# Pakistan Navy Questions Thread



## Myth_buster_1

Milgem will be equiped with 76 mm 76 SR Oto Melara. 

Just wanted to know if the gun could be modified for OtoMelara Dart Strales
rounds, or is it already fit for this porpose? this will solve the corvette's CIWS problem and will be very effective in providing protection to its pact "sorry dont know the term".


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## Tomahawk

PC said:


> Milgem will be equiped with 76 mm 76 SR Oto Melara.
> 
> Just wanted to know if the gun could be modified for OtoMelara Dart Strales
> rounds, or is it already fit for this porpose? this will solve the corvette's CIWS problem and will be very effective in providing protection to its pact "sorry dont know the term".



*The 76/62 SR Naval Gun Mount is compatible for operating the new 3AP Multifunction Programmable Ammunition as well as the DART guided ammunition.*

Strales is a very good system. It is conceived as an add-on kit that can be integrated into the already in service 76/62 gun mounts. Moreover it is designed to be compatible with any existing Combat Management System.
Basically Strales System has three main components:

1) A 76/62 Naval Gun
2) DART Precision Guided Ammunition
3) A Radio Frequency Guidance System with Associated Electronics

For details, Technical Specifications of 76/62 SR and Strales are attached.

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## Myth_buster_1

Tomahawk said:


> *The 76/62 SR Naval Gun Mount is compatible for operating the new 3AP Multifunction Programmable Ammunition as well as the DART guided ammunition.*
> 
> Srales is a very good system. It is conceived as an add-on kit that can be integrated into already in service 76/62 gun mounts. Moreover it is designed to be compatible with any existing Combat Management System.
> Basically Strales System has three main components:
> 
> 1) A 76/62 Naval Gun
> 2) DART Precision Guided Ammunition
> 3) A Radio Frequency Guidance System with Associated Electronics
> 
> For details, Technical Specifications of 76/62 SR and Strales are attached.



oh thank you very much for the reply,but i want to find out if both pakistan and turkey are considering this feature.


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## was

did we aquired agosta TOT to build only three boats?????


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## Patriot

Hi guys,
Do we have some sort of Navy Aviation arm now?Or some Squadrons are tasked to help Navy during war?


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## showstopper

saadahmed said:


> Hi guys,
> Do we have some sort of Navy Aviation arm now?Or some Squadrons are tasked to help Navy during war?



yeah i've been wondering the same thing. right now all the navy has is 12 aging mirage 5's. given the trend towards a large number of navy dedicated, navy operated aircraft, i wonder if some planes are headed the pn's way.

edit: actually, they've got the p-3 orion too.

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## Hyde

i wanted to know when will we be able to manufacture our own indegenious submarine?

is it possible we can make Agosta 90B type submarine in near future? if not 100&#37; original then something like 60-80% indegenious?

if not then what do u think after we procure U214? since all those submarines are going to be built in Pakistan then is it not possible we can develop owr own indeginous submarine after the experience we accumulated from agosta's and u214 type submarines


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## Blackpearl

saadahmed said:


> Hi guys,
> Do we have some sort of Navy Aviation arm now?Or some Squadrons are tasked to help Navy during war?



Navy has helicopters and turboprop aircarft. the list is as
*Turboprop aircarft*
1. Atlantiques (anti sub warfare)
2. Fokker F27
3. P-3C Orion

*Helicopters*
Allouette III
Westland Sea king
Lynx
Z-9C (Chineese)

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## sajidkhan

is our navy have any plans to buy any aircraft carrier similar to the ins viraat?


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## Interceptor

Patriot said:


> Hi guys,
> Do we have some sort of Navy Aviation arm now?Or some Squadrons are tasked to help Navy during war?



PN has its own aviation wing, 

*Surveillance Aircraft;*
P-3C Orion
Breguet Atlantic 1

*Rotary Aircraft;*
Lynx
Alouette 3
Sea King
Z-9C

It also has in its innovatory PAF's Mirage V a endurance bomber armed with Exocet. Plus the frigates are fully armed to the teeth with Harpoons recently acquired so the PN has enough to give a befitting response to any misadventures.


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## jalip

can pakistan really built agosta 90 with out french engineers help i know we have to import lot of stuff but can we really assemble by our own and any plan of building more subs (agosta 90) in near future


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## Nutuk

Mr X said:


> i wanted to know when will we be able to manufacture our own indegenious submarine?
> 
> is it possible we can make Agosta 90B type submarine in near future? if not 100% original then something like 60-80% indegenious?
> 
> if not then what do u think after we procure U214? since all those submarines are going to be built in Pakistan then is it not possible we can develop owr own indeginous submarine after the experience we accumulated from agosta's and u214 type submarines



I'm afraid the answer is no!
Look just by assembling under license one doesn't get the ability to design a ship with hundreds of subsystems. In the 80'ties Turkey thought the same to acquire knowhow by assembling Meko frigates, but the hard reality was we did not. The milgem corvette is the first serious attempt to build an indigenous large military ship and even on the Milgem we have only 60% of the subsystems indigenous (which in years will become more ofcourse). 

To build indigenous ships one should not only master shipbuilding but also have a strong industry capable of engineering all kinds of needed subsystems. Pakistan needs to industrialize a lot to achieve real indigenous submarines.


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## jalip

pakistan is getting Oliver perry class frigate in 2010 are we getting any more mean some sources says that pakistan wants 6 of them


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## SEAL

P3C and P-8i are comparable aircrafts or not??
can P-8i fire harpoons missiles???


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## razgriz19

fox said:


> P3C and P-8i are comparable aircrafts or not??
> can P-8i fire harpoons missiles???



yes, they r capable of firing harpoon, and INDIA is getting those aircrafts


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## S.U.R.B.

will PN get the antiaircraft missiles with the u214 subs which germans have tested on u212 successfully?


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## Defender.pk

This will improve naval defence capability and replacement of mirage-5s . also comment on integration of exocet am-39 and harpoon on JF-17


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## Defender.pk

in 1985 daphnie class subs were modified to use harpoon block-1 missile and PN was the first asian navy to use submarine launched missile . now daphine class are de commisioned in 2006 . so we lose the capabilty of launching harpoon from subs. as agosta 90 b have only exocet sm-39 which range is less than harpoon.

so how we can now use submarine launched harpoons which we got .


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## dudah

Defender.pk said:


> in 1985 daphnie class subs were modified to use harpoon block-1 missile and PN was the first asian navy to use submarine launched missile . now daphine class are de commisioned in 2006 . so we lose the capabilty of launching harpoon from subs. as agosta 90 b have only exocet sm-39 which range is less than harpoon.
> 
> so how we can now use submarine launched harpoons which we got .



Nothing is impossible!


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## Penguin

Defender.pk said:


> in 1985 daphnie class subs were modified to use harpoon block-1 missile and PN was the first asian navy to use submarine launched missile . now daphine class are de commisioned in 2006 . so we lose the capabilty of launching harpoon from subs. as agosta 90 b have only exocet sm-39 which range is less than harpoon.
> 
> so how we can now use submarine launched harpoons which we got .



Exocet missile guidance: "fire and forget", consisiting of inertial navigation during cruise phase and active radar homing during terminal phase

So, target range and bearing data is downloaded into the Exocet's computer. The missile is then launched and approaches the target area in sea-skimming mode using inertial navigation and then switches to active radar homing for the end run.

I'm fairly sure the procedure would be similar for Harpoon and C802. But you'ld need the Encapsulated Harpoon command launch module for Harpoon in order to be able to provide initial target data to the missile and program its flight pattern. Surely something similar is required for C802. 

PN got 5 such command launch modules for the 3 Daphne's and 2 initial Agosta's IIRC. So, 3 modules could be taken from the Daphnes for use in the Agosta 90b, though I don't know whether this would affect the Exocet capability.



> For submarine launches, UGM-84 Harpoon is enclosed in a capsule. When launched from the torpedo tube, stabilising fins unfold to establish the proper glide angle for broaching the water's surface. A sensor then initiates release of the capsule nose and tail sections, followed by ignition of the missile boost motor. At the same time the missile exits the capsule, wings and fins unfold, and Harpoon is propelled into a flight trajectory similar to that of the surface launches. Submarines fitted with Mk 113 fire-control systems use a separate Encapsulated Harpoon Command and Launch Systems (EHCLS), whilst those with the Mk 117 fire-control system have the Harpoon weapon integrated.


Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info



> May 31/06: The Defense Security Cooperation Agency officially announces [PDF] Pakistan&#8217;s request to buy 50 UGM-84L (submarine-launched), 50 RGM-84L (surface-launched), and 30 AGM-84L (air-launched) Block II Harpoon missiles; _5 Encapsulated Harpoon Command Launch Systems_; 115 containers; missile modifications; training devices; spare and repair parts; technical support; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; technical data and publications; U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $370 million.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Pakistans-P-3-Orions-05972/



> All of the Pakistani SSKs have been equipped with AshMs which can be fired while submerged. The three Khalid class boats are capable of firing Exocet AshM, while the older Agostas and Daphnes have been equipped with US Harpoon AshMs. PNS/M Hamza (third Agosta-90B) is equipped with the MESMA Air Independent Propulsion system, PNS/M Khalid and PNS/M Saad will be upgraded with the same MESMA AIP system in the near future. The Pakistan Navy also plans to integrate the Boeing Harpoon Block II on to its Agosta-90Bs; and currently the Agosta-90Bs are capable of firing Blackshark torpedoes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Navy#Submarines


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## Pasha619

Hi. I wanted to know if its possible to join the Pakistan Navy after doing Fsc Pre-Med?
Thanks


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## Jango

does the pakistan navy do sea refuelling??...


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## S-A-B-E-R->

nuclearpak said:


> does the pakistan navy do sea refuelling??...


 
i guss they have 2 ships for that purpose


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

This is the info that Pak Navy itself provides about its Naval Aviation:

*AIRCRAFTS:*

*ATLANTIC 
29 ASW SQUADRON*

The Squadron was raised in the aftermath of the analysis of 1971 War. It was established that lack of early warning from the seaward i.e., absence of PN air surveillance capability allowed the Indian Navy Ships to close Karachi harbour for attacks. The basic aim, therefore, was to acquire an efficient air surveillance asset and achieve additional benefits like ASW, SAR and photographic capabilities. After studying various available options, the French Atlantics were selected and acquisition formalities were completed in 1974. Finally the Squadron was raised in 1976, with three Atlantics. As the raising year of 1976 coincided with 29th year of independence of Pakistan, this also became the reason to name "29 ASW Squadron". The prefix ASW highlights the Anti Submarine Warfare credentials of the aircraft i.e., to accomplish all the phases of ASW, right from initial detection to the eventual destruction of enemy submarine, all by itself. 

In 1989, PN Atlantics were modified to fire Exocet Missile. With this modification, PN Atlantics became the first LRMPs to acquire ASV capability. Even the French Atlantics, at that time, did not have this advantage. To maintain a qualitative edge in the field of LRMP operations, PN Atlantics were modified with state of the art French sensors like ESM, Acoustic Processor, Radar, Navigation System etc, in the mid nineties. The latest sensors have made PN Atlantic Fleet second to none in the region and at par with the latest French Atlantic-II and other modernised LRMPs of the world.

Atlantic is being utilized in almost every facet of Naval Operations. This aircraft because of its inherent advantages of multi role capability, high operational endurance, counter detection advantage, weapon superiority and being uniquely suited for immediate response across the wide spectrum of conflict has become an ideal choice of every force commander. PN Atlantics is by far, the fastest player in the Maritime Warfare scenarios affecting Pakistan. The PN Atlantics are integral to almost all the naval operations perceived to be undertaken by PN Fleet.


*FOKKER 
27 Maritime ASW Squadron*

PN inducted its first Fokker aircraft in 1982. In order to meet various PN requirements, three aircraft have been modified. The modified Fokkers are now at par with the other LRMPs in PN inventory. Thus PN Fokker not only trains Navigators//Pilots but also shares a major burden of Tactical/operational missions in the entire Indian Ocean.

The Fokker F-27 is all metal, high wing monoplanes for short/medium range transport, designed to carry 40 passengers or freight or combination of both passengers and freight. The marinized version of the aircraft is capable of prolonged sea operations. These include Surv, ASW, OTHT and VECTAC. With requisite equipment fitted, the as compared to aircraft of same capabilities. One of the aircraft is equipped with large cargo door and para drop equipment which provides operational/tactical airlift capability to PN and a spring board to SSG (N) personnel for their operations.


*P3C
28 ASW/ASV SQUADRON*

P3C is the latest addition to the Naval Air Arm. These aircraft are extremely potent and easy to maintain. The roles that can be undertaken by P-3Cs are much the same that can be performed by any other LRMP in the world. The sensors fitted onboard are integrated through an onboard central computer to produce a synergetic effect. Weapon carrying capacity of P-3C aircraft is un-paralleled by any other LRMP. It can carry a variety of anti-ship and anti-submarine weapons. The P-3C also has a very high operational performance.

P3C aircraft has variety of roles. It is basically an anti submarine and anti surface aircraft possessing variety of weapons such as missiles, torpedoes, Depth Charges, bombs etc. In its secondary role this aircraft is utilized for surveillance and SAR.



*HELICOPTERS*


*ALOUETTE 
333 ASW SQUADRON*

Alouette are entrusted with the primary task of training pilots for their eventual induction in the Sea King squadron. Besides training, the Alouettes perform such tasks as SAR, command and liaison and visual reconnaissance. These helicopters are regularly embarked on ships proceeding to sea, from where they are deployed to perform various tasks. Alouettes have adequate Navigation and communications equipment fitted onboard, to conduct maritime missions timely and effectively. 

Squadron was established in 1977 with the induction of four SA 319B Alouette helicopters.Presently, Alouette strength consists of 7 aircraft


*SEA KING
111 ASW/ASV SQUADRON 

SEARCH AND STRIKE*

Seaking helicopters constitute the 111 ASW/ASV squadron of the naval air arm. The squadron was established in 1975 with the induction of Seaking MK 42 helicopters from UK. These helicopters are based at Naval Air Station, PNS Mehran at Karachi, but they are capable to operate from various secondary bases located along the coast. Additionally these helicopters regularly operate from surface units of the fleet.

The squadron motto of Search and Strike exactly depicts the nature of operations of this squadron. These helicopters have requisite sensors and weapons suite onboard with which it can Search, Locate, Track and kill the surface or sub-surface targets. In ASV role the helicopter carries Air to Surface Missiles to destroy hostile surface combatants, whereas in ASW the Seaking is capable to carry Torpedoes to neutralize enemy subsurface units. The torpedoes can also be replaced by a depth charge to destroy enemy subsurface units in shallow waters or at snorkel. 

The squadron also forms backbone of Search and Rescue organization. The squadron has operated in all type of terrain extending from valleys and mountains of Azad Kashmir during the recent earth quake relief operations to the shores of Tsunami hit countries of South East Asia. These helicopters are ever ready to save precious human life as integral part of SAR organization for both military and civil purposes.

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> does the pakistan navy do sea refuelling??...



2 oil tankers are available - one is PNS Moawin. the other's is PNS...?


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## waq

fatman17 said:


> 2 oil tankers are available - one is PNS Moawin. the other's is PNS...?


 
the other one is PNS Nasar......


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## Jango

does the PN have underground naval bases like the chinese or norwegians?


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## ace slasher

what happened to pns 254 (sword Class) 
wasnt it supposed to be delivered by june 2011 ?
only 1 week left but no news yet?


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## SEAL

Wikileaks

14. (C) We do deny Pakistan requests for arms sales that could upset the regional balance of power. Post on February 20 recommended that *Washington disapprove Pakistan's request to buy the Coastal targeting Suppression System, which gives AGM-84 Harpoon ship missiles the capability of hitting land targets; this acquisition would have given Pakistan an overt offensive capability to threaten India and served no COIN purpose. *

What is this Coastal targeting suppression system? Can we use Babur or Ra'ad as Coastal targeting suppression system?


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## Aamir Hussain

Underway Replenishment Ships is the right term for these "Oil Tankers." BTW both the ships are classed as Fleet Replenishment Ships -- they are not just oil tankers but can also transfer dry goods etc.


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## jupiter2007

*Pakistan Navy has ordered Two missile boats of 500 tons equipped with C802/803 anti ship missile from China in December 2010, delivery date is unknown.* Any information about these Missile boats?


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## MZUBAIR

Pakistan Navy is weak.


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## Jango

are those houbei class boats you are talking about?


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## ThunderCat

I have a question of my own. Does the Pak Navy use any jeeps or ground transportation vehicles? I know the American military uses jeeps and trucks but never heard of the Pak Navy using such. Do they use them at all?


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## TOPGUN

ThunderCat said:


> I have a question of my own. Does the Pak Navy use any jeeps or ground transportation vehicles? I know the American military uses jeeps and trucks but never heard of the Pak Navy using such. Do they use them at all?


 
Offcourse they use them yaar... don't be silly its a full opertional force despite the PNS Mehran issue.


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## ThunderCat

TOPGUN said:


> Offcourse they use them yaar... don't be silly its a full opertional force despite the PNS Mehran issue.


 
I didn't mean it like that. I meant what exactly is their mode of transport for their senior officers on the ground or do they use regular cars. I've been looking for pictures of Pakistani navy jeeps and trucks online but i can't find any so i'm assuming they use regular but fancy vehicles.


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## GHOST RIDER

ThunderCat said:


> I didn't mean it like that. I meant what exactly is their mode of transport for their senior officers on the ground or do they use regular cars. I've been looking for pictures of Pakistani navy jeeps and trucks online but i can't find any so i'm assuming they use regular but fancy vehicles.


 
mostly for transportation of officers and escorts,how ever i did once see a blue truck loaded with P.N Marines on The Shar-e-faisal road going some where,
and once saw a Naval police mobile(just like the regular police) parked out side P.N.S Shifa
but we dont have like americans do full time combat dreesed soldier armed with 50 cal mounted on Humvee,we dont have that
only formally dressed soldiers in pants and shirt armed with Mp-5 AND aK-47 AND WEARNG AN OLD STYLE METAL HELMET and providing escort

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## ThunderCat

GHOST RIDER said:


> mostly for transportation of officers and escorts,how ever i did once see a blue truck loaded with P.N Marines on The Shar-e-faisal road going some where,
> and once saw a Naval police mobile(just like the regular police) parked out side P.N.S Shifa
> but we dont have like americans do full time combat dreesed soldier armed with 50 cal mounted on Humvee,we dont have that
> only formally dressed soldiers in pants and shirt armed with Mp-5 AND aK-47 AND WEARNG AN OLD STYLE METAL HELMET and providing escort


 
Any photographs of these? I know they use armed personnel as any senior would but never knew what their vehicles looked like


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## fatman17

ThunderCat said:


> I didn't mean it like that. I meant what exactly is their mode of transport for their senior officers on the ground or do they use regular cars. I've been looking for pictures of Pakistani navy jeeps and trucks online but i can't find any so i'm assuming they use regular but fancy vehicles.



navy uses toyota jeeps, now-a-days toyota hi-ace trucks, toyota 'double-cabs are used for ground transportation. generals get to use BMW's.


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## GHOST RIDER

and when there are lots of officers to be transported they use a big bus painted white
i will try my best to take some photos


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## GHOST RIDER

like this





except that it is in alot better codition,if it does not become a victim of a blast


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## Luftwaffe

Instead of opening a thread I'll just post some information over here heard it that Pakistan Ministry of Defense Production floated a tender for naval tanker(s) and a local company was offering to build local production of 2 engine Naval Tanker(s) but the former Secretary of Defense Production gave the contact to foreign company that was offering single engine tanker and cost was higher, an astounding $5 Million confirmed kickback was offered/received former previous secretary of defense production. Know that 3000 Pakistani workers were going to help in locally producing this/these tanker(s). Now this is massive corruption.

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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> Instead of opening a thread I'll just post some information over here heard it that Pakistan Ministry of Defense Production floated a tender for naval tanker(s) and a local company was offering to build local production of 2 engine Naval Tanker(s) but the former Secretary of Defense Production gave the contact to foreign company that was offering single engine tanker and cost was higher, an astounding $5 Million confirmed kickback was offered/received former previous secretary of defense production. Know that 3000 Pakistani workers were going to help in locally producing this/these tanker(s). Now this is massive corruption.



what is the time-line of this alleged incident.


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## ThunderCat

Thanx for the replies. Appriciated


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## Luftwaffe

I was watching TV program on Dunya TV, the guy leaks many information that turn out to be True thought acts like a joker.

26 January 2011, before Tender was Issued for Naval Oil Tankers. Ministry of Defence Production contacted Karachi Shipyard Company If they are able to construct Oil Tankers with the requirements the company replied with Yes But former Secretary of Defence Production Floated the Tender and awarded the contract to a foreign company.


Watch 7:20 on wards..


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## pakomar

i already posted this query ...
hope for positive guidance
salam
what are the possible qualities they look for SSG (navy) branch in pak navy short commission 2011?
please guide ....


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## Btrizer

whats the difference between a corvette and a frigate .... considering pak has has frigates and not corvettes 


i know countries with strong navies have corvettes but if pakistan obtained them , would it actually change the naval power of pakistan more then if it got another frigate?


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## razgriz19

Btrizer said:


> whats the difference between a corvette and a frigate .... considering pak has has frigates and not corvettes
> 
> 
> i know countries with strong navies have corvettes but if pakistan obtained them , would it actually change the naval power of pakistan more then if it got another frigate?



corvettes are smaller than a typical frigate.
they are best for coastal defence as they are faster and more manueverable than other warships.

corvettes are lightly armed compare to frigates and destroyers so i dont think it would make much of a difference....

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## bigest

corvettes are smaller than frigates

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## fatman17

Fiscal Year: 2011 Country: PAKISTAN Implementing Agency: Department of the Navy 
Type of Transfer: Grant Authority 

*Item: USCGC ACUSHNET Model: WMEC-167 National Stock Number: * 

Congressional Notification Sent: Quantity Allocated: 1 Unit Acquisition Value: 2917000 
Congressional Expiration: Quantity Accepted: 0 Total Acquisition Value: 2917000 
Authorized to Supply: 1/19/2011 Quantity Rejected: 0 Unit Current Value: 291700 
EDA Accepted: Total Quantity Delivered: 0 Total Current Value: 291700 


_saw this item in the EDA bulletin board - what is it?_

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> Fiscal Year: 2011 Country: PAKISTAN Implementing Agency: Department of the Navy
> Type of Transfer: Grant Authority
> 
> *Item: USCGC ACUSHNET Model: WMEC-167 National Stock Number: *
> 
> Congressional Notification Sent: Quantity Allocated: 1 Unit Acquisition Value: 2917000
> Congressional Expiration: Quantity Accepted: 0 Total Acquisition Value: 2917000
> Authorized to Supply: 1/19/2011 Quantity Rejected: 0 Unit Current Value: 291700
> EDA Accepted: Total Quantity Delivered: 0 Total Current Value: 291700
> 
> 
> _saw this item in the EDA bulletin board - what is it?_


 
Its this sir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Acushnet_(WMEC-167)

USCGC ACUSHNET (WMEC 167) - Ship Information

A second world war ship.

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## fatman17

its going to the coast guard for coastal patrols / anti-smuggling etc.


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## Don Jaguar

What does it means 4 dimensional navy???


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## fatman17

Don Jaguar said:


> What does it means 4 dimensional navy???



surface
sub-surface
air-borne
land marines

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## Don Jaguar

Thanx for telling!!!

Recently my younger brother gave the exam of navy, in interview he was asked *"what does four dimensional navy means"*??? and guess what he replied???

He said it means ships can move in four directions!!!


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## alimobin memon

sorry what is 4 dimensional navy please collaborate


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## pshamim

alimobin memon said:


> sorry what is 4 dimensional navy please collaborate


 
I think Fatman and others have answered this question before. But here again it means:
1.Surface Arm
2. Submarine Force
3. Naval Air Arm
4.Naval Marines and special forces (SSGN)


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## fatman17

Don Jaguar said:


> Thanx for telling!!!
> 
> Recently my younger brother gave the exam of navy, in interview he was asked *"what does four dimensional navy means"*??? and guess what he replied???
> 
> He said it means ships can move in four directions!!!



that is funny!!!!!


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## Luftwaffe

Is there any alternate to AEGIS Destroyers/similar Chinese which are cheaper AEGIS/similar like AEGIS Cruiser..

Does China has any active program of building such cruisers with aegis like combat systems.


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## Penguin

TaimiKhan said:


> Its this sir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Acushnet_(WMEC-167)
> 
> USCGC ACUSHNET (WMEC 167) - Ship Information
> 
> A second world war ship.


 


> As the _majority of Acushnet's patrols became Alaska Patrols_, she moved in in 1998 to Ketchikan, Alaska where she is employed in law enforcement, fisheries, and search and rescue in Alaska. This considerably shortened her transit time to the Bering Sea.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Acushnet_(WMEC-167)



> While both sister ships have been decommissioned, ACUSHNET continues to serve as a medium endurance cutter in the _Pacific Ocean, Gulf of Alaska, Bering Sea, and Arctic Ocean_. Previous plans would have brought all of the 213ft class cutters out of service by the mid-1990s, but Coast Guard policy reviews continue to extend the service-life of ACUSHNET as _suitable replacements have not been identified to meet the demanding operating environment_. ACUSHNET changed homeport to Ketchikan, Alaska in 1998 where she primarily patrols the Gulf of Alaska and the Bering Sea. Her primary missions include search and rescue, homeland security, maritime law enforcement, and environmental protection.


USCGC ACUSHNET (WMEC 167) - History

Originally a Diver class rescue and salvage ship, she was also used for minesweeping in WW2. Upon transfer to USCG conducted a broad range of missions including: search and rescue, counter-drug operations, fisheries enforcement, migrant interdiction, homelands security and oceanography. Decommed fri. march 11 2011. _Auctioned _off by US GSA (General Services Administration).

Photo history: Salvage Ship Photo Index (ARS)

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## GHOST RIDER

Does pak navy has a dock landing ship?


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## meng2011

pakistan is getting Oliver perry class frigate in 2010 are we getting any more mean some sources says that pakistan wants 6 of them


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## Imran Khan

GHOST RIDER said:


> Does pak navy has a dock landing ship?



nope PN dont have dock landing ship

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## Dr. Strangelove

any news about the milgem class covrettes we r getting when will the firt arrive


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## mitth

What a dock ship?


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## Dr. Strangelove

mitth said:


> What a dock ship?


Dock landing ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## mitth

wasm95 said:


> Dock landing ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Pakistan have no any dock ship?


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## alimobin memon

How many p3c orions we have ?


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## razgriz19

mitth said:


> Pakistan have no any dock ship?



it doesn't serve any important purpose in our navy thats why we dont have any...
its usually good for offensive operation, by taking personel, choppers to an enemy coast.
this is not the strategy that our navy employs so thats why we dont have any..


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## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> How many p3c orions we have ?



only 2 on active duty and others are in USA for upgrade soon we got 2 more from uncle sam which will direct start active duty .now we will own 8 of them rather then 10 dear.


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## Terror Train

Can anybody tell me that is Pak Navy alows further education after u got short service commision...i have done my bs and planning to join Navy but will they allow me to do my MS....plz help?


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## alimobin memon

Imran Khan said:


> only 2 on active duty and others are in USA for upgrade soon we got 2 more from uncle sam which will direct start active duty .now we will own 8 of them rather then 10 dear.


that means 2 cuz i don't think u.s is going to give us if pakistan is under attack as it is already been planned.


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## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> that means 2 cuz i don't think u.s is going to give us if pakistan is under attack as it is already been planned.



2 are in service now 2 are ready to deliver by us and 2 others are in last stage of upgrade dear don't worry soon 6 in service .


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## mitth

Thanks all of the forum........


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## circuitbaba

What Anti ship missile does PN Babur Class ships carry.I know they carry LY-60 as SAM


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## umerseo

Awesome )


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## Nishan_101

So does Ormara Naval Base is being considered or not? I think that KPT should look towards a similar size third Shipyard in Karachi and more over expanding the facilities to Hub city.


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## VanessaK

Yes the role of all these people at war is very convincing and lots of people just try to escape by getting here.


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## Farooqi1

Any one has any news about J11Bs or that idea is long gone?


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## Edevelop

I was skimming through Pak Navy's assets on wikipedia and it said that we had 3 Westland Lynx and they were retired in 2003.
WTF why would you retire something that is very capable and not too old?


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## fatman17

cb4 said:


> I was skimming through Pak Navy's assets on wikipedia and it said that we had 3 Westland Lynx and they were retired in 2003.
> WTF why would you retire something that is very capable and not too old?



issue of spare parts. expensive to operate.



Farooqi1 said:


> Any one has any news about J11Bs or that idea is long gone?



there was never any official news. the news was speculation started by members of this forum or from elsewhere. now the J16 version is an interesting idea.


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## Christop

that is the nice information,


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## fatman17

*SS-417 Tench* - GlobalSecurity.org - Reliable Security Information
SS-417 Tench. A total of 144 Tench (SS-417) class submarines were ordered during 1943-46. They had improved machinery and ballast tank arrangements and stronger hull than the Gato (SS-212) and Balao (SS-285) classes though were very similar in design.

globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ss-417.htm

_can anyone comment if the PNS Ghazi was a Tench Class sub?_ Penguin?

Built by the Portsmouth Navy Yard of New Hampshire, the USS Sirago (SS-485), *a Tench -class submarine* named for a tropical freshwater fish, was launched on 13 May 1945 and commissioned on 13 August 1945. Measuring 311 feet 8 inches long, and displacing more than 1,800 tons surfaced and 2,400 tons submerged, the Sirago was armed with ten 21-inch torpedo tubes. The Sirago conducted her shakedown cruise off the East Coast and in the Caribbean under Commander F. J. Harlfinger II, the boat's first commanding officer. 

Upon joining Submarine Squadron 8 (SubRon 8) she transferred to New London, Connecticut, and in January 1946 took part in the destruction of two German submarines near Provincetown, Massachusetts. The Sirago participated in several training operations until December 1948, when she began a GUPPY II conversion at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. Upon completion of her conversion in July 1949, she was a modern high-speed attack submarine and joined SubRon 6 in Norfolk, Virginia. 

As an integral part of SubRon 6, the Sirago trained for antisubmarine and antisurface operations, intelligence gathering, and research and development projects. The Sirago operated primarily in the Western Atlantic and took part in numerous U.S. and international naval exercises, including several with the Canadian Navy and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The Sirago also deployed to the Mediterranean during the 1950s and operated as part of the U.S. Navy's Sixth Fleet during the fall of 1951 and the fall of 1954.


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## Nishan_101

Why didn't the PN inducted 21 Z-9EC in three phases like 7 in each phase and 11 Naval Helicopter AC313 in two phases.


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## manofwar

@ fatman what does PN use as ASW if Westland Lynx is retired??
the Harbins are for use on frigates..........What coastal capabilities does PN have??


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## Jango

SeaKing???


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## The Deterrent

Question:
Exactly how many types of torpedos does PN employ aboard the submarines, surface vessels, aircrafts and helicopters? (specifications and links would be appreciated).


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## Capt.Popeye

fatman17 said:


> *SS-417 Tench* - GlobalSecurity.org - Reliable Security Information
> SS-417 Tench. A total of 144 Tench (SS-417) class submarines were ordered during 1943-46. They had improved machinery and ballast tank arrangements and stronger hull than the Gato (SS-212) and Balao (SS-285) classes though were very similar in design.
> 
> globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ss-417.htm
> 
> _can anyone comment if the PNS Ghazi was a Tench Class sub?_ Penguin?
> 
> Built by the Portsmouth Navy Yard of New Hampshire, the USS Sirago (SS-485), *a Tench -class submarine* named for a tropical freshwater fish, was launched on 13 May 1945 and commissioned on 13 August 1945. Measuring 311 feet 8 inches long, and displacing more than 1,800 tons surfaced and 2,400 tons submerged, the Sirago was armed with ten 21-inch torpedo tubes. The Sirago conducted her shakedown cruise off the East Coast and in the Caribbean under Commander F. J. Harlfinger II, the boat's first commanding officer.
> 
> Upon joining Submarine Squadron 8 (SubRon 8) she transferred to New London, Connecticut, and in January 1946 took part in the destruction of two German submarines near Provincetown, Massachusetts. The Sirago participated in several training operations until December 1948, when she began a GUPPY II conversion at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. Upon completion of her conversion in July 1949, she was a modern high-speed attack submarine and joined SubRon 6 in Norfolk, Virginia.
> 
> As an integral part of SubRon 6, the Sirago trained for antisubmarine and antisurface operations, intelligence gathering, and research and development projects. The Sirago operated primarily in the Western Atlantic and took part in numerous U.S. and international naval exercises, including several with the Canadian Navy and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The Sirago also deployed to the Mediterranean during the 1950s and operated as part of the U.S. Navy's Sixth Fleet during the fall of 1951 and the fall of 1954.



Yes, Fatman17, 
PNS Ghazi was a Tench class sub. She carried the name USS Diablo while in USN service.

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## fatman17

manofwar said:


> @ fatman what does PN use as ASW if Westland Lynx is retired??
> the Harbins are for use on frigates..........What coastal capabilities does PN have??



the Z-9's are land based squadron and PN has the MK-45 Seakings for the ASuW/ASW role.


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## Anotherangle

My questions are:
1. How will Pak Navy protect their expending air arm during a war? What assets do they have against air strikes? Relocating their assets can be a tactic not a plan, and MANPADS are limited. (I can recall one P3 downed by Indians right in the middle of Pakistan air space, and PNS Mehran everybody knows.)
2. Are their any air defenses available for Naval bases in Karachi, other than PAF cover? (e.g. SAM, AAMs on helicopters etc.)
3. What are PN's littoral/coastal defense plans especially air defenses and against enemy's SEAL groups considering a long coast to defend? (I know nobody tells plans, but the question is rhetorical.)
4. In spite of a wave of terrorist attacks on PN, how do they make those officers OD on land bases (like PNS Mehran) who have no experience in land warfare?


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## Rocky rock

S.U.R.B. said:


> will PN get the antiaircraft missiles with the u214 subs which germans have tested on u212 successfully?



PN isn't buying u-214 sub's the order was canceled pak is making indigenously nuclear sub which may complete in 2019


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## Nishan_101

Although due to some technical and financial reason PN is not looking towards the U-214s but the problem is that PN doesn't have looked nicely towards Agosta-90BS like instead of producing three of them they should have gone for at least 7 of them. After receiving the 1st one they should have tried to assemble the 2nd and 3rd one at the same time and then go for the 4th and 5th one and later on 6th and 7th one, though 1st,2nd and 3rd one won't have AIP in the begining but they will be refitted at a later date. More over they should have upgraded the Agosta-70s in 2000 to remain it in service till 2015 and then replace it with better options. All this could be achieved if we had started work on the similar size third Shipyard at KE&SWs in 1999/2000 and also looking towards Naval base during the construction of Gawadar Port along with three Mega Shipyards there two so that they will going to support future expansions.

During the period of Agosta-90Bs construction we could have looked towards U-212 instead of U-214 and with the help HDWs we can produce it from 2009 till 2015/2017. This would going to replace the Agosta-70s and would add the capability as well.


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## bilal_khan

What is latest on Poolster class Tanker?


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## james5

Look just by building under certificate one doesn't get the capability to style a deliver with thousands of subsystems.


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## Ra'ad

I understand how an airforce, or army operate. But i still dont get how a navy operates, like how are its vessels assigned missions depending on their class. I have seen one example of a typical US cold war style Carrier Group formation where everyone sticks together. But how would pakistans navy operate in the event of a war?

** How are our destroyers, frigates, corvettes, FACs (Azmat) different in their roles? (all have the same weapons)
* When frigates can kill both ships and subs, what do destroyers do?
* Do they all stick together like the US example, or do corvettes (or FACs) operate alone?
* How do our subs work with the navy? (my understanding is that theyre usually alone and indepedent - as assasins)
* How do our fighters like mirages, jf17 work with the navy?


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## Penguin

1. PN operate no destroyers, corvettes, just frigates
2. They can be on patrol alone, sometimes assigned to an international group
3. They can be formated in a task group, which probably has a minimum of 3 ships when ASW is needed (3 ships + 3 helis). Such a group would be supported by an AOR plus escort ship. 
4. There would be a seperation between blue and brown water units.
5. Subs work alone mostly, although the could be assigned to a task group.
6. Fighter support is called in as needed.

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## Tshering22

Rocky rock said:


> PN isn't buying u-214 sub's the order was canceled pak is making indigenously nuclear sub which may complete in 2019



That sir, is like comparing apples to oranges. 

The U214 is an attack submarine used for active conventional underwater warfare while what your country is claiming to make is a strategic asset, to be used as a last resort. 

Besides, foreign countries especially western ones cannot sell anybody nuclear submarines. If that was not the case, a lot of countries would be armed with imported nuke subs. 

To answer the gentleman you had answered:

The U214 deal seems to be on hold for now as far as reports go by. But to say that it has been indefinitely canceled would be wrong as rival European countries would definitely want to tap into this area's market if one country succeeds in convincing a major client here.


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## S.Y.A

Tshering22 said:


> That sir, is like comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> The U214 is an attack submarine used for active conventional underwater warfare while what your country is claiming to make is a strategic asset, to be used as a last resort.
> 
> Besides, foreign countries especially western ones cannot sell anybody nuclear submarines. If that was not the case, a lot of countries would be armed with imported nuke subs.
> 
> To answer the gentleman you had answered:
> 
> The U214 deal seems to be on hold for now as far as reports go by. But to say that it has been indefinitely canceled would be wrong as rival European countries would definitely want to tap into this area's market if one country succeeds in convincing a major client here.



maybe they are making a SSN not a SSBN


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## fatman17

this rumour of a nuke sub under construction is a figment of someone's imagination.

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## Penguin

S.Y.A said:


> maybe they are making a SSN not a SSBN



SSN is coming closer to SSBN if armed with long range nuclear tipped cruise missile.



Tshering22 said:


> That sir, is like comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> The U214 is an attack submarine used for active conventional underwater warfare while what your country is claiming to make is a strategic asset, to be used as a last resort.
> 
> Besides, foreign countries especially western ones cannot sell anybody nuclear submarines. If that was not the case, a lot of countries would be armed with imported nuke subs.
> 
> To answer the gentleman you had answered:
> 
> The U214 deal seems to be on hold for now as far as reports go by. But to say that it has been indefinitely canceled would be wrong as rival European countries would definitely want to tap into this area's market if one country succeeds in convincing a major client here.



Most SS/SSK are for all intents and purposes attack submarines, esp. when equipped with AIP.


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## Javed786

Yes  
our navy have any plans to buy any aircraft carrier similar to the ins viraat?


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## Rocky rock

Javed786 said:


> Yes
> our navy have any plans to buy any aircraft carrier similar to the ins viraat?



No man thata thing is so Far to think...it'll drag us to 2020 to think about carrier....so jxt pray... hope for better....


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## TR.1

Javed786 said:


> Yes
> our navy have any plans to buy any aircraft carrier similar to the ins viraat?



Instead of AC you can get LHD, quarter price of AC. Like 400 million.


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## DevilDog

Hey guys, okay you have a good army and your air force isn't bad. But frenkly the **** Navy is fucved up. I think the gov't should give the most money for this branch of **** armed forces. Btw can anyone inform me about Pakistani Naval Aviation? (with pictures pls.)


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## Gentelman

sajidkhan said:


> is our navy have any plans to buy any aircraft carrier similar to the ins viraat?



negitive....
not till atleast 2028+
still a long way to goo....


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## Gentelman

was said:


> did we aquired agosta TOT to build only three boats?????



no PN get TOT to aquire sub technology......
it will help in building own sub in future....


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## Gentelman

DevilDog said:


> Hey guys, okay you have a good army and your air force isn't bad. But frenkly the **** Navy is fucved up. I think the gov't should give the most money for this branch of **** armed forces. Btw can anyone inform me about Pakistani Naval Aviation? (with pictures pls.)



page 1 post 8...
nothing worth seeing expect PC-3 ..
chk out in gallery....



fox said:


> P3C and P-8i are comparable aircrafts or not??
> can P-8i fire harpoons missiles???



P3C are more advanced as the one PN have are most advanced havind AWACS and newest upgrades with surrvillance,anti sub,anti surface and long pattroling capabilities....



jalip said:


> pakistan is getting Oliver perry class frigate in 2010 are we getting any more mean some sources says that pakistan wants 6 of them



negitive...
Pakistan is looking forwards to get 4-6 more F-22P with upgraded anti air crafts capabilities. ..


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## Gentelman

jalip said:


> can pakistan really built agosta 90 with out french engineers help i know we have to import lot of stuff but can we really assemble by our own and any plan of building more subs (agosta 90) in near future



PN can built full subs with imported engine and radars,avionics etc but PN dont have any plans for such subs...
they are looking for german U-214 with TOT or chinees Quing class subs.....
chinees subs are.more likely to be induced....

what is difference b/w destroyer, frigate and covertee??
is there any PN plans to induce any covertee and destroyer...
and why PN dont have any covertee and destroyer...PN dont need them at all??


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## Dr. Strangelove

Javed786 said:


> Yes
> our navy have any plans to buy any aircraft carrier similar to the ins viraat?



first of all we dont need aircraft carriers we dont have huge coast line to defend like india and they are too expensive to procure and operate 
we just need to get more subs and pray we can get some more ohps


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## Penguin

Carriers are not for the defence of coastline. They are for power projection i.e. projecting force elsewhere (typically far away from home)

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## truthseeker2010

Sir


> Penguin


: a question for you, how can the air defence of F-22P be increased... can it be FL-3000N instead of FM-90, which will be again point defence, just an increase of quantity from 8 to 24, or it should be VLS cells... but then the question will be of missile ESSM or Shtil.... what would be more effective given the main threat perception of supersonic brahmos.


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## Penguin

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir : a question for you, how can the air defence of F-22P be increased... can it be FL-3000N instead of FM-90, which will be again point defence, just an increase of quantity from 8 to 24, or it should be VLS cells... but then the question will be of missile ESSM or Shtil.... what would be more effective given the main threat perception of supersonic brahmos.


ANY vertical launch missile would be an improvement over the current HQ7: better capability to defend against multi-axis AShM attacks. To fully reap benefits of a VL missile, one would preferably have either multiple fire control channels rather than the current single channel for the SAM system (e.g. quadpacked ESSM from Mk41, with 2 STIR), or a fire and forget SAM (active radar homing and imaging IR homing VL Mica variants or IIRH VL Umkhonto for example, or MK41 with quadpacked RAM block 2). Against a supersonic missile, extra missile range is nice but needs to be backed up by suitable modern radars. 

Ideally: 1x 8-cell Mk41 with 32 ESSM (and/or any number of Single Cell Launcher distributed around the ship where space and weight allow) , backed by e.g Australian CEAFAR/CEAMOUNT radars in an integrated mast as refitted to HMAS Perth or as proposed for the US Patrol frigate. Extensible Launching System (ExLS) will allow other munitions to be carried in Mk41 and SCL besides ESSM e.g. RAM block 2 and Nulka decoy.

HMAS Perth: Before and After refitting with Ceafar/Ceamount









ps: wonder if Genesis would be suitable for F22P variant, certainly would match with use of ESSM

Alternatively, the fire and forget VL Mica and Umkhonto SAM would be very nice systems to have on an F22P variant, not in the last place because they are VL but do not require illuminating / missile direction radars of any kind. Some 16 rounds of either missile mated to a (active) high rate 3D radar and an (passive) IRST would do nicely, even if range would be less than HQ7.

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## jupiter2007

Could someone please point me to right direction, i am looking the pictures of Mirage Rose upgrade III, II and I?


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## Neptune

It's from CTF151. The other guys are okay. But I couldn't figure out the blue dressed brother. Is he from PN?


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## Yogi

Gentelman said:


> page 1 post 8...
> nothing worth seeing expect PC-3 ..
> chk out in gallery....
> 
> 
> *
> P3C are more advanced as the one PN have are most advanced havind AWACS and newest upgrades with surrvillance,anti sub,anti surface and long pattroling capabilities....*
> 
> 
> 
> negitive...
> Pakistan is looking forwards to get 4-6 more F-22P with upgraded anti air crafts capabilities. ..



i beg to differ with the bold part, both P8Is n P3Cs r nearly equal in capabilities however P8Is have a slight edge over P3Cs but P8Is r more suitable for India's needs considering our long coastline n Blue water navy ambitions while P3Cs suits more Pak's need besides that P8I being a newer platform has a lot more scope for improvement while P3Cs have reached the end of there life...


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## Gentelman

Yogi said:


> i beg to differ with the bold part, both P8Is n P3Cs r nearly equal in capabilities however P8Is have a slight edge over P3Cs but P8Is r more suitable for India's needs considering our long coastline n Blue water navy ambitions while P3Cs suits more Pak's need besides that P8I being a newer platform has a lot more scope for improvement while P3Cs have reached the end of there life...



well i suppose they are almost equal.....
ok not equal but almost...
and US equips never ends....
yessss i know P3 can't be now much upgraded while P-8s upgradation chances are very much.....
we got P-3 almost for free soo we have no woory...
GOP hates to spend some on PN so we always really on used and US or chinees soft loans for our Navy.....



jupiter2007 said:


> Could someone please point me to right direction, i am looking the pictures of Mirage Rose upgrade III, II and I?



pictures gallery..!!


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## Gentelman

jupiter2007 said:


> Could someone please point me to right direction, i am looking the pictures of Mirage Rose upgrade III, II and I?



here you goo!!
Mirage III/V - Pakistan Military Photos


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## S.Y.A

Neptune said:


> It's from CTF151. The other guys are okay. But I couldn't figure out the blue dressed brother. Is he from PN?



yes, blue uniform is the older one , it has been replaced by the grey one


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## Neptune

S.Y.A said:


> yes, blue uniform is the older one , it has been replaced by the grey one



yeap, aboard TCG Gokova, former flagship of CTF-151. After us, PN took over the command


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## king of pop

SEAL said:


> P3C and P-8i are comparable aircrafts or not??
> can P-8i fire harpoons missiles???



why pn not buy type 214 class sub?


----------



## Gentelman

ANTIBODY said:


> Upgrade RCWS for PNS Jurrat
> 
> Seen here at NAVDEX Pakistan Navy on board the missile-armed fast attack craft PNS is Jurrat Aselsan STOP 25mm Stabilised's remote-control small-caliber gun.
> 
> Recently fitted as a replacement for the manual twin 25mm mounting Previously we Jurrat installed, the mounting STOP Incorporates year electro-optical director onmount for target acquisition and tracking.
> 
> STOP has-been developed by Aselsan (Stand 05-A20) to meet navies' requirements for defensive firepower against a closein ranks of air and surface targets.
> 
> Able to accept a variety of 20mm, 25mm and 30mm cannon, the non-penetrating, two-axis turret mounting Stabilised has-been designed to enable simple installation and integration.
> 
> The independent electro-optical sight, integrated into the turret assembly, Provides for fully automatic target detection and tracking. It can function in a également monitoring mode (without aiming the gun).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> STOP right now - IDEX 2013 | IHS Jane's



is PNS Jurrat created by Pakistan Navy themselves??
If not which type is it??
Is PNS Azmat a FAC??



SEAL said:


> P3C and P-8i are comparable aircrafts or not??
> can P-8i fire harpoons missiles???



both can fire harpoons...
P3 is not comparable to P-8I but PNs P3-3 upgraded version is comparable to P-8Is 1st block.....


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## Gentelman

sajidkhan said:


> is our navy have any plans to buy any aircraft carrier similar to the ins viraat?



you ok dear??
no we don't need aircraft carrier...
and we don't have money...
if we will have there are many pending plans i.e aquiring of 2-3 destroyers,5-6 submarines,some covettes maybe and replace naval fighter/bomber squadron....



Patriot said:


> Hi guys,
> Do we have some sort of Navy Aviation arm now?Or some Squadrons are tasked to help Navy during war?



a member with nearly 8000 post is asking yhis??


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## Gentelman

was said:


> did we aquired agosta TOT to build only three boats?????



yeah!! 
you are absolutely right!
well because of scorpion deal by IN ,PN now will not build Agosta as scorpion is more advanced than this..
PN will surely go for any other platform now....
our recourses don't allow us to built more subs....


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## niaz

king of pop said:


> why pn not buy type 214 class sub?



There were lot of discussions, but fizzled out due to lack of funds.


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## Pandora

I was wondering that why Pakistan doesn't have any landing crafts. Every functional navy across the world whether how small or large has got some in its inventory.


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## Gentelman

smuhs1 said:


> I was wondering that why Pakistan doesn't have any landing crafts. Every functional navy across the world whether how small or large has got some in its inventory.







Pakistan Marines have Em.....
and PN don't have such doctrine to land infantry by sea.....
i suppose Special Service group of Navy will have em of some kind.....or maybe they have speed boats...
Pakistan Navy have Griffon 200 air cushioned landing craft...
and maybe type 724...
www.outflankers.com/air-cushion-landing-craft/

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## Taha Samad

Just a question that came to my mind, I read that 3 of the Type-21s are armed with Harpoons and other 3 are armed with LY-60 SAM. So how would Type-21s usually operate in a wartime scenario. Do they usually work in formations of two, where one ship provides SAM cover and other provides anti ship capability?


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## Zarbe Momin

What at moment Pakistan Navy has is Scheiße (Bull ****). They have three good Agost 90 B Submarines but lack in numbers, Four good F-22P Frigrates with very very shrot range FM-90 air defence missle system which make F.22P vulnerable (sorry to say but this is fact), Azmat class missle boats are good green water sytem also at moment lack in numbers. 23 mm gun on Azmat class missle boat is automatic but no radar and IR/Optical sensors are coupled with gun. Pakistan Navy do not have blue water fast speed boats for antisubmarine role to assist Frigrates and destroyers. In future no serious plan to have destroyers. No serious plan to have air defence missle system against air attack and in future to counter curise missle attack on naval bases and oil refineries and sea ports. Navy marine corps has just Mistral and Bofors RBS.70, good but not enough, marine corps lack helicopters to transport marine in case of conflict with india. They have not learnt lesson their PC.3 remain air born without suport of fighter jets. India taught us lesson in 1999 in atlantic incident, but pakistan navy didnt learn as usual.


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## fatman17

smuhs1 said:


> I was wondering that why Pakistan doesn't have any landing crafts. Every functional navy across the world whether how small or large has got some in its inventory.



which country r we invading from sea?



Zarbe Momin said:


> What at moment Pakistan Navy has is Scheiße (Bull ****). They have three good Agost 90 B Submarines but lack in numbers, Four good F-22P Frigrates with very very shrot range FM-90 air defence missle system which make F.22P vulnerable (sorry to say but this is fact), Azmat class missle boats are good green water sytem also at moment lack in numbers. 23 mm gun on Azmat class missle boat is automatic but no radar and IR/Optical sensors are coupled with gun. Pakistan Navy do not have blue water fast speed boats for antisubmarine role to assist Frigrates and destroyers. In future no serious plan to have destroyers. No serious plan to have air defence missle system against air attack and in future to counter curise missle attack on naval bases and oil refineries and sea ports. Navy marine corps has just Mistral and Bofors RBS.70, good but not enough, marine corps lack helicopters to transport marine in case of conflict with india. They have not learnt lesson their PC.3 remain air born without suport of fighter jets. India taught us lesson in 1999 in atlantic incident, but pakistan navy didnt learn as usual.



so what do u think - how much $$$ are required for your wish list which suggests that PN should be a blue water navy.


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## Rajput_Pakistani

*Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS)*
The SOund SUrveillance System (SOSUS) provides deep-water long-range detection capability. SOSUS enjoyed tremendous success during the Cold War tracking submarines by their faint acoustic signals. SOSUS consists of high-gain long fixed arrays in the deep ocean basins 
BEAM accesses form beams from multiple hydrophone arrays trained on the seafloor to provide signal gain obtained through beam forming. 
PHONE accesses individual hydrophones from arrays throughout the oceans provides omni-directional coverage.
With the advent of submarine warfare and it's impact on Allied forces and supply lines in WWII, the need for timely detection of undersea threats was made a high priority in Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW). As technology of the time progressed, it was recognized that shore-based monitoring stations were the answer to the problem since they could be made basically impervious to destruction, foul weather, and ambient self-generated noise. Since the early 1950s the Atlantic and Pacific oceans have been under the vigilence of SOSUS, with long acoustic sensors (hydrophones) installed across the ocean bottom at key locations. SOSUS has transitioned from single-beam paper displays to computer-based workstations for acoustic data analysis. By the end of FY 1998, the Shore Signal Information Processing Segment (SSIPS) and Surveillance Direction System (SDS) had been installed at all shore facilities, giving SOSUS a common equipment configuration and significantly reducing system infrastructure support costs. 
With the development of quieter submarines and counter-tactics to evade SOSUS, newer technologies have been implemented over the years to "keep up with the threat". Faster processors, higher capacity storage devices, and "cleaner code" has enabled the advancement of the art of locating undersea threats. Currently, the Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (IUSS) uses all of these advancements in the Fixed Surveillance System (FSS), Fixed Distributed System (FDS), and the Advanced Deployable System (ADS). 
SOSUS Arrays are being placed in a standby status in which the data is available but not continuously monitored. In the event of a resurgence in the global submarine threat the worldwide network of fixed undersea surveillance systems such as the Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS) a critical asset. Since the end of the Cold War, Reservists have been increasing their role in this mission area. In a recent report, entitled The Future Naval Reserve: Roles & Missions, Size & Shape, the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs stated that "expanding Reserve Component participation in this area would help protect the capital investment and maintain the infrastructure in peacetime for a potential resurgent undersea threat." This report also notes that, in the absence of a global threat, Reservists are helping to meet today's more limited surveillance needs while training for the future. 
The deployment and maintenance of the undersea components of the IUSS shore systems is accomplished by technicians and engineers operating from IUSS Cable Support Ships. 
Under operational command of the U.S. Navy's Commander Undersea Surveillance (CUS) IUSS shore systems are staffed and operated by uniformed U.S. Navy personnel. System life cycle and engineering support is provided by carreer civil servants (NISE East Code 341) and contractor personnel located at the IUSS Operations Support Center (IOSC). 


Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS)

I have some questions about this system.

1. Have Chinese developed or are developing a similar system?
2. Should Pakistan Navy have something like that, as we have a relatively small area of sea interests. We can develop an effective underwater system, which will be a real asset for us against our arch rival.

Thanks in advance.

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## muse

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> *2. Should Pakistan Navy have something like that, as we have a relatively small area of sea interests. We can develop an effective underwater system, which will be a real asset for us against our arch rival.
> *


*


Excellent, yes I hope Pak Navy will use this technology - this will be an asset against any adversary*


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## Gentelman

Zarbe Momin said:


> What at moment Pakistan Navy has is Scheiße (Bull ****). They have three good Agost 90 B Submarines but lack in numbers, Four good F-22P Frigrates with very very shrot range FM-90 air defence missle system which make F.22P vulnerable (sorry to say but this is fact), Azmat class missle boats are good green water sytem also at moment lack in numbers. 23 mm gun on Azmat class missle boat is automatic but no radar and IR/Optical sensors are coupled with gun. Pakistan Navy do not have blue water fast speed boats for antisubmarine role to assist Frigrates and destroyers. In future no serious plan to have destroyers. No serious plan to have air defence missle system against air attack and in future to counter curise missle attack on naval bases and oil refineries and sea ports. Navy marine corps has just Mistral and Bofors RBS.70, good but not enough, marine corps lack helicopters to transport marine in case of conflict with india. They have not learnt lesson their PC.3 remain air born without suport of fighter jets. India taught us lesson in 1999 in atlantic incident, but pakistan navy didnt learn as usual.



rockra rockra....moneyyyyyyy $$$$$$$$$
provide PN money and they will also buy some aircraft carriers on your wish and also transform into blue water navy if you will wish them to...Just provide them funds..


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## RAMPAGE

hey guys there is an antisubmarine weapon developed by gids SEA SURGE.what is this weapon?some kind of a depth charge??


----------



## Naval Strategist

Post by Niaz: "There were lot of discussions, but fizzled out due to lack of funds"



They were not fizzled out due lack of funds, rather it was the political will which was non-existant. The navy had all things finalized until the Government called it off.


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## Gentelman

I heard that plan of having 4 corvettes by PN is on board...
Will these pe Milgem class or Chinese one??
PN seems intrested in Turkish one and plan is to built 3 of them at home. 
but i suppose a long wait is waiting for the deal to be signed..
maybe after getting new F-22 Ps...


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## S.U.R.B.

Naval Strategist said:


> Post by Niaz: "There were lot of discussions, but fizzled out due to lack of funds"
> 
> 
> 
> They were not fizzled out due lack of funds, rather it was the political will which was non-existant. The navy had all things finalized until the Government called it off.



He's right sir, P.N. can plan whatever she wants.It's the decision and intent of the higher ups that has been discouraging.

USA (you may like it or not) in this time of need ,has supported your old & ailing force to some extent.But obviously they just can (want to) provide you with food in charity.To bite your enemy and to chew it well you need develop your own teeth and fangs for yourself.

"Zara mushkil waqt hae ,Aj kal iradoon ko porra hone sae pehle_ nazar_ lag jatte hae."

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## GHOST RIDER

my question is how do we join Pakistan Navy Aviation?
the whole process of training for the aviation wing


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## Jango

GHOST RIDER said:


> my question is how do we join Pakistan Navy Aviation?
> the whole process of training for the aviation wing



They are trained at Army Aviation School at Gujranwala.


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## GHOST RIDER

nuclearpak said:


> They are trained at Army Aviation School at Gujranwala.



so do we join the navy first?
graduate from Naval academy then go for aviation training?

another question i have for experts is that
Can an army soldier join Navy SSG because it requires 2 years millitary service
and vice versa?


----------



## Cool_Soldier

It will take time to develop more ship in to Pak Navy.How are such assets will enhance our Naval defenc epower.
All the besy pak Navy.


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## Jango

GHOST RIDER said:


> so do we join the navy first?
> graduate from Naval academy then go for aviation training?



Yes...

As for the second question, I am not too sure about it but I think you have to be a naval officer to join SSG(N) since SSGN comes under Navy and hence it is all routed through Naval HQ.

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## GHOST RIDER

thanks for the reply
can you please refer Sir fatman here?


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## Jango

GHOST RIDER said:


> thanks for the reply
> can you please refer Sir fatman here?



Just make a @ sign before his username.. @fatman17


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## GHOST RIDER

@fatman17

another question i have for experts is that Can an army soldier join Navy SSG because it requires 2 years millitary service and vice versa


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## fatman17

GHOST RIDER said:


> @fatman17
> 
> another question i have for experts is that Can an army soldier join Navy SSG because it requires 2 years millitary service and vice versa



i dont think such transfers are allowed - temporary deputation yes esp. in medical field.


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## Inception-06

How many Tankers PN have in service ?


----------



## Nishan_101

Is PN looking to do JV with Germanson SSKs and Small coastal SSKs...


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## muse

Nishan_101 said:


> Is PN looking to do JV with Germanson SSKs and Small coastal SSKs...



Do tell -
build us up
only to let us down?


----------



## fatman17

Ulla said:


> How many Tankers PN have in service ?



to to PN Dimensions thread and find out everything on the PN to your heart's content......God helps those who help themselves...


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## Mugwop

Why isn't pakistan navy interested in midget submarines ??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jessica_Lucas said:


> Why isn't pakistan navy interested in midget submarines ??



PN operates 3+ midget subs operated by SSGN.... built by Karachi shipyard under license...

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## Nishan_101

Does PN interested in Making a new Karachi Ship yard with 3 Dry Docks having the capacity to hold Biggest tankers, containers and even Aircraft Carriers for Maintainence and even building for commercial purposes....


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## alimobin memon

When Are we getting the new Ordered F22p's Claimed to have better Capabilites ?


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## GHOST RIDER

Which is the working Uniform of Pakistan Navy?
I do think that they dont wear the White Uniforms on the ships
or do they?
@fatman17 @nuclearpak


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GHOST RIDER said:


> Which is the working Uniform of Pakistan Navy?
> I do think that they dont wear the White Uniforms on the ships
> or do they?
> @fatman17 @nuclearpak



They used to wear blue... but probably its being changed:







Now:






Not sure though...

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## Imran Khan

yes its new cammo of pn

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## Major Sam

Imran Khan said:


> yes its new cammo of pn



It looks much more decent and better according to environment


----------



## Tk_90

Is PN interested in Stealth Vessels?


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## Dr. Strangelove

Tk_90 said:


> Is PN interested in Stealth Vessels?


pakistan was interested in 
Milgem-class corvette a while back since then no news

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## fatman17

GHOST RIDER said:


> Which is the working Uniform of Pakistan Navy?
> I do think that they dont wear the White Uniforms on the ships
> or do they?
> @fatman17 @nuclearpak



denim blue....


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## jamesseo89

I think now Pakistan Navy should look into designing three things with Chinese help:
3800-4100 Tons Frigate with Multi purpose capability
2100 Tons Corvette with Multi purpose capability
700 Tons FAC with Multi purpose capability

Multi purpose capability means can attack Surface, Sumbmerged and Air too...


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## jamesseo89

Although my wish was to Join with Germans in late 1990s on U-212 and continue to U-214 and so on....


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## Dr. Strangelove

jamesseo89 said:


> I think now Pakistan Navy should look into designing three things with Chinese help:
> 3800-4100 Tons Frigate with Multi purpose capability
> 2100 Tons Corvette with Multi purpose capability
> 700 Tons FAC with Multi purpose capability
> 
> Multi purpose capability means can attack Surface, Sumbmerged and Air too...



we got the tech we can design on our own 

but with this economy we can only dream


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## Gentelman

jamesseo89 said:


> I think now Pakistan Navy should look into designing three things with Chinese help:
> 3800-4100 Tons Frigate with Multi purpose capability
> 2100 Tons Corvette with Multi purpose capability
> 700 Tons FAC with Multi purpose capability
> 
> Multi purpose capability means can attack Surface, Sumbmerged and Air too...



you are @Nishan_101 i can bet
wasn't your 1 id was enough to **** us off??


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## S.Y.A

Gentelman said:


> you are @Nishan_101 i can bet&#8230;&#8230;
> wasn't your 1 id was enough to **** us off??



her jaga ab nishan nazar arha hai apko, is bandy ny numbers to nai diay na ulty seedhy


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## jamesseo89

You are wrong buddy.


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## jamesseo89

But still I would say that PN should concentrate on Building Naval base in Gwadar in South East and South West Zone with each having a Mega shipyard with three megadry docks too.


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## muse

jamesseo89 said:


> But still I would say that PN should concentrate on Building Naval base in Gwadar in South East and South West Zone with each having a Mega shipyard with three megadry docks too.



For what purpose? Why three?


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## jamesseo89

to produce ships and other marines vehicles...


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## Dr. Strangelove

jamesseo89 said:


> to produce ships and other marines vehicles...



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

we dont have

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## fatman17

jamesseo89 said:


> But still I would say that PN should concentrate on Building Naval base in Gwadar in South East and South West Zone with each having a Mega shipyard with three megadry docks too.



oh no not another nishan101.....

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## risingstar

AOA!
Recently i have applied in Pakistan Navy in Supply Branch and given academic and intelligence test. 
Now i cleared the test and they told me that i have to come for medical. Can anyone kindly help me that what are the further steps from which i have to go through???
Looking forward for timely reply.


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## Bamboo Castle

How many auxiliary ships PN has?


----------



## jamesseo89

fatman17 said:


> oh no not another nishan101.....



Why are you saying that. PN needs power... K


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## ali.a

anyone can tell me i have not cnic so how i apply my cnic take one month to ready so plz tell me how i apply in navy


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## Dr. Strangelove

jamesseo89 said:


> Why are you saying that. PN needs power... K



requires funds too 

stop day dreaming


----------



## Alpha1

Can anybody tell me how Pakistan can tackle the Indian SSBNs


----------



## Sumrana Fiaz

To Improve necular power....
To increase the millitary.......
To expands the women power.......
To hire Female staff in navy, in Air force and also millitary


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## ice_man

now that we finally have a new government in ISLAMABAD! will our navy acquire any new SUBS at all??????????


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## Dr. Strangelove

if funds are provided then hell yeah !

but i dont see it coming


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## Mugwop

Which one of these is the best for us?
turkish milgem corvette, german tkms meko a-100 ,french dcn gowind 120


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## Imran Khan

Jessica_L said:


> Which one of these is the best for us?
> turkish milgem corvette, german tkms meko a-100 ,french dcn gowind 120



none of them unless we have TOPT from them and only china can give us that .

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## Inception-06

Helo Gents

What do you know about the Pakistani MRTP-15, it has not the weapon mounts which were always presented on Pakistan Ideas defence show, I mean the ASELSAN STOP stabilized turret with 25 gun.

And How many boats from the listed Typs here Pakistan Navy have inducted ?

Azmat

Jalalat

Mrtp-30 

Jurrat according to Indian reports bharatrakshak it has get not a ASELSAN STOP stabilized turret with 30 mm gun.


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## fatman17

Ulla said:


> Helo Gents
> 
> What do you know about the Pakistani MRTP-15, it has not the weapon mounts which were always presented on Pakistan Ideas defence show, I mean the ASELSAN STOP stabilized turret with 25 gun.
> 
> And How many boats from the listed Typs here Pakistan Navy have inducted ?
> 
> Azmat
> 
> Jalalat
> 
> Mrtp-30
> 
> Jurrat according to Indian reports bharatrakshak it has get not a ASELSAN STOP stabilized turret with 30 mm gun.



1 azmat
1 jalalat
2 mrtp33

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> 1 azmat
> 1 jalalat
> 2 mrtp33




What I did finde out, because of Boat numbers is that we have:

2 Azmat ( one produced in China called the PNS Azmat and one was launched in Pakistan-the PNS Deshat)

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


We have 2 Jalalat and 2 Jurrat, when I get time I will try two post pictures, where you can see the different ship Numbers. And you are right we have two MRTP-33 one hast the Number 04 and the other 03.

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## Inception-06

Ulla said:


> What I did finde out, because of Boat numbers is that we have:
> 
> 2 Azmat ( one produced in China called the PNS Azmat and one was launched in Pakistan-the PNS Deshat)
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> 
> We have 2 Jalalat and 2 Jurrat, when I get time I will try two post pictures, where you can see the different ship Numbers. And you are right we have two MRTP-33 one hast the Number 04 and the other 03.




That make 6 Fast attack craft, all equipped with Anti ship missiles, and I think they carry on board MANPADS for air defence, like in this picture:









In our case it would be the Mistral or a FN-6. But I dont think that they a static installed like the picture above shows it. It would look more like this here









But I must be serious till today after seeing hundreds of picture of this Pakistani Fast attack missile boats I have not seen any indicats on Pakistani ships that they are carrying Manpads. It is only my wish and Idea and it will be still a dream, I dont know why Pakistan Navy is not taking provisionally mesures against the IAF air thread.


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## Inception-06

A serious and cost effective measures against the IAF thread a "Azmat" wich is only eqipped with Air defence missiles ! That would boost the air defence capibility of the Pakistan Navy, when this ships oparating in a swarm with Jalalat etc. !


----------



## Inception-06

What do you think about the MANPAD Idea on Pakistan Navy Ships Gents and Ladies ?


----------



## razgriz19

Ulla said:


> That make 6 Fast attack craft, all equipped with Anti ship missiles, and I think they carry on board MANPADS for air defence, like in this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In our case it would be the Mistral or a FN-6. But I dont think that they a static installed like the picture above shows it. It would look more like this here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I must be serious till today after seeing hundreds of picture of this Pakistani Fast attack missile boats I have not seen any indicats on Pakistani ships that they are carrying Manpads. It is only my wish and Idea and it will be still a dream, I dont know why Pakistan Navy is not taking provisionally mesures against the IAF air thread.



the days of dropping bombs on ships are long, MANPADS won't do much good as the aircraft would deliver its payload a considerable distance away. Much further than the reach of any MANPADS.
the only defence these FAC have is agility and speed.

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## nomi007

*MK 62 Quick Strike mine is deployed from the starboard wing of a P-3C Orion aircraft *
*




*

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## Penguin

razgriz19 said:


> the days of dropping bombs on ships are long, MANPADS won't do much good as the aircraft would deliver its payload a considerable distance away. Much further than the reach of any MANPADS.
> the only defence these FAC have is agility and speed.


Various remote control launchers (e.g. Sandral) exist for e.g. Mistral MANPADS, which give it capability agains missiles.

As for Quickstrike, those are mines, no longer bombs
U.S. Naval Mines - Quickstrike

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## alimobin memon

Advancement of Pak Navy strengthen protection of maritime boundary

So subs are on consideration good good


----------



## alimobin memon

RIM-7 Sea Sparrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the Rim 7 can be reloaded why cant F22P do ? if Im wrong f22p can be reloaded than correct me please .


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## razgriz19

alimobin memon said:


> RIM-7 Sea Sparrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If the Rim 7 can be reloaded why cant F22P do ? if Im wrong f22p can be reloaded than correct me please .



It can be reloaded on type 054 while at sea, but not on F-22P. She would have to come back to the harbor to reload her missiles.


----------



## Penguin

alimobin memon said:


> RIM-7 Sea Sparrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If the Rim 7 can be reloaded why cant F22P do ? if Im wrong f22p can be reloaded than correct me please .



Well it depends on the launcher and assisting gear.

Simple 4 round launcher on e.g. Malaysian Laksamana class can only be reloaded manually. 
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/laksamana/images/laks6.jpg

The Mk-29 NSSM launcher plain can be (re)loaded manually, but with mechanical assistance. 
See 
File:US Navy 040521-N-5821P-001 Combat Systems personnel download a RIM-7 Sea Sparrow missile from a NATO defense weapon system aboard USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63).jpg - Wikimedia Commons
File:US Navy 031021-N-7575W-038 Sailors from combat systems department, CS-7 division, prepare a NATO Sea Sparrow missile to be inserted into its launcher during sea trials aboard USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

But some ships have automatic reloaders or assisted reloading. Compare e.g. Italy's Lupo and Maestrale ships. Both fire the Sparrow derived Aspide but the former relies on mechanically assisted manual reloading while the latter has an automatic reloader.
http://www.marineschepen.nl/marschepen/images/mariscalsucre2kl.jpg 
http://rhk111smilitaryandarmspage.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/maestrale3.jpg
MEKO 360

HQ-7 can also be reloaded manually (Jiangwei II)
http://i.imgur.com/OCCJPf3.jpg
Alternatively, one can use a loading assist device (Luhai, Luhu) (not installed on F22P)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108406&d=1265576146

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## Penguin

razgriz19 said:


> It can be reloaded on type 054 while at sea, but not on F-22P. She would have to come back to the harbor to reload her missiles.


The original pair 054's appear to have a reloader below deck behind the launcher. As does 051B (167 Luhai). The pair of 052s (112 Harbin, 113 Qingdao) have a deckmounted reloader, as does at least 1 upgraded Luda class destroyer (Kaifeng (109) ).
http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/rocnvsplan/Photo-PLAN-Luda2.jpg

On F22P, the missile launcher can be reloaded manually provided calm sea. Afer all, the land systems are also reloaded manually, and it is possible to carry the 84 kg missile with 4-6 people. But it is not easy.

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## alimobin memon

@Penguin Thanks got it . F22p Size is almost identical to type 054 is it possible to install the Reload Assistance Device ?


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## Penguin

alimobin memon said:


> @Penguin Thanks got it . F22p Size is almost identical to type 054 is it possible to install the Reload Assistance Device ?


F22P is max 3200 tons fld, 123x13.4x6 meters
Type 054 is max 4500tons fld, 134x16x6 meters

Relative to F22P, the Type 054(A) has 27-41% greater displacement, 10% greater length and 20% greater beam. I would assume one could come up with a development of the F22P that is lengthened, to have space for a reloading (assist) device. For the existing ships, one would have to cut the hull in to parts and insert a new hull section forward of the bridge to house the reloading (assist) device. That's a rather substantial operation.

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## alimobin memon

Penguin said:


> F22P is max 3200 tons fld, 123x13.4x6 meters
> Type 054 is max 4500tons fld, 134x16x6 meters
> Relative to F22P, the Type 054(A) has 27-41% greater displacement, 10% greater length and 20% greater beam. I would assume one could come up with a development of the F22P that is lengthened, to have space for a reloading (assist) device. For the existing ships, one would have to cut the hull in to parts and insert a new hull section forward of the bridge to house the reloading (assist) device. That's a rather substantial operation.


Thanks


----------



## razgriz19

Penguin said:


> F22P is max 3200 tons fld, 123x13.4x6 meters
> Type 054 is max 4500tons fld, 134x16x6 meters
> 
> Relative to F22P, the Type 054(A) has 27-41% greater displacement, 10% greater length and 20% greater beam. I would assume one could come up with a development of the F22P that is lengthened, to have space for a reloading (assist) device. For the existing ships, one would have to cut the hull in to parts and insert a new hull section forward of the bridge to house the reloading (assist) device. That's a rather substantial operation.



I think PN is happy with 8 missile launching system. If they were to alter the design then it probably be for HQ-16.


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## Penguin

razgriz19 said:


> I think PN is happy with 8 missile launching system. If they were to alter the design then it probably be for HQ-16.


Well, I'ld rather go for e.g a single Mk41 tactical or Sylver A43 with 8 quedpacked cells (e.g. ESSM or CAMM(M) or VT1. Even 16 VL Umkhonto or VL Mica would be good in their own present VLUs. HQ16 is relatively bulky.


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## razgriz19

Penguin said:


> Well, I'ld rather go for e.g a single Mk41 tactical or Sylver A43 with 8 quedpacked cells (e.g. ESSM or CAMM(M) or VT1. Even 16 VL Umkhonto or VL Mica would be good in their own present VLUs. HQ16 is relatively bulky.



yeah, but its very unlikely PN would acquire any equipment outside china. Not till our economy is better at least.


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## Penguin

razgriz19 said:


> yeah, but its very unlikely PN would acquire any equipment outside china. Not till our economy is better at least.


VT1 dimensions:


razgriz19 said:


> yeah, but its very unlikely PN would acquire any equipment outside china. Not till our economy is better at least.


Well, VT1 is quadpacked into Sylver, and VT1 is the missile in Crotale NG. Therefor, its dimensions should be similar to HQ7. Which suggests the possibility the Chinese could come up with a HQ7 version that can be quadpacked into the 8-cell VLU used on 054A and 052D.


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## razgriz19

Penguin said:


> VT1 dimensions:
> 
> Well, VT1 is quadpacked into Sylver, and VT1 is the missile in Crotale NG. Therefor, its dimensions should be similar to HQ7. Which suggests the possibility the Chinese could come up with a HQ7 version that can be quadpacked into the 8-cell VLU used on 054A and 052D.



But no one is putting short range SAM on ships anymore, not even the Chinese. Although any sort of new SAM would be a massive upgrade over the current one.

By the way do you think its possible for PN to get a similar system on Oliver Perry class boats like the Aussies did?


----------



## Penguin

HQ


razgriz19 said:


> But no one is putting short range SAM on ships anymore, not even the Chinese. Although any sort of new SAM would be a massive upgrade over the current one.
> 
> By the way do you think its possible for PN to get a similar system on Oliver Perry class boats like the Aussies did?


HQ7/Crotale is relatively short range. As is Seasparrow. But obviously we are moving to longer range missiles with the spread of supersonic antiship weapons. Hence Sea Sparrow is replaced by ESSM and Crotale by VL Aster in some navies. Increasingly those longer range missile are considered short range, while the range of long range missiles is also increased.

Still, we find short range missiles e.g. RAM, FL3000N/HQ10, Barak 1. And some VL such as VL Mica, VT1. A larger Blok 2 RAM will be provided as quad-packet round for Mk41.

Obviously a Mk41 tactical or equivalent Sylver launcher or other equivalent VLU would be usefull on OHP. Also adopted by Turkey for its G-class upgrade.

I don't see why US would deliver e.g. Harpoon but not Mk41/ESSM, esp. when coupled to Thales radars.

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## Penguin

The Turkish G class frigates undergo a major modernization program. This includes retrofitting of the Turkish GENESIS digital combat management system (_Gemi Entegre Savaş İdare Sistemi_). For 4 ships, the modernization program further includes:

The addition of an 8-cell Mk41 Baseline VII tactical modules for RIM-162 ESSM
The upgrade of the Mk-92 fire control system built by Lockheed Martin (WM-25 under licence from Thales)
The retrofitting of a new advanced Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D air search radar
The addition of a new long range sonar
GABYA CLASS (O. H. Perry) |

Before






After







Before






After






Before





After






For Australia's upgrade see Australia’s Hazard(ous) Frigate Upgrades

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## Rashid Mahmood

Australia's Hazard(ous) Frigate Upgrades

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## Inception-06

How many Type-21 Frigates (amazon class) are still in service with Pakistan Navy, will they get any upgrade ?

I now 6 are in service, but to rumors in PDF some rust in the ports and are out of service.....

@Penguin do you think a upgrade or overhaul for this ships would make any sense or is it possible ?


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## Inception-06

*PNS Sabqat (Huangfeng class missile boat)*





What did happen with this ships, were they scrapped ? Or can we see them in museum or are they stored and put in reserve ?


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## Penguin

Ulla said:


> @Penguin do you think a upgrade or overhaul for this ships would make any sense or is it possible ?


Possible: yes
Sensible: No

PN intends to decommission the ships from their active service between 2010 and 2020. They've been in PN service for 20 years after some 20 years of UK service. More F22P or variants would be a better option (for starters, they all have both AShM and SAM and CIWS)


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## Quwa

Penguin said:


> Well, I'ld rather go for e.g a single Mk41 tactical or Sylver A43 with 8 quedpacked cells (e.g. ESSM or CAMM(M) or VT1. Even 16 VL Umkhonto or VL Mica would be good in their own present VLUs. HQ16 is relatively bulky.


The MBDA CAMM looks promising, I hope it becomes an option for PN when it becomes available for export. Ideally, the F-22P should be equipped with CAMM (32 cells) and RAM for reaction/point-defence. 

Moving forward, whatever frigate or large corvette design PN pursues, they better have it designed around VLS and medium-range SAMs.


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## Penguin

Ulla said:


> Or can we see them in museum or are they stored and put in reserve ?





Mark Sien said:


> The MBDA CAMM looks promising, I hope it becomes an option for PN when it becomes available for export. Ideally, the F-22P should be equipped with CAMM (32 cells) and RAM for reaction/point-defence.
> 
> Moving forward, whatever frigate or large corvette design PN pursues, they better have it designed around VLS and medium-range SAMs.


Agree. 

Sea Ceptor will operate from the SYLVER and Mk41 launchers in a quad-pack configuration to maximise packing density or, for smaller ships, various flexible canister configurations are available. One or two pairs of Mk41 single cell launchers could make a nice upgrade. Sea Ceptor does not require a dedicated Tracking Radar as it uses ship target indication data provided by its surveillance radar to offer protection. So, in theory, you could take your original F22P and just add CAMM, provided a suitable place/volume can be found for VLU and weigh remain within safe margins. E.g. mounted against the front of the stack (would require minor relocation of AShM racks) .

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...s/launchers/Single_Cell_Launcher_brochure.pdf
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/sea-ceptor_datasheet-1379420378.pdf


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## Quwa

Penguin said:


> Agree.
> 
> Sea Ceptor will operate from the SYLVER and Mk41 launchers in a quad-pack configuration to maximise packing density or, for smaller ships, various flexible canister configurations are available. One or two pairs of Mk41 single cell launchers could make a nice upgrade. Sea Ceptor does not require a dedicated Tracking Radar as it uses ship target indication data provided by its surveillance radar to offer protection. So, in theory, you could take your original F22P and just add CAMM, provided a suitable place/volume can be found for VLU and weigh remain within safe margins. E.g. mounted against the front of the stack (would require minor relocation of AShM racks) .
> 
> http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...s/launchers/Single_Cell_Launcher_brochure.pdf
> http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/sea-ceptor_datasheet-1379420378.pdf


I'm sure a VLS based SAM will eventually be incorporated onto the F-22Ps, if not Mk.41 with CAMM then possibly Umkhonto or an equivalent from China (or Pakistan, who knows). That said, CAMM does at least offer another potentially good medium-range SAM system option for future PN frigates and/or corvettes. However, securing Mk.41 VLS launchers may be a challenge given the precarious nature of U.S-Pakistan ties, thankfully there's also SYLVER A43.

It is my dream to see Pakistan actually design (with overseas help, of course) a 3500+ FFG that incorporates not only today's latest systems, but also future solutions. Starting from scratch would be the best way to ensure that the right systems are included from the onset, e.g. SYLVER/Mk.41, CAMM, new-gen AShW and ASW systems, etc. I think a fleet of 6-8 such ships (alongside smaller corvettes, OPVs, boats and a good aviation corps) would be sufficient for the PN.


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## Inception-06

Penguin said:


> Agree.




What does it mean ?


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## Penguin

Ulla said:


> What does it mean ?


That I agree with what the poster posted.


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## Nishan_101

Penguin said:


> That I agree with what the poster posted.


Is PN looking to totally depend on OHPs as 7 more are coming. Then PN should sell their F-22Ps and 3 Agosta-90Bs to Yemen.


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## Quwa

Nishan_101 said:


> Is PN looking to totally depend on OHPs as 7 more are coming. Then PN should sell their F-22Ps and 3 Agosta-90Bs to Yemen.


It won't work that way 

The PN probably considers the OHP to be a good option to immediately replace the Type-21s until they can secure an FFG that's bigger and more capable than the F-22P. The main question many have is whether the PN would succeed in having its OHPs upgraded with systems such as Mk.41 and ESSM, GENESIS, etc. Such capabilities on the OHPs will afford the PN a lot of time in its search for a new and superior frigate. It's just unclear whether the PN will succeed in getting such an upgrade on the OHPs, so let's wait and see.

On that note, no, the PN will not sell the F-22P and Agosta-90B. They'll use them for decades to come


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## Penguin

Nishan_101 said:


> Is PN looking to totally depend on OHPs as 7 more are coming. Then PN should sell their F-22Ps and 3 Agosta-90Bs to Yemen.


No it isn't, OHP was never intended as more than gap filler. ANd it remains to be seen whether 7 more are forthcoming. There are other takers e.g. Taiwan, which wants 8 as well to replace the even older Knox frigates it got from US.


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## razgriz19

Mark Sien said:


> It won't work that way
> 
> The PN probably considers the OHP to be a good option to immediately replace the Type-21s until they can secure an FFG that's bigger and more capable than the F-22P. The main question many have is whether the PN would succeed in having its OHPs upgraded with systems such as Mk.41 and ESSM, GENESIS, etc. Such capabilities on the OHPs will afford the PN a lot of time in its search for a new and superior frigate. It's just unclear whether the PN will succeed in getting such an upgrade on the OHPs, so let's wait and see.
> 
> On that note, no, the PN will not sell the F-22P and Agosta-90B. They'll use them for decades to come



The upgrade depends on whether PN actually gets more ships or not. The agreement is signed, but it will only become effective at the arrival of more OHPs.

*"Havelsan, Müldür said, also has surveyed the Pakistani Alamgir, the country’s lone FFG, and the company has a contingency agreement with Pakistan to upgrade the ships should more frigates be transferred."

*


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## Nishan_101

Penguin said:


> No it isn't, OHP was never intended as more than gap filler. ANd it remains to be seen whether 7 more are forthcoming. There are other takers e.g. Taiwan, which wants 8 as well to replace the even older Knox frigates it got from US.



Which Muslim countries are operating OHPs and how many of them. As, PN can easily convince US to buy from them at a scrap cost and upgrade it with US supplied equipment within Pakistan.


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## Nishan_101

razgriz19 said:


> The upgrade depends on whether PN actually gets more ships or not. The agreement is signed, but it will only become effective at the arrival of more OHPs.
> 
> *"Havelsan, Müldür said, also has surveyed the Pakistani Alamgir, the country’s lone FFG, and the company has a contingency agreement with Pakistan to upgrade the ships should more frigates be transferred."
> *



So how many OHPs are operational world wide...
Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also US can use turkey as well as Pakistan as a scraping place for its old equipments....



Mark Sien said:


> It won't work that way
> 
> The PN probably considers the OHP to be a good option to immediately replace the Type-21s until they can secure an FFG that's bigger and more capable than the F-22P. The main question many have is whether the PN would succeed in having its OHPs upgraded with systems such as Mk.41 and ESSM, GENESIS, etc. Such capabilities on the OHPs will afford the PN a lot of time in its search for a new and superior frigate. It's just unclear whether the PN will succeed in getting such an upgrade on the OHPs, so let's wait and see.
> 
> On that note, no, the PN will not sell the F-22P and Agosta-90B. They'll use them for decades to come



Still I think better for PN was to do JV with China on commercial and Military ship building and also taking help from Turkey as well.


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## Penguin

Some 70


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## Quwa

Nishan_101 said:


> Still I think better for PN was to do JV with China on commercial and Military ship building and also taking help from Turkey as well.


Although more difficult and expensive, it'd be better for Pakistan to design and produce a suitable frigate on its own. I'm not saying this because I want the PN to have its own program for the sake of it, but because it'll give the PN most flexibility and room to decide on the weapon systems and electronics to use on their ships.

Going Chinese may result in having to depend on China 100%, if not for cost reasons then for possible political and technical concerns on the part of non-Chinese suppliers.

A good solution would be to take the JF-17-route in frigates. Work on a general design with China and master the development process within Pakistan so that it'd be Pakistan who will be integrating the subsystems into the design. With that secured, the PN can go around secure systems from Turkey, France, UK and wherever else.

This my proposal:

1. Work with China on a 3500-4000 ton multi-mission frigate design that is capable of housing VLS and other current (as well as future) systems. Make sure the design is stealthy, perhaps to the level of Singapore's Formidable Class or DCNS FM400. Acquire enough expertise to produce the frigate indigenously and undertake most if not all future development associated with it.

2. Work with MBDA on a medium-range SAM solution, perhaps Sylver with Aster 15, maybe Exocet MM40 Block III, MILAS etc.

3. An alternate would be to work with South Africa and others to work in more homegrown SAM, AShM and ASW solutions.

4. Over the long-term make it a plan to form the mainstay the fleet with these frigates, e.g. 8-12.

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## Nishan_101

Mark Sien said:


> Although more difficult and expensive, it'd be better for Pakistan to design and produce a suitable frigate on its own. I'm not saying this because I want the PN to have its own program for the sake of it, but because it'll give the PN most flexibility and room to decide on the weapon systems and electronics to use on their ships.
> 
> Going Chinese may result in having to depend on China 100%, if not for cost reasons then for possible political and technical concerns on the part of non-Chinese suppliers.
> 
> A good solution would be to take the JF-17-route in frigates. Work on a general design with China and master the development process within Pakistan so that it'd be Pakistan who will be integrating the subsystems into the design. With that secured, the PN can go around secure systems from Turkey, France, UK and wherever else.
> 
> This my proposal:
> 
> 1. Work with China on a 3500-4000 ton multi-mission frigate design that is capable of housing VLS and other current (as well as future) systems. Make sure the design is stealthy, perhaps to the level of Singapore's Formidable Class or DCNS FM400. Acquire enough expertise to produce the frigate indigenously and undertake most if not all future development associated with it.
> 
> 2. Work with MBDA on a medium-range SAM solution, perhaps Sylver with Aster 15, maybe Exocet MM40 Block III, MILAS etc.
> 
> 3. An alternate would be to work with South Africa and others to work in more homegrown SAM, AShM and ASW solutions.
> 
> 4. Over the long-term make it a plan to form the mainstay the fleet with these frigates, e.g. 8-12.



Yes you are right too. Although NESCOM, GIDS and SUPARCO along with other Public and Private corps should be working on developing Electrical/Electronics, Mechanical, Chemical and other equipment by doing R&D locally as well as with other countries like China and EU.

More over, PN has and had a great chance of bringing in close KSA, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco to start up a plan for:
5000 Tons Frigate
2500 Tons Corvette
1100 Tons FAC
0300 Tons Missile Craft

Although only KSA, Pakistan, Libya and Algeria would go for 5000 Frigate the rest will have all the other equipment other than this heavy frigate. We can design on our own by taking help from China, Japan/Korea and EU.

Also we need to work on Submarines together:
7000 SSBN
3500 SSKs
1600 SSKs
0700 SSKs - Coastal
0110 Special Force Submarine
Rescue Submarine


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## Thorough Pro

Nishan, where the heck do you pull all these very specific numbers from? For GOD's sake when will you grow up?

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## Penguin

Nishan_101 said:


> Yes you are right too. Although NESCOM, GIDS and SUPARCO along with other Public and Private corps should be working on developing Electrical/Electronics, Mechanical, Chemical and other equipment by doing R&D locally as well as with other countries like China and EU.
> 
> More over, PN has and had a great chance of bringing in close KSA, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco to start up a plan for:
> 5000 Tons Frigate
> 2500 Tons Corvette
> 1100 Tons FAC
> 0300 Tons Missile Craft
> 
> Although only KSA, Pakistan, Libya and Algeria would go for 5000 Frigate the rest will have all the other equipment other than this heavy frigate. We can design on our own by taking help from China, Japan/Korea and EU.
> 
> Also we need to work on Submarines together:
> 7000 SSBN
> 3500 SSKs
> 1600 SSKs
> 0700 SSKs - Coastal
> 0110 Special Force Submarine
> Rescue Submarine



As if ...

1) An 1100 ton FAC !?!?!? FAC's typically dont go over 600 tons. This is rubbish

Looking at the modern ships of the respective navies:

2) Algeria already ordered 2x 3500 ton MEKO A200 (with an option for a further 2, to expand fleet capability) and 3x 2800 ton C28A (to place Soviet era Koni's) as well as a pair of 2000 ton Russian 20382.Kilo Class 877EKM It has 2 Kilo class 877EKM, 2 Kilo class 636M, with 2 more on order. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?

3) Morocco already operates a 6000-7000 ton FREMM frigate. It has three SIGMA frigates from the Netherlands, in 2 variations (a pair of 2075 ton Sigma 9813 and a single 2350 ton Sigma 10513). It has no submarines service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? 

4) The Tunisian Navy is a coastal defence force without the submarine or major combatant capabilities deployed by its neighbours. The Tunesian navy numbers for 2008 were about 4,800 personnel, operating 25 patrol boats and 6 other crafts. Their largest surface combattants are 9 FACs of around 400 ton.Combattante III, Type 143B. It has no submarine service. The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them.

5) The Libyan navy went from 2 Koni 'frigates' in 2006 to 1 in 2012, 2 Nanuchka's in 2006 to none in 2012, 9 (7 operational) combattante II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012, 12 × (4 operational) OSA II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012.
9 × (5 operational) Natya class minesweepers (Type 266ME) in 2006 to 2 in 2012 (1 operational). In 1982 Libya received six Foxtrot-class military submarines from the USSR. However, since 1984, no submarine patrols are reported to have been conducted.In 2011, during the Libyan civil war, one submarine (along with a frigate and a corvette) was captured by the rebels at the Benghazi naval base. So 1 remains in 2012.The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them

6) The Yemeni navy is a 1700 person force, with 2 500t Tarantul 1 and 8 Osa missile boats. Some patrol boats and minesweepers. It has no submarine service The country is in no position to afford or man any of the above mentioned ships or boats. It is investing in modern patrol boats

7) Oman as recently as 2009-2011 acquired 3x 2650ton Khareef class corvette from UK, to supplement its 2 1850 ton Qahir class from the mid 1990s. These are supporte by 4 missile FACs and 3 fast patrol boats. It has no submarine service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs? 

8) UAE has a small force of about 2,500 personnel that maintains well-equipped coastal patrol boats and missile boats (3x new 1650 ton _Abu Dhabi class _corvettes, 6x new 930 tons Baynunah corvettes 2x Lürssen 62 630 ton 'corvettes'; 6 Lürssen TNC-45 260 ton FAC, ). No submarines service.They have just invested in 6=3 new ships, and are in no need for expansion or upgrading.

9) KSA has 3x fairly new (2002-2004) 4725 ton frigates that are modified, enlarged versions of the French La Fayette class. Four frenchbuilt 2,610 tons frigate from the mid 1980s. It has 4 US-built 1100 ton missile corvettes from 1981–83. And 9 US-built 500ton missile armed patrol boats, from 1972-1980. Saudi Arabia wants to buy five German submarines for around €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) and more than two dozen more in the future. It is eying a pair of Arleigh Burke destroyers plus a number of LCS from the US.

Dream on.

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## Nishan_101

Penguin said:


> As if ...
> 
> 1) An 1100 ton FAC !?!?!? FAC's typically dont go over 600 tons. This is rubbish
> 
> Looking at the modern ships of the respective navies:
> 
> 2) Algeria already ordered 2x 3500 ton MEKO A200 (with an option for a further 2, to expand fleet capability) and 3x 2800 ton C28A (to place Soviet era Koni's) as well as a pair of 2000 ton Russian 20382.Kilo Class 877EKM It has 2 Kilo class 877EKM, 2 Kilo class 636M, with 2 more on order. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?
> 
> 3) Morocco already operates a 6000-7000 ton FREMM frigate. It has three SIGMA frigates from the Netherlands, in 2 variations (a pair of 2075 ton Sigma 9813 and a single 2350 ton Sigma 10513). It has no submarines service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships?
> 
> 4) The Tunisian Navy is a coastal defence force without the submarine or major combatant capabilities deployed by its neighbours. The Tunesian navy numbers for 2008 were about 4,800 personnel, operating 25 patrol boats and 6 other crafts. Their largest surface combattants are 9 FACs of around 400 ton.Combattante III, Type 143B. It has no submarine service. The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them.
> 
> 5) The Libyan navy went from 2 Koni 'frigates' in 2006 to 1 in 2012, 2 Nanuchka's in 2006 to none in 2012, 9 (7 operational) combattante II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012, 12 × (4 operational) OSA II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012.
> 9 × (5 operational) Natya class minesweepers (Type 266ME) in 2006 to 2 in 2012 (1 operational). In 1982 Libya received six Foxtrot-class military submarines from the USSR. However, since 1984, no submarine patrols are reported to have been conducted.In 2011, during the Libyan civil war, one submarine (along with a frigate and a corvette) was captured by the rebels at the Benghazi naval base. So 1 remains in 2012.The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them
> 
> 6) The Yemeni navy is a 1700 person force, with 2 500t Tarantul 1 and 8 Osa missile boats. Some patrol boats and minesweepers. It has no submarine service The country is in no position to afford or man any of the above mentioned ships or boats. It is investing in modern patrol boats
> 
> 7) Oman as recently as 2009-2011 acquired 3x 2650ton Khareef class corvette from UK, to supplement its 2 1850 ton Qahir class from the mid 1990s. These are supporte by 4 missile FACs and 3 fast patrol boats. It has no submarine service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?
> 
> 8) UAE has a small force of about 2,500 personnel that maintains well-equipped coastal patrol boats and missile boats (3x new 1650 ton _Abu Dhabi class _corvettes, 6x new 930 tons Baynunah corvettes 2x Lürssen 62 630 ton 'corvettes'; 6 Lürssen TNC-45 260 ton FAC, ). No submarines service.They have just invested in 6=3 new ships, and are in no need for expansion or upgrading.
> 
> 9) KSA has 3x fairly new (2002-2004) 4725 ton frigates that are modified, enlarged versions of the French La Fayette class. Four frenchbuilt 2,610 tons frigate from the mid 1980s. It has 4 US-built 1100 ton missile corvettes from 1981–83. And 9 US-built 500ton missile armed patrol boats, from 1972-1980. Saudi Arabia wants to buy five German submarines for around €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) and more than two dozen more in the future. It is eying a pair of Arleigh Burke destroyers plus a number of LCS from the US.
> 
> Dream on.



But all of the GCC needs to develop their Naval Fleet and especially submarines...

If not wrong KSA and UAE are in great interest in developing their own submarine force then why not invite some more people in it Like Oman and Yemen and go a head for a JV with Germans.


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## fatman17

was this EDA ever delivered to PN?


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## truthseeker2010

Penguin said:


> As if ...
> 
> 1) An 1100 ton FAC !?!?!? FAC's typically dont go over 600 tons. This is rubbish
> 
> Looking at the modern ships of the respective navies:
> 
> 2) Algeria already ordered 2x 3500 ton MEKO A200 (with an option for a further 2, to expand fleet capability) and 3x 2800 ton C28A (to place Soviet era Koni's) as well as a pair of 2000 ton Russian 20382.Kilo Class 877EKM It has 2 Kilo class 877EKM, 2 Kilo class 636M, with 2 more on order. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?
> 
> 3) Morocco already operates a 6000-7000 ton FREMM frigate. It has three SIGMA frigates from the Netherlands, in 2 variations (a pair of 2075 ton Sigma 9813 and a single 2350 ton Sigma 10513). It has no submarines service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships?
> 
> 4) The Tunisian Navy is a coastal defence force without the submarine or major combatant capabilities deployed by its neighbours. The Tunesian navy numbers for 2008 were about 4,800 personnel, operating 25 patrol boats and 6 other crafts. Their largest surface combattants are 9 FACs of around 400 ton.Combattante III, Type 143B. It has no submarine service. The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them.
> 
> 5) The Libyan navy went from 2 Koni 'frigates' in 2006 to 1 in 2012, 2 Nanuchka's in 2006 to none in 2012, 9 (7 operational) combattante II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012, 12 × (4 operational) OSA II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012.
> 9 × (5 operational) Natya class minesweepers (Type 266ME) in 2006 to 2 in 2012 (1 operational). In 1982 Libya received six Foxtrot-class military submarines from the USSR. However, since 1984, no submarine patrols are reported to have been conducted.In 2011, during the Libyan civil war, one submarine (along with a frigate and a corvette) was captured by the rebels at the Benghazi naval base. So 1 remains in 2012.The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them
> 
> 6) The Yemeni navy is a 1700 person force, with 2 500t Tarantul 1 and 8 Osa missile boats. Some patrol boats and minesweepers. It has no submarine service The country is in no position to afford or man any of the above mentioned ships or boats. It is investing in modern patrol boats
> 
> 7) Oman as recently as 2009-2011 acquired 3x 2650ton Khareef class corvette from UK, to supplement its 2 1850 ton Qahir class from the mid 1990s. These are supporte by 4 missile FACs and 3 fast patrol boats. It has no submarine service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?
> 
> 8) UAE has a small force of about 2,500 personnel that maintains well-equipped coastal patrol boats and missile boats (3x new 1650 ton _Abu Dhabi class _corvettes, 6x new 930 tons Baynunah corvettes 2x Lürssen 62 630 ton 'corvettes'; 6 Lürssen TNC-45 260 ton FAC, ). No submarines service.They have just invested in 6=3 new ships, and are in no need for expansion or upgrading.
> 
> 9) KSA has 3x fairly new (2002-2004) 4725 ton frigates that are modified, enlarged versions of the French La Fayette class. Four frenchbuilt 2,610 tons frigate from the mid 1980s. It has 4 US-built 1100 ton missile corvettes from 1981–83. And 9 US-built 500ton missile armed patrol boats, from 1972-1980. Saudi Arabia wants to buy five German submarines for around €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) and more than two dozen more in the future. It is eying a pair of Arleigh Burke destroyers plus a number of LCS from the US.
> 
> Dream on.




Sir what is or should be a ratio of ships to naval personnel?, i mean PN is currently around 31000 but it has around 74 ships but most of them are small combatants like boats or missile craft, but around 20 proper ships.. I think PN is way more overstaffed.


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 23274
> 
> was this EDA ever delivered to PN?


*
nope sir 

US Coast Guard (USCG)*
*Vessel Name: *_USCGC ACUSHNET _
*Commissioned:* _Aug. 23, 1946_
*Decommissioned*: _Mar. 11, 2011_ 

*Final Disposition*: _Sold at government auction (2011)_


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## Penguin

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir what is or should be a ratio of ships to naval personnel?, i mean PN is currently around 31000 but it has around 74 ships but most of them are small combatants like boats or missile craft, but around 20 proper ships.. I think PN is way more overstaffed.


31000 includes what? Maritime Security Agency, Marines, Special Service Group Navy, science and technology organisations


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## truthseeker2010

Penguin said:


> 31000 includes what? Maritime Security Agency, Marines, Special Service Group Navy, science and technology organisations



MSA is pure junk operating 4 very old "ships" and its a force of 5000 again a indication of over-staffing..... marines = 4-5000, SSGN = 1-2000.... if you add up its around 11000 so the rest 20000 for 20 ships is that good?


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## Penguin

truthseeker2010 said:


> MSA is pure junk operating 4 very old "ships" and its a force of 5000 again a indication of over-staffing..... marines = 4-5000, SSGN = 1-2000.... if you add up its around 11000 so the rest 20000 for 20 ships is that good?



Sounds about right to me....

Royal Netherlands navy (known to be keen on low manning concepts)
Size10,500 active duty personnel
850 reserve personnel
4 destroyers

2 frigates
4 offshore patrol vessels

6 minehunters
1 support ship
2 landing platform docks
4 submarines

40 other ships
1 Holland class offshore patrol vessel (undergoing trials)

1 Karel Doorman class support ship (under construction, commissioning in 2015)8 helicopters and 20 on order/being delivered



Country



Germany (like NL, keen on low manning concepts)
Size15,600 personnel
81 ships
52 aircraft
There are approximately 81 ships in commission including; 11 frigates, 5 corvettes, 8 fast attack craft, 5 minesweepers, 10 minehunters, 4 submarines, 23 auxiliary vessels and 15 miscellaneous vessels.


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## truthseeker2010

Penguin said:


> Sounds about right to me....
> 
> Royal Netherlands navy (known to be keen on low manning concepts)
> Size10,500 active duty personnel
> 850 reserve personnel
> 4 destroyers
> 
> 2 frigates
> 4 offshore patrol vessels
> 
> 6 minehunters
> 1 support ship
> 2 landing platform docks
> 4 submarines
> 
> 40 other ships
> 1 Holland class offshore patrol vessel (undergoing trials)
> 
> 1 Karel Doorman class support ship (under construction, commissioning in 2015)8 helicopters and 20 on order/being delivered
> 
> 
> 
> Country
> 
> 
> 
> Germany (like NL, keen on low manning concepts)
> Size15,600 personnel
> 81 ships
> 52 aircraft
> There are approximately 81 ships in commission including; 11 frigates, 5 corvettes, 8 fast attack craft, 5 minesweepers, 10 minehunters, 4 submarines, 23 auxiliary vessels and 15 miscellaneous vessels.



Sir dutch navy 10500 includes 4800 marine corp so the rest 5700 for 22 ships is a very efficient and lean navy, i seriously have doubts and concerns regarding PN manpower size.


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## Penguin

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir dutch navy 10500 includes 4800 marine corp so the rest 5700 for 22 ships is a very efficient and lean navy, i seriously have doubts and concerns regarding PN manpower size.


10 top of the line, low manning combat ships, 4 subs, 2 lpd. 6 mcm.

Compared to 11 frigates, 2 corvettes, 3 mcm, 5 subs. Of older date hence more manpower intensive.
Plus, there are significant technology development institutes ...


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## truthseeker2010

Penguin said:


> 10 top of the line, low manning combat ships, 4 subs, 2 lpd. 6 mcm.
> 
> Compared to 11 frigates, 2 corvettes, 3 mcm, 5 subs. Of older date hence more manpower intensive.
> Plus, there are significant technology development institutes ...



one more thing does PN have any landing ships or other supporting equipment for a marine force of 4 to 5 thousand, the clear answer is no, and do they have any plans for it ..... i don't think so given the current conditions...... and they are planning to raise a full corp of around 45000..... i mean this is completely insane for our navy to have a marine corp given its already limited resources.... the role of naval infantry should be for pak army...... i am clueless of how PN high command thinks and formulates.


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## Mighty Caty

If PN wanted OHP, I don't think US is the best place to source it, Australia will sell their OHP soon (Around 2016) when the new Hobart class and Canberra Class LHD enter service, they will sell their OHP dirt cheap

PN should also consider MEKO200 class ship, they are also quite capable and I heard some country is selling them.


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## Penguin

Mighty Caty said:


> If PN wanted OHP, I don't think US is the best place to source it, Australia will sell their OHP soon (Around 2016) when the new Hobart class and Canberra Class LHD enter service, they will sell their OHP dirt cheap


I don't think so, considering how much the aussies spent on it.

The *Adelaide class* is a ship class of six guided missile frigates constructed in Australia and the United States of America for service in the Royal Australian Navy. The class is based on the United States Navy's _Oliver Hazard Perry_ class frigates, but modified for Australian requirements. The first four vessels were built in the United States, while the other two were constructed in Australia.The first ship entered service in November 1980, and four of the six ships are active as of 2012. _Canberra_ and _Adelaide_ were paid off in 2005 and 2008 respectively, and later sunk as dive wrecks.The four surviving ships will be replaced by the _Hobart_ class air-warfare destroyer from 2016 onwards.

In the mid-1990s, the Australian government commenced SEA 1390, also known as the FFG Upgrade Project.[8] Originally costing A$1 billion, which has expanded to A$1.46 billion, the project includes improvements to the combat and fire control system, the sonar suite, and the air defence missiles.[8] The upgrade was for four ships and intended to expand their service life to approximately 2020.[8] The project cost was partly offset by the decommissioning of the two oldest units.After the refit, the ships are capable of firing SM-2MR and RGM-84 Harpoon missiles from the Mark 13 launcher.[8] An 8-cell Mark 41 Vertical Launch System for Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile has also been installed forward of the Mark 13 launcher.[8] The Phalanx CIWS was upgraded to Block 1B,[_verification needed_] and the torpedoes, missiles, and other ship-mounted weapons were upgraded to the latest versions.The RAN and Thales subsequently claimed that the two upgraded ships were the "most capable ships in the history of the RAN".



Mighty Caty said:


> PN should also consider MEKO200 class ship, they are also quite capable and I heard some country is selling them.


.Yeah, Germany! (South Africa has the only 4 operational ships and is not selling them, Algeria has a pair on order, Poland ordered smaller A100s)


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## Hakan

Penguin said:


> The Turkish G class frigates undergo a major modernization program. This includes retrofitting of the Turkish GENESIS digital combat management system (_Gemi Entegre Savaş İdare Sistemi_). For 4 ships, the modernization program further includes:
> 
> The addition of an 8-cell Mk41 Baseline VII tactical modules for RIM-162 ESSM
> The upgrade of the Mk-92 fire control system built by Lockheed Martin (WM-25 under licence from Thales)
> The retrofitting of a new advanced Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D air search radar
> The addition of a new long range sonar
> GABYA CLASS (O. H. Perry) |
> 
> Before
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Australia's upgrade see Australia’s Hazard(ous) Frigate Upgrades


@MrTopal27


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## Nishan_101

Just I wish that PN is looking in to taking Help from China on Submarines with Partners like Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.


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## Penguin

Nishan_101 said:


> Just I wish that PN is looking in to taking Help from China on Submarines with Partners like Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.


Morocco and Tunesia have no submarine service. Libya may still have a single ancient Russian Foxtrot left. Algeria has been and is acquiring Kilo's from Russia (total now 6). Egypt is replacing its 4 improved (Harpoon equipped) Russian Romeo class with 209s from Germany. I don't see how these countries would partner and if/when they did, why they would involve China (Russia and Germany are at least as likely as partners).


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## fatman17

Penguin said:


> Morocco and Tunesia have no submarine service. Libya may still have a single ancient Russian Foxtrot left. Algeria has been and is acquiring Kilo's from Russia (total now 6). Egypt is replacing its 4 improved (Harpoon equipped) Russian Romeo class with 209s from Germany. I don't see how these countries would partner and if/when they did, why they would involve China (Russia and Germany are at least as likely as partners).


 
you actually take this guy N101 seriously?

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## Nishan_101

Penguin said:


> Morocco and Tunesia have no submarine service. Libya may still have a single ancient Russian Foxtrot left. Algeria has been and is acquiring Kilo's from Russia (total now 6). Egypt is replacing its 4 improved (Harpoon equipped) Russian Romeo class with 209s from Germany. I don't see how these countries would partner and if/when they did, why they would involve China (Russia and Germany are at least as likely as partners).



But why not? I am sure once they try they can join in.


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## Penguin

Nishan_101 said:


> But why not? I am sure once they try they can join in.


Egypt and Algeria have already chosen other routes. Which leaves Morocco, Tunisia and Libya. Why would these navies invest in developing a submarine when there are several options (existing subs, tried and tested) available to them ? It would be far more cost-effective for such small navies - if they wanted a submarine service - to buy abroad than to develop domestically.


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## Nishan_101

Penguin said:


> Egypt and Algeria have already chosen other routes. Which leaves Morocco, Tunisia and Libya. Why would these navies invest in developing a submarine when there are several options (existing subs, tried and tested) available to them ? It would be far more cost-effective for such small navies - if they wanted a submarine service - to buy abroad than to develop domestically.


@Penguin I respect your comment but Navies are looking to expand and in submarine fleet all over the world. Even if PN had money they would look towards more submarines although PN had missed the chance of producing 6 Agosta-90Bs instead of 3.

But I would still say that doing JV with China will be helpful in the long run as well.


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## rockstar08

Nishan_101 said:


> @Penguin I respect your comment but Navies are looking to expand and in submarine fleet all over the world. Even if PN had money they would look towards more submarines although PN had missed the chance of producing 6 Agosta-90Bs instead of 3.
> 
> But I would still say that doing JV with China will be helpful in the long run as well.



your numbers are always far beyond reality ... and also un necessary ...
Pakistan coast line is small and we should build a large fleet , we have no intentions to invade any country ..
we need a proper defense fleet ..that can be like this ...

10-12 frigate
2-3 Chinese guided missile destroyer on lease ..
6-8 Subs
5-6 Corvette
and less than 10 FAC would be enough ...

any senior member can correct my numbers

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## fatman17

PN Budget:
12 Surface Vessels (DDG/FFG)
8 Submarines
3 Midget-Subs
3 Minehunters
10-12 FAC (off-shore)
8-10 patrol boats (inshore)
42-44 ships of all kinds
does not include support vessels (tankers, tugs etc)
does not include PN Aviation assets.
with a budget of roughly $400-500m/year, thats all one can afford to operate


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> PN Budget:
> 12 Surface Vessels (DDG/FFG)
> 8 Submarines
> 3 Midget-Subs
> 3 Minehunters
> 10-12 FAC (off-shore)
> 8-10 patrol boats (inshore)
> 42-44 ships of all kinds
> does not include support vessels (tankers, tugs etc)
> does not include PN Aviation assets.
> with a budget of roughly $400-500m/year, thats all one can afford to operate



But Sìr if the navy tried harder and shoved a frigate far up tbe rear end of the profligate politicians then perhaps the economy might Improve and then we could get the martians to smuggle all the gold on Mars and dump it in Pakistan and then we could ask the Trontons from Planet X84zy to take one ounce of gold and replace it with 10 ounces of Platinum and then we can do a JV with russia China and whoever the hell else we can think of and build rivers of viagra and Import all the ladies of the world and then @@@#×÷#$%/=+ad nauseum. And then the chair of TT will perhaps not call me mate and tell me in a very condescending manner not to give such a pile of shit a negative rating. Sir how is that for a rant from an old man. 
Sir it may be time for me to go but it annoys me the way this forum has gone to the dogs and the cats and all the rest. I hope you enjoy the post and understand the thoughts it is written with.
kindest regards. 
Araz

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## Penguin

araz said:


> But Sìr if the navy tried harder and shoved a frigate far up tbe rear end of the profligate politicians then perhaps the economy might Improve and then we could get the martians to smuggle all the gold on Mars and dump it in Pakistan and then we could ask the Trontons from Planet X84zy to take one ounce of gold and replace it with 10 ounces of Platinum and then we can do a JV with russia China and whoever the hell else we can think of and build rivers of viagra and Import all the ladies of the world and then @@@#×÷#$%/=+ad nauseum. And then the chair of TT will perhaps not call me mate and tell me in a very condescending manner not to give such a pile of shit a negative rating. Sir how is that for a rant from an old man.
> Sir it may be time for me to go but it annoys me the way this forum has gone to the dogs and the cats and all the rest. I hope you enjoy the post and understand the thoughts it is written with.
> kindest regards.
> Araz



 Very good!


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## EagleEyes

araz said:


> But Sìr if the navy tried harder and shoved a frigate far up tbe rear end of the profligate politicians then perhaps the economy might Improve and then we could get the martians to smuggle all the gold on Mars and dump it in Pakistan and then we could ask the Trontons from Planet X84zy to take one ounce of gold and replace it with 10 ounces of Platinum and then we can do a JV with russia China and whoever the hell else we can think of and build rivers of viagra and Import all the ladies of the world and then @@@#×÷#$%/=+ad nauseum. And then the chair of TT will perhaps not call me mate and tell me in a very condescending manner not to give such a pile of shit a negative rating. Sir how is that for a rant from an old man.
> Sir it may be time for me to go but it annoys me the way this forum has gone to the dogs and the cats and all the rest. I hope you enjoy the post and understand the thoughts it is written with.
> kindest regards.
> Araz


 
Nishan and his multiple ID is banned permanently. If you have suggestions to improve feel free to post where you know it will be read.

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## Zarvan

WebMaster said:


> Nishan and his multiple ID is banned permanently. If you have suggestions to improve feel free to post where you know it will be read.


Why you banned Nishan Permanently ?


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## fatman17

araz said:


> But Sìr if the navy tried harder and shoved a frigate far up tbe rear end of the profligate politicians then perhaps the economy might Improve and then we could get the martians to smuggle all the gold on Mars and dump it in Pakistan and then we could ask the Trontons from Planet X84zy to take one ounce of gold and replace it with 10 ounces of Platinum and then we can do a JV with russia China and whoever the hell else we can think of and build rivers of viagra and Import all the ladies of the world and then @@@#×÷#$%/=+ad nauseum. And then the chair of TT will perhaps not call me mate and tell me in a very condescending manner not to give such a pile of shit a negative rating. Sir how is that for a rant from an old man.
> Sir it may be time for me to go but it annoys me the way this forum has gone to the dogs and the cats and all the rest. I hope you enjoy the post and understand the thoughts it is written with.
> kindest regards.
> Araz


 
we are the last of the dinosaurs sirjee....

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## Quwa

If only the corrupt politicians and their enablers (in the military, bureaucracy, business community, etc) just called it quits and left for their foreign-based homes. Everyone wins.


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## Malghani




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## Commandant

Hi 

I have a question about Pakistan Navy , anybody can help me ?

I was wondering if anybody knows anything about 2 former Destroyers of Iranian navy that Pakistan bought in early 90s

they were ex USN destroyers ( USS Zellars (DD-777) and USS Stormes (DD-780) ) that were in service in IRN under the names of _Babr_ (D61) and Palang (D62) 

I was wondering if you could tell me if they are in service or they were bought just to be scrapped

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## Rashid Mahmood

Commandant said:


> Hi
> 
> I have a question about Pakistan Navy , anybody can help me ?
> 
> I was wondering if anybody knows anything about 2 former Destroyers of Iranian navy that Pakistan bought in early 90s
> 
> they were ex USN destroyers ( USS Zellars (DD-777) and USS Stormes (DD-780) ) that were in service in IRN under the names of _Babr_ (D61) and Palang (D62)
> 
> I was wondering if you could tell me if they are in service or they were bought just to be scrapped




Pakistan Navy never bought any ships from Iran.

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## Commandant

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Pakistan Navy never bought any ships from Iran.



so we should assume that Pakistan bought these Destroyers just to scrap them , not for navy ?

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## Rashid Mahmood

Commandant said:


> so we should assume that Pakistan bought these Destroyers just to scrap them , not for navy ?



Pakistan never bought any ship from Iran.

Maybe some private ship-breaking company bought them to be scrapped who knows.

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## Penguin

The UNITED STATES NAVY SHIP U.S.S. ZELLARS DD777 was laid down on 24 December 1943at Seattle Washington, by the Todd-Pacific Shipyards, Incorporated, launched on 19 July 1944, and commisioned on 25 October 1944, Commander Blinn Van Mater in command. In March 1945, she put to sea with a portion of the Okinowa invasion force. Zellars was decommissioned on 19 March 1971, and her name was struck from the Navy list. Renamed Babr (DDG-7) she was commissioned in the Iranian Navy on 12 October 1973 at the Philadelphia Navy Shipyard.As of 1998, she remained active with the Islamic Republic of Iran Navy, though non-operational since 1994 and awaiting scrapping.
Zellars History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Zellars_(DD-777)
Destroyer Photo Index DD-777 USS ZELLARS

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## Penguin

*Operational and Building Data Laid down by Todd Shipyards, Seattle. February 15 1944.
Launched November 4 1944 and commissioned January 27 1945.
Completed FRAM upgrade January 1961.
Decommissioned December 5 1970.
Stricken February 16 1972.
To Iran February 16 1972, renamed Palang.
Fate Still active in Iranian Navy (Un-operational since 1994 to be scrapped).*
Destroyer Photo Index DD-780 USS STORMES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stormes_(DD-780)
Babr Class Destroyers: Uss Zellars, Uss Stormes, Iranian Destroyer Palang ... - Google Boeken

USS Stormes (DD-780) in August 22 1973 as the Iranian Palang D62 in Iranian Navy 




A port bow view of the Allen M. Sumner class Iranian destroyer ITS PALANG (D 62) underway. The PALANG is the former USS STORMES (DD 780), 01/01/1987

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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> PN Budget:
> 
> with a budget of roughly $400-500m/year, thats all one can afford to operate



As of 2014 the budget is close to $1b but expect extra to be paid for pending or other loans taken from China.


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## S.Y.A

Luftwaffe said:


> As of 2014 the budget is_* close to $1b *_but expect extra to be paid for pending or other loans taken from China.


i thought i heard it was around $700million.


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## Luftwaffe

S.Y.A said:


> i thought i heard it was around $700million.



7 billion dollars over all budget out of which some 900ish million PN, 3.8ish billion Pak Army and around 300 million for Pays etc for tri arm and close to 2 billion for PAF.


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## S.Y.A

Luftwaffe said:


> 7 billion dollars over all budget out of which some 900ish million PN, 3.8ish billion Pak Army and around 300 million for Pays etc for tri arm and close to 2 billion for PAF.


Rs 700 billion allocatedfor defence, up by 12%


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## Commandant

Penguin said:


> The UNITED STATES NAVY SHIP U.S.S. ZELLARS DD777 was laid down on 24 December 1943at Seattle Washington, by the Todd-Pacific Shipyards, Incorporated, launched on 19 July 1944, and commisioned on 25 October 1944, Commander Blinn Van Mater in command. In March 1945, she put to sea with a portion of the Okinowa invasion force. Zellars was decommissioned on 19 March 1971, and her name was struck from the Navy list. Renamed Babr (DDG-7) she was commissioned in the Iranian Navy on 12 October 1973 at the Philadelphia Navy Shipyard.As of 1998, she remained active with the Islamic Republic of Iran Navy, though non-operational since 1994 and awaiting scrapping.
> Zellars History
> 
> Destroyer Photo Index DD-777 USS ZELLARS




tnx , I know all this 
but there are some rumors about these destroyers , that Pakistan bought them and they entered PN
even some people claim that they've seen them in Pakistan many years ago
which I believe they've mistaken babr and palang with PNS Nazim ...

by the way , tnx again


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## Luftwaffe

S.Y.A said:


> Rs 700 billion allocatedfor defence, up by 12%



Yes equals 7 billion USD [7009814000.000 US Dollar].


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## S.Y.A

Luftwaffe said:


> Yes equals 7 billion USD [7009814000.000 US Dollar].


o bhai, that is the total defence budget. look at the breakup between all the forces. did you even read the article?


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## Luftwaffe

S.Y.A said:


> o bhai, that is the total defence budget. look at the breakup between all the forces. did you even read the article?



O bhai I read that link and I have couple of other links that says up to 900 million for Navy to the earlier 700-725m...looking at Navy's procurement on this scale I am satisfied 900 million is allotted is this for 2014-2015 only.


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## Penguin

Commandant said:


> tnx , I know all this
> but there are some rumors about these destroyers , that Pakistan bought them and they entered PN
> even some people claim that they've seen them in Pakistan many years ago
> which I believe they've mistaken babr and palang with PNS Nazim ...
> 
> by the way , tnx again


That would seem likely. The Nazim is a Gearing class destroyer. The Iranian ships are Allen M Sumner class destoyers. Both types are very similar to begin with._From the Sumner-class was spawned the Gearing-class. _





_ In simple words, the Gearing-class was just a long-hull version of the Sumner-class. As can be seen from the picture above, the "hull plug" as it was known, was built between the two funnels. The reason: give the ships longer legs by giving them the opportunity to embark more fuel. The Gearing-class, because of its larger displacement lost some speed, compensated by an extra 1,000 nautical mile-range. Secondary armament was slightly reduced_

Nazim is the former USS _Wiltsie_ (DD-716). In November 1961 she underwent Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization (FRAM) alterations. She received an enclosed bridge; a helicopter hangar and landing platform; triple-mounted Mk. 32 torpedo tubes; an ASROC launcher; and late model radar and sonar. She also received many improvements in accommodations for both officers and enlisted men.

The FRAM MK I program was designed primarily for the _Gearing_-class destroyers. This upgrade included rebuilding the ship's superstructure, engines, electronic systems, radar, sonar, and weapons. The second twin 5" gun mount and all previous AA guns and ASW equipment were removed. Upgraded systems included SQS-23 sonar, SPS-10 surface search radar, 2 × triple Mark 32 torpedo tubes, 8-cell Anti-Submarine Rocket (ASROC) box launcher, and one QH-50C DASH ASW drone helicopter, with its own landing pad and hangar. Both the Mk 32 torpedo tubes and ASROC launched Mk 44 homing ASW torpedoes.

Gearing class destroyers before and after FRAM modernization





The very similar FRAM MK II program was designed primarily for the Sumner class destroyers, but was used to upgrade the _Gearing_ class as well. This upgrade program included life-extension refurbishment, a new radar system, ASROC (not fitted on the _Sumner_s), Mk. 32 torpedo tubes, DASH ASW drone, and most importantly, a new variable depth sonar (VDS).

*USS Wiltsie > Gearing Class FRAM I, Group B, Tall Mast
Tin Can Sailors - The National Association of Destroyer Veterans





USS Zellars/Stormes > Allen M. Sumner Class FRAM II
Tin Can Sailors - The National Association of Destroyer Veterans




*
The similarities in configuration after FRAM are Obvious. Still, some equally Obvious differences: VDS or not, ASROC or not, B-Turret or not.

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## Basel

today there was news on tv that Russian Navy Chief has met with Joint Chief of staff, so can we expect some stuff from Russia for PN?


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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> 7 billion dollars over all budget out of which some 900ish million PN, 3.8ish billion Pak Army and around 300 million for Pays etc for tri arm and close to 2 billion for PAF.



this budget covers salaries, pensions, operations and maintenance of equipment leaving very little for new capital investments. lets not assume otherwise.


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## Interceptor2014

Yeh sub france ne loan k paison se di then. Sub bhi unki paise bhi unke, hamen loan parra tha. So foreign reserve doesnt matter. Its all your relations with others 

Source: SSK Agosta 90B Class Attack Submarine Information Pool | Page 9

So PN can easily return these subs to France after acquiring 6-9+ SSK from China very soon.


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## HRK

— The new CM-708UNA submarine-launched cruise missile made its debut at Airshow China

— The 128-kilometer range missile is the product of the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC), 

— The CM-708UNA is launched by *torpedo tube *and is *applicable for various submarines* for targeting medium-to-large ships and inshore targets. 

— There are questions over whether the CM-708UNA is actually a new submarine-launched cruise missile or simply a redesignation of the current YJ family of cruise missiles *now deployed on submarines with the Chinese and Pakistan navies.*
*
China Shows Off New Sub-Launched Missile at Zhuhai | Defense News | defensenews.com
=============================================*
Though I highly doubt that we are using any such system of Chinese origin in our subs, but want to confirm about the same before to reach any definitive conclusion.

@fatman17 , @Horus , @Rashid Mahmood .... your opinion plz ....

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## Kompromat

I got no info on this. Don't know why would we need it when we already have Exocests and Harpoons on our subs.

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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> I got no info on this. Don't know why would we need it when we already have Exocests and Harpoons on our subs.


Maybe will be integrated on six chinese sub that we want to seek

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## Rashid Mahmood

HRK said:


> View attachment 156242
> 
> 
> — The new CM-708UNA submarine-launched cruise missile made its debut at Airshow China
> 
> — The 128-kilometer range missile is the product of the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC),
> 
> — The CM-708UNA is launched by *torpedo tube *and is *applicable for various submarines* for targeting medium-to-large ships and inshore targets.
> 
> — There are questions over whether the CM-708UNA is actually a new submarine-launched cruise missile or simply a redesignation of the current YJ family of cruise missiles *now deployed on submarines with the Chinese and Pakistan navies.
> 
> China Shows Off New Sub-Launched Missile at Zhuhai | Defense News | defensenews.com
> =============================================*
> Though I highly doubt that we are using any such system of Chinese origin in our subs, but want to confirm about the same before to reach any definitive conclusion.
> 
> @fatman17 , @Horus , @Rashid Mahmood .... your opinion plz ....



I don't think so that we are using any such system.

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> View attachment 156242
> 
> 
> — The new CM-708UNA submarine-launched cruise missile made its debut at Airshow China
> 
> — The 128-kilometer range missile is the product of the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC),
> 
> — The CM-708UNA is launched by *torpedo tube *and is *applicable for various submarines* for targeting medium-to-large ships and inshore targets.
> 
> — There are questions over whether the CM-708UNA is actually a new submarine-launched cruise missile or simply a redesignation of the current YJ family of cruise missiles *now deployed on submarines with the Chinese and Pakistan navies.
> 
> China Shows Off New Sub-Launched Missile at Zhuhai | Defense News | defensenews.com
> =============================================*
> Though I highly doubt that we are using any such system of Chinese origin in our subs, but want to confirm about the same before to reach any definitive conclusion.
> 
> @fatman17 , @Horus , @Rashid Mahmood .... your opinion plz ....


 
this could be offered with the S-20 but PN will opt for western systems.

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## SipahSalar

What became of our Agosta submarine manufacturing capability? Seems to me that we built 3 and then kind of stopped talking about it and forgot everything. ARe they considered defective or obsolete? Why isnt PN making more of them?


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## Sulman Badshah

SipahSalar said:


> What became of our Agosta submarine manufacturing capability? Seems to me that we built 3 and then kind of stopped talking about it and forgot everything. ARe they considered defective or obsolete? Why isnt PN making more of them?


because PN is looking for more advance, stealth chinese AIP subs .. they will also accommodate the SLCM

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## SipahSalar

Sulman Badshah said:


> because PN is looking for more advance, stealth chinese AIP subs .. they will also accommodate the SLCM



Agosta can also have an AIP, in fact all 3 will be upgraded to have it. If they werent going to make any submarines in pakistan what was all the fuss about? They should have just let france build them all, it was a waste of resources to set up manufacturing capacity in Pak and then not use it.


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## Sulman Badshah

SipahSalar said:


> Agosta can also have an AIP, in fact all 3 will be upgraded to have it. If they werent going to make any submarines in pakistan what was all the fuss about? They should have just let france build them all, it was a waste of resources to set up manufacturing capacity in Pak and then not use it.


the main thing is designing of the new sub ...which Pakistan is not yet capable of 

Chinese sub are next generation and have more stealthy features which Agosta don't poses


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## Thorough Pro

We just assembled them from kits imported from France. To make more, we will need to import the kits again. 



SipahSalar said:


> What became of our Agosta submarine manufacturing capability? Seems to me that we built 3 and then kind of stopped talking about it and forgot everything. ARe they considered defective or obsolete? Why isnt PN making more of them?

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## M.AsfandYar

ThunderCat said:


> I didn't mean it like that. I meant what exactly is their mode of transport for their senior officers on the ground or do they use regular cars. I've been looking for pictures of Pakistani navy jeeps and trucks online but i can't find any so i'm assuming they use regular but fancy vehicles.


Lol officers use their own vehicles. Admirals to commanders here in Naval anchrage they all use their own vehicles even won duty. No protocols too, and nothing fancy about thier vehicles too.


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## ThunderCat

Well that's a good thing.


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## araz

People.
Please understand the logic behind the process. The capabilities acquired for any platform has its own advantages. Back in the day when the french and Pakistan enjoyed a more closer relationship a lot of CAD designing software and computers were acquired for use. These have been used extensively mainly in the designing of JFT amongst other things.
As to the designing of subs I dont think we even produce the steel required for sub manufacturing. However we did gain experience in welding of subs which is an art in its own self if Mr HKhan of Pakdef.info is to be believed. Everything came in parts and we just assembled them. If we want more we have to ask the french to manufacture more except that they have moved on to Scorpenes so Augustas are not being built. Due to the recent lovey dovey the french have gotten upto with our neighbours I don't think they would feel comfortable giving us anything substantial in any case. Also french products are quite expensive and our coffers are empty so it is not something which PN would look forward to as well
My 2 paisas worth
Araz

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## jose andress

*I just want to know if their is any way , method or technique to avoid sonars for frogmen undersea ? *

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## black-hawk_101

As PN is looking to have its own fighter fleet and may be K-8 and Super Mushak too to have their own training as well. So, why not PN try to buy Jordan-Bahrain-Turkish-Thailand AH-1 Cobras with upgrades from EU or Turkey? And also look towards old operators like Spain and other operators for spares? And Also why not PAA ones?

PAA-Bahrain-Jordan-Turkey-Thailand-Spain-US(U.S. Forest Service, Florida Department of Forestry) and may be later on Japan and Korea too.

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## mosu

black-hawk_101 said:


> As PN is looking to have its own fighter fleet and may be K-8 and Super Mushak too to have their own training as well. So, why not PN try to buy Jordan-Bahrain-Turkish-Thailand AH-1 Cobras with upgrades from EU or Turkey? And also look towards old operators like Spain and other operators for spares? And Also why not PAA ones?
> 
> PAA-Bahrain-Jordan-Turkey-Thailand-Spain-US(U.S. Forest Service, Florida Department of Forestry) and may be later on Japan and Korea too.


Nishan thats u

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## Ijaz Ahmad Zarrar

indeed

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## A2Z

Any news about the subs deal with china?

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## black-hawk_101

Why not some of these for Coast guards as well as can be used in rivers and lakes too:

*ShinMaywa US-2*

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## Bilal Khan 777

A2Z said:


> Any news about the subs deal with china?


Any deal would be confidential, and not for public release.

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## sohail.ishaque

what is Magrav Tech ?

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## kaku1

black-hawk_101 said:


> Why not some of these for Coast guards as well as can be used in rivers and lakes too:
> 
> *ShinMaywa US-2*


Isnt the deal is already going on with India?

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## A2Z

Apart from the absence of AIP what are the other differences between S-20 and Yuan class?


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## black-hawk_101

Why PN is buying another 4 ATR-72s???? is P-3Cs aren't enough??? And if they are looking to increase then can we see such fleet???
12-16 P-3Cs
12-16 ATR-72s
6-8 ATR-42s for Coast Guards???

As ATR-72s and ATR-42s can be good for deploying the SSGNs any where. I am sure that if these ATR-72s and ATR-42s would be upgraded as MPA then there would be some space left for the SSGNs that can deployed to a location.


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## black-hawk_101

Is it possible that PN will acquire:
Sea Stallions
NH-90/AW-101
Black Hawk
Dauphin Class/Augusta Westland and phase out Chinese Z-9s?
AS-550 Fennec - Dual Engine Naval Version

Also, about the frigate:
13 UK's Frigate + 3 from Chile
5-7 more OHPs as F-22P is not enough for this role


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## stalintom

Wow... The video is really awesome. I like it very much


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## Zarbe Momin

stalintom said:


> Wow... The video is really awesome. I like it very much


Pakistan navy needs badly long range air defence systems on their Frigrates. On missel boats radar controled antiaircraft systems and short range radar guided surface to air missel systems as air defence are missing.....anza systems can also be integrated with automization.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Zarbe Momin said:


> Pakistan navy needs badly long range air defence systems on their Frigrates. On missel boats radar controled antiaircraft systems and short range radar guided surface to air missel systems as air defence are missing.....anza systems can also be integrated with automization.



PN requires a medium range SAM system to protect the fleet. However, you mention long range and then suggest Anza? You need to check on your vocal of LOMAD vs. SHORAD and VSHORAD.


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## Taha Samad

As discussed many times on this forum F22P is a decent all-round platform but one weakness is it lacks medium range air defense missiles. 

So given this background, is it possible to add HQ-16: 6 or 8 cell external vertical launcher to F22P frigate?

As for space on-board F22P, I can think of two possibilities:

C-802 cells are moved closer to each other. There seems to be some space available between bridge and chimney.
Just behind chimney.
HQ-16, 6 x cell launcher in upright position






F22P Frigate:

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## Tank131

Taha Samad said:


> As discussed many times on this forum F22P is a decent all-round platform but one weakness is it lacks medium range air defense missiles.
> 
> So given this background, is it possible to add HQ-16: 6 or 8 cell external vertical launcher to F22P frigate?
> 
> As for space on-board F22P, I can think of two possibilities:
> 
> C-802 cells are moved closer to each other. There seems to be some space available between bridge and chimney.
> Just behind chimney.
> HQ-16, 6 x cell launcher in upright position
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F22P Frigate:



I have mentioned similar albeit slightly different changes in the last few months. If we take the Algerian Navy's C28A (itself a derivative of the F22P) as a starting point, remove the deck that holds the FM90 and make it flush, that area is large enough to hold minimum of 16 to probably up to 32 cells for a vls system. Now depending on what is below deck, part of the cells may need to sit above deck, but this is also done on numerous vessels including the Sa'ar 5 (which is 1/2 the size and has a 16 cell capacity for barak 8 med-long range SAM). AND Adelaide/ G-class frigates of Australia and Turkey (both OHPs). The C28A already moved the exhaust stacks to the waterline enabling enough room for a secondary mast with sensors and radar egg which houses the type 364 air search radar. The Smart S mk2 is the long tange air and surface surveillance radar. I would move the C802 boxes into this are below deck and hide them behind doors to imprpve the rcs and there they were located i would plce another VLS or if that was not feasible, would put two 24 cell FL-3000N launchers. Instead of the hhq-16 i would try for CAMM/ Sea Ceptor from UK or Italy and if they wont sell it (though Italy sold the Aspide/Spada 2000 system so im sure they would sell this as well) id go for umkhonto-r. Both are said to be quad packable and 60km fire and forget. If PN had 24-32 cells up front that would give 96-128 medium range missiles. If theyngot another 4-8 cells behind the main mast thats another 16-32. Evwn if they go for FL 3000N thats 48 short range (12km) SAMs plus the 2 type 730 ciws in the back

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## johnag

Thanks for sharing. olshoppers com


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## Pindi Boy

how many torpedoes & ASHM at max our agusta 90Bs and S-20 subs can carry in a single mission..
and what is ths max range of pakistani torpedoes???
@araz @Arsalan


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## Arsalan

Pakistan Zindabad said:


> how many torpedoes & ASHM at max our agusta 90Bs and S-20 subs can carry in a single mission..
> and what is ths max range of pakistani torpedoes???
> @araz @Arsalan


It can carry a mix of 20 torpedoes and AShM in total.
Range cannot be discussed as such because we are operating a few different types with different ranges.

For S-20, it is not known for sure but i think these will also carry 20 to 24 weapons on board (if there is no VLS as some purpose there will be)

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## Pindi Boy

Arsalan said:


> It can carry a mix of 20 torpedoes and AShM in total.
> Range cannot be discussed as such because we are operating a few different types with different ranges.
> 
> For S-20, it is not known for sure but i think these will also carry 20 to 24 weapons on board (if there is no VLS as some purpose there will be)


do we havs better torpedoes then indian one???


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## Arsalan

Pakistan Zindabad said:


> do we havs better torpedoes then indian one???


I wont get into the "this VS that" debate. Have never seen anything constructive coming out of such arguments. Will suggest you stay from these as well. 

What is important is that what we are using and are the forces happy and ok with that. We also must understand that our Navy is left wanting in many departments and i hope with the proposed procurement of S-20 and some future surface combatants things will improve.

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## Pindi Boy

Arsalan said:


> I wont get into the "this VS that" debate. Have never seen anything constructive coming out of such arguments. Will suggest you stay from these as well.
> 
> What is important is that what we are using and are the forces happy and ok with that. We also must understand that our Navy is left wanting in many departments and i hope with the proposed procurement of S-20 and some future surface combatants things will improve.


thanks for reply Sir

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## nomi007

DID EVER ANY AIRCRAFT CARRIER VISIT KARACHI PORT?


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## khanasifm

F22p just drop the structure on which the fM-90 launcher is mounted and u have enough room to put 32 cell vls which can carry 8 ssm plus 24 sams , no need for a separate ssm launchers 

or just keep ssm launcher and have 32 sams like 54s


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## Metal 0-1

My height is 5,4'
Chest 29
Weight 40 kg 
Does I meet physical requirement for navy


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## Incog_nito

Why not PN start working with Sweden on new Submarine that will be more advanced than the A-26?


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## ziaulislam

1. cost
2. indian influence, india will not allow any one to sell us via its huge procurement open tender process.
india is procuring worth 250 billion dollars of weapons from different countries



Oxair Online said:


> Why not PN start working with Sweden on new Submarine that will be more advanced than the A-26?

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## Vazir

I have a quick question. I hope it isn't the wrong place. 
Can a C-802 launcher be modified to fire a C-805 missile? Can that be done in the case of Zulfiqar class?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Vazir said:


> I have a quick question. I hope it isn't the wrong place.
> Can a C-802 launcher be modified to fire a C-805 missile? Can that be done in the case of Zulfiqar class?


Shouldn't be a problem considering it is fundamentally the same missile (i.e. YJ-8x). That said, the PN doesn't have a need for such a missile. The C-805 is good for land-attack, but the F-22Ps need the C-802 to take on ships (via the terminal stage seeker). For land-attack, the PN has the Babur.

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## Thorough Pro

how fucked up is that sentence? World does not revolve around india.



ziaulislam said:


> 1. cost
> 2. indian influence, *india will not allow any one to sell* us via its huge procurement open tender process.
> india is procuring worth 250 billion dollars of weapons from different countries

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## Vazir

But is Babur bring fitted on the F-22Ps?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Shouldn't be a problem considering it is fundamentally the same missile (i.e. YJ-8x). That said, the PN doesn't have a need for such a missile. The C-805 is good for land-attack, but the F-22Ps need the C-802 to take on ships (via the terminal stage seeker). For land-attack, the PN has the Babur.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Vazir said:


> But is Babur bring fitted on the F-22Ps?


The PN equips ships to carry out specific roles. The F-22P's purpose is to engage enemy surface ships and submarines, not hit targets on land. For hitting targets on land, the PN will equip the Hangor submarines with the Babur-3 SLCM. Basically, there's no need for arming the F-22P with the C-805 or even Babur (the PN will have the Hangor for land-strike).

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## Vazir

Got it. And one more thing. Does Pakistan have the ability to, in an unconventional move, deny ships access to Persian Gulf and in effect blockade Iran from one side? Hypothetical scenario. 
I also want to know if we could hold it that way in a war.


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## Readerdefence

Vazir said:


> Got it. And one more thing. Does Pakistan have the ability to, in an unconventional move, deny ships access to Persian Gulf and in effect blockade Iran from one side? Hypothetical scenario.
> I also want to know if we could hold it that way in a war.


I'm not much experienced to answer this bro but hypothetically saying why you want us 
To block Iran as even its not easy for USA to fully block them until unless to go for a 
Full blown war 
I hope you don't mind my reply

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## Vazir

Readerdefence said:


> I'm not much experienced to answer this bro but hypothetically saying why you want us
> To block Iran as even its not easy for USA to fully block them until unless to go for a
> Full blown war
> I hope you don't mind my reply


Yeah, but I'm wondering if we can put a blockade on Iran and whether Iran can lift that blockade or not? 

HASHMI/VAZIR


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## Army research

Vazir said:


> Yeah, but I'm wondering if we can put a blockade on Iran and whether Iran can lift that blockade or not?
> 
> HASHMI/VAZIR


Look man Iran has Alot of asymmetrical solutions they are developing to counter an American blockade. Although one might say they can't stop either an American blockade and ours, they know they can't so are developing ways of hurting us ie cruise missile volleys and land batteries mini subs etc , although they're effectiveness can be doubted they can surely harm PN enough as to deter us. Basically it's a hypothetical indo pak scenario with Pakistan as India and Iran as Pakistan, hypothetically India has enough impressive naval power to blockade us hence our doctrine is solely developed to counter this with asymmetrical means eg submarines SLCM cruise missiles etc
Hope this sums it up

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## The Diplomat

I was reading about Pakistan Navy on Wikipedia today and came across the PN fleet and on the submarines section it said "Indigenous Nuclear Submarine" and on the notes section it said "According to the Navy officials, the project is extremely ambitious, and the first submarine will be locally built in Pakistan. The project is estimated to complete in 5 to 8 years, according to Navy." With the projected date being 2017-2022. 
Can anyone spread some light or is it just edited by some one? 
Link: Pakistan Navy Nuclear Submarine
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Lahore_PAF said:


> I was reading about Pakistan Navy on Wikipedia today and came across the PN fleet and on the submarines section it said "Indigenous Nuclear Submarine" and on the notes section it said "According to the Navy officials, the project is extremely ambitious, and the first submarine will be locally built in Pakistan. The project is estimated to complete in 5 to 8 years, according to Navy." With the projected date being 2017-2022.
> Can anyone spread some light or is it just edited by some one?
> Link: Pakistan Navy Nuclear Submarine
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


We've heard murmurs of a SSN/SSGN project, but today's emphasis is on inducting the Hangor-class AIP submarine with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, such as Babur-3. It's also important to understand that essentials to submarine warfare - such as low-acoustics and safety - are very difficult to achieve in SSN designs. If Pakistan is still serious about this program, it will take its time before moving ahead with construction. @Oscar

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## Advocate Pakistan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We've heard murmurs of a SSN/SSGN project, but today's emphasis is on inducting the Hangor-class AIP submarine with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, such as Babur-3. It's also important to understand that essentials to submarine warfare - such as low-acoustics and safety - are very difficult to achieve in SSN designs. If Pakistan is still serious about this program, it will take its time before moving ahead with construction. @Oscar



Indeed, nuclear powered submarines would need the miniaturized nuclear power plants to be developed and tested. It was believed that Pakistan has settled not to induct nuke submarine rather use nuke tipped Babur from conventional submarines. However, the blacklisting of some Pakistani defence related entities by US sometime ago has revitalized the debate somewhat.

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## Signalian

Its a pity Pakistan doesn't concentrate much on amphibian warfare. A COIN war made Pakistan raise specialized Light Infantry units (LCB), maybe an amphibious conflict will make Pakistan raise better equipped amphibious units.

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## IHK_PK

Dear friends, 
I Need to answer a legal question and please take it as most urgent. 

Short background is that a Pak Navy ship docked at a port in Italy 2 or 3 years ago, a PN sailor, who actually wanted to settle in Europe for financial reasons, desserted the ship and asked for Asylum in EU on the grounds that since he desserted his job now from PN, he will be punished if went back.

We know that dessertion in war time may have a death penalty but what is generally the punishment for dessertion in peacetime?
The deserter belongs to a village and villagers say no one from Navy came to look for the person in question, means Navy is not actively pursuing the case, If the person is deported from Europe now, what awaits him in Pakistan ?

We need to answer this question for my client which is an European Embassy in Pakistan. 

Thanking you, I remain. 
IHK.


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## Signalian

@Rashid Mahmood @Bilal Khan 777 

Respected Sirs,

1. Considering that P-3 Orions are of US origin, can they be be armed with Aim-120 AMRAAM ?

P-3 Orion can detect air and surface targets through the AN/APS-137 Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR) system. It has functions like Periscope/Surface Search, Fine Range Resolution, Rapid Scan , Track While Scan (TWS) modes and Moving Target Indicator (MTI) with a range of 350+ Km. P-3 Orion has another radar, APS-115 Maritime Surveillance Radar, though I am not sure if it has modes suitable for launching an air to air missile. If i am not wrong, Harpoon has the same guidance system as AMRAAM and is a BVR missile though its air to surface when armed on P-3. 

The E/O pods, or IRST, carried on P-3 Orion are ASX-4 Advanced Imaging Multispectral Sensor (AIMS) and ASX-6 Multi-Mode Imaging System (MMIS). Can these systems be used to lock and fire AMRAAM ?

Aim-9 has been tested on P-3 and maybe could be carried as self defense missile. I am not aware if PN P-3 Orions are capable of carrying Aim-9 ?










Lastly, does P-3 Orion carry an EW/jamming suite like PAF's Falcon DA-20, which can help PN /PAF fighters in air combat by creating an EW and jamming environment over the seas ?



2. The ATR-72 MPA has been fitted with Leonardo Seaspray 7300E active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, "Elettronica" electronic support measures (ESM) suite, FLIR Systems Star SAFIRE III electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) turret. 

Can ATR-72 be fitted with Aim-9 or Aim-120 ? 
And can it also take part in creating an EW and Jamming environment ?

I am asking this because these 2 types of Maritime surveillance and ASW aircrafts are very few in number, can be deployed for long duration and ranges above the seas, and if attacked and downed will result in hampering PN's ASW and MP capability.

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## Rashid Mahmood

PN operates ASW, ASV and AEW P-3Cs.


They are not fitted for AAM's. Even if they are, these aircraft are not capable of a close range air to air combat.
These aircraft are designed to operate alone and are aware of enemy fighters closing in.

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## Humble Analyst

Signalian said:


> Its a pity Pakistan doesn't concentrate much on amphibian warfare. A COIN war made Pakistan raise specialized Light Infantry units (LCB), maybe an amphibious conflict will make Pakistan raise better equipped amphibious units.


Landing for retaking own area or having a sea approach to which coast ours or potential enemy coast?


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## Signalian

I guess no plans to put Blind dolphins in action on the lines of United States Navy Marine Mammal Program


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## Falcon26

Rashid Mahmood said:


> PN operates ASW, ASV and AEW P-3Cs.
> 
> 
> They are not fitted for AAM's. Even if they are, these aircraft are not capable of a close range air to air combat.
> These aircraft are designed to operate alone and are aware of enemy fighters closing in.



Pakistan operates AEW P-3Cs? Any additional info/sources?


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## Rashid Mahmood

Falcon26 said:


> Pakistan operates AEW P-3Cs? Any additional info/sources?



Yes.
No.

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## Falcon26

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Yes.
> No.



Bold unsubstantiated claim.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Falcon26 said:


> Bold unsubstantiated claim.



Do you really think I would put classified info here for you...!!!

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## Falcon26

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Do you really think I would put classified info here for you...!!!



Nothing classified about your claim. US military sales to Pakistan are public knowledge and the sale of a AEW version of the Orions are not known.


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## Army research

Falcon26 said:


> Nothing classified about your claim. US military sales to Pakistan are public knowledge and the sale of a AEW version of the Orions are not known.


They are large aircraft and maritme patrol is literraly done through AEW equipment ,


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## Rashid Mahmood

Falcon26 said:


> Nothing classified about your claim. US military sales to Pakistan are public knowledge and the sale of a AEW version of the Orions are not known.



If nothing is classified, then google it yourself.

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## Nasr

Pakistan does "*NOT*" operate P-3 AWACS variants. They were offered to Pakistan during the WoT initial years when America had declared Pakistan to be a Major Non-NATO Ally. Even the E-2 Hawkeye was offered to Pakistan who had evaluated the aircraft, but rejected both the P-3 AWACS and the E-2 Hawkeye. Instead Pakistan Air Force went for two different AWACS, namely the Karakoram Eagle (China) and the Erieye (Sweden). There is zero evidence available on public archives to support any claim that Pakistan Air Force, Navy or Army for that matter, operates an AWACS verion of P-3s.

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## Falcon26

Nasr said:


> Pakistan does "*NOT*" operate P-3 AWACS variants. They were offered to Pakistan during the WoT initial years when America had declared Pakistan to be a Major Non-NATO Ally. Even the E-2 Hawkeye was offered to Pakistan who had evaluated the aircraft, but rejected both the P-3 AWACS and the E-2 Hawkeye. Instead Pakistan Air Force went for two different AWACS, namely the Karakoram Eagle (China) and the Erieye (Sweden). There is zero evidence available on public archives to support any claim that Pakistan Air Force, Navy or Army for that matter, operates an AWACS verion of P-3s.



Exactly! With all due respect to @Rashid Mahmood nothing to substantiate his claims that PN operates the AEW version of the P-3 Orion


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## syed_yusuf

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Yes.
> No.


PN foes not operate p3c based AEW


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## Rashid Mahmood

I don't have to substantiate my claim to anyone of the google champions here.

I never claimed that PN operated the "*AWACS P-3C*".

Google the difference between AEW, AEW&C and AWACS. If not difficult to comprehend.
Because that's what all you are good at.

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## IHK_PK

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Do you really think I would put classified info here for you...!!!


If u r right.... then u already put a very classified information here.....


----------



## Rashid Mahmood

IHK_PK said:


> If u r right.... then u already put a very classified information here.....



No.

This much info is already on wikipedia.
Go google.

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## Haris Ali2140

Do we have any nuclear armed missiles for submarines??? If not then are there any plans to complete the triad in near future???

@Rashid Mahmood


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## Incog_nito

Does more F22 P like frigates in the current scenario will help PN to overcome the situation that's arising in Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf, and especially in the Indian Ocean near to Pakistan?

Like, 4 F22P aren't enough, and getting new corvettes and aircraft's will take 4 to 5 years minimum. So, additional F22P like vessels can help them to boost defense in our waters. And even in areas like the red sea if deployed.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Incog_nito said:


> Does more F22 P like frigates in the current scenario will help PN to overcome the situation that's arising in Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf, and especially in the Indian Ocean near to Pakistan?
> 
> Like, 4 F22P aren't enough, and getting new corvettes and aircraft's will take 4 to 5 years minimum. So, additional F22P like vessels can help them to boost defense in our waters. And even in areas like the red sea if deployed.


If by "F-22P-like" you mean build more F-22Ps, then it'll still take 4-5 years minimum. But if you mean trying to buy China's old Type 053H3, then the PN could look into that, yes.

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## Incog_nito

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If by "F-22P-like" you mean build more F-22Ps, then it'll still take 4-5 years minimum. But if you mean trying to buy China's old Type 053H3, then the PN could look into that, yes.


I guess Chinese already has 8 of the same type and that all 8 can easily be upgraded with the latest Weapons and systems by China within 2 to 3 years time. Moreover, PN could also later upgraded it's own F22P on the similar latest standards as well. And these ships can prove worthy for the next 10 to 12 years. 

I guess PN needs such ships to patrol in these 3 regions:

1. Arabian Sea. 
2. Persian Gulf. 
3. Indian Ocean region.

For all these 3 group of 4 F22P class would be good enough with 1 tanker support ship in this battle group.


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## Incog_nito

Is PN scraping all 6 Type-21s into metal? If yes, then its a wise decision to scrap all old stuff and get some new ones that are up to the mark.


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## syed_yusuf

How does pn planning to soldier on type21 and ffg7


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## Tank131

syed_yusuf said:


> How does pn planning to soldier on type21 and ffg7


They dont plan on keeping type 21. They will be retired (cant remember if by MILGEM or Type 054A). Most likely will be stripped of usable stuff like phalanx and either scrapped or scuttled via missile test. As for FFG-7 it is being used as a training ship from my understanding.

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## fatman17

Type 21s will be retired once the new Chinese frigates and turkish corvettes are inducted. The ohp will be converted to a training vessel.


syed_yusuf said:


> How does pn planning to soldier on type21 and ffg7

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## Incog_nito

Will PN be ordering another 2 to 4 OPVs from Romania?


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## syed_yusuf

PIA getting rid of four aircraft due to expensive lease


Three remaining ATR planes to be operated on short routes.



www.dawn.com





Can PN TAKE them over to be converted to RAS72


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## Tipu7

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @PAR 5
How the US imposed sanctions will impact Pakistan's Turkish based defense acquisitions? Particularly the LM2500 Gas Turbines for PN Milgems?

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## imranyounus

__





Redirect Notice






images.app.goo.gl




With so much going on in PN. One ship which could give PN good defensive capability could be an ocean surveillance ship. PN has at least two but are they capable for detecting submarine and can PN get one of above from China US and Japan have similar ships too.


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## Incog_nito

Is PN doing any window shopping for LPDs and LHDs from Europe?

LPDs and LHDs are a very good option and PN needs such expeditionary maritime vessels are quite essential now. As PN conducts operations in the Indian Ocean, the Persian Gulf, and some in Red Sea regions.


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## ghazi52

ASW

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## khanasifm

So the mystery of 6 additional heavy ship is still not resolved ? Where the order was placed or being placed danish? And what type

So 4x054a/p
4x f22p
4x Turkish
2x or perhaps may be 4x danish opv

is know bringing about 14-16 2000 plus tonnage ships

plus 6 Unknow type is the 20 ship navy mentioned

Jinnah class will put it over 20 or may be maintaining the Numbers

based on history average life of naval ship platform with upgrade capability is~50 years for pn, retiring type 21 built in 70s in 2020ish and keeping it productive with some upgrades newer platforms with growth in mind plus high cost may take it beyond 50


ghazi52 said:


> ASW
> 
> View attachment 715984


Based on French design is very successful asw platform with good range comparing it to older 1 ton allute 3 type in pn vs 4 ton z9


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## khanasifm

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Milgem will be equiped with 76 mm 76 SR Oto Melara.
> 
> Just wanted to know if the gun could be modified for OtoMelara Dart Strales
> rounds, or is it already fit for this porpose? this will solve the corvette's CIWS problem and will be very effective in providing protection to its pact "sorry dont know the term".



Even Chinese 76 mm gun on f22p and on 054a provides anti aircraft capability out to 17 km range and anti surface capacity is primary role opt to 16 km

based on russian design but improved ans magazinesize doubled in chines for 100-150 plusrounds compared to 70/80 in Russin version

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## syed_yusuf

Any idea when will be the weapon package of two corvettes


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## Incog_nito

Besides those 8 Chinese submarines, is PN planning on the acquisition of another 8 submarines from Germany / Sweden?

Milden's project is quite different from the acquisition of the above 8+8 submarines.


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## Tamiyah

Incog_nito said:


> Besides those 8 Chinese submarines, is PN planning on the acquisition of another 8 submarines from Germany / Sweden?
> 
> Milden's project is quite different from the acquisition of the above 8+8 submarines.


I have heard about something indigenous and somethings with foreign partners but not from Germany / Sweden. I expect something smaller from foreign countries.


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## Incog_nito

Tamiyah said:


> I have heard about something indigenous and somethings with foreign partners but not from Germany / Sweden. I expect something smaller from foreign countries.



Then it will be Turkish.


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## Tamiyah

Incog_nito said:


> Then it will be Turkish.


You never know.


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## Incog_nito

Let's see.


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## farooqbhai007

what is the system mounted on the truck on the right for ? , 
The left truck is the GCS&comms unit for LUNA NG. 
While the other truck on right seems to be some kind of coastal radar , notice the Stabilizers , any idea ?


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## MrAlpha1

As Pakistan's Sea Kings are getting old, What could be the options for Pakistan navy?
1) Chinese
2) American
3) Italian


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

British, but Italian branding.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> British, but Italian branding.



Possible we can see IK announce a multi billion pound AW159/AW101 deal when he visits UK in July?

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## Aryeih Leib

Yasser76 said:


> Possible we can see IK announce a multi billion pound AW159/AW101 deal when he visits UK in July?


Pakistan never does that ...!! 
Pak ARMED forces keep these kind of news close to their chests till the deal is sealed

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## Yasser76

Aryeih Leib said:


> Pakistan never does that ...!!
> Pak ARMED forces keep these kind of news close to their chests till the deal is sealed



Yes, that was my point, announcing a done deal for AW choppers. .

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## Falconless

Pakistan should push for domestic production of whatever helicopter they end up ordering, ideally AWs as the Army and Air Force both have a sizable fleet of them.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Possible we can see IK announce a multi billion pound AW159/AW101 deal when he visits UK in July?


This would be more of a UK gov't announcement, e.g., Boris Johnson saying the areas building the AW-series will get jobs for the next 5-7 years.

On our end, I'd keep an eye on talks for financing and credit. IMHO, a helicopter deal would cross $1b in value, so it'd be the largest arms deal between the UK and Pakistan in a long time (if ever).

It would also be a huge experiment for the UK to gauge if Pakistan is a good arms market. Success in this area can lead to bigger programs down the line, e.g., fighter aircraft.


Falconless said:


> Pakistan should push for domestic production of whatever helicopter they end up ordering, ideally AWs as the Army and Air Force both have a sizable fleet of them.


Licensed production isn't worth it. If we're importing, we should push for an offset deal where our private sector gets to source a % of the parts for all AW helicopters. However, to enter helicopter manufacturing properly, we need to engage in original design work (like Turkey).

IMHO ... a 7-8-ton platform that can function as a AW139-type transport helicopter and AH-1Z-type attack helicopter would work really well for our armed forces. But the Army needs to take the lead on this since they'd be the largest user.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would be more of a UK gov't announcement, e.g., Boris Johnson saying the areas building the AW-series will get jobs for the next 5-7 years.
> 
> On our end, I'd keep an eye on talks for financing and credit. IMHO, a helicopter deal would cross $1b in value, so it'd be the largest arms deal between the UK and Pakistan in a long time (if ever).
> 
> It would also be a huge experiment for the UK to gauge if Pakistan is a good arms market. Success in this area can lead to bigger programs down the line, e.g., fighter aircraft.
> 
> Licensed production isn't worth it. If we're importing, we should push for an offset deal where our private sector gets to source a % of the parts for all AW helicopters. However, to enter helicopter manufacturing properly, we need to engage in original design work (like Turkey).
> 
> IMHO ... a 7-8-ton platform that can work as a AW139-type transport helicopter and AH-1Z-type attack helicopter would work really well for our armed forces. But the Army needs to take the lead on this since they'd be the largest user.



That is actually want I meant, after Brexit UK Gov are desperate to shout about any non EU deals. I think they also realised the Indians were stringing them along after all these year. After the US, Russians, French and Israelis get their slice of the Indian defence pie then very little left over. Once Typhoon lost out to Rafale and Indian Navy went for US/Russian/Israeli kit I think their is now more leeway to deal with Pakistan. Defence training between Pak and UK has always been very close (Cambrian, Sandhurst cadets, Instructor exchanges, joint exercises etc) but defence trade never quite followed this. Only major issue with UK kit is that much of it has US components. If UK can ensure all UK/Italian equipment on CAMM-ER and AW choppers then no reason at all we should not go in for these if we have money. Also this is kit either Turkey does not make or does not make to a high enough quality.
Damn, by some twist of fate it seems AW159 uses same LHTEC CTS800 engine that T-129 uses and US is witholding. Only two military choppers in the world use this engine, AW159 and T-129. Pretty bad lick I think.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> That is actually want I meant, after Brexit UK Gov are desperate to shout about any non EU deals. I think they also realised the Indians were stringing them along after all these year. After the US, Russians, French and Israelis get their slice of the Indian defence pie then very little left over. Once Typhoon lost out to Rafale and Indian Navy went for US/Russian/Israeli kit I think their is now more leeway to deal with Pakistan. Defence training between Pak and UK has always been very close (Cambrian, Sandhurst cadets, Instructor exchanges, joint exercises etc) but defence trade never quite followed this. Only major issue with UK kit is that much of it has US components. If UK can ensure all UK/Italian equipment on CAMM-ER and AW choppers then no reason at all we should not go in for these if we have money. Also this is kit either Turkey does not make or does not make to a high enough quality.


We've greased wheels for Italy and Spain. We just need to get London and Berlin to play ball, and if they do, then Europe opens up again.

At IDEAS 2018, the rep from Diehl BGT told me, straight up, the German gov't granted defence export licenses for Pakistan. Reps from TKMS, Siemens, etc told me the exact thing. 

So, Germany is ready, though we still have a lot of work before we can get bank guarantees and loans (a FATF issue).

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We've greased wheels for Italy and Spain. We just need to get London and Berlin to play ball, and if they do, then Europe opens up again.
> 
> At IDEAS 2018, the rep from Diehl BGT told me, straight up, the German gov't granted defence export licenses for Pakistan. Reps from TKMS, Siemens, etc told me the exact thing.
> 
> So, Germany is ready, though we still have a lot of work before we can get bank guarantees and loans (a FATF issue).



Unsure what we can get from Germany, Subs must be out if we go with Turkish MILDEM route. Maybe just the Sea Sultan upgrade?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Unsure what we can get from Germany, Subs must be out if we go with Turkish MILDEM route. Maybe just the Sea Sultan upgrade?


Lots of critical subsystems, e.g., SDRs for TDLs, MMI/HMIs, TRMs, etc.

Even if we go the MILDEN or TS1700 route for submarines, the preferred engines and AIPs would likely be MTU and Siemens, respectively. Even if we think about Project AZM, stuff like machining or other manufacturing inputs are pretty important...

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Lots of critical subsystems, e.g., SDRs for TDLs, MMI/HMIs, TRMs, etc.
> 
> Even if we go the MILDEN or TS1700 route for submarines, the preferred engines and AIPs would likely be MTU and Siemens, respectively. Even if we think about Project AZM, stuff like machining or other manufacturing inputs are pretty important...



Good point. Must say I am a massive fan of German Tanks and Subs. Since WWII they have always produced world beating kit in this area.....


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## Aryeih Leib

Should PN wait for Gökbey?


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Aryeih Leib said:


> Should PN wait for Gökbey?




No need, there are a lot of helicopters on the market

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would be more of a UK gov't announcement, e.g., Boris Johnson saying the areas building the AW-series will get jobs for the next 5-7 years.
> 
> On our end, I'd keep an eye on talks for financing and credit. IMHO, a helicopter deal would cross $1b in value, so it'd be the largest arms deal between the UK and Pakistan in a long time (if ever).
> 
> It would also be a huge experiment for the UK to gauge if Pakistan is a good arms market. Success in this area can lead to bigger programs down the line, e.g., fighter aircraft.
> 
> Licensed production isn't worth it. If we're importing, we should push for an offset deal where our private sector gets to source a % of the parts for all AW helicopters. However, to enter helicopter manufacturing properly, we need to engage in original design work (like Turkey).
> 
> IMHO ... a 7-8-ton platform that can function as a AW139-type transport helicopter and AH-1Z-type attack helicopter would work really well for our armed forces. But the Army needs to take the lead on this since they'd be the largest user.


AW149 - 8.3T to 8.6T depending on engine manufacturer.



























Leonardo ramps up AW149 push for Puma replacement


Leonardo Helicopters has underscored the credentials of its 8.6t AW149 super-medium-twin as a replacement for the UK Royal Air Force's Puma HC2 transports, particularly against what it describes as rival "paper aircraft".




www.flightglobal.com

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## SQ8

The Aw-101 has been pitched and approached for many times all the way until ideas 2012.

I remember seeing a brochure for it as a kid in 1998 at a Navy Relative’s place.

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## Blacklight

MrAlpha1 said:


> As Pakistan's Sea Kings are getting old, What could be the options for Pakistan navy?
> 1) Chinese
> 2) American
> 3) Italian


Good thread Sir!

How about people start thinking along these lines first?

1) What you need to identify first is, what is the primary role of the Sea King in the PN.

2) Which manufacturers:
a) Will support you through a war with your neighbors ?
b) Will give you more than MRO?
c) Will give you cutting edge tech, and keep you relevant?
d) Will split payments over "X" number of years?

3) Capability:
a) Do you need an exact replacement, or will a slight change in specs enable you to buy a better platform, that will yield better results, since it will be also bought by Army / PAF? This would be a decision influenced by finances.
b) Is this a good opportunity to induct newer tech to enhance your primary role?
c) What would be the delivery schedule?
d) How hard would it be for existing crew, both air and ground to transition?
e) With new platforms come teething issues, how long can you wait for the new platform to achieve FOC?

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## Blacklight

Aryeih Leib said:


> Should PN wait for Gökbey?


Dont think they will.

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## Thorough Pro

To put an American option, you must have been living off-grid for quite a while 



MrAlpha1 said:


> As Pakistan's Sea Kings are getting old, What could be the options for Pakistan navy?
> 1) Chinese
> 2) American
> 3) Italian

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## Viking 63

i Would steer clear anything American- Good option is Italian AWs PN need to look at them more seriously.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> The Aw-101 has been pitched and approached for many times all the way until ideas 2012.
> 
> I remember seeing a brochure for it as a kid in 1998 at a Navy Relative’s place.


Yep it was there at IDEAS '18 too. But the naval variant is wildly expensive though, $120 m per aircraft all-in. The AW159 can be had for $45-50 m per unit all-in. But the PN will hope that a naval AW149 comes in at $60-70 m all-in, which is their target ballpark for one standard naval heli (for ASW, AShW, AEW, SAR and troop carrying). To eat into the MH-60R market, Leonardo is aiming for that price point too.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep it was there at IDEAS '18 too. But the naval variant is wildly expensive though, $120 m per aircraft all-in. The AW159 can be had for $45-50 m per unit all-in.* But the PN will hope that a naval AW149 comes in at $60-70 m all-in*, which is their target ballpark for one standard naval heli (for ASW, AShW, AEW, SAR and troop carrying). To eat into the MH-60R market, Leonardo is aiming for that price point too.


The 8.6-tonne AW149 is marketed as an alternative to the Sikorsky S70/UH-60 Black Hawk and the Airbus Helicopters Puma/Super Puma family. 

A version of the AW149, designated TUHP149, was submitted as a candidate for the $4 billion, 109-aircraft Turkish Utility Helicopter Program (TUHP) for the Turkish Armed Forces, and the type was offered to meet the Polish Armed Forces’ multirole helicopter requirement. 








AW149 Proves Worth After Early Setbacks


If the UK chooses the AW149 production could be transferred from Milan to Yeovil.




www.ainonline.com





According to the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, Leonardo has sold 24 AW149 and eight AW189 helicopters to the Egyptian military for approximately EUR871 million (USD957 million). The sales were recorded in the ministry’s 2019 arms exports report to the Italian Senate of the Republic. 





Italy reveals Leonardo helo sales to Egypt


The Italian government has revealed a hitherto-unconfirmed Leonardo military helicopter sale to Egypt, according to documents disclosed in late May. Seen in Italian military markings, the Italian government has confirmed that the AW149 has now been sold to Egypt. According to the Italian Ministry



www.janes.com





France’s La Tribune reported in April 2019 that Egypt had chosen the AW149 over the NH90 to meet a shipboard helicopter requirement. 








Egypt orders AW149 and AW189 helicopters - defenceWeb


Egypt has ordered 24 AW149 combat helicopters and eight AW189 civil models from Italy’s Leonardo Helicopters under an 871 million euro contract signed last year. This is according to the Italian foreign ministry’s report to the Senate on 2019 arms exports, published in May. This put Egypt into...




www.defenceweb.co.za

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> The 8.6-tonne AW149 is marketed as an alternative to the Sikorsky S70/UH-60 Black Hawk and the Airbus Helicopters Puma/Super Puma family.
> 
> A version of the AW149, designated TUHP149, was submitted as a candidate for the $4 billion, 109-aircraft Turkish Utility Helicopter Program (TUHP) for the Turkish Armed Forces, and the type was offered to meet the Polish Armed Forces’ multirole helicopter requirement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AW149 Proves Worth After Early Setbacks
> 
> 
> If the UK chooses the AW149 production could be transferred from Milan to Yeovil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ainonline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, Leonardo has sold 24 AW149 and eight AW189 helicopters to the Egyptian military for approximately EUR871 million (USD957 million). The sales were recorded in the ministry’s 2019 arms exports report to the Italian Senate of the Republic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy reveals Leonardo helo sales to Egypt
> 
> 
> The Italian government has revealed a hitherto-unconfirmed Leonardo military helicopter sale to Egypt, according to documents disclosed in late May. Seen in Italian military markings, the Italian government has confirmed that the AW149 has now been sold to Egypt. According to the Italian Ministry
> 
> 
> 
> www.janes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France’s La Tribune reported in April 2019 that Egypt had chosen the AW149 over the NH90 to meet a shipboard helicopter requirement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egypt orders AW149 and AW189 helicopters - defenceWeb
> 
> 
> Egypt has ordered 24 AW149 combat helicopters and eight AW189 civil models from Italy’s Leonardo Helicopters under an 871 million euro contract signed last year. This is according to the Italian foreign ministry’s report to the Senate on 2019 arms exports, published in May. This put Egypt into...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenceweb.co.za


Yep but remember, a full-out ASW helicopter will have dedicated sensors and other subsystems that will add to the cost. It's the reason why there's a $30-40 m gap between the naval AW101 and regular AW101. 

For the PN, the optimal approach would be one platform -- e.g., AW149 -- but in different configurations, e.g., 12 ASW + AShW types ($600 m) for the MILGEM and Jinnah-class, and 8 utility types (for SAR, troop carrying, etc) for $250-300 m. Maybe even try 4-6 configured for air assault (e.g., ATGM integration) for the Marines.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep but remember, a full-out ASW helicopter will have dedicated sensors and other subsystems that will add to the cost. It's the reason why there's a $30-40 m gap between the naval AW101 and regular AW101.
> 
> For the PN, the optimal approach would be one platform -- e.g., AW149 -- but in different configurations, e.g., 12 ASW + AShW types ($600 m) for the MILGEM and Jinnah-class, and 8 utility types (for SAR, troop carrying, etc) for $250-300 m. Maybe even try 4-6 configured for air assault (e.g., ATGM integration) for the Marines.


I personally hope we get the naval version of the AW101, but I have personally been hearing about it for the last 3yrs, @SQ8 since he was a kid, and @ali_raza since Bhutto informed him 

The thing with the AW149 is that it has a lot in common with the AW139, we can also look at the AW169, and the trio would solve a lot of issues.

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> I personally hope we get the naval version of the AW101, but I have personally been hearing about it for the last 3yrs, @SQ8 since he was a kid, and @ali_raza since Bhutto informed him
> 
> The thing with the AW149 is that it has a lot in common with the AW139, we can also look at the AW169, and the trio would solve a lot of issues.


lol true

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> I personally hope we get the naval version of the AW101, but I have personally been hearing about it for the last 3yrs, @SQ8 since he was a kid, and @ali_raza since Bhutto informed him
> 
> The thing with the AW149 is that it has a lot in common with the AW139, we can also look at the AW169, and the trio would solve a lot of issues.


IMO ... I'd rather the PN order 24 AW149s of multiple types rather than piecemeal numbers of entirely different helicopter models, especially high-cost models. I think the PN could settle its entire helicopter program for $1.2 b; amortize it over 10 years at $100 m per year, and be done with it.

I understand inter-services commonality is unrealistic, but standardization within a service should be tenable.

That said, Leonardo thinks AW149 is a good successor for the Puma-series. It cost Egypt around $30 m all-in per helicopter, which is pretty competitive. So, there might be a case for the Army down the line.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That said, Leonardo thinks* AW149* is a good successor for the Puma-series. It cost Egypt around $30 m all-in per helicopter, which is pretty competitive. *So, there might be a case for the Army down the line.*


Maybe @Tipu7 could shed some light on this?

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Lots of critical subsystems, e.g., SDRs for TDLs, MMI/HMIs, TRMs, etc.
> 
> Even if we go the MILDEN or TS1700 route for submarines, the preferred engines and AIPs would likely be MTU and Siemens, respectively. Even if we think about Project AZM, stuff like machining or other manufacturing inputs are pretty important...


Even EU or British banks good for loan like eygpt got I would love 24-36 EF and if PAF grab old ones would be cheery on top no need more F16s except current fleet upgardes even negate need for J10CE. A combination of F16s JF-17 with EF good to go

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## SQ8

Whats the range difference between 149 and 101? Almost equal - the Sea kings almost formed a shore based component since the only ship capable of hosting them were the fleet oilers.

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## Falconless

Are typhoons a viable replacement for maritime mirages?


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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> Maybe @Tipu7 could shed some light on this?


AW-149 as Puma replacement in Army? Any day...
The need is to standardize the helicopter fleet, both within army as well as in tri services. AW-139, 149, 189 combo can be the right answer in medium lift helicopter cetagory.

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## mingle

Falconless said:


> Are typhoons a viable replacement for maritime mirages?


Sure even can be used omni role

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Whats the range difference between 149 and 101? Almost equal - the Sea kings almost formed a shore based component since the only ship capable of hosting them were the fleet oilers.


Yep, and that's the other consideration. With the AW101, we're basically limiting the number of ships that can support those helicopters. The AW149 affords much more flexibility. In terms of cost, the AW149 uses a much more common engine (GE CT7).

If not for issues with the U.S., the PN would've gone for the UH-60. In fact, it had even asked for 6 of those with the OHPs. I think the PN was interested in standardizing ASW, AShW, SAR, and Marine Ops to one 8-9-ton helicopter.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep but remember, a full-out ASW helicopter will have dedicated sensors and other subsystems that will add to the cost. It's the reason why there's a $30-40 m gap between the naval AW101 and regular AW101.
> 
> For the PN, the optimal approach would be one platform -- e.g., AW149 -- but in different configurations, e.g., 12 ASW + AShW types ($600 m) for the MILGEM and Jinnah-class, and 8 utility types (for SAR, troop carrying, etc) for $250-300 m. Maybe even try 4-6 configured for air assault (e.g., ATGM integration) for the Marines.


The problem is, there is no dedicated ASW/ASuW version of AW-149. If PN will ask for it, it's gonna cost a lot both on pocket and watch.

If this problem is rectified, then AW-149 is the right solution.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> The problem is, there is no dedicated ASW/ASuW version of AW-149. If PN will ask for it, it's gonna cost a lot both on pocket and watch.
> 
> If this problem is rectified, then AW-149 is the right solution.


I think Leonardo might eat the cost of developing an ASW/AShW variant. It's something Leonardo can re-market to other customers, especially those who want a more analogous alternative to the MH-60R. A true naval AW149 is basically the missing piece to that family (otherwise, they have the standard utility AW149, the air assault AW149, and the AW249 attack heli).

The RAS-72 was borne out of this arrangement (with RAS and Aerodata).

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## Falconless

Aren’t provinces like Punjab also planning on launching air ambulances? And the army needs to replace her Pumas and other older choppers. Would it be viable for Pakistan to make one unified order with ToT so that future birds can be built in Pakistan on an as needed basis?

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## Rashid Mahmood

The best option would be the AW101 as was proposed by NHQ.

However, keeping in view the funds situation, a modified AW 149, but it is only in operational use by 2 operators.

Z-20F can be a choice, but it is a new platform and would need detailed and careful operational testing.

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## Tipu7

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The best option would be the AW101 as was proposed by NHQ.
> 
> However, keeping in view the funds situation, a modified AW 149, but it is only in operational use by 2 operators.
> 
> Z-20F can be a choice, but it is a new platform and would need detailed and careful operational testing.


Are there any roles within Navy which only a helicopter of size of AW-101 can execute? If AW-149 is procured, will it leave any blank areas within operational structure needing to be covered?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Leonardo might eat the cost of developing an ASW/AShW variant. It's something Leonardo can re-market to other customers, especially those who want a more analogous alternative to the MH-60R. A true naval AW149 is basically the missing piece to that family (otherwise, they have the standard utility AW149, the air assault AW149, and the AW249 attack heli).
> 
> The RAS-72 was borne out of this arrangement (with RAS and Aerodata).


Their is another point. AW developed the light AW-169 and Heavy AW-101 in ASW configuration to meet maritime demands of European Navies. AW-101 ASW has range, payload advantage and therefore can carry more sensors to greater ranges. AW-169 ASW due to its smaller size fits on smaller ships and is sufficient for their operational envelope. On bigger vessels, two AW-169 can be housed simultaneously and it offers a unique quantitative advantage of its own. 

AW-149 ASW simply do not fit anywhere. If developed, it will be pure export oriented.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Tipu7 said:


> Are there any roles within Navy which only a helicopter of size of AW-101 can execute? If AW-149 is procured, will it leave any blank areas within operational structure needing to be covered?



The AW101 is a maritime ship-borne Anti Submarine platform designed from the drawing board as such.
It is the complete package for every role envisaged for a naval helicopter.

AW149 is a commercial platform which will be modified to meet some requirements, but cannot fulfill the complete range in comparison to the AW101.

PN needs to replace the Seaking's, which have been in service for more than 45 years and only the AW101 can be a true successor. 

NH-90 could have been an alternate but it will not be exported to non partner countries.

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## python-000

Nice hope we get them...


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## Vapnope

@Zarvan bhai Dekhlo idr b tyaray arhe Pakistan

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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... I'd rather the PN order 24 AW149s of multiple types rather than piecemeal numbers of entirely different helicopter models, especially high-cost models. I think the PN could settle its entire helicopter program for $1.2 b; amortize it over 10 years at $100 m per year, and be done with it.
> 
> I understand inter-services commonality is unrealistic, but standardization within a service should be tenable.
> 
> That said, Leonardo thinks AW149 is a good successor for the Puma-series. It cost Egypt around $30 m all-in per helicopter, which is pretty competitive. So, there might be a case for the Army down the line.



Which Leonardo helicopter is equivalent of MH-60 which IN is purchasing??


mingle said:


> Even EU or British banks good for loan like eygpt got I would love 24-36 EF and if PAF grab old ones would be cheery on top no need more F16s except current fleet upgardes even negate need for J10CE. A combination of F16s JF-17 with EF good to go



EU firms can also help upgrade our F-16s if we arrange approval from US.


Rashid Mahmood said:


> The AW101 is a maritime ship-borne Anti Submarine platform designed from the drawing board as such.
> It is the complete package for every role envisaged for a naval helicopter.
> 
> AW149 is a commercial platform which will be modified to meet some requirements, but cannot fulfill the complete range in comparison to the AW101.
> 
> PN needs to replace the Seaking's, which have been in service for more than 45 years and only the AW101 can be a true successor.
> 
> NH-90 could have been an alternate but it will not be exported to non partner countries.



Is AW-101 better or on par with IN MH-60s??


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## The Eagle

Try to utilize existing thread for one liner question instead of creating a new thread without much substance, details or your own detailed concern backed with analysis. 

Regards,

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## Rashid Mahmood

Basel said:


> Which Leonardo helicopter is equivalent of MH-60 which IN is purchasing??
> 
> 
> EU firms can also help upgrade our F-16s if we arrange approval from US.
> 
> 
> Is AW-101 better or on par with IN MH-60s??



AW-101 is better.

This naval helicopter was designed to replace the Sea King and made its first flight in 1987. 

The AW101 is a modern naval helicopter. It is fitted with dipping sonar and sonobuoys. However systems and equipment vary from customer to customer. It has the power and performance for autonomous anti-submarine warfare missions.

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## Blacklight

Rashid Mahmood said:


> AW-101 is better.
> 
> This naval helicopter was designed to replace the Sea King and made its first flight in 1987.
> 
> The AW101 is a modern naval helicopter. It is fitted with dipping sonar and sonobuoys. However systems and equipment vary from customer to customer. It has the power and performance for autonomous anti-submarine warfare missions.


How many do you think would fit PN's needs?


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## Akh1112

Rashid Mahmood said:


> AW-101 is better.
> 
> This naval helicopter was designed to replace the Sea King and made its first flight in 1987.
> 
> The AW101 is a modern naval helicopter. It is fitted with dipping sonar and sonobuoys. However systems and equipment vary from customer to customer. It has the power and performance for autonomous anti-submarine warfare missions.




"The AW101 can be tempermental"- A friend of mine (hes a 101 maintainer for the RN.) 


Thats not ideal for the PN who cant afford long down times and costly MRO


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## Rashid Mahmood

Akh1112 said:


> "The AW101 can be tempermental"- A friend of mine (hes a 101 maintainer for the RN.)
> 
> 
> Thats not ideal for the PN who cant afford long down times and costly MRO



PN has operated and maintained Westland Sea Kings for over 40 years.
They are not more temperamental than them.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Blacklight said:


> How many do you think would fit PN's needs?



12 would be a sufficient number IMO.

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## Akh1112

Rashid Mahmood said:


> PN has operated and maintained Westland Sea Kings for over 40 years.
> They are not more temperamental than them.




Sea kings have had far better availability due to the sheer number of operators meaning the flow of spares, knowledge, etc is all better.

in the same sense how our ah1fs are far better off than aussie tigers.


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## Incog_nito

I guess, 4 Type-54AP are going to be delivered soon with 2 arriving this year and the rest of the 2 arriving next year or later.
Is PN also looking for Type-55 (Type-52D's Production stopped) Destroyers as well?


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## applesauce

Incog_nito said:


> I guess, 4 Type-54AP are going to be delivered soon with 2 arriving this year and the rest of the 2 arriving next year or later.
> Is PN also looking for Type-55 (Type-52D's Production stopped) Destroyers as well?



one type-055 is ~1 billion USD... and thats PLAN prices, without accounting for training, maintenance and other associated costs. it would be well over 10% of the entire Pakistan military budget for a single ship and that's if China sold the ship at production cost. there is just need need for a ship of that size in pakistan nor the money to pay for it or maintain it.


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## Incog_nito

applesauce said:


> one type-055 is ~1 billion USD... and thats PLAN prices, without accounting for training, maintenance and other associated costs. it would be well over 10% of the entire Pakistan military budget for a single ship and that's if China sold the ship at production cost. there is just need need for a ship of that size in pakistan nor the money to pay for it or maintain it.



How much PN paid for the Type-54APs to China?


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## Akh1112

Incog_nito said:


> How much PN paid for the Type-54APs to China?


Below cost. Around 250m or something, I don’t remember now, might be higher, defo below what the PLAN paid though,


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## Abid123

Incog_nito said:


> I guess, 4 Type-54AP are going to be delivered soon with 2 arriving this year and the rest of the 2 arriving next year or later.
> Is PN also looking for Type-55 (Type-52D's Production stopped) Destroyers as well?


Type 055 is too big and expensive. We dont need such a massive ship. Regarding destroyers we have to ask if we really need them? Are destroyers required to defend our tiny coastline? In my opinion we dont need destroyers.


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## Akh1112

Abid123 said:


> Type 055 is too big and expensive. We dont need such a massive ship. Regarding destroyers we have to ask if we really need them? Are destroyers required to defend our tiny coastline? In my opinion we dont need destroyers.



052d allows for protection against swarm attacks, something the 054a can’t do. Also allows for smaller ships to operate under its coverage.

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## applesauce

Incog_nito said:


> How much PN paid for the Type-54APs to China?



possibly below the cost that PLAN paid, china clearly gave Pakistan a huge discount, probably helped that these are mass produced so prices are cheaper than before and with some PRC government assistance push it well under 300 million. there is no exact number since this info is from rumors from some credible leakers.

for comparison, the offer to thailand in 2013 was a bit over 1 billion for 3.

That said, news is that the 054B is being built right now. should have better longer ranged SAMs and munitions options while still being much cheaper than a 052D.


Akh1112 said:


> 052d allows for protection against swarm attacks, something the 054a can’t do. Also allows for smaller ships to operate under its coverage.



052D is expensive too, like 540 million，but i suppose 2 or 3 could be affordable over the long run, and would be more useful for Pakistan than a single 055. but then again you could get like 5 054B for the same price.

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## Incog_nito

Abid123 said:


> Type 055 is too big and expensive. We dont need such a massive ship. Regarding destroyers we have to ask if we really need them? Are destroyers required to defend our tiny coastline? In my opinion we dont need destroyers.



Pakistan's Coastline can even be defended by FACs, Armed OPVs, and Corvettes alone with Air covers like MPAs and JF-17s; adding some Coastal SSKs.

Frigates and Destroyers are usually used to Patrol international waters.


applesauce said:


> possibly below the cost that PLAN paid, china clearly gave Pakistan a huge discount, probably helped that these are mass produced so prices are cheaper than before and with some PRC government assistance push it well under 300 million. there is no exact number since this info is from rumors from some credible leakers.
> 
> for comparison, the offer to thailand in 2013 was a bit over 1 billion for 3.
> 
> That said, news is that the 054B is being built right now. should have better longer ranged SAMs and munitions options while still being much cheaper than a 052D.
> 
> 
> 052D is expensive too, like 540 million，but i suppose 2 or 3 could be affordable over the long run, and would be more useful for Pakistan than a single 055. but then again you could get like 5 054B for the same price.



Can you please share some information on Type-54Bs and their capabilities?

I don't exactly remember where I saw but PN was discussing a possible purchase of Destroyers from China & Turkey.

Turkish TF-2000s is somewhat near to 7,000 tons which is equivalent to a lightweight destroyers category & I am quite sure that PN might be going for it too besides Turkish Frigates & Corvettes.


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## Incog_nito

Akh1112 said:


> 052d allows for protection against swarm attacks, something the 054a can’t do. Also allows for smaller ships to operate under its coverage.



That's also a role of a Destroyer too.

Why I am saying about  Type-55s & TF-2000s   is that PN might be considering a Turkish Style LHD / Small Carrier for UCAVs and Helicopters and this would require a cover from ships like Destroyers.


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## applesauce

Incog_nito said:


> Can you please share some information on Type-54Bs and their capabilities?



not much to share atm. it supposedly is going to be close to 5000t instead of 054A's 4000t and feature longer range, improved ASW suite, possibly a new 100 main gun. some kind of new more integrated mast design, potentially mini-PAR like on the 052D(take this last point with a lot of salt though). 

of more interest is that it will probably have the same series as the VLS already on the 052D and utilize a naval version of the HQ-16B, which should be 75% longer range than the HQ-16 on the 054A (70km vs 40km) along with a wide range of other munitions already developed for the VLS system(will be limited by how deep the cells can be)

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## Incog_nito

Any possibility of looking towards the Damen Ship Builders Frigates and other Marine Products? In one of the threads related to 2 Damen OPVs arrival to PN, somebody indicated that a follow-up order of another 2 has been placed.

Does anyone have any information?


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## faani83

-How is it coming along?
-Are they able to successfully miniaturize Nuclear reactor?


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## ProudPak

faani83 said:


> -How is it coming along?
> -Are they able to successfully miniaturize Nuclear reactor?


Its a secret......but only you know

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## sparten

Supposedly the SSN was shelved in favour of the Hangor class.
The SSBN is apparently still on and for all we know, might be under construction in Karachi.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

It will be game changer for us.miniaturization of reactor will give our scientists more experience to upgrade our present reactors.

We better went for hangor class.this will give us more experience with submarine designs.i am optimistic that until 2035 ,we will have SSN ready to enter the survice.


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## Rafi

FIN.......nuff said.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Bhai choro SSN ko abi ,abi tu ham supersonic missile ka intazar kar rahe hain


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## Aesterix

faani83 said:


> -How is it coming along?
> -Are they able to successfully miniaturize Nuclear reactor?


And then you woke up.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Why did we buy Hangor class subs from China and not 212's.

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## sparten

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Why did we buy Hangor class subs from China and not 212's.


The 212 came with lots of “safeguards”.


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## Rashid Mahmood

sparten said:


> The 212 came with lots of “safeguards”.



Also we couldn't "modify" them.


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## iLION12345_1

sparten said:


> The 212 came with lots of “safeguards”.


Pretty sure that was a rhetorical question


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## TheDarkKnight

faani83 said:


> -How is it coming along?
> -Are they able to successfully miniaturize Nuclear reactor?


Try emailing ISPR.


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## Saquib

I came across this Leonardo AW-139 Seahawk - Sea combat search and rescue variant designed for Pakistan Air Force any info on this?


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## Imran Khan

Saquib said:


> I came across this Leonardo AW-139 Seahawk - Sea combat search and rescue variant designed for Pakistan Air Force any info on this?


PAF choppers never fly over sea . its PN naval air wing . so this info can be taken with grain of salt
some fans named it

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## Saquib

Imran Khan said:


> PAF choppers never fly over sea . its PN naval air wing . so this info can be taken with grain of salt
> some fans named it
> 
> View attachment 779721


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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> PAF choppers *never fly over sea* . its PN naval air wing . so this info can be taken with grain of salt
> some fans named it
> 
> View attachment 779721


Based on what?


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## Imran Khan

SQ8 said:


> Based on what?


area of operational responsibility sir


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## Shabi1

AW-139 is PAFs SAR platform only and with few examples as VIP transport in PA. New promo video for Milgem names Z-9 in specs so PN would probably get new variants of the Z-9 instead of considering these.


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## The Eagle

Saquib said:


> I came across this Leonardo AW-139 Seahawk - Sea combat search and rescue variant designed for Pakistan Air Force any info on this?



Better to use existing discussion instead of creating a new thread merely for a query.


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## Abid123

Are submarines better than surface ships for warfare? Are submarines more dangerous than surface ships? I am asking because most Indian naval experts claim that the biggest challenge for the IN would be PN submarines and in particular PN 8 new yuan class submarines.


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## FuturePAF

Does Pakistan still have requirement for 6 large ships (Heavy Frigates/Destroyers)?

If so is it considering splitting the order between two suppliers?

With the Type 052DL approved for export and the TF-2000 destroyer’s primary missile, the Siper, is achieving crucial test performances requirements (and building on the knowledge acquired from the purchase of the S-400), splitting the order 3/3 between the two vendors would keep the PN abreast of the latest technologies (particularly networks, Datalinks; C4ISR overall) from the East and the West for the foreseeable future, similar to how the Milgem and Type 054A/P give Pakistan a significant ASW capability.

I just hope the export version of the Type 052DL called the Type 052DE or Type 052E will have features from the Type 055, such as the integrated mast and lower signature exhaust.

The following picture is from Stratfor (a private US intelligence company) that speculated as to what a Type 055 could look like, before it was revealed. It is a decent approximation of what I suggest a slightly improved Type 052DL should look like.









China Builds Maritime Muscle


With the launch of its biggest and most advanced destroyer yet, the country continues to sail toward its goal of becoming a formidable naval force.




worldview.stratfor.com


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## CivilianSupremacy

Abid123 said:


> Are submarines better than surface ships for warfare? Are submarines more dangerous than surface ships? I am asking because most Indian naval experts claim that the biggest challenge for the IN would be PN submarines and in particular PN 8 new yuan class submarines.


Definitely, PN's submarine fleet with 3 + 8 (AIP enabled) submarines will be its most lethal component. Detecting a submerged submarine is still most challenging task for any navy. AIP enabled submarines can remain submerged for much longer then traditional subs.

Also, there is a history. PN Hangoor destroyed INS Khurki and damaged another ASW warship of indian navy.


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## FuturePAF

CivilianSupremacy said:


> Definitely, PN's submarine fleet with 3 + 8 (AIP enabled) submarines will be its most lethal component. Detecting a submerged submarine is still most challenging task for any navy. AIP enabled submarines can remain submerged for much longer then traditional subs.
> 
> Also, there is a history. PN Hangoor destroyed INS Khurki and damaged another ASW warship of indian navy.


AIP submarine are hard to detect but they have been around for decades and ASW aircraft have learned to hunt them.

IMHO, The PN should really push to have the Hangor design improved to accommodate Lithium batteries currently being developed for PLAN SSKs and already becoming operational in the Japanese navy, possibly to be acquired by the Indian Navy.


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## CivilianSupremacy

FuturePAF said:


> Does Pakistan still have requirement for 6 large ships (Heavy Frigates/Destroyers)?
> 
> If so is it considering splitting the order between two suppliers?
> 
> With the Type 052DL approved for export and the TF-2000 destroyer’s primary missile, the Siper, is achieving crucial test performances requirements (and building on the knowledge acquired from the purchase of the S-400), splitting the order 3/3 between the two vendors would keep the PN abreast of the latest technologies (particularly networks, Datalinks; C4ISR overall) from the East and the West for the foreseeable future, similar to how the Milgem and Type 054A/P give Pakistan a significant ASW capability.
> 
> I just hope the export version of the Type 052DL called the Type 052DE or Type 052E will have features from the Type 055, such as the integrated mast and lower signature exhaust.
> 
> The following picture is from Stratfor (a private US intelligence company) that speculated as to what a Type 055 may look like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Builds Maritime Muscle
> 
> 
> With the launch of its biggest and most advanced destroyer yet, the country continues to sail toward its goal of becoming a formidable naval force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> worldview.stratfor.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 895225



Bro, It will take years once TF-2000 is developed and comes out. Once its finally developed then the first customer will be definitely Turkish Navy itself as they need many ships to accompany their LHD or better Drone/Heli carrier and replace the old OHPs.

As far as Type-52D is concerned, the Chinese navy itself is inducting it in numbers as of now. For possible scenario with USN. 

Even if any of these destroyers becomes available for exports even then we do not have budget for it as of now. Economic stability & financial strength is much more critical for Pakistan then anything else. If we could not control this economic instability and kept moving towards the default then I fear some of additional ships on order like rest of type54s, milgems, opvs, hangors, Jinnah frigates maybe sold to any other customer.

I hope all defense enthusiasts must keep an eye on economic strength of ours as well. Infact as a nation that's the subject that should be of more interest to us now. Because economic security ensures your country's security and core interests. War cannot be fought with negative balance. All missiles, ships, tanks, everything then entire military runs on Fuel and for that we need massive FX for continuous import.



FuturePAF said:


> AIP submarine are hard to detect but they have been around for decades and ASW aircraft have learned to hunt them.
> 
> IMHO, The PN should really push to have the Hangor design improved to accommodate Lithium batteries currently being developed for PLAN SSKs and already becoming operational in the Japanese navy, possibly to be acquired by the Indian Navy.


True.


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## FuturePAF

CivilianSupremacy said:


> Bro, It will take years once TF-2000 is developed and comes out. Once its finally developed then the first customer will be definitely Turkish Navy itself as they need many ships to accompany their LHD or better Drone/Heli carrier and replace the old OHPs.
> 
> As far as Type-52D is concerned, the Chinese navy itself is inducting it in numbers as of now. For possible scenario with USN.
> 
> Even if any of these destroyers becomes available for exports even then we do not have budget for it as of now. Economic stability & financial strength is much more critical for Pakistan then anything else. If we could not control this economic instability and kept moving towards the default then I fear some of additional ships on order like rest of type54s, milgems, opvs, hangors, Jinnah frigates maybe sold to any other customer.
> 
> I hope all defense enthusiasts must keep an eye on economic strength of ours as well. Infact as a nation that's the subject that should be of more interest to us now. Because economic security ensures your country's security and core interests. War cannot be fought with negative balance. All missiles, ships, tanks, everything then entire military runs on Fuel and for that we need massive FX for continuous import.
> 
> 
> True.



When those of us on this forum started advocating for the procurement of the J-10, probably 5-10 years before it actually happened, we were seen as too eager. But as we saw it, the scope of the PAF was limited by the fighters in the fleet and the J-10 opened up new possibilities. 

This is the same logic as far as the destroyer procurement. 

It is not that I’m advocating for its procurement ASAP, but rather to put these two designs under closer scrutiny and look to have them tailored to our needs, so that hopefully, by the end of the decade, when our economic prospects have improved, Inshallah, and these ships are fully developed, we will be able to procure them and they will meet our needs.


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## CivilianSupremacy

FuturePAF said:


> When those of us on this forum started advocating for the procurement of the J-10, probably 5-10 years before it actually happened, we were seen as too eager. But as we saw it, the scope of the PAF was limited by the fighters in the fleet and the J-10 opened up new possibilities.
> 
> This is the same logic as far as the destroyer procurement.
> 
> It is not that I’m advocating for its procurement ASAP, but rather to put these two designs under closer scrutiny and look to have them tailored to our needs, so that hopefully, by the end of the decade, when our economic prospects have improved, Inshallah, and these ships are fully developed, we will be able to procure them and they will meet our needs.



That's right, once we are out of the economic turmoil and these ships (TF-2000 & 52Ds) become readily available for exports like by mid 2030s then its a good chance PN acquiring one of these. 


Or maybe even derive its own Jinnah II project. Which is already derived from Baburs (milgems). But this looks to be in future, as 2030s may only see focus on Jinnah frigates and building hangor submarines locally. Already too much in plate.

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## FuturePAF

CivilianSupremacy said:


> That's right, once we are out of the economic turmoil and these ships (TF-2000 & 52Ds) become readily available for exports like by mid 2030s then its a good chance PN acquiring one of these.
> 
> 
> Or maybe even derive its own Jinnah II project. Which is already derived from Baburs (milgems). But this looks to be in future, as 2030s may only see focus on Jinnah frigates and building hangor submarines locally. Already too much in plate.


Fixing our economy and our politics are the two most powerful ways to strength our defense. Yes, interest into these destroyers is just planing in preparation for the 2030s.


The following “6000 ton destroyer” is probably right in line with what the PN stated it wanted

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590928736517787650

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## Eurasia NI

Whale Shark-6000 - man that is such a cringe name  It sounds like some toy from the 1980s (not that I would know, I swear)


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