# F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?



## mil-avia

*F-60 / J-21 aircraft with Pakistan Air Force roundel and national flag :







This image shows the F-60 fighter with asymmetrically deflected tailplanes and an F-16 jet. 


Related link.  *

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## tarrar

F 16 & J 20. When J 20 will be inducted successfully in PLAAF then Pakistan will most probably buy them.

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## Desert Fox

It has two engines, according to many knowledgeable members of this forum Pakistan would not go for a 5th gen aircraft with two engines.

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## Kompromat

Desert Fox said:


> It has two engines, according to many knowledgeable members of this forum Pakistan would not go for a 5th gen aircraft with two engines.



Not until 2018 , we have had twin engine fighter jets before and i guess we can have again IF our economy can support it.

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## Stealth

PAkistan Must go for twin engine ... now enough *****sense of Pakistan Airforce thinktanks! because of that **** idiot thinking today PAF suffering alot... We have just 50 FRONT LINE FIGHTS in 60 years!

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## Peaceful Civilian

Stealth said:


> PAkistan Must go for twin engine ... now enough *****sense of Pakistan Airforce thinktanks! because of that **** idiot thinking today PAF suffering alot... We have just 50 FRONT LINE FIGHTS in 60 years!


Yes and many are old, Now getting MLU, but it will not enhance the life of Airframe. Our f16 will become Mirages from 2020-25.
You know what happened to F35 when they decided single engine contains max 145KT thrust .
Maximum speed limited to 1.6 Mach.

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## Imran Khan

Desert Fox said:


> It has two engines, according to many knowledgeable members of this forum Pakistan would not go for a 5th gen aircraft with two engines.



why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?

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## Zabaniyah

tarrar said:


> F 16 & J 20. When J 20 will be inducted successfully in PLAAF then Pakistan will most probably buy them.



I doubt if the Chinese would be willing to export the J-20.



Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?



Twin-engined jets are cool!

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## Desert Fox

Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?



No Imran Bhai, its what knowledgeable members of this very forum said, i'm only going by their information, which is why i gave reference to them in my post.



Desert Fox said:


> It has two engines, *according to many knowledgeable members* of this forum Pakistan would not go for a 5th gen aircraft with two engines.



Also, as Aeronaut stated, only if Pakistan's economy can support it.

I personally would love it if PN goes for J-11B's, but too bad they can't.

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## Sasquatch

Zabaniya said:


> I doubt if the Chinese would be willing to export the J-20.



Just as the US refused the F-22 for Japan China won't export for a while, It's the PLAAF that wants 300-400 J-20's. but the J2x and the F-60 for exporting. 



Zabaniya said:


> Twin-engined jets are cool!



Pakistan prefers single engine fighters correct ?

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## Irfan Baloch

Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?



finances I think

we already got JF-17 and J-10 going for a third one might not leave much resources to spare.
and also think what role will it play?

JF-17 being the backbone replacing mirages , A5s and F7PGs jack of all trade, air strike, CAP etc.
J-10 together with F-16 .. yet again... Multirole .. intercept, SEAD, escort, CAP and strike roles beyond JF-17s limits.

that pretty much fills everything/.. what is J-61/ F60 going to be? air superiority? replacement of JF-17 and J-10s? 
first one is just starting induction, second one is still on paper in terms of what PAF wants. 

F-*60 *or J21 might be something in the far far future. if I am not mistaken JF-17 and J-10s wont mature in our life time.

do correct me if its absurd what I say

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## Zabaniyah

Hu Songshan said:


> Just as the US refused the F-22 for Japan China won't export for a while, It's the PLAAF that wants 300-400 J-20's. but the J2x and the F-60 for exporting.



So the same status as the US-made F-35 eh? I'd say the F-60 looks very good 



Hu Songshan said:


> Pakistan prefers single engine fighters correct ?



Mostly for efficiency reasons I believe. 

But I think they'd go for a twin-engined fighter if it offers superior returns relative to a single-engined one. So, I guess it depends what's on the table, and of-course the resources the operator has.

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## joekrish

Desert Fox said:


> No Imran Bhai, its what knowledgeable members of this very forum said, i'm only going by their information, which is why i gave reference to them in my post.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, as Aeronaut stated, only if Pakistan's economy can support it.
> 
> I personally would love it if PN goes for J-11B's, but too bad they can't.




Why would PN not buy the J 11 B's? Is it coz of the price?


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## Sasquatch

Zabaniya said:


> So the same status as the US-made F-35 eh? I'd say the F-60 looks very good



Correct for now the J-20's are for the PLAAF, but maybe in 20 years for export, thumbs up to SAC.




Zabaniya said:


> Mostly for efficiency reasons I believe.
> 
> But I think they'd go for a twin-engined fighter if it offers superior returns relative to a single-engined one. So, I guess it depends what's on the table, and of-course the resources the operator has.



Pakistan could gain more experience by China and Saudi Arabia allowing them it train on the J-11, Su-30, F-15.

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## Sasquatch

Concept design

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## somebozo

one word.photochop of very poor quality


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## alimobin memon

somebozo said:


> one word.photochop of very poor quality



Yea like u chopped the Shop hahaha

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## Icewolf

joekrish said:


> Why would PN not buy the J 11 B's? Is it coz of the price?



No need of aircraft carriers.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Speculative post , its not even in Chinese airforce

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## Peaceful Civilian

joekrish said:


> Why would PN not buy the J 11 B's? Is it coz of the price?


For pak Navy. We have aircraft carrier?? 
Even if inducted it will be under PAF not navy.


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## Windjammer

Peaceful Civlian said:


> For pak Navy. We have aircraft carrier??
> Even if inducted it will be under PAF not navy.


You don't necessarily need an aircraft carrier to have Naval Jet strike element. 
We do have a Naval Air Wing, equipped with P-3 Orions, Atlantique and F-27 Maritime aircraft as well as several rotary types, which operate from shore bases. There was even news that Maritime strike Mirages may be passed over to the Naval wing.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> You don't necessarily need an aircraft carrier to have Naval Jet strike element.
> We do have a Naval Air Wing, equipped with P-3 Orions, Atlantique and F-27 Maritime aircraft as well as several rotary types, which operate from shore bases.* There was even news that Maritime strike Mirages may be passed over to the Naval wing*.



this idea was discussed by students at the NDU and presented to the top brass but was rejected.


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## IceCold

Irfan Baloch said:


> finances I think
> 
> we already got JF-17 and J-10 going for a third one might not leave much resources to spare.
> and also think what role will it play?
> 
> JF-17 being the backbone replacing mirages , A5s and F7PGs jack of all trade, air strike, CAP etc.
> J-10 together with F-16 .. yet again... Multirole .. intercept, SEAD, escort, CAP and strike roles beyond JF-17s limits.
> 
> that pretty much fills everything/.. what is J-61/ F60 going to be? air superiority? replacement of JF-17 and J-10s?
> first one is just starting induction, second one is still on paper in terms of what PAF wants.
> 
> F-16 or J21 might be something in the far far future. if I am not mistaken JF-17 and J-10s wont mature in our life time.
> 
> do correct me if its absurd what I say



J-10 will hardly offer anything over the JF-17 and the F-16. Payload yes but if you consider how many wet stations it has, then there isnt much difference between JF-17 and J-10. Your post is correct but replace F-60 with J-10 because its the J-10 that offers nothing of significant leap over both the F-16s and JF-17.

My take is this, scrap the J-10 deal, its not worth the time and get involved in one of the 5th generation projects with either chengdu or Shenyang even if we don't have much to contribute. Imagine the knowledge we would gain by becoming partners in a 5th generation project. PAF engineers are already working in Chengdu so joining one of their 5th generation projects make much more sense and our JF-17 can be used as a test bed for the technology being developed for 5th generation. This way we can be sure of two things:
1) Alot of technology will make its way to JF-17 making it a true 4.5th generation fighter 
2) We will be able to induct a 5th generation fighter by 2020, meaning much quicker then our Indian counterparts giving us the edge we have lost for so long now.

[

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## turbo charged

if we can make a JF-17 land on water then there will be no need for aircraft carrier....we can have one large destroyer carrying racks at its back with JF-17 tied to it and floating along with it.....taking off from water and landing on water is very much possible ...imo slight experimentation is needed.


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## Peaceful Civilian

turbo charged said:


> if we can make a JF-17 land on water then there will be no need for aircraft carrier....we can have one large destroyer carrying racks at its back with JF-17 tied to it and floating along with it.....taking off from water and landing on water is very much possible ...imo slight experimentation is needed.


I think it can't takeoff quickly from water. It has to cover lot of distance and times consuming process.
Where to hide weapons in Floating Planes??  














Also it can't travel too long on sea as Aircraft carrier does but you will need Floating Sea refueler Object.


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## SBD-3

IceCold said:


> J-10 will hardly offer anything over the JF-17 and the F-16. Payload yes but if you consider how many wet stations it has, then there isnt much difference between JF-17 and J-10. Your post is correct but replace F-60 with J-10 because its the J-10 that offers nothing of significant leap over both the F-16s and JF-17.
> 
> My take is this, scrap the J-10 deal, its not worth the time and get involved in one of the 5th generation projects with either chengdu or Shenyang even if we don't have much to contribute. Imagine the knowledge we would gain by becoming partners in a 5th generation project. PAF engineers are already working in Chengdu so joining one of their 5th generation projects make much more sense and *our JF-17 can be used as a test bed for the technology being developed for 5th generation*. This way we can be sure of two things:
> 1) Alot of technology will make its way to JF-17 making it a true 4.5th generation fighter
> 2) We will be able to induct a 5th generation fighter by 2020, meaning much quicker then our Indian counterparts giving us the edge we have lost for so long now.


Why would there be a need when testing is already going on J-20? Simple solution is to buy an already existing concept than reworking from scratch.



turbo charged said:


> *if we can make a JF-17 land on water then there will be no need for aircraft carrier*....we can have one large destroyer carrying racks at its back with JF-17 tied to it and floating along with it.....taking off from water and landing on water is very much possible ...imo slight experimentation is needed.


Very nice.


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## Icarus

turbo charged said:


> if we can make a JF-17 land on water then there will be no need for aircraft carrier....we can have one large destroyer carrying racks at its back with JF-17 tied to it and floating along with it.....taking off from water and landing on water is very much possible ...imo slight experimentation is needed.

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## Archie

Irfan Baloch said:


> finances I think
> 
> we already got JF-17 and J-10 going for a third one might not leave much resources to spare.
> and also think what role will it play?
> 
> JF-17 being the backbone replacing mirages , A5s and F7PGs jack of all trade, air strike, CAP etc.
> J-10 together with F-16 .. yet again... Multirole .. intercept, SEAD, escort, CAP and strike roles beyond JF-17s limits.
> 
> that pretty much fills everything/.. what is J-61/ F60 going to be? air superiority? replacement of JF-17 and J-10s?
> first one is just starting induction, second one is still on paper in terms of what PAF wants.
> 
> F-16 or J21 might be something in the far far future. if I am not mistaken JF-17 and J-10s wont mature in our life time.
> 
> do correct me if its absurd what I say



I think what it could mean is that J-21 could in future replace F-16A/B , not function side by side with F-16 , i mean we could probably see Blk 52 operating side by side with J-21 for like 5-10 yrs , but mainly I expect PAF to Purchase 60+ J-21 to replace F-16s between yr 2030-35

*if I am not mistaken JF-17 and J-10s wont mature in our life time.*

Dude How Old are you , it takes 7-10 yrs of full fledged service for a platform to fully integrate into an airforce , to say that JF-17, J-10 will not mature in your lifetimes means that you are 80 yrs old and on life support


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## IceCold

hasnain0099 said:


> Why would there be a need when testing is already going on J-20? Simple solution is to buy an already existing concept than reworking from scratch.



Knowledge my friend. Most of the tech will be existing already being developed for J-20 but i am talking about the same principle on which the J-10 is being used as a test bed for J-20 and the amount of tech that will make its way from J-20 to J-10.


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## Black Widow

There is no point to comment on photo shopped images.


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## sancho

IceCold said:


> My take is this, scrap the J-10 deal, its not worth the time and get involved in one of the 5th generation projects with either chengdu or Shenyang even if we don't have much to contribute...
> 
> ...1) Alot of technology will make its way to JF-17 making it a true 4.5th generation fighter
> 2) We will be able to induct a 5th generation fighter by 2020, meaning much quicker then our Indian counterparts giving us the edge we have lost for so long now.



I agree with you on the earlier, but since around 40 x J10s won't make a big difference and JF 17 has good upgrade potential too. However, the latter is a bit too far fetched, especially since it needs a lot of money and know how to develop a 5th gen fighter with real 5th gen capabilities and JF 17 currently is just a basic 4th platform. Joining China on such a development would be the best for PAF/Pakistan, but it won't be on the same level as for JF 17, because it would be way more costly development, the numbers that PAF can procure and operate will be way lower, the technical contribution is more limited too. PAF/Pakistan would be more dependent on what China offers in terms of industrial advantages or participation, but the gain of experience and know how might still be worth it.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> I agree with you on the earlier, but since around 40 x J10s won't make a big difference and JF 17 has good upgrade potential too. However, the latter is a bit too far fetched, especially since it needs a lot of money and know how to develop a 5th gen fighter with real 5th gen capabilities and JF 17 currently is just a basic 4th platform. Joining China on such a development would be the best for PAF/Pakistan, but it won't be on the same level as for JF 17, because it would be way more costly development, the numbers that PAF can procure and operate will be way lower, *the technical contribution is more limited too*. PAF/Pakistan would be more dependent on what China offers in terms of industrial advantages or participation, but the gain of experience and know how might still be worth it.



You would be surprised to know , that many of the features built into the JF-17.. such as the DSI intakes, LERX size increase etc.. Had a lot of CAE graduate contribution. the question is of industrial fabrication.. 
Testing of RCS , composite manufacturing etc.. 

Pakistan has no lack of design and testing ability.. what it lacks is a manufacturing base.

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> You would be surprised to know , that many of the features built into the JF-17.. such as the DSI intakes, LERX size increase etc.. Had a lot of CAE graduate contribution. the question is of industrial fabrication..
> Testing of RCS , composite manufacturing etc..
> 
> Pakistan has no lack of design and testing ability.. what it lacks is a manufacturing base.



He mean to say about a 5th Gen fighter, not about JF-17. 

Do PAC have wind tunnel, thunder strike testing facilities?


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## IceCold

sancho said:


> I agree with you on the earlier, but since around 40 x J10s won't make a big difference and JF 17 has good upgrade potential too. However, the latter is a bit too far fetched, especially since it needs a lot of money and know how to develop a 5th gen fighter with real 5th gen capabilities and JF 17 currently is just a basic 4th platform. Joining China on such a development would be the best for PAF/Pakistan, but it won't be on the same level as for JF 17, because it would be way more costly development, the numbers that PAF can procure and operate will be way lower, the technical contribution is more limited too. PAF/Pakistan would be more dependent on what China offers in terms of industrial advantages or participation, but the gain of experience and know how might still be worth it.



In another thread i did mention if we had better economy. You might want to call me far fetched but i am more of a optimistic then far fetched. With elections around the corner, and hopefully a new government in place, i am expecting our economy to recover. 
China has developed some extensive knowledge and Industrial infrastructure with J-20, definitely we will be dependent on that but again it also depends upon how much money can we pour in considering both Chendu and Shenyang have two independent projects going on and PAF is already working at Chengdu. Considering the present scenario things don't see rosy but like i said i am optimistic to see our economy back on track and hence by original time frame. 
We can't play the numbers game here, but the presence of a 5th generation fighter jet in PAF alone may i add is enough to shift the balance of power in our favor till the time India can inducts PAKFA. 

May i also add that we don't need 5th generation vis-via India alone, there is another hostility brewing up but thats another topic for another thread.

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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> He mean to say about a 5th Gen fighter, not about JF-17.
> 
> Do PAC have *wind tunnel*, thunder strike testing facilities?



Yes.. for flow models.

the Thunderstrike, Fatigue test facilities exist at chengdu which the joint team of JF-17 has access to.

ANd yes.. I referred to a 5th gen fighter too. 
The design ability for such an aircraft exists too.. to a large extent.
You must understand.. that there are not just local graduates sitting at the PAC.
Graduates from the UK(cranfield etc) , US(Embry Riddle) and all across the globe sit there..
These people have the qualification and the education in distinct important fields to contribute and teach to local students. 
So the knowledge base exists..
for eg.. A very detailed study on RAM coatings has been carried out by Pakistan back in the late 90's.. and tested in a modified operational aircraft against multiple radars ,and was found to have worked out pretty well.
So the knowledge base exists.. what these skills demand are funds to procure even more equipment and material.. which does not exist. So the next best thing..i.e to "borrow" Chinese facilities for such tasks is carried out.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> You would be surprised to know , that many of the features built into the JF-17



No I am not, but those are for a 4th gen fighter and these features are not 5th gen features or techs, that's why I said that the contribution to such a proect at the current stage would be far more limited.
Stealth design, materials, coatings, NG avionics, radar and weapons, let alone NG engines all fields necessary for such a development and even China and India are struggling at these indigenous developments.

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## SBD-3

IceCold said:


> Knowledge my friend. Most of the tech will be existing already being developed for J-20 but i am talking about the same principle on which the J-10 is being used as a test bed for J-20 and the amount of tech that will make its way from J-20 to J-10.


But then again, when the stock of knowledge already exists, it would be like reinventing the wheel when you have a wheel factory in your neighbourhood. This would be true had PAF selected to go with its own (which is still mastering the production of 4th gen).


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## graphican

Black Widow said:


> There is no point to comment on photo shopped images.



Ambitious members are merely trying to discuss a future need and its fulfillment option instead of a Photoshop image.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> No I am not, but those are for a* 4th gen fighter and these features are not 5th gen features or techs*, that's why I said that the contribution to such a proect at the current stage would be far more limited.
> *Stealth design, materials, coatings*, NG avionics, radar and weapons, let alone NG engines all fields necessary for such a development and even China and India are struggling at these indigenous developments.



However, that does not limit Pakistan contribution entirely..
Again.. the issue is of manufacturing base... To learn and research about 5th gen tech you need an experimental infrastuructre .. a research culture..

That does not exist at such a level in Pakistan.. many a brilliant engineers and scientist have left these halls for greener pastures due to frustration. There is still a lot more than goes on at AMC which is not even away


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## Beast

I agree, scrap the J-10 deal and go for F-60 one. PAF is clever. They probably don't want the J-10B deal. Which is the reason why nothing is finalise yet over J-10 for PAF.

F-60 offer far superior upgrade if inducted into PAF service.


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## SamranAli

what we need is better economy and fund, dont worry about tech, we have knowldge base and chinies experience too.



Beast said:


> I agree, scrap the J-10 deal and go for F-60 one. PAF is clever. They probably don't want the J-10B deal. Which is the reason why nothing is finalise yet over J-10 for PAF.
> 
> F-60 offer far superior upgrade if inducted into PAF service.


 
I agree with you, PAF should go for F-60.


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## Imran Khan

this will be really great man if we have 40 of these  one thing i am sure it is not a secret for PAF china must already inform them abut future programs


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## mosu

i am wating for to see these birds in PAF colours


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## TaimiKhan

I believe PAf will stick with whatever Chengdu is going to produce, don't think they will go with a SAC design, Both JF-17 & J-10 are from Chengdu, an J-20 is also from Chengdu, with the level of confidence and relationship we have made with Chengdu, don't think PAF will go somewhere else. 

And i still believe PAF will opt for a single engine stealth platform, twin engine seems not the case.


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## Imran Khan

TaimiKhan said:


> I believe PAf will stick with whatever Chengdu is going to produce, don't think they will go with a SAC design, Both JF-17 & J-10 are from Chengdu, an J-20 is also from Chengdu, with the level of confidence and relationship we have made with Chengdu, don't think PAF will go somewhere else.
> 
> And i still believe PAF will opt for a single engine stealth platform, twin engine seems not the case.



its not same chines gov owned ? then why should we stick in one and leave other? if F-60 is best for us and low cost then J-20 why not go with it ?


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## Kompromat

@Taimi , it really depends on what SAC offers to us. Both F-6 And A-5 were from SAC [Nanchang] i guess and they all worked out well for us.


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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> I believe PAf will stick with whatever Chengdu is going to produce, don't think they will go with a SAC design, Both JF-17 & J-10 are from Chengdu, an J-20 is also from Chengdu, with the level of confidence and relationship we have made with Chengdu, don't think PAF will go somewhere else.
> 
> And i still believe PAF will opt for a single engine stealth platform, twin engine seems not the case.



The question is what are the alternatives? F35, or a co-development with Turkey right? The earlier comes with high restrictions and operational limitations, the other with the risk that Turkey is not as far as China in the aero field and needs foreign support as well. But a co-development with Turkey would open the chance to western techs and weapons and reduce the dependance on China too. 
I doubt that PAF would go for a single engine fighter, because as the F35 shows, you need a highly powerful engine to carry the weight, fuel and payload and it still offers the least flight performance of all stealth fighters that are under development. The main operational costs will come from maintaining the stealth frame anyway and not from the engines or fuel consumption. Even 40 x of these fighters will add high operational costs to PAF.


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## TaimiKhan

Imran Khan said:


> its not same chines gov owned ? then why should we stick in one and leave other? if F-60 is best for us and low cost then J-20 why not go with it ?



I did not said we should go with J-20, you never know you may see a single engine stealth design from the J-20 manufacturer or may be a twin engine design similar to this new concept. 

It all depends what PAF wants and what the international users want.

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## DrSomnath999

but the pics states about j21 ,but why is everyone talking about j20????


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## KRAIT

DrSomnath999 said:


> but the pics states about j21 ,but why is everyone talking about j20????


Coz there isn't anything left/present to talk about. Speculations, to be confirmed, no real "leaked" video of uncovered plane.


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## Mani2020

Why we are bragging about something that is not on the cards atleast not for sometime , we are finding it hard to finance our own project , still many a thunders are to be inducted while the J-10 program is still lingering around and getting more fragile for me with every passing day ...so why the heck we are jumping onto D before getting onto B and C??

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## KRAIT

Mani2020 said:


> Why we are bragging about something that is not on the cards atleast not for sometime , we are finding it hard to finance our own project , still many a thunders are to be inducted while the J-10 program is still lingering around and getting more fragile for me with every passing day ...so why the heck we are jumping onto D before getting onto B and C??


One of the practical/realistic posts. You are right, not only your own side, people of our side brag about AURA, AMCA,FGFA which is yet to materialize or inducted. Lets talk about ACs likely to be inducted soon, J-10B,JF blk II on your side, Super Sukhoi,LCA, Rafale on ours...

China hasn't shown anything about it, yet everyone is assuming it is going to be inducted in next 5 years in their AF.

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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> The question is what are the alternatives? F35, or a co-development with Turkey right? The earlier comes with high restrictions and operational limitations, the other with the risk that Turkey is not as far as China in the aero field and needs foreign support as well. But a co-development with Turkey would open the chance to western techs and weapons and reduce the dependance on China too.
> I doubt that PAF would go for a single engine fighter, because as the F35 shows, you need a highly powerful engine to carry the weight, fuel and payload and it still offers the least flight performance of all stealth fighters that are under development. The main operational costs will come from maintaining the stealth frame anyway and not from the engines or fuel consumption. Even 40 x of these fighters will add high operational costs to PAF.



No no no, you got me wrong, what i meant was PAf going with a design from another Chinese aircraft manufacturer, the one based at Chengdu, the ones who manufactured JF-17 & J-10s, J-7s etc etc. 

This current design seems to be from SAC, while J-20 is from Chengdu design institute or 611 as called. 

But who knows PAF might go with a SAC like design it it meets their criteria.

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## Mani2020

TaimiKhan said:


> No no no, you got me wrong, what i meant was PAf going with a design from another Chinese aircraft manufacturer, the one based at Chengdu, the ones who manufactured JF-17 & J-10s, J-7s etc etc.
> 
> This current design seems to be from SAC, while J-20 is from Chengdu design institute or 611 as called.
> 
> But who knows PAF might go with a SAC like design it it meets their criteria.



Taimi as far as my memory serves me SAC historically has modified or imitated the russian aircrafts apart from the J-8 aircraft... If you go back to the last two decades and see what SAC has come up with , you will find out that the most aircrafts they came up with are twin engine heavy fighter/bombers the last examples are j-11 and J-15 , Their specialty rests with such kind of fighters while on the other hand Chengdu has come up with light single engine multirole fighters with the exception of j-20. Chengdu is also has somewhat superiority over SAC specially when what SAC has produced is merely and imitation while Chengdu has come up with indigenous designs like J-10 , That all factors will influence the PAF decision 

Even if SAC comes up with something like F-35 i.e single engine stealth still PAF going for SAC chances are less specially in the midst of heavy co-operation b/w PAF and Chengdu also with what we heard about the MOU signed b/w both for the development of a stealth light multirole fighter

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## DANGER-ZONE

TaimiKhan said:


> I believe PAf will stick with whatever Chengdu is going to produce, don't think they will go with a SAC design, Both JF-17 & *J-10* are from Chengdu, an J-20 is also from Chengdu, with the level of confidence and relationship we have made with Chengdu, don't think PAF will go somewhere else.
> 
> And i still believe PAF will opt for a single engine stealth platform, twin engine seems not the case.



Isn't it better for us just to confirm J-10B or J-10 sale first  
Why rushing towards gen fighter ?


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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> Isn't it better for us just to confirm J-10B or J-10 sale first
> Why rushing towards gen fighter ?



Who said anything about rushing ??? There is no official source as of yet nor there will be for coming years. 

Its the Chinese members who are proposing that this new design might be for export and a possible sale to pakistan since its for export. 

Its a long long plan, somewhere close to 2020 or may be late then that. Till the 2020 time frame J-10Bs and JF-17s would be fully inducted hopefully, as we still have a few years before the induction of J-10B starts.

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## SuperFieryDragon

not a long then will have more pleasantly surprised

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## mylovepakistan

hottest thread of the day...LOL!!


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Yes.. for flow models.
> 
> the Thunderstrike, Fatigue test facilities exist at chengdu which the joint team of JF-17 has access to.
> 
> ANd yes.. I referred to a 5th gen fighter too.
> The design ability for such an aircraft exists too.. to a large extent.
> You must understand.. that there are not just local graduates sitting at the PAC.
> Graduates from the UK(cranfield etc) , US(Embry Riddle) and all across the globe sit there..
> These people have the qualification and the education in distinct important fields to contribute and teach to local students.
> So the knowledge base exists..
> for eg.. A very detailed study on RAM coatings has been carried out by Pakistan back in the late 90's.. and tested in a modified operational aircraft against multiple radars ,and was found to have worked out pretty well.
> So the knowledge base exists.. what these skills demand are funds to procure even more equipment and material.. which does not exist. So the next best thing..i.e to "borrow" Chinese facilities for such tasks is carried out.




Agreed. For this role, we must applaud the Chinese who always lend us their help.

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## IceCold

KRAIT said:


> One of the practical/realistic posts. You are right, not only your own side, people of our side brag about AURA, AMCA,FGFA which is yet to materialize or inducted. Lets talk about ACs likely to be inducted soon, J-10B,JF blk II on your side, Super Sukhoi,LCA, Rafale on ours...
> 
> China hasn't shown anything about it, yet everyone is assuming it is going to be inducted in next 5 years in their AF.



We are not jumping on anything, we are merely discussing the possibility of doing so after all this is a forum and we all come here to discuss not just the present but also the future.


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## DANGER-ZONE

TaimiKhan said:


> Who said anything about rushing ??? There is no official source as of yet nor there will be for coming years.
> 
> Its the Chinese members who are proposing that this new design might be for export and a possible sale to pakistan since its for export.
> 
> Its a long long plan, somewhere close to 2020 or may be late then that. Till the 2020 time frame J-10Bs and JF-17s would be fully inducted hopefully, as we still have a few years before the induction of J-10B starts.



I really have give up my hopes for J-10B, we ain't going to see it in PAF.
No Memorandum signed, no agreement ... etc just an offer from China and that's it !

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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> I really have give up my hopes for J-10B, we ain't going to see it in PAF.
> No Memorandum signed, no agreement ... etc just an offer from China and that's it !



Exactly what i said in my previous post on this thread, with every passing day the J-10 is deal is becoming more fragile to me

Lol now even wikipedia has removed Pakistan as a customer of J-10 from the page , they too got sick of the delays ... 

Jokes apart but seriously previously the excuse was we are waiting for the MRCA deal to get signed but now it has been for some time now still nothing official about the procurement even the rumors have started to disappear too


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## Pakistanisage

F60/J21 looks like a pretty mean awesome bird.


New Chinese Stealth Carrier Fighter Jet F60/J21 Spotted! - Video


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Exactly what i said in my previous post on this thread, with every passing day the J-10 is deal is becoming more fragile to me
> 
> Lol now even wikipedia has removed Pakistan as a customer of J-10 from the page , they too got sick of the delays ...
> 
> Jokes apart but seriously previously the excuse was we are waiting for the MRCA deal to get signed but now it has been for some time now still nothing official about the procurement even the rumors have started to disappear too


Not even PLAAF has inducted it yet. Fully integrating an advanced radar and new engine will take time to get the tweaks done. I dont think PAF should or would be linking J-10 procurement with MMRCA. Its more of a strategic decision than a reactive one. If J-10B has much more in it than just an answer to someone's purchase.

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## Irfan Baloch

Pakistanisage said:


> F60/J21 looks like a pretty mean awesome bird.
> 
> 
> New Chinese Stealth Carrier Fighter Jet F60/J21 Spotted! - Video



thats J-20 

this so called F-60/ J21 might have only gone as far as the photoshopped image on first page.



hasnain0099 said:


> Not even PLAAF has inducted it yet. Fully integrating an advanced radar and new engine will take time to get the tweaks done. I dont think PAF should or would be linking J-10 procurement with MMRCA. Its more of a strategic decision than a reactive one. If J-10B has much more in it than just an answer to someone's purchase.



small answer

Money

otherwise China can park as many (practically possible) J-10s we want on the PAF airbase

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## SBD-3

Irfan Baloch said:


> thats J-20
> 
> this so called F-60/ J21 might have only gone as far as the photoshopped image on first page.
> 
> 
> 
> small answer
> 
> Money
> 
> otherwise China can park as many (practically possible) J-10s we want on the PAF airbase


This has created some serious buzz. But yes i do agree that the design on truck and so called J-21 mockup dont match up. The design on truck is more skewed towards J-20 like configuration but doesn't necessarily means a J-20.
@J-10B
had money been the case, we would have seen J-10B flying in PLAAF til now since they dont have this constraint. Even the latest images leaked a while ago showed J-10B still and Test flight facilities than at active PLAAF base


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## Rafi

From my sources I can confirm Pakistan has been shown, and is interested in a fifth generation aircraft - from our Chinese brothers, we have been given an extensive presentation on this aircraft, and I reported this first, about a 18 months ago on our sister forum Pakdef.info.

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## SBD-3

Rafi said:


> From my sources I can confirm Pakistan has been shown, and is interested in a fifth generation aircraft - from our Chinese brothers, we have been given an extensive presentation on this aircraft, and I reported this first, about a 18 months ago on our sister forum Pakdef.info.


I can recall two leaks from the past
1- Info by Pshamim sahib that when Gilani (shaheed) met Chinese premier. J-20s prospect was discussed.
2- Leak coming from Chinese forum that PAF delegation had visited CAC for discussion and presentation of a new 5th Gen design.

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## monitor

Before the aircraft being produced some fan boy made a photo shop image and belong it to Pakistan Airforce reason in the image it has Pakistan flag . 
some days some one else would made another image and advocate F-23/F-64 of Pakistan air force .


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## DANGER-ZONE

monitor said:


> Before the aircraft being produced some fan boy made a photo shop image and belong it to Pakistan Airforce reason in the image it has Pakistan flag .
> some days some one else would made another image and advocate F-23/F-64 of Pakistan air force .



Well some Chines Fan Boy made that image, not Pakistani. Its just a Good Friendship Sign and shows their respect towards PAF  Although there is nothing special about this fighter that its for Pakistan but what made me happy that one of the early GCIs of F-60 / J-21 is carrying Pakistani Flag and made by a Chinese Artist. 

But I smell something is Burning here ..... Hope they launch a GCI for BD as well.

And its not a *Photo shop* but a Detailed Digital Art Piece which is drawn for Pakistanis

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## SamranAli

J-10 is good but we have F-16 and further developing JF-17 so should go for J-21 or J-20,


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> Not even PLAAF has inducted it yet. Fully integrating an advanced radar and new engine will take time to get the tweaks done. I dont think PAF should or would be linking J-10 procurement with MMRCA. Its more of a strategic decision than a reactive one. If J-10B has much more in it than just an answer to someone's purchase.



Thats because PLAAF is already busy in inducting J-10A in large numbers and they are satisfied with it , its the PAF that wanted the changes so J-10B is more directed towards PAF needs ..So we can't relate both of them

On another note PLAAF is already busy with other inductions and have surpassed IAF on the other hand PAF is playing a chasing game and any delays in induction will hurt PAF badly


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Thats because PLAAF is already busy in inducting J-10A in large numbers and they are satisfied with it , its the PAF that wanted the changes so J-10B is more directed towards PAF needs ..So we can't relate both of them
> 
> On another note PLAAF is already busy with other inductions and have surpassed IAF on the other hand PAF is playing a chasing game and any delays in induction will hurt PAF badly


well do you honestly think CAC would be taking all this pain just to secure an order of what say max 100?....the insignia on test bed is that of PLAAF not PAF or AVIC.


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## siegecrossbow

danger-zone said:


> Well some Chines Fan Boy made that image, not Pakistani. Its just a Good Friendship Sign and shows their respect towards PAF  Although there is nothing special about this fighter that its for Pakistan but what made me happy that one of the early GCIs of F-60 / J-21 is carrying Pakistani Flag and made by a Chinese Artist.
> 
> But I smell something is Burning here ..... Hope they launch a GCI for BD as well.
> 
> And its not a *Photo shop* but a Detailed Digital Art Piece which is drawn for Pakistanis



Another important reason is.........................................


We simply love Pakistan's paintwork.

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## Myth_buster_1

turbo charged said:


> if we can make a JF-17 land on water then there will be no need for aircraft carrier....we can have one large destroyer carrying racks at its back with JF-17 tied to it and floating along with it.....taking off from water and landing on water is very much possible ...imo slight experimentation is needed.


 
yes, let us also make hovering tanks, flying destroyers, air strips in sky and not to forget skyscrapers in sky as well. what a brilliant idea sir.


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## SBD-3



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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> well do you honestly think CAC would be taking all this pain just to secure an order of what say max 100?....the insignia on test bed is that of PLAAF not PAF or AVIC.



There can be various reasons like J-10b being serving as a test bed for CAC and PLAAF for J-20 or other future aircrafts. Also there has been a history when CAC modified aircrafts for PAF according to PAF needs but those aircrafts never got inducted in PLAAF. Also why PLAAF will be in a hurry when they are already getting J-10As on the other hand PAF apart from 18 F-16 b52s havent inducted a high tech fighter since quite long . So we by every aspect are in a more dire need then China itself

It can be like what Russia did with su-30, specifically modified the basic su-30 as mki, mkm ,mk2 etc for india, china ,malaysia etc but none of such aircraft found its way in Russian airforce which still is using the basic variant . Apart from india all other orders were for less than 100 numbers , in some cases even less than 50. So such examples always exist .There are many other which we can count

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## Mani2020

siegecrossbow said:


> Another important reason is.........................................
> 
> 
> We simply love Pakistan's paintwork.



Send some J-20's i bet you we can do paint job even better on this beast

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> finances I think
> 
> we already got JF-17 and J-10 going for a third one might not leave much resources to spare.
> and also think what role will it play?
> 
> JF-17 being the backbone replacing mirages , A5s and F7PGs jack of all trade, air strike, CAP etc.
> J-10 together with F-16 .. yet again... Multirole .. intercept, SEAD, escort, CAP and strike roles beyond JF-17s limits.
> 
> that pretty much fills everything/.. what is J-61/ F60 going to be? air superiority? replacement of JF-17 and J-10s?
> first one is just starting induction, second one is still on paper in terms of what PAF wants.
> 
> F-*60 *or J21 might be something in the far far future. if I am not mistaken JF-17 and J-10s wont mature in our life time.
> 
> do correct me if its absurd what I say


Sir stealth planes are whole different thing if India gets Steatlh plane we will definitely need to a stealth plane to counter that only thing to be decided could weather we should buy the J-20 or develop a new stealth plane with the help of China which will be best for PAF and also great for China


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> There can be various reasons like J-10b being serving as a test bed for CAC and PLAAF for J-20 or other future aircrafts. Also there has been a history when CAC modified aircrafts for PAF according to PAF needs but those aircrafts never got inducted in PLAAF. Also why PLAAF will be in a hurry when they are already getting J-10As on the other hand PAF apart from 18 F-16 b52s havent inducted a high tech fighter since quite long . So we by every aspect are in a more dire need then China itself
> 
> It can be like what Russia did with su-30, specifically modified the basic su-30 as mki, mkm ,mk2 etc for india, china ,malaysia etc but none of such aircraft found its way in Russian airforce which still is using the basic variant . Apart from india all other orders were for less than 100 numbers , in some cases even less than 50. So such examples always exist .There are many other which we can count


Agreed with the first part (though variants based on PG modifications -J-7G and EGs are still inservice with PLAAF). but i couldn't understand the second part, if you say so that the design is PAF specific then it should not have any thing related to PLAAF requirements. 
Secondly the case of Russia has been very special. The Russian industry has servived the most part of 90s and 00s based on export market. Not to say Su-30 even the SU-35s and Su-34s only saw their induction very recently when Russian Airforce had enough funds to induct them. When Sukhoi was manufacturing SU-30s for India and China, Russians were keeping their fleet alive by purchasing upgrades.


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## Tehmasib




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## killerx

poor photo shop man like the jet


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## mil-avia

*F-60 / J-21 aircraft with Pakistan Air Force roundel and national flag :




1286 × 909 pixels

This very large image above was posted earlier by Hu Songshan in another thread, I partly rotated it to 90 degrees. Related link. *

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## ziaulislam

Mani2020 said:


> Exactly what i said in my previous post on this thread, with every passing day the J-10 is deal is becoming more fragile to me
> 
> Lol now even wikipedia has removed Pakistan as a customer of J-10 from the page , they too got sick of the delays ...
> 
> Jokes apart but seriously previously the excuse was we are waiting for the MRCA deal to get signed but now it has been for some time now still nothing official about the procurement even the rumors have started to disappear too



well techincally there hasnt been any delay..the date was fixed at 2015..delay will only happen if that date passes..


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> Agreed with the first part (though variants based on PG modifications -J-7G and EGs are still inservice with PLAAF). but i couldn't understand the second part, if you say so that the design is PAF specific then it should not have any thing related to PLAAF requirements.
> Secondly the case of Russia has been very special. The Russian industry has servived the most part of 90s and 00s based on export market. Not to say Su-30 even the SU-35s and Su-34s only saw their induction very recently when Russian Airforce had enough funds to induct them. When Sukhoi was manufacturing SU-30s for India and China, Russians were keeping their fleet alive by purchasing upgrades.



Then what about UAE F-16s E/F which were specifically designed for UAEAF and never got their place in USAF . US was never short of finances but the case was US priorities were different based on F-22, F-15 latest versions etc similarly who knows Chinese priorities would be jumping from J-10A to J-20 which by every aspect is a better aircraft compared to J-10b 

F-16 Barak, Sufa and Netz were specifically designed for ISAF which includes all the major avionics and radar of israeli origin and specifically designed for them though this might be a slightly different thing but still....

Also Pakistan is the major importer of Chinese defence equipment plus the relationship is of a great strategic importance and with Chinese industry flourishing and high on finances this is not a big deal for them

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## Yeti

Mani2020 said:


> There can be various reasons like J-10b being serving as a test bed for CAC and PLAAF for J-20 or other future aircrafts. Also there has been a history when CAC modified aircrafts for PAF according to PAF needs but those aircrafts never got inducted in PLAAF. Also why PLAAF will be in a hurry when they are already getting J-10As on the other hand PAF apart from 18 F-16 b52s havent inducted a high tech fighter since quite long . So we by every aspect are in a more dire need then China itself
> 
> It can be like what Russia did with su-30, specifically modified the basic su-30 as mki, mkm ,mk2 etc for india, china ,malaysia etc but none of such aircraft found its way in Russian airforce which still is using the basic variant . Apart from india all other orders were for less than 100 numbers , in some cases even less than 50. So such examples always exist .There are many other which we can count


 

Agree with your post but Russia has now ordered a modified version of the SU-30 for its airforce which is similar to MKI they call it the SU-30 SM.


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## Mani2020

Yeti said:


> Agree with your post but Russia has now ordered a modified version of the SU-30 for its airforce which is similar to MKI they call it the SU-30 SM.



But they got it quite a late compared to delivering the aircrafts to India , China and ,malaysia etc If you remember the su-30 mki was introduced in IAF in 2002 and russia ordered the aircraft almost a decade later

Also Su-30sm is not that much similar to mki in that the TVS of su-30sm are based on mki's TVS but there are no canards neither the avionics are of french and isareli origin like in the case of mki..so the difference will always be there ...similarly the mkm is different from mki and same can be said for mk2... so these are versions with differences customized according to the priorities of respective air forces


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## Yeti

Mani2020 said:


> But they got it quite a late compared to delivering the aircrafts to India , China and ,malaysia etc If you remember the su-30 mki was introduced in IAF in 2002 and russia ordered the aircraft almost a decade later
> 
> Also Su-30sm is not that much similar to mki in that the TVS of su-30sm are based on mki's TVS but there are no canards neither the avionics are of french and isareli origin like in the case of mki..so the difference will always be there ...similarly the mkm is different from mki and same can be said for mk2... so these are versions with differences customized according to the priorities of respective air forces


 
Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia

The model ordered by the Russian military is a localized version of the Indian Su-30MKI. Earlier, Komsomolsk-on-Amur delivered to the Air Force four localized Su-30MK2s.



Your thinking of the SU-35 which has no candards this is SU-30 SM

The two-seat *Sukhoi Su-30SM is based on the Su-30MKI *variant supplied to India, and features thrust-vectoring engines and canard foreplanes.


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## Mani2020

Yeti said:


> Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia
> 
> The model ordered by the Russian military is a &#8220;localized&#8221; version of the &#8220;Indian&#8221; Su-30MKI. Earlier, Komsomolsk-on-Amur delivered to the Air Force four &#8220;localized&#8221; Su-30MK2&#8217;s.
> 
> 
> 
> Your thinking of the SU-35 which has no candards this is SU-30 SM
> 
> The two-seat *Sukhoi Su-30SM is based on the Su-30MKI *variant supplied to India, and features thrust-vectoring engines and canard foreplanes.



but still the difference in avionics will be there as you cant expect russia to develop identical systems to french and israelis present in mki and vice versa ...the difference will always be there ...anywayz i think we shouldnot further discuss it here otherwise the thread will be derailed

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Then what about UAE F-16s E/F which were specifically designed for UAEAF and never got their place in USAF . US was never short of finances but the case was US priorities were different based on F-22, F-15 latest versions etc similarly who knows Chinese priorities would be jumping from J-10A to J-20 which by every aspect is a better aircraft compared to J-10b
> 
> F-16 Barak, Sufa and Netz were specifically designed for ISAF which includes all the major avionics and radar of israeli origin and specifically designed for them though this might be a slightly different thing but still....
> 
> Also Pakistan is the major importer of Chinese defence equipment plus the relationship is of a great strategic importance and with Chinese industry flourishing and high on finances this is not a big deal for them


Bhai you're confusing things up. 
1-USAF did not funded the development of Block 60, niether did LMCO out of love of UAEAF. The costs of development were born by UAE. 
2-IAF programs were not distinct development like block 60 but rather platform funding coming from US and avionics coming from Israel. 
3-Yes Pakistan has been a major importer, yes we had enjoyed the luxury of financing from China. But even the initial contribution to JFT program was made in hard cash (subsequent procurment was made on credit). And more importantly, why would Chinese be not interested in a platform which offers a significant increase over its current inventory for the time being. If somebody speaks about J-20, it is well know even from Chinese sources that China will not induct it in large number. If J-10B offers significantly over J-10A and J-11B in service with Chinese airforce why would they not consider its induction (conservatively speaking, say as a stop gap). 
All my point was that J-10B development will take significantly longer time due to issues of inducting nascent technologies in a platform. And PLAAF will like it as much as anyother airforce around with an interest (e.g. PAF).


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## Black Widow

Tehmasib said:


>




I doubt it is real pic, Its look like Hoax,.... We all know chinese members use CGI to create hoax. This is not the way Fuselage carried on truck.. See the picture below how exactly it is carried... 


WHy I doubt this Pic: 
1. The right wing is down where as left wing is up, why so??? If You ask me to carry such thing I will balance it, the Wings should be parallel to earth. 

2. The camo/cloth wrapping it is tight, Usually when any machine carried, the covers are loose.


THIS Is how things are carried..


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## Irfan Baloch

I agree BW

why the most sophisticated and sensitive plane model titled on top of its carrier? such an expensive piece of work and such shabby securing? looks like almost going to tip down on the road.

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## Jango

The reason it is tilted maybe that the roads, tunnels, turns were tight, hence the full wingspan could not pass through. So, to shorten the wingspan or breadth of the plane, it is tilted.

Secondly, the elevators and vertical stabilizers are taken off, the canopy is also off from what i deduce.

Thirdly, there were 3/4 police cars, 1 propaganda van, a couple of SWAT vans, some Range Rovers, some other SUV's, a civilian bus (engineers), a civilian truck. And the road is closed, and the people ar ebeing instructed not to take photos or anything (they still do).

So i doubt that it's a hoax. It might not be a plane, rather a preliminary wind-tunnel or testing model, but it sure is something real and in the pipeline of development.

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## Black Widow

nuclearpak said:


> The reason it is tilted maybe that the roads, tunnels, turns were tight, hence the full wingspan could not pass through. So, to shorten the wingspan or breadth of the plane, it is tilted.
> 
> Secondly, the elevators and vertical stabilizers are taken off, the canopy is also off from what i deduce.
> 
> Thirdly, there were 3/4 police cars, 1 propaganda van, a couple of SWAT vans, some Range Rovers, some other SUV's, a civilian bus (engineers), a civilian truck. And the road is closed, and the people ar ebeing instructed not to take photos or anything (they still do).
> 
> So i doubt that it's a hoax. It might not be a plane, rather a preliminary wind-tunnel or testing model, but it sure is something real and in the pipeline of development.




We can wait for 2-3 years if it is truly some plane, it will uncovered. See this Pic







This is Su30 or J11 Fuselage, It is chinese and look how sophistically they are carrying it. Now look at the first pic, Nothing is clamping the Chiese fifth gen fighter. It looks like some one kept the frame over truck. 


Having said that I will say that Communists have history of surprise, No one knew MiG25 for many years, Who knows its something like that only... 

Note: It can not be a wind tunnel model, coz now no one makes big wind tunnel models...


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## Jango

Not a wind tunnel model, but just a prelimenary model.

We might not see the real thing for another 5 years.

the point you raised is a valid one.

But also keep in mid that the pic you posted has a plane which is more or less circular, hence more prone to roll overs, and has a jig to keep it in place.

The Chinese plane has it's wings in place, and is stable. 

As I have said before, it is not a real thing, but a model.

BTW, does China have any large Anechoic Chambers??


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## Black Widow

nuclearpak said:


> Not a wind tunnel model, but just a prelimenary model.
> 
> We might not see the real thing for another 5 years.
> 
> the point you raised is a valid one.
> 
> But also keep in mid that the pic you posted has a plane which is more or less circular, hence more prone to roll overs, and has a jig to keep it in place.
> 
> The Chinese plane has it's wings in place, and is stable.
> 
> As I have said before, it is not a real thing, but a model.
> 
> *BTW, does China have any large Anechoic Chambers??*




I think they will have, Chinese space and fighter plane program are more developed than India, If India can make one, china can...


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## ziaulislam

regardlessly, the picture appearred in reputed journals...thgh i agree it doesnt make sense carrying it in such away


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## Manticore

More F-60 pictures on the road









YF-22





F-35

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## Bratva

Black Widow said:


> We can wait for 2-3 years if it is truly some plane, it will uncovered. See this Pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is Su30 or J11 Fuselage*, It is chinese and look how sophistically they are carrying it. Now look at the first pic, Nothing is clamping the Chiese fifth gen fighter. It looks like some one kept the frame over truck.
> 
> 
> Having said that I will say that Communists have history of surprise, No one knew MiG25 for many years, Who knows its something like that only...
> 
> Note: It can not be a wind tunnel model, coz now no one makes big wind tunnel models...



JF-17 Fuselage

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## Nishan_101

mil-avia said:


> *F-60 / J-21 aircraft with Pakistan Air Force roundel and national flag :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1286 × 909 pixels
> 
> This very large image above was posted earlier by Hu Songshan in another thread, I partly rotated it to 90 degrees. Related link. *


 
If PAC is working on this then it will be a great thing for PAF.


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## Manticore

More pics about Shenyang 4th generation stealthy fighter:


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## HAIDER

Seems copy of US 34 platypus .


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## Mani2020

HAIDER said:


> Seems copy of US 34 platypus .



Its a russian su-34 and not US platypus , btw from where does the covered plane resembles with this one , care to tell


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## HAIDER

My fault i suppose to write SU 34 and wrote US 34...anyway canopy , wing dimension, radar nose etc etc...


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## regular

Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?


Yes!!! Mr. Qaid-e-Azam our great leader founder told/guided us that don't spend beyond your powers otherwise U guyz gonna go broke and India will overcome U.....


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## killerx

Yeti said:


> Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia
> 
> The model ordered by the Russian military is a localized version of the Indian Su-30MKI. Earlier, Komsomolsk-on-Amur delivered to the Air Force four localized Su-30MK2s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your thinking of the SU-35 which has no candards this is SU-30 SM
> 
> The two-seat *Sukhoi Su-30SM is based on the Su-30MKI *variant supplied to India, and features thrust-vectoring engines and canard foreplanes.




old story mate


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## qinglong-china

cctv-4 report: j-21
video: http://news.cntv.cn/world/20120726/118483.shtml

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## Imran Khan

pics not visible sir qinglong-china


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## qinglong-china

Imran Khan said:


> pics not visible sir qinglong-china


sorry, I always fail to add a image from url. I am thinking of a way


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## qinglong-china

Sounds that maybe there is a third type of four-generation machine. but I'm not sure.
They spoke too subtle.

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## Mani2020

*@qinglong-china*

the aircraft in the picture is f-35 and not j-21 or other chinese aircraft


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## Xracer

qinglong-china said:


> cctv-4 report: j-21
> video: [½ñÈÕ¹Ø×¢]ÃÀÏÈ½øÕ½»úÔú¶ÑÈÕ±¾ ÖÐ¹ú²»¾åÌôÐÆ(20120726)_ÐÂÎÅÌ¨_ÖÐ¹úÍøÂçµçÊÓÌ¨


isn,t that J20 so why are you calling it j21 kindly reply


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## HARMONIA DRAGONZORD

J-21 Hybrid F-22 + F-35 ??

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## krash

Mani2020 said:


> *@qinglong-china*
> 
> the aircraft in the picture is f-35 and not j-21 or other chinese aircraft


 
Those are F-22s not F-35s.



Xracer said:


> isn,t that J20 so why are you calling it j21 kindly reply


 
There is no J-20 in those pics. First one is of F-22s flying in formation and the, second one is of the new Chinese 5th Gen aircraft claimed to be the J-21.

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## ababeel22

if there is any less subtle evidence that j21 even exits then kindly post. thanks


qinglong-china said:


> Sounds that maybe there is a third type of four-generation machine. but I'm not sure.
> They spoke too subtle.


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## ababeel22

********.com - New Chinese Stealth Carrier Fighter Jet F60/J21 Spotted!!


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## Mani2020

krash said:


> Those are F-22s not F-35s.
> 
> .



Form the intakes it resembled to a F-35, then i may be wrong , the stabliators looks more like of a f-22 . Image is blurred


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## CHNTiger

J-10perhaps....we may need several years waitting for J-20..


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## graphican

ababeel22 said:


> ********.com - New Chinese Stealth Carrier Fighter Jet F60/J21 Spotted!!



Is the plane shown in above video not J-20?


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## Safriz

China has yet to stablize mass production of Ws-10 engine and iron out the problems with WS-15
Engine..
Only then anybody will get J-10B and J-20.... Including chinese airforce themselves...
Kayani is in Moscow lobbying for a steady supply of RD-93 , if deal is made only then we may see an increased induction of Jf-17 in PAF.
Engines are holding back all chinese aircraft manufacturing and in turn any further inductions in PAF?
Until the time china perfect the art of jet engine manufacturing...we can dream what we want but nothing new is going to come to PAF.

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## batmannow

veekysingh said:


> soft loan.


A frienship, which is beyond skies & deeper thn sea!

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## KRAIT

I think prime focus is on constant manufacturing of JF-17 as pointed out by Safriz, with upgradation and getting J-10B which will be huge boost. 

F-60/J-21 is most probably on discussion table and I think its commercial production will start near 2020. So Pakistan can expect it to induct them by 2022. 

Hope any aviation expert can clear the possible future induction.

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## Malik Alashter

Irfan Baloch said:


> finances I think
> 
> we already got JF-17 and J-10 going for a third one might not leave much resources to spare.
> and also think what role will it play?
> 
> JF-17 being the backbone replacing mirages , A5s and F7PGs jack of all trade, air strike, CAP etc.
> J-10 together with F-16 .. yet again... Multirole .. intercept, SEAD, escort, CAP and strike roles beyond JF-17s limits.
> 
> that pretty much fills everything/.. what is J-61/ F60 going to be? air superiority? replacement of JF-17 and J-10s?
> first one is just starting induction, second one is still on paper in terms of what PAF wants.
> 
> F-*60 *or J21 might be something in the far far future. if I am not mistaken JF-17 and J-10s wont mature in our life time.
> 
> do correct me if its absurd what I say


It's the need and the cababilty of the opponent that matter not what u have or planning to have within five years from now India will possess the fifth gen fighter from Russia and the local one in that time you'll be starving to get a fifth gen fighter to stand against the Indian total superiority.

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## rcrmj

I do not think there is going to be j-21, as the new stealth prototype j-31 (the 'bastard') shows we have two 5th gen (j-20 and this one) in development, no such country can financially afford so many 5th gen fighters... Besides SAC made it very clear that j-31 project was not funded by the state, so the possibility of getting inducted to PLAAF was very thin, and their bet was on international market and PLAN....it's risky, but if it succeeded Pakistan will be on the VIP list..

So Id reckon the title should be changed to J-31 of paf

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## SBD-3

J-31's latest pic

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

money is the issue for us , 
no money , no honey ..............
so this aircraft is only a dream for us at the moment ..

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## 帅的一匹

We mount WS10A on twin engine fighters like j16 and j11b, test on J10b was completed successfully as well. The production volume is low, hope it will get fast. The PLAAF requirement for WS10A is mammoth, Pakistan may have to wait for a while .


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## SBD-3

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> money is the issue for us ,
> no money , no honey ..............
> so this aircraft is only a dream for us at the moment ..


It is still a protoype in nascent stages. There is no need for getting too excited at this stage. If there is a need and the program is industrially mature enough, then it would make sense to look into it.


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## madmusti

Dont think so !!!


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## batmannow

wanglaokan said:


> We mount WS10A on twin engine fighters like j16 and j11b, test on J10b was completed successfully as well. The production volume is low, hope it will get fast. The PLAAF requirement for WS10A is mammoth, Pakistan may have to wait for a while .



hope fully, just a while but not long!
go ahead china our wishes are with you!


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## ababeel22

nothing about the maiden test flight of j31 for 10 mins here???


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## abdulbarijan



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## kafumanpk

Why did Chinese want to develop stealth aircraft? If only to protect themselves, then attack aircraft is absolutely no need to research and development. Asian countries must be highly vigilant, Chinese ambitions in the ever-expanding, must be wary of military aggression. Even if Pakistan and Chinese are friends, but it should also dike Chinese more territorial claims. Chinese army is infiltrated Kashmir, they will be hanging around and not ready to leave. Chinese are a cancer in Asia, the long-term potential threat is your real enemy, absolutely do not believe that your enemy. But you can take full advantage of them in the short term, require more assistance, more money and weapons.


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## PakShaheen79

kafumanpk said:


> Why did Chinese want to develop stealth aircraft? If only to protect themselves, then attack aircraft is absolutely no need to research and development. Asian countries must be highly vigilant, Chinese ambitions in the ever-expanding, must be wary of military aggression. Even if Pakistan and Chinese are friends, but it should also dike Chinese more territorial claims. Chinese army is infiltrated Kashmir, they will be hanging around and not ready to leave. Chinese are a cancer in Asia, the long-term potential threat is your real enemy, absolutely do not believe that your enemy. But you can take full advantage of them in the short term, require more assistance, more money and weapons.



How old are you? Seriously!!


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## PiyaraPakistan

Mr. Kafumanpk just want to say you have got china Phobia.


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## TAC

Malik Alashter said:


> It's the need and the cababilty of the opponent that matter not what u have or planning to have within five years from now India will possess the fifth gen fighter from Russia and the local one in that time you'll be starving to get a fifth gen fighter to stand against the Indian total superiority.



You need to go check your timelines - latest news is that Indian fifth gen will suffer heavy delay due to Indias insistance on having its own input. They will be lucky if they get 1 or 2 not fully capable aircraft by end of 2017 - hardly 'total superiority' is it?


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## kafumanpk

It's just a mere imitation of F22 and F35 shape, and I do not think this is a stealth aircraft, it is only a Third-generation aircraft, the Chinese version of the F18. Pakistan is an important ally of the United States, your country can get the most advanced F35 from the United States.


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## TheRafael00000

kafumanpk said:


> It's just a mere imitation of F22 and F35 shape, and I do not think this is a stealth aircraft, it is only a Third-generation aircraft, the Chinese version of the F18. Pakistan is an important ally of the United States, your country can get the most advanced F35 from the United States.



Pakistan should not break ties with US. Even though US is now in debt,yet it got stealth air crafts. Pakistan must keep the bond strong to get the f-35. If Pakistan want to eliminate Taliban, US may provide monetary helps for Pakistan. So Pakistan is getting free money for solving own problems. So don't lose this opportunity.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

nice dreams


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## SBD-3

kafumanpk said:


> It's just a mere imitation of F22 and F35 shape, and I do not think this is a stealth aircraft, it is only a Third-generation aircraft, the Chinese version of the F18.


Your speculations are significantly overblown here. SAC has been producing 3rd Gen (4th Gen standard by the rest of the world) for around a decade now. And given the appearences of J-15, J-15S, J-11B and J-11BS before should be more than sufficient to prove that SAC has moved on from just 3rd Gen standard. Of course, we can not make an earnest assessment about J-31 since all we know is, its structure. However, by structure it is not a simple 3rd gen aircraft and do possess fairly stealthy airframe. As more and more information is revealed, then someone would be able to make a more realistic assessment. 


> Pakistan is an important ally of the United States, your country can get the most advanced F35 from the United States.


Something that i also suspect. Given the strategic shift in Pakistan's afghan policy which is now more accumulative towards all other groups as well, the PAK-US relationships are expected to improve in future. Just like we had Block 52s available to us and given we continue with our good track of keeping US tech isolated, there is every likelyhood that we may, one day, be offered F-35. However, to consider Pakistan amongst the early recipients of F-35 would also be an unrealistic assumption. Moreover, It would also be interesting to see the reaction of PAF to such an offer given the availability of alternative options from China.

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## mylovepakistan

hasnain0099 said:


> Something that i also suspect. Given the strategic shift in Pakistan's afghan policy which is now more accumulative towards all other groups as well, the PAK-US relationships are expected to improve in future. Just like we had Block 52s available to us and given we continue with our good track of keeping US tech isolated, there is every likelyhood that we may, one day, be offered F-35. However, to consider Pakistan amongst the early recipients of F-35 would also be an unrealistic assumption. Moreover, It would also be interesting to see the reaction of PAF to such an offer given the availability of alternative options from China.



depends on the elections coming next year...
just in the case if imran khan is elected as PM then he is going no more with this war on terror and also he is not going to allow drones anymore......so this may affect US-PAK strategic relationships...


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## abdulbarijan

mylovepakistan said:


> depends on the elections coming next year...
> just in the case if imran khan is elected as PM then he is going no more with this war on terror and also he is not going to allow drones anymore......so this may affect US-PAK strategic relationships...



Dude ... most of the time leadership is not selected .... it is staged as being selected by "free will of the people" through "elections" and ends up with the wrong people in power....
Just look at Ron Paul who was amongst most popular in the USA and got screwed out, there is no doubt that PMLN,MQM and PPP will pursue to even combine to not let Imran in to power as he defies the USA policies of drones etc ... 
Dont forget in our country even the ones who won the election were NOT given power ... (the election's in Yahya's era), it can only happen if the entire public along with people like imran khan etc combine, people who openly oppose drone attacks and have the balls to say on national television that they will go anti-USA if thats what it takes to get the country out of crisis ....

And the military is used as a pawn by these staged governments that use them to kill their own ... and not even react to threats to national security in the name of collateral damage and the great war on terror which causes deaths on both sides .... 
Who is dying ?
A army man who is used as a tool by the top hierarchy .... a simple villager whose seeking revenge on USA due to the "small" "minute" collateral damage which caused him his family ....

But this wont cross anyones mind .... cuz all we can see is Malala Yusuf Zai and others which the media portrays... the same media that sold its soul that is ....

*IM SORRY TO GO OFF TOPIC BUT LIKE ANY OTHER PAKISTANI WHO STILL HAS A HEART THAT IS BEATING, IT'S SICKENING TO SEE OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS DIE IN THE NAME OF THIS STUPID WAR!!*

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## applesauce

kafumanpk said:


> It's just a mere imitation of F22 and F35 shape, and I do not think this is a stealth aircraft, it is only a Third-generation aircraft, the Chinese version of the F18. Pakistan is an important ally of the United States, your country can get the most advanced F35 from the United States.



good thing what you "think" doesnt matter in the real world. and even if it was a mix of f-22/35 how would it not be stealth? are you saying f-22/35 isnt 5 gen?

pakistan is a current "ally" of the US if the f-35 is offer they certainly have that choice but that is a choice they'll have to make(well them and their wallets)


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## Manticore

> "I can only hope that when the time comes, Finland will list more to the Canadian Department of National Defence than on the Norwegian" fighter project "...
> The Canadians have Decided to calculate the potential usage of their F-35: s 2:42 years, but 12 of those years are labeled "development and delivery time" Thus without any routine flights.
> I will calculate this most benevolent and judge thatthis add six years of additional flight time for the fleet.
> So 36 years of active duty.
> They plan to fly those 65 F-35A: s 15 hour a month and that amounts to a total of 421,200 hours.
> 
> They have also estimated that the total cost of these 42 years will be 44.82 billion CAD.
> If you consider that they actually will be used only for 36 years, that comes down to 106,363 CAD / hour or &#8364; 81,357 / hour or 702 350 SEK / hour. (Approx: 600.000 NOK / hour)
> In any currency the amount is staggering ...
> 
> When it's time to retire the fleet in 2052, the planes have Utilized only some 70% of their expected life flight, but that these hourly costs in the
> air, it is not hard to understand that F-35 pilots will mostly do their flying on the ground ...
> 
> Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/reports...dex-eng.asp # 3i "



Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/reports...dex-eng.asp # 3i "


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## dexter

What If...


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## wakapdf

No money, wait for new government then make plans. We are broke as hell right now


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## naseem shah

TheRafael00000 said:


> Pakistan should not break ties with US. Even though US is now in debt,yet it got stealth air crafts. Pakistan must keep the bond strong to get the f-35. If Pakistan want to eliminate Taliban, US may provide monetary helps for Pakistan. So Pakistan is getting free money for solving own problems. So don't lose this opportunity.



the problem is pakistan cant get them free of cost for that we have to pay money and it is too expensive for us to buy


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## RazorMC

We're not getting the F-35s even if we had teh money. There is strict control over who gets that tech and who doesn't.

And IMO it's better to stick with less advanced aircraft rather than risk buying from string-happy "_allies_"

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## araz

The F16 in all probability is the last fighter that PAF will get from the west. We have to look eastwards for our needs for a 5th generation fighter. .In the next five yrs most of the platofrms that we see in their infancy will mature and we will have a much better idea odf how things have fared in China. We will be going for a chinese platform which will be lo visibility / stealth.
Araz

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## Wright

Well China is the only real option in the East, Russia has not been to willing to sell to Pakistan. 

Iran could also be another possible supplier.


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## Safriz

Wright said:


> Well China is the only real option in the East, Russia has not been to willing to sell to Pakistan.
> 
> Iran could also be another possible supplier.



Exactly..
Any future weapons should be from china or elsewhere...

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## jupiter2007

batmannow said:


> A frienship, which is beyond skies & deeper thn sea!



Yes, it's true but we can't put all the eggs in the same basket. Pakistan needs to invest in Defense projects with other Muslim/non-Muslim countries, for example: Turkey, Iran, GCC, Egypt, Malaysia, Ukraine, CAR states, Thailand, Brazil, South Africa, Korea, European countries, Japan, etc.

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## Storm Force

Juipter re


> Yes, it's true but we can't put all the eggs in the same basket. Pakistan needs to invest in Defense projects with other Muslim/non-Muslim countries, for example: Turkey, Iran, GCC, Egypt, Malaysia, Ukraine, CAR states, Thailand, Brazil, South Africa, Korea, European countries, Japan, etc.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...th-fighter-aircraft-paf-11.html#ixzz2JaSF087Q



I HOPE YOU REALISE HOWE MUCH IS REQUIRED TO INVEST IN JOINT PROJECTS.

You have just stated a DOZEN different states to share defense projects.

JUST HOW MANY $BILLIONS do pakistan have.

NOBODY is going ti share technology TIME & EFFORT with you without $$$$$$$$$$

MONEY IS WAT COUNTS


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## muse

Storm Force said:


> Juipter re
> 
> 
> You have just stated a DOZEN different states to share defense projects.
> JUST HOW MANY $BILLIONS do pakistan have.
> NOBODY is going ti share technology TIME & EFFORT with you without $$$$$$$$$$
> MONEY IS WAT COUNTS



And really it's not like any of these are lining up to do JV --- Pakistan should concentrate on long term projects, before anything else to train engineers in specialties and sub specialties and to create facilities for these engineers.

But of course this is wishful thinking - geniuses will come up with more F16

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## sancho

araz said:


> The F16 in all probability is the last fighter that PAF will get from the west. We have to look eastwards for our needs for a 5th generation fighter. .In the next five yrs most of the platofrms that we see in their infancy will mature and we will have a much better idea odf how things have fared in China. We will be going for a chinese platform which will be lo visibility / stealth.
> Araz



When you say west, does that include Turkey as well? Imo, sooner or later Pakistan must increase it's relations to Turkey to a level, that allows JVs or co-developments, since they might be one of the few countries that would allow such things, but most importantly to get an alternative to China as well!
China of course offers Pakistan way more than the US ever had, but replacing dependance on one country, by beeing dependent on another won't help you either. Diversifying is the key, splitting the dependence on different foreign reliable partners on the one side, improving own capabilities on the other.

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## muse

Some of our forum members do not even allow the possibility that Pakistan must do all that t can to create a situation that that they do not need to go West for armaments - it's always go to the West for these people - I'm not suggesting that we close any doors, but not taking the opportunities offered to be make our own, is in my opinion, criminal, it's treachery.

But wait a minute muse, how come, you are so anti-West ? -- Not anti-West at all, quite the contrary - however, should Pakistan be an independent country? If yes, then we must begin now to be able to design and manufacture our own, right -- see, no where in the near or middle term future, between 5 to 20 years, will the West (read US) get the Islam venom out of it's system and within that time frame US policy will continue to be seek to deny any competitors to it's claims of global hegemony (read more wars, wars that will by definition be upon Muslim majority countries) which will continue to create domestic and international political problems.

Turkiye are very comfortable wit the West, Are Pakistan? not really - Will they be any time soon? not really -- so lets plan accordingly

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## hurt

Brothers!

J-31 maybe become FC-2!
Now is your chance for participation in this project.


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## muse

hurt said:


> Brothers!
> 
> J-31 maybe become FC-2!
> Now is your chance for participation in this project.




How? How can Pakistani engineers and industry (even if uniformed) participate in this development?


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## hurt

muse said:


> How? How can Pakistani engineers and industry (even if uniformed) participate in this development?



Same as FC-1.The difference is that FC-2 closer to complete


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## muse

This thread now has 4 pages - but we have very little information about this platform and it's capabilities, the avionics involved and the materials as well - now to my thinking aircraft such as J60/31 and J20 are X planes, they are not meant to be production aircraft but test beds of sorts, I say this in the context that Pakistan Air Force may want to consider if a an Air Dominance/superiority platform is needed for the PAF or not and if yes, what kinds of capabilities this ought to mean and how this requirement can be met.

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## araz

sancho said:


> When you say west, does that include Turkey as well? Imo, sooner or later Pakistan must increase it's relations to Turkey to a level, that allows JVs or co-developments, since they might be one of the few countries that would allow such things, but most importantly to get an alternative to China as well!
> China of course offers Pakistan way more than the US ever had, but replacing dependance on one country, by beeing dependent on another won't help you either. Diversifying is the key, splitting the dependence on different foreign reliable partners on the one side, improving own capabilities on the other.



All turkish aerial assets are of US origin. Till such time that they have indegenousaerial platform JVs would be pointless. there maybe cooperation on individual items or missiles but unlikely on aerial assetts.
However if Turkey approaches chinese for a venture and invites PAF to join in and we have the resources we may do so.
Araz


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## jupiter2007

Storm Force said:


> Juipter re
> 
> I HOPE YOU REALISE HOWE MUCH IS REQUIRED TO INVEST IN JOINT PROJECTS.
> 
> You have just stated a DOZEN different states to share defense projects.
> 
> JUST HOW MANY $BILLIONS do pakistan have.
> 
> NOBODY is going ti share technology TIME & EFFORT with you without $$$$$$$$$$
> 
> MONEY IS WAT COUNTS



Pakistan is already involve in various projects with defense companies from different countries, for example, South Africa, France (Mirage III/V and Agosta), Russia and Ukraine for Mi-17 and Tank (T-80) support, China for Tank (Al-Khalid, Al-Zarrar), Frigates, Missile Corvette, missile boat, Submarine, artillery, MLRS, Jf-17 and FC-20, Saab for AWACS system, Brazil MLRS, Itlay for Radar and UAV, Malaysia for Joint UAV project. There were some projects in pipeline with Turkey but due to finding they were put on hold in 2012.


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## ahussains

I am sure that Pakistan will get twin engine fighter from China or may be invole in the devlopment of any other twin engine aircraft along with china


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## IceCold

Isn't the thread title misleading since there is no F-60/J-31 of the PAF! Why are threads being opened which are not even based on speculation but mere fantasy and Photoshopped images.

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## chinapakistan

sancho said:


> When you say west, does that include Turkey as well? Imo, sooner or later Pakistan must increase it's relations to Turkey to a level, that allows JVs or co-developments, since they might be one of the few countries that would allow such things, but most importantly to get an alternative to China as well!
> China of course offers Pakistan way more than the US ever had, but replacing dependance on one country, by beeing dependent on another won't help you either. Diversifying is the key, splitting the dependence on different foreign reliable partners on the one side, improving own capabilities on the other.



What the hell logic, indian bought and is buying much more from Russia, does that mean it replated dependance of your country? If what you said were true, your whole country had been sold to Russia many times.


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## Gentelman

well name of this thread is sick...
J-31 is under development..
and it wasnot offered nor under consideration by PAF and here name is J-31 of PAF...


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## graphican

hasnain0099 said:


> *Just like we had Block 52s available to us and given we continue with our good track of keeping US tech isolated, there is every likelyhood that we may, one day, be offered F-35.*



Pakistan could only get what it has already got, Block-52 at best. Remember F-16 despite of its potential and usefulness to us, it is 2 steps down in the latest technology USA uses. Going for something which USA is using itself is unrealistic. Look at this side that Block-60 weren't on the offer for us. 

At the moment world is re-aligning and power-centers are shifting from USA to Europe and China. USA in South Asia needs allies and enemies. Having chosen China as a foe and all other countries who are close allies of China, US is only going to see its future through this perspective. Pakistan could only have received F-35 if it was a very close ally with USA and at the same time a declared opponent of China and Iran. But at the same time, India must not have been aligned with USA and must had neutral relationship with China but not a foe of it. Only and only then Pakistan could have gained the value which Taiwan enjoys. 

Now IFs doesn't end here. USA and Pakistan at the same time must had enjoyed strong and dependable relationships and our whole fantasy ends here. Trusting and dependability on USA? Haha Funny! Forget USA and F-35 my friend.. we weren't able to get Javelin because India was one of bigger potential buys and we are cooking Khayali Pulao for possible F-35? Unrealistic - pretty darn unrealistic!

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## trident2010

Any new information about the J-31?


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## gangsta_rap

trident2010 said:


> Any new information about the J-31?



Probably won't see anything until they make an indigenous engine for it and start mass producing the jet.


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## zxmint

Compare to J-20, the technology of J21(its official name is J21 in China) or F-60 is more mature and it seems like PLAN is considering to purchase it and deploy it on the Liaoning CV in the future.


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## jupiter2007

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan is already involve in various projects with defense companies from different countries, for example, South Africa, France (Mirage III/V and Agosta), Russia and Ukraine for Mi-17 and Tank (T-80) support, China for Tank (Al-Khalid, Al-Zarrar), Frigates, Missile Corvette, missile boat, Submarine, artillery, MLRS, Jf-17 and FC-20, Saab for AWACS system, Brazil MLRS, Itlay for Radar and UAV, Malaysia for Joint UAV project. There were some projects in pipeline with Turkey but due to finding they were put on hold in 2012.



I forgot to mention about Transport planes option for PAF/PA. Pakistan may consider acquiring surplus C-130 from Australia. Future option is to acquire C-235/295 (Spain/Indonesia) or Y-9 from China.
For 4/5 generation fighter, Pakistan can join Chinese J-31 or join Turkey for it's fighter project.
There was talk about Turkey, Indonesia and South Korea are joining to build a fighter. Pakistan can also join them, four nations together can start a 4/5 generation fighter.

Future attack helicopter project is going to be with Turkey, not China. Pakistan needs western technology and Chinese tech is still 5-10 years behind western tech.


Pakistan may also go for 3 Turkish design TF-2000 AAW FFG in 2016, enter service date will be 2019-2020.

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## Nishan_101

jupiter2007 said:


> I forgot to mention about Transport planes option for PAF/PA. Pakistan may consider acquiring surplus C-130 from Australia. Future option is to acquire C-235/295 (Spain/Indonesia) or Y-9 from China.
> For 4/5 generation fighter, Pakistan can join Chinese J-31 or join Turkey for it's fighter project.
> There was talk about Turkey, Indonesia and South Korea are joining to build a fighter. Pakistan can also join them, four nations together can start a 4/5 generation fighter.
> 
> Future attack helicopter project is going to be with Turkey, not China. Pakistan needs western technology and Chinese tech is still 5-10 years behind western tech.
> 
> 
> Pakistan may also go for 3 Turkish design TF-2000 AAW FFG in 2016, enter service date will be 2019-2020.



I think PN is committed with the 4-6 new F-22P block-IIs that have the latest tech from China and may be it will be constructed KE&SWs very soon along with tankers from Turksih firm.


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## force1

why dont pakistan start building their own fighter jet,, why they are relay on us or chaina,,,,


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## Black Widow

force1 said:


> why dont pakistan start building their own fighter jet,, why they are relay on us or chaina,,,,





Low volume production is not profitable... What is the use to invest billions for few planes...


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## force1

Black Widow said:


> Low volume production is not profitable... What is the use to invest billions for few planes...



is pak capable to build their own indigenous fighter jet??


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## Black Widow

force1 said:


> is pak capable to build their own indigenous fighter jet??






Capabilities can be developed, big Question is Does Pakistan required something like that??? Pakistan don't have any enemy to handle with, so they don't need.

Pakistan don't need even army..


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## SBD-3

graphican said:


> Pakistan could only get what it has already got, Block-52 at best. Remember F-16 despite of its potential and usefulness to us, it is 2 steps down in the latest technology USA uses. Going for something which USA is using itself is unrealistic. Look at this side that Block-60 weren't on the offer for us.


There would be couple of things to consider here
1- Did PAF request Block-60 Version from pentagon?
2- Was block 60 at a similar price tag as that of Block-52?
3- Was block 52 not enough to meet the requirements of PAF?
There are a lot of ifs in this matter. We just cant simply assume that block 60s were not offered to PAF so would not be JSF.




> At the moment world is re-aligning and power-centers are shifting from USA to Europe and China. USA in South Asia needs allies and enemies. Having chosen China as a foe and all other countries who are close allies of China, US is only going to see its future through this perspective. Pakistan could only have received F-35 if it was a very close ally with USA and at the same time a declared opponent of China and Iran. But at the same time, India must not have been aligned with USA and must had neutral relationship with China but not a foe of it. Only and only then Pakistan could have gained the value which Taiwan enjoys.


Europe is still a political joke. How would their defence industry be able to prosper when the defense budgets across Europe are shrinking. I can still remember that every third or forth edition of JDW includes a piece on a defence project being dropped in Europe. The China's advantage is that Chinese had to undertake a massive upgradation of their defence capabilities. This actually kept their defence industry not only alive but also helped drive for innovative solutions. Regarding the point that one has to be an enemy of China. For example, look at Israel. They have maintained close defence cooperation with China yet they are among the first users of JSF. And even other countries including European ones are not hardcore enemies of China -except Japan-. So its all about how the diplomatic relationships give way to increased bi-lateral trust. 



> Now IFs doesn't end here. USA and Pakistan at the same time must had enjoyed strong and dependable relationships and our whole fantasy ends here. Trusting and dependability on USA? Haha Funny! Forget USA and F-35 my friend.. we weren't able to get Javelin because India was one of bigger potential buys and we are cooking Khayali Pulao for possible F-35? Unrealistic - pretty darn unrealistic!


US is not strictly like France my friend. Its the buyers who request them for their products, not the other way around. Even look at MMRCA, US companies never went to the extent Dissault/EDAS/MigDB went -often bribing their way to success-. I remember the comments of US representative saying that their (USs') products were proven and signify quality and that's that. They can sell their products to both opponents without much resistance because their products give quality and edge both at one time to their opponents. If they didn't want to sell Javelins to Pakistan it was because they didn't want to sell them to Pakistan, not because they wanted to sell them to India. They sold their hardware to UAE,KSA,Egypt and Israel at the same time. Its not a big deal for them.

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## neehar

turbo charged said:


> if we can make a JF-17 land on water then there will be no need for aircraft carrier....we can have one large destroyer carrying racks at its back with JF-17 tied to it and floating along with it.....taking off from water and landing on water is very much possible ...imo slight experimentation is needed.



if ur talking abt jets driven by propellers its possible.but ther're of no use in a combat..a jet engine can not with stand water entering in to the turbine especially salt water which is highly corrosive.besides developed countries like u.s are not fools to use carriers instead of doing the things u've mentioned


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## SBD-3

Black Widow said:


> Capabilities can be developed, big Question is Does Pakistan required something like that??? Pakistan don't have any enemy to handle with, so they don't need.
> 
> Pakistan don't need even army..


Why are you guys so naive? Europe shares a common region and common economy. Even with no wars since WWII, they continue to maintain their defence forces.....

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## SBD-3

turbo charged said:


> if we can make a JF-17 land on water then there will be no need for aircraft carrier....we can have one large destroyer carrying racks at its back with JF-17 tied to it and floating along with it.....taking off from water and landing on water is very much possible ...imo slight experimentation is needed.


Wah wah.........why didn't the Russians,French,Americans,Brits,China and all other carrier developing nations thought of that....


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## jupiter2007

Nishan_101 said:


> I think PN is committed with the 4-6 new F-22P block-IIs that have the latest tech from China and may be it will be constructed KE&SWs very soon along with tankers from Turksih firm.



PN has 4 F-21P frigates, TYPE21 should be retired as soon as possible since the are 30+ years old. PN needs to add at least 10+ FAC/Corvette, 3-4 Turkish design TF-2000 AAW FFG and 2-3 6000-8000 TON destroyers by 2020.

*PN ships*

*Frigate*
4 Frigate build with the help of China (for stop gap purpose)
PNS Zulfiqar delivered August 2009
PNS Shamsheer delivered December 2009
PNS Saif delivered on 15 September 2010
PNS Aslat delivered on 17 June 2011

1 F-260 PNS Alamgir (ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class)

6 Tariq Class Frigate (ex-Royal Navy Type 21 frigates) 
Babur (ex-Amazon)
Shah Jahan (ex-Active)
Tariq (ex-Ambuscade)
Khaibar (ex-Arrow)
Badr (ex-Alacrity)
Tippu Sultan (ex-Avenger)
These ships are 30+ yearsy old and should be retired between 2016-2020.

*Missile boats*
2 Larkana Class (Should retire or handover to coastguard)
2 Jalata II Class
2 Jurrat Class
2 Azmat Class (FAC - new design, build with the assistance from China)


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## Wingman

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Yes and many are old, Now getting MLU, but it will not enhance the life of Airframe. Our f16 will become Mirages from 2020-25.
> You know what happened to F35 when they decided single engine contains max 145KT thrust .
> Maximum speed limited to 1.6 Mach.



I would prefer PAF should have twin engined jet


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## Myth_buster_1

force1 said:


> is pak capable to build their own indigenous fighter jet??



Neither India is capable. All what they are doing is paying western consultants and companies to R&D and TOT.

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## naseem shah

jupiter2007 said:


> I forgot to mention about Transport planes option for PAF/PA. Pakistan may consider acquiring surplus C-130 from Australia. Future option is to acquire C-235/295 (Spain/Indonesia) or Y-9 from China.
> For 4/5 generation fighter, Pakistan can join Chinese J-31 or join Turkey for it's fighter project.
> There was talk about Turkey, Indonesia and South Korea are joining to build a fighter. Pakistan can also join them, four nations together can start a 4/5 generation fighter.
> 
> Future attack helicopter project is going to be with Turkey, not China. Pakistan needs western technology and Chinese tech is still 5-10 years behind western tech.
> 
> 
> Pakistan may also go for 3 Turkish design TF-2000 AAW FFG in 2016, enter service date will be 2019-2020.



you are right should go for turkish fifth gen fighter project

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## danger007

hurt said:


> Same as FC-1.The difference is that FC-2 closer to complete



I don't think so.... Pakistan shouldn't depend upon completely Either china or USA... just as India doing.... We are shopping from USA and Russia and EU as well...... Hope we grown like china soon... But we are heading towards it...



hurt said:


> Same as FC-1.The difference is that FC-2 closer to complete



I don't think so.... Pakistan shouldn't depend upon completely Either china or USA... just as India doing.... We are shopping from USA and Russia and EU as well...... Hope we grown like china soon... But we are heading towards it...


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## bigzgvr4

danger007 said:


> I don't think so.... Pakistan shouldn't depend upon completely Either china or USA... just as India doing.... We are shopping from USA and Russia and EU as well...... Hope we grown like china soon... But we are heading towards it...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so.... Pakistan shouldn't depend upon completely Either china or USA... just as India doing.... We are shopping from USA and Russia and EU as well...... Hope we grown like china soon... But we are heading towards it...



Pakistan does not get a choice to choose because where ever pakistan Look india is interested in the same thing i remember pakistan wanted Gripens india wanted those Pakistan Wanted M2k From UAe India got involved with the French to not to sell it to us and If war on terror did not happened much of pakistans capabilites would have been only consisted of the Missile deterrence Now when USA sanctions pakistan on Iran pakistan will be only Left to deal with CHina every one else would back out 
And china is a good Ally also what ever it uses for its defence pakistan has access to it So in terms of Chinese capability compared with others After USA and Russia Number 3 is China 

"thank you come again"

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## muse

Why does Pakistan need Western over Chinese and other technology?? It's a really peculiar assertion you have made, can you explain why "Western" technology should be preferred ? I'm not suggesting that it should be rejected, I'm however,confused by your suggestion that we "NEED" Western technology


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## bigzgvr4

muse said:


> Why does Pakistan need Western over Chinese and other technology?? It's a really peculiar assertion you have made, can you explain why "Western" technology should be preferred ? I'm not suggesting that it should be rejected, I'm however,confused by your suggestion that we "NEED" Western technology



The only technology worth getting is American their systems evolve and keep evolving and then comes the chinesse equipmentthe rest is just waste of money chinese equipment and american equipment are the only ones that mature really fast the rest takes decades to develop and are not even up to par they have to add american eqiupment to the other western to become Nato Spec and then it works really Great thats what i think


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## EAK

Black Widow said:


> Capabilities can be developed, big Question is Does Pakistan required something like that??? Pakistan don't have any enemy to handle with, so they don't need.
> 
> *Pakistan don't need even army*..


 u must be living on some far far faraway planet or something...

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## muse

bigzgvr4 said:


> The only technology worth getting is American their systems evolve and keep evolving and then comes the chinesse equipmentthe rest is just waste of money chinese equipment and american equipment are the only ones that mature really fast the rest takes decades to develop and are not even up to par they have to add american eqiupment to the other western to become Nato Spec and then it works really Great thats what i think



So "Western" technology is unique in that it "evolves"? Have you thought that through? Technology is the creation of tools to help solve problems, is that fair to say? And if you say, yes, we can then also agree that it is obvious that all technology evolves as the problems the seek to address have evolved - If yes, what's so unique about "Western Technology"? is that we can only use it as directed by Western powers?

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## Nishan_101

I think now its quite clear that PAF is now only persuing F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft and INSHA ALLAH PAC will be building it by 2015/2016. Also it was much better for PAF to negotiate with US on the possible sale of about 55-75 Block-60s along with taking of 28 F-16s of their own and 21 from Venuezvella and upgrading all of the 80 in Turkey. This Negotiation should be done in 2002 and start of upgradation from 2004 till 2009 and also getting delivery of new Block--60s from 2005 till 2009. So in this way we will have great planes and also from 2015 F-60 Chinese or JV...


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## danger007

Nishan_101 said:


> I think now its quite clear that PAF is now only persuing F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft and INSHA ALLAH PAC will be building it by 2015/2016. Also it was much better for PAF to negotiate with US on the possible sale of about 55-75 Block-60s along with taking of 28 F-16s of their own and 21 from Venuezvella and upgrading all of the 80 in Turkey. This Negotiation should be done in 2002 and start of upgradation from 2004 till 2009 and also getting delivery of new Block--60s from 2005 till 2009. So in this way we will have great planes and also from 2015 F-60 Chinese or JV...



Nishan is that you? who post this.... even chinese J-20 itself take much time... you are talking about J-31 production in PAC? how many Jets PAF will buy?


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## Bossman

danger007 said:


> Nishan is that you? who post this.... even chinese J-20 itself take much time... you are talking about J-31 production in PAC? how many Jets PAF will buy?



Don't mind Nishan. He is either an Indian pretending to be a Pakistani or he is 9 years old or has serious psychlogical issues.

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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> Nishan is that you? who post this.... even chinese J-20 itself take much time... you are talking about J-31 production in PAC? how many Jets PAF will buy?



Reminds me of this somehow.

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## Bamboo Castle

Not yet fully developed and you guys are already wet dreaming it... funny


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## monitor

naseem shah said:


> you are right should go for turkish fifth gen fighter project




Still in drawing board so better to invest in J-31 which already flying as proto typed .


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## That Guy

That's true, but the Turkish one is probably gonna be more advanced, as they can get US expertise to further their project.

Then again, there is always the chance that the J-31 will be built domestically in Pakistan in the long run, and could also result in a partial tech transfer, so that tiny chance alone could help Pakistan tremendously.

I like how India is doing it though, they're investing in the FGFA, and building their own, of course, they have the money to, so it's not really a problem for them.


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## Luftwaffe

That Guy said:


> That's true, but the Turkish one is probably gonna be more advanced, as they can get US expertise to further their project.



The reason Turkey is perusing JV or home grown 5th Gen with either Sweden/S. Korea is so not to be dependent on US when it comes to Engine and Avionics apart from A2A/A2G weapons.

J-31 is flying as a prototype and Turkish one is on paper by the time Turkish prototype flys who knows J-31 would be ready for upgrades so don't consider Turkish one to be advanced as it is on paper project so far.

India one is also on paper so far they are trying to make something out of LCA.


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## That Guy

Luftwaffe said:


> The reason Turkey is perusing JV or home grown 5th Gen with either Sweden/S. Korea is so not to be dependent on US when it comes to Engine and Avionics apart from A2A/A2G weapons.
> 
> J-31 is flying as a prototype and Turkish one is on paper by the time Turkish prototype flys who knows J-31 would be ready for upgrades so don't consider Turkish one to be advanced as it is on paper project so far.
> 
> India one is also on paper so far they are trying to make something out of LCA.



That's true, but the fact that India even has the funds to at least start on the design and eventual development doesn't bode well for China or Pakistan.

The J-31 may end up being further along in it's life cycle by the time the Indian 5th gen comes into service, but it will still pose a major threat to China and Pakistan.

Either way, it's not a race, it's just a matter of who's got the most cash to throw around, which is what this is. Pakistan doesn't, India does, and that means more and more countries in the region are gonna start moving away from Pakistan to India.


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## Luftwaffe

That Guy said:


> means more and more countries in the region are gonna start moving away from Pakistan to India.



Move to hindustan for what? Nobody is buying anything from india that can't make a decent rifle without importing screws for it. Everyone is making their own or either buying from world class Lockheed and Boeing. HAL hands are full if you have read they can't even take Rafale development with 8-10 products in development already.


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## rcrmj

That Guy said:


> That's true, but the Turkish one is probably gonna be more advanced, as they can get US expertise to further their project.
> 
> Then again, there is always the chance that the J-31 will be built domestically in Pakistan in the long run, and could also result in a partial tech transfer, so that tiny chance alone could help Pakistan tremendously.
> 
> I like how India is doing it though, they're investing in the FGFA, and building their own, of course, they have the money to, so it's not really a problem for them.



turkish 5th gen plan is no more than a fairytale``it does not have much experiences of developing modern combat aircraft in fields of areodynamics, avionices, composite material techs, radars, airframe design, air-born weapons, fly-control system and system integration techs, it has almost next to zero experiences```

designing modern combat aircraft has nothing to do with gluing together different techs from others```it becomes even harder to design 5th gen



That Guy said:


> That's true, but the Turkish one is probably gonna be more advanced, as they can get US expertise to further their project.
> 
> Then again, there is always the chance that the J-31 will be built domestically in Pakistan in the long run, and could also result in a partial tech transfer, so that tiny chance alone could help Pakistan tremendously.
> 
> I like how India is doing it though, they're investing in the FGFA, and building their own, of course, they have the money to, so it's not really a problem for them.



prior to the induction of F-22 and F-35, American already had decades of dedicated R&D in stealth techs``so are China and Russia to their J-20,J-31 and T-50 respectively```

and do you think Turky which hasnt even developed a decend 4th gen jet fighter can have the luxury to develop a 5th gen fighter?


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## rcrmj

That Guy said:


> That's true, but the fact that India even has the funds to at least start on the design and eventual development doesn't bode well for China or Pakistan.
> 
> The J-31 may end up being further along in it's life cycle by the time the Indian 5th gen comes into service, but it will still pose a major threat to China and Pakistan.
> 
> Either way, it's not a race, it's just a matter of who's got the most cash to throw around, which is what this is. Pakistan doesn't, India does, *and that means more and more countries in the region are gonna start moving away from Pakistan to India*.



not in our life time

india is at the bottom of the weapon supply chain``more than 70% of weaponaries are imported and the bigger proportion of the remaining 30% are assemblies of imported parts``

their troublesome LCA, Arjun or any other 'domestic' projects tell very well about their true capability in high techs, researches, manufacturing and project management``

can you even find a world power even seeks for standard issue assault rifle from other countries?

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## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> That's true, but the fact that India even has the funds to at least start on the design and eventual development doesn't bode well for China or Pakistan.
> 
> The J-31 may end up being further along in it's life cycle by the time the Indian 5th gen comes into service, but it will still pose a major threat to China and Pakistan.
> 
> Either way, it's not a race, it's just a matter of who's got the most cash to throw around, which is what this is. Pakistan doesn't, India does, and that means more and more countries in the region are gonna start moving away from Pakistan to India.




Hi,

It is not only cash that matters but the attitude as well----with the stinking attitude that paks have---no doubt the world would move away from it and paks being paks----we blame it on everything else but ourselves.

India's defence industrial complex is as pathetic and as corrupt as our own Zardari---. It is incompetent to the utmost degree----pakistan can bless their stars for that----.

With the problems cropping up with the 5th generation aircraft---you people won't see a full fledged 5th gen aircraft for awhile---.

It is better for a country like pakistan to stay with 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft and come up with better air to air missiles that can combat 5th gen aircraft---and better electronics.

Have a high quality aesa radar----and a superior version of pl12---it would cost lesser and it is something that is doable for pakistan / china.

A top notch 4.5 gen aircraft with the help of china would cost 50--60 million dollars as compared to a 150---200million for a 5th gen----then the PL 12 development would cost less than than the cost of one 5th gen aircraft----add to it your secondary air support and surveillance----pak wil come out ahead---.

Pak children must remember---after a certain threshold is crossed----it is not the size of the dog that matters---it is the fight in the dog that counts---.

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## Luftwaffe

Add to it country cross medium-High Altitude SAM Systems to defend Air Space heavily.

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## Storm Force

> India's defence industrial complex is as pathetic and as corrupt as our own Zardari---. It is incompetent to the utmost degree----pakistan can bless their stars for that----.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-14.html#ixzz2Pmb5rhfu



ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON not even close

India,s military complex is FAR MORE TRANSPARENT , real chain of command and OVERALL civillian involvement . HUGE DIFFERENCE in size, financiakl budgts and current/future GROWTH trajectory is STEEP thanks open access to the world TOP military technology ie france USA israel & RUSSIA. 

PAKISTAN is a military dictatoship FRACTION OF THE BUDGET no and virtual no options of TOP technology SHARE or growth OTHER THAN china OR north koreans.


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## Storm Force

REGARDING this thread. 

DOES ANYBODY KNOW if this plane is ACTUALLY going to see MASS production a decade from TODAY and even then WILL CHINA EXPORT THIS.

just LOOK at J10 entered service 2005 over 200 in service... YET NOT A SINGLE EXPORT ORDER.

CHINEASE ARE SELLING their downgraded budget technology stil to those that WANT THIS. 

FOR ALL WE KNOW j31/j20 MAY NOT EVEN BE AVIALABLE for export. TO ANYONE


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## Rajput_Pakistani

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not only cash that matters but the attitude as well----with the stinking attitude that paks have---no doubt the world would move away from it and paks being paks----we blame it on everything else but ourselves.
> 
> India's defence industrial complex is as pathetic and as corrupt as our own Zardari---. It is incompetent to the utmost degree----pakistan can bless their stars for that----.
> 
> With the problems cropping up with the 5th generation aircraft---you people won't see a full fledged 5th gen aircraft for awhile---.
> 
> It is better for a country like pakistan to stay with 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft and come up with better air to air missiles that can combat 5th gen aircraft---and better electronics.
> 
> Have a high quality aesa radar----and a superior version of pl12---it would cost lesser and it is something that is doable for pakistan / china.
> 
> A top notch 4.5 gen aircraft with the help of china would cost 50--60 million dollars as compared to a 150---200million for a 5th gen----then the PL 12 development would cost less than than the cost of one 5th gen aircraft----add to it your secondary air support and surveillance----pak wil come out ahead---.
> 
> Pak children must remember---after a certain threshold is crossed----it is not the size of the dog that matters---it is the fight in the dog that counts---.



Totally agreed. First of all Pakistan should come out of this reactive / knee jerk response vis-a-vis India. Stealth is not a miracle because in 1 or 2 years from now, Radars advancements will render stealth almost secondary importance. Pakistan considering its economy size needs to invest more in SAMs, Networking, Early warning and UAVs. J-10B or J-11 in 4+++ configuration should be the next goal for Pakistan. Chinese wouldn't export these planes unless their own engines will be developed. This may take another 4 years at minimum. Only after that PAF could even think of 5th Generation.

So in my very humble opinion, we should really concentrate firstly on our economy and getting our tax to GDP ratio to at least 15%. Then there will be lot of new avenues available for us in future.

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## That Guy

> REGARDING this thread.
> 
> DOES ANYBODY KNOW if this plane is ACTUALLY going to see MASS production a decade from TODAY and even then WILL CHINA EXPORT THIS.
> 
> just LOOK at J10 entered service 2005 over 200 in service... YET NOT A SINGLE EXPORT ORDER.
> 
> CHINEASE ARE SELLING their downgraded budget technology stil to those that WANT THIS.
> 
> FOR ALL WE KNOW j31/j20 MAY NOT EVEN BE AVIALABLE for export. TO ANYONE



The J-10 wasn't an export air-craft, and it was with great amount of concessions that the Chinese are even selling it to Pakistan.

The J-31 is up for export, as the Chinese have already said that it is. They're also looking to induct it into their naval-air arm and are looking to induct it by 2016-19.

The J-20 is expected to go into full production sometime during 2017.



> ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON not even close
> 
> India,s military complex is FAR MORE TRANSPARENT , real chain of command and OVERALL civillian involvement . HUGE DIFFERENCE in size, financiakl budgts and current/future GROWTH trajectory is STEEP thanks open access to the world TOP military technology ie france USA israel & RUSSIA.
> 
> PAKISTAN is a military dictatoship FRACTION OF THE BUDGET no and virtual no options of TOP technology SHARE or growth OTHER THAN china OR north koreans.



I do agree that India's MIC is far more transparent than Pakistan's, but I think you're living a few years behind. Pakistan is by no means a military dictatorship any longer, and with the way things are going, under the benevolent leadership of Gen. Kayani the military is finally looking to come under complete civilian control.

So what if Pakistan is getting it's tech from China and North Korea, the last I heard, India was getting theirs from Russia.

In the end, it doesn't matter who has the bigger or more technologically advanced gun, it's all a matter of who can shoot it, instead of just waving it around. Remember, even if this is the 21st century, a "sword" and a "bow and arrow" can still kill you.



rcrmj said:


> turkish 5th gen plan is no more than a fairytale``it does not have much experiences of developing modern combat aircraft in fields of areodynamics, avionices, composite material techs, radars, airframe design, air-born weapons, fly-control system and system integration techs, it has almost next to zero experiences```
> 
> designing modern combat aircraft has nothing to do with gluing together different techs from others```it becomes even harder to design 5th gen
> 
> 
> 
> prior to the induction of F-22 and F-35, American already had decades of dedicated R&D in stealth techs``so are China and Russia to their J-20,J-31 and T-50 respectively```
> 
> and do you think Turky which hasnt even developed a decend 4th gen jet fighter can have the luxury to develop a 5th gen fighter?



You seem to have this weird idea that the Turks are gonna make it on their own, of course not, that's just ridicules. They're probably gonna get outside help, and considering that they have the money for it, I don't doubt that they can throw enough money at the problems they encounter to make those problems go away. As did the US, China and Russia.


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## Genesis

I always suspected that the J-10 isn't exported, I think I read it as well, is because there are no qualified Chinese Engines yet. How do you mass produce something that's missing the key part? Selling with an Russian engine would be a disgrace for one, and not cost effective for another.

I think J-10s will be sold by the time J-20s are about to be inducted, and J-31s are definitely going to be sold to countries.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Why does china need to export J10----common sense says that there is no reason to----the chinese air force has such huge order to fill for itself---they really don't need to.

Out of all its allies----pakistan is the only one that really needs a 4.5 gen aircraft---all other friends of china really don't need it---it is available to pakistan----which it will get in due time.

The jf 17 is truthfully the need for an air force like pakistan---with an aesa radar and PL12---. This aircraft is not for the need of chinese air force right away----chinese air force needs aircraft like the J11 and J10's in large numbers---. They need to fill a massive gap of good quality high tech air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft---.

Once they have done that---then they can take up the cause of JF17 with an aesa and an advanced version of PL12 for their air force to fill up the numbers---.

As for the indian colleagues----suddenly they are celebrating the cause of 'temporary blindness'----. Thy are the ones who gave a new life to the rafael---the air craft which was about to meet its natural death after living in obscurity for the longest term----.

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## Sinnerman108

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Why does china need to export J10----c*ommon sense says that there is no reason to----the chinese air force has such huge order to fill for itself---they really don't need to.*
> 
> Out of all its allies----pakistan is the only one that really needs a 4.5 gen aircraft---all other friends of china really don't need it---it is available to pakistan----which it will get in due time.
> 
> The jf 17 is truthfully the need for an air force like pakistan---with an aesa radar and PL12---. This aircraft is not for the need of chinese air force right away----chinese air force needs aircraft like the J11 and J10's in large numbers---. They need to fill a massive gap of good quality high tech air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft---.
> 
> Once they have done that---then they can take up the cause of JF17 with an aesa and an advanced version of PL12 for their air force to fill up the numbers---.
> 
> As for the indian colleagues----suddenly they are celebrating the cause of 'temporary blindness'----. Thy are the ones who gave a new life to the rafael---the air craft which was about to meet its natural death after living in obscurity for the longest term----.



MK,
there is common sense and there is Chinese sense; which as we can see globally is soft power of dollars rather than of weapons.

If Chinese know they can do business and make money out of it, they will do it for sure.

they are the kings of business.

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## Beast

Storm Force said:


> REGARDING this thread.
> 
> DOES ANYBODY KNOW if this plane is ACTUALLY going to see MASS production a decade from TODAY and even then WILL CHINA EXPORT THIS.
> 
> just LOOK at J10 entered service 2005 over 200 in service... YET NOT A SINGLE EXPORT ORDER.
> 
> CHINEASE ARE SELLING their downgraded budget technology stil to those that WANT THIS.
> 
> FOR ALL WE KNOW j31/j20 MAY NOT EVEN BE AVIALABLE for export. TO ANYONE



May I know what 4th gen combat fighter jet can India offer to sell it at the moment?

Finally, J-10 is hardly offer for export. What foreign airshow has it attend besides the domestic Zuhai Airshow? While JF-17 has attend UK and UAE airshow already..

Indian full of sour grapes and the only damage you can do to China arm forces is your smearing campaign.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In every high end weapons systems---there is some kind of secrecy---and the same is the case with the chinese equipment---. The u s put some of its stuff out in public---because it is so far ahead of others---that it would not make much of a difference.

Just by looking at the F22---you cannot tell anything about its electronic warfare suite and the weapons that it carries---but otoh---for china---their capabilities are limited---what they can offer is mostly known. So---the only way they can keep a lid on it---they need to keep their high end systems under some kind of wrap.

China does not need to display the J10---because other than its primary partner 'pakistan'---they don't want to sell it to anyone else for the time being---.

So---the point of going to air shows becomes moot---.

The only reason the J10 may be offered to anpther country after pakistan----is for some massive favours and political juxtapositioning.

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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In every high end weapons systems---there is some kind of secrecy---and the same is the case with the chinese equipment---. The u s put some of its stuff out in public---because it is so far ahead of others---that it would not make much of a difference.
> 
> Just by looking at the F22---you cannot tell anything about its electronic warfare suite and the weapons that it carries---but otoh---for china---their capabilities are limited---what they can offer is mostly known. So---the only way they can keep a lid on it---they need to keep their high end systems under some kind of wrap.
> 
> China does not need to display the J10---because other than its primary partner 'pakistan'---they don't want to sell it to anyone else for the time being---.
> 
> So---the point of going to air shows becomes moot---.
> 
> The only reason the J10 may be offered to anpther country after pakistan----is for some massive favours and political juxtapositioning.



You be surprised what I know from J10a/b and JF17 by just going to airshows... I am not so sure that F22 is that superior.

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## Mian H Amin.

Do those aircrafts have 2 engines ??? well it will be a good addition if that happens.


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## Storm Force

Pakistan has no partnership or financial input in the j10 vanguard. And


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## MastanKhan

Munir said:


> You be surprised what I know from J10a/b and JF17 by just going to airshows... I am not so sure that F22 is that superior.



Hi,

Ah---Munir----how are you doing my good man. How is our mutual friend Neo doing?



Storm Force said:


> Pakistan has no partnership or financial input in the j10 vanguard. And





Hi,

If that makes you happy---then let it be so

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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> Pakistan has no partnership or financial input in the j10 vanguard. And



And, what?


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## Zabaniyah

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In every high end weapons systems---there is some kind of secrecy---and the same is the case with the chinese equipment---. The u s put some of its stuff out in public---because it is so far ahead of others---that it would not make much of a difference.
> 
> Just by looking at the F22---you cannot tell anything about its electronic warfare suite and the weapons that it carries---but otoh---for china---their capabilities are limited---what they can offer is mostly known. So---the only way they can keep a lid on it---they need to keep their high end systems under some kind of wrap.
> 
> China does not need to display the J10---because other than its primary partner 'pakistan'---they don't want to sell it to anyone else for the time being---.
> 
> So---the point of going to air shows becomes moot---.
> 
> The only reason the J10 may be offered to anpther country after pakistan----is for some massive favours and political juxtapositioning.



Hmm...my country did negotiate for the J-10. Never really took off. 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/109150-bangladesh-negotiating-buy-f-10-fighter-planes.html
Bangladesh - Air Force Modernization

So, I think it's safe to say that the J-10 would be in a similar export profile as the F-15 Eagle for now. 

What kind of significant advantages do you think can the J-10 offer to the PAF compared to the JF-17? 



Storm Force said:


> Pakistan has no partnership or financial input in the j10 vanguard. And



Hmm...you always talk funny...


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## MastanKhan

Loki said:


> Hmm...my country did negotiate for the J-10. Never really took off.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/109150-bangladesh-negotiating-buy-f-10-fighter-planes.html
> Bangladesh - Air Force Modernization
> 
> So, I think it's safe to say that the J-10 would be in a similar export profile as the F-15 Eagle for now.
> 
> What kind of significant advantages do you think can the J-10 offer to the PAF compared to the JF-17?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...you always talk funny...



Hi,

Wants and desires of a country are different than what it truly needs---and from it wants to build a base.

One of the primary functions of any weapons system is that not what it can do for you ( it does have to meet that minimum threshold ) but what kind of effect its presence would have on the enemy.

When you have an enemy where everything is based on size---then you ought to have something that can match their largest and the baddest. Because in the end---it is also about a part of the psyche----if your opponent enters the battle without any fear of your weapons---then you got to climb a bigger hill---and it does not work very well starting as an under dog.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

A few days ago I made a statement that PAF needs to focus more on 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft, advanced air to air missle systems and an aesa radar system for their aircraft.

The cost of designing, flying anf maintaining a steatlh 5th gen aircraft is astronomical------guess what---just yesterdays news----the USAF is going to ground most of its high end air fleet.

Who is the TT chairman of this board now----is he worth his salt or anything at all?

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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ah---Munir----how are you doing my good man. How is our mutual friend Neo doing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If that makes you happy---then let it be so




It is always good to meet old friends. Neo is fine. Very busy but fine. 

The problem is about superiority is how to scale it. I mean, crushing economy, destroying everything with massive diplomatic and military force is hardly a valuable comparisation between plane x and plane Y. Let us take Israel arab conflict. Pakistani pilots did perform there with lot less. Still Israeli pilots are described as super humans. There plane as super planes. With that budget and even more diplomatic and military support you would not expect them to lose against Lebanon... Even the Merkava did meet its end...

We see budget cuts all over the world. I am looking forward to how it will evolve the airpower

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## Glitcher

Loki said:


> Hmm...my country did negotiate for the J-10. Never really took off.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangladesh-defence/109150-bangladesh-negotiating-buy-f-10-fighter-planes.html
> Bangladesh - Air Force Modernization
> 
> So, I think it's safe to say that the J-10 would be in a similar export profile as the F-15 Eagle for now.
> 
> What kind of significant advantages do you think can the J-10 offer to the PAF compared to the JF-17?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...you always talk funny...



i would say none JFT full fill all the needs right now and after that we just need stealth multi role Aircraft and j31 is the best option for that.


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## Kompromat

*J-21/AMF Gyrfalcon*








*The J-21 (Project 310?) Falcon 01 prototype was approaching the SAC airfield after its successful maiden flight on October 31, 2012. A scale-down model (F-60) of J-21 was first unveiled by the 601 Institute at the first International UAV Innovation Grand Prix held in Beijing in September 2011.* 

It was first rumored in April 2011 that 601/SAC has been developing a 4th generation medium multi-role stealth fighter as J-21 (Project 310) since 2007 after its own heavy stealth fighter design lost the bid to 611/CAC's J-20 (see above). The aircraft has a conventional design with twin engines and two large slanted trapezoidal tailfins similar to American F-22. As the result the ventral stabilizing fins are eliminated to save weight and reduce RCS. In addition it features DSIs, two piece canopy and a pentagon shaped nose similar to F-35. Like J-20, a retractable IFR proble could be installed on the starboard side slightly forward of the canopy. As a 4th generation fighter J-21 is expcted to be equipped with advanced avionics such as an AESA radar and a wide-angle holographic HUD. 

The prototype is expected initially to be powered by the 8.5t class RD-93/WS-13A turbofan (without TVC) but later by the new *9.5t class "Medium Thrust" engine (WS-13B, might feature 2D TVC)*. The RD-93 engine nozzles on the prototype appear without any stealth measures applied. However they are partially shielded by the two horizontal tailfins extending rearward, similar to F-35, thus reduces the IR and radar signatures. J-21 features a single internal weapon bay inside its belly housing up to 4 (?) AAMs including PL-10, PL-12 or PL-15. It may also be able to carry the larger YJ-83K AshM and YJ-91 ARM externally. However due to its relatively small size and lower engine thrust compared to J-20, J-21 might suffer from either a limited internal payload or a shorter combat radius. It is not expected to have the super-cruise capability initially either when powered by RD-93. Some specifications (speculated): length 16.9m, height 4.8m, wingspan 11.5m, normal TO wight 17.5t, combat radius 1,250km with internal fuel, max level speed Mach 1.8, TO distance 400m. A full-scale metal model was probably built in early 2011. One airframe was transported to the 623 Institute in Yanliang for static tests in June 2012. 

The first prototype was under construction since late 2011. Its first flight took place on October 31, 2012, powered by two smoky RD-93 turbofans. As a private venture of AVIC, J-21 (dubbed AMF/Advanced Multi-role Fighter) is expected to be promoted at the international market as a low-cost alternative to American F-35. Therefore it could have some negative impact on the prospects of FC-1/JF-17 in 7-10 years. *Its first foreign customer is likely to be Pakistani Air Force.* As for the domestic market, it appears to be a good candidate to replace all the remaining J-7E/G series light fighters still in service with PLAAF and PLAN, as the production of J-10 series will be limited to around 300. It was rumored that J-21 could compete with the other stealth fighter design from 611 Institute for the next generation PLAN carrier-based stealth fighter but this has not been confirmed. *J-21 was partially unveiled at 2012 Zhuhai Airshow as an "advanced fighter concept", featuring a one-piece canopy.*

Shenyang J-21

@Luftwaffe @nabil_05 @Yzd Khalifa @Mosamania @AhaseebA @orangzaib @TaimiKhan @Pfpilot


The source is considered credible, as its often cited by Flightglobal.

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## Pfpilot

The procurement of the J-21 depends on the economics, more than diplomacy. At this point, few would argue with the assertion that the Chinese are far more forthcoming with their technology than the Americans of yesteryear. Pakistan has access to relatively far more advanced Chinese platforms then was the case with the Americans through the last half century. Unfortunately it all becomes irrelevant when we are simply unable to afford what can easily be ours under prosperous circumstances. 

The only way the PAF ends up with a 5th gen aircraft is if the leadership completely panics and takes out more hopelessly unpayable loans. Loans, whether they are the favorable sort offered China or the rigorously enforced kind by the IMF, amount to the same thing. The Chinese will eventually become fed up with financing Pakistani defense expenditures with no realistic chance of repayment. So I think Pakistan must tread carefully. Endless loans can damage the Sino-Pak relationship. Progressively improving what are soon to be legacy fighters is the only viable way forward for a cash strapped force. In a crude way, we are trying to buy a BMW with the budget of a Carolla. The circumstances are far from ideal, but the current economic state of the nation doesn't allow for any romanticized arms buildup.

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## hkmarine55

it seems that the problem has not reached military organizations of all countries. Recently, news agencies reported that a prototype of the Chinese J-31 fighter, developed by AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Corporation took off successfully. The flight took place on October 31, 2012, lasted for about 10 minutes and ended with a successful landing.

The J-31 (J-21/F-60) is a second Chinese fighter made with the use of stealth technology. It was developed in record time - in only 19 months. In contrast to J-20, the J-31 is smaller and probably cheaper than the J-20. It can become a very popular aircraft in the arms market. Chinese aircraft designers did not hesitate to borrow US design solutions that had been tested on F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters.

Experts note that the wings, nose cone, air intakes and cockpit canopy of the J-31 almost completely reproduce the contours of similar parts of the aforementioned U.S. aircraft. This is probably the result of the work of Chinese intelligence. In particular, there was a scandal in the United States in 2009 connected with the theft of drawings from six American aerospace contractors, including those involved in the development of the F-35 fighter.

For the time being, it just so happens that the Chinese fighter will compete on the international arms market with more simple and cheap modifications of Russia's Su-27 and MiG-29, rather than with the complex and expensive F-35. Currently, the Chinese have quite modern electronic equipment, including phased antenna array radar stations.

The situation with modern jet engines of Chinese development is more complicated, although China has some progress in building its own digital control engines. The J-31 has two of them, and most likely, they are either Russian RD-93 engines, which China bought from Russia, or their Chinese copy WS-13. The J-31 has a wingspan of about 11.5 meters, which means that the plane is smaller than the American F-22.

*The "Chinese miracle" may have some commercial success in the arms market, but the real value of such military aircraft today is questionable.*


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## Storm Force

You got to take your hats off to the CHINEASE

They are building SOME AWESOME military hardware 

I SUSPECT THAT THE J31 & J20 will enter service in PLAAF before the FGFA enters service WITH INDIA where a 2022 TIMEFRAME is being tentaively discussed in NEW DELHI. 

I think both RUSSIAN PAK FA & above J20/J31 will hit their air forces by 2019-2020 ie 3 years earlier...


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## DrSomnath999

Pfpilot said:


> *The only way the PAF ends up with a 5th gen aircraft is if the leadership completely panics and takes out more hopelessly unplayable loans. Loans, whether they are the favorable sort offered China or the rigorously enforced kind by the IMF, amount to the same thing. The Chinese will eventually become fed up with financing Pakistani defense expenditures with no realistic chance of repayment. So I think Pakistan must tread carefully. Endless loans can damage the Sino-Pak relationship.* Progressively improving what are soon to be legacy fighters is the only viable way forward for a cash strapped force. In a crude way, we are trying to buy a BMW with the budget of a Carolla. The circumstances are far from ideal, but the current economic state of the nation doesn't allow for any romanticized arms buildup.



Very well said

One should look it's economical conditions 1st then take decisions judicioulsy what is right & what is wrong for it's country

Yes India is going for 5th gen planes but pak airforce should think about ways to counter it by considering it's economical conditions also

rather viable alternatives like upgraded SAMs which can detect VLO platforms & more integreated AWACS support with planes having more advanced MRAAM missiles like chinese or american/ brazillian & south african missiles for their F 16 fighters


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## Luffy 500

PAK should invest in J31 rather than J10s. Keep on developing JF17 which most likely will close the capability cap with J10s with development of future blocks. A medium weight 5th gen stealth fighter should be the long term goal of PAF and also J31 is suppose to use WS13 engine like JF17.

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## That Guy

Luffy 500 said:


> PAK should invest in J31 rather than J10s. Keep on developing JF17 which most likely will close the capability cap with J10s with development of future blocks. A medium weight 5th gen stealth fighter should be the long term goal of PAF and also J31 is suppose to use WS13 engine like JF17.



First of all, the J-31 is gonna is off limits to Pakistan during the development process, but if you mean buy it, why? Pakistan would go bankrupt buying even one squadron of the fighters, It's not economically viable, maybe in 10 years time Pakistan should look at 5th gen fighters, but right now it's not possible. Another thing to note is what benefit will Pakistan get from a 5th gen? 5th gens are made for offensive capabilities, Pakistan's armed forces and air force is meant for defensive purposes, an offensive capability is not needed.


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## Kompromat

Gentlemen,Gentlemen,Gentlemen........take a breather. PAF is not going 5th gen until another 10 years!

J-10B is dead for PAF, i am sure they wish to stick with JFTs to bridge the gap and procure J-31 or another 5th gen design which is thought to be in works at CAC around 2020-2022.

If you want this bird to scout your skies,vote wisely!
 @Munir @Pfpilot @Yzd Khalifa @Luftwaffe

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## Yzd Khalifa

OMG -_- 
I just wanted the PAF gets its hands on these 5th Gen ASAP. But sure we can wait for another 10 years. 

No matter what happens  = life.

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## MastanKhan

Munir said:


> It is always good to meet old friends. Neo is fine. Very busy but fine.
> 
> The problem is about superiority is how to scale it. I mean, crushing economy, destroying everything with massive diplomatic and military force is hardly a valuable comparisation between plane x and plane Y. Let us take Israel arab conflict. Pakistani pilots did perform there with lot less. Still Israeli pilots are described as super humans. There plane as super planes. With that budget and even more diplomatic and military support you would not expect them to lose against Lebanon... Even the Merkava did meet its end...
> 
> We see budget cuts all over the world. I am looking forward to how it will evolve the airpower



Hi,

It is agreed that pak air force pilots had done great deeds on individual basis----but as a team they are pathetic---a shame for the nation---and traitors of the worst order.

The death of merkava is made a big deal---but the comments of the Hezbollah leader are seldom repeated---. You need to understand it in the concept of full fledged war and not some small skirmishes where the superior force attacks with a lots of restraint.

Pak pilots interfering in arab war is just for show. As I have stated many a times----whatever happened was in surpise contact---the opponent was not prepared for a contact skirmish---. Just like the u s military---its reaction increases exponentially dpending on what kind of enemy it is facing------and who better than pak military to answer that question----.

There were some super studs on this board talking about the manhood of pak military---till the real moment of truth came.

Air shows are just like car shows----it is like a catwalk full of fashion models showing off their wares---.

Bottomline----pak needs to stay away from the 5th gen aircraft and spend a 100 + millions on research of making the PL12 a better missile and pursuing a better quality aesa radar other than ground to air missile systems.

No nation can afford the 5th gen aircraft----they are the slu-ts of the highest order---take your money and leave you hanging in a crunch.

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## Kompromat

@MastanKhan

Criticism is good,but the above 'rag' about PAF aviators is just a reflection of your own character. The men in flying suits i know are not what you describe.

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## Munir

Well, I do not think we can call PAF pathetic or something else negative. You have good and you even have best of the best pilots and engineers there... And I do not talk about national but international. I am one of those lucky idiots that have in touch with more then a few air forces. Trust me. I do not amuse you, I tell you what I know... You know that PAF f16 with Top gun logo on it.. I did sit in it... How many can tell that?

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## Luffy 500

That Guy said:


> First of all, the J-31 is gonna is off limits to Pakistan during the development process, but if you mean buy it, why? Pakistan would go bankrupt buying even one squadron of the fighters, It's not economically viable, maybe in 10 years time Pakistan should look at 5th gen fighters, but right now it's not possible. Another thing to note is what benefit will Pakistan get from a 5th gen? 5th gens are made for offensive capabilities, Pakistan's armed forces and air force is meant for defensive purposes, an offensive capability is not needed.



J31 is the F35 version of china. Its meant for export and may be to compliment J20 in PLAAF as a lower cost alternative. Interested parties can most likely join in the development stage to get an AC as per their specifications otherwise why would the SAC showcase such a AC for export. 
U can say J20 will be off limits but J31 won't. And I was talking about 10 years from now. Beyond 2020 PAF would need a 5gen multirole stealth fighter not for offence but for defence. The cost is naturally always a factor though.


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## IamINDIA

paisa hai to fatafat mil jayega


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## That Guy

Luffy 500 said:


> J31 is the F35 version of china. Its meant for export and may be to compliment J20 in PLAAF as a lower cost alternative. Interested parties can most likely join in the development stage to get an AC as per their specifications otherwise why would the SAC showcase such a AC for export.
> U can say J20 will be off limits but J31 won't. And I was talking about 10 years from now. Beyond 2020 PAF would need a 5gen multirole stealth fighter not for offence but for defence. The cost is naturally always a factor though.



I think you need to re-read my comment, I said "off limits to Pakistan DURING THE DEVELOPMENT PROCESS", which means that Pakistan can't invest in it, even if it had the cash to, which it clearly doesn't.

I think that Pakistan's economy is gonna see a big revival in the next 5 years if we either get Nawaz Sharif or Imran Khan in government, but we won't have the money to spend for another 10 years, simply because we have a huge debt to pay off first.

As for defense, Pakistan doesn't really need a 5th gen, even if the FGFA comes into play. Pakistan just needs enough air-power to make India nervous, no more and no less.


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## qinglong-china

DrSomnath999 said:


> Very well said
> 
> One should look it's economical conditions 1st then take decisions judicioulsy what is right & what is wrong for it's country
> 
> Yes India is going for 5th gen planes but pak airforce should think about ways to counter it by considering it's economical conditions also
> 
> rather viable alternatives like upgraded SAMs which can detect VLO platforms & more integreated AWACS support with planes having more advanced MRAAM missiles like chinese or american/ brazillian & south african missiles for their F 16 fighters


I think J-31 is likely to another JF-17. Because China has more aircrafts to research and development. for example sixth generation (Started early). Pakistan has good facilities and technical staff, Why not co-production and win-win?


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## Genesis

qinglong-china said:


> I think J-31 is likely to another JF-17. Because China has more aircrafts to research and development. for example sixth generation (Started early). Pakistan has good facilities and technical staff, Why not co-production and win-win?



China isn't there yet. Pakistan isn't either. US can coproduce f35 is because All countries involved can pretty much develop the plane themselves if given the time and funding. Co produce with pak and China make no sense since China has no engine and neither Pakistan, while I'm not sure how much Pakistan has in experience with fighter design, probably not more than China and funding is always a problem as well as do Pakistan even want 5th gen within a decade or two?


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## T-123456

Genesis said:


> China isn't there yet. Pakistan isn't either. US can coproduce f35 is because All countries involved can pretty much develop the plane themselves if given the time and funding. Co produce with pak and China make no sense since China has no engine and neither Pakistan, while I'm not sure how much Pakistan has in experience with fighter design, probably not more than China and funding is always a problem as well as do Pakistan even want 5th gen within a decade or two?


Isnt china developing an own engine?


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## Genesis

T-123456 said:


> Isnt china developing an own engine?



A couple, but the schedule and quality at this point isn't known and while the ws-10 seems like the most likely. It's not an engine that should be powering the 5th gens


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## T-123456

Genesis said:


> A couple, but the schedule and quality at this point isn't known and while the ws-10 seems like the most likely. It's not an engine that should be powering the 5th gens


They must be close to a good one or else they wouldnt go with new fighters,im sure they are.
Why else,allways dependent on russia for engines?


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## That Guy

Genesis said:


> China isn't there yet. Pakistan isn't either. US can coproduce f35 is because All countries involved can pretty much develop the plane themselves if given the time and funding. Co produce with pak and China make no sense since China has no engine and neither Pakistan, while I'm not sure how much Pakistan has in experience with fighter design, probably not more than China and funding is always a problem as well as do Pakistan even want 5th gen within a decade or two?



I agree with this, Pakistan doesn't have much experience with fighter designs and would probably not help much in any co-production. Pakistan will however want a 5th gen by 2020 at the very least, as India is supposedly going to acquire it's fighter 5th gen fighter around the same time.


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## MastanKhan

Aeronaut said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> Criticism is good,but the above 'rag' about PAF aviators is just a reflection of your own character. The men in flying suits i know are not what you describe.



Aviators is a term used by the us navy for their pilots---.

My post is directed towards managers----. Starting from Asghar Khan, the A Rahim---and then those cowards and criminals who didnot help the pak navy in 71---those cowards and traitors who did not fly the longewala missions----those traitors who letthe planes grounded on karachi air base during 71 war which got destroyed by enemy attack---.

The biggest traitor of them all---refusing the mirage purchase and not last of the least----the current destruction of the most expensive asseets of the nations----.

If that category does not put them in a traitor to the nation list what else would----.



T-123456 said:


> Isnt china developing an own engine?




Yessir---since the last decade----

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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Aviators is a term used by the us navy for their pilots---.
> 
> My post is directed towards managers----. Starting from Asghar Khan, the A Rahim---and then those cowards and criminals who didnot help the pak navy in 71---those cowards and traitors who did not fly the longewala missions----those traitors who letthe planes grounded on karachi air base during 71 war which got destroyed by enemy attack---.
> 
> The biggest traitor of them all---refusing the mirage purchase and not last of the least----the current destruction of the most expensive asseets of the nations----.
> 
> If that category does not put them in a traitor to the nation list what else would----.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yessir---since the last decade----



Let me be simple... The one that refused Mirage deal is the one I know. You rather pay Zardari 50% and have the deal... I mean seriously, you are abducted and a gun is put on your head... That is no fiction. If you call him a traitor then you do miss lots of data and info...

Masta... There is a big line between personal rage and the reality. Let us move away from rage. If the military are left without budget to do or make anything... If the forces and even ISI is infected with political party members.. You can blame the organizations but why do I miss some comment about political parties here? If you are talking about managers... Well, I give you the managers and do say something about them.

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## DrSomnath999

qinglong-china said:


> I think J-31 is likely to another JF-17. Because China has more aircrafts to research and development. for example sixth generation (Started early). Pakistan has good facilities and technical staff, Why not co-production and win-win?



the word *over optimistic* would be insufficient for what ur saying

1st Pak & china should bother right now how to improve JF 17 block 2 with good radar ,missiles & avionics suite then if economy
improves then they can consider any latest fighter later 

2nd 6th gen fighter is a distant thing for china right now US can say this as they have produced F22 & F 35 meanwhile chinese have not yet produced J20 or J31 yet still in developmental stages


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## shanipisces2002

Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?



well I think PAF is operating twin engine get I think it called A5 fatan that's a twin engine jet as I remember so I don't think so about peoples referring that PAF can't operate twin engine jets its just as i can see all the problem with not procuring the twin engine jets is sorely based on the finances which unfortunately PAF hasn't got the luxury


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## Imran Khan

shanipisces2002 said:


> well I think PAF is operating twin engine get I think it called A5 fatan that's a twin engine jet as I remember so I don't think so about peoples referring that PAF can't operate twin engine jets its just as i can see all the problem with not procuring the twin engine jets is sorely based on the finances which unfortunately PAF hasn't got the luxury



i really don't think so because if BD sudan yemen uganda can do it then pakistan can do it much more then them but its our doctrine and we are on right path as per our need .


----------



## qinglong-china

DrSomnath999 said:


> the word *over optimistic* would be insufficient for what ur saying
> 
> 1st Pak & china should bother right now how to improve JF 17 block 2 with good radar ,missiles & avionics suite then if economy
> improves then they can consider any latest fighter later
> 
> 2nd 6th gen fighter is a distant thing for china right now US can say this as they have produced F22 & F 35 meanwhile chinese have not yet produced J20 or J31 yet still in developmental stages


, I see your words, but China is China , not US. Let's see what will occur in the next few years


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## MastanKhan

Munir said:


> Let me be simple... The one that refused Mirage deal is the one I know. You rather pay Zardari 50% and have the deal... I mean seriously, you are abducted and a gun is put on your head... That is no fiction. If you call him a traitor then you do miss lots of data and info...
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Absolutely---weapons purchases that set the definition of your position----they are not stopped for petty bribes. How many of your parents had given bribes to buy the licence for semi automatic weapons in pakistan in the 80's 90's and later.
> 
> Please read up on the jews how they paid for weapons after world war2---. How much and how many they had to bribe and how outrageous prices they paid to get weapons for their protection in the early stages.
> 
> So----this is just a SOB story by the one that you know----. He failed in his duty to do his job----the consequences have been terrible. If no one told him so----it is time that he heard it---.

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## Chak Bamu

I would very much like to know what consequences have befallen Pakistan for not having M2Ks? Did we loose a war? Or are we about to loose a war? Or did we miss an opportunity to brow-beat our neighbors because we had a single lone awesome weapon system?

Just one thing: I do not wish to know what might or might not have happened during Kargil misadventure if PAF had pushed into occupied Kashmir airspace.


----------



## Kompromat

No more MK2 Debate!


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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> I would very much like to know what consequences have befallen Pakistan for not having M2Ks? Did we loose a war? Or are we about to loose a war? Or did we miss an opportunity to brow-beat our neighbors because we had a single lone awesome weapon system?
> 
> Just one thing: I do not wish to know what might or might not have happened during Kargil misadventure if PAF had pushed into occupied Kashmir airspace.



Sir,

Please allow us the liberty for not starting the story strating anew everytime a new person enters the room---try to keep up from previous posts.

And if that is your point of view about issues and national dillemas---we are not here to explain and justify---(or let me put it another way that the pakistanis understand ) to " CONVINCE " you.


----------



## Zabaniyah

That Guy said:


> First of all, the J-31 is gonna is off limits to Pakistan during the development process, but if you mean buy it, why? Pakistan would go bankrupt buying even one squadron of the fighters, It's not economically viable, maybe in 10 years time Pakistan should look at 5th gen fighters, but right now it's not possible. Another thing to note is what benefit will Pakistan get from a 5th gen? *5th gens are made for offensive capabilities, Pakistan's armed forces and air force is meant for defensive purposes, an offensive capability is not needed.*



Shouldn't an air force be offensive in nature? In fact, the air force should be the most ruthless and aggressive arm of any military. To win a war, one has to take that war to the enemy.

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## Storm Force

PAF IS SET UP TO FIGHT A DEFENSIVE WAR ONLY 

They are relying on AWACS and GCC AND SAMS to support single engined light weight fighters like JF17 * F16 & F7 to take on much larger multi role platforms like su30mki mig29 & mirage 2000 over pak air space. 

THERE STRIKE/OFFENSIVE option is ballistic & cruise missles because they are much cheaper to procure and maintain. 

we have discussed numerous times the MERITS of a J11 FLANKERS or rafale type multi rolers but COST IS A EVER CHANGING HANDICAP FOR PAKISTAN for decades it seems


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## That Guy

Loki said:


> Shouldn't an air force be offensive in nature? In fact, the air force should be the most ruthless and aggressive arm of any military. To win a war, one has to take that war to the enemy.



It depends on your definition of offensive and defensive. A counter-offensive push is, in my opinion, a defensive tactic to put the enemy in at least a stalemate (or at least used to even the odds), which can be used as a potential bargaining chip in any future negotiations. Keeping that in mind, an air force that can keep the enemy's air-defenses from dominating the sky and subsequently push them back in a counter offensive is what a defensive force needs. For that, Pakistan's capabilities with the F-16s, JF-17s and the future procurement of the FC-20 (if Pakistan is even getting the FC-20) are enough to achieve that capability. Even with a 5th gen deployed by the enemy, Pakistan has the capability to effectively complete search and destroy missions, this is especially true if the JF-17 block III is made with stealth capabilities that is rumored to be in development.

Remember, we still don't know how well 5th gen fighters will fair in actual combat. For all their worth, they still haven't actually been deployed to a war zone. If we're to believe that 5th gen fighters are really as difficult to produce and put out in large numbers that many analysts claim they are, than we can extrapolate that Pakistan won't require it until at least 2020, and even. then, India won't have the numbers to effectively use them in any actual air combat.

Of course, this is just me talking out of my backside, I know very little about actual military tactics, let alone how to successfully win air campaigns.


----------



## Genesis

That Guy said:


> It depends on your definition of offensive and defensive. A counter-offensive push is, in my opinion, a defensive tactic to put the enemy in at least a stalemate (or at least used to even the odds), which can be used as a potential bargaining chip in any future negotiations. Keeping that in mind, an air force that can keep the enemy's air-defenses from dominating the sky and subsequently push them back in a counter offensive is what a defensive force needs. For that, Pakistan's capabilities with the F-16s, JF-17s and the future procurement of the FC-20 (if Pakistan is even getting the FC-20) are enough to achieve that capability. Even with a 5th gen deployed by the enemy, Pakistan has the capability to effectively complete search and destroy missions, this is especially true if the JF-17 block III is made with stealth capabilities that is rumored to be in development.
> 
> Remember, we still don't know how well 5th gen fighters will fair in actual combat. For all their worth, they still haven't actually been deployed to a war zone. If we're to believe that 5th gen fighters are really as difficult to produce and put out in large numbers that many analysts claim they are, than we can extrapolate that Pakistan won't require it until at least 2020, and even. then, India won't have the numbers to effectively use them in any actual air combat.
> 
> Of course, this is just me talking out of my backside, I know very little about actual military tactics, let alone how to successfully win air campaigns.



2020 is way to early, I predict effective and active use of 5th Gen will come no sooner than 2025 maybe further. Currently the F-35 is not doing great, and even when it finishes it will need time to manufacture and then some more time to be effective and to have an real use. China still needs Engine and there will probably be problems even after the engine, while USSR needs funds and still lots of work to be done. Real some what effective 5th generation force will be probably by 2020-2022, while some more years for it to be exported.

Though US with the F-22 maybe sooner, hard to say.

If truth be told, Pakistan won't truly need 5th gen until about 2030, while 4.5 Gen will serve well.


----------



## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> It depends on your definition of offensive and defensive. A counter-offensive push is, in my opinion, a defensive tactic to put the enemy in at least a stalemate (or at least used to even the odds), which can be used as a potential bargaining chip in any future negotiations. Keeping that in mind, an air force that can keep the enemy's air-defenses from dominating the sky and subsequently push them back in a counter offensive is what a defensive force needs. For that, Pakistan's capabilities with the F-16s, JF-17s and the future procurement of the FC-20 (if Pakistan is even getting the FC-20) are enough to achieve that capability. Even with a 5th gen deployed by the enemy, Pakistan has the capability to effectively complete search and destroy missions, this is especially true if the JF-17 block III is made with stealth capabilities that is rumored to be in development.
> 
> Remember, we still don't know how well 5th gen fighters will fair in actual combat. For all their worth, they still haven't actually been deployed to a war zone. If we're to believe that 5th gen fighters are really as difficult to produce and put out in large numbers that many analysts claim they are, than we can extrapolate that Pakistan won't require it until at least 2020, and even. then, India won't have the numbers to effectively use them in any actual air combat.
> 
> Of course, this is just me talking out of my backside, I know very little about actual military tactics, let alone how to successfully win air campaigns.



Hi,

Thank you going around in circles so many times---the definition of defence that you tried to give in your first para is an offencive approach---. With the aircraft that paf has----it is not going to make much of a difference.

And why is it not----because the mental factor does not come into play---. Indians have already accepted mentally that su 30mki rules the roost----and they are not wrong when it comes to that---twin engine---two operators---a massive radar---a massive load of BVR's or other weapons----all a win win situation. 

Secondly----what makes them stronger is the numbers that they have of this aircraft----. So---they are entering a war cautious but fearless---. 

OTOH paf is entering this war as an under dog---right from gitgo and knowing about it as well---their mindset being----I will die for my country----which basically is a RUSE FOR FAILURE IN PREPARATION & HIDING INCOMPTENCE.

What pak needs to do is to come up with an air to air BVR that has a better % of kill ratio at a longer distance + an off bore sight missile + an aesa radar for its chinese aircraft.

5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manage and maintain----and there is a good chance that the indian air force may not opt for one in the near future either. They maybe humming and hawing about it----but I believe that they are blowing hot air.

Their PRIMARY AIRCRAFT FOR THE NEXT 15 TO 20 YEARS IS THE SU30MKI. That is what pak air force needs to be concerned about.

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## That Guy

Genesis said:


> 2020 is way to early, I predict effective and active use of 5th Gen will come no sooner than 2025 maybe further. Currently the F-35 is not doing great, and even when it finishes it will need time to manufacture and then some more time to be effective and to have an real use. China still needs Engine and there will probably be problems even after the engine, while USSR needs funds and still lots of work to be done. Real some what effective 5th generation force will be probably by 2020-2022, while some more years for it to be exported.
> 
> Though US with the F-22 maybe sooner, hard to say.
> 
> If truth be told, Pakistan won't truly need 5th gen until about 2030, while 4.5 Gen will serve well.



I don't know about that, 2020 is around the time that India start inducting their 5th gen, which is going to raise alarm bells in Islamabad. Once that happens, they'll start shopping around for a 5th gen of their own. I do think that it won't be needed until 2025, but after 2025, 4.5 gens will become obsolete because India will have inducted enough 5 gen air crafts to effectively neutralize Pakistan's air force. Of course, this isn't taking into account that China isn't actively trying to build anti-air weapons and next generation radars to counter any 5th generation air craft that is bound to come out of India, Japan and Russia.


----------



## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> *Hi,Thank you going around in circles so many times*



No need to be rude, we're just speculating here.



> *---the definition of defence that you tried to give in your first para is an offencive approach---. With the aircraft that paf has----it is not going to make much of a difference.*


 I suggest you re-read my comment, I've already said that it's a counter-offensive definition. Counter-offensive relies on first defending your post, and than launching an offensive to reverse of the gains that the enemy has made until status quo ante bellum at the very least is achieved. That way the defending nation, who launched the counter offensive has a bargaining chip, if the counter offensive succeeds. That is defensive in nation.

Have you ever heard the saying, the best defense is a good offense? In this case, it's very true. 




> *And why is it not----because the mental factor does not come into play---. Indians have already accepted mentally that su 30mki rules the roost----and they are not wrong when it comes to that---twin engine---two operators---a massive radar---a massive load of BVR's or other weapons----all a win win situation. *



Not quite true, but I see your point.



> *Secondly----what makes them stronger is the numbers that they have of this aircraft----. So---they are entering a war cautious but fearless---. *



I have already mentioned something similar, even though you mean over all air force, I tend to look at it a different way. India no longer is going by the "strength = numbers" approach, the proof of the pudding lies in the fact that India has been pushing ahead and buying up advanced weapons, and have been hording ToTs for a while now. This means that the IAF is far more than PAF, even though the advantage is slight. When they start rolling out their 5th gen in large enough numbers, PAF will have a crisis on it's hands.



> *OTOH paf is entering this war as an under dog---right from gitgo and knowing about it as well---their mindset being----I will die for my country----which basically is a RUSE FOR FAILURE IN PREPARATION & HIDING INCOMPTENCE.*



 Do you have evidence of this?



> *What pak needs to do is to come up with an air to air BVR that has a better % of kill ratio at a longer distance + an off bore sight missile + an aesa radar for its chinese aircraft.*



This I can see happening, but there is no current radar that can effectively detect a 5th gen fighter, at least one that other's have made outside of the US.



> *5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manage and maintain----and there is a good chance that the indian air force may not opt for one in the near future either. They maybe humming and hawing about it----but I believe that they are blowing hot air.*



I don't know about that, they've thrown a lot of money into the FGFA, they'd be stupid to just pull out, especially since they'd also lose national pride, which is something that no Indian government will allow.



> *Their PRIMARY AIRCRAFT FOR THE NEXT 15 TO 20 YEARS IS THE SU30MKI. That is what pak air force needs to be concerned about.*



 First of all (I'm going to repeat myself slightly here), until the time comes that they decide to cancel the deal, we must assume that India is going to buy it's first batch of 5th gens by 2020, which won't really be a threat, but what about after that? What about 2025, 2030, 2035? What happens when India brings in large enough numbers that they make Pakistan's air force look like a bunch of kids playing with toys? Once they start inducting the FGFA, you can bet you behind that they're going to start replacing the Su-30MKI with it.


----------



## gambit

Suggest you lay off the colorful font. The human brain works best when there are polar contrasts: black/white, up/down, right/left, etc...

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## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> [COLOR="#
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post----please make up on which side you want to take the stand.
> 
> IAF is planning to have 240---270 su30mki's----what is it now---140 as of now and and 100+ ordered. Which would make it an su30mki spearheaded air force. So or the next 15-20 years---it will be their mainstay aircraft.
> 
> Investing in pakfa was a natural course for iaf----the difficulties that are being faced by the 5th gen aircraft or the amount of money that is spent on their maintenance will be a matter of consideration of many an air force including Indian air force.
> 
> As for he paks pilots ready to die----that is what every one says---I am ready to die for my country---I will die for the cause---interviews of military / air force academy cadets or other pak defence forces personal---it is a common saying---.
> 
> Which in real terms means to try to scare the opponent because you don't have enough or you have not prepared enough----. Warriors who are capable don't have to say " I will die for my nation "---. It is already understood----when you cross the line to join.
> 
> For those 5th gen fighters coming in 20 + years from now----your answer would be air to air missiles and radars that are advanced enough to find and take out those aircraft---. Our border of incursion is of a limited scale---. You have certain ppoints of interests and to get to those---the opponent will take certain routes----and even if takes un-conventional routes----you still can retaliate.
> 
> What would hurt india the most----is EMBARRASSMENT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY----india has made the world believe that they are something and pakistan can be smashed by them if the world gives it THE NOD---.
> 
> Pakistan needs to findways and means to counter that threat---it needs to build up a resource of taking out the pride of iaf in the first three days---and then hold onto its position.
> 
> Their only hope now lies in their air to air weapons sytems.
> 
> But looking at pakistan----they will be still licking their wounds and crying the same sob story of not having any money----.
> 
> 
> Remember my children---ALLAH GIVES IN STRANGE WAYS----just because He did not give you in the ways that you envisioned of does not mean that it did not happen.
> 
> 9/11 was your get away card---you had the oppurtunity to make something out of yourself---you just had to take advantage of the situation as a nation----but how could you----YOU ARE NOT A NATION----YOU ARE INDETITY LESS PEOPLE----WITH NO DISCIPLINE UNITY OR BELIEF---.
> 
> Paks will be crying foe a lack of money and bad leadership 10 years from now----the same sob story continuing.

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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> That Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> [COLOR="#
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post----please make up on which side you want to take the stand.
> 
> IAF is planning to have 240---270 su30mki's----what is it now---140 as of now and and 100+ ordered. Which would make it an su30mki spearheaded air force. So or the next 15-20 years---it will be their mainstay aircraft.
> 
> Investing in pakfa was a natural course for iaf----the difficulties that are being faced by the 5th gen aircraft or the amount of money that is spent on their maintenance will be a matter of consideration of many an air force including Indian air force.
> 
> As for he paks pilots ready to die----that is what every one says---I am ready to die for my country---I will die for the cause---interviews of military / air force academy cadets or other pak defence forces personal---it is a common saying---.
> 
> Which in real terms means to try to scare the opponent because you don't have enough or you have not prepared enough----. Warriors who are capable don't have to say " I will die for my nation "---. It is already understood----when you cross the line to join.
> 
> For those 5th gen fighters coming in 20 + years from now----your answer would be air to air missiles and radars that are advanced enough to find and take out those aircraft---. Our border of incursion is of a limited scale---. You have certain ppoints of interests and to get to those---the opponent will take certain routes----and even if takes un-conventional routes----you still can retaliate.
> 
> What would hurt india the most----is EMBARRASSMENT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY----india has made the world believe that they are something and pakistan can be smashed by them if the world gives it THE NOD---.
> 
> Pakistan needs to findways and means to counter that threat---it needs to build up a resource of taking out the pride of iaf in the first three days---and then hold onto its position.
> 
> Their only hope now lies in their air to air weapons sytems.
> 
> But looking at pakistan----they will be still licking their wounds and crying the same sob story of not having any money----.
> 
> 
> Remember my children---ALLAH GIVES IN STRANGE WAYS----just because He did not give you in the ways that you envisioned of does not mean that it did not happen.
> 
> 9/11 was your get away card---you had the oppurtunity to make something out of yourself---you just had to take advantage of the situation as a nation----but how could you----YOU ARE NOT A NATION----YOU ARE INDETITY LESS PEOPLE----WITH NO DISCIPLINE UNITY OR BELIEF---.
> 
> Paks will be crying foe a lack of money and bad leadership 10 years from now----the same sob story continuing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you find time to visit a mental hospital?
Click to expand...

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## Luftwaffe

Munir said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you find time to visit a mental hospital?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Munir, You should bring convincing dinner to the table. Enemy is never a fool Thunders won't be able to score every time tactics of your enemy would also change. Those same old stories aren't believable all the time that our skies are safe. Instead of trying to insult others share with us something convincing so far there is nothing convincing on your side to say the least. When you keeping bringing in lack of funds and you need to convince people why do you go and check expensive toys in the first place wasting time and money at the same time bad mouthing them [french].
> 
> You mentioned about Mirages let me say something every military decision is strategic, had you order M-2000 indians wouldn't be operating them, had you ordered even 18 Rafales indians would have lost it out of mrca along F-16s. It is amazing that an Air Force goes with delegation thrice for mirage 2000 and comes back rejecting and settle for much inferior F-7Ps in 88-89 really is that a strategic decision. Did you know F-1 Mirages were only 16 Years against 6 year old mirage 2000 even by all standards F-1 Mirages were still young and much advance then F-7P and next best thing to M-2000 but PAF did not even considered it this is called pathetic decision making infact not focusing on Market complete absence of minds for the top brass of that time.
Click to expand...

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## ARSENAL6

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Bottomline----pak needs to stay away from the 5th gen aircraft and spend a 100 + millions on research of making the PL12 a better missile and pursuing a better quality aesa radar other than ground to air missile systems.
> 
> No nation can afford the 5th gen aircraft----they are the slu-ts of the highest order---take your money and leave you hanging in a crunch.




YOU hit the hammer on the nail there. There is no doubt that Pakistan needs to improve with research and Indiginous tech . Pak can not rely on other people

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## IceCold

Luftwaffe said:


> Munir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Munir, You should bring convincing dinner to the table. Enemy is never a fool Thunders won't be able to score every time tactics of your enemy would also change. Those same old stories aren't believable all the time that our skies are safe. Instead of trying to insult others share with us something convincing so far there is nothing convincing on your side to say the least. When you keeping bringing in lack of funds and you need to convince people why do you go and check expensive toys in the first place wasting time and money at the same time bath mouthing them [french].
> 
> You mentioned about Mirages let me say something every military decision is strategic, had you order M-2000 indians wouldn't be operating them, had you ordered even 18 Rafales indians would have lost it out of mrca along F-16s. It is amazing that an Air Force goes with delegation thrice for mirage 2000 and comes back rejecting and settle for much inferior F-7Ps in 88-89 really is that a strategic decision. Did you know F-1 Mirages were only 16 Years against 6 year old mirage 2000 even by all standards F-1 Mirages were still young and much advance then F-7P and next best thing to M-2000S but PAF did not even considered it this is called pathetic decision making infact not focusing on Market complete absence of minds for the top brass of that time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't have said any better. I find it surprising when people come up with this logic where is the money? Jf-17 can do this JF-17 can do that. For everything we have only one answer JF-17. For the love of God open your eyes, don't make JF-17 something which it is not.
> And for the question where is the money again you raised very valuable points, why wasted so much money on evaluating only to reject it latter for the much inferior planes. May i add that war is not a cricket match where opponents will play by the rules, an 11 member team will be met by the same. This is war and whether you have the money or not, you got to be prepared because the enemy will come at you with everything he's got.
Click to expand...

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## bc040400065

Well majority of TT's here have nothing to do then to tell us unknown sources told me this and that. They sometimes act like our pilots are trained by aliens or we have some alien secrect tech.


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## Munir

IceCold said:


> Luftwaffe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't have said any better. I find it surprising when people come up with this logic where is the money? Jf-17 can do this JF-17 can do that. For everything we have only one answer JF-17. For the love of God open your eyes, don't make JF-17 something which it is not.
> And for the question where is the money again you raised very valuable points, why wasted so much money on evaluating only to reject it latter for the much inferior planes. May i add that war is not a cricket match where opponents will play by the rules, an 11 member team will be met by the same. This is war and whether you have the money or not, you got to be prepared because the enemy will come at you with everything he's got.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really think we can afford 18 Rafales? Wow.
Click to expand...


----------



## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> That Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> [COLOR="#
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post----please make up on which side you want to take the stand.
> 
> IAF is planning to have 240---270 su30mki's----what is it now---140 as of now and and 100+ ordered. Which would make it an su30mki spearheaded air force. So or the next 15-20 years---it will be their mainstay aircraft.
> 
> Investing in pakfa was a natural course for iaf----the difficulties that are being faced by the 5th gen aircraft or the amount of money that is spent on their maintenance will be a matter of consideration of many an air force including Indian air force.
> 
> As for he paks pilots ready to die----that is what every one says---I am ready to die for my country---I will die for the cause---interviews of military / air force academy cadets or other pak defence forces personal---it is a common saying---.
> 
> Which in real terms means to try to scare the opponent because you don't have enough or you have not prepared enough----. Warriors who are capable don't have to say " I will die for my nation "---. It is already understood----when you cross the line to join.
> 
> For those 5th gen fighters coming in 20 + years from now----your answer would be air to air missiles and radars that are advanced enough to find and take out those aircraft---. Our border of incursion is of a limited scale---. You have certain ppoints of interests and to get to those---the opponent will take certain routes----and even if takes un-conventional routes----you still can retaliate.
> 
> What would hurt india the most----is EMBARRASSMENT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY----india has made the world believe that they are something and pakistan can be smashed by them if the world gives it THE NOD---.
> 
> Pakistan needs to findways and means to counter that threat---it needs to build up a resource of taking out the pride of iaf in the first three days---and then hold onto its position.
> 
> Their only hope now lies in their air to air weapons sytems.
> 
> But looking at pakistan----they will be still licking their wounds and crying the same sob story of not having any money----.
> 
> 
> Remember my children---ALLAH GIVES IN STRANGE WAYS----just because He did not give you in the ways that you envisioned of does not mean that it did not happen.
> 
> 9/11 was your get away card---you had the oppurtunity to make something out of yourself---you just had to take advantage of the situation as a nation----but how could you----YOU ARE NOT A NATION----YOU ARE INDETITY LESS PEOPLE----WITH NO DISCIPLINE UNITY OR BELIEF---.
> 
> Paks will be crying foe a lack of money and bad leadership 10 years from now----the same sob story continuing.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Everything you've said is based on the assumption that the Pakistan economy is actually quite strong (which it isn't) and the assumption that India won't actually buy 5th gen fighters and won't start replacing the Su-30MKI when they start inducting their 5th gen. Pakistan had hundreds of Mirage fighters, but that meant very little, considering they were old, which the Su-30MKI will be by that time. Remember, Pakistan isn't the only force that is challenging Indian supremacy in the region, China is too. India doesn't consider Pakistan a major threat, the reason why they will start replacing the Su-30MKI is because of China and because if they want to be able to afford to keep the maintenance on the 5th gens, they will have to retire a large amount of the Su-30MKI.
> 
> Nothing you've said actually challenges my points with facts, only baseless assumptions.
> 
> [quote="ARSENAL6, post: 4162266"]YOU hit the hammer on the nail there. There is no doubt that Pakistan needs to improve with research and Indiginous tech . Pak can not rely on other people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that, certainly Pakistan needs to improve it's R&D, but that doesn't mean that Pakistan shouldn't at least consider the idea of shopping around for a future 5th gen. If Pakistan gets the 5th gen from China, you can bet your behind that they will opt in for at least partial ToT, which will significantly help Pakistan's R&D.
Click to expand...


----------



## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everything you've said is based on the assumption that the Pakistan economy is actually quite strong (which it isn't) and the assumption that India won't actually buy 5th gen fighters and won't start replacing the Su-30MKI when they start inducting their 5th gen. Pakistan had hundreds of Mirage fighters, but that meant very little, considering they were old, which the Su-30MKI will be by that time. Remember, Pakistan isn't the only force that is challenging Indian supremacy in the region, China is too. India doesn't consider Pakistan a major threat, the reason why they will start replacing the Su-30MKI is because of China and because if they want to be able to afford to keep the maintenance on the 5th gens, they will have to retire a large amount of the Su-30MKI.
> 
> Nothing you've said actually challenges my points with facts, only baseless assumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that, certainly Pakistan needs to improve it's R&D, but that doesn't mean that Pakistan shouldn't at least consider the idea of shopping around for a future 5th gen. If Pakistan gets the 5th gen from China, you can bet your behind that they will opt in for at least partial ToT, which will significantly help Pakistan's R&D.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Just like in one of your previous posts---you mentioned----you just don't know much----and we concur---so could we please keep it that way.
Click to expand...


----------



## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> That Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Just like in one of your previous posts---you mentioned----you just don't know much----and we concur---so could we please keep it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course we don't know much, but there is a difference between basing our opinions on what we do know, no matter how little, and completely going in the opposite direction with our opinions.
> 
> If you want, let's end our conversation here.
Click to expand...


----------



## IceCold

Munir said:


> IceCold said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think we can afford 18 Rafales? Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will it matter when India will come in with full force?
Click to expand...


----------



## Storm Force

YOU GUYS ARE WRONG IF YOU THINK THE FGFA will be inducted to replace the SU30MKI 

SU30MKI will be around well into 2040 BUT will have upgraded features MOST OF WHICH will be spin off technology from FGFA and even technology gained from MMRCA rafale this includes internal weapons bays or WEAPOND PODS and much increased compsites materials with fifth gen EW suites/ radars & weapons again from SUKHOIS technology gainmed from PAK FA

The FGFA will enter in very small nos not until 2022 MINIMUM which gives PAF AMPLE time to see how J31 developes.

Very much like USA F22 programme the IAF have much reduced the FGFA nos to 144 planes and 8 sqds only. Even this will take IAF WELL INTO 2030 decade. 

THIS THREAD IS VERY PREMATURE FOR PAKISTANIS. The J31 is TOP SECRET chinease project and decade away.

PAK should try and find the resources for the additional F16/52 sqd of 18 planes FIRST 
THEN look to find away of buying FC20 with soft loans from china..

BOTH OF THESE ARE REALISTIC and take care of the real threat of the SU30MKI which is gowing rapidly to 160+ fighters already


----------



## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> YOU GUYS ARE WRONG IF YOU THINK THE FGFA will be inducted to replace the SU30MKI
> 
> SU30MKI will be around well into 2040 BUT will have upgraded features MOST OF WHICH will be spin off technology from FGFA and even technology gained from MMRCA rafale this includes internal weapons bays or WEAPOND PODS and much increased compsites materials with fifth gen EW suites/ radars & weapons again from SUKHOIS technology gainmed from PAK FA
> 
> The FGFA will enter in very small nos not until 2022 MINIMUM which gives PAF AMPLE time to see how J31 developes.
> 
> Very much like USA F22 programme the IAF have much reduced the FGFA nos to 144 planes and 8 sqds only. Even this will take IAF WELL INTO 2030 decade.
> 
> THIS THREAD IS VERY PREMATURE FOR PAKISTANIS. The J31 is TOP SECRET chinease project and decade away.
> 
> PAK should try and find the resources for the additional F16/52 sqd of 18 planes FIRST
> THEN look to find away of buying FC20 with soft loans from china..
> 
> BOTH OF THESE ARE REALISTIC and take care of the real threat of the SU30MKI which is gowing rapidly to 160+ fighters already



I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.

The reason why the F-22 only numbers in in 180s is because of budget cuts to the program, in order to save money and help reduce the deficit. The two situations (IAF with FGFA and USAF with F-22) are completely different. India my be cutting back on it's budget, it's very temporary, unlike the US which is looking to cut cost across the board for the next few years.

The J-31 is not a decade away, it is only 5-7 years away. The Chinese have made it very clear that they plan on full production by 2017-2019, and plan to export t by 2020, with the first export orders obviously coming from Pakistan and Central and East-African nations, where China has most influence and whom rely heavily on Chinese imports for their military.


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## Storm Force

So while usa and even india cant.afford f22 and.fgfa your telling.us that african countries and pakistan wil.be.inducting a chinease j31 by 2020... are you a.child ... or.a.joker


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## sancho

That Guy said:


> I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.



In this case he is right, FGFA will replace Mig 29 and Mirage 2000, which currently will be upgraded and initially was expected to replace 2 x squads of upgraded Mig 27s at first. Since the Mig 27s suffer technical problems, it seems they will be replaced earlier by MKIs, which leaves room for the FGFA to replace the oldest Jaguars as well.
The oldest MKIs in IAF are roughly 10 years old now and will need replacements only from 2035 onwards, while 4th and 4.5th gen fighters like LCA and Rafale are only about to come and will remain in service even longer. So these 3 won't need replacements for quiet some time and have no relation to FGFA at all.


----------



## That Guy

sancho said:


> In this case he is right, FGFA will replace Mig 29 and Mirage 2000, which currently will be upgraded and initially was expected to replace 2 x squads of upgraded Mig 27s at first. Since the Mig 27s suffer technical problems, it seems they will be replaced earlier by MKIs, which leaves room for the FGFA to replace the oldest Jaguars as well.
> The oldest MKIs in IAF are roughly 10 years old now and will need replacements only from 2035 onwards, while 4th and 4.5th gen fighters like LCA and Rafale are only about to come and will remain in service even longer. So these 3 won't need replacements for quiet some time and have no relation to FGFA at all.



The MKI is only a stop gap measure, it was not bought for any long term goals in mind, it was only bought to be a front line fighter to replace India's aging fleet of Migs and Mirages until the FGFA comes out and starts replacing the MKI as the front line fighter.

I highly doubt that the LCA is gonna go over the 250 mark for the number of air crafts the India will purchase, simply because to me it looks like the LCA project was just an experiment that India conducted to see how far their expertise in the air industry has gone. I easily see it as a means of India to boost it's confidence to start building it's own 5th gen and I don't have any doubt that we will see many things from the LCA be integrated into any 5th gen design that India develops.

As for the Rafale, I think India's gonna abandon the deal, It's already been delayed because of budget cuts, the best view I can give this deal is that India renegotiates the deal in the future and lower their order numbers to at most 150 and at least 50-70.


----------



## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> So while usa and even india cant.afford f22 and.fgfa your telling.us that african countries and pakistan wil.be.inducting a chinease j31 by 2020... are you a.child ... or.a.joker



Don't be rude, India can afford the FGFA and the USA can afford the F-22, they both just have no real use for them right now, which is why they're cutting costs to pay of their respective debts.

The reason why Pakistan and many African nations will be able to afford the J-31 is because 1) It's cost of purchase and maintenance is expected to be much MUCH lower than the FGFA and F-35. 2) Pakistan and many African nations that are allied to China will get it subsidised to them, with Pakistan most likely getting soft loans to buy the planes. In the end, China will benefit, even if it costs them a ton of money. The more nations that rely on China, the less influence the US will have over them. This is similar to how the Soviets won friends in Africa, Latin America and even India, they either gave a ton of military equipment to allied nations, or they simply subsidised them to make it attractive for nations to side with the USSR. This is not the approach the US made until the mid 80s, when they started to play the same game as the soviets, of course, after the fall of the USSR, the US didn't need to do such a thing, because they had already proven their worth.

You call me a child, yet I use logic, and you use nothing but emotions to back your claim.

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## Storm Force

China going to subsidence their greatest tech to Pakistan and Africa. Sounds fantasy wish


----------



## surya kiran

That Guy said:


> Don't be rude, India can afford the FGFA and the USA can afford the F-22, they both just have no real use for them right now, which is why they're cutting costs to pay of their respective debts.
> 
> The reason why Pakistan and many African nations will be able to afford the J-31 is because 1) It's cost of purchase and maintenance is expected to be much MUCH lower than the FGFA and F-35. 2) Pakistan and many African nations that are allied to China will get it subsidised to them, with Pakistan most likely getting soft loans to buy the planes. In the end, China will benefit, even if it costs them a ton of money. The more nations that rely on China, the less influence the US will have over them. This is similar to how the Soviets won friends in Africa, Latin America and even India, they either gave a ton of military equipment to allied nations, or they simply subsidised them to make it attractive for nations to side with the USSR. This is not the approach the US made until the mid 80s, when they started to play the same game as the soviets, of course, after the fall of the USSR, the US didn't need to do such a thing, because they had already proven their worth.
> 
> You call me a child, yet I use logic, and you use nothing but emotions to back your claim.



Don't you think, the countries will need to go through the learning curve? While, the Chinese may from their end subsidise the end product, there will be a learning curve to be achieved. And this will include moving from trainer style aircraft to fifth generation aircraft. Also, maintenance will require a learning curve. So while the Chinese may be able to keep their end of the bargain, whether the 'allied' partners can do that is a separate question. Ofcourse, this is based on the assumption, that tomorrow the US/French/Russians don't produce a mass produce/transfer an aircraft which may well suit the requirements of the African airforces.


----------



## sancho

That Guy said:


> The MKI is only a stop gap measure, it was not bought for any long term goals in mind, it was only bought to be a front line fighter to replace India's aging fleet of Migs and Mirages until the FGFA comes out and starts replacing the MKI as the front line fighter.



 Whatever makes you happy.


----------



## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Being a new member ( not even a month ) you need to be reminded that there are " no face palms " in this discussion as much as you want to disagree. Discuss like a man----agree to disagree---.
> 
> Please learn the decorum of the board.

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## Falcon29

I'm a little confused, could someone tell me if this F-60 is the Pak Fa project jointly by Russia and Pakistan? Or am I mistaken?


----------



## 420canada

Hazzy997 said:


> I'm a little confused, could someone tell me if this F-60 is the Pak Fa project jointly by Russia and Pakistan? Or am I mistaken?



it is Russian and Indian. the pak-fa was made by Russia and funded by India. j-31 i do not know but i think it is the second stealth fighter jet of china after the j-20.

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## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> That Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Being a new member ( not even a month ) you need to be reminded that there are " no face palms " in this discussion as much as you want to disagree. Discuss like a man----agree to disagree---.
> 
> Please learn the decorum of the board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may be new to this particular forum, but that doesn't mean that I can't criticize or express my frustration at a particular and factually wrong comment. As long as I'm not rude, I'm not breaking any rules, and I don't see how that was a rude comment.
> 
> 
> 
> sancho said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever makes you happy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not really, I don't care either way, I'm just putting forth my own particular analysis of the situation, I'm not really saying I'm right, but what I'm saying is that from my point of view, this is most likely.
Click to expand...


----------



## That Guy

surya kiran said:


> Don't you think, the countries will need to go through the learning curve? While, the Chinese may from their end subsidise the end product, there will be a learning curve to be achieved. And this will include moving from trainer style aircraft to fifth generation aircraft. Also, maintenance will require a learning curve. So while the Chinese may be able to keep their end of the bargain, whether the 'allied' partners can do that is a separate question. Ofcourse, this is based on the assumption, that tomorrow the US/French/Russians don't produce a mass produce/transfer an aircraft which may well suit the requirements of the African airforces.



Of course, you make a valid point, but that only fits if the Chinese aren't gonna be involved heavily in the maintenance from the get go. What I see happening is that the Chinese are going to do most of the maintenance in the beginning, not to mention that Chinese air-force doctrine uses the "easy to maintain, easy to use" method for most of it's fighters.

Let's be totally honest, besides 2-5 African nations, most of them won't be able to afford and maintain a fleet of F-35s or any other modern US-EU aircraft in large enough numbers. This is why most of them buy from Russia and China, because they tend to be cheaper and easier to maintain. The 5th gen J-31 from China is going to be a prime choice for the African market because they'll be cheaper and will have similar capabilities as the F-35 in many situations.


----------



## sancho

That Guy said:


> Not really, I don't care either way, I'm just putting forth my own particular analysis of the situation, I'm not really saying I'm right, but what I'm saying is that from my point of view, this is most likely.



Fair enough, we all have our own point of views, but you couldn't be more wrong about this! MKI as stop gap? FGFA was not even close to be considered when we decided about the Su 30s and it's a simple calculation to understand, that FGFA can't replace MKI, since the oldest MKIs will only be around 18 years old by then, with a normal lifecycle expectation of IAF between 30 and 40 years.
So the relations that you have created doesn't fit and similar can be said about Rafales, since the deal has a high industrial requirement too, otherwise we would have bought 126 x Mirage 2000-5s years ago as IAF wanted. You will find a lot of infos about this in the Indian section of the forum, which might be good to get a better idea about these things.


----------



## That Guy

sancho said:


> Fair enough, we all have our own point of views, but you couldn't be more wrong about this! MKI as stop gap? FGFA was not even close to be considered when we decided about the Su 30s and it's a simple calculation to understand, that FGFA can't replace MKI, since the oldest MKIs will only be around 18 years old by then, with a normal lifecycle expectation of IAF between 30 and 40 years.
> So the relations that you have created doesn't fit and similar can be said about Rafales, since the deal has a high industrial requirement too, otherwise we would have bought 126 x Mirage 2000-5s years ago as IAF wanted. You will find a lot of infos about this in the Indian section of the forum, which might be good to get a better idea about these things.



I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the MKI be retired, I'm saying the MKI will be phased out as a front line fighter and replaced with the FGFA. The MKI will only be used as a second line of defense, not the front line.

I actually got most of my info from the indian side of the forums, so I think I can't really be accused of bias or anything, when most of my sources are from Indian forumites, not that I'm suggesting that you're calling me bias.


----------



## Storm Force

In reply to That GUY



> This is why most of them buy from Russia and China, because they tend to be cheaper and easier to maintain. The 5th gen J-31 from China is going to be a prime choice for the African market because they'll be cheaper and will have similar capabilities as the F-35 in many situations.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-20.html#ixzz2Qk8WjpVU



HOW CAN YOU CLAIM J31 will have similar capabilities as F35 its 10 years away from induction into PLAAF and 20 years away from export...(THATS EVEN IF THE CHINEASE WISH TO EXPRT THEIR HI END STUFF)

Russian & chinease fighters ARE not easier to maintain ON THE CONTRARY they require higher maintenmance esp engines. 

5th generation COSTS per flight and costs per maintenmance are said to FAR HIGHER than 4th generation. SO PLZ TELL WHICH COUNTRY will afford SUCH HI END technology in AFRICA... 

INDEED at this moment in time with a TINY BUDGET i,m not sure even PAF could afford a $60 or $70m J31 FIGHTER. and no i doubt CHINA will be giving them away. THIS PROJECT cost them $biliions and is TOP SECRET .. THIS IS NOT A BUDGET PROGRAMME like F7 & JF17 . 

We are talking serious tech & serious MONEY

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## RazorMC

Storm Force said:


> In reply to That GUY
> 
> 
> 
> HOW CAN YOU CLAIM J31 will have similar capabilities as F35 its 10 years away from induction into PLAAF and 20 years away from export...(THATS EVEN IF THE CHINEASE WISH TO EXPRT THEIR HI END STUFF)
> 
> Russian & chinease fighters ARE not easier to maintain ON THE CONTRARY they require higher maintenmance esp engines.
> 
> 5th generation COSTS per flight and costs per maintenmance are said to FAR HIGHER than 4th generation. SO PLZ TELL WHICH COUNTRY will afford SUCH HI END technology in AFRICA...
> 
> INDEED at this moment in time with a TINY BUDGET i,m not sure even PAF could afford a $60 or $70m J31 FIGHTER. and no i doubt CHINA will be giving them away. THIS PROJECT cost them $biliions and is TOP SECRET .. THIS IS NOT A BUDGET PROGRAMME like F7 & JF17 .
> 
> We are talking serious tech & serious MONEY




Unfortunately, you are right here.

PAF's budget can not accommodate anything higher than 4th gen atm. Let alone African markets.

And the Chinese are not going to share their state of the art with anyone, incl Pakistan. Maybe a trimmed-down version a few years after they've inducted into PLAAF is the best PAF can look for.

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## Storm Force

F22 RAPTOR was the worlds first 5th gen fighter. USA has ponit blank refused to SELL THIS to any allies this includes ISRAEL & JAPAN both countries have pleaded with USA but to no avail.. This plane is so expensive to buy at over $200m each and hugh cost to fly the USA cut the orders to 187 planes

F35 LIGHTENING is a slightly watered and smaller jet BUT to date the only nations WHO will buy this FIRST afTER usa ARE THE joint development partners like UK NORWAY DENMARK and TURKEY . they are all part of the development group and have contributed hard dollars. estimated cost of F35 IS $120M EACH 

pak fa is a Russian 5th gen fighter AND they have invited india into the pgramme to help FUND the development which is costing india $4 billion up front. Unit cost will be over $100m estimated . INDIA has already cut the order to 144 max for now

CHINA J31 & J20 projects are their own no partners involved. HENCE no reason to share the tech. Capability wise i expect simlar to FGFA & F35 . Price wise if they include TVC engines and AESA radars like FGFA & F22 it cannnot be less than $70m each . THIS WILL BE CUTTING EDGE chinease technology. 

TIME FRAME for overseas mass export BUY THOSE THAT CAN AFFORD THEM 

F22 NEVER EXCLUISIVE TO USA
F35 post 2020 
FGFA 2025
J20 NEVER EXCLUSIVE PLAAF 
J31 2020-2025


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## Nishan_101

If not wrong then we heard and some what confirmed that PAC has joined in with Chinese over the development of 5th or 6th Generation aircraft. I am sure that its still hidden and I hope it remain hidden for longer period. For the time being I would prefer that PAC should work closely with CAC over Block-IIs that will incorporate:
1. Composites
2. RD-93B(Local Assembly at PAC)
3. FLIR and IRST Pod under air-intakes(both of them integrated and no problem with gun as its far apart).
4. Retractable In Flight Refueling Probe.
5. Better Sensors and Avionics.
*6. Dual Seat Aircraft.*

Then I am sure it would be great for the PAC to produce about 80 single seat and 30 dual seat along with 35-41 dual seat of Block-IIs as AJT for CSS.


----------



## Storm Force

Nishan.

WHISLT its 100% FEASIBLE that PAC has and is involved in the BLOCK 2 JF17 upgrade (afterall this is a PAF specfic project)

I would be astonished with the rest of your claim. 

CHINA HAS 2 5TH GEN PROJECTS on the go already ie J20/J31 if the are comparable TO FGFA or F35 in technology these will cost $billions and a decade to reach full maturity and full combat service. IN OTHER WORDS CHINA HAS ITS HANDS FULL.

Are you suggesting a 3RD PROGRAMME which i seriously doubt or that PAC is a partner in J31 ETC. 

More importantly what will PAC bring they have no technology and unlike INDIA have no $4 billion to invest in project.

so why would CHINA INVITE PAC. 

unforunately the REAL POLITCAL * BUSINESS WORLD DEALS IN CURRENCY. wat currency is PAC providing 

as for 6th GENERATION OTHER THAN USA the rest of the world including CHINA this is far fetched fantasy 

for the record CHINA IS YEARS BEHIND THE WEST including russia on both AESA radars & ENGINE technology. 

6th gen programmes top secret !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

with PAC involvement SOME CONVINCING NEEDED HERE FOLKES


----------



## Zabaniyah

420canada said:


> it is Russian and Indian. the pak-fa was made by Russia and funded by India. j-31 i do not know but i think it is the second stealth fighter jet of china after the j-20.



A little correction. 

PAK-FA is a program developed by Sukhoi. 

FGFA is a another program derived from PAK-FA jointly developed by Sukhoi and HAL. 

J-31 has no relation with the PAK-FA program.

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## COOKie LOOkie....

come on y all after making a complete 4th gen plane with china and manufacturing most of its components and a magestic role in its design, and the only production line of this jet is KAMRA. then why do u guys still question about pakistan knowing about fighter planes this is absurd.. this is something of common sence, yes if we talk about 5th gen plane yes we never have experienced about it whatsoever... but making it 5th gen doesnt make it alien technology its still a plane its still based on old models.. secondly about pak involved in it.. do u know what a secret project means its means even if pak is involved no one is going to know... on the other hand india is in cooperation with russian 5th gen project but if we see india is still struggling with its 4th gen plane, but still you guys cant be questioned about what tech could u share with russia for its project.... think about it..and about your own indegeous project FGFA none of you all can predict what it would be or when it would it enter service until any prototype is show.. so we cannot compare it with f 35 of j 31 yet as it has no prototype... i am not saying its not of its class but its lack a bit proof...


----------



## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> In reply to That GUY
> 
> 
> 
> HOW CAN YOU CLAIM J31 will have similar capabilities as F35 its 10 years away from induction into PLAAF and 20 years away from export...(THATS EVEN IF THE CHINEASE WISH TO EXPRT THEIR HI END STUFF)
> 
> Russian & chinease fighters ARE not easier to maintain ON THE CONTRARY they require higher maintenmance esp engines.
> 
> 5th generation COSTS per flight and costs per maintenmance are said to FAR HIGHER than 4th generation. SO PLZ TELL WHICH COUNTRY will afford SUCH HI END technology in AFRICA...
> 
> INDEED at this moment in time with a TINY BUDGET i,m not sure even PAF could afford a $60 or $70m J31 FIGHTER. and no i doubt CHINA will be giving them away. THIS PROJECT cost them $biliions and is TOP SECRET .. THIS IS NOT A BUDGET PROGRAMME like F7 & JF17 .
> 
> We are talking serious tech & serious MONEY



Can you please read my comment before replying? Thanks.

I'm not gonna waste my time repeating things to you, because you didn't bother to actually read my comments or much more even look up facts about this particular subject.


----------



## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> Can you please read my comment before replying? Thanks.
> 
> I'm not gonna waste my time repeating things to you, because you didn't bother to actually read my comments or much more even look up facts about this particular subject.



Kid,

Don't you get it by now that your comments don't make any sense to anyone----. Don't you get it by the reaction you are getting from the other posters---there is no head or tail to what you have been saying----you posts have no direction.

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## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> Kid,
> 
> Don't you get it by now that your comments don't make any sense to anyone----. Don't you get it by the reaction you are getting from the other posters---there is no head or tail to what you have been saying----you posts have no direction.



Kid? I'm 21 years old, where do you get off calling me a kid?

My comment makes perfect sense, because I've already answered all his points, but he doesn't seem to actually want to read it and neither do you.

Before you go off insult everyone, maybe you should actually point out where my flaws are, and if I addressed them or not.


----------



## That Guy

RazorMC said:


> Unfortunately, you are right here.
> 
> PAF's budget can not accommodate anything higher than 4th gen atm. Let alone African markets.
> 
> And the Chinese are not going to share their state of the art with anyone, incl Pakistan. Maybe a trimmed-down version a few years after they've inducted into PLAAF is the best PAF can look for.



See, I sort of agree, right now it's impossible, but by 2020, right around the same time as India, Pakistan's economy will hopefully be good enough to consider it.

I would also like to point that there is a misconception that every nation in Africa is poor, but that's simply not true. Nigeria, Kenya, North Sudan, Sierra Leone, Burkina Faso, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast...etc, are all quite rich, and almost all of them have extremely fast growing economies. This is a prime market, especially since most of them are looking to replace their aging fleet. Nigeria is already trying to replace it's aging Chinese F-7 fleet and it has the money to do so. There were rumors that they might opt in for the JF-17, but nothing has been reported as of yet.

As for the Chinese not sharing their state of the art tech with Pakistan and African nations, the J-31 is an export model and the only nations that buy Chinese fighters are Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and a hand full of African nations. Do you really think that any nation that can afford the F-35 or the PAK-FA (the export version) will want the J-31? Nope, because the J-31 is specially designed as a cheaper alternative to the F-35, which makes the J-31 the perfect fighter for nations with either not so great economies, or emerging economies such as Nigeria.

Evidence...

AIRSHOW CHINA: AVIC proposes stealth fighter for export

Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2012-11-08/209588_2260843.htm (google translate this one)


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## RazorMC

That Guy said:


> See, I sort of agree, right now it's impossible, but by 2020, right around the same time as India, Pakistan's economy will hopefully be good enough to consider it.
> 
> I would also like to point that there is a misconception that every nation in Africa is poor, but that's simply not true. Nigeria, Kenya, North Sudan, Sierra Leone, Burkina Faso, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast...etc, are all quite rich, and almost all of them have extremely fast growing economies. This is a prime market, especially since most of them are looking to replace their aging fleet. Nigeria is already trying to replace it's aging Chinese F-7 fleet and it has the money to do so. There were rumors that they might opt in for the JF-17, but nothing has been reported as of yet.
> 
> As for the Chinese not sharing their state of the art tech with Pakistan and African nations, the J-31 is an export model and the only nations that buy Chinese fighters are Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and a hand full of African nations. Do you really think that any nation that can afford the F-35 or the PAK-FA (the export version) will want the J-31? Nope, because the J-31 is specially designed as a cheaper alternative to the F-35, which makes the J-31 the perfect fighter for nations with either not so great economies, or emerging economies such as Nigeria.
> 
> Evidence...
> 
> AIRSHOW CHINA: AVIC proposes stealth fighter for export
> 
> Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter
> 
> ????-???-????????????? (google translate this one)




Look, we don't have to just buy the aircraft, there's maintenance, flight costs, cost of importing vs. assembling locally and countless other stuff that goes in the total cost calculation. Someone with procurement knowledge can giude us here, but buying aircraft is not a straightforward deal.

And the African countries that you mentioned are probably going to have a very large air patrol force, but that's about it.

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## MastanKhan

RazorMC said:


> Look, we don't have to just buy the aircraft, there's maintenance, flight costs, cost of importing vs. assembling locally and countless other stuff that goes in the total cost calculation. Someone with procurement knowledge can giude us here, but buying aircraft is not a straightforward deal.
> 
> And the African countries that you mentioned are probably going to have a very large air patrol force, but that's about it.



Hi,

Thank you for your post---. No african nation is capable to maintain and manage a fleet of F7's except for souh africa. Nigeria is a terrible example of incompetence. Their record reflects poorly of the flight and maintenance capabilities of the F7's that they have.

To sell them Jf17's just for the sake of making a sale---I think would be a poor decision.

5th gen aircraft look good on the paper---but it is just like an average Joe buying a ferrari---and realizing that the 30000 miles service cost 7000---10000 dollars as compared to 300 dollars on a regular car.

Taiwan recently retired their mirage 2k's---it was rumored the the m2k's were expensive on maintenance---even though it was to discredit mirage to please someone else----the 5th gen takes maintainence expense to a tottaly different pleateau.

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## Zabaniyah

> The increasing costs of the new U.S. F-35 fighter is scaring off foreign buyers. The latest country to express doubts about the cost and effectiveness of the F-35 versus their current jet fighters (often F-16s) is the Netherlands. *Although the Dutch are buying two F-35s for evaluation, it&#8217;s already been noted that the F-35 costs 60 percent more (than the F-16, per flight hour) to operate.* For European nations, with static or shrinking defense budgets and growing demands to help with peacekeeping operations, more expensive (to buy and operate) jet fighters just don&#8217;t fit in.



Source:Warplanes: F-35 Costs Driving Away Buyers

I'd have to say, 5th generation planes have their perks


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## RazorMC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post---. No african nation is capable to maintain and manage a fleet of F7's except for souh africa. Nigeria is a terrible example of incompetence. Their record reflects poorly of the flight and maintenance capabilities of the F7's that they have.
> 
> To sell them Jf17's just for the sake of making a sale---I think would be a poor decision.
> 
> 5th gen aircraft look good on the paper---but it is just like an average Joe buying a ferrari---and realizing that the 30000 miles service cost 7000---10000 dollars as compared to 300 dollars on a regular car.
> 
> Taiwan recently retired their mirage 2k's---it was rumored the the m2k's were expensive on maintenance---even though it was to discredit mirage to please someone else----the 5th gen takes maintainence expense to a tottaly different pleateau.




Exactly, their failures would reflect badly on any prospect of selling the Thunders to a real air force. It will better not to sell than to ruin its reputation at the hands of an incompetent force.

And the cost factor is what I was trying to point out to That Guy. The coating (an re-application after every flight) of even the F-117As would become a burden on PAF's resources. Then there's the storage requirements etc etc.

Just out of out reach atm. PAF has more feasible plans that suit our budget and requirements.

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## That Guy

RazorMC said:


> Look, we don't have to just buy the aircraft, there's maintenance, flight costs, cost of importing vs. assembling locally and countless other stuff that goes in the total cost calculation. Someone with procurement knowledge can giude us here, but buying aircraft is not a straightforward deal.
> 
> And the African countries that you mentioned are probably going to have a very large air patrol force, but that's about it.



Thanks for replying (&#8226;&#8255;&#8226

Of course, I've accounted that into my calculations, but who says that Pakistan or even those nations I've posted about even need a large force? Who says they need 100 fighters? For example, Nigeria, according to wiki, only has about 12 F-7s and a handful of Su-24s and Su-27s.

Pakistan doesn't need to buy over a 100, it just needs enough to be effective, the JF-17 is meant to be the main front line fighter until at least 2040, by 2020, Pakistan would probably be economically stable enough to at least think about at least 2 squadrons. 45-50 planes would be enough to suit Pakistan's needs, of not less and by 2025-30, Pakistan will probably make a move to upgrade it's (by then) aging fleet. By that time, maintenance costs are sure to go down, and effectiveness of the planes are sure to go up.


The only reason why Pakistan may not buy the J-31 in it's current form is because of it's twin engines. While Pakistan has operated twin engine planes before, Pakistan has traditionally stayed away from them, and stuck with single engine planes for various reasons, not least to do with Pakistan's poor economy.


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## That Guy

RazorMC said:


> Exactly, their failures would reflect badly on any prospect of selling the Thunders to a real air force. It will better not to sell than to ruin its reputation at the hands of an incompetent force.
> 
> And the cost factor is what I was trying to point out to That Guy. The coating (an re-application after every flight) of even the F-117As would become a burden on PAF's resources. Then there's the storage requirements etc etc.
> 
> Just out of out reach atm. PAF has more feasible plans that suit our budget and requirements.



Like I just said in my previous post, I've already taken that into account.

Besides, selling planes to nations has more to do with economics and politics than the actual planes themselves. It's the Chinese who'll sell the planes, not Pakistan, and the Chinese want to show that more and more nations are relying on them for defense rather than the US and Russia. They could care less about the actual effectiveness of the planes.


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## MastanKhan

RazorMC said:


> Exactly, their failures would reflect badly on any prospect of selling the Thunders to a real air force. It will better not to sell than to ruin its reputation at the hands of an incompetent force.
> 
> And the cost factor is what I was trying to point out to That Guy. The coating (an re-application after every flight) of even the F-117As would become a burden on PAF's resources. Then there's the storage requirements etc etc.
> 
> Just out of out reach atm. PAF has more feasible plans that suit our budget and requirements.



Hi,

Thank you for your posts----people don't realize or don't know that it is cheaper to come up with counter measures agains the 5th gen aircraft in this age of technology---. Pakistan in its current situation really does not need any 5th gen aircraft---its geography has no need of that aircraft.

Pakistan can get better results by spending 10-20 % of the amount of the purchase of 30 5th gen aircraft on better air to air and ground to air missile defence systems and other assets like and aesa radar and PL12----. 

India cannot afford this aircraft either---regardless of what they say---.

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## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your posts----people don't realize or don't know that it is cheaper to come up with counter measures agains the 5th gen aircraft in this age of technology---. Pakistan in its current situation really does not need any 5th gen aircraft---its geography has no need of that aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan can get better results by spending 10-20 % of the amount of the purchase of 30 5th gen aircraft on better air to air and ground to air missile defence systems and other assets like and aesa radar and PL12----.
> 
> India cannot afford this aircraft either---regardless of what they say---.



For once, I agree with you. Pakistan has no need for it right now, and with the budget cuts, India can't afford it currently either, nor does it need a 5th gen right now anyways.

I do have to say, it's not just a matter of geography that 5th gens are effective at, for all intents and purposes, the J-31 doesn't really need to be super-cruise, just like the F-35. It's the stealth aspect that matters most about the 5th gen fighters.

After the Vietnam war, US defense experts concluded that most single aircraft that were shot down or were the ones that did the shooting often did this without the target actually seeing the shooter. This led them to believe that 5th gens should and do need to have a stealth aspect to help hide the plane's signature off of enemy radar. This was later proven when the US conducted a confidence test with one F-22s and four F-15 eagles, in which the F-22 took down each of the F-15 fighters without even being seen. Of course, the down side of this was that later on, during the red flag exercises 2012, while the F-22s were making major gains, once German fighters visually found the F-22s, they were able to close the gap and according to one of the German pilots who was quoted as saying "Yesterday we had Raptor (F-22) salad for lunch!", meant that the F-22's advantage quickly disappeared.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...ses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/


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## That Guy

oops, double post.


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## farhan_9909

Those thinking PAF wont be in position to buy a 5th gen in 2020

Remember that in 2004 when India entered into the FGFA project.there defence budget only was 12bn USD.
when they started there own aircraft carrier program there defecne budget was only 17bn

Pakistan defence budget at the moment is 6.5bn+2.5bn=9bn(2.5bn of nuclear program budget)

As we all know Mushy included pensions and related budgets into development budget so the official defence budget appear even smaller.

Which means 1bn addition more and most important as the zardari govt admitted giving off 650billions pkr to Military within the last 5 years or roughly 1.2billions per year

so add 2.2bn to 9bn=11.2billions

Each year the budget increases by 15% atleast and now add to this the economic growth scale it is to witness in imran era

by 2015-16 our defence budget would be atleast 15billions or more.and
onwards 2015 a new era of purchasing by pak military will start like the indian started onwards 2000


WOT will also be stopped which means no more billions of spending on WOT


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## Luftwaffe

farhan_9909 said:


> Those thinking PAF wont be in position to buy a 5th gen in 2020



That was iaf operational budget their procurement budget is much higher beyond limits they have power to buy anything. 

I shall repeat and will keep on repeating get better ground radars, Air Space coverage with as many high-medium altitude SAM systems which is still many times cheaper then 5th Gen, AESA/PESA radars for Thunder in near Future or atleast equip couple of squadrons with Selex based AESA, order AESA for Vipers, throw in money to China to develop better variant of SD-10A [B/C], negotiate with US to allow AMRAAMs integration with JF-17 it takes effort why sit lazy how hard is it if US is approached if they refuse approach French. These are relatively steps before stepping into 5th Gen. Am I wrong have your say.

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## hurt

MastanKhan said:


> Taiwan recently retired their mirage 2k's---it was rumored the the m2k's were expensive on maintenance---even though it was to discredit mirage to please someone else----the 5th gen takes maintainence expense to a tottaly different pleateau.


its truth that the m2000-5 were expensive on maintenance.
Taiwan own 145 F-16A/Bs and 126 IDFs and 56 m2000-5s.
Cost for buy Parts in 2009 
F-16A/B cost 19Millions 
IDF cost 53Millions
m2000-5 cost 70Millions

TW own capability to maintain and manage

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## araz

hurt said:


> its truth that the m2000-5 were expensive on maintenance.
> Taiwan own 145 F-16A/Bs and 126 IDFs and 56 m2000-5s.
> Cost for buy Parts in 2009
> F-16A/B cost 19Millions
> IDF cost 53Millions
> m2000-5 cost 70Millions
> 
> TW own capability to maintain and manage



Thank you for this informative post. We have news from a few countries that state that M2000 series have been retired due to cost considerations. They have always been expensive machines to maintain and the fact that the assembly and supply line has long since closed does not help. This is the reason why PAF is buying old M3/5s from all over the place to maintain its fleet.
Araz


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## INDIAISM

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your posts----people don't realize or don't know that it is cheaper to come up with counter measures agains the 5th gen aircraft in this age of technology---. Pakistan in its current situation really does not need any 5th gen aircraft---its geography has no need of that aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan can get better results by spending 10-20 % of the amount of the purchase of 30 5th gen aircraft on better air to air and ground to air missile defence systems and other assets like and aesa radar and PL12----.
> *
> India cannot afford this aircraft either---regardless of what they say---.*



Sir here we are not talking about 2013-2014...Here we are talking about 2020-25 by then Indian defence budget will be around 80 to 100 Billion Dollars which is more then enough for the procurment of 5th Gen Fighter Jet....


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## Munir

I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....


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## RazorMC

Munir said:


> I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....




Maybe the parts are hard to come by nowadays, hence the price. Aren't we making those ourselves??


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## hurt

Munir said:


> I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....



Mirage 2000-5 are not only expensive,France never can supply enough parts to taiwan in time.TW only keep half of Mirage 2000-5s to fly.


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## Luftwaffe

araz said:


> Thank you for this informative post. We have news from a few countries that state that M2000 series have been retired due to cost considerations. They have always been expensive machines to maintain and the fact that the assembly and supply line has long since closed does not help. This is the reason why PAF is buying old M3/5s from all over the place to maintain its fleet.
> Araz



So older Mirage III/V are cheaper to maintain then M2000? for the fact that production assembly had shut down in mid 70s? That's strange because the older the aircraft/airframe gets the expensive it gets to maintain unless you've in house parts assembly established. M2000/-5/-9 production assembly seized to operate in 2007/2008 is expected to be reopened for the time to modernized/produce additional spares for IAF M2000. Also I'm thinking Mirages/Rafale are developed by same Dassault so how is it hard to produce spares/maintain older generation Aircrafts. As the latest news is F-1 mirages could be sold to Argentina modernized along with spares as well as F-1s for Libyan Air Force and the on going modernization for F-1s of Moroccan Air Force.


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## Luftwaffe

Munir said:


> I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....



Post the link.

Don't bad mouth about French, Americans also screwed us on several occasions remember that. It was PAF decision to buy MIII/V from australia/libya/lebanon so don't complain.


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## MastanKhan

INDIAISM said:


> Sir here we are not talking about 2013-2014...Here we are talking about 2020-25 by then Indian defence budget will be around 80 to 100 Billion Dollars which is more then enough for the procurment of 5th Gen Fighter Jet....



Hi,

Procurement is not the problem----you can get them today----but it is the maintenance that breaks the camel's back.


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## That Guy

INDIAISM said:


> Sir here we are not talking about 2013-2014...Here we are talking about 2020-25 by then Indian defence budget will be around 80 to 100 Billion Dollars which is more then enough for the procurment of 5th Gen Fighter Jet....



I agree with you, a lot of the people who claim that India or Pakistan can't afford the fighters don't really understand that we're talking about the 2020-25 time frame. Currently, yes, both nations don't have the money, because of Pakistan's economy, and India's defense budget cuts, but by 2020 that will all change.

People also keep stating the maintenance costs, but by 2020-25 those same costs are probably going to go down and the economies of both nations is expected to grow quite well by that time.


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## araz

Luftwaffe said:


> So older Mirage III/V are cheaper to maintain then M2000? for the fact that production assembly had shut down in mid 70s? That's strange because the older the aircraft/airframe gets the expensive it gets to maintain unless you've in house parts assembly established. M2000/-5/-9 production assembly seized to operate in 2007/2008 is expected to be reopened for the time to modernized/produce additional spares for IAF M2000. Also I'm thinking Mirages/Rafale are developed by same Dassault so how is it hard to produce spares/maintain older generation Aircrafts. As the latest news is F-1 mirages could be sold to Argentina modernized along with spares as well as F-1s for Libyan Air Force and the on going modernization for F-1s of Moroccan Air Force.



The M3/5 we bought from australia and Libya were bought because they were cheapand had a lot of life(especially the Libyanframes) in them. Both the deals were advantageous because not only could we increase numbers but also canabolize the rest for spares. Over the years we may have developed the ability to manufacture some of the parts but mostly we need to rely on the french for spares and they do charge a lot.The M2K was a nightmare fro. the maintenance point of view. Qatar mothballed them UAE arent flying them much and the only reason for them to consider the Rafale inapite of their admission that the Rafale was underpowered for their hot climate was the french saying they will buy the M2K5s back.The Saudi deal for EF may have been another reason but this was a major condition.
Araz


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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> THAT GUY
> 
> you keep BRACKETTING the indian & pakistan PURCHASE POWER has in the SAME LEAGUE
> 
> YOU COULDNT be more wrong
> 
> India GDP is somewhere between $1.9 trillion to $2.0 trillion @ 2.3% defence budget this is some $41- 45 billion per year
> 
> Pakistan GDP is $200-220 billion @ 3.50%defense budget this $7 to $8 billion
> 
> Indian is growing at over 6% (last decade averaged 8%)
> Pakistan at 3%
> 
> THERE IS NO COMPARISON NOT TODAY and definitely not in the future when this near 10-1 gap will be even bigger based on projected growth of both nations



You're missing the point and putting words into my mouth, I am not comparing the two nation's purchasing powers in the same league, India has always had a higher purchasing power than Pakistan for a long time, and that isn't gonna change any time soon. Having said that, you're making bad assertions, the growth last year was 3.7% yes, but that does not indicate that by 2020, the growth rate will be the same, it just won't. Pakistan's growth during 2004 was 8.96%, ( http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8UKlv9SFt...AACWg/3wpE6ur3wD8/s1600/Pak+GDP+1951-2009.png ) during the same period, India's growth rate was somewhere between 7.5-7.9 ( http://bankexamguide.com/sites/default/files/India GDP growth rate.png ), but look now, Pakistan's growth rate last year was 3.7 and India's was 5%.

These rates in the long term mean nothing, because by 2020 the results could be just like 2004.

I'm not the one making these comparisons, YOU are. I'm simply stating facts, I didn't even bring up Purchasing power between the two nations, YOU did. I didn't compare the two's economies and defense budgets, YOU did.

Sir, all I'm saying is that Pakistan will probably have a stable enough economy BY 2020 to at least consider the 5th gen.




> I AGREE WITH posters that even india with the 10th largest defense budget on the planet FGFA will very EXPENSIVE PRPGRAMME and will REQUIRE india to achieve the very highest growth rates in GDP & MILITARY EXPENDITURE if the programme is to be concluded...
> 
> Article how INDIA has already cut this order to 144 from 250
> 
> Sukhoi/HAL FGFA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> I ASK THE QUESTION CAN PAF afford this TYPE OF INVESTMENT
> 
> FOR ME ONLY A HANDFUL NATIONS CAN REALISTCALLY AFFORD TO MAINTAIN A FIFTH GEN FIGHTER OPTION
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-22.html#ixzz2R2Nk0XQI



You're also misunderstand something vital, you seem to think that Pakistan will buy or even need over a hundred of these 5th gens, that's not true. Just two squadrons (45-50 aircraft) are enough to defensive purposes, no more than that.

India is also investing in the program, which makes the costs for India even larger, while Pakistan is gonna buy an off the shelf product from China, without prior investment.

You also seem to have this extremely flawed concept that the maintenance costs for these air crafts are going to remain consistent, and that is simply not true. The maintenance costs are obviously going to go down, because of the potential proliferation of the plane. the aging of the technology in question and too many other facts to name here.

You're right, only a handful of nations can actually afford to maintain a fleet of 5th gens, but that highly depends on the size of the fleet. If you want an offensive capability, then you need between 150-250 planes, but if you want a small defensive fleet, then only a few squadrons are needed, which automatically lowers the potential costs to the customer anyways.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Hey retard why bring ur shining india in threads not related to it? go live in ur looney land.. idiot.



Don't be rude.


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## EagleEyes

Stay on topic please.

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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> I AGREE WITH posters that even india with the 10th largest defense budget on the planet FGFA will very EXPENSIVE PRPGRAMME and will REQUIRE india to achieve the very highest growth rates in GDP & MILITARY EXPENDITURE if the programme is to be concluded...
> 
> I ASK THE QUESTION CAN PAF afford this TYPE OF INVESTMENT



To answer your question based on past analyses, yes. The PAF can keep a couple of squadrons of the J-31's if they needed to. Here's how it'll work. The comparison with FGFA / PakFa, F-22 or J-20 is pretty silly in my opinion.

Historically, the way PAF works, they don't buy the most expensive toy on the planet. They buy stuff that works for them and provides a decent deterrence. When you talk about 'Fifth Gen'....you have to understand, a plane in the category of F-22 .....has hundreds of millions of sensitive technology in it. Does Pakistan needs all that? Is Pakistan ever going to have to defend or fight a way with two - five nations at a time??? The answer is NO.
So, you can 'dumb down' the platform. Hypothetically, if a stealthy model of F-16 was made and it cost $ 90 mil. I think Pakistan would buy it in a minimal quantity. What they want (and have always done) is to use moderate tech or numbers that do send a message across to India clearly. At the end, the IA has to account for the capability and really understand that it might suffer serious losses to. Thus, resulting in stopping an event from happening.
Two squadrons of dumb down J-31, that may be very stealthy but will have J-10 type of technology may suit Pakistan and can lower the price tag. But the reality is, if these planes can't be seen on the Radar and even with their medium tech, they can invade the Indian Airspace without getting detected.....you can use your imagination to think what it is that they can or will do. THAT's some deterrence and it stops the adventurist nature of others

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## That Guy

WebMaster said:


> Stay on topic please.



Trying, but it's really hard to when I find people bring up subjects that have nothing to do with anything, and then get the facts about those subjects wrong.


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## Kompromat

Bearice said:


> Where does Pakistan get money from to buy all the military hardware ??



This jet wont be purchased until 2020-2022


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## That Guy

Bearice said:


> Where does Pakistan get money from to buy all the military hardware ??



Right now? Soft loans from China help, but @Aeronaut is right, these planes won't be purchased until at least 2020-2022


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## Storm Force

What wil
change in 2022 to 
allow such massive finan eccial improv..ement. country is on its knees financially


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## AirDefence

Aeronaut said:


> This jet wont be purchased until 2020-2022



SO, you think that you have enough money in 2020 to pour in a 5th gen plane, and by the way j-31 takes at least 20 years from now to reach its desired position.



That Guy said:


> Right now? Soft loans from China help, but @Aeronaut is right, these planes won't be purchased until at least 2020-2022



why do you think that china will make you partner in its new gen fighters, I don't think so...
do you have any official link that can prove , this ????

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## rcrmj

mrPERFECT said:


> SO, you think that you have enough money in 2020 to pour in a 5th gen plane, and by the way *j-31 takes at least 20 years from now to reach its desired position.*
> 
> 
> 
> why do you think that china will make you partner in its new gen fighters, I don't think so...
> do you have any official link that can prove , this ????



based on what?


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## AirDefence

rcrmj said:


> based on what?



based on your operational requirement and if china need 300-400 of these 5th gen fighters

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## Kompromat

mrPERFECT said:


> based on your operational requirement and if china need 300-400 of these 5th gen fighters



Maybe because our requirement is to buy no more than 3 squadrons ?

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## That Guy

mrPERFECT said:


> SO, you think that you have enough money in 2020 to pour in a 5th gen plane, and by the way j-31 takes at least 20 years from now to reach its desired position.
> 
> 
> 
> why do you think that china will make you partner in its new gen fighters, I don't think so...
> do you have any official link that can prove , this ????



Oh my god, are you really asking me something that's already been discussed in this thread?

Like I said before, the F-60 version of the J31 is meant for export, Pakistan doesn't need to be a partner, all it needs to do is buy the damn things when it comes into service with the PLAAF.

Proof?

"By installing a large scale model at its booth, the Aviation Industry Corporation of China will officially acknowledge the existence of China's second stealth fighter, dubbed by outsiders as the "J-31," which made its maiden flight on October 31.

"Currently the only fifth generation fighter available for sale is the F-35 by the US. The 'J-31' will offer an alternative for non-traditional allies of the US," Bai Wei, former deputy chief editor of the Aviation World Monthly, told the Global Times, noting that the fighter will bring subtle changes to international relations."

Stealth fighter, attack helicopters to be featured at Airshow China 2012 - Globaltimes.cn

Since Global Times run by the CPC, we can consider this an official recognition of China's ambition to directly challenge the F-35's future export potential.


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## muse

Neither J60 or J31 are likely to be production aircraft, they are instead technology demonstrators and test beds - Pakistan have an excellent platform in the JFT and anyway, Pakistan need basic tech know how, trained scientist and engineers and manufacturing capability, not a handful of fancy aircraft.


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## Jango

muse said:


> Neither J60 or J31 are likely to be production aircraft, they are instead technology demonstrators and test beds - Pakistan have an excellent platform in the JFT and anyway, Pakistan need basic tech know how, trained scientist and engineers and manufacturing capability, not a handful of fancy aircraft.



Why would a test bed/tech demonstrator come later than the actual frontline 5th gen aircraft (J-20)?


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## That Guy

muse said:


> Neither J60 or J31 are likely to be production aircraft, they are instead technology demonstrators and test beds - Pakistan have an excellent platform in the JFT and anyway, Pakistan need basic tech know how, trained scientist and engineers and manufacturing capability, not a handful of fancy aircraft.



Wrong, If it were 2012, I may have said that you have a point, but it's already been confirmed that the PLAAF and especially the PLAN have plans for the J-31. The PLAAF want it to complement the J-20 and the PLAN want it to for their carriers.

The government also is looking to export this plane to other nations, as I've already provided a link in this thread stating as such, just go look for it.


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## araz

muse said:


> Neither J60 or J31 are likely to be production aircraft, they are instead technology demonstrators and test beds - Pakistan have an excellent platform in the JFT and anyway, Pakistan need basic tech know how, trained scientist and engineers and manufacturing capability, not a handful of fancy aircraft.



I dont think this is true. What is sufficient for today may no longer be so in 2020. As technology advances if you dont keep pace you will become irrelevant in the subcontinent arena.So we do need to plan for the next decade NOW and j31 works into PAFs workings perfectly. Someone reported that a PAF team of engineers is already involved in the project. We may not have the industry but we do have men who vo around ghe world lookinv at and conducting research and then coming back to advance the concepts further.The chinese aviation industry is happy to let these people dothetinkering as the fruits of their labour are shared by both the countries.
Araz


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## muse

araz said:


> I dont think this is true. What is sufficient for today may no longer be so in 2020. As technology advances if you dont keep pace you will become irrelevant in the subcontinent arena.So we do need to plan for the next decade NOW and j31 works into PAFs workings perfectly. Someone reported that a PAF team of engineers is already involved in the project. We may not have the industry but we do have men who vo around ghe world lookinv at and conducting research and then coming back to advance the concepts further.The chinese aviation industry is happy to let these people dothetinkering as the fruits of their labour are shared by both the countries.
> Araz



Quite possibly but it seems to me that Chinese realize that Pakistan is not and so long as the officer corp is oriented the way it is, will not ever be a first tier ally of China - I think , at least to my understanding, the Chinese sharing such technology with Pakistan, well, they might as well deliver it to the Pentagon directly -- but of course I may be wrong and I also may be wrong about need scientist, engineers and facilities, such is the life of parasites.


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## araz

Muse
I dont think that firstly Pakistan has ever been irrelevant to or will ever be COMPLETELY irrelevant to China. Secondly the proportions might be different but there is definately symbiosis rather than parasiticism.Thirdly it would be absolutely contradictory to Pakistans interests to take from China and pass on to uncle SAM. You dont bite the hand that feeds you AS long as it continues to do so. What happened with certain US articles had more to do with Pakistani interests than chinese ones. There are other avenues which the Chinese exploit forinfo gathering rather than us.
Araz


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## muse

araz said:


> Muse
> I dont think that firstly Pakistan has ever been irrelevant to or will ever be COMPLETELY irrelevant to China. Secondly the proportions might be different but there is definately symbiosis rather than parasiticism.Thirdly it would be absolutely contradictory to Pakistans interests to take from China and pass on to uncle SAM. You dont bite the hand that feeds you AS long as it continues to do so. What happened with certain US articles had more to do with Pakistani interests than chinese ones. There are other avenues which the Chinese exploit forinfo gathering rather than us.
> Araz



I strongly object to such reasonable and well articulated posts, I'll have you know - and on to bijnis: I was not suggesting that Pakistan are irrelevant, rather that because Pakistan choose to exist in a policy grey area with regard to Islamism and the support infrastructure of terrorism, that China cannot see Pakistan as a true ally - I appreciate the rhetoric of higher than sweeter than and all that, but I also see the level of trade and policy alignment and social interaction -- and I wish we could have better understood the environment we are must be in -- And Yes, it's not an entirely parasitic relationship, however, I'm certain that a Pakistan that can bring a higher level of scientific, engineering and manufacturing capability to the table, is a more valuable Pakistan, from anybody's perspective - not biting the hand that feeds you?? Well, I think the Americans will have a couple of interesting things to say about that, look we are in some pretty desperate straights and desperate people are not people anybody can trust.

I strongly support better and deeper relations with China, especially trade and social and I do wish we behaved as if we understood the value of these. 

As for J31, can you point to or present information that allows to conclude that China have moved past technology demonstrator mode?


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## araz

muse said:


> I strongly object to such reasonable and well articulated posts, I'll have you know - and on to bijnis: I was not suggesting that Pakistan are irrelevant, rather that because Pakistan choose to exist in a policy grey area with regard to Islamism and the support infrastructure of terrorism, that China cannot see Pakistan as a true ally - I appreciate the rhetoric of higher than sweeter than and all that, but I also see the level of trade and policy alignment and social interaction -- and I wish we could have better understood the environment we are must be in -- And Yes, it's not an entirely parasitic relationship, however, I'm certain that a Pakistan that can bring a higher level of scientific, engineering and manufacturing capability to the table, is a more valuable Pakistan, from anybody's perspective - not biting the hand that feeds you?? Well, I think the Americans will have a couple of interesting things to say about that, look we are in some pretty desperate straights and desperate people are not people anybody can trust.
> 
> I strongly support better and deeper relations with China, especially trade and social and I do wish we behaved as if we understood the value of these.
> 
> As for J31, can you point to or present information that allows to conclude that China have moved past technology demonstrator mode?



Muse.
Pakistan maybe a rat infested sewer but it has certain interests for China which I need not elaborate. Secondly you maybe surprised that the chaotic Pakistan may suit a lot of countries possibly including China than a stable country utilizing its growth potential.The dichotomy of its religious and political asperations are best left for another thread so I must refuse the invite.As to the evidence regarding J 31,there are statements of chinese officials suggesting a dssire to export the plane and you dont come out and say this unless you mean it.
Araz


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## Storm Force

SINCE MOST OF YOU HAVE INDICATED THAT THIS PLANE WILL NOT BE AVAIABLE UNTIL 2022.

AND because PAKISTAN IS NOT INVOLVED in its development BUT hoping that the chinease will make it available in a decade or so 

IS THE ENTIRE THREAD NOT VERY SPECUCLATIVE AND FULL OF IFS & BUTS 

There is nothing from the PAF/MILITARY suggesting that this is even in their mindset 

cOULD BE IT BE ITS too far into the HORIZEN


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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> SINCE MOST OF YOU HAVE INDICATED THAT THIS PLANE WILL NOT BE AVAIABLE UNTIL 2022.
> 
> AND because PAKISTAN IS NOT INVOLVED in its development BUT hoping that the chinease will make it available in a decade or so
> 
> IS THE ENTIRE THREAD NOT VERY SPECUCLATIVE AND FULL OF IFS & BUTS
> 
> There is nothing from the PAF/MILITARY suggesting that this is even in their mindset
> 
> cOULD BE IT BE ITS too far into the HORIZEN



Considering that they've just bought a set of twin engine L-15 trainers, there are rumors that Pakistan's air force may be wanting to purchase a twin engine air craft. The only logical one that comes to mind is the so called J-2X rumored to be being jointly developed by Pakistan and China, or the J-31 which we all know that Pakistan will be an early adopter off.


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## Storm Force

THAT GUY 




> The only logical one that comes to mind is the so called J-2X rumored to be being jointly developed by Pakistan and China, or the J-31 which we all know that Pakistan will be an early adopter off.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-23.html#ixzz2SRYnFEGW


 [ big assumption again i think


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## Munir

Not really, I have been known this for a long time. But I do not think I should share with all posters.  We all know Pakistan will jump into new era faster then India.

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## Storm Force

MUNIR 



> We all know Pakistan will jump into new era faster then India.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-24.html#ixzz2SVffvrm8



IF YOU MEAN PAF will get FIFTH gen before india I 100% disagree on the basis that FGFA is a indo russian joint project 

just like your JF17 ie funded by indian $$billions 

eg IAF will getr first PAK FA for flight testing next year see russian pak fa link 

Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA)*5th Generation Multi-Role Stealth Aircraft - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft

see last pararagh.

FINALLY J31 in 5 years behind the PAK FA/FGFA in deveopment as we speak 

in addition the PROJECT IS 100% CHINEASE UN LIKE PAK FA which we all know is a indian financed project. 

*remember YOU ALL ADAMANT RE J10 8 years later since first j10 arrived in PLAAF stil no J10 in PAF *

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## Munir

Storm Force said:


> MUNIR
> 
> 
> 
> IF YOU MEAN PAF will get FIFTH gen before india I 100% disagree on the basis that FGFA is a indo russian joint project
> 
> just like your JF17 ie funded by indian $$billions
> 
> eg IAF will getr first PAK FA for flight testing next year see russian pak fa link
> 
> Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA)*5th Generation Multi-Role Stealth Aircraft - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft
> 
> see last pararagh.
> 
> FINALLY J31 in 5 years behind the PAK FA/FGFA in deveopment as we speak
> 
> in addition the PROJECT IS 100% CHINEASE UN LIKE PAK FA which we all know is a indian financed project.
> 
> *remember YOU ALL ADAMANT RE J10 8 years later since first j10 arrived in PLAAF stil no J10 in PAF *



Very difficult to understand what you want to say... Let me stop your ********. FFGA an India-Russia joint project? You guys cannot produce LCA. Cannot even assemble 4th gen aircraft and you want to be labelled as partner? There is no way India can be seen as part of aviation building. The chopper is just a bought design filled with exported items. Even then we need to see how safe it is... LCA is clearly a typical Indian mismanaged and ill designed project. The trainers which were planned are already replaced by imports... I do not think you can do anything valuable then get a kind of turnkey project. PAint Indian colors and feel the joy.

Even if J31 is fully chinese funded and produced (well I think I will not go into that), if they can have J20 without any help... I bet J31, as a private development, will handle time schedule. A few decades ago they could not even produce Mig21 copies. Now they have multiple programs where India cannot be seen... India has aspirations to be a superpower but in the end it is just like the Marut.

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## TaimiKhan

Munir said:


> Very difficult to understand what you want to say... Let me stop your ********. FFGA an India-Russia joint project? You guys cannot produce LCA. Cannot even assemble 4th gen aircraft and you want to be labelled as partner? There is no way India can be seen as part of aviation building. The chopper is just a bought design filled with exported items. Even then we need to see how safe it is... LCA is clearly a typical Indian mismanaged and ill designed project. The trainers which were planned are already replaced by imports... I do not think you can do anything valuable then get a kind of turnkey project. PAint Indian colors and feel the joy.
> 
> Even if J31 is fully chinese funded and produced (well I think I will not go into that), if they can have J20 without any help... I bet J31, as a private development, will handle time schedule. A few decades ago they could not even produce Mig21 copies. Now they have multiple programs where India cannot be seen... India has aspirations to be a superpower but in the end it is just like the Marut.



 one of the best posts seen in a very very long time

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## Storm Force

I SEE MUNIR YOU IGNORED MY QUESTION 



> We all know Pakistan will jump into new era faster then India.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-24.html#ixzz2SXV6iudd



How will PAF achieve your VERY BOLD CLAIM above 

We are all ears 

TRY NOT TO DEVIATE off the subject with trashing LCA and INDO RUSSIAN FGFA project. 

Support your claim about PAF jumping to new era FASTER than india .. I AM ALL EARS

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## Munir

I will not share any info here... Let me say something else... You exploded nuke... Pak did reply and you were all shocked... Same happened with Babur... And yes, the remark that LCA was 4+++ generation super duper and JF17 was a paper plane... It is not us that make bold claims... A... You are a partner on PakFa, MKI, Brahmos and maybe even with Dassault Rafale... Sure.

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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> THAT GUY
> 
> 
> 
> [ big assumption again i think



In this case everything is an assumption, but I have yet to be proven otherwise. Indian defense analysts even say that probably the first foreign buyer of the plane is going to be Pakistan if it can get it's economy in order, as it would probably be the only Chinese ally that can even afford a squadron of these.



Storm Force said:


> I thought has much you have no proof. Which I knew anyway



No one has proof of anything, all we can do is speculate about based on educated guesses. When the F-22 was rolled out and with the US economy in a recession, everyone speculated that the pentagon would cut the orders to 150-200 planes, and they were right. When the J-10 rolled out, everyone speculated that Pakistan would try and obtain them, and they were right. When the Russians came out with the Su-30, everyone speculated that India would buy them to replace it's aging fleet, and they were right.

Of course, these same people have been known to be wrong too. Before the J-31 was finally shown, the covered up plane, according to them, was the L-15 and not another stealth plane.

Look, all we can do is speculate, nothing more.

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## Chak Bamu

Storm Force said:


> I thought has much you have no proof. Which I knew anyway



Dude, I have been reading Munir's posts since 2006 (PakDef, SinoD, & here). He is right every time because he knows stuff... Beat that!

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Munir said:


> I will not share any info here... Let me say something else... You exploded nuke... Pak did reply and you were all shocked... Same happened with Babur... And yes, the remark that LCA was 4+++ generation super duper and JF17 was a paper plane... It is not us that make bold claims... A... You are a partner on PakFa, MKI, Brahmos and maybe even with Dassault Rafale... Sure.



cool down buddy no need to argue cos they are in euphoria ......

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## Luftwaffe

Munir said:


> Not really, I have been known this for a long time. But I do not think I should share with all posters.  We all know Pakistan will jump into new era faster then India.



O bhai first top up 150 Thunders then talk about jumping into slipstream. No Funds No Projects No Additional Platforms.


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## That Guy

Luftwaffe said:


> O bhai first top up 150 Thunders then talk about jumping into slipstream. No Funds No Projects No Additional Platforms.



This is about the 2020-2022 time frame, by that time Pakistan will have 150-200 JF-17s. Munir is right, Pakistan is more likely to jump on the 5th gens and induct a squadron before India inducts theirs.


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## Storm Force

So according you people you cant prove anything but speculate. And your speculation ignores that.india wil get a pak fa prototype for testing next year. Yes as india finances pak fa fgfs wil in india in 2014. But hey i wil ley u guys speculate your hog wash abt j31 arriving first on your tiny ftaction gdp and air force budget. And i mean very tiny that even the thunders which are so cheap can only with soft loans from china. Please somr reality guys


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## danger007

That Guy said:


> This is about the 2020-2022 time frame, by that time Pakistan will have 150-200 JF-17s. Munir is right, Pakistan is more likely to jump on the 5th gens and induct a squadron before India inducts theirs.



can you tell me at what time period you guys going to induct 5gen jet squadrons?


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## Chak Bamu

Storm Force said:


> So according you people you cant prove anything but speculate. And your speculation ignores that.india wil get a pak fa prototype for testing next year. Yes as india finances pak fa fgfs wil in india in 2014. But hey i wil ley u guys speculate your hog wash abt j31 arriving first on your tiny ftaction gdp and air force budget. And i mean very tiny that even the thunders which are so cheap can only with soft loans from china. Please somr reality guys


 @Storm Force, you do not seem to understand or be willing to make an effort to understand that some people who comment on these boards have higher degree of reputation, greater access to information (sometimes classified), a more suitable back ground to discuss relevant topics. Either you are being stubborn, or you want to goad Munir to reveal what he does not wish to share. In any case, you can say what you want, you are not going to get what you want. Some things are best left to Baba time to show.


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## That Guy

danger007 said:


> can you tell me at what time period you guys going to induct 5gen jet squadrons?



Can't really say, but the general consensus is that around the 2020-22 timeframe, we'll at least think about getting 5th gens, and by 2025 we'll probably induct about 2 squadrons, this is around the same time that India is expected to start inducting the FGFA.

Now I have to stress that this is all highly speculative, the J-31 and the FGFA both could be heavily delayed and if that happens, the induction times could very well be extended to 2025-2030 for both nations.


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## neehar

That Guy said:


> Can't really say, but the general consensus is that around the 2020-22 timeframe, we'll at least think about getting 5th gens, and by 2025 we'll probably induct about 2 squadrons, this is around the same time that India is expected to start inducting the FGFA.
> 
> Now I have to stress that this is all highly speculative, the J-31 and the FGFA both could be heavily delayed and if that happens, the induction times could very well be extended to 2025-2030 for both nations.



are you sure about that??any official news regarding the induction??


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## danger007

That Guy said:


> Can't really say, but the general consensus is that around the 2020-22 timeframe, we'll at least think about getting 5th gens, and by 2025 we'll probably induct about 2 squadrons, this is around the same time that India is expected to start inducting the FGFA.
> 
> Now I have to stress that this is all highly speculative, the J-31 and the FGFA both could be heavily delayed and if that happens, the induction times could very well be extended to 2025-2030 for both nations.



leave India aside... i am asking about PAF.... so you guys are thinking.... china is willing to provide 5 gen jet... before they fulfill the requirement of their own?? and you guys are assuming, they will work and spend money to provide 2 sq for PAF?


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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> leave India aside... i am asking about PAF.... so you guys are thinking.... china is willing to provide 5 gen jet... before they fulfill the requirement of their own?? and you guys are assuming, *they will work and spend money to provide 2 sq for PAF?*




They have, are and will.
It's the PAF which has the problem with an ego perception.
If today, Pakistan asks China that we want three sq's of J-10B's delivered in two years but we dont have the money.. you know what the Chinese are going to say??

They'll say "sure"... we'll finance you.. here is another soft loan(add to the loans taken out for the SAAB, the JF-17s.. the ZDK.. etc)
please pay the interest on these in time.

The PAF knew about the J-20 and J-31 early on.. they practically have a small community in chengdu and elsewhere.
The question is not of assurance of purchase or timeline... it's of money and and a little honor.

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## danger007

Oscar said:


> They have, are and will.
> It's the PAF which has the problem with an ego perception.
> If today, Pakistan asks China that we want three sq's of J-10B's delivered in two years but we dont have the money.. you know what the Chinese are going to say??
> 
> They'll say "sure"... we'll finance you.. here is another soft loan(add to the loans taken out for the SAAB, the JF-17s.. the ZDK.. etc)
> please pay the interest on these in time.
> 
> The PAF knew about the J-20 and J-31 early on.. they practically have a small community in chengdu and elsewhere.
> The question is not of assurance of purchase or timeline... it's of money and and a little honor.



hmmm so as the above guy mentioned... can PAF Induct a squadron before IAF? will they provide squadron before they fulfilling the requirements of PLAAF?


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## Munir

Storm Force said:


> So according you people you cant prove anything but speculate. And your speculation ignores that.india wil get a pak fa prototype for testing next year. Yes as india finances pak fa fgfs wil in india in 2014. But hey i wil ley u guys speculate your hog wash abt j31 arriving first on your tiny ftaction gdp and air force budget. And i mean very tiny that even the thunders which are so cheap can only with soft loans from china. Please somr reality guys



If Russia gets its PAKFA operational after 2016 then how can Indians do it in 2014? I mean, reality check. We are talking about a nation that needed designing, building, massive assistance and ended up with LCA that is a learning project... Dassault does not trust HAL building capacity, BAE was getting blamed for problems with Hawk assembly, Russians were blamed for Mig21 incidents end the list goes on and on...

Let me simple. JF17, F16 block52/mlu, J31.... That is what you are going to see. You will see more high tech weapons like Pakistan showed with Ra'ad, 400AKG, C803, SD10B, tactical nukes and a lot more. I am looking forward how India will evolve... Running from one supplier to another. And what we can achieve with soft loans you cannot achieve with big bucks. Not even if you are the only help desk in the world.

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## neehar

Oscar said:


> They have, are and will.
> It's the PAF which has the problem with an ego perception.
> If today, Pakistan asks China that we want three sq's of J-10B's delivered in two years but we dont have the money.. you know what the Chinese are going to say??
> 
> They'll say "sure"... we'll finance you.. here is another soft loan(add to the loans taken out for the SAAB, the JF-17s.. the ZDK.. etc)
> please pay the interest on these in time.
> 
> The PAF knew about the J-20 and J-31 early on.. they practically have a small community in chengdu and elsewhere.
> The question is not of assurance of purchase or timeline... it's of money and and a little honor.



money might be an issue but i think whats more important is perhaps they've felt that its not necessary?? of course according to ur current threat perceptions buying and maintaining such machines cost huge..so i think its more related to cost/benefit ratio rather than just cost..what do u say abt it??

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## danger007

Munir said:


> If Russia gets its PAKFA operational after 2016 then how can Indians do it in 2014? I mean, reality check. We are talking about a nation that needed designing, building, massive assistance and ended up with LCA that is a learning project... Dassault does not trust HAL building capacity, BAE was getting blamed for problems with Hawk assembly, Russians were blamed for Mig21 incidents end the list goes on and on...
> 
> Let me simple. JF17, F16 block52/mlu, J31.... That is what you are going to see. You will see more high tech weapons like Pakistan showed with Ra'ad, 400AKG, C803, SD10B, tactical nukes and a lot more. I am looking forward how India will evolve... Running from one supplier to another. And what we can achieve with soft loans you cannot achieve with big bucks. Not even if you are the only help desk in the world.




he is referring proto type...


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## Munir

neehar said:


> money might be an issue but i think whats more important is perhaps they've felt that its not necessary?? of course according to ur current threat perceptions buying and maintaining such machines cost huge..so i think its more related to cost/benefit ratio rather than just cost..what do u say abt it??



Very neat analysis. India is not having MRCA soon... Why investing to get J10B if there is no need to defend (cause I do not see them acting as an aggressor). Surely MKI numbers are intimidating (and who doesn't love Flankers...) but it will not change much in reaction. The moment Rafale comes the best solution would be FC20. The moment PAKFA comes the best solution is J31. No Rafale... No FC20.

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## danger007

Munir said:


> Very neat analysis. India is not having MRCA soon... Why investing to get J10B if there is no need to defend (cause I do not see them acting as an aggressor). Surely MKI numbers are intimidating (and who doesn't love Flankers...) but it will not change much in reaction. The moment Rafale comes the best solution would be FC20. The moment PAKFA comes the best solution is J31. No Rafale... No FC20.




that quite fan boy statement....


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## Munir

You cannot say anything more then that. Go back to BRF. Here you need to do more then shouting empty one-liners.

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## MilSpec

Munir said:


> If Russia gets its PAKFA operational after 2016 then how can Indians do it in 2014? I mean, reality check. We are talking about a nation that needed designing, building, massive assistance and ended up with LCA that is a learning project... Dassault does not trust HAL building capacity, BAE was getting blamed for problems with Hawk assembly, Russians were blamed for Mig21 incidents end the list goes on and on...
> 
> Let me simple. JF17, F16 block52/mlu, J31.... That is what you are going to see. You will see more high tech weapons like Pakistan showed with Ra'ad, 400AKG, C803, SD10B, tactical nukes and a lot more. I am looking forward how India will evolve... Running from one supplier to another. And what we can achieve with soft loans you cannot achieve with big bucks. Not even if you are the only help desk in the world.



Very Amusing....


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## That Guy

danger007 said:


> leave India aside... i am asking about PAF.... so you guys are thinking.... china is willing to provide 5 gen jet... before they fulfill the requirement of their own?? and you guys are assuming, they will work and spend money to provide 2 sq for PAF?



Considering that the J-31 is supposed to be an export fighter (confirmed by Chinese officials), with only the PLA-N interested in it for domestic naval use (confirmed by Chinese officials), the domestic orders aren't exactly expected to be large, perhaps 150-300 within a 10-15 year time frame. This gives the Chinese plenty of time to induct the planes into their own service and that of fulfilling foreign orders.

You're also assuming that we think China is just going to hand these jets over to Pakistan and pay for them itself. That is completely false, by 2020, Pakistan's economy will hopefully be recovered, and having a large population, it's GDP and PPP will only get better with time. This would give Pakistan's defense budget a big boost to spend more money on these fighters.

India is quite involved in this, as Pakistan doesn't do anything militarily without first looking at what India is doing. If India delays it's induction of the FGFA, then Pakistan may change it's plans to either quicken the pace of induction, or slow down to concentrate on the economy.

One question for you, why are you writing "...", it's really annoying and makes it harder to put together your sentences.


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## Munir

Navy LCA hasn't flown since july 2012... That is almost a year. We can delay J31...

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## Storm Force

No comparison between pak fa which is joint fifth gen project with worldwide coverage of testing and induction plans for both stakeholders ie Russia and India.
In contrast j31 is s top secret chinese fighter that has zero Pakistani involement. No financial input or tech input. So all this speculation is fanboy we hope china builds this then hopefully give us donate two squdrons. This stuff we know more than you is fantasy land. This is a nation so limited in resources and options that virtually every thing is on credit.


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## Munir

Storm Force said:


> No comparison between pak fa which is joint fifth gen project with worldwide coverage of testing and induction plans for both stakeholders ie Russia and India.
> In contrast j31 is s top secret chinese fighter that has zero Pakistani involement. No financial input or tech input. So all this speculation is fanboy we hope china builds this then hopefully give us donate two squdrons. This stuff we know more than you is fantasy land. This is a nation so limited in resources and options that virtually every thing is on credit.



What is joint in PAKFA?

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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> No comparison between pak fa which is joint fifth gen project with worldwide coverage of testing and induction plans for both stakeholders ie Russia and India.
> In contrast j31 is s top secret chinese fighter that has zero Pakistani involement. No financial input or tech input. So all this speculation is fanboy we hope china builds this then hopefully give us donate two squdrons. This stuff we know more than you is fantasy land. This is a nation so limited in resources and options that virtually every thing is on credit.



Limited resources? Pakistan has quite rich in resources, the problem is that they've never been exploited properly. Once we get good governance and start exploiting those resources, Pakistan is set to become quite a large economy.

As for everything else you've said, you and I have already had this conversation before. Please don't bring up things that you already know have already been answered and don't be so rude as to say that this is merely fanboy behavior, because we can say the same for you.


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## That Guy

neehar said:


> are you sure about that??any official news regarding the induction??



Nothing official, because at this point everything is up for debate, but the general consensus among analysts and experts is that this is most likely going to happen. China usually uses Pakistan to showcase it's military hardware to the international world, and if the J-31 is indeed to be for international purposes as Chinese officials have hinted at, then you can guarantee that China is once again going to use Pakistan to showcase it's products.

Now you may be wondering "Why Pakistan? Why not the Chinese air force itself?" Because in terms of air warfare, Pakistan is extremely experienced, where are China is not. The general belief is that international markets would rather trust an experienced air force rather than an inexperienced one. Not to mention that the Chinese can say "hey, look at our products! Other nations are using it too, which means that you should probably buy them, since other nations would only buy them because they're good!", and whether that's true or not is up for debate, but it's a good marketing strategy.

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## Storm Force

In answer to what is joint on pak fa try 5.billion dollars of Indian money. On development cost. Without Indian money Russian arms industry is fukrd

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## Munir

Naaaa, Russia is not in the same state as when you bought MKI. You must check their economy first before telling that it is your ho.

Russians milk you. Look at outdated aircraftcarrier deal and many more... You pay for it and you have no clue how much... Good, we rather have you in that position while we get free parts from USA, China and many more.

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## Sinnerman108

Storm Force said:


> In answer to what is joint on pak fa try 5.billion dollars of Indian money. On development cost. Without Indian money Russian arms industry is fukrd



Are you suggesting that russian equipment is not fit for sale all over the globe but India ?

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## Storm Force

Just like u people claim jf17 is s pak fighter and u have huge threads open on export potential of thunder the Indians have the same rights on pak fa. Obviously a far more advanced project costing twenty x as much to develope. Most important India has open access to add Israeli French even USA technology into their version of pak fa. 

This is why munirs claims of pak getting new gen fighters before india are so fantasy remarks . With no project involvement. No cash input no ability to add western tech wat would China gain letting u guys get this fighter. My guess is no j31 for export for five to ten years after plaaf induction.or 2030 timeframe


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## INDIAISM

Munir said:


> Naaaa, Russia is not in the same state as when you bought MKI. You must check their economy first before telling that it is your ho.
> *
> Russians milk you. Look at outdated aircraftcarrier deal and many more... You pay for it and you have no clue how much... Good, we rather have you in that position while we get free parts from USA, China *and many more.


And we will like to pay the price that we are paying for Russian equipment then the way you get free parts from US of A and to some extent from China{Soft Loan} because in both the cases your country men are putting your National Honour on Stake...


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## bigzgvr4

its is not look at afghan russian war they lost because of stingers and f-16s, look at iraq iran war Iraq could not counter american tech that iran had after the shah was out of power, Look at Syria getting ran through like a **** star becuase its russian equipment is garbage israel and FsA are taking over where is the syrian russian Made Sams when Israel bombs millitary targets,

RUSSIAN Equipment is Garbage Period


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## Munir

INDIAISM said:


> And we will like to pay the price that we are paying for Russian equipment then the way you get free parts from US of A and to some extent from China{Soft Loan} because in both the cases your country men are putting your National Honour on Stake...



At least we are not notoriously raping tourists or little children... Incredible India. 

Latest Pentagon report talks about 2018 as J20-J31 entering operational status...

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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> hmmm so as the above guy mentioned... can PAF Induct a squadron before IAF? will they provide squadron before they fulfilling the requirements of PLAAF?



Depends on the status of the fighter.




neehar said:


> money might be an issue but i think whats more important is perhaps they've felt that its not necessary?? of course according to ur current threat perceptions buying and maintaining such machines cost huge..so i think its more related to cost/benefit ratio rather than just cost..what do u say abt it??



It's always about cost/benefits. opponents of the JF-17 too dont take that factor into account.

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## Storm Force

Pentagon reports 2018 are referring to plaaf induction not pakistan who are not in project


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## FarazUSA

bigzgvr4 said:


> its is not look at afghan russian war they lost because of stingers and f-16s, look at iraq iran war Iraq could not counter american tech that iran had after the shah was out of power, Look at Syria getting ran through like a **** star becuase its russian equipment is garbage israel and FsA are taking over where is the syrian russian Made Sams when Israel bombs millitary targets,
> 
> RUSSIAN Equipment is Garbage Period



Don't give out blanket statements like these. Our JF-17 also uses Russian engines.


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## criminally bad

Munir said:


> What is joint in PAKFA?



india and russia. india select own des. name* fgfa*.


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## Chak Bamu

Storm Force said:


> My guess is no j31 for export for five to ten years after plaaf induction.or 2030 timeframe



What does a user name on an internet forum mean? Nothing if one is using a random string of letters. But when one uses own name, it matters.

Making predictions like these is really stupid. What if you are wrong? Would it matter even? Storm Force is just a random name. Not even a dime a dozen... So go on making predictions. We shall see in time.


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## Munir

criminally bad said:


> india and russia. india select own des. name* fgfa*.



There is as much India in it was in Brahmos. Ooops. Sorry. Brahmos is degraded and the Russians are not willing to accept it. Would Russia Give India high tech Pakfa? 

Let us be open and honest. Russia uses India as cashcow. There is nothing else. Different status when it comes to Pakistan. That gets the product and cash...

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## Donatello

Munir said:


> There is as much India in it was in Brahmos. Ooops. Sorry. Brahmos is degraded and the Russians are not willing to accept it. Would Russia Give India high tech Pakfa?
> 
> Let us be open and honest. Russia uses India as cashcow. There is nothing else. Different status when it comes to Pakistan. That gets the product and cash...



Munir,

But Russians don't sell us offensive weapons.......


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## Abingdonboy

Munir said:


> There is as much India in it was in Brahmos. Ooops. Sorry. Brahmos is degraded and the Russians are not willing to accept it. Would Russia Give India high tech Pakfa?
> 
> Let us be open and honest. Russia uses India as cashcow. There is nothing else. Different status when it comes to Pakistan. That gets the product and cash...


Utter nonsense- you think the Indians would blow $30 BILLION USD for some downgraded export version of the PAK-FA? Did the IAF accept this with the SU-30? Or did the IAF end up operating the most advanced SU-30 variant in service (MKI)? 


As with the SU-30MKI the IAF will actually end up with a platform more advanced than the standard Russian PAK-FA/T-50 version in the form of the FGFA which is a "MKIised" version of the PAK-FA/T-50 if you will. 

The point that Russia sells downgraded equipment to India and then doesn't induct them itself is utterly moot- IN invests in the Mig-29K:

Russia Signs Contract for Navy MiG-29K Fighter | Defense | RIA Novosti


India shows interest in Mig-35:

Mikoyan expecting Russian MiG-35 order soon



India develops the SU-30MKI package:


Irkut Delivers First Su-30SM Fighters to Russian Air Force | Defense | RIA Novosti


And btw the SM is pretty much an MKI with some Israeli equipment omitted:

Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia



I could go on.

You've got nothing other than your hopes and dreams to base your ramblings on so, unless you have anything other than anecdotal evidence to back your comments up, how about you keep them to yourself?

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## Abingdonboy

INDIAISM said:


> Sir here we are not talking about 2013-2014...Here we are talking about 2020-25 by then Indian defence budget will be around 80 to 100 Billion Dollars which is more then enough for the procurment of 5th Gen Fighter Jet....



In 2020 the Indian defence budget will easily be in excess of $150 BN annually any by 2025 it will be $170-190 BN easily.


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## INDIAISM

Munir said:


> There is as much India in it was in Brahmos. Ooops.* Sorry. Brahmos is degraded and the Russians are not willing to accept it. Would Russia Give India high tech Pakfa?
> *
> Let us be open and honest. Russia uses India as cashcow. There is nothing else.* Different status when it comes to Pakistan. That gets the product and cash..*.


That's what i was saying about Jf17 that Jf17 is degraded and that's the reason why PLAAF is not willing to accept JF17...

And as faar as your other statement is concern then you need to understand the difference between *Buisness and Charity*...


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## Genesis

Abingdonboy said:


> In 2020 the Indian defence budget will easily be in excess of $150 BN annually any by 2025 it will be $170-190 BN easily.



So in 7 years it increased by about 100 billion and in 5 years it increases by 20 billion?

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## Munir

Wikipedia as evidence... I rest my case.

You can let the Israeli add Israeli stuff in it but that does not make it Indian MKI. I mean, what does India add?

Bangalore, Feb. 8: The Russian bear raged here today.

Viktor Komardin, the head of the Russian delegation to India&#8217;s military airshow Aero India, alleged that Delhi has bought aircraft, submarines and weapons from western countries at inflated prices &#8220;without military logic&#8221;.

Komardin is also the deputy chief of the Russian state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport.

He questioned the financial logic of the Indian government to procure weapons systems from countries that were not as longstanding partners as Russia despite getting no transfer of technology. &#8220;Ask your minister of finance. May be he has so much money to spare and India has no social problems,&#8221; he responded, barely able to conceal the sarcasm.

Komardin called a group of journalists to a small room in the Russian pavilion here and said his ire was directed against the Indian media that was not accurately reflecting Russia&#8217;s &#8220;rootedness&#8221; in the Indian armed forces. But he said the decisions to buy the Boeing-made C-17 Globemaster and Lockheed Martin-made C-130J Hercules (both US firms) transport aircraft were big mistakes because they were not suited to Indian military needs.

Such decisions are made by the government of India and not by the Indian media.

&#8220;It is not fair. Arms sales in military technology projects are now all politics. Billions of dollars are paid for procurements without transfer of technology. It is improper, it is unfair,&#8221; Komardin said. &#8220;I accept politics but fair should be fair. Russia is a strategic partner of India. We want to be dealt with as partners,&#8221; he added.

The angry remarks came even as a team of the Russian Knights, an aerobatic team from Moscow, landed here this afternoon after a three-day delay that a member of his delegation confirmed was caused &#8220;by delay in internal security clearance&#8221;. The issue was resolved only after Russian ambassador Alexander M. Kadakin requested national security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon to intervene.

A spokesperson for the Russian Knights team said after landing in Bangalore: &#8220;We were held up in Delhi for legal issues raised by the government of India and we could come here only because of diplomatic intervention.&#8221; The Knights had a similar problem in the UK in December and that was put down to incomplete paperwork by the Russians.

Komardin said India was also buying weapons and equipment from companies and countries that were also selling to Pakistan. The French, he said, had sold Agusta submarines to Pakistan and were selling Scorpene submarines to India. Lockheed Martin had sold Hercules aircraft to both Pakistan and India. Boeing, too, was selling to both Pakistan and India.

&#8220;But we do not do it, India does not want us to do it and we are a friend as a friend can be. We do not turn our backs to India.&#8221;

Komardin put out figures that are not officially borne out. He alleged India had bought 10 C-17 Globemaster aircraft for $10 billion though the long-haul strategic airlifters did not configure into the Indian military mindset.

&#8220;These aircraft are used for trans-Atlantic and transpacific requirements by the US military. What are they? Just big cargo planes. And you overlook the Il-76 that you (India) have been using for 20 years!&#8221; he said.

The C-17 contracted by India in 2009 through the Pentagon&#8217;s foreign military sales programme cost half the figure of $10 billion that Komardin quoted. The aircraft are bigger than the IL-76 procured from Russia. A C-17 can carry 75 tonnes and an IL-76, loads of 50 tonnes each.

Even as Komardin was railing against the shift in Indian military procurement policies, Boeing was taking another team of Indian journalists in a C-17 on a sortie over Bangalore&#8217;s skies to give them a feel of the aircraft.

The C-130J Hercules that the Indian Air Force has procured, he said, cannot accommodate the Russian-supplied Smerch multi-barelled rocket launchers. This would tell on the Indian armed forces&#8217; operational abilities.


An Mi-26 salvages a Chinook helicopter. File picture
Komardin said Russia also thinks the choice of the Boeing-made Chinook helicopter for the IAF&#8217;s heavy-lift needs was wrong.

&#8220;What is the Chinook compared to (the Russian) Mi-26 (that was also in the competition)? It is a baby. The Mi-26 can lift the Chinook by the neck!&#8221; he said.

This is true. About three years ago, a Chinook helicopter of the US forces that went down in Afghanistan was salvaged by a chartered MI-26. Photographs of the MI-26 with the Chinook underslung have since been widely publicised.

The IAF has selected the Chinook for negotiations but the twin-rotor helicopter has not yet been contracted.

Komardin said Russia has $7-billion worth of arms transfer projects with India going currently, compared to the contracts that were signed with other countries. &#8220;I am pained that despite this, I find the Russian role in building India&#8217;s defence industry diminished,&#8221; he said.

Next year, it would be the 50th anniversary since India first signed a licensed production agreement with (the former) Soviet Russia for the MiG 21 FL fighter aircraft. Russia now has more than two dozen licence production agreements going with India. Among the projects are land systems involving tanks and armoured personnel carriers for the army, aircraft such as the Sukhoi 30 MKi for the air force and the Gorshkov carrier for the navy.

Asked about erratic supplies of spares for Russian-origin equipment and delays in deliveries, Komardin fumed that was also the case with other suppliers. He said the French had delayed the delivery of Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy by three years, as the delivery of the Goshkov carrier has been delayed. &#8220;But there is talk in India of imposing penalties on us and not on the French,&#8221; he rued.

He said the equipment that India was procuring from Russia&#8217;s competitors would not stand the test in harsh conditions in the subcontinent.

&#8220;Russian armament is robust for warfighting, not effete. If we will sell you a chair, we will sell you a chair that lasts, not decorate it with foam and leather that will not last,&#8221; he said.

Komardin said that unlike its competitors, Russia did not want to publicise its defence deals with India &#8220;because we do not believe in disclosing Indian national secrets&#8221;.

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## Storm Force

Munir 

you are TAKING THIS TOPIC way off ITS agenda 

THE AGENDA IS TO DISCUSS THE CHINEASE J31 fifth generation FIGHTER and the HOPES & PROSPECTS of PAKISTAN being able to acquire this PLATFORM...in the DISTANT FUTURE 

you have zero knowledge of india,s MASSIVE MILITARY DEALS with RUSSIA israel & usa & france. SO WHY BRING THEM INTO THIS AGENDA.

we are CHALLENGING YOU to make good you BRASH CLAIMS about J31 

stick to the TOPIC dont concern yourself ABOUT su30mki FGFFA rafale & PHALCON awacs etc. 

STICK TO PAF and how and when they are getting this J31


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## sancho

Munir said:


> There is as much India in it was in Brahmos. Ooops. Sorry. Brahmos is degraded and the Russians are not willing to accept it. Would Russia Give India high tech Pakfa?
> 
> Let us be open and honest. Russia uses India as cashcow. There is nothing else. Different status when it comes to Pakistan. That gets the product and cash...



Funny how you try so hard to convince yourself from your nonsense. Brahmos degraded? It is based on a Russian missile and got modernised navigations systems and CPUs. The new version under development (Brahmos light and the hypersonic version) are jointly developed by the Brahmos Aero.
Pak Fa that the Russians want by 2015 / 16 is also less capable than the FGFA version we want (or their final version), since it will have the older engines TVC a, it will include less composites and coatings, different avionics, weapons and most likely a different cockpit as well. 
We get our own version, jointly developed (unlike MKI) according to our needs and benefit from Russias high techs wrt radar and engine developments, while owning half of the FGFA rights too.
The latter is similar to the deal of Pakistan and China with JF 17, just that China don't want it, since they prefer the J10 with better design, materials, radar, avionics...

So let us be open and honest..., while we get Russians NG techs (that Russia of course procures too), in our own fighter version, with full freedom to customize and operate it according to our needs, you can be happy when you get RD93 today and possibly AL 31s (since Chinces counterparts are still not on par) and that more than a decade later than and still in a less capable version than we use and you really believe that there is no difference in the relation between Russia and India, not only compared to Pakistan, but to any other country???  The ammount delusion is simply hilarious!

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## S-DUCT

Munir said:


> There is as much India in it was in Brahmos. Ooops. Sorry. Brahmos is degraded and the Russians are not willing to accept it. Would Russia Give India high tech Pakfa?
> 
> Let us be open and honest. Russia uses India as cashcow. There is nothing else. Different status when it comes to Pakistan. That gets the product and cash...


Brahmos is made for indian requiements not for russian needs, besides it completes requirement of IAF,IN and IA.India's contribution to brahmos is nil,but it helped us to gain expereince in building cruise missile.India's contribution to Hypersonic brahmos will be in scamjet engines(taking help of HSTDV program).See this JV has allowed us to march in hypersonic frontiers.









PLAAF did'nt induct JF-17,so does that means it's degraded.?

We'll get next generation tech form FGFA program that'll come into picture in AMCA program.It'll also make our industry capable of building 5th gen. fighter.

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## Munir

INDIAISM said:


> That's what i was saying about Jf17 that Jf17 is degraded and that's the reason why PLAAF is not willing to accept JF17...
> 
> And as faar as your other statement is concern then you need to understand the difference between *Buisness and Charity*...



PLA is busy in changing massive force from F6, F7 and A5 into Flankers and J10's... They need range and load. We do need no range cause you are bordering us. Neither do you need huge ordnance when fighting a2a. What would you do? Advise them to go for other priorities? Business or Charity? I call you plain stupid.

Brahmos India... Sure... You guys cannot produce a purza. You cannot assemble second generation fighterjets. You guys cannot even build a basic trainer... Yet you are telling us you make a supersonic weapon... Please start making a reliable bullet.

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## INDIAISM

Munir said:


> *PLA is busy in changing massive force from F6, F7 and A5 into Flankers and J10's... They need range* and load. We do need no range cause you are bordering us. Neither do you need huge ordnance when fighting a2a. What would you do? Advise them to go for other priorities?* Business or Charity? I call you plain stupid.
> *
> 
> *
> Brahmos India... Sure... You guys cannot produce a purza. You cannot assemble second generation fighterjets. You guys cannot even build a basic trainer*... Yet you are telling us you make a supersonic weapon... *Please start making a reliable bullet.*


*
A} *That is the same reason why Russia is not procuring Brahmos as Brahmos range is ristricted to 300 Km...Reason MTCR Guideline
*
B}*Ya it will look stupid to you as you don't have any answer for that...
*
C}* Forget about 2nd Gen Jet we are already producing Su 30Mki which is 4th Gen Jet...Not to forget Upgradation of Mig29 and Miraage 2000 will happen in INDIA not in any third country like in the case of PAF s F-16....
*
D}* Ya we can't make trainers like PAC do....
*Mushak a copy of Saab Safari
K-8 copy of Hungdu JL-8
*So you should be the last person to talk about producing of Purza....
*
E}* Forget about bullets we are already Manufacturing Helicopters,Akash SaM,Destroyers,Frigate,Convertte,BMD,Nuke Submarine,Satellites,Aircraft carrier etc...


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## sancho

S-DUCT said:


> PLAAF did'nt induct JF-17,so does that means it's degraded.?



It's not degraded, but developed according to it's aims, mainly as an export fighter with Pakistan as the prime partner in the development and mainly according to Pakistans requirements. However, that doesn't mean that these would be the same as Chinas requirements and for them the J10/J11 mix with stealth fighters on top and no budget issues, JF17 is simply not needed, since it doesn't add any operational advantage to them.

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## Zabaniyah

Munir said:


> There is as much India in it was in Brahmos. Ooops. Sorry. Brahmos is degraded and the Russians are not willing to accept it. Would Russia Give India high tech Pakfa?
> 
> Let us be open and honest. Russia uses India as cashcow. There is nothing else. Different status when it comes to Pakistan. That gets the product and cash...



How do you know that the Brahmos India has is downgraded? I've never heard of a downgraded cruise missile (minus the maximum range of 300 km of-course). 

They have access to the best technology the Russians have to provide. 

In fact, if you want an Su-35, and pay good, they'll give you all the neat technological features on the thing. No downgrades. 

Don't know about the FGFA though. Though related, the PAK-FA and FGFA are two different programs. 

This is no longer the Soviet days where people get "monkey models". 



Abingdonboy said:


> The point that Russia sells downgraded equipment to India and then doesn't induct them itself is utterly moot- IN invests in the Mig-29K:
> 
> Russia Signs Contract for Navy MiG-29K Fighter | Defense | RIA Novosti



The MiG-29K's that India received, and the ones that Russia are going to use are of the same configuration. Though, I heard that the Russian ones would have AESA radar. I think India can fit them in the future for their's. 



> India shows interest in Mig-35:
> Mikoyan expecting Russian MiG-35 order soon



The link doesn't say anything about India being interested in MiG-35's. What could possibly be the rational if it is so otherwise? Rafale not good enough!? Good God...



INDIAISM said:


> That's what i was saying about Jf17 that Jf17 is degraded and that's the reason why PLAAF is not willing to accept JF17...



That's inconclusive for now. Though I won't be surprised if PLAAF don't induct them in large numbers. They already have the J-10. 



Munir said:


> Wikipedia as evidence... I rest my case.



They say only trolls quote from Wikipedia.

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## Munir

Loki said:


> How do you know that the Brahmos India has is downgraded? I've never heard of a downgraded cruise missile (minus the maximum range of 300 km of-course).
> 
> They have access to the best technology the Russians have to provide.
> 
> In fact, if you want an Su-35, and pay good, they'll give you all the neat technological features on the thing. No downgrades.
> 
> Don't know about the FGFA though. Though related, the PAK-FA and FGFA are two different programs.
> 
> This is no longer the Soviet days where people get "monkey models".
> 
> 
> 
> The MiG-29K's that India received, and the ones that Russia are going to use are of the same configuration. Though, I heard that the Russian ones would have AESA radar. I think India can fit them in the future for their's.
> 
> 
> 
> The link doesn't say anything about India being interested in MiG-35's. What could possibly be the rational if it is so otherwise? Rafale not good enough!? Good God...
> 
> 
> 
> That's inconclusive for now. Though I won't be surprised if PLAAF don't induct them in large numbers. They already have the J-10.
> 
> 
> 
> They say only trolls quote from Wikipedia.



They say only idiots and stupids keep repeating... And you ask more questions then you provide anything.

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## UKBengali

Storm Force said:


> Just like u people claim jf17 is s pak fighter and u have huge threads open on export potential of thunder the Indians have the same rights on pak fa. Obviously a far more advanced project costing twenty x as much to develope. Most important India has open access to add Israeli French even USA technology into their version of pak fa.
> 
> *This is why munirs claims of pak getting new gen fighters before india are so fantasy remarks .* With no project involvement. No cash input no ability to add western tech wat would China gain letting u guys get this fighter. My guess is no j31 for export for five to ten years after plaaf induction.or 2030 timeframe




No they are not.

2020 for delivery of J-31 to Pakistan, China's closes ally, is not optimistic at all.

There are two reasons why Pakistan will get it at that date:

1. J-20 is the PLAAF only fighter that will have the most cutting edge technology. China would hesitate to even export to Pakistan, lest powers like USA or India gets their hands on the tech one way or another. Think of J-20 being F-22 and J-31 being the F-35.

2. J-31 is being designed specifically for export.


China will give first priority to Pakistan and the J-31 should be ready for service around 2018 or so, so 2020 is very real possibility for Pakistani delivery

And what is this Indian obsession to adding Western technology to a Chinese aircraft in the year 2020 by which time Chinese avionics technology would be cutting edge!!!!!

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## Luffy 500

What are the chances of china making a STOVL fighter out of J31? Is it possible for china to make something like F35 B in J31?


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## Zabaniyah

Luffy 500 said:


> What are the chances of china making a STOVL fighter out of J31? Is it possible for china to make something like F35 B in J31?



According to the Chinese members here, it very unlikely for China to make one.

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## Genesis

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that PAC and CAC might rather going to produce a 5th Generation together and if needed then PAC might going to license produce about 70+ J-31 at home. INSHA ALLAH.



if current trends are continued which I think it will. J-31s will be sold to Pakistan in batches, first as ready made, then licensed to produce in Pakistan. 

70+ will come eventually, but it's interesting to know Russia is only ordering 60 PAK FA to start.

And J-31 will be sold in pakistan no question, if China's biggest buyer don't buy it who well?

Pakistan is amongst the better countries China currently sell to, so if Pakistan can't afford it who can?

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## Chak Bamu

J-31 is being tested with RD93 for now. But I seriously think that China would use WS-13. One reason is that China would rather have a 100% made in China aircraft for export. Second reason is that J-31 is a two engine plane and therefore the engine requirements are not as stringent as for a single-engine war plane. Also I think that until J-31 matures, we might see JF-17 with WS-13.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

OOPS!! Wrong thread. Mods pls move post to J-31 thread.


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## Munir

UKBengali said:


> No they are not.
> 
> 2020 for delivery of J-31 to Pakistan, China's closes ally, is not optimistic at all.
> 
> There are two reasons why Pakistan will get it at that date:
> 
> 1. J-20 is the PLAAF only fighter that will have the most cutting edge technology. China would hesitate to even export to Pakistan, lest powers like USA or India gets their hands on the tech one way or another. Think of J-20 being F-22 and J-31 being the F-35.
> 
> 2. J-31 is being designed specifically for export.
> 
> 
> China will give first priority to Pakistan and the J-31 should be ready for service around 2018 or so, so 2020 is very real possibility for Pakistani delivery
> 
> And what is this Indian obsession to adding Western technology to a Chinese aircraft in the year 2020 by which time Chinese avionics technology would be cutting edge!!!!!



China will be busy with far more advanced fighterjets in 2020... Besides that it will have something with Gwadar...

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## sancho

Luffy 500 said:


> What are the chances of china making a STOVL fighter out of J31? Is it possible for china to make something like F35 B in J31?



Why would Chinese need a STOVL version at all? Their current carrier is STOBAR, their future possibly even CATOBAR and unless they have similar nonsense plans like USN, to operated dedicated carriers for a STOVL fighters and helicopters, a J31(B) is not really needed.


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## Mujahid Memon

Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?



Single engine fighters have the advantages of less cost and more maneuverability than twin engine fighters


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## Munir

I did not know single engined are less maneuverable... Would you explain to me how?


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## Chak Bamu

Faizan Memon said:


> Single engine fighters have the advantages of less cost and more maneuverability than twin engine fighters



Not to mention a much quicker turn around time. A force comprising single engine planes can generate seriously higher number of sorties. PAF with its defensive doctrine has a serious edge over IAF in this regard. This is seldom mentioned, but is the real reason why we are in love with single engine planes.

I can not say if single engine planes can match twin engine planes in stealth. One has to think about missile compartments, reducing IR signature, penalties associated with stealth features (paint, sawtooth edges, shape), etc... Perhaps @Munir can share his opinion. Perhaps there should (or was ever?) a thread dedicated to discussions relating to single engine stealth aircraft possibilities. Opinions?


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## Chak Bamu

@Munir, he meant opposite of what you are inferring. Check his post again.


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## Storm Force

Single engine fighter doctrine is fine if the fighter has advanced radars weapons and jammers and great twr like j10 and F16.....imagine a paf with 250 f16 and j10


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## Chak Bamu

Storm Force said:


> Single engine fighter doctrine is fine if the fighter has advanced radars weapons and jammers and great twr like j10 and F16.....imagine a paf with 250 f16 and j10



I would much rather imagine a vibrant economy, improving social indicators, and friendly neighbors. Massive spending for expensive planes does not enter my imagination so readily. Besides PAF knows what it is doing with JF17.

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## Nishan_101

I think that PAC will start the production of JF-17 Block-IIs from 2014 INSHA ALLAH. Also I am sure they are going to be able to assemble about 25-35 Aircraft per year which is good and surely PAF will going to procure about:
85 JF-17 Block-IIs (Single seat)
20 JF-17 Block-IIs (Dual Seat)
35-50 JF-17 Block-IIs (Dual Seat) as AJT for CSS

I am sure that this can happen in 5 years time starting from 2014. Although countries like Egypt, Libya, Algeria should look into CAC and PAC for getting license to assemble these aircraft along with RD-93B from Russia at home.

There are also some great chances that Sri Lanka might going to order about 20 JF-17 Block-II(Dual Seat) along with Bangladesh and other African countries.


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## Pinnacle

Nishan_101 said:


> There are also some great chances that Sri Lanka might going to order about 20 JF-17 Block-II(Dual Seat) along with Bangladesh and other African countries.


Any confirmation or source ?? 
I read somewhere that Bangladesh rejected JF-17....


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## gambit

Chak Bamu said:


> Not to mention a much quicker turn around time. A force comprising single engine planes can generate seriously higher number of sorties. PAF with its defensive doctrine has a serious edge over IAF in this regard. This is seldom mentioned, but is the real reason why we are in love with single engine planes.
> 
> I can not say if single engine planes can match twin engine planes in stealth. One has to think about missile compartments, reducing IR signature, penalties associated with stealth features (paint, sawtooth edges, shape), etc... Perhaps @Munir can share his opinion. Perhaps there should (or was ever?) a thread dedicated to discussions relating to single engine stealth aircraft possibilities. Opinions?


In theory, a single engine configuration make it easier to shape to control RCS. Shaping is the current dominant method.

In theory and in practice, the goal is to control the *QUANTITY* of radiators, in other words, any kind of body and surface discontinuities that will allow reflections or surface traveling waves to 'leap off' the body and 'escape' into free space.







Everyone have seen the above illustration before. Any body is a finite body. The impinging radar signal have to leave that finite body some time. So why would you want to create escape points? Unfortunately, aerodynamics demands we create those escape points, called 'wings', 'horizontal' and 'vertical' stabilators, and 'fins'. Without these structures, we would not have an 'aircraft'. We also need propulsion, so we added engines, from open air propellers to enclosed versions call 'jet engine'.

The more we have of these structures, including communication antennas and weapons, the higher our body's radar cross section (RCS). That is the EM price we have to pay in order to have a flying machine. Unfortunately, we do not have a sphere, the ideal body, with some mysterious propulsion technology that have no 'intake' or 'exhaust' structures.

So in theory and practice, a single engine configuration is preferable in terms of trying to obey the shaping rule. But combat may demand otherwise...

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## That Guy

Luffy 500 said:


> What are the chances of china making a STOVL fighter out of J31? Is it possible for china to make something like F35 B in J31?



It's certainly possible, I wouldn't be surprised if they're researching the technology as we speak. The problem is how long it will take to implement such a technology into a fighter aircraft, and if it is even needed at all.

To this day, I still find the very concept of STOVL as a luxury gimmick that a military doesn't really need, but is nice to have.

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## That Guy

danish falcon said:


> Any confirmation or source ??
> I read somewhere that Bangladesh rejected JF-17....



Sri Lanka has already been confirmed, according to SL members of the forums, their initial purchase will be 6 fighters with an option of 12 more.

Airforce to purchase 06 combat planes

Bangladesh probably did reject it, and even if they didn't, Pakistan wouldn't be too happy with the sale. Giving the JF-17 to Bangladesh is the same as handing it over to India.

I know Bangladeshi members on these forums would disagree, but with their government being pro-Indian as it is, their government would happily let India take a look at it all they want.

I will even go so far as to ask what need does the BAF have of the JF-17? It's current fleet is good enough to handle it's current needs. It's not under the threat of foreign forces using advanced jets to invade BAF air-space, so I don't see the logic in purchasing such an advanced fighter.

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## Pinnacle

I think this is very good deal if it happens it will be very good for future JF-17 sales. 
Is the deal with Sri Lanka is for block-1 or block-2 .. ??


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## Nishan_101

Xracer said:


> any news about Chengdu: J-10 when its to coming to PAKISTAN or is the Deal Scrapped??????? any one Kindly Put light on this matter



Yeah my friend, the deal is looking to be converted to other one which is J-31 and I am not so much sure but there is a possibility that PAC have been a partner in this program.



















I am hopeful that PAF Chief will going to visit Russia to gain license of RD-93B to be assembled at PAC and INSHA ALLAH will start production of JF-17 Block-IIs from 2014. Later on start the production of J-31 in Pakistan.

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## That Guy

Nishan_101 said:


> Yeah my friend, the deal is looking to be converted to other one which is J-31 and I am not so much sure but there is a possibility that PAC have been a partner in this program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am hopeful that PAF Chief will going to visit Russia to gain license of RD-93B to be assembled at PAC and INSHA ALLAH will start production of JF-17 Block-IIs from 2014. Later on start the production of J-31 in Pakistan.



Source or not real news. The J-10 is expected to be inducted in 2014-15 timeline, and it's already being tested with the new engine (making it legal for China to export it to foreign nations).

Pakistan and China are in a partnership on a project called J-2X, no one is sure if it's a 5th gen fighter or a 4.5 gen fighter with the quality and capabilities of a 5th gen. It could very well just be a stealth variant of the JF-17 thunder.

some basic info, if you're interested...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/108436-possible-single-engine-j-2x-concept-diagram.html


J-2X - yet another regional fighter? - Asian Skies

Chinese Military Photos&#65288;new thread&#65289; - Page 169



Xracer said:


> any news about Chengdu: J-10 when its to coming to PAKISTAN or is the Deal Scrapped??????? any one Kindly Put light on this matter



2014-15 is the deadline for the transfer of the Jets to Pakistan, it may be delayed as the new WS-13 engines are still stuck on major roadblocks (i.e poor quality turbine blades). We still have a year to see if the Chinese can make it happen, but the deal will go through.

As for the J-31, don't expect that till 2020-25 at least. The Chinese are a long way off before it's finished.

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## Storm Force

Some mighty ambitious speculations in here. Rangageaing from license building of j31 to some other top secret j2x. Unfornately most of this is from pdf sources rather than offical pak govt or chinease govt lips. If only speculation was all we needed today paf would already have 100 j10. In services rather than 300 f7 and mirage 5. We could do with some real offical news to make feel this is really being discussed .even the 36 j10 looks to have cooled lately


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## Munir

Not the same circus as MRCA, LCA etc...


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## Chak Bamu

Storm Force said:


> Some mighty ambitious speculations in here. Rangageaing from license building of j31 to some other top secret j2x. Unfornately most of this is from pdf sources rather than offical pak govt or chinease govt lips. If only speculation was all we needed today paf would already have 100 j10. In services rather than 300 f7 and mirage 5. We could do with some real offical news to make feel this is really being discussed .even the 36 j10 looks to have cooled lately



Buddy this is the standard mode of attack to mock any developments. We've seen this reasoning for many many years now. Nothing surprising about it. Have you heard of foot-in-mouth disease? Indians are particularly prone to it, especially when discussing China (and Pakistan). 

I've seen rumors emerging, getting stronger, and finally being validated by actual existence of projects. Case in point: J-20. A single-engine stealth fighter does not seem to be an impossibility. There is nothing wrong with discussing it. Its best to wait and see. But by the time a rumor does get confirmed. You would have changed your user name and be back talking BS. May I suggest 'Blind Bat' to be your next user name? Might be apt.


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## Storm Force

Nobody is disputing existence of j20 and j31 what I question is this huge Pakistani mindset and assumption that Pakistan is buying them or they in discussion for them. The best one yet we may get license production.

Why the hel would chins pass on its best technology having spent billions on research and development. You get nothing for free in this world


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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> Some mighty ambitious speculations in here. Rangageaing from license building of j31 to some other top secret j2x. Unfornately most of this is from pdf sources rather than offical pak govt or chinease govt lips. If only speculation was all we needed today paf would already have 100 j10. In services rather than 300 f7 and mirage 5. We could do with some real offical news to make feel this is really being discussed .even the 36 j10 looks to have cooled lately



Don't you get tired of speaking nonsense? I've already had this very discussion with you, unless you have a short term memory, you shouldn't keep repeating yourself.

If you find all of this as being nonsense, you're free not not visit there forums.



Storm Force said:


> Nobody is disputing existence of j20 and j31 what I question is this huge Pakistani mindset and assumption that Pakistan is buying them or they in discussion for them. The best one yet we may get license production.
> 
> Why the hel would chins pass on its best technology having spent billions on research and development. You get nothing for free in this world



Again, you and I have already discussed this. No one expects China to just give out licence production for the J-31, but it has already been confirmed as being an export plane. Who buys Chinese planes? Those that are closest to China and can't afford to buy western and Russian counterparts, i.e countries like Pakistan (which usually is the one of the first ones to order Chinese planes).


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## Storm Force

TOO THAT GUY


> I would be very surprised if the chinease made their cutting edge weapons avaiable for export as soon as they arrive in PLAAF
> 
> FOR ME ALL 3 of J10 and potentially J20/J31 are cutting edge weapons.
> 
> J10 has not a single export order since induction in 2006
> 
> WHY ?


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## Pinnacle

What is real name of the fighter... J-31 or J-21..??? 
pretty confusing..


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## Xracer

Nishan_101 said:


> Yeah my friend, the deal is looking to be converted to other one which is J-31 and I am not so much sure but there is a possibility that PAC have been a partner in this program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am hopeful that PAF Chief will going to visit Russia to gain license of RD-93B to be assembled at PAC and INSHA ALLAH will start production of JF-17 Block-IIs from 2014. Later on start the production of J-31 in Pakistan.


Thanks my friend



That Guy said:


> Source or not real news. The J-10 is expected to be inducted in 2014-15 timeline, and it's already being tested with the new engine (making it legal for China to export it to foreign nations).
> 
> Pakistan and China are in a partnership on a project called J-2X, no one is sure if it's a 5th gen fighter or a 4.5 gen fighter with the quality and capabilities of a 5th gen. It could very well just be a stealth variant of the JF-17 thunder.
> 
> some basic info, if you're interested...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/108436-possible-single-engine-j-2x-concept-diagram.html
> 
> 
> J-2X - yet another regional fighter? - Asian Skies
> 
> Chinese Military Photos&#65288;new thread&#65289; - Page 169
> 
> 
> 
> 2014-15 is the deadline for the transfer of the Jets to Pakistan, it may be delayed as the new WS-13 engines are still stuck on major roadblocks (i.e poor quality turbine blades). We still have a year to see if the Chinese can make it happen, but the deal will go through.
> 
> As for the J-31, don't expect that till 2020-25 at least. The Chinese are a long way off before it's finished.


Thanks Brooooooooo


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## That Guy

Xracer said:


> Thanks my friend
> 
> 
> Thanks Brooooooooo



No problem.


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## razgriz19

Whenever PAF decides to buy 5th generation aircraft, it will be to replace the f-16s (blk-15)
which are gonna stay with us till 2020 at least.

And till then China will have all the time it needs to mature its engines.


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## That Guy

razgriz19 said:


> Whenever PAF decides to buy 5th generation aircraft, it will be to replace the f-16s (blk-15)
> which are gonna stay with us till 2020 at least.
> 
> And till then China will have all the time it needs to mature its engines.



PAF's older F-16s are going to stay in the forces fleet up until 2030-40 (they've been upgraded as such), and having a 5th gen won't change that fact.

The only reason why PAF would be interested in a 5th gen is because they don't want to give India a major tech advantage, and PAF will more than likely only get 3 squadrons (18 fighters a squadron, 54 fighters in total) worth of 5th gens. It just needs enough to make India think twice about an air campaign, and even if Pakistan's economy recovers and grows leaps and bounds, any more than 3 squadrons will bankrupt Pakistan's economy.


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## Cool_Soldier

Still no time frame for J10 arrival and we are discussing J-31....?
See here article about Fifth generation Fighters in ASIA.


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## Nishan_101

Storm Force said:


> Some mighty ambitious speculations in here. Rangageaing from license building of j31 to some other top secret j2x. Unfornately most of this is from pdf sources rather than offical pak govt or chinease govt lips. If only speculation was all we needed today paf would already have 100 j10. In services rather than 300 f7 and mirage 5. We could do with some real offical news to make feel this is really being discussed .even the 36 j10 looks to have cooled lately



Its less promising than the MMRCA which has been finalized officially and then cancelled as well. Now the INDIANs are not agreeing again on my opinion which I gave some time ago that IAF might be looking into many different types of fighters which they once not looking because of Ground and Spare Parts support problems.
Like MiG-35s might come and may be some used MiG-29s from Russian or any other country.
Rafael and EF-2000 direct sale about 80 of each
and some good numbers of Grippen as well.

I am 100% sure INDIANs won't agree at all....

MARK My WORDS


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## Storm Force

Nishan 101.

BIG DIFFERENCE between MMRCA of india & J10 need FOR PAF.

LETS ME EXPLAIN.

INDIANS have 170 SU30MKI today AND aere license building more too reach 270 BY 2018

Indians have GONE INTO partnership FOR PAK FA starting 2020 FIRST prototype arrives in india next year.

FOR THIS REASON some indians believe MMRCA is not needed especially sice LCA MK1 & 2 also are crawling to IOC. 

FOR PAKISTAN other than JF17 and a few F16s wat else is there ????

THEY REALLY NEED THIS FC20 IMO


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## Munir

Stormf... You cannot build a LCA, how do you partner PAKFA? You pay for the development.

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## Pakistanisage

Cool_Soldier said:


> *Still no time frame for J10 arrival and we are discussing J-31*....?
> See here article about Fifth generation Fighters in ASIA.







That is the reason why there is no news on J-10. Pakistan has limited funds and it has to make choices.

It is quite possible that Pakistan may join China in further development of J-31 instead and buy J-31's instead of J-10.

J-10 is 4.5 Generation whereas J-31 is 5th Gen fighter, and its a beauty:



http://killerapps.foreignpolicy.com/files/j-31belly.jpg

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## Pakistanisage

Storm Force said:


> Some mighty ambitious speculations in here. Rangageaing from license building of j31 to some other top secret j2x. Unfornately most of this is from pdf sources rather than offical pak govt or chinease govt lips. If only speculation was all we needed today paf would already have 100 j10. In services rather than 300 f7 and mirage 5. We could do with some real offical news to make feel this is really being discussed .*even the 36 j10 looks to have cooled lately*





Your HEARTBURN is quite understandable, but mourn or wail all you want, J-31 is looking more and more of a reality for Pakistan. This is China's first 5th Generation fighter for Export and you Geniuses should have learnt by now that Pakistan always gets the first dig on any exportable Weapon from China as it is its most preferred Customer for weapons.

As for your comment on J10 , why would we buy a 4.5 Gen aircraft if by waiting for a few more years we can instead aim for a 5th Generation fighter. Now that should really set your tail on fire.

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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> Nishan 101.
> 
> BIG DIFFERENCE between MMRCA of india & J10 need FOR PAF.
> 
> LETS ME EXPLAIN.
> 
> INDIANS have 170 SU30MKI today AND aere license building more too reach 270 BY 2018
> 
> Indians have GONE INTO partnership FOR PAK FA starting 2020 FIRST prototype arrives in india next year.
> 
> FOR THIS REASON some indians believe MMRCA is not needed especially sice LCA MK1 & 2 also are crawling to IOC.
> 
> FOR PAKISTAN other than JF17 and a few F16s wat else is there ????
> 
> THEY REALLY NEED THIS FC20 IMO



For once, I actually agree with you...well that's a first.


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## Quwa

Pakistan will eventually get J-31, new fighters replacing old ones, tends to happen with the passage of time. 

The real question is whether such an acquisition would be a limited one (e.g. the current Block-52+ purchase), or would it be wide-scale and number in excess of 100 or even 150. The latter is a crapshoot, we won't know unless Pakistan puts itself on a permanent upwards political and economic track.

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## That Guy

Mark Sien said:


> Pakistan will eventually get J-31, new fighters replacing old ones, tends to happen with the passage of time.
> 
> The real question is whether such an acquisition would be a limited one (e.g. the current Block-52+ purchase), or would it be wide-scale and number in excess of 100 or even 150. The latter is a crapshoot, we won't know unless Pakistan puts itself on a permanent upwards political and economic track.



Even with a good economy, Pakistan would buy a limited amount of J-31s. No one expects Pakistan to get more than 3-5 squadrons of fighters, meaning around 54-90 air-craft total.

There is no question on whether Pakistan will get it, the only question is how long will it take for Pakistan to get the desired amount. Pakistan's economy is bound to pick up within 2-5 years, especially with the war drawing down in Afghanistan and having a pro-business new Prime Minister, who's also keen on developing good relations with India. As such, Pakistan may opt in on the first day it's available (i.e 2020-2025), by that time Pakistan's economy is bound to recover completely and will be able to afford the J-31 in decent numbers.


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## Najam Khan

J-31/PAK-FA/J-20 all are at least 5-7 years away from being cleared for limited operational use or Initial Operational Clearance (IOC). This stealth technology and the desire to get better than the counterparts is not so easy to achieve; US had tons of knowledge and experience before initiating F-35 project. But the "desire" to make it the best-in-town was apparently not so easy to get.

The more time these countries spend on R&D of these projects, the more will be per unit price. The cost factor writers/experts are talking about today will either be diminished or gone when "operational version" of these stealth aircraft will be put in service. Same is the case with J-31, it will still be a fairly low-cost Stealth fighter in 2020; but won't be as cost effective as it is projected today.

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## Super Falcon

agree with stealth and imran bhai that PAF and pakistan defence thinktank is rubbish when you defend your country you look as many as option you can get similarties in machines will not do anything better see all other nation they have different type of planes with completely different roles we just have one role jet attack i know but when you face twice the power and speed of your opponent you dont have much time to react and in dogfightinh half a second is enough for enemy to destroy you we need to get out of 30 year old strategy of F 16 i bet if india attack pakistan F 16 cannot do anything with single engine hope time for change in startegy and change in thinktank of PAF and defence strategy and most importantly change of old mindset is required in PAF and defence give roles to yougsters and you see how they do it their way our probleum is 90 percent of seats decision makers are above 50 years and 80 years they have 40 years old mindset nead to change it bring them too 30 percent and remianing seats should be given to 35 years to 45 years people or less


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## Tajdar adil

why i want to know why Pakistan is not getting twin engin jets yes its expensive but just for showing to our enemies plzzz get twin engins plans like f15 j11b euro fighter or rafael...


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## Zabaniyah

Tajdar adil said:


> why i want to know why Pakistan is not getting twin engin jets yes its expensive but just for showing to our enemies plzzz get twin engins plans like *f15* j11b euro fighter or rafael...



Ignoring the $$$ factor, it is very unlikely that the US would offer the F-15 Eagle to Pakistan.


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## That Guy

Tajdar adil said:


> why i want to know why Pakistan is not getting twin engin jets yes its expensive but just for showing to our enemies plzzz get twin engins plans like f15 j11b euro fighter or rafael...



Actually, Pakistan does have a few twin engine jets, the problem is that they're old. There is the added matter that Pakistan's military has never felt the need to have modern twin engine planes, as China offered to sell Pakistan it's J-11bs but Pakistan rejected the offer.

The F-60 looks like it'll be the first twin engine fighter that Pakistan will buy in a LONG LONG time. This is almost a guarantee to happen, as Pakistan has recently shown interest (or bought) Chinese twin engine trainers (hongdu L-15) from China. This is supposedly to go give Pakistani pilots training on how to operate twin engine planes.

...At least that's what the rumors say.


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## Zabaniyah

That Guy said:


> Actually, Pakistan does have a few twin engine jets, the problem is that they're old. There is the added matter that Pakistan's military has never felt the need to have modern twin engine planes, as China offered to sell Pakistan it's J-11bs but Pakistan rejected the offer.



There was thread about it:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/11690-pakistan-has-been-offered-chinese-4th-generation-j-11-su27.html


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## That Guy

Loki said:


> There was thread about it:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/11690-pakistan-has-been-offered-chinese-4th-generation-j-11-su27.html



Yup, that's the one. Rumor has it though that the reason why Pakistan rejected it may have to do with Pakistan's aggressive push to develop good relations with Russia. If Pakistan bought the J-11, Russia would have been angry at Pakistan too for stealing it's intellectual property.

Either way, what's done is done. All Pakistan can hope to do now is buy the F-60 with (hopefully, reliable and ready) Chinese engines.


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## SBD-3

Najam Khan said:


> J-31/PAK-FA/J-20 all are at least 5-7 years away from being cleared for limited operational use or Initial Operational Clearance (IOC). This stealth technology and the desire to get better than the counterparts is not so easy to achieve; US had tons of knowledge and experience before initiating F-35 project. But the "desire" to make it the best-in-town was apparently not so easy to get.
> 
> The more time these countries spend on R&D of these projects, the more will be per unit price. The cost factor writers/experts are talking about today will either be diminished or gone when "operational version" of these stealth aircraft will be put in service. Same is the case with J-31, it will still be a fairly low-cost Stealth fighter in 2020; but won't be as cost effective as it is projected today.


But how sure are we that J-31 is a production concept? Even the rumored J-10B was revealed to be a prototype for J-10C (as per Chinese fora) and still with J-20, it is not clear that it would become the test-bed for another generation of stealth fighters.


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## Zabaniyah

That Guy said:


> Yup, that's the one. Rumor has it though that the reason why Pakistan rejected it may have to do with Pakistan's aggressive push to develop good relations with Russia. If Pakistan bought the J-11, Russia would have been angry at Pakistan too for stealing it's intellectual property.
> 
> Either way, what's done is done. All Pakistan can hope to do now is buy the F-60 with (hopefully, reliable and ready) Chinese engines.



Even if Russia protested, there would be very little they can do about it since it isn't a full member of the WTO.

The F-60 option isn't all bad, but then it'd take years or even decades for it to fully mature to reach similar standards as the F-35.


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## Pakistanisage

Loki said:


> Ignoring the $$$ factor, it is very unlikely that the US would offer the F-15 Eagle to Pakistan.







Pakistan has decided not to buy US manufactured aircrafts no more.

PAF will exclusively buy Chinese aircrafts from now onwards.

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## That Guy

Loki said:


> Even if Russia protested, there would be very little they can do about it since it isn't a full member of the WTO.
> 
> The F-60 option isn't all bad, but then it'd take years or even decades for it to fully mature to reach similar standards as the F-35.



Well, it would damage Pakistan's push to build good relations with Russia, but you're right, there is little they could do about.

The F-60 won't need to mature at a fast rate, as long as the bare minimum requirements are filled, having multiple air forces give it flight hours will drastically lower the time required to mature the system.

As for the F-35, please don't mention that potato. I'm already angry at my government for wasting billions on it and lying to the people about it.



Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan has decided not to buy US manufactured aircrafts no more.
> 
> PAF will exclusively buy Chinese aircrafts from now onwards.



PAF still wants to buy US planes, the only problem is the restrictions and potential sanctions on Pakistan in the future. If those restrictions are bypassed, and Pakistan is treated fairly (like India is), then Pakistan would go for US planes without any hesitation. The only reason why PAF is opting for Chinese planes is because China doesn't care how the PAF uses the systems that it buys from China.

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## Pakistanisage

That Guy said:


> Well, it would damage Pakistan's push to build good relations with Russia, but you're right, there is little they could do about.
> 
> The F-60 won't need to mature at a fast rate, as long as the bare minimum requirements are filled, having multiple air forces give it flight hours will drastically lower the time required to mature the system.
> 
> As for the F-35, please don't mention that potato. I'm already angry at my government for wasting billions on it and lying to the people about it.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF still wants to buy US planes, the only problem is the restrictions and potential sanctions on Pakistan in the future. If those restrictions are bypassed, and Pakistan is treated fairly (like India is), then Pakistan would go for US planes without any hesitation. The only reason why PAF is opting for Chinese planes is because China doesn't care how the PAF uses the systems that it buys from China.







Well Duuuh .

That is the whole point why we cannot trust the US or Europeans ( under US pressure ).

They are unreliable as a source. Why would we want to buy Billions of Dollars worth of Equipment from them and the equiment becoming useless if they stop selling parts under some embargo. So Billions of dollars worth of Equipment starts rusting away on the tarmac because of their actions.

This is why Pakistan has decided to go for Equipment where we are completely assured of continuous supply and preferably such Equipment comes with Transfer of Technology and the equipment is designed based on our stated specifications to suit our unique requirements. China is an ideal partner in this respect because they manufacture the equipment to our specifications as well as provide us with the TOT.

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## Fieldmarshal

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan has decided not to buy US manufactured aircrafts no more.
> 
> PAF will exclusively buy Chinese aircrafts from now onwards.



is this ur own assessment or a official policy


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## Dr. Strangelove

Fieldmarshal said:


> is this ur own assessment or a official policy



well that makes sense if we get jets from them china no restriction will be there on their use 
and this isnt the case with US OF A


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## muse

For the foreseeable future,(5-10 years) We should not consider any aircraft system other than JFT - this time frame offers us the opportunity to reorganize PAC as a public/private enterprise with shares traded internationally - this will bring in greater funds and allow PAC to set additional units, including dedicated propulsion research, development and manufacturing. This period of time will allow PAF to create an infrastructure to absorb future technologies, regardless of their origin and in doing so bring the PAF to the technological level it needs to be on to meet challenges - I would reiterate to any interested that the IAF or any Indian uniformed personnel are not likely to the adversary PAF and Pakistan will continue to be under threat from

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## panyimao

J-31 if the export is certainly the first user Pakistan because Pakistan is the Chinese people's most trusted brother, but I personally feel that I do not like Shenyang aircraft.

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## Pakistanisage

panyimao said:


> J-31 if the export is certainly the first user Pakistan because Pakistan is the Chinese people's most trusted brother, but I personally feel that I do not like Shenyang aircraft.







Pakistan Air Force will continue buy Chinese fighters that are available for Export and fit in well PAF strategic requirements. The next Purchase would likely be one of the Export versions of China's Fifth Generation aircrafts that are available for sale to Pakistan, so that PAF can face any adversary on its border that threatens its existence.

Pakistani people appreciate the help and guidance of their Chinese Brothers and standby their Chinese friends in international forums.

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## Najam Khan

hasnain0099 said:


> But how sure are we that J-31 is a production concept? Even the rumored J-10B was revealed to be a prototype for J-10C (as per Chinese fora) and still with J-20, it is not clear that it would become the test-bed for another generation of stealth fighters.



Based on the reports / hints by Chinese media/internet; It is believed that J-31 would be a production/export version stealth aircraft. The design hints that too; at least the engine has reusable/similar components to RD-93/WS-13 series. As compare to its predecessor's (J-20) design J-31 looks like a stealth aircraft packed with limited electronics; capable to deliver specific kind of stealth role. Unlike J-20, Its smaller weapon bay means that it can perform limited operations in a mission.

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## Domobran7

That Guy said:


> Actually, Pakistan does have a few twin engine jets, the problem is that they're old. There is the added matter that Pakistan's military has never felt the need to have modern twin engine planes, as China offered to sell Pakistan it's J-11bs but Pakistan rejected the offer.
> 
> The F-60 looks like it'll be the first twin engine fighter that Pakistan will buy in a LONG LONG time. This is almost a guarantee to happen, as Pakistan has recently shown interest (or bought) Chinese twin engine trainers (hongdu L-15) from China. This is supposedly to go give Pakistani pilots training on how to operate twin engine planes.
> 
> ...At least that's what the rumors say.



Twin engine jets are useful for carrier ops (corrosion issues) and large countries (Russia, China, India, Canada, Brasil) but I'd say that it is better to buy single engine fighters when possible, as they're cheaper, easier to maintain, and often more agile too.

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## That Guy

Picard578 said:


> Twin engine jets are useful for carrier ops (corrosion issues) and large countries (Russia, China, India, Canada, Brasil) but I'd say that it is better to buy single engine fighters when possible, as they're cheaper, easier to maintain, and often more agile too.



Deep strike missions often require twin engine planes, so they have their uses, even for those nations that prefer single engine fighters.


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## cirr

It's only a matter of time&#65306;

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## mil-avia

*PAF to acquire 36 5th generation combat aircraft from China*


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## Dr. Strangelove

mil-avia said:


> *PAF to acquire 36 5th generation combat aircraft from China*



ha ha 
thats j10 it comes IN 4++ CATAGORY NOT 5TH

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## Nishan_101

cirr said:


> It's only a matter of time&#65306;



We all are waiting to see that PAC comes out with JF-17 Block-II with its dual seat as well. I am 100% sure that if they are given money then 120 JF-17 Block-II(single and dual seats) will be produced and about 45-50 dual seats for CSS Pakistan.


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## Dr. Strangelove

^^^^day dreamer


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## Super Falcon

i dont know why pakistan airforce is still want to buy or make single jet engine fighters. i dont get it their planning is nil for me smaller countries like indonesia UAE qatar and whole middle east going for twin engine jet


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## giant panda

j20 or j31?

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## Najam Khan

giant panda said:


> j20 or j31?



Forget both till 2018, even PLAAF may not get these by then. Mature and trust-worthy platform is not so easy-to-get, especially when your are talking about an advance(and complicated) air frame with the best avionics.

Ref to ACM Tahir's interview in Janes posted by you.
Interesting play of words and hints about this-and-that; no clear stance given on JF-17/J-10/more F-16s procurement (hardly possible).

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## kurutoga

Given the status of J31 or project 310, I would not be surprised it only goes to an air force after 2020. PLAAF may not order it at all - that means funding is an issue after the initial stage. And the engine for the production model of J31 is not yet known/available.


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## That Guy

Super Falcon said:


> i dont know why pakistan airforce is still want to buy or make single jet engine fighters. i dont get it their planning is nil for me smaller countries like indonesia UAE qatar and whole middle east going for twin engine jet



Mainly money constraints. Twin engine aircrafts tend to cost a lot of money to operate and maintain, and Pakistan doesn't have that sort of cash at the moment.


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## mil-avia

*J-20 should be in customized version for Pakistan Air force by 2022.*


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## That Guy

mil-avia said:


> *J-20 should be in customized version for Pakistan Air force by 2022.*



Why are you posting weird google links?


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## rockstar08

insufficient funds ...


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## HAIDER

A PLA Navy official has confirmed to state-run media outlets that China will export the Shenyang J-31 twin-engine fifth generation fighter jet. 

According to the Taiwan-based Want China Times, Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong told the Peoples Daily this week that the J-31 was never built with Chinas military in mind, and it was highly unlikely that the PLA would ever operate J-31s off of its aircraft carriers. Instead, the J-31 was designed for export to Chinas strategic partners and allies, particularly those that couldnt purchase the F-35. 

The J-31, often referred to as the Falcon Hawk, Falcon Eagle, F-60 or J-21, is one of Chinas two prototype fifth-generation aircraft, the other being the J-20. It is built by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, and images of the aircraft first began appearing on the internet around this time last year. 

Photos of the J-31 allegedly conducting its first test run surfaced last November, followed by a one-quarter scale model of the stealth fighter being showcased the same month at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, Chinas largest airshow. It was identified only as the Advanced Fighter Concept at the show, although reports in Chinas state-run media said that prototype was a J-31. More recently, last month, the Global Times posted a picture of a J-31 doing a test run on its online edition. 

Previous reports in Chinas state-run media have been mixed as to whether the J-31 would serve as the PLAs future carrier-based fighter, or whether it was intended for foreign customers. Sun Cong, the chief designer of both Chinas current carrier-based aircraft, the J-15, as well as the J-31, told the Peoples Daily earlier this year that future versions of the J-31 might become China next-generation carrier-borne fighter jet. However, representatives from the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, a state-owned aerospace company that displayed the prototype at the airshow last November, billed it at the time as intended for export. 

An article in the Peoples Daily at the end of last month did little to clarify matters. The article referred to the J-31 as a fourth-generation stealth fighter, while also saying that is comparable to the U.S. F-35 fighter jets. The report first said that it would be exported abroad as a competitor to the F-35, before discussing the possibility that it will be Chinas next carrier-borne fighter. 

Experts predict that the J-31 will make rapid inroads in the international market in the future, and will undoubtedly steal the limelight from the F-35, the Peoples Daily report said, noting also that competition to sell the fighter jets to international customers was becoming a new variable in the Sino-US strategic game. 

The report added that, The J-31, with its main target as the export market, represents a serious threat to U.S. arms manufacturers. Later in the same article, however, Peoples Daily noted that the planes landing gear was built to sustain the impact of landing on a carrier better than the current J-15s, and therefore might be used as Chinas future carrier-based jet. 

One possibility is that China is building both a domestic and export version of the aircraft. Some foreign news outlets have indeed said that China may sell a version of the aircraft abroad under the name F-60, while maintaining a fleet of domestic J-31s for the PLA. 

With so little known about the J-31, its hard to gauge how credible Chinas claims are that the J-31 is a low-cost alternative to the F-35. In a report in Defense News last August, shortly after the first few images of the plane surfaced, Project 2049 Institutes Robert Cliff dismissed the notion that the J-31 would pose a serious threat to the F-35 in terms of overseas sales. 

India wont buy it. Russia wont buy it, Cliff noted, adding: That pretty much leaves countries like Pakistan, Brazil, some Middle East countries, none of whom [the U.S. is] likely to sell the F-35 to anytime this decade or next. 

He also said that he did not believe Saudi Arabia was interested in the plane. 

*Pakistan is perhaps the most likely foreign purchaser of the fighter. Pakistan and China previously jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder advanced fighter, although only Islamabad has ended up purchasing the jet thus far. This week Pakistani officials called on China to increase cooperation in the area of defense production. Beijing has long helped Islamabad acquire the necessary knowledge and expertise to develop a more advanced domestic defense industry. *
China Says J-31 Fighter Will Compete With F-35 for Sales | Flashpoints | The Diplomat


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## Black Eagle 90

HAIDER said:


> A PLA Navy official has confirmed to state-run media outlets that China will export the Shenyang J-31 twin-engine fifth generation fighter jet.
> 
> According to the Taiwan-based Want China Times, Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong told the Peoples Daily this week that the J-31 was never built with Chinas military in mind, and it was highly unlikely that the PLA would ever operate J-31s off of its aircraft carriers. Instead, the J-31 was designed for export to Chinas strategic partners and allies, particularly those that couldnt purchase the F-35.
> 
> The J-31, often referred to as the Falcon Hawk, Falcon Eagle, F-60 or J-21, is one of Chinas two prototype fifth-generation aircraft, the other being the J-20. It is built by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, and images of the aircraft first began appearing on the internet around this time last year.
> 
> Photos of the J-31 allegedly conducting its first test run surfaced last November, followed by a one-quarter scale model of the stealth fighter being showcased the same month at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, Chinas largest airshow. It was identified only as the Advanced Fighter Concept at the show, although reports in Chinas state-run media said that prototype was a J-31. More recently, last month, the Global Times posted a picture of a J-31 doing a test run on its online edition.
> 
> Previous reports in Chinas state-run media have been mixed as to whether the J-31 would serve as the PLAs future carrier-based fighter, or whether it was intended for foreign customers. Sun Cong, the chief designer of both Chinas current carrier-based aircraft, the J-15, as well as the J-31, told the Peoples Daily earlier this year that future versions of the J-31 might become China next-generation carrier-borne fighter jet. However, representatives from the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, a state-owned aerospace company that displayed the prototype at the airshow last November, billed it at the time as intended for export.
> 
> An article in the Peoples Daily at the end of last month did little to clarify matters. The article referred to the J-31 as a fourth-generation stealth fighter, while also saying that is comparable to the U.S. F-35 fighter jets. The report first said that it would be exported abroad as a competitor to the F-35, before discussing the possibility that it will be Chinas next carrier-borne fighter.
> 
> Experts predict that the J-31 will make rapid inroads in the international market in the future, and will undoubtedly steal the limelight from the F-35, the Peoples Daily report said, noting also that competition to sell the fighter jets to international customers was becoming a new variable in the Sino-US strategic game.
> 
> The report added that, The J-31, with its main target as the export market, represents a serious threat to U.S. arms manufacturers. Later in the same article, however, Peoples Daily noted that the planes landing gear was built to sustain the impact of landing on a carrier better than the current J-15s, and therefore might be used as Chinas future carrier-based jet.
> 
> One possibility is that China is building both a domestic and export version of the aircraft. Some foreign news outlets have indeed said that China may sell a version of the aircraft abroad under the name F-60, while maintaining a fleet of domestic J-31s for the PLA.
> 
> With so little known about the J-31, its hard to gauge how credible Chinas claims are that the J-31 is a low-cost alternative to the F-35. In a report in Defense News last August, shortly after the first few images of the plane surfaced, Project 2049 Institutes Robert Cliff dismissed the notion that the J-31 would pose a serious threat to the F-35 in terms of overseas sales.
> 
> India wont buy it. Russia wont buy it, Cliff noted, adding: That pretty much leaves countries like Pakistan, Brazil, some Middle East countries, none of whom [the U.S. is] likely to sell the F-35 to anytime this decade or next.
> 
> He also said that he did not believe Saudi Arabia was interested in the plane.
> 
> *Pakistan is perhaps the most likely foreign purchaser of the fighter. Pakistan and China previously jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder advanced fighter, although only Islamabad has ended up purchasing the jet thus far. This week Pakistani officials called on China to increase cooperation in the area of defense production. Beijing has long helped Islamabad acquire the necessary knowledge and expertise to develop a more advanced domestic defense industry. *
> China Says J-31 Fighter Will Compete With F-35 for Sales | Flashpoints | The Diplomat



The JF-17 program will not end at all rather. PAF would going to co-produce J-31 locally and I am sure they are in talks with China since 2 years or so.

I am sure we all are going to see at least 250-300 JF-17s in total and we are hoping to produce about 110+ JF-17 Block-IIs along with its dual seat which might have been started at PAC but not disclosed due to security issues.

Also they will acquire additional JF-17 Block-IIs dual seat about 50 of them for CCS training and another 50 from Block-IIIs.


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## Kompromat

The axe is about to fall on the J-10B.

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## Sinnerman108

Aeronaut said:


> The axe is about to fall on the J-10B.



Lets see when that happens.

It may happen, or may not, depending who we are talking about.

how about J-17 for CAS && all other tasks,
J10 && J31 for really important missions ?


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## LonE_WolF

I don't think thak PAF will be going for J-31 any time soon. unless our economy gets a major boost. I think J-10B fits PAF better

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## nomi007

which member will pay near about 50-60miliions us $ for the aircraft
when economy is going collapse
dollar is touching 111rs 
Billi k khowab main cheechare


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## That Guy

nomi007 said:


> which member will pay near about 50-60miliions us $ for the aircraft
> when economy is going collapse
> dollar is touching 111rs
> Billi k khowab main cheechare



The rupee may be getting worse, but the economy is getting better. This was expected as things always get worse than they get better.

Pakistan's economy will not collapse.

Having said that, this plane won't be available until at least 2017, which means that Pakistan has plenty of time to get back on it's feet and get it's economy back on track.


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## RAMPAGE

Aeronaut said:


> The axe is about to fall on the J-10B.


good riddance !!!! 

I hope we go with J-11 with Pak-turk developed AESA and other 4++ Generation avionics !!!!


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## That Guy

Aeronaut said:


> The axe is about to fall on the J-10B.



I still have high hopes for it. You make a very good point, and it looks more and more likely that this will happen, but as we both know hope doesn't equal reality.

We shall see.



LonE_WolF said:


> I don't think thak PAF will be going for J-31 any time soon. unless our economy gets a major boost. I think J-10B fits PAF better



Agreed.

PAF needs the J-10B to cover for the F-16's drawbacks (restrictions, sanctions, etc). The J-31 (perhaps an export version of the J-20) is probably a long term plan for PAF. They'll look into it by the time India gets it's first squad of FGFAs.


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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> good riddance !!!!
> 
> I hope we go with J-11 with Pak-turk developed AESA and other 4++ Generation avionics !!!!



Wait, Pakistan and Turkey are developing AESA? When did this happen?

Also, J-11 is not really needed, and I doubt Russia would be comfortable with the sale (even if Pakistani-Russia relations have massively improved).


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## RAMPAGE

That Guy said:


> Wait, Pakistan and Turkey are developing AESA? When did this happen?
> 
> Also, J-11 is not really needed, and I doubt Russia would be comfortable with the sale (even if Pakistani-Russia relations have massively improved).


Nope it was just a thought but if Edrogan succeeds in his Islamic republican plan, we can really move forward with our defense cooperation !!!



That Guy said:


> PAF needs the J-10B to cover for the F-16's drawbacks (restrictions, sanctions, etc). The J-31 (perhaps an export version of the J-20) is probably a long term plan for PAF. They'll look into it by the time India gets it's first squad of FGFAs.


JF-17 can be considerably improved to replace our F-16's (if really need be) but as for now we desperately need an Air Superiority Aircraft !!!!


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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> Nope it was just a thought but if Edrogan succeeds in his Islamic republican plan, we can really move forward with our defense cooperation !!!
> 
> JF-17 can be considerably improved to replace our F-16's (if really need be) but as for now we desperately need an Air Superiority Aircraft !!!!



As good as the JF-17 is, it is still no match for the F-16 blk 52s. Having said that, PAF does indeed need an air superiority aircraft, but the J-11 isn't the one that PAF needs.


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## RAMPAGE

That Guy said:


> As good as the JF-17 is, it is still no match for the F-16 blk 52s. Having said that, PAF does indeed need an air superiority aircraft, but the J-11 isn't the one that PAF needs.


o bhai we can make changes in the airframe and avionics and i think we can make JF-17 better than F-16 blk 52's.

btw which air superiority aircraft do you have in mind than ???


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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> o bhai we can make changes in the airframe and avionics and i think we can make JF-17 better than F-16 blk 52's.
> 
> btw which air superiority aircraft do you have in mind than ???



Our blk I (and maybe even blk II) won't be able to match the F-16 blk 52s. Besides, the JF-17 is a light fighter, while the F-16 is not.

As for the air superiority question, may be wait a while and buy a custom export J-31 maybe? Who knows? Considering the options though, we should just wait and see if the J-20 will ever be available for export. PAF HAS been interested in the J-20 after all.


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## Storm Force

TO FIGHT 272 OF THESE 






you need either FC20 OR F16/52 no less than 150 JUST TO STAY in the battle to get UNITED NATIONS involved in a cease fire 

That threat is here and no IAF has over 180 OF THESE today 

forgt the J31 OR J20 they are not needed TODAY or the next 10 years as the FGFA will not join IAF UNTIL 2022 EARLIEST

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## razgriz19

Storm Force said:


> TO FIGHT 272 OF THESE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you need either FC20 OR F16/52 no less than 150 JUST TO STAY in the battle to get UNITED NATIONS involved in a cease fire
> 
> That threat is here and no IAF has over 180 OF THESE today
> 
> forgt the J31 OR J20 they are not needed TODAY or the next 10 years as the FGFA will not join IAF UNTIL 2022 EARLIEST



first your air force needs to station all of them to Pak border, which is not possible.
You need 2/3 of the fleet on your northern border to counter China.

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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> TO FIGHT 272 OF THESE
> You need either FC20 OR F16/52 no less than 150 JUST TO STAY in the battle to get UNITED NATIONS involved in a cease fire
> 
> That threat is here and no IAF has over 180 OF THESE today
> Forgt the J31 OR J20 they are not needed TODAY or the next 10 years as the FGFA will not join IAF UNTIL 2022 EARLIEST



You post is interesting at the least. 1: Are the whole 272 stationed right by the Pak-India border? 2: Can you afford to empty out the other side and let the Chinese put their flag inside ASAM may be 50 KM more? 3: Are these "272" birds are entirely stealth and don't get locked on by the SAM's and the BVR's that the JFT and the F-16's can fire?
4: you REALLY think if the UN will be involved here? This isn't the 90's....both of you have sufficient capabilities to go bananas. 
5: even in the conventional wisdom.....if you are ready to lose about 60% of your 180 or 272 of these superman jets....then the scenario may apply as by that time, I'd imagine majority of the PAF jets will be destroyed or damaged too. But can you afford to lose over a few trillions in the shape of destroyed military hardware, damage to the economy and to your own defensive doctrine against the Chinese? What will that leave you with to defend against the Chinese? It'll take about 5-7 years to get back to the pre-war military capability.........means much weakened defensive posture for the next many years!
The only solution to your problems is for both of you guys to sit and talk and implement peace promoting efforts. War won't get you anywhere. In fact it'll probably bring down your economic infrastructure, will scare off the international investors in a way that they won't come back as they'll know how crazy and high risk this region is.

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## Viper0011.

Aeronaut said:


> The axe is about to fall on the J-10B.



I've said it many times. J-10B shouldn't be purchased. I'd go with J-11 with J-16's avionics. A few squadrons of those will create a tremendous air superiority aspect of things plus it'll allow the PAF to have a few more much tested Russian BVR platforms. So your BVR force will be much versatile. SD-10's code and capability may leak out just like the Chinese themselves steal other's secrets. The US AMRAAM's capability is already known by many countries so India would already know that. But added these in a mix with the Russian BVR platforms, it creates an interesting and diverse dynamic and hard to understand what'll come type of a scenario when you are flying against a PAF's jet.
Plus, a very few J-11's can maintain a defensive posture due to their sheer size and advance avionics (if taken from the J-16). A few squadrons of these for the PAF and for the Navy will have tremendous impact. Produce more JFT's for the main defensive tier. Use J-11's and F-16's for the higher end tier. And do whatever you can to get rid of these barbaric terrorists so that your country can become a safe investment zone and your economy can take off. Then you can go buy J-31 or if your economy is doing great.....even the JSF may be an option.

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## Kompromat

@orangzaib

If the economy was good, what you propse is ideal. However,on the pragmatic side of things, the Navy is going to stick its boat with the JF-17, since the Indian Navy isn't going stealth anytime soon.

For the PAF things are not easy as they haven't received much funding since 2007. Its heavily indebted right now, so i expect a lull period till 2020. With WS-13 being certified for production, the J-31 due to the same engine class as the JF-17 might become an irresistable option, due to the obvious perks attached to a singular powerplant.


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## S.Y.A

i say retire the whole mirage and f7 fleet and put all the money that we save from not maintaining them into jf-17 improvement and development.and also some SAM platforms, would be quite a lot of money since they make up about 70-75% of our air force. and will be totally useless in modern warfare against rafales and super sukhois


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## Storm Force

You want fight Su30mki fleet with the jf17 until 2020. That wil leave you with a massive firepower technology and range disadvantage. Lightweight fighters only would be a disaster for paf doctrine. The paf need a mmrca in much larger nos any fool can see that need


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## Chak Bamu

@orangzaib, I do not think that Russians would be amused by the prospect of Pakistan using Russian technology without Russia benefiting out of it. I see Russia getting uncomfortable as China gains influence in Central Asia and assuming Chinese influence coming to our aid with Russian technology is a bit too much as it is. As far as I can see there is little or no chance of us getting SU-27 versions without involving Russia in any such deal and certainly we have no money for any of that. This is just a day dream. I would like at least our Navy to get a squadron of these birds, but it is only a wish.

@Aeronaut, unfortunately JF-17 does not have the legs to keep IN well clear and out of the way. We would need a dedicated refueler based in Karachi and even then we would need JF-17s in good numbers in air to have enough fire power to be a serious threat. We have to make do with it not out of choice, but out of compulsion. But it is not a Bad choice as such, merely an adequate one.

@Storm Force, we do not need to counter everything that India brings up. Our doctrine is defensive and based on inflicting unacceptable losses in case of hostilities. If there is ever a war, it would likely be started by India and JF-17 supported by AWACS, and air defenses in own airspace would certainly not be a walk-over for any aircraft in IAF inventory as of now. Unless opposing air craft exchange more than four missiles each, JF-17 would not be found wanting in any way. 

Your day dreams are a substitute for your personal inadequacies and I suggest you visit a Shrink rather than waste your and our time here at PDF.

--------------------------------------------------------------


S.Y.A said:


> i say retire the whole mirage and f7 fleet and put all the money that we save from not maintaining them into jf-17 improvement and development.and also some SAM platforms, would be quite a lot of money since they make up about 70-75% of our air force. and will be totally useless in modern warfare against rafales and super sukhois



First, there are no Rafales in IAF. Second, PAF has a doctrine and it requires X number of aircraft with A, B, C capabilities. If we were to remove 70% of our air force, our doctrine, capacity, and capability would be totally shot. If you wish JF-17 to replace the older airframes to save costs, then indeed that is exactly what PAF is trying to do. I do not see F-7s venturing into hostile airspace. They would likely be point defense fighters and in that role they would be assisted by SAMs too. Moreover, any attackers would have to come through at least one line of defense. So, throwing away F-7s just like that makes no sense without having anything to replace it first. Mirages equipped with FLIR, Ra'ad, stand off weapons would still make themselves useful while operating under protection of F-16s aided by AWACS and JF-17s also.

We are better off trying to improve our relations with India, than spending money on defense; money that we do not have to begin with.

Apart from the above, I am all for J-31 and I would not mind Pakistan being the first to introduce stealth in this region, if possible. By 2022 we ought to be doing much better. And if we do not squander our resources, we should be able to afford a couple of squadrons.


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## Hafizzz

Loki said:


> I doubt if the Chinese would be willing to export the J-20.
> 
> Twin-engined jets are cool!



Why not ? Pakistan is China's all weather ally.


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## Storm Force

J20 is not for export full stop.
J31 is in intial deveopment stage only again no idea of induction date or price or export plans so masive assumptions by you people again.

Stil leaves you with nothing bar 63 f16s for next decade and your Sam capability is very modest. You people have nothing like India s300 system no indengious system like akash which u may produce in large nos at home and not the willingness to spend on hi end new generation same like the Israeli supplied Barak and spyder sams India are receiving. 

So I don't get these we have sams business you keep claimimg elta jammers in iaf are world class israeli supplied equipment and wil disruption on your radars and limited sams with ease

Before you worry about getting s fifth gen fighter which is 15 years away think abt the massive gaps you have now. 

As I see it get thru your awacs and 63f16s the rest is modest oaf capability


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## subanday

Well said

Even if we operate Mashak and K-8s only, you will not come up against us. Please allow me to sneak in a single Babur nuke tipped CM to ur bases like Bhatinda, Bareilly, Chabua, Halwara, Jodhpur, Pune, Tezpur, Sirsa hosting ur pride Su30mki and lets c what ur AF can do ..... cheers



Storm Force said:


> J20 is not for export full stop.
> J31 is in intial deveopment stage only again no idea of induction date or price or export plans so masive assumptions by you people again.
> 
> Stil leaves you with nothing bar 63 f16s for next decade and your Sam capability is very modest. You people have nothing like India s300 system no indengious system like akash which u may produce in large nos at home and not the willingness to spend on hi end new generation same like the Israeli supplied Barak and spyder sams India are receiving.
> 
> So I don't get these we have sams business you keep claimimg elta jammers in iaf are world class israeli supplied equipment and wil disruption on your radars and limited sams with ease
> 
> Before you worry about getting s fifth gen fighter which is 15 years away think abt the massive gaps you have now.
> 
> As I see it get thru your awacs and 63f16s the rest is modest oaf capability

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## Chak Bamu

Storm Force said:


> J20 is not for export full stop.
> J31 is in intial deveopment stage only again no idea of induction date or price or export plans so masive assumptions by you people again.
> 
> Stil leaves you with nothing bar 63 f16s for next decade and your Sam capability is very modest. You people have nothing like India s300 system no indengious system like akash which u may produce in large nos at home and not the willingness to spend on hi end new generation same like the Israeli supplied Barak and spyder sams India are receiving.
> 
> So I don't get these we have sams business you keep claimimg elta jammers in iaf are world class israeli supplied equipment and wil disruption on your radars and limited sams with ease
> 
> Before you worry about getting s fifth gen fighter which is 15 years away think abt the massive gaps you have now.
> 
> As I see it get thru your awacs and 63f16s the rest is modest oaf capability



Mercifully no capital letters this time. Did you visit your shrink?

Same old, same old. You never tire of posting same narrow focused rubbish again and again! Why has India not attacked Pakistan since 1971 if you all think you have such superior weapons. Obviously all is not as it seems. I see a definite psychological problem in you that goads to post jingoistic rubbish.

Any mine-is-bigger-than-yours eventually boils down to nuclear exchange. With that in mind, you are welcome to attack us with whatever you have got. Until you do that, keep it cool.

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## MZUBAIR

We cant buy more JF17's, submarines, helo's , 3rs Sqd of JF17 is haulted for year and so, J10B is still under development *, more then half of F16's are less then 4th generation n people are here thinking about J31 *

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## Storm Force

Why has the jf17 stopped at 2 dads. Wat is the issue 

Coming back to the thread does anybody have even a clue Wat this j31 wil cost and when it may be available if ever.

Now remember opening a thread on Wat we hope happens does not mean its coming.

Fc20/j10 thread opened in 2007 by you people over 200 in service in plaaf yet pat nowhere near getting one despite thread after thtread for 7 years.

Even worse example look at Indian mmrca joke purchase.

This is why we should concentrate on Wat we have not fanboys wishes or my uncle said


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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> Why has the jf17 stopped at 2 dads. Wat is the issue
> 
> Coming back to the thread does anybody have even a clue Wat this j31 wil cost and when it may be available if ever.
> 
> Now remember opening a thread on Wat we hope happens does not mean its coming.
> 
> Fc20/j10 thread opened in 2007 by you people over 200 in service in plaaf yet pat nowhere near getting one despite thread after thtread for 7 years.
> 
> Even worse example look at Indian mmrca joke purchase.
> 
> This is why we should concentrate on Wat we have not fanboys wishes or my uncle said



I think i've already discussed this with you a few months ago.

The third squad of the JF-17 has been met with delays because of financial constraints.

All we know about the J-31 is that it will be cheaper and will only be available after AT LEAST 2017, no guarantees. PAF has no real desire to induct anything more than a 4th gen right now, and will only consider 5th gens once India gets it's FGFAs up and running.

The FC-20's deadline was 2014-15, so we still have at least 1-2 years left for the fighters to be inducted into PAF. Though, there are indications that the FC-20 purchase may get axed for another fighter, but it's too early to say which one that will be. The ones in PLAAF service are J-10As, while PAF is only interested in J-10Bs and above.


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## Storm Force

Financial constraints on jf17 stopped third squadron. 

These are very modest costs and a fraction of Wat a potential fc20 may cost. 

I Dred to think Wat a j31 may cost.


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## jupiter2007

Storm Force said:


> Financial constraints on jf17 stopped third squadron.
> 
> These are very modest costs and a fraction of Wat a potential fc20 may cost.
> 
> I Dred to think Wat a j31 may cost.



Only way we can afford them if Nawaz Sharif stop any foreign trip in next 12 months because he likes to spend money like water.


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## That Guy

jupiter2007 said:


> Only way we can afford them if Nawaz Sharif stop any foreign trip in next 12 months because he likes to spend money like water.



Foreign trips are needed to build and maintain relations with foreign nations, and that's not to mention that these trips can also include economic deals and business delegations; The recent trip to Turkey is a clear example of this.



MZUBAIR said:


> We cant buy more JF17's, submarines, helo's , 3rs Sqd of JF17 is haulted for year and so, J10B is still under development *, more then half of F16's are less then 4th generation n people are here thinking about J31 *



I'm sorry, what? If you're talking about Chinese standards, then yes, but if you're talking about global standards, the F-16 platform is fourth gen through and through.


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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> Financial constraints on jf17 stopped third squadron.
> 
> These are very modest costs and a fraction of Wat a potential fc20 may cost.
> 
> I Dred to think Wat a j31 may cost.



It's only a delay, not a stop. It's expected to roll out by the beginning of next year, but I can't really guarantee this simply because I have no hard evidence.

Again, only 36 FC-20s are expected to be purchased in the short term and a potential 5th gen isn't expected until at least 2017-2020.


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## Storm Force

That guy. 

The j31 exists in two or three prototypes. There have been less than fifty flights its powered by a temporary Russian engine. 

First flight was in 2012

Even plaaf have estimated that j31 wil not achieve foc for a decade and first regimnts formed post 2020.

At this stage both j20 and fgfa are at least five years further in development cycle. Yet India a full partner in fgfa wil not get their first plane til 2020.


How the hell h ave you concluded that paf wil get a j31 before both China and India is ridiculous.

You are not a stake holder you can't afford fourth gen j10 even in small nos. Yet you claim post 2017 paf may get fifth gen fighter.

Absolutely impossible for paf financially and development wise. 

Try 2027 as a more realistic time frame 

Even India with ten times your budget and a fully fledged partner won't get fgfa until 2020


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## S10

Problem at this point with the J-31 is that it will be forced to stick with RD-33 engines for the time being, as China has yet to develop the next generation medium thrust engine in the league of EJ-200 or F414. That means the Russians will have a voice in the matter of export, and the plane cannot reach its full potential with RD-33.


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## flyingslayer

In my opinion,the J-20 is not the most fitable one for Pakistan Air Force in future.First ,as a long-range two engine heavy jet,J-20 is beyond of Pakistan's defence demand.Second,J-20 will firstly satisfy PLAF's demand---PLAF propobaly needs 200-300 J-20 jets.Third,purchasing J-20 is out of pakistan's financial bear abality.
But J-31 may be the not bad choice for Pakistan Air Force in 15-20 years' future,personally thinking ,of course.


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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> That guy.
> 
> The j31 exists in two or three prototypes. There have been less than fifty flights its powered by a temporary Russian engine.
> 
> First flight was in 2012
> 
> Even plaaf have estimated that j31 wil not achieve foc for a decade and first regimnts formed post 2020.
> 
> At this stage both j20 and fgfa are at least five years further in development cycle. Yet India a full partner in fgfa wil not get their first plane til 2020.
> 
> 
> How the hell h ave you concluded that paf wil get a j31 before both China and India is ridiculous.
> 
> You are not a stake holder you can't afford fourth gen j10 even in small nos. Yet you claim post 2017 paf may get fifth gen fighter.
> 
> Absolutely impossible for paf financially and development wise.
> 
> Try 2027 as a more realistic time frame
> 
> Even India with ten times your budget and a fully fledged partner won't get fgfa until 2020



I'm pretty sure we've discussed this already. Why is it that we have to keep going around in circles? Why do I have to continue explaining this to you?


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## Quwa

Although J-31 looks promising, I still think there's a void that needs to be fulfilled in the single-engine market. I can't help but shake the feeling that the J-31 will end up being too expensive to buy in large numbers (for most prospective customers). If only Pakistan had the resources, but I'd put it towards designing such a fighter with China's help. Imagine, an under $40mn single engine stealth fighter.


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## fatman17

*PRC&#8217;s Avic Plans To Expand Export Markets*

AIN Defense Perspective » October 11, 2013 by Reuben Johnson


Avic displayed this model of its Advanced Fighter Concept at Aviation Expo China last month. It closely resembles Shenyang&#8217;s J-31. (Photo: Reuben F. Johnson)October 11, 2013, 12:05 PM

The People&#8217;s Republic of China&#8217;s (PRC) state-owned and -operated Aviation Industry Corporation of China (Avic) presented a full line of its products and plans for further expansion of its export markets at last month&#8217;s Aviation Expo China exhibition, which was held in the Chinese capital, Beijing. The centerpiece of the Avic display was a line-up of models of those military aircraft programs that the conglomerate has been permitted to make public.

The most conspicuous of them was a smaller-scale version of a twin-engine, stealthy-looking design that Avic has dubbed the &#8220;Advanced Fighter Concept&#8221; or AFC, but which appears to be the fighter that has been variously labeled J-31, Project 310, Falcon Hawk and F-60. It is produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works in Liaoning Province. During the expo one of the People&#8217;s Liberation Army&#8217;s (PLA) official commentators, Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong, told the state-run People&#8217;s Daily newspaper that the J-31 was never built with China&#8217;s military in mind, and it was not likely that it would be built in a carrier-capable variant.

The goal of the program is to compete in the export market against the U.S.-built Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Aircraft design analysts familiar with the Chinese program state that both aircraft are designed to use materials and shapes that would give the aircraft a low radar cross section (RCS), and that both feature the same type of inlet design that precludes the use of a boundary layer diverter.

Conspicuous by its absence was the other stealthy combat aircraft program being flight-tested in the PRC, the Chengdu J-20. No mention has been made of the program in any official marketing materials or exhibition placards, and specialists from Chengdu Aerospace and Aircraft Plant No. 132 will not even confirm the existence of the project.

As one western diplomat based in Beijing pointed out, &#8220;The Chinese continue this same game of having one program for PLA use only that is cloaked in endless layers of secrecy, and then having a second program that is strictly for export. The pattern has basically been set with the [Chengdu] J-10, which is just for the PLA, and the JF-17/FC-1 program for Pakistan. The aim here is to continue on the same path now with a pair of next-generation fighter aircraft.&#8221;

Like the programs that preceded them, both the J-20 and J-31 seem to be at least initially dependent upon Russian-made jet engines. The PLAAF has reportedly been interested in purchasing the Saturn 117S engine that powers the Sukhoi Su-35 and T-50/PAK-FA fighters for the J-20, while the J-31 has flown initially with a set of the Klimov RD93 engines used in the JF-17.

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## Mugwop

This can make CAC upset with PAF. I'd say go for j-10B which is much affordable. who wants to wait till 2020 for J-31.


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## abhinavdutta

Pakistan has a lot ambitions whose graphs are pretty steep. They supposedly have a nuclear submarine project,icbm project and even plans to accquire an aircraft carrier. J31 in todays money is going to cost no less than a 100 million US dollars. If the timeframe the pakistan folks are talking about is 2020..... Then its utterly impossible. Pakistan simply doesn't have the funds required to house all these ambitions. To design and bild a 5th gen takes 15 yrs of R&D and manufacturing. China has a good ten years for induction....export orders will take more time. And looking at the current financial sitiation of pakistan none of their high flying ambitions will materialize.

Pakistan need to stop comparing themselves with their neighbours and sart building an effective financial trade to improve their financial situation at then further invest in such endeavours.


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## ARSENAL6

^ Jealousy at its best

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## airomerix

abhinavdutta said:


> Pakistan has a lot ambitions whose graphs are pretty steep. They supposedly have a nuclear submarine project,icbm project and even plans to accquire an aircraft carrier. J31 in todays money is going to cost no less than a 100 million US dollars. If the timeframe the pakistan folks are talking about is 2020..... Then its utterly impossible. Pakistan simply doesn't have the funds required to house all these ambitions. To design and bild a 5th gen takes 15 yrs of R&D and manufacturing. China has a good ten years for induction....export orders will take more time. And looking at the current financial sitiation of pakistan none of their high flying ambitions will materialize.
> 
> Pakistan need to stop comparing themselves with their neighbours and sart building an effective financial trade to improve their financial situation at then further invest in such endeavours.



Ofcourse you would know.

Tejas, Arjun and what not. Experience in faliures is what DODO and India can gripe about. 

Tell us more about what it takes to execute a project? Before that let us give you all a standing ovation on the sucessful integration of MMRCA in your front line squadrons. Period.

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## abhinavdutta

There absolutely nothing to be jealous of.


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## abhinavdutta

airomerix said:


> Ofcourse you would know.
> 
> Tejas, Arjun and what not. Experience in faliures is what DODO and India can gripe about.
> 
> Tell us more about what it takes to execute a project? Before that let us give you all a standing ovation on the sucessful integration of MMRCA in your front line squadrons. Period.



Another glorified pakistani who can't take the simple truth.

See maybe all these projects are failures all of them being india's first attempt at it making it on on its own. We havnt co developed anything with anyone. Besides there are "failures" we can afford . Your country is asking for a USD 5 billion bailout for the entire country. That's less than half of what our mmrca project costs ( you brought it up).
And dumbnut integration of the mmrca comes after signing it. We havnt signed it yet . The winner has been announced.

Worlds best fighter manufacturing company lockheed martin's project timeline -
F-22 Raptor - 1984 to 2005 (series production) - 21 years
F-35 JSF. - 1992 to 2015 (series production) - 13 years or even more.
Tejas - 1984 to 2013.
This being HAL/ADA first project has taken 29 years of planning, design and prototyping and now tests. So considering the f-22 taking 22 we are doing good with our first prject.

The day you guys stop blowing yourselves up and work on something on your own and not use somebodt else's leftovers or selling your ports to another nation you will probbaly go through the same issues evryone goes through.

And besides I wonder why china themselves have only four JF-17's considering that its so good 
Go cry to your momma .... Oops you have three!


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## Tacticool

abhinavdutta said:


> Another glorified pakistani who can't take the simple truth.
> 
> See maybe all these projects are failures all of them being india's first attempt at it making it on on its own. We havnt co developed anything with anyone. Besides there are "failures" we can afford . Your country is asking for a USD 5 billion bailout for the entire country. That's less than half of what our mmrca project costs ( you brought it up).
> And dumbnut integration of the mmrca comes after signing it. We havnt signed it yet . The winner has been announced.
> 
> Worlds best fighter manufacturing company lockheed martin's project timeline -
> F-22 Raptor - 1984 to 2005 (series production) - 21 years
> F-35 JSF. - 1992 to 2015 (series production) - 13 years or even more.
> Tejas - 1984 to 2013.
> This being HAL/ADA first project has taken 29 years of planning, design and prototyping and now tests. So considering the f-22 taking 22 we are doing good with our first prject.
> 
> The day you guys stop blowing yourselves up and work on something on your own and not use somebodt else's leftovers or selling your ports to another nation you will probbaly go through the same issues evryone goes through.
> 
> And besides I wonder why china themselves have only four JF-17's considering that its so good
> Go cry to your momma .... Oops you have three!



How the hell are you comparing a fifth gen advanced research and development project with 3rd gen junk.
F-22 took 21 years because it introduces a new gen. super cruise, super maneuverability, excellent radar, world class avionics suite and much much more. That 3rd gen junk which still don't pass basic maneuvering. And you're proud of 29 years of waste.


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## Viper0011.

abhinavdutta said:


> Worlds best fighter manufacturing company lockheed martin's project timeline -
> F-22 Raptor - 1984 to 2005 (series production) - 21 years
> F-35 JSF. - 1992 to 2015 (series production) - 13 years or even more.
> Tejas - 1984 to 2013.
> This being HAL/ADA first project has taken 29 years of planning, design and prototyping and now tests. So considering the f-22 taking 22 we are doing good with our first prject.



Blind patriotism fueled by sheer lack of common sense and idiotic ideas would produce your post. 

Man, did you just try to compare the F-22 and the F-35 with your little Tejas? (which is a Mirage 2000 derivative and has a LOT of Western input. Mind you the technology existed since 1970's when Mirage 2000 was being tested).
Comparing the existing 70's technology (with modifiations of course but majority of the stuff doesn't change, just the computer systems and applications / avoinics are more powerful), with F-22 and JSF is crazy. The later were produced recently and they have NOTHING in common with Tejas. In fact from what I've understood and gathered, the -22 and -35 don't have a lot of stuff in common either. They are designed for different roles, albeit Stealthy ones. The F-22 is a world within itself and creates the HI of the USAF. The -35 creates the Mid and the Low of the USAF, USN, the Marines, etc, etc. But BOTH are about a few decades ahead of the best of the best the rest of the world's produced. Definitely nothing comparing to the Tejas!!!! even just the timeframe of development or induction!

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## rockstarIN

orangzaib said:


> Blind patriotism fueled by sheer lack of common sense and idiotic ideas would produce your post.
> 
> Man, did you just try to compare the F-22 and the F-35 with your little Tejas? (which is a Mirage 2000 derivative and has a LOT of Western input. Mind you the technology existed since 1970's when Mirage 2000 was being tested).
> Comparing the existing 70's technology (with modifiations of course but majority of the stuff doesn't change, just the computer systems and applications / avoinics are more powerful), with F-22 and JSF is crazy. The later were produced recently and they have NOTHING in common with Tejas. In fact from what I've understood and gathered, the -22 and -35 don't have a lot of stuff in common either. They are designed for different roles, albeit Stealthy ones. The F-22 is a world within itself and creates the HI of the USAF. The -35 creates the Mid and the Low of the USAF, USN, the Marines, etc, etc. But BOTH are about a few decades ahead of the best of the best the rest of the world's produced. Definitely nothing comparing to the Tejas!!!! even just the timeframe of development or induction!



It seems you lack commonsense.

He just compared the 'period' not the technology.

What F-22 is to USA is what LCA to India.... ringing bells now?

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## Hammad Bin majid

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## airomerix

abhinavdutta said:


> Another glorified pakistani who can't take the simple truth.
> 
> See maybe all these projects are failures all of them being india's first attempt at it making it on on its own. We havnt co developed anything with anyone. Besides there are "failures" we can afford . Your country is asking for a USD 5 billion bailout for the entire country. That's less than half of what our mmrca project costs ( you brought it up).
> And dumbnut integration of the mmrca comes after signing it. We havnt signed it yet . The winner has been announced.
> 
> Worlds best fighter manufacturing company lockheed martin's project timeline -
> F-22 Raptor - 1984 to 2005 (series production) - 21 years
> F-35 JSF. - 1992 to 2015 (series production) - 13 years or even more.
> Tejas - 1984 to 2013.
> This being HAL/ADA first project has taken 29 years of planning, design and prototyping and now tests. So considering the f-22 taking 22 we are doing good with our first prject.
> 
> The day you guys stop blowing yourselves up and work on something on your own and not use somebodt else's leftovers or selling your ports to another nation you will probbaly go through the same issues evryone goes through.
> 
> And besides I wonder why china themselves have only four JF-17's considering that its so good
> Go cry to your momma .... Oops you have three!



LOL.

Please refer to the comment no #524 and 525. 

Totally justifiable to take three decades on a 'LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT' from the 70's. And later punching an imported chip set into the nose cone of a vintage mirage. Nice.

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## airomerix

rockstarIN said:


> It seems you lack commonsense.
> 
> He just compared the 'period' not the technology.
> 
> What F-22 is to USA is what LCA to India.... ringing bells now?



You lack the organ of brain altogether. 

Time period? Its like saying bamboo trees in India grow at a pace same as Red Woods in Grand Canyon. Hence perfect.

You idiot.

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## abhinavdutta

To all who have quoted me on this tread... The time period was mentioned. As lockheed has built an no of planes over the years and yet it takes time to build an aircarft let alone it being the first.and I guess your sources are the internet and the media.... Mine is an air commodore of sukhoi squadron rhinos based at lohegaon pune...time will tell how long it takes pakistan to get a 5th gen aircraft .

And besides the jf17 is to be be a second in line or even first in line for pakistan as far capability is concerned. Lca still stands after the su-30 mki and the rafales.. .. So even if its capabilities are limited the iaf have better aircrafts to take the lead.

Besides we will all know the truth in 2 years time.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

airomerix said:


> You lack the organ of brain altogether.
> 
> Time period? Its like saying bamboo trees in India grow at a pace same as Red Woods in Grand Canyon. Hence perfect.
> 
> You idiot.


 hahaha  za jawaab tagra da ...


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## abhinavdutta

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> How the hell are you comparing a fifth gen advanced research and development project with 3rd gen junk.
> F-22 took 21 years because it introduces a new gen. super cruise, super maneuverability, excellent radar, world class avionics suite and much much more. That 3rd gen junk which still don't pass basic maneuvering. And you're proud of 29 years of waste.



Bro no offence but none of u guys seemed to understand a simple example I was talking about TIMEFRAME not the technology involved its the first project hal has taken on its own and **** happens.


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## rockstarIN

airomerix said:


> You lack the organ of brain altogether.
> 
> Time period? Its like saying bamboo trees in India grow at a pace same as Red Woods in Grand Canyon. Hence perfect.
> 
> You idiot.


Ignorance is bliss. It is beyond your capacity.


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## Zabaniyah

rockstarIN said:


> What F-22 is to USA is what LCA to India.... ringing bells now?



Like seriously? SERIOUSLY????


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## rockstarIN

Loki said:


> Like seriously? SERIOUSLY????



Taking one 'line' out of context does not make any sense buddy..!!

read with full details, we were discussing about "time frame" where I mentioned that making a 4th gen (3rd gen as per Pakistnis) is a time consuming, rocket science with out much experience is much 'like' the experiences USA made their 5th gen fighter (programme started in 90s).

What all I was saying not to miss the forests while looking at trees.


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## Zabaniyah

rockstarIN said:


> Taking one 'line' out of context does not make any sense buddy..!!
> 
> read with full details, we were discussing about "time frame" where I mentioned that making a 4th gen (3rd gen as per Pakistnis) is a time consuming, rocket science with out much experience is much 'like' the experiences USA made their 5th gen fighter (programme started in 90s).
> 
> What all I was saying not to miss the forests while looking at trees.



Yes, I can see the "time-frame" you were talking about. But frankly, it is also quite irrelevant in the context. Developing a 5th gen plane is not the same as developing a 4th gen one. It's like comparing oranges and apples. The technology and methodology behind developing 5th gens are much more complex than 4th gen ones. I don't think even the Chinese have a good grasp of it yet. 

And I do agree with critics that the Tejas program was not without difficulties. Difficulties that could have been avoided if they were more flexible with the engine design (the hardest part to design in an aircraft). And I believe that is the main hindrance behind it. 

It doesn't have to be all about "Made in India" tag. The main part is how the program delivers. 

Ask yourself this: Did the Americans have any "Made in USA" issues while developing the F-22 Raptor? Not at all. Not even one bit.


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## rockstarIN

Loki said:


> Yes, I can see the "time-frame" you were talking about. But frankly, it is also quite irrelevant in the context. Developing a 5th gen plane is not the same as developing a 4th gen one. It's like comparing oranges and apples. The technology and methodology behind developing 5th gens are much more complex than 4th gen ones. I don't think even the Chinese have a good grasp of it yet.
> 
> And I do agree with critics that the Tejas program was not without difficulties. Difficulties that could have been avoided if they were more flexible with the engine design (the hardest part to design in an aircraft). And I believe that is the main hindrance behind it.
> 
> It doesn't have to be all about "Made in India" tag. The main part is how the program delivers.
> 
> Ask yourself this: Did the Americans have any "Made in USA" issues while developing the F-22 Raptor? Not at all. Not even one bit.



Again you did not get it. You still compare f 22 to lca or 4th gen to 5th gen. But not usa to india.... for india makong a4th gen stuff it self is such a task where the experienced usa took for the f22.


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## airomerix

rockstarIN said:


> Ignorance is bliss. It is beyond your capacity.



Dialogues. The only thing you Indians can deliver without delays. 

Still a long way to go. Keep us posted.!


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## Zabaniyah

rockstarIN said:


> Again you did not get it. You still compare f 22 to lca or 4th gen to 5th gen. But not usa to india.... for india makong a4th gen stuff it self is such a task where the experienced usa took for the f22.



English??? 

Perhaps that's why I'm not getting you and vice-versa. Or maybe you simply did not bother to read the specifics I had stated? Rather heed to your tantrums of patriotism? 

The point being said that the challenges being faced by the LCA program are not at all like the ones faced by the Americans in regards to the F-22.

There's a difference between delivering a project's deliverables effectively, and spending time on one project.


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## rockstarIN

Loki said:


> English???
> 
> Perhaps that's why I'm not getting you and vice-versa. Or maybe you simply did not bother to read the specifics I had stated? Rather heed to your tantrums of patriotism?
> 
> The point being said that the challenges being faced by the LCA program are not at all like the ones faced by the Americans in regards to the F-22.
> 
> There's a difference between delivering a project's deliverables effectively, and spending time on one project.




I know the challenges were different ..so are the countries. .but the degree of the difficulties are similar in sense. Hope you got it.


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## Zabaniyah

rockstarIN said:


> I know the challenges were different ..so are the countries. .*but the degree of the difficulties are similar in sense.* Hope you got it.



Excuses

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## Munir

I think we should put this in a different perspective. Both planes had the same ideology. Inhouse decent 4-4.5 generation fighterjet. The Pakistani made this a step by step approach because of the western arrogance. So we got a decent f16A as block 1. Now we will move towards block 40-52 level in some fields with block 2. And we have the plan to go further with AESA and even better ECM and weapons. So kind of block60 but surely not the same price. Maybe not in every aspect the same but for what we did achieve it is remarkable. It brought not only a inhouse workhorse but it is raising the level of production technology in Pakistan.

Here you have the Indian LCA. Making presentation of being the best with composites and this or that. But the problem is that is is many bridges to far. So they end up with testing and testing and testing. Surely not a bad plane but due to their approach it was bound to be a failure. They have no decent bases for producing this so they get one consultant after another which will milk them like no other... Their engine is history. The LCA is history.

It is not the Indian issue. It is typical with nations that have large sums of money. As long as you do not eat grass you will not achieve... Look what South Africa achieved during boycott... Now it has not even an airforce left.

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## ZohaibMumtaz

Munir said:


> I think we should put this in a different perspective. Both planes had the same ideology. Inhouse decent 4-4.5 generation fighterjet. The Pakistani made this a step by step approach because of the western arrogance. So we got a decent f16A as block 1. Now we will move towards block 40-52 level in some fields with block 2. And we have the plan to go further with AESA and even better ECM and weapons. So kind of block60 but surely not the same price. Maybe not in every aspect the same but for what we did achieve it is remarkable. It brought not only a inhouse workhorse but it is raising the level of production technology in Pakistan.
> 
> Here you have the Indian LCA. Making presentation of being the best with composites and this or that. But the problem is that is is many bridges to far. So they end up with testing and testing and testing. Surely not a bad plane but due to their approach it was bound to be a failure. They have no decent bases for producing this so they get one consultant after another which will milk them like no other... Their engine is history. The LCA is history.
> 
> It is not the Indian issue. It is typical with nations that have large sums of money. As long as you do not eat grass you will not achieve... Look what South Africa achieved during boycott... Now it has not even an airforce left.


what are you trying to say just tell us which plane is good JF-17 or tejas?


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## Chak Bamu

ZohaibMumtaz said:


> WTF indians are comparing LCA with JF-17 thunder huh? your tejas even not in production and JF-17 thunder is fully operational and we have 2 sqaudron of JF-17 thunder thats why shut the **** up indians


Watch your language young one. We do not want a troll fest here. I do not wish to waste my time sifting through pages of troll posts only to miss some real information.

@zohaibMumtaz, @[USER=151294]Rashid Mahmood Pls do not derail this thread.

Pyaray bhai @Zarvan, pls do not encourage them in this.[/USER]


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## Zarvan

Munir said:


> I think we should put this in a different perspective. Both planes had the same ideology. Inhouse decent 4-4.5 generation fighterjet. The Pakistani made this a step by step approach because of the western arrogance. So we got a decent f16A as block 1. Now we will move towards block 40-52 level in some fields with block 2. And we have the plan to go further with AESA and even better ECM and weapons. So kind of block60 but surely not the same price. Maybe not in every aspect the same but for what we did achieve it is remarkable. It brought not only a inhouse workhorse but it is raising the level of production technology in Pakistan.
> 
> Here you have the Indian LCA. Making presentation of being the best with composites and this or that. But the problem is that is is many bridges to far. So they end up with testing and testing and testing. Surely not a bad plane but due to their approach it was bound to be a failure. They have no decent bases for producing this so they get one consultant after another which will milk them like no other... Their engine is history. The LCA is history.
> 
> It is not the Indian issue. It is typical with nations that have large sums of money. As long as you do not eat grass you will not achieve... Look what South Africa achieved during boycott... Now it has not even an airforce left.


Yes. What you are saying is better than what I thought still if we can get closer to block-52 it would be excellent achievement


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## PiyaraPakistan

happy to see this thread alive but all the curtent posts are off topic plz stick to the subject ,loosing the charm of thread. thanks

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## Luftwaffe

ZohaibMumtaz said:


> what are you trying to say just tell us which plane is good JF-17 or tejas?


 
Any aircraft that achieves the objectives in indo-pak scenario is good enough.


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## Mugwop

Chak Bamu said:


> Watch your language young one. We do not want a troll fest here. I do not wish to waste my time sifting through pages of troll posts only to miss some real information.
> 
> @zohaibMumtaz, @[USER=151294]Rashid Mahmood Pls do not derail this thread.
> 
> Pyaray bhai @Zarvan, pls do not encourage them in this.[/USER]



We will have a troll fest here anyways because some indians have a complex and can't mind their own,So they have to say something stupid to satisfy their ego.

*B*tw I don't think J-31 is a good choice for PAF.

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## Aamna14

Jessica_L said:


> We will have a troll fest here anyways because some indians have a complex and can't mind their own,So they have to say something stupid to satisfy their ego.
> 
> *B*tw I don't think J-31 is a good choice for PAF.



Welcome back Jessica

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## Mugwop

Luftwaffe said:


> Any aircraft that achieves the objectives in indo-pak scenario is good enough.



JF-17 fulfills the requirements for ..I am not sure if i can say the same for tejas maybe because of short combat radius and it's canopy. Then again I don't wanna further derail this thread. We should focus on the topic.


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## Munir

Zarvan said:


> Yes. What you are saying is better than what I thought still if we can get closer to block-52 it would be excellent achievement



JF17 is less then F16 in US service but a big winner when it comes to inhouse production, unlimited spare parts, low flying costs, open source, room for improvement and many more options. Does F16 have Ra'ad, KG400, 802 alternative? Are we 100% sure that everything is reliable under all circumstances?

I agree that F16 has been tested and improved a lot. Yet we must not act like blind people and shout western slogans.

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## Luftwaffe

Jessica_L said:


> I am not sure if i can say the same for tejas maybe because of short combat radius and it's canopy. Then again I don't wanna further derail this thread. We should focus on the topic.


 
There is nothing wrong with lca canopy, it has an excellent visibility, Yes continue on topic.


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## ZohaibMumtaz

can we convert JF-17 thunder to Stealth HUH?


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## That Guy

ZohaibMumtaz said:


> can we convert JF-17 thunder to Stealth HUH?



First I'd like to say, this login is only temporary. I came on because I wanted to see what was happening, but this question compelled me to log in. I will not be logging in for a while longer, so moving on.

Anyways, it's certainly possible to do so, but it would take a lot of money and major redesign to achieve a "stealth" JF-17. Both of which Pakistan has neither the time nor expertise of achieving at this point in time; But it is possible.

All one needs to do is look at the F-15SE. It went from an air superiority fighter to a "stealth" fighter which is trying to compete with the likes of F-22 and F-35 as a cheaper (MUCH cheaper alternative).

F-15






F-15SE





The problem with converting a plane from a non-stealth to a stealth is that it can never be as truly stealthy as a plane that was built from the ground up to be a stealth fighter. The conversion process can also hinder it's payload capability; Where you would be able to carry multiple bombs and missiles before, you now have a much less payload because of the price you have to pay to keep the plane as stealthy as possible (i.e, internal storage, removal of external hardpoints, even lowering of the amount of fuel).

A JF-17 stealth is certainly possible, but it is impractical, both financially and militarily. It would be better just to build on a new fighter from the ground up, and take the things Pakistan has learned from the JF-17 and improve on them.


At this point, Pakistan shouldn't even be talking about a stealth fighter, simply because it needs to get it's domestic finances in order, and streamline it's military assets so that it isn't spending money on worthless projects, and taking care of weapons systems that may never see the light of day.

-Regards.

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## wangyifen

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I really have give up my hopes for J-10B, we ain't going to see it in PAF.
> No Memorandum signed, no agreement ... etc just an offer from China and that's it !


J 10 is outdated and expensive. I guess, PAF will joint with China to design new 5'g stealth fighter.Like jf-17,Al-Khalid，f22p etc.


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## rockstar08

i think j10's are the only suitable option available to paf from 2014-2018


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## Fahad Khan 2

PAF should go in similar project with China like JF-17 but pakistan had some expertise in 4 generation aircraft which is not in case of 5 generation... So in end we will end up in buying some stealth fighter... That also maybe we will see in after 2020 because PAF has cleared that our will play with 4th and 4.5+ till 2018...


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## nomi007




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## jarves

@nomi007 Why you are posting things in Chinese which nobody will understand??

Are you trying to keep the thread alive??

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## Viper0011.

That Guy said:


> All one needs to do is look at the F-15SE. It went from an air superiority fighter to a "stealth" fighter which is trying to compete with the likes of F-22 and F-35 as a cheaper (MUCH cheaper alternative).
> 
> The problem with converting a plane from a non-stealth to a stealth is that it can never be as truly stealthy as a plane that was built from the ground up to be a stealth fighter. The conversion process can also hinder it's payload capability; Where you would be able to carry multiple bombs and missiles before, you now have a much less payload because of the price you have to pay to keep the plane as stealthy as possible (i.e, internal storage, removal of external hardpoints, even lowering of the amount of fuel)


1) You are correct. Semi Stealth and "Stealth" as in F-22 are two very different things. F-15 SE is really a good match for the T-50 / PakFa type of jets. The problem is their airframes, the F-15 and the SU series (which PakFa / T-150 are based off of), by design can not be true Stealth jets. They'll offer reduced RCS, to a degree where it is undetectable at certain flight envelop from a height and speed's standpoint. 
For many buyers, that's just good enough. For rich countries like the US, Japan, etc, they want the true capability like the F-22 provides.

2) Just as a reminder, the F-22 was really designed based on the F-15. After studying its performance, flight profiles, agility, etc, etc.....then F-22 was born. But there was no option to modify the airframe as a true Stealth has a LOT more sensitive stuff, from surface to electronics than just RAM quoting and smooth, curvy surface. It is surprising to see the Chinese J-20. Besides the disposition, nozzles and openness of its engines (which will be fixed later to avoid giving heat signature out?), it seems as they took the F-22's tech and created a whole new plane. However, the Russians decided to use their SU series airframes and modified it. That's why I think in the next 5 years, the TRUE stealth (Tier 1) will be the F-22, F-35 (if it can keep weapons inside) and the J-20. The tier II would include the PakFa, F-15SE, J-31 and a couple of others from Korea and Japan IMO.

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## danger007

orangzaib said:


> 1) You are correct. Semi Stealth and "Stealth" as in F-22 are two very different things. F-15 SE is really a good match for the T-50 / PakFa type of jets. The problem is their airframes, the F-15 and the SU series (which PakFa / T-150 are based off of), by design can not be true Stealth jets. They'll offer reduced RCS, to a degree where it is undetectable at certain flight envelop from a height and speed's standpoint.
> For many buyers, that's just good enough. For rich countries like the US, Japan, etc, they want the true capability like the F-22 provides.
> 
> 2) Just as a reminder, the F-22 was really designed based on the F-15. After studying its performance, flight profiles, agility, etc, etc.....then F-22 was born. But there was no option to modify the airframe as a true Stealth has a LOT more sensitive stuff, from surface to electronics than just RAM quoting and smooth, curvy surface. It is surprising to see the Chinese J-20. Besides the disposition, nozzles and openness of its engines (which will be fixed later to avoid giving heat signature out?), it seems as they took the F-22's tech and created a whole new plane. However, the Russians decided to use their SU series airframes and modified it. That's why I think in the next 5 years, the TRUE stealth (Tier 1) will be the F-22, F-35 (if it can keep weapons inside) and the J-20. The tier II would include the PakFa, F-15SE, J-31 and a couple of others from Korea and Japan IMO.


wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

orangzaib said:


> 1) You are correct. Semi Stealth and "Stealth" as in F-22 are two very different things. F-15 SE is really a good match for the T-50 / PakFa type of jets. The problem is their airframes, the F-15 and the SU series (which PakFa / T-150 are based off of), by design can not be true Stealth jets. They'll offer reduced RCS, to a degree where it is undetectable at certain flight envelop from a height and speed's standpoint.
> For many buyers, that's just good enough. For rich countries like the US, Japan, etc, they want the true capability like the F-22 provides.
> 
> 2) Just as a reminder, the F-22 was really designed based on the F-15. After studying its performance, flight profiles, agility, etc, etc.....then F-22 was born. But there was no option to modify the airframe as a true Stealth has a LOT more sensitive stuff, from surface to electronics than just RAM quoting and smooth, curvy surface. It is surprising to see the Chinese J-20. Besides the disposition, nozzles and openness of its engines (which will be fixed later to avoid giving heat signature out?), it seems as they took the F-22's tech and created a whole new plane. However, the Russians decided to use their SU series airframes and modified it. That's why I think in the next 5 years, the TRUE stealth (Tier 1) will be the F-22, F-35 (if it can keep weapons inside) and the J-20. The tier II would include the PakFa, F-15SE, J-31 and a couple of others from Korea and Japan IMO.



Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu.....



danger007 said:


> wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...


 Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu.....data lane ko bolo to uran chu..........


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## nomi007

jarves said:


> @nomi007 Why you are posting things in Chinese which nobody will understand??
> 
> Are you trying to keep the thread alive??


没有亲爱的

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## That Guy

danger007 said:


> wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...


He's not downgrading the PAKFA's capabilities, but it is not news that the Russian plane has compromised stealth for it's agility capabilities. This is where the PAKFA will shine, and outperform the F-22 and the J-20, that being said, the F-22 and the J-20 (which is taking a lot of queues from the US 5th gens) will have better stealth, but will compromise on their agility and air superiority capabilities. The PAKFA was built to own the skies and pave the way for Russia's ground attack systems, but with some multirole capabilities. Where as the F-22 is a multirole platform, built to take on any role it's forced into; and the J-20 will primarily be ground attack with some multirole capabilities, built to get into enemy territory undetected, take out it's targets, and get out before the enemy air force gets a chance to even get into the air (i.e Taiwan and Japan).

They're built with different philosophies in mind, so comparing them is (in my opinion) foolish at this point, as none of them (not even the F-22) have ever been used in actual combat. Only time will tell who's right and who's wrong, but let's hope it never comes to that.

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## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...



I am a proud American. Trust me, I would be the last one to hype up the Chinese products. But I also like to say how it is. Sad part is, the Chinese stole sensitive 5th gen designs. I think you can google it and read up on it. Its public information and the Chinese members say it often on different forums. So, the knowledge about the 5th gen is again (and unfortunately) the top class based on the best of the best Western tech. 
Russia on the other hand, is using its SU airframes for this. Which will make the plane agile, fast and semi stealthy with RAM on it, but weapons load and other airframe related issues will make it less ''stealthy'' if you will. But again, for many countries, that level of Semi Stealth may be much better than a super expensive F-22 type of a plane. For example, if India uses them against the Chinese, you won't need a true stealth as the mountainous region between you and the Chinese will itself be good enough to cause clutter at higher altitudes and thus creating a full stealthy environment for the PakFa. 
Against the Pakistanis, it would still be very good as they don't have anything Stealth (or yet at the least). So please, try to read my post before just jumping up and down. I don't take sides. I just say the right thing without bias.

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## danger007

orangzaib said:


> I am a proud American. Trust me, I would be the last one to hype up the Chinese products. But I also like to say how it is. Sad part is, the Chinese stole sensitive 5th gen designs. I think you can google it and read up on it. Its public information and the Chinese members say it often on different forums. So, the knowledge about the 5th gen is again (and unfortunately) the top class based on the best of the best Western tech.
> Russia on the other hand, is using its SU airframes for this. Which will make the plane agile, fast and semi stealthy with RAM on it, but weapons load and other airframe related issues will make it less ''stealthy'' if you will. But again, for many countries, that level of Semi Stealth may be much better than a super expensive F-22 type of a plane. For example, if India uses them against the Chinese, you won't need a true stealth as the mountainous region between you and the Chinese will itself be good enough to cause clutter at higher altitudes and thus creating a full stealthy environment for the PakFa.
> Against the Pakistanis, it would still be very good as they don't have anything Stealth (or yet at the least). So please, try to read my post before just jumping up and down. I don't take sides. I just say the right thing without bias.





orangzaib said:


> I am a proud American. Trust me, I would be the last one to hype up the Chinese products. But I also like to say how it is. Sad part is, the Chinese stole sensitive 5th gen designs. I think you can google it and read up on it. Its public information and the Chinese members say it often on different forums. So, the knowledge about the 5th gen is again (and unfortunately) the top class based on the best of the best Western tech.
> Russia on the other hand, is using its SU airframes for this. Which will make the plane agile, fast and semi stealthy with RAM on it, but weapons load and other airframe related issues will make it less ''stealthy'' if you will. But again, for many countries, that level of Semi Stealth may be much better than a super expensive F-22 type of a plane. For example, if India uses them against the Chinese, you won't need a true stealth as the mountainous region between you and the Chinese will itself be good enough to cause clutter at higher altitudes and thus creating a full stealthy environment for the PakFa.
> Against the Pakistanis, it would still be very good as they don't have anything Stealth (or yet at the least). So please, try to read my post before just jumping up and down. I don't take sides. I just say the right thing without bias.


 am not questioning about your nationality, it is none of concern.. all am talking is about you are classifying pak fa with f 15 se.. which is 4.5 gen jet ... and adding j 20 with raptor... apart Raptor both of this two jets are still in developing phase , forget about full specifications. . there is long road for j 20 of j 31 or pak fa... as well china is lag behind the jet engine technology. .. may be I don't degrade foe capabilities when I don’t have idea...


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## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> all am talking is about you are classifying pak fa with f 15 se.. which is 4.5 gen jet ... and adding j 20 with raptor... apart Raptor both of this two jets are still in developing phase , forget about full specifications. . there is long road for j 20 of j 31 or pak fa... as well china is lag behind the jet engine technology. .. may be I don't degrade foe capabilities when I don’t have idea...



Take a look at F-15 SE's background.... and then take a look at the PakFa..many similarities from an engine and airframe's standpoint. Both have 5th gen electronics and tweaked sonic cruise capability. But....both are STILL based on 4.5 gen foundation, i.e. the airframes.
Both Raptor (operational) and J-20 (even still in design) represent a leap over F-15 SE or the PakFa. If you don't want to admit reality, its up to you. If the F-15 SE was that potent to compare with the F-22, trust me, you'd be seeing hundreds of orders already inked. Similarly, if the PakFa was really as true stealth and advanced as other major competition, you'd have seen about a dozen Russian allies putting advanced purchase orders on it. But nope. That's not the case. As far as the J-20 is concerned, the engine issue is a whole different discussion but doesn't jeopardize its operational capability if they keep using AL-31 engines. Engine has nothing to do with its stealth or advanced technology related characteristics, as long as the engine can provide the thrust the jet requires. J-20 is based on the Western tech as its known, stolen tech at that. But PakFa is a traditional Russian design with stealthy features.

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## danger007

orangzaib said:


> Take a look at F-15 SE's background.... and then take a look at the PakFa..many similarities from an engine and airframe's standpoint. Both have 5th gen electronics and tweaked sonic cruise capability. But....both are STILL based on 4.5 gen foundation, i.e. the airframes.
> Both Raptor (operational) and J-20 (even still in design) represent a leap over F-15 SE or the PakFa. If you don't want to admit reality, its up to you. If the F-15 SE was that potent to compare with the F-22, trust me, you'd be seeing hundreds of orders already inked. Similarly, if the PakFa was really as true stealth and advanced as other major competition, you'd have seen about a dozen Russian allies putting advanced purchase orders on it. But nope. That's not the case. As far as the J-20 is concerned, the engine issue is a whole different discussion but doesn't jeopardize its operational capability if they keep using AL-31 engines. Engine has nothing to do with its stealth or advanced technology related characteristics, as long as the engine can provide the thrust the jet requires. J-20 is based on the Western tech as its known, stolen tech at that. But PakFa is a traditional Russian design with stealthy features.


funny.. j 20 is not even close to raptor..in stealthy characteristics. . am not sure if you have radors on your eyes to calculate rcs of fighter jet.. Russians have years of experience in making of jets and chinese just fopied their tech...Russians engineers are not stupids .


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## Mugwop

We would have to wait another 6-7 years to get J-31


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## araz

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu..
> 
> 
> Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu.....data lane ko bolo to uran chu..........


The news coming out of IAF posted on open sources and part of a thread states that IAF itself is not happy with PAKFA. Now you did not refute your own AF but if someone else says it it is a problem. Please have some standards on the basis of which you make your accusation. 
Araz

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## That Guy

danger007 said:


> funny.. j 20 is not even close to raptor..in stealthy characteristics. . am not sure if you have radors on your eyes to calculate rcs of fighter jet.. Russians have years of experience in making of jets and chinese just fopied their tech...Russians engineers are not stupids .


Of course Russian engineers aren't stupid, but like I said before it comes down to philosophy. The Russians just don't see the need to having the same level of stealth as the US F-22 raptor, which is why a better comparison is the F-15SE, which would have similar stealth capability as the PAKFA, if not slightly inferior.

Also, like you mentioned, it's hard to say if the J-20 is superior, because the Chinese don't have as much experience building advanced fighters as the Russians and Americans do, but considering that if they even stole the technology from the Americans and presumably from Russia's Mig 1.44 project, we can safely say it's at a level that we can say it is on par with or is superior to Russia's PAKFA in terms of stealth, because there is little to no doubt that they used both examples to build the J-20, and perhaps even project 310.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

araz said:


> The news coming out of IAF posted on open sources and part of a thread states that IAF itself is not happy with PAKFA. Now you did not refute your own AF but if someone else says it it is a problem. Please have some standards on the basis of which you make your accusation.
> Araz



Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?



That Guy said:


> we can safely say it's at a level that we can say it is on par with or is superior to Russia's PAKFA in terms of stealth, because there is little to no doubt that they used both examples to build the J-20, and perhaps even project 310.



So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?


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## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> funny.. j 20 is not even close to raptor..in stealthy characteristics. . am not sure if you have radors on your eyes to calculate rcs of fighter jet.. Russians have years of experience in making of jets and chinese just fopied their tech...Russians engineers are not stupids .



So I ticked you guys off because PakFa would become an Indian plane and only God knows, the Indian people or their products can't have anything missing and they are better than everything else? Common guys, when does the blind patriotism become common sense? Wish to see sense taking over important discussions.
Read my post three times and then read your responses. I think you sound like a smart guy, you'll see disproportional responses to a credible fact based discussion.
I never said J-20 is on par with the Raptor. Let's make sure we are on the same page. There is NOTHING on par with the Raptor at this time in the entire world or all the way till 2025. J-20, however will be second to the Raptor and the JSF (although J-20 is STILL inferior to the Raptor).
Now when I say SECOND to the Raptor and the JSF, that's coming from analyzing other Stealth projects around the world. The J-20 is based on very modern Western stolen tech. Like the F-22 and the JSF, it is ALSO based on a brand new airframe with many sensitive techs and capabilities. Russians are smart people, no doubt about it. But they also produce planes with certain things in mind, the use of nano-tech is barely there in their Jet manufacturing. If you just take a look at their top line jet cockpits just 5-7 years ago vs. a Western top line jet's cockpit from 10 years ago, you'll understand what I am saying here.
So I am more than positive that the PakFa is a very potent plane and it'll probably have super low RCS, enough to consider it "Stealthy", but its SU based airframes come with their own issues by design and you couldn't make a "Stealth" plane out of that. 
Remember, Stealth and Stealthy are two VERY different things. So back to what I was saying, the Raptor and the JSF will rule the skies around the world. The J-20 will be the second thing to them and then the PakFa, and then the Japanese or Korean stealthy planes.

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## That Guy

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?
> 
> 
> 
> So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?


No, but when the technology that is used is built on decades of experience, you can be sure that even at the hands of new developers, it will be extremely potent.

Besides, it's not news that the PAKFA is has given up true stealth for it's greater maneuverability. It doesn't make the PAKFA a worse fighter, but like I said, it's built with a different philosophy in mind. Only time will tell who is right and who's wrong.


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## araz

[quotex"Bhasad Singh Mundi, post: 5366142, member: 154534"]Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?



So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?[/quote]
What experience do the russians have for us to believe that they can build a fifth generation plane going by their products. This logic means that you cant progress from one to another generation. Or did the martians help the US with their F117. People indulge in research and judicious helpings of industrial espionage to achieve their aims and objectives. I dont think currently any other power can match the Chinese and the US in R&D funding. As to J20 s capabilities no one really knows what the Chinese have achieved to date as no specs have been announced. We are all making guesses. However one of Autangzeb's eatlier post shed some light on tbe matter and you should refer to it.
Araz

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## That Guy

araz said:


> [quotex"Bhasad Singh Mundi, post: 5366142, member: 154534"]Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?
> 
> 
> 
> So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?


What experience do the russians have for us to believe that they can build a fifth generation plane going by their products. This logic means that you cant progress from one to another generation. Or did the martians help the US with their F117. People indulge in research and judicious helpings of industrial espionage to achieve their aims and objectives. I dont think currently any other power can match the Chinese and the US in R&D funding. As to J20 s capabilities no one really knows what the Chinese have achieved to date as no specs have been announced. We are all making guesses. However one of Autangzeb's eatlier post shed some light on tbe matter and you should refer to it.
Araz[/quote]
Couldn't have put it better myself.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

araz said:


> *What experience do the russians have for us to believe that they can build a fifth generation plane going by their products. * This logic means that you cant progress from one to another generation. Or did the martians help the US with their F117. People indulge in research and judicious helpings of industrial espionage to achieve their aims and objectives. I dont think currently any other power can match the Chinese and the US in R&D funding. As to J20 s capabilities no one really knows what the Chinese have achieved to date as no specs have been announced. We are all making guesses. However one of Autangzeb's eatlier post shed some light on tbe matter and you should refer to it.
> Araz



What can I say for the bold part. As far as making guesses is concerned I prefer to base my guess on decades of aerospace experience and capabilities of concerned program. Unlike China, both USA and Russia have extensive R&D experience of stealth tech that dates back to 70s and both of them had stealth technology demonstration programs (USA: XST, HAve Blue etc. Mig sukhoi had their own) that did all the necessary ground work for future operational stealth fighters.


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## danger007

That Guy said:


> No, but when the technology that is used is built on decades of experience, you can be sure that even at the hands of new developers, it will be extremely potent.
> 
> Besides, it's not news that the PAKFA is has given up true stealth for it's greater maneuverability. It doesn't make the PAKFA a worse fighter, but like I said, it's built with a different philosophy in mind. Only time will tell who is right and who's wrong.


yeah you are right... but stolen technology doesn't necessarily give you 100% solution for every complex problem, it comes with decades of experience. .. unlike 4th gen jets 5th gen comes with very very complicated complex problems. .. we can only see outside structure of j 20 or pak fa.. but not internal design... it is easy to downplay any thing. .. silly you grouping j 20 along with raptor and pak fa with 4++gen jet.... that shows ego to accept facts...


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## That Guy

danger007 said:


> yeah you are right... but stolen technology doesn't necessarily give you 100% solution for every complex problem, it comes with decades of experience. .. unlike 4th gen jets 5th gen comes with very very complicated complex problems. .. we can only see outside structure of j 20 or pak fa.. but not internal design... it is easy to downplay any thing. .. silly you grouping j 20 along with raptor and pak fa with 4++gen jet.... that shows ego to accept facts...


I'm not lumping them together, nor does my ego come into this (I don't know where you're getting this idea from). If you bothered to actually read my comment, it mentions philosophy, and comparing such generations is completely valid. If an older plane offers the similar or same capability, then the comparison holds. So it seems to me that I'm not the one rejecting facts here.

You said it yourself, we don't know the insides of the fighters, so all we can do is base our opinion on what information we do have.


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## danger007

That Guy said:


> I'm not lumping them together, nor does my ego come into this (I don't know where you're getting this idea from). If you bothered to actually read my comment, it mentions philosophy, and comparing such generations is completely valid. If an older plane offers the similar or same capability, then the comparison holds. So it seems to me that I'm not the one rejecting facts here.
> 
> You said it yourself, we don't know the insides of the fighters, so all we can do is base our opinion on what information we do have.



The question is neither India nor Russia interested to counter F-15SE.... that is not the proper answer..... how come the stolen technology gives you leap over the decades of experience... Russians does have tested 5the gen techn before..whereas chinese started their work recently... many people in this forum especially chinese members...started claiming j-20 will come to production by 2016 - 2017 blah blah.. common guys it is not toy... 

Give me the specifications how the Pak fa is comparable to only F-15 and inferior to J-20...


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## That Guy

danger007 said:


> The question is neither India nor Russia interested to counter F-15SE.... that is not the proper answer..... how come the stolen technology gives you leap over the decades of experience... Russians does have tested 5the gen techn before..whereas chinese started their work recently... many people in this forum especially chinese members...started claiming j-20 will come to production by 2016 - 2017 blah blah.. common guys it is not toy...
> 
> Give me the specifications how the Pak fa is comparable to only F-15 and inferior to J-20...



A stolen gun is the same as a gun bought from a store legally, especially when it comes to a fire fight. No knowledgeable Chinese member on the forums has said that the fighter will come into production by 2016-17, but after 2017. Of course the fighter isn't a toy, but considering the startlingly fast progress the Chinese are making, we can't ever be sure how close they are to actually putting the plane into production.

I never said the PAK-FA was inferior to the J-20, I said it has compromised it's stealth for maneuverability, and it's stealth may be closely compared to the F-15SE than the J-20 or F-22 (comparing isn't the same as saying they're equal, you can compare the F-14 Tomcat and the F-15 Eagle, don't that doesn't mean they're equal. The PAK-FA would easily be able to blow the F-15SE out of the sky).

Okay, let's for a second forget the J-20. Let's pretend it doesn't exist, now which is more stealthy the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which is more maneuverable, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which has a bigger payload, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Why, why, why?

If you can answer these question honestly, you'll realize that it's not a matter of superiority, but a matter of the philosophy of the developers of the fighters.


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## danger007

That Guy said:


> A stolen gun is the same as a gun bought from a store legally, especially when it comes to a fire fight. No knowledgeable Chinese member on the forums has said that the fighter will come into production by 2016-17, but after 2017. Of course the fighter isn't a toy, but considering the startlingly fast progress the Chinese are making, we can't ever be sure how close they are to actually putting the plane into production.
> 
> I never said the PAK-FA was inferior to the J-20, I said it has compromised it's stealth for maneuverability, and it's stealth may be closely compared to the F-15SE than the J-20 or F-22 (comparing isn't the same as saying they're equal, you can compare the F-14 Tomcat and the F-15 Eagle, don't that doesn't mean they're equal. The PAK-FA would easily be able to blow the F-15SE out of the sky).
> 
> Okay, let's for a second forget the J-20. Let's pretend it doesn't exist, now which is more stealthy the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which is more maneuverable, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which has a bigger payload, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Why, why, why?
> 
> If you can answer these question honestly, you'll realize that it's not a matter of superiority, but a matter of the philosophy of the developers of the fighters.



Stolen gun is different from the gun made by the stolen technology... I just don't want to take sides.... as well i don't want to downplay any one the projects under development... let both babies roll out ... then we can discuss which one is superior to other ...

it will be my pleasure if you share the specification of J-31 or J-20....


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## That Guy

danger007 said:


> Stolen gun is different from the gun made by the stolen technology... I just don't want to take sides.... as well i don't want to downplay any one the projects under development... let both babies roll out ... then we can discuss which one is superior to other ...


But like I said, it's not downplaying or trying to say which is superior. All the information we've gotten from them suggest all three are using different philosophies and potential scenarios to build their fighters, thus one plane may exceed in one area but suffer in another. They all offer capabilities that their armed forces need, and that should be good enough, there is no need to compare them to say which is superior, because their purposes are different.


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## Viper 94

Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?


Bull shit 
there is nothing in the constitution that says 
that PAF will not operate twin engine fighters
also why would Quid e Azam say that it doesnt make any sense


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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> Stolen gun is different from the gun made by the stolen technology... I just don't want to take sides.... as well i don't want to downplay any one the projects under development... let both babies roll out ... then we can discuss which one is superior to other ...
> 
> it will be my pleasure if you share the specification of J-31 or J-20....



Can you share the specification of the RQ-180?


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Take a look at F-15 SE's background.... and then take a look at the PakFa..many similarities from an engine and airframe's standpoint. Both have 5th gen electronics and tweaked sonic cruise capability. But....both are STILL based on 4.5 gen foundation, i.e. the airframes.
> Both Raptor (operational) and J-20 (even still in design) represent a leap over F-15 SE or the PakFa. If you don't want to admit reality, its up to you. If the F-15 SE was that potent to compare with the F-22, trust me, you'd be seeing hundreds of orders already inked. Similarly, if the PakFa was really as true stealth and advanced as other major competition, you'd have seen about a dozen Russian allies putting advanced purchase orders on it. But nope. That's not the case. As far as the J-20 is concerned, the engine issue is a whole different discussion but doesn't jeopardize its operational capability if they keep using AL-31 engines. Engine has nothing to do with its stealth or advanced technology related characteristics, as long as the engine can provide the thrust the jet requires. J-20 is based on the Western tech as its known, stolen tech at that. But PakFa is a traditional Russian design with stealthy features.



Based on 4.5th airframes... were you part of Sukhoi's DFMEA to claim that... visual cues are not the basis to analyse any design....



orangzaib said:


> So I ticked you guys off because PakFa would become an Indian plane and only God knows, the Indian people or their products can't have anything missing and they are better than everything else? Common guys, when does the blind patriotism become common sense? Wish to see sense taking over important discussions.
> Read my post three times and then read your responses. I think you sound like a smart guy, you'll see disproportional responses to a credible fact based discussion.
> I never said J-20 is on par with the Raptor. Let's make sure we are on the same page. There is NOTHING on par with the Raptor at this time in the entire world or all the way till 2025. J-20, however will be second to the Raptor and the JSF (although J-20 is STILL inferior to the Raptor).
> Now when I say SECOND to the Raptor and the JSF, that's coming from analyzing other Stealth projects around the world. The J-20 is based on very modern Western stolen tech. Like the F-22 and the JSF, it is ALSO based on a brand new airframe with many sensitive techs and capabilities. Russians are smart people, no doubt about it. But they also produce planes with certain things in mind, the use of nano-tech is barely there in their Jet manufacturing. If you just take a look at their top line jet cockpits just 5-7 years ago vs. a Western top line jet's cockpit from 10 years ago, you'll understand what I am saying here.
> So I am more than positive that the PakFa is a very potent plane and it'll probably have super low RCS, enough to consider it "Stealthy", but its SU based airframes come with their own issues by design and you couldn't make a "Stealth" plane out of that.
> Remember, Stealth and Stealthy are two VERY different things. So back to what I was saying, the Raptor and the JSF will rule the skies around the world. The J-20 will be the second thing to them and then the PakFa, and then the Japanese or Korean stealthy planes.



Air frame analysis on Appearance, Stealth validity on skin profile, Engine analysis on perceived manufacturing capabilities... Quick question what does ruling the sky means?

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Based on 4.5th airframes... were you part of Sukhoi's DFMEA to claim that... visual cues are not the basis to analyse any design....
> 
> Based on 4.5th airframes... were you part of Sukhoi's DFMEA to claim that... visual cues are not the basis to analyse any design....
> 
> Air frame analysis on Appearance, Stealth validity on skin profile, Engine analysis on perceived manufacturing capabilities... Quick question what does ruling the sky means?




I wasn't a part of the Shkhoi's design team but what if I told you I know enough about it enough? There are no visual cues here. If SU airframes were to be converted into anything Stealth, TRUST ME, the Russians and the Chinese would've done that long time ago, JUST for good press or marketing against the Raptor. The Russians actually spent a few hundred millions in trying to "do something" but it didn't work. They aren't big on nano-tech. But VERY sharp with one dimensional, older mainframe computing. And it is visible in their designs. Your want to see a basic comparison of technology? Google any Russian top line jet's cockpit pics in 2000 and then compare it with any modern American jet's cockpit (doesn't have to be top line). You'll see the magic of smaller - distributed / modular computing and architecture, paving the way for higher powered nano-tech devices that are currently being used in almost all kinds of new jets, specially, the Stealthy ones.

The SU's and overall Russian airframes and engines are ALWAYS known to be extremely high maintenance. Same was true for SU-30 just a couple of years ago. Add another complexity to it, that is the Stealth. Imagine the maintenance now. The MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is extremely low during flight within the SU series planes, including SU-30. In SU-35 series, the quality is much better. MTBF means a LOT of maintenance and major depot maintenance also with a few hundred hours of flight at times......imagine the risks due to this.

Also do this (you are about to dislike me a lot), take a look at the size of the Russian air force and its jet count. SU-30 supposedly is one of their top air superiority fighters. Why is it inducted in less than 5% of the air force like total around 100 or below? An X super power trying to "revive" its force.....why didn't they fulfill their needs first but sold hundreds of these to other places like India and China? The answer is, it was a great plane to show off force in the Indo-Pak or Indo-Chinese theater. It's not as great (for many reasons) to be facing off the US warplanes or NATO's advanced military might. Also, there was a reason why India went for Rafale  ??? If this plane was such a success, it would've seen similar success than the Mig-29. But its success comes from exports. Says a lot about the capability that this isn't adapted in house by the Russians. They moved on to SU-35, etc.
Now reason for the above issues lies in what you ignored from my post and tried to twist facts around. The lack of real advance engineering, lack of advance nano-tech based avionics, lack of proper quality measurement and control. At the end, you have a jet that has great features in some dimensions but lacks a lot in others. Such as maintenance, design, mufti-role, or something else. The Chinese are much ahead compared to the Russians if you take both the countries military industrial complex' starting and mid point. Reason is, the Chinese have learned a lot from the West and the US. Their tech base is on distributed computing and on PC / open architecture technology (which then gives birth to nano-tech). Which Russians spend decades using good old Unix and mainframes for their advance designs and technology. Sorry buddy. It is what it is!

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> I wasn't a part of the Shkhoi's design team but what if I told you I know enough about it enough? There are no visual cues here. If SU airframes were to be converted into anything Stealth, TRUST ME, the Russians and the Chinese would've done that long time ago, JUST for good press or marketing against the Raptor. The Russians actually spent a few hundred millions in trying to "do something" but it didn't work. They aren't big on nano-tech. But VERY sharp with one dimensional, older mainframe computing. And it is visible in their designs. Your want to see a basic comparison of technology? Google any Russian top line jet's cockpit pics in 2000 and then compare it with any modern American jet's cockpit (doesn't have to be top line). You'll see the magic of smaller - distributed / modular computing and architecture, paving the way for higher powered nano-tech devices that are currently being used in almost all kinds of new jets, specially, the Stealthy ones.
> 
> The SU's and overall Russian airframes and engines are ALWAYS known to be extremely high maintenance. Same was true for SU-30 just a couple of years ago. Add another complexity to it, that is the Stealth. Imagine the maintenance now. The MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is extremely low during flight within the SU series planes, including SU-30. In SU-35 series, the quality is much better. MTBF means a LOT of maintenance and major depot maintenance also with a few hundred hours of flight at times......imagine the risks due to this.
> 
> Also do this (you are about to dislike me a lot), take a look at the size of the Russian air force and its jet count. SU-30 supposedly is one of their top air superiority fighters. Why is it inducted in less than 5% of the air force like total around 100 or below? An X super power trying to "revive" its force.....why didn't they fulfill their needs first but sold hundreds of these to other places like India and China? The answer is, it was a great plane to show off force in the Indo-Pak or Indo-Chinese theater. It's not as great (for many reasons) to be facing off the US warplanes or NATO's advanced military might. Also, there was a reason why India went for Rafale  ??? If this plane was such a success, it would've seen similar success than the Mig-29. But its success comes from exports. Says a lot about the capability that this isn't adapted in house by the Russians. They moved on to SU-35, etc.
> Now reason for the above issues lies in what you ignored from my post and tried to twist facts around. The lack of real advance engineering, lack of advance nano-tech based avionics, lack of proper quality measurement and control. At the end, you have a jet that has great features in some dimensions but lacks a lot in others. Such as maintenance, design, mufti-role, or something else. The Chinese are much ahead compared to the Russians if you take both the countries military industrial complex' starting and mid point. Reason is, the Chinese have learned a lot from the West and the US. Their tech base is on distributed computing and on PC / open architecture technology (which then gives birth to nano-tech). Which Russians spend decades using good old Unix and mainframes for their advance designs and technology. Sorry buddy. It is what it is!



Interesting post, 

Seems like you are claiming to know a lot about Sukhoi's design process. Let's try to keep it simple.

Please enlighten us with the process f designing an airframe for a combat aircraft?

How do you Design an air frame for stealth, how is it different from an airframe for say a prop plane?

In your post you mentioned one dimensional computing, what does that mean, and how is it relevant to design of the airframe?

Can you also please educate us on efficacy of nano technology currently employed on combat jets and the amount of advantage it brings to the battlefield.

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Interesting post, Seems like you are claiming to know a lot about Sukhoi's design process. Let's try to keep it simple.
> 
> Please enlighten us with the process f designing an airframe for a combat aircraft?
> How do you Design an air frame for stealth, how is it different from an airframe for say a prop plane?
> In your post you mentioned one dimensional computing, what does that mean, and how is it relevant to design of the airframe?
> Can you also please educate us on efficacy of nano technology currently employed on combat jets and the amount of advantage it brings to the battlefield.



Interesting answer. Definitely tells me clear difference between a fan boy reader vs. an expert questioning. I am afraid I can't answer you on here. Here's why answering in the same order your questions came in:
1) Enlighten you on the process of designing of the aircraft. The answer in detail will make me write here for hours and if you think I have that much time, you are absolutely insane. Not to mention the post would turn into multiple pages. But, here's a low down for ya: A plane's design is actually a full program within itself. First, it starts with the end-user requirements. For example, when the US wanted F-14, F-15 all the way to F-22, there are very detailed analysis put into an RFP for Boeing's, Lockheeds, etc of the world. Those hundreds of pages at times worth of details tell ya' the requirements, end-mission, specifications, functionality sought and capability needed and the competition that they want to match (usually kill in the US's case as each new aircraft usually goes two decades beyond what the market has). 
Then, those requirements get solidify and priorities are given as to what's expected out of a program and in how much budget with what capability and with what "delivered" capability. Then the competing organizations start towards winning the contract by creating their baseline versions. The actual physical design starts from a concept on the paper majority of the time. 
Then goes through a significant phase of computer aided design AND modeling. Then modifications are made. Then, more computer aided designs are conducted. Then, finally a small prototype or a proof of concept is created. That then goes through internal testing (static, flight - air-tunnel, etc). When this is being done, usually, in parallel to it, are the avionics engineering being done in simulator cockpits, etc. Many teams work together to create different parts of this program like the weapons package, perceived flight profiles, mission modules, radars, engines, metallurgy, physicists and chemical composition of the surface, material, paints, user interaction (or the Man-Machine Interface as used in the industry). 
Then, all this comes together in the shape of a version 1 or small batch 1 airframe. This first iteration is primarily used for static tests initially. Later, the engines and basic set of avionics are installed and simulation flights are conducted under controlled patterns on the ground. 
Then, eventually, when a ground safety clearance is given, a flight occurs, usually very short and sweet to ensure test pilots familiarization with the plane and to ensure his safety. During this short flight, many sensors are installed that provide reading on ALL basic flight components. 
Based on which, later, more design changes are added and eventually, a plane flies with its initial desired flight performance package that traces back the capability sought initially to its maturity model (or Capability Maturity Model as the industry calls it).....validation of capability vs. the requirements is checked and enhancements are made.
Then the gov't awards a contract based after a ton of tests and competition. Once first batch serial production starts, the baseline is further enhance and blocks are created as a strategy (export vs. internal only with added features). I am dumbing this down as i can write all night on this. This process means thousands of highly qualified people working on the program and many companies that specialize in certain areas producing different parts of the "jet" you casually referred to. Hope this helps.
2) How do you design an airframe from Stealth . I can't answer that for you all the way. You can read up, in aeronautical, avionics and metallurgy schools, they teach basics of this. May want to take a course somewhere if you want to make a profession out of it. 
Some useful information is available on different forums also like alert5, etc. From its basics, its a combination of highly synthetic materials, super sensitive technology, specific special chemicals, highly skilled metals and computer tech that makes all that work together. Or you can be cheaper like semi-stealthy planes the Russians are building and create airframe based stealthiness that would work for many. Just don't bring it around the JSF or the Raptor. The pilot may never realize what hit it and how and where it came from.......in a conflict with the Raptor the only computerized sensor that works is the one that shows "EJECT.......EJECT.....EJECT" on the screen with loud beeping noise 

3) On nano-tech and other advance tech being used in the stealth jets (i mean REAL stealth jets)....these are the key to achieving air superiority due to many reasons. I won't waste my time on here as you can research this yourself. Google will get you good basics.
4) What does advanced technology has to do with the airframe and jet design? What's the difference in Indian Maruti's and a BMW 3.5 twin turbo? Technology that had enabled the BMW to move beyond 1950's Maruti types of cars and really create a high performance, high tech sports coupe..... I HOPE this answers it. I have a feeling, just like your countrymen, you WILL still come back with another set of silly question.

You ignored details from my post and changed the topic (just like you guys do to divert attention from topics you don't want people to discuss). Answer me, if the SU-30 was SUCH a GREAT platform and air superiority fighter, why is it that the manufacturer of that plane, the Russians decide to induct it in VERY Little numbers but gave it to China and India in VERY Large numbers???? I'd really like to hear this from you or others who think SU-30 is the mother of all advanced jets.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Interesting answer. Definitely tells me clear difference between a fan boy reader vs. an expert questioning. I am afraid I can't answer you on here. Here's why answering in the same order your questions came in:
> 1) Enlighten you on the process of designing of the aircraft. The answer in detail will make me write here for hours and if you think I have that much time, you are absolutely insane. Not to mention the post would turn into multiple pages. But, here's a low down for ya: A plane's design is actually a full program within itself. First, it starts with the end-user requirements. For example, when the US wanted F-14, F-15 all the way to F-22, there are very detailed analysis put into an RFP for Boeing's, Lockheeds, etc of the world. Those hundreds of pages at times worth of details tell ya' the requirements, end-mission, specifications, functionality sought and capability needed and the competition that they want to match (usually kill in the US's case as each new aircraft usually goes two decades beyond what the market has).
> Then, those requirements get solidify and priorities are given as to what's expected out of a program and in how much budget with what capability and with what "delivered" capability. Then the competing organizations start towards winning the contract by creating their baseline versions. The actual physical design starts from a concept on the paper majority of the time.
> Then goes through a significant phase of computer aided design AND modeling. Then modifications are made. Then, more computer aided designs are conducted. Then, finally a small prototype or a proof of concept is created. That then goes through internal testing (static, flight - air-tunnel, etc). When this is being done, usually, in parallel to it, are the avionics engineering being done in simulator cockpits, etc. Many teams work together to create different parts of this program like the weapons package, perceived flight profiles, mission modules, radars, engines, metallurgy, physicists and chemical composition of the surface, material, paints, user interaction (or the Man-Machine Interface as used in the industry).
> Then, all this comes together in the shape of a version 1 or small batch 1 airframe. This first iteration is primarily used for static tests initially. Later, the engines and basic set of avionics are installed and simulation flights are conducted under controlled patterns on the ground.
> Then, eventually, when a ground safety clearance is given, a flight occurs, usually very short and sweet to ensure test pilots familiarization with the plane and to ensure his safety. During this short flight, many sensors are installed that provide reading on ALL basic flight components.
> Based on which, later, more design changes are added and eventually, a plane flies with its initial desired flight performance package that traces back the capability sought initially to its maturity model (or Capability Maturity Model as the industry calls it).....validation of capability vs. the requirements is checked and enhancements are made.
> Then the gov't awards a contract based after a ton of tests and competition. Once first batch serial production starts, the baseline is further enhance and blocks are created as a strategy (export vs. internal only with added features). I am dumbing this down as i can write all night on this. This process means thousands of highly qualified people working on the program and many companies that specialize in certain areas producing different parts of the "jet" you casually referred to. Hope this helps.
> 2) How do you design an airframe from Stealth . I can't answer that for you all the way. You can read up, in aeronautical, avionics and metallurgy schools, they teach basics of this. May want to take a course somewhere if you want to make a profession out of it.
> Some useful information is available on different forums also like alert5, etc. From its basics, its a combination of highly synthetic materials, super sensitive technology, specific special chemicals, highly skilled metals and computer tech that makes all that work together. Or you can be cheaper like semi-stealthy planes the Russians are building and create airframe based stealthiness that would work for many. Just don't bring it around the JSF or the Raptor. The pilot may never realize what hit it and how and where it came from.......in a conflict with the Raptor the only computerized sensor that works is the one that shows "EJECT.......EJECT.....EJECT" on the screen with loud beeping noise
> 
> 3) On nano-tech and other advance tech being used in the stealth jets (i mean REAL stealth jets)....these are the key to achieving air superiority due to many reasons. I won't waste my time on here as you can research this yourself. Google will get you good basics.
> 4) What does advanced technology has to do with the airframe and jet design? What's the difference in Indian Maruti's and a BMW 3.5 twin turbo? Technology that had enabled the BMW to move beyond 1950's Maruti types of cars and really create a high performance, high tech sports coupe..... I HOPE this answers it. I have a feeling, just like your countrymen, you WILL still come back with another set of silly question.
> 
> You ignored details from my post and changed the topic (just like you guys do to divert attention from topics you don't want people to discuss). Answer me, if the SU-30 was SUCH a GREAT platform and air superiority fighter, why is it that the manufacturer of that plane, the Russians decide to induct it in VERY Little numbers but gave it to China and India in VERY Large numbers???? I'd really like to hear this from you or others who think SU-30 is the mother of all advanced jets.



OK... you had time to the post all this but not to answer simple questions.

As far as SU30's deployment is concerned.. lets see how many have been deployed, and I will quote the example of IAF, One of World's largest airforces. With 272 projected a/c's which is deployed 5 times the mirage 2K and Mig29's, flankers evaluation by IAF contradicts your claims. As far as RuAF is concerned, I am sure you do understand the events that have occurred in the three decades which have undermined their deployments. I hope that answers your question on SU30 deployments. Also I would like to mention that RuAF has ordered Su30 a/c which are very similar to MKI configuration last year, which say a lot about the platform.

And btw my first question wasj *not *on design of aircraft but design on airframe. As you are throwing design and manufacturing rhetoric all over, the reason why I asked the question was to point out that air frames are not designed for stealth, instead they are designed to Flexural rigidity and tensile strength on edgewise and flapwise configuration in static strain limits to mimic max G + 10% safety, and fatigue configuration to 1/2 of max G loading to million cycles at full amplitude and 350K cycles in 0.75 of Max G amplitude. In other words modern 4+ gen airframes profile design is not specific to any radar signature but purely to static and dynamic stresses .
Now the stress loading on a airframe is designed based on the aerofoil of the structure, which gives you the resultant Lift and drag coefficients> which in turn will provide you the load factors based on the acceleration that is desired from the structure. Thus you design the air-frame to load coefficients based on an aero profile. My interest was to understand, if there is something I am missing that has revolutionized airframe design that you were referring to.

Next is the claims that you throw around, In one of your posts you categorically state that


orangzaib said:


> The SU's and overall Russian airframes and engines are ALWAYS known to be extremely high maintenance.


 That is quite interesting because I haven't even found any instance where there was "high maintenance" required even on mig21 and Mig27 *Airframes*, on which i worked. Now LGU's are different and from what I have heard, USAF's platforms even have a higher mismatch LGU life compared to the airframe.

Also it will help if could shed some light on "one dimensional computing" and it's relation to airframe design as you ignored it your reply.

As far your dumbing down is concerned, If I do come across something that is beyond my comprehension skills, I will point out my difficulties. You can be as technical as you wan't to be when it comes to design and manufacturing. I have significant experience in design and testing of composite aerofoils along with stress analysis of landing gear units, in addition my specialization during my masters program was in non-linear structural analysis, so you can as technical as you want to be...

Btw Thanks for your career advise, but right now I am all set.

Next time just a simple coherent reply will do.

thanks

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## kaykay

@orangzaib you logic about Induction of Su-30MKI in RuAF is very flawed. They already have Su-27s in large numbers(350+) on which Su-30 was based on. And still they ordered 60 Su-30SM aircrafts(MKI standard) last year and also they ordered Su-35 in small numbers too so does it make Su-35 a bad aircraft too just because they are inducting it in small number? 
Similarly consider that USA doesn't operate most advance variant(Block60) of F-16 but does it make Block60 inferior than Block50 or 52?
PS: not saying MKI is most advanced flanker, su-35 would still beat it and only Super sukhoi will be close to or as good as Su-35.


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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> OK... you had time to the post all this but not to answer simple questions.
> 
> As far as SU30's deployment is concerned.. lets see how many have been deployed, and I will quote the example of IAF, One of World's largest airforces. With 272 projected a/c's which is deployed 5 times the mirage 2K and Mig29's, flankers evaluation by IAF contradicts your claims. As far as RuAF is concerned, I am sure you do understand the events that have occurred in the three decades which have undermined their deployments. I hope that answers your question on SU30 deployments. Also I would like to mention that RuAF has ordered Su30 a/c which are very similar to MKI configuration last year, which say a lot about the platform.
> 
> And btw my first question wasj *not *on design of aircraft but design on airframe. As you are throwing design and manufacturing rhetoric all over, the reason why I asked the question was to point out that air frames are not designed for stealth, instead they are designed to Flexural rigidity and tensile strength on edgewise and flapwise configuration in static strain limits to mimic max G + 10% safety, and fatigue configuration to 1/2 of max G loading to million cycles at full amplitude and 350K cycles in 0.75 of Max G amplitude. In other words modern 4+ gen airframes profile design is not specific to any radar signature but purely to static and dynamic stresses .
> Now the stress loading on a airframe is designed based on the aerofoil of the structure, which gives you the resultant Lift and drag coefficients> which in turn will provide you the load factors based on the acceleration that is desired from the structure. Thus you design the air-frame to load coefficients based on an aero profile. My interest was to understand, if there is something I am missing that has revolutionized airframe design that you were referring to.
> 
> Next is the claims that you throw around, In one of your posts you categorically state that That is quite interesting because I haven't even found any instance where there was "high maintenance" required even on mig21 and Mig27 *Airframes*, on which i worked. Now LGU's are different and from what I have heard, USAF's platforms even have a higher mismatch LGU life compared to the airframe.
> 
> Also it will help if could shed some light on "one dimensional computing" and it's relation to airframe design as you ignored it your reply.
> 
> As far your dumbing down is concerned, If I do come across something that is beyond my comprehension skills, I will point out my difficulties. You can be as technical as you wan't to be when it comes to design and manufacturing. I have significant experience in design and testing of composite aerofoils along with stress analysis of landing gear units, in addition my specialization during my masters program was in non-linear structural analysis, so you can as technical as you want to be...
> 
> Btw Thanks for your career advise, but right now I am all set.
> 
> Next time just a simple coherent reply will do.
> 
> thanks



I think the perception of Russian aircraft has always been reported incorrectly. The issue with Russian systems was their engines(poor service life and quality).. antiquated manufacturing techniques for electronics..and most importantly.. very poor ergonomics. 

However, the Russian airframe.. regardless of what it was manufactured of.. has always been rugged and built to take the weather. As an example, both the Mig-29 and Su-27 were equipped to take off from snowy or unprepared airfields full of FoD risk. By contrast, neither the F-15 or F-16 have the ability to operate out of unprepared strips. The only western country that built aircraft with that provision was perhaps sweden..and that too was a risk 

Yes, by contrast the western aircraft are built to a higher standard in terms of precision perhaps.. but that was years ago. Today's Russian equipment has come far ahead of what it used to be. It still suffers from certain hangover from the Soviet era.. but many private Russian firms have overcome it. As an e.g. there is a particular ELINT requirement for a platform in Pakistan that was met best by a Russian firm. it is another story that the equipment was reverse engineered locally on a war footing to avoid the Indian lobby getting wind of the rather sophisticated purchase. But the russians have come quite far. 

The Su-30SM purchase by Russia has less to do with the MKI purchase by India and more to do with the need to build up multirole fighter-bomber solutions. The Su-34 is compared to the F-15E but I see it as more of an analogue to the F-111. Sure it can perform greater tasks but it is focused more on Air to ground than a comparable F-15E. The rest of Russias fighters are air defence systems. The Su-24's are aging rapidly and just Su-34s cannot replace them all.



kaykay said:


> @orangzaib you logic about Induction of Su-30MKI in RuAF is very flawed. They already have Su-27s in large numbers(350+) on which Su-30 was based on. And still they ordered 60 Su-30SM aircrafts(MKI standard) last year and also they ordered Su-35 in small numbers too so does it make Su-35 a bad aircraft too just because they are inducting it in small number?
> Similarly consider that USA doesn't operate most advance variant(Block60) of F-16 but does it make Block60 inferior than Block50 or 52?
> PS: not saying MKI is most advanced flanker, su-35 would still beat it and only Super sukhoi will be close to or as good as Su-35.


I can see where the logic comes from, as the Su-27SM and Su-30SM are far apart when it comes to design intent and capability. 
moreover, the Su-30SMs may be serving as a stop gap order increase until the Russians have a more capable(suited for their needs) aircraft ready to more fully replace their attack fleet.


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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> OK... you had time to the post all this but not to answer simple questions.
> With 272 projected a/c's which is deployed 5 times the mirage 2K and Mig29's, flankers evaluation by IAF contradicts your claims. As far as RuAF is concerned, I am sure you do understand the events that have occurred in the three decades which have undermined their deployments. I hope that answers your question on SU30 deployments.
> And btw my first question wasj *not *on design of aircraft but design on airframe. As you are throwing design and manufacturing rhetoric all over, the reason why I asked the question was to point out that air frames are not designed for stealth, instead they are designed to Flexural rigidity and tensile strength on edgewise and flapwise configuration in static strain limits to mimic max G + 10% safety, and fatigue configuration to 1/2 of max G loading to million cycles at full amplitude and 350K cycles in 0.75 of Max G amplitude. In other words modern 4+ gen airframes profile design is not specific to any radar signature but purely to static and dynamic stresses .
> Now the stress loading on a airframe is designed based on the aerofoil of the structure.
> I haven't even found any instance where there was "high maintenance" required even on mig21 and Mig27 *Airframes*, on which i worked.
> Also it will help if could shed some light on "one dimensional computing" and it's relation to airframe design as you ignored it your reply.
> Btw Thanks for your career advise, but right now I am all set.
> 
> Next time just a simple coherent reply will do.
> 
> thanks



Here we go again, just like I predicted. This will go on. If I was to bring the chief engineer of the F-22 on here, you'd still question him nonsense all day long until he would get tired of it and would simply stop. 
"A simple reply would do?" Didn't you ask me to enlighten you on the process? Had you known the whole thing yourself instead of checking on me as to what I knew, that question would have been stupid to even ask for as its very detailed, no matter what you do. And here, you write three lines worth of crap and tell me I was talking manufacturing??? You sound like an airframe tech who has no idea what happens in an entire program. 
If my response was short, you'd then question my credibility that I didn't know enough.....sucks to argue with people who's brain waves change like their heart's EKG!

Flanker's "Evaluation" by IAF contractors means.....jack shi*t. These guys are paid and they want the deal done. You don't understand a thing man. Having an engineer background may make you smart in that, but that's all your focus is. You can't comprehend strategy. 
Yet you keep arguing without having that bigger background. When the contractors are chosen to "review", majority of the time (90%) in the case of Russia - India or China - Pakistan or Saudia-US or Israel - US cases, the product has been sold ALREADY at a much higher level. This is just to ensure the package is what it should be from capability's standpoint.

The fact remains, the Russians don't think too much of the SU-30. They in fact have upgraded their Mig 29's to SM standards and will keep them (which is a two gen lower air craft in my opinion). I will tell you this, the Russians WILL field SU-35 or the next one in LARGE numbers as they desperately need more top line fighters. Otherwise, their air power will be out of touch with the reality in less then half the week in case of a war with the NATO (conventional I might add). And that's against their new global power ambitions. So that's that for the SU-30. Nothing else will be added to this topic, take it or leave it.

Flexural rigidity and tensile strength and 350 Cycles stuff you put down, is JUST a small part of the process and its really airframe's strength static and dynamic. And I totally disagree with you that 4th gen has nothing to do with the Radar signature and its just static and dynamic stress that play a role. That was the 70's. You are still reading last generations technology. 

EVERY plane being designed now a days, as basic as the Chinese win engine trainer to JFT to F-16 Block 60+ or F-15 SE, etc, has a most critical need to reduce the cross section. There are literally teams that do Radar cross section analysis and actually the RCS reduction parameters NOW dictate the design change and the airframe profile. If people with your opinion are designing PakFa.....I could probably catch its signals with my CB Radio used for car emergencies.
Last, Russian planes are very high maintenance. If that's hard to swallow, ask anyone on here who's flown an SU-30 anywhere or other Russian products. The maintenance is getting better......but it is still way behind the Western world. Google it if you want. You'll find plenty of evidence. Why are you buying Rafale btw? Stick to the SU-30  ? Enough said !!

In fact, back to my basic argument, the Chinese are producing more maintenance friendly machines than the Russians. The Chinese industry is based on distributed computing versus mainframes (the BIGGEST difference between the US and Russians military industrial complex many decades ago when they set their foundation). THAT is WHY, the top technologies come out of the US as the US had made hi-tech computing cheap and cost effective for everyone to go innovate. 
The Russians wanted a mainframe based industry and didn't realize the way to go was distributed - PC computing. It is very visible in their design shapes too.
After this post, no matter how much your panties are on fire, I won't respond as it's become counter productive. I am not here to satisfy your personal or national opinion about how Indian products are so much superior to everything else. I am here to write the truth based on the knowledge that I have gained over a couple of decades.

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## Viper0011.

kaykay said:


> @orangzaib you logic about Induction of Su-30MKI in RuAF is very flawed. They already have Su-27s in large numbers(350+) on which Su-30 was based on. And still they ordered 60 Su-30SM aircrafts(MKI standard) last year and also they ordered Su-35 in small numbers too so does it make Su-35 a bad aircraft too just because they are inducting it in small number?
> Similarly consider that USA doesn't operate most advance variant(Block60) of F-16 but does it make Block60 inferior than Block50 or 52?
> PS: not saying MKI is most advanced flanker, su-35 would still beat it and only Super sukhoi will be close to or as good as Su-35.



I wish I was talking to you vs. the other dude. Your post sounds very reasonable and isn't filled with "how dare you call out a product we use rant". The fact is, 60 or 100 SU-30 order is peanuts for an air force that wants to project itself globally again (the Russian Empire) and they are in desperate need to fill the gap vs. the NATO with potent fighters. Frankly speaking, they'd rather use their Mig 29 SM's then getting more SU-30's. That's just the reality. It is a great plane but not for that theater. Its great for other countries like India, China, etc,etc. The Russians are smart, their eyes are on SU-35 or later blocks like SU-47 (may not remember the exact model, so sorry for that). These two will be inducted in large numbers. Watch the next few years as Russians try to rebuild their air units. Btw, the Su-27 and Su-30 may share similar air frames, but they are two different planes. Similarly, the SU-35 and onwards are totally different planes (that's also why the Russians screamed at the Chinese when they started to build SU-35 variants, otherwise, the Chinese had SU-27 air frames for decades, why scream now???).
The US case of the F-16 Block 52 vs. the most advanced block 60.....again what's the theater?? The US block 52 may look less advanced based on looks from Block 60 or more. But in fact, they are more advanced in many regards (AESA upgrade pending I know). The US uses highly sensitive technologies for its own fleet of aircraft that are never sold outside to anyone. Israel may be one exception to the rule. So a block 52 functionally is more advanced than a block 60 export version (with AESA being a small issue currently which is being upgraded right now). If the Block 60 was so much different in capability, the US would've added a few hundred and let the older block 40's go. That's not the case as what they are offering in exports for Block 60 export version .....was used by the USAF decades ago in its block 40 and then in B 52.


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## kaykay

@orangzaib Dude I understand what are you trying to say but Its more to do with requirements and doctorines of different airforces in light of their future plan. 
Russia is operating Su-27s from 80s and they can't Just throw it away and induct 400+ Su-30SM/35s(which came much later) when they already have plans for PAK-FA in near future. I mean its doesn't make any sense. They are buying few of Su-30SMs and 35s(around 150 combined) only for stop gap measure till PAK-FA is inducted to replace older Mig-29s and Su-27s.
Their future fleet will consist of Pak-Fa(250+), Upgraded Su-27SM(around 200), Su-35 (48 as Initial order, may be more in future), Su-30M/SM(100+) and along with few hundred ground attack Fighters like Su-34 etc.

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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> H. I am here to write the truth based on the knowledge that I have gained over a couple of decades.



I have agreements and disagreements with a lot of what you said... but you need to be absolutely certain of the Truth to call it that. 
five decades ago there was a "truth" that missiles and radars had made dogfights irrelevant. A truth that cost countless American lives until the mistakes were learnt. 

The Russians may have stuck to mainframe ideals but the end of the cold war brought in a lot of private firms that changed that thinking. Today's Russian tech in no longer the same. Nor should it be gauged in that regard.. just as Chinese tech today is no longer the same. What is important is understanding why certain equipment meets certain requirements of particular forces. Here, the doctrine of the force, the area to project/defend and budgetary constraints all pile up in the decision matrix.

The F-16 block-50 that flies in the USAF is quite different than the F-16 block-50 that the TuAF flies. In some places the TuAF has better systems on it.. but there are certain aspects that the US does not release to the Turks. Yet, that example cannot be taken as a comparision to the Su-30MKI and the SM. the Russians have a difference force mindset in mind as compared to India. However, the platform of the MKI may offer a certain complementary advantage to the RuAF to the Su-34.much akin to the F-15E did to the F-111 in the cold. war. 

RCS reduction is important.. after all a massive aircraft with canards and huge tails will stick out like a sore thumb. Sure it can have a huge jammer, but that will only help in detecting it and planning a move against it. But that is the force's requirement and what it wants. 
Perhaps the Russians are ok with a fighter with a massive RCS as their threat perception does not have it hopelessly outgunned.

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Here we go again, just like I predicted. This will go on. If I was to bring the chief engineer of the F-22 on here, you'd still question him nonsense all day long until he would get tired of it and would simply stop.
> "A simple reply would do?" Didn't you ask me to enlighten you on the process? Had you known the whole thing yourself instead of checking on me as to what I knew, that question would have been stupid to even ask for as its very detailed, no matter what you do. And here, you write three lines worth of crap and tell me I was talking manufacturing??? You sound like an airframe tech who has no idea what happens in an entire program.
> If my response was short, you'd then question my credibility that I didn't know enough.....sucks to argue with people who's brain waves change like their heart's EKG!
> 
> Flanker's "Evaluation" by IAF contractors means.....jack shi*t. These guys are paid and they want the deal done. You don't understand a thing man. Having an engineer background may make you smart in that, but that's all your focus is. You can't comprehend strategy.
> Yet you keep arguing without having that bigger background. When the contractors are chosen to "review", majority of the time (90%) in the case of Russia - India or China - Pakistan or Saudia-US or Israel - US cases, the product has been sold ALREADY at a much higher level. This is just to ensure the package is what it should be from capability's standpoint.
> 
> The fact remains, the Russians don't think too much of the SU-30. They in fact have upgraded their Mig 29's to SM standards and will keep them (which is a two gen lower air craft in my opinion). I will tell you this, the Russians WILL field SU-35 or the next one in LARGE numbers as they desperately need more top line fighters. Otherwise, their air power will be out of touch with the reality in less then half the week in case of a war with the NATO (conventional I might add). And that's against their new global power ambitions. So that's that for the SU-30. Nothing else will be added to this topic, take it or leave it.
> 
> Flexural rigidity and tensile strength and 350 Cycles stuff you put down, is JUST a small part of the process and its really airframe's strength static and dynamic. And I totally disagree with you that 4th gen has nothing to do with the Radar signature and its just static and dynamic stress that play a role. That was the 70's. You are still reading last generations technology.
> 
> EVERY plane being designed now a days, as basic as the Chinese win engine trainer to JFT to F-16 Block 60+ or F-15 SE, etc, has a most critical need to reduce the cross section. There are literally teams that do Radar cross section analysis and actually the RCS reduction parameters NOW dictate the design change and the airframe profile. If people with your opinion are designing PakFa.....I could probably catch its signals with my CB Radio used for car emergencies.
> 
> Last, Russian planes are very high maintenance. If that's hard to swallow, ask anyone on here who's flown an SU-30 anywhere or other Russian products. The maintenance is getting better......but it is still way behind the Western world. Google it if you want. You'll find plenty of evidence. Why are you buying Rafale btw? Stick to the SU-30  ? Enough said !!
> 
> In fact, back to my basic argument, the Chinese are producing more maintenance friendly machines than the Russians. The Chinese industry is based on distributed computing versus mainframes (the BIGGEST difference between the US and Russians military industrial complex many decades ago when they set their foundation). THAT is WHY, the top technologies come out of the US as the US had made hi-tech computing cheap and cost effective for everyone to go innovate.
> The Russians wanted a mainframe based industry and didn't realize the way to go was distributed - PC computing. It is very visible in their design shapes too.
> After this post, no matter how much your panties are on fire, I won't respond as it's become counter productive. I am not here to satisfy your personal or national opinion about how Indian products are so much superior to everything else. I am here to write the truth based on the knowledge that I have gained over a couple of decades.



Again all of this incoherent ranting has nothing to do with what you claimed and my counter questions....

It is quite visible from the tone of the post, whose clutching for straws.

Because of the erratic-ness of your rant, it is quite confusing to deconstruct and simplify the simple issue at hand.
but still let me give it a humble try:

First: I have never said Su30 is the greatest fighter in the world, you are free to visit other threads on the subject matter to know my position.

So let me clarify that my sequence of posts have nothing to do with me taking any offence if you try to belittle the MKI. The reason for me to post my comment was purely due the blanket statements that you offer in your posts, which have no justification such as implying that russians do not know how to design an airframe for a stealth aircraft, or PAKFA airframe is SU30 derivative, or Su30 air frame is high maintenance, especially when the Pressure and Aft Spar of the airframe for Su 30 is actually higher than the service life of the aircraft itself, same goes for the Mig21 and Mig27's....

My series of question were not to point at your lack of the design or manufacturing acumen but to highlight that you come up with this sweeping statements but do not offer any explanation behind the claims that you make. Like in this post you claim that my knowledge is limited to 70's with a counterclaim that *airframes* are designed to lower radar signatures. Please explain how, so even we can learn from your knowledge... (sharing wont diminish it)

Another example of this was your remark about "one dimensional computing" which if I am not mistaken refers to single array structures and I cannot find it's application in any airframe modelling or fem.

Finally if I could come back to your "jack $hit" retort where Indian Airforce Staff headquarters requirements seem insignificant to your understanding, I wonder why did US government submit F16 and F/A18 super hornet to the same entity for evaluation.

And me being a technician or a chief engineer has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just when you make overt claims, back them up. simple

Thanks

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> specially when the Pressure and Aft Spar of the airframe for Su 30 is actually higher than the service life of the aircraft itself, same goes for the Mig21 and Mig27's....
> 
> My series of question were not to point at your lack of the design or manufacturing acumen but to highlight that you come up with this sweeping statements but do not offer any explanation behind the claims that you make.
> 
> Like in this post you claim that my knowledge is limited to 70's with a counterclaim that *airframes* are designed to lower radar signatures. Please explain how, so even we can learn from your knowledge... (sharing wont diminish it)
> 
> Another example of this was your remark about "one dimensional computing" which if I am not mistaken refers to single array structures and I cannot find it's application in any airframe modelling or fem.
> 
> Finally if I could come back to your "jack $hit" retort where Indian Airforce Staff headquarters requirements seem insignificant to your understanding, I wonder why did US government submit F16 and F/A18 super hornet to the same entity for evaluation.
> 
> And me being a technician or a chief engineer has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just when you make overt claims, back them up. simple. Thanks



- I don't think i was specifically referring to SU-30's airframe maintenance extensive. It's about the entire plane, engine overhauls, etc are usually needed much earlier than Western engines. That's one of the reasons why you guys went for the GE engines in the first place for your own LCA. Plus, there is also a valid reason why the MKI has Israeli tech.....the manufacturer could provide that much higher tech in certain aspects. I can leave it at that as everyone knows the meaning behind it.
- My lack of knowledge or you being in denial? The later has to deal with psychology that we all see on these forums. No matter what Indian product comes into debate......
- If googling taught people how to design airframes then you'd see local shops next to your ice cream shops building airframes and planes. Go figure. One dimensional modeling used to be how planes would get designed under mainframe environment as they weren't able to process three-dimensional or five-dimensional (known as multi-dimensional) design, simulation and tests. Unlike trying to google it, I know precisely what I am talking about as I belong to the industry. Here is a good link as an example, see the application of multi-dimensional capability in works on engines: 
How Stanford's Million-Core, Five Dimensional Super Computer Will Silence Jet Engines 

- I don't think I ever said the staff requirements of anyone were insignificant. You don't want to understand how these deals work, so be it. The US will always submit bids to all the RFP's out there. It is called business. What they need to understand is that you won't buy from us. That whole "Strategic Partner B.S" only exist as long as the benefit goes to India, whether that's American jobs or anything else. You guys are climbing on American shoulders to go on the top of the world. People giving you that shoulder don't quite understand that you are doing so and there really is no "strategic partnership" between the US and India once you reach a certain level with economy. These guys who came up with the idea will sure be upset in the next decade or two. I can bet my money on it!



orangzaib said:


> - I don't think i was specifically referring to SU-30's airframe maintenance extensive. It's about the entire plane, engine overhauls, etc are usually needed much earlier than Western engines. That's one of the reasons why you guys went for the GE engines in the first place for your own LCA. Plus, there is also a valid reason why the MKI has Israeli tech.....the manufacturer could provide that much higher tech in certain aspects. I can leave it at that as everyone knows the meaning behind it.
> - My lack of knowledge or you being in denial? The later has to deal with psychology that we all see on these forums. No matter what Indian product comes into debate......
> - If googling taught people how to design airframes then you'd see local shops next to your ice cream shops building airframes and planes. Go figure. One dimensional modeling used to be how planes would get designed under mainframe environment as they weren't able to process three-dimensional or five-dimensional (known as multi-dimensional) design, simulation and tests. Unlike trying to google it, I know precisely what I am talking about as I belong to the industry. Here is a good link as an example, see the application of multi-dimensional capability in works on engines:
> How Stanford's Million-Core, Five Dimensional Super Computer Will Silence Jet Engines
> 
> - I don't think I ever said the staff requirements of anyone were insignificant. You don't want to understand how these deals work, so be it. The US will always submit bids to all the RFP's out there. It is called business. What they need to understand is that you won't buy from us. That whole "Strategic Partner B.S" only exist as long as the benefit goes to India, whether that's American jobs or anything else. You guys are climbing on American shoulders to go on the top of the world. People giving you that shoulder don't quite understand that you are doing so and there really is no "strategic partnership" between the US and India once you reach a certain level with economy. These guys who came up with the idea will sure be upset in the next decade or two. I can bet my money on it!





kaykay said:


> @orangzaib Dude I understand what are you trying to say but Its more to do with requirements and doctorines of different airforces in light of their future plan.
> Russia is operating Su-27s from 80s and they can't Just throw it away and induct 400+ Su-30SM/35s(which came much later) when they already have plans for PAK-FA in near future.



I am actually with you all the way. I don't think I have disagreements. The discussion (or argument at this point) started due to the fact that I am calling PakFa a derivative of the Russian SU-Family air frame. Second, I am also highlighting the fact that these airframes are hard to turn into Stealth and that the plane has stealthy features but not a true stealth like the Raptor. Then, another issue seems to be the fact that I called the Chinese weapons industry in a place where it is becoming more advance as they catch up as they've based their engineering and systems based on distributed super computing models vs. what the Russans did....which is using mainframes and they got left behind due to limitation. I know Russians produce good fighters, that wasn't the point. The points were the above. Then folks drag the topic in so many directions as they didn't like hearing these things.......I am actually with you and we are saying the same thing.

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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> I have agreements and disagreements with a lot of what you said... but you need to be absolutely certain of the Truth to call it that.
> five decades ago there was a "truth" that missiles and radars had made dogfights irrelevant. A truth that cost countless American lives until the mistakes were learnt.
> RCS reduction is important.. after all a massive aircraft with canards and huge tails will stick out like a sore thumb. Sure it can have a huge jammer, but that will only help in detecting it and planning a move against it. But that is the force's requirement and what it wants.
> Perhaps the Russians are ok with a fighter with a massive RCS as their threat perception does not have it hopelessly outgunned.


Oscar - I think we are both saying the same thing about the main topic. Go see my post above to KarKay's response. The other guy has blown this issue out of proportion and even I don't know what my past three posts have to do with the core issue that started this random firing of irrelevant questions...
- RCS reduction in 2010 era has become a major design issue. Everyone spends a lot of money in studying, adding and using certain composites and techniques to reduce the RCS. That's just the design process that's evolved over the years. The cardiac bypass isn't done the same way it was being done just ten years ago. Now you have even robots doing it. So these things go through evolution and new features become a must have.
- Last, you said "countless American lives were lost due to misconception about the dog fights", care to tell me where this happened, when and how many lives were lost? I disagree with this part of your post strongly as is. Would love to see references....


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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> - Last, you said "countless American lives were lost due to misconception about the dog fights", care to tell me where this happened, when and how many lives were lost? I disagree with this part of your post strongly as is. Would love to see references....



Something called the Vietnam war. RoEs aside, US aviators had been misinformed about the strength of the missile. Where do you think the Ault report and Red flag came out from?


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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> Something called the Vietnam war. RoEs aside, US aviators had been misinformed about the strength of the missile. Where do you think the Ault report and Red flag came out from?


Enlighten me on both of these. Where were the ' scores' of the American lives lost in combat? I thought I knew all the details but you brought something very knew. Give references too? Btw, the Top Gun and the Red Flags exist with other names in virtually every air force. The US ones are famous for their international participation and almost war like scenarios.


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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> Enlighten me on both of these. Where were the ' scores' of the American lives lost in combat? I thought I knew all the details but you brought something very knew. Give references too? Btw, the Top Gun and the Red Flags exist with other names in virtually every air force. The US ones are famous for their international participation and almost war like scenarios.


US Air-to-Air Losses in the Vietnam War

The Crucible of Vietnam



> The North Vietnamese Air Force (VPAF) had between 60 and 75 aircraft in service at most points during the war. Yet the MiG-17s, MiG-19s, and MiG-21s shot down 67 USAF aircraft against a loss of 137 of their own, leaving the US Air Force with barely a two-to-one exchange ratio over the course of the war.



67 aircraft lost in Air to Air combat..against only 137 brought down otherwise.. that is a kill ratio of 2:1. .pathetic considering the USAF was supposed to be a technological powerhouse. 

Poor weapons employment training, poor ACM practice. If you bothered to read through... the creation of the Navy Fighter weapons School.. or Top Gun as it was called came specifically after it was identified that not all fleet aviators were current weapons employment techniques nor in ACM. Sure there are plenty of such schools everywhere.. but I am referring specifically to the history of the USAF and USN schools. A little look at history would not go to waste.

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## MilSpec

Make up your Mind dude


orangzaib said:


> - I don't think i was specifically referring to SU-30's airframe maintenance extensive. It's about the entire plane, engine overhauls, etc are usually needed much earlier than Western engines.





orangzaib said:


> The SU's and overall Russian *airframes *and engines are *ALWAYS* known to be* extremely high maintenance*.







Now I am confused, i am I to believe that your earlier stated position of One dimesional computing which roughly translates into single dimension arrays or linear array in data structure is same as one dimensional modelling.
When you refer to reduced latency computing for predictive CFD, i can understand your position but how your relation between mainframes and single dimension arrays still confuses me. Now that you have thrown in another term One dimesional modelling, and that is how planes were designed, some disambiguation will indeed help.



orangzaib said:


> They aren't big on nano-tech. But VERY sharp with *one dimensional, older mainframe computing*. And it is visible in their designs.





orangzaib said:


> *One dimensional modeling* used to be how planes would get designed under mainframe environment as they weren't able to process three-dimensional or five-dimensional (known as multi-dimensional) design, simulation and tests







And more contradictions 



orangzaib said:


> - I don't think I ever said the staff requirements of anyone were insignificant. You don't want to understand how these deals work, so be it.





orangzaib said:


> Flanker's "Evaluation" by IAF contractors means.....jack shi*t. These guys are paid and they want the deal done.











orangzaib said:


> The US will always submit bids to all the RFP's out there. It is called business. What they need to understand is that you won't buy from us. That whole "Strategic Partner B.S" only exist as long as the benefit goes to India, whether that's American jobs or anything else. You guys are climbing on American shoulders to go on the top of the world. People giving you that shoulder don't quite understand that you are doing so and there really is no "strategic partnership" between the US and India once you reach a certain level with economy. These guys who came up with the idea will sure be upset in the next decade or two. I can bet my money on it!



cute

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## Viper0011.

Dude, Honestly and really? You STILL didn't get the point behind each of my statements. Yet, you took a few pieces out that are similar in nature but referred to DIFFERENT topics in different times and tried to show the world that I was just trying to bash the SU-30.
Just to clarify a few points, when I was talking about SU-30 airframes and engines and that the Russians products are high maintenance.....it was meant for the SU-30 as a WHOLE system or Russian products as an entire system. Not JUST the airframe. You took one thing and went with it. Tells me right away that you are technical. An engineer or something who follow a line. That's just how it is, sucks to be too smart at times as one doesn't get to leave the little bubble they live in.
How many times I've said above that designing a plane means a PROGRAM. It is a SYSTEM. Not airframe, not separate engines and avionics. All parts have to come and create synergy for the plane or the program or the system to work together. When I refer to an airframe or an engine in a point of time from a product's standpoint, I am referring to a system. This is a forum, not a technical specification session that everything is written out of algebra with code in it.

Now you did the same thing again on the subject of the IAF contractors. Contractor's evaluating something is different than the REQUIREMENTS to buy, create or build a plane. For example, I could be doing the work you gave me, and I will only tell you what you asked me to analyze. Beyond that, I don't care or its none of my business, either way. BUT, your requirements (in case the IAF), are something you know much better than I do. For example, suppose the IAF wanted a high speed interceptor - air superiority fighter for 75% of the price of the F-15 and at least with 75% of the capability of the F-15. These are now requirements. Now, they can go find contractors to evaluate 10 capable platforms. That's fine. But the contractors will just meet the criteria given.But then say the Indian Government gets a deal with Russia where they'd get SU-30 with tot or in-house manufacturing or other perks like further 20% price slash.....AND the SU-30 meets the requirements as defined above.......the contractors won't make the decision, they'll simply outline their details analyzed about the 10 products. The decision is made by the Indian Government (or whichever government has to make the call) based on many factors, relationships, price and future deals, etc, etc. As you can see....the REQUIREMENTS are a LOT different than the work contractors performed. I am not sure how clear I can be. I feel like I am arguing with a child who thinks he knows it all and is arguing with a professional. Going forward, you won't see a response from me. You can't get into an argument with a cardiac specialist and try to teach him cardiology.


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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> Dude, Honestly and really? You STILL didn't get the point behind each of my statements. Yet, you took a few pieces out that are similar in nature but referred to DIFFERENT topics in different times and tried to show the world that I was just trying to bash the SU-30.


Sure! readers can go through your post and evalaute exactly what you claim!




orangzaib said:


> Just to clarify a few points, when I was talking about SU-30 airframes and engines and that the Russians products are high maintenance.....it was meant for the SU-30 as a WHOLE system or Russian products as an entire system. Not JUST the airframe. You took one thing and went with it. Tells me right away that you are technical. An engineer or something who follow a line. That's just how it is, sucks to be too smart at times as one doesn't get to leave the little bubble they live in.


I called you out on air frame because you specifically quoted the air frame and engine to be high maintenance... Did you wonder why I did not say anything about Al31F? and I just emphasized the air frame... Because I know that is not true and I can absolutely refute such claim... instead of rectifying your claim on the airframe , you started generalizing your argument to the entire system. Now I am pretty sure, you were not part of the MKI or any HAL programs to claim the things that you claim like your contractor business that you floated which I will come to later. Instead you act pompous on being the oracle of aviation programs and everyone else to be merely a technician...



orangzaib said:


> How many times I've said above that designing a plane means a PROGRAM. It is a SYSTEM. Not airframe, not separate engines and avionics. All parts have to come and create synergy for the plane or the program or the system to work together. When I refer to an airframe or an engine in a point of time from a product's standpoint, I am referring to a system. This is a forum, not a technical specification session that everything is written out of algebra with code in it.


I beg your pardon, but your rhetoric seriously suggests that you struggle to understand the difference between components and systems and very often are obfuscating terminologies on a system and component level.



orangzaib said:


> Now you did the same thing again on the subject of the IAF contractors. Contractor's evaluating something is different than the REQUIREMENTS to buy, create or build a plane. For example, I could be doing the work you gave me, and I will only tell you what you asked me to analyze. Beyond that, I don't care or its none of my business, either way. BUT, your requirements (in case the IAF), are something you know much better than I do. For example, suppose the IAF wanted a high speed interceptor - air superiority fighter for 75% of the price of the F-15 and at least with 75% of the capability of the F-15. These are now requirements. Now, they can go find contractors to evaluate 10 capable platforms. That's fine. But the contractors will just meet the criteria given.But then say the Indian Government gets a deal with Russia where they'd get SU-30 with tot or in-house manufacturing or other perks like further 20% price slash.....AND the SU-30 meets the requirements as defined above.......the contractors won't make the decision, they'll simply outline their details analyzed about the 10 products. The decision is made by the Indian Government (or whichever government has to make the call) based on many factors, relationships, price and future deals, etc, etc. As you can see....the REQUIREMENT are a LOT different than the work contractors performed. I am not sure how clear I can be. I feel like I am arguing with a child who thinks he knows it all and is arguing with a professional. Going forward, you won't see a response from me. You can't get into an argument with a cardiac specialist and try to teach him cardiology.



Your this contractor dribble is complete bunkum because there are no contractors for IAF... You can try to satisfy your ego with all kind of claims of my lack of understanding of "system", the fact remains that there is no such thing as contractor of IAF who evaluate aircrafts, the evaluation of all RFP and joint developmental projects is done by engineering team from DGIFS and SME's from HAL DRDO, CRE/CRI. Oversight committee is formed of MoD and Aif Force Staff Hq and final approval is given based on the project by AOC M and AOC AS.

And as far as *argument* is concerned, there has been none....readers can read your posts and evaluate the professionalism that drips from the rhetoric.

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## fatman17

J-31
"Project 310 will most likely be exported to Pakistan. After that, it will have to battle against F-35, PAK-FA and Gripen-E in the Middle East, South East Asia, Brazil and South Africa. Its main advantages are its cost and available production slot, but China will have to move fast."


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> J-31
> "Project 310 will most likely be exported to Pakistan. After that, it will have to battle against F-35, PAK-FA and Gripen-E in the Middle East, South East Asia, Brazil and South Africa. Its main advantages are its cost and available production slot, but China will have to move fast."




Janes?


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## Viper0011.

@sandy_3126, @Oscar : Here we go. There is a thread open on this topic. Check out the SU-30's air worthiness. Back to my point about the Russian tech being loewer quality. I think we are done with this argument. You can question people who wrote this:

A shocking 50% of the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter fleet is on the ground due to unresolved servicing issues with the aircraft's Russian manufacturers. This has also eroded the combat capability of India's frontline long-range strike aircraft and compromised even that part of the fleet which is capable of being flown.

The IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) have rung the alarm bells about the repeated mid-flight failure of the Su-30 mission computer and the blanking out of all cockpit displays. The Russians have not responded to the repeated SOS' from the Indians for over a year.

These disclosures have been made in leaked communications between HAL and Russian agencies. These are in exclusive possession of The Sunday Guardian.

The managing director of HAL's Nasik complex, which is tasked with assembly and repair of the IAF Sukhois, has, in vain, desperately flagged "multiple cases of repeated failure of Mission Computer-1 and blanking out of Head Up Displays (HUD) and all Multi-Function Displays (MFD) in flight" with earmarked representatives of both Rosboronexport — the Russian government's arms export agency — and Irkut, the original manufacturer of the Sukhoi-30.

"As the displays blanking off is a serious and critical issue affecting the exploitation of aircraft (it) needs corrective action/remedial measures on priority," he pleads in a letter dated 28 February this year, reminding the Russians that he's been raising the issue since 7 March 2013 but to no avail.

Failures of the mission computer and cockpit displays are critical. The entire sortie is programmed on the mission computer, which is vital for managing requirements of aerial combat. The "blanking off" of cockpit displays distracts pilots and diverts attention away from the mission. The IAF is worried at the spearhead of its fighter fleet being hit by these nagging snags. The IAF has planned a Sukhoi-30 fleet of 272 aircraft, of which an estimated 200 have been delivered.

Air Marshal Denzil Keelor, one of IAF's most decorated fighter pilots, is dismayed. "In-flight failures such as the ones being reported render a fighter aircraft vulnerable. When a fighter is being flown below optimum capability, it becomes more vulnerable to an adversary. No aircraft should be flown unless it performing to 100% capability," he warns.

What seems even more worrying is the Russian go-slow, which has severely hit the maintenance and availability of the fleet. Even five years after the signing of contract for the setting up of Su-30 repair and overhaul facilities in India at HAL, there's no progress despite "agreements" and assurances even at the level of the Defence Ministers of the two countries.

"Due to non-availability of facilities for overhaul of aggregates (aircraft parts), the serviceability (availability for flying) of Su-30MKI is slowly decreasing and demand for Aircraft on Ground (AOG) items on the rise," HAL's Nasik division again pleads with Russia's Rosboronexport in a telling letter dated 24 December 2013. Even the revised deadlines committed the Russians to set up the repair-overhaul facility at HAL by December 2013, and overhaul the first aircraft by June 2014. This seems nowhere on the horizon.

Worse, Russia has put on hold the posting of its Sukhoi specialists to India for helping set up repair and maintenance capability. Documents available with The Sunday Guardian suggest that the two sides are haggling over price. This goes against an agreement that posting of Russian specialists would not be disrupted even if price negotiations were not concluded. In the absence of these specialists, HAL has been forced to fend on its own, as Aircraft on Ground (AOG) are piling up.

"Huge quantities of unserviceable aggregates (parts) are lying due for overhaul at various bases of IAF," HAL states, disclosing that the number of Su-30s being grounded for want of quick repair is increasing. The Russians have been informed that five Su-30MKI fighters are already parked at HAL for extensive overhaul, and another 15 will be due for overhaul in the current year. This number is equivalent to an entire squadron.

Lamenting the Russian delays, HAL expresses even more helplessness: "It appears that Rosboronexport and Irkut Corporation (the main parties to the contract) have limited control over other Russian companies (which provide vital parts like engines)." Supplies and deputation of specialists by other companies are even more erratic.

While warning that operating the fighters without conclusively sorting out the recurring snags could affect pilot confidence, Air Marshal P.S. Ahluwalia, who recently headed the IAF's Western Command, also questions the Ministry of Defence and HAL for the sorry state of affairs. "It's an issue of mismanagement of maintenance arrangements. The Ministry of Defence's Department of Defence Production is responsible. They have failed to resolve the problems," he says.

As the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Western Air Command, Air Marshal Ahluwalia did not hesitate to ground the MiG-29 fleet for three months after suspicions of its airworthiness arose following a crash. He flew the fleet again only after the maintenance issue was nailed.

Figures reveal how serious the problem of availability of the IAF's Su-30MKI fleet is. Against the Sukhoi figure of just 50% aircraft fit for operational flying, statistics reveal just how much ground is to be covered. The availability rates of the IAF's French-origin Mirage-2000 and even the Russian-origin MiG-29 is about 75%. As India quibbles with Russia over maintenance arrangements, the larger question is: What good is a weapon if it cannot be used?

Defence News - Russians go slow, Sukhoi fleet in trouble​

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## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> Your this contractor dribble is complete bunkum because there are no contractors for IAF... You can try to satisfy your ego with all kind of claims of my lack of understanding of "system", the fact remains that there is no such thing as contractor of IAF who evaluate aircrafts, the evaluation of all RFP and joint developmental projects is done by engineering team from DGIFS and SME's from HAL DRDO, CRE/CRI. Oversight committee is formed of MoD and Aif Force Staff Hq and final approval is given based on the project by AOC M and AOC AS.
> .


 
I just posted a post from another thread about your SU-30 (50% of the IAF force) going through issues. So that should give you some peace about my knowledge about the Russian tech. Next, from the above, YOU and I used the word contracrors and you went with it just as much as I did. Now you'd turn around and tell me there are inernal IAF employees doing the work? Fine. But how does it change anything? Whether contracrors or IAF or yoru BJP employees right, the point was, they CAN'T make a decision for the governemnt. They just evaluate and submit their reprots on 3 or 5 or 10 many contenders. The Indian Government makes the call on WHAT to BUY and from who....from within the contenders evaluated. That was the point. Whtether contractor or full time employees......don't make a difference. Let's not stupid argue like a child over a fact based sensible discussion where you are ignorng the most important facts

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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> 67 aircraft lost in Air to Air combat..against only 137 brought down otherwise.. that is a kill ratio of 2:1. .pathetic considering the USAF was supposed to be a technological powerhouse.
> 
> Poor weapons employment training, poor ACM practice. If you bothered to read through... the creation of the Navy Fighter weapons School.. or Top Gun as it was called came specifically after it was identified that not all fleet aviators were current weapons employment techniques nor in ACM. Sure there are plenty of such schools everywhere.. but I am referring specifically to the history of the USAF and USN schools. A little look at history would not go to waste.



Oscar - here we go. The following tells you all about the air to air losses. As you can see, not ALL top American jets were downed. The US was using low tech, older planes as well as F4's too. Unlike other people on here, I am not being egoistic about it as that's when you don't learn from your mistakes. But losses were high even with using older - low tech planes. The Mig was new and it was very agile compared to the American planes. This was what eventually gave birth to the F-16. The fighter weapons school and the facilities in Florida for Top Gun don't really train all pilots. They just train specific squadrons assigned to do interception roles. The idea behind that was to do simulation training as real as possible to pilots of heavier F-14's and F-15's. Later, the birth of F-16 changed a lot of it as it has been the most agile plane ever built and with entirely crazy unstable flight ability that makes it maneuverable like crazy. 
This Vietnam wasn't so much so poor anything from a pilot's standpoint, it was the low end tech vs. a highly versatile and agile jet that the Americans had no idea about. 
The F-4 or the older planes couldn't put a radar gun lock onto them Migs in every engagement as they were very maneuverable and fast. Plus, the radars and radar lock ranges were very short distanced back then. So you could only do so much. But as you can see, we learned from it.
The result was obvious even in some engagements by the F-86 against the Migs (even in India and Pakistan's scenario) , and later, this serious dog fight capability and agility was brought into the F-16. In real and close to real combat, the F-16's destroyed 69 targets without losing one. That's why it went sky high from a production's standpoint. 
Since then and even after 40 years, the ratio of any jet made by anyone dog fighting with the F-16 and actually winning is almost none to super low. Pilots dread dealing with the viper. Whether its Migs or SU's or the F-15's. That's just reality.

US Air-to-Air Losses in the Vietnam War

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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> Oscar - here we go. The following tells you all about the air to air losses. As you can see, not ALL top American jets were downed. The US was using low tech, older planes as well as F4's too. Unlike other people on here, I am not being egoistic about it as that's when you don't learn from your mistakes. But losses were high even with using older - low tech planes. The Mig was new and it was very agile compared to the American planes. This was eventually gave birth to the F-16. The fighter weapons school and the facilities in Florida for Top Gun don't really train all pilots. They just train specific squadrons assigned go interception roles. The idea behind that was to do similation training as real as possible to the heavier F-14's and F-15's. Later, the birth of F-16 changed a lot of it as it has been the most agile plane ever built and with entirely crazy unstable flight ability that makes it manueravble like crazy. This wasn't so much so poor anything, it was the tech and the training at that time. The F-4 or the older planes couldn't put a radar gun lock onto Migs as they were very manuerable and fast. Plus, the radars and radar lock sights were very short distanced. So you could only do so much. But as you can see, we learned from it and brought in the F-16. In real and close to real combat, the F-16's destroyed 69 targets without losing one. That's why it went sky high from a production standpoint. Even after 40 years, the ratio of any plane dog fighting with F-16 and actually winning is low. Pilots dread dealing with the viper. Whether its Migs or SU's or the F-15. That's reality.
> 
> US Air-to-Air Losses in the Vietnam War



If you look at the losses, it includes both low tech and high tech jets. Lost specifically bcause the aircrews were not prepared to fight the migs. The migs were more agile and manoeuvrable which was precisely the reason the schools of Top Gun were established to train key pilots who would later go on to teach their squadron what they had learnt. Yes the F-16 was brought in, but then it only proves my point. .. that the US made a mistake in relying too much on missiles and doctrine.. underestimated the enemy.. and suffered losses due to it.

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## rockstarIN

orangzaib said:


> @sandy_3126, @Oscar : Here we go. There is a thread open on this topic. Check out the SU-30's air worthiness. Back to my point about the Russian tech being loewer quality. I think we are done with this argument. You can question people who wrote this:
> 
> A shocking 50% of the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter fleet is on the ground due to unresolved servicing issues with the aircraft's Russian manufacturers. This has also eroded the combat capability of India's frontline long-range strike aircraft and compromised even that part of the fleet which is capable of being flown.
> 
> The IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) have rung the alarm bells about the repeated mid-flight failure of the Su-30 mission computer and the blanking out of all cockpit displays. The Russians have not responded to the repeated SOS' from the Indians for over a year.
> 
> These disclosures have been made in leaked communications between HAL and Russian agencies. These are in exclusive possession of The Sunday Guardian.
> 
> The managing director of HAL's Nasik complex, which is tasked with assembly and repair of the IAF Sukhois, has, in vain, desperately flagged "multiple cases of repeated failure of Mission Computer-1 and blanking out of Head Up Displays (HUD) and all Multi-Function Displays (MFD) in flight" with earmarked representatives of both Rosboronexport — the Russian government's arms export agency — and Irkut, the original manufacturer of the Sukhoi-30.
> 
> "As the displays blanking off is a serious and critical issue affecting the exploitation of aircraft (it) needs corrective action/remedial measures on priority," he pleads in a letter dated 28 February this year, reminding the Russians that he's been raising the issue since 7 March 2013 but to no avail.
> 
> Failures of the mission computer and cockpit displays are critical. The entire sortie is programmed on the mission computer, which is vital for managing requirements of aerial combat. The "blanking off" of cockpit displays distracts pilots and diverts attention away from the mission. The IAF is worried at the spearhead of its fighter fleet being hit by these nagging snags. The IAF has planned a Sukhoi-30 fleet of 272 aircraft, of which an estimated 200 have been delivered.
> 
> Air Marshal Denzil Keelor, one of IAF's most decorated fighter pilots, is dismayed. "In-flight failures such as the ones being reported render a fighter aircraft vulnerable. When a fighter is being flown below optimum capability, it becomes more vulnerable to an adversary. No aircraft should be flown unless it performing to 100% capability," he warns.
> 
> What seems even more worrying is the Russian go-slow, which has severely hit the maintenance and availability of the fleet. Even five years after the signing of contract for the setting up of Su-30 repair and overhaul facilities in India at HAL, there's no progress despite "agreements" and assurances even at the level of the Defence Ministers of the two countries.
> 
> "Due to non-availability of facilities for overhaul of aggregates (aircraft parts), the serviceability (availability for flying) of Su-30MKI is slowly decreasing and demand for Aircraft on Ground (AOG) items on the rise," HAL's Nasik division again pleads with Russia's Rosboronexport in a telling letter dated 24 December 2013. Even the revised deadlines committed the Russians to set up the repair-overhaul facility at HAL by December 2013, and overhaul the first aircraft by June 2014. This seems nowhere on the horizon.
> 
> Worse, Russia has put on hold the posting of its Sukhoi specialists to India for helping set up repair and maintenance capability. Documents available with The Sunday Guardian suggest that the two sides are haggling over price. This goes against an agreement that posting of Russian specialists would not be disrupted even if price negotiations were not concluded. In the absence of these specialists, HAL has been forced to fend on its own, as Aircraft on Ground (AOG) are piling up.
> 
> "Huge quantities of unserviceable aggregates (parts) are lying due for overhaul at various bases of IAF," HAL states, disclosing that the number of Su-30s being grounded for want of quick repair is increasing. The Russians have been informed that five Su-30MKI fighters are already parked at HAL for extensive overhaul, and another 15 will be due for overhaul in the current year. This number is equivalent to an entire squadron.
> 
> Lamenting the Russian delays, HAL expresses even more helplessness: "It appears that Rosboronexport and Irkut Corporation (the main parties to the contract) have limited control over other Russian companies (which provide vital parts like engines)." Supplies and deputation of specialists by other companies are even more erratic.
> 
> While warning that operating the fighters without conclusively sorting out the recurring snags could affect pilot confidence, Air Marshal P.S. Ahluwalia, who recently headed the IAF's Western Command, also questions the Ministry of Defence and HAL for the sorry state of affairs. "It's an issue of mismanagement of maintenance arrangements. The Ministry of Defence's Department of Defence Production is responsible. They have failed to resolve the problems," he says.
> 
> As the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Western Air Command, Air Marshal Ahluwalia did not hesitate to ground the MiG-29 fleet for three months after suspicions of its airworthiness arose following a crash. He flew the fleet again only after the maintenance issue was nailed.
> 
> Figures reveal how serious the problem of availability of the IAF's Su-30MKI fleet is. Against the Sukhoi figure of just 50% aircraft fit for operational flying, statistics reveal just how much ground is to be covered. The availability rates of the IAF's French-origin Mirage-2000 and even the Russian-origin MiG-29 is about 75%. As India quibbles with Russia over maintenance arrangements, the larger question is: What good is a weapon if it cannot be used?
> 
> Defence News - Russians go slow, Sukhoi fleet in trouble​


Again extremely amateurish report by a reputed news site and even by all pages stating 50% of the IAF’s Su-30MKI fleet remains grounded because of multiple cases of repeated failure of Mission Computer-1 and blanking out of Head Up Displays (HUD) and all Multi-Function Displays. This is not all true and let us separate truth from fiction.

Firstly, it must be noted that the malfunctions are not across-the-board or affecting the entire fleet of Su-30MKIs, but only a limited number. At most, therefore, no more than 40 Su-30MKIs will be affected by such avionics-related malfunctions. (Two batches are affected) This then brings us to the probable causes of such malfunctions. There is only ONE probable cause: faulty hardware most likely wiring harnesses or cable connectors. What has to be established is whether these items came directly from Russian OEMs (in which case product liabilities will those of Rosboronexport State Corp and IRKUT Corp) or were they sourced from India-based OEM-licensed vendors.

This can easily be done PROVIDED HAL has its in-house required set of item-specific test-benches and ATE equipment. As another option, HAL can also make use of ADA’s test-benches and ATE equipment, while DARE can be approached for replicating a fully-functional mock-up of the Su-30MKI’s cockpit avionics architecture—since DARE is presently involved with a similar task concerning the cockpits of the projected Super Su-30MKI.

Lastly, a word on the so-called combat aircraft fleet availability rates in peacetime. No air force in peacetime boasts of combat aircraft fleet availability rates of 75%. Such high rates are mandatory for only flying training aircraft like BTTs, AJTs and LIFTs. In reality, the availability rate of combat aircraft fleets hovers between 50% and 60%. If the national security scenario worsens over a period of time, then the availability rates are increased progressively as was the case with the IAF in both 1999 and 2002.


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## SQ8

rockstarIN said:


> Again extremely amateurish report by a reputed news site and even by all pages stating 50% of the IAF’s Su-30MKI fleet remains grounded because of multiple cases of repeated failure of Mission Computer-1 and blanking out of Head Up Displays (HUD) and all Multi-Function Displays. This is not all true and let us separate truth from fiction.
> 
> Firstly, it must be noted that the malfunctions are not across-the-board or affecting the entire fleet of Su-30MKIs, but only a limited number. At most, therefore, no more than 40 Su-30MKIs will be affected by such avionics-related malfunctions. (Two batches are affected) This then brings us to the probable causes of such malfunctions. There is only ONE probable cause: faulty hardware most likely wiring harnesses or cable connectors. What has to be established is whether these items came directly from Russian OEMs (in which case product liabilities will those of Rosboronexport State Corp and IRKUT Corp) or were they sourced from India-based OEM-licensed vendors.
> 
> This can easily be done PROVIDED HAL has its in-house required set of item-specific test-benches and ATE equipment. As another option, HAL can also make use of ADA’s test-benches and ATE equipment, while DARE can be approached for replicating a fully-functional mock-up of the Su-30MKI’s cockpit avionics architecture—since DARE is presently involved with a similar task concerning the cockpits of the projected Super Su-30MKI.
> 
> Lastly, a word on the so-called combat aircraft fleet availability rates in peacetime. No air force in peacetime boasts of combat aircraft fleet availability rates of 75%. Such high rates are mandatory for only flying training aircraft like BTTs, AJTs and LIFTs. In reality, the availability rate of combat aircraft fleets hovers between 50% and 60%. If the national security scenario worsens over a period of time, then the availability rates are increased progressively as was the case with the IAF in both 1999 and 2002.


But the news site did not carry the report, it was a supposed government memo.

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> But the news site did not carry the report, it was a supposed government memo.



Govt memo just shows the problem, but the news site saying it as it affected by whole MKI fleet and 50% is grounded.


> A shocking 50% of the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter fleet is on the ground due to unresolved servicing issues with the aircraft's Russian manufacturers. This has also eroded the combat capability of India's frontline long-range strike aircraft and compromised even that part of the fleet which is capable of being flown.


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## NKVD

rockstarIN said:


> Govt memo just shows the problem, but the news site saying it as it affected by whole MKI fleet and 50% is grounded.


govt memo only said about 10b and 11b configuration fighters means fighter produced Line year 2010 -2011.and general overhaul of fighters Problems are reported and hal monitoring actions i dont understand what is so Fuzz about it

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## rockstarIN

NKVD said:


> govt memo only said about 10b and 11b configuration fighters means fighter produced Line year 2010 -2011.and general overhaul of fighters


Yes, only one-two batches

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## SQ8

rockstarIN said:


> Govt memo just shows the problem, but the news site saying it as it affected by whole MKI fleet and 50% is grounded.


That is news site. Suggest one followes the government memo for reference to the problem.



NKVD said:


> govt memo only said about 10b and 11b configuration fighters means fighter produced Line year 2010 -2011.and general overhaul of fighters Problems are reported and hal monitoring actions i dont understand what is so Fuzz about it


How do you know 10b and 11b configuration mean 2010 and 2011.. and if they do.. how many aircraft were produced during that time. Also, please dont be hypocritical.. if this was about the JF-17 or F-16 you and your ilk would be making a bigger fuss out of it. So if I or anyone else makes a fuss.. you cant do jack to stop them about it.

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## MilSpec

orangzaib said:


> I just posted a post from another thread about your SU-30 (50% of the IAF force) going through issues. So that should give you some peace about my knowledge about the Russian tech. Next, from the above, *YOU* (nopes) and I used the word contracrors and you went with it just as much as I did. Now you'd turn around and tell me there are inernal IAF employees doing the work? Fine. But how does it change anything? Whether contracrors or IAF or yoru BJP employees right, the point was, they CAN'T make a decision for the governemnt. *They just evaluate and submit their reprots on 3 or 5 or 10 many contenders. The Indian Government makes the call on WHAT to BUY and from who*....from within the contenders evaluated. *That was the point. Whtether contractor or full time employees......don't make a difference*. Let's not stupid argue like a child over a fact based sensible discussion where you are ignorng the most important facts


Absolutely, such posts do highlight knowledge based discussions.... no argument there...



Oscar said:


> How do you know 10b and 11b configuration mean 2010 and 2011.. and if they do.. how many aircraft were produced during that time. Also, please dont be hypocritical.. if this was about the JF-17 or F-16 you and your ilk would be making a bigger fuss out of it. So if I or anyone else makes a fuss.. you cant do jack to stop them about it.



This is a comm loss issue from the adcs/mission comp to mfd. The issue is of grave concern but the way it's being spun is slightly out of proportion... Some of the fault lies here with HAL too, on occasion of first reported failure, they should have treated this as a quality escape and done the root cause analysis, but they want the russians to do it for them... I'll say that is the main issue here.

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## Irfan Baloch

sandy_3126 said:


> they should have treated this as a quality escape and done the root cause analysis,* but they want the russians to do it for them*... I'll say that is the main issue here.


seperated for over 60 years but still so much in common

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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> Absolutely, such posts do highlight knowledge based discussions.... no argument there...
> 
> 
> 
> This is a comm loss issue from the adcs/mission comp to mfd. The issue is of grave concern but the way it's being spun is slightly out of proportion... Some of the fault lies here with HAL too, on occasion of first reported failure, they should have treated this as a quality escape and done the root cause analysis, but they want the russians to do it for them... I'll say that is the main issue here.



Basically, they would rather save the effort.. typical desis.

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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Basically, they would rather save the effort.. typical desis.



couldn't agree more.... the attitude is for due diligence they expect a cookie....


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## NKVD

Oscar said:


> How do you know 10b and 11b configuration mean 2010 and 2011.. and if they do.. how many aircraft were produced during that time. Also, please dont be hypocritical.. if this was about the JF-17 or F-16 you and your ilk would be making a bigger fuss out of it. So if I or anyone else makes a fuss.. you cant do jack to stop them about it.



Yellow Journalism Yet Again : against Su-30MKI


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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> couldn't agree more.... the attitude is for due diligence they expect a cookie....


Reminds me of a particular issue with a Chinese system.. it could be tackled at home.. but then where was the fun not making Mr Yang(or Ying).. come over on a flight just to meet the boss over how his QC needed work.



NKVD said:


> Yellow Journalism Yet Again : against Su-30MKI


Your word only. Other voices should be heard.


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Reminds me of a particular issue with a Chinese system.. it could be tackled at home.. but then where was the fun not making Mr Yang(or Ying).. come over on a flight just to meet the boss over how his QC needed work.


Awacs?


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## Viper0011.

rockstarIN said:


> Again extremely amateurish report by a reputed news site and even by all pages stating 50% of the IAF’s Su-30MKI fleet remains grounded because of multiple cases of repeated failure of Mission Computer-1 and blanking out of Head Up Displays (HUD) and all Multi-Function Displays. This is not all true and let us separate truth from fiction.
> 
> Firstly, it must be noted that the malfunctions are not across-the-board or affecting the entire fleet of Su-30MKIs, but only a limited number. At most, therefore, no more than 40 Su-30MKIs will be affected by such avionics-related malfunctions. (Two batches are affected)



There was nothing amateurish about this. This just backed my up claim that the Russian technology is inferior in quality. The entire world knows it but since it is the SU-30 or the PakFa, of course, the Indian community would have an ego problem with that.
Let's see, per you ONLY 40 SU-30 planes would be effected. 40 like Four Zero. You think from a manufacturer's standpoint, isn't it low quality and bad press that SO MANY (total 40) planes are out of service or awaiting repairs at ONE given time? I don't want to get into another egoistic silly argument but this shows the quality right there. And I will NOT be responding to emotional and egoistic posts trying to change the reality. Some countries have air forces less than 150 aircraft total and even 20 planes out of service is a huge number at one time.


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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> If you look at the losses, it includes both low tech and high tech jets. Lost specifically bcause the aircrews were not prepared to fight the migs. . .. that the US made a mistake in relying too much on missiles and doctrine.. underestimated the enemy.. and suffered losses due to it.



Actually incorrect Oscar. Here is why. Underestimation is when I know what my enemy has but I don't estimate the quantity or seriousness of it. And I get in and get beat up. But then, there is the element of surprise, the unknown that the enemy has and I may have heard about it. But have never actually dealt with it. Now THAT was the issue. It was the capability or agility and higher speed thrust of the Migs. Frankly speaking, Migs in their high times, still couldn't take a better shot than the F-86. Ask any USAF (or even PAF pilot actually). The American technology was radar guided guns even then and still much better. Our pilots didn't know the agility of Migs. When we came to find out, the F-86's temporarily and the F-16's permanently fixed the gap. You also have to realize, initially, the USN was involved. Historically, the USN operates twin engine jets or single engine for recon, etc. So dealing with the one engine high agility wasn't a normal thing. It was really an element of surprise. The F-86's in short term dealt with the Migs JUST fine as they were used to the single engine. Later, the aggressor squadron of the USN always included single engine highly maneuverable fighters for training so that the element of surprise could be removed. The F-16 took that single engine element out like it never existed and it still rocks.


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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> Actually incorrect Oscar. Here is why. Underestimation is when I know what my enemy has but I don't estimate the quantity or seriousness of it. And I get in and get beat up. But then, there is the element of surprise, the unknown that the enemy has and I may have heard about it. But have never actually dealt with it. Now THAT was the issue. It was the capability or agility and higher speed thrust of the Migs. Frankly speaking, Migs in their high times, still couldn't take a better shot than the F-86. Ask any USAF (or even PAF pilot actually). The American technology was radar guided guns even then and still much better. Our pilots didn't know the agility of Migs. When we came to find out, the F-86's temporarily and the F-16's permanently fixed the gap. You also have to realize, initially, the USN was involved. Historically, the USN operates twin engine jets or single engine for recon, etc. So dealing with the one engine high agility wasn't a normal thing. It was really an element of surprise. The F-86's in short term dealt with the Migs JUST fine as they were used to the single engine. Later, the aggressor squadron of the USN always included single engine highly maneuverable fighters for training so that the element of surprise could be removed. The F-16 took that single engine element out like it never existed and it still rocks.



The US was aware of the Mig-21 much earlier.. and the other migs. What it did not suppose was the unreliability of its missile systems and the training of its pilots. I am still not sure how the F-86 or F-16 is relevant in terms of ACM training and tactics since the USN took the F-4 which was essentially not much of a turner against the Migs and came out on top with tactics.



sandy_3126 said:


> Awacs?


Nope.. something else.. but the point being that shifting the blame or task on someone else is a very desi habit...


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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> The US was aware of the Mig-21 much earlier.. and the other migs. What it did not suppose was the unreliability of its missile systems and the training of its pilots. I am still not sure how the F-86 or F-16 is relevant in terms of ACM training and tactics since the USN took the F-4 which was essentially not much of a turner against the Migs and came out on top with tactics.


 
Awareness and combat contact are two VERY different things Oscar. No matter how 'aware' one can be, the entire fligth profile is only observed when you encounter that specific jet. Back then, the first gen of AAM's have had misses and that's just technology being born and tested.
But overall, it was the element of surprise that went in Mig's advantage initially. As the US pilots learned more about how Mig operated, its problems and where it was best to engage at, the advantage in the SAME war went down significantly.

Top Gun or other training didn't just train already deployed pilots. These pilots were already on the front lines and they learned to handle these Migs later on. This is what I refer to as learning the hard way. However, since then, that 'one instance' of learning the hard way meant that the US familiarized and trained its pilots against all kinds of potential enemy systems. Take a look at the Top Gun and the Red Flag. The point behind the F-86 was that within a few years of the Vietnam deal, the knowledge about the Migs had matured that pilots flying F-86's were able to tackle the Mig 21 and the knowledge was transferred to partner nations too. I think the PAF had some success in that area too but I don't remember the details. And the Mig 21's rise was entirely demolished when the F-16 came into service.
So it was a two-tier approach, contain the threat first and then produce a much superior weapon system that takes the advantage away from the getgo.


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## notorious_eagle

sandy_3126 said:


> Awacs?



I see what you tried doing here


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## danger007

orangzaib said:


> There was nothing amateurish about this. This just backed my up claim that the Russian technology is inferior in quality. The entire world knows it but since it is the SU-30 or the PakFa, of course, the Indian community would have an ego problem with that.
> Let's see, per you ONLY 40 SU-30 planes would be effected. 40 like Four Zero. You think from a manufacturer's standpoint, isn't it low quality and bad press that SO MANY (total 40) planes are out of service or awaiting repairs at ONE given time? I don't want to get into another egoistic silly argument but this shows the quality right there. And I will NOT be responding to emotional and egoistic posts trying to change the reality. Some countries have air forces less than 150 aircraft total and even 20 planes out of service is a huge number at one time.


actually you had ego problem. .. Russians were not inferior. .. it just they don't have enough money for R n D... as well if they are inferior. .. why would china copy Russia's weapons... still china dependent on Russia's engine... you just don't want to accept the fact....


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## UKBengali

danger007 said:


> actually you had ego problem. .. Russians were not inferior. .. it just they don't have enough money for R n D... as well if they are inferior. .. why would china copy Russia's weapons... still china dependent on Russia's engine... you just don't want to accept the fact....



Dude, the production J-10B is now using WS-10A.

J-11B/J-16 also use WS-10A.

China will wean itself off Chinese engines over the next few years.


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## araz

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> What can I say for the bold part. As far as making guesses is concerned I prefer to base my guess on decades of aerospace experience and capabilities of concerned program. Unlike China, both USA and Russia have extensive R&D experience of stealth tech that dates back to 70s and both of them had stealth technology demonstration programs (USA: XST, HAve Blue etc. Mig sukhoi had their own) that did all the necessary ground work for future operational stealth fighters.


You are mainly repeating what I have said. Read my post in full.


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## fatman17

why r we discussing IAF SU-30's here???

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## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> actually you had ego problem. .. Russians were not inferior. .. it just they don't have enough money for R n D... as well if they are inferior. .. why would china copy Russia's weapons... still china dependent on Russia's engine... you just don't want to accept the fact....



I am sorry. Let's see how I was being an egoistic. Your post says "Russians were not inferior. .. it just they don't have enough money for R n D"......means due to lack of money for R&D, they couldn't produce quality products on par with the west. That is my point. That's a fact we all know about. How's that an ego issue if I state the fact? 
Japan builds (at this time at least) far superior cars to basic US manufacturers. That's because they've mastered the process engineering and six sigma type of process management techniques and have mastered them to limits. Resulting in producing much superior quality and affordable cars. That's a reality. How is that being egoistic?
The Chinese do CURRENTLY depend on the Russian engines. I am aware of that. The engine quality of the Russian engines is way behind the Western engine tech, (Otherwise for your HAL, it'd be a Russian engine. Not a GE engine  ). 
But the Chinese have a bunch of engine development programs in pipes. A few of them are about to be completed soon in the next a couple of years. As much as I don't like to admit it, they are using Western tech into these programs and once even a couple of these programs finish and their engines go into serial production, they'd literally jump leaps and bounds ahead compared to where the Russians are at after many decades of engine manufacturing. The Chinese military industrial complex' progression within the past two decades is amazing to say the least. I don't consider Russia a US enemy since the end of the cold war. Looking at the Chinese weapons programs and where they are headed towards ....China would become a competition in the next decade or two IMO. They still can't go head on with the US for the next three decades at the least for sure. 

Anyway, a fact is a fact. Don't twist it to ego. I am not from India and don't get into ego-testicle back and forth.

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## That Guy

fatman17 said:


> why r we discussing IAF SU-30's here???


People just like arguing.


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## Chak Bamu

Enjoy:

歼-31—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看


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## SSGcommandoPAK

tarrar said:


> F 16 & J 20. When J 20 will be inducted successfully in PLAAF then Pakistan will most probably buy them.


Yeah but that will take atleast 6 to 7 years


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## That Guy

YousufSSG said:


> Yeah but that will take atleast 6 to 7 years


The J20 will not be available for export to anyone, including Pakistan, at least not for the next 10-15 years.

Also, please don't revive old threads.


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## SSG commandos




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## tarrar

YousufSSG said:


> Yeah but that will take atleast 6 to 7 years



I think more.


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## Reichsmarschall

Irfan Baloch said:


> we already got JF-17 and J-10


Sir! where is j-10?? 4 years have been passed no signs of J-10


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## Neutron-Zone

Narendra Trump said:


> Sir! where is j-10?? 4 years have been passed no signs of J-10


Unfortunately there is no J-10 for Pakistan We Rejected it due to have similar capabilities with Thunder back in 2012.


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## Hassan Guy

too much sexyness in one pic


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## Zain Malik

Stop thinking about J-10.
Consider a 5th gen platform ASAP......!!!! There are some highly dangerous activities in our neighbourhood specially the induction of rafale and now they are looking for another induction.


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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

And what about the su-35 and su-37 double engines fighter planes deal with Russia?


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## I S I

GDP Adil Khan Niazi said:


> And what about the su-35 and su-37 double engines fighter planes deal with Russia?
> View attachment 342197
> View attachment 342200
> View attachment 342198
> View attachment 342199


Pese transfer karo account main abhi khareed leinge..


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## Erroroverload

I S I said:


> Pese transfer karo account main abhi khareed leinge..


abu g samjha hai kya usay jo paisay maang rahay ho


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## I S I

Z4ZOHAIB said:


> abu g samjha hai kya usay jo paisay maang rahay ho


Ideas are free. Implementation cost money.


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## Erroroverload

I S I said:


> Ideas are free. Implementation cost money.


what an uch vichar...


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## war&peace

Imran Khan said:


> why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?


Well said .....bang on the face of the so called experts

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## Zain Malik

war&peace said:


> Well said .....bang on the face of the so called experts


It is not but seems to be:

Aieen ki tarmeem k bad arkaane parliament ne faisla kiya hua k Pakistan kbhi b do engine wale tayare ni harade ga


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## GumNaam

Can someone explain to me WHY is having twin engine fighters is so important when a single engine fighter does the same job that a twin engine one does and a lot more efficiently while having a considerable lower IR signature? I accept in advance this maybe a stupid question due to the lack of my technical knowledge so don't hate.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GumNaam said:


> Can someone explain to me WHY is having twin engine fighters is so important when a single engine fighter does the same job that a twin engine one does and a lot more efficiently while having a considerable lower IR signature? I accept in advance this maybe a stupid question due to the lack of my technical knowledge so don't hate.


The PAF isn't hung on engines as much people seem to think. In the 1980s, most of the medium weight fighter options available were single engine (i.e. F-16 and M2K). So it was natural the PAF went with one of the two. This time around, all of the prospective next gen fighters are twin engine: FC-31, TFX, and KFX. In this sense, it is natural the PAF would go twin engine.


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## GumNaam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF isn't hung on engines as much people seem to think. In the 1980s, most of the medium weight fighter options available were single engine (i.e. F-16 and M2K). So it was natural the PAF went with one of the two. This time around, all of the prospective next gen fighters are twin engine: FC-31, TFX, and KFX. In this sense, it is natural the PAF would go twin engine.


Hmm, maybe Pakistan should produce a single engined alternative.

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## Ultima Thule

GumNaam said:


> Hmm, maybe Pakistan should produce a single engined alternative.


Pakistan industrial base not so strong that we should developed fighter jet from its own


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## Sheikh Rauf

After all this i think F-16 is best choice Pakistan sud buy even if they have to buy on cash. going with Turkey TFX is awesome venture plus open another joint venture with developing jf 17+.. like j 31 have two RD 93 engins ..
if we have to change frame with our requirment why not .. our engineers are capable plus Chines help.. its time to develope twin engine


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## Indo-Pak

Sheikh Rauf said:


> After all this i think F-16 is best choice Pakistan sud buy even if they have to buy on cash. going with Turkey TFX is awesome venture plus open another joint venture with developing jf 17+.. like j 31 have two RD 93 engins ..
> if we have to change frame with our requirment why not .. *our engineers are capable plus Chines help.. its time to develope twin engine*




Its too mush to ask from Pakistan..


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## barbarosa

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF isn't hung on engines as much people seem to think. In the 1980s, most of the medium weight fighter options available were single engine (i.e. F-16 and M2K). So it was natural the PAF went with one of the two. This time around, all of the prospective next gen fighters are twin engine: FC-31, TFX, and KFX. In this sense, it is natural the PAF would go twin engine.


Why PAF did not used twine engine fighter before, if PAF knew its importance in future? Why PAF become illiterate in this technology?


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## fitpOsitive

barbarosa said:


> PAF illiterate in this technology?


Sir yeh tu aap ziadti kerrahay hain. I have a full confidence that they know about twin engine technology much more than many nations who are actually using twin engine jets(Here I am not talking about India). PAF takes every move way too much calculated. So....dont know why. But about knowledge...no doubt. PAF is our proud.


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## barbarosa

fitpOsitive said:


> Sir yeh tu aap ziadti kerrahay hain. I have a full confidence that they know about twin engine technology much more than many nations who are actually using twin engine jets(Here I am not talking about India). PAF takes every move way too much calculated. So....dont know why. But about knowledge...no doubt. PAF is our proud.


We have never seen Twine engine fighters in PAF except F 6.


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## Sheikh Rauf

Indo-Pak said:


> Its too mush to ask from Pakistan..


 
PAF already involve with TFX.. building twin engine aircraft with help of china is not impossible RD 93 might get direct from Russia.. whats so impossible?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

barbarosa said:


> Why PAF did not used twine engine fighter before, if PAF knew its importance in future? Why PAF become illiterate in this technology?


The PAF will have not more difficulty adapting a twin-engine design such as the FC-31 or TFX.



GumNaam said:


> Hmm, maybe Pakistan should produce a single engined alternative.


For its next-generation fighter the PAF will not go it alone. If prospective partners are going twin-engine - e.g. FC-31 or TFX - then the PAF will go twin-engine. It needs partners to help with both R&D funding as well as scaling production (to distribute the R&D overhead and bring the cost closer to the cost of materials and labour).

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## Av8er

barbarosa said:


> We have never seen Twine engine fighters in PAF except F 6.


 
A-5 Fantan

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## Indo-Pak

Sheikh Rauf said:


> PAF already involve with TFX.. building twin engine aircraft with help of china is not impossible RD 93 might get direct from Russia.. whats so impossible?




Why China will help? If China help u to build fighetr plane, who will buy there's?? China will not help u in making single engine fighters, leave twin engine..

Same Happen with India, USA offered support, when LCA was move, they pull the carpet.. No one wants to loose customer dude. Its business, no one care for friendship.. China is communist nation, communists can deceive any one.


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## Peer Haman Shah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF will have not more difficulty adapting a twin-engine design such as the FC-31 or TFX.
> 
> 
> For its next-generation fighter the PAF will not go it alone. If prospective partners are going twin-engine - e.g. FC-31 or TFX - then the PAF will go twin-engine. It needs partners to help with both R&D funding as well as scaling production (to distribute the R&D overhead and bring the cost closer to the cost of materials and labour).


 I will not blame but with due respect, PAF was looking it's future with F16 only.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Peer Haman Shah said:


> I will not blame but with due respect, PAF was looking it's future with F16 only.


Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman had an interview with PTV a few months ago where he had openly discussed the PAF's work in pursuing a next-generation fighter. The F-16 is/was a short-term objective to help phase out the F-7s and Mirages, but another fighter is being chalked out as we speak to replace the F-16.

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## Zain Malik

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman had an interview with PTV a few months ago where he had openly discussed the PAF's work in pursuing a next-generation fighter. The F-16 is/was a short-term objective to help phase out the F-7s and Mirages, but another fighter is being chalked out as we speak to replace the F-16.


What exactly wee need to know is that will Pakistan go for a 4++ gen aircraft....??
Nothing Else.... @Quwa ... Research partner what have you figured out ...??? No analysis ...??
if the answer is no then stop creating threads on J-10B and Su-35...Wait till 2k28....!!!!

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## Ultima Thule

Zain Malik said:


> What exactly wee need to know is that will Pakistan go for a 4++ gen aircraft....??
> Nothing Else.... @Quwa ... Research partner what have you figured out ...??? No analysis ...??
> if the answer is no then stop creating threads on J-10B and Su-35...Wait till 2k28....!!!!


bro i think they go directly to the 5th generation jet skipping 4++ gen jet, just my opinion

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## Neutron-Zone

Zain Malik said:


> What exactly wee need to know is that will Pakistan go for a 4++ gen aircraft....??
> Nothing Else.... @Quwa ... Research partner what have you figured out ...??? No analysis ...??
> if the answer is no then stop creating threads on J-10B and Su-35...Wait till 2k28....!!!!


with present conditions it is seemed that there will be no 4 gen fighter but 2028 is long way go till then india will induct rafales and may be more


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## barbarosa

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman had an interview with PTV a few months ago where he had openly discussed the PAF's work in pursuing a next-generation fighter. The F-16 is/was a short-term objective to help phase out the F-7s and Mirages, but another fighter is being chalked out as we speak to replace the F-16.


 A long period of waiting, the war is over head.


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## Sheikh Rauf

Indo-Pak said:


> Why China will help? If China help u to build fighetr plane, who will buy there's?? China will not help u in making single engine fighters, leave twin engine..
> 
> Same Happen with India, USA offered support, when LCA was move, they pull the carpet.. No one wants to loose customer dude. Its business, no one care for friendship.. China is communist nation, communists can deceive any one.



buddy i am not asking them to help us scratch .... they have the facilities i am pretty sure Pak can do it if there is a will but its time consuming.. 
And judging them with commnism i dont know what to say only indian can do that.. there are good and bad everyone you dont judge anyone by their bad ones when it comes to india i am sure you want world to know that your nation stands on their words. they have been standing with us from 60 years so maybe india needs to find better friend.
anyways i am sure twin engine fighter jet is not somthing impossible Pak needs to work on it. 2 RD-93 seems pretty cool with 2 mach speed  1.8 would be fine cruising on sea.


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## volatile

For me rationally states
A. An aeroplane which we can overhaul and build by our selves.
B. What type of capacity building is requiree to make an aeroplane fly worthy and available .

E.G recently if some one sees PAC video it probably gives you an idea what PAF wants n which platforms can be well suited .Engine overhauling facility does make Mirages to go beyond 10 times of there operational life .Similarly recent interest for setting up RD93 facility gives you a hint . RD 93 is used in MIG35 as well as J31 and JF17 .Similalry if J10 is opted it uses WS/AL series engine which is similar to SU35 and J20 so lets see .


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## Hassan Guy

GDP Adil Khan Niazi said:


> And what about the su-35 and su-37 double engines fighter planes deal with Russia?
> View attachment 342197
> View attachment 342200
> View attachment 342198
> View attachment 342199


not a bad choice



GumNaam said:


> Hmm, maybe Pakistan should produce a single engined alternative.


good idea, but we would need help from China or Turkey.....maybe Russia


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## eldamar

pakistanipower said:


> bro i think they go directly to the 5th generation jet skipping 4++ gen jet, just my opinion



the block 3 jf-17 is a 4.5 generation- provided it indeed comes with the WS-17 and AESA radar

PK should look at getting ground-attack striking aircrafts instead


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## Zain Malik

Hassan Guy said:


> not a bad choice
> 
> 
> good idea, but we would need help from China or Turkey.....maybe Russia


Can I plz request you to come back in the world of reality...???

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## Hassan Guy

Zain Malik said:


> Can I plz request you to come back in the world of reality...???


Pak can't make on it's own, it would need foreign help


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## Zain Malik

Hassan Guy said:


> Pak can't make on it's own, it would need foreign help


Can u elaborate why PAK can't made its own...!!!


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## royalharris

Indo-Pak said:


> Why China will help? If China help u to build fighetr plane, who will buy there's?? China will not help u in making single engine fighters, leave twin engine..
> 
> Same Happen with India, USA offered support, when LCA was move, they pull the carpet.. No one wants to loose customer dude. Its business, no one care for friendship.. China is communist nation, communists can deceive any one.


Relationship between countries is based on the mixture of bussiness and friendship,friendship weight more than bussiness especially for Chinese.If just consider bussiness, china can get much more from the cooperation with India than Pakistan.
A lot of west media suggest china that Pakistan is more like a burden to us,but China never buy it.we are communist country,yes. But never abandon you like your old democracy ally USA.
Next time,just shut up with your silly idea.

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## Hassan Guy

Zain Malik said:


> Can u elaborate why PAK can't made its own...!!!


5th gen fighter is more complicated


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## Zain Malik

Hassan Guy said:


> 5th gen fighter is more complicated


Pakistan made Thunder when 4th generation was complicated..
5th gen is not a big deal...!!


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## danger007

Zain Malik said:


> Pakistan made Thunder when 4th generation was complicated..
> 5th gen is not a big deal...!!




5th Generation is more complex than the 4th.. don't buy silly assumptions.


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## Hassan Guy

Zain Malik said:


> Pakistan made Thunder when 4th generation was complicated..
> 5th gen is not a big deal...!!


right, but we had help which is what we will need


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## Indo-Pak

Zain Malik said:


> Pakistan *made Thunder *when 4th generation was complicated..
> 5th gen is not a big deal...!!




U mean to say "Fabricated" or "assemble"??


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## Imad.Khan

Indo-Pak said:


> U mean to say "Fabricated" or "assemble"??



why is your butt on fire?


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## Indo-Pak

royalharris said:


> Relationship between countries is based on the mixture of bussiness and friendship,*friendship weight more than bussiness especially for Chinese*.If just consider bussiness, china can get much more from the cooperation with India than Pakistan.
> A lot of west media suggest china that Pakistan is more like a burden to us,but China never buy it.we are communist country,yes. But never abandon you like your old democracy ally USA.
> Next time,just shut up with your silly idea.




In International relation there is nothing called friendship or Ummah, its just mutual benefit..

How China is benefited by Pakistan:
1. CPEC: CPEC is big ticket for China, Pak has very small benefit from CPEC..



Imad.Khan said:


> why is your butt on fire?




Thank you sir... U better ask Senior Pakistani member they will say how difficult to make 5th gen fighters...


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## Zain Malik

Indo-Pak said:


> Thank you sir... U better ask Senior Pakistani member they will say how difficult to make 5th gen fighters...


Like you have designed and inducted a large fleet of 5th gen aircraft... We will do it....
Try to lift up your tejas or sell the blueprints to KABARIYA...



Indo-Pak said:


> How China is benefited by Pakistan:
> 1. CPEC: CPEC is big ticket for China, Pak has very small benefit from CPEC..


Assumptions and wishes.....


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## Imad.Khan

Indo-Pak said:


> In International relation there is nothing called friendship or Ummah, its just mutual benefit..
> 
> How China is benefited by Pakistan:
> 1. CPEC: CPEC is big ticket for China, Pak has very small benefit from CPEC..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you sir... U better ask Senior Pakistani member they will say how difficult to make 5th gen fighters...




Can you please share the info regarding CPEC that brought you to the conclusion that it has little benefit for Pakistan 

As for fighter jets no one said its easy thats why a collaboration with a 3rd country is required and given that we had a favourable result with the Chinese in our last project, then that is another venue that can be looked at.


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## Habibullah Khan

You have to understand even China is buying the 4++ generation SU35's from Russia because certain aspects of it they have not perfected. It is believed by the US that high end nation state hacking was behind F-35 development data being stolen for this same reason, and the result will be shown in indigenous engines that will power the J series 2020 onwards.

Pakistan however has to embark on this same journey as China where they use what help they are given to keep becoming better and better and the penetration of their own efforts vs help steadily increases.


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## SBD-3

Imad.Khan said:


> Can you please share the info regarding CPEC that brought you to the conclusion that it has little benefit for Pakistan
> 
> As for fighter jets no one said its easy thats why a collaboration with a 3rd country is required and given that we had a favourable result with the Chinese in our last project, then that is another venue that can be looked at.


CPEC has the same strategic importance for China as once the Wall of China. The wall of China kept invaders and threats out of China in ancient times. Now CPEC will serve the same. As with CPEC in action, China will be able to completely bypass the straits of Malaka and Indian Ocean means almost zero trade route blackmail from India,Twian,US,Philippines and Japan. CPEC in action would follow by an aggressive Chinese policy in South China sea and towards Tiwan,India, Japan and Philippines. Pakistan's stake in CPEC is not even 1% to the nature of Chinese stake.


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## Indo-Pak

SBD-3 said:


> CPEC has the same strategic importance for China as once the Wall of China. The wall of China kept invaders and threats out of China in ancient times. Now CPEC will serve the same. As with CPEC in action, China will be able to completely bypass the straits of Malaka and Indian Ocean means almost *zero trade route blackmail from India,Twian,US,Philippines and Japan*. CPEC in action would follow by an aggressive Chinese policy in South China sea and towards Tiwan,India, Japan and Philippines. Pakistan's stake in CPEC is not even 1% to the nature of Chinese stake.




India never blackmailed China , however CPEC is different issue, I will discusss tht in CPEC thread... Pakistan has access to only Chinese 5th Gen fighter..

Russia will not sell there 5ht gen fighrt to Pakistan neither USA.. 

Development by Pakistan : not possible, Pakistan can't develop or make 5th gen fighter even aftr collabration with US/China. No country will allow to share the 5th gen tech to some buyer.. Pakistan is not co-developer of J31..


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## SBD-3

Indo-Pak said:


> India never blackmailed China , however CPEC is different issue, I will discusss tht in CPEC thread... Pakistan has access to only Chinese 5th Gen fighter..
> 
> Russia will not sell there 5ht gen fighrt to Pakistan neither USA..
> 
> Development by Pakistan : not possible, Pakistan can't develop or make 5th gen fighter even aftr collabration with US/China. No country will allow to share the 5th gen tech to some buyer.. Pakistan is not co-developer of J31..


Its not about India actually blackmailing but rather the vulnerability of Chinese to any possible trade blockade.


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## Indo-Pak

SBD-3 said:


> Its not about India actually blackmailing but rather the vulnerability of Chinese to any possible trade blockade.




Blocking Pakistani sea is easier than blocking Malacca... It is stupid argument.. 

The correct Argument is China can save days and money if he route its western Chinies products via Gawadar...


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## SBD-3

Indo-Pak said:


> *Blocking Pakistani sea is easier than blocking Malacca*... It is stupid argument..
> 
> The correct Argument is China can save days and money if he route its western Chinies products via Gawadar...


Is it? Well I'd love to see Indians trying to enforce a blockage in an area geographically disconnected to their land. In fact I would love to see India trying a naval blockade of Gawadar

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## Indo-Pak

SBD-3 said:


> Is it? Well I'd love to see Indians trying to enforce a blockage in an area geographically disconnected to their land. In fact I would love to see India trying a naval blockade of Gawadar




That is still off topic..


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## royalharris

SBD-3 said:


> CPEC has the same strategic importance for China as once the Wall of China. The wall of China kept invaders and threats out of China in ancient times. Now CPEC will serve the same. As with CPEC in action, China will be able to completely bypass the straits of Malaka and Indian Ocean means almost zero trade route blackmail from India,Twian,US,Philippines and Japan. CPEC in action would follow by an aggressive Chinese policy in South China sea and towards Tiwan,India, Japan and Philippines. Pakistan's stake in CPEC is not even 1% to the nature of Chinese stake.


Surely, CPEC can benefit both china and pakistan.
Without benefit， will china build CPEC？ without benefit， will pakistan cooperate china with CPEC?
But why pakistan, it is mutual benefit and mutual belief.
For energy, china develop green energy, and green energy take more and more share
For oil , we have strategic cooperation with russia, south america country, and also ME.
For oil input from ME, to diversify the danger, we bulid CPEC, CPEC can also bring pakistan with ecnomy boost.
Clever people should have a grateful heart, have a higher and longer sight.
The most silly people always think they are clever than most of the other people. they are be greedy of gain without limitation, at last, everything will be f;;uked up.

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