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## skyshadow

*Iran's rocket arsenal puts Middle East peace at risk*

*




*

*https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/iran-s-rocket-arsenal-puts-middle-east-peace-at-risk-1.1032312*

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## Sina-1



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## skyshadow



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## Philosopher

What a great picture:

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## skyshadow

*Admiral Khanzadi, Commander of the Navy, announced the production of supersonic cruise missiles with turbofan engines in Iran in the near future.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273672552611819520

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## Philosopher

skyshadow said:


> *Admiral Khanzadi, Commander of the Navy, announced the production of supersonic cruise missiles with turbofan engines in Iran in the near future.*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273672552611819520



This has just made my day. Thank you brother. Finally we have confirmation that a supersonic air breathing AshM is coming soon.
Are we sure he said "turbofan"? I expect supersonic system to be of the ramjet nature.

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## Philip the Arab

SCOT?


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## hussainb72

Philosopher said:


> This has just made my day. Thank you brother. Finally we have confirmation that a supersonic air breathing AshM is coming soon.
> Are we sure he said "turbofan"? I expect supersonic system to be of the ramjet nature.


The 3M-54 Kalibr missile actually uses a turbo jet engine and can reach a speed of mach 2.9. So it's possible to use a turbo jet engine, and probably a turbo fan engine as well.
Also there is a chance it might be a reverse engineered Kalibr missile.

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## Shawnee

Philosopher said:


> This has just made my day. Thank you brother. Finally we have confirmation that a supersonic air breathing AshM is coming soon.
> Are we sure he said "turbofan"? I expect supersonic system to be of the ramjet nature.



We had both ramjet and Turbofan on the edge of blossoming. Excellent anyway!
......

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## Philosopher

hussainb72 said:


> The 3M-54 Kalibr missile actually uses a turbo jet engine and can reach a speed of mach 2.9. So it's possible to use a turbo jet engine, and probably a turbo fan engine as well.
> Also there is a chance it might be a reverse engineered Kalibr missile.



From what I understand, the Kalibr missile is a 2 stage system. It flies at subsonic speed using its jet engine and then when near the target, a second *solid fuelled* stage takes over and pushes the missile into supersonic speed.
I will wait for clarification before conjecturing further. I will certainly be surprised if they go with a turbofan solution. This is an incredible news regardless of the details.

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## Shawnee

Philosopher said:


> From what I understand, the Kalibr missile is a 2 stage system. It flies at subsonic speed using its jet engine and then when near the target, a second *solid fuelled* stage takes over and pushes the missile into supersonic speed.
> I will wait for clarification before conjecturing further. I will certainly be surprised if they go with a turbofan solution. This is an incredible news regardless of the details.



If we mount Fajr series on Karrar, we can attain that technology. Drone launching solid fuel missile. Karrar has 900 kg of payload.
.......

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## Philosopher

Shawnee said:


> If we mount Fajr series on Karrar, we can attain that technology.
> .......



Iran can develop something like Kalibr with ease. There is zero technical barriers for Iran. What makes ramjet systems different is that they are supersonic throughout their flight. I am liking Khanzadi so far. He has given us many good news in the naval sector. Thanks to all our Shirmardan and Shirzana working day and night to propel our defence industry forward.

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## Iskander

Philosopher said:


> Are we sure he said "turbofan"? I expect supersonic system to be of the ramjet nature.


may be a missile like 3M-54 kalibr

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## Philosopher

Iskander said:


> may be a missile like 3M-54 kalibr



Sure, it could be a system using a Qader/Qadir like system (with a new turbofan) as first stage and a solid fuelled 2nd stage. This is certainly a possibility. This could be a good solution for Iranian navy.

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## Iskander

Philosopher said:


> Sure, it could be a system using a Qader/Qadir like system (with a new turbofan) as first stage and a solid fuelled 2nd stage. This is certainly a possibility. This could be a good solution for Iranian navy.


Yes it's a good solution, long range capability thanks to turbofan engine which is very difficult to achieve with ramjet engine and supersonic speed at terminal phase makes it hard to intercept by ships defenses

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## hussainb72

Philosopher said:


> From what I understand, the Kalibr missile is a 2 stage system. It flies at subsonic speed using its jet engine and then when near the target, a second *solid fuelled* stage takes over and pushes the missile into supersonic speed.
> I will wait for clarification before conjecturing further. I will certainly be surprised if they go with a turbofan solution. This is an incredible news regardless of the details.


Nevermind, the article I read at first which explained how the system worked was confusing, so I just removed what I wrote here. Anyway we have to wait until they show what they really designed.


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## TheImmortal

Philosopher said:


> This has just made my day. Thank you brother. Finally we have confirmation that a supersonic air breathing AshM is coming soon.
> Are we sure he said "turbofan"? I expect supersonic system to be of the ramjet nature.



This is old news.

Wait till they announce Zolfaghar variant with HGV warhead.

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## Myself

Few year ago they stated the same thing: “... we are waiting for the high ranked authorities to start mass production of supersonic anti-ship missiles...”


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## PeeD

Kalibr/YJ-18 equivalent.
There is no other reason to call a supersonic missile a turbofan engine equipped one.

IRGC-N may already have it in horizontal launch version. Navy likely is second in the order list and needs a VLS version of it.

Purely ramjet engines do not fit well in a Navy VLS, if they do they have too short range/small warhead.

Turbofan is required because it needs that 700km range, carry the heavy kill stage and do a search pattern once inside target area.
This search pattern is one of its benefits over ASBM's.
Your kill chain component of targeting must work well when ASBM's are to be used.
With Kalibr you can basically send it into a sector where enemy activity is suspected.
So when your targeting capability is degraded and the seeker as a recognizing AI, a Kalibr like CM is every useful even if ASBM are available.

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## skyshadow

Philosopher said:


> This has just made my day. Thank you brother. Finally we have confirmation that a supersonic air breathing AshM is coming soon.
> Are we sure he said "turbofan"? I expect supersonic system to be of the ramjet nature.


yes he said it

*Admiral Khanzadi also said long range CMs will be unveiled soon and that Navy is after VLS for its missiles and that Navy is going to build Talaeyh missiles.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273890998800789504

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## Aspen

Cannot wait to see them unveil those hypersonic beasts

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## Draco.IMF

PeeD said:


> Kalibr/YJ-18 equivalent.
> There is no other reason to call a supersonic missile a turbofan engine equipped one.
> 
> IRGC-N may already have it in horizontal launch version. Navy likely is second in the order list and needs a VLS version of it.
> 
> Purely ramjet engines do not fit well in a Navy VLS, if they do they have too short range/small warhead.
> 
> Turbofan is required because it needs that 700km range, carry the heavy kill stage and do a search pattern once inside target area.
> This search pattern is one of its benefits over ASBM's.
> Your kill chain component of targeting must work well when ASBM's are to be used.
> With Kalibr you can basically send it into a sector where enemy activity is suspected.
> So when your targeting capability is degraded and the seeker as a recognizing AI, a Kalibr like CM is every useful even if ASBM are available.



Rumours Iran purchased the Kalibr export version (Club-S) for the Kilo class subs.
If true maybe they reverse engineered them and made its own version

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## Philosopher

skyshadow said:


>



That missile mockup looks like a ramjet system to me.

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## hussainb72

Philosopher said:


> That missile mockup looks like a ramjet system to me.


It looks like the Kh-31 missile, which is an air to surface missile with a solid booster for the initial launch and a ram jet for the rest of the flight. It might also be the P 270 Moskit missile, which has ram jets on some variants.


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## Philosopher

*Iran’s Navy Commander: Supersonic Missiles Production atop Agenda*

TEHRAN (FNA)- Iranian Navy Commander Rear Admiral Hossein Khanzadi said that Iran will soon develop *the third generation of supersonic missiles, adding that new turbofan engines will be used to accelerate the speed of the supersonic missiles in near future.
There will be changes in the engines of the Navy’s missiles that will enable them to tolerate higher temperature for longer time*, Khanzadi said.

He added that the fueling and navigation systems of the Navy will also undergo changes.

Rear Admiral Khanzadi noted, “Today we have reached the range of 300 kilometers *and we will achieve a bedazzling range in near future.”*

He said that the Navy is* also pursuing production of the generation of Talaeey-e missiles, adding, “The missiles that have been used as cruise today, are of the infrasonic generation and they will fly with supersonic speed soon.”*

In sum, we are trying to make the missiles capable of vertical flight as this will enable us to station more missiles on the deck of the ships to shoot at a variety of targets, Khanzadi further said.

In June, the Admiral had stressed his forces' full determination and preparedness to defend the country against enemies' threats.

Iranian Navy forces are standing firmly against all enemies' plots and are afraid of no threat, Rear Admiral Khanzadi said on June 10.

Iranian soldiers have always stood for establishing security and keeping the global arrogance away from Iranian borders, especially in the sea.

https://en.farsnews.ir/newstext.aspx?nn=13990330000343





hussainb72 said:


> It looks like the Kh-31 missile, which is an air to surface missile with a solid booster for the initial launch and a ram jet for the rest of the flight. It might also be the P 270 Moskit missile, which has ram jets on some variants.



Many of these systems tend to look similar. It is the subtle differences that sets them apart. For example here is a Chinese Supersonic AshM:

YJ-12:

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## hussainb72

Philosopher said:


> *Iran’s Navy Commander: Supersonic Missiles Production atop Agenda*
> 
> TEHRAN (FNA)- Iranian Navy Commander Rear Admiral Hossein Khanzadi said that Iran will soon develop *the third generation of supersonic missiles, adding that new turbofan engines will be used to accelerate the speed of the supersonic missiles in near future.
> There will be changes in the engines of the Navy’s missiles that will enable them to tolerate higher temperature for longer time*, Khanzadi said.
> 
> He added that the fueling and navigation systems of the Navy will also undergo changes.
> 
> Rear Admiral Khanzadi noted, “Today we have reached the range of 300 kilometers *and we will achieve a bedazzling range in near future.”*
> 
> He said that the Navy is* also pursuing production of the generation of Talaeey-e missiles, adding, “The missiles that have been used as cruise today, are of the infrasonic generation and they will fly with supersonic speed soon.”*
> 
> In sum, we are trying to make the missiles capable of vertical flight as this will enable us to station more missiles on the deck of the ships to shoot at a variety of targets, Khanzadi further said.
> 
> In June, the Admiral had stressed his forces' full determination and preparedness to defend the country against enemies' threats.
> 
> Iranian Navy forces are standing firmly against all enemies' plots and are afraid of no threat, Rear Admiral Khanzadi said on June 10.
> 
> Iranian soldiers have always stood for establishing security and keeping the global arrogance away from Iranian borders, especially in the sea.
> 
> https://en.farsnews.ir/newstext.aspx?nn=13990330000343
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many of these systems tend to look similar. It is the subtle differences that sets them apart. For example here is a Chinese Supersonic AshM:
> 
> YJ-12:


Well the Kh 31 is much smaller than the P 270 and the YJ 12, but yea, they all follow a general form to achieve such supersonic speeds.


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## Philosopher

hussainb72 said:


> Well the Kh 31 is much smaller than the P 270 and the YJ 12, but yea, they all follow a general form to achieve such supersonic speeds.



Such a shame we do not have a closer up of that mockup. To my eyes it is different to the KH-31. The Iranian system appears to be of an overall sleeker design.

Some interesting points from the above Fars article:

1) 3rd generation of supersonic missiles: I will await to hear the words directly from the commander before making full judgement. He may meant these supersonic systems are the 3rd generation of Iranian cruise missiles rather than the 3rd generation of supersonic systems.
2) He is emphasising mainly on the turbofan, I wonder if they possible they are working on a purely turbofan supersonic system. I am still going for a 2 stage air-breathing/solid fuelled system for now.
3) He is talking about the range of next generation missile being "bedazzling". This is obviously linked the design of a much more efficient turbofan engine.

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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


>


Again it hit too high for my taste ,wished it hit a little lower.


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## Mithridates

Hack-Hook said:


> Again it hit too high for my taste ,wished it hit a little lower.


the missile looks for commanding bridge.

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## Hack-Hook

Mithridates said:


> the missile looks for commanding bridge.


I want the ship sank. Look at konarak incident . it hit the command bridge but failed to sink a 300ton ship or the incident with Israeli boat against it went for command center instead of the water line and it hit a crane .

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## Shawnee

Hack-Hook said:


> I want the ship sank. Look at konarak incident . it hit the command bridge but failed to sink a 300ton ship or the incident with Israeli boat against it went for command center instead of the water line and it hit a crane .



Iranian target ships rarely sink because they have multiple inside floating chambers to make them multiple-use targets. I heard it in like 2012 in a question back then.
........

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## hussainb72

Hack-Hook said:


> I want the ship sank. Look at konarak incident . it hit the command bridge but failed to sink a 300ton ship or the incident with Israeli boat against it went for command center instead of the water line and it hit a crane .


I think that disabling a ship is better tgank sinking it. You can later capture the ship and maybe even use the equipment on it for research, or even rebuild the super structure and equip it with Iranian made equipment and bring it to service, but I am not sure if the latter is feasible or not.

Also 1 more thing that I forgot to mention is that it's easier to disable a ship than to sink it. You would need less missiles to disable a large destroyers compared to the amount needed to sink one. And it wouldn't really make a difference because in both cases, it will no longer act as a threat.

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## Hack-Hook

hussainb72 said:


> I think that disabling a ship is better tgank sinking it. You can later capture the ship and maybe even use the equipment on it for research, or even rebuild the super structure and equip it with Iranian made equipment and bring it to service, but I am not sure if the latter is feasible or not.


Israeli ship didn't vet disabled



hussainb72 said:


> I think that disabling a ship is better tgank sinking it. You can later capture the ship and maybe even use the equipment on it for research, or even rebuild the super structure and equip it with Iranian made equipment and bring it to service, but I am not sure if the latter is feasible or not.
> 
> Also 1 more thing that I forgot to mention is that it's easier to disable a ship than to sink it. You would need less missiles to disable a large destroyers compared to the amount needed to sink one. And it wouldn't really make a difference because in both cases, it will no longer act as a threat.


My examples was against real ships


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## hussainb72

Hack-Hook said:


> Israeli ship didn't vet disabled


Well that was 1 missile only and it hit relatively low. If they had launches 2 or 3 and those missiles had hit the superstructure, the ship would be disabled.

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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> Again it hit too high for my taste ,wished it hit a little lower.



Destroyers are built to survive hits below waterline. Hitting lower to disable a ship is a fallacy. 

Only way you will sink a destroyer if you penetrate to ammo bay and cause a chain reaction.

Going for command and control center is head of the snake. Ship will finished.

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## sahureka2

As written above, a missile rarely sinks a military ship directly, but manages to seriously disable it and put it out of action, even to sink the Israeli destroyer Eilat, 3 gigantic SS-N 2 Styx missiles were needed that had an explosive charge of 450 kg.
Although they are old weapons, 533 mm torpedoes are the most devastating weapons if they hit a ship, the South Koreans have been the most recent witnesses.

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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> Again it hit too high for my taste ,wished it hit a little lower.


its 2 meter above the sea how much low a missile should go to get recognized around here? ahhhhh

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## Aramagedon

Hack-Hook said:


> Again it hit too high for my taste ,wished it hit a little lower.


You should find an icecream shop for your needs ... You cannot find it in " Iranian Missiles " thread ...

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## Sina-1

skyshadow said:


> its 2 meter above the sea how much low a missile should go to get recognized around here? ahhhhh


Some analysts put it well below 2m even.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273563418474229760

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## Dariush the Great

skyshadow said:


> its 2 meter above the sea how much low a missile should go to get recognized around here? ahhhhh


he means he wanted the missile to hit exactly the side

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## Aramagedon

Dariush the Great said:


> he means he wanted the missile to hit exactly the side


Something that is impossible.


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## Arminkh

Hack-Hook said:


> I want the ship sank. Look at konarak incident . it hit the command bridge but failed to sink a 300ton ship or the incident with Israeli boat against it went for command center instead of the water line and it hit a crane .



Whats the point of sinking a ship but environmental disaster while you can put it out of service for good? In case of Konarak, it just cannot be overhauled. You should use it as scrap metal. 

Just imagine what happens if one of US nuclear powered vessels is sunk in the Persian Gulf? It does more harm to Iran than to US

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## Philosopher

Arminkh said:


> Whats the point of sinking a ship but environmental disaster while you can put it out of service for good? In case of Konarak, it just cannot be overhauled. You should use it as scrap metal.
> 
> Just imagine what happens if one of US nuclear powered vessels is sunk in the Persian Gulf? It does more harm to Iran than to US



Exactly Arminkh Jan,

In a purely military sense, taking a ship out of service is what matters. After that, you can chose to do whatever you want such as take over it, sink it (as last resort) and so on. Downright sinking it and causing 1000's of casualties may force the adversary to do something desperate, including resorting to nuclear systems. This is especially relevant when dealing with trigger happy simpletons like Trump.

I recall an interview with the now current head of IRGC, Gen Salami where he said during a conflict they are not necessarily looking to sink the ships.

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## Arminkh

Philosopher said:


> Exactly Arminkh Jan,
> 
> In a purely military sense, taking a ship out of service is what matters. After that, you can chose to do whatever you want such as take over it, sink it (as last resort) and so on. Downright sinking it and causing 1000's of casualties may force the adversary to do something desperate, including resorting to nuclear systems. This is especially relevant when dealing with trigger happy simpletons like Trump.
> 
> I recall an interview with the now current head of IRGC, Gen Salami where he said during a conflict they are not necessarily looking to sink the ships.


Very true. Limitations has made Iran's military strategists very frugal and practical. Waste less ammo, but result is the same for you. Furthermore, you force the enemy to now get engaged in a much bigger search and rescue mission which will keep them engaged.

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## skyshadow

Dariush the Great said:


> he means he wanted the missile to hit exactly the side


well look at the target it small less then 2 meters so if the target was a destroyer or tanker it would have hit in bullseye


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## scimitar19

Hack-Hook said:


> Again it hit too high for my taste ,wished it hit a little lower.



Your observation is interesting I have to say.
Looks like Iranian AshCM have awkward tendency to hit joint parts between the surface deck and the sides of the ship.





This is damage from INS Hanit taken during Hezbollah war in 2006. Very cloese to the surface of the deck.

Also there was a report that the second missile fired at Hanit missed and locked another merchant ship VM Moonlight a Cambodian merchant ship. After the merchant ship was struck it sank at the bottom of the sea.



Arminkh said:


> Whats the point of sinking a ship but environmental disaster while you can put it out of service for good? In case of Konarak, it just cannot be overhauled. You should use it as scrap metal.
> 
> Just imagine what happens if one of US nuclear powered vessels is sunk in the Persian Gulf? It does more harm to Iran than to US


 Or you can use it for a live stew pot designed to cook humans. Mmm delicious!

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## Hack-Hook

Arminkh said:


> Whats the point of sinking a ship but environmental disaster while you can put it out of service for good?


you have the option that let enemy ships sink your ship and make environmental disaster or you sink enemy ship and let them make that environmental disaster. by the way the only Nuclear ships make environmental disaster , normal ship will make fantastic artificial reefs for marine life to flourish around it.



Philosopher said:


> Exactly Arminkh Jan,
> 
> In a purely military sense, taking a ship out of service is what matters. After that, you can chose to do whatever you want such as take over it, sink it (as last resort) and so on. Downright sinking it and causing 1000's of casualties may force the adversary to do something desperate, including resorting to nuclear systems. This is especially relevant when dealing with trigger happy simpletons like Trump.
> 
> I recall an interview with the now current head of IRGC, Gen Salami where he said during a conflict they are not necessarily looking to sink the ships.


hitting above deck like what it did , could not damage hanit enough so it need a tug to go to port , and it was fixed very soon. and hanit is small and week structure , consider what little it could do against a cruiser. there is no choice it must hit lower . the lower it fly , the harder to intercept it and the higher the damage would be .


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## sahureka2

Sorry if I intrude on the discussion.
Unlike that target that had only limited superstructures therefore the effect of the explosion was free to let off steam outwards, if instead it hit a frigate, a destroyer, a cruisers at that height, it penetrated and exploded, the subsequent wave of impact of the explosion itself would find very few escape routes, this would lead to an overpressure inside which would amplify both the effect of the explosion and internal damage.

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## makranman

Hack-Hook said:


> you have the option that let enemy ships sink your ship and make environmental disaster or you sink enemy ship and let them make that environmental disaster



I wonder what would be cheaper: 
nuclear leak from a naval reactor with very pure uranium in the Persian gulf?
loosing some infrastructure in the coast line?

I would personally choose the loosing of infrastructure. just look at how much ukraine and belarus are paying to this day because of chernobil. (as for belarus, it is some 5% of their entire GDP!) even if our government chooses to ignore it (just like what they do for air pollution) the costs will bit us in the back and we will pay eventually one way or another.

now if we sink a carrier, I don't think arab kingdoms would just sit and watch their entire lifeline become radioactive...

sinking those giant ships is not an option...


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## hussainb72

Hack-Hook said:


> you have the option that let enemy ships sink your ship and make environmental disaster or you sink enemy ship and let them make that environmental disaster. by the way the only Nuclear ships make environmental disaster , normal ship will make fantastic artificial reefs for marine life to flourish around it.
> 
> 
> hitting above deck like what it did , could not damage hanit enough so it need a tug to go to port , and it was fixed very soon. and hanit is small and week structure , consider what little it could do against a cruiser. there is no choice it must hit lower . the lower it fly , the harder to intercept it and the higher the damage would be .


It's not really a good idea to sink a ship in the gulf, whether it is a nuclear powered or not. The gulf is too shallow and if a ship sinks in an area that is a route used to move in and out, it will be blocked and has to be cleared so that large ships can pass through the area again.


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## Hack-Hook

hussainb72 said:


> It's not really a good idea to sink a ship in the gulf, whether it is a nuclear powered or not. The gulf is too shallow and if a ship sinks in an area that is a route used to move in and out, it will be blocked and has to be cleared so that large ships can pass through the area again.


No it's not a bad idea . Look at the map ,straight of hormoz is the shallow one , the rest of the Persian Gulf is not that shallow.

By the way if a missile that size fail to sink a small ship like konarak ,you think how will be the damage against a *Ticonderoga* class ship ?



sahureka2 said:


> Sorry if I intrude on the discussion.
> Unlike that target that had only limited superstructures therefore the effect of the explosion was free to let off steam outwards, if instead it hit a frigate, a destroyer, a cruisers at that height, it penetrated and exploded, the subsequent wave of impact of the explosion itself would find very few escape routes, this would lead to an overpressure inside which would amplify both the effect of the explosion and internal damage.


Only if like usa leased catamaran the ship is made of aluminum or like our target ships of plywood.
Against an steel or titanium made ship it probable explode at exterior of ship.


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## hussainb72

Hack-Hook said:


> No it's not a bad idea . Look at the map ,straight of hormoz is the shallow one , the rest of the Persian Gulf is not that shallow.
> 
> By the way if a missile that size fail to sink a small ship like konarak ,you think how will be the damage against a *Ticonderoga* class ship ?


First of all, the average depth of the gulf is about 50 meters. So there are some shallow locations, but the main threat will be either at the straight of the Hormoz or near the shores of the arab countries. Both these locations are shallow and you dont want to sink a ship there. 
Also regarding the missile that hit the Konark, I have read that it didnt have an explosive warhead. But anyway we have seen the explosive power of Iranian missiles before so you dont have to question this.

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## sahureka2

[QUOTE="Hack-Hook]
Only if like usa leased catamaran the ship is made of aluminum or like our target ships of plywood.
Against an steel or titanium made ship it probable explode at exterior of ship.[/QUOTE]

Titanium? It is new to me, which naval unit is made of titanium today?
Steel ?, of course, but today the sheets are not as thick as an Abrams or Leopard tank and the battleships are now retired, therefore when a missile impacts the steel side of a military ship today in Mach 0.8-0.9 or even more, this penetrates inside and it would already cause a lot of damage, then if the explosive charge deflagrates the damage increases exponentially.

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## Hack-Hook

sahureka2 said:


> Titanium? It is new to me, which naval unit is made of titanium today?
> Steel ?, of course, but today the sheets are not as thick as an Abrams or Leopard tank and the battleships are now retired, therefore when a missile impacts the steel side of a military ship today in Mach 0.8-0.9 or even more, this penetrates inside and it would already cause a lot of damage, then if the explosive charge deflagrates the damage increases exponentially.


the sheets are still thicker than what you think and each USA ship that is being built uses more Titanium Alloy Ti-5111 and Ti-6Al-4V ELI than the perevios one in their construction

by the way people posted this picture and made joke about it 




but are you aware it managed to sail to its destination 



hussainb72 said:


> First of all, the average depth of the gulf is about 50 meters. So there are some shallow locations, but the main threat will be either at the straight of the Hormoz or near the shores of the arab countries. Both these locations are shallow and you dont want to sink a ship there.
> Also regarding the missile that hit the Konark, I have read that it didnt have an explosive warhead. But anyway we have seen the explosive power of Iranian missiles before so you dont have to question this.


the ship will become a reef that marine life flourish around it


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## hussainb72

Hack-Hook said:


> the ship will become a reef that marine life flourish around it


The deepest point in the strait of hormuz is about 100m, and a US air craft carrier is around 70m. That aircraft carrier has to pass through the route that is 100m to get into or out of the gulf. If you sink the aircraft carrier at that point, the depth will no longer be 100, its gonna become 30m, which means that many large tankers cant use the route anymore. So in a sense, you are blocking the strait partially, and cant use the route anymore.


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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> Exactly Arminkh Jan,
> 
> In a purely military sense, taking a ship out of service is what matters. After that, you can chose to do whatever you want such as take over it, sink it (as last resort) and so on. Downright sinking it and causing 1000's of casualties may force the adversary to do something desperate, including resorting to nuclear systems. This is especially relevant when dealing with trigger happy simpletons like Trump.
> 
> I recall an interview with the now current head of IRGC, Gen Salami where he said during a conflict they are not necessarily looking to sink the ships.


Sinking an American carrier won't lead to nuclear weapons launch on Iran unless Iran uses nukes. Just mean more bombings. You know conventional bombing kills more than nukes right?



Hack-Hook said:


> No it's not a bad idea . Look at the map ,straight of hormoz is the shallow one , the rest of the Persian Gulf is not that shallow.
> 
> By the way if a missile that size fail to sink a small ship like konarak ,you think how will be the damage against a *Ticonderoga* class ship ?
> 
> 
> Only if like usa leased catamaran the ship is made of aluminum or like our target ships of plywood.
> Against an steel or titanium made ship it probable explode at exterior of ship.



U.S. ships are mostly made of kevlar and steel. And it won't be as thick as battleships of the old. But there are alot of compartments. The Nimitz class and Ford class has hundreds of them, so its contains the blast. Thats why you have yet to see U.S. ships with big holes in them and not yet sunk in missile era. Whether USS Cole style or accidents or USS Stark. Makes it hard to sink them.


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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> Sinking an American carrier won't lead to nuclear weapons launch on Iran unless Iran uses nukes. Just mean more bombings. You know conventional bombing kills more than nukes right?



The context of that comment was regarding _mass casualties _in a single blow. If Iran sinks an aircraft carrier, that will potentially cause the death of 1000's of sailors. I do not buy this "only using nukes will cause nuclear retaliation". The humiliation and level of pressure on any sitting leader would be so much that the use of nuclear systems cannot be discarded. This is especially true when that leader is quick to rash decisions.

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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> The context of that comment was regarding _mass casualties _in a single blow. If Iran sinks an aircraft carrier, that will potentially cause the death of 1000's of sailors. I do not buy this "only using nukes will cause nuclear retaliation". The humiliation and level of pressure on any sitting leader would be so much that the use of nuclear systems cannot be discarded. This is especially true when that leader is quick to rash decisions.


Well then don't target the aircraft carriers then.


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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> Well then don't target the aircraft carriers then.



Well of course they will be targeted, they are a major source of power projection. My point was there is no need to _sink_ them. Target and take out of service, but do not sink.

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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> Well of course they will be targeted, they are a major source of power projection. My point was there is no need to _sink_ them. Target and take out of service, but do not sink.



Since we are talking about mass casualties, even a floating burning carrier will lead to mass casualties. You saw that during WW2 even when the carriers didn't sink. So as you said, that could lead to nuclear retaliation.


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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> Since we are talking about mass casualties, even a floating burning carrier will lead to mass casualties. You saw that during WW2 even when the carriers didn't sink. So as you said, that could lead to nuclear retaliation.



Sure, there will be casualties regardless. However I consider a serious difference between sinking a ship and potentially killing all on board and a more targeted strike that could lead to a fraction of those casualties. Far less pressure and humiliation involved there.

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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> Sure, there will be casualties regardless. However I consider a serious difference between sinking a ship and potentially killing all on board and a more targeted strike that could lead to a fraction of those casualties. Far less pressure and humiliation involved there.


Well whatever, try not to sink the carrier and you won't see nuclear mushrooms then if that helps. Keep the casualties to a minimum. Since if thousands are dead, Trump could still use nukes even if the carrier doesn't sink.


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## triangle

Crippling an aircraft carrier is much more feasable and politically less risky than completly sinking it. The naval exercise in 2015 against the famous carrier mock-up showed us that after the initial mass attack on the carrier, heliborne troops boarded the carrier presumably to take command of the carrier.

Now that the carrrier mock-up has been patched up and ready to be used again, it would be interesting to see if the military doctrine of crippling and capturing a carrier is still in place.

It would be quite the sight to see a crippled carrier being towed by a bunch of tugs to a harbor as a war throphy.

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## Dariush the Great

Oldman1 said:


> Well whatever, try not to sink the carrier and you won't see nuclear mushrooms then if that helps. Keep the casualties to a minimum. Since if thousands are dead, Trump could still use nukes even if the carrier doesn't sink.


dare to nuke us, we will launch thousands of missiles armed with bio chemical warhead to your illegitimate child in the middle east. after that we will come after you as well


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## triangle

Dariush the Great said:


> dare to nuke us, we will launch thousands of missiles armed with bio chemical warhead to your illegitimate child in the middle east. after that we will come after you as well




There really is no need for this kind of rhetoric nor is it realistic. Iran has build sufficient deterrence and A2/AD capability that no country would dare to attack it right on.

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## Philosopher

For those of you interested, here is one of the American ground based hypersonic missile solutions.












https://southfront.org/us-army-awards-two-key-hypersonic-missile-contracts/

Seems the world has woken up to the reality of ground based ballistic,hypersonic etc missiles as an offensive arm.

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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> For those of you interested, here is one of the American ground based hypersonic missile solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://southfront.org/us-army-awards-two-key-hypersonic-missile-contracts/
> 
> Seems the world has woken up to the reality of ground based missiles as an offensive arm.


Umm we had the Pershings and ground based tomahawks. Thats considered offensive weaponry.

You never know. To t


triangle said:


> Crippling an aircraft carrier is much more feasable and politically less risky than completly sinking it. The naval exercise in 2015 against the famous carrier mock-up showed us that after the initial mass attack on the carrier, heliborne troops boarded the carrier presumably to take command of the carrier.
> 
> Now that the carrrier mock-up has been patched up and ready to be used again, it would be interesting to see if the military doctrine of crippling and capturing a carrier is still in place.
> 
> It would be quite the sight to see a crippled carrier being towed by a bunch of tugs to a harbor as a war throphy.


You never know, Trump would rather nuke Iran than let a carrier being capture.


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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> Umm we had the Pershings and ground based tomahawks. Thats considered offensive weaponry.



I am focused more on the use ballistic or hypersonic type systems. It seems to me that in the past few decades, minus the Iranian IRGC, no other nation had been so after the use of such systems to that extend. Situation is starting to change now, nations have realised just how potent these systems can be. The old ways of waging wars is becoming quickly outdated.


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## Oldman1

Dariush the Great said:


> dare to nuke us, we will launch thousands of missiles armed with bio chemical warhead to your illegitimate child in the middle east. after that we will come after you as well


Umm after that you be long dead. Israel won't sit idle. You know they can hit you.



Philosopher said:


> I am focused more on the use ballistic or hypersonic type systems. It seems to me that in the past few decades, minus the Iranian IRGC, no other nation had been so after the use of such systems. Situation is starting to change now, nations have realised just how potent these systems can be. The old ways of waging wars is becoming quickly outdated.


Including China?

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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> Including China?



Chinese have a few systems, like the Russians. But when you look at the Iranian situation, for a long time its whole military doctrine was centred mostly around dozens of types of accurate ballistic systems. Furthermore, Iranians have time and again demonstrated the use of these systems. I am not saying Iran is solely responsible for the shift in the world perspective towards missiles, but it certainly played a big role. Here, if you get the time read the recent article by Uzi Rubin regarding this:

*Israel and the Precision-Guided Missile Threat*
*https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/israel-precision-guided-missiles/*​

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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> Chinese have a few systems, like the Russians. But when you look at the Iranian situation, for a long time its whole military doctrine was centred mostly around dozens of types of accurate ballistic systems. Furthermore, Iranians have time and again demonstrated the use of these systems. I am not saying Iran is solely responsible for the shift in the world perspective towards missiles, but it certainly played a big role. Here, if you get the time read the recent article by Uzi Rubin regarding this:
> 
> *Israel and the Precision-Guided Missile Threat*
> *https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/israel-precision-guided-missiles/*​


A few? More like thousands. Similar to Iran in dealing with the U.S. Navy in the whole Pacific Ocean.


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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> A few? More like thousands. Similar to Iran in dealing with the U.S. Navy in the whole Pacific Ocean.



I am talking in terms variety. The Chinese military doctrine was not and is not centred around conventional missiles. That's not to say they have not developed systems to be used, of course they have.


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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> I am talking in terms variety. The Chinese military doctrine was not and is not centred around conventional missiles. That's not to say they have not developed systems to be used, of course they have.


 Seriously, you need to check again. They have been building up their conventional missiles against our bases and naval vessels in the Pacific Ocean.


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## Philosopher

Oldman1 said:


> Seriously, you need to check again. They have been building up their conventional missiles against our bases and naval vessels in the Pacific Ocean.



I never said they did not have some variety of missiles, I said that is not the core of their defence doctrine unlike Iran.


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## TheImmortal

Philosopher said:


> I never said they did not have some variety of missiles, I said that is not the core of their defence doctrine unlike Iran.



I disagree.

Iran should learn from China in regards to their DF-17 short range solid fuel HGV equipped missile







Iran needs to equip HGV warhead to its Fateh series family. It would make the missile nearly impossible to intercept. Eventually it should be extrapolated to Sejill, Shahab-3 family missiles.

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## Philosopher

TheImmortal said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Iran should learn from China in regards to their DF-17 short range solid fuel HGV equipped missile
> 
> View attachment 644130
> 
> 
> Iran needs to equip HGV warhead to its Fateh series family. It would make the missile nearly impossible to intercept. Eventually it should be extrapolated to Sejill, Shahab-3 family missiles.



No disagreement there, Iran will inevitably develop these systems. I obviously cannot give a time frame. Given the level of importance missiles have in the overall IRGC doctrine, all of these hypersonic systems, from HGV to Scramjets will ultimately join Iran's arsenal. If I had to guess, I would say we are much closer to seeing an Iranian HGV than a scramjet cruise missiles. The point here was that overall, missiles play a more crucial role in Iran's conventional doctrine.

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## Hack-Hook

I think we are on different wavelength here . I say the missile right now can't sink a 300 ton ship and then people talk abou sinking Aircraft carrier with it.
there is no way around it , instead of going after compartment above ship. it must go and hit lower part of the ship if it wan't to sink anything.


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## TheImmortal

Hack-Hook said:


> I think we are on different wavelength here . I say the missile right now can't sink a 300 ton ship and then people talk abou sinking Aircraft carrier with it.
> there is no way around it , instead of going after compartment above ship. it must go and hit lower part of the ship if it wan't to sink anything.



How will aircraft carrier operate without its command tower? 

The goal of any missile attacking an aircraft carrier should be the command tower. Without a command tower it’s like a body without a head.

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## Hack-Hook

TheImmortal said:


> How will aircraft carrier operate without its command tower?
> 
> The goal of any missile attacking an aircraft carrier should be the command tower. Without a command tower it’s like a body without a head.


They operate because they have an auxiliary command center in the heart of the ship.


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## Philosopher

Not sure whether it will be missiles or not.

*Iran's IRGC to receive ‘surprise systems’ soon: Top general*
Saturday, 27 June 2020 10:30 AM 


Major General Hossein Salami, the chief commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC)
The chief commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) says the force is to receive “surprise systems” in the near future, stressing that a US bid to extend an arms embargo on Iran would have no effect on the country's defense capabilities. 

Major General Hossein Salami made the remarks in a news conference following his visit to an exhibition of the IRGC's achievements in Tehran on Saturday.

"There is a global arms embargo on Iran... on the other hand, the United States and its allies are among threats to Iran," he said.

The arms embargo, he said, provided "an opportunity for our scientists to fulfill defense needs using our domestic capability.”

Underlining the use of superior equipment that prepares Iran’s Armed Forces for a sophisticated war, Salami said work has been done both in terms of destruction and in terms of increasing accuracy, downsizing and unmanning weapons.

“Today, we are not dependent on foreigners for any of the weapons systems....and we have reached the stage of self-sufficiency and independence,” the commander pointed out.


"The ground forces have put technological surprise on the agenda and we will see the arrival of surprise systems in the near future."

Washington has stepped up calls for the extension of a UN arms embargo on Iran, which will expire in October under UN Security Council Resolution 2231, which endorses Iran nuclear deal, officially known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA).

The administration of US President Donald Trump has threatened that it may seek to trigger a snapback of all sanctions on Iran if its attempts to extend the arms embargo fail.


The landmark nuclear deal was reached between Iran and the P5+1 group of countries -- the US, Britain, France, Russia and China plus Germany -- in 2015. However, in May 2018, US President Trump unilaterally pulled his country out of the JCPOA and re-imposed the sanctions that had been lifted against Tehran and began unleashing the “toughest ever” fresh sanctions.

While the US is no longer a party to the JCPOA, it has launched a campaign to renew the Iran arms ban — in place since 2006/2007 -- through a resolution at the Security Council, but Russia and China are most likely to veto it.

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020...Major-General-Hossein-Salami-surprise-systems

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## Sina-1

Philosopher said:


> Not sure whether it will be missiles or not.
> 
> *Iran's IRGC to receive ‘surprise systems’ soon: Top general*
> Saturday, 27 June 2020 10:30 AM
> 
> 
> Major General Hossein Salami, the chief commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC)
> The chief commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) says the force is to receive “surprise systems” in the near future, stressing that a US bid to extend an arms embargo on Iran would have no effect on the country's defense capabilities.
> 
> Major General Hossein Salami made the remarks in a news conference following his visit to an exhibition of the IRGC's achievements in Tehran on Saturday.
> 
> "There is a global arms embargo on Iran... on the other hand, the United States and its allies are among threats to Iran," he said.
> 
> The arms embargo, he said, provided "an opportunity for our scientists to fulfill defense needs using our domestic capability.”
> 
> Underlining the use of superior equipment that prepares Iran’s Armed Forces for a sophisticated war, Salami said work has been done both in terms of destruction and in terms of increasing accuracy, downsizing and unmanning weapons.
> 
> “Today, we are not dependent on foreigners for any of the weapons systems....and we have reached the stage of self-sufficiency and independence,” the commander pointed out.
> 
> 
> "The ground forces have put technological surprise on the agenda and we will see the arrival of surprise systems in the near future."
> 
> Washington has stepped up calls for the extension of a UN arms embargo on Iran, which will expire in October under UN Security Council Resolution 2231, which endorses Iran nuclear deal, officially known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA).
> 
> The administration of US President Donald Trump has threatened that it may seek to trigger a snapback of all sanctions on Iran if its attempts to extend the arms embargo fail.
> 
> 
> The landmark nuclear deal was reached between Iran and the P5+1 group of countries -- the US, Britain, France, Russia and China plus Germany -- in 2015. However, in May 2018, US President Trump unilaterally pulled his country out of the JCPOA and re-imposed the sanctions that had been lifted against Tehran and began unleashing the “toughest ever” fresh sanctions.
> 
> While the US is no longer a party to the JCPOA, it has launched a campaign to renew the Iran arms ban — in place since 2006/2007 -- through a resolution at the Security Council, but Russia and China are most likely to veto it.
> 
> https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020...Major-General-Hossein-Salami-surprise-systems



wish list:
Unmanned-UCAV-Interceptor/hunter
Supersonic cruise missile
Innovative and state of the art fighter jet
Oghab SRAD

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## Shams313

Sina-1 said:


> wish list:
> Unmanned-UCAV-Interceptor/hunter
> Supersonic cruise missile
> Innovative and state of the art fighter jet
> Oghab SRAD


I smell new bomber drone....

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## Sina-1

Shams313 said:


> I smell new bomber drone....


Lol I knew I forget something. Of course a rather large HALE type stealthy flying wing bomber drone!

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## hussainb72

Shams313 said:


> I smell new bomber drone....





Sina-1 said:


> Lol I knew I forget something. Of course a rather large HALE type stealthy flying wing bomber drone!


It's probably the Shahed 149, the Iranian MQ9 that had been mentioned before.

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## TheImmortal

Sina-1 said:


> wish list:
> Unmanned-UCAV-Interceptor/hunter
> Supersonic cruise missile
> Innovative and state of the art fighter jet
> Oghab SRAD



He says “ground forces” which leads me to believe its accomplishments from IRGC ground forces branch.

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## Hack-Hook

Sina-1 said:


> wish list:
> Unmanned-UCAV-Interceptor/hunter
> Supersonic cruise missile
> Innovative and state of the art fighter jet
> Oghab SRAD


What about a cloaking device . I believe that will be the only surprising device.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cosmos...king-devices-move-one-step-closer/amp/?espv=1


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## maithil

Is this true ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277164208224944129


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## Buddhistforlife

The SiLent crY said:


> Zelzal 1
> The rockets were first exhibited in 1997 . ( produced in 1994 - 1995 ) .
> Iran designed zelzal 1 by using the technology of Chinese missiles B-611
> 
> Weight : 600 kg (Warhead) _ 2950 ( Total )
> 
> Length : 8.32 m
> 
> Width : 0.61 m
> 
> Range : 150 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zelzal 2
> 
> Weight : 3400 kg ( Total )
> 
> Range : 210 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zelzal 3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zelzal-3B
> 
> Weight : 3.6 - 3.87 tonnes depending on model
> 
> Length : 9 - 9.6 m depending on model
> 
> Diameter : 610 mm
> 
> Range : 200-250 km depending on model
> 
> Launch platform : Transporter erector launcher
> 
> In September 1999 Iran showed a new generation of it's Rockets called ( Zelzal 3 ) which had the range of 150 - 200 km .
> In 2001 , some unverified reports claimed that the rockets had been equipped with a simple inertial guidance system which increased the range to 400 km .
> 
> According to some reports , Iran has armed Hezbollah with theses Rockets also a huge number of them have been delivered to Syria .
> 
> *To be continued*


Is KhorramShahr missile under development or ready for operation?


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## Mithridates

Buddhistforlife said:


> Is KhorramShahr missile under development or ready for operation?


it's ready.


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## Blue In Green

maithil said:


> Is this true ?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277164208224944129



No I don't think so,


maithil said:


> Is this true ?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277164208224944129



No, I don't think this assessment makes much sense given that the amount of damage seen by satellites images does not generally support the idea that an entire underground missile base has been destroyed. We can clearly see that it was only a couple gas tanks that exploded leading to a fire spreading around the area burning some vegetation, that's the black blotches you see in the photo.

How one can come to the conclusion that an entire facility has been destroyed, all Shahabs stored there vaporized, and solid fuel production wiped-out is beyond me.

Seems as though the author of those tweets is trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill all things considered.

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## Mithridates

BlueInGreen2 said:


> No I don't think so,
> 
> 
> No, I don't think this assessment makes much sense given that the amount of damage seen by satellites images does not generally support the idea that an entire underground missile base has been destroyed. We can clearly see that it was only a couple gas tanks that exploded leading to a fire spreading around the area burning some vegetation, that's the black blotches you see in the photo.
> 
> How one can come to the conclusion that an entire facility has been destroyed, all Shahabs stored there vaporized, and solid fuel production wiped-out is beyond me.
> 
> Seems as though the author of those tweets is trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill all things considered.


seems like we produce two kind of liquid and solid fuel missiles in one site and store them over there. IRGC seems like do not have money for another base or like iran is so tiny that we don't have room for another base.

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## Buddhistforlife

Mithridates said:


> it's ready.


Why does Iran import most of its missile technology from North Korea? Why not China or Russia?


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## Mithridates

Buddhistforlife said:


> Why does Iran import most of its missile technology from North Korea? Why not China or Russia?


they don't give it?? also it's mutual, they use our products like solid engine rocket and missiles and even naval fajr-27/melara-76.


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## Buddhistforlife

Mithridates said:


> they don't give it?? also it's mutual, they use our products like solid engine rocket and missiles and even naval fajr-27/melara-76.


Saudi has missiles of much larger range than Iran I think possibly those are IRBMs from China. What is Iran doing to tackle Saudi missiles?


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## Mithridates

Buddhistforlife said:


> Saudi has missiles of much larger range than Iran I think possibly those are IRBMs from China. What is Iran doing to tackle Saudi missiles?


noting, what we can do?? also range does not matter while US bases are in range of our short range BMs.

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## Hack-Hook

Mithridates said:


> noting, what we can do?? also range does not matter while US bases are in range of our short range BMs.


the one I like to be in range isn't in range


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## Mithridates

Hack-Hook said:


> the one I like to be in range isn't in range


US??


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## Hack-Hook

Mithridates said:


> US??


don't care about that . the one i like in immediate future is Diego Garcia , the one I believe must be in range is Guam.

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## Muhammed45

Hack-Hook said:


> don't care about that . the one i like in immediate future is Diego Garcia , the one I believe must be in range is Guam.


Leave Guam to NK. 

Diego garcia is well within range of TVC Salman.

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## Hack-Hook

mohammad45 said:


> Leave Guam to NK.
> 
> Diego garcia is well within range of TVC Salman.


its in range but ,we still didn't field something that designed to do the job. and I'm old fashioned and when it come to defense prefer to be able to do the job myself. its good if others help ,but as a safeguard I must also be able to do it myself.

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## TheImmortal

maithil said:


> Is this true ?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277164208224944129



Do these idiots even bother to check video of said complexes?

Impossible since underground missile complexes have blast doors every X amount of distance to prevent chain reaction. So if they managed to detonate inside the underground complex there would be no fire escaping the complex because the closed blast doors would each contain everything inside.

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## Cthulhu

maithil said:


> Is this true ?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277164208224944129


This guy is a right-winger propagandist clown, He is usually busy cooking bullshit with his bodies in 
Prager "University".

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## triangle

It took exactly 4 months from the production of the booster till putting together of the whole missile

*P/N(production number?):M(P/F?)067-250
S/N(serial number):042
B/N(batch number):005
Date: 1397-07-14 (06-10-18)
Date of news item showing underground production facility: 07-02-19*

If serial number is total production amount then 42 produced in 4 months is 126 produced in one year. I think that this is the minimum annual production amount and the real production rate is higher.

On the 26th of may 2017 Hajizadeh proclaimed that a 3rd underground missile production facility has been built and that the Dezful missile will be produced in the 'near future'.
If the number 250 in *P/N(production number?):M(P/F?)067-250 *is the total amount of produced boosters and assuming a 1 booster per day production rate, we get february 2018 as a production start date, which is 8 months after Hajizadehs proclamation on 26th of may 2017 saying that they built the underground facility and that the Dezful will be produced in the 'near future'. 8 months is enough time in my opinion for an experienced missile producer to set up a such a production line as shown in the news items.

In my opinion we have a low rate figure of 126 and another figure of 365 per annum production. Which number is closer to the truth, we can only guess..

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## Blue In Green

triangle said:


> It took exactly 4 months from the production of the booster till putting together of the whole missile
> 
> *P/N(production number?):M(P/F?)067-250
> S/N(serial number):042
> B/N(batch number):005
> Date: 1397-07-14 (06-10-18)
> Date of news item showing underground production facility: 07-02-19*
> 
> If serial number is total production amount then 42 produced in 4 months is 126 produced in one year. I think that this is the minimum annual production amount and the real production rate is higher.
> 
> On the 26th of may 2017 Hajizadeh proclaimed that a 3rd underground missile production facility has been built and that the Dezful missile will be produced in the 'near future'.
> If the number 250 in *P/N(production number?):M(P/F?)067-250 *is the total amount of produced boosters and assuming a 1 booster per day production rate, we get february 2018 as a production start date, which is 8 months after Hajizadehs proclamation on 26th of may 2017 saying that they built the underground facility and that the Dezful will be produced in the 'near future'. 8 months is enough time in my opinion for an experienced missile producer to set up a such a production line as shown in the news items.
> 
> In my opinion we have a low rate figure of 126 and another figure of 365 per annum production. Which number is closer to the truth, we can only guess..



@PeeD

Very good post Triangle!

PeeD any thoughts on this or anything you wanted to add or refute?

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## PeeD

That carbon nozzle is exclusively for the Dezful.

P/N is part number but 5 batches with 42 nozzles produced in batch/lot 5 is of course a good number.

5*50 are 250 Dezful, although initial batches might have been smaller or later batches larger.

It gives a idea on the numbers.

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## skyshadow

*New Iranian Missile Could Strike Central Europe: Analysis*







https://breakingdefense.com/2020/06/new-iranian-missile-could-strike-central-europe-analysis/

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## GWXP

Maybe the purpose of Qased SLV which is launched by TEL is to quickly put camera into space (even in military environment) and take real-time pictures of enemy airfields in order to locate enemy aircrafts positions and target them with precise ballistic missiles

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## TruthHurtz

GWXP said:


> Maybe the purpose of Qased SLV which is launched by TEL is to quickly put camera into space (even in military environment) and take real-time pictures of enemy airfields in order to locate enemy aircrafts positions and target them with precise ballistic missiles



It's an experimental platform, its purpose is to test sub-components of future Iranians SLVs and missiles.

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## Muhammed45

TruthHurtz said:


> It's an experimental platform, its purpose is to test sub-components of future Iranians SLVs and missiles.


Maybe. But as IRGC general pointed out, they can inject satellites into the Orbit at optional angle. This was a huge achievement.

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## Arminkh

skyshadow said:


> *New Iranian Missile Could Strike Central Europe: Analysis*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://breakingdefense.com/2020/06/new-iranian-missile-could-strike-central-europe-analysis/


I don't understand these headlines. If the SLV was able to put a 50kg satellite in orbit that's orbiting the earth then a similar military version can strike anywhere on the planet by at least a 50kg warhead.

Is this a mass media technique to break the same conclusion into smaller pieces and announce it several times? I guess the next headline is Iran can strike US.

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## triangle

If we can assume a 1 fateh SRBM production rate per day since the introduction of the 1st generation fateh series in 2002, we can calculate the total amount produced to this day. Assuming several fateh class SRBM were/are being built at the same time we get a cumulative production run of 22 years and we arrive at the number of ~8000 fateh class SRBM produced till this day.

At the much quoted cost of $100.000 per fateh missile, this would add up to $803.000.000 or roughly $44.600.000 per year of SRBM production cost on average.

With this relatively low cost, one can imagine the total amount of produced fateh class missiles is easily higher than guesstimated here

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## Philosopher

It is a waste of time trying to deduce how many missiles Iran has produced, there are simple too many unknown variables. What we can say however is that Iran's missile program follows a very impressive trend in that as its systems get more advanced, the cost usually go down and not up. For example the Ra'ad-500 is more advanced than the Fateh-110 series in every way, but it costs half as much. Although I cannot comment on the actual number of Ra-ad they will produce, in theory it could be at minimum 2x the amount of Fateh. I would say it will be even more than that given the Ra'ad demands less in terms of size facilities required and so on.

Now I am awaiting for the Ra'ad technologies to be implemented into the Dezfoul missile to create a Ra'ad 1300/1400. That missile will be a game changer because it will allow Iran to directly target Israel using these cheap and easy to manufacture missiles.

I think it would be nice if we had a map showing us the full range of targets that Iran will potentially hit in a conflict and how far they are from Iran. I would say that vast majority will definitely fall in the range of the Dezfoul/Ra'ad 1300/1400.

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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> It is a waste of time trying to deduce how many missiles Iran has produced, there are simple too many unknown variables. What we can say however is that Iran's missile program follows a very impressive trend in that as its systems get more advanced, the cost usually go down and not up. For example the Ra'ad-500 is more advanced than the Fateh-110 series in every way, but it costs half as much. Although I cannot comment on the actual number of Ra-ad they will produce, in theory it could be at minimum 2x the amount of Fateh. I would say it will be even more than that given the Ra'ad demands less in terms of size facilities required and so on.
> 
> Now I am awaiting for the Ra'ad technologies to be implemented into the Dezfoul missile to create a Ra'ad 1300/1400. That missile will be a game changer because it will allow Iran to directly target Israel using these cheap and easy to manufacture missiles.
> 
> I think it would be nice if we had a map showing us the full range of targets that Iran will potentially hit in a conflict and how far they are from Iran. I would say that vast majority will definitely fall in the range of the Dezfoul/Ra'ad 1300/1400.



With Fateh class I mean from Fateh-110(A?) 1st gen al the way to the Dezful and the recent ra'ad-500. That's a cumulative production run of ~22-23 years.

Because of the rapid enhancement of the Fateh class missiles there is no reason to produce the previous iteration anymore, especially during the whole 1st to 4th gen series. The way I presume this is as follows: Fateh-110A,B,C,D have had a production run from 2002 to 2015. That's 13 years of production. The Fateh-313 introduced in 2015 improved range through separating warhead and I presume just now stopped being produced with the arrival of the ra'ad-500. That's 5 years of production. The Zolfaghar I presume is recently stopped or very near to stopping being produced. That's ~3-4 years production. The Dezful is being produced I presume since 2018, and the ra'ad-500 less than a year. So rough estimate according to the above calculation we get ~8000 (+/- 500 for the ARM and ASHBM variants) Fateh class SRBM as of today.

Yes I know alot of presumptions and guessing but hey, that's what makes it interesting for us enthusiasts..

TBH, ~8000 Fateh class missiles for $800.000.000 is peanuts for Iran even if you double the amount of dollars to $1.6 billion for the total cost of production and storage facilities, TEL's (assume 1 TEL for 10 missiles), maintenance, etc.

It just goes to show you how much Fateh class missiles Iran might really have, that is if they have the room to spare..

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## skyshadow

*The IRGC will unveil a missile system in the coming days.*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278234841188835328

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## Philosopher

skyshadow said:


> *The IRGC will unveil a missile system in the coming days.*
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278234841188835328



It could be:

1- Ra'ad-1300/1400 system
2- Oghab air defence
3- A supersonic cruise missile

Or something completely different (most likely).

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## triangle

With a more precise calculation I arrive at ~9500 Fateh class SRBM produced in 26 cumulative years. Assuming for every 4 Fateh class missile, 1 MRBM (from Shahab 3 to the Khorramshahr) produced we get ~2400 missiles. Combined we get ~11900 BM's without the SRBM Qiam. For one Qiam (2010 entry into service) we assume 3 Fateh class SRBM which amounts to ~1200.

9500+2400+1200=~13100 BM's

If one MRBM for every 3 Fateh SRBM, then ~3100 and one Qiam for every 2.5 Fateh, then ~1500. 9500+3100+1500=~14100 BM's

So anywhere between 12000 and 16000 BM's

Total production cost assuming $100.000 for Fateh and $400.000 for MRBM and Qiam: ~$5.5 billion total production cost over the course of ~20 years. Assuming another $5.5 billion for the facilities, tunnels, silo's, R&D, TEL's, training etc, is $11 billion over 20 years. Spending ~$0.55 billion per year on average for the core of Iran's defense power and doctrine is doable.

Feel free to discuss this and look if it fits in the defense budget of Iran's armed forces


Philosopher said:


> It could be:
> 
> 1- Ra'ad-1300/1400 system
> 2- Oghab air defence
> 3- A supersonic cruise missile
> 
> Or something completely different (most likely).



4. The spike-like missile we have seen a test footage of recently

I'm hoping on either a SAM or BM

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## Messerschmitt

triangle said:


> With a more precise calculation I arrive at ~9500 Fateh class SRBM produced in 26 cumulative years. Assuming for every 4 Fateh class missile, 1 MRBM (from Shahab 3 to the Khorramshahr) produced we get ~2400 missiles. Combined we get ~11900 BM's without the SRBM Qiam. For one Qiam (2010 entry into service) we assume 3 Fateh class SRBM which amounts to ~1200.
> 
> 9500+2400+1200=~13100 BM's
> 
> If one MRBM for every 3 Fateh SRBM, then ~3100 and one Qiam for every 2.5 Fateh, then ~1500. 9500+3100+1500=~14100 BM's
> 
> So anywhere between 12000 and 16000 BM's
> 
> Total production cost assuming $100.000 for Fateh and $400.000 for MRBM and Qiam: ~$5.5 billion total production cost over the course of ~20 years. Assuming another $5.5 billion for the facilities, tunnels, silo's, R&D, TEL's, training etc, is $11 billion over 20 years. Spending ~$0.55 billion per year on average for the core of Iran's defense power and doctrine is doable.
> 
> Feel free to discuss this and look if it fits in the defense budget of Iran's armed forces
> 
> 
> 4. The spike-like missile we have seen a test footage of recently
> 
> I'm hoping on either a SAM or BM


Last year I did some research on Iranian ballistic missile serial numbers that can be seen in pictures and videos released to the public and it led me to the assumption that the IRGC-ASF had atleast ~800 Ghadr missiles at that time, of which most where Ghadr-Hs and the rest mostly consisting of Ghadr-Fs.

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## Philosopher

*IRGC to unveil new missile system in September: general*

TEHRAN — Brigadier General Bahman Kargar has announced plans to unveil a new missile system by the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) in the coming months.

Kargar said the missile system will be unveiled during the Sacred Defense Week, which commemorates the anniversary of Iraq’s imposed war against Iran, IRNA reported.

“Due to the spread of the coronavirus, some of the programs of this ceremony will be held through video conferencing,” he explained.

September 21 marks the beginning of Sacred Defense Week in Iran. Each year, the ceremony is marked by military parades. This year, Iran commemorates the 40th anniversary of the war.

MH/PA

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/449506/IRGC-to-unveil-new-missile-system-in-September-general

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## skyshadow

*last second Iranian missile warhead making crazy maneuvers in air


1. enemy radar will think warhead is going to move straight ahead








2. but No, warhead changes course making more then 90 degrees and hit somewhere else entirely with mach 13-15 speeds







3. and remember this is only last second maneuver guess what it can do when its higher up












*

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## TheImmortal

It appears Iran was telling the truth. Even if it was sabatoge (no clear signs) it was low grade attack basically manipulating a gas tank. More a nuisance than anything. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279045052170473472

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1279718419278036994

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## Philosopher

*Iran operates underground missile cities along southern shores: IRGC commander*

Iran’s Armed Forces have developed underground missile cities along the country’s entire southern shores, including the Persian Gulf and the Sea of Oman, says the commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Navy.

Brigadier General Alireza Tangsiri made the remarks in a detailed interview whose text was published on Sunday, noting that such cities accommodate both naval vessels and missiles.

“We [in the Iranian Armed Forces] have underground cities, which house both vessels and missiles,” the commander said, adding, “Our entire shoreline [in southern Iran] is equipped with [various types of] arms.”

Tangsiri emphasized, “Our shoreline is equipped with weapons and there is no chanting about it.”

He noted that the IRGC Navy has formed a marine Basij force, which is positioned along a 2,200-km coastline (excluding the Iranian islands), and so far 428 flotillas, including more than 23,000 military personnel, have been organized.

The enemy knows that there are underground cities belonging to the Army and the IRGC along the Persian Gulf and Makran coasts, but it has no accurate information in that regard, he said.

“But another thing I am going to say [to enemies] with certainty is that we are present everywhere in the Persian Gulf and the Sea of Oman and ... in places you cannot even imagine. We are your nightmare,” Tangsiri added.

He emphasized that the IRGC Navy has full information command in the Persian Gulf and is precisely aware of and monitors the location of every ship from its entrance through the Strait of Hormuz to its exit.

“This is not just a slogan. We have long-range missiles and they [enemies] should wait to hear further news about long-range missiles and vessels they cannot even imagine.”

The IRGC’s chief commander Major General Hossein Salami warned in April that the Islamic Republic will target American vessels if they were to threaten the safety of the country’s vessels or warships.

We declare to them that we are absolutely determined and serious in defending our national security, maritime borders and interests, and that any move [against us] will be effectively and swiftly met with a decisive, effective response,” Salami said.

Later in May, the IRGC Navy had an incident with US forces in the Persian Gulf as they entered a drill area despite having been warned in advance not to approach.

Tangsiri said US forces will be pursued in the Persian Gulf and Sea of Oman. “They had entered our training area while it had already been announced that drills would be held there ... hence, they were ordered to leave.”

The US Navy Central Command has earlier alleged that 11 IRGC vessels had “harassed” up to six US ships in the Persian Gulf.

The claims were rejected as “baseless” by Iranian officials.

The IRGC issued a statement describing the American allegations as “Hollywood tales,” detailing that the incident happened after an American vessel repeatedly harassed an Iranian boat.

https://www.tehrantimes.com/

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## Myself

Philosopher said:


> *IRGC to unveil new missile system in September: general*
> 
> TEHRAN — Brigadier General Bahman Kargar has announced plans to unveil a new missile system by the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) in the coming months.
> 
> Kargar said the missile system will be unveiled during the Sacred Defense Week, which commemorates the anniversary of Iraq’s imposed war against Iran, IRNA reported.
> 
> “Due to the spread of the coronavirus, some of the programs of this ceremony will be held through video conferencing,” he explained.
> 
> September 21 marks the beginning of Sacred Defense Week in Iran. Each year, the ceremony is marked by military parades. This year, Iran commemorates the 40th anniversary of the war.
> 
> MH/PA
> 
> https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/449506/IRGC-to-unveil-new-missile-system-in-September-general


Ghadir is still missing! Long range solid fuel:


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## Shawnee



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## Philip the Arab

@Mithridates 
@Philosopher 
Do you guys think that very fast traveling missiles can beat APS systems? If an ATGM is traveling at 1200 meters per second is it invulnerable to APS reacting quick enough?

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## Philosopher

Philip the Arab said:


> @Mithridates
> @Philosopher
> Do you guys think that very fast traveling missiles can beat APS systems? If an ATGM is traveling at 1200 meters per second is it invulnerable to APS reacting quick enough?



If the projectile is fast enough and/or close enough then naturally it can overcome the reaction time of the APS. Modern active protection systems can defeat systems faster than the 1200m/s you mentioned. For example, the Russian Afghanit system can intercept targets at speed of 1700m/s currently and in the future they are planning to increase that to 3000m/s.



> The nearest line of interception of missiles, shells or rocket-propelled grenades is 15-20 meters, and the maximum speed of interception of armor-piercing sub-caliber shells is 1700 m / s. In the future, it is planned to install an even more advanced Barrier protection system on Armata. It will already be able to intercept targets flying at speeds from 2500 to 3000 m / s.


https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201411211239-uvb5.htm

There are many ways of defeating APS. Not mentioning the saturation attacks, other ways are using anti-tank systems with precursor rounds such as RPG-30:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-30

You can naturally target tanks from their unprotected regions. Furthermore, you can target the APS itself using kinetic and non-kinetic means such as E-magnetic disruptions:



> Another promising concept generates directed, far-distance electromagnetic effects defeating sensors and communications systems of modern main battle tanks. After such a mission kill, a following salvo attack through an anti-tank or modern multi-role weapon will eventually lead to a catastrophic kill. Feasibility studies of these mobile electromagnetic effectors have already shown their high potential.



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338411502_Defeating_Modern_Armor_and_Protection_Systems

These lists are not comprehensive.

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## Mithridates

Philip the Arab said:


> @Mithridates
> @Philosopher
> Do you guys think that very fast traveling missiles can beat APS systems? If an ATGM is traveling at 1200 meters per second is it invulnerable to APS reacting quick enough?


sorry, i don't know bro.

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## Philip the Arab

Mithridates said:


> sorry, i don't know bro.


I was wondering, because the US was developing a mach 4.3 ATGM that weighed 30kg and I think that it would be a APS killer in modern combat. I don't think it would be possible to intercept a missile going that fast with Israeli APS system. It would basically be a ATGM with a kinetic warhead.

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## Mithridates

Philip the Arab said:


> I was wondering, because the US was developing a mach 4.3 ATGM that weighed 30kg and I think that it would be a APS killer in modern combat. I don't think it would be possible to intercept a missile going that fast with Israeli APS system. It would basically be a ATGM with a kinetic warhead.


well that would be 4 time faster than existing anti tank missiles. i don't know how APS work and if they calculate the projectile speed too or simply rely on the information on where the missile is and if it's close enough, they counter it. if the case is the second one it can penetrate through APS. also what possibly APS can do to a 30 kg projectile traveling at mach 4??

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## Philip the Arab

Mithridates said:


> well that would be 4 time faster than existing anti tank missiles. i don't know how APS work and if they calculate the projectile speed too or simply rely on the information on where the missile is and if it's close enough, they counter it. if the case is the second one it can penetrate through APS. also what possibly APS can do to a 30 kg projectile traveling at mach 4??


It is basically a 120mm M829 Sabot ATGM, I don't think there is much that could be done to counter it. Russians are probably lying about their capabilities as even the Israelis can't counter a fast APFSDS.

Now fired at far ranges maybe if the radar detects it early, but probably within a kilometer or two the tank can't react quick enough.

It would look something like this, it just seems to fast to counter in my opinion.

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## Iskander



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## zectech

*CIA spy executed: Iran Judiciary*





TEHRAN, Jul. 14 (MNA) – Iran’s Judiciary Spokesman Gholam Hossein Esmaeili said that an individual, a Defense Ministry retiree, was executed last week due to his spying for the CIA.

Speaking in his weekly presser on Tuesday, he said that Reza Asgari, a retiree of Defense Ministry’s aerospace has been executed after the ruling was issued by the related court.

Esmaeili said that the individual had worked for many years in the Ministry and had been linked with CIA during the final years of his tenure and after retirement, selling some data relating to the country’s missile program to the American intelligence service.

Iran is serious about its security issues, the spokesman highlighted.

In early June, the spokesman said that another spy linked with foreign intelligence services has also been sentenced to death. “Recently an individual named Seyyed Mahmoud Mousavi Majd, who had been connected with Mossad and CIA services and had collected and transmitted intelligence on the location of Martyr General Soleimani, has been given a death sentence by the Islamic Revolution Court.”

-----

Every AShM, BM, AAM, CM and/or SAM that this traitor/moron had access to is now defeated easily by electronic warfare. Everything this traitor knew about has to be updated and upgraded.

Remember the rumor that the spydrone was used to learn the operational usage of 3rd Khordad, that it was a ploy to find weaknesses in the ADS of Iran.

This loss of missile secrets is many fold worse, you need to potentially go through tens of thousands of missiles and change them.

Why do you think they wanted Iran's missile secrets in the first place, to devise an attack to defeat them. Most likely a electronic warfare attack or ECM to be exact.

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## TheImmortal

zectech said:


> *CIA spy executed: Iran Judiciary*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TEHRAN, Jul. 14 (MNA) – Iran’s Judiciary Spokesman Gholam Hossein Esmaeili said that an individual, a Defense Ministry retiree, was executed last week due to his spying for the CIA.
> 
> Speaking in his weekly presser on Tuesday, he said that Reza Asgari, a retiree of Defense Ministry’s aerospace has been executed after the ruling was issued by the related court.
> 
> Esmaeili said that the individual had worked for many years in the Ministry and had been linked with CIA during the final years of his tenure and after retirement, selling some data relating to the country’s missile program to the American intelligence service.
> 
> Iran is serious about its security issues, the spokesman highlighted.
> 
> In early June, the spokesman said that another spy linked with foreign intelligence services has also been sentenced to death. “Recently an individual named Seyyed Mahmoud Mousavi Majd, who had been connected with Mossad and CIA services and had collected and transmitted intelligence on the location of Martyr General Soleimani, has been given a death sentence by the Islamic Revolution Court.”
> 
> -----
> 
> Every AShM, BM, AAM, CM and/or SAM that this traitor/moron had access to is now defeated easily by electronic warfare. Everything this traitor knew about has to be updated and upgraded.
> 
> Remember the rumor that the spydrone was used to learn the operational usage of 3rd Khordad, that it was a ploy to find weaknesses in the ADS of Iran.
> 
> This loss of missile secrets is many fold worse, you need to potentially go through tens of thousands of missiles and change them.
> 
> Why do you think they wanted Iran's missile secrets in the first place, to devise an attack to defeat them. Most likely a electronic warfare attack or ECM to be exact.



That’s not how things work. He was a single engineer so he wouldn’t have access to as many systems as you allude.

Furthermore, he was likely only about to turn over information that he had access to. Meaning his level of clearance and within the scope of his authority and projects.

It’s not like an engineer who builds anti tank missiles can go into the database and pull information on Bavar 373 battle management systems. If he tries to the system would flag it as suspicious and alert the higher ups.

I am assuming that Iran has such a system in place.

Lastly, Iran had an engineer unsuccessfully (stopped at airport) smuggle F-35 engine blueprints. That doesn’t mean US needs to replace F-35 and F-22.

These types of things happen. I wouldn’t over exaggerate the threat at this point.

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## Philosopher

@PeeD What are on your thoughts on the below analysis:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284095571561721856
To my mind, the small mockup could potentially be a different system to what we have heard about till date. It could be a candidate for a fully ramjet system. Admiral Khanzali talked about supersonic systems using turbofan engine. That missile could be a purely supersonic system or one that is subsonic and then increases speed to supersonic in its terminal stage (using same turbofan engine). We initially thought the missile he referred to could be similar to a Klub like systems using jet engine+solid fuel, but given how he emphasised the turbofan in the supersonic context, I think the previous scenarios are more likely. Looking at the mockup, I get the feeling it is a separate system and a fully ramjet one. I could be missing something but I am not seeing evidence of it being a tandem design, given the position of the intakes, it looks too similar to a pure ramjet system:

For comparison:

Chinese CM-302:






Taiwanese HF-3:






Russian KH-31:






Obviously we are going by very little details and a low resolution picture, but I am leaning towards there being multiple Iranian projects in the works.

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## PeeD

Philosopher said:


> @PeeD What are on your thoughts on the below analysis:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284095571561721856
> To my mind, the small mockup could potentially be a different system to what we have heard about till date. It could be a candidate for a fully ramjet system. Admiral Khanzali talked about supersonic systems using turbofan engine. That missile could be a purely supersonic system or one that is subsonic and then increases speed to supersonic in its terminal stage (using same turbofan engine). We initially thought the missile he referred to could be similar to a Klub like systems using jet engine+solid fuel, but given how he emphasised the turbofan in the supersonic context, I think the previous scenarios are more likely. Looking at the mockup, I get the feeling it is a separate system and a fully ramjet one. I could be missing something but I am not seeing evidence of it being a tandem design, given the position of the intakes, it looks too similar to a pure ramjet system:
> 
> For comparison:
> 
> Chinese CM-302:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taiwanese HF-3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian KH-31:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously we are going by very little details and a low resolution picture, but I am leaning towards there being multiple Iranian projects in the works.



What you say is possible, yes. However note that you would need a very powerful turbofan with an afterburner to reach more than mach 2.
Basically none of the players have gone for such a solution (Russia, China).

Also note how short the intakes are on the Iranian missile, it would not make sense to place them that forward if it wasn't a tandem design.

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## Philosopher

PeeD said:


> What you say is possible, yes. However note that you would need a very powerful turbofan with an afterburner to reach more than mach 2.
> Basically none of the players have gone for such a solution (Russia, China).
> 
> Also note how short the intakes are on the Iranian missile, it would not make sense to place them that forward if it wasn't a tandem design.



Thank you for the comment, I think regardless of the exact details of the systems, one things is for sure and that is Iranian anti-ship are entering an entirely new level in terms of capability. God willing we will also hear about future scramjet projects.

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## TruthHurtz

PeeD said:


> What you say is possible, yes. However note that you would need a very powerful turbofan with an afterburner to reach more than mach 2.
> Basically none of the players have gone for such a solution (Russia, China).
> 
> Also note how short the intakes are on the Iranian missile, it would not make sense to place them that forward if it wasn't a tandem design.



I thought you were Patarmesh

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## triangle

TruthHurtz said:


> I thought you were Patarmesh



You are offtopic, flamebaiting and attempting to derail the thread


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## TruthHurtz

triangle said:


> You are offtopic, flamebaiting and attempting to derail the thread



No I'm not peanutbrain. I genuinely thought @PeeD was Patarmesh. How is that in anyway flamebaiting and a deliberate attempt to derail the thread?

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## triangle

TruthHurtz said:


> No I'm not peanutbrain. I genuinely thought @PeeD was Patarmesh. How is that in anyway flamebaiting and a deliberate attempt to derail the thread?



Because I thought the same and my comment about it was deleted for '_Offtopic discussion, flamebait,attempt to derail the thread_'


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## TruthHurtz

triangle said:


> Because I thought the same and my comment about it was deleted for '_Offtopic discussion, flamebait,attempt to derail the thread_'



Oh sorry. Thought you were trying to assert authority or something lol


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## TheImmortal

TruthHurtz said:


> Oh sorry. Thought you were trying to assert authority or something lol





triangle said:


> Because I thought the same and my comment about it was deleted for '_Offtopic discussion, flamebait,attempt to derail the thread_'

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## Sineva

*****WARNING ZIONIST SOURCE****
*
This ones actually quite funny....
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/i...-28-new-hezbollah-missile-launch-sites-634911
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/i...-28-new-hezbollah-missile-launch-sites-634911
Aaannnnd heres the tweet debunking it.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282874619855204352I especially liked the part about one of the supposed missile launching sites being at a recycling center that ANYONE can go and visit or even arrange a tour of....

Is it just me or do the zionists seem to be getting more and more desperate as time goes by?.

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## Buddhistforlife

As per wikipedia Iran has intermediate range ballistic missile which is Shahab-5. What is the truth?

@Philosopher


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## TheImmortal

Buddhistforlife said:


> View attachment 655531
> 
> 
> As per wikipedia Iran has intermediate range ballistic missile which is Shahab-5. What is the truth?
> 
> @Philosopher



Rumors about a Shahab-4 and Shahab-5 have existed since early 2000’s. Project likely existed in some preliminary research form, but never made it to mass production.

Iran pivoted away from liquid fuel and to the more advanced solid fuel with the Fateh and Sejil family.

Thus Shahab family has long been discontinued and future Iranian IRBM and ICBM will likely use solid fuel engines being tested at Sharoud Missile facility.

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## Draco.IMF

"new", underground launched missile, I think never seen before as of yet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288404719170392064

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## Blue In Green

@PeeD 

Bro your assistance in breaking this down would be greatly appreciated

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## Sineva

Draco.IMF said:


> "new", underground launched missile, I think never seen before as of yet
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288404719170392064


You`re right.These clearly look to be solid fueled quasi-ballistics judging by the angle of launch,this is totally different to the underground missile base silo launches of liquid fueled missiles that we`ve seen previously.
If anything it reminds me somewhat of the same sort of principle of the old underground us mx missile trains with a breakthru onto the surface and a launch,tho this looks more like its being fired from a shallow tunnel possibly just under the subsurface judging from all of the soil being ejected by the motor ignition.
The beauty of this launch mode is that it would give us and gulfie forces in the region far,far less warning of any iranian launch preparations or impending launches.
Very,very interesting.

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## QWECXZ

Draco.IMF said:


> "new", underground launched missile, I think never seen before as of yet
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288404719170392064

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


>



Did you see the satellite photo!?!


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## QWECXZ

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Did you see the satellite photo!?!


No. Which satellite photo?


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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> No. Which satellite photo?


lmao, brb I'm going to compile a bunch of things from telegram

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## Blue In Green



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## PeeD

BlueInGreen2 said:


> @PeeD
> 
> Bro your assistance in breaking this down would be greatly appreciated



Well, new subsystems like electromechanical actuators have allowed putting Fateh family series in a sealed container for many years, instantly ready for launch.

They are buried and covered to create a very difficult detectable and attackable launch method.

Smart and low cost basing option with all the benefits of a AshBM in terms of range, time of arrival and terminal speed.

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## Blue In Green

First image is of the satellite imagery apparently!!!

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## triangle

Some AN/TPY-2 radar target practice I guess.

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## Blue In Green

https://****/Arteshban/18930






New Finless missile? also launch footage of missile from drum like canister was suspiciously fast!!

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## QWECXZ

BlueInGreen2 said:


> View attachment 656634


Finally! Why mashreghnews hasn't released it yet? 

Now can someone please give more explanations about this?
It seems that the resolution is not better than 100m times 100m though.


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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> Finally! Why mashreghnews hasn't released it yet?
> 
> Now can someone please give more explanations about this?
> It seems that the resolution is not better than 100m times 100m though.



It seems like Iran just showed yet another new FATEH variant!!

Also guys please watch the Arteshban video, it will reveal all that you need to know.


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## QWECXZ

BlueInGreen2 said:


> It seems like Iran just showed yet another new FATEH variant!!
> 
> Also guys please watch the Arteshban video, it will reveal all that you need to know.


Can you share the link?


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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> Can you share the link?



https://****/Arteshban/18930

https://****/imamedia_org/250

You'll see some sort of fast FATEH being launched from a rather big cylindrical canister. I have never seen this before.

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## QWECXZ

BlueInGreen2 said:


> https://****/Arteshban/18930
> 
> https://****/imamedia_org/250


I don't have a Telegram account.  Is it available on YouTube too? Or could you embed it here if it's possible?

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> I don't have a Telegram account.  Is it available on YouTube too? Or could you embed it here if it's possible?



hmm....I might just upload them to my youtube

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> I don't have a Telegram account.  Is it available on YouTube too? Or could you embed it here if it's possible?



Uploading to youtube now

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> I don't have a Telegram account.  Is it available on YouTube too? Or could you embed it here if it's possible?



Here you go

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## QWECXZ

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Here you go


Thank you, brother. 

Is this the one by Arteshban? I think you had sent this one before. xD

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> Thank you, brother.
> 
> Is this the one by Arteshban? I think you had sent this one before. xD



lol, I just realized this very video was posted by Triangle XD.

I got too excited

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## yavar



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## Muhammed45

Holy moly, this is huge. 





فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه با بیان اینکه برای اولین بار در دنیا شلیک موشک‌های بالستیک از اعماق زمین انجام شده است، گفت: این پرتاب‌ها بدون داشتن سکو و تجهیزات مرسوم انجام می‌شود.

به گزارش مشرق، سردار امیرعلی حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی در حاشیه برگزاری چهاردهمین رزمایش پیامبر اعظم(ص) سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی در خلیج فارس و غرب تنگه هرمز، اظهار داشت: برای اولین بار در دنیا شلیک موشک‌های بالستیک از اعماق زمین انجام شده است.

وی افزود: این پرتاب‌ها بدون داشتن سکو و تجهیزات مرسوم انجام شده است و موشک‌های مدفون شده به یکباره زمین را می‌شکافند و اهداف خود را مورد اصابت قرار می‌دهند.

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## Muhammed45



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## Blue In Green

mohammad45 said:


> Holy moly, this is huge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه با بیان اینکه برای اولین بار در دنیا شلیک موشک‌های بالستیک از اعماق زمین انجام شده است، گفت: این پرتاب‌ها بدون داشتن سکو و تجهیزات مرسوم انجام می‌شود.
> 
> به گزارش مشرق، سردار امیرعلی حاجی‌زاده فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی در حاشیه برگزاری چهاردهمین رزمایش پیامبر اعظم(ص) سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی در خلیج فارس و غرب تنگه هرمز، اظهار داشت: برای اولین بار در دنیا شلیک موشک‌های بالستیک از اعماق زمین انجام شده است.
> 
> وی افزود: این پرتاب‌ها بدون داشتن سکو و تجهیزات مرسوم انجام شده است و موشک‌های مدفون شده به یکباره زمین را می‌شکافند و اهداف خود را مورد اصابت قرار می‌دهند.



Translation bro?


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## Muhammed45

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Translation bro?


The commander of the IRGC aerospace Forces, stating that for the first time in the world, ballistic missiles were fired from the depths of the earth, said: "These launches are carried out without conventional platforms and equipment."

According to Mashreq, Sardar Amir Ali Hajizadeh, Commander of the Air Force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, on the sidelines of the 14th exercise of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in the Persian Gulf and west of the Strait of Hormuz, said: For the first time in the world, ballistic missiles were fired from underground.

He added: "These launches were carried out without the usual platform and equipment, and the buried missiles suddenly split the ground and hit their targets."

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288424103880224768

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## Messerschmitt



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## yavar



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## Philosopher

Iran's supremacy in the Persian Gulf region is without question, this now needs to be maintained. The Americans fully understand how utterly absurd the idea of leaving their fleet anywhere near the Persian Gulf in the case of conflict is. This was not always the case, I recall about a decade ago they thought their navy could stay in the Persian Gulf during war. Today, they would not even dream of it. 

Our main focus going forward should be to greatly expand our A2/AD against surface vessels to the 2500/3000km range. In the future, we will see miniaturised and compact Sejill ranged MRBM just like how we are seeing the Fateh class today. We are getting there with the likes of Defzoul missiles. Imagine 100's of compact Antiship MRBMs in canisters buried underground ready to be fired.

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## Iskander

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288432762827862019

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## Blue In Green

Philosopher said:


> Iran's supremacy in the Persian Gulf region is without question, this now needs to be maintained. The Americans fully understand how utterly absurd the idea of leaving their fleet anywhere near the Persian Gulf in the case of conflict is. This was not always the case, I recall about a decade ago they thought their navy could stay in the Persian Gulf during war. Today, they would not even dream of it.
> 
> Our main focus going forward should be to greatly expand our A2/AD against surface vessels to the 2500/3000km range. In the future, we will see miniaturised and compact Sejill ranged MRBM just like how we are seeing the Fateh class today. We are getting there with the likes of Defzoul missiles. Imagine 100's of compact Antiship MRBMs in canisters buried underground ready to be fired.



Iran has been hard at work setting up underground "missile farms" bases and other means of launching for years now and we're only seeing a small part of it. Personally I would like to see more 2+ missile TELS for the FATEHs

Iran's missile deployments around the country must truly be huge in scope...

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## Philosopher

*IRGC Practices Crippling US’ THAAD System*

*TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The IRGC forces have successfully exercised an operation to incapacitate the US’ THAAD missile defense system in the course of a massive war game in southern Iran, a top commander said.*
Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh said on Wednesday that his forces have practiced tactics to defeat the enemy’s missile shield and destroy its air defense missile systems in the Payambar-e Azam 14 (The Great Prophet) war game, underway in Iran’s southern province of Hormozgan, western parts of the Strait of Hormuz, and the Persian Gulf.

The IRGC forces established a missile system mirroring the capabilities of Theater High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD), and targeted the anti-ballistic defense system with radar-evading missiles, he said.

The commander also noted that the IRGC Aerospace Force’s combat drones have destroyed targets from a far distance with great accuracy, including the command bridge of the replica of a US aircraft carrier.

Sukhoi-22 fighter jets also destroyed targets with a small cross-sectional area using winged bombs, General Hajizadeh added.

“With the facilities in our possession, we can hit any hostile target at any location in the Persian Gulf region, the Sea of Oman, and the Indian Ocean,” he went on to say.

On Wednesday morning, the IRGC fired a series of ballistic missiles from launch pads hidden in camouflage deep under the ground.

The final stage of the war game includes joint operations by missile units, vessels and drones from the IRGC Navy and missile, drone and radar units from the IRGC Aerospace Force.

Satellite images taken by Iran’s homegrown ‘Noor’ (light) satellite that was launched into space in April have been used to evaluate the situation in the war game zone.

https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/07/29/2317192/irgc-practices-crippling-us-thaad-system

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288469815527694342

شاید روسیه و چین ؟
...

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## Hashirama

Shawnee said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288469815527694342
> 
> شاید روسیه و چین ؟
> ...


What does it mean? I don't know farsi


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## Mithridates

QWECXZ said:


> اینطور که بوش میاد سرکار رفتیم. اگر هم قرار باشه سرکار رفته باشیم خیلی به جاهای دیگه دلخوش نکن و احتمالاً از ساده ترین جا تصاویر رو گرفتن. جایی مثل گوگل ارث یا همین حدود​


tasavir hararati chi?? google hamchin mahvare e dare??


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## Mithridates

QWECXZ said:


> کدوم تصاویر حرارتی؟
> شاید من اشتباه می کنم، اما فکر کنم اون تصاویری که ما دیدیم که شبیه هیت مپ بودن تصاویری بودن که اختلاف دو تا عکس گرفته شده در زمان های مختلف رو نشون می داد و با الگوریتم های پردازش تصویر به راحتی قابل به دست اومدن هستن
> در واقع برداشت من از اون تصاویر این بود که دو تا تصویر کناری در زمان های مختلف گرفته شدن و بعد با مقایسه تایل به تایل تصویر وسط که نشون دهنده تغییرات در تصاویر هست به دست اومدن که کار الگوریتم های پردازش تصویر هست​


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## Blue In Green

Vay khodah, vaghe'an goh khordam keh farsi dooros hasebi yadnager-raftem.....

xD

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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> این هم ایده جالبی هست
> اما فکر نمی کنم پهپادهای ما بتونند به این پایگاه ها خیلی نزدیک بشن یا اونقدر توانایی داشته باشن که مثلاً از 200 کیلومتری از پایگاه عکس برداری کنند
> 
> بعد هم معمولاً اصلاح پرسپکتیو تا یه حدی باید کار کنه، نه دیگه خیلی زیاد. معمولاً تصاویر از ارتفاعات خیلی بالا به صورت ارتوگرافیک هستند و تبدیلات هوموگرافی که مال فضاهای پروژکتیو هستند حدس می زنم روشون کار نکنه چون احتمالاً تبدیلات عکس های ارتوگرافیک باید به تبدیلات آفین کاهش پیدا کنه و به نوعی حالت سینگولار باشه اما احتمال داره اشتباه کنم
> 
> یه چند وقتی هست می خوام ازت بپرسم داستان این 3 نقطه آخر هر کامنت که می ذاری چی هست. قبلاً نمی ذاشتی



I do not think it was google anyway because drone images were also available.
Maybe Chinese or Russian images but definitely not google

It is possible to take drone photos from an angle/side and do stereoversion reconstruction. Techniques are shape from shadow or edge detection/ registration.
ایده قدیمی ده بیست سال پیشه
ایده من نیست

با چند عکس از چند زاویه نمای سه بعدی اشیا به دست میاد و روی تصاویر ماهواره هم انجام شده
روشهاش مختلفه
گوشه یابی و رجیستریشن
تصویر از سایه یا استریو ویژن معروفه

پهباد تو ابهای بینالمللی باشه کافیه
حتی هواپیمای مسافری ما هم میتونه

نور پنج تا پنجاه کیلویی هر کدوم درست باشه نمیتونه رزولوشن دو متر بده

چن نقطه برای فاصله از انتهای پیامه
باگ گوشی منه یا باگه این فروم


....​


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## Philip the Arab




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## Mithridates

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Vay khodah, vaghe'an goh khordam keh farsi dooros hasebi yadnager-raftem.....
> 
> xD



i will try to wright finglish for you bro


----------



## QWECXZ

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Vay khodah, vaghe'an goh khordam keh farsi dooros hasebi yadnager-raftem.....
> 
> xD



Hanooz ham dir nist. Khatte Farsi ro yad begiri baghie ro balad hasti.



Shawnee said:


> ایده قدیمی ده بیست سال پیشه
> ایده من نیست
> 
> با چند عکس از چند زاویه نمای سه بعدی اشیا به دست میاد و روی جی پی اس هم انجام شده
> روشهاش مختلفه
> گوشه یابی و رجیستریشن
> تصویر از سایه یا استریو ویژن معروفه
> 
> پهباد تو ابهای بینالمللی باشه کافیه
> حتی هواپیمای مسافری ما هم میتونه
> 
> چن نقطه برای فاصله از انتهای پیامه
> باگ گوشی منه یا باگه این فروم
> ....​


می دونم، اما مسئله چیز دیگه ای هست

ببین اصولاً دوربین یک نگاشت از فضای پروژکتیو سه بعدی به فضای پروژکتیو 2 بعدی هست. به برد نگاشت تابعی که فضای پروژکتیو سه بعدی رو می اندازه روی فضای دوبعدی می گن تصویر

از اونجایی که فضای سه بعدی پروژکتیو رو می شه با چهار مولفه همگن و فضای دو بعدی رو با سه مولفه همگن نمایش داد، هر دوربین رو می شه با یک ماتریس 3 در 4 نمایش داد که خودش تجزیه می شه به چند بخش که یکیش پارامترهای خارجی دوربین هست و یکی دیگش پارامترهای داخلی دوربین
پارامترهای داخلی دوربین چیزهایی مثل اندازه طول و عرض هر پیکسل دوربین، کجی پیکسل، نقطه مبداء مختصات در صفحه عکس و فاصله کانونی دوربین هست

حالا تو می تونی هر دو عکسی رو به هم دیگه با یک تبدیل هوموگرافی که یک ماتریس 3 در 3 هست که 8 مولفه مستقل خطی داره تبدیل کنی و به نوعی پرسپکتیو رو اصلاح کنی

مسئله اینجاست عکس هایی که از فاصله های خیلی خیلی دور ثبت می شن، مثل تصاویر ماهواره ای، یک مقدار متفاوت هستن چون تو این تصاویر فاصله کانونی دوربین که یکی از پارامترهای داخلی هست به بی نهایت میل می کنه. تو حالت عادی، تبدیلات فضای سه بعدی پروژکتیو با ماتریس های 4 در 4 داده می شن که البته تعداد مولفه مستقل خطی اش کمتر از 16 هست اما تو حالتی که دوربین فاصله کانونی اش بی نهایت باشه تبدیلات فضا به تبدیلات آفین تبدیل می شن (یعنی تبدیلات طول نگهدار 3 بعدی اقلیدسی)

حالا نمی دونم این تا چه حد مسئله رو پیچیده می کنه، اما وقتی اختلاف دو عکس از نظر پرسپکتیو زیاد باشه، حتی همون تبدیلات ساده هم مشکل آفرین می شن. برای نمونه برای پیدا کردن تبدیل هوموگرافی که یه عکس رو به یه عکس دیگه تبدیل می کنه باید حتماً بتونی چهارتا نقطه متناظر در هر دو عکس در یک صفحه که هیچ سه تایی اش هم خط نیستند رو پیدا کنی. معمولاً این کار رو با الگوریتم هایی انجام می دن مثل
RANSAC

اما کلاً خیلی از اطلاعات پس از اصلاح پرسپکتیو طبیعی به نظر نمیان و مشخص هست که اصلاح پرسپکتیو صورت گرفته. مثلاً اگر یک تابلو تبلیغاتی وسط تصویر باشه، شکل کلی تابلو درست در میاد، اما چون چیزی از پشت تابلو نداری، معلوم می شه تغییر پرسپکتیو دادی

خلاصه داستان اینه که کار ساده ای نیست

در مورد سه بعدی سازی مسئله یه مقدار متفاوت هست و بر می گرده به نگاشت پایه ای و ماتریس اساسی. کلیت این هست که هر نقطه تو عکس یک خط در فضا به تو می ده و وقتی تو دو تا عکس از دو تا تصویر از یک چیز داشته باشی، با تقاطع خطوط در فضا می تونی مختصات سه بعدی نقطه رو در یک دستگاه مرجع به دست بیاری

البته خوب همه اینها هزاران مشکل داره به خاطر نویز در تصاویر و خود بحث پردازش الگوریتم ها و چیزهای دیگه​

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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> Hanooz ham dir nist. Khatte Farsi ro yad begiri baghie ro balad hasti.
> 
> 
> می دونم، اما مسئله چیز دیگه ای هست
> 
> ببین اصولاً دوربین یک نگاشت از فضای پروژکتیو سه بعدی به فضای پروژکتیو 2 بعدی هست. به برد نگاشت تابعی که فضای پروژکتیو سه بعدی رو می شونه روی فضای دوبعدی می گن تصویر
> 
> از اونجایی که فضای سه بعدی پروژکتیو رو می شه با چهار مولفه همگن و فضای دو بعدی رو با سه مولفه همگن نمایش داد، هر دوربین رو می شه با یک ماتریس 3 در 4 نمایش داد که خودش تجزیه می شه به چند بخش که یکیش پارامترهای خارجی دوربین هست و یکی دیگش پارامترهای داخلی دوربین
> پارامترهای داخلی دوربین چیزهایی مثل اندازه طول و عرض هر پیکسل دوربین، کجی پیکسل، نقطه مبداء مختصات در صفحه عکس و اینها هست
> 
> حالا تو می تونی هر دو عکسی رو به هم دیگه با یک تبدیل هوموگرافی که یک ماتریس 3 در 3 هست که 8 مولفه مستقل خطی داره تبدیل کنی و به نوعی پرسپکتیو رو اصلاح کنی
> 
> مسئله اینجاست عکس هایی که از فاصله های خیلی خیلی دور ثبت می شن، مثل تصاویر ماهواره ای، یک مقدار متفاوت هست چون تو این تصاویر فاصله کانونی دوربین که یکی از پارامترهای داخلی هست به بی نهایت میل می کنه. تو حالت عادی، تبدیلات فضای سه بعدی پروژکتیو با ماتریس های 4 در 4 داده می شن که البته تعداد مولفه مستقل خطی اش کمتر هست اما تو حالتی که دوربین فاصله کانونی اش بی نهایت باشه تبدیلات فضات به تبدیلات آفین تبدیل می شن
> 
> حالا نمی دونم این تا چه حد مسئله رو پیچیده می کنه، اما وقتی اختلاف دو عکس از نظر پرسپکتیو زیاد باشه، حتی همون تبدیلات ساده هم مشکل آفرین می شن. برای نمونه برای پیدا کردن تبدیل هوموگرافی که یه عکس رو به یه عکس دیگه تبدیل می کنه باید حتماً بتونی چهارتا نقطه در یک صفحه که هیچ سه تایی اش هم خط نیستند رو پیدا کنی. معمولاً این کار رو با الگوریتم هایی انجام می دن مثل
> RANSAC
> 
> اما کلاً خیلی از اطلاعات پس از اصلاح پرسپکتیو طبیعی به نظر نمیان و مشخص هست که اصلاح پرسپکتیو صورت گرفته. مثلاً اگر یک تابلو تبلیغاتی وسط تصویر باشه، محیط تابلو کاملاً درست در میاد، اما چون چیزی از پشت تابلو نداری، معلوم می شه تغییر پرسپکتیو دادی
> 
> خلاصه داستان اینه که کار ساده ای نیست
> 
> در مورد سه بعدی سازی مسئله یه مقدار متفاوت هست و بر می گرده به نگاشت پایه ای و ماتریس اساسی. کلیت این هست که هر نقطه تو عکس یک خط در فضا به تو می ده و وقتی تو دو تا عکس از دو تا تصویر از یک چیز داشته باشی، با تقاطع خطوط در فضا می تونی مختصات سه بعدی نقطه رو در یک دستگاه مرجع به دست بیاری
> 
> البته خوب همه اینها هزاران مشکل داره به خاطر نویز در تصاویر و خود بحث پردازش الگوریتم ها و چیزهای دیگه​



Any camera has an optic model that is used in signal and image processing. When you model it you correct for its weaknesses. You can get good images this way even from one side although it is not going to be excellent.

اسون نیست اما سخت هم نیست
باور نمیکنم دانشمند ما بیاد عکس گوگل تحویل بده با همه این امکانات

چن روز مدیا حمله خواهند کرد با همین گوگل
و جواب هم داره که ارایه تصاویر متنوع بیشتره
...

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## QWECXZ

Shawnee said:


> Any camera has an optic model that is used in signal and image processing. When you model it you correct for its weaknesses. You can get good images this way even from one side although it is not going to be excellent.
> 
> اسون نیست اما سخت هم نیست
> باور نمیکنم دانشمند ما بیاد عکس گوگل تحویل بده با همه این امکانات
> 
> چن روز مدیا حمله خواهد کرد با همین گوگل
> و جواب هم داره که ارایه تصاویر متنوع بیشتره
> ...


چرا، می تونه سخت باشه در عمل

ما یه بار خواستیم ساختمون دانشکده رو مدل سه بعدیش رو در بیاریم، بیچاره شدیم. در نهایت هم یک توده تنک از نقاط رو پیدا می کنه که سه بعدی می شن و بقیه نقاط رو باید با روش های دیگه ای پر کنی. مثلاً از چند میلیون نقطه که باید سه بعدی بشن، تو نهایت هزار نقطه رو سه بعدی پیدا می کنی

بگذریم از اینکه همون الگوریتم های شناسایی نقاط متناظر در تصاویر هم خطا بسیار بسیار زیاد دارن و خیلی آسون گول می خورن
به ویژه اگر اینکه در تصویر تکرار داشته باشی

مثلاً اگر بخوای دو تا عکس از سی و سه پل اصفهان رو بینشون یک تبدیل هوموگرافی پیدا کنی، بیچاره می شی چون الگوریتم های کامپیوتری نمی تونند بین اینکه کدوم نقطه مال کدوم یکی از پل ها هست تفاوت بذارن و خیلی از نقاط متناظر رو اشتباه پیدا می کنن

هر چی تقارن و تکرار در تصاویرت بیشتر باشه، پیدا کردن تبدیل های اتوماتیک هوموگرافی سخت تر می شه

خلاصه اینکه آبروریزی بزرگی شد. در تعجب هستم هنوز دیگران نیومدن مسخره کنند​


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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> چرا، می تونه سخت باشه در عمل
> 
> ما یه بار خواستیم ساختمون دانشکده رو مدل سه بعدیش رو در بیاریم، بیچاره شدیم. در نهایت هم یک توده تنک از نقاط رو پیدا می کنه که سه بعدی می شن و بقیه نقاط رو باید با روش های دیگه ای پر کنی. مثلاً از چند میلیون نقطه که باید سه بعدی بشن، تو نهایت هزار نقطه رو سه بعدی پیدا می کنی
> 
> بگذریم از اینکه همون الگوریتم های شناسایی نقاط متناظر در تصاویر هم خطا بسیار بسیار زیاد دارن و خیلی آسون گول می خورن
> به ویژه اگر اینکه در تصویر تکرار داشته باشی
> 
> مثلاً اگر بخوای دو تا عکس از سی و سه پل اصفهان رو بینشون یک تبدیل هوموگرافی پیدا کنی، بیچاره می شی چون الگوریتم های کامپیوتری نمی تونند بین اینکه کدوم نقطه مال کدوم یکی از پل ها هست تفاوت بذارن و خیلی از نقاط متناظر رو اشتباه پیدا می کنن
> 
> هر چی تقارن و تکرار در تصاویرت بیشتر باشه، پیدا کردن تبدیل های اتوماتیک هوموگرافی سخت تر می شه
> 
> خلاصه اینکه آبروریزی بزرگی شد. در تعجب هستم هنوز دیگران نیومدن مسخره کنند​



Corners/edges should be filtered first to make features. Then you register the features. Features have to be robust in space and time.

In the end, details will be lost occasionally. Definitely not a perfect technique.

One company in US has made 3D satellite images in US and started from Tehran images! They are trying to sell it to the federal government.

خلاصه عکس با رزولوشن دو متر نه مال نور ه نه گوگل
...


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## QWECXZ

Shawnee said:


> Corners/edges should be filtered first to make features. Then you register the features. Features have to be robust in space and time.
> 
> In the end, details will be lost occasionally. Definitely not a perfect technique.
> 
> One company in US has made 3D satellite images in US and started from Tehran images! They are trying to sell it to the federal government.
> ...


Yeah, but even corner detection is not an easy task. Have you tried Harris corner detection, for example? It's far from perfect. And even when you have the corners, the issue of matching them remains problematic. Imagine you have two chessboard patterns. It will be easy to find the corners, but how will you know which corner matches which?

Of course, problems like matching chessboard patterns are easy, but it gives you an idea of the issues arising in problems like that.

Yup. But they are doing that with more than one satellite. If you refer to the question I asked from Mohammad45 and Peed, you will see that I was thinking about the same, but for missile guidance.


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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> Yeah, but even corner detection is not an easy task. Have you tried Harris corner detection, for example? It's far from perfect. And even when you have the corners, the issue of matching them remains problematic. Imagine you have two chessboard patterns. It will be easy to find the corners, but how will you know which corner matches which?
> 
> Of course, problems like matching chessboard patterns are easy, but it gives you an idea of the issues arising in problems like that.
> 
> Yup. But they are doing that with more than one satellite. If you refer to the question I asked from Mohammad45 and Peed, you will see that I was thinking about the same, but for missile guidance.



True, it will not be perfect. Harris technique is really old but improvements were not perfect either.

With respect to your question:
Unless you have multiple LEO satellites, your will lose time resolution but you still have some limited missile guidance based on limited images.
...


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## QWECXZ

Shawnee said:


> True, it will not be perfect. Harris technique is really old but improvement were not perfect either.
> 
> With respect to your question:
> Unless you have multiple LEO satellite, your will lose time resolution but you still have some limited missile guidance based on limited images.
> ...


But how? Don't you need to determine the 3D position of the missile to update its path and guide it onto the target?
I mean I know we can always use radar stations for things like this, but I'm asking about the applications of Noor-1 alone.


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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> But how? Don't you need to determine the 3D position of the missile to update its path and guide it onto the target?
> I mean I know we can always use radar stations for things like this, but I'm asking about the applications of Noor-1 alone.



Are you talking about optical guidance of the missile or radar guidance? Nour is thought to have only optical sensors and data emitters.

Nour is at 400+ km and our missile is at 100 km with a diameter of about 2m. Nour camera cannot resolve our missiles optically and Nour does not emit radar pulses as far as we know.

Nour images can do active target observation with limited time resolution.
...

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## QWECXZ

Shawnee said:


> Are you talking about optical guidance of the missile or radar guidance? Nour is thought to have only optical sensors and data emitters.
> ...


Well, if it has only optical camera, then it's not that much useful for that purpose.
I thought it might be able to emit radar rays too.

What do you think about what Mithridates said? Do you think those heat maps are in fact infrared images?

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## Buddhistforlife

TheImmortal said:


> Rumors about a Shahab-4 and Shahab-5 have existed since early 2000’s. Project likely existed in some preliminary research form, but never made it to mass production.
> 
> Iran pivoted away from liquid fuel and to the more advanced solid fuel with the Fateh and Sejil family.
> 
> Thus Shahab family has long been discontinued and *future Iranian IRBM and ICBM* will likely use solid fuel engines being tested at Sharoud Missile facility.


ICBM and IRBM uses nuclear warhead. Does Iran have nuclear weapons. Why don't the Ayatollah declare it if it's true?


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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> Well, if it has only optical camera, then it's not that much useful for that purpose.
> I thought it might be able to emit radar rays too.
> 
> What do you think about what Mithridates said? Do you think those heat maps are in fact infrared images?



Yes. I think it is IR data.
Color mapping is also used for motion data but its pattern is not like motion data at all.
...

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## Ich

I dont know if its already posted

The Vid:

https://media.farsnews.ir/media/Uploaded/Files/Video/1399/05/08/13990508000572.mp4

The story:

https://en.farsnews.ir/newstext.aspx?nn=13990508000392

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## Draco.IMF

PeeD said:


> Iran is creating a new and unique missile launch concept. It is much more survivable than its previous concept while more cost effective than its super-hardened cavern silo launch system already unveiled (the highest performance launch concept of Iran and known to mankind).
> Innovative and effective approach but I won't be the first one to reveal it in open source.



@PeeD

regarding the new missile we saw launched from underground "containers" yesterday.
I quoted your post I have found you posted one year ago, you mentioned some "new missile launch concept"
Is it related? Is it this you mentioned one year ago?

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## Shams313

Buddhistforlife said:


> ICBM and IRBM uses nuclear warhead. Does Iran have nuclear weapons. Why don't the Ayatollah declare it if it's true?


u r nuking the thread with misconception.

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## PeeD

Draco.IMF said:


> @PeeD
> 
> regarding the new missile we saw launched from underground "containers" yesterday.
> I quoted your post I have found you posted one year ago, you mentioned some "new missile launch concept"
> Is it related? Is it this you mentioned one year ago?



No, that basing concept has not been revealed this time. Its for Irans long range missiles, primary the liquids.

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> No, that basing concept has not been revealed this time. Its for Irans long range missiles, primary the liquids.



You don't have to confirm or deny this since I would imagine such a firing method that I'm about to mention is still classified and Iran isn't all too keen on wanting others to know about it as of now.

Can it be said, or inferred, that Iran employs a method of firing its FATEH type quasi-bms or smaller precision guided missiles from civilian looking trucks with shipping containers on the back that house the missile itself? 

I know we've seen AshCMs being launched from trucks but it would seem so appropriate for Iran to employ a firing method using a regular old truck that looks like any other one for cargo hulls or deliveries.

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288836546481795072

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## Mr Iran Eye

Have #Iran's anti-radar ballistic missiles become hypersonic?

During the "Great Prophet-14" military exercise, a new Iranian-made anti-radar missile was tested. The test firing consisted of targeting a model of the AN / TPY-2 radar of the THAAD anti-missile system.

The hypersonic missile struck its target with a speed greater than Mach 5, so its interception was impossible by DCA systems and anti-missile shields.

In this recent exercise, the tested missile would be a hypersonic missile given its speed which reached the Mach 5 threshold.
Press TV

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## IAm

Mr Iran Eye said:


> Have #Iran's anti-radar ballistic missiles become hypersonic?
> 
> During the "Great Prophet-14" military exercise, a new Iranian-made anti-radar missile was tested. The test firing consisted of targeting a model of the AN / TPY-2 radar of the THAAD anti-missile system.
> 
> The hypersonic missile struck its target with a speed greater than Mach 5, so its interception was impossible by DCA systems and anti-missile shields.
> 
> In this recent exercise, the tested missile would be a hypersonic missile given its speed which reached the Mach 5 threshold.
> Press TV


I think most BMs have hypersonic terminal speed though they are not called by that name.


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## Philosopher



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## yavar

Look at Laughter on his face when his came to answer question

The body language says it all

His answer: I can’t Review any classified which his been briffed on.






They already know about program and what stage is in

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> Look at Laughter on his face when his came to answer question
> 
> The body language says it all
> 
> His answer I can’t Review any classified classified which his been given.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They already know about program and what stage is in



Would Iranian made SLBMs go on larger indigenous submarines yet to be unveiled?

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## yavar

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Would Iranian made SLBMs go on larger indigenous submarines yet to be unveiled?


you want my answer on this subject ??
people will find hard to believe if say anything.
i answered that already 10 years ago on Iranmilitaryforum.net
i wish the forum was on line today so you can see for your self and mach word for word

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> you want my answer on this subject ??
> people will find hard to believe if say anything.
> i answered that already 10 years ago on Iranmilitaryforum.net
> i wish the forum was on line today so you can see for your self and mach word for word



I'm one of the most open to all 'answers and assertions' type of guy out there. Your word is as good as anybody else's since I want to hear as much as I can so I can come to my own conclusion on a give subject.

So please Yavar, don't be afraid to talk about what it is you are comfortable in divulging. If it's too sensitive and will potentially harm the security of Iran then please refrain from saying but if you it is relatively safe then I wouldn't mind hearing it.

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## yavar

BlueInGreen2 said:


> I'm one of the most open to all 'answers and assertions' type of guy out there. Your word is as good as anybody else's since I want to hear as much as I can so I can come to my own conclusion on a give subject.
> 
> So please Yavar, don't be afraid to talk about what it is you are comfortable in divulging. If it's too sensitive and will potentially harm the security of Iran then please refrain from saying but if you it is relatively safe then I wouldn't mind hearing it.



The answer to your question is :
The prospect of such a system is a reality which is life and in full steem so ....

Their bluff which is the Israeli establishment uses that they may strike islamic Republic is their biggest bluff of the century they are fully aware of Islamic Republic capability.

The strike on Ain Al-Assad and Erbil U.S military bases and what followed after that is one of the greatest example ....

The IRGC Four point statement made it clear to what would be followed






So this joke that Israel will exist is the most laughable one


Today Iran nuclear program is at such a stage that even in the back door negotiation which is taking place with the U.S. is on top of the agenda,
the reality which diplomatic and intelligence community no longer Denise
Our posture at such a stage that no country I mean no country can get away with it.

That’s as best as I can put it

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> The answer to your question is :
> The prospect of such a system is a reality which is life and in full steem so ....
> 
> Their bluff which is the Israeli establishment uses that they may strike islamic Republic is their biggest bluff of the century they are fully aware of Islamic Republic capability.
> 
> The strike on Ain Al-Assad and Erbil U.S military bases and what followed after that is one of the greatest example ....
> 
> The IRGC Four point statement made it clear to what would be followed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So this joke that Israel will exist is the most laughable one
> 
> 
> Today Iran nuclear program is at such a stage that even in the back door negotiation which is taking place with the U.S. is on top of the agenda,
> the reality which diplomatic and intelligence community no longer Denise
> Our posture at such a stage that no country I mean no country can get away with it.
> 
> That’s as best as I can put it



Yavar, hopefully this isn't too much ask as I do sincerely appreciate your response but as my own understanding of Farsi is only limited to casual Fingilisi talks here and there I couldn't fully understand what the points of the video actually were trying to say as some of the phrases and words in Farsi I just don't know. 

You wouldn't mind translating them here to english so I can get a better picture?

I assume that this gist of the video and what you're trying to say is that essentially Iran has called the bluff of the Americans and Israelis in-terms of operation-capabilities and will seek to exploit that against them in any future conflict?

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> this Iranian national channel 1
> 3 minutes after missile strike on U.S bases in Iraq
> IRGC releases statement in which had 4 step
> 
> which as follows
> if U.S respond to Iranian strike IRGC will give heavir respond to U.S in retaliation
> and in that response IRGC will take care of state of Israel and Israel will not be immune
> 
> 
> 
> No



Iran will be going after Israel directly and openly if any-sort of American attack on Iran happens?

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## yavar

BlueInGreen2 said:


> You wouldn't mind translating them here to english so I can get a better picture?









this Iranian national channel 1
3 minutes after missile strike on U.S bases in Iraq
IRGC releases statement in which had 4 step

which as follows
if U.S respond to Iranian strike IRGC will give heavir respond to U.S in retaliation
and in that response IRGC will take care of state of Israel and Israel will not be immune


if you need word for word translation of video ask members here and they will do it for you



BlueInGreen2 said:


> you're trying to say is that essentially Iran has called the bluff of the Americans and Israelis in-terms of operation-
> 
> capabilities and will seek to exploit that against them in any future conflict?



No

What I’m saying is very clear, what I’m saying is. IRI Iran is nuclear power with full capability and U.S. and Israeli intelligence and diplomats and high ranking mlitary are well were of that.

and i don't mean having one tactical atom bomb
soon or later will people find out whether Pakistan or India or North Korea nuclear program is more head of Iran or NOT

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> this Iranian national channel 1
> 3 minutes after missile strike on U.S bases in Iraq
> IRGC releases statement in which had 4 step
> 
> which as follows
> if U.S respond to Iranian strike IRGC will give heavir respond to U.S in retaliation
> and in that response IRGC will take care of state of Israel and Israel will not be immune
> 
> 
> 
> No
> 
> What I’m saying is very clear, what I’m saying is. IRI Iran is nuclear power with full capability and U.S. and Israeli intelligence and diplomats and high ranking mlitary are well were of that



Oh, well that changes things quite drastically now doesn't it.

Thank you very much for the clarification!!

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## Dariush the Great

yavar said:


> this Iranian national channel 1
> 3 minutes after missile strike on U.S bases in Iraq
> IRGC releases statement in which had 4 step
> 
> which as follows
> if U.S respond to Iranian strike IRGC will give heavir respond to U.S in retaliation
> and in that response IRGC will take care of state of Israel and Israel will not be immune
> 
> 
> 
> No
> 
> What I’m saying is very clear, what I’m saying is. IRI Iran is nuclear power with full capability and U.S. and Israeli intelligence and diplomats and high ranking mlitary are well were of that


I thought most people knew that already ? The plan was i hit you- you hit me strikes.. any American reaction would have been replied again and again (Hajizadeh confirmed this) until god knows what would happen next. 

Americans retreated and did not answer the missile strike on their base.


----------



## yavar

BlueInGreen2 said:


> Iran will be going after Israel directly and openly if any-sort of American attack on Iran happens?


not only after, will take care of for good,
no one and i mean no one here in Islamic Republic ( strategic forces or strategic ocean forces IRGC ) has any slightest doubt that after Iran strike Israel will retaliate and retaliate powerfully

so Israel has to go in second stage of any major conflict

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## TheImmortal

US policy against Iran has been containment with a hope of regime change.

US wants Iran in its orbit for the long run against a China bi polar world. Iranians have more in line with the West Than they do with the East. However, Israel has prevented this remarriage as well as certain elements of US establishment that stay in power by catering to Israeli wishes.

Nonetheless, Iran has never closed the door on relations with the West. Even if Khomeini said to always keep the US embassy as vacant property because he himself said that Iran and US ties would not be cut forever.

However, until a Nixon China moment happens in Iranian-US relations where US accepts Iranian sovereignty and independence we cannot have normalized or semi normalized relations.

Nonetheless, there will be a day when Iran is engaging with all major industrial nations. The current global economic system relies on more and more developing countries to feed the growth and debt expansion of Western governments. Thus it will be inevitable in my opinion.

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## yavar

Iran IRGC aerospace force chief Brigadier General Amir-Ali Hajizadeh: High-Speed Anti-Radiation ballistic Missile ( HARM, HARBM ), 
HARBM extirpate THaad High Altitude Area Defense simulation. 
canister launched Hot vent ballistic missile, buried ballistic missile launched (NOT Silo), 
Farm ballistic missile feiled,
IRGC The Great Prophet_14 drill,

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> Iran IRGC aerospace force chief Brigadier General Amir-Ali Hajizadeh: High-Speed Anti-Radiation ballistic Missile ( HARM, HARBM ),
> HARBM extirpate THaad High Altitude Area Defense simulation.
> canister launched Hot vent ballistic missile, buried ballistic missile launched (NOT Silo),
> Farm ballistic missile feiled,
> IRGC The Great Prophet_14 drill,



is this missile hypersonic? there are rumours out there...
@yavar whats your opinion on hypersonic missile development

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## yavar

Iran IRGC aerospace force chief Brigadier General Amir-Ali Hajizadeh: Rocket strike on the bases of the MKO terrorist group in Iraq 2001 in Revenge association of the Army Major General Sayad Shirazi ٫ IRGC_AS Rezvan Operation,

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> is this missile hypersonic? there are rumours out there...
> @yavar whats your opinion on hypersonic missile development


P-800 Oniks
even Hezbollah has them
so we have to develop on that

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288480327619489794
The speed is at least 5 Mach based on the temperature and color of the tip of the warhead in the bottom picture prior to the strike.
....

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## Shawnee

yavar said:


> P-800 Oniks
> even Hezbollah has them
> so we have to develop on that



یاور جان به نظرم این بالیستیک های خودمونه بر اساس تراجکتری
چرا میگی انیکس ه یا کروزه 

لوله ما به این کلفتی 
لوله اونها تراجکتوری و غیره رو ببین





..


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## triangle

This video of Binkov made me laugh. And I'm sure made many more people laugh..

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## Sineva

triangle said:


> This video of Binkov made me laugh. And I'm sure made many more people laugh..


LOL
What did you expect?,the guy is literally a fvcking muppet.
I suspect that when it comes to his quick dismissal of irans missile forces that hes been reading anthony cordesmans so called "assessments" of irans missile capabilities,which after after the jan 2020 demonstration of both their accuracy and destructive fire power now seem,well shall we say rather....."inaccurate" 
However it certainly would be nice if during any hypothetical us build up that the us were to just simply leave aegis destroyers puttering around effectively trapped in the persian gulf to be sunk at irans leisure,not to mention a couple of carriers literally within easy reach of all of irans anti ship fire power as well.
Ultimately I suspect that this guy like a lot of other commentators just seems to think of iran as just a slightly larger,slightly stronger version of saddams iraq circa 1991.
Still,if nothing else its good for a chuckle as long as you dont take it to seriously of course.....

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## Ich

triangle said:


> This video of Binkov made me laugh. And I'm sure made many more people laugh..



Sounds like standup comedy from the 90s...

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## Sineva

Heres a new picture of a new twin missile launcher equipped with possibly the precision guidance equipped nazeat large caliber artillery rocket.





The missile is way too small to be a fateh 110,but its 110 configuration matches one of the precision guidance retro fitted nazeats showcased recently

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## 925boy

yavar said:


> P-800 Oniks
> even Hezbollah has them
> so we have to develop on that


Hezbollah has P800 Oniks??? sorry but i highly doubt that..


----------



## VEVAK

triangle said:


> This video of Binkov made me laugh. And I'm sure made many more people laugh..



LOL! Probably the same the delusions the Americans were under when they spent $250M usd on the 2002 Millennial Challenge!

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## yavar

925boy said:


> Hezbollah has P800 Oniks??? sorry but i highly doubt that..


February 2017
The Lebanese terror group Hezbollah has obtained advanced Russian-made anti-ship missiles, potentially threatening Israeli gas fields in the Mediterranean Sea and the Israeli Navy’s ability to operate in the area, according to a report published Sunday.

Hezbollah’s possession of the Yakhont missiles was revealed by unnamed Western intelligence officials over the weekend at the Munich Security Conference, where world leaders and defense ministers are meeting to discuss major security issues, according to a report in the Hebrew daily Yedioth Ahronoth. The report did not reveal in what forum the revelations were made.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollah-said-to-have-obtained-game-changing-anti-ship-missiles/

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## 925boy

yavar said:


> February 2017
> The Lebanese terror group Hezbollah has obtained advanced Russian-made anti-ship missiles, potentially threatening Israeli gas fields in the Mediterranean Sea and the Israeli Navy’s ability to operate in the area, according to a report published Sunday.
> 
> Hezbollah’s possession of the Yakhont missiles was revealed by unnamed Western intelligence officials over the weekend at the Munich Security Conference, where world leaders and defense ministers are meeting to discuss major security issues, according to a report in the Hebrew daily Yedioth Ahronoth. The report did not reveal in what forum the revelations were made.
> https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollah-said-to-have-obtained-game-changing-anti-ship-missiles/


Ok, WOW.

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## SalarHaqq

925boy said:


> Hezbollah has P800 Oniks??? sorry but i highly doubt that..



Also Syria took delivery of 2 batallions of Onix/Yakhont missiles in 2011 according to Russian publications cited here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-800_Oniks#Operators

Syria has them = good chance that Hezbollah and Iran will receive a couple examples as well.

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## 925boy

SalarHaqq said:


> Also Syria took delivery of 2 batallions of Onix missiles in 2011 according to Russian publications cited here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-800_Oniks#Operators
> 
> Syria has them = good chance that Hezbollah and Iran will receive a couple examples as well.


For sure, makes sense! Syria has been reliable in getting Hezbollah what it "needs"..

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## skyshadow

Iran *Defense Minister Hatami says new cruise missile will be unveiled in the coming days, adds that the Islamic Republic will continue to peruse its space program hinting at “new stages”—might translate into more satellite launches. *IRGC *launched a military satellite in April.*

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## Draco.IMF

*Impressive accuracy, the target size is 40x40m*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1294982158814191616

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## triangle

A true bunkerbuster

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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> *Impressive accuracy, the target size is 40x40m*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1294982158814191616


more like leaser weapon

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## Arminkh

Draco.IMF said:


> *Impressive accuracy, the target size is 40x40m*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1294982158814191616


I don't want ro be anywhere near where it hits. It's scary!

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## Raghfarm007

Video:

https://www.aparat.com/v/BLbp3/فیلم_دیده&zwnj;_نشده_از_نقطه&zwnj;زنی_موشک_خرمشهر-۲

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1294175482011942912

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## TheImmortal

*Detail on Iran’s Qased SLV*
Leave a reply


In this June 30 speech, UK Ambassador Jonathan Allen provided some details on Iran’s Qased SLV:

We are deeply concerned by Iran’s development of advanced technologies under the guise of Space Launch Vehicle research and the roles these technologies play in supporting Iran’s military ballistic missile program. We reject Iran’s claims that the Qased system used in their most recent launch is not a military launch system. *In addition to the self-proclaimed role of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps in the launch, Iran’s official reports show a Transporter Erector Launcher, characteristic of military ballistic missiles and not a static launch done, or “gantry”, of the type normally associated with civilian Space Launch Vehicles.*

The UNSG report to which he referred in his speech has more detail :

*Iran stated that, unlike all of its previous space launch vehicle tests, this programme was developed and conducted by the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.* The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is a military entity known to control Iran’s strategic missile forces. The launch was conducted from an Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps facility in Shahrud which was not previously associated with such launches.

<snip>

The design of the Qased second stage is based on a new solid-propellant motor and incorporates a new attitude control module. *This solid-propellant motor design is similar to the Salman system unveiled by the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps in February 2020 along with a range of other new ballistic missile technology*, including the Raad-500 short-range ballistic missile. The Salman featured a flexible-nozzle control system, rather than jet vanes used on other Iranian solid-propellant motors. This technology improves the motor’s efficiency and is essential for the development of larger-diameter solid-propellant motors suitable, primarily, in the design of long- range ballistic missiles. Official Iranian media reporting in February 2020 showed a static test of the Salman motor at the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Shahrud facility. The test facilities at the Shahrud site include four additional static motor test platforms, which are only suitable for testing such larger-diameter solid-propellant ballistic missile motors.

Iranian state media reporting shows t*he Qased uses an attitude control module to control its orientation and flight path prior to satellite release. This technology has been derived from Iran’s development of ballistic missiles with manoeuvrable re-entry vehicles, such as the Emad variant of the Shahab-3 and the Qiam-2.*

*The attitude control system on the Qased demonstrated the capability to accurately control and orient a vehicle outside the atmosphere. This is an essential technology for the development of a long-range ballistic missile system capable of deploying both multiple re-entry vehicles and multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles
*
https://totalwonkerr.net/2020/08/14/detail-on-irans-qased-slv/

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1293160677960384512


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## skyshadow

*Iran's new secret missile 
















*

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## skyshadow

*

Iran's Hoot torpedo, fastest torpedo in the world














*

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## skyshadow



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## Shams313

skyshadow said:


>


old pic..whats new??

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## skyshadow

*unknown missile warhead hitting its target it could be Sejil ballistic missile 





*

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## skyshadow

Shams313 said:


> old pic..whats new??


yes, well vertical cruise missile launch and Hoot torpedo are new


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## Shams313

skyshadow said:


> yes, well vertical cruise missile launch and Hoot torpedo are new


and why that old pic....?? I have that pic on my computer for years.
someone should upload that video.


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## skyshadow

Shams313 said:


> and why that old pic....?? I have that pic on my computer for years.
> someone should upload that video.



here is the video 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295247913321463814

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295198693356797953

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## Buddhistforlife

Does Iran have KhorramShahr 2 missile with range of 2500 km in its inventory? 

I always knew there is only one KhorramShahr.

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## yavar

Buddhistforlife said:


> Does Iran have KhorramShahr 2 missile with range of 2500 km in its inventory?.


fully fueled the range is 4000 KM
it is political decision to say 2000KM












already done test of 4000 KM which ended up in UNSC emergency meeting,
don't listen to me listen to someone who sees some classified briefing

so IRBM

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## TheImmortal

The new missile doesn’t look to be launched from a submarine it was launched from a tube sticking out of the water?

Not sure if Iran is trying to say they have underwater missile “farms” or what the point of this demonstration is?

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> The new missile doesn’t look to be launched from a submarine it was launched from a tube sticking out of the water?
> 
> Not sure if Iran is trying to say they have underwater missile “farms” or what the point of this demonstration is?


it could be test launch VLS for submarines


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## IranDefence

skyshadow said:


> *Iran's new secret missile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *




So if American air force wants to suppress Iranian SAMs they not sure if we hit their bases in Arabic countries hard ! Cheap way for deterrence ...water farms !

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## skyshadow

IranDefence said:


> So if American air force wants to suppress Iranian SAMs they not sure if we hit their bases in Arabic countries hard ! Cheap way for deterrence ...water farms !


sea farm i like it, but its looks more like anti-ship cruise missile though

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## skyshadow



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## Mithridates

it is possibly a regular capsule launched cruise missile. it will be better than jask-2 i think, instead of a light missile like kowsar we can launch noor-gader from our subs.

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## triangle

@AmirPatriot , I saw you had trouble posting a thread about the upcoming Defense Industries Day on twitter. I'm sure we don't mind if you post your findings here on this forum.

Maybe we should all tag @AmirPatriot to share his findings with us!

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## skyshadow

*closer look*

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> *closer look*



You can see in other pictures a “top” falls off the tube as missile comes out.

So the question is this a capsule (Jask type device) or a underwater launch device (underwater missile farm)?


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## Buddhistforlife

yavar said:


> fully fueled the range is 4000 KM
> it is political decision to say 2000KM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> already done test of 4000 KM which ended up in UNSC emergency meeting,
> don't listen to me listen to someone who sees some classified briefing
> 
> so IRBM


If Iran already has a 4000 km IRBM then it can hit Entire Europe in the West and South East Asia in the East.

Iran's current missiles already covers Turkey, Russia in the West and India in the East. 

However Saudi has IRBM and possibly ICBMs too.


----------



## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> You can see in other pictures a “top” falls off the tube as missile comes out.
> 
> So the question is this a capsule (Jask type device) or a underwater launch device (underwater missile farm)?


well we do not know what we know is that its a unveiling of an new technology


----------



## skyshadow

Buddhistforlife said:


> If Iran already has a 4000 km IRBM then it can hit Entire Europe in the West and South East Asia in the East.
> 
> Iran's current missiles already covers Turkey, Russia in the West and India in the East.
> 
> However Saudi has IRBM and possibly ICBMs too.


not just that, Iran has these too


----------



## Hack-Hook

Buddhistforlife said:


> If Iran already has a 4000 km IRBM then it can hit Entire Europe in the West and South East Asia in the East.
> 
> Iran's current missiles already covers Turkey, Russia in the West and India in the East.
> 
> However Saudi has IRBM and possibly ICBMs too.


Iran and KSA if want to go to war , will not use those long range missile , if it come to throwing missile at each other then it will be missiles with the range of 1000km at most


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## Buddhistforlife

Hack-Hook said:


> Iran and KSA if want to go to war , will not use those long range missile , if it come to throwing missile at each other then it will be missiles with the range of 1000km at most


Iran and Saudi are next door neighbour. I think SRBMs are enough. At best you can throw some Shahab-3 missiles.


----------



## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> not just that, Iran has these too


What are SLVs? Never heard about these before? Are their roles similar to ballistic missile?


----------



## triangle

Good quality images of the Iranian 'Spike' missile:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295623464938696704

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## sha ah

The Khorramshahr is allegedly related to the North Korean Hwasong-10 IRBM also called the Musudan 4 or BM-25. I'm guessing Iran contributed to the funding and research of the Hwasong-10, among other projects, and therefore reaped the rewards. Others say Iran purchased 18 Hwasong-10 missile sets from North Korea in 2005. Really who knows. 

Some sources list the Khorramshahr as having a 1800 kg warheads with a range of 1000-2000
The Hwasong-10 is listed as having a 650-1250 kg warhead with a range of 3000-4000 km 

Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't it less a matter of fuel and more a matter of the size of the warhead which directly effects the range ? I'm assuming some missiles in Iran's arsenal have various sized warheads, with larger warheads reducing the range ? 

Assuming a 650 kg conventional warhead at a range of 4000 km, with a decent margin of error, this would make the Khorramshahr more a weapon of terror than anything else. Of course in a city center with skyscrapers, even a dozen such missiles, especially with a submunitions (multiple warheads) can be absolutely devastating. It basically gives Iran the option to say to the Europeans or a potential rival "You bomb my country I'll bomb yours" 

In my opinion Iran should stop beating around and bush and just come out with an ICBM or something much beefier than the Khorramshahr. They can still claim the ranger is 2500 KM I suppose. 

However I'm guessing that Iran will not publicly display such a weapon since it would definitely help boost the American narrative about Iran being a threat and undermine Iran's efforts to purchase advanced fighter jets and weapons from Russia and China. 



yavar said:


> fully fueled the range is 4000 KM
> it is political decision to say 2000KM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> already done test of 4000 KM which ended up in UNSC emergency meeting,
> don't listen to me listen to someone who sees some classified briefing
> 
> so IRBM

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## Buddhistforlife

sha ah said:


> The Khorramshahr is allegedly related to the North Korean Hwasong-10 IRBM also called the Musudan 4 or BM-25. I'm guessing Iran contributed to the funding and research of the Hwasong-10, among other projects, and therefore reaped the rewards. Others say Iran purchased 18 Hwasong-10 missile sets from North Korea in 2005. Really who knows.
> 
> Some sources list the Khorramshahr as having a 1800 kg warheads with a range of 1000-2000
> The Hwasong-10 is listed as having a 650-1250 kg warhead with a range of 3000-4000 km
> 
> Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't it less a matter of fuel and more a matter of the size of the warhead which directly effects the range ? I'm assuming some missiles in Iran's arsenal have various sized warheads, with larger warheads reducing the range ?
> 
> Assuming a 650 kg conventional warhead at a range of 4000 km, with a decent margin of error, this would make the Khorramshahr more a weapon of terror than anything else. Of course in a city center with skyscrapers, even a dozen such missiles, especially with a submunitions (multiple warheads) can be absolutely devastating. It basically gives Iran the option to say to the Europeans or a potential rival "You bomb my country I'll bomb yours"
> 
> In my opinion Iran should stop beating around and bush and just come out with an ICBM or something much beefier than the Khorramshahr. They can still claim the ranger is 2500 KM I suppose.
> 
> However I'm guessing that Iran will not publicly display such a weapon since it would definitely help boost the American narrative about Iran being a threat and undermine Iran's efforts to purchase advanced fighter jets and weapons from Russia and China.


As far as I know ICBM cannot use conventional warhead. Iran must go nuclear to operate ICBM.


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## skyshadow

Buddhistforlife said:


> What are SLVs? Never heard about these before? Are their roles similar to ballistic missile?


SLV ( satellite launch vehicle ), if they are solid fuel then yes which Iran has, remember ballistic missile get turned to SLV not the other way around


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## skyshadow

*Army wants more buget to build strategic weapons *


*Iran capable of building strategic weapons: Defense minister*


“The Defense Ministry can build strategic weapons now, provided it is supported by the Parliament over the budget needs,” Brigadier General Amir Hatami said on Tuesday in a meeting with the number of Parliamentarians at the Defense Ministry’s achievements’ exhibition in Tehran.


https://en.mehrnews.com/news/162425/Iran-capable-of-building-strategic-weapons-Defense-minister

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## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> *Army wants more buget to build strategic weapons *
> 
> 
> *Iran capable of building strategic weapons: Defense minister*
> 
> 
> “The Defense Ministry can build strategic weapons now, provided it is supported by the Parliament over the budget needs,” Brigadier General Amir Hatami said on Tuesday in a meeting with the number of Parliamentarians at the Defense Ministry’s achievements’ exhibition in Tehran.
> 
> 
> https://en.mehrnews.com/news/162425/Iran-capable-of-building-strategic-weapons-Defense-minister


Why don't Iran develop nuclear weapons? It is already under American sanctions so developing nuclear weapons won't make a difference. Iran can always use article X like North Korea.


----------



## skyshadow

Buddhistforlife said:


> Why don't Iran develop nuclear weapons? It is already under American sanctions so developing nuclear weapons won't make a difference. Iran can always use article X like North Korea.


some say Iran already has them like Israel


----------



## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> some say Iran already has them like Israel


Ayatollah once openly told that Nuclear weapons are against Islam.

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## Mr Iran Eye

No to nuclear weapons madness


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## Sineva

Mithridates said:


> it is possibly a regular capsule launched cruise missile. it will be better than jask-2 i think, instead of a light missile like kowsar we can launch noor-gader from our subs.


Or better yet naval soumars

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## makranman

Buddhistforlife said:


> Ayatollah once openly told that Nuclear weapons are against Islam.


I think it was using them... need to check the exact wording.
also he might change his fitwa in private. who knows?


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## SalarHaqq

makranman said:


> I think it was using them... need to check the exact wording.
> also he might change his fitwa in private. who knows?



No.

1) In October 2019, Ayatollah Khamenei explained his view that using nuclear weapons is haram, but also that building and stockpiling them is wrong.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...forbidden-under-its-religion-tv-idUSKBN1WO15H




> “*Building and stockpiling* nuclear bombs is wrong and using it is haram (religiously forbidden) ... Although we have nuclear technology, Iran has firmly avoided it,” State TV quoted him as saying.



2) Ulema do not revise fatwas in private.

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## Sineva

sha ah said:


> The Khorramshahr is allegedly related to the North Korean Hwasong-10 IRBM also called the Musudan 4 or BM-25. I'm guessing Iran contributed to the funding and research of the Hwasong-10, among other projects, and therefore reaped the rewards. Others say Iran purchased 18 Hwasong-10 missile sets from North Korea in 2005. Really who knows.
> 
> Some sources list the Khorramshahr as having a 1800 kg warheads with a range of 1000-2000
> The Hwasong-10 is listed as having a 650-1250 kg warhead with a range of 3000-4000 km
> 
> Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't it less a matter of fuel and more a matter of the size of the warhead which directly effects the range ? I'm assuming some missiles in Iran's arsenal have various sized warheads, with larger warheads reducing the range ?
> 
> Assuming a 650 kg conventional warhead at a range of 4000 km, with a decent margin of error, this would make the Khorramshahr more a weapon of terror than anything else. Of course in a city center with skyscrapers, even a dozen such missiles, especially with a submunitions (multiple warheads) can be absolutely devastating. It basically gives Iran the option to say to the Europeans or a potential rival "You bomb my country I'll bomb yours"
> 
> In my opinion Iran should stop beating around and bush and just come out with an ICBM or something much beefier than the Khorramshahr. They can still claim the ranger is 2500 KM I suppose.
> 
> However I'm guessing that Iran will not publicly display such a weapon since it would definitely help boost the American narrative about Iran being a threat and undermine Iran's efforts to purchase advanced fighter jets and weapons from Russia and China.


The beauty of the khorramshar is that it effectively gives iran the best of both worlds in terms of delivery systems.Iran can quite convincingly claim that it is intended to be used as a purely medium ranged missile with the ability to carry a very large payload,in reality this is probably more likely to be something like 3 emad terminally guided warheads rather than one massive warhead.However it also gives iran a potential intermediate ranged nuclear delivery system with the capability to reach well into western europe carrying say a 300-500kg thermonuclear warhead. 
By comparison building an icbm would leave you with little to no plausible deniability as it would be very obvious what it was and what it would likely be intended for.


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## yavar

sha ah said:


> The Khorramshahr is allegedly related to the North Korean Hwasong-10 IRBM also called the Musudan 4 or BM-25. I'm guessing Iran contributed to the funding and research of the Hwasong-10, .



already shown similar nuclear missile ( NOT conventional one )



https://imgur.com/IHWQVad

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## skyshadow

yavar said:


> already shown similar nuclear missile ( NOT conventional one )
> 
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/IHWQVad


thanks you know what im taking about


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## Buddhistforlife

Mr Iran Eye said:


> No to nuclear weapons madness


I have read hundreds of articles on Iranian nuclear program. According to many articles, Iran got centrifuge parts from Pakistani scientist Dr Abdul Qadir Khan. North Korea is also helping Iran with Nuclear weapons and most Iranian missiles like Shahab missile are based on North Korean missiles.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–North_Korea_relations


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## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> thanks you know what im taking about


According to many sources, the Korean Mining and Development Trading company is responsible for providing nuclear and missile assistance to Iran. The picture below states that Iran buy North Korean products.


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## yavar

Buddhistforlife said:


> Pakistani scientist Dr Abdul Qadir Khan



Pakistan scientist Dr Abdul Qadir Khan was* big ZERO* when it comes to Iran nuclear........ program. just smok screen to keep IAEA busy for 15 years.
google sreach *Vyacheslav Danilenko former soviet thermonuclear weapon expert.*


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...ons-and-treasons.427176/page-68#post-11602044




this is United Nation nuclear agency not me

First
*UNSCR 2231 has recognized iran as nuclear power if you should know . to educate yourself please google search nuclear power country so find out what it mean by international law to understand it does not mean at all nuclear electricity .
UN website NOT ME
resolution 2231 (2015) - the United Nations
http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/RES/2231(2015)*

2nd: The 2011 IAEA Iran report : the 1990 Marivan large-scale nuclear test .
which guess what U.S has provided to IAEA the satellite pictures .
this is IAEA websilte NOT ME
https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/gov2011-65.pdf

3rd: also known as PMD ( previous military dimension )

Frontline- April 13, 1993 (Iran and the Bomb)





++++++

Iran Exploding-bridgewire Wire detonator (EBW)
*EBW references from IAEA Board of Governors’ reports*
http://www.atomicreporters.com/2014/02/iran-new-developments-exploding-bridge-wire-ebw/

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding-bridgewire_detonator*

*++++++*

*Project Midan: Developing and Building an Underground Nuclear Test Site in Iran *
*http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...uilding-an-underground-nuclear-test-site-in-i*

The secret part the Iran nuclear deal with US ( JCPOA )
U.S John kerry told IAEA not to publish the photos,
*Obama's secret Iran deals exposed*

+++++

People just google sreach Vycheslav V. Danilenko former Soviet scientist nuclear weapons expert .
our program had multi ................route, it would been even unwise and unreliableto to only relay one route, and follow one rute. and if you follow and study IRI Iran they are never interested in anything that the China offers them and always after Russian or western technology .
AQ Khan in our program was big zero compared to soviet union Vycheslav V. Danilenko thermonuclear weapon experts . AQ Khan was IAEA ghost chess before Israeli American quote Iran with real stuff

Vycheslav V. Danilenko former Soviet scientist nuclear weapons expert then you come to realization that* Abdul Qadeer Khan* story has almost zero rule in Iran program and AQ Khan it was just smoke screen cover up to keep IAEA busy by iranians to be used before we (iran ) got quote red handed

*Vyacheslav Danilenko*
NOT ME it is IAEA
he November 8, 2011 International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards report on Iran identifies a foreign expert that may have been important to Iran’s development of implosion detonation systems used in nuclear weapons. The Agency writes in the report that it has “strong indications that the development by Iran of the high explosives initiation system, and its development of the high speed diagnostic configuration used to monitor related experiments, were assisted by the work of a foreign expert who was not only knowledgeable in these technologies, but who, a Member State has informed the Agency, worked for much of his career with this technology in the nuclear weapon programme of the country of his origin.”

Information in other IAEA documents reviewed by ISIS identifies this person as Vycheslav V. Danilenko1. Born in 1934, Danilenko worked in the nuclear weapon complex at VNIITF, Chelyabinsk-70 for three decades. At VNIITF in the early 1960s, he was a member of the gas dynamics group and became involved in the study of the manufacture of synthetic diamonds. He worked with leading explosives experts in the Soviet nuclear weapons program and developed understanding of the fundamentals of detonation, including shock compression. In 1960, the head of VNIIF, B. I. Zababakhin, launched the institute’s research into the possibility of diamond synthesis by using the shock compression of graphite. Leading Soviet nuclear weapons experts were leaders in this effort in the early 1960s. In a recent book chapter Danilenko says that “experiments aimed at developing methods for synthesis were highly classified; for security reason, the results were initially contained only in secret reports from VNIITF.”2 According to IAEA officials, he likely had knowledge of the application of high explosives in the Soviet nuclear weapons program. Given his background and experience, this ex-Soviet nuclear weapons expert was well versed in key aspects of developing nuclear weapons.

Danilenko also has experience in the important area of the diagnostics of high explosions. His publications include work on high-speed photography and describe optical techniques by which fiber optic cables are used to capture the time of arrival of explosive shock waves.

After leaving VNIITF in either 1989 or 1991, Danilenko moved to Ukraine and established the company ALIT in Kiev, producing ultra-dispersed diamonds (UDD or nanodiamonds). He experienced economic difficulties by the mid-1990s. According to the IAEA, he contacted the Iranian embassy in mid-1995, offering his expertise on UDD. At the end of the year, he was contacted by Dr. Seyed Abbas Shahmoradi, who headed the Physics Research Center and also worked at the Sharif University of Technology.3 Danilenko signed a contract with Shahmoradi, according to IAEA documents.


+++++








Thanks to Obama for PMD

before Yukio Amano IAEA chief visit to Iran suddenly floods in Tehran province and Parchin area
* Sep 20, 2015*





then
samples taken by Iranian experts from Parchin military site with no IAEA inspectors present before close IAEA PMD case \ basically Iran curry out inspection itself and guess what Iran came out clean





and then

*IAEA Board of Governors closes Iran PMD case






*

CNN news analysis North Korea nuclear weapon program and miniaturization in 2013
people can draw their own conclusions






connect dots together then people can get good Idea where Iran nuclear program is and how it has come about


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## skyshadow

Buddhistforlife said:


> According to many sources, the Korean Mining and Development Trading company is responsible for providing nuclear and missile assistance to Iran. The picture below states that Iran buy North Korean products.
> 
> View attachment 661984


actually Iran did its first nuclear underground test almost 10 years before North Korea


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## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> actually Iran did its first nuclear underground test almost 10 years before North Korea


I think Iran should conduct open nuclear test now because it won't make a difference.

Saudi, America, Israel will hate Iran regardless of whether Iran has nukes or not. It doesn't make a difference because Iran will always be under US sanction so better Iran declare that it has nuclear weapons. On the contrary Iran's reputation might increase in the Islamic world due to nukes.

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## Sineva

Buddhistforlife said:


> I think Iran should conduct open nuclear test now because it won't make a difference.
> 
> Saudi, America, Israel will hate Iran regardless of whether Iran has nukes or not. It doesn't make a difference because Iran will always be under US sanction so better Iran declare that it has nuclear weapons. On the contrary Iran's reputation might increase in the Islamic world due to nukes.


You make a good point,however I think that for iran the acquisition of nuclear weapons should only be as a means to an end,not simply an end in itself.


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## skyshadow

Buddhistforlife said:


> I think Iran should conduct open nuclear test now because it won't make a difference.
> 
> Saudi, America, Israel will hate Iran regardless of whether Iran has nukes or not. It doesn't make a difference because Iran will always be under US sanction so better Iran declare that it has nuclear weapons. On the contrary Iran's reputation might increase in the Islamic world due to nukes.


i agree but sorry no can do, NTP


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## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> i agree but sorry no can do, NTP


Iran can always withdraw from NPT.


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## skyshadow

Buddhistforlife said:


> Iran can always withdraw from NPT.


which could happen as soon as next couple on months


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## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> which could happen as soon as next couple on months


Iranian conventional weapons are weak as hell. Iran's air force is backdated with backdated aircrafts. Only strategic missile system and nukes can save Iran.

Follow North Korea. They have poor army but good missile base.

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## skyshadow

Buddhistforlife said:


> Iranian conventional weapons are weak as hell. Iran's air force is backdated with backdated aircrafts. Only strategic missile system and nukes can save Iran.
> 
> Follow North Korea. They have poor army but good missile base.


i myself am in favor of nuclear Iran for years


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## Buddhistforlife

skyshadow said:


> i myself am in favor of nuclear Iran for years


It depends on Ayatollah. He is the supreme leader of Iran.

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## Raghfarm007

Buddhistforlife said:


> Iranian conventional weapons are weak as hell. Iran's air force is backdated with backdated aircrafts. Only strategic missile system and nukes can save Iran.
> 
> Follow North Korea. They have poor army but good missile base.



You sound like a little turd trole... why are you hanging around the Iranian forum and wasting people´s time with your crap?

Get lost to where you come from and mind your own country´s affairs

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## Sineva

Buddhistforlife said:


> Iranian conventional weapons are weak as hell. Iran's air force is backdated with backdated aircrafts. Only strategic missile system and nukes can save Iran.
> 
> Follow North Korea. They have poor army but good missile base.


Well my friend I guess that like a lot of things it depends on ones definition of "poor" or "weak".For instance,look at saudi and the gulf states they have spent [squandered] hundreds of billions of dollars collectively on the best weapons that their western overlords would sell them,yet they were ultimately fought to a complete standstill in yemen by the remnant of one of the poorest militaries in the region allied with a militia and armed for the most part with weapons supplied decades ago during the cold war.
Ultimately its just as important as to how one uses ones weapons as to how new they are,in addition theres more than one way to achieve a desired military outcome ie precision guided ballistic missiles vs manned aircraft.
Lastly who exactly does iran need to be "saved" from anyway?,is it the arabs....?,I`m sure pretty much everyone remembers what happened to the last dumb-son-of-an-arab who tried his luck there,he wound up bled white and bankrupted to the point that he couldnt even service the interest payments on the tens of billions of dollars in loans he had to take out just to stay on the defensive.Ultimately tho he turned on his neighbor and former ally kuwait.....and the rest as they say was history.
As for the israelis,well its pretty obvious that despite all of netanyahoos bluster he isnt willing to risk a war with iran over its presence in syria let alone attack iran directly.
Now that just pretty much leaves america of course,but even there there seems to be little appetite for risking a war with iran,I mean strangely despite trump threatening to attack dozens of sites all over iran if it dared to so much as retaliate in any way at all against us forces in iraq for the murder of soleimani,yet when push came to shove and iran hit ain al assad and the us forces stationed there.......guess what..,thats right trump backed down merely tweeting "alls well".So it doesnt look like any of irans enemies want to risk an actual war with it for some strange reason,I wonder why........?

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## TruthHurtz

Raghfarm007 said:


> You sound like a little turd trole... why are you hanging around the Iranian forum and wasting people´s time with your crap?
> 
> Get lost to where you come from and mind your own country´s affairs



Relax ffs

What he's saying isn't untrue

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## 925boy

Buddhistforlife said:


> If Iran already has a 4000 km IRBM then it can hit Entire Europe in the West and South East Asia in the East.
> 
> Iran's current missiles already covers Turkey, Russia in the West and India in the East.
> 
> However Saudi has IRBM and possibly ICBMs too.


are you trying to compare Iranian BM capability and competency against that of Saudis???? if you dont choose Iran you chose the losing side. Just saying..Iran is VERY familiar and used to missiles, way more than the Saudis are...

Possession and proficiency are 2 separate things.

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## 925boy

Buddhistforlife said:


> Iran and Saudi are next door neighbour. I think SRBMs are enough. At best you can throw some Shahab-3 missiles.


you think conflict between Iran and Saudi will be that simple?? you're oversimplifying.

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## Buddhistforlife

925boy said:


> are you trying to compare Iranian BM capability and competency against that of Saudis???? if you dont choose Iran you chose the losing side. Just saying..Iran is VERY familiar and used to missiles, way more than the Saudis are...
> 
> Possession and proficiency are 2 separate things.














Saudi ballistic missiles. It looks like these are IRBMs. Not sure though.


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## Philosopher

Buddhistforlife said:


> Saudi ballistic missiles. It looks like these are IRBMs. Not sure though.



These are antiquated Chinese systems which they have in very limited quantities. Unless housing nuclear warheads, they are not very useful military weapons.

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## TheImmortal

Buddhistforlife said:


> View attachment 662225
> 
> 
> View attachment 662226
> 
> 
> Saudi ballistic missiles. It looks like these are IRBMs. Not sure though.



Yeah and they probably have a CEP of 1-2KM making them useless besides throwing them at large military bases or cities.

Also limited quantity and older technology. Future Iranian ABM shield could intercept likely 75% of those missiles fired.


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## 925boy

Buddhistforlife said:


> As far as I know ICBM cannot use conventional warhead. .


This is not an established fact yet....and if it isnt, then you cant conclude correctly that Iran cant go ICBM without going nuclear first..


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## 925boy

Buddhistforlife said:


> Iranian conventional weapons are weak as hell.


Lol....says someone who doesnt know much about Iranian military capabilties. Iran possesses at least decent capabilities in any military sphere, just mention it. Iran's conventional weapons have deterred the world's sole superpower till date, so they have proven their worth through action, so talk is cheap.


> Iran's air force is backdated with backdated aircrafts.


Um...over generalization...because maybe you dunno too much about it. Iran still possesses a sizeable and potent airforce...problem is, you dunno the full story since decades ago...many have been brought back to active duty status, many have been upgraded, new weapons have been developed...but i dont think you say any of this, and thats why you're saying this false BS.


> Only strategic missile system and nukes can save Iran.


Well Iran has them....and thats not all Iran needs..Iran also needs strong ground forces....how can it actually prevent or stall an invasion? you think Iran will only have ot fire missiles during a war? Iran will need alot of type sof military support domestically to sustain any war effort.


> Follow North Korea. They have poor army but good missile base.


Can Iran also follow North Korea to the Chinese surplus funding opportunity also??? Dont tell half stories...Russia and China have helped North Korea in all spheres, even under these stringent UN sanctions..but they haven't given Iran similar support, because doing so doesnt support their direct interests as much as supporting North Korea does..different realities, so its apples and oranges comparison you're doing here.

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## Messerschmitt

The names of the two missiles to be revealed are Shahid Haj Qasem (BM) and Shahid Abolmahdi (CM).

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## Buddhistforlife

925boy said:


> Lol....says someone who doesnt know much about Iranian military capabilties. Iran possesses at least decent capabilities in any military sphere, just mention it. Iran's conventional weapons have deterred the world's sole superpower till date, so they have proven their worth through action, so talk is cheap.
> 
> Um...over generalization...because maybe you dunno too much about it. Iran still possesses a sizeable and potent airforce...problem is, you dunno the full story since decades ago...many have been brought back to active duty status, many have been upgraded, new weapons have been developed...but i dont think you say any of this, and thats why you're saying this false BS.
> 
> Well Iran has them....and thats not all Iran needs..Iran also needs strong ground forces....how can it actually prevent or stall an invasion? you think Iran will only have ot fire missiles during a war? Iran will need alot of type sof military support domestically to sustain any war effort.
> 
> Can Iran also follow North Korea to the Chinese surplus funding opportunity also??? Dont tell half stories...Russia and China have helped North Korea in all spheres, even under these stringent UN sanctions..but they haven't given Iran similar support, because doing so doesnt support their direct interests as much as supporting North Korea does..different realities, so its apples and oranges comparison you're doing here.


Most Iranian fighter jets are from the Shah Pahlavi era. Su-24, Chengdu J7, Mirage F-1 etc these are old aircrafts.


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## triangle

http://www.presstv.com/Live


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296337485547487232

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## triangle

4th gen Turbofan engine: 700 kg of thrust to power up to a 4000 kg aircraft
Uses single crystal turbine blades
Name: Jahsh 700

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## Blue In Green

That's one big cruise missile!

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## triangle

Shahid Qasem Suleimani BM has most probably 1000+ km range with detachable warhead (atmospheric) and uses carbon weaving technology like on the raad-500.

Edit: not so sure about the carbon weaving technology, looks like metal is being used.

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## Sina-1

triangle said:


> 4th gen Turbofan engine: 700 kg of thrust to power up to a 4000 kg aircraft
> Uses single crystal turbine blades
> Name: Jahsh 700
> 
> View attachment 662298


60 000 ft Cruise altitude!!!!

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## triangle

Qasem Suleimani BM uses same technology as on the raad-500 but is much larger with a range of up to 1400 km

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## Messerschmitt

triangle said:


> Shahid Qasem Suleimani BM has most probably 1000+ km range with detachable warhead (atmospheric) and uses carbon weaving technology like on the raad-500.


It was announced that it can reach a range of up to 1400 km.

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## triangle

CM almohandis uses a longer engine, could be a copy of the complex engine of the KH-55

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## triangle

Messerschmitt said:


> It was announced that it can reach a range of up to 1400 km.




Perhaps a Shahab 3 replacement. With 1400 km, it can reach all of Israel while being relatively cheap.

Edit: I'm not sure about it being the replacement of the shahab 3, but it is produced with the intend to use it against Israel primarily.

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## Sina-1



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## Messerschmitt

Shahid Haj Qasem: Fateh-class ballistic missile with a range of 1400 km
Shahid Abulmahdi: Long-range ASCM with a range of 1000 km

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## triangle

+1000 km AShCM (from 300km to more than 1000 km)

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## Sina-1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296347783054667776

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296345766085173248

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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt



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## Shams313

Messerschmitt said:


>


Is that the long rance anti ship cruise missiles..???

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## Blue In Green

Shams313 said:


> Is that the long rance anti ship cruise missiles..???


 Yes, 1,000km

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296349807762714624

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## triangle

Pinpoint accuracy on the new BM.

The body of the new BM doesn't look like the Raad-500, but more like the Qiam, which would indicate a liquid fuel propellant. But then again its use of fins rather than vanes indicate a possible solid fuel propellant.

The warhead is detachable and looks like it doesn't go out into space(endoatmospheric)

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## Blue In Green

triangle said:


> Pinpoint accuracy on the new BM



Can we assume to see volume production on the new 1,400km missile?

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## Messerschmitt

http://defanews.ir/node/515577
http://defanews.ir/node/515569
http://defanews.ir/node/515565
http://defanews.ir/node/515561

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## triangle

Blue In Green said:


> Can we assume to see volume production on the new 1,400km missile?



Depends on a number of factors, but it looks promising. Basically Shahab-3 range in a smaller and lighter package and most probably also cheaper. But more importantly, much more accurate than basic Shahab-3

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## GWXP

triangle said:


> Pinpoint accuracy on the new BM.
> 
> The body of the new BM doesn't look like the Raad-500, but more like the Qiam, which would indicate a liquid fuel propellant. But then again its use of fins rather than vanes indicate a possible solid fuel propellant.
> 
> The warhead is detachable and looks like it doesn't go out into space(endoatmospheric)


new ballistic missile shows black SMOKE during the launch meaning new solid fuel

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## GWXP

Very few nations in the world build turbofan engines. 

*Iran can be proud of itself*

After seeing this turbofan engine which is comparable to FJ33, I now believe that *Iran can someday design an engine comparable to AL-31 or RD-33*

as well as design *small efficient turbofan engines for 2500-3000km cruise missiles* in very near future---Iran now has the technology

This engine can be used in small airplanes and potentially very large drones

New high precision ballistic missile with maneuvering warhead means that no enemy airfield will be safe in the radius of 1400km from Iranian borders (and note that F-35 combat radius is only 1390km)

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## Messerschmitt

Messerschmitt said:


> http://defanews.ir/node/515577
> http://defanews.ir/node/515569
> http://defanews.ir/node/515565
> http://defanews.ir/node/515561


Is that a miniature Fateh-class missile in the second video next to the Fateh-110 with the writing "Fateh" on it?


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## Websorber

*Unveiling of a new Iranian ballistic missile named after late General Qasem Soleimani*


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## skyshadow

*#i am revolutionary written on Talayeh +1000 KM anti-ship cruise missile for the first time in the world *

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## NaCon

triangle said:


> Pinpoint accuracy on the new BM.
> 
> The body of the new BM doesn't look like the Raad-500, but more like the Qiam, which would indicate a liquid fuel propellant. But then again its use of fins rather than vanes indicate a possible solid fuel propellant.
> 
> The warhead is detachable and looks like it doesn't go out into space(endoatmospheric)


its uses a solid propellant, it is identifiable by the thick white smoke.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296368034106540032^ Shahid Haj Qasem ballistic missile performance:

Re-entry speed: Mach 12
Terminal speed: Mach 5
Warhead weight: 500 kg
Range: 1400-1800 km

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## triangle

@PeeD is that a thrust termination port, or just an acces hatch?

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## PeeD

triangle said:


> View attachment 662377
> 
> 
> @PeeD is that a thrust termination port, or just an acces hatch?



No.

Thrust termination was last used on Sejil-1 with its unguided RV.

It would add no capability to a MaRV missile except for lower minimum range.

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## skyshadow

so Shahid Haj Qasem ballistic missile actually has a range of 1800 km

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## triangle

Additional specs of the QS BM

7 tons weight
11 meters in length

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## Philosopher

As we had predicated, Iran now has a compact, cheap solid fuelled anti-Israel missile. A very significant development.

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## sha ah

The Khorramshahr missile is similar to the North Korean Musudan / Hwasong 10 / BM-25. IMO Iran needs to come out with something like Hwasong-14. With that Iran would be able to reach Washington DC, even from Tehran. 

I'm sure that Iran already has the blueprints and the capability, however right now the economic and political climate is not ideal for such a reveal. Iran's economy is currently in recession. However according to the world bank, in 2 years Iran's economy will grow. At the same time, right now Iran is looking to get rid of the UN embargo which effectively prevents Iran from purchasing weapons from Russia, China. 

Revealing a long range ballistic missile and going too far with the nuclear program would prevent Iran from being able to purchase new fighter jets and advanced military technology. However when the time is right, I'm sure that Iran will reveal an ICBM to the world.

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## yavar

Iran Unveiling Achievements of Defense industry Day 2020: Martyr Haj Qasem ballistic missile ‌ Range 1400-1800 km ( 12 Mach speed), Long-range Naval land attack cruise missile Martyr Abu-Mahdi ( Naval Talayeh) range 1000+ km, light turbofan engine Jahsh-700

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## Philosopher

Some interesting details from the Press TV video below:

Haj Qassem missile can destroy fortified targets (even underground). It can be quipped with (optical? Radar?) systems that can allow it to also target *sea based* targets.

Abu Mahdi cruise missiles have twice the destructive power compared to the previous versions. It can be used effectively against 3000-5000ton sea based targets. A seeker has been designed for the missile which utilised 20 different techniques in dealing with electronic warfare.

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/08/20/632199/Iran-defense-achievements-missiles-

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## Philosopher

When considering the ability of our enemies to defend against these new Iranian missiles, one must remember it's not just a qualitative assessment, but a quantity one as well. So not only are their missile defences not very capable of dealing with these new Iranian missiles, but even if they could do so to a meaningful degree, they could never outproduce Iran in terms of missiles. 

In case of a conflict, these missile defences will simultaneously be targeted alongside the assets the are meant to be protecting. They will be made useless very quickly. And this is true even if we were to consider one type of missile such as Haj Qassem. Of course in reality the enemies will be faced with much more.

The zionists made a big blunder by focusing so much on missile defence. They lacked the foresight to see just how the Iranian missile capability would grow. Now they're stuck in this badly losing catching up game, and that will not change.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296358418597502976

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296421180480552960


Philosopher said:


> When considering the ability of our enemies to defend against these new Iranian missiles, one must remember it's not just a qualitative assessment, but a quantity one as well. So not only are their missile defences not very capable of dealing with these new Iranian missiles, but even if they could do so to a meaningful degree, they could never outproduce Iran in terms of missiles.
> 
> In case of a conflict, these missile defences will simultaneously be targeted alongside the assets the are meant to be protecting. They will be made useless very quickly. And this is true even if we were to consider one type of missile such as Haj Qassem. Of course in reality the enemies will be faced with much more.
> 
> The zionists made a big blunder by focusing so much on missile defence. They lacked the foresight to see just how the Iranian missile capability would grow. Now they're stuck in this badly losing catching up game, and that will not change.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296358418597502976

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## sha ah

The DF-3's have a long range (3000-4000km) and a large warhead (2000+kg) but the Saudi's have never even launched one before and their accuracy is terrible (300 m CEP) They have about 30 of these and 10 launchers. They're basically only good for killing civilians in high traffic / congested areas but they're so useless in terms of accuracy that the Saudi's didn't even use them to retaliate against Saddam in the early 90's.

They allegedly purchased more modern DF-21's in 2014. Their accuracy is much better (30 meter CEP). Still they have a limited amount. In a war against Iran, the reach of these missiles would be pretty much pointless. Iran has hundreds if not thousands of missiles with newer technology that can hit targets in Saudi Arabia with pin point accuracy.

The Saudi's have their airforce but Iran would no doubt immediately target their communications, command and control centers along with airfields and runways. The Saudi military is extremely centralized structurally. Units cannot so much as move an inch without authorization from the top. Therefore they would suffer badly if Iran targeted their communications HQ's and command centers. Of course the Saudi's have enough jets to launch airstrikes but Iran has excellent air defenses so I'm guessing Saudi's would lose some jets.

The difference is that Iran's military doctrine is based on defense and most of Iran's missile launchers and air defense batteries are hidden deep underground in secret bunkers. Some are underneath mountain ranges and they're so deep that even bunker busters can't get to them. If you think about it 30+ missiles is not that much, especially with their lack of accuracy. Iran has hundreds if not thousands that would devastate the Saudi's. Iran simply has too much volume and accuracy when it comes to missiles and Iran's air defenses are too potent.

Iran and Saudi Arabia don't share borders so it would just be airstrikes and missiles exchanged and in that regard, just with its massive arsenal of quality missiles Iran would win. If Iran could significantly reduce the capability of the Saudi airforce, I'm pretty sure the Houthi's will begin conquering Saudi territory with relative ease. The Saudi military sucks because the royals are afraid of their own military so they don't promote officers based on competence and capability, leadership skills, etc. Rather they promote soldiers based on loyalty and family ties alone, so their military, even with the best weapons money can buy, is garbage.

The Houthi's even recently gained a large chunk of territory (3200 km2) from the Saudi's.






They have a long range and a large warhead



Buddhistforlife said:


> View attachment 662225
> 
> 
> View attachment 662226
> 
> 
> Saudi ballistic missiles. It looks like these are IRBMs. Not sure though.





Buddhistforlife said:


> View attachment 662225
> 
> 
> View attachment 662226
> 
> 
> Saudi ballistic missiles. It looks like these are IRBMs. Not sure though.

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## Philosopher

According to this tweet some other systems were unveiled but not revealed publicly (not sure if missile related)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296435877351247872

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296368034106540032

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296358418597502976

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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> According to this tweet some other systems were unveiled but not revealed publicly (not sure if missile related)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296435877351247872


Same thing happened last year with the unveiling of the Bavar-373. There was a public unveiling and a secret unveiling with the Oghab system present for certain 'eyes' only.

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## yavar



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## makranman

Philosopher said:


> According to this tweet some other systems were unveiled but not revealed publicly (not sure if missile related)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296435877351247872



can we expect an abm from these? (mostly from dezful name... you know, since they had sooo many missiles hitting there cities)


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## 925boy

Buddhistforlife said:


> Most Iranian fighter jets are from the Shah Pahlavi era. Su-24, Chengdu J7, Mirage F-1 etc these are old aircrafts.


Age is important, but its not the only important fact- what about pilot skill levels? what about aircraft upgrades? New jets wont win you war, ask US and ISrael..


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## Philosopher

makranman said:


> can we expect an abm from these? (mostly from dezful name... you know, since they had sooo many missiles hitting there cities)



I think an ABM system is certainly in development but I am not sure if any of the above systems are that.

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## Blue In Green

Once Iran acquires a competent modern air-wing, their offensive/defensive apparatus will be more or less complete and they would have one of the most potent operationally lethal/retaliatory capabilities in the region. Let's hope Iran gets Su-30s and Su-35s in large (or respectable) numbers. Then it would be REALLY stupid for neighboring nations to try and pull any military moves on Iran.

What needs to be stated here is the 1,400km Hajj Qassem Soleimani Quasi-BM is a cheap (assumedly) to produce long-range weapon, one that Iran can fabricate in large volumes within short periods of time and adequately field. This effectively would allot Iran the ability to conduct tactical operations against any Israeli or longer range enemy asset using FATEH like accuracy and reliability at any time they choose. Such a capability would be spell utter disaster for militaries not equipped to deal with such deadly munitions. I suspect this missile will also be fitted into its own underground canister sooner or later. Most significant point here is the 1,400km range, that puts all of Israel under Iran's FATEH tactical BM range. Now Iran has two FATEH like missiles that can reach targets 1,000+kms away, the Dezful FAE and now the Hajj Qassem Q-BM.

Some cursory information on the Hajj Qassem Qausi-BM reveals its kinematic performance.
-Mach 12 atmospheric reentry speed (very difficult to impossible for modern ABM systems to counter)
-Mach 5 terminal approach (bunker busting capability)
-Easily produced and fielded
-FATEH level accuracy and reliability

Ladies and gentlemen, this missile the essentially the culmination in Iran's decades of effort in basing its current military paradigm of deterrence via missiles. Such a capability is nothing short of a modern-marvel imo and something to be proud of!

This missile is only a foot note though. Larger, heavier and more advanced versions of this missile will come out over the years. 

We're experiencing an indigenous Iranian weapons renaissance of sorts.

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## triangle

skyshadow said:


>




I did some calculations about the size of the missile using MS paint and the 11 meter length given.
Width of missile body: *~92 cm*
Width of warhead without fins: *~67 cm*
Length of warhead: *~271 cm*
Width of missile body+stabilizing fins at the bottom: *~136 cm*
Margin of error: *~1-2 cm
*
Also the numbers 99-02 on the missile might indicate a production date of somewhere in April-May 2020
*



*

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## triangle

Blue In Green said:


> one that Iran can fabricate in large volumes within short periods of time



I have my doubts about this statement. This new missile uses steel body casings and is roughly as large and heavy as a Qiam which is a larger and heavier missile(fully loaded) than the relatively light Fateh. Also this new missile puts it in the early Shahab-3 category, of which there are still a lot of them. This would mean that the annual production level is lower than the Fateh series, both in need and production- capability/cost/capacity and closer to the production rate of the Qiam(which IMO has a production rate of ~120 per year on average).



Blue In Green said:


> Most significant point here is the 1,400km range, that puts all of Israel under Iran's FATEH tactical BM range. Now Iran has two FATEH like missiles that can reach targets 1,000+kms away, the Dezful FAE and now the Hajj Qassem Q-BM.



While I regard the Dezful as a Fateh class missile, I don't regard the Raad-500 and the QS missiles as Fateh class missiles. They are too different in my opinion (no vortex generator, carbon composite casings in the case of the Raad-500).

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## Blue In Green

triangle said:


> I have my doubts about this statement. This new missile uses steel body casings and is roughly as large and heavy as a Qiam which is a larger and heavier missile(fully loaded) than the relatively light Fateh. Also this new missile puts it in the early Shahab-3 category, of which there are still a lot of them. This would mean that the annual production level is lower than the Fateh series, both in need and production- capability/cost/capacity and closer to the production rate of the Qiam(which IMO has a production rate of ~120 per year on average).
> 
> 
> 
> While I regard the Dezful as a Fateh class missile, I don't regard the Raad-500 and the QS missiles as Fateh class missiles. They are too different in my opinion (no vortex generator, carbon composite casings in the case of the Raad-500).



I meant it to be more of figurative comparison rather than a literal lol but I agree with your assessment bro. The Hajj Qassem BM feels like a FATEH missile (imo) given its Qausi-BM nature and general characteristics. I guess that's what I'm really trying to say. A beefed up FATEH that bridges the gap between the FATEH and more traditional BMs in Iran's arsenal.

Personally I can only hope that Iran's missile production output is as numerous as I think it is. Such a weapon will provide Iran the capability it needs to, well, destroy Israel's ability to conduct air-force operations and quell their conventional means of retaliation. This is, so-to-speak, a silver-bullet of sorts for Iran.

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## triangle

Blue In Green said:


> Personally I can only hope that Iran's missile production output is as numerous as I think it is.



How much do you estimate Iran has?


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## Blue In Green

@PeeD 

Hey brother, hopefully you're in good health and spirits!!!

I just wanted to get your opinion on this recent groundbreaking development. Just how dangerous is this new missile for Israel and the U.S. and how will this possibly change their approach to Iran?

Does this grant Iran a new level of detterence?

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## skyshadow

triangle said:


> I did some calculations about the size of the missile using MS paint and the 11 meter length given.
> Width of missile body: *~92 cm*
> Width of warhead without fins: *~67 cm*
> Width of missile body+stabilizing fins at the bottom: *~136 cm*
> Margin of error: *1 cm
> *
> Also the numbers 99-02 on the missile might indicate a production date of somewhere in April-May 2020
> *
> View attachment 662476
> *


with your calculations a full carbon fiber model could easily get it to 3000 KM that's impressive

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## Blue In Green

triangle said:


> How much do you estimate Iran has?



Honestly I've always assumed that Iran's missile production output per-year is in the hundreds of missiles that would account for different makes and types. Some missiles would have higher production given their cheaper and easier to manufacture nature.

If we're talking about Iran's total missile arsenal, I would only imagine that it has to be in the 4,000-5,000 range if not more. Some people say its over 8,000 and others say it approaches 10,000 (which is a little too outlandish for me lol).

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## PeeD

Blue In Green said:


> @PeeD
> 
> Hey brother, hopefully you're in good health and spirits!!!
> 
> I just wanted to get your opinion on this recent groundbreaking development. Just how dangerous is this new missile for Israel and the U.S. and how will this possibly change their approach to Iran?
> 
> Does this grant Iran a new level of detterence?



Thanks brother.

Basically its a hypersonic weapon that puts all enemy superbased airpower at risk. Very difficult to counter, quite cheap and can be used in "missile farms".

It is a new class and will grow with time. Heavier warhead and 2000km range are possibile in future.

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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> I have my doubts about this statement. This new missile uses steel body casings and is roughly as large and heavy as a Qiam which is a larger and heavier missile(fully loaded) than the relatively light Fateh.



Those are true, but not necessarily a barrier to large volume production of this missile. Size is not really an issue in this case. Qiam itself is not much bigger than the likes of Zolfaghar and Dezfoul. Regarding the steel casing, Iran has been producing those for the likes of Fateh for a long time. Therefore what matters most here is this missile will be produced based on the existing production lines that were already there for the likes of Zolfiqar and Dezfoul. It's just a continuation process. 

Given how quickly Iran upgrades its missile, none of these missile will truly see great production since the next version is just around the corner. I am expecting next year, IRGC will reveal a "Raad-ified" version of this using carbon fibre etc. Given how strategic this SHQ missile and its next version will be, I could see Iran expanding the production line of these systems.

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## triangle

skyshadow said:


> with your calculations a full carbon fiber model could easily get it to 3000 KM that's impressive



What formula do you use? I once calculated an ICBM with 12000 km range and a warhead of 3x500 kg having a weight of 33 tons with a length of 17-22 meters and a width of 1,5 meters based on the parameters of the Raad-500 . Don't know how realistic that is haha

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## 925boy

Philosopher said:


> I think an ABM system is certainly in development but I am not sure if any of the above systems are that.


I'm pretty sure that an upgraded Bavar 373 = Good ABM system already...

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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> large volume production



It all depends on the numbers for which we only have our only estimations and thus is very relative. IMO don't expect more than 180 yearly production run for this new missile. IMO it's going to be near 120, according to my estimates.

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## triangle

As I was watching the livestream this morning, I heard Rouhani saying that he pushed the defense minister to invest more in cruise missiles. Who in Iran decides what weapon gets developed and produced and why? Is it the SL, the General staff, the individual branches of the armed forces, the president or the ministry of defense? It's all confusing to me.

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## skyshadow

triangle said:


> What formula do you use? I once calculated an ICBM with 12000 km range and a warhead of 3x500 kg having a weight of 33 tons with a length of 17-22 meters and a width of 1,5 meters based on the parameters of the Raad-500 . Don't know how realistic that is haha



damn, you went too far  X * 1.67, 3.5 ton in weight and 1800 Km * 1.67 = ~3006 km respectively

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## triangle

skyshadow said:


> damn, you went too far  X * 1.67, 3.5 ton in weight and 1800 Km * 1.67 = ~3006 km respectively



What is X and what is 1.67?


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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> It all depends on the numbers for which we only have our only estimations and thus is very relative. IMO don't expect more than 180 yearly production run for this new missile. IMO it's going to be near 120, according to my estimates.



These are highly conservative figures. The underlying industrial capability for the Fateh line is certainly more than that. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, given this strategic jump we have seen, I expect to see the production line to expand. The Fateh family has now evolved into a proper zionist hitting system. This system combined with Khoramshahr can now replace almost all other longer range missiles, with the exception of Sejill which will have a special role to play.

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## Philosopher

925boy said:


> I'm pretty sure that an upgraded Bavar 373 = Good ABM system already...



Bavar does have some AB capability, but it is not a dedicated AB systems. A dedicated AB defence will come.

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## skyshadow

*Breaking news :Colombian President Ivan Duque said on Thursday that Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro’s administration is looking to buy Iranian missiles and is handing over weapons made in Russia and Belarus to Colombian armed groups.*
*








https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ssiles-colombian-president-says-idUSKBN25G29E*

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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> These are highly conservative figures


Based on (your) non existing missile numbers/estimation? 



Philosopher said:


> The underlying industrial capability for the Fateh line is certainly more than that.


Again, based on what number?



Philosopher said:


> Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, given this strategic jump we have seen



What strategic jump? I only see improvement in missile capability, accuracy, production method, launching method, lowered production cost in some instances etc. All tactical and not strategic IMO.


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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> As I was watchmaking the livestream this morning, I heard Rouhani saying that he pushed the defense minister to invest more in cruise missiles. Who in Iran decides what weapon gets developed and produced and why? Is it the SL, the General staff, the individual branches of the armed forces, the president or the ministry of defense? It's all confusing to me.



Rouhani is a politician, not a military man so he should not make such demands. It is more of a political stunt to try and calm down certain people in the west. In reality it is the Supreme leader and IRGC that control the missile program.

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## Blue In Green

triangle said:


> As I was watchmaking the livestream this morning, I heard Rouhani saying that he pushed the defense minister to invest more in cruise missiles. Who in Iran decides what weapon gets developed and produced and why? Is it the SL, the General staff, the individual branches of the armed forces, the president or the ministry of defense? It's all confusing to me.



Patarames had a tweet in regards to what Rouhani says stating that he thinks what Rouhani had to say is of no real consequence given that he isn't a military man. 


Philosopher said:


> Bavar does have some AB capability, but it is not a dedicated AB systems. A dedicated AB defence will come.



Hard not to be outright giddy given how much Iran spoils us with all these unveilings xD.

Amir Hatami is growing on me, I like him.


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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> Based on (your) non existing missile numbers/estimation?



Based on common sense. I am not naive enough to believe Iran's capacity to produce missile in that family is around 120-180 per year. You talk of estimations as if yours are based on anything sound. 



> Again, based on what number?



As above.




> What strategic jump? I only see improvement in missile capability, accuracy, production method, launching method, lowered production cost in some instances etc. All tactical and not strategic IMO.



Then you need to pay more attention. It started from Dezfoul which had (barely) the range to reach Israel and now the Fateh family has reached the range to properly strike Israel from Iran itself. This is the strategic jump. Meaning the availability of a compact, cheap/easy to mass produce solid fuelled system able to directly hit Israel.

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## PeeD

As I see it, some portion of Fateh-110 production line has switched to Haj Qasem. Probably the -D is out and only Fathe Mobin, Hormoz-1/2 and Khalije Fars remain in production.
Old high maintenance versions that could not be container buried are out.
IRGC anyway orders less due to Raad-500.

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## Philosopher

Blue In Green said:


> Hard not to be outright giddy given how much Iran spoils us with all these unveilings xD.
> 
> Amir Hatami is growing on me, I like him.



Yes, however it is very important we do not become content. Our defence industry is nothing compared to what should become. Good news is, our capability will only continue to expand.

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## skyshadow

triangle said:


> What is X and what is 1.67?



current range * 1.67 boost in range as the result of full carbon fiber body its form Raad-500

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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> Based on common sense. I am not naive enough to believe Iran's capacity to produce missile in that family is around 120-180 per year. You talk of estimations as if yours are based on anything sound.



You have not provided an estimation or number that is reasonable, based on the little information we have.



Philosopher said:


> Then you need to pay more attention. It started from Dezfoul which had (barely) the range to reach Israel and now the Fateh family has reached the range to properly strike Israel from Iran itself. This is the strategic jump. Meaning the availability of a compact, cheap/easy to mass produce solid fuelled system able to directly hit Israel.



I feel like we are getting into the semantics here. By your logic, the Shahab-3 was the strategic jump because it was the first BM that could reach Israel.

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## triangle

skyshadow said:


> current range * 1.67 boost in range as the result of full carbon fiber body its form Raad-500



And where do you get 1.67 from?


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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> You have not provided an estimation or number that is reasonable, based on the little information we have.



I am not in the habit of wasting my time creating estimation based on pure conjecture .I merely debunked your claims based on common sense.




> By your logic, the Shahab-3 was the strategic jump because in was the first BM to reach Israel.



As I have explained to you already, the Fateh family is a more compact, easy to mass produce, cheaper, ready to fire etc and not comparable to the liquid fuelled systems like Shahab. When we talk of a strategic jump, we are talking in this context of the growing capability of the Fateh line. Frankly this is quite obvious, not sure why it even needs explaining.


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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> I am not in the habit of wasting my time creating estimation based on pure conjecture .I merely debunked your claims based on common sense.



Debunked my claims without providing numbers or estimation? Common sense is not a valid argument.



Philosopher said:


> As I have explained to you already, the Fateh family is a more compact, easy to mass produce, cheaper, ready to fire etc and not comparable to the liquid fuelled systems like Shahab. When we talk of a strategic jump, we are talking in this context of the growing capability of the Fateh line. Frankly this is quite obvious, not sure why it even needs explaining.



Then, we disagree on whether the QS BM is a strategic jump or not.

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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> Debunked my claims without providing numbers or estimation? Common sense is not a valid argument.



Your claims are based on no real substance. I'll take common sense over that. And like I said, I do not waste my time creating numbers using hot air as my basis.



> Then, we disagree on whether the QS BM is a strategic jump or not.



The facts are (objective facts), that Iran now has the capability to target the zionists from its soil using systems that are more capable qualitatively and quantitatively speaking compared to the likes of Shahab. Prior to this, Iran's options were much more limited and reliance on Hezbollah's arsenal as a mass attack on the zionists was much more important. Today, things are changing, with the mass production of these new systems, Iran itself can pose a major saturated attack against the zionist. Not only that, these systems are a major threat to the zionists *qualitatively* speaking given their difficulty in countering them using their current missile defences. This is what we mean by a strategic jump.


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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> This is what we mean by a strategic jump.



That's is your own definition of strategic jump. My definition of strategic jump in Iran's case is the unveiling of an IRBM/ICBM or nuke test/nuke propulsion system and the likes of it. Not improving a capability that Iran already had. Like I said, we disagree.

I urge you to stop wasting our energy on these type of disagreements. Put it into something rather useful for this community like the numbers and estimations I've provided earlier in this thread. After all we are all defense enthusiasts.

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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> That's is your own definition of strategic jump. My definition of strategic jump in Iran's case is the unveiling of an IRBM/ICBM or nuke test/nuke propulsion system and the likes of it. Not improving a capability that Iran already had. Like I said, we disagree.



Instead of relying on this naive definition based on a hypothetic nuclear tipped ICBMs (very unlikely to occur overtly), focus more on realistic leaps that are happening and whether those are strategic/game changing or not. I have already explained to you why this missile is of that nature.



> I urge you to stop wasting our energy on these type of disagreements. Put it into something rather useful for this community like the numbers and estimations I've provided earlier in this thread. After all we are all defense enthusiasts.



There is nothing more to say about your numbers. I have addressed them already.


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## skyshadow

triangle said:


> And where do you get 1.67 from?


Fatteh 313 * Raad-500 = 167% boost in range


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## Philosopher

Looks like a meteorite:

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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> Instead of relying on this naive definition based on a hypothetic nuclear tipped ICBMs



I haven't mentioned testing a nuclear tipped ICBM. You are misrepresenting me. And Testing a nuclear tipped ICBM is a naive definition of strategic jump for Iran? Really? And a new 1400km range BM which Iran already has lots of them in the same range, is a strategic jump? There is no absolute foundation in your argument.



Philosopher said:


> focus more on realistic leaps that are happening and whether those are strategic/game changing or not



Ah so you've conceded.



Philosopher said:


> There is nothing more to say about your numbers. I have addressed them already.



Because you haven't provided your own estimations and calculations.

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## 925boy

triangle said:


> As I was watching the livestream this morning, I heard Rouhani saying that he pushed the defense minister to invest more in cruise missiles. Who in Iran decides what weapon gets developed and produced and why? Is it the SL, the General staff, the individual branches of the armed forces, the president or the ministry of defense? It's all confusing to me.


SL sometimes gives his own instructions and specific requests for either IRGC/Army/MoD

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## Mamajama

triangle said:


> You have not provided an estimation or number that is reasonable, based on the little information we have.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like we are getting into the semantics here. By your logic, the Shahab-3 was the strategic jump because it was the first BM that could reach Israel.


I thought these missile is for saudi arabia foremost not israel?


----------



## Philosopher

triangle said:


> I haven't mentioned testing a nuclear tipped ICBM. You are misrepresenting me.



You talked about ICBM or Nuclear weapons test, hence my comment. Nuclear tipped ICBM was the natural conclusion. More-over, point still stands.



> And Testing a nuclear tipped ICBM is a naive definition of strategic jump for Iran? Really?



Of course, because the likelihood of that happening is very small for obvious reason.




> There is no absolute foundation in your argument.



I have already explained to you multiple times why that missile fits that description, I assume you're not reading the comments you're replying to properly.




> Ah so you've conceded.



That was a direct rebuttal of your statement, do you understand what concession means?



> Because you haven't provided your own estimations and calculations.



When I have real reliable numbers to form the basis of such a calculation I will do so, until then, this exercise of passing judgement on the numbers of missile produced is not reliable.


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## 925boy

Philosopher said:


> Our defence industry is nothing compared to what should become. .


THis is an interesting comment, because even at its current state,which is under sustained heavy sanctions, Iran's defense industry is larger than Israel's...and we all know ISrael's defense industry is regarded as "high tech" and "high quality", so this is a big Iranian achievement AS IS....which means a sanctioned Iran still has the most advanced military industrial base in the region..dont even mention Turkey, US gave them what they have now, even though they are also advanced too. 

Regarding the new military gear Iran showed, SHEEESH...i'm getting worried Iran is going to use that Soleimani missile on Soleimani's killers....

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## Philosopher

925boy said:


> THis is an interesting comment, because even at its current state,which is under sustained heavy sanctions, Iran's defense industry is larger than Israel's...and we all know ISrael's defense industry is regarded as "high tech" and "high quality", so this is a big Iranian achievement AS IS....which means a sanctioned Iran still has the most advanced military industrial base in the region..dont even mention Turkey, US gave them what they have now, even though they are also advanced too.



I say that because almost every sector in Iran's defence industry I look at (including missiles) I can see a major amount of development that can still be done. Airforce has seen a fraction of what it can do, Navy is on the verge of major development (in the next 10 years) etc. Iran's defence budget is still relatively small but has gone so far because of the relatively cheaper ways things are done in Iran and the lack of an industrial military complex that seeks to bleed the military via profit maximisation. If Iran's enemies are worried now, how will they feel when Iran is much more powerful economically with a much larger defence budget with a more advanced and numerous underlying knowledge based companies etc to fuel that industry. Iranians throughout their history have been a major power many times, we're on our way there once again.





> Regarding the new military gear Iran showed, SHEEESH...i'm getting worried Iran is going to use that Soleimani missile on Soleimani's killers....



That overt attack on the base was a warning, Iranians play a much more smarter game. The American know to expect the retaliation how that will happen is something they will realise when it is too late.

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## triangle

Philosopher said:


> You talked about ICBM or Nuclear weapons test, hence my comment. Nuclear tipped ICBM was the natural conclusion. More-over, point still stands.





Philosopher said:


> Of course, because the likelihood of that happening is very small for obvious reason.





Philosopher said:


> I have already explained to you multiple times why that missile fits that description, I assume you're not reading the comments you're replying to properly.





Philosopher said:


> That was a direct rebuttal of your statement, do you understand what concession means?





Philosopher said:


> When I have real reliable numbers to form the basis of such a calculation I will do so, until then, this exercise of passing judgement on the numbers of missile produced is not reliable.



I tried to ignore you but you still continue misrepresenting my posts. I really hope you don't become the mod here with your relativistic definitions.


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## Philosopher

triangle said:


> I tried to ignore you but you still continue misrepresenting my posts. I really hope you don't become the mod here with your relativistic definitions.



Move along and stop taking up thread space please. I don't have time to keep responding to some inane comments.


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## Philosopher

Important news: According to the defence official in below video, the cost of these missile shown today are *1/10th* of the world prices!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296559158834192402

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## Philosopher

PTSD inducing image for the American military:

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## 925boy

Philosopher said:


> I say that because almost every sector in Iran's defence industry I look at (including missiles) I can see a major amount of development that can still be done. Airforce has seen a fraction of what it can do, Navy is on the verge of major development (in the next 10 years) etc. Iran's defence budget is still relatively small but has gone so far because of the relatively cheaper ways things are done in Iran and the lack of an industrial military complex that seeks to bleed the military via profit maximisation. If Iran's enemies are worried now, how will they feel when Iran is much more powerful economically with a much larger defence budget with a more advanced and numerous underlying knowledge based companies etc to fuel that industry. Iranians throughout their history have been a major power many times, we're on our way there once again.


Well i agree that Iran is capable of more......and this is the reason why Iran is such a problem for her adversaries...because they barely contained Iranian so imagine if more of the military technological "chains" are taken off??? wow, Iran will soon start competing for power position with some EU countries..

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## skyshadow

*The Minister of Defense announced the test phase of air cruise missiles.*
*

https://defapress.ir/fa/news/411951/موشک‌های-کروز-هوایی-ایران-در-مرحله-آزمایش-هستند*

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## skyshadow



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## TheImmortal

I already mentioned this was next step for Fateh family. But here is another source


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296760467113869313

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## Philosopher

@PeeD Could you talk in a little more in detail regarding a potential Iranian HGV system. How close would you say Iran is to having necessary materials to develop this? Has Iran made any mention regarding working on such a system? I suppose HGV is a logical progression from the current MaRVs.

Also, are there are disadvantages to such a system over the current MaRV being used in systems like Haj Qassem? or is it a completely advantageous solution? I assume in the short term, cost will be higher.


-----------------------------------------------------


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296385593564258305

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296518568918618119

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## Dariush the Great

TheImmortal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296518568918618119


Colombian president is a US puppet

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## PeeD

Philosopher said:


> @PeeD Could you talk in a little more in detail regarding a potential Iranian HGV system. How close would you say Iran is to having necessary materials to develop this? Has Iran made any mention regarding working on such a system? I suppose HGV is a logical progression from the current MaRVs.
> 
> Also, are there are disadvantages to such a system over the current MaRV being used in systems like Haj Qassem? or is it a completely advantageous solution? I assume in the short term, cost will be higher.
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296385593564258305



Well such a HGV first and foremost naturally costs more than the MaRV on Haj Qasem-1.

Iran hast mastered the aerothermal science package needed for such a low-end HGV.

Iran has not made any claims in this regard.

Key to this type of system for Iran is now to develop a HGV that material-wise and production complexity-wise is good enough to enable serial production.
Chinese are less stringent in this regard and the DF-17 is a quite complex and expensive solution.

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## skyshadow



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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297157491734859776


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## TheImmortal

With the release of Solemani missile and eventual HGV variant, this will make all missiles from Shahab-1 up to Ghadr variant obsolete as well as earlier Fatah missiles up to F-313 generation also obsolete. With the release of Solemani missile, it remains to be seen if Sejill-2 will remain in production (i suspect production was stopped long ago).

In future: Iranian long range BMs will be Khorramshar-2, and Solemani 1 & 2 missile

In Fateh family: Only Dezful/Zolfghar variants may continue to be produced along with the anti ship, anti radiation variants.

Missiles to be discontinued (if not all already):
Shahab 1-3
Ghadr
Qiam
Fateh-110A thru F-313 generations

I suspect many older missiles will be either cannibalizes for parts (space program and other missiles) and the most valuable will Kept and be moved into deep storage for war time. Some will be used in war games and testing. Others have been transferred to HZ or destroyed in Syria.

Liquids can be stored for a very long time. But soon the first Fateh missiles will be reach the edge of their shelf life anyway. I suspect the oldest Fateh missiles were transferred to HZ during the Syrian civil war. If they got destroyed by Israeli air strikes it wouldn’t matter much to Iran either way as they were obsolete and were going to be discarded sooner or later.

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## PeeD

The Qiam has a important role for Iran: It is the workhorse of regional tactical airpower's airbase operation denial.

It has strategic lifetime, is cheap and small.

Maybe the most favorite missile of IRGC-ASF.

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## skyshadow

*did they say 3 were killed ?


As the US-led coalition is going to leave Taji air base Iraq, Pro militia/IRGC telegram channels are circulating pictures of the three coalition members who were killed in mid March rocket attack on Taji 






*

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## triangle

TheImmortal said:


> With the release of Solemani missile and eventual HGV variant, this will make all missiles from Shahab-1 up to Ghadr variant obsolete as well as earlier Fatah missiles up to F-313 generation also obsolete.



I hope with that with obsolete you don't mean redundant.



TheImmortal said:


> In future: Iranian long range BMs will be Khorramshar-2, and Solemani 1 & 2 missile


Near and mid-term future: No



TheImmortal said:


> I suspect many older missiles will be either cannibalizes for parts (space program and other missiles) and the most valuable will Kept and be moved into deep storage for war time.



There is very little other use for parts that where specifically made for a certain purpose. Even the liquid fuel engines of the Shahab-1,2,3/Ghadr/Qiam will serve little purpose in any SLV because of the progress in solid-fuel technology.


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## TheImmortal

triangle said:


> I hope with that with obsolete you don't mean redundant.
> 
> 
> Near and mid-term future: No
> 
> 
> 
> There is very little other use for parts that where specifically made for a certain purpose. Even the liquid fuel engines of the Shahab-1,2,3/Ghadr/Qiam will serve little purpose in any SLV because of the progress in solid-fuel technology.



Newer generations are more accurate and use more updated technology. Pre 2012 Iran was focused on quantity and newer missiles while post 2012 Iran was focused on accuracy of existing platforms as declared by Iran’s SL.

Yes, future will be to rely on Khorramshar to provide bulk power across long ranges with its massive warhead(s). Solemani variant will be upgraded to 1800KM and if HGV is made (I believe so) it will boost the missile to 2000KM+ from Skipping and gliding in upper atmosphere as a quasi BM. Solemani missile as a solid fuel has much more advantages over its Liquid fuel rival.

You are wrong on SLV not needing liquid engines as Iran’s Government Space Program uses liquid fuel engines. IRGC space program uses solid fuel engines. You should learn this important difference.


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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> The Qiam has a important role for Iran: It is the workhorse of regional tactical airpower's airbase operation denial.
> 
> It has strategic lifetime, is cheap and small.
> 
> Maybe the most favorite missile of IRGC-ASF.



Its liquid fuel, TEL based, exposes crew to air strikes or harmful fueling process, takes longer to fire allowing satellites to pick up, higher failure rate during flight. Advantage is the long shelf life as you alluded to.

As we have seen Iran is taking steps to reduce need for TELS and large trained crews.

In future as Iranian costs on existing solid fuel platforms drop, it makes greater sense to eliminate liquid fuel production missiles in same category.

But you maybe right they might keep Qiam or or sell missile to other militaries in future as a revenue generation channel.


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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> Its liquid fuel, TEL based, exposes crew to air strikes or harmful fueling process, takes longer to fire allowing satellites to pick up, higher failure rate during flight. Advantage is the long shelf life as you alluded to.
> 
> As we have seen Iran is taking steps to reduce need for TELS and large trained crews.
> 
> In future as Iranian costs on existing solid fuel platforms drop, it makes greater sense to eliminate liquid fuel production missiles in same category.
> 
> But you maybe right they might keep Qiam or or sell missile to other militaries in future as a revenue generation channel.



You are right about the high training requirements and dangerous liquid fuel of the Qiam.

As said it is the IRGC-ASF payload workhorse, those mountain superbases with cavern launch method will throw them out every 30 minutes from each cavern. 
TELs would operate if the enemy has lost its reach to threaten them or IADS is fully intact.

You build a Qiam and you have a payload delivery system for 100+ years.

Weapon lifecylce costs are very important to Iran.

Qiam will remain.

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## skyshadow



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## TheImmortal

PeeD said:


> You are right about the high training requirements and dangerous liquid fuel of the Qiam.
> 
> As said it is the IRGC-ASF payload workhorse, those mountain superbases with cavern launch method will throw them out every 30 minutes from each cavern.
> TELs would operate if the enemy has lost its reach to threaten them or IADS is fully intact.
> 
> You build a Qiam and you have a payload delivery system for 100+ years.
> 
> Weapon lifecylce costs are very important to Iran.
> 
> Qiam will remain.



You are right about the mountain base, but it is not an invulnerable fortress. It needs exhaust vents to release harmful fumes and those vents are exposed as well as the auxiliary systems that supply air/power into the bases. Iran is not the first country to build mountain based silos.

As you alluded to Qiam is as valuable as long as it’s air defense systems can hold up. Unrealistic to expect the current Iranian air defense network to be able to hold against 300+ aircraft and thousands of cruise missiles. Pockets may survive but overall shield will fall. Maybe future is different. Thus speed and fire rate preparation time becomes critical.

Space that Qiam takes up can be filled by a future Iranian missile that can carry multiple warheads or MIRVs wether liquid or solid thus expanding the firepower per missile.

I believe current Qiam supply built since at least 2010 is sufficient enough for IRGC needs.

I believe next step for Iranian missiles is once accuracy has been improved to its realistic limits will be to build missiles with more powerful engines that can carry much higher payloads (MARVs and MIRVs). We already see that with Khorramshar family to (eventually) replace Shahab-3 family.


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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> You are right about the mountain base, but it is not an invulnerable fortress. It needs exhaust vents to release harmful fumes and those vents are exposed as well as the auxiliary systems that supply air/power into the bases. Iran is not the first country to build mountain based silos.
> 
> As you alluded to Qiam is as valuable as long as it’s air defense systems can hold up. Unrealistic to expect the current Iranian air defense network to be able to hold against 300+ aircraft and thousands of cruise missiles. Pockets may survive but overall shield will fall. Maybe future is different. Thus speed and fire rate preparation time becomes critical.
> 
> Space that Qiam takes up can be filled by a future Iranian missile that can carry multiple warheads or MIRVs wether liquid or solid thus expanding the firepower per missile.
> 
> I believe current Qiam supply built since at least 2010 is sufficient enough for IRGC needs.
> 
> I believe next step for Iranian missiles is once accuracy has been improved to its realistic limits will be to build missiles with more powerful engines that can carry much higher payloads (MARVs and MIRVs). We already see that with Khorramshar family to (eventually) replace Shahab-3 family.



Iran is about the only country that went the lengths and expanses of a cavern launch concept (most survivable land concept known).
- Airpower will instantly be reduced due to Iranian BM airbase operation denial. In many areas to a level which IADS can handle.
-CMs are unsuitable to hunt TELs and the U.S has fewer ready to launch than many think.

But I agree, Qiam production was massive and will reach its end. Possible that only heavy haul BM like the Khorramshahr or a heavy ICBM will remain in the liquid division in the future.

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## skyshadow

*Tasnim said Iran haj Qasem missile can soon hit satellites up to 600 KM in atmosphere.*

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## TheImmortal

Dariush the Great said:


> Colombian president is a US puppet



*Maduro says Venezuela buying Iranian missiles 'a good idea*’





__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com

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## AmirPatriot

triangle said:


> @AmirPatriot , I saw you had trouble posting a thread about the upcoming Defense Industries Day on twitter. I'm sure we don't mind if you post your findings here on this forum.
> 
> Maybe we should all tag @AmirPatriot to share his findings with us!



Hi Triangle. I'm currently working on including my analysis of everything important from DID in a blog post. I'll post the link in the forum when it's finished.

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## skyshadow

*Iran's new "Fath" missile 

@PeeD love to hear your analysts on it














*

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> *Iran's new "Fath" missile
> 
> @PeeD love to hear your analysts on it
> 
> View attachment 663410
> 
> 
> View attachment 663416
> 
> 
> View attachment 663417
> *



The more fascinating missile is the (composite?) one in the back in the first picture. It has an aerodynamic nose structure. I have never seen that on Iranian missiles before.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> The more fascinating missile is the (composite?) one in the back in the first picture. It has an aerodynamic nose structure. I have never seen that on Iranian missiles before.


you mean all composite Zelzal racket with dark green ? yes it got me too , you know whats cool ? if the new Fath has the range of Fateh 110


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## skyshadow



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## PeeD

@skyshadow 

I haven't much to say about it baradar. Fath has become possible due to miniaturization efforts and new generation servo actuators. Compared to GPS guided artillery rockets it should be a real missile.

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## Ich

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 663726



Yes, up up to the stars! Human has to populate the univers!

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## skyshadow

*Iran’s Defense Minister, Amir Hatami, tells a Russian media that Iran has been exporting arms to Asia, Africa, Europe and America (continent) and when limits on its exports are gone, markets for Iran will definitely grow. 




https://ir.sputniknews.com/opinion/202008246836595-%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%AA%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%A7%D8%AD%D8%A8%D9%87-%D8%A8%D8%A7-%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%BE%D9%88%D8%AA%D9%86%DB%8C%DA%A9-%D9%87%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%AF%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B9%DB%8C-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%88-%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B3%DB%8C%D9%87-%D9%85%D8%A8%D8%AA%D9%86%DB%8C-%D8%A8%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AF-%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%84-%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA/


*

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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> you mean all composite Zelzal racket with dark green ? yes it got me too , you know whats cool ? if the new Fath has the range of Fateh 110



No, look at the composite’s nose. It appears to have a “shaved” warhead configuration potentially allowing it higher terminal speed. Either that or it’s a camera distortion.

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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> No, look at the composite’s nose. It appears to have a “shaved” warhead configuration potentially allowing it higher terminal speed. Either that or it’s a camera distortion.


thats Zelzal before it is the new Fath missile and after Zelzal is Sejill-2


----------



## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297912011821522951

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## Iskander

*Iran Making Long-Range Aerial Cruise Missile: Defense Minister*





__





Iran Making Long-Range Aerial Cruise Missile: Defense Minister - Politics news - Tasnim News Agency


TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Iran’s defense minister said Tehran is developing a long-range air-launched cruise missile (ALCM).




www.tasnimnews.com

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## 925boy

Iskander said:


> *Iran Making Long-Range Aerial Cruise Missile: Defense Minister*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran Making Long-Range Aerial Cruise Missile: Defense Minister - Politics news - Tasnim News Agency
> 
> 
> TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Iran’s defense minister said Tehran is developing a long-range air-launched cruise missile (ALCM).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tasnimnews.com


well....it wouldnt be wise to not expect this.

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## skyshadow



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## triangle

Messerschmitt said:


> Last year I did some research on Iranian ballistic missile serial numbers that can be seen in pictures and videos released to the public and it led me to the assumption that the IRGC-ASF had atleast ~800 Ghadr missiles at that time, of which most where Ghadr-Hs and the rest mostly consisting of Ghadr-Fs.



577 Ghadr-H in March 2014. Seeing as there are some more Ghadr-H's in that picture, let us take 600 Ghadr-H's produced in 4 years. That is ~150 per year at the least. That is more than the 90 missile per year rate of production I initially thought, based on a news article about the Shahab-3 production rate which was estimated by Western intel to be about 70 per year in 2007. I added 20 to it because of the experience gained in production, since the Shahab-3 started production 4 years before that (2003).

I'm still trying to look for more good quality pictures and video's and I thought I saw a serial number in the 800's from a news item in 2016. But the video is too blurry for my taste.

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## AmirPatriot

AmirPatriot said:


> Hi Triangle. I'm currently working on including my analysis of everything important from DID in a blog post. I'll post the link in the forum when it's finished.



As promised...

*Defence Industry Day 2020/۱۳۹۹*

I discuss the new Shahid Hajj Qassem quasi-MRBM, the Shahid Abu Mahdi 1000km anti-ship missile, and the promising Jahesh-700 turbofan.

Link ⬇










Defence Industry Day 2020/۱۳۹۹


A blog about Iranian Military and Geopolitical affairs.




irangeomil.blogspot.com

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## triangle

AmirPatriot said:


> As promised...
> 
> *Defence Industry Day 2020/۱۳۹۹*
> 
> I discuss the new Shahid Hajj Qassem quasi-MRBM, the Shahid Abu Mahdi 1000km anti-ship missile, and the promising Jahesh-700 turbofan.
> 
> Link ⬇
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defence Industry Day 2020/۱۳۹۹
> 
> 
> A blog about Iranian Military and Geopolitical affairs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irangeomil.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 664012



Thanks for the post. I have a question though. You state that: ' On the F-4, it is launched from the outermost pylon, which would mean that an F-4 carrying such missiles could not travel very far. ' Why is it a thing that the F-4 carrying the Ghader on its outmost pylon would mean a shorter range?

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## TheImmortal

triangle said:


> Thanks for the post. I have a question though. You state that: ' On the F-4, it is launched from the outermost pylon, which would mean that an F-4 carrying such missiles could not travel very far. ' Why is it a thing that the F-4 carrying the Ghader on its outmost pylon would mean a shorter range?



No external fuel tank?

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## TheImmortal

yavar said:


> Iran Unveiling Achievements of Defense industry Day 2020: Martyr Haj Qasem ballistic missile ‌ Range 1400-1800 km ( 12 Mach speed), Long-range Naval land attack cruise missile Martyr Abu-Mahdi ( Naval Talayeh) range 1000+ km, light turbofan engine Jahsh-700



I just noticed that during Defense day for Abu Mahdi CM they used same footage from many years ago of Talayeh/Soumar unveiling launch.

Which makes me wonder what the difference between these two CMs are besides the name and a generation improvement?

Starts at 29:15 same footage


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## Philosopher

TheImmortal said:


> I just noticed that during Defense day for Abu Mahdi CM they used same footage from many years ago of Talayeh/Soumar unveiling launch.
> 
> Which makes me wonder what the difference between these two CMs are besides the name and a generation improvement?
> 
> Starts at 29:15 same footage



Abu Mahdi is a dedicated anti-ship variant of that family of cruise missile. It is using a completely different seeker.

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## scimitar19

triangle said:


> That is more than the 90 missile per year rate of production I initially thought, based on a news article about the Shahab-3 production rate which was estimated by Western intel to be about 70 per year in 2007. I added 20 to it because of the experience gained in production, since the Shahab-3 started production 4 years before that (2003).


Remember guys they fired in 2017 in Syria 6 or 7 and in 2020 they fired some 15 on the americans so you need to curb these numbers a bit. Geez guys where do you come up with such numbers?! Oh I remmber when we moved from few dozen to few thousands in numbers


----------



## triangle

triangle said:


> 577 Ghadr-H in March 2014. Seeing as there are some more Ghadr-H's in that picture, let us take 600 Ghadr-H's produced in 4 years. That is ~150 per year at the least. That is more than the 90 missile per year rate of production I initially thought, based on a news article about the Shahab-3 production rate which was estimated by Western intel to be about 70 per year in 2007. I added 20 to it because of the experience gained in production, since the Shahab-3 started production 4 years before that (2003).
> 
> I'm still trying to look for more good quality pictures and video's and I thought I saw a serial number in the 800's from a news item in 2016. But the video is too blurry for my taste.



With a rate of production of at least 150 Ghadr's per year, gives us 1500 produced so far. For the Shahab-3, let us assume a yearly production rate of 110, assuming an average between the reported 70 production rate and the verifiable production rate of the Ghadr. Produced since 2003 and replaced in 2010 by the Ghadr, gives us ~800 Shahab-3.

Looking at the Qiam which is a smaller, lighter and cheaper missile than the MRBM ones, I revise my estimated production rate to be between that of the Fateh and that Ghadr which is ~260 Qiam produced per year. That would give us ~2600 Qiam SRBM since 2010.

Assuming the Emad is a new missile different from the Ghadr but still similar, produced since 2015 gives us ~750 Emad's.

Possible number: Shahab-3+Ghadr+Emad+Qiam= ~5650 modern liquid BM's not including Shahab-1/2, Sejjil and Khorramshahr.

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## triangle

Great thread on how many missiles Iran needs to destroy US bases near Iran. Although I don't like the idea of using cluster warheads on run- and taxiways.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297830029846511618

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## AmirPatriot

triangle said:


> Thanks for the post. I have a question though. You state that: ' On the F-4, it is launched from the outermost pylon, which would mean that an F-4 carrying such missiles could not travel very far. ' Why is it a thing that the F-4 carrying the Ghader on its outmost pylon would mean a shorter range?


Dammit, thanks for reminding me, I need to correct that! As others have mentioned, the F-4 carries its external fuel tanks on the outermost pylons. Iranian F-4s are rarely seen flying without their EFTs. So with the missile on those pylons, The F-4s would be limited to the Persian Gulf area, somewhat diminishing the advantage of aircraft-borne ASCMs - extended reach on a relatively survivable platform.

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## triangle

AmirPatriot said:


> Dammit, thanks for reminding me, I need to correct that! As others has mentioned, the F-4 carries its external fuel tanks on the outermost pylons. Iranian F-4s are rarely seen flying without their EFTs. So with the missile on those pylons, The F-4s would be limited to the Persian Gulf area, somewhat diminishing the advantage of aircraft-borne ASCMs - extended reach on a relatively survivable platform.



It seems so. It looks like there is a ground clearance issue with the inner pylons when fitted with the ASCMs. Well at least they can use the centerline fuel tank when carrying 2 ASCMs


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## BHAN85

sha ah said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296421180480552960



Iran can't scary anyone if they can't prove the accuracy of that missile.

Why they dont test hitting a test target in international waters? (In the mediterranean, over-flying Israel).

What guidance system use it? Only inertial?


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## Hack-Hook

BHAN85 said:


> Iran can't scary anyone if they can't prove the accuracy of that missile.
> 
> Why they dont test hitting a test target in international waters? (In the mediterranean, over-flying Israel).
> 
> What guidance system use it? Only inertial?


are you aware that's not an Anti Ship Ballistic missile


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## BHAN85

Hack-Hook said:


> are you aware that's not an Anti Ship Ballistic missile



I think nobody doubt about the explosive, the doubt is about the accuracy in that long range missile, they can hit some target in Syria too.

If Iran can prove the accuracy of 1 meter to hit Bibi head, maybe Israel will stop of try to do stupid things against Iran.

Iranian missiles only have inertial guidance?


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## Ich

BHAN85 said:


> If Iran can prove the accuracy of 1 meter to hit Bibi head, maybe Israel will stop of try to do stupid things against Iran.



Well, sure this could be testet if you personally hold Bibi longer than 15 minutes at the same place....

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## BHAN85

Ich said:


> Well, sure this could be testet if you personally hold Bibi longer than 15 minutes at the same place....



Israel government dont care when they risk the life of thousand of Israeli people threating a war with Iran.

But they will think twice if they will be accurately targeted by Iran in case of war. Moreover Israeli people are not aware of the real risks of a war with Iran, maybe Iran should do a demo of their caps to teach the Israeli journalists what is important and what is not  .

I dont know what guidance system use Iranian missiles, I guess they can't rely in GPS 

I think they copy inertial guidance systems of ancient soviet missiles, but today computers, memory, etc.. are very cheaper and smaller than decades ago.

Why they dont develop this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERCOM
For their cruise missiles?



> Terrain Contour Matching, or TERCOM, is a navigation system used primarily by cruise missiles. It uses a pre-recorded contour map of the terrain that is compared with measurements made during flight by an on-board radar altimeter. A TERCOM system considerably increases the accuracy of a missile compared with inertial navigation systems (INS). The increased accuracy allows a TERCOM-equipped missile to fly closer to obstacles and generally lower altitudes, making it harder to detect by ground radar.



They can launch a unarmed cruise misile in front of Bibi house, it's a public know place. 

Israeli engineers can help Iranian to develop a TERCOM system, it will be minimized the amount of innocent Israeli dead people in case of war with Iran.


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## TheImmortal

Iranian missiles can use GPS/GLONASS/BEIDOU during flight. It’s next impossible to prevent it as it would need to access the system only briefly and as a redundancy measure to ensure interial and gyroscope data is correct.

During terminal phase it wouldn’t make sense to use GPS because it is NOT ACCURATE enough when a warhead is moving Mach 5 through the atmosphere to give precise location data.


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## Ich

BHAN85 said:


> Israel government dont care when they risk the life of thousand of Israeli people threating a war with Iran.
> 
> But they will think twice if they will be accurately targeted by Iran in case of war. Moreover Israeli people are not aware of the real risks of a war with Iran, maybe Iran should do a demo of their caps to teach the Israeli journalists what is important and what is not  .



I also suggested a demo of irans missiles capability a year ago or so. Then in January this year Iran did this demo. Me think no questions were left.




> I dont know what guidance system use Iranian missiles, I guess they can't rely in GPS
> 
> I think they copy inertial guidance systems of ancient soviet missiles, but today computers, memory, etc.. are very cheaper and smaller than decades ago.



Iranian INS, developed by Iran, is based on a high accurate laser gyro in the second generation (as far as i know second generation). Iran uses laser gyro over at least a decade and the newest generation me think is not much more possible to optimize. 



> Why they dont develop this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERCOM
> For their cruise missiles?



It depends what and how you want something to archive. Tercom is older system from before gps came up, but can still be used in some missions.




> They can launch a unarmed cruise misile in front of Bibi house, it's a public know place.
> 
> Israeli engineers can help Iranian to develop a TERCOM system, it will be minimized the amount of innocent Israeli dead people in case of war with Iran.



One do not need to kill civilians. It goes faster if you take out the military infrastructur, the energy infrastructure and the transport infrastructure. Sure there will also die some civilians. But it is war and in war people die.

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## TheImmortal

Ich said:


> It depends what and how you want something to archive. Tercom is older system from before gps came up, but can still be used in some missions.



Tercom is a more EW resistant system. Both Iran and Russia have tested long range GPS jammers. And due to slow moving nature of CM and terrain hugging altitude of CM it is more susceptible to GPS jamming than a BM during flight.

The best would be a Tercom system using interial guidance alongside GPS as a redundancy. It should be able to detect EW attacks and disregard GPS data when suspecting EW manipulation.

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## Ich

TheImmortal said:


> Tercom is a more EW resistant system. Both Iran and Russia have tested long range GPS jammers. And due to slow moving nature of CM and terrain hugging altitude of CM it is more susceptible to GPS jamming than a BM during flight.



Yes, this is why i wrote "It depends"



> The best would be a Tercom system using interial guidance alongside GPS as a redundancy. It should be able to detect EW attacks and disregard GPS data when suspecting EW manipulation.



Iran has very good experience in EO devices. Maybe the sat data for terrain world wide is coming in at the moment. We have to wait for more announcements as only some pic from US-bases.

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## triangle

Oc by me

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## Mithridates

triangle said:


> Oc by me
> View attachment 665415


is it a breaking news or an old one?


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## triangle

Mithridates said:


> is it a breaking news or an old one?



Turkey unveiled their 'new' missile technology just yesterday

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## sha ah

Turkey is on the verge of bankruptcy. Their economy is basically in ruins. No tourism because of Coronavirus and the small fortune Erdogan has spent on Syria/Libya hasn't really paid off the way he envisioned that it would.

In desperation Erdogan is now trying to claim resources from southern Cyprus, basically European resources. Europe will not stand for that. Recently French jets did constand fly bys above a Turkish drilling ship. Erodgan is now playing a very dangerous game in multiple theaters.

Despite endless negotiations with Washington and countless delays, the Turks are going ahead with the implementation of the S-400, which could easily lead to sanctions from the US. The Europeans are talking about sanctions as well which would completely eradicate Turkey's economy.

On the other hand the Syrian mercenaries in Libya, numbering 30,000+ are each being paid $2000 a month, not including food, weapons, spare parts, etc. Turkey lost 3 air defense systems in Watiya and has lost well over 20+ drones each priced at $5 million. War is costly and Erdogan needs more gains in Libya to acquire Libyan oil.

Egypt however has stated that Sirte, Turkey's next target, is a red line. Most Turkish fanboys completely dismiss the Egyptian/UAE military capabilities but Egypt has Rafale jets, SU-35's, about 200 F-16's and thousands of Abrams tanks. Not to mention that Libya is very close to Egypt, only seperated by a line in the ground that doesn't exist. Turkey on the other hand has to send forces all the way across the meditteranean. Their F-16's would have to fly a long way just to reach LIbya and realistically their F-16's are no match for Rafale's or SU-35's. The UAE is currently moving jets to Egypt near striking range as well. Rafale jets were responsible for destroying the 3 Turkish air defense systems in Watiya, so that's not a good sign.

In regards to missile tech, Turkey has a long way to go until they can match Iran. Iran has hypersonic missiles, a large stockpile of missiles with pinpoint accuracy and Iranian missiles can reach all of Europe. Realistically Iran has the know how to produce a missile that could reach Washington but for political reasons, they're capping the range of their missiles at 2500 no matter what.

In terms of their nuclear program, Russia is going to build several nuclear reactors in Turkey, but Russian technicians will be running the show and will remove all the depleted Uranium monthly. If Turkey tries to go nuclear or develop it's missile program further, again they're teetering on the brink of devastating sanctions being imposed and unlike Iran, Turkey does not have natural resources to naturally fall back on and their economy is too dependent on trade with Europe.

Who knows, only time will tell, but Erdogan is walking a tight rope at the moment.



triangle said:


> Turkey unveiled their 'new' missile technology just yesterday

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## triangle

I don't know why you reacted in such a way to my post, but regardless have a 'Like' for the effort.


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## sha ah

That's just my personal analysis of Turkey's current geopolitical situation.



triangle said:


> I don't know why you reacted in such a way to my post, but regardless have a 'Like' for the effort.

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## triangle

sha ah said:


> That's just my personal analysis of Turkey's current geopolitical situation.



Should've started a separate thread about instead of posting it randomly in this thread


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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1300352775738601478
When you aren’t under brutal sanctions regimes projects can be accomplished must faster.

Iran should actually be pleased with this development. It makes the West’s demand to reign in BM activity absurd when Saudi Arabia and Turkey are all increasing their respective programs.

Also what will Israel due in this situation? Does it plan to sabotage the Turkish LR BM like it has attempted with IR Of Iran BM program?


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## QWECXZ

TheImmortal said:


> Iran should actually be pleased with this development. It makes the West’s demand to reign in BM activity absurd when Saudi Arabia and Turkey are all increasing their respective programs.



As if their demands were legit and not absurd. lol

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## TheImmortal

QWECXZ said:


> As if their demands were legit and not absurd. lol



Harder to justify if Iran can claim its opponents have similar BMs. (Local Deterrence excuse)

Same reason why Iran should look forward to Turkey and Saudi enrichment of uranium on their own respective soil.

It weakens the argument of the West. Up to now, Iran is the only country having large scale nuclear enrichment on its soil in the Middle East as well as the only country fielding large accurate long range missiles (besides Israel’s Jericho missiles and Israeli nuclear weapons program).
.


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## QWECXZ

TheImmortal said:


> Harder to justify if Iran can claim its opponents have similar BMs. (Local Deterrence excuse)
> 
> Same reason why Iran should look forward to Turkey and Saudi enrichment of uranium on their own respective soil.
> 
> It weakens the argument of the West. Up to now, Iran is the only country having large scale nuclear enrichment on its soil in the Middle East as well as the only country fielding large accurate long range missiles (besides Israel’s Jericho missiles and Israeli nuclear weapons program).
> .


Do you seriously think that they care about Turkish or Saudi enrichment activities? Well, they don't. Do you see the IAEA requesting Saudi Arabia or Turkey for clarifications every single session they held? No. Iran was put under pressure for doing much less than what Saudi Arabia is doing now. Do you see UNSC resolutions against Turkey's missile program? No.Don't you see how the Chinese are equipping Saudis with game changing ballistic missiles like DF-21?

They don't need justifications. They impose what they want because they can. As simple as that.

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## TheImmortal

QWECXZ said:


> Do you seriously think that they care about Turkish or Saudi enrichment activities? Well, they don't. Do you see the IAEA requesting Saudi Arabia or Turkey for clarifications every single session they held? No. Iran was put under pressure for doing much less than what Saudi Arabia is doing now. Do you see UNSC resolutions against Turkey's missile program? No.Don't you see how the Chinese are equipping Saudis with game changing ballistic missiles like DF-21?
> 
> They don't need justifications. They impose what they want because they can. As simple as that.



1) neither Saudi Arabia nor Turkey have an enrichment program that suddenly got revealed after decade under construction.

2) neither Saudi Arabia nor Turkey have a had nuclear weapons program (any rumors outside of financing Pakistan weapons program is wild conjecture at this point).

So what do you want the IAEA to question exactly? Something that hasn’t yet occurred? If the West snaps it’s fingers Turkey and Saudi Arabia can be put under same sanctions as Iran if the West feels it’s interests are being threatened by either country.

DF-21 is not game changing missile. It is missile program from the 1960’s. 

Turkey and Saudi Arabia are not considered threats to Western order. even the Shah was sold the F-14 which was the equivalent of the F-22 being sold to another country today (not technology wise, but rarity of the arms deal). Iran was the only country approved to ever be able to purchase the F-14. How come? Because it was a banana power under the Shah. West wasn’t worried about arms in the hands of an uneducated workers pool. 

I will say that Turkey is much more independent than Saudi Arabia ever will be. The House of Saud is filled with so many spies and Western agents that at a snap of a finger they would cut off MBS’ head when given the order. Nothing happens in Saudi Arabia without the West knowing. It’s what happens when you sell your sovereignty for protection.

So I don’t even consider Saudi Arabia a threat. Any Military build up (Nuclear, missile,etc) that happens is because it is allowed to happen. You forget that the Shah was ordering several nuclear power plants from the West way back in the 70’s. He planned to become a nuclear power covertly. Turkey and Saudi Arabia have finally reached the point With the West where Shah was 50 years ago!

If puppets get out of line A color revolution can easily be engineered by the West if need be. Sanctions can destroy Turkey or Saudi Arabia if need be. Indeed you see what a small degree of sanctions did to the Turkish Lira. Now imagine an embargo by the US.

Turkey is a lot more unique. It is NATOs largest army and it was able to get substantial ToT via many arms deals, licenses, and being part of NATO allowed it access to latest technology (they even build parts for the F-35 project). Add in a robust economic growth since the 90’s and the recent discovery of 350b units of natural gas in the Black Sea and Turkey has a lot more independence than people give credit for. Russia would love to win Turkey over because as I said earlier it supplies NATOs largest army. If Turkey leaves NATO, then NATO ground forces are severely depleted in case of war.

Even though Turkey is a lot more independent than Saudi Arabia, it is tied to West both economically and militarily. Thus if it tries to de couple it will be extremely risky because as you saw in Turkish history there are many fifth columns and thus a coup can always be engineered. Erdogan is popular so long as Turkish people prosper. A few sanctions here and a few sanctions there and you will see how quickly the public will get tired of him. In fact you already seeing his party weaken.

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## triangle

samsara said:


> Some interesting comment about the recent live double-firing exercise of DF-26 and DF-21D in the South China Sea at the Chinese internet. Each of the AShBM does employ its own probe module, launched to get around the re-entry radio blackout due to plasma sheath, a smart engineering feat.
> 
> 美帝这次又丢脸了，数数数错了，战时这是决不能原谅的 2020-08-29
> 反航母弹的套路，与对地弹打发不一样。出大气层先放探测舱段，为弹头最后砸向目标提供修正数据，结果被美帝看成是一个弹头了。这也不能怪美帝，没玩过这类弹，当然不懂套路，这次完整的演给他看看，省的有疑虑。
> 
> This time the US observation made a mistake again and counted wrongly
> 
> The routine of anti-carrier missile is different from that of ground bombs. *The probe module was first released from the atmosphere, providing updated data for the warhead's final impact on the target*, and this outcome was mistakenly deemed as a warhead itself by the US observers. Cannot really blame them since they have not dealt with this kind of missile. Of course they did not fully understand the routine, this complete performance will be shown to them to remove the doubts.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.talkcc.net/article/4550727





ZeEa5KPul said:


> Damn, China must be very confident to reveal this trick. It's *really* clever, like diabolically, fiendishly clever to have the warhead bus chuck up what is essentially a temporary mini-targeting satellite. It's a solution that solves a lot of problems with AShBMs... I just can't get over how effective and elegant it is!
> 
> I think another important feature this test revealed is strike simultaneity. It's important for a strike package arriving along different directions to reach the target at the same time to maximize load on the defenders - this test must also have surely demonstrated that.
> 
> I can't help but connect this test to the escalation on the Indian border. Now that China has sufficiently frightened and deterred the US (and confirm this through espionage), the field is clear to escalate on other fronts and resolve those disputes favourably.




Looks like China is deploying mini-satellites in AShBMs to overcome signal disruption during reentry. Provides guidance updates to the warheads. Perhaps the only solution for targeting updates for MR+ exoatmospheric (ASh)BMs during reentry.

Iran still lacks an ISR capability to detect and track a carrier at these 1000+km ranges and it also probably lacks bus technology. All this could be achievable by 2030(+) IMO.


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## PeeD

Iran will probably first go for high flying SAR equipped Simrogh/RQ-170 drones in future for stand-off surface vessel detection.



triangle said:


> Looks like China is deploying mini-satellites in AShBMs to overcome signal disruption during reentry.



From where you got this? Chinese AshBMs are not fast enough for orbital velocity. You probably mean a suborbital "satellite" but that would be quite an effort, given that the MaRV can safely use its radar seeker in SAR mode when outside the atmosphere to detect and discriminate.

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## sha ah

In regards to Iran, the Iranian government brought the sanctions upon themselves by constantly yelling "death to America" Like Obama said, "death to America doesn't produce jobs for Iran" In any case what's done is done.

Saudi's have a small number of missiles (30x DF-3 IRBM and a few dozen DF-21 MRBM ), and about a dozen launchers. 

There DF-3 and DF-21 missiles both have large warheads but the DF-3 missiles, they're not precise, although who knows there's a good chance they've upgraded them since the purchase in the late 80's. The DF-21 missiles are more precise but it depends on which version the Saudi's acquired, their accuracy ranges from 700-10m CEP depending on the variant. 

However one thing to keep in mind is that the Saudi's have never launched their missiles. In any case Iran has thousand of missiles with pin point accuracy and now hypersonic missiles. In the missile department neither Saudi nor Turkey come close to Iran

The Saudi economy is not doing very well because of the on going war with Yemen and the recent oil wars which the Saudi's initiated with Russia. Covid-19 also plays a factor here

The Turkish economy is not doing well at all. The lack of tourism isn't helping either. Remember in 2005, 1 USD was worth 1 MILLION Lira. Then they took off 6 zeros. For a while 1 USD was worth 1.2 Lira around there. Now it's 1 USD = 7+ Lira. 

Erdogan is desperate and looking for a way out of the economic rut. He's trying to lay claim to southern Cyrprus's natural gas and other gas fields which are in international waters. 

The US is on the verge of imposing sanctions over the S-400. Many US senators, bi partisan, are determined to do it. The EU is also looking to impose sanctions over Turkey's recent belligerent behavior. The fact that Turkey is starting a nuclear program and now producing missiles that can reach Europe, is not going to help their case. 







TheImmortal said:


> 1) neither Saudi Arabia nor Turkey have an enrichment program that suddenly got revealed after decade under construction.
> 
> 2) neither Saudi Arabia nor Turkey have a had nuclear weapons program (any rumors outside of financing Pakistan weapons program is wild conjecture at this point).
> 
> So what do you want the IAEA to question exactly? Something that hasn’t yet occurred? If the West snaps it’s fingers Turkey and Saudi Arabia can be put under same sanctions as Iran if the West feels it’s interests are being threatened by either country.
> 
> DF-21 is not game changing missile. It is missile program from the 1960’s.
> 
> Turkey and Saudi Arabia are not considered threats to Western order. even the Shah was sold the F-14 which was the equivalent of the F-22 being sold to another country today (not technology wise, but rarity of the arms deal). Iran was the only country approved to ever be able to purchase the F-14. How come? Because it was a banana power under the Shah. West wasn’t worried about arms in the hands of an uneducated workers pool.
> 
> I will say that Turkey is much more independent than Saudi Arabia ever will be. The House of Saud is filled with so many spies and Western agents that at a snap of a finger they would cut off MBS’ head when given the order. Nothing happens in Saudi Arabia without the West knowing. It’s what happens when you sell your sovereignty for protection.
> 
> So I don’t even consider Saudi Arabia a threat. Any Military build up (Nuclear, missile,etc) that happens is because it is allowed to happen. You forget that the Shah was ordering several nuclear power plants from the West way back in the 70’s. He planned to become a nuclear power covertly. Turkey and Saudi Arabia have finally reached the point With the West where Shah was 50 years ago!
> 
> If puppets get out of line A color revolution can easily be engineered by the West if need be. Sanctions can destroy Turkey or Saudi Arabia if need be. Indeed you see what a small degree of sanctions did to the Turkish Lira. Now imagine an embargo by the US.
> 
> Turkey is a lot more unique. It is NATOs largest army and it was able to get substantial ToT via many arms deals, licenses, and being part of NATO allowed it access to latest technology (they even build parts for the F-35 project). Add in a robust economic growth since the 90’s and the recent discovery of 350b units of natural gas in the Black Sea and Turkey has a lot more independence than people give credit for. Russia would love to win Turkey over because as I said earlier it supplies NATOs largest army. If Turkey leaves NATO, then NATO ground forces are severely depleted in case of war.
> 
> Even though Turkey is a lot more independent than Saudi Arabia, it is tied to West both economically and militarily. Thus if it tries to de couple it will be extremely risky because as you saw in Turkish history there are many fifth columns and thus a coup can always be engineered. Erdogan is popular so long as Turkish people prosper. A few sanctions here and a few sanctions there and you will see how quickly the public will get tired of him. In fact you already seeing his party weaken.


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## triangle

PeeD said:


> From where you got this? Chinese AshBMs are not fast enough for orbital velocity. You probably mean a suborbital "satellite" but that would be quite an effort, given that the MaRV can safely use its radar seeker in SAR mode when outside the atmosphere to detect and discriminate.



That is the impression I got from the comments I quoted. A mini satellite that acts as a temporary relay station for the AShBM warhead. Also, how does one get around the heat stresses of reentry and terminal phase while using a non-metallic, non ceramic and rf transparent nosecone?


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## triangle

sha ah said:


> In regards to Iran, the Iranian government brought the sanctions upon themselves by constantly yelling "death to America" Like Obama said, "death to America doesn't produce jobs for Iran" In any case what's done is done.



Offtopic, but shouting 'death to America' is just one part of the 'resistance path' Iran has chosen. It is this resistance ideology that prevents two things in Iran:

1. Preventing an economic boom generated by dealings with the West, that would embolden and strengthen popular support for the reformist camp and threaten the principalists.
2. Preventing the use of this economic boom to threaten with sanctions by the West if Iran does not obey the wishes of the West. Carrot and stick method.

If Iran fails in this, then two scenario's follow: After Khamenei there will be no SL anymore through 'democratic' and relatively 'peaceful' means instigated by the reformist camp or a Syria scenario wherein Iran gets torn into pieces and thus does not constitute a threat to the west anymore.

It might be possible that Iran has found a different way. The 25 year economic and strategic engagement with China which doesn't care about 'democracy' and 'human rights' but does care about 'stability' and 'harmony'

Full on economic engagement with the West brings a big chance of ideological suicide for Iran, but not if it chooses full economic engagement with China and the wider Eurasia.


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## PeeD

triangle said:


> That is the impression I got from the comments I quoted. A mini satellite that acts as a temporary relay station for the AShBM warhead. Also, how does one get around the heat stresses of reentry and terminal phase while using a non-metallic, non ceramic and rf transparent nosecone?



Up to DF-26 range the ceramic radome solutions of the Chinese seems to be sufficient. The MaRV slows down sufficiently in upper layers to be slow enough to make the ceramic radome survive.

A faster suborbitale "sat" may be necessary for longer range and faster weapons.

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## sha ah

If Iranians didn't yell "death to America" there still would have been sanctions from the US because of Israel, however other nations would have been less likely to cooperate with those sanctions since the chants make Iran appear to be aggressive and belligerent. Iran hasn't attacked any nation in 300 years but image / present impressions are everything. 

As funny as this sounds, everything happens for a reason and in the long run you could argue that the recent sanctions will greatly benefit Iran. For example, Russia refused to provide the S-300 to Iran, therefore Iran invested in its own industry and has made massive leaps in air defense technology. As they say necessity is the mother of invention. 

At the same time because Iran is no longer able to sell as much oil as it would like, it has forced Iran's economy to wean off of oil dependence and focus more on internal development and industry. Meanwhile many gulf Arab states are completely dependent on oil sales and they're pumping out as much as humanly possible. 

The price of oil has fallen recently and the world is slowly shifting towards newer, cleaner forms of renewable energy. At the same time the oil isn't going to last forever and the way things are going, when the gulf Arabs finally do run out one day, Iran will still have lots of energy reserves remaining for its internal consumption and for export.

Iran's economy is set to grow in 2 years regardless. The deal with China can be beneficial however only time will tell whether it will work out in Iran's favor. Right now the Iranian government are just overjoyed to have defeated US efforts at the UN to extend the UN weapons embargo. 

Next time if Iran signs any deal with the west or any nation, the benefits must be guaranteed, otherwise it's pointless. 

Chinese do indeed believe in human rights. However their idea of human rights is people having access to food, medicine and vital necessities in life.



triangle said:


> Offtopic, but shouting 'death to America' is just one part of the 'resistance path' Iran has chosen. It is this resistance ideology that prevents two things in Iran:
> 
> 1. Preventing an economic boom that would embolden and strengthen popular support for the reformist camp and threaten the principalists.
> 2. Preventing the use of this economic boom to threaten with sanctions by the West if Iran does not obey the wishes of the West. Carrot and stick method.
> 
> If Iran fails in this, then two scenario's follow: After Khamenei there will be no SL anymore through 'democratic' and relatively 'peaceful' means instigated by the reformist camp or a Syria scenario wherein Iran gets torn into pieces and thus does not constitute a threat to the west anymore.
> 
> It might be possible that Iran has found a different way. The 25 year economic and strategic engagement with China which doesn't care about 'democracy' and 'human rights' but does care about 'stability' and 'harmony'
> 
> Full on economic engagement with the West brings a big chance of ideological suicide for Iran, but not if it chooses full economic engagement with China and the wider Eurasia.


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## triangle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301471244009828352
Interesting as I searched on Mehr, Tasnim and IRNA and found only a partial photo of that stand which cropped out that radar radome.









افتتاح نمایشگاه نهضت قطعه سازی


ایرنا - تهران - تهران- ایرنا- گیربکس دریایی بومی‌سازی شده انواع شناورهای دریایی روز پنجشنبه با حضور سرتیپ امیر حاتمی وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح در نمایشگاه نهضت قطعه سازی رونمایی شد.




www.irna.ir






https://img9.irna.ir/d/r1/2020/09/03/4/157596820.jpg











Edit: Is that epoxy resin in those cans and bottles?

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## skyshadow

have you seen this missile before ? it looks like Sayyad 2 but it's nose is longer


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## skyshadow

*you can see all kinds of missile seekers here from IR to Radars*

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## skyshadow



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## Mithridates

i wish there was some object nearby for reference and comparison. to my eyes this seeker dome looks really huge:






is it for a new cruise missile?? or maybe that anti ballistic missile system works with IR seeker??


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## PeeD

For Nasr series, less likely for Noor family.

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## triangle

Would it be suspicious if a foreigner would visit such a public military exhibition and proceeds to take an up-close photo of every item in that exhibition?

*I'm asking for a friend

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## skyshadow

triangle said:


> Would it be suspicious if a foreigner would visit such a public military exhibition and proceeds to take an up-close photo of every item in that exhibition?
> 
> *I'm asking for a friend


no but these are not public exhibitions


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## triangle

Shawnee said:


> Looking at Abqaiq, it is very difficult to beat the Iranian reliability and accuracy in missiles. There is little room to improve. Note that some of missiles are solely decoy or for electronic warfare.



Source or proof? The reliability of Iran's missiles that have been fired in anger seem to be ranging anywhere from 40 to 60 percent. https://breakingdefense.com/2020/01/massive-improvement-in-accuracy-of-iran-missiles-over-scud-b/



> So far I have not seen a single footage of a Turkish missile beyond 300 km range. I am not even discussing accuracy here. All I have seen about Yildrim 600 has been words and no footage. Accuracy comes after reaching the range.



Yes, Turkey is lacking in ballistic missile technology compared to Iran. But not something that isn't rectifiable in 10 years time.



> Erdogan’s promise was to have an SLV by 2020. Never happened. Even not a test. You can’t have secret testing of missiles. The world is watching it.



Source?



> Also Turkey has signed missile non proliferation treaty and is bound to 300 km. Missile tests are not secret.



Do you mean MTCR and HCOC? If so, they are codes of conduct and not legally binding.



> Finally ToT has limitations. SK had a satellite launch with Russian ToT that reached nowhere. Turkey cannot do better than SK.



Source? And if someone can't do it, it doesn't means someone else can't do it too. I'm sure that is a fallacy


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## TheImmortal

triangle said:


> Yes, Turkey is lacking in ballistic missile technology compared to Iran. But not something that isn't rectifiable in 10 years time.



You seem like a Turkish troll.

North Korea has been making missiles since the 70’s and Iran has been making missiles since the 90’s.

But magical Turkey is going to reach where Iran and North Korea are in 10 years? They aren’t even going to launch their first micro satellite SLV till 2025. Iran did that over 10 years ago.

Turkey isn’t going anywhere. That country has so many fifth columns and is filled with spies. Erdogan is losing grip on power. They are making enemies with everyone around them even Iran.

10 years? As the Turks say “belakh” my friend.


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## Figaro

BHAN85 said:


> I think nobody doubt about the explosive, the doubt is about the accuracy in that long range missile, they can hit some target in Syria too.
> 
> If Iran can prove the accuracy of 1 meter to hit Bibi head, maybe Israel will stop of try to do stupid things against Iran.
> 
> Iranian missiles only have inertial guidance?


Did you not see the accuracy of Iranian missiles against Al Asad Airbase earlier this year? Their missiles, who Western analysts previously said had hundreds of meters to near one kilometer CEP were extremely accurate, the extent of five to ten meters. As usual, idiot Western analysts blowing smoke out of their arses.


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## triangle

TheImmortal said:


> You seem like a Turkish troll.


I'm neither Turkish, nor a troll.



TheImmortal said:


> North Korea has been making missiles since the 70’s and Iran has been making missiles since the 90’s. But magical Turkey is going to reach where Iran and North Korea are in 10 years? They aren’t even going to launch their first micro satellite SLV till 2025. Iran did that over 10 years ago.



They've recently shown carbon weaved solid-fuel boosters, movable rocket nozzle and graphite nose tips. And before that a retired air force general broke word about a 2000 km range missile. And even before that, Roketsan was developing a celestial navigation system. And in jan 2018, there was a secret agreement signed between Roketsan and TUVASAS about the development of a 10x10 TEL.



> Turkey isn’t going anywhere. That country has so many fifth columns and is filled with spies. Erdogan is losing grip on power. They are making enemies with everyone around them even Iran.



Not anymore since July 2016. I'm sure they won't put their nuclear secrets in an abandoned carpet cleaning facility. 




TheImmortal said:


> 10 years? As the Turks say “belakh” my friend.



Where was Iran 10 years ago? Could it imagine having indigenous SAM's like the S-400, AESA radars, pin-point accurate ballistic missiles, turbofan engines with single crystal turbine blades and 4th gen fighter avionics and active guided BVR missiles? And I haven't even mentioned subs, cruise missiles and the likes.

Don't now what belakh is.


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## TheImmortal

triangle said:


> I'm neither Turkish, nor a troll.
> 
> 
> 
> They've recently shown carbon weaved solid-fuel boosters, movable rocket nozzle and graphite nose tips. And before that a retired air force general broke word about a 2000 km range missile. And even before that, Roketsan was developing a celestial navigation system. And in jan 2018, there was a secret agreement signed between Roketsan and TUVASAS about the development of a 10x10 TEL.
> 
> 
> 
> Where was Iran 10 years ago? Could it imagine having indigenous SAM's like the S-400, AESA radars, pin-point accurate ballistic missiles, turbofan engines with single crystal turbine blades and 4th gen fighter avionics and active guided BVR missiles? And I haven't even mentioned subs, cruise missiles and the likes.
> 
> Don't now what belakh is.



They were liquid fuel not sold fuel tanks. Turkey says a lot of things then doesn’t deliver. Like there SLV program that now is saying 2025 for first launch.

Solid fuel and Liquid fuel Missiles are notoriously difficult to master. Iran has lost tens if not hundreds of personnel’s mastering engines and fuel. It’s a dangerous process. Hence why you can not compare tanks and air defense systems to ballistic missiles. There are only a handful of countries in the world that produce long range BMs if you exclude countries that have nuclear BMs.

The lira is plummeting and this is with little to no major sanctions.

Turks lack strategic vision right now, they are a bull in a China shop picking fights with everyone. Their allies (if you exclude NATO) are all weak countries.

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## Saleh99

triangle said:


> I'm neither Turkish, nor a troll.
> 
> 
> 
> They've recently shown carbon weaved solid-fuel boosters, movable rocket nozzle and graphite nose tips. And before that a retired air force general broke word about a 2000 km range missile. And even before that, Roketsan was developing a celestial navigation system. And in jan 2018, there was a secret agreement signed between Roketsan and TUVASAS about the development of a 10x10 TEL.
> 
> 
> 
> Not anymore since July 2016. I'm sure they won't put their nuclear secrets in an abandoned carpet cleaning facility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where was Iran 10 years ago? Could it imagine having indigenous SAM's like the S-400, AESA radars, pin-point accurate ballistic missiles, turbofan engines with single crystal turbine blades and 4th gen fighter avionics and active guided BVR missiles? And I haven't even mentioned subs, cruise missiles and the likes.
> 
> Don't now what belakh is.


active guided BVR missiles? You mean fakour? I’m waiting for iran to display a missile like R-77 or AIM-120...


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## Saleh99

Raghfarm007 said:


> Comparing Turkey and Iran is silly. I have been to Turkey several times, and like it there.... but even their infrastructure is way behind Irans.
> 
> I always say that Iran actually makes things while Turkey proissies to make things in the near future.


Well in many technological aspects, iran is behind turkey. We can’t forget iran is under sanctions and restrictions while turkey’s companies are integral part of of the western industries and they have relations with all military companies in the world and can have access to the technology.


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## triangle

Raghfarm007 said:


> Comparing Turkey and Iran is silly. I have been to Turkey several times, and like it there.... but even their infrastructure is way behind Irans.



I'm sure @MMM-E would disagree with that statement


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## Mithridates

triangle said:


> I'm sure @MMM-E would disagree with that statement


oh come on man.

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## triangle

Mithridates said:


> oh come on man.



Prepare yourself

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## Raghfarm007

Saleh99 said:


> Well in many technological aspects, iran is behind turkey. We can’t forget iran is under sanctions and restrictions while turkey’s companies are integral part of of the western industries and they have relations with all military companies in the world and can have access to the technology.



Oh really????

Name a few fields that Iran is behind....

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## Saleh99

Raghfarm007 said:


> Oh really????
> 
> Name a few fields that Iran is behind....


Drone technology, air Munitions, ground forces

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## Mithridates

Saleh99 said:


> Drone technology, air Munitions, ground forces


they do not have an stealth drone, they do not have qased-3 like long range 2000 lb bombs and long range cruise missiles and on the ground they still use m-60 tanks...

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## aryobarzan

Saleh99 said:


> Well in many technological aspects, iran is behind turkey. We can’t forget iran is under sanctions and restrictions while turkey’s companies are integral part of of the western industries and they have relations with all military companies in the world and can have access to the technology.


I have also been in Turkey and travelled with car to see the country (I could speak some turkish as a result of living in Iran's turkish provinces)..I like Turks ..they live and act very much the same way as Iranians ..I felt like being in Iran as it was during the shah..but they are behind in infrastructure or having a truly indigenous industry...this is just because they have had to catch up to many years of being poor in the 60s and 70s..the years that Iran was moving fast economically...but they have done remarkably good considering that they only have tourism for their hard currency....I hope one day Iran and Turkey can actually work together but that has to wait until Turks find their way through politics..they are all over the map and soon need to focus on what it is that they want.......sorry off topic..I know,,

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## Saleh99

Mithridates said:


> they do not have an stealth drone, they do not have qased-3 like long range 2000 lb bombs and long range cruise missiles and on the ground they still use m-60 tanks...


Akinci, Akunsungur and Anka-S are much more advanced. Regarding air Munitions, t SOM, HGK Teber KGK NEB, also they have micro munition MAM and the umtas which is like hellfire missile. They developed advanced air-air missiles also. They are developing Altay next generation tank, their APCs and IFVs are better, also their artillery.

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## Mithridates

Saleh99 said:


> Akinci, Akunsungur and Anka-S are much more advanced.


they are advanced but they are just regular drones like mq-9 and shaheed-129. drones like saeqeh and simorgh can penetrate enemy airspace and bomb their targets.


Saleh99 said:


> Regarding air Munitions, t SOM, HGK Teber KGK NEB, also they have micro munition MAM and the umtas which is like hellfire missile.


we do not have a missile like SOM but we will build mobin soon. however we have ya ali cruise missile with 700 km range. 
yasin and balaban glider bombs are similar to the bombs you named and their maximum range is 120 km too.
umtas range is ~10 km which is similar to qaem and sadid bombs. on the other hand Iranian akhgar missile has 30 km range which is even more than hellfire. 
turkey lacks a qased like bomb which has 70-100 km range and warhead of 900 kg. also they do not have air launched ballistic missiles. also we know that a soumar/kh-55 has 3000 km range and our su-24 can carry two of them and potentially can target US in Europe and Diego Garcia island. turkey certainly can not do it.

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## Sina-1

Mithridates said:


> they are advanced but they are just regular drones like mq-9 and shaheed-129. drones like saeqeh and simorgh can penetrate enemy airspace and bomb their targets.
> 
> we do not have a missile like SOM but we will build mobin soon. however we have ya ali cruise missile with 700 km range.
> yasin and balaban glider bombs are similar to the bombs you named and their maximum range is 120 km too.
> umtas range is ~10 km which is similar to qaem and sadid bombs. on the other hand Iranian akhgar missile has 30 km range which is even more than hellfire.
> turkey lacks a qased like bomb which has 70-100 km range and warhead of 900 kg. also they do not have air launched ballistic missiles. also we know that a soumar/kh-55 has 3000 km range and our su-24 can carry two of them and potentially can target US in Europe and Diego Garcia island. turkey certainly can not do it.


Don’t waste your breath brother. Smells like a Turk troll disguised...

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## Mithridates

Sina-1 said:


> Don’t waste your breath brother. Smells like a Turk troll disguised...


i do not think he is trolling but the truth is other countries have a capable advertisement system for their military achievement. sadly we have a shitty media cover on our achievements...

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## Saleh99

Mithridates said:


> i do not think he is trolling but the truth is other countries have a capable advertisement system for their military achievement. sadly we have a shitty media cover on our achievements...


That’s one problem, iran unveiled a lot of weapons that are great but they never show us tests or something. I’m not a turkish troll, lebanese with iran and hezbollah.

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## Philosopher

Saleh99 said:


> That’s one problem, iran unveiled a lot of weapons that are great but they never show us tests or something. I’m not a turkish troll, lebanese with iran and hezbollah.



Iran does not need to show its systems in some weapons exhibition when they are used in actual conflicts all around the region. I find your comments very strange, Iran is one of the few nations that actually has proven its systems in combat, from UAVs to Air defence.

Regarding your comparison of other nations' UAVs to Iran, these other nations rely heavily on importing subsystems. How can you try to compare from Turkish UAVs when they're relying on imports, ranging from engines and even to something like a missile rack:









Revealed: how UK technology fuelled Turkey's rise to global drone power


UK-based manufacturer supplied crucial missile component to Turkish drone-maker during development stage




www.theguardian.com





Moreover, even forgetting the fact they're heavily relying on imports, I have no idea how you're coming to the conclusion those UAVs you mentioned are more advanced than Iranian UAVs. Iran is fielding stealthy, jet powered UCAVs. You cannot compare that to those relatively simpler propeller driven UAVs.

Turkey has made good development in certain areas, but it is folly to try and compare them to Iran given Iran has developed truly strategic systems like long range air defence, jet engines, pin point ballistic missiles etc via relying on indigenous subsystems. The only truly worthwhile area Turkey is ahead of Iran is in advertisement of their systems. Iran has not been too focused on proper advertisement for 1) security reasons, 2) little incentive given it could not export. If Iran becomes free to export post embargo lifting, you will see much better advertisement of its systems.

So yes, lets be be realistic. What Iran has achieved in last couple of decades under these sanctions and pressure is nothing short of extraordinary, some people tend to forget this and start comparing Iran to likes of S. Arabia (which relies totally on imports) and Turkey (which relies on imports to an extend too).

Anyway, this topic is about Iran's missile program so lets keep to topic.

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## TheImmortal

Saleh99 said:


> Drone technology, air Munitions, ground forces



Is this a joke?

Iran deployed drones in Iran-Iraq war that’s 40 years ago. Iran has one of the most diverse drone line ups in the world ranging from small drones (Yasir) all the way to flying wing that have flown from Iran to Syria and done bombing missions.

Nothing Turkey makes is true Turk design. Atlay tank is based on South Korean tank. Almost every major Turkish arms product has foreign technology built in or foreign guidance.

I’m not even gonna bother debating this topic. It is well known. Of course Iran could be in same situation if it was under no sanction. Iran has done this under heavy arms embargo, arms tech transfer sanctions, and sabotage by Israel and US of supply chain and raw materials.

Ground forces Iran is the first country in the world to be able to halt a color revolution by the West (Syria and Yemen) not even Russia (Ukraine) was as successful as Iran has been.

If you do not believe me google Pentagon planners analysis of Iranian forces. They are used in war game simulation because Iran is number one adversary in the world in being to mobilize foreign legions to win conflicts in other countries (again not my words but the words of Pentagon planners!)

Iran has been a heavy war game simulation because they are the most interesting country to simulate a global conflict against due to both asymmetric and symmetric capabilities.

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## Raghfarm007

In case you didnt know..... the air launched missiles Turkey claims to make now, Iran was making OVER 20 years ago. And the Iranian missiles are fully Iranian made:

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## QWECXZ

Sina-1 said:


> Don’t waste your breath brother. Smells like a Turk troll disguised...


Most probably an Israeli in disguise. He's trying to provoke us by downplaying our achievements against Turkey's achievements to extract more information about our capabilities. And he's using the Lebanese flag to make us think he supports Hezbollah.

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## Philip the Arab

Saleh99 said:


> Akinci, Akunsungur and Anka-S are much more advanced. Regarding air Munitions, t SOM, HGK Teber KGK NEB, also they have micro munition MAM and the umtas which is like hellfire missile. They developed advanced air-air missiles also. They are developing Altay next generation tank, their APCs and IFVs are better, also their artillery.


Well, my "Lebanese" friend it is simple to answer this question by factoring in Turkey is allowed Western technology because it is NATO. Many of the parts of systems are imported or foreign designs produced in Turkey. Turkey can catch up with Iran at this rate but give it at least a decade or a decade and a half.

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## triangle

Saleh99 said:


> Akinci, Akunsungur and Anka-S are much more advanced. Regarding air Munitions, t SOM, HGK Teber KGK NEB, also they have micro munition MAM and the umtas which is like hellfire missile. They developed advanced air-air missiles also. They are developing Altay next generation tank, their APCs and IFVs are better, also their artillery.



Are you perhaps on twitter with a pic of Imad mughniye?


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## Saleh99

triangle said:


> Are you perhaps on twitter with a pic of Imad mughniye?


Yes why🤔 i dk why you guys think i’m a troll or some spy😂

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## triangle

Saleh99 said:


> Yes why🤔 i dk why you guys think i’m a troll or some spy😂



Yeah I know, you are just a little behind on the rest on knowledge on military stuff and they are paranoid against any newcomer on here. Not all of them though, just a couple.

I advise you to lurk and google a bit more before posting 

But yes @Saleh99 is not a troll

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## Philosopher

xbat said:


> Turkey doesnt rush to produce it at home something like microprocessors, ccd sensor etc. Turkey focused final product design and crucial subsystems.



The point is, those "crucial subsystems" are what you're importing in many cases.





> When Turkey introduced SOM at 2011 nearly half of its components were foreign but today only thing is its engine and next year Kale KTJ3200 will be in serial production. Kale and P&W is partner for F35 engine production is in turkey , KTJ 3200 is funded Turkish government and IP rights belong to Turkey, so your wishes are not true, it has zero american contribution, if it is licensed there will be serial production long time ago, development started in 2012.



You're basically proving a point here in that you're assembling some foreign hardware and then acting as if you have the ability to produce its subsystems. It does not matter if you own the IP or not, it does not change the fact it was some foreign designed system with those same foreigners giving you the technology to assemble the products. There are so many examples here, ranging from the German submarines you were assembling, to your role in assembling the F-35 parts.



> when you plan to produce a jet engine nobody will sell it is materials,



Yes, and that is why Turkey does not have the ability to produce those materials, instead you have procured the subsystems and putting the final thing together.



> Turkey built them in house too.



You're assembling them in house, not building them from scratch. There is a huge difference.



> Turkish aviation engine maker is state owned TEI, They have 30,40, 50 , 115 hp gasoline , 155, 170 ,220 hp deisel engine, 38, 90, 300,400 lb turbojet and 1500hp turboshaft engines, all of designed and produced in turkey w*ithout foreign contribution*. ,



Given the fact you are relying on importing so many parts etc, this notion that you're producing 1500HP turboshaft engine without any outside aid/import is just propaganda.




> why dont you look at by yourself? you basically copy european and american engines and proud of it, your cars uses citroen car engine, i can list at least 10 engine manufacturer in turkey.



Forgetting the fact Iran has plenty of indigenously designed engine in many capacity, even if it did "copy" a foreign engine, you still need to have a robust industry to actually produce engines. This is a far cry from the likes of Turkey that directly import the subsystems/assemble and other technologies.





> in 2000 first national ballistic missiles fired.



By "national missile" do you mean the Chinese missiles you imported?



> First national rocket reached space in 2017 and first space vehicle(technically) made maneuvers at space in 2018.



Turkey has yet to show any space launch capabilities.



> Lastly need something about UAVs, we have many kind of them and there is no dependency any part of it.



Most of your UAVs are relying on foreign engines, and yet you say there is "no dependency on any part of it"?




> Making a wing shaped UAV doesnt make it stealth



Actually flying wing designs are lower RCS relatively speaking.



> , do they have RAM coating and IR management ?



RAM coating, most certainly yes.



> no because they are cheap!



Flawed logic. The UAV will follow its function in a cost effective manner, not utilising systems such as RAM could be contrary to its stated function of producing a very low RCS system. Unless you have any direct evidence to suggest otherwise, then refrain from making such statements.



> Bayraktar is also very low RCS



No, it is not. It has barely any low RCS design parameters. There only thing low RCS about it is the fact it is a drone, must of which are lower RCS by the virtue of their smaller sizes.



> and proved it on panstirs.



Pantsir downed many of your UAVs. The fact that you managed to destroy a few of them suggest a shortcoming in the Pantsir's design and also the importance of layered defence systems. You can take any systems and put it in the open and it will eventually get destroyed. Add that to the shortcomigns of the panstir, then it is not surprise it could be destroyed. Despite the Turkish propaganda, this was obvious to people. more-over, you are still running to purchase Russians air defence systems, that should tell you something.

If you want to see truly impressive use of UAVs, look at the Iranian attack on Saudi oil fields.




> making a small uav with jet is only increase its cost per flight our, it is a preference only .



A jet powered, stealthy UCAV is leagues above anything you have produced and compared to propeller driven system, it is of a higher strategic value in a multitude to factors.



> and why dont you look at yourself? iranian UAVs doesnt have laser designator(at least i dont see)



You should probably check closer.



> and uses ccd seeker with rf link to control small bombs,



Most of these Iranian UAB bombs are "fire and forget", once again, pay closer attention. There are enough thread running on this topic in this forum for you to become adequately informed.



> , i can tell many things but it is enough .



Only things you have told so far are attempts to hide the reality of your defence sector and hope (rather naively) that people here could not see through that. Like I have said before, Turkey has made some good progress, but you're nowhere near the level which has been propagandised by some of the Turkish members here. In reality, Turkey is about a decade or two behind the likes of Iran in truly indigenous developments. Not that this is a problem, if Turkey can meet its solution using foreigner imports/reliance, then go ahead, but do not engage in this folly of trying to insinuate you're on Iran's level when it comes to a truly indigenous defence sector. Iran got where it is out of necessity, Turkey has the luxury of importing from the likes of NATO and South Korea etc, Iran does not. so there are different paths the two nations had to take.

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## xbat

despite the propaganda iran smuggles many parts in turkey and turkish companies sanctions by west , the truth is harsh, iran cant make a simple electrical parts and grafit . 








New Sanctions under the Iran, North Korea, and Syria Nonproliferation Act (INKSNA) - United States Department of State


The U.S. is sanctioning 13 foreign entities and individuals in China, Iraq, Russia, and Turkey pursuant to the Iran, North Korea, and Syria Nonproliferation Act.




www.state.gov









__





Eren Karbon


Eren Karbon Grafit San. Tic.




www.erenkarbon.com.tr





good luck senyor with your super high tech.

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## Raghfarm007

From my experiance following Turkish military economic and industrial capabilities for over 20 years....and having travelled to Turkey several times.... I dont believe that Turkey has the Industrial ability to fully produce most of the things it claims.
We have ofcourse seen this many many ties over including with the F16 and the Migem, where every component was imported, including the naval grade steel sheets for the Milgem.

I am still waiting to see the production of the Turkish electric car that Ardugan showed off 3 years ago!!! Will it ever get produced? Unlikely....

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## xbat

Raghfarm007 said:


> where every component was imported, including the naval grade steel sheets for the Milgem.


the steel is turkish made, if you want to see turkish quality of steel you can check your railways too.

" "At the moment, the production of the first 40 thousand tons of this is almost finished and the first 10 thousand tons of rails were delivered to Iran. It was a good deal. Iran, as we know it, used 600 thousand tons of rails. Before this agreement, 10 percent of it is Kardemir. Now, with this volume of supply, Kardemir will have an important share in the Iranian campus. "








Kardemir, İran'a ray sevkiyatına başladı


Kardemir, İran'a ray sevkiyatına başladı




www.hurriyet.com.tr


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## Raghfarm007

Read what I said again..... the Naval grade steel was imported from Holland...... like the radars


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## Raghfarm007

xbat said:


> despite the propaganda iran smuggles many parts in turkey and turkish companies sanctions by west , the truth is harsh, iran cant make a simple electrical parts and grafit .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Sanctions under the Iran, North Korea, and Syria Nonproliferation Act (INKSNA) - United States Department of State
> 
> 
> The U.S. is sanctioning 13 foreign entities and individuals in China, Iraq, Russia, and Turkey pursuant to the Iran, North Korea, and Syria Nonproliferation Act.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.state.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eren Karbon
> 
> 
> Eren Karbon Grafit San. Tic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.erenkarbon.com.tr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good luck senyor with your super high tech.



Em..... its Turkey that impors Graphite from Iran.....not the otherway round:






Turkey Imports from Iran of Artificial Graphite, Colloidal Graphite; Preparations Based on Graphite - 2022 Data 2023 Forecast 2003-2021 Historical


Turkey Imports from Iran of Artificial Graphite, Colloidal Graphite; Preparations Based on Graphite was US$12.04 Thousand during 2021, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade.




tradingeconomics.com

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## xbat

tell to americans ok?


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## Philosopher

xbat said:


> tell to americans ok?



Ho posted a valid course stating your country is importing graphite material from Iran. It's difficult to take you seriously when you try to close your eyes to reality.

Regarding the American sanctioning of your company, Iran had used many companies in the past as a front. This does not mean Iran was importing anything from your country. It was simply using you as a front. Turkish baseline science and technology sector is very weak compared to Iran, especially in fields of nanotechnology. I am not surprised Turkey is importing from Iran.

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## Raghfarm007

LOL..... I dont need to.....they know these facts themselves.

The problem with the Torks is that they are simple minded, they dont investigate things themselves...... you think that the lies the American government has been coming up have any merrit? Perhaps You think Iraq had wepons of mass destruction? Or injecting bleech will cure Crona Virous?

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## xbat

why america imposes sanction to turkish company? because they sell high grade carbon grafit to iran, i dont deny that turkey import other graphite products, dont you understand?

and this is the company that produce milgem steel 
https://www.erdemir.com.tr/Sites/1/upload/files/Yassi_Urun_Katalogu_2020_TR-4649.pdf , it is turkish but there are codes if you can recognize the product

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## Philosopher

xbat said:


> why america imposes sanction to turkish company? because they sell high grade carbon grafit to iran, i dont deny that turkey import other graphite products, dont you understand?




Your comment makes no sense. If Iran is exporting graphite to your country, then why would it be in need of importing it from you? You do not produce higher quality graphite than Iran, you're in need of importing it from Iran.

Like I said, Iran was using your company as a front like it does many other companies. It was probably trying to use a Turkish company to secretly import systems from major NATO powers like the Europeans.

It is Turkey that is importing nanotech from Iran, not the other way around:

*Iran exporting Nano products to 50 countries*

According to the official, countries such as Iraq, *Turkey*, Georgia, India, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Armenia and China are some importers of Iranian nanotechnology products.









Iran exporting Nano products to 50 countries


Tehran (ISNA) - Director of Iran’s Special Nanotechnology Headquarters Market and Industry Workgroup, Reza Asadi-Far announced that Iran exports nanotechnology products to 50 countries around the world.




en.isna.ir

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## Raghfarm007

They have been trying to put pressure on Turkey as well as many other countries by putting sanctions for bullcrap reasons.
They did the same for Huawei of china, and said they had sold things to Iran so they are putting sanctions on them..... bu everyone knows the real reason for those sanctions are not because they sold phones to Iran.

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## triangle

PeeD said:


> From where you got this? Chinese AshBMs are not fast enough for orbital velocity. You probably mean a suborbital "satellite" but that would be quite an effort, given that the MaRV can safely use its radar seeker in SAR mode when outside the atmosphere to detect and discriminate.





ZeEa5KPul said:


> What is unclear is exactly how many missiles China fired. It seems evident from the diagram that two missiles were fired (which would also demonstrate China’s capability to accurately coordinate strikes from different PLARF bases and units), but some reports claim four missiles were fired. It might be a simple error in reporting, or it might be an indication of an interesting capability these missiles are speculated to have.
> 
> It’s been hypothesized that the AShBM bus launches a targeting probe as the warhead descends to fix the target’s location and communicate it to the warhead so that it can perform corrective manoeuvres. This would be an ingenious solution to multiple problems with AShBM targeting: it would carry a larger sensor package than the warhead can fit in its nosecone, which would allow for scanning a larger area more comprehensively (which also frees up volume and weight in the warhead to pack more explosive). By remaining above the atmosphere, the probe would avoid being blinded by plasma formed from the heat of re-entry and can remain in contact with the warhead by transmitting data to its much cooler rear.
> 
> To an observer with no knowledge of this system, this would look like the missile launching two warheads – hence two missiles mistakenly being reported as four.

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## skyshadow

*coast-to-sea medium range cruise missile, Ghadr *

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## skyshadow

*Nasr short range cruise missile *

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## skyshadow

*Is that our flag in an Hamas missile documentary ?











Iranian Fajr-5 long-range artillery rockets 














*

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## triangle

skyshadow said:


> *Is that our flag in an Hamas missile documentary ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 669592
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian Fajr-5 long-range artillery rockets
> 
> View attachment 669593
> 
> 
> View attachment 669594
> 
> 
> View attachment 669595
> *

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## TheImmortal

China cold launches an SLV carrying 9 satellites.

What a beast of a missile


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305767563503300609

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## PeeD

9 optical sats at 50kg each and claimed 1m resolution.

Iran needs such a capability for wartime and is working towards it.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> 9 optical sats at 50kg each and claimed 1m resolution.
> 
> Iran needs such a capability for wartime and is working towards it.


for now we only have 15 m and after that we have 5 m and then 2.5 m in development for the year 1404

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## PeeD

skyshadow said:


> for now we only have 15 m and after that we have 5 m and then 2.5 m in development for the year 1404



Yes, but lets hope IRGC-ASF developes such <50kg, 1m resolution cubesats faster than the space agencys roadmap.
Of course infrared and SAR are needed too and may bring results faster than opticals.

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## skyshadow

PeeD said:


> Yes, but lets hope IRGC-ASF developes such <50kg, 1m resolution cubesats faster than the space agencys roadmap.
> Of course infrared and SAR are needed too and may bring results faster than opticals.



your wish came to life really fast. and i want a million dollars ??    




He added that Payam II satellite will be missioned to send images* with a resolution of less than one meter,* adding that it will be orbited in an altitude of 500km to 600km.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1306893616594518017

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## TheImmortal

Balamir said:


> I specifically looked into this title. I wondered if the Iranians are their comments about the exhibit on August 30 that Turkey's system. Because I corresponded with an Iranian on Twitter and he made sensible comments. However, those here have no information about the Turkish defense industry. They only followed a few reports of European origin. There is a lot to write about but this is not the right title. Turkey to understand what is in the best situation of the Iranian defense sanaiyi follow the english forum.
> 
> I'll leave a few things here.
> 
> Retired General Erdoğan Karakuş: We have no problem with our missile manufacturing. We are currently producing around 2000 km of missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solid fuel 1st stage of MUFA test rocket with a diameter of approximately 1.35 m. How many km range ballistic missiles do you think can be made from this?
> View attachment 671728



Turkey doesn’t not have 2000KM missiles. Let’s cut the nonsense.

If Iran made a claim to have 10,000KM and never showed it or there was no proof this entire forum would mock Iran.

But we are supposed to believe Turkey has 2000KM missiles when they barely have function 200KM ones?

Please go back to your forum. Your claims mock the intelligence of those who follow ballistic missile development all around the world.

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## Balamir

TheImmortal said:


> Turkey doesn’t not have 2000KM missiles. Let’s cut the nonsense.
> 
> If Iran made a claim to have 10,000KM and never showed it or there was no proof this entire forum would mock Iran.
> 
> But we are supposed to believe Turkey has 2000KM missiles when they barely have function 200KM ones?
> 
> Please go back to your forum. Your claims mock the intelligence of those who follow ballistic missile development all around the world.


Not me but a retired general says this. I will also stay here, my purpose is to investigate. Know well that Turkey is conducting ballistic missile program, but can not explain it. Because Europe will take this as a direct threat to itself and will make the embargo it has already implicitly made more open and harsher. Turkey in Syria since the end of last operation under the embargo in Europe. Except for a few countries changing their minds.


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## Shawnee

Balamir said:


> Not me but a retired general says this. I will also stay here, my purpose is to investigate. Know well that Turkey is conducting ballistic missile program, but can not explain it. Because Europe will take this as a direct threat to itself and will make the embargo it has already implicitly made more open and harsher. Turkey in Syria since the end of last operation under the embargo in Europe. Except for a few countries changing their minds.



Is there any movie of any missile?

How about the tests? It needs multiple tests that can be seen by the whole world. Nobody has said a word about any test done by Turkey. It cannot be kept secret and a lot of tests are needed.

Finally, how about missile non proliferation pact signed by Turkey?

Your proof is a retired general. He can say anything.

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## Balamir

Shawnee said:


> Is there any movie of any missile?
> 
> How about the tests? It needs multiple tests that can be seen by the whole world. Nobody has said a word about any test done by Turkey. It cannot be kept secret and a lot of tests are needed.
> 
> Finally, how about missile non proliferation pact signed by Turkey?
> 
> Your proof is a retired general. He can say anything.


In 2017, we did not know about the first rocket that went into space at an altitude of 130 km. Whoever follows the Russian or US radars should ask them the question. An anecdote: Not a single report has been made of the Bora missile, which started in 2009 and entered the inventory in 2014. This missile was requested to be used in the coup attempt on 15 July 2016. In this way, his name was mentioned in the investigation file. It was made public the following year. So, if he hadn't been mentioned in the coup investigation, we didn't know about Bora right now. Here you do not have to prove anything as a goal in Turkey, I explained some of the developments. I'm sure you didn't know about the solid fuel rocket stage in the photo I added.


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## skyshadow

Balamir said:


> I specifically looked into this title. I wondered if the Iranians are their comments about the exhibit on August 30 that Turkey's system. Because I corresponded with an Iranian on Twitter and he made sensible comments. However, those here have no information about the Turkish defense industry. They only followed a few reports of European origin. There is a lot to write about but this is not the right title. Turkey to understand what is in the best situation of the Iranian defense sanaiyi follow the english forum.
> 
> I'll leave a few things here.
> 
> Retired General Erdoğan Karakuş: We have no problem with our missile manufacturing. We are currently producing around 2000 km of missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solid fuel 1st stage of MUFA test rocket with a diameter of approximately 1.35 m. How many km range ballistic missiles do you think can be made from this?
> View attachment 671728


that's look more like a 1.5 m but if we say Turkey has Iranian level technology with soiled fuel and all composite casing 1.35 m if its 17-18 m in height 2 stage then you will get around 2500 - 3000 km with 1 to 1.5 ton warhead with an speed of at least mach 10+ with 400 km altitude and you can always reduce warhead to get more range out of it but in that case you pushing it to its absolute limit and sacrificing accuracy and balance of the missile in long run. so here you go that's my analysts but these numbers change with final models and material used i don't think composite can handle these stress levels


the final model would look something like this with some changes of course

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## Philosopher

This thread is about *Iranian* missiles. Stay on topic.

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## Balamir

My aim in this title was to do research on Iran. In addition, Turkey's opinion to declare that I wondered about the Iranian rocket that diagnosis. As I expected, there was a discussion. I wanted to make a contribution to the sight of those recent articles about Turkey. that is all.


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## Philosopher

Balamir said:


> My aim in this title was to do research on Iran. In addition, Turkey's opinion to declare that I wondered about the Iranian rocket that diagnosis. As I expected, there was a discussion. I wanted to make a contribution to the sight of those recent articles about Turkey. that is all.



Feel free to ask questions regarding Iranian missile program, but post programs of other nations in their own sections otherwise this thread will become too diluted with irrelevant information.

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## Philosopher

*Iran to Unveil New Defense Projects: Top General*

*TEHRAN (Tasnim) - Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces said this year’s Sacred Defense Week in Iran would be marked with the unveiling of tens of new defense projects.*
Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces Major General Mohammad Hossein Baqeri attended a ceremony at the Islamic Revolution and Sacred Defense Museum of Tehran on Monday morning, held in commemoration of the veterans of the imposed war of the 1980s.

The top commander said this year’s Sacred Defense Week would be marked with the inauguration of “tens of defense projects and hundreds of construction projects”.
He also noted that 8 new Sacred Defense museums will open across Iran during the Sacred Defense Week, bringing the total number of war museums to 23.

In 2025, Iran will have 36 Sacred Defense museums and a museum of war against arrogance in the eastern city of Tabas, he added.
In Iran, the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war is known as the Sacred Defense, and the Sacred Defense Week is held on the anniversary of the beginning of the war in September.
The outbreak of coronavirus has canceled this year’s military parades in remembrance of the martyrs in the eight-year Iraqi-imposed war.






Iran to Unveil New Defense Projects: Top General - Defense news - Tasnim News Agency


TEHRAN (Tasnim) - Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces said this year’s Sacred Defense Week in Iran would be marked with the unveiling of tens of new defense projects.




www.tasnimnews.com

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## Shams313

Philosopher said:


> *Iran to Unveil New Defense Projects: Top General*
> 
> *TEHRAN (Tasnim) - Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces said this year’s Sacred Defense Week in Iran would be marked with the unveiling of tens of new defense projects.*
> Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces Major General Mohammad Hossein Baqeri attended a ceremony at the Islamic Revolution and Sacred Defense Museum of Tehran on Monday morning, held in commemoration of the veterans of the imposed war of the 1980s.
> 
> The top commander said this year’s Sacred Defense Week would be marked with the inauguration of “tens of defense projects and hundreds of construction projects”.
> He also noted that 8 new Sacred Defense museums will open across Iran during the Sacred Defense Week, bringing the total number of war museums to 23.
> 
> In 2025, Iran will have 36 Sacred Defense museums and a museum of war against arrogance in the eastern city of Tabas, he added.
> In Iran, the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war is known as the Sacred Defense, and the Sacred Defense Week is held on the anniversary of the beginning of the war in September.
> The outbreak of coronavirus has canceled this year’s military parades in remembrance of the martyrs in the eight-year Iraqi-imposed war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran to Unveil New Defense Projects: Top General - Defense news - Tasnim News Agency
> 
> 
> TEHRAN (Tasnim) - Chief of Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces said this year’s Sacred Defense Week in Iran would be marked with the unveiling of tens of new defense projects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tasnimnews.com



Whats going to be displayed???

New missile projects or drone and air defence projects...


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## Philosopher

Shams313 said:


> Whats going to displayed???
> 
> New missile.projects or drone and aur defence projects...



Few months ago they said new missile system will be unveiled:



> TEHRAN — Brigadier General Bahman Kargar has announced plans to unveil a new missile system by the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) in the coming months.
> 
> Kargar said the missile system will be unveiled during the Sacred Defense Week, which commemorates the anniversary of Iraq’s imposed war against Iran, IRNA reported.











IRGC to unveil new missile system in September: general


TEHRAN — Brigadier General Bahman Kargar has announced plans to unveil a new missile system by the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) in the coming months.




www.tehrantimes.com

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## skyshadow

*unconfirmed news: Iran will unveil new cruise missiles in the coming days. *

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## skyshadow

*it seems this is IRGC twitter account *


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308073888849502214


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## Philosopher

I am hoping we will see supersonic anti ship cruise missiles.

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## Saleh99

Iran will unveil new achievements this week?


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1297837276408557569

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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309483371177877504

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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow

*this is for the ppl who like to know when was the first launch of Iranian missile ? and what was the result ?*










*March 14, 1985 *








*result*

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## skyshadow

*Falagh 1 and 2 rackets*

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309841493784485890

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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309845483788087297

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## skyshadow

cool  i like salami drawing

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## skyshadow

*i didn't know IRGC has ballistic missile named Zohir ( is it Raad-500 ? ).


IRGC Aerospace Park opened today. 


The new technology allows for the navigation of spacecraft, satellite carriers and anti-air defense missiles in the outer space. 

































IRGC Opens National Aerospace Park - Politics news - Tasnim News Agency


TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) inaugurated a ‘National Aerospace Park’ in Tehran.




www.tasnimnews.com




*

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## skyshadow

*The latest ballistic missile of the IRGC named Zulfiqar_Basir was unveiled. This missile is equipped with a warhead with an optical detector with a range of more than 700 km. Previously, the Persian Gulf and Hormoz missiles (naval ballistics) had a range of about 300 and 250 kilometers. Tasnim*





























IRGC Unveils New Naval Ballistic Missile - Politics news - Tasnim News Agency


TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps unveiled a new naval ballistic missile with a range of over 700 kilometers.




www.tasnimnews.com

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## skyshadow

*container launched ballistic missile that was fired during a recent IRGC exercise.*

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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow

*Army ground force unveiled its own missile launcher*

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## skyshadow



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## Philosopher

Zolfiqar Basir E/O seeker:

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## Philosopher

Fateh-F?

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## Philosopher

Army's Labik-1 missile disguised as container:

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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt



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## Philosopher

Cluster warheads for our MRBMs:

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## skyshadow

*Is it me or u guys also think IRGC is going to bring military officials from other countries here to impress them and sell some weapons ? *

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310266722314645504

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310267478916833280

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## Messerschmitt



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## Sineva



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310307199575560193

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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow

*it really is a museum *

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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow

*look at the posters*

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 673823
> 
> 
> View attachment 673819

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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


>


its cool that they didn't bring the super computers meaning they are still being steadied


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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> *look at the posters*
> 
> 
> View attachment 674125



5th gen Iranian fighter? (CAD design on TV).

@PeeD


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## skyshadow

TheImmortal said:


> 5th gen Iranian fighter? (CAD design on TV).
> 
> @PeeD
> 
> View attachment 674133


could be but i don't know i think its Saegheh


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## TheImmortal

skyshadow said:


> could be but i don't know i think its Saegheh
> 
> View attachment 674134



Im not sure.

Iran dropped its attempt to introduce dual tail F-5. The evidence is when it unvieled Kowsar sporting a single tail.

Also the angle of the tails in the CAD design seems different.

Im looking for more evidence for this project

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## PeeD

TheImmortal said:


> 5th gen Iranian fighter? (CAD design on TV).
> 
> @PeeD
> 
> View attachment 674133



Seems the exhibition will be open to the public at some point, so I doubt any such hidden gem for now.

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## Messerschmitt



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## yavar



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## Philosopher

Wow. From the the video above Hajizadeh commented on the miniaturisation of Iranian guidance kits for ballistic missiles. They went from something this size:






To this:

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> *it really is a museum *
> 
> View attachment 674114







Here it is before the spectators showed up...

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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> Here it is before the spectators showed up...


damn  , it still crack me up


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## Sineva

Philosopher said:


> Wow. From the the video above Hajizadeh commented on the miniaturisation of Iranian guidance kits for ballistic missiles. They went from something this size:
> View attachment 674263
> 
> 
> To this:
> View attachment 674264


They went from big bulky mechanical gyroscopes to very small and compact laser ring gyros and fiber optic gyros,not to mention going from very inaccurate electro mechanical inertial guidance to fully digital solid state systems.Its about 60 years of technological development,but in irans case compressed into about 20 odd years

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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow

*isn't this cool? these 2 missiles almost have the same size but the first one ("Dezful" the white one) has almost 400 km more range on it*

let's call it *The White Wolf *

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## sanel1412

skyshadow said:


> *isn't this cool? these 2 missiles almost have the same size but the first one ("Dezful" the white one) has almost 400 km more range on it*
> 
> let's call it *The White Wolf *
> 
> View attachment 674959


Those 2 misssiles are Zolfaqar and Zolfaqar basir (one with white terminal EO guidance is latest unveiled naval version for mobile targets)
Zolfaqar - ذوالفقار


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## skyshadow

sanel1412 said:


> Those 2 misssiles are Zolfaqar and Zolfaqar basir (one with white terminal EO guidance is latest unveiled naval version for mobile targets),


i don't even need to go to details its written on it Dezful with biiiiig Farsi font, thats why im saying its cool because they are almost the same size with Dezful being the bigger one of course

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow

Very interesting pics of the 12-tube covert improvised launcher used to fire 122mm (Grad) rockets at Erbil Aiport. launch point was ~40km away; so launched from an elevated position or using something like the Iranain Arash-4 LR rocket.

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## skyshadow



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## Saleh99

Does anyone know something about this missiles shown on helicopters and fotros drone? I couldn’t find any footage or information...


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## sanel1412

skyshadow said:


> i don't even need to go to details its written on it Dezful with biiiiig Farsi font, thats why im saying its cool because they are almost the same size with Dezful being the bigger one of course


Yeah second missile is Dezful, one with EO head is Zolfaqar Basir, I didnt check second tag... just on first

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## skyshadow

sanel1412 said:


> Yeah second missile is Dezful, one with EO head is Zolfaqar Basir, I didnt check second tag... just on first


yes i saw Zolfaqar Basir too, Dezful Basir is next i think


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## Messerschmitt

An interesting post on Jangaavaran in Farsi in which the author calculated the speeds of five Iranian ballistic (and quasi-ballistic) missiles in different phases of flight: https://jangaavaran.ir/سرعت-موشک-های-بالستیک/

These are the *terminal speeds* of five selected missiles according to that post:
Zolfaghar: ~ Mach 7.5 (2600 m/s)​Dezful: ~ Mach 9 (3200 m/s)​Emad: ~ Mach 10.5 (3600 m/s)​Sejjil: Mach 12-13 (4200-4500 m/s) which matches up with the claimed speed of 4300 m/s by Iran​Khorramshahr: ~ Mach 16 (5600 m/s)​

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## Philosopher

Very good thread, click on it to see the rest.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1312332622555688960

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## Sineva

Heres one that gave me a good chuckle for obvious reasons 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1312059948331937794

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## Blue In Green

Messerschmitt said:


> An interesting post on Jangaavaran in Farsi in which the author calculated the speeds of five Iranian ballistic (and quasi-ballistic) missiles in different phases of flight: https://jangaavaran.ir/سرعت-موشک-های-بالستیک/
> 
> These are the *terminal speeds* of five selected missiles according to that post:
> Zolfaghar: ~ Mach 7.5 (2600 m/s)​Dezful: ~ Mach 9 (3200 m/s)​Emad: ~ Mach 10.5 (3600 m/s)​Sejjil: Mach 12-13 (4200-4500 m/s) which matches up with the claimed speed of 4300 m/s by Iran​Khorramshahr: ~ Mach 16 (5600 m/s)​



That Khorramshahr is just something else entirely man....I know Iran uses different warhead tips and makeups depending on the mission objective, so theoretically Iran could put a hardened penetrator tip on the Khorramshahr warhead and simply DIG straight into the ground at almost any subterranean target going at those insane speeds... A bunker buster and then some....

What an absolute beast of a missile. This and the Hajj-Qassem Q-BM along with the Dezful are my top favorites without a doubt. 

@PeeD @Philosopher 

Hey brothers, would it be logical to say that Iran uses specialized warheads for certain missions and some of the missiles Iran produces can use a multitude of different warhead configurations depending on what is needed? 

I've been thinking (just my opinion) that Iran is moving towards a sort of "swiss-army knife" approach to its missiles. In which the newer model missiles, specifically the booster section and targeting section can be mixed and matched with other warheads and payloads in order to fit mission parameters as needed. 

What's your guy's thoughts on this?

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## PeeD

Blue In Green said:


> That Khorramshahr is just something else entirely man....I know Iran uses different warhead tips and makeups depending on the mission objective, so theoretically Iran could put a hardened penetrator tip on the Khorramshahr warhead and simply DIG straight into the ground at almost any subterranean target going at those insane speeds... A bunker buster and then some....
> 
> What an absolute beast of a missile. This and the Hajj-Qassem Q-BM along with the Dezful are my top favorites without a doubt.
> 
> @PeeD @Philosopher
> 
> Hey brothers, would it be logical to say that Iran uses specialized warheads for certain missions and some of the missiles Iran produces can use a multitude of different warhead configurations depending on what is needed?
> 
> I've been thinking (just my opinion) that Iran is moving towards a sort of "swiss-army knife" approach to its missiles. In which the newer model missiles, specifically the booster section and targeting section can be mixed and matched with other warheads and payloads in order to fit mission parameters as needed.
> 
> What's your guy's thoughts on this?



The "babybottle" warhead is the standard common warhead from Qiam to Ghadr and to Sejil.
The HE version is known and the submunition version with 3 different submunition options. Thermobaric variant probably also exist.

At least 2 different MaRV variants of it are also known. One of them could be a penetrator.

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## Sineva



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## Saleh99

@Shams313

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## Shams313

Saleh99 said:


> @Shams313
> View attachment 676088
> View attachment 676089



I have the video featuring the whole museum ceremony....

The seeker....🙂


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## Philosopher

@Shams313

To answer your earlier question, even before the unveiling of Zolfiqar Basir, IRGC naval commander had talked about the existence of a 700km range Anti ship missile, this is how we _know_ this missile has been around for a while. Of course even before he came out and talked about it, we theorised its existence. And in the same way, I am certain Iran has anti-ship version of Dezfoul. Regarding Haj Qassem, they have already said it can be used for anti-ship roles as well.


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## Saleh99

Philosopher said:


> @Shams313
> 
> To answer your earlier question, even before the unveiling of Zolfiqar Basir, IRGC naval commander had talked about the existence of a 700km range Anti ship missile, this is how we _know_ this missile has been around for a while. Of course even before he came out and talked about it, we theorised its existence. And in the same way, I am certain Iran has anti-ship version of Dezfoul. Regarding Haj Qassem, they have already said it can be used for anti-ship roles as well.


Maybe also Emad Anti ship variant😍 because Hajizadeh once mentioned that they can hit ships at 2000km range..

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## Philosopher

Saleh99 said:


> Maybe also Emad Anti ship variant😍 because Hajizadeh once mentioned that they can hit ships at 2000km range..



Certainly. Check the thread I made regarding this topic:









Iran's Anti-Ship ballistic Missile Capability


Author: Philosopher Topic: Short article on Iran's anti-ship ballistic missiles In February 2011, Iran revealed a new ballistic missile called "Persian Gulf" (PG), this missile was a development on the Iranian Fateh-110 "quasi" ballistic missile but with an Electro-Optic seeker. What made this...



defence.pk

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## Messerschmitt

^ a documentary about Iran's missile development will be broadcasted today at 3:00 pm (IRST) on IRIB TV5 (Sima)

You should be able to watch it live here: https://www.telewebion.com/live/tehran
Or here: https://sepehr.irib.ir/

Source: https://mehrnews.com/xSR3b

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## Messerschmitt

برد بلند - ۱۴ مهر ۱۳۹۹: https://www.telewebion.com/episode/2386059

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## makranman

Messerschmitt said:


> برد بلند - ۱۴ مهر ۱۳۹۹: https://www.telewebion.com/episode/2386059


thanks for sharing. the content is not new and accurate tho. it is more of a "propaganda" for the 40th anniversary of the revolution than a documentary containing new info.
some of the footage are also unrelated to iran or any missile strike... (like the Chinese explosion thing...)


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## Hormuz

i have a question is there any footage showing the missile attacks from the IRGC on the u.s. base in erbil?
there is alot of videos and footage showing ain al assad but i can't find anything for the other base in erbil.


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## skyshadow

*Zolfaqar missile storage facility










*

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## Raghfarm007

Hormuz said:


> i have a question is there any footage showing the missile attacks from the IRGC on the u.s. base in erbil?
> there is alot of videos and footage showing ain al assad but i can't find anything for the other base in erbil.




The base in Irbil was a CIA base.... no footage or even sattelie immage has been shown....

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## skyshadow



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## Hormuz

Raghfarm007 said:


> The base in Irbil was a CIA base.... no footage or even sattelie immage has been shown....



thnx bro


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## Kiarash

skyshadow said:


> *Zolfaqar missile storage facility
> 
> View attachment 676335
> 
> 
> View attachment 676336
> *


 
It is computer-generated imagery (CGI).

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## skyshadow

Kiarash said:


> It is computer-generated imagery (CGI).


it gives an idea of what it will look like


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## Philosopher

*Iran Opens Teflon Wire Factory*

Iran’s defense minister inaugurated a factory producing Teflon cables with application in military and civilian industries
See below link for video:

*








Defence Minister: Enemies intensified sanctions to be foiled by Iran


Mashhad (IP) - Iran's Defense Minister Brigadier General Amir Hatami said on Tuesday that the more enemies try to drive Iran's into a corner through imposing sanctions, the more the Islamic country would decrease the possibility of such measures through entering special arenas.




iranpress.com




*

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1313535743789203456

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## skyshadow



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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 676655



Khorramshahr can theoretically be much longer if the weight of the warhead is reduced

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## Philosopher

That image was made in April this year and its already badly out of date. The speed of Iranian missile development is just incredible.

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## Saleh99

Philosopher said:


> That image was made in April this year and its already badly out of date. The speed of Iranian missile development is just incredible.


If it was made in april, I wonder why they didn’t put the dezful missile. New update should include Hajj qassem missile + dezful.

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## skyshadow



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## Philosopher

North Koreans revealed a new Giant ICBM. It is apparently liquid fuelled and according to some initial calculations, it could be able to deliver up to 3500kg to anywhere on the US:







Also, a variety of different MLRS systems:

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## Saleh99

I don’t know why iran doesn’t produce better mlrs launchers. They have the rockets and the guided ones, why only put 4 fajr-5 on a truck, and why only launch one zelzal or nazeat from a truck, can’t they manufacture better launchers? For example, fajr-5 is like smerch, but the Smerch launcher is 3 times bigger.
Another example, the picture shows a 600mm rocket launcher, same diameter as zelzal.

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## GWXP

Russians were not very happy with Smerch because it was too heavy and not very mobile so they created a lighter and more mobile version of Smerch with 6 missiles.

Creating a very heavy MLRS is not a good idea because the system will lack mobility and will be vulnerable to air attack.

A system with 6 missiles is the best option for long range MLRS

Regarding North Korean missile-- its a super ICBM with MIRV

If Iran could get this liquid fuel missile's technology from North Korea it would be a great addition to future Iran's Qaem solid fuel ICBM technology.

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## Philosopher

Saleh99 said:


> I don’t know why iran doesn’t produce better mlrs launchers. They have the rockets and the guided ones, why only put 4 fajr-5 on a truck, and why only launch one zelzal or nazeat from a truck, can’t they manufacture better launchers? For example, fajr-5 is like smerch, but the Smerch launcher is 3 times bigger.
> Another example, the picture shows a 600mm rocket launcher, same diameter as zelzal.
> View attachment 678185



Keep something important in mind, military is not about aesthetics but practicality ,utility, survivability etc. North Korea has a very weak economy with a GDP of only $28B, they would never be able to match Iranian production of missiles. Whenever anyone poses the question you have, I ask them the same type of question. Suppose you had 2 nations, called nation X and nation Y, each with 8 missiles. Nation X spread their 8 missiles over two trucks, of the type you posted above. Nation Y, spread their their 8 missiles over 8 "civilian looking" trucks, scattered and well blended. What do you think is a more capable and survivable layout? 

In the scenario above, both nations had equal number of missiles. In the case of Iran, there are not many countries out there that have more missiles than Iran and those large number of missiles are spread out in a very survivable and calculative manner.

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## TheImmortal

GWXP said:


> Russians were not very happy with Smerch because it was too heavy and not very mobile so they created a lighter and more mobile version of Smerch with 6 missiles.
> 
> Creating a very heavy MLRS is not a good idea because the system will lack mobility and will be vulnerable to air attack.
> 
> A system with 6 missiles is the best option for long range MLRS
> 
> Regarding North Korean missile-- its a super ICBM with MIRV
> 
> If Iran could get this liquid fuel missile's technology from North Korea it would be a great addition to future Iran's Qaem solid fuel ICBM technology.



Liquid fuel ICBMs are a waste of technology and resources.

Iran isn’t going to bother with that route.


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## Saleh99

TheImmortal said:


> Liquid fuel ICBMs are a waste of technology and resources.
> 
> Iran isn’t going to bother with that route.


I agree. Iran should move to SF missiles. If they cooperate with NK to get the technology used for pukkoksong-2. This missiles is a beast and has 2000km range.


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## PeeD

Philosopher said:


> Keep something important in mind, military is not about aesthetics but practicality ,utility, survivability etc. North Korea has a very weak economy with a GDP of only $28B, they would never be able to match Iranian production of missiles. Whenever anyone poses the question you have, I ask them the same type of question. Suppose you had 2 nations, called nation X and nation Y, each with 8 missiles. Nation X spread their 8 missiles over two trucks, of the type you posted above. Nation Y, spread their their 8 missiles over 8 "civilian looking" trucks, scattered and well blended. What do you think is a more capable and survivable layout?
> 
> In the scenario above, both nations had equal number of missiles. In the case of Iran, there are not many countries out there that have more missiles than Iran and those large number of missiles are spread out in a very survivable and calculative manner.



Right, but in their defense: North Korean military is made to operate "in the fire of a nuclear holocaust", everything tracked, everything armored, everything large.

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## TheImmortal

Saleh99 said:


> I agree. Iran should move to SF missiles. If they cooperate with NK to get the technology used for pukkoksong-2. This missiles is a beast and has 2000km range.
> View attachment 678215



Iran doesn’t need anything from North Korea. It’s the other way around.

Iran already has SF missiles with 2000KM+ range.

Iran already has large solid fuel engines. The decision to reveal an Iranian solid fuel ICBM is largely political.

Hence why Iran is going the SLV route instead, an “informal” declaration of ICBM status.

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## Saleh99

s


TheImmortal said:


> Iran doesn’t need anything from North Korea. It’s the other way around.
> 
> Iran already has SF missiles with 2000KM+ range.
> 
> Iran already has large solid fuel engines. The decision to reveal an Iranian solid fuel ICBM is largely political.
> 
> Hence why Iran is going the SLV route instead, an “informal” declaration of ICBM status.


SF with 2000km range means Sejjil?


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## TheImmortal

Saleh99 said:


> s
> 
> SF with 2000km range means Sejjil?



Sejil, Sejil-2, Ashura, Haj Qassem Gen 2, 

Not to mention all those solid engines at Shahrud can be used to build a 3000-6000KM missile fairly quickly.

The issue is Iran has no need for such a missile. Especially without nuclear weapons.

Maybe in future when an Iranian HGV is complete it will result in an conventional Iranian ICBM With HGV warhead in order to strike US mainland high value targets.


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## Mr Iran Eye

Let's not forget that Iran has several 3-missile platforms across the country.

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## Stryker1982

When I saw the pictures of NK vehicles for their rocket and missiles force, including the border amour for their infantry units, it really puts Iran to shame.

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## yavar

__





آپارات - سرویس اشتراک ویدیو







www.aparat.com





North Korea 75th 2020 military parade, HS-16 ICBM , Pukguksong-3 SLBM \Hwasong-15 ICBM\\Hwasong-12 IRBM


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## VEVAK

Saleh99 said:


> I agree. Iran should move to SF missiles. If they cooperate with NK to get the technology used for pukkoksong-2. This missiles is a beast and has 2000km range.
> View attachment 678215



Iran is and has been ahead of North Korea in Solid fuel Missiles! 

The decision to not build longer ranged Ballistic Missiles is strictly a strategic political decision and has nothing to do with Iran's technological capabilities...

According to Hajizadeh (The Commander of IRGC Aerospace Forces) when he was 1st given the position(2009) he took a detailed program to develop an ICBM to Iran's supreme leader and was shut down immediately and on the spot and was ordered to instead focus on accuracy.

Technologically Iran most definitely has and has had the capability to produce solid fuel ICBM's for a while, however, without a nuclear payload the cost/benefit analysis of a conventional warhead ICBM does NOT make sense especially since Iran does NOT possess the space assets needed to give them the accuracy needed to be worth the cost nor a nuclear deterrent that would prevent a nuclear response.

In my opinion, Iran's supreme leaders made a grave mistake by giving a Fatwah against building and stocking Nuclear Weapons. I believe he should have restricted his Fatwah to the use of nukes against civilians. If storing nukes can deter a nuclear attack on our soil then they are a very peaceful weapon. 

And Iran should revisit both decisions ( Nukes & ICBM) what are the Americans gonna do? Sanction us some more? So if anything this is the best time to do it and get it over with.

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## aryobarzan

Some simple language:

*North Korean*: (25 million population)

*1- prime enemy: US
2- Friends: China+ Russia
3-Defence against enemy: Nukes + ICBM 
4- Target: US mainland.
5- Political strategy: Smile and write love letters + increase your arsenal
6-Sanctioned: yes

Iran:* (80 million population)

*1- Prime enemy: US
2- Friends: China+ Russia
3-Defence against enemy: Conventional + Limited range BM. 
4- Target: US bases in middle east
5-Political strategy: Negotiation+Limit your capabilities by Fatwa
6-Sanctioned: yes

Something does not add up ...what am I not seeing!!




*



and no wooden Kalashnikovs!! Optics matter!


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## Saleh99

The Qased SLV launched by Iran has two liquid fuel stages or one liquid one solid?


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## skyshadow

Saleh99 said:


> The Qased SLV launched by Iran has two liquid fuel stages or one liquid one solid?


there is a third stage that no one knows if its liquid one solid , first stage is liquid the second stage is solid and the third stage is unknown.


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## Stryker1982

__





US Air Force Says New Hypersonic Missile Will Hit Targets 1,000 Miles Away In Under 12 Minutes


The U.S. Air Force says the hypersonic boost-glide vehicle warhead in its forthcoming AGM-183A Air-launched Rapid-Response Weapon hypersonic missile will fly at an average speed of between 5,000 and 6,000 miles per hour. This would be roughly between Mach 6.5 and Mach 8. At that speed, it will...



defence.pk





Sejjil can do it in 8.

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Air Force Says New Hypersonic Missile Will Hit Targets 1,000 Miles Away In Under 12 Minutes
> 
> 
> The U.S. Air Force says the hypersonic boost-glide vehicle warhead in its forthcoming AGM-183A Air-launched Rapid-Response Weapon hypersonic missile will fly at an average speed of between 5,000 and 6,000 miles per hour. This would be roughly between Mach 6.5 and Mach 8. At that speed, it will...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sejjil can do it in 8.


*and Haj qasem missile too*

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## HAIDER

Iran interested to buy K-300p

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## sha ah

According to some military analysts, many of the weapons which were shown in the recent North Korean parade are more prototypes rather than actually mass produced weapons. 

The tank they showed off for example, it looks very much like an Abrams or even a more polished Zulfiqar 2 tank. Interesting how it seems to have MANPADS attached to the side and even an APS but no reactive armor. When the new Abrams upgrades have some reactive armor.

The cannon and engine / power pack could very well be Chinese or North Korean variants / copies ? Who knows. 

Iran could easily produce an ICBM, however because of political reasons Iran doesn't. Iran would risk losing the support of Russia, China and the EU if it were to go ahead with an ICBM. 

Claiming that the Khorramshahr only has a range of 2000 km is questionable enough. If Iran were to come out with a massive ICBM and say "ooooh but it only has a range of 2500" there's no way anyone would buy that. Iran almost has enough fissile material for a few bombs right now.











We Take A Closer Look At North Korea's New Prototype Main Battle Tank


What we are seeing is likely more aspirational than operational, but that can change quicker than most care to admit.




www.thedrive.com







Stryker1982 said:


> When I saw the pictures of NK vehicles for their rocket and missiles force, including the border amour for their infantry units, it really puts Iran to shame.


----------



## Oldman1

sha ah said:


> According to some military analysts, many of the weapons which were shown in the recent North Korean parade are more prototypes rather than actually mass produced weapons.
> 
> The tank they showed off for example, it looks very much like an Abrams or even a more polished Zulfiqar 2 tank. Interesting how it seems to have MANPADS attached to the side and even an APS but no reactive armor. When the new Abrams upgrades have some reactive armor.
> 
> The cannon and engine / power pack could very well be Chinese or North Korean variants / copies ? Who knows.
> 
> Iran could easily produce an ICBM, however because of political reasons Iran doesn't. Iran would risk losing the support of Russia, China and the EU if it were to go ahead with an ICBM.
> 
> Claiming that the Khorramshahr only has a range of 2000 km is questionable enough. If Iran were to come out with a massive ICBM and say "ooooh but it only has a range of 2500" there's no way anyone would buy that. Iran almost has enough fissile material for a few bombs right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We Take A Closer Look At North Korea's New Prototype Main Battle Tank
> 
> 
> What we are seeing is likely more aspirational than operational, but that can change quicker than most care to admit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com


Thought the new Korean tank look like the Armata.


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## Bahram Esfandiari

sha ah said:


> According to some military analysts, many of the weapons which were shown in the recent North Korean parade are more prototypes rather than actually mass produced weapons.
> 
> The tank they showed off for example, it looks very much like an Abrams or even a more polished Zulfiqar 2 tank. Interesting how it seems to have MANPADS attached to the side and even an APS but no reactive armor. When the new Abrams upgrades have some reactive armor.
> 
> The cannon and engine / power pack could very well be Chinese or North Korean variants / copies ? Who knows.
> 
> Iran could easily produce an ICBM, however because of political reasons Iran doesn't. Iran would risk losing the support of Russia, China and the EU if it were to go ahead with an ICBM.
> 
> Claiming that the Khorramshahr only has a range of 2000 km is questionable enough. If Iran were to come out with a massive ICBM and say "ooooh but it only has a range of 2500" there's no way anyone would buy that. Iran almost has enough fissile material for a few bombs right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We Take A Closer Look At North Korea's New Prototype Main Battle Tank
> 
> 
> What we are seeing is likely more aspirational than operational, but that can change quicker than most care to admit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com



Are these the same "military analysts" that kept insisting that Iran's F-14 fleet was kept flying through 8 years of war through "Canalizing" parts? or the ones that insisted that Irans Missiles were "Photoshoped"? Seems like any Moron can become a Military analyst as long as what they spew forth is in line with what their pay masters want to hear.

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## raptor22

What kind of fuze our missile warhead use? does anyone know ?


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## SalarHaqq

aryobarzan said:


> Some simple language:
> 
> *North Korean*: (25 million population)
> 
> *1- prime enemy: US
> 2- Friends: China+ Russia
> 3-Defence against enemy: Nukes + ICBM
> 4- Target: US mainland.
> 5- Political strategy: Smile and write love letters + increase your arsenal
> 6-Sanctioned: yes
> 
> Iran:* (80 million population)
> 
> *1- Prime enemy: US
> 2- Friends: China+ Russia
> 3-Defence against enemy: Conventional + Limited range BM.
> 4- Target: US bases in middle east
> 5-Political strategy: Negotiation+Limit your capabilities by Fatwa
> 6-Sanctioned: yes
> 
> Something does not add up ...what am I not seeing!!*



If I humbly may: there are, perhaps, two aspect that could be added to the above comparison.

* Iran is invested in active, comprehensive and direct Resistance against the zionist entity, the DPRK not that much. While Pyongyag does indeed oppose the illegitimate apartheid regime of Tel Aviv and has even concretely contributed to the Resistance over the past decades (unlike most Arab states), which is very commendable on its part, its reach in this regard is nonetheless limited by virtue of geographic distance alone.

Had north Korea represented a similar challenge to the zionist entity as does Iran, US attitude (and pressures, including on China to prevent the latter from assisting her ally) would be of a different degree and nature. Since as we know, international zionism is one of the main pillars of power within America's governing structure.

* North Korean democracy is not pluralistic, unlike Islamic Iranian democracy. And what is more, one of the two halves of the establishment in Iran is actually apologetic towards the zio-American enemy and its imposed world order, thoroughly uninterested in resisting the latter and therefore also not keen at all in developing Iran's military might (see Zarif's statements that Iran stands "no chance" against the US militarily, or Rafsanjani's famous "in dore, doreye mushakbāzi nist").

Another consequence of this difference in political systems is that our north Korean friends tend to be, shall we say, a tiny tad more draconian in suppressing dissenting or subversive views and activism. If a north Korean ventured into insulting or wishing ill upon their beloved Leader like some Iranians do online (including ones residing in Iran), you would never hear of them again as they would surely vanish in a detention facility... in fact, you would never come to read such a thing from a resident of the DPRK anyway, since unlike Iran, north Korea has her own national internet system that is cut off from the zio-American dominated global network.

This access of the Iranian public to anti-IR media (satellite TV + internet) means that at least portions of the Iranian population are susceptible to propaganda, psy-ops and social engineering from Iran's foreign enemies, if these efforts aren't relayed by the in-house liberal fifth-column. This portion of the population can and is used to exert constant pressure on the patriotic, sovereignist and anti-imperialist half of the IR establishment, akin to a sword of Damocles.

Therefore, Iran cannot implement a DPRK-style 'Military First' policy as the one conducted by Great Leader Jong-Il Kim in the 1990's. Now western propaganda is doubtlessly exaggerating the scope of the issue, but nonetheless the 'Military First' effort, which created the modern military industrial infrastructure and R&D centers Pyongyang is currently benefitting from, came at a price for the valiant Korean people in terms of food security and material living standards. Already now, you can see how segments of the Iranian public brainwashed by the BBC, Manoto and Instagram / Telegram resort to slogans such as "na Qazze, na Lobnān"... imagine their reaction if Iran invested so much in her defence industries that the food security of these privileged middle classes seriously came into question.

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## SalarHaqq

SalarHaqq said:


> Also Syria took delivery of 2 batallions of Onix/Yakhont missiles in 2011 according to Russian publications cited here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-800_Oniks#Operators
> 
> Syria has them = good chance that Hezbollah and Iran will receive a couple examples as well.



Syrian Arab Army test of Yakhont supersonic anti-ship missile:






Syrian Arab Army test of ballistic missiles and heavy artillery rockets, including Iranian supplied M-600 (Fateh derivative) and Zelzal:






These sequences were uploaded to "YouTube" in 2012. Maybe that's also the year the tests took place.

By the way, the reported number of Yakhont deliveries to Syria was of 72 missiles. A random guess would then be, maybe 5 or 6 gifted to Hezbollah and a couple to Iran for reverse-engineering.




HAIDER said:


> Iran interested to buy K-300p
> 
> View attachment 679586
> 
> 
> View attachment 679589



After the S-400 and Pantsir AD systems, yet another weapon Iran is expected or known to have produced a dometic equivalent of, which presumably Russian sources claim Tehran is interested in importing. Now that the sanctions on Iranian arms exports are going to be lifted, this could well be disinformation intended to undermine a possible competitor in the eyes of potential clients, by suggesting Iran herself is unsure about the quality of her domestically-made armaments and thus still seeking to buy equivalents from Russia. Chances are that this is untrue.


----------



## raptor22

skyshadow said:


> there is a third stage that no one knows if its liquid one solid , first stage is liquid the second stage is solid and the third stage is unknown.


All stages except the 1st one are solid.

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## aryobarzan

SalarHaqq said:


> If I humbly may: there are, perhaps, two aspect that could be added to the above comparison.
> 
> * Iran is invested in active, comprehensive and direct Resistance against the zionist entity, the DPRK not that much. While Pyongyag does indeed oppose the illegitimate apartheid regime of Tel Aviv and has even concretely contributed to the Resistance over the past decades (unlike most Arab states), which is very commendable on its part, its reach in this regard is nonetheless limited by virtue of geographic distance alone.
> 
> Had north Korea represented a similar challenge to the zionist entity as does Iran, US attitude (and pressures, including on China to prevent the latter from assisting her ally) would be of a different degree and nature. Since as we know, international zionism is one of the main pillars of power within America's governing structure.
> 
> * North Korean democracy is not pluralistic, unlike Islamic Iranian democracy. And what is more, one of the two halves of the establishment in Iran is actually apologetic towards the zio-American enemy and its imposed world order, thoroughly uninterested in resisting the latter and therefore also not keen at all in developing Iran's military might (see Zarif's statements that Iran stands "no chance" against the US militarily, or Rafsanjani's famous "in dore, doreye mushakbāzi nist").
> 
> Another consequence of this difference in political systems is that our north Korean friends tend to be, shall we say, a tiny tad more draconian in suppressing dissenting or subversive views and activism. If a north Korean ventured into insulting or wishing ill upon their beloved Leader like some Iranians do online (including ones residing in Iran), you would never hear of them again as they would surely vanish in a detention facility... in fact, you would never come to read such a thing from a resident of the DPRK anyway, since unlike Iran, north Korea has her own national internet system that is cut off from the zio-American dominated global network.
> 
> This access of the Iranian public to anti-IR media (satellite TV + internet) means that at least portions of the Iranian population are susceptible to propaganda, psy-ops and social engineering from Iran's foreign enemies, if these efforts aren't relayed by the in-house liberal fifth-column. This portion of the population can and is used to exert constant pressure on the patriotic, sovereignist and anti-imperialist half of the IR establishment, akin to a sword of Damocles.
> 
> Therefore, Iran cannot implement a DPRK-style 'Military First' policy as the one conducted by Great Leader Jong-Il Kim in the 1990's. Now western propaganda is doubtlessly exaggerating the scope of the issue, but nonetheless the 'Military First' effort, which created the modern military industrial infrastructure and R&D centers Pyongyang is currently benefitting from, came at a price for the valiant Korean people in terms of food security and material living standards. Already now, you can see how segments of the Iranian public brainwashed by the BBC, Manoto and Instagram / Telegram resort to slogans such as "na Qazze, na Lobnān"... imagine their reaction if Iran invested so much in her defence industries that the food security of these privileged middle classes seriously came into question.


Thank you my friend and we are in full agreement on what you mentioned ..My point in making that comparison was to highlight two points:

1- The current* "Main"* target of iran against a possible US attack is to retaliate against US bases in middle east (as opposed to NK's US main land). Secondary targets for Iran are Israel and Arab banana kingdoms in Persian gulf. North Korea's secondary targets are South Korea and Japan. This target selection seems odd to me ...What is the rational behind omitting the US mainland as a target !

2- Somewhat related to *"Target"* selection...Is the choice of weapons...By not targeting US mainland, Iran has decided to stay within the 2000 km range limit and precision *conventional* strikes against pinpoint targets (morally applaudable but the enemy has no such standards). NK in contrast has decided on *nuclear and ICBM *delivery system (mass casualty in US before being eradicated from geography!). This approach is a one time deal and forces the US to think very hard before striking the NK. 

In Iran's case the strategy allows the US to have "Calibrated" strikes against Iran with the full knowledge that even if the situation escalates to a nuclear strike against Iran, the US mainland is free of danger..This Iranian strategy at first glance seems not very well thought of to an uninitiated fellow such as myself. 
I realize that my current assessment is solely based on public information and other unknown factors could be involved .

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## jauk

aryobarzan said:


> Thank you my friend and we are in full agreement on what you mentioned ..My point in making that comparison was to highlight two points:
> 
> 1- The current* "Main"* target of iran against a possible US attack is to retaliate against US bases in middle east (as opposed to NK's US main land). Secondary targets for Iran are Israel and Arab banana kingdoms in Persian gulf. North Korea's secondary targets are South Korea and Japan. This target selection seems odd to me ...What is the rational behind omitting the US mainland as a target !
> 
> 2- Somewhat related to *"Target"* selection...Is the choice of weapons...By not targeting US mainland, Iran has decided to stay within the 2000 km range limit and precision *conventional* strikes against pinpoint targets (morally applaudable but the enemy has no such standards). NK in contrast has decided on *nuclear and ICBM *delivery system (mass casualty in US before being eradicated from geography!). This approach is a one time deal and forces the US to think very hard before striking the NK.
> 
> In Iran's case the strategy allows the US to have "Calibrated" strikes against Iran with the full knowledge that even if the situation escalates to a nuclear strike against Iran, the US mainland is free of danger..This Iranian strategy at first glance seems not very well thought of to an uninitiated fellow such as myself.
> I realize that my current assessment is solely based on public information and other unknown factors could be involved .


Thanks for your thoughts. Note, your premise resides on Iran not having a nuclear strike capability. I'm personally confident they do and have had for at least a decade--maybe as far back as early to mid '90s and post defae moghadas. The execution must've started in parallel the moment the first plan was drawn for the various civilian nuclear fuel supply chain efforts. Almost certainly zeere bayraghe bakhshhaye veezheye goonagoone sepah. Everything ranging from ostensible tech know-how, industrial and scientific base to geopolitical actions/counteractions by various parties make this undeniable. The question to me is the quantity and radius of that reach mostly which you alluded to.

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## SalarHaqq

aryobarzan said:


> Thank you my friend and we are in full agreement on what you mentioned ..My point in making that comparison was to highlight two points:
> 
> 1- The current* "Main"* target of iran against a possible US attack is to retaliate against US bases in middle east (as opposed to NK's US main land). Secondary targets for Iran are Israel and Arab banana kingdoms in Persian gulf. North Korea's secondary targets are South Korea and Japan. This target selection seems odd to me ...What is the rational behind omitting the US mainland as a target !
> 
> 2- Somewhat related to *"Target"* selection...Is the choice of weapons...By not targeting US mainland, Iran has decided to stay within the 2000 km range limit and precision *conventional* strikes against pinpoint targets (morally applaudable but the enemy has no such standards). NK in contrast has decided on *nuclear and ICBM *delivery system (mass casualty in US before being eradicated from geography!). This approach is a one time deal and forces the US to think very hard before striking the NK.
> 
> In Iran's case the strategy allows the US to have "Calibrated" strikes against Iran with the full knowledge that even if the situation escalates to a nuclear strike against Iran, the US mainland is free of danger..This Iranian strategy at first glance seems not very well thought of to an uninitiated fellow such as myself.
> I realize that my current assessment is solely based on public information and other unknown factors could be involved .



Simple, brother: my response could be summarized in one word, namely Isra"el".

The US regime will *never* risk considerable damage to the zionist entity, given that successive US administrations have systematically been "Isa"el"-firsters" for the past several decades. The American political class and their regime are entirely under the thumb of international zionism.

Therefore efficient deterrence against Tel Aviv is just as good as deterrence against Washington. The US is every bit as sensitive - and arguably even more so, to large scale desctruction on Isra"el"i soil as it is to large scale destruction on US mainland.

And when it comes to the zionist entity, given three characteristics, massive conventional offensive capability is preferable to a nuclear one:

1) Even if nukes were used merely as a deterrent, Iran would not want an Islamic holy place like Masjed Al-Aqsa, as well as native Palestinians (Muslim, Christian, Jewish) to fall into the crosshairs of such a deterrent.

2) Isra"el" is tiny, its population small, its critical infrastructure limited in numbers. Conventional power can do the trick when the target list is so reduced.

3) Being a settler state and considering its relatively high level of development - inversely proportional to the population's patience and willingness to take casualties, its entire security calculus and in effect its viability as a functioning polity hinge upon its capability to convey an image of invincibility. If that public perception is seriously, palpably scarred or undermined, it'll be over, literally. For then, settlers from the west along with their capital will flee Palestine in the blink of an eye. Again, no nukes needed to finish off the viability of the zionist project.

So Iran's conventional deterrence is much, much more potent in keeping at bay the US and far more responsive to the challenge and threat Washington poses to Iran than meets the eye, due to the peculiarity and overwhelming weight of the Isra"el" factor in our equation.

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## aryobarzan

jauk said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. Note, your premise resides on Iran not having a nuclear strike capability. I'm personally confident they do and have had for at least a decade--maybe as far back as early to mid '90s and post jangeh moghadas. The execution must've started in parallel the moment the first plan was drawn for the various civilian nuclear fuel supply chain efforts. Almost certainly zeere bayraghe bakhshhaye veezheye goonagoone sepah. Everything ranging from ostensible tech know-how, industrial and scientific base to geopolitical actions/counteractions by various parties make this undeniable. The question to me is the quantity and radius of that reach mostly which you alluded to.


You are welcome mate!...Yes as you mentioned it is a possibility that Iran is indeed already a Nuclear power but I have tried to base my assessment on the public information only. And that possibility as you mentioned bring me to the following conclusion:

Two of Iran's "Main" and "secondary targets" namely the "US middle east bases" and "Banana" Arabs of Persian Gulf and their oil supply are losing their importance . As a stated aim of Iran and if successful, US will be leaving West Asia and abandon the bases all around Iran (Basically Iran shooting herself on the foot by losing those targets!).In addition oil based economy of the world is slowly moving away from oil and as such the importance of Arab oil to the world economy also losing its luster....That will leave "israel" as the only "valuable" target for Iran and this will make Iranian defensive strategy with much less deterrent. 

World is a dynamic place and a country such as Iran with powerful enemies should be flexible enough to define a new defensive posture towards the upcoming events . I hope the great Persian thinkers of Iran have taken all this into account long time ago and Iran's strategic plans are not what we read in open publications.

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## jauk

aryobarzan said:


> You are welcome mate!...Yes as you mentioned it is a possibility that Iran is indeed already a Nuclear power but I have tried to base my assessment on the public information only. And that possibility as you mentioned bring me to the following conclusion:
> 
> Two of Iran's "Main" and "secondary targets" namely the "US middle east bases" and "Banana" Arabs of Persian Gulf and their oil supply are losing their importance . As a stated aim of Iran and if successful, US will be leaving West Asia and abandon the bases all around Iran (Basically Iran shooting herself on the foot by losing those targets!).In addition oil based economy of the world is slowly moving away from oil and as such the importance of Arab oil to the world economy also losing its luster....That will leave "israel" as the only "valuable" target for Iran and this will make Iranian defensive strategy with much less deterrent.
> 
> World is a dynamic place and a country such as Iran with powerful enemies should be flexible enough to define a new defensive posture towards the upcoming events . I hope the great Persian thinkers of Iran have taken all this into account long time ago and Iran's strategic plans are not what we read in open publications.


...which brings us back to nuclear capable missiles, quantity, and radius...

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## Blue In Green

SalarHaqq said:


> Simple, brother: my response could be summarized in one word, namely Isra"el".
> 
> The US regime will *never* risk considerable damage to the zionist entity, given that successive US administrations have systematically been "Isa"el"-firsters" for the past several decades. The American political class and their regime are entirely under the thumb of international zionism.
> 
> Therefore efficient deterrence against Tel Aviv is just as good as deterrence against Washington. The US is every bit as sensitive - and arguably even more so, to large scale desctruction on Isra"el"i soil as it is to large scale destruction on US mainland.
> 
> And when it comes to the zionist entity, given three characteristics, massive conventional offensive capability is preferable to a nuclear one:
> 
> 1) Even if nukes were used merely as a deterrent, Iran would not want an Islamic holy place like Masjed Al-Aqsa, as well as native Palestinians (Muslim, Christian, Jewish) to fall into the crosshairs of such a deterrent.
> 
> 2) Isra"el" is tiny, its population small, its critical infrastructure limited in numbers. Conventional power can do the trick when the target list is so reduced.
> 
> 3) Being a settler state and considering its relatively high level of development - inversely proportional to the population's patience and willingness to take casualties, its entire security calculus and in effect its viability as a functioning polity hinge upon its capability to convey an image of invincibility. If that public perception is seriously, palpably scarred or undermined, it'll be over, literally. For then, settlers from the west along with their capital will flee Palestine in the blink of an eye. Again, no nukes needed to finish off the viability of the zionist project.
> 
> So Iran's conventional deterrence is much, much more potent in keeping at bay the US and far more responsive to the challenge and threat Washington poses to Iran than meets the eye, due to the peculiarity and overwhelming weight of the Isra"el" factor in our equation.



SalarHaqq, I just wanted to say that all your posts have been nothing short of well thought-out, highly detailed, adequately elucidated comments on various topics with good insight and opinions on matters ranging from weapons doctrine, to geo-politics, to regional power struggles and so on. You really add a much needed sense of well educated opinion/analysis on subjects that often don't get enough expanded discourse on them especially when taking things into a more holistic perspective. 

I would like to sincerely thank you for all you contributions here!!

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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## Sineva

Heres a nice cutaway including a close-up of the warhead

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## skyshadow

*Iran's Defence Minister Hatami said on live TV tonight that Tehran would sell arms only to countries that "won't misuse them" and use it for defence purposes. "Unlike America, we wouldn't do just about everything to make money," he added.*




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317908717539557376*breaking news: Iran is negotiation for its first arm expert and have been confirmed by defense ministry 


He said Iran would sell arms to countries that America won't sell weapons to. He said earlier that Tehran's started negotiations with potential buyers.*



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317908720223948805Iran secretary of Defense: We have a plan to buy and sell weapons / We have negotiated with different countries to buy and export, but surely our exports will be wider.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317903569811656707

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## Stryker1982

For sure we won't be selling anything like Fateh-110's to countries like Armenia and Azerbaijan. Nor do I think we will be selling anything to either countries anyways as to avoid exacerbating the problem there. Azerbaijan would be a good sell as they'd love to have some Fateh-110's or 313's to counter Armenia's Iskanders with greater force but their anti-Iran stance would make such a sale impossible.


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## NaCon

Potential customers: 
Syria
Iraq
Venezuela
North Korea
Cuba

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## skyshadow

NaCon said:


> Potential customers:
> Syria
> Iraq
> Venezuela
> North Korea
> Cuba


and alot of African countries , they have bought Iranian weapons before


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## TheImmortal

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317791866889404417


Stryker1982 said:


> For sure we won't be selling anything like Fateh-110's to countries like Armenia and Azerbaijan. Nor do I think we will be selling anything to either countries anyways as to avoid exacerbating the problem there. Azerbaijan would be a good sell as they'd love to have some Fateh-110's or 313's to counter Armenia's Iskanders with greater force but their anti-Iran stance would make such a sale impossible.



If Iran sells F-110 to Azerbaijan it will turn over and let Israeli engineers inspect it in order to tune their own air defense systems against the more capable brother, Haji Qassem missile.

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## SalarHaqq

Blue In Green said:


> SalarHaqq, I just wanted to say that all your posts have been nothing short of well thought-out, highly detailed, adequately elucidated comments on various topics with good insight and opinions on matters ranging from weapons doctrine, to geo-politics, to regional power struggles and so on. You really add a much needed sense of well educated opinion/analysis on subjects that often don't get enough expanded discourse on them especially when taking things into a more holistic perspective.
> 
> I would like to sincerely thank you for all you contributions here!!



Thanks for these words. Glad you found interest in my contributions. 

If I had only one advice to leave for younger users: read more books, starting with classical references (whether in physical or digital form) and spend less time on "social media". You will not regret it.

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## skyshadow

*aaaaaaand we have a new profile picture 





*

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## skyshadow

*why would Iran show this missile ( looks a lot like Hormuz ASBM ) in Air defense section with all the other air defense systems ?*


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## Iskander

skyshadow said:


> why would Iran show this missile ( looks a lot like Hormuz ASBM ) in Air defense section with all the other air defense systems ?


A possible target for Bavar 373 !!

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## skyshadow

Iskander said:


> A possible target for Bavar 373 !!


could be, or for jamming capability , this is Hormuz 2 so it has a radar seeker


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## Iskander

skyshadow said:


> could be, or for jamming capability , this is Hormuz 2 so it has a radar seeker


you mean for testing EW systems against Hormuz 2 seeker ? i don't think so

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## makranman

skyshadow said:


> *why would Iran show this missile ( looks a lot like Hormuz ASBM ) in Air defense section with all the other air defense systems ?*
> 
> View attachment 681236


there was this alam ol hoda missile system. somebody said it used similar missile to the fateh series.
though i really have no idea if it is possible or not...

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## skyshadow

makranman said:


> there was this alam ol hoda missile system. somebody said it used similar missile to the fateh series.
> though i really have no idea if it is possible or not...


yes its real . its IRGC super long range AD for 700 km range and it has anti satellite capability. its huge system more then 10 years in building.

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## VEVAK

skyshadow said:


> *why would Iran show this missile ( looks a lot like Hormuz ASBM ) in Air defense section with all the other air defense systems ?*
> 
> View attachment 681236



Could be an anti radar missile


skyshadow said:


> *why would Iran show this missile ( looks a lot like Hormuz ASBM ) in Air defense section with all the other air defense systems ?*
> 
> View attachment 681236



They could be testing IADS systems against quasi BM &/or against anti radiation projectiles or testing them as an offensive capability to take out enemy radars &/or Jammers so any of those scenarios would be relevant in Air Defense exercises. 



What I would like to see Iran do is to replace S-200 missiles with an Iranian Missile based off the Raad-500 booster & a thrust vectoring 2nd stage 

Hopefully intergrading the booster into various weapon systems will make mass production in vast numbers economical.

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## skyshadow

VEVAK said:


> Could be an anti radar missile
> 
> 
> They could be testing IADS systems against quasi BM &/or against anti radiation projectiles or testing them as an offensive capability to take out enemy radars &/or Jammers so any of those scenarios would be relevant in Air Defense exercises.
> 
> 
> 
> What I would like to see Iran do is to replace S-200 missiles with an Iranian Missile based off the Raad-500 booster & a thrust vectoring 2nd stage
> 
> Hopefully intergrading the booster into various weapon systems will make mass production in vast numbers economical.


i don't see S-200 leaving they just upgraded it, yes you are right as i saw Bavar-373 radars it very well could be a target for Bavar.


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## IranDefence

From recent documentary :

After attack on Ein AlAssad Americans put their transport planes in Qatar Al3adid air base with distance , and they turned on their long range radars to control trajectory of possible Iranian attack on their bases ... see that radar of Americans in Turkey !

HajiZade said Iran uses satellite imaging of friendly countries

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## skyshadow

*suspected Iranian missile shipment to Venezuela just landed *

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## Surenas

Fake airbase near Semnan for missile targetting. Multiple craters visible on the field:











Satellite view:





__





Iran map satellite // Asia


🌏 map of Iran, satellite view. Real picture of Iran regions, roads, cities, streets and buildings - with labels, ruler, search, locating, places sharing, weather conditions etc.




satellites.pro

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## Sineva

Surenas said:


> Fake airbase near Semnan for missile targetting. Multiple craters visible on the field:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Satellite view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran map satellite // Asia
> 
> 
> 🌏 map of Iran, satellite view. Real picture of Iran regions, roads, cities, streets and buildings - with labels, ruler, search, locating, places sharing, weather conditions etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> satellites.pro


What I`d love to know is whether this is just a generic airbase type target or whether in fact this is a target comprised of composite parts of *actual existing regional airbases*........


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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> What I`d love to know is whether this is just a generic airbase type target or whether in fact this is a target comprised of composite parts of *actual existing regional airbases*........


i think its the US base in Afghanistan


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1321551993614323713

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## Sineva

We finally have a picture of what the fully assembled NLOS missile intended for yemeni use looked like




We can see that there were 2 sets of forward fins,with the control surfaces having a rather unusual reverse taper somewhat similar to the nazeat rocket precision guidance retrofit.

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## EvilWesteners

Sineva said:


> We finally have a picture of what the fully assembled NLOS missile intended for yemeni use looked like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can see that there were 2 sets of forward fins,with the control surfaces having a rather unusual reverse taper somewhat similar to the nazeat rocket precision guidance retrofit.



Great job Sineva.

U.S. had a project like this in 1970s. They did share it with Iran, at that time. This was based on sidewinder missile, believe it or not. But U.S. never pursued it. It is obvious Iran has.

Good job.

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## WudangMaster

skyshadow said:


> yes its real . its IRGC super long range AD for 700 km range and it has anti satellite capability. its huge system more then 10 years in building.



It will more than likely incorporate the salman motor for the third stage/anti satellite portion of the missile. There have been hints of it over the past couple of years. Seems mostly suited for very high altitude targets, not sure if it can engage targets inside atmosphere.

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## skyshadow



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## raptor22

اون اپتیکا رو ادم میبینه بعد اینم میبینه ...

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317610187432361985

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## yavar



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## Blue In Green

I only have three words for you all....

BALLISTIC MISSILE WAGONS!!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323903917814550528
@PeeD @Philosopher @TheImmortal

One can only imagine what else Iran has in store when a conflict goes down!!!

Mashallah!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323906525337948165Man these Iranian MLRS systems are just getting ridiculous at this point lol

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## Hack-Hook

Blue In Green said:


> I only have three words for you all....
> 
> BALLISTIC MISSILE WAGONS!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323903917814550528
> @PeeD @Philosopher @TheImmortal
> 
> One can only imagine what else Iran has in store when a conflict goes down!!!
> 
> Mashallah!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323906525337948165Man these Iranian MLRS systems are just getting ridiculous at this point lol


Who recall command & Conquer General. GLA WMD was called Scud Storm
and this was my favorite way of fighting

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## Messerschmitt



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## Sineva

Blue In Green said:


> I only have three words for you all....
> 
> BALLISTIC MISSILE WAGONS!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323903917814550528
> @PeeD @Philosopher @TheImmortal
> 
> One can only imagine what else Iran has in store when a conflict goes down!!!
> 
> Mashallah!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323906525337948165Man these Iranian MLRS systems are just getting ridiculous at this point lol


🤩WOW!!!🤩
Its just like the very first modern missile base in history,the Wizernes V2 bunker at La Couple,tho that one never became operational.

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## Messerschmitt



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## yavar



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## PeeD

When I said some time ago here that Iran has developed a new launch method for its liquid fuel missiles: This is it.

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## Saleh99

PeeD said:


> When I said some time ago here that Iran has developed a new launch method for its liquid fuel missiles: This is it.


PeeD, it looks like EMAD is mass produced. Do you know if iran can upgrade all their Shahabs and Ghader BMs to Emad standards?

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## PeeD

Saleh99 said:


> PeeD, it looks like EMAD is mass produced. Do you know if iran can upgrade all their Shahabs and Ghader BMs to Emad standards?



Emad is already old by now. Ghadr can be converted, Shahab-3 not.

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## Saleh99

PeeD said:


> Emad is already old by now. Ghadr can be converted, Shahab-3 not.


So iran will keep those shahab-3 without upgrades? Because their CEP is huge...

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## Sina-1

Philosopher said:


> The name "UAE" is apparently on the missiles. This is a warning to these puppet states that attempts to allow the Zionists to use their soil against Iran in any way will mean the end of them.
> 
> View attachment 685465


No relation to the country. Only a reg code for the missile...

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## Philosopher

*IRGC unveils new smart ballistic missile launcher*

On Wednesday, the Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) unveiled the automatic and intelligent system of long-range ballistic missile launcher that is capable of launching consecutive missiles.

Speaking in this ceremony, Commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) Major General Hossein Salami noted, “Our missile power guarantees the retreat of the enemies due to the fact that such power will be frightening our enemies.”

Salami also considered such ballistic missiles as a strong pillar and deterrent power for the Islamic Republic of Iran with which the authority of the country is shown to the enemy.









IRGC unveils new smart ballistic missile launcher


TEHRAN, Nov. 04 (MNA) – IRGC Aerospace Force unveiled a new long-range ballistic missile launcher that is capable of launching consecutive rockets.




en.mehrnews.com

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323997925299703808

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## IranDefence

IMA MEDIA exclusive with HD quality

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## Philosopher

Beautiful.

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## Blue In Green

_When the floods gates of conflict open, all of Iran's mountains will rumble and roar like earthquakes hellbent on revenge....._

Realistically guys, we now have an idea on how Iran plans on firing 100s and 100s of BMs at once during its salvos. This is nothing short of impressive...

These hardened underground missile complexes are something to behold.

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## Sineva

Its amazing to think that not even 10 years ago iran revealed its first very simple missile silo.

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## NaCon

Sejil missile on the right

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## Sina-1

Sineva said:


> Its amazing to think that not even 10 years ago iran revealed its first very simple missile silo.


Keyword being “revealed”. The underground system revealed today may have been, and probably was, already in use when the first more basic silos were revealed. Makes you think what they have now.

also the engineering endeavor is absolutely breathtaking. These underground cities will last for thousands of years and will be remnants of today’s civilization.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1324080184920842249

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## jauk

But...but...what's the use of a 'missile barrage system' if you only have a few hundred missiles? Smirk

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## RΛIDEN

Blue In Green said:


> I only have three words for you all....
> 
> BALLISTIC MISSILE WAGONS!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323903917814550528
> @PeeD @Philosopher @TheImmortal
> 
> One can only imagine what else Iran has in store when a conflict goes down!!!
> 
> Mashallah!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323906525337948165Man these Iranian MLRS systems are just getting ridiculous at this point lol



OmG...looking at those BMs being erected one after the other gave me goosebumps! 

I remember the days I used to strategize as a teenager playing Command & Conquer Generals where the GLA allowed me to make a bunch of scud storms annihilating the enemy.

Iran is just one of a kind in the world when it comes to unconventional innovation and application of missiles hands down!

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## Sineva

Surenas said:


> Fake airbase near Semnan for missile targetting. Multiple craters visible on the field:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Satellite view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran map satellite // Asia
> 
> 
> 🌏 map of Iran, satellite view. Real picture of Iran regions, roads, cities, streets and buildings - with labels, ruler, search, locating, places sharing, weather conditions etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> satellites.pro




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1321316867093360640Evidently this target dates back to 2015 and the first evidence of it being used dates back to a couple of months before the emad was unveiled in that same year.....

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## RΛIDEN

Blue In Green said:


> _When the floods gates of conflict open, all of Iran's mountains will rumble and roar like earthquakes hellbent on revenge....._
> 
> Realistically guys, we now have an idea on how Iran plans on firing 100s and 100s of BMs at once during its salvos. This is nothing short of impressive...
> 
> These hardened underground missile complexes are something to behold.



Bro, imagine these 100s and 100s of BMs being complemented by 100s of cruise missiles...the recipient will have a panic attack and die due to fear-induced stroke

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## raptor22

Philosopher said:


> Beautiful.
> 
> View attachment 685487


Isn't dangerous? though we just see the loading part not launcher side .. but liquid missile firing next each other in a closed chamber might be risky ... but nice idea overall ...


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## WudangMaster

raptor22 said:


> Isn't dangerous? though we just see the loading part not launcher side .. but liquid missile firing next each other in a closed chamber might be risky ... but nice idea overall ...



They might spread apart further down the giant magazine and with the first one being fired likely being sealed behind a blast door inside of a silo before a launch; then I would imagine the rail follows a circuit eventually bringing it full circle.

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## raptor22

WudangMaster said:


> They might spread apart further down the giant magazine and with the first one being fired likely being sealed behind a blast door inside of a silo before a launch; then I would imagine the rail follows a circuit eventually bringing it full circle.


Maybe there are several separate silos which are fed by this giant magazine ..... for sure they thought it through ...

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## WudangMaster

raptor22 said:


> Maybe there are several separate silos which are fed by this giant magazine ..... for sure they thought it through ...


Absolutely, also it might be possible that they might just turn a sharp corner off into a silo so that so the need for blast doors would be minimized, but I think they probably have some sort of barrier or blast door closing the silos during launch. Even with this magazine setup , the missiles are still moving slowly and carefully given their size and weight. Nonetheless, this is as close to a ballistic missile machine gun as one can get and fire the most rounds in the shortest amount of time. 
One concern I have is how to handle earthquakes, especially if a really nasty one to hit during a missile loading or firing.

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## Messerschmitt




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## WudangMaster

I just remembered the missile farms; so both types of fuel missiles have the ability to be launched enmasse along with whatever is carried on trucks and maritime platforms. 
Next could be either a maritime or airborne platform for launching missiles.

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## RΛIDEN

WudangMaster said:


> I just remembered the missile farms; so both types of fuel missiles have the ability to be launched enmasse along with whatever is carried on trucks and maritime platforms.
> Next could be either a maritime or airborne platform for launching missiles.



Do you think the giant magazine launch system can be incorporated in Persian Gulf class vessels and other VLCC naval units in development? Perhaps, to start with, they can use tactical BMs.

I can't imagine what an airborne platform of such may look like. 

Maybe @SOHEIL and @sahureka2 can provide some insight?

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## WudangMaster

RΛIDEN said:


> Do you think the giant magazine launch system can be incorporated in Persian Gulf class vessels and other VLCC naval units in development? Perhaps, to start with, they can use tactical BMs.
> 
> I can't imagine what an airborne platform of such may look like.
> 
> Maybe @SOHEIL and @sahureka2 can provide some insight?


With a surface vessel or sub, I would imagine they would likely be solid fueled and sealed in containers, The need for this type of magazine system is for liquid fueled weapons and their various needs and much higher maintenance. Ship mounted fateh/zulfiqars would probably be like the any air defense missile system or cruise missile, all sealed in vls containers in the ships hull. The question for me would be if the tactical ballistics can be programed from the bridge, or already have coordinates pre programmed, before install; depends on how much local or centralised control the command structure would deem proper for the missiles. 
Also, it would certainly be IRGC ship at first, with some cross coordination be the naval and aerospace forces. The more I think about it, I think they might rather concentrate on cruise missile for ships and subs, but never rule out options for carrying heavier weapons. 
Also. a larger vessel could also serve as a space launch platform too.
Another point to add is that the aerospace forces might not want to divide control of the missiles with the naval branch or any other branch for that matter, while sam systems and radars and drones are shared by them, the missiles are a different matter and I can understand on psychological front. Also, said missiles become a bit vulnerable while out at sea so older models would probably be utilised first by the naval branch if should ever happen.

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## RΛIDEN

WudangMaster said:


> With a surface vessel or sub, I would imagine they would likely be solid fueled and sealed in containers, The need for this type of magazine system is for liquid fueled weapons and their various needs and much higher maintenance. Ship mounted fateh/zulfiqars would probably be like the any air defense missile system or cruise missile, all sealed in vls containers in the ships hull. The question for me would be if the tactical ballistics can be programed from the bridge, or already have coordinates pre programmed, before install; depends on how much local or centralised control the command structure would deem proper for the missiles.
> Also, it would certainly be IRGC ship at first, with some cross coordination be the naval and aerospace forces. The more I think about it, I think they might rather concentrate on cruise missile for ships and subs, but never rule out options for carrying heavier weapons.
> Also. a larger vessel could also serve as a space launch platform too.
> Another point to add is that the aerospace forces might not want to divide control of the missiles with the naval branch or any other branch for that matter, while sam systems and radars and drones are shared by them, the missiles are a different matter and I can understand on psychological front. Also, said missiles become a bit vulnerable while out at sea so older models would probably be utilised first by the naval branch if should ever happen.




Well said WudangMaster. I was thinking more along the lines of miniaturisation of this giant magazine system for incorporating them on super vessels to increase firepower. As per my understanding, conventional VLS/container-based weapons are mostly one-off; that is once launched, those containers are empty until the vessel are re-supplied/replenished. It would be nice to have this magazine system programmed to help reload those VLS containers, especially with what you mentioned about the tactical BMs being preprogrammed. It should be possible to do so with advanced satellite navigation on completely autonomous vessels in the future. 

Furthermore, you're absolutely correct about IRGC vessels being the first recipient of such high calibre weapons and the fact that they may not want to share control of any BMs to any branch of the regular armed forces. I was under the impression that perhaps in the near future when IRGC aerospace force have an increased supply on various TBMs, they can share some of those with the regular navy to increase deterrence and anti-access area deniability.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1324583943484641281

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## skyshadow



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## RΛIDEN

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 686443




Are we about to witness the unveiling of an HGV soon??

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## skyshadow

RΛIDEN said:


> Are we about to witness the unveiling of an HGV soon??


someday for sure

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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 686443


Man, the serial numbers on this one are like call number for Hot Line that you can call after 23 hours.

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## skyshadow

scimitar19 said:


> Man, the serial numbers on this one are like call number for Hot Line that you can call after 23 hours.


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## Raghfarm007

Looks photoshoped to me

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## Philosopher

It is a photoshopped picture, they put the glider of the Chinese DF-17 on Iranian Soleimani missile to show what an Iranian HGV system may look like.

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## Arminkh

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1324583943484641281


What an interesting design. Reminds me of Oto Melara naval gun mechanism but at a much larger scale! They probably can fire an average a missile every 30 seconds with it.

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## skyshadow

Raghfarm007 said:


> Looks photoshoped to me


it is


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## yavar

Iran IRIB-3 Aerospace development Program " strike accurately" Part 1of 7

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325462311381950465

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## VEVAK

oops!

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## Blue In Green

VEVAK said:


> View attachment 687018
> 
> 
> oops!



What's the significance of this photo?


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## VEVAK

No worries, It's just a shahab-3 scud variant and those ppl are either midgets or have been Photoshopped 
😉

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325763780807159814

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## VEVAK

Blue In Green said:


> What's the significance of this photo?



Engine configuration 
The Diameter of the Missile

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## zartosht

this is such a unique, and genius system that it has left me almost speechless. Extremely proud of our experts and engineers. 

when the machine gun was invented originally. It completely killed the cavalry as a military unit. Thousands of years of war fighting tactics changed overnight.

I wonder if this "machine gun missile" system is what kills the traditional large airbase+ expensive airforce thats played a dominant role in war tactics from ww2 onwards

could any saudi airbase survive 1 hour under an all out Iranian assault?? i doubt it... if they take off to escape, would they survive the multi-layered Iranian air defense? How do you counter this?

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## makranman

VEVAK said:


> Engine configuration
> The Diameter of the Missile


could it be intentional? i mean they made the video themselves.


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## VEVAK

Blue In Green said:


> What's the significance of this photo?


 
This is 6 years ago and looks like the same missile but the engine configuration was never shown...








makranman said:


> could it be intentional? i mean they made the video themselves.



I don't know if it was intentional or not but if they didn't edit it out it's because they are confident that the Americans already have that intel....

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## Philosopher



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## skyshadow



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## WudangMaster

Sina-1 said:


> No relation to the country. Only a reg code for the missile...
> View attachment 685467


This misunderstanding seems to persist, Omid Dana is assuming the same thing with uae stamped on the missile body. There are so many various missiles with various alpha-numeric combinations that only make sense to the manufacturer and end receiver. Thing is, whenever they launch, they usually do actually write something with marker but not on missiles sitting in inventory that might not ever see action outside of war games (hopefully).

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## skyshadow



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## WudangMaster

From the looks of it, it seems the carousel travels with 5 at a a time and the individual missiles don't separate as they enter the launch area. At first I though the return didn't make as much sense as a full circle, but that would require 2 blast doors rather than one set so it is cheaper to have the cart return along part of the same path out of the launch area as depicted here. The opening also feels it might be too wide to accommodate the 5 missile carousel making it more vulnerable to strikes, unless the slope is much sharper, also the silo opening might be more narrow, allowing for one missile launch at a time and the carousel moves one step over after every launch, like the barrel of a revolver pistol. On the other hand, having the carousel park and let the missile launch one at a time then move out might be more cost effective and the concern of so big an opening might not be as serious as I imagine it to be, especially if the exit is sharply angled on a mountain slope.


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## Stryker1982

zartosht said:


> this is such a unique, and genius system that it has left me almost speechless. Extremely proud of our experts and engineers.
> 
> when the machine gun was invented originally. It completely killed the cavalry as a military unit. Thousands of years of war fighting tactics changed overnight.
> 
> I wonder if this "machine gun missile" system is what kills the traditional large airbase+ expensive airforce thats played a dominant role in war tactics from ww2 onwards
> 
> could any saudi airbase survive 1 hour under an all out Iranian assault?? i doubt it... if they take off to escape, would they survive the multi-layered Iranian air defense? How do you counter this?



You're talking more on a strategic level where I'd say precision ballistic missiles would change the course of conventional warfare. No where is safe, any sort of military infrastructure on the ground cannot be reliably protected anymore, all must go underground. Just 10 years prior, you can guard all your infrastructure with air defense and airforce equipment, but low cost Raad-500's, Emad missiles etc... are making traditional infrastructure unsafe. I'm sure the Americans know a thing or two about vulnerable bases.

I'm willing to bet low-cost, low flying drone swarms, with the appropriate battle management software will change the type of warfare that can be fought overnight.

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> You're talking more on a strategic level where I'd say precision ballistic missiles would change the course of conventional warfare. No where is safe, any sort of military infrastructure on the ground cannot be reliably protected anymore, all must go underground. Just 10 years prior, you can guard all your infrastructure with air defense and airforce equipment, but low cost Raad-500's, Emad missiles etc... are making traditional infrastructure unsafe. I'm sure the Americans know a thing or two about vulnerable bases.
> 
> I'm willing to bet low-cost, low flying drone swarms, with the appropriate battle management software will change the type of warfare that can be fought overnight.


Will Iran move all their military into the mountains and abandoned their exposed bases after the introduction of future IRBMs on U.S. side?


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## yavar

__





آپارات - سرویس اشتراک ویدیو







www.aparat.com

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## skyshadow

*don't you believe know ?*

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## skyshadow



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326537463406362629

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326572139894501378

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## yavar



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## Philosopher

Sejill missile:






Emad missile:

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## aryobarzan

Philosopher said:


> Sejill missile:
> 
> View attachment 687615
> 
> 
> Emad missile:
> 
> 
> View attachment 687617
> 
> View attachment 687618


They look beautifully engineered...now if they can just replace those "conventional" warheads with "nuclear" warheads then we will never hear a peep from anybody...every one would want to become iran's friend ...

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## Blue In Green

@PeeD @Philosopher 

What's your guys take on this? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326728932624904193

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## Oldman1

Blue In Green said:


> @PeeD @Philosopher
> 
> What's your guys take on this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326728932624904193


What's he saying?

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## Sineva

Oldman1 said:


> What's he saying?


Yes,a translation would be nice.
Could someone please give us non farsi speakers a brief synopsis?

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## Sina-1

Sineva said:


> Yes,a translation would be nice.
> Could someone please give us non farsi speakers a brief synopsis?


The most interesting message is that he is acknowledging that Iran currently posses ICBM!

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## Oldman1

Sina-1 said:


> The most interesting message is that he is acknowledging that Iran currently posses ICBM!


Oh wow that could change everything!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326802936601702401

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## Philosopher

Blue In Green said:


> @PeeD @Philosopher
> 
> What's your guys take on this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326728932624904193



Like we talked about bro, Iran has not just ICBM, but certainly even nukes and it's just a matter of when they decide to openly show these capabilities.

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## Mr Iran Eye

Iran's ballistic power at a glance

When the founder and designer of Iran's ballistic power Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam was killed on November 12, 2011 in the explosion of the Bid Kaneh barracks, near Tehran, everyone feared a big pause in the development of the ballistics industry but today, nine years later, the Iranian armed forces are equipped with new sophisticated weapons, some of which were designed during the lifetime of the Iranian general.

In 2014, the Hormuz-1 and Hormuz-2 ballistic missiles were unveiled at an Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Aerospace Force exhibition.
Operating by solid propulsion, the warheads of these two missiles can be fitted with search radar systems capable of attacking enemy radar sites and aircraft carriers up to a range of 300 kilometers.

In 2015, the Emad ballistic missile, with a range of 1,700 kilometers and the Fateh-313 ballistic missile, with a range of 500 kilometers, were unveiled to the general public.
The Emad runs on liquid fuel and its head has small wings that help it hit its target with greater precision.

The Fateh-313 is the first Iranian missile that operates on composite propellant. This technology allows the missile to have better accuracy as it reduces the tremors caused by engine operation.
The Fateh-313 demonstrated great performance and precision in the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) missile attack on the US military base Ain al-Assad in Iraq.


In 2017, the Zolfaghar missile first appeared on screens during a strike against several ISIS terrorist positions in Syria's Deir ez-Zor province. With a range of 700 kilometers, the Zolfaghar, too, operates on composite propellant.

On September 22, 2017, the Khorramchahr ballistic missile was first seen during an armed forces parade held on the occasion of Sacred Defense Week. With a range of 2,000 kilometers, the Khorramchahr is able to carry a head of 1,800 kilograms. It is the most powerful liquid-fueled missile and has the capacity to carry multiple warheads at once.

On August 13, 2018, the Fateh Mobin missile was unveiled during a parade marking National Defense Industry Day.

The Fateh Mobin is a ballistic missile with a range of 700 kilometers. It is a ground-to-ground missile and at the same time a solid-propelled anti-ship missile. During the same year, two other Iranian missiles were unveiled: a new version of Khorramchahr and the Dezful missile.


The new version of Khorramchahr featured a warhead similar to Emad's allowing him to become unmanned.
The Dezfoul missile, with a range of 1,000 kilometers, is of the Fateh family. Running on solid fuel, the Dezfoul was designed and produced by the IRGC Aerospace Force.

On February 9, 2020, the IRGC Aerospace Force unveiled the Raad-500 missile and the Salman space engine.

The Raad-500 missile is an Iranian ballistic missile that is equipped with a progressive composite motor nicknamed Zohair. The Raad-500 is a missile 50% lighter than the Fateh-110 whose body was made of metal; while the range of this new Iranian ballistic missile is over 200 kilometers and its final range is 500 kilometers.

First unveiled in February 2020, the Salman space engine uses an array of sophisticated technologies, including solid propellant, a movable nozzle for flight control and a lightweight carbon fiber casing. Despite its small dimensions, the Salman solid propellant engine appears to perform well in the construction of space launchers. But in many ways, it serves as a demonstrator for technologies crucial to the development of modern long-range missiles, including ICBMs (Intercontinental Missiles). The use of this technology marks a significant development in Iran's regular space program.

The manufacture of the space engine called Salman by the IRGC is an important step before the design of an anti-satellite missile.

The Salman space engine can change direction thanks to the lightweight composite materials used in its body. As a result, this solid rocket propulsion technology allows the craft to travel well beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
Using movable pipe propulsion technology, defensive missiles can be built to engage enemy targets outside of Earth's atmosphere.


On April 22, 2020, Iran launched its first military satellite. The Nour satellite was successfully launched from the Qassed tri-stage launcher which was successfully placed into orbit. The Nour satellite currently orbits the Earth at 425 km. It was a great achievement and a new turning point in the Iranian aerospace industry.
The Nour satellite was responsible for monitoring Iranian oil tankers en route to Venezuela.
The Qassed tri-stage launcher uses a liquid propellant engine on the first stage and a solid rocket Salman engine on the second stage.

But the IRGC's ballistic surprises did not end there.

In the summer of 2020, the IRGC unveiled its underground missile fields during Exercise Grand Prophète-14.
Everywhere in these missile fields, launch pads are concealed under the ground, from where missiles are fired at their targets. During the same exercise, the IRGC showed its box-shaped launchers.

On August 20, 2020, the unveiling of yet another tactical ballistic missile placed Iran's name at the top of the list of countries with long-range tactical ballistic missiles.

The Hajj Qassem ballistic missile, with a range of 1,800 kilometers, is a new member of the Fateh-class missile family. It is a solid-propellant missile with a guided head. Of all the tactical ballistic missiles, Hajj Qassem has the longest range in the world.

Indeed, it is a device which, in view of the various explosive warheads that it can transport, is capable of destroying concrete fortifications or of penetrating, like anti-bunker armaments, targets placed in depth. The Hadj Qassem missile is an optimized version of Zolfaghar.

On the same day, the smallest member of the Fateh Family, which is called the Fath missile, was also unveiled. Not much information has been released about the abilities of the Fath.

In September 2020, the 700-kilometer Zolfaghar Bassir ballistic missile was unveiled during the inauguration ceremony of the National Aerospace Park.

Zolfaghar Bassir is indeed the Zolfaghar missile equipped with an optical finder which allows it to target moving targets including enemy ships.


At the beginning of November 2020, the IRGC revealed its ballistic submachine gun which allows the consecutive fire of several ballistic missiles.

A ballistic submachine gun is made up of several ramps that are linked to each other and installed on a rail. It is used in the underground ballistic cities of the IRGC. Only Emad missiles, with a range of 1,700 kilometers, have always been installed on these ballistic submachine guns. This rail system significantly shortens the time required to prepare ballistic missiles, especially those with liquid fuel, to fire. This new equipment is not only a carrier but also a mobile launch pad. This means that once they reach the hole in the underground ballistic cities, the missiles do not need to be transferred to the ramps and are already ready to be fired.

Nine years after the martyred death of the founder of Iranian ballistic power, Iran continues on the development path and new achievements are unveiled each year to disillusion Iran's enemies.

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## Arminkh

Philosopher said:


> Like we talked about bro, Iran has not just ICBM, but certainly even nukes and it's just a matter of when they decide to openly show these capabilities.


I think timing of the announcement is dead on. Today I was reading an article in RT claiming Trump may use this last two months to start a war with Iran to prevent Biden from scaling back the sanctions. Not anymore!

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## Blue In Green

Arminkh said:


> I think timing of the announcement is dead on. Today I was reading an article in RT claiming Trump may use this last two months to start a war with Iran to prevent Biden from scaling back the sanctions. Not anymore!



It's insane to think just how much Iran has gotten to Trump. Personally speaking, I've never seen a president lose his marbles to this degree and act so irrationally when it comes to dealing with a nation, the guy is clearly out of his element when dealing with Iran and boy does it show. 

To see him plunge the U.S. into an ill-fated conflict with Iran at the tail-end of his presidency (presumably). He would have done it out of spite and hatred of Iranians more so than anything else. Clearly he has a hatred for Iran given just how effective Iran has been in skirting the sanctions whilst still pushing its regional objectives to an arguably favorable position overall. 

Really worrying what the next couple months has in store for Iran and the region in general...God I hope Iran is ready and willing to what is necessary to defend itself against such reckless Zionist hatred....

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## RΛIDEN

Sina-1 said:


> The most interesting message is that he is acknowledging that Iran currently posses ICBM!




For real??

If this is true, then I believe IRGC became a lot BOLDER with this acknowledgement and is clearly sending a message to the aggressors.

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## Sina-1

RΛIDEN said:


> For real??
> 
> If this is true, then I believe IRGC became a lot BOLDER with this acknowledgement and is clearly sending a message to the aggressors.


Yeah, and it’s not a big surprise really. It’s kind of like everyone know Israel has tons of nuclear weapons even though they don’t directly admit it. Still everyone knows. It was the same thing with Iran’s ICBM. Everyone know the capability is there and it is proven without shadow of a doubt, but now an official openly admit it.

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## jauk

For what it's worth, and not to derail this thread, defense secretary Mark Esper was unceremoniously fired a few days ago. There is relatively little coverage in US media about this significant event. My irrational conspiratorial side wonders. Regardless, there is no doubt a relationship between the last few weeks of the US presidency and Iran's recent fluffing of it's colors. Feel free to choose your own cause vs effect.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327273011171516417

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## 925boy

Blue In Green said:


> It's insane to think just how much Iran has gotten to Trump. Personally speaking, I've never seen a president lose his marbles to this degree and act so irrationally when it comes to dealing with a nation, the guy is clearly out of his element when dealing with Iran and boy does it show.
> 
> To see him plunge the U.S. into an ill-fated conflict with Iran at the tail-end of his presidency (presumably). He would have done it out of spite and hatred of Iranians more so than anything else. Clearly he has a hatred for Iran given just how effective Iran has been in skirting the sanctions whilst still pushing its regional objectives to an arguably favorable position overall.
> 
> Really worrying what the next couple months has in store for Iran and the region in general...God I hope Iran is ready and willing to what is necessary to defend itself against such reckless Zionist hatred....




Trump has a hatred for anything, country or person who he needs something from, that says NO to him. Typical destructive bastard narcissist

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## skyshadow



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## Arminkh

Blue In Green said:


> It's insane to think just how much Iran has gotten to Trump. Personally speaking, I've never seen a president lose his marbles to this degree and act so irrationally when it comes to dealing with a nation, the guy is clearly out of his element when dealing with Iran and boy does it show.
> 
> To see him plunge the U.S. into an ill-fated conflict with Iran at the tail-end of his presidency (presumably). He would have done it out of spite and hatred of Iranians more so than anything else. Clearly he has a hatred for Iran given just how effective Iran has been in skirting the sanctions whilst still pushing its regional objectives to an arguably favorable position overall.
> 
> Really worrying what the next couple months has in store for Iran and the region in general...God I hope Iran is ready and willing to what is necessary to defend itself against such reckless Zionist hatred....


Nit sure habit will go. But read this:









Trump’s Pentagon shuffle suggests either no more wars… or just one with Iran


As the first US president in 40 years who hasn’t started a new war, Trump is using what are likely to be his final weeks in office to take the Pentagon in a different direction by loading it up with loyalist appointees.




www.rt.com

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## sha ah

I doubt it. During his entire term, Trump was taking direct orders from the Zionists, specifically Netanyahu, regarding Iran.

Netanyahu (real name Mileikowski) was one of the first world leaders, US allies, to formally congratulate Joe Biden on his election victory, recognizing Biden as the president elect.

Now Trump feels deeply betrayed by Israel, therefore I doubt if he will blindly follow the Zionists orders anymore.

Another thing to consider is that Trump is reportedly already considering running again in 2024. In that case, starting a reckless war with Iran would be the last thing that Trump needs on his resume, which has already been badly tarnished by his handling of the Covid-19 pandemic in the United States.

Anything is possible but I honestly doubt it.



Arminkh said:


> I think timing of the announcement is dead on. Today I was reading an article in RT claiming Trump may use this last two months to start a war with Iran to prevent Biden from scaling back the sanctions. Not anymore!

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## sha ah

Many would disagree but personally I'm certain that Iran does possess ICBMs and probably nuclear warheads as well.

The Khorramshahr missile, if modified with a smaller warhead, can reach London. That's basically all of Europe.

It's a known fact that the Khorramshahr missile is an Iranian made variant of the North Korean Hwasong-10 IRBM (also known as BM-25 or Musudan).

The North Korean version has a warhead weighing 650-1250 KG and a range of 3000-4000 KM. The Iranian variant, for political reasons of course, is said to have a range of 2000 km with an 1800 KG warhead.

Basically after that, anything less than an ICBM would be pointless for Iran, since the next target on Iran's radar would be Washington DC, which is approx 10,000 KM away from Iran's borders.

Making the announcement now was the right move at the exact right time. This will make any US administration think twice about waging a war against Iran. It will also boost Iran's prestige from a military standpoint. 

Iran is slowly but surely inching closer to revealing a nuclear capable ICBM. This will only reinforce the narrative that economic / political pressure, just like with North Korea, will only push Iran closer to becoming a nuclear armed nation.

That will put pressure on the Biden administration not to play silly games or make any ridiculous demands, but rather to simply abide by the terms of the nuclear deal.

Before the US left the nuclear deal, it was said that various contracts with Iran were supporting a minimum of 15,000 well paying American jobs.

With Covid-19 causing an economic downturn, the US and EU would welcome any economic boost, even on a small scale.

Boeing is on life support and a large order from Iran would be a God sent for them. The same thing can be said about European companies like Airbus or Renault / Peugeot who would love to have access to Iran's markets.



QUOTE="Philosopher, post: 12800507, member: 198086"]
Like we talked about bro, Iran has not just ICBM, but certainly even nukes and it's just a matter of when they decide to openly show these capabilities.
[/QUOTE]

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327575462093185024
Ghadr (first stage) + Salman (second stage)
-> ~5.200 km range with a 400 kg warhead​Sejjil (first & second stage) + Salman (third stage)
-> ~7.200 km range with a 400 kg warhead​Khorramshahr (first stage) + Salman (second stage)
-> ~ 10.100 km range with a 400 kg warhead​

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## VEVAK

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327575462093185024
> Ghadr (first stage) + Salman (second stage)
> -> ~5.200 km range with a 400 kg warhead​Sejjil (first & second stage) + Salman (third stage)
> -> ~7.200 km range with a 400 kg warhead​Khorramshahr (first stage) + Salman (second stage)
> -> ~ 10.100 km range with a 400 kg warhead​



At these ranges If you wanna hit any type of targets with any type of accuracy less than even 1000 meter cep you'll need PBV to control reentry or else you'll end up lobbing missiles with warheads that either burn up on reentry or end up +20km off target which has no value...

So the Qadr is out...

As for the Sajil Iran's come a long way in composites since we initially tested the Sajil 
Sajil would probably have to be a modified version + modified composite version of the 2nd stage or a modified version of the Haj Qassem missile + Salmon + pbv and RV. I would say the cost benefit analysis overall wouldn't make much sense due to size of payload

Among active boosters Khoramshahr is the most promising among current known boosters then the Simorgh. 

However it's not yet fully known what happened to the Qaeem project which was the last Solid fuel booster Tehrani Moghadam was working on which probably would have been the main go to for a viable Iranian ICBM 





__





طهرانی مقدم در زمان شهادت مشغول کدام پروژه مهم بود؟/ جزئیات جدید از برنامه فضایی سپاه- اخبار نظامی | دفاعی | امنیتی - اخبار سیاسی تسنیم | Tasnim


پدر موشکی ایران در آخرین پروژه خود در حال آماده‌سازی یک ماهواره‌بر چهارمرحله‌ای سوخت جامد به‌نام قائم بود که قطر و طول مرحله اول آن به‌ترتیب 3.5 و 20 متر عنوان شده است.




www.tasnimnews.com


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## Philosopher

Sharing this only because it is part of OSINT and already reported on.

In the video below, you can see the censorship when the commander mentions the ICBM part, they cover it with a sneeze. They wanted to send a direct message to the enemy, and they did. 






This should be an eye opening for those of you that are worried about Iran swearing off nuclear weapons. Iran's stance on nuclear weapons, like it's 2000km capped missile range is just smoke and mirrors. Iran's long term goals will involve the procurement of any and all necessary instruments pertaining to power. And like I said before, it will be up to Iran when we civilians will witness those assets. Everything at the right time.

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## Stryker1982

Philosopher said:


> Sharing this only because it is part of OSINT and already reported on.
> 
> In the video below, you can see the censorship when the commander mentions the ICBM part, they cover it with a sneeze. They wanted to send a direct message to the enemy, and they did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This should be an eye opening for those of you that are worried about Iran swearing off nuclear weapons. Iran's stance on nuclear weapons, like it's 2000km capped missile range is just smoke and mirrors. Iran's long term goals will involve the procurement of any and all necessary instruments pertaining to power. And like I said before, it will be up to Iran when we civilians will witness those assets. Everything at the right time.



Being in full range of the UK should be our main goal. The days where they can attack any other nation without consequence to their homeland will be over. No more watching the war on TV, or through movies, they will have their war on their soil, on their doorstep.

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## yavar

Philosopher said:


> Sharing this only because it is part of OSINT and already reported on.
> 
> In the video below, you can see the censorship when the commander mentions the ICBM part, they cover it with a sneeze. They wanted to send a direct message to the enemy, and they did.


this is not his full statment

once the fully video available people will understand that he said...................

i will post video once i have all

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> this is not his full statment
> 
> once the fully video available people will understand that he said...................
> 
> i will post video once i have all


what was the statement?


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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> what was the statement?


we have all kind of short range and medium and continental range ballistic missile as reported

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## skyshadow

*is it just me or these 2 look exactly the same ???*

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## Stryker1982

Anyone notice the U.S conducting ICBM Interception tests just a mere week after that shadowy ICBM progress was announced in Iran???

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## sha ah

The Khorramshahr missile can already reach the UK though. It just needs slight modifications, a smaller warhead and it can reach London. The next logical step is reaching Washington DC and the eastern US. After that maybe the entire world ?



Stryker1982 said:


> Being in full range of the UK should be our main goal. The days where they can attack any other nation without consequence to their homeland will be over. No more watching the war on TV, or through movies, they will have their war on their soil, on their doorstep.

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## TheImmortal

Iran censors IRGC official mentioning Iran has “Intercontinental” missiles.

Notice his mouth moves, no sound.

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## 925boy

TheImmortal said:


> Iran censors IRGC official mentioning Iran has “Intercontinental” missiles.
> 
> Notice his mouth moves, no sound.


Translation - Iran has an ICBM......which is another Trump admin failure- getting US kicked out of IRaq for dumb soleimani assasination, then allowing Iran to have ICBM capability under his dumb *** watch, cuz he pulled out of JCPOA. send that rat to jail already..im tired of his dumb mistakes costing US everything.

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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330856897809887233

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## IranDefence

Another kill mark for this mighty Persian missile by Yemeni brothers against Saudi Aramco and another failure for American expensive but useless air defense in Saudi

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330902032597848064

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330897921475301378—————————-https://mobile.twitter.com/HosseinDalirian/status/1330844866461491201

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## RΛIDEN

Shawnee said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330902032597848064
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330897921475301378—————————-https://mobile.twitter.com/HosseinDalirian/status/1330844866461491201



What is he saying here, brother Shawnee?


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## Shawnee

RΛIDEN said:


> What is he saying here, brother Shawnee?



The idea of making a reusable missile can have significant impacts. We only have reusable space shuttles so far but a reusable military missile can be a game changer.
...

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## Stryker1982

Shawnee said:


> The idea of making a reusable missile can have significant impacts. We only have reusable space shuttles so far but a reusable military missile can be a game changer.
> ...



SpaceX has something like that .

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## Blue In Green

Shawnee said:


> The idea of making a reusable missile can have significant impacts. We only have reusable space shuttles so far but a reusable military missile can be a game changer.
> ...



Like the Falcon 9?

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## WudangMaster

I think the first stage would always fall inside the country so I would imagine that can be made recoverable but I don't know about 2nd or 3rd stages.


Blue In Green said:


> Like the Falcon 9?


Probably not as sophisticated as that but maybe a series of parachutes softens the landing.


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## Shawnee

Blue In Green said:


> Like the Falcon 9?



Yes. Vertical take off and landing of Space X as one example.

It is an old idea that dates back to 1960s.









Space Shuttle - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org













Space Transportation System - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Now what if we have a vertical take off and landing military missile (military VTVL).

The problem of missile compared to a fighter is the cost but it is more effective.
The space shuttles of 1980s could not decrease the cost.

Musk idea is that if one can figure out how to reuse rockets like airplanes then the cost of access to space will be reduced by as much as a factor of a hundred. 
...

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## IranDefence

I don't know if they can hit royal palace in a pinpoint way 😁

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## Hack-Hook

IranDefence said:


> I don't know if they can hit royal palace in a pinpoint way 😁


the scene didn't end well for jack

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331185816224362504

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331185821932793862

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## skyshadow

*so Quds-2 cruise missile has a range of more then 1000 kms and they want to test it on Israel this is getting better and better every day.

next target is port of Eilat some 1700 - 2000 kms away





*

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## WudangMaster

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331185816224362504
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1331185821932793862


Can you post the images here?

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## Shawnee

The question about the missile attack on KSA is:
“how did they know that there is a clandestine meeting?”

*The co-occurrence of the precision attack in Jeddah with only one missile and the clandestine meeting of Netanyahu and MBS is not just sheer luck.*

I think that Iran detected the flight from Israel to KSA using its *OTH radars*. Since the flight was observed heavily guarded with surrounding fighters, the conclusion was that it is a *high ranking visitor from Israel.

The single missile was undetected until its strike. No sign of AD response seen. Jeddah is heavily fortified. Just like Riadh.*

You can see how easily they could Kill Bibi and MBS. Bibi will not forget this humiliation and will try to strike back in Syria.

Waiting to hear your thoughts.
...


Shawnee said:


> The question about the missile attack on KSA is:
> “how did they know that there is a clandestine meeting?”
> 
> *The co-occurrence of the precision attack in Jeddah with only one missile and the clandestine meeting of Netanyahu and MBS is not just sheer luck.*
> 
> I think that Iran detected the flight from Israel to KSA using its *OTH radars*. Since the flight was observed heavily guarded with surrounding fighters, the conclusion was that it is a *high ranking visitor from Israel.
> 
> The single missile was undetected until its strike. No sign of AD response seen. Jeddah is heavily fortified. Just like Riadh.*
> 
> You can see how easily they could Kill Bibi and MBS. Bibi will not forget this humiliation and will try to strike back in Syria.
> 
> Waiting to hear your thoughts.
> .


...
Update:
When I wrote this, I did not expect Netanyahu to make an emotional knee jerk strike in Syria this fast just minutes after my comment. It looks like it was hard on Bibi.

I will make a guess about casualties. This is my guess:
“SOHR will say 14 were killed from the Iranians.”
..

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## Messerschmitt

I suppose, in the future, the Raad-500 will develop into something like a Raad-1000, Raad-1500 and potentially even a Raad-2000 with respective anti-ship variants. Once Iran fields its own hypersonic glide vehicles, these missiles and newer generations, if equipped with them, will pose an even bigger threat to its opponents' critical military and economic infrastructure in the region and thus increase Iran's deterrence immensely.
Imagine Khorramshahr MRBMs carrying HGVs on the IRGC's newly unveiled nuclear-strike-hardened ballistic missile barrage launch and rail system, or composite body Shahid Haj Qasem missiles, some of which are terminally guided anti-ship versions, equipped with HGVs, buried underground in Iran's missile farms and ready to be launched at any given time over a distance of more than 2000 km.
In order to be able to detect and track moving naval vessels and reliably guide a MaRV/HGV to hit them over such distances, Iran has to invest heavily in its satellite capabilities and is evidently doing so already.

By the way, @PeeD, what do you think of 'Thicc Raad' missile versions with larger diameters that are able to carry heavier warheads in the future? Let's say, a chubbier Raad-500 that can carry a heavier, more destructive warhead over the same distance as the usual 'skinny' Raad-500. I definitely need one in my garden. 🤡

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## PeeD

Messerschmitt said:


> I suppose, in the future, the Raad-500 will develop into something like a Raad-1000, Raad-1500 and potentially even a Raad-2000 with respective anti-ship variants. Once Iran fields its own hypersonic glide vehicles, these missiles and newer generations, if equipped with them, will pose an even bigger threat to its opponents' critical military and economic infrastructure in the region and thus increase Iran's deterrence immensely.
> Imagine Khorramshahr MRBMs carrying HGVs on the IRGC's newly unveiled nuclear-strike-hardened ballistic missile barrage launch and rail system, or composite body Shahid Haj Qasem missiles, some of which are terminally guided anti-ship versions, equipped with HGVs, buried underground in Iran's missile farms and ready to be launched at any given time over a distance of more than 2000 km.
> In order to be able to detect and track moving naval vessels and reliably guide a MaRV/HGV to hit them over such distances, Iran has to invest heavily in its satellite capabilities and is evidently doing so already.
> 
> By the way, @PeeD, what do you think of 'Thicc Raad' missile versions with larger diameters that are able to carry heavier warheads in the future? Let's say, a chubbier Raad-500 that can carry a heavier, more destructive warhead over the same distance as the usual 'skinny' Raad-500. I definitely need one in my garden. 🤡



Raad-500 motor casing is lighter than the Zolfaghar>Dezful>Haj Qasem.
But the Haj Qasem tells us that Iran is not directly switching to Raad-500 technology.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Raad-500 motor casing is lighter than the Zolfaghar>Dezful>Haj Qasem.
> But the Haj Qasem tells us that Iran is not directly switching to Raad-500 technology.



A little early to say, however, I would point out that the engine of the Haj Qassem (compared to warhead) was so light that they had to add on a bunch of stabilizers (fins) for proper weight distribution.


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## Philosopher

A potential layout for Iranian missile cities:

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## scimitar19

The base doesn't house only missiles and their launches but also can house and launch helicopters, drones and VTOL vehicles of any kind. The general layout of this base especially vertical launch pads reminds of the game hammer heads. You destroy one launching well the other one pops out.


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## Shawnee

Philosopher said:


> A potential layout for Iranian missile cities:
> 
> View attachment 691847



1. What are your thoughts on spacing between the launch pits and the missile inventories. 1 km or 100 m?
-Of course the wider the safer


2. Also safety sealing and venting measure between missile inventories in case of technical glitches or a fire.
-There is need for sealing doors so the combustion gas can be vented out in case of fire and blast.

3. Ventilator outlets
- Oxygen tanks and oxygen makers should be ready to support the team if the vents are all malfunctioning in case of a war.

4. Longevity of ventilator outlets and launch pits in case of a conventional or non conventional attack.
-Widely spaced pits needed in deep crevices of mountains with possibility of debris clearing. If placed in deep granite mountain crevices, it will be safe to even non-conventional attacks.
-Secondary venting and again oxygen makers

5. cyber safety

6. Spy proof and SEAL attack proof
- Security levels and measures
- Parallel teams and missile cities

7. Self sufficiency and maintenance
- Having infrastructures to make missiles inside the mountains
- The ability to feed and maintain the personnel for a long time in case of non conventional attacks.

Reminds me of maintenance of a sub or a space station.

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## Philosopher

Shawnee said:


> 1. What are your thoughts on spacing between the launch pits and the missile inventories. 1 km or 100 m?
> -Of course the wider the safer
> 
> 
> 2. Also safety sealing and venting measure between missile inventories in case of technical glitches or a fire.
> -There is need for sealing doors so the combustion gas can be vented out in case of fire and blast.
> 
> 3. Ventilator drains
> - Oxygen tanks and oxygen makers should be ready to support the team if the vents are all malfunctioning in case of a war.
> 
> 4. Longevity of ventilator drains and launch pits in case of a conventional or non conventional attack.
> -Widely spaced pits needed in deep crevices of mountains with possibility of debris clearing. If placed in deep granite mountain crevices, it will be safe to even non-conventional attacks.
> -Secondary venting and again oxygen makers
> 
> 5. cyber safety
> 
> 6. Spy proof and SEAL attack proof
> - Security levels and measures
> - Parallel teams and missile cities
> 
> 7. Self sufficiency and maintenance
> - Having infrastructures to make missiles inside the mountains
> - The ability to feed and maintain the personnel for a long time in case of non conventional attacks.
> 
> Reminds me of maintenance of a sub or a space station.



Good questions, sadly we do not have enough data to know the answers, but what I can say with confidence is all these points would have been heavily dealt with in the process of creating such an important facility.

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## Shawnee

Philosopher said:


> Good questions, sadly we do not have enough data to know the answers, but what I can say with confidence is all these points would have been heavily dealt with in the process of creating such an important facility.



Exactly. Digging and tunneling are just half the work.


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## WudangMaster

Shawnee said:


> Reminds me of maintenance of a sub or a space station.


In some ways, it is a limited version of biosphere 2 and some of these experiences could be declassified and shared in the future for totally sealed environments. I wonder now if there is a room somewhere in these cities, even a small one, where the light bulbs are stronger in some spectrums for both plants and for personnel's overall health. Such a place could be coupled together with a small recreation/exercise/mosalla/sleeping/bathroom area that would certainly be needed, depending on how often people rotate in and out. Even a small number of plants in the area coupled with more intense light where personnel spend their off shift hours can greatly extend their duty time. These details are not as important as the missile part or even as exciting for that matter, but your post got me thinking about the mundane day to day inside these facilities.

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## Shawnee

WudangMaster said:


> In some ways, it is a limited version of biosphere 2 and some of these experiences could be declassified and shared in the future for totally sealed environments. I wonder now if there is a room somewhere in these cities, even a small one, where the light bulbs are stronger in some spectrums for both plants and for personnel's overall health. Such a place could be coupled together with a small recreation/exercise/mosalla/sleeping/bathroom area that would certainly be needed, depending on how often people rotate in and out. Even a small number of plants in the area coupled with more intense light where personnel spend their off shift hours can greatly extend their duty time. These details are not as important as the missile part or even as exciting for that matter, but your post got me thinking about the mundane day to day inside these facilities.



1. Correct. Expert physicians are also needed.

2. If we add second strike capability, we can add food supply chain. There are many ways to produce food without sun.
Also to make oxygen from CO2.

3. Complete missile and steel production lines from iron ores inside the mountains, for a continuous second strike capability.

4. Now I go to the *extreme case *
Also important to have females, since they have to carry the *finest genes *after the first strike.

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## skyshadow



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## Philosopher

Ghaem-114:

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## skyshadow

*4 versions of Qhaem-114 missile for guidance each version uses either Leaser or TV camera for day or IR camera for night or radar for bad weather










*

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## skyshadow

some of you may not know *( because its not been unveiled yet ) *but Iran defense ministry has a more advance version of these Hellfire missiles for almost 10 years they are called *Sadid-1 missiles* they are reversed engineered *AGM-114L variant* but *Sadid-1 has been upgraded,* its has *Millimetre-Wave (MMV) seeker* , it means you can *program its software*, its alot more *resilient to enemy countermeasures*, *digital electronics* and *autopilot* and its for *all weather* conditions, and its bigger then Ghaem-114 missiles

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## sha ah

So it can carry a maximum of 4 Sadid missiles ? Isn't that the same as the Shahed-129 ? imo they need to work on increasing the payload. Perhaps they could modify the airframe so that its powered by 2 engines rather than 1 ?

Perhaps they should modify this platform to carry cruise missiles ? However it's not really necessary since the Karrar UAV is already a flying missile / interceptor that can also drop bombs on targets.



skyshadow said:


> some of you may not know *( because its not been unveiled yet ) *but Iran defense ministry has a more advance version of these Hellfire missiles for almost 10 years they are called *Sadid-1 missiles* they are reversed engineered *AGM-114L variant* but *Sadid-1 has been upgraded,* its has *Millimetre-Wave (MMV) seeker* , it means you can *program its software*, its alot more *resilient to enemy countermeasures*, *digital electronics* and *autopilot* and its for *all weather* conditions, and its bigger then Ghaem-114 missiles
> 
> 
> View attachment 692417
> 
> 
> View attachment 692418
> 
> 
> View attachment 692420
> 
> 
> View attachment 692419

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## skyshadow

sha ah said:


> So it can carry a maximum of 4 Sadid missiles ? Isn't that the same as the Shahed-129 ? imo they need to work on increasing the payload. Perhaps they could modify the airframe so that its powered by 2 engines rather than 1 ?
> 
> Perhaps they should modify this platform to carry cruise missiles ? However it's not really necessary since the Karrar UAV is already a flying missile / interceptor that can also drop bombs on targets.


agreed, but again we don't know max payload for Fotros and Sadid-1 are heavier then Ghaem-114


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## skyshadow

*Venezuela & Iran: "The flotillas are often accompanied by Iranian naval vessels, including an intelligence ship that US officials say has been used to transport missiles to Iranian proxies in the Middle East, according to U.S. officials"

the head of U.S. Southern Command told reporters today that it has observed an "alarming and concerning" presence of Iran IRGC-QF personnel in Venezuela, & that it's not just oil shipments, but arms as well. *















Iranian Arms, Fighters Bolster Maduro Government in Venezuela, U.S. Says


Iran has sent arms and dispatched paramilitary operatives to help Venezuela President Nicolás Maduro maintain his hold on power, the top U.S. military commander for Central and South America said.




www.wsj.com

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## aryobarzan

I do not know if this is a proper thread but here we go.

many years back I read in an Iranian newspaper memoirs of some one (may be Tehrani Moghadam himself!!) during Iran_Iraq war the story of how they set up and made operational Iran's first Scud missile left in a cave and given to Shah of Iran by the Soviets, how they fired it and what happened to it....If any one knows how to access this It would be great to publish that in here and even if required I will translate it into English for non farsi speakers.

It is a fascinating story like a 007 novel but real..

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## WudangMaster

aryobarzan said:


> I do not know if this is a proper thread but here we go.
> 
> many years back I read in an Iranian newspaper memoirs of some one (may be Tehrani Moghadam himself!!) during Iran_Iraq war the story of how they set up and made operational Iran's first Scud missile left in a cave and given to Shah of Iran by the Soviets, how they fired it and what happened to it....If any one knows how to access this It would be great to publish that in here and even if required I will translate it into English for non farsi speakers.
> 
> It is a fascinating story like a 007 novel but real..


Wsa it a natural cave, or was it an excavated tunnel/cavern? This could possibly mean these excavations could have been happening as far back as the 70s!


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## aryobarzan

WudangMaster said:


> Wsa it a natural cave, or was it an excavated tunnel/cavern? This could possibly mean these excavations could have been happening as far back as the 70s!


As I recall it was an underground US operated site which was dug inside a mountain with natural caves. It had blast doors which the crew had difficulty to open as all US personnel were gone after sabotaging the location.

I was in Iran as the revolution happened and the US sabotaged many locations before leaving..I personally knew about a Tank simulation facility in Isfahan that had all it UPS system blown up..Iranian crew were frantically looking for military and electronics engineering and they were collecting people to transport to ISFAHAN... the rest I can not tell you..lol

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## WudangMaster

aryobarzan said:


> As I recall it was an underground US operated site which was dug inside a mountain with natural caves. It had blast doors which the crew had difficulty to open as all US personnel were gone after sabotaging the location.


I hope that site is no longer sensitive as the US would have plans for the interior layout of that facility, even it has been expanded and changed over time.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334632077854183426

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334932742631546881

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## Sineva

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334632077854183426
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334932742631546881


I see that the zionists are trotting out the old "amad plan" claims again......
Ignoring for a moment the fact that 5 10kt warheads is about as puny a nuclear "arsenal" as one could imagine,just where was iran going to get the fissile material for these supposed "warheads" from in the first place?

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## Ich

Sineva said:


> I see that the zionists are trotting out the old "amad plan" claims again......
> Ignoring for a moment the fact that 5 10kt warheads is about as puny a nuclear "arsenal" as one could imagine,just where was iran going to get the fissile material for these supposed "warheads" from in the first place?



Israel smuggled it into Iran with the help of MEK for to prove their claims....

(come on folks! It was a joke!)


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## Shawnee

Retired general *Lloyd Austin* will be the *first black* man to lead the pentagon. Just appointed by Biden.
One line from him:

"What I would say is that what we and the people in the region are concerned about is that they already have *overmatch* with the *numbers of ballistic missiles,*" Austin told the Senate Armed Services Committee.


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## WudangMaster

Shawnee said:


> they already have *overmatch* with the *numbers of ballistic missiles,*" Austin told the Senate Armed Services Committee.


And I suppose these parasitic scum will be the ones to determine for Iran what is an appropriate number or range to "match" the region. 
Sick irony here is that the brainless goyim of izrahell who can nuke the world 100 times over is barking this. There will never be enough missiles to deal with all the ticks, fleas, leaches, & lice infesting the region natively and from abroad!

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## VEVAK

WudangMaster said:


> I hope that site is no longer sensitive as the US would have plans for the interior layout of that facility, even it has been expanded and changed over time.



Aside from the fact that Iran is more than capable of expanding and redesigning these tunnels, in many of these cases it really doesn't matter if the U.S. has blue prints of them or not! What matters is the payload requirement necessary to damage these facilities in any meaningful way. 

For example If a minimum of 6,000 lb is required to simply scratch the surface of such facilities that limits the type of platforms, range, speed, maneuverability & the number of ordnances each platform can carry which in turn increases the number of weapon systems and Air Defense sites and equipment you would need to take out and or engage to create safe passage to and from such facilities meaning not only do the routs have to be safe but the location of which these Aircraft go back and land would also have to be secure and due to Iran's size and the number of these facilities it becomes rather complicated and costly task to accomplish and get away with and unless your successful in severely degrading Iran's retaliatory capabilities you would then be forced to defend against the hell Iran's going to bring to you and your allies.

Now does the U.S. have the capability to carry out such an attack? Yes with B-2 Bombers they absolutely do! 
However would such an attack be sufficient enough to degrade Iran's capabilities to a point that they can get away with it with little to no consequence when it becomes Iran's turn to respond? in my opinion NO! 
If the Saudi's couldn't stop Yemen that's a relatively small & financially pour country right off their own boarder from firing Missiles at them the idea that the U.S. would be able to prevent an Iranian retaliation is nothing but a delusion.

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## makranman

VEVAK said:


> Aside from the fact that Iran is more than capable of expanding and redesigning these tunnels, in many of these cases it really doesn't matter if the U.S. has blue prints of them or not! What matters is the payload requirement necessary to damage these facilities in any meaningful way.
> 
> For example If a minimum of 6,000 lb is required to simply scratch the surface of such facilities that limits the type of platforms, range, speed, maneuverability & the number of ordnances each platform can carry which in turn increases the number of weapon systems and Air Defense sites and equipment you would need to take out and or engage to create safe passage to and from such facilities meaning not only do the routs have to be safe but the location of which these Aircraft go back and land would also have to be secure and due to Iran's size and the number of these facilities it becomes rather complicated and costly task to accomplish and get away with and unless your successful in severely degrading Iran's retaliatory capabilities you would then be forced to defend against the hell Iran's going to bring to you and your allies.
> 
> Now does the U.S. have the capability to carry out such an attack? Yes with B-2 Bombers they absolutely do!
> However would such an attack be sufficient enough to degrade Iran's capabilities to a point that they can get away with it with little to no consequence when it becomes Iran's turn to respond? in my opinion NO!
> If the Saudi's couldn't stop Yemen that's a relatively small & financially pour country right off their own boarder from firing Missiles at them the idea that the U.S. would be able to prevent an Iranian retaliation is nothing but a delusion.


how about BMs? 
can is it possible to use ballistic missiles they currently own for such a task? do they have enough of them?

also, can we deploy passive air defence systems around these locations? if yes, i think the problem wil become even bigger for them. since there will be no signals emitted..


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## WudangMaster

makranman said:


> how about BMs?
> can is it possible to use ballistic missiles they currently own for such a task? do they have enough of them?
> 
> also, can we deploy passive air defence systems around these locations? if yes, i think the problem wil become even bigger for them. since there will be no signals emitted..


At some point others will certainly start fielding BMs that are/will be a concern hence the revisions recently seen being applied to Bavar for ABM emphasis.
Also these facilities are probably going deeper and expanding further as others are being built to supplement or act as decoys, etc.
As far as passive AD, there are systems using passive radars (I think S-300 for one). The known locations probably use everything whereas the secret ones would be probably using exclusively passive systems.

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## Sineva

Interesting animated overview of irans missile forces

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336369999632470016It looks to be missing the precision guidance retro fitted missiles like the nazeat and zelzal,but I suppose technically these were originally classed as heavy caliber artillery rockets.

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## skyshadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336369975192219648

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1337069045565296642So the Khorramshahr, with a smaller warhead, can already reach all of the EU. Iran's next goal HAS to be to develop a missile that can reach Washington DC. That would be a potent deterrent. Honestly I hope Iran simply builds an ICBM soon.



skyshadow said:


> View attachment 694298
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336369975192219648

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338076408778792960


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## WudangMaster

I'd say do it at osint level with what is already known.


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## Oldman1

makranman said:


> how about BMs?
> can is it possible to use ballistic missiles they currently own for such a task? do they have enough of them?
> 
> also, can we deploy passive air defence systems around these locations? if yes, i think the problem wil become even bigger for them. since there will be no signals emitted..


Not for awhile. We just barely started developing them since INF withdraw last year. Give at least 10 years. USAF plans to put some hypersonic weapons on B-1s and B-52s. U.S. Navy plans to put some on the destroyers possibly even the Zumwalt class. U.S. Army plans to extend the range of the current MLRS platforms to shoot missiles that were originally 499km to 800km. And also developing their own IRBMs with about 4,000km range to 5,000 range. Also developing hypersonic missile.


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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338518020415696897

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## skyshadow

*what is this it ? looks like 122mm racket but im not sure, why would a aerospace company unveil such unimportant project ? it doesn't add up*

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> *what is this it ? looks like 122mm racket but im not sure, why would a aerospace company unveil such unimportant project ? it doesn't add up*
> 
> 
> View attachment 699307


Whatever it is I dont think its a rocket,for a start you have those 2 small sets of "fins" which frankly with those swept back tips look more like some kind of rotor system,not to mention the tapering end cap on the back of the thing.
One possibility that comes to mind would be a towed self powered decoy for a drone or aircraft

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## makranman

skyshadow said:


> *what is this it ? looks like 122mm racket but im not sure, why would a aerospace company unveil such unimportant project ? it doesn't add up*
> 
> 
> View attachment 699307


it looks like it uses those 2 sets of ... wings (?) as a propeller? it could be a slow missile using electric engines?


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## skyshadow

Sineva said:


> Whatever it is I dont think its a rocket,for a start you have those 2 small sets of "fins" which frankly with those swept back tips look more like some kind of rotor system,not to mention the tapering end cap on the back of the thing.
> One possibility that comes to mind would be a towed self powered decoy for a drone or aircraft


either that or its the start project of missile 358 maybe a missile with some kind of air defense role in mind


makranman said:


> it looks like it uses those 2 sets of ... wings (?) as a propeller? it could be a slow missile using electric engines?


yes 2 sets of wings i suspect the back one could be a buster ? the back section looks more like a buster of some kind

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## skyshadow



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1342567426442080257

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1342781029535391745

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## Sineva

Interesting video of a saudi ch-4b drone being shot down over yemen by an unknown weapon......possibly a 358 nlos type?,certainly whatever it is appears to be moving relatively slowly and also has a warhead judging by the explosion.If so this would likely be the first recorded shoot down of a drone by another drone or drone type weapon under actual combat conditions.






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341393012140761091

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## Sineva

A very interesting article about the threat of irans missiles by the founding director of the israeli missile defence organisation,uzi rubin





__





Israel and the Precision-Guided Missile Threat


A very interesting article on the threat posed to israel by iran and hezbollahs ballistic missile forces,written by no less than Uzi Rubin,who was the founding director of the israeli missile defence organisation,which managed the arrow abm program...



defence.pk




https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/israel-precision-guided-missiles/
PDF Version

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## Sineva

Mr Iran Eye said:


> This is really wrong !! Iran won the war in Operation Mersad and it bowed its knees to Iraq. That's a big lie in the article


Yes,I`d ignore rubbish like that,

What I did find very ironic is that he seemingly completely overlooks the fact that it was the iraqis use of ballistic missiles in an increasingly desperate attempt to bring the war to the iranian capital,that lead iran to at first simply just acquire/purchase scuds of its own so as to have ballistic missiles that it could shoot back at the iraqis with,but this would then ultimately lead to the creation of the modern day iranian ballistic missile forces that are effectively the basis for irans regional deterrent power.

This does pose an extremely interesting question tho,*Would iran still have gone down the ballistic missile route if the iraqis had decided not to initiate the war of the cities?*,or was it simply always virtually inevitable that iran would`ve had no real choice but to turn to missile power in some form at some point in time during the last 40 years?

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## Mr Iran Eye

Oupsssss

I have expressed myself wrongly , I wanted to say :

This is really wrong !! Iran won the war in Operation Mersad, and Iraq bowed its knees to Iran. That's a big lie in the article

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## WudangMaster

Sineva said:


> This does pose an extremely interesting question tho,*Would iran still have gone down the ballistic missile route if the iraqis had decided not to initiate the war of the cities?*,or was it simply always virtually inevitable that iran would`ve had no real choice but to turn to missile power in some form at some point in time during the last 40 years?


Very interesting point! I always speculate on alternate history/timeline scenarios but never thought about Iran's missiles in any other way. 
I would say there is a very good chance that Iran would not have nearly as many missiles or any at all were it not for the imposed war experiences. Many inside the country would have opposed from a military philosophy that they are not capable enough without nukes, etc I'm sure they probably would have picked up some when Russia was offering them $70k a pop in the early 90s but that would have been the extent of them with little upgrades. 
One could argue that if Iran was ever serious about nuclear capability that they would need missiles either way, but I still don't believe the missile would be as good or the program as extensive, were it not for the direct causes from the imposed war, regardless of nuclear program or not.

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## WudangMaster

These posts need to be here:



aryobarzan said:


> _The story I read a decade ago and as I remember today. The story was told in writings by a person who was there and printed in an Iranian news paper. My memory is foggy but I remember the highlights._
> 
> Before the start of Iran-Iraq war, Soviet Union had provided the Shah of Iran with a single functional SCUD missile as a gift…This was to persuade Shah to buy Soviet weapons (late 1970’s). Iran’s military strategy was based on “air power” as proscribed by the Americans …The ground to ground missile had no place in Iranian strategy and as a result this single SCUD missile was long forgotten and never made operational . The SCUS was stored in an underground facility run by the Americans.
> 
> Shortly after Saddam starts dropping SCUD missiles on Iranian cities. The Iranian military gathers a group of university (professors or students!!) and also few others . They are transported over nite in a plane and trucks to a mountainous site in Western Iran.
> 
> They arrive and are briefed. The SCUD is inside a cave and no one knows how to operate the monster. All they have are few manuals and schematics all in Russian…The person who is telling the story goes on in detail describing how in few days or few weeks (do not remember) they had to translate and pour through Russian manuals and schematics. They had heated arguments (sounds familiar!!lol) about what each dial or circuit is doing..How to Fuel the beast and how to program it and how to orient its gyros and how to fire the beast….An additional issue was how to get it out of the cave. Missile was placed on its tracked wagon (TEL) inside a one way cave. The main entrance/exit to the cave was blocked by a giant blast door…The blast door control was sabotaged by the Americans before they left the placed and stuck in a Shut position…They did not know how to open the door to get the missile and its carrier out.
> 
> Again after many details the story teller say that by the grace of God and many days of work they managed to figure out how to fix the blast door and open the damn thing. They drive the beast and the fuel truck and bring them out in the open. Again they had many arguments about the setting up of the control panel knobs and Gyro setting and fuel valves and pumps and knobs etc....but they finally compromise and set up the missile for Baghdad…. they were ready.
> 
> They erect the missile and are ready to fire the beast .Thinking it will explode on its launcher or at best it will fly for few minutes and drop in the desert… they fired…It roared like a giant dragon and made lots of smoke and fire, but it flew away… Happy that they managed to fire and thinking it will safely drop or run out of fuel in the desert, they go back to the compound and sleep.
> 
> *The next day …...News reports arrive that an Iranian SCUD missile hits the tallest building In Baghdad identified as the headquarters of the biggest Iraq bank in a Bulls eyes manner.*
> 
> _I remember that day when the news came in all western news orgs…I saw even a photo. So I knew the end was real…I just did not know the story behind it…
> 
> Imagine the most inaccurate missile of the soviets with CEP of may be a kilometer being stored for many years, fired by a bunch of university students reading dictionary translated Russian manuals finds its way to record the most accurate hit of missile war between Iran and Iraq*…* This made Iran to go the way of missiles. And then Tehrani Moghadam came back from Syria and made Iran world’s 4th missile power in the world…_
> 
> *”May the FORCE be with you”…*_and this how I became a believer. _





WudangMaster said:


> I remember this story and the pictures posted here, though the pictures posted with the story are not the same as the montage I saw years earlier where they are pouring the fuel in by buckets.

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## VEVAK

Sineva said:


> Yes,I`d ignore rubbish like that,
> 
> What I did find very ironic is that he seemingly completely overlooks the fact that it was the iraqis use of ballistic missiles in an increasingly desperate attempt to bring the war to the iranian capital,that lead iran to at first simply just acquire/purchase scuds of its own so as to have ballistic missiles that it could shoot back at the iraqis with,but this would then ultimately lead to the creation of the modern day iranian ballistic missile forces that are effectively the basis for irans regional deterrent power.
> 
> This does pose an extremely interesting question tho,*Would iran still have gone down the ballistic missile route if the iraqis had decided not to initiate the war of the cities?*,or was it simply always virtually inevitable that iran would`ve had no real choice but to turn to missile power in some form at some point in time during the last 40 years?



I think he meant Saddam became victorious in finally getting Iran to stop slapping him around! 

As for who actually won the war any objective person would clearly analyze it like this:

- Saddam (Iraq) started the war and invaded Iran with clear objective of annexing portion of Iranian soil. 
- Iran was caught off guard and portions of it's territory was initially invaded, however, Iran succeeded in taking back every inch of it's territory. And won by maintaining it's territorial integrity.

So clearly Saddam failed in it's attempt to invade Iran and lost and clearly Iran succeeded in maintaining it's territorial integrity and at least on paper won. (I say on paper because in a war like that both sides loose.) 

Now one can argue that Iran failed to properly punish Saddam, sure that may be true. 
It can be argued that Iran made a mistake in choosing not to end the war years earlier. Maybe, it's easy to judge when you don't really know what the long term outcome of different decision would have been.
It can be argued that given the weapons Iran had it's military clearly underperformed. True, but that would be the fault of the Shah who clearly created a fully dependent military. And none of these arguments change the fact that Iran won at least on paper!

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## skyshadow



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## xbat

ZEHIR? POISON ? what a name


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## Arian

xbat said:


> ZEHIR? POISON ? what a name


No, that would be Zahr.
This is Zaheer, I think. I guess it's an Iranian name of some hero from Shahnameh but I'm not sure.

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## jauk

Arian said:


> No, that would be Zahr.
> This is Zaheer, I think. I guess it's an Iranian name of some hero from Shahnameh but I'm not sure.



Zaheer can be argued easily to mean 'one that poison's ' (see arabic derivatives: زهر، زهیر، فعل، فعیل). Admittedly an unconventional name BUT it's unlikely a Persian name...

UPDATE/CORRECTION: 

Indeed, as Arian noted, Zaheer is a Persian name, based on a warrior in the Shahnameh. Reference:





__





معنی زهیر | لغت‌نامه دهخدا


معنی واژهٔ زهیر در لغت‌نامه دهخدا به فارسی، انگلیسی و عربی از واژه‌یاب




www.vajehyab.com

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## Arian

jauk said:


> Zaheer can be argued easily to mean 'one that poison's ' (see arabic derivatives: زهر، زهیر، فعل، فعیل). Admittedly an unconventional name BUT it's unlikely a Persian name...


We're off-topic, but Zaheer isn't really used in Persian with that meaning. Just like many other Arabic templates that don't exist in Persian. Nobody uses زاهر or مزهور either. If it's Zaheer with that construction, it would mean poisonous to be more precise. It's possible. After all the IRGC loves Arabic names because it has millions of supporters among Arabs (probably more supporters than inside Iran).

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## Sina-1

Arian said:


> We're off-topic, but Zaheer isn't really used in Persian with that meaning. Just like many other Arabic templates that don't exist in Persian. Nobody uses زاهر or مزهور either. If it's Zaheer with that construction, it would mean poisonous to be more precise. It's possible. After all the IRGC loves Arabic names because it has millions of supporters among Arabs (probably more supporters than inside Iran).


It is most likely the Arabic derivate because IRGC produces them and will most likely use them. However, Navy has talked about placing orders on AShBM, and if that it is the case then your shahname theory is plausible. We’ll have to wait to wait and see.

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## WudangMaster

Sina-1 said:


> It is most likely the Arabic derivate because IRGC produces them and will most likely use them. However, Navy has talked about placing orders on AShBM, and if that it is the case then your shahname theory is plausible. We’ll have to wait to wait and see.


I have a feeling that IRGC-ASF might want to hold onto the big missiles in terms of fielding and using them exclusively. On the other hand I can also see IRGC-ASF creating a specialised naval version of missiles optimized to operate from the larger IRIN vessels, but I think they will still want to be the main party in the armed forces associated with powerful missiles.
Also, if IRIN does get missiles, they would have to create a "missileer" branch first and foremost, probably training and even shadowing IRGC-ASF personnel until they get as proficient as IRGC-ASF.


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## Muhammed45

Zahir most probably points to the newly designed engine. With New materials that makes it smaller, faster and lighter than the other ones.

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## Messerschmitt



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## Arian

No matter what the name of the missile is, I truly love its carbon fiber casing. 

There is an alternative explanation for its name: it is Zohayr which is probably named after Prophet Muhammad's friend.

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## Sina-1

WudangMaster said:


> I have a feeling that IRGC-ASF might want to hold onto the big missiles in terms of fielding and using them exclusively. On the other hand I can also see IRGC-ASF creating a specialised naval version of missiles optimized to operate from the larger IRIN vessels, but I think they will still want to be the main party in the armed forces associated with powerful missiles.
> Also, if IRIN does get missiles, they would have to create a "missileer" branch first and foremost, probably training and even shadowing IRGC-ASF personnel until they get as proficient as IRGC-ASF.


I don’t think one excludes the other. Navy is going to build bigger and bigger ships. They have expressed the need of AShBM on their ships. God forbid they try to develop them themselves which would be foolish. It would equally foolish trying to purchase them from another country. Besides IRGC has already sold fateh-derivates to other countries such as Syria, so selling them to another branch within the organization wouldn't be a stretch. But you are right that it is most probably for IRGC!

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## WudangMaster

Sina-1 said:


> I don’t think one excludes the other. Navy is going to build bigger and bigger ships. They have expressed the need of AShBM on their ships. God forbid they try to develop them themselves which would be foolish. It would equally foolish trying to purchase them from another country. Besides IRGC has already sold fateh-derivates to other countries such as Syria, so selling them to another branch within the organization wouldn't be a stretch. But you are right that it is most probably for IRGC!


I don't doubt that IRGC-ASF will provide missiles to IRIN and even train the naval missileer forces, but at the same time, they rightly will want to be the ones associated with creating and fielding them in substantial numbers and facilities. Also considering the upscale in sizes of IRGCN ships like the Shahid Roudaki, IRGCN will probably use the same nasalized missiles they provide to IRIN.

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## Blue In Green

Messerschmitt said:


>



I'm hoping Iran will create 3 or 4 Cell-Block Canisters with Ra'ad-500s in them mounted on cheap to produce TELS.

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## Saleh99

Can anyone tell me how fateh series missiles (fateh, zolfaghar, dezful..)are better than Qiam?
Why do irgc prefer them over qiam...?
@PeeD @skyshadow @Others....

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## WudangMaster

Fateh/Zolfaghar family are solid fueled and are amongst some of the most versatile and precise proven missiles ever developed anywhere. The Qiams are liquid fueled and bigger with heavier payloads but they don't seem as precise or reliable. If I'm not mistaken, the past strikes carried out from 2017 onwards involved a combination of Qiams and Zolfaghars and the Qiams sometimes had issues. 
There was previous speculation here of the possibly stripping the pre existing Qiams of their motors for space launch vehicles. I think their development are also very different paths and histories.

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## Saleh99

WudangMaster said:


> Fateh/Zolfaghar family are solid fueled and are amongst some of the most versatile and precise proven missiles ever developed anywhere. The Qiams are liquid fueled and bigger with heavier payloads but they don't seem as precise or reliable. If I'm not mistaken, the past strikes carried out from 2017 onwards involved a combination of Qiams and Zolfaghars and the Qiams sometimes had issues.
> There was previous speculation here of the possibly stripping the pre existing Qiams of their motors for space launch vehicles. I think their development are also very different paths and histories.


But Qiam-2 is now precise and guided....
I wonder which one is cheaper and works better against Anti Ballistic systems?


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## Sineva

Saleh99 said:


> Can anyone tell me how fateh series missiles (fateh, zolfaghar, dezful..)are better than Qiam?
> Why do irgc prefer them over qiam...?
> @PeeD @skyshadow @Others....


I wouldnt say that the fateh series and its derivatives are "better" as such,like all weapons they have their respective strengths and weaknesses.The main advantage to the quasi ballistics is that they can be deployed very quickly with little warning,as opposed to liquid fueled ballistic missiles like the qiam that will require fueling either before hand or after deploying to its firing position out in the countryside,this however will require additional support vehicles and personnel,tho the creation of the new salvo fire systems at the missile bases does overcome some of that problem.
Another advantage of the quasi ballistics is that operating lower down in the atmosphere reduces the chances of being detected by ir early warning satellites as opposed to liquid fueled ballistics that will be flying out to the edge of space.
Ideally iran would use both types in any conflict to both ensure the destruction of the selected targets and to be sure that any defences would have to deal with both types of weapons therefor further complicating things for that defence.However if the target was time critical or the retaliation had to be virtually immediate then its likely that the quasi ballistics would be the first weapon of choice.

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## WudangMaster

Saleh99 said:


> I wonder which one is cheaper and works better against Anti Ballistic systems?


The Fateh/Zolfaghar deried HARM variant for sure, though the bigger liquids can also do the job. Also remember both types now have mass launch abilities.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On a slightly different note, it seems that you can still be seen and trolled by a certain degenerate tapeworm, even if the mozaleff faggot piece of garbage is placed on ignore; this is something that needs to be improved upon. To this member I say the only funny thing around here are your wet dreams of ingesting bin salman's body fluids you depraved little cock roach. Have a nice day sunshine ;-)

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## skyshadow

Saleh99 said:


> Can anyone tell me how fateh series missiles (fateh, zolfaghar, dezful..)are better than Qiam?
> Why do irgc prefer them over qiam...?
> @PeeD @skyshadow @Others....


let me make it super easy , Fateh family has the same payload capacity as Qiam, better flight path, 15-20 ready to fire status and 1/3 of the size of Qiam, and more .....

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## skyshadow

*whaaaaaaat? 😳😳😳😳 did Hajizadeh just said he will not obey the 2000km range limit ?*

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## yavar

Saleh99 said:


> Can anyone tell me how fateh series missiles (fateh, zolfaghar, dezful..)are better than Qiam?


they are not Better than Qiam family,
the latest Qiam BM are no longer look like Qiam 1 or .....


Saleh99 said:


> Why do irgc prefer them over qiam...?


it because it is nuclear capable even “low-yield" ( usable nuks as American say)





in whatever level there Attack take place in that level they will get response

Feb 07, 2020
*Risk of Nuclear War Rises as U.S. Deploys a New Nuclear Weapon for the First Time Since the Cold War
so as Trump says it is locked and loaded*


IN 2014
*Iran IRGC Gen Panah*

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## skyshadow

*2000 km range limit is not for ever*







__





سردار حاجی‌زاده: هرچه از قدرت موشکی در غزه و لبنان می‌بینید با حمایت ایران است/ محدودیت برد 2هزار کیلومتر موشکی ابدی نیست- اخبار نظامی | دفاعی | امنیتی - اخبار سیاسی تسنیم | Tasnim


فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران انقلاب اسلامی گفت: هرآنچه از توان موشکی در غزه و لبنان می‌بینید با حمایت جمهوری اسلامی ایران صورت گرفته است.




www.tasnimnews.com

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## WudangMaster

I love how He is warning ms zarif to not even think about it. 
He knows that once ms zarif sees john kerry, she might start drooling and offer Iran's missiles in exchange for a kiss.

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## aryobarzan

WudangMaster said:


> I love how He is warning ms zarif to not even think about it.
> He knows that once ms zarif sees john kerry, she might start drooling and offer Iran's missiles in exchange for a kiss.


_"I love how He is warning ms zarif to not even think about it.
He knows that once ms zarif sees john kerry, she might start drooling and offer Iran's missiles in exchange for a kiss."_

man you are funny...lol

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## skyshadow

*Did Iran conduct a Missile Engine Static Test at Khojir Missile Production Complex in July 2020? A few days after a gas storage tank blew up on the Eastern area of the complex, sat imageries show pre-test activity at the test stand and a scorched area on the flame deflector. 



 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346206103072288768*

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## Surenas

McKenzie on Iran's missile force:

''Even if Biden’s team gets an early agreement on “compliance for compliance,” the new Administration may not be able to negotiate much more until after a new Iranian President is inaugurated, in August. And then the issues only get more complex. The Pentagon is increasingly worried about Iran’s missile program, which has been pivotal to both offensive and defensive capabilities since the country’s air force was decimated during the long war with Iraq. “Over the last four years, Iran has continued to build ballistic missiles even while they’ve been under significant economic pressure,” General Kenneth F. McKenzie, Jr., the head of U.S. Central Command, told me.

Iran has half a million men and women in uniform; it is the largest military force in the Middle East, and the fourteenth largest in the world. Yet its capabilities are limited. Missiles are “the one thing that allows them to threaten their neighbors,” McKenzie said. “They have no army they can deploy. They have no air force worthy of its name, and they have a very weak and impoverished, fractured navy. But what they do have, what they view as the crown jewel, is their ballistic-missile force.” Iran’s arsenal of missiles is “very good, and they’re getting better,” McKenzie told me. Tehran has shared many of its rockets and missiles—via the Quds Force—with proxy forces in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen. “It’s a problem Biden’s going to have to face,” he said.''









Biden Faces a Minefield in New Diplomacy with Iran


The President-elect has known key revolutionaries for decades, but time is short before Iran’s own Presidential election.




www.newyorker.com

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## Shawnee

Surenas said:


> McKenzie on Iran's missile force:
> 
> ''Even if Biden’s team gets an early agreement on “compliance for compliance,” the new Administration may not be able to negotiate much more until after a new Iranian President is inaugurated, in August. And then the issues only get more complex. The Pentagon is increasingly worried about Iran’s missile program, which has been pivotal to both offensive and defensive capabilities since the country’s air force was decimated during the long war with Iraq. “Over the last four years, Iran has continued to build ballistic missiles even while they’ve been under significant economic pressure,” General Kenneth F. McKenzie, Jr., the head of U.S. Central Command, told me.
> 
> Iran has half a million men and women in uniform; it is the largest military force in the Middle East, and the fourteenth largest in the world. Yet its capabilities are limited. Missiles are “the one thing that allows them to threaten their neighbors,” McKenzie said. “They have no army they can deploy. They have no air force worthy of its name, and they have a very weak and impoverished, fractured navy. But what they do have, what they view as the crown jewel, is their ballistic-missile force.” Iran’s arsenal of missiles is “very good, and they’re getting better,” McKenzie told me. Tehran has shared many of its rockets and missiles—via the Quds Force—with proxy forces in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen. “It’s a problem Biden’s going to have to face,” he said.''
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biden Faces a Minefield in New Diplomacy with Iran
> 
> 
> The President-elect has known key revolutionaries for decades, but time is short before Iran’s own Presidential election.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newyorker.com



They could deter Iran three decades ago by selling Iran F16 and F15. Iran would not dare to challenge US with F15 and F16 made by US.
One mistake and the whole Iranian airforce would be gone.

Now thousands of home made missiles under mountains brings huge ammunition delivery rate and a sense of safety and victory. That is where counter deterrence appears.


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## yavar



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## Shawnee

If you got offended by the McKenzie and CENTCOM paper, don’t. They want to pitch their idea of not including BM in JCPOA.

Contrarily, you need to overblow the power of BM, if you want to include it in JCPOA at any price.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346221423640117254


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## Raghfarm007

yavar said:


>



Yavar jan.... the sound cuts off at 28 minuites.....

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## Mr Iran Eye

McKenzie is a clown who greatly underestimates Iranian power. Iran can mobilize 6 million combatants in a short time. If we count the force of Al Qods and their friends of the resistance, Iran is the greatest land power in the world if we combine all the forces on the ground. The air force combined with the many drones will be powerful and the navy is very powerful too.

The US is poor war tacticians and their analysis is completely wrong. We see some examples here on the forum of American thought that is failing

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## yavar

Raghfarm007 said:


> Yavar jan.... the sound cuts off at 28 minuites.....

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## skyshadow



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## yavar



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## Saleh99

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 703746


Spike islam but frontal fins look different...?

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## skyshadow

Saleh99 said:


> Spike islam but frontal fins look different...?


put 3-4 Spike on together and they will still be smaller then this monster of a missile sooo no this is new


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## WudangMaster

This version might have sound all the way through.

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## EvilWesteners

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 703746



Don't know much about these missiles or their canister but I do remember that in 1970s U.S. was testing the same canister of sidewinder for ground attack missiles. I wonder if they shared this with Iran in 1975-1978 or not. But again, this is not an area I know anything about.

It would be great if Iran could reverse engineer these metal frame canisters for common parts manufacturing - ideal in cost reduction. I am a believer of this, cost reduction.

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## yavar



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## aryobarzan

*Is Iran going to dedicate such a focused effort on this domain...Hypersonic fits very nicely with Iran's NON-NUCLEAR deterrence strategy...??*

*North Korea forms new research center focused on “hypersonic missiles”*

The center has been ordered to conduct “full-fledged development of hypersonic guided missiles and shipboard laser weapons,” a source told Daily NK

Based on the source’s report, North Korean authorities believe hypersonic missiles, with their high speed, ability to fly at low altitudes – and even to perform evasive maneuvers – *could prove a “game changer” that will “shake up” the world’s military and security order by replacing nuclear weapons, which are unlikely to be used in real combat. *

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## yavar



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347212531987787776

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## yavar



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## VEVAK

yavar said:


>



Seems to me that at this rate they badly need to start working on cruise missiles that can be stored and launched vertically....

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## yavar

VEVAK said:


> Seems to me that at this rate they badly need to start working on cruise missiles that can be stored and launched vertically....


soon you see them on naval vessels

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## Khibiny

Documentary about the missile strike on Ain Al Assad.

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## yavar

Iran high classified IRGC assessment Video after intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) test in 2005 by Ex Chief IRGC Aerospace Martyr Gen. Haj Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam ( the video in question was only show to the cleric )

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## Shawnee

yavar said:


> Iran high classified IRGC assessment Video after intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) test in 2005 by Ex Chief IRGC Aerospace Martyr Gen. Haj Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam ( the video in question was only show to the cleric )



احمد اقا کیه


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## yavar

Shawnee said:


> احمد اقا کیه

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## Khibiny

A long time ago I heard an Iranian cleric say that Iran had missiles that can hit California's shores since 2004.

What Tehrani said confirms it for me.

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## Muhammed45

yavar said:


>


So Iran had developed ICBMs almost 15 years ago. We can be sure that Iran is completely capable of delivering a hard punch in US' face. 

Well done.

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## Khibiny

I think the timing of this reveal is very well chosen.

it says to the American that even if you leave the region we still can get to you with our ICBMs.

Iran was bullshitting the world with its 2000 KM missile range because US bases are close, and now that they will leave (in peace or in pieces), they are revealing the public secret that iran has ICBMs that can hit every square inch of the US soil.

Moreover, there is a Libanese political commentator named Anis Naqqach that has very strong ties with the IRGC that said that Iran has missile farms in Venezuela that can hit the US, and that all the US oil rigs will be melted if the US attacks iran or Venezuela oil infrastructures (he was commentating on Iran sending oil shipments to venezuela and US threatening to hijack them).

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## Xerxes22

Does anyone know where @SalarHaqq is? He hasnt posted in here for a while. I dont think he's banned. wherever he is hopefully he's okay. Anyone know anything about this?

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## yavar

mohammad45 said:


> So Iran had developed ICBMs almost 15 years ago. We can be sure that Iran is completely capable of delivering a hard punch in US' face.
> 
> Well done.


Haj Hassan is talking liquid propellant 


this was Martyr Syed Mehdi Solid & Martyr Salki propellant
Jan,2015




It then showed a satellite photograph of a second site, nearby, which featured a launch pad, with the 27-meter missile on it — an Iranian missile “never seen before” by the West.
*Israeli TV shows ‘Iranian missile’ that ‘can reach far beyond Europe’ 2015*









Israeli TV shows ‘Iranian missile’ that ‘can reach far beyond Europe’


Satellite images taken outside Tehran feature first look at long-range missile newly developed by Iran, TV report says




www.timesofisrael.com






and now they have modified it for SLV use and call it
* Zuljanah SLV 27M*






these are not only projects
IRI always runs multilayer programs because of experience to make sure the program successes

so the Qaem solid fuel propellant












ex......

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## Xerxes22

Khibiny said:


> I think the timing of this reveal is very well chosen.
> 
> it says to the American that even if you leave the region we still can get to you with our ICBMs.
> 
> Iran was bullshitting the world with its 2000 KM missile range because US bases are close, and now that they will leave (in peace or in pieces), they are revealing the public secret that iran has ICBMs that can hit every square inch of the US soil.
> 
> Moreover, there is a Libanese political commentator named Anis Naqqach that has very strong ties with the IRGC that said that Iran has missile farms in Venezuela that can hit the US, and that all the US oil rigs will be melted if the US attacks iran or Venezuela oil infrastructures (he was commentating on Iran sending oil shipments to venezuela and US threatening to hijack them).
> 
> There is another Libanese political commentator named Nacer Kandil with strong ties to the IRGC that also said that Iran told America and the west that if Iran is nuked, it will make a nuke in less than a week and will nuke everyone that attacked Iran.
> 
> He said that Iran told America that the Fatwa about nukes being forbidden will change the second Iran is nuked.


Incredible. The significance of this is sky high. It wud be a strategic masterstroke if Iran reveals the true extent of its Missiles capability after US leaves the region. This will send a statement to US saying, "just because now you got back to a safe distance doesnt mean we cant strike you , if u start any bullS**t against us."

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## Hormuz

Xerxes22 said:


> Does anyone know where @SalarHaqq is? He hasnt posted in here for a while. I dont think he's banned. wherever he is hopefully he's okay. Anyone know anything about this?



i asked few days ago where he is. i guess no one knows. hope he comes back soon.

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> Iran high classified IRGC assessment Video after intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) test in 2005 by Ex Chief IRGC Aerospace Martyr Gen. Haj Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam ( the video in question was only show to the cleric )



any short translation from you guys  many thanks in advance


mohammad45 said:


> So Iran had developed ICBMs almost 15 years ago. We can be sure that Iran is completely capable of delivering a hard punch in US' face.
> 
> Well done.


well, the Iranian ICMB capability was an open secret since more than an decade or so, this should be nothing shocking for anyone who follows Iranian missile achievments (old iranmilitaryforum....)

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> nothing important Gen. Kazemi talking about him and Haj Hassan traveling in 1988 to Russia for purchase of some missile technology but the Russian as usual fxxx about so Gen Kazemei start project in Iran and manged to over come the techological barrier


thanks brother @yavar 
I hope the achievements in the air defence field is also promising, we cant rely on russia, history shows...

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> any short translation from you guys  many thanks in advance


sorry that was translation the this video


yavar said:


>





Draco.IMF said:


> thanks brother @yavar
> I hope the achievements in the air defence field is also promising, we cant rely on russia, history shows...



the new video Haj Hassan talking after successful test flight of liquid propellant with range that can reach American continent

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## Philosopher

Combine these footages released with the recent statement from Hajizadeh then it appears Iran's posture regarding to ICBM may change in the foreseeable future. As stated before, Iran stance on nuclear weapons and ICBMs is just smoke and mirrors. It was always just a matter of when they would decide to openly reveal such capabilities. ICBMs first and then nukes when necessary.

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## AUz

Mr Iran Eye said:


> McKenzie is a clown who greatly underestimates Iranian power. Iran can mobilize 6 million combatants in a short time. If we count the force of Al Qods and their friends of the resistance, *Iran is the greatest land power in the world if we combine all the forces on the ground.* The air force combined with the many drones will be powerful and the navy is very powerful too.
> 
> The US is poor war tacticians and their analysis is completely wrong. We see some examples here on the forum of American thought that is failing



Lol, please stop.

US is the greatest land, air, and naval power in history of humankind. And most likely, US will also be the greatest space power when that times comes. 

Iran is a formidable regional power but that's all.


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## Mr Iran Eye

AUz said:


> Lol, please stop.
> 
> US is the greatest land, air, and naval power in history of humankind. And most likely, US will also be the greatest space power when that times comes.
> 
> Iran is a formidable regional power but that's all.




False !!

Iran, the Al Qods Force, and its resistance allies are the world's largest land army. Millions of men and women ready to serve. Iran can mobilize 6 million people in no time, so imagine with the resistance outside the country. The USA are no match


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## Surenas

*U.S. troops survived a barrage of missiles from Iran. A year later, they’re still coping with it.*

The U.S. soldiers scrambled from one bunker to the next, stumbling past charred wreckage, 30-foot-wide craters and puddles of diesel fuel. A barrage of ballistic missiles had briefly knocked some of them unconscious, and more were on the way.

Maj. Alan Johnson struggled to focus after absorbing the monstrous blast waves of several explosions, including one that missed his bunker by about 60 feet, he recalled.

“I still have anxiety,” Johnson said. “I still have recurring nightmares of incoming — just that sound of those things coming in.”

The United States stood at the precipice of full-scale war a year ago when Iran launched 16 missiles at U.S. forces in Iraq. Eleven struck Ain al-Asad air base in the western part of the country, another landed outside the northern city of Irbil and four malfunctioned, the military said.

After months of escalating confrontation, Iranian-backed forces had laid siege to the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad about a week earlier. The Trump administration responded a few days later by launching a drone strike in Baghdad that killed an Iranian general, Qasem Soleimani, a longtime U.S. nemesis.

Facing the gravest international security crisis of his presidency, Trump suddenly shifted gears. “All is well!” he tweeted within hours of the attack on Jan. 8, 2020.

A year later, service members who endured the attack described how close the United States and Iran came to greater calamity.

No U.S. troops were killed despite Iran’s use of weapons that were each about 40 feet long and carrying 1,600 pounds of explosives, more powerful than any weapon launched at Americans in a generation.

But 110 survivors were ultimately diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries, some requiring long hospitalizations and intensive therapies at the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center outside Washington. The military disclosed the injures days after the strike, saying that an earlier Trump announcement that there were “no casualties” was based on the best information the Pentagon had at the time.

In reality, 29 services members, including Johnson, were injured seriously enough to receive Purple Hearts in the strike, which the Iranians called Operation Martyr Soleimani.

The attack left some with feelings of anger and helplessness. Survivors are still pondering a night that increasingly seemed overlooked in a year that went on to include the coronavirus pandemic, a fraught national conversation about race and one of the most contentious presidential elections in American history.

“I can’t think that anyone has walked away from this without some sort of effects, psychologically or emotionally, because of how traumatic the event was,” said Lt. Col. Johnathan Jordan, the operations officer for an Air Force unit present that night.

*Preparing for attack*

Almost immediately after the strike on Soleimani, U.S. troops across the Middle East started preparing for possible Iranian revenge.

Air Force Tech. Sgt. Samuel Levander, a crew member for a Special Operations aviation squadron temporarily assigned to Al Asad, said civilian employees hired to cook food on base even stopped showing up for work.

His unit began assessing how many people they could pack into their aircraft, a CV-22, if a quick escape was needed.

It was Jan. 7 when the severity of the threat became clear: Iran wasn’t planning to attack with rockets, which can kill a couple of people at a time, but with much more powerful missiles launched from miles away across the Iraqi border.

Jordan said he and his commander, Lt. Col. Staci Coleman, drew up a plan. Half of the 160 airmen they oversaw would leave on a C-130 with Jordan leading them, she decided. The other half would stay with Coleman, hunkering down in bunkers.

“We were expecting just total devastation at that point,” Jordan recalled.

Elsewhere on the base, scores of U.S. Special Operations troops prepared to leave on three CV-22 aircraft, each with 24 seats. Levander’s team calculated they could pack in many more, ultimately removing 194 people, according to an award citation first reported by Air Force Times.

Others had to stay.

Air Force Senior Master Sgt. Noal Yarnes took cover in a fortified structure, telling the airmen under his supervision to bring their gas masks — just in case. The missiles, he knew, were capable of carrying chemical weapons.

Johnson, working with soldiers on another part of Al Asad, decided to record a video message for his son, Jack, now 7. He wanted to leave behind some last words, he said, just in case “something bad happened to Dad.”

*'Incoming, incoming!'*

The airfield was quiet as midnight arrived — “almost like a ghost town,” said Tech. Sgt. Bryan Moody, part of an Air Force security forces team on duty.

Moody, a member of the Kentucky Air National Guard, and his colleagues drove around in an mine-resistant truck, making sure the base was secure. Other troops stood watch in guard towers, vigilant in case a ground attack also materialized, while nearly everyone else left on the base sheltered in place.

The warning rang out over loudspeakers after 1 a.m.: “Incoming! Incoming! Take cover!”

The first missile exploded at 1:34 a.m. about 100 yards from the mine-resistant vehicle that Moody’s team was driving, casting debris on the hood. The reinforced doors were blown open by the concussive blast of missiles, which landed about 300 yards away but sounded much closer, said Staff Sgt. Drew Davenport, another member of the team.

Johnson, assigned to an Army aviation unit, huddled with soldiers in an aboveground shelter. With open-air sides and sandbags covering concrete, the bunker was designed to stop smaller rockets — not missiles.

Johnson has no recollection of the first three blasts, and believes it is because the third briefly knocked him and other soldiers in his bunker unconscious. It had landed about 70 yards away.

The fourth exploded about 300 yards away. The fifth and sixth missiles whooshed in about 40 seconds later — one 120 yards away, and the other just 60 feet. Johnson tasted “ammonia-flavored moon dust” on his teeth before he lost consciousness again.

*Rescues amid chaos*

Elsewhere on base, new dangers erupted along with the fires.

During a break in missile volleys, Moody and the rest of his team decided they would be safer relocating. They drove to a spot overlooking the vacant airfield, cut their headlights and waited, Davenport said.

The plan seemed to have promise — briefly. As more missiles streaked through the sky, the airmen braced for impact. One missile exploded about 150 feet away, a blast wave washing over their truck as fire, smoke and debris belched into the night air.

“I didn’t even have time to be scared,” Davenport said. “I was just so pumped full of adrenaline. I remember that mushroom cloud and that bright red, orange color vividly. It was one of the wildest things I’ve ever seen.”

Four missile volleys lasted more than an hour, one coming about every 15 minutes.

During lulls in the barrage, their team and other security forces rushed to check on others on base.

Among those in need of help were two soldiers trapped in a guard tower that was on fire, Moody said. A missile had landed nearby, and they were unable to climb down from their 12-foot-high perch because of the flames.

To help them, the Air Force team backed their truck up close, allowing the soldiers to leap down on top of the vehicle instead of hurtling all the way to the ground, the airmen said.

Elsewhere, a contractor who suffered a serious eye injury needed help.

A medic, Spec. Robert Jones, hustled to pull him to another bunker, Johnson said.

Jones, now a sergeant, was later recognized for his actions with an Army Commendation Medal for valor.

*Wading through disaster*

Even with the attack over for hours, there was little movement on the base at daybreak.

Levander said his crew’s CV-22 flew over the base early that morning. Virtually no one had left their bunkers yet, and hangars were still on fire, he said.

When he and his colleagues returned to their living area, they found soap dispensers blown off walls, lights hanging askew, and electric generators that had stopped.

He and several of his teammates were later recognized with the Distinguished Flying Cross for their efforts.

Soldiers who had survived in bunkers were hesitant to leave them, even after an “all clear” message went out. Some were crying, Johnson said. Some were whimpering. Others were vomiting.

Johnson, a flight surgeon, asked if anyone needed medical attention. No one said yes, prompting the initial report to the Pentagon of zero injuries that later was announced by Trump.

“The fact was, everyone had these symptoms of traumatic brain injury,” Johnson said. “But those symptoms were insignificant compared to what we went through all night.”

Service members began receiving testing afterward. Patients with the most significant symptoms were evacuated from Iraq. Johnson was diagnosed with a brain injury and spent weeks receiving physical therapy, speech therapy, occupational therapy, ocular motor therapy and psychiatric care in Germany.

He eventually returned to the Middle East to complete his deployment.

Davenport and Moody said they did not suffer any injuries. But they wonder how America moved on so quickly.

“It’s kind of disheartening sometimes,” Davenport said. “Some people don’t even know it happened.”



https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-military-iran-missile-attack/2021/01/10/651c3930-4fb0-11eb-b2e8-3339e73d9da2_story.html

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## Khibiny



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348275899494510598

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## Stryker1982

Surenas said:


> *U.S. troops survived a barrage of missiles from Iran. A year later, they’re still coping with it.*
> 
> The U.S. soldiers scrambled from one bunker to the next, stumbling past charred wreckage, 30-foot-wide craters and puddles of diesel fuel. A barrage of ballistic missiles had briefly knocked some of them unconscious, and more were on the way.
> 
> Maj. Alan Johnson struggled to focus after absorbing the monstrous blast waves of several explosions, including one that missed his bunker by about 60 feet, he recalled.
> 
> “I still have anxiety,” Johnson said. “I still have recurring nightmares of incoming — just that sound of those things coming in.”
> 
> The United States stood at the precipice of full-scale war a year ago when Iran launched 16 missiles at U.S. forces in Iraq. Eleven struck Ain al-Asad air base in the western part of the country, another landed outside the northern city of Irbil and four malfunctioned, the military said.
> 
> After months of escalating confrontation, Iranian-backed forces had laid siege to the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad about a week earlier. The Trump administration responded a few days later by launching a drone strike in Baghdad that killed an Iranian general, Qasem Soleimani, a longtime U.S. nemesis.
> 
> Facing the gravest international security crisis of his presidency, Trump suddenly shifted gears. “All is well!” he tweeted within hours of the attack on Jan. 8, 2020.
> 
> A year later, service members who endured the attack described how close the United States and Iran came to greater calamity.
> 
> No U.S. troops were killed despite Iran’s use of weapons that were each about 40 feet long and carrying 1,600 pounds of explosives, more powerful than any weapon launched at Americans in a generation.
> 
> But 110 survivors were ultimately diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries, some requiring long hospitalizations and intensive therapies at the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center outside Washington. The military disclosed the injures days after the strike, saying that an earlier Trump announcement that there were “no casualties” was based on the best information the Pentagon had at the time.
> 
> In reality, 29 services members, including Johnson, were injured seriously enough to receive Purple Hearts in the strike, which the Iranians called Operation Martyr Soleimani.
> 
> The attack left some with feelings of anger and helplessness. Survivors are still pondering a night that increasingly seemed overlooked in a year that went on to include the coronavirus pandemic, a fraught national conversation about race and one of the most contentious presidential elections in American history.
> 
> “I can’t think that anyone has walked away from this without some sort of effects, psychologically or emotionally, because of how traumatic the event was,” said Lt. Col. Johnathan Jordan, the operations officer for an Air Force unit present that night.
> 
> *Preparing for attack*
> 
> Almost immediately after the strike on Soleimani, U.S. troops across the Middle East started preparing for possible Iranian revenge.
> 
> Air Force Tech. Sgt. Samuel Levander, a crew member for a Special Operations aviation squadron temporarily assigned to Al Asad, said civilian employees hired to cook food on base even stopped showing up for work.
> 
> His unit began assessing how many people they could pack into their aircraft, a CV-22, if a quick escape was needed.
> 
> It was Jan. 7 when the severity of the threat became clear: Iran wasn’t planning to attack with rockets, which can kill a couple of people at a time, but with much more powerful missiles launched from miles away across the Iraqi border.
> 
> Jordan said he and his commander, Lt. Col. Staci Coleman, drew up a plan. Half of the 160 airmen they oversaw would leave on a C-130 with Jordan leading them, she decided. The other half would stay with Coleman, hunkering down in bunkers.
> 
> “We were expecting just total devastation at that point,” Jordan recalled.
> 
> Elsewhere on the base, scores of U.S. Special Operations troops prepared to leave on three CV-22 aircraft, each with 24 seats. Levander’s team calculated they could pack in many more, ultimately removing 194 people, according to an award citation first reported by Air Force Times.
> 
> Others had to stay.
> 
> Air Force Senior Master Sgt. Noal Yarnes took cover in a fortified structure, telling the airmen under his supervision to bring their gas masks — just in case. The missiles, he knew, were capable of carrying chemical weapons.
> 
> Johnson, working with soldiers on another part of Al Asad, decided to record a video message for his son, Jack, now 7. He wanted to leave behind some last words, he said, just in case “something bad happened to Dad.”
> 
> *'Incoming, incoming!'*
> 
> The airfield was quiet as midnight arrived — “almost like a ghost town,” said Tech. Sgt. Bryan Moody, part of an Air Force security forces team on duty.
> 
> Moody, a member of the Kentucky Air National Guard, and his colleagues drove around in an mine-resistant truck, making sure the base was secure. Other troops stood watch in guard towers, vigilant in case a ground attack also materialized, while nearly everyone else left on the base sheltered in place.
> 
> The warning rang out over loudspeakers after 1 a.m.: “Incoming! Incoming! Take cover!”
> 
> The first missile exploded at 1:34 a.m. about 100 yards from the mine-resistant vehicle that Moody’s team was driving, casting debris on the hood. The reinforced doors were blown open by the concussive blast of missiles, which landed about 300 yards away but sounded much closer, said Staff Sgt. Drew Davenport, another member of the team.
> 
> Johnson, assigned to an Army aviation unit, huddled with soldiers in an aboveground shelter. With open-air sides and sandbags covering concrete, the bunker was designed to stop smaller rockets — not missiles.
> 
> Johnson has no recollection of the first three blasts, and believes it is because the third briefly knocked him and other soldiers in his bunker unconscious. It had landed about 70 yards away.
> 
> The fourth exploded about 300 yards away. The fifth and sixth missiles whooshed in about 40 seconds later — one 120 yards away, and the other just 60 feet. Johnson tasted “ammonia-flavored moon dust” on his teeth before he lost consciousness again.
> 
> *Rescues amid chaos*
> 
> Elsewhere on base, new dangers erupted along with the fires.
> 
> During a break in missile volleys, Moody and the rest of his team decided they would be safer relocating. They drove to a spot overlooking the vacant airfield, cut their headlights and waited, Davenport said.
> 
> The plan seemed to have promise — briefly. As more missiles streaked through the sky, the airmen braced for impact. One missile exploded about 150 feet away, a blast wave washing over their truck as fire, smoke and debris belched into the night air.
> 
> “I didn’t even have time to be scared,” Davenport said. “I was just so pumped full of adrenaline. I remember that mushroom cloud and that bright red, orange color vividly. It was one of the wildest things I’ve ever seen.”
> 
> Four missile volleys lasted more than an hour, one coming about every 15 minutes.
> 
> During lulls in the barrage, their team and other security forces rushed to check on others on base.
> 
> Among those in need of help were two soldiers trapped in a guard tower that was on fire, Moody said. A missile had landed nearby, and they were unable to climb down from their 12-foot-high perch because of the flames.
> 
> To help them, the Air Force team backed their truck up close, allowing the soldiers to leap down on top of the vehicle instead of hurtling all the way to the ground, the airmen said.
> 
> Elsewhere, a contractor who suffered a serious eye injury needed help.
> 
> A medic, Spec. Robert Jones, hustled to pull him to another bunker, Johnson said.
> 
> Jones, now a sergeant, was later recognized for his actions with an Army Commendation Medal for valor.
> 
> *Wading through disaster*
> 
> Even with the attack over for hours, there was little movement on the base at daybreak.
> 
> Levander said his crew’s CV-22 flew over the base early that morning. Virtually no one had left their bunkers yet, and hangars were still on fire, he said.
> 
> When he and his colleagues returned to their living area, they found soap dispensers blown off walls, lights hanging askew, and electric generators that had stopped.
> 
> He and several of his teammates were later recognized with the Distinguished Flying Cross for their efforts.
> 
> Soldiers who had survived in bunkers were hesitant to leave them, even after an “all clear” message went out. Some were crying, Johnson said. Some were whimpering. Others were vomiting.
> 
> Johnson, a flight surgeon, asked if anyone needed medical attention. No one said yes, prompting the initial report to the Pentagon of zero injuries that later was announced by Trump.
> 
> “The fact was, everyone had these symptoms of traumatic brain injury,” Johnson said. “But those symptoms were insignificant compared to what we went through all night.”
> 
> Service members began receiving testing afterward. Patients with the most significant symptoms were evacuated from Iraq. Johnson was diagnosed with a brain injury and spent weeks receiving physical therapy, speech therapy, occupational therapy, ocular motor therapy and psychiatric care in Germany.
> 
> He eventually returned to the Middle East to complete his deployment.
> 
> Davenport and Moody said they did not suffer any injuries. But they wonder how America moved on so quickly.
> 
> “It’s kind of disheartening sometimes,” Davenport said. “Some people don’t even know it happened.”
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-military-iran-missile-attack/2021/01/10/651c3930-4fb0-11eb-b2e8-3339e73d9da2_story.html



This whole article makes me thing that if American troops came under any sort of pressure, they'd crumble immediately. I've never heard an Iranian war veteran complaining like this.


Surenas said:


> Johnson has no recollection of the first three blasts, and believes it is because the third briefly knocked him and other soldiers in his bunker unconscious. It had landed about 70 yards away.



70 Yards away, in a reinforced bunker, and the missile still knocked the soldiers unconscious? 

Holy God, these weapons are insanely dangerous.

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## Darius77

Stryker1982 said:


> This whole article makes me thing that if American troops came under any sort of pressure, they'd crumble immediately. I've never heard an Iranian war veteran complaining like this.
> 
> 
> 70 Yards away, in a reinforced bunker, and the missile still knocked the soldiers unconscious?
> 
> Holy God, these weapons are insanely dangerous.


Infact they were the smaller and older Iranian missiles with a 200 kilo HE warhead and only intended as a warning. The next time they will cause more than a mere headache for pansy American cry babies.

Fateh-313 ballistic missiles, by contrast, can carry upwards of 1,100 pounds of high explosive. It is unlikely that these shelters could have withstood a direct hit from a ballistic missile. The new generation of Iranian missiles are precise and capable of causing immense damage and casualties.

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## Buddhistforlife

The SiLent crY said:


> Iran's efforts to build long-range ballistic missiles and artillery with a high range can be divided into three periods .
> 
> First period : ( 1977 - 1979 )
> 
> Second period : During the years of war with Iraq ( 1980 - 1988 )
> 
> Third period : since end of war ( since 1988 )
> 
> Since the second period , manufacture of rockets and missiles entered a new phase and designing and producing them in a huge number was performed . ( The experience of 8 year war helped Iran to understand the influence of ballistic missiles and missile technology in War , defense strategy which led Iran to unlimited missile defense strategy ).
> 
> After the war , Iran tried to develop it's missile technology with the help of foreign experts who were driven from their country or were unemployed .
> 
> *Solid Fuel :*
> 
> The main foundation of using this fuel were Oghab and Shahin 2 missiles .
> 
> Iran used this technology systematically for it's field artillery which caused producing Fajr , Naze'at and Zelzal artillery groups . Initial efforts were supported by China's technical assistance and technology .
> Many Assembly and manufacturing plant were built during the years from 1991 to 1992 . Iran with an incredible speed overtook china and was needless of china in producing .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fajr 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fajr 3
> 
> Weight : 45 kg (HE Content) _ 90 kg (Warhead) _ 407 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 5,200 mm (Rocket)
> 
> Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)
> 
> Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)
> 
> Caliber : 240 mm
> 
> Maximum range :43 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fajr 5
> 
> Weight : 90 kg (HE Content) _ 175 kg (Warhead) _ 915 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 6.485 m (Rocket)
> 
> Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)
> 
> Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)
> 
> Caliber : 333 mm
> 
> Effective range : 68&#8211;75 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naze'at 6
> 
> Weight : 130 kg (Warhead) _ 960 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 6.29 m
> 
> Width : 356 mm
> 
> maximum range : 100 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naze'at 10
> 
> Weight : 230 kg (Warhead) _ 1830 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 8.02 m
> 
> Width : 455 mm
> 
> maximum range : 130 km
> 
> *To be continued*


There is nothing called a Long range ballistic missile. Long range missiles are generally MRBM, IRBM and ICBM. Iran already has MRBM and possibly IRBM. By long range missile do you mean ICBM?


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## Raghfarm007

In the article it talks about someone getting "serioues eye injury" due to the missile attack......I thought there were no physical injuries at at????!!!!

The truth will come out slowly....

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## aryobarzan

Raghfarm007 said:


> In the article it talks about someone getting "serioues eye injury" due to the missile attack......I thought there were no physical injuries at at????!!!!
> 
> The truth will come out slowly....


"serious eye injury" due to ballistic missile impact pressure means only one thing...*"HIS EYES POPPED OUT"* ..lol..

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## aryobarzan

This "Galactic Penguin SST" member claims this structure close to Tehran is a Mach 8 Shock-tunnel facility at Iran's Imam Hossein University completed in 2014. Is he right or is he joking..! I checked the coordinates on google map and indeed this stretched building is there..so what is it!!

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## Shawnee

aryobarzan said:


> This "Galactic Penguin SST" member claims this structure close to Tehran is a Mach 8 Shock-tunnel facility at Iran's Imam Hossein University completed in 2014. Is he right or is he joking..! I checked the coordinates on google map and indeed this stretched building is there..so what is it!!
> View attachment 705804







__





Iran Builds Advanced Supersonic Wind Tunnel - Science news - Tasnim News Agency


TEHRAN (Tasnim) - A group of Iranian aeronautical scientists at Imam Hussein University manufactured an advanced supersonic wind tunnel, capable of performing laboratory tests with air flows reaching a velocity of Mach 8.




www.tasnimnews.com






from Ali Javid from 2014






The guy made a voting thread for it and it was contamination rather than information.

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## Shawnee

Regarding the location:
Unless he has intelligence, it is not convincing much.
No supporting power plant.
It is too close to a military university. It should be widely known then.

If gas turbines, then where is the support structures?
The noise would be heard in the supermarket! Tarebaar!!
Really bad noise for the equestrian club!!
Whole minicity can hear that Gas turbine.

My two cents

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## scimitar19

Yep, pure ballistic impact pressure or even sudden drop of pressure will cause serious body injuries. A missile doesn't need to carry a significant warhead to be deadly. The tip can be made of pure kinetic projectile with enough impact velocity on the rocky ground can have deadly outcome. I recall some soldiers who were inside the bunkers described the shock from the missile with a sensation if someone had hit them with the sledge hammer or with the feeling being struck by fast bullet train. 

Traumatic brain injuries from shock could have triggered flashing sensations because nerves inside the brain were damaged due to sudden overpressure. Internal organ hemorrhage even bone fracture. The bigger the impact velocity that is bigger chances of getting some of the symptoms mentioned above.

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> This whole article makes me thing that if American troops came under any sort of pressure, they'd crumble immediately. I've never heard an Iranian war veteran complaining like this.
> 
> 
> 70 Yards away, in a reinforced bunker, and the missile still knocked the soldiers unconscious?
> 
> Holy God, these weapons are insanely dangerous.



@Philosopher @Dariush the Great @Surenas @aryobarzan @Sina-1 

Do you guys remember that one article that was posted back on IMF about the explosive compound Iran uses in its warheads which is supposedly much more destructive in energy yield compared to regular high-explosive filler used in most other munitions?

I believe it was called like "Octogen, or Oxygen 10", something along those lines. This is definitely a real thing too, I know it was posted and was talked about at length back on the old forum. The article/video had an IRGC general talking about the compound as well. 

I'm assuming that the warheads Iran employs can destroy more than their Western equivalents when it comes down to sheer pound-per-pound explosive power barring nuclear related weapons. You also have to factor in raw high speed these munitions are coming down at which amplifies their effect (?).

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## Philosopher

Blue In Green said:


> @Philosopher @Dariush the Great @Surenas @aryobarzan @Sina-1
> 
> Do you guys remember that one article that was posted back on IMF about the explosive compound Iran uses in its warheads which is supposedly much more destructive in energy yield compared to regular high-explosive filler used in most other munitions?
> 
> I believe it was called like "Octogen, or Oxygen 10", something along those lines. This is definitely a real thing too, I know it was posted and was talked about at length back on the old forum. The article/video had an IRGC general talking about the compound as well.
> 
> I'm assuming that the warheads Iran employs can destroy more than their Western equivalents when it comes down to sheer pound-per-pound explosive power barring nuclear related weapons. You also have to factor in raw high speed these munitions are coming down at which amplifies their effect (?).



Yes, that is correct. Iran has been producing Octogen/HMX since at least 2016.

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## Arminkh

Stryker1982 said:


> This whole article makes me thing that if American troops came under any sort of pressure, they'd crumble immediately. I've never heard an Iranian war veteran complaining like this.
> 
> 
> 70 Yards away, in a reinforced bunker, and the missile still knocked the soldiers unconscious?
> 
> Holy God, these weapons are insanely dangerous.


Normal Iranian citizens were going through the same every night during Iraq war! Went to work as if nothing happened next day

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## Stryker1982

Arminkh said:


> Normal Iranian citizens were going through the same every night during Iraq war! Went to work as if nothing happened next day




We don't really take into account the psychological impact of missile strikes.

According to the article, the men were whimering, crying, vomitting, and even when the event was over, many of them were to afriad to leave their bunkers.

This just goes to show, that the missiles are not only deadly but psychological deadly, where troops are unable to perform even the most basic of functions anymore. Seeing what we are seeing from the Ain Al-Assad, it's clear that in the event of a conflict, none of the U.S airbases in the region can even operate effectively as the troops on the ground are mentally paralyzed from shock.

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## Raghfarm007

Arminkh said:


> Normal Iranian citizens were going through the same every night during Iraq war! Went to work as if nothing happened next day




I remember those days well.... when suddenly the TV would send out a red allert warning, and everyone would run to shelters.

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Raghfarm007 said:


> I remember those days well.... when suddenly the TV would send out a red allert warning, and everyone would run to shelters.


 I was a young kid in Tehran during most of the war and the air raid sirens were only for aircraft that radars would pick up. There were no warning for Iraqi Al Hussain (extended range scuds) missiles before one would hit and then the sirens would start. The first such missile that hit Tehran I thought was a car bomb down the street because the ground shook and it was very loud. We went to the roof top to see what was happening and we could see a faint black smoke plume on the other side of the city way off in the distance.

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## Arminkh

Raghfarm007 said:


> I remember those days well.... when suddenly the TV would send out a red allert warning, and everyone would run to shelters.


Yes, sometimes I went up on the roof with my father to see the AA gun trace in the night. We sometimes found shrapnel and I took it to school to compare it with those my friends had found. I probably still have one in my childhood stuff in my parent's house.

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## Aryzin

Stryker1982 said:


> This whole article makes me thing that if American troops came under any sort of pressure, they'd crumble immediately. I've never heard an Iranian war veteran complaining like this.
> 
> 
> 70 Yards away, in a reinforced bunker, and the missile still knocked the soldiers unconscious?
> 
> Holy God, these weapons are insanely dangerous.



LOL I don’t think you realize what the bunkers look like. Unless they were close to the saddam era airplane shelters, most of the bunkers are simple slabs of concrete to protect you from shrapnel. Direct hit by even a mortar and or 107 mm rocket would kill the occupants. Only few inches thick and nothing more. Trust me I know. I been on the receiving end of those 333 mm Iranian rockets and the smaller ones. And 70 yards is very close for a big missile like the ones they fired.

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## Blue In Green

Aryzin said:


> LOL I don’t think you realize what the bunkers look like. Unless they were close to the saddam era airplane shelters, most of the bunkers are simple slabs of concrete to protect you from shrapnel. Direct hit by even a mortar and or 107 mm rocket would kill the occupants. Only few inches thick and nothing more. Trust me I know. I been on the receiving end of those 333 mm Iranian rockets and the smaller ones. And 70 yards is very close for a big missile like the ones they fired.



Receiving end?

U.S. military vet?

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## WudangMaster

Aryzin said:


> Trust me I know. I been on the receiving end of those 333 mm Iranian rockets and the smaller ones.


Most intriguing, do tell us more.


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## Aryzin

Blue In Green said:


> Receiving end?
> 
> U.S. military vet?


Yes I am a veteran. Those big rockets we called water heater and if we got even few hundred meters you could feel it. Very inaccurate but big boom. They tried to bracket us until they could zero in our choppers. Our tents were close to the AH 64s.

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## yavar

Iran IRGC Aerospace Chief Gen. Hajizadeh: U.S Bases missile strike in Iraq

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## Blue In Green

@Philosopher @PeeD @Dariush the Great @Sina-1 @Surenas @TheImmortal @Stryker1982 @raptor22 @N_Al40 @Saleh99 @WudangMaster @Shawnee @Arminkh @aryobarzan @VEVAK @mohsen @Aspen @Xerxes22 @skyshadow @Sineva @yavar (sorry if I missed anyone)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350000150018740225

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349998197364715522
Massive simultaneous firing of precision Quasi-Ballistic Missiles, along with flying wing drone bombers in formation and suicide drones impacting targets!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350001624996077569

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## GWXP

Blue In Green said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350000150018740225
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349998197364715522
> Massive simultaneous firing of precision Quasi-Ballistic Missiles, along with flying wing drone bombers in formation and suicide drones impacting targets!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350001624996077569


Seems like this is second massive ballistic missile launch since 2008.

Imagine Hezbollah launching missiles like this at Israeli powerplant or Iran at US air base or massive Persian Gulf missile launch against US aircraft carrier

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## Blue In Green



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## Sina-1

Blue In Green said:


> @Philosopher @PeeD @Dariush the Great @Sina-1 @Surenas @TheImmortal @Stryker1982 @raptor22 @N_Al40 @Saleh99 @WudangMaster @Shawnee @Arminkh @aryobarzan @VEVAK @mohsen @Aspen @Xerxes22 @skyshadow @Sineva @yavar (sorry if I missed anyone)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350000150018740225
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349998197364715522
> Massive simultaneous firing of precision Quasi-Ballistic Missiles, along with flying wing drone bombers in formation and suicide drones impacting targets!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350001624996077569


Kind of feel sorry for artesh. IRGC comes in the day after and shows why they are a superpower. Look at the impact of the BMs. They hit the SAME spot! Also the UAVs are clearly flying autonomously with some type of AI. There is no way they could fly in such close formation and performing the same maneuvers otherwise. Mind boggling really!

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## Blue In Green

Sina-1 said:


> Kind of feel sorry for artesh. IRGC comes in the day after and shows why they are a superpower. Look at the impact of the BMs. They hit the SAME spot! Also the UAVs are clearly flying autonomously with some type of AI. There is no way they could fly in such close formation and performing the same maneuvers otherwise. Mind boggling really!



Very clear example of Iran's progress in swarm drone technology, it's something that is well within Iran's grasps wand will prove highly deadly against enemy assets!

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## Blue In Green

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350015844907155456
WE'RE NOT DONE YET!!!

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## Raghfarm007

Most impressive 40 seconds of military action on internet:

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## Sina-1

Sina-1 said:


> Also the UAVs are clearly flying autonomously with some type of AI. There is no way they could fly in such close formation and performing the same maneuvers otherwise.


Case in point:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350032045829980160

My GOD! Look at this. Accuracy is one thing. Look at the shockwaves! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350032650799611904

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## Blue In Green

Sina-1 said:


> Case in point:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350032045829980160
> 
> My GOD! Look at this. Accuracy is one thing. Look at the shockwaves!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350032650799611904



Sina....that's 450kg warheads per missile adding up to 2,250kg of explosives or around 5,000lbs!!

Any target within such a vicinity would be completely obliterated with no hope of survival!

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## Messerschmitt

Check out the newest video in Hajizadeh's Telegram channel.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350040245446782979

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## Raghfarm007

Blue In Green said:


> Sina....that's 450kg warheads per missile adding up to 2,250kg of explosives or around 5,000lbs!!
> 
> Any target within such a vicinity would be completely obliterated with no hope of survival!




This statment is true... unless your are talking about American bases..... in which case nothing happens....maybe a few people would get headaches, but thats it.

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## Messerschmitt



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## Blue In Green

Messerschmitt said:


>



This just made my entire day  

Thanks for the post Messerschmitt!

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## Dariush the Great

@Blue In Green we have such awesome missiles but don't use them 😁

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## Blue In Green

Dariush the Great said:


> @Blue In Green we have such awesome missiles but don't use them 😁



lol, well they look and preform as advertised, at-least we have that much to be happy about

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## Dariush the Great

Better quality

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## Hormuz

yavar said:


> Iran IRGC Aerospace Chief Gen. Hajizadeh: U.S Bases missile strike in Iraq



does anyone know where we can find the full interview?

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## Blue In Green

Hormuz said:


> does anyone know where we can find the full interview?



I think they're going to air it sometime later tonight or soon.

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## Dariush the Great

These exercises were kinda large and it seems to be a message for the Americans.. do not mess in the final days.

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## Hormuz

Blue In Green said:


> I think they're going to air it sometime later tonight or soon.



i am really curious what footage he talk about, when gen. Hajizadeh said we will show it to you.


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## Dariush the Great

Hormuz said:


> does anyone know where we can find the full interview?


It is a old interview... longer version has to be somewhere there. saw it before.


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## Blue In Green

Dariush the Great said:


> These exercises were kinda large and it seems to be a message for the Americans.. do not mess in the final days.



Oh, it's almost certain that this was what the exercises were all about. 

Iran has no pressing need to test their weapons in such "cinematic" way other than for displaying their power and to act as a warning, whatever that is worth.

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## Dariush the Great

Blue In Green said:


> Oh, it's almost certain that this was what the exercises were all about.
> 
> Iran has no pressing need to test their weapons in such "cinematic" way other than for displaying their power and to act as a warning, whatever that is worth.


I never saw such a ''beautiful'' display of fireworks by Iran.. seems we can do it like some nations are doing but never needed to.

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## Sina-1

Blue In Green said:


> Sina....that's 450kg warheads per missile adding up to 2,250kg of explosives or around 5,000lbs!!
> 
> Any target within such a vicinity would be completely obliterated with no hope of survival!


It’s like remote controlled meteorite! Weapon of gods. Truly scary stuff!


----------



## Blue In Green

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350056134393131012

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350062257871474688

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350063503047061509


Dariush the Great said:


> I never saw such a ''beautiful'' display of fireworks by Iran.. seems we can do it like some nations are doing but never needed to.



I think Iran will release more footage of the Ayn-Al Assad operation as a last farewell to Trump to humiliate him and his cronies just a little bit more. 

This exercise was Iran warning America one last time that if it came down to blows, Iran isn't playing any games (I guess). So it serves as a deterrent (of sorts) against any last minute U.S./Israeli aggressive moves. 

Hopefully we will see the additional footage, obviously they have it (?).

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## aryobarzan

Guys ..since friends and enemies of Iran in this PDF need to see some of this videos..I suggest if you still have the energy to post some in the "MIddle east" forum..Post it but do not engage any one or you will be banned... if not I will do it when I am back today.

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## yavar

Hormuz said:


> does anyone know where we can find the full interview?


i will upload it

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> i will upload it



Will they show more footage from the Ayn Al-Assad operation?

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## yavar

Blue In Green said:


> Will they show more footage from the Ayn Al-Assad operation?


maybe IRGC stealth UAV images at time of strick and electronic
warfare remember big maybe


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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350071269119586307

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350045944943947778

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## WudangMaster

Dariush the Great said:


> @Blue In Green we have such awesome missiles but don't use them 😁





Blue In Green said:


> lol, well they look and preform as advertised, at-least we have that much to be happy about





Blue In Green said:


> This exercise was Iran warning America one last time that if it came down to blows, Iran isn't playing any games (I guess). So it serves as a deterrent (of sorts) against any last minute U.S./Israeli aggressive moves.



These deterrents are in place to protect the mainland from the "all options are on the table" bulls*** they have been farting out of their mouths for years until about a year or two ago. 
Now Iran taking hits on frontiers outside of the envelope of its most potent systems while trying to entrench itself in half the region does not mean that izrahell or its goyim can get away with attacking the homeland without a direct retaliation. As far as assassinations are concerned, there is an infestation of insects and tumor cells inside the country that need removal by HUMINT along with proper policies banning green card holders, past or present, from holding any power.

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350082100305801219

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## Hormuz

yavar said:


> i will upload it


 
thanks yavar jan


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## aryobarzan

The thread in middle east forum is done....feel free to add to it.

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## Xerxes22

Raghfarm007 said:


> Most impressive 40 seconds of military action on internet:



I behold the glory of the Almighty infront of my eyes. DIVINE POWER. IRAN IS THE DIVINE INSTRUMENT OF THE LORD OF ALL CREATION.


Dariush the Great said:


> Better quality


OMG THIS IS SO OVERWHELMING. THE 1400 yr old promise is coming true in front of my very eyes. IRAN HAS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. THE ALMIGHTY IS WITH IRAN. Hail true divine power !!!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350116640403369986

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350131108600565760

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350127943700402179
Initial Al-Assad footage released.

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## scimitar19

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350116640403369986


Now there is some desktop background image material there!

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## aryobarzan

To all those dear friends that were upset about yesterday Israel attack in Syria. Remember these videos and this day..a mosquito bite does hurt and when done enough times the mosquito gets splattered...that moment is getting closer..

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## Sineva

Heres an interesting TEL,its a hybrid design of the trailer-prime mover TEL types that we usually see used for the liquid and solid fuel ballistics,while the unitary 3&4 axle types were used for the quasi ballistics.





I wonder if this is one of the older tels that was built originally for something like the shahabs thats been modified to fire the dezful.

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## Xerxes22

It will be a dramatic end of January. In America with the presidency , as well as in the middle east with Iran. Lets see wat happens. Things are about to get really interesting.

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## Raghfarm007

Hormuz said:


> does anyone know where we can find the full interview?

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## Dariush the Great

Raghfarm007 said:


>


From the video :

First decision was to strike Taji military base near baghdad, night before the attack IRGC decided to strike Ain al assad base.

IRGC was expecting American counter attack and got ready to hit back again at other bases American bases in the region.. from Jordan till UAE.

400 missiles were readied for initial shock and awe counter attack

IRGC commander also claims that there were Iraqi and American casualties but they were quickly put in bodybags and taken away.

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## Stryker1982

Dariush the Great said:


> From the video :
> 
> First decision was to strike Taji military base near baghdad, night before the attack IRGC decided to strike Ain al assad base.
> 
> IRGC commander also claims that there were Iraqi and American casualties but they were quickly put in bodybags and taken away.



Many things were covered up. Including equipment loses.

A week after the strike, they allowed US new media to enter the base to see the damage. The footage from CNN looks like an accurate strike but not a single piece of equipment was shown destroyed.

I distinctly remember that about 4 or 5 C-130s from Ramstein Air Base were flown to Ain Al-Assad on flight monitoring websites hours after the strike. I was under the impression that this was due to the massive amounts of casualties that needed emergency transport, but It appears more likely that destroyed equipment was loaded onto these planes and taken away.

A Danish soldier, stationed at the base was interviewed by Danish new site who remarked that he saw a AH-64 split in half.

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> Many things were covered up. Including equipment loses.
> 
> A week after the strike, they allowed US new media to enter the base to see the damage. The footage from CNN looks like an accurate strike but not a single piece of equipment was shown destroyed.
> 
> I distinctly remember that about 4 or 5 C-130s from Ramstein Air Base were flown to Ain Al-Assad on flight monitoring websites hours after the strike. I was under the impression that this was due to the massive amounts of casualties that needed emergency transport, but It appears more likely that destroyed equipment was loaded onto these planes and taken away.
> 
> A Danish soldier, stationed at the base was interviewed by Danish new site who remarked that he saw a AH-64 split in half.



Absolutely some level of cover-up was conducted as to not overly embarrass U.S. standing in the world, this was always a reality but we were mocked, made fun of and berated all over PDF last year for espousing such a logical belief. Those flights were indicative of something greater than just minor injuries and petty material damage.......

If Hajizadeh is *this *confident in what he is/was saying, then who are we to completely deny his claims that Americans did have dead soldiers and the damage was much more extensive than previously admitted by the United States. After-all, it is in America's best interest to downplay Iran's power as much as possible so as to not break the "invincibility" facade America has created for itself. Giving even one ounce of credit to Iran will strengthen Iran's standing in the region.

I'll put it this way and I said this last year as well. If one wants to believe that Americans did die during the Ayn-Al Assad operation, go ahead. There is enough logical reasoning and educated conjecture to support such a position. Conversely if one wanted to stick with the story that only some material damage had happened along with "headaches", then that is also fine since that is the official story (America's official story). 

What matters most here more so than anything else is that the Iranians *overtly* attacked U.S. armed forces in-spite of everything (all the rhetoric, all the jingoistic threats, etc.,) and the Americans are the ones who backed off, not Iran. This is something I'm more than willing to give props to Iran for since it's clear who was the party that back-downed here given just how much of a gamble Iran was willing in the name of its own defense/national image.


Dariush the Great said:


> From the video :
> 
> First decision was to strike Taji military base near baghdad, night before the attack IRGC decided to strike Ain al assad base.
> 
> IRGC was expecting American counter attack and got ready to hit back again at other bases American bases in the region.. from Jordan till UAE.
> 
> 400 missiles were readied for initial shock and awe counter attack
> 
> IRGC commander also claims that there were Iraqi and American casualties but they were quickly put in bodybags and taken away.



I think I'll give Iran a pass on this one bro, it truly does seem like Hajizadeh is way too confident about this claim for it just to be an outright lie. He speaks of it as if it's a known reality, not some conspiracy theory or here-say about what happened.

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## Aspen

This drill was really something to see. So glad they got good footage of it, has to be one of the coolest things I have ever seen.

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## Dariush the Great

Blue In Green said:


> Absolutely some level of cover-up was conducted as to not overly embarrass U.S. standing in the world, this was always a reality but we were mocked, made fun of and berated all over PDF last year for espousing such a logical belief. Those flights were indicative of something greater than just minor injuries and petty material damage.......
> 
> If Hajizadeh is *this *confident in what he is/was saying, then who are we to completely deny his claims that Americans did have dead soldiers and the damage was much more extensive than previously admitted by the United States. After-all, it is in America's best interest to downplay Iran's power as much as possible so as to not break the "invincibility" facade America has created for itself. Giving even one ounce of credit to Iran will strengthen Iran's standing in the region.
> 
> I'll put it this way and I said this last year as well. If one wants to believe that Americans did die during the Ayn-Al Assad operation, go ahead. There is enough logical reasoning and educated conjecture to support such a position. Conversely if one wanted to stick with the story that only some material damage had happened along with "headaches", then that is also fine since that is the official story (America's official story).
> 
> What matters most here more so than anything else is that the Iranians *overtly* attacked U.S. armed forces in-spite of everything (all the rhetoric, all the jingoistic threats, etc.,) and the Americans are the ones who backed off, not Iran. This is something I'm more than willing to give props to Iran for since it's clear who was the party that back-downed here given just how much of a gamble Iran was willing in the name of its own defense/national image.
> 
> 
> I think I'll give Iran a pass on this one bro, it truly does seem like Hajizadeh is way too confident about this claim for it just to be an outright lie. He speaks of it as if it's a known reality, not some conspiracy theory or here-say about what happened.


We overly attacked the Americans... but Israel.. IR's inaction towards them is extremely strange.

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## Philosopher

Nothing less expected from shimardan va shirzanan of Sepah. What a incredible display of Iranian might.
Iran's enemies must have gotten PTSD just from seeing these footages.

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## Aspen

Philosopher said:


> Nothing less expected from shimardan va shirzanan of Sepah. What a incredible display of Iranian might.
> Iran's enemies must have gotten PTSD just from seeing these footages.



I pity anyone on the receiving end of these missiles. Somebody should show this video to Netanyahu.

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## Stryker1982

Dariush the Great said:


> We overly attacked the Americans... but Israel.. IR's inaction towards them is extremely strange.



Reality is that we have better deterrence against the US than we do Israel.


Blue In Green said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350056134393131012
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350062257871474688
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350063503047061509
> 
> I think Iran will release more footage of the Ayn-Al Assad operation as a last farewell to Trump to humiliate him and his cronies just a little bit more.
> 
> This exercise was Iran warning America one last time that if it came down to blows, Iran isn't playing any games (I guess). So it serves as a deterrent (of sorts) against any last minute U.S./Israeli aggressive moves.
> 
> Hopefully we will see the additional footage, obviously they have it (?).



PAC-3 cannot beat Dezful. Saudi Arabia and UAE in particular, are at the mercy of the IRGC

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350172548504432642——————————————————

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350148374264209417
This is an interesting point and goes against Ian and Fabian Hinz speculations.

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## WudangMaster

Can anyone clarify the tweets regarding plasma or no plasma?


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## Aspen

WudangMaster said:


> Can anyone clarify the tweets regarding plasma or no plasma?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350063484088823809

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350062576558862336

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## Hormuz

Stryker1982 said:


> Many things were covered up. Including equipment loses.
> 
> A week after the strike, they allowed US new media to enter the base to see the damage. The footage from CNN looks like an accurate strike but not a single piece of equipment was shown destroyed.
> 
> I distinctly remember that about 4 or 5 C-130s from Ramstein Air Base were flown to Ain Al-Assad on flight monitoring websites hours after the strike. I was under the impression that this was due to the massive amounts of casualties that needed emergency transport, but It appears more likely that destroyed equipment was loaded onto these planes and taken away.
> 
> A Danish soldier, stationed at the base was interviewed by Danish new site who remarked that he saw a AH-64 split in half.



there where also reports hour after the strike that 18 soldiers brought to ramstein from ain al assad.
for people who don't know ramstein has the best equipt military hospital outside the u.s. 
you don't bring soldiers with traumatic injuries to ramstein. i am sure they had realy serious injuries. 
if people saw some documentries about the iraq war from 2003 you could see sometimes that they stabalized the serious injuried soldiers in iraq and brought them to ramstein for further treatment.
the soldiers who had light injuries where brought to qatar. 

Hajizadeh said in the first interview after the attacks that they u.s. had casualties. and i am 100% that this was the case. 
how can it be that such an attack there is no material damage (equipments) or and dead? it was only for trump to save his face infront of there people. there was also one picture in one of his interviews wehre he showed the commando station of ain al assad after the attack (you could see the damaged buildings) and Hajizadeh said that they had heavy casualties in that building. i think many people forgot that interview.

watch min 1:50

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## Hack-Hook

Blue In Green said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350015844907155456
> WE'RE NOT DONE YET!!!
> 
> View attachment 707050
> 
> View attachment 707051
> 
> View attachment 707052
> 
> View attachment 707053
> 
> View attachment 707054
> 
> View attachment 707055
> 
> View attachment 707056


who recall the photoshop of Iranian missile launch , they tend to make to mock Iranian missiles

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## mohsen

Dariush the Great said:


> From the video :
> 
> First decision was to strike Taji military base near baghdad, night before the attack IRGC decided to strike Ain al assad base.
> 
> IRGC was expecting American counter attack and got ready to hit back again at other bases American bases in the region.. from Jordan till UAE.
> 
> 400 missiles were readied for initial shock and awe counter attack
> 
> IRGC commander also claims that there were Iraqi and American casualties but they were quickly put in bodybags and taken away.


You don't understand Persian.

He said Iraqis witnessed American corpses being put in the bags, and all Iraqis were kicked of the base before recovering US soldiers beneath the ruins.

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## Sineva

Another pic of the new trailer type TEL,another difference from the unitary TEL is the single hydraulic piston used to elevate the launch rail.

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## Philosopher

*IRGC announces birth of new AI-driven power*

TEHRAN, Jan. 15 (MNA) – A high-ranking IRGC commander says the combination of different capabilities with artificial intelligence has led to the creation of new military power for Iran.
Speaking on the sideline of Payambar-e Azam 15 (The Great Prophet 15) military drill, that kicked off Friday in central Iranian deserts, IRGC Aerospace Force Commander Brigadier General Amirali Hajizadeh pointed to the achievements of the force in the drill. 

The first stage of the drill was a simulator for attacking the enemy’s strengths and defensive lines, he said, adding that this stage was carried out using a combination of drones and missiles.
First, drone units attacked the defensive systems of the hypothetical enemy, and then, ballistic missiles destroyed the main assets and sections of the enemy’s base, the Brigadier General said.
The tactic used in this war game is the result of experiences earned from operations and drills carried out in previous years, he said.

Missiles used in this stage of the drill are a new generation of ballistic missiles equipped with detachable warheads and low RCS, he noted, adding that the time span for preparing these missiles has been decreased by 90%. “These missiles are operational and can be launched in less than five minutes after being established.”

Attacking the enemy from all directions and altitudes, hampering defense of the enemy, infiltrating into the air defense of the enemy using detachable warheads, and using equipment designed and produced by domestic experts are among features of this drill, he said, adding, “By a combination of these new capabilities with drone operation and using the artificial intelligence, a new power was born in IRGC.”









IRGC announces birth of new AI-driven power


TEHRAN, Jan. 15 (MNA) – A high-ranking IRGC commander says the combination of different capabilities with artificial intelligence has led to the creation of new military power for Iran.




en.mehrnews.com

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## Sineva

https://imgur.com/a/NwweMUa

This video is awesome,from the accuracy to the shock waves on the desert floor to the sounds of the detonations and even the noises of pieces of debris raining back down.
Total missile **** money shot 😍

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## Surenas

*Understanding Iran’s Missile Threat to Israel *

As the incoming Biden administration plans to re-engage diplomatically with Iran, it is important for the United States to take into account the concerns of Israel about its security. It is not only Iran’s nuclear ambitions that worry Israeli leaders. It is the combination of Iran’s nuclear program with its precision guided missile project that keeps Israeli military leaders awake at night.

In a chilling speech given just over a year ago, IDF Chief of Staff Lt. General Aviv Kochavi warned Israeli civilians, “It must be known and recognized that in the next war — whether in the north or against Hamas — heavy fire will be directed against our home front. I’m looking people in the eye, and saying, there will be heavy fire. We have to recognize this and we have to prepare for this… We have to prepare for this militarily; the civil hierarchies have to prepare for this; and we have to prepare for this mentally.”

The “heavy fire” that Kochavi referred to is the combined threat of rockets and precision guided missiles from Iran and its terror proxies across the region. Since 2013, while the international community has been focusing on Iran’s nuclear program, Iran has been quietly but relentlessly working to build a parallel threat to the existence of Israel in the form of precision guided missiles in the hands of its terror proxies.

Hezbollah is a prime example of this threat. Given the fact that Iran has already supplied 130,000 rockets to its loyal proxy Hezbollah in Lebanon, Iran’s efforts to upgrade this massive arsenal with precision guided missiles would pose an existential threat to the Jewish state.

Precision guided missiles could threaten both Israel’s civilian and military infrastructure. They not only have longer ranges that could hit any target in Israel, they are also deadly accurate.

In an op-ed by Tom Friedman in the New York Times about Iran’s missile threat he wrote, “We’re talking about Israel’s nuclear plant, airport, ports, power plants, high-tech factories and military base.”

Yet, the threat does not only come from Hezbollah in Lebanon. Iran has been working to surround Israel with a “Ring of Fire” of precision guided missiles across the wider Middle East, especially in Syria and Iraq.

As Friedman wrote in the op-ed, “That is why Israel has been fighting a shadow war with Iran for the past five years to prevent Tehran from reaching its goal of virtually encircling Israel with proxies in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Gaza, all armed with precision guided missiles.”

Dr. Uzi Rubin, one of Israel’s leading experts on the missiles, outlined the extent of the threat in a presentation in April, 2020.

Rubin said that in addition to Hezbollah’s 130,000 rockets, Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza have 20,000-30,000 rockets. As for precision guided missiles, Rubin said that Iran has about 1,000 missiles that can reach Israel, and Iran’s terror proxies in Iraq have 200-300 missiles capable of reaching Israel.

Add to that the unknown factor: the number of precision guided missiles already in the hands of Hezbollah and Iran’s proxies in Syria.

It does not take a leap of the imagination to envision a nightmare scenario where Iran and its proxy forces could try to overwhelm Israel’s vaunted missile defense system with massive salvos of thousands of rockets, precision guided missiles and cruise missiles which are hard to detect.

What would this future war look like?

In an article in The Atlantic titled “The Coming Middle East Conflagration”, Michael Oren, Israel’s former ambassador to Washington, described the scenario.

He wrote, “If rockets fall near Ben-Gurion Airport, as during Israel’s 2014 war with Hamas in Gaza, it will close to international traffic. Israel’s ports, through which a major portion of its food and essential supplies are imported, may also shut down, and its electrical grids could be severed… Millions of Israelis would huddle in bomb shelters. Hundreds of thousands would be evacuated from border areas that terrorists are trying to infiltrate… The hospitals, many of them resorting to underground facilities, would quickly be overwhelmed, even before the skies darken with the toxic fumes of blazing chemical factories and oil refineries.”

This potential disaster explains why Israel is extremely concerned about a return to the terms of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal which did not address Iran’s precision guided missile threat.









Understanding Iran’s Missile Threat to Israel


From the blog of Bob Feferman at The Times of Israel




blogs.timesofisrael.com

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## WudangMaster

Surenas said:


> *Understanding Iran’s Missile Threat to Israel *
> 
> As the incoming Biden administration plans to re-engage diplomatically with Iran, it is important for the United States to take into account the concerns of Israel about its security. It is not only Iran’s nuclear ambitions that worry Israeli leaders. It is the combination of Iran’s nuclear program with its precision guided missile project that keeps Israeli military leaders awake at night.
> 
> In a chilling speech given just over a year ago, IDF Chief of Staff Lt. General Aviv Kochavi warned Israeli civilians, “It must be known and recognized that in the next war — whether in the north or against Hamas — heavy fire will be directed against our home front. I’m looking people in the eye, and saying, there will be heavy fire. We have to recognize this and we have to prepare for this… We have to prepare for this militarily; the civil hierarchies have to prepare for this; and we have to prepare for this mentally.”
> 
> The “heavy fire” that Kochavi referred to is the combined threat of rockets and precision guided missiles from Iran and its terror proxies across the region. Since 2013, while the international community has been focusing on Iran’s nuclear program, Iran has been quietly but relentlessly working to build a parallel threat to the existence of Israel in the form of precision guided missiles in the hands of its terror proxies.
> 
> Hezbollah is a prime example of this threat. Given the fact that Iran has already supplied 130,000 rockets to its loyal proxy Hezbollah in Lebanon, Iran’s efforts to upgrade this massive arsenal with precision guided missiles would pose an existential threat to the Jewish state.
> 
> Precision guided missiles could threaten both Israel’s civilian and military infrastructure. They not only have longer ranges that could hit any target in Israel, they are also deadly accurate.
> 
> In an op-ed by Tom Friedman in the New York Times about Iran’s missile threat he wrote, “We’re talking about Israel’s nuclear plant, airport, ports, power plants, high-tech factories and military base.”
> 
> Yet, the threat does not only come from Hezbollah in Lebanon. Iran has been working to surround Israel with a “Ring of Fire” of precision guided missiles across the wider Middle East, especially in Syria and Iraq.
> 
> As Friedman wrote in the op-ed, “That is why Israel has been fighting a shadow war with Iran for the past five years to prevent Tehran from reaching its goal of virtually encircling Israel with proxies in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Gaza, all armed with precision guided missiles.”
> 
> Dr. Uzi Rubin, one of Israel’s leading experts on the missiles, outlined the extent of the threat in a presentation in April, 2020.
> 
> Rubin said that in addition to Hezbollah’s 130,000 rockets, Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza have 20,000-30,000 rockets. As for precision guided missiles, Rubin said that Iran has about 1,000 missiles that can reach Israel, and Iran’s terror proxies in Iraq have 200-300 missiles capable of reaching Israel.
> 
> Add to that the unknown factor: the number of precision guided missiles already in the hands of Hezbollah and Iran’s proxies in Syria.
> 
> It does not take a leap of the imagination to envision a nightmare scenario where Iran and its proxy forces could try to overwhelm Israel’s vaunted missile defense system with massive salvos of thousands of rockets, precision guided missiles and cruise missiles which are hard to detect.
> 
> What would this future war look like?
> 
> In an article in The Atlantic titled “The Coming Middle East Conflagration”, Michael Oren, Israel’s former ambassador to Washington, described the scenario.
> 
> He wrote, “If rockets fall near Ben-Gurion Airport, as during Israel’s 2014 war with Hamas in Gaza, it will close to international traffic. Israel’s ports, through which a major portion of its food and essential supplies are imported, may also shut down, and its electrical grids could be severed… Millions of Israelis would huddle in bomb shelters. Hundreds of thousands would be evacuated from border areas that terrorists are trying to infiltrate… The hospitals, many of them resorting to underground facilities, would quickly be overwhelmed, even before the skies darken with the toxic fumes of blazing chemical factories and oil refineries.”
> 
> This potential disaster explains why Israel is extremely concerned about a return to the terms of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal which did not address Iran’s precision guided missile threat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding Iran’s Missile Threat to Israel
> 
> 
> From the blog of Bob Feferman at The Times of Israel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blogs.timesofisrael.com


Anyone thinking of negotiating or limiting Iran's missiles in any way should be burned alive and the ashes flushed down the toilet where they belong.

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## Stryker1982

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350342447520501760

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350344267231858688

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350362272930156545

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## Sina-1

Qadr, Emad and Sejjil!

amazing show and incredible performance. 1800km! Im speechless!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350365480473735168

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## yavar



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## Sina-1

This is epic!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350398730210598912
How many sejjils  ?

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## Blue In Green

Wow.......this has been a really good start to 2021!

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## yavar



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## yavar



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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


>



Can someone bullet point that main things Hajizadeh said?

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## yavar

Blue In Green said:


> Can someone bullet point that main things Hajizadeh said?


 nothing in this video


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## VEVAK

Sina-1 said:


> This is epic!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350398730210598912
> How many sejjils  ?




Many so called western analysts where sighting the fact that Iran hadn't publicized the testing of the Sejil in a couple years as some kind of sign that Iran had discontinued the Sejil! LOL! 


Iran past year

1.IRGC Aerospace forces as expected showed an impressive show of force, showed continued achievements and development in Missile, Launch systems & UCAV technology. 

2.Iran's Navy has has showcased and added new capabilities with new vessels added that brought capabilities to Iran's fleet that Iran has never had before. Although they have had many delays and budget issues at least they have remained on the right path when it comes to research & development and I would even rank them among top 2-3 among all Iranian branches in terms of R&D. 

3.Iran's Air Defense forces have tested new radars, SAM's, ECM's, SORAD, AAA & have even managed to develop and test various types of drones and have even given themselves offensive capabilities.

4.IRGC Naval forces gave a peak inside only one of their missile bunkers showcasing a vast stock and over the past year they also showed a good stock of drones and added new vessels to their fleet and added capabilities they never had before. However, vast majority of their stock wasn't developed from their own R&D projects and achievements and unlike Iran's Navy they are rather lacking when it comes to R&D.

5. IRGC Ground Forces have added everything from UAV's & Quad to all types of Infantry support weapons from armored vehicles to unarmored tactical vehicles and have continued to increase their precision and offensive and defensive capabilities 

6.Artesh/Army Ground forces again much like the IRGC ground forces they have not only continued upgrading their own equipment but have also added robotics, AI systems, Artillery systems, tactical vehicles, ISW...

7.IRGC Helo forces (Havanerous) Achievements have been minimal and with the help of HESA they add approximately 4 helo's to the fleet every year however they are at least worked towards adding infrastructure & have an active R&D project 

8.Army Aviation (Helo Forces) Much like the IRGC the achievements have been minimal and mostly focused around overhaul and upgrades. Although PANHA has vast facilities and capabilities however those capabilities are not being utilized. Unfortunately, they are so focused around overhauling what they have that it has blinded them from what they could potentially produce so much so that when the Russians came to check out Iran's capabilities they were rather shocked that given what Iran already has why they weren't already mass producing & exporting 8-10 passenger Helo's 


9.Iran's Air Force - Given all the capabilities they have had at their disposal from facilities to human resources they along Army Aviation are the top 2 worst managed branch of Iran's Military. And it seems since the death of Shahid Sattari they haven't been able to come up with a single good idea. 
And today they are hands down the weak link of Iranian military branches

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## yavar



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350461480123199488

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350461497986658306

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## Surenas

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350485439518486528
Imagine if the missile successfully hit its target near the Nimitz AC. If there ever was a way to demonstrate to the US that their naval assets are increasingly vulnerable to Iran's ballistic missiles, even from that distance...

No way a coincidence.

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## Aspen

Did anyone else just hear the news about Iranian missiles firing into Indian Ocean 100 miles from USS Nimitz?!? It is all over the news here in US.

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## WudangMaster

Surenas said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350485439518486528
> Imagine if the missile successfully hit its target near the Nimitz AC. If there ever was a way to demonstrate to the US that their naval assets are increasingly vulnerable to Iran's ballistic missiles, even from that distance...
> 
> No way a coincidence.


I didn't want to be mention it, but I was wondering why the maritime target strike was not shown to us and maybe the missiles didn't reach it or veered off course or maybe the target was an area rather than an actual object, especially if it was planned to be that close to a US navy carrier group. Maybe they were cluster munitions that rained down rather than a single warhead?


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## Aspen

WudangMaster said:


> I didn't want to be mention it, but I was wondering why the maritime target strike was not shown to us and maybe the missiles didn't reach it or veered off course or maybe the target was an area rather than an actual object, especially if it was planned to be that close to a US navy carrier group. Maybe they were cluster munitions that rained down rather than a single warhead?



I don't think they would have set up a target 1800km away from Iran. Probably they set some coordinates and fired at it. Does anyone have current location tracker of USS Nimitz?

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## WudangMaster

Aspen said:


> I don't they would have set up a target 1800km away from Iran. Probably they set some coordinates and fired at it.


That's what I strongly suspect too. I imagine if they would moved an object 100 miles away from the carrier group, the carrier would have just moved farther away from it. Instead they hit some spot in the water near the carrier group more as a demonstration as an area denial capability.

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## Aspen

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350385646855184386

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350421620037451783These were the 2 ballistic missiles that were fired 1800km into Indian Ocean 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350359553028874240

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## Aspen

Here is a rough map I made:

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## Philosopher

The Americans claimed their satellites detected the launch of these missiles. Therefore it is clear that another arm of Iranian offensive capability that we should expect to see much more in the future is anti-satellite weapons. Iran's enemies rely on their satellite systems to an extreme extent. In case of war, dismantling their satellite capability should occur simultaneously as the targeting of their earth based assets.

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## Aspen

Does anyone have the video footage of the missiles hitting the targets 1800km deep in Indian Ocean that this is referring to?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350475398216179712

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350526423166050304


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## Philosopher



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## Dariush the Great

Dariush the Great said:


> From the video :
> 
> First decision was to strike Taji military base near baghdad, night before the attack IRGC decided to strike Ain al assad base.
> 
> IRGC was expecting American counter attack and got ready to hit back again at other bases American bases in the region.. from Jordan till UAE.
> 
> 400 missiles were readied for initial shock and awe counter attack
> 
> IRGC commander also claims that there were Iraqi and American casualties but they were quickly put in bodybags and taken away.


Most important note that i forgot to add :

Hajizadeh claims IRGC did not give the Iraqis any warning at all.. he claims this was done by the people in the government (Foreign ministry).

What can you expect from Rohani and the other traitors ?

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## Hormuz

Dariush the Great said:


> Most important note that i forgot to add :
> 
> Hajizadeh claims IRGC did not give the Iraqis any warning at all.. he claims this was done by the people in the government (Foreign ministry).
> 
> What can you expect from Rohani and the other traitors ?



i would like to add that it was 30min before the attack and that the goverment didn't say which base they want to attack (possible that they didn't even knew it themself in the foreign ministry)


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## Arian

Dariush the Great said:


> Most important note that i forgot to add :
> 
> Hajizadeh claims IRGC did not give the Iraqis any warning at all.. he claims this was done by the people in the government (Foreign ministry).
> 
> What can you expect from Rohani and the other traitors ?


I don't like the Rouhani administration, but I don't blame them for this one. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs probably had been told to inform the Iraqis and they were just doing their job. They didn't do that on their own.

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## Dariush the Great

Arian said:


> I don't like the Rouhani administration, but I don't blame them for this one. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs probably had been told to inform the Iraqis and they were just doing their job. They didn't do that on their own.


Are you saying the IRGC instructed the FM to warn the Iraqis.. and now they are denying it/ covering up?


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## skyshadow

*did you know that Fateh missile family now can be launched in full ballistic mode ? they are going up straight up, now we can say for a fact that Fateh missiles can be launched from submarines , enjoy *

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## Arian

Dariush the Great said:


> Are you saying the IRGC instructed the FM to warn the Iraqis.. and now they are denying it/ covering up?


I am saying that the whole system, consisting of the IRGC, the leadership, the Council of National Security and others decided to inform the Iraqis of their intention to attack US military bases. So, yes. The IRGC as well knew that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs would contact the Iraqis before the attack and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs only executed it. They didn't make the decision on their own.

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## WudangMaster

skyshadow said:


> *did you know that Fateh missile family now can be launched in full ballistic mode ? they are going up straight up, now we can say for a fact that Fateh missiles can be launched from submarines , enjoy *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 707557


Are there images available from the ground during the launch? That would prove for sure. I think they were still slightly angled during their launch or at least they were when they were shown prior to launch.

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## Stryker1982

Aspen said:


> I don't think they would have set up a target 1800km away from Iran. Probably they set some coordinates and fired at it. Does anyone have current location tracker of USS Nimitz?



What happened is that they set the target close to border area between the Indian ocean and the gulf of Oman, and fired the missiles from deep inside Iran. You can fire near Qom or Semnan desert

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## Stryker1982

WudangMaster said:


> I didn't want to be mention it, but I was wondering why the maritime target strike was not shown to us and maybe the missiles didn't reach it or veered off course or maybe the target was an area rather than an actual object, especially if it was planned to be that close to a US navy carrier group. Maybe they were cluster munitions that rained down rather than a single warhead?




I don't think Iran can strike a specific target 1800km away, but what It can do is fire 20 missiles each with space-released submunition's to cover a solid 20km radius of sea with a rain of small bombs.

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## Arminkh

Surenas said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350485439518486528
> Imagine if the missile successfully hit its target near the Nimitz AC. If there ever was a way to demonstrate to the US that their naval assets are increasingly vulnerable to Iran's ballistic missiles, even from that distance...
> 
> No way a coincidence.


Most probably a lie by Fox News. They don't allow any foreign commercial or naval vessel within hundred miles of where the war game is taking place.

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## skyshadow

WudangMaster said:


> Are there images available from the ground during the launch? That would prove for sure. I think they were still slightly angled during their launch or at least they were when they were shown prior to launch.


look at the dust if the missile had angle the the dust would have looked like the one below not to mention missile nose is up the smoke trail dose not have a angle too, if the missile has an angle the you couldn't see the missile engine too


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## WudangMaster

skyshadow said:


> look at the dust if the missile had angle the the dust would have looked like the one below not to mention missile nose is up the smoke trail dose not have a angle too, if the missile has an angle the you couldn't see the missile engine too
> 
> View attachment 707711





yavar said:


>


At 02:00 it looks like they are being launched at an angle, not to mention the still image.

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## Aramagedon

yavar said:


>


Soon we will gift these missiles to israel. israel kheybar kheybar !

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## VEVAK

Aspen said:


> Here is a rough map I made:
> 
> View attachment 707487




If the U.S. Navy was going to carry out a full on attack against a country as strong as Iran, In terms of firing Tomahawk Cruise Missiles this is what they would likely do














Deploy as many as 4 Fleets with up to15 Ticonderoga Missile Cruisers between them in the initial offensive deployment

1.Indian Ocean - As many as 5 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser among the fleet

2.Red Sea - 2 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser

3.Meditation - 3-6 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser

4.Black Sea - 3-6 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser

Between them and other vessels in their fleet they will likely fire upwards of 2000 cruise missiles in the initial attack after that the U.S. Air Force will likely be flying B-2's back and forth between Poland and Diageo Garcia to deliver heavier ordinances while small teams of US special forces carryout attacks against known/fixed radar, SAM & com's using small drones & UGV and these are just in the initial attack


This is why it's vital for Iran to continue the development and deployment of larger subs (Preferably one with twice the size/mass of the Fateh with double the fire power) produced at much higher rates. And why Iran's navy needs to equip it's self with vessels that are equipped with a good number of LaCM and or capable of deploying swarms of suicide drones.

This is why as soon as the IRGC tested the Simorgh UAV(RQ-170), Iran's Air Force should have gone to the IRGC and begged for a joint project to develop and mass produce a large number of larger bomber version modified to be powered by 2 OwJ engines to start with and plans to build larger version with a higher angled wing and more powerful engines....


The ONLY way to prevent a war is to produce and deploy enough highly capable weapons that no country would ever dare to even think about attacking you.

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## Philosopher

Iran's solid propellant ballistic missile


Fateh-110: From rocket to missile The product of Irans work on heavy battlefield rockets, resulted in first indigenous samples at the end of the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's. This development reached its peak in the late 90's Zelzal-2. Fateh-110, Iran's first solid fuel ballistic missile, used the...




www.aerospace-assess.com






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350799008055308289

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## Philosopher

VEVAK said:


> 9.Iran's Air Force - Given all the capabilities they have had at their disposal from facilities to human resources they along Army Aviation are the top 2 worst managed branch of Iran's Military. And it seems since the death of Shahid Sattari they haven't been able to come up with a single good idea.
> And today they are hands down the weak link of Iranian military branches



Iran's missile and UAV offensive arm are incredible and by themselves can dismantle any nation/adversary within Iran's stated 2000km range. Now one can Imagine if Iran develops an airforce worthy of being seen in the same way (or even similar) as its missile and UAV forces. That would be greatly synergistic and Iran's adversaries would reach a new level of nightmare. It is inevitable that Iran's airforce will develop but it seems to me the airforce needs people to have the passion and mindset to do something great with it. Now this may be just a misperception on my part because I cannot see exactly what is happening in the airforce behind the scenes, but certainly from the surface it would appear the airforce needs a need breed of managers.

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## aryobarzan

Philosopher said:


> Iran's missile and UAV offensive arm are incredible and by themselves can dismantle any nation/adversary within Iran's stated 2000km range. Now one can Imagine if Iran develops an airforce worthy of being seen in the same way (or even similar) as its missile and UAV forces. That would be greatly synergistic and Iran's adversaries would reach a new level of nightmare. It is inevitable that Iran's airforce will develop but it seems to me the airforce needs people to have the passion and mindset to do something great with it. Now this may be just a misperception on my part because I cannot see exactly what is happening in the airforce behind the scenes, but certainly from the surface it would appear the airforce needs a need breed of managers.


I tend to agree ..air force needs new breed ..it is not the technology it is people and to some extent the available funds..lets face it Airforce was never considered a priority as the arm that can defend Iran adequately...But that time has past..Basic deterrence is now in place..so lets hope next decade will be the "*AIRFORCE DECADE".*

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## Philosopher

aryobarzan said:


> I tend to agree ..air force needs new breed ..it is not the technology it is people and to some extent the available funds..lets face it Airforce was never considered a priority as the arm that can defend Iran adequately...But that time has past..Basic deterrence is now in place..so lets hope next decade will be the "*AIRFORCE DECADE".*



There is no technology the great Iranian nation cannot achieve by itself. We have been and are pioneers in science and technology. Just look at Tehrani Moghadam, from where he started and where we are now. Anyone that thinks that there is something special about fighters jets that Iran cannot get overcome is delusional. What you need is the sort of endless passion and relentless pursuits like Dear Moghadam and others like him have shown. Do that then airforce will become another sector like our missiles, UAV, air defence etc. We can discuss over the important role of manned fighter vs UAVs jet in the distant future, however there is no question that airforce does play an important role today and it will do in the foreseeable future. We cannot keep falling behind here. Now the good news is, from what we are seeing things are being done for the airforce, so lets see what happens in the coming years.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350761374536912897

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## Messerschmitt



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## Stryker1982

Philosopher said:


> There is no technology the great Iranian nation cannot achieve by itself. We have been and are pioneers in science and technology. Just look at Tehrani Moghadam, from where he started and where we are now. Anyone that thinks that there is something special about fighters jets that Iran cannot get overcome is delusional. What you need is the sort of endless passion and relentless pursuits like Dear Moghadam and others like him have shown. Do that then airforce will become another sector like our missiles, UAV, air defence etc. We can discuss over the important role of manned fighter vs UAVs jet in the distant future, however there is no question that airforce does play an important role today and it will do in the foreseeable future. We cannot keep falling behind here. Now the good news is, from what we are seeing things are being done for the airforce, so lets see what happens in the coming years.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350761374536912897



Is he suggesting that UAVs would need to assist in guiding the missile to the target. I understand OTH radars can get a general location but for terminal guidance, what can be done about that?


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## Philosopher

Stryker1982 said:


> Is he suggesting that UAVs would need to assist in guiding the missile to the target. I understand OTH radars can get a general location but for terminal guidance, what can be done about that?



UAVs are one potential assets that can be used in the detection and tracking of enemy's targets at sea. Over the horizon radars, satellites etc would be another way. As long as you can detect the target and give updated coordinate to the missile then it should be able to use its own guidance in the terminal stage. Moreover, keep in mind that a missile warhead does not necessarily need to hit the target head on, you can use cluster warheads.

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## Stryker1982

Philosopher said:


> UAVs are one potential assets that can be used in the detection and tracking of enemy's targets at sea. Over the horizon radars, satellites etc would be another way. As long as you can detect the target and give updated coordinate to the missile then it should be able to use its own guidance in the terminal stage. Moreover, keep in mind that a missile warhead does not necessarily need to hit the target head on, you can use cluster warheads.



Using UAVs to update the warhead on guidance seems like it may be vulnerable to jamming?

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## Philosopher

Stryker1982 said:


> Using UAVs to update the warhead on guidance seems like it may be vulnerable to jamming?



Theoretically yes. There is a complex kill chain associated with long anti-ship ballistic systems and this entail vulnerabilities should the chain be disrupted at any point. You can help reduce this by using various systems together such as radar, satellites, UAVs, submarines, ships (like Makran) but you will not remove the vulnerability all together. On this topic, this is why Iran's move to increase its presence in the Indian ocean is important. We have already heard words coming out of Iran relating to using ballistic missiles on ships. Iran's permanent presence in the Indian ocean will therefore increase its capability greatly in this regard - once such assets are present there in adequate numbers.

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## Shawnee

Shawnee said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350172548504432642——————————————————
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350148374264209417
> This is an interesting point and goes against Ian and Fabian Hinz speculations.



I want to correct myself on plasma state seen in 5 Mach of the warhead.

I believe they are both right. Yes.
The ingredients of the alloy are burning in the warhead and also making yellow plasma caused by the ingredients.

Watch this:






In this video microwave provides the heating effect. Expand it to the warhead alloy.
I might be wrong. If you are an expert, feel free to provide an input.


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## Oldman1

Philosopher said:


> Theoretically yes. There is a complex kill chain associated with long anti-ship ballistic systems and this entail vulnerabilities should the chain be disrupted at any point. You can help reduce this by using various systems together such as radar, satellites, UAVs, submarines, ships (like Makran) but you will not remove the vulnerability all together. On this topic, this is why Iran's move to increase its presence in the Indian ocean is important. We have already heard words coming out of Iran relating to using ballistic missiles on ships. Iran's permanent presence in the Indian ocean will therefore increase its capability greatly in this regard - once such assets are present there in adequate numbers.


I mentioned that ability with ballistic missiles on ships. Its a very powerful ability. Mobile bases with ballistic missiles. 










Whats really scary is something like this.


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## Oldman1

Arminkh said:


> Most probably a lie by Fox News. They don't allow any foreign commercial or naval vessel within hundred miles of where the war game is taking place.


You mean 100 miles away from the impact point or the launching? Did Iran warned they are firing missiles from a thousand miles away and all ships need to clear out?


Philosopher said:


> The Americans claimed their satellites detected the launch of these missiles. Therefore it is clear that another arm of Iranian offensive capability that we should expect to see much more in the future is anti-satellite weapons. Iran's enemies rely on their satellite systems to an extreme extent. In case of war, dismantling their satellite capability should occur simultaneously as the targeting of their earth based assets.


So you saying Iran doesn't rely on satellites?


VEVAK said:


> If the U.S. Navy was going to carry out a full on attack against a country as strong as Iran, In terms of firing Tomahawk Cruise Missiles this is what they would likely do
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 707744
> 
> 
> View attachment 707772
> 
> 
> 
> Deploy as many as 4 Fleets with up to15 Ticonderoga Missile Cruisers between them in the initial offensive deployment
> 
> 1.Indian Ocean - As many as 5 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser among the fleet
> 
> 2.Red Sea - 2 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser
> 
> 3.Meditation - 3-6 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser
> 
> 4.Black Sea - 3-6 Ticonderoga Missile Cruiser
> 
> Between them and other vessels in their fleet they will likely fire upwards of 2000 cruise missiles in the initial attack after that the U.S. Air Force will likely be flying B-2's back and forth between Poland and Diageo Garcia to deliver heavier ordinances while small teams of US special forces carryout attacks against known/fixed radar, SAM & com's using small drones & UGV and these are just in the initial attack
> 
> 
> This is why it's vital for Iran to continue the development and deployment of larger subs (Preferably one with twice the size/mass of the Fateh with double the fire power) produced at much higher rates. And why Iran's navy needs to equip it's self with vessels that are equipped with a good number of LaCM and or capable of deploying swarms of suicide drones.
> 
> This is why as soon as the IRGC tested the Simorgh UAV(RQ-170), Iran's Air Force should have gone to the IRGC and begged for a joint project to develop and mass produce a large number of larger bomber version modified to be powered by 2 OwJ engines to start with and plans to build larger version with a higher angled wing and more powerful engines....
> 
> 
> The ONLY way to prevent a war is to produce and deploy enough highly capable weapons that no country would ever dare to even think about attacking you.


Thats alot of Ticos involved. Almost to the point you think the Arleigh Burkes don't exist. There are many factors involved besides just Tomahawks and Ticos. Same for B-2s.


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## VEVAK

Philosopher said:


> Iran's missile and UAV offensive arm are incredible and by themselves can dismantle any nation/adversary within Iran's stated 2000km range. Now one can Imagine if Iran develops an airforce worthy of being seen in the same way (or even similar) as its missile and UAV forces. That would be greatly synergistic and Iran's adversaries would reach a new level of nightmare. It is inevitable that Iran's airforce will develop but it seems to me the airforce needs people to have the passion and mindset to do something great with it. Now this may be just a misperception on my part because I cannot see exactly what is happening in the airforce behind the scenes, but certainly from the surface it would appear the airforce needs a need breed of managers.



Iran's Air Force needs a new breed of managers/officers that don't subscribe to the old way of conventional thinking that fixates them on how an Air Force should behave. 
Truth is it's more of a subservient way of thinking that they have right now than a conventional one! Today more capable Air Forces around the world are funding R&D into developing near space UCAV's and 6th gen fighter while Iran's Air Force can't even come up with an original subsonic Jet powered UCAV design of their own giving all the engines and sub systems tools and facilities they have at their disposal.

It's even worse with PANHA! When the Russians visited PANHA they where shocked at all the tools, facilities & resources PANHA had but wasn't properly utilizing. They are so fixated on constantly overhauling what they already have that they become blinded to the fact that if properly managed they could produce and replace at about the same cost rather than take every thing apart, inspect every millimeter of the aircraft, repair and or replace & then put everything back together.
And the amount of time and resources PANHA puts towards doing that far outweighs 10 tons of alloys and composites you'd be saving even if it cost a little more to produce If PANHA had instead focused on mass production in large quantities using modern tools and components, today they'd be exporting... 


As for the Air Force this 2 decade long obsessions with the F-5 is so absurd that I believe whomever is pushing for this Aircraft is either a full on traitor or an utter Idiot! F-5 may be a good trainer but that's all it will ever be 

The fact that a country like Turkey that just tested it's 1st ever mini jet engine in 2020( 2 decades after Iran) is coming up with a more sophisticated 5th gen mockup design before you(Iran's Air Force) is shameful! 

And purchasing Su-30's is NOT the answer because your putting vast amount of funding towards a fighter that is already outdated. So unless the Russian agree to a full on tech transfer of the Airframe and Engine and agree to at least supply you with AESA radars or high end PESA radar with upgraded software and also agree to give full on access to the software so you can use your own weapons such a purchase would bring more harm than good.

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## Mr Iran Eye

Don't be fooled by Vevak's analysis of Iranian aviation, this is a total intellectual disaster. No intuition, weak analysis and no tactical vision. Iran has come further than one thinks in their fighter planes and one day this fact will be exposed. Yet sometimes they leave clues. The Kowsar remains a very good tactical and air combat support aircraft. The Iranian army will not call on Vevak because he has no sense of war tacticians and he has no overall vision. The hidden facets of the f-4 SM (Super Improved) will also be a big surprise. Vevak let go with your bad analysis


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## Sina-1

@PeeD, I have a particular request. Consider a solid BM where to be vertically launched on an aerial platform on 50k ft altitude with a similarly performance of raad-500.
If based on radar-500, what would you asses the required length of such a missile. Ball park is good enough. Thanks in advance!


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## Ich

Shawnee said:


> I want to correct myself on plasma state seen in 5 Mach of the warhead.
> 
> I believe they are both right. Yes.
> The ingredients of the alloy are burning in the warhead and also making yellow plasma caused by the ingredients.
> 
> Watch this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this video microwave provides the heating effect. Expand it to the warhead alloy.
> I might be wrong. If you are an expert, feel free to provide an input.



Is there a pic with the plasma around the warhead? As far as i know plasma arises if the electrons are seperated from the core. This can be done by different ways where high heat is one of the ways. But i cant imagine that mach 5 will produce enough heat with friction between warhead an air molecules. Also the warhead of the missile is aerodynamic and thus friction is tried to avoid.


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## Shawnee

Ich said:


> Is there a pic with the plasma around the warhead? As far as i know plasma arises if the electrons are seperated from the core. This can be done by different ways where high heat is one of the ways. But i cant imagine that mach 5 will produce enough heat with friction between warhead an air molecules. Also the warhead of the missile is aerodynamic and thus friction is tried to avoid.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350062257871474688
Looks like it starts from 5 Mach for steel warhead. Best results are at 15+ Mach.

Fire itself is plasma state. It is easier to reach that state for carbon than it is for steel.

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## Arminkh

Oldman1 said:


> You mean 100 miles away from the impact point or the launching? Did Iran warned they are firing missiles from a thousand miles away and all ships need to clear out?
> 
> So you saying Iran doesn't rely on satellites?
> 
> Thats alot of Ticos involved. Almost to the point you think the Arleigh Burkes don't exist. There are many factors involved besides just Tomahawks and Ticos. Same for B-2s.


I'm sure they did. They did warn a US sub not to get close to the war game area. And no, 100 miles around the perimeter of the war game area. For a ballistic missile, slightest change in direction would easily translate to than 100 miles in 1000 miles.


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## PeeD

Sina-1 said:


> @PeeD, I have a particular request. Consider a solid BM where to be vertically launched on an aerial platform on 50k ft altitude with a similarly performance of raad-500.
> If based on radar-500, what would you asses the required length of such a missile. Ball park is good enough. Thanks in advance!



Ok I guess you want the Raad-500 range at horizontal air launch.
Difficult to say but 1000km should be reasonable.
That's why I want to see a Simorgh based bomber with such weapons.

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## Sina-1

PeeD said:


> Ok I guess you want the Raad-500 range at horizontal air launch.
> Difficult to say but 1000km should be reasonable.
> That's why I want to see a Simorgh based bomber with such weapons.


No that was not my meaning. Sorry for lousy explanation.

Here is the article that caught my eyes:








That Time a Defense Contractor Wanted to Load Up 747s With ICBMs


It's kind of an insane idea. Or maybe not.




www.popularmechanics.com





Vertical, hot launched ICBMs!





Basically what I am wanting to figure out is what is the minimum length for a BM with a 300-500km range. My guesstimate is basically half the length of Raad-500 should do the trick if launched on 50k ft altitude.


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## PeeD

Sina-1 said:


> No that was not my meaning. Sorry for lousy explanation.
> 
> Here is the article that caught my eyes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Time a Defense Contractor Wanted to Load Up 747s With ICBMs
> 
> 
> It's kind of an insane idea. Or maybe not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.popularmechanics.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vertical, hot launched ICBMs!
> View attachment 708254
> 
> 
> Basically what I am wanting to figure out is what is the minimum length for a BM with a 300-500km range. My guesstimate is basically half the length of Raad-500 should do the trick if launched on 50k ft altitude.



Raad-500 already reached 500km from the ground, it would reach at least 1000km with airlaunch.

However I would not use a high RCS airplane as platform. What would make sense is a long range low RCS platform that is able to create a real benefit, by flying up to 300km close to enemy airborders. A intercontinental weapon at the cost of an SRBM. At least up until the airfields are not destroyed.

The USAF ideas back then of the air launched Minuteman were mainly politically motivated, to remain relevant. Having those B-747 always on patrol, in the air to enable second strike capability. Expensive and inefficient.

Only LO platforms could escape once interceptors come to hunt it down, except for a supersonic platform.

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> Raad-500 already reached 500km from the ground, it would reach at least 1000km with airlaunch.
> 
> However I would not use a high RCS airplane as platform. What would make sense is a long range low RCS platform that is able to create a real benefit, by flying up to 300km close to enemy airborders. A intercontinental weapon at the cost of an SRBM. At least up until the airfields are not destroyed.
> 
> The USAF ideas back then of the air launched Minuteman were mainly politically motivated, to remain relevant. Having those B-747 always on patrol, in the air to enable second strike capability. Expensive and inefficient.
> 
> Only LO platforms could escape once interceptors come to hunt it down, except for a supersonic platform.



I assume that this missile would (greatly) increase the RCS of a low-RCS plane if mounted on its external hard-points, so in theory this missile would need to be stored in a large enough stealth aerial platform that can accommodate it within its internal bay? 

Or would something like a Su-30 (of various makes) be enough to complete the job?


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## VEVAK

Mr Iran Eye said:


> Don't be fooled by Vevak's analysis of Iranian aviation, this is a total intellectual disaster. No intuition, weak analysis and no tactical vision. Iran has come further than one thinks in their fighter planes and one day this fact will be exposed. Yet sometimes they leave clues. The Kowsar remains a very good tactical and air combat support aircraft. The Iranian army will not call on Vevak because he has no sense of war tacticians and he has no overall vision. The hidden facets of the f-4 SM (Super Improved) will also be a big surprise. Vevak let go with your bad analysis



1st off don't confuse Iran's capabilities as a country with the Air Forces short sighted poorly managed R&D projects and utter miss management. 

And I'm sorry to burst your bubble but NO country in their right mind at Iran's level of financial capability goes and fields over +7 Different types of Fighter jets each with 7 complete different type of engines, radar & weapons systems, unless out of utter desperation.

IRIAF
1.MiG-29 (RD-33)
2.F-14 (TF-30)
3.F-4 (J79)
4.Su-24 (Al-21)
5.F-1 (Atar 9k-50)
6.F-5 (J85)
7.J-7 (R-13) 
+ Yasin and other Jet trainers 
IRGC
8.Su-22 (Al-21)

This is an Air force that can do everything but can NOT do anything right! Over the past 2 decades a properly managed Airforce would of had clear goals and plans to cut it's platforms down to 2 Platform + 1 advanced subsonic trainer built around no more than 2 different types of radar/weapon system and no more than 2 different types of engines and a really smart Air Force would have built 4 engine bomber around of those engines and would have stuck with different variants of a single domestically mass produced engine.

The result of fielding so many different fighter variants and engines is that you end up with an Airforce so entangled with maintenance and trying to keep the current fleet flying that they can't do anything else. 

This is why IRGC aerospace forces ends up with UAV's' & UCAV's that the Air force can't even dream about and overhauls upgrades and equips it's Su-22's with PGM's and deploys them while the Air Force is still scratching its head around....

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## Surenas

VEVAK said:


> This is why IRGC aerospace forces ends up with UAV's' & UCAV's that the Air force can't even dream about and overhauls upgrades and equips it's Su-22's with PGM's and deploys them while the Air Force is still scratching its head around....



If the mismanagement is so obvious, why doesn't anyone outside the IRIAF intervene to impose a different doctrine and course? Is it political?

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## PeeD

Blue In Green said:


> I assume that this missile would (greatly) increase the RCS of a low-RCS plane if mounted on its external hard-points, so in theory this missile would need to be stored in a large enough stealth aerial platform that can accommodate it within its internal bay?
> 
> Or would something like a Su-30 (of various makes) be enough to complete the job?



Iran needs range. Su-30 with such a range weapon would hardly be able to fly out to 1000km.

Iran lacks propulsion for the Tu-22M3 like supersonic bomber and hence could only try to build a LO Simorgh Bomber with internal carriage of 2-4 Raad-500 variants.

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## Muhammed45

.


VEVAK said:


> 1st off don't confuse Iran's capabilities as a country with the Air Forces short sighted poorly managed R&D projects and utter miss management.
> 
> And I'm sorry to burst your bubble but NO country in their right mind at Iran's level of financial capability goes and fields over +7 Different types of Fighter jets each with 7 complete different type of engines, radar & weapons systems, unless out of utter desperation.
> 
> IRIAF
> 1.MiG-29 (RD-33)
> 2.F-14 (TF-30)
> 3.F-4 (J79)
> 4.Su-24 (Al-21)
> 5.F-1 (Atar 9k-50)
> 6.F-5 (J85)
> 7.J-7 (R-13)
> + Yasin and other Jet trainers
> IRGC
> 8.Su-22 (Al-21)
> 
> This is an Air force that can do everything but can NOT do anything right! Over the past 2 decades a properly managed Airforce would of had clear goals and plans to cut it's platforms down to 2 Platform + 1 advanced subsonic trainer built around no more than 2 different types of radar/weapon system and no more than 2 different types of engines and a really smart Air Force would have built 4 engine bomber around of those engines and would have stuck with different variants of a single domestically mass produced engine.
> 
> The result of fielding so many different fighter variants and engines is that you end up with an Airforce so entangled with maintenance and trying to keep the current fleet flying that they can't do anything else.
> 
> This is why IRGC aerospace forces ends up with UAV's' & UCAV's that the Air force can't even dream about and overhauls upgrades and equips it's Su-22's with PGM's and deploys them while the Air Force is still scratching its head around....


You are right sir. 

Unfortunately for now, there is no suitable replacement for F14s and Mig29s as air superiority fighter jets.
The only good outcome of overhauling different fighter aircrafts is that your scientists are learning something new in a hardway. 

There was plans to produce a locally made semi heavy turbofan engine in Iran. Guess what Rouhani admin disappointed us all. When the new president comes to Sa'ad Aabad then things could change in favor of local industries. From space Agency to nuclear facilities and civil Sector, from Workers to engineers, we will all breath again. 

IRIAF has to be rebuilt by local fighter jets and a small fleet of newly purchased foreign fighters such as Sukhois in the future.

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## Sina-1

PeeD said:


> Raad-500 already reached 500km from the ground, it would reach at least 1000km with airlaunch.


Yes I know that. My question is this.
If raad-500s length would be caught in half (the length of the actual missile that is) could it still reach the range of 500km if launched from 50k ft altitude?


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## PeeD

Sina-1 said:


> Yes I know that. My question is this.
> If raad-500s length would be caught in half (the length of the actual missile that is) could it still reach the range of 500km if launched from 50k ft altitude?



Generally speaking yes.

Due to very high altitude launch and mach 2+ speed, 500km range Iskander based Kinzhal reaches 2000km.

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## Stryker1982

PeeD said:


> LO Simorgh Bomber with internal carriage of 2-4 Raad-500 variants.



That would be amazing

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## Sineva

Sina-1 said:


> @PeeD, I have a particular request. Consider a solid BM where to be vertically launched on an aerial platform on 50k ft altitude with a similarly performance of raad-500.
> If based on radar-500, what would you asses the required length of such a missile. Ball park is good enough. Thanks in advance!


This is where older heavy weight interceptor platforms like the mig25 could be worth their weight in gold as repurposed aero-ballistic missile launchers.I wonder if the syrians have any left that they`d be willing to part with?.
The only other option would likely be subsonic ex passenger or transport aircraft ie il76,tho these would lack the supersonic speed and altitude advantage of something like the mig25,they would to some degree make up for that by their ability to carry multiple missiles on wing pylons tho.


VEVAK said:


> 1st off don't confuse Iran's capabilities as a country with the Air Forces short sighted poorly managed R&D projects and utter miss management.
> 
> And I'm sorry to burst your bubble but NO country in their right mind at Iran's level of financial capability goes and fields over +7 Different types of Fighter jets each with 7 complete different type of engines, radar & weapons systems, unless out of utter desperation.
> 
> IRIAF
> 1.MiG-29 (RD-33)
> 2.F-14 (TF-30)
> 3.F-4 (J79)
> 4.Su-24 (Al-21)
> 5.F-1 (Atar 9k-50)
> 6.F-5 (J85)
> 7.J-7 (R-13)
> + Yasin and other Jet trainers
> IRGC
> 8.Su-22 (Al-21)
> 
> This is an Air force that can do everything but can NOT do anything right! Over the past 2 decades a properly managed Airforce would of had clear goals and plans to cut it's platforms down to 2 Platform + 1 advanced subsonic trainer built around no more than 2 different types of radar/weapon system and no more than 2 different types of engines and a really smart Air Force would have built 4 engine bomber around of those engines and would have stuck with different variants of a single domestically mass produced engine.
> 
> The result of fielding so many different fighter variants and engines is that you end up with an Airforce so entangled with maintenance and trying to keep the current fleet flying that they can't do anything else.
> 
> This is why IRGC aerospace forces ends up with UAV's' & UCAV's that the Air force can't even dream about and overhauls upgrades and equips it's Su-22's with PGM's and deploys them while the Air Force is still scratching its head around....


Sad but true,the iriaf has not even made the effort to modernise their first generation of indigenous pgms even tho these were designed,built and fielded back in the 90s and are now very long in the tooth being essentially a mixture of 70s,80s and 90s technology.
To put this in perspective,the mock up of the air launched cruise missile thats been displayed for several years now still uses the seeker from a 70s era[!!] maverick.

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## Ich

Shawnee said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350062257871474688
> Looks like it starts from 5 Mach for steel warhead. Best results are at 15+ Mach.
> 
> Fire itself is plasma state. It is easier to reach that state for carbon than it is for steel.



In the pic it is said its mach 8. Not mach 5. And even with mach 8 there is no plasma at the cone. So we can assume that the plasma at the finns is only in a minor minor minor cause of friction, but in major cause of compression of the air. Cause if it would be due to friction, then there would be also plasma at the cone. So there must be some areas at the finns, where flow of the air is hindered, the air gets congested. And this leads to high compression what let the air heat up in this area. Hot enough to change over to plasma.

So as we can see, a warhead with mach 5 in terminal phase do not produce automatically a plasma halo if the aerodynamics of the warhead do not hinder the airflow.

Edit:

Here in missile thread there are pics of iranian missile warheads/cones. Normally the cone shows you the velocity of the warhead in the terminal phase.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351177080705343493

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## Sineva

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351177080705343493


I would recommend that all of the posters here with an interest in the subject read the article
*https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/a-nuisance-to-the-west-a-life-insurance-to-the-islamic-republic-can-biden-do-anything-about-irans-missiles/*

Thank you to @Messerschmitt for posting the link to the above article by fabian hinz as it was a rather refreshing read as for once the author was being both rather honest,not only in his recognition of the capbilities of irans missile forces and the huge technological leaps that the iranian military industrial complex had produced in order to bring about those capabilities,but also being politically pragmatic in recognising that ultimately the west and its gulfie and zionist vassals,absent big changes in their own behaviours of course,may simply have no choice but to learn to live with irans regional missile deterrent,

I think if perhaps the west is able to be just a little smarter[yes,very unlikely I know],or even just a little more pragmatic politically in the mena region then it may yet perhaps manage to avoid certain very unpleasant unintended consequences,such as an iranian irbm or icbm or other weapons and capabilities exceeding irans unofficial 2000km limit,and let us be blunt here as it was always the unconsidered or unintended consequences of its own actions that were always the wests real biggest problem in the region [NOT iran] and sadly the one lesson that it could either never learn or instead just stubbornly insisted on refusing to learn,and indeed both irans missiles and its nuclear program were 2 of these unintended consequences. 
Unfortunately you still have western politicians on both sides of the atlantic who persist in the dangerous fantasy of thinking that they can get what they want from iran through a mixture of political and economic blackmail,and that even after 40 years of the iri they still have great difficulty politically in accepting the iran that is and not the iran that they wish it to be,ie vassalised and subservient.

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## VEVAK

Surenas said:


> If the mismanagement is so obvious, why doesn't anyone outside the IRIAF intervene to impose a different doctrine and course? Is it political?



It's the Air Forces responsibility to manage it's self! Political leadership & Commander n Chief can only advise
& in reality should be the other way around....

Unfortunately, at this point due to so many decades of utter mismanagement I think Iran's political leadership has no choice but to get directly involved and they have 2 choices to choose from: 

1.Convince either the Russians or the Chinese of tech transfer of the Su-30/J-16 airframe & engine and get them to agree to supply Iran with AESA radar or a PESA with an upgraded software package. This allows you to buy time to build the infrastructure and develop the capability to build your own in 10-15 years.

or

2. Start a skunk works type organization using Air Force & IRGC personal and make the development of a heavy fighter platform equipped with a capable Iranian engine a priority. Properly funded with plans to test 2 flying prototypes using existing engines within 2 years.

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## aryobarzan

VEVAK said:


> It's the Air Forces responsibility to manage it's self! Political leadership & Commander n Chief can only advise
> & in reality should be the other way around....
> 
> Unfortunately, at this point due to so many decades of utter mismanagement I think Iran's political leadership has no choice but to get directly involved and they have 2 choices to choose from:
> 
> 1.Convince either the Russians or the Chinese of tech transfer of the Su-30/J-16 airframe & engine and get them to agree to supply Iran with AESA radar or a PESA with an upgraded software package. This allows you to buy time to build the infrastructure and develop the capability to build your own in 10-15 years.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Start a skunk works type organization using Air Force & IRGC personal and make the development of a heavy fighter platform equipped with a capable Iranian engine a priority. Properly funded with plans to test 2 flying prototypes using existing engines within 2 years.


I like Option 2....very doable...keeps the development engine humming..

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> It's the Air Forces responsibility to manage it's self! Political leadership & Commander n Chief can only advise
> & in reality should be the other way around....
> 
> Unfortunately, at this point due to so many decades of utter mismanagement I think Iran's political leadership has no choice but to get directly involved and they have 2 choices to choose from:
> 
> 1.Convince either the Russians or the Chinese of tech transfer of the Su-30/J-16 airframe & engine and get them to agree to supply Iran with AESA radar or a PESA with an upgraded software package. This allows you to buy time to build the infrastructure and develop the capability to build your own in 10-15 years.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Start a skunk works type organization using Air Force & IRGC personal and make the development of a heavy fighter platform equipped with a capable Iranian engine a priority. Properly funded with plans to test 2 flying prototypes using existing engines within 2 years.


and in your calculation and analysis, where you place the small difference in Air force and IRGC funding ?


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> and in your calculation and analysis, where you place the small difference in Air force and IRGC funding ?



What difference did I place in Air Force vs IRGC funding? 

Plus I believe funding to be more of an excuse than a problem. Do you think the Iranian leadership would even have serious discussions with the Russians over the Su-30 if Iran's Air Force had provided them with a viable domestic alternative? Obviously not and obviously not a discussion that would actually get approved.

Whenever the Air Force test a viable domestic alternative meaning a viable flying prototype then and only then they can come and complain about funding it.... And we are NOT talking about an organization that has no resources to speak of! From human resources, advanced tools, facility, software,.... 

Airforce's problem isn't funding! They can't even match the IRGC's UCAV capability despite the fact that they have access to more capable engines, to more relevant tools and facilities and have far more experience on airframes and avionics. So it's not about funding, it's about utter lack of vision and ingenuity + utter miss management and a rather deluded subservient way of thinking!

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> Plus I believe funding to be more of an excuse than a problem. Do you think the Iranian leadership would even have serious discussions with the Russians over the Su-30 if Iran's Air Force had provided them with a viable domestic alternative? Obviously not and obviously not a discussion that would actually get approved.


I believe the Airforce don't want Su-30 and there is no serious talk about that airplane at all


VEVAK said:


> Whenever the Air Force test a viable domestic alternative meaning a viable flying prototype then and only then they can come and complain about funding it.... And we are NOT talking about an organization that has no resources to speak of! From human resources, advanced tools, facility, software,....


for that you must pour money in research and developement and I yet to see that .and honestly before we master the needed technology such how to build the needed alloy how to manage advance methalorgy in industrial scale , how to build a reliable long lasting engine its a mute point working on a heavy airplane


VEVAK said:


> Airforce's problem isn't funding! They can't even match the IRGC's UCAV capability despite the fact that they have access to more capable engines, to more relevant tools and facilities and have far more experience on airframes and avionics.


they lack the necessary funding to do so. by the way its not airforce duty to build the fighter and necessary technology its defense ministry and SAMT ministry duty to do that


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## Darius77

Russia is a not a dependable partner. It stiffed Iran for 10 years over the antiquated S-300 and the Zionists have too much control over Putin as the regular Israeli strikes on Syria have amply demonstrated.

Iran should be seriously looking at Chinese J-10B which is adequate for its localized needs, considering the robust missile capability. Iran is now quite well integrated with Chinese economic and geo-strategic initiatives like the One Belt, so broadening a alliance with PRC should be logical focus. Also strengtheing defence ties with DPRK should be a priority. Iran has enough experience in aircraft overhauling to come up with a medium to heavyweight twin engined fighter in the F-14 class but with 4th gen avionics and weaponry.

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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> I believe the Airforce don't want Su-30 and there is no serious talk about that airplane at all
> 
> for that you must pour money in research and developement and I yet to see that .and honestly before we master the needed technology such how to build the needed alloy how to manage advance methalorgy in industrial scale , how to build a reliable long lasting engine its a mute point working on a heavy airplane
> 
> they lack the necessary funding to do so. by the way its not airforce duty to build the fighter and necessary technology its defense ministry and SAMT ministry duty to do that



NO I believe it's the Air Forces responsibility to use MOD companies to come up with a viable prototype then it would be the MOD's responsibility to take it into production!
The navy did the same and pushed for what they wanted! IRGC did and does the same on many of their weapons! They made it happen and even when the MOD came up short they went at it alone! 

As for the required metallurgy I totally agree we need large industries to get going but the fact is when there isn't a particularly need for a certain strategic alloy other than in the Air force without a large government contract backing it, it be rather impossible to get private funding to fund it. But you don't need to mass produce anything for a prototype!

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> NO I believe it's the Air Forces responsibility to use MOD companies to come up with a viable prototype then it would be the MOD's responsibility to take it into production!
> The navy did the same and pushed for what they wanted! IRGC did and does the same on many of their weapons! They made it happen and even when the MOD came up short they went at it alone!
> 
> As for the required metallurgy I totally agree we need large industries to get going but the fact is when there isn't a particularly need for a certain strategic alloy other than in the Air force without a large government contract backing it, it be rather impossible to get private funding to fund it. But you don't need to mass produce anything for a prototype!


those alloy can be used in building better ship and submarine , they can be used to build better equipment for refineries and our industrial bases


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> those alloy can be used in building better ship and submarine , they can be used to build better equipment for refineries and our industrial bases



Not really! On fighters you substitute strength with weight reduction using Ti and on Jet engines you require alloys that can be air cooled and operate at much higher temperatures and are much lighter.
While on Subs and Ships the preference is strength...!
Sure you can build your artillery and few other equipment out of Ti to reduce weight but it's not a needed on frames(Hull or Deck)
Not saying Ti isn't used just that it's not a necessity and there are other composite that can instead be used on other parts for weight reduction that Iran already has access too... Plus Ti comes in various grades and at at various compositions so it's not as simple as just producing ti... Plus Ti for aircraft need to be compressed and treated and you would require specific tools just for that....

Higher grade Nickle to build your shafts could help on both industries but to build good ships and subs more than anything else you need good steel! And Iran is among the top 10 steel producers in the world so we can work with what we got!


You have to understand that the most expensive part in producing a prototype IS NOT the alloy requirement! The most expensive part for an organization that already has 90% of the tools would be human resources! NOT alloys! And that puts Iran in a great position to conduct detailed and advanced R&D into an advanced fighter prototype (Airframe) and it's true that the airframe is the most expensive part of any fighter but the high cost isn't due to the alloys but due to the human resources (Paychecks). So for Iran's Air Force, lack of funding is nothing but an excuse!

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## aryobarzan

@VEVAK or any one who knows....Few years back Iran bought some (50!)Engines for MIG29's I remember Putin came and the order was signed...Why not buy Engines only for Iran's future heavy fighter from Russia (with legal promise not the reverse engineer) and prototype few airframes with that engine...When Iranian engines of the same power become available.. go to full production..I know this all in reverse order (because you usually build the airframe around the engine) but may be they can do this time to save development time...lets say $5 million per engine and ask for 15 engines..that is $75 million..affordable in my books..lol

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## Hack-Hook

aryobarzan said:


> @VEVAK or any one who knows....Few years back Iran bought some (50!)Engines for MIG29's I remember Putin came and the order was signed...Why not buy Engines only for Iran's future heavy fighter from Russia (with legal promise not the reverse engineer) and prototype few airframes with that engine...When Iranian engines of the same power become available.. go to full production..I know this all in reverse order (because you usually build the airframe around the engine) but may be they can do this time to save development time...lets say $5 million per engine and ask for 15 engines..that is $75 million..affordable in my books..lol


Because we really didnt buy those engines . it was only talk about buying engines.


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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> Not really! On fighters you substitute strength with weight reduction using Ti and on Jet engines you require alloys that can be air cooled and operate at much higher temperatures and are much lighter.
> While on Subs and Ships the preference is strength...!
> Sure you can build your artillery and few other equipment out of Ti to reduce weight but it's not a needed on frames(Hull or Deck)
> Not saying Ti isn't used just that it's not a necessity and there are other composite that can instead be used on other parts for weight reduction that Iran already has access too... Plus Ti comes in various grades and at at various compositions so it's not as simple as just producing ti... Plus Ti for aircraft need to be compressed and treated and you would require specific tools just for that....
> 
> Higher grade Nickle to build your shafts could help on both industries but to build good ships and subs more than anything else you need good steel! And Iran is among the top 10 steel producers in the world so we can work with what we got!
> 
> 
> You have to understand that the most expensive part in producing a prototype IS NOT the alloy requirement! The most expensive part for an organization that already has 90% of the tools would be human resources! NOT alloys! And that puts Iran in a great position to conduct detailed and advanced R&D into an advanced fighter prototype (Airframe) and it's true that the airframe is the most expensive part of any fighter but the high cost isn't due to the alloys but due to the human resources (Paychecks). So for Iran's Air Force, lack of funding is nothing but an excuse!


The fastest military submarine ever built was Alfa class submarine . they were so fast that they could outrun enemy naval vessels while submerged . their prototype speed was more than 80km and the final design had a speed of around 75 km and while they were submerged at 400m and they could reach top speed in just one minute and could reverse 180 degree at full speed in just 40 second.
You might be intrested to knew their hull was made of titanium.
Titanium is not favored because its only light . its light and tough at the same time.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352501717502464002

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## Iskander

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350461480123199488

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## yavar

just bit of history so if people put pieces together they can see better picture

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## Messerschmitt



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## Stryker1982

If their is any administration for IRan to have a war with, the best one would be against Sleepy, weak Biden.


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## Shawnee

Stryker1982 said:


> If their is any administration for IRan to have a war with, the best one would be against Sleepy, weak Biden.



The so called “ sleepy Joe” or “creepy Joe” was Trumpeteer tactic of winning the election and did not work.

Biden has different priorities and prefers well being of US people to ANY war.

No body has described Trump better than Jimmy Kimmel with his incisive lines.

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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> The fastest military submarine ever built was Alfa class submarine . they were so fast that they could outrun enemy naval vessels while submerged . their prototype speed was more than 80km and the final design had a speed of around 75 km and while they were submerged at 400m and they could reach top speed in just one minute and could reverse 180 degree at full speed in just 40 second.
> You might be intrested to knew their hull was made of titanium.
> Titanium is not favored because its only light . its light and tough at the same time.



You sitting 70's era tech and a sub that despite having such an expensive hall and nuclear propulsion hasn't stood the test of time and every single one of them have gotten retired VS lets say the Kilo at approximately the same size and half the speed that's still being produced today.... why do you think that is? There is no reason for us to follow the mistakes of others!

Ti has various applications and aside from having good weight to strength ratio it doesn't rust in none vacuum oxygen rich environment (Corrosion) and it can handle higher temperatures (High Melting point +3000F) but those characteristics are exactly what makes them hard to work with and that's what makes anything made out of ti so expensive and in no industry are they more required than the Aircraft industry....

Again let me reiterate the cost of materials is NOT the reason Iran doesn't have a proper fighter program! Even if you required 100 tons of $100,000 (Per Ton) for your alloy requirement to build just one 10 ton Airframe (Just the frame) your really not looking at that much money for it to prevent you from building new Airframe designs and flying prototypes even on a yearly bases! 

The Airforce's problem more than anything else is mentality, lack of vision and lack of management. And these problems are rather evident in the Air Forces UAV, PGM & Missile designs and variety over the past decade


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## Mr Iran Eye

Do not take Vevak's analyzes seriously, especially on the Air Force, because it is pathetic and far from the truth. Philosopher rightly say not to underestimate the Iranian air force and it is clear that they have gone further than they let us believe. Vevak should go rest, knit slippers and strike a forum pose because his analyzes are very bad.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352975694578524160

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352975659497377794

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## Shawnee

سال 2018 بود که پوتین از تست موشک هایپرسونیک کنیژال با برد 2 هزار کیلومتر و سرعت 10 ماخ خبر داد . کنژال نمونه تغییر یافته موشک اسکندر با برد 500 km هست که برای پرتاب از هواپیما تغییراتی در اون اعمال کردن . اگر موشک کنژال​



که توسط جنگنده میگ 31 حمل میشه ، از ارتفاع 18 km و سرعت 2.5 ماخ پرتاب بشه به بیشینه برد 2 هزار کیلومتر و سرعت 10 ماخ دست پیدا میکنه و به دلیل مسیر پروازی درون جوی و منحنی ش از تور پدافندهای دفاع بالستیک عبور میکنه و مقابله باهاش بسیار سخت خواهد بود . خب اما موشک رعد 500 .



موشک رعد 500 با برد مشابه موشک اسکندر و با وزن کمتر گزینه مناسبی برای انجام نقش بالستیک هواپرتاب ایرانی هست
وزن 1.8 تن

قطر 0.5 متر

سوخت جامد

دقت 30 متر

سرعت برخورد +5 ماخ

کلاهک 400 kg حالا اگه همین موشک رو از ارتفاع 30 km و با سرعت 3 ماخ پرتاب کنیم چه اتفاقی میافته

نیروی هوایی که کاملا مشخصه . همچین پرنده ایی
در اختیار نداریم ولی در مقابل چند صد تیر موشک قدیمی داریم . مدل های اولیه شهاب 3 برای رسیدن به ارتفاع 350 km با یک کلاهک 1 تنی 13 تن سوخت مصرف میکنن . با حذف 6 تن از وزن سوخت و افزودن یک کپسول 6 تنی حامل 3 تیر موشک رعد ، موشک میتونه
به سادگی تا ارتفاع30 km بالا بره و اونجا با یه مانور تغییر زاویه حرکت هر سه موشک از کپسول خارج بشن و موتور هاشون استارت بزنه . در این حالت همان 3 کلاهک که تقریبا 1.2 تن وزن دارند به صورت هایپرسونیک و در برد 2000 km به هدف برخورد می کنند .

با حساب هزینه 50 هزار دلاری هر موشک​

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352387888986644482

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## sha ah

I believe that if Iran ends up buying any fighter aircrafts from China, it will most likely be the J-11 over the J-10. It's a difficult choice to make between China and Russia. 

The Chinese claim that they have now matched the Russians in terms of engine capability, however what they could export in mass to Iran is another matter completely. Chinese are allegedly far ahead of Russians in avionics, radar, etc

On top of a fighter jet, Iran also needs a stealth fighter. The SU-57 or J-20 would both be great choices. Then there's the need for replacing Iran's aging heavy transport planes like the C-130 among others and also helicopters, tank components, ifv, apc technology, etc.

Iran should try to make both sides outbid/compete with each other since it will be a decent sized order that both China and Russia would want, especially Russia with its economic woes. For Russia to lose this contract would really be a blow to Russian prestige. It would actually be a huge coup for the Chinese weapons industry, showing the world that they have truly, finally overtaken Russia.

China is a closer economic ally but Russia is a closer military ally to Iran and might feel smitten if Iran choices China, so there are quite a few variables in this equation.



Darius77 said:


> Russia is a not a dependable partner. It stiffed Iran for 10 years over the antiquated S-300 and the Zionists have too much control over Putin as the regular Israeli strikes on Syria have amply demonstrated.
> 
> Iran should be seriously looking at Chinese J-10B which is adequate for its localized needs, considering the robust missile capability. Iran is now quite well integrated with Chinese economic and geo-strategic initiatives like the One Belt, so broadening a alliance with PRC should be logical focus. Also strengtheing defence ties with DPRK should be a priority. Iran has enough experience in aircraft overhauling to come up with a medium to heavyweight twin engined fighter in the F-14 class but with 4th gen avionics and weaponry.

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> You sitting 70's era tech and a sub that despite having such an expensive hall and nuclear propulsion hasn't stood the test of time and every single one of them have gotten retired VS lets say the Kilo at approximately the same size and half the speed that's still being produced today.... why do you think that is? There is no reason for us to follow the mistakes of others!


Alfa is older and they had problem with maintaining the reactor which was too advance for its time they never hadd problem with hull. Probably the only subb they didnt have oroblem with its hull. By the way alfa is at least a decade older than kilo.


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## Muhammed45

sha ah said:


> I believe that if Iran ends up buying any fighter aircrafts from China, it will most likely be the J-11 over the J-10. It's a difficult choice to make between China and Russia.
> 
> The Chinese claim that they have now matched the Russians in terms of engine capability, however what they could export in mass to Iran is another matter completely. Chinese are allegedly far ahead of Russians in avionics, radar, etc
> 
> On top of a fighter jet, Iran also needs a stealth fighter. The SU-57 or J-20 would both be great choices. Then there's the need for replacing Iran's aging heavy transport planes like the C-130 among others and also helicopters, tank components, ifv, apc technology, etc.
> 
> Iran should try to make both sides outbid/compete with each other since it will be a decent sized order that both China and Russia would want, especially Russia with its economic woes. For Russia to lose this contract would really be a blow to Russian prestige. It would actually be a huge coup for the Chinese weapons industry, showing the world that they have truly, finally overtaken Russia.
> 
> China is a closer economic ally but Russia is a closer military ally to Iran and might feel smitten if Iran choices China, so there are quite a few variables in this equation.


That sounds like a good plan. Let's suppose Iran invests 30-40 billion dollar on acquiring your mentioned list in a period of 5-10 years from now on. It reminds of Indian purchasing of Russian military hardware. Btw, we can invest this amount of cash on local production of a national fighter aircraft, that being said, when you successfuly develop a turbofan engine you can also use the technology in other sectors such as turning the engine to a turboprop/turboshaft/ramjet/scramjet etc for helos, transport and even civilian aircrafts, missiles etc. Once you develop it then you have done the hard part of the job. We are engaged in that sector of R&D, i am sure that we gonna hear good news of a national engine but cannot exactly say when and where. No one can specify a date for it, one thing for sure, when its done even if Russia and China refuse to sell us a capable fighter no one in Iran would give a hoot about.

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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> Alfa is older and they had problem with maintaining the reactor which was too advance for its time they never hadd problem with hull. Probably the only subb they didnt have oroblem with its hull. By the way alfa is at least a decade older than kilo.



Your mistaken. They had a problems with the Hull from the start which they claim to have corrected. At least that's what Wikipedia says.... I honestly don't know much about that sub!
However, it's clear to me that the cost of production, overhaul and maintenance was clearly too burdensome and expensive. 
Just ask yourself why? If the problem was the reactor then why did they stop using Ti hulls? 
And the answer would be the same as the one i gave you. There are cheaper less expensive alternatives to carry out weight reduction. And if the cost benefit analysis of such an over priced hull made sense the Russians would have kept on improving on those type of subs.
So the problem with the use of Ti isn't that it's not strong enough or that you couldn't potentially build a good sub around them, it's that it's too expensive to work with for it to make sense.


And a fiscally conservative military like Iran would have to be insane to take on such a project. At least not until a new method of production is developed.... 
If for the cost of producing one Alfa class hull (Just hull) you could potentially (As none scientific example) produce 20 Kilo class hulls would you still do it?


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## Philosopher

To give an idea of America's aerospace mass production capability.

B-2 spirit:






F-35:






In order to reach such a level, naturally you are required to spend a great effort in building up your underlying mass production teams, infrastructures, supply chains etc. Contrary to what people may think, you certainly do not need to have the $700billions budget of the Americans to produce something like this. Iran is quite unique in the sense that it produces high level products but at vastly cheaper prices relative to the likes of US. For this discussion, Let us assume Iran's defence budget is $20 billion, you cannot do a 1:1 comparison to the US and say US's budget is 35x that of Iran's. Why? because obviously $1 in Iran gets you much more than $1 in the US. So let me assure members that Iran is more than capable of producing mass production line for fighter jets, budget is a factor but not as much as a problem as people think. What is more important is the desire to go down this route and the proper management teams.

I recall the interview with head of IRIAF who said he visited the production facility of Eurofighter Typhoon and he made the statement Iran's production facility are *much* better. I have no doubt Iran is much more advanced in this sector than we perceive. Get the IRGC, Airforce; Vezarate Defah and danesh bonyad companies together with the correct management and they will produce the same sort of impressive capability in airforce that you see in its missiles, UAVs, air defence etc.

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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> Your mistaken. They had a problems with the Hull from the start which they claim to have corrected. At least that's what Wikipedia says.... I honestly don't know much about that sub!
> However, it's clear to me that the cost of production, overhaul and maintenance was clearly too burdensome and expensive.
> Just ask yourself why? If the problem was the reactor then why did they stop using Ti hulls?
> And the answer would be the same as the one i gave you. There are cheaper less expensive alternatives to carry out weight reduction. And if the cost benefit analysis of such an over priced hull made sense the Russians would have kept on improving on those type of subs.
> So the problem with the use of Ti isn't that it's not strong enough or that you couldn't potentially build a good sub around them, it's that it's too expensive to work with for it to make sense.
> 
> 
> And a fiscally conservative military like Iran would have to be insane to take on such a project. At least not until a new method of production is developed....
> If for the cost of producing one Alfa class hull (Just hull) you could potentially (As none scientific example) produce 20 Kilo class hulls would you still do it?


non of their other subs can go as deep as that sub and non are as maneuverable as that sub.
the problem with that sub was its lack of modularity and relying on complex facility when it was at shore.
another problem was at the time for welding titanium parts they had to use special chamber filled with inert gases which is very hard , todays with new welding technologies there is no such need (and if I'm not wrong about 2-3 years go our researchers at least in lab scale showed the same technics for welding Aluminum)
right now we export our titanium as raw material even before turning it into metal . its good opportunities to stop doing that

its the new technique I was talking about


https://cen.acs.org/articles/90/i17/Navy-Construct-First-Titanium-Hull.html


and we are part of the few countries which have the ability to use such technique at least for aluminum , we just need to made some change to our technique to be applicable to titanium.
we managed to design and build cold welding machine in Pardis Technology Park in 1395

another reason that ussr didn't follow that path is because they had limited amount of titanium compared to them we have nine time more titanium only in sistan and baluchistan and the titanium there is of higher concentrate than the mines in Ural area which is the source of USSR titanium


and about titanium price , Aerospace grade titanium is 9-10 time more expensive than steel but marine grade titanium is only about 3 time more expensive


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## Hack-Hook

VEVAK said:


> Just ask yourself why? If the problem was the reactor then why did they stop using Ti hulls?


they didn't they built another one and it was supposed to be the next generation of USSR nuclear submarines but well accident in reactor compartment result in it to sank and after that Cold war ended and Russian Navy fall in disarray 








Soviet submarine K-278 Komsomolets


K-278 Komsomolets was the only Project 685 Plavnik (Плавник, meaning "fin", also known by its NATO reporting name of "Mike"-class) nuclear-powered attack submarine of the Soviet Navy. On August 4, 1984 K-278 reached a record submergence depth of 1,020 meters, in Norwegian Sea. The boat sank in...




military.wikia.org


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## VEVAK

Hack-Hook said:


> non of their other subs can go as deep as that sub and non are as maneuverable as that sub.
> the problem with that sub was its lack of modularity and relying on complex facility when it was at shore.
> another problem was at the time for welding titanium parts they had to use special chamber filled with inert gases which is very hard , todays with new welding technologies there is no such need (and if I'm not wrong about 2-3 years go our researchers at least in lab scale showed the same technics for welding Aluminum)
> right now we export our titanium as raw material even before turning it into metal . its good opportunities to stop doing that
> 
> its the new technique I was talking about
> 
> 
> https://cen.acs.org/articles/90/i17/Navy-Construct-First-Titanium-Hull.html
> 
> 
> and we are part of the few countries which have the ability to use such technique at least for aluminum , we just need to made some change to our technique to be applicable to titanium.
> we managed to design and build cold welding machine in Pardis Technology Park in 1395
> 
> another reason that ussr didn't follow that path is because they had limited amount of titanium compared to them we have nine time more titanium only in sistan and baluchistan and the titanium there is of higher concentrate than the mines in Ural area which is the source of USSR titanium
> 
> 
> and about titanium price , Aerospace grade titanium is 9-10 time more expensive than steel but marine grade titanium is only about 3 time more expensive



Deepest diving Russian sub is the Oscar class then the Seara class that also has Ti hull

As I told you working with Titanium is rather complicated which makes production, overhaul and hull repair costly and at the same time unlike Aircrafts you have alternatives. So it's not ideal for Iran at least not yet and priority needs to be Aircraft.
As for subs, I'd be happy if Iran simply improves on the Kilo for now. FYI German Type 209 at 490meter have higher test depth capability than the Alfa class that apparently maxes out at only 350 meter. 
If the trade off is 20 subs vs 1 for just 100meter and speed of 40kph vs 70kph I'd go with the 20 subs... 


I know very well that Iran has a rather high untapped Ti potential and not just in Sistan Baluchestan that's why it's so frustrating that they haven't utilized it and it's why I keep bringing it up!

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## Messerschmitt

@Surenas shared this article in the 'Iranian Chill Thread':









Saudis Expanding US Military Access to Airfields, Port, to Counter Iran


The year-old initiative is intended to give CENTCOM “more options” in a fight, general reveals.




www.defenseone.com





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353779883084812288

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## Sina-1

Messerschmitt said:


> @Surenas shared this article in the 'Iranian Chill Thread':
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saudis Expanding US Military Access to Airfields, Port, to Counter Iran
> 
> 
> The year-old initiative is intended to give CENTCOM “more options” in a fight, general reveals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseone.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353779883084812288


”Expanding” is one of putting it. Another way is running from the fateh series missiles!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354001455708065794

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## Sina-1

Sina-1 said:


> ”Expanding” is one of putting it. Another way is running from the fateh series missiles!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354001455708065794


Coming soon to the Red Sea. Short range TBM guaranteed

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Sina-1 said:


> Coming soon to the Red Sea. Short range TBM guaranteed


Hajj Qassem should do the trick!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354408851106357249

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354408859566280708

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## Stryker1982

Sina-1 said:


> ”Expanding” is one of putting it. Another way is running from the fateh series missiles!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354001455708065794



They need more time to react, SRBMs are too fast for them to handle, but moving further way is exactly what Iran wants, Iran's goal is to push the US out of the region, pulling back to the Red Sea is essentially giving Iran supremacy in the gulf and expulsion of US forces along with giving Iran more time to react to the US as well.

The conditions now need to be made where the Red Sea is also very unsafe and impossible for them to operate in war conditions.

The Navy is the key to Yemen
Yemen is then the key to this.

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354787253143433218

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354535682857988101

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354858927054344194

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## yavar

Shawnee said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354787253143433218

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## Shawnee

yavar said:


>



Red lines are getting more and more blurred day by day.

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## N_Al40

This does not bode well for our recent successes:

*Top Navy Intel Officer Hopes China Will Keep Dumping Money Into Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles*
*The Navy is strongly hinting that it feels it is well on its way to mitigating the very real threats posed by anti-ship ballistic and cruise missiles.*









Top Navy Intel Officer Hopes China Will Keep Dumping Money Into Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles


The Navy is strongly hinting that it feels it is well on its way to mitigating the very real threats posed by anti-ship ballistic and cruise missiles.




www.thedrive.com

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## White and Green with M/S

N_Al40 said:


> This does not bode well for our recent successes:
> 
> *Top Navy Intel Officer Hopes China Will Keep Dumping Money Into Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles*
> *The Navy is strongly hinting that it feels it is well on its way to mitigating the very real threats posed by anti-ship ballistic and cruise missiles.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top Navy Intel Officer Hopes China Will Keep Dumping Money Into Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles
> 
> 
> The Navy is strongly hinting that it feels it is well on its way to mitigating the very real threats posed by anti-ship ballistic and cruise missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com


Why do you post China related news on Iranian thread bro???

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## N_Al40

White and Green with M/S said:


> Why do you post China related news on Iranian thread bro???



Because though this article references China; Iran and China both use anti-ship ballistic missiles to target US Navy Ships as part of a A2/AD strategy. The very fact that this US Navy officer is implying that they have countermeasures to such systems is important to note for Iran, esp in light of recent jubilations in hitting a target using a BM in an anti-ship role 1800km away

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## White and Green with M/S

N_Al40 said:


> Because though this article references China; Iran and China both use anti-ship ballistic missiles to target US Navy Ships as part of a A2/AD strategy. The very fact that this US Navy officer is implying that they have countermeasures to such systems is important to note for Iran, esp in light of recent jubilations in hitting a target using a BM in an anti-ship role 1800km away


where this article refer Iran


Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Are you retarded?


was i talking to you???

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## aryobarzan

N_Al40 said:


> This does not bode well for our recent successes:
> 
> *Top Navy Intel Officer Hopes China Will Keep Dumping Money Into Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles*
> *The Navy is strongly hinting that it feels it is well on its way to mitigating the very real threats posed by anti-ship ballistic and cruise missiles.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top Navy Intel Officer Hopes China Will Keep Dumping Money Into Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles
> 
> 
> The Navy is strongly hinting that it feels it is well on its way to mitigating the very real threats posed by anti-ship ballistic and cruise missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com


Thanks for posting the article..It does relate to Iran as well. China and Iran the only two countries that actually have this capability..

I read the article: two points...why would US navy tell China hey you are wasting your money on a weapon we are not afraid of...does that make sense...They are afraid and they do not have counter measure.

second point: I copied this from the article "_Right now, though, there's no guarantee that ships tasked with missile defense will be in an optimal position relative to an incoming strike involving ballistic missiles with maneuvering reentry vehicles, let alone ones tipped with hypersonic boost-glide vehicles. Even if they are, they may well be overwhelmed by the total number of incoming threats. A barrage of low-flying high-supersonic or hypersonic cruise missiles could similarly threaten to overwhelm close-in defenses on individual ships"._

Translation...We do not have any thing now and if we had would be easily countered

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## WudangMaster

aryobarzan said:


> Thanks for posting the article..It does relate to Iran as well. China and Iran the only two countries that actually have this capability..


Thank You, one would have to be a brain dead mongoloid imbecile to not see the OBVIOUS connection Iran in this article...

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## IranDefence

Syrian Arab Army tested a new cruise missile on a fast boat !





Iranian Ghadir has a range of 300km

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356308605264424962

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## sanel1412

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356308605264424962


That trajectory apply for qvasi ballistic issiles and hyper sonic glide vehicle, but conventional ballistic missiles trajectory is different,first fly verticaly at very high attlitude, than, depending on range, warhead fly back at certain angle... ICBM has re entry vehicle that moves outside atmosphere, which means once it reach space, it needs very little energy to fly at long distance. Without resistance it just need turn engine or jet vanes for few seconds and it will go as long as you want... than needs turn on engine/jet vanes again only when need path correction or brake... This ICBM trajectory and calcultuon is joke...
For example N. Korea latest ICBM tests were missile lunch to high attlitude, without actualy hit anything on the ground... and they actualy keep record with missile reached 4000km attlitude...but that was only thing they need to do,since that attlitude is far more than required for ICBM missiles capable to git any place on earth.... once re entry vehicle go out of atmosphere...with very small booster it can reach anywhere... since it doesnt need constant energy to move, instead need just small amount of energy to kick on vehicle few times when need path correction.. and thus one small booster if you want to have manueverable warhead capable to change trajectory at terminal stage.... So, basicly, for ICBM conversion, payload and range should not be just converted 1:1, technology is inter connected but positioning and speed up sattalitelite in orbit require few manuevers more than deliver re entry vehicle at certain attlitude...So if you have powerfull propulsion and missile to deliver payload out of atmosphere at attlitude required for ICBM , along with re entry vehicle technology, than it is irelevant 10.000,12.000 or 15k...

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356689502190923780

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## PeeD

sanel1412 said:


> That trajectory apply for qvasi ballistic issiles and hyper sonic glide vehicle, but conventional ballistic missiles trajectory is different,first fly verticaly at very high attlitude, than, depending on range, warhead fly back at certain angle... ICBM has re entry vehicle that moves outside atmosphere, which means once it reach space, it needs very little energy to fly at long distance. Without resistance it just need turn engine or jet vanes for few seconds and it will go as long as you want... than needs turn on engine/jet vanes again only when need path correction or brake... This ICBM trajectory and calcultuon is joke...
> For example N. Korea latest ICBM tests were missile lunch to high attlitude, without actualy hit anything on the ground... and they actualy keep record with missile reached 4000km attlitude...but that was only thing they need to do,since that attlitude is far more than required for ICBM missiles capable to git any place on earth.... once re entry vehicle go out of atmosphere...with very small booster it can reach anywhere... since it doesnt need constant energy to move, instead need just small amount of energy to kick on vehicle few times when need path correction.. and thus one small booster if you want to have manueverable warhead capable to change trajectory at terminal stage.... So, basicly, for ICBM conversion, payload and range should not be just converted 1:1, technology is inter connected but positioning and speed up sattalitelite in orbit require few manuevers more than deliver re entry vehicle at certain attlitude...So if you have powerfull propulsion and missile to deliver payload out of atmosphere at attlitude required for ICBM , along with re entry vehicle technology, than it is irelevant 10.000,12.000 or 15k...



What you describe is a FOBS, its a little different to a pure ballistic missile.

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357049869400178690

Maa migim mushak sukhte jaamed baa ghorte se metr daarim. 

Cheraa baayad 10 saal montazere Soroush 2 baa booster baashim dar haali ke mushake baa 3 metr ghotr daarim.

@PeeD
@SOHEIL

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## PeeD

Zoljanah uses very mature, safe and cheap solid fuel booster technology, proven from serial produced Sejil.

The larger or more advanced boosters are from the IRGC-ASF SSJ. These are much more powerful but also much more secret.

Soroush-2 is again a space agency project with commercial and safety interests, it has absolutely no military use.

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## Philosopher

Iran inaugurated a new solid propellant facility today:

See link for the video.

"Major General Mohamad Bagheri, about the combined solid fuel production center, said: Increasing the range and speed of missiles used in ground operations was one of the armed forces' needs and aim of manufacturing solid fuel.

Produced Solid Fuel will be used in different tactical surface-to-surface missiles, anti-tank, low altitude air defense missiles, among others."









Iran inaugurates two strategic Missiles and Solid Fuel production line


Tehran (IP) - Iran Defence Ministry on Saturday inaugurates the mass production line of advanced shoulder-launched missiles and centres for producing solid fuel for ground forces’ missiles.




iranpress.com

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## Philosopher

The seeker of Iranian anti-radiation ballistic missile, Hormuz:

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Philosopher said:


> The seeker of Iranian anti-radiation ballistic missile, Hormuz:
> 
> View attachment 714132
> 
> View attachment 714133
> 
> View attachment 714134


Hopefully they are not dumb enough to show this publicly without having a newer seeker in service!

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357762991110955010
He says there has been a new attack on Aramco!!?

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## Philosopher

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Hopefully they are not dumb enough to show this publicly without having a newer seeker in service!



Those images are over 8 years old and when they revealed it, that seeker was probably out of date even then. Iran controls what information is released quite strictly so whatever they release is done to send a message.

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## Hack-Hook

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Hopefully they are not dumb enough to show this publicly without having a newer seeker in service!


pretty much every Anti-radiation system more or less look like that

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## Surenas

Shawnee said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357762991110955010
> He says there has been a new attack on Aramco!!?



He's being sarcastic, basically making fun of the rhetoric style of the well-known anti-Iran ideologists.

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## yavar

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Hopefully they are not dumb enough to show this publicly without having a newer seeker in service!



this one was the first type seeker





when we had managed to make the second type seeker which can detect wooden ships and boat they published the first one.
so now think in what stage we are on ?

4th gen ??

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## VEVAK

(3) Iran production line MANPAD & center manufacturing solid fuel for anti-armor, Manpad missile ایران - YouTube

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## WudangMaster

yavar said:


>



One thing about that exercise that I keep wondering about for months now is that thaad radar that was used as target practice during the wargame. Was that just a simple radar dressed up as the thaad radar or was that an Iranian simulacre based on what is known about the radar or was that an actual sample somehow acquired. I would imagine even an Iranian made planar array radar made to resemble the thaad would still be expensive to use as target practice. That leaves either a real one was used of which I am skeptical or a it might have been a simpler, expendable radar dressed up as the thaad radar merely to make a point of anti radar capabilities of the weapon. Also, can HARM home in on PESAs?


VEVAK said:


> (3) Iran production line MANPAD & center manufacturing solid fuel for anti-armor, Manpad missile ایران - YouTube


So were the Misaghs 1 through 3 all imported up till now? I think the first debuted back in 2006.


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Zoljanah uses very mature, safe and cheap solid fuel booster technology, proven from serial produced Sejil.
> 
> The larger or more advanced boosters are from the IRGC-ASF SSJ. These are much more powerful but also much more secret.
> 
> Soroush-2 is again a space agency project with commercial and safety interests, it has absolutely no military use.



Soroush-2 may not be viable for Ballistic Missile but t's military use for delivery of space based assets is of far more value than any ICBM. 

If you can achieve sufficient accuracy you can potentially hid metal composite rods inside a satellite and launch rod at targets like fixed AIDS systems on the ground and cripple an enemies long range Air Defense system or coms or.... by using kinetic energy rather than a warhead. I guarantee you that the U.S. already has such systems deployed and the country that has it's own "Space Force" has no business telling Iran what missiles or sat's we can or can not have. 

And I absolutely agree, Zoljanah may be the most powerful Solid Fuel missile Iran has so far made public but it's far from being the most powerful solid fuel missile Iran has or has ever tested...
Zoljanah boosters are basically comparable to the U.S. minuteman ICBM's, they basically give Iran the ability to produce a viable, comparatively low cost, comparatively transportable ICBMs.

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## VEVAK

WudangMaster said:


> One thing about that exercise that I keep wondering about for months now is that thaad radar that was used as target practice during the wargame. Was that just a simple radar dressed up as the thaad radar or was that an Iranian simulacre based on what is known about the radar or was that an actual sample somehow acquired. I would imagine even an Iranian made planar array radar made to resemble the thaad would still be expensive to use as target practice. That leaves either a real one was used of which I am skeptical or a it might have been a simpler, expendable radar dressed up as the thaad radar merely to make a point of anti radar capabilities of the weapon. Also, can HARM home in on PESAs?
> 
> So were the Misaghs 1 through 3 all imported up till now? I think the first debuted back in 2006.



Absolutely not!! This is just a new production line for newer enhanced variants. 
Misagh 1&2 where exact copy's of Chinese version and likely produced with direct Chinese assistance and more likely than not with Chinese imported tools and parts.
MOD is saying that these new production line of various new variants are 100% Iranian and built using Iranian tools so I am inclined to believe them and this allows Iran to produce at far greater numbers than ever before with far greater level of security. 
It also gives Iran far greater ability to produce various modified versions at far greater numbers.
Iran will no doubt want to produce various versions for different class UAV's, sea based versions, UGV versions,.... all of which would require specific modifications if want max effect and efficiency.

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358918939615653895

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## yavar

Iran Intelligence Minister Hojatoleslam Mohammad Alavi: Test of Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile with range of 1800KM which destroyed moving target in Indian Ocean in IRGC "The Great Prophet 15" exercise

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## Sineva

WudangMaster said:


> So were the Misaghs 1 through 3 all imported up till now? I think the first debuted back in 2006.


The misagh 2 production line was opened back in 2006
http://conflictiran.blogspot.com/2006/04/iran-made-misagh2-missile.html
The misagh 3 is clearly different to its chinese based predecessors,as we can see from the missile itself with its brand new laser proximity fuse,its also possible that the ir seeker is iranian designed as well.So this also clearly proves that iran is indigenously producing the missiles at least.





I also cant seriously imagine iran just importing these things especially when they have vital components with use by dates such as the BCU [Battery-Cooling Unit] which need to be replaced and without which the system is effectively useless.
I did some further checking and found a sipri report that claims that iran was license producing both the misagh 1 and 2.
https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/files/PP/SIPRIPP38.pdf [pg40]

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## yavar

Iran Defense Minister Army Gen. Hatami: Air launch land attack cruise missile 1500+ KM range

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## Sina-1

Awesome and funny thread! Highly recommended read. Click the Link and read the whole thread!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359210733037375488

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## Philosopher

yavar said:


> Iran Defense Minister Army Gen. Hatami: Air launch land attack cruise missile 1500+ KM range



Good news. Presumably it will be based on the Soumar family line.


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## yavar




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## Sina-1

Conclusion: if the plane had parked in the intended spot, near the red carpet, then it would have been a direct hit. This is Houti capability people! Although impressive in every sense, it’s based on 3rd or even 4th tier Iranian technology. Imagine what Iran has in store!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359213889955762177

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## SOHEIL



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## Sineva

Philosopher said:


> Good news. Presumably it will be based on the Soumar family line.


1500km still seems like its derived from the fixed turbojet version,perhaps just the basic hoveizeh cruise missile with a conformal fuel tank fitted.




I`m still hoping that at some point we will see a drop down turbofan soumar in limited production for the airforce and navy.

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## WudangMaster

Sineva said:


> I`m still hoping that at some point we will see a drop down turbofan soumar in limited production for the airforce and navy.


With Jahesh 700, there are many possibilities now.

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## yavar

Sineva said:


> I`m still hoping that at some point we will see a drop down turbofan soumar in limited production for the airforce and navy.


do,nt worry 
it high possibility 






by now i think it has been reversed engineered

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## Sina-1

Fabian hinz does it again. Really nice read. Moral of the story is: embrace the suck and be self reliant, no matter how much you lag behind!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360027139773505536

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## aryobarzan

Sina-1 said:


> Fabian hinz does it again. Really nice read. Moral of the story is: embrace the suck and be self reliant, no matter how much you lag behind!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360027139773505536


_The team was lead by Ali Ghiamtyoun and included several people that had worked on a project to domestically produce TOW ATGMs before._
I took this above part from Fabian text..
For historical records For younger members of this forum".
Few days after new Revolutionary Government was in place in Iran. I was in Shiraz in the facility that TOW ATGM launchers were being calibrated and repaired (only facility in the entire middle east at that time). Full of early computerized (HP mini Computers) test stations and a giant granite slab (Iran used a single C-130 to carry the slab from California to Shiraz) The slab was used to mount all the optics of the launchers both for Tow ground and TOW helicopter for testing. A true state of art facility. (bombed by Iraqi's at the direction of Americans but done on a friday my guess is that since Americans knew and were friends with so many Iranians in that facility they made sure it is bombed on a Friday where no one is working..(.just my guess). I would not go in details but I can tell you the only experience Iran had with any missile were TOWs and possibly Maverick missile. The Idea of "missile" was not that entrenched ..it was all about Aircrafts.....They recognized the importance of it and built up on it.

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## yavar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359368893165363201

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## Shawnee

yavar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359368893165363201



Hinz thinks they are burning waste fuel.

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> do,nt worry
> it high possibility
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by now i think it has been reversed engineered



SS-N-30A (Kalibr 3M-14/3M-14T) ?
How much experience they gained from them? how many years forward it boosted irans missile industry?

I know there were rumours that 4-5 missilies "landed" in Iran, but maybe too dificult to reverse engineere because of possible damages during "accidently landing"

This Cruise missiles for sure dindt landed elegant like the RQ-170 which remained in perfect condition...

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## Sina-1

Story time! History of fateh 110 emergence 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360741334739537921

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360644689750351873

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## VEVAK

Draco.IMF said:


> SS-N-30A (Kalibr 3M-14/3M-14T) ?
> How much experience they gained from them? how many years forward it boosted irans missile industry?
> 
> I know there were rumours that 4-5 missilies "landed" in Iran, but maybe too dificult to reverse engineere because of possible damages during "accidently landing"
> 
> This Cruise missiles for sure dindt landed elegant like the RQ-170 which remained in perfect condition...



Metallurgical analysis of various components of the engine if different then what Iran is already aware of would most definitely take years off R&D

If a new type of classified battery was used could potentially help point Iran in the right direction... 

Depending on what type of warhead was used the analysis of the materials and design could take years off R&D... 

How the airframe is constructed to facilitate a rear booster capable of a vertical launch could take years off R&D for an Iranian VLS system 

so something very simple could save years and millions of dollars off costly trial and error R&D and you wouldn't need it to be in a good condition to do that

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## Sina-1

Welcome to party artesh. IRGC have been producing these types of missiles for 20 years now 😂

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360949611582611456

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## Sina-1

Sina-1 said:


> Welcome to party artesh. IRGC have been producing these types of missiles for 20 years now 😂
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360949611582611456


Honestly this makes me pissed off! Just buy the damn hardware from IRGC or the defense ministry! Why do you reinvent the wheel all the time. They are constantly 10 years behind in UAV and missile tech and they still insist to manufacture their own systems. Even when they are ahead with for example zolfaghar, irgc can come in and dwarf them with karrar. And it took them only a few years to setup limited production plant. then, out of spite, artesh refuses to place order on karrar and is publicly showing interest to buy t90s.
Artesh really needs a visionary leader like Navy in order to innovate and come out of this miserable shape. It’s embarrassing tbh.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984210983411712

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## aryobarzan

Sina-1 said:


> Honestly this makes me pissed off! Just buy the damn hardware from IRGC or the defense ministry! Why do you reinvent the wheel all the time. They are constantly 10 years behind in UAV and missile tech and they still insist to manufacture their own systems. Even when they are ahead with for example zolfaghar, irgc can come in and dwarf them with karrar. And it took them only a few years to setup limited production plant. then, out of spite, artesh refuses to place order on karrar and is publicly showing interest to buy t90s.
> Artesh really needs a visionary leader like Navy in order to innovate and come out of this miserable shape. It’s embarrassing tbh.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984210983411712


You are right on all counts. Competition is good but when one product is done they all should accept that...imagine logistical nightmare and spare parts and tech manuals and training courses for all almost similar hardware on both side.

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## WudangMaster

Sina-1 said:


> Honestly this makes me pissed off! Just buy the damn hardware from IRGC or the defense ministry! Why do you reinvent the wheel all the time. They are constantly 10 years behind in UAV and missile tech and they still insist to manufacture their own systems. Even when they are ahead with for example zolfaghar, irgc can come in and dwarf them with karrar. And it took them only a few years to setup limited production plant. then, out of spite, artesh refuses to place order on karrar and is publicly showing interest to buy t90s.
> Artesh really needs a visionary leader like Navy in order to innovate and come out of this miserable shape. It’s embarrassing tbh.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984210983411712


I was thinking the same and said some thing similar when air force unveiled Kaman a few months back. Also, these missiles are a special weapon and IRGCASF are good enough in deploying and using them, there is no reason for redundancy with Artesh. Additionally, although it is not as likely now as before, Artesh might be a way for foreign infiltration to compromise the missile tech.

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## Mr Iran Eye

The speculation is incredible here on the forum, you know nothing about the improvement of the missile in question in its belly. The forum has been deteriorating for a while here. Do you work in the laboratory? Did you design the missile upgrades? When you know that Iran is improving a lot on artificial intelligence and nanatechnology you should be more careful with your conclusions. Iran still has the ability to surprise and make you lie

We need someone to raise the level on this forum

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Sina-1 said:


> Honestly this makes me pissed off! Just buy the damn hardware from IRGC or the defense ministry! Why do you reinvent the wheel all the time. They are constantly 10 years behind in UAV and missile tech and they still insist to manufacture their own systems. Even when they are ahead with for example zolfaghar, irgc can come in and dwarf them with karrar. And it took them only a few years to setup limited production plant. then, out of spite, artesh refuses to place order on karrar and is publicly showing interest to buy t90s.
> Artesh really needs a visionary leader like Navy in order to innovate and come out of this miserable shape. It’s embarrassing tbh.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984210983411712



Looks like its just a guidance system for the Army's stock of Neze'at-6 and Neze'at-10 unguided artillery rockets. This is a good development in my eyes because they were pretty useless without the guidance.

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## RΛIDEN

Mr Iran Eye said:


> We need someone to raise the level on this forum



Please do the honour and begin.


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## Hack-Hook

Sina-1 said:


> Honestly this makes me pissed off! Just buy the damn hardware from IRGC or the defense ministry! Why do you reinvent the wheel all the time. They are constantly 10 years behind in UAV and missile tech and they still insist to manufacture their own systems. Even when they are ahead with for example zolfaghar, irgc can come in and dwarf them with karrar. And it took them only a few years to setup limited production plant. then, out of spite, artesh refuses to place order on karrar and is publicly showing interest to buy t90s.
> Artesh really needs a visionary leader like Navy in order to innovate and come out of this miserable shape. It’s embarrassing tbh.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984210983411712


Fastest and highest flying drone belong to army.
Our longest range suicide drones which is our second fastest drone also belong to army.

Armyand irgc have simply different doctorine and needs.

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## Hack-Hook

By the way army always operated artillery rockets and their range was about 100km now if they managed to increase the range to 300km and gave them percision strike then what is the complaint. And if the photo is correct the missile looks somehow smaller than Fateh missile that make it plus for it.

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## Sineva

Sina-1 said:


> Honestly this makes me pissed off! Just buy the damn hardware from IRGC or the defense ministry! Why do you reinvent the wheel all the time.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984210983411712


Sadly this situation is not unique just to iran,you see this with a lot of nations militaries where the thought of using another services weapon is anathema,or the service in question just thinks that it can produce a better weapon.
Part of the big problem here is an apparent complete lack of general oversight on weapons programs as there does not appear to be any kind of single unified administrative body in overall charge of general vetting of weapons design and development proposals from all of branches of the military.
Iran can ill afford this sort of wastage of effort ,because the time and resources squandered in pointlessly reinventing the wheel could`ve been better used for much needed things.Probably one of the worst examples of this sort was the air force wasting years of effort to set up its own drone program that ultimately produced only one design of drone and even that still required the help of the irgc affiliated drone manufacturers in order for it to even be viable.Now imagine instead if the airforce had used some of those resources to modernise their small stocks of its own indigenously developed pgms from the 1990s,that would`ve been of far greater value to it and iran than an airforce only drone.

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## WudangMaster

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Looks like its just a guidance system for the Army's stock of Neze'at-6 and Neze'at-10 unguided artillery rockets. This is a good development in my eyes because they were pretty useless without the guidance.
> View attachment 716369


if's an upgrade to older technology already in their possession, that's a totally different matter and very highly encouraged. I was actually worried that they were trying to imitate the Fateh/Zolfaghar line when they could purchase through IRGC. 
So does HZ in Lebanon have these upgrades making even more of their stock also precise or semi precise now?


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## Stryker1982

Just a reminder for those to understand who Iran is dealing with.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360733381894557698
Not targeting those bunkers in Ain Al-Assad was a mistake.

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## Arian

Stryker1982 said:


> Just a reminder for those to understand who Iran is dealing with.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360733381894557698
> Not targeting those bunkers in Ain Al-Assad was a mistake.


@camelguy You're banned now, but it's still worth mentioning you. What do you think about that?


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## Hack-Hook

Arian said:


> @camelguy You're banned now, but it's still worth mentioning you. What do you think about that?


It worth mention that Saddam bombed schools in iran cities and nobody in iraq or rest of the world made any complaint.
By the way dont say its a lie to made disturb relation of two neighbourly countries . one of the school that get bombed was my primary school.

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## Sina-1

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Looks like its just a guidance system for the Army's stock of Neze'at-6 and Neze'at-10 unguided artillery rockets. This is a good development in my eyes because they were pretty useless without the guidance.
> View attachment 716369



I understand your point. This is of course a better case if it is only an upgrade program. But even still, why is Artesh doing these upgrades and not the real experts having 20 years of experience, either IRGC or defence ministry. And this is not the only case. Look at air force UCAV development. Why did they have to develop their own system which is on pair or MAYBE slightly better compared to IRGC and defence ministry systems from 10 years ago. IMO Navy is a role model for artesh. They buy the systems already available for example Simorgh (shahed 129) and tons other system from defence ministry. They then put their focus on hardware no one is producing currently, like the trimaran and destroyer ships.
Artesh and air force are on the other hand doing anything they can in order not to order from available domestic stock, karrar and s129 being two examples. I'm sorry to say but to me it looks like they are behaving this way out of spite.



Sineva said:


> Sadly this situation is not unique just to iran,you see this with a lot of nations militaries where the thought of using another services weapon is anathema,or the service in question just thinks that it can produce a better weapon.
> Part of the big problem here is an apparent complete lack of general oversight on weapons programs as there does not appear to be any kind of single unified administrative body in overall charge of general vetting of weapons design and development proposals from all of branches of the military.
> Iran can ill afford this sort of wastage of effort ,because the time and resources squandered in pointlessly reinventing the wheel could`ve been better used for much needed things.Probably one of the worst examples of this sort was the air force wasting years of effort to set up its own drone program that ultimately produced only one design of drone and even that still required the help of the irgc affiliated drone manufacturers in order for it to even be viable.Now imagine instead if the airforce had used some of those resources to modernise their small stocks of its own indigenously developed pgms from the 1990s,that would`ve been of far greater value to it and iran than an airforce only drone.


Exactly! There is no need to re-invent the wheel. There are tons of new systems that need attention.


Look I understand where artesh and airforce are coming from. They used to be the jewel of our defence and now they are left behind and in bad shape. I understand that there is a lot of frustation, but they need to come in terms with their situation and adapt. The path they are headed currently will only make a bad situation worse. They need to come to grips with reality, radically change their organization, start massive cooperation with other branches and together lay out a plan for a future where they make the best use of their current know how and knowledge.

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## Sineva

Sina-1 said:


> I understand your point. This is of course a better case if it is only an upgrade program. But even still, why is Artesh doing these upgrades and not the real experts having 20 years of experience, either IRGC or defence ministry. And this is not the only case. Look at air force UCAV development. Why did they have to develop their own system which is on pair or MAYBE slightly better compared to IRGC and defence ministry systems from 10 years ago. IMO Navy is a role model for artesh. They buy the systems already available for example Simorgh (shahed 129) and tons other system from defence ministry. They then put their focus on hardware no one is producing currently, like the trimaran and destroyer ships.
> Artesh and air force are on the other hand doing anything they can in order not to order from available domestic stock, karrar and s129 being two examples. I'm sorry to say but to me it looks like they are behaving this way out of spite.
> 
> 
> Exactly! There is no need to re-invent the wheel. There are tons of new systems that need attention.
> 
> 
> Look I understand where artesh and airforce are coming from. They used to be the jewel of our defence and now they are left behind and in bad shape. I understand that there is a lot of frustation, but they need to come in terms with their situation and adapt. The path they are headed currently will only make a bad situation worse. They need to come to grips with reality, radically change their organization, start massive cooperation with other branches and together lay out a plan for a future where they make the best use of their current know how and knowledge.


I literally couldnt have put it any better myself,well said.....  
Now if only those running the airforce would see these posts and take note.

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## Arian

Hack-Hook said:


> By the way dont say its a lie to made disturb relation of two neighbourly countries . one of the school that get bombed was my primary school.


Who said it was a lie? Are you paranoid?


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## Bahram Esfandiari

WudangMaster said:


> if's an upgrade to older technology already in their possession, that's a totally different matter and very highly encouraged. I was actually worried that they were trying to imitate the Fateh/Zolfaghar line when they could purchase through IRGC.
> So does HZ in Lebanon have these upgrades making even more of their stock also precise or semi precise now?



I just noticed that the video is from an unveiling ceremony dating back to the 3rd of October 2019.
Photos: Iran’s Army unveils new tactical armored vehicles, smart robots (theiranproject.com)








You can even see the Labek-1 missile name written on the poster. I don't know why Reza_mad's twitter account is passing this video off as though it was a resent event.

In regards to Hezbollah, I have heard that they are following a similar program of building new guidance sections for their vast stocks of pre-existing unguided rockets in order to give them a precision strike capability without causing a lot of financial burden .

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## aryobarzan

Good find "Baharm"...looking at those yellow carrier trays reminded me of a story (that is what old men become ..story tellers..lol)..

Back during the shah ..I was working in shiraz and with me was a very nice older American from Hughes aircraft..We had an Iranian executive who was very Tough, very educated and very patriotic so he would force the Americans to justify every dollar they charge Iran for various military hardware..so me and this fellow were walking and we came across a single tray similar to the ones above...He turned to me and said .."you know your Iranian boss is so hard on us americans..so we in turn recover our money by charging Iran for stupid items like this tray..we charged you guys $25000 for each tray and you are getting 5 of them...!!! all we needed was one!
Those yellow trays above look fabulous..lol

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## Bahram Esfandiari

aryobarzan said:


> Good find "Baharm"...looking at those yellow carrier trays reminded me of a story (that is what old men become ..story tellers..lol)..
> 
> Back during the shah ..I was working in shiraz and with me was a very nice older American from Hughes aircraft..We had an Iranian executive who was very Tough, very educated and very patriotic so he would force the Americans to justify every dollar they charge Iran for various military hardware..so me and this fellow were walking and we came across a single tray similar to the ones above...He turned to me and said .."you know your Iranian boss is so hard on us americans..so we in turn recover our money by charging Iran for stupid items like this tray..we charged you guys $25000 for each tray and you are getting 5 of them...!!! all we needed was one!
> Those yellow trays above look fabulous..lol



Thank you for sharing your story. It just goes to show how the U.S takes its client states for a ride and how Iran is able to achieve so much on its own despite having one of the lowest defense spending budgets in the region.


Stryker1982 said:


> Just a reminder for those to understand who Iran is dealing with.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360733381894557698
> Not targeting those bunkers in Ain Al-Assad was a mistake.


 
Just goes to show what absolute pieces of Sh!t are the self professed "Persians" who would love nothing more for the United States to carry out such actions against Iran!

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## WudangMaster

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Just goes to show what absolute pieces of Sh!t are the self professed "Persians" who would love nothing more for the United States to carry out such actions against Iran!


It's bad enough for the roaches outside of Iran, but the worse are the lowlife cannibal insects in the country who freely want these things in their online posts and get away with it! If you are going to arrest shirtless parkour guys posing with their women, then please go after the dirty roaches who openly pray for the country's destruction in online posts or any public venue.

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## MTN1917

Sina-1 said:


> Honestly this makes me pissed off! Just buy the damn hardware from IRGC or the defense ministry! Why do you reinvent the wheel all the time. They are constantly 10 years behind in UAV and missile tech and they still insist to manufacture their own systems. Even when they are ahead with for example zolfaghar, irgc can come in and dwarf them with karrar. And it took them only a few years to setup limited production plant. then, out of spite, artesh refuses to place order on karrar and is publicly showing interest to buy t90s.
> Artesh really needs a visionary leader like Navy in order to innovate and come out of this miserable shape. It’s embarrassing tbh.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984210983411712


Labayk-1 missile(upgrade of Nazeat-6,10) has entered service two years ago, as IRIGF commander has announced these projects are developed with the assistance of IRGC ASF and MOD.

https://www.hamshahrionline.ir/news/257520/نیروی-زمینی-ارتش-۲-فروند-موشک-جدید-آزمایش-کرد

What is new here is the 300km ballistic missile for IRIGF which is most probabely the Fateh-110 which was previously mentioned by Brigadier Pourdastan.

https://defapress.ir/fa/news/11014/افزایش-برد-موشک‌های-ارتش-فاتح-۱۱۰-در-اولویت-افزایش-برد

Also Karrar is not an IRGC project, it is developed by MOD.

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## Stryker1982

Worlds first Bunker-Busting MaRVs for hardened aircraft shelters when?

Or is that not necessary,


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## Stryker1982

Israel and US begin Arrow-4 development


Israel and the United States have begun developing the Arrow-4 missile defense system that includes next-generation interceptors and will replace the Arrow-2 over the next decades.




www.defensenews.com










US & Israel working on Arrow-4 knowing they have fallen deeply behind the latest generation of Iranian missiles (Dezful, Haj Qasem, Raad-500 etc...)

@PeeD Interested to see what you think about their latest designs.

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## PeeD

Stryker1982 said:


> Israel and US begin Arrow-4 development
> 
> 
> Israel and the United States have begun developing the Arrow-4 missile defense system that includes next-generation interceptors and will replace the Arrow-2 over the next decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 717540
> 
> 
> US & Israel working on Arrow-4 knowing they have fallen deeply behind the latest generation of Iranian missiles (Dezful, Haj Qasem, Raad-500 etc...)
> 
> @PeeD Interested to see what you think about their latest designs.



Seems a little desperate move to counter Iranian gliding MaRV and future HGVs.

It may work in some kinds of engagements but generally an expensive solution against an inexpensive weapon.

At the moment they have no counter at all, so at least it will boost the more to have something that may work in some way.

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## Oldman1

PeeD said:


> Seems a little desperate move to counter Iranian gliding MaRV and future HGVs.
> 
> It may work in some kinds of engagements but generally an expensive solution against an inexpensive weapon.
> 
> At the moment they have no counter at all, so at least it will boost the more to have something that may work in some way.


Best to go on the offensive and develop their own IRBMs to counter Iran's.


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## PeeD

Oldman1 said:


> Best to go on the offensive and develop their own IRBMs to counter Iran's.



They still believe their multi-decade, multi-billion investment in airpower is sufficient. 

BM's only with nuclear warheads.

Their BM are not designed to be cost efficient, like Irans are.

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## aryobarzan

In a funny way the more Israel brings on technology to the field against Iran ( using American Tech and American $$) the more they help Iranian Tech to develop....Similar thing happened in 1960's to the space program of the US..the russians started it and the American had to counter it and we know the rest of the story...

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## Oldman1

PeeD said:


> They still believe their multi-decade, multi-billion investment in airpower is sufficient.
> 
> BM's only with nuclear warheads.
> 
> Their BM are not designed to be cost efficient, like Irans are.


I wouldn't count them out, even if its not cost efficient with their LORA missiles. Can improve the range, or learn from it and develop new missiles. They only need to develop lets say 3000km range missile to hit all of Iran.


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## Muhammed45

@PeeD sir, can we assume that Zuljanah SLV is in same class with MGM-134 ? 
It has a diameter of 1.17 m and 14 m height. A three stages solid fueled missile weighing 13,600 Kg. Interestingly it has a range of 11,000 KM. 
"The Midgetman grew out of a requirement expressed in the mid-1980s by the U.S. Air Force for a small ICBM which could be deployed on road vehicles. Fixed silos are inherently vulnerable to attack" 
"By producing a mobile missile which could not easily be targeted by enemy forces, and thus survive a first strike attempt, the Air Force hoped to reduce this possibility and maintain the ability to deter (second strike). It was also a response to the Soviet development of SS-24 (rail mobile) and the SS-25 (road mobile) ICBMs."
" System definition studies for the SICBM (Small Intercontinental Ballistic Missile) commenced in 1984 under an Air Force Program Office, located at Norton AFB, CA, with TRW providing System Engineering and Technical Assistance (SETA) support."

The wikipedia called SICBM, small ICBM. I suspect this one is so similar to Zuljanah solid fueled SLV. I'd call them tactical ICBMs. From our experience with bombing Ain Al Assad, i have no doubt that we can have SICBM with lowest possible CEP.

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## Muhammed45

American midgetman






Iranian Zuljanah 




Posted by فیلدمارشال 
Qassed SLV in comparison with MGM-134

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## PeeD

Oldman1 said:


> I wouldn't count them out, even if its not cost efficient with their LORA missiles. Can improve the range, or learn from it and develop new missiles. They only need to develop lets say 3000km range missile to hit all of Iran.



Well 3000km is not easy to achieve cost effectively, but yes they could develop a single stage missile with a cost efficient solid fuel.
They will be forced to do so sooner or later.



Muhammed45 said:


> @PeeD sir, can we assume that Zuljanah SLV is in same class with MGM-134 ?
> It has a diameter of 1.17 m and 14 m height. A three stages solid fueled missile weighing 13,600 Kg. Interestingly it has a range of 11,000 KM.
> "The Midgetman grew out of a requirement expressed in the mid-1980s by the U.S. Air Force for a small ICBM which could be deployed on road vehicles. Fixed silos are inherently vulnerable to attack"
> "By producing a mobile missile which could not easily be targeted by enemy forces, and thus survive a first strike attempt, the Air Force hoped to reduce this possibility and maintain the ability to deter (second strike). It was also a response to the Soviet development of SS-24 (rail mobile) and the SS-25 (road mobile) ICBMs."
> " System definition studies for the SICBM (Small Intercontinental Ballistic Missile) commenced in 1984 under an Air Force Program Office, located at Norton AFB, CA, with TRW providing System Engineering and Technical Assistance (SETA) support."
> 
> The wikipedia called SICBM, small ICBM. I suspect this one is so similar to Zuljanah solid fueled SLV. I'd call them tactical ICBMs. From our experience with bombing Ain Al Assad, i have no doubt that we can have SICBM with lowest possible CEP.



Unfortunately no Midgetman used much higher technology than Zoljanah does.
Midgetmen technology is at the level of the Salman upper stage fortunately.

But Zoljanah is cheaper to build than Midgetman despite being more than twice heavier.

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## Muhammed45

PeeD said:


> But Zoljanah is cheaper to build than Midgetman despite being more than twice heavier.


Then we can have a cost effective solution during any war scenario. 👍

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## PeeD

Muhammed45 said:


> Then we can have a cost effective solution during any war scenario. 👍



Maybe, but lets hope for the IRGC come up with something mobile and small, based on Salman technology.

Zoljanah technology is cost efficient, but not as survivable due to it very high weight.

Zoljanah technology was also originally developed by the IRGC but passed to the space agency after they went for more advanced tech., 15 years is between them.

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## Muhammed45

PeeD said:


> Maybe, but lets hope for the IRGC come up with something mobile and small, based on Salman technology.
> 
> Zoljanah technology is cost efficient, but not as survivable due to it very high weight.
> 
> Zoljanah technology was also originally developed by the IRGC but passed to the space agency after they went for more advanced tech., 15 years is between them.


My main concern, dear sir, is Diego Garcia island. The island and its strategic position allowed USA to inflict a considerable damage on Soviets forces in Afghanistan. If having the island well within range means ICBM capability for Iran then so be it. 
Could we count on Zoljanah in case its upgraded to the level that you have assumed to be 15 years ahead of that?


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> They still believe their multi-decade, multi-billion investment in airpower is sufficient.
> 
> BM's only with nuclear warheads.
> 
> Their BM are not designed to be cost efficient, like Irans are.



Fact is if the Americans had overall chosen BM instead of an Airforce & LACM as their main conventional delivery system they would not have been able to invade any country outside their own continent.

How are you gonna defend your Transport Aircraft, Your Helo's, Your Ships, Your armored divisions...
BM can't target or defend against an incoming armored division at least not very effectively where as their (US) current doctrine allows them to take out up to 40 armored vehicles with a single sensor fuzed weapon.
It allows them to defend a vast naval fleet transporting Troops, Armored divisions, Helo's, LACM,... 

Conflict in Syria is all the prof you need to see the vast limitations of a conventional BM doctrine like Iran's as appose to an Airforce especially when troops and equipment need to be deployed beyond your boarders.... and we aren't even fighting a real military there.... 

Also Americans chose Land Attack Cruise Missiles over BM in the 80's because the accuracy of LACM allowed them to "safely" transport and hit a "larger number" of targets from a "sufficient range" in their initial attack. 
For them choosing LACM over BM was and is still a sound option especially when you have so many!

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## aryobarzan

I have my own question to @PeeD....What makes Midgetman less heavier. I see it is shorter than Iranian Zoljanah then the question will be ...... is it the "fuel" or is it a more efficient "engine"..or both...

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## VEVAK

aryobarzan said:


> I have my own question to @PeeD....What makes Midgetman less heavier. I see it is shorter than Iranian Zoljanah then the question will be ...... is it the "fuel" or is it a more efficient "engine"..or both...



Just compare the spec's Diameter, length.... 

It's the 3 stages and light payload that allows it to travel that distance...


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## aryobarzan

VEVAK said:


> Just compare the spec's Diameter, length....
> 
> It's the 3 stages and light payload that allows it to travel that distance...


but PeeD says Zoljaneh is twice heavier than Midgetman So what accounts for Midgetman being a better Missile. I have heard that "weight per range" not including the warhead is not a fixed number for missile..so back to my question..what makes Midgetman a better missile.


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## PeeD

Muhammed45 said:


> My main concern, dear sir, is Diego Garcia island. The island and its strategic position allowed USA to inflict a considerable damage on Soviets forces in Afghanistan. If having the island well within range means ICBM capability for Iran then so be it.
> Could we count on Zoljanah in case its upgraded to the level that you have assumed to be 15 years ahead of that?



Diego Garcia should be handled with a Khorrmashahr variant. Count on a Salman based ICBM, not the Zoljanah.



VEVAK said:


> Fact is if the Americans had overall chosen BM instead of an Airforce & LACM as their main conventional delivery system they would not have been able to invade any country outside their own continent.
> 
> How are you gonna defend your Transport Aircraft, Your Helo's, Your Ships, Your armored divisions...
> BM can't target or defend against an incoming armored division at least not very effectively where as their (US) current doctrine allows them to take out up to 40 armored vehicles with a single sensor fuzed weapon.
> It allows them to defend a vast naval fleet transporting Troops, Armored divisions, Helo's, LACM,...
> 
> Conflict in Syria is all the prof you need to see the vast limitations of a conventional BM doctrine like Iran's as appose to an Airforce especially when troops and equipment need to be deployed beyond your boarders.... and we aren't even fighting a real military there....
> 
> Also Americans chose Land Attack Cruise Missiles over BM in the 80's because the accuracy of LACM allowed them to "safely" transport and hit a "larger number" of targets from a "sufficient range" in their initial attack.
> For them choosing LACM over BM was and is still a sound option especially when you have so many!



What about the U.S setting up a bridgehead near the place it wants to attack and use BM's?

They chose LACM because they had no BM that could do that job back then.
FYI their new "Hypersonic weapons", are basically BMs.



aryobarzan said:


> I have my own question to @PeeD....What makes Midgetman less heavier. I see it is shorter than Iranian Zoljanah then the question will be ...... is it the "fuel" or is it a more efficient "engine"..or both...



Midgetman or Salman are just much more advanced technology. Similar to Shahab-3 vs. Khorramshahr.
Better everything.

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Diego Garcia should be handled with a Khorrmashahr variant. Count on a Salman based ICBM, not the Zoljanah.
> 
> 
> 
> What about the U.S setting up a bridgehead near the place it wants to attack and use BM's?
> 
> They chose LACM because they had no BM that could do that job back then.
> FYI their new "Hypersonic weapons", are basically BMs.
> 
> 
> 
> Midgetman or Salman are just much more advanced technology. Similar to Shahab-3 vs. Khorramshahr.
> Better everything.



The decision of LACM over BM for the US navy was made in the 80's and given the accuracy of BM and weight requirements compared to range on top of safety issues it was a rather sound decision. 

Even if you create a bridgehead somewhere near enough to an enemy territory you wish to invade, how many BM could you possibly deploy and launch from a location before that location is targeted? And how many BM could you possibly deploy to make up for an Airforce?

And how are you gonna counter moving targets at sea, in the air and on the ground? 
How do you propose to defend against incoming helos? ships? Aircrafts? Armored Battalions?... And how could you possibly defend your own invading force without Aircrafts? 

When your defending your own territory you can afford the logistics of having a vast BM force to counter most fixed targets by spreading them across your territory but for a country that carries out invasion after invasion the logistics alone becomes a rather impossible task 

How are you gonna get a foothold in enemy territory to create a beachhead when you can't defend your fleet? How far would this bridgehead be for your intended beachhead? 

Right now US has over 30 bases within 300km of Iran that can be considered a bridgehead. How many missiles at each of these bases are you gonna deploy and how many missiles could these locations launch before becoming a target of Iranian retaliatory attacks?

Missile can at best make up for the strike capabilities of an Airforce and that's it! They CAN NOT make up for every aspect of an Airforce! From escort to intercept to transport to attack....

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## VEVAK

aryobarzan said:


> but PeeD says Zoljaneh is twice heavier than Midgetman So what accounts for Midgetman being a better Missile. I have heard that "weight per range" not including the warhead is not a fixed number for missile..so back to my question..what makes Midgetman a better missile.



Unless every aspect and every aspect ratio of your missile is fixed and uses the same type of tech there would be no weight per range fixed number!
Above the atmosphere the only thing that keeps you up is speed! And Iran can build a single stage missile 2 times the size of the Zoljanah and it's range will not be anywhere near the midgetman or even a 2 stage Zoljanah due to the fact that the size of your nozzle requirement at sea level would be much smaller and different than at high altitudes or in a vacuum! So with the midgetman it's the science and tech behind the upper stages that dictate it's range not the booster size or weight.

So again the number of stages and proper configuration of the stages and light payload is what allows it to travel that distance!

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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> The decision of LACM over BM for the US navy was made in the 80's and given the accuracy of BM and weight requirements compared to range on top of safety issues it was a rather sound decision.



Yeah a sound decision because something like the Pershing-2 was too fragile and expensive, but also still not accurate enough.



VEVAK said:


> Even if you create a bridgehead somewhere near enough to an enemy territory you wish to invade, how many BM could you possibly deploy and launch from a location before that location is targeted? And how many BM could you possibly deploy to make up for an Airforce?



How you want to target mobile missile units over extended ranges?



VEVAK said:


> And how are you gonna counter moving targets at sea, in the air and on the ground?
> How do you propose to defend against incoming helos? ships? Aircrafts? Armored Battalions?... And how could you possibly defend your own invading force without Aircrafts?



If you want to invade far away countries, yes, something like Su-57, F-22, Mig-31 or J-20 is helpful.
But all you mentioned have other, very good non-airforce counters.



VEVAK said:


> When your defending your own territory you can afford the logistics of having a vast BM force to counter most fixed targets by spreading them across your territory but for a country that carries out invasion after invasion the logistics alone becomes a rather impossible task



You know what a B-52 or B-21 launched hypersonic missile is? Effectively a ballistic missile something the U.S will need against top opponents at the start of the conflict to allow its tactical airpower to be used.
They have realized this and stopped the INF treaty.

So its not a matter of choice: Original stealth airpower and CMs of the U.S will not be sufficient against strong powers. They are forced to create hypersonic weapons to remain a superpower.
The difference is that their secure isolated position and sophisticated strategic airpower, on which they worked for 90 or so years already, is used instead of truck based TELs.



VEVAK said:


> How are you gonna get a foothold in enemy territory to create a beachhead when you can't defend your fleet? How far would this bridgehead be for your intended beachhead?



You start at a more distant bridgehead outside the reach of your opponent.



VEVAK said:


> Right now US has over 30 bases within 300km of Iran that can be considered a bridgehead. How many missiles at each of these bases are you gonna deploy and how many missiles could these locations launch before becoming a target of Iranian retaliatory attacks?



Missiles launch fast, that's their quality. And they dont need runways and are small and mobile.



VEVAK said:


> Missile can at best make up for the strike capabilities of an Airforce and that's it! They CAN NOT make up for every aspect of an Airforce! From escort to intercept to transport to attack....



Iran has just not the luck to basically be a isolated continent between two oceans. Irans airfield would be priority targets for CMs and future hypersonic weapons.

Airforce can be useful, but in Irans case, only in a very limited way.

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## Surenas

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364309096158134275

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## Shawnee

@PeeD 
Why is it wrong to consider the first stage of Zoljanah partly carbon fiber?

It changes the calculations a lot. It was done for prior first stages before.


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## yavar

Surenas said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364309096158134275

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## PeeD

Shawnee said:


> @PeeD
> Why is it wrong to consider the first stage of Zoljanah partly carbon fiber?
> 
> It changes the calculations a lot. It was done for prior first stages before.



Its clearly not a carbon fiber design yet.

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## Shawnee

PeeD said:


> Its clearly not a carbon fiber design yet.



This might be a dumb question but how can we tell that based on the design.

I am not a mechanical/aerospace engineer. My observation is based on the evolution of Raad500 from Fateh 110. Zohair composite engine was unveiled then. The body of the first stage stayed the same, despite the changes in the nose and nozzle/guidance.

There was a rumor that from now on the production lines are moving toward composite. This is not official of course.


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## Iskander

yavar said:


>


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## PeeD

Shawnee said:


> This might be a dumb question but how can we tell that based on the design.
> 
> I am not a mechanical/aerospace engineer. My observation is based on the evolution of Raad500 from Fateh 110. Zohair composite engine was unveiled then. The body of the first stage stayed the same, despite the changes in the nose and nozzle/guidance.
> 
> There was a rumor that from now on the production lines are moving toward composite. This is not official of course.



The weld-lines show that its a steel design, as well its low payload.

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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> @PeeD
> Why is it wrong to consider the first stage of Zoljanah partly carbon fiber?
> 
> It changes the calculations a lot. It was done for prior first stages before.


Well making the second stage from carbon fiber is a lot more beneficial than builsing the first stage from carbon fibre .


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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> Yeah a sound decision because something like the Pershing-2 was too fragile and expensive, but also still not accurate enough.



Not to mention the weight requirement of the missile, it's launcher,...



PeeD said:


> How you want to target mobile missile units over extended ranges?



If you think hitting a mobile launcher is hard, just imagine how hard hitting airborne targets will be over extended ranges to make up for a lack of an Airforce 



PeeD said:


> If you want to invade far away countries, yes, something like Su-57, F-22, Mig-31 or J-20 is helpful.
> But all you mentioned have other, very good non-airforce counters.



They do not have a feasible none Aircraft counter that could possibly match the the various tasks the U.S. military requires. From transport and logistics to escort and intercept to providing cover and attack. 



PeeD said:


> You know what a B-52 or B-21 launched hypersonic missile is? Effectively a ballistic missile something the U.S will need against top opponents at the start of the conflict to allow its tactical airpower to be used.
> They have realized this and stopped the INF treaty.
> 
> So its not a matter of choice: Original stealth airpower and CMs of the U.S will not be sufficient against strong powers. They are forced to create hypersonic weapons to remain a superpower.
> The difference is that their secure isolated position and sophisticated strategic airpower, on which they worked for 90 or so years already, is used instead of truck based TELs.



The fact that the best way to take on and take out high value enemy Air Defense targets is with high speed projectiles and Ballistic Missiles no doubt top the list of being one of the best solution to carry on that task, that fact doesn't change the requirement for an Airforce nor does it make BM feasible replacement for a long list of other task that an Airforce would be responsible for.

Meaning you can NOT replace an Airforce with BM as a feasible solution! 




PeeD said:


> You start at a more distant bridgehead outside the reach of your opponent.



Such a solution would expressly restrict your capabilities against enemies who do not have the power to target and attack your bridgehead! 
And financial costs you would have to pay to be able to take on a significant number of targets against an obviously weaker appointment would be absurd!
Nor does it give you the capability to provide cover for your own invading forces
etc.... 



PeeD said:


> Missiles launch fast, that's their quality. And they dont need runways and are small and mobile.



How ever fast you think mobile launcher are you have to somehow deploy a vast number of them to a location and store a vast number how do you propose to do that without Aircover? 

Do you honestly think that if the U.S. didn't have a vast superior Air Power a country like Iran would simply stand by and watch the U.S. deploy 1000's of Tel to the region? clearly not!
Without air cover US forces wouldn't survive a week in our region 




PeeD said:


> Iran has just not the luck to basically be a isolated continent between two oceans. Irans airfield would be priority targets for CMs and future hypersonic weapons.
> 
> Airforce can be useful, but in Irans case, only in a very limited way.



We are not discussing what is a more feasible options for Iran at present! We are discussing the U.S. choice of Air Power over BM 

Even now without any major wars the United States on average drops one bomb every 12 minutes! That is 5 bombs an hour! 120 Bombs a day! which is 43,200 bombs a year! And that's without being involved in any major wars.

To top that off the "long term" effects of such an absurd decision would have dier consequences for their civil aviation.

Even for Iran BM are a good short term option only! BM will NOT make up for Iran's need of Air Power! 
Iran needs to be able to transport it's troops and equipment!
Iran requires Helo's and needs to provide cover for it's helo's 
Iran requires AWACS, mobile and airborne command.
Iran needs to have the capability to escort it's own aircraft and requires the ability to intercept enemy aircrafts
etc....

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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> Meaning you can NOT replace an Airforce with BM as a feasible solution!



You are straw-manning me a little.

I didn't say the U.S should abandon their airforce in favor for BMs, point is: They have no real BMs or hypersonic missiles at all, at this moment, and working to get them.

The U.S has realized that ranges of typical tacair like F/A-18 or even F-35 are not sufficient to counter advanced enemies (of which there are only a handfull in the world).

They will go for a large B-21 fleet, with strategic range and hypersonic weapons ( more or less BM) that can penetrate the target at extended ranges.

Tacair and drones are only brought in if the key enemy capabilities are degraded. Then they can be used as tactical bombtrucks as you described



VEVAK said:


> If you think hitting a mobile launcher is hard, just imagine how hard hitting airborne targets will be over extended ranges to make up for a lack of an Airforce



In fact less hard.



VEVAK said:


> They do not have a feasible none Aircraft counter that could possibly match the the various tasks the U.S. military requires. From transport and logistics to escort and intercept to providing cover and attack.



No one talks about transport aircrafts here. Its about the old fashioned (2000's) U.S dream of F-35 striking Natanz deep inside Iran via stealth, SDB and other fancy things.
No. This wont work against a country like Iran anymore.

They need more potent weapons, like B-52 delivered hypersonic missiles, or the Pershing-2 if they still had it.




VEVAK said:


> How ever fast you think mobile launcher are you have to somehow deploy a vast number of them to a location and store a vast number how do you propose to do that without Aircover?



Which aircraft can go and strike 2000-3000km range BM's for which you would need tacair to counter it?
Its all about the ranges.




VEVAK said:


> Even for Iran BM are a good short term option only! BM will NOT make up for Iran's need of Air Power!



Again, I didn't say Iran should completely abandon its airforce. Just the vast priority is with the missile forces.



VEVAK said:


> Iran requires AWACS, mobile and airborne command.



Want to see those large soft assets survive and take off from their homebase after it received a salvo of 2500km range hypersonic missiles fired at safe distance from B-52.

2-3 AEW with 100 long range Su-57, for offensive force projection against typical low capability neighbors? That would be good, but not more.



VEVAK said:


> Iran needs to have the capability to escort it's own aircraft and requires the ability to intercept enemy aircrafts
> etc....



Such a capability is good to have and should be there, The vast majority of resources should be put in missiles, then drones and then tacair.

So while in 1980, tacair made up 100% of high-end capability, 20% are whats good today.

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## Blue In Green

Surprised by this one. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365330714720407557
I didn't know the Americans had drone footage of the attack.

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## Stryker1982

Inside the attack that almost sent the U.S. to war with Iran


David Martin speaks with troops who were there as an Iranian ballistic missile attack rained down on Al Asad Airbase in Iraq, part of six days that saw the U.S. and Iran go to the brink of war.




www.cbsnews.com





Theirs some short footage I've never seen before, including Drone footage of Ain-Al Assad taken by the Americans themselves monitoring the base while the missiles hit. Full story will be reported on Sunday

*Article:*


In January of last year, Iran launched the largest ballistic missile attack ever against Americans. Eleven missiles, each carrying a warhead weighing more than 1,000 pounds, slammed into Al Asad Airbase in Iraq where 2,000 U.S. troops and scores of aircraft were based. General Frank McKenzie, the top U.S. commander for the Middle East, recalled that night, telling David Martin, "Things are happening that could take us to war if we don't make the correct move here." 60 Minutes has obtained unreleased drone footage of those incoming warheads which an Army major said were "Like a freight train going by you." Martin's report will include first-hand accounts of the bombardment from survivors and will be broadcast on 60 Minutes, Sunday, February 28 at 7 p.m. ET/PT on CBS. 

Iran launched the attack in retaliation for an American drone strike that killed General Qassem Soleimani, its most powerful military officer, six days before. McKenzie tells Martin that then-President Trump ordered the strike on Soleimani because he was planning attacks against Americans in Iraq. "We saw intelligence reports where Qassem Soleimani was moving various attack streams forward against our forces in Iraq, against our embassy and against other bases there… Perhaps in hours, perhaps in days, probably not weeks," McKenzie says.

When U.S. intelligence detected Iranian preparations for the missile attack, McKenzie had enough time to evacuate the base of 1,000 troops and 50 aircraft. McKenzie says without the evacuation, "I think we might have lost 20 or 30 airplanes and we'd have lost 100 to 150 U.S. personnel," adding, "We had a plan to retaliate if Americans had died." 

Iran fired a total of 16 missiles – five missed and 11 struck Al Asad. "It was an attack certainly like nothing I've ever seen or experienced… Their missiles are accurate," McKenzie says. "They hit pretty much where they wanted to hit." 

There was no defense against the missiles for the troops who remained at the base except to take cover. Army Major Alan Johnson tells Martin, "We start heading down maybe 135 meters, make it about a third of the way there, the Big Voice we call it, clicks in, 'Incoming, incoming, take cover, take cover, take cover.' I've got another football field to run. I don't know when this next missile's going to hit." The missiles sounded, "Like a freight train going by you." Johnson describes cramming roughly 40 people into a bunker designed to protect just ten people from much smaller munitions. 

More than 100 of the troops who rode out the attack at Al Asad that night were diagnosed with Traumatic Brain Injury from the blasts. Johnson says he still has headaches, ringing in his ears and nightmares. He doesn't know how he survived. "Luck. The only thing I can actually come up with is that hand of God protected us. Because, really, nobody should have lived through this."

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365098026537263105


----------



## Saddam Hussein

Arian said:


> @camelguy You're banned now, but it's still worth mentioning you. What do you think about that?



What's the purpose of your question

Should I join khamenei camp and shout marg bar amrika now, US removal of Saddam was of your greatest interest. Save me the post.

Iraq under Iranian influence today is the biggest shithole it has ever been, you can roam around the entire country and ask Shias and they'll tell you they miss Saddam.

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## Saddam Hussein

As for the USAF, they should have never targeted Saddam, they should've kept him in power, remove the sanctions. Have you guys try to do it.


----------



## aryobarzan

camelguy said:


> What's the purpose of your question
> 
> Should I join khamenei camp and shout marg bar amrika now, US removal of Saddam was of your greatest interest. Save me the post.
> 
> Iraq under Iranian influence today is the biggest shithole it has ever been, you can roam around the entire country and ask Shias and they'll tell you they miss Saddam.


Hey buddy, Iraq was always a shit hole and it has nothing to do with Iran. look into mirror for your problems... I remember when I was in Iran (1970s) there was a coup just about every 6 months... each coup guy will kill the previous coup guy and the process went on until saddam came and he killed very one..lol
Iraq is an artificial country and that is the root cause ..nothing to do with Iran...at least now shia 65% and kurd 20% do not have to bend over to sunni 15%...that is progress.


----------



## Saddam Hussein

aryobarzan said:


> Hey buddy, Iraq was always a shit hole and it has nothing to do with Iran. look into mirror for your problems... I remember when I was Iran (1970s) there was a coup just about every 6 months... each coup guy will kill the previous coup guy and the process went on until saddam came and he killed very one..lol
> Iraq is an artificial country and that is the root cause ..nothing to do with Iran...at least now shia 65% and kurd 20% do not have to bend over to sunni 15%...that is progress.



Iraq was great in the 70's, before Khomeini gained power, Khomeini who was residing in Iraq whom should've been sent to outer space.

As for coups, Iran has had its fair share of those. How's Mossadegh doing, did fellow Iranians throw him out for some CIA money.

You're in Canada, like many other of your diaspora because the basiji will pump your butt over there. Stfu already. My reply wasn't to you.


----------



## aryobarzan

camelguy said:


> Iraq was great in the 70's, before Khomeini gained power, Khomeini who was residing in Iraq whom should've been sent to outer space.
> 
> As for coups, Iran has had its fair share of those. How's Mossadegh doing, did fellow Iranians throw him out for some CIA money.
> 
> You're in Canada, like many other of your diaspora because the basiji will pump your butt over there. Stfu already. My reply wasn't to you.


I do not intend to get this thread off topic...I feel sorry for iraq..I really do,,,but look in the mirror,,your problems are not with Iran...and that is my last reply.

PS: my butt is doing fine but thanks for your concern..lol

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## Old School

camelguy said:


> As for the USAF, they should have never targeted Saddam, they should've kept him in power, remove the sanctions. Have you guys try to do it.



Iranians always have regional domination in their mind regardless of secular or religious affiliation. This imperialist mentality will cost them dearly. It is only a matter of time before Iran becomes another Iraq/Libya. The Middle East can not afford a nation suffering from racial superiority complex with imperialist attitude.

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## Saddam Hussein

aryobarzan said:


> I do not intend to get this thread off topic...I feel sorry for iraq..I really do,,,but look in the mirror,,your problems are not with Iran...and that is my last reply.
> 
> PS: my butt is doing fine but thanks for your concern..lol



I am here to reply to a tag to make someone aware of the popular opinion in Iraq, they don't like Iran/Iranian regime and that's due to those in power, whom happen to worship certain Shia figures.

All the rest was your input, no one neither I said Iraqis are not to blame, my comment is to make someone aware of something he's not seeing. Which he won't see from my comments either way.

Iraq is a shithole beyond belief today, no different from Somalia. It has no state, no authority. In Saddam's days that's completely the opposite. few retarded Iran worshippers, anyone with a brain over there knows better.

That said the thread is about Iran's missiles, not sure why I got tagged about something not related to Iran, ending it from here


----------



## IranDefence

camelguy said:


> I am here to reply to a tag to make someone aware of the popular opinion in Iraq, they don't like Iran/Iranian regime and that's due to those in power, whom happen to worship certain Shia figures.
> 
> All the rest was your input, no one neither I said Iraqis are not to blame, my comment is to make someone aware of something he's not seeing. Which he won't see from my comments either way.
> 
> Iraq is a shithole beyond belief today, no different from Somalia. It has no state, no authority. In Saddam's days that's completely the opposite. few retarded Iran worshippers, anyone with a brain over there knows better.
> 
> That said the thread is about Iran's missiles, not sure why I got tagged about something not related to Iran, ending it from here



Sorry man if Americans don't let your pro west government to buy Siemens or Iranian Mapna turbines to solve the electricity problem sorry if Americans don't let your pro west government to import gas from Iran sorry if Americans don't let your pro west government to let Chinese come inside Iraq and build infrastructures sorry if Americans decide what weapons you need when planes to be ready for scramble to whom you sell your oil which companies can help with your oil ... Sorry if Iran just sells Pegah cheese and some building stuff for your houses and you buy it from Iran because it's cheapest in the whole world ... Sorry if we didn't let ISIS decapitate all of you ppl like lambs ...

Iraqis are blind they never see their American Master they see just Iranian Pegah and always burn its headquarters ... Get Americans away from our country or we will do it harshly

What happened to $160 billion compensation of your MF Saddam war to Iran ? You payed it to Kuwait

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## jauk

VEVAK said:


> Not to mention the weight requirement of the missile, it's launcher,...
> 
> 
> 
> If you think hitting a mobile launcher is hard, just imagine how hard hitting airborne targets will be over extended ranges to make up for a lack of an Airforce
> 
> 
> 
> They do not have a feasible none Aircraft counter that could possibly match the the various tasks the U.S. military requires. From transport and logistics to escort and intercept to providing cover and attack.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that the best way to take on and take out high value enemy Air Defense targets is with high speed projectiles and Ballistic Missiles no doubt top the list of being one of the best solution to carry on that task, that fact doesn't change the requirement for an Airforce nor does it make BM feasible replacement for a long list of other task that an Airforce would be responsible for.
> 
> Meaning you can NOT replace an Airforce with BM as a feasible solution!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a solution would expressly restrict your capabilities against enemies who do not have the power to target and attack your bridgehead!
> And financial costs you would have to pay to be able to take on a significant number of targets against an obviously weaker appointment would be absurd!
> Nor does it give you the capability to provide cover for your own invading forces
> etc....
> 
> 
> 
> How ever fast you think mobile launcher are you have to somehow deploy a vast number of them to a location and store a vast number how do you propose to do that without Aircover?
> 
> Do you honestly think that if the U.S. didn't have a vast superior Air Power a country like Iran would simply stand by and watch the U.S. deploy 1000's of Tel to the region? clearly not!
> Without air cover US forces wouldn't survive a week in our region
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing what is a more feasible options for Iran at present! We are discussing the U.S. choice of Air Power over BM
> 
> Even now without any major wars the United States on average drops one bomb every 12 minutes! That is 5 bombs an hour! 120 Bombs a day! which is 43,200 bombs a year! And that's without being involved in any major wars.
> 
> To top that off the "long term" effects of such an absurd decision would have dier consequences for their civil aviation.
> 
> Even for Iran BM are a good short term option only! BM will NOT make up for Iran's need of Air Power!
> Iran needs to be able to transport it's troops and equipment!
> Iran requires Helo's and needs to provide cover for it's helo's
> Iran requires AWACS, mobile and airborne command.
> Iran needs to have the capability to escort it's own aircraft and requires the ability to intercept enemy aircrafts
> etc....


 We have an Air Force. Drones. Combat fighters is retrograde thinking. Iran shouldn't invest a penny in operational aircraft only for TOT and the minimum required.


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## Saddam Hussein

IranDefence said:


> Sorry man if Americans don't let your pro west government to buy Siemens or Iranian Mapna turbines to solve the electricity problem sorry if Americans don't let your pro west government to import gas from Iran sorry if Americans don't let your pro west government to let Chinese come inside Iraq and build infrastructures sorry if Americans decide what weapons you need when planes to be ready for scramble to whom you sell your oil which companies can help with your oil ... Sorry if Iran just sells Pegah cheese and some building stuff for your houses and you buy it from Iran because it's cheapest in the whole world ... Sorry if we didn't let ISIS decapitate all of you ppl like lambs ...
> 
> Iraqis are blind they never see their American Master they see just Iranian Pegah and always burn its headquarters ... Get Americans away from our country or we will do it harshly
> 
> What happened to $160 billion compensation of your MF Saddam war to Iran ? You payed it to Kuwait



All bullshit since Iraq imports billions of USD from Iran, including mapna, electrity and oil

Why do you need to lie

Ask ab ayatollah for money Instead, that war was self defense and legitimate

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## raptor22

camelguy said:


> As for the USAF, they should have never targeted Saddam, they should've kept him in power, remove the sanctions. Have you guys try to do it.


Then you should have fought for Saddam in 2003 ... you didn't .. why?

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## Saddam Hussein

raptor22 said:


> Then you should have fought for Saddam in 2003 ... you didn't .. why?



I was a child

People were fed up of sanctions in 2003 and the no fly zones. Do me a favour and don't compare your sanctions to the 90s sanctions of Iraq. Incomparable, you have airliners flying in even. Iraq was isolated North Korea level and it had no China neighbor.

Iran should thank America everyday for removing someone you couldn't for a decade.


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## Blue In Green

Guys, this thread is for missiles, not about Iraq or Iran and what should have happened or could have happened in the past. 

Pls move your conversations somewhere else.

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## skyshadow

*Israeli delegation stayed away from Dubai arms fair for fear of Iranian attack*










Report: Israeli delegation stayed away from Dubai arms fair for fear of Iranian attack


* * *




www.timesofisrael.com

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## Shawnee

skyshadow said:


> *Israeli delegation stayed away from Dubai arms fair for fear of Iranian attack*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: Israeli delegation stayed away from Dubai arms fair for fear of Iranian attack
> 
> 
> * * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com



Bibi has delayed visiting Persian Gulf countries for months. Chicken shit!

Last time Jeddah was hit on his arrival with a single missile that was completely undetected.

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## skyshadow

Shawnee said:


> Bibi has delayed visiting Persian Gulf countries for months. Chicken shit!
> 
> Last time Jeddah was hit on his arrival with a single missile that was completely undetected.


*agreed, read this *

*Twenty-four hours of Iran’s total war in Yemen, Iraq and Syria*










Twenty-four hours of Iran’s total war in Yemen, Iraq and Syria


The attack on Saudi Arabia on Saturday included video of an interception over the skies of Riyadh.




www.jpost.com

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## skyshadow

*"Iran struck a civilian target at sea" officials in Israel's defense establishment say. When Iran conducted cyber attacks against Israeli civilian infrastructure, Israel responded accordingly. The response this time may not be covert. *



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365761057332076550



*bring it on we are waiting 🇮🇷 





*

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> You are straw-manning me a little.
> 
> I didn't say the U.S should abandon their airforce in favor for BMs, point is: They have no real BMs or hypersonic missiles at all, at this moment, and working to get them.
> 
> The U.S has realized that ranges of typical tacair like F/A-18 or even F-35 are not sufficient to counter advanced enemies (of which there are only a handfull in the world).
> 
> They will go for a large B-21 fleet, with strategic range and hypersonic weapons ( more or less BM) that can penetrate the target at extended ranges.
> 
> Tacair and drones are only brought in if the key enemy capabilities are degraded. Then they can be used as tactical bombtrucks as you described



Not straw manning you azeezam we are just talking.....

The U.S. may not view BM as a viable conventional solution due to their vast requirements but that doesn't mean they don't have them.

And how we categorize Hypersonic is much different than they way they categories them. And you know that!





PeeD said:


> In fact less hard.



Your saying hitting a moving target on the ground from 2000km is harder than hitting airborne target at that range? Come on now!!! 



PeeD said:


> No one talks about transport aircrafts here. Its about the old fashioned (2000's) U.S dream of F-35 striking Natanz deep inside Iran via stealth, SDB and other fancy things.
> No. This wont work against a country like Iran anymore.
> 
> They need more potent weapons, like B-52 delivered hypersonic missiles, or the Pershing-2 if they still had it.



I very much doubt the U.S. was ever under the impression that they could use F-35's as the main delivery system to hit Natanz. No doubt F-35's would be used in the operation and used against Iranian IADS but not as the main payload delivery system for hitting Natanz it's self.

A Pershing2 armed with a conventional payload would not be able to penetrate Natanz either. 

And if the U.S. didn't put much value in BM's they wouldn't be using as the main payload delivery system for their nuclear weapons.




PeeD said:


> Which aircraft can go and strike 2000-3000km range BM's for which you would need tacair to counter it?
> Its all about the ranges.



Simply put, if the US had vast BM stationed in Diego Garcia instead of a vast Air Power would Iran allow them to have so many bases around Iran? 
Would we stand by and let their ships to come and go and deploy so many weapons as they please?

I'm not questioning the value of BM's but the fact is it's not ether or! You can not create a unidimensional military and expect your enemy to idly sit by and not create a counter to that one capability!

If you create a military that is utterly incapable of countering areal targets beyond 200km what do you think your enemy is going to do? Of course they will develop capabilities around your weaknesses to try to take away any advantages you many have 



PeeD said:


> Again, I didn't say Iran should completely abandon its airforce. Just the vast priority is with the missile forces.



It's not either or! 

And the development of a capable Air Force isn't simply about Fighter jets! 

Look at the state of Iranian civil aviation! Look at the age of our Fighters and Transport aircraft! 

How much longer do you think this will last?

So no! Priority can not be with Missiles alone 



PeeD said:


> Want to see those large soft assets survive and take off from their homebase after it received a salvo of 2500km range hypersonic missiles fired at safe distance from B-52.
> 
> 2-3 AEW with 100 long range Su-57, for offensive force projection against typical low capability neighbors? That would be good, but not more.



No! I would like to see those soft assets become Airborne &/or moved before shots are fired! Just like how US moved most of it's assets as soon as they felt an Iranian missile attack was coming. Which is why having a large sensor network is vital to the security of any country 

As for Su-57's I honestly believe Iran is technologically advanced enough that given sufficient funding we can produce a fighter that would be more than sufficient. 
At the rate the Russians are producing Su-57's it would take them 2 decades before they can transfer 100 Su-57s to Iran. If properly funded we can easily produce a viable fighter of our own within that timeframe 

Production of a viable fighter isn't just about a fighter or just about an Airforce!

Fact is lack of budget in the Military clearly shows that our leadership still doesn't clearly understand the value and implications of a properly funded defense industry and it's effects on various civilian industries. 




PeeD said:


> Such a capability is good to have and should be there, The vast majority of resources should be put in missiles, then drones and then tacair.
> 
> So while in 1980, tacair made up 100% of high-end capability, 20% are whats good today.



So we agree in principle! 

Kelooyee agheh hesab koneem if before 60%-70% of your budget for new weapons and equipment acquisitions went to the Air Force today under normal circumstances that should be divided between 20% manned fixed winged Aircraft from transport to fighters 20% Missiles from SLV to LACM & Rockets 15%Navy & Coastal Defense 15% Cyber warfare, AI, robotics & unmanned systems UAV/UCAV/UGV 10% IADS 10% Infantry equipment from coms to ISW 5% Helo's 5% Ground Vehicles, Equipment & Artillery 
Kilooiii! For weapons, parts and equipment acquisitions NOT military budget! 

Now under normal circumstances that would absolutely be ideal, however, when you have failed to properly acquire new aircrafts over decades on end then a smart leadership should have built up the budget needed to make up for it! 

And by no means am i advocating the purchase of foreign Aircraft! Simply that they invest properly in the infrastructure needed to make up for years of neglect. And purchasing fighters is not the answer! 
If the French where able to produce an Aircraft like the Mirage IV in the late 60's then the idea that Iran is technologically incapable of building something far superior today is nothing but a sad excuse. Iran's requirements for manned Aircrafts are not going away


----------



## bahadur

The SiLent crY said:


> Iran's efforts to build long-range ballistic missiles and artillery with a high range can be divided into three periods .
> 
> First period : ( 1977 - 1979 )
> 
> Second period : During the years of war with Iraq ( 1980 - 1988 )
> 
> Third period : since end of war ( since 1988 )
> 
> Since the second period , manufacture of rockets and missiles entered a new phase and designing and producing them in a huge number was performed . ( The experience of 8 year war helped Iran to understand the influence of ballistic missiles and missile technology in War , defense strategy which led Iran to unlimited missile defense strategy ).
> 
> After the war , Iran tried to develop it's missile technology with the help of foreign experts who were driven from their country or were unemployed .
> 
> *Solid Fuel :*
> 
> The main foundation of using this fuel were Oghab and Shahin 2 missiles .
> 
> Iran used this technology systematically for it's field artillery which caused producing Fajr , Naze'at and Zelzal artillery groups . Initial efforts were supported by China's technical assistance and technology .
> Many Assembly and manufacturing plant were built during the years from 1991 to 1992 . Iran with an incredible speed overtook china and was needless of china in producing .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fajr 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fajr 3
> 
> Weight : 45 kg (HE Content) _ 90 kg (Warhead) _ 407 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 5,200 mm (Rocket)
> 
> Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)
> 
> Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)
> 
> Caliber : 240 mm
> 
> Maximum range :43 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fajr 5
> 
> Weight : 90 kg (HE Content) _ 175 kg (Warhead) _ 915 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 10.45 m (Launcher) _ 6.485 m (Rocket)
> 
> Width : 2.54 m (Launcher)
> 
> Height : 3.34 m (Launcher)
> 
> Caliber : 333 mm
> 
> Effective range : 68&#8211;75 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naze'at 6
> 
> Weight : 130 kg (Warhead) _ 960 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 6.29 m
> 
> Width : 356 mm
> 
> maximum range : 100 km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naze'at 10
> 
> Weight : 230 kg (Warhead) _ 1830 kg (Rocket)
> 
> Length : 8.02 m
> 
> Width : 455 mm
> 
> maximum range : 130 km
> 
> *To be continued*



great country .

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## VEVAK

jauk said:


> We have an Air Force. Drones. Combat fighters is retrograde thinking. Iran shouldn't invest a penny in operational aircraft only for TOT and the minimum required.



A fighter program isn't just about a fighter! The requirements for manned Aircrafts isn't going away and you can't point to a single country on the planet that is capable of producing a viable airliner with engines and all but has yet to master the ability to produce it's own fighters!

It's almost always the defense industry that pushes forward the science, technological and infrastructural capabilities of country 

So failing to properly invest in aircraft development is simply put "IDIOTIC"


----------



## OldTwilight

USA will use tactical ballistic missiles to target our assets ....

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## yavar

OldTwilight said:


> USA will use tactical ballistic missiles to target our assets ....


to add or give better or clear picture,

they will use low yield (useable nuclear weapon ) missile cruise or ballistic for sure the second round of escalation

something like this

low yield neutron bomb





or

bit more efactive





January 29, 2020
*US Deploys New Low-Yield Nuclear Submarine Warhead*
The US Navy has now deployed the new W76-2 low-yield Trident submarine warhead. The first ballistic missile submarine scheduled to deploy with the new warhead was the USS Tennessee (SSBN-734), which deployed from Kings Bay Submarine Base in Georgia during the final weeks of 2019 for a deterrent patrol in the Atlantic Ocean.
The W76-2 warhead was first announced in the Trump administration’s Nuclear Posture Review (NPR) unveiled in February 2018
Though almost all of the discussion about the new W76-2 has focused on Russia scenarios, it is much more likely that the new low-yield weapon is intended to facilitate first-use of nuclear weapons against Iran.




__





US Deploys New Low-Yield Nuclear Submarine Warhead


By William M. Arkin* and Hans M. Kristensen The US Navy has now deployed the new W76-2 low-yield Trident submarine warhead. The first ballistic missile submarine scheduled to deploy with the new warhead was the USS Tennessee (SSBN-734), which deployed from Kings Bay Submarine Base in Geo




fas.org






https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/media/2018-Nuclear-Posture-Review-Version-2.pdf




I just wanted to make more clear for Iranian members here or anyone who has delusions about the use such weapons by U.S against Iran if anything get escalated .

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> to add or give better or clear picture,
> 
> they will use low yield (useable nuclear weapon ) missile cruise or ballistic for sure the second round of escalation
> 
> something like this
> 
> low yield neutron bomb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or
> 
> bit more efactive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> January 29, 2020
> *US Deploys New Low-Yield Nuclear Submarine Warhead*
> The US Navy has now deployed the new W76-2 low-yield Trident submarine warhead. The first ballistic missile submarine scheduled to deploy with the new warhead was the USS Tennessee (SSBN-734), which deployed from Kings Bay Submarine Base in Georgia during the final weeks of 2019 for a deterrent patrol in the Atlantic Ocean.
> The W76-2 warhead was first announced in the Trump administration’s Nuclear Posture Review (NPR) unveiled in February 2018
> Though almost all of the discussion about the new W76-2 has focused on Russia scenarios, it is much more likely that the new low-yield weapon is intended to facilitate first-use of nuclear weapons against Iran.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Deploys New Low-Yield Nuclear Submarine Warhead
> 
> 
> By William M. Arkin* and Hans M. Kristensen The US Navy has now deployed the new W76-2 low-yield Trident submarine warhead. The first ballistic missile submarine scheduled to deploy with the new warhead was the USS Tennessee (SSBN-734), which deployed from Kings Bay Submarine Base in Geo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fas.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/media/2018-Nuclear-Posture-Review-Version-2.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just wanted to make more clear for Iranian members here or anyone who has delusions about the use such weapons by U.S against Iran if anything get escalated .



Is Iran prepared for such a scenario?
Any chance to stand against such an escalation?

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## Stryker1982

yavar said:


> to add or give better or clear picture,
> 
> they will use low yield (useable nuclear weapon ) missile cruise or ballistic for sure the second round of escalation
> 
> something like this
> 
> low yield neutron bomb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or
> 
> bit more efactive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> January 29, 2020
> *US Deploys New Low-Yield Nuclear Submarine Warhead*
> The US Navy has now deployed the new W76-2 low-yield Trident submarine warhead. The first ballistic missile submarine scheduled to deploy with the new warhead was the USS Tennessee (SSBN-734), which deployed from Kings Bay Submarine Base in Georgia during the final weeks of 2019 for a deterrent patrol in the Atlantic Ocean.
> The W76-2 warhead was first announced in the Trump administration’s Nuclear Posture Review (NPR) unveiled in February 2018
> Though almost all of the discussion about the new W76-2 has focused on Russia scenarios, it is much more likely that the new low-yield weapon is intended to facilitate first-use of nuclear weapons against Iran.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Deploys New Low-Yield Nuclear Submarine Warhead
> 
> 
> By William M. Arkin* and Hans M. Kristensen The US Navy has now deployed the new W76-2 low-yield Trident submarine warhead. The first ballistic missile submarine scheduled to deploy with the new warhead was the USS Tennessee (SSBN-734), which deployed from Kings Bay Submarine Base in Geo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fas.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/media/2018-Nuclear-Posture-Review-Version-2.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just wanted to make more clear for Iranian members here or anyone who has delusions about the use such weapons by U.S against Iran if anything get escalated .



You sure that Yemen blast was a neutron bomb. I remember from before that the their was a ammo dump underneath.


Draco.IMF said:


> Is Iran prepared for such a scenario?
> Any chance to stand against such an escalation?



The *W76-2* is a 5-7 Kt nuclear missile that would likely be used in a saturation attack against nuclear hardened missile cities. The firepower that can exit these facilities particularly with the carousel system in place would be too costly to bear for Iran's adversaries. The use of these weapons are the only means to disable these bases.

Iran's missile cities are nuclear hardened. Iran has no illusions that these weapons would be used against it. That being said, will it be able to handle multiple hits precision guided strike from a 5-7 Kt warhead is the main question.

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> Is Iran prepared for such a scenario?
> Any chance to stand against such an escalation?



Iran IRGC Gen Salami: we are fully ready for worst case scenario with US /battlefield will show our power





Iran IRGC Brigadier General Rastegar Panah on IRIB3 : head of Iran’s Center for Sustainable National Security Studies, . he is works for Bait of leader of Iran.
Brigadier General Rastegar Panah :We Can Hit Any American Target any whereand on any level it require






I am not IRGC Gen Salami: or IRGC Gen. Rastegar Panah .
i only speak for myself , I guarantee and promise that that IRI will use nuclear.......... after U.S used *Low-Yield * , after IRI stricks back all U.S Israeli sensors will detect DEU (depleted uranium) and usage such weapons.

you can all hold me acoutable in this forum if such war or limited conflict break out

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365915853749948422
@PeeD
Another picture tweeted by Trumpeteer Faran Jeffrey.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366010344993349632
*First stage, liquid fuel engine, intercepted, burnt and deflected to a house.*

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## Shawnee

Draco.IMF said:


> Is Iran prepared for such a scenario?
> Any chance to stand against such an escalation?








مهمترین حرف سلامی در کل زندگیش

من فکر نمیکنم این انفجار هسته ای بود و مدارکی دال بر تشعشع در محل نیست
قدرتش ظاهرا از یک دهم کیلوتن کمتره

ولی اینها به موقع صد در صد استفاده میشن
برای انبارداری نساختن برای استفاده در مواقع ضروری ساختن​

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## yavar

Shawnee said:


> مهمترین حرف سلامی در کل زندگیش
> 
> من فکر نمیکنم این انفجار هسته ای بود و مدارکی دال بر تشعشع در محل نیست
> قدرتش ظاهرا از یک دهم کیلوتن کمتره
> 
> ولی اینها به موقع صد در صد استفاده میشن
> برای انبارداری نساختن برای استفاده در مواقع ضروری ساختن​


i don't think he can read farsi
فارسی نمی تونه بخونه

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## Stryker1982

yavar said:


> i only speak for myself , I guarantee and promise that that IRI will use nuclear.......... after U.S used *Low-Yield * , after IRI stricks back all U.S Israeli sensors will detect DEU (depleted uranium) and usage such weapons.
> 
> you can all hold me acoutable in this forum if such war or limited conflict break out



This is why we have a nuclear program and are continuing to develop more advanced centrifuges. We need to reduce our breakout time as much as possible. Should the USA or Israel resort to nuclear weapons to disable these bases, the designs and centrifuges need to be in place to rapidly enrich to 90% and assemble a few warheads within 1 weeks time in smaller facilities.

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## yavar

Stryker1982 said:


> This is why we have a nuclear program and are continuing to develop more advanced centrifuges. We need to reduce our breakout time as much as possible. Should the USA or Israel resort to nuclear weapons to disable these bases, the designs and centrifuges need to be in place to rapidly enrich to 90% and assemble a few warheads within 1 weeks time in smaller facilities.



the scenario you talking about is NOT exist,

let say: the U.S attacks with Low-Yield nukes and we survive that, you think after 15 minutes that U.S satellite go over the impact point and realized that we have survive first strike they just going to leave it and walk way ??

let say they do walk way , and we start enriching to 90% and after week we have enough fissile material for Uranium bomb and start assambaling a warhead and after a month we have one or two or three warhead . the plutonium depending on type or even Thermo will be totally different timeline
let assume for argument's sake that, meaning we have to wait one half month and then after conflict is over we are going to strike back, really after everything is over and casualties are counted and public are wear we just going to star all over again.


let say we do strike back after we enriching to 90% assembled 3 warhead,
then again we run out of nuclear warhead and out stock reaches Zero and you think this time U.S will not retaliate heavely using deployed warhead ? and you think we ging to survive the second U.S strike ?? and you think that again the U.S going to give us one and half month to go make more nukes ?

this is why i made my first post specially for Iranian members so they come out of delusions and fantasy and start recognizing reality, with all of this simple info i just provided and my knowledge, I was talking about the reality of our capability and posture

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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> the scenario you talking about is NOT exist,
> 
> let say: the U.S attacks with Low-Yield nukes and we survive that, you think after 15 minutes that U.S satellite go over the impact point and realized that we have survive first strike they just going to leave it and walk way ??
> let say they do walk way , and we start enriching to 90% and after week we have enough fissile material and start assambaling a warhead and after a month we have one or two or three warhead .
> let assume for argument's sake, meaning we have to wait one half month and then after conflict is over we are going to strike back, really after everything is over and casualties are counted and public are wear we just going to star all over again.
> 
> 
> let say we do strike back after we nriching to 90% assembled 3 warhead,
> then again we run out of nuclear warhead and out stock reaches Zero and you think this time U.S will not retaliate heavely using deployed warhead ? and you think we ging to survive the second U.S strike ?? and you think that again the U.S going to give us one and half month to go make more nukes ?
> this is why i made my first post specially for Iranian members so they come out of delusions and fantasy and start recognizing reality



Are you just saying that Iran currently has nukes ready to go then? Or are you trying to allude to something else?

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## Shawnee

Blue In Green said:


> Are you just saying that Iran currently has nukes ready to go then? Or are you trying to allude to something else?



Or Don’t ask, don’t tell situation.

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## Blue In Green

Shawnee said:


> Or Don’t ask, don’t tell situation.



Well I guess the answer is indeed that, Iran has them but can't acknowledge their existence for obvious reasons.

Don't ask, don't tell indeed....

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## yavar

Blue In Green said:


> Are you just saying that Iran currently has nukes ready to go then? Or are you trying to allude to something else?


Pakistan scientist Dr Abdul Qadir Khan was* big ZERO* when it comes to Iran nuclear........ program. just smok screen to keep IAEA busy for 15 years.
google sreach *Vyacheslav Danilenko former soviet thermonuclear weapon expert.*


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...ons-and-treasons.427176/page-68#post-11602044

This is United Nation nuclear agency not me

First
*UNSCR 2231 has recognized iran as nuclear power if you should know . to educate yourself please google search nuclear power country so to find out what it meaning by international law and understand it does not mean at all nuclear electricity .
UN website NOT ME
resolution 2231 (2015) - the United Nations
http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/RES/2231(2015)*

2nd: The 2011 IAEA Iran report : the 1990 Marivan large-scale nuclear test .
which guess what U.S has provided to IAEA the satellite pictures .
this is IAEA websilte NOT ME
https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/gov2011-65.pdf

3rd: also known as PMD ( previous military dimension )

Frontline- April 13, 1993 (Iran and the Bomb)





++++++

Iran Exploding-bridgewire Wire detonator (EBW)
*EBW references from IAEA Board of Governors’ reports*
http://www.atomicreporters.com/2014/02/iran-new-developments-exploding-bridge-wire-ebw/
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding-bridgewire_detonator

++++++

Project Midan: Developing and Building an Underground Nuclear Test Site in Iran 
http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...uilding-an-underground-nuclear-test-site-in-i*

The secret part the Iran nuclear deal with US ( JCPOA )
U.S John kerry told IAEA not to publish the photos,
*Obama's secret Iran deals exposed*

+++++

People just google sreach Vycheslav V. Danilenko former Soviet scientist nuclear weapons expert .
our program had multi ................route, it would been even unwise and unreliableto to only relay one route, . and if you follow and study IRI Iran they are never interested in anything that the China offers them and always after Russian or western technology .
AQ Khan in our program was big zero compared to soviet union Vycheslav V. Danilenko thermonuclear weapon experts . AQ Khan was IAEA ghost chess before Israeli American quote Iran with real stuff

Vycheslav V. Danilenko former Soviet scientist nuclear weapons expert then you come to realization that* Abdul Qadeer Khan* story has almost zero rule in Iran program and AQ Khan it was just smoke screen cover up to keep IAEA busy by iranians to be used before we (iran ) got quote red handed

*Vyacheslav Danilenko*
NOT ME it is IAEA
he November 8, 2011 International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards report on Iran identifies a foreign expert that may have been important to Iran’s development of implosion detonation systems used in nuclear weapons. The Agency writes in the report that it has “strong indications that the development by Iran of the high explosives initiation system, and its development of the high speed diagnostic configuration used to monitor related experiments, were assisted by the work of a foreign expert who was not only knowledgeable in these technologies, but who, a Member State has informed the Agency, worked for much of his career with this technology in the nuclear weapon programme of the country of his origin.”

Information in other IAEA documents reviewed by ISIS identifies this person as Vycheslav V. Danilenko1. Born in 1934, Danilenko worked in the nuclear weapon complex at VNIITF, Chelyabinsk-70 for three decades. At VNIITF in the early 1960s, he was a member of the gas dynamics group and became involved in the study of the manufacture of synthetic diamonds. He worked with leading explosives experts in the Soviet nuclear weapons program and developed understanding of the fundamentals of detonation, including shock compression. In 1960, the head of VNIIF, B. I. Zababakhin, launched the institute’s research into the possibility of diamond synthesis by using the shock compression of graphite. Leading Soviet nuclear weapons experts were leaders in this effort in the early 1960s. In a recent book chapter Danilenko says that “experiments aimed at developing methods for synthesis were highly classified; for security reason, the results were initially contained only in secret reports from VNIITF.”2 According to IAEA officials, he likely had knowledge of the application of high explosives in the Soviet nuclear weapons program. Given his background and experience, this ex-Soviet nuclear weapons expert was well versed in key aspects of developing nuclear weapons.

Danilenko also has experience in the important area of the diagnostics of high explosions. His publications include work on high-speed photography and describe optical techniques by which fiber optic cables are used to capture the time of arrival of explosive shock waves.

After leaving VNIITF in either 1989 or 1991, Danilenko moved to Ukraine and established the company ALIT in Kiev, producing ultra-dispersed diamonds (UDD or nanodiamonds). He experienced economic difficulties by the mid-1990s. According to the IAEA, he contacted the Iranian embassy in mid-1995, offering his expertise on UDD. At the end of the year, he was contacted by Dr. Seyed Abbas Shahmoradi, who headed the Physics Research Center and also worked at the Sharif University of Technology.3 Danilenko signed a contract with Shahmoradi, according to IAEA documents.


+++++








Thanks to Obama for PMD

before Yukio Amano IAEA chief visit to Iran suddenly floods in Tehran province and Parchin area
* Sep 20, 2015*





then
samples taken by Iranian experts from Parchin military site with no IAEA inspectors present before close IAEA PMD case \ basically Iran curry out inspection itself and guess what Iran came out clean





and then

*IAEA Board of Governors closes Iran PMD case








IAEA Board of Governors closes Iran PMD case


The governing board of the International Atomic Energy Agency has decided to close Iran’s so-called PMD case.




www.presstv.com








*



CNN news analysis North Korea nuclear weapon program and miniaturization in 2013
people can draw their own conclusions






connect dots together then people can get good Idea where Iran nuclear program is and how it has come about

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## Stryker1982

yavar said:


> the scenario you talking about is NOT exist,
> 
> let say: the U.S attacks with Low-Yield nukes and we survive that, you think after 15 minutes that U.S satellite go over the impact point and realized that we have survive first strike they just going to leave it and walk way ??
> let say they do walk way , and we start enriching to 90% and after week we have enough fissile material and start assambaling a warhead and after a month we have one or two or three warhead .
> let assume for argument's sake, meaning we have to wait one half month and then after conflict is over we are going to strike back, really after everything is over and casualties are counted and public are wear we just going to star all over again.
> 
> 
> let say we do strike back after we nriching to 90% assembled 3 warhead,
> then again we run out of nuclear warhead and out stock reaches Zero and you think this time U.S will not retaliate heavely using deployed warhead ? and you think we ging to survive the second U.S strike ?? and you think that again the U.S going to give us one and half month to go make more nukes ?
> this is why i made my first post specially for Iranian members so they come out of delusions and fantasy and start recognizing reality



*You are completely missing the points here.*

This scenario is by far the most likely scenario. *You need to stop being naïve*. Everyone in the IRGC is aware of this reality. That a nuclear first strike by Israel and/or the United States is the most likely means of disabling nuclear hardened missile facilities. The Americans have armed their submarines with these low yield thermo nuclear weapons last year, and the Dimona nuclear facility in Israel is now active as of a week ago....

For some reason you just made up assumptions about my statement in that I never made. When did I say, they will walk away?

They will have no idea whether or not the bases are still functional after a strike. Only until it starts firing, or if by chance they will have detected mobile TELs escaping these facilities in case the gateways are destroyed. Secondly, they actually have to be within range of all these facilities. But that is not even the point I am trying to make

If you listened to what I was saying, the purpose for investments into nuclear R&D is to significantly reduce the breakout time to <1week. More importantly you have failed to note that Iran already has stockpiles of 20% enriched Uranium that can be enriched rapidly. You've for some reason out of all these years assumed these nuclear warheads are built one at a time. For example: Japan currently have enough weapons-grade plutonium to develop 1000 nuclear warheads. The most difficult aspect of enrichment is from 0-20, from 20-90% required an estimated 10% more Effort (SWU). Once this threshold is crossed. Iran is capable of using their *hypothetical *thousands of kilograms of 20% enrich Uranium to develop a dozen or so warheads rapidly in smaller facilities, with more advanced centrifuges. *This is the whole point of the argument. The whole purpose is to stockpile enriched uranium prior to conflict in case rapid nuclear breakout is required by the dozens of warheads. The purpose of Project AMAD was to design these warheads prior to conflict incase this need arises. This is the capability Iran is trying to develop and develop urgently. *We are not there yet unfortunately, but hopefully some day. Iran currently has 4 tons of UF6 stockpiled. You act as if it's the first time Iran has ever handled the nuclear enrichment cycle.


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## yavar

Blue In Green said:


> Are you just saying that Iran currently has nukes ready to go then?


the first sentence in your question is more of realty


Stryker1982 said:


> For some reason you just made up assumptions about my statement in that I never made. When did I say, they will walk away?


i never quote you or respond to you or your statements do i do not know what are you talking about

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## yavar

Stryker1982 said:


> They will have no idea whether or not the bases are still functional after a strike. Only until it starts firing, or if by chance they will have detected mobile TELs escaping these facilities in case the gateways are destroyed. Secondly, they actually have to be within range of all these facilities. But that is not even the point I am trying to make


i am very sorry and i do apologize for using this word. what childish analysis, for give me for say it this way.
last time we were about to strike U.S bases in Iraq in retaliation to murder of Haj Gassem Solimani, three days before strike that they had intelligence that we about to strike but they didn't know where,
that is why Trump on twitter keep issuing threats to detare

because of leak from with in Iran national security council,
they have many colabaters and Fifth column that is why they invaset alot in them



Stryker1982 said:


> If you listened to what I was saying, the purpose for investments into nuclear R&D is to significantly reduce the breakout time to <1week.


the problem with this sentence yours is the lack of knowledge about nuclear weapons and how they are made and assembled and getting operational


Stryker1982 said:


> * dozens of warheads. The purpose of Project AMAD *ons of UF6 stockpiled. You act as if it's the first time Iran has ever handled the nuclear enrichment cycle.


here again you don't know the project Amad
and you think that was only project which was raning at time.

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## yavar

Stryker1982 said:


> *. *We are not there yet unfortunately,


okay thanks for enlightening us.
but guess what, as it is look like things are escalating with U.S over nuclear program and soon you in for surprises.
at that point i will come back here in this forum and reminding you of your statment.

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## yavar

CBS program 60 minutes The survivors Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq






UAV drone images IRGC strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq 0:00
The intelligence officer U.S Aain Al-Asad base in Iraq told me hour before the strike that Iran fueling 27 it ballistic missiles to flatten this base 5:00,
images night vision camera at moment IRGC strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq 6:54,

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## aryobarzan

yavar said:


> CBS program 60 minutes The survivors Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq


Watched it too..Program was to portray US so smart they knew everything in advance..waited until Iran finished receiving the last commercial Sat photos before removing the material and personal..how smart they are and naive Iranians are ....lol made for Dump US public consumption....confessed Iranian missiles are accurate and deadly.


aryobarzan said:


> Watched it too..Program was to portray US so smart they knew everything in advance..waited until Iran finished receiving the last commercial Sat photos before removing the material and personal..how smart they are and naive Iranians are ....lol made for dumb US public consumption....confessed Iranian missiles are accurate and deadly.


@yavar ..100% with your assessments..read the IAEA report... Iran nuclear state ..it is..

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## Stryker1982

yavar said:


> CBS program 60 minutes The survivors Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq





aryobarzan said:


> Watched it too..Program was to portray US so smart they knew everything in advance..waited until Iran finished receiving the last commercial Sat photos before removing the material and personal..how smart they are and naive Iranians are ....lol made for Dump US public consumption....confessed Iranian missiles are accurate and deadly.
> 
> @yavar ..100% with your assessments..read the IAEA report... Iran nuclear state ..it is..



I still think they are lying about no equipment being destroyed. Although they never said that explicitly, they implied it. They know Iran was getting SAT photos of the base but they'd have no idea where Iran was going to strike in that base

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## aryobarzan

Stryker1982 said:


> I still think they are lying about no equipment being destroyed. Although they never said that explicitly, they implied it. They know Iran was getting SAT photos of the base but they'd have no idea where Iran was going to strike in that base


I believe Iran side story...Iran informed IRAQ government before the firing ... They (US) did not get a chance to get everyone out so used the shelters..but according to US..they are so brave that they left some personnel in the base so base operation continous...give me a break..your base is about to experience massive attack and you keep people there....

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## yavar

Stryker1982 said:


> I still think they are lying about no equipment being destroyed


this is what exposes his lies





I would estimate that the nearest rocket hit 300 feet from us, and as we walked around afterwards, there were helicopters in half and holes so big that you could park a van in them, John says.

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366010344993349632


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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


> this is what exposes his lies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would estimate that the nearest rocket hit 300 feet from us, and as we walked around afterwards, there were helicopters in half and holes so big that you could park a van in them, John says.



U.S. is counting on people not watching this interview since the average American would assume that the Danish military probably won't be in Iraq in the first place and Americans couldn't care to look at news sources outside of mainland America anyways (on average).

They are outright lying about 'minimal' damages, which brings me back to what I thought about the attack when it happened last year. Iran should have fired 25 more missiles and really sent home a poignant message they'll not soon forget.....

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## PeeD

VEVAK said:


> Your saying hitting a moving target on the ground from 2000km is harder than hitting airborne target at that range? Come on now!!!



Fog of war, you can't view and strike that deep into a country if its a peer-level opponent, but you can develop systems like S-500.
Point is: Its next to impossible to target mobile TELs at 2000km or even 500km at the onset of a high tech conflict.



VEVAK said:


> I very much doubt the U.S. was ever under the impression that they could use F-35's as the main delivery system to hit Natanz. No doubt F-35's would be used in the operation and used against Iranian IADS but not as the main payload delivery system for hitting Natanz it's self.



You are the tacair power advocate in the discussion: How would the U.S strike Natanz with tacair power?



VEVAK said:


> You can not create a unidimensional military and expect your enemy to idly sit by and not create a counter to that one capability!



Thats right because even a small amount of differeing assets force the opponent to invest into counters for those assets.



VEVAK said:


> If you create a military that is utterly incapable of countering areal targets beyond 200km what do you think your enemy is going to do? Of course they will develop capabilities around your weaknesses to try to take away any advantages you many have



How you want to operate 200km away if your opponent is absolute numerical superiority in airpower. Only special asymmetric airpower such as a Mig-31 or Simrogh bomber could achieve that. Normal acair is lost in that case



VEVAK said:


> Now under normal circumstances that would absolutely be ideal, however, when you have failed to properly acquire new aircrafts over decades on end then a smart leadership should have built up the budget needed to make up for it!



If you ask me, Irans industry is ready for fighter production in the 2030's.
At this point is just unwise luxury in invest into Tacair.

Some technology just needs a certain maturity level the overall industry and infrastructure of a country: Airpower

Some technology needs genius scientist and educated, skilled workforce, but less so industry:
Missiles

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## Blue In Green

PeeD said:


> Fog of war, you can't view and strike that deep into a country if its a peer-level opponent, but you can develop systems like S-500.
> Point is: Its next to impossible to target mobile TELs at 2000km or even 500km at the onset of a high tech conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the tacair power advocate in the discussion: How would the U.S strike Natanz with tacair power?
> 
> 
> 
> Thats right because even a small amount of differeing assets force the opponent to invest into counters for those assets.
> 
> 
> 
> How you want to operate 200km away if your opponent is absolute numerical superiority in airpower. Only special asymmetric airpower such as a Mig-31 or Simrogh bomber could achieve that. Normal acair is lost in that case
> 
> 
> 
> If you ask me, Irans industry is ready for fighter production in the 2030's.
> At this point is just unwise luxury in invest into Tacair.
> 
> Some technology just needs a certain maturity level the overall industry and infrastructure of a country: Airpower
> 
> Some technology needs genius scientist and educated, skilled workforce, but less so industry:
> Missiles



PeeD, your thoughts on the recent CBS 60 minutes news segment about the Ayn Al-Assad strike?

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## PeeD

Blue In Green said:


> PeeD, your thoughts on the recent CBS 60 minutes news segment about the Ayn Al-Assad strike?



U.S approved this release to show their public that a war with Iran would be devastating and JCPOA is the solution.

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## skyshadow

*Guess who???? Qiam warhead ? or Fateh 313 warhead ?






*


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## mohsen

PeeD said:


> U.S approved this release to show their public that a war with Iran would be devastating and JCPOA is the solution.


But I believe they are continuing their lies to seem tough, if there was a casualty we would have revenged...

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## VEVAK

PeeD said:


> U.S approved this release to show their public that a war with Iran would be devastating and JCPOA is the solution.



According to them 11 of 16 hit exactly where they were meant too. That's almost a 70% success rate which is a pretty high number for solid fuel BM's of that class especially fired is such limited quantities. 

It also shows how a sensor network could potentially save your assets from an initial 1st wave strike and the importance and value of having a sufficient number of sat's and sensors deployed. However in this case since the attack was in Iraq I very much doubt Iran wasn't aware of what the U.S. was doing on the ground and the U.S. would have to be delusional to think that commercial sat photos where Iran's only source. 

When they asked what did you learn so far? His 1st response was "Their missiles are accurate" which is basically the main message Iran wanted to convey! So mission accomplished!

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## yavar

VEVAK said:


> According to them 11 of 16 hit exactly where they were meant too. That's almost a 70% success rate



total lie everybody on iraqi kurdistan heard explosion and felt waves at time of strike and all of shattered glass .
Harrier base was striked, they can say we miss the target but cant say they didnt receive it.

aftermath of U.S. Ain Al-Asad & Erbil Iraq bases after Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike






the testimony of publication who present at time is the proof

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## aryobarzan

yavar said:


> total lie everybody on iraqi kurdistan heard explosion and felt waves at time of strike.
> Harrier base was striked, they can say we miss the target and all of shattered glass but cant say they didnt receive it.
> 
> aftermath of U.S. Ain Al-Asad & Erbil Iraq bases after Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the testimony of publication who present at time is the proof


There are two national armed forces in the world where the "reputation" matters more than actual Performance. One is US and the other one Israel....

US will never admit to taking a beating from a "middle power" nation such as Iran.....Israel will never admit any defeat until Iranian soldiers are actually sitting on Knesset chairs drinking tea...lol

I do not know if this 60 min video is already posted but very interesting indeed.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366318455943802880

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## Stryker1982

aryobarzan said:


> There are two national armed forces in the world where the "reputation" matters more than actual Performance. One is US and the other one Israel....
> 
> US will never admit to taking a beating from a "middle power" nation such as Iran.....Israel will never admit any defeat until Iranian soldiers are actually sitting on Knesset chairs drinking tea...lol
> 
> I do not know if this 60 min video is already posted but very interesting indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366318455943802880



Anyone notice that little smoke plume here before the first missile impacts?






VEVAK said:


> According to them 11 of 16 hit exactly where they were meant too. That's almost a 70% success rate which is a pretty high number for solid fuel BM's of that class especially fired is such limited quantities.
> 
> It also shows how a sensor network could potentially save your assets from an initial 1st wave strike and the importance and value of having a sufficient number of sat's and sensors deployed. However in this case since the attack was in Iraq I very much doubt Iran wasn't aware of what the U.S. was doing on the ground and the U.S. would have to be delusional to think that commercial sat photos where Iran's only source.
> 
> When they asked what did you learn so far? His 1st response was "Their missiles are accurate" which is basically the main message Iran wanted to convey! So mission accomplished!



30% fail rate seems like a pretty expensive issue. Regardless, the fact that you can basically paralyze one of the largest bases in the world for several hours with just 11 missiles is mind blowing.

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## raptor22

skyshadow said:


> *Guess who???? Qiam warhead ? or Fateh 313 warhead ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 721203
> *


That means warhead hit the ground & not exploded above the ground due to having no fuse? does it limit impact?


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366439846886191106

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## OldTwilight

Draco.IMF said:


> Is Iran prepared for such a scenario?
> Any chance to stand against such an escalation?



no , in the first hours of Wars , half of IRI officials are nowhere to be found ... it will collapse from within ... this is common theme for regime with very high level of corruption ... and it has nothing to military capability of a country

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## Stryker1982

OldTwilight said:


> no , in the first hours of Wars , half of IRI officials are nowhere to be found ... it will collapse from within ... this is common theme for regime with very high level of corruption ... and it has nothing to military capability of a country



Personally, I don't think any of these civilian officials have the courage to fight what so ever.

Their may be the IRGC that have the people who are motivated and courageous to fight but I'm under the impression that civilian leadership will.....as you say, be nowhere to be seen and will wish to surrender rapidly.

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## OldTwilight

Stryker1982 said:


> Personally, I don't think any of these civilian officials have the courage to fight what so ever.
> 
> Their may be the IRGC that have the people who are motivated and courageous to fight but I'm under the impression that civilian leadership will.....as you say, be nowhere to be seen and will wish to surrender rapidly.



well , this corruption and mis-managment is wide spread , even IRGC and Army are effected by it ... so , any war with any USA will be end of IR which is not Republic anymore and its more like oligarchy these days ...

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## Hack-Hook

yavar said:


> CBS program 60 minutes The survivors Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UAV drone images IRGC strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq 0:00
> The intelligence officer U.S Aain Al-Asad base in Iraq told me hour before the strike that Iran fueling 27 it ballistic missiles to flatten this base 5:00,
> images night vision camera at moment IRGC strike on U.S Al-Asad base in Iraq 6:54,


fuel 27 missile ?
how , those were solid fuel missile


skyshadow said:


> *Guess who???? Qiam warhead ? or Fateh 313 warhead ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 721203
> *


not much circular my guess is a Fateh variant.

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## Stryker1982

OldTwilight said:


> well , this corruption and mis-managment is wide spread , even IRGC and Army are effected by it ... so , any war with any USA will be end of IR which is not Republic anymore and its more like oligarchy these days ...





Hack-Hook said:


> fuel 27 missile ?
> how , those were solid fuel missile



They made a wrong assessment about Iran as usual and the types of missiles they'd use, I have no clue where they got 27 from but is bad intellegence.

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## skyshadow

raptor22 said:


> That means warhead hit the ground & not exploded above the ground due to having no fuse? does it limit impact?


yes warhead was detonated on impact, well depends on what kind of target you have for maximum impact on soft targets you need to detonated your warhead few meters above ground but if you want to rip your target apart and kill every one hidden in bunker or give them brain injuries and make the ground shake then you let the warhead do its job by hitting the ground first



*Iranian missile detonated on impact, it makes a small but powerful earthquake for 300 meters 











Iranian missile detonated above Target, it makes no earthquake but it has maximum kill radius















*

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## Shawnee

yavar said:


> Pakistan scientist Dr Abdul Qadir Khan was* big ZERO* when it comes to Iran nuclear........ program. just smok screen to keep IAEA busy for 15 years.
> google sreach *Vyacheslav Danilenko former soviet thermonuclear weapon expert.*
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...ons-and-treasons.427176/page-68#post-11602044
> 
> This is United Nation nuclear agency not me
> 
> First
> *UNSCR 2231 has recognized iran as nuclear power if you should know . to educate yourself please google search nuclear power country so to find out what it meaning by international law and understand it does not mean at all nuclear electricity .
> UN website NOT ME
> resolution 2231 (2015) - the United Nations
> http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/RES/2231(2015)*
> 
> 2nd: The 2011 IAEA Iran report : the 1990 Marivan large-scale nuclear test .
> which guess what U.S has provided to IAEA the satellite pictures .
> this is IAEA websilte NOT ME
> https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/gov2011-65.pdf
> 
> 3rd: also known as PMD ( previous military dimension )
> 
> Frontline- April 13, 1993 (Iran and the Bomb)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ++++++
> 
> Iran Exploding-bridgewire Wire detonator (EBW)
> *EBW references from IAEA Board of Governors’ reports*
> http://www.atomicreporters.com/2014/02/iran-new-developments-exploding-bridge-wire-ebw/
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding-bridgewire_detonator
> 
> ++++++
> 
> Project Midan: Developing and Building an Underground Nuclear Test Site in Iran
> http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...uilding-an-underground-nuclear-test-site-in-i*
> 
> The secret part the Iran nuclear deal with US ( JCPOA )
> U.S John kerry told IAEA not to publish the photos,
> *Obama's secret Iran deals exposed*
> 
> +++++
> 
> People just google sreach Vycheslav V. Danilenko former Soviet scientist nuclear weapons expert .
> our program had multi ................route, it would been even unwise and unreliableto to only relay one route, . and if you follow and study IRI Iran they are never interested in anything that the China offers them and always after Russian or western technology .
> AQ Khan in our program was big zero compared to soviet union Vycheslav V. Danilenko thermonuclear weapon experts . AQ Khan was IAEA ghost chess before Israeli American quote Iran with real stuff
> 
> Vycheslav V. Danilenko former Soviet scientist nuclear weapons expert then you come to realization that*Abdul Qadeer Khan* story has almost zero rule in Iran program and AQ Khan it was just smoke screen cover up to keep IAEA busy by iranians to be used before we (iran ) got quote red handed
> 
> *Vyacheslav Danilenko*
> NOT ME it is IAEA
> he November 8, 2011 International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards report on Iran identifies a foreign expert that may have been important to Iran’s development of implosion detonation systems used in nuclear weapons. The Agency writes in the report that it has “strong indications that the development by Iran of the high explosives initiation system, and its development of the high speed diagnostic configuration used to monitor related experiments, were assisted by the work of a foreign expert who was not only knowledgeable in these technologies, but who, a Member State has informed the Agency, worked for much of his career with this technology in the nuclear weapon programme of the country of his origin.”
> 
> Information in other IAEA documents reviewed by ISIS identifies this person as Vycheslav V. Danilenko1. Born in 1934, Danilenko worked in the nuclear weapon complex at VNIITF, Chelyabinsk-70 for three decades. At VNIITF in the early 1960s, he was a member of the gas dynamics group and became involved in the study of the manufacture of synthetic diamonds. He worked with leading explosives experts in the Soviet nuclear weapons program and developed understanding of the fundamentals of detonation, including shock compression. In 1960, the head of VNIIF, B. I. Zababakhin, launched the institute’s research into the possibility of diamond synthesis by using the shock compression of graphite. Leading Soviet nuclear weapons experts were leaders in this effort in the early 1960s. In a recent book chapter Danilenko says that “experiments aimed at developing methods for synthesis were highly classified; for security reason, the results were initially contained only in secret reports from VNIITF.”2 According to IAEA officials, he likely had knowledge of the application of high explosives in the Soviet nuclear weapons program. Given his background and experience, this ex-Soviet nuclear weapons expert was well versed in key aspects of developing nuclear weapons.
> 
> Danilenko also has experience in the important area of the diagnostics of high explosions. His publications include work on high-speed photography and describe optical techniques by which fiber optic cables are used to capture the time of arrival of explosive shock waves.
> 
> After leaving VNIITF in either 1989 or 1991, Danilenko moved to Ukraine and established the company ALIT in Kiev, producing ultra-dispersed diamonds (UDD or nanodiamonds). He experienced economic difficulties by the mid-1990s. According to the IAEA, he contacted the Iranian embassy in mid-1995, offering his expertise on UDD. At the end of the year, he was contacted by Dr. Seyed Abbas Shahmoradi, who headed the Physics Research Center and also worked at the Sharif University of Technology.3 Danilenko signed a contract with Shahmoradi, according to IAEA documents.
> 
> 
> +++++
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to Obama for PMD
> 
> before Yukio Amano IAEA chief visit to Iran suddenly floods in Tehran province and Parchin area
> * Sep 20, 2015*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then
> samples taken by Iranian experts from Parchin military site with no IAEA inspectors present before close IAEA PMD case \ basically Iran curry out inspection itself and guess what Iran came out clean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and then
> 
> *IAEA Board of Governors closes Iran PMD case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAEA Board of Governors closes Iran PMD case
> 
> 
> The governing board of the International Atomic Energy Agency has decided to close Iran’s so-called PMD case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.presstv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> CNN news analysis North Korea nuclear weapon program and miniaturization in 2013
> people can draw their own conclusions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> connect dots together then people can get good Idea where Iran nuclear program is and how it has come about



Yavar jaan

I will add this super important video again that is ignored by most of us:






- YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.




youtu.be





This is not an easy task at all. Only Iran can do this.

You will need spherical array of explosives with less than nanoseconds of trigger to have a chance of symmetrical explosion.

Now think super critical:

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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> *Iranian missile detonated above Target, it makes no earthquake but it has maximum kill radius
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Interesting. If I want to cover larger area, lets say eradicate soft targets then I would detonate much higher to cover larger radius from conical shaped charges filled with shrapnel. Charges needs to be directed to secure maximum damage and direct all that kinetic potential on the ground. I guess Iranian engineers have a vast area to play with. 
If someone is hiding in a bunker then it is not necessary to hit the bunker you just need to land one in front of the entrance of the bunker and let the huge increase and decrease of pressure do the work on live targets.

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## skyshadow

scimitar19 said:


> Interesting. If I want to cover larger area, lets say eradicate soft targets then I would detonate much higher to cover larger radius from conical shaped charges filled with shrapnel. Charges needs to be directed to secure maximum damage and direct all that kinetic potential on the ground. I guess Iranian engineers have a vast area to play with.
> If someone is hiding in a bunker then it is not necessary to hit the bunker you just need to land one in front of the entrance of the bunker and let the huge increase and decrease of pressure do the work on live targets.


exactly

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## Raghfarm007

Watch the above video with from 10.20 mins. Stacy Coleman say that there were no fatalities.... then swallos a big visible gulp....this is a CLASSIC sign of lying. They are clearly hiding big things.....

Because the US is made up of mentally stunted people, they can keep repeating ridiculous things like "it was a MIRICLE that no one died".
The child like mind of Ameritards still belives in fairytails... so "miricles" like this are belived.
I suspect that when evidence comes out that there were deaths as a result of the missile attack.... the US will say "it was a MIRICLE that only foreign contractors were killed"

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366519947451637764








Military sources: Government forces backed by tribes regained the past two days all the sites that were controlled by the Houthi militia within weeks of the most violent escalation towards Marib, with the exception of Camp Coufal, which is close to r


Military sources: Government forces backed by tribes regained the past two days all the sites that were controlled by the Houthi militia within weeks of the most violent escalation towards Marib, with the exception of Camp Coufal, which is close to retaking it, while the militia suffered...




yemen.liveuamap.com













Saudi Arabia: 5 civilians were injured as a military projectile fell in a village in the Jizan region, launched by the Houthi militia Jizan - Interactive map of Yemen war - Yemen news live map- yemen.liveuamap.com


Saudi Arabia: 5 civilians were injured as a military projectile fell in a village in the Jizan region, launched by the Houthi militia. Yemen Civil war and Saudi-led intervention news on live map in English




yemen.liveuamap.com

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## Raghfarm007



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## VEVAK

yavar said:


> total lie everybody on iraqi kurdistan heard explosion and felt waves at time of strike and all of shattered glass .
> Harrier base was striked, they can say we miss the target but cant say they didnt receive it.
> 
> aftermath of U.S. Ain Al-Asad & Erbil Iraq bases after Iran IRGC ballistic missile strike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the testimony of publication who present at time is the proof



I don't think you truly appreciate what an impressive number 11 of 16 (Near 70% success rate) truly is! Even with subsonic cruise missiles, it may not have been a great number but it would have been more than acceptable! 

For a solid fuel missile where the entire body of the rocket heats up to extreme temperatures and at the same time has to travel at extreme speeds and reaches it's target in mere minutes with only seconds to properly adjust it's trajectory during terminal guidance and to hit with such a high success rate & such accuracy, it was beyond impressive! 
And no doubt your success rate would naturally increase as you fired more shots.... 

But if you think your going to get a 100% success rate and every missile has to hit its target every single time that's just not realistic plus the amount of money Iran would have to spend on each missile to ensure something even close to that would overall end up costing more than the cost of 2 missiles.
Iran should instead focus on mass production & storage. Quality improvement will naturally come the more experience they gain.

To simply disable such a base for any significant amount of time Iran at the very least would have to fire +100 BM + 100 UCAV's in the 1st wave alone.

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## Surenas

VEVAK said:


> To simply disable such a base for any significant amount of time Iran at the very least would have to fire +100 BM + 100 UCAV's in the 1st wave alone.



It depends. 

In any chaotic war situation, it would take far less missiles to psychologically and physically eliminate a significant amount of soldiers at the base, either through brain injuries or (mortal) wounds. The attack on Al Asad was just a demonstration of ability and didn't intended to disable it. Completely different when shit really hits the fan and those at the base have far less time to prepare for impact.

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## Stryker1982

Raghfarm007 said:


> Watch the above video with from 10.20 mins. Stacy Coleman say that there were no fatalities.... then swallos a big visible gulp....this is a CLASSIC sign of lying. They are clearly hiding big things.....
> 
> Because the US is made up of mentally stunted people, they can keep repeating ridiculous things like "it was a MIRICLE that no one died".
> The child like mind of Ameritards still belives in fairytails... so "miricles" like this are belived.
> I suspect that when evidence comes out that there were deaths as a result of the missile attack.... the US will say "it was a MIRICLE that only foreign contractors were killed"



You can clearly tell that the strike has taken a serious mental toll on these troops. They all look like they don't sleep and/or are severely depressed.

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## Stryker1982

Highly informative thread regarding 60 mins episode on Ain Al-Assad and CENTCOM commander McKenzie's claims.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366804512732766211
He notes multiple problems with detail: *The following are solely his words, not mine:

Problem 1:* The story could not have occurred on the timeline that McKenzie describes. There is a big time gap between when a picture is taken ("collection time") and when the image is available to customers ("delivery time"). The image has to go from the satellite, to a ground station, then to the company, and finally to the customer. In reality, only a very small number of commercial satellite imagery providers like @planet offer images on anything like the timeline implied by McKenzie. More likely, McKenzie doesn't understand what he's saying because he could have moved his forces after the satellite collected the image. If McKenzie wasted several hours after collection waiting for the image to be *delivered*, he should be relieved of command for incompetence.

*Problem 2: *Gen. McKenzie claims the satellite image showed "airplanes on the ground and people working" in the last image before he moved them. It's uncommon to see piloted aircraft at Ain Al Asad out in the open and the resolution isn't good enough to see "people working." But here's the thing. We do often see UAVs and helicopters out in the open. McKenzie did not move those, at least not to a safe distance. They were still parked in the open near the craters. And at least one helicopter was damaged in the strike.





*Problem 3: *I can't find any evidence that any commercial satellite firm offered for sale a picture from the days before the strike. The most recent pre-strike images from @planetlabs and @airbus were taken December 30, more than a week prior. You can get a sense of what images were available from a reseller like @ApolloMapping. I just don't see the commercial image that Iran could have purchased, as McKenize claims. I can't prove one doesn't exist, but who sold it? When?





*Problem 4:* Iran did show high-resolution satellite images of Ain Al Asad from BEFORE and AFTER the strike. The BEFORE image that Iran showed, however, was taken at least 11 days, and very likely more than that, prior to the strike based on the structures that are visible.





It seems very unlikely that Iran possessed a more recent image of the base as Hajizadeh was perfectly willing to show fresh commercial images from AFTER the strike that were only a day old in his briefing. Generals make up stories all the time. But this one is pernicious because it implicates commercial satellite imagery in an attack on American forces. But for near-real time targeting, Iran is far more likely to use a drone than a month-old satellite image. What's going on here?
After we published images of the damage from attack, I was told some people at @DeptofDefense were pretty upset with me. Then-SecDef Mark Esper initially downplayed the strike, calling the damage "nothing I would describe as major." The images made him seem untruthful. I would say that it was Esper saying untruthful things that made him seem untruthful. But the bottom line is that we use commercial satellite imagery to hold poweful people accountable. Some powerful people don't like that! I don't know whether McKenzie made up his tall tale himself or just embellished one that was going around. But it seems like a story someone made up to paint OSINT as aiding the enemy. Just keep in mind, the goal isn't to protect the troops, it's to protect their own asses.

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> Highly informative thread regarding 60 mins episode on Ain Al-Assad and CENTCOM commander McKenzie's claims.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366804512732766211
> He notes multiple problems with detail: *The following are solely his words, not mine:
> 
> Problem 1:* The story could not have occurred on the timeline that McKenzie describes. There is a big time gap between when a picture is taken ("collection time") and when the image is available to customers ("delivery time"). The image has to go from the satellite, to a ground station, then to the company, and finally to the customer. In reality, only a very small number of commercial satellite imagery providers like @planet offer images on anything like the timeline implied by McKenzie. More likely, McKenzie doesn't understand what he's saying because he could have moved his forces after the satellite collected the image. If McKenzie wasted several hours after collection waiting for the image to be *delivered*, he should be relieved of command for incompetence.
> 
> *Problem 2: *Gen. McKenzie claims the satellite image showed "airplanes on the ground and people working" in the last image before he moved them. It's uncommon to see piloted aircraft at Ain Al Asad out in the open and the resolution isn't good enough to see "people working." But here's the thing. We do often see UAVs and helicopters out in the open. McKenzie did not move those, at least not to a safe distance. They were still parked in the open near the craters. And at least one helicopter was damaged in the strike.
> View attachment 721544
> 
> 
> *Problem 3: *I can't find any evidence that any commercial satellite firm offered for sale a picture from the days before the strike. The most recent pre-strike images from @planetlabs and @airbus were taken December 30, more than a week prior. You can get a sense of what images were available from a reseller like @ApolloMapping. I just don't see the commercial image that Iran could have purchased, as McKenize claims. I can't prove one doesn't exist, but who sold it? When?
> View attachment 721545
> 
> 
> *Problem 4:* Iran did show high-resolution satellite images of Ain Al Asad from BEFORE and AFTER the strike. The BEFORE image that Iran showed, however, was taken at least 11 days, and very likely more than that, prior to the strike based on the structures that are visible.
> View attachment 721547
> 
> 
> It seems very unlikely that Iran possessed a more recent image of the base as Hajizadeh was perfectly willing to show fresh commercial images from AFTER the strike that were only a day old in his briefing. Generals make up stories all the time. But this one is pernicious because it implicates commercial satellite imagery in an attack on American forces. But for near-real time targeting, Iran is far more likely to use a drone than a month-old satellite image. What's going on here?
> After we published images of the damage from attack, I was told some people at @DeptofDefense were pretty upset with me. Then-SecDef Mark Esper initially downplayed the strike, calling the damage "nothing I would describe as major." The images made him seem untruthful. I would say that it was Esper saying untruthful things that made him seem untruthful. But the bottom line is that we use commercial satellite imagery to hold poweful people accountable. Some powerful people don't like that! I don't know whether McKenzie made up his tall tale himself or just embellished one that was going around. But it seems like a story someone made up to paint OSINT as aiding the enemy. Just keep in mind, the goal isn't to protect the troops, it's to protect their own asses.



I just read this thread on Twitter and it made my entire day lol. We knew the Americans were going to lie about what happened (100%) but to go to this extent in order to just fabricate stuff is beyond dishonorable. 

Well, I guess now (if you choose to take this professors side) we have our answer.

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## Stryker1982

Blue In Green said:


> I just read this thread on Twitter and it made my entire day lol. We knew the Americans were going to lie about what happened (100%) but to go to this extent in order to just fabricate stuff is beyond dishonorable.
> 
> Well, I guess now (if you choose to take this professors side) we have our answer.



It makes me wonder how much they truly lie about. Remember shortly after the attack their was a string of suicides in the US military that were unprecedented? We knew or at least highly suspected they cleaned up the wreckages before showing the images to the world, I wonder if they hid a few deaths as well.....

This same McKenize said that Iran *fueled *up to 27 missiles, despite the fact these are solid-fuel missiles Imao and the obvious choice of a strike like this would be Fateh series.... If you are a CENTCOM commander you should know every single thing about Iran and it seems he doesn't know the most basic.

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## Raghfarm007

Do you guys remember the "killing of Bin laden, where they claimed that the white house was watching the opperation live?!! Then they said they threw his body in the sea so they had no eveidnce to ever present?!!!

It all turned out to be total lies...... like I said, the Ameritard population is kept in a child like mindset, so they dont questin these stpid stories.

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## yavar

Raghfarm007 said:


> Do you guys remember the "killing of Bin laden, where they claimed that the white house was watching the opperation live?!!




sorry brother i am sorry to say they did watch live, the RQ-170 were present in Pakistan.
Iran has aired images from Pakistan recovered from RQ-170.


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## Ich

Raghfarm007 said:


> Do you guys remember the "killing of Bin laden, where they claimed that the white house was watching the opperation live?!! Then they said they threw his body in the sea so they had no eveidnce to ever present?!!!
> 
> It all turned out to be total lies...... like I said, the Ameritard population is kept in a child like mindset, so they dont questin these stpid stories.



Well, at least i can support "the Ameritard population is kept in a child like mindset". For all other i do not find any pro nor con. Only unprovable statements.


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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366519947451637764

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## Mr Iran Eye

*Iran DOD domestically produce MLRS Fajr_5_C 333mm Artillery guided Rocket*

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## Sineva

Heres an excellent twitter thread unroll that I think everyone should read,its a pretty effective debunking of the [rather ridiculous] claims made by an american general about the ayn alasad strike during a recent [march 1st] 60 minutes interview.
*You should watch this excerpt from the 60 minutes interview first,tho`*
Also get a load of just how eagerly the interviewer is lapping this shit up.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366183656138678278*The debunking:*
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1366804512732766211.html

And heres the twitter thread in question and its responses,some of which are a little bit humorous :

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366804512732766211
Whats rather interesting tho,is that this is in complete opposition to the other claims that the strike was nothing more that just a bit of "face saving" by the iranians who were "very careful" not to kill anyone and provided "plenty of early warning" to the americans.Indeed from the sounds of this the iranians clearly thought that they`d be hitting an airbase literally chock full of planes and people.
So which one is it?,inquiring minds want to know?

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## Sina-1

Sineva said:


> Heres an excellent twitter thread unroll that I think everyone should read,its a pretty effective debunking of the [rather ridiculous] claims made by an american general about the ayn alasad strike during a recent [march 1st] 60 minutes interview.
> *You should watch this excerpt from the 60 minutes interview first,tho`*
> Also get a load of just how eagerly the interviewer is lapping this shit up.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366183656138678278*The debunking:*
> https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1366804512732766211.html
> 
> And heres the twitter thread in question and its responses,some of which are a little bit humorous :
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366804512732766211
> Whats rather interesting tho,is that this is in complete opposition to the other claims that the strike was nothing more that just a bit of "face saving" by the iranians who were "very careful" not to kill anyone and provided "plenty of early warning" to the americans.Indeed from the sounds of this the iranians clearly thought that they`d be hitting an airbase literally chock full of planes and people.
> So which one is it?,inquiring minds want to know?


Its well know and documented that irgc told the government about the planned attack, hours prior. The government then warned the Iraqi government which in turn leaked it to the Americans.
Early warning and/or waiting for last satellite image download seems overkill if the information has already been leaked to you. Everybody can be Nostradamus when they have complete intel.

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## VEVAK

Surenas said:


> It depends.
> 
> In any chaotic war situation, it would take far less missiles to psychologically and physically eliminate a significant amount of soldiers at the base, either through brain injuries or (mortal) wounds. The attack on Al Asad was just a demonstration of ability and didn't intended to disable it. Completely different when shit really hits the fan and those at the base have far less time to prepare for impact.



Clearly Iran had no intention of causing max casualties or even inflict max damage against US assets. The main goal very clearly was to show U.S. leadership Iranian Missile capabilities so they don't miss calculate on what the result of a direct conflict with Iran would look like. 

That said, even if the U.S. had no idea that Iranian missiles where coming and even if Iran had fired 2X as many missiles (32 BM) at best you'd be looking at disruption of operations of only a portion of the base for a limited period. Ain al asad is a large base so even 100 BM unless backed by 100's of subsequent PGM strikes (Fighters or UCAVs,...) leaves the door open for them to reorganize around and make use of areas and equipment on the base that was not damaged. 

(14) Breaking USA declassified footage of the Iranian ballistic attack on base Ain Al Asad in Iraq - YouTube 

To take out a base like Ain Al Assad you need to fire upwards of 400-500 BM equipped with various types of conventional warheads and even then you wouldn't be destroying everything you'll just destroy enough that an enemy would consider it lost. 

So Iran at the very least needs to be ready to fire 1000 BM at the top 10 US bases(100 per) and follow up those attacks with twice as many PGM strikes and that's just for the top 10 US bases within 1000km of Iran.

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## Surenas

VEVAK said:


> Clearly Iran had no intention of causing max casualties or even inflict max damage against US assets. The main goal very clearly was to show U.S. leadership Iranian Missile capabilities so they don't miss calculate on what the result of a direct conflict with Iran would look like.
> 
> That said, even if the U.S. had no idea that Iranian missiles where coming and even if Iran had fired 2X as many missiles (32 BM) at best you'd be looking at disruption of operations of only a portion of the base for a limited period. Ain al asad is a large base so even 100 BM unless backed by 100's of subsequent PGM strikes (Fighters or UCAVs,...) leaves the door open for them to reorganize around and make use of areas and equipment on the base that was not damaged.
> 
> (14) Breaking USA declassified footage of the Iranian ballistic attack on base Ain Al Asad in Iraq - YouTube
> 
> To take out a base like Ain Al Assad you need to fire upwards of 400-500 BM equipped with various types of conventional warheads and even then you wouldn't be destroying everything you'll just destroy enough that an enemy would consider it lost.
> 
> So Iran at the very least needs to be ready to fire 1000 BM at the top 10 US bases(100 per) and follow up those attacks with twice as many PGM strikes and that's just for the top 10 US bases within 1000km of Iran.



Indeed, you don't need to hit every corner of the base to disable it. But considering the fact that a base like Ain al Asad host US troops in only a specific section on its area, one doesn't simply have to take into account the entirety of the base.

Also bear in mind that the Americans aren't likely to continue operations at such vulnerable bases in case of war or after a significant BM strike by Iran. Iraq will be contested waters for the US in an armed conflict and an enduring threat posed by Iran's missiles/drones will be enough for the US to quickly seek withdrawal.

That is why the Americans have recently scouted potential bases in western KSA, where they would host troops they'd drawdown from their more vulnerbale bases.

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## Stryker1982

Surenas said:


> Also bear in mind that the Americans aren't likely to continue operations at such vulnerable bases in case of war or after a significant BM strike by Iran. Iraq will be contested waters for the US in an armed conflict and an enduring threat posed by Iran's missiles/drones will be enough for the US to quickly seek withdrawal.



This is the key point. No American is going to continue operating the base while missiles are falling in another section of it. Regardless of the size.

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## VEVAK

Stryker1982 said:


> This is the key point. No American is going to continue operating the base while missiles are falling in another section of it. Regardless of the size.



While missiles continue to fall, no, but Iran doesn't have an unlimited number of missiles nor will Iran have an unlimited amount of time to fire it's missiles before they are eventually targeted. 
In a conflict with the U.S. Iran would either have to use it's missiles in sufficient quantities to degrade enemy capabilities to a sufficient level rather quickly (especially targets within ~1000km) or risk loosing them. 
Use it or lose it, Saddam had to learn that the hard way.
Assuming your enemy is impotent and miscalculating the resolve and capabilities of your enemy is the worst mistake Iran could make. Doshman keh bi kar nashesteh! They are not putting hypersonic Missiles on bombers just for the fun of it.... Just as Iran is not putting TBM inside buried containers for the fun of it....
It's human nature to adapt and it really doesn't matter if your Iranian or American or Saudi or Yemeni...

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## Bahram Esfandiari

VEVAK said:


> While missiles continue to fall, no, but Iran doesn't have an unlimited number of missiles nor will Iran have an unlimited amount of time to fire it's missiles before they are eventually targeted.
> In a conflict with the U.S. Iran would either have to use it's missiles in sufficient quantities to degrade enemy capabilities to a sufficient level rather quickly (especially targets within ~1000km) or risk loosing them.
> Use it or lose it, Saddam had to learn that the hard way.
> Assuming your enemy is impotent and miscalculating the resolve and capabilities of your enemy is the worst mistake Iran could make. Doshman keh bi kar nashesteh! They are not putting hypersonic Missiles on bombers just for the fun of it.... Just as Iran is not putting TBM inside buried containers for the fun of it....
> It's human nature to adapt and it really doesn't matter if your Iranian or American or Saudi or Yemeni...


When Iran struck Ain Al Assad last January the Americans cowering in their shelters were too scared to come out well after the Missiles stopped landing and when they did they were not exactly in tip top shape. They were too busy vomiting and suffering traumatic brain injuries in order to carry out effective operations. You are talking like they are sheltering from mortar attacks. these missile might be survivable for the personnel that seek adequate protection but they do not survive such intensive bombardments unaffected. If Iranian commanders are worth their salt they will use the timing of the U.S personnel tacking cover to send in waves of suicide drones/ manned fighter bombers to further target and degrade their bases while their personnel are taking cover.

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## VEVAK

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> When Iran struck Ain Al Assad last January the Americans cowering in their shelters were too scared to come out well after the Missiles stopped landing and when they did they were not exactly in tip top shape. They were too busy vomiting and suffering traumatic brain injuries in order to carry out effective operations. You are talking like they are sheltering from mortar attacks. these missile might be survivable for the personnel that seek adequate protection but they do not survive such intensive bombardments unaffected. If Iranian commanders are worth their salt they will use the timing of the U.S personnel tacking cover to send in waves of suicide drones/ manned fighter bombers to further target and degrade their bases while their personnel are taking cover.




Again, Iran's attack even though limited was demoralizing because it came as a shock to the psyche of the U.S. troops on the ground who had neither seen nor expected nor even known or herd of other US soldiers ever witnessing something like that. 
American soldiers az koh pambeh sokhteh nashodan keh! People are people and it's human nature to adapt and it really doesn't matter where you are from! 







Iran's attack was a shock & awe because the perception and psyche of the US soldiers on the ground was that they where the strongest military on the planet and no country would ever dare attack them in such a manner and even if they did their military was equipped with all type of defensive systems that would protect their bases. Simply put, in their psyche and in their subconscious they where in a safe place, even while they where going inside bunkers to take cover, subconsciously, they did NOT expect something like that. But now that they lived through it, a subsequent attack of that magnitude would not paralyze them to that extent because they have lived through it and even for US soldiers who weren't there, subconsciously, they have started to adapt to the possibility of being bombarded in a place they previously presumed to be shielded. And I am NOT saying it wouldn't effect them, simply that it's psychological effects would be ~5% less than last time and that trend will continue with subsequent attacks allowing them to adapt...


So to get the same demoralizing effect, Iran can't afford to fire 10 BM at a time at US bases over a span of days because they will adapt both psychologically and militarily because it is human nature to do so.... 

Meaning if the US starts a war, Iran within 24hrs needs to be ready to fire an average of 100 BM at each of the top 10 US bases in the region and as you said follow those attacks up with UCAV, LACM,....

There is no doubt in my mind that Iran will follow up it's BM strikes with subsequent PGM strike. The only & main question is the extent and scale of Iran's initial BM strike. 
According to Haji Zadeh if the US had chosen to respond to Iran's attack on Ain Al Assad Iran was prepared to fire ~400BM within the 1st 24hrs and to me that number falls well short of what would be needed.
400BM is basically what Iran would require to cripple a country like the UAE not the USA.
And Iran's yearly production of solid fuel TBM alone needs to be well over that number.... And I hope that Haji Zadeh's comments were nothing more than miss information.

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## Stryker1982

VEVAK said:


> ran was prepared to fire ~400BM within the 1st 24hrs and to me that number falls well short of what would be needed.



That doesn't necessarily indicate that Iran's capacity in a 24hr period is 400 missiles. It could just mean they had planned to use 400 within that time frame to reciprocate an attack. We don't know what Iran's rate of fire could be per 24hrs assuming no interferences.

But with CENTOMs estimation of 2000-3000 assuming this is true, Iran would quickly find itself running out of inventory. Therefore as you say, secondary systems need to be delivered like LACMs and UCAVs

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## yavar

Stryker1982 said:


> But with CENTOMs estimation of 2000-3000 assuming this is true, Iran would quickly find itself running out of inventory. Therefore as you say, secondary systems need to be delivered like LACMs and UCAVs



Iran underground Ballistic Missile Production Factory,








while it been fired the production gone on 24 hours so ...........

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## WudangMaster

yavar said:


> Iran underground Ballistic Missile Production Factory,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> while it been fired the production gone on 24 hours so ...........


Did Dezful become the Haj Ghassem? They both seem to have the same war head shape or are they different variants and that all new missiles are going to be shaped that way for hypersonic?

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## skyshadow

*Iran made, Dezful medium range ballistic missile ( in color white ) and Zolfaghar road mobile Anti -Ship medium range ballistic missile ( in color dark yellow )*

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## yavar

WudangMaster said:


> Did Dezful become the Haj Ghassem? They both seem to have the same war head shape or are they different variants and that all new missiles are going to be shaped that way for hypersonic?




No Haj Qassem is totally different and has come from another program ( ASAT, space weapon, first stage lift) , after murder of Hajj Qassem they just Rushed it to annouce it on his name, that is why it has different characteristic.

The Dezful was follow with Fateh Anti-ship Ballistic missile program, and new technology in soild fuel which very has long time life storge, i mean very very long time of life expectancy.

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## Ich

WudangMaster said:


> Did Dezful become the Haj Ghassem? They both seem to have the same war head shape or are they different variants and that all new missiles are going to be shaped that way for hypersonic?



As far as i learned the shape of the warhead depends on the velocity at terminal phase. These two in the picture are between Mach 5 and Mach 10 in terminal phase. Wheras this shape of warhead at Sejjil is for velocities >Mach 10

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## makranman

yavar said:


> No Haj Qassem is totally different and has come from another program ( ASAT, space weapon, first stage lift) , after murder of Hajj Qassem they just Rushed it to annouce it on his name, that is why it has different characteristic.
> 
> The Dezful was follow with Fateh Anti-ship Ballistic missile program, and new technology in soild fuel which very has long time life storge, i mean very very long time of life expectancy.


how long is very long when talking about solid fuels? is it like 10ish years? or even more? (say 20+?)

P.S. so i did some googling, and it seems these things can actually last for 20+ years... (https://www.army.mil/article/156942/Army_researchers_extend_missile_system_shelf_life/)
which means Yavar's "very very long" could mean even more. imagine one of these missiles made today might be used even after some of us are no longer around.... 

P.S.S? Just as a Joke... imagine a post apocalyptic scenario for a movie where the characters use ancient BMs against Zombies...

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## VEVAK

Stryker1982 said:


> That doesn't necessarily indicate that Iran's capacity in a 24hr period is 400 missiles. It could just mean they had planned to use 400 within that time frame to reciprocate an attack. We don't know what Iran's rate of fire could be per 24hrs assuming no interferences.
> 
> But with CENTOMs estimation of 2000-3000 assuming this is true, Iran would quickly find itself running out of inventory. Therefore as you say, secondary systems need to be delivered like LACMs and UCAVs



No it does not indicate that the capacity is 400 BM. However, the figure does indicate that the retaliatory strategy and the tactic they planed on using revolved around that number of missiles being fired, which in my opinion is a strategic mistake and falls well short of what Iran would need to cripple US air superiority over Iranian Airspace.

If conflict between Iran and the U.S. reach a stage where we would need to fire 400BM, weather we like it or not or weather American leadership likes it or not both countries would be in an all out war. 
And against a much stronger opponent like the U.S., Iran's main retaliatory missile strike needs to be like a sucker punch that ensures that no American aircraft would be able to takeoff or land from within 1000km of Iranian boarders. And on top of attacking the U.S. navy with a swarm of speed boats, Iran would also need to carry out ground assaults against a number of US bases in the region to force them in a defensive posture so the aircraft capable of reaching the region would me more focused on defining their bases over attacking ours. 

As for US CENTCOMs estimations I really don't know if they are putting Missiles like the Fatteh-110 in the category of SRBM or in the category of guided rocket artillery....
Iran has been producing the Fateh-110 for nearly 2 decades now so if you where to calculate that just in the past decade Iran's production was an average of 100 per year that's 1000 Fateh-110 alone
As for the rest a conservative estimate would be: 
Larger 2 stage/multi engine BM at a rate of ~25per year
Single stage BM at a rate of at least 50 per year
Solid fuel TBM at a rate of 50-100 per year

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## WudangMaster

makranman said:


> how long is very long when talking about solid fuels? is it like 10ish years? or even more? (say 20+?)
> 
> P.S. so i did some googling, and it seems these things can actually last for 20+ years... (https://www.army.mil/article/156942/Army_researchers_extend_missile_system_shelf_life/)
> which means Yavar's "very very long" could mean even more. imagine one of these missiles made today might be used even after some of us are no longer around....
> 
> P.S.S? Just as a Joke... imagine a post apocalyptic scenario for a movie where the characters use ancient BMs against Zombies...


I think the missiles will have to refurbished to some degree every few years to a decade or so because of the electrical components and whatever batteries they might be using to make sure everything works copacetically or even switch or upgrade digital/electronic parts, etc The overall missile with fuel would be fine but still checked out and most changes would be near the tip where it comes to ordinance and guidance systems.

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## aryobarzan

WudangMaster said:


> I think the missiles will have to refurbished to some degree every few years to a decade or so because of the electrical components and whatever batteries they might be using to make sure everything works copacetically or even switch or upgrade digital/electronic parts, etc The overall missile with fuel would be fine but still checked out and most changes would be near the tip where it comes to ordinance and guidance systems.





WudangMaster said:


> I think the missiles will have to refurbished to some degree every few years to a decade or so because of the electrical components and whatever batteries they might be using to make sure everything works copacetically or even switch or upgrade digital/electronic parts, etc The overall missile with fuel would be fine but still checked out and most changes would be near the tip where it comes to ordinance and guidance systems.


That is a good question...I know some missiles (shoulder fire ones)..need somewhat fresh battery and coolant to do IR detection..but for other type missiles do they need batteries...I know Torpedo (MK48) battery comes alive when it is dropped in to the sea water to power the gyros and electronics...Do missiles use dynamo activated by a prop to come alive during the flight...a question I have always had..do not know the answer!!!!!.

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## yavar

aryobarzan said:


> missiles do they need batteries..



Iran manufacturing Zinc-silver batteries and Thermal Military Grade batteries

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## Mr Iran Eye

Vevak who thinks who would fight better than the whole Iranian army with his generals, corporal and more.

Go to rest, your egocentricity is excessive and your need for rest because you do not have clear ideas and you are slipping solid.


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## Shawnee

WudangMaster said:


> Did Dezful become the Haj Ghassem? They both seem to have the same war head shape or are they different variants and that all new missiles are going to be shaped that way for hypersonic?



دو رشته بدردبخور
Designing hypersonic list of tweets:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228430460935692295
Nose shapes/ conical nose properties:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252578045334093825

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## Shawnee

New Yemeni missiles have no identical twin in Iranian system. Huge developments:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009304816816133

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009313700380673

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009342267756545

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009371699187713
Fabian Hinz thinks the name Qasim is after Qasim Soleimani, since he does not know Arabic and the subtle difference in “s”.

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## sha ah

New video showing Yemeni missile technology / products, including cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, manpads, SAMs,Katusha rockets, suicide drones, UCAVs, multi-rotar drones and even AR style rifles etc.

NOTE: For some reason most of the video is silent. Some of it has sound during certain excerpts. It's the editing.

One drone looks similar to the Shahed 129, the original model, not the 2nd model. Their manpads look like Misagh. Not sure if they're more similar to Misagh 1 or 2.

Obviously Iran isn't giving the Houthis their top of the line products. More like hand me downs. However even these 2nd rate Iranian products have had a huge impact on the outcome of the Yemeni conflict so far.

You know in some cases, the Saudi air defenses are not even able to stop half a dozen or so of these missiles / drones. It makes you wonder. What would happen if Iran launched thousands of missiles at the Saudis. Surely they would be decimated in no time.

This is why Trump said that "without US they would be speaking Farsi in a few weeks" something to that extent right ?

These missiles more than certainly contain Iranian components. Honestly if they could realistically mass produce these products on an assembly line, even on a limited scale, it would be a tremendous asset to the Houthis.

After a few minor recent setbacks in Yemen, I'm guessing the Houthis will use more of their missiles inside of Yemen itself ?








Shawnee said:


> New Yemeni missiles have no identical twin in Iranian system. Huge developments:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009304816816133
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009313700380673
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009342267756545
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370009371699187713
> Fabian Hinz thinks the name Qasim is after Qasim Soleimani, since he does not know Arabic and the subtle difference in “s”.

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## Messerschmitt



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## Blue In Green

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 723982



@PeeD @Messerschmitt 

Can we consider Houthi weaponry as an extension of Iranian weapons?


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## Dariush the Great

Blue In Green said:


> @PeeD @Messerschmitt
> 
> Can we consider Houthi weaponry as an extension of Iranian weapons?


Consider it like this.. Iran delivers the IKEA alike packaging and Houthis assemble it on their own. Of course this does not represent how it actually is but a bit similar process.

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## Raghfarm007

Video of the Yemeni weapons being used in practice:

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## Iskander

Interesting new footage

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371399440897048576

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## yavar



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## Blue In Green

yavar said:


>



Sweet Jesus.......just look at how many there are! 

There has to be easily hundreds (thousands?) of them just in that facility alone!!

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## Draco.IMF

Interesting stuff

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## yavar



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## scimitar19

yavar said:


>


Eye candy hallways that brings sweet smirk on my face. That is the decoration that i would like to have in my garage, a full stack just in case.

Sweet loving baby Jesus! Look at these cute babies 😍.

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## yavar

we have leak again with real capabilities, don't know weather was intentional or accidental.
never mind the usual cruises

high powered kinetic energy impact weapon

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> we have leak again with real capabilities, don't know weather was intentional or accidental.
> never mind the usual cruises
> 
> high powered kinetic energy impact weapon



nothing is " accidental"...sealed Anti Ship Ballistic missile?

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> sealed Anti Ship Ballistic missile?


no not Ballistic missile, torpedo type cruise missile

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## aryobarzan

yavar said:


> no not Ballistic missile, torpedo type cruise missile


 A bit worried if this location is Identified they will use MOB or tactical nukes to destroy all...with so much explosive power in one location ...Is that wise..do not know.

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## aryobarzan

Simple math...700 speed boats each carrying two anti ship missile, add to that FACs, Frigates..Subs..you are talking about may be 2000 missile deployed at any one time...If this place is attacked and all refills gone...All those ships and boat will become sweet target practice for the enemy...

I am alarmist by nature...but sometimes the most obvious things escapes the most brilliant minds (Ukranian airliner an example)..did some one over estimate the survivability of such place.

PS: to an American war planner ..this location and others are Extremely High Value targets (use all assets to find them and use all assets to destroy them and the war will be short!!!!)...remember Yemen start of war..first attacks were on the Ammo depos...


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## AmirPatriot

Blue In Green said:


> Sweet Jesus.......just look at how many there are!
> 
> There has to be easily hundreds (thousands?) of them just in that facility alone!!


I counted about 170, but there are more that I could see but couldn't reliably count. 200+ in that one video.

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## Mr Iran Eye

aryobarzan said:


> Simple math...700 speed boats each carrying two anti ship missile, add to that FACs, Frigates..Subs..you are talking about may be 2000 missile deployed at any one time...If this place is attacked and all refills gone...All those ships and boat will become sweet target practice for the enemy...
> 
> I am alarmist by nature...but sometimes the most obvious things escapes the most brilliant minds (Ukranian airliner an example)..did some one over estimate the survivability of such place.
> 
> PS: to an American war planner ..this location and others are Extremely High Value targets (use all assets to find them and use all assets to destroy them and the war will be short!!!!)...remember Yemen start of war..first attacks were on the Ammo depos...



Thank you for wanting to help the USA but they will also have to pierce Iran's powerful air defense which has other surprises in store for us. The USA will have its *** with Iran


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## aryobarzan

Mr Iran Eye said:


> Thank you for wanting to help the USA but they will also have to pierce Iran's powerful air defense which has other surprises in store for us. The USA will have its *** with Iran


There is nothing that I said which is not public....so I do not get your point..

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## Mr Iran Eye

aryobarzan said:


> There is nothing that I said which is not public....so I do not get your point..



The total power of Air Defense systems is not showing to the public, Iran has other surprises in store for us on this subject. So don't dream of American tactics that will go down the drain


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## aryobarzan

Mr Iran Eye said:


> The total power of Air Defense systems is not showing to the public, Iran has other surprises in store for us on this subject. So don't dream of American tactics that will go down the drain


OK.....I hope what you said is based on actual knowledge and not just a wishful thinking....

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## skyshadow



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## sha ah

The Armenians and Syrians will surely want to get their hands on these destructive weapons.



Raghfarm007 said:


> Video of the Yemeni weapons being used in practice:

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## Oldman1

sha ah said:


> The Armenians and Syrians will surely want to get their hands on these destructive weapons.


Will Iran give it to them to retake their lands?


Draco.IMF said:


> nothing is " accidental"...sealed Anti Ship Ballistic missile?


Looks more like cruise missiles.

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## DoubleYouSee

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 724910


hey guys
my weird question would be out of my mixed curiosity and misunderstanding.
could these ballistic or quasi ballistic or rocket or whatever you know;be launched from gulf depth?!
due to IRGC's last surprise that missiles have been launched(i mean missile farms)from the depth of the ground.these canister launched rockets could be planted under the sea water and be launched on demand.
or maybe not;the mechanism of pushing rockets under the sea needs high pressure air(or another gases)to bring missile out of their canister!

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## yavar

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 724910

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## VEVAK

yavar said:


>



Amazing! As I always say the IRGC never disappoints!

This is an indication that it's about time they start working overtime in coming up with different launch platforms & VLS systems...

There is no way to hide the logistics of loading that many missiles amidst a war with the U.S. without the base becoming a priority target... IRGC should start diverting the resources currently going towards Rocket Boats to vessels that can be converted to carry such missiles! 

I very much doubt that at the start of any conflict with Iran an enemy would be stupid enough to send a fleet of large vessels to within 300km of Iranian shores so the IRGC needs to have the vessels needed to deploy them to beyond that range & do it rather quickly

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## skyshadow

DoubleYouSee said:


> hey guys
> my weird question would be out of my mixed curiosity and misunderstanding.
> could these ballistic or quasi ballistic or rocket or whatever you know;be launched from gulf depth?!
> due to IRGC's last surprise that missiles have been launched(i mean missile farms)from the depth of the ground.these canister launched rockets could be planted under the sea water and be launched on demand.
> or maybe not;the mechanism of pushing rockets under the sea needs high pressure air(or another gases)to bring missile out of their canister!


the short answer would be yes, but you need to put some work to it nothing crazy just some adjustments to adapt to the new space which is the sea like launch tubes and underwater missile farms

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## IAm

aryobarzan said:


> Simple math...700 speed boats each carrying two anti ship missile, add to that FACs, Frigates..Subs..you are talking about may be 2000 missile deployed at any one time...If this place is attacked and all refills gone...All those ships and boat will become sweet target practice for the enemy...
> 
> I am alarmist by nature...but sometimes the most obvious things escapes the most brilliant minds (Ukranian airliner an example)..did some one over estimate the survivability of such place.
> 
> PS: to an American war planner ..this location and others are Extremely High Value targets (use all assets to find them and use all assets to destroy them and the war will be short!!!!)...remember Yemen start of war..first attacks were on the Ammo depos...



Don't worry. The US MOP bunker buster can only penetrate 60m deep. Some of these missile cities are are several 100s of meter deep. The MOP cannot get near this underground storage even if drop precisely upon them. I don't know much but I don't think nuclear weapon can go 100s of meter deep underground. I am sure if the US knows the precise location they still have no means of destroying them. The US military is omnipotent as some people want the world to believe.

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## yavar

DoubleYouSee said:


> hey guys
> my weird question would be out of my mixed curiosity and misunderstanding.
> could these ballistic or quasi ballistic or rocket or whatever you know;be launched from gulf depth?!

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## VEVAK

IAm said:


> Don't worry. The US MOP bunker buster can only penetrate 60m deep. Some of these missile cities are are several 100s of meter deep. The MOP cannot get near this underground storage even if drop precisely upon them. I don't know much but I don't think nuclear weapon can go 100s of meter deep underground. I am sure if the US knows the precise location they still have no means of destroying them. The US military is omnipotent as some people want the world to believe.



Even if these facilities where deep underground, the U.S. does NOT need to demolish the entire base. Especially for near shore bases the main thing they would likely focus on is the entrances. 
And they vary much have the capability to put them out of operation for weeks on end and with repeated strikes months on end. And in a conflict against the U.S. Iran simply can't afford to lose access to large portions of it's missile stockpile for months!

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## Shawnee

VEVAK said:


> Even if these facilities where deep underground, the U.S. does NOT need to demolish the entire base. Especially for near shore bases the main thing they would likely focus on is the entrances.
> And they vary much have the capability to put them out of operation for weeks on end and with repeated strikes months on end. And in a conflict against the U.S. Iran simply can't afford to lose access to large portions of it's missile stockpile for months!



It is more complicated. The weak points are ventilation outlet/system, entrances and firing pits.

The entrance and firing pits are not just a hole and are usually several entrances inside deep crevices of the granite rock.
You can see the crevices in sat images occasionally.

Imagine the 3D shape of a crevice and its firing pits. Many times these pits and holes cannot be seen in satellites imagery due to its hidden nature.

This is a simple crevice/valley. Not a straight line for a missile. It is easier to launch a missile from this valley to target a point inside it. 






I would raise the attack level even more to what I consider the most lethal: a mix of 10 MT multistage bunker buster thermonuclear warhead in addition to VX gas warheads to penetrate deep inside the crevices.

If you run the modeling softwares, the thermonuclear warhead cannot easily penetrate into 600 m of granite rock. Debris of the blast can be guided away from the holes.

The entrance and pits can be sealed to nerve gas and the staff will have protection to nerve gas and several months of required stocks.

Oxygen makers will recover lost ventilators. EM pulse guns will protect against robotic penetration into the system.

This is a second strike capability a country would like to have. I am not sure if Iran is quite there yet but not far away.

*Add mobile launchers and ground and underwater missile silos too. It is not just mountain silos.*

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## Surenas

*Israel Concerned as Iran Provides Its Mideast Proxies With Better Weapons *

Iran has recently made significant advances in the development of its weapons industry, including precision-guided rockets and missiles, cruise missiles and drones. Israeli intelligence has observed a leap in Iranian capabilities, which are now being extensively distributed to other parts of the radical axis led by Tehran in the Middle East, including Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Assad regime in Syria, the Shi’ite militias in Iraq and the Houthi rebels in Yemen.

Intelligence officials say that for the first time, the Iranian arms industry has become an industry encompassing the entire radical axis. One unit from the Revolutionary Guards, Unit 340 of the Quds Force, is responsible for the research and development that serves all the terrorist and guerilla organizations operating with Tehran’s patronage and financing. The knowhow gained by the Iranians is quickly and effectively relayed to their proxies throughout the region.

Tehran’s aim is to enable these organizations to achieve independent production capability in their respective countries, without being dependent upon Iranian smuggling operations, so they will be less vulnerable to Israeli strikes against the various smuggling channels. Last week, Iran accused Israel of responsibility for a blast on an Iranian ship in the Mediterranean. This was apparently a smuggling operation that was thwarted on the way to Lebanon.

Israel is especially concerned by Hezbollah’s acceleration of its “precision project,” in which it plans to do a massive upgrade of its arsenal of rockets and missiles so they can strike within just a few meters of their targets. In recent years, in the wake of the Israeli strikes on its smuggling operations, Hezbollah has made several attempts to build facilities in Lebanon to manufacture weaponry and convert arms to precision-guided weapons. Officially, Israel talks about Hezbollah having dozens of precision rockets, but some assessments say that number has surged in the past couple of years and is now apparently in the hundreds.

Hezbollah is working on developing several types of improvements for its missiles – greater precision, greater lethal impact and ability to circumvent the active Israeli defense systems. In his speeches, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah often talks about the level of precision of his organization’s weaponry and boasts that in the event of a war, Israel will be surprised by Hezbollah’s capabilities.

Another nearby arena where similar progress has been made is the Gaza Strip. Hamas, with Iranian aid, has significantly boosted its production capacity for rockets and drones and conducts very frequent test firings that are directed westward into the Mediterranean. In the last few years, Hamas members have traveled to Iran and elsewhere for training in weapons development.









Israel concerned as Iran provides its Mideast proxies with better weapons


***




www.haaretz.com

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## IAm

VEVAK said:


> Even if these facilities where deep underground, the U.S. does NOT need to demolish the entire base. Especially for near shore bases the main thing they would likely focus on is the entrances.
> And they vary much have the capability to put them out of operation for weeks on end and with repeated strikes months on end. And in a conflict against the U.S. Iran simply can't afford to lose access to large portions of it's missile stockpile for months!


1. I don't think the IRGC will create this missile cities without a lot of emergency exit. 
2. Cruise missiles cannot do this type of attack, they have to fly close to it And they can only fly close to them after degrading Iranian air defenses. 
3. With this type of arsenal they will not have the comfort of Iraq and Afghanistan to degrade the Iranian air defenses. 
So, you see the US military is omnipotent I repeat.

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## Shawnee

Shawnee said:


> It is more complicated. The weak points are ventilation outlet/system, entrances and firing pits.
> 
> The entrance and firing pits are not just a hole and are usually several entrances inside deep crevices of the granite rock.
> You can see the crevices in sat images occasionally.
> 
> Imagine the 3D shape of a crevice and its firing pits. Many times these pits and holes cannot be seen in satellites imagery due to its hidden nature.
> 
> This is a simple crevice/valley. Not a straight line for a missile. It is easier to launch a missile from this valley to target a point inside it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would raise the attack level even more to what I consider the most lethal: a mix of 10 MT multistage bunker buster thermonuclear warhead in addition to VX gas warheads to penetrate deep inside the crevices.
> 
> If you run the modeling softwares, the thermonuclear warhead cannot easily penetrate into 600 m of granite rock. Debris of the blast can be guided away from the holes.
> 
> The entrance and pits can be sealed to nerve gas and the staff will have protection to nerve gas and several months of required stocks.
> 
> Oxygen makers will recover lost ventilators. EM pulse guns will protect against robotic penetration into the system.
> 
> This is a second strike capability a country would like to have. I am not sure if Iran is quite there yet but not far away.
> 
> *Add mobile launchers and ground and underwater missile silos too. It is not just mountain silos.*



One of the few missiles that was test fired from a valley in 2015. It was called firing from a valley and not from a missile city.






You can’t see the inside of the tight valleys with satellites and you have to rely on limited radar images.

How it probably looks like inside:

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## Sineva

Heres one that gave me a good laugh  
https://www.*foxnews*.com/world/iran-built-new-ballistic-missile-launch-positions-satellite-images

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Sineva said:


> Heres one that gave me a good laugh
> https://www.*foxnews*.com/world/iran-built-new-ballistic-missile-launch-positions-satellite-images


The comment section is American retardation gold!

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## Arian

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> The comment section is American retardation gold!


Hey. That's not fair. I can't see the comment section. Where is it?


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## aryobarzan

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> The comment section is American retardation gold!


Funny you said that..I read about half of the comments ..and by the time i finished my head was smoking...I read about 100 comments..95% of these morons said it "*is all Obama's (the moslem Obama!) fault because he gave Iranians $100 billion dollar of US tax payers money and Iranians are using it to build these missile places to attack us..and Biden is going to give them more money!!!!.*

I was thinking all morning the level of ignorance in the US general population is so deep there is no way out of it no fix possible....Trump was just one of them and he made sure more will join the ranks....This nation is in trouble but it keeps humming along

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## Shawnee

Yesterday, an Israeli center brought up the natural mountain structures as a barrier to attacking Iran missile centers. They think nuclear devices can work in this center.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372712177526788098

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## sha ah

I get a headache everytime I hear this nonsense. Obama only gave Iran it's own frozen funds and those fund are long gone. Iran has the 2nd largest reserves of natural gas and the 4th largest reserves of oil in the world. Most Americans though have no clue since their only perception of Iran is the Zionist dominated western mainstream media. They have no clue that Iran can build cars either. What do you expect, most people are simply ignorant.



aryobarzan said:


> Funny you said that..I read about half of the comments ..and by the time i finished my head was smoking...I read about 100 comments..95% of these morons said it "*is all Obama's (the moslem Obama!) fault because he gave Iranians $100 billion dollar of US tax payers money and Iranians are using it to build these missile places to attack us..and Biden is going to give them more money!!!!.*
> 
> I was thinking all morning the level of ignorance in the US general population is so deep there is no way out of it no fix possible....Trump was just one of them and he made sure more will join the ranks....This nation is in trouble but it keeps humming along

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## WudangMaster

aryobarzan said:


> Funny you said that..I read about half of the comments ..and by the time i finished my head was smoking...I read about 100 comments..95% of these morons said it "*is all Obama's (the moslem Obama!) fault because he gave Iranians $100 billion dollar of US tax payers money and Iranians are using it to build these missile places to attack us..and Biden is going to give them more money!!!!.*
> 
> I was thinking all morning the level of ignorance in the US general population is so deep there is no way out of it no fix possible....Trump was just one of them and he made sure more will join the ranks....This nation is in trouble but it keeps humming along


I grew up amongst the hill billy barbarians and had to explain in elementary, middle, and high school why I didn't have a red dot on my forehead and if Moslems are allowed to eat beef! The general population thinks the Eastern Mediterranean to the Himalayas and from the upper Indian Ocean to the Northern Caspain are one people similar to characters in Indiana Jones movies. I also had to explain that I don't eat insects and snakes because of that second damn movie in the 80s...

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## aryobarzan

WudangMaster said:


> I grew up amongst the hill billy barbarians and had to explain in elementary, middle, and high school why I didn't have a red dot on my forehead and if Moslems are allowed to eat beef! The general population thinks the Eastern Mediterranean to the Himalayas and from the upper Indian Ocean to the Northern Caspain are one people similar to characters in Indiana Jones movies. I also had to explain that I don't eat insects and snakes because of that second damn movie in the 80s...


Lol...do not feel bad...when I worked in Texas.. many thought Canada was a US state....I am not kidding...a woman bank manager in upstate NY only 50 miles from Canadian border told me she has never been in Canada because she is afraid to be in a foreign country and she does not speak Canadian!!!!and In those days you could just drive through from US to Canada by showing your drivers permit...

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## EvilWesteners

aryobarzan said:


> Lol...do not feel bad...when I worked in Texas.. many thought Canada was a US state....I am not kidding...a woman bank manager in upstate NY only 50 miles from Canadian border told me she has never been in Canada because she is afraid to be in a foreign country and she does not speak Canadian!!!!and In those days you could just drive through from US to Canada by showing your drivers permit...




NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, neverrrrrrrrr ....... underestimate the stupidity of American people. 

I have worked with them in U.K., U.S., France, and Germany. Half the kids come out of high school and can't read or write (according to 6 years of polling by CNN from 2005-2011), and in my opinion having worked with so many of them (even in Aviation Industry), I really find most of them quite unaware of anything about any other country.

In coversations in Europe, I have a good chance of learning something that I did not know or had not read about previously. In U.S. I am constantly treated as if I am a genius who knows everything about everything. It really displays the level of ignorance on their part. While everybody outside of U.S. want to know more and learn more and be smart, in U.S.most are happy with having money or being rich and that is "better" than being smart.

I have met some very sharp and smart Americans. They are the ones that agree that most Americans are ignorant and choose to remain so.

I can tell so many occurrences in my experience where I witnessed American ignorance, .... but out of all, I always remember how one American was arguing with me regarding ... wait for it ... "_Sixteen _Chapel being built by U.S. for the Vatican".

That just stole the biscuit.

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## scimitar19

EvilWesteners said:


> "_Sixteen _Chapel being built by U.S. for the Vatican".


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## Raghfarm007

I grew up in England, and also constantly had to tell people why Saddam Hossein is not the president of Iran..... the fuktards in England think they are much smarter than the Ameritards..... but in reality there is very little difference between them.... I am in Germany now for a year... these guys arent too much better.... they constantly ask me if Iranians speak Arabic!!!!

I took a British friend of mine to Iran a few years ago.... she said I a surprised that you guys dont live in mud houses!!! This is the level of retardation that they keep their people in...

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## WudangMaster

Raghfarm007 said:


> I grew up in England, and also constantly had to tell people why Saddam Hossein is not the president of Iran..... the fuktards in England think they are much smarter than the Ameritards..... but in reality there is very little difference between them.... I am in Germany now for a year... these guys arent too much better.... they constantly ask me if Iranians speak Arabic!!!!


I had a lot of that in the 90s and the idiocy extended to those from south of the border and found in large numbers in this state.too...

On a similar note, my grandfather was in the hospital a few years back and his Indian doctor was asking me if Arabic was close enough to Farsi for him to have an Arabic translator. I was absolutely horrified that he didn't know better...

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## Raghfarm007



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## Surenas

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374106891765354496

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## Messerschmitt

Surenas said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374106891765354496




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374335394297352194

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374413561754124300

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## skyshadow

*it is basically a "swiss knife" for covert warfare, fearsome Iranian 358 missile that attacks Turkish backed forces in Syria ( no hard feelings ) and American and Chinese drones all over middle east it seems 2 of which (MQ-9) were shoot down today one in north west Iraq and one in Yemen this missile can be used as surface to surface missile or air to surface or for surface to air missions*

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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> it is basically a "swiss knife" for covert warfare, fearsome Iranian 358 missile


Airborne homing mine for Air and Ground targets which can switch in Stinger/Igla mode or preprogrammed mini cruise missile for short ranges. EDIT: This thing can engage sea surface targets but it doesn't do one thing and that is it can't act as a torpedo 

Holy shit its All in One weapon for short maybe to medium distances!
Its a masterpiece all I can say!

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## skyshadow

scimitar19 said:


> Airborne homing mine for Air and Ground targets which can switch in Stinger/Igla mode or preprogrammed mini cruise missile for short ranges.
> 
> Holy shit its All in One weapon for short maybe to medium distances!


the surface to surface version seems bigger then air defense version so it could have close to 100 kms on it maybe more

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## Khibiny

skyshadow said:


> *it is basically a "swiss knife" for covert warfare, fearsome Iranian 358 missile that attacks Turkish backed forces in Syria ( no hard feelings ) and American and Chinese drones all over middle east it seems 2 of which (MQ-9) were shoot down today one in north west Iraq and one in Yemen this missile can be used as surface to surface missile or air to surface or for surface to air missions*



God bless Iran and its scientists. Keep up the good work.

West Asia needs to be a no fly zone for the U.S and its lapdogs.

A U.S drone was shot down today in Iraq as well, and an Israeli Hermes drone was shot down in Lebanon last month by Hezbollah (the Isrealis were quiet about it).

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## scimitar19

Its a perfect ambush weapon and true Air denial weapon against drones and helicopters. This missile can be fired in close proximity to the target without exposing itself where crew has plentiful time to scoot.

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## yavar



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## Sineva

New atgm unofficially unveiled

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382796845466984456

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383476033739837446

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## Sineva

Sineva said:


> New atgm unofficially unveiled


A close up shot of the back end of the new helo launched shafaq missile.




Range:20km,with laser and ir guidance options.

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## PeeD

Note the title:






Have been saying this for years, good to see Russia agreeing on it.

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## Messerschmitt

^ Raad-16 MLRS




^ Fath-360 missile system

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384464114043457537

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384464114043457537



This will be a great read for when I get back home from work.

🇮🇷☺

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> This will be a great read for when I get back home from work.
> 
> 🇮🇷☺


sorry bro but it's will not be as good


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## Iskander



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## Sineva

Iskander said:


>



"Tens of meters"  
He actually starts off very well by honestly admitting that irans missiles are a big concern,not only because of the size of the arsenal,but also because of the qualitative improvements to that arsenal,especially its accuracy.
Sadly tho,he then goes on to promptly wreck most of that new found honesty by claiming that the accuracy of the missiles in the ayn al-asad strike was in the order of [only] "tens of meters".

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## Philip the Arab

Sineva said:


> "Tens of meters"
> He actually starts off very well by honestly admitting that irans missiles are a big concern,not only because of the size of the arsenal,but also because of the qualitative improvements to that arsenal,especially its accuracy.
> Sadly tho,he then goes on to promptly wreck most of that new found honesty by claiming that the accuracy of the missiles in the ayn al-asad strike was in the order of [only] "tens of meters".


You can realistically expect about 10 meter CEP with GPS guidance especially considering Iran doesn't have access to military level accuracy that comes with an indigenous SatNav system. Terminally to get really precise you need another form on guidance such as IIR, or SALH.


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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> You can realistically expect about 10 meter CEP with GPS guidance especially considering Iran doesn't have access to military level accuracy that comes with an indigenous SatNav system.



Which is fine of course, considering the purpose of such missiles would be high-value targets which would assume they are fairly large.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1385218091261566976

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## yavar

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1385218091261566976


false analysistion,
which will be proven wrong not long

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## yavar



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## sanel1412

Sineva said:


> "Tens of meters"
> He actually starts off very well by honestly admitting that irans missiles are a big concern,not only because of the size of the arsenal,but also because of the qualitative improvements to that arsenal,especially its accuracy.
> Sadly tho,he then goes on to promptly wreck most of that new found honesty by claiming that the accuracy of the missiles in the ayn al-asad strike was in the order of [only] "tens of meters".


He said actualy "Within ten meters of target they choose" ,but He responded multiple times over same question so He may said both,I watch report where He said this


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## NaCon



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## skyshadow

NaCon said:


> View attachment 737410


cloud the cruise missile be real too? im sure IRGC have given then real RQ-170 to make the film with


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## WudangMaster

skyshadow said:


> cloud the cruise missile be real too? im sure IRGC have given then real RQ-170 to make the film with


I hope the real items are not being used as movie props. Making a maquette for the movie would be good enough especially in the scene where they first captured it. Even parades don't use real weapons, never mind a real cruise missile being touched by production staff of the studio whereas none of them would have the clearance to touch such things.

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## skyshadow

NaCon said:


> View attachment 737410


god damn i thought i have seen these warehouses before now i remember where i've seen it.












WudangMaster said:


> I hope the real items are not being used as movie props. Making a maquette for the movie would be good enough especially in the scene where they first captured it. Even parades don't use real weapons, never mind a real cruise missile being touched by production staff of the studio whereas none of them would have the clearance to touch such things.


good point but an unseen Tomahawk like cruise missile in a real IRGC warehouse is suspicious to say the least

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## skyshadow



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## WudangMaster

skyshadow said:


> god damn i thought i have seen these warehouses before now i remember where i've seen it.
> 
> View attachment 737444
> 
> 
> View attachment 737445
> 
> 
> good point but an unseen Tomahawk like cruise missile in a real IRGC warehouse is suspicious to say the least


I was thinking that it is also possible they were given permission to do some of their filming in the aerospace exhibition center or other exhibition centers, hence the appearance of all the various aircraft, & missiles, etc. 
From a story perspective, it is doubtful that the rq170 would be at that location and with a cruise missile in the corner of that big salon. 
It probably would have been in a secret facility with a large anechoic chamber and probably travelled about until it was finally put on display. 
It just seems unlikely that the craft was being disassembled and x rayed, etc in the same large room where work was being carried out on a cruise missile...

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 737449
> 
> 
> View attachment 737446
> 
> 
> View attachment 737447
> 
> 
> View attachment 737448


Knowing Iran. They’ve leaked this out on purpose . Theirs no reason why a massive cruise missile would be in a drone warehouse unless they wanted to show it lol

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## Stryker1982

yavar said:


> false analysistion,
> which will be proven wrong not long



A few weird things in here. They claim in the infographic that Shahab-3 is 1000km range....what?

Also Emad and Ghadr being 1600km....how? Emad is basically a precision upgrade over the Shahab-3. Same body, same fuel tank, the weight isn't reduced as the body of the missile uses the same materials. Very odd stuff indeed.

The really unknown thing here for me is all the "suspected" missile bases. Alot more than I estimated, and situated in the center and west. It's alittle hard to believe their is not one in Khorasan province near Afghanistan and one in Baluchistan

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## yavar

skyshadow said:


> View attachment 737449
> 
> 
> View attachment 737446
> 
> 
> View attachment 737447
> 
> 
> View attachment 737448

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## mohsen

NaCon said:


> View attachment 737410


That's not the real RQ170, it's just a fake model built for this TV drama, probably along other things.

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## sanel1412

Stryker1982 said:


> Knowing Iran. They’ve leaked this out on purpose . Theirs no reason why a massive cruise missile would be in a drone warehouse unless they wanted to show it lol


Actualy that Tomahawk mock up is same as one Iran displayed few times,even color....i remeber before we knew for any Iranian LACM,photos with same looking tomahawk mock up could be seen ...I would try to find it..

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## WudangMaster

mohsen said:


> That's not the real RQ170, it's just a fake model built for this TV drama, probably along other things.


The most we can assume is that the film crew were allowed to use the maquettes in IRGC exhibitions as film props to help keep production costs down. The film crew would not have anywhere near the security clearance to be in the same room as the real stuff. Given experience with your average filt, tv, theater actor, I would bet the majority of the actors in the show are not nearly as good or patriotic as their characters...

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## skyshadow

*Iran advanced missile systems currently in development*














Iran's missiles in development could be part of new nuclear deal with US


Tehran's missile proliferation effort has profoundly destabilising consequences




www.thenationalnews.com

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> *Iran advanced missile systems currently in development*
> 
> View attachment 737759
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's missiles in development could be part of new nuclear deal with US
> 
> 
> Tehran's missile proliferation effort has profoundly destabilising consequences
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenationalnews.com



"The report found that the _Zuljanah_ space rocket could travel up to 5,000km carrying a one-tonne warhead and would be a pathway for Iran to develop an ICBM. "

1 ton warhead to Western Europe?

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> "The report found that the _Zuljanah_ space rocket could travel up to 5,000km carrying a one-tonne warhead and would be a pathway for Iran to develop an ICBM. "
> 
> 1 ton warhead to Western Europe?
> View attachment 737769


yes it's yours

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## skyshadow

Qhaem-114

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## Sineva

skyshadow said:


> *Iran advanced missile systems currently in development*
> 
> View attachment 737759
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's missiles in development could be part of new nuclear deal with US
> 
> 
> Tehran's missile proliferation effort has profoundly destabilising consequences
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenationalnews.com


The chumpist fantasy of a "better deal" dies hard I see.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387173093769089025

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## Stryker1982

No Appeasement!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1389559735754571777

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1389564414223847424

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## Aramagedon

Now Iran must arm these cute missiles with nukes (for deterrence). if they haven't done already

Recency Mr. Saeed Mohammad one of presidential candidates suggested to enrich uranium to 93%.

Iranian missile at dimona:

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## Aspen

Somebody should make a gif out of this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353035709851062272

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## skyshadow

🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫

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## Bahram Esfandiari

skyshadow said:


> 🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫
> 
> View attachment 741924
> 
> 
> View attachment 741925



That was one hell of an S-200!

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## Ich

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> That was one hell of an S-200!



With the new "woke" hype going around the world today, Dimona identifys itself as an airplane and so S-200 was able to attack it...

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## AmirPatriot

Aspen said:


> Somebody should make a gif out of this
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353035709851062272



It is a gif but idk how to upload it to Twitter without it converting to a video. Won't upload to the forum either.


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## mohsen

really interesting missiles festival:
گنبد آهنین جوابگوی این حجم از آتش نیست+ فیلم - مشرق نیوز





Though it's just few seconds before Israelis run out of missile.

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## Iskander

mohsen said:


> really interesting missiles festival:
> گنبد آهنین جوابگوی این حجم از آتش نیست+ فیلم - مشرق نیوز
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though it's just few seconds before Israelis run out of missile.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392523442629529602

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## Hack-Hook

the wars have become a saturation wars who ever manage to saturate enemy defenses will have upper hand.
if Israel wil ran out of cheap Tamir interceptor , I wonder how wise it is to build a short air defense system based on system like pantsir and Tor which have interceptor missiles 10 time more expensive.


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## Stryker1982

Hack-Hook said:


> the wars have become a saturation wars who ever manage to saturate enemy defenses will have upper hand.
> if Israel wil ran out of cheap Tamir interceptor , I wonder how wise it is to build a short air defense system based on system like pantsir and Tor which have interceptor missiles 10 time more expensive.


Tamir is not cheap.

They are $40,000 a piece. We can probably build a Qiam for cheaper.





If only

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> Tamir is not cheap.
> 
> They are $40,000 a piece. We can probably build a Qiam for cheaper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If only


quiet cheap compared to Tor and Pantsir


----------



## sanel1412

Hack-Hook said:


> quiet cheap compared to Tor and Pantsir


Nope,you got it wrong...40k is price of one interceptor missile...considering it intercept 100$ rocket that Hamas and PIJ fired 1000 for 24 hour....


----------



## Sina-1

If anybody is wondering how hamas miraculously got both quantity and quality in rockets:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392620683864285186

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## Sina-1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392758292213075969

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## Hack-Hook

sanel1412 said:


> Nope,you got it wrong...40k is price of one interceptor missile...considering it intercept 100$ rocket that Hamas and PIJ fired 1000 for 24 hour....


well , you get it somehow wrong , those are precision rockets so they are more expensive than 100$
but its not what i say . I compared tamir interceptor price with something like pantsir and Tor and believe me its a lot cheaper than those two


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## Sina-1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393117744128839681

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## sanel1412

Hack-Hook said:


> well , you get it somehow wrong , those are precision rockets so they are more expensive than 100$
> but its not what i say . I compared tamir interceptor price with something like pantsir and Tor and believe me its a lot cheaper than those two


Well,not all missiles fired by Palestinians are those high precision,90% missiles in barages are unguided artilery rockets or in short MLRS,than they use few of these precise to strike targets. Pantsir,TOR..are not same class as Iron Dome,actualy Iron Dome is completly different system, designed for different targets. Iron Dome is much more expensive and interceptors are expensive like hell....Unlike Pantsir or Tor,Iron Dome is designed to intercept artilery shels and rockets,while Tor and Pantsir are something different,designed to engage aircrafts,cruise missiles and air lunched weapons...So,Iron Dome is not comparable in any terms..with Thor or Pantsir..Iron Dome is unique,designed to engage targets you will never see Pantsir or Tor to engage....like MLRS and shels fired from mortars and howitzers. MLRS,Shels....these are non maneuverable targets with fixed balistic trajectory lunched from ground,while Tor,Pantsir..etc is designed to engage hihgly manueverable aerial targets.If you check Iron Dome set up and Pantsir or Tor,you will see these systems are completly different,in fact Iron Dome is unique set up,and what make it so expencive is fact that it engages targets that in 90% cases cost less than 100$. But I suppose,for Israel money is second issue,so they feel like they can afford it as long it stops certain % of rockets.

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## Sina-1

Soon!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393653480800333825

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## Oldman1

sanel1412 said:


> Well,not all missiles fired by Palestinians are those high precision,90% missiles in barages are unguided artilery rockets or in short MLRS,than they use few of these precise to strike targets. Pantsir,TOR..are not same class as Iron Dome,actualy Iron Dome is completly different system, designed for different targets. Iron Dome is much more expensive and interceptors are expensive like hell....Unlike Pantsir or Tor,Iron Dome is designed to intercept artilery shels and rockets,while Tor and Pantsir are something different,designed to engage aircrafts,cruise missiles and air lunched weapons...So,Iron Dome is not comparable in any terms..with Thor or Pantsir..Iron Dome is unique,designed to engage targets you will never see Pantsir or Tor to engage....like MLRS and shels fired from mortars and howitzers. MLRS,Shels....these are non maneuverable targets with fixed balistic trajectory lunched from ground,while Tor,Pantsir..etc is designed to engage hihgly manueverable aerial targets.If you check Iron Dome set up and Pantsir or Tor,you will see these systems are completly different,in fact Iron Dome is unique set up,and what make it so expencive is fact that it engages targets that in 90% cases cost less than 100$. But I suppose,for Israel money is second issue,so they feel like they can afford it as long it stops certain % of rockets.



The alternative is a destroyed city don't you think its worth spending tens of millions to prevent that? Even if its unguided, its just going all over the place hitting anywhere it goes.


----------



## sha ah

If the Palestinians could, than they would surely prefer to purchase guided munitions so that they could strike at the zionist apartheid forces directly. However the truth is that they cannot purchase such weapons. They have no access or the funds. So they have no choice but to launch unguided munitions

In any case, the Israeli's have some of the most precise missiles on earth, the Palestinians have unguided rockets. Despite this, the Israeli's have killed dozens of Palestinian civilians with 140+ Palestinians dead , whereas Hamas has only managed to kill 10 Israeli civilians ? 

SO who are the victims here ? Who are the terrorists from an undemocratic, apartheid state, who lynch their own Arab citizens under the protection of the police forces ? 








Oldman1 said:


> The alternative is a destroyed city don't you think its worth spending tens of millions to prevent that? Even if its unguided, its just going all over the place hitting anywhere it goes.

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## Sina-1

Sina-1 said:


> Soon!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393653480800333825


Unstable flight trajectory. Wink wink iron dome...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393874476123688961


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## yavar

__





آپارات - سرویس اشتراک ویدیو







www.aparat.com






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393904039528747013

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## makranman

Sina-1 said:


> Unstable flight trajectory. Wink wink iron dome...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393874476123688961


hmmm. how much destruction can 400kgs of tnt do? 

so i don't know if this is accurate or not. but i think Israeli's should evacuate evething around gaza in a few kms radius.

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## sanel1412

Oldman1 said:


> The alternative is a destroyed city don't you think its worth spending tens of millions to prevent that? Even if its unguided, its just going all over the place hitting anywhere it goes.


I dont question their logic,but it is probably not durable in real war scenario against strong oponent,since iron dome is very narrow in its functionality,with many already known flaws and still very expencive ..but yes,it has sense to use it against hamas...that is why I said it is unique in every way and related to Israel position. And,no alternative is not destroyed city,I mean..yes casulties would be much higher but not destroyed,I was in city with of half milion population,for 4 years more than 1000 shels,MLRS,bombs hit it every day and still was not even close to destroyed...tin 90% cases Hamas fire rockets with small wareads. But it would paralize Isreal totaly,so yes,for them it makes sense to spent on Iron Dome. Discusion was about price comparation between iron Dome and Tor,Pantsir...


----------



## Raghfarm007



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## Raghfarm007

Very intereting that the fat pig admits that they are hiding a lot of losses from the izraeli public:

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## Raghfarm007

Jewtube deleted my vide.... so I uploaded it on Aparat:





__





آپارات - سرویس اشتراک ویدیو







aparat.com

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## Stryker1982

I wonder what will be the latest development to be announced in this domain.
Their are so many routes to go down.

Longer ranges in Raad series?
Continuation of Haj Qassem missile?
Revealing the largest ever solid fuel engine tested recently? (Possibly 2m diameters)
Sejjil-3 with Salman 3rd stage?
Perhaps a liquid fuel development.

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396517801792352265

Images from the Ministry of Defense show today that Yassin's remote-controlled bombs were equipped with rocket-propelled grenades, which increased their range.







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396453468181733377

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396694127480299522

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## Surenas

Seems like the Houthis have acquired another batch of Iranian '358 missiles'. They have shot down two Saudi drones within three days. On May 20, a Wing Loong II was shot down and on May 23, a CH-4 was blown into pieces in Yemeni skies.

Video released by the Houthis of the CH-4 shootdown clearly shows the 358 SAM in action:

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## Hack-Hook

Surenas said:


> Seems like the Houthis have acquired another batch of Iranian '358 missiles'. They have shot down two Saudi drones within three days. On May 20, a Wing Loong II was shot down and on May 23, a CH-4 was blown into pieces in Yemeni skies.
> 
> Video released by the Houthis of the CH-4 shootdown clearly shows the 358 SAM in action:


No drone is safe as long as 358 Sam is present. It combine system used in air to air missiles in a manpad package that act like a drone.

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## SOHEIL

Surenas said:


> Seems like the Houthis have acquired another batch of Iranian '358 missiles'. They have shot down two Saudi drones within three days. On May 20, a Wing Loong II was shot down and on May 23, a CH-4 was blown into pieces in Yemeni skies.
> 
> Video released by the Houthis of the CH-4 shootdown clearly shows the 358 SAM in action:



Such stunner !

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## Draco.IMF



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## 925boy

Hack-Hook said:


> No *aircraft* is safe as long as 358 Sam is present. It combine system used in air to air missiles in a manpad package that act like a drone.


There, fixed it for you


----------



## Philip the Arab

925boy said:


> There, fixed it for you


Its too slow for aircraft besides turboprop planes and UAV.


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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> Its too slow for aircraft besides turboprop planes and UAV.


I think it did manage to hit 1 Panavia Tornado in Yemen, among 1 or 2 Apaches and some drones. Theirs many vids on Youtube.

But it's probably very unlikely to strike another jet again. Maybe the pilot was caught off guard, but it seems to do fine against helos, drones and turboprops.


Excuse the annoying music

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## Philip the Arab

Stryker1982 said:


> I think it did manage to hit 1 Panavia Tornado in Yemen, among 1 or 2 Apaches and some drones. Theirs many vids on Youtube.
> 
> But it's probably very unlikely to strike another jet again. Maybe the pilot was caught off guard, but it seems to do fine against helos, drones and turboprops.
> 
> 
> Excuse the annoying music


Tornados are made for low altitude use originally so its likely they were flying very low in the video which is why the missile could catch up.


Seems it was performing low altitude CAS according to wikipedia.

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Stryker1982 said:


> I think it did manage to hit 1 Panavia Tornado in Yemen, among 1 or 2 Apaches and some drones. Theirs many vids on Youtube.
> 
> But it's probably very unlikely to strike another jet again. Maybe the pilot was caught off guard, but it seems to do fine against helos, drones and turboprops.
> 
> 
> Excuse the annoying music


This was probably a ground launched R-27T missile.

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## Oldman1

sha ah said:


> If the Palestinians could, than they would surely prefer to purchase guided munitions so that they could strike at the zionist apartheid forces directly. However the truth is that they cannot purchase such weapons. They have no access or the funds. So they have no choice but to launch unguided munitions
> 
> In any case, the Israeli's have some of the most precise missiles on earth, the Palestinians have unguided rockets. Despite this, the Israeli's have killed dozens of Palestinian civilians with 140+ Palestinians dead , whereas Hamas has only managed to kill 10 Israeli civilians ?
> 
> SO who are the victims here ? Who are the terrorists from an undemocratic, apartheid state, who lynch their own Arab citizens under the protection of the police forces ?



Wait isn't this a contradiction about Iranians helping the Palestinians with providing guided rockets or missiles?


----------



## Menschmaschine

Oldman1 said:


> Wait isn't this a contradiction about Iranians helping the Palestinians with providing guided rockets or missiles?



With the blockade of the Gaza strip supported by the Egyptian Sisi regime the amount of materiel that can be smuggled in is unfortunately limited.

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1399688479550971913

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## Stefano84

Draco.IMF said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1399688479550971913


Iran is becoming a big Gaza

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## WudangMaster

Those missiles in canisters buried in the desert are likely from the Fateh/Zolfaghar family of solid fueled missiles and there is very extensive discussion in this thread regarding this old news.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400386464198836229

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## Iskander

Iran needs something like this 👇





















Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb | Saab


Developed in partnership with Boeing, our GLSDB is exceptionally flexible, highly effective and accurate over long distances.




www.saab.com

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## Oldman1

Menschmaschine said:


> With the blockade of the Gaza strip supported by the Egyptian Sisi regime the amount of materiel that can be smuggled in is unfortunately limited.



The Iranians can't smuggle such materials?


----------



## Mr Iran Eye

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400386464198836229



150 km as worn is incredible and a major asset for Iran.


----------



## mohsen

What we expect from the gang of traitors:









Iran's Rouhani cuts Quds Force budget, blocks missiles manufacturing funds


Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has reportedly reduced the budget allocated to the Revolutionary Guards' elite Quds Forces as well as that for the manufacture of missiles. A source in the office...




www.middleeastmonitor.com

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## WudangMaster

mohsen said:


> What we expect from the gang of traitors:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's Rouhani cuts Quds Force budget, blocks missiles manufacturing funds
> 
> 
> Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has reportedly reduced the budget allocated to the Revolutionary Guards' elite Quds Forces as well as that for the manufacture of missiles. A source in the office...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.middleeastmonitor.com


Can't that sack of excrement be overridden by higher ups? This piece of garbage needs to be executed!

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## Menschmaschine

Oldman1 said:


> The Iranians can't smuggle such materials?


They can and they do, but smuggling of course means more effort in contrast to simply being able to deliver them and so the number of modern missiles available is limited.



mohsen said:


> What we expect from the gang of traitors:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's Rouhani cuts Quds Force budget, blocks missiles manufacturing funds
> 
> 
> Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has reportedly reduced the budget allocated to the Revolutionary Guards' elite Quds Forces as well as that for the manufacture of missiles. A source in the office...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.middleeastmonitor.com


This seems like fake news. Confused and highly implausible numbers: "has suspended the transfer of $3 billion from the Quds Force cash budget, which amounts to $6 billion used to pay the salaries of fighters loyal to Iran in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Yemen "


----------



## mohsen

Menschmaschine said:


> This seems like fake news. Confused and highly implausible numbers: "has suspended the transfer of $3 billion from the Quds Force cash budget, which amounts to $6 billion used to pay the salaries of fighters loyal to Iran in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Yemen "


Numbers I can't judge, since I doubt anybody outside know the true number, also it doesn't dpecify for which period of time this money is.

On the rest of his actions specially the covid19 case, it was a pure treason by all standards.


----------



## Bahram Esfandiari

mohsen said:


> Numbers I can't judge, since I doubt anybody outside know the true number, also it doesn't dpecify for which period of time this money is.
> 
> On the rest of his actions specially the covid19 case, it was a pure treason by all standards.



Don't forget the overnight gas price hike 3 years ago.


----------



## aryobarzan

Budgets have to be approved by the parlement..he can notjust arbitrarily cut some ones budget if it is already approved...so might be fake news..

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## skyshadow

*unconfirmed : 2 month from now Iran is going to unveil its won version of supersonic Kalibr missile.*

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## Hack-Hook

aryobarzan said:


> Budgets have to be approved by the parlement..he can notjust arbitrarily cut some ones budget if it is already approved...so might be fake news..


approval of budget is one part . actually how much of the budget you get is another part


----------



## yavar

skyshadow said:


> *unconfirmed : 2 month from now Iran is going to unveil its won version of supersonic Kalibr missile.*
> 
> View attachment 751065



All I can add is we do have the technology is fully domesticties and they are waiting for this Rohani administration to get out and then unveiling it to the public 

same With IRGC They are waiting for next 2 months so they can start unveiling Whatever needs necessary to be unveiled

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## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> All I can add is we do have the technology is fully domesticties and they are waiting for this Rohani administration to get out and then unveiling it to the public



Iranian Kalibr on pair with russian version or export version?

Are those reverse engineered from the Kalibr missiles who "accidetly" fell in 2015 into Iran or reverse engineered from purchased export version?

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## yavar

Draco.IMF said:


> Iranian Kalibr on pair with russian version or export version?
> 
> Are those reverse engineered from the Kalibr missiles who "accidetly" fell in 2015 into Iran or reverse engineered from purchased export version?


reverse engineered from Russian one very close to the one Russia uses it self

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## yavar



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## skyshadow

Draco.IMF said:


> Iranian Kalibr on pair with russian version or export version?
> 
> Are those reverse engineered from the Kalibr missiles who "accidetly" fell in 2015 into Iran or reverse engineered from purchased export version?


All that i will add to this is *Hell yes*, if Raisi is the next president then he will come in big time and leave with alot of good noises they need to make a good picture out of him, believed or not he could very well be the next supreme leader.

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## Hack-Hook

skyshadow said:


> All that i will add to this is *Hell yes*, if Raisi is the next president then he will come in big time and leave with alot of good noises they need to make a good picture out of him, believed or not he could very well be the next supreme leader.


for average Iranian good noise is good economy not Kalibr and Raisi is a guy once said security is more important than Justice. I still wonder how he want to achieve security without justice.

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## Ich

Hack-Hook said:


> for average Iranian good noise is good economy not Kalibr and Raisi is a guy once said security is more important than Justice. I still wonder how he want to achieve security without justice.



Wasnt there a saying "Without justice there is nothing"?


----------



## Draco.IMF

yavar said:


> All I can add is we do have the technology is fully domesticties and they are waiting for this Rohani administration to get out and then unveiling it to the public
> 
> same With IRGC They are waiting for next 2 months so they can start unveiling Whatever needs necessary to be unveiled



presidental election is in 11 days, lets hope we see something sooner than 2 months from now

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## agarrao a las kalandrakas

yavar said:


> reverse engineered from Russian one very close to the one Russia uses it self



But these Kalibrs crached accidentally in Iran, or were "downed" by Iran?




yavar said:


> All I can add is we do have the technology is fully domesticties and they are waiting for this Rohani administration to get out and then unveiling it to the public
> 
> same With IRGC They are waiting for next 2 months so they can start unveiling Whatever needs necessary to be unveiled



Also, brother @yavar , you have said tons of times IRGC is independent from Rouhani government (unlike Army, Navy etc which "depends" directly to Government).
IRGC could unveil whatever they wanted today, tomorrow, this week...
I don´t understand why IRGC has to wait to Iran's elections etc.

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## yavar

agarrao a las kalandrakas said:


> But these Kalibrs crached accidentally in Iran, or were "downed" by Iran?



couldent be crash, because if you crash it would totally get destroyed
So if IRI Unveil same class of cruise missile it will prove that they were downed


agarrao a las kalandrakas said:


> Also, brother @yavar , you have said tons of times IRGC is independent from Rouhani government (unlike Army, Navy etc which "depends" directly to Government).
> IRGC could unveil whatever they wanted today, tomorrow, this week...
> I don´t understand why IRGC has to wait to Iran's elections etc.

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## Hack-Hook

not necessarily , if you recall when USA attacked Iraq . some Tomahawk fall in khuzestan some in Oman , some got destroyed some were pretty much intact


yavar said:


> couldent be crash, because if you crash it would totally get destroyed
> So if IRI Unveil same class of cruise missile it will prove that they were downed

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## skyshadow

Hack-Hook said:


> for average Iranian good noise is good economy not Kalibr and Raisi is a guy once said security is more important than Justice. I still wonder how he want to achieve security without justice.


don't look at me Raisi is new to me too, yes, good noises can be from military point of view to economy


Draco.IMF said:


> presidental election is in 11 days, lets hope we see something sooner than 2 months from now


2 month from now is close to when 8 year war begun

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## skyshadow

*enjoy





*

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## Iskander

skyshadow said:


> *enjoy
> 
> View attachment 752361
> *


What type of jet engine is this ? Ramjet ?

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## skyshadow

Iskander said:


> What type of jet engine is this ? Ramjet ?


to small to be ramjet, no wind tunnel, sooo turbofan maybe?

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## Cthulhu

Iskander said:


> What type of jet engine is this ? Ramjet ?


I think ramjet engines need an external flow of air in order to operate, You can tell it's not the case based on the test setup.

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## Cthulhu

Speaking of ramjets, Does anyone here have a good resource on ramjet engines?


----------



## Sineva

Cthulhu said:


> Speaking of ramjets, Does anyone here have a good resource on ramjet engines?


Wikipedia is probably the best place to start
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramjet
It should give you a basic overview of the various different developments ranging from aircraft power plants to missile engines and everything in between.After that you can narrow it down to which areas specifically interest you the most.


----------



## Sineva

Excellent video of a scan eagle uav being shot down by a "sam 358" in yemen

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1406712977781297167Best evidence yet of the "sam 358" being used to target drones in yemen

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## foxhoundbis

yavar said:


> reverse engineered from Russian one very close to the one Russia uses it self



@yavar 
Thx friend for your work. Question please if you allow me. Do you have any image of this 3M53 that supposedly fell on Iran's soil?


----------



## Iskander

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412006810869981187

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## aryobarzan

MEMBERS OF A FAMILY.. Engineered and deadly

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## Cthulhu

Iskander said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412006810869981187


This motherfvcker (Fabian) is putting our armed forces to shame.

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## Stryker1982

Cthulhu said:


> This motherfvcker (Fabian) is putting our armed forces to shame.


Keep in mind, sepah will only show what they want to show. They know these sites can be geolocated over time. 

Anything of upmost secrecy is either hidden or underground.

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## Cthulhu

Stryker1982 said:


> Keep in mind, sepah will only show what they want to show. They know these sites can be geolocated over time.
> 
> Anything of upmost secrecy is either hidden or underground.


These motherfvckers are geolocating one sensitive military infrastructure after another because some people can't do their thing without putting up a show, There should always a bunch of cameramen filming a goddam unveiling so they can play it for the public on national TV, "Hey guys we are building solid-fuel rockets here!", And then these motherfvckers geolocate it's location two days later. What other country on this earth does this? What other country shows any kind of information regarding their ballistic missile program for the whole world to see? IRIB is the biggest foreign intelligence agency operating on Iranian soil.

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## Stryker1982

Cthulhu said:


> These motherfvckers are geolocating one sensitive military infrastructure after another because some people can't do their thing without putting up a show, There should always a bunch of cameramen filming a goddam unveiling so they can play it for the public on national TV, "Hey guys we are building solid-fuel rockets here!", And then these motherfvckers geolocate it's location two days later. What other country on this earth does this? What other country shows any kind of information regarding their ballistic missile program for the whole world to see? IRIB is the biggest foreign intelligence agency operating on Iranian soil.


I agree with this, I also believe part of the reasoning is so that Iran’s enemies do not sense weakness or stagnation, the perception of weakness itself is more dangerous than actual weakness. I believe what you say though, only the INSIDE of the facility could’ve been shown, why give the opportunity for sites to be identified is just stupid.


aryobarzan said:


> MEMBERS OF A FAMILY.. Engineered and deadly
> View attachment 759665


I really enjoy the texture, matte I believe it’s called.

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## Cthulhu

Stryker1982 said:


> I agree with this, I also believe part of the reasoning is so that Iran’s enemies do not sense weakness or stagnation, the perception of weakness itself is more dangerous than actual weakness.


No that not the reason, The only reason they do this is because they like to put up a show for every goddam thing, Like the sh!t they did with Mostaan 110. You think them broadcasting the place where they're building solid-fuel propellants to the whole wide world is putting the fear of god in the hearts of Iran’s enemies?! If anything, now every one of them know where to strike.


Stryker1982 said:


> only the INSIDE of the facility could’ve been shown, why give the opportunity for sites to be identified is just stupid.


They shouldn't show inside of the facility either, They shouldn't show any part of it for that matter, This is crazy.


----------



## Shawnee

Cthulhu said:


> No that not the reason, The only reason they do this is because they like to put up a show for every goddam thing, Like the sh!t they did with Mostaan 110. You think them broadcasting the place where they're building solid-fuel propellants to the whole wide world is putting the fear of god in the hearts of Iran’s enemies?! If anything, now every one of them know where to strike.
> 
> They shouldn't show inside of the facility either, They shouldn't show any part of it for that matter, This is crazy.



Every major Iranian missile development was a complete surprise.

1. Shahab 3
2. First SLV
3. First anti-satellite weapon

Very secretive.

It came without us guessing it. I did not expect any of them happening any time soon. Nor likes of Fabian or Armcontrolwonk.

You can fool geolocation if you intend to. It is not difficult.

These are noob games for amateurs.
It is good for psych operations and propaganda too.

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## Cthulhu

Shawnee said:


> Every major Iranian missile development was a comsurprise.
> 
> Shahab 3, First SLV, first anti-satellite weapon
> 
> 
> It came without us guessing it. I did not expect any of them happening any time soon. Nor likes of Fabian or Armcontrolwonk.
> 
> You can fool geolocation if you intend to. It is not difficult.
> 
> These are noob games for amateurs.
> It is good for psych operations and propaganda too.


Yeah yeah yeah our armed forces totally wanted to fool these guys by giving them means to geolocate our major underground missile launch facilities, Totally worth the propaganda and psych operations that their locations are now available online for the whole world. They also totally wanted to fool when they effectively helped our enemies develop Stuxnet by showing them footage from inside of Natanz facilities and helping them to identify the systems and the machines used inside the facility.
I don't know what more ridiculous, What they're doing or what you guys are saying trying to justify it.


----------



## Shawnee

Cthulhu said:


> Yeah yeah yeah our armed forces totally wanted to fool these guys by giving them means to geolocate our major underground missile launch facilities, Totally worth the propaganda and psych operations that their locations are now available online for the whole world. They also totally wanted to fool when they effectively helped our enemies develop Stuxnet by showing them footage from inside of Natanz facilities and helping them to identify the systems and the machines used inside the facility.
> I don't know what more ridiculous, What they're doing or what you guys are saying trying to justify it.



It is not my job to justify it.

Yet I am sure similar to some western analysts that Natanz and Fordow are for political enrichment.
Sabotage has not been able to do more than a dent. Otherwise a deal would not be needed at all. Sabotage would be enough.

Real deal is somewhere else. Do I know where and to what extent? No.


----------



## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> I agree with this, I also believe part of the reasoning is so that Iran’s enemies do not sense weakness or stagnation, the perception of weakness itself is more dangerous than actual weakness. I believe what you say though, only the INSIDE of the facility could’ve been shown, why give the opportunity for sites to be identified is just stupid.
> 
> I really enjoy the texture, matte I believe it’s called.



I've always loathed glossy finishes to anything, always looked cheap and "plastic" you know?


----------



## Cthulhu

Shawnee said:


> It is not my job to justify it.
> 
> Yet I am sure similar to some western analysts that Natanz and Fordow are for political enrichment.
> Sabotage has not been able to do more than a dent. Otherwise a deal would not be needed at all. Sabotage would be enough.
> 
> Real deal is somewhere else. Do I know where and to what extent? No.


Yes the real deal is hidden somewhere else, Like Those hundreds of fighter jets that the Air force is hiding under the mountains or like those fast attack boats and missiles and subs that IRGC Navy is hiding in bases under the Persian gulf waters or that solid-fuel propellant plant that now IRGC is hiding underground...


----------



## Stryker1982

Cthulhu said:


> They shouldn't show inside of the facility either, They shouldn't show any part of it for that matter, This is crazy.


If you go around the world, you will see many defense companies demonstrating the insides of their facilities, this is not uncommon at all.


Blue In Green said:


> I've always loathed glossy finishes to anything, always looked cheap and "plastic" you know?


Indeed, I don't like to much shine/gloss Something about a matte finish gives a high-quality appearance.

Shiny






Matte


----------



## Shawnee

Cthulhu said:


> Yes the real deal is hidden somewhere else, Like Those hundreds of fighter jets that the Air force is hiding under the mountains or like those fast attack boats and missiles and subs that IRGC Navy is hiding in bases under the Persian gulf waters or that solid-fuel propellant plant that now IRGC is hiding underground...



Nobody has ever talked about hidden Airforce power.

We will see.


----------



## Cthulhu

Stryker1982 said:


> If you go around the world, you will see many defense companies demonstrating the insides of their facilities, this is not uncommon at all.


Those videos go under extensive review they blur out or cut its sensitive parts before they release it unlike what our people are doing which is injecting information directly into our enemies veins.


Shawnee said:


> Nobody has ever talked about hidden Airforce power.
> 
> We will see.


Our armchair generals were talking about hidden air power for a long time, Then it turned into hidden naval power, Now it's hidden nuclear power and enrichment facilities and underground solid-fuel propellant plant, All different variants of the same sickening nonsense.


----------



## Shawnee

Cthulhu said:


> Those videos go under extensive review they blur out or cut its sensitive parts before they release it unlike what our people are doing which is injecting information directly into our enemies veins.
> 
> Our armchair generals were talking about hidden air power for a long time, Then it turned into hidden naval power, Now it's hidden nuclear power and enrichment facilities and underground solid-fuel propellant plant, All different variants of the same sickening nonsense.



What Iran truly misses is a media power to avoid losing people to hot psych operations and news headlines.


Looks like you have heard multiple bad headlines recently and lost the psych war.

West is truly good at it. Stay strong brother.

You are talking about the coalition who left Afghanistan in misery and sugarcoated defeat as withdrawal.

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## Cthulhu

Shawnee said:


> What Iran truly misses is a hidden media plant to avoid losing people to hot psych operations and news headlines.
> 
> 
> Looks like you have heard multiple bad headlines and lost the psych war.
> 
> West is truly good at it.


Yes now i'm a victim of western countries' psych war.


----------



## Shawnee

Cthulhu said:


> Yes now i'm a victim of western countries' psych war.




This forum is exactly for the same purpose. To vent your ideas and share it with us. It feels better after you share it.

We are all brothers. Don’t keep it inside yourself.

I have been in your shoes and vented out in the same forum. I was much much worse than you.


----------



## Cthulhu

Shawnee said:


> This forum is exactly for the same purpose. To vent your ideas and share it with us. It feels better after you share it.
> 
> We are all brothers. Don’t keep it inside yourself.
> 
> I have been in your shoes and vented out in the same forum. I was much much worse than you.


LOL


----------



## Smarana Mitra

Shawnee said:


> Every major Iranian missile development was a complete surprise.
> 
> 1. Shahab 3
> 2. First SLV
> 3. First anti-satellite weapon
> 
> Very secretive.
> 
> It came without us guessing it. I did not expect any of them happening any time soon. Nor likes of Fabian or Armcontrolwonk.
> 
> You can fool geolocation if you intend to. It is not difficult.
> 
> These are noob games for amateurs.
> It is good for psych operations and propaganda too.


Do you really think other countries would not be observing the construction activity in Iran using satellites? Large underground structures also need massive material supplies and manpower to construct and that can be easily noticed. Only the public is not informed of the visuals being obtained by the satellites. All the countries that can launch satellites have extremely advanced satellites capable of pinpointing a football in the middle of a stadium. Only those countries that don't have satellite surveillance are the ones that are unable to locate these things


----------



## Stryker1982

Smarana Mitra said:


> Do you really think other countries would not be observing the construction activity in Iran using satellites? Large underground structures also need massive material supplies and manpower to construct and that can be easily noticed. Only the public is not informed of the visuals being obtained by the satellites. All the countries that can launch satellites have extremely advanced satellites capable of pinpointing a football in the middle of a stadium. Only those countries that don't have satellite surveillance are the ones that are unable to locate these things


Their was literally a massive enrichment facility inside a mountain and no one knew what it was until HUMINT informed the CIA or sites where nuclear tests were done weren’t even known until 2 years ago but okay.
IRGC literally ran an entire parallel space program underground and launched a satellite on a TEL to everyone’s surprise while they were starring at a launch pad lol

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## Shawnee

Smarana Mitra said:


> Do you really think other countries would not be observing the construction activity in Iran using satellites? Large underground structures also need massive material supplies and manpower to construct and that can be easily noticed. Only the public is not informed of the visuals being obtained by the satellites. All the countries that can launch satellites have extremely advanced satellites capable of pinpointing a football in the middle of a stadium. Only those countries that don't have satellite surveillance are the ones that are unable to locate these things



NK developed nuke in late 1990s and tested in 2006.
Pakistani developed in 1980s and tested in 1998.

Both as a surprise

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## Smarana Mitra

Shawnee said:


> NK developed nuke in late 1990s and tested in 2006.
> Pakistani developed in 1980s and tested in 1998.
> 
> Both as a surprise


Nothing was a surprise. People knew that Pakistan was going to conduct testing as a response to Indian test. Even in case of NK, the location of the nuclear facilities are well known. Moreover, Satellites can detect the infrastructure construction, not the military actions. This is because infrastructure construction takes lot of time and hence satellites get enough time to scan area by area and detect it.


Stryker1982 said:


> Their was literally a massive enrichment facility inside a mountain and no one knew what it was until HUMINT informed the CIA or sites where nuclear tests were done weren’t even known until 2 years ago but okay.
> IRGC literally ran an entire parallel space program underground and launched a satellite on a TEL to everyone’s surprise while they were starting at a launch pad lol


No Iranian satellite could maintain orbit for more than 2 months. This shows that the satellite launching capability of Iran is still non existent. Merely launching rockets into space is not enough for satellite launches


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## Stryker1982

Smarana Mitra said:


> No Iranian satellite could maintain orbit for more than 2 months. This shows that the satellite launching capability of Iran is still non existent. Merely launching rockets into space is not enough for satellite launches


The Noor satellite has been circulating Earth for more than 1 year now... I remember you, why is everything you say about Iran always wrong. Seriously, you speak with such confidence, do some research first.

As of right now, it is over the South Atlantic Ocean.








Technical details for satellite NOUR 01


NOUR is allegedly the first Iranian military satellite. Images posted by Iranian state media suggest that the launch originated from an IRGC base near Shahroud, about 205 miles (330 km) northeast of the Iranian capital of Tehran....



www.n2yo.com

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## Aramagedon

Accuracy of Iranian missiles:












        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

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## 925boy

Cthulhu said:


> Yes now i'm a victim of western countries' psych war.


where is the lie? most of the world is, simple.


----------



## Shawnee

Smarana Mitra said:


> Nothing was a surprise. People knew that Pakistan was going to conduct testing as a response to Indian test. Even in case of NK, the location of the nuclear facilities are well known. Moreover, Satellites can detect the infrastructure construction, not the military actions. This is because infrastructure construction takes lot of time and hence satellites get enough time to scan area by area and detect it.
> 
> No Iranian satellite could maintain orbit for more than 2 months. This shows that the satellite launching capability of Iran is still non existent. Merely launching rockets into space is not enough for satellite launches



So in case of NK the locations are well known!?

Tell that to the list of US presidents who back to back promised NK will not obtain nuclear weapons.

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## Smarana Mitra

Stryker1982 said:


> The Noor satellite has been circulating Earth for more than 1 year now... I remember you, why is everything you say about Iran always wrong. Seriously, you speak with such confidence, do some research first.
> 
> As of right now, it is over the South Atlantic Ocean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technical details for satellite NOUR 01
> 
> 
> NOUR is allegedly the first Iranian military satellite. Images posted by Iranian state media suggest that the launch originated from an IRGC base near Shahroud, about 205 miles (330 km) northeast of the Iranian capital of Tehran....
> 
> 
> 
> www.n2yo.com


Noor is the only satellite that has lasted in orbit for over 2 months. And that was launched in 2020. Moreover, USA pentagon chief has stated that it is just a tumbling webcam and the real threat is the ICBM development in guise of satellite launch


----------



## DoubleYouSee

نسخه زمین‌پایه موشک الماس رونمایی شد +عکس


نسخه زمین‌پایه موشک ضدزره الماس با برد ۸ کیلومتر رونمایی شد.




www.mashreghnews.ir

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412668311230373890

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412666440621211648

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412657645878747137

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412657309952757762

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## SOHEIL

DoubleYouSee said:


> نسخه زمین‌پایه موشک الماس رونمایی شد +عکس
> 
> 
> نسخه زمین‌پایه موشک ضدزره الماس با برد ۸ کیلومتر رونمایی شد.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mashreghnews.ir

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## mohsen

6 canister-based Fat'h ballistic missiles in one launcher!

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## Muhammed45

mohsen said:


> 6 canister-based Fat'h ballistic missiles in one launcher!


It gives IRGC the power of an artillery with high precision in the long range. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Plus Iranian electronic achievements are also on display.

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## Sina-1

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412668311230373890
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412666440621211648
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412657645878747137
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412657309952757762


We are getting closer and closer to ship launched TBMs of the fateh family. This will be a key strategic asset for power projection.

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## DoubleYouSee

i need my brothers expert help,is this tube related to the cold boost mechanism or it is something else!


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## Bahram Esfandiari

mohsen said:


> 6 canister-based Fat'h ballistic missiles in one launcher!


These canisters look too small to house even the Fateh-110 missiles.

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## yavar



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## Sineva

DoubleYouSee said:


> i need my brothers expert help,is this tube related to the cold boost mechanism or it is something else!


No,its way too small for a cold launch gas generator,not to mention that its in the wrong place,you would expect it to be right on the bottom end of the canister,not on the side of it.In addition the canister has no external reinforcing rings,which you would usually expect for cold launch,plus the end of the canister has a bolted plate over it,this is something you would usually see on a hot launch system,this cover is designed to blow out under pressure just after the motor fires inside the canister.


And heres an ATGM,the ground launched version of the Almaz




This pic has better detail than the previous one that I posted




And heres a view from the other side of the system

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## Sina-1

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> These canisters look too small to house even the Fateh-110 missiles.


Your observation is correct. They are for the fath missile which is much smaller version of fateh 110. There i a picture of it with other versions of fateh where you can clearly see the size difference. I haven’t seen an official spec of it just yet.

edit. Maybe even a smaller rocket…

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412751678957367298

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## Aramagedon

Almost one year old but still so beautiful:













@yavar

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## Stryker1982

Great pic

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## Sina-1

Personally I’m inclined to think the 3x2 launcher houses the fath missile.
compare the biggest fajr (5) rocket in this pick with the new launcher.











You can see that 4 fajr launch tubes in one row with a lot of space to spare. Hence increasing the likelihood that the new launcher belongs to the fath missile, with only 3 (larger) tubes in each row, as officially stated.

for reference, the smaller fath missile marked red in this pic:

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## Sineva

Sina-1 said:


> Personally I’m inclined to think the 3x2 launcher houses the fath missile.
> compare the biggest fajr (5) rocket in this pick with the new launcher.
> View attachment 760358
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that 4 fajr launch tubes in one row with a lot of space to spare. Hence increasing the likelihood that the new launcher belongs to the fath missile, with only 3 (larger) tubes in each row, as officially stated.
> 
> for reference, the smaller fath missile marked red in this pic:
> View attachment 760359


I think you`re spot on there.. 








Check out the size here

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## mohsen

A reminder:





جزییات عملیاتی شدن «تیربار موشک بالستیک» در نیروی زمینی سپاه/ توپخانه ایران آماده سرکوب سامانه‌های پاتریوت در منطقه شد +عکس - مشرق نیوز

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## Oldman1

Sina-1 said:


> Personally I’m inclined to think the 3x2 launcher houses the fath missile.
> compare the biggest fajr (5) rocket in this pick with the new launcher.
> View attachment 760358
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that 4 fajr launch tubes in one row with a lot of space to spare. Hence increasing the likelihood that the new launcher belongs to the fath missile, with only 3 (larger) tubes in each row, as officially stated.
> 
> for reference, the smaller fath missile marked red in this pic:
> View attachment 760359



Whats the size and ragne of that Fath missile in red?


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## Sina-1

Oldman1 said:


> Whats the size and ragne of that Fath missile in red?


I don’t think there are any official specs out there.

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## Stryker1982

Sina-1 said:


> I don’t think there are any official specs out there.





Oldman1 said:


> Whats the size and ragne of that Fath missile in red?


Not familiar with the specs but it would for sure be sub <300km as it is smaller than the original Fateh-110 which has a range of 300km. Probably around 100km?

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> Not familiar with the specs but it would for sure be sub <300km as it is smaller than the original Fateh-110 which has a range of 300km. Probably around 100km?


you maybe able to fire Fateh-110 upto near 300km but, you'll loose all maneuvering capability of its warhead , more realistic range is around 200km more likely on sub side so my guess Fath range would be around 80-100 km now if they change the body to composite material they can increase the range a lot more

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## mohsen

Stryker1982 said:


> Not familiar with the specs but it would for sure be sub <300km as it is smaller than the original Fateh-110 which has a range of 300km. Probably around 100km?


Fateh-110 joined history, now we should compare it with Fateh313 and Zolfaghar which have 500km and 700km range.

This missile is smaller, yet its warhead is smaller too. so I stick around 300km.

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## Shawnee

US finally acknowledged the Chinese silos after two months of fighting done by Decker and Jeffrey Lewis.

Here is the original tweet of this graduate student:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410323395170881537
What matters:
- US preferred to hide it and be silent.
- First talk of missile silo decoys.
Now we should ask where the Iranian decoy missile cities are?

Knowing decoys matters more than real silos.

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## Sineva

Heres an interesting piece I stumbled across.Its a design for a uav which bears a rather striking resemblance to the quds cruise missile,it even uses the same tj100 engine.
One of the interesting ideas was to use the An74 as a carrier and launcher for this weapon.There was a very cleaver rotary launcher in the cargo bay,this used a small parachute to pull the missile backwards out of the launcher.
I think this concept would have a lot of potential for irans soumar and hoveyzeh cruise missiles.




Heres the comparison between the KH-55 cruise missile and the Quds like Kent 2.0 uav.




*http://www.naumenko.info/newsletter/concept-of-a-high-speed.html*

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423045505622450182
Understands nuclear latency and arms reduction verification


----------



## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424780314749063169

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## Stryker1982

Probably the highest quality image of the missile online. You can see the carbon-carbon tip there.

I might just make this my profile pic lol.

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## WudangMaster



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## Stryker1982

*This article was written by the BBC in 2020 btw.*









Iran attack: How strong is Iran's military?


Iran has struck at air bases housing US forces in Iraq in retaliation for the killing of a top general - what military forces does Iran have?



www.bbc.com




_"Iran has up to *50 medium range ballistic missile* *launchers *and up to *100 short range ballistic missile launchers*, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a UK-based think tank."_

This is how delusional these people are. They believe Iran has 50 TELs...

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Stryker1982 said:


> *This article was written by the BBC in 2020 btw.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran attack: How strong is Iran's military?
> 
> 
> Iran has struck at air bases housing US forces in Iraq in retaliation for the killing of a top general - what military forces does Iran have?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Iran has up to *50 medium range ballistic missile* *launchers *and up to *100 short range ballistic missile launchers*, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a UK-based think tank."_
> 
> This is how delusional these people are. They believe Iran has 50 TELs...


Its comforting to know that these are their "experts"!

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## Sina-1

Stryker1982 said:


> *This article was written by the BBC in 2020 btw.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran attack: How strong is Iran's military?
> 
> 
> Iran has struck at air bases housing US forces in Iraq in retaliation for the killing of a top general - what military forces does Iran have?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Iran has up to *50 medium range ballistic missile* *launchers *and up to *100 short range ballistic missile launchers*, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a UK-based think tank."_
> 
> This is how delusional these people are. They believe Iran has 50 TELs...


BBC -> Beyond Bull Crap 💩

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> *This article was written by the BBC in 2020 btw.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran attack: How strong is Iran's military?
> 
> 
> Iran has struck at air bases housing US forces in Iraq in retaliation for the killing of a top general - what military forces does Iran have?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Iran has up to *50 medium range ballistic missile* *launchers *and up to *100 short range ballistic missile launchers*, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a UK-based think tank."_
> 
> This is how delusional these people are. They believe Iran has 50 TELs...



Sweet Jesus...... this sort of misinformation is beyond just simple intellectual dishonesty, it's meant to portray Iran as WAY weaker than it is in order to more easily justify any sort of future military action since, well, they only have FIFTY (!) TELS so how difficult can a war really be? -- Oh my god, how can they sit there are put out this shit? 

Well it is what it is, let them wallow in their ignorance, I for one think this helps Iran immensely.

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## jauk

Blue In Green said:


> Sweet Jesus...... this sort of misinformation is beyond just simple intellectual dishonesty, it's meant to portray Iran as WAY weaker than it is in order to more easily justify any sort of future military action since, well, they only have FIFTY (!) TELS so how difficult can a war really be? -- Oh my god, how can they sit there are put out this shit?
> 
> Well it is what it is, let them wallow in their ignorance, I for one think this helps Iran immensely.



PsyOps. Always psyOps . And that to prop up local populations and denigrate foreign ones. Nothing more and nothing less. And make a penny while at it. Dangerous to all sides.

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## Sineva

Heres a very interesting post,it shows the israeli set up for its jericho II/III missiles,ie storage bunkers etc...
Looking at it I`m actually surprised at just how basic the whole set-up is,the whole thing looks like it dates from the 1960s,and frankly I dont think that it would offer either much protection or survivability at all against modern precision guided weaponry.
It actually reminds me a lot of the saudi basing set-up for the old css-3 irbms,tho that was all built back in the late 80s.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425026467541434369

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425026702854574088

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425027257328877569

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425027640415735825One naturally cant help but notice that Its all in rather stark contrast to the size,scale and sophistication of irans modern missile facilities.

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## Stryker1982

Any sort of reasonable person can assume


Sineva said:


> Heres a very interesting post,it shows the israeli set up for its jericho II/III missiles,ie storage bunkers etc...
> Looking at it I`m actually surprised at just how basic the whole set-up is,the whole thing looks like it dates from the 1960s,and frankly I dont think that it would offer either much protection or survivability at all against modern precision guided weaponry.
> It actually reminds me a lot of the saudi basing set-up for the old css-3 irbms,tho that was all built back in the late 80s.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425026467541434369
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425026702854574088
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425027257328877569
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425027640415735825One naturally cant help but notice that Its all in rather stark contrast to the size,scale and sophistication of irans modern missile facilities.


Very interesting....

Their is some degree of hardening here, but also quite exposed relative to Iran's basing methods as you said. 

Seems like they've divided alot their materials around for setup at a later time when needed instead of "ready to launch" mode the Americans and Russians are at 24/7.

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## Shawnee

John Hyten proposal is vague. I am not impressed.









Hyten: To counter hypersonic missiles DoD needs ‘overhead sensors that see everything’ - SpaceNews


Sensors in space that can detect and track hypersonic missiles should be at the top of DoD’s wish list, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. John Hyten said Aug. 11.




spacenews.com

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## Aramagedon

Old but gold:

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## Draco.IMF

Hello guys, can someone please translate what he is saying at ~ 3:41, should be something important, thanks in advance

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## DoubleYouSee

Draco.IMF said:


> Hello guys, can someone please translate what he is saying at ~ 3:41, should be something important, thanks in advance


regarding to this type of composite intake and engine we would be able to make anti sat missiles which are able to hit the sat out of the atmosphere
as these type of engines do not weigh alot they could be used for the tactical agile missiles as well.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429515691422519304

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429515691422519304


Gel fuel. Interesting. I've never known the existence of such type of fuel.

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## skyshadow

*Iran is testing it's own scramjet with the speed of Mach 5, before that we only had ramjet with the speed of Mach 2.7


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429425398773952514*

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> Gel fuel. Interesting. I've never known the existence of such type of fuel.


there's always a 3rd way 😉

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## Aramagedon



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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434739228752195590

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## Draco.IMF

So it seems that the" strategic limited range" of Iranian missiles which was* 2000km* will be extended to *3000km ... *warning to Europe?



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434935548926332932

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434948117129011207

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## skyshadow

*Iranian Army (traditional Army, not IRGC) logo now has two missiles added to it representing the Air Defense Force which is an independent force along with Air Force (eagle), Ground Force (swords), and Navy (anchor).





*

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## skyshadow

*How Iran’s Missile Strategy has Rewritten the Rules of Middle Eastern Wars*


















How Iran’s Missile Strategy has Rewritten the Rules of Middle Eastern Wars


Stretching from Lebanon to Gaza and Yemen, Iran has built an extraordinary military alliance. The core of it is Tehran’s homegrown missile program, one that has given its allies surprising abilities — and poses a fundamental, long-term problem for the United States’ role in the Middle East.




newlinesmag.com

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## sha ah

These are all political games being played. A modified Khorramshahr can reach London and they unveiled that missile 4 years ago. Iran can already build ICBMs if desired. They're just showing off a fraction of their true capabilities.

Anyways now since the west is sanctioning Iran, why bother limiting the range so that Europeans feel less threatened and more comfortable ? They have nukes already and they're the ones coming into Iran's backyard building bases, bombing countries, wrecking everything. 

Iran should keep gradually increasing the range of its missiles and and enrichment rate in small increments until one day Iran unveils nuclear ICBM's. They'll have no choice but to accept it. What else can they do about it ? They're already sanctioning Iran to the max and Iran's economy is growing now regardless. 

Realistically this was not even Iran's choice. They were the ones who don't want to live up to their commitments.



Draco.IMF said:


> So it seems that the" strategic limited range" of Iranian missiles which was* 2000km* will be extended to *3000km ... *warning to Europe?
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434935548926332932
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434948117129011207

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## Sineva

Draco.IMF said:


> So it seems that the" strategic limited range" of Iranian missiles which was* 2000km* will be extended to *3000km ... *warning to Europe?
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434935548926332932
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434948117129011207


Some very,very big news If this is true.
With this announcement It would seem increasingly very likely that the khorramshar is now going to be inducted into service at some point,and not just with some super heavy warhead to limit its range to only 2000kms.The other possibility would be a new as yet unknown solid fueled missile,possibly based on the new larger diameter motor that was unveiled during the last irgc slv test,and theres also the possibility of the original turbofan+conformal fuel tank equipped soumar cruise missile as well.
This could be to further underline to the west that there wont be any negotiations on missiles,as one of the strategies that western commentators were suggesting was trying to get iran to agree to a formalized range limit,however one can easily see all of the problems even with this apparently simple idea.
This would also seem to send a pretty clear message to the europeans/nato nations as well.

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## mohsen

Accuracy of South Korean Ballistic missiles or work of Hollywood trained South Korean drama directors?






My bet is om the second!

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## Stryker1982

mohsen said:


> Accuracy of South Korean Ballistic missiles or work of Hollywood trained South Korean drama directors?
> 
> View attachment 778118
> 
> 
> My bet is om the second!



It does seem legit, but I don't think anyone in the world can guide a ballistic missile with this level of accuracy even with full GPS usage, it's gonna be atleast a few meters CEP. Maybe lucky shot to hit the middle instead of the sides.

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## Sineva

Stryker1982 said:


> It does seem legit, but I don't think anyone in the world can guide a ballistic missile with this level of accuracy even with full GPS usage, it's gonna be atleast a few meters CEP. Maybe lucky shot to hit the middle instead of the sides.


One very likely possibility imho,is that this is an as yet undisclosed variant using an optronic seeker/dsmac combo of some sort for very accurate final targeting,this also might very well account for the rather over the top "bullseye" type color target that they`ve set up.

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## mohsen

Stryker1982 said:


> It does seem legit, but I don't think anyone in the world can guide a ballistic missile with this level of accuracy even with full GPS usage, it's gonna be atleast a few meters CEP. Maybe lucky shot to hit the middle instead of the sides.


It's trajectory, speed and the state of the warhead plus the lack of controlling surfaces means it's just a barrel released from a helicopter, and that's a lucky shot (release)!


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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438442682779586564

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## Oldman1

mohsen said:


> It's trajectory, speed and the state of the warhead plus the lack of controlling surfaces means it's just a barrel released from a helicopter, and that's a lucky shot (release)!


You need to watch the video and look carefully. It does have control surfaces and and they are accurate weapons. Past videos have shown this. May be off by 1 or 2 feet but that’s why it’s CEP.


Stryker1982 said:


> It does seem legit, but I don't think anyone in the world can guide a ballistic missile with this level of accuracy even with full GPS usage, it's gonna be atleast a few meters CEP. Maybe lucky shot to hit the middle instead of the sides.


Off center by couple of inches to the left.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Draco.IMF said:


> So it seems that the" strategic limited range" of Iranian missiles which was* 2000km* will be extended to *3000km ... *warning to Europe?
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434935548926332932
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434948117129011207


So you guys are also sticking with some so called strategic range?
Same is the case with us (max 2750km only) .
But I think our military don't want to improve Shaheen 3 further and will go with this monster:

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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> You need to watch the video and look carefully. It does have control surfaces and and they are accurate weapons. Past videos have shown this. May be off by 1 or 2 feet but that’s why it’s CEP.
> 
> Off center by couple of inches to the left.



I'm slightly skeptical just on the basis that no one can hit directly on the bullseye like that, even USA JASSMs with full access to military grade GPS has a few meters CEP, same with Israeli Rampage with about 10m CEP, and Russian Iskandar around 5m CEP. This would probably be the most accurate ballistic missile in the world if it wasn't luck.


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## Stryker1982

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> So you guys are also sticking with some so called strategic range?
> Same is the case with us (max 2750km only) .
> But I think our military don't want to improve Shaheen 3 further and will go with this monster:
> View attachment 778271


Depends on the threat perceptions of course.

Shaheen-3 covers Pakistan's military needs vis a vie India. If Pakistan senses a military threat from further distances (i.e. Europe) I can see expansion of missile range, but for the foreseeable future it seems that 2750km pretty much covers everything while fully taking advantage of Pakistan's natural strategic depth

For Iran, 2000km was label as max range under a political basis. It allows for Iran to utilize it's strategic depth to fire missiles at Israel in case of attack but this could also apply to any country in conflict with Iran. This limit also avoids annoying Europe who would be very unhappy being in range of Iran who is also a nuclear threshold state. The times are changing and Iran does have the pieces available to create 4000km range IRBM, but it has not officially put them together to unveil it.

Perhaps if Iran sense a threat from European states like the UK and France who might join the US/Israel who is whining ever day to attack Iran (If that ever happens), they can put these pieces together quickly as a surprise Trump card if they haven't already done it.

For them, the danger is abundantly clear.
They say 5 weeks till Iran if it chooses would have enough fissile material for a nuclear bomb -> Take existing missile stocks, add the second stage solid fuel booster (Salman engine), attach miniaturized nuclear warhead and in maybe 2 months time, Europe would have a nuclear Iran with Western Europe ranges....This completely changes their security calculations "overnight".

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> I'm slightly skeptical just on the basis that no one can hit directly on the bullseye like that, even USA JASSMs with full access to military grade GPS has a few meters CEP, same with Israeli Rampage with about 10m CEP, and Russian Iskandar around 5m CEP. This would probably be the most accurate ballistic missile in the world if it wasn't luck.



You can be slightly skeptical all you want, just know JASSMs can hit death center as well if not always. 





South Korea has done it in the past as well as recent different weapons test.


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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> You can be slightly skeptical all you want, just know JASSMs can hit death center as well if not always.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea has done it in the past as well as recent different weapons test.


Fair enough. Good point

I had just looked at the official reported CEP for JASSMs and based it off that. Either way even a 10m CEP missile is extremely deadly weapon let alone 1m.

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## skyshadow

one of Fateh missile gas cylinders , man just look at it i will not pick it up if it was in garbage, only GOD can help our marketing department at this point, if it was Turkish الان هم خودشون هم مارو پاره کرده بودن از تبلیغات













Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> So you guys are also sticking with some so called strategic range?
> Same is the case with us (max 2750km only) .
> But I think our military don't want to improve Shaheen 3 further and will go with this monster:
> View attachment 778271


get out of it while you can save your self, we are in it too deep, but you really do not need anything more then that you guys do not have a enemy out of 3000 kms and Shaheen 3 as you know is a good platform to do heavy upgrades on.

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> one of Fateh missile gyroscopes , man just look at it i will not pick it up if it was in garbage, only GOD can help our marketing department at this point, if it was Turkish الان هم خودشون هم مارو پاره کرده بودن از تبلیغات
> 
> 
> View attachment 779705
> 
> 
> View attachment 779707
> 
> 
> get out of it while you can save your self, we are in it too deep, but you really do not need anything more then that you guys do not have a enemy out of 3000 kms and Shaheen 3 as you know is a good platform to do heavy upgrades on.


Beautiful gyroscope!

Unfortunately we have the worst marketing and public relations teams in the world, especially in the Department of Defense. We do not advertise properly, we do not even use high-grade cameras, looking at military parades of the country, they do not even use HD cameras. It's hard for me to understand because it is so easy to do, and lots of qualified young people are capable of doing well in this field. They do not value this field at all, which does an injustice to our engineers.

*Example 1:* US HIMARS





Look how they promote their equipment,

Could such video about the Zolfiqar missile, with dual launcher TEL not be created? Sure it can!

*Example 2*

This is how Idlib Extremist groups advertise our the Safir Jeep





They've done a great service for us lol.

Thankfully it does seem that this era of poor quality marketing is closing, the team at IMA media for example are doing a great job with promotion, hopefully more to come.

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> Beautiful gyroscope!
> 
> Unfortunately we have the worst marketing and public relations teams in the world, especially in the Department of Defense. We do not advertise properly, we do not even use high-grade cameras, looking at military parades of the country, they do not even use HD cameras. It's hard for me to understand because it is so easy to do, and lots of qualified young people are capable of doing well in this field. They do not value this field at all, which does an injustice to our engineers.
> 
> *Example 1:* US HIMARS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look how they promote their equipment,
> 
> Could such video about the Zolfiqar missile, with dual launcher TEL not be created? Sure it can!
> 
> *Example 2*
> 
> This is how Idlib Extremist groups advertise our the Safir Jeep
> View attachment 779708
> 
> They've done a great service for us lol.
> 
> Thankfully it does seem that this era of poor quality marketing is closing, the team at IMA media for example are doing a great job with promotion, hopefully more to come.


man even Hezbollah - Hashed al Shabi - Hamas or Yemen are doing better job advertising Iranian hardware like missiles and drones and other products then us

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> man even Hezbollah - Hashed al Shabi - Hamas or Yemen are doing better job advertising Iranian hardware like missiles and drones and other products then us


Yes, they do not put alot of value in this very important sector.
For example, the people of Lebanon who may have mixed views about Hezbollah do not think Hezbollah is weak, nor do they think that Israel can destroy Hezbollah in battle.

Yet in Iran, the impression of many people is that Iran is militarily weak, and even Azerbaijan is stronger than Iran. While these people are ignorant on their own, it is the fault of the defense ministry and IRGC for not educating the population. Not with words that people don't understand, but with visuals, promotional videos, exactly like the great scenes we saw in the missile exercise that was shown by IMA media. It shut alot of mouths. This has been lacking for many many years but I do believe they are more focused on itnow. Atleast the IRGC is.

Look at the Hollywood style video Hezbollah made to promote itself. This is not even a country, this is an organization producing high quality media content. Hamas to a lesser extent, but they still understand it's importance well. The fools in our country do not even realize with 1 operation, Iran's missile corps can destroy every important military and civilian infrastructure of most countries because of its very large quantity of missiles.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424104623812579329

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> Yes, they do not put alot of value in this very important sector.
> For example, the people of Lebanon who may have mixed views about Hezbollah do not think Hezbollah is weak, nor do they think that Israel can destroy Hezbollah in battle.
> 
> Yet in Iran, the impression of many people is that Iran is militarily weak, and even Azerbaijan is stronger than Iran. While these people are ignorant on their own, it is the fault of the defense ministry and IRGC for not educating the population. Not with words that people don't understand, but with visuals, promotional videos, exactly like the great scenes we saw in the missile exercise that was shown by IMA media. It shut alot of mouths. This has been lacking for many many years but I do believe they are more focused on itnow. Atleast the IRGC is.
> 
> Look at the Hollywood style video Hezbollah made to promote itself. This is not even a country, this is an organization producing high quality media content. Hamas to a lesser extent, but they still understand it's importance well. The fools in our country do not even realize with 1 operation, Iran's missile corps can destroy every important military and civilian infrastructure of most countries because of its very large quantity of missiles.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424104623812579329


agreed 1000%, the sheer number of Iran ballistic missiles and drones are enough to deter even US let alone small countries

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## jauk

skyshadow said:


> man even Hezbollah - Hashed al Shabi - Hamas or Yemen are doing better job advertising Iranian hardware like missiles and drones and other products then us


Hezbollah has always had superior messaging. We should learn from them...although yes, messaging is improving. I've screamed this for over a decade. I agree the IRI doesn't seem to understand the power it brings.

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## makranman

what is "شعاع مرگ"?
does it mean "everything will be destroyed in 50m radius?"

also, as it turns out, the Shahab 3 is out of service. I wonder what happens to the boosters? there should be hundreds of boosters and engines and...

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Is Iran working on any Ramjet Supersonic Cruise missile? Submarine launched Supersonic Cruise missile will add new capabilities for Iranian Navy.


skyshadow said:


> you guys do not have a enemy out of 3000 kms


Actually new capabilities are required as not only India is our enemy but also Israel.They were heavily involved in _*operation kahuta*_ against our nuclear sites. they will not do such mistake again but can we trust them?

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## skyshadow

makranman said:


> View attachment 780014
> 
> View attachment 780015
> 
> what is "شعاع مرگ"?
> does it mean "everything will be destroyed in 50m radius?"
> 
> also, as it turns out, the Shahab 3 is out of service. I wonder what happens to the boosters? there should be hundreds of boosters and engines and...


yes

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## skyshadow

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Is Iran working on any Ramjet Supersonic Cruise missile? Submarine launched Supersonic Cruise missile will add new capabilities for Iranian Navy.
> 
> Actually new capabilities are required as not only India is our enemy but also Israel.They were heavily involved in _*operation kahuta*_ against our nuclear sites. they will not do such mistake again but can we trust them?


yes Iran is working on a Mach 2.7 ramjet engine and a Mach 5 scramjet engine for supersonic anti ship missiles. well a lot will be added to Iran navy power when they add VLS (vertical launch system) which is in final mass production phase.

you see 3000 km is more then enough for Israel an India but you need more is you want a satellite launch vehicle, trusting a enemies of Islam is like trusting a old hand grenade it could go off at any second.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

skyshadow said:


> Mach 2.7 ramjet engine


Lets see who brings its missile first in field Iran or Pakistan  
Positive competition is always good for development of humans

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## aryobarzan

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Lets see who brings its missile first in field Iran or Pakistan
> Positive competition is always good for development of humans


I will be happy to see either country to field a Mach 5 or more vehicle...iran has a Mach 8 wind tunnel and as far as I know this is the only one around in the region besides India..correct me if I am wrong about Pakistan plans to test Mach ++ vehicles


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

aryobarzan said:


> Mach 5


Supersonic Cruise missiles travel at 2.5 to 4 mach.we are working on antiship Supersonic Cruise missile as you know India has very capable Israeli air defence system Barak 8 so we can not rely on subsonic missiles only.our Ballistic missile re entry vehicles are already traveling at above mach 10 .but hypersonic cruise missiles are altogether different game.


aryobarzan said:


> iran has a Mach 8 wind tunnel and as far as I know this is the only one around in the region besides India.


Only three countries in this region work on missiles.we don't know much about windtunnels in pakistan.so may be we have hypersonic wind tunnel may be not.
But after Supersonic missile we will work on hypersonic cruise missiles for which hypersonic wind tunnels will be needed so then our engineers Will build one if not present already.t


aryobarzan said:


> I will be happy to see either country


That's your love for humanity ❤️

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## skyshadow

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Lets see who brings its missile first in field Iran or Pakistan
> Positive competition is always good for development of humans


agreed 1000%, you better move fast the engine is almost done

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> agreed 1000%, you better move fast the engine is almost done
> 
> View attachment 780171
> 
> 
> View attachment 780172



Honestly thank god for these people, otherwise we'd be so f***ed. Lots of smart guys in Iran.


makranman said:


> View attachment 780014
> 
> View attachment 780015
> 
> what is "شعاع مرگ"?
> does it mean "everything will be destroyed in 50m radius?"
> 
> also, as it turns out, the Shahab 3 is out of service. I wonder what happens to the boosters? there should be hundreds of boosters and engines and...



Yeah, 50 meters is the lethal radius which makes sense for this class missile.

I don't think they'd scrap the Shahab-3's unless they have a good use for the materials, these liquid fuel missiles can last for decades in storage as extra inventory. The more missiles the better

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## Iranitaakharin

Stryker1982 said:


> I don't think they'd scrap the Shahab-3's unless they have a good use for the materials, these liquid fuel missiles can last for decades in storage as extra inventory. The more missiles the better



Many of the Shahab-3s have been converted to Ghadr-110s.

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## Stryker1982

Iranitaakharin said:


> Many of the Shahab-3s have been converted to Ghadr-110s.


Makes sense!


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## makranman

Stryker1982 said:


> Honestly thank god for these people, otherwise we'd be so f***ed. Lots of smart guys in Iran.
> 
> 
> Yeah, 50 meters is the lethal radius which makes sense for this class missile.
> 
> I don't think they'd scrap the Shahab-3's unless they have a good use for the materials, these liquid fuel missiles can last for decades in storage as extra inventory. The more missiles the better


seems reasonable.
here is an idea: making reusable boosters for BMs and using these for testing.
though I'm not sure we can use these boosters for that. I mean SpaceX's engines are lit at least twice during the flight. also, those engines have a few degrees of gimbaling.
I think we can do what rocket lab does. using parachutes. apparently, NASA did something similar for space shuttle boosters.



Iranitaakharin said:


> Many of the Shahab-3s have been converted to Ghadr-110s.


Huh. ghadr 110? If I'm not mistaken, they used a ghadr booster for ghased SLV. so it means the reusable BM is not going to happen.


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## Stryker1982

Someone posted this a long while ago but I forgot who, I just want to remind everyone.







😂😂😂😂

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## Stryker1982

@PeeD 









N.Korea joins race for new hypersonic missile with latest test


North Korea test-fired a newly developed hypersonic missile this week, state news media KCNA reported on Wednesday, joining a race headed by major military powers to deploy the advanced weapons system.




www.reuters.com





With this news, if Iran were to have successfully created a HGV version of the Haj Qasem. Would such a asset be considered a "black asset" i.e., never unveiled formally because of the glide range implications or would it be likely that Hajizadeh would unveil when or if it is created and the time is right.

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## PeeD

Stryker1982 said:


> @PeeD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N.Korea joins race for new hypersonic missile with latest test
> 
> 
> North Korea test-fired a newly developed hypersonic missile this week, state news media KCNA reported on Wednesday, joining a race headed by major military powers to deploy the advanced weapons system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this news, if Iran were to have successfully created a HGV version of the Haj Qasem. Would such a asset be considered a "black asset" i.e., never unveiled formally because of the glide range implications or would it be likely that Hajizadeh would unveil when or if it is created and the time is right.



Probably already existing. Remember those two anti-ship Sejil launches, early this year?
I think they did it with a HGV, but never showed it.

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## Websorber

*Images of a damaged building after a fire or explosion West of Tehran*




*Connected to this article*
https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/140...el-Maryred-in-Fire-a-Research-Cener-in-Tehran

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## Draco.IMF

Websorber said:


> *Images of a damaged building after a fire or explosion West of Tehran*
> View attachment 781249
> 
> *Connected to this article*
> https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/140...el-Maryred-in-Fire-a-Research-Cener-in-Tehran


sabotage or not, thats the question....I think it was one...


----------



## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445398067033878530

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446066657659703297

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446066666048217090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1446066671123419136

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## Draco.IMF

Do we have more info about this misterious gel propulsion?


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## aryobarzan

Looks like someone has started a commercial/marketing naming standard for the missiles:

The first letters : (type of the missile)

digits represent the range in Km:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447658640605908994

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447657604885491719

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447656171440152580

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447655352535818242

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447654439469428736

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447653550402703367https://twitter.com/i/status/1447652604243218432
https://twitter.com/i/status/1447424844912529412

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450475842082123785
Is this ever tested?

Also I am still looking for NK Salman booster.

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## Shawnee

The legendary missile is found in Iraq intact.

First time we see the launcher. It was not shoulder mounted as I guessed. Yet very novel and ingenious.

https://****/c/1224857745/120222

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451142146476621829
@PeeD

I would like to hear your thoughts on SK launch and if the Salman equal was used.

Thanks

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## skyshadow

Shawnee said:


> I would like to hear your thoughts on SK launch and if the Salman equal was used.
> 
> Thanks



It failed to put the dummy satellite up in 700kms, the technology ( Salman equal ) is relatively new for them









South Korea fails to put dummy satellite into orbit | CNN


South Korea failed to put a dummy satellite into orbit on Thursday after the first launch of its domestically developed three-stage Nuri rocket, the country's President Moon Jae-in announced on Thursday.




edition.cnn.com

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## SalarHaqq

skyshadow said:


> It failed to put the dummy satellite up in 700kms, the technology ( Salman equal ) is relatively new for them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea fails to put dummy satellite into orbit | CNN
> 
> 
> South Korea failed to put a dummy satellite into orbit on Thursday after the first launch of its domestically developed three-stage Nuri rocket, the country's President Moon Jae-in announced on Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com



Iran is evidently more advanced than south Korea in ballistic missile technology, design and production (and will stay so for the foreseeable future).

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## skyshadow

SalarHaqq said:


> Iran is evidently more advanced than south Korea in ballistic missile technology, design and production (and will stay so for the foreseeable future).


IRGC, remember defense ministry is working on its won engines.

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## Draco.IMF

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451233809442217997


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## Shawnee

Shawnee said:


> The legendary missile is found in Iraq intact.
> 
> First time we see the launcher. It was not shoulder mounted as I guessed. Yet very novel and ingenious.
> 
> https://****/c/1224857745/120222
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451142146476621829
> @PeeD
> 
> I would like to hear your thoughts on SK launch and if the Salman equal was used.
> 
> Thanks



Nice catch.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451147694899138563

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## Hack-Hook

Shawnee said:


> Nice catch.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451147694899138563


it not even launched , they put a complete intact missile without removing the protective cap for them to find , there is not a dent on the missile


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## mohsen

Hack-Hook said:


> it not even launched , they put a complete intact missile without removing the protective cap for them to find , there is not a dent on the missile


It was found by the so called Iran proxy forces! so either US wanted to put some blame on resistance forces, or resistance wanted to send a message to US and avoid future responsibility.









Iraqi Militias Show Off Iranian Anti-Air Missile


Iran-backed resistance groups are seemingly staging missile "discoveries" as a way of warning off coalition air forces.




www.washingtoninstitute.org


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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451838964265070596
*I do*.

Surface to air and surface to ground missile.
Launch-able from ground and truck (not shoulder).

When used as SAM, it will look like Majid launcher or the same as this picture with manual prep.


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## skyshadow

*mysteries of missile 358 continues, just look at its GPS device is it familiar?*

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## skyshadow

*God daaaaamn, breaking news: Iran has succeeded in testing ICBM solid fuel engine *


Around mid-March, a large burn scar appeared in the rocket motor test stand area. This was the first time Iranian engineers had made use of this test stand, the largest of the four in the area, indicating that *they have reached a milestone in terms of the size of the motors.*


















Iran’s Military Space Program Picks up Speed - New Lines Institute


Recently captured satellite imagery shows Iran’s efforts to produce bigger and better rockets that, because of their dual-use nature, could bring the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps closer to having intercontinental ballistic missiles.




newlinesinstitute.org

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## GWXP

skyshadow said:


> *God daaaaamn, breaking news: Iran has succeeded in testing ICBM solid fuel engine *
> 
> 
> Around mid-March, a large burn scar appeared in the rocket motor test stand area. This was the first time Iranian engineers had made use of this test stand, the largest of the four in the area, indicating that *they have reached a milestone in terms of the size of the motors.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 788350
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran’s Military Space Program Picks up Speed - New Lines Institute
> 
> 
> Recently captured satellite imagery shows Iran’s efforts to produce bigger and better rockets that, because of their dual-use nature, could bring the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps closer to having intercontinental ballistic missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> newlinesinstitute.org


1) according to Fabian Hintz, Test Stand 4 has a thrust between 164-246 tons




2) according to Uzi Rubin's article *"Iran’s winged horse rocket: Another step towards global reach"*, Sarir is a "*a giant three-stage solid-propellant SLV with an estimated take-off weight of almost 160 tons*"

3) So we can assume that engine from Test Stand 4 is an engine for Sarir, which is a giant solid fuel SLV

Characteristics of Sarir:

Height: 35m
Diameter: 2,4m
Weight: ~160 tons (based on Uzi Rubin's article)
Thrust: ~190 tons
Payload to LEO: 1800kg

Compare it with US's solid fuel SLV *Athena II:*




__





Athena-2


Athena-2




www.astronautix.com





Height: 28,2m
Diameter: 2,36m
Weight: 120 tons
Thrust: 145 tons
Payload to 185km orbit: 2065kg

So as you can see Sarir is more or less comparable to Athena II (*the same 2,4m diameter solid fuel engines)*

Athena II on the other hand is a modification of* US Peacekeeper heavy ICBM* which can deliver 3,8 tons to 10.000km distance

4) So it is possible that Iran works on two types of solid fuel ICBMs:

1st type----light ICBM which can deliver 1 ton payload to 12.000km (Zuljanah-2)

2nd type----heavy silo based ICBM (_in a class of Peacekeeper_) which can deliver 4-5 tons to 12.000km (Qaem=Sarir)

Even on this picture, Sarir looks like a modified heavy ICBM

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## skyshadow

*Sejil ballistic missile
*

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455629750366507011

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## Sineva

Nice opening shot of an ashcm launch

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1457654708449984512

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## yavar



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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow



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## skyshadow

*did anyone see a new SLV computer model in national TV last night ?*

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## skyshadow



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## yavar

skyshadow said:


> *did anyone see a new SLV computer model in national TV last night ?*


which channal ??


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## skyshadow

yavar said:


> which channal ??


6, it had very specific design but unlike anything we or other countries have


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## R Wing

What are the most advanced missiles Iran currently possesses? 

And I hope they have some plan to get through the Iron Dome and related defense systems. Hamas rockets can overwhelm the system but those were cheap and in the thousands (and still most got intercepted). What about Iran's missiles?


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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow

R Wing said:


> What are the most advanced missiles Iran currently possesses?
> 
> And I hope they have some plan to get through the Iron Dome and related defense systems. Hamas rockets can overwhelm the system but those were cheap and in the thousands (and still most got intercepted). What about Iran's missiles?


that will be Sejil-2 missiles but our most powerful is Khorramshahr-2 missiles with its Mach 16 speed and 1500 km warhead, as you may know Iron Dome is a short range defensive missile not designed for ballistic missiles but to go through Israel defense from Iran it self we have built 2 kind of ballistic missiles one goes up and out of earth atmosphere and the other ( quasi ballistic missiles ) moves inside of atmosphere 


*Khorramshahr-2 ballistic missile*







*quasi ballistic missiles*

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## R Wing

skyshadow said:


> that will be Sejil-2 missiles but our most powerful is Khorramshahr-2 missiles with its Mach 16 speed and 1500 km warhead, as you may know Iron Dome is a short range defensive missile not designed for ballistic missiles but to go through Israel defense from Iran it self we have built 2 kind of ballistic missiles one goes up and out of earth atmosphere and the other ( quasi ballistic missiles ) moves inside of atmosphere
> 
> 
> *Khorramshahr-2 ballistic missile*
> 
> View attachment 792963
> 
> 
> 
> *quasi ballistic missiles*
> 
> View attachment 792967



Deterrence must be maintained against the Zionists.

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## yavar



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## skyshadow

R Wing said:


> Deterrence must be maintained against the Zionists.


Its not deterrence any more it's a arms race at this point as Israelis themselves say it's a race to close the technology gap with Iran, Israel is country with 8 million people Iran is 80 million that means more brain power to win the technology race in long run


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## Darius77

skyshadow said:


> Its not deterrence any more it's a arms race at this point as Israelis themselves say it's a race to close the technology gap with Iran, Israel is country with 8 million people Iran is 80 million that means more brain power to win the technology race in long run


Beyond technology, in military strategic planning STRATEGIC MASS is the most critical element. Zionist Jews are about 7 million in Occupied Palestine. The _current population_ of the Islamic Republic of _Iran_ is 85,454,638 as of Friday, November 12, 2021, based on Worldometer elaboration. Iran's land mass is 1.64 million sq kms. The sheer weight of Iranian manpower, military, resources will wear out the Zionists in less than month and they know it. That is the reason they just bark. Conventional asymmetrical warfare chews up manpower and resources very fast and with less than 2 million eligible manpower the Zionists will simply fold in combat in a few weeks. Iran also has around 300,000 armed militias operating in the region. Top among them is Hezbollah with 100,000 active members as Sayyed Nasrallah last month acknowledged. Iran can mobilize over 40 million military age men.

Iran is also graduating around 283,000 engineers and hard science students annually, so the critical technological mass also favors Iran. If the sanctions are lifted Iranian economy will grow at double digits for a decade at least, pushing it in top 10 economies. There will also be a massive technology infusion.

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## aryobarzan

Darius77 said:


> Iran is also graduating around 283,000 engineers and hard science students annually, so the critical technological mass also favors Iran. If the sanctions are lifted Iranian economy will grow at double digits for a decade at least, pushing it in top 10 economies.


Very true statement regarding the economy....more than the weapons that Iran can field it is the *"Potential Economy of Iran* " that scares the zionists and the Southern Arabs of the Persian gulf.

I am always disappointed how little this weapon of "economy" gets attention by the Iranians in the PDF...China became No1 via her Economy not weapons...


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## sha ah

Iran and Israel dont even share a border and 40 million men would still need to be armed. 

The Israelis are very well armed while Iran's army is still in the process of modernizing.

The most important factor is that the US supports Israel unequivocally both militarily and economically. 

If the number one priority of Iran's rulers was Iranian people's welfare and prosperity then Iran would be a different country.

Unfortunately they are more concerned about Palestine despite the fact that Iran does not share a border with Palestine and Palestinians supported Saddam during the Iran Iraq war.

Recently we have even seen Turkey and Pakistan being sanctioned with the FATF designation. 

Basically any authentically sovereign Muslim nation will be sanctioned by the west. You would think that under these circumstances those nations would closely cooperate together but nothing is further from the truth.

Right now there is an arms race under way in the region. Iran needs to be the first country to deploy hypersonic missiles in order to gain an edge. Perhaps Iran already. Possesses such technology however it's top secret?



Darius77 said:


> Beyond technology, in military strategic planning STRATEGIC MASS is the most critical element. Zionist Jews are about 7 million in Occupied Palestine. The _current population_ of the Islamic Republic of _Iran_ is 85,454,638 as of Friday, November 12, 2021, based on Worldometer elaboration. Iran's land mass is 1.64 million sq kms. The sheer weight of Iranian manpower, military, resources will wear out the Zionists in less than month and they know it. That is the reason they just bark. Conventional asymmetrical warfare chews up manpower and resources very fast and with less than 2 million eligible manpower the Zionists will simply fold in combat in a few weeks. Iran also has around 300,000 armed militias operating in the region. Top among them is Hezbollah with 100,000 active members as Sayyed Nasrallah last month acknowledged. Iran can mobilize over 40 million military age men.
> 
> Iran is also graduating around 283,000 engineers and hard science students annually, so the critical technological mass also favors Iran. If the sanctions are lifted Iranian economy will grow at double digits for a decade at least, pushing it in top 10 economies. There will also be a massive technology infusion.


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## R Wing

skyshadow said:


> Its not deterrence any more it's a arms race at this point as Israelis themselves say it's a race to close the technology gap with Iran, Israel is country with 8 million people Iran is 80 million that means more brain power to win the technology race in long run



Correct, and the US is hell-bent on making things as uneven as possible through brutal sanctions.

The deterrence needs to exists in the "gray zone" (below the threshold of open conflict) --- e.g. Israel is able to cause material damage to sensitive installations and engineer the killings of your capable minds working on defense technology, while Iran is not. This is where Iran needs to invest --- but smartly.

In my opinion, Iran needs to address the following:
1.) Sophisticated and widespread propaganda against the ayatollahs, the overall conservative public society, and the regime (probably the most important; many young people get easily brainwashed, and the sanctions make it easy for Iranians to blame the regime for lack of economic opportunities)

2.) Better defense against Mossad plots (both aimed at critical infrastructure through cyber and the actual killing of scientists)

3.) Better offense against Israel WITHIN Israel (very difficult, since it is a small security state with high levels of surveillance and blanket US protection)

4.) Of course, as this thread suggests, missiles and other weapon symptoms that can evade Israeli defenses --- and getting some of these to resistance movements in Palestine and Lebanon

Then, and only then, will the deterrence deficit be lessened. If Israel knows it will lose a scientist or high ranking person of its own, it will think twice before attacking one in Iran.

Just my 2 cents...

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## sha ah

Iran has retaliated against Israeli sabotage in many instances. However in the west they either outright deny or try to downplay such events. In some cases they can't hide certain occurences and that is when you hear about it.

If you recall the drone attacks on Israeli shipping. Also a few months ago there were several mysterious fires and explosions at various Israeli factories, installations,

In a recent interview General Hajizadeh of Iran hinted at such occurences merely stating that " we often hear about it" He also mentioned that recently a karge number of Israeli agents / spiess had been killed Iraq. Some call him the new Soleimani.









R Wing said:


> Correct, and the US is hell-bent on making things as uneven as possible through brutal sanctions.
> 
> The deterrence needs to exists in the "gray zone" (below the threshold of open conflict) --- e.g. Israel is able to cause material damage to sensitive installations and engineer the killings of your capable minds working on defense technology, while Iran is not. This is where Iran needs to invest --- but smartly.
> 
> In my opinion, Iran needs to address the following:
> 1.) Sophisticated and widespread propaganda against the ayatollahs, the overall conservative public society, and the regime (probably the most important; many young people get easily brainwashed, and the sanctions make it easy for Iranians to blame the regime for lack of economic opportunities)
> 
> 2.) Better defense against Mossad plots (both aimed at critical infrastructure through cyber and the actual killing of scientists)
> 
> 3.) Better offense against Israel WITHIN Israel (very difficult, since it is a small security state with high levels of surveillance and blanket US protection)
> 
> 4.) Of course, as this thread suggests, mis
> 
> 
> 
> Then, and only then, will the deterrence deficit be lessened. If Israel knows it will lose a scientist or high ranking person of its own, it will think twice before attacking one in Iran.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...

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## R Wing

sha ah said:


> Iran has retaliated against Israeli sabotage in many instances. However in the west they either outright deny or try to downplay such events. In some cases they can't hide certain occurences and that is when you hear about it.
> 
> If you recall the drone attacks on Israeli shipping. Also a few months ago there were several mysterious fires and explosions at various Israeli factories, installations,
> 
> In a recent interview General Hajizadeh of Iran hinted at such occurences merely stating that " we often hear about it" He also mentioned that recently a karge number of Israeli agents / spiess had been killed Iraq. Some call him the new Soleimani.



Thanks for your reply. 

1.) Attacking economic interests of corporations belonging to a country (as is the case with the attack on shipping vessels) in response to a country directly targeting your defense/military minds and installations is not exactly tit-for-tat --- but at least Iran did something.

2.) Yes, I did hear about the sabotage at some Israeli sites. 

3.) Deterrence will work when Israel is too afraid to assassinate a high ranking Iranian --- that is the litmus test. 

4.) I believe those killed in Iraq were assets, not actual Mossad officers --- though I could be wrong

The good news is that Iran is actively engaged with this threat. It must find the sophisticated disinformation and propaganda war that aims to weaponize its own citizens against its government. This requires brilliant minds to gently show your youth the truth, rather than coercion.

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## SalarHaqq

aryobarzan said:


> Very true statement regarding the economy....more than the weapons that Iran can field it is the *"Potential Economy of Iran* " that scares the zionists and the Southern Arabs of the Persian gulf.
> 
> I am always disappointed how little this weapon of "economy" gets attention by the Iranians in the PDF...China became No1 via her Economy not weapons...



Well, to put things into perspective, south Korea ranks 10th worldwide in terms of GDP, Japan's 3rd and Germany 4th. Yet, none of these are truly sovereign states, since Washington as well as assorted multinational lobbies and secret societies are the ones determining the strategic affairs of these countries.

Even when it comes to China, some questions tend to arise in this respect (take a close look at how the PRC appears to be implementing some of the key globalist agendas - unnecessary mass immigration with the Pearl River megalopolis serving as a test bed, immediately followed by artificial engineering of the racism vs antiracism debate in Chinese society, move towards legalization of homosexual marriage and child adoption, increasing encroachment of zionist elites through intermarriage with local ones, privileged position of Haifan Bahai missionaries who are recruiting among wealthy and influential Chinese businessmen etc)...

But supposing these questions are baseless and even if Chinese leaders are actually opposed to the sinister globalist / zionist / freemason agenda for mankind, there's not going to be many "second Chinas", given the marked specificities of that country and its historic trajectory. Iran in comparison lacks the industrious cultural leaning for starters. Owing among other things to its geographical location at the heart of the former Silk Road, Iranians developed business and merchant culture as opposed to a manufacturing-oriented one. Not to mention all the other differences which make it practically impossible for other countries to simply emulate the Chinese model.

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## yavar



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## Sineva

A very interesting question posed by pataramesh....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463220564198313984One that may also be of quite some interest to pakistan,as ultimately this new israeli radar is heading to india,very likely intended as part of its [as yet] still nascent abm system.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463938032311029778

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## Sineva

Khorramshar and tel viewed from above

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## sha ah

Realistically a modified Khorramshahr can reach London but Iran still insists that its range is 2000 KM.

Iran should unveil a missile that can reach Washington DC but simply state the range as 2000-3000 and produce a variant with a bigger warhead, payload 

At the least i would be willing to bet that Iran already possesses missiles that can reach London.



Sineva said:


> Khorramshar and tel viewed from above
> View attachment 797255

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## skyshadow

*this could be the surface to surface ( ground-to-ground ) test*

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## jauk

R Wing said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> 1.) Attacking economic interests of corporations belonging to a country (as is the case with the attack on shipping vessels) in response to a country directly targeting your defense/military minds and installations is not exactly tit-for-tat --- but at least Iran did something.
> 
> 2.) Yes, I did hear about the sabotage at some Israeli sites.
> 
> 3.) Deterrence will work when Israel is too afraid to assassinate a high ranking Iranian --- that is the litmus test.
> 
> 4.) I believe those killed in Iraq were assets, not actual Mossad officers --- though I could be wrong
> 
> The good news is that Iran is actively engaged with this threat. It must find the sophisticated disinformation and propaganda war that aims to weaponize its own citizens against its government. This requires brilliant minds to gently show your youth the truth, rather than coercion.



IRI doesn't do 'tit for tat'. Iran's responses are strategic, asymmetric, and not location based. Attack ships? Hello Gaza. Kill scientists? Hello IR9, 60% (...90% in the wings) and need to lift sanctions before you can even join us in the room....  and nice move out of Afghanistan (...and Iraq's in the wings). Throw a stone? Hello Houthis and disrupt oil and mock Patriots on a daily basis. Tit-for-tat is tactical and short sighted thinking. 

Iran has all options on, under, and over all the tables.

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## R Wing

jauk said:


> IRI doesn't do 'tit for tat'. Iran's responses are strategic, asymmetric, and not location based. Attack ships? Hello Gaza. Kill scientists? Hello IR9, 60% (...90% in the wings) and need to lift sanctions before you can even join us in the room....  and nice move out of Afghanistan (...and Iraq's in the wings). Throw a stone? Hello Houthis and disrupt oil and mock Patriots on a daily basis. Tit-for-tat is tactical and short sighted thinking.
> 
> Iran has all options on, under, and over all the tables.



I agree with you --- but partly. 

A robust response should include short & long-term/ tactical & strategic aspects. 

What is dissuading the Mossad today from killing some of the most special people in Iran (e.g. talented nuclear scientists, head of weaponization, etc.)? Without direct, tactical responses, a lot of the stuff you said is essentially not creating the required deterrence to keep your people safe. Am I wrong?


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## Dariush the Great

R Wing said:


> I agree with you --- but partly.
> 
> A robust response should include short & long-term/ tactical & strategic aspects.
> 
> What is dissuading the Mossad today from killing some of the most special people in Iran (e.g. talented nuclear scientists, head of weaponization, etc.)? Without direct, tactical responses, a lot of the stuff you said is essentially not creating the required deterrence to keep your people safe. Am I wrong?


I agree that our response against the entire Western gang has been pretty limited so far. But that has many underlying reasons, one of them is the more domestic outlook of the Iranian establishment due to COVID, economy, politics etc. Yes, even the Iranian ayatollahs have domestic plans thus it might come as a surprise to neutral spectators prone to Western propaganda.

Our government does not engage in a classic tit-for-tat but that was already known to people who have been following Iranian rules of play the past few decades. Now that the dust of the sabotage and killing attempts of the Western bloc against Iran has settled we can see that it had literally little effect on the progression of a nuclear threshold state. Their attempts have actually accelerated our nuclear program https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...machines-fordow-during-deal-talks-2021-12-01/

Biggest mistake Israel has done is to employ its old tactics it used against the Arabs vs Iran. I mean, the classic elimination of figure, personnel, sabotage attempts etc does not work against a united country like Iran. Not to mention, lobbying and unleashing a superpower (USA) with its maximum pressure. Such things will not work against Iran. Iran is literally like a huge solid tree standing, unmoved.

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## R Wing

Dariush the Great said:


> I agree that our response against the entire Western gang has been pretty limited so far. But that has many underlying reasons, one of them is the more domestic outlook of the Iranian establishment due to COVID, economy, politics etc. Yes, even the Iranian ayatollahs have domestic plans thus it might come as a surprise to neutral spectators prone to Western propaganda.
> 
> Our government does not engage in a classic tit-for-tat but that was already known to people who have been following Iranian rules of play the past few decades. Now that the dust of the sabotage and killing attempts of the Western bloc against Iran has settled we can see that it had literally little effect on the progression of a nuclear threshold state. Their attempts have actually accelerated our nuclear program https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...machines-fordow-during-deal-talks-2021-12-01/
> 
> Biggest mistake Israel has done is to employ its old tactics it used against the Arabs vs Iran. I mean, the classic elimination of figure, personnel, sabotage attempts etc does not work against a united country like Iran. Not to mention, lobbying and unleashing a superpower (USA) with its maximum pressure. Such things will not work against Iran. Iran is literally like a huge solid tree standing, unmoved.



Again, I totally agree. And let me clarify that I don't view these things through a Western lens --- my entire premise is that I want Iran (and, of course, Pakistan) to have more robust deterrence against tactical and strategic coercion by the West/Israel. Pakistan's nuclear program bothered Israel like the Iran of today does --- people have short memories, but the Mossad became obsessed with Pakistan in the 80s and the Director told the CIA that Pakistan was the biggest threat in the world (not even the region!) 

What I meant to say is that whatever Iran's strategy is (e.g. avoiding tit-for-tat) --- it needs to find one that also protects its prized assets. I agree that the Israeli-US moves haven't done much other than induced some delays --- but Iran has still lost some brilliant minds. All I meant to say was that there should be a direct way to avoid the Mossad/CIA killing whoever it wants.

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## drmeson

R Wing said:


> Again, I totally agree. And let me clarify that I don't view these things through a Western lens --- my entire premise is that I want Iran (and, of course, Pakistan) to have more robust deterrence against tactical and strategic coercion by the West/Israel. Pakistan's nuclear program bothered Israel like the Iran of today does --- people have short memories, but the Mossad became obsessed with Pakistan in the 80s and the Director told the CIA that Pakistan was the biggest threat in the world (not even the region!)
> 
> What I meant to say is that whatever Iran's strategy is (e.g. avoiding tit-for-tat) --- it needs to find one that also protects its prized assets. I agree that the Israeli-US moves haven't done much other than induced some delays --- but Iran has still lost some brilliant minds. All I meant to say was that there should be a direct way to avoid the Mossad/CIA killing whoever it wants.



yet Mossad did not kill your technicians or no one stopped the US from bombing your nuclear sites. Please tell me it was Pakistani Mig-19s and Mirage III that were scaring Israelis and Americans.

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## R Wing

drmeson said:


> yet Mossad did not kill your technicians or no one stopped the US from bombing your nuclear sites. Please tell me it was Pakistani Mig-19s and Mirage III that were scaring Israelis and Americans.



Israel planned to bomb Kahuta, our nuclear reactor, and undertook drills on a mock installation with India. It's a fascinating story and you can read more about it here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/wings-over-chagai.24124/

They also planned to kill AQ Khan, one of our prominent nuclear scientists, but he was put under house arrest by military authorities. He is accused of leaking nuclear tech, especially centrifuge design details, to Iran, N Korea and more.

There is no question that Pakistan had on-again off-again US support, that helped in such situations --- but Pakistan did not have hundreds of billions of dollars of oil ready to export, as Iran does. 

Interestingly, it was a Pakistani pilot who shot one of the first IAF planes down (he was in Syria training the Syrian pilots there on the latest A2A tactics). The IAF pilot ejected and was captured by Syrian forces, and the PAF pilot paid him a visit in a Syrian military hospital as the Israeli pilot was recovering from his injuries. I believe his name was Captain M. Lutz of the Israeli Air force. 

I think everyone here is misunderstanding what I'm saying. I WANT Iran to be able to hit Israel back more effectively, to create even better deterrence and to go nuclear ASAP. I also hope and pray that Pakistan-Iran relations continue to improve. I have a lot of respect for Iran to standing up to joint US-Israeli plans.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

drmeson said:


> yet Mossad did not kill your technicians or no one stopped the US from bombing your nuclear sites. Please tell me it was Pakistani Mig-19s and Mirage III that were scaring Israelis and Americans.


Israel tried but they failed.Remember operation Kahuta.US was our cold war ally.We assured them that our nuclear weapons are solely India based.So they only sanctioned us and did nothing to destroy our nuclear power plants.In fact Western black markete helped us a alot to achieve success in our nuclear ambitions.so west only sanctioned us. US herself allowed us to carry out nuclear research for civilian energy projects in 50s. 


By the way,US F16 were proved very useful for protecting our nuclear stations.


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## drmeson

R Wing said:


> Israel planned to bomb Kahuta, our nuclear reactor, and undertook drills on a mock installation with India. It's a fascinating story and you can read more about it here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/wings-over-chagai.24124/
> 
> They also planned to kill AQ Khan, one of our prominent nuclear scientists, but he was put under house arrest by military authorities. He is accused of leaking nuclear tech, especially centrifuge design details, to Iran, N Korea and more.
> 
> There is no question that Pakistan had on-again off-again US support, that helped in such situations --- but Pakistan did not have hundreds of billions of dollars of oil ready to export, as Iran does.
> 
> Interestingly, it was a Pakistani pilot who shot one of the first IAF planes down (he was in Syria training the Syrian pilots there on the latest A2A tactics). The IAF pilot ejected and was captured by Syrian forces, and the PAF pilot paid him a visit in a Syrian military hospital as the Israeli pilot was recovering from his injuries. I believe his name was Captain M. Lutz of the Israeli Air force.
> 
> I think everyone here is misunderstanding what I'm saying. I WANT Iran to be able to hit Israel back more effectively, to create even better deterrence and to go nuclear ASAP. I also hope and pray that Pakistan-Iran relations continue to improve. I have a lot of respect for Iran to standing up to joint US-Israeli plans.



LOL Israelis planned to bomb your plant but "did not" ... they wanted to kill your scientist ... but "did not" ... Saddams 400 planes strong top notch USSR built Airforce did not scare them, Iran's oil wealth, proxies, Cruise+Ballastic missile packages (tried and tested) does not scare them, Turkish military does not scare them but they got scared of Mighty Pakistans IMF owned economy or the Chinese donated Migs? are you out of yoru mind doostam? I have nothing against Pakistan but trust me you have nukes because leaders of the world found it favourable for their own strategies otherwise they would have done to your nuclear plants what they have done to iraqs, syrias and libyas. South Asian culture warrants constantly mocking others while forgetting about their own history. Do you want me to tell you which nations helped Pakistan in nuclear development ... trust me it will start with Europe. No one helped any middle eastern country.


Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Israel tried but they failed.Remember operation Kahuta.US was our cold war ally.We assured them that our nuclear weapons are solely India based.So they only sanctioned us and did nothing to destroy our nuclear power plants.In fact Western black markete helped us a alot to achieve success in our nuclear ambitions.so west only sanctioned us. US herself allowed us to carry out nuclear research for civilian energy projects in 50s.
> 
> 
> By the way,US F16 were proved very useful for protecting our nuclear stations.



So US protection was there. Exactly what i said before. if it was not ... your nuclear plant would have been sent to Indus valley times. Trust me no Islamic nation is allowed. Not us, not Turkey not iraq or Saudi ... You are just lucky that US+EU had their strategy in your favor at that time.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

drmeson said:


> LOL Israelis planned to bomb your plant but "did not" ... they wanted to kill your scientist ... but "did not" ... Saddams 400 planes strong top notch USSR built Airforce did not scare them, Iran's oil wealth, proxies, Cruise+Ballastic missile packages (tried and tested) does not scare them, Turkish military does not scare them but they got scared of Mighty Pakistans IMF owned economy or the Chinese donated Migs? are you out of yoru mind doostam? I have nothing against Pakistan but trust me you have nukes because leaders of the world found it favourable for their own strategies otherwise they would have done to your nuclear plants what they have done to iraqs, syrias and libyas. South Asian culture warrants constantly mocking others while forgetting about their own history. Do you want me to tell you which nations helped Pakistan in nuclear development ... trust me it will start with Europe. No one helped any middle eastern country.


Cool down buddy.Pakistan had F 16 before becoming declared nuclear power.Imagine if Israel had bombed our nuclear sites,what would've stopped us to strike Israel and India with nuclear bombs ( we were nuclear power in 80s).
We had already acquired 1500km Ballistic Missiles ( we got missiles design from N.Korea).

Regarding syria and iraq,well,we had strong diplomatic chennels in the whole world so unlike Iraq,Syria we had some diplomatic support from our allys.
If Iraq had handled world powers with diplomacy and had kept its n.programme secret,they would have been a nuclear power today.


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## Dariush the Great

R Wing said:


> Israel planned to bomb Kahuta, our nuclear reactor, and undertook drills on a mock installation with India. It's a fascinating story and you can read more about it here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/wings-over-chagai.24124/
> 
> They also planned to kill AQ Khan, one of our prominent nuclear scientists, but he was put under house arrest by military authorities. He is accused of leaking nuclear tech, especially centrifuge design details, to Iran, N Korea and more.
> 
> There is no question that Pakistan had on-again off-again US support, that helped in such situations --- but Pakistan did not have hundreds of billions of dollars of oil ready to export, as Iran does.
> 
> Interestingly, it was a Pakistani pilot who shot one of the first IAF planes down (he was in Syria training the Syrian pilots there on the latest A2A tactics). The IAF pilot ejected and was captured by Syrian forces, and the PAF pilot paid him a visit in a Syrian military hospital as the Israeli pilot was recovering from his injuries. I believe his name was Captain M. Lutz of the Israeli Air force.
> 
> I think everyone here is misunderstanding what I'm saying. I WANT Iran to be able to hit Israel back more effectively, to create even better deterrence and to go nuclear ASAP. I also hope and pray that Pakistan-Iran relations continue to improve. I have a lot of respect for Iran to standing up to joint US-Israeli plans.


With all respect my friend, the level of hostilities between Iran and Israel are beyond anything what Pakistan has experienced with Israel.

As far i know (correct me if i am wrong) Pakistan has not been under several rounds of UN sanctions, no aviation sanctions, no arms embargo, no disconnection from international banks, no problems with international trading, no severe media vilification etc. Even the oil that Iran is now selling is much under normal market values and has to go through hundreds of loops before finally being sold (receiving the actual money takes even longer).

The reason why the West and Israel has been so soft to Pakistan despite its nuclear weapons status is because Pakistan has never been an existential threat to the state of Israel.


The state of Israel has several threat categories.

A) Existential threat : Iran
B) Semi-existential threat : Syria, Hezbollah and other non-state actors (tied with the axis of resistance)
C) other threats : nations having the potential to become level B or even A threat.


All in all, it is unfair to bring Pakistan into this discussion because it does not do justice to level of harassment that Iran has been receiving from the United States and the state of Israel.

And i agree with you, Iran needs a more effective deterrence but like i earlier stated, that level of deterrence needs more sophisticated capabilities which Iran is lacking, currently.

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## TheTallGuy

breaking story: massive blast at near Natanz

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## Dariush the Great

TheTallGuy said:


> breaking story: massive blast at Natanz











Iran’s air defense units fire missiles to test rapid reaction force over central Natanz city


Iran’s air defense units fire missiles to test rapid reaction force over central city of Natanz.




www.presstv.ir

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## TheTallGuy

Dariush the Great said:


> Iran’s air defense units fire missiles to test rapid reaction force over central Natanz city
> 
> 
> Iran’s air defense units fire missiles to test rapid reaction force over central city of Natanz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.presstv.ir



So something came and they engaged..it can not be a test so close to the facility

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## QWECXZ

TheTallGuy said:


> So something came and they engaged..it can not be a test so close to the facility


Apparently it was to test the rapid reaction of the AD systems near Natanz. 
It was 20 kilometers away from the facility itself.

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## TheTallGuy

QWECXZ said:


> Apparently it was to test the rapid reaction of the AD systems near Natanz.
> It was 20 kilometers away from the facility itself.



Are you that naive? test are done at ranges where telematry equipment is place and they are "Testing" ground.

The explanation is crap! 

i think they have fired SAM at something...

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## QWECXZ

TheTallGuy said:


> Are you that naive? test are done at ranges where telematry equipment is place and they are "Testing" ground.
> 
> The explanation is crap!
> 
> i think they have fired SAM at something...


They were testing the preparedness of the AD for a surprise attack. And you talk about telemetry equipment and testing ground. lol
They did fire a surface to air missile at the target. How does that make it not a test?


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## TheTallGuy

QWECXZ said:


> They were testing the preparedness of the AD for a surprise attack. And you talk about telemetry equipment and testing ground. lol



why do you come clean and say you guys have shot down something plain and simple..why the fasad!

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## QWECXZ

TheTallGuy said:


> why do you come clean and say you guys have shot down something plain and simple..why the fasad!


You are retarded. Aren't you?
You are talking to me as if I am the spokesman of Iran's air defense.

I just told you what is officially reported. And it could be very well true because satellite imagery will reveal the truth anyway.

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## R Wing

Dariush the Great said:


> With all respect my friend, the level of hostilities between Iran and Israel are beyond anything what Pakistan has experienced with Israel.
> 
> As far i know (correct me if i am wrong) Pakistan has not been under several rounds of UN sanctions, no aviation sanctions, no arms embargo, no disconnection from international banks, no problems with international trading, no severe media vilification etc. Even the oil that Iran is now selling is much under normal market values and has to go through hundreds of loops before finally being sold (receiving the actual money takes even longer).
> 
> The reason why the West and Israel has been so soft to Pakistan despite its nuclear weapons status is because Pakistan has never been an existential threat to the state of Israel.
> 
> 
> The state of Israel has several threat categories.
> 
> A) Existential threat : Iran
> B) Semi-existential threat : Syria, Hezbollah and other non-state actors (tied with the axis of resistance)
> C) other threats : nations having the potential to become level B or even A threat.
> 
> 
> All in all, it is unfair to bring Pakistan into this discussion because it does not do justice to level of harassment that Iran has been receiving from the United States and the state of Israel.
> 
> And i agree with you, Iran needs a more effective deterrence but like i earlier stated, that level of deterrence needs more sophisticated capabilities which Iran is lacking, currently.



If you read my earlier posts, the level of hostility I was talking about was many decades ago. Don't forget that Iran and Israel were pretty close pre Revolution. Anyway, I agree, let's not derail the thread!


drmeson said:


> LOL Israelis planned to bomb your plant but "did not" ... they wanted to kill your scientist ... but "did not" ... Saddams 400 planes strong top notch USSR built Airforce did not scare them, Iran's oil wealth, proxies, Cruise+Ballastic missile packages (tried and tested) does not scare them, Turkish military does not scare them but they got scared of Mighty Pakistans IMF owned economy or the Chinese donated Migs? are you out of yoru mind doostam? I have nothing against Pakistan but trust me you have nukes because leaders of the world found it favourable for their own strategies otherwise they would have done to your nuclear plants what they have done to iraqs, syrias and libyas. South Asian culture warrants constantly mocking others while forgetting about their own history. Do you want me to tell you which nations helped Pakistan in nuclear development ... trust me it will start with Europe. No one helped any middle eastern country.
> 
> 
> So US protection was there. Exactly what i said before. if it was not ... your nuclear plant would have been sent to Indus valley times. Trust me no Islamic nation is allowed. Not us, not Turkey not iraq or Saudi ... You are just lucky that US+EU had their strategy in your favor at that time.



If you read my post, I already mentioned that the US factor helped and was likely the crucial factor. Where did I say that it was because of some retaliation capability (even though, FYI, a lot of our tech and tactics back then were better than whatever Iraq was fielding --- it's not just about numbers, you genius).

Secondly, I'd like to see where Iran's economy would be without God-given oil under your soil given the sanctions (that we also had to face for some time --- till the US decided to use us again through sold-out leaders!). 

Also, your tone is disrespectful and ridiculous. Are you a child or just a frustrated adult? 

If you read the rest of my posts on this thread, I am actually wanting/hoping/praying for Iran to do even better --- but, obviously, you're a blind bigot.


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## sha ah

If Iran didn't have its oil, natural gas, etc, then Iran would likely have a completely different foreign policy.



R Wing said:


> If you read my earlier posts, the level of hostility I was talking about was many decades ago. Don't forget that Iran and Israel were pretty close pre Revolution. Anyway, I agree, let's not derail the thread!
> 
> If you read my post, I already mentioned that the US factor helped and was likely the crucial factor. Where did I say that it was because of some retaliation capability (even though, FYI, a lot of our tech and tactics back then were better than whatever Iraq was fielding --- it's not just about numbers, you genius).
> 
> Secondly, I'd like to see where Iran's economy would be without God-given oil under your soil given the sanctions (that we also had to face for some time --- till the US decided to use us again through sold-out leaders!).
> 
> Also, your tone is disrespectful and ridiculous. Are you a child or just a frustrated adult?
> 
> If you read the rest of my posts on this thread, I am actually wanting/hoping/praying for Iran to do even better --- but, obviously, you're a blind bigot.


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## Dariush the Great

R Wing said:


> If you read my earlier posts, the level of hostility I was talking about was many decades ago. Don't forget that Iran and Israel were pretty close pre Revolution. Anyway, I agree, let's not derail the thread!



I think this point in our discussion can be solved very quickly. We can just compare the amount of sanctions and the intensity that Pakistan faced with the ones that Iran is having now for 4+ decades. Or the level/intensity of US-Israel sabotage operations.

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## R Wing

Dariush the Great said:


> I think this point in our discussion can be solved very quickly. We can just compare the amount of sanctions and the intensity that Pakistan faced with the ones that Iran is having now for 4+ decades. Or the level/intensity of US-Israel sabotage operations.



No comparison. Iran is under _considerably more _pressure. Thank God for that oil 


sha ah said:


> If Iran didn't have its oil, natural gas, etc, then Iran would likely have a completely different foreign policy.



Definitely. 

I hope Muslim countries can wake the F up and start collaborating more. Till the Gulf monarchies and Zionist entities are around, it'll be difficult. 

If Turkey, Iran and Pakistan can put aside past differences and collaborate better, with China and Russia in support, the Middle East can change for the better.
Back on topic...

Have Iranians who have gone to top institutions globally (for example, MIT) come back to contribute to significant defense tech programs? Or are local universities taking care of everything? 

I know Iran has a great physics/math tradition.

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## 925boy

QWECXZ said:


> Apparently it was to test the rapid reaction of the AD systems near Natanz.
> It was 20 kilometers away from the facility itself.


hmm....is Iran rehearsing for "the scenario"???? hmm...the stakes are high atm if you dont realize it.

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## Dariush the Great

R Wing said:


> No comparison. Iran is under _considerably more _pressure. Thank God for that oil


Not sure if you are here for an honest discussion. 

Like pointed out to you before, there is not much use to having oil when you are struggling to sell it.

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## sha ah

Iran's economy just surpassed Saudi Arabia and Turkey to become the 17th largest on earth.

Despite sanctions Iran's economy is growing. Inflation is high but it's high everywhere in the world at the moment.

Iran is selling 1 million barrels a day or more just to China. Iran gives China $2-$5 off per barrel, so not even 10% off.

Aside from China there's currently Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon and many others which Iran sells oil to under the table. Iranian crude even makes it to the eastern sections of Yemen near the Omani border.

Venezuela has the largest reserves of crude oil in the world but they mostly have heavy crude which is more difficult to refine compared to Iranian "sweet crude" for example. 

Because of this and the current US led sanctions currently imposed on Venezuela, Iran supplies Venezuela gasoline in exchange for their heavy crude, which Iran then ships to China

Iran's GDP is expected to grow at a steady rate of 2.5% over the next few years according to the World Bank and IMF.



Dariush the Great said:


> Not sure if you are here for an honest discussion.
> 
> Like pointed out to you before, there is not much use to having oil when you are struggling to sell it.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

R Wing said:


> If Turkey, Iran and Pakistan can put aside past differences and collaborate better, with China and Russia in support, the Middle East can change for the better.


Pak Turkey collaboration is already skyhigh.what type of collaboration you desire for? our collaborations with Turks in Military tech will only decrease from now not increase as Turks will eventually pass the stage where they needed to share their technology of warships with us as China collaborated with us in 90s.From now,they will only sell us like China.so i think we should forget Turks now and focus on homegrown technologies.We have already achieved too much from Chinese and Turks that if from today we start serious work in defense sector we will be able to compete these two in international markete. ( Only if we start taking this field seriously).

As for Iran,We always adopted neutral foreign policy in their case.Iran can only give us oil but world powers pressure will blow up our tiny economy if we started making contact with Iran for oil.
So for foreseeable future,i think Pakistan is not going to buy Oil from Iran.

We should just pray that US remove sanctions from iranian oil so that we can buy oil from them immediately in case of war. 
In military tech,i do not see any scope for collaboration.



Feel free to disagree


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## R Wing

Dariush the Great said:


> Not sure if you are here for an honest discussion.
> 
> Like pointed out to you before, there is not much use to having oil when you are struggling to sell it.



I am. Please see my previous posts before some immature members in this thread insisted on getting into petty comparisons. 

Even if you have trouble exporting it, you are at least energy self-sufficient. Pakistan has to import so much energy that sanctions would collapse the state. 

I hope and pray for a way out of the sanctions soon, while also maintaining a deterrence. Not an easy balance. 

I also think the weaponization of hate against the ayatollahs by information warfare is going to be a serious challenge for Iran as the lure of the West and liberal values starts to entice young urbanites. 

I wish Iran the best and I am really glad that they invested so heavily and so early in sophisticated missile and AD programs!


Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Pak Turkey collaboration is already skyhigh.what type of collaboration you desire for? our collaborations with Turks in Military tech will only decrease from now not increase as Turks will eventually pass the stage where they needed to share their technology of warships with us as China collaborated with us in 90s.From now,they will only sell us like China.so i think we should forget Turks now and focus on homegrown technologies.We have already achieved too much from Chinese and Turks that if from today we start serious work in defense sector we will be able to compete these two in international markete. ( Only if we start taking this field seriously).
> 
> As for Iran,We always adopted neutral foreign policy in their case.Iran can only give us oil but world powers pressure will blow up our tiny economy if we started making contact with Iran for oil.
> So for foreseeable future,i think Pakistan is not going to buy Oil from Iran.
> 
> We should just pray that US remove sanctions from iranian oil so that we can buy oil from them immediately in case of war.
> In military tech,i do not see any scope for collaboration.
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to disagree



I didn't mean military tech. I should have clarified. I meant an overall China-Russia-Pakistan-Iran-Turkey bloc. Of course it's not immediately possible, but nor was European cohesion during the World Wars --- and now we have the EU, which --- despite its ups and downs --- is currently holding in place. Germany, once an enemy of the US/Allies, is today a major NATO member. We need to work to create a better political reality, or accept subservience to US interests forever.

In terms of tech, I totally agree with you.

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## QWECXZ

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467465405933498370
@TheTallGuy @Dariush the Great​

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## drmeson

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Cool down buddy.Pakistan had F 16 before becoming declared nuclear power.Imagine if Israel had bombed our nuclear sites,what would've stopped us to strike Israel and India with nuclear bombs ( we were nuclear power in 80s).
> We had already acquired 1500km Ballistic Missiles ( we got missiles design from N.Korea).
> 
> Regarding syria and iraq,well,we had strong diplomatic chennels in the whole world so unlike Iraq,Syria we had some diplomatic support from our allys.
> If Iraq had handled world powers with diplomacy and had kept its n.programme secret,they would have been a nuclear power today.



Your US donated 20-30 x F-16 block 15 (BVR less) would had to be flown over Iran, Iraq, Jordan to reach Israel. Are you crazy or just making stuff up now? and please stop lying Iran and Pakistan both got Hwasongs from North Korea which you painted as Ghori-1 (Ghoris were Tajiks and your invaders, lol but ok) and we started our Shahab BM Program. Thats 90s, trust me these Hwasongs do no scare a military menace like US or even Israel. They would have sent F-15, F-111 and your whole interceptor force would have been jammed (F-7, few BVR less F-16, Mig-19). You as a nuclear armed country was invaded by US marines in 2010s for OBL operation so spare me the "we would have struck US with north Korean elongated Scuds"

Your strong diplomatic channels mean nothing in front of Arab cash, Saddams Iraq could have literally bought you repeatedly, he had that much cash and support from USSR and EU both. He had like 400+ fighter jets from France, Russia and Rumsfield was sitting with him when arabs decided to invade Iran (and Iran invaded the entire Arab League in return, took some years though). You think you were fooling someone sitting on sofas of diplomatic meetings but reality is ... and repeat with me ... Whatever happens in this world happens with the agreement of world leaders ... Your economy and political structure is weakest among muslim nations yet you were allowed what everyone else was denied in OIC and can you guess why ? I will tell you, please ask. Your universities are much much below Iranians and Turkish and even Arab Universities in QS or Asian Ranking, you are no where near our H rankings in STEM publications, no industrial or natural resources back up either. Can you guess why are you spared while none of us are? South Asian habit of self boosting is amusing esp if coming from a muslim brother nation but should be in limits.


.................................

Guys what is the current operational equipment in the MRBM/IRBM:

Sejjil-2
Khooram Shahr
Emad MaRV

and Land attack CM Soumar with 2500 km ?

am I correct ?

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

drmeson said:


> Your US donated 20-30 x F-16 block 15 (BVR less) would had to be flown over Iran, Iraq, Jordan to reach Israel


And none of these countries was able to stop our F16 s to reach Israel if something wrong had happened to our nuclear power plants.




drmeson said:


> please stop lying Iran and Pakistan both got Hwasongs from North Korea which you painted as Ghori


But we gave them designs for building centrifuges so it was fair deal.


drmeson said:


> Ghoris were Tajiks and your invaders, lol


Its because people think they brought Islam in this region.i am not saying its right but just giving you reason of this.


drmeson said:


> trust me these Hwasongs do no scare a military menace like US or even Israel.


Well in that era,there defence systems were not advanced either.So a tiny country like Israel would have wiped off if even one n.warhead had fell their.


drmeson said:


> invaded by US


That was a covert mission not a direct invasion.


drmeson said:


> we would have struck US with north Korean elongated Scuds


All we were needed to do was just get a capability to hit Israel, Israel itself would have stopped USA.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

drmeson said:


> I will tell you, please ask. Your universities are much much below Iranians and Turkish and even Arab Universities in QS or Asian Ranking, you are no where near our H rankings in STEM publications, no industrial or natural resources back up either. Can you guess why are you spared while none of us are?


Our universities are capable enough to produce engineers for designing our Missiles,AirCrafts etc. We have got some good universities for aerospace,nuclear science,etc.

We were performing better in economic terms during sanctions.


drmeson said:


> Your economy and political structure is weakest among muslim nations yet you were allowed what everyone else was denied in OIC


There was strong political will for n. Program. No one could have stopped us even US from getting N. weapons because they were guarantee of our survival in region. 


We shared N. Secrets with N.Korea ( worst enemy of US) but still they didn't attack us.Why? Because we handled it nicely.That was known to US years later so they could not do shit about it.



When people were asking us "are you working on n.weapons" we said them"no dear,who told you.there is nothing going on about these shitty N.Weapons."

So our diplomacy played decisive role in our n.programs.Problemwith other countries were that they were incapable of keeping the secrets, secrets.And when their secrets were out,they could not defend themselves diplomatically.


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## sha ah

I'm sorry but there's no way your f-16s would have been able to reach Israel and successfully carry out their missions. That's a fantasy. Missiles are more likely.

When it comes to Pakistan the Americans don't care because they can get what they want anyways. They can fly drones over Pakistan anytime to hit priority targets. They also took out Osama without even being detected.

The Americans have stated in the past that in case Pakistan were to become destabilized, they already have a contingency plan to take over the entire nuclear weapons stockpile.

When the British partitioned the Indian subcontinent, they gave all the economic hubs to India. As a result Pakistan will always be what it is today. That's all there is to it.



Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> And none of these countries was able to stop our F16 s to reach Israel if something wrong had happened to our nuclear power plants.
> 
> 
> 
> But we gave them designs for building centrifuges so it was fair deal.
> 
> Its because people think they brought Islam in this region.i am not saying its right but just giving you reason of this.
> 
> Well in that era,there defence systems were not advanced either.So a tiny country like Israel would have wiped off if even one n.warhead had fell their.
> 
> That was a covert mission not a direct invasion.
> 
> All we were needed to do was just get a capability to hit Israel, Israel itself would have stopped USA.


----------



## drmeson

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> And none of these countries was able to stop our F16 s to reach Israel if something wrong had happened to our nuclear power plants.



Please explain to me how would a BVR less F-16 counter an IRIAF F-14A armed with Aim-54. These bad cats scored 159 aerial victories in the war for us while losing 3 of our own. Are you telling me that an F-16 with additional fuel tanks and A2G bombs loaded on it, would have somehow gone through the nest of IRIAF who at that time was operating 79 F-14A armed with Aim-54, 200+ F-4 Phantoms and same no of F-5E .... Jingoism is nice but stay rational please. Iranians and Israelis were war-hardened, toughest US-trained pilots in the region at that time, your BVR less block 15 jets would have been shot over Baluchistan if they would have tried to invade Iranian skies or even if Iran allowed its skies to be used by Pakistanis then planes would have crashed over iraq because of Iraqi interception and fuel shortage. 



Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> But we gave them designs for building centrifuges so it was fair deal.



So stop making tall claims of missile strikes or whatever against US and Israel while all you have/had was North Korean liquid-fueled Scuds. Israel would have fired a barrage of Jericho IIs at you, you still can not defend against them.



Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Its because people think they brought Islam in this region.i am not saying its right but just giving you reason of this.



Most of your kind, especially on this forum hates Turko-Iranics for invading the land that is now your country. I wonder why would someone name their missiles on their invaders.




Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Well in that era,there defence systems were not advanced either.So a tiny country like Israel would have wiped off if even one n.warhead had fell their.



Your knowledge of warfare is a joke buddy. IAF was armed with both F-16s and F-15s for interceptions and had MIM-104 and MIM-23 for air defence, later in 1999 they inducted Arrow too. Israel was the first country in the region to use an integrated layered AD network. 



Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> That was a covert mission not a direct invasion.
> 
> All we were needed to do was just get a capability to hit Israel, Israel itself would have stopped USA.



Facepalm

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## 925boy

sha ah said:


> I'm sorry but there's no way your f-16s would have been able to reach Israel and successfully carry out their missions.


wait, are you guys actually considering what this troll is saying realistically? LOOK! This is the same Pakistan that chose to starve of energy (gas, IPI, IP pipeline) and allow its over 200m citizens SUFFER, because US and Gulf Arabs SAID SO, so no, Pakistan wont attack ISrael simply on US instructions...attack ISrael? LMAO. Pakistan didnt even send Gaza 1 rocket during any conflict. Pakistan is more of expert at fighting extremist groups it sometimes used to support.


> That's a fantasy. Missiles are more likely.


When last did Pakistan fire a missile in real conflict??? C"MON BRO! Pakistani stockpiles are to assure the Pakistani state's insecurities.



> When it comes to Pakistan the Americans don't care because they can get what they want anyways.


boom, US always does.


> They can fly drones over Pakistan anytime to hit priority targets.


They did. NOw their 30K soldiers are still in Pakistan and Pakistani govt doesn't know where they are or cant kick them.


> They also took out Osama without even being detected.


And Pakistan went to go jail the brave Doctor who outed TERRORIST BIN LADEN.



> The Americans have stated in the past that in case Pakistan were to become destabilized, they already have a contingency plan to take over the entire nuclear weapons stockpile.


They've already wrapped all the nukes up for US, for when US is ready to come "carry them "

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

@drmeson

@sha ah 

A leaf from history: Defending Kahuta 



https://www.dawn.com/news/1195904/a-leaf-from-history-defending-kahuta 



You people think that India and Israel did not try to neutralize our Nuclear plants.

Read this article,it clearly says Israel was going to use indian bases to attack kahuta. 



Here is another book on Amazon about this operation:

Kahuta: The Indo-Israeli Plan to Attack Pakistan’s Nuclear Plant



"Israel had attempted to destroy the Kahuta plant as it had successfully destroyed the Iraqi nuclear plant in Osirak. It needed Indian help in undertaking this mission. There were strong ties between the Israeli Mossad and Indian RAW intelligence agencies. An Indo-Israeli joint plan was initiated. Both countries had felt that it was in their interest to undergo a preventive strike on Pakistani nuclear facility in Kahuta."





There is another article from BBC 



Kargil War: Did Israel and India want to destroy Pakistan's nuclear program? 



In this article you can read this:

The Tel Aviv-based Jerusalem Post reported in February 1987 that the Israeli military had spoken to India several times about a joint attack on the Kahuta nuclear plant 



now its up to you,make whatever fantacy you want,we do not care about your opinions



Fact is that we have what we wanted.end of game.


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## Dariush the Great

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> @drmeson
> 
> @sha ah
> 
> A leaf from history: Defending Kahuta
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1195904/a-leaf-from-history-defending-kahuta
> 
> 
> 
> You people think that India and Israel did not try to neutralize our Nuclear plants.
> 
> Read this article,it clearly says Israel was going to use indian bases to attack kahuta.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is another book on Amazon about this operation:
> 
> Kahuta: The Indo-Israeli Plan to Attack Pakistan’s Nuclear Plant
> 
> 
> 
> "Israel had attempted to destroy the Kahuta plant as it had successfully destroyed the Iraqi nuclear plant in Osirak. It needed Indian help in undertaking this mission. There were strong ties between the Israeli Mossad and Indian RAW intelligence agencies. An Indo-Israeli joint plan was initiated. Both countries had felt that it was in their interest to undergo a preventive strike on Pakistani nuclear facility in Kahuta."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is another article from BBC
> 
> 
> 
> Kargil War: Did Israel and India want to destroy Pakistan's nuclear program?
> 
> 
> 
> In this article you can read this:
> 
> The Tel Aviv-based Jerusalem Post reported in February 1987 that the Israeli military had spoken to India several times about a joint attack on the Kahuta nuclear plant
> 
> 
> 
> now its up to you,make whatever fantacy you want,we do not care about your opinions
> 
> 
> 
> Fact is that we have what we wanted.end of game.


Why are you derailing the thread?

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469311643431718927

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469317108966252551^ also check out the Telegram channel @iran_militarynews for footage of the BM-250, BM-270SI, BM-270ST, BM-300, BM-440 and BM-700 missiles.

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## jauk

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469311643431718927
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469317108966252551^ also check out the Telegram channel @iran_militarynews for footage of the BM-250, BM-270SI, BM-270ST, BM-300, BM-440 and BM-700 missiles.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469308000297009153

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469362655051890699

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469367356807864331

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469369582427197453

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469372045477748753

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## Stryker1982

Never seen a frag warhead before.


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## Abid123

How much do they cost? Like price for a a single ballistic missile?

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## Stryker1982

Abid123 said:


> How much do they cost? Like price for a a single ballistic missile?


These types of things are usually never disclosed to the public.


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## Dariush the Great

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469362655051890699
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469367356807864331
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469369582427197453
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469372045477748753


Do these belong to the army or the IRGC?


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## QWECXZ

Abid123 said:


> How much do they cost? Like price for a a single ballistic missile?


That's what I'm wondering too. If they are for export, they must have a price tag.


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## sha ah

The Syrians need a atleast 100 of these short range missiles to deter Israeli aggression on their sovereign territory.



Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469362655051890699
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469367356807864331
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469369582427197453
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469372045477748753

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Never seen a frag warhead before.



Think they referring to airburst warhead. 

Unless it's something like this.

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## Muhammed45

Abid123 said:


> How much do they cost? Like price for a a single ballistic missile?


I think it would be almost 100-120 million dollars for almost 150 units without including TELs and other equipment required for missile units. If we supposed that Iranian missiles costs 1/5th that of Iskander-E. 

Syria, NK, Venezuela, Iraq, Lebanon, Algeria could be Customers of this deadly missiles specially the anti ship versions.


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## QWECXZ

Muhammed45 said:


> I think it would be almost 100-120 million dollars for almost 150 units without including TELs and other equipment required for missile units. If we supposed that Iranian missiles costs 1/5th that of Iskander-E.
> 
> Syria, NK, Venezuela, Iraq, Lebanon, Algeria could be Customers of this deadly missiles specially the anti ship versions.


😳 How long do you think it will take for Iran to produce 150 units of these?
Do you think we have produced enough missiles to export such large numbers to other countries for such a low price?

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> 😳 How long do you think it will take for Iran to produce 150 units of these?
> Do you think we have produced enough missiles to export such large numbers to other countries for such a low price?



I think there is clearly enough evidence to support the supposition that Iran's missile manufacturing apparatus is mature enough to accommodate larger orders on offensive weapons systems like the ones just shown. Infrastructure wise, we've known for quite some time that their missile production capacity was very, very high. Countless videos, unveilings, domestic weapons exhibitions and the like pointed us toward that conclusion. 

More or less, it's just a matter of time before these systems are seen popping up in other countries offering them a massive boost in tactical-level offensive capabilities. 

P.S.: Several years ago I had a hunch Iran was working on taking their FATEH design (making them smaller and bigger) and equipping them with specialized warheads/tips for different use cases. I'm glad to see that Iran went through with this.

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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Think they referring to airburst warhead.
> 
> Unless it's something like this.



Airburst indeed.

I've seen them from the US, and China and probably some other countries, but first time I've seen the airburst from Iran.


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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Airburst indeed.
> 
> I've seen them from the US, and China and probably some other countries, but first time I've seen the airburst from Iran.



Could be mistranslation and its actually cluster munitions. I remember Iran revealing something like that.


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## Muhammed45

QWECXZ said:


> 😳 How long do you think it will take for Iran to produce 150 units of these?
> Do you think we have produced enough missiles to export such large numbers to other countries for such a low price?


Yes bro why not?

If a country places a good piece of order and pays a part of the money as per the contract before the production kicks off then why not?

About the price tag, i think that if we add other things attacched to the missile brigades, it would cost the customer almost 300 to 350 million dollar per 150 missiles including the launchers based on the version and range of those missiles. And if we suppose each launcher carried 4 of them then they would need almost 10 to 20 launchers keeping the rest of the missiles as stocks.

It might be more, my conjecture was made based on price tag of Iskander-E purchased by Armenians. Russians might have suggested them with a good discount, that's an other possibility.









The “Iskanders” cost the Armenian budget 70-100 million USD: Union of Informed Citizens


During the military parade dedicated to the 25th anniversary of independence of Armenia, the “Iskander” tactical missile systems were displayed among other military equipment. “Union of Informed Citizens” NGO has tried to gather information about those systems and their purchase. Read also...




www.aravot-en.am

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## QWECXZ

Muhammed45 said:


> Yes bro why not?
> 
> If a country places a good piece of order and pays a part of the money as per the contract before the production kicks off then why not?
> 
> About the price tag, i think that if we add other things attacched to the missile brigades, it would cost the customer almost 300 to 350 million dollar per 150 missiles including the launchers based on the version and range of those missiles. And if we suppose each launcher carried 4 of them then they would need almost 10 to 20 launchers keeping the rest of the missiles as stocks.
> 
> It might be more, my conjecture was made based on price tag of Iskander-E purchased by Armenians. Russians might have suggested them with a good discount, that's an other possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The “Iskanders” cost the Armenian budget 70-100 million USD: Union of Informed Citizens
> 
> 
> During the military parade dedicated to the 25th anniversary of independence of Armenia, the “Iskander” tactical missile systems were displayed among other military equipment. “Union of Informed Citizens” NGO has tried to gather information about those systems and their purchase. Read also...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aravot-en.am


Russians do not rely on short/medium range missiles for their military doctrine because they have a formidable air force.
Iran, on the other hand, lacks a powerful air force against our regional adversaries and relies on our missiles as the main factor in our military power.
That's why I am confused if it actually makes sense for us to export our missiles in such large numbers for that kind of price.
I mean after all, if we want to export our missiles, we must be able to boost our missile production inside Iran with the revenue in a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense.

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## Sineva

QWECXZ said:


> Russians do not rely on short/medium range missiles for their military doctrine because they have a formidable air force.
> Iran, on the other hand, lacks a powerful air force against our regional adversaries and relies on our missiles as the main factor in our military power.
> That's why I am confused if it actually makes sense for us to export our missiles in such large numbers for that kind of price.
> I mean after all, if we want to export our missiles, we must be able to boost our missile production inside Iran with the revenue in a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense.


Another approach would be to offer to sell complete production lines for local production of the entire weapons system.The huge advantage here is that one is actually offering an entire package of technologies,that when mastered could then be used in the creation of multiple weapons systems.

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## QWECXZ

Sineva said:


> Another approach would be to offer to sell complete production lines for local production of the entire weapons system.The huge advantage here is that one is actually offering an entire package of technologies,that when mastered could then be used in the creation of multiple weapons systems.


Yes, but that also requires a deep level of trust and guarantees to ensure that our military knowledge will not be transferred to our adversaries.

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## jauk

Reading these, I must say I'm not comfortable for the IRI to provide these systems to allies for profit. Yes, all allies have responsibilities in their roles in the Axis of Resistance, but purely to further the cause of justice. As such, the IRI MUST provide to allies in this context. Just not for profit. Maybe even less than cost. I love the knowledge transfer for example. I certainly hope the IRI does not get into an arms for profit business. Their are far better activities to further the cause of humanity.

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## AmirPatriot

Wrote this thread on the recent BM-45, BM-120... BM-700 videos.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469672194850631681

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## skyshadow

AmirPatriot said:


> Wrote this thread on the recent BM-45, BM-120... BM-700 videos.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469672194850631681


I have read it, great thread man, excellent job, it seems our bunker booster missiles need better materials for grater penetration roll

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## Iranitaakharin

Dariush the Great said:


> Do these belong to the army or the IRGC?



Apparently the MOD released the videos.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469308000297009153

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## jauk

Separately, is it me or has the explosive force of the impacts, shown in the clips, substantially increased?

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## Abid123

Stryker1982 said:


> These types of things are usually never disclosed to the public.


No estimate either?


QWECXZ said:


> That's what I'm wondering too. If they are for export, they must have a price tag.


My guess would be 2-2.5 million USD for cruise missiles and 5 million+ USD for ballistic missiles.


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## skyshadow

*it seems IRGC biggest and most advanced exercise is going to start in few days, its time for something new, something a little more powerful.


Iranian NOTAM for live firing practice (Air to Surface/Surface to Air) in waters North of the Strait of Hormuz, all day (morning to midnight) from 13 Dec 21 until 20 Dec 21. 





*

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> *it seems IRGC biggest and most advanced exercise is going to start in few days, its time for something new, something a little more powerful.
> 
> 
> Iranian NOTAM for live firing practice (Air to Surface/Surface to Air) in waters North of the Strait of Hormuz, all day (morning to midnight) from 13 Dec 21 until 20 Dec 21.
> 
> View attachment 801277
> *


Hopefully some interesting footage to come. Optimistic IMA media will be following.

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## Philip the Arab

Hey @Stryker1982 you mind taking a look at this PDF for me and telling me if you agree that this penetrating warhead called Earth-Quick is for ballistic missiles.



https://edgesolutions4export.edgegroup.ae/media1111/halcon/PENETRATING%20WARHEAD.pdf


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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> Hey @Stryker1982 you mind taking a look at this PDF for me and telling me if you agree that this penetrating warhead called Earth-Quick is for ballistic missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> https://edgesolutions4export.edgegroup.ae/media1111/halcon/PENETRATING%20WARHEAD.pdf


Definitely some sort of solid fuel motor business going on here from what they are saying in the doc.

I can't really tell the diameter of the warhead, but it does not look like the big ones consistent with a 300 km tactical missile unless the picture is very deceiving. But to me this indicate theirs a battlefield missile in development. If their is a prototype model physically made out there, we can probably guestimate the range, but from my guess it's probably a battlefield missile designed to strike hardened targets to support the troops.

It's only a matter of time that they develop an SRBM this might be the initial stages of this process. It would be logical that they develop missiles that would at least cover the Strait of Hormuz and Qatar.

Edit: I should add one thing, it would make sense this development of a SRM earth-penetrator is probably coming from experiences in the Yemen war, and the requirement for something bunker busting that is completely lacking in that theater.

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## Philip the Arab

@Stryker1982
Here is a picture for scale my bad, I heard diameter was 400mm supposedly.

Keep in mind UAE abides by MTCR so we may see longer ranged ballistic missiles with very large warheads that could be used as export missiles with range under 300km in the future.

They likely are working on dual use technology related to both SLV and BM technolgies.

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## sanel1412

skyshadow said:


> *it seems IRGC biggest and most advanced exercise is going to start in few days, its time for something new, something a little more powerful.
> 
> 
> Iranian NOTAM for live firing practice (Air to Surface/Surface to Air) in waters North of the Strait of Hormuz, all day (morning to midnight) from 13 Dec 21 until 20 Dec 21.
> 
> View attachment 801277
> *


Interesting it is UKMTO(Uniteda Kingdom Marine Trade Organization) notice, I think there should also Global Marine Organization NOTAM..... They probaly publish same notice from Iran org any way, SO it is not important.... It is Just Something cross My mind

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> Hopefully some interesting footage to come. Optimistic IMA media will be following.


well IMA media performed poorly in last large air defense exercise as you remember they only showed couple of radars, but you know fingers crossed


sanel1412 said:


> Interesting it is UKMTO(Uniteda Kingdom Marine Trade Organization) notice, I think there should also Global Marine Organization NOTAM..... They probaly publish same notice from Iran org any way, SO it is not important.... It is Just Something cross My mind


I think Oman will do just that

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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> @Stryker1982
> Here is a picture for scale my bad, I heard diameter was 400mm supposedly.
> 
> Keep in mind UAE abides by MTCR so we may see longer ranged ballistic missiles with very large warheads that could be used as export missiles with range under 300km in the future.
> 
> They likely are working on dual use technology related to both SLV and BM technolgies.
> 
> View attachment 801321


That's a good pic.

If it's 400mm, it's probably under 300km, unless it's' detachable (doesn't seem so) or if the body has boosters, so I am not sure about the range they claim until we see the body. Besides, the earth-penetration is really all about the warhead than the body anyways.

This will likely be the first of many UAE missile project over the next few years. I should say, the missile market under 300km is pretty saturated so I am not sure what they could offer different than other manufactures. If you want high quality, high price, then you go American, French, If you want good cost/performance ratio then Russians, S. Koreans, if you want lowest cost (China), if you want to be sanctioned then you go Iran or N. Koreans 😂 .

Could see something like this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahaar_(missile)

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## skyshadow

*BM-440





*

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## Muhammed45



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## skyshadow



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## Sineva

Heres one that I liked




I really liked the "subtle" feature in this one,if you look closely you can see that some of the bars in the barcode are in the shape of missiles.

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## Sineva

Sineva said:


> Heres one that I liked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really liked the "subtle" feature in this one,if you look closely you can see that some of the bars in the barcode are in the shape of missiles.


This one is almost as good,but not quite as "subtle" tho` 




However,the great thing about this,is that it shows israels near total lack of any sort of strategic depth.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473260748688269324

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473263404194353158

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473325591382347781


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## Stryker1982

Where is my Kim-glider Hajizadeh!?


skyshadow said:


> *BM-440
> 
> View attachment 801816
> *



F*** It's crazy how accurate these have become.


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## yugocrosrb95

Stryker1982 said:


> Where is my Kim-glider Hajizadeh!?
> 
> 
> F*** It's crazy how accurate these have become.


It can be even more accurate if signals from GPS, GLONASS, Beidou and Galileo were used together to maximize accuracy.


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## Blue In Green

I hope we never have to hear some idiot "analyst" say that Iran doesn't make quality missiles or other military equipment. 

These missiles are world-class and they get the job done. 

Well done Iran!

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## Stryker1982

Blue In Green said:


> I hope we never have to hear some idiot "analyst" say that Iran doesn't make quality missiles or other military equipment.
> 
> These missiles are world-class and they get the job done.
> 
> Well done Iran!



"Not accurate" they would say. True, maybe in 2010, but not today. 

They must be producing a f*** ton of solid fuel every year to produce all these missiles. I guess you can say we are good at blowing shit up without an airforce.

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## sha ah

If you look at the missile strikes on the US Al Asad base in Iraq, they were pretty accurate. 








yugocrosrb95 said:


> It can be even more accurate if signals from GPS, GLONASS, Beidou and Galileo were used together to maximize accuracy.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474313887092817927

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474297401917820956

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474307262370009089

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474296633986895873

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474303007844192268

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474304632067342337

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474330646243950617

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474339912401010689

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## yugocrosrb95

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474346194851799053


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## Bahram Esfandiari

Iran has developed new class of Maneuverable reentry vehicles (MaRV) designed to counter Arrow-3 and THAAD!!!
أخٌ‌في‌الله on Twitter: "خبری بد برای صهیونیستها #زندگی_سگی_اسرائیلیها https://t.co/1opt35NnqE" / Twitter

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## sha ah

Iran needs to develop, mass produce and deploy hypersonic missiles. This will be a game changer. Only China has deployed them. Russia is on the verge of deploying them and the US is still in testing phase with the latest tests having failed.



Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Iran has developed new class of Maneuverable reentry vehicles (MaRV) designed to counter Arrow-3 and THAAD!!!
> أخٌ‌في‌الله on Twitter: "خبری بد برای صهیونیستها #زندگی_سگی_اسرائیلیها https://t.co/1opt35NnqE" / Twitter

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## 925boy

sha ah said:


> Iran needs to develop, mass produce and deploy hypersonic missiles. This will be a game changer. Only China has deployed them. Russia is on the verge of deploying them and the US is still in testing phase with the latest tests having failed.


but @yugocrosrb95 started insulting me and attacking me (which btw i think makes me feel like i made a good point,because he had been chartting his mouth off on this thread like a military professor, until i challenged some assumptions he made and he had to call me stupid about 60 times in 1 post) because i said North Korea getting HGV ALL CAME FROM CHINA AND RUSSIA. how can a broke and under developed counrrty of N Korea's level develop HGVs??? just not realistically possible at this time without advanced external help, AKA CHINA AND RUSSIA supplied it.


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## yugocrosrb95

925boy said:


> but @yugocrosrb95 started insulting me and attacking me (which btw i think makes me feel like i made a good point,because he had been chartting his mouth off on this thread like a military professor, until i challenged some assumptions he made and he had to call me stupid about 60 times in 1 post) because i said North Korea getting HGV ALL CAME FROM CHINA AND RUSSIA. how can a broke and under developed counrrty of N Korea's level develop HGVs??? just not realistically possible at this time without advanced external help, AKA CHINA AND RUSSIA supplied it.


...and? How many times were allegations that China or Russia assisted North Korea on this or that thing only for there to be absolutely zero evidence?

If they were then someone would have found out already, even if covered up it would probably be on Wikileaks or something similar... Yet nothing.


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## Smarana Mitra

925boy said:


> but @yugocrosrb95 started insulting me and attacking me (which btw i think makes me feel like i made a good point,because he had been chartting his mouth off on this thread like a military professor, until i challenged some assumptions he made and he had to call me stupid about 60 times in 1 post) because i said North Korea getting HGV ALL CAME FROM CHINA AND RUSSIA. how can a broke and under developed counrrty of N Korea's level develop HGVs??? just not realistically possible at this time without advanced external help, AKA CHINA AND RUSSIA supplied it.


North Korea has smart people and very high education standards. An average North Korean is more educated than an average American. NK has almost 0 illiteracy too. In NK, most of the smart people serve in defence sector which means all the talent is focused heavily on doing R&D for defence including reverse engineering.

A HGV is not new technology as all ballistic missiles have HGVs. Even in 1960s, the ICBMs made by USA & USSR had HGVs. It is just that the HGVs were not as advanced as they are today with all the maneuvering and homing capability. But, I don't think NK has the most advanced HGVs but simply the older and simpler variant which is quite plausible.

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## Messerschmitt



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## skyshadow

*I have counted up to 12 warheads hitting the site at 2 deferent launch angles.


























*

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## Blue In Green

skyshadow said:


> *I have counted up to 12 warheads hitting the site at 2 deferent launch angles.
> 
> 
> View attachment 803269
> 
> 
> View attachment 803270
> 
> 
> View attachment 803271
> 
> 
> View attachment 803272
> 
> 
> View attachment 803273
> *
> 
> View attachment 803275
> 
> 
> View attachment 803276
> 
> 
> View attachment 803277



I think the plan is to entirely level the DIMONA nuclear facility.

My hope is that IRGC Aerospace forces will also use hardened tipped warheads for extra earth-penetration along with the regular ones in order to maximize damage. Maybe they also plan on using the Khorramshahr which can accommodate really large warhead payloads (~1,800kg warhead!).

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 803131
> View attachment 803132
> View attachment 803133
> View attachment 803134
> View attachment 803135
> View attachment 803136
> View attachment 803137
> View attachment 803138
> View attachment 803139
> View attachment 803140
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474313887092817927
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474297401917820956
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474307262370009089
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474296633986895873
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474303007844192268
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474304632067342337



oh shit what!

Thank you Messerschmitt, you are a true patriot!

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474339912401010689



By far the most interesting part of this exercise and probably the most important. I think I remember old conversations @PeeD had on this thread about the possibility of using gas thrusters or some sort of mechanism to help change the trajectory of the MaRV to counter exo-atmospheric interception by THAAD or other systems. But the cost of it would be high. No MaRV in Iran had such capability yet but it seems like they are going with this route. This is so so so important to putting alot of stress on the Arrow-3. The more difficult the interception, the easier it is to saturate the system. 

Probably what caused condemnation by the UK who wouldn't have cared if it was a normal launching of missiles. Considering their ability to tracking BM's through satellites they probably saw one of the MaRV performing maneuvers high up in a way they never expected.

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## Dariush the Great

longer clearer footage including missile launchs.

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## Stryker1982

Dariush the Great said:


> longer clearer footage including missile launchs.


Some of them come in a really really sharp angles, it's actually quite incredible, and some are coming in near vertical. Challenging to defend against. You can kinda tell which ones are the vertically launched ones and which are the angled launched ones, and can see different impact sizes from each.

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## Stryker1982

IMA Media will prob come out with a video of this soon.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474660029915611139

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## Messerschmitt

Stryker1982 said:


> IMA Media will prob come out with a video of this soon.

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## Messerschmitt



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## Philip the Arab

@Stryker1982
I'm not sure if being able to machine and manufacture a sounding rocket means you can produce a ballistic missile but according to the CNC machining manager of Halcon they produced this rocket 100% in house.

They likely cant produce propellant yet but I'll update you if they somehow manage to.

Although 480mm is not a very thick diameter compared to even SRBMs like the ATACMs. This makes me about 100% certain they could produce long range MLRS rockets at least.






Hope they can scoop up some engineers involved in the RSA-3 ICBM project.

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## Aramagedon

Imagine if we fire this deadly missile on alSuad palace and flatten their palace in a fraction of a second: 🤩

Just matter of time ..

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## Philip the Arab

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 803456


I wonder if Noko is ahead of Iran in hypersonics.

There may be some Chinese involvement in the Hwasong-8 which could be transferred to Iran.

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## skyshadow

​*just your friendly neighborhood Dzful*​

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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> @Stryker1982
> I'm not sure if being able to machine and manufacture a sounding rocket means you can produce a ballistic missile but according to the CNC machining manager of Halcon they produced this rocket 100% in house.
> 
> They likely cant produce propellant yet but I'll update you if they somehow manage to.
> 
> Although 480mm is not a very thick diameter compared to even SRBMs like the ATACMs. This makes me about 100% certain they could produce long range MLRS rockets at least.
> 
> View attachment 803457
> 
> 
> Hope they can scoop up some engineers involved in the RSA-3 ICBM project.


Yeah in terms of tactical battlefield rockets I expect them to get there very soon. It's all also legal under MTCR. The motor is always hardest so I am not sure on the timeframe of that, but if someone provides a good motor, I can see further than MLRS into 100km rockets with TELs in a short time frame..

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## Iranitaakharin

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474771474552705025

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474837423133798402

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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> I wonder if Noko is ahead of Iran in hypersonics.
> 
> There may be some Chinese involvement in the Hwasong-8 which could be transferred to Iran.


They are in terms of the glider tech level, and motors. They are quite poor though relatively so in terms of quantities they are not very great in serial production.

Alot of those missiles that are seen in the videos that are coming out, all have gliding warheads, but in terms of glider RV performance they are ahead. Longer glide period, more aerodynamic, better thermal shielding. Suffice to say, Iranian missiles are fast af, and optimized for speed, accuracy and serial production. NK's are optimized for nuclear warheads.

Usually if the NK boi's have it, I wouldn't be surprised if it finds its way to Iran, but reconfigured to be compatible with current Iranian missiles. Since they haven't show it yet in these exercises It is probably not ready yet. But we have a good idea of which missile would probably be retrofitted with a Hwasong -8 HGV.

The Khorramshahr missile is said to be a Hwasong-10, but not an exact replica, because we can empirically see it being much longer than the Noko boi's and configured to Iranian needs so It is not out of the question that the same could happen.

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## Philip the Arab

Stryker1982 said:


> Yeah in terms of tactical battlefield rockets I expect them to get there very soon. It's all also legal under MTCR. The motor is always hardest so I am not sure on the timeframe of that, but if someone provides a good motor, I can see further than MLRS into 100km rockets with TELs in a short time frame..


They may end up with being able to design and produce most of the rocket motor indigenously. Also got wind of cooperation with Serbians in this field who are not bound by MTCR legally.

They first person is working at Halcon now














Iranitaakharin said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474771474552705025
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474837423133798402


Wouldnt the Israelis shut down Dimona before the first missile hits it?

I'm 100% sure they have plans for this scenario.
Maybe another member could shed more light on the effect of missiles on a nuclear reactor.


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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> They may end up with being able to design and produce most of the rocket motor indigenously. Also got wind of cooperation with Serbians in this field who are not bound by MTCR legally.
> 
> They first person is working at Halcon now
> View attachment 803473
> 
> 
> View attachment 803471
> View attachment 803472
> 
> 
> Wouldnt the Israelis shut down Dimona before the first missile hits it?
> 
> I'm 100% sure they have plans for this scenario.
> Maybe another member could shed more light on the effect of missiles on a nuclear reactor.



I am not even sure if Dimona is even active, or has been active for years. I don't think this is actually a real plan, but more like a demonstration for the enemy. I suppose the justication for it would be if they attack a live reactor in Iran, in which case the whole region is F***ed for real, because if Israel attacked Bushehr stupidly, Iran would attack Dimona, and from east to west the whole place is done for. The gamma radiation can spread 1000's of kms.

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## Iranitaakharin

Philip the Arab said:


> They may end up with being able to design and produce most of the rocket motor indigenously. Also got wind of cooperation with Serbians in this field who are not bound by MTCR legally.
> 
> They first person is working at Halcon now
> View attachment 803473
> 
> 
> View attachment 803471
> View attachment 803472
> 
> 
> Wouldnt the Israelis shut down Dimona before the first missile hits it?
> 
> I'm 100% sure they have plans for this scenario.
> Maybe another member could shed more light on the effect of missiles on a nuclear reactor.



What timeframe will it take for the UAE to have a missile program similar to the Iranian one?

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474660029915611139


By the time those schmucks in the US and Israel actually finish developing the Arrow-4 missile and then get them to deploy in the field to counter the Haj Qasem missile, Iran would've already fielded a Hwasong-8 type glider. Willing to bet on that.

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## Philip the Arab

Iranitaakharin said:


> What timeframe will it take for the UAE to have a missile program similar to the Iranian one?


Depends on a ton of things, I dont really think it could ever compare to Iran's. It would need billions upon billions of dollars.

They may focus on developing technolgies such as hypersonic glide vehicles, and MARVs though. Brazil was able to develop one with a far smaller budget than what the UAE would be able to come up with.

Ballistic missiles are a secondary goal for them as their air force is the main source of offensive power.

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## Stryker1982

Philip the Arab said:


> Depends on a ton of things, I dont really think it could ever compare to Iran's. It would need billions upon billions of dollars.
> 
> They may focus on developing technolgies such as hypersonic glide vehicles, and MARVs though. Brazil was able to develop one with a far smaller budget than what the UAE would be able to come up with.
> 
> Ballistic missiles are a secondary goal for them as their air force is the main source of offensive power.



*Just asking for a friend.
*

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## Aramagedon



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## jauk

Iranitaakharin said:


> What timeframe will it take for the UAE to have a missile program similar to the Iranian one?


Never.

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## sanel1412

Philip the Arab said:


> They may end up with being able to design and produce most of the rocket motor indigenously. Also got wind of cooperation with Serbians in this field who are not bound by MTCR legally.
> 
> They first person is working at Halcon now
> View attachment 803473
> 
> 
> View attachment 803471
> View attachment 803472
> 
> 
> Wouldnt the Israelis shut down Dimona before the first missile hits it?
> 
> I'm 100% sure they have plans for this scenario.
> Maybe another member could shed more light on the effect of missiles on a nuclear reactor.


You cant shut down reactor,you can stop doing some tasks,control certain things but reactor must be maintained every second....it is cooled 24/7 ,reaction can be controled...but even if you can stop reaction,which would mean reactor is shut down,you are still using system to keep it in that condition,so rector must be always maintained, if it is hit...even if just some secundary system is disrupted it will cause chain reaction. Today reactors are well protected vs earthquake but attack is something else,because you taget everthing they need to maintain it...For example enrichment facility and some other parts of nulear program can be proteted vs attack...but reactors will always be at risk....even if you hide it underground

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## 925boy

Philip the Arab said:


> I wonder if Noko is ahead of Iran in hypersonics.


I am still yet to get a logically conclusive argument on PDF as to how NK can be ahead of Iran in hypersonics - China and Russia gave NK all the new tech they have, people are so naive!!

How can so many advanced countries NOT have HGVs but N. Korea does????? make it make sense! Russia or/and China gave it to N. Korea, simple!

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## jauk

Philip the Arab said:


> Depends on a ton of things, I dont really think it could ever compare to Iran's. It would need billions upon billions of dollars.
> 
> They may focus on developing technolgies such as hypersonic glide vehicles, and MARVs though. Brazil was able to develop one with a far smaller budget than what the UAE would be able to come up with.
> 
> Ballistic missiles are a secondary goal for them as their air force is the main source of offensive power.


Not sure how you come to these conclusions but the UAE neither has the industrial nor the scientific base to make any meaningful strategic weaponry. Everything else they buy/import or kit-mount.

Additionally, 'strategic' and a country the size of a city like the UAE is a contradiction in terms. They will be flattened in minutes by countries with geographic depth. Which is the same disadvantage Israel suffers from.

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## yugocrosrb95

925boy said:


> I am still yet to get a logically conclusive argument on PDF as to how NK can be ahead of Iran in hypersonics - China and Russia gave NK all the new tech they have, people are so naive!!
> 
> How can so many advanced countries NOT have HGVs but N. Korea does????? make it make sense! Russia or/and China gave it to N. Korea, simple!


It must be so according to simpletons like you...

As if they didn't have over 40 years of experience with missiles.

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## 925boy

yugocrosrb95 said:


> It must be so according to simpletons like you...


simple defines your presence on PDF, not mine. I asked for evidence and instead you get triggered everytime. ur sketchy.

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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> ​*just your friendly neighborhood Dzful*​
> 
> View attachment 803464


Remember guys! 16 missiles were fired only 8 hit their targets so its 50% success rate!


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## Bahram Esfandiari

scimitar19 said:


> Remember guys! 16 missiles were fired only 8 hit their targets so its 50% success rate!


From what I saw in the Videos there were 8x "Fateh-110" type missiles( could have been Zolfaqar or Dezful missiles) 3x Emad and 1x Sejjil-2 missilles on launchers. All but one Emad were launched and I counted at least 10 impacts. I give a score of 83% based on what is present in the actual footage I have seen.

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## Messerschmitt

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> From what I saw in the Videos there were 8x "Fateh-110" type missiles( could have been Zolfaqar or Dezful missiles) 3x Emad and 1x Sejjil-2 missilles on launchers. All but one Emad were launched and I counted at least 10 impacts. I give a score of 83% based on what is present in the actual footage I have seen.


I counted 12 impacts and it appears like they intentionally haven't shown the impacts by the Emad and Sejjil MRBMs.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475029373115850752

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## Blue In Green



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## yugocrosrb95

925boy said:


> simple defines your presence on PDF, not mine. I asked for evidence and instead you get triggered everytime. ur sketchy.


I am sketchy? You're one here claiming that China or Russia must have assisted North Korea without any evidence.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475081677890326528


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## Bahram Esfandiari

Its Funny, I can't find a single video showing the missile barrage of the Demona target on you Tube.

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## Dariush the Great

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> Its Funny, I can't find a single video showing the missile barrage of the Demona target on you Tube.



Youtube is full of it

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Dariush the Great said:


> Youtube is full of it


Thanks. I was searching for English language videos but couldn't find any.


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## Abid123

925boy said:


> I am still yet to get a logically conclusive argument on PDF as to how NK can be ahead of Iran in hypersonics - China and Russia gave NK all the new tech they have, people are so naive!!
> 
> How can so many advanced countries NOT have HGVs but N. Korea does????? make it make sense! Russia or/and China gave it to N. Korea, simple!


North Korea is quite advanced when it comes to missile tech. I would not be surprised if they delevoped ICBM/HGV without foreign help. North Korea has been producing ballistic missiles for 30+ years now.

Not related to the topic but the Pakistani nuclear scientists that visited NK in the early 2000s said that North Korean nuclear scientist were highly capable.

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## 925boy

yugocrosrb95 said:


> I am sketchy? You're one here claiming that China or Russia must have assisted North Korea without any evidence.


the evidence that is that a country WITH NORTH KOREA"s stats and life, CANNOT MAKE HGV on their own! c'mon bro, common sense tells me this, but obv it goes over your head as fast as HGV, LETS GET INTO IT:

You say N Korea has 40 + years of experience? well there are many countries with 40+ years of military experience with missiles that dont have HGV, a few are Israel, UK, Germany, etc, and they have generally more advanced military science and industry than North Korea does domestically, so NOrth Korea ON ITS OWN, cannot make HGVs, or even S300s, i am sure of that, because domestically, tehy are hermit kingdom and they are middle income country at best, they are welfare state maintained by China and Russia, AS DETETRRENCE, against western capitalism, if North Korea gets too weak, US and SK forces might be tempted to invade...N Koea without Chinese help, would probably have been run over, how old are you? South Korea doesnt even have HGVs and its the SAME PEOPLE, SAME INTELLIGENCE, AND WEALTHIER, and has more western/US militarty tech access, so explain how N Korea that is worse off in most ways than S Korea GOT SUCH AN ADVANCED technology that ONLY Russia and China have???????? OMG, you came on this forum talking all smart and spicy but then you slipped and then got all hyper irritated, show some respect bro, where did u come from?? explain this shit to us, but actually, you'll explain it to youirself, because you dont want to see the real truth- North Korea's military is mostly surviving and living because of China, N Korea cant make S300, and China or Russia helped them make their nuclear ICBM that works...either chinese blueprints, or TOT or something...all the new N Korean military hardware we see, is mostly possible because of China and Russia, END OF STORY.


Abid123 said:


> I would not be surprised if they delevoped ICBM/HGV without foreign help.


You know, i'm beginning to strongly suspect that people on PDF who say this, are very likely to also say Hamas's rockets and weapons dont come mostly from Iran, especially the larger and more deadly ones. Just wondering...

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## yugocrosrb95

925boy is in full meltdown mode...

North Korea can't do it because he says so, he asks about evidence while providing nothing for own assertion that China and or Russia helped North Korea.

925boy should not assume that HGV that North Korea has shown as being as advanced as Chinese or Russian also Iran basically has HGV with those finned warheads.

Iranians only need to program it to do a pull up maneuver to extend the range a bit or do change ballistic trajectory to be straight up top attack.

North Korea blasted their reentry vehicle heat shield with 40 ton force rocket engine and it survived, rocket engines have exhaust temperature of 3200 celsius.

That is twice the melting point of titanium or reentry speed of ICBM warhead and for that reason they have material to build airframe of their HGV.

France with population comparable to Iran is preparing to conduct first test of their HGV and they launched that program 3 years ago.

Russian Avangard is an ICBM HGV while China had their DF-17 MRMB/IRBM enter service, North Korea is just now doing first steps for MRBM/IRBM HGV.

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## sanel1412

Bot Russia and China have signed treaty with N.Korea in 1960...and the clause on automatic military assistance in case of attack was one of paragraphs in treaty with Russia..and I think also with China but I am nit sure...I know in treaty signed with China,there is clausule about military assistance..but not sure is it speified in case of war as with Russia. In 2000 Russia negotiated new treaty and signed..China still has this from 1960..there was lot of assistance from both countries,in missile tech,and many other fields...but thing is...it was all long time ago, North Korea along the way developed its own capacity and they are now,I belive as Iran,independent when it comes to missile tech,they dont need foreign assistance for quite some time. But even they are now advanced and independent in missile tech...you just need to take look engine design,nozzle tech...and even on their latest ICBMs you can see Russian traces....and those are not developed from Scuds...but Russian ICBM like engines....They have Russian built MIG-29 assembly factory in Pjong Yang ,not sure is it working anything now,but North Korean migs are not delivered assembled,they did assembly in country,they also built maintaice facilit...their submarines are Russian onverted subs(those with SLBM)...everywhere ou look you can see trace...their latest tactical BM is Iskander copy paste(even they could be just influenced with Iskander,for more close look is needed) but on ICBM engines it is clear design is from Russian ICBMs,they have even have same nozzle tech,chemical compounds with new upgrades but on Russian basis....There is plenty evidence,read UN reports...there are dates and places ,intercepted deliveries...But as I said all of this belongs to past,they are now capable of doing things on its own. On the question "How under developed country became more advanced in Hyper sonic glide vehicle than rich country....It became more advanced by pushing it in the corner..they dont have money or because of sanctions cant access market to buy bombers,fighters...etc and only thing that left is..build detterance on its own..

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## Stryker1982

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475242563951079427
Samir as usual very good at Geolocating.

625km distance.

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## Stryker1982

skyshadow said:


> *I have counted up to 12 warheads hitting the site at 2 deferent launch angles.
> 
> 
> View attachment 803269
> 
> 
> View attachment 803270
> 
> 
> View attachment 803271
> 
> 
> View attachment 803272
> 
> 
> View attachment 803273
> *
> 
> View attachment 803275
> 
> 
> View attachment 803276
> 
> 
> View attachment 803277


I thought about this for a bit, and wondered how a few of the warheads came in from strange angles. Based on the videos, they should all be coming in from the same direction, or vertically, so how some are coming from the left side is curious.

Is it possible that the glider RVs are able to actually fly past the proposed target, and use their high reserve energy to dive down and turn slightly back?
We know for a fact the Dezful missile strikes the target vertically, despite being launched horizontally.
Just some thoughts. Or maybe they just launched from a second location as well. I dunno.

Excuse the shitty crude drawing:






Also, the Dezful warhead is so much stronger than the Zolfiqar that struck the dome. Thermobaric warheads!

Also another thing, did you guys notice how despite the different type of missiles, both angle and vertical launched including different models (ranges/speeds/motors). The missiles arrived nearly simultaneously? A horizontal launched Dezful and vertical launched Emad reached within seconds of each other....very interesting. I wonder how they managed to do that. If the missiles trickled in slowly with minutes apart, it would make it easier to defend but they all arrived almost at the same time.

I could be mistaken, and the Emad Qiam vertical launched missiles were never fired to that target, and instead went somewhere else. @skyshadow counted 12 warheads, while only 8 of them were angle launched based on the IMA media video. Which means the other 4 warheads, must've come from the Emad/Qiam(?)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474705865009680385

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## Sineva

Iran Tests Missile Against Target Resembling Israeli Nuclear Reactor

planet.com shows the before and after pics of the Dimona target simulation in 3m resolution.

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## Surenas

Some interesting comments regarding Iran's missile program in this New Yorker magazine article of today.

*The Looming Threat of a Nuclear Crisis with Iran*

The first salvo struck around 1 _a.m._ Master Sergeant Janet Liliu recounted to investigators, “What happened in the bunkers, well, no words can describe the atmosphere. I wasn’t ready to die, but I tried to prepare myself with every announcement of an incoming missile.” The bombardment dragged on for hours; it was the largest ballistic-missile attack ever by any nation on American troops. No Americans died, but a hundred and ten suffered traumatic brain injuries. Trump dismissed the suffering at Al Asad. “I heard they had headaches,” he told reporters. Two years later, many of those at Al Asad are still experiencing profound memory, vision, and hearing losses. One died by suicide in October. Eighty have been awarded Purple Hearts.

The lesson of Al Asad, McKenzie told me, is that Iran’s missiles have become a more immediate threat than its nuclear program. For decades, Iran’s rockets and missiles were wildly inaccurate. At Al Asad, “they hit pretty much where they wanted to hit,” McKenzie said. Now they “can strike effectively across the breadth and depth of the Middle East. They could strike with accuracy, and they could strike with volume.”

Iran’s advances have impressed both allies and enemies. After the 1979 revolution, the young theocracy purged the Shah’s military and rebuilt it almost from scratch, despite waves of economic sanctions. Iran fought a ruinous eight-year war with Iraq in the nineteen-eighties that further depleted its armory. Its Air Force is still weak, its ships and tanks are mediocre, and its military is not capable of invading another country and holding territory.

Instead, the regime has concentrated on developing missiles with longer reach, precision accuracy, and greater destructive power. Iran is now one of the world’s top missile producers. Its arsenal is the largest and most diverse in the Middle East, the Defense Intelligence Agency reported. “Iran has proven that it is using its ballistic-missile program as a means to coerce or intimidate its neighbors,” Malley told me. Iran can fire more missiles than its adversaries—including the United States and Israel—can shoot down or destroy. Tehran has achieved what McKenzie calls “overmatch”—a level of capability in which a country has weaponry that makes it extremely difficult to check or defeat. “Iran’s strategic capacity is now enormous,” McKenzie said. “They’ve got overmatch in the theatre—the ability to overwhelm.”

Amir Ali Hajizadeh, a brigadier general and a former sniper who heads Iran’s Aerospace Force, is known for incendiary bravado. In 2019, he boasted, “Everybody should know that all American bases and their vessels in a distance of up to two thousand kilometres are within the range of our missiles. We have constantly prepared ourselves for a full-fledged war.” Hajizadeh succeeded General Hassan Moghaddam, who founded Iran’s missile and drone programs, and who died in 2011, with sixteen others, in a mysterious explosion. They had been working on a missile capable of hitting Israel.

Israelis call Hajizadeh the new Suleimani. McKenzie called him reckless. In 2019, Hajizadeh’s forces downed a U.S. reconnaissance drone over the Persian Gulf. He also orchestrated the missile strikes on Al Asad. Hours after that attack, his forces shot down a Ukrainian Boeing 737 passenger plane, with a hundred and seventy-six people on board, as it took off from Tehran’s international airport. Everyone perished. For three days, Iran refused to accept blame until, under pressure, Hajizadeh went on television to admit it.


Iran now has the largest known underground complexes in the Middle East housing nuclear and missile programs. Most of the tunnels are in the west, facing Israel, or on the southern coast, across from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf sheikhdoms. This fall, satellite imagery tracked new underground construction near Bakhtaran, the most extensive complex. The tunnels, carved out of rock, descend more than sixteen hundred feet underground. Some complexes reportedly stretch for miles. Iran calls them “missile cities.”

In 2020, the Revolutionary Guard marked the anniversary of the U.S. Embassy takeover by releasing a video of Hajizadeh inspecting a subterranean missile arsenal. As suspenseful music plays in the background, he and two other Revolutionary Guard commanders march through a tunnel lined with rows of missiles stacked on top of one another. A recording of General Suleimani echoes in the background: “You start this war, but we create the end of it.” An underground railroad ferries Emad missiles for rapid successive launches. Emads have a range of a thousand miles and can carry a conventional or a nuclear warhead.

Iran’s missile program “is much more advanced than Pakistan’s,” Uzi Rubin, the first head of Israel’s Missile Defense Organization, told me. Experts compare Iran with North Korea, which helped seed Tehran’s program in the nineteen-eighties. Some of Iran’s missiles are superior to Pyongyang’s, Jeffrey Lewis, of the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, told me. Experts believe that North Korea may now be importing Iranian missile technology.

The Islamic Republic has thousands of ballistic missiles, according to U.S. intelligence assessments. They can reach as far as thirteen hundred miles in any direction—deep into India and China to the east; high into Russia to the north; to Greece and other parts of Europe to the west; and as far south as Ethiopia, in the Horn of Africa. About a hundred missiles could reach Israel.

Iran also has hundreds of cruise missiles that can be fired from land or ships, fly at low altitude, and attack from multiple directions. They are harder for radar or satellites to detect, because, unlike ballistic missiles, their motors do not burn brightly on ignition. Cruise missiles have altered the balance of power across the Persian Gulf. In 2019, Iran unleashed cruise missiles and drones on two oil installations in Saudi Arabia, temporarily cutting off half of the oil production in the world’s largest supplier.

The Biden Administration has hoped to use progress on the nuclear deal to eventually broaden diplomacy and include Iran’s neighbors in talks on reducing regional tensions. “Even if we can revive the J.C.P.O.A., those problems are going to continue to poison the region and risk destabilizing it,” Malley told me. “If they continue, the response will be robust.”

It may be too late. Tehran has shown no willingness to barter over its missiles as it has with its nuclear program. “Once you have spent the money to build the facilities and train people and deliver missiles to the military units that were built around these missiles, you have an enormous constituency that wants to keep them,” Jeffrey Lewis said. “I don’t think there’s any hope of limiting Iran’s missile program.” President Raisi told reporters after his election, “Regional issues or the missile issue are non-negotiable.”









The Looming Threat of a Nuclear Crisis with Iran


The Biden Administration faces a potential confrontation with a longtime rival that is better armed and more hard-line than at any time in its modern history.




www.newyorker.com

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## Blue In Green

Surenas said:


> Some interesting comments regarding Iran's missile program in this New Yorker magazine article of today.
> 
> *The Looming Threat of a Nuclear Crisis with Iran*
> 
> The first salvo struck around 1 _a.m._ Master Sergeant Janet Liliu recounted to investigators, “What happened in the bunkers, well, no words can describe the atmosphere. I wasn’t ready to die, but I tried to prepare myself with every announcement of an incoming missile.” The bombardment dragged on for hours; it was the largest ballistic-missile attack ever by any nation on American troops. No Americans died, but a hundred and ten suffered traumatic brain injuries. Trump dismissed the suffering at Al Asad. “I heard they had headaches,” he told reporters. Two years later, many of those at Al Asad are still experiencing profound memory, vision, and hearing losses. One died by suicide in October. Eighty have been awarded Purple Hearts.
> 
> The lesson of Al Asad, McKenzie told me, is that Iran’s missiles have become a more immediate threat than its nuclear program. For decades, Iran’s rockets and missiles were wildly inaccurate. At Al Asad, “they hit pretty much where they wanted to hit,” McKenzie said. Now they “can strike effectively across the breadth and depth of the Middle East. They could strike with accuracy, and they could strike with volume.”
> 
> Iran’s advances have impressed both allies and enemies. After the 1979 revolution, the young theocracy purged the Shah’s military and rebuilt it almost from scratch, despite waves of economic sanctions. Iran fought a ruinous eight-year war with Iraq in the nineteen-eighties that further depleted its armory. Its Air Force is still weak, its ships and tanks are mediocre, and its military is not capable of invading another country and holding territory.
> 
> Instead, the regime has concentrated on developing missiles with longer reach, precision accuracy, and greater destructive power. Iran is now one of the world’s top missile producers. Its arsenal is the largest and most diverse in the Middle East, the Defense Intelligence Agency reported. “Iran has proven that it is using its ballistic-missile program as a means to coerce or intimidate its neighbors,” Malley told me. Iran can fire more missiles than its adversaries—including the United States and Israel—can shoot down or destroy. Tehran has achieved what McKenzie calls “overmatch”—a level of capability in which a country has weaponry that makes it extremely difficult to check or defeat. “Iran’s strategic capacity is now enormous,” McKenzie said. “They’ve got overmatch in the theatre—the ability to overwhelm.”
> 
> Amir Ali Hajizadeh, a brigadier general and a former sniper who heads Iran’s Aerospace Force, is known for incendiary bravado. In 2019, he boasted, “Everybody should know that all American bases and their vessels in a distance of up to two thousand kilometres are within the range of our missiles. We have constantly prepared ourselves for a full-fledged war.” Hajizadeh succeeded General Hassan Moghaddam, who founded Iran’s missile and drone programs, and who died in 2011, with sixteen others, in a mysterious explosion. They had been working on a missile capable of hitting Israel.
> 
> Israelis call Hajizadeh the new Suleimani. McKenzie called him reckless. In 2019, Hajizadeh’s forces downed a U.S. reconnaissance drone over the Persian Gulf. He also orchestrated the missile strikes on Al Asad. Hours after that attack, his forces shot down a Ukrainian Boeing 737 passenger plane, with a hundred and seventy-six people on board, as it took off from Tehran’s international airport. Everyone perished. For three days, Iran refused to accept blame until, under pressure, Hajizadeh went on television to admit it.
> 
> 
> Iran now has the largest known underground complexes in the Middle East housing nuclear and missile programs. Most of the tunnels are in the west, facing Israel, or on the southern coast, across from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf sheikhdoms. This fall, satellite imagery tracked new underground construction near Bakhtaran, the most extensive complex. The tunnels, carved out of rock, descend more than sixteen hundred feet underground. Some complexes reportedly stretch for miles. Iran calls them “missile cities.”
> 
> In 2020, the Revolutionary Guard marked the anniversary of the U.S. Embassy takeover by releasing a video of Hajizadeh inspecting a subterranean missile arsenal. As suspenseful music plays in the background, he and two other Revolutionary Guard commanders march through a tunnel lined with rows of missiles stacked on top of one another. A recording of General Suleimani echoes in the background: “You start this war, but we create the end of it.” An underground railroad ferries Emad missiles for rapid successive launches. Emads have a range of a thousand miles and can carry a conventional or a nuclear warhead.
> 
> Iran’s missile program “is much more advanced than Pakistan’s,” Uzi Rubin, the first head of Israel’s Missile Defense Organization, told me. Experts compare Iran with North Korea, which helped seed Tehran’s program in the nineteen-eighties. Some of Iran’s missiles are superior to Pyongyang’s, Jeffrey Lewis, of the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, told me. Experts believe that North Korea may now be importing Iranian missile technology.
> 
> The Islamic Republic has thousands of ballistic missiles, according to U.S. intelligence assessments. They can reach as far as thirteen hundred miles in any direction—deep into India and China to the east; high into Russia to the north; to Greece and other parts of Europe to the west; and as far south as Ethiopia, in the Horn of Africa. About a hundred missiles could reach Israel.
> 
> Iran also has hundreds of cruise missiles that can be fired from land or ships, fly at low altitude, and attack from multiple directions. They are harder for radar or satellites to detect, because, unlike ballistic missiles, their motors do not burn brightly on ignition. Cruise missiles have altered the balance of power across the Persian Gulf. In 2019, Iran unleashed cruise missiles and drones on two oil installations in Saudi Arabia, temporarily cutting off half of the oil production in the world’s largest supplier.
> 
> The Biden Administration has hoped to use progress on the nuclear deal to eventually broaden diplomacy and include Iran’s neighbors in talks on reducing regional tensions. “Even if we can revive the J.C.P.O.A., those problems are going to continue to poison the region and risk destabilizing it,” Malley told me. “If they continue, the response will be robust.”
> 
> It may be too late. Tehran has shown no willingness to barter over its missiles as it has with its nuclear program. “Once you have spent the money to build the facilities and train people and deliver missiles to the military units that were built around these missiles, you have an enormous constituency that wants to keep them,” Jeffrey Lewis said. “I don’t think there’s any hope of limiting Iran’s missile program.” President Raisi told reporters after his election, “Regional issues or the missile issue are non-negotiable.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Looming Threat of a Nuclear Crisis with Iran
> 
> 
> The Biden Administration faces a potential confrontation with a longtime rival that is better armed and more hard-line than at any time in its modern history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newyorker.com



It's really nice to see Western analysts and figure heads (especially pompous American ones) finally preach the honest reality of Iran's domestic missile program to their respective audiences. This is a total far-cry from Brian Hook's "it's a CGI missile" comments that only made America look stupid, especially after Ayn-al Assad. 

We've known for quite some time now that Iran's yearly missile production capacity and overall through-put is astronomical compared to its regional contemporaries and possibly even globally (I'd honestly bet money that Iran has to have one of the largest conventional missile stockpiles in the world, not just regionally). Along with that massive fabrication is also a very advanced and healthy R&D component that further adds to the overall lethality/capability of the missiles in question. And this goes for all of Iran's offensive weapons. 

Hajizadeh confirmed that Iran's missiles use both endoatmospheric (control surfaces) and exoatmospheric (gas thrusters) anti-ABM maneuvering capabilities on its most advanced warheads. Along side decoys, large volume of fire and dummy missiles (fired to waste enemy ABM stocks). Iran's missile strikes can severely degrade any enemy combatants conventional military within a week or so and wreak absolute havoc to critical national infrastructure. 

At one-point Iran produced so many missiles that the issue shifted from "we don't have enough missiles" to " we don't have optimal firing methods due to our immense stockpiles and we need to make more space underground". It's probably the best 'problem' to have lmao. 

Regardless, the future of Iran's IRGC-AEROSPACE missile force is unbelievably bright.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475412138286096384

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475493788298665984

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## Messerschmitt



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## Muhammed45

What a 'veiwing angle'

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## Dariush the Great

Some new footage

Practicing attack on Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) facilities

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## Stryker1982

Dariush the Great said:


> Some new footage
> 
> Practicing attack on Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) facilities


Well it looks like some new details emerged.

They had also used Zelzal missiles. As some have noted the range is low, this could have a been a rehearsal for a joint Iran-Hezbollah attack. 

And it begs the question where those 4 vertically launched missiles were shot?


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## yugocrosrb95

Stryker1982 said:


> Well it looks like some new details emerged.
> 
> They had also used Zelzal missiles. As some have noted the range is low, this could have a been a rehearsal for a joint Iran-Hezbollah attack.
> 
> And it begs the question where those 4 vertically launched missiles were shot?


Those may be MRBM Qiam or Ghadr or Emad.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475504629781782539

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## yugocrosrb95

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475488078701776906

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475410986949648386

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## skyshadow

scimitar19 said:


> Remember guys! 16 missiles were fired only 8 hit their targets so its 50% success rate!


I counted 12 warheads hitting the targets in my previous post


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## scimitar19

skyshadow said:


> I counted 12 warheads hitting the targets in my previous post


It doesn't matter its always 50% by some members here.

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## Ich

scimitar19 said:


> It doesn't matter its always 50% by some members here.



That, or "in 20 years"

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## skyshadow

Stryker1982 said:


> I thought about this for a bit, and wondered how a few of the warheads came in from strange angles. Based on the videos, they should all be coming in from the same direction, or vertically, so how some are coming from the left side is curious.
> 
> Is it possible that the glider RVs are able to actually fly past the proposed target, and use their high reserve energy to dive down and turn slightly back?
> We know for a fact the Dezful missile strikes the target vertically, despite being launched horizontally.
> Just some thoughts. Or maybe they just launched from a second location as well. I dunno.
> 
> Excuse the shitty crude drawing:
> View attachment 803679
> 
> 
> Also, the Dezful warhead is so much stronger than the Zolfiqar that struck the dome. Thermobaric warheads!
> 
> Also another thing, did you guys notice how despite the different type of missiles, both angle and vertical launched including different models (ranges/speeds/motors). The missiles arrived nearly simultaneously? A horizontal launched Dezful and vertical launched Emad reached within seconds of each other....very interesting. I wonder how they managed to do that. If the missiles trickled in slowly with minutes apart, it would make it easier to defend but they all arrived almost at the same time.
> 
> I could be mistaken, and the Emad Qiam vertical launched missiles were never fired to that target, and instead went somewhere else. @skyshadow counted 12 warheads, while only 8 of them were angle launched based on the IMA media video. Which means the other 4 warheads, must've come from the Emad/Qiam(?)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1474705865009680385


it seems big boys were launched at different target in ocean and not on land, to me it seems Fateh missiles were warning to Israeli and Sejill and Emad were a warning to US navy

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## skyshadow



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476923134322388999

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## Shawnee

@PeeD 

Possibilities of providing Endo-atmospheric steering fins to Hamas, sir?


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## PeeD

Shawnee said:


> @PeeD
> 
> Possibilities of providing Endo-atmospheric steering fins to Hamas, sir?



Certainly in the form of upgrade kits, such as guided Nazeat or Fajr-5

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477961097063895040

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477921097219809280

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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478418837146112013

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## sha ah

The C-RAM system could easily be overwhelmed by saturating the airspace. An adversary could launch several kamikaze drones at the C-RAM from multiple directions at the exact same time. Once the CWIS is taken out, the base would basically be a sitting duck. 

This is not the first time that the C-RAM has shot down hostile targets in the last few months. Either someone wants to test out the American bases defensive capabilities or they were just hoping that one might get through ? It's also possible that they wanted to give the Americans something to think about ? As a warning perhaps ?

I wonder how this would have performed against Iran's ballistic missile attack last year on the Al Asad base ? What about missiles with multiple re-entry warheads ? I also wonder how the C-RAM compares to the Iranian Kamand CIWS for the navy ?



Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478418837146112013

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## Iranitaakharin

sha ah said:


> I wonder how this would have performed against Iran's ballistic missile attack last year on the Al Asad base ? What about missiles with multiple re-entry warheads ? I also wonder how the C-RAM compares to the Iranian Kamand CIWS for the navy ?



C-RAM isn't intended for that. Counter-Rocket, Artillery, Mortar.

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447734676043489283








This Is Our Best Look Yet At North Korea's Hypersonic Missile


The Hwasong-8 missile was just one of North Korea's most advanced weapons on display at a glitzy Kim Jong Un-hosted event.




www.thedrive.com













North Korea claims another hypersonic missile test


North Korea has said it successfully launched a hypersonic munition in a recent test, claiming the projectile struck a target hundreds of miles away. Washington has denounced the move as “destabilizing.”




www.rt.com


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## Muhammed45

NK tested a hypersonic missile, claimed to fly for 700 KM and hit the target with pin point accuracy. 

Liquid fuel? It doesn't seem cost effective to me

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479347875075272707


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## yugocrosrb95

Muhammed45 said:


> NK tested a hypersonic missile, claimed to fly for 700 KM and hit the target with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Liquid fuel? It doesn't seem cost effective to me
> View attachment 806245


It depends on their requirements, liquid fuel has own advantages as does solid fuel while this missile was also used to test ampoulization of fuel and oxidizer which is at bare minimum fuel and oxidizer tanks fueled inside factory then sealed before being inserted inside missile casing thus it has some qualities of solid fuel by being pre-fueled and ready on short notice.

This missile has half the fuel load of Hwasong-12 and payload being heavier than that of Hwasong-12 due to having HGV. For example if it had same payload as Hwasong-7 then it would have comparable range while consuming 2 tons less of propellants. Acceleration is faster than HS-12, but has half the fuel hence much shorter range, hence lower velocity and what not.

It doesn't impact specific propellant consumption efficiency unlike if one was to shorten a solid fuel rocket.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479906371885744130

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## Sineva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478773558230847489

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479495767681294354

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## Sineva

Good pics of the ayn alasad strike showing the before,after and several days later




*High Resolution Pic: 6631x4000*
The americans didnt exactly fvck around when it came to cleaning up all of the mess...🎖🎖🎖

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480608542830870530

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480934237419315205


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## yugocrosrb95

Muhammed45 said:


> NK tested a hypersonic missile, claimed to fly for 700 KM and hit the target with pin point accuracy.
> 
> Liquid fuel? It doesn't seem cost effective to me
> View attachment 806245




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481010890669445123


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## sha ah

Iran already has missiles whose warheads travel at hypersonic speeds during re-entry, such as the Sejjil for example. Iran also has MaRV missiles such as Emad. However hypersonic cruise missiles and glide vehicles are essential weapons for the future.

No doubt Iran is investing in and conducting research on this vital technology. North Korea is pretty impoverished and has limited resources at its disposal. Considering the prohibitive cost of developing such weapons systems, theres a good chance that North Korea is closely cooperating with Iran to develop advanced hypersonic missiles and glide vehicles. I would not be surprised if we see them in Iran in the near future.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481024386127777792


yugocrosrb95 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481010890669445123

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## K210

Iranian missile tech is probably 10-15 years behind North Korea


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## aryobarzan

K210 said:


> Iranian missile tech is probably 10-15 years behind North Korea


What happened to your "Australian" flags..Today you are "North Korean" flags..but we all know where you really from!!..Fake user..Fake info Fake Flags..Fake all over ..get the F*ck out of this forum.

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## K210

aryobarzan said:


> What happened to your "Australian" flags..Today you are "North Korean" flags..but we all know where you really from!!..Fake user..Fake info Fake Flags..Fake all over ..get the F*ck out of this forum.


 
Why does my nationality matter so much to you? 

I am really north korean i promise. All hail our glorious supreme leader Kim Jong Un!

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## Mr Iran Eye

K210 said:


> Iranian missile tech is probably 10-15 years behind North Korea


Troll this is completely wrong, Iran is more advanced. This forum keeps getting more and more pathetic. Even the oldest member slips in analysis quality. It's sad, it's downfall of this forum

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481280404757827587

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480789456215068672

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1157117972764385282


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## yavar



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## Messerschmitt



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481738273198383108@PeeD I would really appreciate if you could tell us how this new Raafe motor engine could enable the IRGC-ASF to develop a ~2000 km range solid-fuel MRBM with maximized payload capacity (warhead). How heavy could the warhead roughly be while still keeping the maximum range 'capped' at 2000 km?

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## PeeD

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481738273198383108@PeeD I would really appreciate if you could tell us how this new Raafe motor engine could enable the IRGC-ASF to develop a ~2000 km range solid-fuel MRBM with maximized payload capacity (warhead). How heavy could the warhead roughly be while still keeping the maximum range 'capped' at 2000 km?



If you want to MIRV it, then maybe 2000kg to Israel

Such an advanced motor costs more

Hence you better use its massive performance extra on something you otherwise need a huge system, like liquid North Korean ICBMs.

So use it for ICBM and the costs are justified.

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## Oldman1

sha ah said:


> The C-RAM system could easily be overwhelmed by saturating the airspace. An adversary could launch several kamikaze drones at the C-RAM from multiple directions at the exact same time. Once the CWIS is taken out, the base would basically be a sitting duck.
> 
> This is not the first time that the C-RAM has shot down hostile targets in the last few months. Either someone wants to test out the American bases defensive capabilities or they were just hoping that one might get through ? It's also possible that they wanted to give the Americans something to think about ? As a warning perhaps ?
> 
> I wonder how this would have performed against Iran's ballistic missile attack last year on the Al Asad base ? What about missiles with multiple re-entry warheads ? I also wonder how the C-RAM compares to the Iranian Kamand CIWS for the navy ?



Any system can be overwhelmed, even Iran's air defense will be overwhelmed. But as another poster mentioned its not meant for ballistic missile attacks, thats where the Patriot system is for. What's surprising so far is Iran have yet to provide ballistic missile weaponry to the Iran backed militias like they did in Yemen to help attack the U.S. Embassy. Also this is not a warning, they want to attack the Green Zone, have done so for many years. Hence why you have CRAMs all over the place.


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## raptor22

PeeD said:


> If you want to MIRV it, then maybe 2000kg to Israel
> 
> Such an advanced motor costs more
> 
> Hence you better use its massive performance extra on something you otherwise need a huge system, like liquid North Korean ICBMs.
> 
> So use it for ICBM and the costs are justified.


is it a train?

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## Sineva

raptor22 said:


> is it a train?
> View attachment 808516
> View attachment 808517


I personally used to think that,however the type of sliding roof shown makes it a lot less likely [imho].
This actually reminds me a lot more of the first us atlas icbm launchers known as the "coffin type".These were above ground garage type structures with a sliding roof with the missile in a horizontal position,the roof would be retracted and the missile elevated and fired.
I wouldnt be surprised if this was developed around the same time as the very first experimental silos.These look to have been early attempts at having a part of the missile force able to be placed on a permanent alert level with the ability to be fired at,or very close to,the touch of a button.

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## Dariush the Great

Oldman1 said:


> Any system can be overwhelmed, even Iran's air defense will be overwhelmed. But as another poster mentioned its not meant for ballistic missile attacks, thats where the Patriot system is for. What's surprising so far is Iran have yet to provide ballistic missile weaponry to the Iran backed militias like they did in Yemen to help attack the U.S. Embassy. Also this is not a warning, they want to attack the Green Zone, have done so for many years. Hence why you have CRAMs all over the place.


The Shia militias are not reckless. You think it is hard to artillery the f out of the US embassy? Easy as drinking water. They are just playing with the US and keep sending them messages through these symbolic attacks. They have far more powerful weapons than these little katyusha rockets.


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## jauk

Dariush the Great said:


> The Shia militias are not reckless. You think it is hard to artillery the f out of the US embassy? Easy as drinking water. They are just playing with the US and keep sending them messages through these symbolic attacks. They have far more powerful weapons than these little katyusha rockets.


It's a classic frog in boiling water strategy. Slow and painfully effective.

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481672383991889921

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## PeeD

raptor22 said:


> is it a train?
> View attachment 808516
> View attachment 808517



no

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## 925boy

yugocrosrb95 said:


> 925boy is in full meltdown mode...
> 
> North Korea can't do it because he says so, he asks about evidence while providing nothing for own assertion that China and or Russia helped North Korea.
> 
> 925boy should not assume that HGV that North Korea has shown as being as advanced as Chinese or Russian also Iran basically has HGV with those finned warheads.
> 
> Iranians only need to program it to do a pull up maneuver to extend the range a bit or do change ballistic trajectory to be straight up top attack.
> 
> North Korea blasted their reentry vehicle heat shield with 40 ton force rocket engine and it survived, rocket engines have exhaust temperature of 3200 celsius.
> 
> That is twice the melting point of titanium or reentry speed of ICBM warhead and for that reason they have material to build airframe of their HGV.
> 
> France with population comparable to Iran is preparing to conduct first test of their HGV and they launched that program 3 years ago.
> 
> Russian Avangard is an ICBM HGV while China had their DF-17 MRMB/IRBM enter service, North Korea is just now doing first steps for MRBM/IRBM HGV.


why did US just sanction a Russian entity for helping NK with the recent HGV test? dont say anything is what it is because i said it, thats an excuse, i said NK cant produce HGV BECAUSE there is no chance it could develop something like tha given its level of development, level of national science and they are broke, PERIOD. North Korea is China's orphan state. 

Regarding NK's HGV - Explain HOW they developed it ( no assumptions), stop telling us a long *** story with no real facts or inferences, just your opinions and wishes reworded as "unique science" YOU AINT NO PATARAMESH! (you wish you were though). this sanctioning of a Russian entity suggests i am correct Russia provided it to NK ,and i know they did, because how come other more advanced militaries like ISrael, Germany, US, UK, France CANT produce an HGV but North Korea that is sanctioned off from the world and relies for China for everything will just show up with this new tech? the point her eis that you are naive as hell you rant as if your rants will prove your point, they dont, they only confirm you are stubborn and hate hearing other ideas.

So far, i am correct - Russia OR and China provides NK with its HGV tech.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481986219668086791

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482007540472893440

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## yugocrosrb95

925boy said:


> why did US just sanction a Russian entity for helping NK with the recent HGV test? dont say anything is what it is because i said it, thats an excuse, i said NK cant produce HGV BECAUSE there is no chance it could develop something like tha given its level of development, level of national science and they are broke, PERIOD. North Korea is China's orphan state.
> 
> Regarding NK's HGV - Explain HOW they developed it ( no assumptions), stop telling us a long *** story with no real facts or inferences, just your opinions and wishes reworded as "unique science" YOU AINT NO PATARAMESH! (you wish you were though). this sanctioning of a Russian entity suggests i am correct Russia provided it to NK ,and i know they did, because how come other more advanced militaries like ISrael, Germany, US, UK, France CANT produce an HGV but North Korea that is sanctioned off from the world and relies for China for everything will just show up with this new tech? the point her eis that you are naive as hell you rant as if your rants will prove your point, they dont, they only confirm you are stubborn and hate hearing other ideas.
> 
> So far, i am correct - Russia OR and China provides NK with its HGV tech.


So what that I am not Pataramesh, I am just fine with each other following on Twitter and having discussions.






Among others...















All you do is demonstrate ignorance 925boy as that didn't come out of nowhere what you assert nor you have any capability to connect the dots, pieces of information.

North Korea tested first MARV in 2017.

Then it tested quasi ballistic missiles in 2019 that did pull up maneuver in order to extended range, hence entire missile basically glided.

They experimented, tested, gained experience and then iterate upon it.

That is not intercontinental HGV and not even intermediate range.

But yea, keep projecting yourself onto me like a clown would do.

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## yavar

I think yesterdays images has clearly demonstrated who has more advance ICBM delivery system technology , (Islamic Republic or North Korea )

but the nonsense still continue

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## Dariush the Great

yavar said:


> I think yesterdays images has clearly demonstrated who has more advance ICBM delivery system technology , (Islamic Republic or North Korea )
> 
> but the nonsense still continue


Khamenei should revoke his nonsense ban on missile range and let the scientists do their job.

Here is he on tape even admitting that he stopped the scientists increasing the range (read also ICBM development) 

What kind of tarsoo rahbar will put such a self owning ban? Even admitting that ''there are people who criticize me about this''. 





__





ویدیو / مقام معظم رهبری: از ساخت موشک با برد بیش از ۲۰۰۰ کیلومتر جلوگیری کردم


قسمت سوم مستند «غیر رسمی» که روایتی است از دیدارهای پنجشنبه‌ای فعالان حوزه‌ علم و فناوری با مقام معظم رهبری، از صداوسیما پخش شد. رهبر معظم انقلاب در بخشی از این مستند به نکته‌ای درباره توان موشکی ایران اشاره کردند که برای نخستین بار در «غیر رسمی» از آن رونمایی شد. رهبر معظم انقلاب گفتند: از...




www.entekhab.ir


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## 925boy

yugocrosrb95 said:


> All you do is demonstrate ignorance 925boy as that didn't come out of nowhere what you assert nor you have any capability to connect the dots, pieces of information.
> 
> North Korea tested first MARV in 2017.
> 
> Then it tested quasi ballistic missiles in 2019 that did pull up maneuver in order to extended range, hence entire missile basically glided.
> 
> They experimented, tested, gained experience and then iterate upon it.
> 
> That is not intercontinental HGV and not even intermediate range.
> 
> But yea, keep projecting yourself onto me like a clown would do.


MARV is not HGV, they are very different, because Iran has MARV, but cant "make" the HGV yet, so once again, PROVE N KOREA MADE HGV on its own. Russia is the only country that made its own HGV FOR A FACT...China's HGV is probably Russia's too, but North Korea's HGV is 100% possible because of Russia- you are probably a N Korea fan boy whose blind to logic or reality, but i'm not. That kingdom is not capable of making its own HGV, i still stand by that. You're implying that HGV is new generation of MARV? then if it was , and it wasnt that different from MARV< Iran would have it already, afterall, IRan is ahead of N Korea in missile technology, ONE ON ONE that is...but Russia came in and helped N Korea, hence their new HGV.

you still havent proven crap.

Here is US further accusing Russia:





FOr you to be actually right, the above has to be a lie, and its not.

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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> Khamenei should revoke his nonsense ban on missile range and let the scientists do their job.
> 
> Here is he on tape even admitting that he stopped the scientists increasing the range (read also ICBM development)
> 
> What kind of tarsoo rahbar will put such a self owning ban? Even admitting that ''there are people who criticize me about this''.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ویدیو / مقام معظم رهبری: از ساخت موشک با برد بیش از ۲۰۰۰ کیلومتر جلوگیری کردم
> 
> 
> قسمت سوم مستند «غیر رسمی» که روایتی است از دیدارهای پنجشنبه‌ای فعالان حوزه‌ علم و فناوری با مقام معظم رهبری، از صداوسیما پخش شد. رهبر معظم انقلاب در بخشی از این مستند به نکته‌ای درباره توان موشکی ایران اشاره کردند که برای نخستین بار در «غیر رسمی» از آن رونمایی شد. رهبر معظم انقلاب گفتند: از...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.entekhab.ir



In reality the exact opposite happens to be the case. If the Leadership was "scared", it would nervously opt to rush towards manufacturing nuclear weapons in order to sanctuarize itself from the threat of US-led "regime change".

Also, it would be disingenuous by definition to suggest that the Supreme Leader is lacking bravery when under his auspices, Iran has been one of a tiny handful of countries on planet Earth to actually dare challenge the zio-American empire, resist the latter's yoke in order to safeguard national sovereignty, and engage in things such as arming the Palestinian Resistance etc, which again no head of a state other than seyyed Khamenei (h.A.) is mustering enough courage to authorize.

Not to mention how the cowardly terrorist attack against him in the 1980's, which nearly took his life and caused him to lose a limb, is ample enough proof that grand ayatollah Khamenei does not fear death in pursuit of his principled goals.

Furthermore, the current limit on the ballistic missile range is subject to potential revision, depending on how the geopolitical situation evolves. The Leader never declared this to be a non-negotiable cap that has to be observed ad vitam aeternam and regardless of circumstances. Which by itself represents yet another brilliant policy tool seyyed Khamenei, in his strategic wisdom, endowed Islamic Iran with.

Geopolitics work in completely different ways from physics or other experimental sciences, and the Islamic Revolution's intrepid Leader has an outstanding understanding thereof. In contexts such as these, rational players do not initiate escalation. In other terms, missile range ought to be increased only under the condition that one's opponents proceed with some sort of a drastic escalation, and/or if deterrence is no longer ensured without an enhanced BM range. Incidentally, the prospect of a range increase getting green lighted acts itself as a deterrent against aggressive moves by the US and allies.

The same applies for the acquisition of nuclear weapons: as long as Iran's existing, non-nuclear means of deterrence are guaranteed to preclude all out military aggression by the enemy, then it is more rational to refrain from developing nukes. Even North Korea did not decide to produce nuclear weapons on a whim - they only did so because:

a) The US regime under Bush jr. decided to put an end to the Clinton administration's attempts at normalization with Pyongyang, placing the DPRK on its so-called "axis of evil" along with Iran and Iraq, while invading the latter in 2003.

b) More importantly, the DPRK lacks any of the decisive factors of deterrence which Iran enjoys, such as a geographic location enabling her to choke off the main artery of global energy exports at the Strait of Hormoz, in addition to the ability to credibly target the zionist regime, whose security is paramount to the entire political establishment in the US.

In the absence of these two points, North Korea too would have been unlikely to go for nukes.

And let's not fool ourselves into believing that whatever research the IRGC has been conducting in the ballistic missile realm so far, whatever technology it demonstrated including very recent unveilings of key dual use components which could be incorporated into functional ICBM's at a moment's notice, was achieved against the wish and explicit orders of the Supreme Leader in person. Likewise, when the 2000 km limit was in fact exceeded by Iran several years ago with the introduction of the Khorramshahr missile - albeit with plausible deniability due to variable warhead weight, that too happened because Supreme Leader Khamenei decided so and ordered it to happen. No more and no less.

There's no disagreement at all between Leadership and Sepah, both are fulfilling their tasks in a perfectly coordinated manner. There is absolute complicity between the two institutions on Iran's missile program (and on everything else), and they're on the same line.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> In reality the exact opposite happens to be the case. If the Leadership was "scared", it would nervously opt to rush towards manufacturing nuclear weapons in order to sanctuarize itself from the threat of US-led "regime change".
> 
> Also, it would be disingenuous by definition to suggest that the Supreme Leader is lacking bravery when under his auspices, Iran has been one of a tiny handful of countries on planet Earth to actually dare challenge the zio-American empire, resist the latter's yoke in order to safeguard national sovereignty, and engage in things such as arming the Palestinian Resistance etc, which again no head of a state other than seyyed Khamenei (h.A.) is mustering enough courage to authorize.
> 
> Not to mention how the cowardly terrorist attack against him in the 1980's, which nearly took his life and caused him to lose a limb, is ample enough proof that grand ayatollah Khamenei does not fear death in pursuit of his principled goals.
> 
> Furthermore, the current limit on the ballistic missile range is subject to potential revision, depending on how the geopolitical situation evolves. The Leader never declared this to be a non-negotiable limit that has to be observed ad vitam aeternam and regardless of circumstances. Which by itself represents yet another brilliant policy tool seyyed Khamenei, in his strategic wisdom, endowed Islamic Iran with.
> 
> Geopolitics work in completely different ways from physics or other experimental sciences, and the Islamic Revolution's intrepid Leader has an outstanding understanding thereof. In contexts such as these, rational players do not initiate escalation. In other terms, missile range ought to be increased only under the condition that one's opponents proceed with some sort of a drastic escalation, and/or if deterrence is no longer ensured without an enhanced BM range. Incidentally, the prospect of a range increase getting green lighted acts itself as a deterrent against aggressive moves by the US and allies.
> 
> The same applies for the acquisition of nuclear weapons: as long as Iran's existing, non-nuclear means of deterrence are guaranteed to preclude all out military aggression by the enemy, then it is more rational to refrain from developing nukes. Even North Korea did not decide to produce nuclear weapons on a whim - they only did so because:
> 
> a) The US regime under Bush jr. decided to put an end to the Clinton administration's attempts at normalization with Pyongyang, placing the DPRK on its so-called "axis of evil" along with Iran and Iraq, while invading the latter in 2003.
> 
> b) More importantly, the DPRK lacks any of the decisive factors of deterrence which Iran enjoys, such as a geographic location enabling her to choke off the main artery of global energy exports at the Strait of Hormoz, in addition to the ability to credibly target the zionist regime, whose security is paramount to the entire political establishment in the US.
> 
> In the absence of these two points, North Korea would have been unlikely to go for nukes as well.
> 
> And let's not fool ourselves into believing that whatever research the IRGC has been conducting in the ballistic missile realm so far, whatever technology it demonstrated including very recent unveilings of key dual use components which could be incorporated into functional ICBM's at a moment's notice, was achieved against the wish and explicit orders of the Supreme Leader in person. Likewise, when the 2000 km limit was in fact exceeded by Iran several years ago with the introduction of the Khorramshahr missile - albeit with plausible deniability due to variable warhead weight, that too happened because Supreme Leader Khamenei decided so and ordered it to happen. No more and no less.
> 
> There's no disagreement at all between Leadership and Sepah, both are fulfilling their tasks in a perfectly coordinated manner. There is absolute complicity between the two institutions on Iran's missile program (and on everything else), and they're on the same line.


Dear, you are a fervent supporter of the great Khamenei. Thus you can not see the fault of his actions, there is always positivity in your point of view. So i am afraid we can not hold a honest discussion on his decisions.

Don't get me wrong, i like Khamenei, he is charismatic and is wise but some of his actions are too cautious and hesitant. Like the video i posted where he admits that he stopped the work of our scientists regarding ICBM's. There is definitely some fear factor involved - Iran should have tested its first ICBM and nukes back in the 2000's with all the brilliant minds we have. Only political decisions by him is stopping us from full potential.

And the leadership is not ''scared''. The leadership also consists of high ranking influential IRGC leaders, all of whom urge Khamenei to go full speed with the military developments. In the video i posted he himself admits that our scientists, commanders etc criticize him for his decisions.


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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> Dear, you are a fervent supporter of the great Khamenei. Thus you can not see the fault of his actions, there is always positivity in your point of view. So i am afraid we can not hold a honest discussion on his decisions.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, i like Khamenei, he is charismatic and is wise but some of his actions are too cautious and hesitant. Like the video i posted where he admits that he stopped the work of our scientists regarding ICBM's. There is definitely some fear factor involved - Iran should have tested its first ICBM and nukes back in the 2000's with all the brilliant minds we have. Only political decisions by him is stopping us from full potential.



I addressed the contention in detail. And explained why this notion that fear is guiding the decisions of the Iranian Leadership is a contradiction in terms.

Feeling of insecurity would push Iran towards hurried ICBM and nuclear weapons development. Instead, it is because of the Iranian Leadership's strong confidence in the prowess of the country's non-nuclear arsenal and doctrine that no such decision to move towards military nuclearization has been made - it simply isn't a necessity considering the goal it would be supposed to serve, and moreover it would initiative escalation, something even North Korea never resorted to.

However, it was also seen as necessary to acquire latent nuclear break out capability. So that in case the strategic equation changes to Iran's detriment and that for whatever reason, non-nuclear deterrence can no longer be credibly ensured, Iran can then opt for nuclear deterrence.

And with every passing day that Iran spends in security, the highest level strategic decisions of the Leadership are proven correct.

Furthermore, in case of fear, Iran would submit to the US empire in the first place. Not engage in anti-imperial Resistance, something which only a handful of states are daring enough to do.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> I addressed your contention in detail. And explained, point by point, why any talk of fear is simply a contradiction in terms.
> 
> Fear would push Iran towards ICBM and nuclear weapons development. Instead, it is because of the Iranian Leadership's huge confidence in the country's non-nuclear arsenal and doctrine that no such decision to move towards military nuclearization was taken - they simply aren't necessary considering the goal they would be supposed to serve, and they would trigger counter-escalation, that's all.
> 
> Furthermore, in case of fear, Iran would submit to the US empire. Not engage in anti-imperial Resistance, something that only a handful of states are intrepid enough to do.


The opposite. Fear of more sanctions, Gadaffi-style bombing of the person himself and his family, weakened IRGC, assassinations etc are the main factor for respecting the ''red line'' the West put in front him.

If you have no fear, you would not give a crap about what others think and go full steam ahead with your plans. Playing horse and pony show with a few KM increase or decrease, 1 year - 1 day ''break out'' time are all laughable and nonsense in terms of proper strategy and planning for a country with such a high prestige as Iran.


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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> The opposite. Fear of more sanctions,



What other sanctions would these be? Iran is sanctioned to the extreme already. And Iran's policy has shown that the prospect of sanctions have never prevented her from pursuing her strategic objectives.



> Gadaffi-style bombing of the person himself and his family,



The US is able to bomb the Supreme Leader of Iran and his family in a cost-effective manner as with Gaddafi, but has refrained from doing so? Really, they wouldn't hesitate a second if they thought they could. Reality is that Gaddafi - who never challenged the US and zionists to the extent that Iran has done, did not possess Iran's deterrence power. Which in turn explains why Washington is not replicating a similar approach with Iran.

And see, here's another major issue with your argument: if getting nukes will not even protect Iran from having its Leader assassinated, as you are suggesting, then what's their point? What prestige do they grant their owner? In reality, even without Iranian nukes, Washington will not deem such an act as affordable enough, let alone if Iran went for nukes on top of it.

Basically, you're claiming Iran is not building nuclear bombs because if she did, the Supreme Leader would get assassinated by the US... In other words, you're suggesting that nukes are completely useless, since they wouldn't even prevent the enemy from eliminating the head of the state in the hypothesis you're putting forward.



> weakened IRGC, assassinations etc are the main factor for respecting the ''red line'' the West put in front him.



If an IRGC armed with nuclear weapons would get weakened, you'd agree that nukes do not necessarily increase military power, I would assume.

The west's red line is Iran having nuclear break out capability. Which Iran has achieved to preserve. In fact, in the early 2000's the west's red line used to be Iran having any indigenous nuclear program.



> If you have no fear, you would not give a crap about what others think and go full steam ahead with your plans.



You are assuming Iran sought to develop nuclear weapons. But Iran has achieved similar deterrence without them.



> Playing horse and pony show with a few KM increase or decrease, 1 year - 1 day ''break out'' time are all laughable and nonsense in terms of proper strategy and planning for a country with such a high prestige as Iran.



Observable facts: Iran has ensured her security in the face of a full fledged "regime change" policy by the global superpower, read policy to dismantle and balkanize the Iranian nation-state, has done so without nukes, and keeps opposing zio-American interests across the board. Personally, I don't find that to be a laughable performance. No other country under comparable circumstances has even come close.


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## yugocrosrb95

925boy said:


> MARV is not HGV, they are very different, because Iran has MARV, but cant "make" the HGV yet, so once again, PROVE N KOREA MADE HGV on its own. Russia is the only country that made its own HGV FOR A FACT...China's HGV is probably Russia's too, but North Korea's HGV is 100% possible because of Russia- you are probably a N Korea fan boy whose blind to logic or reality, but i'm not. That kingdom is not capable of making its own HGV, i still stand by that. You're implying that HGV is new generation of MARV? then if it was , and it wasnt that different from MARV< Iran would have it already, afterall, IRan is ahead of N Korea in missile technology, ONE ON ONE that is...but Russia came in and helped N Korea, hence their new HGV.
> 
> you still havent proven crap.
> 
> Here is US further accusing Russia:
> View attachment 808617
> 
> 
> FOr you to be actually right, the above has to be a lie, and its not.


All you do is demonstrate that you are uneducated on the subject and don't know the difference.

Iranian MARV during their flight at one point exit Earth atmosphere, are you going to lie and say that North Korean HGV that you call MARV goes beyond Karman line?

You say it isn't yet if you were informed about subject, if you knew that it never went beyond Karman line.

Also then i guess this isn't HGV.









Army Shows First-Ever Footage Of New Hypersonic Missile In Flight And Impacting


The Army and Navy are jointly developing the weapon, which is set to be both services' first-ever operational hypersonic missile.




www.thedrive.com













Navy Wants Triple-Packed Hypersonic Missile Modules On Its Stealthy Zumwalt Destroyers


The modules are too large for the ship's existing vertical launch cells, so they would likely take the place of its all but abandoned deck guns.




www.thedrive.com


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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> The US is able to bomb the Supreme Leader of Iran and his family in a cost-effective manner as with Gaddafi, but has refrained from doing so? Really, they wouldn't hesitate a second if they thought they could. Reality is that Gaddafi - who never challenged the US and zionists to the extent that Iran has done, did not possess Iran's deterrence power. Which in turn explains why Washington is not replicating a similar approach with Iran.


Remember you guys said the same thing about General Soleimani? 
Fortunately, Khamenei never travels outside of Iran. But you should never underestimate their stupidity.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> What other sanctions would that be? Iran is sanctioned to the extreme already. And Iran's policy has shown that the prospect of sanctions have never prevented her from pursuing her strategic objectives.


That our planes or officials wouldn't even be able to visit neighboring countries then. Going extremely tough on China for not buying any more oil etc are several points i can immediately think of ''sanction toughening



SalarHaqq said:


> The US is able to bomb the Supreme Leader of Iran and his family in a cost-effective manner as with Gaddafi, but has refrained from doing so? It wouldn't hesitate a second if it thought it could. Reality is that Gaddafi did not possess Iran's deterrence power. Which in turn explains why Washington is not replicating a similar approach with Iran.


US has refrained from doing so because the supreme leader respects the red lines and do not crosses them.



SalarHaqq said:


> I don't get it - an IRGC armed with nuclear weapons would be weakened? So you agree that nukes do not necessarily increase military power, I would assume.


 I should have elaborated on this. In a vast bombing campaign, the IRGC would get weakened.




SalarHaqq said:


> The west's red line is Iran having nuclear break out capability. Which Iran has achieved to preserve. In fact, in the early 2000's the west's red line used to be Iran having any indigenous nuclear program.


 Not true. Wests absolute red line is Iran having nuclear weapons. But that red line would also become meaningless then, so they come up with a few jokes like the JCPOA. Btw, as we speak, our negotiators are still in Vienna, with full authorization of rahbar, discussing things like installing cameras or giving more acces to CIA and Mossad spies for ''inspection''.



SalarHaqq said:


> You are assuming Iran sought to develop nuclear weapons, which is incorrect.


Where did i assume that? I am on the record saying that the only ones want to see Iran without these weapons are the Americans, Zionists and other enemies of Iran. And unfortunately rahbar is agreeing with them.



SalarHaqq said:


> Because Iran has achieved the similar deterrence without them.


I agree, but not by much.



SalarHaqq said:


> Observable facts go against this assessment. Iran has ensured her security in the face of a full fledged "regime change" policy by the global superpower, read policy to dismantle and balkanize the Iranian nation-state, has done so without nukes, and keeps opposing zio-American interests across the board. Personally, I don't know what's laughable about that. No other country under comparable circumstances has even come close.


 We are on the same page re: enslaving and balkanization. That is the wet dream of Iran's enemies, but we should not follow a policy of caution, restraint and all that nonsense when Iran is facing, according to yourself, a ''full fledged regime change policy''. If their gloves are off, why should ours remain on?


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## Oldman1

Dariush the Great said:


> The Shia militias are not reckless. You think it is hard to artillery the f out of the US embassy? Easy as drinking water. They are just playing with the US and keep sending them messages through these symbolic attacks. They have far more powerful weapons than these little katyusha rockets.



They are not playing, their goal is to get the Americans out of Iraq under the orders of Iran since that is their goal in the first place. They don't wait 20 years. They want them out like yesterday.


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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481946808989503496


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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> That our planes or officials wouldn't even be able to visit neighboring countries then. Going extremely tough on China for not buying any more oil etc are several points i can immediately think of ''sanction toughening



This not something that would deter Iran from taking any decisions deemed unavoidable for her survival or for the achievement of her strategic goals.



> US has refrained from doing so because the supreme leader respects the red lines and do not crosses them.



The US has refrained because it cannot do such a thing in a cost effective manner. Libya's deterrence power in the 1980's versus Iran's today are literally worlds apart.

The essential red line for the zio-American empire is Iran's continued existence as a nation-state. They do not tolerate Iran's survival, let alone the Islamic Republic. The Supreme Leader has been stomping on those red lines ever since he is in charge, and there's nothing Washington can do about it.



> I should have elaborated on this. In a vast bombing campaign, the IRGC would get weakened.



In that case your argument is self-contradicting, because nuclear weapons are supposed to deter vast bombing campaigns, not encourage them. And in turn, it would then not make sense to lament Iran's choice.



> Not true. Wests absolute red line is Iran having nuclear weapons.



The west's red line is Iran existing. Much, much more so than Iraq, Libya, and all the other nations they destroyed. Difference however is that in Iran's case they are incapable of reaching their goals thanks to the Islamic Republic's sound decision making, which has led to effective deterrence.



> But that red line would also become meaningless then, so they come up with a few jokes like the JCPOA. Btw, as we speak, our negotiators are still in Vienna, with full authorization of rahbar, discussing things like installing cameras or giving more acces to CIA and Mossad spies for ''inspection''.



It's a rational strategy. North Korea didn't act differently either.

Fact is that none of these negotiations are going to deprive Iran of her deterrence stemming from a fully indigenized nuclear infrastructure as well as from her mastery of nuclear technology, nor will she be deprived of civilian applications of nuclear science. Rahbar has made sure of that. And that's all which really counts.



> Where did i assume that? I am on the record saying that the only ones want to see Iran without these weapons are the Americans, Zionists and other enemies of Iran. And unfortunately rahbar is agreeing with them.



You claim Iran not going ahead with nuclear weapons acquisition is because of fear for repercussions. But that isn't the reason. Iran does so because she can deter the enemy just fine without actually building any nukes, and because building them would imply initiating a geopolitical escalation. Proof is before our eyes.

Secondly, there's a fundamental self-contradiction in your assumption: if nukes invite serious, detrimental repercussions in the security realm, then there's no point advocating them in the first place now, is there.

Nuclear weapons would not add anything special to Iran's defensive prowess under current circumstances. Thus they aren't necessary, so long as Iran can reap similar benefits in terms of deterrence through politically and geostrategically more cost-effective means.

If the equation changes and nukes become the only guarantee for survival - like they did for North Korea in the early 2000's, then Rahbar will be the first person to revise Iran's policy accordingly. It's all very logical.



> I agree, but not by much.
> 
> We are on the same page re: enslaving and balkanization. That is the wet dream of Iran's enemies, but we should not follow a policy of caution, restraint and all that nonsense when Iran is facing, according to yourself, a ''full fledged regime change policy''. If their gloves are off, why should ours remain on?



Because Iran has been successful in deterring them from putting into practice their malevolent plans, while at the same time avoiding to initiate an unnecessary geopolitical escalation. The hits Iran has taken from them so far do not even represent 0,0000001% of the damage they would have caused if they had their way. And Iran has dished out hits against them as well.

Even a state such as North Korea, which has a reputation for being intransigent, uncompromising and maximalist in its decisions, and which in 2003, after Bush jr.'s threats of invasion, was actually compelled to develop nukes because its strategic equation is different from Iran and because Pyongyang does not enjoy some of the major tools of deterrence at Iran's disposal (such as the geographical proximity to the zionist entity and thus the ability to inflict serious damage on the latter, knowing that Tel Aviv's security is of paramount importance to the US; such as sitting atop the Strait of Hormoz and a stone's throw away from PGCC oil installation; such as having an entire network of dedicated and loyal regional allies), would never have rushed towards obtaining nuclear arms under circumstances akin to Iran's.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> This not something that would deter Iran from taking any decisions deemed unavoidable for her survival or for the achievement of her strategic goals.


 Even the current sanctions has forced the establishment to go and negotiate. What you are describing is a fairy tale.




SalarHaqq said:


> The US has refrained because it cannot do such a thing in a cost effective manner. Libya's deterrence power in the 1980's versus Iran's today are literally worlds apart.


 US does not face existential threat from Iran. Nothing Iran has in its arsenal can threaten US survival so they do not ''fear'' to take out the Supreme leader if their absolute red lines get crossed. 
It is good to be a nationalist (i am) but we need to be also rational.




SalarHaqq said:


> The essential red line for the zio-American empire is Iran's continued existence as a nation-state. They do not tolerate Iran's survival, let alone the Islamic Republic. The Supreme Leader has been stomping on those red lines ever since he is in charge, and there's nothing Washington can do about it.


 The video i posted is a clear indication of the supreme leader respecting the red lines. 2000KM is the red line put in place by the US and Israel. Any violation of the red line is unacceptable and the rahbar is following it very clearly.




SalarHaqq said:


> In that case your argument is self-contradicting, because nuclear weapons are supposed to deter vast bombing campaigns, not encourage them. And in turn, it would then not make sense to lament Iran's choice.


 You are not getting it. An IRGC without nukes is a threat to its own survival. The level of deterrence is clearly not too high.




SalarHaqq said:


> The west's red line is Iran existing. Much, much more so than Iraq, Libya, and all the other nations they destroyed. Difference however is that in Iran's case they are incapable of reaching their goals thanks to the Islamic Republic's sound decision making, which has led to effective deterrence.


 I do not like this arrogant tone. We said the same about thing before Soleimani ''They can not do a damn thing''.




SalarHaqq said:


> It's a rational strategy. North Korea didn't act differently either..


 North Korea is a disciplined communist nation. Totally different than the lax pirhan roo shalvar sepahis we have. And they are not afraid to threaten to nuke Seoul and Washington either if their existance is threatened. 



SalarHaqq said:


> Fact is that none of these negotiations are going to deprive Iran of her deterrence stemming from a fully indigenized nuclear infrastructure as well as from her mastery of nuclear technology, nor will she be deprived of civilian applications of nuclear science. Rahbar has made sure of that. And that's all which really counts.


I don't need to pull out statements from officials of IR how we lost our accumulated Uranium or how they poured Beton into Araks heavy water reactor. There is no need for negotiations. Stop being afraid.



SalarHaqq said:


> You claim Iran not going ahead with nuclear weapons acquisition is because of fear for repercussions. But that isn't the reason. Iran does so because she can deter the enemy just fine without actually building any nukes, and because building them would imply initiating a geopolitical escalation. Proof is before our eyes.


 US brazenly and without any fear took out or most powerful commander. Where was the deterrence? Proof is right before our eyes.



SalarHaqq said:


> Secondly, there's a fundamental self-contradiction in your assumption: if nukes invite serious, detrimental repercussions in the security realm, then there's no point advocating them in the first place now, is there.


 I already explained to you. You made a wrong assumption. Nukes bring safety, NKorea example is right before your eyes. 



SalarHaqq said:


> Nuclear weapons would not add anything special to Iran's defensive prowess under current circumstances. Thus they aren't necessary, so long as Iran can reap similar benefits in terms of deterrence through politically and geostrategically more cost-effective means.


 Then you are living in a totally different world than the rest.



SalarHaqq said:


> If the equation changes and nukes become the only guarantee for survival - like they did for North Korea in the early 2000's, then Rahbar will be the first person to revise Iran's policy accordingly. It's all very logical.


 Rahbar will never violate the red line put in place by Israel and the US. Even if his person and his family gets bombed. 



SalarHaqq said:


> Because Iran has been successful in deterring them from putting into practice their malevolent plans, while at the same time avoiding to initiate an unnecessary geopolitical escalation. The hits Iran has taken from them so far do not even represent 0,0000001% of the damage they would have caused if they had their way. And Iran has dished out hits against them as well.


 You are just assuming that because they have not attacked Iranian mainland yet. But that can all change in a blink of an eye if some red lines get crossed.





SalarHaqq said:


> Even a state such as North Korea, which has a reputation for being intransigent, uncompromising and maximalist in its decisions, and which in 2003, after Bush jr.'s threats of invasion, was actually compelled to develop nukes because its strategic equation is different from Iran and because Pyongyang does not enjoy some of the major tools of deterrence at Iran's disposal (such as the geographical proximity to the zionist entity and thus the ability to inflict serious damage on the latter, knowing that Tel Aviv's security is of paramount importance to the US; such as sitting atop the Strait of Hormoz and a stone's throw away from PGCC oil installation; such as having an entire network of dedicated and loyal regional allies), would never have rushed towards obtaining nuclear arms under circumstances akin to Iran's.


 I dare to say NKorea is in a even better geographical position in terms of US sensitivity. 2 of biggest puppets of the US (Japan and Korea) are their last bastion of defence against China and Asia as a whole. If they fall it means a huge boost to Chinese and Nkorean power. The US' own survival is at stake in its competition against China. That weighs much more than a white supremacy extra outpost somewhere in Palestine.

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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> Even the current sanctions has forced the establishment to go and negotiate. What you are describing is a fairy tale.



You're entirely mistaken. Sanctions are forever. Until the downfall of the US regime. The establishment - its revolutionary core, knew this all along. And the Supreme Leader said so explicitly, insisting that he doesn't think the US can be trusted on any negotiated settlement.



> US does not face existential threat from Iran. Nothing Iran has in its arsenal can threaten US



Of course it does. The threat the US empire is facing from Iran is not related to offensive weaponry. Your appreciation of geopolitics is too narrow and focused exclusively on nominal weapons comparisons. That's not how international politics work though.

Iran is potentially an existential threat to the zio-American empire because of the model of Resistance she embodies. Because of the fact that others may come to emulate her one day. And that thus, step by step, the balance of power might evolve to the benefit of the Resistance.

Which explains their obsession for Iran.



> survival so they do not ''fear'' to take out the Supreme leader if their absolute red lines get crossed.



Of course they view such a move as not nearly cost-effective enough. It's not about "survival". It's enough to be associated, in their minds, with politically prohibitive costs. Same reason why they never dared launch military aggression against Iran.



> The video i posted is a clear indication of the supreme leader respecting the red lines.



There are no such red lines outside your imagination. Nuclear armament is subsidiary in the eyes of the US. What antagonizes them about the Islamic Republic of Iran are three things:

1) The globalist agenda entails dissolving all nation-states and religious communities into a world government. Islamic Iran is not allowing it, and inspiring others elsewhere to rise up.
2) The zionist regime does not tolerate any large nation-state in its vicinity, allied to it or not (due to the risk of something like the 1979 Islamic Revolution happening and turning partner into adversary).
3) The Islamic Republic is undermining their interests across the region and beyond.

This is the core, the source, the origin of the zio-American empire's grudge against Iran. Not nukes. You have gotten their priorities upside down. No, they can't tolerate Iran as is. There's no tacit understanding on peaceful coexistence between the two sides.

So before trying to portray the Iranian leadership as particularly insecure, please hold your horses and start by showing me another leadership on planet Earth - with a tiny handful of exceptions, which dares to challenge the empire on the three criteria enumerated above. Credit where it's due.



> 2000KM is the red line put in place by the US and Israel. Any violation of the red line is unacceptable and the rahbar is following it very clearly.



Well, now you're making things up entirely. Care to point us to when and where the US and Isra"el" told Iran that the range of her BM's ought not exceed 2000 km?

Newsflash 1: 2000 km is exactly what is needed to target the zionist entity from as far away as central Iran.

Newsflash 2: the US establishment is Isra"el"-firster by nature, and this goes for both its Republican and Democrat components. Iran being able to strike the zionist entity in a massive way has just as much of a deterrence value against military aggression by the US, as Iran possessing ICBM's to hit US mainland.



> You are not getting it. An IRGC without nukes is a threat to its own survival. The level of deterrence is clearly not too high.



You keep refusing to recognize the fundamentally self-contradicting nature of the argument you put forth, which at this point is actually quite amazing.

I'll try again: you claim Iran won't develop nukes because if she did, the IRGC would then get subjected to massive bombing by the US. Which begs the question, what the heck are nukes good for, if they can't deter massive bombing?



> I do not like this arrogant tone. We said the same about thing before Soleimani ''They can not do a damn thing''.



No, Iran never said they cannot do a thing against the person of shahid Soleimani. They're saying the US cannot do a damn thing to reach its objectives vis a vis Iran, and they're spot on.



> North Korea is a disciplined communist nation. Totally different than the lax pirhan roo shalvar sepahis we have. And they are not afraid to threaten to nuke Seoul and Washington either if their existance is threatened.



That's not a reply to what I posted about North Korea. Please stay focused.



> I don't need to pull out statements from officials of IR how we lost our accumulated Uranium or how they poured Beton into Araks heavy water reactor. There is no need for negotiations. Stop being afraid.



Because the temporary reduction in Iran's uranium stockpile and the work done at Arak deprived Iran of her latent nuclear break out capacity, or of the civilian applications of nuclear science? No, neither did such a thing. QED.



> US brazenly and without any fear took out or most powerful commander. Where was the deterrence? Proof is right before our eyes.



What did that do in terms of advancing the US regime's strategic objectives towards Iran? Nothing, and proof is before our eyes.



> I already explained to you. You made a wrong assumption. Nukes bring safety, NKorea example is right before your eyes.



You claimed otherwise by suggesting that nuclear armament would trigger a massive military assault on Iran as well as the assassination of her Leadership. You're blatantly contradicting yourself. Make up your mind please, you can't have it both ways.

Other things than nukes can bring safety as well, depending on each country's specific geopolitical profile and circumstances. Iran's example is there to prove it.



> Rahbar will never violate the red line put in place by Israel and the US. Even if his person and his family gets bombed.



There's no such imaginary red line. And it's disingenuous to make such claims about one of the few leaders on Earth who dares to Resist the zio-American empire.



> You are just assuming that because they have not attacked Iranian mainland yet. But that can all change in a blink of an eye if some red lines get crossed.



And once again, the same self-contradiction. If ignoring that "red line" you keep referring to is supposed to render Iran safer, they you can't flip flop and now contend that crossing it would lead to Iran getting attacked! I'm puzzled as to why you're not seeing this.



> I dare to say NKorea is in a even better geographical position in terms of US sensitivity. 2 of biggest puppets of the US (Japan and Korea) are their last bastion of defence against China and Asia as a whole.
> 
> If they fall it means a huge boost to Chinese and Nkorean power. The US' own survival is at stake in its competition against China. That weighs much more than a white supremacy extra outpost somewhere in Palestine.



1) Isra"el" is no US puppet. It is America's master. Huge difference.

2) North Korea never went for nukes until it thought its survival otherwise. Which is why they negotiated with the US during the Clinton presidency and agreed to freeze their nuclear program before they had any nuclear bombs. Fact.

3) South Korea and Japan have totally different strategic depth than the illegitimate occupation regime in Palestine. Look at a map. The DPRK's conventional arsenal would never have been enough to inflict traumatic, paralyzing damage on either south Korea or Japan. Iran's BM force is capable of such with regards to Isra"el".

4) The zionist entity is a settler state, south Korea and Japan are not. Isra"el"'s viability completely hinges upon its settler population continuing to uphold its belief in Tel Aviv's military invulnerability. This doesn't apply to south Korea or Japan. Zionist settlers have a home in north America and Europe, where they originate from. South Koreans and Japanese don't.

Apples and oranges.

And that's without even counting Iran's ability to disrupt global energy supplies and thereby to trigger economic meltdown, an ability North Korea lacks. Likewise, Iran's extensive network of regional allies which grant Tehran considerable escalation power in case of a military aggression by the US, again something North Korea lacks. Hence why Pyongang opted for nukes while Iran didn't so far. Else North Korea wouldn't have built them either, hence why they took the decision only after Bush junior's threats of military invasion and prior to that, were conducting negotiations and striking nuclear deals with Washington.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> You're entirely mistaken. Sanctions are forever. Until the downfall of the US regime. The establishment - its revolutionary core, knew this all along. And the Supreme Leader said so explicitly, that he does not think the US can be trusted on any negotiated settlement.


 Goodluck with that. Considering that Khamenei is literally the last substantial figure opposing the US. After he is gone (a decade or two at max) the sentiments will die down. It is all natural though, because he was incompetent to clamp down the internal and external opposition.



SalarHaqq said:


> Of course it does. The threat the US empire is facing from Iran is not related to offensive weaponry. Your appreciation of geopolitics is too narrow, and focused on on-paper weapons comparisons only. That's not how international politics work.


 Do you realize how silly you sound? Your rhetoric is from the late 70's. In today's world your arguments don't make any sense. But like i said before, this is a self inflicted wound.





SalarHaqq said:


> Iran is potentially an existential threat to the zio-American empire because of the model of Resistance that it embodies. Because of the fact that others may come to emulate her one day. And that thus, step by step, the balance of power might evolve for the benefit of the Resistance.


 You very well know that after Khamenei there will be no meaningful resistance from the IR anymore, at least not on the level of today's. Younger generation clerics are either incompetent or have no experience regarding the ''resistance'' matters.





SalarHaqq said:


> Of course they view such a move as not cost effective. It's not about "survival". It's enough to be associated, in their minds, with politically prohibitive costs. Same reason why they never dared launch military aggression against Iran.


 Do not repeat silly things. You make the opposing side tired with rhetoric. They took out Iran's most powerful commander in Iraq. It is like IR droning American defence minister Austin in Mexico. Do you know what a severe escalation an daring military move this is?



SalarHaqq said:


> There are no such red lines. Nuclear armament is completely subsidiary in the eyes of the US. What antagonizes them about the Islamic Republic of Iran are three things


 You got it upside down.
US tolerates IR for 4 decades already
US will not tolerate IR's nuke for even 1 day








SalarHaqq said:


> So before trying to portray the Iranian leadership as particularly insecure, hold your horses and start by showing me another leadership on planet Earth - with a tiny handful of exceptions, that dares to challenge the empire on the three criteria enumerated above. Credit where it's due.


 Not only insecure, but also extremely cautious and indecisive.



SalarHaqq said:


> Really? Now you're making things up entirely. Care to point us to when and where the US and Isra"el" told Iran that the range of her BM's ought not exceed 2000 km?


 I will laugh if you really think these issues need to be really made public. They are done through politics, messaging, signaling etc



SalarHaqq said:


> Newsflash 1: 2000 km is exactly what is needed to target the zionist entity from as far away as central Iran.


 Won't really destroy the Zionist establishment in occupied Palestine.




SalarHaqq said:


> Newsflash 2: the US establishment is Isra"el"-firster by nature, and this goes both for its Republican and Democrat components. Iran being able to hit the zionist entity has just as much of a deterrence value against military aggression by the US, as Iran possessing ICBM's to hit US mainland.


ICBM's are forbidden by the leader for now. So forget that for a moment.
The missiles we have currently do not threaten the rooted zionist military establishment in Palestine.





SalarHaqq said:


> You claim Iran won't develop nukes because if she did, the IRGC would get subjected to massive bombing by the US.


 No, i did not claim that, please help me to remember the exact quote i made. Perhaps you misunderstood, and you are carrying the misunderstood context further into our conversation.




SalarHaqq said:


> Which begs the question, what the heck are nukes good for then, if they can't deter massive bombing?


 They deter. Example : North Korea. Not only a massive bombing, but also targeted killing or other forms of aggression.







SalarHaqq said:


> That's not a reply to what I posted about North Korea. Please stay focused and avoid unrelated interjections.


 very much related, albeit indirectly.



SalarHaqq said:


> Because the temporary reduction in Iran's uranium stockpile and the work done at Arak deprived Iran of her latent nuclear break out capacity, or of the civilian applications of nuclear science? No, it didn't. QED.


 The fact that the regime is even talking about possible constraints on its nuclear program is a shame and treason.




SalarHaqq said:


> What did that do in terms of advancing the US regime's strategic objectives towards Iran? Nothing, and proof is before our eyes.


 They don't need another expensive war. They are choking through other ways. The key is Khameneis death. They are waiting for him to pass away. After him, it is everyone's guess and who knows what the other side has up its sleeves?




SalarHaqq said:


> You claimed otherwise by suggesting that nuclear armament would trigger a massive military assault on Iran and the assassination of her Leadership. You're contradicting yourself again. Make up your mind please, you can't have it both ways.


You are continuing your gibberish, i never said that. However, in Khameneis world view, it will result in that. But he is wrong.





SalarHaqq said:


> Other things than nukes can bring safety, depending on each country's specific geopolitical circumstances. Iran's example is there to prove it.


 Such as respecting the red lines too.





SalarHaqq said:


> There's no such imaginary red line. And it's disingenuous to make such silly claims about one of the few leaders on Earth who dares to Resist the zio-American empire.


 Imaginery is only in your head. Not anything should be printed in big letters on a newspaper for you to understand. There are silent agreements between governments on many issues. I do not have time to delve deeper into this.



SalarHaqq said:


> And once again you're contradicting yourself. If that "red line" you made up is supposed to render Iran safer, they you can't flip flop and now contend that crossing it would lead tro Iran getting attacked. Please realize your narrative is not making sense because it is self-contradicting.


 You are repeating your misunderstood point many times over. Already adressed.



SalarHaqq said:


> 1) Isra"el" is no US puppet. It is America's master. Huge difference.


 Not as easy you put it. I wish the world's issues were that simplistic, that with one sentence of yours, we could easily figure out things.




SalarHaqq said:


> 2) North Korea never went for nukes until it thought its survival otherwise. Which is why they negotiated with the US during the Clinton presidency and agreed to freeze their nuclear program before they had any nuclear bombs. Fact.


They posses nukes close to 2 decades now. Far more farsighted than the rahbar we have.


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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> Goodluck with that. Considering that Khamenei is literally the last substantial figure opposing the US.



Kindly update your information on Iran's domestic political scene, because the quoted assessment is far off.



> After he is gone (a decade or two at max) the sentiments will die down. It is all natural though, because he was incompetent to clamp down the internal and external opposition.



That's just speculation. And yes, there's a substantial revolutionary core in the Iranian establishment, which is going to take over after seyyed Khamenei.

Seyyed Khamenei successfully neutralized all enemies of the Revolution.



> Do you realize how silly you sound? Your rhetoric is from the late 70's. In today's world your arguments don't make any sense. But like i said before, this is a self inflicted wound.



Arguments, not slogans please.



> You very well know that after Khamenei there will be no meaningful resistance from the IR anymore, at least not on the level of today's. Younger generation clerics are either incompetent or have no experience regarding the ''resistance'' matters.



Well, no. Pro-Resistance sentiment among young clerics is present enough.

We have seyyed Raisi poised to succeed ayatollah Khamenei, and if you think Raisi's not enthusiastic about resisting the zio-American empire, I don't know what to say.



> You make the opposing side tired with rhetoric. They took out Iran's most powerful commander in Iraq. It is like IR droning American defence minister Austin in Mexico. Do you know what a severe escalation an daring military move this is?



Let's not dodge what really matters and let's focus on the question instead: how did the martyrdom of hajj Qassem alter the overall geopolitical balance to Iran's detriment? It didn't? Right!



> You got it upside down.
> US tolerates IR for 4 decades already
> US will not tolerate IR's nuke for even 1 day



For over four decades, the US tried everything in its power to topple the IR. And failed miserably. Nukes are subsidiary here.



> Not only insecure, but also extremely cautious and indecisive.



Courageous, intrepid, decisive are the only attributes which correctly describe Iran's Supreme Leader. One of only a handful of heads of state who dares challenge the zio-American empire head on. And with brilliant results, too.

Whereas secular nationalist forces' main achievement in Iran's modern history was to turn the country into a bona fide zionist and western vassal of the most subservient kind. Reality's reality, even if it isn't to one's liking.



> I will laugh if you really think these issues need to be really made public. They are done through politics, messaging, signaling etc



In other words, there's no evidence to back up that contention.



> Won't really destroy the Zionist establishment in occupied Palestine.



Not relevant here. The only thing that counts, is that they are viewing such strikes by Iran as a unsustainably costly from the political point of view.



> ICBM's are forbidden by the leader for now. So forget that for a moment.
> The missiles we have currently do not threaten the rooted zionist military establishment in Palestine.



Yes, they do. Which is why they are considering these missiles as an unsustainable cost to bear if they were mass-launched at Tel Aviv and Haifa. Which in turn explains why they haven't attacked Iran to date.



> No, i did not claim that, please help me to remember the exact quote i made. Perhaps you misunderstood, and you are carrying the misunderstood context further into our conversation.











> They deter. Example : North Korea. Not only a massive bombing, but also targeted killing or other forms of aggression.



If nukes deter aggression, then you can't claim that the reason why Iran has chosen not to go for nukes is because aggression would follow. One can't have it both ways.



> The fact that the regime is even talking about possible constraints on its nuclear program is a shame and treason.



No it's not, because these constraints are not going to affect Iran's break out capability. Treason is what the shah regime did, turning the country intro a zionist, Bahai, American vassal in the full sense of the term.



> They don't need another expensive war. They are choking through other ways. The key is Khameneis death. They are waiting for him to pass away. After him, it is everyone's guess and who knows what the other side has up its sleeves?



In other words, there's no counter argument to mine, other than "who knows?" type of speculation.



> You are continuing your gibberish, i never said that. However, in Khameneis world view, it will result in that. But he is wrong.



Now you switched from "the US will assassinate Khamenei's family and bomb the IRGC if Iran builds nukes" to "the US won't do any of those but the Iranian leadership thinks it will". Honestly, I'd advise to give it a break. Do you seriously believe the Iranian leadership are oblivious to the deterrent attribute of nukes, and that they need us to reveal it to them? That's an outlandish assumption, no offense.



> Such as respecting the red lines too.



Such as being able to make an aggression too costly. Which is why the US never dared to proceed with such. Despite the fact that Islamic Iran has been much, much more of a thorn in their side than Saddam's Iraq or Gaddafi's Libya ever used to be.



> Imaginery is only in your head. Not anything should be printed in big letters on a newspaper for you to understand. There are silent agreements between governments on many issues. I do not have time to delve deeper into this.



There's no such thing. Only Islamic Iran subjecting them to unsolvable dilemmas is the case. Please don't join the takfiris with their demential delusions of a "secret under-the-table alliance between Rafidha and Jews".

And I must reiterate: show me another state leadership - outside of a handful, which has dared confront the zio-American empire like the Islamic Republic of Iran has been doing. Then you can talk about "fear", "treason" and so on. But until then, this kind of rhetoric doesn't have ground to stand on.



> Not as easy you put it. I wish the world's issues were that simplistic, that with one sentence of yours, we could easily figure out things.



Even if I simplified, you have to admit that there's a massive difference. And I think people are intelligent enough to realize that when compared to the zionist lobby, the "south Korean lobby" and the "Japanese lobby" are nonexistent in the US.



> They possed nukes close to 2 decades now. Far more farsighted than the rahbar we have.



They only went for nukes after the US threatened them with invasion, and because contrary to Iran, they are lacking other decisive means of deterrence. The approach of the Iranian and Korean leaderships in this specific regard are similar and follow the same logic.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> Kindly update your information on Iran's domestic political scene, because the quoted assessment is far off.


 No need to fool anyone here. I am an Iranian myself. We know what is going on inside the country. Only way IR can get saved is through a harsh crackdown on all traitors. From Shahis to MEK. Or they will be a trouble in the future.





SalarHaqq said:


> That's nothing but speculation. And yes, there's a substantial revolutionary core in the Iranian establishment, which is going to take over after seyyed Khamenei.


 Old clerics with experience are near their deaths. In a decade or two they will all die out. Who has the charisma and experience and zeal to gel together this revolutionary IR spirit? 




SalarHaqq said:


> Seyyed Khamenei successfully neutralized all enemies of the Revolution.


 to a degree




SalarHaqq said:


> Arguments, not slogans please.


 i agree, please stick to that. as a disciple of Khamenei you should follow his advice.





SalarHaqq said:


> Errr, nope. That's some delusion or actually, wishful thinking on your part. Pro-Resistance sentiment among young clerics is present enough. Please don't make things up on the go.


Please do not become emotional. It is what it is. You think present day clerics have the zeal and charisma of the 60's and 70's clerics? Do not tell jokes please.



SalarHaqq said:


> Don't dodge what really matters and do focus on the question instead: how did the martyrdom of hajj Qassem alter the overall geopolitical balance to Iran's detriment? It didn't? Right! So please, there's no need for any saving grace rhetoric.


 I agree that it did not do much. The Shia armed groups are still well connected and organized. But i was referring to saving face.




SalarHaqq said:


> For over four decades, the US tried everything in its power to topple the IR. And failed miserably. Nukes are completely subsidiary here.


 That is because IR never really escalated to a point that warrants its removal. They are forbidden to cross some red lines. e.g. having nukes, advanced missile tech etc





SalarHaqq said:


> Courageous, intrepid, decisive are the only attributes which correctly describe Iran's Supreme Leader. One of only a handful of heads of state who dares challenge the zio-American empire head on. And with brilliant results, too.


 Geez, i know you are a diehard supporter of his but can you keep this slogan rhetoric down on a discussion forum?


SalarHaqq said:


> As opposed to secular nationalist forces, whose main achievement in Iran's modern history was to turn the country into a bona fide zionist and western vassal of the worse kind. Reality's reality, even if it isn't to one's liking.


 Unfortunately, that is true. Modern day monarchist rulers have been extremely incompetent.







SalarHaqq said:


> View attachment 808907


Don't you agree? In a vast bombing campaign by the full might of US airforce the IRGC would get weakened. What has this to do with nukes? Perhaps you misunderstood my point or i made it not clear to you.




SalarHaqq said:


> If nukes deter aggression, then you can't claim that the reason why Iran has chosen not to go for nukes is because aggression would follow. One can't have it both ways.


 Getting nukes is an Israeli/American red line. And IR will not escalate it to that point because of unforeseeable consequences. 




SalarHaqq said:


> Your reply failed to address my point.


 How so? Please elaborate.




SalarHaqq said:


> No it's not, because these constraints are not going to affect Iran's break out capability.


Why even negotiate with murderers and thugs? You should read some pieces of Shariatmadari's Keyhan newspaper.



SalarHaqq said:


> Treason is what the shah regime did, turning the country intro a zionist, Bahai, American vassal in the full sense of the term.


I agree. True puppet of the West, although he changed his tone in his last years but still too late.



SalarHaqq said:


> In other words, there's no counter argument to mine, other than "who knows?" type of speculation.


 I think we both agree that Khamenei is one of a kind. I maintain the believe that he is genuinely anti-imperialist/zionist. But once he is gone, he will be irreplaceable. Thus the other side has all the time in the world and wait it out.



SalarHaqq said:


> Now you switched from "the US will assassinate Khamenei's family and bomb the IRGC if Iran builds nukes" to "the US won't do any of those but the Iranian leadership thinks it will". Honestly, I'd advise to give it a break. Do you seriously believe the Leadership doesn't know the deterrent attribute of nukes, and that it needs you to reveal it to it? That's an outlandish assumption, no offense.


 I think you have comprehension problems and make up things now. I stand by my statement. 
Khamenei is afraid of US red lines and is indecisive and afraid of crossing those. Proof was the Soleimani saga (symbolic retaliatory strike) after Trump issued that 52 IR targets statement.





SalarHaqq said:


> Such as being able to make an aggression too costly. Which is why the US never dared to proceed with such. Despite the fact that Islamic Iran has been much, much or a thorn in their side than Saddam's Iraq or Gaddafi's Libya ever were.


 Depends on a lot of factors. Real life politics is too complicated to give one or two examples and make up your case. It does not work like that. Saddam's Iraq or Libya example talks are baseless talks without any insight.





SalarHaqq said:


> Nope, there's no such thing. Only Islamic Iran exposing them to unsolvable dilemmas. Please don't join the takfiris with their demential delusions of a "secret under the table alliance between Rafidha and Jews".


 I have to say it looks more like quiet agreements. Both sides signal in the open through their moves.



SalarHaqq said:


> And I must reiterate: show me another state leadership - outside of a handful, which has dared confront the zio-American empire like the Islamic Republic of Iran has been doing. Then you can talk about "fear", "treason" and so on. But until then, your rhetoric doesn't have ground to stand on.


 I am afraid the rhetoric is only coming from your side. Unlike you, i am not prone to any propaganda, especially propaganda related to religion, or worshipping some cleric. Please use logical arguments.





SalarHaqq said:


> People are intelligent enough to realize that when compared to the zionist lobby, the "south Korean lobby" and the "Japanese lobby" are non-existent in the US.


 World does not revolve on lobbies in the US. But i guess you would have figured it out by now?



SalarHaqq said:


> They only went for nukes after the US threatened them with invasion, and because contrary to Iran, they are lacking other decisive means of deterrence. The approach of the Iranian and Korean leaderships in this specific regard are identical and follow the exact same logic.


Like pointed out earlier. One side is a disciplined, neat military type of government with extremely strong deterrence while the other one is indecisive,unprofessional and pestered to the negotiating table and forced to install cameras in their own backyard. Honestly, when talking about strength of military developments it is an insult to NK to compare it to IR.

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## Shawnee

QWECXZ said:


> Remember you guys said the same thing about General Soleimani?
> Fortunately, Khamenei never travels outside of Iran. But you should never underestimate their stupidity.



Killing an 80ish year old leader who can be easily replaced likely by harsher, more anti-west, more mercurial and less conservative leader is a pure loss for them.

Khamenei is the soul behind not publicizing Iranian nuclear and missile power for his own reasons.

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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> No need to fool anyone here. I am an Iranian myself. We know what is going on inside the country. Only way IR can get saved is through a harsh crackdown on all traitors. From Shahis to MEK. Or they will be a trouble in the future.



Facts, not mere unsubstantiated contentions please. Transition will be smooth and completely frictionless.



> Old clerics with experience are near their deaths. In a decade or two they will all die out. Who has the charisma and experience and zeal to gel together this revolutionary IR spirit?



We have seyyed Raisi poised to succeed ayatollah Khamenei. Plus, the system will have other options in store as well.



> i agree, please stick to that. as a disciple of Khamenei you should follow his advice.



See, hajj Qassem's martyrdom did not alter the geopolitical balance to Iran's detriment. So you can't cherry pick that as evidence for Iran failing to deter the US regime.



> Please do not become emotional. It is what it is. You think present day clerics have the zeal and charisma of the 60's and 70's clerics? Do not tell jokes please.



Sure they do. It's not my fault if you aren't in the know.



> I agree that it did not do much. The Shia armed groups are still well connected and organized. But i was referring to saving face.



And I'm referring to why you initially brought it up.



> That is because IR never really escalated to a point that warrants its removal. They are forbidden to cross some red lines. e.g. having nukes, advanced missile tech etc



Yeah, but Saddam did escalate to that point. Gaddafi also. Of course... not!



> Geez, i know you are a diehard supporter of his but can you keep this slogan rhetoric down on a discussion forum?



Considering that I merely responded to your sloganeering, I don't think that's a fair objection.



> Unfortunately, that is true. Modern day monarchist rulers have been extremely incompetent.



Then let's give credit where due. Not misrepresent things.



> Don't you agree? In a vast bombing campaign by the full might of US airforce the IRGC would get weakened. What has this to do with nukes? Perhaps you misunderstood my point or i made it not clear to you.



This is how it unfolded (I paraphrase):

You: the Islamic Republic is afraid to acquire nuclear weapons because if it did, then the US would sanction Iran even more, assassinate the Supreme Leader and weaken the IRGC by subjecting it to a massive bombing campaign.

Me: but if nukes fail to deter aggression, what's the point in building them?

You: I didn't say that, nukes do deter.

Do you see the contradiction in your narrative?



> Getting nukes is an Israeli/American red line. And IR will not escalate it to that point because of unforeseeable consequences.



So you're back to saying that consequences would be unforseeable, right? See, you really really need to make up your mind: will nukes shield Iran from aggression, yes or no?

If yes, then Iran's leadership knows this better than any of us. And thus, it will rush to acquire some nukes if it fears being toppled by the US, like you claim it does.



> How so? Please elaborate.



I mentioned how North Korea has acted according to the same rationale as Iran in the nuclear realm, including when it comes to negotiations and when it comes to the criteria determining the need to go for nukes or refrain from doing so. To which you replied by saying the DPRK is disciplined and by remarks about the clothing style of Sepahis. Which is beside the point.



> Why even negotiate with murderers and thugs? You should read some pieces of Shariatmadari's Keyhan newspaper.



For the exact same reason that North Korea negotiated with these murderers and thugs during the Clinton years, and even struck a nuclear deal with them. And you should read some official North Korean newspapers and how they talk about the US... which makes Keyhan pale in comparison.

Besides, the current Vienna negotiations aren't going to lead anywhere. But politically, it is better for Iran to be able to say "see, we tried to negotiate but the US is refusing to respect its own engagements" than to forego this bonus point. It's called diplomacy, something Keyhan is not tasked with.



> I think we both agree that Khamenei is one of a kind. I maintain the believe that he is genuinely anti-imperialist/zionist. But once he is gone, he will be irreplaceable. Thus the other side has all the time in the world and wait it out.



Raisi. And other undisclosed options.



> I think you have comprehension problems and make up things now. I stand by my statement.
> Khamenei is afraid of US red lines and is indecisive and afraid of crossing those. Proof was the Soleimani saga (symbolic retaliatory strike) after Trump issued that 52 IR targets statement.



No really, it's you who seem to have difficulties settling for a viewpoint.

If these "red lines" you keep mentioning are a hoax - given that you claim nukes will deter the US from any acts of aggression, then seyyed Khamenei will know this better than you and I. And thus, fear of crossing these hoaxes of a "red line" cannot be the reason why Iran has not opted for nukes so far.



> Depends on a lot of factors. Real life politics is too complicated to give one or two examples and make up your case. It does not work like that. Saddam's Iraq or Libya example talks are baseless talks without any insight.



If you believe Libya and Iraq went farther than Iran in confronting the zio-American empire, then you might want to review historic facts once again.



> I have to say it looks more like quiet agreements. Both sides signal in the open through their moves.



It looks like Iran challenging zio-American hegemony, before anything else. Hence the incessant but failed attempts at "regime change" by Washington.



> I am afraid the rhetoric is only coming from your side. Unlike you, i am not prone to any propaganda, especially propaganda related to religion, or worshipping some cleric. Please use logical arguments.



Great. Then answer the question: show me another state leadership - outside of a handful, which has dared confront the zio-American empire like the Islamic Republic of Iran has been doing.



> World does not revolve on lobbies in the US. But i guess you would have figured it out by now?



First of all, yes it pretty much does. So much so that private interest groups are strong enough to have elected officials act against their promises to voters.

Secondly, US-zionist affinity goes way beyond lobby groups. It's at the very core of the ideological foundations of the US regime. From the zionist Christian Puritans and Quakers who settled in North America and shaped the US, to the freemason basis of the regime.

Either way, I don't think the fact that Isra"el" matters far more to the US than south Korea or Japan really stands to debate.



> Like pointed out earlier. One side is a disciplined, neat military type of government with extremely strong deterrence while the other one is indecisive,unprofessional and pestered to the negotiating table and forced to install cameras in their own backyard.



You mean like North Korea used to do before Bush junior threatened them with military aggression? Knowing that they lack all the major deterrence assets Iran is endowed with - ability to choke global energy supplies and thus cause economic meltdown, extensive network of regional allies capable of significant counter-escalation, and having the one entity that matters the most to Washington in reach of thousands of ballistic missiles.



> Honestly, when talking about strength of military developments it is an insult to NK to compare it to IR.



Only if one fails to take into account geopolitical context and specificities. Otherwise, one will realize how there's no difference between Iran and Korea in this regard.

- - - - -



QWECXZ said:


> Remember you guys said the same thing about General Soleimani?



Where was that, as far as I'm concerned? I don't remember making such a statement.



> Fortunately, Khamenei never travels outside of Iran. But you should never underestimate their stupidity.



Nor should you underestimate their intelligence. In particular the fact that they understand how such a move would not fall under the same category as a terror attack against a general, no matter how popular the latter is. And that consequences would therefore be on a different level as well.

But that's beside the point anyway. The main issue here is that if nukes are the only thing that will deter the enemy from taking such steps, then the Leadership would immediately order to build them. To claim the Leadership is too dumb to realize this, but that some random forum users do, is simply preposterous.

Basic logic, really.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> We have seyyed Raisi poised to succeed ayatollah Khamenei. Plus, the system will have other options in store as well.


 He is nowhere near Khamenei's level.




SalarHaqq said:


> See, hajj Qassem's martyrdom did not alter the geopolitical balance to Iran's detriment. So you can't cherry pick that as evidence for Iran failing to deter the US regime.


 If you think killing a nations most powerful general is not a clear case of failed deterrence, i will rest my case.



SalarHaqq said:


> Sure they do. It's not my fault if you aren't in the know.


 Same as above. If you continue to believe that younger generation of clerics can be contributing to the establishment as the clerics of the 60 and 70's then you are free to believe. however,time is the best storyteller. And i hope we are all around and safe by then to discuss this again.







SalarHaqq said:


> Considering that I merely responded to your sloganeering, I don't think that's a fair objection.


 Your love for one person can not make you blind to facts and situations before your eyes. Initially, i said this discussion will be futile, we will not reach anywhere since you are a diehard fan of IR and can not see its obvious mistakes.




SalarHaqq said:


> Then let's give credit where due. Not misrepresent things.


I am not a fan of propaganda and misrepresenting. I like to look more at the facts.



SalarHaqq said:


> This is how it unfolded (I paraphrase):
> 
> You: the Islamic Republic is afraid to acquire nuclear weapons because if it did, then the US would sanction Iran even more, assassinate the Supreme Leader and weaken the IRGC by subjecting it to a massive bombing campaign.
> 
> Me: but if nukes fail to deter aggression, what's the point in building them?
> 
> You: I didn't say that, nukes do deter.
> 
> Do you see the contradiction in your narrative?


 I think you are confused. What i meant is that the moment the IR crosses this red line and moves to make its first nuclear weapon there will be severe consequences and scenarios that i described earlier might unfold. High likely, considering what they have done to our most powerful General, they can also take out its commander in chief brazenly and without any consequences. After all What have they to fear?
Iran's conventional missile capacity will NOT destroy the Zionist military establishment in occupied Palestine. If you think otherwise you are misinformed about military matters. Only a credible, solid nuclear strike threat on Washington DC will be a guaranteed deterrent. 



SalarHaqq said:


> So you're back to saying that consequences would be unforseeable, right? See, you really really need to make up your mind: will nukes shield Iran from aggression, yes or no?


 Nukes will deter Iranian enemies without any doubt. But the moment IR opt for this the US will take action, because we do not have any game changing weapons.



SalarHaqq said:


> If yes, then Iran's leadership knows this better than any of us. And thus, it will rush to acquire some nukes if it fears being toppled by the US, like you claim it does.


 If they knew better they would not go back to the negotiating table after two decades to discuss with the white man to install cameras in their own backyard. Make up your mind, you want to give nuclear concessions or keep your nuclear program totally intact?



SalarHaqq said:


> I mentioned how North Korea has acted according to the same rationale as Iran in the nuclear realm, including when it comes to negotiations and when it comes to the criteria determining the need to go for nukes or refrain from doing so. To which you replied by saying the DPRK is disciplined and by remarks about the clothing style of Sepahis. Which is beside the point.


 North Korea can not be compared to Iran. One is disciplined and has an honest anti-imperialist outlook while the other is worried what might happen tomorrow.




SalarHaqq said:


> For the exact same reason that North Korea negotiated with these murderers and thugs during the Clinton years, and even struck a nuclear deal with them. And you should read some official North Korean newspapers and how they talk about the US... which makes Keyhan pale in comparison.


Nkorea tested its first nuke in 2006. IR is negotiating in 2021 to install cameras or not. You got to be kidding me. Clinton was North Korea's ''Obama''. So even if i do not dig deeper and explain more, you should get the explanation yourself. NKorea threw away the deal and went nuclear. Something Iran should have done in 2018 with Trump.

Btw, Rodong Sinmun can school Keyhan or other IR newspapers on anti US revolutionary zeal.




SalarHaqq said:


> Besides, the current Vienna negotiations aren't going to lead anywhere.


 What if they reached some deal in the near future?



SalarHaqq said:


> But politically, it is better for Iran to be able to say "see, we tried to negotiate but the US is refusing to uphold its own engagements"


 LOL. Did we not try that once? What is the JCPOA fiasco then?




SalarHaqq said:


> No really, it's you who seem to have difficulties settling for a viewpoint.


 Unfortunately, it is you who keeps getting confused. I made my point clear that nukes will
a) deter any foreign invasion and even slight military agressions.




SalarHaqq said:


> If these "red lines" you keep mentioning are a hoax - given that you claim nukes will deter the US from any acts of aggression, then seyyed Khamenei will know this better than you and I. And thus, fear of crossing these hoaxes of a "red line" cannot be the reason why Iran has not opted for nuked so far.


 Nope, impartial observers already realize this fact. And Khamenei is afraid of a direct war. I repeat, he will not cross this red line (making nukes). The moment he makes a step in that direction he will be eliminated. I know it is hard for you to accept this, but yes, the US dogs are that powerful. After nr.2 comes nr.1. But luckily, like @QWECXZ said, Khamenei does not travel outside Iran so he has less of a risk. But in a military campaign against Iranian mainland, he *will be* targetted, or you think the 52 targets Trump talked about is Takhte Jamshid instead of Beyte rahbari office, his house, insitutions etc? LOL






SalarHaqq said:


> It looks like Iran challenging zio-American hegemony, before anything else. Hence the incessant but failed attempts at "regime change" by Washington.


 I think you are daydreaming. Wake up seyed, regime change is ongoing in Iran now. All the youth and masses that are getting brainwashed by the enemy is a slow but sure regime change. You just do not see the effects now. Wait in a decade or two.




SalarHaqq said:


> Great. Then answer the question: show me another state leadership - outside of a handful, which has dared confront the zio-American empire like the Islamic Republic of Iran has been doing.


 Dared? I can immediately think of North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Bashar Al Assad etc. Or you meant something else than dare?







SalarHaqq said:


> Either way, I don't think the fact that Isra"el" matters far more to the US than south Korea or Japan really stands to debate.


Please do not be naive. The reason the US made Japan and Skorea its outpost is because of Russia and China. Both Japan and Skorea even border Russia and China.



SalarHaqq said:


> You mean like North Korea used to do before Bush junior threatened them with military aggression? Knowing that they lack all the major deterrence assets Iran is endowed with - ability to choke global energy supplies and thus cause economic meltdown, extensive network of regional allies capable of significant counter-escalation, and having the one entity that matters the most to Washington in reach of thousands of ballistic missiles.


 Seyed, i am telling you, ballistic missiles are not an existential threat to the zionist regime. You can play resistance all you want but the facts are on the table for you.


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## Blue In Green

This is a little bit of an incoherent rant but whatever, I wanna get this off my chest. I fully recognize Iran's weaknesses and the massive blows America has dealt to Iran, so I'm not delusion about where Iran stands in the grand scheme of things but there are important point to be happy about or at the very least, high-light.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the power America and its Zionist master holds over both the world and the region. Hint; they're not nearly as powerful as many of you here think they are, and their strength is waning year after year (please keep this in mind).

_*With regards to Shahid Hajj-Qassem Soleimani:*_ He was and still is an important figure who *fully*-understood that his life was always forfeit for the cause he fought for (a cause that millions of others also fight for currently), so taking his death as a sign of Iran's "weakness" isn't entirely fair. In truth, his death was a cowardly act since he was unjustly lured in by certain 'interlopers' which set him up for assassination. But Iran got their pound of flesh out of America by striking Ain-Al Assad (Americans are straight lying to the world about the extent of the damage) and downing an essential American data-communications aircraft (one of only four in existence) quickly after his murder. This was (in my belief) done by a highly trained group of IRGC soldiers, utilizing yet to be unveiled AA systems that allowed for a low footprint on/in the Afghan/Iran border region. It still is quite humorous to see just how quickly American military brass and media covered up the story but the speed of which the photos had been disseminated and details in photos after the shoot-down (FARS news aired) would suggest that this was an Iranian covert tit-for-tat operation. The Ain-Al Assad strike was the overt operation meant to re-establish deterrence......So Iran got its "revenge" (sort-of) against America and is probably still seeking to kill higher ranking American political/service members.

_*Moving on to missiles:*_ OSINT information gathered over the years (a lot of which all of us here have discussed) would point to the sobering reality that the IRGC-AEROSPACE missile fleet now represents an existential threat to the viability of Israel to function as a state (if a conflict were to go down) and an extreme danger to the United States and its interest in the region. When you have American generals/military commentators saying that Iran now has achieved "overmatch" then you know that Iran's *actual *capability has far surpassed even that. I've said it before and will say it again, IRGCs problem went from "we don't have enough missiles" to "we're making so many of these damn things that our firing methods aren't efficient enough and we need to make a lot more space for them" hence why we see Iranian engineers working year-round to establish ever expansive mountain missile bases. We all did bear witness to Iran finally unveiling the 'Multiple-Launch Ballistic Missile System' that utilizes large magazines loaded with EMAD type BMs on a motorized track. Such a thing is insane and further adds to the reality of just how dangerous Iran's missile quantity is becoming for both Israel and the United States.

These weapon systems have matured both in combat ability and quantity to the point that they actually can dismantle a smaller states (Israel) ability to function as a nation. In a week or less (or more, doesn't matter end result will be the same), IRGC missiles will have taken away the ability of Israelis to drink fresh water, drive, use electricity, get products via-sea port, rely on their occupation forces to oppress native Palestinians and use their air-planes (if Iran were to be extra cruel). I mean imagine the sheer amount of utter pandemonium when the Palestinians start to see Israeli occupation forces lose their ability to oppress them since their offices and barracks have been blown to shit by Iranian LACMs, Suicide drones and long-range BMs. *This is what we mean by "missiles are an existential threat to Israel". *

Moreover, we all saw the strike against the Americans, the operations against ISIS, the countless BM exercises conducted throughout the year, the missile fabrication lines, assembly plants, the recently showed off foreign export line of Iranian made missile systems, etc etc.... You'd have to completely removed from reality not to believe that Iran has achieved an immense missile/weapons production capacity.

Anyways......

*The nuclear issue: *Iran has lost too many young and talented nuclear physicists over the years due to Israel's ill-thought out assassination policies that have only helped Iran further increase its nuclear capacity. And the current infrastructure Iran has will only become bigger as Iran's knowledge and indigenous know-how of nuclear science expands each year. This nuclear issue was *never* about WMDs, it was always about dismantling or changing the way Iran currently is acting/their mission. The nuclear issue was always a means to an end. An end in which they currently have no viable means of achieving (quite ironic).

Idk guys, I think Iran will be fine for the time being. America is on its way out as the world's foremost hegemonic power and quite frankly, they've got *WAY BIGGER FISH TO FRY. *China's meteoric rise as a military/economic superpower will be the defining moment of America's worldwide legacy. Either they "get along" or one comes out on top. Given just how shitty things are here in America (domestically) I'd say China has more than a fair chance of beating America at its own game.

The Zionists on the other hand have a much more pressing matter facing them. With the continued advancement of Iran in the region and strengthening of Iranian allies (namely Hezbollah). There will come a time where the Zionist entity must come to open blows against a foe that has the means to takeaway the very things that make a nation run. Hopefully more progressive/liberal political groups take power in Israel over the coming years and allow native Palestinians to have more agency in their own homeland but as it stands currently. Iran/Hezbollah and other aligned groups will have a larger all-out conflict erupt with Israel sooner or later.

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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> He is nowhere near Khamenei's level.



He is just as keen to continue to resist the empire, which is what this discussion was about.



> If you think killing a nations most powerful general is not a clear case of failed deterrence, i will rest my case.



Given that this assassination changed nothing to the geopolitical equation, yes, there was no "breach" in deterrence.



> Same as above. If you continue to believe that younger generation of clerics can be contributing to the establishment as the clerics of the 60 and 70's then you are free to believe. however,time is the best storyteller. And i hope we are all around and safe by then to discuss this again.



If you want to make a point, you need to substantiate it with hard facts. Mere statements can never cut it. What exactly you're basing yourself on to make such a claim about Iran's contemporary clergy is the question here. What study, what research paper, what evidence, etc.



> Your love for one person can not make you blind to facts and situations before your eyes. Initially, i said this discussion will be futile, we will not reach anywhere since you are a diehard fan of IR and can not see its obvious mistakes.



Problem with this is that I merely stated facts and produced rational arguments. So I'm not the one whom this charge of being biased vis a vis the person of the Supreme Leader would apply to.



> I think you are confused. What i meant is that the moment the IR crosses this red line and moves to make its first nuclear weapon there will be severe consequences and scenarios that i described earlier might unfold.



You keep saying I'm confused yet your argument is inherently self-contradicting.

So let me examine the latest variant of your evolving narrative: now you're saying the moment the IR decides to go for nukes, the Leader will be assassinated and massive bombing of the IRGC will ensue... This begs two questions:

1) Are you saying these bombardments will successfully prevent Iran from building the nukes? If yes, what exactly are you complaining about? Since you believe Iran cannot build nukes anyway, because the moment it tries, the US will bomb her so much as to prevent it from happening.

2) If you're saying that the US can assassinate the Supreme Leader and bomb the IRGC into oblivion, but can't prevent Iran from building nukes, then I'd suggest to reexamine your assertion under a somewhat more rational light. Because see, if the US had the means to do all which you suggest, it sure as hell would also have the means to militarily prevent Iran from completing the construction of nuclear weapons. If you're suggesting that one person - the Supreme Leader, cannot be safely protected from US bombings, but that the entire infrastructure needed to build nukes can, then you must be joking, honestly.

Hope you reckon that this right here is pristine, elementary logos. No bias, no propaganda, nothing of the sort.



> High likely, considering what they have done to our most powerful General, they can also take out its commander in chief brazenly and without any consequences. After all What have they to fear?



They have to fear the same thing which prevents them from launching all military aggression against Iran.



> Iran's conventional missile capacity will NOT destroy the Zionist military establishment in occupied Palestine. If you think otherwise you are misinformed about military matters. Only a credible, solid nuclear strike threat on Washington DC will be a guaranteed deterrent.



Re-read my quote. You're not addressing it properly. Iran's present capability *DOES* deter and *HAS *deterred both the zionists and their American shabbos goys from attacking Iran. Else they would have done it *ages ago*. They'd have done it before Iraq, they'd have done it before Libya, they'd have done it before Syria because Iran's their biggest target among all the mentioned countries.



> Nukes will deter Iranian enemies without any doubt. But the moment IR opt for this the US will take action, because we do not have any game changing weapons.



Then what exactly are you lamenting about? If Iran cannot safely acquire nukes because the US will prevent her from doing so, as you now claim, why are you pretending its "fear" that's preventing Iran from taking that step, and not actual material impossibility, like you're now claiming? Please make up your mind.



> If they knew better they would not go back to the negotiating table after two decades to discuss with the white man to install cameras in their own backyard. Make up your mind, you want to give nuclear concessions or keep your nuclear program totally intact?



You make up your mind: can Iran develop nukes or not? You just seemed to suggest she won't be able to, just one line above. Either that, or you're suggesting Iran can protect nuclear facilities from US bombing, but can't protect the Supreme Leader from the same. None of which would be accurate.

Also as I told you, the negotiations won't result in Iran making any incapacitating concessions. Rahbar has made sure of that. But they do provide Iran with a heavy hitting political argument. So our minds are perfectly set already. You just need to make the effort of trying to understand these intricacies. It's not Iran's fault if choose not to.



> North Korea can not be compared to Iran. One is disciplined and has an honest anti-imperialist outlook while the other is worried what might happen tomorrow.



North Korea has pursued the exact same approach as Iran when it comes to this issue. I gave you exact reasons as to why, you're countering with slogans.



> Nkorea tested its first nuke in 2006. IR is negotiating in 2021 to install cameras or not. You got to be kidding me. Clinton was North Korea's ''Obama''. So even if i do not dig deeper and explain more, you should get the explanation yourself. NKorea threw away the deal and went nuclear. Something Iran should have done in 2018 with Trump.



I perfectly explained it already: North Korea had no other means to ensure deterrence. Iran does. Had North Korea been enjoying the same deterrence assets as Iran, she would never have opted for nukes. Simple as that.



> Btw, Rodong Sinmun can school Keyhan or other IR newspapers on anti US revolutionary zeal.



Even when Pyongyang was sitting at the negotiating table with Clinton and Trump? Rodong Sinmun blasting America during those same days was okay, but Keyhan blasting the US now isn't?



> What if they reached some deal in the near future?



They won't. And any deal reached will neither deprive Iran of her latent nuclear break out capability, nor of the benefits of civilian nuclear science. That's all which matters. The rest is just empty talk.



> LOL. Did we not try that once? What is the JCPOA fiasco then?



The Ahmadinejad administration negotiated too, and no "JCPOA fiasco" came out of it.



> Unfortunately, it is you who keeps getting confused. I made my point clear that nukes will
> a) deter any foreign invasion and even slight military agressions.



What are "slight military aggressions"? What's their relevance if they change nothing to the overall picture? Answer these questions, don't dodge them.

Also, you flip flopped your statement twice, no less. Going from "if Iran build nukes the US will attack" to "if Iran builds nukes the US will not be able to do anything, but the Iranian leadership is too dumb to realize that", to "the moment Iran tries to build nukes the US will attack" in your latest iteration. All three being baseless, obviously.

But most importantly, Iran's non-nuclear arsenal has successfully deterred the US from daring to launch military aggression against Iran. End of story.



> Nope, impartial observers already realize this fact.



You don't even take the time to read what it is you're replying to it would seem. Re-read that part of the discussion.



> And Khamenei is afraid of a direct war.



The US regime is afraid of direct war with Iran. Proof: it never dared initiate any, despite holding a far greater grudge against Iran than it ever did against Saddam, Gaddafi and so on.

I know, it's impossible to disprove the above logically and therefore it can only be countered through unsubstantiated claims over and over again. Not a problem with me, all this will achieve is to show readers who can back up their arguments with evidence and who can't.



> I repeat, he will not cross this red line (making nukes).



He crossed all imperial red lines ever since he came to power. Nukes are subsidiary and insignificant in this regard. They are a means, not the be all end all. And so that's how we ought to appreciate things.



> The moment he makes a step in that direction he will be eliminated. I know it is hard for you to accept this, but yes, the US dogs are that powerful. After nr.2 comes nr.1.



Right, the US can "eliminate" Iran's Supreme Leader but then it cannot eliminate the facilities Iran would use to build those nukes... So rather than going straight for these facilities, it would go for Iran's Leader.

Frankly, try some solid logic now.



> But luckily, like @QWECXZ said, Khamenei does not travel outside Iran so he has less of a risk. But in a military campaign against Iranian mainland, he *will be* targetted, or you think the 52 targets Trump talked about is Takhte Jamshid instead of Beyte rahbari office, his house, insitutions etc? LOL



This is sub-par level argumentation. To suppose that Iran cannot protect her Supreme Leader in case of a war, but can shield facilities needed to produce nuclear weapons. Come on.



> I think you are daydreaming.



You are free to think that.



> Wake up seyed, regime change is ongoing in Iran now. All the youth and masses that are getting brainwashed by the enemy is a slow but sure regime change. You just do not see the effects now. Wait in a decade or two.



It's you who needs to wake up. It's been 43 years that we're hearing this mantra and nothing of the sort ever happened. Aren't you getting tired of it?



> Dared? I can immediately think of North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Bashar Al Assad etc. Or you meant something else than dare?



Exactly what part of "outside of a handful" don't you understand? So yes, seyyed Khamenei is one out of 5 or so. Five out of some 195 sovereign states on Earth.

Now you grasp the meaning of to dare.



> Please do not be naive. The reason the US made Japan and Skorea its outpost is because of Russia and China. Both Japan and Skorea even border Russia and China.



The only naive one would be he who seeks to peddle the notion that south Korea and Japan matter more to the US and are wielding greater influence upon the American establishment than zionists.



> Seyed, i am telling you, ballistic missiles are not an existential threat to the zionist regime. You can play resistance all you want but the facts are on the table for you.



I'm not a seyyed, so kindly don't call me that.

Secondly, why constantly dodge the points? I'm referring to the proven deterrent power of Iran's ballistic missiles, which, along with the other tools mentioned, have successfully deterred the enemy from striking Iran as a matter of simple fact. It's not that hard to realize.

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## Dariush the Great

SalarHaqq said:


> He is just as keen to continue to resist the empire, which is what this discussion was about.


 Like i said, Seyed, not on the level of Khamenei. For sure not a person who can continue IR the way Khamenei did.





SalarHaqq said:


> Given that this assassination changed nothing to the geopolitical equation, yes, there was no "breach" in deterrence.


 Pick up a dictionary and search what deterrence means.




SalarHaqq said:


> If you want to make a point, you need to substantiate it with hard facts. Mere statements can never cut it. What exactly you're basing yourself on to make such a claim about Iran's contemporary clergy is the question here. What study, what research paper, what evidence, etc.


 Just use common sense, something that you are deprived of. It is a no brainer that the 60's and 70's clerics wielded much more power than nowadays.








SalarHaqq said:


> You keep saying I'm confused yet your argument is inherently self-contradicting.


 You are confused Seyed and you are repeating the same things over and over again. Which part don't you understand? I will explain it for you.



SalarHaqq said:


> So let me examine the latest variant of your evolving narrative: now you're saying the moment the IR decides to go for nukes, the Leader will be assassinated and massive bombing of the IRGC will ensue... This begs two questions:


 The confusion continues.

Israel and the US will not allow Khamenei to get nukes. Hence, reason why he never violates any of these red lines. The evidence is right before your eyes.





SalarHaqq said:


> 1) Are you saying these bombardments will successfully prevent Iran from building the nukes?


 Yes, and no. Depends on the ''orze'' of the establishment. If they did indeed develop some alternative plans then no. If, what i suspect, they did not, then yes, unfortunately, the bombings will do that.




SalarHaqq said:


> If yes, what exactly are you complaining about? Since you believe Iran cannot build nukes anyway, because the moment it tries, the US will bomb her so much as to prevent it from happening.


 We go back to my point of you being confused. Because the core of the problem here is you getting confused over and over again over my points. This has all to do with Khameneis indecisiveness, the longer he prolongs, the worse and uncertain the outcome would be. But i don't think he is going after nukes because he issued a fatwa on this (extremely likely, even if his fatwa can not be found directly).







SalarHaqq said:


> 2) If you're saying that the US can assassinate the Supreme Leader and bomb the IRGC into oblivion, but can't prevent Iran from building nukes


 You are getting confused here again, Seyed. The US has indeed the power to kill Khamenei, if you tell me no, then i will think you are a little child with 0 knowledge. Is your world that propagandish?





SalarHaqq said:


> if the US had the means to do all which you suggest, it sure as hell would also have the means to militarily prevent Iran from completing the construction of nuclear weapons.


 We go back to my statement where i said, Khamenei is respecting the red lines put in place by the US. He can not escalate more from a certain point. The escalation has to be proportionate and by the rules. He is a very good boy.





SalarHaqq said:


> If you're suggesting that one person - the Supreme Leader, cannot be safely protected from US bombings, but that the entire infrastructure needed to build nukes can, then you must be joking, honestly.


 Are you serious? You are saying that killing one person is harder than wiping out a whole nuclear infrastructure? (some serious % being fortified, under mountains etc). Stop wasting time with such childish talks. Be serious.






SalarHaqq said:


> Re-read my quote. You're not addressing it properly. Iran's present capability *DOES* deter and *HAS *deterred both the zionists and their American shabbos goys from attacking Iran.


 Poor argument. You are all betting your arguments and your whole reputation on the fact that the US has not bombed the Iranian mainland yet! Extremely risky bet imo.




SalarHaqq said:


> Else they would have done it *ages ago*. They'd have done it before Iraq, they'd have done it before Libya, they'd have done it before Syria because Iran's their biggest target among all the mentioned countries.


 Continuous display of poor argument. ''Oh look, they bombed libya and iraq, but IR is not bombed yet, so IR must be some super duper entity''... ehm no. The real world does not work like that.




SalarHaqq said:


> Then what exactly are you lamenting about? If Iran cannot safely acquire nukes because the US will prevent her from doing so, as you now claim, why are you pretending its "fear" that's preventing Iran from taking that step, and not actual material impossibility, like you're now claiming? Please make up your mind.


 Already addressed.



SalarHaqq said:


> You make up your mind: can Iran develop nukes or not? You just claimed she won't be able to, just one line above.


 Under leadership of Khamenei? Hell no. That is what am telling you from the beginning, but your love for Khamenei is making you blind and deaf from even a little bit rational thinking.



SalarHaqq said:


> Also as I told you, the negotiations won't result in Iran making any incapacitating concessions.


 So it went from ''no concessions at all'' to ''any incapacitating concessions'' ?
right lol. btw the former statement by IR officials.



SalarHaqq said:


> Rahbar has made sure of that. But they do provide Iran with a heavy hitting political argument. So our minds are perfectly made up already. You just need to make the effort of trying to understand these intricacies. It's not Iran's fault if choose not to do so.


 Rahbar has made sure of what? Shipping all the enriched uranium away, pouring beton in arak,allowing camera installations, CIA&Mossad inspection and making deal with untrustworthy US?



SalarHaqq said:


> North Korea has pursued the exact same approach as Iran when it comes to this issue. I gave you exact reasons as to why, you're countering with slogans.


 I am afraid, you are the one being extremely emotional, over your love for one person.





SalarHaqq said:


> I perfectly explained it already: North Korea had no other means to ensure deterrence. Iran does. Had North Korea been enjoying the same deterrence assets as Iran, she would never have opted for nukes. Simple as that.


 I am sorry but i dont see North Korean nr.1 Generals getting killed even before they had no nukes. North Korea has a much higher deterrence than IR. Its a no brainer. Lay off the IR propaganda for a bit.

And North Korea has artilerry deterrence over Seoul. Widen your military knowledge please.




SalarHaqq said:


> Even when Pyongyang was sitting at the negotiating table with Clinton and Trump? Funny how you're constantly contradicting yourself and not even realizing it.


 Then what? They developed nukes. They are not like IR, endlessly begging at the negotiating table.







SalarHaqq said:


> The Ahmadinejad administration negotiated too, and no "JCPOA fiasco" came out of it.


 It is getting funnier.
You said " But politically, it is better for Iran to be able to say "see, we tried to negotiate but the US is refusing to uphold its own engagements"

Did IR not negotiate for several years and made a deal with the US? What happened after that? You need a second negotiation? What has Ahmadinejad to do with this? Please don't get too radical.








SalarHaqq said:


> Also, you flip flopped your statement twice, no less. Going from "if Iran build nukes the US will attack" to "if Iran builds nukes the US will not be able to do anything, but the Iranian leadership is too dumb to realize that", to "the moment Iran tries to build nukes the US will attack" in your latest iteration. All three being baseless, obviously.


 It is not my fault that you have a poor comprehension problem. Perhaps i need to dumb down my statements for you to understand. Because sometimes i leave out details, in the hope of you understanding them yourself, but alas.





SalarHaqq said:


> But most importantly, Iran's non-nuclear arsenal has successfully deterred the US from daring to launch military aggression against Iran. End of story.


 All your argument hinges on the fact that they not openly declared war and bombed the Iranian mainland. Extremely poor argument and time wasting.
Intelligent readers would understand this point.




SalarHaqq said:


> You don't even take the time to read what it is you're replying to it would seem. Re-read that part of the discussion.


 Seyed, i am tired of having to explain to you. But it's ok. Depending on your ''por roo-ness'' I will stick around a little longer.




SalarHaqq said:


> The US regime is afraid of direct war with Iran. Proof: it never dared initiate any, despite holding a far greater grudge against Iran than it ever did against Saddam, Gaddafi and so on..


 Salami, is that you?




SalarHaqq said:


> I know, it's impossible to disprove the above logically and therefore it can only be countered through unsubstantiated claims over and over again. Not a problem with me, all this will achieve is to show readers who can back up their arguments with evidence and who can't.


 Readers know that you are a radical shia muslim. And they know you have a big love for Khamenei. I am pretty relaxed in my position. *You are blinded by ideology.* I am not.




SalarHaqq said:


> He crossed all imperial red lines ever since he came to power. Nukes are subsidiary and insignificant in this regard. They are a means, not the be all end all. And so that's how we ought to appreciate things..


 So you are repeating that eliminating one tiny person is harder than a vast nuclear infrastructure? LOL






SalarHaqq said:


> Right, the US can "eliminate" Iran's Supreme Leader but then it cannot eliminate the facilities Iran would use to build those nukes... So rather than going straight for these facilities, it would go for Iran's Leader.


 Same as above. You are making a joke of yourself. Honestly, i don't even know why i am wasting my time on this. It takes even less than 1KG of TNT to eliminate Khamenei (if planned properly). However with thousands of tons of bombs it is still not sufficient to take out the entire nuclear program.

Shall i talk more in baby language with you, Seyed?







SalarHaqq said:


> This is sub-par level argumentation. To suppose that Iran cannot protect her Supreme Leader in case of a war, but can shield facilities needed to produce nuclear weapons. Hilarious!


 Haha. To think that one person is harder to eliminate than a vast nuclear program. You are nuts 
I am not even joking now. You make me shocked.








SalarHaqq said:


> What part of "outside of a handful" don't you understand? So yes, seyyed Khamenei is one out of 5 or so. Five out of some 195 sovereign states on Earth.


 You wrote handful out of spite, Seyed. In reality you wanted to say that he is the only genuine and daring one. We both know this, and all readers know this.








SalarHaqq said:


> Secondly, why are you dodging my points all the time? I'm referring to the proven deterrent power of Iran's ballistic missiles, which, along with the other tools mentioned, have successfully deterred the enemy from striking Iran as a matter of simple fact. It's not that hard to realize.


 already addressed before. all your arguments depend on one fact : Iran's mainland not attacked yet. it is not a safe position to be in though. I suggest you to revise your argument.

Honestly, i knew from the beginning it would be a total waste of time to start a discussion with you on Khamenei,IR and so on but it's okay, let's have some fun while we are at it. Btw, no hard feelings discussing these issues. Might get heated sometimes. I am a big fan of your posts against those anti Iran trolls here


----------



## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> Like i said, Seyed, not on the level of Khamenei. For sure not a person who can continue IR the way Khamenei did.



I'm not a seyyed. Are you like, dull or just holding a grudge against Islam for replacing Zoroastrianism and with the Islamic Republic for putting an end to monarchy in Iran?

Then, I politely asked you for evidence as to the crazy notion that Ebrahim Raisi "does not" intend to pursue Resistance against the zio-American empire "on the same level" as Supreme Leader Khamenei. But you consistently fail to provide any. Now you can repeat unsubstantiated claims as many times as you like, that won't make them any more credible nor accurate, I'm afraid.



> Pick up a dictionary and search what deterrence means.



No need, Islamic Iran is showing us what it actually means.



> Just use common sense, something that you are deprived of. It is a no brainer that the 60's and 70's clerics wielded much more power than nowadays.



So you gladly admit you have zero evidence. Zero argument. Nothing. Only claims. Which are plain worthless in a rational discussion.



> You are confused Seyed and you are repeating the same things over and over again. Which part don't you understand? I will explain it for you.



Firstly, start by understanding that I'm not a seyyed. That'll make you come across as less grotesque.

Secondly, I'm simply dismantling gibberish I read, i.e. responding point by point. Blame it on yourself if it feels repetitive to you.



> The confusion continues.
> 
> Israel and the US will not allow Khamenei to get nukes. Hence, reason why he never violates any of these red lines. The evidence is right before your eyes.



Figment of your colorful but uninformed imagination, which you repeatedly fail to substantiate with evidence. No wonder, because it's beyond baseless.

Iran doesn't require nukes because she doesn't need any to deter the enemy from military aggression and to pursue her strategic goals. Hence why Iran has not acquired nuclear weapons.



> Yes, and no. Depends on the ''orze'' of the establishment. If they did indeed develop some alternative plans then no. If, what i suspect, they did not, then yes, unfortunately, the bombings will do that.



So you don't actually know. Nice admission. Next.



> We go back to my point of you being confused. Because the core of the problem here is you getting confused over and over again over my points. This has all to do with Khameneis indecisiveness, the longer he prolongs, the worse and uncertain the outcome would be. But i don't think he is going after nukes because he issued a fatwa on this (extremely likely, even if his fatwa can not be found directly).



We are back at you desperately twisting and spinning your own narrative in hopes of falling back on your feet. But since you don't properly master dialectics, you fail even at that.

In short, you keep whining that the Supreme Leader hasn't ordered to build nuclear weapons. Then you say you're not even sure that if he did, Iran could succeed in doing so under the US radar. Confused loggorhoea at its worst. And all claims made without any evidence nor compelling justification, of course.



> You are getting confused here again, Seyed. The US has indeed the power to kill Khamenei, if you tell me no, then i will think you are a little child with 0 knowledge. Is your world that propagandish?



Do give it another try: the question's whether you believe the US can assassinate Iran's Leader while at the same time asserting it can't annihilate the facilities Iran would use to build nukes with. You understand the nuance?



> We go back to my statement where i said, Khamenei is respecting the red lines put in place by the US. He can not escalate more from a certain point. The escalation has to be proportionate and by the rules. He is a very good boy.



1) Are nukes the only means to deter the US? You say yes.
2) If they deter the US, why does the Leader not order Iran to acquire them? You say because in that case, he would get assassinated by the US the moment he issued the orders.
3) If Iran cannot keep its Leader safe from assassination, what makes you think she can keep entire nuclear installations safe from getting obliterated by the US? You say yes, the US is indeed very much capable of destroying Iran's nuclear infrastructure.

Conclusion: your narrative is delusional for suggesting that in order to ensure Iran will not get nukes, the US will prefer threatening Iran's Leader with assassination, rather than simply bombing Iran's nuclear installations and thereby guaranteeing with far greater certainty that Iran will be deprived of the means to do so.

Your narrative is delusional for implying that the US can bomb Iran's nuclear installations but didn't because they prefer some sort of an imaginary "tacit understanding" with Iran, whereby Iran would be allowed to maintain latent nuclear break out capability while continuing to defy the zio-Americans and to openly confront them!



> Are you serious? You are saying that killing one person is harder than wiping out a whole nuclear infrastructure? (some serious % being fortified, under mountains etc). Stop wasting time with such childish talks. Be serious.



Because a person cannot be sheltered in fortified bases, of course. Because a well protected person at the level of Iran's Supreme Leader, can't be successfully dissimulated from the enemy. Stop watching Hollywood films, where heads of state get assassinated by some American harlequin as if it was child's play.



> Poor argument. You are all betting your arguments and your whole reputation on the fact that the US has not bombed the Iranian mainland yet! Extremely risky bet imo.



It's an excellent, solid argument. Onto itself, it debunks your entire, self-contradicting story telling.



> Continuous display of poor argument. ''Oh look, they bombed libya and iraq, but IR is not bombed yet, so IR must be some super duper entity''... ehm no. The real world does not work like that.



That's not a reply. You don't have a counter-argument, have not furnished any alternate explanation as to the stark contrast in how Washington treated Iraq and Libya as compared to Iran. Hence the hollow one-liner again.



> Already addressed.



No.



> Under leadership of Khamenei? Hell no. That is what am telling you from the beginning, but your love for Khamenei is making you blind and deaf from even a little bit rational thinking.



You consistently fail to provide any valid reason for this assumption, trying to make it appear as a documented fact when it's nothing but a baseless assertion.



> So it went from ''no concessions at all'' to ''any incapacitating concessions'' ?
> right lol. btw the former statement by IR officials.



Where did I talk of "no concessions at all"? From the very beginning, I repeated that Iran will not forego two things:

1) Capability and know how to operate nuclear break out if required.
2) Civilian nuclear applications.

Which is all that matters.



> Rahbar has made sure of what? Shipping all the enriched uranium away, pouring beton in arak,allowing camera installations, CIA&Mossad inspection and making deal with untrustworthy US?



1) Capability and know how to operate nuclear break out if required.
2) Civilian nuclear applications.

Which is all that matters.



> I am afraid, you are the one being extremely emotional, over your love for one person.



You're resorting to slogans and unsubstantiated claims because you're driven by political bias.



> I am sorry but i dont see North Korean nr.1 Generals getting killed even before they had no nukes. North Korea has a much higher deterrence than IR. Its a no brainer. Lay off the IR propaganda for a bit.



What did that assassination change to the geostrategic equation in the US-Iran confrontation? Better not try to reply to that one, eh? Keep dodging and I will keep reminding everyone of this little fact.

Besides, I was not speculating about who has "higher" deterrence. I was explaining what drove the DPRK to go for nukes; namely, her lack of sufficient alternate means of deterrence. The DPRK didn't build nuclear bombs to prevent her generals from being assassinated. She did so to deter against all out invasion.



> And North Korea has artilerry deterrence over Seoul. Widen your military knowledge please.



1) The US will sacrifice Seoul, not Tel Aviv.
2) That's still not enough on its own. Iran is in possession of two to three additional key assets of deterrence.



> Then what? They developed nukes. They are not like IR, endlessly begging at the negotiating table.



Missing the point again. You were trying to land a cheap jab against Keyhan for authoring opinion pieces against the US while Iran is holding negotiations. I highlighted your double standards, given that Korean papers were resorting to the exact same practice at the same time as Pyongyang was engaging in negotiations with Washington. So your point is moot, irrelevant, and motivated by political grudge.

Oh, and "begging"... sure. Iran's "begging" them right now. Stay under that delusion if it helps you sleep better.



> It is getting funnier.
> You said " But politically, it is better for Iran to be able to say "see, we tried to negotiate but the US is refusing to uphold its own engagements"
> 
> Did IR not negotiate for several years and made a deal with the US? What happened after that? You need a second negotiation? What has Ahmadinejad to do with this? Please don't get too radical.



What are you talking about? You suggested it makes no sense for Iran to partake in any negotiating process with the criminal US, even if at the end of the day Iran will refrain from making unacceptable concessions (and even if this should therefore result in a failure of the talks). I told you why it does makes sense *even under these circumstances*. Got it? The fact that you then felt compelled to bring up the JCPOA is indicative of either one of the following two possibilities: 1) You failed to understand the point, as often. 2) Tried to weasel your way around the argumentative predicament my explanation put you in, thinking I had forgotten about the successive steps of this discussion.



> It is not my fault that you have a poor comprehension problem.



You're right, I have a "poor comprehension problem": I have issues with manifestations of poor comprehension indeed. And with those exhibiting it. It's just not my cup of tea.



> Perhaps i need to dumb down my statements for you to understand. Because sometimes i leave out details, in the hope of you understanding them yourself, but alas..



This is your response to my accurate observation? How convincing!



> All your argument hinges on the fact that they not openly declared war and bombed the Iranian mainland. Extremely poor argument and time wasting.
> Intelligent readers would understand this point.



No, not at all. I made a considerable quantity of points. Besides, you declaring it's a "poor argument" does not make it so. That's just your attempt at trying to dodge it, because you've no counter-argument to present.



> Seyed, i am tired of having to explain to you. But it's ok. Depending of your ''por roo-ness'' I will stick around a little longer.



What brilliant, striking demonstration. Absolutely persuasive. "Dariush the Great" at their shocking best.



> Readers know that you are a radical shia muslim. And they know you have a big love for Khamenei. I am pretty relaxed in my position. *You are blinded by ideology.* I am not.



The fact that you must allude to my political orientation and even to my religious beliefs when none of the points I made is based on either religious or ideological considerations just proves that you are failing to address them on a rational level.

Your constant referring to me as "seyyed" furthermore shows how you're attempting to appeal to certain prejudices shared by secular nationalist Iranians as well as those with some grudge against Islam. Rest assured though, no such antics will lend your rant any validity.



> So you are repeating that eliminating one tiny person is harder than a vast nuclear infrastructure? LOL





> Same as above. You are making a joke of yourself. Honestly, i don't even know why i am wasting my time on this. It takes even less than 1KG of TNT to eliminate Khamenei (if planned properly). However with thousands of tons of bombs it is still not sufficient to take out the entire nuclear program.





> Haha. To think that one person is harder to eliminate than a vast nuclear program. You are nuts
> I am not even joking now. You make me shocked.



Keep trying to suggest it's an ordinary person we're talking about, or that a facility capable of successfully shielding machinery from US strikes will not also allow to keeping a person secure. Keep issuing outlandish claims such as that Iran doesn't possess the ability to dissimulate her Leader from enemy operatives.



> In reality you wanted to say that he is the only genuine and daring one. We both know this, and all readers know this.



I'd be worried about my psychological balance if I were you, for randomly attributing fictitious intentions to people.

But again that's beside the point, because this single fact is amply sufficient to debunk your rant. Yes, one in merely 5 or so heads of state, out of a staggering 195, to dare confront the zio-American empire. And this subject is trying to portray him as particularly insecure and submissive vis a vis US power. What a complete and utter joke.



> already addressed before. all your arguments depend on one fact : Iran's mainland not attacked yet. it is not a safe position to be in though. I suggest you to revise your argument.



Iran's in a perfectly safe position. Does that fact annoy you this much? Hahaha.

Last but not least, I'm surely not the only one to have noticed how you like to take on non-Iranians when they post comments identical to yours about Iran being weak for not deterring the terrorist killing of shahid Soleimani, about Iran "not daring" to go for nukes (a favorite among local Pakistani users who dislike Iran), and so on, but then you come here and repeat these same talking points. Consistency definitely doesn't seem to be your forte now, does it.

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## sha ah

Why Chinese missiles outperform those of the US


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## Stryker1982

FYI, for the friends on this forum.

Their is a NOTAM in place from Jan 18-20 in Semnan, where rocket firing will take place.

Decently likelihood a SAT launch will take place. Perhaps with the new Raafe engine. We shall see what happens in the next few days.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482619905862246405

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482619916985544705

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482619931527102464

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482639339414822912

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482746213133066242

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## jauk

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482619905862246405
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482619916985544705
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482619931527102464


Can anyone suggest a link that describes the physical and vector dynamics of rocket and test stands? I don't understand how the various force vectors cancel each other out and why the motor simply doesn't self-destruct.

Thanks!


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## sha ah

The Houthis are claiming that they used 5 ballistic missiles and multiple drones. So their missiles and drones traveled 2000 KM ? That's a huge step up in capability. The Saudi/Emirati coalition are in big trouble. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483146085786951681


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## Stryker1982

sha ah said:


> The Houthis are claiming that they used 5 ballistic missiles and multiple drones. So their missiles and drones traveled 2000 KM ? That's a huge step up in capability. The Saudi/Emirati coalition are in big trouble.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483146085786951681


US didn't seem to mention anything about missiles, and only said "drones".

Although, highly likely cruise missiles were used to travel very long distances. Could be a hoveyzeh

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## Sineva



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## Stryker1982

Sineva said:


>


148 meters....ouch.

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> 148 meters....ouch.


you think its 148m , I dare anybody stay160m in front of it
an example is RPG-7 , you think how long its backfire lethal , and how long it leave a scorch mark behind it and how long it will injure you


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## mohsen

satellite imagery of attack on Ain al assad base:

14MB picture:
https://imadl.ir/Satellite imagery/...c missiles strike on Ain-al-assad base FA.jpg

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## Stryker1982

Shawnee said:


> Killing an 80ish year old leader who can be easily replaced likely by harsher, more anti-west, more mercurial and less conservative leader is a pure loss for them.
> 
> Khamenei is the soul behind not publicizing Iranian nuclear and missile power for his own reasons.


Wonder what would happen if Raisi was in charge


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## AmirPatriot

New article: First Zohair and Salman, now Raafe. Iran's ballistic missile development has kicked into a new phase, using cutting edge technologies that provide a dramatic leap in performance.









Iran's Composite Project


The recent Raafe rocket motor test indicates the next trend in Iran's ballistic missile development.




irangeomil.blogspot.com

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## sha ah

The Emiratis are scared out of their wits after the recent Houthi drone strikes on Abu Dhabi. Recently the Houthis have sent out a message, requesting people to avoid the Burj Khalifa. This puts an excessive amount of anxiety and pressure on the UAE. Obviously one solution would be to acquire an air defense system, but that will take some time. In the meanwhile they're completely vulnerable to any and all attacks.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483923573970550787

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## Stryker1982

AmirPatriot said:


> New article: First Zohair and Salman, now Raafe. Iran's ballistic missile development has kicked into a new phase, using cutting edge technologies that provide a dramatic leap in performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's Composite Project
> 
> 
> The recent Raafe rocket motor test indicates the next trend in Iran's ballistic missile development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irangeomil.blogspot.com


I feel like something big will come this year of 2022.

New solid fuel missile,
SAT launches by IRGC sat program beginning to mature and prepare for a series of launches, now that a good SLV can be created.
other

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## Messerschmitt

Stryker1982 said:


> I feel like something big will come this year of 2022.
> 
> New solid fuel missile,
> SAT launches by IRGC sat program beginning to mature and prepare for a series of launches, now that a good SLV can be created.
> other


Hopefully a more modern replacement for the Sejjil MRBM which allows for a heavier payload similar to the Khorramshahr MRBM.

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## sha ah

North Koreas latest missile reached MACH 10 - 10 times the speed of sound!









North Korea's latest missile reached Mach 10: Seoul


'More advanced' test follows condemnation and skepticism of Jan. 5 launch




asia.nikkei.com


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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484633446878257157


----------



## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> Hopefully a more modern replacement for the Sejjil MRBM which allows for a heavier payload similar to the Khorramshahr MRBM.


Indeed,
It would make sense that the Sejjil will be discontinued in favor of a new Raafe based missile. Once enough Raafe based missiles are made, likely with 2000km range, theirs no need to maintain the Sejjils. The cost of a new fuel replacement seems unneeded.

The composite process should make the production faster and cheaper, so the cost limitation has been reduced alot. They can make many times more Raafe based missiles than Sejjil. Looking forwards to see what's in store!

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## Maula Jatt

Stryker1982 said:


> *Just asking for a friend.*
> 
> View attachment 803478


Damn this sounds like PAF and Thier doctrine 🤣🤣

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## AmirPatriot

Stryker1982 said:


> I feel like something big will come this year of 2022.
> 
> New solid fuel missile,
> SAT launches by IRGC sat program beginning to mature and prepare for a series of launches, now that a good SLV can be created.
> other


When IRGC launched Qased, they said their intention was to move to a fully solid-fuelled SLV. So a test launch this year is quite possible.

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## QWECXZ

Guys, what do you think about this thread?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483157501101150213


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## arashkamangir

QWECXZ said:


> Guys, what do you think about this thread?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483157501101150213



Looks like the author referencing Fabian Hinz work from few years back. Fabian Hinz estimated a 2.5 m in diam engine.

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## Stryker1982

AmirPatriot said:


> When IRGC launched Qased, they said their intention was to move to a fully solid-fuelled SLV. So a test launch this year is quite possible.


Looks to be the case. And it's fair to assume it'll be a Raafe + Salman configuration of some sort.

But they likely won't unveil a ground attack version because of the political implications, or will do it discreetly. But I hope I'm wrong.

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## sha ah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485511757644931073Houthi military spokesman: Vital and important sites in Dubai were targeted by a large number of drones​

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485511165249835010

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485509228529950720

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485509948700246018
The Joint Operations Command of the Ministry of Defense announces the success of the F16 strike at 0410 hrs, Yemen time, of the destruction of the ballistic missile launcher Al Hazm Directorate in Al Jawf immediately after it launched two ballistic missiles at Abu Dhabi, which were intercepted successfully by air defenses Video attachment targeting the ballistic missile platform​

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485508055823708160

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485436606542761987








Watch UAE forces intercept incoming missiles over Abu Dhabi


Two missiles allegedly launched by Yemen’s Houthi rebels were intercepted by the UAE air defense forces over Abu Dhabi




www.rt.com

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## Sineva

sha ah said:


> The Joint Operations Command of the Ministry of Defense announces the success of the F16 strike at 0410 hrs, Yemen time, of the destruction of the ballistic missile launcher Al Hazm Directorate in Al Jawf immediately after it launched two ballistic missiles at Abu Dhabi, which were intercepted successfully by air defenses Video attachment targeting the ballistic missile platform​
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485508055823708160
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485436606542761987
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch UAE forces intercept incoming missiles over Abu Dhabi
> 
> 
> Two missiles allegedly launched by Yemen’s Houthi rebels were intercepted by the UAE air defense forces over Abu Dhabi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rt.com




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485568194421354496


----------



## Sineva

sha ah said:


> The Joint Operations Command of the Ministry of Defense announces the success of the F16 strike at 0410 hrs, Yemen time, of the destruction of the ballistic missile launcher Al Hazm Directorate in Al Jawf immediately after it launched two ballistic missiles at Abu Dhabi, which were intercepted successfully by air defenses Video attachment targeting the ballistic missile platform​
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485508055823708160
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485436606542761987
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch UAE forces intercept incoming missiles over Abu Dhabi
> 
> 
> Two missiles allegedly launched by Yemen’s Houthi rebels were intercepted by the UAE air defense forces over Abu Dhabi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rt.com


These clowns may have actually just blown up an asphalt factory.......  

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485610823145955328

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## aryobarzan

Sineva said:


> These clowns may have actually just blown up an asphalt factory.......
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485610823145955328


F 16s in the hands of camel herders...what do we expect...

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## Stryker1982

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485707391316512770
Second NOTAM about "rocket firing".

First one was from Jan 18-20

Possibility to me the testing of a new missile (probably solid fuel) is taking place(?)

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## Bahram Esfandiari

Sineva said:


> These clowns may have actually just blown up an asphalt factory.......
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485610823145955328


This reminds me of infamous "Scud hunt" during Desert Storm when the USAF showed footage of Tanker trucks being bomb and claimed that they were Scud TELs.

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## Sineva

Bahram Esfandiari said:


> This reminds me of infamous "Scud hunt" during Desert Storm when the USAF showed footage of Tanker trucks being bomb and claimed that they were Scud TELs.


Yes,this does rather look like it was something deliberate rather than your typical arab military incompetence. 
I suspect that the shock of the country coming under actual direct attack,and the resulting fear and uncertainty that it has clearly generated,both amongst the populace and foreign investors,might have led the government to do something like this in some half witted attempt to show that the uae government can act decisively,and that its military is stronk......er....."strong"  
Naturally its showing the exact opposite.........why-oh-why am I not surprised?.

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## sha ah

What do you expect from these tools ? They have the best technology money can buy. They literally have 1000x the budget of the Houthis but despite bombing Yemen all day everyday they can't prevent the Houthis from retaliating and hitting their vital industrial, commercial targets. 

Out of frustration, they target Yemeni civilians, women and children, hoping that ordinary people will take out their anger on the Houthis. What they don't understand is that ordinary people will retaliate and strike back at them. 

This is really embaressing for these camel herders. Trump even said it "They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. Without us by their side, they would be speaking Farsi in one week" Saudis and Emiratis are so sad.



aryobarzan said:


> F 16s in the hands of camel herders...what do we expect...

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## yavar

Iran IRGC multiple Ballistic Missile Maneuver (Emad,Sajil-2, Ghader with maneuverable turnable warhead, Dezful,Zulfiqar) Prophet-17

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## Hack-Hook

yavar said:


> Iran IRGC multiple Ballistic Missile Maneuver (Emad,Sajil-2, Ghader with maneuverable turnable warhead, Dezful,Zulfiqar) Prophet-17


did one of the vertical launched missiles fail to launch?


----------



## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486294832167686147

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## jauk

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486294832167686147


..and who was funding these atrocities by the Ba'athists? Hmmm? They are paying a heavy price today and will continue to do so.

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## Abid123

Dariush the Great said:


> I am sorry but i dont see North Korean nr.1 Generals getting killed even before they had no nukes. North Korea has a much higher deterrence than IR. Its a no brainer. Lay off the IR propaganda for a bit.





Dariush the Great said:


> And North Korea has artilerry deterrence over Seoul. Widen your military knowledge please.


I see you and SalarHaqq are discussing "deterrence" here. I am not a expert on this topic but I came across 2 articles that are somewhat related to what you are discussing. You can check them out if you want. I will post the links below.

Part 1:





Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com





Part 2:





Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com


----------



## Dariush the Great

Abid123 said:


> I see you and SalarHaqq are discussing "deterrence" here. I am not a expert on this topic but I came across 2 articles that are somewhat related to what you are discussing. You can check them out if you want. I will post the links below.
> 
> Part 1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part 2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com



To be honest, there was not much of a discussion with Salarhaqq, i found out the back and forth is not going anywhere and ceased any interactions with him on this matter. Unfortunately he is too brainwashed and extremely biased due to religious reasons. You can not reason with fanatic religious people. According to him, the Iranian government has done things 100% right and all good things we have is because of the supreme leader's benevolence. The reality however is very different and not to our liking. I am not a blind nationalist so obviously i can point out the faults in his arguments.

The articles you posted look very interesting, it seems to confirm (in general) the things i told to salarhaqq. 
Worth reading in depth.


----------



## SalarHaqq

Abid123 said:


> I see you and SalarHaqq are discussing "deterrence" here. I am not a expert on this topic but I came across 2 articles that are somewhat related to what you are discussing. You can check them out if you want. I will post the links below.
> 
> Part 1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part 2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com




If you pay attention, not a single one of my arguments was rooted in religious considerations, nor was I even referencing religion in any shape or form.

The notion that nuclear weapons deter enemies from even the slightest act of aggression is not accurate, as proven by concrete events of the past. British nuclear bombs did not deter Argentina from declaring war on the UK in 1982 and landing troops on territory London considers its own. Pakistani and Indian nuclear weapons did not prevent skirmishes and fighter jets being shot out of the skies. Nuclear powers are subject to attacks by guerilla forces backed by other states. Two or three threatening "Tweets" by Trump, and the Leader of nuclear-armed North Korea went to sit down with the clown and offered to give up his entire nuclear program in exchange for a lifting of sanctions - whereas non-nuclear Iran stood its ground and did not go to the negotiating table despite "maximum pressure" being exerted on it. And so on, and so forth.

So yes, if you look at the surface of things, if you restrict yourself to the symbolic level and to the realm of psy-ops, if you react in an emotive way to geostrategic developments, you might think Iran is weak(er than X, Y, Z)... But not if you grasp the entire depth of the situation, irregardless of any religious or ideological talking points.

Which is why arguments put forth by some anti-clerically inclined commenters are regularly fraught with issues of logic. Like suggesting Iran's Supreme Leader was "coerced" by the US and Isra"el" to impose a 2000 km limit on Iranian BM's, but leaving out that to any American president, Isra"el" matters just as much if not more than Washington D.C.. Or conveniently forgetting that the same Supreme Leader ordered an extension of Iran's missile range to 4000 km with the Khorramshahr BM, which was unveiled years ago. Not knowing what to do with the latest demonstrations of ICBM technology and being forced to resort to absurdities such as that "scientists" or the IRGC developed these against the will of the Supreme Leader, when in fact it's of course the Leader and nobody else who gave the military the go ahead for producing these items.

Or take an argument like the one that claims Iran is "afraid" to build nuclear weapons because if it set out to do so, the US would strike and weaken the IRGC... But since those who make such arguments also believe that nukes are the ultimate weapon of invincibility, any weakening of the IRGC in this scenario would thus be temporary and wouldn't last more than a few weeks until the first nuclear device is assembled, after which the IRGC would become untouchable for all eternity, by the logic of those who hold such views. In other terms, this "weakening", which could only be temporary, would be fully worth it and thus, fear of the IRGC getting weakened for a while could never deter Iran from going for nukes if really deemed necessary.

At the end of the day, it's the end result that counts. If like takfiris you believe there's a "secret under the table alliance between Rafidha and Jews" and that the intense conflict between Iran and the US is "bogus", or that Washington does not actually seek to violently overthrow the Islamic Republic and change the status quo in Iran, then well, you're in dire need of medical care. If however you know what's going on and how rabid, intense and vivid zio-American enmity is towards Iran, and how impatient they've been to carry out "regime change" in Tehran, then you need to look at the result first and foremost. What happens along the way, is secondary.

The most respected local user in terms of military-technical knowledge of Iranian forces is PeeD. And as far as I understand, PeeD believes in conventional counter-force. Meaning that Iran has not just successfully deterred her enemies from a conventional military aggression, but is in the process of ensuring deterrence even against hypothetical nuclear strikes, and is doing so purely through conventional, asymmetrical means. I am fully convinced by the validity of this analysis, and I'm confident that most Iranian users would concur.

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## Blue In Green

SalarHaqq said:


> If you pay attention, not a single one of my arguments was rooted in religious considerations, nor was I even referencing religion in any shape or form.
> 
> The notion that nuclear weapons deter enemies from even the slightest act of aggression is not accurate, as proven by concrete events of the past. British nuclear bombs did not deter Argentina from declaring war on the UK in 1982 and landing troops on territory London considers its own. Pakistani and Indian nuclear weapons did not prevent skirmishes and fighter jets being shot out of the skies. Nuclear powers are subject to attacks by guerilla forces backed by other states. Two or three threatening "Tweets" by Trump, and the Leader of nuclear-armed North Korea went to sit down with the clown and offered to give up his entire nuclear program in exchange for a lifting of sanctions - whereas non-nuclear Iran stood its ground and did not go to the negotiating table. And so on, and so forth.
> 
> So yes, if you look at the surface of things, if you restrict yourself to the symbolic level and to the realm of psy-ops, if you react in an emotive way to geostrategic developments, you might think Iran is weak(er than X, Y, Z)... But not if you grasp the entire depth of the situation, irregardless of any religious or ideological talking points.
> 
> Which is why the arguments of the anti-IR people are systematically fraught with issues of logic. Like claiming Iran's Supreme Leader was "forced" by the US and Isra"el" to impose a 2000 km limit on Iranian BM's, but leaving out that to any American president, Isra"el" matters just as much if not more than Washington D.C.. Or conveniently forgetting that the same Supreme Leader ordered an extension of Iran's missile range to 4000 km with the Khorramshahr, which was unveiled years ago. Not knowing what to do with the latest demonstrations of ICBM technology and being forced to resort to absurdities such as that "scientists" or the IRGC developed and showed these to the public against the will of the Supreme Leader.
> 
> Or take an argument like the one that claims Iran is "afraid" to build nuclear weapons because if it set out to do so, the US would strike and weaken the IRGC... But since those who make such arguments also believe that nukes are the ultimate weapon of invincibility, any weakening of the IRGC in this scenario would thus be temporary and wouldn't last more than a few weeks until the first nuclear device is assembled, after which the IRGC would become untouchable for all eternity, by the logic of those who hold such views. In other terms, this "weakening", which could only be temporary, would be fully worth it and thus, fear of the IRGC getting weakened for a while could never deter Iran from going for nukes.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's the end result that counts. If like takfiris you believe there's a "secret under the table alliance between Rafidha and Jews" and that the intense conflict between Iran and the US is "bogus", or that Washington does not actually seek to overthrow the Islamic Republic and change the status quo in Iran, then well, you're in dire need of medical care. If however you know what's going on and how rabid, intense and vivid zio-American enmity is towards Iran, and how impatient they've been to carry out "regime change" in Tehran, then you need to look at the result first and foremost. What happens along the way, is secondary.
> 
> The most respected local user in terms of military-technical knowledge of Iranian forces is PeeD. And as far as I understand, PeeD believes in conventional counter-force. Meaning that Iran has not just successfully deterred her enemies from a conventional military aggression, but is in the process of ensuring deterrence even against hypothetical nuclear strikes by purely conventional, asymmetrical means. I am fully convinced by the validity of this analysis, and I'm confident that most Iranian users would concur.



I also concur.

IRGC-AEROSPACE forces has reached a level of conventional-counterforce that no other nation of Iran's type can or has matched. The sheer quantity of missiles being produced and put into service from year to year is astonishing. We can point to countless examples of missile cities, we can cite recent articles quoting American defense officials or show footage of underground BM bases but the end point still remains the same. Iran has achieved a conventional deterrent that ensures Iran's territorial integrity/sovereignty from foreign aggressors and their mighty nukes. Undoubtedly in the future we will see Iran greatly expand its nuclear infrastructure, much to the dismay of the Zionist entity, but by then (just like right now) they will only bitch and moan. After-all, their American attack-dog is only becoming more irrelevant as the months and years roll on.

As it stands, Iran has weathered the worst of what the Zionists and Americans can dish out short of all out war. So I seriously don't know what the issue is about.

*Iran has attained conventional deterrent due to its massive and ever expanding ballistic missile/cruise-missile/drone apparatus. *

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## R Wing

SalarHaqq said:


> If you pay attention, not a single one of my arguments was rooted in religious considerations, nor was I even referencing religion in any shape or form.
> 
> The notion that nuclear weapons deter enemies from even the slightest act of aggression is not accurate, as proven by concrete events of the past. British nuclear bombs did not deter Argentina from declaring war on the UK in 1982 and landing troops on territory London considers its own. Pakistani and Indian nuclear weapons did not prevent skirmishes and fighter jets being shot out of the skies. Nuclear powers are subject to attacks by guerilla forces backed by other states. Two or three threatening "Tweets" by Trump, and the Leader of nuclear-armed North Korea went to sit down with the clown and offered to give up his entire nuclear program in exchange for a lifting of sanctions - whereas non-nuclear Iran stood its ground and did not go to the negotiating table. And so on, and so forth.
> 
> So yes, if you look at the surface of things, if you restrict yourself to the symbolic level and to the realm of psy-ops, if you react in an emotive way to geostrategic developments, you might think Iran is weak(er than X, Y, Z)... But not if you grasp the entire depth of the situation, irregardless of any religious or ideological talking points.
> 
> Which is why the arguments of the anti-IR people are systematically fraught with issues of logic. Like claiming Iran's Supreme Leader was "forced" by the US and Isra"el" to impose a 2000 km limit on Iranian BM's, but leaving out that to any American president, Isra"el" matters just as much if not more than Washington D.C.. Or conveniently forgetting that the same Supreme Leader ordered an extension of Iran's missile range to 4000 km with the Khorramshahr, which was unveiled years ago. Not knowing what to do with the latest demonstrations of ICBM technology and being forced to resort to absurdities such as that "scientists" or the IRGC developed and showed these to the public against the will of the Supreme Leader.
> 
> Or take an argument like the one that claims Iran is "afraid" to build nuclear weapons because if it set out to do so, the US would strike and weaken the IRGC... But since those who make such arguments also believe that nukes are the ultimate weapon of invincibility, any weakening of the IRGC in this scenario would thus be temporary and wouldn't last more than a few weeks until the first nuclear device is assembled, after which the IRGC would become untouchable for all eternity, by the logic of those who hold such views. In other terms, this "weakening", which could only be temporary, would be fully worth it and thus, fear of the IRGC getting weakened for a while could never deter Iran from going for nukes.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's the end result that counts. If like takfiris you believe there's a "secret under the table alliance between Rafidha and Jews" and that the intense conflict between Iran and the US is "bogus", or that Washington does not actually seek to overthrow the Islamic Republic and change the status quo in Iran, then well, you're in dire need of medical care. If however you know what's going on and how rabid, intense and vivid zio-American enmity is towards Iran, and how impatient they've been to carry out "regime change" in Tehran, then you need to look at the result first and foremost. What happens along the way, is secondary.
> 
> The most respected local user in terms of military-technical knowledge of Iranian forces is PeeD. And as far as I understand, PeeD believes in conventional counter-force. Meaning that Iran has not just successfully deterred her enemies from a conventional military aggression, but is in the process of ensuring deterrence even against hypothetical nuclear strikes by purely conventional, asymmetrical means. I am fully convinced by the validity of this analysis, and I'm confident that most Iranian users would concur.





Blue In Green said:


> I also concur.
> 
> IRGC-AEROSPACE forces has reached a level of conventional-counterforce that no other nation of Iran's type can or has matched. The sheer quantity of missiles being produced and put into service from year to year is astonishing. We can point to countless examples of missile cities, we can cite recent articles quoting American defense officials or show footage of underground BM bases but the end point still remains the same. Iran has achieved a conventional deterrent that ensures Iran's territorial integrity/sovereignty from foreign aggressors and their mighty nukes. Undoubtedly in the future we will see Iran greatly expand its nuclear infrastructure, much to the dismay of the Zionist entity, but by then (just like right now) they will only bitch and moan. After-all, their American attack-dog is only becoming more irrelevant as the months and years roll on.
> 
> As it stands, Iran has weathered the worst of what the Zionists and Americans can dish out short of all out war. So I seriously don't know what the issue is about.
> 
> *Iran has attained conventional deterrent due to its massive and ever expanding ballistic missile/cruise-missile/drone apparatus. *



Shocked to see this level of discussion on PDF --- it's refreshing and gives me hope that this forum may actually be worth staying on. Keep it up, guys.

All nations must build highly effective deterrence down to the 'gray zone' (under the threshold of open/conventional conflict). 

If you have nukes, your adversary will switch to limited conventional options (under the threshold of nuclear response).
When you build conventional counter-force options, your adversary will switch to sub-conventional options (under the threshold of a limited conventional response, unless one wants to test the escalation ladder).
When you build gray zone capacities, then you have proper full-spectrum deterrence. This means heavy investments in intel/spec ops/cyber, etc., and I'm glad to see that Iran has realized this faster than many other developing / middle-income countries.

One of the fun things about modeling deterrence is that beyond assumptions of 'rational actors' (those that understand costs and payoffs, etc.), there is a huge element of leadership and cultural psychology. The one reason I like hardliners is that they understand _realpolitik_ and deterrence between than those who subscribe to abstract delusions about liberalism, cooperation, and the market-will-solve-everything approach.

Just my 2c.

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## Dariush the Great

Blue In Green said:


> I also concur.
> 
> IRGC-AEROSPACE forces has reached a level of conventional-counterforce that no other nation of Iran's type can or has matched. The sheer quantity of missiles being produced and put into service from year to year is astonishing. We can point to countless examples of missile cities, we can cite recent articles quoting American defense officials or show footage of underground BM bases but the end point still remains the same. Iran has achieved a conventional deterrent that ensures Iran's territorial integrity/sovereignty from foreign aggressors and their mighty nukes. Undoubtedly in the future we will see Iran greatly expand its nuclear infrastructure, much to the dismay of the Zionist entity, but by then (just like right now) they will only bitch and moan. After-all, their American attack-dog is only becoming more irrelevant as the months and years roll on.
> 
> As it stands, Iran has weathered the worst of what the Zionists and Americans can dish out short of all out war. So I seriously don't know what the issue is about.
> 
> *Iran has attained conventional deterrent due to its massive and ever expanding ballistic missile/cruise-missile/drone apparatus. *


I really suggest you to open a dictionary ASAP and read what ''deterrence'' literally means. If you are talking about semi or a quarter of a deterrence then perhaps you might have a point. Do you realize the only thing that is left is an attack on Iranian mainland OPENLY (covertly they have done this). Like i said in my previous posts, IRGC is not at fault here, they are doing their best with limited resources they got. The problem is the political decisions made by a few, especially Khamenei. In my opinion, everything has to be done for the interest of the ''nezaam''. If there is any threat to the stability and longevity of the nezaam they will do whatever in their power to cancel that threat. You can think of giving concessions, negotiating with the devil once again (yes, sitting with the same thugs that carried out an open attack on Iran on Jan.2020) etc.
If you are interested in reading and understanding the view of all sides, you can read the two articles posted above by user Abid123.

Conclusion : Iran has not yet reached full deterrence against the USA/Israel. If you believe otherwise you are free to live in your dreamworld while the real world plays out very differently.

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## QWECXZ

Dariush the Great said:


> I really suggest you to open a dictionary ASAP and read what ''deterrence'' literally means. If you are talking about semi or a quarter of a deterrence then perhaps you might have a point. Do you realize the only thing that is left is an attack on Iranian mainland OPENLY (covertly they have done this). Like i said in my previous posts, IRGC is not at fault here, they are doing their best with limited resources they got. The problem is the political decisions made by a few, especially Khamenei. In my opinion, everything has to be done for the interest of the ''nezaam''. If there is any threat to the stability and longevity of the nezaam they will do whatever in their power to cancel that threat. You can think of giving concessions, negotiating with the devil once again (yes, sitting with the same thugs that carried out an open attack on Iran on Jan.2020) etc.
> If you are interested in reading and understanding the view of all sides, you can read the two articles posted above by user Abid123.
> 
> Conclusion : Iran has not yet reached full deterrence against the USA/Israel. If you believe otherwise you are free to live in your dreamworld while the real world plays out very differently.


Dude, why do you waste your time with this nonsense? It is crystal clear that you are right.

I'm really surprised to read nonsense of this level on PDF from mature Iranian members. I feel like I am in a kindergarten. They killed Soleimani and took full responsibility for it and even called him a terrorist and a danger to the world. They treated him like Bin Laden. The US would've never done that to the Soviet Union, or even today's Russia or today's China. People who think that Iran has established deterrence against the US are not only delusional, but they are plain stupid and retarded. It's just as simple as that. No offense to any of our members here though.

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## Dariush the Great

QWECXZ said:


> Dude, why do you waste your time with this nonsense? It is crystal clear that you are right.
> 
> I'm really surprised to read nonsense of this level on PDF from mature Iranian members. I feel like I am in a kindergarten. They killed Soleimani and took full responsibility for it and even called him a terrorist and a danger to the world. They treated him like Bin Laden. The US would've never done that to the Soviet Union, or even today's Russia or today's China. People who think that Iran has established deterrence against the US are not only delusional, but they are plain stupid and retarded. It's just as simple as that. No offense to any of our members here though.


You are right, it is really time wasting. The ignore button comes in handy.


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## Blue In Green

Dariush the Great said:


> I really suggest you to open a dictionary ASAP and read what ''deterrence'' literally means. If you are talking about semi or a quarter of a deterrence then perhaps you might have a point. Do you realize the only thing that is left is an attack on Iranian mainland OPENLY (covertly they have done this). Like i said in my previous posts, IRGC is not at fault here, they are doing their best with limited resources they got. The problem is the political decisions made by a few, especially Khamenei. In my opinion, everything has to be done for the interest of the ''nezaam''. If there is any threat to the stability and longevity of the nezaam they will do whatever in their power to cancel that threat. You can think of giving concessions, negotiating with the devil once again (yes, sitting with the same thugs that carried out an open attack on Iran on Jan.2020) etc.
> If you are interested in reading and understanding the view of all sides, you can read the two articles posted above by user Abid123.
> 
> Conclusion : Iran has not yet reached full deterrence against the USA/Israel. If you believe otherwise you are free to live in your dreamworld while the real world plays out very differently.



Fair enough, your acknowledgement of my point of "relative deterrence" is duly-noted, moreover I'm under no delusion, Iran's solution to this problem of deterrence isn't perfect nor is it ideal. I was and still am a proponent (I've talked about it many times in the past on PDF) of Iran acquiring a large nuclear arsenal since her enemies plan on using WMDs against Iranian civilians and cities the first chance they get and quite frankly, conventional BMs equipped with HE warheads (no matter how heavy) will never achieve the same *overall *retaliatory effect that a nuclear device could. But then again, Iran is a special example of achieving deterrence without the *pressing* need for a nuclear arsenal due to the unstoppable momentum built around domestic missile/drone production and their practical use in state-to-state conflicts (cite the many uses of Iranian made drones and missile to strike enemy assets in tit-for-tat operations).

Every time I think about IRI changing pace and going for nukes, the specter of how to deal with a now nullified BM fleet always comes to mind once Nuclear warheads are implemented fleet-wide. The entire allure of a massive BM infrastructure was that Iran can and will be able to use them without too much fear of a nuclear response. Thus allowing Iran to utilize hard-to-defeat conventional weapons in order to attack an enemies critical infrastructure in the absence of modern air-assets. This is what has created the "conventional counter-force deterrence" we talk about today. IRGC is doing what it knows best in this regard. Truth be told, I'm sort of torn, well..... I'm actually REALLY torn on just how many missiles Iran has and what threshold (numerically) is actually needed to ensure a conventional deterrent in the first-place. All of this totally hinges on just how many missiles Iran produces year-on-year. If the number is too low, then any significant war that drags on for too long will see Iran irreversibly weakened by a now depleted BM stock (and battered domestic weapons production infrastructure), but if the number is high enough then enemies will stay at bay for the time-being thus allowing Iran to continue expanding its arsenal unabated.

You do bring up a pretty important point, one that we both agreed on in the past when Soleimani was murdered. The Iranian government tends to err on the side of caution when it comes to decisions that could quite possibly end or greatly harm the I.R.I as we know it. It's no secret that Iranian officials would want to hold onto the power they have and will only go so far but I guess that's more of subjective take since what one considers far enough or not enough is up to the individual. I've personally came to the conclusion that the IRGC launched a covert operation against the USAF in Afghanistan, downing the E11-A as a covert retaliation for Soleimani's murder and the strike against Ain Al-Assad was the overt operation meant to re-establish relative deterrence and save public face in the light of that horrible event. Obviously neither operation can make up for the massive symbolic/tactical loss that Soleimani assassination brought. I still think Iran should have launched a more comprehensive strike against Ain-Al Assad, killing dozens of U.S. soldiers *intentionally *rather than trying to mitigate the damage but hey, I'm just an anonymous user on a niche military forum lol.

The deterrence Iran has achieved isn't ideal Dariush-jan, it's at best relative.

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## Dariush the Great

Iran Ballistic Missile cluster munition warhead (RV), Qader-S MRBM ایران کلاهک خوشه ای/ بارانی موشک​

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## Stryker1982

Conventional deterrence with regards to missile corps is not just a quantitative issue, but a range issue as well, another handicap that has been self-imposed. Much like the nuclear issue.


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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> Conventional deterrence with regards to missile corps is not just a quantitative issue, but a range issue as well, another handicap that has been self-imposed. Much like the nuclear issue.



I think with the introduction of the Khorammshahr, the issue of range really isn't a problem any longer (if it even was one to begin with lol). We know, for example, that missile has a really heavy warhead (1,800kg for Khorammshahr-1, and 1,500kg for Khorammshahr-2) which greatly reduces its range but the IRGC could very easily kit the missile out to carry a much lighter warhead for whatever purpose. Couple that with the recent RAAFE rocket motor test (~68-60t of thrust, also dual use technology) and it's quite clear to see that Iran's self-imposed 2,000km missile limit is nothing but PR.

Undoubtedly the IRGC AEROSPACE forces are working on next-generation BM designs that will further increase the range and capabilities of Iran's missile fleet.

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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> I really suggest you to open a dictionary ASAP and read what ''deterrence'' literally means. If you are talking about semi or a quarter of a deterrence then perhaps you might have a point.



I never came across terms such as 'semi-deterrence' or 'quarter deterrence' in geopolitical and international relations literature so far.



Dariush the Great said:


> Do you realize the only thing that is left is an attack on Iranian mainland OPENLY (covertly they have done this).



This isn't the appropriate way of looking at geopolitical conflict. Wars are not fought to kill or destroy more than the opposite side, nor to humiliate an adversary, nor for prestige reasons... They are solely fought to attain a political objective, no more, no less. Since Clausewitz at most, this is a well demonstrated and universally accepted truth in academia.

The thing that's left for the US and zionist regimes, is to reach their basic objectives to start with: namely, to suppress Iran because of her Resistance policies first and foremost (and indeed, these policies are neither "bogus" nor "harmless", no matter the inanities that takfiris or individuals with a similar discourse will utter), and then because the regime in Tel Aviv cannot tolerate large any nation-state with considerable potentials in its neighborhood.

Military aggression is not the only possible means to carry through this agenda, by the way. But no matter how they tried, Iran's enemies have failed in implementing their program. In other terms, the enemy has not been successful in the least.



Dariush the Great said:


> Like i said in my previous posts, IRGC is not at fault here, they are doing their best with limited resources they got. The problem is the political decisions made by a few, especially Khamenei.



There's no justification for such a hypothesis. All arguments presented to this effect can be debunked.

* It was suggested that the enemy would try to "assassinate" the Supreme Leader if he orders to go ahead with manufacturing nuclear weapons. This scenario, however, is quite removed from reality. Hajj Qassem was martyred in an absolute surprise attack - there were no prior indications nor was there a particular reason to believe he would be targeted during that specific trip of his to Iraq. Plus, he was a soldier who went to the frontlines all the time - hence everyone in the system was aware of and accepted the risk that he could get martyred at any given moment. Thirdly, he was martyred outside Iran's borders in an entirely non-protected setting.

To compare this with the extreme levels of security enjoyed by the person of the Supreme Leader on Iranian soil is baseless. Underground facilities and air defence systems like those believed to be solid enough to protect the Iranian nuclear infrastructure from enemy strikes in case Iran decided to go for nuclear weapons, would be just as apt in protecting a key individual.

Furthermore, if the Supreme Leader ordered to build nuclear weapons and if this really entailed such a huge risk for his personal safety, then this risk would be known in advance, and would allow Iran to prepare accordingly - contrary to shahid Soleimani's case. And therefore, protective measures for the Supreme Leader would be enhanced to such a degree that it would make it impossible for the enemy's assassination teams to infiltrate the multiple, rock solid security layers set up for this specific occasion.

And let's not obfuscate the fact that these security measures would only need to last a couple of weeks - which is the time required for Iran to break out and assemble a nuclear device. After which, according to those who make the contentions under discussion, there'd be no more risk anymore for the Supreme Leader. Because, so they argue, nuclear weapons provide absolute deterrence against assassination of political and military figures. And yes, the Islamic Republic of Iran is perfectly capable of effectively shielding her Supreme Leader from any assassination attempts for a period of some weeks, even months or more if required.

Also, if the Democratic People's Republic of Korea was as much if not more of a threat to US hegemony, as claimed previously by the quoted user, and if the regime in Washington will proceed to assassinate leaders from rival states the moment they decide to go nuclear, why then was Kim Il-Sung spared?

No matter how one will look at it: the claim that Iran's Supreme Leader is being deterred from ordering to build nukes because of "fear for his life" does not hold water.

* The second argument presented in support of the claim, was that the US would strike and weaken the IRGC. And that this weakening was considered too high a price to pay in exchange for the acquisition of nuclear weapon. Weapons which, so the quoted user claims, provide absolute deterrence against any form of aggression. I hope everyone sees the self-contradicting nature of this reasoning: for if nukes make any act of aggression impossible, then what relevance does a temporary weakening of the IRGC have in such a context? Strictly none at all, given that only a few weeks after the hypothetical strikes, the IRGC would be armed with nukes. So this claim doesn't work either.

* This is all without mentioning that nuclear weapons do not deter against all sorts of armed attacks or military-grade operations, as proven by the *1982 Falklands war *between the UK and Argentina, by the *1999 Kargil conflict* between India and Pakistan, and by Islamic Iran's support for *Resistance forces* conducting armed attacks against the zionist military in Palestine and Lebanon, as well as against the US military in Iraq. So it is necessary to insist: *nuclear weapons do not deter against any and all forms of hostile armed action. *



Dariush the Great said:


> In my opinion, everything has to be done for the interest of the ''nezaam''. If there is any threat to the stability and longevity of the nezaam they will do whatever in their power to cancel that threat.



Problem with this view is that the survival of the Islamic Republic and Iran's survival are inextricably linked and inseparable from each other, given the nature of the enemy's agenda.

Second problem is that if nuclear weapons strengthen a country's national defence, they strengthen the political system of that country *even more* against foreign military aggression.



Dariush the Great said:


> You can think of giving concessions, negotiating with the devil once again (yes, sitting with the same thugs that carried out an open attack on Iran on Jan.2020) etc.
> If you are interested in reading and understanding the view of all sides, you can read the two articles posted above by user Abid123.



The Leader of the nuclear-armed DPRK, Kim Jong-Un, also thought of giving concessions. He offered Trump to completely give up Korea's nuclear weapons, no less, in exchange for a lifting of US-imposed sanctions.



Dariush the Great said:


> Conclusion : Iran has not yet reached full deterrence against the USA/Israel. If you believe otherwise you are free to live in your dreamworld while the real world plays out very differently.



This relativization of the concept of deterrence is inoperative, insofar as military aggression serves a political objective, and nothing else. Does the aggressor achieve its political objective, then the defending side's deterrence has failed. Does the aggressor hold back from resorting to the means necessary for reaching its previously defined geostrategic goals - assuming that like the US, it does possess these means in theory, then it's the aggressor which was successfully deterred by the defender.

This is how the concept of deterrence plays out in practice.

- - - - -



QWECXZ said:


> They killed Soleimani and took full responsibility for it and even called him a terrorist and a danger to the world. They treated him like Bin Laden.



When it comes to ordering the strike on shahid Soleimani, someone like Trump likely wouldn't have been deterred by Iranian nuclear weapons. Trump also threatened nuclear-armed North Korea with a military attack (his "fire and fury" Tweet in particular), and it worked fine: he got the meeting he wanted with Kim.

But, beyond the psy-ops, here's what really matters: how exactly did the cowardly attack on Hajj Qassem fulfill Washington's geostrategic aims vis a vis Iran? It didn't, and hence this is ultimately not relevant.



QWECXZ said:


> The US would've never done that to the Soviet Union, or even today's Russia or today's China.



But the Argentinians declared war on the UK, landed troops on territory London claims sovereignty over, and turned several British warships into blazing fireballs. They did all this to the UK despite Britain's large nuclear weapons arsenal, arsenal which did not deter Buenos Aires in the least.

Indian and Pakistani nukes did not prevent the armies of the two countries from clashing repeatedly, from killing each others' troops, from humiliatingly parading POW's in front of the cameras, in contravention of international laws and regulations.

It's interesting that Russia was cited though. Once upon a time, there was a much more powerful, much more intimidating version of present day Russia, known as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. However, where's the USSR today? Dwelling in the trash can of History. Defeated, territorially dismantled. Having the world's most massive stockpile of nukes (45.000 units) did not save the Soviet Union from being defeated by its rival. Leading us once again to conclude: nukes do not offer a fool-proof guarantee for survival.



QWECXZ said:


> People who think that Iran has established deterrence against the US are not only delusional, but they are plain stupid and retarded. It's just as simple as that. No offense to any of our members here though.











Iran's path to a second strike capability


The concept Interpretation of Irans new basing concept Non-nuclear states can have the highest conventional military capability but are alwa...




patarames.blogspot.com





- - - - -



Blue In Green said:


> You do bring up a pretty important point, one that we both agreed on in the past when Soleimani was murdered. The Iranian government tends to err on the side of caution when it comes to decisions that could quite possibly end or greatly harm the I.R.I as we know it. It's no secret that Iranian officials would want to hold onto the power they have and will only go so far but I guess that's more of subjective take since what one considers far enough or not enough is up to the individual.



Could you name one government that will knowingly endanger its own survival when carrying out an act of military retaliation? Thus, I'm not sure how the Islamic Republic has erred in this respect. But if the IR is foregoing nukes for the time being, that's not out of a fear of US aggression, as demonstrated above.

Also, how many states do you know whose leading figures put their lives at risk as much as IR leaders have done? How many terrorist attacks and attempts on their lives have they been subjected to since 1979? How many of them fought on the war fronts, compared to other countries? Heck, how many states are there in the world, whose leadership is brave enough to stand up to and seriously challenge American imperial hegemony? Four, five out of a hundred and ninety five? Let's not even mention Resistance against zionism, as that would reduce the number even more. So definitely, the IR leadership is on the daring side here.

But moreover, if the Islamic Republic is gone, Iran will be gone. Any hiatus in the authority of the central state will be mercilessly exploited by Iran's enemies to turn the country into a nightmare worse than Iraq, Syria, Libya and Afghanistan combined.



Blue In Green said:


> I've personally came to the conclusion that the IRGC launched a covert operation against the USAF in Afghanistan, downing the E11-A as a covert retaliation for Soleimani's murder



Agreed 100% on this observation. The Taleban had practically stopped their attacks on US forces over the last three years of NATO occupation, and they were never seen intercepting American aircraft with surface to air missiles before. Then all of a sudden, shortly after shahid Soleimani's martyrdom, a US military or intelligence aircraft is downed over Afghanistan...

But here's the question, brother: *where was US nuclear deterrence *when Iran had that aircraft hit? Some say CIA mastermind Michael D'Andrea ("Ayatollah Mike") was on board - even if he wasn't, this was not an ordinary aircraft. Where was America's nuclear deterrence when Iran struck the CIA compound at Arbil airport, Kurdish Autonomous Region of Iraq? When Iran, in all probability, eliminated high-ranking US military officers in PGCC countries (like the one who supposedly lost his life while "lacing his boots", so their official statement)?

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## _Nabil_

QWECXZ said:


> Dude, why do you waste your time with this nonsense? It is crystal clear that you are right.
> 
> I'm really surprised to read nonsense of this level on PDF from mature Iranian members. I feel like I am in a kindergarten. They killed Soleimani and took full responsibility for it and even called him a terrorist and a danger to the world. They treated him like Bin Laden. The US would've never done that to the Soviet Union, or even today's Russia or today's China. People who think that Iran has established deterrence against the US are not only delusional, but they are plain stupid and retarded. It's just as simple as that. No offense to any of our members here though.


Regarding Russia, the US is slapping them for almost 5 years ( closing consultes, expelling attachés, imposing sanctions, interfering with opposition, threating them every second day,....) Still no reaction of super power Russia.

I know you want the best, in every field for your country, but unfortunately Iran can't do much better at its situation, it's already a miracle what's already done.

As long as some indicators are good as eduction, RD, infrastructure, scientific papers,.... everything will follow.

Just be patient, that's the only thing I see different from you and dariush vs SalarHaqq (bitter and eager Vs optimist and patient) but both view are right.

Sorry if you can feel that I'm interfering

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## mohsen

QWECXZ said:


> Dude, why do you waste your time with this nonsense? It is crystal clear that you are right.
> 
> I'm really surprised to read nonsense of this level on PDF from mature Iranian members. I feel like I am in a kindergarten. They killed Soleimani and took full responsibility for it and even called him a terrorist and a danger to the world. They treated him like Bin Laden. The US would've never done that to the Soviet Union, or even today's Russia or today's China. People who think that Iran has established deterrence against the US are not only delusional, but they are plain stupid and retarded. It's just as simple as that. No offense to any of our members here though.


Attacking Suleimani was a political miscalculation not military, that was due to a signal by traitors whose retreats against US demands had no boundary, the same mother f@ckers who were saying Iran shouldn't retaliate the assassination of Suleimani to prevent an escalating war with US.

In retaliation, Iran rained it's missiles on US base and officially announced it, that's something which no other country had done before, neither Russia or China or the dead Soviet Union (with all of their nuclear warheads) would have dared to do so.

It was Iran's deterrence which prevented the US from responding to our missile attack, it was trembling Trump who forced to hide their casualties and destruction to prevent a war in which according to themselves they would have lost.

If you follow the news, *It's US commanders who want to establish a deterrence against Iran,* and that's something which they haven't succeeded so far. that's the reality of ongoing incidents in middle east for those who are not disconnected from the reality.

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## Blue In Green

SalarHaqq said:


> I never came across terms such as 'semi-deterrence' or 'quarter deterrence' in geopolitical and international relations literature.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a wrong way of looking at geopolitical conflict. Wars are not fought to kill or destroy more than the opposite side, nor to humiliate an adversary, nor for prestige reasons... They are solely fought to attain a political objective, no more, no less. Since Clausewitz at most, this is a well demonstrated and universally accepted truth in academia.
> 
> The thing that's left for the US and zionist regimes, is to reach their objectives to start with: namely, to suppress Iran because of her Resistance policies first and foremost (and indeed, these policies are neither "bogus" nor "harmless", no matter what inanities takfiris or individuals with a similar discourse will say), and then because the regime in Tel Aviv cannot tolerate large nation-states with considerable potentials in its neighborhood.
> 
> Military aggression is not the only possible means to impose this agenda. But no matter how they tried, Iran's enemy have failed in implementing their program. In other terms, the enemy has not been successful in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no justification for such a suggestion. All arguments presented to this effect can be debunked.
> 
> * It was suggested that the enemy would try to "assassinate" the Supreme Leader if he orders to go ahead with manufacturing nuclear weapons. This hypothetical scenario, however, is a quite removed from reality. Hajj Qassem was martyred in an absolute surprise attack - there were no prior indications nor was there a particular reason to believe he would be targeted during that specific trip of his to Iraq. Plus, he was a soldier who went to the frontlines all the time - hence everyone in the system was aware of and accepted the risk that he could get martyred at any given moment. Thirdly, he was martyred outside Iran's borders in an entirely non-protected setting.
> 
> To compare this with the extreme levels of security enjoyed by the person of the Supreme Leader on Iranian soil is baseless. Underground facilities and air defence systems like those believed to be solid enough to protect the Iranian nuclear infrastructure from enemy strikes in case Iran decided to go for nuclear weapons, would be exactly as apt in protecting a key person.
> 
> Furthermore, if the Supreme Leader ordered to build nuclear weapons and if this really entailed such a huge risk for his personal safety, then this risk would be known in advance - contrary to shahid Soleimani's case. And therefore, protective measures for the Supreme Leader would be enhanced to such a degree that it would make it impossible for the enemy's assassination teams to infiltrate the multiple, rock solid security layers set up for this specific occasion.
> 
> And let's not obfuscate the fact that these security measures would only need to last a few weeks - which is the time required for Iran to break out and assemble a nuclear device. After that, according to those who make the contentions under discussion, there'd be no more risk for the Supreme Leader because, so they argue, nuclear weapons provide absolute deterrence against assassination of political and military figures. And yes, the Islamic Republic of Iran is perfectly capable of effectively shielding her Supreme Leader from any assassination attempts for a period of some weeks, even months or more if required.
> 
> Also, if the Democratic People's Republic of Korea was as much if not more of a threat to US hegemony, as claimed previously by the quoted user, and if the regime in Washington will proceed to assassinate leaders from rival states the moment they decide to go nuclear, why then was Kim Il-Sung spared?
> 
> No matter how one looks at it: the claim that Iran's Supreme Leader is being deterred from ordering to build nukes because of "fear for his life" does not hold water.
> 
> * The second argument presented in support of the claim, was that the US would strike and weaken the IRGC. And that this weakening was considered too high a price to pay in exchange for the acquisition of nuclear weapon. Weapons which, so the quoted user claims, provide absolute deterrence against any form of aggression. I hope everyone sees the self-contradicting nature of this type of reasoning: for if nukes make any act of aggression impossible, then what relevance does a temporary weakening of the IRGC have in this context? Strictly none at all, given that only a few weeks after the weakening strikes, the IRGC would be armed with nukes. So this claim does not work either.
> 
> * This is all without mentioning that nuclear weapons do not deter against all sorts of armed attacks or military-grade operations, as proven by the *1982 Falklands war *between the UK and Argentina, by the *1999 Kargil conflict* between India and Pakistan, and by Islamic Iran's support for *Resistance forces* conducting armed attacks against the zionist military in Palestine and Lebanon, as well as against the US military in Iraq. So it is necessary to insist: *no, nuclear weapons do not deter against any and all forms of hostile armed action. *
> 
> 
> 
> Problem with this view is that the survival of the Islamic Republic and Iran's survival are intrinsically linked and inseparable from each other, given the nature of the enemy's agenda.
> 
> Second problem is that if nuclear weapons strengthen a country's national defence, they strengthen the political system of that country *even more*.
> 
> 
> 
> The Leader of the nuclear-armed DPRK, Kim Jong-Un, also thought of giving concessions. He offered Trump to completely give up Korea's nuclear weapons, no less, in exchange for a lifting of sanctions.
> 
> 
> 
> This relativization of the concept of deterrence is inoperative, insofar as military aggression serves a political objective, and nothing else than that. Does the aggressor achieve its political objective, then the defending side's deterrence has failed. Does the aggressor hold back from resorting to the means necessary for reaching its previously defined geostrategic goals - assuming that like the US, it does possess these means in theory, then it's the aggressor which was successfully deterred by the defender.
> 
> This is how the concept of deterrence works.
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Someone like Trump likely wouldn't have been deterred by Iranian nuclear weapons, when it comes to ordering the strike on shahid Soleimani. Trump also threatened nuclear-armed North Korea with a military attack (his "fire and fury" Tweet), and it worked: he got the meeting he wanted with Kim.
> 
> But, beyond the psy-ops, here's what really counts: how exactly did the cowardly attack on Hajj Qassem fulfill Washington's geostrategic aims vis a vis Iran? It didn't, and hence this is ultimately not relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> But the Argentinians declared war on the UK, landed troops on territory London claims sovereignty over, and turned several British warships into blazing fireballs. They did all that to the UK despite Britain's large nuclear weapons arsenal, which did not deter Buenos Aires in the least.
> 
> Indian and Pakistani nukes did not prevent the armies of the two countries from clashing repeatedly, from killing each others' troops, from humiliatingly parading POW's in front of the cameras, in contravention of international law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's path to a second strike capability
> 
> 
> The concept Interpretation of Irans new basing concept Non-nuclear states can have the highest conventional military capability but are alwa...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patarames.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Can you name one government that will knowingly endanger its own survival when carrying out an act of military retaliation? So I'm not sure how the Islamic Republic has erred in this regard. But if the IR is foregoing nukes for the time being, that's not out of a fear of US aggression, as demonstrated above.
> 
> Also, how many states do you know whose leading figures put their lives at risk as much as IR leaders have? How many terrorist attacks have they been subjected to since 1979? How many of them fought at the war fronts, compared to other countries? Heck, how many states are there in the world, whose leadership is brave enough to stand up to zio-American imperial hegemony? Four, five out of a hundred and ninety five? So definitely, the IR leadership is on the daring side here.
> 
> But moreover, if the Islamic Republic is gone, Iran will be gone. Any hiatus in the authority of the central state will be exploited mercilessly by Iran's enemies to turn the country into a nightmare worse than Iraq, Syria, Libya and Afghanistan combined.





> Can you name one government that will knowingly endanger its own survival when carrying out an act of military retaliation? So I'm not sure how the Islamic Republic has erred in this regard. But if the IR is foregoing nukes for the time being, that's not out of a fear of US aggression, as demonstrated above.


---Please forgive me if I came off as hostile or rude, that isn't my intention. I hold yours and many others opinion on this forum with high-regard. So, respectively speaking, different strokes for different folks Salar-jan.

Whilst you view Iran's actions and policy decisions as being daring (as do I in certain respects). I *personally *think that some decisions made at the highest-levels can be considered as being more cautious in nature, hence why I said "err on the side of caution" in the first-place. Retrospectively, Iran has suffered many, *many* assassinations both domestically (Fakhrizadeh, and the 4-5 nuclear scientists, god rest their souls) and abroad (Hajj-Qassem Soleimani and his attaché, untold number of generals and IRGC soldiers in Syria/Lebanon/Iraq, etc,). All of which would have and still do constitute Iran taking the harshest of retaliatory acts yet the evidence on the ground, fully aside from other covert operations like the IRGC downing of USAF E11-A BACN and the remarkable strikes against critical economic assets of enemy states, points to Iran's reactions either being tame, totally none-existent or incompetent in nature (again, personally speaking). The "err on the side of caution" part is made within the context of assassinations, not in relation to the totality of Iran's overall policies and decisions made internally/externally. I should have made that more clear, so that is a mistake on my part, my apologies.


The Ain Al-Assad strike was a tremendous watershed moment for Iran, showcasing to the world that it can and will use its indigenously made pin-point accurate weapons to destroy whatever it is they chose to if need be in retaliation to grave actions taken against the Iranian-state by hostile forces. Yet the outcome was less-than ideal (personal take) given the gravity of the situation it was meant to address in the first-place. Hajj-Qassem outgrew his position as tactical battlefield commander/general on the ground. He was and is a symbol of juste resistance against tyranny and oppression, thusly his weight as a person who then transcended just being "one of us" needs to be taken into account since he became a true *hero.* So the *overt* operation naturally needed to be more all-encompassing with the specific goal to intentionally maim/harm/kill enemy soldiers, yet that didn't happen (at least not officially). As stated before, I truly do believe that the IRGC got blood-revenge for Soleimani and Co. by downing the E11-A BACN aircraft (1 of only 4 at the time) but the overt attack should have been more impactful, but I digress. I guess one can only hope that Sardar-Hajizadehs comments on the American military hiding the true extent of damage done to Ain Al-Assad is valid and just leaving it at that. But the damage done that we can see (personal take based on pictures both on the ground and via satellite/evidence) didn't seem to be all that impactful (erring on the side of caution). Iran could have fired many dozens more missiles yet they chose to seemingly mitigate the damage. Moreover, Iran still needs to settle-the-score, which I still think that Iran has a plan to go after key American military officials in the future. But it's all matter of opinion I guess, the nuances here matter.
Not much can really be said about the responses to specific assassinations, we all know very well by now that Iran's internal security of key personnel is woeful. Iran has regrettably lost many good, young and old scientists, engineers and commanders due to assassinations/sabotages with little retaliation (killing of key enemy personnel) to show for it. This is where the "incompetency" part of what I aforementioned comes into play (both with respects to the safety of important individuals and actions taken to avenge them). Shortly after Fakhrizadehs murder (done by extraordinary means, a remote controlled gun for god-sakes). An embarrassing _"assassination" _attempt was made by some individuals throwing a grenade at Israeli diplomats only to have those grenades hurt the attackers and leave the targets more-or-less unharmed. What else can be said? it was a sorry example of "revenge".........

Agreed on the nukes, Iran does not live in fear of a U.S./Israeli strike on its nuclear infrastructure any longer and would much rather enjoy its position as a nuclear weapons threshold state with all the benefits that comes with. Namely allowing the IRGC AEROSPACE force to use its vast BM arsenal without fear of a nuclear response, thus enabling it to be used in a conventional capacity on both a tactical and strategic level. Long has the time passed when Iran was at the mercy of the Zionist machine. If the I.R.I made the decisions of going for a nuclear arsenal, then there is absolutely nothing the West and their Zionist enclave can do about it. I've also held this position in the past here on PDF.

Everything else you correctly stated I agree with wholeheartedly.

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## SalarHaqq

Blue In Green said:


> ---Please forgive me if I came off as hostile or rude, that isn't my intention. I hold yours and many others opinion on this forum with high-regard. So, respectively speaking, different strokes for different folks Salar-jan.
> 
> Whilst you view Iran's actions and policy decisions as being daring (as do I in certain respects). I *personally *think that some decisions made at the highest-levels can be considered as being more cautious in nature, hence why I said "err on the side of caution" in the first-place. Retrospectively, Iran has suffered many, *many* assassinations both domestically (Fakhrizadeh, and the 4-5 nuclear scientists, god rest their souls) and abroad (Hajj-Qassem Soleimani and his attaché, untold number of generals and IRGC soldiers in Syria/Lebanon/Iraq, etc,). All of which would have and still do constitute Iran taking the harshest of retaliatory acts yet the evidence on the ground, fully aside from other covert operations like the IRGC downing of USAF E11-A BACN and the remarkable strikes against critical economic assets of enemy states, points to Iran's reactions either being tame, totally none-existent or incompetent in nature (again, personally speaking). The "err on the side of caution" part is made within the context of assassinations, not in relation to the totality of Iran's overall policies and decisions made internally/externally. I should have made that more clear, so that is a mistake on my part, my apologies.
> 
> 
> The Ain Al-Assad strike was a tremendous watershed moment for Iran, showcasing to the world that it can and will use its indigenously made pin-point accurate weapons to destroy whatever it is they chose to if need be in retaliation to grave actions taken against the Iranian-state by hostile forces. Yet the outcome was less-than ideal (personal take) given the gravity of the situation it was meant to address in the first-place. Hajj-Qassem outgrew his position as tactical battlefield commander/general on the ground. He was and is a symbol of juste resistance against tyranny and oppression, thusly his weight as a person who then transcended just being "one of us" needs to be taken into account since he became a true *hero.* So the *overt* operation naturally needed to be more all-encompassing with the specific goal to intentionally maim/harm/kill enemy soldiers, yet that didn't happen (at least not officially). As stated before, I truly do believe that the IRGC got blood-revenge for Soleimani and Co. by downing the E11-A BACN aircraft (1 of only 4 at the time) but the overt attack should have been more impactful, but I digress. I guess one can only hope that Sardar-Hajizadehs comments on the American military hiding the true extent of damage done to Ain Al-Assad is valid and just leaving it at that. But the damage done that we can see (personal take based on pictures both on the ground and via satellite/evidence) didn't seem to be all that impactful (erring on the side of caution). Iran could have fired many dozens more missiles yet they chose to seemingly mitigate the damage. Moreover, Iran still needs to settle-the-score, which I still think that Iran has a plan to go after key American military officials in the future. But it's all matter of opinion I guess, the nuances here matter.
> Not much can really be said about the responses to specific assassinations, we all know very well by now that Iran's internally security of key personnel is woeful. Iran has regrettably lost many good, young and old scientists, engineers and commanders due to assassinations/sabotages with little retaliation (killing of key enemy personnel) to show for it. This is where the "incompetency" part of what I aforementioned comes into play (both with respects to the safety of important individuals and actions taken to avenge them). Shortly after Fakhrizadehs murder (done by extraordinary means, a remote controlled gun for god-sakes). An embarrassing _"assassination" _attempt was made by some individuals throwing a grenade at Israeli diplomats only to have those grenades hurt the attackers and leave the targets more-or-less unharmed. What else can be said? it was a sorry example of "revenge".........
> 
> Agreed on the nukes, Iran does not live in fear of a U.S./Israeli strike on its nuclear infrastructure any longer and would much rather enjoy its position as a nuclear weapons threshold state with all the benefits that comes with. Namely allowing the IRGC AEROSPACE force to use its vast BM arsenal without fear of a nuclear response, thus enabling it to be used in a conventional capacity on both a tactical and strategic level. Long has the time passed when Iran was at the mercy of the Zionist machine. If the I.R.I made the decisions of going for a nuclear arsenal, then there is absolutely nothing the West and their Zionist enclave can do about it. I've also held this position in the past here on PDF.
> 
> Everything else you correctly stated I agree with wholeheartedly.



I don't take offense at your posts, brother. My apologies if my reply made you assume otherwise (in future, please don't).

Concerning Iran's retaliation to the assassinations: you correctly mentioned the E11-A BACN aircraft downed over Afghanistan, and there were other feats as well, like striking a CIA compound in Iraqi Kurdistan, and probably hitting US military officers stationed in PGCC countries. To me, the sum of these (in addition to Ayn al-Assad, where the US may very well be concealing G.I. deaths) constitute a worthy retaliation. When it comes to shahid Fakhrizadeh, don't forget the veteran Isra"el"i scientist who was killed under dubious circumstances, with zionists changing their explanation of the event over time.

Ultimately, other than in the psy-ops and propaganda department, the US and zionists cannot do a thing to Iran. Now if we, as observers, are going to confine ourselves to, or let ourselves be influenced by propaganda, then frankly what's the point? In reality, none of these assassinations and sabotage operations have managed to alter the geostrategic picture. Their think tanks are admitting as much, like user Mohsen correctly hinted to.

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## Stryker1982

7th missile test by Slim Kim.

Where is our test (

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## Dariush the Great

Stryker1982 said:


> 7th missile test by Slim Kim.
> 
> Where is our test (


The order from Khamenei has been to lay low as long these negotiations are ongoing. With all the brilliant talents and minds we have, i seriously doubt that we can not even make a few tests! These are all political decisions.

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## SalarHaqq

Dariush the Great said:


> The order from Khamenei has been to lay low as long these negotiations are ongoing. With all the brilliant talents and minds we have, i seriously doubt that we can not even make a few tests! These are all political decisions.



The order from Supreme Leader Khamenei has been to unveil* ICBM technology *in the middle of the negotiations, no less. As we witnessed a couple of days ago. Which represents a huge leap in Iranian missile development and policy.

Seyyed Khamenei's orders shook the enemy more than ordinary and repetitive BM tests would have.









North Korea Finds Its Missile Tests Have Lost Their Shock Value


In the past, missile tests have won Pyongyang diplomatic attention. This time might be different.




www.wsj.com

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## Blue In Green

SalarHaqq said:


> I never came across terms such as 'semi-deterrence' or 'quarter deterrence' in geopolitical and international relations literature so far.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't the appropriate way of looking at geopolitical conflict. Wars are not fought to kill or destroy more than the opposite side, nor to humiliate an adversary, nor for prestige reasons... They are solely fought to attain a political objective, no more, no less. Since Clausewitz at most, this is a well demonstrated and universally accepted truth in academia.
> 
> The thing that's left for the US and zionist regimes, is to reach their basic objectives to start with: namely, to suppress Iran because of her Resistance policies first and foremost (and indeed, these policies are neither "bogus" nor "harmless", no matter the inanities that takfiris or individuals with a similar discourse will utter), and then because the regime in Tel Aviv cannot tolerate large any nation-state with considerable potentials in its neighborhood.
> 
> Military aggression is not the only possible means to carry through this agenda, by the way. But no matter how they tried, Iran's enemies have failed in implementing their program. In other terms, the enemy has not been successful in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no justification for such a hypothesis. All arguments presented to this effect can be debunked.
> 
> * It was suggested that the enemy would try to "assassinate" the Supreme Leader if he orders to go ahead with manufacturing nuclear weapons. This scenario, however, is quite removed from reality. Hajj Qassem was martyred in an absolute surprise attack - there were no prior indications nor was there a particular reason to believe he would be targeted during that specific trip of his to Iraq. Plus, he was a soldier who went to the frontlines all the time - hence everyone in the system was aware of and accepted the risk that he could get martyred at any given moment. Thirdly, he was martyred outside Iran's borders in an entirely non-protected setting.
> 
> To compare this with the extreme levels of security enjoyed by the person of the Supreme Leader on Iranian soil is baseless. Underground facilities and air defence systems like those believed to be solid enough to protect the Iranian nuclear infrastructure from enemy strikes in case Iran decided to go for nuclear weapons, would be just as apt in protecting a key individual.
> 
> Furthermore, if the Supreme Leader ordered to build nuclear weapons and if this really entailed such a huge risk for his personal safety, then this risk would be known in advance, and would allow Iran to prepare accordingly - contrary to shahid Soleimani's case. And therefore, protective measures for the Supreme Leader would be enhanced to such a degree that it would make it impossible for the enemy's assassination teams to infiltrate the multiple, rock solid security layers set up for this specific occasion.
> 
> And let's not obfuscate the fact that these security measures would only need to last a couple of weeks - which is the time required for Iran to break out and assemble a nuclear device. After which, according to those who make the contentions under discussion, there'd be no more risk anymore for the Supreme Leader. Because, so they argue, nuclear weapons provide absolute deterrence against assassination of political and military figures. And yes, the Islamic Republic of Iran is perfectly capable of effectively shielding her Supreme Leader from any assassination attempts for a period of some weeks, even months or more if required.
> 
> Also, if the Democratic People's Republic of Korea was as much if not more of a threat to US hegemony, as claimed previously by the quoted user, and if the regime in Washington will proceed to assassinate leaders from rival states the moment they decide to go nuclear, why then was Kim Il-Sung spared?
> 
> No matter how one will look at it: the claim that Iran's Supreme Leader is being deterred from ordering to build nukes because of "fear for his life" does not hold water.
> 
> * The second argument presented in support of the claim, was that the US would strike and weaken the IRGC. And that this weakening was considered too high a price to pay in exchange for the acquisition of nuclear weapon. Weapons which, so the quoted user claims, provide absolute deterrence against any form of aggression. I hope everyone sees the self-contradicting nature of this reasoning: for if nukes make any act of aggression impossible, then what relevance does a temporary weakening of the IRGC have in such a context? Strictly none at all, given that only a few weeks after the hypothetical strikes, the IRGC would be armed with nukes. So this claim doesn't work either.
> 
> * This is all without mentioning that nuclear weapons do not deter against all sorts of armed attacks or military-grade operations, as proven by the *1982 Falklands war *between the UK and Argentina, by the *1999 Kargil conflict* between India and Pakistan, and by Islamic Iran's support for *Resistance forces* conducting armed attacks against the zionist military in Palestine and Lebanon, as well as against the US military in Iraq. So it is necessary to insist: *nuclear weapons do not deter against any and all forms of hostile armed action. *
> 
> 
> 
> Problem with this view is that the survival of the Islamic Republic and Iran's survival are inextricably linked and inseparable from each other, given the nature of the enemy's agenda.
> 
> Second problem is that if nuclear weapons strengthen a country's national defence, they strengthen the political system of that country *even more* against foreign military aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> The Leader of the nuclear-armed DPRK, Kim Jong-Un, also thought of giving concessions. He offered Trump to completely give up Korea's nuclear weapons, no less, in exchange for a lifting of US-imposed sanctions.
> 
> 
> 
> This relativization of the concept of deterrence is inoperative, insofar as military aggression serves a political objective, and nothing else. Does the aggressor achieve its political objective, then the defending side's deterrence has failed. Does the aggressor hold back from resorting to the means necessary for reaching its previously defined geostrategic goals - assuming that like the US, it does possess these means in theory, then it's the aggressor which was successfully deterred by the defender.
> 
> This is how the concept of deterrence plays out in practice.
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to ordering the strike on shahid Soleimani, someone like Trump likely wouldn't have been deterred by Iranian nuclear weapons. Trump also threatened nuclear-armed North Korea with a military attack (his "fire and fury" Tweet in particular), and it worked fine: he got the meeting he wanted with Kim.
> 
> But, beyond the psy-ops, here's what really matters: how exactly did the cowardly attack on Hajj Qassem fulfill Washington's geostrategic aims vis a vis Iran? It didn't, and hence this is ultimately not relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> But the Argentinians declared war on the UK, landed troops on territory London claims sovereignty over, and turned several British warships into blazing fireballs. They did all this to the UK despite Britain's large nuclear weapons arsenal, arsenal which did not deter Buenos Aires in the least.
> 
> Indian and Pakistani nukes did not prevent the armies of the two countries from clashing repeatedly, from killing each others' troops, from humiliatingly parading POW's in front of the cameras, in contravention of international laws and regulations.
> 
> It's interesting that Russia was cited though. Once upon a time, there was a much more powerful, much more intimidating version of present day Russia, known as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. However, where's the USSR today? Dwelling in the trash can of History. Defeated, territorially dismantled. Having the world's most massive stockpile of nukes (45.000 units) did not save the Soviet Union from being defeated by its rival. Leading us once again to conclude: nukes do not offer a fool-proof guarantee for survival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's path to a second strike capability
> 
> 
> The concept Interpretation of Irans new basing concept Non-nuclear states can have the highest conventional military capability but are alwa...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patarames.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Could you name one government that will knowingly endanger its own survival when carrying out an act of military retaliation? Thus, I'm not sure how the Islamic Republic has erred in this respect. But if the IR is foregoing nukes for the time being, that's not out of a fear of US aggression, as demonstrated above.
> 
> Also, how many states do you know whose leading figures put their lives at risk as much as IR leaders have done? How many terrorist attacks and attempts on their lives have they been subjected to since 1979? How many of them fought on the war fronts, compared to other countries? Heck, how many states are there in the world, whose leadership is brave enough to stand up to and seriously challenge American imperial hegemony? Four, five out of a hundred and ninety five? Let's not even mention Resistance against zionism, as that would reduce the number even more. So definitely, the IR leadership is on the daring side here.
> 
> But moreover, if the Islamic Republic is gone, Iran will be gone. Any hiatus in the authority of the central state will be mercilessly exploited by Iran's enemies to turn the country into a nightmare worse than Iraq, Syria, Libya and Afghanistan combined.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed 100% on this observation. The Taleban had practically stopped their attacks on US forces over the last three years of NATO occupation, and they were never seen intercepting American aircraft with surface to air missiles before. Then all of a sudden, shortly after shahid Soleimani's martyrdom, a US military or intelligence aircraft is downed over Afghanistan...
> 
> But here's the question, brother: *where was US nuclear deterrence *when Iran had that aircraft hit? Some say CIA mastermind Michael D'Andrea ("Ayatollah Mike") was on board - even if he wasn't, this was not an ordinary aircraft. Where was America's nuclear deterrence when Iran struck the CIA compound at Arbil airport, Kurdish Autonomous Region of Iraq? When Iran, in all probability, eliminated high-ranking US military officers in PGCC countries (like the one who supposedly lost his life while "lacing his boots", so their official statement)?





> But here's the question, brother: *where was US nuclear deterrence *when Iran had that aircraft hit? Some say CIA mastermind Michael D'Andrea ("Ayatollah Mike") was on board - even if he wasn't, this was not an ordinary aircraft. Where was America's nuclear deterrence when Iran struck the CIA compound at Arbil airport, Kurdish Autonomous Region of Iraq? When Iran, in all probability, eliminated high-ranking US military officers in PGCC countries (like the one who supposedly lost his life while "lacing his boots", so their official statement)?



I think a very sobering reality is staring us right in the face Salar-jan. The United States of America isn't the same military/economic juggernaut it once was and it is beginning to really show at a practical level, let alone strategic or tactical. No wonder China, The Russian Federation, DPRK and the I.R.I. smell nothing but blood in the water. --- My sincerest of apologies, I should have responded to you earlier as I wanted to say that in full-light of what you said in response to my own rather unfounded presumptions about Iran's supposed lack of gumption to reciprocate/retaliate. It's now more than crystal clear that the IRGC has gone above and beyond the call of duty (not perfect, but damn impressive given the circumstances).

*Here's what we know/can infer:*

- Americans lost Afghanistan in an astonishingly embarrassing fashion (14 U.S. soldiers got blown up on the way out). Complete disaster of a "transfer of power" to American trained and funded authorities (lmfao) and security. 

- USAF lost 1 of currently 4 E11-A BACN (highly specialized Data-warfare node aircraft) shortly after Shahid Hajj Qassem Soleimani's murder. This would be one of the most impressive aircraft ambushes in recent memory since each E11-A BACN is packed with expensive gear and Iran would be operating from undisclosed air-defense locations in Eastern Iran or within Afghanistan itself utilizing yet to be unveiled AA systems (or it could have been one we've seen before, Sevom Khordad, etc)

- U.S. Ain Al-Assad military base bombed (unknown casualties/material damage outside of one soldier who later committed suicide) Danish soldiers were, on record, *filmed* saying that "helicopters were cut in half, trucks smashed", etc... Sardar Hajizadeh still claims that the Americans are hiding the true extent of damage. A point he is ceaselessly adamant about. IRGC drone footage of the strike has yet to be released.

- Ain Al-Assad IRGC AEROSPACE strike operation broke the myth of American invincibility. *THE AMERICANS DIDN'T RETALIATE, ALTHOUGH THEY SWORE TO HIGH HEAVEN THAT THEY WOULD HAVE. *Greatly damaged America's image and credibility on the world-stage.

- Downing of RQ-4A advanced GLOBAL HAWK BAMS-D, circumventing its proprietary anti-AD systems and specialized construction material (honeycomb).

- Constant attacks on American logistics all over Iraq and Syria. Can't even begin to count how many trucks were destroyed carrying provisions and supplies for the Americans in
Iraq just in recent years alone. 

- Apprehension of U.S. soldiers in the Persian Gulf (so much for all that uber-macho military bravado)

- Supplying weapons/training to Iraqi insurgents later PMU and official state paramilitary organizations.

- Direct cause of untold amounts of dead U.S. soldiers during the occupation of Iraq.

- The continued attack of American business interests in Saudi Arabia/U.A.E by Iranian supplied weapons to the Houthis.

- A U.S. Naval general was found dead in Bahrain (Vice Adm Scott. Stearney, 5th fleet admiral). I don't know if Iran was involved in this directly but that would be one hell of an operation if it was the IRGC. Although, suicide is pretty common in the American military, but not as common amongst the upper-brass.

- Father of Zionist nuclear program "dead in fire" (I can't even find the news article anymore, lol funny how that turned out). Happened during the latest round of conflict between Palestinian resistance groups and the Zionist enclave. 

- Tit-for-tat escalation between Iran and the Zionist entity lead to a deadly final escalation on the high-seas. That being a retaliation attack by the IRGC which deliberately caused the deaths of 2-3 Israeli employed personnel on a Zionist cargo-vessel. Stopped attacks on Iranian vessels.

- IDF bungled their own anti-Iranian operations near their own coasts, causing wide-spread ecological damage to their own local marine life via oil-spill (so much for all that "Israeli excellence").

- Several other Israeli ships (worth billions) attacked in retaliatory operations.

- IRGC is now *further *entrenched in Syria with new reports of Iran supposedly operating out of Russian operated Khmeimim airbase. Unfettered transfer of weapons. IDF strikes amount to little or nothing.

- War of the tankers not too long ago. Multiple seized Tanker vessels by IRGC forces. Iran shows its willingness to respond in kind for illegal operations against juste economic interests.

- Continued transfer of much needed oil to Syria.

- Unabated support to Lebanon.

- Continued transfer of much needed oil to Venezuela. As well as expanding footprint in South America by helping Venezuela with their own domestic defense infrastructure.

- Unprecedented IRGC lead operation against the ARAMCO oil installations/facilities in Saudi Arabia. Shut down half their oil production overnight (literally). Skirting around and past literal BILLIONS of dollars worth of American defense equipment. 

- Yemeni operations against U.A.E (IRGC support to some extent).

- Provided critical offensive measures to the Palestinian resistance groups in a *fully* surrounded Gaza. Same groups rained down untold amounts of rockets onto the small Zionist enclave that was virtually paralyzed for several weeks, revealing their inherent weakness as an entity that lacks strategic-depth. Subsequent cover-up of the extent of damage done in a vain attempt to preserve Israel's invincibility facade. 

- Continued supply of advanced weaponry to the strongest/most effective non-state military organization in the world (Hezbollah). 

- Two IDF pilots killed in Helicopter crash (possible sabotage by Iranian paid saboteurs within occupied Palestine).

- Israeli official jailed due to accusation of being a spy for Iran.

- Another Iranian spy ring was uncovered in Israel just recently for giving state secrets to Iran (not even kidding, just found out recently).

- (old news but still relevant) Disrupting RQ-170 signals and bringing the advanced CIA drone down in a controlled descent manner. Technology later reverse engineered and used to greatly boost Iran's indigenous drone program.

- USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD-6) was scuttled due a fire that was supposedly caused by some Naval personnel not following protocol. But there was an explosion of some sort identified. Repairs would have been 3.2 billion and the price to outright replace it would be around 4 billion. Currently undergoing scrapping process (lol).

- USN Submarine had a "collision" in the South China Sea. Sub was taken back to port, yet to be determined if it is salvageable. Also super expensive....

- F-35s falling out the sky left and right.

- Certain batches of the F-35 are suffering from severe "rust" problems. Found out that the very quality of materials used in their construction is bad (again, really sad and telling).

Whilst not every one of these events are attributed to Iran, a lot of them are and it shows that Iran is giving back what it receives in kind. The list is endless really..... I think the picture becomes quite clear Salar-jan.

I hope this puts a poignant end to the discussion of Iranian "inaction".

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## aryobarzan

Blue In Green said:


> I think a very sobering reality is staring us right in the face Salar-jan. The United States of America isn't the same military/economic juggernaut it once was and it is begin to really show at a practical level, let alone strategic or tactical. No wonder China, The Russian Federation, DPRK and the I.R.I. smell nothing but blood in the water. --- My sincerest of apologies, I should have responded to you earlier as I wanted to say that in full-light of what you said in response to my own rather unfounded presumptions about Iran's supposed lack of gumption to reciprocate/retaliate. It's now more than crystal clear that the IRGC has gone above and beyond the call of duty (not perfect, but damn impressive given the circumstances).
> 
> *Here's what we know/can infer:*
> - Americans lost Afghanistan in an astonishingly embarrassing fashion (14 U.S. soldiers got blown up on the way out)
> 
> - USAF lost 1 of currently 4 E11-A BACN (highly specialized Data-warfare node aircraft) shortly after Shahid Hajj Qassem Soleimani's murder. This would be one of the most impressive aircraft ambushes in recent memory since each E11-A BACN is packed with expensive gear and Iran would be operating from undisclosed air-defense locations in Eastern Iran or within Afghanistan itself utilizing yet to be unveiled AA weaponry.
> 
> - U.S. Ain Al-Assad military base bombed (unknown casualties/material damage outside of one soldier who later committed suicide) Danish soldiers were, on record, *filmed* saying that "helicopters were cut in half, trucks smashed", etc... Sardar Hajizadeh still claims that the Americans are hiding the true extent of damage. A point he is ceaselessly adamant about.
> 
> - Ain Al-Assad IRGC AEROSPACE strike operation broke the myth of American invincibility. *THE AMERICANS DIDN'T RETALIATE, ALTHOUGH THEY SWORE TO HIGH HEAVEN THAT THEY WOULD HAVE. *Greatly damaged America's image and credibility on the world-stage.
> 
> - Downing of RQ-4A advanced GLOBAL HAWK BAMS-D, circumventing its specialized anti-AD systems and specialized construction material (honeycomb).
> 
> - Constant attacks on American logistics all over Iraq and Syria. Can't even begin to count how many trucks were destroyed carrying provisions and supplies for the Americans in
> Iraq.
> 
> - Apprehension of U.S. soldiers in the Persian Gulf (so much for all that uber-macho military bravado)
> 
> - Supplying weapons/training to Iraqi insurgents later PMU and official state paramilitary organizations.
> 
> - Direct cause of untold amounts of dead U.S. soldiers during the occupation of Iraq.
> 
> - The continued attack of American business interests in Saudi Arabia/U.A.E by Iranian supplied weapons to the Houthis.
> 
> - A U.S. Naval general was found dead in Bahrain (Vice Adm Scott. Stearney, 5th fleet admiral). I don't know if Iran was involved in this directly but that would be one hell of an operation if it was the IRGC. Although, suicide is pretty common in the American military, but not as common amongst the upper-brass.
> 
> - Father of Zionist nuclear program "dead in fire" (I can't even find the news article anymore, lol funny how that turned out).
> 
> - Tit-for-tat escalation between Iran and the Zionist entity lead to a deadly final escalation on the high-seas. That being a retaliation attack that caused the deaths of 2-3 Israeli employed personnel on a Zionist cargo-vessel. Stopped attacks on Iranian vessels on the high-seas.
> 
> - Several other Israeli ships (worth billions) attacked in retaliatory operations
> 
> - IRGC is now *further *entrenched in Syria with new reports of Iran supposedly operating out of Russian operated Khmeimim airbase. Unfettered transfer of weapons. IDF strikes amount to little or nothing.
> 
> - War of the tankers not too long ago. Multiple seized Tanker vessels. Iran shows its willingness to respond in kind for illegal operations against juste economic interests.
> 
> - Continued transfer of much needed oil to Syria.
> 
> - Continued transfer of much needed oil to Venezuela. As well as expanding footprint in South America by helping Venezuela with their own domestic defense infrastructure.
> 
> - Unprecedented IRGC lead operation against the ARAMCO oil installations in Saudi Arabia. Shut down half their oil production overnight (literally).
> 
> - Provided critical offensive measures to the Palestinian resistance groups in fully surrounded Gaza. Same groups rained down untold amounts of rockets onto a small enclave that was virtually paralyzed for several weeks. Subsequent cover-up of the extent of damage done.
> 
> - Continued supply of advanced weaponry to the strongest none-state military organize in the world (Hezbollah).
> 
> - Two IDF pilots killed in Helicopter crash (possible sabotage by Iranian paid saboteurs within occupied Palestine).
> 
> - Israeli official jailed due to accusation of being a spy for Iran.
> 
> - Another Iranian spy ring was uncovered in Israel just recently (not even kidding, just found out recently).
> 
> - (old news but still relevant) Disrupting RQ-170 signals and bringing the advanced CIA drone down in a controlled descent manner. Technology later reverse engineered and used to greatly boost Iran's indigenous drone program.
> 
> - USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD-6) was scuttled due a fire that was supposedly caused by some Naval personnel not following protocol. But there was an explosion of some sort identified. Repairs would have 3.2 billion and the price to outright replace it would be around 4 billion.
> 
> - USN Submarine had a "collision" in the South China Sea. Sub was taken back to port, yet to be determined if it is salvageable. Also super expensive....
> 
> - F-35s falling out the sky left and right.
> 
> Whilst not every one of these events are attributed to Iran, a lot of them are and it shows that Iran is giving back what it receives in kind. The list is endless really..... I think the picture becomes quite clear Salar-jan.
> 
> I hope this puts a poignant end to the discussion of Iranian "inaction".


Excellent summary..add to all that US debt just exceed $35 Trillion dollars..Most of it owed to China and Japan!..

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## Messerschmitt

Stryker1982 said:


> I feel like something big will come this year of 2022.
> 
> New solid fuel missile,
> SAT launches by IRGC sat program beginning to mature and prepare for a series of launches, now that a good SLV can be created.
> other




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490725910986870785👀

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## Websorber

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490949570293084164

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491319834889846784

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491322084672565252

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491326087657254913

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491327213584666624

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491328605364064259

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491328730001657856


https://twitter.com/mohshaltouki/status/1491334132177465350?t=LxDHZjQZBQVznrtVn1fvKQ&s=19

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## skyshadow



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## Arash1991

Here a video upload





And Here:






*Some facts from Videos:*

Missile Payload is several times stronger than TNT. That means 600 kg of Warhead equals to minimum 1200kg TNT (if factor is 2x) Explosion Power Formula can be found here and here wikipedia description (Translate it into English) (The estimation of the range s of a blast with the explosive force M, where a pressure difference P is still measured, and pressure difference gives us the destruction power in a certain radius. I experimented with this formula and its very interesting)
Missile can be fired imediately (Preperationtime decreased to 1/6 wich means can be fired more than 80% faster than previous models)
1450kg payload
High Meneuverability
New TEL`s used (double fire slots)

*That means *
Big firepower can be delivered in areliable way in a short time. Mobility increased due to weight effectivesness.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491367926901145604






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491347164630777860

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## Messerschmitt



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## aryobarzan

*The missile is "Fantastic"*....Just look at the deployment of large quantities...This is now a fully operational and deployed weapon.

Also the underground tunnels are amazing feast indeed. *Great job to IRGC.*.

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## Abid123

SalarHaqq said:


> If you pay attention, not a single one of my arguments was rooted in religious considerations, nor was I even referencing religion in any shape or form.
> 
> The notion that nuclear weapons deter enemies from even the slightest act of aggression is not accurate, as proven by concrete events of the past. British nuclear bombs did not deter Argentina from declaring war on the UK in 1982 and landing troops on territory London considers its own. Pakistani and Indian nuclear weapons did not prevent skirmishes and fighter jets being shot out of the skies. Nuclear powers are subject to attacks by guerilla forces backed by other states. Two or three threatening "Tweets" by Trump, and the Leader of nuclear-armed North Korea went to sit down with the clown and offered to give up his entire nuclear program in exchange for a lifting of sanctions - whereas non-nuclear Iran stood its ground and did not go to the negotiating table despite "maximum pressure" being exerted on it. And so on, and so forth.
> 
> So yes, if you look at the surface of things, if you restrict yourself to the symbolic level and to the realm of psy-ops, if you react in an emotive way to geostrategic developments, you might think Iran is weak(er than X, Y, Z)... But not if you grasp the entire depth of the situation, irregardless of any religious or ideological talking points.
> 
> Which is why arguments put forth by some anti-clerically inclined commenters are regularly fraught with issues of logic. Like suggesting Iran's Supreme Leader was "coerced" by the US and Isra"el" to impose a 2000 km limit on Iranian BM's, but leaving out that to any American president, Isra"el" matters just as much if not more than Washington D.C.. Or conveniently forgetting that the same Supreme Leader ordered an extension of Iran's missile range to 4000 km with the Khorramshahr BM, which was unveiled years ago. Not knowing what to do with the latest demonstrations of ICBM technology and being forced to resort to absurdities such as that "scientists" or the IRGC developed these against the will of the Supreme Leader, when in fact it's of course the Leader and nobody else who gave the military the go ahead for producing these items.
> 
> Or take an argument like the one that claims Iran is "afraid" to build nuclear weapons because if it set out to do so, the US would strike and weaken the IRGC... But since those who make such arguments also believe that nukes are the ultimate weapon of invincibility, any weakening of the IRGC in this scenario would thus be temporary and wouldn't last more than a few weeks until the first nuclear device is assembled, after which the IRGC would become untouchable for all eternity, by the logic of those who hold such views. In other terms, this "weakening", which could only be temporary, would be fully worth it and thus, fear of the IRGC getting weakened for a while could never deter Iran from going for nukes if really deemed necessary.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's the end result that counts. If like takfiris you believe there's a "secret under the table alliance between Rafidha and Jews" and that the intense conflict between Iran and the US is "bogus", or that Washington does not actually seek to violently overthrow the Islamic Republic and change the status quo in Iran, then well, you're in dire need of medical care. If however you know what's going on and how rabid, intense and vivid zio-American enmity is towards Iran, and how impatient they've been to carry out "regime change" in Tehran, then you need to look at the result first and foremost. What happens along the way, is secondary.
> 
> The most respected local user in terms of military-technical knowledge of Iranian forces is PeeD. And as far as I understand, PeeD believes in conventional counter-force. Meaning that Iran has not just successfully deterred her enemies from a conventional military aggression, but is in the process of ensuring deterrence even against hypothetical nuclear strikes, and is doing so purely through conventional, asymmetrical means. I am fully convinced by the validity of this analysis, and I'm confident that most Iranian users would concur.


Bro you said that North Korea developed nukes because of they had no other form of deterrent. Which is wrong. Anyways Clinton was not going to invade North Korea. It was just a consideration. He was not going to do it. North Korea would still stand today the same with or without nukes.

There is this Israeli member on PDF that claims that Israel will nuke Iran the moment Iran gets nukes.


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## aryobarzan

Abid123 said:


> Bro you said that North Korea developed nukes because of they had no other form of deterrent. Which is wrong. Anyways Clinton was not going to invade North Korea. It was just a consideration. He was not going to do it. North Korea would still stand today the same with or without nukes.
> 
> There is this Israeli member on PDF that claims that Israel will nuke Iran the moment Iran gets nukes.


About the Israeli member...their problem is that they don't know now or will ever know when Iran goes nuclear...May be yesterday or a year from now...in any case Iran will always have "second strike" capability..I think they call it " nuclear triad"...sea launch,air launch and ground launch..having nuclear without having triad does not make sense.

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## Abid123

aryobarzan said:


> About the Israeli member...their problem is that they don't know now or will ever know when Iran goes nuclear...May be yesterday or a year from now...in any case Iran will always have "second strike" capability..I think they call it " nuclear triad"...sea launch,air launch and ground launch..having nuclear without having triad does not make sense.


The member I am talking about is called "Beny Karachun" I think. He claimed that Israel would do anything from stoping in Iran from going nuclear. Even nuke all of Iran. I think that is more of a personal wish of his.

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## yavar



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## aryobarzan

Abid123 said:


> The member I am talking about is called "Beny Karachun" I think. He claimed that Israel would do anything from stoping in Iran from going nuclear. Even nuke all of Iran. I think that is more of a personal wish of his.


Very familiar with that account (person behind the account sometimes changes)..I once asked him (the person behind the account) exactly the same question and he said exactly what you said...Then I asked him what if Turkey or Egypt get the bomb..his answer..we will nuke them also..I thanked him for his views.

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## DoubleYouSee

What a pitty, i've been waiting for Iranian df-17.

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## Blue In Green

And there you have it, the quintessential answer to the Zionist ABM question. This is the "silver-bullet" we've been waiting for and it did not disappoint whatsoever!


HGV capable
Highly maneuverable
Heavy Payload
Quick deployment time
Already under mass-production
Long-range (Able to cover all of Israel)
Devastating ability Strike all of the Zionist entity with impunity due to HGV capability

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## skyshadow



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## SalarHaqq

Abid123 said:


> Bro you said that North Korea developed nukes because of they had no other form of deterrent. Which is wrong. Anyways Clinton was not going to invade North Korea. It was just a consideration. He was not going to do it. North Korea would still stand today the same with or without nukes.
> 
> There is this Israeli member on PDF that claims that Israel will nuke Iran the moment Iran gets nukes.



Brother, my goal was essentially to show that Iran has a greater amount of non-nuclear deterrence options available to it than North Korea, and heavier ones too (disruption of a large chunk of global energy supplies, and severely damaging the zionist entity which to US elites is more important than America itself).

If you're of the opinion that North Korea would have stood in the same position today without its nukes, then you'll be confirming my conclusion that conventional deterrence is possible against nuclear powers - provided your strategy and doctrine are aptly designed to fulfill the task.

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## _Nabil_

DoubleYouSee said:


> What a pitty, i've been waiting for Iranian df-17.


Patience is a great virtue ✌️

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## 925boy

SalarHaqq said:


> Brother, my goal was essentially to show that Iran has a greater amount of non-nuclear deterrence options in comparison to North Korea, and heavier ones too (disruption of a large chunk of global energy supplies, and severely damaging the zionist entity which to US elites is more important than America itself).
> 
> If you're of the opinion that North Korea would have stood in the same position today without its nukes, then you're confirming my conclusion that conventional deterrence is possible against nuclear powers - provided your strategy and doctrine are designed to fulfill the task.


I think your argument is correct, even Pakistan falls into that category- if the country has to clutch and rely on nuclear weapons to survive, then it was already vulnerable before it acquire nukes. SO yes, your theory seems correct. China has a large army and well funded one too, and they didnt increase their nuclear weapons volume too much, until recently too, and what explains it is that China's conventional capabilities are vast and strong enough to not need to be supported so critically by nukes.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

DoubleYouSee said:


> What a pitty, i've been waiting for Iranian df-17.



I think the path of this new Iranian missile is also difficult to predict. 










Blue In Green said:


> And there you have it, the quintessential answer the Zionist ABM question. This is the "silver-bullet" we've been waiting for and it did not disappoint whatsoever!
> 
> 
> HGV capable
> Highly maneuverable
> Heavy Payload
> Quick deployment time
> Already under mass-production
> Long-range (Able to cover all of Israel)
> Strike the Zionist with impunity due to HGV capability




Hoping and praying this missile or its equivalent will be deployed in Yemen. The Yemeni Resistance there needs these game-changing weapons.

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## Hassan Al-Somal

QWECXZ said:


> Dude, why do you waste your time with this nonsense? It is crystal clear that you are right.
> 
> I'm really surprised to read nonsense of this level on PDF from mature Iranian members. I feel like I am in a kindergarten. They killed Soleimani and took full responsibility for it and even called him a terrorist and a danger to the world. They treated him like Bin Laden. The US would've never done that to the Soviet Union, or even today's Russia or today's China. People who think that Iran has established deterrence against the US are not only delusional, but they are plain stupid and retarded. It's just as simple as that. No offense to any of our members here though.



People also forget the fact that any war between Israel and Iran or between Iran and US would not be conventional alone. Therefore, Iranian military generals and decision-makers are justified to choose the least disastrous options for them and the Iranian nation. And that options could be avoiding a direct conflict at all costs. Sometimes, you need to swallow your pride and choose to live in order to fight in another day. Heck, even China avoids engaging in a direct military conflict with the US - while Washington is continually arming Taiwan and has its battleships in the South China sea. Iranian leaders aren't emotional but actually rational thinkers in this instance.

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## Titanium100

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> People also forget the fact that any war between Israel and Iran or between Iran and US would not be conventional alone. Therefore, Iranian military generals and decision-makers are justified to choose the least disastrous options for them and the Iranian nation. And that options could be avoiding a direct conflict at all costs. Sometimes, you need to swallow your pride and choose to live in order to fight in another day. Heck, even China avoids engaging in a direct military conflict with the US - while Washington is continually arming Taiwan and has its battleships in the South China sea. Iranian leaders aren't emotional but actually rational thinkers in this instance.



Really disappointed in your political choice... You are now another atboy935 or whatever his called..

The Horn has such a rich history and absolute fortress.. they defeated the portuguese liberating the persian gulf during the Ajuraan sultanate era.. One of the wealthiest sultanates to ever exist and powerful navy which is how they destroyed the portuguese..

They also colonized Maldives an used to be their stragetic outpost in the indian ocean spice trade in order to control trade route..


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## Hassan Al-Somal

Titanium100 said:


> Really disappointed in your political choice... You are now another atboy935 or whatever his called..
> 
> Somali has such a rich and a absolute for the ummah.. they defeated the portuguese liberating the persian gulf during the Ajuraan sultanate era.. One of the wealthiest sultanates and power navy which is how they destroyed the portuguese..
> 
> They also colonized Maldives an used to be their stragetic outpost in the indian ocean spice trade



90 - 95% of Irani's population is Muslim. The day I learned sectarianism is retarded and destructive for all of us (Muslims) is the day I felt so much relief. 

Iran and Aghan Taliban have sorted out their differences. Now, look at the results of their cooperation: A complete victory over the Nations of Kufr. This is what the rest of the Muslim world needs to emulate. Cooperation brings victory; sectarianism brings shame and agony.

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## Pak Nationalist

925boy said:


> I think your argument is correct, even Pakistan falls into that category- if the country has to clutch and rely on nuclear weapons to survive, then it was already vulnerable before it acquire nukes. SO yes, your theory seems correct. China has a large army and well funded one too, and they didnt increase their nuclear weapons volume too much, until recently too, and what explains it is that China's conventional capabilities are vast and strong enough to not need to be supported so critically by nukes.


Pakistan acquired nukes only because India did so in 1974. Don't jerk off thinking that it had to d with Pakistan's weakness vis a vis your country.

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## Messerschmitt



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## sahureka2



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## jauk

غزوه خیبر - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد







fa.wikipedia.org

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## Hack-Hook

about this missile , Iran said they reduced the weight by 1/3rd , that can't be achieved by only changing the material in the body . I wonder if we used the new gel fuel they were talking previously about ?the one that they were said like solid fuel can be stored for long time and like liquid fuel engine can be turned on and off ?

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491784226626162697

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491783098018582532

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491783106658930691

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491783115282403336

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491783128066625537

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491783141882691585

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491796703371878403

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## Stryker1982

Very interesting.

Clearly this is not new to the arsenal and has been in production for some time and kept under wraps. Which means their are probably new projects undergoing at this moment.

If this can be produced in large quantities this could greatly shift the balance of power between Iran and Israel.

The main system would be Emad missiles, which are big and bulky. Production is not too expensive but due to size and weight and fueling time, in addition to the requirement of large number of 18 wheeler TELs, the deployable firepower is not easily scalable. Their were always limitations in using Emad missiles in large numbers. Of course it also takes time to setup and fire Emads from silos as well.

The Haj Qasem was probably not serially produced due to the expensive design based on HS Steel. I am not sure if it could've even been deployed on a typical dual-missile TEL due to the weight so only single missile TEL would be used.

In terms of depressed trajectory their was the Dezful but was still limited in range,

So finally they've reached KheybarShekan, which does have sufficient range, is scalable on dual-missile TELs which greatly increases deployable firepower, probably can be deployed in canisters buried under soft ground ready 24/7, and uses composites for cheaper and faster production. What is being shown here is cost-affordable, serial producible instant point strike weapon that covers all of Israel. Probably why they called it 'strategic'. Not to mention the benefit of good lift/drag ratio and conical glider design for anti-BM maneuverability.

Producing large numbers of these with TELs and instant launch canisters would easily shift the balance of power vis a vi direct conflict. Their needs to be a vigilant response to any potential covert action by them. This response requires the confidence of mass produced missiles that can reach Israel, as most of Iran's missile inventory is probably around the 200-1000km range (Fateh-110/313 Qiam, Zolfiqar, Dezful etc)



DoubleYouSee said:


> What a pitty, i've been waiting for Iranian df-17.


I expected something different but still got something great and very useful. It's possible the df-17 option was considered but is not something they will strive for. Possibly due to the costs and time consuming production process. For conventional power, even 100 DF-17s are not enough. Their needs to be something that can be produced in very large quantities at an affordable price to have a real battlefield effect, rather than having high technology but no depth of inventory. For example the Leopard series has evolved into a premium tank, but the actual in service numbers for the Germany military is actually quite embarrassing.

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> The main system would be Emad missiles, which are big and bulky. Production is not too expensive but due to size and weight and fueling time, in addition to the requirement of large number of 18 wheeler TELs, the deployable firepower is not easily scalable. Their were always limitations in using Emad missiles in large numbers. Of course it also takes time to setup and fire Emads from silos as well.


Emad is more suited for Iran Scud Storm missile launch than a Tel launched system preparation is done under the ground far from the eye of satellites ,when they see the prepration is when the missile begin launched .

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## Stryker1982

Hack-Hook said:


> Emad is more suited for Iran Scud Storm missile launch than a Tel launched system preparation is done under the ground far from the eye of satellites ,when they see the prepration is when the missile begin launched .


I understand but volume of fire will always be lesser than a solid fuel missile that is Kheybar-Shekan, just by nature of heavy liquid fuel missiles as you already know. And not every (older) bases are configured in this rail launch method. My intention is to say this is a super firepower leap.

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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> I understand but volume of fire will always be lesser than a solid fuel missile that is Kheybar-Shekan, just by nature of heavy liquid fuel missiles as you already know. And not every (older) bases are configured in this rail launch method. My intention is to say this is a super firepower leap.



I think that, in-light of all the expert analysis and OSINT information that we've been consuming over the years. It's more than safe to say that the IRGC AEROSPACE missile-forces have enough numbers in their BM fleet to quell any IDF attack and retaliate with extremely disproportionate firepower if need be (Conventional counter-force). On the off chance that Iran makes the decision to launch a pre-emptive strike, then the IDF will be rendered severely crippled due to the immense volume of diverse ordinances coming their way. Remember, Iran will be using more than just ballistic weaponry: long-range drones, LACMs, air-launched BMs and a host of other vectors of attack (not just Iranian soil). Will be used to strike Israeli assets both at land and at sea.

Kheybar-Shekan represents the visible confirmation of what we all suspected: Iran has been and continues to rapidly increase its missile technology R&D as well as mass-production/storage/deployment of missiles. Could be likely that Kheybar-Shekan is an older variant (first) of this newer line of HGV capable MRBMs. On-top of the composite material, longer range and higher explosive force. The production turn-around time could be lower, meaning more can be produced in a shorter amount of time (although I'm not too sure about the logistics).

Personally, I feel like if there were to be an issue for the IRGC AEROSPACE force, it would be the possible lack of adequate firing methods due to the immensity of the BM arsenal itself. As the Americans themselves have stated, Iran now has "overmatch" which I take it to mean that the Iranians not only have the advanced capabilities of 21st century BMs but also the massive numbers to make this form of combat effective within a war-time theater.

More double railed TELS need to be built, expansion of the underground missile-cities is already well underway and has been going on for god knows how many years (lol). The reveal of the Multiple-Launch BM system was a very positive sign, so maybe my worries are misplaced.

@PeeD Your thoughts?

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## Messerschmitt

Stryker1982 said:


> The Haj Qasem was probably not serially produced due to the expensive design based on HS Steel. I am not sure if it could've even been deployed on a typical dual-missile TEL due to the weight so only single missile TEL would be used.


I do believe the Haj Qasem missile is still being mass-produced, since as far as I understand, it is supposed to be Iran’s primary Israel-range missile for its underground missile canisters. When the missile was unveiled it got mentioned that a future version of Haj Qasem could have an extended range of 1800 km, for which most likely a HGV similar to the one demonstrated with Kheybar-Shekan would be necessary.

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## DoubleYouSee

Stryker1982 said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Clearly this is not new to the arsenal and has been in production for some time and kept under wraps. Which means their are probably new projects undergoing at this moment.
> 
> If this can be produced in large quantities this could greatly shift the balance of power between Iran and Israel.
> 
> The main system would be Emad missiles, which are big and bulky. Production is not too expensive but due to size and weight and fueling time, in addition to the requirement of large number of 18 wheeler TELs, the deployable firepower is not easily scalable. Their were always limitations in using Emad missiles in large numbers. Of course it also takes time to setup and fire Emads from silos as well.
> 
> The Haj Qasem was probably not serially produced due to the expensive design based on HS Steel. I am not sure if it could've even been deployed on a typical dual-missile TEL due to the weight so only single missile TEL would be used.
> 
> In terms of depressed trajectory their was the Dezful but was still limited in range,
> 
> So finally they've reached KheybarShekan, which does have sufficient range, is scalable on dual-missile TELs which greatly increases deployable firepower, probably can be deployed in canisters buried under soft ground ready 24/7, and uses composites for cheaper and faster production. What is being shown here is cost-affordable, serial producible instant point strike weapon that covers all of Israel. Probably why they called it 'strategic'. Not to mention the benefit of good lift/drag ratio and conical glider design for anti-BM maneuverability.
> 
> Producing large numbers of these with TELs and instant launch canisters would easily shift the balance of power vis a vi direct conflict. Their needs to be a vigilant response to any potential covert action by them. This response requires the confidence of mass produced missiles that can reach Israel, as most of Iran's missile inventory is probably around the 200-1000km range (Fateh-110/313 Qiam, Zolfiqar, Dezful etc)
> 
> 
> I expected something different but still got something great and very useful. It's possible the df-17 option was considered but is not something they will strive for. Possibly due to the costs and time consuming production process. For conventional power, even 100 DF-17s are not enough. Their needs to be something that can be produced in very large quantities at an affordable price to have a real battlefield effect, rather than having high technology but no depth of inventory. For example the Leopard series has evolved into a premium tank, but the actual in service numbers for the Germany military is actually quite embarrassing.


It seems that backbone of Iran's missile detterence is emad missie and these fateh series (dezfoul-haj qasem-kheybarshekan-..........)would be being use in case of attacking on radar sites and so and so.....

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## Mata Elang

As Sardar Hajizadeh already said, the Kheybar-Shekan is a 'secret' HGV missile that has been in mass production for a long time and is only now being made public. This means further strengthening the notion that the IRGC holds many secrets of super-sophisticated weapons that will only be seen when the time of war has come. I can imagine the IRGC already has weapons like ICBMs (yes, solid rocket engines have been published), multi-layered ABMs (Alam ol Hoda and ABM 3rd khordad versions), maybe HCM (Hypersonic Cruise Missile), and many more secret weapon surprises has not been disclosed (as sardar Vahidi says only 40% of Iranian arsenal is known to the enemy, and the rest is secret).

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## aryobarzan

Mata Elang said:


> As Sardar Hajizadeh already said, the Kheybar-Shekan is a 'secret' HGV missile that has been in mass production for a long time and is only now being made public. This means further strengthening the notion that the IRGC holds many secrets of super-sophisticated weapons that will only be seen when the time of war has come. I can imagine the IRGC already has weapons like ICBMs (yes, solid rocket engines have been published), multi-layered ABMs (Alam ol Hoda and ABM 3rd khordad versions), maybe HCM (Hypersonic Cruise Missile), and many more secret weapon surprises has not been disclosed (as sardar Vahidi says only 40% of Iranian arsenal is known to the enemy, and the rest is secret).


All of the above + grand daddy of all surprises...a "secret nuclear program" run by IRGC. My opinion of course..


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## QWECXZ

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> People also forget the fact that any war between Israel and Iran or between Iran and US would not be conventional alone. Therefore, Iranian military generals and decision-makers are justified to choose the least disastrous options for them and the Iranian nation. And that options could be avoiding a direct conflict at all costs. Sometimes, you need to swallow your pride and choose to live in order to fight in another day. Heck, even China avoids engaging in a direct military conflict with the US - while Washington is continually arming Taiwan and has its battleships in the South China sea. Iranian leaders aren't emotional but actually rational thinkers in this instance.


I believe you misunderstood me. I do not have a problem with the political decision to not respond directly to the US provocation. If anything, I appreciate it. It was a wise decision.
No sane person in the Iranian establishment should wish for a direct conflict with the world's most powerful military power.
But that wasn't my point. My point is that you should never be too confident and take the status quo for granted. It was Khamenei's overconfidence that provoked Trump to assassinate Gen. Soeleimani in Iraq. Trump, being the careless simpleton he is, called out Khamenei's bluff and taught him a historic lesson. Just a few days before Soleimani's assassination, Khamenei claimed that Iran could do anything he wanted in the region and the US could not do a damn thing about it.But oh man, was he wrong! It didn't take the US even 3 days to wait before they assassinated Iran's most important general and took full responsibility for it.

The problem is that I am completely enraged by the level of wishful thinking and naivety that some people are showing here, thinking that a few thousand ballistic missiles can guarantee our national security against the ever-growing threats of the US and her Western/Semitic allies. Right now the US is busy with Russia's growing ambitions and the emerging superpower status of China. That's why we've been left unbothered for a while. Nothing short of mega-tonne nukes would guarantee the national security of Iran at the face of our current situation in the region. Anyone who claims otherwise is either grossly misinformed or a traitor.

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## Daylamite Warrior

QWECXZ said:


> I believe you misunderstood me. I do not have a problem with the political decision to not respond directly to the US provocation. If anything, I appreciate it. It was a wise decision.
> No sane person in the Iranian establishment should wish for a direct conflict with the world's most powerful military power.
> But that wasn't my point. My point is that you should never be too confident and take the status quo for granted. It was Khamenei's overconfidence that provoked Trump to assassinate Gen. Soeleimani in Iraq. Trump, being the careless simpleton he is, called out Khamenei's bluff and taught him a historic lesson. Just a few days before Soleimani's assassination, Khamenei claimed that Iran could do anything he wanted in the region and the US could not do a damn thing about it.But oh man, was he wrong! It didn't take the US even 3 days to wait before they assassinated Iran's most important general and took full responsibility for it.


But didnt Iran become the first Islamic nation to unload Ballistic Missiles on US bases, causing the yanks to lie about casualties, retreat and talk Trump out of further provocations. Should I remind you that US didnt retaliate to the Ballistic Missile attack by Iran on US bases? Furthermore, Iran shot down a US drone and emboldened Shia groups in Iraq to persistently attack US bases in Iraq. Yes, Trump did take out Haj Qassem, around 10 years too late, but don't you think Khamenei proved that Iran can do what it pleases when it retaliated with force? We may be talking conspiracy theory here but I dont believe for a second there were no casualties from the US side, there were literally guards who were "knocked off their posts" when the attack happened. I doubt they survived, but Allah knows best. 

Regardless, Trump left office with humiliation whereas Khamenei is still in power and we have a hardline no-nonsense government in power driving a hard bargain at the nuclear talks. I think it was Trump and US with egg on their faces, and not the other way round as you're trying to portray.

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## Muhammed45

It could be interesting if we had something like this Indian developed missile among our missiles. 
Truly innovative 



According to Wikipedia it carries a torpedo inside its Bay and receives data from naval and areial platforms. It must be very interesting to watch its seperation moment and also diving of the torpedo. 

IRGC was developing a cruise missile launched from under water capsule. This one could be an awesome addition to IRGC's anti sub arsenal given the fact that IRGC has its Forward base ships capable of launching such a Long range platform. The Indian platform can cover upto 600 KM before reaching its target under water.

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## QWECXZ

Daylamite Warrior said:


> But didnt Iran become the first Islamic nation to unload Ballistic Missiles on US bases, causing the yanks to lie about casualties, retreat and talk Trump out of further provocations. Should I remind you that US didnt retaliate to the Ballistic Missile attack by Iran on US bases? Furthermore, Iran shot down a US drone and emboldened Shia groups in Iraq to persistently attack US bases in Iraq. Yes, Trump did take out Haj Qassem, around 10 years too late, but don't you think Khamenei proved that Iran can do what it pleases when it retaliated with force? We may be talking conspiracy theory here but I dont believe for a second there were no casualties from the US side, there were literally guards who were "knocked off their posts" when the attack happened. I doubt they survived, but Allah knows best.
> 
> Regardless, Trump left office with humiliation whereas Khamenei is still in power and we have a hardline no-nonsense government in power driving a hard bargain at the nuclear talks. I think it was Trump and US with egg on their faces, and not the other way round as you're trying to portray.


How many US personnel in Iraq have been killed due to these "persistent" attacks in Iraq by Shiite militias? Zero. We read about them almost every week or month. But they are just a few rockets that hit like nowhere. The BM attack on Ain Al-Assad was a farce in terms of revenging Soleimani's death. One should not get overconfident.

Trump was a president. His term ended. Khamenei is a Supreme Leader with infinite term. How can you compare these two?

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## Muhammed45

Muhammed45 said:


> It could be interesting if we had something like this Indian developed missile among our missiles.
> Truly innovative
> View attachment 814638
> 
> 
> According to Wikipedia it carries a torpedo inside its Bay and receives data from naval and areial platforms. It must be very interesting to watch its seperation moment and also diving of the torpedo.
> 
> IRGC was developing a cruise missile launched from under water capsule. This one could be an awesome addition to IRGC's anti sub arsenal given the fact that IRGC has its Forward base ships capable of launching such a Long range platform. The Indian platform can cover upto 600 KM before reaching its target under water.


Imagine Hoot chasing American submarines in the air


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## Mata Elang

QWECXZ said:


> I believe you misunderstood me. I do not have a problem with the political decision to not respond directly to the US provocation. If anything, I appreciate it. It was a wise decision.
> No sane person in the Iranian establishment should wish for a direct conflict with the world's most powerful military power.
> But that wasn't my point. My point is that you should never be too confident and take the status quo for granted. It was Khamenei's overconfidence that provoked Trump to assassinate Gen. Soeleimani in Iraq. Trump, being the careless simpleton he is, called out Khamenei's bluff and taught him a historic lesson. Just a few days before Soleimani's assassination, Khamenei claimed that Iran could do anything he wanted in the region and the US could not do a damn thing about it.But oh man, was he wrong! It didn't take the US even 3 days to wait before they assassinated Iran's most important general and took full responsibility for it.
> 
> The problem is that I am completely enraged by the level of wishful thinking and naivety that some people are showing here, thinking that a few thousand ballistic missiles can guarantee our national security against the ever-growing threats of the US and her Western/Semitic allies. Right now the US is busy with Russia's growing ambitions and the emerging superpower status of China. That's why we've been left unbothered for a while. Nothing short of mega-tonne nukes would guarantee the national security of Iran at the face of our current situation in the region. Anyone who claims otherwise is either grossly misinformed or a traitor.


First of all I agree with you Iran must have nuclear weapons to guarantee its security. The US 'CAN' be defeated easily (not that it can't, there are many ways. All you need to do is keep your mind one step ahead of the US). It's been 20 years since the US had simulated the 2002 Millennium Challenge ( MC02 ) and the US had not dared to go to war with Iran. The US military has been harassed by Iran too many times and the US has not dared to attack Iran. Soleimani's death was caused by US fear and not the other way around (US with a big mouth Trump has not dared to respond to Iran's ballistic missile attacks). War is not as easy as we say, there are many considerations to think about. Thousands of Iranian ballistic missiles are certainly one that makes the US not dare to attack Iran. In addition to BM, the US is also considering the position of Israel which has been surrounded by Iranian proxies in many directions and is also related to the strategic location of the Persian Gulf. But today what keeps the US from attacking Iran is because the US knows Iran can now strike the US mainland with cheap ICBM missiles (can't you see the signs? Big solid rocket engines, advanced centrifuges and deep underground passages that can holds as many things as you can imagine). And most importantly, the longer the US realizes that it doesn't know anything about Iran's true military might.

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## Mr Iran Eye

I have always mentioned here that Iran is always ahead of their announcement processors. I would say at least 4 years and more. I maintain that they will get us out a big suprise on the fighting planes ever unveiled. I maintain this affirmation

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## scimitar19

Muhammed45 said:


> It could be interesting if we had something like this Indian developed missile among our missiles.
> Truly innovative
> View attachment 814638
> 
> 
> According to Wikipedia it carries a torpedo inside its Bay and receives data from naval and areial platforms. It must be very interesting to watch its seperation moment and also diving of the torpedo.
> 
> IRGC was developing a cruise missile launched from under water capsule. This one could be an awesome addition to IRGC's anti sub arsenal given the fact that IRGC has its Forward base ships capable of launching such a Long range platform. The Indian platform can cover upto 600 KM before reaching its target under water.


Its a good concept but considering you will face an enemy with a potent naval ABM force such as AEGIS its rather questionable if this system can be effective. I lean more towards sea skimming stealth cruise missile variant of a torpedo carrier simply because it is way harder to detect.
1. Low heat signatures due to a lower speeds
2. Possible mid course flight path change or programmable flight path
3. Terrain masking capabilities and sea skimming cruising altitude
4. Radar Stealth, low observable design

Once missile is in close proximity to the ship before it reaches CIWS effective firing ranges ejects the torpedo maybe even undetected and let the fireworks commence.

Only downside to this missile is its speed where you need to keep constant eye on the fleet or ship movement for mid flight course correction.

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> The problem is that I am completely enraged by the level of wishful thinking and naivety that some people are showing here, thinking that a few thousand ballistic missiles can guarantee our national security against the ever-growing threats of the US and her Western/Semitic allies.



Yes, Iran's military power is deterring all her enemies from military aggression.

No matter the scenario, there is simply no way for the US regime to pursue its goals vis a vis Iran through war: the costs (both in political and economic terms) are prohibitive. Else it would have taken place already. Neither Iraq, nor Libya, nor Syria have been their main targets in the region, Iran was and is; and yet, they haven't dared to attack and are not going to dare for the foreseeable future.

The combination of:

- A few tens of thousands of BM's including extremely advanced ones armed with HGV's or characterized by pin-point accuracy, plus the supporting infrastructure namely 35+ ultra-hardened, self-sufficient and fully equipped missile 'cities' built beneath granite mountains, thousands of buried missile farm launchers and associated decoys, thousands of road mobile TEL's indistinguishable from regular civilian trucks and tens of thousands of associated decoys benefiting from an advantageous, large mountainous terrain of over 1.3 million square kilometers.
- CM's.
- A huge and varied UAV force.
- A very capable integrated air defence and radar network with a strong EW capability.
- Thousands of anti-ship missiles, of both the cruise and ballistic varieties, in addition to dozens of hard to detect midget submarines potentially armed with the Hoot / Shkval torpedo, as well as hundreds of fast attack craft.
- Up to ten million volunteers with very high morale and imbued with Islamic martyrdom culture through and through.
- An extensive network of capable regional allies in Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and beyond.
- The zionist entity, which to the US establishment and its underlying oligarchy is of paramount importance from reasons ranging from ideological to esoteric in nature, directly in Iran's cross hairs.
- The ability to disrupt the main jugular vein of global energy flows by mining it into oblivion, and to flatten every production and storage facility of the second and seventh largest oil exporters, as well as the second largest gas exporter in a matter of hours, potentially inducing global economic meltdown.

Means that Washington has no realistic, viable, cost-effective military option against Iran. And their experts and analysts are openly admitting as much.



QWECXZ said:


> Right now the US is busy with Russia's growing ambitions and the emerging superpower status of China. That's why we've been left unbothered for a while.



That's not the reason. For the US, the Iranian challenge precedes the present-day ones posed by China and Russia.

More over, that little while is going to last for another handful of decades at least, at the conclusion of which it is US power which might collapse. Because China is not going anywhere, nor is Russia. And the tendency for the past few years has been towards a reduction of the gap between China and the US, with China catching up at a rapid pace.



QWECXZ said:


> Nothing short of mega-tonne nukes would guarantee the national security of Iran at the face of our current situation in the region. Anyone who claims otherwise is either grossly misinformed or a traitor.



Time will prove catastrophist assertions to be incorrect, as it did in the past, because they're not based off valid factors.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> Yes, Iran's military power is deterring all her enemies from military aggression.
> 
> No matter the scenario, there is simply no way for the US regime to pursue its goals vis a vis Iran through war: the costs (both in political and economic terms) are prohibitive. Else it would have taken place already. Nor Iraq, not Libya, not Syria has been their main target in the region, Iran is; and yet, they haven't dared to attack and are not going to dare for the foreseeable future.
> 
> The combination of:
> 
> - A few tens of thousands of BM's including extremely advanced ones armed with HGV's or pin-point accurate, plus the supporting infrastructure namely 35+ ultra-hardened, self-sufficient and fully equipped missile "cities" built underneath granite mountains, thousands of buried missile farm launchers and associated decoys, thousands of road mobile TEL's indistinguishible from regular civilian trucks and tens of thousands of associated decoys benefiting from an advantagous, large mountainous terrain of over 1.3 million square kilometers.
> - CM's.
> - A huge and varied UAV force.
> - Thousands of anti-ship missiles, of both the cruise and ballistic types, in addition to dozens of hard to detect midget submarines potentially armed with the Hoot / Shkval torpedo, as well as hundreds of fast attack craft.
> - Up to ten million volunteers with very high morale and imbued through and through with Islamic martyrdom culture.
> - An extensive network of capable regional allies in Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and beyond.
> - The zionist entity, which to the US establishment and its underlying oligarchy is of paramount importance from reasons ranging from ideological to even esoteric in nature, in Iran's crosshairs.
> - The ability to disrupt the main jugular vein of global energy flows and to flatten every production and storage facility of the second and seventh largest oil exporters, as well as the second largest gas exporter.
> 
> Means that Washington has no realistic, viable, cost-effective military option against Iran.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the reason. For the US, the Iranian challenge precedes the contemporary Chinese and Russian ones.
> 
> More over, that little 'while' is going to last for another handful of decades at least, at the outset of which it is US power which might collapse. Because China is not going anywhere, not is Russia. And the tendency for the past few years has been towards a reduction of the gap between China and the US, with China catching up at a rapid pace.
> 
> 
> 
> Time will prove catastrophist assertions wrong, as it did in the past, because they aren't based off valid factors.


Yeah, yeah. None of that nonsense you wrote means anything, make it as long as you wish, but it's all nonsense and I didn't even bother to read your propaganda.

Trump does have a high chance of coming back to power in 2024. And he can always take out Gen. Ghaani like he did to Gen. Soleimani. I still remember how scared the IR was of him. Now that he's gone and the US is busy with bigger issues and sleepy Joe is the POTUS, suddenly the IR has become "deterrent". lol I remember how the regime's authorities were scared shitless of him during his last days as the POTUS, trying not to provoke him again.

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> Yeah, yeah. None of that nonsense you wrote means anything, make it as long as you wish, but it's all nonsense and I didn't even bother to read your propaganda.



Interestingly enough, it's the catastrophist discourse of oppositionists which 43 years of history have consistently proven to be flat out wrong.



QWECXZ said:


> Trump does have a high chance of coming back to power in 2024. And he can always take out Gen. Ghaani like he did to Gen. Soleimani.



And much like the martyrdom of sardar Soleimani, it's not going to affect the general geostrategic situation in the least.



QWECXZ said:


> I still remember how scared the IR was of him. Now that he's gone and the US is busy with bigger issues and sleepy Joe is the POTUS, suddenly the IR has become "deterrent". lol I remember how the regime's authorities were scared shitless of him during his last days as the POTUS, trying not to provoke him again.



No, the Islamic Republic exercised deterrence under Trump as well. Trump would not have thought of trying to achieve strategic US objectives through what it would have taken to achieve them by military means. What those goals are? Pompeo's 12 demands given to Iran, followed by the balkanization of the country. A miserable failure, just as Trump's lame "maximum pressure campaign".

Upwards of 4000 nuclear weapons and they cannot even prevent Iran from directing her allies to eliminate 600+ US occupation troops in Iraq; from inspiring young Lebanese fighters to blow up an entire Marines barracks. From challenging US and zionist interests across the entire region non-stop for more than four decades. What a joke.

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## QWECXZ

Mata Elang said:


> First of all I agree with you Iran must have nuclear weapons to guarantee its security. The US 'CAN' be defeated easily (not that it can't, there are many ways. All you need to do is keep your mind one step ahead of the US). It's been 20 years since the US had simulated the 2002 Millennium Challenge ( MC02 ) and the US had not dared to go to war with Iran. The US military has been harassed by Iran too many times and the US has not dared to attack Iran. Soleimani's death was caused by US fear and not the other way around (US with a big mouth Trump has not dared to respond to Iran's ballistic missile attacks). War is not as easy as we say, there are many considerations to think about. Thousands of Iranian ballistic missiles are certainly one that makes the US not dare to attack Iran. In addition to BM, the US is also considering the position of Israel which has been surrounded by Iranian proxies in many directions and is also related to the strategic location of the Persian Gulf. But today what keeps the US from attacking Iran is because the US knows Iran can now strike the US mainland with cheap ICBM missiles (can't you see the signs? Big solid rocket engines, advanced centrifuges and deep underground passages that can holds as many things as you can imagine). And most importantly, the longer the US realizes that it doesn't know anything about Iran's true military might.


Define "defeated".

Do you think Iran can hurt the US mainland? How many ICBMs do you think Iran has? Well, as far as we know, zero. But even if we're wrong, let's assume that Iran has 100 ICBMs that can reach anywhere in the US. That's a big assumption, but let it be.

How many of these ICBMs do you think will reach the US territory? 40? 50? At such a long distance, none of these missiles can achieve anything of strategic or tactical importance except for terrorizing ordinary Americans. And how do you think the US would respond to it? Do you think 330 million Americans will accept to be terrorized by a far weaker nation?!

I mean at the most optimistic scenario, the US can attack Iran's infrastructure like power plants, dams, airports, etc. Nothing would remain functioning in Iran in such a scenario. The whole country will collapse after a few weeks without electricity, water, food, etc. At the worst case scenario, the US will just nuke the shit out of Tehran. The whole idea of attacking a nuclear power with ICBMs is a ridiculous joke.

Iran can NOT attack the United States, ever. Not today, not in 10 years, not even 20 years later. At the pace of Iran's advances, Iran will not be able to attack the US territory even 50 years later. As soon as Iran launches an ICBM towards the United States, the US has a justified reason to nuke Tehran. You cannot tell if an ICBM is conventional or carrying a nuclear warhead. So, they will just nuke Tehran and say they thought it was a nuclear ICBM.

So, the whole idea of touching the US territory is out of question. Can Iran painfully hurt US interests in the Middle East? Surely we can. We can take out their military bases, rain missiles on strategic assets of their allies, block vital energy routes (even though China is not going to like this one), and we can kill tens of thousands of their soldiers at the most optimistic scenario. The US does not want to pay this cost because well, who in their sane mind would accept this? But what if an insane person in the US takes power and finally reaches the conclusion that it is an acceptable price if they send Iran back to the stone age and solve the whole Iran issue for the next decades? And believe it or not, they can send Iran back to the stone age very easily. They have more than enough fire power for that in the Middle East alone.

So, come out of this delusional, ridiculous, childish, immature idea that Iran is in any way capable of defending itself against a nuclear super power like the United States without even obtaining nukes. All Iran can ever hope to do is to stop a US invasion and destroy US assets in the Middle East. That's all that Iran can do for the next many decades. The issue of attacking the US main land is completely out of question for Iran in the foreseeable future, and by foreseeable future I meany several decades later.



SalarHaqq said:


> Interestingly enough, catastrophists are the ones whose assessments have been proven wrong by 43 years of history.
> 
> 
> 
> And much like the martyrdom of sardar Soleimani, it's not going to affect the geostrategic balance in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> Trump was scared to try and achieve strategic US objectives through what it would take to reach them by military means. What those goals are? Pompeo's 12 demands given to Iran, followed by the balkanization of the country. A miserable failure, just as Trump's lame "maximum pressure campaign". What a joke.


Trump's lame "maximum pressure campaign" is the reason that Iran is negotiating with the US at this very moment. Have you forgotten Khamenei's bluff that Iran will never negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani?

Guess what? We are negotiating with them, albeit indirectly.

And if you had a peanut in your head, you would've realized that just because something has not happened for 43 years, it doesn't rule out that it cannot happen in future. You guys barked all the time about how the US couldn't do a damn thing until finally Trump played tough and ordered to kill Soleimani just because he could. All it took him was a command to shoot Soleimani to one of his soldiers that had a clear sight of Soleimani's vehicle. And then Khamenei had to cry in front of cameras on national TV, claiming that they will take "revenge", but at an unknown time and an unknown place and in an unknown way. LOL

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> So, come out of this delusional, ridiculous, childish, immature idea that Iran is in any way capable of defending itself against a nuclear super power like the United States without even obtaining nukes. All Iran can ever hope to do is to stop a US invasion and destroy US assets in the Middle East.



How is the US going to achieve its objectives vis a vis Iran without an invasion?



QWECXZ said:


> Trump's lame "maximum pressure campaign" is the reason that Iran is negotiating with the US at this very moment.



User Mohsen replied perfectly to this kind of assertion. It'll be quicker to quote him directly:

_What Iran is looking for isn't just selling the oil (which even this didn't exist in the JCPOA), Iran is demanding the end of all sanctions, plus the verification and an all aspect guarantee (legal/political and economical), even JCPOA didn't grant us such a thing let alone it's dead corpse, but on the other side we only accept the limitations of the JCPOA which are on the sunset and we have already crossed and are irreversible like the R&D. we are also looking for the compensation, so overall this time it will be a one sided deal in our favor. it's either this or nothing.

I still see no chance for such a deal, but there is no reason to not negotiate for it either. effect of sanctions wasn't beyond 20 or 30 percent, liberal instructions and theories were the real cause of damage, in fact *in the very first year of JCPOA implementation, our currency started to collapse*, that's the actual evidence which people like you try to ignore._

Besides, how do these negotiations bring about the realization of US strategic goals towards Iran? Because they don't.



QWECXZ said:


> Have you forgotten Khamenei's bluff that Iran will never negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani?
> 
> Guess what? We are negotiating with them, albeit indirectly.



The previous US administration was meant, and Iran never negotiated with them in any shape or form.



QWECXZ said:


> And if you had a peanut in your head, you would've realized that just because something has not happened for 43 years, it doesn't rule out that it cannot happen in future.



Certainly, but considering that Iran has gotten more and more powerful over the past 43 years, and that the US empire is on a downward spiral, it only makes it less and less probable. It also shows that to consider the opposite view as a certainty, namely that Iran is defenseless against the US and will therefore succumb soon to the latter's pressures or threats, is far fetched to say the least.



QWECXZ said:


> You guys barked all the time about how the US couldn't do a damn thing until finally Trump played tough and ordered to kill Soleimani just because he could.



I still do. Trump couldn't do a damn thing. Shahid Soleimani's martyrdom didn't change a thing. It altered literally nothing in the big picture: Iran's nuclear program expanded greatly, so did Iran's missiles, while Iran's regional presence is as solid as before and Iran's policy of anti-imperial Resistance as adamant as ever.



QWECXZ said:


> All it took him was a command to shoot Soleimani to one of his soldiers that had a clear sight of Soleimani's vehicle. And then Khamenei had to cry in front of cameras on national TV, claiming that they will take "revenge", but at an unknown time and an unknown place and in an unknown way. LOL



And then nothing changed in the geostrategic balance between Iran and the zio-American empire.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> How is they US going to achieve its objectives vis a vis Iran without an invasion?
> 
> 
> 
> User Mohsen replied perfectly to this kind of assertion. It'll be quicker to quote him directly:
> 
> _What Iran is looking for isn't just selling the oil (which even this didn't exist in the JCPOA), Iran is demanding the end of all sanctions, plus the verification and an all aspect guarantee (legal/political and economical), even JCPOA didn't grant us such a thing let alone it's dead corpse, but on the other side we only accept the limitations of the JCPOA which are on the sunset and we have already crossed and are irreversible like the R&D. we are also looking for the compensation, so overall this time it will be a one sided deal in our favor. it's either this or nothing.
> 
> I still see no chance for such a deal, but there is no reason to not negotiate for it either. effect of sanctions wasn't beyond 20 or 30 percent, liberal instructions and theories were the real cause of damage, in fact *in the very first year of JCPOA implementation, our currency started to collapse*, that's the actual evidence which people like you try to ignore._
> 
> Besides, how do these negotiations bring about the realization of US strategic goals towards Iran? Because they don't.
> 
> 
> 
> The previous US administration was meant, and Iran never negotiated with them in any shape or form.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly, but considering that Iran has gotten more and more powerful over the past 43 years, and that the US empire is on a downward spiral, it only makes it less and less probable. It also shows that to consider the opposite view as a certainty, namely that Iran is defenseless against the US and will therefore succumb soon to the latter's pressures or threats, is far fetched to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> I still do. Trump couldn't do a damn thing. Shahid Soleimani's martyrdom didn't change a thing. Literally, nothing in the big picture: Iran's nuclear program expanded greatly, so did Iran's missiles, while Iran's regional presence is as solid as before.
> 
> 
> 
> And apart from that, nothing changed in the geostrategic balance between Iran and the zio-American empire.


I already explained how the US can achieve it. Read it again. They can take out power plants, airports, dams, hospitals, basically all vital and critical infrastructures of Iran. It can cause civil unrest and then they can arm people inside Iran and Iran will be finished off for decades like today's Syria with a long civil war. The only thing that stops the US from doing this is that the US leadership does not think the price they have to pay is worth it. And again, the status quo is in fact in the US favor. Why would the US want tens of thousands of dead soldiers and billions of dollars of collateral damage when it is in fact containing Iran without firing a single bullet and is even benefiting from it economically by seizing over 100 billion dollars of Iranian assets worldwide? It makes no sense to change the status quo and go for a deadly, costly war with a country of 85 million people when all is good for them and Iran is the one that is under pressure. Maintaining a bad status quo while negotiating for sanctions relief is not called deterrence. I know you guys don't get the difference, but this is far from deterrence.

And the rest of your post is nonsense and propaganda. Khamenei said that he would *never* negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani and now they are. What for? It doesn't matter. He said Iran would never negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani. Never means never. And now they are sitting there in Vienna, negotiating with the very same people that planned to kill Iran's 2nd most powerful man and executed it. Even the Europeans didn't talk against the US assassination of Gen. Soleimani and urged Iran to calm down!!! We all know Europeans well. Don't we?

Iran's nuclear program hasn't expanded greatly. It hasn't expanded at all. Iran's enrichment capacity continues to remain below 19,000 SWU. Just because we are stockpiling uranium doesn't mean that our enrichment program has expanded in any meaningful way. And even that is in UF6 Kg/year, not U Kg/year. Iran's enrichment capacity is in fact somewhere around 10,000 SWU UF6 Kg/year, which is to be honest with you, embarrassing! Khamenei boasted about reaching 190,000 SWU in a year and a year has passed and we are not even at 10% of what he had bragged about. The people who think Iran's nuclear program has expanded significantly are clearly misinformed. If anything, Iran is pretty much right where it was before the JCPOA in 2013. I wouldn't call returning to your 2013 conditions after losing hundreds of billions of dollars as "expanding greatly".

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## Daylamite Warrior

QWECXZ said:


> How many US personnel in Iraq have been killed due to these "persistent" attacks in Iraq by Shiite militias? Zero. We read about them almost every week or month. But they are just a few rockets that hit like nowhere. The BM attack on Ain Al-Assad was a farce in terms of revenging Soleimani's death. One should not get overconfident.
> 
> Trump was a president. His term ended. Khamenei is a Supreme Leader with infinite term. How can you compare these two?



Well Im comparing the two most absolute powers in the two states. It's not mine or Iran's fault that the US has chosen to have a corrupt dictatorship mascarading as a democracy. Khamenei is the true leader of Iran, and if the true leader of US was Trump it is clear which one of the two came looking like roses. Had Trump had a second term and Iran accepting a bad deal I would have conceaded, but the man got called a domestic terrorist, voted out after one term, refuted by Pompeo and his military brass and left kicking and screaming.

How was it farcicle? It was the first attack of its kind, ever, and the US didnt respond which is rare. What was farcicle was watching a flustered Trump do a press conference and say nobody died, then as the days went on the number increased and these people disappeared from the records and went to UAE and Germany, never to be seen again.

According to US estimates Iranian forces have been responsible for so many US deaths and don't think for a second that Iran has thrown its entire weight in Iraq. Out of consideration of the war wearying Iraqi people and amicable Iraqi government Iran has not given these groups real weapons....yet. So far it's just little loitering drones and katyushas. However that can change. Stop selling your country so cheaply for some peanuts.



QWECXZ said:


> Yeah, yeah. None of that nonsense you wrote means anything, make it as long as you wish, but it's all nonsense and I didn't even bother to read your propaganda.
> 
> Trump does have a high chance of coming back to power in 2024. And he can always take out Gen. Ghaani like he did to Gen. Soleimani. I still remember how scared the IR was of him. Now that he's gone and the US is busy with bigger issues and sleepy Joe is the POTUS, suddenly the IR has become "deterrent". lol I remember how the regime's authorities were scared shitless of him during his last days as the POTUS, trying not to provoke him again.



Yeah Iran was sooo scared of Trump that they fired a bunch of missiles at his troops and drones, increased enrichment and missile unveilings, started a shadow tanker war with Israel which Israel admitted defeat, began shipping oil to Venezuela without any US piracy merely by hoisting Iranian flags on tankers and not negotiating with US at any point. Bear in mind all this happened with a very weak Rohani government.

Stop brown nosing the enemies of Iran. Iran honesly doesnt need people like you. Your kind need to be rounded up va ba ye dar e kooni az keshvar bendazan biroon.

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> I already explained how the US can achieve it. Read it again. They can take out power plants, airports, dams, hospitals, basically all vital and critical infrastructures of Iran. It can cause civil unrest and then they can arm people inside Iran and Iran will be finished off for decades like today's Syria with a long civil war. The only thing that stops the US from doing this is that the US leadership does not think the price they have to pay is worth it. And again, the status quo is in fact in the US favor. Why would the US want tens of thousands of dead soldiers and billions of dollars of collateral damage when it is in fact containing Iran without firing a single bullet and is even benefiting from it economically by seizing over 100 billion dollars of Iranian assets worldwide? It makes no sense to change the status quo and go for a deadly, costly war with a country of 85 million people when all is good for them and Iran is the one that is under pressure. Maintaining a bad status quo while negotiating for sanctions relief is not called deterrence. I know you guys don't get the difference, but this is far from deterrence.
> 
> And the rest of your post is nonsense and propaganda. Khamenei said that he would *never* negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani and now they are. What for? It doesn't matter. He said Iran would never negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani. Never means never. And now they are sitting there in Vienna, negotiating with the very same people that planned to kill Iran's 2nd most powerful man and executed it. Even the Europeans didn't talk against the US assassination of Gen. Soleimani and urged Iran to calm down!!! We all know Europeans well. Don't we?
> 
> Iran's nuclear program hasn't expanded greatly. It hasn't expanded at all. Iran's enrichment capacity continues to remain below 19,000 SWU. Just because we are stockpiling uranium doesn't mean that our enrichment program has expanded in any meaningful way. And even that is in UF6 Kg/year, not U Kg/year. Iran's enrichment capacity is in fact somewhere around 10,000 SWU UF6 Kg/year, which is to be honest with you, embarrassing! Khamenei boasted about reaching 190,000 SWU in a year and a year has passed and we are not even at 10% of what he had bragged about. The people who think Iran's nuclear program has expanded significantly are clearly misinformed. If anything, Iran is pretty much right where it was before the JCPOA in 2013. I wouldn't call returning to your 2013 conditions after losing hundreds of billions of dollars as "expanding greatly".



Aziz, kheli az harfhot rust-hast valli ma Irooni-ha bayat yazare az khodemoon rosi basheem.

There is only so much Iran can do realistically. I understand your grievances but for me, I take what I can get.

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> I already explained how the US can achieve it. Read it again. They can take out power plants, airports, dams, hospitals, basically all vital and critical infrastructures of Iran. It can cause civil unrest and then they can arm people inside Iran and Iran will be finished off for decades like today's Syria with a long civil war. The only thing that stops the US from doing this is that the US leadership does not think the price they have to pay is worth it.



The price happens to be an integral part of the equation. It makes no sense to say "they can do it but they consider the price to be prohibitive, so Iran will lose / has lost". Actually, this is in line with what I wrote above: that the US has no cost-effective military option. If it's too costly, then they will not attack. And it's too costly precisely because Iran's military prowess will extract that heavy price from them. This is called deterrence.



QWECXZ said:


> And again, the status quo is in fact in the US favor. Why would the US want tens of thousands of dead soldiers and billions of dollars of collateral damage when it is in fact containing Iran without firing a single bullet and is even benefiting from it economically by seizing over 100 billion dollars of Iranian assets worldwide?



It's not containment when Iran's reach has kept expanding for the past four decades. Also, the US's strategic goal is not to simply contain Iran: it is to finish Iran off.



QWECXZ said:


> It makes no sense to change the status quo and go for a deadly, costly war with a country of 85 million people when all is good for them and Iran is the one that is under pressure. Maintaining a bad status quo while negotiating for sanctions relief is not called deterrence. I know you guys don't get the difference, but this is far from deterrence.



All is far from being good for the US. The imperial oligarchy does not consider this status quo with Iran as satisfactory. It has no tolerance for independent states, let alone one that is seriously challenging their interests. Hence why they're going out of their way to exploit every realistic means at their disposal to achieve "regime change" in Iran. But are failing at it.



QWECXZ said:


> And the rest of your post is nonsense and propaganda. Khamenei said that he would *never* negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani and now they are.



I addressed this above: by killers, the previous administration was meant, those who were directly involved in it. No negotiation took place with the Trump regime, and its attempts to force Iran back to the table were definitely unsuccessful.



QWECXZ said:


> Iran's nuclear program hasn't expanded greatly. It hasn't expanded at all. Iran's enrichment capacity continues to remain below 19,000 SWU. Just because we are stockpiling uranium doesn't mean that our enrichment program has expanded in any meaningful way. And even that is in UF6 Kg/year, not U Kg/year. Iran's enrichment capacity is in fact somewhere around 10,000 SWU UF6 Kg/year, which is to be honest with you, embarrassing! Khamenei boasted about reaching 190,000 SWU in a year and a year has passed and we are not even at 10% of what he had bragged about. The people who think Iran's nuclear program has expanded significantly are clearly misinformed. If anything, Iran is pretty much right where it was before the JCPOA in 2013. I wouldn't call returning to your 2013 conditions after losing hundreds of billions of dollars as "expanding greatly".



JCPOA limitations were reversed to a significant extent, and surely that's not what the US was aiming for. So to me that equals another failure of the so-called "maximum pressure" policy of Trump.

Either way, the assassination of martyr Soleimani did really nothing to limit Iran's nuclear program, did it? Iran returning to the negotiation table has nothing to do with the assassination. QED.

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## SalarHaqq

Let's hear it from the horse's mouth: US think tank scholars like Barbara Slavin, senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and director of the so-called "Future of Iran Initiative", also believe that the killing of shahid Soleimani did nothing to advance US goals towards Iran and if anything, backfired on Washington:

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## HAIDER

What will be Iran's strategy if Republicans are back in power which is going to happen soon. This Democrats agreement will be reversed again ............

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## Daylamite Warrior

HAIDER said:


> What will be Iran's strategy if Republicans are back in power which is going to happen soon. This Democrats agreement will be reversed again ............


Well, Iran would naturally snap back enrichment back to 60% and beyond, which would be fair in the event of yet another reneging by US...however the reason the deal hasn't been reached yet is because the US doesn't understand that it takes two to tango, and if any future US administration can freely leave a deal due to political games with their domestic opposition then Iran will have to be able to snap back enrichment in response, as a clause in any future agreement.

The deal has a long way to go and probably wont be reached if this impasse can not be ceded by the Americans.

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## Mata Elang

QWECXZ said:


> Define "defeated".
> 
> Do you think Iran can hurt the US mainland? How many ICBMs do you think Iran has? Well, as far as we know, zero. But even if we're wrong, let's assume that Iran has 100 ICBMs that can reach anywhere in the US. That's a big assumption, but let it be.
> 
> How many of these ICBMs do you think will reach the US territory? 40? 50? At such a long distance, none of these missiles can achieve anything of strategic or tactical importance except for terrorizing ordinary Americans. And how do you think the US would respond to it? Do you think 330 million Americans will accept to be terrorized by a far weaker nation?!
> 
> I mean at the most optimistic scenario, the US can attack Iran's infrastructure like power plants, dams, airports, etc. Nothing would remain functioning in Iran in such a scenario. The whole country will collapse after a few weeks without electricity, water, food, etc. At the worst case scenario, the US will just nuke the shit out of Tehran. The whole idea of attacking a nuclear power with ICBMs is a ridiculous joke.
> 
> Iran can NOT attack the United States, ever. Not today, not in 10 years, not even 20 years later. At the pace of Iran's advances, Iran will not be able to attack the US territory even 50 years later. As soon as Iran launches an ICBM towards the United States, the US has a justified reason to nuke Tehran. You cannot tell if an ICBM is conventional or carrying a nuclear warhead. So, they will just nuke Tehran and say they thought it was a nuclear ICBM.
> 
> So, the whole idea of touching the US territory is out of question. Can Iran painfully hurt US interests in the Middle East? Surely we can. We can take out their military bases, rain missiles on strategic assets of their allies, block vital energy routes (even though China is not going to like this one), and we can kill tens of thousands of their soldiers at the most optimistic scenario. The US does not want to pay this cost because well, who in their sane mind would accept this? But what if an insane person in the US takes power and finally reaches the conclusion that it is an acceptable price if they send Iran back to the stone age and solve the whole Iran issue for the next decades? And believe it or not, they can send Iran back to the stone age very easily. They have more than enough fire power for that in the Middle East alone.
> 
> So, come out of this delusional, ridiculous, childish, immature idea that Iran is in any way capable of defending itself against a nuclear super power like the United States without even obtaining nukes. All Iran can ever hope to do is to stop a US invasion and destroy US assets in the Middle East. That's all that Iran can do for the next many decades. The issue of attacking the US main land is completely out of question for Iran in the foreseeable future, and by foreseeable future I meany several decades later.
> 
> 
> Trump's lame "maximum pressure campaign" is the reason that Iran is negotiating with the US at this very moment. Have you forgotten Khamenei's bluff that Iran will never negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani?
> 
> Guess what? We are negotiating with them, albeit indirectly.
> 
> And if you had a peanut in your head, you would've realized that just because something has not happened for 43 years, it doesn't rule out that it cannot happen in future. You guys barked all the time about how the US couldn't do a damn thing until finally Trump played tough and ordered to kill Soleimani just because he could. All it took him was a command to shoot Soleimani to one of his soldiers that had a clear sight of Soleimani's vehicle. And then Khamenei had to cry in front of cameras on national TV, claiming that they will take "revenge", but at an unknown time and an unknown place and in an unknown way. LOL


You know, now what you're saying seems to be in a roundabout way and wishy-washy. Let me explain in a simple way. 'NO NUCLEAR WAR' as long as no one starts it first. How many ICBMs does the US have 400, 600 or 1000? Iran just needs to equalize the number or even more. Impossible? You are wrong! Iran, unlike the US, produces its missiles at a price 1000 times cheaper. Iran already has thousands of BM (then why can't Iran make thousands of ICBMs?). What's the problem with technology? Are you blind not to see the development of Iranian technology in solid and liquid ICBM rocket engines? Or the problem with nuclear enrichment technology? did you miss it again, Iran has made the advanced IR-9 centrifugal machine. Iran's nuclear enrichment is already 60% and if Iran wants it to quickly increase to 90%. Don't you know there are so many military secrets in Iran's underground. Iran doesn't have to have aircraft carriers, destroyers, heavy bombers, and 5th generation stealth planes to deal with the US, what Iran needs is 'smart sense' how to destroy all of them. The main doctrine of Iran's foreign policy is to 'expel' Israeli Zionists from the Palestinian territories (NOT against the US directly). Iran has a clever war strategy (without having to harm their own territory), Iran will not fight Israel directly (unless Israel attacks Iran first) but when the TIME comes (after actually strengthening its proxies with lethal modern weapons and increasing the number of fighters), Israel will be attacked from all directions by Iranian proxies and plus Iran itself is secretly sending troops from Iraq to Syria. Iran wouldn't be stupid to attack the US first for no apparent reason, it's enough just stupid Nazi and japan. Nuclear war will not make one country victorious, there will only be ashes of death for everyone.


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## serenity

aryobarzan said:


> *The missile is "Fantastic"*....Just look at the deployment of large quantities...This is now a fully operational and deployed weapon.
> 
> Also the underground tunnels are amazing feast indeed. *Great job to IRGC.*.
> View attachment 814128
> View attachment 814129
> View attachment 814130
> View attachment 814131
> View attachment 814132
> View attachment 814133



Wow Iran's "Underground Great Wall". Are those the conical type HGV? There is a design type that is stepped cone in shape and four stabilizers. Looks very similar.

I see someone has mentioned it is like the common glide body type. Iran has mastered that quickly.

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## Muhammed45

scimitar19 said:


> Its a good concept but considering you will face an enemy with a potent naval ABM force such as AEGIS its rather questionable if this system can be effective.


The missile is a cruise platform hence radar evading in nature.

Also it is an ASW asset. The real challenges is detecting of Subs plus firing platform. Forward base ships are the best platforms to carry out the mission.

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## Arash1991

QWECXZ said:


> Define "defeated".
> 
> Do you think Iran can hurt the US mainland? How many ICBMs do you think Iran has? Well, as far as we know, zero. But even if we're wrong, let's assume that Iran has 100 ICBMs that can reach anywhere in the US. That's a big assumption, but let it be.
> 
> How many of these ICBMs do you think will reach the US territory? 40? 50? At such a long distance, none of these missiles can achieve anything of strategic or tactical importance except for terrorizing ordinary Americans. And how do you think the US would respond to it? Do you think 330 million Americans will accept to be terrorized by a far weaker nation?!
> 
> I mean at the most optimistic scenario, the US can attack Iran's infrastructure like power plants, dams, airports, etc. Nothing would remain functioning in Iran in such a scenario. The whole country will collapse after a few weeks without electricity, water, food, etc. At the worst case scenario, the US will just nuke the shit out of Tehran. The whole idea of attacking a nuclear power with ICBMs is a ridiculous joke.
> 
> Iran can NOT attack the United States, ever. Not today, not in 10 years, not even 20 years later. At the pace of Iran's advances, Iran will not be able to attack the US territory even 50 years later. As soon as Iran launches an ICBM towards the United States, the US has a justified reason to nuke Tehran. You cannot tell if an ICBM is conventional or carrying a nuclear warhead. So, they will just nuke Tehran and say they thought it was a nuclear ICBM.
> 
> So, the whole idea of touching the US territory is out of question. Can Iran painfully hurt US interests in the Middle East? Surely we can. We can take out their military bases, rain missiles on strategic assets of their allies, block vital energy routes (even though China is not going to like this one), and we can kill tens of thousands of their soldiers at the most optimistic scenario. The US does not want to pay this cost because well, who in their sane mind would accept this? But what if an insane person in the US takes power and finally reaches the conclusion that it is an acceptable price if they send Iran back to the stone age and solve the whole Iran issue for the next decades? And believe it or not, they can send Iran back to the stone age very easily. They have more than enough fire power for that in the Middle East alone.
> 
> So, come out of this delusional, ridiculous, childish, immature idea that Iran is in any way capable of defending itself against a nuclear super power like the United States without even obtaining nukes. All Iran can ever hope to do is to stop a US invasion and destroy US assets in the Middle East. That's all that Iran can do for the next many decades. The issue of attacking the US main land is completely out of question for Iran in the foreseeable future, and by foreseeable future I meany several decades later.
> 
> 
> Trump's lame "maximum pressure campaign" is the reason that Iran is negotiating with the US at this very moment. Have you forgotten Khamenei's bluff that Iran will never negotiate with the killers of Gen. Soleimani?





QWECXZ said:


> Guess what? We are negotiating with them, albeit indirectly.
> 
> And if you had a peanut in your head, you would've realized that just because something has not happened for 43 years, it doesn't rule out that it cannot happen in future. You guys barked all the time about how the US couldn't do a damn thing until finally Trump played tough and ordered to kill Soleimani just because he could. All it took him was a command to shoot Soleimani to one of his soldiers that had a clear sight of Soleimani's vehicle. And then Khamenei had to cry in front of cameras on national TV, claiming that they will take "revenge", but at an unknown time and an unknown place and in an unknown way. LOL



While Iran is in the process of enriching its uranium and is therefore the actor that controls time (through the continuous enrichment of uranium) and is also the one that can vary the pressure at will and at the same time has countries like Russia and China on its side (this is due to the misbehavior of the West in Ukraine, among others), the West has no other option than to accept any condition of Iran that is not worth a war. This is also the reason why the West initially wanted to include militias and missile program in the negotiations and has now reached a point where they are only satisfied that Iran cannot build the bomb in the foreseeable future. So they are satisfied only with their minimum goal and had to deviate from all other points while Iran can hold on to all other points. That Iran is in the stronger negotiating position was also clear before the current negotiations because the West can no longer dictate the pace of the negotiations. Iran controls and dominates the negotiation like a strong soccer team playing against a second division team. Iran knows full well that the West has no leverage except war (which is not even sure of its outcome) and war is an option that the West could only implement if Iran did not meet the West's ultimate demand. Iran controls the time and thus the speed of the negotiations. Iran has all the leverage in its hand while the West has only the ultima ratio leverage which cannot be used for trivialities. And up to this limit, Iran will play the game down to the end. 

Now to the military option: I don't have to say much about that, do I? Either you don't have any technical understanding, or you only read the cuddly toy department in this forum or what? But you have to browse around here a bit to read that this option would simply paralyze half the world. My speculation even goes so far that Iran could even build the bomb and even announce this with enough lead time for everyone and yet nobody would consider a military option against Iran. I think the military option is outdated. In the age of Iranian drones, HGV missiles, underground missile cities and massive Iranian allies in the region, Iran might just build the bomb. What Iran now has is militarily more significant than the nuclear weapon, since Iran is not threatening to destroy it (that's what nuclear powers do every time they threaten with nuclear weapons), but Iran's missiles enable Iran to defeat any opponent if necessary, without losing its infrastructure and its country having to destroy it. The aim of a war is actually never destruction but to force the opponent to fulfill his will. And if it needs to be conquered then it would be better for Iran to get its hands on the enemy's infrastructure intact than to destroy it beforehand.
If Iran develops nuclear weapons then this would lead to the USA sending even more troops to the Middle East and, above all, stationing their nuclear weapons there. This would create a Cold War like situation where the slightest mistake could lead to nuclear escalation. This would severely limit Iran's maneuverability in the Middle East. It would create a balance of power, but at the same time the goal of driving the United States out of the region would be a long way off. If necessary, Saudi Arabia and co. also develop nuclear weapons. (Which I don't necessarily believe, since the USA would certainly ensure security in the region with its own nuclear weapons).

So you notice the topic is much deeper than you think and you prefer to keep your propaganda to yourself. Thanks and bye

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## aryobarzan

serenity said:


> I see someone has mentioned it is like the common glide body type. Iran has mastered that quickly.


According to our resident missile experts in this forum the Warhead on this missile is considered an HGV warhead.


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## serenity

aryobarzan said:


> According to our resident missile experts in this forum the Warhead on this missile is considered an HGV warhead.



I recall seeing a file with a table of design shapes for HGVs from a Chinese source. That is of a few (I recall it was something like 4x5 so around 20) HGV designs that were done with some preliminary computing design work and simulation only.

Out of the 20 or so, many very strange geometries and winged ones but a few of those had types of conical shapes but varying geometry. One of them looks similar to what the US calls its common glide body design. It seems this is at least one HGV design type Iran mastered and can make now.

Iran having at least one HGV technology and weapons is quite a step up. The US is still yet to deploy their own types.

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## aryobarzan

serenity said:


> I recall seeing a file with a table of design shapes for HGVs from a Chinese source. That is of a few (I recall it was something like 4x5 so around 20) HGV designs that were done with some preliminary computing design work and simulation only.
> 
> Out of the 20 or so, many very strange geometries and winged ones but a few of those had types of conical shapes but varying geometry. One of them looks similar to what the US calls its common glide body design. It seems this is at least one HGV design type Iran mastered and can make now.
> 
> Iran having at least one HGV technology and weapons is quite a step up. The US is still yet to deploy their own types.


Iran has a Mach 8 wind tunnel that they built about a decade ago..It was only a matter of time for them to show some of the work that they have been doing using that facility.

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## serenity

aryobarzan said:


> Iran has a Mach 8 wind tunnel that they built about a decade ago..It was only a matter of time for them to show some of the work that they have been doing using that facility.



Yeah. I don't think there is too much room for either China or Russia to assist Iran in such a sensitive and strategically important field especially since both are regional and potentially can be attacked by such weapons. I know not possible as things are and how relations are but these are simply things that even close allies do not help with because they do not want even allies to have the technology and ability. If they require it, they may potentially sell and purchase the weapon directly.

So whatever HGV Iran develops I think would be mostly Iran's own development and mastering of the knowledge and technologies involved.

Hypersonic wind tunnel is absolutely necessary for such a thing. Or else a lot of wasted resources in trial and error data collecting.

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## Daylamite Warrior

serenity said:


> Iran having at least one HGV technology and weapons is quite a step up. The US is still yet to deploy their own types.


As much as Iranian scientists and military technology is very good considering the circumstances, we can't rule out ToT with China as part of this 25 year deal as being a reason why Iran has developed such an advanced weapon so quickly and quietly.

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## serenity

Daylamite Warrior said:


> As much as Iranian scientists and military technology is very good considering the circumstances, we can't rule out ToT with China as part of this 25 year deal as being a reason why Iran has developed such an advanced weapon so quickly and quietly.



While China may use this type of conical HGV as well I do not think there was ToT.

This is a sensitive weapon and a strategic weapon. These things are very rarely transferred or even taught. I'm sure Iranian scientists and engineers could master such things quickly if taught but giving ToT on antiship missiles is very different from giving it on strategic ballistic missiles of at least one form of technology that is almost unique in the world.

It would anger and upset USA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and potentially others. For no purpose. China and Iran can go ahead with cooperations and deals in every sphere without needing to transfer any HGV technology even if a small part of the puzzle.

I also do not think it would be in China's interest to do this even ignoring the regional players and typical allegiances.

There is absolutely no gain for China to transfer strategic weapons technologies. It can potentially even be used against China or its allies and neutral to good relation nations. No country likes even its ally getting a weapon class that they can do themselves, can make themselves and where China cannot control how the weapon is used. No benefit, only risk and potential unwanted attention and responsibility cast on by friendly or neutral nations to China.

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## StarmanInSpace

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492534565088468994Mobin cruise missile:


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## Daylamite Warrior

serenity said:


> While China may use this type of conical HGV as well I do not think there was ToT.
> 
> This is a sensitive weapon and a strategic weapon. These things are very rarely transferred or even taught. I'm sure Iranian scientists and engineers could master such things quickly if taught but giving ToT on antiship missiles is very different from giving it on strategic ballistic missiles of at least one form of technology that is almost unique in the world.
> 
> It would anger and upset USA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and potentially others. For no purpose. China and Iran can go ahead with cooperations and deals in every sphere without needing to transfer any HGV technology even if a small part of the puzzle.
> 
> I also do not think it would be in China's interest to do this even ignoring the regional players and typical allegiances.
> 
> There is absolutely no gain for China to transfer strategic weapons technologies. It can potentially even be used against China or its allies and neutral to good relation nations. No country likes even its ally getting a weapon class that they can do themselves, can make themselves and where China cannot control how the weapon is used. No benefit, only risk and potential unwanted attention and responsibility cast on by friendly or neutral nations to China.



There is a lot of "I think" in your post and not a lot of evidence. Why would China be fearful of "regional players"? Doesn't China also supply some of these "regional players" with lethal weapons as well? Isn't China in cold war with some of these "regional players"? Hasn't China also helped North Korea with their BM program, and they actually have nukes? Sorry but I dont see any logic in why China wouldn't help Iran, considering both Iran and China know full well they won't be used against China but rather against a common enemy. China doesn't particularly care about angering "regional players", when it openly takes very sensitive intellectual property from "regional players" and uses it openly on their domestic goods.

If Iran were to be attacked it would totally be in China's interest for Iran to be able to defend itself so I dont see why ToT of HGV shouldn't happen to a non-nuclear 3rd world country. I know you want to paint a picture of China being forced to deal with Iran, but the fact China has signed a 25 year deal with Iran, defends Iran better than Russia in UNSC and nuclear talks, and is in a cold war with the west pours cold water on this. China and Iran are close allies, whereas China and these "regional players" are merely business partners. Massive difference.


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## QWECXZ

Mata Elang said:


> You know, now what you're saying seems to be in a roundabout way and wishy-washy. Let me explain in a simple way. 'NO NUCLEAR WAR' as long as no one starts it first. How many ICBMs does the US have 400, 600 or 1000? Iran just needs to equalize the number or even more. Impossible? You are wrong! Iran, unlike the US, produces its missiles at a price 1000 times cheaper. Iran already has thousands of BM (then why can't Iran make thousands of ICBMs?). What's the problem with technology? Are you blind not to see the development of Iranian technology in solid and liquid ICBM rocket engines? Or the problem with nuclear enrichment technology? did you miss it again, Iran has made the advanced IR-9 centrifugal machine. Iran's nuclear enrichment is already 60% and if Iran wants it to quickly increase to 90%. Don't you know there are so many military secrets in Iran's underground. Iran doesn't have to have aircraft carriers, destroyers, heavy bombers, and 5th generation stealth planes to deal with the US, what Iran needs is 'smart sense' how to destroy all of them. The main doctrine of Iran's foreign policy is to 'expel' Israeli Zionists from the Palestinian territories (NOT against the US directly). Iran has a clever war strategy (without having to harm their own territory), Iran will not fight Israel directly (unless Israel attacks Iran first) but when the TIME comes (after actually strengthening its proxies with lethal modern weapons and increasing the number of fighters), Israel will be attacked from all directions by Iranian proxies and plus Iran itself is secretly sending troops from Iraq to Syria. Iran wouldn't be stupid to attack the US first for no apparent reason, it's enough just stupid Nazi and japan. Nuclear war will not make one country victorious, there will only be ashes of death for everyone.


You are joking. Right? Please tell me that you are joking.
You are seriously talking about US ICBMs and equalizing them? As if that mattered? Iran just needs to equalize that? Please tell me you are joking.

Dude, the US has like 80 nukes stationed right here in our neighborhood in Turkey. How much do you think it takes for those missiles to reach Tehran? 5 minutes? The US carrier groups carry Tomahawk missiles which are capable of carrying nuclear warheads if needed. The US has over tens of stealth strategic bombers and tens of other non-stealth strategic bombers that each are capable of carrying a payload of over 20 tonnes. How do you want to equalize that when you cannot mass produce even F-5 at home after decades? Add to this their submarines that are capable of launching nuclear missiles. Are you f*cking kidding me?

Stop talking about equalizing the United States. It's ridiculous. All of these toys that currently Iran possess (and yeah, they are game changing weapons that can definitely hurt US interests in the region) are good only for a regional conflict. The US will remain out of our reach and we can never equalize their military prowess in our life times. Maybe 100 years later, who knows? But certainly not in our life times.

Israel is a different matter though. Israel lacks strategic depth and it's a small nation with limited resources. It doesn't take much to finish them off. But the US is a completely different beast. But even Israel is armed with strategic nukes in the order of hundreds of megatonnes and that gives them complete deterrence against Iran.


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492589466229346304

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## QWECXZ

Arash1991 said:


> While Iran is in the process of enriching its uranium and is therefore the actor that controls time (through the continuous enrichment of uranium) and is also the one that can vary the pressure at will and at the same time has countries like Russia and China on its side (this is due to the misbehavior of the West in Ukraine, among others), the West has no other option than to accept any condition of Iran that is not worth a war. This is also the reason why the West initially wanted to include militias and missile program in the negotiations and has now reached a point where they are only satisfied that Iran cannot build the bomb in the foreseeable future. So they are satisfied only with their minimum goal and had to deviate from all other points while Iran can hold on to all other points. That Iran is in the stronger negotiating position was also clear before the current negotiations because the West can no longer dictate the pace of the negotiations. Iran controls and dominates the negotiation like a strong soccer team playing against a second division team. Iran knows full well that the West has no leverage except war (which is not even sure of its outcome) and war is an option that the West could only implement if Iran did not meet the West's ultimate demand. Iran controls the time and thus the speed of the negotiations. Iran has all the leverage in its hand while the West has only the ultima ratio leverage which cannot be used for trivialities. And up to this limit, Iran will play the game down to the end.
> 
> Now to the military option: I don't have to say much about that, do I? Either you don't have any technical understanding, or you only read the cuddly toy department in this forum or what? But you have to browse around here a bit to read that this option would simply paralyze half the world. My speculation even goes so far that Iran could even build the bomb and even announce this with enough lead time for everyone and yet nobody would consider a military option against Iran. I think the military option is outdated. In the age of Iranian drones, HGV missiles, underground missile cities and massive Iranian allies in the region, Iran might just build the bomb. What Iran now has is militarily more significant than the nuclear weapon, since Iran is not threatening to destroy it (that's what nuclear powers do every time they threaten with nuclear weapons), but Iran's missiles enable Iran to defeat any opponent if necessary, without losing its infrastructure and its country having to destroy it. The aim of a war is actually never destruction but to force the opponent to fulfill his will. And if it needs to be conquered then it would be better for Iran to get its hands on the enemy's infrastructure intact than to destroy it beforehand.
> If Iran develops nuclear weapons then this would lead to the USA sending even more troops to the Middle East and, above all, stationing their nuclear weapons there. This would create a Cold War like situation where the slightest mistake could lead to nuclear escalation. This would severely limit Iran's maneuverability in the Middle East. It would create a balance of power, but at the same time the goal of driving the United States out of the region would be a long way off. If necessary, Saudi Arabia and co. also develop nuclear weapons. (Which I don't necessarily believe, since the USA would certainly ensure security in the region with its own nuclear weapons).
> 
> So you notice the topic is much deeper than you think and you prefer to keep your propaganda to yourself. Thanks and bye


A bunch of worthless blah blah blah.

First of all, you are clearly clueless if you think time is on Iran's side. It is not. Iran already possesses enough uranium to build several nukes (and we had reached this point months ago) but there's clearly a lack of political willingness for that for unknown reasons. If you have enough uranium but yet you do not have the cojones to go for it and build nukes, then time is not on your side at all because you are stockpiling something that is of no use to you. Iran's stockpile of uranium is quite useless for any civilian purpose as it is too little and insignificant. Iran's enrichment program and stockpile of uranium are nowhere near our civilian needs for even one operational reactor at Bushehr. Bushehr alone requires an enrichment capacity of 190,000 SWU UF6 Kg/year and Iran doesn't possess even one tenth of this at the moment. Bushehr needs about 27 tonnes of 3.5% enriched uranium and again, we're nowhere near this number yet. And this is only for one year. Trump pulled out of JCPOA in what year? 2018? And yet we are not even remotely close to one year worth of enriched uranium for operating Bushehr. 

In short, if Iran does not intend to use this enriched uranium stockpile for nuclear weapons, Iran is just being used as Russia's slave to spend money on an energy-intensive enrichment process only to hand it over to Putin at the end for a short period of sanctions relief. That's pretty much the scale of Iran's nuclear program.

So, is time on Iran's side because we are stockpiling something useless only to hand it over to Russia at the end? Nope, it is not because there is no plan here. Khamenei does not seem to have the balls to go nuclear. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia, our regional adversary, is enjoying hundreds of billions of oil money sold at $95 per barrel while Iran is left with only China who buys not even remotely the same amount of oil from us than from Saudi Arabia, and even that is at a discounted price.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> The price happens to be an integral part of the equation. It makes no sense to say "they can do it but they consider the price to be prohibitive, so Iran will lose / has lost". Actually, this is in line with what I wrote above: that the US has no cost-effective military option. If it's too costly, then they will not attack. And it's too costly precisely because Iran's military prowess will extract that heavy price from them. This is called deterrence.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not containment when Iran's reach has kept expanding for the past four decades. Also, the US's strategic goal is not to simply contain Iran: it is to finish Iran off.
> 
> 
> 
> All is far from being good for the US. The imperial oligarchy does not consider this status quo with Iran as satisfactory. It has no tolerance for independent states, let alone one that is seriously challenging their interests. Hence why they're going out of their way to exploit every realistic means at their disposal to achieve "regime change" in Iran. But are failing at it.
> 
> 
> 
> I addressed this above: by killers, the previous administration was meant, those who were directly involved in it. No negotiation took place with the Trump regime, and its attempts to force Iran back to the table were definitely unsuccessful.
> 
> 
> 
> JCPOA limitations were reversed to a significant extent, and surely that's not what the US was aiming for. So to me that equals another failure of the so-called "maximum pressure" policy of Trump.
> 
> Either way, the assassination of martyr Soleimani did really nothing to limit Iran's nuclear program, did it? Iran returning to the negotiation table has nothing to do with the assassination. QED.


You are missing the whole point of this "price" theory, I guess. All of that is based on the assumption that your opponent is a rational player. And "price" is a relative concept. What will happen when an irrational player like Trump takes power and he finds billions of dollars of damage and thousands of dead US soldiers a reasonable price to pay for completely neutralizing Iran's threat for a foreseeable future? Or even worse: a psychopath like Pompeo becomes the next POTUS. I have said it and I will repeat it again that Trump is in fact an angel when it comes to psychopath scumbags like Pompeo. And you think it is totally impossible for someone like Pompeo to become the next US president?

Iran hasn't expanded much in the last 10 years. Expanded in what sense exactly? Iran's economic growth has been halted since 2009. Our progress in science has been slowed down (partly due to the previous administration). One of our strategic allies in the region is in the middle of a civil war that seems endless and it cannot stand on its own feet yet. Our influence in Iraq surely has decreased, even though it remains very strong but it is nowhere near what it was before the assassination of Gen. Soleimani.

I am surprised that a person like you is unaware of the US regime change plans. The US is not seeking a military option with Iran because as I told you, there's no reason for that. Iran is a country of 85 million people that can defend itself to the point of inflicting hundred billions of dollars of damage to US assets and interests and a ground invasion of Iran is out of question. Iran is not an existential threat to the US and it cannot be anything like that for foreseeable future. You can chant "Down with the US" all you want but you cannot do anything to the US territory as we all know it (or at least anyone with a functioning brain knows). The US has chosen a different path. The US is using her media and cultural dominance to turn Iranians against their own country and they are focusing on civil disobedience, riots and ethnic tensions. Meanwhile, US sanctions ensure that Iran's growth will be halted and Iran will never dominate the Middle East. At the very same time, the US is stealing Iran's money under a unilateral sanction regime that is not even UN approved anymore but they have successfully convinced their allies to abide by them. It is not the US that should be dissatisfied with the status quo for sure.

General McKenzie, the US CENTCOM's commander that oversaw the US assassination of Gen. Soleimani under the Trump administration continues to be here in our region. If you want to say that the previous administration is out and now it's OK to sit at the negotiating table with the Americans, then sorry, but that's really lame.

Some of the JCPOA limitations are still in place. What happened to kicking the IAEA inspectors out? I thought we had an ultimatum and we were supposed to reduce IAEA inspections? Even the new administration has not fully executed the parliament's nuclear resolution.

What did Gen. Soleimani have to do with Iran's nuclear program? I never linked the two, I have no idea why you think his death must have an impact on our nuclear program.

@Arash1991 @Mata Elang @SalarHaqq We're off topic here. If you want to continue this discussion, mention me in the Iranian Chill Thread please.


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## Mata Elang

QWECXZ said:


> You are joking. Right? Please tell me that you are joking.
> You are seriously talking about US ICBMs and equalizing them? As if that mattered? Iran just needs to equalize that? Please tell me you are joking.
> 
> Dude, the US has like 80 nukes stationed right here in our neighborhood in Turkey. How much do you think it takes for those missiles to reach Tehran? 5 minutes? The US carrier groups carry Tomahawk missiles which are capable of carrying nuclear warheads if needed. The US has over tens of stealth strategic bombers and tens of other non-stealth strategic bombers that each are capable of carrying a payload of over 20 tonnes. How do you want to equalize that when you cannot mass produce even F-5 at home after decades? Add to this their submarines that are capable of launching nuclear missiles. Are you f*cking kidding me?
> 
> Stop talking about equalizing the United States. It's ridiculous. All of these toys that currently Iran possess (and yeah, they are game changing weapons that can definitely hurt US interests in the region) are good only for a regional conflict. The US will remain out of our reach and we can never equalize their military prowess in our life times. Maybe 100 years later, who knows? But certainly not in our life times.
> 
> Israel is a different matter though. Israel lacks strategic depth and it's a small nation with limited resources. It doesn't take much to finish them off. But the US is a completely different beast. But even Israel is armed with strategic nukes in the order of hundreds of megatonnes and that gives them complete deterrence against Iran.


Now you are starting to look confused. How far is Turkey to Iran? the answer is 0 meters. If Traitor Turkey dares to give US permission to launch nuclear weapons from its territory into Iran, then Turkey must be prepared to feel a nuclear shock and become uninhabitable. Aircraft carriers, heavy bombers, stealth aircraft? Are you kidding? Even the US aircraft carriers do not dare to enter the Persian Gulf region, if it is proven that the US aircraft carriers launched nuclear weapons, Iran does not need to use BM with conventional warheads to destroy them but uses nuclear warheads. US heavy bombers will no longer be able to fly within 500 km of the Iranian border. Stealth aircraft? Are you kidding me again, I'm telling you they're not exactly stealth, and Iranian radars have proven that they detect and take them down. One more thing before their stealth planes fly, they will be destroyed at their base. You keep shouting incoherently and worshiping the US empire too much. Even a mighty lion could be killed by 100 bees that were 100,000 thousand smaller in size.

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## QWECXZ

Mata Elang said:


> Now you are starting to look confused. How far is Turkey to Iran? the answer is 0 meters. If Traitor Turkey dares to give US permission to launch nuclear weapons from its territory into Iran, then Turkey must be prepared to feel a nuclear shock and become uninhabitable. Aircraft carriers, heavy bombers, stealth aircraft? Are you kidding? Even the US aircraft carriers do not dare to enter the Persian Gulf region, if it is proven that the US aircraft carriers launched nuclear weapons, Iran does not need to use BM with conventional warheads to destroy them but uses nuclear warheads. US heavy bombers will no longer be able to fly within 500 km of the Iranian border. Stealth aircraft? Are you kidding me again, I'm telling you they're not exactly stealth, and Iranian radars have proven that they detect and take them down. One more thing before their stealth planes fly, they will be destroyed at their base. You keep shouting incoherently and worshiping the US empire too much. Even a mighty lion could be killed by 100 bees that were 100,000 thousand smaller in size.


No, you sound confused actually.
If they nuke Tehran, no nuclear fallout would reach Turkey. Not even close. Please do some research before saying uneducated things like this. Radiation won't go beyond normal levels even in the easternmost regions of Turkey. At most, they'll have to take iodine tablets but even that would probably not be necessary. Even Tabriz would be more or less safe, let alone Turkey.

Dude, what nuclear warheads are you talking about? Since when Iran has nuclear warheads? That's the whole point of my discussion. Iran needs nuclear warheads. Ever heard of B-2 Spirit? Do you know its operational range? Do you think the US needs to enter the Persian Gulf to nuke Iran?

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## Mata Elang

QWECXZ said:


> No, you sound confused actually.
> If they nuke Tehran, no nuclear fallout would reach Turkey. Not even close. Please do some research before saying uneducated things like this. Radiation won't go beyond normal levels even in the easternmost regions of Turkey. At most, they'll have to take iodine tablets but even that would probably not be necessary. Even Tabriz would be more or less safe, let alone Turkey.
> 
> Dude, what nuclear warheads are you talking about? Since when Iran has nuclear warheads? That's the whole point of my discussion. Iran needs nuclear warheads. Ever heard of B-2 Spirit? Do you know its operational range? Do you think the US needs to enter the Persian Gulf to nuke Iran?


See, you don't understand what I'm saying, If Turkey allows the US to launch nuclear weapons from its territory, then Iran has the right to destroy Turkey with nuclear weapons too, remember Turkey's distance is 0 meters from the Iranian border, so Iran only takes seconds not minutes. You were the first to speak! You said even if Iran had ICBMs with nuclear warheads, they could not win against the US (then I answered your statement). Are you blind Iran has blatantly enriched 60% uranium, and that's not including the secret. B-2 Spirits? Did you not read what I wrote above?

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## Titanium100

Arash1991 said:


> While Iran is in the process of enriching its uranium and is therefore the actor that controls time (through the continuous enrichment of uranium) and is also the one that can vary the pressure at will and at the same time has countries like Russia and China on its side (this is due to the misbehavior of the West in Ukraine, among others), the West has no other option than to accept any condition of Iran that is not worth a war. This is also the reason why the West initially wanted to include militias and missile program in the negotiations and has now reached a point where they are only satisfied that Iran cannot build the bomb in the foreseeable future. So they are satisfied only with their minimum goal and had to deviate from all other points while Iran can hold on to all other points. That Iran is in the stronger negotiating position was also clear before the current negotiations because the West can no longer dictate the pace of the negotiations. Iran controls and dominates the negotiation like a strong soccer team playing against a second division team. Iran knows full well that the West has no leverage except war (which is not even sure of its outcome) and war is an option that the West could only implement if Iran did not meet the West's ultimate demand. Iran controls the time and thus the speed of the negotiations. Iran has all the leverage in its hand while the West has only the ultima ratio leverage which cannot be used for trivialities. And up to this limit, Iran will play the game down to the end.
> 
> Now to the military option: I don't have to say much about that, do I? Either you don't have any technical understanding, or you only read the cuddly toy department in this forum or what? But you have to browse around here a bit to read that this option would simply paralyze half the world.



I don't think you fully comprehend the military dynamics because a ground incursion will be a bonafida success without much issues and I mean as in liberation village by village it is conventionally achievable a multiple front storm from multiple sectors and after army is grinded down a civilian guerrila insurgency will emerge from different pockets subdue'ing them could take 2 years it won't be high intensity insurgency tho..

Israel is pushing for this type of invasion but some are holding this on pause because there is benefit in Iran for them and they hold all the keys for an easy successful invasion meaning they have the conventional manpower needed.. Iran has created nuclear proliferation in the region and honestly deal or no JCPOA it is the same shxt the profileration has started and in advantage for the region which means everyone will get his for asurance and it is not debatable.. The only thing that can reverse this is an invasion into Iran itself as the last option in 2025.. The profileration benefits them more in the long term so I could see them holding on pause an invasion until everyone gets what he wants which is the bomb and the region could become major power in the long term if things easily play out like that you can remove iran today but your future could be brighter like the shinning stars so you allow competition to silently go ahead..


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## QWECXZ

Mata Elang said:


> See, you don't understand what I'm saying, If Turkey allows the US to launch nuclear weapons from its territory, then Iran has the right to destroy Turkey with nuclear weapons too, remember Turkey's distance is 0 meters from the Iranian border, so Iran only takes seconds not minutes. You were the first to speak! You said even if Iran had ICBMs with nuclear warheads, they could not win against the US (then I answered your statement). Are you blind Iran has blatantly enriched 60% uranium, and that's not including the secret. B-2 Spirits? Did you not read what I wrote above?


You want to nuke Turkey with what? Your imagination? Iran has no nukes. That's the whole f*cking point of my posts.

The whole point of discussion is that Iran must obtain nuclear weapons. Even in your initial comment you said that you didn't disagree with it, which proves that it was the main point of the discussion.

You didn't say nuclear ICBMs, you said ICBMs. You said all Iran had to do was to equalize our number of ICBMs with the US! But even with nuclear ICBMs, Iran would lose to the US in a nuclear war for obvious reasons. Not only Iran, even China would lose. Russia can defeat the US, but that's it. No other country can come close to the US nuclear capabilities except for Russia. But the point is that a nuclear war where both sides are armed with +100 kilotonne weapons is incredibly unlikely to the point that one could claim it's impossible. Look at North Korea for example. They have an outdated army that stands no chance against even South Korea, yet even the US does not dare to mess with them.

What good is 60% enrichment if Iran does not plan to use it for nuclear bombs? What civilian application does 60% enrichment have for Iran at this moment? We don't have nuclear submarines. We don't have reactors that use 60%-enriched uranium. This whole 60% move is in fact quite stupid and lame if it's not meant for nuclear bargaining or nuclear weapons because if we don't use it for building nukes, we'll have to eventually dilute it back to 3.5% or 20% for using it in fuel rods or send it abroad after a new deal. And in reality, it doesn't reduce Iran's breakout time that much. 20% enrichment is much more useful than 60% enrichment. This 60% figure is rather a political statement than one with technical justifications in reality.

And please let's continue this discussion in the Iranian Chill Thread. We are off topic here.


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## serenity

Daylamite Warrior said:


> There is a lot of "I think" in your post and not a lot of evidence. Why would China be fearful of "regional players"? Doesn't China also supply some of these "regional players" with lethal weapons as well? Isn't China in cold war with some of these "regional players"? Hasn't China also helped North Korea with their BM program, and they actually have nukes?



I admit when I say I think that this is purely personal take and no evidence. Otherwise I would not say I think.

In fact you owe yourself some modesty and admit the same. Everything you said... is it not also your totally unfounded opinion?

At least I gave my reasons. And here I will explain them again.

China doesn't like regional players friends or foe to have strategic weapons. China may have sold or given North Korea a version of DF-ZF HGV. This is possible but this means it is controlled by China is it not the case? How those North Korean HGV are launched (if given or sold to them by China) is decided by China. In fact the whole point of that may have been to be able to give Japan an escalation but without tying to back to China. As in the HGV weapons may be used in case Japan decides to get more involved with Taiwan, then North Korea on China's behalf (but without the connection) may be using HGV to attack Japan in a counter escalation move.

Have you noticed yet? This HGV (if sold to or given) is not developed by North Korea and if it was developed by North Korea alone, then it is shown again that China didn't help with them and clearly would prefer that regional players do not have high end strategic weapons.

China did not help North Korea with their nuclear program. China was extremely opposed to it and disliked North Korea gaining nuclear ability without direct Chinese control... unlike any case of Chinese given HGV to NK. There is no benefit to China with a nuclear armed NK. It only makes strategic calculus more complicated and unpredictable elements introduced while the inherent dangers with nukes exist.

Why would China help Iran with ballistic missiles?? That is up to you to prove not me.

I already explained that there is a big difference between weapons like SAMs and anti ship missiles and ballistic missiles. An arms dealer may sell you a pistol but that doesn't mean they will sell you a nuke even though both can be described as "deadly".



Daylamite Warrior said:


> Sorry but I dont see any logic in why China wouldn't help Iran, considering both Iran and China know full well they won't be used against China but rather against a common enemy. China doesn't particularly care about angering "regional players", when it openly takes very sensitive intellectual property from "regional players" and uses it openly on their domestic goods.



What? Iranian regional ranged weapons won't be used against China yes with 99.999% certainty for foreseeable future but can you say the same for the next 500 years?

No one knows how these relations develop over time. Hopefully no need to war and tensions and hopefully peace between China and Iran till a stage when humans do not need such weapons. BUT you cannot be sure of any of this.

Also what common enemy? Israel? Saudi Arabia? Neither of those are Chinese enemies. China should not get involved in those politics. The more politicized a country becomes, the worse off it will become. And those things China needs to stay as far away from as possible. As for USA? Well those missiles cannot reach USA. So tell me which "common enemy" they are to be used on? I didn't say Iran will attack China with them. FAR from that! I said China like every other country, does not like regional neighbors to have very advanced strategic weapons whether those neighbors are friends or foe... of course rather they are friends but the rule is a principle with clear and obvious logic. No point your neighbors have strong weapons even if they are friendly neighbors because it NEVER benefits you. Therefore why would China have helped Iran with HGV?



Daylamite Warrior said:


> If Iran were to be attacked it would totally be in China's interest for Iran to be able to defend itself so I dont see why ToT of HGV shouldn't happen to a non-nuclear 3rd world country. I know you want to paint a picture of China being forced to deal with Iran, but the fact China has signed a 25 year deal with Iran, defends Iran better than Russia in UNSC and nuclear talks, and is in a cold war with the west pours cold water on this. China and Iran are close allies, whereas China and these "regional players" are merely business partners. Massive difference.




Yes I agree. But this can mean other types and forms of support. If China directly gave them those missiles, then I can see the logic but here Iran can make those missiles themselves and these missiles are their own types. It shows they have independently already mastered the missile and HGV tech in this form. This contradicts what I said above about okay with giving it directly and then controlling use (like what could have been the case for NK) and no okay with allowing a regional neighbor to master the thing and be able to do it themselves. Therefore again it's unlike China to do such a thing. Selling anti-ship missiles and fast attack boats is not the same as selling or ToT on strategic weapons.

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## Mata Elang

QWECXZ said:


> You want to nuke Turkey with what? Your imagination? Iran has no nukes. That's the whole f*cking point of my posts.
> 
> The whole point of discussion is that Iran must obtain nuclear weapons. Even in your initial comment you said that you didn't disagree with it, which proves that it was the main point of the discussion.
> 
> You didn't say nuclear ICBMs, you said ICBMs. You said all Iran had to do was to equalize our number of ICBMs with the US! But even with nuclear ICBMs, Iran would lose to the US in a nuclear war for obvious reasons. Not only Iran, even China would lose. Russia can defeat the US, but that's it. No other country can come close to the US nuclear capabilities except for Russia. But the point is that a nuclear war where both sides are armed with +100 kilotonne weapons is incredibly unlikely to the point that one could claim it's impossible. Look at North Korea for example. They have an outdated army that stands no chance against even South Korea, yet even the US does not dare to mess with them.
> 
> What good is 60% enrichment if Iran does not plan to use it for nuclear bombs? What civilian application does 60% enrichment have for Iran at this moment? We don't have nuclear submarines. We don't have reactors that use 60%-enriched uranium. This whole 60% move is in fact quite stupid and lame if it's not meant for nuclear bargaining or nuclear weapons because if we don't use it for building nukes, we'll have to eventually dilute it back to 3.5% or 20% for using it in fuel rods or send it abroad after a new deal. And in reality, it doesn't reduce Iran's breakout time that much. 20% enrichment is much more useful than 60% enrichment. This 60% figure is rather a political statement than one with technical justifications in reality.
> 
> And please let's continue this discussion in the Iranian Chill Thread. We are off topic here.


Well, it seems you didn't read carefully. Try to read slowly and try to understand the whole, so that your speech does not go round and round and wishy-washy. Just look at the example of your comment about Iran's 60% nuclear enrichment, you look confused and making it up. Haven't you read, this comment of yours actually reinforces the allegation that Iran has nuclear weapons. With 60% enrichment Iran could have increased it much faster to 90% or maybe Iran already has 90% enrichment in a secret underground, (remember this is Raesi's hardline government, which has said it doesn't care if the JCPOA talks fail). Why did Iran make the super-fast IR-9 advanced centrifuge, if Iran only enriched 3.5% (following the JCPOA)? The answer is obvious if you try to reflect on it more deeply.

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> I do believe the Haj Qasem missile is still being mass-produced, since as far as I understand, it is supposed to be Iran’s primary Israel-range missile for its underground missile canisters. When the missile was unveiled it got mentioned that a future version of Haj Qasem could have an extended range of 1800 km, for which most likely a HGV similar to the one demonstrated with Kheybar-Shekan would be necessary.


The reason I am suspicious is because I see no reason to produce it when the Kheybar-Shekan can be produced faster, cheaper and is lighter with the same or similar range. KS should be suitable for canister launch as well.

Maybe the version unveiled is under production but it's not deployed until it's range can be extended to 1800km using a conical or maybe if we are surprised, a wedge shaped glider. The glider for the KS, is clearly superior to the original HQ that was shown.

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492589466229346304
> View attachment 814953
> View attachment 814954
> View attachment 814955


How long you guys think this missile has been fully developed and deployed?

I'd wage 2 years perhaps assuming this is only a small part of the inventory. 

They took their time unveiling this one lol.

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> How long you guys think this missile has been fully developed and deployed?
> 
> I'd wage 2 years perhaps assuming this is only a small part of the inventory.
> 
> They took their time unveiling this one lol.


honnestly I doubt that , other wise there was no reason to build Haj Qasem ( well actually there is one and that's faster reentry ) 
my guess is they built Haj Qasem but some newer technology become ready and since then they saw by applying those technologies to Dezful they can build a similar missile but a more mobile and far cheaper one so they changed production line to Kheybar-Shekan .
the missile must be fairly (some time after Haj- Qasem so I doubt the inventory is much larger at the time

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## QWECXZ

Mata Elang said:


> Well, it seems you didn't read carefully. Try to read slowly and try to understand the whole, so that your speech does not go round and round and wishy-washy. Just look at the example of your comment about Iran's 60% nuclear enrichment, you look confused and making it up. Haven't you read, this comment of yours actually reinforces the allegation that Iran has nuclear weapons. With 60% enrichment Iran could have increased it much faster to 90% or maybe Iran already has 90% enrichment in a secret underground, (remember this is Raesi's hardline government, which has said it doesn't care if the JCPOA talks fail). Why did Iran make the super-fast IR-9 advanced centrifuge, if Iran only enriched 3.5% (following the JCPOA)? The answer is obvious if you try to reflect on it more deeply.


Dude, your whole posts are so empty of logic and new content for me that even in normal speed, I am reading your posts too slowly for the time they deserve.

My comment is quite clear for anyone that actually understands the matter. The 60%-enriched stockpile of uranium that Iran has at the moment is of no use to Iran if it's not intended for nuclear bombs. It has no civilian application for Iran and if we reach a deal with the West, we'll have to dilute it down to 3.5% again, or send it abroad. Can we use it to make bombs? Yes, but not when the IAEA inspectors are measuring every gram of it and report it 24/7. How can we use it to make nuclear bombs? Well, at the very least, we must kick the IAEA inspectors out and leave the NPT officially. Leaving the NPT officially requires a 3 month notice to the agency. As long as our enrichment facilities are under 24/7 surveillance and we are publicly saying that we do not seek nuclear weapons, this whole 60%-enrichment is nothing but an expensive political statement which is expiring and losing its importance as time passes by. This is a great move only if Iran shows determination to further escalate things to get what it wants. Otherwise, it's lame.

And there isn't much difference between 20%-enriched uranium and 60%-enriched uranium in terms of the time it takes to reach 90%. 20%-enriched uranium is right on the edge of moving towards HEU. Once you've enriched uranium to 20%, you've already done like 83% of the job. Going to 60% does not really give you much advantage in comparison to going from 3.5% to 20%. And considering its costs and Iran's clear lack of use for it, it is not a sustainable move in the long run.

The "super-fast" IR-9 has not been mass-produced yet. In fact, it may have not been fully tested yet unless you can show me reports that they have injected gas into cascades of it. Iran's most-efficient centrifuge in use at this moment that can be mass-produced is IR-6. But that's not the point. Iran has already good enough centrifuges for uranium enrichment. The problem is not with Iran's inventory of centrifuges anymore. The problem is with poor decision making and lack of a clear strategy regarding the nuclear program.

Anyway, we are polluting this thread with off topic stuff. Next time please continue this discussion in the Iranian Chill Thread or the thread we have for Iran's nuclear program.

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## Mata Elang

QWECXZ said:


> Dude, your whole posts are so empty of logic and new content for me that even in normal speed, I am reading your posts too slowly for the time they deserve.
> My comment is quite clear for anyone that actually understands the matter. The 60%-enriched stockpile of uranium that Iran has at the moment is of no use to Iran if it's not intended for nuclear bombs. It has no civilian application for Iran and if we reach a deal with the West, we'll have to dilute it down to 3.5% again, or send it abroad. Can we use it to make bombs? Yes, but not when the IAEA inspectors are measuring every gram of it and report it 24/7. How can we use it to make nuclear bombs? Well, at the very least, we must kick the IAEA inspectors out and leave the NPT officially. Leaving the NPT officially requires a 3 month notice to the agency. As long as our enrichment facilities are under 24/7 surveillance and we are publicly saying that we do not seek nuclear weapons, this whole 60%-enrichment is nothing but an expensive political statement which is expiring and losing its importance as time passes by. This is a great move only if Iran shows determination to further escalate things to get what it wants. Otherwise, it's lame.
> 
> And there isn't much difference between 20%-enriched uranium and 60%-enriched uranium in terms of the time it takes to reach 90%. 20%-enriched uranium is right on the edge of moving towards HEU. Once you've enriched uranium to 20%, you've already done like 83% of the job. Going to 60% does not really give you much advantage in comparison to going from 3.5% to 20%. And considering its costs and Iran's clear lack of use for it, it is not a sustainable move in the long run.
> 
> The "super-fast" IR-9 has not been mass-produced yet. In fact, it may have not been fully tested yet unless you can show me reports that they have injected gas into cascades of it. Iran's most-efficient centrifuge in use at this moment that can be mass-produced is IR-6. But that's not the point. Iran has already good enough centrifuges for uranium enrichment. The problem is not with Iran's inventory of centrifuges anymore. The problem is with poor decision making and lack of a clear strategy regarding the nuclear program.
> 
> Anyway, we are polluting this thread with off topic stuff. Next time please continue this discussion in the Iranian Chill Thread or the thread we have for Iran's nuclear program.


From this I can tell, you know nothing about Iran's nuclear program. The current President of Iran is Ebrahim Raesi not Hassan Rouhani (Liberal, sycophant and worshiper of JCPOA). Iran has distrusted the US for breaking promises in terms of the JCPOA (there is no guarantee that the next US administration will comply with the JCPOA). So Iran's 60% nuclear enrichment is not for political purposes but on the contrary as you said "it was meant for nuclear bombs". The West has said Iran is slow down negotiations so it can stockpile and enrich its nuclear arsenal. The IAEA is currently blind to the exact amount of Iran's nuclear enrichment. The IAEA itself suspects that Iran has a secret nuclear enrichment facility (so Iran is 'smart' toying with the IAEA, Iran does not need to announce its nuclear bomb program if it only troubles Iran, so once again Iran is smart to hide it). Your comment about the IR-9 centrifuge is funny, so I don't need to comment on it. You can reply to what I wrote in the Iran nuclear thread.

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## QWECXZ

Mata Elang said:


> From this I can tell, you know nothing about Iran's nuclear program. The current President of Iran is Ebrahim Raesi not Hassan Rouhani (Liberal, sycophant and worshiper of JCPOA). Iran has distrusted the US for breaking promises in terms of the JCPOA (there is no guarantee that the next US administration will comply with the JCPOA). So Iran's 60% nuclear enrichment is not for political purposes but on the contrary as you said "it was meant for nuclear bombs". The West has said Iran is slow down negotiations so it can stockpile and enrich its nuclear arsenal. The IAEA is currently blind to the exact amount of Iran's nuclear enrichment. The IAEA itself suspects that Iran has a secret nuclear enrichment facility (so Iran is 'smart' toying with the IAEA, Iran does not need to announce its nuclear bomb program if it only troubles Iran, so once again Iran is smart to hide it). Your comment about the IR-9 centrifuge is funny, so I don't need to comment on it. You can reply to what I wrote in the Iran nuclear thread.


I have already explained to you that Iran's 60%-enriched uranium is under 24/7 surveillance and continuous inspections by the IAEA. Not even a gram of it can be moved out of our nuclear facilities without the IAEA getting informed. And I have already explained to you that stockpiling 60%-enriched uranium is nothing to brag about without a clear strategy because it is nothing but an expensive burden that will be either handed over to Russia or diluted down to 3.5% after a deal is signed, rendering it a complete waste of money and energy. And Rouhani is already out, but we haven't seen much from Raeesi since August that shows a different path has been taken by the Iranian leadership. Even the parliament's resolution that was passed last year has not been implemented even by half and it was supposed to get fully implemented by the end of this year. The reconstruction of the IR-40 reactor has not even started yet and even the new administration does not intend to stick to the old design. I have already explained everything that there is to explain to someone like you, if you can't get it, then it's not my problem. This is the end of this discussion.


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## Messerschmitt

Stryker1982 said:


> The reason I am suspicious is because I see no reason to produce it when the Kheybar-Shekan can be produced faster, cheaper and is lighter with the same or similar range. KS should be suitable for canister launch as well.
> 
> Maybe the version unveiled is under production but it's not deployed until it's range can be extended to 1800km using a conical or maybe if we are surprised, a wedge shaped glider. The glider for the KS, is clearly superior to the original HQ that was shown.


I remember Patarames mentioning in a blog post that Haj Qasem’s stabilizer fin configuration indicate that the missile is specifically designed for launch from missile containers. While Zolfaghar, Dezful and Kheybar-Shekan can also be launched from missile containers, it makes sense to have a missile dedicated and tailored to that specific launch method. Kheybar-Shekan appears to have the same diameter as Zolfaghar/Dezful, while Haj Qasem has a bigger diameter and thus more room to grow both in range and payload. When Haj Qasem was presented to the public, its MaRV was a variant of the same reentry vehicles being used by Zolfaghar/Dezful. Now that the IRGC-ASF has proven HGV technology with Kheybar-Shekan, we should expect them to be working on using it for Haj Qasem if they haven’t succeeded in it already. A large number of Haj Qasem missiles with carbon-fiber filament motor casings similar to those used by Zoheir (Raad-500) and HGVs derived from Kheybar-Shekan, ready to be fired at any time from underground missile farms would have a great deterrence effect against regional powers. Kheybar-Shekan is more like an upgraded Dezful, while Haj Qasem is a niche weapon designed for Iran’s missile farms with more room for improvement, atleast to my understanding.

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## Arash1991

QWECXZ said:


> I have already explained to you that Iran's 60%-enriched uranium is under 24/7 surveillance and continuous inspections by the IAEA. Not even a gram of it can be moved out of our nuclear facilities without the IAEA getting informed. And I have already explained to you that stockpiling 60%-enriched uranium is nothing to brag about without a clear strategy because it is nothing but an expensive burden that will be either handed over to Russia or diluted down to 3.5% after a deal is signed, rendering it a complete waste of money and energy. And Rouhani is already out, but we haven't seen much from Raeesi since August that shows a different path has been taken by the Iranian leadership. Even the parliament's resolution that was passed last year has not been implemented even by half and it was supposed to get fully implemented by the end of this year. The reconstruction of the IR-40 reactor has not even started yet and even the new administration does not intend to stick to the old design. I have already explained everything that there is to explain to someone like you, if you can't get it, then it's not my problem. This is the end of this discussion.


Please stop writing here. I visit this section every day to look at new super duper missiles but instead i have to read your negative depressive Posts.
By the way you wanted to continue the discussion on another topic. I have never seen such a bossy like person in this forum. Your opinion is far away from reality and unfortunately you become often personal when you lack of arguments. Please leave this section and never come back again.
Please Admins do something.

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## QWECXZ

Arash1991 said:


> Please stop writing here. I visit this section every day to look at new super duper missiles but instead i have to read your negative depressive Posts.
> By the way you wanted to continue the discussion on another topic. I have never seen such a bossy like person in this forum. Your opinion is far away from reality and unfortunately you become often personal when you lack of arguments. Please leave this section and never come back again.
> Please Admins do something.


You do not have the authority to tell me what to write, where to write, or where to post. In short, it's none of your business.
It is quite hypocritical of you actually, because I asked you to mention me in the Iranian Chill Thread and yet, you quoted me here instead while you could simply write your worthless, ad hominem comment there.

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> You are missing the whole point of this "price" theory, I guess. All of that is based on the assumption that your opponent is a rational player. And "price" is a relative concept. What will happen when an irrational player like Trump takes power and he finds billions of dollars of damage and thousands of dead US soldiers a reasonable price to pay for completely neutralizing Iran's threat for a foreseeable future? Or even worse: a psychopath like Pompeo becomes the next POTUS. I have said it and I will repeat it again that Trump is in fact an angel when it comes to psychopath scumbags like Pompeo. And you think it is totally impossible for someone like Pompeo to become the next US president?



For one, Trump was in charge for four full years already. During which he never dared launch military aggression on Iran.

Secondly, Trump isn't really one to trigger a large scale, open ended, extremely costly and lengthy conflict with an uncertain outcome - it would alienate his entire voter base. One of Trump's main campaigning themes was the need for the US to disengage from these sorts of conflicts started by his predecessors. He likes to contrast himself with warmongering neoconservatives.

Thirdly, the US president is not the ultimate decision maker when it comes to issues as strategic and far reaching as these: it is the regime's deep state which makes these decisions. If a president strays off course all too much, they will not hesitate to murder him, and in front of the cameras at that so as to bring the message across, e.g. John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Already, we have seen top Pentagon generals like Mark Milley publicly declare that they would have sabotaged the Trump administration, had it ordered risky military undertakings. A "madman" president, whether Trump or Pompeo (who in fact is an establishment figure much more than Trump), will only act in the strict framework defined by the deep state.



QWECXZ said:


> Iran hasn't expanded much in the last 10 years. Expanded in what sense exactly? Iran's economic growth has been halted since 2009. Our progress in science has been slowed down (partly due to the previous administration). One of our strategic allies in the region is in the middle of a civil war that seems endless and it cannot stand on its own feet yet. Our influence in Iraq surely has decreased, even though it remains very strong but it is nowhere near what it was before the assassination of Gen. Soleimani.



GDP growth only tells part of the story, and even this has meanwhile recovered, as Iran's economy gradually adjusted to the enhanced sanctions environment (such a process takes some time). Iran's progress in defense industries and military power has continued unabated. Development of infrastructures as well.

Thirty years ago, Iran only had two heavyweight strategic allies (Syrian state, Lebanon's Hezbollah party and armed wing). Today, it has four (the previous two plus the Iraqi PMU and Yemen's Ansarallah and allies). We might add the Palestinian Resistance to the list. Of course the enemy will try everything in its power to disrupt the Resistance Axis. But it's the end result which counts, not intermediate stages or kill ratios.

In Syria, the enemy failed in reaching its objectives, which had been announced unmistakably in the form of the oft repeated slogan "Assad must go". Iran is more entrenched in Syria than it used to be ten years ago. Whether or not Syria was subjected to war doesn't nullify the fact and it doesn't negatively affect Iran's position in the Levant. On the contrary: it is Iran which is filling the vacuum left by a relatively weaker Syrian central state in key areas, including on the border with occupied Golan.

In Iraq, the so-called civil society movements critical of Iran had already been kick started for a considerable time when shahid Soleimani was still among us. The current Iraqi prime minister too had been present back then. Shahid Soleimani's martyrdom did not lead to an Iranian retreat from Iraq.



QWECXZ said:


> I am surprised that a person like you is unaware of the US regime change plans.



I mentioned the US regime change policy in this very discussion, see my previous posts. I've often discussed it elsewhere as well.



QWECXZ said:


> The US is not seeking a military option with Iran because as I told you, there's no reason for that.



The Americans haven't resorted to the military option because Iran's deterrence power prevented them from doing so. Were it not for Iran's military prowess, brilliantly thought out defensive doctrine and astute policy making, Washington would have launched military operations against Iran a long time ago. That's where raising the cost of military action comes into play as a key vector of deterrence.



QWECXZ said:


> Iran is not an existential threat to the US and it cannot be anything like that for foreseeable future.



But Iraq was? Afghanistan? Libya? The US kills and destroys for much, much less than the damage Iran has inflicted upon its interests.



QWECXZ said:


> You can chant "Down with the US" all you want but you cannot do anything to the US territory as we all know it (or at least anyone with a functioning brain knows).



Iran doesn't need to. She only needs to survive and keep progressing. That alone would defeat openly declared US strategic goals and imply victory for Islamic Iran.



QWECXZ said:


> The US has chosen a different path. The US is using her media and cultural dominance to turn Iranians against their own country and they are focusing on civil disobedience, riots and ethnic tensions.



The goal matters. And it is nowhere in reach for Washington, even through the listed means. Naturally, the Americans will cause some disturbances in Iran. But these are irrelevant as long as they fail at bringing about a downfall of the Islamic Republic.



QWECXZ said:


> Meanwhile, US sanctions ensure that Iran's growth will be halted and Iran will never dominate the Middle East.



US sanctions have not prevented Iran from developing. They've been, in many respects, a blessing in disguise even, seeing how they forced Iran to invest in the expansion of domestic production and technology, and to steer the economy towards self-sufficiency as much as possible.

Domination in geopolitics is an imperial concept. Iran rather seeks to empower liberation and resistance movements as well as like-minded governments. And has never been as successful in this regard.



QWECXZ said:


> At the very same time, the US is stealing Iran's money under a unilateral sanction regime that is not even UN approved anymore but they have successfully convinced their allies to abide by them. It is not the US that should be dissatisfied with the status quo for sure.



As said: the US regime and the globalist oligarchy have no tolerance for independent states. They vassalize their own allies. A state which not only manages to successfully preserve its sovereignty but what is more, is steadily challenging imperial interests and thus setting a potential example for others to follow, is even more of a thorn in their side.



QWECXZ said:


> General McKenzie, the US CENTCOM's commander that oversaw the US assassination of Gen. Soleimani under the Trump administration continues to be here in our region. If you want to say that the previous administration is out and now it's OK to sit at the negotiating table with the Americans, then sorry, but that's really lame.





QWECXZ said:


> Some of the JCPOA limitations are still in place. What happened to kicking the IAEA inspectors out? I thought we had an ultimatum and we were supposed to reduce IAEA inspections? Even the new administration has not fully executed the parliament's nuclear resolution.lame.



It is what Iran meant when she said there will be no negotiations with the killers of shahid Soleimani. Iran held her promise.

Now, as to whether or not it is a sound idea to negotiate with the EU after Biden replaced Trump, I can only reference user Mohsen's post once again, which I quoted previously. Another great assessment was offered by user sanel1412 here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iranian-chill-thread.283137/post-13553638

This time around, it is Iran which is having the upper hand.



QWECXZ said:


> What did Gen. Soleimani have to do with Iran's nuclear program? I never linked the two, I have no idea why you think his death must have an impact on our nuclear program.



Since shahid Soleimani's martyrdom was brought up as an argument for an alleged lack of deterrence on Iran's part, let's put it this way: the cowardly strike against shahid Soleimani didn't lead to any strategic setback for Iran in either one of the dossiers of concern to the US regime: be it the nuclear program which provides Iran with a potential breakout capability, or Iran's ballistic missiles, Iran's regional presence and so on.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> For one, Trump was already in charge for four full years. He never dared launch a military aggression against Iran.
> 
> Secondly, Trump is not one to trigger a large scale, open ended, extremely costly and years long conflict - it would go alienate his entire voter base. One of Trump's main campaigning themes was the need for the US to disengage from these sorts of conflicts started by his predecessors.
> 
> Thirdly, the US president is not the ultimate decision maker when it comes to issues as strategic and serious as these: the regime's deep state makes these decisions. If a president fails to toe the line, they will not hesitate to murder him, and in front of the cameras at that so as to bring the point across, e.g. John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Already, we have had top Pentagon generals such as Mark Milley publicly declare that they would have sabotaged the Trump administration, had it ordered risky military undertakings. A "madman" president, whether Trump or Pompeo - who is an establishment figure much more than Trump, by the way, will only act in the framework defined by the deep state.
> 
> 
> 
> GDP growth only tells part of the story, and even this has meanwhile recovered, as Iran's economy gradually adjusted to the enhanced sanctions environment (such a process takes some time). Iran's progress in defense industries and military power has continued unabated. Development of infrastructures as well.
> 
> Thirty years ago, Iran only had two heavyweight strategic allies (Syrian state, Lebanon's Hezbollah party and armed wing). Today, it has four (the previous ones plus the Iraqi PMU and Yemen's Ansarallah and allies). We might add the Palestinian Resistance. Of course the enemy will try everything in its power to disrupt the Resistance Axis. But it's the end result which counts, not intermediate stages or kill ratios.
> 
> In Syria, the enemy completely failed in reaching its objectives, which had been clearly announced in the form of the oft repeated slogan "Assad must go". Iran is more entrenched in Syria than it used to be 10 years ago. Whether or not Syria was subjected to war doesn't nullify this fact and it doesn't negatively affect Iran's position in the Levant. On the contrary: it is Iran which is filling the vacuum left by a relatively weaker Syrian central state in key areas, including on the border with occupied Golan.
> 
> In Iraq, the so-called civil society movements critical of Iran had been kick started while shahid Soleimani was here. The current Iraqi PM too had been present back then. Shahid Soleimani's martyrdom did not lead to any form Iranian retreat from Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> I mentioned the US regime change policy in this very discussion. See my previous posts. Moreover, I've often comment it elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US has not resorted to the military option because Iran's deterrence power prevented them from doing so. Were it not for Iran's military prowess, incredibly well thought out defensive doctrine and astute policy making, Washington would have launched military operations against Iran. That's where raising the cost of military action comes into play as a key factor of deterrence.
> 
> 
> 
> But Iraq was? Afghanistan was? Libya as well?
> 
> 
> 
> Iran doesn't need to do anything of the sort. She only needs to survive and keep progressing. That alone would defeat openly declared US strategic goals and imply victory for Islamic Iran.
> 
> 
> 
> The goal matters. Only the goal. And it is nowher in reach for Washington, even through these means. Naturally, they will cause some disturbances. But these are irrelevant as long as they don't bring about a downfall of the Islamic Republic.
> 
> 
> 
> US sanctions have not prevented Iran from developing. They've been, in many respects, a blessing in disguise even, forcing Iran to invest in the expansion of domestic production and technology, and to steer the economy towards self-sufficiency as much as possible.
> 
> Iran doesn't aim to dominate. Domination in geopolitics is an imperial concept. Iran seeks to empower liberation and resistance movements and governments. And has never been as successful in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> As said: the US regime and the globalist oligarchy have no tolerance for independent states. They vassalizes its own allies. A state that not only manages to successfully preserve its sovereignty but what is more, is steadily challenging imperial interests and thus setting a potential example to follow for others, is even more of a thorn in their side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is what Iran meant when she said that there will be no negotiations with the killers of shahid Soleimani. Iran held her promise.
> 
> Now, as to whether or not it is a sound idea to negotiate with the EU after Biden replaced Trump, I can only reference user Mohsen's post once again, which I quoted previously. Another great assessment was offered by user sanel1412 here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iranian-chill-thread.283137/post-13553638
> 
> This time around, it is Iran which has the upper hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Since shahid Soleimani's martyrdom was brought up as an argument for an alleged lack of deterrence on Iran's part, let's put it this way: the cowardly strike against shahid Soleimani didn't cause any strategic setback for Iran in either of the dossiers of concern for the US regime: be it the nuclear program which provides Iran with a potential breakout capability, or Iran's ballistic missiles, Iran's regional presence and so on.


You seem to have a different standard of what is considered a military aggression. Assassinating a country's 2nd most important person by firing from a military helicopter and officially accepting responsibility for it is an act of aggression and it is a casus belli. World War I started over the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in fact. Many wars in history have started over less.

The POTUS has advisors, but at the end, he makes the calls. Many of Trump's advisors did not agree with the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, but hawks around him said that Iran would not respond to it militarily and it will not escalate to a full scale war. That's why Trump authorized the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, completely contradicting your imaginary deterrence that you keep bragging about.

Anyway, mention me in the Iranian Chill Thread if you want to continue the discussion.


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## Daylamite Warrior

QWECXZ said:


> Anyway, mention me in the Iranian Chill Thread if you want to continue the discussion.


Also you: _"You do not have the authority to tell me what to write, where to write, or where to post."_

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> You seem to have a different standard of what is considered a military aggression. Assassinating a country's 2nd most important person by firing from a military helicopter and officially accepting responsibility for it is an act of aggression and it is a casus belli. World War I started over the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in fact. Many wars in history have started over less.



Assassinating an individual will never defeat a system. One needs to look at the actual outcome: the US gained nothing from it, quite the contrary. As American think tank experts will gladly admit.

Also, there are historic cases of nuclear weapons failing to deter against acts of casus belli, Argentina's attack on the UK in the Falklands offering a prime example. America's nuclear weapons did not prevent Iran from supporting Iraqi Resistance groups that eliminated 600+ US occupation troops either. And so on.



QWECXZ said:


> The POTUS has advisors, but at the end, he makes the calls. Many of Trump's advisors did not agree with the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, but hawks around him said that Iran would not respond to it militarily and it will not escalate to a full scale war.



The deep state makes the calls on the most crucial strategic decisions. But Shahid Soleimani's assassination did not fall under that category.



QWECXZ said:


> That's why Trump authorized the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, completely contradicting your imaginary deterrence that you keep bragging about.



Iran's deterrence power would have been imaginary if assassinations of this kind entailed game changing strategic benefits. They don't.

Iran has deterred the US from any and all military measures which actually make a difference.

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## Arash1991

QWECXZ said:


> You do not have the authority to tell me what to write, where to write, or where to post. In short, it's none of your business.
> It is quite hypocritical of you actually, because I asked you to mention me in the Iranian Chill Thread and yet, you quoted me here instead while you could simply write your worthless, ad hominem comment there.


I can tell you whatever I want. Its up to you what you do with it. 
I never agreeed continue the discussion in the chill threat. My suggestion for you goes further. As I said: I recomend you to delete xour account and never write a line again here.

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## QWECXZ

Daylamite Warrior said:


> Also you: _"You do not have the authority to tell me what to write, where to write, or where to post."_


It's the right thing to do. This is off-topic discussion and we have a thread for it.



SalarHaqq said:


> Assassinating an individual will never defeat a system. One needs to look at the actual outcome: the US gained nothing from it, quite the contrary. As American think tank experts will gladly admit.
> 
> Also, there are historic cases of nuclear weapons failing to deter against acts of casus belli, Argentina's attack on the UK in the Falklands offering a prime example. America's nuclear weapons did not prevent Iran from supporting Iraqi Resistance groups that eliminated 600+ US occupation troops either. And so on.
> 
> 
> 
> The deep state makes the calls on the most crucial strategic decisions. But Shahid Soleimani's assassination did not fall under that category.
> 
> 
> 
> Iran's deterrence power would have been imaginary if assassinations of this kind entailed game changing strategic benefits. They don't.
> 
> Iran has deterred the US from any and all military measures which actually make a difference.


The US did gain a lot. First of all, it demoralized Iranians and our allies to the point that even months after that, I remember how everyone felt here on PDF. Secondly, Khamenei lost one of the people he trusted the most. For a person like Khamenei that is living with so many enemies all around him, having his most trusted friend assassinated was a great pain. Khamenei maintained a close personal friendship with Soleimani that can never be replaced. It was painful enough for him to cry in front of TV cameras. Thirdly, Soleimani was a great strategist that is hard to replace as a person. Sure, it's possible to replace his title. It's possible to replace geniuses, but there's no guarantee that they will be just as good. And the US gained all of this at a quite cheap price: a few ballistic missiles on Ain Al-Assad that killed not even a single low-rank US soldier. 0 deaths of US soldiers for 2 respected commanders! The consequences of this came later when multiple attacks on our national security were committed by Israel. So, yeah. The US did gain a lot.

Assassination of one person does not defeat a system, but having nearly every person in the new generation turned against the system does. But again, you are hypocritically avoiding an honest discussion. The point was that the assassination of a high ranking authority is a casus belli and has historically led to war. You somehow attempted to change the point, but it stands there intact.

In both cases, the UK and the US were invading forces in Argentina and Iraq respectively. So, both of your examples are quite irrelevant. Neither Argentina nor Iraq have assassinated high ranking authorities of the invading force and the US and the UK territory were never attacked either.

That's your conspiracy theory which by the way contradicts your initial claim.

Well, Iran's power in Iraq has been on the decline ever after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani and Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis.



Arash1991 said:


> I can tell you whatever I want. Its up to you what you do with it.
> I never agreeed continue the discussion in the chill threat. My suggestion for you goes further. As I said: I recomend you to delete xour account and never write a line again here.


And I pee all over your suggestion/recommendation as you're a nobody.


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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> The US did gain a lot. First of all, it demoralized Iranians and our allies to the point that even months after that, I remember how everyone felt here on PDF.



Lowered morale is only decisive when it is followed by concrete advancements on the ground. But this did not take place.

Also, to characterize the sentiment consecutive to shahid Soleimaini's martyrdom as demoralization would be inaccurate: in fact, it raised the readiness and willingness for revenge and self-sacrifice among Iranians and their allies. It has had a strong mobilizing effect on Resistance forces.



QWECXZ said:


> Secondly, Khamenei lost one of the people he trusted the most. For a person like Khamenei that is living with so many enemies all around him, having his most trusted friend assassinated was a great pain. Khamenei maintained a close personal friendship with Soleimani that can never be replaced. It was painful enough for him to cry in front of TV cameras.



What difference does that make in terms of geostrategic ground realities?



QWECXZ said:


> Thirdly, Soleimani was a great strategist that is hard to replace as a person. Sure, it's possible to replace his title. It's possible to replace geniuses, but there's no guarantee that they will be just as good.



The role previously fulfilled by one person will then be fulfilled by several others as well as by institutions. It only takes a transition period for the system to adjust and redistribute roles and responsibilities. But it does not affect the overall efficiency of the system.



QWECXZ said:


> And the US gained all of this at a quite cheap price: a few ballistic missiles on Ain Al-Assad that killed not even a single low-rank US soldier. 0 deaths of US soldiers for 1 respected strategist. The consequences of this came later when multiple attacks on our national security were committed by Israel. So, yeah. The US did gain a lot.



The zionists got tit for tat retaliation. And US assets were also struck several times. I don't think I need need to rehash the list of operations conducted against both zionists and Americans, they were nicely summarized by user BlueInGreen a few pages back in this thread.

I must ask again: what are those alleged lots of things the US gained in geostrategic in terms? I can't see any.



QWECXZ said:


> In both cases, the UK and the US were invading forces in Argentina and Iraq respectively.



The UK had taken the Falklands some 150 years earlier, and the two countries were not in a state of war when Argentina attacked in 1982.

What has being an invading or defending force to do with anything? The examples show beyond the shadow of a doubt that nuclear weapons do not deter against any and all forms of military-type action.



QWECXZ said:


> Neither Argentina nor Iraq have assassinated high ranking authorities of the invading force and the US and the UK territory were never attacked either.



Argentina did much more than assassinating a high ranking UK authority: it attacked UK territory (yes, the UK annexed the Falklands and is considering it full fledged British territory), struck several British warships, had its ground forces engage in regular firefights with British infantry and so on.

Also, eliminating 600+ enemy troops is more significant and impactful an action than conducting a targeted assassination of a single general.



QWECXZ said:


> That's your conspiracy theory which by the way contradicts your initial claim.



And Kennedy was shot by some mentally unstable nobody... everyone's free to believe it.



QWECXZ said:


> Well, Iran's power in Iraq has been on the decline ever after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani.



Not really. This is simply the perception being peddled by mainstream media. If we were to buy into their narratives, then Iran's power in the region has been on the decline for the past 43 years non-stop.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> Lowered morale is only decisive when it is followed with concrete advancement on the ground. But this did not happen.
> 
> Also, to characterize the sentiment consecutive to shahid Soleimaini's martyrdom as demoralization would be inaccurate: in fact, it raised the readiness and willingness for revenge and self-sacrifice of Iranians and their allies. It has had a strong mobilizing effect on Resistance forces.
> 
> What difference does that make in terms of geostrategic ground realities?
> 
> The role previously fulfilled by a single person will then be fulfilled by several ones as well as by institutions. It only takes a short time for the system to adjust and redistribute roles and responsibilities. But it does not affect the overall efficiency of the system.
> 
> The zionists got tit for tat retaliation. And US assets were also struck several times. I don't think I need need to rehash the list of operations conducted against both zionists and Americans, they were nicely summarized by user BlueInGreen a few pages back in this thread.
> 
> I must ask again: what are those alleged lots of things the US gained in geostrategic in terms? I can't see any.
> 
> The UK had taken the Falklands some 150 years earlier, and the two countries were not in a state of war when Argentina attacked in 1982.
> 
> What has being an invading or defending force to do with anything? The examples show beyond the shadow of a doubt that nuclear weapons do *not* deter against any and all conceivable use of military means.
> 
> Argentina did much more than assassinating a high ranking UK authority: it attacked UK territory (yes, the UK annexed the Falklands and is considering it full fledged British territory), struck several British warships, had its ground forces engage in regular firefights with British infantry and so on.
> 
> Also, eliminating 600+ enemy troops is more significant and impactful an action than conducting a targeted assassination of a single general.
> 
> And Kennedy was shot by some mentally unstable nobody. Sure.
> 
> Not really. This is simply the perception being peddled by mainstream media. If we were to buy their narratives, then Iran's power in the region has been on the decline for the past 43 years non-stop.


So, you are now claiming that lowered morale does not matter? LOL This just keeps getting better.

You're right. A series of unfortunate incidents in Iran that damaged Iran's strategic assets like the ICAC and led to the assassination of a top nuclear scientist like Fakhrizadeh do not matter. Why should they?

I have already explained to you the geostrategic realities. You can read them again until you understand them. I have written them in full detail and you have never been able to refute them or come up with a counter-argument so far.

No, the Falklands were occupied by the Spanish prior to 1833. Argentina claimed its independence from Spain in 1816. The reason that Argentina claims that the Falklands belong to them is based on _Uti possidetis juris_. The very same concept that Iran uses to justify our administration and military occupation of the three islands in the Persian Gulf. By your logic, we hold no claim over most of our islands in the south. The Argentinians had every right to act and take back those islands and the British were the invaders. Again, by your logic, Iran under the rule of Shah attacked British territory and we even defeated the British! How ridiculous. You can do better than this.

What 600+ troops exactly? 600+ US troops have died in Iraq since the assassination of Gen. Soleimani? I call bullshit on that unless you can prove it. So, prove it.


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## Abid123

QWECXZ said:


> What 600+ troops exactly? 600+ US troops have died in Iraq since the assassination of Gen. Soleimani? I call bullshit on that unless you can prove it. So, prove it.


He is talking about this:








Report: Iran Killed 600 U.S. Soldiers in the Iraq War


Here's how we know Iran is responsible.




nationalinterest.org


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## QWECXZ

Abid123 said:


> He is talking about this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: Iran Killed 600 U.S. Soldiers in the Iraq War
> 
> 
> Here's how we know Iran is responsible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalinterest.org


Yes, but that's from 2003 to 2011. What has happened after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani and Al-Muhandis? That's what matters. Meanwhile, these are part of war casualties after invading Iraq. It's quite different from the US barracks bombings, for example. Can Iran do the same to US personnel in Qatar, for example?


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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> So, you are now claiming that lowered morale does not matter? LOL This just keeps getting better.



I am claiming that:

1) There was no such thing as lowered morale.
2) Even if it was the case, lowered morale counts when you're in the middle of a hot war. Not when it doesn't have any consequence on the ground.



QWECXZ said:


> You're right. A series of unfortunate incidents in Iran that damaged Iran's strategic assets like the ICAC and led to the assassination of a top nuclear scientist like Fakhrizadeh do not matter.



None of these required shahid Soleimani to be martyred in order to be carried out.



QWECXZ said:


> I have already explained to you the geostrategic realities. You can read them again until you understand them. I have written them in full detail and you have never been able to refute them or come up with a counter-argument so far.



Sorry, but no. You did not mention any concrete geostrategic setback experienced by Iran as a result of shahid Soleimani's martyrdom. Because there haven't been any. Except in the parallel universe painted by BBC Persian, Manoto, Saudi International and company.



QWECXZ said:


> No, the Falklands were occupied by the Spanish prior to 1833. Argentina claimed its independence from Spain in 1816. The reason that Argentina claims that the Falklands belong to them is based on _Uti possidetis juris_. The very same concept that Iran uses to justify our administration and military occupation of the three islands in the Persian Gulf. By your logic, we hold no claim over most of our islands in the south. The Argentinians had every right to act and take back those islands and the British were the invaders. Again, by your logic, Iran under the rule of Shah attacked British territory and we defeated the British. How ridiculous. You can do better than this.



You tend to portray nuclear weapons as the ultimate, absolute and fool-proof deterrent against even the lowest grade use of military means. The Falklands war definitely proves this assertion wrong.

Whether Argentina had every right to try and reconquer the isles or not, has strictly nothing to do with the question at hand about nuclear deterrence. Basically, what your argument has now muted into, is that nuclear weapons lose their deterrence power if the state armed with them is not on the right side of international law... Which is quite absurd.



QWECXZ said:


> What 600+ troops exactly? 600+ US troops have died in Iraq since the assassination of Gen. Soleimani? I call bullshit on that unless you can prove it. So, prove it.



More than 600 US occupation troops were eliminated by Iranian-backed Iraqi Resistance forces after 2003. American nuclear weapons blatantly failed to prevent it. And, this is far more significant in terms of real impact on the ground, than the assassination of one single general which you believe an Iranian nuclear arsenal would have deterred against.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> I am claiming that:
> 
> 1) There was no such thing as lowered morale.
> 2) Lowered morale counts when you're in war. Not when it has zero consequence on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> They were not made possible by shahid Soleimani's martyrdom. Let's not mix up different topics.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but no. You failed to mention a single geostrategic setback experienced by Iran as a result of shahid Soleimani's martyrdom. Because there haven't been any. Except in the propagandistic parallel world painted by BBC Persian, Manoto, Saudi International and company.
> 
> 
> 
> You portrayed nuclear weapons as the ultimate, absolute deterrent even against lower grade use of military force. The Falklands war proves this assertion completely wrong.
> 
> Whether Argentina had every right to try and reconquer the isles or not, has strictly nothing to do with this discussion. Basically, what your argument has now muted into, is that nuclear weapons lose their deterrence power if the state armed with them violates international law... That's just absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> More than 600 US occupation troops were eliminated by Iranian-backed Iraqi Resistance forces after 2003. American nuclear weapons blatantly failed to prevent this. And, this is much more significant in terms in real impact on the ground, than the assassination of one single general which you believe an Iranian nuclear arsenal would have deterred against.


The only person that is mixing the topics is you honestly. We were talking about nuclear deterrence at first.

There was a lowered morale. Its evidence continues to exist on PDF and all it takes is that someone goes to just 2 years ago and sees our posts back then. If you want to continue to live in denial, that's your problem.

Well, let's see: Iran is losing tens of billions of dollars in oil and gas revenue every year. The US is blocking Iranian money internationally. Iraq, which happens to be under our influence, owes us several billion dollars and at the same time is reducing her energy dependence on us. China which is supposed to be our partner owes us billions of dollars and does not intend to pay back. South Korea owes us billions of dollars but refuses to pay and the IRGC's tactic of seizing their tanker didn't work. Saudi Arabia is making fortunes selling oil at $95 per barrel while we are left alone with China's mercy for buying our oil in token amounts at a discounted price and with overdue payments. I can add to the list in Persian. It's a very humiliating one actually.

I portrayed nuclear weapons exactly as what they are: the best deterrence that exists today. If you do not believe in this theory, or if dumb Iranian leadership does not believe in this theory, then they should all be hanged for treason and for wasting over hundred billion dollars of people's money over some useless program that is an embarrassment in every aspect. The only reason that justifies keeping this nuclear program alive is that it can be used for nuclear weapons. Otherwise, Iran's nuclear program is a complete and utter joke from a civilian aspect.

No, it doesn't because the Falklands war was not an attack on the British sovereignty. For the same reason that the British did not respond to Iran's attack on their claimed territories in the Persian Gulf, the British did not take their dispute with Argentina as an aggression on their territory because well, everyone knows that they are in the wrong. Nuclear weapons are not for expansionism. You don't get the difference between deterrence and expansionism. Just like you don't get the difference between deterrence and maintaining a bad status quo.

Only 600 US troops? And all of them before 2011? So, in other words, you are confirming that after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, the Islamic Republic has not had the balls to hurt even 10 low rank American soldiers? I mean Salami himself said that he had mercy on the American soldiers because they should not be punished for the actions of their superiors (the most ridiculous thing to say) and that came after bragging over and over again about 200 deaths at Ain Al-Assad. LOL

And honestly, your comments are reaching a new low. You expect nuclear weapons to be used against militia attacks on an invading force? You're being ridiculous. It just shows that you don't know what nuclear weapons are used for and why global powers continue to produce them and maintain them in large numbers.


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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> You are missing the whole point of this "price" theory, I guess. All of that is based on the assumption that your opponent is a rational player. And "price" is a relative concept. What will happen when an irrational player like Trump takes power and he finds billions of dollars of damage and thousands of dead US soldiers a reasonable price to pay for completely neutralizing Iran's threat for a foreseeable future? Or even worse: a psychopath like Pompeo becomes the next POTUS. I have said it and I will repeat it again that Trump is in fact an angel when it comes to psychopath scumbags like Pompeo. And you think it is totally impossible for someone like Pompeo to become the next US president?
> 
> Iran hasn't expanded much in the last 10 years. Expanded in what sense exactly? Iran's economic growth has been halted since 2009. Our progress in science has been slowed down (partly due to the previous administration). One of our strategic allies in the region is in the middle of a civil war that seems endless and it cannot stand on its own feet yet. Our influence in Iraq surely has decreased, even though it remains very strong but it is nowhere near what it was before the assassination of Gen. Soleimani.
> 
> I am surprised that a person like you is unaware of the US regime change plans. The US is not seeking a military option with Iran because as I told you, there's no reason for that. Iran is a country of 85 million people that can defend itself to the point of inflicting hundred billions of dollars of damage to US assets and interests and a ground invasion of Iran is out of question. Iran is not an existential threat to the US and it cannot be anything like that for foreseeable future. You can chant "Down with the US" all you want but you cannot do anything to the US territory as we all know it (or at least anyone with a functioning brain knows). The US has chosen a different path. The US is using her media and cultural dominance to turn Iranians against their own country and they are focusing on civil disobedience, riots and ethnic tensions. Meanwhile, US sanctions ensure that Iran's growth will be halted and Iran will never dominate the Middle East. At the very same time, the US is stealing Iran's money under a unilateral sanction regime that is not even UN approved anymore but they have successfully convinced their allies to abide by them. It is not the US that should be dissatisfied with the status quo for sure.
> 
> General McKenzie, the US CENTCOM's commander that oversaw the US assassination of Gen. Soleimani under the Trump administration continues to be here in our region. If you want to say that the previous administration is out and now it's OK to sit at the negotiating table with the Americans, then sorry, but that's really lame.
> 
> Some of the JCPOA limitations are still in place. What happened to kicking the IAEA inspectors out? I thought we had an ultimatum and we were supposed to reduce IAEA inspections? Even the new administration has not fully executed the parliament's nuclear resolution.
> 
> What did Gen. Soleimani have to do with Iran's nuclear program? I never linked the two, I have no idea why you think his death must have an impact on our nuclear program.
> 
> @Arash1991 @Mata Elang @SalarHaqq We're off topic here. If you want to continue this discussion, mention me in the Iranian Chill Threa





QWECXZ said:


> The only person that is mixing the topics is you honestly. We were talking about nuclear deterrence at first.
> 
> There was a lowered morale. Its evidence continues to exist on PDF and all it takes is that someone goes to just 2 years ago and sees our posts back then. If you want to continue to live in denial, that's your problem.
> 
> Well, let's see: Iran is losing tens of billions of dollars in oil and gas revenue every year. The US is blocking Iranian money internationally. Iraq, which happens to be under our influence, owes us several billion dollars and at the same time is reducing her energy dependence on us. China which is supposed to be our partner owes us billions of dollars and does not intend to pay back. South Korea owes us billions of dollars but refuses to pay and the IRGC's tactic of seizing their tanker didn't work. Saudi Arabia is making fortunes selling oil at $95 per barrel while we are left alone with China's mercy for buying our oil in token amounts at a discounted price and with overdue payments. I can add to the list in Persian. It's a very humiliating one actually.
> 
> I portrayed nuclear weapons exactly as what they are: the best deterrence that exists today. If you do not believe in this theory, or if dumb Iranian leadership does not believe in this theory, then they should all be hanged for treason and wasting over 100 billion dollars of people's money over some useless program that is an embarrassment in every aspect. The only reason that justifies keeping this nuclear program alive is that it can be used for nuclear weapons. Otherwise, Iran's nuclear program is a complete and utter joke from a civilian aspect.
> 
> No, it doesn't because the Falklands war was not an attack on the British sovereignty. For the same reason that the British did not respond to Iran's attack on their claimed territories in the Persian Gulf, the British did not take their dispute with Argentina as an aggression on their territory because well, everyone knows that they are in the wrong. Nuclear weapons are not for expansionism. You don't get the difference between deterrence and expansionism. Just like you don't get the difference between deterrence and maintaining a bad status quo.
> 
> Only 600 US troops? And all of them before 2011? So, in other words, you are confirming that after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, the Islamic Republic has not had the balls to hurt even 10 low rank American soldiers?
> And honestly, your comments are reaching a new low. You expect nuclear weapons to be used against militia attacks on an invading force? You're being ridiculous. It just shows that you don't know what nuclear weapons are used for and why global powers continue to produce them and maintain them in large numbers.



I'd say that, if you're willing to believe the IRGC shot down 1 of only 4 current E11-A BACN aircraft over Afghanistan: An event which itself took place shortly after Shahid Soleimani's death. Then one can say that Iran got 'blood' revenge for Hajj-Qassem, albeit covertly. And the *overt* conventional military strike against Ayn Al-Assad was the operation meant to re-established relative deterrence and save-face as it were.

Valli, dovereh, rust-migi. Aslan hichkasi nist ke Iran bokosheh that would amount to Hajj-Qassem.











To me it looks like an AD missile exploded around the top of the airacraft, hurling it down to the ground where it burned out. The first images of this down USAF plane were circulated through FARS news (probable indication that this was an IRGC covert operation).

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## QWECXZ

Blue In Green said:


> I'd say that, if you're willing to believe the IRGC shot down the E11-A BACN aircraft over Afghanistan: An event which itself took place shortly after Shahid Soleimani's death. Then one can say that Iran got 'blood' revenge for Hajj-Qassem, albeit covertly. And the *overt* conventional military strike against Ayn Al-Assad was the operation meant to re-established relative deterrence and save-face as it were.
> 
> Valli, dovereh, rust-migi. Aslan hichkasi nist ke Iran bokosheh that would amount to Hajj-Qassem.


But we don't know if Iran was involved in that, and again, if Iran has reached full deterrence against the US, why not just claim responsibility for the attack? Honestly, I don't buy any of that story, particularly about killing Ayatollah Mike.

Didn't the United States claim responsibility for killing two of the most important commanders of the Middle East? If Iran has reached deterrence against the US as Salar and others claim, then Iran could at least go for Gen. McKenzie, the CENTCOM's commander in chief, and then claim full responsibility for it. Why not?

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> But we don't know if Iran was involved in that, and again, if Iran has reached full deterrence against the US, why not just claim responsibility for the attack? Honestly, I don't buy any of that story, particularly about killing Ayatollah Mike.
> 
> Didn't the United States claim responsibility for killing two of the most important commanders of the Middle East? If Iran has reached deterrence against the US as Salar and others claim, then Iran could at least go for Gen. McKenzie, the CENTCOM's commander in chief.



From my position, having followed Trump's radical foreign policy decision making. I think *both *Iran and the United States (even under Trump) didn't want to openly escalate the situation any further. Many of his advisors and other think-tanks did warn him of the possible fallout of escalating into a open shooting war with the I.R.I. so most probably each side walked away with there chunk of flesh from each other and called it a day. 

After all, the United States cannot lose Eastern Europe and the East Asia Pacific region all in a bid to confront Iran since men, weapons and supplies are already spread thin.

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## QWECXZ

Blue In Green said:


> From my position, having followed Trump's radical foreign policy decision making. I think *both *Iran and the United States (even under Trump) didn't want to openly escalate the situation any further.


Yes, but I can understand why the US didn't want to escalate the situation further. I mean they had just killed two of the most important commanders affiliated with Iran in the region. Obviously, they were pretty happy with the outcome and didn't want to escalate further. But the situation for Iran was quite the opposite. If we had reached deterrence against the US, we should've flattened the US bases in Iraq, Qatar and the Emirates. And directly attempted to kill Gen. McKenzie and right after Trump's presidency ended, we should've openly gone for assassinating him and Pompeo. Not in propaganda animations, but in reality.

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## Blue In Green

QWECXZ said:


> QWECXZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I can understand why the US didn't want to escalate the situation further. I mean they had just killed two of the most important commanders affiliated with Iran. Obviously, they were pretty happy with the outcome and didn't want to escalate further. But the situation for Iran was quite the opposite. If we had reached deterrence against the US, we should've flattened the US bases in Iraq, Qatar and the Emirates. And directly attempted to kill Gen. McKenzie and right after Trump's presidency ended, we should've openly gone for assassinating him and Pompeo. Not in propaganda animations, but in reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But we don't know if Iran was involved in that, and again, if Iran has reached full deterrence against the US, why not just claim responsibility for the attack? Honestly, I don't buy any of that story, particularly about killing Ayatollah Mike.
> 
> Didn't the United States claim responsibility for killing two of the most important commanders of the Middle East? If Iran has reached deterrence against the US as Salar and others claim, then Iran could at least go for Gen. McKenzie, the CENTCOM's commander in chief, and then claim full responsibility for it. Why not?
Click to expand...


Iran, Russia, Israel, China, North Korea, U.S., U.K. and many others all operate very actively within the sphere of covert operations. So I truly do think that the downing of the E11-A was just another part of this "shadow-war" each side partakes in, It is what it is.

Moreover brother, my position has always been that the IRGC AEROSPACE MISSLE FORCE'S response should have been significantly more comprehensive. There were many more targets to be obliterated at Ayn Al-Assad but the IRGC decided to go after only so many. What the Americans had to say on the matter is of little to no consequence. We know from first-hand reports of Danish soldiers that were stationed at Ayn Al-Assad during the attack that "when they came out of their bunkers, helicopters were cut in half and there was widespread destruction".

I think the level of damage done was considerably more than what the Americans showed and the cover-up/clean up job was done as fast as possible so the story that came out downplayed Iran's operation in order to save-face. Apart of me also thinks that Iran knew that it could only take so much away from the Americans as, again, neither side didn't wants to engage in a costly war so the IRGC took the downing of the E11-A as enough of a blood-revenge to satiate the need for immediate reprisal. Ayn Al-Assad was as more of a show of strength than a "revenge operation". 

It should be noted that, even though Iran has grown its military strength significantly over the recent years. There is no wish to get into a conflict that will see many of those gains destroyed or rolled back. Iran isn't suicidal in this regard.

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> There was a lowered morale. Its evidence continues to exist on PDF and all it takes is someone goes to just 2 years ago and sees our posts back then. If you want to continue to live in denial, that's your problem.



PDF as a yardstick for Iranian and allied military forces... I don't think so. Evidence is all over the place that shahid Soleimani's martyrdom led to heightened readiness for mobilization.



QWECXZ said:


> Well, let's see: Iran is losing tens of billions of dollars in oil and gas revenue every year. The US is blocking Iranian money internationally. Iraq, which happens to be under our control, owes us several billion dollars and at the same time is reducing her energy dependence on us. China which is supposed to be our partner owes us billions of dollars. South Korea owes us billions of dollars but refuses to pay and the IRGC tactic of seizing their tanker didn't work. Saudi Arabia is making fortunes selling oil at $95 per barrel while we are left alone with China's mercy for discounted price and overdue payments. I can add to the list in Persian.



All of these applied prior to shahid Soleimani's martyrdom as well. On a sidenote, it's excellent to reduce dependence on oil incomes. Iran's reliance on oil exports is incomparably smaller than Saudi Arabia's. That's a sign of progress, not a setback.



QWECXZ said:


> I portrayed nuclear weapons exactly as what they are: the best deterrence that exists today. If you do not believe in this theory, or if dumb Iranian leadership does not believe in this theory, then they should all be hanged for wasting over 100 billion dollars over some useless program that is an embarrassment in every aspect. The only reason that justifies keeping this nuclear program alive is that it can be used for nuclear weapons. Otherwise, Iran's nuclear program is a complete and utter joke from a civilian aspect.



Nuclear weapons are one among several effective instruments of deterrence. Hence why Iran is maintaining the option to acquire them. But by no means are they the only effective deterrent, and by no means are they fool proof against any and all conceivable uses of force.



QWECXZ said:


> No, it doesn't because the Falklands war was not an attack on the British sovereignty. For the same reason that the British did not respond to Iran's attack on their claimed territories in the Persian Gulf, the British did not take their dispute with Argentina as an aggression on their territory because well, everyone knows that they are there illegally.



The reason why the British did not react to Iranian take over of Abu Musa and the Tumbs, is because they had officially abandoned their claims over these islands! As opposed to the Falklands, claims to sovereignty over which the UK never forewent. Hence why the UK struck back and war ensued.

Also, the two sets of islands have had different legal statuses. While London considers the Falklands as full fledged part of British soil, the present territory of the UAE and the three Persian Gulf islands were never attributed that status, they were British protectorates. To the UK, Argentina's move was an attack on British territorial integrity.



QWECXZ said:


> Nuclear weapons are not for expansionism. You don't get the difference between deterrence and expansionism. Just like you don't get the difference between deterrence and maintaining a bad status quo.



Expansionism? The British had exerted de facto if not de jure sovereignty over the Falklands for nearly 150 years when Buenos Aires declared war on them. The expansion had been done long before. Again, you're somehow trying to dodge this significant case by suggesting that if a nuclear weapons armed state contravenes international law, out of shame and humbleness it will voluntarily renounce the deterrence power stemming from said weapons. Sorry, but that's an outlandish assumption.



QWECXZ said:


> Only 600 US troops? And all of them before 2011? So, in other words, you are confirming that after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, the Islamic Republic has not had the balls to hurt even 10 low rank American soldiers?



I am confirming that American nuclear weapons couldn't do a damn thing in preventing them from losing over 600 troops at the hands of Iranian-backed Resistance groups in Iraq. Which is more significant in terms of concrete impact on the ground than the removal of a single general.

Look at the dates again: before 2011, and 2019 for shahid Soleimani's martyrdom... there's eight years in between. So no, the assassination of martyr Soleimani is not the reason for lower numbers of US casualties in Iraq.


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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> PDF as a yardstick for Iranian and allied military forces... I don't think so. Evidence is all over the place that shahid Soleimani's martyrdom led to heightened readiness for mobilization.
> 
> 
> 
> All of these applied prior to shahid Soleimani's martyrdom as well. On a sidenote, it's excellent to reduce dependence on oil incomes. Iran's reliance on oil exports is incomparably smaller than Saudi Arabia's. That's a sign of progress, not a setback.
> 
> 
> 
> Nuclear weapons are one among several effective instruments of deterrence. Hence why Iran is maintaining the option to acquire them. But by no means are they the only effective deterrent, and by no means are they fool proof against any and all conceivable uses of force.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason why the British did not react to Iranian take over of Abu Musa and the Tumbs, is because they had officially abandoned their claims over these islands! As opposed to the Falklands, claims to sovereignty over which the UK never forewent. Hence why the UK struck back and war ensued.
> 
> Also, the two sets of islands have had different legal statuses. While London considers the Falklands as full fledged part of British soil, the present territory of the UAE and the three Persian Gulf islands were never attributed that status, they were British protectorates.
> 
> 
> 
> Expansionism? The British had exerted de facto if not de jure sovereignty over the Falklands for nearly 150 years when Buenos Aires declared war on them. Again, you're somehow trying to dodge this significant case by suggesting that if a nuclear weapons armed state contravenes international law, out of shame and humbleness it will voluntarily renounce the deterrence power stemming from said weapons. Sorry, but that's just baseless.
> 
> 
> 
> I am confirming that US nuclear weapons couldn't do a damn in preventing them from losing over 600 troops at the hands of Iranian-backed Resistance groups in Iraq.
> 
> Look at the dates again: before 2011, and 2019 for shahid Soleimani's martyrdom... there's eight years in between. So no, the assassination of martyr Soleimani is not the reason for lower numbers of US casualties in Iraq.


PDF is an example of a website where you can find Iranian posters interested in military affairs.

Nobody said that this situation didn't exist before Soleimani's assassination. Your straw man fallacy does not change the subject and the valid point that was raised about the side effects of the status quo for Iran. And the fact that you didn't refute them shows that you do not deny them.

It is excellent to reduce our dependence on oil income, but that should be done by heavily increasing the size of our non-oil exports while selling oil, not by getting deprived of our right to sell oil by the US bullying.

Maintaining the option to acquire them? How and at what cost? By losing tens of billions of dollars over a year? This is exactly the reason that I am saying that the Iranian leadership does not have a clear strategy regarding the nuclear program. You do not "maintain the option to acquire nukes" for a cost this high! When you are cornered and you are already paying the price, then just go for it and build them if you have the balls.

So, you are saying that the US should use nukes against militias in Iraq? Is that what you are saying? LOL. Using nuclear weapons for attacks committed by militias that you are occupying their country? Seriously?

How many US soldiers have been killed in Iraq after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani?


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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> PDF is an example of a website where you can find Iranian posters interested in military affairs.



With a handful of exceptions, PDF users aren't in line with the ideological orientation of the revolutionary core of the IRI, of IRGC personnel etc.



QWECXZ said:


> Nobody said that this situation didn't exist before Soleimani's assassination. Your straw man fallacy does not change the subject and the valid point that was raised about the side effects of the status quo for Iran. And the fact that you didn't refute them shows that you do not deny them.



Me: "Sorry but no. You failed to mention a single *geostrategic setback experienced by Iran as a result of shahid Soleimani's martyrdom*. Because there haven't been any."

You: "Well, let's see: Iran is losing tens of billions of dollars in oil and gas revenue every year. The US is blocking Iranian money internationally. Iraq, which happens to be under our control, owes us several billion dollars and at the same time is reducing her energy dependence on us. China which is supposed to be our partner owes us billions of dollars. South Korea owes us billions of dollars but refuses to pay and the IRGC tactic of seizing their tanker didn't work. Saudi Arabia is making fortunes selling oil at $95 per barrel while we are left alone with China's mercy for discounted price and overdue payments. I can add to the list in Persian."

Me: "All of these applied prior to shahid Soleimani's martyrdom as well."

You: "Strawman fallacy."

Thence, at this particular juncture we weren't discussing the general side effects of Iran's anti-imperialist foreign policy since 1979, but alleged game changing consequences of Hajj Qasem's martyrdom at the geostrategic level.

As for the cited economic data, they're painting an incomplete and therefore biased picture of Iran's standing.



QWECXZ said:


> It is excellent to reduce our dependence on oil income, but that should be done by heavily increasing the size of our non-oil exports while selling oil, not by getting deprived of our right to sell oil by the US bullying.



Any path towards reduction of oil dependence is good. Whether export-based or primarily founded upon reliance on the domestic market. But Iran's non-oil exports have recorded a steady increase as well.



QWECXZ said:


> Maintaining the option to acquire them? How and at what cost? By losing tens of billions of dollars over a year? This is exactly the reason that I am saying that the Iranian leadership does not have a clear strategy regarding the nuclear program. You do not "maintain the option to acquire nukes" for a cost this high! When you are cornered and you are already paying the price, then just go for it and build them if you have the balls.



To Iran's enemies the nuclear file is essentially a pretext for sanctions. If not for Iran's civilian nuclear program, they'd have invoked something else. Or even made up fictive claims as with Iraq back in the day.



QWECXZ said:


> So, you are saying that the US should use nukes against militias in Iraq? Is that what you are saying? LOL. Using nuclear weapons for attacks committed by militias that you are occupying their country? Seriously?



US nukes weren't enough to deter Iran from conducting this policy. Likewise, Iranian nukes would not have been guaranteed to prevent any of the events invoked here as alleged signs of lacking Iranian deterrence.



QWECXZ said:


> How many US soldiers have been killed in Iraq after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani?



How many had been killed during the eight years prior to his martyrdom? His martyrdom isn't the cause for decreased Resistance activity in Iraq, US withdrawal of the bulk of its forces minus a small auxiliary contingent is.


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## Daylamite Warrior

QWECXZ said:


> It's the right thing to do. This is off-topic discussion and we have a thread for it.


 
Also you:


QWECXZ said:


> And I pee all over your suggestion/recommendation as you're a nobody.



Please don't lecture me about the "right" thing to do. You're a traitor which is what really equates to nothing.


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## QWECXZ

Daylamite Warrior said:


> Also you:
> 
> 
> Please don't lecture me about the "right" thing to do. You're a traitor which is what really equates to nothing.


Your father is a traitor, bastard.


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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> With a handful of exceptions, PDF users aren't in line with the ideological orientation of the revolutionary core of the IRI, of IRGC personnel etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Me: "Sorry but no. You failed to mention a single *geostrategic setback experienced by Iran as a result of shahid Soleimani's martyrdom*. Because there haven't been any."
> 
> You: "Well, let's see: Iran is losing tens of billions of dollars in oil and gas revenue every year. The US is blocking Iranian money internationally. Iraq, which happens to be under our control, owes us several billion dollars and at the same time is reducing her energy dependence on us. China which is supposed to be our partner owes us billions of dollars. South Korea owes us billions of dollars but refuses to pay and the IRGC tactic of seizing their tanker didn't work. Saudi Arabia is making fortunes selling oil at $95 per barrel while we are left alone with China's mercy for discounted price and overdue payments. I can add to the list in Persian."
> 
> Me: "All of these applied prior to shahid Soleimani's martyrdom as well."
> 
> You: "Strawman fallacy."
> 
> Thence, at this particular juncture we weren't discussing the general side effects of Iran's anti-imperialist foreign policy since 1979, but alleged game changing consequences of Hajj Qasem's martyrdom at the geostrategic level.
> 
> As for the cited economic data, they're painting an incomplete and therefore biased picture of Iran's standing.
> 
> 
> 
> Any path towards reduction of oil dependence is good. Whether export-based or primarily founded upon reliance on the domestic market. But Iran's non-oil exports have recorded a steady increase as well.
> 
> 
> 
> To Iran's enemies the nuclear file is essentially a pretext for sanctions. If not for Iran's civilian nuclear program, they'd have invoked something else. Or even made up fictive claims as with Iraq back in the day.
> 
> 
> 
> US nukes weren't enough to deter Iran from conducting this policy. Likewise, Iranian nukes would not have been guaranteed to prevent any of the events invoked here as alleged signs of lacking Iranian deterrence.
> 
> 
> 
> How many had been killed during the eight years prior to his martyrdom? His martyrdom isn't the cause for decreased Resistance activity in Iraq, US withdrawal of the bulk of its forces minus a small auxiliary contingent is.


You didn't really answer anything that is worth discussing.

First of all, it seems established from your answer that no American soldier has died after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, not even in the following rocket attacks by the Iranian-backed militias in Iraq. That's pathetic and quite embarrassing, particularly because the US is overstaying their welcome in Iraq after the Iraqi parliament asked them to leave.

In case you feel that killing over 600+ US soldiers from 2003 to 2011 is a huge achievement, I have to remind you that the US is responsible for the deaths of over 300,000 Iranian soldiers and civilians during the Iraq war, including tens of thousands of deaths due to the widespread use of chemical weapons, fully backed by the US, even publicly through their vetoes of UNSC resolutions about Iraqi use of chemical weapons. So, killing 600+ US soldiers and thinking that it's an achievement compared to what the US has done to Iran is quite ridiculous. Even in that regard, it's still 300K+ vs 600+ for the US. And I am using official statistics only, some unofficial stats claim that over 500,000 Iranians were killed in the 8 years of the Iraq-Iran war and the US is a main culprit there.

Your straw man fallacy is quite apparent. I said that Iran needs megatonne nukes for deterrence and you said that Iran was doing fine without them and we don't need them and went on about how Iran is this and that. Then I told you that the situation is nowhere as good as you pretend it is because they have killed several top Iranian commanders with complete immunity from our retaliation and our economy is bleeding from their unilateral sanctions. You somehow attempted in futile to turn this about the aftermath of the assassination of Gen. Soleimani. All of my points nevertheless remain valid. The US feels immune against Iran's retaliation while they are bleeding Iran at any opportunity they find.


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## QWECXZ

Daylamite Warrior said:


> My father and entire family protected Iran from the same western dogs you're brown nosing, tokhm e sag. Babat dayooseh.


Considering your flags that belongs to the country that is Iran's eternal enemy, and your mother is probably currently wh0ring for her English masters now, it is quite clear who is brown nosing westerners.

Madar jendehi ke parchame Angalestan ro gozashti o ehtemalan pedaret kooni boode too qom va ba'd landan, oon zamani ke to haroom zadeh inja naboodi 2 ta dayi man to jang shahid shodan zena zadeh tokhme haroom.


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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> First of all, it seems established from your answer that no American soldier has died after the assassination of Gen. Soleimani, not even in the following rocket attacks by the Iranian-backed militias in Iraq. That's pathetic and quite embarrassing, particularly because the US is overstaying their welcome in Iraq after the Iraqi parliament asked them to leave.



The question was how Iran's geostrategic standing vis a vis the US is supposed to have degraded after Hajj Qasem's martyrdom. Not to debate how worthy the Iranian response has been.

Fact is and remains that this episode did not affect Iran's position on the ground. It's only effect was in the psy-ops realm, which was not translated into any concrete material gains for the US regime (the Supreme Leader shedding tears or PDF users being upset is not a concrete material gain at the geostrategic level).



QWECXZ said:


> In case you feel that killing over 600+ US soldiers from 2003 to 2011 is a huge achievement, I have to remind you that the US is responsible for the deaths of over 300,000 Iranian soldiers and civilians during the Iraq war, including tens of thousands of deaths due to the widespread use of chemical weapons, fully backed by the US, even publicly through their vetoes of UNSC resolutions about Iraqi use of chemical weapons. So, killing 600+ US soldiers and thinking that it's an achievement compared to what the US has done to Iran is quite ridiculous. Even in that regard, it's still 300K+ vs 600+ for the US. And I am using official statistics only, some unofficial stats claim that over 500,000 Iranians were killed in the 8 years of the Iraq-Iran war and the US is a main culprit there.



I've consistently underscored that kill ratio comparisons are irrelevant in war. Conflicts are never fought to kill more than the opponent, but to reach predefined political goals (e.g. Soviet versus German casualties in WW2, Vietnamese versus American casualties during the Vietnam war etc).

So my point wasn't to speculate as to how much of an achievement it was compared to what the US obtained - achievement which is never measured in terms of casualty figures anyway, but in terms of concrete geopolitical indicators and realities _weighed against previously set political objectives_. Iran's support for Iraqi Resistance groups curtailed the US-zionist neocon program for a "New Middle East" more than American backing of Saddam achieved to fulfill its goals i.e. to topple the Islamic Republic and to bring the Revolution to a definitive halt.

The point was to show that US nuclear weapons could not deter Iran from waging this form of indirect warfare on the US military, whose impact on the ground surpassed the geostrategic effects of Hajj Qasem's assassination by far.



QWECXZ said:


> Your straw man fallacy is quite apparent.



I provided a detailed break down of the relevant discussion segment. There isn't any straw man fallacy.



QWECXZ said:


> I said that Iran needs megatonne nukes for deterrence and you said that Iran was doing fine without them and we don't need them and went on about how Iran is this and that. Then I told you that the situation is nowhere as good as you pretend it is because they have killed several top Iranian commanders with complete immunity from our retaliation and our economy is bleeding from their unilateral sanctions.



Now you are referring to the entire discussion from the very start, rather than to the specific part under consideration.

But to address the above nonetheless,

1) Despite Iranian megaton nukes, they likely would have carried out these assassinations all the same. Nuclear weapons do not deter against any and all use of force. They have even failed at systematically averting full fledged conventional conflict as in the Falklands in 1982, and this ranks higher in the level, intensity and scope of violence than the mere assassination of a general.
2) If armed with megaton nukes, Iran would have been sanctioned all the same. Even in the absence of a civilian nuclear program, they would have sanctioned Islamic Iran.

At any rate, this isn't what matters most. Relevant is chiefly the outcome in concrete geopolitical terms, viewed through the prism of the stated and/or implicit political objectives meant to be served by means of the military instrument. In this regard, the US regime has quite utterly failed at causing any strategic setback for Iran with its sanctions and isolated terrorist operations.



QWECXZ said:


> You somehow attempted in futile to turn this about the aftermath of the assassination of Gen. Soleimani. All of my points nevertheless remain valid. The US feels immune against Iran's retaliation while they are bleeding Iran at any opportunity they find.



It isn't relevant. Not only did Hajj Qassem's martyrdom fall short of affecting Iran's geostrategic position in a negative way, but said position has experienced further improvement since then. US think tank analysts have no problems admitting it (as in the previously shared video clip).

Due to Iran's effective power of deterrence, the US regime is feeling highly vulnerable_ to what it would actually take to achieve their strategic aims towards Iran_ - and assassinations or sabotage most definitely do _not_ fall under that category, and never will.


----------



## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> The question was how Iran's geostrategic standing vis a vis the US is supposed to have degraded after Hajj Qasem's martyrdom. Not to debate how worthy the Iranian response has been.
> 
> Fact is and remains that this episode did not affect Iran's position on the ground. It's only effect was in the psy-ops realm, which was not translated into any concrete material gains for the US regime (the Supreme Leader shedding tears or PDF users being upset is not a concrete material gain at the geostrategic level).
> 
> 
> 
> I've consistently underscored that kill ratio comparisons are irrelevant in war. Conflicts are never fought to kill more than the opponent, but to reach predefined political goals (e.g. Soviet versus German casualties in WW2, Vietnamese versus American casualties during the Vietnam war etc).
> 
> So my point wasn't to speculate as to how much of an achievement it was compared to what the US obtained - achievement which is never measured in terms of casualty figures anyway, but in terms of concrete geopolitical indicators and realities _weighed against previously set political objectives_. Iran's support for Iraqi Resistance groups curtailed the US-zionist neocon program for a "New Middle East" more than American backing of Saddam achieved to fulfill its goals i.e. to topple the Islamic Republic and to bring the Revolution to a definitive halt.
> 
> The point was to show that US nuclear weapons could not deter Iran from waging this form of indirect warfare on the US military, whose impact on the ground surpassed the geostrategic effects of Hajj Qasem's assassination by a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> I provided a detailed break down of the relevant discussion segment. There isn't any straw man fallacy.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are referring to the entire discussion from the very start, rather than to the specific part under consideration.
> 
> But to address the above nonetheless,
> 
> 1) Despite Iranian megaton nukes, they likely would have carried out these assassinations all the same. Nuclear weapons do not deter against any and all use of force. They have even failed at systematically averting full fledged conventional conflict as in the Falklands in 1982, and that ranks higher in the intensity and scope of violence than the mere assassination of a general.
> 2) If armed with megaton nukes, Iran would have been sanctioned all the same. Even in the absence of a civilian nuclear program, they would have sanctioned Islamic Iran.
> 
> At any rate, this isn't what matters most. Relevant is chiefly the outcome in concrete geopolitical terms, viewed through the prism of the stated and/or implicit political objectives meant to be served by means of the military instrument. In this regard, the US regime has quite utterly failed at causing any strategic setback for Iran with its sanctions and isolated terrorist operations.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't relevant. Not only did Hajj Qassem's martyrdom fall short of affecting Iran's geostrategic position in a negative way, but the latter has experienced further improvement since then. US think tank analysts have no problems admitting it (as in the previously shared video clip).
> 
> Due to Iran's effective power of deterrence, the US regime is feeling highly vulnerable_ to what it would actually take to achieve their strategic aims towards Iran_ - and assassinations or sabotage most definitely do not fall under that category.


Again, a long post of nothing!

"I have underscored that kill ratio comparisons are irrelevant", but I am happy to bring up 600+ US soldiers that were killed like 15 years ago for something that happened just 2 years ago and 2 of Iran's most important commanders were killed without any lethal retaliation on our part. LOL At the same time, when I realize that the US is responsible for over 500,000+ deaths of Iranians, it suddenly becomes irrelevant. LOL

Dude, stop writing your nonsense. I know you're not Iranian because you have admitted it before on your own. I think you are an Afghan Hazara or something, but I don't know for sure. I think you type these long answers because you're on a payroll and you're paid by the number of words that you type. So, just cut it short. I don't have time to read long answers that only hit around the bush and avoid the real matter.

You say if Iran was armed with megatonne nukes, we would be sanctioned. I didn't know that we aren't sanctioned now. There are more sanctions on Iran than on North Korea currently. And again, since when you care about sanctions? I thought sanctions were a good thing?

The points are very clear. It doesn't matter how much you attempt in futile to change it and pretend that the discussion is about something else. Everyone who has read the topic knows what we are discussing. It is about Iran's nuclear strategy and the deterrence that nuclear arsenal can give Iran.


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## Natalya Shadova

Mobin stealth cruise missile shown off. Hopefully we see an anti ship missile version on future Moudges

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## Daylamite Warrior

QWECXZ said:


> Considering your flags that belongs to the country that is Iran's eternal enemy, and your mother is probably currently wh0ring for her English masters now, it is quite clear who is brown nosing westerners.
> 
> Madar jendehi ke parchame Angalestan ro gozashti o ehtemalan pedaret kooni boode too qom va ba'd landan, oon zamani ke to haroom zadeh inja naboodi 2 ta dayi man to jang shahid shodan zena zadeh tokhme haroom.



Lol what a hypocrite, aren't you the one who's 100% for sure living in the west, supporting the same system to be imposed on Iran and your own mother and sister are free to see on adult websites? Your fake outrage is pathetic and obvious to see. Apart from where I was born, where have I brown nosed anyone other than Iran? Whereas one doesn't need to look far to see your credulous bache kooni pandering to the enemies of Iran. We will never let your ilk have a significant footing in Iran, ever! Cope!

Doorghgooye kesafat! Agair rast migi kheyli pas bache kooni hasti ke miyay inja jelow e ma Amrikaro suk mizani, valad e zena! Familit bikhod kardan shaheed shodan baraye yek haroom zadeye mesle to! Nanat va babat faghad shahr-e-no baladan becharkhoonan dar gharb, va harshab bache sarbazaye amrikayi miyan koon e nanato jer midan, kharkoste. To ye bache yahoodi hasti, bayeed midonam che migi. Boro koon bede!

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> "I have underscored that kill ratio comparisons are irrelevant", but I am happy to bring up 600+ US soldiers that were killed like 15 years ago for something that happened just 2 years and 2 of Iran's most important commanders were killed without any lethal retaliation. LOL



See the thread of the discussion.

1) I cited a standalone figure, not a ratio.
2) The reason I did this is not to say "wow, Iran caused so many US casualties, see how strong Iran is", but to show that absolute nuclear deterrence against any and all use of force, is a flawed notion.

And I believe that when America's nuclear weapons fail to prevent 600+ US military casualties, then this becomes pretty evident.



QWECXZ said:


> At the same time, when I realize that the US is responsible for over 500,000+ deaths of Iranians, it suddenly becomes irrelevant. LOL



Bringing up numbers of Iranian martyrs of the Sacred Defence is not relevant to my above described argument, which was solely about the limits of nuclear deterrence.

But even so: Washington failed in its attempt to have Saddam halt the Revolution, and Washington also failed to topple the IR via Saddam. These were their goals - rather than to kill more Iranians than Iran would kill American troops.



QWECXZ said:


> Dude, stop writing your nonsense. I know you're not Iranian because you have admitted it before on your own. I think you are an Afghan Hazara or something, but I don't know for sure. I think you type these long answers because you're on a payroll and you're paid by the number of words that you type. So, just cut it short. I don't have time to read long answers that only hit around the bush and avoid the real matter.



Quite unfortunate an ad hominem, is it not.



QWECXZ said:


> You say if Iran was armed with megatonne nukes, we would be sanctioned. I didn't know that we aren't sanctioned now. There are more sanctions on Iran than on North Korea currently. And again, since when you care about sanctions? I thought sanctions were a good thing?



You: "Iran needs megatonne nukes for deterrence (...) the situation is nowhere as good as you pretend it is because (...) our economy is bleeding from their unilateral sanctions."

Me: If you believe sanctions are bad for Iran, then the proposed solution for deterrence, ie megaton nuclear bombs, would be useless in this regard.

Hope this clears it up.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## QWECXZ

Daylamite Warrior said:


> Lol what a hypocrite, aren't you the one who's 100% for sure living in the west, supporting the same system to be imposed on Iran and your own mother and sister are free to see on adult websites? Your fake outrage is pathetic and obvious to see. Apart from where I was born, where have I brown nosed anyone other than Iran? Whereas one doesn't need to look far to see your credulous bache kooni pandering to the enemies of Iran. We will never let your ilk have a significant footing in Iran, ever! Cope!
> 
> Doorghgooye kesafat! Agair rast migi kheyli pas bache kooni hasti ke miyay inja jelow e ma Amrikaro suk mizani, valad e zena! Familit bikhod kardan shaheed shodan baraye yel haroom zadeye mesle to! Nanat va babat faghad shahr-e-no baladan becharkhoonan dar gharb, va harshab bache sarbazaye amrikayi miyan koon e nanato jer midan, kharkoste. To ye bache yahoodi hasti, bayeed midonam che migi. Boro koon bede!


I am living in Tehran, fagg*t. Unlike you whose dream is to steal Iran's money and spend it in London for your English masters to pimp your mother and sister in England. You were never born in England. You're just embarrassed about using your real flags, madar jendeh.

Boro bache kooni. Felan boro to landan koonet ro bede. Felan ooni ro ke daran mikonan khahare jendeye pooste ghahveyie toye ke donbale kire sefid poost o siah poost oftade balke ye haroomzadeh mesle toro berine. Bache yahoodi toye kooni hasti ke to mahde zionism khaharo madareto harshab dari midi daste mardaye gheyre irani. Bede khaharo madareto khodam barat bokonam, beshin tamasha kon bebin chejoori namooset jigh mizanan roo kiram.



SalarHaqq said:


> See the thread of the discussion.
> 
> 1) I cited a standalone figure, not a ratio.
> 2) The reason I did this is not to say "wow, Iran caused so many US casualties, see how strong Iran is", but to show that absolute nuclear deterrence against any and all use of force, is a flawed notion.
> 
> And I believe that when America's nuclear weapons fail to prevent 600+ US military casualties, then this becomes pretty evident.
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing up numbers of Iranian martyrs of the Sacred Defence is not relevant to my above described argument, which was solely about the limits of nuclear deterrence.
> 
> But even so: Washington failed in its attempt to have Saddam halt the Revolution, and Washington also failed to topple the IR via Saddam. These were their goals - not just to kill more Iranians than Iran would kill American troops.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite unfortunate an ad hominem, is it not.
> 
> 
> 
> You: "Iran needs megatonne nukes for deterrence (...) the situation is nowhere as good as you pretend it is because (...) our economy is bleeding from their unilateral sanctions."
> 
> Me: If you believe sanctions are bad for Iran, then the proposed solution for deterrence, ie megaton nuclear bombs, would be useless in this regard.
> 
> Hope this clears it up.


You have been defeated completely by my arguments. I just love to see how you are now trying to change the subject.

Yeah, bringing up the number of Iranian martyrs is relevant because apparently on some stupid level you think killing 600+ soldiers who most of them were probably a bunch of low-life trigger happy scumbags is a big deal while you are trying your best to downplay the significance of Soleimani's assassination.

And saying that you are not an Iranian is NOT an ad hominem attack but rather a fact that justifies your long meaningless posts that add really nothing.

Again, another stupid remark on your part which is completely irrelevant to what I said. I believe megatonne nukes would end Iran's nuclear sanctions just like it did for China and Pakistan. However, you seem to be such a big fan of US sanctions on Iran, thinking that it is good for Iran. So, even if they sanction us, you should be up for it. So, why not? Don't have the cojohnes to build nukes?


----------



## QWECXZ

Daylamite Warrior said:


> Tokhme a yahoodi, YOU are critisizing, not WE! Know the difference. Not only that, but youre also suggesting that we should capititualte to the west because some mirage sanctions relief. Therefore, the only one here with the extra X chromosomes is definitely you. Sell out MKO terrorists like you only know how to come here and spread wide, because in reality Iran has built a formiddable independent state leaving sore losers like you behind in her wake. Keep crying, because that's all you will ever do.
> 
> To too khabet mibini, chon rastesho bekhay hitch ensani nemiyad shortesho darare baraye hamjenbaz e mesle to. To faghad ba film sooperaye khahareto jagh mizani, oonam mesle ye zan chon kiret enghadr koochike haha! Ama midoonim tamame sarbazaye amrikayi miyan kos e nanato va khareto mizaran, harshab. Babat enghad bigheyrato o kooni has dash koonesham midad be sarbazaye Amrikayi, nachari.


Tokhme sage semitic, it's not your fault that your mother was a party wh*re that had to use drugs and you got retarded, but it is your fault that you talk when you are retaded. Your mother should've taught you not to speak when intelligent people are speaking. After all, she shouldn't want you to go through what she and your father have been through all their lives.

Yadesh bekheyr, mamanet dishab ke dashtam mikardamesh khaterate panahande shodanetoon be Engilis ro dasht ta'reef mikard ke chetori baraye inke to o pedaret ba poolaye dozdi oonja panahande beshin majboor shod bekeshe payeen be mamoora jolo cheshme pedaret bede ta befrestanetoon camp e panahandeha. dorost nist ke madaret ro intori bahash bar khord koni. Doroste madaret jendast, amma ye kam roosh gheyrat dashte bash. Kheili masire sakhti ro baraye inke to o pedare koonit engilis panahande beshin tey karde. Khaharet ham dare rahesh ro ba eftekhar edame mide albate. Behar hal vaghti kolle khanevade kooni o jende bashan hamin mishe dige


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## QWECXZ

Daylamite Warrior said:


> Besooz lol


Felan ooni ke dare misooze toyi. Ye joori nanat gayide shod ke dige goh doonit ro bi moghe baz nakoni, bache mozallef.


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## Hassan Al-Somal

Blue In Green said:


> Iran, Russia, Israel, China, North Korea, U.S., U.K. and many others all operate very actively within the sphere of covert operations. So I truly do think that the downing of the E11-A was just another part of this "shadow-war" each side partakes in, It is what it is.
> 
> Moreover brother, my position has always been that the IRGC AEROSPACE MISSLE FORCE'S response should have been significantly more comprehensive. There were many more targets to be obliterated at Ayn Al-Assad but the IRGC decided to go after only so many. What the Americans had to say on the matter is of little to no consequence. We know from first-hand reports of Danish soldiers that were stationed at Ayn Al-Assad during the attack that "when they came out of their bunkers, helicopters were cut in half and there was widespread destruction".
> 
> I think the level of damage done was considerably more than what the Americans showed and the cover-up/clean up job was done as fast as possible so the story that came out downplayed Iran's operation in order to save-face. Apart of me also thinks that Iran knew that it could only take so much away from the Americans as, again, neither side didn't wants to engage in a costly war so the IRGC took the downing of the E11-A as enough of a blood-revenge to satiate the need for immediate reprisal. Ayn Al-Assad was as more of a show of strength than a "revenge operation".
> 
> It should be noted that, even though Iran has grown its military strength significantly over the recent years. There is no wish to get into a conflict that will see many of those gains destroyed or rolled back. Iran isn't suicidal in this regard.











2020 United States Air Force E-11A crash - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## QWECXZ

Arash1991 said:


> When we would all discuss in a TV Show......you would be in place of following guy here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kuni Farda miam Hamelat mikonam.


Ooni ke hamele shode felan madare jendate ke hamelash kardam to bache kooni mozallef pas oftadi


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## Hack-Hook

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> 2020 United States Air Force E-11A crash - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


this is the result of investigation


> American military authorities opened an investigation into the incident.[4] The aircraft's flight data recorder was recovered.[2]
> 
> The investigation concluded that the crash was caused by a broken turbine blade on the left engine compounded by pilot error.[1] The crew misidentified which engine had failed. As a result, the pilots mistakenly shut off power to the right engine, believing the left engine was still intact. The failure to restart the correct engine in the air, and their attempt to return to Kandahar Air Base, substantially contributed to the mishap. With no working engines, the aircraft lacked the necessary altitude and airspeed to glide to the nearest base, forcing them to make an emergency landing on the snowy terrain, which proved too rugged to land safely.



honestly do you believe a *Bombardier Global Express* (Global 6000) can't show engine pressure ?

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## mohsen

Hack-Hook said:


> this is the result of investigation
> 
> 
> honestly do you believe a *Bombardier Global Express* (Global 6000) can't show engine pressure ?


All indicators and signal lights were off, all displays were also off and didn't show the correct engine failure, none of the crew could see or hear or notice the sudden cut of engine noises.


Because the missile which broke that turbine blade had destroyed everything else too.

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> You have been defeated completely by my arguments. I just love to see how you are now trying to change the subject.



I quote by segments, hence my comments are bound to be directly related to what I'm replying to.



QWECXZ said:


> Yeah, bringing up the number of Iranian martyrs is relevant because apparently on some stupid level you think killing 600+ soldiers who most of them were probably a bunch of low-life trigger happy scumbags is a big deal while you are trying your best to downplay the significance of Soleimani's assassination.



I mentioned the US casualties solely to underscore the fact that America's nuclear bombs couldn't prevent them. And if curtailing the neocon plan for a "New Middle East" to a significant degree is not something worth mentioning, and don't know what is. On the other hand, more than two years have passed since Hajj Qasem's martyrdom and we're yet to see Iran suffer any geostrategic setbacks.



QWECXZ said:


> And saying that you are not an Iranian is NOT an ad hominem attack



Unlike the suggestion I might get paid to post.



QWECXZ said:


> I believe megatonne nukes would end Iran's nuclear sanctions just like it did for China and Pakistan.



Pakistan got sanctioned in 1998 precisely because of its acquisition of nuclear weapons. And these were lifted in 2001 by the Bush junior regime as a reward for cooperation with America's on its so-called "war on terror".

Whilst Beijing had obtained nuclear arms in 1964, the US trade embargo on China was lifted only in 1972. Reason was Nixon's policy of overture towards Beijing, motivated by Washington's desire to take advantage of the Sino-Soviet split and use it against the USSR and its allies, especially in southeast Asia.

Like Korea, Iran will surely remain sanctioned if she opts for nuclear weapons.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> I quote by segments, hence my comments are bound to be directly related to what I'm replying to.
> 
> 
> 
> I mentioned the US casualties solely to underscore the fact that America's nuclear bombs couldn't prevent them. And if curtailing the neocon plan for a "New Middle East" to a significant degree is not something worth mentioning, and don't know what is. On the other hand, more than two years have passed since Hajj Qasem's martyrdom and we're yet to see Iran suffer any geostrategic setbacks.
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike the suggestion I might get paid to post.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan got sanctioned in 1998 precisely because of its acquisition of nuclear weapons. And these were lifted in 2001 by the Bush junior regime as a reward for cooperation with America's on its so-called "war on terror".
> 
> Whilst Beijing had obtained nuclear arms in 1964, the US trade embargo on China was lifted only in 1972. Reason was Nixon's policy of overture towards Beijing, motivated by Washington's desire to take advantage of the Sino-Soviet split and use it against the USSR and its allies, especially in southeast Asia.
> 
> Like Korea, Iran will surely remain sanctioned if she opts for nuclear weapons.


You quote by segments but your answers are full of nothing to be honest.

So, you are basically saying that Pakistan and China can convince the US to lift sanctions but Iran is not capable of that?!
China is more an existential threat to the US than the Islamic Republic can ever dream to be. If the US can have normal ties with China, why not with Iran? Korea is not an energy super power. Iran is an energy super power. Comparing North Korea to Iran with our impressive natural resources (oil, gas, helium, minerals, human resources) is again another meaningless argument that you have come up with.

And how long Iran has been under sanctions without building nukes? Definitely more than China and Pakistan combined. We could as well build nukes because we are going to stay under sanctions no matter what. After all, you have said it yourself, times and times again, that the West's problem with us is not the nuclear program and it's only an excuse. So, for how long do you wish to continue your blatant lies and hypocrisy and contradict yourself?

And again, your hypocrisy is clear. You say sanctions are good for Iran. So, what's the problem? Build nukes and let them sanction us. Don't you argue all the time that sanctions have already reached their maximum and cannot be extended further? So, what's the problem? Oh, are you saying that Iran should negotiate with the US and accept their limits on our nuclear program? Your hypocrisy is disgusting.

You mentioned the US casualties for a point that is even ridiculous to mention. Nobody uses nukes for proxy warfare casualties. The fact that you are even mentioning it is beyond ridiculous and insane. Are you suggesting that the US should nuke Iran because of indirect war casualties in Iraq? Even when Iran has never accepted responsibility for those casualties and has always denied them as baseless accusations? Or do you think the Taliban have established deterrence against the US because the US didn't nuke them for their attacks on US personnel? What kind of weird logic is this?

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## Samar111

SalarHaqq if you are reading this then you should know that Iran has not achieved deterrence against the US. Having your number 1 general assassinated by the US proves this. The only US enemies to have achieved full scale strategic deterrence are North Korea, China and Russia.

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## _Nabil_

@SalarHaqq and @QWECXZ 

Wow, what a deep analysis and discussion, keep the good work 👍 

الإختلاف في الرأي لا يفسد للود قضية

I still can't make my choice on who's right and who's is wrong 😁, the matter is very complicated and Iran is known to be walking on an narrow edge, can't blame it too much ....

@Daylamite Warrior , please stick to the topic, no need to call names and turn it personal, if you have ideas or analysis, you welcome, if not, no need to trash the thread, you still can report to mods if you feel being insulted or whatever.

Good night all 👋

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## Samar111

QWECXZ said:


> You mentioned the US casualties for a point that is even ridiculous to mention. Nobody uses nukes for proxy warfare casualties. The fact that you are even mentioning it is beyond ridiculous and insane. Are you suggesting that the US should nuke Iran because of indirect war casualties in Iraq? Even when Iran has never accepted responsibility for those casualties and has always denied them as baseless accusations? Or do you think the Taliban have established deterrence against the US because the US didn't nuke them for their attacks on US personnel? What kind of weird logic is this?


Weird logic indeed. According to our friend SalarHaqq we need to be asking ourselves:

Why has *India* not nuked *Pakistan*? *Pakistan *supports militants that kill *Indian soldiers*.

Why has *Pakistan* not nuked *India*? *India *supports militants that kill *Pakistani soldiers*.

Why has *Israel* not nuked *Iran*? *Iran *supports Hamas that kill *Israeli soldiers*.

Why has *USA* not nuked *Pakistan*? *Pakistans ISI* supported many different militant group in Afghanistan that killed *US soldiers*.

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## Shawnee

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494074309345746948


----------



## SalarHaqq

> You quote by segments but your answers are full of nothing to be honest.



To be honest no, that isn't the case.



QWECXZ said:


> So, you are basically saying that Pakistan and China can convince the US to lift sanctions but Iran is not capable of that?!



Not really sure why you're misinterpreting my statements and losing the discussion thread. You claimed it was acquisition of nuclear weapons by Pakistan and China which made the US lift sanctions on these countries. I showed how this is not the case, since other factors presided over Washington's decision to lift sanctions in these two instances.



QWECXZ said:


> China is more an existential threat to the US than the Islamic Republic can ever dream to be. If the US can have normal ties with China, why not with Iran?



China is not a threat to the zionist entity. Zionism is a central part of the ideological basis of the US regime. Zionist symbols are integrated into official United States emblems, zionism is intrinsically linked to freemasonry (as per one rabbi, freemasonry is merely an adapted version of the Kabbala), and masonry in turn is the single most salient element in the US regime's ideological foundations - a simple look at the urban architecture of Washington D.C., seat of federal institutions, will make it more than clear. The dominant Anglo-Saxon settlers in north America were Puritanical Protestants of zionist persuasion, as evidenced by their belief in Rapture theology.

It's not Japan nor south Korea, nor India, nor any of the countries bordering the South China Sea which US presidents - no matter their political obedience, routinely and ritually praise and portray and the single closest entity to America, with sort of an organic link binding them together: it's Isra"el" and Isra"el" only.

Furthermore, it remains to be seen whether China will turn against the globalist oligarchy, which largely controls the US regime (including Democrat, classic Republican and fake opposition Trumpist camps). The revolutionary core of the Islamic Republic, however, is pursuing policies which are completely incompatible with the globalist design for a Universal Republic.



QWECXZ said:


> Korea is not an energy super power. Iran is an energy super power. Comparing North Korea to Iran with our impressive natural resources (oil, gas, helium, minerals, human resources) is again another meaningless argument that you have come up with.



It's simply another example of a country against which the US maintained sanctions after it chose to manufacture nuclear weapons. Again, it's necessary to stick to the thread of the discussion, I'm not speaking in a vacuum but strictly reacting to what was said before: here I was responding to the suggestion that nuclear weapons may encourage the US to lift sanctions. And that's not the case, be it with China, Pakistan, Iran or the DPRK.



QWECXZ said:


> And how long Iran has been under sanctions without building nukes? Definitely more than China and Pakistan combined. We could as well build nukes because we are going to stay under sanctions no matter what. After all, you have said it yourself, times and times again, that the West's problem with us is not the nuclear program and it's only an excuse. So, for how long do you wish to continue your blatant lies and hypocrisy and contradict yourself?



No contradiction. Nuclear weapons aren't an existential necessity for Iran. Not at this time nor under current circumstances. They may one day become unavoidable, but that's not the case right now.



QWECXZ said:


> Build nukes and let them sanction us. Don't you argue all the time that sanctions have already reached their maximum and cannot be extended further? So, what's the problem? Oh, are you saying that Iran should negotiate with the US and accept their limits on our nuclear program? Your hypocrisy is disgusting.



Where did I claim it's because of the prospect of additional sanctions that Iran doesn't need nuclear weapons at the moment? I'm saying Iran's nuclear program isn't the essential reason behind the US regime's sanctions policy against Iran. And secondly, that nuclear weapons won't add much to Iran's deterrence at this point in time and given the geopolitical context. There's no contradiction, nor hypocrisy in these statements.

As for the negotiations, once more I'll have to reference users mohsen and sanel1412's explanations on the subject. While adding that the limitations in question, many of which are subject to sunset clauses, do not deprive Iran of its break-out capability, nor of access to the entire spectrum of civilian nuclear technology. And thirdly, that considering Iran's principled stance at the negotiations, it is not guaranteed at all that the JCPOA is going to be revived in its original form to begin with.



QWECXZ said:


> You mentioned the US casualties for a point that is even ridiculous to mention. Nobody uses nukes for proxy warfare casualties. The fact that you are even mentioning it is beyond ridiculous and insane. Are you suggesting that the US should nuke Iran because of indirect war casualties in Iraq?



I'm suggesting that the largest nuclear arsenal in the world will not deter an adversary from resorting to specific forms of military action. That the belief according to which nuclear weapons will preclude any and all (military) casualties and damage is incorrect. And, that those US casualties in Iraq weighed more and were more impactful on the geopolitical reality than Hajj Qasem's martyrdom.

Furthermore, one might turn the quoted argument around and declare that it's ridiculous to even envisage that Iran would have used megaton nuclear weapons on the US for the murder of shahid Soleimani.

There's strictly nothing ridiculous about reminding these facts. What they do, however, is to debunk the supposition that in view of relevant parameters, nuclear weapons will improve Iran's security equation the way that has been suggested they would.



QWECXZ said:


> Even when Iran has never accepted responsibility for those casualties and has always denied them as baseless accusations? Or do you think the Taliban have established deterrence against the US because the US didn't nuke them for their attacks on US personnel? What kind of weird logic is this?



- - - - -



Samar111 said:


> SalarHaqq if you are reading this then you should know that Iran has not achieved deterrence against the US. Having your number 1 general assassinated by the US proves this. The only US enemies to have achieved full scale strategic deterrence are North Korea, China and Russia.



What is full scale / non-full scale deterrence? Could you point me to a work of international relations theory introducing the concept?

Secondly, what I'm insisting on is this: Iran has undeniably achieved deterrence against the US* on what actually matters in the big picture*, on what actually might prove game-changing in the bilateral conflict. As much as I cherish Hajj Qasem, his martyrdom was *not* a game-changing event in the Iran-US confrontation, it did *not* trigger a deterioration of Iran's geostrategic standing vis a vis Washington.

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## jauk

SalarHaqq said:


> I quote by segments, hence my comments are bound to be directly related to what I'm replying to.
> 
> 
> 
> I mentioned the US casualties solely to underscore the fact that America's nuclear bombs couldn't prevent them. And if curtailing the neocon plan for a "New Middle East" to a significant degree is not something worth mentioning, and don't know what is. On the other hand, more than two years have passed since Hajj Qasem's martyrdom and we're yet to see Iran suffer any geostrategic setbacks.
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike the suggestion I might get paid to post.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan got sanctioned in 1998 precisely because of its acquisition of nuclear weapons. And these were lifted in 2001 by the Bush junior regime as a reward for cooperation with America's on its so-called "war on terror".
> 
> Whilst Beijing had obtained nuclear arms in 1964, the US trade embargo on China was lifted only in 1972. Reason was Nixon's policy of overture towards Beijing, motivated by Washington's desire to take advantage of the Sino-Soviet split and use it against the USSR and its allies, especially in southeast Asia.
> 
> Like Korea, Iran will surely remain sanctioned if she opts for nuclear weapons.


To add to that, the ‘sanctions’ are failing as a policy. Their implementation scope and intent will change. There are better and bigger alternatives for countries who have been sanctioned.

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## SalarHaqq

Samar111 said:


> Weird logic indeed. According to our friend SalarHaqq we need to be asking ourselves:
> 
> Why has *India* not nuked *Pakistan*? *Pakistan *supports militants that kill *Indian soldiers*.
> 
> Why has *Pakistan* not nuked *India*? *India *supports militants that kill *Pakistani soldiers*.
> 
> Why has *Israel* not nuked *Iran*? *Iran *supports Hamas that kill *Israeli soldiers*.
> 
> Why has *USA* not nuked *Pakistan*? *Pakistans ISI* supported many different militant group in Afghanistan that killed *US soldiers*.



Nope. You need to be asking yourself this:

What makes you so sure that Iranian nuclear weapons would have prevented the US from martyring Hajj Qasem, when the same nuclear weapons failed to preclude any of the events you cite? Because Hajj Qasem's martyrdom is what you and like minded users keep portraying as supposed proof for lacking deterrence on Iran's part.

I myself mentioned the Falklands war to show that nuclear weapons offer not just a lousy type of insurance against skirmishes and proxy strikes, but that even full fledged conventional attack is possible against a nuclear armed state.

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## QWECXZ

SalarHaqq said:


> To be honest no, that isn't the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really sure why you're misinterpreting my statements and losing the discussion thread. You claimed it was acquisition of nuclear weapons by Pakistan and China which made the US lift sanctions on these countries. I showed how this is not the case, since other factors presided over Washington's decision to lift sanctions in these two instances.
> 
> 
> 
> China is not a threat to the zionist entity. Zionism is a central part of the ideological basis of the US regime. Zionist symbols are integrated into official United States emblems, zionism is intrinsically linked to freemasonry (as per one rabbi, freemasonry is merely an adapted version of the Kabbala), and masonry in turn is the single most salient element in the US regime's ideological foundations - a simple look at the urban architecture of Washington D.C., seat of federal institutions, will make that more than clear. The dominant Anglo-Saxons settlers in northern America were Puritanical Protestants of zionist persuasion, as evidenced by their belief in Rapture theology.
> 
> It's not Japan nor south Korea, nor India, nor any of the countries bordering the South China Sea which US presidents - no matter their political obedience, routinely and ritually praise and portray and the single closest entity to America, with sort of an organic link binding them together: it's Isra"el" and Isra"el" only.
> 
> Furthermore, it remains to be seen whether China will turn against the globalist oligarchy, which largely controls the US regime (including Democrat, classic Republican and fake opposition Trumpist camps). The revolutionary core of the Islamic Republic, however, is pursuing policies that are completely incompatible with the globalist design for a Universal Republic.
> 
> 
> 
> It's simply another example of a country against which the US maintained sanctions after it manufactured nuclear weapons. Again, it's necessary to stick to the thread of the discussion, I'm not speaking in a vacuum but strictly reacting to what was said before: here I was responding to the suggestion that nuclear weapons may encourage the US to lift sanctions. And that's not the case, be it with China, Pakistan, Iran or the DPRK.
> 
> 
> 
> No contradiction. Nuclear weapons aren't an existential necessity for Iran. Not at this time nor under current circumstances. They may one day become unavoidable, but that's not the case right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I claim it's because of the prospect of additional sanctions that Iran doesn't need nuclear weapons at the moment? I'm saying Iran's nuclear program isn't the essential reason behind the US regime's sanctions policy against Iran. And secondly, that nuclear weapons won't add much to Iran's deterrence at this point in time and given the geopolitical context. No contradiction, no hypocrisy, nothing of the sort here.
> 
> As for the negotiations, once more I'll have to reference users mohsen and sanel1412's explanations on the subject. While adding that the limitations in question, many of which are subject to sunset clauses, do not deprive Iran of its break-out capability, nor of access to the entire spectrum of civilian nuclear technology. And thirdly, that considering Iran's principled stance at the negotiations, it is not guaranteed at all that the JCPOA is going to be revived in its original form to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm suggesting that the largest nuclear arsenal in the world will not deter an adversary from resorting to specific forms of military action. That the belief according to which nuclear weapons will preclude any and all (military) casualties and damage is incorrect. And, that those US casualties in Iraq weighed more and were more impactful on the geopolitical reality than Hajj Qasem's martyrdom.
> 
> Furthermore, one might turn the quoted argument around and declare that it's ridiculous to even envisage that Iran would have used megaton nuclear weapons on the US for the murder of shahid Soleimani.
> 
> There's strictly nothing ridiculous about reminding these facts. What they do, however, is to debunk the supposition that in view of relevant parameters, nuclear weapons will improve Iran's security equation the way that has been suggested they would.
> 
> 
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> 
> 
> What is full scale / non-full scale deterrence? Could you point me to a work of international relations theory introducing the concept?
> 
> Secondly, what I'm insisting on is this: Iran has undeniably achieved deterrence against the US* on what actually matters in the big picture*, on what actually might prove game-changing in the bilateral conflict. As much as I cherish Hajj Qasem, his martyrdom was *not* a game-changing event in the Iran-US confrontation, it did *not* trigger a deterioration of Iran's geostrategic standing vis a vis Washington.


I didn't even bother to read most of your nonsense.

1- Your argument that nuclear weapons stop indirect war casualties through proxy warfare is beyond ridiculous. 

2- Killing 600+ foot soldiers over a span of 8 years during an invasion bears no geopolitical importance. Assassinating two of Iran's most powerful commanders and top nuclear scientist are extremely important developments of high geopolitical importance.

3- Nuclear triad is an existential necessity for any independent country. 

4- Your worthless nonsense about Zionism does not change the fact that China is a greater threat to the US than the Mullah clowns of Iran can ever dream in their wet dreams. Iran doesn't even show up in US mainstream media very often but China is discussed daily. If you think otherwise, you are either completely retarded or a propaganda mouthpiece on payroll. China will soon take the place of the US as the first global power while the best that the Mullahs of Iran can ever dream of is staying a regional power similar to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, even Turkey with all its economic troubles is at a better regional position than Iran today.

5- You didn't answer any of my questions simply because you do not have an answer to them. I can repeat them if you want. Your answers stink of hypocrisy, are completely dishonest, lacks any argument that can be taken seriously, and it sometimes it stoops low to the level of conspiracy theories that anyone with a sane brain would laugh at your face.

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## SalarHaqq

QWECXZ said:


> I didn't even bother to read most of your nonsense.





QWECXZ said:


> 1- Your argument that nuclear weapons stop indirect war casualties through proxy warfare is beyond ridiculous.



Never made that argument. If you actually bothered to read carefully, since you're admitting you don't, perhaps you'd get it.



QWECXZ said:


> 2- Killing 600+ foot soldiers over a span of 8 years during an invasion bears no geopolitical importance. Assassinating two of Iran's most powerful commanders and top nuclear scientist are extremely important developments of high geopolitical importance.



Except that noone could show how Iran's geostrategic standing is supposed to have deteriorated as a result. Simply suggesting it did is no evidence. Truth is that no such thing took place, as admitted by US think tank pundits (like shown in the video posted before).

Also, US casualties in Iraq led to a loss of appetite for more wars in D.C.. The "real men" who intended to "go to Tehran" were successfully stopped in their tracks. The division of Iraq into three formally independent successor states never took place. Condoleezza's Rice "new Middle East" whose "birth pangs" she believed to be witnessing never came to fruition.



QWECXZ said:


> 3- Nuclear triad is an existential necessity for any independent country.



It doesn't offer full guarantee of survival, the defunct and dismantled USSR being a testimony to this.

More over, depending on the context, other means can offer similar levels of security and protection, as demonstrated by Islamic Iran.



QWECXZ said:


> 4- Your worthless nonsense about Zionism does not change the fact that China is a greater threat to the US than the Mullah clowns of Iran can ever dream in their wet dreams. Iran doesn't even show up in US mainstream media very often but China is discussed daily. If you think otherwise, you are either completely retarded or a propaganda mouthpiece on payroll. China will soon take the place of the US as the first global power while the best that the Mullahs of Iran can ever dream of is staying a regional power similar to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, even Turkey with all its economic troubles is at a better regional position than Iran today.



Anyone dismissing as nonsense the fact that to US decision makers and elites, Tel Aviv counts as much as the US itself is choosing to remain oblivious to the fundamental ground realities of the American regime. There's a reason why the term Isra"el"-firsters in reference to much of the American political class has gained so much currency, being indirectly acknowledged by academia even (see the seminal work of Mearsheimer and Waltz).

Also, if China opts to implement the globalist agenda, then the ruling oligarchy won't care whether China replaces US as the leading world power.

Lastly, being replaced as the leading power onto itself is not necessarily an existential type of threat. The UK regime lost that position too but didn't cease to exist.

Oh, and whatever "mullahs" achieved is magnitudes superior to what a bona fide US and zionist vassal like the former shah regime did. Not to mention that the number of states daring enough to challenge the zio-American order in a systematic way and meaningful way is limited to about a handful out of a hundred and ninety-five.



QWECXZ said:


> 5- You didn't answer any of my questions simply because you do not have an answer to them. I can repeat them if you want. Your answers stink of hypocrisy, are completely dishonest, lacks any argument that can be taken seriously, and it sometimes it stoops low to the level of conspiracy theories that anyone with a sane brain would laugh at your face.



This represents no more than ad hominems and gratuitous shots. Everything put to me was answered in a sincere, rational, competent enough and fact-based manner. In reality it's constant use of demeaning vocabulary which reflects a need to compensate for a lack of convincing counters.

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## WudangMaster

I highly recommend checking out this youtube channel I recently found.

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## WudangMaster

This is another recent channel I recommend, especially all of the interviews with Mr. Azarmehr. There seems to be a set of good channels popping up lately...

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## Stryker1982

Is their confirmation that some of Irans missiles use thermobaric warheads or is this not confirmed yet?


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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> Is their confirmation that some of Irans missiles use thermobaric warheads or is this not confirmed yet?



I believe Dezful is supposed to be armed with thermobaric warheads.

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## Natalya Shadova

Stryker1982 said:


> Is their confirmation that some of Irans missiles use thermobaric warheads or is this not confirmed yet?


I know a bunch of Iranian ATGMs and hand held rocket launchers have thermobaric warheads


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## Oldman1

What do you think of Russia's Iskander missiles accuracy compared to Iran's?

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## Blue In Green

Oldman1 said:


> What do you think of Russia's Iskander missiles accuracy compared to Iran's?



Iran's strike against Ayn-Al Assad managed to destroy a lot of building/assets whereas these pictures show nothing of worth being destroyed other than dirt....

Wtf is going on at Russian high-command?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498530033262022656

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498510963565383680

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## Oldman1

Blue In Green said:


> Iran's strike against Ayn-Al Assad managed to destroy a lot of building/assets whereas these pictures show nothing of worth being destroyed other than dirt....
> 
> Wtf is going on at Russian high-command?


Either its bad equipment or conscripts that don't know how to fire missiles.

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## Blue In Green

Oldman1 said:


> Either its bad equipment or conscripts that don't know how to fire missiles.


The missiles themselves would have coordinates locked in prior to launch, so something must have gone wrong during in-flight correction or during the terminal descent phase.

Wow...Russia's performance has been an utter disaster. I can't believe what I'm seeing....

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## Oldman1

Blue In Green said:


> The missiles themselves would have coordinates locked in prior to launch, so something must have gone wrong during in-flight correction or during the terminal descent phase.
> 
> Wow...Russia's performance has been an utter disaster. I can't believe what I'm seeing....


Not to mention how many missiles were fired. You think they would have tried to take out the base on the first day of the war at least.

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## Blue In Green

Oldman1 said:


> Not to mention how many missiles were fired. You think they would have tried to take out the base on the first day of the war at least.



They opted or a limited widespread opening strike thinking that they would only face paltry Ukrainian resistance (boy were they fucking wrong lol). Using COIN tactics to achieve their missions objectives but, as you correctly said. They've absolutely failed to nullify advanced TB2 drones (amongst other assets) which are now hidden all over the place and attacking vulnerable sections of Russias long armored columns. 

It seems as though they've changed pace and are going a more traditional heavy counterforce route in order to achieve battlefield objectives.

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## Oldman1

Blue In Green said:


> They opted or a limited widespread opening strike thinking that they would only face paltry Ukrainian resistance (boy were they fucking wrong lol). Using COIN tactics to achieve their missions objectives but, as you correctly said. They've absolutely failed to nullify advanced TB2 drones (amongst other assets) which are now hidden all over the place and attacking vulnerable sections of Russias long armored columns.
> 
> It seems as though they've changed pace and are going a more traditional heavy counterforce route in order to achieve battlefield objectives.



Either that, or they just don't have enough of the Iskander missiles for this operation. The rest are somewhere else.

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## Blue In Green

Oldman1 said:


> Either that, or they just don't have enough of the Iskander missiles for this operation. The rest are somewhere else.



Rob Lee on Twitter has a thread about how the Russian military (unlike America, Iran, etc..) doesn't have that large an arsenal of precision weaponry (missiles, cruise, quasi-ballistic). So that might have been a reason why the opening salvo was not as impactful.

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## Oldman1

Blue In Green said:


> Rob Lee on Twitter has a thread about how the Russian military (unlike America, Iran, etc..) doesn't have that large an arsenal of precision weaponry (missiles, cruise, quasi-ballistic). So that might have been a reason why the opening salvo was not as impactful.


Makes you think about the hoopla on new missiles and other armaments like the new stealth fighter and bombers, nuclear sea drones, etc. I'm sure some are real, but I think they are having a hard time producing them in large quantities.

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## Blue In Green

Oldman1 said:


> Makes you think about the hoopla on new missiles and other armaments like the new stealth fighter and bombers, nuclear sea drones, etc. I'm sure some are real, but I think they are having a hard time producing them in large quantities.



Undoubtedly this is the case.

The Su-57 is a perfect example of this issue. I still remember when the Russians and Indians were working on this 5th-gen fighter together until the Indians finally decided that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and left the project leaving only Russia to work on it and they still haven't gotten it to mass-production phase yet I believe.

Only other nation on the Earth that has managed to both mass-produce and field their own domestic 5th-gen fighter is China with their J-20.

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## Oldman1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498544825062375434


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## Messerschmitt

Iran vs Al Assad Airbase, Iraq:






Russia vs Ozerne Airbase, Ukraine:

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## sha ah

If this were an American operation, you would have seen thousand of civilians killed already. Going into this, for the sake of their image, the Russians wanted to avoid civilians casualties if they could help it. They also wanted to keep most of Ukraines infrastructure intact since that would be an asset.

Ukranians are putting up more resistance than Putin would have liked but we have to keep in mind that not only the US but the entire west is supporting Ukraine with modern weapons. When the US invaded Iraq, the Iraqis had almost no ATGMs and MANPADS to speak of. They also had no support from anyone.

Anyways the Russians are sending more and more reinforcements into Ukraine and are now using more heavy handed and ruthless tactics. Right now there is a column heading to Kiev that is 65 KM long. Most of the weapons being sent to the front now consists of heavy armor.

Of course with multiple fronts it's difficult to stay organized and to provide air defenses to every unit. Another issue is that the Russians seem to be far too over confident going into this. Notice how their columns are not spread out like they should be. Also a system like TOR is famous for being able to be active while mobile, but the Russians don't even bother activating its radar while on the move ? That's either sheer stupidity or overconfidence on their part.

Anyways it will be interesting to see what transpires as the Russians tighten the noose and begin pounding enemy positions with their full might. Despite losses they are advancing and soon the Ukrainians will begin to run out of food, water, ammunition and they will have no heating or electricity. Cunningly the Russians have offered civilians a way out through "humanitarian corridors" If this escalates, soon Ukrainian cities that don't concede defeat will be turned into ghost towns and rubble.



Oldman1 said:


> Either that, or they just don't have enough of the Iskander missiles for this operation. The rest are somewhere else.

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## sha ah

Well the Russians have also destroyed most of Ukraine's airforce and air defenses at this point. They've also struck hundreds of other targets. The Russians could easily show off their achievements but they don't want to antagonize and enrage the Ukrainian population anymore than they already have. 

Yes Iran has done pretty well for itself considering its limitations. Al Assad was really about sending a message more than anything and it did. However in case of a real war scenario, Iran would only strike at the most sensitive and vital targets of the enemy, including communications, command and control, etc. 

Airfields can always be quickly repaired, but people who have been trained for decades are much harder to replace. A group of commanders or vital communication equipment at an HQ that costs tens of millions, even fighter jets that cost $100 million each. These cannot so easily be replaced.



Messerschmitt said:


> Iran vs Al Assad Airbase, Iraq:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia vs Ozerne Airbase, Ukraine:

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## Sineva

Messerschmitt said:


> Iran vs Al Assad Airbase, Iraq:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia vs Ozerne Airbase, Ukraine:


Now that is just fvcking embarrassing......😲

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## Ich

It looks like the 4 Missiles at the right fall 20 Meters to short, what is within the CEP of 10-30 meters.


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## Sineva

Messerschmitt said:


> Iran vs Al Assad Airbase, Iraq:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia vs Ozerne Airbase, Ukraine:


One cant help but notice that the difference in accuracy between the two is rather stark.....and thats putting it mildly.😮

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## Raghfarm007

Iskandar is surley a powerful missile, but the Russians would do well buying a few Fateh class missiles....

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## Hack-Hook

Blue In Green said:


> The missiles themselves would have coordinates locked in prior to launch, so something must have gone wrong during in-flight correction or during the terminal descent phase.
> 
> Wow...Russia's performance has been an utter disaster. I can't believe what I'm seeing....


the missile also need altitude of the target , also altitude of where you are and then they also need coordination of target and your own coordination . any of them can made the problem


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## SalarHaqq

Blue In Green said:


> They opted or a limited widespread opening strike thinking that they would only face paltry Ukrainian resistance (boy were they fucking wrong lol).



Why must we posit they were expecting paltry Ukrainian resistance? The Russians are thoroughly informed about Ukrainian capabilities and certainly have very good intelligence on the decision making process in Kiev. Moscow might very well have opted for a limited opening strike while being perfectly aware this would cost them some casualties, which I believe is the more probable hypothesis.

After all the goal of such an operation is not to terrorize the opponent's constituency but on the contrary, to make Russia appear under as benevolent a light as possible. Thus Russia would refrain from operating like the US regime, known for smashing and carpet bombing everything that moves in order to try and ensure zero casualties among their own troops (and then claim they have more regard for human life). The Russian public has a higher threshold of tolerance for casualties than America.



Blue In Green said:


> They've absolutely failed to nullify advanced TB2 drones (amongst other assets) which are now hidden all over the place and attacking vulnerable sections of Russias long armored columns.



Significantly, these UAV's have been the single most efficient weapons system in inflicting damage on Russian assets. Whereas the Ukrainian air force failed to achieve anything worth mentioning.

What this goes to confirm, is how smart and clear-sighted Iran's military planning has been, given Iranian focus on drones alongside missiles, rather than much more costly investment in less survivable air power.

In a theoretical war against the US, Iran will be in a position similar to Ukraine versus Russia, i.e. the assumed underdog. Only Iran will be several fold more efficient than Ukraine, which is lacking Iran's BM force, an air defence grid as developed as Iran's etc. All the more so, such a powerful force would wreck havoc on any regional adversary.



Blue In Green said:


> It seems as though they've changed pace and are going a more traditional heavy counterforce route in order to achieve battlefield objectives.



This was probably part of the plan from the get go: increase the pressure on Kiev step by step, for so long as they show no willingness to accept Russian ceasefire terms. A good strategy by Russia, one that avoids civilian casualties to a large extent while having a high chance of enabling Moscow to meet its political objectives.

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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Either its bad equipment or conscripts that don't know how to fire missiles.


Strange. I expected better, kinda looks like the old days for Iran when running tests.

Whether they are cruise missiles or ballistic, maybe they were subjected to electronic warfare? I would imagine the US would want to test some of their electronic devices here in preparation for destabilizing the accuracy of Iran's missiles. or GLONASS is just not good enough to met GPS standards.

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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Makes you think about the hoopla on new missiles and other armaments like the new stealth fighter and bombers, nuclear sea drones, etc. I'm sure some are real, but I think they are having a hard time producing them in large quantities.


Yeah, at the end of the day. If you can't produce it, then who cares how fancy your tech is. Russia can have Zircon and Khinzal, but if you only produce 25, it's not going to change the course of any war.

Most countries seem to really desire looking very modern and high tech, but often lack depth of inventory rather than developing practically capability even if it doesn't demonstrate highest sophistication. Frankly, the US is the only country along with Germany, Japan UK, China and France (maybe I missed some other) that can actually afford the weapons they posses. Your weapons and economy are interlinked.

Everyone else is buying equipment they can't afford and after the first week, run out of munitions when they cost 20k each. Hence why I still don't see laser guided artillery rounds as common in Iran, and most countries don't even stockpile thousands of them even though they are decisive, not even Russia.

A difference I see between Russia and the US, is how methodical the US is. US troops would carefully and slowly move through roads, and if they encounter heavy resistance or ambushes in buildings, they'd order a laser guided round into the building or an airstrike. They'd recon for movements and targets and precisely target them. When the US was in Fallujah, the city was largely left in tact except for the specific points where they thought soldiers or arms would be.

The Russians and 90% of countries would just shell the shit out of the whole area and then move in. When the Russians take Kharkiv, I'd imagine large chunks of the city would be badly damaged. Stark difference in operability. It's the year 2022, but probably a handful of countries can actually conduct modern warfare in practise.


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## Maula Jatt

Samar111 said:


> Weird logic indeed. According to our friend SalarHaqq we need to be asking ourselves:
> 
> *Why has India not nuked Pakistan? Pakistan *supports militants that kill *Indian soldiers*.
> 
> Why has *Pakistan* not nuked *India*? *India *supports militants that kill *Pakistani soldiers*.
> 
> Why has *Israel* not nuked *Iran*? *Iran *supports Hamas that kill *Israeli soldiers*.
> 
> *Why has USA not nuked Pakistan?* *Pakistans ISI* supported many different militant group in Afghanistan that killed *US soldiers*.


(satire warning )Cause Pakistanis are Chads while others are virgins- simple as that
We built Nuclear bombs under US nose in return for beating up USSR who were supporting Indians for decades - killing 2 birds with 1 stones
and installed US enemies in Afghanistan while calling them our allys, friends
straight up 4D chess shit

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Yeah, at the end of the day. If you can't produce it, then who cares how fancy your tech is. Russia can have Zircon and Khinzal, but if you only produce 25, it's not going to change the course of any war.
> 
> Most countries seem to really desire looking very modern and high tech, but often lack depth of inventory rather than developing practically capability even if it doesn't demonstrate highest sophistication. Frankly, the US is the only country along with Germany, Japan UK, China and France (maybe I missed some other) that can actually afford the weapons they posses. Your weapons and economy are interlinked.
> 
> Everyone else is buying equipment they can't afford and after the first week, run out of munitions when they cost 20k each. Hence why I still don't see laser guided artillery rounds as common in Iran, and most countries don't even stockpile thousands of them even though they are decisive, not even Russia.
> 
> A difference I see between Russia and the US, is how methodical the US is. US troops would carefully and slowly move through roads, and if they encounter heavy resistance or ambushes in buildings, they'd order a laser guided round into the building or an airstrike. They'd recon for movements and targets and precisely target them. When the US was in Fallujah, the city was largely left in tact except for the specific points where they thought soldiers or arms would be.
> 
> The Russians and 90% of countries would just shell the shit out of the whole area and then move in. When the Russians take Kharkiv, I'd imagine large chunks of the city would be badly damaged. Stark difference in operability. It's the year 2022, but probably a handful of countries can actually conduct modern warfare in practise.


I can't say for sure...but I'm getting the feeling that most of the Russian conscripts are being misled into this war. Not because of the invasion of Ukraine under false pretense of fighting Nazis...but that they think they were in live fire military exercises. Now you can say its propaganda, but showing the incompetence of the conscripts of this level tells me that they are doing on hands training but in real war because their officers guided them to their deaths or capture. I'm just saying...

The ones who I believe knows what they are really doing and know why they are there are the Chechens and the forces in the east and south. I deal with them quickly.

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Strange. I expected better, kinda looks like the old days for Iran when running tests.
> 
> Whether they are cruise missiles or ballistic, maybe they were subjected to electronic warfare? I would imagine the US would want to test some of their electronic devices here in preparation for destabilizing the accuracy of Iran's missiles. or GLONASS is just not good enough to met GPS standards.



No, even though they are helping Ukraine, they won't go that far to reveal such capabilities. I think it's just Russian missiles or their guidance system.


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## Blue In Green

SalarHaqq said:


> Why must we posit they were expecting paltry Ukrainian resistance? The Russians are thoroughly informed about Ukrainian capabilities and certainly have very good intelligence on the decision making process in Kiev. Moscow might very well have opted for a limited opening strike while knowing full well that it would cost them some casualties, which I believe is the more probable hypothesis.
> 
> After all the goal of such an operation is not to terrorize the opponent's constituency but on the contrary, to make Russia appear under as benevolent a light as possible. Thus Russia would not operate like the US regime, smashing and carpet bombing everything that moves in order to try and ensure zero casualties among their own troops (and then claim they have more regard for human life). The Russian public has a higher threshold of tolerance for casualties in war than America.
> 
> 
> 
> Significantly, these UAV's have been the single most efficient weapons system in inflicting damage on Russian assets. Whereas the Ukrainian air force failed to achieve anything worth mentioning.
> 
> What this goes to confirm, is how smart and clear-sighted Iran's military planning has been, given Iranian focus on drones alongside missiles, rather than much more costly investment in less survivable air power.
> 
> In a theoretical war against the US, Iran will be in a position similar to Ukraine versus Russia, i.e. the assumed underdog. Only Iran will be several fold more efficient than Ukraine, which is lacking Iran's BM force, an air defence grid as developed as Iran's etc. All the more so, such a powerful force would wreck havoc on any regional adversary.
> 
> 
> 
> This was probably part of the plan from the get go: increase the pressure on Kiev step by step, for so long as they show no willingness to accept Russian ceasefire terms. A good strategy by Russia, one that avoids civilian casualties to a large extent while having a high chance of enabling Moscow to meet its political objectives.



Agreed, I think Iran has the right approach given its current circumstance and doctrine. Although there is a pressing need to inject the air-force with some modicum of advanced 21st century fighters (interception and general air-defense) but you're 100% on the dot brother. The deadly mix between highly precise ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and drones (of all types) as well as regional allies. Allows Iran to enjoy a sort of "combined arms" capability that will prove invaluable in any future conflict.

The Western (obviously biased) consensus thus far has been that the Russians are pressing far too fast pushing their armor and supplies beyond the range of their mobile AD cover (TOR, OSA, PANSTIR) which is causing a lot of their men and equipment to be exposed to ambush and attack from the handful of remaining TB2s as well as Ukrainian forces conducting direct-fire operations on exposed sections of these multiple kilometer long armored columns. What's worse is that it some of the equipment (heavy armor specifically) is being pushed way too far head leading the crews to abandon their tanks/AD systems due to lack of fuel or supplies. I'm not all too familiar with just how normal this would be given the circumstances. In all honesty, the Russian Federation is undertaking one the largest land-grabs in recent history, at world-record pace no-less. So these incidents might just be part and parcel of such an operation and not an indication of Russian military quality/training.

Moreover, some information about how Russian troops are communicating with each other has come out and to say that the information is sad would be an understatement. They seem to be using "open ended" communication devices allowing Ukrainian forces and anyone else eavesdropping to literally pick up on all their plans. I don't know the veracity of this report but it shows that the Russian military is somewhat underprepared.

To your first point Salar-jan, I think that the safety of both your troops and equipment should be just as important as minimizing civilian casualties but again the consensus on this has been that the initial Russian strike against critical Ukrainian assets has been sub-optimal leading to the remaining Ukrainian forces (which are still quite sizable) to be able to mount fierce although ultimately futile resistance. The Russians are sustaining *unnecessary *losses due to several key factors. They will inevitably win in the end but some issues have been revealed nonetheless.


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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> I can't say for sure...but I'm getting the feeling that most of the Russian conscripts are being misled into this war. Not because of the invasion of Ukraine under false pretense of fighting Nazis...but that they think they were in live fire military exercises. Now you can say its propaganda, but showing the incompetence of the conscripts of this level tells me that they are doing on hands training but in real war because their officers guided them to their deaths or capture. I'm just saying...
> 
> The ones who I believe knows what they are really doing and know why they are there are the Chechens and the forces in the east and south. I deal with them quickly.


Theirs alot of bizzare things I can't keep wrap my head around. I doubt they don't know they are invading. But maybe they are reluctant.

I don't doubt Russia's ability to win against Ukraine (which is no small feat). But I think I've seen the Iraqi army and Syrian army fight better than Russian troops which really seems to indicate a moral & motivation problem. The Chechens with no skin in the game are more interested in winning. 

This war was not sold properly to the Russian people and the soldiers and I tend to think they are not really keen on fighting among other problems.

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Theirs alot of bizzare things I can't keep wrap my head around. I doubt they don't know they are invading. But maybe they are reluctant.
> 
> I don't doubt Russia's ability to win against Ukraine (which is no small feat). But I think I've seen the Iraqi army and Syrian army fight better than Russian troops which really seems to indicate a moral & motivation problem. The Chechens with no skin in the game are more interested in winning.
> 
> This war was not sold properly to the Russian people and the soldiers and I tend to think they are not really keen on fighting among other problems.


Yeah I doubt it the first time when videos of Russian prisoners being interrogated and they use the excuse that they thought they were in military exercises I thought that was a very stupid excuse to use considering the airborne attacks with planes, helos, as well as multi pronged attack from other directions and carrying live ammo. I figure they used that phrase to avoid being executed or something. But in just barely few days in the war and you have many vehicles being abandoned left and right and more prisoners saying the same crap, I'm starting to wonder. But invading Ukraine is also another factor where they just don't want to be there so that could be it. Its just the tactics the conscripts used that confused me and probably many others. Leaving their dead behind easily, staying in their vehicles instead of getting out to secure the area, abandoning the vehicles so easily including many of them not damage either by enemy fire or accident or breakdowns, many getting lost, bad equipment, etc.

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## WudangMaster

Oldman1 said:


> Yeah I doubt it the first time when videos of Russian prisoners being interrogated and they use the excuse that they thought they were in military exercises I thought that was a very stupid excuse to use considering the airborne attacks with planes, helos, as well as multi pronged attack from other directions and carrying live ammo. I figure they used that phrase to avoid being executed or something. But in just barely few days in the war and you have many vehicles being abandoned left and right and more prisoners saying the same crap, I'm starting to wonder. But invading Ukraine is also another factor where they just don't want to be there so that could be it. Its just the tactics the conscripts used that confused me and probably many others. Leaving their dead behind easily, staying in their vehicles instead of getting out to secure the area, abandoning the vehicles so easily including many of them not damage either by enemy fire or accident or breakdowns, many getting lost, bad equipment, etc.


I don't if this is still happening amongst conscripts in the russian army, but it might explain a great many things:








Full Metal Torture


Over the recent New Year's holidays, Private Andrei Sychyov's superiors tied him to a chair and beat him continuously for hours and hours, taking breaks only to sustain their drinking binge.




www.vice.com

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## Oldman1

WudangMaster said:


> I don't if this is still happening amongst conscripts in the russian army, but it might explain a great many things:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full Metal Torture
> 
> 
> Over the recent New Year's holidays, Private Andrei Sychyov's superiors tied him to a chair and beat him continuously for hours and hours, taking breaks only to sustain their drinking binge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com


I remember that. Don't know if they stop such practice since I remember seeing videos of it long time ago. There is hazing in the U.S. military but nothing like that.

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## Saddam Hussein

Russia's a dead country, every Russian tries to leave to come to Europe/USA and put up a tough Russian persona as their style whilst buying American goods.

Iran is no different, same shit. Isolated. Every sane Iranian studies in the west to escape.

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## BigMelatonin

Stryker1982 said:


> Theirs alot of bizzare things I can't keep wrap my head around. I doubt they don't know they are invading. But maybe they are reluctant.
> 
> I don't doubt Russia's ability to win against Ukraine (which is no small feat). But I think I've seen the Iraqi army and Syrian army fight better than Russian troops which really seems to indicate a moral & motivation problem. The Chechens with no skin in the game are more interested in winning.
> 
> This war was not sold properly to the Russian people and the soldiers and I tend to think they are not really keen on fighting among other problems.


To me it seems like Russia deployed it's lowest quality soldiers from it's poorest equipped divisions to fight, the question is why. IMO the most likely reason, if you exclude simple hubris or incompetence, is that they want to save their best soldiers and equipment in case the war broadened to include NATO. The Russians are experiencing high casualties but they're still getting the job done at this point.


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## Muhammed45

Messerschmitt said:


> Iran vs Al Assad Airbase, Iraq:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia vs Ozerne Airbase, Ukraine:


@PeeD dear sir

Is it because Russians have not completely mastered the drone+BM combination and still use satellite imagery for precision strikes?


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## PeeD

Muhammed45 said:


> @PeeD dear sir
> 
> Is it because Russians have not completely mastered the drone+BM combination and still use satellite imagery for precision strikes?



No, I would say likely human error at TEL positioning before launch

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## sha ah

When you view videos of soldiers talking under interrogation, you have to take what they say with a grain of salt. The Russians initially wanted to storm and overwhelm Ukraine. Now that they're meeting stiff resistance, the Russians will have no choice but to use more heavy handed tactics. Some people are surprised by Russian casualties, but Ukraine has been armed and is being supported by NATO which is no joke. Wars are not black in white and no victory is absolute. Wars will always include back and forth, retreats, regrouping, etc Right now the Russians are slowly but surely advancing. I'll be curious to see what the situation looks like in a month from now.



Oldman1 said:


> Yeah I doubt it the first time when videos of Russian prisoners being interrogated and they use the excuse that they thought they were in military exercises I thought that was a very stupid excuse to use considering the airborne attacks with planes, helos, as well as multi pronged attack from other directions and carrying live ammo. I figure they used that phrase to avoid being executed or something. But in just barely few days in the war and you have many vehicles being abandoned left and right and more prisoners saying the same crap, I'm starting to wonder. But invading Ukraine is also another factor where they just don't want to be there so that could be it. Its just the tactics the conscripts used that confused me and probably many others. Leaving their dead behind easily, staying in their vehicles instead of getting out to secure the area, abandoning the vehicles so easily including many of them not damage either by enemy fire or accident or breakdowns, many getting lost, bad equipment, etc.

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## mohsen



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## Stryker1982

BigMelatonin said:


> To me it seems like Russia deployed it's lowest quality soldiers from it's poorest equipped divisions to fight, the question is why. IMO the most likely reason, if you exclude simple hubris or incompetence, is that they want to save their best soldiers and equipment in case the war broadened to include NATO. The Russians are experiencing high casualties but they're still getting the job done at this point.


I really think this might be it.

The main axis of advance to Kyiv from the North West was units from the Far Eastern military district in Siberia. Very soviet way of thinking to be so careless about deaths, but it's a logical conclusion.



Oldman1 said:


> I remember that. Don't know if they stop such practice since I remember seeing videos of it long time ago. There is hazing in the U.S. military but nothing like that.


What those guys are doing is at such level of violent crime, you'd get life sentences for it in Canada or America. That's not even hazing, that's like kidnapping and torture. I doubt they stopped, that's just their way of thinking, they think it "toughens" them out.

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## Messerschmitt



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## Maula Jatt

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 820144
> View attachment 820145
> View attachment 820146
> View attachment 820147


Missile names are epic though ngl "Khyber Shikan"

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Sainthood 101 said:


> Khyber Shikan"


It means anti Khaibar in Urdu 😶

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## SalarHaqq

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> It means anti Khaibar in Urdu 😶



Khaybar breaker in Persian.

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## Maula Jatt

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> It means anti Khaibar in Urdu 😶


My brother you should contact your urdu teacher
Shikan means breaking or destroying something like talwaar shikan or Koh shikan
A thing/man so tough he can break the sword
Or someone so tough he can figuratively break apart mountains
Anti is more like khilaaf or mukhaalif

Khilaaf-e-Khyber is anti-khyber
Mukhaalif-e-khyber is more of a verb (I guess) where you're actively doing something against Khyber

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> I really think this might be it.
> 
> The main axis of advance to Kyiv from the North West was units from the Far Eastern military district in Siberia. Very soviet way of thinking to be so careless about deaths, but it's a logical conclusion.


If that is true and most of the forces attacking from the north are pretty much untrained conscript army but just a useful diversion but could have helped take Kiev, then if I was the general of of the Ukrainian forces, I focus on wiping them out or make them surrender since they have been stalling for days since they reach Kiev. Not even attempt to do a massive assault on the city. They have to been running out of fuel and food. I attack them with all the drones and artillery if possible, wipe out the North invasion convoys and relieved the pressure on Kiev and its population, as well as well able to start helping South and East forces.

Not to mention wiping out these forces would help boost the morale even more and encourage the Ukrainians to keep on fighting.


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## Muhammed45

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 820144
> View attachment 820145
> View attachment 820146
> View attachment 820147












Completely covers Israel and American allies.

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## Saddam Hussein

Muhammed45 said:


> View attachment 820294
> 
> View attachment 820295
> 
> 
> Completely covers Israel and American allies.


You will lose

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## Muhammed45

Saddam Hussein said:


> You will lose


Not as bad as your Avatar my Ba'athi. 

Persian Gulf sheiks funded American invasion on Iraq because of one reason, Saddam was of no threat to them. 

Now look at that Map again.

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## Sineva

Saddam Hussein said:


> You will lose


Well you`d know all about that,now wouldnt you saddam?,losing wars I mean.
In fact that seemed to be about the only thing that the iraqi military was good at........failure,still to be fair,that was equally true of most of the other arab militaries as well.

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## Saddam Hussein

Sineva said:


> Well you`d know all about that,now wouldnt you saddam?,losing wars I mean.
> In fact that seemed to be about the only thing that the iraqi military was good at........failure,still to be fair,that was equally true of most of the other arab militaries as well.



Did you manage to leave Iran yet


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## drmeson

On topic, We need an list of actual missiles being inducted and deployed compared to experimental projects or technology demonstrators.

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## jauk

Oldman1 said:


> If that is true and most of the forces attacking from the north are pretty much untrained conscript army but just a useful diversion but could have helped take Kiev, then if I was the general of of the Ukrainian forces, I focus on wiping them out or make them surrender since they have been stalling for days since they reach Kiev. Not even attempt to do a massive assault on the city. They have to been running out of fuel and food. I attack them with all the drones and artillery if possible, wipe out the North invasion convoys and relieved the pressure on Kiev and its population, as well as well able to start helping South and East forces.
> 
> Not to mention wiping out these forces would help boost the morale even more and encourage the Ukrainians to keep on fighting.


If Russia's toll goes beyond their set tolerances they will unleash deadly retaliatory strikes elsewhere which Ukraine can't respond to. Ukraine recognizes that...which make the war all the more a lost cause for them. Additionally, looking at it the other way around, the fact that the column has been left mostly untouched belies Ukraine's physical inability to carry out massive assaults. Pin-pricks here and there maybe but no organized and meaningful assault.

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## Stryker1982

jauk said:


> If Russia's toll goes beyond their set tolerances they will unleash deadly retaliatory strikes elsewhere which Ukraine can't respond to. Ukraine recognizes that...which make the war all the more a lost cause for them. Additionally, looking at it the other way around, the fact that the column has been left mostly untouched belies Ukraine's physical inability to carry out massive assaults. Pin-pricks here and there maybe but no organized and meaningful assault.


I was about to say that.


Oldman1 said:


> If that is true and most of the forces attacking from the north are pretty much untrained conscript army but just a useful diversion but could have helped take Kiev, then if I was the general of of the Ukrainian forces, I focus on wiping them out or make them surrender since they have been stalling for days since they reach Kiev. Not even attempt to do a massive assault on the city. They have to been running out of fuel and food. I attack them with all the drones and artillery if possible, wipe out the North invasion convoys and relieved the pressure on Kiev and its population, as well as well able to start helping South and East forces.
> 
> Not to mention wiping out these forces would help boost the morale even more and encourage the Ukrainians to keep on fighting.


Both the guys North of the city, and that 40-mile convoy the news media is raging about, completely untouched. I begs the questions why they are not able to work in some artillery on the units north of the city. Surely the US is providing intel on their positions.

Is it political? Is it just a lack of capability? Do the Ukrainians even have any meaningful artillery capability anymore? I am not too sure about it. I have only seen a one-way battering of artillery from one side. It's possible Russia has some immense fires capability deployed in the north and while they are not using it, the Ukrainians do not want to mount an attack out of fear of provoking it.

I think Ukraine itself are at a point where they are not able to mount offensives and are just trying to hold ground, but I could be wrong and we could be surprised. US + EU would seriously have to consider some sort of comprehensive lend-lease program with full range of support and weapons if they want Ukraine to actually seize back land otherwise If it continues like this, much of Ukraine will be in ruins.

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## Sineva

Saddam Hussein said:


> Did you manage to leave Iran yet


I hate to break it to you m8,but I`m neither iranian nor residing in iran,I`m as western a westerner as you could hope to find.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

drmeson said:


> On topic, We need an list of actual missiles being inducted and deployed compared to experimental projects or technology demonstrators.


Evidence of soumar's 3000km ??

This is ultra huge.


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## QWECXZ

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Evidence of soumar's 3000km ??
> 
> This is ultra huge.


Soumar is the Iranian version of Kh-55. We purchased 12 of them from Ukraine in 2001 and started producing our own reverse-engineered version in 2012.


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## Saddam Hussein

Sineva said:


> I hate to break it to you m8,but I`m neither iranian nor residing in iran,I`m as western a westerner as you could hope to find.



White man walking here


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## sanel1412

Stryker1982 said:


> I was about to say that.
> 
> Both the guys North of the city, and that 40-mile convoy the news media is raging about, completely untouched. I begs the questions why they are not able to work in some artillery on the units north of the city. Surely the US is providing intel on their positions.
> 
> Is it political? Is it just a lack of capability? Do the Ukrainians even have any meaningful artillery capability anymore? I am not too sure about it. I have only seen a one-way battering of artillery from one side. It's possible Russia has some immense fires capability deployed in the north and while they are not using it, the Ukrainians do not want to mount an attack out of fear of provoking it.
> 
> I think Ukraine itself are at a point where they are not able to mount offensives and are just trying to hold ground, but I could be wrong and we could be surprised. US + EU would seriously have to consider some sort of comprehensive lend-lease program with full range of support and weapons if they want Ukraine to actually seize back land otherwise If it continues like this, much of Ukraine will be in ruins.


That convoy is following advance of the assult units,same with other convoys...and also Ukraine force was mainly focused now to retreat and group in urban area,they are avoiding open confrotation..Ukraine air defense and airforce doesnt exist anymore as integrated system,they have some assets here and there but this is loast couse. Russians didnt introduce all of their force they bring to borders,and that is around 200k,with DNR,LNR they are advancing with 70% of deployed force..and they have a lot of reserve..But seems Russians are not still resolved some of their old flaws,organisation and logistic was near terrible...battalions are worst units to form tactical groups and invade country and that is what Russians have deployed,so called tactical battalion groups...they should organize 3 regional Armies with full organization and deployment,from corps,brigades..etc. But as someone mentioned,Putin is spy,he probably had in mind fast regime change not invasion(as they said),it will work but with more casulties

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## sanel1412

Also,what cant be un noticed,is lack of Russia advanced weapons,we saw KA52...Caliber,Iskander...but note any of their drones,drones should be at first line now...but seems their production capabilities are not that great or they simple prioritize different things


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## drmeson

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Evidence of soumar's 3000km ??
> 
> This is ultra huge.



Iranian modified version of KH-55 kent, it has mild aerodynamic change











Soon I will be doing a separate thread on Iranian missile capabilities with extreme technical details like engine diameters, Isp's, videos of them hitting targets with very low CEP etc, compared to DPRK, Israel etc.

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## Progressive1

does iran has indigenous cruise missile , sub sonic or super sonic?


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## drmeson

Progressive1 said:


> does iran has indigenous cruise missile , sub sonic or super sonic?



Soumar - 2500-3000 km (Iranian version of KH-55 kent with different motor, seeker and aerodynamics, can be air launched)

Hoveziyeh 1350 Km

Ya-Ali - 700 Km (can be air launched)

Qader AShCM - 300 km (enhanced range; Licensed production C-802/C803)

Jask-2 - 35 KM (Submarine Launched)

... You can watch test videos of them all on youtube.

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> I was about to say that.
> 
> Both the guys North of the city, and that 40-mile convoy the news media is raging about, completely untouched. I begs the questions why they are not able to work in some artillery on the units north of the city. Surely the US is providing intel on their positions.
> 
> Is it political? Is it just a lack of capability? Do the Ukrainians even have any meaningful artillery capability anymore? I am not too sure about it. I have only seen a one-way battering of artillery from one side. It's possible Russia has some immense fires capability deployed in the north and while they are not using it, the Ukrainians do not want to mount an attack out of fear of provoking it.
> 
> I think Ukraine itself are at a point where they are not able to mount offensives and are just trying to hold ground, but I could be wrong and we could be surprised. US + EU would seriously have to consider some sort of comprehensive lend-lease program with full range of support and weapons if they want Ukraine to actually seize back land otherwise If it continues like this, much of Ukraine will be in ruins.


Well whatever it is, they need to figure how how or what tools to achieve that goal, I wouldn't wait too long and just be reactive to it, I be proactive on dealing with all enemy forces on the left North Side of Kiev before dealing with forces trying to reach Kiev from the East and North East as you can see.







jauk said:


> If Russia's toll goes beyond their set tolerances they will unleash deadly retaliatory strikes elsewhere which Ukraine can't respond to. Ukraine recognizes that...which make the war all the more a lost cause for them. Additionally, looking at it the other way around, the fact that the column has been left mostly untouched belies Ukraine's physical inability to carry out massive assaults. Pin-pricks here and there maybe but no organized and meaningful assault.


Since Russia is already unleashing deadly retaliatory strikes by not getting what they want, that's the least of of Ukrainians' concern considering the massive convoy trying to take Kiev and a big blow in defeating Ukraine.


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## Blue In Green

Oldman1 said:


> Well whatever it is, they need to figure how how or what tools to achieve that goal, I wouldn't wait too long and just be reactive to it, I be proactive on dealing with all enemy forces on the left North Side of Kiev before dealing with forces trying to reach Kiev from the East and North East as you can see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since Russia is already unleashing deadly retaliatory strikes by not getting what they want, that's the least of of Ukrainians' concern considering the massive convoy trying to take Kiev and a big blow in defeating Ukraine.



With more troops/supplies coming in from the Eastern defense regions of the Russian Federation. I think the outcome of this war is pretty clear, a complete military victory for the Russians at the cost of heavy casualties to men and equipment as as well exposing some critical issues within the command structure and on-the-ground efficacy of Russian planning/execution.


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## Oldman1

Blue In Green said:


> With more troops/supplies coming in from the Eastern defense regions of the Russian Federation. I think the outcome of this war is pretty clear, a complete military victory for the Russians at the cost of heavy casualties to men and equipment as as well exposing some critical issues within the command structure and on-the-ground efficacy of Russian planning/execution.


Thats not a guarantee. It will take them awhile to bring those forces to bear and they are having a hard time supplying the forces in theater now. Just because you have 30k tanks doesn't mean you can easily send in 30k tanks along with the crews if they have the numbers to crew them that need to well fed and supplied.


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## jauk

Oldman1 said:


> Since Russia is already unleashing deadly retaliatory strikes by not getting what they want, that's the least of of Ukrainians' concern considering the massive convoy trying to take Kiev and a big blow in defeating Ukraine.


That assessment is incorrect. Devastating retaliation ( read Grozny) is the very last thing Russia wants to do for several obvious reasons . Which they haven’t. Yet. But they will gradually increase the volume in relation to their time vs success goals. However, they’re relatively on track it seems, given the 15 days goal is true.


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## sha ah

Casualties are to be expected since Ukrainians are pretty well armed by NATO. There's no way around it. Any army that would have gone into this situation would have faced the same issues when the enemy has a surplus of ATGMs and MANPADS.

Anyways the fall of Mariupol and Kharkiv seems imminent now. It's just a matter of time since they're both surrounded. After that the Ukrainians morale will begin to crack. Hopefully they will accept peace terms after that. If not Kiev will be surrounded and forced to capitulate.

One thing is for sure. There is an excessive amount of of fake evidence when it comes to this conflict floating around the internet and mainstream media. From the two IL-76 planes that were shot down without a shred of evidence, to the ghost of Kiev which is completely fabricated, the Ukrainian armored vehicle that ran over a car in Kiev being labeled a Russian armored vehicle. 

That's just the tip of the iceberg. There are pictures of destroyed Ukrainian equipment being labeled as Russian, a Russian general who was supposedly killed who actually turned out to be alive. BBC and CNN trying to tell people that Ukraine is winning the war and that Putin has gone mad. I honestly don't even bother anymore, it's just a waste of time.














Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in maps — latest updates


A visual guide to the war




www.ft.com







Oldman1 said:


> If that is true and most of the forces attacking from the north are pretty much untrained conscript army but just a useful diversion but could have helped take Kiev, then if I was the general of of the Ukrainian forces, I focus on wiping them out or make them surrender since they have been stalling for days since they reach Kiev. Not even attempt to do a massive assault on the city. They have to been running out of fuel and food. I attack them with all the drones and artillery if possible, wipe out the North invasion convoys and relieved the pressure on Kiev and its population, as well as well able to start helping South and East forces.
> 
> Not to mention wiping out these forces would help boost the morale even more and encourage the Ukrainians to keep on fighting.





sanel1412 said:


> That convoy is following advance of the assult units,same with other convoys...and also Ukraine force was mainly focused now to retreat and group in urban area,they are avoiding open confrotation..Ukraine air defense and airforce doesnt exist anymore as integrated system,they have some assets here and there but this is loast couse. Russians didnt introduce all of their force they bring to borders,and that is around 200k,with DNR,LNR they are advancing with 70% of deployed force..and they have a lot of reserve..But seems Russians are not still resolved some of their old flaws,organisation and logistic was near terrible...battalions are worst units to form tactical groups and invade country and that is what Russians have deployed,so called tactical battalion groups...they should organize 3 regional Armies with full organization and deployment,from corps,brigades..etc. But as someone mentioned,Putin is spy,he probably had in mind fast regime change not invasion(as they said),it will work but with more casulties

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## Mr Iran Eye

Ahahahaahh diversify your sources of information, Russia moves faster than you think.

Chechen forces advances like lions since they arrived in combat.Plus Russia is moving more targeting and information is accurate, the more effective they are. Your sources here are not level


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## Oldman1

sha ah said:


> Casualties are to be expected since Ukrainians are pretty well armed by NATO. There's no way around it. Any army that would have gone into this situation would have faced the same issues when the enemy has a surplus of ATGMs and MANPADS.
> 
> Anyways the fall of Mariupol and Kharkiv seems imminent now. It's just a matter of time since they're both surrounded. After that the Ukrainians morale will begin to crack. Hopefully they will accept peace terms after that. If not Kiev will be surrounded and forced to capitulate.
> 
> One thing is for sure. There is an excessive amount of of fake evidence when it comes to this conflict floating around the internet and mainstream media. From the two IL-76 planes that were shot down without a shred of evidence, to the ghost of Kiev which is completely fabricated, the Ukrainian armored vehicle that ran over a car in Kiev being labeled a Russian armored vehicle.
> 
> That's just the tip of the iceberg. There are pictures of destroyed Ukrainian equipment being labeled as Russian, a Russian general who was supposedly killed who actually turned out to be alive. BBC and CNN trying to tell people that Ukraine is winning the war and that Putin has gone mad. I honestly don't even bother anymore, it's just a waste of time.
> 
> View attachment 820741
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in maps — latest updates
> 
> 
> A visual guide to the war
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ft.com


You'll just have to filter and find your own source of info and whether to believe it or not.



jauk said:


> That assessment is incorrect. Devastating retaliation ( read Grozny) is the very last thing Russia wants to do for several obvious reasons . Which they haven’t. Yet. But they will gradually increase the volume in relation to their time vs success goals. However, they’re relatively on track it seems, given the 15 days goal is true.


And what happens if they haven't achieve all their goals in 15 days? Russia has shown that they are willing to cause devastation if they don't achieve their goals in a cheaper manner and intact.


----------



## jauk

Oldman1 said:


> You'll just have to filter and find your own source of info and whether to believe it or not.
> 
> 
> And what happens if they haven't achieve all their goals in 15 days? Russia has shown that they are willing to cause devastation if they don't achieve their goals in a cheaper manner and intact.


Shrug. They seem to be a little behind already. To reiterate, they break it they own it so destruction is an ugly last option. I assume they will just extend operations until they achieve their goals or run out of time--whichever come first. There are a few steps to take before resorting to that ugly last option which will then be no more than a pyrrhic victory.


----------



## Oldman1

jauk said:


> Shrug. They seem to be a little behind already. To reiterate, they break it they own it so destruction is an ugly last option. I assume they will just extend operations until they achieve their goals or run out of time--whichever come first. There are a few steps to take before resorting to that ugly last option which is no more than a pyrrhic victory.


You think its a pyrrhic victory for the Russians if they somehow take it successfully, but it will be a victory for the Ukrainians when Russia removes its forces.


----------



## jauk

Oldman1 said:


> You think its a pyrrhic victory for the Russians if they somehow take it successfully, but it will be a victory for the Ukrainians when Russia removes its forces.


Incorrect. Please re read and come back again. I’ll follow up if pertinent.


----------



## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Thats not a guarantee. It will take them awhile to bring those forces to bear and they are having a hard time supplying the forces in theater now. Just because you have 30k tanks doesn't mean you can easily send in 30k tanks along with the crews if they have the numbers to crew them that need to well fed and supplied.


The folks attacking supply lines and logistics are no joke.

This convoy has been stuck moving along like a stumbling giant for some days now, and realistically if everything was fine with regards to supplies, they should've already been outside of Kiev by now.
There are some chronic problems they need to deal with.
It can turn real ugly for Russia if Ukraine gets its hands on some short range precision guided missiles.


Blue In Green said:


> With more troops/supplies coming in from the Eastern defense regions of the Russian Federation. I think the outcome of this war is pretty clear, a complete military victory for the Russians at the cost of heavy casualties to men and equipment as as well exposing some critical issues within the command structure and on-the-ground efficacy of Russian planning/execution.


There are still significant risks that are verifiable.

Ukrainian air defenses are still alive at some level. Probably not in a IADS level but in solo units yes.
Kharkiv is still not encircled (unclear if this is verified yet), Mind you, it is practically right at the RUS border, their supply lines should not be stretched so thin at this point.
Great success in the south front, UKR seems to be capitulating there, but again supply lines or manpower doesn't allow for a speedy breakout to approach Kiev from the south and split the country in half. My guess is that Russia will just focus going up the river along it.
There is a propoganda element to it, but their has been alot of abandoned equipment, these are not ignorable losses.

Overall they are still trending in the right direction but with stiff problems and very chaotic organization. They need to deal with UKR special forces , and foreign special forces mercs sooner rather than later.


sha ah said:


> Casualties are to be expected since Ukrainians are pretty well armed by NATO. There's no way around it. Any army that would have gone into this situation would have faced the same issues when the enemy has a surplus of ATGMs and MANPADS.
> 
> Anyways the fall of Mariupol and Kharkiv seems imminent now. It's just a matter of time since they're both surrounded. After that the Ukrainians morale will begin to crack. Hopefully they will accept peace terms after that. If not Kiev will be surrounded and forced to capitulate.
> 
> One thing is for sure. There is an excessive amount of of fake evidence when it comes to this conflict floating around the internet and mainstream media. From the two IL-76 planes that were shot down without a shred of evidence, to the ghost of Kiev which is completely fabricated, the Ukrainian armored vehicle that ran over a car in Kiev being labeled a Russian armored vehicle.
> 
> That's just the tip of the iceberg. There are pictures of destroyed Ukrainian equipment being labeled as Russian, a Russian general who was supposedly killed who actually turned out to be alive. BBC and CNN trying to tell people that Ukraine is winning the war and that Putin has gone mad. I honestly don't even bother anymore, it's just a waste of time.
> 
> View attachment 820741
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in maps — latest updates
> 
> 
> A visual guide to the war
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ft.com





Stryker1982 said:


> The folks attacking supply lines and logistics are no joke.
> 
> This convoy has been stuck moving along like a stumbling giant for some days now, and realistically if everything was fine with regards to supplies, they should've already been outside of Kiev by now.
> There are some chronic problems they need to deal with.
> It can turn real ugly for Russia if Ukraine gets its hands on some short range precision guided missiles.
> 
> There are still significant risks that are verifiable.
> 
> Ukrainian air defenses are still alive at some level. Probably not in a IADS level but in solo units yes.
> Kharkiv is still not encircled (unclear if this is verified yet), Mind you, it is practically right at the RUS border, their supply lines should not be stretched so thin at this point.
> Great success in the south front, UKR seems to be capitulating there, but again supply lines or manpower doesn't allow for a speedy breakout to approach Kiev from the south and split the country in half. My guess is that Russia will just focus going up the river along it.
> There is a propoganda element to it, but their has been alot of abandoned equipment, these are not ignorable losses.
> 
> Overall they are still trending in the right direction but with stiff problems and very chaotic organization. They need to deal with UKR special forces , and foreign special forces mercs sooner rather than later.


I should say, there is still significant risks for UKR as there is a strong potential for the entire army group situated at the Donbass to be surrounded by Russia

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## Oldman1

jauk said:


> Incorrect. Please re read and come back again. I’ll follow up if pertinent.


I already read it and don't have to re read it. You say its a Pyrrhic victory for the Russians after destroying everything, in reality they can rebuild it. For the Ukrainians, it a victory still even if everything is gone since they can rebuild it and still control their own country. The reason as I have said before, Russia wants it intact cause its less costly. But now they have to resort to extreme means, even bombing those they considered pro Russian before the invasion.


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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> The folks attacking supply lines and logistics are no joke.
> 
> This convoy has been stuck moving along like a stumbling giant for some days now, and realistically if everything was fine with regards to supplies, they should've already been outside of Kiev by now.
> There are some chronic problems they need to deal with.
> It can turn real ugly for Russia if Ukraine gets its hands on some short range precision guided missiles.


Those convoys and its forces are stuck and dugged in but just being there is a problem for the Ukrainian forces since its takes their attention away from other fronts, not to mentioned possible reinforcements from Belarus. As I have said before they need to deal with it decisively and turn their attention to East and North East.


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## sha ah

They're in a dilemma right now. If they remove their forces from the Donbas front, the forces in Donbas will likely burst out and expand. If they remain there they could very well be outflanked by incoming Russian forces from behind. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.



Oldman1 said:


> Those convoys and its forces are stuck and dugged in but just being there is a problem for the Ukrainian forces since its takes their attention away from other fronts, not to mentioned possible reinforcements from Belarus. As I have said before they need to deal with it decisively and turn their attention to East and North East.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500058609757081602

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## Ich

The geography is a winner for Iran. All these missile bases deep in the mountains gives Iran a second, even third strike capabillity.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500063692951638020

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## Sineva

Almas ready for export

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500093267433730050

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## Hormuz



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## jauk

Sineva said:


> Almas ready for export


آیا برای ما صدور اصلحه برای منفعت کاری درسته؟ ما اینکاره بشیم؟


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## OldTwilight

sha ah said:


> They're in a dilemma right now. If they remove their forces from the Donbas front, the forces in Donbas will likely burst out and expand. If they remain there they could very well be outflanked by incoming Russian forces from behind. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.


they should try to counter attack to not allow Russians to outflank them ....


just defending won't solve their problem


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## Hack-Hook

jauk said:


> آیا برای ما صدور اصلحه برای منفعت کاری درسته؟ ما اینکاره بشیم؟


what's wrong with it


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## WudangMaster



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## Stryker1982

Ich said:


> The geography is a winner for Iran. All these missile bases deep in the mountains gives Iran a second, even third strike capabillity.


All your munitions warehouses are essentially protected from any surprise attack, all that is needed is direct drone take offs from mountain bases.

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> All your munitions warehouses are essentially protected from any surprise attack, all that is needed is direct drone take offs from mountain bases.


Those drones are catapult launched


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## Oldman1

sha ah said:


> They're in a dilemma right now. If they remove their forces from the Donbas front, the forces in Donbas will likely burst out and expand. If they remain there they could very well be outflanked by incoming Russian forces from behind. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.


They will just have to any forces in the East to stop them from flanking the south east.


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## sha ah

I doubt if they will succeed in stopping the Russians. They can slow them down but the Russian pincer will merge and then they will be trapped. The best thing they can do is try to inflict as many casualties as possible, while gradually withdrawing to avoid being encircled. If Russia successfully encircles the Ukrainian troops facing the Donbas, thousand of Ukrainians could be captured or killed. It will be a disaster for them. Sometimes you have to cut your losses.

The Ukrainians are getting desperate. You can tell by the demeanor of Zelensky who recently insulted NATO calling them useless and weak. At this point they're begging for a no fly zone or jets. Mariupol has no more access to heat, food or water. Sooner or later they will run out of ammunition as Russian airstrikes, artillery, rockets, etc continue to target not only militants but also their supplies.

I just hope that they can arrange another humanitarian corridor before the Russians launch their final push into the city. Likely the Russians will send in paratroopers, Marines by amphibious landing, Russian troops, Donbas militants and Chechen reinforcements all at the same time to storm Mariupol. That will be a major blow to the Ukrainians. After that the Russians will focus on enveloping the Donbas, then Kharkiv, maybe Odesa and finally Kiev. Hopefully by then the Ukrainians will come to their senses and work out some sort of compromise with Russia.



Oldman1 said:


> They will just have to any forces in the East to stop them from flanking the south east.

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## mohsen

Guys, do you know where are Iran's missile bases? well, according to accurate information of our Zionist buddy, they are located in the Qeshm Island and Chabahar port which are located in the middle of Iran!

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## Fulgrim

Better nobody her knows it. Maybe some Israelis are in this forum and Read it later.


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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> Guys, do you know where are Iran's missile bases? well, according to accurate information of our Zionist buddy, they are located in the Qeshm Island and Chabahar port which are located in the middle of Iran!


I knew my geography teacher was misleading me in school ,its the proof


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## sha ah

LOL



Hack-Hook said:


> I knew my geography teacher was misleading me in school ,its the proof

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## WudangMaster



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502797559525707778

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502794434999730177

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502771447818772481

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502813501303181315

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502788012576546821

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502816563438698500

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## Mehdipersian

Mossad kebab
https://uupload.ir/view/-2147483648_-210003_svxe.mp4/

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503297369953214466

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503360575098830851

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## jauk

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503360575098830851


Note. There seem to be secondary explosions on the second incoming on left.

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## WudangMaster



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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503666084284669952

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503698701197496326

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503698707199541252

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503775552695635975

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## Blue In Green

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504576849300623363

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## Stryker1982

Blue In Green said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504576849300623363


For supposedly a villa, those are quite some hardened walls. 

Don't get me wrong any living thing inside cannot suvive the shockwave, but those walls still standing is unusual, even for a middle eastern area where their is heavy emphasis on concrete structures.

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## jauk

Stryker1982 said:


> For supposedly a villa, those are quite some hardened walls.
> 
> Don't get me wrong any living thing inside cannot suvive the shockwave, but those walls still standing is unusual, even for a middle eastern area where their is heavy emphasis on concrete structures.


I agree. So why do you think the shells stand although pounded by multiple astonishingly powerful missiles shattering windows miles away? What could possibly explain that seeming contradiction? And, no, hardened structure is not the answer. 😎


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## Blue In Green

Stryker1982 said:


> For supposedly a villa, those are quite some hardened walls.
> 
> Don't get me wrong any living thing inside cannot suvive the shockwave, but those walls still standing is unusual, even for a middle eastern area where their is heavy emphasis on concrete structures.



We're not being shown the true extent of damage that was inflicted on this Mossad facility. 

The videos show that several or more missiles entered the building practically on-top of each other so it's most likely safe to say that the inside of the structure is "hollowed-out" with any soft bodied target being completely obliterated. 

The entire structure is reinforced to fortress-esque levels of resistance. It's quite remarkable actually. Next time Iran might need to use heavier warheads to completely demolish targets akin to this one.

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## jauk

Blue In Green said:


> We're not being shown the true extent of damage that was inflicted on this Mossad facility.
> 
> The videos show that several or more missiles entered the building practically on-top of each other so it's most likely safe to say that the inside of the structure is "hollowed-out" with any soft bodied target being completely obliterated.
> 
> The entire structure is reinforced to fortress-esque levels of resistance. It's quite remarkable actually. Next time Iran might need to use heavier warheads to completely demolish targets akin to this one.


Given the ostensible power of warheads I believe they penetrated very deep before exploding. The real target was deep underground. As such, the top structure might survive although it’ll settle a bit but not far as it’s sitting on a thick hardened platform which is yet another major protection point of the deep earth structure.

The counter argument is the structure was the target. Which means two unlikely things: 1. the work was being done above ground and 2. the missiles lacked the destructive power to annihilate the structure.

The seeming paradox of powerful explosions and the structure standing leads to the inevitable conclusion the missiles did their job underground. If the target were the structure it would’ve been powder.

Finally my question is why on earth would opponents think they can hide any of this without being identified a priori or immediately after any action? This points to a buckshot strategy of doing anything that might stick. Buckshot strategy is a sign of desperation.

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## Blue In Green

And here we have the clearest picture to date on the scope of destruction caused to the Mossad facility.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505220807911522305
Indications of fortified underground section to the base.







They really got them this time, no questions asked.

It's entirely destroyed......

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## WudangMaster



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505779506644144130

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## Stryker1982

Destructive power of Iskander missile.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505948574823161866

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## Dexon

Stryker1982 said:


> Destructive power of Iskander missile.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505948574823161866


2 thing
our missile in recent attack don't have full warhead to reduce damage and casualty
or
our Materials Science and Engineering is simply F up and cant match with russian to build high quality explosive warhead...

If iskandar used in the recent attack in idlab it would completely leveled...

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## sanel1412

Dexon said:


> 2 thing
> our missile in recent attack don't have full warhead to reduce damage and casualty
> or
> our Materials Science and Engineering is simply F up and cant match with russian to build high quality explosive warhead...
> 
> If iskandar used in the recent attack in idlab it would completely leveled...


No, in Erbil IRGC used probably penetration warhead, while Russians used probably HE, it depend what you want to achive....

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## WudangMaster



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## Mata Elang

WudangMaster said:


>


I think Iran should stop producing the Dehlaviyeh (Kornet) ATGM which has a laser guidance system. Besides its total weight of 63.7 kg which is very heavy (impractical and outdated) it is also dangerous to use because it uses lasers to continuously guide missiles and this is at risk of being noticed by sensors and radars of modern enemy armored vehicles, then this will endanger the position of soldiers from enemy vehicle fire. 

Iran should start doing research and development to create a long-range lightweight portable ATGM that has a high explosive tandem-charge (tank), thermobaric/HE fragmentation warhead (personnel) and has a guided, infrared homing like the FGM-148 Javelin ATGM.

Iran if I'm not mistaken has or already made a copy version of the M47 Dragon portable ATGM but it's too weak, the missiles and guides are outdated, but this can be used by Iran to develop modern portable ATGM missiles like the FGM-148 Javelin.

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## sha ah

Iran produces a wide range of ATGMs and RPGs. Everything from simply RPG-7 to the RPG-30, which fires a pre-cursor round, meant to destroy tanks with reactive armor and active protection systems.

Iran also produces the Toophan series which is based on the American TOW missile. Iran produces modern variants of the Toophan, including bunker buster variants, anti helicopter and anti tank variants. The latest variants carry a thermobaric warhead and can penetrate 900mm of armor.

In 2006, Iran gave Hezbollah Dehlavieh ATGMs (Russian Kornet copy) which were used to destroy atleast 5 Israeli Merkava tanks.


















Mata Elang said:


> I think Iran should stop producing the Dehlaviyeh (Kornet) ATGM which has a laser guidance system. Besides its total weight of 63.7 kg which is very heavy (impractical and outdated) it is also dangerous to use because it uses lasers to continuously guide missiles and this is at risk of being noticed by sensors and radars of modern enemy armored vehicles, then this will endanger the position of soldiers from enemy vehicle fire.
> 
> Iran should start doing research and development to create a long-range lightweight portable ATGM that has a high explosive tandem-charge (tank), thermobaric/HE fragmentation warhead (personnel) and has a guided, infrared homing like the FGM-148 Javelin ATGM.
> 
> Iran if I'm not mistaken has or already made a copy version of the M47 Dragon portable ATGM but it's too weak, the missiles and guides are outdated, but this can be used by Iran to develop modern portable ATGM missiles like the FGM-148 Javelin.

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## Mr Iran Eye

A new troll is born = Mata Elang

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## Shawnee

Mata Elang said:


> I think Iran should stop producing the Dehlaviyeh (Kornet) ATGM which has a laser guidance system. Besides its total weight of 63.7 kg which is very heavy (impractical and outdated) it is also dangerous to use because it uses lasers to continuously guide missiles and this is at risk of being noticed by sensors and radars of modern enemy armored vehicles, then this will endanger the position of soldiers from enemy vehicle fire.
> 
> Iran should start doing research and development to create a long-range lightweight portable ATGM that has a high explosive tandem-charge (tank), thermobaric/HE fragmentation warhead (personnel) and has a guided, infrared homing like the FGM-148 Javelin ATGM.
> 
> Iran if I'm not mistaken has or already made a copy version of the M47 Dragon portable ATGM but it's too weak, the missiles and guides are outdated, but this can be used by Iran to develop modern portable ATGM missiles like the FGM-148 Javelin.



Do you know why Laser is more accurate than IR?
Also
Missile 358 is a lot lighter than Javelin.

Guys

People change their username but their thought process stays the same.

Sinan and T-12345 keep coming in to this section under different names.

I know these guys from Ir.tab and Serpentine times eight to ten years ago. They never changed and they are like 40-50 years old now.

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## Stryker1982

Dexon said:


> 2 thing
> our missile in recent attack don't have full warhead to reduce damage and casualty
> or
> our Materials Science and Engineering is simply F up and cant match with russian to build high quality explosive warhead...
> 
> If iskandar used in the recent attack in idlab it would completely leveled...


I think the thermal sight exaggerates the effect a bit.

In this video, it looks similar to an Iranian missile


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505692303029112844
Although, the Russian warhead seems to be more fiery than Iranian warheads which are more of a blast than a fireball.


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## sanel1412

Stryker1982 said:


> I think the thermal sight exaggerates the effect a bit.
> 
> In this video, it looks similar to an Iranian missile
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505692303029112844
> Although, the Russian warhead seems to be more fiery than Iranian warheads which are more of a blast than a fireball.


Missiles came with different warhead type, Russians targeteted supermarket with Light weight superstructure, it was above ground and Full of ammo, trucks with fuel... Such targets dont need power Full penetration warhead, instead you Use HE, and blast will be Huge... IRGC targeteted villa with Anti shock walls, designed to be protected even from 240mm grad rockets, it also have Underground facillities, that is why they used BM with penetration warheads..But IF you loo whole video there were at least some HE warhead that produced large fireballs... But as I said, it is more about what you targets than warhead itself. IF you hit for example highway road with shell, it will always look as more powerful explosion than IF you hit Football field... With same exactly shell. Also IRGC targeteted country that is not in war with Iran, targets were in highly populated area, sou you dont want to level half the city..

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## Mata Elang

Shawnee said:


> Do you know why Laser is more accurate than IR?
> Also
> Missile 358 is a lot lighter than Javelin.
> 
> Guys
> 
> People change their username but their thought process stays the same.
> 
> Sinan and T-12345 keep coming in to this section under different names.
> 
> I know these guys from Ir.tab and Serpentine times eight to ten years ago. They never changed and they are like 40-50 years old now.


And you know, your laser guide ATGM, which will make your position easier to detect (and possibly the ATGM operator before completing the mission will be shot first) by armored vehicles or modern tanks that have sensors and radar protection.

Btw The 358 missile is a SAM not an ATGM

Try to read carefully before replying to comments, you shouldn't be like @sha ah whose comments are messy or @Mr Iran Eye who can only laugh and complain.


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## Shawnee

Mata Elang said:


> And you know, your laser guide ATGM, which will make your position easier to detect (and possibly the ATGM operator before completing the mission will be shot first) by armored vehicles or modern tanks that have sensors and radar protection.
> 
> Btw The 358 missile is a SAM not an ATGM
> 
> Try to read carefully before replying to comments, you shouldn't be like @sha ah whose comments are messy or @Mr Iran Eye who can only laugh and complain.



Laser guidance has its positive and negative sides. Iran has both IR and Laser based systems. Multiple brands of IR for years.

If you read a bit of history you will see that missile 358 is everything literally.

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## Stryker1982

sanel1412 said:


> Missiles came with different warhead type, Russians targeteted supermarket with Light weight superstructure, it was above ground and Full of ammo, trucks with fuel... Such targets dont need power Full penetration warhead, instead you Use HE, and blast will be Huge... IRGC targeteted villa with Anti shock walls, designed to be protected even from 240mm grad rockets, it also have Underground facillities, that is why they used BM with penetration warheads..But IF you loo whole video there were at least some HE warhead that produced large fireballs... But as I said, it is more about what you targets than warhead itself. IF you hit for example highway road with shell, it will always look as more powerful explosion than IF you hit Football field... With same exactly shell. Also IRGC targeteted country that is not in war with Iran, targets were in highly populated area, sou you dont want to level half the city..


Great response, thank you.



Shawnee said:


> Laser guidance has its positive and negative sides. Iran has both IR and Laser based systems. Multiple brands of IR for years.
> 
> If you read a bit of history you will see that missile 358 is everything literally.


You think the possibility of converting 358 missile (with modifications) into some sort of top attack anti-armor weapon is possible? Perhaps shortening the length a bit for better portability.


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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> You think the possibility of converting 358 missile (with modifications) into some sort of top attack anti-armor weapon is possible? Perhaps shortening the length a bit for better portability.


why do that while we have that in shape of different suicide drones we have


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507079516371439617

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## GrandBotBoi

Mata Elang said:


> I think Iran should stop producing the Dehlaviyeh (Kornet) ATGM which has a laser guidance system. Besides its total weight of 63.7 kg which is very heavy (impractical and outdated) it is also dangerous to use because it uses lasers to continuously guide missiles and this is at risk of being noticed by sensors and radars of modern enemy armored vehicles, then this will endanger the position of soldiers from enemy vehicle fire.
> 
> Iran should start doing research and development to create a long-range lightweight portable ATGM that has a high explosive tandem-charge (tank), thermobaric/HE fragmentation warhead (personnel) and has a guided, infrared homing like the FGM-148 Javelin ATGM.
> 
> Iran if I'm not mistaken has or already made a copy version of the M47 Dragon portable ATGM but it's too weak, the missiles and guides are outdated, but this can be used by Iran to develop modern portable ATGM missiles like the FGM-148 Javelin.


Literally already exists, look up Almas ATGM

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## Mata Elang

GrandBotBoi said:


> Literally already exists, look up Almas ATGM


How could I forget this advanced missile. 
Congratulations to the Iranian IRGC for successfully copying the Israeli Spike ATGM. It is a highly advanced EO and infrared guided ATGM, a light and long range missile. From now on Iran will focus on mass production of these Spike missiles and the production of Dehlavieh will be stopped.

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## GrandBotBoi

Mata Elang said:


> How could I forget this advanced missile.
> Congratulations to the Iranian IRGC for successfully copying the Israeli Spike ATGM. It is a highly advanced EO and infrared guided ATGM, a light and long range missile. From now on Iran will focus on mass production of these Spike missiles and the production of Dehlavieh will be stopped.


Dehlavieh is still a good missile, with newer versions produced by Iran have fire and forget and up to 10km range. It's also much cheaper. It'll stay in production, along with the Almas

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## Sineva

Heres an interesting new development,a separating warhead for the fajr 4,or perhaps something entirely new






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511296545970429959

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## Sineva

Sineva said:


> Heres an interesting new development,a separating warhead for the fajr 4,or perhaps something entirely new
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511296545970429959


Looks like its a bunker buster

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511006668527706114

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## WudangMaster



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## Hack-Hook

WudangMaster said:


>


Well this channel is not a channel you want to base your information on. Comparing 1960 tech with 2010 tech !


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## WudangMaster

Hack-Hook said:


> Well this channel is not a channel you want to base your information on. Comparing 1960 tech with 2010 tech !


Was there anything incorrect in his assessment? I was also a bit puzzled for the comparison to an older missile but overall his videos are very informative and he is one of very few on youtube so active in these matters in a truthful way. A lot of the videos are things already discussed here, but with one or two tidbits of new info in most of his work. 
Another I try to follow are Mr. Azarmehr discussions on Omid Dana and now Mehraein channels. Finally some more good voices are appearing in media to counter all of the garbage of the fat necked insects working for the cannibal whore channels.

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## Hack-Hook

WudangMaster said:


> Was there anything incorrect in his assessment? I was also a bit puzzled for the comparison to an older missile but overall his videos are very informative and he is one of very few on youtube so active in these matters in a truthful way. A lot of the videos are things already discussed here, but with one or two tidbits of new info in most of his work.
> Another I try to follow are Mr. Azarmehr discussions on Omid Dana and now Mehraein channels. Finally some more good voices are appearing in media to counter all of the garbage of the fat necked insects working for the cannibal whore channels.


This channel tends to do so for example it compared Gaza drone with bayractar which is even stranger than this comparison or when it talked about qaher it overstimated it's capabilities and alot more . In all their videos they tends to do such things.

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## WudangMaster

Hack-Hook said:


> This channel tends to do so for example it compared Gaza drone with bayractar which is even stranger than this comparison or when it talked about qaher it overstimated it's capabilities and alot more . In all their videos they tends to do such things.


I noticed something similar from hashiyeh news that I found just last night. I think it also stated that qaher has been flight tested in various sizes and even full size with a different engine than owj or jahesh.

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## Hack-Hook

WudangMaster said:


> I noticed something similar from hashiyeh news that I found just last night. I think it also stated that qaher has been flight tested in various sizes and even full size with a different engine than owj or jahesh.


never saw or heard any flight test of the full size Qaher only radio controlled versions


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## WudangMaster

Hack-Hook said:


> never saw or heard any flight test of the full size Qaher only radio controlled versions


Same here, I could have heard it wrong from the video too as it was very late and I was distracted. I'll post it in IRIAF section. I'm really surprised that it's still being pursued like with sofre mahi.

Just watched it again and the full size has not flown yet but apparently soon. Early in the video, I think it states is supposed to use a turbofan but later in the video it says most likely owj engines. It will likely be owj, if the timetable in the video is accurate.


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## Hack-Hook

WudangMaster said:


> Same here, I could have heard it wrong from the video too as it was very late and I was distracted. I'll post it in IRIAF section. I'm really surprised that it's still being pursued like with sofre mahi.
> 
> Just watched it again and the full size has not flown yet but apparently soon. Early in the video, I think it states is supposed to use a turbofan but later in the video it says most likely owj engines. It will likely be owj, if the timetable in the video is accurate.


we have no turbo fan capable enough it must be owj

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## thesaint

Iranian Army Unveils Fath Ballistic Missile during Parade | Farsnews Agency


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## Hack-Hook

thesaint said:


> Iranian Army Unveils Fath Ballistic Missile during Parade | Farsnews Agency


what unveiled , it was unveiled ages ago
and its not ballistic missile , its some sort of heavy artillery rocket, or tactical battlefield missiles, by the way , they better upgrade it to standards of Dezful or KheybarShekan before deploying it


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## WudangMaster




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## Shawnee

♦️سردار کوثری: ایران دارای تکنولوژی موشک قاره پیماست

🔹سردار «اسماعیل کوثری» روز دوشنبه در سخنرانی خود در همایش «پنجه شکسته» با ذکر خاطره ای از شهید «حسن تهرانی‌مقدم» پدر موشکی ایران گفت: در زمان شهادت وی ایران به تکنولوژی موشک قاره پیما دست یافته بود.
🔹وی از ذکر جزییات بیشتر در این رابطه خودداری کرد.

🔹موشک بالستیک قاره‌پیما به موشک‌های بالستیکی گفته می‌شود که برد مفید آن‌ها بیش از پنج هزار و 500 کیلومتر (3400 مایل) باشد
​

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## Shawnee

مصاحبه فراموش شده


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## Stryker1982

Shawnee said:


> View attachment 838090
> 
> 
> مصاحبه فراموش شده



If JCPOA fails, they might reveal it. Just a hunch.


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## Sineva

Heres something which I think rather neatly illustrates just how much things have changed in the last 6 years vis a vis irans missile forces and their perception among irans enemies.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/3/9/irans-missiles-how-big-a-threat-to-regional-rivals

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## yavar

Iran IRGC Gen. Kowsari: Ex IRGC AS Chief Gen. Haj Hassen Tehrani Moghadam had achieved intercontinental ballistic missiles before his martyrdom

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## WudangMaster

Regarding the recent discussions on Iran's missile inventory being possibly 20,000 or more, how do you all think that breaks down in terms of each missile. In other words, how many Keybar Shekan are being made, vs Sejjil, vs Qiam, etc. Have all the old Shahabs been eliminated or upgraded or sent abroad? Of the Fateh series, how many of the various models do you think might be in stock or being built yearly. Since there is constant research and development and never ending evolution of the missiles, how many units would Iran commit to making before it switches to a newer and better design? Also, can the production lines for the old missiles simply evolve over time as well or would an entire production line be needed for every new missile design? Do the missiles use common components that would stream line the mass production across the board? Also, does this estimate also include the newly upgraded guided rockets that have now become short range pgms?

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## Stryker1982

This good boy has found its way in Vali Asr street in Tehran lol.

I've been on this street.

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## Maula Jatt

@Stryker1982 good to see that you're more active nowadays 








Indian Navy successfully test fires advanced version of BrahMos missile | Watch


Which ship was it launched from? It’s an impressive weapon for sure. Kolkata Class. This is ER extended range version. And the Russian missile which it is copy from is 800 KM. So we can expect this version to be 800 KM. They are also working on 1600 KM missile. @Areesh You don't need 7000...



defence.pk





Ok on this thread I was discussing Iranian millitary doctrine in face of much bigger enemies - as someone with little knowledge of Iranian millitary it was more of what I percieved Iranian doctrine to be

It seems relevant to Indo Pak situation where India is ofcourse much larger than us thus a much larger millitary budget
So we need to be innovative we can't match em head on - I'd they're going F-35 route you don't have the budget to buy F-35 to counter it

This is where I think nations in our situation can look at Iranian doctrine for inspiration

What is it that Iran is doing?, What can other nations copy?, What's Iranian strategy for Persian Gulf, how's Iran planning to use it's missiles?

What's wrong with Iranian strategy that other nations should not copy or it's only relevant to Iranian situation

It'll be cool if you're kind enough to go through it on this thread or preferably on that in terms of how smaller countries (specifically pakistan) can learn from Iran and use its teqnique against larger foes


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## Stryker1982

Sainthood 101 said:


> @Stryker1982 good to see that you're more active nowadays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Navy successfully test fires advanced version of BrahMos missile | Watch
> 
> 
> Which ship was it launched from? It’s an impressive weapon for sure. Kolkata Class. This is ER extended range version. And the Russian missile which it is copy from is 800 KM. So we can expect this version to be 800 KM. They are also working on 1600 KM missile. @Areesh You don't need 7000...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok on this thread I was discussing Iranian millitary doctrine in face of much bigger enemies - as someone with little knowledge of Iranian millitary it was more of what I percieved Iranian doctrine to be
> 
> It seems relevant to Indo Pak situation where India is ofcourse much larger than us thus a much larger millitary budget
> So we need to be innovative we can't match em head on - I'd they're going F-35 route you don't have the budget to buy F-35 to counter it
> 
> This is where I think nations in our situation can look at Iranian doctrine for inspiration
> 
> What is it that Iran is doing?, What can other nations copy?, What's Iranian strategy for Persian Gulf, how's Iran planning to use it's missiles?
> 
> What's wrong with Iranian strategy that other nations should not copy or it's only relevant to Iranian situation
> 
> It'll be cool if you're kind enough to go through it on this thread or preferably on that in terms of how smaller countries (specifically pakistan) can learn from Iran and use its teqnique against larger foes



Throughout history the most common reasons for Iranian military defeats have come from playing the game of the enemy. Whether it was Greece or the Mongol, both we tried to fight their game, their strengths and lost and paid a deep price for it. In the case of the Greeks who had better equipment than us, utilizing bronze for their shields while Persians largely had wicker shields, or the Mongols, leaving the fortified cities and fighting them in the open. Terrible.

Therefore the thought process is not to play the game of the enemy, but to force them to play our game. This is the IRGC thought process. The basis of Iran's naval strategy is A2AD (Anti-access , area denial) and using every available means of technology to enhance it.
You can't expect Pakistan or Iran to go head-to-head with their opponents in the same game. They will always have more tanks, more tech, more ships, it's just something that has to be accepted at this moment. Aligning your priorities and weapons together is the key rather than just building things that everyone else has or what is "traditional".






For Iran, we can never compete with NATO or USA with a surface fleet, and I reckon especially in the future, the same will be true with Pakistan and India. The most important part for both countries is to force each respective nation away from it's ports and seas. In the case of Pakistan, you must never ever allow the Indian navy the capacity to blockade all of Pakistan ports. This is extremely detrimental during war time. Just observe Ukraine. The zone of which you want to expand your A2AD is important. In order to protect shipping, Pakistan must develop the capability for land-based anti-shipping at very long ranges.




*



*

Forcing them to dedicate naval assets to protect their oil/gas imports which leaves their navy at risk of missile salvos. 

You want them to fear coming within 700km of your shores. The result of this is 10s of billions of dollars of Indian investment, rendered useless in their role because of their fear of being targeted forcing them to stay back. This range is also strategically important as it cuts of India's oil imports. In the case of Iran; Iran is so adamant about this, they are working on 2000km anti-shipping missiles, we haven't seen videos of it, but its something that is either successfully complete or seriously perused. For instance after the assassination of Soleimani, the US evacuated its surface fleets into the Arabian sea. Why would a superpower do such things when dealing with a country like Iran. Similar strategy employed by China. Forcing the US away from Taiwan and Japan with 2000km range missiles. Even with Chinas expansive blue water capabilities they still invest in this capability of anti-shipping missiles. 

Their are other strategies that fall under the A2AD umbrella. Extensive production and investment into UAVs and both UAV swarms and waves that is being employed by Iran. Use of UAVs to monitor shipping and collecting visual details about the ships and using large quantities of loitering munitions' to once again, in both physical and psychological generate fear and concern about an impending UAS swarm. One of Iran's commander after unveiling a drone base, said they can launch 60 loitering munitions in a swarm simultaneously from the base, before reloading for the next round. In this day and age, Pakistan should be looking for lethal but low-cost strategies to counter their opponents. A small loitering munition with a weak warhead is very dangerous for a ships sensitive electronics. Communication is not required at all time as image recognition software can allow it to act completely passively. The details of which, you collect when monitoring their ships in peacetime.









Durability and survivability of inventory cannot be overstated against a superior enemy (on paper). The one thing people fail to consider is both logistics and inventory. Most countries have a very thin inventory of premium weapons before fighting like its the 1914s again. Iran intelligently recognizes the danger of enemy airpower and has buried it's stockpiles in tunnel networks and mountains. Tunnel networks will never bee fully known but the entrances may be found. They would also be vehicle capable and can be safely reloaded underground. The stockpile in one location may be disabled for a period of time, but never destroyed. The launchers are also protected as the network is presumably deep enough to protect from earth penetrators, 

Part of survivability is condensing firepower into a normal truck that can be masked as a civilian truck. Iran has through magic achieved a tri-launch TEL that looks like a normal civilian truck. Short of killing every truck, it will not be possible for the opponent to know if this truck is civilian or military unless it fires. Losing equipment is not like the old days, you cannot just make more anti-shipping missiles and launchers, therefore if your airspace if vulnerable, your main option is to harden to avoid a first-strike catastrophe where your inventory is destroyed. The US no longer confronts Iran inside the PG, because even with their incredible ISR capability, the danger of 10, road-mobile, civilian masked tri-launcher anti-shipping BMs -> 30 missiles salvo, is much too high... among other problems. Taiwan also employs this strategy. Using stationary or mobile civilian shipping containers for anti-shipping. You want to deny India from doing what China wants to do to Taiwan. Full naval blockade. That is their main focus, and they will relentlessly attack your anti-shipping capabilities to do so.












Note how everything vehicle based is derived under disguise, deception.

Some of the other strategies are specific to Iran's situations like speed boats these are not really useful for Pakistan and I am no longer sure they are useful for Iran as well. Iran has added suicide UAS on top of the boats to enhance it's swarm capability but this is best utilized in the PG, not in blue waters. Strategies also involved loitering torpedo's and mines but that is again useful for the PG and not for blue waters. 

One of the interesting things the IRGC is doing is building a surface fleet. They are building 3 large catamarans simultaneously, low RCS design, fast and low footprint. Very smooth body structure. It's not clear exactly how they will use them, but it does indicate they are very confident in their A2AD strategy that they can safely operate a fleet of missile-slinging ships with the firepower of a modern corvette instead of several large and thus more vulnerable ones. At the end of the day you still need a Navy, but larger number of smaller ships under the missile umbrella should deny any country from using the sea to their advantage without paying a high price. The PNS Tabuk I see is a good idea and more should be built. Pakistan doesn't need to fight wars 5000km away, it needs power in the Arabian sea to protect its own shipping and it's surrounding areas, and the corvettes should be sufficient in range to do that while also avoiding a blue-water fight as you've pressured their fleet to withdraw far from your borders..

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## Sineva

Stryker1982 said:


> This good boy has found its way in Vali Asr street in Tehran lol.
> 
> I've been on this street.
> 
> View attachment 838932

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## jauk

Sainthood 101 said:


> @Stryker1982 good to see that you're more active nowadays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Navy successfully test fires advanced version of BrahMos missile | Watch
> 
> 
> Which ship was it launched from? It’s an impressive weapon for sure. Kolkata Class. This is ER extended range version. And the Russian missile which it is copy from is 800 KM. So we can expect this version to be 800 KM. They are also working on 1600 KM missile. @Areesh You don't need 7000...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok on this thread I was discussing Iranian millitary doctrine in face of much bigger enemies - as someone with little knowledge of Iranian millitary it was more of what I percieved Iranian doctrine to be
> 
> It seems relevant to Indo Pak situation where India is ofcourse much larger than us thus a much larger millitary budget
> So we need to be innovative we can't match em head on - I'd they're going F-35 route you don't have the budget to buy F-35 to counter it
> 
> This is where I think nations in our situation can look at Iranian doctrine for inspiration
> 
> What is it that Iran is doing?, What can other nations copy?, What's Iranian strategy for Persian Gulf, how's Iran planning to use it's missiles?
> 
> What's wrong with Iranian strategy that other nations should not copy or it's only relevant to Iranian situation
> 
> It'll be cool if you're kind enough to go through it on this thread or preferably on that in terms of how smaller countries (specifically pakistan) can learn from Iran and use its teqnique against larger foes


You should perhaps rephrase your question in the context of your nuclear arms capability and how that fits in your doctrine. In fact, I thought for a ‘smaller state’, nuclear arms are not only the great equalizer but also unburdens them from the cost of achieving conventional equivalence against a ‘larger state’. In that context, Iranian doctrine which is keeping herself undeclared or ‘at threshold’ (for now) might not apply. Broadly, Iranian doctrine relies heavily on an ‘asymmetry complex’ comprised of elements ranging from decoupled and mosaic command and control, precision toolsets with high ROI (which is salient to your comment about naval environment optimized tools like catamarans, missiles boats, and subs plus others like drones, PGMs, etc), and a tight network of allies (not vassels) and highly effective operatives (‘Quds Force’) in Iran’s ‘near abroad’. Ironically this complex is presented as ‘offensive defense’ by policy makers. Note, all of above are external strategies. I didn’t mention internal economic and technological policies which are fundamental. I’m sure you’ll get far more details from those in the know here.

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## Maula Jatt

Stryker1982 said:


> Throughout history the most common reasons for Iranian military defeats have come from playing the game of the enemy. Whether it was Greece or the Mongol, both we tried to fight their game, their strengths and lost and paid a deep price for it. In the case of the Greeks who had better equipment than us, utilizing bronze for their shields while Persians largely had wicker shields, or the Mongols, leaving the fortified cities and fighting them in the open. Terrible.
> 
> Therefore the thought process is not to play the game of the enemy, but to force them to play our game. This is the IRGC thought process. The basis of Iran's naval strategy is A2AD (Anti-access , area denial) and using every available means of technology to enhance it.
> You can't expect Pakistan or Iran to go head-to-head with their opponents in the same game. They will always have more tanks, more tech, more ships, it's just something that has to be accepted at this moment. Aligning your priorities and weapons together is the key rather than just building things that everyone else has or what is "traditional".
> 
> View attachment 838953
> 
> 
> For Iran, we can never compete with NATO or USA with a surface fleet, and I reckon especially in the future, the same will be true with Pakistan and India. The most important part for both countries is to force each respective nation away from it's ports and seas. In the case of Pakistan, you must never ever allow the Indian navy the capacity to blockade all of Pakistan ports. This is extremely detrimental during war time. Just observe Ukraine. The zone of which you want to expand your A2AD is important. In order to protect shipping, Pakistan must develop the capability for land-based anti-shipping at very long ranges.
> 
> View attachment 838956
> *
> View attachment 838957
> *
> 
> Forcing them to dedicate naval assets to protect their oil/gas imports which leaves their navy at risk of missile salvos.
> 
> You want them to fear coming within 700km of your shores. The result of this is 10s of billions of dollars of Indian investment, rendered useless in their role because of their fear of being targeted forcing them to stay back. This range is also strategically important as it cuts of India's oil imports. In the case of Iran; Iran is so adamant about this, they are working on 2000km anti-shipping missiles, we haven't seen videos of it, but its something that is either successfully complete or seriously perused. For instance after the assassination of Soleimani, the US evacuated its surface fleets into the Arabian sea. Why would a superpower do such things when dealing with a country like Iran. Similar strategy employed by China. Forcing the US away from Taiwan and Japan with 2000km range missiles. Even with Chinas expansive blue water capabilities they still invest in this capability of anti-shipping missiles.
> 
> Their are other strategies that fall under the A2AD umbrella. Extensive production and investment into UAVs and both UAV swarms and waves that is being employed by Iran. Use of UAVs to monitor shipping and collecting visual details about the ships and using large quantities of loitering munitions' to once again, in both physical and psychological generate fear and concern about an impending UAS swarm. One of Iran's commander after unveiling a drone base, said they can launch 60 loitering munitions in a swarm simultaneously from the base, before reloading for the next round. In this day and age, Pakistan should be looking for lethal but low-cost strategies to counter their opponents. A small loitering munition with a weak warhead is very dangerous for a ships sensitive electronics. Communication is not required at all time as image recognition software can allow it to act completely passively. The details of which, you collect when monitoring their ships in peacetime.
> 
> View attachment 838958
> View attachment 838959
> 
> 
> Durability and survivability of inventory cannot be overstated against a superior enemy (on paper). The one thing people fail to consider is both logistics and inventory. Most countries have a very thin inventory of premium weapons before fighting like its the 1914s again. Iran intelligently recognizes the danger of enemy airpower and has buried it's stockpiles in tunnel networks and mountains. Tunnel networks will never bee fully known but the entrances may be found. They would also be vehicle capable and can be safely reloaded underground. The stockpile in one location may be disabled for a period of time, but never destroyed. The launchers are also protected as the network is presumably deep enough to protect from earth penetrators,
> 
> Part of survivability is condensing firepower into a normal truck that can be masked as a civilian truck. Iran has through magic achieved a tri-launch TEL that looks like a normal civilian truck. Short of killing every truck, it will not be possible for the opponent to know if this truck is civilian or military unless it fires. Losing equipment is not like the old days, you cannot just make more anti-shipping missiles and launchers, therefore if your airspace if vulnerable, your main option is to harden to avoid a first-strike catastrophe where your inventory is destroyed. The US no longer confronts Iran inside the PG, because even with their incredible ISR capability, the danger of 10, road-mobile, civilian masked tri-launcher anti-shipping BMs -> 30 missiles salvo, is much too high... among other problems. Taiwan also employs this strategy. Using stationary or mobile civilian shipping containers for anti-shipping. You want to deny India from doing what China wants to do to Taiwan. Full naval blockade. That is their main focus, and they will relentlessly attack your anti-shipping capabilities to do so.
> 
> View attachment 838960
> View attachment 838962
> View attachment 838963
> 
> 
> Note how everything vehicle based is derived under disguise, deception.
> 
> Some of the other strategies are specific to Iran's situations like speed boats these are not really useful for Pakistan and I am no longer sure they are useful for Iran as well. Iran has added suicide UAS on top of the boats to enhance it's swarm capability but this is best utilized in the PG, not in blue waters. Strategies also involved loitering torpedo's and mines but that is again useful for the PG and not for blue waters.
> 
> One of the interesting things the IRGC is doing is building a surface fleet. They are building 3 large catamarans simultaneously, low RCS design, fast and low footprint. Very smooth body structure. It's not clear exactly how they will use them, but it does indicate they are very confident in their A2AD strategy that they can safely operate a fleet of missile-slinging ships with the firepower of a modern corvette instead of several large and thus more vulnerable ones. At the end of the day you still need a Navy, but larger number of smaller ships under the missile umbrella should deny any country from using the sea to their advantage without paying a high price. The PNS Tabuk I see is a good idea and more should be built. Pakistan doesn't need to fight wars 5000km away, it needs power in the Arabian sea to protect its own shipping and it's surrounding areas, and the corvettes should be sufficient in range to do that while also avoiding a blue-water fight as you've pressured their fleet to withdraw far from your borders..


Thank you so much for your detailed response, My budget positive rating ✅

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## _Nabil_

Sainthood 101 said:


> Thank you so much for your detailed response, My budget positive rating ✅


Keep Indians busy and under pressure in Kashmir, dunno why Pakistan droped that card ....


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## Stryker1982

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1519957767313928192
Reference: https://www.farsnews.ir/news/14010206000166/رمزگشایی-عضو-ارشد-حماس-از-عدد-در-سخنان-یحیی-السنوار

"In the first wave, 1111 missiles are to be fired" . Apparently a symbolic number.

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## Messerschmitt

^ Emad




^ Ghadr




^ Kheybar-Shekan - wait, what?

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## Messerschmitt



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## GrandBotBoi

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 841692
> View attachment 841693
> View attachment 841694
> View attachment 841695
> View attachment 841696
> View attachment 841697
> View attachment 841698
> View attachment 841699
> 
> View attachment 841705
> 
> View attachment 841729


First time we've seen Fateh-110A, right?


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## drmeson

Ok Guys ... 3 x solid-fueled stages Sejjil IRBM, estimate the range? Mr. Norbert Brugge thinks it is at least around 3700 KM with CEP of less than 10 m with Salman TVC-powered MaRV.

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## Philip the Arab

drmeson said:


> Ok Guys ... 3 x solid-fueled stages Sejjil IRBM, estimate the range? Mr. Norbert Brugge thinks it is at least around 3700 KM with CEP of less than 10 m with Salman TVC-powered MaRV.


Would be similar to the Israeli/South African RSA-3

Interesting fact is that South Africans gave pure U-235 in exchange for this tech to the Israelis to put their nuclear warheads into. Some of the engineers involved in this program are in the UAE now.

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## Sineva

Well now,this is *VERY* interesting......

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524237466399612930

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## Blue In Green

Sineva said:


> Well now,this is *VERY* interesting......
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524237466399612930



This is what I had some concerns about but I'm glad heavy-hitting, game changing Iranian weapons are making their way into Hezbollah's hands. 

Makes you wonder what else has made it through?

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## Sineva

Blue In Green said:


> Makes you wonder what else has made it through?


Indeed it does.....🤔
I`m pretty sure that that very same question also gives others in the region[and beyond it] the odd sleepless night....

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## Stryker1982

Sineva said:


> Indeed it does.....🤔
> I`m pretty sure that that very same question also gives others in the region[and beyond it] the odd sleepless night....


How to be sure it's Abu-Mahdi, this canisters looks alot like those Anti-shipping trucks with 3 canisters.


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## sanel1412

Stryker1982 said:


> How to be sure it's Abu-Mahdi, this canisters looks alot like those Anti-shipping trucks with 3 canisters.


You can see difference in height, it is almost double size of Noor/Qader.. It is due larger engines bellow missile

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## WudangMaster




----------



## Sineva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525541281832779786Looks to be fitted with an E/O seeker

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## mohsen

In case you wanted to know the export name of Fateh110 in Iraq:

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> In case you wanted to know the export name of Fateh110 in Iraq:


why they claim 700km range ?its 4 time the amount you expect from Fateh 110?


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## mohsen

Hack-Hook said:


> why they claim 700km range ?its 4 time the amount you expect from Fateh 110?


Maybe it's Zolfaghar, or just a wrong number.


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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> Maybe it's Zolfaghar, or just a wrong number.


look at the pointy warhead , It's wrong shape for Zolfaqar , its more like Fateh-313 and Fateh-110


----------



## drmeson

Guys, I will be doing slides on Iran's missile forces. I need to confirm if I am right about the current top-of-the-line missiles that may already have replaced their older versions of family members. 

BM arsenal of Iran, in terms of ranges, operationalized ones are underlined.

Solid Fueled: 3 Staged Sejjil (with Salman) > 2 Staged Sejjil > Kheibar Shikan > Haj Qassem > Dezful > Zolfaghar > Raad-500 > Fateh Mobin > Fateh 313 

Liquid Fuel: Khorramshahr > Emad (Shahab 3 with MaRV, replaces all Shahab-3) > Qiam-2 (replaces Qiam-1) 

Liquid-Solid mixed: Ghadr-H

ASh-BM: Zolfaghar-e-Basir, Hormuz 1 and 2 (Anti Radiation), Persian Gulf

Thoughts?

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## drmeson

drmeson said:


> Guys, I will be doing slides on Iran's missile forces. I need to confirm if I am right about the current top-of-the-line missiles that may already have replaced their older versions of family members.
> 
> BM arsenal of Iran, in terms of ranges, operationalized ones are underlined.
> 
> Solid Fueled: 3 Staged Sejjil (with Salman) > 2 Staged Sejjil > Kheibar Shikan > Haj Qassem > Dezful > Zolfaghar > Raad-500 > Fateh Mobin > Fateh 313
> 
> Liquid Fuel: Khorramshahr > Emad (Shahab 3 with MaRV, replaces all Shahab-3) > Qiam-2 (replaces Qiam-1)
> 
> Liquid-Solid mixed: Ghadr-H
> 
> ASh-BM: Zolfaghar-e-Basir, Hormuz 1 and 2 (Anti Radiation), Persian Gulf
> 
> Thoughts?




Anyone ?


----------



## PDF

Hack-Hook said:


> look at the* pointy* warhead , It's wrong shape for Zolfaqar , its more like Fateh-313 and Fateh-110







On-topic: Isn't Zolfaqar dervied from Fateh 313/110 family?



drmeson said:


> Guys, I will be doing slides on Iran's missile forces. I need to confirm if I am right about the current top-of-the-line missiles that may already have replaced their older versions of family members.
> 
> BM arsenal of Iran, in terms of ranges, operationalized ones are underlined.
> 
> Solid Fueled: 3 Staged Sejjil (with Salman) > 2 Staged Sejjil > Kheibar Shikan > Haj Qassem > Dezful > Zolfaghar > Raad-500 > Fateh Mobin > Fateh 313
> 
> Liquid Fuel: Khorramshahr > Emad (Shahab 3 with MaRV, replaces all Shahab-3) > Qiam-2 (replaces Qiam-1)
> 
> Liquid-Solid mixed: Ghadr-H
> 
> ASh-BM: Zolfaghar-e-Basir, Hormuz 1 and 2 (Anti Radiation), Persian Gulf
> 
> Thoughts?


Can you also share the origins and development of the BMs like OP did in the below thread? It will help understand the missile program better.









Pakistani Ballistic Missiles: Indigenous Content & Development


Pakistani Ballistic Missiles : How much Pakistani are they? "Defense is the right of every country.And the credible capability to defend or deter an enemy attack should be achieved,by any available means." There have been many foreign reports,which claim Pakistani Ballistic missiles to be...



defence.pk


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## drmeson

PDF said:


> On-topic: Isn't Zolfaqar dervied from Fateh 313/110 family?
> 
> 
> Can you also share the origins and development of the BMs like OP did in the below thread? It will help understand the missile program better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani Ballistic Missiles: Indigenous Content & Development
> 
> 
> Pakistani Ballistic Missiles : How much Pakistani are they? "Defense is the right of every country.And the credible capability to defend or deter an enemy attack should be achieved,by any available means." There have been many foreign reports,which claim Pakistani Ballistic missiles to be...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



The biggest marker to guess the origin of a missile is by lengths and diameter of stages and their propulsion. Except for Shahab-1/2 (all in storage now), none of the Iranian current operational arsenals has any foreign origin anymore specifically the Solid fueled MRBMs can not be remotely compared to any foriegn system. Western experts still can not figure out the origin of the Fateh family of missiles (the latest is the narrow slick skip glide vehicle Kheibar Shikar ) and 3 staged Solid fueled IRBM with TVC-MaRV warheads (Sejjil-3). We know why. 

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Sejil-2_LRBM/index.htm

Here I posted extreme details analysis of Iranian Space launching Vehicles (SLVs), one can get the idea of the R&D behind missiles engines produced in Iran.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/operational-space-launching-vehicles-slvs-of-iran.742579/

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## Hack-Hook

PDF said:


> On-topic: Isn't Zolfaqar dervied from Fateh 313/110 family?


Look at the end of the movie




yes its derivative from Fateh-110 and its successor fateh-313 but it has some modification
Fateh-110






Fateh-313





Zoalfaqar

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

These so many fins make missile look ugly.


Hack-Hook said:


> Look at the end of the movie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes its derivative from Fateh-110 and its successor fateh-313 but it has some modification
> Fateh-110
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fateh-313
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zoalfaqar


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## Hack-Hook

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> These so many fins make missile look ugly.


it make sure the missile stick to the ground and don't bounce back

on serious note , those ugly fins are our solution to be able to make our missiles enter through windows

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## PDF

drmeson said:


> The biggest marker to guess the origin of a missile is by lengths and diameter of stages and their propulsion. Except for Shahab-1/2 (all in storage now), none of the Iranian current operational arsenals has any foreign origin anymore specifically the Solid fueled MRBMs can not be remotely compared to any foriegn system. Western experts still can not figure out the origin of the Fateh family of missiles (the latest is the narrow slick skip glide vehicle Kheibar Shikar ) and 3 staged Solid fueled IRBM with TVC-MaRV warheads (Sejjil-3). We know why.
> 
> http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Sejil-2_LRBM/index.htm
> 
> Here I posted extreme details analysis of Iranian Space launching Vehicles (SLVs), one can get the idea of the R&D behind missiles engines produced in Iran.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/operational-space-launching-vehicles-slvs-of-iran.742579/


Does Iran have MiRV capability? and how many missiles are MaRV capable?


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## drmeson

PDF said:


> Does Iran have MiRV capability? and how many missiles are MaRV capable?



Every single one of the current arsenal has a separating warhead-MaRV with demonstrated CEP less than 5 m.


Sejjil-3 (with Salam-TVC) - 3 staged solid-fueled with an apogee of 900 km and range of 3700 km. Our answer to Israeli Jericho 2/3.










Haj Qassem - all solid-fueled separating warhead MaRV with Skip Glide trajectory. Range 1800 km.






Kheibar Shikan- range 1450 km, all solid-fueled with CEP of 5 m. 
This family of missiles is very small in size, uses a composite body to reduce weight and has been demonstrated multiple times to have taken out moving ships in the Persian gulf with TV seeker. 











Khorramshahr, Liquid fueled with ~3000 km range with 1-ton warhead while advertised as having 1.8 tons warhead with 2000 KM to keep in line with Supreme leaders put barrier on ranges (political decision). 






Emad ... 2 staged Liquid fueled with MaRV (replaced all Shahab-3) with a range 1750-2000 km depending upon warhead size. 






Qiam-2. Our workhorse for attacks in the region. Driven from Shahab-2/3 without fins with an MaRV on. Qiam-1 (older version) known as Burkan in possession of Houthis has on multiple dodged the Patriot systems.

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## PDF

drmeson said:


> 3700 km


Isn't 3700 km too much for Israel? I think the missile will not hit Israel but go further at thjs range.


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## drmeson

PDF said:


> Isn't 3700 km too much for Israel? I think the missile will not hit Israel but go further at thjs range.



Missile ranges are controllable depending upon target distance. We also have shorter ranged Quasi Ballistic missiles to target Israel. 

Not to forget Our Cruise missiles and UCAVs.

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## Blue In Green

drmeson said:


> Missile ranges are controllable depending upon target distance. We also have shorter ranged Quasi Ballistic missiles to target Israel.
> 
> Not to forget Our Cruise missiles and UCAVs.



Payload also factors into range.

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## SalarHaqq

PDF said:


> Isn't 3700 km too much for Israel? I think the missile will not hit Israel but go further at thjs range.



The distance between Iran's easternmost point and Tel Aviv is superior to 3600 km.

Longer range means missiles can be fired from all over the national territory, not just from Iran's western regions. Which makes it even harder for the enemy to preemptively suppress mobile TEL's given how these will disperse across a much larger area.

Longer range may also translate into higher velocity upon arrival.

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## Blue In Green

SalarHaqq said:


> The distance between Iran's eastermost point and the zionist entity is superior to 3600 km.
> 
> Longer range means missiles can be fired from everywhere, not just from Iran's western regions. Which makes it even harder for the enemy to preemptively suppress mobile TEL's.
> 
> Longer range may also translate into higher speeds.



I think the debate over whether or not IRGC AEROSPACE MISSILE FORCES can adequately strike all of the Zionist entity is essentially over Salar-jan. The answer is sobering to anyone who wants to acknowledge it. Iranian ability to conduct comprehensive pin-point strikes VIA long-range missiles from Iranian soil is overwhelming. Any strike would be a "combined arms" initiative, operationally utilizing many different weapons from multiple launch points all around the Middle-East. Every conceivable angle of ingress into occupied Palestine will be exploited to its greatest effect. Zio-lands lack of critical strategic-depth will more or less be their greatest crutch. Once they starting getting pushed back. There is virtually nowhere to be pushed back into other than getting on boats/planes and hauling *** to Europe or America.

It'll be one hell of a sight to see all those F-35s, F-16s, F-15s burning in their hangars. Can't emphasize enough just how important it will be for Iran to destroy as much of the IDF air-force as possible since it's their single greatest wartime asset.

Anyways...we are all more or less waiting for the bigger conflict to get started and this entire house of cards falls down on top of their heads once it does. Zio-lands internal security seems to be failing and the oppressed native Arabs/Palestinians (even their own citizens) are fighting back.

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## Abid123

What is the blast radius of a typical Iranian ballistic missile? For example Khorramshahr? I remember reading that a tomahawk cruise missile had a blast radius of 25 meters. The tomahawk has a payload 450 kg. Khorramshahr has a payload of 1800 kg so a blast radius of 100 meters? Or am I wrong?


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## drmeson

Abid123 said:


> What is the blast radius of a typical Iranian ballistic missile? For example Khorramshahr? I remember reading that a tomahawk cruise missile had a blast radius of 25 meters. The tomahawk has a payload 450 kg. Khorramshahr has a payload of 1800 kg so a blast radius of 100 meters? Or am I wrong?



That depends upon the warhead's choice, not the missile vehicle itself. One can use a super-dense thermobaric warhead on a relic Rocket to enhance the blast radius. The missile is just a carrier. IRFC-AF has demonstrated using multiple mission-specific warhead types like cluster munitions, MIRV (3x), deep penetrator etc. There are videos for precision strikes.

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## Arash1991

Abid123 said:


> What is the blast radius of a typical Iranian ballistic missile? For example Khorramshahr? I remember reading that a tomahawk cruise missile had a blast radius of 25 meters. The tomahawk has a payload 450 kg. Khorramshahr has a payload of 1800 kg so a blast radius of 100 meters? Or am I wrong?



*You can calculate it with this formula (Kinetic energy on impact is not included here)
Translated from German Wiki Article About Explosion Power*

Explosive power is a designation for the destructive effect of an explosive. It is often given as TNT equivalent. Correction factors take into account the different explosive power. For example, the energy density of wood is four times that of TNT, but the reaction rate is extremely low.

The higher the pressure differences in the air caused by a blast, the higher the expected damage:

3 mbar: sound pressure level higher than pain threshold of 140 dB.
10 mbar: damage to window panes
35-70 mbar: shattering of window panes
50 mbar: upper limit for reversible damage to living beings
70 mbar: Damage to houses
140 mbar: Collapse of roofs
170 mbar: rupture of eardrums in 1% of exposed persons
200 mbar: Severe damage to steel structures (high-rise buildings)
490 mbar: Overturning of passenger cars
700 mbar: Collapse of residential buildings, rupture of lungs
1400 mbar: Complete destruction
2000 mbar: Death by direct pressure effect in 99 % of the affected persons
The estimation of the range s of a blast with the explosive force M, at which a pressure difference P is still measured, is carried out according to:

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)






where: s = range in m; P = pressure difference in bar; M = TNT mass equivalents in kg.

*DONT FORGET: NEWER IRANIAN MISSILES (WARHEADS) HAVE 2x to 4x TNT Equivalent.*

10 tons of TNT create a pressure difference of more than 350 mbar in a radius of about 100 m. 1 kg of TNT devastates a radius of about 5 m with a pressure difference of more than 280 mbar. The Little Boy atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima in 1945 had an explosive force of 13,000 tons of TNT. The largest man-made explosion, caused by the Tsar bomb, had an explosive force of 57 million tons of TNT.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

I calculated this one time by myself and Destruction blast *radius* of different Iranian missiles was* between 15m and 30m *(all different types with different factors maximum up to 1,6 x TNT because i calculated it years ago.)

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## QWECXZ

drmeson said:


> Sejjil-3 (with Salam-TVC) - 3 staged solid-fueled with an apogee of 900 km and range of 3700 km. Our answer to Israeli Jericho 2/3.


When was Sejjil-3 unveiled?


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## Arash1991

Arash1991 said:


> *You can calculate it with this formula (Kinetic energy on impact is not included here)
> Translated from German Wiki Article About Explosion Power*
> 
> Explosive power is a designation for the destructive effect of an explosive. It is often given as TNT equivalent. Correction factors take into account the different explosive power. For example, the energy density of wood is four times that of TNT, but the reaction rate is extremely low.
> 
> The higher the pressure differences in the air caused by a blast, the higher the expected damage:
> 
> 3 mbar: sound pressure level higher than pain threshold of 140 dB.
> 10 mbar: damage to window panes
> 35-70 mbar: shattering of window panes
> 50 mbar: upper limit for reversible damage to living beings
> 70 mbar: Damage to houses
> 140 mbar: Collapse of roofs
> 170 mbar: rupture of eardrums in 1% of exposed persons
> 200 mbar: Severe damage to steel structures (high-rise buildings)
> 490 mbar: Overturning of passenger cars
> 700 mbar: Collapse of residential buildings, rupture of lungs
> 1400 mbar: Complete destruction
> 2000 mbar: Death by direct pressure effect in 99 % of the affected persons
> The estimation of the range s of a blast with the explosive force M, at which a pressure difference P is still measured, is carried out according to:
> 
> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
> View attachment 848301
> 
> 
> where: s = range in m; P = pressure difference in bar; M = TNT mass equivalents in kg.
> 
> *DONT FORGET: NEWER IRANIAN MISSILES (WARHEADS) HAVE 2x to 4x TNT Equivalent.*
> 
> 10 tons of TNT create a pressure difference of more than 350 mbar in a radius of about 100 m. 1 kg of TNT devastates a radius of about 5 m with a pressure difference of more than 280 mbar. The Little Boy atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima in 1945 had an explosive force of 13,000 tons of TNT. The largest man-made explosion, caused by the Tsar bomb, had an explosive force of 57 million tons of TNT.
> 
> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
> 
> I calculated this one time by myself and Destruction blast *radius* of different Iranian missiles was* between 15m and 30m *(all different types with different factors maximum up to 1,6 x TNT because i calculated it years ago.)



Calculation for different Iranian Missiles in 1.6 times TNT Equivalent explosive on different Warhead weights

*Missile Type falling into this cathegory**Warhead Size in kg**Equivalent TNT**Formula**Destruction RADIUS in meter (Total Destruction of all buildings 1,4 bar)**Destruction RADIUS in meter (99% mortality rate, heavy buildings will be destroyed) *1001,6(1,5*100)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)11,359,82501,6
(1,5*250)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
15,7413,11Fateh 110; 300 km Range
Fateh 313; 500 km Range
Zolfaghar; 700 km Range
Kheyb.shek; 1450 km Range
Hajj Ghassem; 1400km Range)5001,6
(1,5*500)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
19,8316,77Emad
Qiam; 700 - 800km Range
Sejjil; 2000 - 2500 km Range
Shahab 2; 500 km Range
Shahab 1; 300km Range7001,6
(1,5*700)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
22,1818,76Sejjil; 2000 - 2500 km Range
Shahab 2; 500 km Range
Shahab 1; 300km Range10001,6
(1,5*1000)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
24,9821,13Shahab 3; 1300 km Range12001,6
(1,5*1200)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
26,5522,4515001,6
(1,5*1500)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
28,624,18Khorramshahr 2000 - 2400km Range18001,6
(1,5*1800)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
30,3925,7Khorramshahr20001,6
(1,5*2000)^(1/3)*e^(0,9267-0,5112*ln(1,4)+0,0398*(ln(1,4))^2)
31,4826,62

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## drmeson

QWECXZ said:


> When was Sejjil-3 unveiled?





Arash1991 said:


> *You can calculate it with this formula (Kinetic energy on impact is not included here)
> Translated from German Wiki Article About Explosion Power*
> 
> Explosive power is a designation for the destructive effect of an explosive. It is often given as TNT equivalent. Correction factors take into account the different explosive power. For example, the energy density of wood is four times that of TNT, but the reaction rate is extremely low.
> 
> The higher the pressure differences in the air caused by a blast, the higher the expected damage:
> 
> 3 mbar: sound pressure level higher than pain threshold of 140 dB.
> 10 mbar: damage to window panes
> 35-70 mbar: shattering of window panes
> 50 mbar: upper limit for reversible damage to living beings
> 70 mbar: Damage to houses
> 140 mbar: Collapse of roofs
> 170 mbar: rupture of eardrums in 1% of exposed persons
> 200 mbar: Severe damage to steel structures (high-rise buildings)
> 490 mbar: Overturning of passenger cars
> 700 mbar: Collapse of residential buildings, rupture of lungs
> 1400 mbar: Complete destruction
> 2000 mbar: Death by direct pressure effect in 99 % of the affected persons
> The estimation of the range s of a blast with the explosive force M, at which a pressure difference P is still measured, is carried out according to:
> 
> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
> View attachment 848301
> 
> 
> where: s = range in m; P = pressure difference in bar; M = TNT mass equivalents in kg.
> 
> *DONT FORGET: NEWER IRANIAN MISSILES (WARHEADS) HAVE 2x to 4x TNT Equivalent.*
> 
> 10 tons of TNT create a pressure difference of more than 350 mbar in a radius of about 100 m. 1 kg of TNT devastates a radius of about 5 m with a pressure difference of more than 280 mbar. The Little Boy atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima in 1945 had an explosive force of 13,000 tons of TNT. The largest man-made explosion, caused by the Tsar bomb, had an explosive force of 57 million tons of TNT.
> 
> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
> 
> I calculated this one time by myself and Destruction blast *radius* of different Iranian missiles was* between 15m and 30m *(all different types with different factors maximum up to 1,6 x TNT because i calculated it years ago.)



Why are we assuming that a BM like Khorramshahr or Sejjil is carrying obsolete TNT? there are multiple more power yielding warhead choices



QWECXZ said:


> When was Sejjil-3 unveiled?



Tested in Great Prophet Excersize

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Sejil/index.htm

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## QWECXZ

drmeson said:


> Tested in Great Prophet Excersize
> 
> http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Sejil/index.htm


Do you have any photos or videos from the exercise? This is a huge development that went underreported by the media, I guess.


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## drmeson

QWECXZ said:


> Do you have any photos or videos from the exercise? This is a huge development that went underreported by the media, I guess.



Most of these pics are actually from great Prophet exercise videos. They literally showed a separating MaRV Stage being loaded on the 2nd stage which due to dimensions gave Mr. Norbert Brugge (and many other experts) the idea that it is Salam-TVC pretty much like Qassed's third stage. An IRBM-ICBM that can go through mAD shields like a knife through butter. 

Yes its huge but because of mismanagement of information it went noise-less. We don't care, we are not noisy people.

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## Arash1991

drmeson said:


> Why are we assuming that a BM like Khorramshahr or Sejjil is carrying obsolete TNT? there are multiple more power yielding warhead choices



I mentioned that explosive power of any kind of* explosive is calculated in euivalent on TNT*. And I calculated here* with 1,6 times TNT equivalent. *That menas that *every single kilogramm of that explosive is comparable with 1,6 kg of TNT.*
And these values are realistic with modern explosives. Dont expect 3 or 4 times TNT in absolute mass production. *Even if values like 3 or 4 times are common i took pessimistic values wich you can definitly rely on. *

If Iran can modify its BM´s to carry at least 7 tonnes of warhead for a usable range of 1500 km, Iran could carry "Father of all bombs" with more than 44.000 kg TNT equivalent with its missiles. That would mean a Destruction radius of 120 meters. Diameter of 240 meter total destruction. If we want to calculate for heavier destruction rates like concrete buildings and 99% mortality rate than Radius is = 90 meters and circle would be180 meter.

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## drmeson

Arash1991 said:


> I mentioned that explosive power of any kind of* explosive is calculated in euivalent on TNT*. And I calculated here* with 1,6 times TNT equivalent. *That menas that *every single kilogramm of that explosive is comparable with 1,6 kg of TNT.*
> And these values are realistic with modern explosives. Dont expect 3 or 4 times TNT in absolute mass production. *Even if values like 3 or 4 times are common i took pessimistic values wich you can definitly rely on. *
> 
> If Iran can modify its BM´s to carry at least 7 tonnes of warhead for a usable range of 1500 km, Iran could carry "Father of all bombs" with more than 44.000 kg TNT equivalent with its missiles. That would mean a Destruction radius of 120 meters. Diameter of 240 meter total destruction. If we want to calculate for heavier destruction rates like concrete buildings and 99% mortality rate than Radius is = 90 meters and circle would be180 meter.



OK but know this, some of the solid-state research thermobarics have exceeded airblast yield 2.5x that of TNT. Have they gone to bulk production? nobody knows


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## Arash1991

drmeson said:


> OK but know this, some of the solid-state research thermobarics have exceeded airblast yield 2.5x that of TNT. Have they gone to bulk production? nobody knows



I hope so. 2.5 times is very nice. Iran also started massproduction of advanced explosives.(Octogen) In one article I remember i even read a TNT equivalent number but i couldnt remember it. (Somebody maybe have some information?) I remember 10 years ago 1,6 equivalent was a very high standart. Today with Nanotechnology and Advanced Computing & Simulation we have much better output. Of course i really hope that Iran mass produces the 2x or even 4x as a standart.

Here Are some examples of public known non nuclear explosives compared to TNT:

"Relative effectiveness" is the comparision strenght to TNT:











Source: Wikipedia Article: Wikipedia Article


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## SalarHaqq

Arash1991 said:


> *(Kinetic energy on impact is not included here)*



What if it is?


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## Arash1991

SalarHaqq said:


> What if it is?


Destruction range will go up. 
It depends how missile hit its target.Air blast explosion will produce air blast effect wich is good for destruction range. Direct hitmay produce also some destructive energy. Depends on with what speed missile hit its target.

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## Stryker1982

Abid123 said:


> What is the blast radius of a typical Iranian ballistic missile? For example Khorramshahr? I remember reading that a tomahawk cruise missile had a blast radius of 25 meters. The tomahawk has a payload 450 kg. Khorramshahr has a payload of 1800 kg so a blast radius of 100 meters? Or am I wrong?


That's a hard question to answer, but your assumption is probably correct.

The typical HE or themobaric Iranian ballistic missile will probably have a lethal radius of 20m, the shockwave is visible beyond that which can also be lethal but cause small amounts of damage to infrastructure up to 50m (cracking walls, shattering glass, damage to ears, and brain etc..). The damage is not even the explosion as much as it is the kinetic energy that is released that a cruise missile can't match

I don't expect a human to survive 20m from impact unless they have some good cover. With bad cover, the shockwave can be lethal as well at 50m

Khorramshahr with its heavy warhead may not have a large explosion radius, but by virtue of physics the shockwave would be lethal much further than 20m.

You can see the shockwaves illustrated here, go well beyond the borders of the mock facility.



https://imgur.com/a/0HUTpuE

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## drmeson

Arash1991 said:


> I hope so. 2.5 times is very nice. Iran also started massproduction of advanced explosives.(Octogen) In one article I remember i even read a TNT equivalent number but i couldnt remember it. (Somebody maybe have some information?) I remember 10 years ago 1,6 equivalent was a very high standart. Today with Nanotechnology and Advanced Computing & Simulation we have much better output. Of course i really hope that Iran mass produces the 2x or even 4x as a standart.
> 
> Here Are some examples of public known non nuclear explosives compared to TNT:
> 
> "Relative effectiveness" is the comparision strenght to TNT:
> 
> View attachment 848372
> 
> 
> View attachment 848373
> 
> 
> Source: Wikipedia Article: Wikipedia Article



if you google scholar or ScienceDirect articles you might even find some new explosives/warheads that have shown 3-5 times equivalent power of TNT.


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## Arash1991

drmeson said:


> if you google scholar or ScienceDirect articles you might even find some new explosives/warheads that have shown 3-5 times equivalent power of TNT.



Thank you for that Information. Do you have any information about mass productionb capacities of those explosives ? 

I have familiarized myself with the topic for the last few days and found the research very interesting. For example, in 2000 the German Howitzer detonated an explosive of a relatively slow explosion speed. The pressure difference is not particularly high, but the pressure difference lasts much longer, which leads to lung tears and injuries occurring much more frequently and intensely.

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## drmeson

Arash1991 said:


> Thank you for that Information. Do you have any information about mass productionb capacities of those explosives ?
> 
> I have familiarized myself with the topic for the last few days and found the research very interesting. For example, in 2000 the German Howitzer detonated an explosive of a relatively slow explosion speed. The pressure difference is not particularly high, but the pressure difference lasts much longer, which leads to lung tears and injuries occurring much more frequently and intensely.



There are some experimental open research synthesized strained systems that can yield as much as 5-7 times TNT. A Khorramshahr carrying 1.8 tons of such a system will technically be delivering a 9-10 tons TNT equivalent punch.

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## DF41

drmeson said:


> There are some experimental open research synthesized strained systems that can yield as much as 5-7 times TNT. A Khorramshahr carrying 1.8 tons of such a system will technically be delivering a 9-10 tons TNT equivalent punch.




Sound like collaborations with new Chinese Nitrogen anion explosives.

Making the much vaunted American C4 like black gunpowder in comparison




Do not get me wrong. If Iran did that independantly, I applaud even more and much respect for Iran's efforts. 

But collaboration always good, especially against evil foe that can never be trusted and that lie and cheat and steal from everyone .

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## Mahabahu kaunteya

Stryker1982 said:


> That's a hard question to answer, but your assumption is probably correct.
> 
> The typical HE or themobaric Iranian ballistic missile will probably have a lethal radius of 20m, the shockwave is visible beyond that which can also be lethal but cause small amounts of damage to infrastructure up to 50m (cracking walls, shattering glass, damage to ears, and brain etc..). The damage is not even the explosion as much as it is the kinetic energy that is released that a cruise missile can't match
> 
> I don't expect a human to survive 20m from impact unless they have some good cover. With bad cover, the shockwave can be lethal as well at 50m
> 
> Khorramshahr with its heavy warhead may not have a large explosion radius, but by virtue of physics the shockwave would be lethal much further than 20m.
> 
> You can see the shockwaves illustrated here, go well beyond the borders of the mock facility.
> 
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/0HUTpuE


First time saw impact of ballistic missile , god tier video mate 

Please post more of those e

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## Hack-Hook

DF41 said:


> Sound like collaborations with new Chinese Nitrogen anion explosives.
> 
> Making the much vaunted American C4 like black gunpowder in comparison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not get me wrong. If Iran did that independantly, I applaud even more and much respect for Iran's efforts.
> 
> But collaboration always good, especially against evil foe that can never be trusted and that lie and cheat and steal from everyone .


Wonder how much safe the compound is. C4 is as safe as it can be its nearly impossible to explode it accidentally


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## DF41

Hack-Hook said:


> Wonder how much safe the compound is. C4 is as safe as it can be its nearly impossible to explode it accidentally



I do think that new compound might not be safe to use on its own.
Just like nitroglycerin needed to be embedded mixed with Diatomaceous earth to be used safely.

Probably safe when added in small amount to C4 to make much bigger bang and still safe enough to use.

Probably added in trace amount to Chinese MLRS rockets that gave Chinese a longer reach than USA rockets.

Educated guesses on my part to my friends and wild guesses to those still lingering where sun and moon not shine and cockroaches roam.
​

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## DF41

DF41 said:


> Sound like collaborations with new Chinese Nitrogen anion explosives.
> 
> Making the much vaunted American C4 like black gunpowder in comparison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not get me wrong. If Iran did that independantly, I applaud even more and much respect for Iran's efforts.
> 
> But collaboration always good, especially against evil foe that can never be trusted and that lie and cheat and steal from everyone .




Written elsewhere sometime in Nov 2017.  
China kept a lid on this

I only CtrlC-V , so do not ask me technical questions

That was 5 years ago. I guess China got even further than that now.
But when USA want to tango for real, we see real fireworks then.


==================================================================================

ther than nucelar explosives, the most powerful are Semtex, HMX, or even the holy grail Octanitrocubane sought by the West in vain.

China leapt pass that into the N15 kind of explosive 10 to 100 times more powerful than TNT. N15 in propellent form is also used by China in her missiles as I mentioned earlier before.

In Chinese

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd...

中国竟先于美推出高含能材料:重要程度堪比055下水
2017年11月18日

Partial extract via Google translate

Google Translate

In January 2017, China announced a new research result. The world's first all-anion anion salt was successfully synthesized. The related research papers have become China's first research paper in the field of energetic materials published in the international top science "science" , But also allow China to occupy a new generation of ultra-high-energy energetic materials to study the international high ground.






Explosives

As all-nitrogen ultra-high energy material energy up to 10 to 100 times the TNT above, the power comparable to small nuclear bombs, with high density, high energy, clean and detonated pollution-free, nitrogen explosion products, stable and safe. Therefore, the main object of development.

More than 200 years ago, people isolated nitrogen from the air and later discovered nitrogen ions. Various theoretical calculations were made on all-nitrogen derivatives. However, the earliest synthesis was recorded in 1956. Before this century, It is considered a breakthrough and is currently under exploration. Its prospects have attracted the positive research from all countries.





Introduction

At present, one of the hot topics in this field is the synthesis of all-nitrogen anion, which is mainly poor in stability. It is very difficult to obtain all-anion. Originally, the United States first started the experiment and did not expect China to successfully launch the high energy-containing material , And the results achieved mainly in the synthesis of a breakthrough. Chinese researchers creatively used meta-chloroperbenzoic acid and ferrous glycinate as cutting reagents and auxiliary agents, respectively, and successfully prepared the stable all-nitrogen anion salt at room temperature by means of oxidative cleavage for the first time. Thermal analysis results show that this salt decomposition temperature up to 116.8 ℃, has a very good thermal stability, so the world-class performance level, very practical value.





Explosives kits have been in use since practical

The successful preparation of all-nitrogen anion salt is a historic breakthrough and has important scientific significance for its synthesis and application and technological development, that is, one step closer to practical application. The importance of comparable to 055-type flooding, do not think it is explosives, which belongs to the old concept, and now its use is much more than explosives, can also be used for rocket propellant. Maybe later, we can apply on the rocket, greatly improve the rocket's specific impulse, so as to improve the rocket performance. The purpose of the United States study on all-nitrogen ultra-high energy materials is to create a new type of rocket fuel that replaces toxic hydrazine-based rocket fuel.





Rockets can also be used

Some people will compare the new metal hydrogen in the United States. In fact, the all-nitrogen anion salt and metal hydrogen are two different types of ultra-high energy energy-containing materials. The former belongs to chemical synthesis and the latter belongs to physical pressure preparation. Although similar in purpose, In the performance of some higher, but the former is more mature in the application of some, in fact, they have their own advantages and disadvantages, belong to one of the new technologies, different things, can not simply say who is better, there is no substitute for the relationship.

At present, we have prepared a total nitrogen anion salt, almost equal to touch the edge of industrial production, perhaps in the near future can be applied to human production and life.(Author's signature: Military World)

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## skyshadow

A plausible rocket/missile motor test took place between May 27th and June 1st, 2022 at Khojir Missile Complex Iran.
show a visible black scorch mark at the vertical test stand. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532637145734725633

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## yavar



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## Sineva

I`m quietly hoping that this may be the first test of an iranian manufactured rd-250/paektusan icbm class liquid fueled rocket motor.
Fingers crossed...🤞

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## WudangMaster



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## hadi1990

i wonder why most iranian channels and especially those of military interest dont put translation to the videos and documentaries they produce ??!! sadly most of this material and contenty will be less shared and less understood and will have less of impact in world wide media that may support iran, hopfully this note reaches out and we see documentaries with translation from persian

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536761878906515458

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## WudangMaster



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## WudangMaster



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## WudangMaster



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## drmeson

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536761878906515458



One of the most menacing systems in the IRGC arsenal is Khorramshahr with MaRV. Why so?
It has a CEP of less than 5 m as shown in the test video and yet it can carry a 1.8 Ton thermobaric warhead. If it carries a specialized warhead with 3 times TNT yield, a strike of 4 x such systems will destroy an entire military with 22 Tons of TNT yield some 3000 KM away.

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## lydian fall

Must watch

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## drmeson

Sardar330 said:


> Must watch



Sometimes I feel an Israeli adventure will be more useful for Iran then anything else. But jews know this so they wont do anything.


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## drmeson

Guys ... opinion

lets say Israel fires jericho II/III at Natanz

What would be the IRGC's response? Sejjil-II MaRV + Qassem ? or Emad-MaRV + Hoveyzeh LaCM + Shahed Stealth UCAV?


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## lydian fall

drmeson said:


> Guys ... opinion
> 
> lets say Israel fires jericho II/III at Natanz
> 
> What would be the IRGC's response? Sejjil-II MaRV + Qassem ? or Emad-MaRV + Hoveyzeh LaCM + Shahed Stealth UCAV?


Supreme Leader said tel aviv and haifa will be razed to the ground

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## drmeson

Sardar330 said:


> Supreme Leader said tel aviv and haifa will be razed to the ground



Ye but through with BM/CM/UCAV


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## lydian fall

drmeson said:


> Ye but through with BM/CM/UCAV


Leader knows


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## Hack-Hook

Sardar330 said:


> Leader knows


as far as I'm aware he don't get involved in details and is not a fan of micromanaging everything



drmeson said:


> Guys ... opinion
> 
> lets say Israel fires jericho II/III at Natanz
> 
> What would be the IRGC's response? Sejjil-II MaRV + Qassem ? or Emad-MaRV + Hoveyzeh LaCM + Shahed Stealth UCAV?


why fire jericho-3 when Jericho 2 is in range and even why fire it as we knew it cant do anything to Natanz site


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## lydian fall

Hack-Hook said:


> as far as I'm aware he don't get involved in details and is not a fan of micromanaging everything


I wasn't talking to u


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## drmeson

Hack-Hook said:


> as far as I'm aware he don't get involved in details and is not a fan of micromanaging everything
> 
> 
> why fire jericho-3 when Jericho 2 is in range and even why fire it as we knew it cant do anything to Natanz site



Jericho-II/III has the same situation as Sejjil-II/III. Overlapping designations with minimal differences due to single-stage change. 

They missed the bus. They can't do anything about the nuclear programs other than these good-for-nothing sabotage and terrorism.

My point was what would be our choices after that. Sejjil + Emad + Shahed UCAV from the mainland. While further strikes of Qassem/Zolfaghar from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon?


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## Hack-Hook

Sardar330 said:


> I wasn't talking to u


open forum you cant decide who will answer you, 
if you want to talk privately with some one , there is such feature use that

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## lydian fall

Hack-Hook said:


> open forum you cant decide who will answer you,
> if you want to talk privately with some one , there is such feature use that


from now on dont quote me 👈

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

drmeson said:


> One of the most menacing systems in the IRGC arsenal is Khorramshahr with MaRV. Why so?
> It has a CEP of less than 5 m as shown in the test video and yet it can carry a 1.8 Ton thermobaric warhead. If it carries a specialized warhead with 3 times TNT yield, a strike of 4 x such systems will destroy an entire military with 22 Tons of TNT yield some 3000 KM away.


MaRVs are excellent but I want a scramjet/HGV hypersonic weapon so badly 😣

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## Hack-Hook

Sardar330 said:


> from now on dont quote me 👈


you can't dictate me when to comment and where to comment , if you don't like me , the forum has ignore feature , use it.
anymore complain you can take it to the moderators and they decide who is right and who is wrong.



Sardar330 said:


> from now on dont quote me 👈


you can't dictate me when to comment and where to comment , if you don't like me , the forum has ignore feature , use it.
anymore complain you can take it to the moderators and they decide who is right and who is wrong.

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## drmeson

PersianNinja said:


> MaRVs are excellent but I want a scramjet/HGV hypersonic weapon so badly 😣



IRGC's gift of Hypersonic skip glide vehicle for your bday. Reaching you with CEP of 2 m at 4-5 Mach

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## lydian fall

Hack-Hook said:


> you can't dictate me when to comment and where to comment , if you don't like me , the forum has ignore feature , use it.
> anymore complain you can take it to the moderators and they decide who is right and who is wrong.
> 
> 
> you can't dictate me when to comment and where to comment , if you don't like me , the forum has ignore feature , use it.
> anymore complain you can take it to the moderators and they decide who is right and who is wrong.


I don't like the hasbara trolls who try to 'reduce' our capabilities

Btw welcome to my ignore list.

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## Hack-Hook

Sardar330 said:


> I don't like the hasbara trolls who try to 'reduce' our capabilities
> 
> Btw welcome to my ignore list.


as if I care

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## Raghfarm007

Sardar330 said:


> I wasn't talking to u



Saradar jan, please be polite to Hack Hook..... he often annoys me too with his comments, but he is not a bad guy..... just a typical Iranian who has been exposed to western propeganda.

At any rate, this is a forum, and people will have differing opinions, you should not react in a rude manner.

Hack Hook has been a long time member. Please have respect.

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## jauk

Sardar330 said:


> I don't like the hasbara trolls who try to 'reduce' our capabilities
> 
> Btw welcome to my ignore list.


Sardar Jan, he’s almost khodieeh. So A little less pressure on the pedal.

این آقا تقریبا خودیه گرچه یه کم منحرفه ( 😅 ) که تقصیر نداره. اما آگاهه‌ و‌ به صحبتها عمق می‌ده. دست از سرش برذار.

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## _Nabil_

Sardar330 said:


> I don't like the hasbara trolls who try to 'reduce' our capabilities
> 
> Btw welcome to my ignore list.


Ignoring brown man complexed trolls is what everyone should do 👍


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## lydian fall

Raghfarm007 said:


> Saradar jan, please be polite to Hack Hook..... he often annoys me too with his comments, but he is not a bad guy..... just a typical Iranian who has been exposed to western propeganda.
> 
> At any rate, this is a forum, and people will have differing opinions, you should not react in a rude manner.
> 
> Hack Hook has been a long time member. Please have respect.



Well I'm tired of badmouthing against Iranian capabilities 24/7/365

But since he is a compatriot we have to remain silent and ignore him

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## Hack-Hook

Sardar330 said:


> Well I'm tired of badmouthing against Iranian capabilities 24/7/365
> 
> But since he is a compatriot we have to remain silent and ignore him


nonsense and daydream of a fanboy that even can't distinguish the weapons from each other on YouTube is not Iran capabilities . these nonsense instead of showing the real power of Iran force around the world only give it a bad name.

and will never support a feel good video , no matter where it come. always expose it don't care if it come from Iran, Turkey or Israel, and I'm blunt in this matter


jauk said:


> Sardar Jan, he’s almost khodieeh. So A little less pressure on the pedal.
> 
> این آقا تقریبا خودیه گرچه یه کم منحرفه ( 😅 ) که تقصیر نداره. اما آگاهه‌ و‌ به صحبتها عمق می‌ده. دست از سرش برذار.


what can I say ,I'm still not melted in Velayat . by the way in all my post I consider one thing , "will they be able to use this against Iran later or not"

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## drmeson

drmeson said:


> IRGC's gift of Hypersonic skip glide vehicle for your bday. Reaching you with CEP of 2 m at 4-5 Mach
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 855886



Btw, this weapon can be the best carrier for an IRANIAN nuclear warhead. It comes down at ~hypersonic speed, has an impressive range, is very hard to catch because of its small size and separating RV mechanism.

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## drmeson

I will soon do slides on Entire Iranian missile capabilities but I need help in gathering some information ... 

Volunteers, please?


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## Abid123

Stryker1982 said:


> Throughout history the most common reasons for Iranian military defeats have come from playing the game of the enemy. Whether it was Greece or the Mongol, both we tried to fight their game, their strengths and lost and paid a deep price for it. In the case of the Greeks who had better equipment than us, utilizing bronze for their shields while Persians largely had wicker shields, or the Mongols, leaving the fortified cities and fighting them in the open. Terrible.
> 
> Therefore the thought process is not to play the game of the enemy, but to force them to play our game. This is the IRGC thought process. The basis of Iran's naval strategy is A2AD (Anti-access , area denial) and using every available means of technology to enhance it.
> You can't expect Pakistan or Iran to go head-to-head with their opponents in the same game. They will always have more tanks, more tech, more ships, it's just something that has to be accepted at this moment. Aligning your priorities and weapons together is the key rather than just building things that everyone else has or what is "traditional".
> 
> View attachment 838953
> 
> 
> For Iran, we can never compete with NATO or USA with a surface fleet, and I reckon especially in the future, the same will be true with Pakistan and India. The most important part for both countries is to force each respective nation away from it's ports and seas. In the case of Pakistan, you must never ever allow the Indian navy the capacity to blockade all of Pakistan ports. This is extremely detrimental during war time. Just observe Ukraine. The zone of which you want to expand your A2AD is important. In order to protect shipping, Pakistan must develop the capability for land-based anti-shipping at very long ranges.
> 
> View attachment 838956
> *
> View attachment 838957
> *
> 
> Forcing them to dedicate naval assets to protect their oil/gas imports which leaves their navy at risk of missile salvos.
> 
> You want them to fear coming within 700km of your shores. The result of this is 10s of billions of dollars of Indian investment, rendered useless in their role because of their fear of being targeted forcing them to stay back. This range is also strategically important as it cuts of India's oil imports. In the case of Iran; Iran is so adamant about this, they are working on 2000km anti-shipping missiles, we haven't seen videos of it, but its something that is either successfully complete or seriously perused. For instance after the assassination of Soleimani, the US evacuated its surface fleets into the Arabian sea. Why would a superpower do such things when dealing with a country like Iran. Similar strategy employed by China. Forcing the US away from Taiwan and Japan with 2000km range missiles. Even with Chinas expansive blue water capabilities they still invest in this capability of anti-shipping missiles.
> 
> Their are other strategies that fall under the A2AD umbrella. Extensive production and investment into UAVs and both UAV swarms and waves that is being employed by Iran. Use of UAVs to monitor shipping and collecting visual details about the ships and using large quantities of loitering munitions' to once again, in both physical and psychological generate fear and concern about an impending UAS swarm. One of Iran's commander after unveiling a drone base, said they can launch 60 loitering munitions in a swarm simultaneously from the base, before reloading for the next round. In this day and age, Pakistan should be looking for lethal but low-cost strategies to counter their opponents. A small loitering munition with a weak warhead is very dangerous for a ships sensitive electronics. Communication is not required at all time as image recognition software can allow it to act completely passively. The details of which, you collect when monitoring their ships in peacetime.
> 
> View attachment 838958
> View attachment 838959
> 
> 
> Durability and survivability of inventory cannot be overstated against a superior enemy (on paper). The one thing people fail to consider is both logistics and inventory. Most countries have a very thin inventory of premium weapons before fighting like its the 1914s again. Iran intelligently recognizes the danger of enemy airpower and has buried it's stockpiles in tunnel networks and mountains. Tunnel networks will never bee fully known but the entrances may be found. They would also be vehicle capable and can be safely reloaded underground. The stockpile in one location may be disabled for a period of time, but never destroyed. The launchers are also protected as the network is presumably deep enough to protect from earth penetrators,
> 
> Part of survivability is condensing firepower into a normal truck that can be masked as a civilian truck. Iran has through magic achieved a tri-launch TEL that looks like a normal civilian truck. Short of killing every truck, it will not be possible for the opponent to know if this truck is civilian or military unless it fires. Losing equipment is not like the old days, you cannot just make more anti-shipping missiles and launchers, therefore if your airspace if vulnerable, your main option is to harden to avoid a first-strike catastrophe where your inventory is destroyed. The US no longer confronts Iran inside the PG, because even with their incredible ISR capability, the danger of 10, road-mobile, civilian masked tri-launcher anti-shipping BMs -> 30 missiles salvo, is much too high... among other problems. Taiwan also employs this strategy. Using stationary or mobile civilian shipping containers for anti-shipping. You want to deny India from doing what China wants to do to Taiwan. Full naval blockade. That is their main focus, and they will relentlessly attack your anti-shipping capabilities to do so.
> 
> View attachment 838960
> View attachment 838962
> View attachment 838963
> 
> 
> Note how everything vehicle based is derived under disguise, deception.
> 
> Some of the other strategies are specific to Iran's situations like speed boats these are not really useful for Pakistan and I am no longer sure they are useful for Iran as well. Iran has added suicide UAS on top of the boats to enhance it's swarm capability but this is best utilized in the PG, not in blue waters. Strategies also involved loitering torpedo's and mines but that is again useful for the PG and not for blue waters.
> 
> One of the interesting things the IRGC is doing is building a surface fleet. They are building 3 large catamarans simultaneously, low RCS design, fast and low footprint. Very smooth body structure. It's not clear exactly how they will use them, but it does indicate they are very confident in their A2AD strategy that they can safely operate a fleet of missile-slinging ships with the firepower of a modern corvette instead of several large and thus more vulnerable ones. At the end of the day you still need a Navy, but larger number of smaller ships under the missile umbrella should deny any country from using the sea to their advantage without paying a high price. The PNS Tabuk I see is a good idea and more should be built. Pakistan doesn't need to fight wars 5000km away, it needs power in the Arabian sea to protect its own shipping and it's surrounding areas, and the corvettes should be sufficient in range to do that while also avoiding a blue-water fight as you've pressured their fleet to withdraw far from your borders..


Take my "poor man" rating ✅

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## drmeson

..............................................................









..................................................................

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## WudangMaster



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## drmeson

My suspicion is that next, we are seeing Kheibar Shikan elongated to Sejjil's range with a <2 m CEP.

A near or almost HGV separating warhead at MRBM/IRBM ranges.

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## drmeson

drmeson said:


> My suspicion is that next, we are seeing Kheibar Shikan elongated to Sejjil's range with a <2 m CEP.
> 
> A near or almost HGV separating warhead at MRBM/IRBM ranges.



Which will be the eventual retirement of the Sejjil-2 system. Zoljanah SLV or Sejjil-II with Salman TVC are already IRBM/ICBM designs. 

Iranian missile forces in the future will look like this 

Long range IRBM/ICBM and CM
- Sejjil-III (3500-4500)
- KhorramShahr-II (3000 km)
- Kheibar Shikan SGV/HGV (1800-2400 km)
- Hoveyzeh CM (~2000)

Med Range
-Zolfagahar/Dezful with Raad-500 tech (1000 km)
-Emad MaRV (1700 KM)

AShCM + AShBM
- Khalije Fars and Zolfagahar AShBM
- AbuMehdi AShCM (1000 km)
- Hormuz I/II Anti-radiation system

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544983622201090048

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544990114161500160


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544632108068519936

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## drmeson

Sayyad-4 has a Surface to air range of 200-230 KM at 6.8-8 Mach with TVC maneuverability, Midcourse SARH datalink, and ARH terminal guidance.

It's a monster to deal with for enemy aircraft. 75% of the IRIAF interception job will be done by these AMBUSH SAM systems, rest 25 % will be the job some 200 x Interceptor force of F-14AM + MIG29 + KOWSAR-I/II

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## drmeson

IISS estimates Khorramshahr-2 with a 0.5 Ton warhead and an MaRV reaches ~3200 KM for a CEP of <5-10 m.

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## sanel1412

drmeson said:


> Sayyad-4 has a Surface to air range of 200-230 KM at 6.8-8 Mach with TVC maneuverability, Midcourse SARH datalink, and ARH terminal guidance.
> 
> It's a monster to deal with for enemy aircraft. 75% of the IRIAF interception job will be done by these AMBUSH SAM systems, rest 25 % will be the job some 200 x Interceptor force of F-14AM + MIG29 + KOWSAR-I/II


Missile cant have SARH data link, because SARH has nothing to do with data link, SARH is bistatic guidance arrangement, you have one radar with one transmitter and 2 anntenas with 2 recivers, one in missile and one in aircraft(or ground Sam) it can be SARH or it can be ARH, not both, every ARH has midcourse update because radar in missile has not range to cover all its range. In SARH, aitcraft or ground radar, transmit signal while both, missile and ground radar/aitcraft recive it, that is why name is semi active, because missile doesnt need any connection with aircrafts as Long it recive bounced signal, SO it has little autonomy... ARH and SARH have all multi mode guidance.. AiM54 has 3 modes.. 1.countinous wave ,2 Full active homing and 3. mid course update + ARH for Long ranges.. But SARH is completely different arrangement, it can work in bistatic mode or Countinous wave, there is also Radio Command, that is also homing all the way to target. I saw multiple guidance for almost all Iranian AD, some have backup terminal guidance Like Iranian AShM with ARH guidance, they add IR terminal seeker as backup, but Just for better understanding I explained difference since I see many People mix it due its name

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## Muhammed45

drmeson said:


> IISS estimates Khorramshahr-2 with a 0.5 Ton warhead and an MaRV reaches ~3200 KM for a CEP of <5-10 m.
> 
> View attachment 860110


How about an 200 Kg warhead? I guess a warhead of 100 Kg full of enriched Uranium beside electronic and other requirements weighing and other 100 Kg can turn into a liquid fuel ICBM. In case Washington wants to be nasty with us. 


The same goes about Sejjil family of satellite carriers. Those light cubesats and other experimental ones which are carried into LEO and near LEO orbits are our potential ICBMs needing a small engine for instant manuever in space. 

Not to mention that monkey which was sent into space and returned safely, introduced Iranian capability of sending anything inside small Package to any spot on earth precisely.


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## Hack-Hook

Muhammed45 said:


> How about an 200 Kg warhead? I guess a warhead of 100 Kg full of enriched Uranium beside electronic and other requirements weighing and other 100 Kg can turn into a liquid fuel ICBM. In case Washington wants to be nasty with us.
> 
> 
> The same goes about Sejjil family of satellite carriers. Those light cubesats and other experimental ones which are carried into LEO and near LEO orbits are our potential ICBMs needing a small engine for instant manuever in space.
> 
> Not to mention that monkey which was sent into space and returned safely, introduced Iranian capability of sending anything inside small Package to any spot on earth precisely.


the smallest gun type bomb is about 1.5t which is mark - 11 bunker buster (25-30kt yeald)
but let just say if we want to add nuclear artillery to the list then we have 110kg w33 artillery with 5-10kt yeald (there was an advanced version of it with 40kt yeald)

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546087263385358336

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## mohsen

New level of desperation in Israel

The red carpet and AD missiles!

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## Hack-Hook

mohsen said:


> New level of desperation in Israel
> 
> The red carpet and AD missiles!


another Israeli innovation  
by the way that iron dome have tendency for firing for the fun of it . it would be hilarious if it do this in front of the guests

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

Hack-Hook said:


> another Israeli innovation
> by the way that iron dome have tendency for firing for the fun of it . it would be hilarious if it do this in front of the guests


Imagine if it shot down air force one, kek.

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## Sineva

New missile canisters and a new previously unseen missile

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547877877118410754

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## thesaint

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549018927858171906

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## drmeson



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## Stryker1982

Help me understand this picture.

So each hole as 2 firing portals?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548983811324747776

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## Sineva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549011106089295872

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## Sineva



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## Blue In Green

Sineva said:


>



Really is something isn't it? 

Thanks for the post Sineva!

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550561180103905280

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550561187884318720

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550561180103905280
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550561187884318720


Not sure if this was covered earlier, but this is very good to hear. 

Confirms that Fath is used as a air-launched BM, similar to the Israeli Rampage.
As we expected, Ya-Ali is used as a ALCM. 
Also indicates that Fath's air-launched version was developed in 2018, and carried by Su-22/24. 

So yeah, IRGC-Airforce is still a capable bomber force.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549276674839248898

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549276674839248898


Here's the thing, from the location of these bases, Emad would not reach Israel would it? If you assume 1650km for Emad, or 2000km in any case it is too far

This seems more intended to target USAF in any part of Saudi Arabia, or anything really in the whole Arabian Peninsula. I initially thought it was mostly for Israel

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## Messerschmitt

Stryker1982 said:


> Here's the thing, from the location of these bases, Emad would not reach Israel would it? If you assume 1650km for Emad, or 2000km in any case it is too far
> 
> This seems more intended to target USAF in any part of Saudi Arabia, or anything really in the whole Arabian Peninsula. I initially thought it was mostly for Israel




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550820187896791041

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550820187896791041


I see, great tweet.

Alot more investment it seems to going South rather than westwards with these new bases

Might be in the Iranian calculus that any conflict with Israel would likely involve the US eventually, and so the South is actually more important than the west considering Hezbollah would be doing most of the leg work anyways.

So with the new style of bases, their can be a salvo of 320 theater BMs within a very short time frame. Excluding the other bases, I think this gives a pretty good indication of the number of theater BMs Iran has or is planning to have in inventory and it is certainly in the 5 figures.

You only build this kind of fire rate if you have alot of inventory that you need to use, but current methods are too slow

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554166139269386241

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## jauk

Stryker1982 said:


> Here's the thing, from the location of these bases, Emad would not reach Israel would it? If you assume 1650km for Emad, or 2000km in any case it is too far
> 
> This seems more intended to target USAF in any part of Saudi Arabia, or anything really in the whole Arabian Peninsula. I initially thought it was mostly for Israel


Iran's strategy has always been chopping off the 'head of the octopus'. Israel is incidental.

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

jauk said:


> Iran's strategy has always been chopping off the 'head of the octopus'. Israel is incidental.


This particular octopus is three-headed - 🇺🇸, 🇮🇱 and 🇸🇦.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554431018630791168

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555179723398987776

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## thesaint

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555165480071168001

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## Flotilla

What´s about making inflatable concrete shelters?.
It is a kind of infatable shelter that can be covered by one or two layers of concrete.
IRGC can build dozens of those kinds of shelters in weeks to complement the undeground bases. Those can be even built in series and then deployed in remote areas and cover up easily with dust or sand.
Inflatable concrete shelters

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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554431018630791168


So much firepower packed in the South.

USAF and Gulf air defences won't be able to cope with this. High-res satelltiate that will be coming online soon is so essential to foil any trickery/deception methods, and located AD batteries.

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## WudangMaster



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## WudangMaster

At around 6 min, the narrator mentions this forum and uses our discussions as a reference regarding the Dehlavieh missile.

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## Hack-Hook

WudangMaster said:


> At around 6 min, the narrator mentions this forum and uses our discussions as a reference regarding the Dehlavieh missile.


wonder which is better to attack enemy tanks , dehlavieh or Almas , it seems we opted on Almas and azaraksh for UAVs and Toofan for ground forces . didn't see dehlavieh to be mainstream in any branches, in fact i had seen it more at the hand of Iranian proxies than Iranian forces , wonder why.

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## Sineva

Hack-Hook said:


> wonder which is better to attack enemy tanks , dehlavieh or Almas , it seems we opted on Almas and azaraksh for UAVs and Toofan for ground forces . didn't see dehlavieh to be mainstream in any branches, in fact i had seen it more at the hand of Iranian proxies than Iranian forces , wonder why.


Almas has top attack capability which not only allows you to target one of the weakest parts of the tank ie the turret top where any penetration stands a very good chance of at least incapacitating or even killing the turret crew,not to mention its loal capability as well. 
iran still has a veritable sh!t load of toophans,also the system is as bulky and heavy as hell so its not well suited to proxy/auxiliary forces that may need to shoot and scoot quickly.
The tow/toophan may be "man portable" in theory,but its the kornet/dehlavie thats actually man portable in reality.

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## Hack-Hook

Sineva said:


> The tow/toophan may be "man portable" in theory,but its the kornet/dehlavie thats actually man portable in reality.


well recent trend is this formation.










its years i didn't see them carried by troopers
to be honest dehlavieh is also bulky and not suitable for troop in my mind, interestingly 5 year ago we build an light vehicle equipped with anti tank system called Pirooz that use 4x Dehlavieh but i didn't see it in use

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## Stryker1982

The reason US doesn't attack Iran from its bases in the region. Summarized in a single photo. This but 10x worse for the world to see.

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## GrandBotBoi

Hack-Hook said:


> well recent trend is this formation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its years i didn't see them carried by troopers
> to be honest dehlavieh is also bulky and not suitable for troop in my mind, interestingly 5 year ago we build an light vehicle equipped with anti tank system called Pirooz that use 4x Dehlavieh but i didn't see it in use


Pirooz entered service around this year

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## Hack-Hook

GrandBotBoi said:


> Pirooz entered service around this year


very limited number and the launcher reduced from 4 to 2


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## GrandBotBoi

Hack-Hook said:


> very limited number and the launcher reduced from 4 to 2


Not really. Only 2 launchers we've seen had 2 missiles, and that's only because the other 2 weren't installed

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## Hack-Hook

GrandBotBoi said:


> Not really. Only 2 launchers we've seen had 2 missiles, and that's only because the other 2 weren't installed


we saw the poster of the system with 4, but the actual system with 2.
and why not install the other two. you think if they don't install it eigh now ,hey will install it later in battle field . since when they did that , what you see now is what you get

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498355267158880261by the way i cant see any mounting point for another two


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## GrandBotBoi

Hack-Hook said:


> we saw the poster of the system with 4, but the actual system with 2.
> and why not install the other two. you think if they don't install it eigh now ,hey will install it later in battle field . since when they did that , what you see now is what you get
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498355267158880261by the way i cant see any mounting point for another two


Right here, circled is the bottom rail for a launcher 




Picture 2-4, with all 4 launchers

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## SalarHaqq

Hack-Hook said:


> since when they did that , what you see now is what you get



They do it all the time for a whole bunch of systems, notably SAM canisters.

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## Stryker1982

Iran builds a 6 launcher battlefield rocket disguised as a white civilian truck at a fraction of the cost, but HIMARS is some super weapon never seen before.

While you have to hide a HIMARS under bridges, vegetation, or other forms of concealment, constantly! You can literally part this truck in the side of a road or a parking lot in plain-view right in front of recon, and satellites and it will avoid targeting and destruction.

In terms of pure practicality, this Fath launcher is better. Most countries have 100,000s or millions of trucks in circulation, if a country wishes to targeted every truck in existence in a country, it simply can't wage war.

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## Hack-Hook

Stryker1982 said:


> Iran builds a 6 launcher battlefield rocket disguised as a white civilian truck at a fraction of the cost, but HIMARS is some super weapon never seen before.
> 
> While you have to hide a HIMARS under bridges, vegetation, or other forms of concealment, constantly! You can literally part this truck in the side of a road or a parking lot in plain-view right in front of recon, and satellites and it will avoid targeting and destruction.
> 
> In terms of pure practicality, this Fath launcher is better. Most countries have 100,000s or millions of trucks in circulation, if a country wishes to targeted every truck in existence in a country, it simply can't wage war.
> View attachment 871128


well I've heard Holy M142 HIMARS have rockets with the range of 150 and 300km . also i have heard only one of them can stop 7 nation army

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Iran builds a 6 launcher battlefield rocket disguised as a white civilian truck at a fraction of the cost, but HIMARS is some super weapon never seen before.
> 
> While you have to hide a HIMARS under bridges, vegetation, or other forms of concealment, constantly! You can literally part this truck in the side of a road or a parking lot in plain-view right in front of recon, and satellites and it will avoid targeting and destruction.
> 
> In terms of pure practicality, this Fath launcher is better. Most countries have 100,000s or millions of trucks in circulation, if a country wishes to targeted every truck in existence in a country, it simply can't wage war.
> View attachment 871128


Thats pretty clever. Something the Ukrainians can use. Considering the Russians already have a hard time finding the HIMARS, this could really help.



Hack-Hook said:


> well I've heard Holy M142 HIMARS have rockets with the range of 150 and 300km . also i have heard only one of them can stop 7 nation army


150km to 500+km in near future.

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## Hack-Hook

Oldman1 said:


> Thats pretty clever. Something the Ukrainians can use. Considering the Russians already have a hard time finding the HIMARS, this could really help.
> 
> 
> 150km to 500+km in near future.


yes but the larger the range the less the number of missile it carry . if i'm not wrong it only carry 3 missile when it uses those 300km range missiles . wonder if it reduce to 2 if they use 500+km missiles

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## Oldman1

Hack-Hook said:


> yes but the larger the range the less the number of missile it carry . if i'm not wrong it only carry 3 missile when it uses those 300km range missiles . wonder if it reduce to 2 if they use 500+km missiles


Actually the missiles are smaller than the ATACMS in terms of diameter. They can fit two in the HIMARS and 4 in M270s while with ATACMS it was 1 for HIMARS and 2 for M270s.

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## Hack-Hook

Oldman1 said:


> Actually the missiles are smaller than the ATACMS in terms of diameter. They can fit two in the HIMARS and 4 in M270s while with ATACMS it was 1 for HIMARS and 2 for M270s.


well guess that would be the natural way things supposed to be


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## Oldman1

Hack-Hook said:


> well guess that would be the natural way things supposed to be


Indeed.

@Hack-Hook 
They also planning to get the missiles that were originally 499km range (limited because of the INF Treaty) to close to 800km while still same body. So even though the PRSM is smaller than the ATACMS, can still fly further.


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## Hack-Hook

Oldman1 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> @Hack-Hook
> They also planning to get the missiles that were originally 499km range (limited because of the INF Treaty) to close to 800km while still same body. So even though the PRSM is smaller than the ATACMS, can still fly further.


probably the wonder of new and lighter material in designing the body . just how the same size kheybar-shekan have 4 time the range of fateh-313 and its launcher can accommodate 2 of them instead of one

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## Oldman1

Hack-Hook said:


> probably the wonder of new and lighter material in designing the body . just how the same size kheybar-shekan have 4 time the range of fateh-313 and its launcher can accommodate 2 of them instead of one


Its mostly the engine. Kind of like the JASSM missile which was around 300k range but now it up to 1000km range. In future they want to get it up to 2000km range while still same body. In my mind, I would like an extended fuselage version of those missiles that would increase the range more than what the limitations of the body. 13 feet long PRSM missile that can go only 800km when if you double it's length with more with fuel added, can get it up to 2000km or more. Same for the JASSM. But it was mean for launching on small aircraft like the F-16s. Who knows maybe we will see a 20 feet long version of the JASSM.

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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Thats pretty clever. Something the Ukrainians can use. Considering the Russians already have a hard time finding the HIMARS, this could really help.


Their is a moralistic argument to make, with regards to disguising military as civilian, and risk getting civilians being targeted, but I think in terms of pure practicality, it would make for a better system (assuming same performance) for countries that are operating defensively, and who are dealing with a more advanced adversary. Naturally, I don't see an advantage for the US to convert their equipment with that disguise in mind, as it's pointless.

Indeed, Ukraine could use things like that, and we see Taiwan also employing these techniques with regards to their ground attack systems and air defence. Although, we haven't really seen much evidence Russia has been able to locate destroy these HIMARs launchers at all anyways lol.

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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> Its mostly the engine. Kind of like the JASSM missile which was around 300k range but now it up to 1000km range. In future they want to get it up to 2000km range while still same body. In my mind, I would like an extended fuselage version of those missiles that would increase the range more than what the limitations of the body. 13 feet long PRSM missile that can go only 800km when if you double it's length with more with fuel added, can get it up to 2000km or more. Same for the JASSM. But it was mean for launching on small aircraft like the F-16s. Who knows maybe we will see a 20 feet long version of the JASSM.


If they get models that go to 2000km, I wonder what the purpose of Tomohawks become, if not totally phased out? JASSM can do everything Tomahawk can do, but better, if not hindered by range.

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## Joe_Adam

Stryker1982 said:


> If they get models that go to 2000km, I wonder what the purpose of Tomohawks become, if not totally phased out? JASSM can do everything Tomahawk can do, but better, if not hindered by range.


Day dreaming of sort . . . USA has a big mouth, too much talk about non existing useless Hi-Tech junk, and yet, they lose every war they start. Ironic . .

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560577489906180096

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560577489906180096


If North Korea can transfer their newly acquired ampoulization technology (basically allowing them to store fuel and keep the rockets ready to launch at moment's notice, even if lying inert for years in silos), then it will be a huge bonus.

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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> If they get models that go to 2000km, I wonder what the purpose of Tomohawks become, if not totally phased out? JASSM can do everything Tomahawk can do, but better, if not hindered by range.


They will keep the Tomahawks in stock since they are still useful but will end production if in theory JASSM was the new Tomahawk.



Stryker1982 said:


> Their is a moralistic argument to make, with regards to disguising military as civilian, and risk getting civilians being targeted, but I think in terms of pure practicality, it would make for a better system (assuming same performance) for countries that are operating defensively, and who are dealing with a more advanced adversary. Naturally, I don't see an advantage for the US to convert their equipment with that disguise in mind, as it's pointless.
> 
> Indeed, Ukraine could use things like that, and we see Taiwan also employing these techniques with regards to their ground attack systems and air defence. Although, we haven't really seen much evidence Russia has been able to locate destroy these HIMARs launchers at all anyways lol.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560897121879859201
As you can see why it needs to be disguised. Also as you mentioned in your previous post, the Russians would have waste so much ammo just trying to destroy every vehicle that looks like HIMARS in disguise.


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## Stryker1982

Oldman1 said:


> the Russians would have waste so much ammo just trying to destroy every vehicle that looks like HIMARS in disguise.


Yes, ammo that they also do not have.

Either they have to expend a whole Iskander missile to immediately destroy the HIMARs as soon as it is spotted and stationary.
Or attack it from the air of which they do not have many precision bombs anyways and are barely running sorties.

UAV based munitions are also not commonly used, we see some videos come out but they are just a few for a war scale this big, their should be several 100s of drone strikes and air strikes each week (at minimum), but we are not seeing that. If that was the case, without big inventory stocks would run out fast as well.

That whole Iran-UAV news may also be completely wrong. It would help them alot if it is true. Russia is just going to have to absorb this problem, which I will assume will only get worse especially if certain other missiles start to be transfered, and woe to Russia if this F-16 training is complete and actually followed through by the US (with HARM loadout), and they also train them on PAC-2/3 systems.

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## GrandBotBoi

Oldman1 said:


> Thats pretty clever. Something the Ukrainians can use. Considering the Russians already have a hard time finding the HIMARS, this could really help.
> 
> 
> 150km to 500+km in near future.


Lol no. 500km is possible max range for PrSM which is still under development. No HIMARS rocket in service can surpass 100km

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## DF41

Joe_Adam said:


> Day dreaming of sort . . . USA has a big mouth, too much talk about non existing useless Hi-Tech junk, and yet, they lose every war they start. Ironic . .





Give Murica some respect please!

Murica did not lose every war  

I believe Murica won resounding victories against Grenada and Panama and Nicaragua 

Go check that out if you do not trust my word 

Murica also decent enough not to wage military war on Vatican and Principality of Sealand 
or they will add even more to their military victories to compensate their losing to goat and sheep herders of Afghanistan and Somalia and so many many many other fiascos that they engaged in

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## Stryker1982

What do you think is the reason why IRIAF mountain base has concrete walls, and roofs while we see IRGC bases just use the natural rock of the mountain


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## Stryker1982

Iranian ministry of defense cruise missile launcher In the form of a commercial truck (according to the telegram channel)

@Oldman1 figured you might be curious at how these systems can be disguised.

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## lydian fall



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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> View attachment 873787
> 
> 
> 
> Iranian ministry of defense cruise missile launcher In the form of a commercial truck (according to the telegram channel)
> 
> @Oldman1 figured you might be curious at how these systems can be disguised.


Its a very good disguise!



GrandBotBoi said:


> Lol no. 500km is possible max range for PrSM which is still under development. No HIMARS rocket in service can surpass 100km


500km was the max range allowed under the INF Treaty which the U.S. has pulled out. Now its 500 + km range. They already tested it where it went beyond that limit. Now they envision making it way further than that. The GLMRS ER will have 150km that will be introduced in near future and around 200km further years after.


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## Oldman1

Stryker1982 said:


> Yes, ammo that they also do not have.
> 
> Either they have to expend a whole Iskander missile to immediately destroy the HIMARs as soon as it is spotted and stationary.
> Or attack it from the air of which they do not have many precision bombs anyways and are barely running sorties.
> 
> UAV based munitions are also not commonly used, we see some videos come out but they are just a few for a war scale this big, their should be several 100s of drone strikes and air strikes each week (at minimum), but we are not seeing that. If that was the case, without big inventory stocks would run out fast as well.
> 
> That whole Iran-UAV news may also be completely wrong. It would help them alot if it is true. Russia is just going to have to absorb this problem, which I will assume will only get worse especially if certain other missiles start to be transfered, and woe to Russia if this F-16 training is complete and actually followed through by the US (with HARM loadout), and they also train them on PAC-2/3 systems.


As we saw the Russians recently transferred their S300 battery from Syria to Ukraine to replace their losses. I didn't think it was that bad.


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## lydian fall



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567531423162155008

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## WudangMaster

Sardar330 said:


>


About 4-5 channels now in the past few months along with weekly discussions with Mr. Azarmehr, youtube is becoming a nice go to place for reliable info. Like and subscribe to these channels folks.

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## lydian fall

WudangMaster said:


> About 4-5 channels now in the past few months along with weekly discussions with Mr. Azarmehr, youtube is becoming a nice go to place for reliable info. Like and subscribe to these channels folks.


Sure bro.

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568998127226568707

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## shadihassan28

Has there been photos of the fateh 360 missile


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## Stryker1982

shadihassan28 said:


> Has there been photos of the fateh 360 missile








Nothing super special. Just a short range battlefield tactical missile. Can't guess the range, but it seems like a smaller version of the original Fath missile, probably under 150km(?)

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## mohsen

Such an insult, comparing American junk HIMARS with Iranian Fat'h360 missile system. even comparing it with BM120 missile system was an insult.









Iran’s new Fath 360 looks and acts like a HIMARS


Iran tested this month its indigenously-produced Fath 360 satellite-guided ballistic missile during military exercises, an apparent bid to match America’s High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIM…




asiatimes.com

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## shadihassan28

Stryker1982 said:


> View attachment 878974
> 
> 
> Nothing super special. Just a short range battlefield tactical missile. Can't guess the range, but it seems like a smaller version of the original Fath missile, probably under 150km(?)


Well either way seems like a huge upgrade from fajr rocket launcher looks pretty sweet Iran has definitely come a long way

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

Stryker1982 said:


> View attachment 878974
> 
> 
> Nothing super special. Just a short range battlefield tactical missile. Can't guess the range, but it seems like a smaller version of the original Fath missile, probably under 150km(?)


Any infographic detailing the dimensions and specifications?


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572537495929393152






👀

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## raptor22

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572537495929393152
> View attachment 881407
> 
> 
> 👀


Iran must learn from Yemen, 8 years and this huge leap in military ... missile, drones and etc,,,, it took us 4 decades to build Kheibar Sheken but for them less than a decade ....

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## QWECXZ

raptor22 said:


> Iran must learn from Yemen, 8 years and this huge leap in military ... missile, drones and etc,,,, it took us 4 decades to build Kheibar Sheken but for them less than a decade ....


Who do you think has taught them to build these missiles in the first place?

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## raptor22

QWECXZ said:


> Who do you think has taught them to build these missiles in the first place?


Are you serious?

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## QWECXZ

raptor22 said:


> Are you serious?


Do you seriously think Yemenis have built these missiles without ToT from Iran?

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## raptor22

QWECXZ said:


> Do you seriously think Yemenis have built these missiles without ToT from Iran?








That's called sarcasm ...

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## QWECXZ

raptor22 said:


> View attachment 881424
> 
> 
> That's called sarcasm ...


Poor punctuation then. 
Your initial comment didn't sound sarcastic. But OK. xD

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## jauk

raptor22 said:


> Iran must learn from Yemen, 8 years and this huge leap in military ... missile, drones and etc,,,, it took us 4 decades to build Kheibar Sheken but for them less than a decade ....


. Finally got it. That said, we must give the Yeminis much credit. Good for them.

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## raptor22

jauk said:


> . Finally got it. That said, we must give the Yeminis much credit. Good for them.


And all these progress while they've been engaged in a bloody war all this time .... kudos to them ...

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## Surenas

Missile 358 in Yemen:

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## Hack-Hook

Surenas said:


> Missile 358 in Yemen:


come on don't underestimate Yemen Achievement , its Saghar-1 
you see they are not even the same color

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## Stryker1982

Surenas said:


> Missile 358 in Yemen:


Looks like the US Naval blockade is going well.

Now guess how well those Israeli airstrikes are useful.







Now one might see why those airstrikes are completely ignored.

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## Sineva

And heres something new....




It doesnt look to be based on the guided versions of fajr 4 or 5.

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## drmeson

Saudis/Emiratis can literally kiss the idea of defeating Houthis a goodbye. They are Hezbollah 2.0 now. What a payback for Syria.

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## Stryker1982

New missile just dropped formally.

Although, you can tell it is a* Burkan-3* which we saw years ago in Yemen








Range taken to 1400km, essentially Qiam is upgraded to higher rangers, enough to reach Israel now, which is the backbone of the IRGC-AF missile corps.

Qiam -1 : 800km
Qiam 2: 1000m
Qiam 3 (Rezvan) : 1400km

I've seen this missile before in Yemen, have video evidence it can outspeeds and defeats Patriot batteries

*Edit*: One thing to note the difference between this and Burkhan-3 can be seen in the warhead, it is not the same warhead shape but looks similar. Bi-conic.

Single missile fired into the a heavy Missile AD zone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370109088592461827

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572859541221707776

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572857475782549505

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## mohsen

Iran should file a copyright infringement complaint against Yemenis

Bad Yemenis!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572539762564804610

P.S
After we win the court, they have to launch all of their missiles at the area that we define.

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## Stryker1982

So how does the terminal guidance occur with this warhead?

No surface controls, or am I missing something?


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## Messerschmitt



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## Mehdipersian

‌Rezwan missile
8mach speed!!

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## jauk

drmeson said:


> Saudis/Emiratis can literally kiss the idea of defeating Houthis a goodbye. They are Hezbollah 2.0 now. What a payback for Syria.


...and uh let's not forget the Hold Defense.


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## drmeson

jauk said:


> ...and uh let's not forget the Hold Defense.



also tells us how Missile based deterence > AF


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## Stryker1982

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 881767
> View attachment 881768
> View attachment 881769
> View attachment 881770
> View attachment 881771
> View attachment 881772
> View attachment 881773
> View attachment 881774
> View attachment 881775
> View attachment 881776
> View attachment 881777
> View attachment 881778


Nice highresolution pictures, but on TV it looks like 360p garbage. I hate media in Iran more than anything, most stupid, incompetent civilian sector in the country. Especially in the military field they make alot of simple mistakes

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## Sineva

Heres a nice close up of this missile+booster

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## tsunset

Are these Fath-360 launchers? Used against Komala group today.

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## Iranitaakharin

tsunset said:


> Are these Fath-360 launchers? Used against Komala group today.


No. Here are a few photos for reference.

I believe this is the BM-120. The range makes sense and it looks more alike.

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## Mehdipersian

Fath missile
First usage against terrorists in iraqi Kurdistan

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## tsunset

More footage 



 Fath launchers are used again

*Official IRGC statement:*

The attacks will continue until the headquarters of the terrorist groups are dismantled

Regarding the inattention of the authorities of the northern region of Iraq to the warnings to dismantle the activities of terrorist groups and attack the border areas of Iran and also as well as supporting the recent riots, the soldiers of the Hamza Seyyed al-Shohda base of the IRGC ground forces started their operations towards their headquarters and deployment centers in parts of the region

This operation will continue until the threat is effectively removed and the headquarters of the terrorist groups are dismantled and the authorities of the region resolutely fulfill their obligations and responsibilities.

*Update:*

IRGC attacked Kurdish terrorists party in the two regions of: Koysanjaq near Erbil and the city of Alton Kopri near Kirkuk.

At least 13 people died and _58 _wounded in total attacks by Iran on the Kurdistan Region

14 wounded and 4 died in Koysanjaq

14 wounded and 3 in Altun Kupri

Certainly, the actual number of casualties is much higher than the mentioned numbers, and the Kurdish terrorists have imposed severe censorship on their casualties in the media. Also the casualties count comes from western sources, so they will undoubtfully mention only civilian deaths or fixing on those.

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## jauk

Very interesting reference/image of Simorgh and Soroosh engine:

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## 925boy

drmeson said:


> Saudis/Emiratis can literally kiss the idea of defeating Houthis a goodbye. They are Hezbollah 2.0 now. What a payback for Syria.


One can even say that Houthis are a MEGA Hezbollah, cuz lets be honest- Houthis ARE a larger a bigger military force than HEzbollah is- not even close- Yemen is a huge country with large territory, HEzbollah controls small territory, in small southern Lebanon, even population - Houthis inherited large caches and weapons from Yemeni army, Hezbollah had to get weapons from itself, or smuggled from Iran, then look at location, I guess Hezbollah is in a more "valuable" location for Iran given its proximity to Israel, but Yemen having borders with Red Sea Area AND Persian Gulf, that's also enormous advantage, and its proximity to IRanian mainland and territories could be seem by some as being more valuable than just having an ally like HEzb right next to ISrael- building the empire, block by block, blood ,money and sweat.

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## Iranitaakharin

tsunset said:


> More footage
> 
> 
> 
> Fath launchers are used again
> 
> *Official IRGC statement:*
> 
> The attacks will continue until the headquarters of the terrorist groups are dismantled
> 
> Regarding the inattention of the authorities of the northern region of Iraq to the warnings to dismantle the activities of terrorist groups and attack the border areas of Iran and also as well as supporting the recent riots, the soldiers of the Hamza Seyyed al-Shohda base of the IRGC ground forces started their operations towards their headquarters and deployment centers in parts of the region
> 
> This operation will continue until the threat is effectively removed and the headquarters of the terrorist groups are dismantled and the authorities of the region resolutely fulfill their obligations and responsibilities.
> 
> *Update:*
> 
> IRGC attacked Kurdish terrorists party in the two regions of: Koysanjaq near Erbil and the city of Alton Kopri near Kirkuk.
> 
> At least 13 people died and _58 _wounded in total attacks by Iran on the Kurdistan Region
> 
> 14 wounded and 4 died in Koysanjaq
> 
> 14 wounded and 3 in Altun Kupri
> 
> Certainly, the actual number of casualties is much higher than the mentioned numbers, and the Kurdish terrorists have imposed severe censorship on their casualties in the media. Also the casualties count comes from western sources, so they will undoubtfully mention only civilian deaths or fixing on those.


Geolocation of footage:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575493214265839622

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## WudangMaster

Iranitaakharin said:


> Geolocation of footage:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575493214265839622


tammuz intel vaaghan faahesheh maadar ghabeh kasif madfoo khor toraati hastan!


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## Mehdipersian

Test of abu mahdi anti ship cruise missile 
https://www.aparat.com/v/X2Y1k

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577967695919828992
If anyone knows more about this missile, please share.

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## aryobarzan

BlessedKingOfLonging said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577967695919828992
> If anyone knows more about this missile, please share.


It is "Bad A*s" ask Ayatollah Mike..lol

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

aryobarzan said:


> It is "Bad A*s" ask Ayatollah Mike..lol


Aaaaaaaah, I'm guessing a certain E-11A over Afghanistan got "kissed" by it 😸?

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## Mehdipersian

*Attack on israel nuclear facility with missiles and shahed 136 drones
*





آپارات - سرویس اشتراک ویدیو







www.aparat.com

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## GrandBotBoi

BlessedKingOfLonging said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577967695919828992
> If anyone knows more about this missile, please share.


Houthis call 358 "Saqr-1". It's used by Iraqi PMF too. Engine is copy of Dutch Titan micro jet, maybe, TJ-HP4

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## tsunset

Question about the Sejjil 2 stage missile if someone knows, how did Iran made such a missile after Shahab-3 which was a liquid fueled modified scud-D if i believe, to the 2 stage solid fueled Sejjil?

I looked at mostly western article about this missile https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/sejjil/ 


> Development of the Sejjil missile likely began in the late 1990s, but stems directly from development work of previous Iranian missiles, most notably the Zelzal SRBM. Its use of solid propellant, in particular, is due to fuel technology advancement made in conjunction with the Zelzal program during the 1990s, the development of which is believed to have been aided by China.


The "source" comes from IISS and Janes, which claims that Iran got aided by China "probably" but they aren't providing proofs so I'm skeptical because they are the same outlets that cannot believe Iran can make something without foreign aid, does someone knows or what are your thoughts about the construction of Sejjil? Its origins, how Iran managed to go from liquid one stage to solid two stage

This is one of the best missiles Iran's got judging by its specs, i think it is more than 2000km of range


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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581578436186755072

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## lydian fall



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582254512277839873

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582027756476387328

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## Sineva

Messerschmitt said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582254512277839873

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## Stryker1982

Russia single handedly reviving the Fateh-110 production line

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## Stryker1982

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582911015075082240
I agree with this. I didn't agree with his previous thread on Shahed-136 where he said Russia would use it as a terror weapon. He is wrong, it is very useful for infrastructure attacks and front-line attack. Russia might use it occansionaly for anger attacks, but it has plenty of tactical nad strategic value. Russia hasn't yet used it to its full potential yet. Regardless, Ukraine has very little in Ballistic missile defense, and is basically fucked without the US sending some emergency Anti-BM equipment to Ukraine and more importantly, training them which could take months to be properly using them, so the Americans would likely themselves have to operate them. Which has risks if their battery is targeted.

Unless, they've been trained in secret in Poland....

We shall see.


Its possible for speed and accuracy purposes, Iranian operators would fire them on behalf of Russia for the time being.

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## 925boy

Stryker1982 said:


> Unless, they've been trained in secret in Poland....


seriously! Since i heard some members of Poland's army are fighting in Ukraine, Poland needs to be very careful, even US hasnt send its soldiers to the frontline in Ukraine, war is war, it expanding doesnt mean the war isnt still war/normal war.

Shahed 136s, at this rate, will finish off so much of Ukraine's strategic facilities in some weeks, especially since Ukraine's defenses are crap atm.

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## Titanium100

925boy said:


> seriously! Since i heard some members of Poland's army are fighting in Ukraine, Poland needs to be very careful, even US hasnt send its soldiers to the frontline in Ukraine, war is war, it expanding doesnt mean the war isnt still war/normal war.
> 
> Shahed 136s, at this rate, will finish off so much of Ukraine's strategic facilities in some weeks, especially since Ukraine's defenses are crap atm.



Poland has no choice really But to deploy part of their armed forces to keep the fight there and avoid the fight coming to them or spreading to their borders.

To put it short Poland doesn't trust NATO and why should they trust them?. They are being pragmatic here

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## 925boy

Titanium100 said:


> To put it short Poland doesn't trust NATO and why should they trust them?


then Poland should pull out of NATO - saying one thing and doing another, did Poland learn that from Turkey? Turkey will also complain about NATO this and NATo that, but will never withdraw its membership to NATO, so they should shut up.


Titanium100 said:


> They are being pragmatic here


but are they being smart? I will bet money its not hard for RUssia to send Poland back to the 60s and 70s.

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## Titanium100

925boy said:


> then Poland should pull out of NATO - saying one thing and doing another, did Poland learn that from Turkey? Turkey will also complain about NATO this and NATo that, but will never withdraw its membership to NATO, so they should shut up.
> 
> but are they being smart? I will bet money its not hard for RUssia to send Poland back to the 60s and 70s.



The Americans will honor article 5 but the Polish are just restless because this happening right infront of them.. Someone has to secure their future in one way or another.. 

Poland will make an Incursion at some point in my opinion

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588900394054217728

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## yavar

Iran IRGC Aerospace Qaem-100 solid fuel propellant Motor

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## Mr Iran Eye

yavar said:


> Iran IRGC Aerospace Qaem-100 solid fuel propellant Motor


Wow ! Push powerful and fast from the start, impressive

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## OldTwilight

our icbm is ready .... it's time for nuclear warh6

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## tsunset

Any info on the Hoveizeh CM? I was wondering if Iran could make it into ALCM for fighters such as the F-4, or on future possible Su-35s, Russia still uses its upgraded version Kh-55 ALCM, China bought at the same time with Iran Kh-55, they made them into ALCM

Is Soumar, Ya-Ali and Hoveizeh all the same base of kh-55? I can't find pictures of Ya-Ali, it was used in Abqaiq i read


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## Hack-Hook

tsunset said:


> Any info on the Hoveizeh CM? I was wondering if Iran could make it into ALCM for fighters such as the F-4, or on future possible Su-35s, Russia still uses its upgraded version Kh-55 ALCM, China bought at the same time with Iran Kh-55, they made them into ALCM
> 
> Is Soumar, Ya-Ali and Hoveizeh all the same base of kh-55? I can't find pictures of Ya-Ali, it was used in Abqaiq i read


only su-24 can carry a Hoveizeh based cruise missile , its weight would be more than 1100kg f-4 can carry on each pylon


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## Stryker1982

tsunset said:


> Any info on the Hoveizeh CM? I was wondering if Iran could make it into ALCM for fighters such as the F-4, or on future possible Su-35s, Russia still uses its upgraded version Kh-55 ALCM, China bought at the same time with Iran Kh-55, they made them into ALCM
> 
> Is Soumar, Ya-Ali and Hoveizeh all the same base of kh-55? I can't find pictures of Ya-Ali, it was used in Abqaiq i read





Hack-Hook said:


> only su-24 can carry a Hoveizeh based cruise missile , its weight would be more than 1100kg f-4 can carry on each pylon


Their was a picture of the Su-24 carrying one when it was parked


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## yavar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589022436200091648





IRIB News report on Iran IRGC Aerospace Qaem-100 solid fuel propellant, Perpetration, TEL, Erector Booster, Lift off, Satellite Launch Vehicle (SLV ),

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## yavar

Iran IRGC Space Force Chief Brigadier General Jafar-Abadi on Qaem series solid fuel Propellant: The Qaem-100 satellite is the first member of the satellite carrier family.Qaem-105, Qaem-110 and Qaem-120 other members of this family.
Qaem-120 satellite carrier will be used to place the satellite in the Geo orbit (36000 km).
Nahid satellite will be put in space by end of this Persian calendar year.

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589661398627667968

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590221284251955201

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## yavar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590336139994755072



Iran IRGC Aerospace Ghaem-100 solid fuel propellant , Transporter Truck, Erecting & launch Preparation TEL ,

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## jauk

Pastels. Hajizadeh was being explicit when he once said we 'roll these out like candy':

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## DoubleYouSee

فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه از ساخت موشک هایپرسونیک خبر داد


فرمانده نیروی هوافضای سپاه پاسداران از ساخت موشک بالستیک هایپرسونیک خبر داد و گفت: این موشک جدید از همه سامانه‌های سپر موشکی عبور می‌کند و فکر نمی‌کنم تا دهها سال بعد هم فناوری پیدا شود که بتوان با آن مقابله کند.




www.mashreghnews.ir




Iranian DF-17,what we were waiting for

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## tsunset

Iran says it has built hypersonic ballistic missile -Tasnim


Iran has built a hypersonic ballistic missile, the semi-official Tasnim news agency quoted the Revolutionary Guards' aerospace commander as saying, in remarks likely to heighten concerns about Iranian missile capabilities.




www.reuters.com

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## Atar god of the fire

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590598492233211904

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## yavar



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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590676005920067585

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590676012722925568

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590676021610975234

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590676026216321026

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590697287499776000

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590699635534090242

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590702858302734336

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## Stryker1982

tsunset said:


> Iran says it has built hypersonic ballistic missile -Tasnim
> 
> 
> Iran has built a hypersonic ballistic missile, the semi-official Tasnim news agency quoted the Revolutionary Guards' aerospace commander as saying, in remarks likely to heighten concerns about Iranian missile capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Vertical launch with Rafee based engine I wanna bet.

Hopefully won't have to wait too long for him to show us the goods. These public announcements aren't random. They are timed and planned for a purpose, and therefore must have specific reasons to announce it publicly to the world. 

Probably means unveiling is not too far away!

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## tsunset

Gives Iran also knowledge for ABM missiles, Iran would be certain to destroy Arrow/THAAD before launching massive strikes using Ghadr/Emad/Sejjil with more than 1ton warhead

I wonder if there will be an anti-ship variant SLCM like the YJ-21 but ground based or even launched from ship

What do you guys think the range of this would be? 2000km still? Raafe is a powerful rocket motor. The leader always said to not surpass 2000km of range since its not needed for Iran's defense according to him

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## jauk

Rafe based missile weight vs range analysis:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590385453429317633

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## Mr Iran Eye

Stryker1982 said:


> Vertical launch with Rafee based engine I wanna bet.
> 
> Hopefully won't have to wait too long for him to show us the goods. These public announcements aren't random. They are timed and planned for a purpose, and therefore must have specific reasons to announce it publicly to the world.
> 
> Probably means unveiling is not too far away!


When we know now and I have said it several times that Iran 4 to 8 years ahead of their announcement processes so we can see the surprises not revealed in the bank. And tests and improving new weapons can be long

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## SOHEIL

Stryker1982 said:


> Vertical launch with Rafee based engine I wanna bet.



****** is not a vertical launch system...

But everything is possible in future ☻

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## Mr Iran Eye

There are media that announces that Iran's first hypersonic missile will be but that is false because the RAAD-500 is hyspersonic. But it seems that this new missile will be even more powerful with a longer range


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## Hack-Hook

Mr Iran Eye said:


> There are media that announces that Iran's first hypersonic missile will be but that is false because the RAAD-500 is hyspersonic. But it seems that this new missile will be even more powerful with a longer range


it will be HGV not hypersonic alone

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## Iraqi soldier

yavar said:


> Iran IRGC Space Force Chief Brigadier General Jafar-Abadi on Qaem series solid fuel Propellant: The Qaem-100 satellite is the first member of the satellite carrier family.Qaem-105, Qaem-110 and Qaem-120 other members of this family.
> Qaem-120 satellite carrier will be used to place the satellite in the Geo orbit (36000 km).
> Nahid satellite will be put in space by end of this Persian calendar year.





yavar said:


> Iran IRGC Space Force Chief Brigadier General Jafar-Abadi on Qaem series solid fuel Propellant: The Qaem-100 satellite is the first member of the satellite carrier family.Qaem-105, Qaem-110 and Qaem-120 other members of this family.
> Qaem-120 satellite carrier will be used to place the satellite in the Geo orbit (36000 km).
> Nahid satellite will be put in space by end of this Persian calendar year.


I think he means that the next versions will depend on the same engine, which is the rafea engine, which will be installed on top of each other on three stages or next to it as lifting supports.

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## Iraqi soldier

jauk said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590221284251955201


This will get Iran out of the neck of some problems
Such as
heat resistant paint
The structure is resistant to high speed and pressure
It will provide the capabilities of long-range air-to-air missiles

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591034325101084673

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## Sineva

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/an-iranian-ballistic-missile-storm-is-on-ukraines-horizon

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## Dexon

Sineva said:


> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/an-iranian-ballistic-missile-storm-is-on-ukraines-horizon


TWZ: And how concerned are you about that threat?

KB: It's a serious threat because Iranian missiles, unlike Russian ones, are quite high precision, very high speed and those features have been battle proven

😎

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590781653257191424

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## Stryker1982

jauk said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590781653257191424


Might not have the flying wing design which may be harder and more expensive to produce. As we know, Iran likes to cast aside luxury, in focus for more quantity and cost reduction as long as it fits the criteria.

High maneuverability at Hypersonic speeds.
Accuracy
Payload.
Low RCS

Anything else like greater maneuverability & lift with flying wing design with lower RCS may be considered luxuries and not needed.

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## Muhammed45

Properties of IRGC's hypersonic BM 






Blocking/absorbing radio waves
Speed between 5 Mach to 25 Mach
Hypersonic
Flight path unpredictable
Radar evading
Capable of high manueverability, also able to change/shift flight path in every phase

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## Abid123

How much did Russia pay Iran for the ballistic missiles? Anybody here know?

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## Hack-Hook

Abid123 said:


> How much did Russia pay Iran for the ballistic missiles? Anybody here know?


which ballistic missile , the one that some fake media journalist claimed that even Whitehouse said there is no evidence for it


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## lydian fall




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## jauk

Stryker1982 said:


> Might not have the flying wing design which may be harder and more expensive to produce. As we know, Iran likes to cast aside luxury, in focus for more quantity and cost reduction as long as it fits the criteria.
> 
> High maneuverability at Hypersonic speeds.
> Accuracy
> Payload.
> Low RCS
> 
> Anything else like greater maneuverability & lift with flying wing design with lower RCS may be considered luxuries and not needed.



Can you elaborate the difference between an HGV and a hypersonic missile? Why HGV at all and what elements of the HGV are must haves?

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## Hack-Hook

jauk said:


> Can you elaborate the difference between an HGV and a hypersonic missile? Why HGV at all and what elements of the HGV are must haves?


for starter you can predict the path of a hyper-sonic missile or at least have a good understanding of the approximate area it will hit , for HGV you can't do that its like a hyper-sonic cruise missile


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## jauk

Hack-Hook said:


> for starter you can predict the path of a hyper-sonic missile or at least have a good understanding of the approximate area it will hit , for HGV you can't do that its like a hyper-sonic cruise missile



So that characteristic is a must have for an HGV. Ergo the Iranian one should have that at minimum. Please correct me if I’m wrong.


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## Hack-Hook

jauk said:


> So that characteristic is a must have for an HGV. Ergo the Iranian one should have that at minimum. Please correct me if I’m wrong.


don't knew what it have as it's not unveiled yet but they said it can change it's path inside the atmosphere and also outside of it that mean it has at least sort of thrust vectoring, i wonder if it use the new missile fuel that they were talking about last year , the one that they said is a gel not liquid or solid and its engine can be turned on and off like liquid fuel missiles and at the same time have high thrust and the capability to be stored inside the missile like solid fuel

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## 925boy

Mr Iran Eye said:


> There are media that announces that Iran's first hypersonic missile will be but that is false because the RAAD-500 is hyspersonic. But it seems that this new missile will be even more powerful with a longer range


I see RAAD -500 has hypersonic speed, but that might not make it an actual HGV, if it has same ballistic trajectory, then its def not an HGV, and on this, i thought the Khyber Shekan was actually Iran's 1st HGV, i think @drmeson helped us by providing useful information on it and other missiles.

Nothing can intercept Khyber Shekan i think.

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## Kiarash



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## Muhammed45

Based on the released features of IRGC's HyperSonic Ballistic missile, it can be called a Gliding vehicle. The reason is manuvering in all the phases of launch with highest possible speed.

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## Muhammed45

Americans and western media are denying IRGC's HGV achievement.

Sardar Hajizadeh is not known for making baseless claims, so sooner or later IRGC will unveil it. The general is the head of IRGC's aero-space forces and it would be a political suicide to deny his words right after his announcement.

My understanding is that Americans did it out of desperation. Previously, Americans tried to introduce Arabs and Israelis with an integrated airdefense network. They had prepared the needed ground to convince Arabs and make them pay for Israeli security. On the other hand the Arab alliance with Israel costs Arabs a lot. They have to pay for it.

After IRGC's announcement Americans were quick to comment on it which indicates that they are worried about Arab investment in the afforementioned joint airdefense network between Arabs and Israelis. That's why Americans make stupid comments.

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## jauk

Excellent analysis on Iran’s HGVs. Summary: given Iran’s experience in control, guidance, aerodynamics, and hypersonics, the advent of HGVs is not only expected but they have been finalized. @Hack-Hook 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591713587252367361

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## aryobarzan

What ever it is will be tested here...Only Iran and India have this kind of facility in West Asia:
Mach 8 Shock-tunnel facility at Iran's Imam Hossein University completed in 2014.





.

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## tsunset

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591547761723596800
🤣

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## DoubleYouSee

tsunset said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591547761723596800
> 🤣


i was watching it,i was laughing at that moment of interview.

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## lydian fall



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## jauk

Interesting counter arguments to @patarames' Twitter claims on B-373/SayyadB intercept feature of F-35s:









Is the F-35 in the Middle East threatened by Iran's X-band radar?


Iranian Bavar-373 SAM made a radar lock on a target at a distance of about 400 km and destroyed it at a distance of 300 km, several Iranian sources claimed.




bulgarianmilitary.com

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## thesaint

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592635793482604544

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## zartosht

2 unbelievably huge announcements that have gone under the radar

Hypersonic missiles that will make western abms obsolete 

And icbms. Or space launcher”. there is now very good reason to believe that Iran has, or is extremely close to having nukes aimed at continental US territory 

The capability is there, its at best a poltical decision now. 

I really hope Iran leaves the NPT.

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## tsunset

Iran also already have a conventional (or not) second strike capability https://patarames.blogspot.com/2020/11/irans-path-to-second-strike-capability.html?m=1

Technically US most powerful bunker buster bombs (GBU-57) cannot reach at all underground launching sites, they aren't just built underground, but under mountains, meaning the ordnance would have to pierce through 500m of granite and concrete reinforcements at the end, neither nuclear bunker buster bombs would have that capability, the only thing would be to strike the entrance and exits, but new entrances can be made with excavators/other machines inside. This would be literally an exploding volcano.

No matter if Iran is struck with nuclear weapons, there will be a response.

The only missing thing are nuclear weapons, even the current stockpile of conventional missiles are enough to cause massive damage to any neighboring country, for having a full deterrence capability, Iran should have the capability to strike inside US homeland, with nuclear weapons, you just cannot rely on conventional missiles for such a big country and Europe, conventional weapons are fine for neighboring countries/the region.

Iran would also little by little move on hypersonic glide vehicles, because currently any ballistic missile launched by Iran are detected immediately by western satellites thus giving them a little time and using anti ballistic systems at the best moment to intercept them (when they are at a stable speed and trajectory), even if a lot would reach their targets, some would be intercepted and allow them to respond quicker before the missiles reaches their targets, the west overrely on satellites, Iran should get the capability to eliminate them.

For country such as the US, target New York, DC, Los Angeles, San Francisco and social media infrastructures (wipe out silicon valley), Seattle, Dallas, Las Vegas, Philadephia

Also pursuing nuclear device researches to obtain thermoclear and neutron weapons, this would allow to completely eliminate a state that would use nuclear weapons on Iran, Iran should also keep ambiguity about its program and kick out IAEA personel.

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## sha ah

Nuclear weapons puts a nation on a different level. Just look at the Tsar Bomba. One is enough to wipe out Britain. Compare the size to the micro Hiroshima bomb. Even EMP bombs on large population centers can cause millions to die without electricity. Personally I don't even think humans should have access to these type of weapons but when one has it then all want them.









tsunset said:


> Iran also already have a conventional (or not) second strike capability https://patarames.blogspot.com/2020/11/irans-path-to-second-strike-capability.html?m=1
> 
> Technically US most powerful bunker buster bombs (GBU-57) cannot reach at all underground launching sites, they aren't just built underground, but under mountains, meaning the ordnance would have to pierce through 500m of granite and concrete reinforcements at the end, neither nuclear bunker buster bombs would have that capability, the only thing would be to strike the entrance and exits, but new entrances can be made with excavators/other machines inside. This would be literally an exploding volcano.
> 
> No matter if Iran is struck with nuclear weapons, there will be a response.
> 
> The only missing thing are nuclear weapons, even the current stockpile of conventional missiles are enough to cause massive damage to any neighboring country, for having a full deterrence capability, Iran should have the capability to strike inside US homeland, with nuclear weapons, you just cannot rely on conventional missiles for such a big country and Europe, conventional weapons are fine for neighboring countries/the region.
> 
> Iran would also little by little move on hypersonic glide vehicles, because currently any ballistic missile launched by Iran are detected immediately by western satellites thus giving them a little time and using anti ballistic systems at the best moment to intercept them (when they are at a stable speed and trajectory), even if a lot would reach their targets, some would be intercepted and allow them to respond quicker before the missiles reaches their targets, the west overrely on satellites, Iran should get the capability to eliminate them.
> 
> For country such as the US, target New York, DC, Los Angeles, San Francisco and social media infrastructures (wipe out silicon valley), Seattle, Dallas, Las Vegas, Philadephia
> 
> Also pursuing nuclear device researches to obtain thermoclear and neutron weapons, this would allow to completely eliminate a state that would use nuclear weapons on Iran, Iran should also keep ambiguity about its program and kick out IAEA personel.


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## Iraqi soldier

I love Iran, and I wish it to be strong, and its position of not having a nuclear bomb is correct, and it should not be considered wrong.
Iran's strength lies in its dominant position on energy corridors and energy fields, and its threat to the spoiled child of the West, which is Israel
Therefore, the West will not risk a even if they work together , let alone one country, by attacking Iran, because it cannot wage a long war that will deplete its capabilities while the capabilities of China and Russia are increasing.
It cannot use nuclear weapons because it does not have this weapon
This is the strong point

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## Messerschmitt

Hi

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## Messerschmitt

^ better quality

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## jauk

Messerschmitt said:


> View attachment 898851
> 
> ^ better quality


Seems this was later withdrawn by Meshkat noting it’s not real but a graphic. 

Regardless this not an HGV. I thought Hajizadeh was alluding to a maneuverable glide vehicle not just a hypersonic missile. 

Am I missing something?

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## Muhammed45

jauk said:


> Seems this was later withdrawn by Meshkat noting it’s not real but a graphic.
> 
> Regardless this not an HGV. I thought Hajizadeh was alluding to a maneuverable glide vehicle not just a hypersonic missile.
> 
> Am I missing something?


What if this part has an engine inside?

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## Mr Iran Eye

"The power of the missiles of Iran above the world level" (General Hajizadeh)
The commander of the aerospace division of the Islamic Revolutionary Guardian Corps (CGRI) says that Iran had a world level drone power and was now a pioneer in ballistic missile technology.

Brigadier general Amir-Ali Hajizadeh made the comments during a ceremony held on Sunday, November 20, claiming that Iran was tied with the global powers in terms of drone technology and that his achievements in this field had challenged The powerful armies of the world.
"There are many other military skills that will be revealed in time, such as the ability to touch enemy targets at a distance of 1,500 kilometers," said General Hajizadeh. (((((((((((( It is I who quote here, it's been a long time since I say it here that Iran has several hidden things that will suck many people here and that is why I maintain more prediction that I did here. There are even kowsar, f-5 modifying that will surprise you and other aircraft of ever seen, it is another prediction based on my intuition and research.))))))))))

He added that in terms of missile technology, Iran is above world level, adding: "The news of the revealing of the advanced hypersonic ballistic missile capable of maneuvering outside the atmosphere did not however was a new achievement, but the CGRI has decided to announce it recently. »»
He added that the Iranian hypersonic missile represented a generational growth push and that enemies would not be able to counter it for decades.

"In the space field, we have recently been able to launch the Qaem-100-100-100-fuel pampers with solid fuel," said the Iranian commander, adding: "We will put the first orbit satellite before March 2023 using the Qaem- 100. »»

Earlier this month, the CGRI aerospace force successfully launched the three-story launcher Qaem-100 on a solid propriety.

The QAEM-100, the first of its kind made by Iranian scientists, is able to put satellites to 80 kg to a distance of 500 km from the Earth's surface.

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## Hack-Hook

Muhammed45 said:


> What if this part has an engine inside?
> View attachment 899012


don't think too much about this . its just a painting , the missile when unveiled certainly look different

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594449653872955393

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## thesaint

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594369512450695170

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## thesaint

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595117897474772992

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## jauk

thesaint said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595117897474772992


Oldie but goodie.

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## lydian fall

Iranian IBCM with 12,000 KMs range 🇮🇷🇮🇷⚛

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## Mehdipersian

10 000 km range 




First stage of qaem 100

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596723809650114560

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## scimitar19

jauk said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596723809650114560


I believe Persian Gulf can be a source of power for Iranian ballistic missile force. Imageine you have underground missile city adjacent to to the gulf shores. But in this case you are not launching missiles from the land but rather jettison them horizontally in the containerized capsules which afterwards get into 90 degree position and then make them launch from the sea.
This way no need build launch positions on the land and expose these positions to the enemy and detecting the real hatches which are underwater is impossible. Placing submarines in this almost land locked patch of water would be suicidal mission for the enemy.


The big concern with these missile cities is their capacity to continually launch missiles from underground positions without the risk of being targeted in worse case scenario even nuked. One thick layer of water can mask these horizontal missile silos to the point where enemy would run frenzy trying to detect where the missile came from.

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## jauk

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599135911702253568

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## Messerschmitt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600213048459137024

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## BlessedKingOfLonging

You know, it's off-topic but your name is the same as someone extremely dear to me and I pray for you precisely for this reason. You and @mohsen jan both.


yavar said:


>


Do you have any idea of what kind of hypersonic missile this is? A ballistic missile, cruise missile or HGV? Has any development been done regarding interception of hypersonic silos? What is being reported in Iranian press?


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