# Pakistan Navy's answer SM-2 for Brahmos.



## Myth_buster_1

In Aug 2010 first of the eight FFG will be handed over to PN and will go through intensive refurbishments with increased capabilities such as retaining of MK13 launcher that will give the frigate the capability to use missiles again.


> *MK13 launcher with SM-2 *


The foreigner operators of FFGs such as Australia and Turkey under a nearly billion dollars program are getting their frigates upgraded that will give them parity with most of the modern frigates today. 

I do not want to go into detail about FFG program but the armament that will be acquired for it such as SM-2.

In short words SM-2 will give PN the capability to engage air threats such as sub-super sonic AShM CM, aircraft, helicopters and a secondary capability to engage surface targets such as corvettes and Frigates. 
4 or 5 of these hurled towards a enemy's frigate at speed mach 3.5 fallowed by a Harpoon will have a devastating effect!


A surface target destroyed by a SM-2


















its a hypothetical situation and it may happen.

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## SpArK

How is it answer to Brahmos??

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## Pak123

BENNY said:


> How is it answer to Brahmos??



same here ?


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## Myth_buster_1

BENNY said:


> How is it answer to Brahmos??



Did you only read the title? 

Read the descriptions! It has a primary role against air threats such as Brahmos and secondary role against surface targets.


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## jagjitnatt

Growler said:


> Did you only read the title?
> 
> Read the descriptions! It has a primary role against air threats such as Brahmos and secondary role against surface targets.



First of all the frigates you are getting are for $70 million per frigate. They are being sold to you as a goodwill gesture and because they are being retired from service.

The frigates will be stripped off all the missiles and weapon systems. Only the frigate will be sold to you, not the weapons. You will install your own weapons on it.
There is no indication that SM-2 will be sold to you or that Pak is interested in SM2.

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## Myth_buster_1

kakag said:


> The RIM-66C/D Standard MR (SM-2MR Block I), was developed in the 1970s by usa navy
> 
> 
> 
> another old junk from usa.....
> guys kabhi to kuch naya khareedo



Another troller from bharatraksak with no sense what so ever. 

SM-2 block IIIA/B cleared IOC in 1998 and is used by more powerful navy USA with Ticonderoga class cruiser and Arleigh Burke class.


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## SpArK

According to you how much capable is it against Brahmos?

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## brahmastra

how this missile can matchup with brahmos?

this missile got max. range <=166.7km. while brahmos got 290km range.

do you think that BrahMos will give you chance to fire the missile. or in otherwords, to come close to 160km.

Almost every warship of IN is/will be equipped with Brahmos. So, technicall, you need missile with range of atleast 300km.

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## Mirza Jatt

Growler said:


> Did you only read the title?
> 
> Read the descriptions! It has a primary role against air threats such as Brahmos and secondary role against surface targets.



forget its role....the title says SM-2 is the answer for Brahmos... care to explain ??

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## Myth_buster_1

jagjitnatt said:


> First of all the frigates you are getting are for $70 million per frigate. They are being sold to you as a goodwill gesture and because they are being retired from service.
> 
> The frigates will be stripped off all the missiles and weapon systems. Only the frigate will be sold to you, not the weapons. You will install your own weapons on it.
> There is no indication that SM-2 will be sold to you or that Pak is interested in SM2.



First of all you know the brain that mighty god gave you kindly use it for once! Or do some research first for a change will you.

Secondly. The Frigates are for free and if we are to buy the frigate would cost any nation about a 100 million dollars. The refurbishment cost is 78 million dollars which will be done according to PN requirements. 
Go to this link and educate yourself.

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## kakag

Growler said:


> First of all you know the brain that mighty god gave you kindly use it for once! Or do some research first for a change will you.
> 
> Secondly. The Frigates are for free and if we are to buy the frigate would cost any nation about a 100 million dollars. The refurbishment cost is 78 million dollars which will be done according to PN requirements.



mere bhai isme SM 2 ke bare me kaha likha hai


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## Mirza Jatt

jagjitnatt said:


> Pakistan is *not getting* the SM-2 in the first place. It is only getting the frigates. So this is a delusional thread, based on a lot of assumptions.



whatt ?only the frigates ?? 

BTW Growler where is the source confirming its the SM-2 missile that PN is getting and not just the Frigate ?? cause we know its the old retiring frigate that you are getting.

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## Myth_buster_1

brahmastra said:


> how this missile can matchup with brahmos?
> 
> this missile got max. range <=166.7km. while brahmos got 290km range.
> 
> do you think that BrahMos will give you chance to fire the missile. or in otherwords, to come close to 160km.
> 
> Almost every warship of IN is/will be equipped with Brahmos. So, technicall, you need missile with range of atleast 300km.



You have clearly proved that you lack knowledge of the subject. 
Not bothering replying to this low quality post.


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## SpArK

Growler said:


> First of all you know the brain that mighty god gave you kindly use it for once! Or do some research first for a change will you.
> 
> Secondly. The Frigates are for free and if we are to buy the frigate would cost any nation about a 100 million dollars. The refurbishment cost is 78 million dollars which will be done according to PN requirements.
> Go to this link and educate yourself.



I cant find anything other than a frigate commissioned in *1979* is transferred to PN. Does the missiles comes for free or is it standard equipment?

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## Myth_buster_1

Indian Jatt said:


> whatt ?only the frigates ??
> BTW Growler where is the source confirming its the SM-2 missile that PN is getting and not just the Frigate ?? cause we know its the old retiring frigate that you are getting.



The armament package will be announced soon by the PN officials. SM-2 is a prime candidate for FFG up gradation programs.


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## jagjitnatt

Growler said:


> First of all you know the brain that mighty god gave you kindly use it for once! Or do some research first for a change will you.
> 
> Secondly. The Frigates are for free and if we are to buy the frigate would cost any nation about a 100 million dollars. The refurbishment cost is 78 million dollars which will be done according to PN requirements.
> Go to this link and educate yourself.



Instead of suggesting me to use my brain, couldn't you use yours a little?
Anyways, why am I even expecting that after reading all those threads of yours?

Pakistan likely to buy Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate worth $78 million from USA : Defense news
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan to pay $78 mn for 30 year old frigate

SM-2 missiles are not operational on these frigates used by US first of all. SM-1 were used but they are now retired. Australia didn't get the missile with the frigate. It is spending over a billion dollars to get it fitted on their frigates.

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## SpArK

Growler said:


> The armament package will be announced soon by the PN officials. SM-2 is a prime candidate for FFG up gradation programs.



Then would nt it be better come with thread when its *announced*. And then we can discuss "how it becomes and answer for Brahmos. Cheers mate.

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## Mirza Jatt

Growler said:


> The armament package will be announced soon by the PN officials. SM-2 is a prime candidate for FFG up gradation programs.



So you mean its not announced or confirmed yet and you are just starting a thread on the basis of your personal assumption ?? 
and if we have to go with Jagjitnatts post ..it proves that SM-2 is simply not operation on this frigate which is more than 30 years old.

wasnt expected  

just wasted my time so my last post....


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## jagjitnatt

Growler said:


> Do you have a link that confirms Pakistan will not get a armament package for FFGs? Other wise you are nothing but a troller.



The links I posted above clearly state:



> onboard spares, spare and repairs parts, support equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support.
> 
> The estimated cost of the refurbishment and support is $78 million.



there is no mention of weapons and it is common sense that weapons are not supplied when the ships are being donated. If you would have bought it, then it would have been different. Also since you are paying for the above things, if you were keen on buying the weapons, they would have been listed there along with the price tag.

It is just not feasible for PN to buy weapons since they would cost a lot, much more than the frigate along with the electronic equipment, combat support system, etc etc.

You already have the chinese systems in place and would prefer those to reduce cost. Hint: F22P


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## Areesh

Growler sir you made a big mistake by saying that PN will get something that will deter against Brahmos. Indian ego can not accept that their can be something which can be an answer to the Brahmos.


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## shiningindia

Growler said:


> First of all you know the brain that mighty god gave you kindly use it for once! Or do some research first for a change will you.
> 
> Secondly. The Frigates are for free and if we are to buy the frigate would cost any nation about a 100 million dollars. The refurbishment cost is 78 million dollars which will be done according to PN requirements.
> Go to this link and educate yourself.



WASHINGTON: Pakistan and United States signed a contract for the transfer of the guided-missile frigate USS McInerney here on Tuesday.

The contract will enable Pakistan to take over the USS McInerney at the US Naval station Mayport, Florida on August 31 this year, after which it will be commissioned as PNS Alamgir .A comprehensive refurbishment of the ship will be undertaken under the supervision of US Navy, which will be completed by January 2011.

Defence Procurement AttachÈ Captain Abdur Rehman inked the contract on behalf of Pakistan Navy. The successful culmination of this contract will also pave way for acquisition of more vessels of same class for the Pakistan Navy to raise a squadron of eight Perry-Class frigates. This will greatly enhance operational readiness of Pakistan Navy.

USS McInerney is the second ship of the Oliver Hazard Perry-Class of guided-missile frigates. In September 2008, the US Congress had approved provision of the frigate to Pakistan with a delivery date of August 2010. Citing the Foreign Assistance Act and the Arms Export Control Act, Pakistan is considered a major non-Nato ally and is able to receive older unneeded US military equipment. *Additionally, the 32-year-old frigate will be given a $ 65 million refurbishment, including anti-submarine capability paid for with foreign military aid provided by the US to the friendly countries. Pakistan will pay $78 million for the frigate.*

Pakistan to get US guided-missile frigate on Aug 31


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## IndianArmy

Areesh said:


> Growler sir you made a big mistake by saying that PN will get something that will deter against Brahmos. Indian ego can not accept that their can be something which can be an answer to the Brahmos.



Sir, There is absolutely no answer to the Brahmos, Even The USA are Still on the verge of developing A machine of such caliber, And Brahmos what so ever cannot be intercepted and Its Maneuverability and Accuracy is such that it has No Answer..... If You think I am Un wise here, You very well can Take your point as final... No harm

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## Myth_buster_1

When Pakistan leased USN Brooke class frigates in late 80s and early 90s armaments were also bought to go with it such as SM-1 ASROC and Harpoon. 





Indians trollers that they are lack comprehension about armament package will be also acquired for the FFGs. 
The MK-13 system has 40 round magazine. respectively 8 Harpoons and 32 Standard Missiles. 

The match has started gotta go and watch. 

 trollers.

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## Patriot

Also for indian trollers SM-2 is ship defense weapons in other words it will track and hit the incoming missiles before they hit the ship.


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## sohan

Let's wait and see. The US in the past has never sold any truly game-changing weapons to Pakistan.

That is if the SM-2 can counter the Brahmos at all.


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## IndianArmy

Patriot said:


> Also for indian trollers SM-2 is ship defense weapons in other words it will track and hit the incoming missiles before they hit the ship.



Sir, The Speed has to match as that to the advisory, and even if that matches the Tracking device cannot chase down a target moving at a speed of Over MACH-2 .... Brahmos basically is made to Skid through enemy tracking devices, So Interception of any missile with Brahmos is Not possible......


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## S-A-B-E-R->

ppl first thing op class is not a charity its wt they O us after heavy losses of men and economy in WOT .secondly PN is no ediot to take another system with no diversity yes it MAY have SM or any other new system but saying that today ll be to premature .abt SM against bramos well u dont need to match its speed to destroy it nither u need very long range actually a slow moving counter missle ll be more effective against heigh sspeed missle y because when it gets close enough to the missle the CM having slow speed ll priject its shockwave and fragmantation in a spharical form thus creating more chance of 
hit


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## faithfulguy

I think because India acquire Brahmos technology from Russia. US should provide Evolved Sea Sparrow to Pakistani navy. This missile can definitely counter Brahmos, one of the very few successful projects ever came out of India military industrial complex.


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## desiman

1) Pakistan is not getting the SM2 

2) Even if it somehow manages to get it, its only a naval platform where on the other hand the Brahmos can be fired from land, sea and air so i dont know how its a deterrent to it. 

3) The SM2 is not configured to intercept supersonic missiles, its more of a deterrent to sub sonic targets. 

4) A couple of Frigates equipped with the SM2 is no where a deterrent to the Indian navy and not at all to the Brahmos.

and one more thing, the top speed of march 3 is rarely achieved for such missile configurations mainly because of the variable involved, the SM2 is infact not even among the 10 best system in the world, so how it is a deterrent i dont know. Ya now go on and call me a troller also growler lol


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## z9-ec

IndianArmy said:


> Sir, The Speed has to match as that to the advisory, and even if that matches the Tracking device cannot chase down a target moving at a speed of Over MACH-2 .... Brahmos basically is made to Skid through enemy tracking devices, So Interception of any missile with Brahmos is Not possible......



Pakistan Navy already has FM-90N advance variant of HQ-7. Standard HQ-7 has a speed of mach 2.3 where as the latest FM-90N is said to have longer range and speed to engage aerial targets.


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## IndianArmy

z9-ec said:


> Pakistan Navy already has FM-90N advance variant of HQ-7. Standard HQ-7 has a speed of mach 2.3 where as the latest FM-90N is said to have longer range and speed to engage aerial targets.



Can It bring down a supersonic missile aswell??? I doubt that.... Basically Brahmos is A fire and forget missile, with 100&#37; chance of hitting the target... You can even read it in there website
www.brahmos.com


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## z9-ec

IndianArmy said:


> Can It bring down a supersonic missile aswell??? I doubt that.... Basically Brahmos is A fire and forget missile, with 100% chance of hitting the target... You can even read it in there website
> BRAHMOS - Universal Supersonic Cruise Missile



Yes, FM-90N is meant to engage all aerial targets that includes sub/super sonic missiles and aircrafts.


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## IndianArmy

z9-ec said:


> Yes, FM-90N is meant to engage all aerial targets that includes sub/super sonic missiles and aircrafts.



I doubt, but its not written like that by the makers of these weapons... Brahmos is a deadly anti-ship missile or a cruise missile.... I just told whats written in there website


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## Peregrine

Hi
Defense against a cruise missile is one thing, But Pakistan also happens to have a cruise missile i.e Babur, Babur has more range than Brahmos, not to mention Raad and modified harpoons to attack india( source is Indian media )


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## dbc

IndianArmy said:


> Sir, There is absolutely no answer to the Brahmos, Even The USA are Still on the verge of developing A machine of such caliber, And Brahmos what so ever cannot be intercepted and Its Maneuverability and Accuracy is such that it has No Answer..... If You think I am Un wise here, You very well can Take your point as final... No harm



You are right there is "absolutely no answer" to fan boy claims of Brahmos efficacy. So far on this forum I've heard claims such as Brahmos is invisible, it can turn on a dime, it has 'Artificial intelligence' and it is impervious to ECCM and now there is "absolutely no answer" and even the US is incapable of making a Brahmos.

Are you able to provide any proof for your claims?

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## indiarocks

Growler said:


> Do you have a link that confirms Pakistan will not get a armament package for FFGs? Other wise you are nothing but a troller.



give me a link that says u r getting it........


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## z9-ec

IndianArmy said:


> I doubt, but its not written like that by the makers of these weapons... Brahmos is a deadly anti-ship missile or a cruise missile.... I just told whats written in there website



BrahMos is not meant to be a stealth missile it is prone to detection by radar. Babur serves this purpose with high degree of manoeuvrability, allowing it to "hug" terrain and "near-stealth" capabilities.


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## IndianArmy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You are right there is "absolutely no answer" to fan boy claims of Brahmos efficacy. So far on this forum I've heard claims such as Brahmos is invisible, it can turn on a dime, it has 'Artificial intelligence' and it is impervious to ECCM and now there is "absolutely no answer" and even the US is incapable of making a Brahmos.
> 
> Are you able to provide any proof for your claims?



First of All , I am an Ex army personnel, Secondly I was not in any Strategic Missile Division or Wing, But I keep myself updated, what more source does one need to look at than the One created by the Missile developers itself 

BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com

Read the second paragraph of this link


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## dbc

desiman said:


> *3) The SM2 is not configured to intercept supersonic missiles, its more of a deterrent to sub sonic targets. *









Wrong bottom right image shows interception of a supersonic cruise missile.

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## IndianArmy

z9-ec said:


> BrahMos is not meant to be a stealth missile it is prone to detection by radar. Babur serves this purpose with high degree of manoeuvrability, allowing it to "hug" terrain and "near-stealth" capabilities.



Brahmos is not stealth missile??? where did you get that info from?? ofcourse it is stealth...


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## z9-ec

IndianArmy said:


> Brahmos is not stealth missile??? where did you get that info from?? ofcourse it is stealth...



The sheer speed of the missile will not allow it "hug" terrain/sea skimming or display near stealth abilities. The primary purpose of the missile is speed. No where does it say on your link that the missile is sea/terrain friendly or displays any stealth abilities.


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## dbc

IndianArmy said:


> First of All , I am an Ex army personnel, Secondly I was not in any Strategic Missile Division or Wing, But I keep myself updated, what more source does one need to look at than the One created by the Missile developers itself
> 
> BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com
> 
> Read the second paragraph of this link



 Where does it say it "absolutely no answer"? Brahmos may be effective against unsophisticated adversaries but against a well trained,equipped and alert navy it will have limited success.

There are several counter measures against the Brahmos, I suggest you read the following to learn more. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53380-brahmos-high-2.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ange-cruise-missile-nirbhay-drdo-chief-3.html


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## Myth_buster_1

desiman said:


> 1) Pakistan is not getting the SM2
> 
> 2) Even if it somehow manages to get it, its only a naval platform where on the other hand the Brahmos can be fired from land, sea and air so i dont know how its a deterrent to it.
> 
> 3) The SM2 is not configured to intercept supersonic missiles, its more of a deterrent to sub sonic targets.
> 
> 4) A couple of Frigates equipped with the SM2 is no where a deterrent to the Indian navy and not at all to the Brahmos.
> 
> and one more thing, the top speed of march 3 is rarely achieved for such missile configurations mainly because of the variable involved, the SM2 is infact not even among the 10 best system in the world, so how it is a deterrent i dont know. Ya now go on and call me a troller also growler lol



Not surprised to know such a low quality post from a member who has been defeated in many countless arguments and ran away with all the nonsense you could pour. 

1) Prove it that Pakistan is not getting SM-2? Elaborate! 
PN has previously operated SM-1 and as the FFGs are inducted so will the armaments to go with it and SM-2 is a prime candidate since MK-13 magazine is specifically made for Standard Missiles such as SM-1 and SM-2 (including newer versions). 

2) Obviously you lack comprehension. Remember the context here is NAVAL. 

3) You simply lack any knowledge other then the big mouth that you run here. 
The Standard Missile 2 have the capability to engage all sort of cruise missiles and AShM including sub and super sonic. 
You have also failed to acknowledge the fact that SM-1 in 70s were deployed to shoot down USSR mach 2.5 AShM P-270 Moskit. 

4) Indeed you are not just a troller but of a highest order! lol
When you make a claim to satisfy your loser indian ego then provide sources other wise you are nothing but a troller and a fanboy.

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## IndianArmy

z9-ec said:


> The sheer speed of the missile will not allow it "hug" terrain or display near stealth abilities. The primary purpose of the missile is speed. No where does it say on your link that the missile is terrain friendly or displays any stealth abilities.



And what makes you think so??? Any specific reasons That Speed can not co exist with Stealth? By the way read my link again, The very first para says its stealthy, the next para says, No weapon system in this world can bring this down....Now If You think you are smarter than those who created this missile, I am helpless but to agree with you

BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com


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## Isaq Khan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Where does it say it "absolutely no answer"? Brahmos may be effective against unsophisticated adversaries but against a well trained,equipped and alert navy it will have limited success.
> 
> There are several counter measures against the Brahmos, I suggest you read the following to learn more.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53380-brahmos-high-2.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ange-cruise-missile-nirbhay-drdo-chief-3.html




Can you give me the link of any "WORKING+DEPLOYED" system of the world that can destroy a supersonic cruise missile????

Also, does Pakistan has it???

If No, then plz shut up no need to post off topic.


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## IndianArmy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Where does it say it "absolutely no answer"? Brahmos may be effective against unsophisticated adversaries but against a well trained,equipped and alert navy it will have limited success.
> 
> There are several counter measures against the Brahmos, I suggest you read the following to learn more.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53380-brahmos-high-2.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ange-cruise-missile-nirbhay-drdo-chief-3.html



Read the second para of the link I gave, If it states ,No weapon system in the world can intercept it, does It not mean that The brahmos has no answer?

BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com


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## Myth_buster_1

IndianArmy said:


> Brahmos is not stealth missile??? where did you get that info from?? ofcourse it is stealth...



Deluded IndianArmy Fanboy. Brahmos is a export product of USSR P-800 which is not stealth.

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## dbc

Isaq Khan said:


> Can you give me the link of any "WORKING+DEPLOYED" system of the world that can destroy a supersonic cruise missile????
> 
> Also, does Pakistan has it???
> 
> If No, then plz shut up no need to post off topic.



Duh! Read the first post SM2 is working and deployed.


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## ameer219

Just because USA doesn't create a supersonic cruise missile, and India/Russia created one, doesn't make America less capable than India/Russia. There is definitely a reason why they did not create a supersonic cruise missile in the first place


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## Patriot

IndianArmy,
Sir do you think Brhamos official site will list the missiles that can intercept and destroy it or list the ECM that can make it useless?

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## Myth_buster_1

Isaq Khan said:


> Can you give me the link of any "WORKING+DEPLOYED" system of the world that can destroy a supersonic cruise missile????
> 
> Also, does Pakistan has it???
> 
> If No, then plz shut up no need to post off topic.



Goes to show that indians dont even read the starting post of the thread before they start their trolling mission. 
The Raytheon article that i just gave clearly mentions that SM-2 has the capability to engage super sonic missiles. 

In fact SM-3 which is a further development of SM-2 successfully engaged a satellite.


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## IndianArmy

Growler said:


> Deluded IndianArmy Fanboy. Brahmos is a export product of USSR P-800 which is not stealth.



If You cannot respect one, please do not indulge in debates... I have never Made any one angry , Where was I wrong or offending in my post that you had to use such a sentence?


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## IndianArmy

Patriot said:


> IndianArmy,
> Sir do you think Brhamos official site will list the missiles that can intercept and destroy it or list the ECM that can make it useless?



What more of a choice do we have than to believe them?? And More over, When it comes to defense no one posts fiction, If they do, they are Putting that country to risk, So They wouldnt just like that Put it


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## dbc

IndianArmy said:


> Read the second para of the link I gave, If it states ,No weapon system in the world can intercept it, does It not mean that The brahmos has no answer?
> 
> BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com



The Brahmos site claims *".........non-interception by any known weapons system in the world"*  sounds like an unprofessional fan boy claim.

First have they tested this against all know weapons systems?
Raytheon claim in their product datasheet that their Evolved SeaSparrow Missile is capable of intercepting the Brahmos (turn to page 2). I don't know about you but I trust Raytheon way more than Brahmos Aerospace.


http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...cuments/content/rtn_rms_ps_essm_datasheet.pdf

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## deckingraj

I don't get it guys...I know we are adversary but can't we even have a civilized discussion...

Very simple question...It seems that the proofs that are being provided by thread strated does not show you are going to get SM2...How difficult is the tast to show something and prove the other party wrong???

What is that we get in personal insults....Indian Trolls...Fragates in Charity etc etc??? There is no doubt that these frigates are good will gesture from US on Pakistan's effort in WOT...However we can always use words that shoulf not sound offensive...On other hand asking legimitate question should not be considered as trolling...

Fair???

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## Myth_buster_1

Some information about ESSM which is less capable then SM-2.
source Raytheon website. 



> ESSM Mission The Evolved SeaSparrow Missile (ESSM) defends the local area battlespace, delivering lethal, quick reaction firepower against *faster*, lower, smaller and more maneuverable
> anti-ship threats, including cruise missiles, surface threats and low-velocity air threats.





> Threat Coverage
> &#8226; High-speed, highly maneuverable
> anti-ship missiles (SS-N-22,
> *Brahmos,* etc.)



Brahmos aka PJ-800 variant invincible my .


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## Isaq Khan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The Brahmos site claims *".........non-interception by any known weapons system in the world"*  sounds like an unprofessional fan boy claim.
> 
> First have they tested this against all know weapons systems?
> Raytheon claim in their product datasheet that their Evolved SeaSparrow Missile is capable of intercepting the Brahmos (turn to page 2). I don't know about you but I trust Raytheon way more than Brahmos Aerospace.
> 
> 
> http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...cuments/content/rtn_rms_ps_essm_datasheet.pdf






1. So in other words you are saying that "Raytheon" have tested their system against Brahmos?????????

2. And still u call them more professional???

3. Why are u posting off topic are we discussing ESSM???

4. Stick to the Pakistani capabilities V/s Brahmos.


----------



## IndianArmy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The Brahmos site claims *".........non-interception by any known weapons system in the world"*  sounds like an unprofessional fan boy claim.
> 
> First have they tested this against all know weapons systems?
> Raytheon claim in their product datasheet that their Evolved SeaSparrow Missile is capable of intercepting the Brahmos (turn to page 2). I don't know about you but I trust Raytheon way more than Brahmos Aerospace.
> 
> 
> http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...cuments/content/rtn_rms_ps_essm_datasheet.pdf



Developing a weapon is no childs play sir, and If they have mentioned it, they Mean it..... They might have done a virtual testing by keeping all the parameters Normal... Without doing anything, the developer never comes to a conclusion....


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## Myth_buster_1

This news will brake heart for many indian fanboys.



> Raytheon Standard Missile-2 Demonstrates Sea-Based Terminal, Fleet Protection
> 
> POINT MUGU, Calif., March 27, 2009 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- *A Raytheon Company Standard Missile-2 Block IV missile intercepted and destroyed a ballistic missile target* at the U.S. Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division. The SM-2 Block IV engagement demonstrated a near-term, sea-based capability for *destroying short-range ballistic missiles in their terminal or final phase of flight*.
> 
> During the same test, a Raytheon SM-2 Block IIIA missile intercepted and destroyed a low-altitude, anti-ship cruise missile target. The first-of-its-kind test simultaneously demonstrated an air warfare capability against a low-altitude, anti-ship cruise missile and a ship system engagement capability.
> 
> The crew of the guided missile destroyer USS Benfold (DDG-65) fired both SM-2 surface-to-air missiles. The ballistic missile target was launched from San Nicolas Island, Calif., while the anti-ship cruise missile target was launched from Point Mugu.
> 
> *"These intercepts once again prove SM-2, whatever the mission, is the best option for protecting our warfighters at sea," said Frank Wyatt, Raytheon Missile Systems vice president of Naval Weapon Systems. "SM-2 Block IV can destroy incoming short-range ballistic missiles through direct impact or by detonating a blast-fragmentation warhead close to the target. SM-2 Block IIIA offers the best advanced fleet protection against all air warfare threats."
> *
> This was the third test of the modified SM-2 Block IV missile against short range ballistic missiles and the latest in a series of tests using the SM-2 Block IIIA. Raytheon is also working with the Missile Defense Agency to develop a far-term, sea-based terminal capability.
> 
> Raytheon Company, with 2008 sales of $23.2 billion, is a technology and innovation leader specializing in defense, homeland security and other government markets throughout the world. With a history of innovation spanning 87 years, Raytheon provides state-of-the-art electronics, mission systems integration and other capabilities in the areas of sensing; effects; and command, control, communications and intelligence systems, as well as a broad range of mission support services. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 73,000 people worldwide.


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## deckingraj

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The Brahmos site claims *".........non-interception by any known weapons system in the world"*  sounds like an unprofessional fan boy claim.
> 
> First have they tested this against all know weapons systems?
> Raytheon claim in their product datasheet that their Evolved SeaSparrow Missile is capable of intercepting the Brahmos (turn to page 2). I don't know about you but I trust Raytheon way more than Brahmos Aerospace.
> 
> 
> http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...cuments/content/rtn_rms_ps_essm_datasheet.pdf



Ms. I am very well aware of your understanding about the effectiveness of Brahmos....However why don't you point the guy to the thread where you shared your opinion rather than discussing something which is off topic as far as this thread is concerned??? Here we are talking only about SM2 vs Brahmos and moreover if PN is getting this missile in first place... If you have info then kindly share light on it...or else my humble request lets not convert this thread into Brahmos vs Rest of world...


----------



## sohan

Well if the SM-2 is really that potent, Pakistan is definitely not getting it.


----------



## desiman

Growler said:


> Not surprised to know such a low quality post from a member who has been defeated in many countless arguments and ran away with all the nonsense you could pour.
> 
> 1) Prove it that Pakistan is not getting SM-2? Elaborate!
> PN has previously operated SM-1 and as the FFGs are inducted so will the armaments to go with it and SM-2 is a prime candidate since MK-13 magazine is specifically made for Standard Missiles such as SM-1 and SM-2 (including newer versions).
> 
> 2) Obviously you lack comprehension. Remember the context here is NAVAL.
> 
> 3) You simply lack any knowledge other then the big mouth that you run here.
> The Standard Missile 2 have the capability to engage all sort of cruise missiles and AShM including sub and super sonic.
> You have also failed to acknowledge the fact that SM-1 in 70s were deployed to shoot down USSR mach 2.5 AShM P-270 Moskit.
> 
> 4) Indeed you are not just a troller but of a highest order! lol
> When you make a claim to satisfy your loser indian ego then provide sources other wise you are nothing but a troller and a fanboy.



LOL ya come down to personal attacks and then call me a troll, how nice. I have no time to argue with foolish kids.

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## Iggy

Growler said:


> Indians are obviously deluded and senseless.
> 
> Some information about ESSM which is less capable then SM-2.
> source Raytheon website.
> 
> Brahmos aka PJ-800 variant invincible my .



Growler still you didnt answer the question?is Pakistan Navy going to get it?


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## z9-ec

First off, to claim BrahMos as invincible is truly exaggeration beyond measure. Technology evolves in time there are no known systems that are completely invincible. An example is the first combat hit on F-117 in Yugoslavia.

There are known counter measures and systems that can be deployed against BrahMos.


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## Myth_buster_1

Isaq Khan said:


> 1. So in other words you are saying that "Raytheon" have tested their system against Brahmos?????????
> 
> 2. And still u call them more professional???
> 
> 3. Why are u posting off topic are we discussing ESSM???
> 
> 4. Stick to the Pakistani capabilities V/s Brahmos.



@ troll fanboy

1) *The US has tested supersonic drone that simulates Russian supersonic missiles.*
2) Raytheon is 100000000000000x more reliable as a source then any fanboy site based in India.
3) That is to show that even a less capable missile compared to SM-2 has the capability to engage super sonic missiles. 
4) thats coming from you sounds strange.


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## deckingraj

Growler said:


> Indians are obviously deluded and senseless.



Don't you think you can be more useful without such stupid lines in your post??? I am following the thread and have not contributed anything to this thread apart from cooling people...So would you mind explaining to me how am i deluded and senseless???

You have accused many people of trolling but i am afraid you have joined the party right from Page 1 of this thread...

P.S : Your posts are informative however such idiotic remarks give a bad taste and provoke to reply back accordingly....Please refrain from them and challenge people who challenged your assertion on merit and not on bad mouth....

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## Myth_buster_1

seiko said:


> Growler still you didnt answer the question?is Pakistan Navy going to get it?



FFG requires AShM SAM torpedo like any other frigates. 
Its already clear that AShM will be Harpoon while the MK-13 launching magazine is specifically made for Standard Missiles. The only option is to go at Standard Missile 2. And yes PN will get it.


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## sohan

^ $10 says it won't.

I'll put the money in right away.


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## Myth_buster_1

Isaq Khan said:


> Growler,
> 
> if u don't mind can i know your age?????????
> 
> why are u posting BS, the SM-2 news you are posting is talking about ballistic missiles and *Brahmos is supersonic CRUISE MISSILE.*
> 
> 
> *Do u even know the difference between a cruise and ballistic missile?????*



What ever my age is, I am more mature then you and you certainly lack knowledge and comprehension of anything. 

Ballistic missile was intercepted at its terminal or final phase of flight which is more faster then Barahmos which certinally shatters indian myth that Bahramos cant be intercepted.


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## deckingraj

^^^^^^^^^

Guys please stop personal attacks...You might be surprised but there are some people who are genuinely interested in reading about the capabilities of this frigade and how much punch it will add to PN...

I am sorry but from now on i will personally start reporting all posts that even have an iota of personal insult in it...

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## Peregrine

sohan said:


> Well if the SM-2 is really that potent, Pakistan is definitely not getting it.


Hi 
Yes the Americans surely need your consent for that


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## Myth_buster_1

Read Indians READ! 

Tested Value
SM-2 has an extensive area- and self-defense flight test history; more than 2,500 flight tests from both domestic and international platforms of various weapon system configurations have been successfully executed. These engagements have been against all target types from subsonic to supersonic, from small to large radar cross sections, in clear and EA jamming environments, and from short to long range. Target types engaged have included a wide range of threats, such as
helicopters, aircraft and missiles (from sea-skimming to high-altitude), that presented cruise, standoff and diving profiles.


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## dbc

Isaq Khan said:


> 1. So in other words you are saying that "Raytheon" have tested their system against Brahmos?????????
> 
> 2. And still u call them more professional???
> 
> 3. Why are u posting off topic are we discussing ESSM???
> 
> 4. Stick to the Pakistani capabilities V/s Brahmos.







Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ESSM customers include United States,Australia,Canada, Germany, Greece, Japan, Denmark, The Netherlands,and Norway. Countries in the process of integrating ESSM are New Zealand, Spain, Turkey, and the United Arab Emirates. The claim of success is based on extensive testing against MQM-8 Vandal, Boeing/Zvezda-Strela MA-31 and GQM-163A Coyote employed as non-recoverable target vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Boeing/Zvezda-Strela is especially interesting since it is based on the the Russian AS-17 Krypton a member of the Yakhont/Brahmos family purchased from the Russians in the mid 90's.
> 
> I've said this before a supersonic anti-ship cruise missile is not a new concept, self respecting navies all over the world have had effective counter measures for at least a decade.



It was tested against Brahmos's daddy after Boeing improved the guidance system. Next you'll tell me Brahmos Aerospace has more experience in guidance and seeker technology than Boeing?

Raytheon is a reputed arms manufacturer they have a long list of accomplishments that including Tomahawk and APG-77 to name a few. Brahmos Aerospace will take several decades to build that sort of reputation and customer base.

I don't see how talking about ESSM in a SM-2 discussion is off topic?

You seem upset

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## Peregrine

Hi ^^^
Off-course they are upset as Pakistani might be getting it


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## Myth_buster_1

http://www.raytheon.com/broadcasts/rtn09_sm2blkIV_asx.asx

watch the video of SM-2 Block 4 intercepting scud missile which has a speed exceeding Bharamos.


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## indiarocks

Growler said:


> In Aug 2010 first of the eight FFG will be handed over to PN and will go through intensive refurbishments with increased capabilities such as retaining of MK13 launcher that will give the frigate the capability to use missiles again.
> The foreigner operators of FFGs such as Australia and Turkey under a nearly billion dollars program are getting their frigates upgraded that will give them parity with most of the modern frigates today.
> 
> I do not want to go into detail about FFG program but the armament that will be acquired for it such as SM-2.
> 
> In short words SM-2 will give PN the capability to engage air threats such as sub-super sonic AShM CM, aircraft, helicopters and a secondary capability to engage surface targets such as corvettes and Frigates.
> 4 or 5 of these hurled towards a enemy's frigate at speed mach 3.5 fallowed by a Harpoon will have a devastating effect!
> 
> 
> A surface target destroyed by a SM-2
> YouTube - SM2 VLS launch



Lockheed Martin briefs Indian Navy on Aegis missile defence system
happy to see a system offered for indian frigate due to which sm-2 was not used so much.............


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## bc040400065

kakag said:


> The RIM-66C/D Standard MR (SM-2MR Block I), was developed in the 1970s by usa navy
> 
> 
> 
> another old junk from usa.....
> guys kabhi to kuch naya khareedo



dear why buy new one when refurbished one can do the job... but we are buying new ones as well from china F22p and may be soem heavy class frigates in future... so no need to waste money...


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## Imran Khan

jagjitnatt said:


> 8 pages of debate on a system that Pakistan is not even getting???



you can say its not yet clear pakistan is geting or not along with frigate.but you can't say totally not geting.


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## Peregrine

kakag said:


> live in your dream its good for u
> 
> 
> first of all pakistan only got fringet not so called sm2


Hi
"The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Feb. 18 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for refurbishment of one OLIVER HAZARD PERRY Class Frigate and associated equipment, parts and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $78 million"
http://www.****************/pakistan-refurbishment-ffg-8-frigate-24375/

There is nothing that suggests that SM-2 will be removed, they only one who is having such wishful thinking is you and your compatriots  seconndly after such elaborate discussion about the effectiveness of SM-2 in previous posts the one who still calls it "so-called" only reflects the amount of frustration erupting in ones heart


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## sohan

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> "The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Feb. 18 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for refurbishment of one OLIVER HAZARD PERRY Class Frigate and associated equipment, parts and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $78 million"
> http://www.****************/pakistan-refurbishment-ffg-8-frigate-24375/
> 
> There is nothing that suggests that SM-2 will be removed, they only one who is having such wishful thinking is you and your compatriots  seconndly after such elaborate discussion about the effectiveness of SM-2 in previous posts the one who still calls it "so-called" only reflects the amount of frustration erupting in ones heart



The SM-2 isn't on the frigates in the first place.

Australia got these frigates too, but they had to pay USD1b+ to refurbish it to fit SM-2s.


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## Awesome

Has there been any confirmation on the SM-2?


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## Areesh

Mods should keep an eye on the new Indian members because most of the new members including some old one doesn't seem to have something positive and constructive to say. They only troll and get banned after few days. So it's better to ban them just when they start posting troll.


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## SpArK

*Pakistan Navy's answer SM-2 for Brahmos. *
*Regarding* the title: 
How many are being inducted?
What is the unit cost?
When its being fitted to the Frigate?


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## Myth_buster_1

RAN HMAS Melbourne (FFG) firing SM-2.


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## Imran Khan

Areesh said:


> Mods should keep an eye on the new Indian members because most of the new members including some old one doesn't seem to have something positive and constructive to say. They only troll and get banned after few days. So it's better to ban them just when they start posting troll.



i have serius concern on level of doiscuss by many new members

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## Imran Khan

BENNY said:


> *Pakistan Navy's answer SM-2 for Brahmos. *
> *Regarding* the title:
> How many are being inducted?
> What is the unit cost?
> When its being fitted to the Frigate?



use google toolbar sir i see before 30mints you say you know every thing abut ffg and now again same tune\





> Originally Posted by BENNY
> I have done the research and the whole history of USS McInerney is right in front of me.Ask me any questions , i will answer you.


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## jagjitnatt

Asim Aquil said:


> Has there been any confirmation on the SM-2?



There is no sign of any SM-2 on any frigate of that class. This is just a fanboy thread wishing for a christmas present.

-There never was a SM-2 on any frigate of that class.
-Only SM-1 is operational on these frigate but since it got retired a few years back, it is not available for purchase.
-Whenever a ship is sold or given to some other country, it is ripped apart and all classified weapon systems and combat related systems are removed.

An example is Admiral Gorshkov, Trishul class submarines etc.

Pakistan getting SM-2 is like saying India would get the P500 missiles and the long range torpedoes with Nerpa class submarine and Admiral Gorshkov.


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## Imran Khan

BENNY said:


> I have done the research and the whole history of USS McInerney is right in front of me.Ask me any questions , i will answer you.



what is this are not you research whole history before 1 hour ? or you like to drail the thread???????????/


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## Awesome

It's a kickass system to have though. Will allow our Ships the freedom to fend off air attacks.


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## SpArK

Imran Khan said:


> use google toolbar sir i see before 30mints you say you know every thing abut ffg and now again same tune



i have used but could nt find any link whatsoever as the thread title suggests. And didnt find any argument going on regarding this other than the frigate aquisition from US.

I hope at least you sir can explain to me why the thread title actually means.

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## SpArK

Imran Khan said:


> what is this are not you research whole history before 1 hour ? or you like to drail the thread???????????/



Yes i know about the frigate.But nothing about SM-2 being offered to PN. Its not derailing. I suppose we still are discussing SM-2 .

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## Imran Khan

BENNY said:


> i have used but could nt find any link whatsoever as the thread title suggests. And didnt find any argument going on regarding this other than the frigate aquisition from US.
> 
> I hope at least you sir can explain to me why the thread title actually means.



1 is coming on 31dec this year and expected more some sorces claim more will come not yet receved or inducted single.when 31dec day wil come we can easy see there is sm-2 or not.we reqest 6 of them

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## Myth_buster_1

Asim Aquil said:


> Has there been any confirmation on the SM-2?



The PN FFG will under go a intensive refurbishment according to PN requirements. MK-13 will be reinstalled to utilize its 40 round magazine specifically made for 8 Harpoons and 32 Standard Missiles. Since PN intends to use these frigates beyond 2020 it only indicates that only SM-2 a newer version will be able to keep up with it since all SM-1 will be retired by 2020. PN ordered 64 SM-1 along with ASROC and Harpoons for its Brooke class frigates leased from USN and as far as I know PN gave back the Frigates and kept the armaments that it paid for. 
SM-1 can be brought back to life under Raytheons SM-1 full-service
support (FSS) program to supplement PN FFGs as reserve stocks. 
Of course FFGs in PN will require Sams and SM-2 is the only sense able choice.


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## SpArK

Imran Khan said:


> 1 is coming on 31dec this year and expected more some sorces claim more will come not yet receved or inducted single.when 31dec day wil come we can easy see there is sm-2 or not.



OK. Thanks for clearing the doubt by providing a clear cut answer. 

If you can provide some source that would be very helpful.
But anyway i appreciate that you answered me straight rather than calling me a "troll".


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## Isaq Khan

1. 9 pages and 1,647 views and all we are discussing a super duper imaginative thing??

2. The thread starter has shown its true intentions by using flame and fake title.

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## notorious_eagle

IndianArmy said:


> Sir, The Speed has to match as that to the advisory, and even if that matches the Tracking device cannot chase down a target moving at a speed of Over MACH-2 .... Brahmos basically is made to Skid through enemy tracking devices, So Interception of any missile with Brahmos is Not possible......



A head on interception is definitely possible or it can be shot down by Radar Guided Anti Air Craft Guns. The key to defeating Brahmos is early detection; considering the fact that Pakistan has TPS 77/YL2 in service and our AWACS being operational soon, your super duper Brahmos will be detected long before you can launch it from ground or air. From the sea, Delhi Class would have to come near Pakistan's shore because Brahmos has a range of 280km. As soon as it comes near our shore, it brings it right inside the target of Harpoon II or C803. Brahmos is built to skid through enemy defences through its speed not by stealth; but with speed its sacrifices its manuverability and stealth because the sheer speed increases its heat signature. This would be possible if you were targetting locations against a weak adversary, but when you have an adversary like Pakistan that has top of the line Radar Coverage its simply not possible. A subsonic cruise missile is better in my opinion because it has stealth on its side, its a terrain hugging missile that can possibly evade the enemy's radar. 

You should read this thread, follow Gambits and DOB's post for more info. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53380-brahmos-high.html

Its good to be patriotic but its even worse to be blind. I am just seeing Indian fanboys giving me the same arguments they give me for the Super Duper MKI; it has Israeli Radar and Jammers, French Avionics blah blah blah and piloted by Martian Indian pilots capable of sustaining 20g's that is why it cannot be defeated.

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## thinkingcap81

Growler said:


> Of course FFGs in PN will require Sams and SM-2 is the only sense able choice.



So it is not confirmed that Pakistan is getting the SM-2. No one is saying that for Pakistan Brahmos will remain invincible for time immemorial. We are questioning the possibility of how soon the PN will be able to field the system. Also the IN will not sit quiet with the induction of Brahmos. Systems will be continuously upgraded. It is a never-ending game.

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## Myth_buster_1

jagjitnatt said:


> There is no sign of any SM-2 on any frigate of that class. This is just a fanboy thread wishing for a christmas present.
> 
> -There never was a SM-2 on any frigate of that class.
> -Only SM-1 is operational on these frigate but since it got retired a few years back, it is not available for purchase.
> -Whenever a ship is sold or given to some other country, it is ripped apart and all classified weapon systems and combat related systems are removed.
> 
> An example is Admiral Gorshkov, Trishul class submarines etc.
> 
> Pakistan getting SM-2 is like saying India would get the P500 missiles and the long range torpedoes with Nerpa class submarine and Admiral Gorshkov.



The problem with you is you dont do research and even if you do its only limited to WIKIPEEDIA and that you dont read even the materials that we provide to you and all you have to do is "READ". 

RAN FFGs will receive 8 VLS cells to incorporate ESSMs. Not to forget that SM-1 in RAN service are being replaced by SM-2 block III as we speak. 
Here is the video of SM-2 being fired from MK-13. (obviously you did not do any research at all before wrote this comment in denial). 





The FFGs that pakistan are getting are (FREE) i repeat (FREE). PN will have to pay for Intensive Refurbishments that will also retain MK-13 launching system and nothing will be stripped in PN FFGs because they were only done by USN for cost savings for its self only. 

So kindly when you make such a absurd post do some research!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

thinkingcap81 said:


> So it is not confirmed that Pakistan is getting the SM-2. No one is saying that for Pakistan Brahmos will remain invincible for time immemorial. We are questioning the possibility of how soon the PN will be able to field the system. Also the IN will not sit quiet with the induction of Brahmos. Systems will be continuously upgraded. It is a never-ending game.



According to sources (google will help) PN will receive all of the 8 refurbished FFGs by 2014. The first FFG will be handed over to PN in Aug 2010 in US FL where it will go through intensive refurbishments on PN requirements and will reach pakistan in JAN 2011. 
The MK13 system is specifically made for 32 round of Standard Missiles and the prime candidate is the SM-2. 
And remember for every threat their is a counter and the cycle goes on.


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## deckingraj

Growler said:


> According to sources (google will help) PN will receive all of the 8 refurbished FFGs by 2014. The first FFG will be handed over to PN in Aug 2010 in US FL where it will go through intensive refurbishments on PN requirements and will reach pakistan in JAN 2011.
> *The MK13 system is specifically made for 32 round of Standard Missiles and the prime candidate is the SM-2. *
> And remember for every threat their is a counter and the cycle goes on.



If i get bolded part right there is high probability that SM-2 would be fitted however it is not confirmed...

Will this be right explanation??


----------



## thinkingcap81

Growler said:


> According to sources (google will help) PN will receive all of the 8 refurbished FFGs by 2014. The first FFG will be handed over to PN in Aug 2010 in US FL where it will go through intensive refurbishments on PN requirements and will reach pakistan in JAN 2011.
> The MK13 system is specifically made for 32 round of Standard Missiles and the prime candidate is the SM-2.
> And remember for every threat their is a counter and the cycle goes on.



All right Mr. Growler, you may optimistically hope that PN will get the SM-2 and i will optimistically hope that even if your optimism is validated Brahmos will still be a very potent weapon as not all of them can be intercepted. If some Brahmos can be intercepted even then Brahmos will be effective as subsonic missiles will have a greater chance of interception by SM-2 (kindly confirm this part).

But i do wish that you reduce commenting every now and then about trolling and deluded Indians. This reduces the quality of your posts.


----------



## JonAsad

thinkingcap81 said:


> So it is not confirmed that Pakistan is getting the SM-2. No one is saying that for Pakistan Brahmos will remain invincible for time immemorial. We are questioning the possibility of how soon the PN will be able to field the system. Also the IN will not sit quiet with the induction of Brahmos. Systems will be continuously upgraded. It is a never-ending game.



The point is Sir,
1. brahmoos is not invisible at radar, the only advantage it has is speed.
2. to fire a brahmoos u have to come atleast 250 km inside towards the target vessel. if its a fishing boat surely brahmoos wil destroy it, but if its Pakistani navy vessel then before you could fire the brahmoos you will be fired at with Harpoon II or C803. 

The equation.
Harpoon II for the brahmoos carrier and SM 2 for the launched brahmoos (i.e if it was able to lauch)

Result.

Brahmoos missile along with its vessel destroyed.


i have created this simple scenario just for the fan boi's to understad that during a war.. many othr factors play a important role. having a SUPER SONIC CRUISE MISSILE BRAHMOOOOOOOOOOOS is not enough.

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## thinkingcap81

jonasad said:


> The equation.
> Harpoon II for the brahmoos carrier and SM 2 for the launched brahmoos (i.e if it was able to lauch)
> 
> Result.
> 
> Brahmoos missile along with its vessel destroyed.



In that case i guess that IN will have to rely on its anti-missile systems. Israeli help is being sought in this regard. And numbers do make a difference as is the case for IN in comparison to PN.

I am getting out of this thread for now as i am not knowledgeable enough.


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## Myth_buster_1

deckingraj said:


> If i get bolded part right there is high probability that SM-2 would be fitted however it is not confirmed...
> 
> Will this be right explanation??



Dont for get that FFG in USN role will serve differently then in PN. USN can afford to place FFGs without any AShM or SAM because 1) they primarily serve as ASW 2) they have Ticonderoga class cruiser and Arleigh Burke class destroyer for that role and form protection. 
In Pak-Indo context they can not simply and logically afford to rely on other type of platforms for their protections. 

What else would PN FFGs get?


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## Peregrine

HI
if Pakistan is getting MK13 system then they are definitely not acquiring it to hang sailors clothes


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## Windjammer

We have had Indian members calling the Frigates decommissioned junk, given as freebies or in charity, they will lack the punching power while their pride and joy Brahmos is undetectable, untouchable, foolproof with 100% reliability to score and deployed on every Indian Naval Ship. What else is there, ah yes, the usual tactics of jumping on the band wagon and patting on the back.

@ Growler is it just me or do you see a pattern. Best to post your material and ignore the hooray Hardeeps.

Any words when the carrier of the future will set sail out of Russian docks to make the Indian Navy impregnable.

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## deckingraj

Growler said:


> What else would PN FFGs get?



No doubt about it but then why to have such titles??? If you have atleast be more clear that what you are claiming makes sense however it is not confirmed... All you are making is a logical guess and there is nothing wrong in it...

However what's wrong in saying this??? Now coming to Brahmos vs SM2 that is a relevant topic that we guys should discuss....Hope people can now go back to debate as the confusion is settled....


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## JonAsad

thinkingcap81 said:


> In that case i guess that IN will have to rely on its anti-missile systems. Israeli help is being sought in this regard. And numbers do make a difference as is the case for IN in comparison to PN.
> 
> I am getting out of this thread for now as i am not knowledgeable enough.



here you are coming to the point, unlike some of your other friends they are not even willing to believe that brahmoos can be intercepted even when the facts are being provided by Pakistani memebers about SM2.

i liked your honesty. so get out


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## Imran Khan

sorry guys no more insult posts we can discuss in good way.please be civil


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## Thomas

jagjitnatt said:


> Pakistan is *not getting* the SM-2 in the first place. It is only getting the frigates. So this is a delusional thread, based on a lot of assumptions.



Nothing wrong with speculating what upgrades the FFG-7's will get. We know it will have increased defense and anti sub capability for sure. But it has not been announced yet what those upgrades will be exactly. If Australia does the upgrading based on what they have done to their own FFG-7's. it could include the Evovled Sea Sparrow (ESSM). Which is definitely capable of shooting down the Brahmos.

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## Myth_buster_1

thinkingcap81 said:


> All right Mr. Growler, you may optimistically hope that PN will get the SM-2 and i will optimistically hope that even if your optimism is validated Brahmos will still be a very potent weapon as not all of them can be intercepted. If some Brahmos can be intercepted even then Brahmos will be effective as subsonic missiles will have a greater chance of interception by SM-2 (kindly confirm this part).
> 
> But i do wish that you reduce commenting every now and then about trolling and deluded Indians. This reduces the quality of your posts.



In a scenario where 8 FFGs are operating together in PAK small territorial waters of Arabian sea it will be quite hard for many or some bharamos to slip through. 
Turkey has also offered Pakistan their GENES&#304;S Combat Management System.
A state-of-the-art combat management system to quickly, efficiently and effectively detect, identify, track and engage air, surface and subsurface
threats across multiple radar and surveillance systems for optimum awareness and decision making.
Pakistan navy has also shown a lot of interests in this system and since PAK will not pay money from its own budget for its refurbishment IMO pak will probably do up gradation to make it parity with current technologies. It will be like 25+ years block 15 F-16 receiving MLU M3 package which will make it to block 52 level or 25+ years old IAF Mirage-2000 to Mirage-2009 level after upgrades.

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## desiman

Thomas said:


> Nothing wrong with speculating what upgrades the FFG-7's will get. We know it will have increased defense and anti sub capability for sure. But it has not been announced yet what those upgrades will be exactly. If Australia does the upgrading based on what they have done to their own FFG-7's. it could include the Evovled Sea Sparrow (ESSM). Which is definitely capable of shooting down the Brahmos.



there is a huge difference between speculation and stating that PN will get the SM2.

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## deckingraj

Windjammer said:


> We have had Indian members calling the Frigates decommissioned junk, given as freebies or in charity, they will lack the punching power while their pride and joy Brahmos is undetectable, untouchable, foolproof with 100% reliability to score and deployed on every Indian Naval Ship. What else is there, ah yes, the usual tactics of jumping on the band wagon and patting on the back.
> 
> *@ Growler is it just me or do you see a pattern.* Best to post your material and ignore the hooray Hardeeps.



There are many other patterns as well but i am in no mood to derail the thread...However lets get some facts straight

- Indeed US is giving you these frigates in Good will gesture...I do not see anything wrong in it however fact won't change... It is US gratitude for your role in WOT
- Brahmos is indeed a class of its own.... Obviously the makers of these missiles have lot of confidence in this system capabilities... other wise a platform that was primarily intended for Anti-Ship role would not have seen so manu variants

* Ship launched, Anti-Ship variant (operational)
* Ship launched, Land attack variant (operational)
* Land launched, Land attack variant (operational)
* Land launched, Anti-Ship variant (existence not confirmed)
* Air launched, Anti-Ship variant (development)
* Air launched, Land attack variant (development) [6]
* Submarine launched, Anti-Ship variant (development)
* Submarine launched, Land attack variant (development)

- Nothing is invincible....Nothing was nothing would be....Even the makers don't claim a 100% kill probability, however Brahmos definitely increases the kill probablity by leaps and bounds as compared to its other counterparts.... Didn't you provided a link where it was claimed that F-16 had a lock on Raptor??? However can you vouch that every time a F-16 can get a lock on raptor??? Obviously no...Similarly Brahmos is far more deadly than its counterparts and is definitely gives you an edge over your enemy...Now both are overstatements

- Enemy is doomed because we have brahmos
- Brahmos is nothing but a low stealth supersonic missile that can be taken down easily...

In the end measures and counter measures will keep evolving...It is nothing but a never ending game...




> Any words when the carrier of the future will set sail out of Russian docks to make the Indian Navy impregnable.



No need to put offtopic rubbish and if you think gorkshov is not going to increase IN capabilities by leaps and bounds then all i can say is that you are living in fools paradise...

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## notorious_eagle

desiman said:


> PN is not getting SM2's, simple as that, case closed.



Agreed, no point in arguing since there is no concrete evidence suggesting we will be getting SM2. Big ticket defence purchases with US are transperent unlike our purchases from China which are kept a secret, so if we are getting it i am sure the public will be notified of the proposed sale. Although i do reckon that if PN requests this system which i believe they will, there shouldnt be much of a problem from the American side. After all they didnt had any problems selling us the AMRAAMs, Harpoon II, JDAMS, Bunker Busters and LGB's which are more lethal than this system.


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## Myth_buster_1

notorious_eagle said:


> Agreed, no point in arguing since there is no concrete evidence suggesting we will be getting SM2. Big ticket defence purchases with US are transperent unlike our purchases from China which are kept a secret, so if we are getting it i am sure the public will be notified of the proposed sale. Although i do reckon that if PN requests this system which i believe they will, there shouldnt be much of a problem from the American side. After all they didnt had any problems selling us the AMRAAMs, Harpoon II, JDAMS, Bunker Busters and LGB's which are more lethal than this system.



So were the AGM-65 for F-16s ever mentioned in news before it popped up in PAF Block52+ in a ceremony. What about AGM-154?


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## jagjitnatt

Growler said:


> Dear deluded Indian professional troll.
> 
> You never end amusing us with your useless low quality posts you have been repeating to quickly grasps some low ego indians attentions for a ego boost.
> 
> I have already debunked your useless posts.. here it is again..



OMG. You just broke the Dumbest person on earth world record.

There has been no SM-2 missile that can be launched from Mk-13 launcher. The SM-2 missile requires Mk-41 launcher and RAN frigates have been upgraded with Mk-41 launchers.

The video you posted proves nothing. 

The Mk-13 launcher you would get is for launching the Harpoon.

SM-2 can not be fired from Mk-13 launchers. It has got to be complemented with Mk-41 launchers. Period.

Tell me who the deluded troll is.

The whole thread is based on stupid assumptions.

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## Windjammer

deckingraj said:


> There are many other patterns as well but i am in no mood to derail the thread...However lets get some facts straight
> 
> - Indeed US is giving you these frigates in Good will gesture...I do not see anything wrong in it however fact won't change... It is US gratitude for your role in WOT
> - Brahmos is indeed a class of its own.... Obviously the makers of these missiles have lot of confidence in this system capabilities... other wise a platform that was primarily intended for Anti-Ship role would not have seen so manu variants
> 
> * Ship launched, Anti-Ship variant (operational)
> * Ship launched, Land attack variant (operational)
> * Land launched, Land attack variant (operational)
> * Land launched, Anti-Ship variant (existence not confirmed)
> * Air launched, Anti-Ship variant (development)
> * Air launched, Land attack variant (development) [6]
> * Submarine launched, Anti-Ship variant (development)
> * Submarine launched, Land attack variant (development)
> 
> - Nothing is invincible....Nothing was nothing would be....Even the makers don't claim a 100% kill probability, however Brahmos definitely increases the kill probablity by leaps and bounds as compared to its other counterparts.... Didn't you provided a link where it was claimed that F-16 had a lock on Raptor??? However can you vouch that every time a F-16 can get a lock on raptor??? Obviously no...Similarly Brahmos is far more deadly than its counterparts and is definitely gives you an edge over your enemy...Now both are overstatements
> 
> - Enemy is doomed because we have brahmos
> - Brahmos is nothing but a low stealth supersonic missile that can be taken down easily...
> 
> In the end measures and counter measures will keep evolving...It is nothing but a never ending game...


Aircraft, anti aircraft, Tank, anti tank, Personell, anti personell devices 
Ballistic Missile v ABM etc etc. Fair dos each to his own.


> No need to put offtopic rubbish and if you think gorkshov is not going to increase IN capabilities by leaps and bounds then all i can say is that you are living in fools paradise...


You could have oozed with your advise much earlier however relatively speaking it's in context with the impending Frigates since it was also decommissioned and not being built from scratch and is being topped up with systems and gadgetry just as the subject.


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## deckingraj

Windjammer said:


> Aircraft, anti aircraft, Tank, anti tank, Personell, anti personell devices
> 
> Ballistic Missile v ABM etc etc. Fair dos each to his own.



Now we are talking...



> You could have oozed with your advise much earlier however relatively speaking it's in context with the impending Frigates since it was also decommissioned and not being built from scratch and is being topped up with systems and gadgetry just as the subject.



It's in context??? Care to explain how??? We are not discussing India Pakistan acquisition of decommissioned weapon systems... and neither any one is challenging that you will get these frigates on time at same cost etc or not...

Just for the records Gorkshov is way different ball game than these frigates...anyways not the right time or thread to discuss it...

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## Peregrine

jagjitnatt said:


> OMG. You just broke the Dumbest person on earth world record.
> 
> There has been no SM-2 missile that can be launched from Mk-13 launcher. The SM-2 missile requires Mk-41 launcher and RAN frigates have been upgraded with Mk-41 launchers.
> 
> The video you posted proves nothing.
> 
> The Mk-13 launcher you would get is for launching the Harpoon.
> 
> SM-2 can not be fired from Mk-13 launchers. It has got to be complemented with Mk-41 launchers. Period.
> 
> Tell me who the deluded troll is.
> 
> The whole thread is based on stupid assumptions.


Hi
we would be talking like you if we had limited approach to Wikipedia only
"*SM-2 is compatible with the MK 13 and MK 26 rail launchers and the MK 41
Vertical Launching System"*
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...ocuments/content/rtn_rms_ps_sm2_datasheet.pdf
Please to go through this link carefully
talk about Delusions

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## Myth_buster_1

jagjitnatt said:


> OMG. You just broke the Dumbest person on earth world record.
> 
> 1) There has been no SM-2 missile that can be launched from Mk-13 launcher. The SM-2 missile requires Mk-41 launcher and RAN frigates have been upgraded with Mk-41 launchers.
> The video you posted proves nothing.
> The Mk-13 launcher you would get is for launching the Harpoon.
> 
> 2) SM-2 can not be fired from Mk-13 launchers. Period.
> 
> 3) Tell me who the deluded troll is.
> 
> The whole thread is based on stupid assumptions.




Here you deserve that award after you have clearly proved that indeed you are not just a troll and a low quality poster but dumbest of all. 



1) I hope you have two functional eyes let along a brain.
Watch the video again very carefully because you need to be very attentive! 















I will post this news with the biggest font this forum has just for you so that you can read without having any difficulties. 

Navy tests new SM-2 missile
source: australianaviation.com.au 
*The RAN has successfully test fired a Raytheon SM-2 surface-to-air missile from the FFG frigate HMAS Melbourne during a test at the off the East Australian Exercise Area off Jervis Bay on the NSW south coast.*

The SM-2 will provide the RAN with an enhanced medium to long range anti-air capability, and has been introduced on the four remaining Adelaide class frigates as part of the FFG-UP program over the past few years.

&#8220;HMAS Melbourne is now equipped with two modern missile systems to combat anti-ship missiles and aircraft,&#8221; said Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science, Greg Combet in a statement. &#8220;The missile was fired from the missile launching system that has recently been modified as part of the project to replace the SM-1 in the upgraded FFG. This firing is a significant achievement and provides confidence in the ship&#8217;s updated weapon control system.&#8221;

The FFG-UP program was previously considered a &#8216;program of risk&#8217; but has turned the corner in the past couple of years following the intervention of Minister Combet and an improved working relationship between industry and Defence. All four vessels have been re-delivered to the RAN.


The MK41 installed in RAN FFGs will be equipped with quad cells to house 4 ESSM in each of the 8 MK41 cells.

This is ESSM launched from MK41.


2) OH really? says the guy with peanut size brain with weak eye sight and the lack of comprehension ability. 

Source: Raytheon 


> SM-2 is compatible with the* MK 13 *and MK 26 rail launchers and the MK 41 Vertical Launching System.
> Launchers
> &#8211; MK 26 and *MK 13 Rail*
> &#8211; MK 41 VLS



3) be proud that you have achieved one thing in this forum and it is the dumbest award.

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## Myth_buster_1

ALEXANDRIA, Va., May 05, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- VSE Corporation /quotes/comstock/15*!vsec/quotes/nls/vsec (VSEC 39.19, -0.75, -1.88%) recently hosted a meeting between the United States and Pakistan Navies to solidify an agreement for the transfer of the USS McInerney, which is scheduled to be decommissioned this summer.

Pakistan Navy Captain Abdul Rehman signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance to initiate the ship transfer. Captain Rehman is assigned to the Embassy of Pakistan as Attache for Defense Procurement (Air Force/Navy). U.S. Navy Captain Chris Pietras represented the Naval Sea Systems Command in accepting the offer.

For VSE's Naval Ship Transfer and Repair Team, the agreement translates into a contract covering training responsibilities. VSE will support U.S. Navy training of the 248 Pakistani crew members, beginning this month, until the ship is officially transferred around the end of August. In the near future, VSE will develop a work package for approval by the Pakistan Navy.* After the transfer, VSE will manage a shipyard industrial availability contract to make ship repairs that will extend its life.* During the availability the VSE's Ship Training and Assistance Team (STAT) will provide hands on maintenance and operational training for the Pakistan crew.

In January 2011, the VSE STAT is scheduled to conduct underway training for the crew, with a final evaluation by the U.S. Navy Afloat Training Group on the ability of the Pakistan crew to operate the ship and equipment in a safe-to-sail manner. Afterwards, the crew will sail the ship home to Karachi, Pakistan. A small contingent of the VSE Transfer Assistance Team personnel will accompany the ship and provide additional underway training.

VSE CEO Maurice "Mo" Gauthier said, "Together, with our customers and the highly experienced and competent team we have assembled, we are confident that we will meet and exceed the requirements of this allied mission. We look forward to the challenge."

"Our expertise with training, equipment repair, and working in tandem with both the U.S. and Pakistan Navies will be a rewarding experience and great collaborative opportunity," added Mike Hamerly, President of International Group.


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## Myth_buster_1

US Navy Flight Tests New Raytheon SM-2 Target Detecting Device
News >> Missiles & Munitions >> Development


Released on Thursday, January 22, 2009

U.S. Navy Flight Tests New Raytheon SM-2 Target Detecting Device

POINT MUGU, Calif., Jan. 22, 2009 /PRNewswire/ -- *The U.S. Navy flight tested Raytheon Company's new Standard Missile-2 target detecting device. The SM-2 Block IIIB flight was the lowest altitude intercept to date using the new device, which enhances the SM-2's ability to detect and destroy threats.*

The missile was fired from USS STERETT (DDG-104) during combined combat system ship qualification trials. The test flights included additional SM-2 Block IIIA, SM-2 Block IIIB and SM-2 Block III missiles. The missiles engaged multiple targets under stressing conditions representing a variety of threat scenarios.

"These tests demonstrate the reliability and accuracy of SM-2 as it continues to evolve," said Ron Shields, Raytheon Missile Systems Standard Missile program director. "The SM-2's ability to successfully employ this new target detecting device against challenging targets enhances the missile's usefulness to the warfighter."
*
SM-2 Block IIIB is an anti-air warfare weapon system deployed by the U.S. Navy for long-range ship self defense and has a range of 90 nautical miles (167 km or 103 statute miles). The SM-2 Block IIIB missile adds an infrared seeker to its proven guidance section to defeat target countermeasures and provide enhanced performance against supersonic, high-G maneuvering sea skimming air-to-surface missiles.*

"This test once again proves why SM-2 is the U.S. Navy's front line self-defense weapon," said Kirk Johnson, U.S. Navy's Standard Missile program manager. "SM-2 provides the warfighter with the most modern solution against air-to-surface missiles, and it continues to evolve to meet our future needs."


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Growler clarified in the beginning that his assumption was that Pakistan would equip the FFG's with the MK-13 and SM2 combo. 

Now you can disagree with that and point out that there is no information on what sorts of weapons fit Pakistan will select, but no need to drag it out beyond that.

If there are credible reasons why you think the SM2 will not be available to Pakistan, or why the Brahmos is 'invincible' feel free to provide them, but move on from arguing over the fact that the weapons system for the FFG's have not been announced yet.

P.S: Stop calling people names, trolls and using large size fonts please. Agree to disagree and move on.

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## cabatli_53

Growler said:


> In a scenario where 8 FFGs are operating together in PAK small territorial waters of Arabian sea it will be quite hard for many or some bharamos to slip through.
> Turkey has also offered Pakistan their GENES&#304;S Combat Management System.
> A state-of-the-art combat management system to quickly, efficiently and effectively detect, identify, track and engage air, surface and subsurface
> threats across multiple radar and surveillance systems for optimum awareness and decision making.




According the latest issue of Turkish S&H magazine(04.05.2010), Havelsan has agreed on USA to modernizate the Perry class friagates that Pakistan navy will take delivery !!!

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## Jigs

cabatli_53 said:


> According the latest issue of Turkish S&H magazine(04.05.2010), Havelsan has agreed on USA to modernizate the Perry class friagates that Pakistan navy will take delivery !!!



That is great news. I am guessing it will be the genesis program that Havelsan worked with Raytheon on.


nvm you posted the video. 

That is great though. More cooperation with our Pakistani brothers.


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## cabatli_53

Jigs said:


> That is great news. I am guessing it will be the genesis program that Havelsan worked with Raytheon on.
> 
> 
> http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/rtnwcm/groups/public/documents/datasheet/rtn_ids_prod_genesis.pdf



Genesis technology has been fully developed by Havelsan but It is a USA designed warship which Havelsan aspired to modernizate and USA made missiles that Genesis will command so USA jumped our technology in to export it togather with Turkey !!!


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## Jigs

cabatli_53 said:


> Genesis technology has been fully developed by Havelsan but It is a USA designed warship which Havelsan aspired to modernizate so USA jumped our technology in to export it togather with Turkey !!!



Ah. Did the U.S. frigates undergo this program also ?


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## cabatli_53

BTW, Havelsan-Aselsan have made additional works on Genesis and upgraded this technology to fire every type Vertical launch Missile system to integrate on current and future Naval platforms of Turkey and ally countries...

That's the additional system which provide Genesis to fire Vertical launchable missile systems. It is called like Genesis-VLS...


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## cabatli_53

Jigs said:


> Ah. Did the U.S. frigates undergo this program also ?



Yes, It is also possible, If Havelsan accept releasing source-codes of Genesis for USA but I think USA will use Genesis modernizated Perry frigates for export markets !!!


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## Thomas

*G class frigate*
G class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

G class is one of the frigate classes of the Turkish Navy. They are extensively modernized versions of ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class guided-missile frigates, mainly designed for air defense with a weapons configuration that is optimized for general warfare. A total of eight G-class frigates are currently operated by the Turkish Navy. They are named as TCG Gaziantep (F 490), TCG Giresun (F 491), TCG Gemlik (F 492), TCG Gelibolu (F 493), TCG G&#246;k&#231;eada (F 494), TCG Gediz (F 495), TCG G&#246;kova (F 496) and TCG G&#246;ksu (F 497).

G class frigates have undergone a major modernization program which included the retrofitting of a Turkish digital combat management system named GENESIS (Gemi Entegre Sava&#351; &#304;dare Sistemi). The first GENESIS upgraded ship was delivered in 2007, and the last delivery is scheduled for 2011.

*The GENESIS advanced combat management system includes the following characteristics and abilities:

* A modern and reliable system;
* High performance;
* Open architecture;
* Capacity of tracking more than 1,000 tactical targets;
* Modern digital sensor data fusion;
* Automatic threat evaluation;
* Weapon engagement opportunities;
* Link-16/22 system integration.
*
*The modernization program also includes:

* The addition of an 8-cell Mk-41 VLS for Evolved Sea Sparrow, including the upgrade of the Mk-92 fire control system by Lockheed Martin;
* The retrofitting of a new advanced 3D air search radar;
* The addition of a new long range sonar.*

The Mk-41 VLS will be fitted in front of the Mk.13 launchers, similar to their installation on the Adelaide class frigates of the Royal Australian Navy, which are Australian-built derivatives of the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates.

The "short hull" ex-Perry class frigates that are currently being operated by the Turkish Navy were modified with the ASIST landing platform system at the Istanbul Naval Shipyard, so that they can accommodate the S-70B Seahawk helicopters.

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## Myth_buster_1

@ cabatli_53
bro do you have any information about Genesis CMS ability to detect short range ballistic missiles at final phase of flight and guide SM-2 block 4 which has capability to destroy the BM at final phase of flight!?

another question. What type of 3d radar will the Turkish FFGs be upgraded with? Kindly provide the specs. and how much does the GENESIS program costs? will it also include the new 3d radar if PN FFGs are also upgraded with it?

thanks


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## Jigs

The GENESIS system guarantees optimization and effectiveness in the naval combat management. The GENESIS system enhances the ships' situational awareness and accelerates the defense capabilities, decreasing the detect-to-engage reaction time by more than half.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Rayth...FFG+7+Fleet+Modernization+With...-a0198657040 Full article here.


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## Jigs

Growler said:


> @ cabatli_53
> bro do you have any information about Genesis CMS ability to detect short range ballistic missiles at final phase of flight and guide SM-2 block 4 which has capability to destroy the BM at final phase of flight!?



http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rtnwcm/groups/public/documents/content/rtn09_bus_genesis_pdf.pdf

This PDF gives a good breakdown of capabilities between the original and Genesis.



Also here is a Janes article about it. 




Under the G-Class Frigate CMS (combat management system Modernisation Programme (G-GCMP), the Turkish Naval Forces Command is implementing a comprehensive combat management, fire control and tactical datalink modernisation for its eight ex-USN FFG-7 frigates, now known locally as the G-class.
Central to this effort is the introduction of the GENESIS (Gemi Entegre Savas; Idare Sistemi) open architecture CMS, a system nurtured within the navy's own Software Development Centre in Golcuk then subsequently migrated to Havelsan for further development and production.
According to Havelsan, GENESIS modernises and expands the C2 functionality offered by the legacy FFG-7 tactical data handling system, while at the same time leveraging its original foundation to interface with ship's sensors, weapons and platform data. GENESIS has been developed by Havelsan, under the sponsorship of the navy and the Turkish Undersecretariat of Defence (SSM), as a 'common core' architecture to meet a range of ship- and shore-based requirements; other variants are being developed for the MILGEM corvette project and land-based command, control, communication, computer and intelligence (C4I) centres.
As part of the G-GCMP upgrade, the new GENESIS CMS is intended to significantly reduce anti-ship missile defence reaction time (and so increase the weapon engagement window), improve situational awareness and support tactical decision-making by exploiting modern COTS computers and network technology. Key features include automatic detection and tracking, automated reaction functionality, a multiilink capability and embedded onboard training software.


Havelsan points out that the legacy FFG-7 combat direction system suffers from a series of shortcomings including: an obsolete hardware design that comprises performance and reliability; limited track capacity (64 targets) as a result of the limited memory (386 kb) of the old AN/UYK-7 Weapon System Processor (WSP); manual tracking of air and surface targets, limiting the accuracy and number of tracks; an outdated, low-resolution human machine interface; manual decoy launching capability only; no integration of the Phalanx CIWS (operates in autonomous Mode only); and limitations in processing and communication result in slow detect-to-engage times. The company also points out that the legacy system has limited future growth capacity due to its central processor architecture.
GENESIS runs on a redundant Gigabit Ethernet LAN and interfaces with all weapon, sensor and platform systems through common subsystem interface units (SIU). A central interface unit replaces both weapon control consoles (WCCs) and is interfaced via an SIU to GENESIS, enabling all WCC functions to be performed by GENESIS consoles.
The WSP is replaced with an open and distributed architecture CMS that runs on modern COTS processors and workstations. While the Mk 92 Mod 2 fire-control system remains, the UYK-7 computer that was used as the WSP is reconfigured as a cold backup replacement of the Mk 92 WCP.
The GENESIS implementation on board the Gaziantep class sees the original Command Integration Capability equipment stripped out, with all legacy OJ-197 and OJ-194 consoles removed together with the WCCs associated with the Mk 92 fire-control system. In their place, the GENESIS fit for G-GCMP introduces eight operator consoles with dual flat panel displays; two tactical consoles with side-by-side displays; and a large screen display. Additional features include integrated video distribution with multiple topside cameras, customised commanding officer and bridge displays, and digital data recording.
According to Havelsan, GENESIS is able to manage up to 1,000 tracks, and is able to perform automatic detection, tracking and correlation with multiple radars. As well as the SPS-49 radar, the system also integrates the Decca navigation radar, IFF (identification, friend-or-foe) and Phalanx CIWS. In the latter case, Phalanx can operate in either standalone or remote modes controlled by GENESIS, offering a capability to be used against air and surface targets at short range. Also, GENESIS enables Phalanx to engage a Mk 92 target.
Harpoon is integrated into GENESIS using a six-word direct interface. Background information can be supplied to the system automatically, reducing engagement planning time and improving accuracy.
Chaff/infrared decoy control functionality is embedded in GENESIS. This enables automatic threat identification, decoy launch and speed/course to steer recommendations to maximise effectiveness.
A new MilSOFT-developed Multi Purpose Tactical Datalink System (MP-TDLS) is also being implemented. MP-TDLS provides a seamless Link 11/16 capability, with potential future growth to Link 22.
The first GENESIS fit to TCG Gemlik was completed in mid-2007 and a further three ships have since received the system.


http://ihracat.ssm.gov.tr/TR/Pages/20091226_janes.aspx


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## cabatli_53

Growler said:


> @ cabatli_53
> bro do you have any information about Genesis CMS ability to detect short range ballistic missiles at final phase of flight and guide SM-2 block 4 which has capability to destroy the BM at final phase of flight!?



Bro,

I think The detecting the ballistic missiles are interested in the radar capabilities of naval assets. Genesis has been upgraded to launch every type verical launcable missile system including SM-2 but If Perry do not have a radar, which is capable of detecting-tracking ballistic missiles to guide SM-2 to engage, Any type electronics in World can not do anything for that. CMS's are the intelligent softwares and user interfaces asselerating the agreement time and direct naval officiers to manage the ship armaments effectively.

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## cabatli_53

Growler said:


> @ cabatli_53
> 
> another question. What type of 3d radar will the Turkish FFGs be upgraded with? Kindly provide the specs. and how much does the GENESIS program costs? will it also include the new 3d radar if PN FFGs are also upgraded with it?
> 
> thanks



Bro,

3D radars are about the demand of costumers. Havelsan engineers can easily integrate every type Naval 3D radars to Genesis. Turkey has selected Thales Smart-S 3D radars to modernizate Perry class frigates with Genesis. The modernization includes MK-41 Vertical Launch system and ESSM missiles as well...

The estimate cost is kept secret bro. Unfortunately, I can not help you about price...

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## Frankenstein

*I really don't understand one thing, if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???
*

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## Myth_buster_1

Frankenstein said:


> *I really don't understand one thing, if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???
> *



Dude the Indians like to live in their own bubble of mythical world. According to them everything in their hands are the best equipments in their world and even the equipments they buy from Isreal are some how according to them superior to american counter part. 
The Brahmos is a export variant of P-800 that was developed in 80s. The Americans are always ahead of anything the Russians have developed. The widely used Moskit mach 3 AShM by Russians developed in 1970s had a counter missile by Americans in that same era and even the variants of SM-1 was capable to destroy the Moskit missile. The Indians some how believe Brahmos has no counter which is quite absurd and funny. Once the SM-2 is deployed by PN it will be one of the best ship launched surface to air missile in south asia. Lets hope the PN gets SM-2 block IIIB variant which has dual radar guided and IR seeker.

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## kashith

Growler said:


> Dude the Indians like to live in their own bubble of mythical world. According to them everything in their hands are the best equipments in their world and even the equipments they buy from Isreal are some how according to them superior to american counter part.
> The Brahmos is a export variant of P-800 that was developed in 80s. The Americans are always ahead of anything the Russians have developed. The widely used Moskit mach 3 AShM by Russians developed in 1970s had a counter missile by Americans in that same era and even the variants of SM-1 was capable to destroy the Moskit missile. The Indians some how believe Brahmos has no counter which is quite absurd and funny. Once the SM-2 is deployed by PN it will be one of the best ship launched surface to air missile in south asia. Lets hope the PN gets SM-2 block IIIB variant which has dual radar guided and IR seeker.



even if you will get sm2 India can buy sm3 anyday....with aegis as well..You will get may be a dozen sm2 we will hundreds...We have the dollars baby....


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## PracticalGuy

Pakistan Navy's SM-2 will never be an answer to Brahmos... 
why? because by the time PN gets SM-2, Brahmos will be upgraded to HYPERSONIC speeds... 

Now ..How do I know? Just like How GROWLER knows about PN getting SM-2..

Wishful thinking...

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## Myth_buster_1

kashith said:


> even if you will get sm2 India can buy sm3 anyday....with aegis as well..You will get may be a dozen sm2 we will hundreds...We have the dollars baby....



 But baby How are you planning to integrate SM-3 in Indian Frigates and Destroyers which dont even have MK41! Will Indian Navy dump all the Barak missiles in indian ocean and and refit SM-3s with new VLS MK41 and sensors radars etc? Use some logic!


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## Myth_buster_1

PracticalGuy said:


> Pakistan Navy's SM-2 will never be an answer to Brahmos...
> why? because by the time PN gets SM-2, Brahmos will be upgraded to HYPERSONIC speeds...
> 
> Now ..How do I know? Just like How GROWLER knows about PN getting SM-2..
> 
> Wishful thinking...



I see your post as nothing but childish and a knee jerk reaction! The SM-2 will be inducted along with 8 FFGs by 2014. 
My logic is fact because the FFGs employs MK13 launchers specifically made for Standard Missiles and thus SM-2 will full fill PN surface to air missile role. While your logic does not make any sense. the Hypersonic version of Brahmos will require new airframe that is resistant to high speeds etc and not logical to upgrade existing Brahmos to hypersonic unless its just a paint job. 
But for now PN will have a great and capable counter for Brahmos.


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## PracticalGuy

Growler said:


> I see your post as nothing but childish and a knee jerk reaction! The SM-2 will be inducted along with 8 FFGs by 2014.
> My logic is fact because the FFGs employs MK13 launchers specifically made for Standard Missiles and thus SM-2 will full fill PN surface to air missile role. While your logic does not make any sense. the Hypersonic version of Brahmos will require new airframe that is resistant to high speeds etc and not logical to upgrade existing Brahmos to hypersonic unless its just a paint job.
> But for now PN will have a great and capable counter for Brahmos.



you talking about being childish? I thought thats the sole reason why THIS thread was created in the first place...

see only time will tell if "your Logic" or "my logic" becomes a "Fact" ..In the mean while enjoy this about Hypersonic Brahmos by 2014..yes 2014...

From 2007 news ..

BrahMos to develop first hypersonic cruise missile in 5 years - Pravda.Ru



> Pravda.Ru: Today Armed Forces in the world do not have hypersonic cruise missiles. How is your work on the hypersonic cruise missile?
> 
> Dr. Pillai: Joint Venture is working on the hypersonic cruise missile and we are keen to develop the worlds first hypersonic cruise missile. All legal and organizational matters between the governments and the companies-participants of the two nations are being formulated. A joint team is formed and we have jointly arrived at the technical specifications. In 5-6 years the missile will be ready.
> 
> One should not stop on todays achievements. Yes, today we have a missile with unique characteristics, but we also look into the future. The work on the hypersonic missile is not just the race for technical superiority. This is also a marketing instrument. Our customers see that we are working on the cutting edge technologies and they know they can trust the products we offer.


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## rubyjackass

Growler said:


> I see your post as nothing but childish and a knee jerk reaction! The SM-2 will be inducted along with 8 FFGs by 2014.
> My logic is fact because the FFGs employs MK13 launchers specifically made for Standard Missiles and thus SM-2 will full fill PN surface to air missile role. While your logic does not make any sense. the Hypersonic version of Brahmos will require new airframe that is resistant to high speeds etc and not logical to upgrade existing Brahmos to hypersonic unless its just a paint job.
> But for now PN will have a great and capable counter for Brahmos.


So for $73 mil, you are saying Pak is buying a frigate with all the missiles and armament?

Please take a look here.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/intelandterror/article_1186256.php/India_to_buy_three_stealth_frigates_from_Russia
$332mil is what India spent on each Russian frigate.


> Rs.51.14 billion for the vessels and Rs.4 billion for 'additional equipment' to be fitted on them.
> Mukherjee did not state what this additional equipment would be, but past experience would suggest this would be spent on the Barak anti-missile system that is being jointly developed by Israel and India.


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## Thomas

PracticalGuy said:


> Pakistan Navy's SM-2 will never be an answer to Brahmos...
> why? because by the time PN gets SM-2, Brahmos will be upgraded to HYPERSONIC speeds...
> 
> Now ..How do I know? Just like How GROWLER knows about PN getting SM-2..
> 
> Wishful thinking...



With a mach 4+ speed ESSM is highly effective against the Mach 2.8 Supersonic Brahmos. Against the hypersonic version if the Brahmos. If it was heading inbound it should still be effective. It's effectiveness would decrease though depending on the angle of attack.

It would be better for Pakistan to have the ESSM


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A decent upgrade for our our Frigate fleet ... we need help ...

We are just ... hmm what you call it ... 

Un equiped navy ...  ... 

Untill we get the 8 Frigates from China
and those 6 fom US , our navy is in bad shape ....

Its almost impossible to cover the sea and border lines 

The orions have helped some what but you really need ships and destroyers to command the sea shores of your country...

Hope fully we get those *4 more F22p* and *4 Type 0845* chinese frigates it would be life saver

It would be ideal for Chinese missiles on these ships 

The US friagtes are ... just ok .. for few years of service may be odd 10 years
and may be with US missiles on these ships it would be idea

But ... we do need those subs as well ... 

Hopefully we will get those urgently needed 8 ships and 3 subs soon


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## Siddiqui A

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> A decent upgrade for our our Frigate fleet ... we need help ...
> 
> We are just ... hmm what you call it ...
> 
> Un equiped navy ...  ...
> 
> Untill we get the 8 Frigates from China
> and those 6 fom US , our navy is in bad shape ....
> 
> Its almost impossible to cover the sea and border lines
> 
> The orions have helped some what but you really need ships and destroyers to command the sea shores of your country...
> 
> Hope fully we get those *4 more F22p* and *4 Type 0845* chinese frigates it would be life saver
> 
> It would be ideal for Chinese missiles on these ships
> 
> The US friagtes are ... just ok .. for few years of service may be odd 10 years
> and may be with US missiles on these ships it would be idea
> 
> But ... we do need those subs as well ...
> 
> Hopefully we will get those urgently needed 8 ships and 3 subs soon



another crappy thread....brahmoshhh is crap...garbage....like someone earlier said if its tht great of a missle why dont the russians have it in service....im sure even if the brahmosshh is stuck on one of theor frigates and lauched its crap *** pinpoint ability will completely fail to even hit a target.....i ask the bhartiz here show me a proof of a brahmosh being launched from a ship and hitting its target after completing its declared range and speed....oh and for those who say its still in testing stage and or is nearly being deployed....then please go back to your hole and come reply after that....and for the pakistani bruvz ...lissen guys lets talk about something they already have, deplyed and tested....no need tow waste time over their crap nuclear technology which their own scientists doubt....now please bhartiz dnt wine and wine over my last statement because i really dont wana waste time pulling those 2 mth old articles out from you own news channels and websites....so please ....peaceee


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## SABRE

Growler said:


> Did you only read the title?
> 
> Read the descriptions! It has a primary role against air threats such as Brahmos and secondary role against surface targets.



When we say "role against xyz weapon" (especially missiles) it is meant as counter measure and not counter-part. Meaning the "role against BrahMos" can only be played by anti-cruise missile system. SM-2 can only be seen as counter-part in some ways.

While BrahMos can carry nuclear warhead, SM-2 cannot. If Pakistan attempts any such experiment then we won't even have it as a counter-part in future.


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## chachachoudhary

Growler said:


> FFG requires AShM SAM torpedo like any other frigates.
> Its already clear that AShM will be Harpoon while the MK-13 launching magazine is specifically made for Standard Missiles. The only option is to go at Standard Missile 2. And yes PN will get it.



Okay, I am ready to fully believe that Brahmos will be dead in its launcher by just the sight of SM-2 on PN frigate. Yes, Brahmos will waive white flag and will refuse to leave its launching tube, agreed.

Question here is, is Pakistan getting SM-2?

Please provide a source stating that PN is getting SM-2 missiles.

If there is no source, this thread is worthless.

IT IS JUST LIKE SAYING INDIAN AIR FORCE F-22s CAN DESTROY PAKISTAN IN A COUPLE OF HOURS.

Question here is not if F-22s can, but is India getting F-22s?

I hope my Pakistani friends get the point.

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## Myth_buster_1

PracticalGuy said:


> you talking about being childish? I thought thats the sole reason why THIS thread was created in the first place...
> 
> see only time will tell if "your Logic" or "my logic" becomes a "Fact" ..In the mean while enjoy this about Hypersonic Brahmos by 2014..yes 2014...
> 
> From 2007 news ..
> 
> BrahMos to develop first hypersonic cruise missile in 5 years - Pravda.Ru


The Indians have tendency of over exaggerating everything about time frame induction of all the projects such as LCA, Arjun, Brahmos. Even the Brahmos is behind schedule, their might be some possibility that hypersonic version test may happen in 3-4 years from now and has to clear FOC which may not happen anytime soon and most probably the induction may start no earlier then 6-10 years from now. Indian military has yet to fully induct brahmos of all versions and sources suggest India may test 1st air launched version later this year and induction may start in 2012. 

Hypersonic versions are not invincible either, this missile can be shot down on a heads on course.


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## Myth_buster_1

rubyjackass said:


> So for $73 mil, you are saying Pak is buying a frigate with all the missiles and armament?
> 
> Please take a look here.
> 
> India to buy three stealth frigates from Russia - Monsters and Critics
> $332mil is what India spent on each Russian frigate.



Read the post #1 very very carefully! 

78 million dollars is for the intensive refurbishment which will extend its life for the Frigate and crew training.


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## Myth_buster_1

SABRE said:


> When we say "role against xyz weapon" (especially missiles) it is meant as counter measure and not counter-part. Meaning the "role against BrahMos" can only be played by anti-cruise missile system. SM-2 can only be seen as counter-part in some ways.
> 
> While BrahMos can carry nuclear warhead, SM-2 cannot. If Pakistan attempts any such experiment then we won't even have it as a counter-part in future.



Let me clarify that if PN acquires SM-2 block IIIA/B it will have a very effective capability to engage supersonic missiles such as brahmos and secondary capability to engage surface targets as well.


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## Myth_buster_1

chachachoudhary said:


> Okay, I am ready to fully believe that Brahmos will be dead in its launcher by just the sight of SM-2 on PN frigate. Yes, Brahmos will waive white flag and will refuse to leave its launching tube, agreed.
> Question here is, is Pakistan getting SM-2?
> Please provide a source stating that PN is getting SM-2 missiles.
> If there is no source, this thread is worthless.
> IT IS JUST LIKE SAYING INDIAN AIR FORCE F-22s CAN DESTROY PAKISTAN IN A COUPLE OF HOURS.
> Question here is not if F-22s can, but is India getting F-22s?
> I hope my Pakistani friends get the point.



Very immature post and logics. 
Btw F-22 is not even for export yet.
and its amazing the indians here are applying F-22 analogies with SM-2.


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## LonglivedChinPak

Brahmos a tiger paper and Israeli tech supposedly missile bullet which has never been tested in war situation and thus not battle proven. The C 802 fielded in the F 22 frigate has damaged an Israeli Frigate with its Barak anti missile switch on and off.


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## deckingraj

Frankenstein said:


> *I really don't understand one thing, if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???
> *



Would you mind if i spin your argument a bit and say how come JF-17 not inducted by China?? Does that mean JF-17 is a junk like Brahmos??

Understand the basic difference when it comes to Brahmos...It is a JV and as per MCTR its range cannot exceed 300 KM...Now in Indian subcontinent especially in Indo-Pak scenario this range is good enough but not for Russia...SO what's the point of Inducting something which is of practically no use to you.......However the technology mastered will be used in other programs....

I hope i answered it as per your satisfaction..

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## Myth_buster_1

deckingraj said:


> Understand the basic difference when it comes to Brahmos...It is a JV and as per MCTR its range cannot exceed 300 KM...Now in Indian subcontinent especially in Indo-Pak scenario this range is good enough but not for Russia...SO what's the point of Inducting something which is of practically no use to you.......However the technology mastered will be used in other programs....
> I hope i answered it as per your satisfaction..


Btw its Missile Technology Control Regime (MTRC) and Brahmos is a export *variant* of P-800 developed in 80s by USSR. 
And yes, MTCR prohibits export of Missile technologies that exceeds 300KM range and Brahmos' range is purposely modified by the Russians them self so that the project is not violation of MTCR. 
Russia is more then capable enough on their own if they are interested in extending the missile's range on their own.


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## Kinetic

Growler said:


> In Aug 2010 first of the eight FFG will be handed over to PN and will go through intensive refurbishments with increased capabilities such as retaining of MK13 launcher that will give the frigate the capability to use missiles again.
> The foreigner operators of FFGs such as Australia and Turkey under a nearly billion dollars program are getting their frigates upgraded that will give them parity with most of the modern frigates today.
> 
> I do not want to go into detail about FFG program but the armament that will be acquired for it such as SM-2.
> 
> Those pics from raytheon is SM-2 Blcock IV not the one having onboard Perry frigates.
> 
> In short words SM-2 will give PN the capability to engage air threats such as sub-super sonic AShM CM, aircraft, helicopters and a secondary capability to engage surface targets such as corvettes and Frigates.
> 4 or 5 of these hurled towards a enemy's frigate at speed mach 3.5 fallowed by a Harpoon will have a devastating effect!
> 
> 
> A surface target destroyed by a SM-2
> YouTube - SM2 VLS launch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its a hypothetical situation and it may happen.


LOL 

*Learn something first. SM-1 being removed from the frigates those Pakistan is getting. *

Those pics are of SM-2 Block IV not the one onboard Perry. lol 

There is no way SM-2 can face Brahmos because of its speed and stealth.

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## gubbi

Frankenstein said:


> *I really don't understand one thing, if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???
> *






Growler said:


> Dude the Indians like to live in their own bubble of mythical world. According to them everything in their hands are the best equipments in their world and even the equipments they buy from Isreal are some how according to them superior to american counter part.
> The Brahmos is a export variant of P-800 that was developed in 80s. The Americans are always ahead of anything the Russians have developed. The widely used Moskit mach 3 AShM by Russians developed in 1970s had a counter missile by Americans in that same era and even the variants of SM-1 was capable to destroy the Moskit missile. The Indians some how believe Brahmos has no counter which is quite absurd and funny. Once the SM-2 is deployed by PN it will be one of the best ship launched surface to air missile in south asia. Lets hope the PN gets SM-2 block IIIB variant which has dual radar guided and IR seeker.



*Russian Navy*
According to sources the BrahMos could be fitted to the updated Gorshkov class of frigates which will be entering the Russian navy soon.[28] The defense ministry reported that due to the size and hull specifications of the BrahMos, few if any of its new ships will be able to accommodate it.[29]

*Yakhont / Oniks:*
The P-800 Oniks (Russian: &#1055;-800 &#1054;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1089;, alternatively termed Yakhont (&#1071;&#1093;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090 for export markets; "Oniks" is onyx, and "Yakhont" is ruby or sapphire in English) is a Russian (former Soviet) supersonic anti-ship cruise missile developed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya as a ramjet version of P-80 Zubr. Its GRAU designation is 3M55. Development reportedly started in 1983, and by 2001 allowed the launch of the missile from land, sea, air and submarine. The missile has the NATO reporting codename SS-N-26. It is reportedly a replacement for the P-270 Moskit, but possibly also for the P-700 Granit. *The P-800 was reportedly used as the basis for the joint Russian-Indian supersonic missile the PJ-10 BrahMos*.

Finally, the Russians never induct weapons developed by foreign countries, and thats why BrahMos has not yet been inducted in RN. However, considering its successful tests by the DRDO, the RN is reconsidering its long standing policy of not buying foreign military hardware and are now planning to induct BrahMos (not Yakhont) in their Gorshkov class of frigates.

Geez, people are discussing military matters without having even a simple idea what they are talking about!

For claims of SM-2's apparent efficiency against BrahMos, thats a load of malarkey!

As for the claims of SM-2 being transferred to PN, can anyone post reliable sources? Or we are just wasting time and bandwidth discussing a wishlist?

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## Myth_buster_1

Kinetic said:


> LOL
> 
> *Learn something first. SM-1 being removed from the frigates those Pakistan is getting. *
> 
> Those pics are of SM-2 Block IV not the one onboard Perry. lol
> 
> There is no way SM-2 can face Brahmos because of its speed and stealth.



And then the indians complain and whine why we call them trolls. ladies and gentlemen this above post is a very prime example of it.

Firstly when you post something on a thread that you have no idea about do a non pathetic wikipeedia research and develop some information before you make a mockery out of yourself with low quality post with no substantial informations. 

Only a trolls ask the same question over and over again that has been comprehensively answered many times! 

The FFGs for PN will be given intensive Refurbishment worth 78 million dollars which will extend the ships' life and retain all the systems that were taken off for USN cost saving plans. 
Under a PN modernization plan these frigates will be given upgradation of many systems and armament packages will be also acquired for the frigates. 
The MK13 launching system is specifically made for Standard Missile series such as SM-1 and SM-2 even with block IIIA IIIB variants and can not fire any other type of surface to air missiles. 

Those pictures of SM-2 Block IIIA/B being fired from VLS MK41 launching system. 

Here is a picture of RAN newly accquired SM-2 block IIIA being fired from upgraded HMAS Melbourne (FFG class frigate).






Dont know why indians delude themself so much and tend to live in a false mythical society to satisfy their ego.

The Americans countered Russian supersonic missiles long time ago with SM-1 series. On a heads on course even a RIM-116 can counter any super sonic missile. The SM-2 missile is a mach 3+ long range missile that can counter just about any threat.


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## Thomas

gubbi said:


> *Russian Navy*
> According to sources the BrahMos could be fitted to the updated Gorshkov class of frigates which will be entering the Russian navy soon.[28] The defense ministry reported that due to the size and hull specifications of the BrahMos, few if any of its new ships will be able to accommodate it.[29]
> 
> *Yakhont / Oniks:*
> The P-800 Oniks (Russian: &#1055;-800 &#1054;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1089;, alternatively termed Yakhont (&#1071;&#1093;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090 for export markets; "Oniks" is onyx, and "Yakhont" is ruby or sapphire in English) is a Russian (former Soviet) supersonic anti-ship cruise missile developed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya as a ramjet version of P-80 Zubr. Its GRAU designation is 3M55. Development reportedly started in 1983, and by 2001 allowed the launch of the missile from land, sea, air and submarine. The missile has the NATO reporting codename SS-N-26. It is reportedly a replacement for the P-270 Moskit, but possibly also for the P-700 Granit. *The P-800 was reportedly used as the basis for the joint Russian-Indian supersonic missile the PJ-10 BrahMos*.
> 
> Finally, the Russians never induct weapons developed by foreign countries, and thats why BrahMos has not yet been inducted in RN. However, considering its successful tests by the DRDO, the RN is reconsidering its long standing policy of not buying foreign military hardware and are now planning to induct BrahMos (not Yakhont) in their Gorshkov class of frigates.
> 
> Geez, people are discussing military matters without having even a simple idea what they are talking about!
> 
> For claims of SM-2's apparent efficiency against BrahMos, thats a load of malarkey!
> 
> As for the claims of SM-2 being transferred to PN, can anyone post reliable sources? Or we are just wasting time and bandwidth discussing a wishlist?



I think most people assume based on the fact that the refurbishment appears to a genesis upgrade. I still predict that it will be Harpoons and ESSM. The topic is worthy of a British betting pool.


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## Myth_buster_1

Kinetic said:


> LOL
> 
> *Learn something first. SM-1 being removed from the frigates those Pakistan is getting. *
> 
> Those pics are of SM-2 Block IV not the one onboard Perry. lol
> 
> There is no way SM-2 can face Brahmos because of its speed and stealth.



Refraining from replying any further to a low quality post.


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## gubbi

Thomas said:


> I think most people assume based on the fact that the refurbishment appears to a genesis upgrade. I still predict that it will be Harpoons and ESSM.


The 70mil Pak is paying is for refurbishment only - to prolong the life to the boat. PN might get harpoons, but I bet ESSM is not a part of the package! US will NOT hand over ESSM to PN which can ultimately find its way across borders into China! An important factor which shadows any US military deal with pak.


> The topic is worthy of a British betting pool.


This one, though, is more predictable than those football bets by 'dem drunk brits - footall hooligans! Go Man U.!!


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## Thomas

@ Gubbi

you are right the ships it seems are intended as anti submarine platforms. I found a recent article which I posted in separate thread.


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## Peregrine

gubbi said:


> The 70mil Pak is paying is for refurbishment only -


Hi 
You are completely distorting the facts

"McInerney that will join the fleet in January 2011 after a $65 million refurbishment to be paid for with foreign military aid provided by the US to friendly countries. A comprehensive refurbishment of the ship to also give it anti-submarine capability.

ISLAMABAD (APP) - *The government will not pay even a single dollar for the transfer of guided missile frigate from USA to Pakistan Navy*.
Clarifying news item published in a leading newspaper on 21 April 2010 pertaining to transfer of guided missile frigate from USA to a press release of Pakistan Navy says, &#8220;contrary to the fact it was stated that Pakistan will have to pay US $78 millions for the purchase of 30 years old frigate&#8221;.


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## thunder rules

deckingraj said:


> Would you mind if i spin your argument a bit and say how come JF-17 not inducted by China?? Does that mean JF-17 is a junk like Brahmos??
> 
> Understand the basic difference when it comes to Brahmos...It is a JV and as per MCTR its range cannot exceed 300 KM...Now in Indian subcontinent especially in Indo-Pak scenario this range is good enough but not for Russia...SO what's the point of Inducting something which is of practically no use to you.......However the technology mastered will be used in other programs....
> 
> I hope i answered it as per your satisfaction..



for ur kind info china has a deep planes for thunder they are evaluating it as per their own needs that is the reason they have introduced a new engine particular for thunder as we all knw that is ws 13 or 10.. surly they have a strategic planes regarding jf 17 thunder that is the reason china is spending sone much of money r&d and time on evaluation of thunders and making its performance better  u should keep in touch with latest affairs


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## Myth_buster_1

Utter low quality research wikipeedia job. 


gubbi said:


> *Yakhont / Oniks:*
> The P-800 Oniks (Russian: &#1055;-800 &#1054;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1089;, alternatively termed Yakhont (&#1071;&#1093;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090 for export markets; "Oniks" is onyx, and "Yakhont" is ruby or sapphire in English) is a Russian (former Soviet) supersonic anti-ship cruise missile developed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya as a ramjet version of P-80 Zubr. Its GRAU designation is 3M55. Development reportedly started in 1983, and by 2001 allowed the launch of the missile from land, sea, air and submarine. The missile has the NATO reporting codename SS-N-26. It is reportedly a replacement for the P-270 Moskit, but possibly also for the P-700 Granit. *The P-800 was reportedly used as the basis for the joint Russian-Indian supersonic missile the PJ-10 BrahMos*.



At least bother to do some research first. 

The original export version, the Yakhont, was available starting in 1998. *Since then, another export version has been under development called the PJ-10 Brahmos.* It is a joint venture between Russia and India's Defense Research and Development Organization. *The Brahmos is more or less a modified Oniks, adjusted to Indian requirements.*


> Finally, the Russians never induct weapons developed by foreign countries, and thats why BrahMos has not yet been inducted in RN. However, considering its successful tests by the DRDO, the RN is reconsidering its long standing policy of not buying foreign military hardware and are now planning to induct BrahMos (not Yakhont) in their Gorshkov class of frigates.


Foreigner technology?  thanks for the laugh. 



> Geez, people are discussing military matters without having even a simple idea what they are talking about!


did somebody just comment on "military matters" who just relies on wikipeedia for every this and that.  again thanks for the laugh.



> For claims of SM-2's apparent efficiency against BrahMos, thats a load of malarkey!


I know its quite hard for deluded indians to come out of their bobble. 


> As for the claims of SM-2 being transferred to PN, can anyone post reliable sources? Or we are just wasting time and bandwidth discussing a wishlist?


Then dont waist your time here go to some other forums. maybe the ego boosting fanboy bharatraksaw suites you better.


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## gubbi

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> You are completely distorting the facts
> 
> "McInerney that will join the fleet in January 2011 after a $65 million refurbishment to be paid for with foreign military aid provided by the US to friendly countries. A comprehensive refurbishment of the ship to also give it anti-submarine capability.
> 
> ISLAMABAD (APP) - *The government will not pay even a single dollar for the transfer of guided missile frigate from USA to Pakistan Navy*.
> Clarifying news item published in a leading newspaper on 21 April 2010 pertaining to transfer of guided missile frigate from USA to a press release of Pakistan Navy says, &#8220;contrary to the fact it was stated that Pakistan will have to pay US $78 millions for the purchase of 30 years old frigate&#8221;.



I am not distorting any facts, my friend. Check out this thread (*Alamgir Class Frigate*) and recheck my post. PN will NOT get the ESSM with the frigates. 70 mil is for refurbishment and not for new weapons. Like Thomas said, these boats are primarily to be used as anti-submarine platforms. These boats are still vulnerable to the IN's BrahMos, anytime!

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## Myth_buster_1

gubbi said:


> The 70mil Pak is paying is for refurbishment only - to prolong the life to the boat. PN might get harpoons, but I bet ESSM is not a part of the package! US will NOT hand over ESSM to PN which can ultimately find its way across borders into China! An important factor which shadows any US military deal with pak.



Another low quality post which reflects nothing but your narrow minded approach towards pakistan. 
The US usually accompanies its equipments to assure its in safe hands. Just to add a bit of information in your limited knowledge, Pakistan has acquired or is process of acquiring AMRAAM AIM-120C5, JDAM, new AGM-64, AGM-154, HARPOON etc despite daily Indian officials moaning US for not supplying such high tech equipments to Pakistan.


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## Myth_buster_1

Thomas said:


> you are right the ships it seems are intended as anti submarine platforms. I found a recent article which I posted in separate thread.


The refurbished frigates wont be the final configuration of PN frigates. They will most likely upgrade them to meet PN modernization program. For example P-3C have been upgraded with AShW capabilities as well as ASW. 78 Million dollars consists of crew training, intensive refurbishment for life extension, and does not includes major armaments. PN is not only limited to ASW operations hats why not all of the 8 FFGs will be ASW. Its most likely that the first 4 Frigates may have a primary role of ASW and other 4 with primary role of AAW,AShW.


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## Myth_buster_1

gubbi said:


> I am not distorting any facts, my friend. Check out this thread (*Alamgir Class Frigate*) and recheck my post. PN will NOT get the ESSM with the frigates. 70 mil is for refurbishment and not for new weapons. Like Thomas said, these boats are primarily to be used as anti-submarine platforms. These boats are still vulnerable to the IN's BrahMos, anytime!



What ever you say, but PN is smart enough to upgrade them with modern frigates capabilities. BrahMos aka export variant of P-800 is not a threat as you emphasis to suite your ego which can be easily intercepted with ESSM or SM-2.


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## Peregrine

gubbi said:


> I am not distorting any facts, my friend. Check out this thread (*Alamgir Class Frigate*) and recheck my post. PN will NOT get the ESSM with the frigates. 70 mil is for refurbishment and not for new weapons. Like Thomas said, these boats are primarily to be used as anti-submarine platforms. These boats are still vulnerable to the IN's BrahMos, anytime!


Hi
where is the link that says that Pakistan will not be given any defensive weapons or capabilities along with these frigates?????? you are making these statements on your own subjective judgment. that there will be no ESSM or Sm's either 1 or 2. 
The government of Pakistan has clearly stated that they wont be paying a penny for the frigate which will be commissioned in August, its refurbishment cost will be paid through the American aid for Pakistan. where as you were stating that Pakistan is paying 70 million us dollar....... am i right ? so if Pakistan can buy f22-p frigates for more than 150 million us dollars dont you think they would make sure that it gets good radars or sams ? given the fact that Pakistan has experience with MK-1 its little immature and too early to say with assurity that Pakistan will not have any SAM's on these frigates, may be Pakistan will opt for some European or Chinese weapons.


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## gubbi

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> where is the link that says that Pakistan will not be given any defensive weapons or capabilities along with these frigates?????? you are making these statements on your own subjective judgment. that there will be no ESSM or Sm's either 1 or 2.
> The government of Pakistan has clearly stated that they wont be paying a penny for the frigate which will be commissioned in August, its refurbishment cost will be paid through the American aid for Pakistan. where as you were stating that Pakistan is paying 70 million us dollar....... am i right ? so if Pakistan can buy f22-p frigates for more than 150 million us dollars dont you think they would make sure that it gets good radars or sams ? given the fact that Pakistan has experience with MK-1 its little immature and too early to say with assurity that Pakistan will not have any SAM's on these frigates, may be Pakistan will opt for some European or Chinese weapons.



Show me a credible article which says that PN is going to upgrade these boats with modern defense systems along with the advanced ESSM's and SM-2? Pakistan cannot afford any such modern systems because you dont have the funds! And neither will US 'donate' - for want of a better word - its advanced systems lest the prying Chinese lay their hands on the tech! Plain and simple logic. 

Of course, you do have your "all weather friend" in the Chinese who may supply these boats with SAM's but not of the caliber of ESSM or SM-2/3 etc. So, my point still stands, PN is not getting any SM-2's for these boats and these boats are vulnerable to IN's BrahMos!


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## Myth_buster_1

gubbi said:


> Show me a credible article which says that PN is going to upgrade these boats with modern defense systems along with the advanced ESSM's and SM-2? Pakistan cannot afford any such modern systems because you dont have the funds! And neither will US 'donate' - for want of a better word - its advanced systems lest the prying Chinese lay their hands on the tech! Plain and simple logic.


Since when military budgets are shared with wikipeedia arms chair general like you? 
Up gradation of these FFGs will fall under PN modernization program! 
*P-3C -* upgraded to P-3C Update II.5/III configuration which enhances its capabilities in ASW,AShW roles. 
*Corvettes-* Reported by Turkish sources that PN will acquire 3-4 Milgem stealthy corvettes.
3 Submarines tender- Either Merlin, or Type-214
Frigates- 4 more F-22P with enhanced capabilities and tender for 4 more Frigates of different class then F-22P. According to Chinese sources PN may buy Type-054A frigates.

and you are telling me PN has no money for a cost effective solution?

Their are other programs that pakistan is currently planning to acquire. But I see, your attention here is to troll with your useless rubbish posts.


> Of course, you do have your "all weather friend" in the Chinese who may supply these boats with SAM's but not of the caliber of ESSM or SM-2/3 etc. So, my point still stands, PN is not getting any SM-2's for these boats and these boats are vulnerable to IN's BrahMos!


Say what ever you want. But the export product of P-800 will be shot down by SM-2 that FFGs will be equipped with. I hope IN officials are also narrow minded like you and under mines everything related to pakistan so that in war time they can be caught with their pants down.


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## Frankenstein

deckingraj said:


> Would you mind if i spin your argument a bit and say how come JF-17 not inducted by China?? Does that mean JF-17 is a junk like Brahmos??
> 
> Understand the basic difference when it comes to Brahmos...It is a JV and as per MCTR its range cannot exceed 300 KM...Now in Indian subcontinent especially in Indo-Pak scenario this range is good enough but not for Russia...SO what's the point of Inducting something which is of practically no use to you.......However the technology mastered will be used in other programs....
> 
> I hope i answered it as per your satisfaction..



Man i was sure that some fool will ask this Question, JF17 is just a light multirole aircraft which will be taking over the aging fleet of F7s, they where made according to our requirements. BrahMos might be the most advance, invincible, fast missile for you(still dont know why Russian haven't abducted it yet), but JF17s are not our front line fighters(china haven't abducted it yet cuz they have more advance aircraft then jf17), Same is the case with Mitsubishi F-2, it was a joint venture between US and Japan but US dosent operate it
And i never said that JF17 was a junk so as brahmos, so plz try to read before firing your guns,

As i have answered my question, now its your turn
*if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???*


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## SpArK

> BrahMos is not meant to be a stealth missile it is prone to detection by radar. Babur serves this purpose with high degree of manoeuvrability, allowing it to "hug" terrain and "near-stealth" capabilities.





> First off, to claim BrahMos as invincible is truly exaggeration beyond measure. Technology evolves in time there are no known systems that are completely invincible. An example is the first combat hit on F-117 in Yugoslavia.
> 
> There are known counter measures and systems that can be deployed against BrahMos





> Ballistic missile was intercepted at its terminal or final phase of flight which is more faster then Barahmos which certinally shatters indian myth that Bahramos cant be intercepted.






> The point is Sir,
> 1. brahmoos is not invisible at radar, the only advantage it has is speed.
> 2. to fire a brahmoos u have to come atleast 250 km inside towards the target vessel. if its a fishing boat surely brahmoos wil destroy it, but if its Pakistani navy vessel then before you could fire the brahmoos you will be fired at with Harpoon II or C803.
> 
> The equation.
> Harpoon II for the brahmoos carrier and SM 2 for the launched brahmoos (i.e if it was able to lauch)
> 
> Result.
> 
> Brahmoos missile along with its vessel destroyed.





> Nothing wrong with speculating what upgrades the FFG-7's will get. We know it will have increased defense and anti sub capability for sure. But it has not been announced yet what those upgrades will be exactly. If Australia does the upgrading based on what they have done to their own FFG-7's. it could include the Evovled Sea Sparrow (ESSM). Which is definitely capable of shooting down the Brahmos.





> Let me clarify that if PN acquires SM-2 block IIIA/B it will have a very effective capability to engage supersonic missiles such as brahmos and secondary capability to engage surface targets as well.





*Ship-launched Brahmos can fly in sea-skimming mode, completely destroy target
*


The ship-launched anti-ship version of Brahmos missile can fly at supersonic speed barely 3-4 meters above the surface of the sea making it ideal for *stealth* attack against enemy ships. 


The missile which is being offered to Malaysia to be mounted on its new generation patrol vessels successfully completed its anti-ship test two months ago.

The technology behind the missile makes it a game-changer in the global arms industry. No other missile is capable of flying at match 2 plus speeds and *yet skim the seas*.

its competitors for the Malaysian program, such as the Exocet missile made by MBDA can only fly at sub-sonic speeds making it *vulnerable to counter-attacks*.

Brahmos Aerospace CEO, Dr. A. Sivathanu Pillai told Defenseworld.net at the DSA 2010 show that the high speed of the Brahmos missile combined with a heavier weight makes it about 15 times more lethal than a conventional anti-ship missile. "Any other anti-ship missile will only leave a hole in the hull of the attacked ship, but the Brahmos missile will completely obliterate the target. In the anti-ship missile tests done in India, the target ship was completely blown to pieces", he said.

The Malaysian Navy Chief of Staff, Admiral Abdul Aziz Bin Haji Jaafar visited the BrahMos pavillion at the DSA 2010 show. He showed keen interest in the ship-launched version of the missile and wrote in the visitors book, "we look forward to working jointly with Brahmos". 


Ship-launched BRAHMOS can fly in sea-skimming mode, completely destroy target :: BrahMos.com

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## SpArK

Frankenstein said:


> *I really don't understand one thing, if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???
> *



*Well only one answer. India beat Russia in inducting the system to its force*.


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## SpArK

*Conclusion *

Pakistan Navy's answer for Brahmos = SM-2 ( *S*ome *M*issile - *2* be yet Invented).

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## Frankenstein

BENNY said:


> *Conclusion *
> 
> Pakistan Navy's answer for Brahmos = SM-2 ( *S*ome *M*issile - *2* be yet Invented).


U are not funny at all
I just remember something from the last thread

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## Myth_buster_1

BENNY said:


> *Ship-launched Brahmos can fly in sea-skimming mode, completely destroy target
> *
> 
> 
> The ship-launched anti-ship version of Brahmos missile can fly at supersonic speed barely 3-4 meters above the surface of the sea making it ideal for *stealth* attack against enemy ships.
> 
> 
> The missile which is being offered to Malaysia to be mounted on its new generation patrol vessels successfully completed its anti-ship test two months ago.
> 
> The technology behind the missile makes it a game-changer in the global arms industry. No other missile is capable of flying at match 2 plus speeds and *yet skim the seas*.
> 
> its competitors for the Malaysian program, such as the Exocet missile made by MBDA can only fly at sub-sonic speeds making it *vulnerable to counter-attacks*.
> 
> Brahmos Aerospace CEO, Dr. A. Sivathanu Pillai told Defenseworld.net at the DSA 2010 show that the high speed of the Brahmos missile combined with a heavier weight makes it about 15 times more lethal than a conventional anti-ship missile. "Any other anti-ship missile will only leave a hole in the hull of the attacked ship, but the Brahmos missile will completely obliterate the target. In the anti-ship missile tests done in India, the target ship was completely blown to pieces", he said.
> 
> The Malaysian Navy Chief of Staff, Admiral Abdul Aziz Bin Haji Jaafar visited the BrahMos pavillion at the DSA 2010 show. He showed keen interest in the ship-launched version of the missile and wrote in the visitors book, "we look forward to working jointly with Brahmos".
> 
> 
> Ship-launched BRAHMOS can fly in sea-skimming mode, completely destroy target :: BrahMos.com



Notice that the website is a indian dumaka massala fanboy news site based on absurd over exaggerated facts. 

Pillai is a pathological lair who is bloodily exaggerating facts and figures.

The website has even claimed that no missiles can defeat this brahmos (export variant of P-800) and all fanboys have jumped to conclusions that all of sudden India has this super invincible alien technology! 

The original export version, the Yakhont, was available starting in 1998. Since then, *another export version has been under development called the PJ-10 Brahmos.* It is a joint venture between Russia and India's Defense Research and Development Organization. *The Brahmos is more or less a modified Oniks, adjusted to Indian requirements.*The missile flies on various trajectories up to an altitude of 20,000 m. Typically, it *flies at 14,000 m* at the high point of a *high-low trajectory* and at about *10-15 m* at the low point of a *low-low trajectory*. Just before terminal engagement, the missile usually* descends to 5-10 m.* The maximum *range is 300 km (high-low) *or *120 km (low-low)*. 
*The missile's speed is Mach 2.3 at high altitude and Mach 1.5 at low altitude. *



Brahmos can be easily countered with SM-2 block IIIA/IIIB and at any course of trajectory. 
The current generation of SM-2, Blocks IIIA and IIIB, capitalizes on communication techniques, midcourse guidance, advanced signal processing and propulsion improvements. These enhancements substantially increase the *intercept range and provide high- and
low-altitude intercept capability and performance against advanced anti-ship missile threats*.


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## Myth_buster_1

BENNY said:


> *Conclusion *
> 
> Pakistan Navy's answer for Brahmos = SM-2 ( *S*ome *M*issile - *2* be yet Invented).



The amount of knee jerk reactions by indians on this thread is already proving having alot of psychological effects. The SM-2 is relied upon various modern navies such as USN, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Spain, Canada, Netherlands to defend against any type of AShMs. 

Btw Brahmos is a export product of P-800 that Russians dont rely upon so much while SM series missiles are one of the deadliest missiles in the world. I hope you can sleep well.

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## SpArK

Growler said:


> Notice that the website is a indian dumaka massala fanboy news site based on absurd over exaggerated facts.
> 
> Pillai is a pathological lair who is bloodily exaggerating facts and figures.
> 
> The website has even claimed that no missiles can defeat this brahmos (export variant of P-800) and all fanboys have jumped to conclusions that all of sudden India has this super invincible alien technology!
> 
> The original export version, the Yakhont, was available starting in 1998. Since then, *another export version has been under development called the PJ-10 Brahmos.* It is a joint venture between Russia and India's Defense Research and Development Organization. *The Brahmos is more or less a modified Oniks, adjusted to Indian requirements.*The missile flies on various trajectories up to an altitude of 20,000 m. Typically, it *flies at 14,000 m* at the high point of a *high-low trajectory* and at about *10-15 m* at the low point of a *low-low trajectory*. Just before terminal engagement, the missile usually* descends to 5-10 m.* The maximum *range is 300 km (high-low) *or *120 km (low-low)*.
> *The missile's speed is Mach 2.3 at high altitude and Mach 1.5 at low altitude. *
> 
> 
> 
> Brahmos can be easily countered with SM-2 block IIIA/IIIB and at any course of trajectory.
> The current generation of SM-2, Blocks IIIA and IIIB, capitalizes on communication techniques, midcourse guidance, advanced signal processing and propulsion improvements. These enhancements substantially increase the *intercept range and provide high- and
> low-altitude intercept capability and performance against advanced anti-ship missile threats*.



Its an international official website of Russian and Indian owned brahmos corporation. I can understand its still not enough for you.

If i find something similar in rupee news.. will surely send it to you .


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## SpArK

Frankenstein said:


> U are not funny at all
> I just remember something from the last thread





LOL very funny. At-least you are funny.

Other than the funny image , why don't you spend some *quality* time countering the argument. ??


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## Myth_buster_1

BENNY said:


> Its an international official website of Russian and Indian owned brahmos corporation. I can understand its still not enough for you.
> 
> If i find something similar in rupee news.. will surely send it to you .



What the hell is "international" official website? What ever it is it is still some fanboy site like untrusted rupeenews and both have same low credibility. 


> Will the light combat helicopter of india outperform other exclusive club of world class light attack helicopters
> -yes
> -no


when such desperate fanboys attentions polls are created it only means that the site itself immature and unreliable. kindly go and click the yes button.


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## Frankenstein

BENNY said:


> LOL very funny. At-least you are funny.
> 
> Other than the funny image , why don't you spend some *quality* time countering the argument. ??



Whats the point man, tell me whats the point, their is a guy named Growler doing the same thing, but you are claiming that there is nothing such as brahmos in the world 

BTW I had asked a question that, if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???
and the answer of my question is Brahmos is a export product of P-800


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## jagjitnatt

Frankenstein said:


> Whats the point man, tell me whats the point, their is a guy named Growler doing the same thing, but you are claiming that there is nothing such as brahmos in the world
> 
> BTW I had asked a question that, if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???
> and the answer of my question is Brahmos is a export product of P-800


Let me answer that question for you.
Brahmos is not an export version of anything. But it is derived from previous missiles just like 90&#37; missiles out there.
The only thing common between it and its predecessors is the propulsion system. The navigation, maneuvering, countermeasures etc are bsed on Indian algorithms, which we excel at. The mind of the missile is Indian whereas the power plant is Russian.

Russia is not buying because
1. missile is very expensive. Russian economy as we all know is not doing good at all. Its not even inducting its own Su30, Mig35, Su35, etc etc in good numbers. Its still stuck with Mig29 (not even completely upgraded) and Su27. Don't tell me these were the best aircraft for them. They are not inducting anything new since the past 2-3 decades.

2. The older Russian destroyers and frigates can not accomodate these missiles right now. Although a little modification can solve the problem, but that would cause compatibility problem with previous missiles.

3. Russia does not need a missile limited to 290kms. It has missiles with much larger range. Still it is inducting them on newer ships, speaks volumes for the missile.

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## Kinetic

Growler said:


> And then the indians complain and whine why we call them trolls. ladies and gentlemen this above post is a very prime example of it.
> 
> Firstly when you post something on a thread that you have no idea about do a non pathetic wikipeedia research and develop some information before you make a mockery out of yourself with low quality post with no substantial informations.
> 
> Only a trolls ask the same question over and over again that has been comprehensively answered many times!
> 
> The FFGs for PN will be given intensive Refurbishment worth 78 million dollars which will extend the ships' life and retain all the systems that were taken off for USN cost saving plans.
> Under a PN modernization plan these frigates will be given upgradation of many systems and armament packages will be also acquired for the frigates.
> The MK13 launching system is specifically made for Standard Missile series such as SM-1 and SM-2 even with block IIIA IIIB variants and can not fire any other type of surface to air missiles.
> 
> Those pictures of SM-2 Block IIIA/B being fired from VLS MK41 launching system.
> 
> Here is a picture of RAN newly accquired SM-2 block IIIA being fired from upgraded HMAS Melbourne (FFG class frigate).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont know why indians delude themself so much and tend to live in a false mythical society to satisfy their ego.
> 
> The Americans countered Russian supersonic missiles long time ago with SM-1 series. On a heads on course even a RIM-116 can counter any super sonic missile. The SM-2 missile is a mach 3+ long range missile that can counter just about any threat.



So you can post imaginary thread and no one can say anything? The AShM and SAM systems from ships were removed. Learn first and stop dreaming, before posting another new thread do some research as well. Don't let people laugh on you. 

*"the ships' Mk 13 single arm missile launchers and magazines have been removed from all U.S. Navy active frigates because the primary missile that it was meant to fire, the Standard missile SM-1MR, has outlived its service life. With the removal of their Mk 13 missile launchers the American Oliver Hazard Perry-class warships also lose their Harpoon anti-ship missile capability. " *

Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Above all SM-2 doesn't come for $ 78 million.* 

No mention of any new air defence system for FFG-8!!!

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Pakistan_09-28.pdf


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## Quwa

^^^

Who said that PN is not going to upgrade the OHPs _after_ it receives the ships?


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## DaRk WaVe

Mark Sien said:


> ^^^
> 
> *Who said that PN is not going to upgrade the OHPs* _after_ it receives the ships?



Indians 

why not upgrade these OHPs to Turkish G class Frigates, seems a pretty decent option....

there is a different thread going on, its suggesting that PN might want to use OHPs only for ASW


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## Quwa

Turkey did offer Pakistan the GENESIS, and the PN probably has an idea of the G-Class upgrade too. Given that U.S. released Block-52+, AMRAAM, JDAM, and even listed Pakistan as a potential customer of AH-1Z - why would Mk.41 VLS and ESSM be a problem? Wasn't it primarily geared for export anyways? Plus who said that all 8 OHPs will have to be the exact same...could it not be that the PN wants 4~6 properly equipped and the rest for more supplementary roles such as patrol, training, pure ASW, etc? Things are not flat out all or nothing, we can very well see a mixed fleet.

SM-2 on the OHP may be a stretch for PN though, perhaps a financial/technical one more so than actually acquiring the SM-2 system itself. But acquiring ESSM on the OHPs would be more than sufficient in defending against the Brahmos threat.

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## Peregrine

gubbi said:


> Show me a credible article which says that PN is going to upgrade these boats with modern defense systems along with the advanced ESSM's and SM-2? Pakistan cannot afford any such modern systems because you dont have the funds! And neither will US 'donate' - for want of a better word - its advanced systems lest the prying Chinese lay their hands on the tech! Plain and simple logic.
> 
> Of course, you do have your "all weather friend" in the Chinese who may supply these boats with SAM's but not of the caliber of ESSM or SM-2/3 etc. So, my point still stands, PN is not getting any SM-2's for these boats and these boats are vulnerable to IN's BrahMos!


Hi
i am not the one who is saying with assurance that Pakistan will be or will not be getting SM-2 or ESSM. am i ? so it's you who need to provide the link. There are no details regarding the defense system of these frigates so far. so for that we will have to wait. advocating the ideas that Pakistan will not integrate American weapons and there are lacks of funds etc etc just come out of sheer ignorance. you haven't been able to apprehend the fact that PN is getting this refurbished frigate for free and that 65 million will be paid by USA, so if Pakistan will have to pay even 100 million from own pocket for a potent defense system to be installed on this frigate it still will be 80 million dollars cheaper than f-22P, i hope this was enlightening


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## Quwa

The following DSCA article gives a rough idea as to how much the Mk.41 VLS could cost the PN...cost will likely be higher now, but nonetheless it's interesting:



> The Government of Turkey has requested a possible sale of *six MK 41 Vertical Launch System (VLS) Baseline VII tactical modules and two sets of MK 41 VLS upgrade kits* to modernize two MEKO Track IIA frigates, four ex-Perry Class FFG Frigates and to upgrade two MEKO Track IIB MK-41 VLS from baseline IV to baseline VII configuration. *Included with the MK 41 VLS are the ship&#8217;s fire control system upgrades to allow for Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile capability, installation and testing, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, equipment operation and maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, support and test equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, launch system software development and maintenance and other related elements of logistics support*. The estimated cost is *$227 million.*


http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Turkey_08-40.pdf

I don't think PN will need to spend upwards $100mn per OHP if it intends to upgrade them. It may be that the U.S. funded refurbishment may have accomplished much of the work, and all that is left could be key systems for armaments.

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## Myth_buster_1

jagjitnatt said:


> Let me answer that question for you.
> Brahmos is not an export version of anything. But it is derived from previous missiles just like 90% missiles out there.
> The only thing common between it and its predecessors is the propulsion system. The navigation, maneuvering, countermeasures etc are bsed on Indian algorithms, which we excel at. The mind of the missile is Indian whereas the power plant is Russian.



This is the myth that has been created by non other then pathological lair Indian officials and then Indian fanboys deluding themself with anything that satisfies their ego. The Missile is basically RUSSIAN! A export product of P-800 with changes done for specifically Indian configurations done by the RUSSIANS. India has vast history of hiring foreigner consultants to assist Indians with projects and in this case its Russian consultants doing the work. 


> http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/india/india-missile-shopping.htmlIndia is still weak* in many vital rocket technologies, and needs help in composites, electronics, computers, sensors, navigation, guidance, control and propulsion, according to a Pentagon study which ranks countries' military capabilities. To bolster its efforts in these areas, India is looking for imports.*






> Russia is not buying because
> 1. missile is very expensive. Russian economy as we all know is not doing good at all. Its not even inducting its own Su30, Mig35, Su35, etc etc in good numbers. Its still stuck with Mig29 (not even completely upgraded) and Su27. Don't tell me these were the best aircraft for them. They are not inducting anything new since the past 2-3 decades.
> 
> 2. The older Russian destroyers and frigates can not accomodate these missiles right now. Although a little modification can solve the problem, but that would cause compatibility problem with previous missiles.
> 
> 3. Russia does not need a missile limited to 290kms. It has missiles with much larger range. Still it is inducting them on newer ships, speaks volumes for the missile.



WRONG! Brahmos is not expensive as their vast inventory of ICBM, Long range Cruise Missiles, and Russia can afford them in good numbers if they are ever interested in it. 

1. Russian AF has recently ordered production of Su-35 BM which is superior to SU-30MKI and its most likely that they will also order mig-35. 

2. Russia has much better Cruise missiles in its inventory.

3. Brahmos range is purposely modified by Russians to not exceed 300KM MTCR range.


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## Myth_buster_1

Kinetic said:


> So you can post imaginary thread and no one can say anything? The AShM and SAM systems from ships were removed. Learn first and stop dreaming, before posting another new thread do some research as well. Don't let people laugh on you.
> 
> *"the ships' Mk 13 single arm missile launchers and magazines have been removed from all U.S. Navy active frigates because the primary missile that it was meant to fire, the Standard missile SM-1MR, has outlived its service life. With the removal of their Mk 13 missile launchers the American Oliver Hazard Perry-class warships also lose their Harpoon anti-ship missile capability. " *
> 
> Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *Above all SM-2 doesn't come for $ 78 million.*
> 
> No mention of any new air defence system for FFG-8!!!
> 
> http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Pakistan_09-28.pdf



Good for nothing troll! you clearly lack comprehension and knowledge of anything. 
The 78 million dollars intensive refurbishment is aimed at enhancing ASW capability, extending the life, and retaining all the systems that were striped off for USN cost saving plans.


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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> Turkey did offer Pakistan the GENESIS, and the PN probably has an idea of the G-Class upgrade too. Given that U.S. released Block-52+, AMRAAM, JDAM, and even listed Pakistan as a potential customer of AH-1Z - why would Mk.41 VLS and ESSM be a problem? Wasn't it primarily geared for export anyways? Plus who said that all 8 OHPs will have to be the exact same...could it not be that the PN wants 4~6 properly equipped and the rest for more supplementary roles such as patrol, training, pure ASW, etc? Things are not flat out all or nothing, we can very well see a mixed fleet.
> 
> SM-2 on the OHP may be a stretch for PN though, perhaps a financial/technical one more so than actually acquiring the SM-2 system itself. But acquiring ESSM on the OHPs would be more than sufficient in defending against the Brahmos threat.



AOA

PN has previously operated SM-1 in 80s-90s and at present some sophisticated weapons as well. SM-2 is very essential for PN which provides long range interception capability, an area at which Pakistan is really lagging. In order to use ESSM a very expensive VLS MK41 must be integrated where as MK13 is free and 32 round magazine can be utilized for the more capable SM-2.
SM-2 with the range of 150+KM can intercept MIG-29K P-8 and all the major air threats from IN.


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## sohan

Every Indian is a troll, you should just ban us all.

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## Myth_buster_1

sohan said:


> Every Indian is a troll, you should just ban us all.



Unfortunately here in this thread their are very very few indians who have contributed with constructive arguments. 
And their are many Indians who just post without researching and without reading what has already been posted because most of their absurd questions have already been answered. 
Posts like Bharamos cant be defeated by any ship launched SAMs and that Pak Navy cant afford upgrades on these frigates are just mere ignorance and subject of being trolling.


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## jagjitnatt

Growler said:


> Unfortunately here in this thread their are very very few indians who have contributed with constructive arguments.
> And their are many Indians who just post without researching and without reading what has already been posted because most of their absurd questions have already been answered.
> Posts like Bharamos cant be defeated by any ship launched SAMs and that Pak Navy cant afford upgrades on these frigates are just mere ignorance and subject of being trolling.



What is there to discuss dude??

- a missile that Pak is not getting?
- how it can kill brahmos?
- how these frigates are free?

Speculation over another speculation. I don't expect you to understand anything. You've proved yourself.

We are all aware of your intellect.

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## Isaq Khan

Growler said:


> Unfortunately here in this thread their are very very few indians who have contributed with constructive arguments.
> And their are many Indians who just post without researching and without reading what has already been posted because most of their absurd questions have already been answered.
> Posts like Bharamos cant be defeated by any ship launched SAMs and that Pak Navy cant afford upgrades on these frigates are just mere ignorance and subject of being trolling.



But every silly question gets a silly answer how can u expect something else.
*
U have started a imaginative dream sequence.*

*And on top of it added Brahmos just to flame* but have no link or sources to prove just shutting every member up because u don't have something to offer in this thread.

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## Kinetic

Mark Sien said:


> ^^^
> 
> Who said that PN is not going to upgrade the OHPs _after_ it receives the ships?



*Because it is not doing so. 

$ 78 million dollar includes the ship, parts and logistic support. So tell me (if you can) where the SM-2 comes into the picture? 

I don't expect any source from Growler, because who ever ask about his dreams are trolls!!! Than again SM-2 vs Brahmos, which is very unlikely scenario!!! *

In every post I asked for a source he denied it with calling me troll!!

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## Myth_buster_1

Growler said:


> Here you deserve that award after you have clearly proved that indeed you are not just a troll and a low quality poster but dumbest of all.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I hope you have two functional eyes let along a brain.
> Watch the video again very carefully because you need to be very attentive!
> YouTube - SM2 Launch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will post this news with the biggest font this forum has just for you so that you can read without having any difficulties.
> 
> Navy tests new SM-2 missile
> source: australianaviation.com.au
> *The RAN has successfully test fired a Raytheon SM-2 surface-to-air missile from the FFG frigate HMAS Melbourne during a test at the off the East Australian Exercise Area off Jervis Bay on the NSW south coast.*
> 
> The SM-2 will provide the RAN with an enhanced medium to long range anti-air capability, and has been introduced on the four remaining Adelaide class frigates as part of the FFG-UP program over the past few years.
> 
> HMAS Melbourne is now equipped with two modern missile systems to combat anti-ship missiles and aircraft, said Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science, Greg Combet in a statement. The missile was fired from the missile launching system that has recently been modified as part of the project to replace the SM-1 in the upgraded FFG. This firing is a significant achievement and provides confidence in the ships updated weapon control system.
> 
> The FFG-UP program was previously considered a program of risk but has turned the corner in the past couple of years following the intervention of Minister Combet and an improved working relationship between industry and Defence. All four vessels have been re-delivered to the RAN.
> 
> 
> The MK41 installed in RAN FFGs will be equipped with quad cells to house 4 ESSM in each of the 8 MK41 cells.
> 
> This is ESSM launched from MK41.
> 
> 
> 2) OH really? says the guy with peanut size brain with weak eye sight and the lack of comprehension ability.
> 
> Source: Raytheon
> 
> 
> 3) be proud that you have achieved one thing in this forum and it is the dumbest award.





Ahhh hnnn.. I remember something from the past. 

One thing is quite clear that you simply lack comprehension ability of my posts which is simply beyond your mental capacity. 



jagjitnatt said:


> What is there to discuss dude??
> 
> - a missile that Pak is not getting?
> - how it can kill brahmos?
> - how these frigates are free?
> 
> Speculation over another speculation. I don't expect you to understand anything. You've proved yourself.
> 
> We are all aware of your intellect.



Now you are resorting to trolling with your absurd counter arguments. If you cant do research on your own then read what is already provided in this thread and enlighten yourself.


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## Myth_buster_1

Isaq Khan said:


> But every silly question gets a silly answer how can u expect something else.
> *
> U have started a imaginative dream sequence.*
> 
> *And on top of it added Brahmos just to flame* but have no link or sources to prove just shutting every member up because u don't have something to offer in this thread.



Just dont post here if you think the thread is silly. 
I can understand that since you have no knowledge and understanding of military matters you are going to have hard time comprehending technical materials provided here. 
Your military knowledge is only limited to wikipeedia and bharatraksaw materials, kindly come out of the bobble.


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## Myth_buster_1

Kinetic said:


> *Because it is not doing so.
> 
> $ 78 million dollar includes the ship, parts and logistic support. So tell me (if you can) where the SM-2 comes into the picture? I don't expect any source from Growler, because who ever ask about his dreams are trolls!!! Than again SM-2 vs Brahmos, which is very unlikely scenario!!! *
> In every post I asked for a source he denied it with calling me troll!!



Oh I see. Pakistani military acquisitions are usually matter of to some degree secrecy and usually reveals its plans just before signing of the contract. The initial stage of PN FFGs will be refurbishments and then apart from this refurbishment the frigates will receive a modern capabilities through upgrades at either our own expense or US military aid plan. The PN P-3C 900 million dollars up gradation is the prime example which will have enhance capability in ASW and AShW roles. The SM-2 discussion is based on educated guesses and logic which certainly most indians lack to comprehend. The frigates main launching system the MK-13 is specifically designed for Standard Missiles series (SM-2) and Harpoon missiles.


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## jagjitnatt

Growler said:


> Ahhh hnnn.. I remember something from the past.
> 
> One thing is quite clear that you simply lack comprehension ability of my posts which is simply beyond your mental capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are resorting to trolling with your absurd counter arguments. If you cant do research on your own then read what is already provided in this thread and enlighten yourself.



Well you are the one with the absurd imagination posting threads without a credible evidence and when we counter it, you rubbish it due to lack of research. Just great, but as I said what better can be expected of you? 

Give us a credible link and I'll believe what you say.

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## Myth_buster_1

jagjitnatt said:


> Well you are the one with the absurd imagination posting threads without a credible evidence and when we counter it, you rubbish it due to lack of research. Just great, but as I said what better can be expected of you?
> 
> Give us a credible link and I'll believe what you say.



Not bothering wasting my time with this troll on explaining logical PN acquisitions. 
You always dodge my posts and resort to repeating same thing over and over again like a repeater.


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## notorious_eagle

Kinetic said:


> *Because it is not doing so.
> 
> $ 78 million dollar includes the ship, parts and logistic support. So tell me (if you can) where the SM-2 comes into the picture?
> 
> I don't expect any source from Growler, because who ever ask about his dreams are trolls!!! Than again SM-2 vs Brahmos, which is very unlikely scenario!!! *
> 
> In every post I asked for a source he denied it with calling me troll!!



What Growler is trying to say is that initally PN is just paying for the refurbishment, with gradual time it will go for the upgrades. Theres nothing thats stopping PN from getting these upgrades in the future, projects like these are not done overnight, it takes time. 

Just look at the surplus F16 Block 15's that PAF recieved from US, alot of people in Pakistan were pissed at this decision because it was not the latest F16 variant. But guess what, these Block 15's are going through MLU upgrade and their avionics/radar will be upgraded to Block 52 standards. 

It took almost 5 years for the MLU deal to go through; what makes you think once PN recieves the OHP, they wont go for the upgrades in 5 years time. I am sure the naval planners in Pakistan would have done their homework before acquiring these ships, its logical to assume that after acquiring these ships PN would definitely go for the upgrades.


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## deckingraj

notorious_eagle said:


> What Growler is trying to say is that initally PN is just paying for the refurbishment, with gradual time it will go for the upgrades. Theres nothing thats stopping PN from getting these upgrades in the future, projects like these are not done overnight, it takes time.



Sir, can you please point any post where he clearly says this...Just look at the title for god sake... Anyways i have followed this thread from post 1 and no one is challenging that PN cannot upgrade these frigades...However those upgrades are not part of this deal(Good will Gesture- whatever you wanna call it) and here we are not only talking about those upgrades(which are still not in paper and at best logical guess) but also saying PN has got answer to Brahmos...Isnt it a bit absurd???



> Just look at the surplus F16 Block 15's that PAF recieved from US, alot of people in Pakistan were pissed at this decision because it was not the latest F16 variant. But guess what, these Block 15's are going through MLU upgrade and their avionics/radar will be upgraded to Block 52 standards.


And no one is challenging that....Howver i am sure you would agree there has to e a difference b/w a logical guess vs a closed deal...We all know how time consuming are such deals and it takes a significant amount of time before they fructify leave aside actual ground work...Moreover one has to ensure funds are there...Mind it i am not saying that PN can't afford it but no one can deny cash crunch can also be a problem...



> It took almost 5 years for the MLU deal to go through; what makes you think once PN recieves the OHP, they wont go for the upgrades in 5 years time. I am sure the naval planners in Pakistan would have done their homework before acquiring these ships, its logical to assume that after acquiring these ships PN would definitely go for the upgrades.




Which is fine....As said many times this is a logical guess...but what's wrong in saying it??? However the way this thread has been brought up and discussed so far it gives an impression that you are already getting all this in $76 million....the reason almost every member is asking for any credible source and in turn being labeled as a TROLL....

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## deckingraj

thunder rules said:


> for ur kind info china has a deep planes for thunder they are evaluating it as per their own needs that is the reason they have introduced a new engine particular for thunder as we all knw that is ws 13 or 10.. surly they have a strategic planes regarding jf 17 thunder that is the reason china is spending sone much of money r&d and time on evaluation of thunders and making its performance better  u should keep in touch with latest affairs



Is it specualation at its best or you have any credible source for your claims??? I think lot of people need to keep in touch with latest affairs so would appreciate if you can help us....


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## deckingraj

Frankenstein said:


> Man *i was sure that some fool will ask this Question,*



Wow.. I must admire your etiquette capabilities of finding a nice way to answer a question asked in a very humble manner with the intentions of drawing a parallel... 




> JF17 is just a light multirole aircraft which will be taking over the aging fleet of F7s, they where made according to our requirements.



I am glad atleast you said this....However many wise men from you side gives lengthy explanation of how it can take on even MKI's...So somebody is playing fool here...



> BrahMos might be the most advance, invincible, fast missile for you(still dont know why Russian haven't abducted it yet), but JF17s are not our front line fighters(china haven't abducted it yet cuz they have more advance aircraft then jf17), Same is the case with Mitsubishi F-2, it was a joint venture between US and Japan but US dosent operate it
> And i never said that JF17 was a junk so as brahmos, so plz try to read before firing your guns,



Am i jumping guns or you have?? Who simply failed to comprehend a simple analogy which is the way China has not inducted JF17 does not make the fighter any less lethal than what it is(whether it is light weight or whatever) similarly saying that Russia did not inducted this missile won't make the missile any less lethal than what it is.

I have shared many times how many different variants of Brahmos have seen the light from her mainly anti-ship role...All three of our forces are more than keen to induct Brahmos and here you are questioning about its lethality??? Moreover the thread you are participating have a heading that in form of SM-2(which is at best a logical guess) is an answer to India's Brahmos... Doesn't all this speak volumes about the missile and its might??? 

Now lets comes to Russia...Few reasons that i can think of..

- There doctornie which prevents them from inducting anything that has dependency on third party....This is not a small aspect which can be ignored....The only time that i can think of when they give an exception to this is recent announcement about procurement of UAV from Israel...but then this is one field where they lack behind their counterparts(read US) by a big margin...

- Since they are signitory to MCTR they cannot indulge in JV for a cruise missile having range of more than 300 KM... Now care to explain me how this missile with such a limited range can be of help to Russia against a possible conflict with US???

Don't you think it would make more sense to keep investing in this missile and come up with Hypersonic versions and use those learnings in home grown projects of same kind???? Moreover its export variants will also bring in much needed $$$....


Now care to exaplain why would they induct CM that only gives them range of 290 KM??? 



> As i have answered my question, now its your turn
> *if BrahMos is invisible, fastest, coolest missile in the world as Indians over here claims, then why Russians don't have it in there service yet???*



I have... However you need to more pragmatic in understanding the point before giving names like Fools...We all are here to learn...I may be wrong so why don't you correct me...calling me a fool just shows your intellect level...Hope you would not stoop again to the same level and counter me with logic not BS


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## Myth_buster_1

I am expecting some constructive counter arguments for a helpful discussions and i have no reason to call this post a "trolling" post. Unfortunately for this thread, you are one of the few indian who has posted a valid argument but most of it has already been answered. 



deckingraj said:


> Sir, can you please point any post where he clearly says this...Just look at the title for god sake... Anyways i have followed this thread from post 1 and no one is challenging that PN cannot upgrade these frigades...However those upgrades are not part of this deal(Good will Gesture- whatever you wanna call it) and here we are not only talking about those upgrades(which are still not in paper and at best logical guess) but also saying PN has got answer to Brahmos...Isnt it a bit absurd???



You have either not read the entire thread from post 1 or you have ignored my posts and trolling indian posts. 
Kindly go few pages back where most of indians are ranting on PN lack of funds to upgrade these frigates and their illusions of Brahmos being a Cruise Missile that cant not be countered by SM-2. 
Kindly go few posts back where i have clearly stated that PN acquisition of SM-2 is based on my educated and logic sense and I have already given good and valid explanations. And it is starting to get really boring to repeat same thing over and over again to clarify things for new comers who have not been fallowing the discussion. 
All the questions you have asked have been already answered.



> And no one is challenging that....Howver i am sure you would agree there has to e a difference b/w a logical guess vs a closed deal...We all know how time consuming are such deals and it takes a significant amount of time before they fructify leave aside actual ground work...Moreover one has to ensure funds are there...Mind it i am not saying that PN can't afford it but no one can deny cash crunch can also be a problem...


Like I have said. MK-13 launching system is specifically made for Harpoons and Standard Missiles and no other weapons can be fired from it. Leaving only one possibility that under a major armament package it will only include Standard Missiles and more Harpoons that PN has recently inducted. 
As for time consuming deals. PAF acquired AGM-154 just within few months after signing the contract.


> US has provided Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with AGM-154 'Beyond Visual Range (BVR)' stand-off missiles, ostensibly to target terrorist hideouts.
> While state-run news agency said Pakistan has attained another landmark in modern missile technology by producing a joint standoff weapon system capable of hitting "over-the-horizon" targets with accuracy, AGM-154 system was provided by US ahead of President George W Bush's visit to the country.



The list of F-16 armaments such as AMRAAM, JDAM, AGM-64, etc after signing the contract will be delivered after 3-1/2 years. (2006- 2010) Thats 3 years and 6 months and considering the fact that F-16 production is a time consuming process which will be dilivered along with all the package accompanied by US officials to ensure its safety. 
IMO if SM-2 were to be ordered today it could take 12-24 months for delivery. 


> Which is fine....As said many times this is a logical guess...but what's wrong in saying it??? However the way this thread has been brought up and discussed so far it gives an impression that you are already getting all this in $76 million....the reason almost every member is asking for any credible source and in turn being labeled as a TROLL....


You can interpret it how ever you want.


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## deckingraj

Growler said:


> I am expecting some constructive counter arguments for a helpful discussions and i have no reason to call this post a "trolling" post. Unfortunately for this thread, you are one of the few indian who has posted a valid argument but most of it has already been answered.
> 
> You have either not read the entire thread from post 1 or you have ignored my posts and trolling indian posts.
> Kindly go few pages back where most of indians are ranting on PN lack of funds to upgrade these frigates and their illusions of Brahmos being a Cruise Missile that cant not be countered by SM-2.
> Kindly go few posts back where i have clearly stated that PN acquisition of SM-2 is based on my educated and logic sense and I have already given good and valid explanations. And it is starting to get really boring to repeat same thing over and over again to clarify things for new comers who have not been fallowing the discussion.
> All the questions you have asked have been already answered.



Aplogies if i missed them...I thought i had good grip on this thread but seems i missed....




> Like I have said. MK-13 launching system is specifically made for Harpoons and Standard Missiles and no other weapons can be fired from it. Leaving only one possibility that under a major armament package it will only include Standard Missiles and more Harpoons that PN has recently inducted.
> As for time consuming deals. PAF acquired AGM-154 just within few months after signing the contract.



As you said it is a logical guess and i have no problems in agreeing to what you are saying here...However my advice change the title because that gives an impression that it is a fact...We need to keep a difference between a fact and something which has very high probablity of happening...However defence deals are very complex and can bring in surprising results...So one cannot claim anything unless and until there is anything legaly binding...I hope you get what i am trying to say....




> The list of F-16 armaments such as AMRAAM, JDAM, AGM-64, etc after signing the contract will be delivered after 3-1/2 years. (2006- 2010) Thats 3 years and 6 months and considering the fact that F-16 production is a time consuming process which will be dilivered along with all the package accompanied by US officials to ensure its safety.



At best a possibility...and i Have no doubts you would do whatever to get the best for you...You have done in the past and you will certainly do in the future....However unless and until something is finalized lets not over glorify it...We have done discussion on future and we can discuss this as well on as a future goal..



> IMO if SM-2 were to be ordered today it could take 12-24 months for delivery.





> You can interpret it how ever you want.


Its not my interpretation but a general one....Indo-Pak scenario has lot of sensitivity and suddenly if you claim something which can take on Brahmos without even clinging a deal people from other side are bound to react the way they did...As said many times call it a logical guess and discuss(referring to your thread title)...i am sure few of us(excluding me) knows a thing or two about defence and can share knowledge....

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## deckingraj

@Members

Thread Starter has clearly said *that it is his logical conclusion that PN will get SM-2* and nothing concrete...I agree that title is a little misleading however we have discussed many times about scenario where we compare things that are inducted vs future induction....

Lets for the sake of argument create a hypothetical scenario.. Let me share things that i am ruling out or applying
- Pak will get SM-2 missiles
- Induction will happen before Brahmos Hypersonic Version or in other words please don't bring in SM-2 vs Hypersonic Version

Now having those two conditions can you please validate/correct thread starter claim that PN has got an answer to Brahmos...

I am doing my research as well but if i go with the manufacturer claims they clearly say it can get a kill against supersonic missiles....So lets give the debate a new direction....

**********************************************************
@Mods : If you deem fit please change the title of the thread....Will/have caused unnecessary trolling...

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## Myth_buster_1

deckingraj said:


> Its not my interpretation but a general one....Indo-Pak scenario has lot of sensitivity and suddenly if you claim something which can take on Brahmos without even clinging a deal people from other side are bound to react the way they did...As said many times call it a logical guess and discuss(referring to your thread title)...i am sure few of us(excluding me) knows a thing or two about defence and can share knowledge....



No where have I said that indeed Pakistan has signed a contract but gave the high possibility of obtaining the missile. The Indian members were claiming that Brahmos cant be defeated by SM-2 and their logic was from simply reading few lines from wikipedia that its a 1970s missile, which is just mere ignorance and lack of comprehension of military materials or simply not even interest of such military matter. They even claimed Brahmos has no counter missile which is just baseless and false. To these sort of claims I have provided with sources that indeed SM-2 Block IIIA/B are more then capable enough to engage any advance cruise missiles. 
I dont think my thread is misleading. Again it all depends how you interpret the title and the materials provided here. 

never the less good constructive counter argument by a indian member and thats what I am looking for.


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## AUSTERLITZ

The russians do have the brahmoslike missile in service its called the onyx.its a ss-x-26 yakhont variant just like the brahmos.Being cash strapped they can't immediately replace these missiles with brahmos but new stregueschy corvettes are said to have brahmos/onyx depending on financial availability.brahmos is costlier.the russian navy can barely keep itself afloat,heck they had to cancel their new t-95 tank.

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## fatman17

who says that the US is providing SM-2 for the OHP transferred to PN - the OHP will be fitted with 'similar' sensors and weapons as the F-22P

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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> who says that the US is providing SM-2 for the OHP transferred to PN - the OHP will be fitted with 'similar' sensors and weapons as the F-22P



Most probably the US wont allow Pakistan to integrate Chinese sensors and weapons on their platforms. Plus the threat environment has changed dramatically and relying on same old cheap solutions wont get pakistan any where. F-22P or Amazon class frigates on its own are easy target for IN surface combatants. 
Even without upgrades the FFG class frigate prior to 2003 is a lot superior to F-22P in terms of ASW AShW AAW. 
IMO under a PN modernization plan these frigates will most likely go under up gradation just like the P-3C.


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## Myth_buster_1

The FFG air surveillance radar is a very long range radar with *400+KM* range and the A(V)1 configuration provides enhanced capabilities and utilizes ESSM and SM-2 block IIIA very effectively. 



> http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0...1126-496c-90ac-65100a132d84.pdf?LangType=2057FFG UPGRADE*
> Air search radar AN/SPS-49(V)4 radar to the A(V)1
> configuration provides:*
> 
> &#8226; Automatic target detection
> &#8226; *Improved waveform and signal
> processing for low altitude/small
> radar cross section (RCS) targets*
> &#8226; Coherent side lobe cancellation
> giving considerable electronic
> protection capability
> &#8226; Two scan threat alerts
> &#8226; Improved reliability.
> 
> *
> Air surveillance capability*
> 
> &#8226;* The long-range air surveillance,
> target indication and Automatic
> Detect and Track (ADT) functions
> are upgraded*
> &#8226; The AN/SPS 49A(V)1 long-range
> air surveillance radar provides
> improved low elevation small
> target performance and increased
> detection range
> &#8226; The Electro Optical Tracking System
> (EOTS) is integrated into the combat
> system and provides a new fire
> control channel
> &#8226; The Electronic Support (ES) function
> is replaced by a modern high
> performance system.


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## Penguin

Growler said:


> The SM-2 discussion is based on educated guesses and logic



I think this is the most honest key sentence in all the 15 pages that constitute this thread.

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## pak blood

thogh i m new to this forum but i wonder why every thread ultimately turns into india pakistan stuff. its ok to ask about any references , rather it should be necessary to post them with the info . whether sm2 available to paksitan or brahmos indestructible


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## bloo

This is just stupid
BrahMos has different trajectories unlike other cruise missiles it can perform a supersonic dive, can elude not just through the stealth tech it incorprates but coz of its ramjet engine that helps it dodge radar coverage, it can skim as low as 10m above water, can choose the appropriate target among a group and has a CEP of less than 1
And a soon to come hypersonic BrahMos will be more or less impervious to any air defense systems
FYI hypersonic BrahMos has already been tested at Mach 6.5 in Hyderabad


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## Penguin

bloo said:


> BrahMos has different trajectories





bloo said:


> unlike other cruise missiles it can perform a supersonic dive,
> 
> 
> bloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> can elude not just through the stealth tech it incorprates
> 
> 
> 
> What stealth technology? There isn't anything particularly stealthy about the Brahmos missile.
> Manufacturer website doesn't even mention stealth. It does say "low radar signature" jsut once
> BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com
> However, consider that most subsonic missiles are smaller (in diameter as well as length) and will likely have 'low radar signatures' as well.
> 
> 
> 
> bloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> coz of its ramjet engine that helps it dodge radar coverage,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ramjet doesn't help dodge radar coverage. Ramjet > hi speed > little time needed to close distance on the target > less usefull time for opponent to engage missile upon detection (which is why you want Early Warning). Speed does nothing to radar. Speed just give you less time to react (unless you improve detection).
> 
> 
> 
> bloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> it can skim as low as 10m above water,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is 10m low?
> Compare subsonic Exocet:
> 
> 
> 
> As a counter measure against the air defence around the target, it maintains a very low altitude during ingress, staying 1&#8211;2 m above the sea surface. Due to the effect of the radar horizon, this means that the target may not detect an incoming attack until the missile is only 6000 m from impact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exocet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> See also
> 
> 
> 
> Sea skimming anti-ship missiles try to fly as low as is practically achievable, which is almost always below 50 meters (150 ft), and is often down towards 5 meters (15 ft). When under attack, a warship can detect sea-skimming missiles only once they appear over the horizon (about 28 to 46 km from the ship), allowing about 25 to 60 seconds of warning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sea skimming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> bloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> can choose the appropriate target among a group
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many ASHM can
> 
> 
> 
> bloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> has a CEP of less than 1
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And?
> 
> Yawn. You've revived a very old thread for this?
Click to expand...

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## bloo

Penguin said:


> unlike other cruise missiles it can perform a supersonic dive,



Yes it is true, BrahMos is the only cruise missile that can perform a steep supersonic dive.



> This is the first time in the world that a supersonic dive has been realized by a cruise missile


BRAHMOS Block-II test-fired with advanced supersonic dive manoeuvrability :: BrahMos.com




Penguin said:


> What stealth technology? There isn't anything particularly stealthy about the Brahmos missile.
> Manufacturer website doesn't even mention stealth. It does say "low radar signature" jsut once
> BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com





How will you know that BrahMos isn't stealthy?Like me your only source of credible information is the net, so please get off that high horse.
And it seems you missed out something from your own link.



> Stealth technology with advanced embedded software provides the missile with special features......low radar signature......


It seems you are really intent on underplaying BrahMos.





Penguin said:


> However, consider that most subsonic missiles are smaller (in diameter as well as length) and will likely have 'low radar signatures' as well.



Size is not the only factor that influences stealth.
If size was the only criteria in stealth then the F-16 would have been more stealthier than the F-22.
However, until we know the correct rcs of BrahMos it is hard to judge.





Penguin said:


> Ramjet doesn't help dodge radar coverage. Ramjet > hi speed > little time needed to close distance on the target > less usefull time for opponent to engage missile upon detection (which is why you want Early Warning). Speed does nothing to radar. Speed just give you less time to react (unless you improve detection).



Oh Really?



> The missile performed high-level manoeuvres at two given points in a scenario of evading detection by enemies' radars and successfully hit the target ship at a distance of 290 kms.



We don't really know if the ramjet engine also has TVC, but most probably it does, since it can dive and manoeuver quickly.

BrahMos has stealth features, can fly fast, low and manouver past radar coverage.
So yes it is pretty much badass, no matter ho much people are in denial of its capabilities.

BRAHMOS hits bull's eye on the target from INS Teg :: BrahMos.com





Penguin said:


> Is 10m low?
> Compare subsonic Exocet:
> Exocet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> See also
> Sea skimming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Actually the BrahMos ASHM can fly as low as 3-4m, at Mach-2+.
And yes 10m is still very low.

Ship-launched BRAHMOS can fly in sea-skimming mode, completely destroy target :: BrahMos.com





Penguin said:


> Many ASHM can



Not at Mach-2 they cant.
And pray tell, what other ASHMs can do that?




Penguin said:


> And?



LOL
Do you even know what a CEP is?
CEP or Circular Error Probability is the direct result of a missile's accuracy.
And since BrahMos's ability and my comment doesn't faze you, do name a few ASHMs with a zero circular error probability?





Penguin said:


> Yawn. You've revived a very old thread for this?



Yes I do know what I am doing so please keep your condescension to yourself.


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## surya kiran

bloo said:


> Yes it is true, BrahMos is the only cruise missile that can perform a steep supersonic dive.
> .



Just go through the relevant threads on BrahMos. There is lots of information already available. All these points have been discussed to death. And before commenting on a member's expertise, take a few moments off to read their previous posts on other threads.


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## Penguin

> Maneuvering patterns of the anti-ship missile, which is the main threat to naval vessels, are consistent of three types: Waver, Pop-Up, and HighDiver maneuvers.
> 
> The Pop-Up maneuver is the typical pattern of the missile from ship to ship, and usually, many anti-ship missiles perform both sea-skimming and Pop-Up maneuvers. Waver maneuver is an evasive maneuvering pattern of an anti-ship missile or a maneuvering pattern of the torpedo from submarine to ship. The High-Diver maneuver is the typical pattern of the missile from aircraft to ship.
> 
> The typical trajectory of the Harpoon includes pop-up, waver, high-diver maneuvers, and sea skimming during flight until striking the target ship after launching from the platform


http://www.ijcas.org/admin/paper/files/IJCAS_v5_n4_pp.456-462.pdf p458-459

Consider that Harpoon comes in air-, surface- (ship-/land-), submarine launched applications: AGM-84, RGM-84 and UGM-84. Brahmos comes in air and surface (ship/land) launched applications. 

I strongly suspect the 'high diving' in the case of Brahmos referes to the air launch version (see flight path illustrations below). In that sense it is not new: from 1962 to 2007 the Russian deployed a supersonic highdiving missile AS-4 Kelt/Kh22.






Yahont Antiship Missile





Asian Defense: India Modifies Brahmos Missile With New Nav System
The Russian-Indian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile | INFOgraphics | RIA Novosti





Supersonic: Brahmos cleared for Air Force



> The Kh-22 (Complex 22) weapon was developed by the Raduga design bureau and used to arm the Tupolev Tu-22.The Kh-22 uses an Isayev liquid-fuel rocket engine, fueled with hydrazine and IRFNA (inhibited red fuming nitric acid), giving it a maximum speed of Mach 4 and a range of up to 400 km (220 nmi). It can be launched in either high-altitude or low-altitude mode. *In high-altitude mode, it climbs to an altitude of 27,000 m (89,000 ft) and makes a high-speed dive into the target, with a terminal speed of about Mach 4. In low-altitude mode, it climbs to 12,000 m (39,000 ft) and makes a shallow dive at about Mach 1.2*, making the final approach at an altitude under 500 m (1,600 ft).



Kh-32 is a conventionally-armed deep upgrade variant of Kh-22 for modernised Tu-22M3. It features an improved rocket motor and a new seeker head.
Kh-22 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> A Raduga NPO (now part of Tactical Missiles Corporation) development project was reported in January 2000, with the designator Kh-32. The flight test programme had started in 1995. A Russian Air Force in-service date of 2005 was expected, but it is believed that the programme has been delayed, and may well have been terminated as there have been no further reports.


http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Strategic-Weapon-Systems/Kh-32-Russian-Federation.html





Soviet/Russian Cruise Missiles

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## Penguin

Consider Yakhont-Brahmos diameter is 72cm, wingspan 170cm, length 820cm (surface launch versions). This compares to Exocets 35cm, 110cm and 470cm, and C802s 36cm, 122cm and 639cm. Brahmos is a much bigger reflecting target to begin with.

Stealth in missiles

e.g. Norway´s NSM





e.g. US AGM-129A cruise missile





e.g. US AGM-158 JASSM cruise missile





e.g Scalp-Storm Shadow

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## Penguin

Brahmos is a challenge but not an invincible wunderwaffe.

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## bloo

surya kiran said:


> Just go through the relevant threads on BrahMos. There is lots of information already available. All these points have been discussed to death. And before commenting on a member's expertise, take a few moments off to read their previous posts on other threads.



Do point out where I overstated something, coz my knowledge stretches as far as the internet.





Penguin said:


> I strongly suspect the 'high diving' in the case of Brahmos referes to the air launch version (see flight path illustrations below). In that sense it is not new: from 1962 to 2007 the Russian deployed a supersonic highdiving missile AS-4 Kelt/Kh22.



I would like to disagree coz the air-launched BrahMos is still under-development and according to recent news it will be inducted not before 2013.
The Supersonic dive was reported on 2010 on the BrahMos Block-2, which is a land attack version.

BRAHMOS Block-II test-fired with advanced supersonic dive manoeuvrability :: BrahMos.com




Penguin said:


> Brahmos is a challenge but not an invincible wunderwaffe.



No one is saying its invulnerable.
As technology progresses the countermeasures too will progress.
But judging by today's standards BrahMos is definitely badass.


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## surya kiran

bloo said:


> Do point out where I overstated something, coz my knowledge stretches as far as the internet.



Am not saying your are overstating or anything. But lots of these are discussed regularly. Do see the India Defence part of the forum.


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## surya kiran

Penguin said:


> I strongly suspect the 'high diving' in the case of Brahmos referes to the air launch version (see flight path illustrations below). In that sense it is not new: from 1962 to 2007 the Russian deployed a supersonic highdiving missile AS-4 Kelt/Kh22.



The vertical dive was a necessity for the mountainous terrain according to the Army.

"Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the *Army* and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare."

BrahMos develops anti-aircraft variant of missile


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## Penguin

bloo said:


> I would like to disagree coz the air-launched BrahMos is still under-development and according to recent news it will be inducted not before 2013. The Supersonic dive was reported on 2010 on the BrahMos Block-2, which is a land attack version.
> 
> BRAHMOS Block-II test-fired with advanced supersonic dive manoeuvrability :: BrahMos.com



Well, high diving is a pattern typically employed with air-launched anti-ship weapons, including Harpoon. The idea of multi-service weapons is savings through interservice commonality. It would stand to reason that the basic missile can perform all flight patterns required, including a dive. That does not mean however that a shiplaunched version - and more specifically an antishipping missile variant - would typically be employing the high diving pattern.

Meanwhile AFAICT it simply isn't true that that test was the first time a supersonic dive was realized by a cruise missile.

Also, Brahmos is based on the Russian 3M55 Oniks of which Yakhont is the export version. Development of 3M55 by NPO Mash started in 1983. Development was not authorised until 1985 and was largely a private venture. By the third quarter of 1995 up to 20 ballistic trials had been conducted. During the year the first guided weapon trials began using the Nanuchka IV-class trials ship Nakat. In 1999 an air-launched version was reported to be in development, and this was displayed in August 1999. The export version of this missile has the name Yakhont-M, and the complete air-launched weapon system may be known as Alfa. In October 1999 the manufacturers stated that series production of Yakhont, would begin in 2001. By 2001 development thus allowed the launch of the missile from land, sea, air and submarine. The original 3M55 missile has been deployed in Russia as a shore-based (Bastion) and sea-going system. While there were long-term plans to introduce an airborne version for Russia, the current development effort is being driven by a joint programme with India for the BrahMos. I would not be surprised if the trials Russia conducted for their (pre-Brahmos) applications included a high diving trajectory.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/...26-3M55-Oniks-Yakhont-Russian-Federation.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/...BrahMos-PJ-10-3M55-Yakhont-International.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/...tion-SS-N26-SSC-53M55-Russian-Federation.html
http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id.103/cruise_detail.asp
http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id.18/cruise_detail.asp
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2012/09...g-company-for-hypersonic-weapons-development/

The missile also has a high level of accuracy, which has been established by recent test flights as close to 1 m CEP. (nb note how that includes a distance measure)

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## bloo

Penguin said:


> Well, high diving is a pattern typically employed with air-launched anti-ship weapons, including Harpoon. The idea of multi-service weapons is savings through interservice commonality. It would stand to reason that the basic missile can perform all flight patterns required, including a dive. That does not mean however that a shiplaunched version would typically be employing the high diving pattern.
> 
> Meanwhile AFAICT it simply isn't true that that test was the first time a supersonic dive was realized by a cruise missile.




The Block-2 BrahMos was made for the army to employ in the northern mountainous regions, where the BrahMos could dive past hills.
BrahMos ASHM can still perform high-level manoeuvers before striking a target.


I believe every cruise missile brings with itself different sets of capabilities, considering BrahMos we really shouldn't categorize it as a common ASHM.


BrahMos's anti-aircraft carrier variant was able to perform a steep dive.
This is in contradiction to the fact that high-diving manoeuver is a typical pattern of the aircraft-to-ship missiles.


> DRDO conducted a test of a new variant of the Brahmos capable of attacking an aircraft carrier in a steep dive at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur off Odisha on Friday March 30, 2012.


Brahmos Missile Tests - IDP Sentinel

And actually a vertical diving variant is made for the navy.



> "We have achieved the cappability to attack aircraft carriers using the supersonic vertical diving variant of the missile and after demonstrating the capability recently with high precision, we will now offer this to the Indian Navy " BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here Saturday


BrahMos develops anti-aircraft carrier variant of the missile :: BrahMos.com

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## Penguin

surya kiran said:


> The vertical dive was a necessity for the mountainous terrain according to the Army.
> 
> "Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the *Army* and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare."
> 
> BrahMos develops anti-aircraft variant of missile



So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says 


> Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos has developed an _anti-aircraft carrier_ variant of the 290-km supersonic cruise missile.
> 
> "We have achieved the _capability to attack aircraft carriers_ using the supersonic vertical diving variant of the missile and after demonstrating the capability recently with high precision, we will now offer this to the _Indian Navy_," BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here today.

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## Penguin

bloo said:


> The Block-2 BrahMos was made for the army to employ in the northern mountainous regions, where the BrahMos could dive past hills.


Quite possible: no issue for me



bloo said:


> Brahmos ASHM can still perform high-level manoeuvers before striking a target.


No issue. Although it is quite common for antiship missiles to fly a preprogrammed flightpath, including twists and turns, I'm a bit puzzled by the use of the term 'manoeuvers' as this suggest something other than a preprogrammed (waypoint using) path and rather something reactive. 




bloo said:


> I believe every cruise missile brings with itself different sets of capabilities, considering BrahMos we really shouldn't categorize it as a common ASHM.


We commonly categorize weapons by their function and capability. Everything else is detail (this discussion is not about one missile or another being 'common' > what does that mean in this context: used by many navies, 'ordinary?)



bloo said:


> BrahMos's anti-aircraft carrier variant was able to perform a steep dive.
> This is in contradiction to the fact that high-diving manoeuver is a typical pattern of the aircraft-to-ship missiles.


How so? To keep a launching aircraft safe it should preferbly stay outside of SAM range. This can be done either by employing a long range missile (horizontal plane) or by flying at high altitude (vertical plane). Recall SM2 block II/III roughly 120km range to 25km altitude, for example. When launching closer in but from altitude, high diving is the logical missile flight path. If you surface launch and your missile is not a sea skimmer, it first has to climb on its own to altitude and then dive (i.e. pop up manoeuvre). This applies for a sub-, ship- or landlaunched antiship missile. It would seem logical if it also applies to a landlaunched land-attack missile

And actually a vertical diving variant _will be offered_ to the navy ...

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## Armstrong

@Penguin : First off thank you for all those informative posts ! Secondly you mentioned the Exocet & how it has the ability to sea skim at such a level where, if I understood you correctly, its harder to detect it till its fairly close to the ship; how would you rate the C-802 in comparison to that seeing that it too, unless my information is incorrect, flies between 3-5m from sea-level in attack phase ! 

Thirdly (another noob question ! ) : Can there be a cruise-missile type of a torpedo ? Which is to say a Smart Torpedo that positions itself accordingly, avoiding detection, slowing down, speeding up, diving down, coming up till its within reasonable range of the ship & then engage it with a surge of speed till it hits it !

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## surya kiran

Penguin said:


> So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says



Well what i said has also been taken from the article. The article states 2 tests were conducted. One test was for the army as it states the same. The Army version is for the NorthEast.

"Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the Army and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare.

The army has plans of deploying this missile regiment in the Northeast along the borders with China and the proposal was accorded sanction in a Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting last year."


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## Penguin

Armstrong said:


> @Penguin : First off thank you for all those informative posts ! Secondly you mentioned the Exocet & how it has the ability to sea skim at such a level where, if I understood you correctly, its harder to detect it till its fairly close to the ship; how would you rate the C-802 in comparison to that seeing that it too, unless my information is incorrect, flies between 3-5m from sea-level in attack phase !



I would think that Exocet MM-40 Block III and C-802 are in many ways quite comparable, even if the latter is a somewhat bigger missile and the former perhaps a bit more advanced in electronics. The



Armstrong said:


> Thirdly (another noob question ! ) : Can there be a cruise-missile type of a torpedo ? Which is to say a Smart Torpedo that positions itself accordingly, avoiding detection, slowing down, speeding up, diving down, coming up till its within reasonable range of the ship & then engage it with a surge of speed till it hits it !


I think with torpedoes you generally trade off speed and range. 
UK Mk24 Tigerfish Maximum range	39 km (22 nm) at low speed, 13 km (7 nm) at high speed
UK Spearfish Maximum range	54 km (30 nm) at low speed, 23 km (12.5 nm) at high speed
British Torpedoes after World War II
US Mk 48 ADCAP Maximum range 38 km at 55 kn (102 km/h) or 50 km at 40 kn (74 km/h)
USA Torpedoes since World War II
Likewise german andrussian torps: 
German Torpedoes Post World War II 
Russia / USSR Post-World War II Torpedoes

Plus many (not all: e.g. accoustic or wake homing) todays torpedoes are wireguided at least some of the way, which limits your ability to 'bob and weave'. Modern torpedoes use an umbilical wire, which nowadays allows the computer processing power of the submarine or ship to be used
Torpedo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could consider supercavitating torpedoes List of supercavitating torpedoes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Such as the Russian VA-111 Shkval VA-111 Shkval - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Speed
Launch speed: 50 kn (93 km/h)
Maximum speed: 200 kn (370 km/h) or greater
Range: 
Around 11 km to 15 km (new version). 
Older versions could only fire 7 km



surya kiran said:


> Well what i said has also been taken from the article. The article states 2 tests were conducted. One test was for the army as it states the same. The Army version is for the NorthEast.
> 
> "Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the Army and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare.
> 
> The army has plans of deploying this missile regiment in the Northeast along the borders with China and the proposal was accorded sanction in a Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting last year."



Overland 'pop up' manoeuvre. So? The rationale for high diving and its use stands.

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## surya kiran

Penguin said:


> Overland 'pop up' manoeuvre. So? The rationale for high diving and its use stands.



Please do notice my response was to your suggestion that the steep dive is for the air launched version. Its for the land launched version which is deployed.


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## Penguin

surya kiran said:


> Please do notice my response was to your suggestion that the steep dive is for the air launched version. Its for the land launched version which is deployed.




I think it is most commonly used with airlaunched weapons, yes. All Harpoon variants (whether AGM, RGM or UGM) likely can perform/withstand high diving. Still, this is most likely to actually occur with the AGM version. 

Also, for a surface launched missile (whether from ship, submarine or ground vehicle or silo) to be able to high dive it first needs to climb to a starting altitude. That is different with an airlaunched version. It reduces range, for starters.

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## bloo

Penguin said:


> No issue. Although it is quite common for antiship missiles to fly a preprogrammed flightpath, including twists and turns, I'm a bit puzzled by the use of the term 'manoeuvers' as this suggest something other than a preprogrammed (waypoint using) path and rather something reactive.




We have to note that BrahMos takes around 5 minutes to strike its target, therefore a realtime guidance system like GPS and an active radar et cetera is employed in it.
Air Weapons: BrahMos
It was noted that


> ""The Block II BrahMos missile was successfully launched at 1030 hours this morning," said an official of Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO).
> 
> The vertically launched missile took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan."


Brahmos Missile Tests - IDP Sentinel

We exactly don't know the parameters at which it was fired, but the gist of it all is that a real time guidance system is present in the BrahMos.
This is confirmed by the fact that BrahMos Block-2 had to identify a building among a cluster of buildings in an urban environment which it did.
This must mean a real time guidance software is used, coz I doubt DSMAC or TERCOM will be able to attack with this acuity, BrahMos is a fire and forget missile after all.
Which means yes BrahMos can act as per the situation and can react independently as per the guidance data.
BRAHMOS Mark II is ready for induction :: BrahMos.com




> The new Brahmos variant poses a serious threat to any aircraft carrier being targeted, not just because it can dive down vertically with very high kinetic energy, but also because it can be fired in a salvo and has the ability to pick the carrier in a carrier group and perform a co-ordinated attack on it!
> 
> The Pravda had earlier reported that "the missiles are so clever that they not only detect a target but develop a plan of attack based on the enemy's air defense. They know exactly which target is the primary one, which of them is an attacker and which is a defender. When the main target is destroyed, they re-prioritize and continue with the attack. Now even more advanced missile is on the way."


Deadly Brahmos Variant with Co-ordinated Aircraft Carrier Attack Capability Developed





Penguin said:


> We commonly categorize weapons by their function and capability. Everything else is detail (this discussion is not about one missile or another being 'common' > what does that mean in this context: used by many navies, 'ordinary?)



What I meant to say was that an Exocet or a Tomahawk will not be able to maneuver like the BrahMos and neither will their trajectories be the same as BrahMos'.
So comparing BrahMos in a traditional sense won't exactly yield a rational explanation.




Penguin said:


> How so? To keep a launching aircraft safe it should preferbly stay outside of SAM range. This can be done either by employing a long range missile (horizontal plane) or by flying at high altitude (vertical plane). Recall SM2 block II/III roughly 120km range to 25km altitude, for example. When launching closer in but from altitude, high diving is the logical missile flight path. If you surface launch and your missile is not a sea skimmer, it first has to climb on its own to altitude and then dive (i.e. pop up manoeuvre). This applies for a sub-, ship- or landlaunched antiship missile. It would seem logical if it also applies to a landlaunched land-attack missile





Well that is what your link said.


> The High-Diver maneuver is the typical pattern of the missile from an aircraft to a ship.


http://www.ijcas.org/admin/paper/files/IJCAS_v5_n4_pp.456-462.pdf


And since we have gone there, BrahMos unlike Tomahawk or any other subsonic cruise missile can accelerate faster, this is proved by the fact that it reaches its target in less than 5 minutes, which is to say that it remains supersonic for the majority of the flight.
Therefore BrahMos has a faster rate of climb, cruise phase and decent.

Actually its quite possible that a cruise missile sea skims during the cruise phase in a pop-up maneuver and then at the necessary distance rises up to acquire momentum and dive down to perform the kill.



> The initial position of the missile is at
> about 9 km distance apart from the origin. During
> ship-to-ship engagement, the trajectory of the antiship missile consists of the cruising phase and the
> final phase. It is assumed in simulation that the popup maneuver happens in the final phase with 4 km
> distance after the sea-skimming flight is maintained in
> the cruising phase with 5 km distance.


http://www.ijcas.org/admin/paper/files/IJCAS_v5_n4_pp.456-462.pdf

Figure 2 shows a graph of a pop-up maneuver where the ASCM sea-skims a height of less than 20m in the cruise phase and after 4km rises up to acquire momentum and dives down to perform the kill.



Penguin said:


> And actually a vertical diving variant _will be offered_ to the navy ...



Actually the latest test(33rd) of the BrahMos from the stealth frigate INS Teg, featured a supersonic steep diving variant, which probably means the navy has inducted it.



Penguin said:


> So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says



True.
Though as we know it BrahMos aerospace is striving for a universal cruise missile system.
So the steep diving variant will be available for both Indian Navy and the Army.
The article I posted also said this,


> "We have achieved the capability to attack aircraft carriers using the supersonic vertical diving variant of the missile and after demonstrating the capability recently with high precision, we will now offer this to the Indian Navy," BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here today.
> 
> He was asked to comment on the recent two successful test firings of the missile.
> 
> Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the army and after its success the path is clear for the induction of the
> fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare.


BrahMos develops anti-aircraft carrier variant of the missile :: BrahMos.com


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## bloo

Penguin said:


> So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says



BrahMos' main goal is to achieve a universal cruise missile system status.
Therefore yes the steep diving variant exists both in the LACM and ASCM variants of BrahMos.

The link I gave confirms both my claims.


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## AUSTERLITZ

I know i will be trolled for this,but the fact is that our 'freindly' neighbours are afraid of brahmos,especially the navies.Thats why you see these 'counter/answer to brahmos' threads popping up regularly.


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## Shinigami

I found this interesting 



> *The missile performed high-level manoeuvres at two given points in a scenario of evading detection by enemies' radars* and successfully hit the target ship at a distance of 290 Kms. The decommissioned target ship was completely devastated by the huge kinetic energy of impact. By the time naval helicopter reached the target point, the ship was completely on fire.


BRAHMOS hits bull's eye on the target from INS Teg :: BrahMos.com

dint know it could do that


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## bloo

Shinigami said:


> I found this interesting
> 
> 
> BRAHMOS hits bull's eye on the target from INS Teg :: BrahMos.com
> 
> dint know it could do that




Oh yes it can do that and much more.....

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## Penguin

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I know i will be trolled for this,but the fact is that our 'freindly' neighbours are afraid of brahmos,especially the navies.Thats why you see these 'counter/answer to brahmos' threads popping up regularly.



Balony. You get such answer because of trying to make it sound like a Indian wunderwaffe, which is isn't. Its dangerous, but so is Oniks/Yakhont, Klub or Moskit. Also, there is a counter to every threat (and if there isn't now, one will soon be developed: this is the nature of military technology development)


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## AUSTERLITZ

Of course therea re counters,but not in the neighbourhood,especially against salvo launches from air and sea.

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## Viper0011.

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Of course therea re counters,but not in the neighbourhood,especially against salvo launches from air and sea.



That's an interesting assumption on your part. Hope you don't sit in Indian military's hq. Sentiments like these may cause a massive war to start that may not be stopped unless hundreds of millions of humans suffer. This region is a flashpoint.


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## bloo

Penguin said:


> Balony. You get such answer because of trying to make it sound like a Indian wunderwaffe, which is isn't. Its dangerous, but so is Oniks/Yakhont, Klub or Moskit. Also, there is a counter to every threat (and if there isn't now, one will soon be developed: this is the nature of military technology development)



Of course people will have to say that or their fear and monotony will kill them.
True there will always be methods of deterrence, but the fact is that "NOW" the BrahMos is a step ahead regardless of what anyone thinks.
As for tech development........
BrahMos2 has already been tested at mach 6.5


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## IND151

bloo said:


> Of course people will have to say that or their fear and monotony will kill them.
> True there will always be methods of deterrence, but the fact is that "NOW" the BrahMos is a step ahead regardless of what anyone thinks.
> As for tech development........
> *BrahMos2 has already been tested at mach 6.5*



??????????????????


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## bloo

IND151 said:


> ??????????????????



Brahmos 2 Hypersonic missile production to complete by 2017 - Army Technology
Brahmos achieves Mach 6.5 speed during lab test - Indian Express
Brahmos achieves Mach 6.5 speed during test - India - IBNLive


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## Penguin

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Of course therea re counters,but not in the neighbourhood,especially against salvo launches from air and sea.


Let me know when you are ready to be serious again.



bloo said:


> Of course people will have to say that or their fear and monotony will kill them.
> True there will always be methods of deterrence, but the fact is that "NOW" the BrahMos is a step ahead regardless of what anyone thinks.
> As for tech development........
> BrahMos2 has already been tested at mach 6.5


Fear and monotony? WTF?!@

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## Penguin

> Fiscal Year 2000 activity included initial test flights for the DT at the White Sands Missile
> Range. The DT consists of firing both control test vehicles (CTVs) and guidance test vehicles (GTVs). CTVs are ESSMs with inert guidance sections programmed to execute maneuver patterns. GTVs are ESSMs with guidance sections for homing on targets. The fourth CTV flight test was conducted in November 1999. The first GTV flight test was conducted as a combined CTV/GTV flight in March 2000. GTV-2 was fired at a sub-sonic target drone in July 2000. _GTV-3 was fired at a supersonic target in August 200*0*._ GTV-4 was fired at a maneuvering target drone in November 2000. GTV-5 was fired at a low altitude, close-range, sub-sonic target in December 2000.


http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2000/pdf/00essm.pdf



> TUCSON, Ariz., (March 27, 200*2*) Raytheon Evolved SEASPARROW missile intercepts supersonic target at sea
> 
> "The primary reason for developing the Evolved SEASPARROW is to defend against the modern supersonic threats. This test shows that the missile can intercept this type of anti-ship target," said Gary Hagedon, Raytheon's ESSM program director.


Raytheon Evolved SEASPARROW missile intercepts supersonic target at sea 



> On April 4, 2012, the Forbin Air Defense Destroyer destroyed a supersonic target simulating an antiship missile at very low altitude. The target, a GQM 163A Coyote, was launched from the French Military's Missile Test Center based on the island of Levant (French Riviera). The Forbin, head of Horizon class AAW Destroyer, intercepted the target in flight with its Aster 30 missile while Chevalier Paul, second ship of Horizon class, was tracking both the target and the missiles launched by Forbin.


French Navy's Air Warfare Destroyers successfully intercept supersonic sea-skimming target
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/actualit...e-cible-supersonique-evoluant-au-ras-de-l-eau.



> France tests its ship defense with U.S. Navys Supersonic Sea Skimming Target
> 
> Apr 11, 2012
> 
> NAVAL AIR SYSTEMS COMMAND, PATUXENT RIVER, Md.  As part of a foreign military sales case, the U.S. Navy worked together with French military to execute Frances first aerial-target live-fire event using a GQM-163A Coyote Supersonic Sea Skimming Target (SSST), or missile, on April 4.
> 
> Frances military procurement agency Delegation Generale Pour L'Armement (DGA) worked with representatives from the Navy Aerial Target and Decoy Systems program office (PMA-208) and Orbital Sciences Corporation (OSC) of Chandler, Ariz., to provide the GQM-163A SSST for a live presentation on a military test range off the coast of France.
> 
> The foreign military sales case, which began in 2006, included procurement of one GQM-163A SSST, lease of support equipment and range integration. DGA, NAVAIR and OSC stood up the SSST launch capability on the Mediterranean island of Levant in 2011, one of only three GQM-163A launch sites worldwide.
> 
> Such a complex test would not have been possible without the expertise and will of a whole and diverse team, made of people from NAVAIR, Point Mugu, Orbital, the U.S. Embassy in Paris, the French Navy, the French Missile test center, the French Embassy in Washington and many others, said Col. Mathieu Fossat, assistant Defense Cooperation attaché for French naval and air systems.
> 
> _During this highly technical test, a first for Europe, the target was used to simulate an anti-ship cruise missile threat whose speed and evasive maneuvers compress the amount of time a defense system has to react. Shortly after the target launched, a French air defense destroyer, Forbin, intercepted the Coyote target with an Aster 30 surface-to-air missile._
> 
> Clay Myers, PMA-208 FMS lead who witnessed last weeks launch, said he and the team received positive feedback from French representatives on site. The target was in the green zone for the duration of the flight, meaning it was where it was expected to be, he added.
> 
> We are pleased the SSST presentation was useful to DGAs evaluation effort and look forward to working with them in the future, said Capt. Dan McNamara, PMA-208 program manager. The entire team of French and U.S. professionals who worked for the past five years to achieve this success should be congratulated.


France tests its ship defense with U.S. Navy

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## Penguin

> On February 21, 2008 at 3:26 am (UTC) the USS Lake Erie, a Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser, fired a single SM-3 missile, hit and successfully destroyed the satellite, with a closing velocity of about 22,783 mph (36,667 km/h) while the satellite was 247 kilometers (133 nautical miles) above the Pacific Ocean


RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Navy Hits Satellite With Heat-Seeking Missile | Space.com

mach 6 is ´only´about 7350 km/h

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## bloo

Penguin said:


> Fear and monotony? WTF?!@



Yes its exactly what I said.
And its not just the speed of the BrahMos that makes it unique, but also the advanced guidance system, ECCM features, advanced seeker, compatibility with real time C4I systems, intense maneuverability, various trajectories, robust AI et cetra.
So it is not just a dumb simulated target that an anti air system can simply take out, maybe a large salvo can.

FYI the intended speed of BrahMos-2 is mach-7 and will have scramjet engine.


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## Gessler

Penguin said:


> Balony. You get such answer because of trying to make it sound like a Indian wunderwaffe, which is isn't. Its dangerous, but so is Oniks/Yakhont, Klub or Moskit. Also, there is a counter to every threat (and if there isn't now, one will soon be developed: this is the nature of military technology development)



And the advent of a counter-measure does not nullify the effect of the weapon in question.

By the time PN possibly inducts and operationalises ESSM, you'll most probably see IN warships with
nice Mach 7 sustained speed SCRAMJET cruise missiles - most possibly difficult to detect with radar
too.

The only countries to have recieved Sea Sparrow thus far are very close in both military & economic
matters to the US. I dont think US will allow sale of ESSM to PN knowing it could lead to tech leaks into
China. Besides, US-Pak relations have not been going very nice since last couple
of years even to think US will sell such a sophisticated defence system that forms part of
the US Navy Aegis.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Arre most important question are they even getting sm-2?i have not seen a single link that definitively says so. I doubt very much coz usa knows technology will end up in chinese ships.


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## Teeta

gessler said:


> And the advent of a counter-measure does not nullify the effect of the weapon in question.
> 
> By the time PN possibly inducts and operationalises ESSM, you'll most probably see IN warships with
> nice Mach 7 sustained speed *SCRAMJET* cruise missiles - most possibly difficult to detect with radar
> too.
> 
> The only countries to have recieved Sea Sparrow thus far are very close in both military & economic
> matters to the US. I dont think US will allow sale of ESSM to PN knowing it could lead to tech leaks into
> China. Besides, US-Pak relations have not been going very nice since last couple
> of years even to think US will sell such a sophisticated defence system that forms part of
> the US Navy Aegis.



Mach 7 is not scramjet speed....jus sayin


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## bloo

Teeta said:


> Mach 7 is not scramjet speed....jus sayin


Actually it depends on the parameters of the vehicle.
Besides BrahMos-2 will probably be a ramjet-scarmjet hybrid.


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## Teeta

bloo said:


> Actually it depends on the parameters of the vehicle.
> Besides BrahMos-2 will probably be a ramjet-scarmjet hybrid.



Well Russians can pull scram-jet speeds but they aren't reliable. Secondly, what is the speed of proposed Brahmos-2 missile is? Any idea? 

India's main fighter would carry only 1 Brahmos , why is that? Su-30 is a freakin' huge aircraft but only 1 ALCM? Tell Russians to improve their quality and decrease the weight of the weapon...lol


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## Penguin

gessler said:


> And the advent of a counter-measure does not nullify the effect of the weapon in question.
> 
> By the time PN possibly inducts and operationalises ESSM, you'll most probably see IN warships with
> nice Mach 7 sustained speed SCRAMJET cruise missiles - most possibly difficult to detect with radar
> too.
> 
> The only countries to have recieved Sea Sparrow thus far are very close in both military & economic
> matters to the US. I dont think US will allow sale of ESSM to PN knowing it could lead to tech leaks into
> China. Besides, US-Pak relations have not been going very nice since last couple
> of years even to think US will sell such a sophisticated defence system that forms part of
> the US Navy Aegis.



It has been possible to intercept supersonic targets for quite some time (i.e. low lfying jets). The point is that is was already possible to hit supersonic missiles 10 years ago. Heck, even Goalkeeper CIWS has been able to do that. The difficulty is in timely target detection. The advent of missiles like RAM, ESSM points to efforts to expands the intercept range outward (relative to gunbased systems), not in the last place because the debris of destroyed incoming supersonic missiles still poses a KE-threat to a ship.



bloo said:


> Yes its exactly what I said.
> And its not just the speed of the BrahMos that makes it unique, but also the advanced guidance system, ECCM features, advanced seeker, compatibility with real time C4I systems, intense maneuverability, various trajectories, robust AI et cetra.
> So it is not just a dumb simulated target that an anti air system can simply take out, maybe a large salvo can.
> 
> FYI the intended speed of BrahMos-2 is mach-7 and will have scramjet engine.


Ok, you win, Brahmos is an invincible superweapon. Good day.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> Arre most important question are they even getting sm-2?i have not seen a single link that definitively says so. I doubt very much coz usa knows technology will end up in chinese ships.



Perhaps if you has actually followed the thread from the start, you would realize that that was the conclusion.

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## bloo

Penguin said:


> Ok, you win, Brahmos is an invincible superweapon. Good day.




Ah the good ol condescension.


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## Penguin

Teeta said:


> India's main fighter would carry only 1 Brahmos , why is that? Su-30 is a freakin' huge aircraft but only 1 ALCM? Tell Russians to improve their quality and decrease the weight of the weapon...lol



Well, Brahmos is a 3ton missile. As compared to some 900kg for the Kh-59 AShM (3 carried), 600kg for Kh-31 ARM (up to 6 carried) and Kh-35 AShM (up to 4 carried) by the Su-30mki (which can take 8 tons of external stores, compared to F-15Es 10 tons).
Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



bloo said:


> Ah the good ol condescension.



http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/how-to-have-an-open-minded/

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## xyxmt

freaking kids dont know ***** about anything and arguing like they designed the products

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## bloo

Yeah do take a few points out of those, it may help u from going


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## Gessler

Penguin said:


> It has been possible to intercept supersonic targets for quite some time (i.e. low lfying jets). The point is that is was already possible to hit supersonic missiles 10 years ago. Heck, even Goalkeeper CIWS has been able to do that. The difficulty is in timely target detection. The advent of missiles like RAM, ESSM points to efforts to expands the intercept range outward (relative to gunbased systems), not in the last place because the debris of destroyed incoming supersonic missiles still poses a KE-threat to a ship.



Sure even AK-630M and Phalanx can intercept ASCMs, and so can ESSM and even 
IN's Barak-1. But as a matter of fact, no system in the world can guarentee a 100% interception 
rate. IN's P-17 frigate has 2 x AK-630Ms and 32 x Barak-1 missiles to intercept inbound 
ASCMs, this however does not make Shivalik FFG immune to missiles like C-802 or 
AGM-84 Harpoon.

Same applies for ESSM-equipped warships, they are not immune to BrahMos or Yakhont, 
or even the Sunburn. Thats what I said "*And the advent of a counter-measure does not 
nullify the effect of the weapon in question*."



xyxmt said:


> freaking kids dont know ***** about anything and arguing like they designed the products



The only kid around here is you who's making childish comments.


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## xyxmt

^^^ on a good day if luck has it even a bird can intercept it

this conversation reminds me of the conversation i heard between three villager back when sky lab was falling. Aslam asked Rustum where he think shy lab will fall, Rustum said it depends on the direction of wind, if wind is going to east then it may fall on Akram's house but if its going from east to west it my just fall on Rustum's house. keep it up Rustum


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## Gessler

xyxmt said:


> ^^^ on a good day if luck has it even a bird can intercept it



What you fail to realise is that the reverse is more possible to happen than otherwise.



> this conversation reminds me of the conversation i heard between three villager back when sky lab was falling. Aslam asked Rustum where he think shy lab will fall, Rustum said it depends on the direction of wind, if wind is going to east then it may fall on Akram's house but if its going from east to west it my just fall on Rustum's house. keep it up Rustum



I wasn't even born when SkyLab was falling so I fail to see the funny part. Although I advise you to pay
attention to the part as to where SkyLab really fell.


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## Gentelman

Heyyyyy i suppose there is another thread already running for BarhMos.........go there...


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## Penguin

gessler said:


> Sure even AK-630M and Phalanx can intercept ASCMs, and so can ESSM and even
> IN's Barak-1. But as a matter of fact, no system in the world can guarentee a 100% interception
> rate. IN's P-17 frigate has 2 x AK-630Ms and 32 x Barak-1 missiles to intercept inbound
> ASCMs, this however does not make Shivalik FFG immune to missiles like C-802 or
> AGM-84 Harpoon.
> 
> Same applies for ESSM-equipped warships, they are not immune to BrahMos or Yakhont,
> or even the Sunburn. Thats what I said "*And the advent of a counter-measure does not
> nullify the effect of the weapon in question*."



Tell that to your noob collegue, who seems to think Brahmos (or any supersonic AShM for that matter) is unbeatable (and won't accept alternate or more nuanced views).


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## Awesome

It talks up its capability to kill sea-skimming missiles - Brahmos flies high so it would be easier.

However - I would wait for CLEAR indication that the SM-2 is being sold to the PN.


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## Gessler

Penguin said:


> Tell that to your noob collegue, who seems to think Brahmos (or any supersonic AShM for that matter) is unbeatable (and won't accept alternate or more nuanced views).



People say what they want to say, I have already said in my post that no missile is invincible and
similarly no missile can be intercepted all the time.



Asim Aquil said:


> It talks up its capability to kill sea-skimming missiles - Brahmos flies high so it would be easier.
> 
> However - I would wait for CLEAR indication that the SM-2 is being sold to the PN.



I expected better knowlegde out of an admin - who is telling you that BrahMos cannot sea-skim?

Just because it *can* climb to an altitude of upto 14-15km does not mean it stays up there all
the time. It can seaskim just as well as Harpoon or Klub for that matter, albeit with lesser speed of
about 2.2 Mach.


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## Awesome

How come you didn't compare it with a CM? There in lies the answer to what I think about its terrain-hugging capabilities - hence it may be shot down by a missile claiming to shoot terrain-hugging missiles.


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## Gessler

Asim Aquil said:


> How come you didn't compare it with a CM? There in lies the answer to what I think about its terrain-hugging capabilities - hence it may be shot down by a missile claiming to shoot terrain-hugging missiles.



First of all, stop comparing LACM to ASCM and claiming one is better because of this/that.

BrahMos Block-II/III LACMs can fly at low altitude quite well, but the problem is the wont be able to exceed subsonic to transonic speeds and just a little above Mach 1 because at low altitude they need to remain agile enough to evade terrain. More speed = less agility (dont confuse maneuverability with agility whatsover).

---

BrahMos Block-I ASCM is a whole different story, it can sea-skim very well because out at the sea, there are no obstacles to evade in order to kill the ship, therefore it can fly at low altitude at upto Mach 2.2-2.5.

Terrain-hugging however is not the aspect BrahMos Block-II/III were designed around. They are designed for speed and supporting accuracy, and coming to the Block-III, it has supersonic steep dive - meaning it will fly at high altitude of ~15km and then make a sudden dive at the target location at max supersonic speed of Mach 3 - useful for striking targets located inside valleys or such terrain, where CMs like BGM-109 Tomahawk or Babur cannot go.

Terrain-hugging and striking targets with a low-altitude approach is something that Nirbhay does, not BrahMos.

You shouldn't forget the aspect of reaction time and interception velocity which are important aspects to consider before saying this can intercept that.


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## Awesome

Brahmos at best comes close to sea level on its approach to the target like most other Anti-ship missiles of its class. You need true cruise ability for sustained travel at low altitudes. Its just that an anti-ship missile. Its a javelin with a rocket on it which can do some course correction for which it first ascends and positions itself and comes hurling down. Its fast yes, its not something fancy. A typical Russian weapon.

In its lob like flight path, there is a chance to hit it even at high speeds. You do know people are hitting ballistic missiles too which go much faster.

Of course reaction time is totally something else and depends upon the crew, the radar its equipped with... 

The question was asked was that how is it an answer to Brahmos? It says right there that it can be used in an anti-missile capacity as its primary role. It wouldn't matter that Brahmos has more range, if its detected on launch, anti-missile weapons can be launched as a response too.


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## Penguin

gessler said:


> First of all, stop comparing LACM to ASCM and claiming one is better because of this/that.


See post #218, which revived this thread after it went dormant in 2010.


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