# The origins of tribes across Pakistan and Hindustan



## Taimur Khurram

I thought this would be a decent thread to make where we can explore the origins of different tribal groups across the region, it would be interesting in my opinion to find out where we all come from, based on actual evidence.


@Joe Shearer @Iqbal Ali @Sher Shah Awan @Kaptaan @PAKISTANFOREVER @Mugwop @Windjammer @waz @Luffy 500 @Azadkashmir @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Zarvan @Chinese-Dragon 

Anyone want to start this thread off?

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## Taimur Khurram

@313ghazi @HAKIKAT @Devil Soul @Clutch

@El Sidd


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## Baby Leone

well i was watching a video on you tube where it says that Pashtuns are the lost tribe of Bani Israel.

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## lastofthepatriots

From Baba Adam.

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## Maarkhoor

*Arain people*

The *Arain* (Urdu: آرائین) are descendants of Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent. Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, an Indian historian of Islam, wrote that they entered India thru Debal, Sindh with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711CE). He refered to them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho) which was Punjabized with a nasal sound to *Arain*. It is believed the word Arain is derived from the Arabic name Ar-Ra'i, "The shepherd", a title indigenous to Arabia.

Most *Arains* are very fair, and many have coloured eyes, which means that they could not be of Indian ancestary. This is more true because of the fact that even today *Arains* don't like to marry outside their clan. Even highly urbanised *Arains* do not like to marry "outsiders", resulting in *Arains* being the purest race in the subcontinent, *Arains* claim Arab descent, based upon the fact that nearly all *Arains* are Sunni Muslims as was Muhammad Bin Qasim. Large Number of *Arains* can be also found in Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Pakistan and other Countries. Under the British Raj after the two Anglo-Sikh wars the *Arains* who were classified by the British as a non-martial race (at that time they were an almost exclusive agricultural caste of Muslim farmers and small land holders.) were brought into the Punjab to replace the Sikhs, who classified as a martial race were sought by the British as new recruits. Unlike many of the Muslims from Afganistan, who were slow to accept the change to the British educational system and the change from Persian to English, the *Arains* stressed the importance of education for their children, and with the wealth gained from their hard work they were soon dominating the legal profession in Punjab and as lawyers have found around the world, their move into politics was an easy one. *Arain* is the Largest and most populated Muslim Tribe of Pakistan and Subcontinent with Population of over 70 Million People.


*Arains* mostly use the family names (some former titles) of: *Chaudhry*,* Mian*, *Mehar*, *Malik*, *Ramay*, *Bhutta*, *Ghurki*, *Ramday*, *Bhutto*, *Sardar*, *Kardar*, *Saleemi*, *Hijazi*, *Sheikh*, *Shah*, *Shami*, *Munda*, *Hansi*, *Gill*, *Daulay*, *Chachar*, *Gaellin*, *Mulanay*, *Qutab Shahi*, *Rattay*, *Goheer*, *Ghalar*, *Gahgeer*, *Gatku*, *Kavali*, *Basroo*, *Sappal*, *Jattalay*, *Bahalwan*, *Mudh*, *Teerandaz*, *Katarband*, *Bhaila*, *Rahi*, *Bhati*, *Multani*, *Sayal*, *Baga*, *Peer*, *Dhako* and *Alrai*.

@lastofthepatriots

@Zarvan

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## lastofthepatriots

OverLoad said:


> *Arain people*
> 
> The *Arain* (Urdu: آرائین) are descendants of Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent. Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, an Indian historian of Islam, wrote that they entered India thru Debal, Sindh with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711CE). He refered to them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho) which was Punjabized with a nasal sound to *Arain*. It is believed the word Arain is derived from the Arabic name Ar-Ra'i, "The shepherd", a title indigenous to Arabia.
> 
> Most *Arains* are very fair, and many have coloured eyes, which means that they could not be of Indian ancestary. This is more true because of the fact that even today *Arains* don't like to marry outside their clan. Even highly urbanised *Arains* do not like to marry "outsiders", resulting in *Arains* being the purest race in the subcontinent, *Arains* claim Arab descent, based upon the fact that nearly all *Arains* are Sunni Muslims as was Muhammad Bin Qasim. Large Number of *Arains* can be also found in Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Pakistan and other Countries. Under the British Raj after the two Anglo-Sikh wars the *Arains* who were classified by the British as a non-martial race (at that time they were an almost exclusive agricultural caste of Muslim farmers and small land holders.) were brought into the Punjab to replace the Sikhs, who classified as a martial race were sought by the British as new recruits. Unlike many of the Muslims from Afganistan, who were slow to accept the change to the British educational system and the change from Persian to English, the *Arains* stressed the importance of education for their children, and with the wealth gained from their hard work they were soon dominating the legal profession in Punjab and as lawyers have found around the world, their move into politics was an easy one. *Arain* is the Largest and most populated Muslim Tribe of Pakistan and Subcontinent with Population of over 70 Million People.
> 
> 
> *Arains* mostly use the family names (some former titles) of: *Chaudhry*,* Mian*, *Mehar*, *Malik*, *Ramay*, *Bhutta*, *Ghurki*, *Ramday*, *Bhutto*, *Sardar*, *Kardar*, *Saleemi*, *Hijazi*, *Sheikh*, *Shah*, *Shami*, *Munda*, *Hansi*, *Gill*, *Daulay*, *Chachar*, *Gaellin*, *Mulanay*, *Qutab Shahi*, *Rattay*, *Goheer*, *Ghalar*, *Gahgeer*, *Gatku*, *Kavali*, *Basroo*, *Sappal*, *Jattalay*, *Bahalwan*, *Mudh*, *Teerandaz*, *Katarband*, *Bhaila*, *Rahi*, *Bhati*, *Multani*, *Sayal*, *Baga*, *Peer*, *Dhako* and *Alrai*.
> 
> @lastofthepatriots
> 
> @Zarvan






> Large Number of *Arains* can be also found in Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Pakistan and other Countries.



I have a hard time believing this crap.

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## Joe Shearer

dsr478 said:


> I thought this would be a decent thread to make where we can explore the origins of different tribal groups across the region, it would be interesting in my opinion to find out where we all come from, based on actual evidence.
> 
> 
> @Joe Shearer @Iqbal Ali @Sher Shah Awan @Kaptaan @PAKISTANFOREVER @Mugwop @Windjammer @waz @Luffy 500 @Azadkashmir
> @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Zarvan @Chinese-Dragon
> 
> Anyone want to start this thread off?



Delighted to take part, but have to wait till evening. Rushing off now to a series of meetings.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

OverLoad said:


> *Arain people*
> 
> The *Arain* (Urdu: آرائین) are descendants of Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent. Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, an Indian historian of Islam, wrote that they entered India thru Debal, Sindh with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711CE). He refered to them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho) which was Punjabized with a nasal sound to *Arain*. It is believed the word Arain is derived from the Arabic name Ar-Ra'i, "The shepherd", a title indigenous to Arabia.
> 
> Most *Arains* are very fair, and many have coloured eyes, which means that they could not be of Indian ancestary. This is more true because of the fact that even today *Arains* don't like to marry outside their clan. Even highly urbanised *Arains* do not like to marry "outsiders", resulting in *Arains* being the purest race in the subcontinent, *Arains* claim Arab descent, based upon the fact that nearly all *Arains* are Sunni Muslims as was Muhammad Bin Qasim. Large Number of *Arains* can be also found in Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Pakistan and other Countries. Under the British Raj after the two Anglo-Sikh wars the *Arains* who were classified by the British as a non-martial race (at that time they were an almost exclusive agricultural caste of Muslim farmers and small land holders.) were brought into the Punjab to replace the Sikhs, who classified as a martial race were sought by the British as new recruits. Unlike many of the Muslims from Afganistan, who were slow to accept the change to the British educational system and the change from Persian to English, the *Arains* stressed the importance of education for their children, and with the wealth gained from their hard work they were soon dominating the legal profession in Punjab and as lawyers have found around the world, their move into politics was an easy one. *Arain* is the Largest and most populated Muslim Tribe of Pakistan and Subcontinent with Population of over 70 Million People.
> 
> 
> *Arains* mostly use the family names (some former titles) of: *Chaudhry*,* Mian*, *Mehar*, *Malik*, *Ramay*, *Bhutta*, *Ghurki*, *Ramday*, *Bhutto*, *Sardar*, *Kardar*, *Saleemi*, *Hijazi*, *Sheikh*, *Shah*, *Shami*, *Munda*, *Hansi*, *Gill*, *Daulay*, *Chachar*, *Gaellin*, *Mulanay*, *Qutab Shahi*, *Rattay*, *Goheer*, *Ghalar*, *Gahgeer*, *Gatku*, *Kavali*, *Basroo*, *Sappal*, *Jattalay*, *Bahalwan*, *Mudh*, *Teerandaz*, *Katarband*, *Bhaila*, *Rahi*, *Bhati*, *Multani*, *Sayal*, *Baga*, *Peer*, *Dhako* and *Alrai*.
> 
> @lastofthepatriots
> 
> @Zarvan


Bhuttos however claim to be Rajputs... Arians are also native to Panjab and not Sindh or other provinces.

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## Maarkhoor

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bhuttos however claim to be Rajputs... Arians are also native to Panjab and not Sindh or other provinces.


Yes they are but Bhutto is also a sub caste of Arain happens to be same name and people get confuse.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

OverLoad said:


> *Arain people*
> 
> The *Arain* (Urdu: آرائین) are descendants of Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent. Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, an Indian historian of Islam, wrote that they entered India thru Debal, Sindh with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711CE). He refered to them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho) which was Punjabized with a nasal sound to *Arain*. It is believed the word Arain is derived from the Arabic name Ar-Ra'i, "The shepherd", a title indigenous to Arabia.
> 
> Most *Arains* are very fair, and many have coloured eyes, which means that they could not be of Indian ancestary. This is more true because of the fact that even today *Arains* don't like to marry outside their clan. Even highly urbanised *Arains* do not like to marry "outsiders", resulting in *Arains* being the purest race in the subcontinent, *Arains* claim Arab descent, based upon the fact that nearly all *Arains* are Sunni Muslims as was Muhammad Bin Qasim. Large Number of *Arains* can be also found in Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Pakistan and other Countries. Under the British Raj after the two Anglo-Sikh wars the *Arains* who were classified by the British as a non-martial race (at that time they were an almost exclusive agricultural caste of Muslim farmers and small land holders.) were brought into the Punjab to replace the Sikhs, who classified as a martial race were sought by the British as new recruits. Unlike many of the Muslims from Afganistan, who were slow to accept the change to the British educational system and the change from Persian to English, the *Arains* stressed the importance of education for their children, and with the wealth gained from their hard work they were soon dominating the legal profession in Punjab and as lawyers have found around the world, their move into politics was an easy one. *Arain* is the Largest and most populated Muslim Tribe of Pakistan and Subcontinent with Population of over 70 Million People.
> 
> 
> *Arains* mostly use the family names (some former titles) of: *Chaudhry*,* Mian*, *Mehar*, *Malik*, *Ramay*, *Bhutta*, *Ghurki*, *Ramday*, *Bhutto*, *Sardar*, *Kardar*, *Saleemi*, *Hijazi*, *Sheikh*, *Shah*, *Shami*, *Munda*, *Hansi*, *Gill*, *Daulay*, *Chachar*, *Gaellin*, *Mulanay*, *Qutab Shahi*, *Rattay*, *Goheer*, *Ghalar*, *Gahgeer*, *Gatku*, *Kavali*, *Basroo*, *Sappal*, *Jattalay*, *Bahalwan*, *Mudh*, *Teerandaz*, *Katarband*, *Bhaila*, *Rahi*, *Bhati*, *Multani*, *Sayal*, *Baga*, *Peer*, *Dhako* and *Alrai*.
> 
> @lastofthepatriots
> 
> @Zarvan


Gills are Jatts.
Qutub Shahi is used by Awans.
Ghurkis i think are Gujjars.
Bhuttas are a south panjab clan.

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## lastofthepatriots

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bhuttos however claim to be Rajputs... Arians are also native to Panjab and not Sindh or other provinces.



There are plenty of Arains in Sindh, that literally go by the surname 'Arain' though. A lot of fakes among us these days, but I am a Ramay.

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## Maarkhoor

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Gills are Jatts.
> Qutub Shahi is used by Awans.
> Ghurkis i think are Gujjars.
> Bhuttas are a south panjab clan.


Again name confusion Arain don't have any sub caste but a name of procession what they do in Army, like teerandaz, kardaar, ghud-sawar and me Rattay mean bloody furious fighter (ratt is Punjabi word for blood or red).


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## fitpOsitive

@dsr478 Please change the name of thread to Arain Thread.


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## lastofthepatriots

fitpOsitive said:


> @dsr478 Please change the name of thread to Arain Thread.



TBH, most Arains are too religious to care. I was just giving some info out to those that were curious.


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## Taimur Khurram

fitpOsitive said:


> @dsr478 Please change the name of thread to Arain Thread.



Nah, this thread is going to include ALL tribes.

Might as well diversify things:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurjar


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## Well.wisher

Hello , 
I know nothing about my tribe neither I care .

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## lastofthepatriots

Well.wisher said:


> Hello ,
> I know nothing about my tribe neither I care .



You are from Baba Adam.


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## El Sidd

dsr478 said:


> @313ghazi @HAKIKAT @Devil Soul @Clutch
> 
> @El Sidd



Never asked.
Never cared.

This is a very primitive mindset which thankfully is fading away in Pakistan.

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## !eon

El Sidd said:


> Never asked.
> Never cared.
> 
> This is a very primitive mindset which thankfully is fading away in Pakistan.


Chachu You look like south western eastern Nordic


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## El Sidd

!eon said:


> Chachu You look like south western eastern Nordic



Haha sure

As long as its similar to humans i am fine with it

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## Taimur Khurram

El Sidd said:


> Never asked.
> Never cared.
> 
> This is a very primitive mindset which thankfully is fading away in Pakistan.



Primitive would be using this as a point of pride.

Merely discussing our origins is perfectly normal, it's good to know our history.

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## El Sidd

dsr478 said:


> Primitive would be using this as a point of pride.
> 
> Merely discussing our origins is perfectly normal, it's good to know our history.




Start excavation of the Indus valley then.

If you are serious.

Otherwise this is just a caste system thread

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## Taimur Khurram

El Sidd said:


> Start excavation of the Indus valley then.
> 
> If you are serious.
> 
> Otherwise this is just a caste system thread



Well, I can't go over there and start digging.

We all know about Indus Valley, Gandhara, etc. Why not talk about something else?

This isn't a caste thread, nobody has brought up caste so far except for you.

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## El Sidd

dsr478 said:


> Well, I can't go over there and start digging.
> 
> We all know about Indus Valley, Gandhara, etc. Why not talk about something else?
> 
> This isn't a caste thread, nobody has brought up caste so far except for you.



Eventually it will go down the road.

Why make things complicated I say?

Discuss current affairs or defence affairs. This comes in neither of the two categories.

I am out of the thread.

Hajjatul wida the last sermon cannot be more clear on this.

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## Azadkashmir

you all jungli anyway.

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## Pakistani E

For me to make any personal contribution on this thread, I am going to have to set down some personal rules. I must first of all clarify I do not believe in any caste system, neither do I believe any human being is above another in anyway possible. All humans are related to each other, having common descent. We must not use any differences in ethnicity, tribe, nationality, religion or beliefs to hate each other.

With that out of the way, and returning to the question posed in the OP, this topic is particularly difficult to answer conclusively for many tribes living in the areas of Pakistan. Most of us have been here for thousands of years, and identity, as we know, is not a static entity. On the contrary, it is extremely fluid, so what we may have identified 500-1000 years ago, may be completely different to before. And maybe in the future, people will choose to identify as something completely different. One last thing, for the love of God, this is purely an academic topic, but I will still relegate myself to only Awans because people get touchy if I mention others and make mistakes. We are all humans, and then whatever else we choose to identify as. No one is questioning or critiquing that.

With the formalities out of the way, let's begin with the different theories put forward for the Awans by different historians throughout the years.

Alexander Cunningham considered the Awans as Rajput clan. While Harikishan Kaul is more generic and says they may be of Jatt or Rajput origin. He points to the fact that in Sanskrit, the term Awan means “defender” or “protector” and asserting that this title was awarded by surrounding tribes due to the Awans successfully defending their strongholds against aggression. Arthur Brandreth believed the Awans to be remnants of Bactrian Greeks.

Meanwhile, the late Professor Dani, an expert who's words I give far more credibility to than any mentioned above, believed the Awans were indigenous to Northern Punjab and may be the ancient Abani mentioned by Greek and Roman Historians and travelers. Proffessor HP Gupta, also believed the Awans are the 'Abanii' or 'Avanii' mentioned by the above.

I personally believe that the modern day tribe of Awans do not have a single point of origin, as different studies all point to different origin for the people that are now classed as Awans. The vast proponent of this section is likely to be indigenous, but where the origin comes from remains a mystery. For example, I posted a study sometime ago in Pakistan History section that suggested that there were two related, but still distinct groups of Awans, at least in the North West of Pakistan. I will quote from that thread below:

"The distances among Awan population of the nearly collection sites in Mansehra and their close affinities with the people of far placed Wakhis and Khowars needs further explanations."

Furthermore, "In case for Awans all the analyses indicate that the phenetic affinities between the samples collected even from different villages of Mansehra District are not that clear which can be taken as standard for the group. The samples of Khowars are interposed in between the Awans as visible in figure 11. Neighbor-joining cluster analysis and MDS with Kruskal’s method indicate that sample of Awans (AWAm2) is much more proximate phenetically to Khowars, than the sample of Awans collected by Hemphill (AWAm1)."

"The Principle Coordinate analysis shows that the sample of Awans collected by Hemphill (AWAm1) is identified as possessing closer affinities to Khowar than the samples of Awans (AWAm2) collected and analyzed during the present study. All analyses indicate that the Awans samples link Awans to the Swatis and Madaklasht on the one hand and to the two Wakhi samples on the other. Analysis through MDS and PCO indicates that the affinities between AWAm1 and Swatis are much closer than the affinity between the sample of Awans and the inhabitants of Madaklasht. All analyses, except PCO indicate that the samples 109 of Wakhis from Gulmit (WAKg) are more similar phenetically to Hemphill’s sample of Awans than is the sample of Wakhis from Sost."

"A synthesis from our results analyzed with the available information shows that the ethnic groups of the northern Pakistan, based on the patterns of their phenetic affinities can be divided into two main groups among which, the Awans, Tanolis and Swatis are affiliated with ethnic groups of the Hindu Kush Himalayan highlands..."

This points to a muddled picture, already disputing the common descent of Awans from a single individual by the name of Qutab-Shah who is reported to have come from Afghanistan in the 11th century.

Just my two cents @dsr478

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## qamar1990

lastofthepatriots said:


> From Baba Adam.


seems legit to me...

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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


> seems legit to me...



Yup.

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## qamar1990

im a gujjar khatana and i did 23 and me dna testing...
im 99.7 percent south asian and .03 percent western european...

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## Taimur Khurram

qamar1990 said:


> im a gujjar khatana and i did 23 and me dna testing...
> im 99.7 percent south asian and .03 percent western european...


That doesn't sound right... Gujjars are agreed to be either of Iranian or Turkish descent.

Anyway, I'm the same (Gujjar Khatana, well mostly anyway, haven't got a clue about my genetics though).

Are the results anymore specific?


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## qamar1990

dsr478 said:


> That doesn't sound right... Gujjars are agreed to be either of Iranian or Turkish descent.
> 
> Anyway, I'm the same (Gujjar Khatana, well mostly anyway, haven't got a clue about my genetics though).
> 
> Are the results anymore specific?


basically 23 and me is garbage... because even pushtuns are considered south asians by them... tamils are considered same as punjabis... but that .03

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## Talwar e Pakistan

qamar1990 said:


> im a gujjar khatana and i did 23 and me dna testing...
> im 99.7 percent south asian and .03 percent western european...


DNA tests are pretty inaccurate, they found that out after they tested it on twins and most of them had very different results.

Especially "23 and me", it was very erroneous for them to group "South Asian" as a single unit.



dsr478 said:


> That doesn't sound right... Gujjars are agreed to be either of Iranian or Turkish descent.
> 
> Anyway, I'm the same (Gujjar Khatana, well mostly anyway, haven't got a clue about my genetics though).
> 
> Are the results anymore specific?


I'm a Gujjar as well.

Gujjars are not of Iranian or Turkish descent. It is agreed that they did however most likely originate from Central Asia as Indo-Scythians, White Huns or Khazars and share their origins with Jatts and possibly Rajputs as well.



Brahmarshi said:


> A *North Indian Brahmin* is my *Ethnicity/Race/Identity* beside Indian.
> 
> yeah, so... everyone knows who we are.
> 
> for understanding our Ethnicity and social structure you can compare us with Rajputs, Prashtuns, Baloch or Kurds.
> 
> I am comparing *Indic Brahmins , Rajput with Iranic Pushtuns* as an example.
> 
> laws of Society : Pustunwali - Manusmriti - Kshatriya Dharma
> Ethnicity : Pustun - Brahmin - Rajput/Kshatriya
> R1a/Aryan : Yes - Yes - Yes
> Language : Puktun - Sanskrit - Rajasthani
> Homeland : Pastunistan - KAshmir to Punjab-Hariyana/Brahamavarta -Rajasthan
> Ancestry : from Abdur Rashid - From sepetersi/7 sages of Vedic Period. - royal Tribes of Kshatriya
> 
> Jay Parashuram !


North Indian Brahmins cannot be compared with Rajputs, Pashtuns, Baloch or Kurds.

The closest Indian ethnic group to Pakistani or Iranic ethnic groups are the Kashmiri Pandits who are surprisingly close to Pakistani Sindhis in genetics but still farther compared with Sindhis from groups such as Kurds, Baloch or Pashtuns.

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## TheBlackCoat

Is the word "caste" synonymous to the word "tribe"?


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## Khafee

TheBlackCoat said:


> Is the word "caste" synonymous to the word "tribe"?


No.

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## Azadkashmir

so who is massalli

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## Proudpakistaniguy

I am janjua and i think origin has been discussed so many times so will not bother again but i am from kahuta

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## lastofthepatriots

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I am janjua and i think origin has been discussed so many times so will not bother again but i am from kahuta



According to Indians you are not a real Rajput.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

lastofthepatriots said:


> According to Indians you are not a real Rajput.


Who care about Indian? They cannot digest this fact that Rajputs were converted into Islam 
They have their own complexes but it dont matter to me 

But i guess its Indian historian who wrote this

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-of-Janjua-Rajputs

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## lastofthepatriots

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Who care about Indian? They cannot digest this fact that Rajputs were converted into Islam
> They have their own complexes but it dont matter to me
> 
> But i guess its Indian historian who wrote this
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-of-Janjua-Rajputs



Funny thing is Janjuas are considered purest Rajputs of Punjab. Indians are always jealous.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

lastofthepatriots said:


> Funny thing is Janjuas are considered purest Rajputs of Punjab. Indians are always jealous.


Indians are most confuse people . They have problem with everything
They will moan if someone will claim arab/Persian origin
and they will also moan when someone claim to be native 
Their enmity with Islam and Pakistan dont let them embrace the truth but well we should not care about Indians . they are not important lol

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## django

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> North Indian Brahmins cannot be compared with Rajputs, Pashtuns, Baloch or Kurds.
> 
> The closest Indian ethnic group to Pakistani or Iranic ethnic groups are the Kashmiri Pandits who are surprisingly close to Pakistani Sindhis in genetics but still farther compared with Sindhis from groups such as Kurds, Baloch or Pashtuns.


Bro this is the same confused chap @Brahmarshi who is always on about eye color, one day he is a Bihari Brahmin, the next from the Kabukl Shahi , he is totally envious of folk who are from the Ghandaran region,,,, he is best ignored and reported.Kudos

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## Taimur Khurram

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> DNA tests are pretty inaccurate, they found that out after they tested it on twins and most of them had very different results.
> 
> Especially "23 and me", it was very erroneous for them to group "South Asian" as a single unit.
> 
> 
> I'm a Gujjar as well.
> 
> Gujjars are not of Iranian or Turkish descent. It is agreed that they did however most likely originate from Central Asia as Indo-Scythians, White Huns or Khazars and share their origins with Jatts and possibly Rajputs as well.
> 
> 
> North Indian Brahmins cannot be compared with Rajputs, Pashtuns, Baloch or Kurds.
> 
> The closest Indian ethnic group to Pakistani or Iranic ethnic groups are the Kashmiri Pandits who are surprisingly close to Pakistani Sindhis in genetics but still farther compared with Sindhis from groups such as Kurds, Baloch or Pashtuns.



Indo Scythians and White Huns were Iranian, and Khazars were Turkish.

I'm not talking about the region we actually came from, but the ethnicity/language of our ancestors (Khazars spoke a Turkic language, Indo-Scythians and White Huns spoke an Iranic one).

I agree that the services which offer genetic testing are complete BS, but that's all we can work with so it is better than nothing I guess.



qamar1990 said:


> basically 23 and me is garbage... because even pushtuns are considered south asians by them... tamils are considered same as punjabis... but that .03



Yeah so I've heard lol.



TheBlackCoat said:


> Is the word "caste" synonymous to the word "tribe"?



No, caste is the social heirachy. You have some tribes that belong to a high caste, and others to a low caste. It's a terrible system that's slowly eroding away.

A tribe is just used to describe a bunch of people who are related to one another and have a relatively recent common ancestor.

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## Imad.Khan

I am a Yousafzai Pukhtun and @Mian Babban knows more about my tribe than I do.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Guys you should visit this site which provide plenty of information about different tribes in Punjab

https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/

I was surprised about this detail information they provided about Janjua tribes in photohar and even mentioned the branches of Janjuas and their distribution in different villages of Rawalpindi and surrounding areas


The Janjua tribal history begins with Raja Ajmal Dev Janjua, who embraced Islam in the 12th century due to his love for Sufi art, poetry and teachings. Rai/Raja Mal followed the Islamic tradition of change of name after conversion and was then known as Raja Mal Khan. Mal Khan is said to have four sons, Bhir, Jodh, Kala and Khakha. From the last descend the Khakha of Kashmir, whose branch the Tezyal I have already looked at in an earlier post. From Jodh descends the Dhamial, from Bhir the Ranial, from Kala, the Gaharwal, and their branch the Jatal. In Chakwal and Jhelum, many Jatal and Dhamial now consider themselves to be Jats.

The main branches of the Janjua are:
*
Dhamial

Gaharwal

Khakha

Ranial*





*Dhamial*

*Dhamial (also written as Dhamyal)* Like the other *tribes* looked, some sections of the *Dhamial* claim Jat status, while other stress the fact that they are *Rajput*. The Dhamial are chiefly found in the *Rawalpindi District *but also in *Gujrat District, Jhelum District and Attock District *of the Punjab and *Mirpur District of Azad Kashmir*. In *Azad Kashmir, the Dhamial *are the second largest Rajput-Jat tribe in the state. With regards to their origins, the Dhamial have a number of traditions as to there origin. Most however agree that they are descended from a *Raja Dhami Khan*, hence the name _Dhami al_, or sons of Dhami. They also point to the town of *Dhamiak* in *Jhelum District *as to where the tribe originated from. According to one of the traditions, *Raja Dhami Khan *came from *Ghazni in Afghanistan*, built a fort in Dhamiak, the ruins of which are still in existence, and defeted the *Gakhar rulers *of the region to establish control. The fort is still known in the local vernacular as *dhami kot *(fort of dhami in Punjabi), and the town of Dhamiak is simply said to be a corruption of the word dhami kot. Most traditions however claim that Dhami Khan was a *Janjua Rajput*, and they are infact a clan of the *Janjua tribe*. In the early thirteenth century, the *Janjua chieftain*, *Raja Mal Khan *rose to prominence. He increased his dominion over Hazara (later renamed Amb) through his son *Raja Tanoli*, Jhelum through his son Raja Jodh, parts of Kashmir through Raja Khakha, Rajghar (later renamed *Malot*) in Chakwal through his eldest Raja Bhir and what is today forms the area of *Kahuta tehsil* through Raja Kala Khan. Tarikh-e-Alfi of the Ghorids makes a mention of the rise to power of *Raja Mal*. According to Lepel H. Griffin, in Chiefs and Families of note in the Punjab (Lahore, 1910, ii, p254)

””On the death of their father, they determined to divide the country called, from Raja Mal, the Maloki Dhan between them. Jodh took the Salt Range near about the Makrach, and captured the town of Makshala from a colony of Brahmins (Mohyals)…He changed its name to Makhiala and built a fort there and two tanks for rain water….. Wir Khan (also spelt Bhir), took the possession of Khura (also spelt Khewra) near modern Pind Dadan Khan.””
The descendants of *Raja Jodh *continued to rule this region through various interruptions until the time of the *Sikh ruler Ranjit Singh*. *Raja Bhir *meanwhile took over the Malot (Rajghar) state from his father. It was in this tradition that Raja Bhir’s later descendant, Raja Malu Khan, allying his cousin *Raja Mubarak Khan *who was the descendant of Raja Jodh Khan, gained control of the region of *Dhamial and Ranial*. Latter in the post I shall look at the* Ranial* branch.



*Villages in Jhelum and Chakwal*

Presently, the Dhamial, both Jat and Rajput are found in Rawalpindi, Chakwal, Jhelum and Mirpur districts. Dhamial villages in *Jhelum District include Kotla Faqir, Mamuri Dhamial, Mohra Lal, Hathia Dhamial, Dheri Dhamial and Rakha Dhamial*. The town of Dhamiak remains the centre of the tribe in the district. In neighbouring *Chakwal District*, important Dhamial villages *include Dohrian, Dhoke Bangwalian, Dhok Qutab Din,* *Dhok Alfo near Mangwal, Ghanwal, Chak Jharray, Chak Kharak, Sohawa, and Kot Raja*.



*Villages in Rawalpindi District*

Looking at each individual tehsil of Rawalpindi District starting with *Gujar Khan Tehsil:*

*1) Aheer*

*2) Chak Dolat*

*3) Chak Rajgan*

*4) Chechi Bahadur*

*5) Dhamial*

*6) Dhok Baba Waris*

*7) Dhok Kund*

*8) Dolmi Dhamial*

*9) Gasroor*

*10) Jajja*

*11) Jhamath*

*12) Miani Borgi *

*13) Mohra Hafyal*

*14) Mohra Salyal, *

*15) Mohra Dhamial *

*16) Mohra Jundi*

*17) Natta Mohra*

*17) Ratala,*

*Rawalpindi Tehsil:*

*1) Bajnial*

*2) Dhamial*

*3) Khail Dhamyal *

*4) Safair*

*5) Sher Dhamial,*

*Kallar Syedan Tehsil*,

*1) Bhai Mehr Ali*

*2) Dhamali, *

*3) Dhok Attari, near Bhalakhar*

*4) Dhok Pakka Khoo, *

*5) Dhok Baba Mehru near Khanpur*,

*6) Mawa Dhamyal*

*7) Mohra Phadyal*

*8) Pari Nakkah near Bhalakhar, *

*9) Phagwari Gala*

*10) Sahib Dhamial*

and in *Kahuta Tehsil:* *Aliot. *

Moving to *Azad Kashmir*, they are found in the villages of *Kandoor, Samlota, Chakswari, Daggar, Dehri Dhamial and Nakkah Dhamial*.

*Gaharwal*

We now look at the *Gaharwal* or sometimes pronounced *Kaharwal*, who are a Rajput clan. According to the 1931 Census of India, they numbered approximately 1,600.

The Gaharwal claim descent from Pir *Kala, a son of Raja Mal Dev Janjua, who married Kaho Rani when he came to the Kahuta hill*s, and named the ilaqua Kahru after her. Hence the descendants are called Kahrwal. The Dulal is a sub-division of the tribe. This branch should not be confused with the Dolal Qureshis of Gujar Khan Tehsil. To sum up, the Gaharwal, like the *Dhamyal and Jatal,* referred in my earlier post, are a branch of the Janjua Rajputs.

The Kahrwal Janjua’s are found in the Kahuta and Kallar Saidan Tehsils of the Rawalpindi District. Important Gaharwal villages include *Matore, Bagla, Darkali, Mamyaam, Guff Sanghal ,Mehra Sanghal , Pind-Bansoo and Blong*. In Kallar Syedan they are found in* Sehi Rajgan*.



*Jatal*


The *Jatal are a tribe *of both Jat and Rajput status, who claim descent from Jatto Khan, a Janjua Rajput, who belonged the Gaharwal branch. So they are in fact sub-group of the Gaharwal. They are extremely localized, found in only in the districts of Rawalpindi and Jhelum. Like other Rajputs tribes of the region, they have a long and distinguished history of military service. Important Jatal *villages include Aheer, Lakho, Mohraian, Jatal Sukhroo and Repa *in *Gujar Khan Tehsil*, *Jatal and Jatal Durab *in *Rawalpindi Tehsil *and* Nandna Jatal and Tirkhi in Kallar Syedan Tehsil *. While in *Jhelum District*, they are found mainly in *Jhelum and Dina tehsils*. In the Islamabad Capital Territory, Jatal are foind in *Gagri *village.

*Ranial*

I shall finally look at the *Ranial branch of the Janjuas*. Like the other branches, the Ranial trace their descent from Raja Mal Khan, the traditional ancestor of the Janjua tribe. As I have already discussed in my account of the Dhamial, the Ranial branch of the Janjua descend from Raja Bhir, who was the erstwhile ruler of Malot (Rajghar) state in Chakwal, and from him descended, Raja Malu Khan, who was the direct ancestor of the Ranials. Raja Malu Khan was allied with Mubarak Khan, the Dhamial. According to the *Tehreek-e-Janjua (Sahiwal Press, v1, p224)*, these two Rajas employed a sudden military onslaught to conquer the areas of Ranial and Dhamial. Through the repute of their military success, they were able to win the neighbouring gentry over to their own side and established good relations with them. Raja Malu took the area of Hayal Ranial whilst Raja Mubarak took the Dhamial plain. Interestingly, Raja Malu’s offspring were known as the Rajas of Ranial and Raja Mubarak’s offspring likewise, were known as the Rajas of Dhamial. This later culminated in the recognition of these two branches as simply Ranial Rajas and Dhamial Rajas. Being neighbours, they taxed their subjects separately, but followed common policies on other matters such as the supply of soldiers to the Mughal emperors, cultivation and trade.

*Family tree*

The Ranial Rajputs are linked ancestrally to the Janjuas through Raja Malu Khan, who was a descendant of Raja Bhir as illustrated below:

Raja Mal Khan, the Janjua king
|
Raja Bhir, the elder son of Raja Mal Khan
|
Raja Acharpal (later converted to Islam and was renamed Raja Ahmed Khan)
|
Raja Sunpal
|
Raja Islam-ud-din
|
Raja Noor-ud-din
|
Raja Daulat Khan
|
Raja Hans Khan
|
Raja Malu Khan (during Jehangir’s reign [1605-28])

Some of Raja Malu Khan’s descendants settled in Nambal in Kallar Syedan Tehsil of Rawalpindi, immigrating from Malot, in Chakwal District(the ancestral kingdom of Raja Bhir who inherited it from his father, Raja Mal Khan). Raja Malu Khan was one of five brothers. The other brothers were: Raja Sadu Khan: whose descendants are settled in the area of Sehel Tehsil and Pindi Gheb, Raja Nadyam Khan: whose descendants are in Harajpur Pind and Pind Dadan Khan Tehsil, Raja Babul (who was the Minister of Maral Garh): whose descendants are settled in the Murali district in Chakwal and Raja Jangu Khan: whose descendants are settled in Dana, Khanpur and Dadan Chey.

https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/tag/janjua-rajputs/

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## Brahmarshi

In Punjab real janjuas/Hindu janjuas claims That origins.


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## Brahmarshi

django said:


> Bro this is the same confused chap @Brahmarshi who is always on about eye color, one day he is a Bihari Brahmin, the next from the Kabukl Shahi , he is totally envious of folk who are from the Ghandaran region,,,, he is best ignored and reported.Kudos



Greetings, can you tell me name of the guy who is in your Avatar ?

My old man and that guy looks remarkably similar.

And I belong to Small Kashmiri Community of Pandits, even if you look at my Avatar closely you can see outline of valley there. And I have Honey brown eyes, common eye color in Kashmir.

Kudos

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## Brahmarshi

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> North Indian Brahmins cannot be compared with Rajputs, Pashtuns, Baloch or Kurds.
> 
> The closest Indian ethnic group to Pakistani or Iranic ethnic groups are the Kashmiri Pandits who are surprisingly close to Pakistani Sindhis in genetics but still farther compared with Sindhis from groups such as Kurds, Baloch or Pashtuns.



i was *comparing* Indic Brahmins with Indic Rajputs and Iranic Pashtuns. and closest people to Brahmins in North are Rajputs both ethnically and culturally.

i am a Kashmiri Pandit and we look similar and cluster with other North Indian Brahmans from Jammu, Punjab, Haryana, Himachal and uttrakhand. forget us Pandits, its even easy to spot Iranic people from Koshur Pathans of Valley.


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## Sipahi



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## Verve

Not that I care but I am curious nonetheless of the origins of Kashmiri Maliks. Grandparents migrated from a village near Srinagar.

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## django

Brahmarshi said:


> Greetings, can you tell me name of the guy who is in your Avatar ?
> 
> My old man and that guy looks remarkably similar.
> 
> And I belong to Small Kashmiri Community of Pandits, even if you look at my Avatar closely you can see outline of valley there. And I have Honey brown eyes, common eye color in Kashmir.
> 
> Kudos


LOL.
@Horus @The Eagle multiple id troll, keeps on remerging.Kudos

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Garfield said:


> Not that I care but I am curious nonetheless of the origins of Kashmiri Maliks. Grandparents migrated from a village near Srinagar.


Malik was a title given by lords or rulers to zamindars, military leaders, clan chiefs and other occupations that belonged to the upper-level of the social hierarchy.

Maliks were not bound by ethnic, linguistic or cultural factors in comparison to tribes such as Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars and etc... who were. Instead they can be considered an 'occupational/status-origin' tribe.

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## Verve

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Malik was a title given by lords or rulers to zamindars, military leaders, clan chiefs and other occupations that belonged to the upper-level of the social hierarchy.
> 
> Maliks were not bound by ethnic, linguistic or cultural factors in comparison to tribes such as Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars and etc... who were. Instead they can be considered an 'occupational/status-origin' tribe.



Very interesting.

Thank you.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Garfield said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Thank you.


No problem. When did your grandparents 'migrate' from Kashmir? 

Mine were forced out in 1947 by the Dogra regime and witnessed more than half of the family die.

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## dreamer4eva

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Gills are Jatts.
> Qutub Shahi is used by Awans.
> Ghurkis i think are Gujjars.
> Bhuttas are a south panjab clan.


I concur, I'm a Jatt Sikh from India Punjab. My mum is Gill and have extended family members with Bhatti surname. Also, Malik is most common surname in Hindu Jats..


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## lastofthepatriots

dreamer4eva said:


> I concur, I'm a Jatt Sikh from India Punjab. My mum is Gill and have extended family members with Bhatti surname. Also, Malik is most common surname in Hindu Jats..



Nobody cares.


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## dreamer4eva

lastofthepatriots said:


> Nobody cares.


ok bai ji. At personal level, I hate caste system. We should all be judged by deeds not who our ancestors were..

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## lastofthepatriots

dreamer4eva said:


> ok bai ji. At personal level, I hate caste system. We should all be judged by deeds not who our ancestors were..


Peli dafa dekh ya kisay jatt ne vi koi akal di gaal kiti.

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## dreamer4eva

lastofthepatriots said:


> Peli dafa dekh ya kisay jatt ne vi koi akal di gaal kiti.


Ji janab, I take this as a compliment


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## lastofthepatriots

dreamer4eva said:


> Ji janab, I take this as a compliment



Kende ne, jatt da koi maat ne. Maat haiga te jatt ne.


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## dreamer4eva

lastofthepatriots said:


> Kende ne, jatt da koi maat ne. Maat haiga te jatt ne.


Chaar jamatan pad ke thodi akal aa gaye janab. Ajje vi daaru pe jatt puna khilari da kade kade..


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## Proudpakistaniguy

dreamer4eva said:


> ok bai ji. At personal level, I hate caste system. We should all be judged by deeds not who our ancestors were..


You are right. Its good to know where you come from and getting knowledge about all your identities and past history but its our action and how we deal others which matter most in present life rather than who were your ancestors and what they have done centuries ago

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## Talwar e Pakistan

dreamer4eva said:


> ok bai ji. At personal level, I hate caste system. We should all be judged by deeds not who our ancestors were..


This isn't really caste system. It's tribal/baradari system. We don't kiss Brahmin *** nor do we believe in Shudras or Pudras.

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## Verve

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> No problem. When did your grandparents 'migrate' from Kashmir?
> 
> Mine were forced out in 1947 by the Dogra regime and witnessed more than half of the family die.



Migration, I believe, was in 30's. To the Jehlum/Gujrat side. His two brothers moved as well. Lots of Kasmiris moved to the area between Jehlum and Chanab rivers.

Where in Pakistan did your side move to?

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## 313ghazi

We are Jatt. Someone also once said our background is Bhatti, but i don't know the first thing about it. Historically our family were herdsman who then settled in Kashmir and became farmers. We might have come from punjab originally. Most of us are a beige-light brown colour, not pale like pathan or anything like that.


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## lastofthepatriots

313ghazi said:


> We are Jatt. Someone also once said our background is Bhatti, but i don't know the first thing about it. Historically our family were herdsman who then settled in Kashmir and became farmers. We might have come from punjab originally. Most of us are a beige-light brown colour, not pale like pathan or anything like that.



Some bhattis claim rajput background while some claim jatt. Not sure about the truth but have seen both.


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## 313ghazi

lastofthepatriots said:


> Some bhattis claim rajput background while some claim jatt. Not sure about the truth but have seen both.



I don't even know who/what they are.

I do know we have ancestoral relatives over in the potwar area too.


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## dreamer4eva

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> This isn't really caste system. It's tribal/baradari system. We don't kiss Brahmin *** nor do we believe in Shudras or Pudras.


You have no idea, how much I hate Brahmins in general, and you reckon a Jatt will ever kiss a Brahmin arse. That said, one of my besties is a Brahmin and and he is more Jatt than real Jatts.
I agree with you on the caste note, not the right adjective to use as this thread is about tribes. My intent of using the caste was a metaphore for surname. In general speak in India, caste is used for surname, and not the actual caste such as Jatt, Banya, Brahmin etc..


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## Talwar e Pakistan

dreamer4eva said:


> You have no idea, how much I hate Brahmins in general, and you reckon a Jatt will ever kiss a Brahmin arse. That said, one of my besties is a Brahmin and and he is more Jatt than real Jatts.
> I agree with you on the caste note, not the right adjective to use as this thread is about tribes. My intent of using the caste was a metaphore for surname. In general speak in India, caste is used for surname, and not the actual caste such as Jatt, Banya, Brahmin etc..


Yes, the tribes of the Indus have always resisted casteism and brahmanism. Jatts especially have been known for this (atleast in Pakistan), hence why many of them avoided Hinduism and turned to religions such as Islam and Sikhism and even Buddhism in ancient times. Those who were even considered Hindus practiced a type of ancestor worship with some Hindu customs. Jatts were heavily persecuted by the Brahmin dynasty of Chach of Alor and Raja Dahir when they came to power by murdering the rightful Buddhist king.

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## dreamer4eva

Good to know a little bit about Jatt history. I always thought we were offshoots of Rajputs with whom we share so many traits also. Do Pakistani/Muslim Jatts visit Jatheras (our elders, we remember them on yearly basis) also?


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## Taimur Khurram

dreamer4eva said:


> Good to know a little bit about Jatt history. I always thought we were offshoots of Rajputs with whom we share so many traits also. Do Pakistani/Muslim Jatts visit Jatheras (our elders, we remember them on yearly basis) also?



Jatts, Rajputs and Gujjars are closely related from what I've read, suggesting a common ethnic origin:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

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## Joe Shearer

dsr478 said:


> That doesn't sound right... Gujjars are agreed to be either of Iranian or Turkish descent.
> 
> Anyway, I'm the same (Gujjar Khatana, well mostly anyway, haven't got a clue about my genetics though).
> 
> Are the results anymore specific?



Interesting, and at first blush, a contradiction: First, the historical mainstream view, unsubstantiated by the kind of scientific and physical evidence that archaeology or genetic analysis brings to the discussion, used to be that Gujjars and Rajputs are both, separately, descendants of the Scythian-Pahlavi tribes who were driven to Sakasthan (latter day, and present Seistan) and conquered and ruled most of western India for a period. They were later subjugated by the Kushans (who had driven them from their homelands in the first place) but ruled as more or less independent rulers paying tribute to the central imperial authority.

Second, there must inevitably have been considerable intermarriage with the local inhabitants at the time of their incursion. That could lead to different lineages among people of the same endogamous group. 

This could explain both the reputed origin as well as the contradictory DNA. Incidentally, if more and more individuals get themselves tested, and it appears that the majority are descended from local inhabitants and had nothing to do with the Saka-Pahlava, the historians will be forced to revise their thinking and re-write their books.

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## Taimur Khurram

Joe Shearer said:


> Interesting, and at first blush, a contradiction: First, the historical mainstream view, unsubstantiated by the kind of scientific and physical evidence that archaeology or genetic analysis brings to the discussion, used to be that Gujjars and Rajputs are both, separately, descendants of the Scythian-Pahlavi tribes who were driven to Sakasthan (latter day, and present Seistan) and conquered and ruled most of western India for a period. They were later subjugated by the Kushans (who had driven them from their homelands in the first place) but ruled as more or less independent rulers paying tribute to the central imperial authority.
> 
> Second, there must inevitably have been considerable intermarriage with the local inhabitants at the time of their incursion. That could lead to different lineages among people of the same endogamous group.
> 
> This could explain both the reputed origin as well as the contradictory DNA. Incidentally, if more and more individuals get themselves tested, and it appears that the majority are descended from local inhabitants and had nothing to do with the Saka-Pahlava, the historians will be forced to revise their thinking and re-write their books.


Please note when I say Iranian I mean language wise, as Scythians spoke an eastern Iranian language.

Same with Turkish, Khazars spoke a Turkish language.


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## lastofthepatriots

Joe Shearer said:


> Interesting, and at first blush, a contradiction: First, the historical mainstream view, unsubstantiated by the kind of scientific and physical evidence that archaeology or genetic analysis brings to the discussion, used to be that Gujjars and Rajputs are both, separately, descendants of the Scythian-Pahlavi tribes who were driven to Sakasthan (latter day, and present Seistan) and conquered and ruled most of western India for a period. They were later subjugated by the Kushans (who had driven them from their homelands in the first place) but ruled as more or less independent rulers paying tribute to the central imperial authority.
> 
> Second, there must inevitably have been considerable intermarriage with the local inhabitants at the time of their incursion. That could lead to different lineages among people of the same endogamous group.
> 
> This could explain both the reputed origin as well as the contradictory DNA. Incidentally, if more and more individuals get themselves tested, and it appears that the majority are descended from local inhabitants and had nothing to do with the Saka-Pahlava, the historians will be forced to revise their thinking and re-write their books.



I think the the pastoral Gujjars of Northern Pakistan and India would have much different results as compared to the Punjab and Northern India.


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## Joe Shearer

dsr478 said:


> Please note when I say Iranian I mean language wise, as Scythians spoke an eastern Iranian language.
> 
> Same with Turkish, Khazars spoke a Turkish language.



Then you are bang-on accurate. Thanks for the clarification, but I didn't have a problem with it in the first place, and had interpreted it exactly as you had wanted.



lastofthepatriots said:


> I think the the pastoral Gujjars of the Northern Pakistan and and India would have much different results as compared to the Punjab and Northern India.



I met two sets of Gujjars, one being the settled pastoralists, the other Van Gujjars - fascinating people, wandering nomads (shepherds) even today. I have some pictures of their settlements which I will try to upload. Utterly romantic, but callously neglected. 

I am not sure why there would be different results with Punjab and northern India (that's mainly Haryana, which was always part of Punjab, and Rajasthan, and some parts of MP and UP). Why do you think that?

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## lastofthepatriots

Joe Shearer said:


> Then you are bang-on accurate. Thanks for the clarification, but I didn't have a problem with it in the first place, and had interpreted it exactly as you had wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> I met two sets of Gujjars, one being the settled pastoralists, the other Van Gujjars - fascinating people, wandering nomads (shepherds) even today. I have some pictures of their settlements which I will try to upload. Utterly romantic, but callously neglected.
> 
> I am not sure why there would be different results with Punjab and northern India (that's mainly Haryana, which was always part of Punjab, and Rajasthan, and some parts of MP and UP). Why do you think that?



I just assumed that the nomadic or pastoral gujjars would not be as mixed due to a more isolated environment as compared to the ones in the south.

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## Joe Shearer

qamar1990 said:


> basically 23 and me is garbage... because even pushtuns are considered south asians by them... tamils are considered same as punjabis... but that .03



Pakhtuns are south Asian? That's weird. 

And Tamils the same as Punjabi? 

Are you sure about this? Sounds nonsensical.

Don't want to egg you on to wasteful expenditure, but those results create a contradiction between the historical view and the genetic that might not exist. This might be a very inaccurate place.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> DNA tests are pretty inaccurate, they found that out after they tested it on twins and most of them had very different results.



Don't know what to say. 



> Especially "23 and me", it was very erroneous for them to group "South Asian" as a single unit.



That's disappointing.



> I'm a Gujjar as well.
> 
> Gujjars are not of Iranian or Turkish descent. It is agreed that they did however most likely originate from Central Asia as Indo-Scythians, White Huns or Khazars and share their origins with Jatts and possibly Rajputs as well.



I commented on this a little way down the road; at that time, I hadn't read your post. What you have said is more or less the majority view among historians. Please remember that whoever (@dsr478?) mentioned Iranian was not too far from the mark, because the Scythians are thought to have spoken a version of Iranian known as eastern Iranian.

White Huns and Khazars are themselves a very problematic category. 




> North Indian Brahmins cannot be compared with Rajputs, Pashtuns, Baloch or Kurds.
> 
> The closest Indian ethnic group to Pakistani or Iranic ethnic groups are the Kashmiri Pandits who are surprisingly close to Pakistani Sindhis in genetics but still farther compared with Sindhis from groups such as Kurds, Baloch or Pashtuns.





TheBlackCoat said:


> Is the word "caste" synonymous to the word "tribe"?



LOL.

No, and yes. I don't want to answer on thread, and take us all down the caste road. Maybe separately on your personal profile page, or on mine.



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Who care about Indian? They cannot digest this fact that Rajputs were converted into Islam
> They have their own complexes but it dont matter to me
> 
> But i guess its Indian historian who wrote this
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-history-of-Janjua-Rajputs



If we ignore the first three paragraphs, that was a very fine note. Not strictly academic (not much citation but then this is Quora). 

Thanks for pointing it out.



lastofthepatriots said:


> Funny thing is Janjuas are considered purest Rajputs of Punjab. Indians are always jealous.



Why on earth should Indians be jealous? What do I, for instance, have to do with Rajputs? Other than ethnographic curiousity?



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Indians are most confuse people . They have problem with everything
> They will moan if someone will claim arab/Persian origin
> and they will also moan when someone claim to be native
> Their enmity with Islam and Pakistan dont let them embrace the truth but well we should not care about Indians . they are not important lol



<sigh!>

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## lastofthepatriots

Joe Shearer said:


> Why on earth should Indians be jealous? What do I, for instance, have to do with Rajputs? Other than ethnographic curiousity?



I sent you that email. I think you'll find the answer to this very question on there.


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## Joe Shearer

lastofthepatriots said:


> I just assumed that the nomadic or pastoral gujjars would not be as mixed due to a more isolated environment as compared to the ones in the south.



That makes sense. Thanks.



lastofthepatriots said:


> I sent you that email. I think you'll find the answer to this very question on there.



I am really sorry that you felt it necessary. Bash on; I have your back.

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## Brahmarshi

Joe Shearer said:


> That makes sense. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> I am really sorry that you felt it necessary. Bash on; I have your back.


Real Hindu and Sikh Jannuas in India clain Jat origin and sing songs to glorify their jat
ancestry. I have one female Hindu Janjua Friend, and even she's a Jatni.

Stangly, only Muslim Janjuas claim tobe "Rajput"s.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Joe Shearer said:


> I met two sets of Gujjars, one being the settled pastoralists, the other Van Gujjars - fascinating people, wandering nomads (shepherds) even today. I have some pictures of their settlements which I will try to upload. Utterly romantic, but callously neglected.
> 
> I am not sure why there would be different results with Punjab and northern India (that's mainly Haryana, which was always part of Punjab, and Rajasthan, and some parts of MP and UP). Why do you think that?


Look up the Gujjars of Kashmir and compare them with Gujjars of Rajasthan. They are culturally, physically and even to an extent, linguistically different and it's easy to tell them apart.

Gujjars of Kashmir and the Indus region (mostly Northern Punjab) were more isolated and maintained more of their 'original bloodline' while Gujjars of East Punjab, Rajasthan and other parts greatly intermingled with the locals and there have been historical cases of many 'local tribes' being assimilated into them. Although Western Gujjars (of Kashmir, Indus region) also inter-mingled, it was mostly with their kinsmen tribes such as the Jats, who make up the second largest tribe/ethnic group in Pakistan today.

The divide is so great that Gujjars of Pakistan and Kashmir look like typical Pakistanis and have more in common with Pakistanis, while Gujjars of Rajasthan and other (Indian) areas typically look like Indians and have more in common with other Indians than their 'brethren' to the North.

@Kaptaan - might be interesting for you

*Gujjars of Kashmir/Indus region















Gujjars of Rajasthan















*

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## Taimur Khurram

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Look up the Gujjars of Kashmir and compare them with Gujjars of Rajasthan. They are culturally, physically and even to an extent, linguistically different and it's easy to tell them apart.
> 
> Gujjars of Kashmir and the Indus region (mostly Northern Punjab) were more isolated and maintained more of their 'original bloodline' while Gujjars of East Punjab, Rajasthan and other parts greatly intermingled with the locals and there have been historical cases of many 'local tribes' being assimilated into them. Although Western Gujjars (of Kashmir, Indus region) also inter-mingled, it was mostly with their kinsmen tribes such as the Jats, who make up the second largest tribe/ethnic group in Pakistan today.
> 
> The divide is so great that Gujjars of Pakistan and Kashmir look like typical Pakistanis and have more in common with Pakistanis, while Gujjars of Rajasthan and other (Indian) areas typically look like Indians and have more in common with other Indians than their 'brethren' to the North.
> 
> @Kaptaan - might be interesting for you
> 
> *Gujjars of Kashmir/Indus region
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gujjars of Rajasthan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Muslim Gujjars do (apparently) have some genetic differences to their Hindu and Sikh counterparts.


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## Brahmarshi

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Look up the Gujjars of Kashmir and compare them with Gujjars of Rajasthan. They are culturally, physically and even to an extent, linguistically different and it's easy to tell them apart.
> 
> Gujjars of Kashmir and the Indus region (mostly Northern Punjab) were more isolated and maintained more of their 'original bloodline' while Gujjars of East Punjab, Rajasthan and other parts greatly intermingled with the locals and there have been historical cases of many 'local tribes' being assimilated into them. Although Western Gujjars (of Kashmir, Indus region) also inter-mingled, it was mostly with their kinsmen tribes such as the Jats, who make up the second largest tribe/ethnic group in Pakistan today.
> 
> The divide is so great that Gujjars of Pakistan and Kashmir look like typical Pakistanis and have more in common with Pakistanis, while Gujjars of Rajasthan and other (Indian) areas typically look like Indians and have more in common with other Indians than their 'brethren' to the North.
> 
> @Kaptaan - might be interesting for you
> 
> *Gujjars of Kashmir/Indus region
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gujjars of Rajasthan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Gujjars of kashmir looks completely different from Punbaji/pakistani and Haryanvi, UP, Rajasthani Gujjar by facial features alone they look closer to Afghan Gujjars.

Kashmiri Gujjar tribes consider Southern Tribes as Kaamis/Drividians and look up to Afghan Gujjars and pashtuns, as majority of Mislik Koshur do.


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## lastofthepatriots

Brahmarshi said:


> Gujjars of kashmir looks completely different from Punbaji/pakistani and Haryanvi, UP, Rajasthani Gujjar by facial features alone they look closer to Afghan Gujjars.
> 
> Kashmiri Gujjar tribes consider Southern Tribes as Kaamis/Drividians and look up to Afghan Gujjars and pashtuns, as majority of Mislik Koshur do.



It's too bad Kashmiri Pandits look like dog shit. Oh well. Thanks for the information that you made up, you should go and change some pages on wikipedia to make yourself happy.

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## James-bond

Stupid thread

but my issue here is there is no country called as 'HINDUSTAN' either *India or Bharat*.Hope mods change the title.. It sounds me like

*The origins of tribes across Indo-muslimistan and India*


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brahmarshi said:


> Gujjars of kashmir looks completely different from Punbaji/pakistani and Haryanvi, UP, Rajasthani Gujjar by facial features alone they look closer to Afghan Gujjars.
> 
> Kashmiri Gujjar tribes consider Southern Tribes as Kaamis/Drividians and look up to Afghan Gujjars and pashtuns, as majority of Mislik Koshur do.


I'm a Gujjar with origins from Jammu, there are hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Gujjars living in Northern Punjab who have their origins from Jammu. We look like our Jatt kinsmen and pretty much like any other major Pakistani ethnic group.

Also, no way in hell do Rajasthan Gujjars look any close to Afghan Gujjars, they can't even match Kashmiri Gujjars. Kashmiri Gujjars don't look up to Afghan Gujjars or Pashtuns; 95% of them don't even know that Afghan Gujjars exist. We are our own people and are fiercely proud/independent and look up to no one but neither do we look down upon others.

If you don't know what you're talking about, then please don't, keep your unfactual 'knowledge' to yourself.

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## lastofthepatriots

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I'm a Gujjar with origins from Jammu, there are hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Gujjars living in Northern Punjab who have their origins from Jammu. We look like our Jatt kinsmen and pretty much like any other major Pakistani ethnic group.
> 
> Also, no way in hell do Rajasthan Gujjars look any close to Afghan Gujjars, they can't even match Kashmiri Gujjars. Kashmiri Gujjars don't look up to Afghan Gujjars or Pashtuns; 95% of them don't even know that Afghan Gujjars exist. We are our own people and are fiercely proud/independent and look up to no one but neither do we look down upon others.
> 
> If you don't know what you're talking about, then please don't.



Why are you trying to respond to the Indian troll in a serious manner?

Akhir me badsurat bharti he. Complexes aur internet par waqt zyada he.

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## Brahmarshi

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I'm a Gujjar with origins from Jammu, there are hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Gujjars living in Northern Punjab who have their origins from Jammu. We look like our Jatt kinsmen and pretty much like any other major Pakistani ethnic group.
> 
> Also, no way in hell do Rajasthan Gujjars look any close to Afghan Gujjars, they can't even match Kashmiri Gujjars. Kashmiri Gujjars don't look up to Afghan Gujjars or Pashtuns; 95% of them don't even know that Afghan Gujjars exist. We are our own people and are fiercely proud/independent and look up to no one but neither do we look down upon others.
> 
> If you don't know what you're talking about, then please don't, keep your unfactual 'knowledge' to yourself.


Read my post again than reply.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brahmarshi said:


> Read my post again than reply.


Yes and I gave you my reply.

You claimed that Kashmiri Gujjars do not look like Pakistanis or Punjabis, which I refuted.

You claimed that Haryanvi, UP and Rajasthani Gujjars look like Afghan Gujjars, which I refuted.

You claimed that Kashmiri Gujjars look up to Afghan Gujjars and Pashtuns, which I refuted.

You clearly do not know an iota of what you're talking about, so, as I've said, please do not talk of things you know little of.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

lastofthepatriots said:


> Yeah basically, you don't know what the **** you're talking about. All praise to google my little slum dog living fraand.


No need to use bad language.


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## lastofthepatriots

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> No need to use bad language.



There may not be a need. What else do you have to say?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brahmarshi said:


> Sigh,it was my mistake.
> 
> Kashmiri Gujjars specially Bakarwals are far more closer to Afghan Gujjars than Puniabi or Rajasthani Gujjars.
> 
> I have one Bakarwal gujjar friend and whenever i vist his family i always notice their pesdo-Afghan look. They consider themselves purer compared to Mainlanders.
> 
> That's why i said that they always look up to Afghan Gujjars and pashtuns like Majority of Kashmiri muslims.
> 
> Apologies
> 
> @Talwar e Pakistan if you have any question regarding Gujjars of Kashmir or anyother people from wider Kashmir and jammu region feel free to ask, I'll try my best to answer.
> 
> But for now, This KP is going out for Smoke with friends. Gosh.. I love Cold weather, its in my blood


Kashmiri and Afghan Gujjars are close to Punjabis and pretty much other major Pakistani, being a Kashmiri Gujjar - I can attest to this fact.

Kashmiri Muslims here are on really friendly terms with the Pashtuns due to their close co-existence and support during the 1947 war, but they don't really "look up" to them.

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## django

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Kashmiri and Afghan Gujjars are close to Punjabis and pretty much other major Pakistani, being a Kashmiri Gujjar - I can attest to this fact.
> 
> Kashmiri Muslims here are on really friendly terms with the Pashtuns due to their close co-existence and support during the 1947 war, but they don't really "look up" to them.


Bro their are lots of Gujjars in Buner too.



lastofthepatriots said:


> It's too bad Kashmiri Pandits look like dog shit. Oh well. Thanks for the information that you made up, you should go and change some pages on wikipedia to make yourself happy.





Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I'm a Gujjar with origins from Jammu, there are hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Gujjars living in Northern Punjab who have their origins from Jammu. We look like our Jatt kinsmen and pretty much like any other major Pakistani ethnic group.
> 
> Also, no way in hell do Rajasthan Gujjars look any close to Afghan Gujjars, they can't even match Kashmiri Gujjars. Kashmiri Gujjars don't look up to Afghan Gujjars or Pashtuns; 95% of them don't even know that Afghan Gujjars exist. We are our own people and are fiercely proud/independent and look up to no one but neither do we look down upon others.
> 
> If you don't know what you're talking about, then please don't, keep your unfactual 'knowledge' to yourself.


Gents this Indian troll is best left ignored, one id is a Bihari Brahmin, the next day a Haryani Brahmin and today a kashmiri brahmin, he has ids names like vishrvamatra the green eyed Brahmin who claims origins from Kabuli Shahi lol he is totally unhinged, best not to feed the troll.Kudos gents

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## Taimur Khurram

James-bond said:


> Stupid thread
> 
> but my issue here is there is no country called as 'HINDUSTAN' either *India or Bharat*.Hope mods change the title.. It sounds me like
> 
> *The origins of tribes across Indo-muslimistan and India*



Hindustan is, imo, the better term to use since the term India derives from the Indus river which flows almost entirely in Pakistan.

It makes as much sense to call Hindustan India as it does to call Pakistan Gangia. 

Also, historically, Hindustan has always been used. It's still used today in fact, for example, you have HAL and a rather popular member on this forum called @Hindustani78

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## James-bond

dsr478 said:


> Hindustan is, imo, the better term to use since the term India derives from the Indus river which flows almost entirely in Pakistan.
> 
> It makes as much sense to call Hindustan India as it does to call Pakistan Gangia.
> 
> Also, historically, Hindustan has always been used. It's still used today in fact, for example, you have HAL and a rather popular member on this forum called @Hindustani78



You don't have any patent rights to INDUS river as it flows in India too.So India or BHARAT are ok for us as OUR CONSTITUTION clearly mentioned these two names.

Some outside muslims may call Subcontinent converted muslims as Hindustani/muslims (including pak and bd) but we Hindus never agree that stupid name 'stan'. Period.

PS: Even America name used for entire North America before but now 'America' is fixed to USA and canada and mexico have different names like Bangladesh and pak.


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## Taimur Khurram

James-bond said:


> You don't have any patent rights to INDUS river as it flow in India too.So India or BHARAT are ok for me as OUR CONSTITUTION clearly mentioned these two names .
> 
> Some outside muslims may call Subcontinent converted muslims as Hindustani/muslims (including pak and bd) but we Hindus never agree that filthy 'stan'. Period.
> 
> PS Even America name used for entire North America but now 'America' fixed to USA and canada and mexico have different names like Bangladesh and pak.


Whatever.

I'll call your country Hindustan.


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## Taimur Khurram

James-bond said:


> No problem .... i call your country as Indo-muslimistan.


K.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Joe Shearer said:


> P
> 
> If we ignore the first three paragraphs, that was a very fine note. Not strictly academic (not much citation but then this is Quora).
> 
> Thanks for pointing it out.
> 
> <sigh!>


@Joe Shearer I was referring to Indian trolls in my posts and most of them trolls in such threads. You can witness few Indian trolls above


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## Hindustani78

James-bond said:


> You don't have any patent rights to INDUS river as it flows in India too.So India or BHARAT are ok for us as OUR CONSTITUTION clearly mentioned these two names.
> 
> Some outside muslims may call Subcontinent converted muslims as Hindustani/muslims (including pak and bd) but we Hindus never agree that stupid name 'stan'. Period.
> 
> PS: Even America name used for entire North America before but now 'America' is fixed to USA and canada and mexico have different names like Bangladesh and pak.



Actually "Stan" is telugu / Khari Boli term which is being used by native Indian tribes since centuries. sthal term is linked to Stan. 

Ayodhya Shree Ram ka Sthal hain yani stan hai. 

*Sita Samahit Sthal (Sitamarhi)*, the holy place of Sitamarhi is situated between Allahabad and Varanasi


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Brahmarshi said:


> Real Hindu and Sikh Jannuas in India clain Jat origin and sing songs to glorify their jat
> ancestry. I have one female Hindu Janjua Friend, and even she's a Jatni.
> 
> Stangly, only Muslim Janjuas claim tobe "Rajput"s.


You dont know anything about Janjua. I have nothing against Jats or other tribes because they are all great people with pride but Janjua is a Rajput clan and they are called Rajputs in almost all the historical sources and journalistic articles. They have also kept their ancestral records( read my previous posts) . Bhatti are also Rajputs. The ancestral home of Janjua Rajputs is salt Range (Photohar) region of Pakistan as described by various historical gazetteers. The so called people claiming to be "Janjua Jats" are either descendants of some Janjua individuals who married women from Jats clan or they are among those few who were settled in different parts of Punjab because of different battles during ranjit singh era . Rajas were allotted vast jagirees/lands by Mughal, British and other rulers. May be those Indian Janjuas who started farming and cultivating began to be called as Janjua jats my mixing up janjua with jats
Read this from your own indian sites
http://www.indianrajputs.com/history/

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## Proudpakistaniguy

lastofthepatriots said:


> Yeah! Get his ugly troll Indian *** bro!


I dont know why he is fabricating stuff
even if you search this "janjua jats" thing then you come up with this

The *Janjua Jat* (also spelt Janjuha, Janjuah) (Urdu: جنجوعہ, Punjabi ਜਨ੍ਜੁਅ, Hindi:जंजुआ[1], जन्जौ/जनजौहा[2]जन्जुआ[3] ) Janjeha (जनजेहा) [4]is a highly dominant and renowned royal warrior clan of Northern India and Pakistan. They are known as the most Valiant* Kshatriyas* (Warriors) of Punjab


https://www.jatland.com/home/Janjua

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## Joe Shearer

dsr478 said:


> Hindustan is, imo, the better term to use since the term India derives from the Indus river which flows almost entirely in Pakistan.
> 
> It makes as much sense to call Hindustan India as it does to call Pakistan Gangia.
> 
> Also, historically, Hindustan has always been used. It's still used today in fact, for example, you have HAL and a rather popular member on this forum called @Hindustani78



Derived, yes, but went on to refer to the hinterland, to everything until Okean. According to Aristotle and to maps of the time, the ocean was at the end of the Ganges Valley, and then came the rim of the world. There is a theory that Alexander's ultimate objective, his ardent desire to go beyond the boundaries of the Achaemenid Empire, was to reach the rim of the earth. In front of him, after _Hydaspes_, was India.

Check out Megasthenes, to get some idea of the way the ancients used India.

I don't normally point this out, because there is a great deal of sentiment in Pakistan wrapped up in possession of the Indus Valley. The damage was done by Aitzaz Ahsan.

It is true that Hindustan has been used, but it was for the Ganges Valley, from Sirhind (guess what the name parses to) right up to Assam, but not south of the Vindhyas.

About HAL, if some day you visit it, you will find in their old headquarters, not the marble and chrome extravaganza next to Cubbon Park and the M A Chidambaram stadium, a large entrance hall with a portrait of a Marwari/Gujarati kind of guy in Indian dress looking down at you in some bewilderment. The gent is Walchand Hirachand, who, in those patriotic days, named all his enterprises 'Hindustan' something or the other (Hindustan Construction Company was one of his main cash cows). It was an MRO outfit started just before the war, with a magnificent endowment to Walchand Hirachand by the Maharaja of Mysore, Jayachamaraja Wadiyar, and his Diwan, Sir Mirza Ismail, but taken over by the then Government of India due to the imminent Japanese threat of war.



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> @Joe Shearer I was referring to Indian trolls in my posts and most of them trolls in such threads. You can witness few Indian trolls above



What can I do about them, except advise, guide and counsel?



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> @Joe Shearer I was referring to Indian trolls in my posts and most of them trolls in such threads. You can witness few Indian trolls above



What can I do single-handed about them, except to advise, guide and counsel?







I've worn myself out trying to bring them to some order. When the sanghis flooded in, I used half my negative ratings on them (the other half on green 'bhakts'). 

Now I just watch helplessly. My BP (without medication) is 160/100; any more of this and you will hear a loud, popping sound even wherever you are.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Joe Shearer said:


> What can I do about them, except advise, guide and counsel?


Well i dont blame you for them but i was saying that my comment meant for trolls so you dont need to quote such posts with sigh of despair 



Joe Shearer said:


> Now I just watch helplessly. My BP (without medication) is 160/100; any more of this and you will hear a loud, popping sound even wherever you are.


You are good poster. If posts on PDF are the reasons behind high BP then you should quit PDF. Health should be first priority

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## Joe Shearer

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Well i dont blame you for them but i was saying that my comment meant for trolls so you dont need to quote such posts with sigh of despair
> 
> 
> You are good poster. If posts on PDF are the reasons behind high BP then you should quit PDF. Health should be first priority



Saffron and green bhakts are the reason for my high BP, as well as a carelessness in taking my medicines. Also I am 67 years old; now that there are bright, fresh youngsters coming in, I think it's time to fade into the background and concentrate on my cooking. I've been turning out a few outstanding dishes, I tell you, and hope to improve it to the stage where at least 50 to 60% are above good, in the excellent category.

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## The Diplomat

Maarkhoor said:


> *Arain people*
> 
> The *Arain* (Urdu: آرائین) are descendants of Arab invaders to the Indian subcontinent. Akbar Shah Khan Najeebabadi, an Indian historian of Islam, wrote that they entered India thru Debal, Sindh with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 92 Hijri (711CE). He refered to them as Areehai from Arreha (Jericho) which was Punjabized with a nasal sound to *Arain*. It is believed the word Arain is derived from the Arabic name Ar-Ra'i, "The shepherd", a title indigenous to Arabia.
> 
> Most *Arains* are very fair, and many have coloured eyes, which means that they could not be of Indian ancestary. This is more true because of the fact that even today *Arains* don't like to marry outside their clan. Even highly urbanised *Arains* do not like to marry "outsiders", resulting in *Arains* being the purest race in the subcontinent, *Arains* claim Arab descent, based upon the fact that nearly all *Arains* are Sunni Muslims as was Muhammad Bin Qasim. Large Number of *Arains* can be also found in Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Pakistan and other Countries. Under the British Raj after the two Anglo-Sikh wars the *Arains* who were classified by the British as a non-martial race (at that time they were an almost exclusive agricultural caste of Muslim farmers and small land holders.) were brought into the Punjab to replace the Sikhs, who classified as a martial race were sought by the British as new recruits. Unlike many of the Muslims from Afganistan, who were slow to accept the change to the British educational system and the change from Persian to English, the *Arains* stressed the importance of education for their children, and with the wealth gained from their hard work they were soon dominating the legal profession in Punjab and as lawyers have found around the world, their move into politics was an easy one. *Arain* is the Largest and most populated Muslim Tribe of Pakistan and Subcontinent with Population of over 70 Million People.
> 
> 
> *Arains* mostly use the family names (some former titles) of: *Chaudhry*,* Mian*, *Mehar*, *Malik*, *Ramay*, *Bhutta*, *Ghurki*, *Ramday*, *Bhutto*, *Sardar*, *Kardar*, *Saleemi*, *Hijazi*, *Sheikh*, *Shah*, *Shami*, *Munda*, *Hansi*, *Gill*, *Daulay*, *Chachar*, *Gaellin*, *Mulanay*, *Qutab Shahi*, *Rattay*, *Goheer*, *Ghalar*, *Gahgeer*, *Gatku*, *Kavali*, *Basroo*, *Sappal*, *Jattalay*, *Bahalwan*, *Mudh*, *Teerandaz*, *Katarband*, *Bhaila*, *Rahi*, *Bhati*, *Multani*, *Sayal*, *Baga*, *Peer*, *Dhako* and *Alrai*.




Hi, I'm an Arain and really enjoyed reading your article!
Do you know which cities Arains are found in the most? And the history of the Arains from the Mughal Era to modern day. To my understanding Bulleh Shah was not an Arain but accepted the cast later on, can you also provide a little detail on that!
Thanks!

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## lastofthepatriots

The Diplomat said:


> Hi, I'm an Arain and really enjoyed reading your article!
> Do you know which cities Arains are found in the most? And the history of the Arains from the Mughal Era to modern day. To my understanding Bulleh Shah was not an Arain but accepted the cast later on, can you also provide a little detail on that!
> Thanks!



Arain, the true Arain are the best people in the entire region.

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## Maarkhoor

The Diplomat said:


> Hi, I'm an Arain and really enjoyed reading your article!
> Do you know which cities Arains are found in the most? And the history of the Arains from the Mughal Era to modern day. To my understanding Bulleh Shah was not an Arain but accepted the cast later on, can you also provide a little detail on that!
> Thanks!


Bulleh Shah was Syed pupil of an an Arain Saint.

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## The Diplomat

Maarkhoor said:


> Bulleh Shah was Syed pupil of an an Arain Saint.


His family opposed him being a student of an Arain, right?

"Bullay Noun Sumjhawan Ayaan
Bhenaan Tay Bherjaayaan
Man Lay Bullaya Sada Kaina
Chad Day Pala Araiyaan
Aal Nabi Ulad Nabi Noun Tu Kyoun Leeka Layaan
Jera Saanoun Syed Saday
Duzakh Milay Sazaiyaan"

In Lahore, lots of Arain's are around old areas like Walled City, Mughalpura and Shad Bagh to my understanding.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

The Diplomat said:


> Hi, I'm an Arain and really enjoyed reading your article!
> Do you know which cities Arains are found in the most? And the history of the Arains from the Mughal Era to modern day. To my understanding Bulleh Shah was not an Arain but accepted the cast later on, can you also provide a little detail on that!
> Thanks!


Bulleh Shah was a Syed whose family mocked him for following an arian murshad..

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## The Diplomat

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Bulleh Shah was a Syed whose family mocked him for following an arian murshad..


Yeah, I thought so. I had researched about him in the past before and just wanted to confirm. Was he "Aagh"(ed) from the family for not following orders?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> Hindustan is, imo, the better term to use since the term India derives from the Indus river which flows almost entirely in Pakistan.
> 
> It makes as much sense to call Hindustan India as it does to call Pakistan Gangia.
> 
> Also, historically, Hindustan has always been used. It's still used today in fact, for example, you have HAL and a rather popular member on this forum called @Hindustani78


Hindustan was actually historically more used for what is now Central India, it was later on, most likely during British rule, that Hindustan began to be used for *most* parts of South Asia.

Fun-fact:
The other name of their country, "Bharat" (according to Hindu mythology) is derived from an Emperor named Bharata who's tribe was originally from the Indus before they migrated to the Ganges after conflict, conquered the locals and went on to "conquer most of South Asia", this story is most likely fictitious and mythological but still nonetheless interesting.

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## django

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You dont know anything about Janjua. I have nothing against Jats or other tribes because they are all great people with pride but Janjua is a Rajput clan and they are called Rajputs in almost all the historical sources and journalistic articles. They have also kept their ancestral records( read my previous posts) . Bhatti are also Rajputs. The ancestral home of Janjua Rajputs is salt Range (Photohar) region of Pakistan as described by various historical gazetteers. The so called people claiming to be "Janjua Jats" are either descendants of some Janjua individuals who married women from Jats clan or they are among those few who were settled in different parts of Punjab because of different battles during ranjit singh era . Rajas were allotted vast jagirees/lands by Mughal, British and other rulers. May be those Indian Janjuas who started farming and cultivating began to be called as Janjua jats my mixing up janjua with jats
> Read this from your own indian sites
> http://www.indianrajputs.com/history/


Bro he is a well known troll, best to put him on ignore list.Kudos

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## Brahmarshi

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Hindustan was actually historically more used for what is now Central India, it was later on, most likely during British rule, that Hindustan began to be used for *most* parts of South Asia.
> 
> Fun-fact:
> The other name of their country, "Bharat" (according to Hindu mythology) is derived from an Emperor named Bharata who's tribe was originally from the Indus before they migrated to the Ganges after conflict, conquered the locals and went on to "conquer most of South Asia", this story is most likely fictitious and mythological but still nonetheless interesting.



wrong on so many levels.

1) bharathas was collection of Total Victorious tribes under Rishi Vishvamitra who invaded local Aryan tribes who were fighting under rishi Vashistha.

2) there was no tribe named bharatha as it was collection of various Tribes that Attacked older settled Vedic Tribes of doab Region.

3) 10 Tribes were Nomandic who settled in Afghanistan and West of Ravi river during first phase of Vedic Period.





5) i dont remember correctly, but the battle of 10 kings happened either at Triveni Sangam of ravi and Chinab or at Setluj and Ravi.

maybe joe @Joe Shearer can clarify these things.



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I dont know why he is fabricating stuff
> even if you search this "janjua jats" thing then you come up with this
> 
> The *Janjua Jat* (also spelt Janjuha, Janjuah) (Urdu: جنجوعہ, Punjabi ਜਨ੍ਜੁਅ, Hindi:जंजुआ[1], जन्जौ/जनजौहा[2]जन्जुआ[3] ) Janjeha (जनजेहा) [4]is a highly dominant and renowned royal warrior clan of Northern India and Pakistan. They are known as the most Valiant* Kshatriyas* (Warriors) of Punjab
> 
> 
> https://www.jatland.com/home/Janjua



every tom dick and harry claims that they are from kshatriya tribes be it Ahir, Jat, Gujjar or even Yadav. means nothing to us.



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You dont know anything about Janjua. I have nothing against Jats or other tribes because they are all great people with pride but Janjua is a Rajput clan and they are called Rajputs in almost all the historical sources and journalistic articles. They have also kept their ancestral records( read my previous posts) . Bhatti are also Rajputs. The ancestral home of Janjua Rajputs is salt Range (Photohar) region of Pakistan as described by various historical gazetteers. The so called people claiming to be "Janjua Jats" are either descendants of some Janjua individuals who married women from Jats clan or they are among those few who were settled in different parts of Punjab because of different battles during ranjit singh era . Rajas were allotted vast jagirees/lands by Mughal, British and other rulers. May be those Indian Janjuas who started farming and cultivating began to be called as Janjua jats my mixing up janjua with jats
> Read this from your own indian sites
> http://www.indianrajputs.com/history/



Rajput site means nothing as they are also forming "AJGR" Tribe to strength their position. Ahir, Jat, Gujjar and Rajput. upper class of Rajputs dont even allow lower class of Rajput to sit with them much less give them their daughter or take daughter of their lower rajput tribes.

you should google case of Anandpal, she suddenly became mascot of Rajput unity after his encounter but just few years ago he was not even allowed to use Ghodi/Horse in his own marriage because he belonged to lower class of Rajputs. he had to ask to Brahmins to bless his marriage by visiting it thus, giving some extra social prestige and hire Jat and Ahir Gundas/Dons of local are to protect his marriage from upper class of Rajputs.

lol kid i am a Brahmin, these titles and classification were made by us and given to those who were of proper twice born heritage and following their Respective Dharma.

every twice born Person of India be it Brahmin or Rajput or Baniya have their Ancestry written by Brahmins of Varanasi or Dawarika. i have Muslim Chauhan friend and even he was able to find his ancestors based on Details of his converted forefather.

if you are a real Rajput than tell me your clans.

1) Brahmand
2) Vansh
3) Shakha
4) veda
5) Guru
6) kuldevi
7) IstaDevta
8) Mahadev
9) kul pita
10) sahayak
11) Rajguru
12) Rajgor
13) Bhat
14) yagna
15) pavitra bhoomi
16) pradesh

my Chauhan friend was able to give 12 our of 16 details mentioned above. you only have to answer 16 out of 50 question to prove that you are a Rajput not a jat, can you do that ? after that you have to give detailed answer of your vansh and origins. *since you said that your tribe have kept ancestral records* it will be very easy for you. and do us a favor and *do not tag Mellecha as source* who had no idea about how things works here and said that jats and gujjars are rajput/Kshatriya tribes.

bhatis are real Rajputs and their are from Marwad region of Southern Rajasthan. but according to some well known Pakistani Members of this very forum, *every tom dick and harry claims Rajput origin when he leaves his village and moves to city or distant place.* Rajput is like title there not ethnicity. it so rampant that today Bhatti Surname is considered kammi surname in Central and southern punjab joe.

@Joe Shearer even those Muhajir Rajuts of Haryana and Rajasthan dont give their Daughters to Punjabi Rajputs and call them Fake Rajputs/Wannabe Rajputs....

lets see maybe you and me will learn something new today.

@Kashmiri Pandit @Indika @Guardians of the Galaxy @Kedardel @Laozi @MULUBJA @Bombaywalla @t_for_talli @baajey you guys are witness of Shashtra satyApana or Svatantraprama of this Guy and his tribe.


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## Joe Shearer

Brahmarshi said:


> wrong on so many levels.
> 
> 1) bharathas was collection of Total Victorious tribes under Rishi Vishvamitra who invaded local Aryan tribes who were fighting under rishi Vashistha.
> 
> 2) there was no tribe named bharatha as it was collection of various Tribes that Attacked older settled Vedic Tribes of doab Region.
> 
> 3) 10 Tribes were Nomandic who settled in Afghanistan and West of Ravi river during first phase of Vedic Period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5) i dont remember correctly, but the battle of 10 kings happened either at Triveni Sangam of ravi and Chinab or at Setluj and Ravi.
> 
> maybe joe @Joe Shearer can clarify these things.
> 
> 
> 
> every tom dick and harry claims that they are from kshatriya tribes be it Ahir, Jat, Gujjar or even Yadav. means nothing to us.
> 
> 
> 
> Rajput site means nothing as they are also forming "AJGR" Tribe to strength their position. Ahir, Jat, Gujjar and Rajput. upper class of Rajputs dont even allow lower class of Rajput to sit with them much less give them their daughter or take daughter of their lower rajput tribes.
> 
> you should google case of Anandpal, she suddenly became mascot of Rajput unity after his encounter but just few years ago he was not even allowed to use Ghodi/Horse in his own marriage because he belonged to lower class of Rajputs. he had to ask to Brahmins to bless his marriage by visiting it thus, giving some extra social prestige and hire Jat and Ahir Gundas/Dons of local are to protect his marriage from upper class of Rajputs.
> 
> lol kid i am a Brahmin, these titles and classification were made by us and given to those who were of proper twice born heritage and following their Respective Dharma.
> 
> every twice born Person of India be it Brahmin or Rajput or Baniya have their Ancestry written by Brahmins of Varanasi or Dawarika. i have Muslim Chauhan friend and even he was able to find his ancestors based on Details of his converted forefather.
> 
> if you are a real Rajput than tell me your clans.
> 
> 1) Brahmand
> 2) Vansh
> 3) Shakha
> 4) veda
> 5) Guru
> 6) kuldevi
> 7) IstaDevta
> 8) Mahadev
> 9) kul pita
> 10) sahayak
> 11) Rajguru
> 12) Rajgor
> 13) Bhat
> 14) yagna
> 15) pavitra bhoomi
> 16) pradesh
> 
> my Chauhan friend was able to give 12 our of 16 details mentioned above. you only have to answer 16 out of 50 question to prove that you are a Rajput not a jat, can you do that ? after that you have to give detailed answer of your vansh and origins. *since you said that your tribe have kept ancestral records* it will be very easy for you. and do us a favor and *do not tag Mellecha as source* who had no idea about how things works here and said that jats and gujjars are rajput/Kshatriya tribes.
> 
> bhatis are real Rajputs and their are from Marwad region of Southern Rajasthan. but according to some well known Pakistani Members of this very forum, *every tom dick and harry claims Rajput origin when he leaves his village and moves to city or distant place.* Rajput is like title there not ethnicity. it so rampant that today Bhatti Surname is considered kammi surname in Central and southern punjab joe.
> 
> @Joe Shearer even those Muhajir Rajuts of Haryana and Rajasthan dont give their Daughters to Punjabi Rajputs and call them Fake Rajputs/Wannabe Rajputs....
> 
> lets see maybe you and me will learn something new today.
> 
> @Kashmiri Pandit @Indika @Guardians of the Galaxy @Kedardel @Laozi @MULUBJA @Bombaywalla @t_for_talli @baajey you guys are witness of Shashtra satyApana or Svatantraprama of this Guy and his tribe.



You have to give me a little time. 

However, if you have seen that film about Jolly LLB2, the catechism you have set for those claiming to be Rajputs reminded me of the scene where the lawyer tries to prove that the godman is no Hindu but a terrorist in disguise.


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

Brahmarshi said:


> wrong on so many levels.
> 
> 1) bharathas was collection of Total Victorious tribes under Rishi Vishvamitra who invaded local Aryan tribes who were fighting under rishi Vashistha.
> 
> 2) there was no tribe named bharatha as it was collection of various Tribes that Attacked older settled Vedic Tribes of doab Region.
> 
> 3) 10 Tribes were Nomandic who settled in Afghanistan and West of Ravi river during first phase of Vedic Period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5) i dont remember correctly, but the battle of 10 kings happened either at Triveni Sangam of ravi and Chinab or at Setluj and Ravi.
> 
> maybe joe @Joe Shearer can clarify these things.
> 
> 
> 
> every tom dick and harry claims that they are from kshatriya tribes be it Ahir, Jat, Gujjar or even Yadav. means nothing to us.
> 
> 
> 
> Rajput site means nothing as they are also forming "AJGR" Tribe to strength their position. Ahir, Jat, Gujjar and Rajput. upper class of Rajputs dont even allow lower class of Rajput to sit with them much less give them their daughter or take daughter of their lower rajput tribes.
> 
> you should google case of Anandpal, she suddenly became mascot of Rajput unity after his encounter but just few years ago he was not even allowed to use Ghodi/Horse in his own marriage because he belonged to lower class of Rajputs. he had to ask to Brahmins to bless his marriage by visiting it thus, giving some extra social prestige and hire Jat and Ahir Gundas/Dons of local are to protect his marriage from upper class of Rajputs.
> 
> lol kid i am a Brahmin, these titles and classification were made by us and given to those who were of proper twice born heritage and following their Respective Dharma.
> 
> every twice born Person of India be it Brahmin or Rajput or Baniya have their Ancestry written by Brahmins of Varanasi or Dawarika. i have Muslim Chauhan friend and even he was able to find his ancestors based on Details of his converted forefather.
> 
> if you are a real Rajput than tell me your clans.
> 
> 1) Brahmand
> 2) Vansh
> 3) Shakha
> 4) veda
> 5) Guru
> 6) kuldevi
> 7) IstaDevta
> 8) Mahadev
> 9) kul pita
> 10) sahayak
> 11) Rajguru
> 12) Rajgor
> 13) Bhat
> 14) yagna
> 15) pavitra bhoomi
> 16) pradesh
> 
> my Chauhan friend was able to give 12 our of 16 details mentioned above. you only have to answer 16 out of 50 question to prove that you are a Rajput not a jat, can you do that ? after that you have to give detailed answer of your vansh and origins. *since you said that your tribe have kept ancestral records* it will be very easy for you. and do us a favor and *do not tag Mellecha as source* who had no idea about how things works here and said that jats and gujjars are rajput/Kshatriya tribes.
> 
> bhatis are real Rajputs and their are from Marwad region of Southern Rajasthan. but according to some well known Pakistani Members of this very forum, *every tom dick and harry claims Rajput origin when he leaves his village and moves to city or distant place.* Rajput is like title there not ethnicity. it so rampant that today Bhatti Surname is considered kammi surname in Central and southern punjab joe.
> 
> @Joe Shearer even those Muhajir Rajuts of Haryana and Rajasthan dont give their Daughters to Punjabi Rajputs and call them Fake Rajputs/Wannabe Rajputs....
> 
> lets see maybe you and me will learn something new today.
> 
> @Kashmiri Pandit @Indika @Guardians of the Galaxy @Kedardel @Laozi @MULUBJA @Bombaywalla @t_for_talli @baajey you guys are witness of Shashtra satyApana or Svatantraprama of this Guy and his tribe.


You sound dalit to me . Every dalit pretend to be brahmin on internet but Mr dalit you should not talk about stuffs which you dont know. Now let me educate you about history of Janjua Rajputs


The Janjua Rajputs are a branch of the ancient Pandava Dynasty. The Pandavas were a Chandravanshi Kuru branch of the ancient Vedic Aryans of India descending primarily from the legendary vedic King Pururava (also known as Puru) and lived in about the 14th century BC. "General Alexander Cunningham of India concluded the Janjua to be of Aryan origin" (Panjab Castes, Sir Denzil Ibbetson, Delhi 2002, p99). Arjuna, the famous Pandava Kshatriya hero of the Mahabharata epic is known as the most prominent father of this dynasty. Prince Arjun was the first cousin of the famed Hindu prince Lord Krishna and married Krishna's sister, Subhadra, to extend his dynasty. "It was Prince Arjun who carried out Krishna's funeral rites" (Arjuna in the Mahabhrata by Ruth Cecily Katz, University of South Carolina, 1989, back matter).

The apical ancestor of the Janjuas - Maharaja Janamejaya (until c. 1000 BC), King of Hastinapur [the capital of which was Indraprasta (modern day Delhi)] who was the great grandson of Arjuna Pandava (through his father Parikshit, son of Abhimanyu son of Arjuna). Maharaja Janamejaya was also known as the "Serpent Killer" after the famous mass revenge killing of all snakes and the "Nagas" people - people possibly of Tibetan origin who were rulers of a nearby state responsible for the assassination of his father Parikshit. His descendants were also known historically as the Pandavas and the Pauravas.

India's other name Bharat or Bharat-Varsh is actually named after a forefather of the Pandava dynasty, Bharat (until c. 1300BC). Bharat-Varsh means "Kingdom of Bharat" ("Recruiting, Drafting, and Enlisting (Military and Society, 1)"Peter Karsten, 1998, USA, p119). The Mahabharata epic is a narration which records a war between Bharat's later descendants the Pandavas and their cousins the Kauravas for the throne of Hastinapur. This epic is also believed to be the world's longest poem and Janamejaya was responsible for the retelling of it. The Pandavas were also known as Pauravas after another prominent ancestor Puru.

The Pauravas ruled Kekaya which was widely known as the Kingdom of the Puru/Pauravas Clan and it was Rai Por or more popularly known in the west as King Porus who fought Alexander the Great in 326 BC (in what is now Jhelum, Pakistan) in the famed Battle of the Hydaspes. It is said: “Unlike Darius, Porus fought aboard his elephant until the end..In victory Alexander treated Porus with the dignity reserved for a great warrior reinstating him a vassal king and sealing the bond of friendship” (The Horse in the Ancient World by Ann Hyland 2002 Sutton Publ.,p161). According to Arian, Alexander is said to have asked King Porus "How would you like me to treat you?" to which Porus famously replied "As a Raja (king)". The answer touched Alexander, who in return allowed the Raja of the Pauravas to retain his Kingdom (Alexander the Great - Nick McCarty, Carlton Books, 2004, p111). The "List of Indian monarchs" gives an account of the period of rule of the Bharata-Puru-Pandava-Pauravas-Janjua Shahi phase from approx 1600BC to 1026AD.

It must also be noted here that although the Janjuas are essentially Pandavas, the famous Jarral Rajput, a powerful Rajput dynasty who ruled Rajaur for well over 600 years were also Pandavas by origin through Nanak Rao, the brother of "Maharaja of the Kurus" Janamejaya. A known scion of the Pandava dynasty through Janamejaya became a very well known and recognised warrior king in his time. His name was Rai Janjua Paal. He was famous for his conquests and warlike temperament and was believed to be the last emperor of Hastinapur. He named his branch as Janjua henceforth and this name has remained in his dynasty. From about 964AD, the Janjua chief Parambhattaraka Maharajadhiraja Paramesvara Sri Jayapaladeva (Epithets known from the Bari Kot inscriptions) succeeded the Brahmin Hindu Shahi Emperor Bhimdev. The Janjua Shahiya emperors now ruled from Ghandar (Kandahar of Afghanistan) to the whole of Punjab in what was known as the second phase of the Hindu Shahiya or the Janjua Shahi Dynasty.

Famed ethnologists and Indo researchers Sir Alexander Cunningham (Coins of Medieval India Reprint. Varanasi:1967 p56,p62), Elliot and Dowson (The History of India as told by it's own historians [Indian repr.1962].vol.i, p.22,425-26) and Sachau (Alberuni's India London 1914, vol.ii, p393-94) led research into the origins of the Pala Hindu Shahiya, the second dynasty that succeeded the initial Brahmin Dev Shahiyas. Through independent research they concluded that the origins of Emperor Jayapala Shah was in fact in the Janjua Rajput. In 1973's Al-Biruni International Congress in Pakistan, Dr Hussain Khan presented a paper in called "An Interpretation of Al-Biruni's Account of the Hindu Shahiyas of Kabul" which also confirmed the same findings. Finally, the Janjuas own genealogy records the names of the Janjua Shahi Jayapala as well as the continued descendants of his House (Gazetteer of the Jhelum District, Lahore 1904, p93).

Jayapala was challenged by the armies of Sabuktigin and his son Sultan Mahmud towards the end of his reign as emperor. According to the Minháj ad-Dīn in his chronicle Tabaqát-i Násiri (Tabaqát-i Násiri, H. G. Raverty's trans., Vol.1, p.82), writes a testament to the political and powerful stature of Emperor Jayapala Shah, "Jayapála, who is the greatest of all the ráis (kings) of Hind..." Upon being captured after a fierce battle with Sultan Mahmud, Jayapala was ransomed and upon his release, "he ordered the construction of a funeral pyre. Mounting and setting it alight, he nobly perished in the flames" (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sáhis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi Renaissance publishing house. p147). Misra wrote:"Jaypala was perhaps the last Indian ruler to show such spirit of aggression, so sadly lacking in later Rajput kings" (R.G.Misra, Indian Resistance to Early Muslim Invaders Up to 1206 AD, Anu Books, repr.1992).

Jayapala's son, prince Anandapala who ascended the throne (in about March/April 1002AD) already proved an able warrior and General in leading many battles prior to his ascension. According to Adáb al-Harb (p.307-10) in about 990, "the arrogant but ambitious Raja of Lahore Bharat, having put his father in confinement, marched on the country of Jayapála with the intention of conquering the districts of Nandana, Jailum and Tákeshar." Jayapala instructed prince Anandapala to repel the opportunist Raja Bharat. Anandapala defeated Bharat and took him prisoner in the battle of Takeshar and marched on Lahore and captured the city and extended his father's kingdom yet further. During Anandpala's reign many losses were incurred on his kingdom by the Ghaznavids. During the battle of Chach between Sultan Mahmud and Anandapala, it is stated that "a body of 30,000 Gakhars fought alongside as soldiers for the Shahi Emperor and incurred huge losses for the Ghaznavids" (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sahis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi 1988,p152). It is also mentioned in the same text that "the Gakhars (or Khokhars) formed a very significant force in the armies of the Sáhis". Despite the heavy losses of the enemy, he eventually lost the battle and suffered much financial and territorial loss. This was Anandapala's last stand against Sultan Mahmud. Anandpala eventually signed a treaty with the Ghaznavid empire in 1010AD and shortly a year later died a peaceful death. R.C Majumdar (D.V. Potdar Commemoration Volume, Poona 1950, p.351) compared him ironically to his dynasty's ancient famous ancestor "Porus, who bravely opposed Alexander but later submitted and helped in subduing other Indian rulers." And Tahqíq Má li'l-Hind (p 351) finally revered Anandapala in his legacy as noble and courageous.

Tirlochanpála, the son of Anandapala, ascended the throne in about 1011AD. Inheriting a reduced kingdom, he immediately set about expanding his kingdom into the Siwalik Hills, the region of the Rai of Sharwa. His kingdom now extended from the River Indus to the upper Ganges valley. According to Al-Biruni, Tirlochanpála "was well inclined towards the Muslims" and was honourable in his loyalty to his father's peace treaty to the Ghaznavids. He later rebelled against Sultan Mahmud and was eventually assassinated by some of his own mutinous troops in 1021-22AD, an assassination which was believed to have been instigated by the Rai of Sharwa who became his arch-enemy due to Tirlochanpala's expansion into the Siwalik ranges (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sahis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi 1988,p166). Trilochanpala was romanticised in Punjabi folklore as the Last Punjabi ruler of Punjab.

Bhímapála, son of Tirlochanpala, succeeded his father in 1021-22AD. He was referred to by Utbí (vil.ii, p.151) as "Bhīm, the Fearless" due to his courage and valour. Considering his kingdom was at its lowest point, possibly only to the control of Nandana, he admirably earned the title of fearless from his enemy's own chronicle writer. He is known to have led the battle of Nandana personally and seriously wounding the Commander of the Ghaznavid army Muhammad bin Ibrahim at-Tāī. He ruled only five years after his father before meeting his death in 1026AD. Bhimpala's remaining descendants, Rudrapal and his brothers Diddápála and Anangapāla had settled in Kashmir and played a major role in the court of Kashmirian king Ananta (1028-63AD). According to the Rājtarahginī (vii, p.145), Rudrapal proved himself extravagant in personal valour by crushing the rebels of the king, as commander in chief of the Kashmiri royal army. Al-Biruni, despite living under Sultan Mahmud's grace, praises the house of Jayapala: “ We must say that in all their grandeur, they never slackened in the ardent desire of doing that which is good and right, that they were men of noble sentiment and noble bearing ”. In Kalhana in Rājtarahginī, writes of the Janjua Shahis: “Where is the Shahi dynasty with its ministers, its kings, and its great grandeur? ... The very name of the splendor of Shahi kings has vanished. What is not seen in dream, what even our imagination cannot conceive, that dynasty accomplished with ease ”.

Raja Dhrupet Dev Janjua ruled Mathura state in about 1150AD. Dhrupet Dev was also the ruler of the Mandu fort of the Siwalik hills. He was well known for being a Pandava descendant through Prince Arjun's great grandson Maharaja Janamejaya. Raja Dhrupet's rule of Mathura ended in 1195AD when Qutb-ud-din Aybak, the general of the Ghorid army, attacked Mathura and exiled the ruling royal family. According to Mohyal historians (Gulshan-e-Mohyali) Raja Dhrupet's younger brother Raja Shripat Dev, accompanied the exile back to the Siwalik hills. Shripat Dev later, "established his dominion at Katasraj (old name Namaksar) in Tehsil Pind Dadan Khan, Distt. Jhelum." The Mohyal commanders in chief of the Janjua army at this point were Rai Tirlok Nath Bali and Bam Dev Bhimwal (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose, 1990, p134). Regarding the Janjuas' descent from the Pandavas dynasty, the Bali and Bhimwal generals of Raja Dhrupet Dev of Mathura, recorded that the Janjua Raja Dhrupet Dev was the descendant of Emperor Janamejaya. "This reference was recorded in 1195AD" (Culture and Political History of Kashmir by Prithivi Nath Kaul Bamzai, MD Publ. Ltd., 1994, p637, p669, p670). Sir Lepel H Griffin K.C.S.I. had also recorded in the early 1900s "the Janjuas were Pandavas in origin" (Punjab Chiefs, L.H.Griffin, 1909 Lahore, p213).

Raja Dhrupet Dev was the father of a famous Janjua Chief Raja Ajmal Dev Janjua who embraced Islam in the 12th century and rose to become the next rising force of the Janjua Rajput. He followed the Islamic tradition of changing his name after conversion but was better known as Raja Mal Khan. He was among the first Muslim Rajputs recorded in Indian history. Raja Mal's conversion took place whilst he was in his teens and he inclined towards Islamic philosophy of the Sufis brought by the Dervishes of the Chistiya order, before the armies of Shahabudin Ghauri entered into the Indian Potohar Plateau. Raja Mal Khan migrated from Mandu fort in the Siwalik Hills to the Koh-i-Jud and settled at Rajgarh which he later renamed Mal-Kot (Malot). He re-conquered the Salt Ranges of Punjab to establish the dominion which his forefathers lost almost two centuries earlier to the Ghaznavids (Journal of Central Asia Vol. XIII. No.1, 1990,p.78). [Malot was originally called Shahghar or Rajghar - meaning home of the Shahis/Kings but was later changed to Malot (Mal-Kot) in recognition of its famous King, Raja Mal.]

The Tarikh-e-Alfi of the Ghorids mentions the rebellious behaviour of Raja Mal Khan towards the Delhi Sultanate. It records that a "Rai Mal" of the mountains between Lahore and Kabul excited a rebellion against them and intercepted communications between Lahore and Ghazni (Chronicles of Early Janjuas Dr Hussain Khan, iUniverse, 2003, p16). There is still today remnants of an ancient fort in Malot, Chakwal which was initially built by the Shahis and later rebuilt by Raja Mal Khan. It is also inscribed that the last Hindu Shahi prince Raja Mal embraced Islam at this place. Raja Mal Khan was also the first ruler to begin the mining of salt in the Salt Ranges of Kallar Kahar and in the Khewra Salt Mines of Punjab which is currently the world's second largest salt mine. Other Janjua descendants include Ranial/Dhamial Rajputs, Tanoli Rajputs (also spelt Tanaulis/ Tanawalis), Pulowal Rajputs, Hindwal Rajputs and Khakha Rajputs who are essentially the descendants of Raja Bhir, Raja Tanoli and Raja Khakha respectively. Raja Bhir, Tanoli, Khakha, Jodh and Kala are all sons of the famous Janjua chief, Raja Mal Khan Janjua. (for further details see Chakri Rajgan - Home )

The Janjua Rajputs are a prominent tribe of Punjab (both Pakistani and Indian Punjab). They have a history that spans centuries through various notable rulers, tribal chiefs, princes and kings since the time of the Mahabharat to the present age through Chief of Army Staff, Pakistan -General Asif Nawaz Khan Janjua. They were amongst the earliest Rajput converts to Islam and established their own Riyasats (kingdoms) during the 12th century which up until the early 19th century remained in their respective control. Janjuas rebelled against the Delhi Sultanate in the early 13th century and also later aided the Mughal conqueror Babur's route into India with other allied mountain tribes and served in the Mughal army in their conquests of India. Many forts within Punjab are still remnant of their royal past, such as the Kusak fort, Sohava fort, Girjaak fort in Makhiala Jhelum, Malot fort in Chakwal District, Nagi fort, Dalowal fort, Dhandot fort, Kath Saghral and Masral fort, Dhak Janjua fort, Akrand fort and many more. They have played a major part in Punjabi history in their regions through their alliances and rebellions with invaders and other mountainous warrior tribes.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

*The Janjuas of Punjab*
By Lt Gen Bhopinder Singh (Retd)
Posted at: Mar 5, 2017, 12:57 AM
Last updated: Mar 5, 2017, 12:57 AM (IST)


The sub-continent’s past has ensured that the fertile plains of Punjab, on either side of the Line of Control, have a sprinkling of the illustrious ‘Janjuas’ who could be Muslims, Sikhs or Hindus. Tracing their antiquity and ancestry to the Pandavas (direct bloodline of Arjuna) and to the fabled ‘Rai Por’ or King Porus who fought Alexander — this warrior sect was designated as the so-called ‘martial caste’ by the British. 

With proud Rajput heritage of soldering and chivalrous instincts, the Janjuas are mostly settled in modern-day Pakistan (in the districts of Rawalpindi, Jhelum, Chakwal and Mirpur), and are predominantly Muslim by faith. The sub-classification of this sect branched into family names like Ranial, Gaharwal, Jatal, Dhamial etc. Considering a combined population in India and Pakistan of approximately 3 lakh Janjuas, they have punched way above their weight in terms of the historical narrative and the current societal prominence. 

When the dust finally settled on the much-awaited race for the new foreign secretary of Pakistan, it was the lower-in-seniority, Tehmina Janjua who pipped the hot-favourite and senior most, Abdul Basit (Ambassador to India), to the post. As the first women to become Pakistan’s top diplomat, she will share the rough and tumble of navigating Pakistan’s fate in the choppy seas of sub-continental affairs, along with Lt General Nasser Khan Janjua (retired), the serving National Security Adviser (NSA) of Pakistan. 

Lt General Janjua earned his post-retirement assignment due to his robust military record of commanding a brigade on the Pakistani side of the Siachen Glacier, serving critical appointments like DGMO, Strike Corp Commander and as the Vice Chief of General Staff. 

Raheel Sharif is a quintessential Janjua with an impressive and impeccable military lineage. His elder brother Major Rana Shabbir Sharif was honoured with the highest Pakistani gallantry award ‘Nishan-e-Haider’ in the 1971 Indo-Pak war, and his maternal uncle Major Raja Aziz Bhatti had also won the ‘Nishan-e-Haider’ in the 1965 Indo-Pak war. However, Gen Raheel Sharif was not the first Janjua to be the Chief of Pakistan Army — the honour goes to the Sandhurst-trained, General Asif Nawaz Janjua (1991-93). Like General Raheel Sharif, General Asif Nawaz was known to be the rare Pakistani COAS who showed no inclination towards politics and was essentially liberal, above-board and anti-fundamentalism. 

The soldering ethos of the Janjuas are aptly captured by the Rawalpindi District Gazetteer Robertson, “The Janjua Rajputs possess a proud martial reputation and rank very highly as the aristocracy of the Salt Range. Their pride in their ancestry is renowned and they are always addressed by their ancestral title of Raja.” 

The myriad spread of forts in Sohava, Dalowal, Kusak, Girjaak, Malot, Nagi are reflective of their fiefdoms that were zealously guarded by the fierce Janjuas of the region. 

Pakistan’s religio-sectarian divide has denied the rightful place to Major General Iftikhar Khan Janjua, the highest serving soldier to have died in a battle. Relegated to the dust shelves of the Pakistani military historians, is the unsung saga of a gallant Brigadier in the Rann of Kutch sector in 1965 war, and later the inspirational leader who led from the front, whilst commanding the 23rd Infantry Division in the Chamb Sector, only to die in a battle when his helicopter was brought down. His belonging to the Ahamadiyya faith (ostensibly ‘non-Muslim’ in Pakistan), suppressed his heroics in the annals of Pakistan. The noble warriors with the finest martial instincts are yet another example of the shared history, ethos and the civilizational-connect that is often forgotten in the storms of the Indo-Pak relationship. 

*— The writer is former Lt Governor of Andaman & Nicobar Islands & Puducherry*


http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/sunday-special/perspective/the-janjuas-of-punjab/372811.html


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## Joe Shearer

Although I don't agree with many points in this note, please accept my compliments on a very well written and comprehensive, 360 degree view of the subject.

Really informative.

This is without prejudice to @Brahmarshi and his contrasting note.

This is also in spite of the gratuitous insult to another member contained within. Although personally I might make light of an accusation of being dalit, that remark might be construed as a deep and wounding insult by another. It was unnecessary. [Post amended] 



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You sound dalit to me . Every dalit pretend to be brahmin on internet but Mr dalit you should not talk about stuffs which you dont know. Now let me educate you about history of Janjua Rajputs
> 
> 
> The Janjua Rajputs are a branch of the ancient Pandava Dynasty. The Pandavas were a Chandravanshi Kuru branch of the ancient Vedic Aryans of India descending primarily from the legendary vedic King Pururava (also known as Puru) and lived in about the 14th century BC. "General Alexander Cunningham of India concluded the Janjua to be of Aryan origin" (Panjab Castes, Sir Denzil Ibbetson, Delhi 2002, p99). Arjuna, the famous Pandava Kshatriya hero of the Mahabharata epic is known as the most prominent father of this dynasty. Prince Arjun was the first cousin of the famed Hindu prince Lord Krishna and married Krishna's sister, Subhadra, to extend his dynasty. "It was Prince Arjun who carried out Krishna's funeral rites" (Arjuna in the Mahabhrata by Ruth Cecily Katz, University of South Carolina, 1989, back matter).
> 
> The apical ancestor of the Janjuas - Maharaja Janamejaya (until c. 1000 BC), King of Hastinapur [the capital of which was Indraprasta (modern day Delhi)] who was the great grandson of Arjuna Pandava (through his father Parikshit, son of Abhimanyu son of Arjuna). Maharaja Janamejaya was also known as the "Serpent Killer" after the famous mass revenge killing of all snakes and the "Nagas" people - people possibly of Tibetan origin who were rulers of a nearby state responsible for the assassination of his father Parikshit. His descendants were also known historically as the Pandavas and the Pauravas.
> 
> India's other name Bharat or Bharat-Varsh is actually named after a forefather of the Pandava dynasty, Bharat (until c. 1300BC). Bharat-Varsh means "Kingdom of Bharat" ("Recruiting, Drafting, and Enlisting (Military and Society, 1)"Peter Karsten, 1998, USA, p119). The Mahabharata epic is a narration which records a war between Bharat's later descendants the Pandavas and their cousins the Kauravas for the throne of Hastinapur. This epic is also believed to be the world's longest poem and Janamejaya was responsible for the retelling of it. The Pandavas were also known as Pauravas after another prominent ancestor Puru.
> 
> The Pauravas ruled Kekaya which was widely known as the Kingdom of the Puru/Pauravas Clan and it was Rai Por or more popularly known in the west as King Porus who fought Alexander the Great in 326 BC (in what is now Jhelum, Pakistan) in the famed Battle of the Hydaspes. It is said: “Unlike Darius, Porus fought aboard his elephant until the end..In victory Alexander treated Porus with the dignity reserved for a great warrior reinstating him a vassal king and sealing the bond of friendship” (The Horse in the Ancient World by Ann Hyland 2002 Sutton Publ.,p161). According to Arian, Alexander is said to have asked King Porus "How would you like me to treat you?" to which Porus famously replied "As a Raja (king)". The answer touched Alexander, who in return allowed the Raja of the Pauravas to retain his Kingdom (Alexander the Great - Nick McCarty, Carlton Books, 2004, p111). The "List of Indian monarchs" gives an account of the period of rule of the Bharata-Puru-Pandava-Pauravas-Janjua Shahi phase from approx 1600BC to 1026AD.
> 
> It must also be noted here that although the Janjuas are essentially Pandavas, the famous Jarral Rajput, a powerful Rajput dynasty who ruled Rajaur for well over 600 years were also Pandavas by origin through Nanak Rao, the brother of "Maharaja of the Kurus" Janamejaya. A known scion of the Pandava dynasty through Janamejaya became a very well known and recognised warrior king in his time. His name was Rai Janjua Paal. He was famous for his conquests and warlike temperament and was believed to be the last emperor of Hastinapur. He named his branch as Janjua henceforth and this name has remained in his dynasty. From about 964AD, the Janjua chief Parambhattaraka Maharajadhiraja Paramesvara Sri Jayapaladeva (Epithets known from the Bari Kot inscriptions) succeeded the Brahmin Hindu Shahi Emperor Bhimdev. The Janjua Shahiya emperors now ruled from Ghandar (Kandahar of Afghanistan) to the whole of Punjab in what was known as the second phase of the Hindu Shahiya or the Janjua Shahi Dynasty.
> 
> Famed ethnologists and Indo researchers Sir Alexander Cunningham (Coins of Medieval India Reprint. Varanasi:1967 p56,p62), Elliot and Dowson (The History of India as told by it's own historians [Indian repr.1962].vol.i, p.22,425-26) and Sachau (Alberuni's India London 1914, vol.ii, p393-94) led research into the origins of the Pala Hindu Shahiya, the second dynasty that succeeded the initial Brahmin Dev Shahiyas. Through independent research they concluded that the origins of Emperor Jayapala Shah was in fact in the Janjua Rajput. In 1973's Al-Biruni International Congress in Pakistan, Dr Hussain Khan presented a paper in called "An Interpretation of Al-Biruni's Account of the Hindu Shahiyas of Kabul" which also confirmed the same findings. Finally, the Janjuas own genealogy records the names of the Janjua Shahi Jayapala as well as the continued descendants of his House (Gazetteer of the Jhelum District, Lahore 1904, p93).
> 
> Jayapala was challenged by the armies of Sabuktigin and his son Sultan Mahmud towards the end of his reign as emperor. According to the Minháj ad-Dīn in his chronicle Tabaqát-i Násiri (Tabaqát-i Násiri, H. G. Raverty's trans., Vol.1, p.82), writes a testament to the political and powerful stature of Emperor Jayapala Shah, "Jayapála, who is the greatest of all the ráis (kings) of Hind..." Upon being captured after a fierce battle with Sultan Mahmud, Jayapala was ransomed and upon his release, "he ordered the construction of a funeral pyre. Mounting and setting it alight, he nobly perished in the flames" (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sáhis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi Renaissance publishing house. p147). Misra wrote:"Jaypala was perhaps the last Indian ruler to show such spirit of aggression, so sadly lacking in later Rajput kings" (R.G.Misra, Indian Resistance to Early Muslim Invaders Up to 1206 AD, Anu Books, repr.1992).
> 
> Jayapala's son, prince Anandapala who ascended the throne (in about March/April 1002AD) already proved an able warrior and General in leading many battles prior to his ascension. According to Adáb al-Harb (p.307-10) in about 990, "the arrogant but ambitious Raja of Lahore Bharat, having put his father in confinement, marched on the country of Jayapála with the intention of conquering the districts of Nandana, Jailum and Tákeshar." Jayapala instructed prince Anandapala to repel the opportunist Raja Bharat. Anandapala defeated Bharat and took him prisoner in the battle of Takeshar and marched on Lahore and captured the city and extended his father's kingdom yet further. During Anandpala's reign many losses were incurred on his kingdom by the Ghaznavids. During the battle of Chach between Sultan Mahmud and Anandapala, it is stated that "a body of 30,000 Gakhars fought alongside as soldiers for the Shahi Emperor and incurred huge losses for the Ghaznavids" (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sahis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi 1988,p152). It is also mentioned in the same text that "the Gakhars (or Khokhars) formed a very significant force in the armies of the Sáhis". Despite the heavy losses of the enemy, he eventually lost the battle and suffered much financial and territorial loss. This was Anandapala's last stand against Sultan Mahmud. Anandpala eventually signed a treaty with the Ghaznavid empire in 1010AD and shortly a year later died a peaceful death. R.C Majumdar (D.V. Potdar Commemoration Volume, Poona 1950, p.351) compared him ironically to his dynasty's ancient famous ancestor "Porus, who bravely opposed Alexander but later submitted and helped in subduing other Indian rulers." And Tahqíq Má li'l-Hind (p 351) finally revered Anandapala in his legacy as noble and courageous.
> 
> Tirlochanpála, the son of Anandapala, ascended the throne in about 1011AD. Inheriting a reduced kingdom, he immediately set about expanding his kingdom into the Siwalik Hills, the region of the Rai of Sharwa. His kingdom now extended from the River Indus to the upper Ganges valley. According to Al-Biruni, Tirlochanpála "was well inclined towards the Muslims" and was honourable in his loyalty to his father's peace treaty to the Ghaznavids. He later rebelled against Sultan Mahmud and was eventually assassinated by some of his own mutinous troops in 1021-22AD, an assassination which was believed to have been instigated by the Rai of Sharwa who became his arch-enemy due to Tirlochanpala's expansion into the Siwalik ranges (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sahis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi 1988,p166). Trilochanpala was romanticised in Punjabi folklore as the Last Punjabi ruler of Punjab.
> 
> Bhímapála, son of Tirlochanpala, succeeded his father in 1021-22AD. He was referred to by Utbí (vil.ii, p.151) as "Bhīm, the Fearless" due to his courage and valour. Considering his kingdom was at its lowest point, possibly only to the control of Nandana, he admirably earned the title of fearless from his enemy's own chronicle writer. He is known to have led the battle of Nandana personally and seriously wounding the Commander of the Ghaznavid army Muhammad bin Ibrahim at-Tāī. He ruled only five years after his father before meeting his death in 1026AD. Bhimpala's remaining descendants, Rudrapal and his brothers Diddápála and Anangapāla had settled in Kashmir and played a major role in the court of Kashmirian king Ananta (1028-63AD). According to the Rājtarahginī (vii, p.145), Rudrapal proved himself extravagant in personal valour by crushing the rebels of the king, as commander in chief of the Kashmiri royal army. Al-Biruni, despite living under Sultan Mahmud's grace, praises the house of Jayapala: “ We must say that in all their grandeur, they never slackened in the ardent desire of doing that which is good and right, that they were men of noble sentiment and noble bearing ”. In Kalhana in Rājtarahginī, writes of the Janjua Shahis: “Where is the Shahi dynasty with its ministers, its kings, and its great grandeur? ... The very name of the splendor of Shahi kings has vanished. What is not seen in dream, what even our imagination cannot conceive, that dynasty accomplished with ease ”.
> 
> Raja Dhrupet Dev Janjua ruled Mathura state in about 1150AD. Dhrupet Dev was also the ruler of the Mandu fort of the Siwalik hills. He was well known for being a Pandava descendant through Prince Arjun's great grandson Maharaja Janamejaya. Raja Dhrupet's rule of Mathura ended in 1195AD when Qutb-ud-din Aybak, the general of the Ghorid army, attacked Mathura and exiled the ruling royal family. According to Mohyal historians (Gulshan-e-Mohyali) Raja Dhrupet's younger brother Raja Shripat Dev, accompanied the exile back to the Siwalik hills. Shripat Dev later, "established his dominion at Katasraj (old name Namaksar) in Tehsil Pind Dadan Khan, Distt. Jhelum." The Mohyal commanders in chief of the Janjua army at this point were Rai Tirlok Nath Bali and Bam Dev Bhimwal (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose, 1990, p134). Regarding the Janjuas' descent from the Pandavas dynasty, the Bali and Bhimwal generals of Raja Dhrupet Dev of Mathura, recorded that the Janjua Raja Dhrupet Dev was the descendant of Emperor Janamejaya. "This reference was recorded in 1195AD" (Culture and Political History of Kashmir by Prithivi Nath Kaul Bamzai, MD Publ. Ltd., 1994, p637, p669, p670). Sir Lepel H Griffin K.C.S.I. had also recorded in the early 1900s "the Janjuas were Pandavas in origin" (Punjab Chiefs, L.H.Griffin, 1909 Lahore, p213).
> 
> Raja Dhrupet Dev was the father of a famous Janjua Chief Raja Ajmal Dev Janjua who embraced Islam in the 12th century and rose to become the next rising force of the Janjua Rajput. He followed the Islamic tradition of changing his name after conversion but was better known as Raja Mal Khan. He was among the first Muslim Rajputs recorded in Indian history. Raja Mal's conversion took place whilst he was in his teens and he inclined towards Islamic philosophy of the Sufis brought by the Dervishes of the Chistiya order, before the armies of Shahabudin Ghauri entered into the Indian Potohar Plateau. Raja Mal Khan migrated from Mandu fort in the Siwalik Hills to the Koh-i-Jud and settled at Rajgarh which he later renamed Mal-Kot (Malot). He re-conquered the Salt Ranges of Punjab to establish the dominion which his forefathers lost almost two centuries earlier to the Ghaznavids (Journal of Central Asia Vol. XIII. No.1, 1990,p.78). [Malot was originally called Shahghar or Rajghar - meaning home of the Shahis/Kings but was later changed to Malot (Mal-Kot) in recognition of its famous King, Raja Mal.]
> 
> The Tarikh-e-Alfi of the Ghorids mentions the rebellious behaviour of Raja Mal Khan towards the Delhi Sultanate. It records that a "Rai Mal" of the mountains between Lahore and Kabul excited a rebellion against them and intercepted communications between Lahore and Ghazni (Chronicles of Early Janjuas Dr Hussain Khan, iUniverse, 2003, p16). There is still today remnants of an ancient fort in Malot, Chakwal which was initially built by the Shahis and later rebuilt by Raja Mal Khan. It is also inscribed that the last Hindu Shahi prince Raja Mal embraced Islam at this place. Raja Mal Khan was also the first ruler to begin the mining of salt in the Salt Ranges of Kallar Kahar and in the Khewra Salt Mines of Punjab which is currently the world's second largest salt mine. Other Janjua descendants include Ranial/Dhamial Rajputs, Tanoli Rajputs (also spelt Tanaulis/ Tanawalis), Pulowal Rajputs, Hindwal Rajputs and Khakha Rajputs who are essentially the descendants of Raja Bhir, Raja Tanoli and Raja Khakha respectively. Raja Bhir, Tanoli, Khakha, Jodh and Kala are all sons of the famous Janjua chief, Raja Mal Khan Janjua. (for further details see Chakri Rajgan - Home )
> 
> The Janjua Rajputs are a prominent tribe of Punjab (both Pakistani and Indian Punjab). They have a history that spans centuries through various notable rulers, tribal chiefs, princes and kings since the time of the Mahabharat to the present age through Chief of Army Staff, Pakistan -General Asif Nawaz Khan Janjua. They were amongst the earliest Rajput converts to Islam and established their own Riyasats (kingdoms) during the 12th century which up until the early 19th century remained in their respective control. Janjuas rebelled against the Delhi Sultanate in the early 13th century and also later aided the Mughal conqueror Babur's route into India with other allied mountain tribes and served in the Mughal army in their conquests of India. Many forts within Punjab are still remnant of their royal past, such as the Kusak fort, Sohava fort, Girjaak fort in Makhiala Jhelum, Malot fort in Chakwal District, Nagi fort, Dalowal fort, Dhandot fort, Kath Saghral and Masral fort, Dhak Janjua fort, Akrand fort and many more. They have played a major part in Punjabi history in their regions through their alliances and rebellions with invaders and other mountainous warrior tribes.





Proudpakistaniguy said:


> *The Janjuas of Punjab*
> By Lt Gen Bhopinder Singh (Retd)
> Posted at: Mar 5, 2017, 12:57 AM
> Last updated: Mar 5, 2017, 12:57 AM (IST)
> 
> 
> The sub-continent’s past has ensured that the fertile plains of Punjab, on either side of the Line of Control, have a sprinkling of the illustrious ‘Janjuas’ who could be Muslims, Sikhs or Hindus. Tracing their antiquity and ancestry to the Pandavas (direct bloodline of Arjuna) and to the fabled ‘Rai Por’ or King Porus who fought Alexander — this warrior sect was designated as the so-called ‘martial caste’ by the British.
> 
> With proud Rajput heritage of soldering and chivalrous instincts, the Janjuas are mostly settled in modern-day Pakistan (in the districts of Rawalpindi, Jhelum, Chakwal and Mirpur), and are predominantly Muslim by faith. The sub-classification of this sect branched into family names like Ranial, Gaharwal, Jatal, Dhamial etc. Considering a combined population in India and Pakistan of approximately 3 lakh Janjuas, they have punched way above their weight in terms of the historical narrative and the current societal prominence.
> 
> When the dust finally settled on the much-awaited race for the new foreign secretary of Pakistan, it was the lower-in-seniority, Tehmina Janjua who pipped the hot-favourite and senior most, Abdul Basit (Ambassador to India), to the post. As the first women to become Pakistan’s top diplomat, she will share the rough and tumble of navigating Pakistan’s fate in the choppy seas of sub-continental affairs, along with Lt General Nasser Khan Janjua (retired), the serving National Security Adviser (NSA) of Pakistan.
> 
> Lt General Janjua earned his post-retirement assignment due to his robust military record of commanding a brigade on the Pakistani side of the Siachen Glacier, serving critical appointments like DGMO, Strike Corp Commander and as the Vice Chief of General Staff.
> 
> Raheel Sharif is a quintessential Janjua with an impressive and impeccable military lineage. His elder brother Major Rana Shabbir Sharif was honoured with the highest Pakistani gallantry award ‘Nishan-e-Haider’ in the 1971 Indo-Pak war, and his maternal uncle Major Raja Aziz Bhatti had also won the ‘Nishan-e-Haider’ in the 1965 Indo-Pak war. However, Gen Raheel Sharif was not the first Janjua to be the Chief of Pakistan Army — the honour goes to the Sandhurst-trained, General Asif Nawaz Janjua (1991-93). Like General Raheel Sharif, General Asif Nawaz was known to be the rare Pakistani COAS who showed no inclination towards politics and was essentially liberal, above-board and anti-fundamentalism.
> 
> The soldering ethos of the Janjuas are aptly captured by the Rawalpindi District Gazetteer Robertson, “The Janjua Rajputs possess a proud martial reputation and rank very highly as the aristocracy of the Salt Range. Their pride in their ancestry is renowned and they are always addressed by their ancestral title of Raja.”
> 
> The myriad spread of forts in Sohava, Dalowal, Kusak, Girjaak, Malot, Nagi are reflective of their fiefdoms that were zealously guarded by the fierce Janjuas of the region.
> 
> Pakistan’s religio-sectarian divide has denied the rightful place to Major General Iftikhar Khan Janjua, the highest serving soldier to have died in a battle. Relegated to the dust shelves of the Pakistani military historians, is the unsung saga of a gallant Brigadier in the Rann of Kutch sector in 1965 war, and later the inspirational leader who led from the front, whilst commanding the 23rd Infantry Division in the Chamb Sector, only to die in a battle when his helicopter was brought down. His belonging to the Ahamadiyya faith (ostensibly ‘non-Muslim’ in Pakistan), suppressed his heroics in the annals of Pakistan. The noble warriors with the finest martial instincts are yet another example of the shared history, ethos and the civilizational-connect that is often forgotten in the storms of the Indo-Pak relationship.
> 
> *— The writer is former Lt Governor of Andaman & Nicobar Islands & Puducherry*
> 
> 
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/sunday-special/perspective/the-janjuas-of-punjab/372811.html



I am glad that this note mentions my personal hero among Pakistani general officers, Major General Iftikhar Khan Janjua (sometimes Eftekhar). His conduct of the battle of Chhamb in 1971 was masterly; his ability to switch the axis of attack from one flank to another never allowed his opposing 10th Div. to stop him, and the result was the only victory and the only accrual of territorial gain to the Pakistan Army in 1971.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Joe Shearer said:


> This is without prejudice to @Brahmarshi and his contrasting note.
> 
> This is also in spite of the gratuitous insult to another member contained within. Although personally I might make light of an accusation of being dalit, that remark might be construed as a deep and wounding insult by another. It was unnecessary, unworthy and ungracious, and spoilt the effect of an otherwise a very fine note.


Joe i have used word " Dalit" intentionally for this so called Brahman Brahmarshi who is here to give certificate of approval to others . Dalit should not be a offensive word for these so called brahmanz who invented this vile concept of untouchability and have been oppressing their own kind in the name of caste. Its your character which define you so i assume there will be many dalits who would be better in character and more noble than these insecure Brahmans who are full of complexes and insecurities. This topic would have been very informative without these trolls

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

Everybody this is an important thread ..please don't hurl mud at each other and get bogged down and get the thread locked down ...

I am Bengali hailing from Burdwan...This is supposed to be the *eastern most travel destination* of *Jain Founder Mahavira*.

The Eastern most place traveled by the* Buddha *is *RajMahal *in Jharkhand and really no that far from the Bangladesh Border


Now coming down to my caste/clan/tribe , it is Aguri OR Ugra Kshatriyas OR roughly translated in Aggressive Kshatriyas ....Where I come from may OR may not have been part of one of the 16 Mahajanapadas or republics in 500 BC....I think Burdwan,Birbhum,Nadia and Murshidabad districts were under the Anga Kingdom of 500 BC (the rough point from which the second Urbanization of India starts)

My caste was supposed to come under OBC, but was stopped by prominent politician from our caste Jadhav Panja (*Jadabendra Panja*), who argued that we should be considered high caste...By the way all the males originating from *Jadabendra Panja's *Lineage have *green eyes* even till now


*Pranoy Roy* of NDTV is an Aguri..though his mother is White European...Everybody in the family were encouraged to learn English and we were put through English Medium school bceause of a sense of pride when Pranoy Roy used to host "The World This Week"

Famous author *Arundhati Roy* (yes that Arundhati) being another Aguri
*Shakti Samanta* the famous film director who basically launched Rajesh Khanna and Sharmila Tagore

*Ajit Kumar Panja ----Late *Union minister of Coal and theatre actor




Now a bit about my clan from wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aguri_(caste)


*Aguri (caste)*

*Aguri*, also known as *Ugra Kshatriya*, is a caste or community of Hindus found in the districts of Bardhaman, Birbhum, Hooghlyand Bankura in the state of West Bengal in India.[1] Aguris are considered as a middle-caste group and constitute "more prosperous owner-peasants" among the peasant communities of Bengal.[2][3][4]



Aguris are a cultivating and trading caste. According to Santosh Kumar Kundu, they were brought by the ruler of Burdwan from Agra to West Bengal to fight against the British colonists.[1] William Benjamin Oldham, a British civil servant and ethnographer who wrote _Some Historical and Ethnical Aspects of Burdwan District_ (1891), said that they originated from marriage alliances between the Sadgop rulers of Gopbhum and the Khatri rulers of Burdwan. He based this on the Aguri's own account but McLane believes that Oldham was misled by the Aguri. Citing a 1589 work by Mukundaram. McLane says that the Aguri were present "almost certainly" before the arrival of the Khatris in Burdwan.[5]

_Manu_, a Hindu religious text, says Ugra (meaning _aggressive_) was born to a Shudra girl by a Kshatriya father. This mixed origin meant that the community was considered to have an ambivalent position in the Hindu varna system, although by the 1960s they were claiming to be pure Kshatriya.[6]



Photo to locate the Anga Kingdom

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## Joe Shearer

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Joe i have used word " Dalit" intentionally for this so called Brahman Brahmarshi who is here to give certificate of approval to others . Dalit should not be a offensive word for these so called brahmanz who invented this vile concept of untouchability and have been oppressing their own kind in the name of caste. Its your character which define you so i assume there will be many dalits who would be better in character and more noble than these insecure Brahmans who are full of complexes and insecurities. This topic would have been very informative without these trolls



In general principle, I agree with you, but I would still be ginger about using the word as a descriptor. It might be taken as an insult, by those who denigrate Dalits. If you called me Dalit, I wouldn't care; I am a sat-shudra according to Baudhayan in any case.

I really wish you hadn't used that particular put-down. 

My frankness is due to my sense that I am discussing this with a peer, with an educated and sensitive person; I would not have said so to a green bhakt.

In a more positive vein. The marked portion of your reply made me burst out laughing, because that is the precise definition of caste; anyone who behaves like a Brahmin, including one who was born to Dalit parents, is a Brahmin; anyone who was born to Brahmin parents and behaves like something else (there is no caste known as Dalit) is that something else. For something else, you can substitute the rather formal and unrealistic Kshatriya or Vaisya.

Bang on.

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

@Joe Shearer Are there any original Kshatriya caste left that can trace their lineage to 500 BC or so? I am not talking of Rajputs,Jatts,Gujjars who are of Indo-Scythian, Pahlava Indo-Parthian, and Huna in origin (at least in part)?

are there any original Kshtariya clan still left in UP,Bihar from the Mahajanapda era?


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## Joe Shearer

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> @Joe Shearer Are there any original Kshatriya caste left that can trace their lineage to 500 BC or so? I am not talking of Rajputs,Jatts,Gujjars who are of Indo-Scythian, Pahlava Indo-Parthian, and Huna in origin (at least in part)?
> 
> are there any original Kshtariya clan still left in UP,Bihar from the Mahajanapda era?



Not one that can be authenticated. Genealogies exist, that claim that various Rajput clans are of Paurava/Kaurava descent. The most polite way to react is to ignore these claims.

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

Joe Shearer said:


> Not one that can be authenticated. Genealogies exist, that claim that various Rajput clans are of Paurava/Kaurava descent. The most polite way to react is to ignore these claims.




So it seems the most sensible way to see Hindu society as Brahmins and Non-Brahmins along with the large mysterious shadow of Rajputs looming in the background? and various groups being given arbitrary designations (Kshatriya,Martial Race) as per the designs and convenience of the ruling elite?

and may be even Pakistani PDF ers may find this of interest too:

The White Hun invasions of India seems to have had much more catastrophic effect than any subsequent Islamic Turkic/Timurid/Pashtun invasion.....There remains no other proper Kshatriya caste from Attock to Cuttack who can trace their history reliably beyond 5th century invasions...and they also seem agglomerate under the catch-all phrase of Rajputs......I think the last of Indo-european nomads just poured into the subcontinent as Central Asia became the territory of the Turkics


This is an interesting line from a fun website called the Listverse that I read earlier this year. It seems even in 21st century, Westerners have more of an interest in reconstructing authentic Indian history than Indian themselves

"
_*In the mid-fifth century, Central Asian warriors known as the “White Huns” descended upon the Indian subcontinent. Until the arrival of Muslim conquerors in the 12th century, these Huns became the ruling class of Pakistan and Northern India. The foreign conquerors were absorbed into Hindu culture. However, the Hun invasions broke the local chain of historical tradition. Some sources go so far as to say, “No authentic family or class traditions go back beyond the Huns.*_”

https://listverse.com/2017/02/27/10-incredible-mysteries-of-the-huns/


by the way What about the Khatris? Can they be counted as pre-Huna Kshatriyas ? or they are another group of pretenders?


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Joe Shearer said:


> In general principle, I agree with you, but I would still be ginger about using the word as a descriptor.* It might be taken as an insult, by those who denigrate Dalits.* If you called me Dalit, I wouldn't care; I am a sat-shudra according to Baudhayan in any case.
> 
> I really wish you hadn't used that particular put-down.
> 
> My frankness is due to my sense that I am discussing this with a peer, with an educated and sensitive person; I would not have said so to a green bhakt.
> 
> In a more positive vein. The marked portion of your reply made me burst out laughing, because that is the precise definition of caste; anyone who behaves like a Brahmin, including one who was born to Dalit parents, is a Brahmin; anyone who was born to Brahmin parents and behaves like something else (there is no caste known as Dalit) is that something else. For something else, you can substitute the rather formal and unrealistic Kshatriya or Vaisya.
> 
> Bang on.


You read this bold part. Is not this ok to insult those who are insulting or degrading others? They should have taste of their own medicine . I am not someone who is obsessed with caste/clan/tribe which are least important or relevant to me in modern world but i love to read about history and past incidents/kingdoms of our region just to satisfy my own curiosity etc


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## Joe Shearer

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You read this bold part. Is not this ok to insult those who are insulting or degrading others? They should have taste of their own medicine . I am not someone who is obsessed with caste/clan/tribe which are least important or relevant to me in modern world but i love to read about history and past incidents/kingdoms of our region just to satisfy my own curiosity etc



I have to concede your point reluctantly. You are right.

@Juggernaut_is_here 

The question of the Khatri puzzles me. I just don't know what to make of them. Need to study this longer.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> So it seems the most sensible way to see Hindu society as Brahmins and Non-Brahmins along with the large mysterious shadow of Rajputs looming in the background? and various groups being given arbitrary designations (Kshatriya,Martial Race) as per the designs and convenience of the ruling elite?
> 
> and may be even Pakistani PDF ers may find this of interest too:
> 
> The White Hun invasions of India seems to have had much more catastrophic effect than any subsequent Islamic Turkic/Timurid/Pashtun invasion.....There remains no other proper Kshatriya caste from Attock to Cuttack who can trace their history reliably beyond 5th century invasions...and they also seem agglomerate under the catch-all phrase of Rajputs......I think the last of Indo-european nomads just poured into the subcontinent as Central Asia became the territory of the Turkics
> 
> 
> This is an interesting line from a fun website called the Listverse that I read earlier this year. It seems even in 21st century, Westerners have more of an interest in reconstructing authentic Indian history than Indian themselves
> 
> "
> _*In the mid-fifth century, Central Asian warriors known as the “White Huns” descended upon the Indian subcontinent. Until the arrival of Muslim conquerors in the 12th century, these Huns became the ruling class of Pakistan and Northern India. The foreign conquerors were absorbed into Hindu culture. However, the Hun invasions broke the local chain of historical tradition. Some sources go so far as to say, “No authentic family or class traditions go back beyond the Huns.*_”
> 
> https://listverse.com/2017/02/27/10-incredible-mysteries-of-the-huns/
> 
> 
> by the way What about the Khatris? Can they be counted as pre-Huna Kshatriyas ? or they are another group of pretenders?


I don't know how much truth in it but read this perspective

Rajputs, Jats, Gujars, and other tribes/sub-branches of the region are descended from a blend of Central Asian tribes known as Scythians (Sakas), Hephthalites (Hunas), and others mixed with the natives. The Hindu mythological claims of their origin is nothing more than myths. These Central Asian tribes were originally mostly worshippers of the sun, fire, etc. and once they migrated to Indus Valley later many converted to Buddhism . It was much later on that some converted to Shaivism, Sauraism, etc. (or were absorbed into Brahmanism)... followed by most converting to Islam... followed by some converting to Sikhism.


Before the advent of Islam, but after the Aryan migrations, several invasions and mass migrations of the Central Asian tribes named as the Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, Huns and Gujjars took place in the Punjab (and other parts of Pakistan). The last two tribes i.e. the Huns (White Huns/ Epthalites) and Gujjars arrived in the 5th century AD when Hinduism had revived under the Gupta Empire but had not fully succeeded in crushing the influence of Buddhism. As the Gupta Empire collapsed under the impact of Hun invasions, it caused deep consternation among Brahmins in view of their failure to eliminate Buddhism while the Gupta power supporting them in this task had disappeared. Therefore, they began to make overtures to the new arrivals who were valiant, vigorous and warlike. They were offered the rank of Kshatryas in the Hindu fold, a position only next to that of the Brahmins and confers the responsiblity of rulership.

In the course of time the leading groups of Huns were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatryas while Jats, who were the descendants of the remaining groups of Huns, occupied a lower strata of society. But the present day Jats and Rajputs also include the descendants of the previous invaders..... the Sakas and the Kushans and even of earlier races. Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, White Huns, and Gujjars were ethnically Iranian. In fact, Huns (White Huns/Hepthalites) are also called Iranian Huns to differentiate them from the other Mongoloid Huns who invaded Europe. The word Gujjar is derived from Khazar and Jat from Gatae who inhabited around the Caspian Sea and migrated towards northwest South Asia.

Todd assigns Scythian origin to the Rajputs. Scythians came to be known as Sakas in South Asia, and were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatriyas. Sakas, Yavannas (Greco-Bactrians), Pallavas (Parthians) ultimately became Kshatriyas. The Huns are known to have been regarded as one of the 36 clans of Rajputs. However, except for the Huns, all others had mostly adopted Buddhism mixed with their religions (like Saka sun-worship).

Almost 60% of the population of the Punjab comprises of Rajputs and Jats and the various branches of their race such as Awans, Khokhars, Ghakkars, Khattars, Janjuas, Arains, Gujjars, etc. though the Awans, Khokhars and Khattars claim common ancestry from Qutb Shah who is said to have come from Ghazni with Mahmud Ghaznavi, scholars hold the view that they were most probably converted by Qutb Shah during Mahmud Ghaznavi's reign and were not his descendents. This tendancy of claiming foreign origin by some of the local tribes is not uncommon. Even admittedly Rajput tribes of famous ancestry such as the Khokhar, have begun to follow the example of claiming connection with the Mughal conquerors of India or the Qureshi cousins of the Prophet.

A branch of the Wattu Rajputs of the Sutlej by an affection of peculiar sanctity, have in the course of a few generations become Bodeas and now deny their Rajput and claim Qureshi origin. There is a Kharral family lately settled in Bahawalpur who have begun to affect peculiar holiness and to marry only with each other and their next step will certainly be to claim Arab descent.

However, a significant number of Punjabi tribes are indeed descended from Afghan, Turkic, Arab, Mughal and Iranian Muslim invaders/migrants. Even those who are of local origins but claim foreign Muslim ancestory, might have partial ancestory derived from them. But all in all, the foreign Muslim ancestory element among Punjabis does not exceed more than 20% of their population.

According to Thomson, Awans are a Jat race and were converted to Islam by Mahmud Ghaznavi. In several districts of the Punjab they are registered as Jats. Mr. Thomson in his Jehlum Settlement report adduces many strong reasons in support of his conclusion that the Awans are a Jat race who came from passes west of D.I.Khan. Griffin also agrees to the local Muslim origin of Awans while Cunningham holds that Janjuas and Awans are descended from Anu and calls them Anwan. Another scholar Wilson is of the view that Awans are of indigenous Hindu/Buddhist/Pagan/Animist origin. In the genealogical tree of the Nawabs of Kalabagh, who are regarded heads of the Awans, there are found several native names such as Rai, Harkaran, etc.

As regards Gujjars, the well known scholar Cunningham thinks that they are descended from Scythian (Saka) and Yue-Chi (Kushan) tribes who invaded Pakistan in the first century BC and in the first century AD respectively. Other scholars believe that they are descended from a Central Asian Turkic people called Kazars. Since the tribe migrated from Caspian Sea which is called Bahr-e-Khizar it was named Khizar, Guzar, Gurjar, Gurjara or Gujjar. The name Hazara was given to the district by these Guzara tribes. The name Gujjar, according to another version, is derived from the words 'Gau' and 'Char' meaning cattle grazers.

Though Arains claim Iranian descent, they too are generally considered of Rajput origin, but Rajputs having Scythian-Kushan-Hun origins are indeed related to Iranians. According to the Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains of sahiwal District themselves pointed out that they are Surajbansi Rajputs originally settled around Delhi. Arains of Ghaggar Valley say that they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan. Mr. Pursr writes that they are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. the Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran who was related to him.

Similarly, Ranghars and Meos are described to be of Rajput/Jat origin who were converted to Islam during the time of Qutbuddin Aibak. Kahutas are a mixed Mughal and Rajput tribe. Khattars are related to Awans and Jats.

Khokhars are sometimes returned as Jats and sometimes as Rajputs. Col. Davis notes that many of the social customs of the Khokhars of Shahpur denote Hindu origin. Eastern Punjab Khokhars themselves claim Jat-Rajput origin. Only some of the West Punjab Khokhars claim Arab origin.

Gen. Cunningham identifies the Ghakkars with Gangaridae of Dionysius and holds them to be descendents of Yueti or Tokhari Scythians (sakas).

In Pakistan, Rajput and Jat tribes are so mixed up that it is difficult to distinguish one from the other at many places and in several cases. Some of the Rajput tribes are probably of Jat origin and vice versa. In southwest Punjab the name Jat includes a most miscellaneous congries of tribes of all sorts. Its significance tends to be occupational: to denote a body of cultivators or agriculturists. Even tribes which bear well-known Rajput names are often classified as Jats in the Punjab. Anyway, the origin of both is the same as stated earlier.

Gen. Cunningham and Maj. Todd agree in considering the Jats of Indo-Scythian stock. Maj. Todd classifies Jats as one of the great Rajput tribes. They belong to one and thesame stock.... they have been, for many centuries, so blended and so intermingled into one people that it is practically impossible to distinguish them as separate wholes. At present distinction is social rather ethnic. The same tribe Rajput in one district and Jat in another according to the position in local tribes... During census many of the Jats entered, as third heading, the name of the Rajput tribe from which they claim to have sprung.

The Jats in ancient times inhabited the whole valley of the Indus down to Sind.... They now form a most numerous as well as the most important section of the agricultural population of Punjab.

Beyond the Punjab, Jats are chiefly found in Sind where they form mass of the population.

The main (Muslim) Rajput tribes of the Punjab are: Bhatti, Punwar, Chauhan, Minhas, Tiwana, Noon, Chib, Gheba, Jodhra, Janjua, Sial and Wattu etc. While the important (Muslim) Jat tribes are: Bajwa, Chatta, Cheema, Randhawa, Ghammon, Buta, Kahlon, Gil, Sehota, Taror, Waraich, Summa, Wahla, Bhutta, Malhi, Sukhera, Alpials, Dahas, Langah, Ranghar, Meo, Awan, Khokhar, Ghakkar, etc. But some of these Rajput tribes are classified are Jats and vice versa.

Punjab has had its periods of prosperity and poverty in a regular cycle. Before the arrival of Muslims, Punjab along with the other regions/provinces of present day Pakistan was leading a separate existance from that of India, and kingdoms based in its territories or in the NWFP often ruled over most of northern India. Kushan, Saka, Bactrian and Hun Kingdoms with their capitals at Peshawar, Taxila and Sialkot respectively, ruled over large parts of northern India for centuries.

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

@Proudpakistaniguy Brilliant write up..confirms What I suspected

20% of the Paternal genes in Punjab descend from Islamic invasions 
may be around 10-20% from the Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasions 

and around 16% from the original Aryan invasion

-------The mix of Central Asian genes in Indo-Aryan Pak Punjab would be around 46-56%----------------------


while regarding India upper caste Hindu in North-West 

10% from Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasion 
16% from original Aryan invasion
----The Mix of Central Asian genes in North Western Republic of India would be around 26%---------------------


This for you as well as @Joe Shearer as to how one tribe pushes the other out of central Asia and all of them follow like a train to the subcontinent

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## Joe Shearer

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I don't know how much truth in it but read this perspective
> 
> Rajputs, Jats, Gujars, and other tribes/sub-branches of the region are descended from a blend of Central Asian tribes known as Scythians (Sakas), Hephthalites (Hunas), and others mixed with the natives. The Hindu mythological claims of their origin is nothing more than myths. These Central Asian tribes were originally mostly worshippers of the sun, fire, etc. and once they migrated to Indus Valley later many converted to Buddhism . It was much later on that some converted to Shaivism, Sauraism, etc. (or were absorbed into Brahmanism)... followed by most converting to Islam... followed by some converting to Sikhism.
> 
> 
> Before the advent of Islam, but after the Aryan migrations, several invasions and mass migrations of the Central Asian tribes named as the Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, Huns and Gujjars took place in the Punjab (and other parts of Pakistan). The last two tribes i.e. the Huns (White Huns/ Epthalites) and Gujjars arrived in the 5th century AD when Hinduism had revived under the Gupta Empire but had not fully succeeded in crushing the influence of Buddhism. As the Gupta Empire collapsed under the impact of Hun invasions, it caused deep consternation among Brahmins in view of their failure to eliminate Buddhism while the Gupta power supporting them in this task had disappeared. Therefore, they began to make overtures to the new arrivals who were valiant, vigorous and warlike. They were offered the rank of Kshatryas in the Hindu fold, a position only next to that of the Brahmins and confers the responsiblity of rulership.
> 
> In the course of time the leading groups of Huns were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatryas while Jats, who were the descendants of the remaining groups of Huns, occupied a lower strata of society. But the present day Jats and Rajputs also include the descendants of the previous invaders..... the Sakas and the Kushans and even of earlier races. Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, White Huns, and Gujjars were ethnically Iranian. In fact, Huns (White Huns/Hepthalites) are also called Iranian Huns to differentiate them from the other Mongoloid Huns who invaded Europe. The word Gujjar is derived from Khazar and Jat from Gatae who inhabited around the Caspian Sea and migrated towards northwest South Asia.
> 
> Todd assigns Scythian origin to the Rajputs. Scythians came to be known as Sakas in South Asia, and were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatriyas. Sakas, Yavannas (Greco-Bactrians), Pallavas (Parthians) ultimately became Kshatriyas. The Huns are known to have been regarded as one of the 36 clans of Rajputs. However, except for the Huns, all others had mostly adopted Buddhism mixed with their religions (like Saka sun-worship).
> 
> Almost 60% of the population of the Punjab comprises of Rajputs and Jats and the various branches of their race such as Awans, Khokhars, Ghakkars, Khattars, Janjuas, Arains, Gujjars, etc. though the Awans, Khokhars and Khattars claim common ancestry from Qutb Shah who is said to have come from Ghazni with Mahmud Ghaznavi, scholars hold the view that they were most probably converted by Qutb Shah during Mahmud Ghaznavi's reign and were not his descendents. This tendancy of claiming foreign origin by some of the local tribes is not uncommon. Even admittedly Rajput tribes of famous ancestry such as the Khokhar, have begun to follow the example of claiming connection with the Mughal conquerors of India or the Qureshi cousins of the Prophet.
> 
> A branch of the Wattu Rajputs of the Sutlej by an affection of peculiar sanctity, have in the course of a few generations become Bodeas and now deny their Rajput and claim Qureshi origin. There is a Kharral family lately settled in Bahawalpur who have begun to affect peculiar holiness and to marry only with each other and their next step will certainly be to claim Arab descent.
> 
> However, a significant number of Punjabi tribes are indeed descended from Afghan, Turkic, Arab, Mughal and Iranian Muslim invaders/migrants. Even those who are of local origins but claim foreign Muslim ancestory, might have partial ancestory derived from them. But all in all, the foreign Muslim ancestory element among Punjabis does not exceed more than 20% of their population.
> 
> According to Thomson, Awans are a Jat race and were converted to Islam by Mahmud Ghaznavi. In several districts of the Punjab they are registered as Jats. Mr. Thomson in his Jehlum Settlement report adduces many strong reasons in support of his conclusion that the Awans are a Jat race who came from passes west of D.I.Khan. Griffin also agrees to the local Muslim origin of Awans while Cunningham holds that Janjuas and Awans are descended from Anu and calls them Anwan. Another scholar Wilson is of the view that Awans are of indigenous Hindu/Buddhist/Pagan/Animist origin. In the genealogical tree of the Nawabs of Kalabagh, who are regarded heads of the Awans, there are found several native names such as Rai, Harkaran, etc.
> 
> As regards Gujjars, the well known scholar Cunningham thinks that they are descended from Scythian (Saka) and Yue-Chi (Kushan) tribes who invaded Pakistan in the first century BC and in the first century AD respectively. Other scholars believe that they are descended from a Central Asian Turkic people called Kazars. Since the tribe migrated from Caspian Sea which is called Bahr-e-Khizar it was named Khizar, Guzar, Gurjar, Gurjara or Gujjar. The name Hazara was given to the district by these Guzara tribes. The name Gujjar, according to another version, is derived from the words 'Gau' and 'Char' meaning cattle grazers.
> 
> Though Arains claim Iranian descent, they too are generally considered of Rajput origin, but Rajputs having Scythian-Kushan-Hun origins are indeed related to Iranians. According to the Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains of sahiwal District themselves pointed out that they are Surajbansi Rajputs originally settled around Delhi. Arains of Ghaggar Valley say that they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan. Mr. Pursr writes that they are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. the Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran who was related to him.
> 
> Similarly, Ranghars and Meos are described to be of Rajput/Jat origin who were converted to Islam during the time of Qutbuddin Aibak. Kahutas are a mixed Mughal and Rajput tribe. Khattars are related to Awans and Jats.
> 
> Khokhars are sometimes returned as Jats and sometimes as Rajputs. Col. Davis notes that many of the social customs of the Khokhars of Shahpur denote Hindu origin. Eastern Punjab Khokhars themselves claim Jat-Rajput origin. Only some of the West Punjab Khokhars claim Arab origin.
> 
> Gen. Cunningham identifies the Ghakkars with Gangaridae of Dionysius and holds them to be descendents of Yueti or Tokhari Scythians (sakas).
> 
> In Pakistan, Rajput and Jat tribes are so mixed up that it is difficult to distinguish one from the other at many places and in several cases. Some of the Rajput tribes are probably of Jat origin and vice versa. In southwest Punjab the name Jat includes a most miscellaneous congries of tribes of all sorts. Its significance tends to be occupational: to denote a body of cultivators or agriculturists. Even tribes which bear well-known Rajput names are often classified as Jats in the Punjab. Anyway, the origin of both is the same as stated earlier.
> 
> Gen. Cunningham and Maj. Todd agree in considering the Jats of Indo-Scythian stock. Maj. Todd classifies Jats as one of the great Rajput tribes. They belong to one and thesame stock.... they have been, for many centuries, so blended and so intermingled into one people that it is practically impossible to distinguish them as separate wholes. At present distinction is social rather ethnic. The same tribe Rajput in one district and Jat in another according to the position in local tribes... During census many of the Jats entered, as third heading, the name of the Rajput tribe from which they claim to have sprung.
> 
> The Jats in ancient times inhabited the whole valley of the Indus down to Sind.... They now form a most numerous as well as the most important section of the agricultural population of Punjab.
> 
> Beyond the Punjab, Jats are chiefly found in Sind where they form mass of the population.
> 
> The main (Muslim) Rajput tribes of the Punjab are: Bhatti, Punwar, Chauhan, Minhas, Tiwana, Noon, Chib, Gheba, Jodhra, Janjua, Sial and Wattu etc. While the important (Muslim) Jat tribes are: Bajwa, Chatta, Cheema, Randhawa, Ghammon, Buta, Kahlon, Gil, Sehota, Taror, Waraich, Summa, Wahla, Bhutta, Malhi, Sukhera, Alpials, Dahas, Langah, Ranghar, Meo, Awan, Khokhar, Ghakkar, etc. But some of these Rajput tribes are classified are Jats and vice versa.
> 
> Punjab has had its periods of prosperity and poverty in a regular cycle. Before the arrival of Muslims, Punjab along with the other regions/provinces of present day Pakistan was leading a separate existance from that of India, and kingdoms based in its territories or in the NWFP often ruled over most of northern India. Kushan, Saka, Bactrian and Hun Kingdoms with their capitals at Peshawar, Taxila and Sialkot respectively, ruled over large parts of northern India for centuries.



Brilliant note, but I cannot see much merit in your last paragraph. It is self-contradictory.

You can't have your cake, and eat it too.



Juggernaut_is_here said:


> @Proudpakistaniguy Brilliant write up..confirms What I suspected
> 
> 20% of the Paternal genes in Punjab descend from Islamic invasions
> may be around 10-20% from the Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasions
> 
> and around 16% from the original Aryan invasion
> 
> -------The mix of Central Asian genes in Indo-Aryan Pak Punjab would be around 46-56%----------------------
> 
> 
> while regarding India upper caste Hindu in North-West
> 
> 10% from Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasion
> 16% from original Aryan invasion
> ----The Mix of Central Asian genes in North Western Republic of India would be around 26%---------------------
> 
> 
> This for you as well as @Joe Shearer as to how one tribe pushes the other out of central Asia and all of them follow like a train to the subcontinent



Disappointing; leaves you perched on the edge of your chair.

There was little about the border marches of India, which were tantalisingly off screen. 

Also I disagree with the depiction before the Kushan Empire.

@Proudpakistaniguy
@Juggernaut_is_here

Thank you both for the delightful exchange. I enjoyed reading them, and learning from them. I have to start my day, starting with deciding what to eat and cooking, but hope to return and see some more good things.

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

okay this is my final post on this thread..donot want to keep you guys away from your real life 

@Joe Shearer Sir You can compliment it with this video..I have time stamped it from the invasion of the Graeco-Bactrians ....and you can enjoy it till the rise of Harshavardhana..all total a solid 2:30 minutes of entertainment and here they also show tribes streaming in from Central Asia, though Central Asia proper is cut off from this video just as subcontinent proper was cut off from the previous video

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## qamar1990

lastofthepatriots said:


> Arain, the true Arain are the best people in the entire region.

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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


>



Cow milkers wouldn't undastand.


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## qamar1990

lastofthepatriots said:


> Cow milkers wouldn't undastand.


veggie farmers do tho eh??
would u like an onion my friend??

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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


> veggie farmers do tho eh??
> would u like an onion my friend??



It's quite the opposite milkman. We provide the onions to you.


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## qamar1990

lastofthepatriots said:


> It's quite the opposite milkman. We provide the onions to you.


yeah you guys are the salad tossers for sure.

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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


> yeah you guys are the salad tossers for sure.



You sound upset.


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## Pakistani E

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You sound dalit to me . Every dalit pretend to be brahmin on internet but Mr dalit you should not talk about stuffs which you dont know. Now let me educate you about history of Janjua Rajputs
> 
> 
> The Janjua Rajputs are a branch of the ancient Pandava Dynasty. The Pandavas were a Chandravanshi Kuru branch of the ancient Vedic Aryans of India descending primarily from the legendary vedic King Pururava (also known as Puru) and lived in about the 14th century BC. "General Alexander Cunningham of India concluded the Janjua to be of Aryan origin" (Panjab Castes, Sir Denzil Ibbetson, Delhi 2002, p99). Arjuna, the famous Pandava Kshatriya hero of the Mahabharata epic is known as the most prominent father of this dynasty. Prince Arjun was the first cousin of the famed Hindu prince Lord Krishna and married Krishna's sister, Subhadra, to extend his dynasty. "It was Prince Arjun who carried out Krishna's funeral rites" (Arjuna in the Mahabhrata by Ruth Cecily Katz, University of South Carolina, 1989, back matter).
> 
> The apical ancestor of the Janjuas - Maharaja Janamejaya (until c. 1000 BC), King of Hastinapur [the capital of which was Indraprasta (modern day Delhi)] who was the great grandson of Arjuna Pandava (through his father Parikshit, son of Abhimanyu son of Arjuna). Maharaja Janamejaya was also known as the "Serpent Killer" after the famous mass revenge killing of all snakes and the "Nagas" people - people possibly of Tibetan origin who were rulers of a nearby state responsible for the assassination of his father Parikshit. His descendants were also known historically as the Pandavas and the Pauravas.
> 
> India's other name Bharat or Bharat-Varsh is actually named after a forefather of the Pandava dynasty, Bharat (until c. 1300BC). Bharat-Varsh means "Kingdom of Bharat" ("Recruiting, Drafting, and Enlisting (Military and Society, 1)"Peter Karsten, 1998, USA, p119). The Mahabharata epic is a narration which records a war between Bharat's later descendants the Pandavas and their cousins the Kauravas for the throne of Hastinapur. This epic is also believed to be the world's longest poem and Janamejaya was responsible for the retelling of it. The Pandavas were also known as Pauravas after another prominent ancestor Puru.
> 
> The Pauravas ruled Kekaya which was widely known as the Kingdom of the Puru/Pauravas Clan and it was Rai Por or more popularly known in the west as King Porus who fought Alexander the Great in 326 BC (in what is now Jhelum, Pakistan) in the famed Battle of the Hydaspes. It is said: “Unlike Darius, Porus fought aboard his elephant until the end..In victory Alexander treated Porus with the dignity reserved for a great warrior reinstating him a vassal king and sealing the bond of friendship” (The Horse in the Ancient World by Ann Hyland 2002 Sutton Publ.,p161). According to Arian, Alexander is said to have asked King Porus "How would you like me to treat you?" to which Porus famously replied "As a Raja (king)". The answer touched Alexander, who in return allowed the Raja of the Pauravas to retain his Kingdom (Alexander the Great - Nick McCarty, Carlton Books, 2004, p111). The "List of Indian monarchs" gives an account of the period of rule of the Bharata-Puru-Pandava-Pauravas-Janjua Shahi phase from approx 1600BC to 1026AD.
> 
> It must also be noted here that although the Janjuas are essentially Pandavas, the famous Jarral Rajput, a powerful Rajput dynasty who ruled Rajaur for well over 600 years were also Pandavas by origin through Nanak Rao, the brother of "Maharaja of the Kurus" Janamejaya. A known scion of the Pandava dynasty through Janamejaya became a very well known and recognised warrior king in his time. His name was Rai Janjua Paal. He was famous for his conquests and warlike temperament and was believed to be the last emperor of Hastinapur. He named his branch as Janjua henceforth and this name has remained in his dynasty. From about 964AD, the Janjua chief Parambhattaraka Maharajadhiraja Paramesvara Sri Jayapaladeva (Epithets known from the Bari Kot inscriptions) succeeded the Brahmin Hindu Shahi Emperor Bhimdev. The Janjua Shahiya emperors now ruled from Ghandar (Kandahar of Afghanistan) to the whole of Punjab in what was known as the second phase of the Hindu Shahiya or the Janjua Shahi Dynasty.
> 
> Famed ethnologists and Indo researchers Sir Alexander Cunningham (Coins of Medieval India Reprint. Varanasi:1967 p56,p62), Elliot and Dowson (The History of India as told by it's own historians [Indian repr.1962].vol.i, p.22,425-26) and Sachau (Alberuni's India London 1914, vol.ii, p393-94) led research into the origins of the Pala Hindu Shahiya, the second dynasty that succeeded the initial Brahmin Dev Shahiyas. Through independent research they concluded that the origins of Emperor Jayapala Shah was in fact in the Janjua Rajput. In 1973's Al-Biruni International Congress in Pakistan, Dr Hussain Khan presented a paper in called "An Interpretation of Al-Biruni's Account of the Hindu Shahiyas of Kabul" which also confirmed the same findings. Finally, the Janjuas own genealogy records the names of the Janjua Shahi Jayapala as well as the continued descendants of his House (Gazetteer of the Jhelum District, Lahore 1904, p93).
> 
> Jayapala was challenged by the armies of Sabuktigin and his son Sultan Mahmud towards the end of his reign as emperor. According to the Minháj ad-Dīn in his chronicle Tabaqát-i Násiri (Tabaqát-i Násiri, H. G. Raverty's trans., Vol.1, p.82), writes a testament to the political and powerful stature of Emperor Jayapala Shah, "Jayapála, who is the greatest of all the ráis (kings) of Hind..." Upon being captured after a fierce battle with Sultan Mahmud, Jayapala was ransomed and upon his release, "he ordered the construction of a funeral pyre. Mounting and setting it alight, he nobly perished in the flames" (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sáhis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi Renaissance publishing house. p147). Misra wrote:"Jaypala was perhaps the last Indian ruler to show such spirit of aggression, so sadly lacking in later Rajput kings" (R.G.Misra, Indian Resistance to Early Muslim Invaders Up to 1206 AD, Anu Books, repr.1992).
> 
> Jayapala's son, prince Anandapala who ascended the throne (in about March/April 1002AD) already proved an able warrior and General in leading many battles prior to his ascension. According to Adáb al-Harb (p.307-10) in about 990, "the arrogant but ambitious Raja of Lahore Bharat, having put his father in confinement, marched on the country of Jayapála with the intention of conquering the districts of Nandana, Jailum and Tákeshar." Jayapala instructed prince Anandapala to repel the opportunist Raja Bharat. Anandapala defeated Bharat and took him prisoner in the battle of Takeshar and marched on Lahore and captured the city and extended his father's kingdom yet further. During Anandpala's reign many losses were incurred on his kingdom by the Ghaznavids. During the battle of Chach between Sultan Mahmud and Anandapala, it is stated that "a body of 30,000 Gakhars fought alongside as soldiers for the Shahi Emperor and incurred huge losses for the Ghaznavids" (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sahis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi 1988,p152). It is also mentioned in the same text that "the Gakhars (or Khokhars) formed a very significant force in the armies of the Sáhis". Despite the heavy losses of the enemy, he eventually lost the battle and suffered much financial and territorial loss. This was Anandapala's last stand against Sultan Mahmud. Anandpala eventually signed a treaty with the Ghaznavid empire in 1010AD and shortly a year later died a peaceful death. R.C Majumdar (D.V. Potdar Commemoration Volume, Poona 1950, p.351) compared him ironically to his dynasty's ancient famous ancestor "Porus, who bravely opposed Alexander but later submitted and helped in subduing other Indian rulers." And Tahqíq Má li'l-Hind (p 351) finally revered Anandapala in his legacy as noble and courageous.
> 
> Tirlochanpála, the son of Anandapala, ascended the throne in about 1011AD. Inheriting a reduced kingdom, he immediately set about expanding his kingdom into the Siwalik Hills, the region of the Rai of Sharwa. His kingdom now extended from the River Indus to the upper Ganges valley. According to Al-Biruni, Tirlochanpála "was well inclined towards the Muslims" and was honourable in his loyalty to his father's peace treaty to the Ghaznavids. He later rebelled against Sultan Mahmud and was eventually assassinated by some of his own mutinous troops in 1021-22AD, an assassination which was believed to have been instigated by the Rai of Sharwa who became his arch-enemy due to Tirlochanpala's expansion into the Siwalik ranges (The Last 2 Dynasties of the Sahis Prof. Abdur Rehman, Delhi 1988,p166). Trilochanpala was romanticised in Punjabi folklore as the Last Punjabi ruler of Punjab.
> 
> Bhímapála, son of Tirlochanpala, succeeded his father in 1021-22AD. He was referred to by Utbí (vil.ii, p.151) as "Bhīm, the Fearless" due to his courage and valour. Considering his kingdom was at its lowest point, possibly only to the control of Nandana, he admirably earned the title of fearless from his enemy's own chronicle writer. He is known to have led the battle of Nandana personally and seriously wounding the Commander of the Ghaznavid army Muhammad bin Ibrahim at-Tāī. He ruled only five years after his father before meeting his death in 1026AD. Bhimpala's remaining descendants, Rudrapal and his brothers Diddápála and Anangapāla had settled in Kashmir and played a major role in the court of Kashmirian king Ananta (1028-63AD). According to the Rājtarahginī (vii, p.145), Rudrapal proved himself extravagant in personal valour by crushing the rebels of the king, as commander in chief of the Kashmiri royal army. Al-Biruni, despite living under Sultan Mahmud's grace, praises the house of Jayapala: “ We must say that in all their grandeur, they never slackened in the ardent desire of doing that which is good and right, that they were men of noble sentiment and noble bearing ”. In Kalhana in Rājtarahginī, writes of the Janjua Shahis: “Where is the Shahi dynasty with its ministers, its kings, and its great grandeur? ... The very name of the splendor of Shahi kings has vanished. What is not seen in dream, what even our imagination cannot conceive, that dynasty accomplished with ease ”.
> 
> Raja Dhrupet Dev Janjua ruled Mathura state in about 1150AD. Dhrupet Dev was also the ruler of the Mandu fort of the Siwalik hills. He was well known for being a Pandava descendant through Prince Arjun's great grandson Maharaja Janamejaya. Raja Dhrupet's rule of Mathura ended in 1195AD when Qutb-ud-din Aybak, the general of the Ghorid army, attacked Mathura and exiled the ruling royal family. According to Mohyal historians (Gulshan-e-Mohyali) Raja Dhrupet's younger brother Raja Shripat Dev, accompanied the exile back to the Siwalik hills. Shripat Dev later, "established his dominion at Katasraj (old name Namaksar) in Tehsil Pind Dadan Khan, Distt. Jhelum." The Mohyal commanders in chief of the Janjua army at this point were Rai Tirlok Nath Bali and Bam Dev Bhimwal (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose, 1990, p134). Regarding the Janjuas' descent from the Pandavas dynasty, the Bali and Bhimwal generals of Raja Dhrupet Dev of Mathura, recorded that the Janjua Raja Dhrupet Dev was the descendant of Emperor Janamejaya. "This reference was recorded in 1195AD" (Culture and Political History of Kashmir by Prithivi Nath Kaul Bamzai, MD Publ. Ltd., 1994, p637, p669, p670). Sir Lepel H Griffin K.C.S.I. had also recorded in the early 1900s "the Janjuas were Pandavas in origin" (Punjab Chiefs, L.H.Griffin, 1909 Lahore, p213).
> 
> Raja Dhrupet Dev was the father of a famous Janjua Chief Raja Ajmal Dev Janjua who embraced Islam in the 12th century and rose to become the next rising force of the Janjua Rajput. He followed the Islamic tradition of changing his name after conversion but was better known as Raja Mal Khan. He was among the first Muslim Rajputs recorded in Indian history. Raja Mal's conversion took place whilst he was in his teens and he inclined towards Islamic philosophy of the Sufis brought by the Dervishes of the Chistiya order, before the armies of Shahabudin Ghauri entered into the Indian Potohar Plateau. Raja Mal Khan migrated from Mandu fort in the Siwalik Hills to the Koh-i-Jud and settled at Rajgarh which he later renamed Mal-Kot (Malot). He re-conquered the Salt Ranges of Punjab to establish the dominion which his forefathers lost almost two centuries earlier to the Ghaznavids (Journal of Central Asia Vol. XIII. No.1, 1990,p.78). [Malot was originally called Shahghar or Rajghar - meaning home of the Shahis/Kings but was later changed to Malot (Mal-Kot) in recognition of its famous King, Raja Mal.]
> 
> The Tarikh-e-Alfi of the Ghorids mentions the rebellious behaviour of Raja Mal Khan towards the Delhi Sultanate. It records that a "Rai Mal" of the mountains between Lahore and Kabul excited a rebellion against them and intercepted communications between Lahore and Ghazni (Chronicles of Early Janjuas Dr Hussain Khan, iUniverse, 2003, p16). There is still today remnants of an ancient fort in Malot, Chakwal which was initially built by the Shahis and later rebuilt by Raja Mal Khan. It is also inscribed that the last Hindu Shahi prince Raja Mal embraced Islam at this place. Raja Mal Khan was also the first ruler to begin the mining of salt in the Salt Ranges of Kallar Kahar and in the Khewra Salt Mines of Punjab which is currently the world's second largest salt mine. Other Janjua descendants include Ranial/Dhamial Rajputs, Tanoli Rajputs (also spelt Tanaulis/ Tanawalis), Pulowal Rajputs, Hindwal Rajputs and Khakha Rajputs who are essentially the descendants of Raja Bhir, Raja Tanoli and Raja Khakha respectively. Raja Bhir, Tanoli, Khakha, Jodh and Kala are all sons of the famous Janjua chief, Raja Mal Khan Janjua. (for further details see Chakri Rajgan - Home )
> 
> The Janjua Rajputs are a prominent tribe of Punjab (both Pakistani and Indian Punjab). They have a history that spans centuries through various notable rulers, tribal chiefs, princes and kings since the time of the Mahabharat to the present age through Chief of Army Staff, Pakistan -General Asif Nawaz Khan Janjua. They were amongst the earliest Rajput converts to Islam and established their own Riyasats (kingdoms) during the 12th century which up until the early 19th century remained in their respective control. Janjuas rebelled against the Delhi Sultanate in the early 13th century and also later aided the Mughal conqueror Babur's route into India with other allied mountain tribes and served in the Mughal army in their conquests of India. Many forts within Punjab are still remnant of their royal past, such as the Kusak fort, Sohava fort, Girjaak fort in Makhiala Jhelum, Malot fort in Chakwal District, Nagi fort, Dalowal fort, Dhandot fort, Kath Saghral and Masral fort, Dhak Janjua fort, Akrand fort and many more. They have played a major part in Punjabi history in their regions through their alliances and rebellions with invaders and other mountainous warrior tribes.



Thanks that was very detailed. Although there are some points I disagree with what I've been told by my elders, it seems to be that everyone in Punjab is either a Jatt or Rajput. I wonder what happened to the previous inhabitants and if there are any clans/tribes that can be classified as indigenous (Pre Rajput/Jatt migration).

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## lastofthepatriots

Sher Shah Awan said:


> Thanks that was very detailed. Although there are some points I disagree with what I've been told by my elders, it seems to be that everyone in Punjab is either a Jatt or Rajput. I wonder what happened to the previous inhabitants and if there are any clans/tribes that can be classified as indigenous (Pre Rajput/Jatt migration).



Arains aren't Rajputs. We look different.

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## Pakistani E

lastofthepatriots said:


> Arains aren't Rajputs. We look different.



I think it's a huge simplification to say everyone is partly Rajput/Jatt/Pre-invasion mix. Neither the Arrains, nor the Awans have ever claimed Jatt or Rajput origin. Most of the sub-clans the Jatland folks use to say Awans are Jatts are sub-branches of affiliated local clans like Khokhars, Chauhan etc who claim kinship with Awans.

It's the same with Arrains, they have never claimed Rajput origin. I don't think any Rajput clan would purposely choose to say they are not Rajputs. They have absolutely nothing to gain from not calling themselves Rajputs.


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## lastofthepatriots

Sher Shah Awan said:


> I think it's a huge simplification to say everyone is partly Rajput/Jatt/Pre-invasion mix. Neither the Arrains, nor the Awans have ever claimed Jatt or Rajput origin. Most of the sub-clans the Jatland folks use to say Awans are Jatts are sub-branches of affiliated local clans like Khokhars etc who claim kinship with Awans.
> 
> It's the same with Arrains, they have never claimed Rajput origin. I don't think any Rajput clan would purposely choose to say they are not Rajputs. They have absolutely nothing to gain from not calling themselves Rajputs.



Awans don't look like jatts to me either.

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## Pakistani E

lastofthepatriots said:


> Awans don't look like jatts to me either.



Awans have no concept of ancestor worship/homage either. Even the British Indian Army classified the Muslim Punjabi Jats separately from Awans.

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## lastofthepatriots

Sher Shah Awan said:


> Awans have no concept of ancestor worship/homage either. Even the British Indian Army classified the Muslim Punjabi Jats separately from Awans.


@friendly_troll96

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## friendly_troll96

lastofthepatriots said:


> @friendly_troll96


shakal se e pagal lagtay hn.

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## Pakistani E

friendly_troll96 said:


> shakal se e pagal lagtay hn.



Lol Look in his eyes and tell me what you see:

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## qamar1990

Sher Shah Awan said:


> Thanks that was very detailed. Although there are some points I disagree with what I've been told by my elders, it seems to be that everyone in Punjab is either a Jatt or Rajput. I wonder what happened to the previous inhabitants and if there are any clans/tribes that can be classified as indigenous (Pre Rajput/Jatt migration).


yes thats something i wonder as well... like every tribe claims to be from else where... so who are the native punjabis?

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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


> yes thats something i wonder as well... like every tribe claims to be from else where... so who are the native punjabis?



Tamils.

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## qamar1990

lastofthepatriots said:


> Tamils.


or the musalis ...


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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


> or the musalis ...



Technically they are both Dravidian and may in fact be the original inhabitants of Punjab region.


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## Pakistani E

qamar1990 said:


> yes thats something i wonder as well... like every tribe claims to be from else where... so who are the native punjabis?



It seems like no one wants to go in to too much depth on this. The Rakhigarhi samples may shed more light on this.


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## friendly_troll96

Sher Shah Awan said:


> Lol Look in his eyes and tell me what you see:
> 
> View attachment 435149


aik dam pagal. look at the trade mark ginormous nose. heck, they have their nicknames prefixed with the length of the nose.

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## Pakistani E

friendly_troll96 said:


> look at the trade mark ginormous nose



Large nose and slightly curly hair. This is the trademark in my folk.

Of course being a bit of a loose cannon is the generic trait of all Awans.

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## Shahzaz ud din

dreamer4eva said:


> I concur, I'm a Jatt Sikh from India Punjab. My mum is Gill and have extended family members with Bhatti surname. Also, Malik is most common surname in Hindu Jats..


There is a saying in my area !!!
Jatt he te matt nai
Matt he te jatt nai



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Malik was a title given by lords or rulers to zamindars, military leaders, clan chiefs and other occupations that belonged to the upper-level of the social hierarchy.
> 
> Maliks were not bound by ethnic, linguistic or cultural factors in comparison to tribes such as Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars and etc... who were. Instead they can be considered an 'occupational/status-origin' tribe.


In my child hood people whom we used to call TELIS (selling and extracting oil) they have promoted them selves to MALIKS.I met a person belonged to a Bihari family migrated from East Pakistan after 1971 having sir name Malik. The reason he told that his ancestors were Arab traders who came to India centuries ago.According to him Malik is an Arabic word.


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## EAK

Anything about Gakhars or kiyani's will be appreciated


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## lastofthepatriots

EAK said:


> Anything about Gakhars or kiyani's will be appreciated



Kiyanis come from Afghanistan.

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## EAK

lastofthepatriots said:


> Kiyanis come from Afghanistan.


Migrated from egypt to persia to afghanistan to pakistan ..>> As per my daddi

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Sher Shah Awan said:


> Thanks that was very detailed. Although there are some points I disagree with what I've been told by my elders, it seems to be that everyone in Punjab is either a Jatt or Rajput. I wonder what happened to the previous inhabitants and if there are any clans/tribes that can be classified as indigenous (Pre Rajput/Jatt migration).


I think you have quoted a wrong post because your quoted post talk about history/origin of Janjua and history of photohar region. What was told to you by your elders mate? Tribes of Punjab are considered as the descendents of the different racial stocks that entered the region in the past. Thus, it can be said that the population of Punjab comprises a mixed and heterogeneous race. This land is considered as the meeting ground of various races and people. In the past, the Greeks, Scythians, Turks, Huns, Mongols and Afghans made consecutive invasions into Punjab. Later on, some of them also settled here permanently and adopted the indigenous traditions and customs of this land. With the passage of time, they merged with the local population and their cultural traits became an integral part of the diverse culture of this land

Punjab is the cradle of the Indus Valley Civilization, more than 4000 years old. Archaeological excavations, throughout the state, have revealed evidences of the magnificent cities of Harapa and Mohenjodaro that existed along the banks of the mighty Indus river and its tributaries. Mahabharata , which narrates life between the 7th and 5th centuries BC, contains rich descriptions of the land and people of Punjab at that time.

The khatris kingdoms of Punjab were in decline as the result of Mahabarata where majority of Punjabi kingdoms were on the side of Kauravas against the Pandavas supported by newcomer nomad Yadavs. The annihilation of Khatris in the hands of Persian invaders around 500 BC is documented in Indian mythology as destruction of kshatriyas by Parshu Rama (Parshu = Persia, Ram = King). They also bore the brunt of Greek invasion under Alexander, the Great in 320 BC. The scythian settlers filled in the vacuum and established new kingdoms across Punjab. Cities like Rawalpindi, Gujranwala, Gujarat, Gojra, Sialkot, Bhatinda were stttled by these newcomers. Punjabi clans such as Rawals or Bhattis, Janjuas, Chauhans, Samra, Rathods, Sials, Mairs, Parmars, Minhas, and Dogras are the descendants of these kingdoms in Punjab



qamar1990 said:


> or the musalis ...


Sunar, Lohar, Julaha, Tarkhan, Nai Hajjam, darzi, teli, Qasaab, dhobi, mirasi, Chura/khakroob are profession more than tribes

@Joe Shearer and Juggernaut I am very busy right now so i will give rest to history at the moment so would let you guys to carry on discussion without hating each others

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## Shahzaz ud din

lastofthepatriots said:


> Arains aren't Rajputs. We look different.


*Originally Posted by Cocopopsmonkey* 


I am of Punjabi Arain origin - grandparents hail from Jalandhar.

My family has always claimed to be of Arab/Iranian origin. Both sides have claimed that we moved from Arabia to Persia to Multan, Punjab and from there on to Jalandhar, Punjab. However, I have always been sceptical about their version of events and their desire to have origins other than what they in fact are.

DNA Ancestry Results

Asia South 97%
Asia Central 1%
Iberian Peninsula 1%
Melanesia 1%


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## lastofthepatriots

Janbaz Rao said:


> *Originally Posted by Cocopopsmonkey*
> 
> 
> I am of Punjabi Arain origin - grandparents hail from Jalandhar.
> 
> My family has always claimed to be of Arab/Iranian origin. Both sides have claimed that we moved from Arabia to Persia to Multan, Punjab and from there on to Jalandhar, Punjab. However, I have always been sceptical about their version of events and their desire to have origins other than what they in fact are.
> 
> DNA Ancestry Results
> 
> Asia South 97%
> Asia Central 1%
> Iberian Peninsula 1%
> Melanesia 1%



Just one person's results are not conclusive in determining the origins of Arain people. I'd like to think we are native to South Asia.


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## Shahzaz ud din

Janbaz Rao said:


> *Originally Posted by Cocopopsmonkey*
> 
> 
> I am of Punjabi Arain origin - grandparents hail from Jalandhar.
> 
> My family has always claimed to be of Arab/Iranian origin. Both sides have claimed that we moved from Arabia to Persia to Multan, Punjab and from there on to Jalandhar, Punjab. However, I have always been sceptical about their version of events and their desire to have origins other than what they in fact are.
> 
> DNA Ancestry Results
> 
> Asia South 97%
> Asia Central 1%
> Iberian Peninsula 1%
> Melanesia 1%


I always wondered if Punjabi Arains were Kamboh/Kambojs who converted to Islam. Because so far I have only seen results of one Sikh Kamboj and they are very similar to yours. Basically less Euro and more caucasian on harrappa.
Which raises the question, what group Punjabi arains belonged to before conversion to islam.

Here are results of a Sikh kamboj, although he has stated that his family has mixed with Jatts and Tarkhans in past 4 generations.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.97
2 S-Indian 30.53
3 Caucasian 14.69
4 NE-Euro 10.81
5 Mediterranean 1.79


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## BATMAN

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> The annihilation of Khatris in the hands of Persian invaders around 500 BC is documented in Indian mythology



Holy Moly... Khatris are really that old! or Indian history may be having some exaggeration.


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## lastofthepatriots

Janbaz Rao said:


> I always wondered if Punjabi Arains were Kamboh/Kambojs who converted to Islam. Because so far I have only seen results of one Sikh Kamboj and they are very similar to yours. Basically less Euro and more caucasian on harrappa.
> Which raises the question, what group Punjabi arains belonged to before conversion to islam.
> 
> Here are results of a Sikh kamboj, although he has stated that his family has mixed with Jatts and Tarkhans in past 4 generations.
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 Baloch 36.97
> 2 S-Indian 30.53
> 3 Caucasian 14.69
> 4 NE-Euro 10.81
> 5 Mediterranean 1.79



Not interested in Kamboj. Show more results of Arains please.


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## Shahzaz ud din

lastofthepatriots said:


> Just one person's results are not conclusive in determining the origins of Arain people. I'd like to think we are native to South Asia.


I confirm both my maternal and paternal grandparents are from Jalandhar, though I understand I also had family in Ludhiana, prior to partition.

Another person has requested that I post the following results:

*Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:*

*Admix Results (sorted):*


# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 42.77
2 West_Asian 39.21
3 Baltic 6.52
4 East_Med 5.94
5 North_Atlantic 3.01
6 Amerindian 1.06
7 Oceanian 0.86
8 Sub-Saharan 0.52
9 Siberian 0.1



lastofthepatriots said:


> Just one person's results are not conclusive in determining the origins of Arain people. I'd like to think we are native to South Asia.





*Gene Expression*


« Open Thread, 8/4/2013Population structure, concrete and ineffable »
*What the Harappa Ancestry Project has resolved*
By Razib Khan | August 4, 2013 7:39 pm
466





My friend Zack Ajmal has been running the Harappa Ancestry Project for several years now. This is a non-institutional complement to the genomic research which occurs in the academy. His motivation was in large part to fill in the gaps of population coverage within South Asia which one sees in the academic literature. Much of this is due to politics, as the government of India has traditionally been reluctant to allow sample collection (ergo, the HGDP data uses Pakistanis as their South Asian reference, while the HapMap collected DNA from Indian Americans in Houston). Of course this sort of project is not without its own blind spots. Zack must rely on public data sets to get a better picture of groups like tribal populations and Dalits, because they are so underrepresented in the Diaspora from which he draws many of the project participants.

Once Zack has the genotype one of the primary things he does is add it to his broader data set (which includes many public samples) and analyze it with the Admixture model-based clustering package. What Admixture does is take a specific number of populations (e.g. K = 12) and generate quantity assignments to individuals. So, for example individual A might be assigned 40% population 1 and 60% population 2 for K = 2. Individual B might be 45% population 1 and 55% population 2. *These are not necessarily ‘real’ populations.* Rather, the populations and their proportions are there to allow you to discern patterns of relationships across individuals.

Since Zack has put his results online, I thought it would be useful to review what patterns have emerged over the past two years, as his sample sizes for some regions are now moderately significant. Though he has K=16 populations, not all of them will concern us, because South Asians do not tend to exhibit many of the components. I will focus on seven: S Indian, Baloch, Caucasian, NE Euro, SE Asian, Siberian and NE Asian. These are not real populations, but the labels tell you *which region these components are modal.* So, for example, the “S Indian” component peaks in southern India. The “Baloch” in among the Baloch people of southeastern Iran and southwest Pakistan. The “NE Euro” among the eastern Baltic peoples. The last three are Asian components, running the latitude from south to north to center. They only concern the first population of interest, *Bengalis. * I will combine these last three together as “Asian.”

Below is a table, mostly individuals from Zack’s results (though there are some aggregate results from public data sets). Comments below.

*Ethnicity* *SIndian* *Baloch* *Caucasian* *NEEuro* *Asian*
Bengali 53% 28% 2% 5% 8%
Bengali Baidya 45% 30% 3% 5% 12%
Bengali Baidya 45% 27% 3% 6% 12%
Bengali Brahmin 45% 35% 2% 11% 4%
Bengali Brahmin 44% 35% 5% 11% 4%
Bengali Brahmin 43% 35% 4% 10% 4%
Bengali Brahmin 42% 32% 4% 8% 6%
Bengali Brahmin 41% 33% 7% 8% 5%
Bengali Brahmin 40% 33% 4% 10% 4%
Bengali Brahmin 40% 30% 6% 10% 7%
Bengali Muslim 50% 25% 1% 5% 15%
Bengali Muslim 49% 28% 3% 4% 15%
Bengali Muslim 45% 27% 4% 4% 17%
Bengali Muslim 45% 26% 2% 2% 16%
Bengali Muslim 45% 24% 1% 3% 19%
Bengali Muslim 43% 25% 3% 2% 18%
Bengali Muslim 48% 27% 0% 5% 15%
Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 6% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 3% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 48% 35% 5% 6%
Tamil Brahmin 47% 38% 6% 4%
Tamil Brahmin 47% 40% 3% 5%
Tamil Brahmin 46% 40% 3% 6%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 50% 35% 2% 8%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 38% 6% 4%
Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 35% 6% 6%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 4% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 2% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 2% 5%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 6% 8%
Tamil Brahmin Iyer 43% 35% 6% 5%
Tamil Muslim 58% 28% 3% 2%
Tamil Nadar 62% 30% 0% 0%
Tamil Nadar 59% 32% 3% 0%
Tamil Nadar 55% 30% 3% 0%
Tamil Vellalar 50% 35% 6% 1%
Tamil Vellalar 51% 32% 5% 0%
Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 32% 5% 0%
Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 33% 0% 0%
Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 56% 36% 0% 0%
Tamil Vishwakarma 70% 23% 0% 0%
Tamil Vishwakarma 66% 25% 4% 0%
Andhra Pradesh 60% 34% 2% 0%
Andhra Pradesh 54% 36% 2% 3%
Andhra Pradesh (Hyderabad) 56% 29% 5% 0%
Andhra Pradesh (Hyderabad) 47% 35% 8% 4%
Andhra Pradesh Gouda 61% 30% 2% 1%
Andhra Pradesh Kamma 51% 33% 7% 0%
Andhra Pradesh Kapu 62% 30% 2% 1%
Andhra Pradesh Naidu 51% 32% 4% 2%
Andhra Pradesh Reddy 57% 37% 1% 0%
Andhra Pradesh Reddy 54% 38% 3% 0%
Andhra Pradesh Reddy 51% 35% 4% 0%
Andhra Pradesh Reddy 50% 36% 2% 1%
Andhra Pradesh Telegu Brahmin 45% 33% 6% 4%
AP Brahmin (Xing, N = 25) 49% 36% 3% 6%
AP Naidu (Reich, N = 4) 61% 31% 1% 1%
Kannada Devanga 60% 31% 3% 1%
Karnataka Catholic Christian 56% 37% 3% 0%
Karnataka Lingayat 55% 34% 4% 0%
Karnataka 54% 36% 2% 0%
Karnataka Brahmin 51% 35% 3% 5%
Karnataka Iyengar 49% 36% 5% 5%
Karnataka Iyengar 48% 39% 3% 5%
Karnataka Iyengar 48% 37% 3% 7%
Karnataka Brahmin 47% 38% 4% 6%
Karnataka Konkani Brahmin 47% 37% 2% 6%
Karnataka Konkani Brahmin 46% 33% 6% 7%
Karnataka Kokani Brahmin 44% 34% 6% 5%
Kerala 47% 33% 7% 2%
Kerala Brahmin 43% 39% 4% 6%
Kerala Christian 53% 35% 4% 0%
Kerala Christian 50% 35% 8% 1%
Kerala Christian 45% 33% 7% 3%
Kerala Muslim Rawther 53% 35% 2% 1%
Kerala Muslim Rawther 51% 28% 4% 3%
Kerala Nair 48% 40% 4% 0%
Kerala Nair 47% 38% 5% 5%
Kerala Syrian Christian 50% 37% 6% 0%
Kerala Syrian Christian 50% 35% 9% 1%
Kerala Syrian Christian 46% 33% 5% 4%
Kerala Syrian Christian 44% 33% 6% 4%
Pathan (HGDP, N = 23) 23% 42% 16% 11%
Kalash (HGDP, N = 23) 22% 43% 18% 11%
Burusho (HGDP, N = 25) 23% 41% 12% 10%
Brahui (HGDP, N = 25) 12% 58% 12% 2%
Sindhi (HGDP, N = 24) 29% 46% 10% 6%
Kashmiri Pandit (Reich, N = 5) 32% 39% 12% 9%
Punjabi 43% 36% 5% 9%
Punjabi 39% 39% 9% 7%
Punjabi 34% 43% 7% 7%
Punjabi 34% 40% 12% 8%
Punjabi 33% 44% 5% 10%
Punjabi 31% 41% 14% 8%
Punjabi 29% 36% 11% 11%
*Punjabi Arain 31% 44% 10% 7% *
Punjabi Brahmin 35% 40% 8% 11%
Punjabi Brahmin 33% 41% 13% 10%
Punjabi Chamar 40% 33% 9% 6%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 39% 11% 10%
Punjabi Jatt 30% 44% 6% 14%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 42% 8% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 46% 7% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 40% 10% 15%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 44% 10% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 35% 16% 11%
Punjabi Jatt Muslim 30% 39% 13% 8%
Punjabi Khatri 30% 42% 12% 12%
Punjabi Lahori Muslim 31% 44% 11% 8%
Punjabi Pahari Rajput 34% 43% 11% 7%
Punjabi Pakistan 28% 36% 16% 7%
Punjabi Ramgarhia 35% 43% 5% 9%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jatt 28% 38% 5% 20%
Haryana Jatt 26% 39% 10% 17%
Rajasthan Marwari Jain 47% 34% 5% 6%
Rajasthani Agarwal 51% 37% 6% 1%
Rajasthani Brahmin 32% 38% 9% 15%
Rajasthani Marwari 48% 34% 6% 2%
Rajasthani Rajput 45% 38% 5% 9%
UP 40% 28% 10% 8%
UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%
UP Muslim 33% 33% 10% 9%
UP Muslim 28% 35% 12% 11%
UP Muslim Pathan 48% 36% 7% 4%
UP Muslim Syed 33% 31% 13% 7%
UP Syed 36% 37% 7% 8%
UP/Haryana Agarwal 52% 35% 6% 2%
UP/Haryana Jatt 28% 42% 7% 18%
UP/Madhya Pradesh 51% 27% 1% 7%
UP/Punjabi 40% 33% 7% 10%
UP/Punjabi Khatri 27% 43% 10% 11%
Bihari Baniya 47% 31% 5% 5%
Bihari Brahmin 39% 38% 5% 11%
Bihari Kayastha 53% 33% 1% 7%
Bihari Muslim 48% 28% 5% 8%
Bihari Muslim 42% 34% 9% 6%
Bihari Muslim 41% 36% 7% 8%
Bihari Muslim 42% 32% 7% 9%
Bihari Syed 42% 35% 4% 9%
Gujarati (HapMap, N = 63, Patel) 54% 42% 0% 1%
Gujarati (HapMap, N = 34, Non-Patel) 44% 39% 5%



Janbaz Rao said:


> I confirm both my maternal and paternal grandparents are from Jalandhar, though I understand I also had family in Ludhiana, prior to partition.
> 
> Another person has requested that I post the following results:
> 
> *Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:*
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):*
> 
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 South_Asian 42.77
> 2 West_Asian 39.21
> 3 Baltic 6.52
> 4 East_Med 5.94
> 5 North_Atlantic 3.01
> 6 Amerindian 1.06
> 7 Oceanian 0.86
> 8 Sub-Saharan 0.52
> 9 Siberian 0.1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Gene Expression*
> 
> 
> « Open Thread, 8/4/2013Population structure, concrete and ineffable »
> *What the Harappa Ancestry Project has resolved*
> By Razib Khan | August 4, 2013 7:39 pm
> 466
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My friend Zack Ajmal has been running the Harappa Ancestry Project for several years now. This is a non-institutional complement to the genomic research which occurs in the academy. His motivation was in large part to fill in the gaps of population coverage within South Asia which one sees in the academic literature. Much of this is due to politics, as the government of India has traditionally been reluctant to allow sample collection (ergo, the HGDP data uses Pakistanis as their South Asian reference, while the HapMap collected DNA from Indian Americans in Houston). Of course this sort of project is not without its own blind spots. Zack must rely on public data sets to get a better picture of groups like tribal populations and Dalits, because they are so underrepresented in the Diaspora from which he draws many of the project participants.
> 
> Once Zack has the genotype one of the primary things he does is add it to his broader data set (which includes many public samples) and analyze it with the Admixture model-based clustering package. What Admixture does is take a specific number of populations (e.g. K = 12) and generate quantity assignments to individuals. So, for example individual A might be assigned 40% population 1 and 60% population 2 for K = 2. Individual B might be 45% population 1 and 55% population 2. *These are not necessarily ‘real’ populations.* Rather, the populations and their proportions are there to allow you to discern patterns of relationships across individuals.
> 
> Since Zack has put his results online, I thought it would be useful to review what patterns have emerged over the past two years, as his sample sizes for some regions are now moderately significant. Though he has K=16 populations, not all of them will concern us, because South Asians do not tend to exhibit many of the components. I will focus on seven: S Indian, Baloch, Caucasian, NE Euro, SE Asian, Siberian and NE Asian. These are not real populations, but the labels tell you *which region these components are modal.* So, for example, the “S Indian” component peaks in southern India. The “Baloch” in among the Baloch people of southeastern Iran and southwest Pakistan. The “NE Euro” among the eastern Baltic peoples. The last three are Asian components, running the latitude from south to north to center. They only concern the first population of interest, *Bengalis. * I will combine these last three together as “Asian.”
> 
> Below is a table, mostly individuals from Zack’s results (though there are some aggregate results from public data sets). Comments below.
> 
> *Ethnicity* *SIndian* *Baloch* *Caucasian* *NEEuro* *Asian*
> Bengali 53% 28% 2% 5% 8%
> Bengali Baidya 45% 30% 3% 5% 12%
> Bengali Baidya 45% 27% 3% 6% 12%
> Bengali Brahmin 45% 35% 2% 11% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 44% 35% 5% 11% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 43% 35% 4% 10% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 42% 32% 4% 8% 6%
> Bengali Brahmin 41% 33% 7% 8% 5%
> Bengali Brahmin 40% 33% 4% 10% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 40% 30% 6% 10% 7%
> Bengali Muslim 50% 25% 1% 5% 15%
> Bengali Muslim 49% 28% 3% 4% 15%
> Bengali Muslim 45% 27% 4% 4% 17%
> Bengali Muslim 45% 26% 2% 2% 16%
> Bengali Muslim 45% 24% 1% 3% 19%
> Bengali Muslim 43% 25% 3% 2% 18%
> Bengali Muslim 48% 27% 0% 5% 15%
> Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 6% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 3% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin 48% 35% 5% 6%
> Tamil Brahmin 47% 38% 6% 4%
> Tamil Brahmin 47% 40% 3% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin 46% 40% 3% 6%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 50% 35% 2% 8%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 38% 6% 4%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 35% 6% 6%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 4% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 2% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 2% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 6% 8%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 43% 35% 6% 5%
> Tamil Muslim 58% 28% 3% 2%
> Tamil Nadar 62% 30% 0% 0%
> Tamil Nadar 59% 32% 3% 0%
> Tamil Nadar 55% 30% 3% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar 50% 35% 6% 1%
> Tamil Vellalar 51% 32% 5% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 32% 5% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 33% 0% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 56% 36% 0% 0%
> Tamil Vishwakarma 70% 23% 0% 0%
> Tamil Vishwakarma 66% 25% 4% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh 60% 34% 2% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh 54% 36% 2% 3%
> Andhra Pradesh (Hyderabad) 56% 29% 5% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh (Hyderabad) 47% 35% 8% 4%
> Andhra Pradesh Gouda 61% 30% 2% 1%
> Andhra Pradesh Kamma 51% 33% 7% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Kapu 62% 30% 2% 1%
> Andhra Pradesh Naidu 51% 32% 4% 2%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 57% 37% 1% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 54% 38% 3% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 51% 35% 4% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 50% 36% 2% 1%
> Andhra Pradesh Telegu Brahmin 45% 33% 6% 4%
> AP Brahmin (Xing, N = 25) 49% 36% 3% 6%
> AP Naidu (Reich, N = 4) 61% 31% 1% 1%
> Kannada Devanga 60% 31% 3% 1%
> Karnataka Catholic Christian 56% 37% 3% 0%
> Karnataka Lingayat 55% 34% 4% 0%
> Karnataka 54% 36% 2% 0%
> Karnataka Brahmin 51% 35% 3% 5%
> Karnataka Iyengar 49% 36% 5% 5%
> Karnataka Iyengar 48% 39% 3% 5%
> Karnataka Iyengar 48% 37% 3% 7%
> Karnataka Brahmin 47% 38% 4% 6%
> Karnataka Konkani Brahmin 47% 37% 2% 6%
> Karnataka Konkani Brahmin 46% 33% 6% 7%
> Karnataka Kokani Brahmin 44% 34% 6% 5%
> Kerala 47% 33% 7% 2%
> Kerala Brahmin 43% 39% 4% 6%
> Kerala Christian 53% 35% 4% 0%
> Kerala Christian 50% 35% 8% 1%
> Kerala Christian 45% 33% 7% 3%
> Kerala Muslim Rawther 53% 35% 2% 1%
> Kerala Muslim Rawther 51% 28% 4% 3%
> Kerala Nair 48% 40% 4% 0%
> Kerala Nair 47% 38% 5% 5%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 50% 37% 6% 0%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 50% 35% 9% 1%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 46% 33% 5% 4%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 44% 33% 6% 4%
> Pathan (HGDP, N = 23) 23% 42% 16% 11%
> Kalash (HGDP, N = 23) 22% 43% 18% 11%
> Burusho (HGDP, N = 25) 23% 41% 12% 10%
> Brahui (HGDP, N = 25) 12% 58% 12% 2%
> Sindhi (HGDP, N = 24) 29% 46% 10% 6%
> Kashmiri Pandit (Reich, N = 5) 32% 39% 12% 9%
> Punjabi 43% 36% 5% 9%
> Punjabi 39% 39% 9% 7%
> Punjabi 34% 43% 7% 7%
> Punjabi 34% 40% 12% 8%
> Punjabi 33% 44% 5% 10%
> Punjabi 31% 41% 14% 8%
> Punjabi 29% 36% 11% 11%
> *Punjabi Arain 31% 44% 10% 7% *
> Punjabi Brahmin 35% 40% 8% 11%
> Punjabi Brahmin 33% 41% 13% 10%
> Punjabi Chamar 40% 33% 9% 6%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 39% 11% 10%
> Punjabi Jatt 30% 44% 6% 14%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 42% 8% 13%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 46% 7% 13%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 40% 10% 15%
> Punjabi Jatt 27% 44% 10% 13%
> Punjabi Jatt 27% 35% 16% 11%
> Punjabi Jatt Muslim 30% 39% 13% 8%
> Punjabi Khatri 30% 42% 12% 12%
> Punjabi Lahori Muslim 31% 44% 11% 8%
> Punjabi Pahari Rajput 34% 43% 11% 7%
> Punjabi Pakistan 28% 36% 16% 7%
> Punjabi Ramgarhia 35% 43% 5% 9%
> Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
> Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
> Haryana Jatt 28% 38% 5% 20%
> Haryana Jatt 26% 39% 10% 17%
> Rajasthan Marwari Jain 47% 34% 5% 6%
> Rajasthani Agarwal 51% 37% 6% 1%
> Rajasthani Brahmin 32% 38% 9% 15%
> Rajasthani Marwari 48% 34% 6% 2%
> Rajasthani Rajput 45% 38% 5% 9%
> UP 40% 28% 10% 8%
> UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
> UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
> UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
> UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%
> UP Muslim 33% 33% 10% 9%
> UP Muslim 28% 35% 12% 11%
> UP Muslim Pathan 48% 36% 7% 4%
> UP Muslim Syed 33% 31% 13% 7%
> UP Syed 36% 37% 7% 8%
> UP/Haryana Agarwal 52% 35% 6% 2%
> UP/Haryana Jatt 28% 42% 7% 18%
> UP/Madhya Pradesh 51% 27% 1% 7%
> UP/Punjabi 40% 33% 7% 10%
> UP/Punjabi Khatri 27% 43% 10% 11%
> Bihari Baniya 47% 31% 5% 5%
> Bihari Brahmin 39% 38% 5% 11%
> Bihari Kayastha 53% 33% 1% 7%
> Bihari Muslim 48% 28% 5% 8%
> Bihari Muslim 42% 34% 9% 6%
> Bihari Muslim 41% 36% 7% 8%
> Bihari Muslim 42% 32% 7% 9%
> Bihari Syed 42% 35% 4% 9%
> Gujarati (HapMap, N = 63, Patel) 54% 42% 0% 1%
> Gujarati (HapMap, N = 34, Non-Patel) 44% 39% 5%


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arain
Genetics:
Genetic datasets taken from 25 Pakistani Punjabi Arain by Xing et al's Human genome variation study paints an intriguing picture. Preliminary studies by the Harappa Ancestry Project of the data of the Arain group show an almost identical profile to Sindhi's (without African admixture), however there appears to be little West Asian contribution, indicating any recent descent from an Arab population is unlikely. [14]

Interestingly this does back up the idea that Arain and Sindhi groups are related, so tales of Arain migration from Sindh to Punjab may hold some truth, as well as the idea that Arain converted to Islam under the rule of Muhammad bin Qasim.

There are some flaws in this data, it is most likely that Arain genetic profiles vary according to the region and economic class of the Arains involved. This is backed up by the observation that Western Punjab Arain often have coloured eyes and fairer skin than their Eastern Punjab counterparts. However since the creation of Pakistan there has been increased intermarriage between the two groups creating a more complex genetic picture. The ancestral background of the subjects is not stated beyond classing the probands as Arain.
Regards
Amir Arain
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volvo Rex said...

This Arab theory is flawed and fabricated. Arains are descendants of Scythian Medes who settled in Sindh in around 200 AD, moving from Eastern Balochistan (Bolan Pass) into the lower Indus Valley. They were originally Buddhist and fought together with Muhammad bin Qasim's army against Raja Dahir. Arains and Jatts have a common history, both farming/zamindar people, originally from lower Indus Valley, Sindh.

Arain genetics prove the Scythian Medes link. On Harappa DNA, Arains show average 45% Gedrosian Baloch, higher than other Punjabis, component which is Eurasian/Western Asian component related to the Eastern Medes Scythians.
In addition, they have lowest ASI of all groups, 5-6 individual samples show 18-24% ASI, comparable to the Pashtuns, Burusho and Kalash, indicating Scythian origin. Arains have average 22% European in Harappa DNA, also pointing to Scythian Medes ancestry. Haplogroup R1a is in frequency in Arains, pointing to Scythian Medes link.

Arains are known to have then moved up the Indus River to Panjnad and converted to Islam from Buddhism at the behest of Makhdoom Jahanian Sharif at Uch. Later, after fighting with Hindu Bhattis of Jaisalmer, they moved into Majha and Doaba regions of Punjab where they settled down and started farming. Apart from the Janjuas and Sikh Jatts, they are the only tribe that can have said to have ruled Punjab in the form of Adina Beg Khan, Arain chief of the Jullundur Doab and later all of Punjab. He defeated the invading Durrani and Rohilla Afghans in war and the Ahluwalia and Ramgarhia Sikh misls to the East and united Punjabi Muslims for the first time in history.

Arains also show very Scythian Iranic features. Examples of Arain cricketers showing Scythian Iranic features:



Janbaz Rao said:


> I confirm both my maternal and paternal grandparents are from Jalandhar, though I understand I also had family in Ludhiana, prior to partition.
> 
> Another person has requested that I post the following results:
> 
> *Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:*
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):*
> 
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 South_Asian 42.77
> 2 West_Asian 39.21
> 3 Baltic 6.52
> 4 East_Med 5.94
> 5 North_Atlantic 3.01
> 6 Amerindian 1.06
> 7 Oceanian 0.86
> 8 Sub-Saharan 0.52
> 9 Siberian 0.1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Gene Expression*
> 
> 
> « Open Thread, 8/4/2013Population structure, concrete and ineffable »
> *What the Harappa Ancestry Project has resolved*
> By Razib Khan | August 4, 2013 7:39 pm
> 466
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My friend Zack Ajmal has been running the Harappa Ancestry Project for several years now. This is a non-institutional complement to the genomic research which occurs in the academy. His motivation was in large part to fill in the gaps of population coverage within South Asia which one sees in the academic literature. Much of this is due to politics, as the government of India has traditionally been reluctant to allow sample collection (ergo, the HGDP data uses Pakistanis as their South Asian reference, while the HapMap collected DNA from Indian Americans in Houston). Of course this sort of project is not without its own blind spots. Zack must rely on public data sets to get a better picture of groups like tribal populations and Dalits, because they are so underrepresented in the Diaspora from which he draws many of the project participants.
> 
> Once Zack has the genotype one of the primary things he does is add it to his broader data set (which includes many public samples) and analyze it with the Admixture model-based clustering package. What Admixture does is take a specific number of populations (e.g. K = 12) and generate quantity assignments to individuals. So, for example individual A might be assigned 40% population 1 and 60% population 2 for K = 2. Individual B might be 45% population 1 and 55% population 2. *These are not necessarily ‘real’ populations.* Rather, the populations and their proportions are there to allow you to discern patterns of relationships across individuals.
> 
> Since Zack has put his results online, I thought it would be useful to review what patterns have emerged over the past two years, as his sample sizes for some regions are now moderately significant. Though he has K=16 populations, not all of them will concern us, because South Asians do not tend to exhibit many of the components. I will focus on seven: S Indian, Baloch, Caucasian, NE Euro, SE Asian, Siberian and NE Asian. These are not real populations, but the labels tell you *which region these components are modal.* So, for example, the “S Indian” component peaks in southern India. The “Baloch” in among the Baloch people of southeastern Iran and southwest Pakistan. The “NE Euro” among the eastern Baltic peoples. The last three are Asian components, running the latitude from south to north to center. They only concern the first population of interest, *Bengalis. * I will combine these last three together as “Asian.”
> 
> Below is a table, mostly individuals from Zack’s results (though there are some aggregate results from public data sets). Comments below.
> 
> *Ethnicity* *SIndian* *Baloch* *Caucasian* *NEEuro* *Asian*
> Bengali 53% 28% 2% 5% 8%
> Bengali Baidya 45% 30% 3% 5% 12%
> Bengali Baidya 45% 27% 3% 6% 12%
> Bengali Brahmin 45% 35% 2% 11% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 44% 35% 5% 11% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 43% 35% 4% 10% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 42% 32% 4% 8% 6%
> Bengali Brahmin 41% 33% 7% 8% 5%
> Bengali Brahmin 40% 33% 4% 10% 4%
> Bengali Brahmin 40% 30% 6% 10% 7%
> Bengali Muslim 50% 25% 1% 5% 15%
> Bengali Muslim 49% 28% 3% 4% 15%
> Bengali Muslim 45% 27% 4% 4% 17%
> Bengali Muslim 45% 26% 2% 2% 16%
> Bengali Muslim 45% 24% 1% 3% 19%
> Bengali Muslim 43% 25% 3% 2% 18%
> Bengali Muslim 48% 27% 0% 5% 15%
> Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 6% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin 48% 37% 3% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin 48% 35% 5% 6%
> Tamil Brahmin 47% 38% 6% 4%
> Tamil Brahmin 47% 40% 3% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin 46% 40% 3% 6%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 50% 35% 2% 8%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 38% 6% 4%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyengar 47% 35% 6% 6%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 4% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 48% 38% 2% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 2% 5%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 47% 37% 6% 8%
> Tamil Brahmin Iyer 43% 35% 6% 5%
> Tamil Muslim 58% 28% 3% 2%
> Tamil Nadar 62% 30% 0% 0%
> Tamil Nadar 59% 32% 3% 0%
> Tamil Nadar 55% 30% 3% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar 50% 35% 6% 1%
> Tamil Vellalar 51% 32% 5% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 32% 5% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 60% 33% 0% 0%
> Tamil Vellalar (Sri Lankan) 56% 36% 0% 0%
> Tamil Vishwakarma 70% 23% 0% 0%
> Tamil Vishwakarma 66% 25% 4% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh 60% 34% 2% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh 54% 36% 2% 3%
> Andhra Pradesh (Hyderabad) 56% 29% 5% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh (Hyderabad) 47% 35% 8% 4%
> Andhra Pradesh Gouda 61% 30% 2% 1%
> Andhra Pradesh Kamma 51% 33% 7% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Kapu 62% 30% 2% 1%
> Andhra Pradesh Naidu 51% 32% 4% 2%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 57% 37% 1% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 54% 38% 3% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 51% 35% 4% 0%
> Andhra Pradesh Reddy 50% 36% 2% 1%
> Andhra Pradesh Telegu Brahmin 45% 33% 6% 4%
> AP Brahmin (Xing, N = 25) 49% 36% 3% 6%
> AP Naidu (Reich, N = 4) 61% 31% 1% 1%
> Kannada Devanga 60% 31% 3% 1%
> Karnataka Catholic Christian 56% 37% 3% 0%
> Karnataka Lingayat 55% 34% 4% 0%
> Karnataka 54% 36% 2% 0%
> Karnataka Brahmin 51% 35% 3% 5%
> Karnataka Iyengar 49% 36% 5% 5%
> Karnataka Iyengar 48% 39% 3% 5%
> Karnataka Iyengar 48% 37% 3% 7%
> Karnataka Brahmin 47% 38% 4% 6%
> Karnataka Konkani Brahmin 47% 37% 2% 6%
> Karnataka Konkani Brahmin 46% 33% 6% 7%
> Karnataka Kokani Brahmin 44% 34% 6% 5%
> Kerala 47% 33% 7% 2%
> Kerala Brahmin 43% 39% 4% 6%
> Kerala Christian 53% 35% 4% 0%
> Kerala Christian 50% 35% 8% 1%
> Kerala Christian 45% 33% 7% 3%
> Kerala Muslim Rawther 53% 35% 2% 1%
> Kerala Muslim Rawther 51% 28% 4% 3%
> Kerala Nair 48% 40% 4% 0%
> Kerala Nair 47% 38% 5% 5%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 50% 37% 6% 0%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 50% 35% 9% 1%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 46% 33% 5% 4%
> Kerala Syrian Christian 44% 33% 6% 4%
> Pathan (HGDP, N = 23) 23% 42% 16% 11%
> Kalash (HGDP, N = 23) 22% 43% 18% 11%
> Burusho (HGDP, N = 25) 23% 41% 12% 10%
> Brahui (HGDP, N = 25) 12% 58% 12% 2%
> Sindhi (HGDP, N = 24) 29% 46% 10% 6%
> Kashmiri Pandit (Reich, N = 5) 32% 39% 12% 9%
> Punjabi 43% 36% 5% 9%
> Punjabi 39% 39% 9% 7%
> Punjabi 34% 43% 7% 7%
> Punjabi 34% 40% 12% 8%
> Punjabi 33% 44% 5% 10%
> Punjabi 31% 41% 14% 8%
> Punjabi 29% 36% 11% 11%
> *Punjabi Arain 31% 44% 10% 7% *
> Punjabi Brahmin 35% 40% 8% 11%
> Punjabi Brahmin 33% 41% 13% 10%
> Punjabi Chamar 40% 33% 9% 6%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 39% 11% 10%
> Punjabi Jatt 30% 44% 6% 14%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 42% 8% 13%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 46% 7% 13%
> Punjabi Jatt 28% 40% 10% 15%
> Punjabi Jatt 27% 44% 10% 13%
> Punjabi Jatt 27% 35% 16% 11%
> Punjabi Jatt Muslim 30% 39% 13% 8%
> Punjabi Khatri 30% 42% 12% 12%
> Punjabi Lahori Muslim 31% 44% 11% 8%
> Punjabi Pahari Rajput 34% 43% 11% 7%
> Punjabi Pakistan 28% 36% 16% 7%
> Punjabi Ramgarhia 35% 43% 5% 9%
> Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
> Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
> Haryana Jatt 28% 38% 5% 20%
> Haryana Jatt 26% 39% 10% 17%
> Rajasthan Marwari Jain 47% 34% 5% 6%
> Rajasthani Agarwal 51% 37% 6% 1%
> Rajasthani Brahmin 32% 38% 9% 15%
> Rajasthani Marwari 48% 34% 6% 2%
> Rajasthani Rajput 45% 38% 5% 9%
> UP 40% 28% 10% 8%
> UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
> UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
> UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
> UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%
> UP Muslim 33% 33% 10% 9%
> UP Muslim 28% 35% 12% 11%
> UP Muslim Pathan 48% 36% 7% 4%
> UP Muslim Syed 33% 31% 13% 7%
> UP Syed 36% 37% 7% 8%
> UP/Haryana Agarwal 52% 35% 6% 2%
> UP/Haryana Jatt 28% 42% 7% 18%
> UP/Madhya Pradesh 51% 27% 1% 7%
> UP/Punjabi 40% 33% 7% 10%
> UP/Punjabi Khatri 27% 43% 10% 11%
> Bihari Baniya 47% 31% 5% 5%
> Bihari Brahmin 39% 38% 5% 11%
> Bihari Kayastha 53% 33% 1% 7%
> Bihari Muslim 48% 28% 5% 8%
> Bihari Muslim 42% 34% 9% 6%
> Bihari Muslim 41% 36% 7% 8%
> Bihari Muslim 42% 32% 7% 9%
> Bihari Syed 42% 35% 4% 9%
> Gujarati (HapMap, N = 63, Patel) 54% 42% 0% 1%
> Gujarati (HapMap, N = 34, Non-Patel) 44% 39% 5%
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Anonymous said...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arain
> Genetics:
> Genetic datasets taken from 25 Pakistani Punjabi Arain by Xing et al's Human genome variation study paints an intriguing picture. Preliminary studies by the Harappa Ancestry Project of the data of the Arain group show an almost identical profile to Sindhi's (without African admixture), however there appears to be little West Asian contribution, indicating any recent descent from an Arab population is unlikely. [14]
> 
> Interestingly this does back up the idea that Arain and Sindhi groups are related, so tales of Arain migration from Sindh to Punjab may hold some truth, as well as the idea that Arain converted to Islam under the rule of Muhammad bin Qasim.
> 
> There are some flaws in this data, it is most likely that Arain genetic profiles vary according to the region and economic class of the Arains involved. This is backed up by the observation that Western Punjab Arain often have coloured eyes and fairer skin than their Eastern Punjab counterparts. However since the creation of Pakistan there has been increased intermarriage between the two groups creating a more complex genetic picture. The ancestral background of the subjects is not stated beyond classing the probands as Arain.
> Regards
> Amir Arain
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Volvo Rex said...
> 
> This Arab theory is flawed and fabricated. Arains are descendants of Scythian Medes who settled in Sindh in around 200 AD, moving from Eastern Balochistan (Bolan Pass) into the lower Indus Valley. They were originally Buddhist and fought together with Muhammad bin Qasim's army against Raja Dahir. Arains and Jatts have a common history, both farming/zamindar people, originally from lower Indus Valley, Sindh.
> 
> Arain genetics prove the Scythian Medes link. On Harappa DNA, Arains show average 45% Gedrosian Baloch, higher than other Punjabis, component which is Eurasian/Western Asian component related to the Eastern Medes Scythians.
> In addition, they have lowest ASI of all groups, 5-6 individual samples show 18-24% ASI, comparable to the Pashtuns, Burusho and Kalash, indicating Scythian origin. Arains have average 22% European in Harappa DNA, also pointing to Scythian Medes ancestry. Haplogroup R1a is in frequency in Arains, pointing to Scythian Medes link.
> 
> Arains are known to have then moved up the Indus River to Panjnad and converted to Islam from Buddhism at the behest of Makhdoom Jahanian Sharif at Uch. Later, after fighting with Hindu Bhattis of Jaisalmer, they moved into Majha and Doaba regions of Punjab where they settled down and started farming. Apart from the Janjuas and Sikh Jatts, they are the only tribe that can have said to have ruled Punjab in the form of Adina Beg Khan, Arain chief of the Jullundur Doab and later all of Punjab. He defeated the invading Durrani and Rohilla Afghans in war and the Ahluwalia and Ramgarhia Sikh misls to the East and united Punjabi Muslims for the first time in history.
> 
> Arains also show very Scythian Iranic features. Examples of Arain cricketers showing Scythian Iranic features:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A branch of the Wattu Rajputs of the Sutlej by an affection of peculiar sanctity, have in the course of a few generations become Bodeas and now deny their Rajput and claim Qureshi origin. There is a Kharral family lately settled in Bahawalpur who have begun to affect peculiar holiness and to marry only with each other and their next step will certainly be to claim Arab descent."

" But all in all, the foreign Muslim ancestory element among Punjabis does not exceed more than 20% of their population."

*"According to the Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains of sahiwal District themselves pointed out that they are Surajbansi Rajputs originally settled around Delhi. Arains of Ghaggar Valley say that they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan. Mr. Pursr writes that they are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. the Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran who was related to him."*

And all these "sources" are more than a century old, and further the links themselves have expired and are serving a cache.

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## Kambojaric

Janbaz Rao said:


> I always wondered if Punjabi Arains were Kamboh/Kambojs who converted to Islam. Because so far I have only seen results of one Sikh Kamboj and they are very similar to yours. Basically less Euro and more caucasian on harrappa.
> Which raises the question, what group Punjabi arains belonged to before conversion to islam.
> 
> Here are results of a Sikh kamboj, although he has stated that his family has mixed with Jatts and Tarkhans in past 4 generations.
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 Baloch 36.97
> 2 S-Indian 30.53
> 3 Caucasian 14.69
> 4 NE-Euro 10.81
> 5 Mediterranean 1.79



Not all Kamboh are Sikh though. A large population is Muslim like myself. Notable Muslim Kamboh figures include https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saleh_Kamboh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Khan_Kamboh.

Our family is traceable to the walled city of Lahore till at least the early-mid 1800s. The likelihood is that we have been there for centuries given the presence of Masjid Saleh Kamboh only a couple of minutes walk from our haveli (the mosque dates to the 1600s). Given that Kambohs were one of the few local Muslim tribes that were integrated into the Mughal nobility, our presence in the walled city several centuries back is a strong possibility. With regards to the relation with Arains, I have heard of this close affinity in the past, yet have not seen any evidence presented as to why this affinity is claimed. Arains afaik are exclusively Muslim.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

lastofthepatriots said:


> Technically they are both Dravidian and may in fact be the original inhabitants of Punjab region.


Actually most of these groups originated from South India and most likely migrated during the British Raj.

In my city; Sialkot for example, there is a very large christian population; mostly of the Chura tribe. They were brought over from South India to work as servants, primarily in the British Cantonment.

Also, it is a very widespread misconception that the original inhabitants of our region were Dravidians. It's a theory that holds very little evidence and has been overblown and obsessively endorsed by Indians who have been fanatically exhausting every possible way they can to associate themselves with the Indus Valley Civilization.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Sher Shah Awan said:


> Thanks that was very detailed. Although there are some points I disagree with what I've been told by my elders, it seems to be that everyone in Punjab is either a Jatt or Rajput. I wonder what happened to the previous inhabitants and if there are any clans/tribes that can be classified as indigenous (Pre Rajput/Jatt migration).


There are hardly any tribes in this world who have managed to maintain a lineage spanning thousands of years. Almost every ethno-racial group has been genetically influenced by another, it was historically crucial for civilizational evolution and development. Just look at the various indigenous peoples of today, such as the Sentinelese and the Amazonians and you will realize how crucial 'mixing' was.

After the decline and collapse of IVC, it was various mass-migrations into the Indus Basin that rekindled the flame of civilization in the Indus region once again. It was during their era, that we were most likely introduced our "tribal/baradari system", hence why most of our tribes today can trace their line back to these migrations.

However there is no doubt, that our blood is considerably or mostly indigenous and we can proudly say that we are of dual ancestry and "the best of both worlds".

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## django

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Also, it is a very widespread misconception that the original inhabitants of our region were Dravidians. It's a theory that holds very little evidence and has been overblown and obsessively endorsed by *Indians who have been fanatically exhausting every possible way they can associate themselves with the Indus Valley Civilization.*


ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Their latest abhorrent attempt to hijack the history of lands associated with Pakistan is to come up with the bizarre and absurd claim that Bugtis and Marris are Marathi descendants heheheheheeee (I kid you not), I suspect in order to justify their now open interference in Baluchestan,,,,,,,,, Kasuri sahib summed it up best.





Typical Marathis





The Quintessential Bugti

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> @Proudpakistaniguy Brilliant write up..confirms What I suspected
> 
> 20% of the Paternal genes in Punjab descend from Islamic invasions
> may be around 10-20% from the Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasions
> 
> and around 16% from the original Aryan invasion
> 
> -------The mix of Central Asian genes in Indo-Aryan Pak Punjab would be around 46-56%----------------------
> 
> 
> while regarding India upper caste Hindu in North-West
> 
> 10% from Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasion
> 16% from original Aryan invasion
> ----The Mix of Central Asian genes in North Western Republic of India would be around 26%---------------------
> 
> 
> This for you as well as @Joe Shearer as to how one tribe pushes the other out of central Asia and all of them follow like a train to the subcontinent


There was also an Indian study that found that Greek genetic contribution was up to 15% of the population of Punjab (Indian Punjab). I'm guessing these numbers would be much higher on the Pakistani side.

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There was also an Indian study that found that Greek genetic contribution was up to 15% of the population of Punjab (Indian Punjab). I'm guessing these numbers would be much higher on the Pakistani side.





I am including the Greek Influence in the paternal lineages in the same club as Scythian,Kushana,Parthian,Hunas

then it seems my guess has been stupendously correct......I said that the share of pre-Islamic Central Asian Lineages in the overall paternal linage in North West India is 10% and 20% in Pakistan (This exluding the original Aryan lineages)

around 56% of the paternal Lineages in Pakistani Punjab and Sindh stem from Central Asia
around 26% of the paternal Lineages in North-Western India stem from Central Asia
around 16% of the paternal Lineages in rest of North-India stem from Central Asia
around 2-5% of the paternal Lineages in South India stem from Central Asia (Brahmins such as F1 team owner Vijay Mallya and his son, Google CEO Sundar Pichai etc etc)



This gradation would give you a very good idea how people in India look vis-a-vis Pak Punjabi and Sindhi.......for Punjab and Jammu and Kashmir Hindus/Sikhs you should up the percentage to 30 from 26...

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## padamchen

django said:


> ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Their latest abhorrent attempt to hijack the history of lands associated with Pakistan is to come up with the bizarre and absurd claim that Bugtis and Marris are Marathi descendants heheheheheeee (I kid you not), I suspect in order to justify their now open interference in Baluchestan,,,,,,,,, Kasuri sahib summed it up best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Typical Marathis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Quintessential Bugti



Marri only. Not really desert fighters, but come from the stock of some of the world's finest guerilla warriors from the ghats of Western India.

It's a well chronicled fact. From Maratha times.

And Maratha and Marathi are not really synonymous.

Cheers, Doc

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## django

padamchen said:


> Marri only. Not really desert fighters, but come from the stock of some of the world's finest guerilla warriors from the ghats of Western India.
> 
> It's a well chronicled fact. From Maratha times.
> 
> And Maratha and Marathi are not really synonymous.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Doc their are Indian sites all over the net claiming both Bugtis and Marris as Marathis , common sense says else, it seems the obsession to create links where their are non has made some of the RSS types truly unhinged, btw their are some RSS types who are claiming Saxons due to some Indians having the name Saxena (I could go on and on), I swear I am not kidding, once again futile attempts by Ganga folks to try to fuse different regions, ethnicities in some grand illusion of oneness of so called Bharat Mata.Kudos Doc
BTW Doc you are a bright man, I suspect their is no way in hell you believe Marris and Marathis are one and the same. Kudos and regards Doc

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

django said:


> Doc their are Indian sites all over the net claiming both Bugtis and Marris as Marathis , common sense says else, it seems the obsession to create links where their are non has made some of the RSS types truly unhinged, btw their are some RSS types who are claiming Saxons due to some Indians having the name Saxena (I could go on and on), I swear I am not kidding, once again futile attempts by Ganga folks to try to fuse different regions, ethnicities in some grand illusion of oneness of so called Bharat Mata.Kudos Doc
> BTW Doc you are a bright man, I suspect their is no way in hell you believe Marris and Marathis are one and the same. Kudos and regards Doc




Russland comes from Rishi
Taj Mahal comes from Tejo Mahalaya
Christianity comes from Krishna Neeti (Rules of Krishna)
Vatican comes from Vatika (general House)


I could go on and on


BTW This is all crazy, and contributes heavily to the utter historical ignorance of the affluent upper middle class of India 


It is all down to PN Oak...Hindus have an incorrigible fondness for his utter gutter trash
His son Nilkanth Oak seems to have garnered a sizeable following in the Indian Internet crowd

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## padamchen

django said:


> Doc their are Indian sites all over the net claiming both Bugtis and Marris as Marathis , common sense says else, it seems the obsession to create links where their are non has made some of the RSS types truly unhinged, btw their are some RSS types who are claiming Saxons due to some Indians having the name Saxena (I could go on and on), I swear I am not kidding, once again futile attempts by Ganga folks to try to fuse different regions, ethnicities in some grand illusion of oneness of so called Bharat Mata.Kudos Doc
> BTW Doc you are a bright man, I suspect their is no way in hell you believe Marris and Marathis are one and the same. Kudos and regards Doc



Bro I'm not a sanghi. But I am a Maratha. And what I'm telling you about the Marri is chronicled fact, with lineages and family trees. Not Bugtis. Or any of the other tribes.

The Marri are ours.

It was delicious irony that later on through the sands of time, brother fought brother at the fort of Kahun.

Our Maratha regiment is the oldest regiment with painstakingly chronicled history. Right here in Poona. And we have a road named Kahun Road to honour those brave soldiers, fighting thousands of kilometres away from home.

And fighting whom?

The Marri tribesmen!!!!!!! Now fully Muslim and Balochified ....

Cheers, Doc

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## lastofthepatriots

@DESERT FIGHTER

Can you give information regarding your tribe?

Is what the fire hopper saying true?

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## padamchen

Gotya cuddling again.

Get married. Have kids. Getting old ....

Want the parents of your child's classmates thinking you to be his grandpop?

Cheers, Doc

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## lastofthepatriots

padamchen said:


> Gotya cuddling again.
> 
> Get married. Have kids. Getting old ....
> 
> Want the parents of your child's classmates thinking you to be his grandpop?
> 
> Cheers, Doc



I imagine you sitting on a vertical cucumber, when you write such self contrived drivel at a meek attempt to sound witty.

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## padamchen

@django

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=h-k2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=siege+of+kahun&source=bl&ots=KbRZ2Dipl_&sig=J7quQyzCoQV2a9S0ijGzLKE2Vz8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKxsLXqKnXAhXFbiYKHcCHA_0Q6AEIRTAJ#v=onepage&q=siege of kahun&f=false

Brilliant.

Kahun Road, Pune Camp ...






Cheers, Doc

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## django

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> Russland comes from Rishi
> Taj Mahal comes from Tejo Mahalaya
> Christianity comes from Krishna Neeti (Rules of Krishna)
> Vatican comes from Vatika (general House)
> 
> 
> I could go on and on
> 
> 
> BTW This is all crazy, and contributes heavily to the utter historical ignorance of the affluent upper middle class of India
> 
> 
> It is all down to PN Oak...Hindus have an incorrigible fondness for his utter gutter trash
> His son Nilkanth Oak seems to have garnered a sizeable following in the Indian Internet crowd


Totally concur and well said...very well said.Kudos sir



padamchen said:


> Bro I'm not a sanghi. But I am a Maratha. And what I'm telling you about the Marri is chronicled fact, with lineages and family trees. Not Bugtis. Or any of the other tribes.
> *The Marri are ours.*


Just like Atlantis, Aztecs, Mayans,,,,,,Indo-European civilizations, I am sure those claiming Saxena as Saxons have chronicled so-called lineages, it is sheer fairytale,,,,, have you even met a Marri??? They are Iranic looking folk, who have not an iota of Maratha about them, definitely not your quintessential Ganga folks and you are incorrect Bharatis are also claiming Bugtis and other Baloch tribes as Maratha, just do a google search.Kudos Doc
BTW doc I am not a Baloch, but the magnitude of this nonsense being perpetuated by Bharati nationalists compelled me to respond.Kudos once again

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## padamchen

Brahmarshi said:


> not a single answer of 16 question, again giving British/Mellech mambo-mambo who were outsiders for us.
> 
> my doubts are cleared.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I rather be Proud Dalit than self hating Muslim jat who have to invent illegitimate Fathers to hide his inferior background.
> 
> I dont care about personal insults, only losers do that when they run out of arguments and proofs.
> 
> i was just out because i dont want to get addicted to this forum. i crave Balanced lifestyle with equal time for all activities including forming, playing outside, going out with my friends and do pooja, learn history etc.
> 
> 
> how can we belive that Kshatriya claim of your people is real ? how your tribe is different from Rajput kshatriyas ?
> 
> it's pretty ironic that you claim Kshatriya origin as you are the one who frequently makes claims that Rajputs are not kshatriyas.
> 
> 
> 
> Vaidhs are considered Brahmins in North As Far as i know.
> 
> *Baidya*[1] or *Vaidya*[2] is a Hindu caste community of Bengal. The Baidyas have generally claimed Brahmin status,[3] but some have been associated with the Ambashtha caste or sub-caste.[4] In the pre-colonial era of Bengal, Baidyas were regarded as the highest Hindu castes along with Brahmins and Kayasthas.[1]
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidya
> 
> 
> 
> i *personally* believe based on my *own research* that Awans were Indo-Aryan inhabitants of Afghanistan before pasterns and other eastern iranic groups conquered it. if now whole afghanistan than KPK for sure.
> 
> or you guys can be some west asian tribe of even Iranic tribe that got desified when settled in extreme north west corner of Punjab. but as most of your tribesman are settled in Border region of Afghanistan, i personally believe you are Indo-Aryan Afghans who migrated to Punjab at some point in history. even pashtuns agree or believe that you guys are an Afghan tribe.
> 
> please tell us more about your ancestors.
> 
> 
> large number of Haryanvi Jats have Malik Gotra/surname.
> 
> 
> 
> you two are still fighting.
> 
> as an parsee with persian lineage do you accept those people who got balochified ?



One Khandiya Parsi (Indic mother mixed blood pall bearer) is more Persian than a village of Marri Baloch ....

Cheers, Doc

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## Joe Shearer

Brahmarshi said:


> not a single answer of 16 question, again giving British/Mellech mambo-mambo who were outsiders for us.
> 
> my doubts are cleared.



Do not judge, or you will be judged. Honestly speaking, can a good puja-offering Rajput of good family in India answer all these? I doubt it!



> I rather be Proud Dalit than self hating Muslim jat who have to invent illegitimate Fathers to hide his inferior background.
> 
> I dont care about personal insults, only losers do that when they run out of arguments and proofs.
> 
> i was just out because i dont want to get addicted to this forum. i crave Balanced lifestyle with equal time for all activities including forming, playing outside, going out with my friends and do pooja, learn history etc.



My personal advice - free of cost, and therefore all the more readily available to you to reject at will - is not to counter a religious or caste-based appellation with another, but to prove yourself.

The decision is yours.



> how can we belive that Kshatriya claim of your people is real ? how your tribe is different from Rajput kshatriyas ?



Both this and the next question have more to do with ethnography than we wish to admit.

Many tribes and fighting groups were overwhelmed by iron-weapon wielding tribes and groups from the north-west, gradually working their way down the Ganges Valley from around 1300 BC to 800 BC (both dates to be read as very tentative approximations). These tribes and fighting groups could not be given Kshatriya status; in fact, they had to be removed as far as possible from any possibility of taking power and ruling; their past background as soldiers made them dangerous rivals for the similar positions in society among the incoming population. For that reason, they were debased and put down as low as the lowest. A Bengali nursery rhyme for very small children has the words

Aga dom baga dom ghora dom shaaje

The vanguard, the tiger warriors, the cavalry move on parade

Doms were originally troopers, and were pushed down as far as was possible, made into handlers of the dead, a position so terrifying to the ordinary citizen that it was guaranteed that they would be despised and feared, and never allowed to re-enter society, so never pose a threat to the new ruling classes.



> it's pretty ironic that you claim Kshatriya origin as you are the one who frequently makes claims that Rajputs are not kshatriyas.



There is no contradiction. One set, the Rajputs, were tribals elevated to a prominent position in Hindu hierarchy, the other set, the tribals and the professional warriors of old days, were debased and formed the shudra element, but remembrance of their older status made people refer to them as 'kshatriya' of some sort.



> Vaidhs are considered Brahmins in North As Far as i know.
> 
> *Baidya*[1] or *Vaidya*[2] is a Hindu caste community of Bengal. The Baidyas have generally claimed Brahmin status,[3] but some have been associated with the Ambashtha caste or sub-caste.[4] In the pre-colonial era of Bengal, Baidyas were regarded as the highest Hindu castes along with Brahmins and Kayasthas.[1]
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidya



Yes, they are claimed as Brahmins, but we don't wish to use these sorts of things. There are several origin myths; one is of the debasement of Brahmin physicians because they went into the houses of all, to treat the sick. The other is of mixed caste descendants, giving us the Ambastha sub-caste.



> i *personally* believe based on my *own research* that Awans were Indo-Aryan inhabitants of Afghanistan before pasterns and other eastern iranic groups conquered it. if now whole afghanistan than KPK for sure.
> 
> or you guys can be some west asian tribe of even Iranic tribe that got desified when settled in extreme north west corner of Punjab. but as most of your tribesman are settled in Border region of Afghanistan, i personally believe you are Indo-Aryan Afghans who migrated to Punjab at some point in history. even pashtuns agree or believe that you guys are an Afghan tribe.
> 
> please tell us more about your ancestors.
> 
> 
> large number of Haryanvi Jats have Malik Gotra/surname.
> 
> 
> 
> you two are still fighting.
> 
> as an parsee with persian lineage do you accept those people who got balochified ?

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## Brahmarshi

Joe Shearer said:


> Do not judge, or you will be judged. Honestly speaking, can a good puja-offering Rajput of good family in India answer all these? I doubt it!



yep, you have no idea joe how much these info meters to Real Rajputs of Rajatshan, Gujarat, Malwa and UP. they have specific lineage of pandits and Brahmins. (Rajgor pesents for entire clan ,Rajguru and Rajpurohit in case of Royal family) to write their family history and verify and prove their lineages.



> My personal advice - free of cost, and therefore all the more readily available to you to reject at will - is not to counter a religious or caste-based appellation with another, but to prove yourself.
> 
> The decision is yours.



i can prove my ancestry and my lieage. take my parikhs if you (or anybody else) want to verify my claims. just my photo i uploaded here is enough to verify my claim. 





> Both this and the next question have more to do with ethnography than we wish to admit.
> 
> *Many tribes and fighting groups were overwhelmed by iron-weapon wielding tribes and groups from the north-west, gradually working their way down the Ganges Valley* from around 1300 BC to 800 BC (both dates to be read as very tentative approximations). These tribes and fighting groups could not be given Kshatriya status; in fact, they had to be removed as far as possible from any possibility of taking power and ruling; their past background as soldiers made them dangerous rivals for the similar positions in society among the incoming population. For that reason, they were debased and put down as low as the lowest. A Bengali nursery rhyme for very small children has the words



agreed, pathan colonies all over Up and bihar is latest example of migration pattern you mentioned above.




> Yes, they are claimed as Brahmins, but we don't wish to use these sorts of things. There are several origin myths; one is of the debasement of Brahmin physicians because they went into the houses of all, to treat the sick. The other is of mixed caste descendants, giving us the Ambastha sub-caste.



in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Rajasthan Baidh/Vaidh are considered 100% Brahmins so sir joe i have no idea why Bengali Baidh dont consider themselves brahmins.



padamchen said:


> One Khandiya Parsi (Indic mother mixed blood pall bearer) is more Persian than a village of Marri Baloch ....
> 
> Cheers, Doc


nice.

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## django

padamchen said:


> Our Maratha regiment is the oldest regiment with painstakingly chronicled history. Right here in Poona. And we have a road named Kahun Road to honour those brave soldiers, fighting thousands of kilometres away from home.
> And fighting whom?
> *The Marri tribesmen!!!!!!! Now fully Muslim and Balochified* ....


Let us agree to disagree on this one, fables by maratha charlatans are not enough to convince me (*not nearly*) doc.Kudos doc

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## padamchen

Brahmarshi said:


> yep, you have no idea joe how much these info meters to Real Rajputs of Rajatshan, Gujarat, Malwa and UP. they have specific lineage of pandits and Brahmins. (Rajgor pesents for entire clan ,Rajguru and Rajpurohit in case of Royal family) to write their family history and verify and prove their lineages.
> 
> 
> 
> i can prove my ancestry and my lieage. take my parikhs if you (or anybody else) want to verify my claims. just my photo i uploaded here is enough to verify my claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> agreed, pathan colonies all over Up and bihar is latest example of migration pattern you mentioned above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Rajasthan Baidh/Vaidh are considered 100% Brahmins so sir joe i have no idea why Bengali Baidh dont consider themselves brahmins.
> 
> 
> nice.



I'll be honest. I'm a racialist. Not racist.

But when guys get racist -and their racism is based on false claims, something inside me snaps.

The results are less than pretty ....

Cheers, Doc

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## django

@Horus @Slav Defence This multi-id troll @Brahmarshi is lobbing personal insults at Pak members as he always does, please do take care of him.Kudos

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## padamchen

django said:


> Let us agree to disagree on this one, fables by maratha charlatans are not enough to convince me (*not nearly*) doc.Kudos doc



I'm not arguing with you bro. 

I'm neither Maratha nor Baloch by blood.

No horse in this except to set certain equations straight.

Cheers, Doc

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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> Totally concur and well said...very well said.Kudos sir
> 
> 
> Just like Atlantis, Aztecs, Mayans,,,,,,Indo-European civilizations, I am sure those claiming Saxena as Saxons have chronicled so-called lineages, it is sheer fairytale,,,,, have you even met a Marri??? They are Iranic looking folk, who have not an iota of Maratha about them, definitely not your quintessential Ganga folks and you are incorrect Bharatis are also claiming Bugtis and other Baloch tribes as Maratha, just do a google search.Kudos Doc
> BTW doc I am not a Baloch, but the magnitude of this nonsense being perpetuated by Bharati nationalists compelled me to respond.Kudos once again



LOL.

Doc, you Irani fiend, why the hell are you teasing @django?

@django, that lousy miserly Doc is pure-bred Irani. That's the zinger he's pulling on you. He's Marathi by domicile.

You guys....ROTFL.



Brahmarshi said:


> yep, you have no idea joe how much these info meters to Real Rajputs of Rajatshan, Gujarat, Malwa and UP. they have specific lineage of pandits and Brahmins. (Rajgor pesents for entire clan ,Rajguru and Rajpurohit in case of Royal family) to write their family history and verify and prove their lineages.
> 
> i can prove my ancestry and my lieage. take my parikhs if you (or anybody else) want to verify my claims. just my photo i uploaded here is enough to verify my claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> agreed, pathan colonies all over Up and bihar is latest example of migration pattern you mentioned above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A good analogy, but about two thousand years apart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Rajasthan Baidh/Vaidh are considered 100% Brahmins so sir joe i have no idea why Bengali Baidh dont consider themselves brahmins.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't really matter. We aren't given the sacred thread in proper form (most of us are initiated just the day before our marriage, if we marry by Hindu rites), we aren't given the Gayatri (I was so irritated that I recited it to the priest myself, and got a pasty, sheepish grin in return), and we have our ceremonies for nine days for the departed. Incidentally, our family records at Puri are kept by the Rajguru of the Puri Maharaja; the last time we met them, he recited our genealogy back twenty five generations. It is possible that earlier information is lost because of Kala Pahar's massacres.
> 
> I haven't been to Gaya yet, where also Baidya families' records are kept, and a visit is overdue, for sentiments' sakes, although both my parents forbade these rites explicitly, for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nice.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

lastofthepatriots said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Can you give information regarding your tribe?
> 
> Is what the fire hopper saying true?


We are a sub branch of Rind tribe.. and are divided into further sub branches...

*Marri Tribesmen from Kohlu (Marri Stronghold)*

























*marathi from india:















Need i say more? *
some =-=--00000=== may want to relate 2 us through their paternal lineage ... DNA tests are available ..



django said:


> Let us agree to disagree on this one, fables by maratha charlatans are not enough to convince me (*not nearly*) doc.Kudos doc


Marri,Bugti,Mengal:

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## Kabira

Marathis Kashtriyas are short and more dravidian looking then even christians. I don't see any baloch connection.

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## django

Joe Shearer said:


> LOL.
> 
> Doc, you Irani fiend, why the hell are you teasing @django?
> 
> @django, that lousy miserly Doc is pure-bred Irani. That's the zinger he's pulling on you. *He's Marathi by domicile.*
> 
> You guys....ROTFL.


I am aware that Doc is Parsi who has a tongue with extended cheeks.Kudos Joe

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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> I am aware that Doc is Parsi who has a tongue with extended cheeks.Kudos Joe



Look above your last post and see how many dummies he has sold (note for volatile green bhakts: selling the dummy is a rugby manoeuvre). Including one manoeuvre where he egged on someone to put up pages and pages of pictures. 

Not to forget the plaintive one just above you.

Doc can be a savage at times.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nowaday bhangris are also claimin irani origins.. ironically iranians themselves make fun of em.. even on PDF..

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## django

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We are a sub branch of Rind tribe.. and are divided into further sub branches...
> 
> *Marri Tribesmen from Kohlu (Marri Stronghold)*
> 
> View attachment 435350
> View attachment 435351
> View attachment 435352
> View attachment 435353
> View attachment 435354
> View attachment 435355
> View attachment 435356
> 
> 
> *marathi from india:
> 
> View attachment 435361
> View attachment 435362
> View attachment 435363
> View attachment 435364
> 
> 
> Need i say more? *
> some =-=--00000=== may want to relate 2 us through their paternal lineage ... DNA tests are available ..
> 
> 
> Marri,Bugti,Mengal:
> 
> View attachment 435357





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We are a sub branch of Rind tribe.. and are divided into further sub branches...
> 
> *Marri Tribesmen from Kohlu (Marri Stronghold)*
> 
> View attachment 435350
> View attachment 435351
> View attachment 435352
> View attachment 435353
> View attachment 435354
> View attachment 435355
> View attachment 435356
> 
> 
> *marathi from india:
> 
> View attachment 435361
> View attachment 435362
> View attachment 435363
> View attachment 435364
> 
> 
> Need i say more? *
> some =-=--00000=== may want to relate 2 us through their paternal lineage ... DNA tests are available ..
> 
> 
> Marri,Bugti,Mengal:
> 
> View attachment 435357


These Baloch folks would not look out of place across the Durand line, enough said, as for the Maratha they look like they have far more in common with someone from Dhaka.Kudos



Joe Shearer said:


> Look above your last post and see how many dummies he has sold (note for volatile green bhakts: selling the dummy is a rugby manoeuvre). Including one manoeuvre where he egged on someone to put up pages and pages of pictures.
> 
> Not to forget the plaintive one just above you.
> 
> Doc can be a savage at times.


I feel folk feel that at times they are compelled to set the picture straight so as to speak, perhaps some Marathi who was brisking through this thread came across Docs post and them having never met a Baloch , may well think that their is a connection between Marathis and Balochis, I think "mean green machine" was aiming at those folks.Kudos Joe......Indeed Doc can troll with the best of em.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> These Baloch folks would not look out of place across the Durand line, enough said, as for the Maratha they look like they have far more in common with someone from Dhaka.Kudos
> 
> 
> I feel folk feel that at times they are compelled to set the picture straight so as to speak, perhaps some Marathi who was brisking through this thread came across Docs post and them having never met a Baloch , may well think that their is a connection between Marathis and Balochis, I think "mean green machine" was aiming at those folks.Kudos Joe......Indeed Doc can troll with the best of em.


Baloch live in Pak,Iran,Afghanistan and Gulf... and even in Africa (settlers).

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## django

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Baloch live in Pak,Iran,Afghanistan and Gulf... and even in Africa (settlers).


My brother met some in Kenya.Kudos

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## friendly_troll96

lastofthepatriots said:


> I imagine you sitting on a vertical cucumber, when you write such self contrived drivel at a meek attempt to sound witty.

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## Joe Shearer

django said:


> These Baloch folks would not look out of place across the Durand line, enough said, as for the Maratha they look like they have far more in common with someone from Dhaka.Kudos
> 
> 
> I feel folk feel that at times they are compelled to set the picture straight so as to speak, perhaps some Marathi who was brisking through this thread came across Docs post and them having never met a Baloch , may well think that their is a connection between Marathis and Balochis, I think "mean green machine" was aiming at those folks.Kudos Joe......Indeed Doc can troll with the best of em.



LOL. The possibilities are humongous.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

django said:


> My brother met some in Kenya.Kudos


Soldiers ... who served Omani sultanate were sent to Kenya... formed a community in Mombasa... and built the first Mosque there...

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## friendly_troll96

padamchen said:


> Bro I'm not a sanghi. But I am a Maratha. And what I'm telling you about the Marri is chronicled fact, with lineages and family trees. Not Bugtis. Or any of the other tribes.
> 
> The Marri are ours.
> 
> It was delicious irony that later on through the sands of time, brother fought brother at the fort of Kahun.
> 
> Our Maratha regiment is the oldest regiment with painstakingly chronicled history. Right here in Poona. And we have a road named Kahun Road to honour those brave soldiers, fighting thousands of kilometres away from home.
> 
> And fighting whom?
> 
> The Marri tribesmen!!!!!!! Now fully Muslim and Balochified ....
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Marri:





Maratha:









-

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## Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8

Marath*I* ---------------All inhabitants of the Huge State of Maharashtra who speak the Marathi Language
Marath*A**-------------*specific clan or caste who can trace their lineage to the soldiers of Maratha Empire 
Shinde,Scindia,Deshmukh,Sardesai,Bhonsle etc

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## friendly_troll96

Juggernaut_is_here said:


> Marath*I* ---------------All inhabitants of the Huge State of Maharashtra who speak the Marathi Language
> Marath*A**-------------*specific clan or caste who can trace their lineage to the soldiers of Maratha Empire
> Shinde,Scindia,Deshmukh,Sardesai etc


That's very simple. People here shouldn't be needing a dictionary.

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## Jaanbaz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We are a sub branch of Rind tribe.. and are divided into further sub branches...
> 
> *Marri Tribesmen from Kohlu (Marri Stronghold)*
> 
> View attachment 435350
> View attachment 435351
> View attachment 435352
> View attachment 435353
> View attachment 435354
> View attachment 435355
> View attachment 435356
> 
> 
> *marathi from india:
> 
> View attachment 435361
> View attachment 435362
> View attachment 435363
> View attachment 435364
> 
> 
> Need i say more? *
> some =-=--00000=== may want to relate 2 us through their paternal lineage ... DNA tests are available ..
> 
> 
> Marri,Bugti,Mengal:
> 
> View attachment 435357



Why do you even reply to this Gujarati babu? Doc thinks he is some sort of pure Aryan breed but he looks like your typical Gujarati babu.

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## Pakistani E

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There are hardly any tribes in this world who have managed to maintain a lineage spanning thousands of years. Almost every ethno-racial group has been genetically influenced by another, it was historically crucial for civilizational evolution and development. Just look at the various indigenous peoples of today, such as the Sentinelese and the Amazonians and you will realize how crucial 'mixing' was.
> 
> After the decline and collapse of IVC, it was various mass-migrations into the Indus Basin that rekindled the flame of civilization in the Indus region once again. It was during their era, that we were most likely introduced our "tribal/baradari system", hence why most of our tribes today can trace their line back to these migrations.
> 
> However there is no doubt, that our blood is considerably or mostly indigenous and we can proudly say that we are of dual ancestry and "the best of both worlds".



I understand the point you are making and I certainly don't believe in purity of ethnic groups as that's bs. What I was saying was this zeal to label every single Punjabi tribe as Rajput or Jatt or mix of one or the another. As if no other people have settled here during those mass-migrations.

I am not saying this because I am ashamed or disrespect Rajputs or Jatts. Honestly, I respect these folks as my brothers and taking some sort of personal delight in claiming another origin just for the sake of it is not my cup of tea. But I think it is a simplification to give these two identities only for all Punjabi tribes. There is a significant number of Awans in KPK, where a PHD student recently carried out some DNA and morphological analysis, a part of which I posted in a separate thread few weeks back. In it, the Awans of Mansehra and Abbotabad clustered with Swatis, Tanolis and even matched with Wakhis and Khos. Now I am not sure what the results would be for Punjabi Awans, but I am assuming there will be relations as I also have relatives in Hazara area even though my branch is settled in the Salt Range.

More studies need to be done on Pakistani people I think. Maybe some day our government would wake up and be serious about this as well.

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## Brahmarshi

padamchen said:


> I'll be honest. I'm a racialist. Not racist.
> 
> But when guys get racist -and their racism is based on false claims, something inside me snaps.
> 
> The results are less than pretty ....
> 
> Cheers, Doc



What's different between those two terms ? 

I am not racist doc, i just want to preserve what my ancestors gave me and told me to preserve it with any cost.

I love and respect everyone Equally but i Just my Children and my people to look like me.

You know what happened to Indo-Iranics of Central Asia when Mongols AND turks conquered it doc.

I love the way you trigger your long lost Maratha brother.  dont worrt, one day he will remember his roots as we say in Hindi.

सुबह का भूला शाम को ज़रूर लौट आता हैं ।
1 lyk = 1 Respect

Regards

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## qamar1990

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Sunar, Lohar, Julaha, Tarkhan, Nai Hajjam, darzi, teli, Qasaab, dhobi, mirasi, Chura/khakroob are profession more than tribes


yes they are... but they have become tribes now becuase no body mixes with them... how ever 
musalis/ churas are not a profession and their facial features are also different from all other kammis and zamindars so they have a different origin i think... 
just to make it clear i dont support any of this caste bs and kammi vs zamindar ect...

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## qamar1990

lastofthepatriots said:


> Not interested in Kamboj. Show more results of Arains please.


kamboj and arains are one


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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


> kamboj and arains are one


Shut up.

Arain is Arain.

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## Joe Shearer

Jaanbaz said:


> Why do you even reply to this Gujarati babu? Doc thinks he is some sort of pure Aryan breed but he looks like your typical Gujarati babu.



He's a Parsi, and that's as pure an Aryan-speaker as you can get. There is nothing called the Aryan breed, btw, unless you are an active member of the Schutz Staffel. And I don't know how you know what he looks like.


@Jaanbaz - please note the edits.

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## padamchen

Brahmarshi said:


> What's different between those two terms ?
> 
> I am not racist doc, i just want to preserve what my ancestors gave me and told me to preserve it with any cost.
> 
> I love and respect everyone Equally but i Just my Children and my people to look like me.
> 
> You know what happened to Indo-Iranics of Central Asia when Mongols AND turks conquered it doc.
> 
> I love the way you trigger your long lost Maratha brother.  dont worrt, one day he will remember his roots as we say in Hindi.
> 
> सुबह का भूला शाम को ज़रूर लौट आता हैं ।
> 1 lyk = 1 Respect
> 
> Regards



A racialist is one who is immensely proud about his racial legacy and roots. But in a constructive way. Without malevolence. Or hate. Or insecurity.

A racist is foul hateful insecure person living in a ghetto complex paranoid mentality about those different than him and wishes them harm to preserve his existence and rise and stay above.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. The person in question is no brother of mine. Blood or otherwise. He's a punk with a rich dad, whose yet to see life and do something on his own.

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## Joe Shearer

qamar1990 said:


> yes they are... but they have become tribes now becuase no body mixes with them... how ever
> musalis/ churas are not a profession and their facial features are also different from all other kammis and zamindars so they have a different origin i think...
> just to make it clear i dont support any of this caste bs and kammi vs zamindar ect...



Your last line is the important one.

If this is happening in Pakistan, be careful, be very careful. It is obvious that this is how the caste system originated (in part; the other part was the social engineering carried out to debase the original inhabitants: personal opinion).



qamar1990 said:


> kamboj and arains are one



Kamboj are a VERY ancient tribe, mentioned in the Puranas. The Parama Kamboj may have actually been speakers of Indo-Aryan north of the Hindu Kush. It's an amazing survival into the modern age from the proto-historic. Others mentioned along with them are the Bactrians, the Uttara Madra (the Madra, probably a cognate tribe, were further south, this side of the Hindu Kush) and the Uttara Kuru (everyone knows who the Kuru are; the Rajputs even claim descent from them, with doubtful authenticity). 

Someone asked me (I think on this thread, but not sure) if any of the ancient Kshatriyas survived. If Kamboj lived on the Indian side of the Radcliffe Line (I don't think there are any at all), I would have pointed at them. 

The Kamboja and some other allies of theirs from the extreme north fought ferociously during the battle and acquired a fearful reputation.

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## Joe Shearer

Joe Shearer said:


> Your last line is the important one.
> 
> If this is happening in Pakistan, be careful, be very careful. It is obvious that this is how the caste system originated (in part; the other part was the social engineering carried out to debase the original inhabitants: personal opinion).
> 
> 
> 
> Kamboj are a VERY ancient tribe, mentioned in the Puranas. The Parama Kamboj may have actually been speakers of Indo-Aryan north of the Hindu Kush. It's an amazing survival into the modern age from the proto-historic. Others mentioned along with them are the Bactrians, the Uttara Madra (the Madra, probably a cognate tribe, were further south, this side of the Hindu Kush) and the Uttara Kuru (everyone knows who the Kuru are; the Rajputs even claim descent from them, with doubtful authenticity).
> 
> Someone asked me (I think on this thread, but not sure) if any of the ancient Kshatriyas survived. If Kamboj lived on the Indian side of the Radcliffe Line (I don't think there are any at all), I would have pointed at them.
> 
> The Kamboja and some other allies of theirs from the extreme north fought ferociously during the battle and acquired a fearful reputation.



I just got a very annoyed personal mail, saying that there were indeed Kambojas in India, and that their Pakistani counterparts call themselves Kamboh.

@qamar1990 

Is this correct? Is the name Kamboh?


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## lastofthepatriots

Joe Shearer said:


> I just got a very annoyed personal mail, saying that there were indeed Kambojas in India, and that their Pakistani counterparts call themselves Kamboh.
> 
> @qamar1990
> 
> Is this correct? Is the name Kamboh?



Kamboh is what they're called in Punjab as far as I know. We have a member here. His name is @Kambojaric


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## Joe Shearer

lastofthepatriots said:


> Kamboh is what they're called in Punjab as far as I know. We have a member here. His name is @Kambojaric



Amazing! 

Imagine how they kept their identity intact through possibly 3,500 years! I'm gobsmacked!!

@Kambojaric

Sir, are you from the group called Kamboh? I seem to remember that you had commented about this ethnicity sometime during the last one month or so?

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## Advocate Pakistan

dreamer4eva said:


> Good to know a little bit about Jatt history. I always thought we were offshoots of Rajputs with whom we share so many traits also. Do Pakistani/Muslim Jatts visit Jatheras (our elders, we remember them on yearly basis) also?


According to one of my village elder (RIP)
Jatts, Rajputs and Gujjars can be considered three sons of the same father. The ones that left military for agriculture and herding for a living were called Jatts and Gujjars respectively. So, probably as royal families expanded, every one couldn't be adjusted around.

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## Brahmarshi

Kabira said:


> Marathis Kashtriyas are short and more dravidian looking then even christians. I don't see any baloch connection.


Marathas are not kshatriyas.



Joe Shearer said:


> Your last line is the important one.
> 
> If this is happening in Pakistan, be careful, be very careful. It is obvious that this is how the caste system originated (in part; the other part was the social engineering carried out to debase the original inhabitants: personal opinion).
> 
> 
> 
> Kamboj are a VERY ancient tribe, mentioned in the Puranas. The Parama Kamboj may have actually been speakers of Indo-Aryan north of the Hindu Kush. It's an amazing survival into the modern age from the proto-historic. Others mentioned along with them are the Bactrians, the Uttara Madra (the Madra, probably a cognate tribe, were further south, this side of the Hindu Kush) and the Uttara Kuru (everyone knows who the Kuru are; the Rajputs even claim descent from them, with doubtful authenticity).
> 
> Someone asked me (I think on this thread, but not sure) if any of the ancient Kshatriyas survived. If Kamboj lived on the Indian side of the Radcliffe Line (I don't think there are any at all), I would have pointed at them.
> 
> The Kamboja and some other allies of theirs from the extreme north fought ferociously during the battle and acquired a fearful reputation.



there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.

I am divided on their classification in Varna as they are both Indic and Iranic at same time, I hve no doupt that majority of kambojas were kshatriyas in Vedic period as well. if Rajputs can be classified as Kshatriyas than i believe an ancient Iranic tribe like Kabojas should be classified as Kshatriyas as well.



Advocate Pakistan said:


> According to one of my village elder (RIP)
> Jatts, Rajputs and Gujjars can be considered three sons of the same father. The ones that left military for agriculture and herding for a living were called Jatts and Gujjars respectively. So, probably as royal families expanded, every one couldn't be adjusted around.



i respectfully disagree. royals and nobles make only tiny percentage of while population. fore example Brahmins are 2.5% of whole India and if we only count north Indian Brahmins they % surely drops to 1.5%.

even if we count Real Rajputs, in Rajasthan Rajputs are only 10% of total population than how can we accept that whole region or at least 60
% to 80% of it is populated by royal/noble clans ?


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## Kabira

Brahmarshi said:


> Marathas are not kshatriyas.



Yes they are kiddo.


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## Kambojaric

Joe Shearer said:


> Amazing!
> 
> Imagine how they kept their identity intact through possibly 3,500 years! I'm gobsmacked!!
> 
> @Kambojaric
> 
> Sir, are you from the group called Kamboh? I seem to remember that you had commented about this ethnicity sometime during the last one month or so?



I am a Kamboh indeed. Our non-Muslim kin use the term Kamboj. How we have kept our identity intact, I have no idea to be honest. I have studied in a basic sense the Kamboja/Parama Kamboja history, and yet subsequent to the move down to Central/Eastern Punjab we seem to disappear from the history books, until we reemerge as Kamboj/Kamboh during the medieval period. There is talk of one "Hasan Mahmudi Kamboh" who was a wazir and general in the army of Mahmud Ghaznavi, but this may very well be a fictionalised character created by the Kamboh Nawab family of Meerut to amplify their noble lineage, as was often the case during this era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Khair_Andesh_Khan is one famous individual of this line).
The peak of Muslim Kambohs at least came during Mughal rule, when the tribe seems to have been elevated to nobility status, which is a rarity amongst Punjabi tribes. Abū al-Faz̤l in the Ain-e-Akbari writes that

"during the reigns of Akbar and Jahangir, it was certainly a distinction to belong to this tribe (Kamboh), as will be seen just now ... (goes on to explain the various notable Kamboh figures during this period)"
page 399, Ain-e-Akbari (translated by H.Blochman).

These notable figures include Shahbaz Khan Kamboh and Sheikh Gadai Kamboh. However during the Sultunate period, Kambohs had become prominent already. Sheikh Jamali Kamboh and Sama'uddin Kamboh (of Multan) come to mind now.

In the modern era one famous Muslim Kamboh is Nawab Waqar ul Mulk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Waqar-ul-Mulk_Kamboh) who was a founding father of the Muslim League, and a famous Sikh Kamboj is Udham Singh, the assassin of Michael O'Dwyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh)

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## Brahmarshi

Kabira said:


> Yes they are kiddo.


They are not cutie.


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## Kabira

Brahmarshi said:


> What's different between those two terms ?
> 
> I am not racist doc, i just want to preserve what my ancestors gave me and told me to preserve it with any cost.
> 
> I love and respect everyone Equally but i Just my Children and my people to look like me.
> 
> You know what happened to Indo-Iranics of Central Asia when Mongols AND turks conquered it doc.
> 
> I love the way you trigger your long lost Maratha brother.  dont worrt, one day he will remember his roots as we say in Hindi.
> 
> सुबह का भूला शाम को ज़रूर लौट आता हैं ।
> 1 lyk = 1 Respect
> 
> Regards



I want to preserve my brahmin aryan race lol

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## Joe Shearer

Brahmarshi said:


> Marathas are not kshatriyas.
> 
> there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.
> 
> I am divided on their classification in Varna as they are both Indic and Iranic at same time, I hve no doupt that majority of kambojas were kshatriyas in Vedic period as well. if Rajputs can be classified as Kshatriyas than i believe an ancient Iranic tribe like Kabojas should be classified as Kshatriyas as well.



I feel like an idiot.



















> i respectfully disagree. royals and nobles make only tiny percentage of while population. fore example Brahmins are 2.5% of whole India and if we only count north Indian Brahmins they % surely drops to 1.5%.
> 
> even if we count Real Rajputs, in Rajasthan Rajputs are only 10% of total population than how can we accept that whole region or at least 60
> % to 80% of it is populated by royal/noble clans ?



Except for Jammu, over most of India, the percentage of Brahmins is about 2%. In Jammu, it is about 10%, the highest anywhere in India.

In the South, it is even lower than 2%.



Kambojaric said:


> I am a Kamboh indeed. Our non-Muslim kin use the term Kamboj. How we have kept our identity intact, I have no idea to be honest. I have studied in a basic sense the Kamboja/Parama Kamboja history, and yet subsequent to the move down to Central/Eastern Punjab we seem to disappear from the history books, until we reemerge as Kamboj/Kamboh during the medieval period. There is talk of one "Hasan Mahmudi Kamboh" who was a wazir and general in the army of Mahmud Ghaznavi, but this may very well be a fictionalised character created by the Kamboh Nawab family of Meerut to amplify their noble lineage, as was often the case during this era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Khair_Andesh_Khan is one famous individual of this line).
> The peak of Muslim Kambohs at least came during Mughal rule, when the tribe seems to have been elevated to nobility status, which is a rarity amongst Punjabi tribes. Abū al-Faz̤l in the Ain-e-Akbari writes that
> 
> "during the reigns of Akbar and Jahangir, it was certainly a distinction to belong to this tribe (Kamboh), as will be seen just now ... (goes on to explain the various notable Kamboh figures during this period)"
> page 399, Ain-e-Akbari (translated by H.Blochman).
> 
> These notable figures include Shahbaz Khan Kamboh and Sheikh Gadai Kamboh. However during the Sultunate period, Kambohs had become prominent already. Sheikh Jamali Kamboh and Sama'uddin Kamboh (of Multan) come to mind now.
> 
> In the modern era one famous Muslim Kamboh is Nawab Waqar ul Mulk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Waqar-ul-Mulk_Kamboh) who was a founding father of the Muslim League, and a famous Sikh Kamboj is Udham Singh, the assassin of Michael O'Dwyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh)



Many, many thanks. 

A unique tribe (yes, I noted that disappearance and re-appearance, and suspect that a stronger familiarity with Sanskrit might throw further light on the matter).

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## Brahmarshi

Kabira said:


> I want to preserve my brahmin aryan race lol


Meh, try hard next time.

Btw people in second pic are not even Brahmins.


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## Kambojaric

Joe Shearer said:


> I feel like an idiot.
> 
> View attachment 435531
> View attachment 435531
> View attachment 435531
> View attachment 435531
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Jammu, over most of India, the percentage of Brahmins is about 2%. In Jammu, it is about 10%, the highest anywhere in India.
> 
> In the South, it is even lower than 2%.
> 
> 
> 
> Many, many thanks.
> 
> A unique tribe (yes, I noted that disappearance and re-appearance, and suspect that a stronger familiarity with Sanskrit might throw further light on the matter).



No problem Joe. My theory on the disappearance is that following the collapse of the Mauryas the wider Indus region underwent centuries of turmoil i.e. the Scythian, Parthian, Hunnic invasions and written scriptures will as a consequence become more scarce? As far as I know we rely more on archaeology than on studying historical documents, in order to understand this time period.

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## Joe Shearer

Kambojaric said:


> No problem Joe. My theory on the disappearance is that following the collapse of the Mauryas the wider Indus region underwent centuries of turmoil i.e. the Scythian, Parthian, Hunnic invasions and written scriptures will as a consequence become more scarce? As far as I know we rely more on archaeology than on studying historical documents, in order to understand this time period.



Epigraphy.

Most of our knowledge of these ill-documented times is from epigraphy.

You are absolutely right in your arguments. Did you read history in college?

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Brahmarshi said:


> there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.


Where did you get the source for their population.

Also, Kambojas are not a part of the Jatts 

@Joe Shearer This guy hardly knows what he is talking about, I recommend you regard his information with caution.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Joe Shearer said:


> I just got a very annoyed personal mail, saying that there were indeed Kambojas in India, and that their Pakistani counterparts call themselves Kamboh.
> 
> @qamar1990
> 
> Is this correct? Is the name Kamboh?


Kambojas were an Iranic people that settled in Arachosia, a loosely defined region that most likely extended from Arghandabad river in Afghanistan to the Indus river in Pakistan. There were many tribes of the Kambojas that were recorded and detailed by the Greeks.

They began to trickle into Punjab, but we do not know exactly when. My personal theory is that it had to do with Alexander's invasion.

The Kambojas fiercely resisted Alexander in modern-day KPK and at many times fought to the last man and woman (who fought as well). After severe losses, many Kambojas destroyed their own cities and fled (most likely into Punjab); possibly as a scorched-earth tactic.

Some clans migrated as deep into Bengal, Nepal and Tibet and because of their military prowess, dominated the locals, setting up powerful dynasties, the most famous of which is the Kamboja-Pala dynasty of Bengal.

It is recorded in Mauryan edicts that the Kambojas enjoyed autonomy and that Ashoka had sent missionaries to convert them to Buddhism, a religion that most likely became dominant among the Kambojas before the arrival of Islam.

"Indian Kambojas" mostly 'dispute' links with the ancient Kambojas and claim themselves to be Rajputs instead. This can actually have great truth to it as the Kambojas rose to great prominence under the Mughals and many Rajputs and other tribes serving under Kamboh nobles most likely began to refer to themselves as Kambojas, similar to how some Rajput clans assimilated into the Gujjars during the Muslim invasions of Rajasthan.

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## Joe Shearer

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Where did you get the source for their population.
> 
> Also, Kambojas are not a part of the Jatts
> 
> @Joe Shearer This guy hardly knows what he is talking about, I recommend you regard his information with caution.



I know very well that Kambojas are not Jats, but I was happy to learn that there are still Kambojas in India. Just think what a fantastic thing it is (subject to the qualifications of @Kambojaric, of course, about the gap in historical record between 400 BC or so and 1100 AD).

@Brahmarshi makes us all uncomfortable with his occasional faux pas, but I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, of presuming to know more than he actually does, rather than actually misleading people.

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## Kambojaric

Brahmarshi said:


> Marathas are not kshatriyas.
> 
> 
> 
> there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.
> 
> I am divided on their classification in Varna as they are both Indic and Iranic at same time, I hve no doupt that majority of kambojas were kshatriyas in Vedic period as well. if Rajputs can be classified as Kshatriyas than i believe an ancient Iranic tribe like Kabojas should be classified as Kshatriyas as well.




I have never heard of Kamboh/Kamboj referring to themselves as Jatt. Occupational patterns can be noted. For example one side of my family are "Chaudhry" Kamboh owing to the fact that they used to own lands in Ferozpur prior to 47, whereas the other side are "Mian" Kamboh (city dwellers more inclined towards education).

You are right about the existence of both indic and iranic features however. For example I stumbled upon the Bhuridatta Jātaka (vol vi, 110) whilst doing research on the Kambojas in which it is stated

"Kita Patanga Uraga ca Bheka
Bantva Kimim Sujjhati Makkhika ca,
Ete hi dhamma anariyarupa
Kambojakanam vithatha bahunnan"

Those men are counted pure who only kill
Frogs, worms, bees, snakes or insects as they will
Those are your savage customs which I hate
Such as Kamboja hordes might emulate

Killing snakes, insects and other Xrafstar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xrafstar) is considered holy in the Zoroastrian faith, and the implication that Kamboja hordes engaged in this practise in a Buddhist text says something. However we also know that during other periods the Kambojas were integrated into the Hindu caste system as Kshatriyas. Generally speaking I simply see the Kambojas as an ancient elaboration of the Indus valley peoples in general. We share traits from both sides. We spoke a Prakrit but wrote it down in the Kharosthi script, had religious traits of Zoroastrianism but were also part of the wider caste system structure.



Joe Shearer said:


> Epigraphy.
> 
> Most of our knowledge of these ill-documented times is from epigraphy.
> 
> You are absolutely right in your arguments. Did you read history in college?



Unfortunately not. Just an avid fan of historical studies

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Kambojas were an Iranic people that settled in Arachosia, a loosely defined region that most likely extended from Arghandabad river in Afghanistan to the Indus river in Pakistan. There were many tribes of the Kambojas that were recorded and detailed by the Greeks.
> 
> They began to trickle into Punjab, but we do not know exactly when. My personal theory is that it had to do with Alexander's invasion.
> 
> The Kambojas fiercely resisted Alexander in modern-day KPK and at many times fought to the last man and woman (who fought as well). After severe losses, many Kambojas destroyed their own cities and fled (most likely into Punjab); possibly as a scorched-earth tactic.
> 
> Some clans migrated as deep into Bengal, Nepal and Tibet and because of their military prowess, dominated the locals, setting up powerful dynasties, the most famous of which is the Kamboja-Pala dynasty of Bengal.
> 
> It is recorded in Mauryan edicts that the Kambojas enjoyed autonomy and that Ashoka had sent missionaries to convert them to Buddhism, a religion that most likely became dominant among the Kambojas before the arrival of Islam.
> 
> "Indian Kambojas" mostly 'dispute' links with the ancient Kambojas and claim themselves to be Rajputs instead. This can actually have great truth to it as the Kambojas rose to great prominence under the Mughals and many Rajputs and other tribes serving under Kamboh nobles most likely began to refer to themselves as Kambojas, similar to how Rajput clans assimilated into the Gujjars.


I also read somewhere a very detailed report of how the Kambojas came into conflict with other tribes over the salt plains of Punjab and how they also colonised many areas in Sindh during the pre-Mughal era, but I cannot seem to find it anymore. Will post it once I find it.

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## django

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Where did you get the source for their population.
> 
> Also, Kambojas are not a part of the Jatts
> 
> @Joe Shearer This guy hardly knows what he is talking about, I recommend you regard his information with caution.


He (Brahamarshi) is a man from the Ghandara though not a ounce of evidence to support his obsession lol.Kudos

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## Joe Shearer

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Kambojas were an Iranic people that settled in Arachosia, a loosely defined region that most likely extended from Arghandabad river in Afghanistan to the Indus river in Pakistan. There were many tribes of the Kambojas that were recorded and detailed by the Greeks.
> 
> They began to trickle into Punjab, but we do not know exactly when. My personal theory is that it had to do with Alexander's invasion.
> 
> The Kambojas fiercely resisted Alexander in modern-day KPK and at many times fought to the last man and woman (who fought as well). After severe losses, many Kambojas destroyed their own cities and fled (most likely into Punjab); possibly as a scorched-earth tactic.
> 
> Some clans migrated as deep into Bengal, Nepal and Tibet and because of their military prowess, dominated the locals, setting up powerful dynasties, the most famous of which is the Kamboja-Pala dynasty of Bengal.
> 
> It is recorded in Mauryan edicts that the Kambojas enjoyed autonomy and that Ashoka had sent missionaries to convert them to Buddhism, a religion that most likely became dominant among the Kambojas before the arrival of Islam.
> 
> "Indian Kambojas" mostly 'dispute' links with the ancient Kambojas and claim themselves to be Rajputs instead. This can actually have great truth to it as the Kambojas rose to great prominence under the Mughals and many Rajputs and other tribes serving under Kamboh nobles most likely began to refer to themselves as Kambojas, similar to how Rajput clans assimilated into the Gujjars.



I am familiar with some parts of your very interesting note, except that in protohistory, the Parama Kamboja were further north, probably somewhere on the other side of the Hindu Kush; given the description of their horsemanship and their proximity to the Bahlika, the people from Balkh, Bactria, and that they were Aryan-speakers who had 'fallen away' and spoke strangely (meaning from the standard of Indo-Aryan that was spoken in what the priests defined as the correct style), I should have imagined that they were closer to what is today Tajikistan. 

I am inclined to think that their horsemanship, and their horses, in fact, were those that the other independent authority on Indian protohistory, the Chinese explorer, Zhang Qian, noticed and described as the 'bleeding horses' (a description often given even later to Ferghana horses). Ferghana, of course, lies within the present-day Tajikistan. 







Ferghana is in the top right hand corner, across the Pamirs, while Gandhara, with which many Pakistanis feel they can identify, is in the bottom right hand corner.

However, these are my personal meanderings; what I have written relates to the Parama Kamboja, not the Kamboja proper. The Kamboja are mentioned in Asokan pillars (@Kambojaric must have come across this), and are thought to have been on the left bank of the Kabul river; quite probable, considering the position of their cousins, the Parama Kamboja, and therefore their proximity to the Gandhara, the mother's brother for the Kaurava crown prince, Duryodhana, born to Gandhari, one reason why they fought for him rather than for the Pandavas)

Just to remind ourselves, the next geographical information that we have about this part of the world is the imperial province list, the relevant ones from Khorasan and trans-Indus India being:

Sattagydians, Gandharans, Dadicae, Aparytai;//Border marches; Sattagydia (sata godham, hundred cows, sometimes - in the sense of many - thousand cows; today, Sindh; Gandhara the Kabul region; Dadicae, the Dadi, rulers of the country that is now under the Kakars (although the Cambridge History thinks that they are the Dards; Aparytai, thought by some to refer to the Afridi. This is still pure speculation.
Caspians, Pausicae, Pantimathi, Daricae; //Do not belong to our discussion;
Bactrians and all neighbouring people as far as the Aegli;//Probably the common ancestors of the Tajik and of the Pushto;
Sacae, and the Caspians;//The Scythians, mainly
Parthians, Chorasmians, Sogdians and Arians;//The Parthians being irrelevant - too far west - and the Chorasmians (Khwarezmians) too; however, Middle Persian for Parthian was Pahlava, reminiscent of the companions of the Sakas when they swept into Arachosia and following which that province came to be known as Sakasthan - today, Seisthan;



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I also read somewhere a very detailed report of how the Kambojas came into conflict with other tribes over the salt plains of Punjab and how they also colonised many areas in Sindh during the pre-Mughal era, but I cannot seem to find it anymore. Will post it once I find it.



The first is VERY PROBABLE, the next, is a possibility, but needs to be inspected with caution.

They are considered, by some sources, to have been located on the left bank of the Kabul River as it debouched into the Indus, and so in an ideal position to have been making miserable people around the Salt Range.

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## Jaanbaz

Joe Shearer said:


> Try not to be an idiot if you can help it. He's a Parsi, and that's as pure an Aryan-speaker as you can get. There is nothing called the Aryan breed, btw, unless you are an active member of the Schutz Staffel. And I don't know how you know what he looks like.
> 
> I love young punks who know everything about everybody as soon as they have finished figuring out the keyboard.



I would have ignored him but when I read his bullshit about Maratha and Baloch that had me in stitches, anyway I was trying to tell Desertfighter to ignore the old Gujarati troll. Nothing to do with you my friend, I guess you must be buddies with him so you felt the need to defend him but he's a bit of a C@@t.

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## Joe Shearer

Jaanbaz said:


> I would have ignored him but when I read his bullshit about Maratha and Baloch that had me in stitches, anyway I was trying to tell Desertfighter to ignore the old Gujarati troll. Nothing to do with you my friend, I guess you must be buddies with him so you felt the need to defend him but he's a bit of a C@@t.



Oh, that's it, was it? I take back the bad words; yes, he's a close friend, and introduced me to @jbgt90.

He's a super-troll; I read him and blink with astonishment!

PS: @Jaanbaz I've edited my post; please check.


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## Jaanbaz

Joe Shearer said:


> Oh, that's it, was it? I take back the bad words; yes, he's a close friend, and introduced me to @jbgt90.
> 
> *He's a super-troll; I read him and blink with astonishment!*



You should follow in his footsteps.


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## padamchen

Joe Shearer said:


> Oh, that's it, was it? I take back the bad words; yes, he's a close friend, and introduced me to @jbgt90.
> 
> He's a super-troll; I read him and blink with astonishment!



Wtf man?!!!

Not even the modicum of respect for my 149 IQ (MENSA certified ...) and Ivy league education?

Sorrowed, Doc


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## Joe Shearer

Jaanbaz said:


> You should follow in his footsteps.



He's far above me. I can't help taking everything seriously.



padamchen said:


> Wtf man?!!!
> 
> Not even the modicum of respect for my 149 IQ (MENSA certified ...) and Ivy league education?
> 
> Sorrowed, Doc



Hey! I said that with vast respect!!

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## Proudpakistaniguy

@Kambojaric


There are a number of different traditions as to the origin of the Kamboh. Some Kamboh claim Afghan origin, others claim Arab origin, while others simply claim to be Muslim converts from the Hindu Kamboh caste.

• Those who claim Indian ancestry claim descent from Raja Sodakhsh of Kamboja, an ancient Indian kingdom. The Rajah was a descendent of the god Chandra Verman, and the Kambojas are referred to in the Mahabharata. They are said to have inhabited Afghanistan, which was known as Kamboja desa, or land of the Kamboh.

• Those who claim Afghan origin, claim to belong to the famous Kayani dynasty of ancient Iran. The word Kamboh is said to be a compound of the word Kai Ambo, after an ancestor. The descendents of this king were known as the Kamboh, and Ghazni in Afghanistan was a centre of their power.

• Those who claim Arab ancestry claim descent from Zubair ibn al-Awam, the first cousin of the Prophet Mohammad. According to this tradition, the original homeland of the Kamboh wasMultan and not Afghanistan.

It seems clear is that most Uttar Pradesh Kamboh have strong traditions of migrating from Punjab. Some groups, such as those of Bareilly claim that they were part of the army of Shahbaz Khan Kamboh, a general in the army of the Mughal Emperor Jehangir. He was asked to pacify a rebellion in Assam, and said to have come from Jalandhar in Punjab. Many in his army were Punjabi Kamboh, who instead of returning to Punjab settled in various locations in western Uttar Pradesh.

The exact circumstances of the Kamboh migration to Uttar Pradesh are unclear. However, towards the end of the Delhi Sultanate (1206–1526), we hear increasing references to the Kamboh as playing an important role in the politics. During the Lodhi and Moghul rule. Miyan Jumman Khan Kamboh was “Hajib-i-Khas” (Special Lord of Bed Chamber),Umar Khan Kamboh was Amir-i-Akhur (Minister of Cavalry department)[ and Miyan Ladan Khan Kamboh was an Imam and Royal Nadim of Sikandar Lodhi, Shaikh Itmad-ul-Malik Sambhal was Amir-i-Arz (Paymaster General) and then Prime Minister of Sher Shah Suri. Numerous other Kamboj are known to have occupied very key military and civil positions during Lodhi, Pashtun and the Moghul reign in India. Irfan Habib writes:

The Sayyids and the Kambohs among the Indian Muslims were specially favoured for high military and civil positions during Moghul rule”.
The Kambo, Indian Shaikhzadas and local Saiyid nobles rose to prominence during the period under review” (i.e. Lodi dynasty of Delhi).

According to the historian Muhammad Umar writes:

“The (Muslim) Kamboh distinguished themselves by their courage, generosity and high spirits. They were famous for their excellent manners and were particularly gifted with wisdom and nobility….In terms of social stratification, the Kambohs were counted among the Shaikhs…..Among the Indian Muslims, the Kambohs were regarded as the noblest of all. However, perhaps with a view to maintaining the purity of their descent, or because of pride of nobility, they confined their matrimonial relationships within their own groups and did not establish marriage connections with other Muslim groups including even the Saiyids and the Mughals. Some members of this clan like Shahbaz Khan Kamboh, Nawab Abu Muhammad Khan, Bahadur Khan and Nawab Khair Andesh Khan rose to high positions during the reign of Mughals”

*Hindu origin*

The tradition of a Hindu origin seems more prevalent among the Kamboh of Saharanpur District. According to tribal myths, they originally lived about Mathura and were Kshatriyas. When Parasu Rama was slaughtering the Kshatriyas, he found their ancestor Bhup Rae armed and ready resist. He, therefore, proposed slaying him; and on Bhup Rae saying that he was not a Kshatriya,Parasu Ram is said to have replied that he was demenour was that of a Kshatriyas. Bhup Rae at once objected that he was not qaim buu (of any fixed odour) at all and was saved. He was afterwards was known as Qaimbn,
which gradually got changed into Kamboh. This legend was recorded in the late 19th Century by the ethnologist William Crooke, at the time most Hindu and Sikh Kamboh were making claims to Kshatriya. What was clear was that both in Punjab, where the majority of Kambohs lived, and in western UP, they were seem by their neighbours as quasi-kshatriya.



Those who claim a Hindu origin, claim their conversion to Islam occurred during the early years of Islam in India, one of the groups of this clan embraced Islam at the instance of Shaikh Bahauddin Zakariya Suhrawardi (of Multan) and his son Shaikh Sadruddin. Their tradition refers to their migration from Multan to Saharanpur under during the rule of the Lodhi dynasty. It is interesting that Saharanpur District is also home to a large community of Hindu Kambohs. These Kamboh have largely remained affiliated with agriculture. In this district, they are believed to be one of sub caste of Jatts. This region may be the site of their earliest settlement in Uttar Pradesh.



*Arab origin*

The tradition of an Arab origin is more common among the Kamboh of Etah and Bareilly districts. They generally now prefer to be known as Zubairi. Zubairi literally means in Arabic a descendant of Zubair, and the Zubairi Kamboh claim descent Zubair ibn al-Awam. Zubair ibn al-Awam was the first cousin of the Prophet but was also one of his closest companions. He was known for his valor and bravery and is remembered as the conqueror of Egypt in 19 AH, and embraced martyrdom in 36 AH. Zubair was laid to rest in Basra, near the borders of Kuwait and Iraq. This town was named as Al-Zubair. Zubair had twelve sons and nine daughters. Three of his famous sons were Abdullah, Musab and Urwah. Abdullah was a Muslim caliph at Makkah, Musab was the governor of Kufa in 73 AH and Urwa was the first Muslim historian.

After almost fifty years of the conquest of Sindh by Muhammad Bin Qasim, Zuberis started migrating from Makkah and Medina towards Sindh. Most of them settled at place near modern Dadu. By the end of 4th century AH, Zuberis started migrating from Sindh to Multan. During 14th century AD, portion of Zuberi clan migrated to Delhi. Sheikh Samauddin Zuberi was a famous Sufi who led this migration. Afterwards Zuberi family flourished in Lahore, Panipat, Delhi and Sambhal. During the regime of Mughal Emperor Akbar, Zuberis also settled in Meerut.

*Kamboh of Marehra, Etah District*

The Kambohs of Marehra in Etah District claim to be Arab descent, and often call themselves Zubairi. There ancestor was Shaikh
Khwajah Imad-ud-din Muhammad , a native of Multan, who was a courtier of the first Mughal Emperor Babur (20 April 1526 – 26 December 1530). Babur appointed him amil (administrator) of Marehra around 1527.In 1542, during the reign of Sher Shah, the Khwaja’s two sons were appointed to the offices of chaudary and kanunjo of the pargana (lowest administrative unit), when theses post were created. These posts remained with the descendants of the original holders until the occupation of country by the British, when the office of was abolished.The Mughal Emperor Akbar conferred the proprietary rights on Marehra to Fateh Khan and Umar Khan, grandsons of the Khwaja. The town was divided into eleven muhallas or wards, the most noteworthy of which was the Kamboh muhalla.

*Kamboh of Meerut District*

The Muslim Kambohs of Meerut, in Uttar Pradesh have a tradition that they belonged to a distinguished Kamboh family of Ghazni which had come to India in early eleventh century in the invading army of Sulatn Mahmud of Ghazni (rule: 997 AD – 1030 AD). According to their own accounts the name “Kamboh” of the family is derived from that of their original home, Kamboja, the ancient name for Afghanistan. The Muslaman Kambohs of Meerut stated that that one of their ancestors, Hasan Mahmudi Kamboh was the Wazir (minister) of Sultan Mahmud Ghazni and came to India in first decade of eleventh century AD in the army of the Sultan. Their ancestors succeeded in capturing the city of Meerut from Raja Mai of Meerut Hassan Mahmudi Kamboh built the Jama Masjid in the city and around it stand buried the Kamboh heroes from Ghazni who fell in the attack on Meerut. The Masjid was later repaired in 16th century during the rule of Mughal Emperor Humayun. The early members of the Kamboh family built the Sangi Mahal which was later known as Permit House and another elegant palace known as Rangi Mahal– the remains of both these once-elegant palaces are still in existence.

Kamboh of Amroha and Moradabad

The Kambohs of Amroha all claim to come from Afghanistan. They traditionally resided in two mohallahs, the Saddu muhalla Kamboh who were Shia and those of Badshahi Chabutra wo were Sunni. The Saddu muhalla Kambohs claimed descent from from Hakim Imam-ud-din Khan, who arrived in Amroha the end of the eighteenth century from Meerut . The Sunni Kambohs claim descent from Muhtashim Khan, who came to Amroha at a somewhat earlier date. This family is related to the Sunni Kambohs of Moradabad, whose ancestor, Karim Bakhsh arrived in Moradabad from Dehli , during the rule of the Awadh Nawab Asaf-ud-daula. The Awadhi authorities appointed him chakladar . When Awadh rule was replaced by the British in the beginning of the 19th Century, he was made tehsildar. These Moradabad Kambohs were substantial landowners. In addition to the Muslim Kambohs, the old district of Moradabad (now Amroha, Moradabad and Sambhal) was also home to a large community of Hindu Kambohs.

https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/tag/muslim-kamboh/

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## Advocate Pakistan

Brahmarshi said:


> i respectfully disagree. royals and nobles make only tiny percentage of while population. fore example Brahmins are 2.5% of whole India and if we only count north Indian Brahmins they % surely drops to 1.5%.
> 
> even if we count Real Rajputs, in Rajasthan Rajputs are only 10% of total population than how can we accept that whole region or at least 60
> % to 80% of it is populated by royal/noble clans ?



That's a point too but remember that these tribes have very close traits and a few genetic studies also suggesting same ancestry. I"ll try to relocate the source for you.


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## dreamer4eva

Kambojaric said:


> I am a Kamboh indeed. Our non-Muslim kin use the term Kamboj. How we have kept our identity intact, I have no idea to be honest. I have studied in a basic sense the Kamboja/Parama Kamboja history, and yet subsequent to the move down to Central/Eastern Punjab we seem to disappear from the history books, until we reemerge as Kamboj/Kamboh during the medieval period. There is talk of one "Hasan Mahmudi Kamboh" who was a wazir and general in the army of Mahmud Ghaznavi, but this may very well be a fictionalised character created by the Kamboh Nawab family of Meerut to amplify their noble lineage, as was often the case during this era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Khair_Andesh_Khan is one famous individual of this line).
> The peak of Muslim Kambohs at least came during Mughal rule, when the tribe seems to have been elevated to nobility status, which is a rarity amongst Punjabi tribes. Abū al-Faz̤l in the Ain-e-Akbari writes that
> 
> "during the reigns of Akbar and Jahangir, it was certainly a distinction to belong to this tribe (Kamboh), as will be seen just now ... (goes on to explain the various notable Kamboh figures during this period)"
> page 399, Ain-e-Akbari (translated by H.Blochman).
> 
> These notable figures include Shahbaz Khan Kamboh and Sheikh Gadai Kamboh. However during the Sultunate period, Kambohs had become prominent already. Sheikh Jamali Kamboh and Sama'uddin Kamboh (of Multan) come to mind now.
> 
> In the modern era one famous Muslim Kamboh is Nawab Waqar ul Mulk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Waqar-ul-Mulk_Kamboh) who was a founding father of the Muslim League, and a famous Sikh Kamboj is Udham Singh, the assassin of Michael O'Dwyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh)



I have heard a very different version for Kamohs, they are called Kamoh in Indian Punjab, and mostly concentrated near the Pakistan border especially in Fazilka and Abohar areas. They are considered a lower caste by Jatts, one of my friends from Abohar called them Churras (no offence intended). Don't know much about these things so Kamboj and Kamoh could be different people.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

dreamer4eva said:


> I have heard a very different version for Kamohs, they are called Kamoh in Indian Punjab, and mostly concentrated near the Pakistan border especially in Fazilka and Abohar areas. They are considered a lower caste by Jatts, one of my friends from Abohar called them Churras (no offence intended). Don't know much about these things so Kamboj and Kamoh could be different people.


Here in Pakistan, Churra (although derived from a tribe) is a racial slur against dark-skinned people and sometimes even Indians. Kambohs are not really dark-skinned, I don't understand why your friend would call them that, unless it carries a different meaning in India.

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## dreamer4eva

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Here in Pakistan, Churra (although derived from a tribe) is a racial slur against dark-skinned people and sometimes even Indians. Kambohs are not really dark-skinned, I don't understand why your friend would call them that, unless it carries a different meaning in India.


It is also a racial slur (punishable by law for up to two years) and they are considered untouchables/dalits by Hindus. Their castes/tribes are Valmikis & Mazabhi Sikhs and categorised as scheduled caste by Indian Constitution. It is sad to day as a Sikh, even in our religion they are discriminated. You are right about the Kamohs though, I know one and its a small sample size, however he has very light skin and look more Kashmiri than Punjabi.


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## Kabira

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There was also an Indian study that found that Greek genetic contribution was up to 15% of the population of Punjab (Indian Punjab). I'm guessing these numbers would be much higher on the Pakistani side.



Source? Only study I've seen so far was to detect Greek admixture in pathans and they didn't find anything. Till there is hard evidence I will continue to believe we are all indo-aryan, iranic, ivc, onge aborginal left overs.



Juggernaut_is_here said:


> @Proudpakistaniguy Brilliant write up..confirms What I suspected
> 
> 20% of the Paternal genes in Punjab descend from Islamic invasions
> may be around 10-20% from the Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasions
> 
> and around 16% from the original Aryan invasion
> 
> -------The mix of Central Asian genes in Indo-Aryan Pak Punjab would be around 46-56%----------------------
> 
> 
> while regarding India upper caste Hindu in North-West
> 
> 10% from Scythian,Kushana,Huna,Parthian invasion
> 16% from original Aryan invasion
> ----The Mix of Central Asian genes in North Western Republic of India would be around 26%---------------------
> 
> 
> This for you as well as @Joe Shearer as to how one tribe pushes the other out of central Asia and all of them follow like a train to the subcontinent



How much persians have aryan ancestry in your opinion?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Kabira said:


> Source? Only study I've seen so far was to detect Greek admixture in pathans and they didn't find anything. Till there is hard evidence I will continue to believe we are all indo-aryan, iranic, ivc, onge aborginal left overs.
> 
> 
> 
> How much persians have aryan ancestry in your opinion?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Indo-Greeks#Genetic_contribution

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## Kabira

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Indo-Greeks#Genetic_contribution



That paper is only talking about some similar haplogroups, not admixture. Plus almost 2 decade ago DNA tech was not as advance as today and resolution of hoplgraphs was low. For exemple J2 from south asia and europe had common ancestor 10 thousand or more years ago. When Greeks or civilisation as we know it didn't exist. 

So its not like it came with Greeks unless we can prove with latest high resolution tests across the board.


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## padamchen

Brahmarshi said:


> I thought your Mongol Father taught you how to speak like civilized person but I guess I was wrong. @padamchen was right, Once a Khanjarzaat always a Khanjarzaat. You must be lar pathan/pashtunised Dardic or Baloch.
> 
> 
> Kamboj is a jat Gotra in India. They live in Northern Part of Punjab.
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I have simple Questions for you, how many native rajput Tribes in Punjab and Sindh are Real ? and what's their population? are there any Muhajir Rajputs in Pakistan beside Haryanvi Rajputs and Khanzada of UP ?
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't be in History section or claim origin for Indian/Hindu System if you can take the hear or prove your claim.
> 
> This practice is not unique to plains, even on Hills and Valley of Kashmir we have many Hindus who believes that they are not Indians but "persians" even if they look some what different from regular Indians. large number of Himachalis are notorious for this... very racist people, they believe that They are Pure Aryans and other Indians are below us. @padamchen
> 
> A fellow KP and member of this site called Kashmiri Pandit is one of them. I pity those who have to Invent Illegitimate father to feel Good about themselves.



I'm not sure why I as tagged here.

My only real beef is with gelf mallus (feckless slimy irritating) and with converted Marathas trying to pass off as Iranic. When all they are in reality is a "tribe" of POWs who couldn't go back.

Cheers, Doc


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## Joe Shearer

Brahmarshi said:


> I thought your Mongol Father taught you how to speak like civilized person but I guess I was wrong. @padamchen was right, Once a Khanjarzaat always a Khanjarzaat. You must be lar pathan/pashtunised Dardic or Baloch.
> 
> 
> Kamboj is a jat Gotra in India. They live in Northern Part of Punjab.
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I have simple Questions for you, how many native rajput Tribes in Punjab and Sindh are Real ? and what's their population? are there any Muhajir Rajputs in Pakistan beside Haryanvi Rajputs and Khanzada of UP ?
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't be in History section or claim origin for Indian/Hindu System if you can take the hear or prove your claim.
> 
> This practice is not unique to plains, even on Hills and Valley of Kashmir we have many Hindus who believes that they are not Indians but "persians" even if they look some what different from regular Indians. large number of Himachalis are notorious for this... very racist people, they believe that They are Pure Aryans and other Indians are below us. @padamchen
> 
> A fellow KP and member of this site called Kashmiri Pandit is one of them. I pity those who have to Invent Illegitimate father to feel Good about themselves.



I couldn't understand what you wrote.

This is not the History Section; there is no such Section.
Who claimed origin for the Indian/ Hindu system?
What is this taking the hear? 
What claim do I have to prove? 

You have been proved wrong on a number of occasions by the Pakistani members; perhaps you should either do your homework better before coming to post, or you should abstain, unless you REALLY know. At the moment, you are making a very poor impression.



Kabira said:


> Source? Only study I've seen so far was to detect Greek admixture in pathans and they didn't find anything. Till there is hard evidence I will continue to believe we are all indo-aryan, iranic, ivc, onge aborginal left overs.
> 
> 
> 
> How much persians have aryan ancestry in your opinion?



While I agree with the general tenor of your questions and the justification for your scepticism, this is to remind you that Persians cannot have ANY Aryan ancestry, because Aryan is not an ethnic group or a race. It is a language group.


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## Kambojaric

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> @Kambojaric
> There are a number of different traditions as to the origin of the Kamboh. Some Kamboh claim Afghan origin, others claim Arab origin, while others simply claim to be Muslim converts from the Hindu Kamboh caste.



Most of the origin theories seem far fetched, especially the Arab one, as there is nothing at all linking Kambohs with the Arabian peninsula. The Iranic link is strong due to the fact that "Kamboja" is a term used by Persian and Iranic royalty of Central Asia and Persia as well. For example Cambyses is the Hellenized version of Kamboja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambyses_II).

The Hindu accounts claiming that the Kambojas moved from Gujarat to Punjab also make little sense as historical accounts suggest the Kambojas inhabited the area around the Kabul river, and that the Parama Kambojas (kin of Kambojas) were resident beyond the Pamirs (probably around Tajikistan which also coincidently is the only region of Central Asia which remains Iranic to this day). The move of the Kambojas down to Punjab seems to have happened from the other direction hence i.e. from Central Asia to Punjab, following a well established historic migration pattern. We also know as stated in my previous post that as per Buddhist texts the Kambojas also exhibited features of the Zoroastrian faith again reincorcing the C.Asia to Punjab migration pattern.



dreamer4eva said:


> I have heard a very different version for Kamohs, they are called Kamoh in Indian Punjab, and mostly concentrated near the Pakistan border especially in Fazilka and Abohar areas. They are considered a lower caste by Jatts, one of my friends from Abohar called them Churras (no offence intended). Don't know much about these things so Kamboj and Kamoh could be different people.



Have never heard of "Kamohs" before tbh. the "b" in "Kamboh" is quite prominent so could be a different group. I know for a fact that the generation prior to us, and even many in my generation are obsessed with the idea of only marrying within the tribe. Marriages with outsiders are really frowned upon (which is nothing I am proud of and I myself have married outside  ). However afaik in South Asia this habit is usually the case with groups that have historically been in positions of power or prestige.

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## django

Kabira said:


> How many sock accounts do you come up with? One time you pretend to be kashtriya, next time Gujarati brahmin and some times Kashmiri pandit.
> 
> Going as far as allowing other men to **** your wife to get light skin babies and preserve your bhangi race. Saw your post some time ago in PF and lmao
> 
> "majority of Hilly Rajputs are the product of these cross breeding and want to disassociate with their past. rajputs with rajwadi surnames consider themeselves superior but those native kings who look darker gets mocked as "gola" (mix breed, son of rakhile) so they actually invite light skinned rajputs and kshatriya tribes from Jammu region such as jamwals to *sleep with their women so that their wives can give birth to pure white looking Native Child.*"
> 
> 99% of you are bhangi Kashtriyas, time to accept that and move on. No you are not related to central asians as much as you wish.

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## Kabira

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> nowaday half breed persian wannbe c...ts are talkin trash.. forgetin their true worth... assimilated indian dikras who were exiled by real Farsis... ended up in india... got mixed with locals... and now their women are leavin em for indian men... and all these inbred gujjus can do is moan on forums.. mid age crisis dont help much either.. phuckin phuddus....



Why you question my aryaness, people confuse me with muslims all the time in India.

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## django

Thank God the mods banned Ghandaran Brahmin "Brahmarshi", a man from the Ghandarabut born in Haryana

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## qamar1990

Joe Shearer said:


> I just got a very annoyed personal mail, saying that there were indeed Kambojas in India, and that their Pakistani counterparts call themselves Kamboh.
> 
> @qamar1990
> 
> Is this correct? Is the name Kamboh?


well we do have kombahs in pakistan and despite what one onion lover says people usually associate them with arians


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## lastofthepatriots

qamar1990 said:


> well we do have kombahs in pakistan and despite what one onion lover says people usually associate them with arians



Looks like some Arain poured out the baby gujjar's milk.

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## Joe Shearer

lastofthepatriots said:


> Looks like some Arain poured out the baby gujjar's milk.





qamar1990 said:


> well we do have kombahs in pakistan and despite what one onion loversays people usually associate them with arians



C L A S S !

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## Taimur Khurram

I'm curious what you guys think about the theory of Jewish/Greek ancestry for Kashmiris? There's a solid case to be made (especially for the Jews).


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## Jaanbaz

Sir Michael O'Dwyer, Lieutenant Governor of the Punjab Province (British India) joined the Indian service as Magistrate, Civil Judge, Superintendent of the Jail,and Treasury Officer. In 1885, he was posted first to Shahpur, Pakistan in Punjab. Writing about the tribes of Salt Range, he writes; "Of these perhaps the most interesting were the Awans of the Salt Range................It occurred to Wilson and me, who spent much time among them and every year had to send hundreds of them to prison for violent breaches of the peace, that it would be for their good and ours to open a career for the young" bloods" in the Army. A new battalion was then being raised. We induced the Commandant to come down to the great Horse Fair in 1888 or 1889, and persuaded the AWAN greybeards to bring in some hundreds of their young men- preferably the wilder spirits. Recruiting caught on like wild-fire, and in twenty years the Awan soldier had made his name and was to be found in nearly every Mohammedan company or squadron recruited in the Punjab. The material benefits were of no small value to a poor and frugal tribe; but they valued even more the increased izzat (honour) which military service confers in the Punjab. In the Great War nearly every fit man of military age came forward from these Awan villages, and an inspiring sight was to see the batches of young recruits escorted for miles on their way by their mothers, wives, and sisters, singing songs of the brave deeds of their forefathers and urging the young men to emulate them."[2]

After the Independence of pakistan, the army of Pakistan also heavily recruits Awans from Salt Range. Awans occupy the highest ranks of the Pakistani Army.[3] The late Lieutenant Colonel Qazi Iqbal Ahmad, late Lieutenant Colonel Qazi Iftikhar Ahmad, late Lieutenant Colonel Qazi Altaf Hussain, Late Major Qazi Zahoor ul Haq, Retired Major General Qazi Shafiq Ahmad, and many other senior officers of Pakistan Army belonged to this area.

*ReferencesEdit*

↑ Lord Roberts, Forty-one years in India (London: 1897), p. 383.
↑ India as I knew it, 1885-1925, by Sir Michael O'Dwyer p.41.
↑ http://www.theawan.com/history.html

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## Pakistani E

Jaanbaz said:


> After the Independence of pakistan, the army of Pakistan also heavily recruits Awans from Salt Range. Awans occupy the highest ranks of the Pakistani Army.[3] The late Lieutenant Colonel Qazi Iqbal Ahmad, late Lieutenant Colonel Qazi Iftikhar Ahmad, late Lieutenant Colonel Qazi Altaf Hussain, Late Major Qazi Zahoor ul Haq, Retired Major General Qazi Shafiq Ahmad, and many other senior officers of Pakistan Army belonged to this area.



Should add Major General Abdul Ali Malik and his brother Lieutenant General Akhtar Hussain Malik to the list as well.

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## Manidabest

Maarkhoor said:


> Yes they are but Bhutto is also a sub caste of Arain happens to be same name and people get confuse.


Bhuttos are rajputs they have nuthing to do with arains. Zia ul Haq was arain and i dont glorify any of his steps ( sorry i m entitle to my opinions) i am doing research on arains so pls i need people for dna testing thanx. 

the following are the titles that are normally used with arain names ....
*Chaudhry*,* Mian*, *Mehar*, *Ramay*, *Bhutta*, *Ghurki*, *Ramday*, *Sardar*, *Saleemi*, *Hijazi*, , *Shami*, *Rattay*,



lastofthepatriots said:


> There are plenty of Arains in Sindh, that literally go by the surname 'Arain' though. A lot of fakes among us these days, but I am a Ramay.


maaaan we need to have a criteria where we can identify the main and basic points and have a dna test done to prove arain identity



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Gills are Jatts.
> Qutub Shahi is used by Awans.
> Ghurkis i think are Gujjars.
> Bhuttas are a south panjab clan.



ghurki is a small village near the wagah border and majority residents are from arain tribe and they mostly use ghurki as an identity with their names


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## lastofthepatriots

Manidabest said:


> Bhuttos are rajputs they have nuthing to do with arains. Zia ul Haq was arain and i dont glorify any of his steps ( sorry i m entitle to my opinions) i am doing research on arains so pls i need people for dna testing thanx.
> 
> the following are the titles that are normally used with arain names ....
> *Chaudhry*,* Mian*, *Mehar*, *Ramay*, *Bhutta*, *Ghurki*, *Ramday*, *Sardar*, *Saleemi*, *Hijazi*, , *Shami*, *Rattay*,
> 
> 
> maaaan we need to have a criteria where we can identify the main and basic points and have a dna test done to prove arain identity



Arains are usually related to each other. Suffer from skin allergies. Usually have fair/red color skin. Love onions. Are very religious. Also Arain people have different blood type from any other tribe in Pakistan which is B. Arains are not into badmashi but typically have extremely violent tempers when they are angry.

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## Manidabest

lastofthepatriots said:


> Arains are usually related to each other. Suffer from skin allergies. Usually have fair/red color skin. Love onions. Are very religious. Also Arain people have different blood type from any other tribe in Pakistan which is B. Arains are not into badmashi but typically have extremely violent tempers when they are angry.



well why dont we make a thread and only arains to be allowed to comment on it and compile a data on everythin from general habits to population density and eating habits etc...

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## lastofthepatriots

Manidabest said:


> well why dont we make a thread and only arains to be allowed to comment on it and compile a data on everythin from general habits to population density and eating habits etc...



Unfortunately, I'm not interested enough. Will always be proud of being Arain though.


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## Manidabest

i have few questions regarding kashmiris in Punjab. please someone inform me that kashmiris in punjab see themelves as kashmiris as a nation living in punjab or kashmiris as a son of soil of punjab. when i say kashmiris it means those kashmiris who have migrated in 19th century due to dogra rule in kashmir and also due to draught in 19th century and also those kashmiris who migrated from eastern punjab to western punjab during 1947. if given a chance will they migrate back to kashmir as a kashmir is their original homeland. have kashmiris become the part of baradari system in Punjab or they tend to have different system than normal punjabi tribes.


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## lastofthepatriots

Manidabest said:


> i have few questions regarding kashmiris in Punjab. please someone inform me that kashmiris in punjab see themelves as kashmiris as a nation living in punjab or kashmiris as a son of soil of punjab. when i say kashmiris it means those kashmiris who have migrated in 19th century due to dogra rule in kashmir and also due to draught in 19th century and also those kashmiris who migrated from eastern punjab to western punjab during 1947. if given a chance will they migrate back to kashmir as a kashmir is their original homeland. have kashmiris become the part of baradari system in Punjab or they tend to have different system than normal punjabi tribes.



They are part of society of Northern Punjab area. They would not immigrate back.

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## Maarkhoor

@Manidabest 
Check my signatures.


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## Manidabest

Maarkhoor said:


> @Manidabest
> Check my signatures.


hahahahaha... nice one


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## Amalek

What tribe do Memons belong to? Are they Jatts or Rajputs or some other tribe?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ferrari007 said:


> What tribe do Memons belong to? Are they Jatts or Rajputs or some other tribe?


None.

There are 2 types of memons.

Sindhi memons
Urdu speaking memons.

Both arent native to Pak but india.


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## Amalek

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> None.
> 
> There are 2 types of memons.
> 
> Sindhi memons
> Urdu speaking memons.
> 
> Both arent native to Pak but india.


Memon language is a hodgepodge mix of Gujarati, Kacchi and Sindhi, with some Punjabi and Urdu words. Most live in Gujarat. I don't know their origin tribe.


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## Jaanbaz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> None.
> 
> There are 2 types of memons.
> 
> Sindhi memons
> Urdu speaking memons.
> 
> Both arent native to Pak but india.



Nice people though, keep to themselves, successful businessmen.


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## livingdead

offtopic: has anybody used a dna test service in UK like ancestry.co.uk or similar?


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## Sucha Kuggu

Al-Quran:"We have divided you in to tribes so that you are recognized"
All tribes/casts feel proud of them-self no one if inferior or others (Arabi/Ajami execpt on their TAQWA). But the day we will feel proud to being the Muslims that will make the difference in good way.


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## Ocean

ferrari007 said:


> What tribe do Memons belong to? Are they Jatts or Rajputs or some other tribe?


Gujratis.



Manidabest said:


> i have few questions regarding kashmiris in Punjab. please someone inform me that kashmiris in punjab see themelves as kashmiris as a nation living in punjab or kashmiris as a son of soil of punjab. when i say kashmiris it means those kashmiris who have migrated in 19th century due to dogra rule in kashmir and also due to draught in 19th century and also those kashmiris who migrated from eastern punjab to western punjab during 1947. if given a chance will they migrate back to kashmir as a kashmir is their original homeland. have kashmiris become the part of baradari system in Punjab or they tend to have different system than normal punjabi tribes.


No , no matter what part of world you live in your ethnic group stays intact. biradari , regional and lingusitic identities are three different things.

You are regionally and linguistically punjabi but your ethnicity is kashmiri as its in the bloodline and just by living in punjab your blodline wont change it will be kashmiri. So in essence, you are a kashmiri an du will introduce yourself as kashmiri based in punjab , lahore or whatever city. And your tribe name i am sure your caste name must be a part of your surname like butt, dar will be enough to tell your kashmiri origins.

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## Manidabest

Ocean said:


> Gujratis.
> 
> 
> No , no matter what part of world you live in your ethnic group stays intact. biradari , regional and lingusitic identities are three different things.
> 
> You are regionally and linguistically punjabi but your ethnicity is kashmiri as its in the bloodline and just by living in punjab your blodline wont change it will be kashmiri. So in essence, you are a kashmiri an du will introduce yourself as kashmiri based in punjab , lahore or whatever city. And your tribe name i am sure your caste name must be a part of your surname like butt, dar will be enough to tell your kashmiri origins.



so do you thik that nawaz sharif is misleading punjabis by representing himself as a punjabi by adding mian with his name ???

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## Royal Rajput

Namaskar,

I have little idea about present demographics of Southasian states but i must say that we should not confuse ethnicity with Language.

a Rajashtani living in Punjab is still a Rajasthani, a sindhi living in Bengal is still a Sindhi. 





malwi, bhatiani and Bagri are classified as Punjabi but all 3 have very heavy input of Rajasthani loanwords in their vocabulary same with sairaki which is merger of Sindhi and Punjabi which formed it's own unique identity. this merger of different Languages and dialects in north west Subcontinent is the reason its hard to classify these languages into West or Central Indo Aryan Languages.

with a limited Knowledge of Geography i urge people to do not classify Kathiyawar with Gujarat. Kathiyawar and kutchh are Continuation of Sindh and it's Sea shore. Both people are ethnically very similar while speak different Religion while Gujaratis and Sindhi speak same language But still hate each other. 




here, we can see that Panensula of Kathiywar is divided from Gujarat and Sindh like kutchh and both have formed it's own unique Identity that is similar to Sindh ethnically and Gujarat via Linguistically.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Manidabest said:


> i have few questions regarding kashmiris in Punjab. please someone inform me that kashmiris in punjab see themelves as kashmiris as a nation living in punjab or kashmiris as a son of soil of punjab. when i say kashmiris it means those kashmiris who have migrated in 19th century due to dogra rule in kashmir and also due to draught in 19th century and also those kashmiris who migrated from eastern punjab to western punjab during 1947. if given a chance will they migrate back to kashmir as a kashmir is their original homeland. have kashmiris become the part of baradari system in Punjab or they tend to have different system than normal punjabi tribes.


We have integrated into Punjab and it's culture. We have mostly forgotten our original native languages and now speak Punjabi and Urdu - but some clans still retain their tribal language such as Gojri. We have also become a part of the Baradari system.

We came here with nothing but with hard work we have turned ourselves into a thriving community while our relatives that stayed in J&K are mostly living in poverty, so we would not really go back given a chance. Infact, some of our relatives from IoK crossed the border in 1994 to get to Pakistan. If we ever wanted to go back to J&K, it would first need to have a Pakistani flag flying above it and not a the forgien occupying Indian flag.

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## Ocean

Manidabest said:


> so do you thik that nawaz sharif is misleading punjabis by representing himself as a punjabi by adding mian with his name ???


Bhai i think i cant say with surety cause nawaz sharif ka kashmiri and jati umra background sab ko pata hai , i had heard that when his father joined blacksmith profession in lahore, thenindustry was dominated by arains , then somewhere to be a part of community or something his father adopted mian title kuch issi tarah sya kaheen parha tha par bhool gaya hai iwill search it out again.
I dont know if his aim of using mian is to present a punjabi identity or not. The title was adopted by his father first and at that time they were not in politics afaik. But he is a kashmiri n will remain so. N punjabis shud decide betetr do they want a corrupt kashmiri migrant looting their resources or what , someone who does not even originally belong to,punjab. 
I have a part kashmiri identity and i hate everything kashmiri.


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## django

@Kaptaan @DESERT FIGHTER @Talwar e Pakistan @Sher Shah Awan
Guess who is back, now he is a 92 year old Pandit from Rajashtan
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/namaskar.531781/page-2#post-10070180

whose tribe migrated from Sistan Basin central asia, does this fool ever give up
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/whatever.46703/page-4760#post-10070174

Vishvamitra, Kaushika,,,,,Brahminzada,,, @Pandit Chacha Ji mods will be on to you you bloody troll
@Horus

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## Manidabest

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> We have integrated into Punjab and it's culture. We have mostly forgotten our original native languages and now speak Punjabi and Urdu - but some clans still retain their tribal language such as Gojri. We have also become a part of the Baradari system.
> 
> We came here with nothing but with hard work we have turned ourselves into a thriving community while our relatives that stayed in J&K are mostly living in poverty, so we would not really go back given a chance. Infact, some of our relatives from IoK crossed the border in 1994 to get to Pakistan. If we ever wanted to go back to J&K, it would first need to have a Pakistani flag flying above it and not a the forgien occupying Indian flag.



Gojri language is a kashmiri language or is it a Gujjar language ...???



Ocean said:


> Bhai i think i cant say with surety cause nawaz sharif ka kashmiri and jati umra background sab ko pata hai , i had heard that when his father joined blacksmith profession in lahore, thenindustry was dominated by arains , then somewhere to be a part of community or something his father adopted mian title kuch issi tarah sya kaheen parha tha par bhool gaya hai iwill search it out again.
> I dont know if his aim of using mian is to present a punjabi identity or not. The title was adopted by his father first and at that time they were not in politics afaik. But he is a kashmiri n will remain so. N punjabis shud decide betetr do they want a corrupt kashmiri migrant looting their resources or what , someone who does not even originally belong to,punjab.
> I have a part kashmiri identity and i hate everything kashmiri.



well you are very judgmental due to your hate towards Kashmiris. I am researching and collecting a data for tribes and societies of muslim nations and that is why i needed the information. there is no nation called Punjabi it is a group nations that lives on the land of 5 rivers which is called Punjab Punj means 5 and aab means water. i am an arain and arains are not many into blacksmith profession they are mostly lawyers, and small land holders. Now they r in all the professions. but they dominate lahore politically and this is why nawaz sharif added mian title with his name .



Pandit Chacha Ji said:


> Namaskar,
> 
> I have little idea about present demographics of Southasian states but i must say that we should not confuse ethnicity with Language.
> 
> a Rajashtani living in Punjab is still a Rajasthani, a sindhi living in Bengal is still a Sindhi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> malwi, bhatiani and Bagri are classified as Punjabi but all 3 have very heavy input of Rajasthani loanwords in their vocabulary same with sairaki which is merger of Sindhi and Punjabi which formed it's own unique identity. this merger of different Languages and dialects in north west Subcontinent is the reason its hard to classify these languages into West or Central Indo Aryan Languages.
> 
> with a limited Knowledge of Geography i urge people to do not classify Kathiyawar with Gujarat. Kathiyawar and kutchh are Continuation of Sindh and it's Sea shore. Both people are ethnically very similar while speak different Religion while Gujaratis and Sindhi speak same language But still hate each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here, we can see that Panensula of Kathiywar is divided from Gujarat and Sindh like kutchh and both have formed it's own unique Identity that is similar to Sindh ethnically and Gujarat via Linguistically.



so you mean to say that all those Rajput tribes living in Pakistani Punjab and Sindh are actually Rajasthani people??? and Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab are Kashmiris no matter how many years they spend in Punjab???


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## Ocean

Manidabest said:


> well you are very judgmental due to your hate towards Kashmiris. I am researching and collecting a data for tribes and societies of muslim nations and that is why i needed the information. there is no nation called Punjabi it is a group nations that lives on the land of 5 rivers which is called Punjab Punj means 5 and aab means water. i am an arain and arains are not many into blacksmith profession they are mostly lawyers, and small land holders. Now they r in all the professions. but they dominate lahore politically and this is why nawaz sharif added mian title with his name .
> 
> 
> 
> so you mean to say that all those Rajput tribes living in Pakistani Punjab and Sindh are actually Rajasthani people??? and Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab are Kashmiris no matter how many years they spend in Punjab???


I said mujhay woh info mil nahi rahi thee how his father adopted mian title, it was due to working with community who had mian title in names , iwant to find it out further.

No i am not blinded by hate against kashmiris or anyone, hmm did u read i said i have half kashmiri identity. My hatred is due to people like nawaz , ishaq dat , khawaja asif, khawaja saad, sheikh rasheed, shehbaz sharif , these people are not punjabis but have been brutally looting resources of punjab depsite being outsiders to this land.



Manidabest said:


> Gojri language is a kashmiri language or is it a Gujjar language ...???
> 
> 
> 
> well you are very judgmental due to your hate towards Kashmiris. I am researching and collecting a data for tribes and societies of muslim nations and that is why i needed the information. there is no nation called Punjabi it is a group nations that lives on the land of 5 rivers which is called Punjab Punj means 5 and aab means water. i am an arain and arains are not many into blacksmith profession they are mostly lawyers, and small land holders. Now they r in all the professions. but they dominate lahore politically and this is why nawaz sharif added mian title with his name .
> 
> 
> 
> so you mean to say that all those Rajput tribes living in Pakistani Punjab and Sindh are actually Rajasthani people??? and Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab are Kashmiris no matter how many years they spend in Punjab???


I think gujjars language is called gojri its spoken in hilly areas. Its called gojri not gujjari


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Manidabest said:


> Gojri language is a kashmiri language or is it a Gujjar language ...???
> 
> 
> 
> well you are very judgmental due to your hate towards Kashmiris. I am researching and collecting a data for tribes and societies of muslim nations and that is why i needed the information. there is no nation called Punjabi it is a group nations that lives on the land of 5 rivers which is called Punjab Punj means 5 and aab means water. i am an arain and arains are not many into blacksmith profession they are mostly lawyers, and small land holders. Now they r in all the professions. but they dominate lahore politically and this is why nawaz sharif added mian title with his name .
> 
> 
> 
> so you mean to say that all those Rajput tribes living in Pakistani Punjab and Sindh are actually Rajasthani people??? and Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab are Kashmiris no matter how many years they spend in Punjab???


Gojri is a Gujjar language, but it can also be considered as one of the Kashmiri or even Rajasthani languages.


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## django

Manidabest said:


> so you mean to say that all those Rajput tribes living in Pakistani Punjab and Sindh are actually Rajasthani people??? and Kashmiris in Pakistani Punjab are Kashmiris no matter how many years they spend in Punjab???


Bro he is a well known troll with a 101 false ids, he is best left ignored, one day he is a Bihari, Brahmin, the next a Haryanvi Brahmin and so on, he claims to be a direct descendant of Kabuli Shah rulers because someone in his village told him LOL, he is a Ghandaran without a home

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## Amalek

Ocean said:


> Gujratis.


I did some research on the origins of Memons. They come from Lohana tribe, who were originally from Lahore and Multan region, and some from south Sindh, near Hyderabad. Families of those Lohanas who converted to Islam later moved to Gujarat, Kacch and other parts of Sindh.

Memons are Rajputs, like their Lohana and Thakkar ancestors.


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## Ocean

ferrari007 said:


> I did some research on the origins of Memons. They come from Lohana tribe, who were originally from Lahore and Multan region, and some from south Sindh, near Hyderabad. Families of those Lohanas who converted to Islam later moved to Gujarat, Kacch and other parts of Sindh.
> 
> Memons are Rajputs, like their Lohana and Thakkar ancestors.


Bro i dont know abt this in detail , maybe thats right, but there is one thing when a tribe migrates from one region to another , some remnants of the tribes are still found in their previous region they moved out of , so if memons came from lahore amd multan region then some memons would still have been found there or people from lohana tibe , but thats not really heard of. I dont know abt actual history so i cant say much.

@Kabira has knowledge of tribes of punjab maybe he can help


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## Amalek

Ocean said:


> Bro i dont know abt this in detail , maybe thats right, but there is one thing when a tribe migrates from one region to another , some remnants of the tribes are still found in their previous region they moved out of , so if memons came from lahore amd multan region then some memons would still have been found there or people from lohana tibe , but thats not really heard of. I dont know abt actual history so i cant say much.



Aren't there plenty of Memons all over Pakistan?

Here is a source from Wikipedia about the history of Lahore. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lahore

"Around 580 BC., when king Bimbisara ruled South Asia, the society came to be divided into different communities based on their occupation. One of their communities was called Kshatriyas and King Luv's descendants were classed with them and came to be known as Luvanam, which was also referred to as Luvana. The Luvanas from Loharghat became known as Loharana (masters of swords; or iron ("Loha") chiefs ("Rana")), which later became Lohana."

Sunni Muslim converts from Lohana community were called Memons. Ismaili converts were called Khojas.

Lohana community were Kshatriyas of the Rajput clan, one of the oldest Rajput tribes. Hence, Memons are Rajputs.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

django said:


> Bro he is a well known troll with a 101 false ids, he is best left ignored, one day he is a Bihari, Brahmin, the next a Haryanvi Brahmin and so on, he claims to be a direct descendant of Kabuli Shah rulers because someone in his village told him LOL, he is a Ghandaran without a home






Think he is from the original indian GHANDOO tribe and caste.

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