# Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad



## Kompromat

Epic , just EPIC !

Reactions: Like Like:
46


----------



## somebozo

My family has always held the view that Mr Azad was literally not that Azad afterall!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Farah Sohail

Love Quaid-e-Azam soooo much... He was such a dignified, straight forward, honorable, person..... Loved his reply to Maulana Abul Kalam Azad... Has any one read Abul Kalam Azad's "India wins freedom"?...I have read it, and hate him since....He was truly "Shah se ziada Shah ka wafadaar".....In his book, when u read, he never once stood up for Muslims...He was even more congressi, than Gandhi, I would say.....He always went out of his way, to deny Muslim rights..just to prove, how "loyal" he was..to the Congress....Read his book India wins freedom, and u will exactly know, what I am talking abt...

Truly love Jinnah..cant describe in words, my love and respect for him...He had everything, u would want in a leader... Integrity, honesty, sincerety, dignity, courage, self respect, faith........ Look, at our situation right now.. Once we had him as our our Governor General and now we have Zardari as President...

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Karachiite

I equally respect both Quaid and Abul Kalam Azad. Azad was a true patriot and huge supporter of Hindu-Muslim unity, every Indian should be proud of him.

Reactions: Like Like:
28


----------



## Farah Sohail

Karachiite said:


> I equally respect both Quaid and Abul Kalam Azad. Azad was a true patriot and huge supporter of Hindu-Muslim unity, every Indian should be proud of him.



Yes.. Indians should be proud of him, bcoz he never stood up for Muslim rights, to show his loyalty to Congress..he was Shah se ziada shah ka wafadaar... Until, I hadnt read his book "India wins freedom" i had no feelings for him.. I thought he only politically disagreed with Muslim League, but I have developed special hatred for him, after reading his book...He accused Quaid-e-Azam of being an opportunist(which even Quaid's worst critics never accused him..of) , also he said tht Gandhi had given unnecessary importance to Jinnah, which he wasnt worthy of.... He always spoke about Quaid-e-Azam in a very insulting manner...He never stood up for Muslims rights

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Kompromat

Karachiite said:


> I equally respect both Quaid and Abul Kalam Azad. Azad was a true patriot and huge supporter of Hindu-Muslim unity, every Indian should be proud of him.



Thanks for showing your twisted mindset once more - there is no expense is it?

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## SQ8

Karachiite said:


> I equally respect both Quaid and Abul Kalam Azad. Azad was* a true patriot and huge supporter of Hindu-Muslim unity, every Indian should be proud of him*.



far from it.. 
While Azad was aware of issues that would plague a separate Muslim nation , he put too much faith in communal harmony and the elixir of being a majority.
He may have been an Indian Patriot.. but he was far from being a beneficiary to Islam as a whole.

Reactions: Like Like:
14


----------



## Nitin Goyal

ideological difference between the personalities...

The way you respect jinnah in the same way we respect a.k.azad. so please, people should refrain themselves from passing derogatory remarks.

Reactions: Like Like:
18


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> ideological difference between the personalities...
> 
> The way you respect jinnah in the same way we respect a.k.azad. so please, *people should refrain themselves from passing derogatory remarks.*



Idealogical differences are what make men.. 
One was convinced that a submissive bow to a majority was in the best interests of a minority.. 
the other showed how a minority need not live under a shadow as mice but face the sun as free human beings.

the bold part is important.. as idiots from both sides will come in and use bigotry to the hilt.

Reactions: Like Like:
22


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Oscar said:


> Idealogical differences are what make men..
> *One was convinced that a submissive bow to a majority was in the best interests of a minority.. *
> the other showed how a minority need not live under a shadow as mice but face the sun as free human beings.
> 
> the bold part is important.. as idiots from both sides will come in and use bigotry to the hilt.



Justified it......


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> Justified it......



And proved Iqbal's verse in how the maulana's perception that he as long as could prostrate to Makkah freely , Islam was free.
Justified it when a the religious minority no longer has nothing as such to represent other than "show boys".

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Alchemy

Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad is not a fair "versus" comparison at all .... both men were great in their own way , had some common ideologies/goals and some conflicting ideologies/goals ... both stood for peaceful fight to drive out British , but difference being Jinnah wanted separate state for Muslims and Azad wanted people of all religion to stay together as one !


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Oscar said:


> And proved Iqbal's verse in how the maulana's perception that he as long as could prostrate to Makkah freely , Islam was free.
> Justified it when a the religious minority no longer has nothing as such to represent other than "show boys".



Ground realities depict a different picture....ofcourse we can agree to disagree.


----------



## Kompromat

Oscar said:


> Idealogical differences are what make men..
> One was convinced that a submissive bow to a majority was in the best interests of a minority..
> the other showed how a minority need not live under a shadow as mice but face the sun as free human beings.
> 
> the bold part is important.. as idiots from both sides will come in and use bigotry to the hilt.



If i could use an informal phrase to describe your nutshell reply would be "i love you man".

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jango

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !



Shows how much of an upright person he was.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

Alchemy said:


> Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad is not a fair "versus" comparison at all .... both men were great in their own way , had some common ideologies/goals and some conflicting ideologies/goals ... both stood for peaceful fight to drive out British , but difference being Jinnah wanted separate state for Muslims and Azad wanted people of all religion to stay together as one !



Jinnah was enlightened - Azad was under a delusion - Jinnah is hero & azad was a perverted man who believed in the idea of Hindu Muslim Unity. 

Im sure gentleman's soul would be repenting on his miscalculations -- after Babri Mosque - Gujrat massacres - Kashmiri mass graves. I am sure if he was alive today he would have no shame in saying that in the battle of Two Nation Theory VS Hindu Muslim Unity theory -- later is totally failed - it was bound to.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> Ground realities depict a different picture....ofcourse we can agree to disagree.



Ground realities are based on perception.

As one senior Indian member famously said.. "we are here to give you a reality check".
And here is one person who has family as part of those happy seeing their "_show boys_" perform...who will sell devalued property just so that they can live on rent in posh apartments. 
While that rent is coming.. and while the landlords allow it.
A rather vague statement I admit.. but one with a wide scope if you may expand upon it.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Aeronaut said:


> Jinnah was enlightened - Azad was under a delusion - Jinnah is hero & azad was a perverted man who believed in the idea of Hindu Muslim Unity.
> 
> Im sure gentleman's soul would be repenting on his miscalculations -- after Babri Mosque - Gujrat massacres - Kashmiri mass graves. I am sure if he was alive today he would have no shame in saying that in the battle of Two Nation Theory VS Hindu Muslim Unity theory -- later is totally failed !



hmmmm...1971... east pakistan ...sound any bell dear ????



Oscar said:


> Ground realities are based on perception.
> 
> As one senior Indian member famously said.. "we are here to give you a reality check".
> And here is one person who has family as part of those happy seeing their "_show boys_" perform...who will sell devalued property just so that they can live on rent in posh apartments.
> While that rent is coming.. and while the landlords allow it.
> A rather vague statement I admit.. but one with a wide scope if you may expand upon it.



let me tell you a fact...he was the youngest president of Indian national congress in 1923.


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> hmmmm...*1971... east pakistan* ...sound any bell dear ????
> 
> 
> 
> let me tell you a fact...he was the youngest president of Indian national congress in 1923.



Fairly unrelated example.. since that area was never meant to be part of a larger state in the original vision anyway.
And if there was Hindu-Muslim Unity.. why did you guys not absorb Bangladesh there and then?
And why are you having difficulty now.. you have all the resources if not for those Muslims wishing that they not be enslaved.. Muslims that are labelled as "razakars" even though their parents fought to gain independence from Pakistan.

You are confusing a racial issue with a communal one.

Azad's presidency was somewhat better than Hamid Karzai's.. I must agree.. since he actually did formulate some policies.
But its symbolism was pretty much the same.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Pakistanisage

Aeronaut said:


> Thanks for showing your twisted mindset once more - there is no expense is it?




Aeronaut , why did you even bother to start the thread if you are not open to any opposing ideas ?

When you start a thread on the historical aspects you have to be atleast open to opposing ideas to see if they have any validity.

Intellectual discussions only flourish under open forums that do not try to intimidate opposing ideas being expressed.

People that try to muffle the sound of opposing ideas usually are intellectually bankrupt and are afraid they do not have the weight of logic on their side.

Whether you like Abul Kalam Azad or not he was an intellectual who presented strong arguments to back up his contentions.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lem34

The Quaid was President of the Indian Congress whilst Nehru was in shorts he realised that Pakistan was the only way because of his experience.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Oscar said:


> Fairly unrelated example.. since that area was never meant to be part of a larger state in the original vision anyway.
> And if there was Hindu-Muslim Unity.. why did you guys not absorb Bangladesh there and then?
> And why are you having difficulty now.. you have all the resources if not for those Muslims wishing that they not be enslaved.. Muslims that are labelled as "razakars" even though their parents fought to gain independence from Pakistan.
> 
> You are confusing a racial issue with a communal one.
> 
> Azad's presidency was somewhat better than Hamid Karzai's.. I must agree.. since he actually did formulate some policies.
> But its symbolism was pretty much the same.



I don't know why you people have the fantasy of him having a show man.. 

Jinnah's idea failed in 1971 when PA killed her own muslim brothers in BD. The talk of ummah failed at that very moment. We have keep india united but can't say the same for Pakistan. the things happening in balouchistan, gilgit baltistan are testimony to this.

@mods...can you please delete few posts of pakistani members who are embarrassing themselves. Thanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## SQ8

Pakistanisage said:


> *People that try to muffle the sound of opposing ideas usually are intellectually bankrupt and are afraid they do not have the weight of logic on their side.*



There should be freedom of expression as long as it does not cross limits.
A fondness for the Maulana does not.
Racial undertones in personal attacks do cross limits and will be punished severely.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Pakistanisage said:


> Whether you like Abul Kalam Azad or not he was an intellectual who presented strong arguments to back his contentions.



But he was of course wrong. Muslims in India are facing discrimination there can be no argument today. Even as a bigger minority we would still have faced these issues if Pakistan had not been formed


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Aryan_B said:


> But he was of course wrong. Muslims in India are facing discrimination there can be no argument today. Even as a bigger minority we would still have faced these issues if Pakistan had not been formed



really ??? how many got killed in riots in past decade ? can you tell me ?


----------



## Pakistanisage

Aryan_B said:


> But he was of course wrong. Muslims in India are facing discrimination there can be no argument today. Even as a bigger minority we would still have faced these issues if Pakistan had not been formed




My dear Aryan, if there was no Pakistan, Indian Muslims would have been nearly 40% of India's Population. That was Nehru's worst nightmare and Jinnah did solve Nehru's " Muslim Problem " . Four out of ten Indians would have been Muslims and no Indian could ever become a PM without Muslim vote. Today 13.65% of Indians are muslims and the Indian Politicians do somersaults to vy for Muslim vote.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> I don't know why you people have the fantasy of him having a show man..
> 
> *Jinnah's idea failed in 1971 when PA killed her own muslim brothers in BD. The talk of ummah failed at that very moment. We have keep india united but can't say the same for Pakistan. the things happening in balouchistan, gilgit baltistan are testimony to this.*
> 
> @mods...can you please delete few posts of pakistani members who are embarrassing themselves. Thanks.



Here you again.. bringing in racial oppression and national identity issues to divert from a topic on religious identity.
What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?
The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture.. 
But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick.. 
And to add insult to Injury(not that they'll ever notice since they are too must trying to scream Vande mataram so that they fit in).. "Muslim" showboy actors are asked to play such roles.. perhaps a sweetner in the form of representations as lovers(mostly Muslim girls), Middle class extras and the ever growing usage of sacred spiritually oriented scripture degenerated as romantic or ridiculous expression.



Pakistanisage said:


> My dear Aryan, if there was no Pakistan, *Indian Muslims would have been nearly 40% of India's Population.* That was Nehru's worst nightmare and Jinnah did solve Nehru's " Muslim Problem " . Four out of ten Indians would have been Muslims and no Indian could ever become a PM without Muslim vote. Today 13.65% of Indians are muslims and the Indian Politicians do somersaults to vy for Muslim vote.



Hence the fact that it was not tolerable.. the idea of having Muslims actually being meaningful in the Indian state.

Again.. the idea is not that Hindus and Muslims cannot co-exist.. they can.. they do .. all over the world.. in communities where neither has a say in policies.
BUT.. when it comes to the exertion of a voice.. the seat of power..The co-existence is impossible unless one side is completely suppressed.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Kompromat

Pakistanisage said:


> Aeronaut , why did you even bother to start the thread if you are not open to any opposing ideas ?
> 
> When you start a thread on the historical aspects you have to be atleast open to opposing ideas to see if they have any validity.
> 
> Intellectual discussions only flourish under open forums that do not try to intimidate opposing ideas being expressed.
> 
> People that try to muffle the sound of opposing ideas usually are intellectually bankrupt and are afraid they do not have the weight of logic on their side.
> 
> Whether you like Abul Kalam Azad or not he was an intellectual who presented strong arguments to back his contentions.




Thanks for your concerns , any specific intelligent questions ?


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Oscar said:


> Here you again.. bringing in racial oppression and national identity issues to divert from a topic on religious identity.
> What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?
> The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..
> But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..
> And to add insult to Injury(not that they'll ever notice since they are too must trying to scream Vande mataram so that they fit in).. "Muslim" showboy actors are asked to play such roles.. perhaps a sweetner in the form of representations as lovers(mostly Muslim girls), Middle class extras and the ever growing usage of sacred spiritually oriented scripture degenerated as romantic or ridiculous expression.



your argument are verbose and confusing....

I can throw all of your argument out of window in a single stroke but i find it worthless.

I come to your basic premise of him being a show boy....

I understand your problem...this is because of the difference in political setup in India and pakistan. As you have been rules under military dictatorship for so long that you have been conditioned that you think that only few people are the rulers and rest of them are show boys.. In India it doesn't work that way. As you have accused pf him being a show boy...prove it....

As far as bollywood is concerned you people are one of the biggest fan of it.....I guess it again failed the two nation theory

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Pakistanisage said:


> My dear Aryan, if there was no Pakistan, Indian Muslims would have been nearly 40% of India's Population. That was Nehru's worst nightmare and Jinnah did solve Nehru's " Muslim Problem " . Four out of ten Indians would have been Muslims and no Indian could ever become a PM without Muslim vote. Today 13.65% of Indians are muslims and the Indian Politicians do somersaults to vy for Muslim vote.



They may well somersault for the vote but I live in the UK and I have faced discrimination. But I know one country that I belong to that no matter what I face I will not face discrimination on the basis of religion.

Oh and I think there were 40% Muslims in Bosnia and we know what happened there

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> your argument are verbose and confusing....
> 
> I can throw all of your argument out of window in a *single stroke but i find it worthless.*
> 
> I come to your basic premise of him being a show boy....
> 
> I understand your problem...this is because of the difference in political setup in India and pakistan. As you have been rules under military dictatorship for so long that you have been conditioned that you think that only few people are the rulers and rest of them are show boys.. In India it doesn't work that way. As you have accused pf him being a show boy...prove it....
> 
> As far as bollywood is concerned you people are one of the biggest fan of it.....I guess it again failed the two nation theory



Please go ahead.. we are all waiting.
All you are doing is shooting canards.
If the Maulana was not a showboy.. then the Indian Muslim should reflect it.
either that you are unable to answer with actual related proof on the Indian Muslim.
and not derailments on 71, Balochistan and the usual BS you guys bring up.
Come on... convince me that the Indian Muslim is not suppressed..
When it comes to Bollywood, yeah we love it.. sometimes it gets very accurate.... Have you seen that movie "Anwar"?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Nitin Goyal

and if talk of political power...In recently held UP election 65 seats have won by Muslim candidates.


----------



## Pakistanisage

Aeronaut said:


> Thanks for your concerns , any specific intelligent questions ?




You have to admit that the Prophecies made by Maulana Azad about East Pakistan breaking away did come true. Azad believed that Indian Muslims were a force to reckon with as long as they stayed United. Today, Indian Muslims are divided up in three groups and have been weakened as predicted by Azad.

By the way, Maulana Azad was one of us ( Muslims of Sub Continent ), not an Enemy and as such deserves some respect.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Oscar said:


> Please go ahead.. we are all waiting.
> All you are doing is shooting canards.
> If the Maulana was not a showboy.. then the Indian Muslim should reflect it.



what you want to know -- that indian muslim population is ever increasing in India unlike 

They live in peace and harmony with all other religious groups

That we had three muslim president

That we have people like azim premji and lot and lots of muslim politicians and ministers.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Fairly unrelated example.. since that area was never meant to be part of a larger state in the original vision anyway.
> And if there was Hindu-Muslim Unity.. why did you guys not absorb Bangladesh there and then?
> And why are you having difficulty now.. you have all the resources if not for those Muslims wishing that they not be enslaved.. Muslims that are labelled as "razakars" even though their parents fought to gain independence from Pakistan.
> 
> You are confusing a racial issue with a communal one.
> 
> Azad's presidency was somewhat better than Hamid Karzai's.. I must agree.. since he actually did formulate some policies.
> But its symbolism was pretty much the same.



Oscar,

Indians tend to bring 1971 whenever they have no replies left or they can't salvage their pea-sized ego.

What the reality is:

That 1971 made Bangladesh an independent state........and the fact that they portray India as having chopped off Pakistan....but in reality if that was the case, they why can't India chop off any more Pakistan?

They couldn't do shyt when Pakistan gave part of it's Kashmir to China right under India's nose. 

They are a sorry and shameless nation.


PDF is just going down the drain because of them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pakistanisage

Aryan_B said:


> They may well somersault for the vote but I live in the UK and I have faced discrimination. But I know one country that I belong to that no matter what I face I will not face discrimination on the basis of religion.
> 
> Oh and I think there were 40% Muslims in Bosnia and we know what happened there




To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.

Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.

I can assure you 40% Muslims would not have faced any discrimination. Forty Percent of Population can bring the govt wheels to a screeching halt.

And that is all Maulana Azad was trying to point out.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> what you want to know -- that indian muslim population is ever increasing in India unlike
> 
> They live in peace and harmony with all other religious groups
> 
> That we had three muslim president
> 
> That we have people like azim premji and lot and lots of muslim politicians and ministers.



Dude ..we've had a Hindu Chief Justice.. so what?
The population is increasing because people like to have sex.. its nothng to do with them being Muslims.
What is the president's actual governing power apart from being head of state..
We've had martial law presidents.. who actually could do something.. not that it was legal..
but in an actual democratic setup that India is.. what is a president if nothing more than a "showpiece" for the people.
My mother's uncle is in politics in UP dude.. he babbles on how he is sidetracked all the time due to both religious and racial reasons....how he doesn't actually have power..
Look at your own Kerala.. Muslims actually developed some sort of an identity there..
why was one section so successful but the rest could not match it.?
Majority perhaps?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LURKER

Pakistanisage said:


> To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.
> 
> Muslims are Martial people who ruled{some parts of} India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.



there corrected for ya


----------



## SQ8

LURKER said:


> there corrected for ya



corrected even further



> Muslims are Martial people who ruled{large sections of} India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.





Pakistanisage said:


> To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.
> 
> Muslims are Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.
> 
> *I can assure you 40% Muslims would not have faced any discrimination*. Forty Percent of Population can bring the govt wheels to a screeching halt.



But that 40% was never acceptable.. to those that wished to rule...to those in the congress.. and to some vested interests in the league as well.
that 40% was never acceptable during the 37 elections either.. the Congress government gave ample proof of that with the good maulana playing nero's fiddle even then.



Nitin Goyal said:


> and if talk of political power...In recently held UP election 65 seats have won by Muslim candidates.


 
Out of how many?
In what positions of party leadership.. and do what effect?
How many of them will reflect in the Lok Sabha?

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Pakistanisage

Oscar said:


> But that 40% was never acceptable.. to those that wished to rule...to those in the congress.. and to some vested interests in the league as well.
> that 40% was never acceptable during the 37 elections either.. the Congress government gave ample proof of that with the good maulana playing nero's fiddle even then.



And that is just the point, Oscar. Jinnah asked for Muslims to get 40% quota in govt jobs in return for Muslim support for undivided India. Nehru rebuffed this offer. Had Jinnah persisted , sooner or later India would have relinquished, if not in 1947 then maybe in the 50's. You cannot ignore 40% of population in a democracy and go on.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## newdelhinsa

Oscar said:


> Dude ..we've had a Hindu Chief Justice.. so what?
> The population is increasing because people like to have sex.. its nothng to do with them being Muslims.
> What is the president's actual governing power apart from being head of state..
> We've had martial law presidents.. who actually could do something.. not that it was legal..
> but in an actual democratic setup that India is.. what is a president if nothing more than a "showpiece" for the people.
> My mother's uncle is in politics in UP dude.. he babbles on how he is sidetracked all the time due to both religious and racial reasons....how he doesn't actually have power..
> Look at your own Kerala.. Muslims actually developed some sort of an identity there..
> why was one section so successful but the rest could not match it.?
> Majority perhaps?



So you are talking about Hindu Show boys of Pakistan ?

...............................................................

I never knew Jinnah hated Hindus so much, I have lost my respect for him; I am afraid. 

Muslim and bigotry is synonymous, I think.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

Pakistanisage said:


> You have to admit that the Prophecies made by Maulana Azad about East Pakistan breaking away did come true. Azad believed that Indian Muslims were a force to reckon with as long as they stayed United. Today, Indian Muslims are divided up in three groups and have been weakened as predicted by Azad.
> 
> By the way, Maulana Azad was one of us ( Muslims of Sub Continent ), not an Enemy and as such deserves some respect.



Maulana azad's concept was flawed , Muslims cannot be united -easily-. Bangladesh broke away because of our ill drafted policies not because Maulana azad's so called prophecies. Even if Muslims were united , we still would have been a minority - so where is the logic ? - would you live in a separate country according to your rules in a majority or a country dominated by hindus as a minority even with all your strength ?



newdelhinsa said:


> So you are talking about Hindu Show boys of Pakistan ?
> 
> ...............................................................
> 
> I never knew Jinnah hated Hindus so much, I have lost my respect for him; I am afraid.
> 
> Muslim and bigotry is synonymous, I think.



All Muslims are bigoted , all Hindus are the best humans can produce - happy ?



Pakistanisage said:


> To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.
> 
> Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.
> 
> I can assure you 40% Muslims would not have faced any discrimination. Forty Percent of Population can bring the govt wheels to a screeching halt.
> 
> And that is all Maulana Azad was trying to point out.



Many have came up with argument , id prefer majority separate state over minority. Muslims & Hindus are two substances like water and crude - they cannot mix together - cannot coexist together- at least not under a Hindu rule.

15% Muslim population has 3% share in the Military and in the parliament , this is how a large minority CAN be avoided in a democracy.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## aristocrat

Source plz,title of the book??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bang Galore

Oscar said:


> corrected even further
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that 40% was never acceptable.. to those that wished to rule...to those in the congress.. and to some vested interests in the league as well.
> that 40% was never acceptable during the 37 elections either.. the Congress government gave ample proof of that with the good maulana playing nero's fiddle even then.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of how many?
> In what positions of party leadership.. and do what effect?
> How many of them will reflect in the Lok Sabha?


 


Man, you got your wish; your own country! Good luck & from the tenor of your posts, good riddance! Now kindly stop pissing on the graves of our heroes. Move on...we get it... you don't believe in all the "hindu-muslim unity" stuff. Fine ! Make your country whatever you want, leave us to our & Azad's "delusions". I'm glad your leaders were great otherwise we would still be having this cancerous growth within us. I have no illusions of an united India that could have survived. While we may not accept the concept of the 2NT, we realise that we could have the India we wanted only & only when you chaps separated. So, it worked out best for all of us -for the ones who believed in Azad & the ones who believed in Jinnah. Whatever connections existed in the past, they don't anymore, some 65 years after the separation. We like our constitution & the nature of our state however flawed & untenable you think it is. Azad is our hero, we could not care less what you chaps thought of him .

Reactions: Like Like:
19


----------



## aristocrat

To me jinnahs outburst depicts his arrogance.COuldnt he have argued reasonably without making personal attacks.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kambojaric

Pakistanisage said:


> To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.
> 
> *Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.*
> 
> I can assure you 40% Muslims would not have faced any discrimination. Forty Percent of Population can bring the govt wheels to a screeching halt.
> 
> And that is all Maulana Azad was trying to point out.



Because we were an uneducated, impoverished 40 percent with massive ethno-linguistic differences amongst us. How often does it happen that Muslims come to unanimous agreements? Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns have so many arguments, forget having Tamil, Bengali Muslims in there as well with whom we have little or nothing in common other than religion. In short we would have just been an unorganized, anpar 40 percent at the mercy of Hindu elites. These times arent "martial" times anymore. The rich and well educated rule the world today. Let me give you a personal example. My grandfather graduated from Punjab University in the 1920s. Of the 40 something students in his graduation picture he is the *only* muslim. This tells you the state we were in then. Despite all of Pakistans massive errors and failures we can move forward as a nation and inshallah correct these errors as a proud independent Muslim nation.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bang Galore

Bamxa said:


> Because we were an uneducated, impoverished 40 percent with massive ethno-linguistic differences amongst us. How often does it happen that Muslims come to unanimous agreements? Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns have so many arguments, forget having Tamil, Bengali Muslims in there as well with whom we have little or nothing in common other than religion. *In short we would have just been an unorganized, anpar 40 percent at the mercy of Hindu elites*.



..and you think Hindus are a well organised homogenous unit?

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Kambojaric

Bang Galore said:


> ..and you think Hindus are a well organised homogenous unit?



Of course not, but the Muslims being the poorer, less educated community and a minority on top of that would be at the mercy of Hindu elites. I wish the best for India with its secular project, i genuinely do, but for men like Jinnah they saw beforehand that things dont always stay rosy. One small spark and all hell can break loose between the religious groups. partition, Gujrat 2002, Sikh temple are all examples of how fast small events can escalate into something massive. Azad believed in his ideals, fair enough, but for me what Jinnah did (with the aid of Nehru and his centralized policies) has meant the Muslims of the north west are masters of their own fate.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## newdelhinsa

aristocrat said:


> Source plz,title of the book??



Yes that is what I was thinking. 

I have yet to see any great leaders of the world talking like a bigot and openly offending one religion to convince a person by giving him sake of the same religion both belong to.

OP has started that thread to show some kind of positivity on Mr. Jinnah but it has ended up doing the contrary.



aristocrat said:


> To me jinnahs outburst depicts his arrogance.COuldnt he have argued reasonably without making personal attacks.



You men he was trolling ?


----------



## Kambojaric

Som Anand provides some clues in this regard.
He remarks that the Hindu and Muslim communities, &#8216;lived like two streams, flowing side by
side but never meeting at any point&#8217;.69 He dilates further:

To keep themselves away from the Muslims&#8217; &#8220;polluting touch&#8221;, the Hindus had set-up
many barriers in their daily life. My mother, for example, would never allow any Muslim to
enter her kitchen. No cooked food was accepted from them. I remember how, if any of our
Muslim neighbours even sent any special dish for my father, it never went beyond the dining
table, a place where she did not take her own food. While eating she would never allow any of
her Muslim friends or neighbours to touch her. During my childhood such inhibitions were
generally not observed by male members of educated Hindu families. (Women have always
been more conservative in these matters.) Some decades earlier these rules formed a strict
code of conduct for all, no matter how educated or enlightened a person might be&#8230;.

The absurdities of such Hindu restrictions notwithstanding, the Muslims had come to
accept them as a law of nature. Their older generation knew the limits of a relationship with
the Hindus and considered it improper even to offer them drinking water from their
utensils&#8230;. The Hindus have always complained of Muslim fanaticism but they have never
understood that the walls they raised around themselves could have not resulted in any other
attitude&#8230;.
It took many centuries for the Hindus of Punjab to realise how absurd and harmful
their anti-Muslim prejudices were. In this respect the first current of change was felt during
the Khilafat movement in the early twenties. Though the spirit of Hindu-Muslim amity
received many reverses in later years, at the social level the urban elite had changed its code
of conduct for the better. This was due, in part, [to] Western education. What this change
meant was evident in my father&#8217;s attitude. When he was young, my mother used to recall, he
would come back to change his clothes if a Muslim had touched him while walking in the
bazaar; but during my childhood in Model Town, father had several Muslim friends and he
considered my mother&#8217;s inhibitions a sign of backwardness

*The economic basis of communal violence*

The economic structure in Lahore surely compounded the social cleavages. Yunas Adeeb
writes, &#8216; The Hindus dominated money lending, import and export of cloth, the business in
gold and silver and in food-grain&#8230;. The Muslims worked outside Lahore city in the fields.
They cultivated vegetables and wheat, and most were craftsmen and artisans&#8217;.71


http://www.sacw.net/partition/june2004IshtiaqAhmed.pdf
____________________________________________________________________________

The socio economic structure of the British India was such that even in majority muslim areas, the Muslims were the labourers, peasents and the Hindus were the well off businessmen. The only rich Muslim community was the landed aristocracy who made just a fraction of the total Muslim populace. This in itself should help Pakistanis realize what freedom they live in now. Yes the country is one unorganized mess but at least we know that we wont be stopped from climbing up the social ladder on the basis of our religion.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## genmirajborgza786

both M.A Jinnah & Maulana Abul kalam azad were great men worthy of admiration & respect , now going back to history whether we like it or not but their was an issue of Hindu-Muslim conflicts & the legitimate concerns of the Muslims regarding the balance of power & fear of a majority domination ( i mean you cannot have the Muslim league & the Congress sit side by side with out accommodating the concerns & fears of the other ) & thats were the cabinet mission plan came into the spectrum , a set up in which India would be united to which both Jinnah & Gandhi had agreed but Nehru & Patel did not, plus the ideological difference's between Jinnah & Azad was not the main problem here & as i pointed out it was the rejection of the cabinet mission plan by Nehru instigated by Patel when both Quaid e azam Mohamed Ali Jinnah & Mahatma Gandhijee had agreed to it, but it was none other then Nehru & Patel who hold on to their stubbornness of a centrist state craft policy while the cabinet mission plan was all about a federation oriented form of statecraft under which India would be united as well as the concerns of the Muslims would be addressed, so i don't see from where does Maulana Azad & Mohamed ALI Jinnah's political differences could have played any role in the partition. as i said both were great men of integrity & honor & i respect them as elders. lets keep the problem where it was & it was the failure of the cabinet mission plan & we all know who was behind it

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## KS

At the end of the day, thank god Jinnah won and not Azad !

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## KS

Aeronaut said:


> Im sure gentleman's soul would be repenting on his miscalculations -- after Babri Mosque - Gujrat massacres - Kashmiri mass graves. I am sure if he was alive today he would have no shame in saying that in the battle of Two Nation Theory VS Hindu Muslim Unity theory -- later is totally failed - it was bound to.



Dude: not going into the creation of Pakistan, of which I am a big supporter, Jinnah would be spinning at 10000 RPM in his grave if he were to see Pakistan today and how the Muslims are killing Muslims at a much much bigger rate than Hindus are killing Muslims in India.

So let's go easy. There is no need to criticize one to praise other.

Reactions: Like Like:
14


----------



## KS

Oscar said:


> What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?
> The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..
> But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..



Do you realize while criticizing Azad for being a showman you are actually asking for the same "showman"ship from India by asking us what names we have kept for our weapons ?

And I'm damn sure if we had indeed kept some Islamic names then that would have been dismissed as "showmanship". Either way you people will say the same.

We dont indulge in gimmicks like Pakistan by naming our weapons after looters/invaders who did nothing but pillage our territory...Abdali, Babur, AL khalid..seriously ? Babur in his babur nama gloats how he made a mountain of skulls from the pashtuns (in present day Afg-Pak) he killed on his way to India..should we also indulge in the same act ?

What is wrong in Muslims themselves identifying with the pre-Islamic past ? Did you people suddenly jump into this land with the arrival of MBQ.. Do you even understand that some are nothing but the Sanskrit names of the elements of nature ? This is why I respect the Iranians amongst all the Muslims...they dont strive for an artificial identity and their primary identity is Persian/Iranian...next comes muslim or whatever...Ask a Iranian Muslim who he respects more - Nader Shah (a Muslim) or Cyrus (a kuffar)....unanimously they will answer Cyrus and the Iranians still curse the Arabs for destroying their beautiful culture and religion..

p.s.: Anyway for your info the Mi-35 Hind is named Akbar in the IAF, if it soothes anything for you.



Oscar said:


> Come on... convince me that the Indian Muslim is not suppressed..


 
Frankly,there is no need to convince you of anything. That 50% of the Muslims rejected the "vision" of Jinnah is proof alone of its shallowness.

p.s: Personally I am a supporter of Jinnah's policies and I thank god he won against Congress.



Oscar said:


> My mother's uncle is in politics in UP dude.. he babbles on how he is sidetracked all the time due to both religious and racial reasons....how he doesn't actually have power..


 
UP politics is one of the MOST pro-Muslim in India and if he thinks he is sidetracked then his political acumen sucks and he should consider retiring giving ground for more capable players...No offence..


p.s.: Regarding Kerala..they are not majority there..they make up of 22% of the population...not much difference from the 19% in UP.



Pakistanisage said:


> Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.



That is BS and I am tired of exposing it.

Go read yourself about the 1000 years buffalo manure yourself..

Hint : the Delhi sultanates started in 1206 and the Mughals breathed their last in 1756 or 1757. 

And even in between they maintained their rule over North and Central India only by alliance with a the Hindu kingdoms like Rajputs and not by crushing anyone...they tried crushing the Marathas and were shown their true place.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## newdelhinsa

genmirajborgza786 said:


> both Jinnah & Abul kalam azad were great men now going back to history whether we like it or not but their was an issue of Hindu-Muslims conflicts & legitimate concerns of the Muslims regarding the question & fear of a majority domination ( i mean you cannot have the Muslim league & the congress sit side by side with out accommodating the concerns & fears of the other ) thats why were the cabinet mission plan came, a set up in which India would be united to which both Jinnah & Gandhi had agreed but Nehru & Patel did not, plus the ideological difference's between Jinnah & Azad was not the main problem was & as i pointed out was the rejection of the cabinet mission plan by Nehru instigated by Patel when both Quaid e azam Mohamed Ali Jinnah & Mahatma Gandhijee had agreed to it but it was none other then Nehru & Patel who hold on to their stubbornness of an centrist state craft policy while the cabinet mission plan was all about a federation oriented form of statecraft under which India would be united as well as the concerns of the Muslims would also be addressed, so i don't see from where does Maulana Azad & Mohamed ALI Jinnah's political differences could have played any role in the partition as i said both were great men of integrity & honor & i respect them as elders. lets keep the problem where it is & it was the failure of the cabinet mission plan & we all know who was behind it



For all that years everyone knew that it was traction between two policies and disagreement between Congress and ML. But the kind of evidence is produced by OP suggest it was never technical of Jinnah but a Muslim of Jinnah hating Hindus lead to all this. Congress-I was a political party and was suppose to trade the best outcome and be diplomatic; they did the same.

As suggested by many Indians the patrician was good at the end of the day but from now I wouldn't reject completely the Pakistanis who reject his first address to be secular. I believe they might have a point to ponder. 

Its a shock.


----------



## Rusty

KS said:


> Dude: not going into the creation of Pakistan, of which I am a big supporter, Jinnah would be spinning at 10000 RPM in his grave if he were to see Pakistan today and how the Muslims are killing Muslims at a much much bigger rate than Hindus are killing Muslims in India.
> 
> So let's go easy. There is no need to criticize one to praise other.



Do you think that Pakistan will exist in this state forever?
Every country goes through ups and downs. Even American's fought a civil war with themselves. 
India had low points in 62, 84, 2002, etc. 
Pakistan's state at the moment is at it's lowest point, and this provides you Indians endless enjoyment which is proof in itself that you people are still angry about partition. 
There is a term for what you Indians are going through. Cognitive dissidence. Meaning that if you didn't get what you wanted, you convince yourself that you never wanted it in the first place. It's a self defense mechanism to prevent people like you from going crazy. Although one can argue that it's not very effective

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## KS

Rusty said:


> Do you think that Pakistan will exist in this state forever?



Honestly no...I foresee a much darker future seeing how Pak is going. But that is just me.




Rusty said:


> Every country goes through ups and downs. Even American's fought a civil war with themselves.
> India had low points in 62, 84, 2002, etc.



62 was a low..? Seriously. ?...it was a border skirmish with no territorial change and played the part of waking our peace loving govt..

2002..yeah it was a low point in few districts in Gujarat...except that nothing...




Rusty said:


> Pakistan's state at the moment is at it's lowest point, and this provides you Indians endless enjoyment which is proof in itself that you people are still angry about partition.



BS !

If at all there is some one who is happier than Pakistanis about Partition, its me. Think about it, you will get the reason. A much deeper reason than any of your shallow conspiracy theories.




Rusty said:


> There is a term for what you Indians are going through. Cognitive dissidence. Meaning that if you didn't get what you wanted, you convince yourself that you never wanted it in the first place. It's a self defense mechanism to prevent people like you from going crazy. Although one can argue that it's not very effective


 
Whatever.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## DelhiDareDevil

Ignoring religion, its no doubt that Kalam was the greater and intellectual human being.


----------



## gubbi

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !





Oscar said:


> There should be freedom of expression as long as it does not cross limits.
> A fondness for the Maulana does not.
> Racial undertones in *personal attacks do cross limits* and will be punished severely.



Now if one reads Jinnah's reply, what does it sound like? Why is Maulana Azad vilified when he held the nation above religion? Jinnah asks the Maulana to resign, but when he himself was the president of Congress, it was usual politics? Where was his 'self-respect' then?

As for your comment about "Anwar", do you really believe that bollywood depicts reality? I can give you numerous other examples to contradict, and in a very entertaining manner, the one example you gave.

Maulana Azad loved the nation more than anything else and this reflected in his decisions. Jinnah payed politics as and when it suited him. Jinnah created a nation built on the premise that Muslims cannot coexist peacefully with other religions, in this case Hindus. And yet, India stands tall. Pakistan OTOH, officially discriminates some of its very own minorities!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Rig Vedic

Azad asked for a straightforward clarification.

Jinnah showed his petty vindictive nature by letting loose a personal diatribe.

At the end of the day, it is good that Jinnah got his way.


----------



## Rig Vedic

Oscar said:


> But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..



The irony is that Jinnah's grandfather was himself a Gujarati Hindu.

Jinnah believed that by getting converted, he now belonged to a different civilization in conflict with his pre-conversion civilization.


----------



## Vinod2070

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !



I felt it was more in the nature of personal attack.

Anyway, it has always befuddled me how just a second generation convert (that Mr. Jinnah was) could totally forget his own identity of tens of thousands of years and assumed that of the invaders!



> The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state.



I can understand that conversion can change your faith system.

*Does it change your history?

The obvious answer is: It doesn't and leads to the identity crisis that we can all see at display.

The only way to sustain the charade is to go ever deeper into the pits of hatred towards your real identity and fake ever more to be what you are not.

Always running just to stand where you are.

Does it work: by all indications, it is a spectacular failure.
*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jha

I am a huge supporter of Jinnah's policies. Just love the debates in pakistan about Aug'11 Speech. 
cant imagine areas like FATA in my country. Dont want to imagine people like Sami-ul-Haq as president of Defence Council for India. Jinnah got what he wanted and deserved. may he rest in piece..

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Vinod2070

Oscar said:


> BUT.. when it comes to the exertion of a voice.. the seat of power..The co-existence is impossible unless one side is completely suppressed.


 
Like you have done in Pakistan? By totally suppressing the Hindus?

And now you are forced to assume that the other side has to have the same low standards and the same sense of morality (or lack thereof).

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## KS

jha said:


> I am a huge supporter of Jinnah's policies. Just love the debates in pakistan about Aug'11 Speech.
> cant imagine areas like FATA in my country.* Dont want to imagine people like Sami-ul-Haq as president of Defence Council for India*. Jinnah got what he wanted and deserved. may he rest in piece..



I LOLed....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jbond197

Oscar said:


> Dude ..we've had a Hindu Chief Justice.. so what?


Hindu Chief justice proves what?? Nothing, as even with Hindu Chief Justices, Hindu girls are forcefully & openly kidnapped and converted.. No one raise a voice.. And Hindus can not because if they do then they will be killed in the name of blasphemy..



> The population is increasing because people like to have sex.. its nothng to do with them being Muslims.



On the other hand, it seems Hindus in Pakistan stopped liking sex or it could be that their girls and families were kidnapped and converted on gun points. Now if you ask me - does that have anything to do with Muslims? then my answer will be - Yes, Muslims are doing the deed to which even the educated Muslims have turned blind eyes. 



> What is the president's actual governing power apart from being head of state..
> We've had martial law presidents.. who actually could do something.. not that it was legal..
> but in an actual democratic setup that India is.. what is a president if nothing more than a "showpiece" for the people.



Indian Muslim Presidents have had enjoyed much more power and respect than any of the Pakistani Muslim president any day.. So what are Pakistani Muslim PM/president?? Aren't they just showpieces or do they have any governing power in the country of Muslims?



> My mother's uncle is in politics in UP dude.. he babbles on how he is sidetracked all the time due to both religious and racial reasons....how he doesn't actually have power..



Stop BSing!! That's a white lie.. Muslim leaders actually are very strong in the state.. I don't know which area your Mom's uncle is from? But Muslim leaders from Azamgarh, Aligarh, Meerut, Agra, Muzzafar Nagar, Moradabad and many other cities are actually big time goons and forms a big support base for both SP and BSP. So stop talking about marginalization.. These goons infact holds strong positions in SP & BSP. And it is a fact that for some weird reason, Muslims in UP only elect a goon and a normal Muslim leader are shown the door. 



> Look at your own Kerala.. Muslims actually developed some sort of an identity there..
> why was one section so successful but the rest could not match it.?
> Majority perhaps?



Education is the reason not the Majority.. But you know what we can not really help those who don't want to help themselves. If the community decides to vote for goons for religious reasons then god only can help them.. In Kerala that's not the scenario, people vote for righteous or not the established goons. 

And you are mistaken if you think Kerala is Muslim majority.. It is Hindu majority state and that's the main reason it is peaceful

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

Oscar said:


> Here you again.. bringing in racial oppression and national identity issues to divert from a topic on religious identity.
> *What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?*
> The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..



They even have separate Muslim laws governing their civil affairs. Nowhere else in the world you will find it in any non Muslim majority country.

This even when our constitution prefers a uniform civil law.



> But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..



There was no "Muslim rule". There was the rule by some bigot invaders and that was kicked out.

No native Muslim from all of the subcontinent was ever a ruler of any part of India. They were the subjects as much as any others.

Just like the Christians from the subcontinent don't consider themselves the rulers or inheritors of the British rule, Muslims should see the obvious.



> And to add insult to Injury(not that they'll ever notice since they are too must trying to scream Vande mataram so that they fit in).. "Muslim" showboy actors are asked to play such roles.. perhaps a sweetner in the form of representations as lovers(mostly Muslim girls), Middle class extras and the ever growing usage of sacred spiritually oriented scripture degenerated as romantic or ridiculous expression.



Whining...

No one is forced to sing Vande mataram. Your concern seems to be why we Hindus don't act like Dhimmis. That is the only way to satisfy you (temporarily). I doubt even that will work for long.



> Hence the fact that it was not tolerable.. the idea of having Muslims actually being meaningful in the Indian state.



It is not tolerable to those who derive their raison d'atre from the two nation theory.

And that is you guys.



> Again.. the idea is not that Hindus and Muslims cannot co-exist.. they can.. they do .. all over the world.. in communities where neither has a say in policies.



An extension of the justification of TNT which you need every living second.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## jbond197

Vinod2070 said:


> I felt it was more in the nature of personal attack.
> 
> Anyway, it has always befuddled me how just a second generation convert (that Mr. Jinnah was) could totally forget his own identity of tens of thousands of years and assumed that of the invaders!



Such personal attacks as in the OP on A. Kalam Azad by Jinnah, were in fact out of frustration for not being able to achieve the desired results his Muslim Industrialists & landlord clientele wished for..

Out of desperation, he first called names for likes of Kalam and Abdul Gaffar Khan, before finally giving call for turning streets red..

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Vinod2070

> Look at your own Kerala.. Muslims actually developed some sort of an identity there..
> why was one section so successful but the rest could not match it.?
> Majority perhaps?



Someone already pointed out that Muslims in Kerala are no more in population ration than in UP.

So you answered it yourself. The state of India provides the same opportunities, the Muslims of UP are more backward in their social attitudes and that reflects in the indicators.

Even they are doing better than the average Pakistani Muslims on most indicators though!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## KS

Vinod2070 said:


> Your concern seems to be why we Hindus don't act like Dhimmis.



Precisely.

And you can see that mindset so clearly when the familiar canard of "for 1000 years, we ruled you" pop up every now and then. The TNT , IMO did not arise due to any genuine concerns..the Muslim elites of Lucknow and Bihar understood that they would not be able to rule over the country like the kings did once the British left and that their community would not be able to compete with Hindus one on one either in education or economics.

Solution - get our own country where we could rule. But it seems the Panjabi landlords had an altogether different plan for them. A proverbial anti-climax for them.


----------



## Vinod2070

*Anyway, the two nation theory and the creation of Pakistan and all that it entailed, all that mean that they have no right to demand the things they are demanding of India.

It was a permanent event. It demonstrated forever to the world what conversion to Islam means to your sense of history, identity and nationalism.

The theory if extrapolated means that Muslims can't be the same nation as any other religious people. They will always be a nation unto themselves and that will drive their sense of loyalty.*

And we can all see it in action everywhere.

We see many of the same proponents of two nation theory go out to non Islamic countries though. They are not able to integrate anywhere and remain "alienated".

It was a good theory and it was true for those who believed in it.

We are both happy to be rid of each other and the logical next step is not obsess with each others' internal affairs and not make ridiculous demands on each other.

Our demand is simple: Stop sending the "non state actors" and stop comparing yourself to us. You are part of the "Islamic ummah" (whatever that means) and should compare yourself to Afghanistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and so on.

They are your people now. We share nothing now if ever we did.



KS said:


> Precisely.
> 
> And you can see that mindset so clearly when the familiar canard of "for 1000 years, we ruled you" pop up every now and then. The TNT , IMO did not arise due to any genuine concerns..the Muslim elites of Lucknow and Bihar understood that they would not be able to rule over the country like the kings did once the British left and that their community would not be able to compete with Hindus one on one either in education or economics.
> 
> Solution - get our own country where we could rule. But it seems the Panjabi landlords had an altogether different plan for them. *A proverbial anti-climax for them.*


 
Well, you are right of course.

I have one phrase for them and I see the same thing too often.

*They were too clever by half.......*

For their own good.

And we are glad we are rid of them. Permanently.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jbond197

Oscar said:


> The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..



All the above names and their significance are very much current and are part of thriving Hindu culture. I don't know what exactly you meant by ancient Pre-Islamic culture. As a matter of fact, this culture was thriving when Islam was not born and it is there on its feet today and it will be standing upright much longer after few other hateful culture disappears..

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## shree835

I Don thinks A.Kalam Azad needs anyone's certificate... He was a Legend...And We INDIANs respect them a lot...leaving in denial is not going to change the fact.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## acetophenol

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !



which book is that?


----------



## Rig Vedic

Vinod2070 said:


> Our demand is simple: Stop sending the "non state actors" and stop comparing yourself to us. You are part of the "Islamic ummah" (whatever that means) and should compare yourself to Afghanistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and so on.



For one thing it is impossible to get rid of the pre-Islamic heritage ... they would have to stop speaking Punjabi, Sindhi and Urdu.

Secondly one's sense of identity is a personal matter, and it can change over time, as one learns more.

So we should not make blanket prescriptions for entire populations of nations. You can't put Jinnah and Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan in the same category.

It is not possible to divorce a section of South Asia from its history, no matter how hard some people may try. This is an internal issue of the Indian subcontinent, and will be resolved within the Indian subcontinent. In the long run, truth will prevail (Satyameva Jayate), as it always does.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## chitti

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !



what a troll this reply is. Now I know where the pak genes on pdf come from LOL

OK, I dont know how authentic this is.. A telegram , usually used for quick information conveying, in those days had extremely limited verbiage unlike the paragraph above. And next a telegram sent in mid 1940 was replied to in early 1941. Very weird.



Farah Sohail said:


> Love Quaid-e-Azam soooo much... He was such a dignified, straight forward, honorable, person..... Loved his reply to Maulana Abul Kalam Azad... Has any one read Abul Kalam Azad's "India wins freedom"?...I have read it, and hate him since....He was truly "Shah se ziada Shah ka wafadaar".....In his book, when u read, he never once stood up for Muslims...He was even more congressi, than Gandhi, I would say.....He always went out of his way, to deny Muslim rights..just to prove, how "loyal" he was..to the Congress....Read his book India wins freedom, and u will exactly know, what I am talking abt...
> 
> Truly love Jinnah..cant describe in words, my love and respect for him...He had everything, u would want in a leader... Integrity, honesty, sincerety, dignity, courage, self respect, faith........ Look, at our situation right now.. Once we had him as our our Governor General and now we have Zardari as President...


What difference between jinnah and george bush then.. He is saying either you are with me or against me ! You cant hold an opinion that differs from me. This is inlaid in the Pak foundation and India is just the opposite. Time ahs proven that congress is not a hindu org neither is india a hindu country.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Oscar said:


> Dude ..we've had a Hindu Chief Justice.. so what?
> The population is increasing because people like to have sex.. its nothng to do with them being Muslims.
> What is the president's actual governing power apart from being head of state..
> We've had martial law presidents.. who actually could do something.. not that it was legal..
> but in an actual democratic setup that India is.. what is a president if nothing more than a "showpiece" for the people.
> My mother's uncle is in politics in UP dude.. he babbles on how he is sidetracked all the time due to both religious and racial reasons....how he doesn't actually have power..
> Look at your own Kerala.. Muslims actually developed some sort of an identity there..
> why was one section so successful but the rest could not match it.?
> Majority perhaps?



pakistan is a perhaps a unique case where minorities population is not increasing in spite of having sex !! from 15 % to 3 %.

Hindu chief ministers vs Presidents  comical....ahhh I forgot that you can't have hindu president or PM.

the thing about 1971 was it was racial cleansing along with minority cleansing, didn't your PA kill HIndus of Bangladesh ??

How about it ???

Pakistan has institutionalized discrimination against minority (blasphemy laws etc..) we provide them equal opportunity.

Did your uncle tell u that he wants to come in Pakistan ? I know for sure that hundreds of hindus migrate to India from pakistan every month. What does that prove ?? Love to hear from you .....

Pakistanis should be last people who should mince a word regarding minorities.

You didn't prove that he was a show man...as u blamed him..onus is on you to prove it.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## 53fd

A.Kalam Azad was the kind of man who was ready to 'submit', & make compromises to ensure communal harmony & for the overall good of society; whereas Jinnah believed in liberty & equality for all, regardless of "size", color, creed. Both secular approaches, but very different ones as they were. 

Two very different approaches, I cannot say I do not, on some level, admire Azad sahab & his reconciliatory/appeasing approach for the overall good of society, in the larger context of Hindu-Muslim relations. But there was no doubt, that with people like Azad on the helm, we could see Indian Muslims being 'beaten down into the ground', as it is very evident in India today.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Nitin Goyal

bilalhaider said:


> *A.Kalam Azad was the kind of man who was ready to 'submit', & make compromises to ensure communal harmony & for the overall good of society*; whereas Jinnah believed in liberty & equality for all, regardless of "size", color, creed. Both secular approaches, but very different ones as they were.
> 
> Two very different approaches, I cannot say I do not, on some level, admire Azad sahab & his reconciliatory/appeasing approach for the overall good of society, in the larger context of Hindu-Muslim relations. But there was no doubt, that with people like Azad on the helm, we could see Indian Muslims being 'beaten down into the ground', as it is very evident in India today.



prove it.... he talked about the unity between hindu and muslim not for the submission of one community to the other which is the exact thing happening in Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

bilalhaider said:


> A.Kalam Azad was the kind of man who was ready to 'submit', & make compromises to ensure communal harmony & for the overall good of society; *whereas Jinnah believed in liberty & equality for all, regardless of "size", color, creed. Both secular approaches, but very different ones as they were.*



And Pakistan is the epitome of that "liberty & equality for all"?

Or most Islamic countries in the world?

At any time in history?

Jaziyah, Dhimmi, booty! Do these words count as "liberty & equality for all" in your dictionary?



> Two very different approaches, I cannot say I do not, on some level, admire Azad sahab & his reconciliatory/appeasing approach for the overall good of society, in the larger context of Hindu-Muslim relations. But there was no doubt, that with people like Azad on the helm, we could see Indian Muslims being 'beaten down into the ground', as it is very evident in India today.


 
I think it is impossible to satisfy you Arabs (and you remain an Arab even now).

You have a strange sense of entitlement that demands submission to you. You want others to submit to plunder and booty and pay you jaziyah and you want to live off that loot.

As it is not working out, you may consider returning back.

Sometimes, one tends to think that the Spain model of dealing with the Arab invaders was the right one.

They probably only understand that model.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Vinod2070

Pakistanisage said:


> To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to *Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.*
> 
> Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. *Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.*
> 
> I can assure you 40% Muslims would not have faced any discrimination. Forty Percent of Population can bring the govt wheels to a screeching halt.
> 
> And that is all Maulana Azad was trying to point out.


 
Some factual mistakes.

Muslims were 25% at the time of partition.

Most *Indian Muslims* are converts from low castes (mostly Dalits), they are not "Martial people".

They never ruled anyone. They were the ruled either by invaders in some small parts or by the local Dharmic kings for the vast majority of the history of this land.

In fact, the whole period of Islamic invasions and rules over parts o India is like a minor blip in our great ancient history and civilization.

A blip that is gone now from the major portion of our Dharmic lands. We survived those barbarians and their depredations when many other great civilizations collapsed and were ruined.

May be Persian civilization will revive too soon. We hear that most people there are waking up from the long slumber and going back to their roots.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rig Vedic

Vinod2070 said:


> Sometimes, one tends to think that the Spain model of dealing with the Arab invaders was the right one.



I would say that the converts should be educated about the atrocities suffered by their ancestors, at the hands of invaders. They should come to come to terms with, and take pride in, their own Dharmic heritage.

I admire how the Mexicans use the the occasion of Columbus Day every year to commemorate and condemn the Holocaust perpetrated by the European colonizers.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## punit

Oscar said:


> Idealogical differences are what make men..
> One was convinced that a submissive bow to a majority was in the best interests of a minority..
> the other showed how a minority need not live under a shadow as mice but face the sun as free human beings.
> 
> the bold part is important.. as idiots from both sides will come in and use bigotry to the hilt.



Jinnah Pakistan and its ideology failed in big way immediately after his death .. while Azad's vision of India continues to live despite all challenges.


----------



## Hobo1

Jinnah is real reason why Pakistan is in such a mess. Kalam Azad could forsee back then Pakistan would be able to sustain itself on its own and it would be a failure and so it has been.
It was Mr Jinnah who way back in 47 said this and invited America into Pakistan and rest is history. 



> "*America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America," *was Jinnah's reply. "Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed" -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- "the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves." He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. "Russia," confided Mr. Jinnah, "is not so very far away."
> 
> This had a familiar ring. In Jinnah's mind this brave new nation had no other claim on American friendship than this - that across a wild tumble of roadless mountain ranges lay the land of the BoIsheviks. I wondered whether the Quaid-i-Azam considered his new state only as an armored buffer between opposing major powers. He was stressing America's military interest in other parts of the world.* "America is now awakened," he said with a satisfied smile. Since the United States was now bolstering up Greece and Turkey, she should be much more interested in pouring money and arms into Pakistan*. "If Russia walks in here," he concluded, "the whole world is menaced."
> 
> *In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam's thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. "Surely America will build up our army," they would say to me. "Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in." *But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. "No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan."

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Vinod2070 said:


> And Pakistan is the epitome of that "liberty & equality for all"?
> 
> Or most Islamic countries in the world?
> 
> At any time in history?
> 
> Jaziyah, Dhimmi, booty! Do these words count as "liberty & equality for all" in your dictionary?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is impossible to satisfy you Arabs (and you remain an Arab even now).
> 
> You have a strange sense of entitlement that demands submission to you. You want others to submit to plunder and booty and pay you jaziyah and you want to live off that loot.
> 
> As it is not working out, you may consider returning back.
> 
> *Sometimes, one tends to think that the Spain model of dealing with the Arab invaders was the right one.
> 
> They probably only understand that model.*



indeed it is..... but there is only one problem you see just when the revisionist marathas thought that they had would it takes to pull down a spain alas they got a terrible reality check at the hands of *"Ahmed shah abdali"* my friend you can talk all the talk but when the time came you miserably failed to walk the walk 
_kyun sahi bola na bhau...._

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Porus

A never-ending senseless debate. Instead of giving the justification of the creation of Pakistan to Indians and to themselves. the Pakistanis better work towards the political stability and economic development of their country.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Manas

*Pakistanis just don't understand how indebted and thankful, Indians feel to Mr Jihhah inside their hearts for the creation Pakistan.*

Due to the creation of pakistan ,we don't have to live with anather 40 crores more muslims dragging country in a different direction than what majority hindus want, creating an incredible mess and giving rise to thousand mutinies resulting in bi
bigger partitions and consequential bloodshed.


Partition was a natural outcome .Thanks to Jihanah for leading the cause.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

Vinod2070 said:


> Some factual mistakes.
> 
> Muslims were 25% at the time of partition.
> 
> Most *Indian Muslims* are converts from low castes (mostly Dalits), they are not "Martial people".
> 
> They never ruled anyone. They were the ruled either by invaders in some small parts or by the local Dharmic kings for the vast majority of the history of this land.
> 
> In fact, the whole period of Islamic invasions and rules over parts o India is like a minor blip in our great ancient history and civilization.
> 
> A blip that is gone now from the major portion of our Dharmic lands. We survived those barbarians and their depredations when many other great civilizations collapsed and were ruined.
> 
> May be Persian civilization will revive too soon. We hear that most people there are waking up from the long slumber and going back to their roots.


The model demonstrated by Mongols under mighty Chengiz Khan and Hulagu Khan against Arabs were even more effective than that of Spaniards.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rig Vedic

genmirajborgza786 said:


> indeed it is but there is only one problem you see just when the revisionist marathas thought they had would it take to pull down a spain alas they got a terrible reality check at hands *"Ahmed shah abdali"* my friend you can talk all the talk but when the time came you miserably failed to walk the walk _sahi bola na bhau...._



And thereafter the Afghans were defeated by the Sikhs. Now Abdali's people in Afghanistan are our good friends ... the wheel of Time keeps turning, the story will go on.



Porus said:


> A never-ending senseless debate. Instead of giving the justification of the creation of Pakistan to Indians and to themselves. the Pakistanis better work towards the political stability and economic development of their country.



True, this debate is rather unnecessary.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Porus

Vinod2070 said:


> Most *Indian Muslims* are converts from low castes (mostly Dalits), they are not "Martial people".
> .



It's true and most of them are proud to be Dalits.


----------



## Vinod2070

genmirajborgza786 said:


> indeed it is..... but there is only one problem you see just when the revisionist marathas thought they had would it takes to pull down a spain alas they got a terrible reality check at hands *"Ahmed shah abdali"* my friend you can talk all the talk but when the time came you miserably failed to walk the walk
> _kyun sahi bola na bhau...._


 
Abdali was a bandit. He didn't change anything.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

Porus said:


> It's true and most of them are proud to be Dalits.


Well that means that they don't have martial blood.
Note:As Vinod said 80% of Muslims in India are Pasmandas or Dalit Converts.


----------



## Manas

bilalhaider said:


> Two very different approaches, I cannot say I do not, on some level, admire Azad sahab & his reconciliatory/appeasing approach for the overall good of society, in the larger context of Hindu-Muslim relations. B*ut there was no doubt, that with people like Azad on the helm, we could see Indian Muslims being 'beaten down into the ground', as it is very evident in India today.*



Buddy check again,the brightest and best muslims who have excelled and made a name around the world are the indian Muslims somuch so even pakistanis abroad identify themselves an indian muslims .

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rig Vedic

Porus said:


> It's true and most of them are proud to be Dalits.



Nothing wrong with being a Dalit.

However, considering how many Pakistanis there are with surnames like Cheema and Rathore and Bhatti (common in India too) it does appear that the converts were from a wide cross-section of society.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Rig Vedic said:


> And thereafter the Afghans were defeated by the Sikhs. Now Abdali's people in Afghanistan are our good friends ... the wheel of Time keeps turning, the story will go on.
> 
> 
> 
> True, this debate is rather unnecessary.


look you re a nice poster my post was directed @ those who were taunting the muslims & projecting the "spain model"
@ topic both Maulana Kalam & M.A Jinnah along with mahatma Gandhi were great leaders & deserves our utmost respect things went wrong after the rejection of the cabinet mission plan by Nehru


----------



## Porus

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> Well that means that they don't have martial blood.
> Note:As Vinod said 80% of Muslims in India are Pasmandas or Dalit Converts.



Yes, you are right. They are cowards, gutless people. I have no idea who Pasmandas or Dalit actually are, but it must be correct if he says so.


----------



## Manas

Porus said:


> It's true and most of them are proud to be Dalits.


Yaa, what i have heard Juggars and jatts now trace their lineage to Sheikhs and Syed from the Arab lands.


----------



## Varunastra

see both the dates...........took Jinnah long enough to reply i see


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

*The Man who knew the Future of Pakistan.
*​by Shorish Kashmiri, Matbooat Chattan, Lahore

*Congress president Maulana Abul Kalam Azad gave the following interview to journalist Shorish Kashmiri for a Lahore based Urdu magazine, Chattan, in April 1946.* It was a time when the Cabinet Mission was holding its proceedings in Delhi and Simla. Azad made some startling predictions during the course of the interview, saying that religious conflict would tear apart Pakistan and its eastern half would carve out its own future. He even said that Pakistans incompetent rulers might pave the way for military rule. According to Shorish Kashmiri, Azad had earmarked the early hours of the morning for him and the interview was conducted over a period of two weeks. This interview has not been published in any book so far  neither in the Azad centenary volumes nor in any other book comprising his writing or speeches  except for Kashmiris own book Abul Kalam Azad, which was printed only once by Matbooat Chattan Lahore, a now-defunct publishing house. Former Union Cabinet Minister Arif Mohammed Khan discovered the book after searching for many years and translated the interview for COVERT

Q: The Hindu Muslim dispute has become so acute that it has foreclosed any possibility of reconciliation. Dont you think that in this situation the birth of Pakistan has become inevitable?

A: If Pakistan were the solution of Hindu Muslim problem, then I would have extended my support to it. A section of Hindu opinion is now turning in its favour. By conceding NWFP, Sind, Balochistan and half of Punjab on one side and half of Bengal on the other, they think they will get the rest of India  a huge country that would be free from any claims of communal nature. If we use the Muslim League terminology, this new India will be a Hindu state both practically and temperamentally. This will not happen as a result of any conscious decision, but will be a logical consequence of its social realities. How can you expect a society that consists 90% of Hindus, who have lived with their ethos and values since prehistoric times, to grow differently? The factors that laid the foundation of Islam in Indian society and created a powerful following have become victim of the politics of partition. The communal hatred it has generated has completely extinguished all possibilities of spreading and preaching Islam. This communal politics has hurt the religion beyond measure. Muslims have turned away from the Quran. If they had taken their lessons from the Quran and the life of the Holy Prophet and had not forged communal politics in the name of religion then Islams growth would not have halted. By the time of the decline of the Mughal rule, the Muslims in India were a little over 22.5 million, that is about 65% of the present numbers. Since then the numbers kept increasing. If the Muslim politicians had not used the offensive language that embittered communal relations, and the other section acting as agents of British interests had not worked to widen the Hindu-Muslim breach, the number of Muslims in India would have grown higher. The political disputes we created in the name of religion have projected Islam as an instrument of political power and not what it is  a value system meant for the transformation of human soul. Under British influence, we turned Islam into a confined system, and following in the footsteps of other communities like Jews, Parsis and Hindus we transformed ourselves into a hereditary community. The Indian Muslims have frozen Islam and its message and divided themselves into many sects. Some sects were clearly born at the instance of colonial power. Consequently, these sects became devoid of all movement and dynamism and lost faith in Islamic values. The hallmark of Muslim existence was striving and now the very term is strange to them. Surely they are Muslims, but they follow their own whims and desires. In fact now they easily submit to political power, not to Islamic values. They prefer the religion of politics not the religion of the Quran. Pakistan is a political standpoint. Regardless of the fact whether it is the right solution to the problems of Indian Muslims, it is being demanded in the name of Islam. The question is when and where Islam provided for division of territories to settle populations on the basis of belief and unbelief. Does this find any sanction in the Quran or the traditions of the Holy Prophet? Who among the scholars of Islam has divided the dominion of God on this basis? If we accept this division in principle, how shall we reconcile it with Islam as a universal system? How shall we explain the ever growing Muslim presence in non-Muslim lands including India? Do they realise that if Islam had approved this principle then it would not have permitted its followers to go to the non-Muslim lands and many ancestors of the supporters of Pakistan would not have had even entered the fold of Islam? Division of territories on the basis of religion is a contraption devised by Muslim League. They can pursue it as their political agenda, but it finds no sanction in Islam or Quran. What is the cherished goal of a devout Muslim? Spreading the light of Islam or dividing territories along religious lines to pursue political ambitions? The demand for Pakistan has not benefited Muslims in any manner. How Pakistan can benefit Islam is a moot question and will largely depend on the kind of leadership it gets. The impact of western thought and philosophy has made the crisis more serious. The way the leadership of Muslim League is conducting itself will ensure that Islam will become a rare commodity in Pakistan and Muslims in India. This is a surmise and God alone knows what is in the womb of future. Pakistan, when it comes into existence, will face conflicts of religious nature. As far as I can see, the people who will hold the reins of power will cause serious damage to Islam. Their behaviour may result in the total alienation of the Pakistani youth who may become a part of non-religious movements. Today, in Muslim minority states the Muslim youth are more attached to religion than in Muslim majority states. You will see that despite the increased role of Ulema, the religion will lose its sheen in Pakistan.

Q: But many Ulema are with Quaid-e-Azam [M.A. Jinnah].

A: Many Ulema were with Akbare Azam too; they invented a new religion for him. Do not discuss individuals. Our history is replete with the doings of the Ulema who have brought humiliation and disgrace to Islam in every age and period. The upholders of truth are exceptions. How many of the Ulema find an honourable mention in the Muslim history of the last 1,300 years? There was one Imam Hanbal, one Ibn Taimiyya. In India we remember no Ulema except Shah Waliullah and his family. The courage of Alf Sani is beyond doubt, but those who filled the royal office with complaints against him and got him imprisoned were also Ulema. Where are they now? Does anybody show any respect to them?

Q: Maulana, what is wrong if Pakistan becomes a reality? After all, Islam is being used to pursue and protect the unity of the community.

A: You are using the name of Islam for a cause that is not right by Islamic standards. Muslim history bears testimony to many such enormities. In the battle of Jamal [fought between Imam Ali and Hadrat Aisha, widow of the Holy Prophet] Qurans were displayed on lances. Was that right? In Karbala the family members of the Holy Prophet were martyred by those Muslims who claimed companionship of the Prophet. Was that right? Hajjaj was a Muslim general and he subjected the holy mosque at Makka to brutal attack. Was that right? No sacred words can justify or sanctify a false motive.

If Pakistan was right for Muslims then I would have supported it. But I see clearly the dangers inherent in the demand. I do not expect people to follow me, but it is not possible for me to go against the call of my conscience. People generally submit either to coercion or to the lessons of their experience. Muslims will not hear anything against Pakistan unless they experience it. Today they can call white black, but they will not give up Pakistan. The only way it can be stopped now is either for the government not to concede it or for Mr Jinnah himself  if he agrees to some new proposal.

Now as I gather from the attitude of my own colleagues in the working committee, the division of India appears to be certain. But I must warn that the evil consequences of partition will not affect India alone, Pakistan will be equally haunted by them. The partition will be based on the religion of the population and not based on any natural barrier like mountain, desert or river. A line will be drawn; it is difficult to say how durable it would be.

We must remember that an entity conceived in hatred will last only as long as that hatred lasts. This hatred will overwhelm the relations between India and Pakistan. In this situation it will not be possible for India and Pakistan to become friends and live amicably unless some catastrophic event takes place. The politics of partition itself will act as a barrier between the two countries. It will not be possible for Pakistan to accommodate all the Muslims of India, a task beyond her territorial capability. On the other hand, it will not be possible for the Hindus to stay especially in West Pakistan. They will be thrown out or leave on their own. This will have its repercussions in India and the Indian Muslims will have three options before them:

1. They become victims of loot and brutalities and migrate to Pakistan; but how many Muslims can find shelter there?

2. They become subject to murder and other excesses. A substantial number of Muslims will pass through this ordeal until the bitter memories of partition are forgotten and the generation that had lived through it completes its natural term.

3. A good number of Muslims, haunted by poverty, political wilderness and regional depredation decide to renounce Islam.

The prominent Muslims who are supporters of Muslim League will leave for Pakistan. The wealthy Muslims will take over the industry and business and monopolise the economy of Pakistan. But more than 30 million Muslims will be left behind in India. What promise Pakistan holds for them? The situation that will arise after the expulsion of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan will be still more dangerous for them. Pakistan itself will be afflicted by many serious problems. The greatest danger will come from international powers who will seek to control the new country, and with the passage of time this control will become tight. India will have no problem with this outside interference as it will sense danger and hostility from Pakistan.

The other important point that has escaped Mr Jinnahs attention is Bengal. He does not know that Bengal disdains outside leadership and rejects it sooner or later. During World War II, Mr Fazlul Haq revolted against Jinnah and was thrown out of the Muslim League. Mr H.S. Suhrawardy does not hold Jinnah in high esteem. Why only Muslim League, look at the history of Congress. The revolt of Subhas Chandra Bose is known to all. Gandhiji was not happy with the presidentship of Bose and turned the tide against him by going on a fast unto death at Rajkot. Subhas Bose rose against Gandhiji and disassociated himself from the Congress. The environment of Bengal is such that it disfavours leadership from outside and rises in revolt when it senses danger to its rights and interests.

The confidence of East Pakistan will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaquat Ali are alive. But after them any small incident will create resentment and disaffection. I feel that it will not be possible for East Pakistan to stay with West Pakistan for any considerable period of time. There is nothing common between the two regions except that they call themselves Muslims. But the fact of being Muslim has never created durable political unity anywhere in the world. The Arab world is before us; they subscribe to a common religion, a common civilisation and culture and speak a common language. In fact they acknowledge even territorial unity. But there is no political unity among them. Their systems of government are different and they are often engaged in mutual recrimination and hostility. On the other hand, the language, customs and way of life of East Pakistan are totally different from West Pakistan. The moment the creative warmth of Pakistan cools down, the contradictions will emerge and will acquire assertive overtones. These will be fuelled by the clash of interests of international powers and consequently both wings will separate. After the separation of East Pakistan, whenever it happens, West Pakistan will become the battleground of regional contradictions and disputes. The assertion of sub-national identities of Punjab, Sind, Frontier and Balochistan will open the doors for outside interference. It will not be long before the international powers use the diverse elements of Pakistani political leadership to break the country on the lines of Balkan and Arab states. Maybe at that stage we will ask ourselves, what have we gained and what have we lost.

The real issue is economic development and progress, it certainly is not religion. Muslim business leaders have doubts about their own ability and competitive spirit. They are so used to official patronage and favours that they fear new freedom and liberty. They advocate the two-nation theory to conceal their fears and want to have a Muslim state where they have the monopoly to control the economy without any competition from competent rivals. It will be interesting to watch how long they can keep this deception alive.

I feel that right from its inception, Pakistan will face some very serious problems:

1. The incompetent political leadership will pave the way for military dictatorship as it has happened in many Muslim countries.

2. The heavy burden of foreign debt.

3. Absence of friendly relationship with neighbours and the possibility of armed conflict.

4. Internal unrest and regional conflicts.

5. The loot of national wealth by the neo-rich and industrialists of Pakistan.

6. The apprehension of class war as a result of exploitation by the neo-rich.

7. The dissatisfaction and alienation of the youth from religion and the collapse of the theory of Pakistan.

8. The conspiracies of the international powers to control Pakistan.

In this situation, the stability of Pakistan will be under strain and the Muslim countries will be in no position to provide any worthwhile help. The assistance from other sources will not come without strings and it will force both ideological and territorial compromises.

Q: But the question is how Muslims can keep their community identity intact and how they can inculcate the attributes of the citizens of a Muslim state.

A: Hollow words cannot falsify the basic realities nor slanted questions can make the answers deficient. It amounts to distortion of the discourse. What is meant by community identity? If this community identity has remained intact during the British slavery, how will it come under threat in a free India in whose affairs Muslims will be equal participants? What attributes of the Muslim state you wish to cultivate? The real issue is the freedom of faith and worship and who can put a cap on that freedom. Will independence reduce the 90 million Muslims into such a helpless state that they will feel constrained in enjoying their religious freedom? If the British, who as a world power could not snatch this liberty, what magic or power do the Hindus have to deny this freedom of religion? These questions have been raised by those, who, under the influence of western culture, have renounced their own heritage and are now raising dust through political gimmickry.

Muslim history is an important part of Indian history. Do you think the Muslim kings were serving the cause of Islam? They had a nominal relationship with Islam; they were not Islamic preachers. Muslims of India owe their gratitude to Sufis, and many of these divines were treated by the kings very cruelly. Most of the kings created a large band of Ulema who were an obstacle in the path of the propagation of Islamic ethos and values. Islam, in its pristine form, had a tremendous appeal and in the first century won the hearts and minds of a large number of people living in and around Hejaz. But the Islam that came to India was different, the carriers were non-Arabs and the real spirit was missing. Still, the imprint of the Muslim period is writ large on the culture, music, art, architecture and languages of India. What do the cultural centres of India, like Delhi and Lucknow, represent? The underlying Muslim spirit is all too obvious.

If the Muslims still feel under threat and believe that they will be reduced to slavery in free India then I can only pray for their faith and hearts. If a man becomes disenchanted with life he can be helped to revival, but if someone is timid and lacks courage, then it is not possible to help him become brave and gutsy. The Muslims as a community have become cowards. They have no fear of God, instead they fear men. This explains why they are so obsessed with threats to their existence  a figment of their imagination.

After British takeover, the government committed all possible excesses against the Muslims. But Muslims did not cease to exist. On the contrary, they registered a growth that was more than average. The Muslim cultural ethos and values have their own charm. Then India has large Muslim neighbours on three sides. Why on earth the majority in this country will be interested to wipe out the Muslims? How will it promote their self interests? Is it so easy to finish 90 million people? In fact, Muslim culture has such attraction that I shall not be surprised if it comes to have the largest following in free India.

The world needs both, a durable peace and a philosophy of life. If the Hindus can run after Marx and undertake scholarly studies of the philosophy and wisdom of the West, they do not disdain Islam and will be happy to benefit from its principles. In fact they are more familiar with Islam and acknowledge that Islam does not mean parochialism of a hereditary community or a despotic system of governance. Islam is a universal call to establish peace on the basis of human equality. They know that Islam is the proclamation of a Messenger who calls to the worship of God and not his own worship. Islam means freedom from all social and economic discriminations and reorganisation of society on three basic principles of God-consciousness, righteous action and knowledge. In fact, it is we Muslims and our extremist behaviour that has created an aversion among non-Muslims for Islam. If we had not allowed our selfish ambitions to soil the purity of Islam then many seekers of truth would have found comfort in the bosom of Islam. Pakistan has nothing to do with Islam; it is a political demand that is projected by Muslim League as the national goal of Indian Muslims. I feel it is not the solution to the problems Muslims are facing. In fact it is bound to create more problems.

The Holy Prophet has said, God has made the whole earth a mosque for me. Now do not ask me to support the idea of the partition of a mosque. If the nine-crore Muslims were thinly scattered all over India, and demand was made to reorganise the states in a manner to ensure their majority in one or two regions, that was understandable. Again such a demand would not have been right from an Islamic viewpoint, but justifiable on administrative grounds. But the situation, as it exists, is drastically different. All the border states of India have Muslim majorities sharing borders with Muslim countries. Tell me, who can eliminate these populations? By demanding Pakistan we are turning our eyes away from the history of the last 1,000 years and, if I may use the League terminology, throwing more than 30 million Muslims into the lap of Hindu Raj. The Hindu Muslim problem that has created political tension between Congress and League will become a source of dispute between the two states and with the aid of international powers this may erupt into full scale war anytime in future.

The question is often raised that if the idea of Pakistan is so fraught with dangers for the Muslims, why is it being opposed by the Hindus? I feel that the opposition to the demand is coming from two quarters. One is represented by those who genuinely feel concerned about imperial machinations and strongly believe that a free, united India will be in a better position to defend itself. On the other hand, there is a section who opposes Pakistan with the motive to provoke Muslims to become more determined in their demand and thus get rid of them. Muslims have every right to demand constitutional safeguards, but partition of India cannot promote their interests. The demand is the politically incorrect solution of a communal problem.

In future India will be faced with class problems, not communal disputes; the conflict will be between capital and labour. The communist and socialist movements are growing and it is not possible to ignore them. These movements will increasingly fight for the protection of the interest of the underclass. The Muslim capitalists and the feudal classes are apprehensive of this impending threat. Now they have given this whole issue a communal colour and have turned the economic issue into a religious dispute. But Muslims alone are not responsible for it. This strategy was first adopted by the British government and then endorsed by the political minds of Aligarh. Later, Hindu short-sightedness made matters worse and now freedom has become contingent on the partition of India.

Jinnah himself was an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. In one Congress session Sarojini Naidu had commended him with this title. He was a disciple of Dadabhai Naoroji. He had refused to join the 1906 deputation of Muslims that initiated communal politics in India. In 1919 he stood firmly as a nationalist and opposed Muslim demands before the Joint Select Committee. On 3 October 1925, in a letter to the Times of India he rubbished the suggestion that Congress is a Hindu outfit. In the All Parties Conferences of 1925 and 1928, he strongly favoured a joint electorate. While speaking at the National Assembly in 1925, he said, I am a nationalist first and a nationalist last and exhorted his colleagues, be they Hindus or Muslims, not to raise communal issues in the House and help make the Assembly a national institution in the truest sense of the term.

In 1928, Jinnah supported the Congress call to boycott Simon Commission. Till 1937, he did not favour the demand to partition India. In his message to various student bodies he stressed the need to work for Hindu Muslim unity. But he felt aggrieved when the Congress formed governments in seven states and ignored the Muslim League. In 1940 he decided to pursue the partition demand to check Muslim political decline. In short, the demand for Pakistan is his response to his own political experiences. Mr Jinnah has every right to his opinion about me, but I have no doubts about his intelligence. As a politician he has worked overtime to fortify Muslim communalism and the demand for Pakistan. Now it has become a matter of prestige for him and he will not give it up at any cost.

Q: It is clear that Muslims are not going to turn away from their demand for Pakistan. Why have they become so impervious to all reason and logic of arguments?

A: It is difficult, rather impossible, to fight against the misplaced enthusiasm of a mob, but to suppress ones conscience is worse than death. Today the Muslims are not walking, they are flowing. The problem is that Muslims have not learnt to walk steady; they either run or flow with the tide. When a group of people lose confidence and self-respect, they are surrounded by imaginary doubts and dangers and fail to make a distinction between the right and the wrong. The true meaning of life is realised not through numerical strength but through firm faith and righteous action. British politics has sown many seeds of fear and distrust in the mental field of Muslims. Now they are in a frightful state, bemoaning the departure of the British and demanding partition before the foreign masters leave. Do they believe that partition will avert all the dangers to their lives and bodies? If these dangers are real then they will still haunt their borders and any armed conflict will result in much greater loss of lives and possessions.

Q: But Hindus and Muslims are two different nations with different and disparate inclinations. How can the unity between the two be achieved?

A: This is an obsolete debate. I have seen the correspondence between Allama Iqbal and Maulana Husain Ahmad Madni on the subject. In the Quran the term qaum has been used not only for the community of believers but has also been used for distinct human groupings generally. What do we wish to achieve by raising this debate about the etymological scope of terms like millat [community], qaum [nation] and ummat [group]? In religious terms India is home to many people  the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs etc. The differences between Hindu religion and Islam are vast in scope. But these differences cannot be allowed to become an obstacle in the path of India gaining her freedom nor do the two distinct and different systems of faith negate the idea of unity of India. The issue is of our national independence and how we can secure it. Freedom is a blessing and is the right of every human being. It cannot be divided on the basis of religion.

Muslims must realise that they are bearers of a universal message. They are not a racial or regional grouping in whose territory others cannot enter. Strictly speaking, Muslims in India are not one community; they are divided among many well-entrenched sects. You can unite them by arousing their anti-Hindu sentiment but you cannot unite them in the name of Islam. To them Islam means undiluted loyalty to their own sect. Apart from Wahabi, Sunni and Shia there are innumerable groups who owe allegiance to different saints and divines. Small issues like raising hands during the prayer and saying Amen loudly have created disputes that defy solution. The Ulema have used the instrument of takfeer [fatwas declaring someone as infidel] liberally. Earlier, they used to take Islam to the disbelievers; now they take away Islam from the believers. Islamic history is full of instances of how good and pious Muslims were branded kafirs. Prophets alone had the capability to cope with these mindboggling situations. Even they had to pass through times of afflictions and trials. The fact is that when reason and intelligence are abandoned and attitudes become fossilised then the job of the reformer becomes very difficult.

But today the situation is worse than ever. Muslims have become firm in their communalism; they prefer politics to religion and follow their worldly ambitions as commands of religion. History bears testimony to the fact that in every age we ridiculed those who pursued the good with consistency, snuffed out the brilliant examples of sacrifice and tore the flags of selfless service. Who are we, the ordinary mortals; even high ranking Prophets were not spared by these custodians of traditions and customs.

Q: You closed down your journal Al-Hilal a long time back. Was it due to your disappointment with the Muslims who were wallowing in intellectual desolation, or did you feel like proclaiming azan [call to prayer] in a barren desert?

A: I abandoned Al-Hilal not because I had lost faith in its truth. This journal created great awareness among a large section of Muslims. They renewed their faith in Islam, in human freedom and in consistent pursuit of righteous goals. In fact my own life was greatly enriched by this experience and I felt like those who had the privilege of learning under the companionship of the Messenger of God. My own voice entranced me and under its impact I burnt out like a phoenix. Al-Hilal had served its purpose and a new age was dawning. Based on my experiences, I made a reappraisal of the situation and decided to devote all my time and energy for the attainment of our national freedom. I was firm in my belief that freedom of Asia and Africa largely depends on Indias freedom and Hindu Muslim unity is key to Indias freedom. Even before the First World War, I had realised that India was destined to attain freedom, and no power on earth would be able to deny it. I was also clear in my mind about the role of Muslims. I ardently wished that Muslims would learn to walk together with their countrymen and not give an opportunity to history to say that when Indians were fighting for their independence, Muslims were looking on as spectators. Let nobody say that instead of fighting the waves they were standing on the banks and showing mirth on the drowning of boats carrying the freedom fighters 

Maulana Abul Kalam Azad: The Man Who Knew The Future Of Pakistan Before Its Creation « Koolblue's Blog
What a great man.He knew that the 2 nation theory was a recipe for disaster.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Manas

Porus said:


> Yes, you are right. They are cowards, gutless people. I have no idea who Pasmandas or Dalit actually are, but it must be correct if he says so.



You missed the point .He meant indian Muslims are largely lower caste converts who live in no stupid misnomer that they are the Mogul inheritor who ruled indiA for 1000 years and are much more Indianized .


----------



## Vinod2070

Porus said:


> It's true and most of them are proud to be Dalits.



Yes, you should be.

And not fake to have "pure genes" of invaders.


----------



## Porus

Vinod2070 said:


> Yes, you should be.
> 
> And not fake to have "pure genes" of invaders.





Manas said:


> You missed the point .He meant indian Muslims are largely lower caste converts who live in no stupid misnomer that they are the Mogul inheritor who ruled indiA for 1000 years and are much more Indianized .



I have accepted yar, why are you guys tying yourselves in knots now? They are not the descendants of those brave Mughals and Afghans who ruled your land for hundreds of years. They are a pure local breed, scum of the earth, coward. How more an Indian you can become now. lol....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## xataxsata

1. Abul Kalam Azad's ancestors were from Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

2. He and the other Muslims who don't believe in two nations theory living in much better conditions and growing with the India. 

3. While who believe in two nation theory get separated with bloody fight in 1971 and still they are fighting shia-sunni, punjabi-sindhi, baluch-pathan-punjabi etc. etc. 

4. In the end the question arise that who was right ?????????

5. Who have the last laugh??????

6. Jinnah or Abul Kalam Azad???????????????????????

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Vinod2070

genmirajborgza786 said:


> look you re a nice poster my post was directed @ *those who were taunting the muslims & projecting the "spain model"*
> 
> @ topic both Maulana Kalam & M.A Jinnah along with mahatma Gandhi were great leaders & deserves our utmost respect things went wrong after the rejection of the cabinet mission plan by Nehru


 
If you are talking of me, I don't care for anyone's religion.

But if following a different religion leads to treason, I have only contempt for it.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Vinod2070 said:


> If you are talking of me, I don't care for anyone's religion.
> 
> But if following a different religion leads to treason, I have only contempt for it.



vinod look bro all said & done
but there was no treason here as i said it was the rejection of the cabinet mission plan after which all hell broke loosed i mean Nehru knew it very well that by rejecting the cabinet mission plan he will be pushing the muslim league to the wall & its following consequences therefore it was nehrus treachery which was responsible for the events

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

KS said:


> Do you realize while criticizing Azad for being a showman you are actually asking for the same "showman"ship from India by asking us what names we have kept for our weapons ?
> 
> And I'm damn sure if we had indeed kept some Islamic names then that would have been dismissed as "showmanship". Either way you people will say the same.
> 
> We dont indulge in gimmicks like Pakistan by naming our weapons after looters/invaders who did nothing but pillage our territory...Abdali, Babur, AL khalid..seriously ? Babur in his babur nama gloats how he made a mountain of skulls from the pashtuns (in present day Afg-Pak) he killed on his way to India..should we also indulge in the same act ?
> 
> What is wrong in Muslims themselves identifying with the pre-Islamic past ? Did you people suddenly jump into this land with the arrival of MBQ.. Do you even understand that some are nothing but the Sanskrit names of the elements of nature ? This is why I respect the Iranians amongst all the Muslims...they dont strive for an artificial identity and their primary identity is Persian/Iranian...next comes muslim or whatever...Ask a Iranian Muslim who he respects more - Nader Shah (a Muslim) or Cyrus (a kuffar)....unanimously they will answer Cyrus and the Iranians still curse the Arabs for destroying their beautiful culture and religion..
> 
> p.s.: Anyway for your info the Mi-35 Hind is named Akbar in the IAF, if it soothes anything for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly,there is no need to convince you of anything. That 50% of the Muslims rejected the "vision" of Jinnah is proof alone of its shallowness.
> 
> p.s: Personally I am a supporter of Jinnah's policies and I thank god he won against Congress.
> 
> 
> 
> UP politics is one of the MOST pro-Muslim in India and if he thinks he is sidetracked then his political acumen sucks and he should consider retiring giving ground for more capable players...No offence..
> 
> 
> p.s.: Regarding Kerala..they are not majority there..they make up of 22% of the population...not much difference from the 19% in UP.
> 
> 
> 
> That is BS and I am tired of exposing it.
> 
> Go read yourself about the 1000 years buffalo manure yourself..
> 
> Hint : the Delhi sultanates started in 1206 and the Mughals breathed their last in 1756 or 1757.
> 
> And even in between they maintained their rule over North and Central India only by alliance with a the Hindu kingdoms like Rajputs and not by crushing anyone...they tried crushing the Marathas and were shown their true place.



Its not about names.. its about ownership.. representation. 
Singular show boys do nothing.. Naming the mi-35 akbar does show some ownership of that part of history.
a 1000 years or not.. its there... 
Those people whom you call looters and plunders(which all invaders are FYI..ranjit singh left little stones unturned in his invasion of the northwest)..are still a part of the Muslim section of Indian history. Specifically targeting only Muslims as looters and plunderers among all those that came into India.. interesting.
So in other words.. even though the Aryan religion and Hinduism itself was an invasion on this land.. only Islam qualifies as alien to it and therefore liable for ejection.. I see where this links up perfectly to the whole mess in the first place.

50% of Muslims did what? rejected what? lets see.. Two large independent Muslim majorities in Pakistan and Bangladesh... did they reject the idea that Muslims and Hindu's cannot exist as politically significant powers?..I think not. Bangladesh is one example of where Muslims are tolerant and able to integrate with a significant Hindu population.. 
So apparently only the opposite is not possible.. that Political Hinduism is intolerant of another major Politically active religion?

UP politics are pro-Muslim.... but as I mentioned before.. pro-anything but actual bargaining power.
The "cant own property but are welcome on rent" doctrine.
Where does that pro-Muslim political force translate into actual ownership of Islam as part of the state's culture?



Bang Galore said:


> Man, you got your wish; your own country! Good luck & from the tenor of your posts, good riddance! Now kindly s*top pissing on the graves of our heroes*. Move on...we get it... you don't believe in all the "hindu-muslim unity" stuff. Fine ! Make your country whatever you want, leave us to our & Azad's "delusions". I'm glad your leaders were great otherwise we would still be having this cancerous growth within us. I have no illusions of an united India that could have survived. While we may not accept the concept of the 2NT, we realise that we could have the India we wanted only & only when you chaps separated. So, it worked out best for all of us -for the ones who believed in Azad & the ones who believed in Jinnah. Whatever connections existed in the past, they don't anymore, some 65 years after the separation. We like our constitution & the nature of our state however flawed & untenable you think it is. Azad is our hero, we could not care less what you chaps thought of him .



Hey you came here.. registered here with us.
We tolerate all your BS on our country.. so suck it up and tolerate this.



Vinod2070 said:


> Like you have done in Pakistan? By totally suppressing the Hindus?
> 
> And now you are forced to assume that the other side has to have the same low standards and the same sense of morality (or lack thereof).



They are suppressed.. but then their numbers dont count.. and we are already listed as an Islamic country while you guys wave the banner of secularism like you invented it. 
We admit we are bigoted.. but your hiding your double standards on the guise of "show boats" has to be pointed out.
Wasnt there the issue of Low Muslim representation in the Military.. 
So if Muslims were really cared for.. Id suppose the political setup would work to bring their standards up.
An Azim Premji or A.R Rehman does not effect the ones having to wash clothes in slums.
There are showboats here.. why hide yours under the guise of "its really all ok here".

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bang Galore

Oscar said:


> Its not about names.. its about ownership.. representation.
> Singular show boys do nothing.. Naming the mi-35 akbar does show some ownership of that part of history.
> a 1000 years or not.. its there...



There are only two kings in the entire history of India whose names are appended with the phrase "the Great". They are Asoka from the 3rd century BCE & Akbar from the 16th century. The former was Buddhist & the latter Muslim. Every school child learns about these two. Proof that India has not only a single dimension cultural view, is it not?

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## lem34

The question I think we should ask is would Mr Azad and Mr Jinnah come to their respective conclusions that they did pre partition with the benefit of hind site in 2012.

In doing so we need not just to look at Pakistan successes and failures but at India's as well. 

It simply is not good enough to look at the strife in Pakistan it's problems and say the Quaid was wrong and that we would have been better off with India. 

In this regard we need to look at India and its issues and problems.

I have posted indicators and statistics from Indian and UN agencies about India and can do so again if necessary which show that India is not secular and that minorities are severely prejudiced. Notwithstanding the constitution and the laws of India which in my opinion are not being enforced I believe that had Mr Azad had access to this data he would have come to the same conclusions the Quaid came to at pre partition and the Quaid's position would be vindicated.

The reason that I do not put those figures here is that Indian forum members get so upset and take it as a personal attack on them and India because it shows India in such a bad light and start trolling and the thread gets closed two or three pages later.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Bang Galore

Oscar said:


> Hey you came here.. registered here with us.We tolerate all your BS on our country.. *so suck it up and tolerate this.*



Oh but we do. Any neutral person would have pointed out the absurdity in Mr.Jinnah's apparently over the top response. Only in Pakistani eyes would such a absurd response to a civil letter be held up as mark of the man's greatness. Mr. Jinnah was arguably a great man, not however so much on the basis of the purported letter. That could probably be held up as a lesson in how not to reply.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Vinod2070

genmirajborgza786 said:


> vinod look bro all said & done
> but there was no treason here as i said it was the rejection of the cabinet mission plan after which all hell broke loosed i mean Nehru knew it very well that by rejecting the carbonate mission plan he will be pushing the muslim league to the wall & its following consequences therefore it was nehrus treachery which was responsible for the events



It is fine.

We have our own interpretations and I am glad partition happened.

I wish we all live happily even if separate.

Let's not denigrate each others and everything is fine. Someone abuses his ancestors as "pagans" and he invites ridicule on his current religion and its holy figures.

Live and let live.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## third eye

Aeronaut said:


> Jinnah was enlightened - Azad was under a delusion - Jinnah is hero & *azad was a perverted man who believed in the idea of Hindu Muslim Unity.*
> 
> Im sure gentleman's soul would be repenting on his miscalculations -- after Babri Mosque - Gujrat massacres - Kashmiri mass graves. I am sure if he was alive today he would have no shame in saying that in the battle of Two Nation Theory VS Hindu Muslim Unity theory -- later is totally failed - it was bound to.



Unity among two religious groups can hardly be termed perversion !!

@ the title of this thread..

Sigh !! Why must everything be this Vs that !!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## hotaki

Pakistanisage said:


> To compare the merchant muslims of Bosnia to Indian Muslims is an insult to Indian Muslims my friend.
> 
> Muslims in undivided India were Martial people who ruled India for over 1000 years. Why did we become so scared of being a huge 40% minority.
> 
> I can assure you 40% Muslims would not have faced any discrimination. Forty Percent of Population can bring the govt wheels to a screeching halt.
> 
> And that is all Maulana Azad was trying to point out.


 

Correction my friend Indian Muslims never ruled India, and never was there a united India.

Stop trying to distort facts turco afghans muslims ruled India and never the native Muslim, for he was glad to be liberated.

Mr Azad was a Hindu puppet and lacked any ambition and never had any plan or purpose other then the Hindu agenda.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Nitin Goyal said:


> pakistan is a perhaps a unique case where minorities population is not increasing in spite of having sex !! from 15 % to 3 %.
> 
> Hindu chief ministers vs Presidents  comical....ahhh I forgot that you can't have hindu president or PM.
> 
> the thing about 1971 was it was racial cleansing along with minority cleansing, didn't your PA kill HIndus of Bangladesh ??
> 
> How about it ???
> 
> Pakistan has institutionalized discrimination against minority (blasphemy laws etc..) we provide them equal opportunity.
> 
> Did your uncle tell u that he wants to come in Pakistan ? I know for sure that hundreds of hindus migrate to India from pakistan every month. What does that prove ?? Love to hear from you .....
> 
> Pakistanis should be last people who should mince a word regarding minorities.
> 
> You didn't prove that he was a show man...as u blamed him..onus is on you to prove it.



The minorities are increasing because the majority has increased exponentially at the same time.
They simply had more kids.. quite simple to guess... the same is why Muslims in India grew.. they just made more kids.

Not sure how that is relavent..
FYI ..Islamic republic vs Secular republic.

in 71 Bangladeshis were killed.. simple as that. Muslims and Hindus.. off course your country used the Hindu card to create more Hindu militants.. so basically India made sure more Hindus were killed.. 

Yes Pakistan has.. its an Islamic republic under Mullah's.. not Jinnah's vision anyway.

No.. He was too busy trying to croon the Vande Mataram more than his neighbors.. while the other party members stick to their normal expression of party language and banners.. his must include an Indian flag to prove loyalty... as do all other Muslim candidates.. Kind of funny as to how he has to be more Indian than the average Indian.. most of his cousins are living in much larger properties.. enjoying the good life...who.. did not actually migrate in 47..
they came in around the 50's and 60's.. after they saw that India wasnt delivering on its promises. 
Perhaps this family is only anomaly .. while other Muslims have prospered? 
But apart fromt the fact that Lucknow is a really shitty place.. I found very little prosperity in that Muslim majority.
And here is the even weirder stuff.. this family.. this household.. were extreme supporters of congress and Nehru.
My great grandfather was a close friend of Mr Nehru.. those who could walk into the PM's office. 
Ran a daily urdu back then.. which eventually closed down... 
Now if these people.. who were part of those that rooted for India... end up like this..
Something is going wrong then.. 

Your(and apparently others) whole tirade is on why I as a Pakistan am not qualified to speak..rather than actually giving me say a link to reports of Muslims Financial status on average.. representaion.. etc.

"you cant talk about us since you are in the shitter too"
And thats it.. that's all you got?


----------



## Jade

Bang Galore said:


> Oh but we do. Any neutral person would have pointed out the absurdity in Mr.Jinnah's apparently over the top response. Only in Pakistani eyes would such a absurd response to a civil letter be held up as mark of the man's greatness. Mr. Jinnah was arguably a great man, not however so much on the basis of the purported letter. That could probably be held up as a lesson in how not to reply.



On the first instance, I could not believe the reply was from Jinnah; moreover, the reply was almost a year late


----------



## SQ8

Bang Galore said:


> There are only two kings in the entire history of India whose names are appended with the phrase "the Great". They are Asoka from the 3rd century BCE & Akbar from the 16th century. The former was Buddhist & the latter Muslim. Every school child learns about these two. Proof that India has not only a single dimension cultural view, is it not?



We learn the same.. our history books(not those with Ayub Khan's taint on them) talk about all these empires and Ashoka's significance.. then the Mughal rule. What about the rest?


----------



## newdelhinsa

Bang Galore said:


> Oh but we do. Any neutral person would have pointed out the absurdity in Mr.Jinnah's apparently over the top response. Only in Pakistani eyes would such a absurd response to a civil letter be held up as mark of the man's greatness. Mr. Jinnah was arguably a great man, not however so much on the basis of the purported letter. That could probably be held up as a lesson in how not to reply.



I can now assume how difficult it might have become for the likes of Gandhi, Nehru and Azad to deal with him given his open stances against one religion.


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> In this regard we need to look at India and its issues and problems.
> 
> I have posted indicators and statistics from Indian and UN agencies about India and can do so again if necessary which show that *India is not secular* and that minorities are severely prejudiced. Notwithstanding the constitution and the laws of India which in my opinion are not being enforced I believe that had Mr Azad had access to this data he would have come to the same conclusions the Quaid came to at pre partition and the Quaid's position would be vindicated.



Firstly, define "secular". That's an attribute of the state & not of individuals. Individual failures cannot be necessarily held up as the failure of the basic model. There is nothing in the Indian constitution which inherently discriminates against minorities of any type.

Funny, how you argue that the present condition of Indian muslims would be a basis of argument for support of the 2NT. The data will always be skewed(if not adjusted to a socio-economic base) because of a large migration of the middle class Muslims to Pakistan. Had that not happened, it is quite conceivable that the data would reflect a more uniform pattern. Even with that data, I believe Maulana Azad would be happy in the direction that India is going towards as opposed the one Pakistan has set its course to.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## hotaki

Vinod2070 said:


> Abdali was a bandit. He didn't change anything.



He taught you a lesson like his predecessors that you guys are just all talk, stopped you in your tracks and gave you a reality check, he was no bandit anyone that beats you guys is a barbarian or a bandit.


----------



## Bang Galore

Oscar said:


> We learn the same.. our history books(not those with Ayub Khan's taint on them) talk about all these empires and Ashoka's significance.. then the Mughal rule.* What about the rest?*



What about the rest? Pick one where you believe that injustice was done to a Muslim ruler merely because of his religion & not for his acts? Would be glad to debate that with you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 53fd

One must remember that 64 years since Pakistan & India's independence, Pakistan has been doing better than India in 45+ years in all socioeconomic, development indicators. Even today, despite being in the forefront on the WOT, Pakistan is doing better than India in many socioeconomic indicators. Where Pakistan is today is not because of what Jinnah envisaged for Pakistan, but because Pakistan did completely opposite of that.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Omar1984

Azad like most indian "muslims" would rather kiss the feet of hindus than side with a Muslim from their neighboring country to the North-west.

Thank you Quaid-e-Azam for Pakistan.

Pakistan Zindabad.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bang Galore

Omar1984 said:


> Azad like most indian "muslims" would rather kiss the feet of hindus than side with a Muslim from their neighboring country to the North-west.
> 
> Thank you Quaid-e-Azam for Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad.



Every time I see a post of yours, I say the same thing too.

*"Thank you Quaid-e-Azam for Pakistan."*

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Porus

hotaki said:


> He taught you a lesson like his predecessors that you guys are just all talk, stopped you in your tracks and gave you a reality check, he was no bandit anyone that beats you guys is a barbarian or a bandit.



One guy's bandit is other guy's king. This is a dog-eat-dog world, the powerful comes and takes away by force whatever he likes to have and all the weakling can do is cursing and moaning but, as soon as the weakling becomes stronger he treats others the same way and to justify his plunder, rape, torture and loot he calls it his revenge. A bitter reality.


----------



## third eye

What I read in post No 1 is simply an exchange between two matured men who had their own points of view.

With no disrespect meant I can hardly see any maturity in most of the posts thereafter.

Lastly, if Azad had his own POV I find the reply to his telegram to be a " If you are not with me, you are against me' sort of reply.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

bilalhaider said:


> One must remember that 64 years since Pakistan & India's independence, Pakistan has been doing better than India in 45+ years in all socioeconomic, development indicators. Even today, despite being in the forefront on the WOT, Pakistan is doing better than India in many socioeconomic indicators. Where Pakistan is today is not because of what Jinnah envisaged for Pakistan, but because Pakistan did completely opposite of that.



Bhai, leave us alone.

Don't compare! We are fed up. We have nothing to do with each other now.

Just move on.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Omar1984

Vinod2070 said:


> Bhai, leave us alone.
> 
> Don't compare! We are fed up. We have nothing to do with each other now.
> 
> Just move on.



Give the same advice to your fellow indians who are obsessed about Pakistan.

We Pakistanis have nothing to do with india or indians or indian "muslims"

So just move on and leave us alone.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## fd24

Vinod2070 said:


> Bhai, leave us alone.
> 
> Don't compare! We are fed up. We have nothing to do with each other now.
> 
> Just move on.



We have moved on Vinod - we are on PDF debating. The infatuation and fascination is with respect the other way round. This thread is the ultimate example of the "Indian obsession". 
Reading the posts earlier on the span of Indian logic is truly widespread - even finding it necessary to bring in 1971. 
We have certainly moved on and trust me judging be some Indian posts - its obvious the in depth obsession they have is stronger than ever with our nation.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LURKER

Oscar said:


> The minorities are increasing because the majority has increased exponentially at the same time.
> They simply had more kids.. quite simple to guess... the same is why Muslims in India grew.. they just made more kids.
> 
> Not sure how that is relavent..
> FYI ..Islamic republic vs Secular republic.
> 
> in 71 Bangladeshis were killed.. simple as that. Muslims and Hindus.. off course your country used the Hindu card to create more Hindu militants.. so basically India made sure more Hindus were killed..
> 
> Yes Pakistan has.. its an Islamic republic under Mullah's.. not Jinnah's vision anyway.
> 
> No.. He was too busy trying to croon the Vande Mataram more than his neighbors.. while the other party members stick to their normal expression of party language and banners.. his must include an Indian flag to prove loyalty... as do all other Muslim candidates.. Kind of funny as to how he has to be more Indian than the average Indian.. most of his cousins are living in much larger properties.. enjoying the good life...who.. did not actually migrate in 47..
> they came in around the 50's and 60's.. after they saw that India wasnt delivering on its promises.
> Perhaps this family is only anomaly .. while other Muslims have prospered?
> *But apart fromt the fact that Lucknow is a really shitty place.. I found very little prosperity in that Muslim majority.*
> And here is the even weirder stuff.. this family.. this household.. were extreme supporters of congress and Nehru.
> My great grandfather was a close friend of Mr Nehru.. those who could walk into the PM's office.
> Ran a daily urdu back then.. which eventually closed down...
> Now if these people.. who were part of those that rooted for India... end up like this..
> Something is going wrong then..
> 
> Your(and apparently others) whole tirade is on why I as a Pakistan am not qualified to speak..rather than actually giving me say a link to reports of Muslims Financial status on average.. representaion.. etc.
> 
> "you cant talk about us since you are in the shitter too"
> And thats it.. that's all you got?



UP as a whole is a backward state so its not just muslims who are backward. 
as for your 'lucknow is a really shityy place' have you ever been to lucknow or your uncle phoned you and told you.
I dont know what high standards pakistan has set for its cities but i find lucknow a perfectly fine Tier 2 city with decent roads,no power cuts,24 hr water supply,no slums,no sectarian violence(yes there are large no. of shias and sunnis), no bomb blasts,no gun violence etc etc. 
lucknow has a large muslim population. some of the most prominent and richest businessmen are muslims. my dad's previous boss was a muslim(GM of UP)he works in a govt dept.
visit the place some some time and see the ground reality.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notsuperstitious

No point debating this ancient stuff, Pakistan and India are different countries going to different places, thats not just a fact is also our common wish.

All I would ask mods here is to not allow insulting India's national heroes the way you would not allow insults to jinnah. Azad was our hero, he played in great part in building india's education system, he gave hope to the left behind muslims who were without leadership as most educated muslims left for pakistan (surely even the most rabid ones of you know that all Indian muslims could not have moved to pakistan, right?) .Stop abusing indian muslims too, its tough for them having to carry the baggage of partition, tough that their entire middle class, leadership left them and moved to pakistan, its noble that they live in the land of their ancestors and try to make the best they can and make their motherland proud.



superkaif said:


> We have moved on Vinod - we are on PDF debating. The infatuation and fascination is with respect the other way round. This thread is the ultimate example of the "Indian obsession".
> Reading the posts earlier on the span of Indian logic is truly widespread - even finding it necessary to bring in 1971.
> We have certainly moved on and trust me judging be some Indian posts - its obvious the in depth obsession they have is stronger than ever with our nation.



Superkaif, I came to this ''defence'' forum not out of obsession, I joined after 10 obsessed pakistan showed up in my home city, I joined to find out the other side, to understand, to exchange, to read about defence tech...

Not to listen to abuse of our national heroes, religion or our muslims just because they love their own country. Calling it obsession is plain whining and should be taken up with the forum owners. They can stop it, if it makes sense.

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## hotaki

Azad or no Azad, British took over the land that was governed by the mughals, they named it British India, they ruled it for 200 years and as they left they gave independence to Pakistan and what was to become India.

Pakistan gained its independence first and India a day later, Mr Azad and his kind chose their fate and place in history and so did jinnah.

Jinnah wasn't the only person fighting for Pakistan, great like choudry rehmat are brushed under the carpet, being with Pakistan doesn't mean being with jinnah.

My love and loyalty for Pakistan is not because of jinnah as i have my own quaid, people wanted Pakistan and jinnah succeeded if people didn't want it would never happened.

Mr azad i hope can see his people being discriminated against, their place of worships destroyed, houses burnt, men and women set on fire, labelled as dalit converts non martial race. If he saw that he would have changed his name from azad to ghulam.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Bang Galore said:


> Firstly, define "secular". That's an attribute of the state & not of individuals. Individual failures cannot be necessarily held up as the failure of the basic model. There is nothing in the Indian constitution which inherently discriminates against minorities of any type.



There is only one definition of secular. Go google it. That should give you a good idea. Do not get me wrong your Constitution and laws are of a secular nature. The issue is that they are not enforced and this is backed up by statistics and figures from Indianagencies along with UN statistics.

Let me give you an example your parliament can pass a law and say that London is an integral part of India. Thereafter you can all state that is the case but it does not make it so.

You will note I did not say Muslims I said minorities in India. These minorities combined actually are in excess of 40%. They have not been able to enforce their rights after more than 60 years after partition.

I stated that I had data from today from Indian and independent agencies which if available to Mr Azad and Mr Jinnah pre partition would vindicate Mr Jinnah and Mr Azad would have agreed with Mr Jinnah. The only reason that I do not place it here in front of you is because in the past when I have done so some of your brethren on this site would be so upset at the negative aspect that they would take it personally and or against India because it shows India in such a bad light.

In any event you have not argued that the data does not exist but that it will be skewed.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## third eye

hotaki said:


> Azad or no Azad, British took over the land that was governed by the mughals, they named it British India, they ruled it for 200 years and as they left they gave independence to Pakistan and what was to become India.
> 
> Pakistan gained its independence first and India a day later, Mr Azad and his kind chose their fate and place in history and so did jinnah.
> 
> Jinnah wasn't the only person fighting for Pakistan, great like choudry rehmat are brushed under the carpet, being with Pakistan doesn't mean being with jinnah.
> 
> My love and loyalty for Pakistan is not because of jinnah as i have my own quaid, people wanted Pakistan and jinnah succeeded if people didn't want it would never happened.
> 
> Mr azad i hope can see his people being discriminated against, their *place of worships destroyed, hoses burnt, men and women set on fire,* labelled as dalit converts non martial race. If we saw that he would have changed his name from azad to ghulam.



The part in bold above applies in complete measure to Muslims in Pakistan as well.

Mosques are bombed, houses destroyed, men,women & children killed.. by Muslims themselves !

So, where is the difference ? The larger point is that stupidity of some should not be taken as applicable to all.

The subject @ hand is ' Vs ' situation created by scanning a page from a book showing an exchange among two gents who had their own POV & stood by it.

I feel it should end there.


----------



## jahangeer yousaf

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !



Although there is non like Quaid which Pakistan got as a leader but still Quaid earned a lot more respect which i used to give him and A.K Azad earned even more hatred .............
and of course i am one of those who believe in Ghazva-i-Hind...otherwise it was impossible for muslims to gain independence and separate country for themselves and Quaid did it single handedly


----------



## Porus

Vinod2070 said:


> Bhai, leave us alone.
> 
> Don't compare! We are fed up. We have nothing to do with each other now.
> 
> Just move on.



A very good reply, this is what I expect from you guys. Now do what you are preaching, leave this Pakistani discussion board forever and never come back.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## notsuperstitious

> You represent nether Hindus or Muslims



And yet most the pakistani posters here pretend to represent pakistan, not hindu or muslims or christians or ahmedis or buddhists or parsees of pakistan, but the entire pakistan...

As they should, but not Azad - he could not have represented his nation, he had to represent either hindus or muslims... what kind of intolerant BS is this?

WHY???

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Porus

hotaki said:


> Azad or no Azad, British took over the land that was governed by the mughals, they named it British India, they ruled it for 200 years and as they left they gave independence to Pakistan and what was to become India.
> 
> Pakistan gained its independence first and India a day later, Mr Azad and his kind chose their fate and place in history and so did jinnah.
> 
> Jinnah wasn't the only person fighting for Pakistan, great like choudry rehmat are brushed under the carpet, being with Pakistan doesn't mean being with jinnah.
> 
> My love and loyalty for Pakistan is not because of jinnah as i have my own quaid, people wanted Pakistan and jinnah succeeded if people didn't want it would never happened.
> 
> Mr azad i hope can see his people being discriminated against, their place of worships destroyed, houses burnt, men and women set on fire, labelled as dalit converts non martial race. If he saw that he would have changed his name from azad to ghulam.



A minor correction, the British rule over the area what is not Pakistan was no longer than hundred years. How long did they rule over the rest of South Asia is unconcerned to me.


----------



## Vinod2070

Porus said:


> A very good reply, this is what I expect from you guys. Now do what you are preaching, leave this Pakistani discussion board forever and never come back.


 
Great. Just don't bring India into your discussions.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shardul.....the lion

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> *The Man who knew the Future of Pakistan.
> *​by Shorish Kashmiri, Matbooat Chattan, Lahore
> 
> *Congress president Maulana Abul Kalam Azad gave the following interview to journalist Shorish Kashmiri for a Lahore based Urdu magazine, Chattan, in April 1946.*
> 
> The confidence of East Pakistan will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaquat Ali are alive. But after them any small incident will create resentment and disaffection. I feel that it will not be possible for East Pakistan to stay with West Pakistan for any considerable period of time. There is nothing common between the two regions except that they call themselves Muslims. But the fact of being Muslim has never created durable political unity anywhere in the world. The Arab world is before us; they subscribe to a common religion, a common civilisation and culture and speak a common language. In fact they acknowledge even territorial unity. But there is no political unity among them. Their systems of government are different and they are often engaged in mutual recrimination and hostility. On the other hand, *the language, customs and way of life of East Pakistan are totally different from West Pakistan. The moment the creative warmth of Pakistan cools down, the contradictions will emerge and will acquire assertive overtones. These will be fuelled by the clash of interests of international powers and consequently both wings will separate. After the separation of East Pakistan, whenever it happens, West Pakistan will become the battleground of regional contradictions and disputes. The assertion of sub-national identities of Punjab, Sind, Frontier and Balochistan will open the doors for outside interference. It will not be long before the international powers use the diverse elements of Pakistani political leadership to break the country on the lines of Balkan and Arab states. *Maybe at that stage we will ask ourselves, what have we gained and what have we lost.
> Maulana Abul Kalam Azad: The Man Who Knew The Future Of Pakistan Before Its Creation « Koolblue's Blog



Between Jinnah and Azad,
Atleast by reading Azad's comment, I can say Azad was more visionary, He was right about both India and Pakistan nations.

He predicted the things of seperation of bangladesh and rise of subnationalism in Baloch, Sindh and frontier, way back in 1946.
Man gaye Azad sahab apko.

He was also right about Hindu Muslim living and prospering together, as in India and several other countries in world, where Countries like China are prospering without giving religion any importance at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

hotaki said:


> Azad or no Azad, British took over the land that was governed by the mughals, they named it British India, they ruled it for 200 years and as they left they gave independence to Pakistan and what was to become India.


 
Mughal arse had been kicked and they were confined to just Delhi (at the mercy of Jats and Marathas) since 1700s.

Saltanat-e-Shah Alam
Az Dilli ta Palam

i.e. the Empire of Shah Alam extends from Delhi to Palam.

And this guy was the grandfather of Bahadur Shah Jaffar.

But real history was never taught to you or never managed to penetrate!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## fd24

fateh71

You sir are being selective. You are fully aware who my post was intended towards and it certainly wasnt you. Go back a few pages and it doesnt require a genius to work out who i was pointing the finger at.
Then when Vinod bhai comes on and says "Bhai leave us alone" - i scratch my head thinking we are on PDF and having a debate or discussion where he is insinuating we have an obsessive nature? It doesn't make sense. If i felt "people weren't respecting me or my nation" then i would resign from the forum.
fateh after a recent visit on one auspicious forum of your nation where the mods couldn't contain their glee and happiness at the loss of our soldiers on the glacier - i thanked the lord that i wasn't associated with 186 members that had such mentality. 
I thank Jinnah for the creation of Pakistan. I thank the mods for donating their time in making this the best defense forum in the world.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## hotaki

jahangeer yousaf said:


> Although there is non like Quaid which Pakistan got as a leader but still Quaid earned a lot more respect which i used to give him and A.K Azad earned even more hatred .............
> and of course i am one of those who believe in Ghazva-i-Hind...otherwise it was impossible for muslims to gain independence and separate country for themselves and Quaid did it single handedly


 
Quaid never did it single handedly now that's just distorting history and facts, Pakistani are all but a native Pakistani is someone whose ancestral lands makeup Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## third eye

Porus said:


> A minor correction, the *British rule over the area what is not Pakistan was no longer than hundred years.* How long did they rule over the rest of South Asia is unconcerned to me.



Please correct this to read " what is now Pakistan'. 

The area Pakistan started with included areas where Brit rule began from - Bengal.


----------



## Porus

Vinod2070 said:


> Great. Just don't bring India into your discussions.



A very lame excuse indeed. It means you will keep trolling here. There are many purely Pakistan related threads on this website where India is not mentioned once or brought into discussion, but even those threads are infested with the trolls form India. We know the obsession you guys have with Pakistan.



third eye said:


> Please correct this to read " what is now Pakistan'.
> 
> The area Pakistan started with included areas where Brit rule began from - Bengal.
> 
> 
> 
> Please correct this to read " what is now Pakistan'.
> 
> The area Pakistan started with included areas where Brit rule began from - E Bengal.
> 
> That it was squandered due to poor governance is another matter.



Bengal was not meant to be a part of Pakistan, therefore, there is no letter that represents Bengal in the acronym Pakistan. It should not have been a part of Pakistan right from the beginning.


----------



## lem34

Guys its simple Both Mr Azad and Mr Jinnah did not have the benefit of hind site. I note my earlier posts which I have stated that indicators and statistics from India UN and other agencies show that Mr Jinnah's position is vindicated. 

No one has questioned that this data is available. 

What are Indian's posters here on this thread for? Some of you state that you are happy that Pakistan was formed and have moved on. How so? You are on Pakistani forum arguing that Mr Azad was right and we would be better off without partition. Please think about it and do not feel that you have to post something if you do not have anything material

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notsuperstitious

superkaif said:


> fateh71
> 
> You sir are being selective. You are fully aware who my post was intended towards and it certainly wasnt you. Go back a few pages and it doesnt require a genius to work out who i was pointing the finger at.
> Then when Vinod bhai comes on and says "Bhai leave us alone" - i scratch my head thinking we are on PDF and having a debate or discussion where he is insinuating we have an obsessive nature? It doesn't make sense. If i felt "people weren't respecting me or my nation" then i would resign from the forum.
> fateh after a recent visit on one auspicious forum of your nation where the mods couldn't contain their glee and happiness at the loss of our soldiers on the glacier - i thanked the lord that i wasn't associated with 186 members that had such mentality.
> I thank Jinnah for the creation of Pakistan. I thank the mods for donating their time in making this the best defense forum in the world.



While I appreciate what you meant, you are being selective too. Surely you know what kind of trash some pakistanis talk abt india and hindus on the internet, don't you?

I can mention that here too, but when you are talking on PDF about a topic, one must not insult others national heroes, something we have to tolerate here a lot. Sure you are proud of jinnah, and we of our heroes. Lets not pretend to be on an imaginary moral high horse.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hotaki

Vinod2070 said:


> Mughal arse had been kicked and they were confined to just Delhi (at the mercy of Jats and Marathas) since 1700s.
> 
> Saltanat-e-Shah Alam
> Az Dilli ta Palam
> 
> i.e. the Empire of Shah Alam extends from Delhi to Palam.
> 
> And this guy was the grandfather of Bahadur Shah Jaffar.
> 
> But real history was never taught to you or never managed to penetrate!


 
Real history is something that your nation doesn't want you to learn, mughals ruled much of India in their prime.

According to history you get taught prithvi raj captured ghuri and ghuri begged for his life and prithvi raj released ghuri, your nation has to fake events to manipulate history.

Akbar was great because he had a Hindu wife and he was a lost sheep but aurangzeb wasn't because he was a pious Muslim.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Porus

fateh71 said:


> While I appreciate what you meant, you are being selective too. Surely you know what kind of trash some pakistanis talk abt india and hindus on the internet, don't you?
> 
> I can mention that here too, but when you are talking on PDF about a topic, one must not insult others national heroes, something we have to tolerate here a lot. Sure you are proud of jinnah, and we of our heroes. Lets not pretend to be on an imaginary moral high horse.



You should be grateful to us that this forum is not a rats $hit hole like bharat-rakshak.


----------



## fd24

fateh71 said:


> While I appreciate what you meant, you are being selective too. Surely you know what kind of trash some pakistanis talk abt india and hindus on the internet, don't you?
> 
> I can mention that here too, but when you are talking on PDF about a topic, one must not insult others national heroes, something we have to tolerate here a lot. Sure you are proud of jinnah, and we of our heroes. Lets not pretend to be on an imaginary moral high horse.



Go back to 2 weeks ago and look at the abuse Indian chaps gave Ghandi. Was very offensive.
By no means am i saying you have the idiots bearing your flag - dude we have our fair share! 
There are always pros and cons to all leaders and national heroes and sometimes out patriotism takes over working overdrive. I dont like insulting for the sake of it and was disappointed on what was written about Ghandi.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## holysaturn

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> *The Man who knew the Future of Pakistan.
> *​by Shorish Kashmiri, Matbooat Chattan, Lahore
> 
> *Congress president Maulana Abul Kalam Azad gave the following interview to journalist Shorish Kashmiri for a Lahore based Urdu magazine, Chattan, in April 1946.* It was a time when the Cabinet Mission was holding its proceedings in Delhi and Simla. Azad made some startling predictions during the course of the interview, saying that religious conflict would tear apart Pakistan and its eastern half would carve out its own future. He even said that Pakistans incompetent rulers might pave the way for military rule. According to Shorish Kashmiri, Azad had earmarked the early hours of the morning for him and the interview was conducted over a period of two weeks. This interview has not been published in any book so far  neither in the Azad centenary volumes nor in any other book comprising his writing or speeches  except for Kashmiris own book Abul Kalam Azad, which was printed only once by Matbooat Chattan Lahore, a now-defunct publishing house. Former Union Cabinet Minister Arif Mohammed Khan discovered the book after searching for many years and translated the interview for COVERT
> 
> Q: The Hindu Muslim dispute has become so acute that it has foreclosed any possibility of reconciliation. Dont you think that in this situation the birth of Pakistan has become inevitable?
> 
> A: If Pakistan were the solution of Hindu Muslim problem, then I would have extended my support to it. A section of Hindu opinion is now turning in its favour. By conceding NWFP, Sind, Balochistan and half of Punjab on one side and half of Bengal on the other, they think they will get the rest of India  a huge country that would be free from any claims of communal nature. If we use the Muslim League terminology, this new India will be a Hindu state both practically and temperamentally. This will not happen as a result of any conscious decision, but will be a logical consequence of its social realities. How can you expect a society that consists 90% of Hindus, who have lived with their ethos and values since prehistoric times, to grow differently? The factors that laid the foundation of Islam in Indian society and created a powerful following have become victim of the politics of partition. The communal hatred it has generated has completely extinguished all possibilities of spreading and preaching Islam. This communal politics has hurt the religion beyond measure. Muslims have turned away from the Quran. If they had taken their lessons from the Quran and the life of the Holy Prophet and had not forged communal politics in the name of religion then Islams growth would not have halted. By the time of the decline of the Mughal rule, the Muslims in India were a little over 22.5 million, that is about 65% of the present numbers. Since then the numbers kept increasing. If the Muslim politicians had not used the offensive language that embittered communal relations, and the other section acting as agents of British interests had not worked to widen the Hindu-Muslim breach, the number of Muslims in India would have grown higher. The political disputes we created in the name of religion have projected Islam as an instrument of political power and not what it is  a value system meant for the transformation of human soul. Under British influence, we turned Islam into a confined system, and following in the footsteps of other communities like Jews, Parsis and Hindus we transformed ourselves into a hereditary community. The Indian Muslims have frozen Islam and its message and divided themselves into many sects. Some sects were clearly born at the instance of colonial power. Consequently, these sects became devoid of all movement and dynamism and lost faith in Islamic values. The hallmark of Muslim existence was striving and now the very term is strange to them. Surely they are Muslims, but they follow their own whims and desires. In fact now they easily submit to political power, not to Islamic values. They prefer the religion of politics not the religion of the Quran. Pakistan is a political standpoint. Regardless of the fact whether it is the right solution to the problems of Indian Muslims, it is being demanded in the name of Islam. The question is when and where Islam provided for division of territories to settle populations on the basis of belief and unbelief. Does this find any sanction in the Quran or the traditions of the Holy Prophet? Who among the scholars of Islam has divided the dominion of God on this basis? If we accept this division in principle, how shall we reconcile it with Islam as a universal system? How shall we explain the ever growing Muslim presence in non-Muslim lands including India? Do they realise that if Islam had approved this principle then it would not have permitted its followers to go to the non-Muslim lands and many ancestors of the supporters of Pakistan would not have had even entered the fold of Islam? Division of territories on the basis of religion is a contraption devised by Muslim League. They can pursue it as their political agenda, but it finds no sanction in Islam or Quran. What is the cherished goal of a devout Muslim? Spreading the light of Islam or dividing territories along religious lines to pursue political ambitions? The demand for Pakistan has not benefited Muslims in any manner. How Pakistan can benefit Islam is a moot question and will largely depend on the kind of leadership it gets. The impact of western thought and philosophy has made the crisis more serious. The way the leadership of Muslim League is conducting itself will ensure that Islam will become a rare commodity in Pakistan and Muslims in India. This is a surmise and God alone knows what is in the womb of future. Pakistan, when it comes into existence, will face conflicts of religious nature. As far as I can see, the people who will hold the reins of power will cause serious damage to Islam. Their behaviour may result in the total alienation of the Pakistani youth who may become a part of non-religious movements. Today, in Muslim minority states the Muslim youth are more attached to religion than in Muslim majority states. You will see that despite the increased role of Ulema, the religion will lose its sheen in Pakistan.
> 
> Q: But many Ulema are with Quaid-e-Azam [M.A. Jinnah].
> 
> A: Many Ulema were with Akbare Azam too; they invented a new religion for him. Do not discuss individuals. Our history is replete with the doings of the Ulema who have brought humiliation and disgrace to Islam in every age and period. The upholders of truth are exceptions. How many of the Ulema find an honourable mention in the Muslim history of the last 1,300 years? There was one Imam Hanbal, one Ibn Taimiyya. In India we remember no Ulema except Shah Waliullah and his family. The courage of Alf Sani is beyond doubt, but those who filled the royal office with complaints against him and got him imprisoned were also Ulema. Where are they now? Does anybody show any respect to them?
> 
> Q: Maulana, what is wrong if Pakistan becomes a reality? After all, Islam is being used to pursue and protect the unity of the community.
> 
> A: You are using the name of Islam for a cause that is not right by Islamic standards. Muslim history bears testimony to many such enormities. In the battle of Jamal [fought between Imam Ali and Hadrat Aisha, widow of the Holy Prophet] Qurans were displayed on lances. Was that right? In Karbala the family members of the Holy Prophet were martyred by those Muslims who claimed companionship of the Prophet. Was that right? Hajjaj was a Muslim general and he subjected the holy mosque at Makka to brutal attack. Was that right? No sacred words can justify or sanctify a false motive.
> 
> If Pakistan was right for Muslims then I would have supported it. But I see clearly the dangers inherent in the demand. I do not expect people to follow me, but it is not possible for me to go against the call of my conscience. People generally submit either to coercion or to the lessons of their experience. Muslims will not hear anything against Pakistan unless they experience it. Today they can call white black, but they will not give up Pakistan. The only way it can be stopped now is either for the government not to concede it or for Mr Jinnah himself  if he agrees to some new proposal.
> 
> Now as I gather from the attitude of my own colleagues in the working committee, the division of India appears to be certain. But I must warn that the evil consequences of partition will not affect India alone, Pakistan will be equally haunted by them. The partition will be based on the religion of the population and not based on any natural barrier like mountain, desert or river. A line will be drawn; it is difficult to say how durable it would be.
> 
> We must remember that an entity conceived in hatred will last only as long as that hatred lasts. This hatred will overwhelm the relations between India and Pakistan. In this situation it will not be possible for India and Pakistan to become friends and live amicably unless some catastrophic event takes place. The politics of partition itself will act as a barrier between the two countries. It will not be possible for Pakistan to accommodate all the Muslims of India, a task beyond her territorial capability. On the other hand, it will not be possible for the Hindus to stay especially in West Pakistan. They will be thrown out or leave on their own. This will have its repercussions in India and the Indian Muslims will have three options before them:
> 
> 1. They become victims of loot and brutalities and migrate to Pakistan; but how many Muslims can find shelter there?
> 
> 2. They become subject to murder and other excesses. A substantial number of Muslims will pass through this ordeal until the bitter memories of partition are forgotten and the generation that had lived through it completes its natural term.
> 
> 3. A good number of Muslims, haunted by poverty, political wilderness and regional depredation decide to renounce Islam.
> 
> The prominent Muslims who are supporters of Muslim League will leave for Pakistan. The wealthy Muslims will take over the industry and business and monopolise the economy of Pakistan. But more than 30 million Muslims will be left behind in India. What promise Pakistan holds for them? The situation that will arise after the expulsion of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan will be still more dangerous for them. Pakistan itself will be afflicted by many serious problems. The greatest danger will come from international powers who will seek to control the new country, and with the passage of time this control will become tight. India will have no problem with this outside interference as it will sense danger and hostility from Pakistan.
> 
> The other important point that has escaped Mr Jinnahs attention is Bengal. He does not know that Bengal disdains outside leadership and rejects it sooner or later. During World War II, Mr Fazlul Haq revolted against Jinnah and was thrown out of the Muslim League. Mr H.S. Suhrawardy does not hold Jinnah in high esteem. Why only Muslim League, look at the history of Congress. The revolt of Subhas Chandra Bose is known to all. Gandhiji was not happy with the presidentship of Bose and turned the tide against him by going on a fast unto death at Rajkot. Subhas Bose rose against Gandhiji and disassociated himself from the Congress. The environment of Bengal is such that it disfavours leadership from outside and rises in revolt when it senses danger to its rights and interests.
> 
> The confidence of East Pakistan will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaquat Ali are alive. But after them any small incident will create resentment and disaffection. I feel that it will not be possible for East Pakistan to stay with West Pakistan for any considerable period of time. There is nothing common between the two regions except that they call themselves Muslims. But the fact of being Muslim has never created durable political unity anywhere in the world. The Arab world is before us; they subscribe to a common religion, a common civilisation and culture and speak a common language. In fact they acknowledge even territorial unity. But there is no political unity among them. Their systems of government are different and they are often engaged in mutual recrimination and hostility. On the other hand, the language, customs and way of life of East Pakistan are totally different from West Pakistan. The moment the creative warmth of Pakistan cools down, the contradictions will emerge and will acquire assertive overtones. These will be fuelled by the clash of interests of international powers and consequently both wings will separate. After the separation of East Pakistan, whenever it happens, West Pakistan will become the battleground of regional contradictions and disputes. The assertion of sub-national identities of Punjab, Sind, Frontier and Balochistan will open the doors for outside interference. It will not be long before the international powers use the diverse elements of Pakistani political leadership to break the country on the lines of Balkan and Arab states. Maybe at that stage we will ask ourselves, what have we gained and what have we lost.
> 
> The real issue is economic development and progress, it certainly is not religion. Muslim business leaders have doubts about their own ability and competitive spirit. They are so used to official patronage and favours that they fear new freedom and liberty. They advocate the two-nation theory to conceal their fears and want to have a Muslim state where they have the monopoly to control the economy without any competition from competent rivals. It will be interesting to watch how long they can keep this deception alive.
> 
> I feel that right from its inception, Pakistan will face some very serious problems:
> 
> 1. The incompetent political leadership will pave the way for military dictatorship as it has happened in many Muslim countries.
> 
> 2. The heavy burden of foreign debt.
> 
> 3. Absence of friendly relationship with neighbours and the possibility of armed conflict.
> 
> 4. Internal unrest and regional conflicts.
> 
> 5. The loot of national wealth by the neo-rich and industrialists of Pakistan.
> 
> 6. The apprehension of class war as a result of exploitation by the neo-rich.
> 
> 7. The dissatisfaction and alienation of the youth from religion and the collapse of the theory of Pakistan.
> 
> 8. The conspiracies of the international powers to control Pakistan.
> 
> In this situation, the stability of Pakistan will be under strain and the Muslim countries will be in no position to provide any worthwhile help. The assistance from other sources will not come without strings and it will force both ideological and territorial compromises.
> 
> Q: But the question is how Muslims can keep their community identity intact and how they can inculcate the attributes of the citizens of a Muslim state.
> 
> A: Hollow words cannot falsify the basic realities nor slanted questions can make the answers deficient. It amounts to distortion of the discourse. What is meant by community identity? If this community identity has remained intact during the British slavery, how will it come under threat in a free India in whose affairs Muslims will be equal participants? What attributes of the Muslim state you wish to cultivate? The real issue is the freedom of faith and worship and who can put a cap on that freedom. Will independence reduce the 90 million Muslims into such a helpless state that they will feel constrained in enjoying their religious freedom? If the British, who as a world power could not snatch this liberty, what magic or power do the Hindus have to deny this freedom of religion? These questions have been raised by those, who, under the influence of western culture, have renounced their own heritage and are now raising dust through political gimmickry.
> 
> Muslim history is an important part of Indian history. Do you think the Muslim kings were serving the cause of Islam? They had a nominal relationship with Islam; they were not Islamic preachers. Muslims of India owe their gratitude to Sufis, and many of these divines were treated by the kings very cruelly. Most of the kings created a large band of Ulema who were an obstacle in the path of the propagation of Islamic ethos and values. Islam, in its pristine form, had a tremendous appeal and in the first century won the hearts and minds of a large number of people living in and around Hejaz. But the Islam that came to India was different, the carriers were non-Arabs and the real spirit was missing. Still, the imprint of the Muslim period is writ large on the culture, music, art, architecture and languages of India. What do the cultural centres of India, like Delhi and Lucknow, represent? The underlying Muslim spirit is all too obvious.
> 
> If the Muslims still feel under threat and believe that they will be reduced to slavery in free India then I can only pray for their faith and hearts. If a man becomes disenchanted with life he can be helped to revival, but if someone is timid and lacks courage, then it is not possible to help him become brave and gutsy. The Muslims as a community have become cowards. They have no fear of God, instead they fear men. This explains why they are so obsessed with threats to their existence  a figment of their imagination.
> 
> After British takeover, the government committed all possible excesses against the Muslims. But Muslims did not cease to exist. On the contrary, they registered a growth that was more than average. The Muslim cultural ethos and values have their own charm. Then India has large Muslim neighbours on three sides. Why on earth the majority in this country will be interested to wipe out the Muslims? How will it promote their self interests? Is it so easy to finish 90 million people? In fact, Muslim culture has such attraction that I shall not be surprised if it comes to have the largest following in free India.
> 
> The world needs both, a durable peace and a philosophy of life. If the Hindus can run after Marx and undertake scholarly studies of the philosophy and wisdom of the West, they do not disdain Islam and will be happy to benefit from its principles. In fact they are more familiar with Islam and acknowledge that Islam does not mean parochialism of a hereditary community or a despotic system of governance. Islam is a universal call to establish peace on the basis of human equality. They know that Islam is the proclamation of a Messenger who calls to the worship of God and not his own worship. Islam means freedom from all social and economic discriminations and reorganisation of society on three basic principles of God-consciousness, righteous action and knowledge. In fact, it is we Muslims and our extremist behaviour that has created an aversion among non-Muslims for Islam. If we had not allowed our selfish ambitions to soil the purity of Islam then many seekers of truth would have found comfort in the bosom of Islam. Pakistan has nothing to do with Islam; it is a political demand that is projected by Muslim League as the national goal of Indian Muslims. I feel it is not the solution to the problems Muslims are facing. In fact it is bound to create more problems.
> 
> The Holy Prophet has said, God has made the whole earth a mosque for me. Now do not ask me to support the idea of the partition of a mosque. If the nine-crore Muslims were thinly scattered all over India, and demand was made to reorganise the states in a manner to ensure their majority in one or two regions, that was understandable. Again such a demand would not have been right from an Islamic viewpoint, but justifiable on administrative grounds. But the situation, as it exists, is drastically different. All the border states of India have Muslim majorities sharing borders with Muslim countries. Tell me, who can eliminate these populations? By demanding Pakistan we are turning our eyes away from the history of the last 1,000 years and, if I may use the League terminology, throwing more than 30 million Muslims into the lap of Hindu Raj. The Hindu Muslim problem that has created political tension between Congress and League will become a source of dispute between the two states and with the aid of international powers this may erupt into full scale war anytime in future.
> 
> The question is often raised that if the idea of Pakistan is so fraught with dangers for the Muslims, why is it being opposed by the Hindus? I feel that the opposition to the demand is coming from two quarters. One is represented by those who genuinely feel concerned about imperial machinations and strongly believe that a free, united India will be in a better position to defend itself. On the other hand, there is a section who opposes Pakistan with the motive to provoke Muslims to become more determined in their demand and thus get rid of them. Muslims have every right to demand constitutional safeguards, but partition of India cannot promote their interests. The demand is the politically incorrect solution of a communal problem.
> 
> In future India will be faced with class problems, not communal disputes; the conflict will be between capital and labour. The communist and socialist movements are growing and it is not possible to ignore them. These movements will increasingly fight for the protection of the interest of the underclass. The Muslim capitalists and the feudal classes are apprehensive of this impending threat. Now they have given this whole issue a communal colour and have turned the economic issue into a religious dispute. But Muslims alone are not responsible for it. This strategy was first adopted by the British government and then endorsed by the political minds of Aligarh. Later, Hindu short-sightedness made matters worse and now freedom has become contingent on the partition of India.
> 
> Jinnah himself was an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. In one Congress session Sarojini Naidu had commended him with this title. He was a disciple of Dadabhai Naoroji. He had refused to join the 1906 deputation of Muslims that initiated communal politics in India. In 1919 he stood firmly as a nationalist and opposed Muslim demands before the Joint Select Committee. On 3 October 1925, in a letter to the Times of India he rubbished the suggestion that Congress is a Hindu outfit. In the All Parties Conferences of 1925 and 1928, he strongly favoured a joint electorate. While speaking at the National Assembly in 1925, he said, I am a nationalist first and a nationalist last and exhorted his colleagues, be they Hindus or Muslims, not to raise communal issues in the House and help make the Assembly a national institution in the truest sense of the term.
> 
> In 1928, Jinnah supported the Congress call to boycott Simon Commission. Till 1937, he did not favour the demand to partition India. In his message to various student bodies he stressed the need to work for Hindu Muslim unity. But he felt aggrieved when the Congress formed governments in seven states and ignored the Muslim League. In 1940 he decided to pursue the partition demand to check Muslim political decline. In short, the demand for Pakistan is his response to his own political experiences. Mr Jinnah has every right to his opinion about me, but I have no doubts about his intelligence. As a politician he has worked overtime to fortify Muslim communalism and the demand for Pakistan. Now it has become a matter of prestige for him and he will not give it up at any cost.
> 
> Q: It is clear that Muslims are not going to turn away from their demand for Pakistan. Why have they become so impervious to all reason and logic of arguments?
> 
> A: It is difficult, rather impossible, to fight against the misplaced enthusiasm of a mob, but to suppress ones conscience is worse than death. Today the Muslims are not walking, they are flowing. The problem is that Muslims have not learnt to walk steady; they either run or flow with the tide. When a group of people lose confidence and self-respect, they are surrounded by imaginary doubts and dangers and fail to make a distinction between the right and the wrong. The true meaning of life is realised not through numerical strength but through firm faith and righteous action. British politics has sown many seeds of fear and distrust in the mental field of Muslims. Now they are in a frightful state, bemoaning the departure of the British and demanding partition before the foreign masters leave. Do they believe that partition will avert all the dangers to their lives and bodies? If these dangers are real then they will still haunt their borders and any armed conflict will result in much greater loss of lives and possessions.
> 
> Q: But Hindus and Muslims are two different nations with different and disparate inclinations. How can the unity between the two be achieved?
> 
> A: This is an obsolete debate. I have seen the correspondence between Allama Iqbal and Maulana Husain Ahmad Madni on the subject. In the Quran the term qaum has been used not only for the community of believers but has also been used for distinct human groupings generally. What do we wish to achieve by raising this debate about the etymological scope of terms like millat [community], qaum [nation] and ummat [group]? In religious terms India is home to many people  the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs etc. The differences between Hindu religion and Islam are vast in scope. But these differences cannot be allowed to become an obstacle in the path of India gaining her freedom nor do the two distinct and different systems of faith negate the idea of unity of India. The issue is of our national independence and how we can secure it. Freedom is a blessing and is the right of every human being. It cannot be divided on the basis of religion.
> 
> Muslims must realise that they are bearers of a universal message. They are not a racial or regional grouping in whose territory others cannot enter. Strictly speaking, Muslims in India are not one community; they are divided among many well-entrenched sects. You can unite them by arousing their anti-Hindu sentiment but you cannot unite them in the name of Islam. To them Islam means undiluted loyalty to their own sect. Apart from Wahabi, Sunni and Shia there are innumerable groups who owe allegiance to different saints and divines. Small issues like raising hands during the prayer and saying Amen loudly have created disputes that defy solution. The Ulema have used the instrument of takfeer [fatwas declaring someone as infidel] liberally. Earlier, they used to take Islam to the disbelievers; now they take away Islam from the believers. Islamic history is full of instances of how good and pious Muslims were branded kafirs. Prophets alone had the capability to cope with these mindboggling situations. Even they had to pass through times of afflictions and trials. The fact is that when reason and intelligence are abandoned and attitudes become fossilised then the job of the reformer becomes very difficult.
> 
> But today the situation is worse than ever. Muslims have become firm in their communalism; they prefer politics to religion and follow their worldly ambitions as commands of religion. History bears testimony to the fact that in every age we ridiculed those who pursued the good with consistency, snuffed out the brilliant examples of sacrifice and tore the flags of selfless service. Who are we, the ordinary mortals; even high ranking Prophets were not spared by these custodians of traditions and customs.
> 
> Q: You closed down your journal Al-Hilal a long time back. Was it due to your disappointment with the Muslims who were wallowing in intellectual desolation, or did you feel like proclaiming azan [call to prayer] in a barren desert?
> 
> A: I abandoned Al-Hilal not because I had lost faith in its truth. This journal created great awareness among a large section of Muslims. They renewed their faith in Islam, in human freedom and in consistent pursuit of righteous goals. In fact my own life was greatly enriched by this experience and I felt like those who had the privilege of learning under the companionship of the Messenger of God. My own voice entranced me and under its impact I burnt out like a phoenix. Al-Hilal had served its purpose and a new age was dawning. Based on my experiences, I made a reappraisal of the situation and decided to devote all my time and energy for the attainment of our national freedom. I was firm in my belief that freedom of Asia and Africa largely depends on Indias freedom and Hindu Muslim unity is key to Indias freedom. Even before the First World War, I had realised that India was destined to attain freedom, and no power on earth would be able to deny it. I was also clear in my mind about the role of Muslims. I ardently wished that Muslims would learn to walk together with their countrymen and not give an opportunity to history to say that when Indians were fighting for their independence, Muslims were looking on as spectators. Let nobody say that instead of fighting the waves they were standing on the banks and showing mirth on the drowning of boats carrying the freedom fighters
> 
> Maulana Abul Kalam Azad: The Man Who Knew The Future Of Pakistan Before Its Creation « Koolblue's Blog
> What a great man.He knew that the 2 nation theory was a recipe for disaster.



i have read about him in history books in school but dint know he was a man of such caliber and understanding,,,,,,,,,,this guy has predicted almost everything ...........now am a big fan of and have even added him in my FB likes.


----------



## hotaki

This forum should change its name to idf as i feel there are more Indians here then pakistanis and admin is happy as he cares only for traffic and donations and not for the Pakistani community.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

hotaki said:


> Real history is something that your nation doesn't want you to learn, mughals ruled much of India in their prime.
> 
> According to history you get taught prithvi raj captured ghuri and ghuri begged for his life and prithvi raj released ghuri, your nation has to fake events to manipulate history.
> 
> Akbar was great because he had a Hindu wife and he was a lost sheep *but aurangzeb wasn't because he was a pious Muslim.*


 
No. He was a pathetic bigot. An extremist who destroyed many temples and forcibly converted many people.

He antagonized the Indians to an extent that the Mughal rule was doomed...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hotaki

Vinod2070 said:


> No. He was a pathetic bigot. An extremist who destroyed many temples and forcibly converted many people.
> 
> He antagonized the Indians to an extent that the Mughal rule was doomed...



Great man aurangzeb the best of all mughals in my opinion, if he was so pathetic then how come a foreigner ruling you?.

Never answered why you distort history and says prithvi spared ghuris life?.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bang Galore

Now that we have all had our fun I must point out that the very basic contention of the thread is held up on false pretences because it is extremely unlikely that these two telegrams are in any way related.







Azad's telegram is dated *12th July 1940.* Jinnah's supposed reply is dated *19th February 1941*. I don't believe Mr.Jinnah's 's staunch followers believe that he was so slow a reader that he took over *7 months* to reply. Maulana Azad's telegram refers to Mr.Jinnah's statement of July(the very same month Azad wrote the letter) whereas we have to believe that Jinnah would reply to an urgent telegram some 7 months later. As I said, very unlikely!

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## 53fd

The reason why Jinnah opted for a separate homeland was, because by all indications at the time, the Indian subcontinent was looking to become a non-secular nation, where the majority would dominate the minority groups. 

Jinnah envisioned a secular, Muslim majority state for Pakistan, where everyone (regardless of religion, ethnicity, color) would be equal. What happened post 1947 was that Pakistan abandoned the secularism Jinnah had envisioned (along the lines of Ataturk in Turkey). The Deobandis in India, who had opposed the creation of Pakistan infiltrated, & started influencing the affairs of Pakistan. India meanwhile, became more "secular" with time. Pakistan is where it is today not because it fulfilled Jinnah's vision, but because they did the opposite of that.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Porus

hotaki said:


> This forum should change its name to idf as i feel there are more Indians here then pakistanis and admin is happy as he cares only for traffic and donations and not for the Pakistani community.



If it is changed to IDF then almost all Pakistanis will immediately leave and very few Indians will remain here. Is there any Pakistani discussion forum or even newspaper which is not regularly frequented by the people from our eastern neighbouring country? Look at this Vinod guy, he asked us to leave them alone but he himself will keep trolling here. He has apparently never heard an old adage that there are only two kind of people, those who have some self-respect and those who don't.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Bang Galore said:


> Now that we have all had our fun I must point out that the very basic contention of the thread is held up on false pretences because it is extremely unlikely that these two telegrams are in any way related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Azad's telegram is dated *12th July 1940.* Jinnah's supposed reply is dated *19th February 1941*. I don't believe Mr.Jinnah's 's staunch followers believe that he was so slow a reader that he took over *7 months* to reply. Maulana Azad's telegram refers to Mr.Jinnah's statement of July(the very same month Azad wrote the letter) whereas we have to believe that Jinnah would reply to an urgent telegram some 7 months later. As I said, very unlikely!




I had my doubts from the very beginning , from when i saw the term "Confidential" in the start.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bang Galore

bilalhaider said:


> The reason why Jinnah opted for a separate homeland was, because by all indications at the time, the Indian subcontinent was looking to become a non-secular nation, where the majority would dominate the minority groups.
> 
> Jinnah envisioned a secular, Muslim majority state for Pakistan, where everyone (regardless of religion, ethnicity, color) would be equal. What happened post 1947 was that Pakistan abandoned the secularism Jinnah had envisioned (along the lines of Ataturk in Turkey). The Deobandis in India, who had opposed the creation of Pakistan infiltrated, & started influencing the affairs of Pakistan. India meanwhile, became more "secular" with time. Pakistan is where it is today not because it fulfilled Jinnah's vision, but because they did the opposite of that.



What you are saying is that India fulfilled Jinnah's vision while Pakistan became the state that he originally wanted to get away from?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## holysaturn

hotaki said:


> This forum should change its name to idf as i feel there are more Indians here then pakistanis and admin is happy as he cares only for traffic and donations and not for the Pakistani community.


PDF is administered by pakistanis and is free to all nationalities so there is no question on changing the name................a check on the traffic will be against the spirit of this forum ........if you think traffic check is necessary then it must be mandatory for all including chinese bcoz w/o indians the forum will be sino-pak defence forum........


----------



## 53fd

Bang Galore said:


> What you are saying is that India fulfilled Jinnah's vision while Pakistan became the state that he originally wanted to get away from?



I would not say India fulfilled Jinnah's vision either, as it quite evident by the huge communal problems in India (resulting in huge riots of the "religious flavor" from time to time). 

Pakistan certainly did not fulfill Jinnah's vision for secularism, & while India did a much better job than Pakistan on that front, it did not fulfill what Jinnah envisioned either. What Turkey has been is what Jinnah envisioned for Pakistan, & neither India nor Pakistan are like that. India is a country where the sensitivities of the Hindu majority dominate the rest of the religious groups, especially the non-Dharmic ones (I can give a few examples on that too). I would call India an amalgamation of (the secular aspects of) Hinduism & secularism, or a pseudo Hindu-secular society.


----------



## Great Sachin

Jinnah and Nehru both were greedy for power. Jinnah dying to become PM of India ......or else division of India...and he can become King of divided part called Pakistan in the name of 2 nation theory....If he was made PM of India..he would have forgotten 2NT and welfare of muslim...Azad was more concerned of India


----------



## mautkimaut

bilalhaider said:


> The reason why Jinnah opted for a separate homeland was, because by all indications at the time, the Indian subcontinent was looking to become a non-secular nation, where the majority would dominate the minority groups.
> 
> Jinnah envisioned a secular, Muslim majority state for Pakistan, where everyone (regardless of religion, ethnicity, color) would be equal. What happened post 1947 was that Pakistan abandoned the secularism Jinnah had envisioned (along the lines of Ataturk in Turkey). The Deobandis in India, who had opposed the creation of Pakistan infiltrated, & started influencing the affairs of Pakistan. India meanwhile, became more "secular" with time. Pakistan is where it is today not because it fulfilled Jinnah's vision, but because they did the opposite of that.



exactly..
I believe, that the Muslims of that time were alarmed by the prospect of being dominated by Hindus.So they looked for a place where they could be at peace and free to pursue their religion.
Although I believe , this was a bit alarmist. but fear is a part of the human nature.

Sadly though the Pakistani dictators have taken Pakistan away from what Jinnah dreamt of ..

It has become a hollow shell of all the people's aspiration who wanted a land for religion of peace and Peace is what is not found in the country now...


----------



## Bang Galore

Syama Ayas said:


> I had my doubts from the very beginning , from when i saw the term "Confidential" in the start.



The telegrams are genuine, not so sure of the dates.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## takeiteasy

Abdol Kalam Azaad if He is right or wrong, Pakistan is a reality and Your people must be proud of Your country. There is no, "We were part of India" syndrome encouraged nor "We Desis" generalization(clubbing south asia) encouraged. after 3 or 4 generations, Pakistan will integrate more to their brothers in the middle east and must distance from India. in the next decades, Indian union will mature to be peaceful and a developed south Asia(India,Nepal,Bhutan,Bangladesh,Srilanka). 

tbh, satymeva jayate. hence, the truth.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Karachiite said:


> I equally respect both Quaid and Abul Kalam Azad. *Azad was a true patriot and huge supporter of Hindu-Muslim unity, every Indian should be proud of him*.



Yes My dear, your post is clarifying it. I knew it already who could show those pathetic videos of AK Azad.

*IMP INFO FOR PATRIOTIC PDF MEMBERS* 
*I am watching A.K.Azad's negative speeches for Pakistan on Karachi local Cable TV Channels that usually shows Altaf Hussain's (FIQAR ANGAIZ) Speeches, MQM Campaigns & lovely songs.* 

DEATH TO TRAITORS.


----------



## Vinod2070

Oscar said:


> They are suppressed.. but then their numbers dont count.. and we are already listed as an Islamic country *while you guys wave the banner of secularism like you invented it.*



Why do you care what we call ourselves?

Partition and two nation theory meant a complete break. An irreversible separation.

You decided to move on, find a new life.

And in the best traditions of a Sha Rukh movie, we say: "Jee le apni jindagi".

Just leave us alone. We are not doing anything to impress you.



> We admit we are bigoted.. but your hiding your double standards on the guise of "show boats" has to be pointed out.



You always assume that we are comparable. We are not!

We have chosen secularism because that is what the Hindu majority of the country wants. Not to impress you! You have nothing to do with that decision at all.



> Wasnt there the issue of Low Muslim representation in the Military..
> So if Muslims were really cared for.. Id suppose the political setup would work to bring their standards up.
> An Azim Premji or A.R Rehman does not effect the ones having to wash clothes in slums.
> There are showboats here.. why hide yours under the guise of "its really all ok here".


 
Much of the problems related to Muslim backwardness is no different from that of other communities.

The Muslims have made tremendous progress from the very low base at partition when most educated Muslims left for Pakistan.

Now they have better indicators than Pakistani Muslims and are improving. Some still fall victims to the extremist elements like Bukhari (OBL supporter) and have regressive social values (no woman to work fatwa by Deoband etc.).

As our politics is vote bank based, these pathetic extremist and regressive Muslim leaders are courted and keep the community backward.

But we absolutely reject your claim to represent them to us!

They are our people and nothing to do with you. You take care of Pakistanis of all religions and we take care of Indians of all religions.

*If you really want to help Indian Muslims, there is one thing you can do.

Stop the "non state actors".*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Farah Sohail

Great Sachin said:


> Jinnah and Nehru both were greedy for power. Jinnah dying to become PM of India ......or else division of India...and he can become King of divided part called Pakistan in the name of 2 nation theory....If he was made PM of India..he would have forgotten 2NT and welfare of muslim...Azad was more concerned of India



Would u mind reading some history? Jinnah was offered Prime Minister ship of united India by Gandhi, hence your claim proves to be totally wrong


----------



## Vinod2070

Oscar said:


> The minorities are increasing because the majority has increased exponentially at the same time.
> 
> *They simply had more kids.. quite simple to guess*... the same is why Muslims in India grew.. they just made more kids.



You really believe that!

By that logic Pakistan's population should have become several times that of India by now!

Just think over it. Do some simple arithmetic and you will realize the absurdity of this comment.



> Not sure how that is relavent..
> FYI ..Islamic republic vs Secular republic.



*If you are not secular, you have no right to make demands on secular countries as well.

Should be simple to understand.*



> in 71 Bangladeshis were killed.. simple as that. Muslims and Hindus.. *off course your country used the Hindu card to create more Hindu militants.. so basically India made sure more Hindus were killed..*



Yes, Pakistani forces killing Pakistani Hindus and somehow India is responsible.

All the major leaders of AL were Muslims I guess.

But I am not surprised by your answer. It is typical and expected.



> Yes Pakistan has.. its an Islamic republic under Mullah's.. not Jinnah's vision anyway.
> 
> No.. He was too busy trying to croon the Vande Mataram more than his neighbors.. while the other party members stick to their normal expression of party language and banners.. his must include an Indian flag to prove loyalty... as do all other Muslim candidates.. Kind of funny as to how he has to be more Indian than the average Indian.. most of his cousins are living in much larger properties.. enjoying the good life...who.. did not actually migrate in 47..
> they came in around the 50's and 60's.. after they saw that India wasnt delivering on its promises.
> Perhaps this family is only anomaly .. while other Muslims have prospered?
> But apart fromt the fact that Lucknow is a really shitty place.. I found very little prosperity in that Muslim majority.
> And here is the even weirder stuff.. this family.. this household.. were extreme supporters of congress and Nehru.
> My great grandfather was a close friend of Mr Nehru.. those who could walk into the PM's office.
> Ran a daily urdu back then.. which eventually closed down...
> Now if these people.. who were part of those that rooted for India... end up like this..
> Something is going wrong then..
> 
> Your(and apparently others) whole tirade is on why I as a Pakistan am not qualified to speak..rather than actually giving me say a link to reports of Muslims Financial status on average.. representaion.. etc.
> 
> "you cant talk about us since you are in the shitter too"
> And thats it.. that's all you got?


 
Once the two nation theory was implemented and Pakistan was created and all that happened, happened, you still think you can make demands on us?

Yes, no Pakistani speaks for any Indian. Your assumption that you are entitled to that is superfluous.


----------



## Vinod2070

> *We must remember that an entity conceived in hatred will last only as long as that hatred lasts.* This hatred will overwhelm the relations between India and Pakistan. In this situation it will not be possible for India and Pakistan to become friends and live amicably unless some catastrophic event takes place. The politics of partition itself will act as a barrier between the two countries. It will not be possible for Pakistan to accommodate all the Muslims of India, a task beyond her territorial capability. *On the other hand, it will not be possible for the Hindus to stay especially in West Pakistan. They will be thrown out or leave on their own.* This will have its repercussions in India and the Indian Muslims will have three options before them:
> 
> 1. They become victims of loot and brutalities and migrate to Pakistan; but how many Muslims can find shelter there?
> 
> 2. They become subject to murder and other excesses. A substantial number of Muslims will pass through this ordeal until the bitter memories of partition are forgotten and the generation that had lived through it completes its natural term.
> 
> 3. A good number of Muslims, haunted by poverty, political wilderness and regional depredation decide to renounce Islam.



This guy was a genius. He foretold exactly the bigotry that will be perpetrated in Pakistan!


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Oscar said:


> The minorities are increasing because the majority has increased exponentially at the same time.
> They simply had more kids.. quite simple to guess... the same is why Muslims in India grew.. they just made more kids.
> 
> Not sure how that is relavent..
> FYI ..Islamic republic vs Secular republic.
> 
> in 71 Bangladeshis were killed.. simple as that. Muslims and Hindus.. off course your country used the Hindu card to create more Hindu militants.. so basically India made sure more Hindus were killed..
> 
> Yes Pakistan has.. its an Islamic republic under Mullah's.. not Jinnah's vision anyway.
> 
> No.. He was too busy trying to croon the Vande Mataram more than his neighbors.. while the other party members stick to their normal expression of party language and banners.. his must include an Indian flag to prove loyalty... as do all other Muslim candidates.. Kind of funny as to how he has to be more Indian than the average Indian.. most of his cousins are living in much larger properties.. enjoying the good life...who.. did not actually migrate in 47..
> they came in around the 50's and 60's.. after they saw that India wasnt delivering on its promises.
> Perhaps this family is only anomaly .. while other Muslims have prospered?
> But apart fromt the fact that Lucknow is a really shitty place.. I found very little prosperity in that Muslim majority.
> And here is the even weirder stuff.. this family.. this household.. were extreme supporters of congress and Nehru.
> My great grandfather was a close friend of Mr Nehru.. those who could walk into the PM's office.
> Ran a daily urdu back then.. which eventually closed down...
> Now if these people.. who were part of those that rooted for India... end up like this..
> Something is going wrong then..
> 
> Your(and apparently others) whole tirade is on why I as a Pakistan am not qualified to speak..rather than actually giving me say a link to reports of Muslims Financial status on average.. representaion.. etc.
> 
> "you cant talk about us since you are in the shitter too"
> And thats it.. that's all you got?



who are you fooling sir ? your minorities are neither increasing in percentage term nor in absolute term...but In India it is other way round...I think they are not having enough sex....

And why on earth they want to move in India and and your uncle, chacha, baba etc don't want to come to pakistan ..?? 

Indian minorities have more kid but without literacy and education ..main reason behind their backwardness...thanks for pointing that out.

In 71 bangladeshis were not killed infact they were pakistanis..I hope you won't disagree...and it was proven that forget about hindu muslim ..muslims (read pakistani) can't live with their bros...

here you go...

altaf hussain begging to india






*Yes Pakistan has.. its an Islamic republic under Mullah's.. not Jinnah's vision anyway.*

so finally jinnah or his followers failed to achieve the objective behind the creation of Pakistan... Azad sahab proved right 

You are feeling your post with rhetoric ..tell me does he want to move in Pakistan ??? let be open about it...like many minorities want to move to India from Pakistan

I don't think any place can be more shitty than karachi...you have thousands of reasons for that.

Yes as a pakistani you don't have any rights to talk about religious minorities....do you want me to open pandora box fro you...

And for the records The richest muslim in south aisa is a Indian muslim....

and please do compare the status of Indian and pakistani muslims..

and still you are clueless or don't have any idea to prove that he was just a show piece ....

In india we have a system and functional democracy.. we are not conditioned like you ..who believe only one dictator can run the whole nation and rest are show piece.


----------



## Vinod2070

> he confidence of East Pakistan will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaquat Ali are alive. But after them any small incident will create resentment and disaffection. *I feel that it will not be possible for East Pakistan to stay with West Pakistan for any considerable period of time. There is nothing common between the two regions except that they call themselves Muslims.
> 
> But the fact of being Muslim has never created durable political unity anywhere in the world. The Arab world is before us; they subscribe to a common religion, a common civilisation and culture and speak a common language. In fact they acknowledge even territorial unity. But there is no political unity among them. *



He obviously understood the Muslims better than Mr. Jinnah who was not a religious Muslim.

Though we are glad for the partition, good to keep things in perspective.



> On the other hand, the language, customs and way of life of East Pakistan are totally different from West Pakistan. The moment the creative warmth of Pakistan cools down, the contradictions will emerge and will acquire assertive overtones. These will be fuelled by the clash of interests of international powers and consequently both wings will separate.



Already happened.



> After the separation of East Pakistan, whenever it happens, West Pakistan will become the battleground of regional contradictions and disputes. *The assertion of sub-national identities of Punjab, Sind, Frontier and Balochistan will open the doors for outside interference. *It will not be long before the international powers use the diverse elements of Pakistani political leadership to break the country on the lines of Balkan and Arab states.



Ongoing.



> Maybe at that stage we will ask ourselves, what have we gained and what have we lost.



The dice has been cast.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jbond197

An amusing fact - 

The descendants of both Jinnah (Wadia family) & Abul Kalam Azad (Aamir Khan & Nazma Heptulla etc.. ) rightly chose to stay in India and now they are among the most prosperous ones..

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Vinod2070

> By conceding NWFP, Sind, Balochistan and half of Punjab on one side and half of Bengal on the other, they think they will get the rest of India &#8212; a huge country that would be free from any claims of communal nature. If we use the Muslim League terminology, *this new India will be a Hindu state both practically and temperamentally. This will not happen as a result of any conscious decision, but will be a logical consequence of its social realities. How can you expect a society that consists 90% of Hindus, who have lived with their ethos and values since prehistoric times, to grow differently?*



He says it as it is.

The India of now, after the two nation theory is a country of Dharmic values that gives equal rights to all but its values are unmistakably Dharmic.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bang Galore

> By conceding NWFP, Sind, Balochistan and half of Punjab on one side and half of Bengal on the other, they think they will get the rest of India &#8212; a huge country that would be free from any claims of communal nature. If we use the Muslim League terminology, *this new India will be a Hindu state both practically and temperamentally. This will not happen as a result of any conscious decision, but will be a logical consequence of its social realities. How can you expect a society that consists 90% of Hindus, who have lived with their ethos and values since prehistoric times, to grow differently?*



Herein lies the answer to many a Pakistani question. The country through its constitution will always be secular but ethos & value will be heavily influenced by Hinduism for the reasons given above. Fault, if any will have to be laid at those advocating the 2NT, who by their success ensured an Hinduised India. Secular but with Hindu ethos, just like european countries & the U.S. are secular but with christian ethos.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## chitti

forget all this.. today,... pak businessmen are salivating at the prospect of selling in india.. the day is not too far when many pakistanis will park their money in india as safe haven.. then lets talk.

you are cooked anyways... lol

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## vsdoc

I believe that the Hindu ethos inherently has always been secular and chilled out in the form of tolerance of various viewpoints - religious and cultural - within and without their own fold. 

We would not have lasted as a nation were that not the case for the past 65 years.

Other religions would not have found the space to thrive and grow alongside were that not the case for centuries before that.

India was a melting pot long before the term was made fashionable in the modern world.

We do not need lessons from others on what it means to be truly secular.

Just as we did not need lessons on the same from a man who set out to create a secular nation by ripping one into two on the basis of religion.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> forget all this.. today,... pak businessmen are salivating at the prospect of selling in india.. the day is not too far when many pakistanis will park their money in india as safe haven.. then lets talk.


 
Well let them, most pakistanis are a sad case these days they are more interested in money and will trade with the devil for profits.

They rather have good relations with people whom we despise, i am more and more becoming a nationalist day by day due to pakistans and its policies with India, at times i wish my people pukhtoons and balochs never opted to join Pakistan we never really fitted in as we can clearly see eastern side of indus is getting in to bed with its cousins.

We created Pakistan in the name of islam 
and not in the name of secularism, Islam is the only way forward and those who seek secularism should head for the nearest exit.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## American Pakistani

There is no comparision between the two. One was a Leader other was a Slave, one teach us to live with pride & honour other teach us to live in slavery. Yes the leader was our great nation's father, Great Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, other one was azad who was not even azad.

Long Live Pakistan.
Pakistan Zindabad
Quaid-e-Azam Zindabad

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Rusty

chitti said:


> friend , unfortunately whe it comes to everyday life, business, commerce and work will get you your daily roti not praying to god. Desire is secular, the hindu likes the same things a muslim does. eats similar etc. there is nothing wrong in trade and commerce.if you didnt want that whole muslim world will be poor.
> your baloch are being exploited by punjabis and you dont even realise that.oh well
> 
> 
> pakistan is the biggest pron watchers in the world. do you watch it , mr. desibaba?




please keep the crocodile tears to yourself. 
God knows you Indians need more help feeding your poor then anyone. 
And let's not even talk about exploitation or we will end up derailing this thread with talks of India. 
Balochis and Punjabis are brothers, we have a common history, religion and country. 


But we both know why you are really here. 
131 posts in less then a month. 
It seems like India blocked your favorite **** site and you needed a new outlet.


----------



## mahabharath

Amazing how Azad envisioned the inevitable. Had it been this other way around, this guy would have become philosopher, guide and 'almost prophet' kind of figure in somebody's books.


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> friend , unfortunately whe it comes to everyday life, business, commerce and work will get you your daily roti not praying to god. Desire is secular, the hindu likes the same things a muslim does. eats similar etc. there is nothing wrong in trade and commerce.if you didnt want that whole muslim world will be poor.
> your baloch are being exploited by punjabis and you dont even realise that.oh well
> 
> 
> pakistan is the biggest pron watchers in the world. do you watch it , mr. desibaba?



Balochs are exploited by Punjabis come on man you can do better then that, Punjabi exploiting balochs is true as India being a secular state that treats all its citizens as equal.

You fail to mention your exploits in Kashmir, 1984 of sikhs in Punjab, of Muslims in gujrat and elsewhere and the dalits, very convenient you fail to mention these.

Regarding roti that is provided the day you are born, maybe not the best but something, so you see that's the foundation of our faith, what other muslims so or who they trade with is their business, i am talking about Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chitti

Rusty said:


> please keep the crocodile tears to yourself.
> God knows you Indians need more help feeding your poor then anyone.
> And let's not even talk about exploitation or we will end up derailing this thread with talks of India.
> Balochis and Punjabis are brothers, we have a common history, religion and country.
> 
> 
> But we both know why you are really here.
> 131 posts in less then a month.
> It seems like India blocked your favorite **** site and you needed a new outlet.


its true that these punjabi muslims are the vile ones who oppress a.ll the other muslims of Pak. think about it.

you guys are different nations. only religion is same. like europe although same religion nations are different. i think baloch , sindh and kp should be going their own ways.. and it will happen soon, inshallah.

So are you calling PDF as **** site?


----------



## hotaki

mahabharath said:


> Amazing how Azad envisioned the inevitable. Had it been this other way around, this guy would have become philosopher, guide and 'almost prophet' kind of figure in their land.



He didn't envision jack, if he was a true believer then he would have known no man can predict future and islamically its forbidden. 

Mr azad was an Indian regardless of him being a Muslim doesn't matter as Indian Muslim or Hindu is the same foe us, true Muslims were those who did hijrat in 47, the ones who stayed behind did so for wordly possessions like Mr azad, so their commitment to their faith is questionable, i believe there is a special word for such people, munafiq.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chitti

hotaki said:


> He didn't envision jack, if he was a true believer then he would have known no man can predict future and islamically its forbidden.
> 
> Mr azad was an Indian regardless of him being a Muslim doesn't matter as Indian Muslim or Hindu is the same foe us, true Muslims were those who did hijrat in 47, the ones who stayed behind did so for wordly possessions like Mr azad, so their commitment to their faith is questionable, i believe there is a special word for such people, munafiq.


what about shirki mushrik with a dash of lanti


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> its true that these punjabi muslims are the vile ones who oppress a.ll the other muslims of Pak. think about it.
> 
> you guys are different nations. only religion is same. like europe although same religion nations are different. i think baloch , sindh and kp should be going their own ways.. and it will happen soon, inshallah.
> 
> So are you calling PDF as **** site?



Only time will tell but no matter what way they go it won't be with you guys, i been listening to Indians banging on about punjabis yet we live with them and i see no problems.

My dear timid little friend from across the border the people have become smart to divide and rule.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chitti

hotaki said:


> He didn't envision jack, if he was a true believer then he would have known no man can predict future and islamically its forbidden.
> 
> Mr azad was an Indian regardless of him being a Muslim doesn't matter as Indian Muslim or Hindu is the same foe us, true Muslims were those who did hijrat in 47, the ones who stayed behind did so for wordly possessions like Mr azad, so their commitment to their faith is questionable, i believe there is a special word for such people, munafiq.


astrlogy is a science. if you give me you date of birth and time and place.. i can tell you your future .



hotaki said:


> Only time will tell but no matter what way they go it won't be with you guys, i been listening to Indians banging on about punjabis yet we live with them and i see no problems.
> 
> My dear timid little friend from across the border the *people have become smart* to divide and rule.



thats why all kinds of muslims are fighting each other in pak, afg and all over the muslim world? you are a divided people. in fact you never united. sindh , baloch and kp are indeed different nations. pashtoons will definitely not recognize durand line


----------



## cloud_9

The Cripps Mission: A Reappraisal

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## K-Xeroid

American Pakistani said:


> There is no comparision between the two. One was a Leader other was a Slave, one teach us to live with pride & honour other teach us to live in slavery. Yes the leader was our great nation's father, Great Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, other one was azad who was not even azad.
> 
> Long Live Pakistan.
> Pakistan Zindabad
> Quaid-e-Azam Zindabad


Exactly it shows that How much Kalam Azad was a de-illusional about india and its secularism. His slavery kind of mentality really helped him to satisfy himself, Kalam Azad was a kind a selfish guy, Never understands the real matters of muslims , never represented muslim's opinion. and On other hand Quaid-e-azam a pure ideologist managed to figure out the real propaganda and commitments that was on-going b\w British and Congress.. There is no doubt in it that Pakistan was created for muslims on the basis of two nation theory.

Long Live Pakistan.
Pakistan Zindabad
Quaid-e-Azam Zindabad

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rusty

chitti said:


> its true that these punjabi muslims are the vile ones who oppress a.ll the other muslims of Pak. think about it.
> 
> you guys are different nations. only religion is same. like europe although same religion nations are different. i think baloch , sindh and kp should be going their own ways.. and it will happen soon, inshallah.
> 
> So are you calling PDF as **** site?



are you sure you want to go down this road?
I know Indian education system is not very good but even you must realize that if you argue that Pakistan has diferent nations then anyone can easily say the same about India.
In fact, India has so many different nations that Half of it is revolting and the government has little to no control over it. 
And what are they revolting for?
Indigenous rights as they feel New Delhi has taken their land and freedom away from them. 
Then we have the nations of the 6 sister states who have noting in common with the rest of India. 
How about Tamils? how much do they have in common with Gujaratis?


Before speaking out of your @$$, I suggest you look around you first. Most of India who is not from the North West corner is being opressed or at the very least, used by by New Delhi. 
So deal with your own problems first before making up crap about us. 


And by the way you Indian members post here, I honestly think you think this place is a **** site which you can use to pleasure yourself with. 

Case and point, your 139 posts in less then a month.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## chitti

Rusty said:


> are you sure you want to go down this road?
> I know Indian education system is not very good but even you must realize that if you argue that Pakistan has diferent nations then anyone can easily say the same about India.
> In fact, India has so many different nations that Half of it is revolting and the government has little to no control over it.
> And what are they revolting for?
> Indigenous rights as they feel New Delhi has taken their land and freedom away from them.
> Then we have the nations of the 6 sister states who have noting in common with the rest of India.
> How about Tamils? how much do they have in common with Gujaratis?
> 
> 
> Before speaking out of your @$$, I suggest you look around you first. Most of India who is not from the North West corner is being opressed or at the very least, used by by New Delhi.
> So deal with your own problems first before making up crap about us.
> 
> 
> And by the way you Indian members post here, I honestly think you think this place is a **** site which you can use to pleasure yourself with.
> 
> Case and point, your 139 posts in less then a month.


we are talking about pak here, when we decide to talk about india you can read my opinion on indias nation hood. but as things stand the sindhis and baluch and kp want freedom from punjab.

i dont know what **** is and i dont need to watch pron to get satisfied unlike you.


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> astrlogy is a science. if you give me you date of birth and time and place.. i can tell you your future .
> 
> 
> 
> thats why all kinds of muslims are fighting each other in pak, afg and all over the muslim world? you are a divided people. in fact you never united. sindh , baloch and kp are indeed different nations. pashtoons will definitely not recognize durand line



Oh pukhtoons do recognise durrand line, there are 40 million of them who are the iron curtain, the glorious the bravest people you should know that as they showed you how great they are for 800 years.

Durrand line is meaningless as Pakistan is afghania and afghania is Pakistan, we are two legs of a same body.

India will soon breakup you point out our problems but what about yours such as khalsa, maiost, nexalites and so on and so on.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chitti

hotaki said:


> Oh pukhtoons do recognise durrand line, there are 40 million of them who are the iron curtain, the glorious the bravest people you should know that as they showed you how great they are for 800 years.
> 
> Durrand line is meaningless as Pakistan is afghania and afghania is Pakistan, we are two legs of a same body.
> 
> India will soon breakup you point out our problems but what about yours such as khalsa, maiost, nexalites and so on and so on.



haha.. no way.. afghans hate pakistanis. pashtuns were great barbaric hordes who fought well in times when muscle had the strength. however when brainpower took over muscle power the pashtuns and all other muslims have been falling more and more behind. soon they will break up into different countries friendly to india.

I think india will eventually break and very maturely create a looser federation with common defence and economy but different state laws. not like the way you think.


----------



## notsuperstitious

So far the only criticism of Azad we have been offered is that he was a ''Hindu Slave'' followed by some skullnumbing sloganeering.

When so many people from a nation start defining their nation on the basis of hatred of another religious group, abuse a learned accomplished and successful man who did not follow their line of thinking and genuinely consider sloganeering as a kind of intellectual argument, then one knows the reality behind the glorification of the defenders of ilm ud din and the con behind those empty words of a pakistan where minorities will be equal citizens.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> haha.. no way.. afghans hate pakistanis. pashtuns were great barbaric hordes who fought well in times when muscle had the strength. however when brainpower took over muscle power the pashtuns and all other muslims have been falling more and more behind. soon they will break up into different countries friendly to india.
> 
> I think india will eventually break and very maturely create a looser federation with common defence and economy but different state laws. not like the way you think.



Afghans hate Indians more want me to tell you what we call you and what we do to you when push comes to shove, heck we even named a mountain Hindu kush as even the mountains don't like you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rusty

fateh71 said:


> So far the only criticism of Azad we have been offered is that he was a ''Hindu Slave'' followed by some skullnumbing sloganeering.
> 
> When so many people from a nation start defining their nation on the basis of hatred of another religious group, abuse a learned accomplished and successful man who did not follow their line of thinking and genuinely consider sloganeering as a kind of intellectual argument, then one knows the reality behind the glorification of the defenders of ilm ud din and the con behind those empty words of a pakistan where minorities will be equal citizens.



the exact same can be said for your country as well.
You guys even had a radical Hindu extremest murder your beloved Gandhi.


----------



## chitti

hotaki said:


> Afghans hate Indians more want me to tell you what we call you and what we do to you when push comes to shove, heck we even named a mountain Hindu kush as even the mountains don't like you.


mountains dont like or hate. its the barbarism of the people from western lands who came to kill hindus. nothing to be proud of about that, infact you should be ashamed of it.

Today afghans love indians and hate pakistanis.


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> haha.. no way.. afghans hate pakistanis. pashtuns were great barbaric hordes who fought well in times when muscle had the strength. however when brainpower took over muscle power the pashtuns and all other muslims have been falling more and more behind. soon they will break up into different countries friendly to india.
> 
> I think india will eventually break and very maturely create a looser federation with common defence and economy but different state laws. not like the way you
> think.



Well look at brain power of usa but its getting battered by muscle power, you say pakistanis are different nations but then again so is India, now tell me are people of punjab same as gujratis and tamils and so on?.


----------



## K-Xeroid

chitti said:


> mountains dont like or hate. its the barbarism of the people from western lands who came to kill hindus. nothing to be proud of about that, infact you should be ashamed of it.
> 
> Today afghans love indians and hate pakistanis.


just like hindus are killing innocent Kashmiri muslims, Its hindu inflrators who attracted muslim army towards them, your raja were greedy, Their greed of more land were the causes of their defeat. you should be ashamed of yourself, Everytime when Hindu soldiers tried to win Khurosan , They always had faced defeat there.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## chitti

hotaki said:


> Well look at brain power of usa but its getting battered by muscle power, you say pakistanis are different nations but then again so is India, now tell me are people of punjab same as gujratis and tamils and so on?.



if america had barbaric mind, they would have just nuked and put every pashtun to sword if they wanted. thats the difference between brain power and barbaric power.
people of india are very different but choose to live together. people in pak are also different but thy want to split.


----------



## Pakistanisage

Rig Vedic said:


> The irony is that Jinnah's grandfather was himself a Gujarati Hindu.
> 
> *Jinnah believed that by getting converted*, he now belonged to a different civilization in conflict with his pre-conversion civilization.




Jinnah did not convert, he was born into a Muslim Household. Jinnah's father was also born in a Muslim household. It was Jinnah's Grandfather who was born a Hindu but converted to Islam as a youth. 

Please get your facts straight and refrain from twisting well documented facts which can be easily verified. Like a wise man once said " You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts ".

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> mountains dont like or hate. its the barbarism of the people from western lands who came to kill hindus. nothing to be proud of about that, infact you should be ashamed of it.
> 
> Today afghans love indians and hate pakistanis.



I am very proud of our history, i can see you are ashamed of yours as all that you called great crumbled when it faced us.

Afghans hate Indians with passion and call them former slaves, i should know they are my people and i live amongst them, but you keep believing what you want when the time comes you will know the truth.

Start a war and see Afghans will stand shoulder to shoulder with Pakistan, after all you call pakistanis children of these barbarians.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chitti

Android K-Zero said:


> just like hindus are killing innocent Kashmiri muslims, Its hindu inflrators who attracted muslim army towards them, your raja were greedy, Their greed of more land were the causes of their defeat. you should be ashamed of yourself, Everytime when Hindu soldiers tried to win Khurosan , They always had faced defeat there.



kashmir was always hindu until islamic invasion happened. hindus are not killing innocent kashmiri muslims.
there are no hindus in kashmir valley. there are no killings in jammu.
the indian army only kills pakistani muslims who come to kill indians



hotaki said:


> I am very proud of our history, i can see you are ashamed of yours as all that you called great crumbled when it faced us.
> 
> Afghans hate Indians with passion and call them former slaves, i should know they are my people and i live amongst them, but you keep believing what you want when the time comes you will know the truth.
> 
> Start a war and see Afghans will stand shoulder to shoulder with Pakistan, after all you call pakistanis children of these barbarians.


i am also proud of indian history. afghans themselves were slaves of turkish arabs and genghiz khans barbaric hordes.
thats the difference between pashtun mind and hindu mind.. i never talked of strting a war and killing and fighting.. you did.

first try not to kill each other in the form of different forms of taliban and then come to talk.


----------



## K-Xeroid

chitti said:


> kashmir was always hindu until islamic invasion happened. hindus are not killing innocent kashmiri muslims.
> there are no hindus in kashmir valley. there are no killings in jammu.
> the indian army only kills pakistani muslims who come to kill indians


Thats what your media tought you, But the real picture is totally different, Wat do think ? How can any Pakistani cross the bordar line of Kashmir ? Its impossible .. Those all muslims were killed indian armies belongs to Jammu and Leh (IOK). but thats not the topic of this thread, So no more arguements with a troller like you..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chitti

Android K-Zero said:


> Thats what your media tought you, But the real picture is totally different, Wat do think ? How can any Pakistani cross the bordar line of Kashmir ? Its impossible .. Those all muslims were killed indian armies belongs to Jammu and Leh (IOK). but thats not the topic of this thread, So no more arguements with a troller like you..


paksitanis cross daily across the LOC. those muslims killed by indian army ( not hindus) were indeed mercenaries sent by Pak.


----------



## hotaki

chitti said:


> kashmir was always hindu until islamic invasion happened. hindus are not killing innocent kashmiri muslims.
> there are no hindus in kashmir valley. there are no killings in jammu.
> the indian army only kills pakistani muslims who come to kill indians
> 
> 
> i am also proud of indian history. afghans themselves were slaves of turkish arabs and genghiz khans barbaric hordes.
> thats the difference between pashtun mind and hindu mind.. i never talked of strting a war and killing and fighting.. you did.
> 
> first try not to kill each other in the form of different forms of taliban and then come to talk.



We are very happy about slavery, i take it you are not that's why you are here debating on Pakistani forum, people who have rejected you.

You do want to start the war but you can't because you know we will blow you to kingdom come and what ever our fate dekha Jaye ga.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manas

hotaki said:


> I am very proud of our history, i can see you are ashamed of yours as all that you called great crumbled when it faced us.
> 
> Afghans hate Indians with passion and call them former slaves, i should know they are my people and i live amongst them, but you keep believing what you want when the time comes you will know the truth.
> 
> Start a war and see Afghans will stand shoulder to shoulder with Pakistan, after all you call pakistanis children of these barbarians.



You think we don't know how lowly punjabi Pakistanis rate the Pathans and other Afghans as cavemen ,while the pathans think the Punjabis as the Dal Khor cowards ??

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## chitti

hotaki said:


> We are very happy about slavery, i take it you are not that's why you are here debating on Pakistani forum, people who have rejected you.
> 
> You do want to start the war but you can't because you know we will blow you to kingdom come and what ever our fate dekha Jaye ga.


glad to hear that like to be slaves. kabhi hamare bhi seva karo.

india doesnt want war, because we are progressing well and we are never a fighting race. we dont think like you. you say that you will blow a part of india but dont mind your entire race being elimianted.
We are more responsible. I dont want to kill you and seem my family killed in return. we believe that everyone should have a right to live well and be happy.


----------



## hotaki

Manas said:


> You think we don't know how lowly punjabi Pakistanis rate the Pathans and other Afghans as cavemen ,while the pathans think the Punjabis as the Dal Khor cowards ??



You keep believing that you know very well its not the truth but what can you expect from a man whose identity and history is based on lies.

If punjabis are dalkhors then i hate to think what you are but i realise its pointless debating with a man who believes in cow as a mother and rat as a father.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## chitti

hotaki said:


> You keep believing that you know very well its not the truth but what can you expect from a man whose identity and history is based on lies.
> 
> If punjabis are dalkhors then i hate to think what you are but i realise its pointless debating with a man who *believes in cow as a mother and rat as a father.*


difficult to debate with someone who cannot understand context and has meat in the head rather than brains


----------



## Vinod2070

chitti said:


> difficult to debate with someone who cannot understand context and has meat in the head rather than brains



Don't bother with him.

He is only doing what he is meant to. Nothing more, nothing less.



cloud_9 said:


> The Cripps Mission: A Reappraisal


 
Well, Mr. Jinnah had a mentor in Mr. Churchil.

Partition was a ploy of Churchil to extract vengeance on the Congress leaders and the league was just putty in his hands.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jbond197

The fact that - there is nothing left in Pakistan that Jinnah really wished for and Pakistan is in exact state that Maulana sahab envisioned does prove a thing or two about who's ideas were right and who's could not hold their grounds and with time proved to be complete failure.. 

It's all in open and we have seen TNT getting failed by seeing creation of BD and by seeing how Muslims are killing each other in the so called state of Muslims.. Jinnah wished well for its minorities but even that wish is blown away on a daily basis when the powerful mullahs in the society tries every cheap tactics in his jhola to not let them live a peaceful Hindu/Christian life.. 

So the point is - If Pakistan is not at all like what Jinnah envisioned then how exactly his ideas were right? Please explain..

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Vinod2070

^^ Mr. Jinnah had no idea of the forces he had unleashed. Let's just stop it at that.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jaunty

Huge respect to Maulana Azad. His each and every prediction has been proven true, some of them are still ongoing and probably will be true in the future. It is no secret that Pakistan has failed Jinnah's vision. To be honest I wasn't aware of these predictions of Maulana Azad before. Now I'm convinced that he was a great visionary if ever there was one. Satyameva Jayate, here's from one of Maulana Azad's descendants, enjoy

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## usman.ali

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> *The Man who knew the Future of Pakistan.
> *​by Shorish Kashmiri, Matbooat Chattan, Lahore
> 
> *Congress president Maulana Abul Kalam Azad gave the following interview to journalist Shorish Kashmiri for a Lahore based Urdu magazine, Chattan, in April 1946.* It was a time when the Cabinet Mission was holding its proceedings in Delhi and Simla. Azad made some startling predictions during the course of the interview, saying that religious conflict would tear apart Pakistan and its eastern half would carve out its own future. He even said that Pakistans incompetent rulers might pave the way for military rule. According to Shorish Kashmiri, Azad had earmarked the early hours of the morning for him and the interview was conducted over a period of two weeks. This interview has not been published in any book so far  neither in the Azad centenary volumes nor in any other book comprising his writing or speeches  except for Kashmiris own book Abul Kalam Azad, which was printed only once by Matbooat Chattan Lahore, a now-defunct publishing house. Former Union Cabinet Minister Arif Mohammed Khan discovered the book after searching for many years and translated the interview for COVERT
> 
> Q: The Hindu Muslim dispute has become so acute that it has foreclosed any possibility of reconciliation. Dont you think that in this situation the birth of Pakistan has become inevitable?
> 
> A: If Pakistan were the solution of Hindu Muslim problem, then I would have extended my support to it. A section of Hindu opinion is now turning in its favour. By conceding NWFP, Sind, Balochistan and half of Punjab on one side and half of Bengal on the other, they think they will get the rest of India  a huge country that would be free from any claims of communal nature. If we use the Muslim League terminology, this new India will be a Hindu state both practically and temperamentally. This will not happen as a result of any conscious decision, but will be a logical consequence of its social realities. How can you expect a society that consists 90% of Hindus, who have lived with their ethos and values since prehistoric times, to grow differently? The factors that laid the foundation of Islam in Indian society and created a powerful following have become victim of the politics of partition. The communal hatred it has generated has completely extinguished all possibilities of spreading and preaching Islam. This communal politics has hurt the religion beyond measure. Muslims have turned away from the Quran. If they had taken their lessons from the Quran and the life of the Holy Prophet and had not forged communal politics in the name of religion then Islams growth would not have halted. By the time of the decline of the Mughal rule, the Muslims in India were a little over 22.5 million, that is about 65% of the present numbers. Since then the numbers kept increasing. If the Muslim politicians had not used the offensive language that embittered communal relations, and the other section acting as agents of British interests had not worked to widen the Hindu-Muslim breach, the number of Muslims in India would have grown higher. The political disputes we created in the name of religion have projected Islam as an instrument of political power and not what it is  a value system meant for the transformation of human soul. Under British influence, we turned Islam into a confined system, and following in the footsteps of other communities like Jews, Parsis and Hindus we transformed ourselves into a hereditary community. The Indian Muslims have frozen Islam and its message and divided themselves into many sects. Some sects were clearly born at the instance of colonial power. Consequently, these sects became devoid of all movement and dynamism and lost faith in Islamic values. The hallmark of Muslim existence was striving and now the very term is strange to them. Surely they are Muslims, but they follow their own whims and desires. In fact now they easily submit to political power, not to Islamic values. They prefer the religion of politics not the religion of the Quran. Pakistan is a political standpoint. Regardless of the fact whether it is the right solution to the problems of Indian Muslims, it is being demanded in the name of Islam. The question is when and where Islam provided for division of territories to settle populations on the basis of belief and unbelief. Does this find any sanction in the Quran or the traditions of the Holy Prophet? Who among the scholars of Islam has divided the dominion of God on this basis? If we accept this division in principle, how shall we reconcile it with Islam as a universal system? How shall we explain the ever growing Muslim presence in non-Muslim lands including India? Do they realise that if Islam had approved this principle then it would not have permitted its followers to go to the non-Muslim lands and many ancestors of the supporters of Pakistan would not have had even entered the fold of Islam? Division of territories on the basis of religion is a contraption devised by Muslim League. They can pursue it as their political agenda, but it finds no sanction in Islam or Quran. What is the cherished goal of a devout Muslim? Spreading the light of Islam or dividing territories along religious lines to pursue political ambitions? The demand for Pakistan has not benefited Muslims in any manner. How Pakistan can benefit Islam is a moot question and will largely depend on the kind of leadership it gets. The impact of western thought and philosophy has made the crisis more serious. The way the leadership of Muslim League is conducting itself will ensure that Islam will become a rare commodity in Pakistan and Muslims in India. This is a surmise and God alone knows what is in the womb of future. Pakistan, when it comes into existence, will face conflicts of religious nature. As far as I can see, the people who will hold the reins of power will cause serious damage to Islam. Their behaviour may result in the total alienation of the Pakistani youth who may become a part of non-religious movements. Today, in Muslim minority states the Muslim youth are more attached to religion than in Muslim majority states. You will see that despite the increased role of Ulema, the religion will lose its sheen in Pakistan.
> 
> Q: But many Ulema are with Quaid-e-Azam [M.A. Jinnah].
> 
> A: Many Ulema were with Akbare Azam too; they invented a new religion for him. Do not discuss individuals. Our history is replete with the doings of the Ulema who have brought humiliation and disgrace to Islam in every age and period. The upholders of truth are exceptions. How many of the Ulema find an honourable mention in the Muslim history of the last 1,300 years? There was one Imam Hanbal, one Ibn Taimiyya. In India we remember no Ulema except Shah Waliullah and his family. The courage of Alf Sani is beyond doubt, but those who filled the royal office with complaints against him and got him imprisoned were also Ulema. Where are they now? Does anybody show any respect to them?
> 
> Q: Maulana, what is wrong if Pakistan becomes a reality? After all, Islam is being used to pursue and protect the unity of the community.
> 
> A: You are using the name of Islam for a cause that is not right by Islamic standards. Muslim history bears testimony to many such enormities. In the battle of Jamal [fought between Imam Ali and Hadrat Aisha, widow of the Holy Prophet] Qurans were displayed on lances. Was that right? In Karbala the family members of the Holy Prophet were martyred by those Muslims who claimed companionship of the Prophet. Was that right? Hajjaj was a Muslim general and he subjected the holy mosque at Makka to brutal attack. Was that right? No sacred words can justify or sanctify a false motive.
> 
> If Pakistan was right for Muslims then I would have supported it. But I see clearly the dangers inherent in the demand. I do not expect people to follow me, but it is not possible for me to go against the call of my conscience. People generally submit either to coercion or to the lessons of their experience. Muslims will not hear anything against Pakistan unless they experience it. Today they can call white black, but they will not give up Pakistan. The only way it can be stopped now is either for the government not to concede it or for Mr Jinnah himself  if he agrees to some new proposal.
> 
> Now as I gather from the attitude of my own colleagues in the working committee, the division of India appears to be certain. But I must warn that the evil consequences of partition will not affect India alone, Pakistan will be equally haunted by them. The partition will be based on the religion of the population and not based on any natural barrier like mountain, desert or river. A line will be drawn; it is difficult to say how durable it would be.
> 
> We must remember that an entity conceived in hatred will last only as long as that hatred lasts. This hatred will overwhelm the relations between India and Pakistan. In this situation it will not be possible for India and Pakistan to become friends and live amicably unless some catastrophic event takes place. The politics of partition itself will act as a barrier between the two countries. It will not be possible for Pakistan to accommodate all the Muslims of India, a task beyond her territorial capability. On the other hand, it will not be possible for the Hindus to stay especially in West Pakistan. They will be thrown out or leave on their own. This will have its repercussions in India and the Indian Muslims will have three options before them:
> 
> 1. They become victims of loot and brutalities and migrate to Pakistan; but how many Muslims can find shelter there?
> 
> 2. They become subject to murder and other excesses. A substantial number of Muslims will pass through this ordeal until the bitter memories of partition are forgotten and the generation that had lived through it completes its natural term.
> 
> 3. A good number of Muslims, haunted by poverty, political wilderness and regional depredation decide to renounce Islam.
> 
> The prominent Muslims who are supporters of Muslim League will leave for Pakistan. The wealthy Muslims will take over the industry and business and monopolise the economy of Pakistan. But more than 30 million Muslims will be left behind in India. What promise Pakistan holds for them? The situation that will arise after the expulsion of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan will be still more dangerous for them. Pakistan itself will be afflicted by many serious problems. The greatest danger will come from international powers who will seek to control the new country, and with the passage of time this control will become tight. India will have no problem with this outside interference as it will sense danger and hostility from Pakistan.
> 
> The other important point that has escaped Mr Jinnahs attention is Bengal. He does not know that Bengal disdains outside leadership and rejects it sooner or later. During World War II, Mr Fazlul Haq revolted against Jinnah and was thrown out of the Muslim League. Mr H.S. Suhrawardy does not hold Jinnah in high esteem. Why only Muslim League, look at the history of Congress. The revolt of Subhas Chandra Bose is known to all. Gandhiji was not happy with the presidentship of Bose and turned the tide against him by going on a fast unto death at Rajkot. Subhas Bose rose against Gandhiji and disassociated himself from the Congress. The environment of Bengal is such that it disfavours leadership from outside and rises in revolt when it senses danger to its rights and interests.
> 
> The confidence of East Pakistan will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaquat Ali are alive. But after them any small incident will create resentment and disaffection. I feel that it will not be possible for East Pakistan to stay with West Pakistan for any considerable period of time. There is nothing common between the two regions except that they call themselves Muslims. But the fact of being Muslim has never created durable political unity anywhere in the world. The Arab world is before us; they subscribe to a common religion, a common civilisation and culture and speak a common language. In fact they acknowledge even territorial unity. But there is no political unity among them. Their systems of government are different and they are often engaged in mutual recrimination and hostility. On the other hand, the language, customs and way of life of East Pakistan are totally different from West Pakistan. The moment the creative warmth of Pakistan cools down, the contradictions will emerge and will acquire assertive overtones. These will be fuelled by the clash of interests of international powers and consequently both wings will separate. After the separation of East Pakistan, whenever it happens, West Pakistan will become the battleground of regional contradictions and disputes. The assertion of sub-national identities of Punjab, Sind, Frontier and Balochistan will open the doors for outside interference. It will not be long before the international powers use the diverse elements of Pakistani political leadership to break the country on the lines of Balkan and Arab states. Maybe at that stage we will ask ourselves, what have we gained and what have we lost.
> 
> The real issue is economic development and progress, it certainly is not religion. Muslim business leaders have doubts about their own ability and competitive spirit. They are so used to official patronage and favours that they fear new freedom and liberty. They advocate the two-nation theory to conceal their fears and want to have a Muslim state where they have the monopoly to control the economy without any competition from competent rivals. It will be interesting to watch how long they can keep this deception alive.
> 
> I feel that right from its inception, Pakistan will face some very serious problems:
> 
> 1. The incompetent political leadership will pave the way for military dictatorship as it has happened in many Muslim countries.
> 
> 2. The heavy burden of foreign debt.
> 
> 3. Absence of friendly relationship with neighbours and the possibility of armed conflict.
> 
> 4. Internal unrest and regional conflicts.
> 
> 5. The loot of national wealth by the neo-rich and industrialists of Pakistan.
> 
> 6. The apprehension of class war as a result of exploitation by the neo-rich.
> 
> 7. The dissatisfaction and alienation of the youth from religion and the collapse of the theory of Pakistan.
> 
> 8. The conspiracies of the international powers to control Pakistan.
> 
> In this situation, the stability of Pakistan will be under strain and the Muslim countries will be in no position to provide any worthwhile help. The assistance from other sources will not come without strings and it will force both ideological and territorial compromises.
> 
> Q: But the question is how Muslims can keep their community identity intact and how they can inculcate the attributes of the citizens of a Muslim state.
> 
> A: Hollow words cannot falsify the basic realities nor slanted questions can make the answers deficient. It amounts to distortion of the discourse. What is meant by community identity? If this community identity has remained intact during the British slavery, how will it come under threat in a free India in whose affairs Muslims will be equal participants? What attributes of the Muslim state you wish to cultivate? The real issue is the freedom of faith and worship and who can put a cap on that freedom. Will independence reduce the 90 million Muslims into such a helpless state that they will feel constrained in enjoying their religious freedom? If the British, who as a world power could not snatch this liberty, what magic or power do the Hindus have to deny this freedom of religion? These questions have been raised by those, who, under the influence of western culture, have renounced their own heritage and are now raising dust through political gimmickry.
> 
> Muslim history is an important part of Indian history. Do you think the Muslim kings were serving the cause of Islam? They had a nominal relationship with Islam; they were not Islamic preachers. Muslims of India owe their gratitude to Sufis, and many of these divines were treated by the kings very cruelly. Most of the kings created a large band of Ulema who were an obstacle in the path of the propagation of Islamic ethos and values. Islam, in its pristine form, had a tremendous appeal and in the first century won the hearts and minds of a large number of people living in and around Hejaz. But the Islam that came to India was different, the carriers were non-Arabs and the real spirit was missing. Still, the imprint of the Muslim period is writ large on the culture, music, art, architecture and languages of India. What do the cultural centres of India, like Delhi and Lucknow, represent? The underlying Muslim spirit is all too obvious.
> 
> If the Muslims still feel under threat and believe that they will be reduced to slavery in free India then I can only pray for their faith and hearts. If a man becomes disenchanted with life he can be helped to revival, but if someone is timid and lacks courage, then it is not possible to help him become brave and gutsy. The Muslims as a community have become cowards. They have no fear of God, instead they fear men. This explains why they are so obsessed with threats to their existence  a figment of their imagination.
> 
> After British takeover, the government committed all possible excesses against the Muslims. But Muslims did not cease to exist. On the contrary, they registered a growth that was more than average. The Muslim cultural ethos and values have their own charm. Then India has large Muslim neighbours on three sides. Why on earth the majority in this country will be interested to wipe out the Muslims? How will it promote their self interests? Is it so easy to finish 90 million people? In fact, Muslim culture has such attraction that I shall not be surprised if it comes to have the largest following in free India.
> 
> The world needs both, a durable peace and a philosophy of life. If the Hindus can run after Marx and undertake scholarly studies of the philosophy and wisdom of the West, they do not disdain Islam and will be happy to benefit from its principles. In fact they are more familiar with Islam and acknowledge that Islam does not mean parochialism of a hereditary community or a despotic system of governance. Islam is a universal call to establish peace on the basis of human equality. They know that Islam is the proclamation of a Messenger who calls to the worship of God and not his own worship. Islam means freedom from all social and economic discriminations and reorganisation of society on three basic principles of God-consciousness, righteous action and knowledge. In fact, it is we Muslims and our extremist behaviour that has created an aversion among non-Muslims for Islam. If we had not allowed our selfish ambitions to soil the purity of Islam then many seekers of truth would have found comfort in the bosom of Islam. Pakistan has nothing to do with Islam; it is a political demand that is projected by Muslim League as the national goal of Indian Muslims. I feel it is not the solution to the problems Muslims are facing. In fact it is bound to create more problems.
> 
> The Holy Prophet has said, God has made the whole earth a mosque for me. Now do not ask me to support the idea of the partition of a mosque. If the nine-crore Muslims were thinly scattered all over India, and demand was made to reorganise the states in a manner to ensure their majority in one or two regions, that was understandable. Again such a demand would not have been right from an Islamic viewpoint, but justifiable on administrative grounds. But the situation, as it exists, is drastically different. All the border states of India have Muslim majorities sharing borders with Muslim countries. Tell me, who can eliminate these populations? By demanding Pakistan we are turning our eyes away from the history of the last 1,000 years and, if I may use the League terminology, throwing more than 30 million Muslims into the lap of Hindu Raj. The Hindu Muslim problem that has created political tension between Congress and League will become a source of dispute between the two states and with the aid of international powers this may erupt into full scale war anytime in future.
> 
> The question is often raised that if the idea of Pakistan is so fraught with dangers for the Muslims, why is it being opposed by the Hindus? I feel that the opposition to the demand is coming from two quarters. One is represented by those who genuinely feel concerned about imperial machinations and strongly believe that a free, united India will be in a better position to defend itself. On the other hand, there is a section who opposes Pakistan with the motive to provoke Muslims to become more determined in their demand and thus get rid of them. Muslims have every right to demand constitutional safeguards, but partition of India cannot promote their interests. The demand is the politically incorrect solution of a communal problem.
> 
> In future India will be faced with class problems, not communal disputes; the conflict will be between capital and labour. The communist and socialist movements are growing and it is not possible to ignore them. These movements will increasingly fight for the protection of the interest of the underclass. The Muslim capitalists and the feudal classes are apprehensive of this impending threat. Now they have given this whole issue a communal colour and have turned the economic issue into a religious dispute. But Muslims alone are not responsible for it. This strategy was first adopted by the British government and then endorsed by the political minds of Aligarh. Later, Hindu short-sightedness made matters worse and now freedom has become contingent on the partition of India.
> 
> Jinnah himself was an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. In one Congress session Sarojini Naidu had commended him with this title. He was a disciple of Dadabhai Naoroji. He had refused to join the 1906 deputation of Muslims that initiated communal politics in India. In 1919 he stood firmly as a nationalist and opposed Muslim demands before the Joint Select Committee. On 3 October 1925, in a letter to the Times of India he rubbished the suggestion that Congress is a Hindu outfit. In the All Parties Conferences of 1925 and 1928, he strongly favoured a joint electorate. While speaking at the National Assembly in 1925, he said, I am a nationalist first and a nationalist last and exhorted his colleagues, be they Hindus or Muslims, not to raise communal issues in the House and help make the Assembly a national institution in the truest sense of the term.
> 
> In 1928, Jinnah supported the Congress call to boycott Simon Commission. Till 1937, he did not favour the demand to partition India. In his message to various student bodies he stressed the need to work for Hindu Muslim unity. But he felt aggrieved when the Congress formed governments in seven states and ignored the Muslim League. In 1940 he decided to pursue the partition demand to check Muslim political decline. In short, the demand for Pakistan is his response to his own political experiences. Mr Jinnah has every right to his opinion about me, but I have no doubts about his intelligence. As a politician he has worked overtime to fortify Muslim communalism and the demand for Pakistan. Now it has become a matter of prestige for him and he will not give it up at any cost.
> 
> Q: It is clear that Muslims are not going to turn away from their demand for Pakistan. Why have they become so impervious to all reason and logic of arguments?
> 
> A: It is difficult, rather impossible, to fight against the misplaced enthusiasm of a mob, but to suppress ones conscience is worse than death. Today the Muslims are not walking, they are flowing. The problem is that Muslims have not learnt to walk steady; they either run or flow with the tide. When a group of people lose confidence and self-respect, they are surrounded by imaginary doubts and dangers and fail to make a distinction between the right and the wrong. The true meaning of life is realised not through numerical strength but through firm faith and righteous action. British politics has sown many seeds of fear and distrust in the mental field of Muslims. Now they are in a frightful state, bemoaning the departure of the British and demanding partition before the foreign masters leave. Do they believe that partition will avert all the dangers to their lives and bodies? If these dangers are real then they will still haunt their borders and any armed conflict will result in much greater loss of lives and possessions.
> 
> Q: But Hindus and Muslims are two different nations with different and disparate inclinations. How can the unity between the two be achieved?
> 
> A: This is an obsolete debate. I have seen the correspondence between Allama Iqbal and Maulana Husain Ahmad Madni on the subject. In the Quran the term qaum has been used not only for the community of believers but has also been used for distinct human groupings generally. What do we wish to achieve by raising this debate about the etymological scope of terms like millat [community], qaum [nation] and ummat [group]? In religious terms India is home to many people  the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs etc. The differences between Hindu religion and Islam are vast in scope. But these differences cannot be allowed to become an obstacle in the path of India gaining her freedom nor do the two distinct and different systems of faith negate the idea of unity of India. The issue is of our national independence and how we can secure it. Freedom is a blessing and is the right of every human being. It cannot be divided on the basis of religion.
> 
> Muslims must realise that they are bearers of a universal message. They are not a racial or regional grouping in whose territory others cannot enter. Strictly speaking, Muslims in India are not one community; they are divided among many well-entrenched sects. You can unite them by arousing their anti-Hindu sentiment but you cannot unite them in the name of Islam. To them Islam means undiluted loyalty to their own sect. Apart from Wahabi, Sunni and Shia there are innumerable groups who owe allegiance to different saints and divines. Small issues like raising hands during the prayer and saying Amen loudly have created disputes that defy solution. The Ulema have used the instrument of takfeer [fatwas declaring someone as infidel] liberally. Earlier, they used to take Islam to the disbelievers; now they take away Islam from the believers. Islamic history is full of instances of how good and pious Muslims were branded kafirs. Prophets alone had the capability to cope with these mindboggling situations. Even they had to pass through times of afflictions and trials. The fact is that when reason and intelligence are abandoned and attitudes become fossilised then the job of the reformer becomes very difficult.
> 
> But today the situation is worse than ever. Muslims have become firm in their communalism; they prefer politics to religion and follow their worldly ambitions as commands of religion. History bears testimony to the fact that in every age we ridiculed those who pursued the good with consistency, snuffed out the brilliant examples of sacrifice and tore the flags of selfless service. Who are we, the ordinary mortals; even high ranking Prophets were not spared by these custodians of traditions and customs.
> 
> Q: You closed down your journal Al-Hilal a long time back. Was it due to your disappointment with the Muslims who were wallowing in intellectual desolation, or did you feel like proclaiming azan [call to prayer] in a barren desert?
> 
> A: I abandoned Al-Hilal not because I had lost faith in its truth. This journal created great awareness among a large section of Muslims. They renewed their faith in Islam, in human freedom and in consistent pursuit of righteous goals. In fact my own life was greatly enriched by this experience and I felt like those who had the privilege of learning under the companionship of the Messenger of God. My own voice entranced me and under its impact I burnt out like a phoenix. Al-Hilal had served its purpose and a new age was dawning. Based on my experiences, I made a reappraisal of the situation and decided to devote all my time and energy for the attainment of our national freedom. I was firm in my belief that freedom of Asia and Africa largely depends on Indias freedom and Hindu Muslim unity is key to Indias freedom. Even before the First World War, I had realised that India was destined to attain freedom, and no power on earth would be able to deny it. I was also clear in my mind about the role of Muslims. I ardently wished that Muslims would learn to walk together with their countrymen and not give an opportunity to history to say that when Indians were fighting for their independence, Muslims were looking on as spectators. Let nobody say that instead of fighting the waves they were standing on the banks and showing mirth on the drowning of boats carrying the freedom fighters
> 
> Maulana Abul Kalam Azad: The Man Who Knew The Future Of Pakistan Before Its Creation « Koolblue's Blog
> What a great man.He knew that the 2 nation theory was a recipe for disaster.




--

T*he Man Who Forged An Interview: Shorish Kashmiri's Maulana Azad Hoax
*


By Yasser Latif Hamdani

Some people believe that if you repeat a lie enough times it becomes the truth. Making the rounds on the internet these days is a suddenly discovered interview of Maulana Azad which he allegedly gave to Agha Shorish Kashmiri of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam in April 1946.

Well I hate to break it to all of you  Agha Shorish Kashmiri was a fraud and the interview itself was most probably cobbled together through excerpts from Azads book India Wins Freedom and his famous address to the Muslims left behind in India in Jamia Masjid- both easily available texts. Before I come to the actual nature of the forgery, let us re-cap for a second what this creature Majlis-e-Ahrar was and just how deep its motivation ran in discrediting Pakistan and the leadership of Mr. Jinnah who Majlis-e-Ahrar considered an outright Kafir. Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam, a group of Islamic fanatics closely allied to the Congress party, was one of the most rabid anti-Pakistan movements around.

Their leaders Maulana Mazhar Ali Azhar and Maulana Ataullah Shah Bukhari were foul mouthed bigots who resorted to choicest abuses from the pulpit against the Muslim League and Mr. Jinnah. The elections of 1946 resulted in their complete rout and after Pakistan was created, this group was in the forefront of the conspiracies against the state. Agha Shorish Kashmiri was one such Ahrari remnant who was in the forefront of anti-Ahmaddiya rioting in Pakistan and whose hatred for Pakistan was boundless. The internal struggle in Islam has always pitted liberal Muslim leadership against the clergy especially in the subcontinent. The difference in the closing days of the Raj was that through a freak chance, liberal and secular Muslim leadership in form of Jinnah was isolated from the Hindu leadership i.e. Gandhi and Nehru led Congress which in turn used the fanatical Muslims making common cause with them against British raj.

Maulana Azad was the blue-eyed boy of the Ulema who opposed the Muslim League. Azad was a religious scholar of renown, a salafi who followed Ibn-e-Taimiyya. He commanded respect amongst the Ahraris and he was admired by the nationalists. That Azad was a smart politician is evidenced from his support for the Cabinet Mission Plan, where he alone in the Congress was ready to work it to its logical conclusion. He was also an intelligent man who did predict the separation of Pakistans Eastern Wing in his book India Wins Freedom as dictated to Humayun Kabir in 1957. He did not however make the predictions that are being attributed to him in the so called interview.

Now let us see the obvious gaping holes in this so called interview:

1. First of all the interview finds no mention in any of the official works on Azad. It is only found in Agha Shorish Kashmiris book on Abul Kalam Azad which was financed and published by Kashmiri himself.

2. Azad says H S Suhrawardy does not hold Jinnah in esteem. Jinnahs relationship with Suhrawardy soured in late 1947 but in April 1946 there were no such signs. Till 1947, Suhrawardy was tipped to be Pakistans firs t Prime Minister. Infact in his book India Wins Freedom Azad hints that Jinnah sidelined Nazimuddin because Nazimuddin was not the loyalist others (presumably Suhrawardy) were.

3. Azad is quoted as saying that East Pakistans confidence will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaqat Ali Khan are alive. This is a rather odd statement on three counts. One in April 1946 no one used the term East Pakistan, secondly Liaqat Ali Khan just did not enjoy the kind of importance that is being attached to him and third that while Jinnah was ageing and was expected to die sooner or later, Liaqat Ali Khan was relatively young, and certainly younger than Azad. This sounds eerily similar to something our established Pakistan Studies books would say about Quaid-e-Azam and Quaid-e-Millat.

4. Azad is shown to speak about the assertion of the subnational identities of Punjab, Sindh, Frontier and  please note- Balochistan. There was no Balochistan issue till the annexation of Kalat. Balochistan did not exist as a proper province, let alone register as a possible hotbed in April 1946. All of Baloch grievances revolve around the purported events of March 1948 and the annexation in 1956. There is no way Azad could have spoken about Balochistan in April 1946.

5. Then Azad is quoted as saying incompetent leadership will pave way for military dictatorship as has happened in many Muslim countries. Till April 1946, there were no known coups in Muslim countries. Perhaps Azad was referring to Turkey but then Turkey was not a military dictatorship as Ataturk had retired from the military and was the elected  though autocratic  president of Turkey. His prime ministers, Ismet Inonu and Celal Bayer, had followed suit.

6. Azad then looks into his crystal ball and speaks of heavy burden of foreign debt. Foreign debt was an unknown and unlikely creature in Pakistan till the 1960s when Pakistan financed the building of a new capital. In April 1946, there were no apprehensions of foreign debt. Pakistan no doubt asked for military aid from the US soon after independence but that was hardly debt. Unless ofcourse Azad knew that the Congress planned on withholding Pakistans share of the treasury- another unlikely proposition since in April 1946 it wasnt even clear that there would be a partition (except maybe in the note sent from V P Menon to George Abell on January 23rd 1946 which demarcated Pakistan exactly and precisely).

7. Azad is lavish in his praise of Jinnah as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity, something he misses out completely in his book India Wins Freedom. Other than this purported interview Azad has never acknowledged Jinnahs contributions to the Congress. It was just not Azads style. The description itself seems to follow the passages on Jinnah by Dr. B R Ambedkars Pakistan or Partition of India. Granted that this book was in circulation at the time but my bet will be that it was Kashmiri and not Azad who read it.

8. Azad then goes on to say In the battle of Jamal, Qurans were displayed on the lances. How strange and ironic that a learned Islamic scholar and authority would make such a major error? It was Jang-e-Sifin  between Muawiyah and Ali- where the Qurans were displayed on the lances. I for one cannot believe that Maulana Azad would say something like that given that this was his bread and butter. Had this been suggested about Jinnah or even Nehru or Iqbal it would have been believable but certainly not Azad.

My objective in posting this is to counter the lie and propaganda that Ahrari crook Agha Shorish Kashmiri is carrying out posthumously with the help of those who want to see Pakistan disintegrated. That this was translated by an Indian MP and published in a magazine that calls itself Covert only adds to the mystique of it, since the timing couldnt be better. But as they say in Punjabi/Saraiki Naqal kan aqal chaidee. The planners and executors of this third rate attempt at forging this interview and enhancing Maulana Azads credentials as Indias Nostradamus have done the ex-Congress president a disservice.

On our part it is time we stopped being impressed with such trickery.


The Man Who Forged An Interview: Shorish Kashmiri's Maulana Azad Hoax | Pak Tea House

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Farah Sohail

Guest01 said:


> LoL, Jinnah, a daaru drinking second generation Gujrati Muslim gets compared with my Maulana!!!!!
> 
> By the way, my guess is that the Karachi Muslims or and the Sindhi Muslims and the Awaami (NWFP) Muslims will have a different view than Punjabi Muslims on the matter of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.



*Dont u DARE* insult Jinnah....We will NOT tolerate any such thing...I may remind you, tht this is Pakistani Defence forum, and if u cant talk in a decent manner, get OUT of here...

What do u mean by Karachi Muslim, or Sindhi Muslim or Pathan Muslim?... we all are patriotic Pakistanis Alhamdolillah, and NONE of us, will tolerate insult of Jinnah...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jbond197

@Guest001
Mate, Jinnah was a great man!! Even though we do not agree to his view point but lets not insult him.. Please edit your post..



Farah Sohail said:


> *Dont u DARE* insult Jinnah.....



Sorry buddy, If you can please ignore that post..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## newdelhinsa

Bang Galore said:


> Now that we have all had our fun I must point out that the very basic contention of the thread is held up on false pretences because it is extremely unlikely that these two telegrams are in any way related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Azad's telegram is dated *12th July 1940.* Jinnah's supposed reply is dated *19th February 1941*. I don't believe Mr.Jinnah's 's staunch followers believe that he was so slow a reader that he took over *7 months* to reply. Maulana Azad's telegram refers to Mr.Jinnah's statement of July(the very same month Azad wrote the letter) whereas we have to believe that Jinnah would reply to an urgent telegram some 7 months later. As I said, very unlikely!



Bureaucratic delay to get dictation from Buckingham Palace might be the reason ? Hang on Battle of Britain started on 10 July 1940 its highly likely Churchill was busy till winters.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

LURKER said:


> UP as a whole is a backward state so its not just muslims who are backward.
> as for your 'lucknow is a really shityy place' have you *ever been to lucknow or your uncle phoned you and told you.*
> I dont know what high standards pakistan has set for its cities but i find lucknow a perfectly fine Tier 2 city with decent roads,no power cuts,24 hr water supply,no slums,no sectarian violence(yes there are large no. of shias and sunnis), no bomb blasts,no gun violence etc etc.
> lucknow has a large muslim population. some of the most prominent and richest businessmen are muslims. my dad's previous boss was a muslim(GM of UP)he works in a govt dept.
> visit the place some some time and see the ground reality.



Been to Lucknow.. Dehli..and Agra.. 
Loved Dehli.. Agra has too many tourist hawkers.
Still found the place backward.. 
Compare that to Mumbai.. now that is a place.. and great people.



Vinod2070 said:


> You really believe that!
> 
> By that logic Pakistan's population should have become several times that of India by now!
> 
> Just think over it. Do some simple arithmetic and you will realize the absurdity of this comment.
> 
> 
> 
> *If you are not secular, you have no right to make demands on secular countries as well.
> 
> Should be simple to understand.*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Pakistani forces killing Pakistani Hindus and somehow India is responsible.
> 
> All the major leaders of AL were Muslims I guess.
> 
> But I am not surprised by your answer. It is typical and expected.
> 
> 
> 
> Once the two nation theory was implemented and Pakistan was created and all that happened, happened, you still think you can make demands on us?
> 
> Yes, no Pakistani speaks for any Indian. Your assumption that you are entitled to that is superfluous.



If it is all typical and expected.. and by the last line..
Then you have no right to discuss Pakistan as well.
No Indian may speak on any pakistani as well then.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SQ8

Vinod2070 said:


> Why do you care what we call ourselves?
> 
> Partition and two nation theory meant a complete break. An irreversible separation.
> 
> You decided to move on, find a new life.
> 
> And in the best traditions of a Sha Rukh movie, we say: "Jee le apni jindagi".
> 
> Just leave us alone. We are not doing anything to impress you.
> 
> 
> 
> *You always assume that we are comparable. We are not!*
> 
> We have chosen secularism because that is what the Hindu majority of the country wants. Not to impress you! You have nothing to do with that decision at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Much of the problems related to Muslim backwardness is no different from that of other communities.
> 
> The Muslims have made tremendous progress from the very low base at partition when most educated Muslims left for Pakistan.
> 
> Now they have better indicators than Pakistani Muslims and are improving. Some still fall victims to the extremist elements like Bukhari (OBL supporter) and have regressive social values (no woman to work fatwa by Deoband etc.).
> 
> As our politics is vote bank based, these pathetic extremist and regressive Muslim leaders are courted and keep the community backward.
> 
> But we absolutely reject your claim to represent them to us!
> 
> They are our people and nothing to do with you. You take care of Pakistanis of all religions and we take care of Indians of all religions.
> 
> *If you really want to help Indian Muslims, there is one thing you can do.
> 
> Stop the "non state actors".*



Then why bring us up in these topics in the first place?
It was about two personalities.. 
Then the discussion went to India.. until an Indian dragged in Pakistan.
We are not comparable.. 
can never be comparable.. two different phenomena at work.
As to why as Pakistanis we may voice our concerns.. we have every right to has your countrymen do.
When every Veer,Dinesh and hari singh can come out here and shovel **** at my country day in and day out..hurling abuses at us, ridiculing us.. laughing at our deaths..and apart from a sane few of you..find every other unrelated issue to let us down. Then we deserve enough right to discuss the other side of the fence.. and ask all sorts of questions as we wish.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Omar1984

jaunty said:


> Huge respect to Maulana Azad. His each and every prediction has been proven true, some of them are still ongoing and probably will be true in the future. It is no secret that Pakistan has failed Jinnah's vision. To be honest I wasn't aware of these predictions of Maulana Azad before. Now I'm convinced that he was a great visionary if ever there was one.



Real Muslims know that only Allah can predict the future, not regular human beings like "azad".

Pakistanis are more than happy that partition happened. Now move on and leave us alone. Focus on your indian muslims who are far worse than dalits. And I'm not talking about a few pathan bollywood actors that you indians always bring up

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DEV444

@Donatello :They couldn't do shyt when *Pakistan gave part of it's Kashmir to China *right under India's nose.

Sir,

Thanks for the above confession which really shows the real truth of Pakistan's hollow & hypocritical love for Kashmir.


----------



## jbond197

Oscar said:


> Been to Lucknow.. Dehli..and Agra..
> Loved Dehli.. Agra has too many tourist hawkers.
> *Still found the place backward.. *
> Compare that to Mumbai.. now that is a place.. and great people.



Clearly Off-topic but, can you tell me how exactly you found LKO backward, buddy? I & my family don't live there but have visited the place numerous times and if you ask me I can never call it backward. The roads in LKO infact are even better than Delhi at many places.. The city got beautiful Gardens, Sahara shahar (city) and old monuments.. Hazrat ganj actually gives me glimpses of Canaught place (CP, Delhi). and most of the residential areas there are well planned and look nice too.. Now if you have been to the oldest of the oldest part of LKO then I can not comment but then each city has its share of good and bad and so does LKO.. Not saying LKO is one of most advanced city but it certainly can not be called backward by any means..

The biggest issue i see in the city is the way people drive there.. Even the traffic police waala can not stop anyone jumping the lights and they honk like crazies.. But I like that madness too..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PeacefulIndian

Actually, there is nothing 'Epic, just Epic' about the response. The response is filled with arrogance, utter lack of knowledge, blanket statements, utter disrespect for other religions and ultimately shows a complete lack of intellectual. 

#1. You have completely forfeited the confidence of Muslim India - How so? By advocating unity? Who are you to say that? Millions and millions of Muslims chose to stay with India after partition - until recent times India had more Muslims than Pakistan. Did Azad forfeit their confidence? Simply speaking there was no Muslim India, there isn't one today. There were Muslims who wanted separate nation, there were Muslims (more in number) who didn't. 
Statement number one that is blanket, arrogant and disgraceful. 

#2. You represent neither Hindus nor Muslims - Actually he represented almost all the Hindus, and far more Muslims than you did, Sir. Again, blanket statements do not do any good to your image and reflects very poorly on your intellect. 

#3. The congress is a Hindu body - Huh? 

#4. You know you have hopelessly failed. Give it up - When was the last time a head of a state was seen using such childish and arrogant verbiage? May be Kim Jong II or someone else of his caliber? No wonder the state he created is where it is today. 

Till today I was under the impression that no matter what, he was at least an intellectual who fought for what he believed. Well, I stand corrected. 

On second thought, EPIC, it is.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lem34

Oscar said:


> Then why bring us up in these topics in the first place?
> It was about two personalities..
> Then the discussion went to India.. until an Indian dragged in Pakistan.
> We are not comparable..
> can never be comparable.. two different phenomena at work.
> As to why as Pakistanis we may voice our concerns.. we have every right to has your countrymen do.
> When every Veer,Dinesh and hari singh can come out here and shovel **** at my country day in and day out..hurling abuses at us, ridiculing us.. laughing at our deaths..and apart from a sane few of you..find every other unrelated issue to let us down. Then we deserve enough right to discuss the other side of the fence.. and ask all sorts of questions as we wish.



Oscar please can I give them some statistics that would have changed Mr Azad's mind had he known them please??? Statistics from Indian and international agencies? Statistics that will vindicate the Quaid's position please now


----------



## DEV444

Aeronaut said:


> Jinnah was enlightened - Azad was under a delusion - Jinnah is hero & azad was a perverted man who believed in the idea of Hindu Muslim Unity.


All Indians should be eternally thankful to Jinnah because his great historical blunder ensured that India and not Pakistan got Kashmir and this is how:

1. The Maharaja of Jammu & Kashmir was strongly averse to acceding to the Indian Union because Nehru had strongly put his weight behind ( his then great pal) Sheikh Abdullah in the Sheikh's mass movement against the Maharaja's rule.

2. But Jinnah in his great impatience to add Kashmir to the Pakistani Union, committed a monumental blunder in resorting to muscle power by sending the assorted Kabilis & soldiers to invade Kashmir, thereby forcing the reluctant Maharaja to India's lap, after which the game was up for Pakistan in Kashmir and only Nehru's matching monumental blunder in heeding to Lord Mountbatten's advice for ceasefire stopped the Indian Army from evicting the invaders totally from Kashmir, so that Pakistan was left with a part of Kashmir.

3. But for Jinnah's blunder, Kashmir would either have remained independent princely state or acceded to Pakistan and no way have acceded to the Indian Union.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Then why bring us up in these topics in the first place?
> It was about two personalities..
> Then the discussion went to India.. until an Indian dragged in Pakistan.
> We are not comparable..
> can never be comparable.. two different phenomena at work.
> As to why as Pakistanis we may voice our concerns.. we have every right to has your countrymen do.
> When every Veer,Dinesh and hari singh can come out here and shovel **** at my country day in and day out..hurling abuses at us, ridiculing us.. laughing at our deaths..and apart from a sane few of you..find every other unrelated issue to let us down. Then we deserve enough right to discuss the other side of the fence.. and ask all sorts of questions as we wish.


 
Just ban them.

PDF has become choked with new members who are here just to start flame wars. I don't even post anymore. Any thread i open up, is India vs Pakistan BS. Seriously, ban them!!!


----------



## lem34

Donatello said:


> Just ban them.
> 
> PDF has become choked with new members who are here just to start flame wars. I don't even post anymore. Any thread i open up, is India vs Pakistan BS. Seriously, ban them!!!



I ask Oscar by pm if I could give valid statistics from Indian govt and UN agencies which stand as irrefutable evidence that the Quaid was right and Mr Azad was wrong. But they show India in a bad light and I know it will upset Indians. Then thread will finish.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Subramanian

hotaki said:


> He taught you a lesson like his predecessors that you guys are just all talk, stopped you in your tracks and gave you a reality check, he was no bandit anyone that beats you guys is a barbarian or a bandit.


 
Except that his land now is a minefield and the one he tried to s rew is not,u t trying to defend Abadali?

My god.



bilalhaider said:


> One must remember that 64 years since Pakistan & India's independence, Pakistan has been doing better than India in 45+ years in all socioeconomic, development indicators. Even today, despite being in the forefront on the WOT, Pakistan is doing better than India in many socioeconomic indicators. Where Pakistan is today is not because of what Jinnah envisaged for Pakistan, but because Pakistan did completely opposite of that.


 
As usual Bilal,

u have hardly a clue about India which you display more often than not, it is more difficult to run a elelpahnt than a Horse. 

Aukaat samajhle apne.



Omar1984 said:


> Give the same advice to your fellow indians who are obsessed about Pakistan.
> 
> We Pakistanis have nothing to do with india or indians or indian "muslims"
> 
> So just move on and leave us alone.


 
oye hero Omar

agar yeh baat samajh aa gayi toh, tu aisa nahi kehta.



superkaif said:


> We have moved on Vinod - we are on PDF debating. The infatuation and fascination is with respect the other way round. This thread is the ultimate example of the "Indian obsession".
> Reading the posts earlier on the span of Indian logic is truly widespread - even finding it necessary to bring in 1971.
> We have certainly moved on and trust me judging be some Indian posts - its obvious the in depth obsession they have is stronger than ever with our nation.


 
who has a problem with Kashmir?

Who has a thing about China/USA?

Btw,till Afghanistan ll always be our land nd we ll take it,

see ya later.


----------



## MilSpec

I beg to differ from most of Indian members here on two nation theory... Concept of partition was a success,if exodus would have been peaceful it would have been wonderfull.... if border issues were solved outright in 1947, amicable relations would have helped the prosperity of all the parties.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bang Galore

usman.ali said:


> --
> 
> T*he Man Who Forged An Interview: Shorish Kashmiri's Maulana Azad Hoax
> *
> 
> 
> By Yasser Latif Hamdani
> 
> Some people believe that if you repeat a lie enough times it becomes the truth. Making the rounds on the internet these days is a suddenly discovered interview of Maulana Azad which he allegedly gave to Agha Shorish Kashmiri of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam in April 1946.




No evidence to back this claim. Just the author's opinion that the interview is a fake.The original interview was found & translated by *Arif Mohammed Khan*, a man of unimpeachable integrity & a former member of the Indian parliament. A man who commands respect simply because he willingly put up his political career on the line (& paid a very heavy price) for his convictions by taking a anti-fundamentalist muslim line on the Shah Bano case.

In any case, the only ones arguing that this is a fake are those who have never read Azad's *"India wins freedom".* Pretty much all these prophesies are found there. Nothing fake about that. Azad died in 1958 & the book was written earlier. Matches roughly the timeline of this interview . The interview will be considered genuine unless evidence is produced to the contrary & there isn't any. As for the one battle that is wrongly mentioned, it might well be the mistake of the interviewer who was after all writing it down to be published.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Karachiite

Oscar said:


> far from it..
> While Azad was aware of issues that would plague a separate Muslim nation , he put too much faith in communal harmony and the elixir of being a majority.
> He may have been an Indian Patriot.. but he was far from being a beneficiary to Islam as a whole.



But if you actually look at his points for opposing the partition then it makes sense. He knew that once the subcontinent is divided then Muslims would be divided as well and look at it now, Muslims in South Asia are divided into 3 nationalities and have been turned against each other. Also I agree on why he tried to stop Indian Muslims from moving to Pakistan in 1947.

I'm not opposing Quaid e Azam because I know his concerns were valid and partition for him was the last option.


----------



## Vinod2070

Oscar said:


> If it is all typical and expected.. and by the last line..
> Then you have no right to discuss Pakistan as well.
> No Indian may speak on any pakistani as well then.


 
There is a difference.

I don't care whether you call yourself Islamic or XYZ and why you do that. Your country, your choice.

I don't care for the % of Pushtuns in some university of Lahore or Karachi.

I don't care if Sindhis are proportionately represented in the Pakistani armed forces.

They are your internal matters and don't concern me.

I want to have peaceful relations between the two countries but also keep an arm's length distance as any two independent and sovereign countries should.

We don't share common values now, may be just some common interests and that is what I am interested in.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

Oscar said:


> Then why bring us up in these topics in the first place?
> It was about two personalities..
> Then the discussion went to India.. until an Indian dragged in Pakistan.
> We are not comparable..
> can never be comparable.. two different phenomena at work.
> As to why as Pakistanis we may voice our concerns.. we have every right to has your countrymen do.
> When every Veer,Dinesh and hari singh can come out here and shovel **** at my country day in and day out..hurling abuses at us, ridiculing us.. laughing at our deaths..and apart from a sane few of you..find every other unrelated issue to let us down. Then we deserve enough right to discuss the other side of the fence.. and ask all sorts of questions as we wish.


 
Any topic is OK to discuss. Even this was started by a Pakistani.

Let's not get self righteous about "celebrating death". Many of us remember the decades long campaign of terror coming from your side.

And the daily celebration of our soldiers getting "halaq" while some of the terrorists in Kashmir gained "shahadat".

You can discuss India. I don't think you (not as an individual but as a Pakistani) have the right to represent any Indians to other Indians irrespective of religion or community.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LaBong

What is the source of these telegrams? It seems to be be hoax.


----------



## LaBong

Okay I found the sources, no offence that was rather rude. Azad did the right thing by not replying.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Infinity

Alchemy said:


> Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad is not a fair "versus" comparison at all .... both men were great in their own way , had some common ideologies/goals and some conflicting ideologies/goals ... both stood for peaceful fight to drive out British , but difference being Jinnah wanted separate state for Muslims and Azad wanted people of all religion to stay together as one !


And I think Azad was right and India has proved he was right.....................


----------



## vsdoc

Infinity said:


> And I think Azad was right and India has proved he was right.....................



And so has Pakistan.

And Bangladesh.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Foresight on the other hand changes the course of nations.

In the end its the vindication that counts. And history will record it as such.

Because as we have seen across time, like in any conflict, history is written by the victors.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cloud_9

Donatello said:


> Just ban them.
> 
> PDF has become choked with new members who are here just to start flame wars. I don't even post anymore. Any thread i open up, is India vs Pakistan BS. Seriously, ban them!!!


This mud slinging was started by a Senior Member.Well Jinnah has a special place in the hearts of Pakistani's so is the case with Maulana Azad among Indians.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## vsdoc

cloud_9 said:


> This mud slinging was started by a Senior Member.Well Jinnah has a special place in the hearts of Pakistani's so is the case with Maulana Azad among Indians.



Of course Jinnah will have a special place in the hearts of Pakistanis man. 

What he actually did in the name of secularism was consolidate formally the territorial inroads made by Islam into the land of the Hindus, so that there was something to show for a millenium of effort.

Before it was irrevocably lost.

Something to show the rest of the so called Muslim world, to prove that sub-continental Islam had not failed completely in their march towards Islamization of what they have always seen as the final frontier.

The final unconquered frontier that did not bend but absorbed and swallowed instead.

That was the dominant emotion behind the creation of Pakistan.

Secularism was as much a sham then as it is today.

No one buys it today. No one bought it then.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Tamizhan

vsdoc said:


> Of course Jinnah will have a special place in the hearts of Pakistanis man.
> 
> What he actually did in the name of secularism was consolidate formally the territorial inroads made by Islam into the land of the Hindus, so that there was something to show for a millenium of effort.
> 
> Before it was irrevocably lost.
> 
> Something to show the rest of the so called Muslim world, to prove that sub-continental Islam had not failed completely in their march towards Islamization of what they have always seen as the final frontier.
> 
> The final unconquered frontier that did not bend but absorbed and swallowed instead.
> 
> That was the dominant emotion behind the creation of Pakistan.
> 
> Secularism was as much a sham then as it is today.
> 
> No one buys it today. No one bought it then.



The best post of the thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Porus

vsdoc said:


> Of course Jinnah will have a special place in the hearts of Pakistanis man.
> 
> What he actually did in the name of secularism was consolidate formally the territorial inroads made by Islam into the land of the Hindus, so that there was something to show for a millenium of effort.
> 
> Before it was irrevocably lost.
> 
> Something to show the rest of the so called Muslim world, to prove that sub-continental Islam had not failed completely in their march towards Islamization of what they have always seen as the final frontier.
> 
> The final unconquered frontier that did not bend but absorbed and swallowed instead.
> 
> That was the dominant emotion behind the creation of Pakistan.
> 
> Secularism was as much a sham then as it is today.
> 
> No one buys it today. No one bought it then.



Are you trying to say something? You terribly lack that good command of English that is needed to demonstrate the poetic prowess. Keep it simple and say again whatever you are trying to say.


----------



## vsdoc

Porus said:


> Are you trying to say something? You terribly lack that good command of English that is needed to demonstrate the poetic prowess. Keep it simple and say again whatever you are trying to say.



I am saying that Jinnah's spiel of creating a *secular* nation for the *muslims* of undivided India was a sham.

A sham that nobody bought then - including his own people, during his own lifetime.

A sham that was not bought by his own blood, who chose India.

A sham that was exposed when the country he carved out in 1947 was further carved up in 1971. 

A sham that needless to say is not bought today either.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Just ban them.
> 
> PDF has become choked with new members who are here just to start flame wars. I don't even post anymore. Any thread i open up, is India vs Pakistan BS. Seriously, ban them!!!



NO.. we dont do this..
We are not like other forums and other people where critique is not tolerated and the other country is only ridiculed as the main focus. We are better than them..and will remain that way.


----------



## danger007

it will be foolishness to compare two great leaders... what the need to use "vs" here.....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Karachiite said:


> But if you actually look at his points for opposing the partition then it makes sense. He knew that once the subcontinent is divided then Muslims would be divided as well and look at it now, Muslims in South Asia are divided into 3 nationalities and have been turned against each other. Also I agree on why he tried to stop Indian Muslims from moving to Pakistan in 1947.
> 
> I'm not opposing Quaid e Azam because I know his concerns were valid and *partition for him was the last option.*



Exactly.. he saw too the same issues that the maulana did..
But when he experience the inflexibility shown by the more venomous Hindu politicians from India.. he was aghast at the worst case scenario in India which for which he thought that the worst case in Pakistan(if he was there to manage it or any of his close compatriots) would still be better than the former.
Unfortunately.. if one looks at that early history.. almost all of the original Muslim league stalwarts were either killed.. or sidelined by Ghulam Mohd.. and then Ayub Khan..a man purposefully slated for retirement by the Quaid.
Pakistan was never really allowed to be what it could be from day one.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

jbond197 said:


> Clearly Off-topic but, can you tell me how exactly you found LKO backward, buddy? I & my family don't live there but have visited the place numerous times and if you ask me I can never call it backward. The roads in LKO infact are even better than Delhi at many places.. The city got beautiful Gardens, Sahara shahar (city) and old monuments.. Hazrat ganj actually gives me glimpses of Canaught place (CP, Delhi). and most of the residential areas there are well planned and look nice too.. Now if you have been to the oldest of the oldest part of LKO then I can not comment but then each city has its share of good and bad and so does LKO.. Not saying LKO is one of most advanced city but it certainly can not be called backward by any means..
> 
> The biggest issue i see in the city is the way people drive there.. Even the traffic police waala can not stop anyone jumping the lights and they honk like crazies.. But I like that madness too..



I went a while ago.. so I cannot state the conditions now.. 
My ancestral home(whatever is left of it) 
Mostafa Manzil, Katra, Abo Tarab, Lucknow

My grandmothers father was the editor of an urdu daily from the area(apparently the paper shut down due to mismanagement by his sons) and was a staunch congress supporter.
He was close friends with Nehru.. and was able to simply walk into the PM's office whenever he wished.. 
I must admit I was saddened on a personal level when I visited that area since that very compound was once frequented by the likes of Jawaharlal Nehru and ironically maulana Azad..looked like a rundown area when I visited it.
None of his sons or even those of his cousins migrated right after 47... but as time passed they realized that India was not offering them all that was promised.. so one by one they moved to Pakistan.. those that did move to Pakistan prospered greatly.
My grandfather hailed from elsewhere.. had joined the IN in 45.. opted for Pakistan.. and we've done great.

Do I really want to give a hoot about India's Muslims? No..
These people are doing fine now.. although not as good as their cousins.. but to each their own.
Accomplished in their own right..but they do speak of issues in the community which I reflected upon.

Things have improved since then a LOT..
my mothers uncle is currently part of the comitte on labour.
I cant say.. I spoke to relatives out there..and they were very happy on fb.
The Compound itself looks brand new.. and renovated..
Perhaps there is hope.. 
After all.. what other person on PDF can say that he has members of family sitting in the govts and armed forces of both India and Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## vsdoc

Oscar said:


> he was aghast at the worst case scenario in India which for which he thought that the worst case in Pakistan(if he was there to manage it or any of his close compatriots) would still be better than the former.



If that's truly what he thought, something most of us doubt if not reject out of hand, then he would be squirming in his grave today at how wrong he was.



> Unfortunately.. if one looks at that early history.. almost all of the original Muslim league stalwarts were either killed.. or sidelined by Ghulam Mohd.. and then Ayub Khan..a man purposefully slated for retirement by the Quaid.
> Pakistan was never really allowed to be what it could be from day one.



At best Pakistan allowed to be what it could have been from day one would have been a Muslim India. A worthy ideal if it had worked out.

You may have your theories about why you failed. We have our own. But that in the final analysis would only be differing views of a post-mortem.


----------



## Tamizhan

Oscar said:


> I went a while ago.. so I cannot state the conditions now..
> My ancestral home(whatever is left of it) is in a very old area the name of which I cannot recall.
> My grandmothers father was the editor of an urdu daily from the area(apparently the paper shut down due to mismanagement by his sons) and was a staunch congress supporter.
> He was close friends with Nehru.. and was able to simply walk into the PM's office whenever he wished..
> I must admit I was saddened on a personal level when I visited that area since that very compound was once frequented by the likes of Jawaharlal Nehru and ironically maulana Azad..now looks like a rundown slum.
> None of his sons or even those of his cousins migrated right after 47... but as time passed they realized that India was not offering them all that was promised.. so one by one they moved to Pakistan.. those that did move to Pakistan prospered greatly.
> those that stayed.. are really just living in the same way they were back in the 50's.
> My grandfather hailed from elsewhere.. had joined the IN in 45.. opted for Pakistan.. and we've done great.
> 
> Do I really want to give a hoot about India's Muslims? No..
> But it does sadden me to see my roots in such dilapidated conditions.. even though the people left behind will change their sad faces to forced smiles when you ask how they feel in India.. One sees them not being able to have all that those people whom they spent their childhood with had. It does beg a question..



It begs a question what they are still doing in India ? Or more precisely why they have not left India for Pakistan ? After all they seem to have relatives there who can stand by by them and help them set a new life.

Any thoughts on that ?


----------



## Porus

vsdoc said:


> I am saying that Jinnah's spiel of creating a *secular* nation for the *muslims* of undivided India was a sham.



Shame on you for no knowing that Pakistan was not created to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India, even the exchange of population of Punjab that took place during partition was not pre-planned.



> A sham that nobody bought then - including his own people, during his own lifetime.



People who supported Jinnah and fought alongwith him for the creation of this country were inspired by the vision and leadership of Mr. Jinnah. But how this country in the following years fell into the hands of dumb military generals and their partner Mullahs who have turned it into a haven of intolerant and bigot fundamentalists is not a secret any more. We Pakistanis should sit and seriously think what kind of country do we want to have. A secular and democratic Pakistan as Jinnah has envisioned it to be, or we want to live in a religiously intolerant and regressive society whose foundations were laid by none other than Zia the mardood. 



> A sham that was not bought by his own blood, who chose India.



His family was closely associated with the Parsi community, his own daughter was married into a Parsi family. As we know that Parsis didn't migrate to Pakistan after partition, therefore, it shouldn't be a surprised that his daughter chose to remain in India.



> A sham that was exposed when the country he carved out in 1947 was further carved up in 1971.



America, since its inception, has always been a secular country that was envisioned by her founding fathers. Were they proved wrong when the country was plunged into a deadly civil war?



> A sham that needless to say is not bought today either.



This is justt your own figment of imagination. Millions of Pakistanis don't agree with the things going on in Pakistan and they want to have a secular and democratic country like Turkey and they will get it soon.


----------



## Tamizhan

Porus said:


> Shame on you for no knowing that Pakistan was not created to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India, even the exchange of population of Punjab that took place during partition was not pre-planned.



That is wrong.

Pakistan (as per Jinnah's vision) was indeed planned to be the home of all subcontinental Muslims from Punjab to UP to Assam to Deccan to Tamil Nadu. 

According to him, a subcontinental Muslim, whoever he is, is different in thought, action, culture from the Hindus and cannot livewith them. No where does he say Pakistan should be created only for Punjabi Muslims or UP Muslims or any specific group.

Such theories are nothing but revisionist fantasies by those who oppose the likes of Stranded Pakistanis in BD getting Pak citizenship.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## SQ8

Tamizhan said:


> It begs a question what they are still doing in India ? Or more precisely why they have not left India for Pakistan ? After all they seem to have relatives there who can stand by by them and help them set a new life.
> 
> Any thoughts on that ?



Please read my post again.. I have corrected details.


----------



## Porus

Tamizhan said:


> That is wrong.
> 
> Pakistan (as per Jinnah's vision) was indeed planned to be the home of all subcontinental Muslims from Punjab to UP to Assam to Deccan to Tamil Nadu.
> 
> According to him, a subcontinental Muslim, whoever he is, is different in thought, action, culture from the Hindus and cannot livewith them. No where does he say Pakistan should be created only for Punjabi Muslims or UP Muslims or any specific group.
> 
> Such theories are nothing but revisionist fantasies by those who oppose the likes of Stranded Pakistanis in BD getting Pak citizenship.



Jinnah indeed had said that Hindus and Muslims are two different nations but he still never said it anywhere that Pakistan would be the homeland of the entire Muslim population of British India. He was smart enough to know that neither Pak will be big enough to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India nor the people of Pakistan will ever accept it. This is the reason that soon after the partition new laws made migration from India to Pak illegal.


----------



## vsdoc

Thanks for that post Oscar.

Just by the way, my dad is from Lucknow too. A La Martinian. My great grandad was station master of Kanpur when it was still Cawnpore. 

For his many decades of service, the Brits gave him an entire bogey of a luxury train - which was somehow raised and permanently installed onto the second floor level of our ancestral home - which the locals call _dabba ghar_.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tamizhan

Oscar said:


> Please read my post again.. I have corrected details.



Now you are getting me a bit confused.

First you said they are sad and they forcibly smile when asked about India and now you have corrected to, "perhaps there is hope".So I take it that they are confident about India.

As regards certain "social issues" unfortunately for them, that is the legacy of Partition and of all those non-state actors who time and again have come to our soil for a guest-lecture and they have to learn to live with it. We are also humans, not saints. We can forgive, but not forget.



Porus said:


> Jinnah indeed had said that Hindus and Muslims are two different nations but he still never said it anywhere that Pakistan would be the homeland of the entire Muslim population of British India. He was smart enough to know that neither Pak will be big enough to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India nor the people of Pakistan will ever accept it. This is the reason that soon after the partition new laws made migration from India to Pak illegal.



You are just playing on semantics. 

Pakistan was envisioned as the home of all subcontinental Muslims and there can be no two opinion about it. Just because laws were made by the natives to protect their interest doesn't mean Jinnah endorsed it. 

What (or who) do you mean by "people of Pakistan" ? Are the Muhajirs/Biharis/Daccanis included in that ? If not, its going against Jinnah's vision. A part of our nation was separated so that all the Muslims can live in it free from Hindu domination. That is the crux of TNT. It is not the Punjabis ,Sindhis and Pathans can live free from Hindu domination. 

_p.s. Practicality of running a nation was never a consideration of Muslim League or Jinnah till they actually got what they wished for._

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## vsdoc

Porus said:


> Shame on you for no knowing that Pakistan was not created to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India, even the exchange of population of Punjab that took place during partition was not pre-planned.



What is the cornerstone of the Two Nation Theory? 



> People who supported Jinnah and fought alongwith him for the creation of this country were inspired by the vision and leadership of Mr. Jinnah. But how this country in the following years fell into the hands of dumb military generals and their partner Mullahs who have turned it into a haven of intolerant and bigot fundamentalists is not a secret any more. We Pakistanis should sit and seriously think what kind of country do we want to have. A secular and democratic Pakistan as Jinnah has envisioned it to be, or we want to live in a religiously intolerant and regressive society whose foundations were laid by none other than Zia the mardood.



Please hurry to it. Its taken you 65 years and counting. And many of yours on this very forum would be your strongest critics and opponents in the effort. 



> His family was closely associated with the Parsi community, his own daughter was married into a Parsi family. As we know that Parsis didn't migrate to Pakistan after partition, therefore, it shouldn't be a surprised that his daughter chose to remain in India.



Jinnah died lonely lonely man. As did his wife before him. They were had been living separately for years. There was no love lost between Jinnah and his daughter. And it was mutual.

We have been through all this before, and I do not want to rake through it again. If interested -

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/33413-jinnahs-grandson-nusli-wadia-shocked-bjps-take.html 

For the record, there are around 20,000 Parsis at last count still living in Pakistan.



> America, since its inception, has always been a secular country that was envisioned by her founding fathers. Were they proved wrong when the country was plunged into a deadly civil war?



They would have been if they had been cleaved into two years after their creation on the very basis of the very fundamentals the edifice of their creation had been built on.



> This is justt your own figment of imagination. Millions of Pakistanis don't agree with the things going on in Pakistan and they want to have a secular and democratic country like Turkey and they will get it soon.



I wish you the best of luck.

What do you plan to do about the nearly vanished white stripe of your national flag though? 

Import?

I wish you the very best with that too.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Porus

Tamizhan said:


> You are just playing on semantics.
> 
> Pakistan was envisioned as the home of all subcontinental Muslims and there can be no two opinion about it. Just because laws were made by the natives to protect their interest doesn't mean Jinnah endorsed it.
> 
> What (or who) do you mean by "people of Pakistan" ? Are the Muhajirs/Biharis/Daccanis included in that ? If not, its going against Jinnah's vision. A part of our nation was separated so that all the Muslims can live in it free from Hindu domination. That is the crux of TNT. It is not the Punjabis ,Sindhis and Pathans can live free from Hindu domination.
> 
> _p.s. Practicality of running a nation was never a consideration of Muslim League or Jinnah till they actually got what they wished for._



Life will be less painful for you if you learn to accept reality. A part of 'your' nation were the lands of those people who had been living on their lands since hundreds and thousands of years, who labored upon this land to grow food and fought wars and shed their blood to defend it from the aggressors, and if they had not lost wars against the British their land would have never become a part of 'your' nation.

Pakistanis are those who are now the nationals of Pakistan. Those Muslims who migrated from India to Pak and have acquired its citizenship are equal Pakistanis now.

It will be even foolish to imagine that a Pashtun or even Punjabi will ever be ready to share his land with millions of immigrants with whom they hardly share anything except religion. Jinnah never said it and he never asked them to leave India and migrate to their new homeland. Before leaving for Pakistan he left a message for the Muslims of India, he said that since Pak and India are now to separate countries the Muslim of India should be loyal to their country.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Porus

vsdoc said:


> What is the cornerstone of the Two Nation Theory?
> 
> 
> 
> Please hurry to it. Its taken you 65 years and counting. And many of yours on this very forum would be your strongest critics and opponents in the effort.
> 
> 
> 
> Jinnah died lonely lonely man. As did his wife before him. They were had been living separately for years. There was no love lost between Jinnah and his daughter. And it was mutual.
> 
> We have been through all this before, and I do not want to rake through it again. If interested -
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/33413-jinnahs-grandson-nusli-wadia-shocked-bjps-take.html
> 
> For the record, there are around 20,000 Parsis at last count still living in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> They would have been if they had been cleaved into two years after their creation on the very basis of the very fundamentals the edifice of their creation had been built on.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish you the best of luck.
> 
> What do you plan to do about the nearly vanished white stripe of your national flag though?
> 
> Import?
> 
> I wish you the very best with that too.



No, I don't have any time to indulge myself in senseless discussions. Find someone else to kill your free time.


----------



## vsdoc

Porus said:


> No, I don't have any time to indulge myself in senseless discussions. Find someone else to kill your free time.



Translation: I don't have answers, and the ones I do, make me extremely uncomfortable.

Advice: Don't start something you cannot finish. Better to choose you battles. Even better to choose your adversary.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## vsdoc

Porus said:


> Before leaving for Pakistan he left a message for the Muslims of India, he said that since Pak and India are now to separate countries the *Muslim of India should be loyal to their country.*



Really rich coming from a muslim who hailed from Gujarat and spent a large chunk of his life in Mumbai.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> The question I think we should ask is would Mr Azad and Mr Jinnah come to their respective conclusions that they did pre partition with the benefit of hind site in 2012.
> 
> In doing so we need not just to look at Pakistan successes and failures but at India's as well.
> 
> It simply is not good enough to look at the strife in Pakistan it's problems and say the Quaid was wrong and that we would have been better off with India.
> 
> In this regard we need to look at India and its issues and problems.
> 
> I have posted indicators and statistics from Indian and UN agencies about India and can do so again if necessary which show that India is not secular and that minorities are severely prejudiced. Notwithstanding the constitution and the laws of India which in my opinion are not being enforced I believe that had Mr Azad had access to this data he would have come to the same conclusions the Quaid came to at pre partition and the Quaid's position would be vindicated.
> 
> The reason that I do not put those figures here is that Indian forum members get so upset and take it as a personal attack on them and India because it shows India in such a bad light and start trolling and the thread gets closed two or three pages later.




I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.

That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later. 

Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.

I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid


Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth. 

On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan

I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless: 

*A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*



Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?

*Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*

Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to India&#8217;s politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:

*Poverty Graph*

According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the world&#8217;s hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. India&#8217;s Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. India&#8217;s rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under &#8220;ALARMING&#8221; category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India

Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India&#8217;s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank&#8217;s poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
*
The Current Account Balance of India*

&#8220;A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent &#8230; (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,&#8221; says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.

According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]

*Human Development vs GDP growth*

The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that India&#8217;s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysia&#8217;s $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.

Population:

According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are &#8220;Other Backward Castes&#8221;.

15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India&#8217;s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in India&#8217;s power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]

The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of India&#8217;s primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!

*Living conditions of Indians*

89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation&#8217;s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]

According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.

*Education*

India has over 35 per cent of the world&#8217;s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)

About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools don&#8217;t have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of India&#8217;s schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.

Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.

*Health*

India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India&#8217;s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.

107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.

There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.

Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]

*Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*

In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India&#8217;s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India&#8217;s GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!

The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.

India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to India&#8217;s national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
*
Corruption
*
According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. &#8220;Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber.&#8221; says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]

*Discrimination against Dalits*

Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]

*Human Rights*

When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.

India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an &#8216;extensive surveillance society&#8217;. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country &#8220;consistently upholds human rights standards&#8221;. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.

India&#8217;s intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.

According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. That&#8217;s more than 70 %. India&#8217;s jails hold a disproportionate number of the country&#8217;s minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in India&#8217;s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here

India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, &#8220;Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption.&#8221; The State Department observes: &#8220;There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths.&#8221; Read Freedom House Report from here.

*Minorities*

About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. &#8220;Others&#8221; numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, &#8220;The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc&#8221;.

*Discrimination against Minority Muslims*

Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel &#8212; a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims&#8217; 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don&#8217;t allow head count based on religion.

A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, &#8216;there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.&#8217;

*Discrimination in Media*

Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.

The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
*
Discrimination in Judiciary*

India&#8217;s subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.

Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from &#8220;through a shrewd process of manipulation&#8221;. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. &#8220;This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged&#8221;. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).

According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!

*Discrimination against Children*

According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of India&#8217;s urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.

The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report &#8216;Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India&#8217; by the UN&#8217;s special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.

*Discrimination against Women
*
According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.

There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It&#8217;s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows &#8211; at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 &#8211; are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta&#8217;s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.

Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.

On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death &#8211; they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.

Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
*
Fetus Killing
*
Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.

Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)

*Human Trafficking*

Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.

95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar,&#8217; said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.

India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.

*High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*

India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website

On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under India&#8217;s notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.

*Economic Crimes*

Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers&#8217; India findings:

* Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
* The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
* In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
* In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]

*Armed Conflicts in India*

Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.

63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.

According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.

India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)

In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.

&#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.

Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India

With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.

Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.

By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.

Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.

Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.

The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.

According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.

Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
*
Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*

In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.

Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.

76 per cent of the nation&#8217;s land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]

70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.

*Unemployment*

Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country&#8217;s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn&#8217;t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.

Retail trade employs 8 percent of India&#8217;s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]

Call centers and other outsourced businesses &#8212; such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks &#8212; employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India&#8217;s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
*
Internal Migration and influx to the cities*

Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper, &#8221; says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.

India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhi&#8217;s image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capital&#8217;s 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed &#8216;crime capital&#8217; of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.

*India, a closed country*

India&#8217;s share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEF&#8217;s recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of &#8216;developing and threshold countries&#8217;, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.

Indian immigration doesn&#8217;t welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.

Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for &#8216;red tapes&#8216; and &#8216; corruption friendly service&#8216; a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a &#8220;hospitable country&#8221;. ASSOCHAM

*Global Warming effects in India*

Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.

*Transportation*

Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers &#8211; motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the world&#8217;s vehicle population.

*Road Safety*

India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of India&#8217;s Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.

According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the country&#8217;s economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts India&#8217;s death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.

*Doing Business in India*

It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.

India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]

*Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*

In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.

Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
*
Foreigners Living in India*

Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.

Under the current scenario, potential migrants or &#8216;invaders&#8217; to India include few &#8216;hired or weird&#8217; Pakistani bombers, villagers around India&#8217;s border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is &#8216;legally and morally fit&#8217; to become India&#8217;s next Prime Minister.
*
Quit India!*

Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
*
Hindutva&#8217;s fake National Pride on India*

A 2006 opinion poll by Outlook&#8212;AC Nielsen shows that 46 % of India&#8217;s urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.

Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.

When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on &#8220;National Pride of India&#8221;?

India is the World Bank&#8217;s largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake &#8216;India Shining&#8217; propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britain&#8217;s aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]

Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality &#8211; of class, caste, wealth, religion &#8211; this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.



Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.

To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.

*
Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??* 



A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Porus

vsdoc said:


> Translation: I don't have answers, and the ones I do, make me extremely uncomfortable.
> 
> Advice: Don't start something you cannot finish. Better to choose you battles. Even better to choose your adversary.



Don't take yourself too seriously. I have replied to your nonsense even though that kind of trash doesn't deserve any reply. Now as you have hardly anything to add because of your limited knowledge you have started blabbering, that is why I told you to find someone else to kill your free time you seem to have in abundance.



vsdoc said:


> Really rich coming from a muslim who hailed from Gujarat and spent a large chunk of his life in Mumbai.



That was his message that must have arrived. He was born in Sindh and where he spent most of his life is irrelevant here. Again, you have hardly anything constructive to add here, therefore instead of making a fool of yourself you better leave.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Come on Indians where are you??? Tell me after reading that Dalit telling us all that over a billion want to leave India you still think the Quaid was wrong and Mr Azad was correct???

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Guest01

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !



And I got an infraction for a post on this thread when I called a spade a spade 

Since the basis of Jinnah response in the telegram was Islam, that is why my attempt to focus on the fact that our Maulana was a much better Muslim than the western oriented second generation Muslim and a wine connosieur that Jinnah was! 

If someone comes back and tells us that the pompousness of Jinnah's view regarding the impossibility of co-existence of Muslims with other religions in India was correct and that the muslims needed an homogenous country, then please see what West Paksitan Muslims did to East Pakistan Muslims in 1971 and the years up to it from 1947. Or see what the mainstream did to the Ahmedis or see what the shias are doing to the sunnis. So categorising the lots in piety or way of existence by Jinnah was a totally folly in the way he did. And up to the last day his total incapability to understand other muslims views is what is reflected in his pompous response to Maulana in the gram as highlighted.

What is there in what Jinnah wrote or did in his life (as a Muslim) because that is a canard that he invokes in the gram which is the subject and the premise of the discussion of the comparison between Jinnah and my Maulana that proves him to be a better Muslim or a better administrator or a better human being? The events immediately succeeding partition in Pakistan actually point out that it is Jinnah who was taken on a ride by the feudals and the league in Pakistan and it was Jinnah who was made a show boy because from days immediately succeeding the partition and up to this day, Pakistanis are yet to resolve what Jinnah actually wanted from Pakistan! Because purportedly everything that happened or is happening was supposedly totally opposite to what Jinnah wanted.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## lem34

You two above you have had all the niceties and politeness you are going to get on this thread. You are transparent and your argmunts are hollow in light of what that Indian Dalit has said about India. let me sum it up for you if you cant be bothered to read it cos it shows India for what it is. He is saying India is a toilet that everyone is trying to leave. You lot are trying to suggest to us that Azad was some kind of hero cos we would have been better of in India and we should have stayed. Which bit of the statistics and information supplied do you not understand??? I think not. tell me which bit of that post you believe to be incorrect lol.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Indian dalits were the one who wrote constitution of india..

This is a blog and someone has correctly pointed out the bigoted, delusional,and inferiority complex of one of the premium member..no ones care.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

vsdoc said:


> Really rich coming from a muslim who hailed from Gujarat and spent a large chunk of his life in Mumbai.


 
Well, the logic of TNT are full of holes and duplicity.

If Hindus and Muslims are indeed separate nations, it never made sense not to have population transfer.

If it was about West Pakistan, it never made sense for a Gujarati to lead Punjabis and Pushtuns.

And of course East Pakistan aka Bangladesh!

Mr. Jinnah argued that his religious identity was greater than his national identity of being Indian (after being a staunch India and ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity for decades).

Then he claimed that Punjabis were Punjabis first and Hindu or Muslim or Sikh later (when the time came to translate it).

Of course partition proved all this wrong.

We are happy for the partition and happy to be rid of each other. Whether TNT was right or wrong is moot now.

Live and let live.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to India&#8217;s politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the world&#8217;s hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. India&#8217;s Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. India&#8217;s rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under &#8220;ALARMING&#8221; category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India&#8217;s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank&#8217;s poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> &#8220;A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent &#8230; (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,&#8221; says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that India&#8217;s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysia&#8217;s $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are &#8220;Other Backward Castes&#8221;.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India&#8217;s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in India&#8217;s power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of India&#8217;s primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation&#8217;s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the world&#8217;s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools don&#8217;t have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of India&#8217;s schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India&#8217;s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India&#8217;s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India&#8217;s GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to India&#8217;s national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. &#8220;Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber.&#8221; says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an &#8216;extensive surveillance society&#8217;. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country &#8220;consistently upholds human rights standards&#8221;. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> India&#8217;s intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. That&#8217;s more than 70 %. India&#8217;s jails hold a disproportionate number of the country&#8217;s minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in India&#8217;s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, &#8220;Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption.&#8221; The State Department observes: &#8220;There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths.&#8221; Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. &#8220;Others&#8221; numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, &#8220;The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc&#8221;.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel &#8212; a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims&#8217; 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don&#8217;t allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, &#8216;there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.&#8217;
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> India&#8217;s subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from &#8220;through a shrewd process of manipulation&#8221;. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. &#8220;This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged&#8221;. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of India&#8217;s urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report &#8216;Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India&#8217; by the UN&#8217;s special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It&#8217;s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows &#8211; at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 &#8211; are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta&#8217;s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death &#8211; they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar,&#8217; said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under India&#8217;s notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers&#8217; India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> &#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nation&#8217;s land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country&#8217;s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn&#8217;t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of India&#8217;s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses &#8212; such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks &#8212; employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India&#8217;s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper, &#8221; says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhi&#8217;s image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capital&#8217;s 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed &#8216;crime capital&#8217; of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> India&#8217;s share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEF&#8217;s recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of &#8216;developing and threshold countries&#8217;, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesn&#8217;t welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for &#8216;red tapes&#8216; and &#8216; corruption friendly service&#8216; a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a &#8220;hospitable country&#8221;. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers &#8211; motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the world&#8217;s vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of India&#8217;s Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the country&#8217;s economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts India&#8217;s death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or &#8216;invaders&#8217; to India include few &#8216;hired or weird&#8217; Pakistani bombers, villagers around India&#8217;s border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is &#8216;legally and morally fit&#8217; to become India&#8217;s next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutva&#8217;s fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by Outlook&#8212;AC Nielsen shows that 46 % of India&#8217;s urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on &#8220;National Pride of India&#8221;?
> 
> India is the World Bank&#8217;s largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake &#8216;India Shining&#8217; propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britain&#8217;s aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality &#8211; of class, caste, wealth, religion &#8211; this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India




tell me after reading the above?? Was Azad correct-NO

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EjazR

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !


 
This telegram is a perfect example of what we call attacking the character of a person rather than discuss the issue. Look at the language used against leader of the largest national party of India at that time and one of the most important Muslim leaders as well. Can anyone consider it respectable? Of course not.

Any sane person will recognize how unreasonable Jinnah had become in this telegram and how he had started using Islam and Muslim as a political tool.Muslims rights wasn't an issue anymore, but his own political victory. It didn't matter if Maulana Azad was an Islamic scholar and came from a long family of Islamic scholars and was born in Mecca. Neither did it matter that Jinnah was a grandson of a Hindu Poonja Gokuldas Meghji (same as caste as Gandhi apparently), drank alcohol and had no idea about the basics of Islam

*Might I use this as an example for non-Muslim members to learn from this* and not have a knee-jerk reaction that a clean shave win sipping Pakistani(or any other nationalist) can be an political Islamist who really has nothing to do with Islam itself and hardly practices it. On the other hand, you can have a Pakistani with a beard and turban who prays 5 times a day and practice Islam in his lives who will be more tolerant and reasonable. Same applies to other religions of course.


The reason for Jinnah to respond with a character attack on Maulana Azad rather than address the issue in his telegram was simple, Jinnah could not win a direct argument on Muslim rights on this issue. He was under the instructions from Churchill to not compromise and insist on declaring Congress as a Hindu only party. (as disclosed by his secret correspondence and his willingness to provide Pakistan as a pawn in the new great game (Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan))

And what an excellent strategic tool Pakistan was for the west. Right from the 1950s, U2 spy planes were flying from Pakistan over the USSR. It joined CENTO and SEATO pacts. In the 1980s, it worked with US and Saudi Arabia to pervert and poison Islamic doctrines and the concept of Jihad for which Muslims around the world including within Pakistan are facing the consequences of today. Even leaving aside that some of the biggest slaughter of Muslims wether in East Pakistan or in Jordan during the Black September was done under the Pakistani Army command. Hence making Pakistan probably the biggest liability to the Islamic world according to some.

What is funny is that Muslim League never had majority support in present day Pakistan itself. In NWFP the Congress was a majority. Punjab, the unionist and Congress party had a majority. In Sindh, it was only with the support of the British members of the assembly that Muslim league could come to power. And even then the Sindh Muslim league members soon after independance realised the mistake they had done.

Read GM Syed, the person who had worked day and night to build up Muslim Leauge and what he had to say about this here The Caseof Sindh - G.M. Syed&#8217;s deposition in court (Part 1)

Also Khan Abdul Wali Khan, the son of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan and one of the most famous and revered pashtoon in modern times on both sides of the Durand line. Not to mention in India as well. Facts Are Sacred by Wali Khan

I request people who truly want to understand what was happening in the then North West India to read through both the links. I would particularly request Indians to read this as well.

Both of these people were giants in their provinces. While Wali Khan and GM Syed had regional stature, Bacha Khan of course had national - even International stature. And the sad thing is that all these personalities were jailed for decades in "independent" Pakistan and even today are not honored for their contribution to independence.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## lem34

Bottom line an Indian Dalit above has said that India is a toilet which everyone is trying to leave based on govt of inida or UN figures. Had Azad had the benefit of these statistics and figures he would have agreed with the great Quaid. Why do you Indians get off on the fiction that Quaid and we were wrong to go for Pakistan. Go look at the figures above. keep this thread alive so all can see those facts and figures and Pakistanis can appreciate what we have despite our problems

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EjazR

Aryan_B said:


> The Quaid was President of the Indian Congress whilst Nehru was in shorts he realised that Pakistan was the only way because of his experience.


 
Ah, ignorance is not bliss on this issue sir.

Jinnah was never a president although he wanted to be one. He never had any mass base among Muslims before the 1940s because of his British attitude and style which did not gel with the Muslim masses. He had difficulty speaking Urdu for example.

On the other hand, Maluana Azad, Maulana Mohammed Ali, Badruddin Tayabji, Hakim Ajmal Khan, Dr. MA Ansari and many other Muslim leaders who had a son of the soil quality which both the average Muslims and Hindus in India could identify with.

That is of course until he started using Islam as a political tool and rallied Muslims around the Islam in danger call. He was of course helped by the Hindu Mahasabha and similar Hindu groups who also used Hindus in danger call to mobilize their own base.

Here is the entire list of Congress Presidents since its founding
*Indian National Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to India&#8217;s politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the world&#8217;s hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. India&#8217;s Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. India&#8217;s rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under &#8220;ALARMING&#8221; category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India&#8217;s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank&#8217;s poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> &#8220;A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent &#8230; (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,&#8221; says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that India&#8217;s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysia&#8217;s $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are &#8220;Other Backward Castes&#8221;.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India&#8217;s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in India&#8217;s power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of India&#8217;s primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation&#8217;s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the world&#8217;s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools don&#8217;t have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of India&#8217;s schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India&#8217;s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India&#8217;s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India&#8217;s GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to India&#8217;s national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. &#8220;Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber.&#8221; says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an &#8216;extensive surveillance society&#8217;. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country &#8220;consistently upholds human rights standards&#8221;. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> India&#8217;s intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. That&#8217;s more than 70 %. India&#8217;s jails hold a disproportionate number of the country&#8217;s minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in India&#8217;s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, &#8220;Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption.&#8221; The State Department observes: &#8220;There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths.&#8221; Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. &#8220;Others&#8221; numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, &#8220;The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc&#8221;.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel &#8212; a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims&#8217; 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don&#8217;t allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, &#8216;there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.&#8217;
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> India&#8217;s subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from &#8220;through a shrewd process of manipulation&#8221;. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. &#8220;This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged&#8221;. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of India&#8217;s urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report &#8216;Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India&#8217; by the UN&#8217;s special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It&#8217;s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows &#8211; at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 &#8211; are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta&#8217;s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death &#8211; they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar,&#8217; said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under India&#8217;s notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers&#8217; India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> &#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nation&#8217;s land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country&#8217;s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn&#8217;t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of India&#8217;s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses &#8212; such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks &#8212; employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India&#8217;s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper, &#8221; says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhi&#8217;s image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capital&#8217;s 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed &#8216;crime capital&#8217; of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> India&#8217;s share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEF&#8217;s recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of &#8216;developing and threshold countries&#8217;, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesn&#8217;t welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for &#8216;red tapes&#8216; and &#8216; corruption friendly service&#8216; a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a &#8220;hospitable country&#8221;. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers &#8211; motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the world&#8217;s vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of India&#8217;s Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the country&#8217;s economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts India&#8217;s death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or &#8216;invaders&#8217; to India include few &#8216;hired or weird&#8217; Pakistani bombers, villagers around India&#8217;s border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is &#8216;legally and morally fit&#8217; to become India&#8217;s next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutva&#8217;s fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by Outlook&#8212;AC Nielsen shows that 46 % of India&#8217;s urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on &#8220;National Pride of India&#8221;?
> 
> India is the World Bank&#8217;s largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake &#8216;India Shining&#8217; propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britain&#8217;s aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality &#8211; of class, caste, wealth, religion &#8211; this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India




Bottom line an Indian Dalit above has said that India is a toilet which everyone is trying to leave based on govt of inida or UN figures. Had Azad had the benefit of these statistics and figures he would have agreed with the great Quaid. Why do you Indians get off on the fiction that Quaid and we were wrong to go for Pakistan. Go look at the figures above. keep this thread alive so all can see those facts and figures and Pakistanis can appreciate what we have despite our problems


*
Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EjazR

^^^^Have you tried comparing the stats of Dalits in India and the stats of average Pakistanis?

I suggest you do compare the literacy rates, life expectancy, no. of violent deaths e.t.c

Then tell me if *Maulana Azad* was correct?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to Indias politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the worlds hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. Indias Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. Indias rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under ALARMING category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the Indias planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Banks poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent  (and) consolidated fiscal deficit, says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that Indias GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysias $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are Other Backward Castes.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of Indias civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in Indias power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of Indias primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nations capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the worlds total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools dont have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of Indias schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, Indias spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of Indias GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of Indias GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to Indias national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber. says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an extensive surveillance society. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country consistently upholds human rights standards. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> Indias intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. Thats more than 70 %. Indias jails hold a disproportionate number of the countrys minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in Indias largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption. The State Department observes: There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths. Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. Others numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel  a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army dont allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of Indias urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India by the UNs special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. Its believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows  at least 40per cent are said to be under 50  are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehtas award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death  they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar, said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under Indias notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of Indias new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of Indias 602 districts  mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh  are badly affected by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as Maoist terror. Indias military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Armys budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by worlds weapon industry! India is now one of the worlds most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. Indias crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the countrys largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israels largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market, says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. Indias Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, Indias National Interest simply means their self Interest. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the worlds largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked worlds second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the worlds heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutvas security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nations land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the countrys 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesnt have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of Indias population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses  such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks  employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among Indias working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper,  says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhis image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capitals 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed crime capital of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> Indias share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEFs recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of developing and threshold countries, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesnt welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for red tapes and  corruption friendly service a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a hospitable country. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers  motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the worlds vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of Indias Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the countrys economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts Indias death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or invaders to India include few hired or weird Pakistani bombers, villagers around Indias border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is legally and morally fit to become Indias next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutvas fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by OutlookAC Nielsen shows that 46 % of Indias urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on National Pride of India?
> 
> India is the World Banks largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake India Shining propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britains aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality  of class, caste, wealth, religion  this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India



You first


*
Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> *This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. *


This is hilarious.




> I*ndia&#8217;s intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. *







> A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups.








> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel &#8212; a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims&#8217; 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don&#8217;t allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, &#8216;there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.&#8217;




So who actually constituted the Justice Sachar report. Can't possibly be the evil upper castes who run the show & since earlier it was mentioned that Judges are generally compromised, how did & who let this guy prepare such a report?




> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It&#8217;s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows &#8211; at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 &#8211; are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. *Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta&#8217;s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production*.




Oh boy.I can't stop laughing.  They are basing the comments on a period movie?




> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death &#8211; they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.



Funny how India's anti-dowry laws now are believed to be too tough so much so that the misuse of the law is one of the biggest worries.





> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under India&#8217;s notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.



Quite a comedy show this.




> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed


. 






> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following *the Mumbai attacks*. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington


.


Ahh.finally a Pakistani hand.




> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.



Ahh.... Beginning to see a pattern.....




> &#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.



Connection of this quote to the topic here?



> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the *emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists,* India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.



AH..A HINDU ZIONIST-NEOCON AGENDA AT WORK.......



> By creating conflicts in this poor country, *Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces.* To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.



Oh boy! This gets better & better.



> Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. *Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.*




Now we begin to get the drift of who exactly might be worried about India's defence procurement



> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.



Ahhh.... a fervent wish....a forlorn hope.....




> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country&#8217;s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn&#8217;t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of India&#8217;s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses &#8212; such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks &#8212; employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. *Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India&#8217;s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. *That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.


*

Unemployment?? After the Mahatma Gandhi NREGA was started, unemployment pretty much exists only in the minds of those wishing to remain unemployed. In Karnataka, we face a huge,huge shortage of labour almost bordering on the ridiculous. Unemployment? Huh?





Global Warming effects in India

Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.

Click to expand...


Global warming is a Brahmin Hindu elite conspiracy...??






Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians

In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.

Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.

Click to expand...



Absolutely no connection unless a particular neighbour wishes it were receiving this bounty.





Foreigners Living in India

Click to expand...





Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.

Click to expand...

More funny stuff.....




Under the current scenario, potential migrants or &#8216;invaders&#8217; to India include few &#8216;hired or weird&#8217; Pakistani bombers, villagers around India&#8217;s border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is &#8216;legally and morally fit&#8217; to become India&#8217;s next Prime Minister

Click to expand...

.

What the heck? Pakistani born Indian sikh is now PM.






Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.

Click to expand...



Even more funny stuff.




Hindutva&#8217;s fake National Pride on India

Click to expand...





Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.

Click to expand...


The same police controlled by the Brahminical elite that is mentioned elsewhere?




When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on &#8220;National Pride of India&#8221;?

Click to expand...


Hindutva idiots indeed!





India is the World Bank&#8217;s largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake &#8216;India Shining&#8217; propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country.

Click to expand...


So that's why governments refuse aid. i get it. The world bank actually gives us loans as opposed to some neighbour....




Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality &#8211; of class, caste, wealth, religion &#8211; this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.


Click to expand...


Whose life? That of wannabe Indians? Those trying so hard to pass themselves as Indians abroad...?



To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.

Click to expand...


Thanks very much for your concern.





Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??

Click to expand...


We like him anyways even if we are all secretly glad that Mr.Jinnah got his way....*

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Vinod2070

^^ Can't believe you actually took the trouble!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Ok lets agree to differ I think Mr Azad was wrong you differ fine you go your way in denial I will go my way happy 

Long live Pakistan  that took me 10 seconds cos I am not obsessed with India

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notsuperstitious

EjazR said:


> ^^^^Have you tried comparing the stats of Dalits in India and the stats of average Pakistanis?
> 
> I suggest you do compare the literacy rates, life expectancy, no. of violent deaths e.t.c
> 
> Then tell me if *Maulana Azad* was correct?



Let him keep posting that 2007 anonymous blog entry, he is doing it on all threads for a while now. Thats his escape from reality, that far more pakistanis leave their heavenly country than Indians 

Back to topic - Azad's predictions were incredibly accurate, while pakistan broke into pieces on ethnic grounds, then became a simi religious semi democracy often ruled by semi drunk dictators. Instead of becoming a safe haven for indian muslims, became their slaughter house in karachi, even local shias getting slaughtered regularly, gave away part of their beloved kashmir to china, lectured on islam but allowed CIA spy planes to operate from peshawar even before 1960, allowed own precious population to be used as cannon fodder in afghanistan, sold them to CIA for cash reward after 9/11, failed to implement land reforms, became safe haven for ladins and dawoods... all just as Maulana Azad had predicted.

Jinnah promised one thing, delivered another, great achievements include a million dead during partition, direct action day, lying through the teeth on kashmiri kabaili invadors, lying on secularism and a place for all minorities, defending the likes of ilm ud din (fast forward 2011 - mumtaz qazi and rose petals)...

And while I have no problems pakistanis consider jinnah their hero, they have the cheeck to abuse the brilliant and humane maulana.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Vinod2070

> Thats his escape from reality, that far more pakistanis leave their heavenly country than Indians



He being one of them! 

But it is only an extreme case of a common malady.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel  a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army dont allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!



I wonder what Mr Azad would have said about the above.



Vinod2070 said:


> He being one of them!
> 
> But it is only an extreme case of a common malady.



face it Mr Azad's comments when he was was commenting on Pakistan were nothing but self serving to justify his position


----------



## Vinod2070

Is it OK to spam the thread by posting the same thing over and over?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Indians please keep commenting so all Pakistanis can see statistics and thank their lucky stars for all our problems how blessed we are that the Quaid's vision materialised



Vinod2070 said:


> Is it OK to spam the thread by posting the same thing over and over?



Anything that makes people aware how that India is not incredible and shining and that we are lucky to have Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

Aryan_B said:


> Indians please keep commenting so all Pakistanis can see statistics and thank their lucky stars for all our problems how blessed we are that the Quaid's vision materialised
> 
> Anything that makes people aware how that India is not incredible and shining and that we are lucky to have Pakistan



Why leave Pakistan and go to an *Islamophobe* country where you can't even integrate?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Vinod2070 said:


> Why leave Pakistan and go to an *Islamophobe* country where you can't even integrate?



If UK is as you state India is worse.

*Pakistani brothers read what is below and give a zillion thanks to Allah and thanks to the Quaid we have nothing to do with what is below*



Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to India&#8217;s politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the world&#8217;s hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. India&#8217;s Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. India&#8217;s rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under &#8220;ALARMING&#8221; category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India&#8217;s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank&#8217;s poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> &#8220;A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent &#8230; (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,&#8221; says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that India&#8217;s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysia&#8217;s $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are &#8220;Other Backward Castes&#8221;.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India&#8217;s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in India&#8217;s power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of India&#8217;s primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation&#8217;s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the world&#8217;s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools don&#8217;t have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of India&#8217;s schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India&#8217;s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India&#8217;s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India&#8217;s GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to India&#8217;s national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. &#8220;Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber.&#8221; says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an &#8216;extensive surveillance society&#8217;. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country &#8220;consistently upholds human rights standards&#8221;. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> India&#8217;s intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. That&#8217;s more than 70 %. India&#8217;s jails hold a disproportionate number of the country&#8217;s minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in India&#8217;s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, &#8220;Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption.&#8221; The State Department observes: &#8220;There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths.&#8221; Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. &#8220;Others&#8221; numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, &#8220;The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc&#8221;.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel &#8212; a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims&#8217; 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don&#8217;t allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, &#8216;there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.&#8217;
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> India&#8217;s subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from &#8220;through a shrewd process of manipulation&#8221;. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. &#8220;This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged&#8221;. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of India&#8217;s urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report &#8216;Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India&#8217; by the UN&#8217;s special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It&#8217;s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows &#8211; at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 &#8211; are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta&#8217;s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death &#8211; they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar,&#8217; said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under India&#8217;s notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers&#8217; India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> &#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nation&#8217;s land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country&#8217;s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn&#8217;t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of India&#8217;s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses &#8212; such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks &#8212; employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India&#8217;s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper, &#8221; says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhi&#8217;s image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capital&#8217;s 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed &#8216;crime capital&#8217; of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> India&#8217;s share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEF&#8217;s recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of &#8216;developing and threshold countries&#8217;, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesn&#8217;t welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for &#8216;red tapes&#8216; and &#8216; corruption friendly service&#8216; a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a &#8220;hospitable country&#8221;. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers &#8211; motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the world&#8217;s vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of India&#8217;s Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the country&#8217;s economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts India&#8217;s death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or &#8216;invaders&#8217; to India include few &#8216;hired or weird&#8217; Pakistani bombers, villagers around India&#8217;s border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is &#8216;legally and morally fit&#8217; to become India&#8217;s next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutva&#8217;s fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by Outlook&#8212;AC Nielsen shows that 46 % of India&#8217;s urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on &#8220;National Pride of India&#8221;?
> 
> India is the World Bank&#8217;s largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake &#8216;India Shining&#8217; propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britain&#8217;s aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality &#8211; of class, caste, wealth, religion &#8211; this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India


----------



## Vinod2070

Aryan_B said:


> If UK is as you state India is worse.



But is Islamophobe UK better than the Islamic Pakistan?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## EjazR

*@Aryan_B*

The head of the largest Muhajir party in Pakistan Altaf Hussain has said partition was the biggest blunder in the history of Mankind.

*If Col Elahi Bakhsh is to be believed *( he was the doctor looking after Jinnah towards his final days), then according to him Jinnah said more or less that although I have made Pakistan, I think I have made the biggest mistake of my life. And this was just before his death.


The fact that you keep quoting a blogpost without actually communicating shows how insecure you are.

In any case, Pakistan is a reality and is not going anywhere. Try to actually follow what Jinnah said how he wanted relations with India (like US-Canada).

And do read my post and attached reference material
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## jbond197

Aryan_B said:


> Indians please keep commenting so all Pakistanis can see statistics and thank their lucky stars for all our problems how blessed we are that the Quaid's vision materialised
> 
> 
> 
> Anything that makes people aware how that India is not incredible and shining and that we are lucky to have Pakistan




Never mind, let them read the your so called statistics of jokers and laugh at your lack of Intellect!! 

On Topic -
Maulana predicted how Pakistan will look like and that is exactly how it is today.. Jinnah thought at least Muslims away from Hindus can live in peace but the thought itself badly badly failed.. Bangladesh is the past and today we see everyone vs Punjabi Muslim fights.. Come one, if you really respect Jinnah then drop all your hatred/weapons and start living in peace and let your minority live in peace as well.. Kidnapping and forcefully converted young girls is a horrendous crime for humanity but the way it happens in Pakistan it appears they consider it Allah's work..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rafi

Vinod2070 said:


> Why leave Pakistan and go to an *Islamophobe* country where you can't even integrate?



Who told you sonny, Azad was proven to be wrong, and the Quaid has proven to be right.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

EjazR said:


> *@Aryan_B*
> 
> The head of the largest Muhajir party in Pakistan Altaf Hussain has said partition was the biggest blunder in the history of Mankind.
> 
> .e



Altaf is a British agent living with the hospitality of MI6 in London. Clearly we need to distribute the Indian agency statistics along with UN agency statistics collated by our untouchable friend to all in MQM

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rafi

EjazR said:


> *@Aryan_B*
> 
> The head of the largest Muhajir party in Pakistan Altaf Hussain has said partition was the biggest blunder in the history of Mankind.
> 
> *If Col Elahi Bakhsh is to be believed *( he was the doctor looking after Jinnah towards his final days), then according to him Jinnah said more or less that although I have made Pakistan, I think I have made the biggest mistake of my life. And this was just before his death.
> 
> 
> The fact that you keep quoting a blogpost without actually communicating shows how insecure you are.
> 
> In any case, Pakistan is a reality and is not going anywhere. Try to actually follow what Jinnah said how he wanted relations with India (like US-Canada).
> 
> And do read my post and attached reference material
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154



This indian obsession with the independence of Pakistan is weird, it's happened - we are not going anywhere.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Rafi said:


> Who told you sonny, Azad was proven to be wrong, and the Quaid has proven to be right.



Thank you my brother did you read those statistics by that untouchable Indian about how bad thing are in India??

Did you thank Allah we are not part of that??

Did you appreciate the sacrifices our forefathers and the Quaid made to insure we were not part of the above

God that Azad bloke was so wrong but it is easy to say in hind site when you see these statistics

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## jbond197

Aryan_B said:


> If UK is as you state India is worse.



Oh, Did they stopped calling you with your special name in UK? Does that make them worse or better than India or even better than Pakistan - tell me? So why not give them a break and catch the next flight to your home country?? Also stop sending your kids to Pakistan for that special training..

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Rusty

Vinod2070 said:


> Why leave Pakistan and go to an *Islamophobe* country where you can't even integrate?



The same reason you people are still going to Australia even after they keep murdering you.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Rafi

Aryan_B said:


> Thank you my brother did you read those statistics by that untouchable Indian about how bad thing are in India??
> 
> Did you thank Allah we are not part of that??
> 
> Did you appreciate the sacrifices our forefathers and the Quaid made to insure we were not part of the above
> 
> God that Azad bloke was so wrong but it is easy to say in hind site when you see these statistics



I thank my forefathers every day, that I was made in Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

I would like to congratulate the Indians below who along with Pakistanis have succeeded in Leaving India. I wonder if Mr Azad ever though there would be such a massive exodus from India because things could or would get so bad in India


Maximum Indians get US citizenship after Mexicans in 2011
Washington, Apr 13 ,2012, (PTI) :
Indians were the second largest group of foreigners who obtained American citizenship in 2011, according to an official report.

After Mexico, India in 2011 was the second leading country of birth of new citizenship in the United States, the report released by the Department of Homeland Security said.

In 2011, as many as 694,193 persons obtained American citizenship.

The leading countries of birth of new citizens were Mexico (94,783), India (45,985), the Philippines (42,520), China (32,864) and Colombia (22,693), the report said.

The largest number of persons naturalising lived in California (151,183), Florida (87,309) and New York (76,603), it said.

Even though India retained its second spot, in actual figures the number of Indians who obtained American citizenship dropped over the past two years.

In 2012, as many as 61,142 Indians were naturalised, while in 2009 the figure was 52,889.

According to the report, 36 per cent of persons naturalising in 2011 were born in Asia, followed by 31 per cent from North America and 12 per cent from Europe.

Mexico was the leading country of birth of persons naturalising in 2011 (14 per cent).

The next leading countries of origin of new citizens in 2011 were India (6.6 per cent), the Philippines (6.1 per cent), the People's Republic of China (4.7 per cent) and Colombia (3.3 per cent).

The 10 countries with the largest number of naturalisations accounted for 48 per cent of all new citizens in 2011.

"From 2010 to 2011, the number of naturalisations increased among immigrants from all regions except Asia. 

The decrease in naturalisations of Asian-born persons during this period is partly due to a decline in the number of naturalisations of persons born in India and the People's Republic of China who were granted LPR status under employment-based preference categories," the report said.

The Department of Homeland Security said, until the 1970s, the majority of persons naturalising were born in European countries.

The regional origin of new citizens shifted from Europe to Asia due to increased legal immigration from Asian countries, the arrival of Indochinese refugees in the 1970s and the historically higher naturalisation rate of Asian immigrants.

Consequently, Asia has been the leading region of origin of new citizens in most years since 1976, it said.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fd24

jbond197 said:


> Never mind, let them read the your so called statistics of jokers and laugh at your lack of Intellect!!
> 
> On Topic -
> Maulana predicted how Pakistan will look like and that is exactly how it is today? Jinnah thought at least Muslims away from Hindus can live in peace but the thought itself badly badly failed.. Bangladesh is the past and today we everyone vs Punjabi Muslim fights.. Come one, if you really respect Jinnah then drop all your weapons and start living in peace and let your minority live in peace as well.. Kidnapping and forcefully converted young girls is a horrendous crime for humanity but the way it happens in Pakistan it appears they consider it Allah's work..



Never mind you not responding to the article - look at what the article content and then you cant dispute or comment on it so your logical approach is bury your head - this is normal Indian phobia.
On topic - before making comments about issues in our nation one would think you lived in a land of plenty and where everything is perfect. Are you blinded by whats in your own back garden? Forget minorities - look how you treat your fellow hindus and have a little think before commenting on your neighbors issue. Indians on this thread are quick to point and deflect rather than looking at yourselves - pathetic.
I think this has not become a Jinnah v A Kalan Azad issue - you guys have taken , like your normal obsessive nature leads you to an India V Pakistan issue. We are all patriotic and believe our house is in better order than any others - so either post something relevant to topic and cut the rubbish and enflaming material.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bang Galore

Vinod2070 said:


> ^^ Can't believe you actually took the trouble!



I can't believe I did either.....need to drink more beer & less of this awful stuff that some insist on providing here...

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## lem34

jbond197 said:


> Oh, Did they stopped calling you with your special name in UK? Does that make them worse or better than India or even better than Pakistan - tell me? So why not give them a break and catch the next flight to your home country?? Also stop sending your kids to Pakistan for that special training..



Listen mate you cant compare India to Pakistan and you now want to compare UK.

We have free universal healthcare aka NHS, you my lucky (lucky cos you escaped along with Pakistan from India) Indian friend

have this:


Health

India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India&#8217;s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.

107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.

There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.

Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]

*
Do you reckon Mr Azad thought about health issues when he was being self serving and wishing bad on Pakistan cos his vision had not come to be?*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

superkaif said:


> Never mind you not responding to the article - look at what the article content and then you cant dispute or comment on it so your logical approach is bury your head - this is normal Indian phobia.
> On topic - before making comments about issues in our nation one would think you lived in a land of plenty and where everything is perfect. Are you blinded by whats in your own back garden? Forget minorities - look how you treat your fellow hindus and have a little think befor commenting on your neighbors issue. Indians on this thread are quick to point and deflect rather than looking at yourselves - pathetic.
> I think this has not become a Jinnah v A Kalan Azad issue - you guys have taken , like your normal obsessive nature leads you to an India V Pakistan issue. We are all patriotic and believe our house is in better order than any others - so either post something relevant to topic and cut the rubbish and enflaming material.



Yaar they started it for 2 days I was restrained I did not want to show them the mirror but all they wanted was to discuss semantics with Oscar. These Indians cant handle the truth they can't handle the truth these statistics are from Indian agencies and UN agencies yet they will not look at them they were put together by an Indian untouchable who knows the suffering. These few internet warriors want to turn everything around to criticize Pakistan. I mean this Azad he was wrong, he failed he was an Indian Chamberlain but they want to make him a hero cos he made self serving statements knocking Pakistan and he was being a troll. They want a troll Azad as a hero

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EjazR

Aryan_B said:


> Altaf is a British agent living with the hospitality of MI6 in London. Clearly we need to distribute the Indian agency statistics along with UN agency statistics collated by our untouchable friend to all in MQM


 
When millions of Muhajirs in Karachi stop listening to him, then I will believe that he has no influence on MQM.

Until then, he is only one of the Pakistani who has said that.

And when are you going to respond to this post or have you accepted it?
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154


By the way, you know what is funny, Jinnah and Muslim League members just like their Hindu Mahasabha counter parts never spent any time in British Jails

On the other hand, Maulana Azad spent YEARS in jail under the British. Think about it before you disparage Maulana Azad as an Indian Chamberlain and who is really one.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## jbond197

superkaif said:


> Never mind you not responding to the article - look at what the article content and then you cant dispute or comment on it so your logical approach is bury your head - this is normal Indian phobia.
> 
> On topic - before making comments about issues in our nation one would think you lived in a land of plenty and where everything is perfect. Are you blinded by whats in your own back garden? Forget minorities - look how you treat your fellow hindus and have a little think befor commenting on your neighbors issue. Indians on this thread are quick to point and deflect rather than looking at yourselves - pathetic.
> 
> *I think this has not become a Jinnah v A Kalan Azad issue - you guys have taken , like your normal obsessive nature leads you to an India V Pakistan issue.* We are all patriotic and believe our house is in better order than any others - so either post something relevant to topic and cut the rubbish and enflaming material.



A lot of Indians have responded to that junk and to be honest it's not worth anybodies time except for Pakistanis desperately trying to justify their existence.. Isn't that an Indiaphobia for you guys?

It was perfectly Jinnah vs Azad debate before your Chacha Jaan(if that is not your duplicate id) jumped in with an open display of his lack of intellect with that stupid blog post of his.. Ask him to go through ruppeenews and he will find much more similar stupid Pakistani written articles up there. May be it will help him some how..

Bottom line is - If Jinnah was alive today then I am sure looking at the state of Pakistan he would have realized what a blunder of the mistake was Pakistan? 

Anyways I am not all concerned about you because that was one of the best thing that happened for India..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rafi

india needs to stop it's obsession with partition, it's 6 decades ago. 

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EjazR

Rafi said:


> This indian obsession with the independence of Pakistan is weird, it's happened - we are not going anywhere.



The fact that you have to rejoice on statistics in India which are admittedly bad by global standard but still BETTER than Pakistani stats to feel good that you are a Pakistani is weirder still.


And who is insecure about Pakistan is clear from what is being posted here.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> Do you reckon Mr Azad thought about health issues when he was being self serving and wishing bad on Pakistan cos his vision had not come to be?[/SIZE][/B]



What do you think about what Mr.Jinnah might have thought of so many of his countrymen wanting to flee his land & rush to where the virgins reside that they insist on taking other not so willing Pakistanis with them? Would probably have thought that he built the country in the wrong place.....

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Rafi

EjazR said:


> When millions of *Muhairs* in Karachi stop listening to him, then I will believe that he has no influence on MQM.
> 
> Until then, he is only one of the Pakistani who has said that.
> 
> And when are you going to respond to this post or have you accepted it?
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154
> 
> 
> By the way, you know what is funny, Jinnah and Muslim League members just like their Hindu Mahasabha counter parts never spent any time in British Jails
> 
> On the other hand, Maulana Azad spent YEARS in jail under the British. Think about it before you disparage Maulana Azad as an Indian Chamberlain and who is really one.



We don't have Muhairs in Karachi, we have many Urdu speaking brothers and sisters. 



EjazR said:


> The fact that you have to rejoice on statistics in India which are admittedly bad by global standard but still BETTER than Pakistani stats to feel good that you are a Pakistani is weirder still.
> 
> 
> And who is insecure about Pakistan is clear from what is being posted here.



No, the fact that you and your countrymen are here, day and night, shows who is insecure

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Bang Galore said:


> What do you think about what Mr.Jinnah might have thought of so many of his countrymen wanting to flee his land & rush to where the virgins reside that they insist on taking other not so willing Pakistanis with them? Would probably have thought that he built the country in the wrong place.....



You want to discuss the statistics or are you not allowed to look at and discuss statistics put together by an untouchable. We do not have this untouchable biz in Pakistan you know izen tit
I wonder if Mr Azad thought untouchables alongst with Muslims in India would be discriminated against so much

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## EjazR

Rafi said:


> india needs to stop it's obsession with partition, it's 6 decades ago.
> 
> PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


 
It wasn't an Indian who started this thread, it was a Pakistani.


@Aryan_B

The topic is the two telegrams that were exchanged between Maulana Azad and MA Jinnah. Not statistics in India and Pakistan today.
Still waiting for a response on this btw http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## lem34

*Now let us look at these untouchable Indians statistics that Mr Azad did not think of the non hero that Indians are trying to make a hero of. The failure and traitor that supported the enemies of his people and then wished bad on Pakistan and his people in his self serving trolling against Pakistan * 



Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to Indias politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the worlds hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. Indias Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. Indias rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under ALARMING category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the Indias planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Banks poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent  (and) consolidated fiscal deficit, says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that Indias GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysias $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are Other Backward Castes.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of Indias civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in Indias power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of Indias primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nations capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the worlds total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools dont have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of Indias schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, Indias spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of Indias GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of Indias GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to Indias national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber. says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an extensive surveillance society. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country consistently upholds human rights standards. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> Indias intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. Thats more than 70 %. Indias jails hold a disproportionate number of the countrys minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in Indias largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption. The State Department observes: There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths. Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. Others numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel  a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army dont allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of Indias urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India by the UNs special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. Its believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows  at least 40per cent are said to be under 50  are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehtas award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death  they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar, said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under Indias notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of Indias new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of Indias 602 districts  mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh  are badly affected by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as Maoist terror. Indias military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Armys budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by worlds weapon industry! India is now one of the worlds most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. Indias crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the countrys largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israels largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market, says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. Indias Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, Indias National Interest simply means their self Interest. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the worlds largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked worlds second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the worlds heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutvas security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nations land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the countrys 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesnt have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of Indias population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses  such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks  employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among Indias working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper,  says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhis image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capitals 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed crime capital of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> Indias share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEFs recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of developing and threshold countries, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesnt welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for red tapes and  corruption friendly service a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a hospitable country. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers  motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the worlds vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of Indias Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the countrys economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts Indias death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or invaders to India include few hired or weird Pakistani bombers, villagers around Indias border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is legally and morally fit to become Indias next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutvas fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by OutlookAC Nielsen shows that 46 % of Indias urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on National Pride of India?
> 
> India is the World Banks largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake India Shining propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britains aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality  of class, caste, wealth, religion  this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rafi

EjazR said:


> It wasn't an Indian who started this thread, it was a Pakistani.
> 
> 
> @Aryan_B
> 
> The topic is the two telegrams that were exchanged between Maulana Azad and MA Jinnah. Not statistics in India and Pakistan today.
> Still waiting for a response on this btw http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154



Yes, but who polluted it, the same indian hordes, self justifying themselves, to relieve their inferiority complex's

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

EjazR said:


> The topic is the two telegrams that were exchanged between Maulana Azad and MA Jinnah.



It was stupid to start a thread you can not seriously speak about that traitor Azad in the same thread as our Quaid.

One was a giant amongst men who created and succeeded in his vision that was Pakistan. the other made some self serving trolling statements about something which showed he had failed and been a traitor to his own

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fd24

jbond197 said:


> A lot of Indians have responded to that junk and to be honest it's not worth anybodies time except for Pakistanis desperately trying to justify their existence.. Isn't that an Indiaphobia for you guys?
> 
> It was perfectly Jinnah vs Azad debate before your Chacha Jaan(if that is not your duplicate id) jumped in with an open display of his lack of intellect with that stupid blog post of his.. Ask him to go through ruppeenews and he will find much more similar stupid Pakistani written articles up there. May be it will help him some how..
> 
> Bottom line is - If Jinnah was alive today then I am sure looking at the state of Pakistan he would have realized what a blunder of the mistake was Pakistan?
> 
> Anyways I am not all concerned about you because that was one of the best thing that happened for India..



You are a liar. A lot of Indians have come on here and avoided putting anything substantial on regarding the article - they avoid, deflect and slag it off as its the "indian way" - ignore the issues in your nation and point out others issues - making yourselves feel better - aaaaah Indian obsession at its supreme.
Secondly do you feel by sending personal insults you can defend the argument? Its another pathetic attempt - be on topic and stop polluting our site with personal attacks or you will be following your friend Nitin and be dressed in pink.
Finally what the heck are you going on and on about predicting what a man that passed away would think of our nation. In the same logic stance - wonder what Ghandi gee would think about the state of India - and how you treat dalits. Yet another pathetic argument.
Why cant we respectfully agree to differ. You have your opinion - we have ours. Lets leave it at that because if you keep throwing your liable to get a truck load thrown back. Pointless exercise

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Rafi said:


> Yes, but who polluted it, the same indian hordes, self justifying themselves, to relieve their inferiority complex's



man I waited two days before I started showing these Indians the mirror. They were enjoying knocking Pakistan with that troll Azad biz. Then last night they started swearing at me for no reason but suggesting that it was not fair that they just knock Pakistan they should take a look at what we have left what is not incredible not shining India

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rafi

superkaif said:


> You are a liar. A lot of Indians have come on here and avoided putting anything substantial on regarding the article - they avoid, deflect and slag it off as its the "indian way" - ignore the issues in your nation and point out others issues - making yourselves feel better - aaaaah Indian obsession at its supreme.
> Secondly do you feel by sending personal insults you can defend the argument? Its another pathetic attempt - be on topic and stop polluting our site with personal attacks or you will be following your friend Nitin and be dressed in pink.
> Finally what the heck are you going on and on about predicting what a man that passed away would think of our nation. In the same logic stance - wonder what Ghandi gee would think about the state of India - and how you treat dalits. Yet another pathetic argument.
> Why cant we respectfully agree to differ. You have your opinion - we have ours. Lets leave it at that because if you keep throwing your liable to get a truck load thrown back. Pointless exercise



indians also need to ask themselves, what Gandhi thinks of modern india, regarding the Quaid - he is a hero - for what he achieved for our people, we have a country of our own.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> Yaar they started it for 2 days I was restrained I did not want to show them the mirror
> 
> 
> 
> Ya ya...we applaud you for your restraint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These Indians cant handle the truth they can't handle the truth these statistics are from Indian agencies and UN agencies yet they will not look at them they were put together by an Indian untouchable who knows the suffering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indian untouchable?? Yeah right, you probably met him. Btw, you could go to jail for calling someone an untouchable in India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean this Azad he was wrong, he failed he was an Indian Chamberlain but they want to make him a hero cos he made self serving statements knocking Pakistan and he was being a troll. They want a troll Azad as a hero
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is a hero for us, who gives a damn what you sorry chaps think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"I am proud of being an Indian. I am part of the indivisible unity that is Indian nationality. I am indispensable to this noble edifice and without me this splendid structure is incomplete. I am an essential element, which has gone to build India. I can never surrender this claim."
> Maulana Azad.
> *
> 
> *
> "I have no doubt that the establishment of this Institute will form a landmark in the progress of higher technological education and research in the country."
> Maulana Azad on setting up the IIT.*
> 
> "Maulana Azad is the most forceful, truthful, and fearless satyagrahi and fighter against oppression and injustice that I have come across". Mahatma Gandhi on Maulana Azad.
> 
> &#8220;He was forty at the time he was born&#8221;. Sarojini Naidu on Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.
> 
> "Though I am grateful to all my companions, I would like to mention especially Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, whose erudition has delighted me incredibly, and has sometimes overwhelmed me. In Azad along with the good qualities of the past, the graciousness, the deep learning and tolerance, there is a strange and unique mixture of the urges of today and the modern outlook". Jawaharlal Nehru on Maulana Azad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He spent a total of 11 years in jail means almost one six part of his whole life for the cause of India.
> 
> &#8226; Youngest and Longest serving Congress President in 1923 and form 1940-1946, 07 terms.
> 
> &#8226; Independent India&#8217;s First Education Minister and held the post until his death in 1958, for almost 11 years.
> 
> &#8226; From 1952 he also assumed charge of the Ministry of National Resources and Scientific Research.
> *
> &#8226; He appointed and established University Grant Commission (UGC) in 1953, Established Sahitya Academy in 1954, Established Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Kharagpur in 1951, Established Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Banglore. Established CSIR for scientific works*, Made Visva Bharati Santiniketan as a Central University in 1952, Established Central Institute of Education in 1947, Established Indian Academy of Dance, Drama and Music in 1953, Established Lalit Kala Academy in 1954, Established National Museum in 1947, Established All India Council for Teaching, Established Sangeet Natak Academy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These remain among India's top institutions.
> 
> *Yup, great he was!*
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## fd24

Rafi said:


> indians also need to ask themselves, what Gandhi thinks of modern india, regarding the Quaid - he is a hero - for what he achieved for our people, we have a country of our own.



Yaar - i dont understand. They get so touchy and like to discuss and rip issues in our land - granted there is issues. However one would deduce from their posts their land is "the land of plenty" and simply issue - free. 
They cant accept or respect a differing of opinion - they would rather go the Nitin way and get over excited and wear pink.
I accept Indians want to be patriotic and thats fine - wish they would not "big then selves up" by constantly raging about our issues. When you do bring the issues to thier attention - they start smoking.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bang Galore

superkaif said:


> wonder what *Ghandi gee* would think about the state of India



I was wondering when that facade of reasonableness would slip? *Deliberately distorting the name of Gandhi ji... why am I not surprised?*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Rafi

Bang Galore said:


> Aryan_B said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya ya...we applaud you for your restraint.
> 
> 
> 
> Indian untouchable?? Yeah right, you probably met him. Btw, you could go to jail for calling someone an untouchable in India.
> 
> 
> 
> He is a hero for us, who gives a damn what you sorry chaps think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These remain among India's top institutions.
> 
> *Yup great he was!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For you he was great, for us, he was another indian. Quaid was a true great.
> 
> *Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three. (Prof. Stanley Wolpert, Jinnah of Pakistan (1984).*
> 
> *Mr Jinnah, was great as a lawyer, once great as a Congressman, great as a leader of Muslims, great as a world politician and diplomat, and greatest of all as a man of action, By Mr. Jinnah's passing away, the world has lost one of the greatest statesmen and Pakistan its life-giver, philosopher and guide. (Surat Chandra Bose)*
> 
> *He set a great example to other statesmen to follow by his skill in negotiation, his integrity and his honesty. (Gordon Johnson, Director Center of South Asian Studies)*
> 
> H*e was] the originator of the dream that became Pakistan, architect of the State and father of the world's largest Muslim nation. Mr. Jinnah was the recipient of a devotion and loyalty seldom accord to any man. (Harry S Truman, US President)*
> 
> *Ali Jinnah is a constant source of inspiration for all those who are fighting against racial or group discrimination.' (Nelson Mandela had come to Islamabad in 1995 and had insisted on including Karachi as a destination to visit Jinnah's Grave and his house in Karachi where upon reaching he drove straight to the Quaid's Mazar) At another occasion while addressing the ANC Mandela mentioned three names Ali Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru as sources of inspiration for the movement against apartheid.' (Nelson Mandela, Ex-South African President)*
> 
> *a sincerity of purpose and the lasting charm of a character animated by a brave conception of duty and an austere and lovely code of private honour and public integrity... Tall and stately, but thin to the point of emaciation, languid and luxurious of habit, Mohammad Ali Jinnah's attenuated form is a deceptive sheath of a spirit of exceptional vitality and endurance. Somewhat formal and fastidious, and a little aloof and imperious of manner, the calm hauteur of his accustomed reserve but masks, for those who know him, a naive and eager humanity, an intuition quick and tender as a woman's, a humour gay and winning as a child's. Pre-eminently rational and practical, discreet and dispassionate in his estimate and acceptance of life, the obvious sanity and serenity of his worldly wisdom effectually disguise a shy and splendid idealism which is of the very essence of the man. (Sarojini Naidu, Advocate of Hindu Muslim Unity)*
> 
> *'Jinnah is Incorruptible and Brave' (Gandhi - Interview with Louis Fischer)*
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Bang Galore said:


> Aryan_B said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya ya...we applaud you for your restraint.
> 
> 
> 
> I
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop being sarcastic Indian you lot don't deserve a gentleman like Oscar to have discussions with. He should discuss that with Indians deserving that like Joe Shearer not trolls who swear and thank for no reason
> 
> 
> 
> Bang Galore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aryan_B said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indian untouchable?? Yeah right, you probably met him. Btw, you could go to jail for calling someone an untouchable in India.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indians don't give a damn about laws you say you are secular in your constitution yet you allow massacres of Muslims. That untouchable Indian told us how you treat Dalits rape and hurt them all the time.
> 
> Do you think that traitor Azad to his people hero to his peoples enemies realised you would make laws and then not enforce them??
> 
> Discrimination in Judiciary
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> Stop being sarcastic Indian you lot don't deserve a gentleman like Oscar to have discussions with. He should discuss that with Indians deserving that like Joe Shearer not trolls who swear and thank for no reason



Were you talking to me or holding a conversation with the mirror? Gentlemen like Oscar wouldn't need terrible doormen like you, Go scare someone else, I'm not impressed.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lem34

Bang Galore said:


> He is a hero for us, who gives a damn what you sorry chaps think?



He was a traitor to his own people. We think some Khalistanis are hero's izent tit. One mans terrorist is another's freedomfighter. Point is he was a muslim and you Hindus think he was a hero  Pakistani Muslims think the Quaid was a hero amongst average group of Indian leaders

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> He was a traitor to his own people.



Fundamental difference. *All Indians were his own people,* unlike others.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lem34

Bang Galore said:


> Were you talking to me or holding a conversation with the mirror? Gentlemen like Oscar wouldn't need terrible doormen like you, Go scare someone else, I'm not impressed.



Go get some sleep Indian. Whilst I show some statistics to Pakistanis so they are even more proud of the Quaid and thank his vision and work were not down the toilet compared to that traitor Azad

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rafi

Aryan_B said:


> Go get some sleep Indian. Whilst I show some statistics to Pakistanis so they are even more proud of the Quaid and thank his vision and work were not down the toilet compared to that traitor Azad



The Quaid changed the map of the world, azad did what he did, not much people outside india, know he exists.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Rafi said:


> The Quaid changed the map of the world, azad did what he did, not much people outside india, know he exists.



every nation has its quislings. Indians love Muslim traitors. It is an insult to our great Quaid that we even compare the two

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## EjazR

@Indian Members,

Stop feeding Aryan_B

He obviously can't respond to my post here http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154

This shows that he has accepted defeat. 

The fact that Jinnah had expensive bungalows, drank wine and secretly communicated with Churchill while Maulana Azad spent 11 years in British jails is enough to show who is a traitor.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Bang Galore

Aryan_B said:


> Go get some sleep Indian. Whilst I show some statistics to Pakistanis so they are even more proud of the Quaid and thank his vision and work were not down the toilet compared to that traitor Azad




Traitor this, that & the other. Pretty much proves your absolute inability to have a civil discussion. Ya, will go sleep while u stare down the toilet at someone's vision.............

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Rafi

The Quaid was a giant among-st men, he radically changed the history of the world, with the force of his personality, and that through negotiations with the indians and British as his enemies. 

His achievements will be remembered as long as human beings walk this earth. 

Even people who hate him, respect his nature.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bang Galore

Rafi said:


> Even people who hate him, respect his nature.



Says more about the people who _"hate" _him than anything else since many Pakistanis can never seem to rustle up the same decency to reciprocate those sentiments about others.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Rafi

Bang Galore said:


> Says more about the people who _"hate" _him than anything else since many Pakistanis can never seem to rustle up the same decency to reciprocate those sentiments about others.



I as a Pakistani respect Gandhi, though I disagree with his ideas about South Asia, but he was human, and had human fallacies.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Pakistanis I do not care what the Indian troll brigade thinks. Two days I was civil I didn't the show the mirror to them but they continuously showed the worst of Pakistan to justify that this traitor Azad who achieved nothing was a hero and could be compared to our greatest leader. Then these baskets started swearing at me for showing restraint.

Well enjoy despite Pakistan's shortcomings of which there are many we are not part of this. read it learn it off by heart they are statistics which prove what India is about. repeat these statistics throw them and use them against the Hindutva brigade to humiliate them to tell the who was a hero and who as in Azad's case was a traitor to his people. Hindus can not change that no matter how much they elevate him.

Show these incredible statistics to all and sundry in the world who think India is incredible and shining which were compiled by a hero untouchable Indian to expose them for what they are he is a hero not Azad

A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Rafi

Aryan_B said:


> Pakistanis I do not care what the Indian troll brigade thinks. Two days I was civil I didn't the show the mirror to them but they continuously showed the worst of Pakistan to justify that this traitor Azad who achieved nothing was a hero and could be compared to our greatest leader. Then these baskets started swearing at me for showing restraint.
> 
> Well enjoy despite Pakistan's shortcomings of which there are many we are not part of this. read it learn it off by heart they are statistics which prove what India is about. repeat these statistics throw them and use them against the Hindutva brigade to humiliate them to tell the who was a hero and who as in Azad's case was a traitor to his people. Hindus can not change that no matter how much they elevate him.
> 
> Show these incredible statistics to all and sundry in the world who think India is incredible and shining which were compiled by a hero untouchable Indian to expose them for what they are he is a hero not Azad
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India



Aryan B - I admire your patriotism, full respect from a fellow warrior.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## anathema

Aryan - 

Are you releasing how big of a joke you are becoming ? You are harping about a blog post - which has been trashed out here ..i mean seriously trashed out here yet you are posting the same old stuff...Grow some stuff man...
Please do respond in a way that atleast doesnt show how immature you are..

Anyways waiting for your response to Ejaz..OR are you planning to convieniently side step and post that Blog entry of yours ..

On a second note - Somebody recently created thread about you hitting 10K posts..Planning to hit 20K soon i see....

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## notsuperstitious

So the british agent Maulana Azad spent 11 years in british jails and the giant freedom fighter and secularist jinnah spent none and defended ilm ud din!!!

Isn't pakistani education system epic? What bolsters jinnahs anti imperialist credentials is that his creation, within three years of getting the first constitution was allowing CIA flights from peshawar!!!

What's truly incredible is that EVEN this the great leader Maulana Azad had predicted!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## MilSpec

Rafi said:


> The Quaid was a giant among-st men, he radically changed the history of the world, with the force of his personality, and that through negotiations with the indians and British as his enemies.
> 
> His achievements will be remembered as long as human beings walk this earth.
> 
> Even people who hate him, respect his nature.






El jefe, 



It's a shame that this thread became a mudslinging competition.

In my humblest opinion , the reason for India and Pakistan not being even close to the vision the patriots who laid down their lives is due to the success of two nation theory. 

We know Jinnah and Nehru were right in thier own way. Both pakistan and India are prospering nation with enough power to make the rest of the world to take notice, so both have done relatively well for themselves. 

Pakistans political failure was zero political leadership after Jinnah

India's political failure was absence of any substantial opposition to indian national congress

Mualana: may be maulana was right, if two countires remained together, both could have kept each other in check, maybe nations could have prospered or , mabe he was extremely wrong and we would be plunged into a civil war. 

Maulana theory was noble, the concept of communal harmony that he advocated nearly transcended reliogion and embraces a higher level of spiritualism viewing every one with the same respect and honor irrespective of caste creed race religion or color. 

So to prove that visionary leader like jinnah was great, there is no need to sling mud on maulana azad. There is enormous moral bankruptcy in both the nations, hence it will be impossible to actually comprehend the vision of the Maulana!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

Rusty said:


> The same reason you people are still going to Australia even after they keep murdering you.


 
I know, a few criminal incidents long back have got many of you permanently in a state of excitement. 

Even when the drone buzzes above, you think of those handful small time crimes.

But how does that justify the reverse hizarat?

From dar-ul-Islam to dar-ul-harb!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

anathema said:


> Aryan -
> 
> Are you releasing how big of a joke you are becoming ? You are harping about a blog post - which has been trashed out here ..i mean seriously trashed out here yet you are posting the same old stuff....



this a habit of you Indians to knock the source. Look at the references all the statistics are from either the Indian Govt or from reliable internationally recognised agencies like the UN. It has not been trashed. How do you trash the truth. Statistics from your own govt from the UN. Indians crying and trolling does not equate to trashing. Anyway I care what Rafi thinks, I care what Pakistanis think not you or your fellow Indians

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rafi

sandy_3126 said:


> El jefe,
> 
> 
> 
> It's a shame that this thread became a mudslinging competition.
> 
> In my humblest opinion , the reason for India and Pakistan not being even close to the vision the patriots who laid down their lives is due to the success of two nation theory.
> 
> We know Jinnah and Nehru were right in thier own way. Both pakistan and India are prospering nation with enough power to make the rest of the world to take notice, so both have done relatively well for themselves.
> 
> Pakistans political failure was zero political leadership after Jinnah
> 
> India's political failure was absence of any substantial opposition to indian national congress
> 
> Mualana: may be maulana was right, if two countires remained together, both could have kept each other in check, maybe nations could have prospered or , mabe he was extremely wrong and we would be plunged into a civil war.
> 
> Maulana theory was noble, the concept of communal harmony that he advocated nearly transcended reliogion and embraces a higher level of spiritualism viewing every one with the same respect and honor irrespective of caste creed race religion or color.
> 
> So to prove that visionary leader like jinnah was great, there is no need to sling mud on maulana azad. There is enormous moral bankruptcy in both the nations, hence it will be impossible to actually comprehend the vision of the Maulana!



I think M A is seen in the prism of opposing our independence, that will color Pakistani views on him.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ignited Mind

Bang Galore said:


> Traitor this, that & the other. Pretty much proves your absolute inability to have a civil discussion. Ya, will go sleep while u stare down the toilet at someone's vision.............


 


EjazR said:


> @Indian Members,
> 
> Stop feeding Aryan_B
> 
> He obviously can't respond to my post here http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154
> 
> This shows that he has accepted defeat.
> 
> The fact that Jinnah had expensive bungalows, drank wine and secretly communicated with Churchill while Maulana Azad spent 11 years in British jails is enough to show who is a traitor.


 


EjazR said:


> This telegram is a perfect example of what we call attacking the character of a person rather than discuss the issue. Look at the language used against leader of the largest national party of India at that time and one of the most important Muslim leaders as well. Can anyone consider it respectable? Of course not.
> 
> Any sane person will recognize how unreasonable Jinnah had become in this telegram and how he had started using Islam and Muslim as a political tool.Muslims rights wasn't an issue anymore, but his own political victory. It didn't matter if Maulana Azad was an Islamic scholar and came from a long family of Islamic scholars and was born in Mecca. Neither did it matter that Jinnah was a grandson of a Hindu Poonja Gokuldas Meghji (same as caste as Gandhi apparently), drank alcohol and had no idea about the basics of Islam
> 
> *Might I use this as an example for non-Muslim members to learn from this* and not have a knee-jerk reaction that a clean shave win sipping Pakistani(or any other nationalist) can be an political Islamist who really has nothing to do with Islam itself and hardly practices it. On the other hand, you can have a Pakistani with a beard and turban who prays 5 times a day and practice Islam in his lives who will be more tolerant and reasonable. Same applies to other religions of course.
> 
> 
> The reason for Jinnah to respond with a character attack on Maulana Azad rather than address the issue in his telegram was simple, Jinnah could not win a direct argument on Muslim rights on this issue. He was under the instructions from Churchill to not compromise and insist on declaring Congress as a Hindu only party. (as disclosed by his secret correspondence and his willingness to provide Pakistan as a pawn in the new great game (Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan))
> 
> And what an excellent strategic tool Pakistan was for the west. Right from the 1950s, U2 spy planes were flying from Pakistan over the USSR. It joined CENTO and SEATO pacts. In the 1980s, it worked with US and Saudi Arabia to pervert and poison Islamic doctrines and the concept of Jihad for which Muslims around the world including within Pakistan are facing the consequences of today. Even leaving aside that some of the biggest slaughter of Muslims wether in East Pakistan or in Jordan during the Black September was done under the Pakistani Army command. Hence making Pakistan probably the biggest liability to the Islamic world according to some.
> 
> What is funny is that Muslim League never had majority support in present day Pakistan itself. In NWFP the Congress was a majority. Punjab, the unionist and Congress party had a majority. In Sindh, it was only with the support of the British members of the assembly that Muslim league could come to power. And even then the Sindh Muslim league members soon after independance realised the mistake they had done.
> 
> Read GM Syed, the person who had worked day and night to build up Muslim Leauge and what he had to say about this here The Caseof Sindh - G.M. Syed&#8217;s deposition in court (Part 1)
> 
> Also Khan Abdul Wali Khan, the son of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan and one of the most famous and revered pashtoon in modern times on both sides of the Durand line. Not to mention in India as well. Facts Are Sacred by Wali Khan
> 
> I request people who truly want to understand what was happening in the then North West India to read through both the links. I would particularly request Indians to read this as well.
> 
> Both of these people were giants in their provinces. While Wali Khan and GM Syed had regional stature, Bacha Khan of course had national - even International stature. And the sad thing is that all these personalities were jailed for decades in "independent" Pakistan and even today are not honored for their contribution to independence.


 


EjazR said:


> *@Aryan_B*
> 
> The head of the largest Muhajir party in Pakistan Altaf Hussain has said partition was the biggest blunder in the history of Mankind.
> 
> *If Col Elahi Bakhsh is to be believed *( he was the doctor looking after Jinnah towards his final days), then according to him Jinnah said more or less that although I have made Pakistan, I think I have made the biggest mistake of my life. And this was just before his death.
> 
> 
> The fact that you keep quoting a blogpost without actually communicating shows how insecure you are.
> 
> In any case, Pakistan is a reality and is not going anywhere. Try to actually follow what Jinnah said how he wanted relations with India (like US-Canada).
> 
> And do read my post and attached reference material
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154


 


EjazR said:


> When millions of Muhajirs in Karachi stop listening to him, then I will believe that he has no influence on MQM.
> 
> Until then, he is only one of the Pakistani who has said that.
> 
> And when are you going to respond to this post or have you accepted it?
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154
> 
> 
> By the way, you know what is funny, Jinnah and Muslim League members just like their Hindu Mahasabha counter parts never spent any time in British Jails
> 
> On the other hand, Maulana Azad spent YEARS in jail under the British. Think about it before you disparage Maulana Azad as an Indian Chamberlain and who is really one.


 


EjazR said:


> It wasn't an Indian who started this thread, it was a Pakistani.
> 
> 
> @Aryan_B
> 
> The topic is the two telegrams that were exchanged between Maulana Azad and MA Jinnah. Not statistics in India and Pakistan today.
> Still waiting for a response on this btw http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...2476-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-18.html#post2818154


 


Bang Galore said:


> Aryan_B said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya ya...we applaud you for your restraint.
> 
> 
> 
> Indian untouchable?? Yeah right, you probably met him. Btw, you could go to jail for calling someone an untouchable in India.
> 
> 
> 
> He is a hero for us, who gives a damn what you sorry chaps think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These remain among India's top institutions.
> 
> *Yup, great he was!*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Those are some of the best posts I've read on PDF after a long long time.
> 
> Thanks guys. You are the one who make the shyt at PDF bearable.*
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

fateh71 said:


> So the british agent Maulana Azad spent 11 years in british jails and the giant freedom fighter and secularist jinnah spent none and defended ilm ud din!!!
> 
> Isn't pakistani education system epic? What bolsters jinnahs anti imperialist credentials is that his creation, within three years of getting the first constitution was allowing CIA flights from peshawar!!!
> 
> What's truly incredible is that EVEN this the great leader Maulana Azad had predicted!!!



I went through the education system in the UK. But I was taught how to recognise a quisling one that was a traitor to his own You see fateh you can say he was a god. But it don't make any difference, We Pakistani Muslims matter cos he was one of us a Muslim. Do if Pakistani Muslims think the Quaid was a hero to his people that is true. We cannot say the same about Azad. You lauding Azad cannot change that. We could and we would be right to call your greatest traitor as a hero get it izen tit lol



Ignited Mind said:


> Bang Galore said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Those are some of the best posts I've read on PDF after a long long time.
> 
> Thanks guys. You are the one who make the shyt at PDF bearable.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one is forcing you. Only your obsession with Pakistan. Go shoo go away Indian go back to that that place described so accurately by you untouchable compatriot
> 
> For Pakistanis you decide would Azad have talked the way he did if he saw this:
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ignited Mind

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !


*
If I were a teacher, that's exactly how I'd NOT want my students to reply to a perfectly civil letter. 

I wouldn't want my students to come across as rude and incapable of a civil discourse. 

This is a perfect example. PERFECT EXAMPLE of how you DO NOT reply to a civil letter

THIS IS NOT A REPLY, IT'S A PERSONAL ATTACK. *

BTW, why did Jinnah not reply for nearly 7 months?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

*
Back to the black board Azad did not have the information below. had he had this information he would have bowed to our Quaid. Pakistanis pay attention to those stats and thank God we left India behind 
*

When will you Indians learn you cant hide what is India by knocking Pakistan


Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to Indias politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the worlds hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. Indias Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. Indias rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under ALARMING category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the Indias planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Banks poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent  (and) consolidated fiscal deficit, says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that Indias GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysias $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are Other Backward Castes.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of Indias civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in Indias power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of Indias primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nations capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the worlds total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools dont have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of Indias schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, Indias spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of Indias GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of Indias GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to Indias national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber. says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an extensive surveillance society. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country consistently upholds human rights standards. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> Indias intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. Thats more than 70 %. Indias jails hold a disproportionate number of the countrys minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in Indias largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption. The State Department observes: There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths. Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. Others numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel  a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army dont allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of Indias urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India by the UNs special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. Its believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows  at least 40per cent are said to be under 50  are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehtas award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death  they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar, said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under Indias notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of Indias new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of Indias 602 districts  mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh  are badly affected by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as Maoist terror. Indias military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Armys budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by worlds weapon industry! India is now one of the worlds most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. Indias crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the countrys largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israels largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market, says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. Indias Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, Indias National Interest simply means their self Interest. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the worlds largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked worlds second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the worlds heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutvas security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nations land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the countrys 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesnt have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of Indias population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses  such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks  employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among Indias working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper,  says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhis image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capitals 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed crime capital of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> Indias share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEFs recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of developing and threshold countries, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesnt welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for red tapes and  corruption friendly service a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a hospitable country. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers  motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the worlds vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of Indias Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the countrys economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts Indias death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or invaders to India include few hired or weird Pakistani bombers, villagers around Indias border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is legally and morally fit to become Indias next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutvas fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by OutlookAC Nielsen shows that 46 % of Indias urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on National Pride of India?
> 
> India is the World Banks largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake India Shining propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britains aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality  of class, caste, wealth, religion  this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India





Ignited Mind said:


> *
> If I were a teacher, that's exactly how I'd NOT want my students to reply to a perfectly civil letter.
> 
> I wouldn't want my students to come across as rude and incapable of a civil discourse.
> 
> This is a perfect example. PERFECT EXAMPLE of how you DO NOT reply to a civil letter
> 
> THIS IS NOT A REPLY, IT'S A PERSONAL ATTACK. *
> 
> BTW, why did Jinnah not reply for nearly 7 months?



How do you expect a great leader to speak to what was amongst his own a traitor but a hero to enemy Hindus of his people

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

Man, someone has gone berserk. 

What can identity crisis do to some!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Ignited Mind

*Something that Maulana Azad knew, something even Pakistanis acknowledge today:
*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Hi sandy 3126 did you enjoy thanking that troll who swore at me for no reason last night. enjoy these statistics from your untouchable dalit not brother

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ignited Mind

Vinod2070 said:


> Man, someone has gone berserk.
> 
> What can identity crisis do to some!



*Put them on your ignore list. You can't help them. The only person you can help is yourself. So, have mercy on yourself and put the trolls on your ignore list. *

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> *
> Back to the black board Azad did not have the information below. had he had this information he would have bowed to our Quaid. Pakistanis pay attention to those stats and thank God we left India behind
> *
> 
> When will you Indians learn you cant hide what is India by knocking Pakistan
> Originally Posted by Aryan_B
> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> Non Resident Indian Population around the globe
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to India&#8217;s politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> Poverty Graph
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the world&#8217;s hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. India&#8217;s Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. India&#8217;s rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under &#8220;ALARMING&#8221; category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India&#8217;s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank&#8217;s poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> 
> The Current Account Balance of India
> 
> &#8220;A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent &#8230; (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,&#8221; says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> Human Development vs GDP growth
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that India&#8217;s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysia&#8217;s $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are &#8220;Other Backward Castes&#8221;.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India&#8217;s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in India&#8217;s power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of India&#8217;s primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> Living conditions of Indians
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation&#8217;s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> Education
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the world&#8217;s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools don&#8217;t have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of India&#8217;s schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> Health
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India&#8217;s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India&#8217;s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India&#8217;s GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to India&#8217;s national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> 
> Corruption
> 
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. &#8220;Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber.&#8221; says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> Discrimination against Dalits
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> Human Rights
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an &#8216;extensive surveillance society&#8217;. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country &#8220;consistently upholds human rights standards&#8221;. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> India&#8217;s intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. That&#8217;s more than 70 %. India&#8217;s jails hold a disproportionate number of the country&#8217;s minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in India&#8217;s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, &#8220;Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption.&#8221; The State Department observes: &#8220;There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths.&#8221; Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> Minorities
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. &#8220;Others&#8221; numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, &#8220;The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc&#8221;.
> 
> Discrimination against Minority Muslims
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel &#8212; a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims&#8217; 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don&#8217;t allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, &#8216;there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.&#8217;
> 
> Discrimination in Media
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> 
> Discrimination in Judiciary
> 
> India&#8217;s subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from &#8220;through a shrewd process of manipulation&#8221;. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. &#8220;This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged&#8221;. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> Discrimination against Children
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of India&#8217;s urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report &#8216;Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India&#8217; by the UN&#8217;s special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> Discrimination against Women
> 
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It&#8217;s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows &#8211; at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 &#8211; are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta&#8217;s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death &#8211; they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> 
> Fetus Killing
> 
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> Human Trafficking
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar,&#8217; said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> High Crime Rate and Communal Riots
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under India&#8217;s notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> Economic Crimes
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers&#8217; India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> Armed Conflicts in India
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> &#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> 
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nation&#8217;s land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> Unemployment
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country&#8217;s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn&#8217;t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of India&#8217;s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses &#8212; such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks &#8212; employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India&#8217;s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> 
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper, &#8221; says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhi&#8217;s image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capital&#8217;s 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed &#8216;crime capital&#8217; of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> India, a closed country
> 
> India&#8217;s share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEF&#8217;s recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of &#8216;developing and threshold countries&#8217;, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesn&#8217;t welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for &#8216;red tapes&#8216; and &#8216; corruption friendly service&#8216; a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a &#8220;hospitable country&#8221;. ASSOCHAM
> 
> Global Warming effects in India
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> Transportation
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers &#8211; motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the world&#8217;s vehicle population.
> 
> Road Safety
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of India&#8217;s Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the country&#8217;s economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts India&#8217;s death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> Doing Business in India
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> 
> Foreigners Living in India
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or &#8216;invaders&#8217; to India include few &#8216;hired or weird&#8217; Pakistani bombers, villagers around India&#8217;s border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is &#8216;legally and morally fit&#8217; to become India&#8217;s next Prime Minister.
> 
> Quit India!
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> 
> Hindutva&#8217;s fake National Pride on India
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by Outlook&#8212;AC Nielsen shows that 46 % of India&#8217;s urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on &#8220;National Pride of India&#8221;?
> 
> India is the World Bank&#8217;s largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake &#8216;India Shining&#8217; propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britain&#8217;s aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality &#8211; of class, caste, wealth, religion &#8211; this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> 
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Come on naughty Indian trolls look at shining Incredible India. Why are you trying to leave this behind like we did many years ago but trying to justify that one man Azad a traitor to his own who if he had these figures would maybe have come to a different conclusion

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ignited Mind

*April 1946 interview with Maulana Abul Kalam Azad - the man who knew the future*


Congress president Maulana Abul Kalam Azad gave the following interview to journalist Shorish Kashmiri for a Lahore based Urdu magazine, Chattan, in April 1946. It was a time when the Cabinet Mission was holding its proceedings in Delhi and Simla. Azad made some startling predictions during the course of the interview, saying that religious conflict would tear apart Pakistan and its eastern half would carve out its own future. He even said that Pakistan's incompetent rulers might pave the way for military rule.

According to Shorish Kashmiri, Azad had earmarked the early hours of the morning for him and the interview was conducted over a period of two weeks. This interview has not been published in any book so far -- neither in the Azad centenary volumes nor in any other book comprising his writing or speeches -- except for Kashmiri's own book Abul Kalam Azad, which was printed only once by Matbooat Chattan Lahore, a now-defunct publishing house. Former Union Cabinet Minister Arif Mohammed Khan discovered the book after searching for many years and translated the interview for Covert magazine.

The Hindu Muslim dispute has become so acute that it has foreclosed any possibility of reconciliation. Don't you think that in this situation the birth of Pakistan has become inevitable?

If Pakistan were the solution of Hindu Muslim problem, then I would have extended my support to it. A section of Hindu opinion is now turning in its favour. By conceding NWFP, Sind, Balochistan and half of Punjab on one side and half of Bengal on the other, they think they will get the rest of India -- a huge country that would be free from any claims of communal nature. If we use the Muslim League terminology, this new India will be a Hindu state both practically and temperamentally. This will not happen as a result of any conscious decision, but will be a logical consequence of its social realities. How can you expect a society that consists 90% of Hindus, who have lived with their ethos and values since prehistoric times, to grow differently?

The factors that laid the foundation of Islam in Indian society and created a powerful following have become victim of the politics of partition. The communal hatred it has generated has completely extinguished all possibilities of spreading and preaching Islam. This communal politics has hurt the religion beyond measure. Muslims have turned away from the Quran. If they had taken their lessons from the Quran and the life of the holy Prophet and had not forged communal politics in the name of religion then Islam's growth would not have halted. By the time of the decline of the Mughal rule, the Muslims in India were a little over 22.5 million, that is about 65% of the present numbers. Since then the numbers kept increasing. If the Muslim politicians had not used the offensive language that embittered communal relations, and the other section acting as agents of British interests had not worked to widen the Hindu-Muslim breach, the number of Muslims in India would have grown higher.

The political disputes we created in the name of religion have projected Islam as an instrument of political power and not what it is -- a value system meant for the transformation of human soul. Under British influence, we turned Islam into a confined system, and following in the footsteps of other communities like Jews, Parsis and Hindus we transformed ourselves into a hereditary community. The Indian Muslims have frozen Islam and its message and divided themselves into many sects. Some sects were clearly born at the instance of colonial power. Consequently, these sects became devoid of all movement and dynamism and lost faith in Islamic values. The hallmark of Muslim existence was striving and now the very term is strange to them. Surely they are Muslims, but they follow their own whims and desires. In fact now they easily submit to political power, not to Islamic values. They prefer the religion of politics not the religion of the Quran. Pakistan is a political standpoint. Regardless of the fact whether it is the right solution to the problems of Indian Muslims, it is being demanded in the name of Islam. The question is when and where Islam provided for division of territories to settle populations on the basis of belief and unbelief. Does this find any sanction in the Quran or the traditions of the holy Prophet? Who among the scholars of Islam has divided the dominion of God on this basis? If we accept this division in principle, how shall we reconcile it with Islam as a universal system? How shall we explain the ever growing Muslim presence in non-Muslim lands including India? Do they realise that if Islam had approved this principle then it would not have permitted its followers to go to the non-Muslim lands and many ancestors of the supporters of Pakistan would not have had even entered the fold of Islam? Division of territories on the basis of religion is a contraption devised by Muslim League. They can pursue it as their political agenda, but it finds no sanction in Islam or Quran. What is the cherished goal of a devout Muslim? Spreading the light of Islam or dividing territories along religious lines to pursue political ambitions?

The demand for Pakistan has not benefited Muslims in any manner. How Pakistan can benefit Islam is a moot question and will largely depend on the kind of leadership it gets. The impact of western thought and philosophy has made the crisis more serious. The way the leadership of Muslim League is conducting itself will ensure that Islam will become a rare commodity in Pakistan and Muslims in India. This is a surmise and God alone knows what is in the womb of future. Pakistan, when it comes into existence, will face conflicts of religious nature. As far as I can see, the people who will hold the reins of power will cause serious damage to Islam. Their behaviour may result in the total alienation of the Pakistani youth who may become a part of non-religious movements. Today, in Muslim minority states the Muslim youth are more attached to religion than in Muslim majority states. You will see that despite the increased role of Ulema, the religion will lose its sheen in Pakistan.






But many Ulema are with Quaid-e-Azam [M.A. Jinnah].

Many Ulema were with Akbare Azam too; they invented a new religion for him. Do not discuss individuals. Our history is replete with the doings of the Ulema who have brought humiliation and disgrace to Islam in every age and period. The upholders of truth are exceptions. How many of the Ulema find an honourable mention in the Muslim history of the last 1300 years? There was one Imam Hanbal, one Ibn Taimiyya. In India we remember no Ulema except Shah Waliullah and his family. The courage of Alf Sani is beyond doubt, but those who filled the royal office with complaints against him and got him imprisoned were also Ulema. Where are they now? Does anybody show any respect to them?

Maulana, what is wrong if Pakistan becomes a reality? After all, "Islam" is being used to pursue and protect the unity of the community.

You are using the name of Islam for a cause that is not right by Islamic standards. Muslim history bears testimony to many such enormities. In the battle of Jamal [fought between Imam Ali and Hadrat Aisha, widow of the holy Prophet] Qurans were displayed on lances. Was that right? In Karbala the family members of the holy Prophet were martyred by those Muslims who claimed companionship of the Prophet. Was that right? Hajjaj was a Muslim general and he subjected the Holy Mosque at Makka to brutal attack. Was that right? No sacred words can justify or sanctify a false motive.

If Pakistan was right for Muslims then I would have supported it. But I see clearly the dangers inherent in the demand. I do not expect people to follow me, but it is not possible for me to go against the call of my conscience. People generally submit either to coercion or to the lessons of their experience. Muslims will not hear anything against Pakistan unless they experience it. Today they can call white black, but they will not give up Pakistan. The only way it can be stopped now is either for the government not to concede it or for Mr Jinnah himself -- if he agrees to some new proposal.
Now as I gather from the attitude of my own colleagues in the working committee, the division of India appears to be certain. But I must warn that the evil consequences of partition will not affect India alone, Pakistan will be equally haunted by them. The partition will be based on the religion of the population and not based on any natural barrier like mountain, desert or river. A line will be drawn; it is difficult to say how durable it would be.

We must remember that an entity conceived in hatred will last only as long as that hatred lasts. This hatred will overwhelm the relations between India and Pakistan. In this situation it will not be possible for India and Pakistan to become friends and live amicably unless some catastrophic event takes place. The politics of partition itself will act as a barrier between the two countries. It will not be possible for Pakistan to accommodate all the Muslims of India, a task beyond her territorial capability. On the other hand, it will not be possible for the Hindus to stay especially in West Pakistan. They will be thrown out or leave on their own. This will have its repercussions in India and the Indian Muslims will have three options before them:

1. They become victims of loot and brutalities and migrate to Pakistan; but how many Muslims can find shelter there?

2. They become subject to murder and other excesses. A substantial number of Muslims will pass through this ordeal until the bitter memories of partition are forgotten and the generation that had lived through it completes its natural term.

3. A good number of Muslims, haunted by poverty, political wilderness and regional depredation decide to renounce Islam.

The prominent Muslims who are supporters of Muslim League will leave for Pakistan. The wealthy Muslims will take over the industry and business and monopolise the economy of Pakistan. But more than 30 million Muslims will be left behind in India. What promise Pakistan holds for them? The situation that will arise after the expulsion of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan will be still more dangerous for them. Pakistan itself will be afflicted by many serious problems. The greatest danger will come from international powers who will seek to control the new country, and with the passage of time this control will become tight. India will have no problem with this outside interference as it will sense danger and hostility from Pakistan.

The other important point that has escaped Mr Jinnah's attention is Bengal. He does not know that Bengal disdains outside leadership and rejects it sooner or later. During World War II, Mr Fazlul Haq revolted against Jinnah and was thrown out of the Muslim League. Mr H. S. Suhrawardy does not hold Jinnah in high esteem. Why only Muslim League, look at the history of Congress. The revolt of Subhas Chandra Bose is known to all. Gandhiji was not happy with the presidentship of Bose and turned the tide against him by going on a fast unto death at Rajkot. Subhas Bose rose against Gandhiji and disassociated himself from the Congress. The environment of Bengal is such that it disfavours leadership from outside and rises in revolt when it senses danger to its rights and interests.

The confidence of East Pakistan will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaquat Ali are alive. But after them any small incident will create resentment and disaffection. I feel that it will not be possible for East Pakistan to stay with West Pakistan for any considerable period of time. There is nothing common between the two regions except that they call themselves Muslims. But the fact of being Muslim has never created durable political unity anywhere in the world. The Arab World is before us; they subscribe to a common religion, a common civilisation and culture and speak a common language. In fact they acknowledge even territorial unity. But there is no political unity among them. Their systems of government are different and they are often engaged in mutual recrimination and hostility. On the other hand, the language, customs and way of life of East Pakistan are totally different from West Pakistan. The moment the creative warmth of Pakistan cools down, the contradictions will emerge and will acquire assertive overtones. These will be fuelled by the clash of interests of international powers and consequently both wings will separate. After the separation of East Pakistan, whenever it happens, West Pakistan will become the battleground of regional contradictions and disputes. The assertion of sub-national identities of Punjab, Sind, Frontier and Balochistan will open the doors for outside interference. It will not be long before the international powers use the diverse elements of Pakistani political leadership to break the country on the lines of Balkan and Arab states. Maybe at that stage we will ask ourselves, what have we gained and what have we lost.

The real issue is economic development and progress, it certainly is not religion. Muslim business leaders have doubts about their own ability and competitive spirit. They are so used to official patronage and favours that they fear new freedom and liberty. They advocate the two-nation theory to conceal their fears and want to have a Muslim state where they have the monopoly to control the economy without any competition from competent rivals. It will be interesting to watch how long they can keep this deception alive.

I feel that right from its inception, Pakistan will face some very serious problems:

1. The incompetent political leadership will pave the way for military dictatorship as it has happened in many Muslim countries.

2. The heavy burden of foreign debt.

3. Absence of friendly relationship with neighbours and the possibility of armed conflict.

4. Internal unrest and regional conflicts.

5. The loot of national wealth by the neo-rich and industrialists of Pakistan.

6. The apprehension of class war as a result of exploitation by the neo-rich.

7. The dissatisfaction and alienation of the youth from religion and the collapse of the theory of Pakistan.

8. The conspiracies of the international powers to control Pakistan.

In this situation, the stability of Pakistan will be under strain and the Muslim countries will be in no position to provide any worthwhile help. The assistance from other sources will not come without strings and it will force both ideological and territorial compromises.

But the question is how Muslims can keep their community identity intact and how they can inculcate the attributes of the citizens of a Muslim state?

Hollow words cannot falsify the basic realities nor slanted questions can make the answers deficient. It amounts to distortion of the discourse. What is meant by community identity? If this community identity has remained intact during the British slavery, how will it come under threat in a free India in whose affairs Muslims will be equal participants? What attributes of the Muslim state you wish to cultivate? The real issue is the freedom of faith and worship and who can put a cap on that freedom. Will independence reduce the 90 million Muslims into such a helpless state that they will feel constrained in enjoying their religious freedom? If the British, who as a world power could not snatch this liberty, what magic or power do the Hindus have to deny this freedom of religion? These questions have been raised by those, who, under the influence of western culture, have renounced their own heritage and are now raising dust through political gimmickry.

Muslim history is an important part of Indian history. Do you think the Muslim kings were serving the cause of Islam? They had a nominal relationship with Islam; they were not Islamic preachers. Muslims of India owe their gratitude to Sufis, and many of these divines were treated by the kings very cruelly. Most of the kings created a large band of Ulema who were an obstacle in the path of the propagation of Islamic ethos and values. Islam, in its pristine form, had a tremendous appeal and in the first century won the hearts and minds of a large number of people living in and around Hejaz. But the Islam that came to India was different, the carriers were non-Arabs and the real spirit was missing. Still, the imprint of the Muslim period is writ large on the culture, music, art, architecture and languages of India. What do the cultural centres of India, like Delhi and Lucknow, represent? The underlying Muslim spirit is all too obvious.

If the Muslims still feel under threat and believe that they will be reduced to slavery in free India then I can only pray for their faith and hearts. If a man becomes disenchanted with life he can be helped to revival, but if someone is timid and lacks courage, then it is not possible to help him become brave and gutsy. The Muslims as a community have become cowards. They have no fear of God, instead they fear men. This explains why they are so obsessed with threats to their existence -- a figment of their imagination.

After British takeover, the government committed all possible excesses against the Muslims. But Muslims did not cease to exist. On the contrary, they registered a growth that was more than average. The Muslim cultural ethos and values have their own charm. Then India has large Muslim neighbours on three sides. Why on earth the majority in this country will be interested to wipe out the Muslims? How will it promote their self interests? Is it so easy to finish 90 million people? In fact, Muslim culture has such attraction that I shall not be surprised if it comes to have the largest following in free India.

The world needs both, a durable peace and a philosophy of life. If the Hindus can run after Marx and undertake scholarly studies of the philosophy and wisdom of the west, they do not disdain Islam and will be happy to benefit from its principles. In fact they are more familiar with Islam and acknowledge that Islam does not mean parochialism of a hereditary community or a despotic system of governance. Islam is a universal call to establish peace on the basis of human equality. They know that Islam is the proclamation of a messenger who calls to the worship of God and not his own worship. Islam means freedom from all social and economic discriminations and reorganisation of society on three basic principles of god-consciousness, righteous action and knowledge. In fact, it is we Muslims and our extremist behaviour that has created an aversion among non-Muslims for Islam. If we had not allowed our selfish ambitions to soil the purity of Islam then many seekers of truth would have found comfort in the bosom of Islam. Pakistan has nothing to do with Islam; it is a political demand that is projected by Muslim League as the national goal of Indian Muslims. I feel it is not the solution to the problems Muslims are facing. In fact it is bound to create more problems.

The holy Prophet has said, "God has made the whole earth a mosque for me." Now do not ask me to support the idea of the partition of a mosque. If the nine-crore Muslims were thinly scattered all over India, and demand was made to reorganise the states in a manner to ensure their majority in one or two regions, that was understandable. Again such a demand would not have been right from an Islamic viewpoint, but justifiable on administrative grounds. But the situation, as it exists, is drastically different. All the border states of India have Muslim majorities sharing borders with Muslim countries. Tell me, who can eliminate these populations? By demanding Pakistan we are turning our eyes away from the history of the last 1,000 years and, if I may use the League terminology, throwing more than 30 million Muslims into the lap of "Hindu Raj". The Hindu Muslim problem that has created political tension between Congress and League will become a source of dispute between the two states and with the aid of international powers this may erupt into full scale war anytime in future.

The question is often raised that if the idea of Pakistan is so fraught with dangers for the Muslims, why is it being opposed by the Hindus? I feel that the opposition to the demand is coming from two quarters. One is represented by those who genuinely feel concerned about imperial machinations and strongly believe that a free, united India will be in a better position to defend itself. On the other hand, there is a section who opposes Pakistan with the motive to provoke Muslims to become more determined in their demand and thus get rid of them. Muslims have every right to demand constitutional safeguards, but partition of India cannot promote their interests. The demand is the politically incorrect solution of a communal problem.

In future India will be faced with class problems, not communal disputes; the conflict will be between capital and labour. The communist and socialist movements are growing and it is not possible to ignore them. These movements will increasingly fight for the protection of the interest of the underclass. The Muslim capitalists and the feudal classes are apprehensive of this impending threat. Now they have given this whole issue a communal colour and have turned the economic issue into a religious dispute. But Muslims alone are not responsible for it. This strategy was first adopted by the British government and then endorsed by the political minds of Aligarh. Later, Hindu short-sightedness made matters worse and now freedom has become contingent on the partition of India.

Jinnah himself was an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. In one Congress session Sarojini Naidu had commended him with this title. He was a disciple of Dadabhai Naoroji. He had refused to join the 1906 deputation of Muslims that initiated communal politics in India. In 1919 he stood firmly as a nationalist and opposed Muslim demands before the joint select committee. On 3 October 1925, in a letter to The Times of India he rubbished the suggestion that Congress is a Hindu outfit. In the all parties conferences of 1925 and 1928, he strongly favoured a joint electorate. While speaking at the National Assembly in 1925, he said, "I am a nationalist first and a nationalist last" and exhorted his colleagues, be they Hindus or Muslims, "not to raise communal issues in the House and help make the assembly a national institution in the truest sense of the term".

In 1928, Jinnah supported the Congress call to boycott Simon Commission. Till 1937, he did not favour the demand to partition India. In his message to various student bodies he stressed the need to work for Hindu Muslim unity. But he felt aggrieved when the Congress formed governments in seven states and ignored the Muslim League. In 1940 he decided to pursue the partition demand to check Muslim political decline. In short, the demand for Pakistan is his response to his own political experiences. Mr Jinnah has every right to his opinion about me, but I have no doubts about his intelligence. As a politician he has worked overtime to fortify Muslim communalism and the demand for Pakistan. Now it has become a matter of prestige for him and he will not give it up at any cost.

It is clear that Muslims are not going to turn away from their demand for Pakistan. Why have they become so impervious to all reason and logic of arguments?

It is difficult, rather impossible, To fight against the misplaced enthusiasm of a mob, but to suppress one's conscience is worse than death. Today the Muslims are not walking, they are flowing. The problem is that Muslims have not learnt to walk steady; they either run or flow with the tide. When a group of people lose confidence and self-respect, they are surrounded by imaginary doubts and dangers and fail to make a distinction between the right and the wrong. The true meaning of life is realised not through numerical strength but through firm faith and righteous action. British politics has sown many seeds of fear and distrust in the mental field of Muslims. Now they are in a frightful state, bemoaning the departure of the British and demanding partition before the foreign masters leave. Do they believe that partition will avert all the dangers to their lives and bodies? If these dangers are real then they will still haunt their borders and any armed conflict will result in much greater loss of lives and possessions.

But Hindus and Muslims are two different nations with different and disparate inclinations. How can the unity between the two be achieved?

This is an obsolete debate. I have seen the correspondence between Allama Iqbal and Maulana Husain Ahmad Madni on the subject. In the Quran the term qaum has been used not only for the community of believers but has also been used for distinct human groupings generally. What do we wish to achieve by raising this debate about the etymological scope of terms like millat [community], qaum [nation] and ummat [group]? In religious terms India is home to many people -- the Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs etc. The differences between Hindu religion and Islam are vast in scope. But these differences cannot be allowed to become an obstacle in the path of India gaining her freedom nor do the two distinct and different systems of faith negate the idea of unity of India. The issue is of our national independence and how we can secure it. Freedom is a blessing and is the right of every human being. It cannot be divided on the basis of religion.

Muslims must realise that they are bearers of a universal message. They are not a racial or regional grouping in whose territory others cannot enter. Strictly speaking, Muslims in India are not one community; they are divided among many well-entrenched sects. You can unite them by arousing their anti-Hindu sentiment but you cannot unite them in the name of Islam. To them Islam means undiluted loyalty to their own sect. Apart from Wahabi, Sunni and Shia there are innumerable groups who owe allegiance to different saints and divines. Small issues like raising hands during the prayer and saying amen loudly have created disputes that defy solution. The ulema have used the instrument of takfeer [fatwas declaring someone as infidel] liberally. Earlier, they used to take Islam to the disbelievers; now they take away Islam from the believers. Islamic history is full of instances of how good and pious Muslims were branded kafirs. Prophets alone had the capability to cope with these mindboggling situations. Even they had to pass through times of afflictions and trials. The fact is that when reason and intelligence are abandoned and attitudes become fossilised then the job of the reformer becomes very difficult.

But today the situation is worse than ever. Muslims have become firm in their communalism; they prefer politics to religion and follow their worldly ambitions as commands of religion. History bears testimony to the fact that in every age we ridiculed those who pursued the good with consistency, snuffed out the brilliant examples of sacrifice and tore the flags of selfless service. Who are we, the ordinary mortals; even high ranking Prophets were not spared by these custodians of traditions and customs.

You closed down your journal Al-Hilal a long time back. Was it due to your disappointment with the Muslims who were wallowing in intellectual desolation, or did you feel like proclaiming azan [call to prayer] in a barren desert?

I abandoned Al-Hilal not because I had lost faith in its truth. This journal created great awareness among a large section of Muslims. They renewed their faith in Islam, in human freedom and in consistent pursuit of righteous goals. In fact my own life was greatly enriched by this experience and I felt like those who had the privilege of learning under the companionship of the messenger of God. My own voice entranced me and under its impact I burnt out like a phoenix. Al-Hilal had served its purpose and a new age was dawning. Based on my experiences, I made a reappraisal of the situation and decided to devote all my time and energy for the attainment of our national freedom. I was firm in my belief that freedom of Asia and Africa largely depends on India's freedom and Hindu Muslim unity is key to India's freedom. Even before the first World War, I had realised that India was destined to attain freedom, and no power on earth would be able to deny it. I was also clear in my mind about the role of Muslims. I ardently wished that Muslims would learn to walk together with their countrymen and not give an opportunity to history to say that when Indians were fighting for their independence, Muslims were looking on as spectators. Let nobody say that instead of fighting the waves they were standing on the banks and showing mirth on the drowning of boats carrying the freedom fighters.

(The interview was published in Covert magazine in its November 28, 2009 issue)

April 1946 interview with Maulana Abul Kalam Azad - the man who knew the future | TwoCircles.net

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## MilSpec

Rafi said:


> I think M A is seen in the prism of opposing our independence, that will color Pakistani views on him.


what about the the generals who completely skewed the vision of the jinnah, As i said, we barely posses to mental prowess to understand mualan's prowess. 

The question remains, what have pakistanis done to the vision of their greatest leader?

"You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class." - Jinnah

" I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam."- Jinnah

" In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims &#8212; Hindus, Christians, and Parsis &#8212; but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan." - Jinnah

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ignited Mind

*Reality check!

No. of years Maulana Azad spent in British Jails: 11

No. of years (let's make it days) Jinnah spent in British Jails: 0*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Ignited Mind said:


> *Put them on your ignore list. You can't help them. The only person you can help is yourself. So, have mercy on yourself and put the trolls on your ignore list. *



Why would i not want to be on your ignore list. That to me is recognition  that I am more than happy to be on your ignore list. At least that will insure that you trolls don't swear at me for no reason. Very simple Indians don't knock Pakistan and we wont show you the mirror

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ignited Mind

Maulana Azad: A practicing Muslim. Son of the soil. Mass leader. 

Jinnah: Not a practicing Muslim. No roots among the people until 1940. No following until 1940.

Maulana Azad: A peaceful man. 

Jinnah: Called Direct Action Day. Triggered mass riots resulting in heavy loss of life and bloodshed in Bengal, especially Kolkata.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Ignited Mind said:


> *Reality check!
> 
> No. of years Maulana Azad spent in British Jails: 11
> 
> No. of years (let's make it days) Jinnah spent in British Jails: 0*



There are lots of criminals who have spent time in prison so what??

Quaid believed in constitutionalism and law and order. let me give you an example you lot get excited about ghandi and hos non violence. If I am going to my work place and someone takes his clothes off puts on a bed sheet and lies in front of my car to prevent me from going to work he is breaking the law and as such should be punished.

If I choose to kick him and remove I would be entitled to. In fact all this non violence was a load of bolloxs because if his action is taken to provoke someone to break a law he should be incarcerated not lauded as some hero of non violance. Another Incredible Indians myth in the bin

If you want direct action on the basis of necessity be honest like the Quaid and just call a day of action. not this pretense and lies of non violent action

*You will never be allowed to hide this truth whilst you come on pdf. *



Aryan_B said:


> I went through the education system in the UK. But I was taught how to recognise a quisling one that was a traitor to his own You see fateh you can say he was a god. But it don't make any difference, We Pakistani Muslims matter cos he was one of us a Muslim. Do if Pakistani Muslims think the Quaid was a hero to his people that is true. We cannot say the same about Azad. You lauding Azad cannot change that. We could and we would be right to call your greatest traitor as a hero get it izen tit lol
> 
> 
> 
> Ignited Mind said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one is forcing you. Only your obsession with Pakistan. Go shoo go away Indian go back to that that place described so accurately by you untouchable compatriot
> 
> For Pakistanis you decide would Azad have talked the way he did if he saw this:
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

Aryan_B said:


> Hi sandy 3126 did you enjoy thanking that troll who swore at me for no reason last night. enjoy these statistics from your untouchable dalit not brother



Absolutely, he did for a very good reason,I have never taken your verbal diarrhea seriously and never will.. so you keep slinging your mud, i am just amused. I have lived in India for enough years to know what our problems are and dont need your statistics, i can use google for 5 mins to get data to paint a negative picture of pakistan to being an morally corrupt, terror hub or just failed state, But I wont do that because that would just being like you. I have learnt enough on this forum, how important pakistan is to the world and how vibrant its aspirations are. Its just hate spewing people like you that I cannot tolerate. 

And about the post you are referring to, Its not just me , a lot of members irrespective of their nationality has that exact word pop in their mind when they read your posts. 
thanks

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> Hi sandy 3126 did you enjoy thanking that troll who swore at me for no reason last night. enjoy these statistics from your untouchable dalit not brother



Long live Pakistan. thank god Quaid's vision of Pakistan came into being

How sad that Azad was thought a traitor by many of his own and a hero by many enemies of his people ie Hindus



sandy_3126 said:


> Absolutely, he did for a very good reason,I have never taken your verbal diarrhea seriously and never will.. so you keep slinging your mud, i am just amused. I have lived in India for enough years to know what our problems are and dont need your statistics, i can use google for 5 mins to get data to paint a negative picture of pakistan to being an morally corrupt, terror hub or just failed state, But I wont do that because that would just being like you. I have learnt enough on this forum, how important pakistan is to the world and how vibrant its aspirations are. Its just hate spewing people like you that I cannot tolerate. _you lot started it_
> 
> And about the post you are referring to, Its not just me , a lot of members irrespective of their nationality has that exact word pop in their mind when they read your posts.
> thanks



Tell me what do you think of that untouchable who shows us what a toilet India is?? 

A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Thank God we are no longer part of it. Wonder what Mr Azad would have made of it

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## EjazR

Rafi said:


> I think M A is seen in the prism of opposing our independence, that will color Pakistani views on him.



No one supported the Pakistan scheme until 1940. Not even Jinnah himself. Chaudary Rahmat Ali was the only person who came up with the Pakistan scheme and he was roundly criticized and belittled by all the important Muslim League leaders at that time - forget Congress leaders. These included the Aga Khan and Iqbal

Read his 1930 Allahabad speech here Presidential Address, annual session of the All-India Muslim League, Allahabad, December 1930, by Sir Muhammad Iqbal
No where does he talk about "Pakistan". Infact, there is a section called "The Unity of an Indian Nation" and another called Muslim Indian WITHIN India. Read it to understand what he wanted and how Allama Iqbal called the people of present day Pakistan - North West INDIAN Muslims.

In fact, when his speech was misinterpreted as supporting Chaudary Rahmat Ali, he immediately made it know that he was against the Pakistan scheme and what he was calling was for provinces (riyasat) within the Indian federation.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lem34

EjazR said:


> No one supported the Pakistan scheme until 1940. Not even Jinnah himself. Chaudary Rahmat Ali was the only person who came up with the Pakistan scheme and he was roundly criticized and belittled by all the important Muslim League leaders at that time - forget Congress leaders. These included the Aga Khan and Iqbal
> 
> Read his 1930 Allahabad speech here Presidential Address, annual session of the All-India Muslim League, Allahabad, December 1930, by Sir Muhammad Iqbal
> No where does he talk about "Pakistan". Infact, there is a section literally called Muslim Indian WITHIN India which clearly shows what he wanted.
> 
> In fact, when his speech was misinterpreted as supporting Chaudary Rahmat Ali, he immediately made it know that he was against the Pakistan scheme and what he was calling was for provinces (riyasat) within the Indian federation.



that shows that it was with reluctance they were forced into it by Hindus


----------



## ashokdeiva

Aryan_B said:


> Non Resident Indian Population around the globe
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to India&#8217;s politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts
> 
> Quit India!
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.


That was the most stupid post that I have ever come accross  Too much of nothing
I and other 1.2 billion INDIANS live here and only the brightest of minds get the oppertunity to go abroad and harness their skill and make excelent contribution to the human kind from where ever they are and remain the ambasdors of good will and prosperity representing INDIA where ever they live. 
And finally you are talking about INDIANS quiting INDIA, where as you have already quit PAKISTAN for the comfort that Britain has to offer.

And for the bold part, please tell it correctly that "PAKISTAN stayed back in every growth parameter compared to INDIA just to form a nation for the MUSLIM Navabs and Zamindars and Rajakars.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MilSpec

Aryan_B said:


> Long live Pakistan. thank god Quaid's vision of Pakistan came into being
> 
> How sad that Azad was thought a traitor by many of his own and a hero by many enemies of his people ie Hindus
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me what do you think of that untouchable who shows us what a toilet India is??
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Thank God we are no longer part of it. Wonder what Mr Azad would have made of it




Sir, 
It is impossible for me to get into any discussion with you. I have a very strict No BS policy. 

thanks,

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## notsuperstitious

Ignited Mind said:


> *Reality check!
> 
> No. of years Maulana Azad spent in British Jails: 11
> 
> No. of years (let's make it days) Jinnah spent in British Jails: 0*


 
And the predictable lie here is that its because of his belief in rule of law, but the realty is that he defended ilm ud din and called for direct action leading to thousands dead and encouraged barbaric kabailis attacking looting and raping kashmiris.

And these british dole earning pakistanis have the cheek to call Maulana Azad a british agent!

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Ignited Mind

fateh71 said:


> And the predictable lie here is that its because of his belief in rule of law, but the realty is that he defended ilm ud din and called for direct action leading to thousands dead and encouraged barbaric kabailis attacking looting and raping kashmiris.
> 
> And these british dole earning pakistanis have the cheek to call Maulana Azad a british agent!



In those days, if you really opposed the British rule, you HAD TO GO TO JAIL. 

Going to jail was an unavoidable consequence of opposing the British rule. 

IF THE BRITISH DID NOT SEND YOU TO JAIL, THAT MEANS THERE WAS SOMETHING FISHY GOING ON BETWEEN YOU AND THE BRITISH.

Can't help it. Just can't.

Pick up the records of any freedom fighter worth his salt. All of them went to jails. Without exception. ALL FREEDOM FIGHTERS WENT TO JAIL. EXCEPT JINNAH!

*Gandhi.

Nehru.

Maulana Azad.

Lal Bahadur Shastri.

Lala Lajpat Rai. 

Subhas Chandra Bose.

Ashfaqullah Khan.

The list is endless.

...THEY ALL WENT TO JAILS!*

What does that tell ya'?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## EjazR

Aryan_B said:


> that shows that it was with reluctance they were forced into it by Hindus



Actually some would say it was cutting the nose to spite the face: Cutting off the nose to spite the face - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And possibly being outsmarted by the British/US to provide a willing pawn in the new Great game against the USSR.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

fateh71 said:


> And the predictable lie here is that its because of his belief in rule of law, but the realty is that he defended ilm ud din and called for direct action leading to thousands dead and encouraged barbaric kabailis attacking looting and raping kashmiris.
> 
> And these british dole earning pakistanis have the cheek to call Maulana Azad a british agent!



That personal attack is not missed. It was your brethren tried to justify that traitor a hero by maligning Pakistan and swearing so don't cry now when we make you look at the mirror


----------



## somebozo



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Tamizhan

Porus said:


> Pakistanis are those who are now the nationals of Pakistan. Those Muslims who migrated from India to Pak and have acquired its citizenship are equal Pakistanis now.



We are not talking about 'now'. But 'then' ('47). When all Muslims were supposed to move to Pakistan.



Porus said:


> It will be even foolish to imagine that a Pashtun or even Punjabi will ever be ready to share his land with millions of immigrants with whom they hardly share anything except religion..


 
That you were ready or not was immaterial at that time. It was what Jinnah argued for and if not for the stupid stupid Gandhi and Nehru, it was what he would have got. Period.


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> There are lots of criminals who have spent time in prison so what??
> 
> Quaid believed in constitutionalism and law and order. let me give you an example you lot get excited about ghandi and hos non violence. If I am going to my work place and someone takes his clothes off puts on a bed sheet and lies in front of my car to prevent me from going to work he is breaking the law and as such should be punished.
> 
> If I choose to kick him and remove I would be entitled to. In fact all this non violence was a load of bolloxs because if his action is taken to provoke someone to break a law he should be incarcerated not lauded as some hero of non violance. Another Incredible Indians myth in the bin
> 
> If you want direct action on the basis of necessity be honest like the Quaid and just call a day of action. not this pretense and lies of non violent action
> 
> *You will never be allowed to hide this truth whilst you come on pdf. *
> 
> 
> 
> Aryan_B said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went through the education system in the UK. But I was taught how to recognise a quisling one that was a traitor to his own You see fateh you can say he was a god. But it don't make any difference, We Pakistani Muslims matter cos he was one of us a Muslim. Do if Pakistani Muslims think the Quaid was a hero to his people that is true. We cannot say the same about Azad. You lauding Azad cannot change that. We could and we would be right to call your greatest traitor as a hero get it izen tit lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on Indians look in the mirror if you can justify Azad was hero by maligning Pakistan I can show the guy is a traitor to his own
> 
> Must read for all Pakistanis to show that Azad was wrong and Quaid was right to fight for Pakistan
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Secur

Ignited Mind said:


> *Reality check!
> 
> No. of years Maulana Azad spent in British Jails: 11
> 
> No. of years (let's make it days) Jinnah spent in British Jails: 0*



Only if the number of days spent in prison were some indicator of a person's character and sincerity ...

Then our beloved President would have been the most greatest leader in the history of Pakistan ...

So please , these type of arguments will get you nowhere ...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Tamizhan said:


> That you were ready or not was immaterial at that time. It was what Jinnah argued for and if not for the stupid stupid Gandhi and Nehru, it was what he would have got. Period.



Your leaders you can call them what you want

dont forget to read why Azad was wrong and a traitor to his own people

A Zillion reasons to escape from India



Secur said:


> Only if the number of days spent in prison were some indicator of a person's character and sincerity ...
> 
> Then our beloved President would have been the most greatest leader in the history of Pakistan ...
> 
> So please , these type of arguments will get you nowhere ...






*Never forget what we left behind. Thank Allah every day from keeping us safe Quaid was a hero as Azad a traitor to his people*



Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to Indias politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the worlds hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. Indias Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. Indias rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under ALARMING category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the Indias planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Banks poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent  (and) consolidated fiscal deficit, says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that Indias GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysias $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are Other Backward Castes.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of Indias civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in Indias power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of Indias primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nations capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the worlds total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools dont have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of Indias schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, Indias spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of Indias GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of Indias GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to Indias national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber. says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an extensive surveillance society. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country consistently upholds human rights standards. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> Indias intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. Thats more than 70 %. Indias jails hold a disproportionate number of the countrys minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in Indias largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption. The State Department observes: There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths. Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. Others numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel  a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army dont allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of Indias urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India by the UNs special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. Its believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows  at least 40per cent are said to be under 50  are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehtas award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death  they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar, said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under Indias notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of Indias new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of Indias 602 districts  mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh  are badly affected by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as Maoist terror. Indias military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Armys budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by worlds weapon industry! India is now one of the worlds most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. Indias crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the countrys largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israels largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market, says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. Indias Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, Indias National Interest simply means their self Interest. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the worlds largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked worlds second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the worlds heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutvas security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nations land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the countrys 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesnt have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of Indias population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses  such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks  employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among Indias working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper,  says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhis image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capitals 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed crime capital of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> Indias share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEFs recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of developing and threshold countries, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesnt welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for red tapes and  corruption friendly service a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a hospitable country. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers  motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the worlds vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of Indias Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the countrys economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts Indias death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or invaders to India include few hired or weird Pakistani bombers, villagers around Indias border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is legally and morally fit to become Indias next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutvas fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by OutlookAC Nielsen shows that 46 % of Indias urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on National Pride of India?
> 
> India is the World Banks largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake India Shining propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britains aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality  of class, caste, wealth, religion  this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Ignited Mind

Secur said:


> Only if the number of days spent in prison were some indicator of a person's character and sincerity ...
> 
> Then our beloved President would have been the most greatest leader in the history of Pakistan ...
> 
> So please , these type of arguments will get you nowhere ...



A argument in which *you choose to neglect the context* is only Bhasad and not an argument. 

If you want to indulge in an argument, read post 358.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tamizhan

Aryan_B said:


> He was a traitor to his own people. We think some Khalistanis are hero's izent tit. One mans terrorist is another's freedomfighter. Point is he was a muslim and you Hindus think he was a hero. Pakistani Muslims think the Quaid was a hero amongst average group of Indian leaders



Make no mistake. Jinnah is considered a hero by the Indians for voluntarily taking India through a long overdue de-toxification routine.

We are also thankful that at the end of the day Jinnah won and not AKA. But that doesn't mean we dis-respect AKA. 

You chaps think that to respect Jinnah you have to disrespect AKA. That is where the difference in mentality comes.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LaBong

Some pakistanis as usual desperately trying to justify the existence of their country. Personally I don't agree with Moulana Azad, we are so much better of without Pakistan, thanks to Mr Jinnah.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Ignited Mind said:


> A argument in which *you choose to neglect the context* is only Bhasad and not an argument.
> 
> If you want to indulge in an argument, read post 358.



Why don't you read 365 and tell us why when all of you want to leave the toilet that is India as described by that untouchable Indian and yet you think Azad was a hero for suggesting Muslims were wrong to want a homeland


----------



## Secur

Azad thought that Hindu and Muslims could live in peace and harmony together and that Hindus would provide equal chances to Muslims in Govt and state legislatures however the attitude of Nehru&Co proved otherwise ... How else do you think Muslim League gained such prominence in the subcontinent ?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## somebozo

Ignited Mind said:


> Maulana Azad: A practicing Muslim. Son of the soil. Mass leader.
> 
> Jinnah: Not a practicing Muslim. No roots among the people until 1940. No following until 1940.
> 
> Maulana Azad: A peaceful man.
> 
> Jinnah: Called Direct Action Day. Triggered mass riots resulting in heavy loss of life and bloodshed in Bengal, especially Kolkata.



If going to Jail is the objective here then from the British government point of view, Moulana Azad was just a terrorist / criminal spreading anarchy. And for all the precious time he wasted in jail, he deprived his supporters of his leadership. That is not a smart move on behalf of a leader.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ignited Mind

somebozo said:


> If going to Jail is the objective here then from the British government point of view, Moulana Azad was just a terrorist / criminal spreading anarchy. And for all the precious time he wasted in jail, he deprived his supporters of his leadership. That is not a smart move on behalf of a leader.



British POV is immaterial. Even today they consider many Indian freedom fighters, terrorists. 

That's OKAY. That's expected of them. They WERE the bad guys of those times.

It's not really surprising of a people whose queen proudly sports a an object of loot in her crown.
*
However, to witness the same behaviour from present day Pakistanis, people who were with us for centuries and suffered the British rule with us for centuries, is surprising and downright contemptible. *

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Secur

LaBong said:


> Some pakistanis as usual desperately trying to justify the existence of their country. Personally I don't agree with Moulana Azad, we are so much better of without Pakistan, thanks to Mr Jinnah.


 Bull ****  Justifying the existence of our country ? Seriously , do we need to prove it to you ?  ... We are fine here , Thank you very much !

When you say " better without Pakistan " , actually you mean " better without 40% majority Muslims " ! Shows how much you hate Muslims ... Height of hypocrisy !

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> Aryan_B said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of criminals who have spent time in prison so what??
> 
> Quaid believed in constitutionalism and law and order. let me give you an example you lot get excited about ghandi and hos non violence. If I am going to my work place and someone takes his clothes off puts on a bed sheet and lies in front of my car to prevent me from going to work he is breaking the law and as such should be punished.
> 
> If I choose to kick him and remove I would be entitled to. In fact all this non violence was a load of bolloxs because if his action is taken to provoke someone to break a law he should be incarcerated not lauded as some hero of non violance. Another Incredible Indians myth in the bin
> 
> If you want direct action on the basis of necessity be honest like the Quaid and just call a day of action. not this pretense and lies of non violent action
> 
> *You will never be allowed to hide this truth whilst you come on pdf. *
> 
> 
> 
> Come on Indians look in the mirror if you can justify Azad was hero by maligning Pakistan I can show the guy is a traitor to his own
> 
> Must read for all Pakistanis to show that Azad was wrong and Quaid was right to fight for Pakistan
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on Pakistanis comment on the statistics that Indians can not face
> 
> Which prove Quaid was a hero to his people whilst Azad was a hero to his peoples enemies Hindus
> 
> 
> 
> somebozo said:
> 
> 
> 
> If going to Jail is the objective here then from the British government point of view, Moulana Azad was just a terrorist / criminal spreading anarchy. And for all the precious time he wasted in jail, he deprived his supporters of his leadership. That is not a smart move on behalf of a leader.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who were his people ??? Hindus Indians think him a hero leader not us
Click to expand...


----------



## ashokdeiva

Secur said:


> Azad thought that Hindu and Muslims could live in peace and harmony together and that Hindus would provide equal chances to Muslims in Govt and state legislatures however the attitude of Nehru&Co proved otherwise ... How else do you think Muslim League gained such prominence in the subcontinent ?


Do you know how a magician can make a huge object disappear and reappear for a large audiance, its just *misdirections*
and because Muslims got mis directed that they can be NAVABS in their own land and if they stay along with INDIA will be sujucated by Hindus is the best mis direction that let to the divide and the subsequent death of countless lives and the present pathetic state of PAKISTAN because the same people who thought they will be NAVABS in their own land do not own land in PAKISTAN but the land of PAKISTAN is now owned by the blood line of the people who mis directed the MUSLIMS


----------



## Tamizhan

Aryan_B said:


> Your leaders you can call them what you want
> 
> dont forget to read why Azad was wrong and a traitor to his own people



I was not even responding to you nor will I in the future considering that you have the reasoning ability of a pre-born foetus.

Please don't bother responding.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lem34

Secur said:


> Bull ****  Justifying the existence of our country ? Seriously , do we need to prove it to you ?  ... We are fine here , Thank you very much !
> 
> When you say " better without Pakistan " , actually you mean " better without 40% majority Muslims " ! Shows how much you hate Muslims ... Height of hypocrisy !



tell me did you see this and thank Allah for Pakistan and think Azad was wrong?

A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Secur

Tamizhan said:


> Make no mistake. Jinnah is considered a hero by the Indians for voluntarily taking India through a long overdue de-toxification routine.



What is this " de-toxification ?  Try to explain !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## longbrained

I think Azad was living in a dreamland. The massacre of Muslims in India even today proves that fact. Muslims are under represented in Indian government even today and still are not having the same access to education there. No body can dispute that Muslims living in Pakistan have achieved far greater not only in national terms but also on individual basis from science to wealth. The notion that Jinnah was wrong is a fallacy to be avoided at all costs since it is being propagated to weaken Pakistan's foundation. We have to remember though that Azad was a learned man but he was talking only theoretically and only in his own constructed dreamland and had virtually no public support. While people were with Jinnah and were willing to die for him on streets. Since such political decisions have to e made on democratic principles not on some imagined theories, Jinnah was right on this and Azad was wrong. It is as simple as it gets. And even Allama Iqbal was of the view of creation of a nation for Muslims and I see him as a much greater theorist than Azad ever was. We should be very careful of these revisionist ideas that pop up from time to time. These do not serve anything for Pakistan except adding to Indian imagination and fantasy.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tamizhan

Secur said:


> What is this " de-toxification ?  Try to explain !



I think you know it. I will not explain.


----------



## Bratva

Ignited Mind said:


> Maulana Azad: A practicing Muslim. Son of the soil. Mass leader.
> 
> Jinnah: Not a practicing Muslim. No roots among the people until 1940. No following until 1940.
> 
> Maulana Azad: A peaceful man.
> 
> Jinnah: Called Direct Action Day. Triggered mass riots resulting in heavy loss of life and bloodshed in Bengal, especially Kolkata.



A reality Check.

Jinnah charisma among indian muslims: 1946 General elections, Muslim League won "majority" of muslim seats. If Azad was a Mass leader of Muslims then how many muslim seats won by Indian congress Care to mention Mr.Genius?

Sarojini Naidu had called him (M.A. Jinnah) the 'ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity in 1916. Jinnah efforts Led to Congress and Muslim league joining hands in form of "Lucknow Pact". So 1940-1916 = 24 years. How the hell a man who has no following is being titled ambassador and bringing Major rival parties to negotiation table?. Mr Jinnah attended round table conference in 1930 or 1931. how come an unknown person attended the round table conference?


M.A.Jinnah: Show one criminal record of Jinnah that shows he was a criminal? AN ambassador of muslim hindu unity is considered more Peace loving then some Azad type Guy, Now that's a harsh reality.

Direct Action Day: Prove That Muslim league was behind Mass riots or Hindu Mob was not behind the Mass riots Calcutta.



Mr. it is easy to make tall claims, so properly do research before opening your rotten mouth and brain.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Aryan_B said:


> Why don't you read 365 and



If you are bringing the quality of living standards in India.

HDI is a parameter , India comes under a medium development , not good enough but good scope for improvement.



> tell us *why when all of you want to leave *the toilet that is India




_all of us want to leave_? was there a poll conducted for all of us




> as described by that untouchable Indian and yet you think Azad was a hero for suggesting Muslims were wrong to want a homeland



Some of feel it didn't have purpose.


----------



## MilSpec

somebozo said:


> If going to Jail is the objective here then from the British government point of view, Moulana Azad was just a terrorist / criminal spreading anarchy. And for all the precious time he wasted in jail, he deprived his supporters of his leadership. That is not a smart move on behalf of a leader.



It is obvious you won't understand India's freedom struggle, as it was a *India*'s freedom movement, whereas muslim league was a subservient to british entity.


----------



## lem34

Tamizhan said:


> I was not even responding to you nor will I in the future considering that you have the reasoning ability of a pre-born foetus.
> 
> Please don't bother responding.



This is what some of you inhuman Indians do with foetus

Fetus Killing

Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.

Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
*
I wonder if that traitor to his people Azad knew this. Would he have changed his mind?*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## somebozo

Ignited Mind said:


> British POV is immaterial. *Even today they consider many Indian freedom fighters, terrorists. *
> 
> That's OKAY. That's expected of them. They WERE the bad guys of those times.
> 
> It's not really surprising of a people whose queen proudly sports a an object of loot in her crown.
> *
> However, to witness the same behaviour from present day Pakistanis, people who were with us for centuries and suffered the British rule with us for centuries, is surprising and downright contemptible. *



And you consider Kashmiri freedom fighters to be terrorist..so the colonial British mentality is still alive and kicking in India.



Aryan_B said:


> This is what some of you inhuman Indians do with foetus
> 
> Fetus Killing
> 
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> *
> I wonder if that traitor to his people Azad knew this. Would he have changed his mind?*



In Gandhian India, Parent kill you!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Secur

Aryan_B said:


> tell me did you see this and thank Allah for Pakistan and think Azad was wrong?
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India



The shiny India ai'nt so shiny actually !

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ignited Mind

somebozo said:


> And you consider Kashmiri freedom fighters to be terrorist..so the colonial British mentality is still alive and kicking in India.



Seriously? You wanna bring the K word to this thread? Please bother sm1 else.


----------



## somebozo

sandy_3126 said:


> It is obvious you won't understand India's freedom struggle, as it was a *India*'s freedom movement, whereas muslim league was a subservient to british entity.



Today India is ruled by an Italian woman and the president is subservient to America.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lem34

longbrained said:


> I think Azad was living in a dreamland. The massacre of Muslims in India even today proves that fact. Muslims are under represented in Indian government even today and still are not having the same access to education there. No body can dispute that Muslims living in Pakistan have achieved far greater not only in national terms but also on individual basis from science to wealth. The notion that Jinnah was wrong is a fallacy to be avoided at all costs since it is being propagated to weaken Pakistan's foundation. We have to remember though that Azad was a learned man but he was talking only theoretically and only in his own constructed dreamland and had virtually no public support. While people were with Jinnah and were willing to die for him on streets. Since such political decisions have to e made on democratic principles not on some imagined theories, Jinnah was right on this and Azad was wrong. It is as simple as it gets. And even Allama Iqbal was of the view of creation of a nation for Muslims and I see him as a much greater theorist than Azad ever was. We should be very careful of these revisionist ideas that pop up from time to time. These do not serve anything for Pakistan except adding to Indian imagination and fantasy.



Brother you are so right these Incredible Indians are delusional they are trying to leave india and they are trying to tell us who was a better representative for us ie traitor Azad rather than Quaid 

Always the enemy loves quislings and Hindus have by their actions proved they are our enemies



Secur said:


> The shiny India ai'nt so shiny actually !



But yaar they want to leave it and they knock Pakistan to prove traitor Azad was a hero to us lol

Somebozo that was a good find lol



somebozo said:


>



Somebozo that was a good find lol



somebozo said:


>

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Secur

sandy_3126 said:


> It is obvious you won't understand India's freedom struggle, as it was a *India*'s freedom movement, whereas muslim league was a subservient to british entity.


 Enlighten me , about the first Governor General of India ?  ... Subservient ?  ... You guys became so much used to Farangi Raj that you asked the last Mountbatten to stay as the top most leader of your country ... Pretty rich coming from you guys freedom struggle and such ! What struggle are you referring to ?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ashokdeiva

somebozo said:


> Today India is ruled by an Italian woman and the president is subservient to America.


Atleast we know who is leading our nation and who is calling the shots, unlike your country no one knows who is in command neither the people of Pakistan nor the INTERNATIONAL leaders.
Forign dignitaries have a special problem when they visit Pakistan, they don't know whom to discuss with.


----------



## MilSpec

i am amazed at the height of stupidity here, calling and Indian leader traitor by pakistanis... he was not even pakistani, how the hell you label him a traitor... seems like people educated in england do not have the basic grasp of the language....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

Ignited Mind said:


> Seriously? You wanna bring the K word to this thread? Please bother sm1 else.



Reply My Post. I presented you some solid facts. Indians running away from facts. Indian muslims in 1946 elections voted Muslim league and Muslim league won 425 seasts out of 496..... Now tell me who was favourite among indian muslims at that time CONGRESS PRACTICING MUSLIM AZAD or MUSLIM LEAGUE NON PRACTICING JINNAH......

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jayron

The only reason Pakistanis love Jinnah is because he died before he could do anything. What I learn from Pakistan's history is, if he had continued any longer, Pakistanis would have started hating him and he would have been assassinated or hung by the army men. And from the little time he was in power, one could sense his aggressive nature from his role in the bloodshed during partition, his forceful imposition of Urdu on Pakistani masses and sending tribal men to brutalize Kashmir. 

So, he saved his face by dying early, before "achieving" much, there by still in the good books of most Pakistanis.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Peshwa

The fact that Azad is equally revered by Hindus and Muslims in present day India is enough proof of his charisma and greatness..

Jinnah...great in his own way...is popular among Muslim Pakistanis ONLY..
Of course us Indians are very thankful to him for seperating us from what in my mind was only added baggage that given present circumstances would have only dragged us down...

If it were me, I would rather be popular among all rather than a subsection of a community.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## longbrained

Aryan_B said:


> Brother you are so right these Incredible Indians are delusional they are trying to leave india and they are trying to tell us who was a better representative for us ie traitor Azad rather than Quaid
> 
> Always the enemy loves quislings and Hindus have by their actions proved they are our enemies
> 
> 
> 
> But yaar they want to leave it and they knock Pakistan to prove traitor Azad was a hero to us lol



What can we expect of them? They are brainwashed to hate us. People do not remember anymore but when Pakistan was made, Indian engineers stationed in air bases all over today's Pakistan before leaving had drilled holes in carbuerators of fighter jets stationed in Pakistan. It is just a small example. But it goes to say how deep their hatred was even on individual basis even among educated Indians back then. Forget about now that after all these years under communist rule and fascist BJP rule, they have become inbred haters of us. One has to see the truth to realize what they are doing and have done. But the miracle is we have matched them on every turn. And we will continue to fight back their hatred in future too.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ashokdeiva

Secur said:


> Enlighten me , about the first Governor General of India ?  ... Subservient ?  ... You guys became so much used to Farangi Raj that you asked the last Mountbatten to stay as the top most leader of your country ... Pretty rich coming from you guys freedom struggle and such ! What struggle are you referring to ?


No INDIAN leader was capable of managing the affires of a large nation at that time, so that we made him stay and learn how to Govern that is the reason we have a strong people elected civil government that is not toppled by power hungry Generals


----------



## longbrained

Aryan_B said:


> Brother you are so right these Incredible Indians are delusional they are trying to leave india and they are trying to tell us who was a better representative for us ie traitor Azad rather than Quaid
> 
> Always the enemy loves quislings and Hindus have by their actions proved they are our enemies
> 
> 
> 
> But yaar they want to leave it and they knock Pakistan to prove traitor Azad was a hero to us lol



What can we expect of them? They are brainwashed to hate us. People do not remember anymore but when Pakistan was made, Indian engineers stationed in air bases all over today's Pakistan before leaving had drilled holes in carbuerators of fighter jets stationed in Pakistan. It is just a small example. But it goes to say how deep their hatred was even on individual basis even among educated Indians back then. Forget about now that after all these years under communist rule and fascist BJP rule, they have become inbred haters of us. One has to see the truth to realize what they are doing and have done. But the miracle is we have matched them on every turn. And we will continue to fight back their hatred in future too.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bratva

* In the Constituent Assembly elections of 1946, the League won 425 out of 496 seats reserved for Muslims (and about 89.2% of Muslim votes) on a policy of creating an independent state of Pakistan*


*IN 1946 THERE WAS NO PAKISTANI MUSLIMS EXIST..... A REALITY CHECK FOR ABOVE INDIAN COMMENTS*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

*Why you Indians quite now eh?? you like hunting in packs and knocking Pakistan look in the mirror you shameless lot you are wanting leaving India yet our hero who took us away from the mess the toilet described below the great Quaid you want to compare to a nobody traitor like Azad who was a troll and bad mouthing and wishing Pakistan a failure is a hero *



Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to Indias politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the worlds hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. Indias Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. Indias rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under ALARMING category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the Indias planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Banks poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent  (and) consolidated fiscal deficit, says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that Indias GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysias $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are Other Backward Castes.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of Indias civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in Indias power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of Indias primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nations capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the worlds total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools dont have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of Indias schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, Indias spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of Indias GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of Indias GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to Indias national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber. says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an extensive surveillance society. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country consistently upholds human rights standards. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> Indias intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. Thats more than 70 %. Indias jails hold a disproportionate number of the countrys minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in Indias largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption. The State Department observes: There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths. Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. Others numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel  a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army dont allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of Indias urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India by the UNs special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. Its believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows  at least 40per cent are said to be under 50  are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehtas award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death  they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar, said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under Indias notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of Indias new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of Indias 602 districts  mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh  are badly affected by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as Maoist terror. Indias military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Armys budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by worlds weapon industry! India is now one of the worlds most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. Indias crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the countrys largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israels largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market, says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. Indias Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, Indias National Interest simply means their self Interest. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the worlds largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked worlds second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the worlds heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutvas security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nations land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the countrys 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesnt have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of Indias population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses  such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks  employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among Indias working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper,  says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhis image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capitals 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed crime capital of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> Indias share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEFs recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of developing and threshold countries, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesnt welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for red tapes and  corruption friendly service a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a hospitable country. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers  motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the worlds vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of Indias Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the countrys economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts Indias death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or invaders to India include few hired or weird Pakistani bombers, villagers around Indias border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is legally and morally fit to become Indias next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutvas fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by OutlookAC Nielsen shows that 46 % of Indias urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on National Pride of India?
> 
> India is the World Banks largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake India Shining propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britains aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality  of class, caste, wealth, religion  this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Secur

Tamizhan said:


> I think you know it. I will not explain.


 No No ... Please Go Ahead !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

sandy_3126 said:


> i am amazed at the height of stupidity here, calling and Indian leader traitor by pakistanis... he was not even pakistani, how the hell you label him a traitor... seems like people educated in england do not have the basic grasp of the language....



traitor to his Muslim people. Hero to his peoples enemy Indian Hindus



mafiya said:


> Reply My Post. I presented you some solid facts. Indians running away from facts. Indian muslims in 1946 elections voted Muslim league and Muslim league won 425 seasts out of 496..... Now tell me who was favourite among indian muslims at that time CONGRESS PRACTICING MUSLIM AZAD or MUSLIM LEAGUE NON PRACTICING JINNAH......



Bro they cant face truth these Indian Hindus

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ashokdeiva

Aryan_B said:


> Always the enemy loves quislings and Hindus have by their actions proved they are our enemies


There are over 20 % Muslims who live in INDIA and we do not hate Muslims or brand some one as enemy based on their faith. But on the other hand you yourself exposed what you guys think of HINDUS and you just accepted that HINDUS living in your nation are your enemy and you guys subjucate them for your personal ammusment.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Aryan_B said:


> This is what some of you inhuman Indians do with foetus
> 
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters.



A statement rather than study report?



> According to the *2001* census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.



We are in 2012 



> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)



How is this an example of inhuman Indians do with foetus?

Is there any proof suggesting that the abortion were done with a criminal intent to kill fetus?

Abortions are done for various reasons.



> *
> I wonder if that traitor to his people Azad knew this. Would he have changed his mind?*



Azad at that time was more bothered about colonial era divisions taking form even at time of independence.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Peshwa said:


> The fact that Azad is equally revered by Hindus and Muslims in present day India is enough proof of his charisma and greatness..
> 
> Jinnah...great in his own way...is popular among Muslim Pakistanis ONLY..
> Of course us Indians are very thankful to him for seperating us from what in my mind was only added baggage that given present circumstances would have only dragged us down...
> 
> If it were me, I would rather be popular among all rather than a subsection of a community.[/QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Indian Muslims are just pretending cos they scared you Hindus will kick them if they dont agree with you


----------



## Secur

ashokdeiva said:


> No INDIAN leader was capable of managing the affires of a large nation at that time, so that we made him stay and learn how to Govern that is the reason we have a strong people elected civil government that is not toppled by power hungry Generals


 Now are you implying that they were so incompetent not to handle the affairs of their country ? I would have understand if he was the head of some specific institution but seriously the head of the WHOLE FREAKING INDIA ! NO WAY ...

Doesn't matter ... We were always better under dictator rule

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sachin@india

mafiya said:


> Reply My Post. I presented you some solid facts. Indians running away from facts. Indian muslims in 1946 elections voted Muslim league and Muslim league won 425 seasts out of 496..... Now tell me who was favourite among indian muslims at that time CONGRESS PRACTICING MUSLIM AZAD or MUSLIM LEAGUE NON PRACTICING JINNAH......



 Congress boycotted the election 

More for you


----------



## MilSpec

Secur said:


> Enlighten me , about the first Governor General of India ?  ... Subservient ?  ... You guys became so much used to Farangi Raj that you asked the last Mountbatten to stay as the top most leader of your country ... Pretty rich coming from you guys freedom struggle and such ! What struggle are you referring to ?



how many of epic leaders of pakistan opposed the british, how many "muslim leader who adhered to concept of pakistan" fought against bristish occupation... you can see the list for your own embarrasment... 

muslim league ""Resolved that this meeting, composed of Musalmans from all parts of India, assembled at Dacca, decide that a Political Association be formed, styled All-India Muslim League, for the furtherance of the following objects:
(a) To promote, among the Musalmans of India, *feelings of loyalty to the British Governmen*t, and to remove any misconception that may arise as to the intention of Government with regard to any of its measures.
(b) To protect and advance the political rights and interests of the Musalmans of India, and to respectfully represent their needs and aspirations to the Government.
(c) To prevent the rise, among the Musalmans of India, of any feeling of hostility towards other communities, without prejudice to the aforementioned objects of the League.""


Apart from that;
From 1947 to 1956, Pakistan was a dominion in the Commonwealth of Nations. Pakistan has had two monarchs. In 1947, King George VI relinquished the title of Emperor of India, and became King of Pakistan. He remained King of Pakistan until his death on 6 February 1952. Upon his death, Queen Elizabeth II became Queen of Pakistan. 

Bravo patriots

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Aryan_B said:


> *traitor to his Muslim people*. Hero to his peoples enemy Indian Hindus



Indian Muslims would beg to differ , but the way , he was never yours to call him his.



> Bro they cant face truth these Indian Hindus



Your version of truth?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sachin@india

More for you


----------



## ashokdeiva

Secur said:


> Now are you implying that they were so incompetent not to handle the affairs of their country ? I would have understand if he was the head of some specific institution but seriously the head of the WHOLE FREAKING INDIA ! NO WAY ...
> 
> Doesn't matter ... We were always better under dictator rule


then enjoy your future in Detension by the Pakistani Army


----------



## lem34

*Look at how Indians treat their own religion people the untouchables. I wonder if that traitor to his people hero to the enemy of his people knew this: *


Discrimination against Dalits

Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## longbrained

sandy_3126 said:


> i am amazed at the height of stupidity here, calling and Indian leader traitor by pakistanis... he was not even pakistani, how the hell you label him a traitor... seems like people educated in england do not have the basic grasp of the language....



Because you do not understand Islam. He was a traitor not to land but to his people. I believe some day even Muslims in India will rise up in a Arab spring kind of movement and demand their full rights. You have been massacring them for a long time now eg. during artificial riots. You think they have forgotten. Just because they are gagged and can not talk does not mean they have forgotten. It is only a matter of time. India will break up eventually as my father always say. It is made of plethora of people who do not remotely match each other. Whether people in Assam, Kashmir, Muslims in Heydarabad, Sikhs, Bhudists and Hindus, north Indians and South Indians. The pot is still cooking. Rest assured of that.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Aryan_B said:


> Indian Muslims are just pretending cos they scared you Hindus will kick them if they dont agree with you



Are you the spokes person for Indian Muslims, who has talked to every Indian Muslims and taken their opinion?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## longbrained

sandy_3126 said:


> i am amazed at the height of stupidity here, calling and Indian leader traitor by pakistanis... he was not even pakistani, how the hell you label him a traitor... seems like people educated in england do not have the basic grasp of the language....



Because you do not understand Islam. He was a traitor not to land but to his people. I believe some day even Muslims in India will rise up in a Arab spring kind of movement and demand their full rights. You have been massacring them for a long time now eg. during artificial riots. You think they have forgotten. Just because they are gagged and can not talk does not mean they have forgotten. It is only a matter of time. India will break up eventually as my father always say. It is made of plethora of people who do not remotely match each other. Whether people in Assam, Kashmir, Muslims in Heydarabad, Sikhs, Bhudists and Hindus, north Indians and South Indians. The pot is still cooking. Rest assured of that.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> *Look at how Indians treat their own religion people the untouchables. I wonder if that traitor to his people hero to the enemy of his people knew this: *
> 
> 
> Discrimination against Dalits
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]



did someone remind you 1971...3 millions pakistanis were massacred by PA


----------



## Secur

sachin@india said:


> Congress boycotted the election
> 
> More for you



We dont give a rat's behind about what Najam Sethi has to say about anything ... We know where he gets the money from and where does his loyalty lies ! So stop playing these silly Youtube games ... Otherwise I can get you hundreds

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sachin@india

longbrained said:


> Because you do not understand Islam. He was a traitor not to land but to his people. I believe some day even Muslims in India will rise up in a Arab spring kind of movement and demand their full rights. You have been massacring them for a long time now eg. during artificial riots. You think they have forgotten. Just because they are gagged and can not talk does not mean they have forgotten. It is only a matter of time. India will break up eventually as my father always say. It is made of plethora of people who do not remotely match each other. Whether people in Assam, Kashmir, Muslims in Heydarabad, Sikhs, Bhudists and Hindus, north Indians and South Indians. The pot is still cooking. Rest assured of that.



i think you should into pakistan also..already happened...pakistan is not even what Jinnah had left


----------



## MilSpec

Secur said:


> The shiny India ai'nt so shiny actually !



Agreed , but still better than quite a few!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kavin

Tamizhan said:


> I think you know it. I will not explain.



What's the exact Tamil word for "quarantining" mate?


----------



## longbrained

Syama Ayas said:


> Are you the spokes person for Indian Muslims, who has talked to every Indian Muslims and taken their opinion?



Will he ever be allowed of that before RAW/IB comes in with an artificial riot and kills all the community he has talked to in an artificial riot? Is an Indian Muslim allowed to even talk against India without having to fear BJP thugs? The silence does not prove consent. Specially in a highly segmented, racist and caste role playing society like India which is by the way the only remaining nation in which still caste still plays a major role in life. Such is the sorry state of affair in India. The day Pakistan was made all castes died the same day. In India it only got stronger. Such is the difference.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## MilSpec

longbrained said:


> Because you do not understand Islam. He was a traitor not to land but to his people. I believe some day even Muslims in India will rise up in a Arab spring kind of movement and demand their full rights. You have been massacring them for a long time now eg. during artificial riots. You think they have forgotten. Just because they are gagged and can not talk does not mean they have forgotten. It is only a matter of time. India will break up eventually as my father always say. It is made of plethora of people who do not remotely match each other. Whether people in Assam, Kashmir, Muslims in Heydarabad, Sikhs, Bhudists and Hindus, north Indians and South Indians. The pot is still cooking. Rest assured of that.




I was amazed and I am still amazed... wake up dear,,, your wet dream isn't coming true

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Secur said:


> We dont give a rat's behind about what Najam Sethi has to say about anything ... We know where he gets the money from and where does his loyalty lies ! So stop playing these silly Youtube games ... Otherwise I can get you hundreds



 they will lie to show us that traitor to his people Azad was a hero but the person we recognise as a hero is not the Quaid

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## longbrained

sachin@india said:


> i think you should into pakistan also..already happened...pakistan is not even what Jinnah had left



English Please.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tamizhan

Kavin said:


> What's the exact Tamil word for "quarantining" mate?



Oora vittu odhukki vaikkaradhu...


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

longbrained said:


> Because you do not understand Islam.



Whose interpretation of Islam? Yours? we certainly never have to



> He was a traitor not to land but to his people.



Declared by you? 



> I believe some day even Muslims in India will rise up in a Arab spring kind of movement and demand their full rights.



They already have the full rights 




> You have been massacring them for a long time now eg. during artificial riots.



Riots are artificial now?




> You think they have forgotten. Just because they are *gagged* and can not talk does not mean they have forgotten.



gag in what way?




> It is only a matter of time. India will break up eventually as my father always say.



Did your father say anything about 1971?



> It is made of plethora of people who do not remotely match each other.



Many outsides say that.



> Whether people in Assam, Kashmir, Muslims in Heydarabad, Sikhs, Bhudists and Hindus, north Indians and South Indians. The pot is still cooking. Rest assured of that.



Entire India is cooking towards prosperity.



longbrained said:


> Because you do not understand Islam.



Whose interpretation of Islam? Yours? we certainly never have to



> He was a traitor not to land but to his people.



Declared by you? 



> I believe some day even Muslims in India will rise up in a Arab spring kind of movement and demand their full rights.



They already have the full rights 




> You have been massacring them for a long time now eg. during artificial riots.



Riots are artificial now?




> You think they have forgotten. Just because they are *gagged* and can not talk does not mean they have forgotten.



gag in what way?




> It is only a matter of time. India will break up eventually as my father always say.



Did your father say anything about 1971?



> It is made of plethora of people who do not remotely match each other.



Many outsides say that.



> Whether people in Assam, Kashmir, Muslims in Heydarabad, Sikhs, Bhudists and Hindus, north Indians and South Indians. The pot is still cooking. Rest assured of that.



Entire India is cooking towards prosperity.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Ignited Mind

mafiya said:


> A reality Check.
> 
> Jinnah charisma among indian muslims: 1946 General elections, Muslim League won "majority" of muslim seats. If Azad was a Mass leader of Muslims then how many muslim seats won by Indian congress Care to mention Mr.Genius?



You should have read my post more carefully, my fellow genius. 



mafiya said:


> Sarojini Naidu had called him (M.A. Jinnah) the 'ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity in 1916. Jinnah efforts Led to Congress and Muslim league joining hands in form of "Lucknow Pact". So 1940-1916 = 24 years. How the hell a man who has no following is being titled ambassador and bringing Major rival parties to negotiation table?. Mr Jinnah attended round table conference in 1930 or 1931. how come an unknown person attended the round table conference?



In those times, many people said many things. Like I have already pointed out, Jinnah was considered and in fact, was, very pliant to a compromise (before 1940). Later on, he hardened his stance. 

There's a difference between being a mass leader and being a showpiece. Jinnah was not a mass leader by that time. 

In fact, Jinnah was not acceptable to most Muslims because, obviously, how could a pork-eating, wine drinking, man who didn't even pray 5 times a day lay claim to being the leader of Muslims?

In fact, the very fact that Muslim League gpot drubbed by the Congress, literally, in elections shows how popular Jinnah was at the time. 




mafiya said:


> M.A.Jinnah: Show one criminal record of Jinnah that shows he was a criminal? AN ambassador of muslim hindu unity is considered more Peace loving then some Azad type Guy, Now that's a harsh reality.



It's not about being a criminal. It's about something being fishy when all your fellow freedom fighters are going to jail. Read ALL!

Nehru

Gandhi

Maulana Azad

Ashfaqullah Khan

Bhagat Singh

Subhas Chandra Bose

Lal Bahadur Shahstri

Lala Lajpat Rai. 

...and so on...

THEY WERE NOT CRIMINALS! They were freedom fighters. AND THEY ALL WENT TO JAIL. WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

The one so-called 'freedom fighter' who didn't go to jail, EVER!, was Jinnah. If this does not sounds fishy to you. You're not being impartial to your own thoughts. 

In those days, if you opposed the British, you were bound to land in jail. Jinnah didn't so Jinnah wasn't sent to Jail. 



mafiya said:


> Direct Action Day: Prove That Muslim league was behind Mass riots or Hindu Mob was not behind the Mass riots Calcutta.



Fact: Jinnah gave the call for Direct Action day.

Fact: Mass riots occured on direct action day and the days following that. Hundreds of people lost their lives.

I'm sorry, are you telling me that Jinnah was so ignorant that he didn't know what would something like a 'Direct Action' lead to in that tinderbox of a situation?



mafiya said:


> Mr. it is easy to make tall claims, so properly do research before opening your rotten mouth and brain.



Keep the f*lth coming. That gives me a better idea of where you are coming from. Helps me know you and what parenting you receieved

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Secur

sandy_3126 said:


> Apart from that;
> From 1947 to 1956, Pakistan was a dominion in the Commonwealth of Nations. Pakistan has had two monarchs. In 1947, King George VI relinquished the title of Emperor of India, and became King of Pakistan. He remained King of Pakistan until his death on 6 February 1952. Upon his death, Queen Elizabeth II became Queen of Pakistan.
> 
> Bravo patriots



King of Pakistan ?  Queen of Pakistan ?  Is it just like the " Democratic republic of Korea " thing ? 

What real say did he have in the matters of Pakistan ? 

*George relinquished the title of Emperor of India, and became King of India and King of Pakistan instead. He remained King of Pakistan until his death, but in 1950 he ceased to be King of India when it became a republic within the Commonwealth of Nations, and recognised his new title of Head of the Commonwealth.
*

Next time post the article as it is , without any editing

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

*Back to topic, come on guys all week you have been talking about how Azad was great and that Pakistan was stuffed My god you even brought up 1971. we kept quite. You then swear at us. And now you cant handle it when we present evidence which if it had been available to Mr Azad he would have bowed to thee great Quaid. Tell me are you questioning any of these statistics or what the Indian dalit is saying that you all want to get out of India?? Or you accept the error of your ways?? *



Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to Indias politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the worlds hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. Indias Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. Indias rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under ALARMING category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the Indias planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Banks poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent  (and) consolidated fiscal deficit, says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that Indias GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysias $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are Other Backward Castes.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of Indias civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in Indias power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of Indias primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nations capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the worlds total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools dont have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of Indias schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, Indias spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of Indias GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of Indias GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to Indias national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber. says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an extensive surveillance society. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country consistently upholds human rights standards. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> Indias intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. Thats more than 70 %. Indias jails hold a disproportionate number of the countrys minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in Indias largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption. The State Department observes: There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths. Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. Others numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel  a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army dont allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> Indias subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from through a shrewd process of manipulation. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of Indias urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India by the UNs special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. Its believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows  at least 40per cent are said to be under 50  are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehtas award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death  they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar, said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under Indias notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of Indias new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of Indias 602 districts  mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh  are badly affected by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as Maoist terror. Indias military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Armys budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by worlds weapon industry! India is now one of the worlds most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. Indias crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the countrys largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israels largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market, says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. Indias Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, Indias National Interest simply means their self Interest. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the worlds largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked worlds second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the worlds heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutvas security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nations land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the countrys 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesnt have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of Indias population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses  such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks  employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among Indias working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper,  says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhis image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capitals 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed crime capital of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> Indias share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEFs recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of developing and threshold countries, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesnt welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for red tapes and  corruption friendly service a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a hospitable country. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers  motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the worlds vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of Indias Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the countrys economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts Indias death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or invaders to India include few hired or weird Pakistani bombers, villagers around Indias border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is legally and morally fit to become Indias next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutvas fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by OutlookAC Nielsen shows that 46 % of Indias urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on National Pride of India?
> 
> India is the World Banks largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake India Shining propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britains aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality  of class, caste, wealth, religion  this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India


----------



## Secur

Kavin said:


> What's the exact Tamil word for "quarantining" mate?


 Quarantining Muslims probably ?  ... You can ask in 20 different languages but the meaning it will give will remain the same ... So good luck trying to hide your hatred towards Muslims ...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## humanfirst

longbrained said:


> I think Azad was living in a dreamland. *The massacre of Muslims in India even today* proves that fact.


Sorry you must have got the nation's name wrong..Today's massacre was in pakistan where 8 minority sect muslims were massacred in cold blood.Last time i heard of a muslim massacre in India was in a riot a decade ago where both hindus and muslims were killed,which was started by muslim nutjobs burning some 50 hindus alive(i am not justifying the barbaric riots but giving the perspective).On the other hand in land of pure todays shia massacre was 6th or 7th incident of this type* in this year olone*..So much for the practicality of jinnah's vision..

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bratva

Ignited Mind said:


> You should have read my post more carefully, my fellow genius.
> 
> 
> 
> In those times, many people said many things. Like I have already pointed out, Jinnah was considered and in fact, was, very pliant to a compromise (before 1940). Later on, he hardened his stance.
> 
> There's a difference between being a mass leader and being a showpiece. Jinnah was not a mass leader by that time.
> 
> In fact, Jinnah was not acceptable to most Muslims because, obviously, how could a pork-eating, wine drinking, man who didn't even pray 5 times a day lay claim to being the leader of Muslims?
> 
> In fact, the very fact that Muslim League gpot drubbed by the Congress, literally, in elections shows how popular Jinnah was at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about being a criminal. It's about something being fishy when all your fellow freedom fighters are going to jail. Read ALL!
> 
> Nehru
> 
> Gandhi
> 
> Maulana Azad
> 
> Ashfaqullah Khan
> 
> Bhagat Singh
> 
> Subhas Chandra Bose
> 
> Lal Bahadur Shahstri
> 
> Lala Lajpat Rai.
> 
> ...and so on...
> 
> THEY WERE NOT CRIMINALS! They were freedom fighters. AND THEY ALL WENT TO JAIL. WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
> 
> The one so-called 'freedom fighter' who didn't go to jail, EVER!, was Jinnah. If this does not sounds fishy to you. You're not being impartial to your own thoughts.
> 
> In those days, if you opposed the British, you were bound to land in jail. Jinnah didn't so Jinnah wasn't sent to Jail.
> 
> 
> 
> Fact: Jinnah gave the call for Direct Action day.
> 
> Fact: Mass riots occured on direct action day and the days following that. Hundreds of people lost their lives.
> 
> I'm sorry, are you telling me that Jinnah was so ignorant that he didn't know what would something like a 'Direct Action' lead to in that tinderbox of a situation?
> 
> 
> 
> Keep the f*lth coming. That gives me a better idea of where you are coming from. Helps me know you and what parenting you receieved




First of all. I suggest you go read up some Neutral history books...... Let me give you indians a HISTORY lesson.

*ALL THE INDIAN LEADERS WHO WENT TO JAILS WERE BECAUSE INIDAN CONGRESS CALLED A MAJOR PROTEST AND STRIKE AGAINST BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND MUSLIM LEAGUE REFUSED TO FOLLOW INDIAN CONGRESS AT THAT TIME BY SAYING THEY WILL REMAIN PEACEFUL AND WILL SOLVE PROBLEMS THORIGH NEGOTIATIONS. SO NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM LEAGUE LEADER WENT TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY REMAIN PEACEFUL *

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tamizhan

I think the 34 Hazaras killed in cold blood in the last two weeks would not have agreed with Jinnah for sure.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ignited Mind

mafiya said:


> First of all. I suggest you go read up some Neutral history books...... Let me give you indians a HISTORY lesson.
> 
> *ALL THE INDIAN LEADERS WHO WENT TO JAILS WERE BECAUSE INIDAN CONGRESS CALLED A MAJOR PROTEST AND STRIKE AGAINST BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND MUSLIM LEAGUE REFUSED TO FOLLOW INDIAN CONGRESS AT THAT TIME BY SAYING THEY WILL REMAIN PEACEFUL AND WILL SOLVE PROBLEMS THORIGH NEGOTIATIONS. SO NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM LEAGUE LEADER WENT TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY REMAIN PEACEFUL *



OOOOKKKAAAYYYY.

I lose. You win. 

May this help you sleep better.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

longbrained said:


> Will he ever be allowed of that before RAW/IB comes in with an artificial riot and kills all the community he has talked to in an artificial riot?



I mentioned all Indian Muslims, unless you are saying that RAW/IB is capable of killing all Indian Muslims in an artificial riot, you"re statement makes zero sense.




> Is an Indian Muslim allowed to even talk against India without having to fear BJP thugs?



You can ask every Indian Muslims all over India, or few Indian Muslims members here.




> The silence does not prove consent. Specially in a highly segmented, racist and caste role playing society like India which is by the way the only remaining nation in which still caste still plays a major role in life.



Caste significance is not specific to India.

Race, Caste, and Other Invidious Distinctions in Social Stratification



> Such is the sorry state of affair in India. The day Pakistan was made all castes died the same day.



Pakistan Certainly Has a Caste System



> I received many letters from Pakistan in fall 1989 about a lohar, or blacksmith, who was riddled with more than 80 AK-47 bullets in Taien village in the Poonch District of Azad Kashmir because he married a higher caste woman. Later, the woman was also killed because society would not accept her. I believe that Lubna Suhail must know well about such a caste system in Pakistan.






> In India it only got stronger. Such is the difference.



Castes got stronger? Yes the lower caste people do have better rights prior what existed in the British era for sure.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lem34

humanfirst said:


> Sorry you must have got the nation's name wrong..Today's massacre was in pakistan where 8 minority sect muslims were massacred in cold blood.Last time i heard of a muslim massacre in India was in a riot a decade ago where both hindus and muslims were killed,which was started by muslim nutjobs burning some 50 hindus alive(i am not justifying the barbaric riots but giving the perspective).On the other hand in land of pure todays shia massacre was 6th or 7th incident of this type* in this year olone*..So much for the practicality of jinnah's vision..



What you talking about, That Modi that cant get a visa for America for being complicit in murder you want him as your leader you and your hindutva brigade



mafiya said:


> First of all. I suggest you go read up some Neutral history books...... Let me give you indians a HISTORY lesson.
> 
> *ALL THE INDIAN LEADERS WHO WENT TO JAILS WERE BECAUSE INIDAN CONGRESS CALLED A MAJOR PROTEST AND STRIKE AGAINST BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND MUSLIM LEAGUE REFUSED TO FOLLOW INDIAN CONGRESS AT THAT TIME BY SAYING THEY WILL REMAIN PEACEFUL AND WILL SOLVE PROBLEMS THORIGH NEGOTIATIONS. SO NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM LEAGUE LEADER WENT TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY REMAIN PEACEFUL *



They were terrorists or if they were not then Kashmiri freedom fighters are just that

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

Tamizhan said:


> I think the 34 Hazaras killed in cold blood in the last two weeks would not have agreed with Jinnah for sure.



Muslims who killed in Samjhouta express blast or in Babri Mosque or in 2010 Kashmir protests would not agree with MOULANA AZAD SAAB EITHER

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

mafiya said:


> First of all. I suggest you go read up some Neutral history books...... Let me give you indians a HISTORY lesson.
> 
> *ALL THE INDIAN LEADERS WHO WENT TO JAILS WERE BECAUSE INIDAN CONGRESS CALLED A MAJOR PROTEST AND STRIKE AGAINST BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND MUSLIM LEAGUE REFUSED TO FOLLOW INDIAN CONGRESS AT THAT TIME BY SAYING THEY WILL REMAIN PEACEFUL AND WILL SOLVE PROBLEMS THORIGH NEGOTIATIONS. SO NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM LEAGUE LEADER WENT TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY REMAIN PEACEFUL *



provide e-book links to those neutral history books. The above remain an opinion or conjecture to most , without any source



mafiya said:


> Muslims who killed in Samjhouta express blast or in Babri Mosque or in 2010 Kashmir protests would not agree with MOULANA AZAD SAAB EITHER



How can dead people have an opinion?


----------



## Tamizhan

mafiya said:


> Muslims who killed in Samjhouta express blast or in Babri Mosque or in 2010 Kashmir protests would not agree with MOULANA AZAD SAAB EITHER



If you take a count of all the Muslims killed in Pakistan post-independence I guess Jinnah is going to loose very badly.


----------



## longbrained

Syama Ayas said:


> Whose interpretation of Islam? Yours? we certainly never have to
> 
> 
> 
> Declared by you?
> 
> 
> 
> They already have the full rights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Riots are artificial now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gag in what way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did your father say anything about 1971?
> 
> 
> 
> Many outsides say that.
> 
> 
> 
> Entire India is cooking towards prosperity.
> 
> 
> 
> Whose interpretation of Islam? Yours? we certainly never have to
> 
> 
> 
> Declared by you?
> 
> 
> 
> They already have the full rights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Riots are artificial now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gag in what way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did your father say anything about 1971?
> 
> 
> 
> Many outsides say that.
> 
> 
> 
> Entire India is cooking towards prosperity.



1-As per our Prophet. He never approved of a Muslim community being ruled over by some one who has 5000 idols as god. 

2-Declared a traitor by all those majority who voted for Jinnah. 

3-If Muslims have the full right then why they have not been able to put that terrorist Modi behind bars? Why rioters kill them on regular basis? Why they lag behind in education terms? Why they are not represented in top brass of security apparatus? Why they do not have a political party of their own which plays a major role in Indian politics? etc etc. (by the way it is not only muslims that do not have rights eg. Dalits are treated worse than animals in India)

4-When riots are instigated by those sitting at power and have a seat in government then they are called artificial. 

5-Gag in the sense that they can not dissent without being killed and maimed. 

6-My father still remembers that day and how Indian agents had brought that disaster as today they are now after Jinnah and the foundation of Pakistan. At the time all Pakistan was poor. A poor in NWFP was no different than a poor in Bengal. But alas an Indian agent by the name of Mujeeb had done his training well. 

7-It is a well known fact that India is made up of non-reconciling nations. Out side or Inside. Lower caste or upper caste. 

8-Entire India is going towards break up. As people get more aware that is inevitable. They would want their share in political power structure dominated by few high caste Indians. Even the seemingly apparent increased in wealth creation is not going to help since with increased wealth comes the increased desire to have a share in political future of one's kinship. That means Muslims would want their own political parties and Sikhs their own. Congress with a white woman at its head can not represent all.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Bratva

the Quit India Movement (Hindi: &#2349;&#2366;&#2352;&#2340; &#2331;&#2379;&#2337;&#2364;&#2379; &#2310;&#2344;&#2381;&#2342;&#2379;&#2354;&#2344; Bh&#257;rat Choddo &#256;ndolan), or the August Movement (August Kranti) was a civil disobedience movement launched in India in August 1942.

Sporadic small-scale violence took place around the country but the British arrested tens of thousands of leaders, keeping them imprisoned until 1945


Muslim leaders opposed Quit India. *Muhammad Ali Jinnah's opposition to the call led to large numbers of Muslims *cooperating with the British, and enlisting in the army.[7] The Muslim League gained large numbers of new members. Congress members resigned from provincial legislatures, enabling the League to take control in Sindh, Bengal and Northwest Frontier

Quit India Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*
ALl my posts are back up with facts and figures showing who was popular among INDIAN MUSLIMS. I challenge Imbecilic Indians to refute my facts and figures and show me MULANA AZAD was revered among INIDNA MUSLIMS before 1947 *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kavin

Secur said:


> Quarantining Muslims probably ?  ... You can ask in 20 different languages but the meaning it will give will remain the same ... So good luck trying to hide your hatred towards Muslims ...



Do u think only people living in Pakistan are Muslims? 
Here, in India, we have CRORE of Muslims following Quran..


> &#8220;&#8230;There is no compulsion in religion&#8230;&#8221; (Quran 2:256)



Q*uarantining is aboubt INTOLERANT Muslims*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Aryan_B said:


> What you talking about, That Modi that cant get a visa for America for being complicit in murder you want him as your leader you and your hindutva brigade



We have our share bad apples,



> They were terrorists or if they were not then Kashmiri freedom fighters are just that



Your sentence seems to convey no meaning


----------



## MilSpec

Syama Ayas said:


> I mentioned all Indian Muslims, unless you are saying that RAW/IB is capable of killing all Indian Muslims in an artificial riot, you"re statement makes zero sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can ask every Indian Muslims all over India, or few Indian Muslims members here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caste significance is not specific to India.
> 
> Race, Caste, and Other Invidious Distinctions in Social Stratification
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Certainly Has a Caste System
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Castes got stronger? Yes the lower caste people do have better rights prior what existed in the British era for sure.





Mualana's vision cannot be comprehended post partition due to moral bankruptcy on both sides. 

Jinnah was the greatest leader of pakistan, even Indians are proud of him. 

Mualana and jinnah had different viewpoints, exactly opposite i might add...

Both nations developed lack of visionary leader post partitions, none of political parties adhered to vision of patriots who laid down there lives. 

On this thread, we are just slinging mud on each other, and more importantly on two great proponents of India's and pakistans history.

Maulana did not oppose existence of pakistan, he opposed division of India, he opposed 200 different states carved out of india, not just pakistan. Calling a true patriot and leader whose vision is incomprehensible by a few irresponsible/unware members is appalling.


----------



## Tamizhan

longbrained said:


> 8-Entire India is going towards break up. As people get more aware that is inevitable. They would want their share in political power structure dominated by few high caste Indians. Even the seemingly apparent increased in wealth creation is not going to help since with increased wealth comes the increased desire to have a share in political future of one's kinship. That means Muslims would want their own political parties and Sikhs their own. Congress with a white woman at its head can not represent all.



I dont want to go into the rest of your post. But rest assured if Sikhs were to form a Khalistan they are ultimately not settling for it without Lahore as their national capital.


----------



## somebozo

ashokdeiva said:


> Do you know how a magician can make a huge object disappear and reappear for a large audiance, its just *misdirections*
> and because Muslims got mis directed that they can be NAVABS in their own land and if they stay along with INDIA will be sujucated by Hindus is the best mis direction that let to the divide and the subsequent death of countless lives and the present pathetic state of PAKISTAN because the same people who thought they will be NAVABS in their own land do not own land in PAKISTAN but the land of PAKISTAN is now owned by the blood line of the people who mis directed the MUSLIMS



The same can be said about India...congress party is still ruling and looting the country.


----------



## lem34

*Why is it that you Indians want to discuss everything other than the statistics from the govt of India and UN etc. Why? They prove that we were lucky. Quaid was a hero to his people. Azad may be a hero to his peoples enemies. These stats prove that India is a country that never mind Muslims even Indian's don't want to live in *



Aryan_B said:


> I put this post up a few days ago. I have been restrained as I watch Indians come on here and use anything from 1971 war and the current terrorism in Pakistan as an excuse why Mr Azad was correct and Quaid-e-Azam was wrong. Last night for the above post I was rewarded by an Indian swearing at me for stating the above. Some of the same people who are being ever so polite with Oscar this morning thanked him for swearing at me.
> 
> That swearing post has been deleted. However I want to ask all on here whatever nationality they may hold what Mr Azad or Mr Jinnah would have thought of the following that has been written by an Indian Dalit some 6o odd years later.
> 
> Of course Mr Azad would say that Pakistan would be a failure after all what would one expect other than a self serving statement. He to me was like Chamberlin the British Prime Minister that wanted peace at any cost with Hitler.
> 
> I believe this statement by a Dalit using statistics either from the Indian govt or UN agencies speaks volumes and buries the argument that Mr Azad was correct and vindicates absolutely the great Quaid
> 
> 
> Pakistan is by no means free from problems. This has been adequately addressed by Indians coming on this thread and we are made to feel that we are a failed state etc. of course this is upsetting even though it is far from the truth.
> 
> On the other hand we would be forgiven for thinking that India really is Incredible, they real are shining and super power designate. Oh how much we have missed by the formation of Pakistan
> 
> I would like to thank Allah, thank Quaid-e-Azam and the sacrifices of our forefathers in founding Pakistan. If Pakistan was still with India we would have been a part of all this and I would be stateless:
> 
> *A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> Echoing an ordinary dream of 900 million poor people of India*
> 
> 
> 
> Why 1 million Indians Escape from India every year?
> 
> *Non Resident Indian Population around the globe*
> 
> Any crackdown on illegal immigrants abroad or restricting quotas to Indians are a major concern to India&#8217;s politicians. The latest statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000! Ever wondered why Indians migrate to another countries but no one comes to India for a living? Here are some Indian facts:
> 
> *Poverty Graph*
> 
> According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the world&#8217;s hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. India&#8217;s Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. India&#8217;s rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and India is listed under &#8220;ALARMING&#8221; category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India
> 
> Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India&#8217;s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank&#8217;s poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].
> *
> The Current Account Balance of India*
> 
> &#8220;A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent &#8230; (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,&#8221; says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.
> 
> According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]
> 
> *Human Development vs GDP growth*
> 
> The Human Development Report for 2009 released by the UNDP ranked India 134 out of 182 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. India has an emigration rate of 0.8%. The major continent of destination for migrants from India is Asia with 72.0% of emigrants living there. The report found that India&#8217;s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $2,753, far below Malaysia&#8217;s $13,518. China listed as 92 with PPP of $5383. Read the statistics from UNDP website.
> 
> Population:
> 
> According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are &#8220;Other Backward Castes&#8221;.
> 
> 15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India&#8217;s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in India&#8217;s power structure. Going by figures quoted by the Backward Classes Commission, Brahmins alone account for 37.17 per cent of the bureaucracy. [Who is Really Ruling India?]
> 
> The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of India&#8217;s primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!
> 
> *Living conditions of Indians*
> 
> 89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation&#8217;s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]
> 
> According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.
> 
> *Education*
> 
> India has over 35 per cent of the world&#8217;s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)
> 
> About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools don&#8217;t have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of India&#8217;s schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.
> 
> Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people. In the prestigious Academic Ranking of World Universities by Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong, only two Indian Universities are included. Even those two IITs in India found only a lower slot (203-304) in 2007 report. Although Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.
> 
> *Health*
> 
> India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India&#8217;s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001] India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.
> 
> 107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.
> 
> There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem. According to a survey by NSSO (National Sample Survey Organisation), 40 per cent of the people hospitalised have either had to borrow money or sell assets to cover their medical expenses. Over 85 per cent of the Indian population does not have any form of health coverage.
> 
> Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]
> 
> *Economy under the siege of Elite Hindus*
> 
> In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India&#8217;s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India&#8217;s GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!
> 
> The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.
> 
> India is also one of the most under-banked major markets in the world with only 6 bank branches per 1,000 sq kms, according to the World Bank, and less than 31% of the population has access to a bank account. According to India&#8217;s national agency, (NABARD), around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries.
> *
> Corruption
> *
> According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. &#8220;Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber.&#8221; says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]
> 
> *Discrimination against Dalits*
> 
> Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]
> 
> *Human Rights*
> 
> When it comes to Human Rights issues in India, it is not ratified the UN Convention against Torture, its citizens do not have the opportunity to find recourse in remedies that are available under international law. The victims are trapped with the local Hindu caste system, which in every aspect militates against their rights.
> 
> India has a very poor record of protecting the privacy of its citizens, according to the latest report from Privacy International (PI). India scored 1.9 points, which makes it an &#8216;extensive surveillance society&#8217;. A score between 4.1 and 5.0 (the highest score) would mean a country &#8220;consistently upholds human rights standards&#8221;. PI is a watchdog on surveillance and privacy invasions by governments and corporations. [Fake encounter killings are rampant in India. This extra judicial killings are inspired by theological texts of Brahmins like Artha Shastra and Manusmriti which teaches espionage and torture methods. Every such killing of an innocent person, branded a terrorist, has encouraged the killer cops to target socially excluded communities like dalits, tribals and minorities.
> 
> India&#8217;s intelligence agencies like IB, RAW, etc seems to be thoroughly infiltrated by foreign secret services which support powerful weapon producing nations. Formed in 1947, IB is engaged in wiretapping, spy on political opponents and sometimes indicting on false criminal charges. The IB also has numerous authors, bloggers and media persons.
> 
> According to the National Human Rights Commission, as on 30th June 2004, there were 3,32,112 prisoners in Indian jails out of which 2,39,146 were under trial prisoners. That&#8217;s more than 70 %. India&#8217;s jails hold a disproportionate number of the country&#8217;s minority Muslims, a sign of discrimination and alienation from the Hindu majority. The bar association in India&#8217;s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, has refused to represent 13 Muslim suspects accused bombing courthouses in 2005 . A large part of police officers, Indian attorneys and judges appear regularly on the events organized by notorious Hindu militant groups. Prison statistics of Indian Jails can be seen from National Crime Record Bureau, here
> 
> India is a parliamentary democracy, but rather less than a fully free society. The human rights group Freedom House ranks India as a 2 (on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 the highest) for political rights and 3 for civil liberties. Elections are generally free but, notes Freedom House, &#8220;Government effectiveness and accountability are also undermined by pervasive criminality in politics, decrepit state institutions, and widespread corruption.&#8221; The State Department observes: &#8220;There were numerous reports that the government and its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings, including extrajudicial killings of suspected criminals and insurgents, or staged encounter deaths.&#8221; Read Freedom House Report from here.
> 
> *Minorities*
> 
> About 20 %, or 200 million, are religious minorities. Muslims constitutes 138 million or 13.4 5, Christians 24 million or 2.3 %, Sikhs 19 million or 2 %, Buddhists 8 million or 0.8 % and Jains 4 million or 0.4 %. &#8220;Others&#8221; numbered 6.6 million or 0.6 %. According to Mr. Tahir Mahmood, an Indian Muslim journalist, &#8220;The 2.3 % Christians in the Indian population cater to 20 % of all primary education in India, 10 % of all the literacy and community health care, 25 % of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30 % of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients etc&#8221;.
> 
> *Discrimination against Minority Muslims*
> 
> Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel &#8212; a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims&#8217; 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don&#8217;t allow head count based on religion.
> 
> A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, &#8216;there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.&#8217;
> 
> *Discrimination in Media*
> 
> Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.
> 
> The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006
> *
> Discrimination in Judiciary*
> 
> India&#8217;s subordinate courts have a backlog of over 22 million cases while the 21 high courts and the Supreme Court have 3.5 million and 32,000 pending cases (2006). In subordinate courts, over 15 million cases are filed and an equal number disposed of annually by about 14,000 judges! Every year a million or more cases are added to the arrears. At the current speed, the lower courts may take 124 years for clearing the backlog. There were only 13 judges for every million people.
> 
> Recently a parliamentary committee blamed the judiciary for keeping out competent persons of downtrodden communities from &#8220;through a shrewd process of manipulation&#8221;. Between 1950 to 2000, 47% of Chief Justices and 40% of Judges were of Brahmin origin!. Dalits and Indian aborigines are lesser than 20 out of 610 judges working in Supreme Court and state high Courts. &#8220;This nexus and manipulative judicial appointments have to be broken, it urged&#8221;. [Parliamentary standing committee report on Constitutional Review, Sudarshan Nachiappan]. Among 12 states with high-Muslim population, Muslim representation in judicial sector is limited to 7.8%. (Justice Sachar Report).
> 
> According to the National Crime Records Bureau, only 31 per cent criminal trials are completed in less than a year. Some take even more than 10 years. According to its study, Crime in India 2002, nearly 220,000 cases took more than 3 years to reach court, and about 25,600 exhausted 10 years before they were completed. The term of the Liberhan Commission, formed 14 years ago to probe the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya and originally given a mandate of three months, has been extended again!
> 
> *Discrimination against Children*
> 
> According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of India&#8217;s urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.
> 
> The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report &#8216;Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India&#8217; by the UN&#8217;s special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.
> 
> *Discrimination against Women
> *
> According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.
> 
> There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It&#8217;s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows &#8211; at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 &#8211; are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta&#8217;s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.
> 
> Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.
> 
> On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death &#8211; they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.
> 
> Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]
> *
> Fetus Killing
> *
> Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.
> 
> Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)
> 
> *Human Trafficking*
> 
> Out of the 593 districts in India, 378 or 62.5 % are affected by human trafficking. In 2006, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored study conducted by Shakti Vahini, found that domestic violence, illiteracy, unemployment, poverty; unsafe migration and child marriage are the major reasons for the increasing rate of illegal human trafficking.
> 
> 95 % of the women in Madhya Pradesh in commercial sex are due to family traditions. So are 51.79 % in Bihar,&#8217; said the study. While 43 % of the total women trafficked are minors, 44 percent of the women are into flesh trade due to poverty. Of the total women who are into sex work in the country, 60 % are from the lower and backward class, which indicates the pathetic living condition of the communities. In Madhya Pradesh, a political bastion of Hindu right wing party, 96.7 % of the women sex workers are from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
> 
> India has 4 million prostitutes nationwide and 60% of the prostitutes are from the Scheduled Castes and Tribes or other backward caste. UNAIDS says over 38% of those living with HIV in India are women.
> 
> *High Crime Rate and Communal Riots*
> 
> India reported 32,481 murders, 19,348 rapes, 7,618 dowry deaths and 36,617 molestation cases in 2006. As far as states are concerned, NCRB has found that Madhya Pradesh recorded the highest number of crimes (1,94,711) followed by Maharashtra (1,91,788), Andhra Pradesh (1,73,909), Tamil Nadu (1,48,972) and Rajasthan (1,41,992) during 2006. According to National Crime Records Bureau, there was 1822602 riots in 2005 alone. [ Incidence Of Cognizable Crimes (IPC) Under Different Crime Heads, concluded, Page 2] NCRB website
> 
> On average there are more than 2000 cases of kidnappings per year in India. Under India&#8217;s notorious caste system, upper caste Hindus inherited key positions and controls all the governmental branches. Violence against victims largely goes unpunished due to the support of upper caste crooks.
> 
> *Economic Crimes*
> 
> Economic Crime continues to be pervasive threat for Indian Companies, with 35 % of the organizations reporting having experienced fraud in the past two years according to PwC Global Economic Crime Survey 2007. Many incidents of fraud are going unreported. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers&#8217; India findings:
> 
> * Corruption and Bribery continues to be the most common type of fraud reported by 20 % of the respondents;
> * The average direct financial loss to companies was INR 60 Million (US $ 1.5 million) during the two year period. In addition the average cost to manage economic crime in India was INR 40 Million (US $ 1 Million) which is close to double that of the global and Asia Pacific average;
> * In 36% of cases companies took no action against the perpetrators of fraud;
> * In 50% of the cases frauds were detected by chance. [PWC Report 2007]
> 
> *Armed Conflicts in India*
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> &#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)
> *
> Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector*
> 
> In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.
> 
> Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.
> 
> 76 per cent of the nation&#8217;s land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]
> 
> 70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.
> 
> *Unemployment*
> 
> Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country&#8217;s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn&#8217;t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.
> 
> Retail trade employs 8 percent of India&#8217;s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]
> 
> Call centers and other outsourced businesses &#8212; such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks &#8212; employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India&#8217;s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.
> *
> Internal Migration and influx to the cities*
> 
> Mumbai, the commercial capital of India is projected to grow into a city of about 21.9 million by the year 2015 and currently is plagued by vast poverty due to influx from villages. There are 5 million living on the street every night, covered only in newspaper, &#8221; says Dr. Werner Fornos, president of the Global Population Education think tank and the former head of the Population Institute in Washington, D.C.
> 
> India is spending more than $400 million (£200m) to polish Delhi&#8217;s image as a first-rate capital, a difficult task for a city that seems to exist between the first and third worlds. A third of the capital&#8217;s 14 million-plus people live in teeming slums. According to crime statistics of 2006, Delhi continues to be the undisputed &#8216;crime capital&#8217; of the country for the past 5 years in a row. 35 mega cities in India collectively reported a total of 3,26,363 cognizable crimes in 2006, an increase of 3.7% over 2005. Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore together accounted for more than one-third of all crimes reported in Indian cities having a population of over a million people, for the second year in a row.
> 
> *India, a closed country*
> 
> India&#8217;s share in world tourism map, was hovering between 0.38% to 0.39% for number of years. Irrespective of its huge area and beautiful nature, the foreign exchange earned from tourism was merely $2.61 billion (2006). India, scored only 4.14 out of seven in The WEF&#8217;s recently released Travel and Tourism Competitive Index (TTCI2007). Among 124 countries listed, Switzerland ranked highest while India was placed at 65th rank, which is far below of Malaysia (ranked 31). India was also listed at the bottom of &#8216;developing and threshold countries&#8217;, which listed Tunisia at 34th place.
> 
> Indian immigration doesn&#8217;t welcome foreigners to visit India . [VISA requirements, T&T index, India ranked 106, while Malaysia ranked 15 . VOA facilities are not available to anyone. The easier entry to India virtually limited to countries with considerable Hindu population like Mauritius or Nepal. The Hindu elite leaders of the country always concerned about India's physical boundaries and its holy cows rather than the life of its 85 % poor people. To them, the national interest means their own economical or political interests.
> 
> Indian Embassies are rated as the worst service providers around the globe. They are notorious for &#8216;red tapes&#8216; and &#8216; corruption friendly service&#8216; a complaint repeatedly quoted by Non Resident Indians itself. 90 % of Indian businessman believes that India has yet to emerge as a &#8220;hospitable country&#8221;. ASSOCHAM
> 
> *Global Warming effects in India*
> 
> Water tables are dropping where farmers are lucky enough to have wells, and rainfall has become increasingly unpredictable. Economic loss due to global warming in India is estimated between 9-25%. GDP loss may be to the tune of 0.67%. Prediction of loss of wheat is more. Rabi crops will be worse hit which threatens food security. Drought and flood intensity will increase.100-cm sea level rise can lead to welfare loss of $1259 million in India equivalent to 0.36% of GNP. Frequencies and intensities of tropical cyclones in Bay of Bengal will increase. Malaria will be accelerated to an endemic in many more sates. 20% rise in summer monsoon rainfall. Extreme temperatures and precipitations are expected to increase. [Sir Nicholas Stern Report] India got the most foreign aid for natural disaster relief in two decades obtaining 43 such loans of $8,257 million from World Bank alone beating down even Bangladesh and has the 2nd highest loan in the world.
> 
> *Transportation*
> 
> Despite the much touted economic boom, only 0.8 percent of Indians own a car most are on foot, motorbikes, or carts. And of all the vehicles sold in India from April to November of last year, 77 percent were two-wheelers &#8211; motorcycles, mopeds, or scooters. China has built over 34,000 km of expressways, compared to less than 8,000 km in India. According to Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ASSOCHAM), nearly 42o million man hours are lost every month by the 7 million -odd working population of Delhi and NCR who take the public transport to travel to work because of traffic congestion during the peak morning and evening hours. India is having only less than 1% of the world&#8217;s vehicle population.
> 
> *Road Safety*
> 
> India accounts for about 10 percent of road accident fatalities worldwide and the figures are the highest in the world. Indian roads are poorly constructed, traffic signals, pedestrian pavements and proper signage almost nonexistent. The other reasons are encroachments, lack of parking facility and ill-equipped and untrained traffic police, corruption and poor traffic culture. An estimated 1,275,000 persons are grievously injured on the road every year. Social cost of annual accidents in India has been estimated at $ 11,000. The Government of India&#8217;s Planning Commission has estimated there to be 15 hospitalised injuries and 70 minor injuries for every road death.
> 
> According to NATPAC, The number of accidents for 1000 vehicles in India is as high as 35 while the figure ranges from 4 to 10 in developed countries. An estimated 270 people die each day from road accidents, and specialists predict that will increase by roughly 5 percent a year. Accidents also cause an estimated loss of Rs 8000 million to the country&#8217;s economy. About 80 per cent of the fatal and severe injury occurred due to driving faults. According to World Bank forecasts India&#8217;s death rate is expected to rise until 2042 if no remedial action being taken. The number of road accidents in China dropped by an annual average 10.8 per cent for four consecutive years from 2003, despite continuous growth in the number of privately owned cars.
> 
> *Doing Business in India*
> 
> It takes 50 days to register a property as compared to less than 30 days in China, and less than 10 days in the United States and Thailand. Average cost of a business start-up is over 60 percent of per capita income, much higher than any of the comparator countries.
> 
> India has the highest cost of electricity among major industrialised and emerging economies ($0.8 per kwh for industry as against $0.1 kwh in China), result of the highest transmission and distribution losses in the world, or in other words a quarter of the gross electricity output. Transport costs are very high in India. It accounts for 25% of total import costs as against only 10% in comparator countries. [World Bank Report on India]
> 
> *Foreign remittance from Non Resident Indians*
> 
> In 2006, India received the highest amount of remittance globally from migrants, 27 $Billion. Around 20$ billion of this came from the Gulf expatriate workforce. Together, GCC countries are the largest trading partner of India and home of 5 million of Indian workforce. Indian government expects overseas Indians to pump in about US$500 billion into the FOREX reserves of the country in the next 10 years, making them the single largest source of foreign receipts.
> 
> Nearly three million people in Africa are of Indian ancestry, and the top three countries having the largest population of Indians are South Africa, Mauritius and the Reunion islands. They also have sizeable presence in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania in the east and Nigeria in the west.
> *
> Foreigners Living in India*
> 
> Historically, about 72 % of the current Indian population is originated from Aryan race. Prominent historians and Dravidians consider Aryans as foreign invaders to India. The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) was postulated by eminent Oxford scholar Max Muller in 1882 and later advanced by several western and Indian historans.
> 
> Under the current scenario, potential migrants or &#8216;invaders&#8217; to India include few &#8216;hired or weird&#8217; Pakistani bombers, villagers around India&#8217;s border with Bangladesh, Tamil refugees from Sri Lanka and Indian import of Nepali prostitutes. 92 year old, Indian Painter Maqbool Fida Hussain lives in Dubai after death threats from Hindu militants. According to Hindu extremists Bangladeshi story teller Taslima Nasrin passed all the tests for an Indian citizenship. Italian born Sonia Gandhi , the Christian widow of Rajiv Gandhi is still considered as a foreigner by Hindu elites while Pakistan born Hindu, Lal Krishna Advani is &#8216;legally and morally fit&#8217; to become India&#8217;s next Prime Minister.
> *
> Quit India!*
> 
> Sixty years ago Indians asked the British to quit India. Now they are doing it themselves. To live with dignity and enjoy relative freedom, one has to quit India! With this massive exodus, what will be left behind will be a violently charged and polarized society.
> *
> Hindutva&#8217;s fake National Pride on India*
> 
> A 2006 opinion poll by Outlook&#8212;AC Nielsen shows that 46 % of India&#8217;s urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.
> 
> Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.
> 
> When Indians are fleeing around the world to find a job, how can this hindutva idiots can claim on &#8220;National Pride of India&#8221;?
> 
> India is the World Bank&#8217;s largest borrower, In June 2007 it provided $3.7bn in new loans to India. Due to the fake &#8216;India Shining&#8217; propaganda launched by Hindutva idiots, foreign donors are reluctant to help the poor people in this country. According to figures provided by Britain&#8217;s aid agency, the total aid to India, from all sources, is only $1.50 a head, compared with an average of $17 per head for low-income countries. [Financial Times]
> 
> Gridlocked in corruption, greed, inhumanity and absolute inequality &#8211; of class, caste, wealth, religion &#8211; this is the Real INDIA. Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis even with all the problems that we have and that are often highlighted to us by Indians on here go now and say thank you to Allah. Say thank you to the Quaid-e-Aazm. Remember the sacrifices of our forefathers and thank your lucky stars we are not part of the mess above.
> 
> To my Indian friends good look in your search to escape from the above.
> 
> *
> Now tell me was Mr Azad correct??*
> 
> 
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

Syama Ayas said:


> provide e-book links to those neutral history books. The above remain an opinion or conjecture to most , without any source
> 
> 
> 
> How can dead people have an opinion?



QUITE INDIA MOVEMENT due to which your beloved Leaders went to Jail.!


----------



## Peshwa

Aryan_B said:


> *Back to topic, come on guys all week you have been talking about how Azad was great and that Pakistan was stuffed My god you even brought up 1971. we kept quite. You then swear at us. And now you cant handle it when we present evidence which if it had been available to Mr Azad he would have bowed to thee great Quaid. Tell me are you questioning any of these statistics or what the Indian dalit is saying that you all want to get out of India?? Or you accept the error of your ways?? *



What is it that we need to handle? 

That India with all the problems is still one of the fastest growing economies? That it is hailed as the largest multi cultural democracy? That India managed to stay a single united entity even with incredible amount of diversity in language culture and religion? 

That even when so much bad blood existed between Hindus and Muslims post partition....India still managed to maintain its secular identity instead of becoming a theocratic state? The most interesting part is that it was this "Hindu majority" that chose to draft a secular constitution providing equal rights both religious and economic to all sections of India....a cracking slap on your face if you havent realized this yet

Compare that to the Pakistanis who said they could not live with Hindus, but proved that they could not live with their fellow Muslims either...LOL!! What a joke!! The question is...how many goal posts will your lot move to justify the existance of your nation? After a while it becomes pathetic...Tsk Tsk

And i credit all that is India today to visionaries and leaders like Azad that ensured that unity in diversity was the way forward...

I dunno what us Indians are supposed to feel bad about after reading your post...all I see is hurdles you are showing us that have not stopped India from still being the vision it was envisioned by our forefathers...

You I cannot say the same for...

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lem34

Syama Ayas said:


> We have our share bad apples,
> 
> 
> 
> g



Bad apples go and check the modi threads all you lot want that murderer as your next leader


----------



## somebozo

mafiya said:


> r
> 
> Quit India Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *
> ALl my posts are back up with facts and figures showing who was popular among INDIAN MUSLIMS. I challenge Imbecilic Indians to refute my facts and figures and show me MULANA AZAD was revered among INIDNA MUSLIMS before 1947 *


Until the first generation the name of mulana was a taboo subject but now the new indian pop culture of "bhai bhai" and "non violence" is bringing molana name back from the recycle bin. If molana was alive today, he would perhaps approve Modi for presidency as well and tell the people of Gujrat to accept their minority status. The god of molana was not Allah but the the physical stature of India on the world map.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

Peshwa said:


> What is it that we need to handle?
> 
> That India with all the problems is still one of the fastest growing economies? That it is hailed as the largest multi cultural democracy? That India managed to stay a single united entity even with incredible amount of diversity in language culture and religion?
> 
> .



*Missed this bit did you:*

Armed Conflicts in India

Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.

63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.

According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.

India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)

In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.

&#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.

Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India

With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.

Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.

By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.

Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.

Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.

The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.

According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.

Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bratva

*INDIANS were chest thumping, Now WE pakistanis have shown them WHO Was the boss and popular figure among indian muslims before 1947. Now Refute us or lick the BS you have written in these 30 PAGES*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tamizhan

Coming to the most important point - what is the use of Jinnah when his utility in Pakistan is limited to getting good grades in history and some chest-thumping on online forums and none of his visions (assuming at all he actually had them) that he is feted for, is a reality in Pakistan ?

I think one statement most people would make to Jinnah if he was to come alive today is - _Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it._

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bratva

Tamizhan said:


> Coming to the most important point - what is the use of Jinnah when his utility in Pakistan is limited to getting good grades in history and some chest-thumping on online forums and none of his visions (assuming at all he actually had them) that he is feted for, is a reality in Pakistan ?
> 
> I think one statement most people would make to Jinnah if he was to come alive today is - _Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it._



*ONLY INDIAN IMBECILE AND IDIOTS WOULD WROTE THIS. NEUTRAL PEOPLE WILL ADMIRE JINNAH WITH THESE WORDS.

Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Muhammad Ali Jinnah did all three.-Stanley Wolpert*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Peshwa

Aryan_B said:


> *Missed this bit did you:*
> 
> Armed Conflicts in India
> 
> Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a paraya for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.
> 
> 63 per cent of India&#8217;s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.
> 
> According to an Indian official report , 165 of India&#8217;s 602 districts &#8212; mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh &#8212; are &#8220;badly affected&#8221; by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as &#8220;Maoist terror&#8221;. India&#8217;s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army&#8217;s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.
> 
> India experienced a rapid increase in demand for security in the period following the Mumbai attacks. Thanks to terrorism imports by world&#8217;s weapon industry! India is now one of the world&#8217;s most terror-prone countries, with a death toll second only to Iraq, says a report from the National Counter terrorism Center in Washington. India&#8217;s crime rates, already some of the highest in the world, are also rising, as is the incidence of corporate espionage. Approximately 5.5 million private security guards employed by about 15,000 security companies in India. As an industry,it is now the country&#8217;s largest corporate taxpayer. (CAPSI report)
> 
> In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel&#8217;s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.
> 
> &#8220;Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,&#8221; says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.
> 
> Booming industry of Terrorism Experts and Security Research Institutes in India
> 
> With the emergence of Hindutva fascist forces and their alliance with Neo cons and Zionists, India witnessed a sharp increase in the number of research institutes, media houses and lobbying groups. According to a study by Think Tanks & Civil Societies Program at the University of Pennsylvania, India has 422 think tanks, second only to the US, which has over 2,000 such institutions.
> 
> Out of 422 recognized Indian think tanks, around 63 are engaged in security research and foreign policy matters, which are heavily funded by global weapon industry. India&#8217;s Retired spies, Police officers, Military personals, Diplomats and Journalists are hired by such national security & foreign policy research institutes which gets enormous fund from global weapon industry. These dreaded institutions are in fact has a hidden agenda. Behind the veil, they work as the public relations arm of weapon industry. They create fake terror stories with the help of media and intelligence wing, manipulate explosions through criminals in areas of tribals, dalits or minorities in order to get public acceptance for weapon contracts.
> 
> By creating conflicts in this poor country, Brahmin spin masters get huge commission from the sale of weapons to government forces. To this corrupt bureaucrats, India&#8217;s &#8216;National Interest&#8216; simply means &#8216;their self Interest&#8217;. Their lobbying power bring more wealth to their families as lucrative jobs, citizenship of rich countries and educational opportunities abroad.
> 
> Mentionable that India is one of the world&#8217;s largest weapons importers. Between 2000 and 2007 India ranked world&#8217;s second largest arms importer accounting for 7.5 % of all major weapons transfers. It stood fourth among the largest military spender in terms of purchasing power in 2007 followed by US, China and Russia.
> 
> Over 1,130 companies in 98 countries manufacture arms, ammunitions and components. 90 % of Conventional arms exports in the world are from the permanent five members of the United Nations Security Council namely USA, UK, Russia, China & France. The countries of Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East hold 51 per cent of the world&#8217;s heavy weapons.
> 
> The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency estimating the expenditure on the sector at USD 100 billion for next five years. At least 38 court cases relating to arms agreements are still pending against bureaucrats and military officers. Hindu fascist forces currently enjoy upper hand in media, civil service, judiciary, defence and educational streams of Indian society. Sooner or later, 25,000 strong democratic institutions in India will be collapsed and the country will be transformed to a limited democracy under the rule of security regime like Turkey or Israel. Hindutva&#8217;s security centric nationalism never was capable of bringing peace and protection to the life of our ordinary citizens.
> 
> According to Global Peace Index, India currently ranked on bottom, (122 with 2.422 score). Interestingly, our favourite arms supplier, Israel is among the worst performer when it comes to peace ranking. (141). It reminds a simple fact that the peace cannot be attained by sophisticated security apparatus.
> 
> Further more, India topped on Asian Risk Prospects -2009, with the highest political and social risk, scoring 6.87, mainly because of internal and external instability (PERC)



Nope didnt miss ****....

India is still in one piece....Kashmir is an integral part of India...so is AP, Punjab, Tamil Nadu...and all other states that became part of my country at its conception....
Oh wait...I think we may have added in Sikkim and Siachen to that as well...LOL!!!

Now lets see....how many new nations formed out of your Muslim brotherhood of Pakistan since its inception....Ill let you research that on your own...
Oh wait...its not on the blog written by the "untouchable" fellow....so you probably wont know...
Lemme know if you need help..LOL!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## lem34

Ok guys lets pack it up. I do not want to remind you guys about India's problems and I do not need it shoving down my throat that Pakistan has got its problems.

Let us try to be civil. Both countries have issues. The past is the past. You have your heroes we have ours lets leave it at that

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Peshwa

mafiya said:


> *INDIANS were chest thumping, Now WE pakistanis have shown them WHO Was the boss and popular figure among indian muslims before 1947. Now Refute us or lick the BS you have written in these 30 PAGES*



All i see is desperation..

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lem34

Peshwa said:


> Nope didnt miss ****....
> 
> India is still in one piece....Kashmir is an integral part of India...so is AP, Punjab, Tamil Nadu...and all other states that became part of my country at its conception....
> Oh wait...I think we may have added in Sikkim and Siachen to that as well...LOL!!!
> 
> Now lets see....how many new nations formed out of your Muslim brotherhood of Pakistan since its inception....Ill let you research that on your own...
> Oh wait...its not on the blog written by the "untouchable" fellow....so you probably wont know...
> Lemme know if you need help..LOL!






So what guarantee do you have that it wont split you have lots of insurgency issues


----------



## fd24

longbrained said:


> 1-As per our Prophet. He never approved of a Muslim community being ruled over by some one who has 5000 idols as god.
> 
> 2-Declared a traitor by all those majority who voted for Jinnah.
> 
> 3-If Muslims have the full right then why they have not been able to put that terrorist Modi behind bars? Why rioters kill them on regular basis? Why they lag behind in education terms? Why they are not represented in top brass of security apparatus? Why they do not have a political party of their own which plays a major role in Indian politics? etc etc. (by the way it is not only muslims that do not have rights eg. Dalits are treated worse than animals in India)
> 
> 4-When riots are instigated by those sitting at power and have a seat in government then they are called artificial.
> 
> 5-Gag in the sense that they can not dissent without being killed and maimed.
> 
> 6-My father still remembers that day and how Indian agents had brought that disaster as today they are now after Jinnah and the foundation of Pakistan. At the time all Pakistan was poor. A poor in NWFP was no different than a poor in Bengal. But alas an Indian agent by the name of Mujeeb had done his training well.
> 
> 7-It is a well known fact that India is made up of non-reconciling nations. Out side or Inside. Lower caste or upper caste.
> 
> 8-Entire India is going towards break up. As people get more aware that is inevitable. They would want their share in political power structure dominated by few high caste Indians. Even the seemingly apparent increased in wealth creation is not going to help since with increased wealth comes the increased desire to have a share in political future of one's kinship. That means Muslims would want their own political parties and Sikhs their own. Congress with a white woman at its head can not represent all.



Nicely put longbrained - that says it all i think....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bratva

Peshwa said:


> All i see is desperation on indian side because they haven't yet proved Moulana Azad was revered among Indian muslims before 1947..



Corrected your sentence. Because you haven't refuted us and still spewing the same crap. First refute us and then spew that crap. Capiche?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> So what guarantee do you have that it wont split you have lots of insurgency issues



you have history to see....


----------



## Peshwa

Aryan_B said:


> Ok guys lets pack it up. I do not want to remind you guys about India's problems and I do not need it shoving down my throat that Pakistan has got its problems.
> 
> Let us try to be civil. Both countries have issues. The past is the past. You have your heroes we have ours lets leave it at that



Oh dont run away just yet....Your doing a poor job at convincing us that India is NOT great...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## somebozo

Nothing could be a bigger commitment of Jinnah services to the People of Pakistan that Jinnah lost his wife, daughter, entire family, wealth and health for the cause of Pakistan. At his death bed, he did not have a single next heir of his own to comfort him or lend a shoulder to his coffin...same applies to his sister Fatima Jinnah...wholly dedicated woman to the cause of Pakistan.

Compare this with molana gulam who openly advocated servitude and second class status and did not lose anything by making his congreesi PR of misleading thousands others.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

mafiya said:


> *ONLY INDIAN IMBECILE AND IDIOTS WOULD WROTE THIS. NEUTRAL PEOPLE WILL ADMIRE JINNAH WITH THESE WORDS.
> 
> Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Muhammad Ali Jinnah did all three.-Stanley Wolpert*



You really want to continue this if you want??


----------



## Peshwa

Aryan_B said:


> So what guarantee do you have that it wont split you have lots of insurgency issues



I thought you were a stats man...meaning you need evidence to back up your BS...

So stats say that India since its conception has remained intact (Hindus and muslims alike)....Pakistanis could not live with their Muslim countrymen...let alone Hindus..
So unless you're reading into a crystal ball...the vision of your forefathers failed terribly...

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## sachin@india

somebozo said:


> Nothing could be a bigger commitment of Jinnah services to the People of Pakistan that Jinnah lost his wife, daughter, entire family, wealth and health for the cause of Pakistan. At his death bed, he did not have a single immediate family member to comfort him or lend a shoulder to his coffin...
> 
> *Compare this with molana gulam who openly advocated servitude and second class status and did not lose anything by making his congreesi PR of misleading thousands others.*



mind your language before opening your mouth against the great leader like maulanaji..he was leader to india not to any hindu muslim


----------



## lem34

Peshwa said:


> I thought you were a stats man...meaning you need evidence to back up your BS...
> 
> So stats say that India since its conception has remained intact (Hindus and muslims alike)....Pakistanis could not live with their Muslim countrymen...let alone Hindus..
> So unless you're reading into a crystal ball...the vision of your forefathers failed terribly...



At what cost?? everyone wants to leave India you think that is something to shout about?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Secur

Peshwa said:


> Oh dont run away just yet....Your doing a poor job at convincing us that India is NOT great...



Still better than some deluded Indians thinking that we are justifying the very existence of our country ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ignited Mind

superkaif said:


> Nicely put longbrained - that says it all i think....



Doesn't Islam prohibit the very concept of nation states?


----------



## Bratva

Aryan_B said:


> You really want to continue this if you want??



Be my guest Sire


----------



## Secur

Ignited Mind said:


> Doesn't Islam prohibit the very concept of nation states?


 Highly Debatable ...


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> At what cost?? everyone wants to leave India you think that is something to shout about?



nobody wants to leave india ..on the contrary many minority family from pakistan migrating india on regular basis.

*Persecuted Hindus migrating in hordes*





A year back, when Himesh Kumar&#8217;s* son was kidnapped from outside his school, he knew he had to do something drastic.

He had been getting phone calls for extortion for quite some time, but he had ignored them &#8212; thinking they were mere threats.

As a contractor working in Malir for the past 12 years, Kumar got the shock of his life when he was informed by his driver one afternoon that his eight-year-old son, Nitin*, had been kidnapped. Fortunately, his elder kid, a 13-year-old girl, was spared.

After a gruelling few months of negotiations with the kidnappers, Nitin was finally released. As soon as he saw his son, Kumar arranged for the family to move to India. Informing a few close friends, they wound up their business and left quietly.

Draupati Mandhan, a mother of two, left her home in Jacobabad in the month of Ramazan to move to Karachi to pursue a career in medicine.

After months of house-hunting in the city, she zeroed in on a small apartment, owned by an old man, in Delhi Colony. The rent was reasonable and the place was comfortable.

&#8220;My husband had to stay back to settle the old debts that we had in Jacobabad. So I came alone with the children.&#8221;

But all her excitement of shifting to a big city vanished when the owner did not let her in the house. Embarrassed but still forcing a smile, she says that at first she did not understand the man. &#8220;But then he started calling me and my children Paleet (impure) and asked me to forget about the deal.&#8221;

Completely at a loss, she frantically phoned her husband. &#8220;Thankfully, I had enough money. But the thought of my staying at a hotel did not go well with my husband.&#8221;

She eventually stayed at a friend&#8217;s house for a few days and went back until another place was arranged. Even today, she is unable to comprehend what had happened to her.

The Cover-up

The patron-in-chief of the Pakistan Hindu Council says over 200 Hindu families from different areas of Karachi have left Pakistan in the last couple of months.

The Pew Research Centre of Religion and Public Life has rated Pakistan the third least tolerant country in terms of religious diversity while the recent killing of three Hindus in Shikarpur has set alarm bells ringing for the minority community living in Sindh for centuries.

Amarnath Motumal, Vice-Chairperson of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Sindh, gave a politically correct statement at first when asked about the fate of minorities. &#8220;Pakistan is secure enough for us than India; the present government is doing a lot for minorities.&#8221;

But when prodded a bit and given examples of the recent cases, he slightly changed his stance. &#8220;There is lawlessness and insecurity. Those who are rich are leaving in hordes but the poor are bound to suffer in silence.&#8221;

Forced Conversion

Ramesh Kumar Wankwani, the patron in-chief of the Pakistan Hindu Council, was way more candid. &#8220;A case of forced conversion takes place in Sindh almost every week.&#8221;

Over 93 percent of all Hindus in Pakistan live in Sindh. The recent abductions of Hindu girls from Khairpur, Dadu and Jacobabad have forced the Hindu families to flee their ancestral villages where they had been living for hundreds of years. In Ghotki alone, the locals say, as many as 800 families have fled.

Wankwani claims that most of such cases go unreported as families cover up victimisation to avoid public humiliation. &#8220;And when they do seek help, the police never co-operate. Most of the families, who have reported incidents of victimisation to the police, come back with complaints that the police have refused to register an FIR. It is only through contacts that you get an FIR registered.&#8221;

No official figures on forced conversions are available but the HRCP believes that the numbers are high.

In most cases, young Hindu girls are abducted, converted, and forced to marry Muslim men. In some cases, they have also been forced into prostitution.

In Lyari, 16 girls have been abducted and forced into prostitution so far, according to Wankwani. In the latest case, Poonam Wasu was drugged and married off to her friend&#8217;s brother. Fortunately, she ran away and was reunited with her family. For Poonam&#8217;s family, migration is not an option as they are willing to fight.

Banu, from a scheduled caste family, was abducted in the beginning of 2010 and is still missing. Her father, Devjee, is looking for a job at the age of 55 to arrange money to fight his daughter&#8217;s case in court.

In 2007, Wankwani filed a petition in the Sindh High Court against forced conversions. Four years have gone by and he is still hopeful that something concrete would come out of it. &#8220;I have a firm belief in the judicial system of Pakistan. Let&#8217;s see.&#8221;

Kidnapping for Ransom

Kidnapping for ransom is another cause of concern for Hindu families. Dr Khushal Das, the founder of the Rajput Veterinary Services, is awaiting he safe recovery of his two nieces for the last two months. The two women were on their way to Dr Das&#8217;s home when they were kidnapped from Bahadurabad. One was a 27-year-old mother of two and other a 21-year-old student.

Dr Das received a call from his frantic sister-in-law that her daughters had not come back home. &#8220;They had left around 2 in the afternoon and my Bhabhi called me around 2 at night,&#8221; he said.

In a hushed tone, he said that what was more shocking to him was the attitude of the authorities. &#8220;I have given 30 years of my life to this city and after this incident people are behaving as if they do not know me at all,&#8221; he said with a rueful smile.

The only time he felt a bit hopeful was when he received a missed call on his mobile phone one night. Cautious, he informed the police who told him that the call was made from Abbottabad which was out of their jurisdiction.

But the apathetic attitude of the police did not disappoint him. He went from person to person of the higher ranks to find some clue to his missing nieces. &#8220;I am financially secure and can pay money to get my nieces back. But tell me honestly would someone want to stay in this country after such an incident?&#8221;

&#8216;Flawed&#8217; Education System

Sitting in his well-decorated office, with Jinnah&#8217;s portrait hanging high on a wall, Misri Ladhani, a government officer, blames the flawed education system for migration of his community members.

This year, Ladhani, a self-confessed patriot, completes 30 years in Pakistan. Brought up in a religiously diverse neighbourhood, Ladhani says it was different in the beginning. &#8220;We would sit and speak for hours with our neighbours. I never remember my mother locking the entrance door of our home. It was open for everyone,&#8221; he gets nostalgic.

With the start of Ziaul Haq&#8217;s era, things started dilapidating. &#8220;Unfortunately no one took notice of the fact that our nation was headed towards a downward spiral&#8221;, he explains.

The radicalisation that followed had long-lasting effects, but Ladhani believes that despite blaming external factors, one should look inward. &#8220;This is where the prejudice comes from.&#8221;

Last month, he moved the Sindh High Court on behalf of his son against the compulsion of studying Islamiat in O levels. In his appeal, he stated that the subjects subscribed to the O level students were Islamic Religious Culture and Islamiat for Muslims. However, there was no apparent choice for the minority students to study anything other than Ethics.

Due to this, he said, his son was unable to get an equivalence certificate to appear in the MBBS entrance exam. The SHC promptly allowed the boy to appear in the entry test.

But Ladhani feels that the problem is much deeper than that. He argues that after studying Islamiat from third standard till intermediate, their children would show as much interest in their own scriptures.

Most of the Hindu children opt for Islamiat because they can easily get distinction in it. &#8220;Whereas you get only passing marks in Ethics,&#8221; he raises his brows. &#8220;The competition should be fair. How about teaching our children Bhagwat Geeta and Ramayana at schools?&#8221;

Taking a pause, he cautiously speaks about his daughter. She has married a Muslim man. That came as a shock to many in their community, but he stood by his daughter&#8217;s decision. &#8220;After all, what can parents do in such a situation?&#8221;

But he feared that the marriage might invite the wrath of the radicals. So the first thing he did after getting them married was to ask them to leave the country.

Himesh Kumar* is happily settled in Bangalore now. He has a good job and he does not have to constantly worry about his family. But he misses home. &#8220;No matter where I live, I&#8217;ll always be a Pakistani,&#8221; he told The News on phone.

Wankwani claims that those who have left are still willing to come back. &#8220;But equal rights, self-respect and equal opportunities are something that every citizen wants, no matter what religion they belong to.&#8221;

Persecuted Hindus migrating in hordes - thenews.com.pk

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

165 of indian districts are dealing with maoists, isn't the entire pakistan then dealing with terrorism??? 

as far as global peace index, Although India ranked 135th and Israel ranked 145th guess where pakistan landed ... 146th... 
Please list internationally recognized Hindu terror organisations 
because I can fill the page with well known ones of the other kind

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## sachin@india

Pakistani Hindus seek safety in India

KARACHI: Preetam Das is a good doctor with a hospital job and a thriving private clinic, yet all he thinks about is leaving Pakistan, terrified about a rise in killings and kidnappings targeting Hindus.

A successful professional, he lives in mega city Karachi with his wife and two children, but comes from Kashmore, a district in the north of Pakistan&#8217;s southern province of Sindh.

His family has lived there for centuries and in 1947 when the sub-continent split between India, a majority Hindu state, and Pakistan, a homeland for Muslims, Das&#8217; grandparents chose to stay with the Muslims.

They fervently believed the promise of Pakistan&#8217;s founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah that religious minorities would be protected. Sixty years later, their grandson says life in Kashmore has become unbearable.

&#8220;The situation is getting worse every day,&#8221; he says.

Two of his uncles have been kidnapped and affluent Hindus are at particular risk from abduction gangs looking for ransom, he says.

Rights activists say the climate is indicative of progressive Islamisation over the last 30 years that has fuelled an increasing lack of tolerance to religious minorities, too often considered second class citizens.

Das says the only thing keeping him in Pakistan is his mother.

&#8220;She has flatly refused to migrate, which hinders my plans. I can&#8217;t go without her,&#8221; he said.

Hindus make up 2.5 per cent of the 174 million people living in the nuclear-armed Muslim nation. Over 90 per cent live in Sindh, where they are generally wealthy and enterprising, making them easy prey for criminal gangs.

An official at the ministry of external affairs in New Delhi who declined to be named said: &#8220;Every month about eight to 10 Hindu families migrate from Pakistan. Most of them are well-off.&#8221;

He had no comment on whether the number was on the rise, but Hindu community groups in Pakistan say more people are leaving because of kidnappings, killings and even forced conversions of girls to Islam.

&#8220;Two of my brothers have migrated to India and an uncle to the UAE,&#8221; said Jay Ram, a farmer in Sindh&#8217;s northern district of Ghotki.

&#8220;It&#8217;s becoming too difficult to live here. Sindhis are the most tolerant community in the country vis-a-vis religious harmony, but deteriorating law and order is forcing them to move unwillingly,&#8221; he added.

Ramesh Kumar Vankwani, chief of the Pakistan Hindu Council and a former lawmaker for Sindh province, said Hindus are picked on by kidnappers and that their daughters are subject to forced conversions to Islam.

&#8220;Every now and then we get reports of families migrating. It&#8217;s getting worse now. People are extremely harassed and are forced to leave their homeland but our rulers are shamelessly idle,&#8221; he told AFP.

Rights activists also say Hindus in Sindh are discriminated against.

&#8220;Recently 37 members of five Hindu families migrated to India from Thul town owing to discrimination while three Hindus, including a doctor, were murdered in Shikarpur district,&#8221; said Rubab Jafri, who heads Sindh&#8217;s Human Rights Forum.

&#8220;Lots of violent incidents are happening daily. Most go unreported, which shows vested interests are trying to force Hindus to leave Pakistan.&#8221;

According to the Pakistan Hindu Seva, a community welfare organisation, at least 10 families have migrated from Sindh every month since 2008, mostly to India, but in the last 10 months, 400 families have left.

Another survey last year by the local Scheduled Caste Rights Movement said more than 80 percent of Hindu families complained that Muslims discriminated against them by using different utensils when serving them at food stalls.

&#8220;Hindu migration is a brain-drain for Pakistan as most of them are doctors, engineers, agriculturists, businessmen and intellectuals,&#8221; Jafri said.

But the provincial authorities are reluctant to recognise a problem.

&#8220;I do admit that law and order in some districts of Sindh is quite bad, but it is bad for everyone and not just my community, the Hindus,&#8221; Mukesh Kumar Chawla, provincial minister for excise and taxation, told AFP.

&#8220;Hindus do not migrate in flocks as has been claimed and those who migrate are going abroad for a better fortune,&#8221; he said.

Pakistani Hindus seek safety in India | DAWN.COM

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## somebozo

mafiya said:


> *ONLY INDIAN IMBECILE AND IDIOTS WOULD WROTE THIS. NEUTRAL PEOPLE WILL ADMIRE JINNAH WITH THESE WORDS.
> 
> Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Muhammad Ali Jinnah did all three.-Stanley Wolpert*









The 1.5-metre-high bronze casting on stone plinth was created by David Mcdougall, a graduate student in York&#8217;s Faculty of Fine Arts, who was selected by the PSA on the recommendation of his supervisor, Brandon Vickerd, professor in York&#8217;s Department of Visual Arts. Mcdougall, who specializes in figurative sculpture, said he enjoyed the unveiling of his first public commission. &#8220;It was a great feeling,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I was very excited to see my work on campus. It was a great day.&#8221;






Nothing could be a bigger slap than this. 

In the government of Vajpayee, Singh was External Affairs Minister. Later he became Minister of Finance with Yashwant Sinha. He was also the *Defence Minister when George Fernandes was forced to resign after the Tehelka exposure.*

Mr Jinnah's marvellous achievements made enemies of Pakistan to praise his efforts as well. Mind you, in this book, he blamed Nehru for partition. I will read it when I'll visit Pakistan. *This book also banned in some states of India. * 

Common sense, why did Jaswant Singh not choose to write a book about molana, the all time champion of united india?


----------



## Secur

sandy_3126 said:


> 165 of indian districts are dealing with maoists, isn't the entire pakistan then dealing with terrorism???
> 
> as far as global peace index, Although India ranked 135th and Israel ranked 145th guess where pakistan landed ... 146th...
> Please list internationally recognized Hindu terror organisations
> because I can fill the page with well known ones of the other kind



How many of Pakistani districts are suffering from terrorism like Maoists ? Dont get me random terrorist attacks ...


----------



## Ignited Mind

Secur said:


> Highly Debatable ...



But debatable, nevertheless, right?


----------



## Peshwa

Aryan_B said:


> At what cost?? everyone wants to leave India you think that is something to shout about?



Well certainly not at the cost of Hundreds and Thousands of Bengali Muslim lives!

But hey...you certainly should have stats and surveys to prove that "majority" of Indian minorities want to leave right?
Or is this the blog title you're still quoting...

The way I see it...*"Zillion reasons to leave India...but not a single reason to want to be born Pakistani"*

When the same "untouchable" man writes a blog stating he wished he was born Pakistani...
MAYBE...us Indians would feel shame...LOL!!!
Until then...enjoy your existance

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Bratva

*As usual Indians are diverting topic since they know they are OWNED by facts and figures and can not defend MOULANA AZAD so they decided to bring TERRORISM, SECTARIANISM and BLAH BLAH*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sachin@india

Desperate and frightened, Hindus migrating from Balochistan


Karachi

The continuing strife in Balochistan is producing its own human tragedies &#8212; and Karachi and its vicinity are not immune from its terrible fallout. Around 35 Hindu families have migrated to Hub from different parts of the province within the last one month, according to local residents in the area. Although the town is part of Balochistan, its proximity to Karachi makes it a safe haven for many desperate people fleeing from the interior of the troubled province.

For the first time in many years, the religious minorities in Balochistan, especially Hindus, are feeling insecure about their future in the province, traditionally tolerant in matters of religion. The exodus, which became evident recently, has been going on for years, say community elders.

Frequent abductions for ransom as well as the crippling law and order situation has forced many people within the minority community and other businessmen and professionals to sell their shops and properties for meager sums of money and hastily shift to either Karachi or Hub.

Amarnath Motumel of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan says that within the past month he has been contacted by 27 Hindu families who have shifted to Karachi from Khuzdar and Kalat. A majority of them are teachers, doctors and businessmen. Calling them a &#8220;soft target,&#8221; Motumel says the families are easily recognisable by their businesses and professions and can be followed to and from work easily.

Though the Balochistan home department accepts that a large number of the 291 people abducted in the province last year were Hindus, the HRCP says that there is no actual figure of the number of Hindus abducted and migrating because of this factor. And the sole reason for this exodus is fear.

Fearing for their lives, those who have recently migrated live in a constant state of anxiety worried about being located and harassed. As a result, most of them do not share there home addresses or contact numbers with anyone, not even relatives living in the same city, HRCP sources say.

While the more influential among them have moved to Karachi, the ones with limited financial means have moved, bag and baggage, to Hub, 25 kilometers from the metropolis.

Squatting in front of a dingy lane at Laasi Road in Hub, Kumar narrates how he, along with many other Hindu families, fled the troubled province for good. From owning a paan shop in Khuzdar and making a decent income out of it, Mukesh Kumar now depends on the wages of his two sons and a daughter, who are now working as labourers.

After living for 30 years in Mastung and another 20 in Khuzdar, the recent cases of abductions and killings have forced Kumar to shift to an unfamiliar place and uncertain future. Kumar admits that their future is bleak in these new surroundings, but it is still better living here than living in constant fear.

Eking out an existence near Laasi Road for the past one year now, Kumar is known to many local people. After much hesitation, he started socialising with some of them at a popular tea stall in Hub. Yet, he admits feeling a bit disoriented after leaving his hometown.

Describing the situation in Khuzdar, Kumar says the constant shutter-down strikes had taken their toll on his business. And then there were the kidnappings. In time, those who could not pay &#8212; or in some cases refused to pay &#8212; the ransom demanded eventually found the bodies of their loved ones dumped near a garbage bin or in a hospital backyard.

&#8220;I made the decision to leave for my sons, as I did not want the same treatment meted out to them. If someone kidnaps them, where will I pay from? What do I have? And more importantly, does anyone care?&#8221; he asks helplessly.

Wheel of misfortune

Within the past 15 days, two more Hindus have been kidnapped from Quetta and Khuzdar respectively. Dr Anand Lal* speaking to The News on the phone from Quetta says that the widespread disturbances in the province, which began in 2005, do not seem like ending in the near future. Dr Lal is still waiting to hear something about his son Ramesh Kumar*, abducted from Zarghoon Road in Quetta earlier in the month. Giving an example, he spoke of a recent case where a tortured body of a man named Ravi Kumar was sent to a hospital in Quetta, after the local tribe asked the family not to pay the ransom money. &#8220;It cannot happen without the involvement of powerful people,&#8221; he says dejectedly. And he is not saying it after running out of people to blame for his misery, he adds.

It is not just Hindus that are currently under threat. Outsiders from the Muslim business communities too face the fear of violence and abductions. Three days ago, in a busy market of Quetta on Mission Road, a Hilux with tinted windows was seen stopping near a shop.

As people saw armed men forcefully pushing a young man named Zohaib Bohra from his shop, the government registration plate on the car was not missed by many either. The man was shot in cold blood as people looked on.

The Quetta chapter of HRCP says that as a result of the increasing violence and threat of kidnapping, around 25 Bohra families have shifted from Quetta recently. Nasrullah Mangozai, a fieldworker with the HRCP in Quetta, confirmed that in most cases of kidnappings many people recorded statements about seeing a pick-up truck thrashing their victim before pushing him in the vehicle and speeding off.

&#8220;In the same area, a few steps further, is a Frontier Corps (FC) checkpost where even a motorcycle is checked thoroughly before being given permission to enter the market. And still these people barge in with their heavy vehicles and pick up whoever they want to,&#8221; adds Mangozai.

Back in Hub, local residents reiterated the same when asked who is behind the kidnappings. Requesting anonymity, one of them said that the minute any Hilux or pick-up trucks enter a street, people immediately scatter away.

Farid Ahmed, a researcher with HRCP Quetta says that it is very easy to get a government number plate in the province. &#8220;You need law and order to stop such things. Law is the last thing people are scared of and as a result you&#8217;ll find many cars with government number plates roaming around freely, without registration papers,&#8221; he adds.

When it comes to facing the issue, Dr Lal says that whether it is a home minister or a minority minister, &#8220;everyone keeps mum, after mumbling something about being sad to hear about the kidnappings. Nothing happens.&#8221;

&#8216;Different voices, same story&#8217;

A few miles away from Laasi Road, in a Naval Colony, resides Salamat Ali, who has lived here for the past four years with his family. He cries copiously as he speaks about his hometown, Khuzdar. &#8220;It is like asking a child how he feels after his mother dies in front of him,&#8221; he says with a quivering voice. Fluent in Balochi and Brahvi, Ali&#8217;s family has been following Balochi customs for a very long time.

Easily identified by their professions, the violence and the subsequent attack on Urdu-speaking people, Punjabis and other outsiders started in 2006. When the situation got worse, Ali was asked by his neighbours and friends to shift to a safer place. Witnessing the deaths of many of his friends around him, he still knows exactly what is happening there, without being to Balochistan for months now.

&#8220;You cannot just blame the Army or the intelligence agencies or the sardars alone for the mayhem and murder that continues in Balochistan. They are all responsible. Those who are being killed don&#8217;t know why they are being killed. Is this sane in any way&#8221; Ali asks in despair.

Professor Nagpal, a well-known educationist, says that everyone in the province has the same story to tell &#8212; whether they are Baloch, Punjabi, Hindu or from the Hazara community. He adds that while violence and cruelty has been there for a long time, &#8220;only the gravity has increased.&#8221;

Getting a bit flustered with the term &#8216;minority,&#8217; Nagpal says that religion has nothing to do with nationality and so Hindus should not be considered separate from the Baloch.

Ahmed says that around 50 families have recently migrated from different districts of Balochistan. And around 100 have filed papers to the Indian High Commission seeking asylum in India.

In the middle of compiling a report on the plight of the minorities in Balochistan, Ahmed says that officials now simply refuse to talk when contacted. And once the report is completed, &#8220;it will be the same people who will term the facts and figures exaggerated, blaming the organisation instead.&#8221;

Holding a press conference a day before, Ahmed requested the government to seriously consider the issues faced by the minorities. &#8220;Otherwise, migrating to India is the only option left,&#8221; he says: &#8220; They will now pursue this option &#8212; if their lives are considered worth nothing.&#8221;

Desperate and frightened, Hindus migrating from Balochistan - thenews.com.pk

source of the blog

A Zillion reasons to escape from India

last line



> Hindutva Idiots, Your false pride and actions make our life miserable.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

@ sachin mate I think this is horrific and Pak govt should do more for minorities, it does upset me to see this 



sachin@india said:


> Desperate and frightened, Hindus migrating from Balochistan
> 
> 
> Karachi
> 
> The continuing strife in Balochistan is producing its own human tragedies &#8212; and Karachi and its vicinity are not immune from its terrible fallout. Around 35 Hindu families have migrated to Hub from different parts of the province within the last one month, according to local residents in the area. Although the town is part of Balochistan, its proximity to Karachi makes it a safe haven for many desperate people fleeing from the interior of the troubled province.
> 
> For the first time in many years, the religious minorities in Balochistan, especially Hindus, are feeling insecure about their future in the province, traditionally tolerant in matters of religion. The exodus, which became evident recently, has been going on for years, say community elders.
> 
> Frequent abductions for ransom as well as the crippling law and order situation has forced many people within the minority community and other businessmen and professionals to sell their shops and properties for meager sums of money and hastily shift to either Karachi or Hub.
> 
> Amarnath Motumel of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan says that within the past month he has been contacted by 27 Hindu families who have shifted to Karachi from Khuzdar and Kalat. A majority of them are teachers, doctors and businessmen. Calling them a &#8220;soft target,&#8221; Motumel says the families are easily recognisable by their businesses and professions and can be followed to and from work easily.
> 
> Though the Balochistan home department accepts that a large number of the 291 people abducted in the province last year were Hindus, the HRCP says that there is no actual figure of the number of Hindus abducted and migrating because of this factor. And the sole reason for this exodus is fear.
> 
> Fearing for their lives, those who have recently migrated live in a constant state of anxiety worried about being located and harassed. As a result, most of them do not share there home addresses or contact numbers with anyone, not even relatives living in the same city, HRCP sources say.
> 
> While the more influential among them have moved to Karachi, the ones with limited financial means have moved, bag and baggage, to Hub, 25 kilometers from the metropolis.
> 
> Squatting in front of a dingy lane at Laasi Road in Hub, Kumar narrates how he, along with many other Hindu families, fled the troubled province for good. From owning a paan shop in Khuzdar and making a decent income out of it, Mukesh Kumar now depends on the wages of his two sons and a daughter, who are now working as labourers.
> 
> After living for 30 years in Mastung and another 20 in Khuzdar, the recent cases of abductions and killings have forced Kumar to shift to an unfamiliar place and uncertain future. Kumar admits that their future is bleak in these new surroundings, but it is still better living here than living in constant fear.
> 
> Eking out an existence near Laasi Road for the past one year now, Kumar is known to many local people. After much hesitation, he started socialising with some of them at a popular tea stall in Hub. Yet, he admits feeling a bit disoriented after leaving his hometown.
> 
> Describing the situation in Khuzdar, Kumar says the constant shutter-down strikes had taken their toll on his business. And then there were the kidnappings. In time, those who could not pay &#8212; or in some cases refused to pay &#8212; the ransom demanded eventually found the bodies of their loved ones dumped near a garbage bin or in a hospital backyard.
> 
> &#8220;I made the decision to leave for my sons, as I did not want the same treatment meted out to them. If someone kidnaps them, where will I pay from? What do I have? And more importantly, does anyone care?&#8221; he asks helplessly.
> 
> Wheel of misfortune
> 
> Within the past 15 days, two more Hindus have been kidnapped from Quetta and Khuzdar respectively. Dr Anand Lal* speaking to The News on the phone from Quetta says that the widespread disturbances in the province, which began in 2005, do not seem like ending in the near future. Dr Lal is still waiting to hear something about his son Ramesh Kumar*, abducted from Zarghoon Road in Quetta earlier in the month. Giving an example, he spoke of a recent case where a tortured body of a man named Ravi Kumar was sent to a hospital in Quetta, after the local tribe asked the family not to pay the ransom money. &#8220;It cannot happen without the involvement of powerful people,&#8221; he says dejectedly. And he is not saying it after running out of people to blame for his misery, he adds.
> 
> It is not just Hindus that are currently under threat. Outsiders from the Muslim business communities too face the fear of violence and abductions. Three days ago, in a busy market of Quetta on Mission Road, a Hilux with tinted windows was seen stopping near a shop.
> 
> As people saw armed men forcefully pushing a young man named Zohaib Bohra from his shop, the government registration plate on the car was not missed by many either. The man was shot in cold blood as people looked on.
> 
> The Quetta chapter of HRCP says that as a result of the increasing violence and threat of kidnapping, around 25 Bohra families have shifted from Quetta recently. Nasrullah Mangozai, a fieldworker with the HRCP in Quetta, confirmed that in most cases of kidnappings many people recorded statements about seeing a pick-up truck thrashing their victim before pushing him in the vehicle and speeding off.
> 
> &#8220;In the same area, a few steps further, is a Frontier Corps (FC) checkpost where even a motorcycle is checked thoroughly before being given permission to enter the market. And still these people barge in with their heavy vehicles and pick up whoever they want to,&#8221; adds Mangozai.
> 
> Back in Hub, local residents reiterated the same when asked who is behind the kidnappings. Requesting anonymity, one of them said that the minute any Hilux or pick-up trucks enter a street, people immediately scatter away.
> 
> Farid Ahmed, a researcher with HRCP Quetta says that it is very easy to get a government number plate in the province. &#8220;You need law and order to stop such things. Law is the last thing people are scared of and as a result you&#8217;ll find many cars with government number plates roaming around freely, without registration papers,&#8221; he adds.
> 
> When it comes to facing the issue, Dr Lal says that whether it is a home minister or a minority minister, &#8220;everyone keeps mum, after mumbling something about being sad to hear about the kidnappings. Nothing happens.&#8221;
> 
> &#8216;Different voices, same story&#8217;
> 
> A few miles away from Laasi Road, in a Naval Colony, resides Salamat Ali, who has lived here for the past four years with his family. He cries copiously as he speaks about his hometown, Khuzdar. &#8220;It is like asking a child how he feels after his mother dies in front of him,&#8221; he says with a quivering voice. Fluent in Balochi and Brahvi, Ali&#8217;s family has been following Balochi customs for a very long time.
> 
> Easily identified by their professions, the violence and the subsequent attack on Urdu-speaking people, Punjabis and other outsiders started in 2006. When the situation got worse, Ali was asked by his neighbours and friends to shift to a safer place. Witnessing the deaths of many of his friends around him, he still knows exactly what is happening there, without being to Balochistan for months now.
> 
> &#8220;You cannot just blame the Army or the intelligence agencies or the sardars alone for the mayhem and murder that continues in Balochistan. They are all responsible. Those who are being killed don&#8217;t know why they are being killed. Is this sane in any way&#8221; Ali asks in despair.
> 
> Professor Nagpal, a well-known educationist, says that everyone in the province has the same story to tell &#8212; whether they are Baloch, Punjabi, Hindu or from the Hazara community. He adds that while violence and cruelty has been there for a long time, &#8220;only the gravity has increased.&#8221;
> 
> Getting a bit flustered with the term &#8216;minority,&#8217; Nagpal says that religion has nothing to do with nationality and so Hindus should not be considered separate from the Baloch.
> 
> Ahmed says that around 50 families have recently migrated from different districts of Balochistan. And around 100 have filed papers to the Indian High Commission seeking asylum in India.
> 
> In the middle of compiling a report on the plight of the minorities in Balochistan, Ahmed says that officials now simply refuse to talk when contacted. And once the report is completed, &#8220;it will be the same people who will term the facts and figures exaggerated, blaming the organisation instead.&#8221;
> 
> Holding a press conference a day before, Ahmed requested the government to seriously consider the issues faced by the minorities. &#8220;Otherwise, migrating to India is the only option left,&#8221; he says: &#8220; They will now pursue this option &#8212; if their lives are considered worth nothing.&#8221;
> 
> Desperate and frightened, Hindus migrating from Balochistan - thenews.com.pk

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sachin@india

More than a 100 Baloch families have applied to the Indian High Commission seeking asylum

Tuesday, March 06, 2012


Traditionally religious minority groups in Balochistan have lived in a tolerant environment, rubbing along with others of differing faith reasonably well &#8211; but that is changing. There are recent reports borne out by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan that Hindus are feeling threatened in many cases and there are reliable reports of many abductions from the Hindu community. In the last month alone about 35 Hindu families have fled to Hub from different parts of the province, seeing it as a &#8216;safe haven&#8217; from the conflicts that abound across Balochistan. Reports say that this is not just a recent phenomenon and has been going on at &#8216;trickle&#8217; level for years, but there has been a recent uptick in the numbers of families feeling so insecure that they decided to relocate.

The reports speak of abduction for ransom, traders and business-people as well as professionals like teachers and doctors, being harassed and in some cases dragged from their homes or places of work and killed in broad daylight. These people are not criminals or anything other than the &#8216;other&#8217; &#8211; but they are now the targets &#8211; but of who? It is not just Hindus who are being targeted, it is Muslim minorities too. In at least one incident a double-top pickup with government plates was seen to be used by armed men who dragged a Bohra named Zohaib from his shop and killed him by the road. The HRCP chapter in Quetta says that at least 25 Bohra families have fled Quetta in recent months. Nobody is ever brought to book for these crimes, there seems to be little inclination on the part of the government, provincial or federal, to follow up on them and pursue those who murder and harass minorities, and it is difficult to deduce other than that a blind eye is being turned, a deaf ear to protestations. Matters have got so bad that around 100 families have applied to the Indian High Commission seeking asylum &#8211; and these are people who were born and bred in Balochistan and whose families have lived there for generations. They have grown up with Baloch customs and consider themselves Baloch &#8211; which does nothing to stop them suffering miserably at the hands of...who? Seemingly the misery of Balochistan never ceases, and almost daily there is evidence that it is ever-deepening with the minorities also being targeted.

Balochistan minorities - thenews.com.pk



Aryan_B said:


> @ sachin mate I think this is horrific and Pak govt should do more for minorities, it does upset me to see this



the worst part is they want to migrate to india and no indian muslim wants to migrate pakistan...what a tragedy !!

Azadji stands corrected once again  great visionary

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Bratva

sachin@india said:


> Desperate and frightened, Hindus migrating from Balochistan
> 
> 
> Karachi
> 
> The continuing strife in Balochistan is producing its own human tragedies &#8212; and Karachi and its vicinity are not immune from its terrible fallout. Around 35 Hindu families have migrated to Hub from different parts of the province within the last one month, according to local residents in the area. Although the town is part of Balochistan, its proximity to Karachi makes it a safe haven for many desperate people fleeing from the interior of the troubled province.
> 
> For the first time in many years, the religious minorities in Balochistan, especially Hindus, are feeling insecure about their future in the province, traditionally tolerant in matters of religion. The exodus, which became evident recently, has been going on for years, say community elders.
> 
> Frequent abductions for ransom as well as the crippling law and order situation has forced many people within the minority community and other businessmen and professionals to sell their shops and properties for meager sums of money and hastily shift to either Karachi or Hub.
> 
> Amarnath Motumel of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan says that within the past month he has been contacted by 27 Hindu families who have shifted to Karachi from Khuzdar and Kalat. A majority of them are teachers, doctors and businessmen. Calling them a &#8220;soft target,&#8221; Motumel says the families are easily recognisable by their businesses and professions and can be followed to and from work easily.
> 
> Though the Balochistan home department accepts that a large number of the 291 people abducted in the province last year were Hindus, the HRCP says that there is no actual figure of the number of Hindus abducted and migrating because of this factor. And the sole reason for this exodus is fear.
> 
> Fearing for their lives, those who have recently migrated live in a constant state of anxiety worried about being located and harassed. As a result, most of them do not share there home addresses or contact numbers with anyone, not even relatives living in the same city, HRCP sources say.
> 
> While the more influential among them have moved to Karachi, the ones with limited financial means have moved, bag and baggage, to Hub, 25 kilometers from the metropolis.
> 
> Squatting in front of a dingy lane at Laasi Road in Hub, Kumar narrates how he, along with many other Hindu families, fled the troubled province for good. From owning a paan shop in Khuzdar and making a decent income out of it, Mukesh Kumar now depends on the wages of his two sons and a daughter, who are now working as labourers.
> 
> After living for 30 years in Mastung and another 20 in Khuzdar, the recent cases of abductions and killings have forced Kumar to shift to an unfamiliar place and uncertain future. Kumar admits that their future is bleak in these new surroundings, but it is still better living here than living in constant fear.
> 
> Eking out an existence near Laasi Road for the past one year now, Kumar is known to many local people. After much hesitation, he started socialising with some of them at a popular tea stall in Hub. Yet, he admits feeling a bit disoriented after leaving his hometown.
> 
> Describing the situation in Khuzdar, Kumar says the constant shutter-down strikes had taken their toll on his business. And then there were the kidnappings. In time, those who could not pay &#8212; or in some cases refused to pay &#8212; the ransom demanded eventually found the bodies of their loved ones dumped near a garbage bin or in a hospital backyard.
> 
> &#8220;I made the decision to leave for my sons, as I did not want the same treatment meted out to them. If someone kidnaps them, where will I pay from? What do I have? And more importantly, does anyone care?&#8221; he asks helplessly.
> 
> Wheel of misfortune
> 
> Within the past 15 days, two more Hindus have been kidnapped from Quetta and Khuzdar respectively. Dr Anand Lal* speaking to The News on the phone from Quetta says that the widespread disturbances in the province, which began in 2005, do not seem like ending in the near future. Dr Lal is still waiting to hear something about his son Ramesh Kumar*, abducted from Zarghoon Road in Quetta earlier in the month. Giving an example, he spoke of a recent case where a tortured body of a man named Ravi Kumar was sent to a hospital in Quetta, after the local tribe asked the family not to pay the ransom money. &#8220;It cannot happen without the involvement of powerful people,&#8221; he says dejectedly. And he is not saying it after running out of people to blame for his misery, he adds.
> 
> It is not just Hindus that are currently under threat. Outsiders from the Muslim business communities too face the fear of violence and abductions. Three days ago, in a busy market of Quetta on Mission Road, a Hilux with tinted windows was seen stopping near a shop.
> 
> As people saw armed men forcefully pushing a young man named Zohaib Bohra from his shop, the government registration plate on the car was not missed by many either. The man was shot in cold blood as people looked on.
> 
> The Quetta chapter of HRCP says that as a result of the increasing violence and threat of kidnapping, around 25 Bohra families have shifted from Quetta recently. Nasrullah Mangozai, a fieldworker with the HRCP in Quetta, confirmed that in most cases of kidnappings many people recorded statements about seeing a pick-up truck thrashing their victim before pushing him in the vehicle and speeding off.
> 
> &#8220;In the same area, a few steps further, is a Frontier Corps (FC) checkpost where even a motorcycle is checked thoroughly before being given permission to enter the market. And still these people barge in with their heavy vehicles and pick up whoever they want to,&#8221; adds Mangozai.
> 
> Back in Hub, local residents reiterated the same when asked who is behind the kidnappings. Requesting anonymity, one of them said that the minute any Hilux or pick-up trucks enter a street, people immediately scatter away.
> 
> Farid Ahmed, a researcher with HRCP Quetta says that it is very easy to get a government number plate in the province. &#8220;You need law and order to stop such things. Law is the last thing people are scared of and as a result you&#8217;ll find many cars with government number plates roaming around freely, without registration papers,&#8221; he adds.
> 
> When it comes to facing the issue, Dr Lal says that whether it is a home minister or a minority minister, &#8220;everyone keeps mum, after mumbling something about being sad to hear about the kidnappings. Nothing happens.&#8221;
> 
> &#8216;Different voices, same story&#8217;
> 
> A few miles away from Laasi Road, in a Naval Colony, resides Salamat Ali, who has lived here for the past four years with his family. He cries copiously as he speaks about his hometown, Khuzdar. &#8220;It is like asking a child how he feels after his mother dies in front of him,&#8221; he says with a quivering voice. Fluent in Balochi and Brahvi, Ali&#8217;s family has been following Balochi customs for a very long time.
> 
> Easily identified by their professions, the violence and the subsequent attack on Urdu-speaking people, Punjabis and other outsiders started in 2006. When the situation got worse, Ali was asked by his neighbours and friends to shift to a safer place. Witnessing the deaths of many of his friends around him, he still knows exactly what is happening there, without being to Balochistan for months now.
> 
> &#8220;You cannot just blame the Army or the intelligence agencies or the sardars alone for the mayhem and murder that continues in Balochistan. They are all responsible. Those who are being killed don&#8217;t know why they are being killed. Is this sane in any way&#8221; Ali asks in despair.
> 
> Professor Nagpal, a well-known educationist, says that everyone in the province has the same story to tell &#8212; whether they are Baloch, Punjabi, Hindu or from the Hazara community. He adds that while violence and cruelty has been there for a long time, &#8220;only the gravity has increased.&#8221;
> 
> Getting a bit flustered with the term &#8216;minority,&#8217; Nagpal says that religion has nothing to do with nationality and so Hindus should not be considered separate from the Baloch.
> 
> Ahmed says that around 50 families have recently migrated from different districts of Balochistan. And around 100 have filed papers to the Indian High Commission seeking asylum in India.
> 
> In the middle of compiling a report on the plight of the minorities in Balochistan, Ahmed says that officials now simply refuse to talk when contacted. And once the report is completed, &#8220;it will be the same people who will term the facts and figures exaggerated, blaming the organisation instead.&#8221;
> 
> Holding a press conference a day before, Ahmed requested the government to seriously consider the issues faced by the minorities. &#8220;Otherwise, migrating to India is the only option left,&#8221; he says: &#8220; They will now pursue this option &#8212; if their lives are considered worth nothing.&#8221;
> 
> Desperate and frightened, Hindus migrating from Balochistan - thenews.com.pk
> 
> source of the blog
> 
> A Zillion reasons to escape from India
> 
> last line




What it has to with moulana AZAD?


----------



## somebozo

Secur said:


> Enlighten me , about the first Governor General of India ?  ... Subservient ?  ... You guys became so much used to Farangi Raj that you asked the last Mountbatten to stay as the top most leader of your country ... Pretty rich coming from you guys freedom struggle and such ! What struggle are you referring to ?




Struggle to turn from British Raj to Italian Woman Raj by fair and free democratic elections! 

Thats what he is referring to.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lem34

We should all condemn wherever minorities be they Muslim or Hindu are being abused this is not acceptable in Pakistan or India



sachin@india said:


> More than a 100 Baloch families have applied to the Indian High Commission seeking asylum
> 
> Tuesday, March 06, 2012
> 
> 
> Traditionally religious minority groups in Balochistan have lived in a tolerant environment, rubbing along with others of differing faith reasonably well &#8211; but that is changing. There are recent reports borne out by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan that Hindus are feeling threatened in many cases and there are reliable reports of many abductions from the Hindu community. In the last month alone about 35 Hindu families have fled to Hub from different parts of the province, seeing it as a &#8216;safe haven&#8217; from the conflicts that abound across Balochistan. Reports say that this is not just a recent phenomenon and has been going on at &#8216;trickle&#8217; level for years, but there has been a recent uptick in the numbers of families feeling so insecure that they decided to relocate.
> 
> The reports speak of abduction for ransom, traders and business-people as well as professionals like teachers and doctors, being harassed and in some cases dragged from their homes or places of work and killed in broad daylight. These people are not criminals or anything other than the &#8216;other&#8217; &#8211; but they are now the targets &#8211; but of who? It is not just Hindus who are being targeted, it is Muslim minorities too. In at least one incident a double-top pickup with government plates was seen to be used by armed men who dragged a Bohra named Zohaib from his shop and killed him by the road. The HRCP chapter in Quetta says that at least 25 Bohra families have fled Quetta in recent months. Nobody is ever brought to book for these crimes, there seems to be little inclination on the part of the government, provincial or federal, to follow up on them and pursue those who murder and harass minorities, and it is difficult to deduce other than that a blind eye is being turned, a deaf ear to protestations. Matters have got so bad that around 100 families have applied to the Indian High Commission seeking asylum &#8211; and these are people who were born and bred in Balochistan and whose families have lived there for generations. They have grown up with Baloch customs and consider themselves Baloch &#8211; which does nothing to stop them suffering miserably at the hands of...who? Seemingly the misery of Balochistan never ceases, and almost daily there is evidence that it is ever-deepening with the minorities also being targeted.
> 
> Balochistan minorities - thenews.com.pk


----------



## Peshwa

Secur said:


> Still better than some deluded Indians thinking that we are *justifying the very existence of our country* ?



If thats not your aim...then why are your countrymen pissing on a great man like Azad and calling him a traitor?

A neutral person would see both sides of the coin....sadly its not true in the case of this thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MilSpec

Secur said:


> How many of Pakistani districts are suffering from terrorism like Maoists ? Dont get me random terrorist attacks ...


And maost attacks are not random?
i dont know how many districts in pakistan are affected, but you are the only country that i know that need f16's to fight terrorists, so i assume the problem must be quite grave , right?

apart from you can google the terror organisations in your country, you might see the plight, if these organisation are pro pakistan organisation and are meant for protection of pakistani interests, then i am not sure about jinnah's vision at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## sachin@india

mafiya said:


> What it has to with moulana AZAD?



minorities are safe in India but sadly not in pakistan. Azadji had great vision.


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

longbrained said:


> 1-As per our Prophet. He never approved of a Muslim community being ruled over by some one who has 5000 idols as god.



Show me the verse form Quran wittern by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)?



> 2-Declared a traitor by all those majority who voted for Jinnah.



Did all those who voted for Jinnah did so from an outright urge to declare Azad a traitor?, did the specific own individuals not contribute to those who voted in favor of Jinnah?



> 3-If Muslims have the full right then why they have not been able to put that terrorist Modi behind bars?



how does citizens having full rights have anything to do putting a man accused of mismanaging or sponosirng a pogrom behind bars? Thats the job of the Law authorities.




> Why rioters kill them on regular basis?



Mob psychology.



> Why they lag behind in education terms?



provision of rights does it necessarily mean every community would excel?, They provide the necessary atmosphere required to do so.




> Why they are not represented in top brass of security apparatus?



Should there be reservations for that? security apparatus will obviously be on meritocratic basis.



> Why they do not have a political party of their own which plays a major role in Indian politics?



Some already do
ELECTION COMMISSION OF INDIA




> etc etc. (by the way it is not only muslims that do not have rights



i have cleared the Muslim rights part above.



> eg. Dalits are treated worse than animals in India



Statements without any study? wikipedia calls them _weasel statements._




> 4-When riots are instigated by those sitting at power and have a seat in government then they are called artificial.



State sponsored you meant



> 5-Gag in the sense that they can not dissent without being killed and maimed.



Strange that those with dissent can be given a voice in the capital of the country not be killed or maimed

Even liberalism has its limits



> 6-My father still remembers that day and how Indian agents had brought that disaster as today they are now after Jinnah and the foundation of Pakistan.



Its unknown at this point, what Indian intelligence seeks, as they come under Indian Govt control, and i don't recall my GOI showing any intent towards destabilizing Pakistan




> At the time all Pakistan was poor. A poor in NWFP was no different than a poor in Bengal.



Was NWFP's resources spent towards another province at the cost of its own?



> But alas an Indian agent by the name of Mujeeb had done his training well.



Mujeeb was RAW? wow!





> 7-It is a well known fact that India is made up of non-reconciling nations. Out side or Inside. Lower caste or upper caste.



Now Lower caste and upper caste people of nations now? and facts according to whom? 



> 8-Entire India is going towards break up.



Break up of nation can be seen based on Govt control over its lands and internal conflicts.

There are 2 indexes for that Failed State Index and Global peace Index, in both India's performance is bad , while in one the ranking has improved, while the other it has deteriorated. So still unpredictable.


> As people get more aware that is inevitable. _They would want their share_ in political power structure dominated by few high caste Indians.



They already can



> Even the seemingly apparent increased in wealth creation is not going to help since with increased wealth comes the increased desire to have a share in political future of one's kinship.



Ok, but desire is useless without capability.




> That means Muslims would want their own political parties and Sikhs their own.



They already do



> Congress with a white woman at its head can not represent all.



It doesn't

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## sachin@india

Hindu families seeking asylum in India

QUETTA: Over two dozen Hindu families have approached the Indian High Commission in Islamabad for visa and political asylum in India after what they called growing cases of kidnapping for ransom and target killing of the members of their community in Balochistan.

This was disclosed by the regional director for the federal Ministry of Human Rights, Saeed Ahmed Khan, at a seminar on &#8220;Provincial Conference on Balochistan Crisis&#8221; here on Sunday.

Leaders and workers of various political parties and representatives of civil society attended the seminar jointly organised by the Actionaid and Association for Integrated Development Balochistan.

Mr Khan said that Hindus had been living in Balochistan for centuries, but in recent weeks several members of the minority community had been kidnapped or murdered, forcing them to seek asylum in India.

&#8220;As many as 27 Hindu families from Balochistan have sent applications to the Indian embassy for asylum in India,&#8221; he said.

Mr Khan said it was a matter of great concern and urged the government to take immediate measures to improve the law and order situation in Balochistan.

According to statistics of the Ministry of Human Rights, violation of human rights has been committed at a large scale in Balochistan and people are being abducted for ransom.

National Party&#8217;s vice president Dr Ishaq Baloch said Baloch youths had become frustrated because they had been denied rights and their national identity had not been recognised.

He said that arrest and disappearance of youths had damaged efforts to secure peace in the province.

Hazara Democratic Party chairman Abdul Khaliq Hazara blamed &#8216;hidden hands&#8217; for the poor law and order situation in the province. He said over 100 groups involved in kidnappings for ransom were operating in Balochistan.

Pakhtunkhwa Milli Awami Party&#8217;s provincial president Usman Khan Kakar said Pakistan would get stability, peace and prosperity if the centre recognised the identity and languages of all nationalities in the country.

Hindu families seeking asylum in India | DAWN.COM

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Aryan_B said:


> We should all condemn wherever minorities be they Muslim or Hindu are being abused this is not acceptable in Pakistan or India



Healthy mentality


----------



## lem34

sachin@india said:


> the worst part is they want to migrate to india and no indian muslim wants to migrate pakistan...what a tragedy !!
> 
> Azadji stands corrected once again  great visionary



you do not speak for all Muslims in India nor I for Hindus in Pakistan. It is sad no one chooses to leave their home in this way. Wrong is wrong whether it happens in India or Pakistan. Both countries need to eliminate these abuses I do not see the point in making a cheap point here that you in India are worse in some aspects and we are the same in Pakistan



Syama Ayas said:


> Healthy mentality



Syama contrary to the persona that you see here that is produced by provocation I feel for all the hungry and downtrodden wherever they may be in the world immaterial of religion

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> you do not speak for all Muslims in India nor I for Hindus in Pakistan. It is sad no one chooses to leave their home in this way. Wrong is wrong whether it happens in India or Pakistan. Both countries need to eliminate these abuses I do not see the point in making a cheap point here that you in India are worse in some aspects and we are the same in Pakistan



sorry dear, from india no one is moving out to pakistan...can't say the same for pakistan.. institutionalized crimes against minorities is the main reason

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

Syama Ayas said:


> Show me &&&&&&&&



great reply


----------



## sachin@india

This is from a highly respectable source...

*The Problem Of Pakistan: Teaching Intolerance And Violence*

The U.S. may have no more difficult relationship than the one it has with Pakistan. This supposed ally plays a double game in Afghanistan, mixes an unstable political system and weak civilian government with nuclear weapons, and acts as an incubator for religious intolerance. Obviously, Islamabad has its own, sometimes well-founded complaints against America. But there may be no more dangerous nation today than Pakistan.

An important cause of conflict in that divided society is the educational system. All too often, both public schools and private madrassas promote intolerance and extremism. These attitudes have encouraged increasing violence which threatens to consume the entire country with deadly effect.

In November the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom published a report written by Ashar Hussain (International Center for Religion and Diplomacy), Ahmad Salim (Sustainable Development Policy Institute), and Arif Naveed (also SDPI).

Pakistan&#8217;s birth was bloody, featuring violent conflict between and mass movement of Hindus and Muslims within the areas which became India and Pakistan. Although Pakistan&#8217;s Islamic character was clear, founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah declared: &#8220;Minorities, to whichever community they may belong, will be safeguarded. Their religion or faith of any kind will be secure. There will be no interference of any kind with their freedom of worship.&#8221;

Pakistan would be a much better place if these sentiments continued to reflect that nation&#8217;s reality. However, much has changed over the last six decades. For instance, General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq promoted Muslim fundamentalism to win public support for his military rule. Rising Islamic currents around the world created greater receptivity to extremism. Most recently, American military operations in both Afghanistan and Pakistan generated widespread antagonism.

These factors alone would have created a tough environment in which to protect the human life and dignity of religious, ethnic, and political minorities. However, the education system for a growing youth population has created an equally serious barrier. As the Commission observed: &#8220;education plays a critical role in the fabric of Pakistani life, with the potential of bringing the society together or tearing it apart.&#8221; Today, unfortunately, education, so-called, is far too often doing the latter.

For years schooling in Pakistan was largely secular, but the public system failed to educate most students. Gen. Zia increased the money going to education, but simultaneously &#8220;infused the education system with rigid Islamic content,&#8221; explained the USCIRF. Before dying in a suspicious plane crash in 1988, the dictatorial Zia changed curriculum and textbooks for the worse.

His government stated that &#8220;The highest priority would be given to the revision of the curricula with a view to reorganizing the entire content around Islamic thought and giving education an ideological orientation so that Islamic ideology permeates the thinking of the young generation.&#8221; The problem was not that the system emphasized Islam, but instead promoted intolerant fundamentalism. Dr. Nasim Ashraf of the Middle East Institute said the Zia years were &#8220;the turning point for Pakistan&#8217;s educational system,&#8221; creating &#8220;the bedrock on which militant extremism was founded.&#8221;

The most obvious impact is that many religious minorities suffer through an education which directly attacks their faith. Noted the Commission, minority students &#8220;are forced to study from textbooks and curricula that are biased against them and routinely face discrimination and intimidation from Muslim students and teachers.&#8221; So much for Article 22 of the 1973 Pakistani constitution, which states that &#8220;No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruction, or take part in any religious ceremony, or attend religious worship, if such instruction, ceremony or worship relates to a religion other than his own.&#8221;

Even worse, though, warned the Commission, the educational system &#8220;presents a challenge to the full implementation of protections for religious minorities, and in some cases has even been linked to physical violence against them.&#8221; And not just against non-Muslims. In effect, the Pakistani government now is training those who are determined to kill even Muslims to get their way. Last year Islamic extremists murdered a liberal Muslim governor as well as a Christian government minister. The killers came from the generation which studied under the Zia educational &#8220;reforms.&#8221;

Inflammatory textbooks are an important problem. Noted the Commission, &#8220;The portrayal of religious minorities in textbooks is generally either derogatory or omitted entirely.&#8221; Indeed, non-Muslims &#8220;are often portrayed as inferior or second-class citizens who have been granted limited rights and privileges by generous Pakistani Muslims, for which they should be grateful.&#8221; The harshest attacks are on Hindus, though Christians, Jews, and Sikhs do not receive a fair description.

In 2006 Islamabad revised its curricula guidelines for the better. However, nearly six years later, reported the USCIRF, &#8220;textbooks incorporating these revisions in line with the 2006 guidelines have not been created.&#8221; Unfortunately, the authorities have backtracked some over that time. Moreover, in the intervening years English language textbooks were changed for the worse, actually eliminating accurate descriptions of religious minorities.

More worrisome is the situation in private madrassas. They operate with minimal government oversight and choose their own educational materials. In general, Pakistani researchers (who conducted the Commission study) found that the most recent books, used for astronomy, grammar, and mathematics, date from the 14th century. Other texts are even older.

It should surprise no one that such materials present non-Muslims in a less than positive light. Noted the USCIRF: &#8220;Non-Muslims are generally portrayed in the madrassa textbooks reviewed in one of three ways: (1) kafirs (infidels) or mushrakeen (pagans), (2) dhimmis (non-Muslims living under Islamic rule), or (3) murtids (apostates, i.e., people who have turned away from Islam). Non-Muslims are never described as citizens with the constitutionally-protected rights which accompany citizenship.&#8221;

Over the last decade Islamabad has initiated some limited madrassa reform efforts, including spending more money, creating an oversight board, and prohibiting extremist indoctrination. However, in practice the government has spent most of its time attempting to convince madrassas to teach more modern and secular subjects and has not enforced its ban on hate-mongering, whether intentional or incidental. In this case Islamabad is allowing others to actively undermine the foundational principles of the nation.

In both public schools and private madrassas the problems caused by dubious curriculums and textbooks are compounded by profoundly disturbing teacher attitudes. In general public school teachers knew little about religious minorities and &#8220;expressed a strong sense of self-righteousness regarding sectarian issues.&#8221;

Large numbers believed that sectarian differences were wide and that religious minorities were not citizens. The vast majority believed that violent jihad was mandatory for Muslims. Many teachers were critical of the behavior of religious minorities and proselytized in class. Overall, reported the Commission, &#8220;As many as 80% of the respondents considered non-Muslims to be enemies of Islam.&#8221;

No surprise, madrassa teachers were even more negative towards religious minorities. After all, observed the religious panel, &#8220;As opposed to public school teachers, madrassa teachers teach (and often live) in an environment without religious diversity.&#8221;

The result? &#8220;Madrassa teachers expressed hostility for the followers of most religions.&#8221; They believed the sectarian divide was large and in jihad which was &#8220;sometimes to be directed violently against religious minorities.&#8221; While accepting religious minorities as citizens, madrassa teachers believed they should not have political power. The instructors were prone to believe in conspiracies.

Overall, the Commission found that many teachers were personally intolerant and publicly insensitive toward students of minority faiths. Teachers often reinforced discriminatory stereotypes while offering little encouragement to non-Muslim children, sending &#8220;covert and overt messages to non-Muslim students to convert to Islam.&#8221;

Thus, the problem of extremism in Pakistan has become self-perpetuating. The educational system teaches intolerance to those who will become instructors, who in turn will shape the next generation, transmitting the same intolerance. Even if the central government changes the curriculum and textbooks, the teachers will perpetuate today&#8217;s abuses.

As one would expect, given both texts and instructors, public school students were unfriendly to religious minorities. The children tended to see Pakistan as Islamic, often by sect. Although nominally respectful of religious minorities, reported the Commission, &#8220;when probed on other issues, the respect in many instances seemed vacant. Students often expressed negative views of followers of other religions.&#8221; Kids generally perceived jihad in narrow, violent terms, and many did not consider religious minorities to be citizens. Perhaps more ominously, &#8220;the majority of students simply identified non-Muslims as the enemies of Islam.&#8221;

Madrassa students had less contact with non-Muslims but, paradoxically, were more likely to view the latter as citizens with basic rights. However, the principal reason these students wanted to promote good relations was to advance proselytism. And at the same time &#8220;a majority of them considered non-Muslims as enemies of Islam, with some considering members of other Muslims sects to be enemies.&#8221;

Hostility toward Jews, Hindus, Ahmadis, and Shias was particularly noteworthy. The USCIRF added: &#8220;madrassa students indicated that Jews and Hindus, and to some extent Christians, were considered as the biggest enemies of Islam.&#8221; America, India, and Israel also were singled out as &#8220;as enemies of Islam.&#8221;

The direct victims of intolerance in the Pakistani educational system are non-Muslim students. The Commission detailed several cases. For instance, a Christian fourth-grader was singled out for the dirtiest janitorial duties and corporal punishment, and his father was threatened with loss of his job for filing a complaint. All the Christian girls at one school were failed; a protest forced the administration to regrade the annual exam. A 13-year-old girl wrote of pressure to convert and social isolation, when &#8220;teachers and my fellow students refused to eat and drink with me.&#8221; Another was insulted and beaten by his teacher and called a &#8220;dirty Christian.&#8221;

Of greater concern to Americans is the collective impact on the Pakistani people. Reported the Commission, a number of educational experts shared &#8220;a sense that discrimination is pervasive throughout Pakistani society, influencing and being influenced by the formal educational system.&#8221; They pointed to misrepresentation of the tenets of other faiths, treatment of non-Muslims as outsiders, view of religious minorities as threats to Islam and Pakistan, and insistence that Islam is the norm for Pakistanis.

Shah Jahan Baloch of Save the Children warned: &#8220;Biases created in schools at the early age have an effect in the long run and we can see them.&#8221; Dr. Khalil Masood, former Chairman of the Council of Islamic Ideology, said religious differences were &#8220;also about culture and caste.&#8221; Although religious minorities helped create Pakistan, &#8220;this political representation of non-Muslims was systematically brought to an end.&#8221; Peter Jacob of the National Commission for Peace and Justice observed: &#8220;These biases create a big chain of discrimination in all walks of life.&#8221;

Although causation is never easy to prove, those who study Pakistan&#8217;s educational system linked &#8220;biases in the education and the incidences of extremism, hatred, and violence in the country.&#8221; For instance, Jahan concluded that &#8220;it has a huge effect on religious harmony because it promotes misperceptions about sectarian diversity.&#8221; Some of the scholars saw educational intolerance encouraging the violence that has become so common against religious minorities. Yet, complained Dr. Tariz Rahman of Qaid-e-Azam University, policymakers &#8220;haven&#8217;t taken initiatives to solve these problems.&#8221;

America&#8217;s educational system obviously is far from perfect, and many problems afflict Pakistani society. However, violence threatens not only religious minorities, who face sometimes deadly persecution, but increasingly any Pakistani who eschews extremism. If those in power do not want to be consumed by the fires of Islamic extremism, they must transform an educational system which is stoking the flames.

There is nothing the U.S. can do directly. And, given the state of bilateral relations, even Washington&#8217;s indirect influence is limited. However, American officials should raise the issue, since what happens in Pakistan matters well beyond its own borders. Should Islamabad&#8217;s fragile political superstructure collapse, the consequences would be enormous, and reverberate outward throughout the region and beyond.

Pakistan began with great promise. But it increasingly looks like a failed state with nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, many of that nation&#8217;s problems are self-inflicted, starting with an educational system that helps normalize intolerance and violence.

The Problem Of Pakistan: Teaching Intolerance And Violence - Forbes

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

sachin@india said:


> sorry dear, from india no one is moving out to pakistan...can't say the same for pakistan.. institutionalized crimes against minorities is the main reason



Ok mate India is great Incredible shiny. Pakistan is the pits. you happy??


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> Ok mate India is great Incredible shiny. Pakistan is the pits. you happy??



no sir, I want you to debate on this heinous crime which are committed inside the jinnah's pakistan...as you live outside of pakistan you should not show apthy to them..y humble request sir..please do debate on this..I will keep you informed.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## somebozo

Gandhi died by the hands of an assassin; Jinnah died by his devotion to Pakistan. (Lord Pethick Lawrence,My Brother(1987),biography by Fatima Jinnah.)

Mr Jinnah, was great as a lawyer, once great as a Congressman, great as a leader of Muslims, great as a world politician and diplomat, and greatest of all as a man of action, By Mr. Jinnah's passing away, the world has lost one of the greatest statesmen and Pakistan its life-giver, philosopher and guide. (*Surat Chandra Bose*,My Brother(1987),biography by Fatima Jinnah.)

Jinnah is one of the most extraordinary men in history. (*Jawaharlal Nehru*, first prime minister of India)


Although without Ghandi, Hindustan would still have gained independence and without Lenin and Mao, Russia and China would still have endured Communist revolution, without Jinnah there would have been no Pakistan in 1947. (John Biggs-Davison)

One of the greatest leaders in the Muslim world. (Abdul Rahman Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League)


[He was] the originator of the dream that became Pakistan, architect of the State and father of the world's largest Muslim nation. Mr. Jinnah was the recipient of a devotion and loyalty seldom accord to any man. (Harry S Truman, US President)


Ali Jinnah is a constant source of inspiration for all those who are fighting against racial or group discrimination.' (Nelson Mandela had come to Islamabad in 1995 and had insisted on including Karachi as a destination to visit Jinnah's Grave and his house in Karachi where upon reaching he drove straight to the Quaid's Mazar) At another occasion while addressing the ANC Mandela mentioned three names Ali Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru as sources of inspiration for the movement against apartheid.' *(Nelson Mandela, Ex-South African President)*


Jinnah is Incorruptible and Brave' (*Gandhi *- Interview with Louis Fischer)

There is no man or woman living who imputes anything against his honour or his honesty. He was the most upright person that I know, but throughout it all, he never, as far as I know, for one moment, attempted to deceive any body, as to what he was aiming at or as to the means he attempted to adopt to get it. (Sir Patrick Spen, the last Chief Justice of undivided India)


*Vis - a - Vis*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## notsuperstitious

So far its obvious that Azad's predictions were correct about pakistan splitting, the secterian strife in pakistan, pakistan becoming a tool in the hands of foreign powers and pakistan being ruled by military junta. While Azad became a legendary leader in independent India, establishing prides of the nation IIT, IISC etc and giving hope to the leaderless millions and millions muslims of India.

Pakistani retort has been predictable - calling Azad perverted, trailtor, slave to hindus, ghulam etc etc - in line with their upbringing and one even took a shot at Gandhi calling him ghandi gee!! LOL, highly intellectual stuff indeed, by their standards. And no retort is incomplete without posting about india's socio-economic problems (as if they don't exist in Pakistan).

After this blinding display of highly intellectual debating by pakistanis, one thing we can all agree on 

WE ALL THANK JINNAH!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## sachin@india

Pakistan authorities must do more to protect religious minorities

The Pakistan Government has failed to protect religious minorities from systematic campaigns of violence and vilification, Amnesty International said today on the first anniversary of the assassination of Minorities Minister Shahbaz Bhatti.

The only Christian member of the federal cabinet and one of a handful of Pakistan&#8217;s leading politicians to call for changes to the country's controversial blasphemy laws, Bhatti died after armed men opened fire on his car as he travelled to work in the capital, Islamabad.

&#8220;Pakistani officials should honour Bhatti&#8217;s legacy by challenging the systematic campaign of vilification and attacks on minorities,&#8221; said Sam Zarifi, Asia-Pacific director at Amnesty International.

Although Shahbaz&#8217;s brother Dr Paul Bhatti was made a special adviser to the President for religious minorities after his death, no one has replaced him as Minister for Minorities.

&#8220;The ministerial post remains vacant at this critical time, a sad reflection of the government&#8217;s inaction in the face of continued violence against minorities.&#8221;

The Pakistani Taleban claimed responsibility for killing Bhatti over his criticism of the country&#8217;s blasphemy laws &#8211; British-era criminal sanctions that were amended in the 1980s under the rule of Gen. Zia ul Haq, making it an offence to defile the Quran or Prophet Muhammad punishable by life imprisonment or death respectively.

Religious minorities have been disproportionately accused of blasphemy, but the largest proportion of victims are mainstream Muslims, reflecting the danger these laws pose to all members of Pakistani society and the rule of law.

&#8220;A year has passed since Bhatti was assassinated yet the perpetrators remain at large with no clear sign that they will be brought to justice any time soon.&#8221;

In 2009, a year after replacing military ruler Gen. Pervez Musharraf, the current government pledged to review &#8220;laws detrimental to religious harmony,&#8221; which includes the blasphemy laws.

But the government fell silent after former Punjab governor Salmaan Taseer was assassinated in January last year by one of his own security guards over his criticism of the blasphemy laws.

&#8220;After Taseer&#8217;s assassination, Minister Bhatti remained resolute in his criticisms,&#8221; Sam Zarifi said.

&#8220;Since Bhatti&#8217;s death, the Pakistan government has allowed itself to be intimidated into silence. Pakistani officials must break that silence and speak out against those who seek to harm others because of their religion.&#8221;

This year a coalition of extremist and militant religious groups has openly called for the murder of Shi&#8217;a and some Sufi Muslims, Ahmadis and Christians, and have held large rallies across Pakistan&#8217;s major cities.

On Tuesday 28 February, eighteen Shi&#8217;a Muslims were brutally shot dead in the Kohistan district of Pakistan&#8217;s north-west, after the perpetrators stopped their bus and singled them out from other passengers because of their religion.

The Pakistani government must do all it can to protect its citizens regardless of their religious background, especially where perpetrators candidly speak of committing violence against them.

&#8220;The failure to bring Bhatti&#8217;s killers to justice or protect the most vulnerable citizens from violence while extremist groups publicly call for them to be killed tells the perpetrators of abuses that they will go unpunished if they disguise their crimes as the protection of religious sentiments, even when the targets are senior government officials,&#8221; Sam Zarifi said.

&#8220;Violence against religious minorities is leading to a break down in the rule of law and increased tension within Pakistan&#8217;s diverse society.&#8221;

&#8220;The Pakistan government must take urgent, concrete measures to improve the quality of police investigations, and reform laws like those on blasphemy that promote abuses against religious minorities.&#8221;

Pakistan authorities must do more to protect religious minorities | Amnesty International

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Oh and sachin thank you for your concern it is nice to see and so healthy you concentrating on Pakistan as we poor Pakistanis have so many problems and Indians like you have the time not only to sort your own but ours. Very healthy I would never have the time to go on idf on a Saturday to advise another Indians. Once again thanks



fateh71 said:


> So far its obvious that Azad's predictions were correct about pakistan splitting, the secterian strife in pakistan, pakistan becoming a tool in the hands of foreign powers and pakistan being ruled by military junta. While Azad became a legendary leader in independent India, establishing prides of the nation IIT, IISC etc and giving hope to the leaderless millions and millions muslims of India.
> 
> Pakistani retort has been predictable - calling Azad perverted, trailtor, slave to hindus, ghulam etc etc - in line with their upbringing and one even took a shot at Gandhi calling him ghandi gee!! LOL, highly intellectual stuff indeed, by their standards. And no retort is incomplete without posting about india's socio-economic problems (as if they don't exist in Pakistan).
> 
> After this blinding display of highly intellectual debating by pakistanis, one thing we can all agree on
> 
> WE ALL THANK JINNAH!!!



I think his statements were self serving. Its a pity so few of his own community listened to him

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

Aryan_B said:


> Syama contrary to the persona that you see here that is produced by provocation I feel for all the hungry and downtrodden wherever they may be in the world immaterial of religion



I have always believed, that self-control is what defines one as an individual.

If you can't control yourself on the internet, how can you be sure, you can control yourself among your loved ones?


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> Oh and sachin thank you for your concern it is nice to see and so healthy you concentrating on Pakistan as we poor Pakistanis have so many problems and Indians like you have the time not only to sort your own but ours. Very healthy I would never have the time to go on idf on a Saturday to advise another Indians. Once again thanks



Thanks for the appreciation...but this is my duty to keep on informing you that inspite of having zillion problem no minorities are seeking asylum in a foreign country but pakistanis minorities are seeking asylum in india because of the atrocities happening to them in pakistan. I believe every right minded pakistani should speak against them and keep the values and principles of great jinnah intact.


----------



## lem34

somebozo said:


> Gandhi died by the hands of an assassin; Jinnah died by his devotion to Pakistan. (Lord Pethick Lawrence,My Brother(1987),biography by Fatima Jinnah.)
> 
> Mr Jinnah, was great as a lawyer, once great as a Congressman, great as a leader of Muslims, great as a world politician and diplomat, and greatest of all as a man of action, By Mr. Jinnah's passing away, the world has lost one of the greatest statesmen and Pakistan its life-giver, philosopher and guide. (*Surat Chandra Bose*,My Brother(1987),biography by Fatima Jinnah.)
> 
> Jinnah is one of the most extraordinary men in history. (*Jawaharlal Nehru*, first prime minister of India)
> 
> 
> Although without Ghandi, Hindustan would still have gained independence and without Lenin and Mao, Russia and China would still have endured Communist revolution, without Jinnah there would have been no Pakistan in 1947. (John Biggs-Davison)
> 
> One of the greatest leaders in the Muslim world. (Abdul Rahman Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League)
> 
> 
> [He was] the originator of the dream that became Pakistan, architect of the State and father of the world's largest Muslim nation. Mr. Jinnah was the recipient of a devotion and loyalty seldom accord to any man. (Harry S Truman, US President)
> 
> 
> Ali Jinnah is a constant source of inspiration for all those who are fighting against racial or group discrimination.' (Nelson Mandela had come to Islamabad in 1995 and had insisted on including Karachi as a destination to visit Jinnah's Grave and his house in Karachi where upon reaching he drove straight to the Quaid's Mazar) At another occasion while addressing the ANC Mandela mentioned three names Ali Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru as sources of inspiration for the movement against apartheid.' *(Nelson Mandela, Ex-South African President)*
> 
> 
> Jinnah is Incorruptible and Brave' (*Gandhi *- Interview with Louis Fischer)
> 
> There is no man or woman living who imputes anything against his honour or his honesty. He was the most upright person that I know, but throughout it all, he never, as far as I know, for one moment, attempted to deceive any body, as to what he was aiming at or as to the means he attempted to adopt to get it. (Sir Patrick Spen, the last Chief Justice of undivided India)
> 
> 
> *Vis - a - Vis*



well what more needs to be said. Here we internet warriors are getting so excited about nothing lol



sachin@india said:


> n. I believe every right minded pakistani should speak against them and keep the values and principles of great jinnah intact.



thank you mate couldn't agree with you more I as a Pakistani was moved to follow the great man to do an LLB in UK

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sachin@india

Now what we can say----

Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship

NEW DELHI: More than 700 Pakistanis have acquired Indian citizenship in the last three years, the Lok Sabha was informed Tuesday.

In a written answer, Minister of State for Home Mullappally Ramachandran said while 321 Pakistanis got the citizenship in 2009, the figure dropped to 150 in 2010 but rose to 300 in 2011.

The government rejected 31 applications in 2009, 54 in 2010 and 14 in 2011.

Among Afghans, 284 became Indian citizens in 2009. The figure dropped to nine in 2010 and rose to 14 in 2011.

Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship - Times Of India

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

Syama Ayas said:


> I have always believed, that self-control is what defines one as an individual.
> 
> If you can't control yourself on the internet, how can you be sure, you can control yourself among your loved ones?



You would be amazed lol



sachin@india said:


> Now what we can say----
> 
> Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship
> 
> NEW DELHI: More than 700 Pakistanis have acquired Indian citizenship in the last three years, the Lok Sabha was informed Tuesday.
> 
> In a written answer, Minister of State for Home Mullappally Ramachandran said while 321 Pakistanis got the citizenship in 2009, the figure dropped to 150 in 2010 but rose to 300 in 2011.
> 
> The government rejected 31 applications in 2009, 54 in 2010 and 14 in 2011.
> 
> Among Afghans, 284 became Indian citizens in 2009. The figure dropped to nine in 2010 and rose to 14 in 2011.
> 
> Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship - Times Of India



Mate the grass is always greener on the other side I wish them well in their future


----------



## sachin@india

sachin@india said:


> Now what we can say----
> 
> Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship
> 
> NEW DELHI: More than 700 Pakistanis have acquired Indian citizenship in the last three years, the Lok Sabha was informed Tuesday.
> 
> In a written answer, Minister of State for Home Mullappally Ramachandran said while 321 Pakistanis got the citizenship in 2009, the figure dropped to 150 in 2010 but rose to 300 in 2011.
> 
> The government rejected 31 applications in 2009, 54 in 2010 and 14 in 2011.
> 
> Among Afghans, 284 became Indian citizens in 2009. The figure dropped to nine in 2010 and rose to 14 in 2011.
> 
> Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship - Times Of India



I was thinking how Jinnahji has thought about it ??


----------



## lem34

sachin@india said:


> I was thinking how Jinnahji has thought about it ??



Prob the same way Azadji would have thought if he had a look at those stats I put up about India.

Our leaders at partition are probably looking at all of us with some degree of disappointment. We should all try to live in a way that would have made them proud of us

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> Prob the same way Azadji would have thought if he had a look at those stats I put up about India.
> 
> Our leaders at partition are probably looking at all of us with some degree of disappointment. We should all try to live in a way that would have made them proud of us



we do not discriminate on people on the basis of Class, creed, religion, sex etc...India is the second fastest economy in the world. The days of disappointment has been over for us.


----------



## lem34

sachin@india said:


> we do not discriminate on people on the basis of Class, creed, religion, sex etc...India is the second fastest economy in the world. The days of disappointment has been over for us.



Congrats....


----------



## somebozo

sachin@india said:


> Now what we can say----
> 
> Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship
> 
> NEW DELHI: More than 700 Pakistanis have acquired Indian citizenship in the last three years, the Lok Sabha was informed Tuesday.
> 
> In a written answer, Minister of State for Home Mullappally Ramachandran said while 321 Pakistanis got the citizenship in 2009, the figure dropped to 150 in 2010 but rose to 300 in 2011.
> 
> The government rejected 31 applications in 2009, 54 in 2010 and 14 in 2011.
> 
> Among Afghans, 284 became Indian citizens in 2009. The figure dropped to nine in 2010 and rose to 14 in 2011.
> 
> Over 700 Pakistanis got Indian citizenship - Times Of India



700 is nothing consider that after Parition until now thousands of Indian citizens have take Pakistani citizenship..Just in my social circle I can count three indians who became Pakistani during the year of 2011 either by marriage or application. One of them being a special case of citizenship being awarded by the decree of president Zardari..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> Congrats....



thanks..well we are enjoying anyways..just had a wonderful IPL match.


----------



## notsuperstitious

> He spent a total of 11 years in jail means almost one six part of his whole life for the cause of India.
> 
> &#8226; Youngest and Longest serving Congress President in 1923 and form 1940-1946, 07 terms.
> 
> &#8226; Independent India&#8217;s First Education Minister and held the post until his death in 1958, for almost 11 years.
> 
> &#8226; From 1952 he also assumed charge of the Ministry of National Resources and Scientific Research.
> 
> &#8226; He appointed and established University Grant Commission (UGC) in 1953, Established Sahitya Academy in 1954, Established* Indian Institute of Technology (IIT)*, Kharagpur in 1951, Established* Indian Institute of Science (IISc)*, Banglore. Established* CSIR *for scientific works, Made Visva Bharati Santiniketan as a Central University in 1952, Established Central Institute of Education in 1947, Established Indian Academy of Dance, Drama and Music in 1953, Established Lalit Kala Academy in 1954, Established National Museum in 1947, Established All India Council for Teaching, Established Sangeet Natak Academy.



Azad's achievements (Thanks Bangalore). A great scholar, a great intellectual, a great administrator, a great visionary, a great human - a true humane muslim even non muslims could look upto at the most challenging times in communally charged environment.

And he's being subjected to abuse only because he refused to pamper your ego? I did not want to enter this thread, I only posted y'day that pls don't abuse Indian leaders, yet all we have here is angry abuses of hurt egos. And to think this thread was started by a pakistani who called Azad perverted slave. Let neutral observers decide who is insecure about their identity.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## sachin@india

somebozo said:


> 700 is nothing consider that after Parition until now thousands of Indian citizens have take Pakistani citizenship..Just in my social circle I can count three indians who became Pakistani during the year of 2011 either by marriage or application. One of them being a special case of citizenship being awarded by the decree of president Zardari..



please show the proof or come out of "I know everything" syndrome. Thanks.


----------



## lem34

fateh71 said:


> Azad's achievements. A great scholar, a great intellectual, a great administrator, a great visionary, a great human - a true muslims even non muslims could look upto at the most challenging times in communally charged environment.
> 
> And he's being subjected to abuse only because he refused to pamper your ego? I did not want to enter this thread, I only posted y'day that pls don't abuse Indian leaders, yet all we have here is angry abuses of hurt egos. And to think this thread was started by a pakistani who called Azad perverted slave. Let neutral observers decide who is insecure about their identity.



no offence mate but if you want to look at provocation I suggest you carefully read all the posts on this thread the first 12 pages on this thread and you will see that I made 3 or 4 posts which cannot possibly be taken as insulting to anyone in fact they were rather meek. Then last night one of your countrymen came and was derogatory about Oscar, Bilal SK who were all matter of fact and nothing heated and actually for no reason swore at me. which I think was deleted by Antibody.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## somebozo

fateh71 said:


> Azad's achievements (Thanks Bangalore). A great scholar, a great intellectual, a great administrator, a great visionary, a great human - a true humane muslim even non muslims could look upto at the most challenging times in communally charged environment.
> 
> And he's being subjected to abuse only because he refused to pamper your ego? I did not want to enter this thread, I only posted y'day that pls don't abuse Indian leaders, yet all we have here is angry abuses of hurt egos. And to think this thread was started by a pakistani who called Azad perverted slave. Let neutral observers decide who is insecure about their identity.











A young man, Azad was also exposed to the modern intellectual life of Kolkata, the then capital of British-ruled India and the centre of cultural and political life. He began to doubt the traditional ways of his father and secretly diversified his studies. Azad learned English through intensive personal study and began learning Western philosophy, history and contemporary politics by reading advanced books and modern periodicals. Azad grew disillusioned with Islamic teachings and was inspired by the modern views of Muslim educationalist Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, who had promoted rationalism. Increasingly doubtful of religious dogma, *Azad entered a period of self-described "atheism" and "sinfulness" that lasted for almost a decade*.[6][11]



> I think the "Azad" in his name demonstrated "extra" liberal without bounds.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## sachin@india

fateh71 said:


> Azad's achievements (Thanks Bangalore). A great scholar, a great intellectual, a great administrator, a great visionary, a great human - a true humane muslim even non muslims could look upto at the most challenging times in communally charged environment.
> 
> And he's being subjected to abuse only because he refused to pamper your ego? I did not want to enter this thread, I only posted y'day that pls don't abuse Indian leaders, yet all we have here is angry abuses of hurt egos. And to think this thread was started by a pakistani who called Azad perverted slave. Let neutral observers decide who is insecure about their identity.



amazing achievement under his belts...he was a mastermind behind india's education system.



somebozo said:


> A young man, Azad was also exposed to the modern intellectual life of Kolkata, the then capital of British-ruled India and the centre of cultural and political life. He began to doubt the traditional ways of his father and secretly diversified his studies. Azad learned English through intensive personal study and began learning Western philosophy, history and contemporary politics by reading advanced books and modern periodicals. Azad grew disillusioned with Islamic teachings and was inspired by the modern views of Muslim educationalist Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, who had promoted rationalism. Increasingly doubtful of religious dogma, *Azad entered a period of self-described "atheism" and "sinfulness" that lasted for almost a decade*.[6][11]




form where did you get this ? please post the source...it would be interesting.


----------



## notsuperstitious

sachin@india said:


> amazing achievement under his belts...he was a mastermind behind india's education system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> form where did you get this ? please post the source...it would be interesting.


 
Even if true shows he became a great Islamic scholar through self discovery. Apparently a path followed by many great men. I highly recomment that to the indoctrinated since age two intellectual zombies here.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Ignited Mind

fateh71 said:


> Even if true shows he became a great Islamic scholar through self discovery. Apparently a path followed by many great men. I highly recomment that to the indoctrinated since age two intellectual zombies here.



Many men, especially in those times under went major transformations in terms of their views. 

Iqbal.

Jinnah.

Maulana Azad. 

Even Gandhi went many transformations in terms of his views. 

In fact, introspection is a hallmark of all men who have achieved something in the world.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## fd24

fateh71 said:


> Azad's achievements (Thanks Bangalore). A great scholar, a great intellectual, a great administrator, a great visionary, a great human - a true humane muslim even non muslims could look upto at the most challenging times in communally charged environment.
> 
> And he's being subjected to abuse only because he refused to pamper your ego? I did not want to enter this thread, I only posted y'day that pls don't abuse Indian leaders, yet all we have here is angry abuses of hurt egos. And to think this thread was started by a pakistani who called Azad perverted slave. Let neutral observers decide who is insecure about their identity.



fateh71 - you are being selective again. I along with Oscar were sworn at yesterday yet either you didnt see it or want to be just pointing faults of the "other side". It started with a moron swearing and became quite abusive - in fact a few pages i even managed to offend Indians by spelling Gandhi Ji wrong. If anyone took the time to go back last week when someone was putting disgusting abuse on here about Gandhi - they would know my feeling about the guy. - Just shows how a simple thread can stir so much emotions.
There are insecurities on both sides - denying this is pathetic. How much insecurity depends on which side you are sitting on! 
Lets agree to differ and the rest of you guys - chill out!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## NALANDA

Bamxa said:


> Som Anand provides some clues in this regard.
> He remarks that the Hindu and Muslim communities, lived like two streams, flowing side by
> side but never meeting at any point.69 He dilates further:
> 
> To keep themselves away from the Muslims polluting touch, the Hindus had set-up
> many barriers in their daily life. My mother, for example, would never allow any Muslim to
> enter her kitchen. No cooked food was accepted from them. I remember how, if any of our
> Muslim neighbours even sent any special dish for my father, it never went beyond the dining
> table, a place where she did not take her own food. While eating she would never allow any of
> her Muslim friends or neighbours to touch her. During my childhood such inhibitions were
> generally not observed by male members of educated Hindu families. (Women have always
> been more conservative in these matters.) Some decades earlier these rules formed a strict
> code of conduct for all, no matter how educated or enlightened a person might be.
> 
> The absurdities of such Hindu restrictions notwithstanding, the Muslims had come to
> accept them as a law of nature. Their older generation knew the limits of a relationship with
> the Hindus and considered it improper even to offer them drinking water from their
> utensils. The Hindus have always complained of Muslim fanaticism but they have never
> understood that the walls they raised around themselves could have not resulted in any other
> attitude.
> It took many centuries for the Hindus of Punjab to realise how absurd and harmful
> their anti-Muslim prejudices were. In this respect the first current of change was felt during
> the Khilafat movement in the early twenties. Though the spirit of Hindu-Muslim amity
> received many reverses in later years, at the social level the urban elite had changed its code
> of conduct for the better. This was due, in part, [to] Western education. What this change
> meant was evident in my fathers attitude. When he was young, my mother used to recall, he
> would come back to change his clothes if a Muslim had touched him while walking in the
> bazaar; but during my childhood in Model Town, father had several Muslim friends and he
> considered my mothers inhibitions a sign of backwardness
> 
> *The economic basis of communal violence*
> 
> The economic structure in Lahore surely compounded the social cleavages. Yunas Adeeb
> writes,  The Hindus dominated money lending, import and export of cloth, the business in
> gold and silver and in food-grain. The Muslims worked outside Lahore city in the fields.
> They cultivated vegetables and wheat, and most were craftsmen and artisans.71
> 
> 
> http://www.sacw.net/partition/june2004IshtiaqAhmed.pdf
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> 
> The socio economic structure of the British India was such that even in majority muslim areas, the Muslims were the labourers, peasents and the Hindus were the well off businessmen. The only rich Muslim community was the landed aristocracy who made just a fraction of the total Muslim populace. This in itself should help Pakistanis realize what freedom they live in now. Yes the country is one unorganized mess but at least we know that we wont be stopped from climbing up the social ladder on the basis of our religion.




We, both Muslims and Hindus were not the perfect people during Independence and before (lack of education / mass media) and while we are not perfect today, we are much better.

Above example is correct but the context is not correctly explained. It is an example of Pure Vegetarion family trying to protect being a vegetarian / puritan self. Its like Muslims not allowing other religion near their Masjid, holy books etc as they fear of them being polluted by Kaafirs.... Period. I witnessed it in the thought process of my mother (pure vegetariona, not well educated and conditioned) when I was very young. But my mother allowed me to mix freely with all. I use to live , eat , sleep , play with all my Muslim friends. I am old now and have 5 year old son. My musilm friends come and live in my house as if it is their own. The wall is already demolished and my son, when he grows, will wonder what all this fuss was all about and will sureky think of leaders and people who brought division as a low life.

I think greatly of Azad as he has come out to be progressive and today's India and Future India will make him so proud. Over time (India with its secular constitition and rule of law) will come out as a nation were all these pride and prejudices disappear.

1) Once in a while riots etc are policing issues. We are still a poor country and do not have the resources like a rich nation. But rule of law should prevail at the end..which is the case in India. 
2) Gujarat - People who mention it, conveniently forget that it all started by Muslims buring ~ 100 Hindus and triggering the protest. I am not defending anybody and feels all culprits ( be in Hindu, Muslims, Politician and Bureacrats etc must be severely punished as it was loss of life of people like u and me who are least intererested in any mad behaviour of criminals).
3) Babri Masjid - While demolition was a stupidity, the issue can be better handled. There is no temple on the place yet and there may not be in future. BJP and people who drived the movement have not tried doing similar things again in the last twenty years as they have realized that they can never come to power bt alienating muslims.

Zinnah stood for division, which has and will lead to division of Pakistan at every 40-50 year interval till there will not be any thing left to divide.

Kalam was the visionary who aspired to build a future where people have all inclusive growth. We libe by his ideals and will always work to integerate all sections of our society till no mental division, be it imaginary will exist.


----------



## anathema

mafiya said:


> First of all. I suggest you go read up some Neutral history books...... Let me give you indians a HISTORY lesson.
> 
> *ALL THE INDIAN LEADERS WHO WENT TO JAILS WERE BECAUSE INIDAN CONGRESS CALLED A MAJOR PROTEST AND STRIKE AGAINST BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND MUSLIM LEAGUE REFUSED TO FOLLOW INDIAN CONGRESS AT THAT TIME BY SAYING THEY WILL REMAIN PEACEFUL AND WILL SOLVE PROBLEMS THORIGH NEGOTIATIONS. SO NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM LEAGUE LEADER WENT TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY REMAIN PEACEFUL *


 
Yeah i have often seen this happen ..almost every day..Where the 'So called' leaders let real life people slog their lives only to take the credit at the end and portray that ' They was all a part of the plan' ...Brilliant...What a sham ! ...Pretty sure everyone knows what i am talking about here.....


----------



## shelly

somebozo said:


> 700 is nothing consider that after Parition until now thousands of Indian citizens have take Pakistani citizenship..Just in my social circle I can count three indians who became Pakistani during the year of 2011 either by marriage or application. *One of them being a special case of citizenship being awarded by the decree of president Zardari..*



Let me guess? thats Dawood Ibrahim.. or is it the khalsa wanted guy?


----------



## anathema

Aryan_B said:


> At what cost?? everyone wants to leave India you think that is something to shout about?


 
Am i seriously seeing this line from a senior member....wait , i just wiped the frost of my glasses..Holy mother .....i am indeed seeing this...

You are my Hero in '24 ways on how to become a senior member in 24 Hours'...seriously mazha aa gaya...

I am not even bothering to refute all that you are posting since my countrymen are doing decent enough job...And i also have the keen sense that Posters of good quality from the other side have kept away from this thread...

This thread was meant to ***** slap on India's face by questioning her Heroes..Instead all i can see a bunch of desparate people trying to make sure that their make believe Identify is intact...you guys have a identity crisis...Hope you guys realize this and take some corrective measures ...

On a second note - Thanks for starting this thread - I am going to dig this book and make sure that i read the book....I heard that there were two other questions that Interviewer asked Maulana which was not covered in the link..I will be very interested to see what that was.


----------



## haviZsultan

Its very true whats written in the book. 

Another book that should be read to know about Azad's interactions with Quaid E Azam is Jaswant Singh's book on partition. It shows how Quaid E Azam was forced into partition when everything failed and Indians refused to give us rights. It was a brilliant book that blames the congress-particularly Nehru for the partition. A line of thinking I completely agree with.


----------



## shelly

haviZsultan said:


> Its very true whats written in the book.
> 
> Another book that should be read to know about Azad's interactions with Quaid E Azam is Jaswant Singh's book on partition. It shows how Quaid E Azam was forced into partition when everything failed and Indians refused to give us rights. It was a brilliant book that blames the congress-particularly Nehru for the partition. A line of thinking I completely agree with.


thats fine.. partition is over. dont even try to say its a mistake, it was the right thing to happen

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Vinod2070

longbrained said:


> 1-As per our Prophet. He never approved of a Muslim community being ruled over by some one who has 5000 idols as god.



80% of the world never believed in your prophet's claims. It is just one man's word as far as we are concerned.

Obviously most people in the world remain unconvinced.



> *Entire India is going towards break up.* As people get more aware that is inevitable. They would want their share in political power structure dominated by few high caste Indians. Even the seemingly apparent increased in wealth creation is not going to help since with increased wealth comes the increased desire to have a share in political future of one's kinship. That means Muslims would want their own political parties and Sikhs their own. Congress with a white woman at its head can not represent all.


 
You are not the only one with this wet dream.

Millions have gone to their graves with this unfulfilled wish and their souls are hanging in purgatory.

Apparently millions more are still going to meet the same fate.

Haters can hate. India is more united than ever, stronger than ever and more integrated than ever.

But I always wonder at the depth of hatred and negativity that "conversion" can induce in people. They just don't have a new faith, they must hate everything they had, all their legacy.

Must be difficult living with so much negativity and denial.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Vinod2070

somebozo said:


> Struggle to turn from British Raj to Italian Woman Raj by fair and free democratic elections!
> 
> Thats what he is referring to.


 
Your Arab masters and "fort of Sunnah" have been slaves for a thousand years and even now are supposedly American slaves. This is true for almost all of Islamic world and all Arab states. 






I guess you are an ethnic Arab, given your views.

I am glad you are back from South Asia. I hope it was permanent.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## desiman

Oscar said:


> far from it..
> While Azad was aware of issues that would plague a separate Muslim nation , he put too much faith in communal harmony and the elixir of being a majority.
> He may have been an Indian Patriot.. but he was far from being a beneficiary to Islam as a whole.



Shows that you have not read history but mearly seen it from someone else's point of view. It was Azad who had predicted that a religion based country would never be able to stand on its own feet and would be dominated by a extremely strong military which would never let the political structure out of its clutches. In a letter to Sardar Patel in the 1940's he had shown how India's military at the that time consisted primarily of muslims soldiers at the jawan level and that these soldiers once grouped together at a national level would be a huge roadblock in the success of the political structure. In this landmark book "India wins Freedom" he clearly predicts the future of Pakistan as well as the major flaws of the two nation theory. He also pointed out to that fact that all major political thinkers of the time would stay back in India leaving Pakistan without any clear successor to Jinnah which is what exactly happened. Kalam was a strategic thinker who saw things as they were, unlike Jinaah who was a popular leader who took advantages of situations and died leaving his new nation in peril forever. In term of benefits to Islam, Kalam far outdid Jinnah, Kalam spoke to a united India which would be unbeatable o n the global stage while Jinnah destroyered the unity in South Asia just for his own personal gains. Ill leave you with a quote from Azad himself in reply baseless comments by Jinnah - 

*"I am proud of being an Indian. I am part of the indivisible unity that is Indian nationality. I am indispensable to this noble edifice and without me this splendid structure is incomplete. I am an essential element, which has gone to build India. I can never surrender this claim."*

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Guest01

Rafi said:


> *We don't have Muhairs in Karachi, we have many Urdu speaking brothers and sisters.*
> 
> No, the fact that you and your countrymen are here, day and night, shows who is insecure



LoL, but your army had no qualms calling them Mohajirs and carrying out the second iteration of Bangladesh during the Jinnahpur conspiracy farce!!

Let us put it this way. Jinnah who parried and implied his homogenous muslim requirement platform so much everywhere including in his telegram had no clue that there is nothing called homogeniety in any religion!! Forget muslims. LoL, Jinnah in his insecurity was even running around Anna and the Dravidians trying to propagate the logic of the impossiblilty of existence with India. Of course as he could not have used the religion, he tried the ethnicity there and he conveniently decided to forget that the Pakistani punjabi ethnicity was totally different than the sindhi or the Pashtun and the baloch ethnicity (as is now evident with the propensity of punjabis towards terrorism in Pakistani).

By the end of it, Maulana who was being a saint trying to put some sense in the pompousness that Jinnah was in those days riding, could not have said it better. But look, Maulana tried. He did his duty. And if Jinnah is being credited with the creation of Pakistan shall we also credit him with the millions of bengali muslims slaughtered in Bangladesh, or the daily average of shias slaughtered by sunnis (now even started in what you call Gilgit Baltistan), or the daily dose of terrorism (yesterday saw 2 explosions in NWFP and 2 childred killed and a school blown up) or the extremism in the pakistani society (they are saying that 400 peace loving people did direct action in Bannu jail and got out of there  ) That is just one day of regular Pakistani life after the partition. And I am not even getting in to the economics of it because how much can Jinnah be responsible for?? LoL

LoL, some over here seems to have made this a Jinnah's Pakistan versus Maulana's India scenario. And that is funny because some Pakistani poster without even uderstanding the impetus of the telegram on Islam thought that he can get this to this forum trying to throw mud on India and justify the creation of Pakistan. Little did he know  that using Islam to compare Maulana with the alcohol drinking, second generation gujrati muslim convert from a Hindu family who had difficulty even talking in Urdu (or Hindi) is a total injustice to Jinnah. 

The eagerness that Jinnah attempts in taking the Muslim leadership initiative shows very well his insecurities of qualifying for a role of a muslim leadership. It could have been his worry around his alcohol loving habit or it could have been anything else but the eagerness to get on to the Muslim platform gives away the insecurity surely.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Guest01

In fact if one was to read Jinnah behaviour and responses to other such suggestions even in unrelated matters as a whole then the common factor of his obstinacy to other's ideas can be seen as a consistent pattern.

For example, when Governer General M A Jinnah (sounds quite fancy and so originally british  ) visited Dhaka on 21st of March 1948 then he declared that "Urdu and only Urdu will remain the state language of Pakistan". In going about his decision on the language in his obstinacy, he put aside the voice of the Bengalis who has been campaigning for making 2 national langauages = Bengali or Urdu. What remains a mystery is whether the fact that after Urdu is made the sole national language, the Bengalis or over 45% of then population would actually be illiterate and decladed incompetent for government jobs was lost on Jinnah or was it primarily a conspiracy to ensure that Bengalis were always subjugated to the West Pakistanis.

This event also draws a hole in Jinnah claim to the representation of Muslims. From his lack of understanding and respect of a language of his fellow 45% of muslims, it seems that for Jinnah, the only muslim population was the Urdu speaking population of what is now west Pakistan. In that scenario is there not a possiblity that Jinnah deliberately lied through his teeth knowing very well that Muslims will not be treated equal in Pakistan of which he was very prompt to become the Governor General. This sees through the claim that Jinnah was ever representing the Muslims of the subcontinent. It was either due to his alchohol drinking and other non-muslim habit that he was not able to see through the factual Muslim entity of India or the fact that he was just a recent convert (2nd generation) from a Gujrati Hindu family, it was too early for him to grasp the entirety of what he had become a part of. It is not unknown that converts to a religion always pick up a partial picture of it, the example of several off shoots of churches in Africa where Christin missionaries converted people only a few hundred years back is an example of this religious misintrepretation or apathy that can arise. This could pretty much have been a case when Jinnah was looking at the whole Muslim entiry with the prism of Urdu which was spoken by only a bunch of people in then East Pakistani.

If not a deciet, it was definitely ignorance and if someone really wants to know how cultures live together, India was very happy to adopt 19 languages as state languages in its consitution including Bengali (which Jinnah did not want) and Urdu (which Jinnah wanted).

So now tell me who had a better foresight, was it our Maulana or wast it The Governor General of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Manas

Its so ironical that some liberal Pakistanis have to try hard to portray Jinnah as a secular figure to utter amusement of the rest of the Pakistanis .

In response they ask one simple question " if Jinhah was secular why he left congess and joined muslim league to demand for a separate muslim state of Pakistan ??" .

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tamizhan

desiman said:


> Shows that you have not read history but mearly seen it from someone else's point of view. It was Azad who had predicted that a religion based country would never be able to stand on its own feet and would be dominated by a extremely strong military which would never let the political structure out of its clutches. In a letter to Sardar Patel in the 1940's he had shown how India's military at the that time consisted primarily of muslims soldiers at the jawan level and that these soldiers once grouped together at a national level would be a huge roadblock in the success of the political structure. In this landmark book "India wins Freedom" he clearly predicts the future of Pakistan as well as the major flaws of the two nation theory. He also pointed out to that fact that all major political thinkers of the time would stay back in India leaving Pakistan without any clear successor to Jinnah which is what exactly happened. Kalam was a strategic thinker who saw things as they were, unlike Jinaah who was a popular leader who took advantages of situations and died leaving his new nation in peril forever. In term of benefits to Islam, Kalam far outdid Jinnah, Kalam spoke to a united India which would be unbeatable o n the global stage while Jinnah destroyered the unity in South Asia just for his own personal gains. Ill leave you with a quote from Azad himself in reply baseless comments by Jinnah -
> 
> *"I am proud of being an Indian. I am part of the indivisible unity that is Indian nationality. I am indispensable to this noble edifice and without me this splendid structure is incomplete. I am an essential element, which has gone to build India. I can never surrender this claim."*


 


Guest01 said:


> LoL, but your army had no qualms calling them Mohajirs and carrying out the second iteration of Bangladesh during the Jinnahpur conspiracy farce!!
> 
> Let us put it this way. Jinnah who parried and implied his homogenous muslim requirement platform so much everywhere including in his telegram had no clue that there is nothing called homogeniety in any religion!! Forget muslims. LoL, Jinnah in his insecurity was even running around Anna and the Dravidians trying to propagate the logic of the impossiblilty of existence with India. Of course as he could not have used the religion, he tried the ethnicity there and he conveniently decided to forget that the Pakistani punjabi ethnicity was totally different than the sindhi or the Pashtun and the baloch ethnicity (as is now evident with the propensity of punjabis towards terrorism in Pakistani).
> 
> By the end of it, Maulana who was being a saint trying to put some sense in the pompousness that Jinnah was in those days riding, could not have said it better. But look, Maulana tried. He did his duty. And if Jinnah is being credited with the creation of Pakistan shall we also credit him with the millions of bengali muslims slaughtered in Bangladesh, or the daily average of shias slaughtered by sunnis (now even started in what you call Gilgit Baltistan), or the daily dose of terrorism (yesterday saw 2 explosions in NWFP and 2 childred killed and a school blown up) or the extremism in the pakistani society (they are saying that 400 peace loving people did direct action in Bannu jail and got out of there ) That is just one day of regular Pakistani life after the partition. And I am not even getting in to the economics of it because how much can Jinnah be responsible for?? LoL
> 
> LoL, some over here seems to have made this a Jinnah's Pakistan versus Maulana's India scenario. And that is funny because some Pakistani poster without even uderstanding the impetus of the telegram on Islam thought that he can get this to this forum trying to throw mud on India and justify the creation of Pakistan. Little did he know that using Islam to compare Maulana with the alcohol drinking, second generation gujrati muslim convert from a Hindu family who had difficulty even talking in Urdu (or Hindi) is a total injustice to Jinnah.
> 
> The eagerness that Jinnah attempts in taking the Muslim leadership initiative shows very well his insecurities of qualifying for a role of a muslim leadership. It could have been his worry around his alcohol loving habit or it could have been anything else but the eagerness to get on to the Muslim platform gives away the insecurity surely.



Thanks for your wonderful posts..


----------



## Kyusuibu Honbu

I still don't get this thread, why does eulogizing Jinnah mean to demonize Azad?

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LaBong

Syama Ayas said:


> I still don't get this thread, why does eulogizing Jinnah mean to demonize Azad?



That too by using a telegram which falls under borderline personal attack and rather rude against a person who was known for never responding to attacks.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Guest01

Syama Ayas said:


> I still don't get this thread, why does eulogizing Jinnah mean to demonize Azad?



LoL, good question. If to assume that it is objective to conclude the impossibility of eulogizing Jinnah in abstract, normal to ask the question as to why would that be the case? Could it be because Jinnah had nothing original to offer and the wares that he peddled were mere opposition to another mainstream line of thought? Could it be that eologizing Jinnah really needs to demonize others to reflect a kind of lesser evil picture!! May be the fact that In any which case when one picks up an event in abstract, Jinnah is lackluster or incompetent as an entiry makes it a compulsion to make a villain out of someone else to paint Jinnah as a hero.. Take for example the Bengali language conflict as a case in point or the ineffectiveness of Jinnah's proponence in any of the factual policy or social events in West Pakistani post 1947 (even when he was The Govneror General of Pakistan). Or maybe the demonizing of others is merely preventive just to ensure that simple facts like Jinnah's not participating or sacrificing in the struggle of Independence of India and trying to associate with it merely to gain a political legitimacy are not disseminated so widespread. Afterall is the genesis of a country on the basis of purported speeches and ideas of one man not dangeously fickle for the present day citizens??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ignited Mind

Syama Ayas said:


> I still don't get this thread, why does eulogizing Jinnah mean to demonize Azad?


 


LaBong said:


> That too by using a telegram which falls under borderline personal attack and rather rude against a person who was known for never responding to attacks.



Well, this is how they define a 'hero'. This is macho.


----------



## notsuperstitious

Syama Ayas said:


> I still don't get this thread, why does eulogizing Jinnah mean to demonize Azad?



Exactly, on the second page Azad was called a pervert by the thread starter because ''he believed in the perverted notion of hindu muslim unity''.
 
Would the kind poster for once be intellectually honest and tell us - *do pakistanis not believe in the unity of muslims - hindus - christians -sikhs - ahmedis in pakistan*?

If not, then we stand vindicated, if yes then are all pakistanis perverted too?

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Vinod2070

fateh71 said:


> Exactly, on the second page Azad was called a pervert by the thread starter because ''he believed in the perverted notion of hindu muslim unity''.
> 
> Would the kind poster tell us - *do pakistanis not believe in the unity of muslims - hindus - christians -sikhs - ahmedis in pakistan*?
> 
> If not, then we stand vindicated, if yes then are all pakistanis perverted too?



This is a contradiction that they can never resolve.

Same as Mr. Jinnah dividing India in the name of religion and opposing that for Punjab, claiming they are Punjabi first. This was noticed then and is noticed now.

A country created in the name of Islam could never have been secular.

Either he didn't know what he was creating or he knew it and did it on purpose.

Both options don't give a pretty picture.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Tamizhan

A funny anecdote about Jinnah an AKA,

Jinnah used to say "after we have divided, we (India and Pakistan) can come together, we can co-operate"..to which Maulana replied "this is divorce before marriage".

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## somebozo

Tamizhan said:


> A funny anecdote about Jinnah an AKA,
> 
> Jinnah used to say "after we have divided, we (India and Pakistan) can come together, we can co-operate"..to which Maulana replied "this is divorce before marriage".



Well the credit of uniting India was in the hands of British, so what does Mullah have to say about it.. Having kids before the mother?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Porus

somebozo said:


> Well the credit of uniting India was in the hands of British, so what does Mullah have to say about it.. Having kids before the mother?



Did that great Maulana predicted the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat, the demolition of the Babri mosque by the Hindu fanatics and the murder of thousands of Kahmiris by the Indian army in shinning India? He must have knows it as he was not a alcohol consuming lowly second generation Hindu convert, the pure Afghan and Arab blood was running in his golden veins.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notsuperstitious

somebozo said:


> Well the credit of uniting India was in the hands of British, so what does Mullah have to say about it.. Having kids before the mother?


 
Under the british there were 600 princely states. The modern concept of nationalism is a new one - to india, pakistan and to saudi arabia where you live. You can say we all are children of the british 

OTOH Hindus and Muslims lived together for thousand years, thus proving the two nation theory concept is a modern concept too. A concept that is also a british gift.

BTW have you read the declassified secret correspondence between Azad and that staunch imperialist Churchill, secret because it was addressed to Churchill's secretary? That Churchill and Azad talked about not meeting publically ''in order to maintain the facade''? That not surprisingly Azad never spent a day in British jail? Oh wait, that was not Azad!

Truly british children sir, not without a mother, be proud.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## desiman

Syama Ayas said:


> I still don't get this thread, why does eulogizing Jinnah mean to demonize Azad?



Pakistanis love their Macho hero's who accuse others without any proof or logic just to win public support, kinda explains their love for people like Zaid Hamid and group.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## somebozo

Logically speaking Jinnah and Azad were both qualified personas in their own rights and perhaps there is no justice in comparing them against each other. Azad is probably the only Muslim figure which held the brass to the might of Jinnah.

As he made many prediction about Jinnah creation of Pakistan which later turned out to be true..At the school, we studied in detail about Jinnah as well as Moulana Azad with equal respect and that too from Pakistani books. 

I will make the honorable mention of few in a summarized fashion. 

The bitter memory of partition will always be a hindrance in good relations between Pakistan and India unless a major castrotophic incident takes place which significantly alters the course of opinion in both countries about each other. As we have we have seen the Mumbai terrorist attack and NATO attack provided this opportunity.


The other important point that has escaped Mr Jinnah&#8217;s attention is Bengal. He does not know that Bengal disdains outside leadership and rejects it sooner or later.The confidence of East Pakistan will not erode as long as Jinnah and Liaquat Ali are alive. But after them any small incident will create resentment and disaffection. I feel that it will not be possible for East Pakistan to stay with West Pakistan for any considerable period of time. There is nothing common between the two regions except that they call themselves Muslims.

1. The incompetent political leadership will pave the way for military dictatorship as it has happened in many Muslim countries.

2. The heavy burden of foreign debt.

3. Absence of friendly relationship with neighbours and the possibility of armed conflict.

4. Internal unrest and regional conflicts.

5. The loot of national wealth by the neo-rich and industrialists of Pakistan.

6. The apprehension of class war as a result of exploitation by the neo-rich.

7. The dissatisfaction and alienation of the youth from religion and the collapse of the theory of Pakistan.

8. The conspiracies of the international powers to control Pakistan.

*He also predicted the likes of Gujrat Masscares*

1. They become victims of loot and brutalities and migrate to Pakistan; but how many Muslims can find shelter there?

2. They become subject to murder and other excesses. A substantial number of Muslims will pass through this ordeal until the bitter memories of partition are forgotten and the generation that had lived through it completes its natural term.

3. A good number of Muslims, haunted by poverty, political wilderness and regional depredation decide to renounce Islam.


*And a good light on the role of mullahs playing good cop and bad cop*

A: Many Ulema were with Akbare Azam too; they invented a new religion for him. Do not discuss individuals. Our history is replete with the doings of the Ulema who have brought humiliation and disgrace to Islam in every age and period. The upholders of truth are exceptions. How many of the Ulema find an honourable mention in the Muslim history of the last 1,300 years? There was one Imam Hanbal, one Ibn Taimiyya. In India we remember no Ulema except Shah Waliullah and his family. The courage of Alf Sani is beyond doubt, but those who filled the royal office with complaints against him and got him imprisoned were also Ulema. Where are they now? Does anybody show any respect to them?


*In future India will be faced with class problems, not communal disputes; the conflict will be between capital and labour. *The communist and socialist movements are growing and it is not possible to ignore them. These movements will increasingly fight for the protection of the interest of the underclass. The Muslim capitalists and the feudal classes are apprehensive of this impending threat. Now they have given this whole issue a communal colour and have turned the economic issue into a religious dispute. But Muslims alone are not responsible for it. This strategy was first adopted by the British government and then endorsed by the political minds of Aligarh. Later, Hindu short-sightedness made matters worse and now freedom has become contingent on the partition of India.

*Jinnah himself was an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. In one Congress session Sarojini Naidu had commended him with this title. He was a disciple of Dadabhai Naoroji. He had refused to join the 1906 deputation of Muslims that initiated communal politics in India. In 1919 he stood firmly as a nationalist and opposed Muslim demands before the Joint Select Committee. On 3 October 1925, in a letter to the Times of India he rubbished the suggestion that Congress is a Hindu outfit. In the All Parties Conferences of 1925 and 1928, he strongly favoured a joint electorate. While speaking at the National Assembly in 1925, he said, &#8220;I am a nationalist first and a nationalist last&#8221; and exhorted his colleagues, be they Hindus or Muslims, &#8220;not to raise communal issues in the House and help make the Assembly a national institution in the truest sense of the term&#8221;.

In 1928, Jinnah supported the Congress call to boycott Simon Commission. Till 1937, he did not favour the demand to partition India. In his message to various student bodies he stressed the need to work for Hindu Muslim unity. But he felt aggrieved when the Congress formed governments in seven states and ignored the Muslim League. In 1940 he decided to pursue the partition demand to check Muslim political decline.* In short, the demand for Pakistan is his response to his own political experiences. Mr Jinnah has every right to his opinion about me, but I have no doubts about his intelligence. As a politician he has worked overtime to fortify Muslim communalism and the demand for Pakistan. *Now it has become a matter of prestige for him and he will not give it up at any cost.*

Full article http://k4kashmir.com/?p=2450

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

fateh71 said:


> Under the british there were 600 princely states. *The modern concept of nationalism is a new one - to india, pakistan and to saudi arabia where you live. You can say we all are children of the british *
> 
> OTOH Hindus and Muslims lived together for thousand years, thus proving the two nation theory concept is a modern concept too. A concept that is also a british gift.
> 
> BTW have you read the declassified secret correspondence between Azad and that staunch imperialist Churchill, secret because it was addressed to Churchill's secretary? That Churchill and Azad talked about not meeting publically ''in order to maintain the facade''? That not surprisingly Azad never spent a day in British jail? Oh thats not Azad!
> 
> Truly british children sir, not without a mother, be proud.


 
*These Arabs are still mostly a bunch of disparate and warring tribes.

Nationalism still sits uneasily on them.

But for some reason, those sitting in the "fort of Sunnah" talk about India with so much apparent familiarity.*

Well, we have contempt for that "acting familiar".

The concept of nation state is anyway haram for them. Or not?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## EjazR

Actually the Arabs in general have a deeper sense of identity as compared to some Pakistanis who are still confused. Most states even if their borders were demarcated post WWII had a historical identity, like Syria, Iraq or Egypt. Libya or Pakistan are examples of names which were never heard of before.

Consider that the Baath movement which was basically an Arab socialist movement founded by a Arab Christian, Sunni Muslim and a Shia Alawaite became one of the most powerful forces establishing itself in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Egypt - the largest Arab country. It was a powerful movement until the 70s and 80s until its own turn towards dictators and the backing of political Islamists by GCC states on one hand and the West and the US in particular together worked to discredit or bring down these regimes. And again. the Arab Spring has shown once again the patriotic leanings of the Arabs in Egypt and Tunisia for example. Even the GCC citizens have a strong sense of "Khaleeji" Arab identity now.


Consider this, Maulana Azad who had an Arab mother and a Bengali father and was born in Mecca. Who studies Quranic commentary and Islamic knowledge professionally and came from a linage of Islamic scholars. HE concluded that the very idea of Pakistan is UnIslamic because the name implies that the world is divided into pure and impure. A notion that is UnIslamic in itself.

On the other hand, Jinnah had no Islamic training or knowledge. If I want to know about history, I would go to a historian. If I want to know about health I would prefer a doctor. Similarly, Maulana Azad is much more credible to give viewpoint according to Islamic theology.

However, Jinnah never really claimed to to make his basis of Pakistan on Islamic theology to be fair. It was about politics. His vision did not see how the partition of Punjab would lead to millions of Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs dying. Neither did the British or Congress leaders.

Someone mentioned the Gujarat riots as a reason to disparage Maulana Azad. Then the fact that millions died in the partition is enough to show that "partition would result in a peaceful settlement" according to Jinnah was proved a failure right then. He had possibly realized before his death that he was used as a pawn unwittingly perhaps to create a subservient state for its own interests. Not to mention the added five Balochistan insurgences and the 300,000 killed in East Pakistan. Gujarat riots and all riots in independent India would pale in comparison in these numbers.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Guest01

Porus said:


> Did that great Maulana predicted the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat, the demolition of the Babri mosque by the Hindu fanatics and the murder of thousands of Kahmiris by the Indian army in shinning India? He must have knows it as he was not a alcohol consuming lowly second generation Hindu convert, the pure Afghan and Arab blood was running in his golden veins.



If the number of slain muslims is in fact being sought to present a barometer to the futility or wiseness of what Maulana was proposing then the partition effected (and so eloquently trumpeted by Jinnah in the telegram) alone killed more number of Muslims then any communal event in post 1947 India ever did. In fact if you tally up the number of Bengali Muslims slaughtered by the Muslim Pakistani army then even that number tallies up to be manifold than the number of slain Muslims in India (and I am not even bringing in the communal offset of Hindu deaths in these violences).

Communal violence existed in India even in days before partition. So there is no question of Maulana and all other leaders of India to not have suffered from these.

The actual question that you must be asking is whether Jinnah who in his pompousness claimed to bring an elixir to the table with his trumpeted solution was able to achieve what he claimed or not. Revisit my first part of this post and the answer is a clear NO.


----------



## somebozo

> Libya or Pakistan are examples of names which were never heard of before.


Trolling alerts..Libya was part of the Berber Lands conquered by Romans. Libyan arabs fought the colonial Italians. 




> Consider that the Baath movement which was basically an Arab socialist movement founded by a Arab Christian, Sunni Muslim and a Shia Alawaite became one of the most powerful forces establishing itself in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Egypt - the largest Arab country.


This Baath party is the precise reason why Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Libya are all failed states while Egypt was put back in control by Hosni Mubarak.


----------



## Rafi

The Quaid is a great leader, responsible for changing the world, Azad is an "indian" and lets leave it at that.

The land comprising Pakistan - formed some of the earliest human civilizations - something all Pakistanis can be proud of.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notsuperstitious

EjazR said:


> Consider this, Maulana Azad who had an Arab mother and a Bengali father and was born in Mecca. Who studies Quranic commentary and Islamic knowledge professionally and came from a linage of Islamic scholars. HE concluded that the very idea of Pakistan is UnIslamic because the name implies that the world is divided into pure and impure. A notion that is UnIslamic in itself.
> 
> On the other hand, Jinnah had no Islamic training or knowledge. If I want to know about history, I would go to a historian. If I want to know about health I would prefer a doctor. Similarly, Maulana Azad is much more credible to give viewpoint according to Islamic theology.
> 
> However, Jinnah never really claimed to to make his basis of Pakistan on Islamic theology to be fair. It was about politics. His vision did not see how the partition of Punjab would lead to millions of Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs dying. Neither did the British or Congress leaders.
> 
> Someone mentioned the Gujarat riots as a reason to disparage Maulana Azad. Then the fact that millions died in the partition is enough to show that "partition would result in a peaceful settlement" according to Jinnah was proved a failure right then. He had possibly realized before his death that he was used as a pawn unwittingly perhaps to create a subservient state for its own interests. Not to mention the added five Balochistan insurgences and the 300,000 killed in East Pakistan. Gujarat riots and all riots in independent India would pale in comparison in these numbers.



Well said. I'm frankly not into religion much, and as such can not comment on Maulana Azad's religious credentials, but after reading his shockingly accurate predictions about the future, I have to say the guy was a sheer genius. His politeness, his rejection of hatred, his monumental achievements before and after partition and yet the humility - all point towards a truly great man, a man who did not have to use and sacrifice millions in search of his greatness.

We are fortunate to have such leaders, whose achivements we can recount, and not just have to rely on sloganeering - a tool of mind control.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Rafi

Rafi said:


> The Quaid is a great leader, responsible for changing the world, Azad is an "indian" and lets leave it at that.
> 
> The land comprising Pakistan - formed some of the earliest human civilizations - something all Pakistanis can be proud of.




The Quaid was truly a great man. May he RIP.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

Rafi said:


> The Quaid was truly a great man. May he RIP.



A man who created a nation  from nothing

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> A man who created a nation  from nothing



..... followed by a string of men who created nothing from a nation.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Rafi

VCheng said:


> ..... followed by a string of men who created nothing from a nation.



What does a yank, have to do with our nation. Jack thats what.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fd24

VCheng said:


> ..... followed by a string of men who created nothing from a nation.



Firstly you are off topic Cheng.
Secondly are you holding Jinnah responsible for the misdameanors of some of the morons that followed him? Is he responsible and to blame for the faults of others? Shameful that you insinuate this? If you dont insinuate this then why put this post up?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lem34

VCheng said:


> ..... followed by a string of men who created nothing from a nation.



Traitors who put America first

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

superkaif said:


> Firstly you are off topic Cheng.
> Secondly are you holding Jinnah responsible for the misdameanors of some of the morons that followed him? Is he responsible and to blame for the faults of others? Shameful that you insinuate this? If you dont insinuate this then why put this post up?



Not at all. Jinnah was truly a great man; I merely pointed out the many failures that followed him. That is all.

Please re-read the whole sentence:



> A man who created a nation from nothing
> ..... followed by a string of men who created nothing from a nation.


----------



## Rafi

superkaif said:


> Firstly you are off topic Cheng.
> Secondly are you holding Jinnah responsible for the misdameanors of some of the morons that followed him? Is he responsible and to blame for the faults of others? Shameful that you insinuate this? If you dont insinuate this then why put this post up?



Because he is a Yank, with malafide intent.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

VCheng said:


> Not at all. Jinnah was truly a great man; I merely pointed out the many failures that followed him. That is all.



Yep those traitors who put America before Pakistan


----------



## Ignited Mind

Rafi said:


> What does a yank, have to do with our nation. Jack thats what.



You're spitting at the moon.


----------



## Rafi

Ignited Mind said:


> You're spitting at the moon.



*Bessie Braddock: &#8220;Sir, you are drunk.&#8221; 
Churchill: &#8220;Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.&#8221;*


----------



## fd24

VCheng said:


> Not at all. Jinnah was truly a great man; I merely pointed out the many failures that followed him. That is all.



Thats not what this thread is about. You are at the very least off topic - this thread is not about what followed Jinnah so why bring it up - what is your intention to bring this up?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

superkaif said:


> Thats not what this thread is about. You are at the very least off topic - this thread is not about what followed Jinnah so why bring it up - what is your intention to bring this up?



35 pages of mudslinging on maulana was on topic?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ignited Mind

superkaif said:


> Thats not what this thread is about.



What is this thread about other than trying to teach kids how to make an uncivil and rude reply to a perfectly civil and courteous letter?

or is it about portraying Jinnah's macho heroism by painting him as the fiery Achilles out to destroy Agamemnon?

What exactly is the purpose of this thread, pray tell?

It's open to interpretations.


----------



## Rafi

sandy_3126 said:


> 35 pages of mudslinging on maulana was on topic?



The so-called maulana opposed our independence, why pray? - should Pakistanis have a favorable opinion of him.


----------



## Ignited Mind

Rafi said:


> The so-called maulana opposed our independence, why pray? - should Pakistanis have a favorable opinion of him.



Expressing disagreement and glorifying crass rudeness are poles apart.


----------



## Rafi

Ignited Mind said:


> What is this thread about other than trying to teach kids how to make an uncivil and rude reply to a perfectly civil and courteous letter?
> 
> or is it about portraying Jinnah's macho heroism by painting him as the fiery Achilles out to destroy Agamemnon?
> 
> What exactly is the purpose of this thread, pray tell?
> 
> It's open to interpretations.



Azad asked a stupid question, the response was perfectly reasonable.


----------



## Ignited Mind

Rafi said:


> Azad asked a stupid question, the response was perfectly reasonable.



If I were a teahcer, that is exactly how I would not want my students to reply to a question. Howsoever stupid that question might be. 

...and I suppose Jinnah is more to you than a mere teacher. He is your country's founding father. 

So the standards becomes even higher. 

Such crass rudeness and personal attack is not expected of a man of Jinnah's stature. 

That's all I'm saying. 

Now you might glorify it as the next best thing said to man after the Quran but the truth remains that when you are a man of Jinnah's stature, you are bound to display a behaviour that expresss a certain level of humility and civility. 

We have a saying in Hindi, the more fruits grow on a tree, the more that tree bends. Means, the higher you rise in life, the more humble you must become. 

Read letters by Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, Gandhi, Einstein and you will know what I'm talking about. 

Rudeness and making personal attacks are not the hallmark of a statesman. 

Those basic traits of a statesman are what are missing in this reply by Jinnah.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## fd24

sandy_3126 said:


> 35 pages of mudslinging on maulana was on topic?



You have an opinion and i have an opinion. My opinion will perhaps differ from your opinion - i will respect that. What i wont respect is people diversifying off topic and talking about events AFTER which have no bearing on Jinnah VS Azad. 
What i see on this thread is Pakistan praising Jinnah and Indians praising Azad. What i also see is a lot of trolls and excitable chaps not prepared to accept that BOTH nations have issues. Not 1 Indian has come on here to say they have issues - a sense of "our land is perfect - yours aint." If you guys want to live in a shell thinking that - thats fine but dont expect the rest of the world to believe your dellusional state.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## notsuperstitious

superkaif said:


> You have an opinion and i have an opinion. My opinion will perhaps differ from your opinion - i will respect that. What i wont respect is people diversifying off topic and talking about events AFTER which have no bearing on Jinnah VS Azad.
> What i see on this thread is Pakistan praising Jinnah and Indians praising Azad. What i also see is a lot of trolls and excitable chaps not prepared to accept that BOTH nations have issues. Not 1 Indian has come on here to say they have issues - a sense of "our land is perfect - yours aint." If you guys want to live in a shell thinking that - thats fine but dont expect the rest of the world to believe your dellusional state.


 
The topic is not which country has issues, is it? The topic a started by a pakistani was Jinnah and Azad's views on the matter of partition.

On page 2 the OP and ''researcher'' said Kalam was a perverted man (because he believed in the perverted notion of hindu muslim unity). If that is praising Jinnah then my opinion of Jinnah was correct.

BTW that offensive post was thanked by your bro, but I've stopped holding him responsible for what he does for obvious reasons.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MilSpec

Rafi said:


> The so-called maulana opposed our independence, why pray? - should Pakistanis have a favorable opinion of him.



Well. maulana also opposed division of India into 200 independent states, not jus pakistan, apart from that, every pakistani opposed independence of bangladesh, so should every bengali have an unfavorable view of pakistanis? 

Agreed that Jinnah was a gr88 leader, but maulanas views were very noble and beyond the understanding of people who cannot see the how great the unified nation could have been.



superkaif said:


> You have an opinion and i have an opinion. My opinion will perhaps differ from your opinion - i will respect that. What i wont respect is people diversifying off topic and talking about events AFTER which have no bearing on Jinnah VS Azad.
> What i see on this thread is Pakistan praising Jinnah and Indians praising Azad. What i also see is a lot of trolls and excitable chaps not prepared to accept that BOTH nations have issues. Not 1 Indian has come on here to say they have issues - a sense of "our land is perfect - yours aint." If you guys want to live in a shell thinking that - thats fine but dont expect the rest of the world to believe your dellusional state.



post #332.......


----------



## fd24

fateh71 said:


> The topic is not which country has issues, is it? The topic a started by a pakistani was Jinnah and Azad's views on the matter of partition.
> 
> On page 2 the OP and ''researcher'' said Kalam was a perverted man (because he believed in the perverted notion of hindu muslim unity). If that is praising Jinnah then my opinion of Jinnah was correct.
> 
> BTW that offensive post was thanked by your bro, but I've stopped holding him responsible for what he does for obvious reasons.



Look fateh - Jinnah was a hero to his own people - Azad was a hero to his peoples enemies i.e. hindus and no matter how big a pedastal you put him on and no matter how big a hero he was to you guys - as far as Pakistanis are concerned he was a traiter.
I know its not a Pakistani v India situation but give me a break how do you expect the citizens of both nations to behave and back? 
If you go back through this thread you will note the swearing and abuse was started by Indian members and derailing occurred but doesnt matter what you say - he will NEVER be a hero to his own people - have a think mate.
BTW - You noticed a thank you by someone yet dont see who started the derailing? shame...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## somebozo

sandy_3126 said:


> Well. maulana also opposed division of India into 200 independent states, not jus pakistan, apart from that, every pakistani opposed independence of bangladesh, so should every bengali have an unfavorable view of pakistanis?
> 
> Agreed that Jinnah was a gr88 leader, but maulanas views were very noble and beyond the understanding of people who cannot see the how great the unified nation could have been.
> 
> 
> 
> post #332.......



God forbid even the slightest imagination of united state.
1000 farmers commit sucide each year in India yet there is no record of mass farmer suicide in Pakistan. The Indian socialist experiement by Nehru kept the en-masses backward and starved and in those days we looked to India as an example of how miserable one'f life could get. Much of the accomplishment India has achieved is due to its people effort not the government. By seperating from incompetent nehru socialist government, the people of Pakistan - the North-West part of Indian subcontinent have development a thriving resiliency. The same part of the continent which was one of the poorest in whole and would remain so if India was to remain united.


----------



## MilSpec

somebozo said:


> God forbid even the slightest imagination of united state.
> 1000 farmers commit sucide each year in India yet there is no record of mass farmer suicide in Pakistan. The Indian socialist experiement by Nehru kept the en-masses backward and starved and in those days we looked to India as an example of how miserable one'f life could get. Much of the accomplishment India has achieved is due to its people effort not the government. By seperating from incompetent nehru socialist government, the people of Pakistan - the North-West part of Indian subcontinent have development a thriving resiliency. The same part of the continent which was one of the poorest in whole and would remain so if India was to remain united.



have no words, cant really decide if that was utterly stupid or just####### insane!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Porus

Guest01 said:


> If the number of slain muslims is in fact being sought to present a barometer to the futility or wiseness of what Maulana was proposing then the partition effected (and so eloquently trumpeted by Jinnah in the telegram) alone killed more number of Muslims then any communal event in post 1947 India ever did. In fact if you tally up the number of Bengali Muslims slaughtered by the Muslim Pakistani army then even that number tallies up to be manifold than the number of slain Muslims in India (and I am not even bringing in the communal offset of Hindu deaths in these violences).
> 
> Communal violence existed in India even in days before partition. So there is no question of Maulana and all other leaders of India to not have suffered from these.
> 
> The actual question that you must be asking is whether Jinnah who in his pompousness claimed to bring an elixir to the table with his trumpeted solution was able to achieve what he claimed or not. Revisit my first part of this post and the answer is a clear NO.


 
Now all this has been reduced to the numbers game and statistics. How many times should one twist and turn arguments to justify his bitching and to hide his own ugly face?

The great clairvoyant Maulana, who was thanks to almighty Bhagwan not a lowly converted Hindu, never predicted any kind of violence that would take place in every nook and cranny against the Muslims and other minorities in the shinning secular India, he failed to see the mass graves of Kashmiri Muslims in his oracle of wisdom, the destruction of a famous mosque, the mutilated dead bodies of Sikhs burnt by the Hindu mobs, the genocide of Muslims in Gujarat, or the violence against the Christian community because it had been a norm in that country anyway. 

We never experienced any kind of communal violence on that scale in Pakistan in which two communities butchered each other like pigs as we witnessed it in secular India. Even during the worst period of 1971 in which a part of this country got separated, not a single event of violence against the Bengali community living in the cities of West Pakistan was reported. The army was sent in to eliminate the terrorist who had infiltrated from India and their local supporters and it did its job quite successfully, but the upper echelon of the army Janta blocked every political attempt of reconciliation because the separation of its eastern wing was already decided by the army generals. Even the whole blame of Islamic terrorism which is going on in this country goes to Pakistan army. Muslims of all sects living peacefully together and respect each others beliefs. If only army stops its support to the Islamic terrorists there will be peace in this country form Khyber to Karachi.


----------



## Marwat Khan Lodhi

I did'nt know much about maulana abdul kalam azad, i saw that programe of aaj kamran khan k saath, in which predictions of him about pakistan were shown, which turn out amazingly correct.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lem34

superkaif said:


> Look fateh - Jinnah was a hero to his own people - Azad was a hero to his peoples enemies i.e. hindus and no matter how big a pedastal you put him on and no matter how big a hero he was to you guys - as far as Pakistanis are concerned he was a traiter.



And he had no support amongst his own people. He did not reflect the aspirations of his own people


----------



## MM_Haider

Aeronaut said:


> Epic , just EPIC !


 
Which book it is?


----------



## Vinod2070

somebozo said:


> God forbid even the slightest imagination of united state.
> 1000 farmers commit sucide each year in India yet there is no record of mass farmer suicide in Pakistan. The Indian socialist experiement by Nehru kept the en-masses backward and starved and in those days we looked to India as an example of how miserable one'f life could get. Much of the accomplishment India has achieved is due to its people effort not the government. By seperating from incompetent nehru socialist government, the people of Pakistan - the North-West part of Indian subcontinent have development a thriving resiliency. The same part of the continent which was one of the poorest in whole and would remain so if India was to remain united.


 
We are glad to be rid of you as well.

Good that the partition is working for you as well. We are quite happy with it.

No need to justify it all the time, it is a done deal now. Irreversibly so.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Porus

Vinod2070 said:


> We are glad to be rid of you as well.
> 
> Good that the partition is working for you as well. We are quite happy with it.
> 
> No need to justify it all the time, it is a done deal now. Irreversibly so.



You have said it a thousand times in the last few days, mate. Now take some rest and stop chattering the same lines over and over again like a monkey.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

Porus said:


> You have said it a thousand times in the last few days, mate. Now take some rest and stop chattering the same lines over and over again like a monkey.



Talk to them in a language they understand.


----------



## fd24

Vinod2070 said:


> Talk to them in a language they understand.



or of course the only language you can talk....
I think this thread has past its sell by date dude - bit like your posts.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

superkaif said:


> or of course the only language you can talk....
> I think this thread has past its sell by date dude - bit like your posts.



Well, if I say partition was bad, we are accused of not acknowledging and accepting Pakistan.

Now that we say that we are glad for the partition, we are accused as well.

You guys are a tad difficult to please.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## fd24

Vinod2070 said:


> Well, if I say partition was bad, we are accused of not acknowledging and accepting Pakistan.
> 
> Now that we say that we are glad for the partition, we are accused as well.
> 
> You guys are a tad difficult to please.



Dude Pakistan + India = guaranteed argument. Doesn't matter what the subject is so lets just chill and accept it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Subramanian

Rafi said:


> The Quaid changed the map of the world, azad did what he did, not much people outside india, know he exists.


 
Did he make the tectonic plates bash each other?



Aryan_B said:


> Bottom line an Indian Dalit above has said that India is a toilet which everyone is trying to leave based on govt of inida or UN figures. Had Azad had the benefit of these statistics and figures he would have agreed with the great Quaid. Why do you Indians get off on the fiction that Quaid and we were wrong to go for Pakistan. Go look at the figures above. keep this thread alive so all can see those facts and figures and Pakistanis can appreciate what we have despite our problems


 
You remind me of guys working in Strategy division of most companies,making analysis on paper and selling it to clients for peanuts who throw it into the trash without even opening the envelope.



Oscar said:


> I went a while ago.. so I cannot state the conditions now..
> My ancestral home(whatever is left of it)
> Mostafa Manzil, Katra, Abo Tarab, Lucknow
> 
> My grandmothers father was the editor of an urdu daily from the area(apparently the paper shut down due to mismanagement by his sons) and was a staunch congress supporter.
> He was close friends with Nehru.. and was able to simply walk into the PM's office whenever he wished..
> I must admit I was saddened on a personal level when I visited that area since that very compound was once frequented by the likes of Jawaharlal Nehru and ironically maulana Azad..looked like a rundown area when I visited it.
> None of his sons or even those of his cousins migrated right after 47... but as time passed they realized that India was not offering them all that was promised.. so one by one they moved to Pakistan.. those that did move to Pakistan prospered greatly.
> My grandfather hailed from elsewhere.. had joined the IN in 45.. opted for Pakistan.. and we've done great.
> 
> Do I really want to give a hoot about India's Muslims? No..
> These people are doing fine now.. although not as good as their cousins.. but to each their own.
> Accomplished in their own right..but they do speak of issues in the community which I reflected upon.
> 
> Things have improved since then a LOT..
> my mothers uncle is currently part of the comitte on labour.
> I cant say.. I spoke to relatives out there..and they were very happy on fb.
> The Compound itself looks brand new.. and renovated..
> Perhaps there is hope..
> After all.. what other person on PDF can say that he has members of family sitting in the govts and armed forces of both India and Pakistan


 
There are lot of families from Lucknow and around Delhi,who stayed back and and did very well. The congress preferred to empower them than the Hindus in politics and business.

I have a friend whose grandfather was a big man from western UP and he refused to go Pakistan and take up abig post there,stayed back in India and had a lot of Zameen,if we had followed the example of Pakistan,all their lands wud have been Kabzaaoed.

But i m the guy who says they should have been kabzaaoed,but sadly they did not.



Tamizhan said:


> That is wrong.
> 
> Pakistan (as per Jinnah's vision) was indeed planned to be the home of all subcontinental Muslims from Punjab to UP to Assam to Deccan to Tamil Nadu.
> 
> According to him, a subcontinental Muslim, whoever he is, is different in thought, action, culture from the Hindus and cannot livewith them. No where does he say Pakistan should be created only for Punjabi Muslims or UP Muslims or any specific group.
> 
> Such theories are nothing but revisionist fantasies by those who oppose the likes of Stranded Pakistanis in BD getting Pak citizenship.


 
Jinnah was a regular british agent.

British wanted India not to be partitioned and exist a federal polity.This would have meant like a continuation of the Muslim Rule with strong federal polities and a perfect ground for US/USSR to run the cold war just like so many countries.

Luckily we got partition and got rid of all the toxic elements of the society,not quite but somehow.



Porus said:


> Life will be less painful for you if you learn to accept reality. A part of 'your' nation were the lands of those people who had been living on their lands since hundreds and thousands of years, who labored upon this land to grow food and fought wars and shed their blood to defend it from the aggressors, and if they had not lost wars against the British their land would have never become a part of 'your' nation.
> 
> Pakistanis are those who are now the nationals of Pakistan. Those Muslims who migrated from India to Pak and have acquired its citizenship are equal Pakistanis now.
> 
> It will be even foolish to imagine that a Pashtun or even Punjabi will ever be ready to share his land with millions of immigrants with whom they hardly share anything except religion. Jinnah never said it and he never asked them to leave India and migrate to their new homeland. Before leaving for Pakistan he left a message for the Muslims of India, he said that since Pak and India are now to separate countries the Muslim of India should be loyal to their country.


 

It is all timepass. There were many people who migrated from Indian punjab also,why would Lahore and Lyallpur become their land all of a sudden.

Anyway,all gone man,

whatever history might be let us just hope Pakistan can take more Muslims.They are suffering so much here.



Aryan_B said:


> Come on Indians where are you??? Tell me after reading that Dalit telling us all that over a billion want to leave India you still think the Quaid was wrong and Mr Azad was correct???


 
even if a quarter of that leave,we ll be happy,you know which quarter?



Rafi said:


> indians also need to ask themselves, what Gandhi thinks of modern india, regarding the Quaid - he is a hero - for what he achieved for our people, we have a country of our own.


 
who cares about gandhi man?



hotaki said:


> Azad or no Azad, British took over the land that was governed by the mughals, they named it British India, they ruled it for 200 years and as they left they gave independence to Pakistan and what was to become India.
> 
> Pakistan gained its independence first and India a day later, Mr Azad and his kind chose their fate and place in history and so did jinnah.
> 
> Jinnah wasn't the only person fighting for Pakistan, great like choudry rehmat are brushed under the carpet, being with Pakistan doesn't mean being with jinnah.
> 
> My love and loyalty for Pakistan is not because of jinnah as i have my own quaid, people wanted Pakistan and jinnah succeeded if people didn't want it would never happened.
> 
> Mr azad i hope can see his people being discriminated against, their place of worships destroyed, houses burnt, men and women set on fire, labelled as dalit converts non martial race. If he saw that he would have changed his name from azad to ghulam.


 
what were the mughals ruling in 18th century man?

The only muslim kingdoms then were Hyder Ali & Nizam.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## dravidianhero

jinnah cannot be compared to kalam azad even in the wildest of imaginations.azad was far ahead of jinnah in everything that is good.


----------



## MM_Haider

dravidianhero said:


> jinnah cannot be compared to kalam azad even in the wildest of imaginations.azad was far ahead of jinnah in everything that is good.



Abul Kalam Azad was short sighted while Jinnah wasn't..

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Bratva

Ijaz_Elahi said:


> Azad never supported two nation theory while Jinnah did....Jinnah was responsible for the mass murder of innocent civilians during Partition.....he did not survive long after creation of Pakistan...Allah punished him for his crime



It's on the record incident. The caretaker of Masjid -e-Nabi saw a dream on night of 11 septermber 1948. Prophet Mohammad (P.B.u.H) came in his dream and asked him "Jashan manao" One of my friends is coming to meet me. Care taker asked who is the friend My dear Prophet (P.b.U.H). He (PBUH) said, "It's Jinnah"

so keep your stinking thoughts with you, you moron



dravidianhero said:


> jinnah cannot be compared to kalam azad even in the wildest of imaginations.azad was far ahead of jinnah in everything that is good.



Stats speak for themselves. You are a moron who dont even know the history. Go read about 1946 General elections and read who win MAJORITY muslim seats. Your charismatic leader azad congress party or the short sighted Jinnah Party?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HappinessMark!

Ijaz_Elahi said:


> Azad never supported two nation theory while Jinnah did....Jinnah was responsible for the mass murder of innocent civilians during Partition.....he did not survive long after creation of Pakistan...Allah punished him for his crime



Are you muslim? Are you not hurting sentiments of those ALL muslims who all voted in all seats for a partition during 1946 election...you need to look it was people wish to go for a Pakistan and all seats in muslim majority area were won by Muslim league who aleardy declared a resolution for partion of INDIA in 1940...

Do you know Jinnah (may Allah bless his soul) was named 'as ambassodor of Unity' by Congress...It was congress and their policies that made him rightly think that partition is inevitable...What Allah do is the best benefit of everyone but we keep crying....I do understand those muslims who were in favor of union (they were thinking different way and they were thinking we muslim will be more united...we can't say those muslims who were in favor of partition or not in partitions were SINNER...they were seeing just having different views of their RIGHTS...WE are the most HAPPY NATION ON THE earth to pray for JInnah but I don't hate A.Kalam Azad (though Jinnah named him 'show boy of congress')...May be our muslim bro KAlam was viewing differently with sincereity for mulsim...like Jinnah was thinking differently and remember that it was muslim majority who voted for Muslim league who already declared partion of INDIA....So people wish was aligned with Muslim league, you can not blame Muhammad Jinnah...please see below how Jinnah was even ready for a federation:


> On April 25, 1946, he was *offered two alternatives *- *the Pakistan as it came to be established in 1947 and an Indian Union superimposed on groups of Muslim provinces*. Jinnah rejected *the first *and said he would consider the second if Congress did the same. His own proposals of May 12, 1946 envisaged, not Pakistan, but a confederation. [/B]If pressed he would have accepted a federation. He did so. He accepted the Mission's Plan.
> 
> The Mission propounded its plan on May 16, 1946 rejecting Pakistan and plumping instead for a Union confined to defence, foreign affairs and communication and based on three groups of provinces. It was, an "organic" union with enormous potential for growth.
> 
> Jinnah accepted it. Gandhi condemned grouping immediately and persisted in the opposition till the end. The Congress professed to accept the plan but so quibbled on grouping as to wreck the proposals.
> 
> THE Cabinet Mission's plan of May 16, 1946, envisaged an Indian federation based on three groups of provinces. The provinces were free to secede from the groups in which they were placed by a vote in the first general election after the scheme took effect. But they could not secede from the Union. India's unity was preserved. All they could ask for was "reconsideration of the terms of the Constitution" - a Sarkaria Commission - after 10 years and no more. It would have been open to provinces of Group A (the States which now form the Union of India) to confer on the Union voluntarily subjects beyond the minimum subjects of defence, foreign affairs and communication. Group B comprised Punjab, Sind, Baluchistan and the NWFP. Far from establishing a "weak" Centre, it would have yielded a strong centre for India of today in a federal union with Pakistan, in which India though had a majority, though confined to defence, foreign affairs and communication.
> 
> The plan broke down because the Congress refused to accept this grouping formula. It had 207 members in the Constituent Assembly against 73 of the League. In the crucial Group C, comprising Bengal and Assam, it had 32 members against 36 of the League, in a House of 70, with two Independents. Since the League would have had to provide a chairman to work the group, it would have been left with 35 members against 32 of the Congress. How could the League possibly have prevented Assam's secession? Yet it was this bogey which destroyed the last best chance for preserving India's unity.
> 
> As late as March 19, 1947 - less than three months before the Partition plan - the Viceroy, Lord Wavell, wrote to the Secretary of State for India, Pethick-Lawrence, that, having met Jinnah recently, Colin Reid, correspondent of The Daily Telegraph "got the impression that he might accept the Cabinet Mission's plan if the Congress accepted it in unequivocal terms". Mountbatten tried to secure that and failed. The Congress preferred India's partition to sharing power with the League in a united India.
> 
> In an interview with Jalal in 1980, a Punjab League leader, Mian Mumtaz Daultana, said that Jinnah never wanted a Pakistan which involved the Partition of India and was all in favour of the Mission's proposals. The Cabinet Mission's Plan was wrecked by the Congress as Chimanlal Setalvad rightly held.
> 
> The Congress was not consistent on the Partition. On April 2, 1942, the Congress Working

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HappinessMark!

mafiya bro says:



> ALL THE INDIAN LEADERS WHO WENT TO JAILS WERE BECAUSE INIDAN CONGRESS CALLED A MAJOR PROTEST AND STRIKE AGAINST BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND MUSLIM LEAGUE REFUSED TO FOLLOW INDIAN CONGRESS AT THAT TIME BY SAYING THEY WILL REMAIN PEACEFUL AND WILL SOLVE PROBLEMS THORIGH NEGOTIATIONS. SO NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM LEAGUE LEADER WENT TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY REMAIN PEACEFUL






Syama Ayas said:


> provide e-book links to those neutral history books. The above remain an opinion or conjecture to most , without any source
> 
> 
> 
> How can dead people have an opinion?



here is BBC link bro:
BBC - History - British History in depth: The Hidden Story of Partition and its Legacies



It is possible that Mohammed Ali Jinnah, leader of the Muslim League, simply wished to use the demand for a separate state as a bargaining chip to win greater power for Muslims 


With the cessation of hostilities, the battalions at the disposal of the government in India were rapidly diminished. At the same time, the infrastructure of the Congress Party, whose entire leadership was imprisoned due to their opposition to the war, had been dismantled. 

The Muslim League, which co-operated with the British, had rapidly increased its membership, yet still had very limited grassroots level organisation.


----------



## dravidianhero

see i know history very well...i dont read distorted history and believe it to be true..we cannot question the integrity and honesty of kalam...he was a true patriot...winning majority of seats in no way proves someones genuineness...MIM party in hyderabad wins a considerable amount of seats.yet,there is no improvement of muslims which can be attributed to MIM..majority of muslims india are illiterates even today.so,you can imagine the mental condition of muslims in 40s.i was only answering the question who among kalam and jinnah is better.I in no way disapproving partition.I sincerely believe parition is one of the good things happened to india..for your information there have always a been a good number of people even in india who have supported partition and i am one of them.

to add to my previous post these parties which call themselves representatives of muslims(like muslim league and MIM) are the very reasons for the backwardness of muslims..they for some strange reason dont allow muslims to participate with the interests and activities of non muslims...while everyone here in telangana is fighting for a separate statehood these MIM walas are going in the other direction..they are not supporting separate statehood and are mingling hands with andhra capitalists and imperialists(just muslim league supported british)


----------



## abu_mazhar

American Pakistani said:


> There is no comparision between the two. One was a Leader other was a Slave, one teach us to live with pride & honour other teach us to live in slavery. Yes the leader was our great nation's father, Great Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, other one was azad who was not even azad.
> 
> Long Live Pakistan.
> Pakistan Zindabad
> Quaid-e-Azam Zindabad




I m a newbie 

i beg to differ from your point of view . I've been to India my self and we do have our relatives there so i got to stay there for 1 month. so far i had seen The muslims in India are not treated like the way you potrayed as slaves like we treat the hindus in our country.they are much better and doing pretty well in India with all the basic needs and infracture provided to them infact Hindus-muslims Gel up as they share the same language , trend almost same life style dude in way . we are always been given a wrong impression bout indian muslism living condition is worse that the tribes even i use to feel the same once but once i visited India and Seen their living condition they are absolutely fine and they just love their country the same way we love pakistan .

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## vsdoc

abu_mazhar said:


> I m a newbie
> 
> i beg to differ from your point of view . I've been to India my self and we do have our relatives there so i got to stay there for 1 month. so far i had seen The muslims in India are not treated like the way you potrayed as slaves like we treat the hindus in our country.they are much better and doing pretty well in India with all the basic needs and infracture provided to them infact Hindus-muslims Gel up as they share the same language , trend almost same life style dude in way . we are always been given a wrong impression bout indian muslism living condition is worse that the tribes even i use to feel the same once but once i visited India and Seen their living condition they are absolutely fine and they just love their country the same way we love pakistan .



Thanks bro. Appreciate your honesty.


----------



## born

> I m a newbie
> 
> i beg to differ from your point of view . I've been to India my self and we do have our relatives there so i got to stay there for 1 month. so far i had seen The muslims in India are not treated like the way you potrayed as slaves like we treat the hindus in our country.they are much better and doing pretty well in India with all the basic needs and infracture provided to them infact Hindus-muslims Gel up as they share the same language , trend almost same life style dude in way . we are always been given a wrong impression bout indian muslism living condition is worse that the tribes even i use to feel the same once but once i visited India and Seen their living condition they are absolutely fine and they just love their country the same way we love pakistan .



dude..u r in trouble!!!


----------



## ice_man

it is weird how indians seem to think Mahrana partap WAS A HERO BECAUSE HE NEVER YIELDED to A MUSLIM RULER AKBAR, however, RANA SANGA the man who like A.KALAM.AZAAD believed in "co existence" is hated!! 

when the situation is reversed and Jinnah takes on the role of MAHRANA PARTAP he is hated and a traitor like KALAM AZAAD is made a hero.


----------



## Contrarian

superkaif said:


> You have an opinion and i have an opinion. My opinion will perhaps differ from your opinion - i will respect that. What i wont respect is people diversifying off topic and talking about events AFTER which have no bearing on Jinnah VS Azad.
> What i see on this thread is Pakistan praising Jinnah and Indians praising Azad. What i also see is a lot of trolls and excitable chaps not prepared to accept that BOTH nations have issues. Not 1 Indian has come on here to say they have issues - a sense of "our land is perfect - yours aint." If you guys want to live in a shell thinking that - thats fine but dont expect the rest of the world to believe your dellusional state.



Frankly most of the Indians here say that India is doing better than Pakistan. No one is saying that the country is perfect. 

Everyone just says one thing and consistently so - We are improving. India was always secular - a good amount of its people were not. And as with time, Indians are getting more and more secular. 

Incase you have not noticed, there are fewer riots, fewer communal flare ups in India now compared to the earlier days. So people are assured that they are on the right path. The country is moving towards its ideals -slowly yet steadily- which is what matters to us. 

And you know the reason why this happening - because the successive governments in India have all put money behind that one golden thing - education. More and more of this country is getting educated by the decade and at a faster rate than the preceding one. 
And with each passing decade, India will get better because of this single biggest factor. People are not as gullible as they were years back. 

So yes, riots happened, but since you lot like to follow news you would *ALSO* have come across something interesting - for the first time in India, people who participated in riots and killed others - *have been convicted*. It happened for the first time in India - this year itself, the courts convicted people. So India is moving forwards!

I have been on this forum long enough to witness the days when Pakistani members used to gloat that despite India having a bigger economy, Pakistan had a *higher* per capita income. That ran out a while back. 

Today Pakistani members find solace in mentioning the communal riots in India as proof of India not being secular - give it another 10 years, you will find that that point will also have outrun its shelf life. 

On the other hand, when you look at Pakistan, you find that it is getting more and more radicalized by the decade. You find intolerance increasing over the years. You find more communal strife in Pakistan now than before.

*Lastly the difference in thinking comes at this particular point:

Many of my Pakistani friends have mentioned(repeatedly) that Abul Kalam Azad was a traitor to his people and hero to his people's enemies. I would like to point out that most people in India(read point above about Indians becoming more and secular) consider ALL Indians as his people regardless of their religion or ethnicity. His contributions in many fields has helped Indians. Period.

Abul Kalam Azad is a hero to his people - Indians.

Therein lies the difference between Pakistani members thought processes and ours.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tinu

Who is this guy A Kalam ?????


----------



## Inqhilab

MAULANA ABUL KALAM AZAD​
*Born in MECCA ,Started Urdu weekly Al HILAL & Al BALAGH when he was student,within 3 months circulation of Al Hilal reached 26000 copies per week figure which was unheard in Urdu journalism till then, and for this he was arrested by british under press act for consipiring against Raj from 1916 to 1920.
*

*President of All India Khilafat Commititee in 1924 ,led the people to the Viceroy to acquaint him with the feelings of Indian Muslims regarding khilafat . President of Nationalist Muslim Conference 1928.*

*President of Indian National congress 1923 to 1925 and again from 1940 to 1946 . Interestingly to note when Mr.jinnah said that muslims in free india will not be properly represented the Presidents of the 2 most powerful parties INC & Muslim league were muslim.*

*Lead the disscusions with CRIPPS MISSION for INDIAN NATIONAL CONGRESS in 1942 and was instrumental in arranging the disscussion between Mr. CRIPPS and other nationalist muslim leaders Sikandar Hayat Khan (leader of undivided punjab who defeated Jinnah's Muslim in election) ,Allah Bux Soomro(leader of sind who defeated Jinnah's ML), Badshah Khan (defeated jinnah's ML in Kyber).*

* President of Indian national congress During Historic QUIT INDIA movement for which was arrested from 1941-1946,because he didn't wanted the indian solider Hindu Muslim or Sikh to die in Eroupe's World war.Jinnah was exactly doing what he was told by his british masters(gave full support to use Indian troops).*

* It was his idea of autonomy to the states in undivided india after independance to resolve the communal issue during BRITISH CABINET MISSION 1946 ,Intrestingly Mr.Jinnah accepted this proposal(proposal of Muslimof the minority problemand said three days after the there could be no fairer solution for muslims than this plan and accepted the scheme.But as we know later he withdraw from his commitment. *

*So this Showboy (who spent more than decade in prisions)did everything he could for the muslims of undivided India .but as we know his Hindu Muslim unity idea was defeated by the hate spreaded by Jinnah(who didn't even went to jail for single day and pakistani's say he fought british).*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

I think eventually partition was for best,now no side can say we were suppressed by hindus or held back by muslims.This is a closed issue.We are 2 soveriegn nations.Look forward.Hopefully someday we may get somewhere.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## faizahmad

Indian Muslim&#39;s Predictions About Pakistan Coming True - YouTube

This link is from a Pakistani channel ,,,,, MUST WATCH


----------



## ice_man

ice_man said:


> it is weird how indians seem to think Mahrana partap WAS A HERO BECAUSE HE NEVER YIELDED to A MUSLIM RULER AKBAR, however, RANA SANGA the man who like A.KALAM.AZAAD believed in "co existence" is hated!!
> 
> when the situation is reversed and Jinnah takes on the role of MAHRANA PARTAP he is hated and a traitor like KALAM AZAAD is made a hero.



HISTORY in PAKISTAN will remember kalam as the traitor to muslim cause! he should be blamed for GUJARAT MASSACRE & BOMBAY RIOTS OF 92! while in india they will disrespect Jinnah.

this fact will never change


----------



## RAJPUTAANA

ice_man said:


> HISTORY in PAKISTAN will remember kalam as the traitor to muslim cause! he should be blamed for GUJARAT MASSACRE & BOMBAY RIOTS OF 92! while in india they will disrespect Jinnah.
> 
> this fact will never change



u can believe whatever u want and yes pakistan needs to make jinnah a hero else u know the consequences...... but truth is that hindu-muslims had lived peacefully till this concept of pakistan popped up.......... hindu-muslims together revolted against the britishers in 1857..... but things changed after concept of pakistan came up.... jinnah very well knew he wud never become PM or say father of a nation called INDIA...... i blame him for massacre of muslims-hindu-sikhs during 1947 and for every riot that has happened in india after 1947..... jinnah sowed the seeds for hindu-muslim divide for his personal ego

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kumarkumar1867

Inqhilab said:


> MAULANA ABUL KALAM AZAD​
> *Born in MECCA ,Started Urdu weekly Al HILAL & Al BALAGH when he was student,within 3 months circulation of Al Hilal reached 26000 copies per week figure which was unheard in Urdu journalism till then, and for this he was arrested by british under press act for consipiring against Raj from 1916 to 1920.
> *
> 
> *President of All India Khilafat Commititee in 1924 ,led the people to the Viceroy to acquaint him with the feelings of Indian Muslims regarding khilafat . President of Nationalist Muslim Conference 1928.*
> 
> *President of Indian National congress 1923 to 1925 and again from 1940 to 1946 . Interestingly to note when Mr.jinnah said that muslims in free india will not be properly represented the Presidents of the 2 most powerful parties INC & Muslim league were muslim.*
> 
> *Lead the disscusions with CRIPPS MISSION for INDIAN NATIONAL CONGRESS in 1942 and was instrumental in arranging the disscussion between Mr. CRIPPS and other nationalist muslim leaders Sikandar Hayat Khan (leader of undivided punjab who defeated Jinnah's Muslim in election) ,Allah Bux Soomro(leader of sind who defeated Jinnah's ML), Badshah Khan (defeated jinnah's ML in Kyber).*
> 
> * President of Indian national congress During Historic QUIT INDIA movement for which was arrested from 1941-1946,because he didn't wanted the indian solider Hindu Muslim or Sikh to die in Eroupe's World war.Jinnah was exactly doing what he was told by his british masters(gave full support to use Indian troops).*
> 
> * It was his idea of autonomy to the states in undivided india after independance to resolve the communal issue during BRITISH CABINET MISSION 1946 ,Intrestingly Mr.Jinnah accepted this proposal(proposal of Muslimof the minority problemand said three days after the there could be no fairer solution for muslims than this plan and accepted the scheme.But as we know later he withdraw from his commitment. *
> 
> *So this Showboy (who spent more than decade in prisions)did everything he could for the muslims of undivided India .but as we know his Hindu Muslim unity idea was defeated by the hate spreaded by Jinnah(who didn't even went to jail for single day and pakistani's say he fought british).*


 
Very Nice Post, But I am sure No Pakistani will READ, VERIFY OR COMMENT on this post !!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## faizahmad

ice_man said:


> HISTORY in PAKISTAN will remember kalam as the traitor to muslim cause! he should be blamed for GUJARAT MASSACRE & BOMBAY RIOTS OF 92! while in india they will disrespect Jinnah.
> 
> this fact will never change



Keep ur self proclaimed facts with u. for every Indian Muslims Sir Azad will forever remain a role model (may ALLAH grant Him Highest Level of Jannah), it was not only azad but most of the Indian Muslims themself opposed Migration to Pakistan except the Biharis and Punjabis in a Big Number along with a bunch of jamat-islamia .but that doesn't makes a total muslim population of entire India.

But If u are blaming AZAD for Gujrath riots which Almost took ten years b4 Then even we should Blame Mr Jinnah for the bloodshed which took place in 1947 And All the killings which took place in Pakistan including ethenic ,provincial and political killings Which takes place in ur country till date . 

Atlest we do not suffer from such thing in India coz we are still one nation

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Panjabi Tiger

Viva baba quaid-e-azam


----------



## Rusty

faizahmad said:


> Keep ur self proclaimed facts with u. for every Indian Muslims Sir Azad will forever remain a role model (may ALLAH grant Him Highest Level of Jannah), it was not only azad but most of the Indian Muslims themself opposed Migration to Pakistan except the Biharis and Punjabis in a Big Number along with a bunch of jamat-islamia .but that doesn't makes a total muslim population of entire India.
> 
> But If u are blaming AZAD for Gujrath riots which Almost took ten years b4 Then even we should Blame Mr Jinnah for the bloodshed which took place in 1947 And All the killings which took place in Pakistan including ethenic ,provincial and political killings Which takes place in ur country till date .
> 
> Atlest we do not suffer from such thing in India coz we are still one nation



....wow, it seems like even the "Muslims" in India are infected with the Indian disease of living in LaLa land. 
For the love of God, half your country is occupied by the Maoists. You have a divide between North and South India and you have had communal violence regularly. 

Please come back to reality, it will be the for you guys.


----------



## kumarkumar1867

Rusty said:


> ....wow, it seems like even the "Muslims" in India are infected with the Indian disease of living in LaLa land.
> For the love of God, half your country is occupied by the Maoists. You have a divide between North and South India and you have had communal violence regularly.
> 
> Please come *back to reality*, it will be the for you guys.



Hahahaha.... Get Back to Reality??

I am living in one of the most populated & culturally muslim dominated City Auranagabad in India. 
Here Muslims are significant community with high standard of living. No doubt there are poor muslims too.Same is the condition with some cities I visited & resided like Hyderabad, Ahmednagar,Pune. Neither I ever saw divide between my hindu or muslim classmates, friends or neighbourers.

I guess You are displaying what you are taught & fed about India & Indian muslims in Pakistan.But Dude, condition is totally opposite here. We pity you for your missunderstanding about Indian Muslims. 

I hope You *Get Well Soon*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ice_man

RAJPUTAANA said:


> u can believe whatever u want and yes pakistan needs to make jinnah a hero else u know the consequences...... but truth is that hindu-muslims had lived peacefully till this concept of pakistan popped up.......... hindu-muslims together revolted against the britishers in 1857..... but things changed after concept of pakistan came up.... jinnah very well knew he wud never become PM or say father of a nation called INDIA...... i blame him for massacre of muslims-hindu-sikhs during 1947 and for every riot that has happened in india after 1947..... jinnah sowed the seeds for hindu-muslim divide for his personal ego



so hindu muslims never fought each other during the moghuls??? & let's not forget bombay riots of 1990s or gujrat massacre! 

who told you muslims & hindus lived peacefully? if so then i think all your claims of Moghuls killig hindus & all is a lie! because you can't pick one and chose to ignore the other!


----------



## Redbull

I don't know about other Indian muslims but where I live in London, theyre's is a big community of Gujrati Muslims and even though they support India in cricket matches, whenever you ask them where they are from they say Gujirat and always refer to themselves as Guji to the point where many people thought Gujirat was a different country. It is like those Iranians who are ashamed of connecting themselves to Iran and then refer to themselves as Persians.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Khudi said:


> I don't know about other Indian muslims but where I live in London, theyre's is a big community of Gujrati Muslims and even though they support India in cricket matches, whenever you ask them where they are from they say Gujirat and always refer to themselves as Guji to the point where many people thought Gujirat was a different country. It is like those Iranians who are ashamed of connecting themselves to Iran and then refer to themselves as Persians.


 
Same goes for the indian sikhs... ask em where they are from.... and they say panjab.. as if its a seprate country...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## JonAsad

Maulana Azad was an innocent short sighted person- 
Thats why maulanas should be kept away from politics-


----------



## EjazR

ice_man said:


> so hindu muslims never fought each other during the moghuls??? & let's not forget bombay riots of 1990s or gujrat massacre!
> 
> who told you muslims & hindus lived peacefully? if so then i think all your claims of Moghuls killig hindus & all is a lie! because you can't pick one and chose to ignore the other!



See the problem is that you and (others like you including on the Indian side) see history only in religious terms. Did you know that Mughals strongest alliance partner where Hindu Rajputs that played a major role in extending their rule across India. Did you know that Muslim Pathans and Punjabis actually revolted against Mughal rule a number of times? Similarly take the example of Shivaji who formed the Maratha empire. He was fighting the Mughals but had a big section of his army comprising of Muslims. The chief of his army and head of his navy were both Muslims (King Shivaji and His Muslim Warriors)

And yes, ofcourse the Mumbai riots and the Gujarat riots are a blot for India. In both cases between 1000-2000 people were killed and in some cases there was collusion by the state machinery. But these are considered as blots and there are cases AND convictions against those involved in the riots. Maybe you don't know but 100s of people have been put in jail for life for multiple killings during the riots.

But is that any different to what the PAkistani Army did in say Bangladesh? How many were court martialed and how many were imprisoned for life for killing their fellow Muslim country men? What about the current situation in FATA and Balochistan?

Even Jinnah wasn't sure about Pakistan and if we are to believe Ayesha Jalal, he never wanted Pakistan in reality. The only problem was he didn't know when to stop when demanding concessions and messed up the end game.


Pakistanis who can see through the painful process of introspection already realise that Jinnah made a mistake. A neutral observer with no emotional investment in Pakistan would say that Maulana Azad was right and Jinnah was wrong. Jinnah's politics is a lesson for those who aspire for religious natianalist politics and how failed policies are created by doing so. Muslims should learn a lesson from this and keep parties like JI and the more crazier ones like Taliban and Hizbut Tahrir at bay because we already have an example of failed politics using a religious nationalist agenda.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## shelly

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Same goes for the indian sikhs... ask em where they are from.... and they say panjab.. as if its a seprate country...


and you ask a pakistani abroad where they are from .. they say haan wahin se hi (from around there only) as if the country never existed.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## faizahmad

EjazR said:


> See the problem is that you and (others like you including on the Indian side) see history only in religious terms. Did you know that Mughals strongest alliance partner where Hindu Rajputs that played a major role in extending their rule across India. Did you know that Muslim Pathans and Punjabis actually revolted against Mughal rule a number of times? Similarly take the example of Shivaji who formed the Maratha empire. He was fighting the Mughals but had a big section of his army comprising of Muslims. The chief of his army and head of his navy were both Muslims (King Shivaji and His Muslim Warriors)
> 
> And yes, ofcourse the Mumbai riots and the Gujarat riots are a blot for India. In both cases between 1000-2000 people were killed and in some cases there was collusion by the state machinery. But these are considered as blots and there are cases AND convictions against those involved in the riots. Maybe you don't know but 100s of people have been put in jail for life for multiple killings during the riots.
> 
> But is that any different to what the PAkistani Army did in say Bangladesh? How many were court martialed and how many were imprisoned for life for killing their fellow Muslim country men? What about the current situation in FATA and Balochistan?
> 
> Even Jinnah wasn't sure about Pakistan and if we are to believe Ayesha Jalal, he never wanted Pakistan in reality. The only problem was he didn't know when to stop when demanding concessions and messed up the end game.
> 
> 
> Pakistanis who can see through the painful process of introspection already realise that Jinnah made a mistake. A neutral observer with no emotional investment in Pakistan would say that Maulana Azad was right and Jinnah was wrong. Jinnah's politics is a lesson for those who aspire for religious natianalist politics and how failed policies are created by doing so. Muslims should learn a lesson from this and keep parties like JI and the more crazier ones like Taliban and Hizbut Tahrir at bay because we already have an example of failed politics using a religious nationalist agenda.


 
I Fully Agree with you ejaz


----------



## ice_man

EjazR said:


> Even Jinnah wasn't sure about Pakistan and if we are to believe Ayesha Jalal, he never wanted Pakistan in reality. The only problem was he didn't know when to stop when demanding concessions and messed up the end game.
> 
> 
> Pakistanis who can see through the painful process of introspection already realise that Jinnah made a mistake. A neutral observer with no emotional investment in Pakistan would say that Maulana Azad was right and Jinnah was wrong. Jinnah's politics is a lesson for those who aspire for religious natianalist politics and how failed policies are created by doing so. Muslims should learn a lesson from this and keep parties like JI and the more crazier ones like Taliban and Hizbut Tahrir at bay because we already have an example of failed politics using a religious nationalist agenda.




EPIC just epic nonsense! i believe the day Kashmir was annexed by hindu india & hyderabad was annexed! the mualana azaad's beliefs were shown to be just too idealistic! 

as for Jinnah well the fact that we Pakistanis are mastwers of our own destiny (good or bad) is more than an enough reason for us to be proud and see the far sightedness of our visionary leader! 

and as for religious nations well i believe israel is the ultimate example of a religious nation however, i don't see the same approach by indians in condemning them? the reason is simple indian hindu nation can not accept a muslim nation as a reality! since the creation of pakistan it hurts every indian hindu like a thorn in the palm that Pakistan still survives! 

as for indian muslims they still WISH & PRAY Pakistan fails so that finally maybe the MISTAKE their forefathers made might seem to be not so much of a MISTAKE!


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> as for indian muslims they still WISH & PRAY Pakistan fails so that finally maybe the MISTAKE their forefathers made might seem to be not so much of a MISTAKE!



You mean they are STILL praying for MORE?


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> You mean they are STILL praying for MORE?



people who have no freedom can never realize the pleasures of freedom. good or bad we decide our fate. and why the double standards when it comes to israel?


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> good or bad we decide our fate.



Really? You mean the current state of your country is what you collectively wished upon it by choice?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> Really? You mean the current state of your country is what you collectively wished upon it by choice?



AAAAH dodging the israel question are we now? scared to be exposed as having double standards???


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> AAAAH dodging the israel question are we now? scared to be exposed as having double standards???



What Israel question? I thought we were discussing Jinnah and Azad, and the decisions of two groups of muslims. Who is vindicated, who not. What about Israel?


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> What Israel question? I thought we were discussing Jinnah and Azad, and the decisions of two groups of muslims. Who is vindicated, who not. What about Israel?



so clearly you didn't read what i wrote and just ranted! hence no point talking to a lunatic however, if the self proclaimed mualana azaad was so good bangladesh would have joined india & not chosen independence! maulana azaad fooled his followers! FREE MUSLIM NATION is a concept that muslims institutionalised in India would never understand. 

just something you can look up in history:

*Azad grew disillusioned with Islamic teachings and was inspired by the modern views of Muslim educationalist Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, who had promoted rationalism. Increasingly doubtful of religious dogma, Azad entered a period of self-described "atheism" and "sinfulness" that lasted for almost a decade.*

No matter what the situation or condition Pakistanis are glad that they CHOSE Pakistan rather than stay back and be institutionalised in india.


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> so clearly you didn't read what i wrote and just ranted! hence no point talking to a lunatic however, if the self proclaimed mualana azaad was so good bangladesh would have joined india & not chosen independence! maulana azaad fooled his followers! FREE MUSLIM NATION is a concept that muslims institutionalised in India would never understand.



Bangladesh became Bangladesh and was allowed to remain Bangladesh because it suited India to have it so. I hope you understand that there was not democratic process involved in the aftermath of 1971. That Bangladesh did not want to remain Pakistan put the final nail in the coffin of Jinnah and proved the validity of what Azad predicted. The first and bigger nail being half the muslim population choosing to remain Indian in 1947. So, I repeat, what about Israel?


----------



## faizahmad

angeldust said:


> You mean they are STILL praying for MORE?



Sorry we do not have any thing to do with pakistan neither we are suffering from any kind of a complex... All I know is we Love our country more than you do ,,, at the end of the day we are 2 differnt nations.. If You are enjoying pleasures of freedom of religion so do we too nothing is stopping us here too.


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> Bangladesh became Bangladesh and was allowed to remain Bangladesh because it suited India to have it so. I hope you understand that there was not democratic process involved in the aftermath of 1971. That Bangladesh did not want to remain Pakistan put the final nail in the coffin of Jinnah and proved the validity of what Azad predicted. The first and bigger nail being half the muslim population choosing to remain Indian in 1947. So, I repeat, what about Israel?



so basically india decided on fate of bangladesh? besides the agitagtion that was clearly backed by india for personal gains. IF AZAAD was correct the bangladeshis woould have decided that yes jinnah's concept was flawed & a united india was better & would have joined "MUALANA" beliefs but they never did. clearly that was infact the final nail in the coffin of azaad's beliefs! because at the end of the day once a MUSLIM is FREE he will never come back to being institutionalised! 

the people who remained in india were SCARED hence never migrated & hence they regret their decision & pray that Pakistan fails so that they can feel better! 

now the ISRAEL question:

israel is also made as a religious NATION why aren't the indians condemning that as a nation??? why the double standards?


----------



## ice_man

faizahmad said:


> Sorry we do not have any thing to do with pakistan neither we are suffering from any kind of a complex... All I know is we Love our country more than you do ,,, at the end of the day we are 2 differnt nations.. If You are enjoying pleasures of freedom of religion so do we too nothing is stopping us here too.



i don't blame you for your thinking. the people who are instituionalised never know what FREEDOM really means. for example a child born and raised in prision will never know what the world is like outside the walls. 

so yes carry on believing what you do until you experience freedom. If Azaad's unity was such a good concept balgadesh would have rejoined india and admitted they made a mistake and jinnah was wrong. however, they had been freed so they chose to remain free!


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> so basically india decided on fate of bangladesh? besides the agitagtion that was clearly backed by india for personal gains. IF AZAAD was correct the bangladeshis woould have decided that yes jinnah's concept was flawed & a united india was better & would have joined "MUALANA" beliefs but they never did. clearly that was infact the final nail in the coffin of azaad's beliefs! because at the end of the day once a MUSLIM is FREE he will never come back to being institutionalised!



Why did India need to absorb Bangladesh in 1971? And take into the fold 150 million anti-Hindu "institurionalized" Muslims? When it would be so much easier to keep them isolated and quarantined?



> now the ISRAEL question:
> 
> israel is also made as a religious NATION why aren't the indians condemning that as a nation??? why the double standards?



I do not speak for India but my personal view is that Israel always belonged to the Jewish people. They are re-claiming what was always theirs. And keeping it by force if and where necessary. Isn't that how a lot of what is now Muslim land the world over was taken originally in the first place? So why the double standards? I'm sure the Palestines would be welcomed back (right of return) if they reverted to their original faith. Without the fear of apostasy either.


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> Why did India need to absorb Bangladesh in 1971? And take into the fold 150 million anti-Hindu "institurionalized" Muslims? When it would be so much easier to keep them isolated and quarantined?
> 
> 
> 
> I do not speak for India but my personal view is that Israel always belonged to the Jewish people. They are re-claiming what was always theirs. And keeping it by force if and where necessary. Isn't that how a lot of what is now Muslim land the world over was taken originally in the first place? So why the double standards? I'm sure the Palestines would be welcomed back (right of return) if the reverted to their original faith. Without the fear of apostasy either.



well no bangladeshi ever came up and say Jinnah made a mistake & we should have hung around with MUALANA did they? & anti hindu bangladesh? do you know bangladesh has hindus minority don't you? the BANGLADESHIS MUSLIMS chose to be master of their own fate THAT my friend is the TRUE IDEA OF PAKISTAN. 


so finally your hypocrisy is revealed regarding israel. the israelis can have their land and palistenians can rejoin israel ONLY IF THEY CONVERT TO becoming JEWISH! 

what the indian muslims don't realise that Pakistan indirectly safeguards there interest! otherwise you would treat them how you like the israeli jews to treat the palestanian muslims. the EXISTENCE of Pakistan keeps people's IDEOLOGY LIKE YOUR's in check! 

Palestanians RULED the holy land until the jews were FORCEFULLY put there so that the muslims & jews fight each other while the christians progress. 

your stand on jewish state clearly exposes your hate for muslims.


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> well no bangladeshi ever came up and say Jinnah made a mistake & we should have hung around with MUALANA did they? & anti hindu bangladesh? do you know bangladesh has hindus minority don't you? the BANGLADESHIS MUSLIMS chose to be master of their own fate THAT my friend is the TRUE IDEA OF PAKISTAN.



Bangladesh was too far gone by 1971. 24 years of poison is a long time. Had it happened earlier, maybe India would have taken it back into her fold. As things stand now, we would like to keep them confined to their borders. Strategically, it makes no difference. Something Pakistan has for long looked at Afghanistan as. 



> So finally your hypocrisy is revealed regarding israel. the israelis can have their land and palistenians can rejoin israel ONLY IF THEY CONVERT TO becoming JEWISH!
> 
> what the indian muslims don't realise that Pakistan indirectly safeguards there interest! otherwise you would treat them how you like the israeli jews to treat the palestanian muslims. the EXISTENCE of Pakistan keeps people's IDEOLOGY LIKE YOUR's in check!
> 
> Palestanians RULED the holy land until the jews were FORCEFULLY put there so that the muslims & jews fight each other while the christians progress.
> 
> your stand on jewish state clearly exposes your hate for muslims.



Well, I don't know about hypocrisy, but what should one call it when a Muslim laments about someone being forced out of their own land and asked to convert by force? The Jews are re-taking what was always theirs. They want a Jewish state. They do not have an issue with the natives being there as long as the re-vert. Is that so alien a concept for you?


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> Bangladesh was too far gone by 1971. 24 years of poison is a long time. Had it happened earlier, maybe India would have taken it back into her fold. As things stand now, we would like to keep them confined to their borders. Strategically, it makes no difference. Something Pakistan has for long looked at Afghanistan as.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I don't know about hypocrisy, but what should one call it when a Muslim laments about someone being forced out of their own land and asked to convert by force? The Jews are re-taking what was always theirs. They want a Jewish state. They do not have an issue with the natives being there as long as the re-vert. Is that so alien a concept for you?



was it 24 years of poision against india? IF so then East Paksitan would have not tried for independence would they because clearly then there enemy would have been India & not their western wing? so clearly they were not poisoned by us & hence the mualana's theory is a flop. they preferred to go their own way & not even consider rejoining "all muslims of india united" theory that 7 times president of congress (mualana) had supported. 


now turning to the jews of israel who said it was their land? & this whole thing of if palsetanians convert they can stay logic do you apply to india? because clearly you can't have 2 views to a similar situation? jew under salahudin were protected & allowed to practise their religion. 

even in the 40s when they came to the palestanian lands the palestanians treated them well only for them to turn around hit the actual settlers of the land.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> was it 24 years of poision against india? IF so then East Paksitan would have not tried for independence would they because clearly then there enemy would have been India & not their western wing? so clearly they were not poisoned by us & hence the mualana's theory is a flop. they preferred to go their own way & not even consider rejoining "all muslims of india united" theory that 7 times president of congress (mualana) had supported.



The poison is of isolationism and intolerance. Once that is coursing in your viens, you will find a reason to fight. First muslim on muslim, and when that is done, muslim on hindu. That is why India chose to cauterize that wound and prevent the poison from percolating within. Azad predicted it correctly. Uncannily so. What was a flop was Jinnah's confused two nation theory, which started crumblin from the day it was born, and died the day India broke Pakistan into two.



> now turning to the jews of israel who said it was their land? & this whole thing of if palsetanians convert they can stay logic do you apply to india? because clearly you can't have 2 views to a similar situation? jew under salahudin were protected & allowed to practise their religion.
> 
> even in the 40s when they came to the palestanian lands the palestanians treated them well only for them to turn around hit the actual settlers of the land.



Would you like to start another discussion with regard to Israel. I am getting confused debating two unrelated chains of thought here.

Simply put, Israel, the Holy Land, was home to the Jews and Judaism long before Islam or Saladin. The Jews came home to reclaim their Holy Land. From what I have read, Islam is a continuation of Christianity and before it of Judaism. They are all linked as what is commonly called Abrahamic faiths. People of the book. Your holy book says much the same, and allows you special rights when it comes to marriage and relationships within these three interlinekd faiths. Why then should the Palestines, converts to Islam, have a problem with re-verting back to their parent faith?


----------



## rubyjackass

Farah Sohail said:


> Yes.. Indians should be proud of him, bcoz he never stood up for Muslim rights, to show his loyalty to Congress..he was Shah se ziada shah ka wafadaar... Until, I hadnt read his book "India wins freedom" i had no feelings for him.. I thought he only politically disagreed with Muslim League, but I have developed special hatred for him, after reading his book...He accused Quaid-e-Azam of being an opportunist(which even Quaid's worst critics never accused him..of) , also he said tht Gandhi had given unnecessary importance to Jinnah, which he wasnt worthy of.... He always spoke about Quaid-e-Azam in a very insulting manner...He never stood up for Muslims rights


 Whatever Jinnah gained in the negotiations with the British or with the Congress, it is by being stubborn and immovable. These gains include Pakistan. People like Gandhi who are naive and accommodating and thought Indians should not fight among themselves got basically ziclh while losing a lot. Every time Quaid played this game, he returned victor to show his League subjects the spoils until Patel, Rajaji and others finally managed to convince Gandhi and spoiled the party for him(with partition of Punjab and Bengal as a condition for partition). So yes, I agree with what Azad said.


And you are saying Azad spoke about Quaid-e-Azam in a very insulting manner?! They way your Quaid spoke about Azad is there before you in the telegram of OP. Quaid-e-Azam used to do the same to Azad even in the public(If he could afford such an indecent reply in a telegram, we can only imagine what were the words used in League sessions for Azad). Whether Azad stood up for muslim rights is your opinion. The way we see it, he stood for all Indians.



Look at the telegram conversation. It speaks for itself. Azad asked a decent question on Quaid's stance. What he gets back is a reply with personal insults and derogatory remarks. And you people call Quaid 'upright' for the reply?! No wonder Quaid is blemish-less for you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> The poison is of isolationism and intolerance. Once that is coursing in your viens, you will find a reason to fight. First muslim on muslim, and when that is done, muslim on hindu. That is why India chose to cauterize that wound and prevent the poison from percolating within. Azad predicted it correctly. Uncannily so. What was a flop was Jinnah's confused two nation theory, which started crumblin from the day it was born, and died the day India broke Pakistan into two.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like to start another discussion with regard to Israel. I am getting confused debating two unrelated chains of thought here.
> 
> Simply put, Israel, the Holy Land, was home to the Jews and Judaism long before Islam or Saladin. The Jews came home to reclaim their Holy Land. From what I have read, Islam is a continuation of Christianity and before it of Judaism. They are all linked as what is commonly called Abrahamic faiths. People of the book.* Your holy book says much the same, and allows you special rights when it comes to marriage and relationships within these three interlinekd faiths. Why then should the Palestines, converts to Islam, have a problem with re-verting back to their parent faith*?



ok you keep repating your rant don't you. IF your MUALANA's ideology of a united india where muslims & hindus had actually been correct then the bangladeshis would have realized & joined india not said well thank you but we prefer to REMAIN a FREE NATION! clearly that killed the ideology of MUALANA that muslims should all submit to hindu rule & stay indian! after all the "poision" that you speak of was from Pakistan right & not towards india was it? 

there was no poison in any veins but in the heart of india & its people because they couldn't bare to have lost there AKHAND BHARAT dream & see MUSLIMS stand up for themselves & rule themselves! 


the bold part shows your intelligence level & i am mistaken to have even tried to debate with such a fool who clearly has no idea about history or faith. 

but i leave you with this so if the land belonged to hindus before then according to your theory about palestanians should convert to judaism because this land once belonged to jews(which clearly it never did) the muslims in india should convert to hinduism?? because clearly the land was hindu once right? WHAT a DUMB logic you have their mate!


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> but i leave you with this so if the land belonged to hindus before then according to your theory about palestanians should convert to judaism because this land once belonged to jews(which clearly it never did) the muslims in india should convert to hinduism?? because clearly the land was hindu once right? WHAT a DUMB logic you have their mate!



India is a secular state. For all faiths. Israel is a Jewish state. They are well within their rights to decide which faith they allow on their land or not. So does India. We made our decision. They made theirs. You made yours. Bangladesh's was made for them by the victors who handed them their land. There was not much in the way of choice involved when you have an army encamped on your soil.

On the issue of Azad and his predictions, or Jinnah and his TNT, history is witness to who was right and who got it all wrong. Ask anyone outside the subcontinent if you want an unbiased opinion, since most of us are too polarized in our views.


----------



## ice_man

rubyjackass said:


> Whatever Jinnah gained in the negotiations with the British or with the Congress, it is by being stubborn and immovable. These gains include Pakistan. People like Gandhi who are naive and accommodating and thought Indians should not fight among themselves got basically ziclh while losing a lot. Every time Quaid played this game, he returned victor to show his League subjects the spoils until Patel, Rajaji and others finally managed to convince Gandhi and spoiled the party for him(with partition of Punjab and Bengal as a condition for partition). So yes, I agree with what Azad said.
> 
> 
> And you are saying Azad spoke about Quaid-e-Azam in a very insulting manner?! They way your Quaid spoke about Azad is there before you in the telegram of OP. Quaid-e-Azam used to do the same to Azad even in the public(If he could afford such an indecent reply in a telegram, we can only imagine what were the words used in League sessions for Azad). Whether Azad stood up for muslim rights is your opinion. The way we see it, he stood for all Indians.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the telegram conversation. It speaks for itself. Azad asked a decent question on Quaid's stance. What he gets back is a reply with personal insults and derogatory remarks. And you people call Quaid 'upright' for the reply?! No wonder Quaid is blemish-less for you.




firstly what Quaid said is not derogatry it is how a CARING person speaks to a friend to try and discourage him from something that will eventually harm him! what Quaid was telling in plain words to MAULANA was DON'T play into the hands of the congressmen they will fool you & your followers. use you as a pawn! i sir don't see anything wrong in that FACT. 


*so atleast you admit that PATIL and raja "spoilt" the plan? that is exactly why the massacre happened because punjab & bangladesh* were split up & hence the blame of the mssacre lands right on the doorstep of patil! & this was followed up by NEHRU regarding the Junagadh & Kashmir disputes!



angeldust said:


> India is a secular state. For all faiths. Israel is a Jewish state. They are well within their rights to decide which faith they allow on their land or not. So does India. We made our decision. They made theirs. You made yours. Bangladesh's was made for them by the victors who handed them their land. There was not much in the way of choice involved when you have an army encamped on your soil.
> 
> On the issue of Azad and his predictions, or Jinnah and his TNT, history is witness to who was right and who got it all wrong. Ask anyone outside the subcontinent if you want an unbiased opinion, since most of us are too polarized in our views.




so basically now you have changed your whole point of view and said that BENGALIS of BANGLADESH had no choice but to bend over & take whatever india wished to assert on them?

as for Mualana well he was used as a pawn by men like PATIL & NEHRU. & why should i look outside the subcontinent? this is the issue Indian leadership even then kept running to the british raj & playing into their hands and hence got a privelaged division of punjab & bengal! while Paksitani leadership of Jinnah stuck & refused to APPEASE the british hence was stuck with a hurried divison & left over bits.


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> so basically now you have changed your whole point of view and said that BENGALIS of BANGLADESH had no choice but to bend over & take whatever india wished to assert on them?



Glad you finally got it. Nothing I've said has changed. Just that you've finally got it. 



> as for Mualana well he was used as a pawn by men like PATIL & NEHRU. & why should i look outside the subcontinent? this is the issue Indian leadership even then kept running to the british raj & playing into their hands and hence got a privelaged division of punjab & bengal! while Paksitani leadership of Jinnah stuck & refused to APPEASE the british hence was stuck with a hurried divison & left over bits.



You got way more than you should have. Please be happy and work on what you have, instead of coveting what you never did. My point with regard to an unbiased audience was not so much as a referee but as an eyeopener for you. It would be naive to imagine that only you guys have it right, and the rest of the world have been somehow brainwashed by us.


----------



## rubyjackass

ice_man said:


> firstly what Quaid said is not derogatry it is how a CARING person speaks to a friend to try and discourage him from something that will eventually harm him! what Quaid was telling in plain words to MAULANA was DON'T play into the hands of the congressmen they will fool you & your followers. use you as a pawn! i sir don't see anything wrong in that FACT.
> 
> 
> *so atleast you admit that PATIL and raja "spoilt" the plan? that is exactly why the massacre happened because punjab & bangladesh* were split up & hence the blame of the mssacre lands right on the doorstep of patil! & this was followed up by NEHRU regarding the Junagadh & Kashmir disputes!



I can only laugh at your logic.

Especially you suggestion that the telegram is friendly. Azad was the president of INC at the time. Jinnah was literally maa-bhen-ing the organization and its President with whom he is supposed to negotiate. And look at his sly response. He, on the one hand, does not give a response to a formal wire and on the other hand attacks the guys willing to negotiate. By the way this was in 1941 before Quaid even had considerable support. And you call that message 'caring'!! How does it go if during Indo-Pakistan talks, our PM asks your President to immigrate to India and offers him citizenship?

I respect Quaid's steadfastness in the face of all odds. Just like I would admire a poker player who bluffs and wins. The end result is he played the game well. But it was not all a game in Jinnah's case. Partition was dirty business.

I give credit to your second point. It is subtler. But it is easy to drill holes into its logic. So if Jinnah asked for one more state because it has 51% muslims, Patel and co should give it up quietly?! You are talking like what Jinnah was expecting of Gandhi. Even Gandhi saw through it in the end. The massacre happened because there was 'partition' period. And Jinnah is the foremost of the people who gets the blame or credit depending on how you see it(I will admit that others are also responsible).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ice_man

rubyjackass said:


> I can only laugh at your logic.
> 
> Especially you suggestion that the telegram is friendly. Azad was the president of INC at the time. Jinnah was literally maa-bhen-ing the organization and its President with whom he is supposed to negotiate. And look at his sly response. He, on the one hand, does not give a response to a formal wire and on the other hand attacks the guys willing to negotiate. By the way this was in 1941 before Quaid even had considerable support. And you call that message 'caring'!! How does it go if during Indo-Pakistan talks, our PM asks your President to immigrate to India and offers him citizenship?
> 
> I respect Quaid's steadfastness in the face of all odds. Just like I would admire a poker player who bluffs and wins. The end result is he played the game well. But it was not all a game in Jinnah's case. Partition was dirty business.
> 
> I give credit to your second point. It is subtler. But it is easy to drill holes into its logic. So if Jinnah asked for one more state because it has 51% muslims, Patel and co should give it up quietly?! You are talking like what Jinnah was expecting of Gandhi. Even Gandhi saw through it in the end. The massacre happened because there was 'partition' period. And Jinnah is the foremost of the people who gets the blame or credit depending on how you see it(I will admit that others are also responsible).




you are just beating around the bush now aren't you? Partition was a VISIONARY decision by Jinnah and ofcourse like all visionaries he got alot of opposition from men who were being used as pawns! such as MUALANA! jinnah saw it in 1941 that mualana was made a "SHOW BOY" for a reason and that was to keep the muslims at bay! 

secondly IF patil & raja hadn't asked for a DIVISION of PUNJAB the massacre would have been avoided! clearly partition could have happened much more peacefully if the demand of breaking up to major provinces was avoided. 

as for BLUFF what did Jinnah bluff about? he initally supported congress in the 1920s only to see right through the pawns & puppets & motives of people like nehru & patil.


----------



## rubyjackass

Your biased opinions. You call one dream visionary and refuse to see the other side.

You are applying double standards here. Patel can not ask for division of Punjab and Bengal but Jinnah can ask for division of India?! Because it was his 'visionary decision'?! My visionary decision is to make a Hindu state out of India. Is that possible? Obviously the non-Hindus are going to ask for their pound of flesh. Their terms should also count and they will ask for division of India. Why should others respect my 'visionary decisions'? In any negotiation, to get something, you have to lose something. 

I did not say Jinnah bluffed. The tactic parallel to poker bluff which Jinnah used was saying no to anything that did not meet his full demands claiming a huge support which he did not have. In the end he had to take what he got because the British were threatening to leave anytime.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ice_man

rubyjackass said:


> Your biased opinions. You call one dream visionary and refuse to see the other side.
> 
> You are applying double standards here. Patel can not ask for division of Punjab and Bengal but Jinnah can ask for division of India?! Because it was his 'visionary decision'?! My visionary decision is to make a Hindu state out of India. Is that possible? Obviously the non-Hindus are going to ask for their pound of flesh. Their terms should also count and they will ask for division of India. Why should others respect my 'visionary decisions'? In any negotiation, to get something, you have to lose something.
> 
> I did not say Jinnah bluffed. The tactic parallel to poker bluff which Jinnah used was saying no to anything that did not meet his full demands claiming a huge support which he did not have. In the end he had to take what he got because the British were threatening to leave anytime.



You are correct that the indian hindus didn't feel he was visionary & hence put road blocks in his way & are responsible for the massacre that followed. 

Jinnah wanted an easy and relaxed partition however, with the threat of British walking out anytime & congressman annxeaing the whole of the subcontinent Jinnah gave in and took whatever land he was left. sadly if the british hadn't rushed & nehru & patil weren't in bed with the british the partition could have been easy and no ill feelings would have existed on either side.


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> sadly if the british hadn't rushed & nehru & patil weren't in bed with the british the partition could have been easy and no ill feelings would have existed on either side.



There would always have been hatred and bloodshed. Only the naive believe that a hunky dory separation could have been somehow possible.


----------



## Darth Vader

can some 1 close this thread how can u match 2 guys 1 was working for independent human beings and other was working fo r making them salves


----------



## AbhijitSingh

----self deleted-----


----------



## ice_man

AbhijitSingh said:


> Why do you think Jinnah worked to make human beings slaves??



guys please both of you don't troll! let this be a health discussion not a flame trolling nonsense!


----------



## angeldust

What do people here believe? 

Since Jinnah took it upon himself to be a spokesperson for all Indian Muslims, and proposed that Hindus and Muslims could not live together, and as such were two totally different people, the country got divided. Partition happened. About a milion people died violently. Yet it soon became clear that a large propostion of Muslims had put in their lot with India. Did that not defeat Jinnah right there? Was there therefore not just cause to revert the Partition then as an experiment gone horribly wrong? 

But the seed of hatred was sown and had taken root. Coming back together would mean far greater reprisals and bloodshed. And the Indian Muslims had to carry Pakistan around their necks like a millstone for deades thereafter. So please NEVER even in jest claim that the creation of Pakistan did some good for Indian Muslims. It was a communal legacy that we as a country took decades to erase. So if there is any feeling of vindication today, it is on our side to see you fighting and killing each other. Not the other way around.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> What do people here believe?
> 
> Since Jinnah took it upon himself to be a spokesperson for all Indian Muslims, and proposed that Hindus and Muslims could not live together, and as such were two totally different people, the country got divided. Partition happened. About a milion people died violently. Yet it soon became clear that a large propostion of Muslims had put in their lot with India. Did that not defeat Jinnah right there? Was there therefore not just cause to revert the Partition then as an experiment gone horribly wrong?
> 
> But the seed of hatred was sown and had taken root. Coming back together would mean far greater reprisals and bloodshed. And the Indian Muslims had to carry Pakistan around their necks like a millstone for deades thereafter. So please NEVER even in jest claim that the creation of Pakistan did some good for Indian Muslims. It was a communal legacy that we as a country took decades to erase. So if there is any feeling of vindication today, it is on our side to see you fighting and killing each other. Not the other way around.



that is an utter lie that you tell yourself every night inorder to be able to sleep peacefully. The people who were fooled by the congress and loyaly supported MUALANA regretted everything from 15th August 1947 onwards. Hyderabad muslims & Kashmiris are an example. 

Some saw the indian hindu orchestrated blood shed and just didn't have the courage to get up and go across the border. hence stayed. If the partition had happened peacefully i assure you alot more muslims would have got up and come. 

However, in 1971 when Bangladesh was formed it clearly showed that when a community learns to breath the fresh AIR of FREEDOM it never goes back to being instituitonalised and HENCE the BANGLADESHIS not even for a second considered to honour MUALANA or rejoin india! 

as for vindiction true the INDIAN MUSLIMS prays and hopes that Pakistan suffers hence the mistake of their FOREFATHERS doesn't seem so bad to them & doesn't hurt them like a thorn in their palms. 

& SADLY but surely the muslim killings of gujrat,kashmir & bombay have made JINNAH's stand seem more and more correct! IF it was US who you claim were the trouble makers in 40s then clearly KASHMIR,GUJRAT & BOMBAY were YOUR OWN DOING!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> that is an utter lie that you tell yourself every night inorder to be able to sleep peacefully. The people who were fooled by the congress and loyaly supported MUALANA regretted everything from 15th August 1947 onwards. Hyderabad muslims & Kashmiris are an example.
> 
> Some saw the indian hindu orchestrated blood shed and just didn't have the courage to get up and go across the border. hence stayed. If the partition had happened peacefully i assure you alot more muslims would have got up and come.
> 
> However, in 1971 when Bangladesh was formed it clearly showed that when a community learns to breath the fresh AIR of FREEDOM it never goes back to being instituitonalised and HENCE the BANGLADESHIS not even for a second considered to honour MUALANA or rejoin india!
> 
> as for vindiction true the INDIAN MUSLIMS prays and hopes that Pakistan suffers hence the mistake of their FOREFATHERS doesn't seem so bad to them & doesn't hurt them like a thorn in their palms.
> 
> & SADLY but surely the muslim killings of gujrat,kashmir & bombay have made JINNAH's stand seem more and more correct! IF it was US who you claim were the trouble makers in 40s then clearly KASHMIR,GUJRAT & BOMBAY were YOUR OWN DOING!



My brother, you guys wanted a land for yourselves. You got it. A nation for Muslims.

We had to overcome a legacy of that hatred, with 850 million Hindus living alngside 180 million Mulsims on the same land, same country.

You had all Muslims living happily together in the land you wanted and got.

So today 64 years later, what is your excuse?

Why are you still fighting and killing each other in the thousands in the name of religion?

You speak of Kashmir, Gujarat, and Mumbai. Both Hindus and Muslims died there. Today we have learned our lessons.

Yet our deaths pale in number and extent compared to what has been happening on your land. What then is the lesson history will teach future generations who look back at the happenings of this violent period?

What is your excuse bhai? 

We proved Azad right. All of us, Hindus, Muslims, and other Indians.

You proved Jinnah wrong. Just you Mulsims.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Rusty

angeldust said:


> What do people here believe?
> 
> Since Jinnah took it upon himself to be a spokesperson for all Indian Muslims, and proposed that Hindus and Muslims could not live together, and as such were two totally different people, the country got divided. Partition happened. About a milion people died violently. Yet it soon became clear that a large propostion of Muslims had put in their lot with India. Did that not defeat Jinnah right there? Was there therefore not just cause to revert the Partition then as an experiment gone horribly wrong?
> 
> 
> But the seed of hatred was sown and had taken root. Coming back together would mean far greater reprisals and bloodshed. And the Indian Muslims had to carry Pakistan around their necks like a millstone for deades thereafter. So please NEVER even in jest claim that the creation of Pakistan did some good for Indian Muslims. It was a communal legacy that we as a country took decades to erase. So if there is any feeling of vindication today, it is on our side to see you fighting and killing each other. Not the other way around.





It always amuses me how petty and small minded Indians are. 
You guys are wallowing in your own smugness because Pakistan is going through a bad time. That in itself is extremely petty. But what is hilarious is that India is no supa dupa pawa (don't listen to all the Indians who say India is). 
India has a massive problem with violence, communalism, racism and pretty much every other "ism" out there. 
You Think that Jinnah's vision has failed because Pakistan is having a few bad years?
Well then, by that same logic the Indian dream of a united country has failed too. 

The real question I want to ask tho is, why do Indians consider Pakistan to be part of India in the first place? 
The Republic of India never existed until 1947, so how can we separate from something that never existed?
Furthermore, why don't Indian get upset about Nepal and Srilanka?
Both those countries were also administered under the British Raj. Why don't Indians say that Both those countries belong to India?


----------



## ziaulislam

simple,
kalam was a part of part which contained legends and geniuses 
while
Jinnah was a one man show..
he alone was more capable then all of congress party men put together


----------



## Rusty

angeldust said:


> My brother, you guys wanted a land for yourselves. You got it. A nation for Muslims.
> 
> We had to overcome a legacy of that hatred, with 850 million Hindus living alngside 180 million Mulsims on the same land, same country.
> 
> You had all Muslims living happily together in the land you wanted and got.
> 
> So today 64 years later, what is your excuse?
> 
> Why are you still fighting and killing each other in the thousands in the name of religion?
> 
> You speak of Kashmir, Gujarat, and Mumbai. Both Hindus and Muslims died there. Today we have learned our lessons.
> 
> Yet our deaths pale in number and extent compared to what has been happening on your land. What then is the lesson history will teach future generations who look back at the happenings of this violent period?
> 
> What is your excuse bhai?
> 
> We proved Azad right. All of us, Hindus, Muslims, and other Indians.
> 
> You proved Jinnah wrong. Just you Mulsims.



Our excuse is that we live on a planet called earth and not Lala land like most you Indians. 

1. Have you really overcome this legacy? Can a Muslim easily rent any apartment in Mumbai? 
Jinnah saw this eventuality and he didn't want Muslims to suffer the humiliation of not being able to rent an apartment in Karach or Lahore. 

2. Excuse for what? With the exception of the area that border Afghanistan, Pakistan is only showing problems of developing countries (ie the same problems you have)

3. Killing each other in the thousands for religion?
This just proves that you are living in lalaland and not reality. 
For the sake of argument I will assume you are back on earth, Pakistan is currently in the middle of a war. War means that bad things happens, unfortunately for Pakistan we got stuck in a war we had nothing to do with and we are paying the price. Once thiswar is over, things will return to normal. 

4. Really? you learned your lesson? just a little while ago there were articles about Hindu extremists attacking churches and forcing converts to come back to Hinduism. 

5. Again, see WoT. 

6 and good one, Muslims in India have to curse at their Brothers in Pakistan just to stay alive. I am sure Azad is proud of this .


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> My brother, you guys wanted a land for yourselves. You got it. A nation for Muslims.
> 
> We had to overcome a legacy of that hatred, with 850 million Hindus living alngside 180 million Mulsims on the same land, same country.
> 
> You had all Muslims living happily together in the land you wanted and got.
> 
> So today 64 years later, what is your excuse?
> 
> Why are you still fighting and killing each other in the thousands in the name of religion?
> 
> You speak of Kashmir, Gujarat, and Mumbai. Both Hindus and Muslims died there. Today we have learned our lessons.
> 
> Yet our deaths pale in number and extent compared to what has been happening on your land. What then is the lesson history will teach future generations who look back at the happenings of this violent period?
> 
> What is your excuse bhai?
> 
> We proved Azad right. All of us, Hindus, Muslims, and other Indians.
> 
> You proved Jinnah wrong. Just you Mulsims.



you fail to understand WE wanted a land for ourselves to DO WHATEVER WE WILLED! your stance was that MUSLIMS & Hindus could coexist without any issue or religious backed killings. 


however, 50 years on from independence bombay, gujrat & kashmir killings continue. don't see what we did with our land our DEMAND was WE want a land for ourselves to practise OUR FREE WILL.

HINDUS DIVIDED the muslims for their own security! Jinnah saw through the plan Mualana failed to do so. Rest is history!


----------



## matrix_neo

KS said:


> Dude: not going into the creation of Pakistan, of which I am a big supporter, Jinnah would be spinning at 10000 RPM in his grave if he were to see Pakistan today and how the Muslims are killing Muslims at a much much bigger rate than Hindus are killing Muslims in India.
> 
> So let's go easy. There is no need to criticize one to praise other.


 
10000 RPM!!! really???


----------



## Rusty

matrix_neo said:


> 10000 RPM!!! really???



And I am sure Ghandi would be perfectly happy with India as it is right now. 
Ghandi used to look down on the black South Africans, he thought he was better then them. 
But now India has more poor then the whole continent combined 
Just imagine how proud he would be right now 

As For Jinnah, he would be proud that he build such a strong country that despite a war and complete failure in leadership, His nation is still able to maintain a positive growth rate. His Nation is a nuclear power. And his nation has tremendous potential still.


----------



## AbhijitSingh

angeldust said:


> My brother, you guys wanted a land for yourselves. You got it. A nation for Muslims.
> 
> We had to overcome a legacy of that hatred, with 850 million Hindus living alngside 180 million Mulsims on the same land, same country.
> 
> You had all Muslims living happily together in the land you wanted and got.
> 
> So today 64 years later, what is your excuse?
> 
> Why are you still fighting and killing each other in the thousands in the name of religion?
> 
> You speak of Kashmir, Gujarat, and Mumbai. Both Hindus and Muslims died there. Today we have learned our lessons.
> 
> Yet our deaths pale in number and extent compared to what has been happening on your land. What then is the lesson history will teach future generations who look back at the happenings of this violent period?
> 
> What is your excuse bhai?
> 
> We proved Azad right. All of us, Hindus, Muslims, and other Indians.
> 
> You proved Jinnah wrong. Just you Mulsims.



The most precise and accurate debunk of the 2 nation theory I have seen till date ... :salute:

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## EjazR

ice_man said:


> however, 50 years on from independence bombay, gujrat & kashmir killings continue. don't see what we did with our land our DEMAND was WE want a land for ourselves to practise OUR FREE WILL.
> 
> HINDUS DIVIDED the muslims for their own security! Jinnah saw through the plan Mualana failed to do so. Rest is history!



Ah, so now in jumping up and down in your contradictory stances you have implicated Jinnah for following what the "Hindus" wanted. So Jinnah HELPED the "Hindus" divide the Muslims.

Thanks for pointing out the facts that Jinnah followed what Hindus wanted and Maulana Azad was opposed to it 

And yes it doesn't matter what you did with your land. It doesn't matter that more Muslims have been slaugtered in Pakistan/Bangladesh than India in the last 60+ years. 
*roll eyes*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ice_man

EjazR said:


> Ah, so now in jumping up and down in your contradictory stances you have implicated Jinnah for following what the "Hindus" wanted. So Jinnah HELPED the "Hindus" divide the Muslims.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out the facts that Jinnah followed what Hindus wanted and Maulana Azad was opposed to it
> 
> And yes it doesn't matter what you did with your land. It doesn't matter that more Muslims have been slaugtered in Pakistan/Bangladesh than India in the last 60+ years.
> *roll eyes*



you clearly don't read do you? MUSLIMS wished to PARTITION! MUALANA played into the hands of congress people like NEHRU & PATEL! both of whom didnot want muslims to seperate. 

if you go a few posts back your friends clearly admitted that NEHRU & PATEL last minute asked for division of punjab & Bengal & started the massacre. this lead to alot of MUSLIMS staying back (no one wants their wives,daughters raped & killed).


----------



## imran_ind

Rusty said:


> Our excuse is that we live on a planet called earth and not Lala land like most you Indians. 1. Have you really overcome this legacy? Can a Muslim easily rent any apartment in Mumbai? .



Have you ever been to India in your life time bombay for specifc or are u still in your wet dreams fantasizing .... 

Mumbai is not a village its twice bigger and more developed then karachi , and for you INFO my dad's family lives in bombay too and muslims makes 19% of the total bombay population comprising of 12 million .

Jinnah saw this eventuality and he didn't want Muslims to suffer the humiliation of not being able to rent an apartment in Karach or Lahore. 

2. Excuse for what? With the exception of the area that border Afghanistan, Pakistan is only showing problems of developing countries (ie the same problems you have)

3. Killing each other in the thousands for religion?
This just proves that you are living in lalaland and not reality. 
For the sake of argument I will assume you are back on earth, Pakistan is currently in the middle of a war. War means that bad things happens, unfortunately for Pakistan we got stuck in a war we had nothing to do with and we are paying the price. Once thiswar is over, things will return to normal. 

4. Really? you learned your lesson? just a little while ago there were articles about Hindu extremists attacking churches and forcing converts to come back to Hinduism. 

5. Again, see WoT. 

6 and good one, Muslims in India have to curse at their Brothers in Pakistan just to stay alive. I am sure Azad is proud of this .[/QUOTE]



imran_ind said:


> Have you ever been to India in your life time bombay for specifc or are u still in your wet dreams fantasizing ....
> 
> Mumbai is not a village its twice bigger and more developed then karachi , and for you INFO my dad's family lives in bombay too and muslims makes 19% of the total bombay population comprising of 12 million .
> 
> Jinnah saw this eventuality and he didn't want Muslims to suffer the humiliation of not being able to rent an apartment in Karach or Lahore.
> 
> 2. Excuse for what? With the exception of the area that border Afghanistan, Pakistan is only showing problems of developing countries (ie the same problems you have)
> 
> 3. Killing each other in the thousands for religion?
> This just proves that you are living in lalaland and not reality.
> For the sake of argument I will assume you are back on earth, Pakistan is currently in the middle of a war. War means that bad things happens, unfortunately for Pakistan we got stuck in a war we had nothing to do with and we are paying the price. Once thiswar is over, things will return to normal.
> 
> 4. Really? you learned your lesson? just a little while ago there were articles about Hindu extremists attacking churches and forcing converts to come back to Hinduism.
> 
> 5. Again, see WoT.
> 
> 6 and good one, Muslims in India have to curse at their Brothers in Pakistan just to stay alive. I am sure Azad is proud of this .


[/QUOTE]


Have you ever been to India in your life time bombay for specifc or are u still in your wet dreams fantasizing .... 

Mumbai is not a village its twice bigger and more developed then karachi , and for you INFO my dad's family lives in bombay too and muslims makes 19% of the total bombay population comprising of 12 million .



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...76-jinnah-vs-kalam-azad-44.html#ixzz1xfi0mggW


----------



## Contrarian

angeldust said:


> My brother, you guys wanted a land for yourselves. You got it. A nation for Muslims.
> 
> We had to overcome a legacy of that hatred, with 850 million Hindus living alngside 180 million Mulsims on the same land, same country.
> 
> You had all Muslims living happily together in the land you wanted and got.
> 
> So today 64 years later, what is your excuse?
> 
> Why are you still fighting and killing each other in the thousands in the name of religion?
> 
> You speak of Kashmir, Gujarat, and Mumbai. Both Hindus and Muslims died there. Today we have learned our lessons.
> 
> Yet our deaths pale in number and extent compared to what has been happening on your land. What then is the lesson history will teach future generations who look back at the happenings of this violent period?
> 
> What is your excuse bhai?
> 
> We proved Azad right. All of us, Hindus, Muslims, and other Indians.
> 
> You proved Jinnah wrong. Just you Mulsims.


What a post angel dust! Amazing..!

The only reply i see Pakistanis coming up with are the gujarat riots..that happened a decade back!!
And the reason why Pakistan is successful is because Pakistan exists and has potential and nuclear weapons!! LOL!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ice_man

^^^ what is this guy trying to say??/ i am totally lost! but anyways good for him


----------



## rubyjackass

ice_man said:


> You are correct that the indian hindus didn't feel he was visionary & hence put road blocks in his way & are responsible for the massacre that followed.
> 
> Jinnah wanted an easy and relaxed partition however, with the threat of British walking out anytime & congressman annxeaing the whole of the subcontinent Jinnah gave in and took whatever land he was left. sadly if the british hadn't rushed & nehru & patil weren't in bed with the british the partition could have been easy and no ill feelings would have existed on either side.


Don't you understand?! Yes, many Indians(should I say British-Indians?) did not take Jinnah to be a visionary, including Muslims who ended up on both sides of border(Azad and Frontier Gandhi are two). If there was no partition in the first place, why would there be any bloodshed? As I said earlier, Jinnah was asking for too much with too less leverage. He did not like muslims to live under a Hindu majority but expected Sindhi and Punjabi non-muslims to live under a muslim majority. You don't need to be a genius to smell hypocrisy in it. Obviously the non-muslims were going to ask out of Pakistan and Congress would support them. He was basically forcing partition and expecting others to not take any political counter-measures. How wise is this? 

And you complain that Nehru and Patel were in bed with British?! This is outrageous! Jinnah wouldn't have earned a cent of land if the British did not favor him. He was their trump in countering Congress, especially during 'Quit India' when the whole country was protesting against British rule. Jinnah gladly let them use him as long as they gave him a seat at the table. I do not think this is immoral or anything, it was after all his strategy. But you are acting like you know nothing about your Quaid. That is unfair to him and his efforts. You have to own whatever he did to achieve Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Slayer786

rubyjackass said:


> Don't you understand?! Yes, many Indians(should I say British-Indians?) did not take Jinnah to be a visionary, including Muslims who ended up on both sides of border(Azad and Frontier Gandhi are two). If there was no partition in the first place, why would there be any bloodshed? As I said earlier, Jinnah was asking for too much with too less leverage. He did not like muslims to live under a Hindu majority but expected Sindhi and Punjabi non-muslims to live under a muslim majority. You don't need to be a genius to smell hypocrisy in it. Obviously the non-muslims were going to ask out of Pakistan and Congress would support them. He was basically forcing partition and expecting others to not take any political counter-measures. How wise is this?
> 
> And you complain that Nehru and Patel were in bed with British?! This is outrageous! Jinnah wouldn't have earned a cent of land if the British did not favor him. He was their trump in countering Congress, especially during 'Quit India' when the whole country was protesting against British rule. Jinnah gladly let them use him as long as they gave him a seat at the table. I do not think this is immoral or anything, it was after all his strategy. But you are acting like you know nothing about your Quaid. That is unfair to him and his efforts. You have to own whatever he did to achieve Pakistan.


 
Nehru was having an affair with Mountbatten's wife, and Mountbatten knew and didnt mind(sick fellow). He was expecting favours in return ad gave Nehru what he wanted. 
Now we can argue our points till the cows come home, but no one will agreeon each other's points.
Suffice to say that we in Pakistan are glad that partiton took place and we are not ruled by Hindus. You indus shouldbe happy that tere are very few muslims left otherwise we would have been a thorn in your side always.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldust

Slayer786 said:


> Suffice to say that we in Pakistan are glad that partiton took place and we are not ruled by Hindus.



Glad you may or may not be (what else are you going to say otherwise on a forum with Indians looking on?), but that stil does not make Jinnah right or Azad wrong.

Take the "Pakistan a nation?" thread as well as so many other Afghan, Pashtun, Baloch forums as an example. And look at Indians here and elsewhere. 

You are not united in spite of sharing the same faith. We are very united despite belonging to different faiths.

We both fight internally. No one is saying that everything is rosy and cozy.

But when we fight, we fight always as Indians first above all other internal divisions. That remains sacrosant and inviolable. 

When you fight, you fight as Shias and Sunnis, Sunnis and Shias and Hazaras and Ahmediyas, Punjabi and Sindhi and Baloch and Pashtun and Mohajir.

"Pakistan" as an entity comes out and to the fore only when India comes in.

Little wonder that India leaves you to yourself.

Deny the enemy the only glue that binds it together.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> Glad you may or may not be (what else are you going to say otherwise on a forum with Indians looking on?), but that stil does not make Jinnah right or Azad wrong.
> 
> Take the "Pakistan a nation?" thread as well as so many other Afghan, Pashtun, Baloch forums as an example. And look at Indians here and elsewhere.
> 
> You are not united in spite of sharing the same faith. We are very united despite belonging to different faiths.
> 
> We both fight internally. No one is saying that everything is rosy and cozy.
> 
> But when we fight, we fight always as Indians first above all other internal divisions. That remains sacrosant and inviolable.
> 
> When you fight, you fight as Shias and Sunnis, Sunnis and Shias and Hazaras and Ahmediyas, Punjabi and Sindhi and Baloch and Pashtun and Mohajir.
> 
> "Pakistan" as an entity comes out and to the fore only when India comes in.
> 
> Little wonder that India leaves you to yourself.
> 
> Deny the enemy the only glue that binds it together.




beautiful UTOPIA that you are portraying! but please spare me the bull! you mean to say that Telengana is not an issue? you means Mahrastrans don't feel sidelined? 

you are saying all of NORTH EASTERN INDIA is not grieving? & you also really truly believe that south indians and north indians are united??? hell make a Calcutta person sit with a Mumbai person and we shall see! or better make a sardar sit with a Bengali & tell me they are united 


& Mualana was the one fooled & believed like you that a utopia was possible but sadly that was not true. Jinnah had told him in the telegram that for god sake stop being a show boy to these congressmen & british but oh well Mualana was blinded and rest is history!


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> beautiful UTOPIA that you are portraying! but please spare me the bull! you mean to say that Telengana is not an issue? you means Mahrastrans don't feel sidelined?
> 
> you are saying all of NORTH EASTERN INDIA is not grieving? & you also really truly believe that south indians and north indians are united??? hell make a Calcutta person sit with a Mumbai person and we shall see! or better make a sardar sit with a Bengali & tell me they are united
> 
> 
> & Mualana was the one fooled & believed like you that a utopia was possible but sadly that was not true. Jinnah had told him in the telegram that for god sake stop being a show boy to these congressmen & british but oh well Mualana was blinded and rest is history!



We fight internally. But as Indians first and foremost.

You fight internally too. But you need India to make you feel Pakistani.

So its not Islam that binds you as one. Its actually Hinduism.

Islam in fact divides you - as Sunni and Shia and Ahmediya.

Strange paradox which Jinnah and Azad would no doubt be mulling up there over a cup of coffee - or a peg (whichever the case may be).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> We fight internally. But as Indians first and foremost.
> 
> You fight internally too. But you need India to make you feel Pakistani.
> 
> So its not Islam that binds you as one. Its actually Hinduism.
> 
> Islam in fact divides you - as Sunni and Shia and Ahmediya.
> 
> Strange paradox which Jinnah and Azad would no doubt be mulling up there over a cup of coffee - or a peg (whichever the case may be).



lslam divides us? really? why do you comment on things you don't know! it makes u look like a kid! 

& caste system is what in hinduism? Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras. are what????

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> lslam divides us? really? why do you comment on things you don't know! it makes u look like a kid!
> 
> & caste system is what in hinduism? Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras. are what????



I'm old enough to vote and procreate man.

Are you telling me that the large scale killing of Shias and Ahmediyas in your country is not an internal conflict of Islam?

The genocide of the Hazaras?

Not to mention too many others I have heard of here though frankly do not understand beyong the fact that they are Muslims killing Muslims. Deobandi, Wahabi, Barelvi, etc.?

Does your North-west even consider itself to be Pakistan? Does Balochistan? That is half your country man. What are you left with - Punjab and Sindh?

Then you have the Mohajirs. "True" Pakistanis accusing them of being Indian. Muslims both of course. Brothers and one people per Jinnah.

Lets forget about your other long lost Bengali "brothers".

What wholescale killings barring sporadic incidents do you see based on caste in India? When was the last incident you heard of with victims more than 10?

How many thousand Pakistanis dead in the past 5 years? 30,000? 50,000? 

Were they all killed by Hindus?


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> I'm old enough to vote and procreate man.
> 
> Are you telling me that the large scale killing of Shias and Ahmediyas in your country is not an internal conflict of Islam?
> 
> The genocide of the Hazaras?
> 
> Not to mention too many others I have heard of here though frankly do not understand beyong the fact that they are Muslims killing Muslims. Deobandi, Wahabi, Barelvi, etc.?
> 
> Does your North-west even consider itself to be Pakistan? Does Balochistan? That is half your country man. What are you left with - Punjab and Sindh?
> 
> Then you have the Mohajirs. "True" Pakistanis accusing them of being Indian. Muslims both of course. Brothers and one people per Jinnah.
> 
> Lets forget about your other long lost Bengali "brothers".
> 
> What wholescale killings barring sporadic incidents do you see based on caste in India? When was the last incident you heard of with victims more than 10?
> 
> How many thousand Pakistanis dead in the past 5 years? 30,000? 50,000?
> 
> Were they all killed by Hindus?



now that you have lost you wish to troll eh? 

you raised a point & i countered it. now what is your issue islam? if your issue is islam then start a thread on it! besides in india the hindus of lower caste have become so instituionalized that they don't fight back and take it lying down! 

in the urban areas like any country people are after money & not castes. 

as for killings in Pakistan well they never existed till after war on terror. even now it is run by TERRORISTS! hence it cannot be classified as anything else.

However 2008 killings of CHRISTIANS in ORISSA or the gujrat massacre or the NON STOP KILLINGS IN KASHMIR & the killing of sikhs in golden temple clearly are classified as HINDU KILLING ACTS!

now tell me what is your point? why are you going around in circles?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Contrarian

Lol..the last major riot in India was a decade back! 
And you quote that as an argument! You must be sad to know then that Indians are evolving as with each passing year caste or religious violence is declining.
That had to be evident since you are compelled to use a decade old example!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## somebozo

malaymishra123 said:


> Lol..the last major riot in India was a decade back!
> And you quote that as an argument! You must be sad to know then that Indians are evolving as with each passing year caste or religious violence is declining.
> That had to be evident since you are compelled to use a decade old example!


 
2008 is not a decade old!


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> now that you have lost you wish to troll eh?
> 
> you raised a point & i countered it. now what is your issue islam? if your issue is islam then start a thread on it! besides in india the hindus of lower caste have become so instituionalized that they don't fight back and take it lying down!
> 
> in the urban areas like any country people are after money & not castes.
> 
> as for killings in Pakistan well they never existed till after war on terror. even now it is run by TERRORISTS! hence it cannot be classified as anything else.
> 
> However 2008 killings of CHRISTIANS in ORISSA or the gujrat massacre or the NON STOP KILLINGS IN KASHMIR & the killing of sikhs in golden temple clearly are classified as HINDU KILLING ACTS!
> 
> now tell me what is your point? why are you going around in circles?



I am neither trolling nor do I want to fight with you about history man.

Point is, what did Jinnah achieve for the Muslims of undivided India?

Divided between three warring countries.

The Hindus on the other hand kept the one nation they always had. And they were and remain undivided.

Mull on that.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LaBong

ice_man said:


> you are saying all of NORTH EASTERN INDIA is not grieving? & you also really truly believe that south indians and north indians are united??? hell make a Calcutta person sit with a Mumbai person and we shall see! or better make a sardar sit with a Bengali & tell me they are united



What will happen if a Calcutta person like me and Mumbai person like Fateh meet? We probably have few beers and do chit chat and go home. There are plenty of Sikhs in Calcutta, ask Mirza Jatt. One of my best friend have been a Sardarni whose ancestral land is Laylapur. 

Not sure where do you Pakistanis get these ideas.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

angeldust said:


> I am neither trolling nor do I want to fight with you about history man.
> 
> *Point is, what did Jinnah achieve for the Muslims of undivided India?*
> 
> Divided between three warring countries.
> 
> The Hindus on the other hand kept the one nation they always had. And they were and remain undivided.
> 
> Mull on that.



He overplayed his hand.

And got what he didn't really want.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldust

Vinod2070 said:


> He overplayed his hand.
> 
> And got what he didn't really want.



No one man is ever important.

Point is, the Muslims as a whole got what they did not need.

What we hear today from the Pakistanis is the dejected defiance that comes from the pain of realization.


----------



## Vinod2070

angeldust said:


> No one man is ever important.
> 
> Point is, the Muslims as a whole got what they did not need.
> 
> What we hear today from the Pakistanis is the dejected defiance that comes from the pain of realization.



Well that is correct.

But it doesn't matter now. We are better off without them and that is what matters.


----------



## Bhairava

ice_man said:


> beautiful UTOPIA that you are portraying! but please spare me the bull! you mean to say that Telengana is not an issue? you means Mahrastrans don't feel sidelined?



Dafuq ?

WHy would the most developed state in India feel sidelined and why would Telengana issue matter to you Pakistani..? Telengana issue is like Seraiki issue. Go figure !!




ice_man said:


> you are saying all of NORTH EASTERN INDIA is not grieving? & you also really truly believe that south indians and north indians are united??? hell make a Calcutta person sit with a Mumbai person and we shall see! or better make a sardar sit with a Bengali & tell me they are united



Pakistanis and their delusions about inter-state relations in India..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldust

Bhairava said:


> Pakistanis and their delusions about inter-state relations in India..



Seriously man.


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> No one man is ever important.
> 
> Point is, the Muslims as a whole got what they did not need.
> 
> What we hear today from the Pakistanis is the dejected defiance that comes from the pain of realization.




LOL and THIS IS WHAT YOUR OPINON? clearly the kashmiris are still fighting to move away from indian control that clearly shows that they are not instituinalized like the rest of the indian muslims have become!

indians try & try always to believe that one day Pakistanis might say Jinnah was wrong. 

but let me tell you something ask any Pakistani whose parents migrated from india they would die rather than ever consider it to be a mistake.

Jinnah got us the freedom to make our own decisions & make our own choices! and freedom is something that you don't understand until you experience it!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bhairava

angeldust said:


> .
> 
> Point is, the Muslims as a whole got what they did not need.





Vinod2070 said:


> And got what he didn't really want.


 

It would not be far from truth to say Jinnah got the Hindus what they really wanted !!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> LOL and THIS IS WHAT YOUR OPINON? clearly the kashmiris are still fighting to move away from indian control that clearly shows that they are not instituinalized like the rest of the indian muslims have become!



Yes its my opinion. What Kashmiri fight are you on about man? Last I heard tourism was flourishing again, with Kashmiri youth becoming doctors, engineers, lawyers, and topping the IAS. Led by their own elected representatives like any other Indian state. Just because they like letting off steam like the young anywhere else, does not mean they want to leave their motherland. A few sticks, a few stones, a few busted skulls, shins and kneecaps, and there is love in the air once again.


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> Yes its my opinion. What Kashmiri fight are you on about man? Last I heard tourism was flourishing again, with Kashmiri youth becoming doctors, engineers, lawyers, and topping the IAS. Led by their own elected representatives like any other Indian state. Just because they like letting off steam like the young anywhere else, does not mean they want to leave their motherland. A few sticks, a few stones, a few busted skulls, shins and kneecaps, and there is love in the air once again.



hahahaha love your ignorance! 

DIVIDE INDIA (100 PERCENT TRUE SHOWING WITH WESTERN EYES).SHOULDONE DAY KASHMIR AND KHALISTAN WILL GET FREEDOM . HELP FOR KASHMIR AND KHALISTAN - YouTube
Azadi Lovers In Kashmir - YouTube


forget it no point arguing with ignorant people. 

i feel sorry for the mualana and what he was made to believe!



Bhairava said:


> It would not be far from truth to say Jinnah got the Hindus what they really wanted !!



true no doubt hindus wanted to exterminate muslims. now you have less to imprison & control

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldust

ice_man said:


> i feel sorry for the mualana and what he was made to believe!



We feel sorry for you and what your grandfathers and great-grandfathers were made to believe.

Don't feel sorry for the dead. They are in a better place. Feel sorry instead for those still living who reap today what they sowed yesterday.


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> We feel sorry for you and what your grandfathers and great-grandfathers were made to believe.
> 
> Don't feel sorry for the dead. They are in a better place. Feel sorry instead for those still living who reap today what they sowed yesterday.



lol ok have fun with your utopian beliefs!


----------



## ice_man

angeldust said:


> I'm not done.
> 
> We feel sorry for our Muslims who had to live with the baggage of Pakistan.
> 
> We feel sorry for our Hindus who had to live with the baggage of Pakistan.
> 
> We feel sorry for our other minorities who got caught in the middle in spite of having nothing to do with the mess.
> 
> We feel sorry for your minorities who got suckered into believeing Jinnah's words of secularity and stayed behind.



LOL are you done now??? and do you want the "muslims you feel sorry for" back? 

if you feel sorry welcome them back lol! crocodile tears are not good enough!


----------



## niaz

I have refrained from posting in this thread because I have great respect for both these political giants of the Independence movement.

Maulana Azad as he was popularly known was an outstanding scholar of Sunni Islam and really should have been a mullah. He was extremely intelligent and was one the few scholars who agreed with Sir Syed about the need for modern education of the Muslims. Maulana Azad was one of the founding members of Jamie Milli Islamia where, in addition to the Hadith and Islamic Jurisprudence, all the modern subjects were taught. Some of the lecturers were even non-Muslims such as Pundit Jwala Prasad (Hindu Ethics) LN Gupta (Chemistry), DN Mukherjee (Mathematics), Aggarwal, (Commerce). BTW Hakim Ajmal Khan was the first Chancellor of Jamia Milli Delhi.

This clearly indicates that the Maulana was a forward looking man and unlike other mullahs, his learning of Islamic subjects did not make him a narrow-minded bigot. A quality I admire immensely. 
IMHO Jamia Milli is the kind of educational institution that is the need for Muslims, not the madarssahs that have mushroomed all over Pakistan. Many of his predictions about Pakistan have been proven correct and he stands far above most of the Muslim politician of the time. 

Maulana Azad was however for united India and he vehemently opposed partition of Bengal. Maulana Azad was a close friend and an ardent admirer of Mahatma Gandhi. The only thing I have against the Maulana is that because of him, parts of Bengal were lost to Pakistan. But there is no denying the stature and calibre of the man. As an educationalist alone, Maulana deserves great respect.

Quaid also possessed a razor sharp intellect and was honest to a fault. Quaid had a brilliant legal mind and a single mindedness of purpose. Judging the personal character from the Islamic point of view such as offering prayers and observing the fast during Ramadan, Mualana Azad would be ahead of the Quaid. 

From my personal viewpoint, I place the Quaid above the Maulana for the simple reason that without the Quaid, there would have been no Pakistan and with all things said and done, I am a Pakistani. 

I repeat that unlike Maulana Madani of Deoband, who in my view was just a bigoted Congressi mullah, in my personal opinion Maulana Azad was a giant among men.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Armstrong

I won't go into a Jinnah vs Abul Kalam thing because it was natural that good, decent people could have a difference of opinion ! But I do concede that perhaps Jinnah erred in thinking that 'Us - the Muslims' were worth it; he gave up his life, his marriage, his health, his wealth and his only child to fight for a Pakistan that eludes us till date ! He and Iqbal probably thought far too highly of us....far far more than what we deserved !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RazPaK

Armstrong said:


> I won't go into a Jinnah vs Abul Kalam thing because it was natural that good, decent people could have a difference of opinion ! But I do concede that perhaps Jinnah erred in thinking that 'Us - the Muslims' were worth it; he gave up his life, his marriage, his health, his wealth and his only child to fight for a Pakistan that eludes us till date ! He and Iqbal probably thought far too highly of us....far far more than what we deserved !



Self-defeating attitude does not help here.

The change is slowly creeping on us, Inshallah.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Armstrong

RazPaK said:


> Self-defeating attitude does not help here.
> 
> The change is slowly creeping on us, Inshallah.



We've been hearing about 'a new dawn' every few years since '47 and yet Pakistan has been going from one sh*tty situation to another ! Don't get me wrong...I agree wholeheartedly with Jinnah as to why Pakistan was needed and I do agree that any other solution would have brought us to tremendous ruin but Pakistan was never just about 'saving our skins' it was about 'saving and nurturing the Islamic ideology'...the same ideology that we've reduced to sectarianism and bigotry !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RazPaK

Armstrong said:


> We've been hearing about 'a new dawn' every few years since '47 and yet Pakistan has been going from one sh*tty situation to another ! Don't get me wrong...I agree wholeheartedly with Jinnah as to why Pakistan was needed and I do agree that any other solution would have brought us to tremendous ruin but Pakistan was never just about 'saving our skins' it was about 'saving and nurturing the Islamic ideology'...the same ideology that we've reduced to sectarianism and bigotry !



When your enemies know your weakness, they will continue exploiting them.

The change must come from within.

So far any changes that Pakistan has been through have only been cosmetic at best.

Our society is what truly needs to evolve.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

RazPaK said:


> When your enemies know your weakness, they will continue exploiting them.
> 
> The change must come from within.
> 
> So far any changes that Pakistan has been through have only been cosmetic at best.
> 
> Our society is what truly needs to evolve.



Bhai tou rehn dei ! Tou too kakaae ko Ak-47 seh khilaaa taaa hai...keireee society de evolution ?


----------



## Bhairava

ice_man said:


> true no doubt hindus wanted to exterminate muslims. now you have less to imprison & control


 
Whatever man....the end result - muslims divided into three warring nations and Hindus in one single nation and this all because a Muslim overplayed his hand.

Dont blame the Hindus !

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Greywolf

*COMMENT: Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and his legacy  Yasser Latif Hamdani*
Azads role for two decades after partition was one of the token Congress Muslim show boy as Jinnah famously called him

As Pakistan continues to dangle on the brink of failure and India thrives, there are many who have begun to ask whether Maulana Azad, the great Indian leader and Islamic scholar, was right and Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah was wrong in those final days of the British Raj. Both Azad and Jinnah were extremely intelligent leaders and were contenders for the leadership of Muslims. The westernised Jinnah managed to win the support of the Muslim masses while the religious scholar, Maulana Azad, was sidelined.

In his autobiography, Azad made a prescient observation about Pakistan breaking into two, which came true of course. There are however, a number of predictions, all seemingly accurate, which are associated with Azad that seem to reinforce further his image as the sage of the age. He is said, amongst other things, to have predicted Pakistans dependence on western powers and growing discord between the religious right and liberals in Pakistan in an interview conducted in April 1946. The only problem is that the latter list of predictions has been transmitted to us through a dubious source. This source was Agha Shorish Kashmiri, a committed Ahrari leader who opposed the creation of Pakistan (and ironically, played an important role in fomenting sectarian trouble against Ahmadis and Shias in Pakistan). No one other than Kashmiri seems to have seen a record of this interview and there is no primary source to confirm this interview. The said interview does not appear in any of Azads papers or in any record of his life as preserved in India. In the view of this writer therefore, that interview was a concoction and a distortion invented by Agha Shorish Kashmiri in the 1970s when he wrote an Urdu biography of Azad. TV shows like Khabarnaak have recently referenced these predictions and the myth therefore, is now fully under way as being accepted as the gospel truth.

What is equally bothersome about this attempt to re-invent Azad as a latter day Nostradamus, staring into his crystal bowl and predicting the future is that it completely disregards his own role in the first five decades of the 20th century. The Khilafat Movement brought Azad, who was a well-respected Islamic scholar in Sunni circles, into prominence, where he used fiery Islamic rhetoric to galvanise the religious Muslim masses behind the movement to save the Caliphate in Turkey. Mahatma Gandhi and other Hindu leaders who, naively, assumed that deploying the abrasive theocratic logic of the Caliphate could somehow paradoxically bring Hindus and Muslims together on one platform, supported this movement. Azad repeatedly denounced the Aligarh school and chastised Muslims for following the timid and pro-western ways of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, when Islam was a complete code of life. He also gave the famous fatwa for Hijrat, which declared that India under British rule was Dar-ul-Harb and that it was the religious duty of every Muslim to either resist the government or migrate to Afghanistan. It is noteworthy that Jinnah repeatedly warned Gandhi to stay away from this pseudo-religious approach, which would ultimately divide Hindus and Muslims as well as Muslims and Muslims. The consequences of the Khilafat Movement and the rhetoric of Azad and Maulana Mohammad Ali were that Muslim professionals left government service and other material benefits of the British rule and were led onto a path of self-destruction. Gandhi, Azad and other leaders of this movement went on to ask even Aligarh University to refuse British patronage (while paradoxically failing to ask the same of Benaras Hindu University). Since the entire movement was built on a theological foundation, i.e. Pan-Islamism, it was bound to turn on itself. The Moplah Muslim uprising in the south completely shattered the façade of Hindu-Muslim unity created by the movement. In retaliation, Hindus started the Shuddhi (which was aimed at re-converting Muslims to Hinduism) and Sanghtan (organising and arming Hindus). In reaction to the Shuddhi and Sanghtan movements, Muslims came up with the Tabligh (propagation of faith) and Tanzeem (organisation) movements. This militant and hostile communal atmosphere laid the foundation for open communal warfare, leading to mass rioting and violence. The Khilafat Movement, which had temporarily united Hindus and Muslims for an illogical cause, rendered religious identities non-negotiable. That Jinnah had predicted this in his letters to Gandhi is a matter of record. Azads role for two decades after partition was one of the token Congress Muslim show boy as Jinnah famously called him. In his book, India Wins Freedom, Azad blames Jawaharlal Nehru for not coming to an arrangement with the Muslim League after the 1937 elections, completely sidestepping his own role in the horse trading that weakened the Muslim unity board and led to the final break between the Muslim League and the Congress. Similarly, Azad concedes, rightly, that the Cabinet Mission Plan would have kept India united and that Congress was wrong in how it handled the Muslim League in the aftermath of the 1946 elections. It is also true that Azad wrote a letter to Gandhi, which suggested exactly that and which probably caused Azad to lose his place as president of the Congress. However, what Azad forgets is that he publicly justified and remained wedded to Congress erroneous interpretation of the groupings clause, which led to the collapse of the Cabinet Mission Plan.

Therefore, the myth of Azads prescience is problematic because it papers over facts leading to partition. It is a well-known fact now that Jinnahs own idea of Pakistan was in a treaty arrangement with India, a sort of a European Union type arrangement, and not of complete partition. In fact, according to Mountbatten, Jinnah had to be forced into accepting partition. Therefore, the Jinnah-Azad binary itself is perhaps a distortion of history and should be avoided in any serious investigation of partition.

The writer is a practising lawyer. He blogs at http://globallegalorum.blogspot and his twitter handle is therealylh

Home | Editorial


----------



## Bang Galore

Greywolf said:


> *COMMENT: Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and his legacy &#8212; Yasser Latif Hamdani*
> Azad&#8217;s role for two decades after partition was one of the token Congress Muslim &#8216;show boy&#8217; as Jinnah famously called him
> 
> .........................



Yasser Latif Hamdani has been on this unsubstantiated "crusade" against the Shorish Kashmiri interview without being able to prove that it is in fact a fudge. Anyone who either listened to Azad's speeches (available on internet btw) or has read what is written in "India Wins Freedom" would be left in no real doubt about the truth of the Shorish Kashmiri interview. The rest of his rubbishing of Azad & the Congress is standard fare for any believer of the two nation theory & YLH's comments are unfortunately par for the course. The fact that some 65 years after partition that some Pakistanis feel the need to still rubbish those Muslims who didn't share their view of the 2NT as _"Show-boys"_ is a sad reflection of the frustration felt by many when they see what Pakistan is today as opposed to the dream of 1947.

Time to move on!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ice_man

*The only problem is that the latter list of predictions has been transmitted to us through a dubious source. This source was Agha Shorish Kashmiri, a committed Ahrari leader who opposed the creation of Pakistan (and ironically, played an important role in fomenting sectarian trouble against Ahmadis and Shias in Pakistan). No one other than Kashmiri seems to have seen a record of this interview and there is no primary source to confirm this interview. The said interview does not appear in any of Azad&#8217;s papers or in any record of his life as preserved in India. In the view of this writer therefore, that interview was a concoction and a distortion invented by Agha Shorish Kashmiri in the 1970s when he wrote an Urdu biography of Azad. TV shows like Khabarnaak have recently referenced these predictions and the myth therefore, is now fully under way as being accepted as the gospel truth.*


wowwww!!! eye opener people swallow nonsense without confirming it!! this really did make me research & surely there is NO RECORD of MUALANA's preidcition. 

*Azad repeatedly denounced the Aligarh school and chastised Muslims for following the timid and pro-western ways of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, when Islam was a complete code of life. He also gave the famous fatwa for Hijrat, which declared that India under British rule was Dar-ul-Harb and that it was the religious duty of every Muslim to either resist the government or migrate to Afghanistan. It is noteworthy that Jinnah repeatedly warned Gandhi to stay away from this pseudo-religious approach, which would ultimately divide Hindus and Muslims as well as Muslims and Muslims. The consequences of the Khilafat Movement and the rhetoric of Azad and Maulana Mohammad Ali were that Muslim professionals left government service and other material benefits of the British rule and were led onto a path of self-destruction. *

this is another very interesting point that alot of people prefer to over look! 

*That Jinnah had predicted this in his letters to Gandhi is a matter of record. Azad&#8217;s role for two decades after partition was one of the token Congress Muslim &#8216;show boy&#8217; as Jinnah famously called him. In his book, India Wins Freedom, Azad blames Jawaharlal Nehru for not coming to an arrangement with the Muslim League after the 1937 elections*

so MUALANA blamed NEHRU of being arrogant & not willing to share power. 


*In fact, according to Mountbatten, Jinnah had to be forced into accepting partition.*

??????????????????????????????????????? when did mountbatten say that!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bang Galore

ice_man said:


> *In fact, according to Mountbatten, Jinnah had to be forced into accepting partition.*
> 
> ??????????????????????????????????????? when did mountbatten say that!!!



Actually the only partition that Mountbatten forced on Jinnah was that of Punjab & Bengal by pointing out that if he(Jinnah) did not want Muslims to live as a minority in a united India, he should certainly not expect Hindus & Sikhs to agree to live in a united Punjab & Bengal within Pakistan where they would be a minority _*( Jinnah's "A man is a Bengali/Punjabi before he is a Muslim/hindu was countered by Mountbatten's "That man is an Indian before being a Punjabi/Bengali" and if you insist on partitioning India, then partition of Punjab/Bengal follows)*_. Hoisted on his own petard if you will; Jinnah finally had to accept that particular partition.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ice_man

Bang Galore said:


> Actually the only partition that Mountbatten forced on Jinnah was that of Punjab & Bengal by pointing out that if he(Jinnah) did not want Muslims to live as a minority in a united India, he should certainly not expect Hindus & Sikhs to agree to live in a united Punjab & Bengal within Pakistan where they would be a minority _*( Jinnah's "A man is a Bengali/Punjabi before he is a Muslim/hindu was countered by Mountbatten's "That man is an Indian before being a Punjabi/Bengali" and if you insist on partitioning India, then partition of Punjab/Bengal follows)*_. Hoisted on his own petard if you will; Jinnah finally had to accept that particular partition.



so basically you agree that Mountbatten was working in FAVOR of india! that should debunk alot of people's myth that Brits were on pakistan's side! 

why wasn't this logic applied for kashmir by mountbatten?


----------



## Bang Galore

ice_man said:


> so basically you agree that Mountbatten was working in FAVOR of india! that should debunk alot of people's myth that Brits were on pakistan's side!



Mountbatten gave Jinnah a "Pakistan" & he took away smaller parts of Bengal & Kashmir (which he had to if he accepted the 2NT & created Pakistan), does it look like he worked for India?


> why wasn't this logic applied for kashmir by mountbatten?



Err...maybe because it was a princely state & could make its own arrangements? Btw, it amuses me to see Pakistanis bringing up Kashmir as some sort of a betrayal when Mr. Jinnah did & offered everything possible to the Maharaja of Jodhpur (a Hindu majority state) to go into Pakistan. It was only V P Menon who persuaded the Maharaja to accept less than what the Pakistanis were offering, even staring down the furious Maharaja when he pointed a pistol at him. Pakistan didn't have a V.P.Menon, so didn't get Kashmir (at least, not the whole part).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ice_man

Bang Galore said:


> Mountbatten gave Jinnah a "Pakistan" & he took away smaller parts of Bengal & Kashmir (which he had to if he accepted the 2NT & created Pakistan), does it look like he worked for India?
> 
> 
> Err...maybe because it was a princely state & could make its own arrangements? Btw, it amuses me to see Pakistanis bringing up Kashmir as some sort of a betrayal when Mr. Jinnah did & offered everything possible to the Maharaja of Jodhpur (a Hindu majority state) to go into Pakistan. It was only V P Menon who persuaded the Maharaja to accept less than what the Pakistanis were offering, even staring down the furious Maharaja when he pointed a pistol at him. Pakistan didn't have a V.P.Menon, so didn't get Kashmir (at least, not the whole part).



well that is the sad part indians fail to understand JINNAH TOOK PAKISTAN! with the will of the people and Mountabtten spoilt his plans by dividing bengal & punjab under the wily old nehru!


as for jodhpur well ofcourse jodhpur cannot be compared to kashmir. because jodhpur had a majority hindu led by a hindu. however, Junagadh & kashmir are similar. ruled by a man of different religion and subjects mostly 99% believing in another faith. 

in the case of kashmir Singh's accession was acceted in kashmir but in Junagadh the Nawab BHUTTO's wasn't? why

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bang Galore

ice_man said:


> well that is the sad part indians fail to understand JINNAH TOOK PAKISTAN! with the will of the people and Mountabtten spoilt his plans by dividing bengal & punjab under the wily old nehru!



What is your logic in asking that Hindus & Sikhs should have lived in Bengal & Punjab that was ostensibly a part of a Muslim country? Simply bewildering! What was that 2NT again?




> as for jodhpur well ofcourse jodhpur cannot be compared to kashmir. because jodhpur had a majority hindu led by a hindu.



So why did Mr. Jinnah try & get the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan? What part of the 2NT was that from?



> however, Junagadh & kashmir are similar. ruled by a man of different religion and subjects mostly 99% believing in another faith.
> in the case of kashmir Singh's accession was acceted in kashmir but in Junagadh the Nawab BHUTTO's wasn't? why



Pakistan was built on the premise of being a Muslim state, no logic whatsoever in attempting to add people who were non Muslims to it. India was & remains constitutionally secular, no bar for a Muslim majority, Sikh majority or Christian majority state from being a part of it.


----------



## Syed Naved

nuclearpak said:


> Shows how much of an upright person he was.


I love every muslim leagur leaders,respect them . but If the choice is between " quaid & others", then without wastin a second
I would choose Jinnah.On every sense he was a true leader,patriot & real dreamer , basis of United Pakistan.His unexpected death 
cost us much & always will.Long live QUAID

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ice_man

Bang Galore said:


> What is your logic in asking that Hindus & Sikhs should have lived in Bengal & Punjab that was ostensibly a part of a Muslim country? Simply bewildering! What was that 2NT again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why did Mr. Jinnah try & get the Maharaja to accede to Pakistan? What part of the 2NT was that from?
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan was built on the premise of being a Muslim state, no logic whatsoever in attempting to add people who were non Muslims to it. India was & remains constitutionally secular, no bar for a Muslim majority, Sikh majority or Christian majority state from being a part of it.



the 2NT is till today not understood by indians! it was simply this: Muslims will become a large minority in hindu india & their position will be marginalised! 

which it HAS become the case clearly. 

if 2NT was JUST for muslims ONLY as claimed by you! then paksitan would have no minoirty left! nor any sikhs left in Pakistan! 

& in the first speech by Mohammed Ali Jinnah made it clear.

now coming to JODHPUR Mohammed Ali Jinnah was more or less neutral to the accesion. didn't fight for it tooth & nail like he did for kashmir. Jodhpur never even became a major issue. comparatevly junagadh was bigger.

the irnoic situation is that from 1947 india just went after land grab be it junagadh,jodhpur,hyderabad or kashmir.


and incidents such as Orissa, golden temple or gujrat clearly debunks your belief that minorities in "secular" india are fine.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## third eye

ice_man said:


> the irnoic situation is that from 1947 india just went after land grab be it junagadh,jodhpur,hyderabad or kashmir.



Whats ironical about it ?

Consolidation was the first logical step after partition.


----------



## Bang Galore

ice_man said:


> the 2NT is till today not understood by indians! it was simply this: Muslims will become a large minority in hindu india & their position will be marginalised!
> 
> which it HAS become the case clearly.
> 
> if 2NT was JUST for muslims ONLY as claimed by you! then paksitan would have no minoirty left! nor any sikhs left in Pakistan!



Yeah...Muslims should not be a minority but Hindus of Bengal & Sikhs of Punjab should have been? Any surprise that they did not care for that particular position? As far as those minorities who remained in Pakistan, they are simply the lost people who for whatever reason made a poor decision & condemned themselves to a second class citizenship constitutionally.



> & in the first speech by Mohammed Ali Jinnah made it clear.



Words really come easy, no one in Pakistan ever took that seriously nor do they do now.


> now coming to JODHPUR Mohammed Ali Jinnah was more or less neutral to the accesion. didn't fight for it tooth & nail like he did for kashmir. Jodhpur never even became a major issue. comparatevly junagadh was bigger.



The question was not whether it became bigger or whether someone fought tooth & nail, Certainly not neutral since Jinnah offered a Hindu Raja with Hindu subjects extraordinary terms to join Pakistan - Karachi as a free port, control the railway line to Sindh and all this to get a Hindu populace to be a minority in a Muslim country when Mr. Jinnah proudly refused the reverse? That pretty much mocks anyone talking about what India did in Kashmir. Jinnah tried & failed, India succeeded! That's the difference.



> the irnoic situation is that from 1947 india just went after land grab be it junagadh,jodhpur,hyderabad or kashmir.



What's ironic? Pakistan tried persuasion & failed, then tried force & failed again. That's all!



> and incidents such as Orissa, golden temple or gujrat clearly debunks your belief that minorities in "secular" india are fine.


 

A bit rich coming from a Pakistani, whatever happens in India; it is simply not supported by the constitution. Your country institutes constitutional discrimination not only against the minorities but also those who claim to be part of your state religion simply because the majority disagree. You guys simply have no leg to stand on when you point fingers at some incidents in India.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tamizhan

^^ Please realize that people argue for their points to be heard, not to hear other's points, however brainwashed that may be --- especially in topics which deal with the creation of their nation.


----------



## Kompromat

Tamizhan said:


> ^^ Please realize that people argue for their points to be heard, not to hear other's points, however brainwashed that may be --- especially in topics which deal with the creation of their nation.



We have a massive industrial scale "Brainwasher" in every town , where we "brainwash" people everyday :facepalm:

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## rubyjackass

Slayer786 said:


> Nehru was having an affair with Mountbatten's wife, and Mountbatten knew and didnt mind(sick fellow). He was expecting favours in return ad gave Nehru what he wanted.
> Now we can argue our points till the cows come home, but no one will agreeon each other's points.
> Suffice to say that we in Pakistan are glad that partiton took place and we are not ruled by Hindus. You indus shouldbe happy that tere are very few muslims left otherwise we would have been a thorn in your side always.


Come up with some evidence and we will talk.



niaz said:


> Quaid also possessed a razor sharp intellect and was honest to a fault. Quaid had a brilliant legal mind and a single mindedness of purpose. Judging the personal character from the Islamic point of view such as offering prayers and observing the fast during Ramadan, Mualana Azad would be ahead of the Quaid.


With respect, if Quaid was honest enough there would be a lot of clarity in Pakistan about what he wanted the country to be. All his biographies say he always kept his cards to his chest. Nobody actually knew what the man thought. He was an enigma. He was an Islamist for the mullahs, a secular leader for the liberals. He did not clarify his positions in black and white for fear of losing support. 

However he was no doubt a stalwart, few people in the world can be credited with the creation of a state single-handledly.



Greywolf said:


> *COMMENT: Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and his legacy &#8212; Yasser Latif Hamdani*
> Azad&#8217;s role for two decades after partition was one of the token Congress Muslim &#8216;show boy&#8217; as Jinnah famously called him
> 
> As Pakistan continues to dangle on the brink of failure and India thrives, there are many who have begun to ask whether Maulana Azad, the great Indian leader and Islamic scholar, was right and Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah was wrong in those final days of the British Raj. Both Azad and Jinnah were extremely intelligent leaders and were contenders for the leadership of Muslims. The westernised Jinnah managed to win the support of the Muslim masses while the religious scholar, Maulana Azad, was sidelined.
> 
> In his autobiography, Azad made a prescient observation about Pakistan breaking into two, which came true of course. There are however, a number of predictions, all seemingly accurate, which are associated with Azad that seem to reinforce further his image as the sage of the age. He is said, amongst other things, to have predicted Pakistan&#8217;s dependence on western powers and growing discord between the religious right and liberals in Pakistan in an interview conducted in April 1946. The only problem is that the latter list of predictions has been transmitted to us through a dubious source. This source was Agha Shorish Kashmiri, a committed Ahrari leader who opposed the creation of Pakistan (and ironically, played an important role in fomenting sectarian trouble against Ahmadis and Shias in Pakistan). No one other than Kashmiri seems to have seen a record of this interview and there is no primary source to confirm this interview. The said interview does not appear in any of Azad&#8217;s papers or in any record of his life as preserved in India. In the view of this writer therefore, that interview was a concoction and a distortion invented by Agha Shorish Kashmiri in the 1970s when he wrote an Urdu biography of Azad. TV shows like Khabarnaak have recently referenced these predictions and the myth therefore, is now fully under way as being accepted as the gospel truth.
> 
> What is equally bothersome about this attempt to re-invent Azad as a latter day Nostradamus, staring into his crystal bowl and predicting the future is that it completely disregards his own role in the first five decades of the 20th century. The Khilafat Movement brought Azad, who was a well-respected Islamic scholar in Sunni circles, into prominence, where he used fiery Islamic rhetoric to galvanise the religious Muslim masses behind the movement to save the Caliphate in Turkey. Mahatma Gandhi and other Hindu leaders who, naively, assumed that deploying the abrasive theocratic logic of the Caliphate could somehow paradoxically bring Hindus and Muslims together on one platform, supported this movement. Azad repeatedly denounced the Aligarh school and chastised Muslims for following the timid and pro-western ways of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, when Islam was a complete code of life. He also gave the famous fatwa for Hijrat, which declared that India under British rule was Dar-ul-Harb and that it was the religious duty of every Muslim to either resist the government or migrate to Afghanistan. It is noteworthy that Jinnah repeatedly warned Gandhi to stay away from this pseudo-religious approach, which would ultimately divide Hindus and Muslims as well as Muslims and Muslims. The consequences of the Khilafat Movement and the rhetoric of Azad and Maulana Mohammad Ali were that Muslim professionals left government service and other material benefits of the British rule and were led onto a path of self-destruction. Gandhi, Azad and other leaders of this movement went on to ask even Aligarh University to refuse British patronage (while paradoxically failing to ask the same of Benaras Hindu University). Since the entire movement was built on a theological foundation, i.e. Pan-Islamism, it was bound to turn on itself. The Moplah Muslim uprising in the south completely shattered the façade of Hindu-Muslim unity created by the movement. In retaliation, Hindus started the Shuddhi (which was aimed at re-converting Muslims to Hinduism) and Sanghtan (organising and arming Hindus). In reaction to the Shuddhi and Sanghtan movements, Muslims came up with the Tabligh (propagation of faith) and Tanzeem (organisation) movements. This militant and hostile communal atmosphere laid the foundation for open communal warfare, leading to mass rioting and violence. The Khilafat Movement, which had temporarily united Hindus and Muslims for an illogical cause, rendered religious identities non-negotiable. That Jinnah had predicted this in his letters to Gandhi is a matter of record. Azad&#8217;s role for two decades after partition was one of the token Congress Muslim &#8216;show boy&#8217; as Jinnah famously called him. In his book, India Wins Freedom, Azad blames Jawaharlal Nehru for not coming to an arrangement with the Muslim League after the 1937 elections, completely sidestepping his own role in the horse trading that weakened the Muslim unity board and led to the final break between the Muslim League and the Congress. Similarly, Azad concedes, rightly, that the Cabinet Mission Plan would have kept India united and that Congress was wrong in how it handled the Muslim League in the aftermath of the 1946 elections. It is also true that Azad wrote a letter to Gandhi, which suggested exactly that and which probably caused Azad to lose his place as president of the Congress. However, what Azad forgets is that he publicly justified and remained wedded to Congress&#8217; erroneous interpretation of the groupings clause, which led to the collapse of the Cabinet Mission Plan.
> 
> Therefore, the myth of Azad&#8217;s prescience is problematic because it papers over facts leading to partition. It is a well-known fact now that Jinnah&#8217;s own idea of Pakistan was in a treaty arrangement with India, a sort of a European Union type arrangement, and not of complete partition. In fact, according to Mountbatten, Jinnah had to be forced into accepting partition. Therefore, the Jinnah-Azad binary itself is perhaps a distortion of history and should be avoided in any serious investigation of partition.
> 
> The writer is a practising lawyer. He blogs at http://globallegalorum.blogspot and his twitter handle is therealylh
> 
> Home | Editorial



The point of the writer seems to be that Maulana's ideas and actions through the first half of 1900s contradict what he says in the 'alleged' interview. I don't see any such contradiction.


----------



## ice_man

Bang Galore said:


> Yeah...Muslims should not be a minority but Hindus of Bengal & Sikhs of Punjab should have been? Any surprise that they did not care for that particular position? As far as those minorities who remained in Pakistan, they are simply the lost people who for whatever reason made a poor decision & condemned themselves to a second class citizenship constitutionally.
> 
> 
> 
> Words really come easy, no one in Pakistan ever took that seriously nor do they do now.
> 
> 
> The question was not whether it became bigger or whether someone fought tooth & nail, Certainly not neutral since Jinnah offered a Hindu Raja with Hindu subjects extraordinary terms to join Pakistan - Karachi as a free port, control the railway line to Sindh and all this to get a Hindu populace to be a minority in a Muslim country when Mr. Jinnah proudly refused the reverse? That pretty much mocks anyone talking about what India did in Kashmir. Jinnah tried & failed, India succeeded! That's the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> What's ironic? Pakistan tried persuasion & failed, then tried force & failed again. That's all!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A bit rich coming from a Pakistani, whatever happens in India; it is simply not supported by the constitution. Your country institutes constitutional discrimination not only against the minorities but also those who claim to be part of your state religion simply because the majority disagree. You guys simply have no leg to stand on when you point fingers at some incidents in India.



the minorities of Pakistan are doing alright! we have had a few men in our armed forces such as CECIL CHAUDRY & the Harcharan Singh as well as Rana Bhagwan das became our CJ! & let us not forget CAUSJEE(a parsi editor)! 

the issue that indians seem to highlight is taliban killing minorities! well guess what talibans blow up bombs in every city killing people of majority & minority sects! they are enemy of the NATION not only minorities! 

well i am sorry but never heard of jinnah offering FREE ZONE karachi port & railway lines to JODHPUR if he did please shed some light by posting a legitimate source if not then i guess you are proven wrong. 



as for no leeg to stand upon well every minority in india has suffered be it the christians,sikhs or muslims so i am sorry the farce of secularism that you wish to cloak yourself with is just a utopian feel that you wish to believe. kashmiris suffer daily in kashmir that you claim as yours and yet indians turn a blind eye to it and call themselves Secular. is it written in your constitution to oppress the kashmiris?


----------



## aristocrat

> He was an enigma. He was an Islamist for the mullahs, a secular leader for the liberals. He did not clarify his positions in black and white for fear of losing support.



salute brigadier!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kalu_miah

I have gone through some of this thread. Both were great leaders, both had different visions, since Jinnah's vision came true, it is hard to tell how united India would have turned out. So it is unfair to criticize Azad, as we really have no idea and will never know.

The important thing to realize is that it is time to move on, for both Pakistan and Bangladesh to find their destiny. For Pakistan if it is not with Russia, then with Iran, Turkey and Central Asian states and for Bangladesh with ASEAN.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vinod2070

Pakistan tried to go with Arab and other Islamic countries after 1971.

Let's just say the results were not encouraging. 

Anyway, best wishes for the future for finding the destiny outside of the subcontinent. That is the only alternative left anyway, having burnt the bridges.


----------



## Vinod2070

ice_man said:


> the minorities of Pakistan are doing alright! we have had a few men in our armed forces such as CECIL CHAUDRY & the Harcharan Singh as well as Rana Bhagwan das became our CJ! & let us not forget CAUSJEE(a parsi editor)!
> 
> the issue that indians seem to highlight is taliban killing minorities! well guess what talibans blow up bombs in every city killing people of majority & minority sects! they are enemy of the NATION not only minorities!
> 
> well i am sorry but never heard of jinnah offering FREE ZONE karachi port & railway lines to JODHPUR if he did please shed some light by posting a legitimate source if not then i guess you are proven wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> as for no leeg to stand upon well every minority in india has suffered be it the christians,sikhs or muslims so i am sorry the farce of secularism that you wish to cloak yourself with is just a utopian feel that you wish to believe. kashmiris suffer daily in kashmir that you claim as yours and yet indians turn a blind eye to it and call themselves Secular. is it written in your constitution to oppress the kashmiris?


 
The minorities of West Pakistan were almost completely ethnically cleansed with official support right at the time of partition.

The negligibly small population left has been reducing in population share every passing year. They are so negligible now that it is mainly the turn of minority Islamic sects like Ahmedi, Shia, Sufi followers etc. now.

It is incredible that Pakistanis can even speak about minority treatment with genuine secular democracies like India where minorities have full constitutional rights. This in a region full of religious extremism and tyranny for a thousand miles and beyond where no secular democracies exist, only extremism, fanaticism and dictatorships.

Of course we have our challenges, many of them coming from our geography. That doesn't take away from the basic essence of our liberal secular democracy in a sea of backward religious extremism all around us.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Vinod2070 said:


> The minorities of West Pakistan were almost completely ethnically cleansed with official support right at the time of partition.
> 
> The negligibly small population left has been reducing in population share every passing year. They are so negligible now that it is mainly the turn of minority Islamic sects like Ahmedi, Shia, Sufi followers etc. now.
> 
> *It is incredible that Pakistanis can even speak about minority treatment with genuine secular democracies like India where minorities have full constitutional rights. This in a region full of religious extremism and tyranny for a thousand miles and beyond where no secular democracies exist, only extremism, fanaticism and dictatorships.*
> 
> Of course we have our challenges, many of them coming from our geography. That doesn't take away from the basic essence of our liberal secular democracy in a sea of backward religious extremism all around us.


----------



## Kompromat

TaimiKhan said:


>



Tim bhai , someone just brain farted

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

TaimiKhan said:


>



Govt eases citizenship rules for Pak refugees



> According to home ministry records, these 12,000 Pakistanis &#8212; most of them Hindus &#8212; entered India on long-term visas before 2004, 75% of them
> having migrated to Delhi, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat and Maharashtra.



Govt eases citizenship rules for Pak refugees - Hindustan Times


----------



## Vinod2070

TaimiKhan said:


>


 
What is it that you seem to have an issue with?

Any facts that you don't agree with?


----------



## Rusty

Vinod2070 said:


> Pakistan tried to go with Arab and other Islamic countries after 1971.
> 
> Let's just say the results were not encouraging.
> 
> Anyway, best wishes for the future for finding the destiny outside of the subcontinent. That is the only alternative left anyway, having burnt the bridges.



Despite your fanboyism, Pakistan was actually very successful in manipulating large powers (mostly US) into giving us nice toys and helping us along. Pakistan was the first country to get the F16 and because of us, the US had to export it to other allies as well. Even though they were developing the F20 for export. 

As for the future
Well the future lies in east Asia, mostly China, and guess who's good friends with China? 
I'll give you a hint, it's not India


----------



## Vinod2070

Rusty said:


> Despite your fanboyism, Pakistan was actually very successful in manipulating large powers (mostly US) into giving us nice toys and helping us along. Pakistan was the first country to get the F16 and because of us, the US had to export it to other allies as well. Even though they were developing the F20 for export.



A bit off topic, but you are enjoying the fruits of that "manipulation" till today.

And remember, all the bills have not been paid so far.



> As for the future
> Well the future lies in east Asia, mostly China, and guess who's good friends with China?
> I'll give you a hint, it's not India



So in opposite direction to the Islamic Ummah.

Let me just give you one hint, the majority of the Chinese (along with Japanese and Koreans) have negative perceptions of Muslims and Pakistan.

As one Chinese colonel says on another place: China will fight India to the last Pakistani. That is the extent of their interest in you and no wonder you are happy playing the role.


----------



## ice_man

Vinod2070 said:


> The minorities of West Pakistan were almost completely ethnically cleansed with official support right at the time of partition.
> 
> The negligibly small population left has been reducing in population share every passing year. They are so negligible now that it is mainly the turn of minority Islamic sects like Ahmedi, Shia, Sufi followers etc. now.
> 
> It is incredible that Pakistanis can even speak about minority treatment with genuine secular democracies like India where minorities have full constitutional rights. This in a region full of religious extremism and tyranny for a thousand miles and beyond where no secular democracies exist, only extremism, fanaticism and dictatorships.
> 
> Of course we have our challenges, many of them coming from our geography. That doesn't take away from the basic essence of our liberal secular democracy in a sea of backward religious extremism all around us.


 
i like how you live in a utopia. but i guess you forget the treatment of muslims in kashmir done by your indian government. 


and your claim of killing of minorties at time of partition well didn't india kill muslims then? and wasn't PATEL blamed for standing by and not doing anything?

secular democratic india where does it exist? surely IN THEORY only!


----------



## LaBong

> He is said, amongst other things, to have predicted Pakistans dependence on western powers and growing discord between the religious right and liberals in Pakistan in an interview conducted in April 1946. The only problem is that the latter list of predictions has been transmitted to us through a dubious source. This source was Agha Shorish Kashmiri, a committed Ahrari leader who opposed the creation of Pakistan (and ironically, played an important role in fomenting sectarian trouble against Ahmadis and Shias in Pakistan). No one other than Kashmiri seems to have seen a record of this interview and there is no primary source to confirm this interview. The said interview does not appear in any of Azads papers or in any record of his life as preserved in India. In the view of this writer therefore, that interview was a concoction and a distortion invented by *Agha Shorish Kashmiri in the 1970s when he wrote an Urdu biography of Azad*.



Even if we agree that Mr Kashmiri concocted the Azad interview, how did he(Mr Kashmiri) knew about Pakistan's dependence on Western powers and growing discord between liberals and right-wing, way back in 70s? 

As far I remember, even in late 80s, Taliban were students, Mujahids were righteous people fight against bloody commies and Hakkani was goodness personified.


----------



## Vinod2070

ice_man said:


> i like how you live in a utopia. but i guess you forget the treatment of muslims in kashmir done by your indian government.
> 
> 
> and your claim of killing of minorties at time of partition well didn't india kill muslims then? and wasn't PATEL blamed for standing by and not doing anything?
> 
> secular democratic india where does it exist? surely IN THEORY only!


 
Given the way Pakistani ethnically cleansed its own minorities, you have no right to complain at all.

Kashmiris only suffered due to Pakistani sponsored Islamic extremist terror. Now that the terror has been defeated for the most part, things are returning to normal. Really fast.

The population share of Hindus/Sikhs in Pakistan and Muslims in India tells the complete story if one just opens the eyes.

There is just no comparison between an Islamic state that legally and constitutionally treats its few remaining minorities (and even Islamic sects like Ahmedi) as second class citizens with a genuine liberal, tolerant, secular democracy. Its like comparing chalk and cheese.


----------



## kalu_miah

Rusty said:


> Despite your fanboyism, Pakistan was actually very successful in manipulating large powers (mostly US) into giving us nice toys and helping us along. Pakistan was the first country to get the F16 and because of us, the US had to export it to other allies as well. Even though they were developing the F20 for export.
> 
> As for the future
> Well the future lies in east Asia, mostly China, and guess who's good friends with China?
> I'll give you a hint, it's not India



China, in my opinion is a temporary solution. Han Chinese majority will not be able to absorb a large state like Pakistan in a union, so it will be difficult for Pakistan to ever become an integral part of China, may be a partner and a trusted ally at the most, lets say SCO member, like Turkey has become a NATO member, but not part of EU. In my opinion, Pakistan needs to explore other options, if Russia refuses to include it in Eurasian Union, then Iran, Turkey, GCC+ remains pretty much the only available option, while remaining allied with the Chinese for the time being. But then too many people will see the shadow of Khilafa in that, not that it matters what other people think. Just my 0.02.


----------



## Fun2Video.com

Our leaders are not our well wisher and we are also responsible for this.
We can be a good nation like china but our leaders are not giving us basic needs like water, electricity, petrol, gas etc..
So when we stuck in earning basic needs for our family than how can a man take part to make our country proud?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ravian 245

Maulana Azad represented a false thinking of our islamic scholars OF SUB CONTINENT at that time, who believed that muslims will remain united, and better economically and religiously in united india.BUT the time has proven the thinking of Quaid-e-Azam to be true.Today the remaining muslims in india are sometimes killed by extremists hindus in the name of religion or denied of economic properity. The same reasons MR.JINNAH wanted to create pakistan.SO the time has proven Mr. JINNAH right.HATS OFF FOR ALL HIS EFFORTS. LONG LIVE PAKISTAN.AMEEN.


----------



## KRAIT

ravian 245 said:


> Maulana Azad represented a false thinking of our islamic scholars OF SUB CONTINENT at that time, who believed that muslims will remain united, and better economically and religiously in united india.BUT the time has proven the thinking of Quaid-e-Azam to be true.Today the remaining *muslims in india are sometimes killed by extremists hindus in the name of religion or denied of economic properity. *The same reasons MR.JINNAH wanted to create pakistan.SO the time has proven Mr. JINNAH right.HATS OFF FOR ALL HIS EFFORTS. LONG LIVE PAKISTAN.AMEEN.


So Muslims are not killed by Islamic extremists or Muslims in Pakistan and they are not denied of prosperity by the govt.,corrupt leaders and bureaucrats.

Stop this comparison of Indian Muslims v/s Pakistani Muslims.

Indian Muslims think they made the right choice and so does Pakistani Muslims. Period.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------

