# Domestic & Social Crimes [Mob/ Vigilante justice] Thread



## Meesna

> LAHORE, April 16: It is no longer just a doorbell for Mohammad Iqbal and his family; instead it has a ring of alarm about it. As a boy goes to answer the call the other inhabitants form a line of defence behind him should the visitor turn out to be an unwelcome one. Usually the door stays shut until the visitors identity is established and his intent known.
> 
> Its been like this since March 8 when four men kidnapped Iqbals teenage son Bilal and nephew Shiraz from Iqbals home in Madina Town, a middle class locality in Faisalabad, after robbing the household. The kidnappers told the boys later that their family had been targeted because of their Ahmedi faith.



DAWN.COM | Front Page | Govt silence sounds death knell for Faisalabad Ahmedis

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## Rafael

^ On march 31st, 3 people in Faisalabad were brutally killed for the same reason. I knew the guy personally along with his father and uncle. his daughter is just about 6-8 months. Now the effected family is planning to take asylum in Canada where most of the their family members have already settled.

A very unfortunate incident, and goes on to show intolerance of our society towards minorities.


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## T-Faz

This is very shameful, how can they let such despicable things happen. Things like this affect countries perception and *this should not happen*.

People can follow any religion and choose what they want to do, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of our country has laid out the perfect plan and if we do not follow it, we are doomed to suffer. He said people should have the freedom to follow whichever religion that want and it is not us who should judge other on what they are and what they do. I and every pious, respectable pakistani will believe in this and not the murderers who have killed many in our own nation and have tarnished our image.

End of Story.

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## rubyjackass

> Though there is no evidence, *the murdered victims family suspects it to be the work of a militant group known for its involvement in the Kashmir jehad*. Our family is respected and we have no dispute with anyone. The murderers were trained in the use of arms and were well informed about the movement of their target, a relative of the murdered businessmen, who does not give his name, tells Dawn. Dr Rashid Karim is a homoeopath who was kidnapped last May, taken to the tribal areas, and released after more than five months on payment of Rs10 million. He says his kidnappers had tried to grill him about Ashraf Pervaiz.


Point to note.

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## Kompromat

Everyday hundered's of kidnap rape and murder incidents happen in Pakistan and they do not come to Dawn news or mainstream media but they are burried forever.

something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities.. By having said that i am not denying that mistreatment with minorities does not exist but what i am worried about is that Why Minorities and mormal Pakistanis are treated differently and why normal Pakistanis do not get well deserved publicity ?

pope benedict starts talking about Christians under persecusion in Pakistan because he has been fed by BS propegenda of christian leader mr Bhatti who openly supports BLA and calls Pakistan a terrorist nation .

he is not being charged neither GOP has denied pope's allegations.
why dont people understand that the country is at war and no one speaks of 30 thousand innocent Pakistani civilians killed on the streets but they do talk about few Pakistani sikhs being kidnapped and killed or in this case ahmadis or christians.

The country belongs to everyone who calls himself a pakistani and when other fellow Muslims are paying sacrifices for Nation what is so wrong with minorities ?

They must understand it but if ahmadis feel that they are not safe here i guess their Masters and creators ie Brits and Canadians are quite welcoming to the enemies of Islam and they should leave this intollerent society.
regards

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## Hammy007

and wtf is that its writen they are targetted becoz of ahmadi faith???, first their house was robbed, its the plain case of robbery and nothing more. its strange the robbers are not demanding the ransom and have said its becoz of theor faith.

ahmadis are not muslims but that doesnt make them minority like sikhs and christians, they still believe some things from islam like shias do..


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## Areesh

Black Blood said:


> Everyday hundered's of kidnap rape and murder incidents happen in Pakistan and they do not come to Dawn news or mainstream media but they are burried forever.
> 
> something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities.. By having said that i am not denying that mistreatment with minorities does not exist but what i am worried about is that Why Minorities and mormal Pakistanis are treated differently and why normal Pakistanis do not get well deserved publicity ?
> 
> pope benedict starts talking about Christians under persecusion in Pakistan because he has been fed by BS propegenda of christian leader mr Bhatti who openly supports BLA and calls Pakistan a terrorist nation .
> 
> he is not being charged neither GOP has denied pope's allegations.
> why dont people understand that the country is at war and no one speaks of 30 thousand innocent Pakistani civilians killed on the streets but they do talk about few Pakistani sikhs being kidnapped and killed or in this case ahmadis or christians.
> 
> The country belongs to everyone who calls himself a pakistani and when other fellow Muslims are paying sacrifices for Nation what is so wrong with minorities ?
> 
> They must understand it but if ahmadis feel that they are not safe here i guess their Masters and creators ie Brits and Canadians are quite welcoming to the enemies of Islam and they should leave this intollerent society.
> regards



Exactly sir. A post that summarizes the topic.

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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> Everyday hundered's of kidnap rape and murder incidents happen in Pakistan and they do not come to Dawn news or mainstream media but they are burried forever.
> 
> something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities.. By having said that i am not denying that mistreatment with minorities does not exist but what i am worried about is that Why Minorities and mormal Pakistanis are treated differently and why normal Pakistanis do not get well deserved publicity ?
> 
> pope benedict starts talking about Christians under persecusion in Pakistan because he has been fed by BS propegenda of christian leader mr Bhatti who openly supports BLA and calls Pakistan a terrorist nation .
> 
> he is not being charged neither GOP has denied pope's allegations.
> why dont people understand that the country is at war and no one speaks of 30 thousand innocent Pakistani civilians killed on the streets but they do talk about few Pakistani sikhs being kidnapped and killed or in this case ahmadis or christians.
> 
> The country belongs to everyone who calls himself a pakistani and when other fellow Muslims are paying sacrifices for Nation what is so wrong with minorities ?
> 
> They must understand it but if ahmadis feel that they are not safe here i guess their Masters and creators ie Brits and Canadians are quite welcoming to the enemies of Islam and they should leave this intollerent society.
> regards



Do you see Bhagat singh on the killer?

There are hundreds of temples and churches are attacked and destroyed in pakistan. But just one babri masjid demoslished is a pain for you right?

See the news 

The Ramna Kali Mandir (Bangla: &#2480;&#2478;&#2472;&#2494; &#2453;&#2494;&#2482;&#2496; &#2478;&#2472;&#2509;&#2470;&#2495;&#2480, also known as the Ramna Kalibari (house of the Hindu Goddess Kali) was one of the most famous Hindu temples of the Indian subcontinent. It was believed to be *over a thousand years old* and was situated in Dhaka (capital of present day Bangladesh on the outskirts of the Ramna Park (now renamed as Suhrawardy Udyan). *The temple was bulldozed by the Pakistan Army on 27 March 1971 as it commenced its genocide during the Bangladesh Liberation War.*


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## Hyde

indian_warrior said:


> Do you see Bhagat singh on the killer?
> 
> There are hundreds of temples and churches are attacked and destroyed in pakistan. But just one babri masjid demoslished is a pain for you right?
> 
> See the news
> 
> The Ramna Kali Mandir (Bangla: &#2480;&#2478;&#2472;&#2494; &#2453;&#2494;&#2482;&#2496; &#2478;&#2472;&#2509;&#2470;&#2495;&#2480, also known as the Ramna Kalibari (house of the Hindu Goddess Kali) was one of the most famous Hindu temples of the Indian subcontinent. It was believed to be *over a thousand years old* and was situated in Dhaka (capital of present day Bangladesh on the outskirts of the Ramna Park (now renamed as Suhrawardy Udyan). *The temple was bulldozed by the Pakistan Army on 27 March 1971 as it commenced its genocide during the Bangladesh Liberation War.*



nice lame excuses ........ and who verified it that Pakistan army demolished it?

and have a visit in Pakistan and see how temples are well protected. Go to Katas Raj (i have been there myself). Katas is one prime example of your temples that was built by the Pandava's brothers of Mahabharat.

Katasraj temple - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And wikiepdia source is old. I have seen lots of construction work already been completed and also thousands of hindu pilgrimage visit this place very often


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## Kompromat

mr Indian worrior would you like to provide me links for those hundered's of churches that we destroyed ?


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## Hammy007

raheel1 said:


> ^ On march 31st, 3 people in Faisalabad were brutally killed for the same reason. I knew the guy personally along with his father and uncle. his daughter is just about 6-8 months. Now the effected family is planning to take asylum in Canada where most of the their family members have already settled.
> 
> A very unfortunate incident, and goes on to show intolerance of our society towards minorities.



and these types of killings are not common in punjab and rest of pakistan??????, c'mon man, we daily hear these news, how are you so sure, they are murdered for their different religion, maybe taking asylum in canada is what they did by taking advantage of the situation

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## Kompromat

If we Demolish Punja sahib would be equallant to Babri Mosque but come and see how much care we take of these places.

Waiting for your Links.


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> Everyday hundered's of kidnap rape and murder incidents happen in Pakistan and they do not come to Dawn news or mainstream media but they are burried forever.
> 
> something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities..



Actually no. Pakistan is different from most other states in the world; its officially, constitutionally, legally an apartheid state, It does not like its Ahmadis;



> ORDINANCE NO. XX OF 1984 PART II - AMENDMENT OF THE PAKISTAN PENAL CODE (ACT XLV OF 1860) (3) 298C... Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves &#8216;Ahmadis&#8217; or by any other name), who &#8230; invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or *in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine*.



In that Pakistan is no different from Israel in how it treats Palestinians or how South Africa treated its Blacks in apartheid years.

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## Areesh

Watch this Indian_Warrior


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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> Actually no. Pakistan is different from most other states in the world; its officially, constitutionally, legally an apartheid state, It does not like its Ahmadis;
> 
> 
> 
> In that Pakistan is no different from Israel in how it treats Palestinians or how South Africa treated its Blacks in apartheid years.



you like to cherry pick dont you?

Pakistan is an Islamic state which was created for Muslims only But allows Minorities to live in peace and co existance.

But it is crystal clear that ahmadis are a cult of propegenda created by their British dadies to divide Muslims and they succeeded to do so.

we the Pakistani muslims can live in peace with all religions but not with ahmadis as they are not exactly a religion but a bunch of thugs who dont even know what they are upto.

Thus they do not deserve a minority status of a proper religion and they are allowed to do whatever the sh!t they have to do ie worshiping their satanic masters in Rabwa and do not bring their crap in rest of the country.

Again the words are simple ahmadis are not very much wanted in Pakistan because they defy fundamentals of Pakistan.

if they cant live in Pakistan like normal citizens and within their limits they should bring few more fake cases to seek asylum in UK and Canada where they can live happily ever after.

Thanks

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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> mr Indian worrior would you like to provide me links for those hundered's of churches that we destroyed ?





> Number of Ahmadiyya Mosques demolished. 22
> Number of Ahmadiyya Mosques sealed by the authorities. 28
> Number of Ahmadiyya Mosques set on fire. 11
> Number of Ahmadiyya Mosques forcibly occupied. 14
> Number of Ahmadiyya Mosques, construction of which was barred by the authorities. 41



Summary of other events

This is recent under the damocratic government;

*Ahmadiyya mosque forecfully taken over by government - January 14, 2010:*
The Persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community: Monthly Newsreport - Ahmadiyya Persecution in Pakistan - January, 2010


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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> If we Demolish Punja sahib would be equallant to Babri Mosque but come and see how much care we take of these places.
> 
> Waiting for your Links.



Ramna Kali Mandir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Kompromat

Ahmadi temples are not allowed but only in their dedicated territories.

Mosques must not be used for Shirk that is why we take them back any objections ?

They should migrate to India to seek their roots in Qadiyan and continue their pagan activities there but not In an Islamic state.


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> you like to cherry pick dont you?
> 
> rant snipped...



You are no different from a white racist supermist...hardly worth an answer. 

All humans deserve the same human rights and due and fair process of law before they are termed guilty of anything. This is not the case in Ahmadiyya instance, instead this is Ahmadiyya persecution pure and simple. All persecutors come up with some BS excuses.

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## Kompromat

mr indian worrier i need the links of the destruction of 100's of churches In Pakistan as you said.

dont run from the topic provide me the proofs.

christians are just 2.7&#37; of our total population how can they build that many churches in the first place?


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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> you like to cherry pick dont you?
> 
> Pakistan is an Islamic state which was created for Muslims only But allows Minorities to live in peace and co existance.
> 
> But it is crystal clear that ahmadis are a cult of propegenda created by their British dadies to divide Muslims and they succeeded to do so.
> 
> *we the Pakistani muslims can live in peace with all religions* but not with ahmadis as they are not exactly a religion but a bunch of thugs who dont even know what they are upto.
> 
> Thus they do not deserve a minority status of a proper religion and they are allowed to do whatever the sh!t they have to do ie worshiping their satanic masters in Rabwa and do not bring their crap in rest of the country.
> 
> Again the words are simple ahmadis are not very much wanted in Pakistan because they defy fundamentals of Pakistan.
> 
> if they cant live in Pakistan like normal citizens and within their limits they should bring few more fake cases to seek asylum in UK and Canada where they can live happily ever after.
> 
> Thanks



See the news today

BBC News - Pakistan twin bomb attack targets refugees

At least 40 people have been killed and 60 hurt in a double suicide bombing at a registration point for the displaced in north-west Pakistan, police say.

The bombs detonated just minutes apart in the Kacha Pukha centre on the outskirts of the city of Kohat.

The attack hit a crowd of refugees waiting for food handouts.

More than a million people have been displaced in the tribal belt near the Afghan border, where the Pakistan army is fighting Islamist militants.

A local police spokesman, Khalid Omarzai, said two explosions took place within minutes of each other as food was being distributed.

*The BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Pakistan says the victims were Shia Muslims; a Sunni group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi has said it carried out the attacks.
*
Kacha Pukha offers shelter to people arriving from the Orakzai district, where the military has been fighting militants since the end of 2009.

About 210,000 civilians have been displaced, including nearly 50,000 who have fled their homes in the last month after ground troops moved into the area.

'Barbaric'

Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari condemned the attacks and ordered security to be stepped up to "protect people from terrorism incidents".

Map

An inquiry has been ordered into the incident, which defence minister Ahmad Mukhtar described as "highly barbaric and cowardly".

In a statement carried by the Associated Press of Pakistan, he said that terrorists wanted to destabilise the country but every effort would be made to eliminate them.

A spate of bomb attacks across Pakistan blamed on al-Qaeda and Taliban militants has killed more than 3,200 people in less than three years.

US President Barack Obama has called the tribal belt border area the most dangerous place on Earth.

Pakistan is a key ally in Washington's attempt to stabilise neighbouring Afghanistan.
*
You guys not able to tolerate other sect of muslim. Think about plight christians, hindus and sikhs.*


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> Everyday hundered's of kidnap rape and murder incidents happen in Pakistan and they do not come to Dawn news or mainstream media but they are burried forever.
> 
> something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities..



This is hardly something, happens all the time;

This are some incidents for just January 2010; The Persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community: Monthly Newsreport - Ahmadiyya Persecution in Pakistan - January, 2010

February 2010; The Persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community: Monthly Newsreport - Ahmadiyya persecution in Pakistan - February, 2010

A lot more can be seen here; The Persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

Another example of official discrimination and apartheid treatment by the state;

*PAKISTAN: The electoral process is self-contradictory and denies the Ahmadi minority its right to vote
*


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> Ahmadi temples are not allowed but only in their dedicated territories.
> 
> Mosques must not be used for Shirk that is why we take them back any objections ?
> 
> They should migrate to India to seek their roots in Qadiyan and continue their pagan activities there but not In an Islamic state.



Only a state living in dark age will do that, What sort of a stone age religion is this Islam of yours?

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## Areesh

Black Blood said:


> mr indian worrier i need the links of the destruction of 100's of churches In Pakistan as you said.
> 
> dont run from the topic provide me the proofs.
> 
> christians are just 2.7% of our total population how can they build that many churches in the first place?



Sir leave him. He has just return from afBANistan and looking at his attitude and rant looks like he is going there again permanently.


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## Hyde

Meesna said:


> Summary of other events
> 
> This is recent under the damocratic government;
> 
> *Ahmadiyya mosque forecfully taken over by government - January 14, 2010:*
> The Persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community: Monthly Newsreport - Ahmadiyya Persecution in Pakistan - January, 2010


personally you can call me racist when it comes to Ahmedis.

I am in great favour of co-existince with all other religions. I don't mind if there are 5000 churches, 5000 temples and 5000 other places of worship in Pakistan but i would mind if there are 5000 Ahmedi's so-called mosques in Pakistan.

That is because Hinduism is a religion that is far far away from us. Chrisitianism is another religion that is not like us. Jewish are a different society and so are other like Zorastrinism. But when it come sto Ahmedis................. They are the ones who destroyed our own religion. They tried to corrupt our religion and i really feel sorry for them but at the same time would not allow them any kind of activities in Islamic republic of Pakistan. There is a tiny line between Muslims and Ahmedis and that line decides your whole faith. It decides whether you believe in the Last Prophet (PBUH) or you the fake prophets coming after him. I can write long article on it so i am stopping here.

Please Indians do us a favour please. Take all Ahmedis in your country and i am willing to pay you

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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> mr indian worrier i need the links of the destruction of 100's of churches In Pakistan as you said.
> 
> dont run from the topic provide me the proofs.
> 
> christians are just 2.7% of our total population how can they build that many churches in the first place?



Christianity in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On October 28, 2001 in Lahore, Pakistan, Islamic militants killed 15 Christians at a church, three weeks after U.S.-led War in Afghanistan to topple the Taliban.

On September 25, 2002, unidentified gunmen shot dead seven people at a Christian charity in Karachi's central business district. They entered the third-floor offices of the Institute for Peace and Justice (IPJ) and shot their victims in the head. All of the victims were Pakistani Christians. Karachi police chief Tariq Jamil said the victims had their hands tied and their mouths had been covered with tape.

The All Pakistan Minority Alliance said, "We have become increasingly victimised since the launch of the US-led international war on terror. It is, therefore, the responsibility of the international community to ensure that the government protects us."[13]

In November 2005, 3,000 militant Islamists attacked Christians in Sangla Hill in Pakistan and destroyed Roman Catholic, Salvation Army and United Presbyterian churches. The attack was over allegations of violation of blasphemy laws by a Pakistani Christian named Yousaf Masih. The attacks were widely condemned by some political parties in Pakistan.[14] However, Pakistani Christians have expressed disappointment that they have not received justice. Samson Dilawar, a parish priest in Sangla Hill, has said that the police have not committed to trial any of the people who were arrested for committing the assaults, and that the Pakistani government did not inform the Christian community that a judicial inquiry was underway by a local judge. He continued to say that Muslim clerics "make hateful speeches about Christians" and "continue insulting Christians and our faith".[15]

In February 2006, churches and Christian schools were targeted in protests over the publications of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons in Denmark, leaving two elderly women injured and many homes and properties destroyed. Some of the mobs were stopped by police.[16]

On June 5, 2006, a Pakistani Christian stonemason named Nasir Ashraf was working near Lahore when he drank water from a public facility using a glass chained to the facility. He was assaulted by Muslims for "Polluting the glass". A mob developed, who beat Ashraf, calling him a "Christian dog".Bystanders encouraged the beating, because it would be a "good" deed that would help them in heaven. Ashraf was eventually hospitalized[17][18].

On August 2006, a church and Christian homes were attacked in a village outside of Lahore, Pakistan in a land dispute. Three Christians were seriously injured and one missing after some 35 Muslims burned buildings, desecrated Bibles and attacked Christians.[19]

Based, in part, on such incidents, Pakistan was recommended by the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) in May 2006 to be designated as a "Country of Particular Concern" (CPC) by the Department of State.[19]

In January 2008 a Christian medical superintendent in Bannu was kidnapped and held for 25 days, according to the Barnabas Fund.[citation needed]

A tense calm returned on July 15 to the outskirts of Pakistan's largest city, Karachi, after several Christians, including a pastor, were injured when Muslim militants stormed a Protestant church during a prayer service, officials said.[citation needed]

The 2009 Gojra riots is the most recent series of violent pogroms against Christian minorities by Muslims.[20]


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> *we the Pakistani muslims can live in peace with all religions *


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## Areesh

indian_warrior said:


> Christianity in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> On October 28, 2001 in Lahore, Pakistan, Islamic militants killed 15 Christians at a church, three weeks after U.S.-led War in Afghanistan to topple the Taliban.
> 
> On September 25, 2002, unidentified gunmen shot dead seven people at a Christian charity in Karachi's central business district. They entered the third-floor offices of the Institute for Peace and Justice (IPJ) and shot their victims in the head. All of the victims were Pakistani Christians. Karachi police chief Tariq Jamil said the victims had their hands tied and their mouths had been covered with tape.
> 
> The All Pakistan Minority Alliance said, "We have become increasingly victimised since the launch of the US-led international war on terror. It is, therefore, the responsibility of the international community to ensure that the government protects us."[13]
> 
> In November 2005, 3,000 militant Islamists attacked Christians in Sangla Hill in Pakistan and destroyed Roman Catholic, Salvation Army and United Presbyterian churches. The attack was over allegations of violation of blasphemy laws by a Pakistani Christian named Yousaf Masih. The attacks were widely condemned by some political parties in Pakistan.[14] However, Pakistani Christians have expressed disappointment that they have not received justice. Samson Dilawar, a parish priest in Sangla Hill, has said that the police have not committed to trial any of the people who were arrested for committing the assaults, and that the Pakistani government did not inform the Christian community that a judicial inquiry was underway by a local judge. He continued to say that Muslim clerics "make hateful speeches about Christians" and "continue insulting Christians and our faith".[15]
> 
> In February 2006, churches and Christian schools were targeted in protests over the publications of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons in Denmark, leaving two elderly women injured and many homes and properties destroyed. Some of the mobs were stopped by police.[16]
> 
> On June 5, 2006, a Pakistani Christian stonemason named Nasir Ashraf was working near Lahore when he drank water from a public facility using a glass chained to the facility. He was assaulted by Muslims for "Polluting the glass". A mob developed, who beat Ashraf, calling him a "Christian dog".Bystanders encouraged the beating, because it would be a "good" deed that would help them in heaven. Ashraf was eventually hospitalized[17][18].
> 
> On August 2006, a church and Christian homes were attacked in a village outside of Lahore, Pakistan in a land dispute. Three Christians were seriously injured and one missing after some 35 Muslims burned buildings, desecrated Bibles and attacked Christians.[19]
> 
> Based, in part, on such incidents, Pakistan was recommended by the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) in May 2006 to be designated as a "Country of Particular Concern" (CPC) by the Department of State.[19]
> 
> In January 2008 a Christian medical superintendent in Bannu was kidnapped and held for 25 days, according to the Barnabas Fund.[citation needed]
> 
> A tense calm returned on July 15 to the outskirts of Pakistan's largest city, Karachi, after several Christians, including a pastor, were injured when Muslim militants stormed a Protestant church during a prayer service, officials said.[citation needed]
> 
> The 2009 Gojra riots is the most recent series of violent pogroms against Christian minorities by Muslims.[20]




So this is your list of *Hundreds of churches destroyed in Pakistan*. And the source is Wikipedia. You are a genius.


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## Hyde

Areesh said:


> So this is your list of *Hundreds of churches destroyed in Pakistan*. And the source is Wikipedia. You are a genius.



don't worry i removed his source from Wikipedia 

I edited Wikipedia page and removed this whole chapter

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## indian_warrior

Areesh said:


> So this is your list of *Hundreds of churches destroyed in Pakistan*. And the source is Wikipedia. You are a genius.



this report is from 2001 only and officially accepted.


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## jbond197

T-Faz said:


> Black blood, you damn coward Arab loving loser, do not and I mean do not ever again speak for all pakistanis with those despicable hate filled comments.
> 
> It's because of cowards like you we are in a mess, and once people like you pass then things will get better.
> 
> What a damn fool. Stupid extremist.



Thanks Mate! I think pakistan need tolerant people like you with respect to all minorities... you can not ask anybody to leave country simply coz you don't like them... tolerance is the key...

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## Hammy007

Meesna said:


> Summary of other events
> 
> This is recent under the damocratic government;
> 
> *Ahmadiyya mosque forecfully taken over by government - January 14, 2010:*
> The Persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community: Monthly Newsreport - Ahmadiyya Persecution in Pakistan - January, 2010



so you are ahmediya after all, lol


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## Meesna

Hammy007 said:


> so you are ahmediya after all, lol



Huh? How? No one else would dare speak for their rights?

Is that so?


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## dbc

Zaki said:


> Please Indians do us a favour please. Take all Ahmedis in your country and i am willing to pay you



They will likely be better off seems to me Indian law does a better job of protecting its minorities.




> Shall we then judge a country by the majority, or by the minority? By the minority, surely._RALPH WALDO EMERSON_





> In India, Ahmadis are considered to be Muslims. This belief is supported by a court verdict (Shihabuddin Koya vs. Ahammed Koya, A.I.R. 1971 Ker 206).There is no legislation that declares Ahmadis non-Muslims or limits their activities.-wiki


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## Hyde

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> They will likely be better off seems to me Indian law does a better job of protecting its minorities.



in india they can consider Ahmedis as Muslims however no Muslim scholar will ever declare them Muslim. It is like you are declaring Christian a Muslim. Ahmedis and Muslims are two different religions with 2 different foundations of their religions.

And like i said before i am happy to live with Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and other religions. But they "Ahmedis" have corrupted our religion and their activities cannot be acceptable to the majoritty of Muslims.

Simple

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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> Only a state living in dark age will do that, What sort of a stone age religion is this Islam of yours?



You have missed what i have said before "If they want to live in peace & co existance" They must abide by our Laws and stop acting against the state ie Qadiyanis with dual passports getting Training In Israel is quite an obvious reason why we should worry.

* Lets not start a religion war here , i will post something that will hurt you for the rest of the weekend so just stop it here.


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## Kompromat

indian_warrior said:


> this report is from 2001 only and officially accepted.



Which report sardar ji ??

Should i start the Operation Blue star Thread again ??

Hindus Slaughtered Sikhs in their holiest tample by the Hands of another Sikh WOW what a democratic , liberal , and secular Policy.

Sardar ji if you need ahmadis in India please take them.

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## Kompromat

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> They will likely be better off seems to me Indian law does a better job of protecting its minorities.



Thanks for the Kind info without looking into the matter


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> You have missed what i have said before "If they want to live in peace & co existance" They must abide by our Laws and stop acting against the state ie Qadiyanis with dual passports getting Training In Israel is quite an obvious reason why we should worry.



You need to prove all this in a court and why haven't you so far? You just can't make up any story you like and then start persecuting anyone like that. Like I said any persecutor will bring up any BS reason they want to, to justify persecution. 

I don't' see any such accusation in the government law below. Its religious persecution, pure and simple.



> ORDINANCE NO. XX OF 1984 PART II - AMENDMENT OF THE PAKISTAN PENAL CODE (ACT XLV OF 1860) (3) 298C... Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves &#8216;Ahmadis&#8217; or by any other name), who &#8230; invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or* in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine*.



---



> * Lets not start a religion war here , i will post something that will hurt you for the rest of the weekend so just stop it here.



Try me, oh pelase pelase...


----------



## Kompromat

I am waiting for Sardar Ji's Report when 100's of Churches were Burnt in Pakistan.


----------



## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> You need to prove all this in a court and why haven't you so far? You just can't make up any story you like and start persecuting anyone like that. Like I said any persecuter will bring up any BS reason they want to justify persecuiton.
> 
> Try me, oh pelase pelase...



Think before you speak:

Muslim reaction therefore did not subside in the post-amendment era. A new wave of resentment started in 1976 when* Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari, a veteran Muslim League leader quoted an extract from the book, 'Israel - A Profile' by a Jewish Professor I. T. Nomani, which said that there were 600 Ahmadis living in Israel had joined Israeli army.*


Rabwah denied the existence of such a Professor or the book. Rabwah further denied that any Pakistani Ahmadi ever had been in Israel or that any Ahmadi is in Israeli army. 

(Quoted in AlFazl Rabwah, 16 January, 11 February, 26 February and 13 April 1976) Maulana Ansari had however produced the book in a press conference which was printed by Pall Mall, London.

*And it was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, Ahmadiyya Missionary from Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Chaudhry Mohammed Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel.* 

*Other than this, all Qadiani missionaries posted in Israel since 1928 had been living in Rabwah:* J. D. Shams, Allah Ditta Jallendheri, Rashid Ahmad Chughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif. Their families had always been in contact with through questionable channels while they were abraod. (Ahmadiyya Movement - British Jewish Connections by Bashir Ahmad) 

Pakistani Muslims had always been sensitive towards the Zionist state and such news generated more hostilities between them and Qadianis. 

The issue of Ahmadiyya-Isreali collabration again figured in the Pakistani press in Feruary 1977 when an Urdu weekly published a picture from the weekly Jerusalem Post dated 9 October 1976 taken on the occassion of an Israeli function. A Qadiani delegation had called on the President of Israel and had photographs with him. in the picture were Israeli President, his advisor on minority affairs Mansur Kamal, Musa Odeh - a palestinian Qadiani and Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmadiyya Missionary in Israel. (Islami Jamhouriyah, Lahore, 2-8 January 1977; Weekly Lahore, Lahore, 14 February 1977) It proved that unlike other religious and ethnic minorities, Ahmadis had close relations with the Government of Israel. 




Now Speak , what should we do with Traitors !

Pakistani Constitution and Qadianis

Qadian and Israel

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## Hammy007

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> They will likely be better off seems to me Indian law does a better job of protecting its minorities.



really????, do you know anything about the demolition of babri mosque, massacre of muslims in gujrat???, the many christians murdered, sikh massare during khalistan movement etc etc, do you have any idea, seems like passing your judgements before gaining knowledge on the subject, pakistanis treat the minorities far better than indians although pakistani minorities comprises only 5&#37; man, and in indian more than 20%

btw indians will love to protect suleiman rusdi too.


PS: ahmadis fool many people who want to become muslims to embrace their ahmadi faith.


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## Kompromat

I am waiting for Meesna to Deny it , because this is all you can do !


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## Kompromat

Sardar ji Bolti band hogai hai kya ???

Where are my Links ????


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> Think before you speak:
> 
> Muslim reaction therefore did not subside in the post-amendment era. A new wave of resentment started in 1976 when* Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari, a veteran Muslim League leader quoted an extract from the book, 'Israel - A Profile' by a Jewish Professor I. T. Nomani, which said that there were 600 Ahmadis living in Israel had joined Israeli army.*
> 
> 
> Rabwah denied the existence of such a Professor or the book. Rabwah further denied that any Pakistani Ahmadi ever had been in Israel or that any Ahmadi is in Israeli army.
> 
> (Quoted in AlFazl Rabwah, 16 January, 11 February, 26 February and 13 April 1976) Maulana Ansari had however produced the book in a press conference which was printed by Pall Mall, London.
> 
> *And it was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, Ahmadiyya Missionary from Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Chaudhry Mohammed Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel.*
> 
> *Other than this, all Qadiani missionaries posted in Israel since 1928 had been living in Rabwah:* J. D. Shams, Allah Ditta Jallendheri, Rashid Ahmad Chughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif. Their families had always been in contact with through questionable channels while they were abraod. (Ahmadiyya Movement - British Jewish Connections by Bashir Ahmad)
> 
> Pakistani Muslims had always been sensitive towards the Zionist state and such news generated more hostilities between them and Qadianis.
> 
> The issue of Ahmadiyya-Isreali collabration again figured in the Pakistani press in Feruary 1977 when an Urdu weekly published a picture from the weekly Jerusalem Post dated 9 October 1976 taken on the occassion of an Israeli function. A Qadiani delegation had called on the President of Israel and had photographs with him. in the picture were Israeli President, his advisor on minority affairs Mansur Kamal, Musa Odeh - a palestinian Qadiani and Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmadiyya Missionary in Israel. (Islami Jamhouriyah, Lahore, 2-8 January 1977; Weekly Lahore, Lahore, 14 February 1977) It proved that unlike other religious and ethnic minorities, Ahmadis had close relations with the Government of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now Speak , what should we do with Traitors !
> 
> Pakistani Constitution and Qadianis
> 
> Qadian and Israel



Take all that to a court and get a judgement, and why haven't you so far? Not confident enough of your "evidence"?


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> I am waiting for Meesna to Deny it , because this is all you can do !



You need to go to a court to prove it buddy. When the state itself is persecuting Ahmadis you should not have any problem getting a judgment...if your "evidence" is not complete BS. So hurry up to your nearest court and give us the good news soon.


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## Hammy007

Meesna said:


> You need to go to a court to prove it buddy. When the state itself is persecuting Ahmadis you should not have any problem getting a judgment...if your "evidence" is not complete BS. So hurry up to your nearest court and give us the good news soon.



why the ""state"" would bother about these things, esp from the musharaf time, dont they have better jobs to do, you are just ranting like an indian, are you an indian??? now you are just humiliating your own country infront of non pakistani viewers and its such a shame really..


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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> Take all that to a court and get a judgement, and why haven't you so far? Not confident enough of your "evidence"?



Wont help because it wont stop ahmadis from spreading their propegenda against Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 10:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------




Hammy007 said:


> why the ""state"" would bother about these things, esp from the musharaf time, dont they have better jobs to do, you are just ranting like an indian, are you an indian??? now you are just humiliating your own country infront of non pakistani viewers and its such a shame really..



A flag wont change the Nationality.


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## Meesna

> *PAKISTAN: Two murdered and 15 charged as discrimination against Ahmadis continues unabated *
> 
> The Asian Human Rights Commission is concerned to find two cases this month in Pakistan's Punjab province that have targeted the Ahmadi minority sect. In one incident *fifteen men in Sargodha district have been charged for attending a place of worship that resembles a mosque*, after a complaint was lodged by a radical local religious leader. In Multan city a man and woman from the same sect have been found murdered. Both cases highlight the intense, often deadly discrimination experienced by minorities in Pakistan.



PAKISTAN: Two murdered and 15 charged as discrimination against Ahmadis continues unabated

What sort of a country would arrest anyone for praying in a "place of worship that resembles a mosque" in 21st century? How pathetic is that. Again no mention of any anti-sate activities but clearly just religious persecution.


----------



## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> Think before you speak:
> 
> Muslim reaction therefore did not subside in the post-amendment era. A new wave of resentment started in 1976 when* Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari, a veteran Muslim League leader quoted an extract from the book, 'Israel - A Profile' by a Jewish Professor I. T. Nomani, which said that there were 600 Ahmadis living in Israel had joined Israeli army.*
> 
> 
> Rabwah denied the existence of such a Professor or the book. Rabwah further denied that any Pakistani Ahmadi ever had been in Israel or that any Ahmadi is in Israeli army.
> 
> (Quoted in AlFazl Rabwah, 16 January, 11 February, 26 February and 13 April 1976) Maulana Ansari had however produced the book in a press conference which was printed by Pall Mall, London.
> 
> *And it was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, Ahmadiyya Missionary from Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Chaudhry Mohammed Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel.*
> 
> *Other than this, all Qadiani missionaries posted in Israel since 1928 had been living in Rabwah:* J. D. Shams, Allah Ditta Jallendheri, Rashid Ahmad Chughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif. Their families had always been in contact with through questionable channels while they were abraod. (Ahmadiyya Movement - British Jewish Connections by Bashir Ahmad)
> 
> Pakistani Muslims had always been sensitive towards the Zionist state and such news generated more hostilities between them and Qadianis.
> 
> The issue of Ahmadiyya-Isreali collabration again figured in the Pakistani press in Feruary 1977 when an Urdu weekly published a picture from the weekly Jerusalem Post dated 9 October 1976 taken on the occassion of an Israeli function. A Qadiani delegation had called on the President of Israel and had photographs with him. in the picture were Israeli President, his advisor on minority affairs Mansur Kamal, Musa Odeh - a palestinian Qadiani and Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmadiyya Missionary in Israel. (Islami Jamhouriyah, Lahore, 2-8 January 1977; Weekly Lahore, Lahore, 14 February 1977) It proved that unlike other religious and ethnic minorities, Ahmadis had close relations with the Government of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now Speak , what should we do with Traitors !
> 
> Pakistani Constitution and Qadianis
> 
> Qadian and Israel



I don't understan, whats wrong if ahemedis in israel joining isarel army. Thats their country. 

In india also there are army persons *muslims*, christian and sikhs.


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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> You need to go to a court to prove it buddy. When the state itself is persecuting Ahmadis you should not have any problem getting a judgment...if your "evidence" is not complete BS. So hurry up to your nearest court and give us the good news soon.



Last time i heard was Qadiyanis Running away from Debates , how would they even come to Courts ?

I was Just giving you a peep into "your" Anti Pakistan Activities and BTW all of those links were From Books and not an Internet creation.

Recently an israeli general written in his book that they are Providing Training to Qadiyanis to send them back to Pakistan.

I am trying to get hold of the Links to that if i could .


----------



## Kompromat

indian_warrior said:


> I don't understan, whats wrong if ahemedis in israel joining isarel army. Thats their country.
> 
> In india also there are army persons *muslims*, christian and sikhs.



Yes Muslims Cant Join both Zionist Armies of India and Israel since Ahmadis are non Muslims they are doing whatever they can to join the army of Dijjal.

BTW they were Pakistanis migrated to Israel.

Sardar ji app kay link kahan hain 

Be careful next time when spreading BS , have cup of cofee and go tell it to your BR friends they would believe in your fantacy theories.


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> Last time i heard was Qadiyanis Running away from Debates , how would they even come to Courts ?
> 
> I was Just giving you a peep into "your" Anti Pakistan Activities and BTW all of those links were From Books and not an Internet creation.
> 
> Recently an israeli general written in his book that they are Providing Training to Qadiyanis to send them back to Pakistan.
> 
> I am trying to get hold of the Links to that if i could .



You don't nerd to worry of anyone running you can get a judgment on your "evidence" then we can all be sure that this is not witch hunting.

*Let me put it another way, how many Ahmadis have been convicted of anti-state crimes in fair and free trials?* ...and to make it interesting how many Generals, Politicians and others from other sects have been found in anti-state activities? And to make it really easy for you let us know how many of the following were Ahmadi;

Governor General Ghulam Muhammad
General Ayub Khan
General Yahya Khan
Sheikh Mujeebur Rehman
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
General Zia ul Haque
Benazir Bhutto
Nawaz Sharif
Pervaiz Musharaf
Prsdent Zardari
General Aslam Baig
General Hamid Gul
Maulana Fazlul Rehman
Syed Munawar Hassan
Taliban
Religious banned organisations
Intelligence Agencies
Agencies paid journalists/media
Anyone else who can be conclusively connected with Pakistan's problems


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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> Sardar ji Bolti band hogai hai kya ???
> 
> Where are my Links ????



I provided the details and link. Look my previous posts.

Golden Temple incident is very bad happened in India. 

We are treated well in india. After all it is my country. We are equal with other people in india. Our prime minister is sikh. I am from orissa in estern india. I and my family never felt that we will targeted due my religion. BTW I wear turban also.

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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> PAKISTAN: Two murdered and 15 charged as discrimination against Ahmadis continues unabated
> 
> What sort of a country would arrest anyone for praying in a "place of worship that resembles a mosque" in 21st century? How pathetic is that. Again no mention of any anti-sate activities but clearly just religious persecution.



Qadiyanis are not allowed to Pray in Islamic Mosques by our constitution.

And this Report is misinterperated as i know there is nothing that RESEMBLES are Mosque but yet its not a Mosque

After all who owns this Media ??? Your own Zionist Family and they say what they want to say and how they want to say doesn't bother me


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> Yes Muslims Cant Join both Zionist Armies of India and Israel since Ahmadis are non Muslims they are doing whatever they can to join the army of Dijjal.



What are you talking about? There are plenty of Muslims in both armed forces and government jobs in India. Even the Indian atom bomb which will be used against Pakistan (so to speak) was "fathered" by a Muslim.

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## Hammy007

meesna why dont you speak on gujrat muslim massacre, and why not other human rights, saare burai pakistan main hi nazar aate hai tum ko??, i have just gone through your previous posts.


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## Kompromat

indian_warrior said:


> I provided the details and link. Look my previous posts.
> 
> Golden Temple incident is very bad happened in India.
> 
> We are treated well in india. After all it is my country. We are equal with other people in india. Our prime minister is sikh. I am from orissa in estern india. I and my family never felt that we will targeted due my religion. BTW I wear turban also.



I am happy that you are well in India.

BTW what was the Post number where you have posted the link about 100's of churches burnt in Pakistan


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## Kompromat

*More Qadiyanis serve in the Israeli Armed Forces than Pakistan according to a book, 'Israel: A Profile', by a Jewish Professor I.T Naomi. He stated: ' and the Ahmadi sect of some 600 people from Pakistan also serve in the (Israeli) army...' To many analysts Qadiyanis are a political issue and have always been a security problem? In India Qadiyanis have collected and donated thousands to the Indian Army fund after Kargil.

Tariq Aziz reportedly Qadiyani relative of Rehman Malik has been hired for the 'track two diplomacy with India'. His rank and salary would be equivalent to ....... No wonder MQM and PPP are reportedly planning to move a motion in the parliament to undo the declaration of Qadiyanis as non Muslims by ZA Bhutto led Parliament on 7th September 1974.

Altaf Hussain prayed for the forgiveness of Mirza Tahir Ahmad Qadiyani leader, who died in London few of years ago?
It was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmedyah Missionary of Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Ch. Muhammad Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel. All Qadiyani missionaries who had been formerly posted in Israel since 1928 namely J.D Shams, Allah Dita Jalundhari, Rashid Ahmed Chaughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif lived in Rabwah after serving in Israel. Their families had mysterious contact channels when they were in Israel", wrote Bashir Ahmad in 'Ahmadiyah Movement: British Jewish Connection. 

As far as Jewish help and support is concerned, Mirza Mubarak Ahmad, grandson of the Qadiyani prophet has himself acknowledged in his book OUR FOREIGN MISSIONS', PP. 79-80 in the following words: "The Ahmadiyya mission in Israel is situated in Haifa at Mount Karmal. We have a mosque there, a mission house, a library, a book depot and a school".



Counter it !!

---------- Post added at 10:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------




Hammy007 said:



meesna why dont you speak on gujrat muslim massacre, and why not other human rights, saare burai pakistan main hi nazar aate hai tum ko??, i have just gone through your previous posts.

Click to expand...


That is why they are not wanter because they are not Pakistanis.*


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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> Yes Muslims Cant Join both Zionist Armies of India and Israel since Ahmadis are non Muslims they are doing whatever they can to join the army of Dijjal.
> 
> BTW they were Pakistanis migrated to Israel.
> 
> Sardar ji app kay link kahan hain
> 
> Be careful next time when spreading BS , have cup of cofee and go tell it to your BR friends they would believe in your fantacy theories.



Looks like your brain is full nothing more can accommodate. I am not spreading any hatred here nor defending prosecution of ahemedis in pakistan.

BTW there are significant number of people (muslims) in indian army.

Even you say it is 1% it will run into 1000s in number.

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## Kompromat

Sardar Ji -- Look here we don't have enough churces to burn down.

Not even 100 Pakistan churches

I dont know how do you come up with 100's that we Burnt !


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## Kompromat

indian_warrior said:


> Looks like your brain is full nothing more can accommodate. I am not spreading any hatred here nor defending prosecution of ahemedis in pakistan.
> 
> BTW there are significant number of people (muslims) in indian army.
> 
> Even you say it is 1% it will run into 1000s in number.



I dont have any issues with Muslims in Indian Army.

But i do have an Issue with Pakistani Traitors serving in Zionist Army , why shouldn't i ?


----------



## Rafael

Hammy007 said:


> and these types of killings are not common in punjab and rest of pakistan??????, c'mon man, we daily hear these news, how are you so sure, they are murdered for their different religion, maybe taking asylum in canada is what they did by taking advantage of the situation



Hammy like i said, i knew the family personally. They were receiving threats way before that and they even contacted police which advised them to limit their movement. and it does not ends here, rest of the family is also getting threat calls from the same group hence they are seeking asylum in canada.


Here is the link that covers the full story.

PAKISTAN Punjab Muslim fundamentalists against the Ahmadis, three traders killed - Asia News


----------



## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> Sardar Ji -- Look here we don't have enough churces to burn down.
> 
> Not even 100 Pakistan churches
> 
> I dont know how do you come up with 100's that we Burnt !



if not 100's then 10's ok happy

Not having 100 churches for more than 3million people((as per your post 2.7%) also looks something suppressing.

More than 100 hindu temples in usa.

List of Hindu Temples and Religious Centers in the USA - VI (States OH - WV)


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## Kompromat

raheel1 said:


> Hammy like i said, i knew the family personally. They were receiving threats way before that and they even contacted police which advised them to limit their movement. and it does not ends here, rest of the family is also getting threat calls from the same group hence they are seeking asylum in canada.
> 
> 
> Here is the link that covers the full story.
> 
> PAKISTAN Punjab Muslim fundamentalists against the Ahmadis, three traders killed - Asia News




No one is denying that it does not happen .

But most of the cases are Dramas staged by these qadiyanis themselves to get a solid Police report with a Newspaper reference that they can claim the asylum in other Countries.


----------



## Meesna

Hammy007 said:


> meesna why dont you speak on gujrat muslim massacre, and why not other human rights, saare burai pakistan main hi nazar aate hai tum ko??, i have just gone through your previous posts.



I do! But problem with Pakistan as compared to many other countries including India is that Pakistan officially considers its citizens unequal, and persecution and apartheid is part of the constitution which makes it rather clear that a large portion of the population believes in such values. This also makes it worst than other places where citizens have some legal recourse under the law of equality of all citizens. For example in India, Muslims can go to court for descrimination as under the law all are more or less equal but in Pakistan Ahmadis and others can't even go to court as law is biased.

Besides, this thread is about Pakistan, not India.

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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> *More Qadiyanis serve in the Israeli Armed Forces than Pakistan according to a book, 'Israel: A Profile', by a Jewish Professor I.T Naomi. He stated: '&#8230; and the Ahmadi sect of some 600 people from Pakistan also serve in the (Israeli) army...' To many analysts Qadiyanis are a political issue and have always been a security problem? In India Qadiyanis have collected and donated thousands to the Indian Army fund after Kargil.
> 
> Tariq Aziz reportedly Qadiyani relative of Rehman Malik has been hired for the 'track two diplomacy with India'. His rank and salary would be equivalent to ....... No wonder MQM and PPP are reportedly planning to move a motion in the parliament to undo the declaration of Qadiyanis as non Muslims by ZA Bhutto led Parliament on 7th September 1974.
> 
> Altaf Hussain prayed for the forgiveness of Mirza Tahir Ahmad Qadiyani leader, who died in London few of years ago?
> It was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmedyah Missionary of Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Ch. Muhammad Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel. All Qadiyani missionaries who had been formerly posted in Israel since 1928 namely J.D Shams, Allah Dita Jalundhari, Rashid Ahmed Chaughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif lived in Rabwah after serving in Israel. Their families had mysterious contact channels when they were in Israel", wrote Bashir Ahmad in 'Ahmadiyah Movement: British Jewish Connection.
> 
> As far as Jewish help and support is concerned, Mirza Mubarak Ahmad, grandson of the Qadiyani prophet has himself acknowledged in his book &#8216;OUR FOREIGN MISSIONS', PP. 79-80 in the following words: "The Ahmadiyya mission in Israel is situated in Haifa at Mount Karmal. We have a mosque there, a mission house, a library, a book depot and a school".
> 
> 
> 
> Counter it !!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> That is why they are not wanter because they are not Pakistanis.*



Excellent! Now let's put some Ahmadis to free and fair trial and declare them guilty. With your "bullet proof" proof this should be a doodle. So don't wait no more.


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## Kompromat

indian_warrior said:


> if not 100's then 10's ok happy
> 
> Not having 100 churches for more than 3million people((as per your post 2.7%) also looks something suppressing.
> 
> More than 100 hindu temples in usa.
> 
> List of Hindu Temples and Religious Centers in the USA - VI (States OH - WV)



Sardar ji its upto Christian to build their Churches not to Muslims and they are free to build enough to fullfill their needs.


Though i think that banning Mosques in Christian countries like Swiss etc should force us to do the same but we are not like them .

I am still waiting for your links sardar ji , Zid chad dao


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> They will likely be better off seems to me Indian law does a better job of protecting its minorities.


I am so shame full on what is going on with minorities in Pakistan, which is extremism 

*Two wrongs doesn't make one right but Indian hand is not so clean against minorities too *


India missionary death trial ends
BBC NEWS | South Asia | India missionary death trial ends

Hindus burn church, Christians in fear 

Hindus burn church, Christians in fear | The Australian

*Anti-Christian violence in India / On 12 October 2008, Pope Benedict XVI criticized the continuing Anti-Christian violence in India.*

Anti-Christian violence in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


*Laws against Conversions*
Laws against Conversions

*The US State Department has claimed that the recent wave of anti-conversion laws in various Indian states passed by some states is seen as gradual and continuous institutionalization of Hindutva.[4] Christian missionaries are accused of using inducements such as schooling, money, and even motorcycles and bicycles to lure poor people to the faith, and have also launched movements to reconvert many tribal Christians back to Hinduism*.

Most of the Anti-conversion laws are brief and leave a lot of ambiguity, which can be misused for inflicting persecution.[citation needed] Legal experts[who?] believe that wilful trespass by missionaries upon the sacred spaces of other faiths can be prosecuted under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code, and as such there is no need for anti-conversion laws by individual states and they should be repealed.[citation needed] A consolidation of various Anti-conversion or "Freedom of Religion" Laws has been done by the All Indian Christian Council.[5]

In the past, several Indian states passed anti-conversion bills primarily to preventing people from converting to Christianity. Arunachal Pradesh passed a bill in 1978. In 2003, Gujarat State, after religious riots in 2002 (see 2002 Gujarat violence), passed an anti-conversion bill in 2003.

In July, 2006, Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.[6]

In August, 2006, the Chhattisgarh State Assembly passed similar legislation requiring anyone who desires to convert to another religion to give 30 days' notice to, and seek permission from, the district magistrate.[7]

In February, 2007, Himachal Pradesh became the first Congress Party ruled state to adopt legislation banning illegal religious conversions.[8]
The US State Department has claimed that the recent wave of anti-conversion laws in various Indian states passed by some states is seen as gradual and continuous institutionalization of Hindutva.[4] Christian missionaries are accused of using inducements such as schooling, money, and even motorcycles and bicycles to lure poor people to the faith, and have also launched movements to reconvert many tribal Christians back to Hinduism.

Most of the Anti-conversion laws are brief and leave a lot of ambiguity, which can be misused for inflicting persecution.[citation needed] Legal experts[who?] believe that wilful trespass by missionaries upon the sacred spaces of other faiths can be prosecuted under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code, and as such there is no need for anti-conversion laws by individual states and they should be repealed.[citation needed] A consolidation of various Anti-conversion or "Freedom of Religion" Laws has been done by the All Indian Christian Council.[5]

In the past, several Indian states passed anti-conversion bills primarily to preventing people from converting to Christianity. Arunachal Pradesh passed a bill in 1978. In 2003, Gujarat State, after religious riots in 2002 (see 2002 Gujarat violence), passed an anti-conversion bill in 2003.

In July, 2006, Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.[6]

*In August, 2006, the Chhattisgarh State Assembly passed similar legislation requiring anyone who desires to convert to another religion to give 30 days' notice to, and seek permission from, the district magistrate.[7] 
* 
In February, 2007, Himachal Pradesh became the first Congress Party ruled state to adopt legislation banning illegal religious conversions.[8]

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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> Excellent! Now let's put some Ahmadis to free and fair trial and declare them guilty. With your "bullet proof" proof this should be a doodle. So don't wait no more.



How can we put those Traitors on the trail while they are serving in Zionist army and waiting for their common Master the dijjal.


----------



## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> How can we put those Traitors on the trail while they are serving in Zionist army and waiting for their common Master the dijjal.



I'm afraid in that case no one is proven guilty. No trial no guilt. That's how civilised societies work.

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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> I'm afraid in that case no one is proven guilty. No trial no guilt. That's how civilised societies work.



Yes you better of with that and i am better of with what we have to do to protect ourselves from Traitors and Zionists.


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## Hammy007

self deleted


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## indian_warrior

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> *Two wrongs doesn't make one right but Indian hand is not clean against minorities *
> 
> 
> India missionary death trial ends
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | India missionary death trial ends
> 
> Hindus burn church, Christians in fear
> 
> Hindus burn church, Christians in fear | The Australian
> 
> Anti-Christian violence in India / On 12 October 2008, Pope Benedict XVI criticized the continuing Anti-Christian violence in India.
> 
> Anti-Christian violence in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> *Laws against Conversions*
> Laws against Conversions
> 
> The US State Department has claimed that the recent wave of anti-conversion laws in various Indian states passed by some states is seen as gradual and continuous institutionalization of Hindutva.[4] Christian missionaries are accused of using inducements such as schooling, money, and even motorcycles and bicycles to lure poor people to the faith, and have also launched movements to reconvert many tribal Christians back to Hinduism.
> 
> Most of the Anti-conversion laws are brief and leave a lot of ambiguity, which can be misused for inflicting persecution.[citation needed] Legal experts[who?] believe that wilful trespass by missionaries upon the sacred spaces of other faiths can be prosecuted under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code, and as such there is no need for anti-conversion laws by individual states and they should be repealed.[citation needed] A consolidation of various Anti-conversion or "Freedom of Religion" Laws has been done by the All Indian Christian Council.[5]
> 
> In the past, several Indian states passed anti-conversion bills primarily to preventing people from converting to Christianity. Arunachal Pradesh passed a bill in 1978. In 2003, Gujarat State, after religious riots in 2002 (see 2002 Gujarat violence), passed an anti-conversion bill in 2003.
> 
> In July, 2006, Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.[6]
> 
> In August, 2006, the Chhattisgarh State Assembly passed similar legislation requiring anyone who desires to convert to another religion to give 30 days' notice to, and seek permission from, the district magistrate.[7]
> 
> In February, 2007, Himachal Pradesh became the first Congress Party ruled state to adopt legislation banning illegal religious conversions.[8]
> The US State Department has claimed that the recent wave of anti-conversion laws in various Indian states passed by some states is seen as gradual and continuous institutionalization of Hindutva.[4] Christian missionaries are accused of using inducements such as schooling, money, and even motorcycles and bicycles to lure poor people to the faith, and have also launched movements to reconvert many tribal Christians back to Hinduism.
> 
> Most of the Anti-conversion laws are brief and leave a lot of ambiguity, which can be misused for inflicting persecution.[citation needed] Legal experts[who?] believe that wilful trespass by missionaries upon the sacred spaces of other faiths can be prosecuted under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code, and as such there is no need for anti-conversion laws by individual states and they should be repealed.[citation needed] A consolidation of various Anti-conversion or "Freedom of Religion" Laws has been done by the All Indian Christian Council.[5]
> 
> In the past, several Indian states passed anti-conversion bills primarily to preventing people from converting to Christianity. Arunachal Pradesh passed a bill in 1978. In 2003, Gujarat State, after religious riots in 2002 (see 2002 Gujarat violence), passed an anti-conversion bill in 2003.
> 
> In July, 2006, Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.[6]
> 
> In August, 2006, the Chhattisgarh State Assembly passed similar legislation requiring anyone who desires to convert to another religion to give 30 days' notice to, and seek permission from, the district magistrate.[7]
> 
> In February, 2007, Himachal Pradesh became the first Congress Party ruled state to adopt legislation banning illegal religious conversions.[8]



This is just law against conversion by giving money(buying people) not against their religious practice.

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## Meesna

Hammy007 said:


> non muslims cant go to the court???



If the law itself allows or promotes persecution as in Pakistan, then courts can't go against the law hence can't provide any recourse to the persecuted. This makes it rather strange that in 21st century there exists a country that officially and legally persecutes its own citizens and with pride.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

I think all minorities should move from Pakistan because of Afghan war , extremism is increasing as revenge for war. 
The war on terror has made Pakistan not safe for minorities .


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## Kompromat

Mr Meesna if you are one of those can you answer one Question of mine.

According to Us (Islam) In the End times Jesus PBUH will decend and Team up with Imam Mahdi to spread Islam in all over the world by preaching.

Then he will battle Dijjal and finally 40 years after his arrival the Judgement day will come.

*IF* Your Mirza was a messih or whatever you call him.

Why didn't he Ever Went To Kaaba.
Why weren't he born in Arabia
Why weren't he died in Medina but Lahore's Toilets 
Why Didn't the Imam Mehdi appeard 
Why didn't after 40 years of his death the Day of Judgment arrived
Why didn't He fought the Dijjal
Why Didn't the yajooj o Majooj arrived.
Why didn't Islam became the Univarsal religion
Why didn't he was accepted by All Muslims (As described in Hadith that when the messiah will come Not even a single Muslim would have a doubt in him.)
Why Did he had his own book.
Why was he married.


Can you Answer ???


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## Gin ka Pakistan

indian_warrior said:


> This is just law against conversion by giving money(buying people) not against their religious practice.



They burned the Australian Missionary alive  , why should people live low cast its their birth right to leave a religion which have made them untouchable by birth


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## Meesna

No I can't answer.

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## Kompromat

Few more Questions if you CAN answer.

Who Was the Impostor of Qadian?


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## indian_warrior

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> The burned the Australian Missionary alive



May be he is converting people to christianity by using money not by preaching.

Indian govt arrested the guilty right?


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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> No I can't answer.



As Expected

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------




indian_warrior said:


> May be he is converting people to christianity by using money not by preaching.
> 
> Indian govt arrested the guilty right?



And you burnt him Alive for that


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> As Expected




What are you talking about?

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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> What are you telling about? Do I appear religious of any denomination to you? I was athiest when I was in school.



Athiest= La deen
Qadiyanis = Mushrik

Qadiyanis have never been able to answer our Questions that is why they are where they are and we are where we are.


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## indian_warrior

Black Blood said:


> As Expected
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *And you burnt him Alive for that*



I am not supporting it. It is just an isolated incidents in more than 20 million christian people in India.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

indian_warrior said:


> I am not supporting it. It is just an isolated incidents in more than 20 million christian people in India.



If India would have not put anti conversion law it could increase from 20 million to 80 million in a year. let the western NGOs with money to help the poor and low cast if conversion can make them have human rights.


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## Kompromat

indian_warrior said:


> I am not supporting it. It is just an isolated incidents in more than 20 million christian people in India.



Veeray sanoon sab pata aye

Ok guys i am done , sleepy now.

Sardar ji please dont talk about those churches anymore

Thanks.

Pakistan Zindabad

Bye Folks see you tomorrow


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> And you burnt him Alive for that



Since when you started to have problem with persecution?

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## indian_warrior

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> If India would have not put anti conversion law it could increase from 20 million to 80 million in a year. let the western NGOs with money to help the poor and low cast if conversion can make them have human rights.
> 
> YouTube- Low caste Indians seek to convert
> 
> YouTube- Hindus Strip Low Caste Mother & Daughter in Ajmer india



People converting for money is not good. The converter can't support for more than few months. After getting easy money they became lazy and increase the crime.

Gov should develop their community and bring it to main stream. We have reservation system. It is not working as expected by Ambedkar.

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## Meesna

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> If India would have not put anti conversion law it could increase from 20 million to 80 million in a year. let the western NGOs with money to help the poor and low cast if conversion can make them have human rights.



Gin, you trying to derail the thread? Why not open another thread for India related issues?

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Meesna said:


> Gin, you trying to derail the thread? Why not open another thread for India related issues?



Yes, but after seeing Indian lecturing Pakistanis as they are the good guys in this sorry state of minorities in Sub continent and reply to post by Death.By.Chocolate



> Originally Posted by Death.By.Chocolate View Post
> They will likely be better off seems to me Indian law does a better job of protecting its minorities.



so don't blame me I didn't stared it Death.By.Chocolate did

Coming back to topic I think Pakistan is not a safe place for Ahmedis and they all should move out.


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## VrSoLdIeRs

suddenly sardar ji and meensa are on the back foot 

btw next time try n bring up some reports from authentic media regarding religious violence (try amnesty international)

well played guys!!!!!

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## Meesna

VrSoLdIeRs said:


> suddenly sardar ji and meensa are on the back foot
> 
> btw next time try n bring up some reports from authentic media regarding religious violence (try amnesty international)
> 
> well played guys!!!!!



What are you talking about? The law persecuting Ahmadis is part of statute books. What is un-authentic about it?

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Coming back to topic I think Pakistan is not a safe place for Ahmedis and they all should move out. it was PPP who declared them as non Muslims in 70s


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## Meesna

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Coming back to topic I think Pakistan is not a safe place for Ahmedis and they all should move out.



...and how does it reflect upon Pakistan, Pakistanis and Islam?

Doesn't it proof conclusively that religious ideology prevalent in Pakistan is an ideology of terror and hate? And Pakistanis should get rid of it asap and adopt a better ideology, instead?

You have just identified the real culprit. Its not Ahmadis or other persecuted, rather the idealogy behind the persecution.

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## VrSoLdIeRs

Meesna said:


> What are you talking about? The law persecuting Ahmadis is part of statute books. What is un-authentic about it?


was talking about the religious violence.... DUH!!!!!!


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Meesna said:


> ...and how does it reflect upon Pakistan, Pakistanis and Islam?
> 
> Doesn't it proof conclusively that Islam is a religion of terror and hate? And Pakistanis should get rid of it asap and get a better set of ideology, instead?



War on terror has brought more extremism in the world and its the after effects of WOT that Pakistan is no more a safe place to live specially for minorities. 
US is planing to run in 2011 and extremism will increase as winner.

Every one make fun of Imran but he is right war is no solution for extremism.


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## Meesna

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> War on terror has brought more extremism in the world and its the after effects of WOT that Pakistan is no more a safe place to live specially for minorities.
> US is planing to run in 2011 and extremism will increase as winner.
> 
> Every one make fun of Imran but he is right war is no solution for extremism.



If violence begets violence then how come Ahmadis and other persecuted are not replying in kind?

War on terror, poverty etc etc are just excuses. Its the idealogy!

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Meesna said:


> If violence begets violence then how come Ahmadis and other persecuted are not replying in kind?
> 
> War on terror, poverty etc etc are just excuses. Its the idealogy!



Oh no , Ahmadis have a very well organized front in west against Muslims they are playing proxy war. There is always two side of a story.

Just tell me how many Muslims have died in last fifty years in Bosnian , Iraq, Afghanistan , Palestine , Kashmir and Pakistan by non Muslims ?


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## Meesna

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Oh no , Ahmadis have a very well organized front in west against Muslims they are playing proxy war. There is always two side of a story.



Really how? Can you show anything for which Ahmadis can be brought to court, with evidence? If they are merely saying they are being persecuted then this is their just right like that of Kashmiris and Palestinians, they can't be blamed for that. Still you are welcome to show anything illegal from their side.



> Just tell me how many Muslims have died in last fifty years in Bosnian , Iraq, Afghanistan , Palestine , Kashmir and Pakistan by non Muslims ?



How does that exonerate Pakistanis and religious ideology prevalent in Pakistan; the cause of so many killings and persecution?

Also Ahmadis are being persecuted since way back when, 1953 to be precise, when war on terror was no where so it's not a factor. The reason is clearly the religious ideology in Pakistan, no point beating about the bush.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Meesna said:


> Gin ka Pakistan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no , Ahmadis have a very well organized front in west against Muslims they are playing proxy war. There is always two side of a story.[/QUOTE}
> 
> Really how? Can you show anything for which Ahmadis can be brought to court, with evidence? If they are merely saying they are being persecuted then this is their just right like that of Kashmiris and Palestinians, they can't be blamed for that. Still you are welcome to show anything illegal from their side.
> 
> 
> 
> How does that exonerate Pakistanis and the religious ideology prevalent in Pakistan?
> 
> Also Ahmadis are being persecuted since way back when, 1953 to be precise, when war on terror was no were so it's not a factor. The reason is clearly the religious ideology, no point beating about the bush.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't paint every one with one brush , please.
> 
> Ahmadis promise west to convert people in Pakistan and get money for that , as you said change religious ideology and that's what they are doing with western support.
> 
> Many become Ahmadis in Pakistan for money and wealth promise to them.
Click to expand...


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## Meesna

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Don't paint every one with one brush , please.
> 
> Ahmadis promise west to convert people in Pakistan and get money for that , as you said change religious ideology and that's what they are doing with western support.



Can you provide some evidence of any of the promises to the west and getting money for it? I hope you are not resorting to conspiracy theories after running out of arguments. Hope to see some evidence of your allegations. Also has this been proven in any of the courts? If not why not take Ahmadis to court if any real proof of these allegations exists?

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## T-Faz

Now you bigots are going to hate this and your Jamaat-e-Islami Conspiracies will be put to shame.

*Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Founder of Pakistan was himself convinced by an Ahmadi to return to India and fight for Pakistan when he had become disenchanted by the movement and moved away.*

Chowk: Current Affairs: Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis 

By a Pakistani

(The writer is a lawyer and a participant in the lawyer's movement. He has asked to keep his identity secret for the fear of persecution.)

The events in Punjab Medical College in Faisalabad recently have brought to the forefront once again a very important and yet neglected issue which continues to blacken our collective conscience as a nation. The expulsion of 23 students for allegedly preaching their faith underscored the sickness that has crept into the majority in this country bringing bad name to the country and the faith of Islam as well. There is need for serious inquiry as to whether this pathetic state of affairs will be allowed to continue and will the Ahmadis continue to be the victims of Pakistan's version of Jim Crow Laws aided and abetted by a PC0-ed judiciary passing numerous "Dredd Scott" like decisions. 

The persecution of Ahmadis even under the present mangled constitution is patently unconstitutional. A fair court of law would have noticed and pounced on the Ahmadi-specific legislation that has crept into our statute books for every single one of these laws violate a couple dozen fundamental rights accorded to the citizens of Pakistan not the least Article 20 which gives every citizen the right to practice and propagate his or her religion without any caveats. The rot however began with Bhutto's 2nd Amendment which declared Ahmadis Non-Muslim. His law minister, Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada, proved himself to be a poor constitutional lawyer when he declared that the National Assembly was sovereign and could take such a step. The correct legal position was that of Sir Zafrullah Khan, erstwhile Pakistani foreign minister and one of the authors of the Lahore Resolution, who argued that it was beyond the scope of the National Assembly to determine the faith of an individual especially under the Constitution of 1973. Even the Islamic provisions of the constitution of 1973 were to be interpreted according to each sect's understanding and Ahmadis being an established Muslim sect in 1973 were entitled to their own interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah. 

Ahmadis were also very much Muslim when the Government of Pakistan laid claim to Qadian as a Muslim holy place in 1947 as a counterweight to Sikh claims to their holy sites in Pakistan. *No less a person than Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Pakistan's founding father, had declared unequivocally on the Ahmadi issue that anyone who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim and that anyone who says otherwise is conspiring against the Muslim cause. It is little known that Jinnah was finally persuaded to return to India and lead the Muslim League by Mr. Ibrahim Dard, the Imam of the London Ahmaddiya Mosque in the 1930s. The future founder of Pakistan had gone to and prayed behind the Ahmaddiya mosque unaware that the country he was about to create in two decades would one day make such an act punishable under law. If he was to time travel into the future, he would probably abandon the whole Pakistan project altogether. *

Every single act of persecution against Ahmadis is quite unjustifiably laid at the door of the idea of Pakistan. Unjustifiably because those at the fore front of the "Persecute Ahmadis movement" are the same people who bitterly opposed Pakistan and considered Jinnah as big a Kafir as they consider the Ahmadis. The first occurrence of the anti-Ahmaddiya feeling on record is a report by a Muslim League activist who found that in the tribal areas, Fakir of Ipi and other pro-Congress Mullah elements had begun to describe the Muslim League as a bastion of "Qadiyanism". The same feeling has persisted. Majlis-e-Ahrar that led the anti-Ahmaddiya movement in 1953-1954 was the biggest Congress ally before partition. Jamaat-e-Islami chief Maududi had dismissed Jinnah and others as too secular and westernized to properly lead the Muslims. The biggest persecutors of Ahmadis i.e. Darul-Uloom-Deoband and their cronies owe their very political existence to Mahatma Gandhi who introduced these Mullahs in the Khilafat movement- out of which arose the Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind- the forerunner of all fundamentalist and militant movements in South Asia and beyond. 

The idea that a majority can dictate to a minority what it is or isn't allowed to call itself is the very anti-thesis of the principle Pakistan was created on. Pakistan was created on the idea that a permanent majority cannot by sheer numeric strength dominate and dictate to a permanent minority. The anti-Ahmaddiya legislation flies in face of the whole Pakistan idea, leading to at least one perceptive commentator calling the second amendment to the constitution in 1974 nothing less than the death of Pakistan. That a PPP government was in charge and Pakistan's brightest Prime Minister was in power makes that event even more ironic. Bhutto perhaps had no other option. Had he resisted it, the establishment would have used the issue to dismiss Bhutto the same way they dismissed Khawaja Nazimuddin and the Muslim League government in 1953. Of course Bhutto fell three years later and atleast the rotund and very religious Nazimuddin does not carry the blot of being the Prime Minister who persecuted a group of people based on their faith. Great responsibility lies on the shoulders of the Pakistan People's Party to undo its heinous mistake and clear up the good name of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto once and for all. It has an excellent opportunity to undo a historic wrong. 
Remember the issue is not, and it has never been, whether anyone agrees with Ahmadis or considers them Muslim. It is one's right to hold an opinion but that opinion cannot be imposed no matter what force of majority is behind it. The issue is- as it has always been- what Ahmadis consider themselves. No construction of Article 20 of the constitution can deny them the right to call themselves Muslims and by settled law fundamental rights are the over-riding feature of any written constitution. Therefore the second amendment itself is unconstitutional and illegal, not to mention the antithesis of Pakistan and its idealism. It is also an issue that cuts deep into our aspiration to be a civilized and tolerant society based on rule of law. The actions of those who had always opposed Pakistan and its founder are beginning to taint the very ideal to utter joy of our enemies home and abroad. It is time for Pakistanis to stand up and be counted.

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## T-Faz

Among many Ahmadis who are in high positions in Pakistan, usually promoted for their loyalty and knowledge by the Pakistani Elite themselves was the great *Muhammad Zafrulla Khan*.

The first person and a great Pakistani to speak for the cause of Palestinians, this speaks a lot and i do not believe those fake conspiracy books. 

And Ahmadi's were the ones who fought for Kashmir in 1948 for it to be a part of Pakistan. I just found all this and should shut up the extremists we have among us.

9 -11 -1948 Jinnah's death, Ahmadiyya role in Kashmir, Afghanistan and Pakistan - Audarya Fellowship

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## Kompromat

T-Faz said:


> Black blood, you damn coward Arab loving loser, do not and I mean do not ever again speak for all pakistanis with those despicable hate filled comments.
> 
> It's because of cowards like you we are in a mess, and once people like you pass then things will get better.
> 
> What a damn fool. Stupid extremist.



You are reported ------


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## Kompromat

Some Idiots will come up with their Conspiracy theory about Allama Muhammad Iqbal.

Tagging with a big name to get fake publicity is now old school grow up.

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## khanz

Some of the comments on this thread are quite disturbing jinnah would be rolling in his grave if he saw what a hate filled nation pakistan has become didn't he advocate equal right for ALL minorities ? i don't recall he ever singled out ahmadis for different treatment ! 
Anyway let them believe what they want you don't need to accept them as muslims you will still have your same old beliefs. I understand you think it's wrong for them to call themselves muslims but just consider them as it's own seperate religion not part of islam but give them equal rights.
If they are pakistanis then they deserve the same treatment as any other pakistani citizen regardless of their religion and isn't that the duty of an islamic state anyway to provide protection for ALL minorities ? 
The hypocrisy amongst pakistanis is amazing crying for palestinians while openly encouraging apartheid/deportation against a group of people based solely on their religion.........disgusting really

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## Kompromat

khanz said:


> Some of the comments on this thread are quite disturbing jinnah would be rolling in his grave if he saw what a hate filled nation pakistan has become didn't he advocate equal right for ALL minorities ? i don't recall he ever singled out ahmadis for different treatment !
> Anyway let them believe what they want you don't need to accept them as muslims you will still have your same old beliefs. I understand you think it's wrong for them to call themselves muslims but just consider them as it's own seperate religion not part of islam but give them equal rights.
> If they are pakistanis then they deserve the same treatment as any other pakistani citizen regardless of their religion and isn't that the duty of an islamic state anyway to provide protection for ALL minorities ?
> The hypocrisy amongst pakistanis is amazing crying for palestinians while openly encouraging apartheid/deportation against a group of people based solely on their religion.........disgusting really



I dont care about what they believe but what i do care about is that they Must not involve in Anti Pakistan Activities as it gives our enemies a breeding ground on our own soil by our own citizens.

Go through my previous posts , WTF Pakistani Ahmadis are doing in Israli millitary ???

Our Passports don't allow treaveling to the Zionist state , neither our constitution recognoizes them as a Country.

Everyone having polices which contradict our Constitution must be punished and this is how state works.

They give up their Anti Pakistan activities today they would be recognoized as "Loyal" citizens tomorrow.

is it hard to Understand ?

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## Areesh

Black Blood said:


> I dont care about what they believe but what i do care about is that they Must not involve in Anti Pakistan Activities as it gives our enemies a breeding ground on our own soil by our own citizens.
> 
> Go through my previous posts , WTF Pakistani Ahmadis are doing in Israli millitary ???
> 
> Our Passports don't allow treaveling to the Zionist state , neither our constitution recognoizes them as a Country.
> 
> Everyone having polices which contradict our Constitution must be punished and this is how state works.
> 
> They give up their Anti Pakistan activities today they would be recognoized as "Loyal" citizens tomorrow.
> 
> is it hard to Understand ?



I totally agree with you Mr Black Blood. Ahmadis not only betrayed Islam but our country too. I saw many Ahmadis taking asylum in European countries saying that they are muslims and are facing persecution in Pakistan. They brought disgrace to our country.


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## Kompromat

Areesh said:


> I totally agree with you Mr Black Blood. Ahmadis not only betrayed Islam but our country too. I saw many Ahmadis taking asylum in European countries saying that they are muslims and are facing persecution in Pakistan. They brought disgrace to our country.



We are nobody to judge them upon their believes as it is already been done.

What we are concerned about is their Anti state (Pakistan) activities , them participating in Israeli Army is a big NO NO.

I want them to live in co existance with peace with other Minorities and Muslims in particular But only if they stop Harming Pakistan from With in.

I am not Generalizing all Ahamdis as Traitors but they do have a lot of them who would do anything to get this Nation under havok.

Simply They are welcomed as normal citizens but their Anti pakistan activities are NOT.

*Following Comments will Clarify my Whole View point.*




> This is not about freedom of opinion - this forum will not allow anyone freedom of opinion to insult and abuse another community, be it Muslim, Hindu, Ahmadi or what have you.
> 
> Ahmadis are Pakistanis like the rest of us, and there should be no restriction on how they practice their faith. It is in fact a shame that we have open prejudice against Ahmadis in our laws. Whether they are a cult or not is for Allah to decide, and if they want to spread their message (so long as it is non-violent) we should allow it and people have the choice to listen and accept it or reject it.
> 
> For a long time the US condoned slavery, just because something is in the constitution does not make it acceptable - as Pakistanis we have the right and the obligation to protest black laws such as the ones against Ahmadis.





> True indeed.
> 
> I am trying to avoid the "Religious" Fregment as much as i can and Focusing on what is in our constitution (Even i don't agree with that fully) But us being citizens have an obligation to defend it.
> 
> I believe in Full freedom of expression for All communities in Pakistan as Islam asks is to listen to everyone but sir you Must accept that those involved in Anti Pakistan activities are not included.
> 
> Gone the days when Pakistan faced secterianism and i am optimistic it will continue towards Mutual understanding and respect for each other's faith.
> 
> My concern is NOT what they believe and i do not care about it neither i have to because me being a Human and a Muslim is no body to judge people on their Faiths as i can't neither i am allowed to.
> 
> I am responsible for my own faith so is everyone else , But the Issues i have with Qadiyanis are purely based upon their Anti Pakistani Activities and not Religious Based.
> 
> My mate lives in Chaniot which is right next to Rabwah and he Provided some information about how the dual passport holders bring money to anti state elements and those who defy our constitution.
> 
> I have posted a Link from an Israeli General's book who claimed that we have over 600 Pakistani Qadiyanis in Israeli Army and this is what concerns me that our citizens are Serving in a force which is commiting a slow genoside of Humans on daily basis and those Who Tried to Attack our Nuclear facilities .
> 
> In the end i would say that please Close this discussion as it is done.
> 
> Thanks & God bless.
> Bye



I dont have left anymore Business in this Thread , Good Bye from me


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Zaki said:


> But they "Ahmedis" have corrupted our religion and their activities cannot be acceptable to the majoritty of Muslims.
> 
> Simple


How have Ahmadi's corrupted your religion?

Did they sneak some pork into your breakfast? Did they sneak into your home and alter the Quran? 

Isn't the fact that you are not an Ahmadi proof that they have in fact not corrupted your religion?

If some people agree with their message, they can accept them, if some don't, they can reject them.

It isn't really up to you or anyone else to determine whose faith is valid and whose faith is not. Mind your own business, and let the Ahmadis live their life as they see fit. Have some respect for the beliefs of others and their rights to live without being subjected to discrimination and prejudice.

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## ice_man

i believe that ahmedis should be given equal rights as other minorities! 

HOWEVER, they should first come out & state that they have nothing to do with islam! islam ended at prophet MOHAMMED (p.b.u.h) the problem about ahmedis which make people object to them is the following:
*
# That the prophecies concerning the second coming of Jesus were metaphorical in nature and not literal, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad fulfilled in his person these prophecies and the second advent of Jesus, that he was the promised Mahdi and Messiah.[24]
# The continuation of divine revelation. Although the Qur'an is the final message of God for mankind, He continues to communicate with his chosen individuals in the same way he is believed to have done in the past. All of God's attributes are eternal.*

*The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believes that Muhammad brought prophethood to perfection and was the last law-bearing prophet and the apex of mans spiritual evolution. New prophets can come but they must be subordinate to Muhammad and cannot exceed him in excellence nor alter his teaching or bring any new law or religion*

i am sorry but this last part cannot be tolerated by any muslim regardless of his/her sect. 

if you are a muslim you have to believe that the last PROPHET if islam was Mohammed (p.b.u.h)


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## Kompromat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How have Ahmadi's corrupted your religion?
> 
> Did they sneak some pork into your breakfast? Did they sneak into your home and alter the Quran?
> 
> Isn't the fact that you are not an Ahmadi proof that they have in fact not corrupted your religion?
> 
> If some people agree with their message, they can accept them, if some don't, they can reject them.
> 
> It isn't really up to you or anyone else to determine whose faith is valid and whose faith is not. Mind your own business, and let the Ahmadis live their life as they see fit. Have some respect for the beliefs of others and their rights to live without being subjected to discrimination and prejudice.



Yes they did alter the Religion in the First Place & this is why we Put a Line in between them and us.

Now they are a Different Religion thus subject to be called a Minority and have access to all rights that minorities enjoy.

Me , Zaki , you or anyone can't judge them upon their believes.

Please consider this Report.



> ACTIVITIES OF THE QADIANIS
> WHO ARE QADIANIS OR AHMADIS?
> The followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian are called Qadianis or Abmadis, whether they may regard him as a real Prophet; or a Zilli or Buroozi (through rebirth according to Hindus reincarnation) Prophet; as the Masih Mauud; a reformer; (Muhaddas) (one who talks with God), Hazrat Ibrahim, Sri Krishna, even God. Whatever may they regard him, they are invariably non-Muslims, rather traitors, both to Islam and to the Millat-e-Islamiyah. But they fraudulently claim to be one of the Muslim sects like the Hanafis, the Malikis, the Shafies and the Hanbalis, who are undoubtedly pristine and puritan Muslims. There is not an iota of truth in the Qadianis such fraudulent claims. This is a worst type of fraud on their part, motivated to misguide the simple-minded Muslims. The Qadianis are unanimously held by the recognised authorities of Islam to be non-Muslims, and not a Muslim sect, whether they may belong to the Rabwa group or to the Lahore group. Both groups are non-Muslims.
> 
> Extracts
> [In the 19th Century] Indian Muslims rallied in thousands under the banner of revolt [Jehad] raised by the great Syed [Ahmed Shaheed]. Not unduly, the British masters were perturbed by the upsurge. In Sudan, Sheikh Mohammad Ahmad gave the call of Jehad and Mehdism which rattled the Western imperialists. They knew that if the spark was allowed to blaze forth it would become uncontrollable. And, then, they saw the Pan-Islamic movement of Syed Jamaluddin Afghani gaining in popularity. The threat that all this spelt for their colonial structure was too obvious to be ignored. The only way to hold them [Muslims] in check was, thus, to make use of their religious susceptibilities... Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who was a victim of frustration and mental unrest and wanted very much to be the founder of a new faith so that he, too, may have devotees and followers and his name, also went down in history like that of the Prophet Mohammad (Peace be on him), was picked up by the British Government to fulfill the mission. No one could be more suited to work among the Muslims towards that objective.
> 
> Mirza Ghulam Ahmad launched his endeavour with great alacrity. At first he laid claim to the station of a Renovators - then promoted himself and declared that he was Imam Mehdi, after some time the glad tidings of being the Promised Messiah reached him and, finally, he was the Prophet. The design of the British masters had been put into effect. It had been carried out admirably! The Mirza played his part very well and nothing was left wanting by way of British patronage also. His security and protection was looked after with care and diligence and all sorts of facilities were made available to him. The Qadiani, on his side, was not an ungrateful soul. He never forgot the favours conferred by the Government nor tired of proclaiming that his advancement was solely due to its benevolence. In one of his articles he declares himself to be a seedling of the British Government, and makes a display of his unswerving faithfulness in these words:
> 
> The greater part of my life has been spent in supporting and defending the British Government. I have written so many books regarding the prohibition of Jehad and loyalty to the British that, were they to be gathered together, they would fill fifty almirahs. I have distributed these books in all countries: Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Kabul and Rum.
> 
> At another place, the Mirza writes:
> 
> From my early age till now when I am about sixty years old, I have been engaged with my pen and tongue in an important task: to turn the hearts of Muslims towards true love, goodwill and sympathy for the British Government, and to obliterate the idea of Jehad from the hearts of the less wise among them, since these stand in the way of sincerity and frank and honest mutual relations
> 
> The movement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad furnished excellent spies, faithful friends and sell-sacrificing agents to the British Government. Some of his followers did yeomen service to it, both in India and abroad, and did not hesitate even to shed their blood for its sake, such as Abdul Latif Qadiani who was an enthusiastic preacher of the Qadiani faith in Afghanistan and [who] also did his best to refute the concept of Jehad. He was executed by the Afghan Government because it was feared that the kind of preaching he indulged in would drive out from the Afghans the spirit of valour for which they were known all over the world. In the same way, Mulla Abdul Halim Qadiani and Mulla Nur Ali Qadiani were executed in Afghanistan, for certain papers were found in their possession which proved that they were the agents and spies of the British and their job was to conspire against the Afghan Government, as is apparent from the statement issued by the Minister of Interior of Afghanistan in 1925, and the official organ of the Qadiani movement, Al-Fazl, too, has published this statement in its issue of March 3, 1925, and displayed this event as an act of glowing self-sacrifice!
> 
> The Qadiani community, in sum, kept strictly away from all nationalist movements, from its inception. It took no part in the struggle for freedom, neither during the lifetime of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, nor after his death. What is more, it took pleasure in the injustices and atrocities perpetrated by the Western Imperialists on the Islamic World. The Qadianis remained completely indifferent to all-popular endeavours of the Muslims, and to the problems and movements which sprang from Islamic consciousness. Their sole concern was to engage in religious polemics and make minute distinctions in argument or issues like the death of the Messiah, the life of the Messiah, the descension of the Messiah and the Apostleship of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
> 
> [Brief extracts from Qadianism - A Critique, by S. Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi, published by Young Mens s Muslim Association, P. O.Box 18594, Actonville, 1506, South Africa.]
> A Tale of the Underground Activities of the Qadianis
> As the 2nd half of the 20th century passed, rays of hope dawned for the Muslim world. Islam in the last was set free from the shackles of colonial administration. Along with it, ahead of a deep religious consciousness, the wave of cultural and intellectual alertness flowed (emerged). But immediately, weapons were checked anew from the other side and new snares were laid for the Muslims. Conspiracies were made. Extraordinary dexterities (measures) were adopted, so much so that, now, after approximately 50 years, at the end of the century, Muslims are surrounded by trials and tests from all sides.
> 
> A trial from amongst these very frightful trials is the infidelistic movement of Qadianism, which our society has become the running target of. This evil (of Qadianism) is spreading very rapidly in most of the countries of the world. The manner in which this movement is being propagated, is also astonishing. On the other hand, the simplicity with which efforts are being made to confront it, leaves ones mind and intellect compelled to say,
> 
> Look at your own simplicity
> But look at the craftiness of others too. Yahya Numani
> 
> After adjudging the Qadianis as non-Muslims, the Muslim World has resolved to relieve themselves from the incumbent responsibility of casting a watchful eye over the external and secret activities of the Qadianis, whereas, after the historical decision of 1974, the responsibilities of Muslim organizations  Islamic governments in particular -had increased. The duty of keeping a strict observation of the underground activities of the Qadianis and to render unsuccessful their plans against Islamic governments ought to have continued, but sadly, that has not happened and the severe consequences thereof are now surfacing.
> 
> According to some reports, an organized and arranged network of the Qadianis is existent in approximately 150 countries of the world. In fact, Mirza Tahir Ahmed has received a VIP protocol (status) in all non-Islamic countries which (in certain countries, is no less than a Protocol which some Heads of State receive). In 1989, the Ahmadiyya sect celebrated their centenary festival in Pakistan and all over the world, during which their objectives throughout the world were surveyed and their goals for the next 25 years were ascertained.
> 
> In 1983/84, when a detailed report regarding the activities of the Qadianis was presented to General Zia-ul-Haq, he discreetly began an urgent move (covert operation), the aim of which was to remove Qadiani appointments from the army, secret institutions, bureaucracy, NGOs, embassies, communications, Foreign Department, television, radio and other key posts. A few members were removed from the army on the basis of contravening the disciplinary code, but after a list of the remaining persons was prepared, it was unable to be executed. According to some reports, currently (too) there are Qadianis present in all the mentioned departments (stated earlier). In the meanwhile, a group, the Movement to preserve the finality of Prophethood had also prepared an agenda, but due to various reasons, even a minimal percentage of that was not acted upon.
> 
> Included amongst the designs, aims and objectives of the Movement to preserve the finality of Prophethood  as recorded in their booklet - are these two important points too (which are probably in the grade of not having been acted upon):
> 
>  Along new lines, utilizing the electronic and print media in future, to forestall the activities of the Qadianis against Islam and the state.
>  Setting up centers in different cities to keep a watchful eye over the Qadianis.
> 
> It is also necessary to mention here, this bitter fact, that when the previous Pakistani Government had to encounter (confront) the worst and most menacing sectarian revolution in history in the first few months of coming into power, the secretariat of the Inspector General of the police, along with all secret and sensitive institutions, submitted written reports to the government that several Qadiani organizations too have a hand in further fanning the religious sectarian revolution in Pakistan. Doubts were even raised about the existence of Qadiani persons in the Prime Ministers office, secretariat. Foreign Ministry, Interior Ministry, the close circles and aides of the Prime Minister and their important officers, which was a security risk. Those who had the power to submit a report, pointed out the basic cause of the mutiny and discord, but those who had the power to enforce the report, remained advisedly silent and the matter was squashed. These are the very same expediencies which are harming Pakistan.
> 
> In 1989, on the occasion of the centenary celebrations, with reference to the good work of the century, the Qadianis distributed a voluminous magazine amongst their members, wherein was recorded important Qadiani centers in 120 countries and details of their network of propagation (tabligh). According to recent reports, formal fixed centers and lower constitutional institutions are found in 150 countries, to which have been entrusted the responsibility of different continents.
> 
> Under the supervision of Mirza Tahir Ahmed, included amongst the countries wherein important centers of the Qadianis are in operation, are - in particular - countries like, Liberia, Ghana, Gambia, Indonesia, Techiman, Fiji, Ivory Coast, London, Glasgow, Frankfurt (Germany), Senegal, Sweden, Amsterdam (Holland), Bangladesh, New York, Japan, West Java, Malaysia, Singapore, Rosehill (Mauritius), Norway, Sierra Leone and Nigeria.
> 
> On the 12th of September 1983, a hail was booked in the Paramount Hotel of Singapore for a meeting under the chairmanship of Mirza Tahir Ahmed, the leader of the Ahmedia Movement. Dynamic members of functioning Qadiani organizations in Indonesia, Malaysia, Saba and Singapore, attended this meeting. Propagatory matters of the Qadiani Movement were surveyed, and upon culmination of the meeting, Mirza Tahir Ahmed issued instructions to all participants in his key address. Upon completion of the first sitting, Mirza Tahir Ahmed had a three hour-long meeting in a separate room of the very same Paramount Hotel with a few people who had arrived from Germany, Britain, Pakistan and India.
> 
> According to the report of a non-governmental Islamic organization monitoring the Qadianis, close attention was paid in this meeting to disrupt and undermine those Islamic madrasahs and Islamic centers which were in operation in different countries of the world  in particular, those which were being run under the management of individuals of the Deobandi and AhleHadith school of thought. Further meetings of the series of this very meeting continue taking place in Islamabad, a place in London. Regarding them, some important sources reveal that there is a joint mission of Qadiani organizations upon this agenda, that a watchful eye should be kept on such religious institutions and universities in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and the Maldives, which belong to the Deobandi school of thought, viz. what program do the Qadiani organizations have against Deobandi Madrasahs in particular, in the mentioned countries.
> 
> The most important Qadiani centers are located in West Java, Senegal, Sweden, Germany and Britain. The Jungles of West Java are reckoned as the safest place to provide military and espionage training for the Qadianis. Training camps are set up in the Jungles of West Java for several weeks, where trained individuals from organizations of non-Islamic countries train the Qadianis. A number of Muslims arriving from Britain, America and Germany, who are Qadianis in reality, depart on different missions  though they do not reveal themselves as Qadianis.
> 
> According to one report, important meetings of the Qadianis are held in a building known as Nasir Mosken in Sweden. Mirza Tahir Ahmed has chosen such countries and places in the world, where according to his thoughts, all meetings, training courses and his series of meetings with non-Islamic organizations would remain guarded against the secret intelligence of Islamic countries. According to one report, all expenses of the annual gatherings of the Qadianis in Germany and Britain, which run up to millions of dollars, are settled by the non-Muslims. According to some reports, hundreds of villages of African countries have accepted the Qadiani school of thought. Under the name of Islam people of these villages are being lured into Qadianism.
> 
> Non-Muslims regard Mirza Tahir Ahmed as the Pope John Paul of Muslims. In some reports, this fear is expressed, that copies of the Holy Quran which the Qadianis are distributing in different countries, are altered or tampered with.
> This much is not hidden from anyone now, that Qadiani and Christian missionary organizations are engaged in joint plans of propaganda against Islam and Islamic countries through the agency of private channels of special broadcasting companies of the world. Regarding Muslims, misleading propaganda is aired at specific times on special frequencies. Muslims are branded as extremists and Islamic penalties (penal codes) are labeled (viewed) as contravening human rights.
> 
> According to certain reports received regarding Mirza Tahir Ahmed, the Qadianis have enlisted the services of some such lobbying firms in America and Britain, which are lobbying against Pakistan in institutions like the United Nations, the American Foreign Office and International Monetary Fund. With the permission of the respective governments, Mirza Tahir Ahmed and thousands of Qadianis lecture to Muslim children in the colleges, universities and schools of Muslim communities in Europe and Africa, portraying Qadianism as the true Islam.
> 
> According to certain reports received from Britain, several dinners (functions) are held under the chairmanship of Mirza Tahir Ahmed in different cities of Britain, where, together with Qadiani men and women, English men and women are present too. During this dinner, wine and other essentials are offered to the guests. On these occasions, the Qadianis present Islam as a liberal and secular religion, due to which important personalities and parliamentarians of Britain generally attend such dinner parties too.
> 
> Meetings at the Islamic center of the Ahmadiyyas in Rosehill (Mauritius), the Nasir Baagh area in Germany and Mission House in Norway, are such places, where, along with Mirza Tahir Ahmed, the representatives of International non-Islamic Missionary Institutions attend. Acquiring a German or British visa is not too difficult for any Qadiani.
> 
> In the Dar-us-Salaam university of Tanzania too, Mirza Tahir Ahmed continues lecturing on the subject of Islam. Under the supervision of Majlis-e-Khuddam-ul-Ahmediyyah, the local governments of Britain and Germany provide special aid for their annual meetings. In the past fifteen years, meeting high-ranking officials of over 100 states, Mirza Tahir Ahmed has acquired aid for the propagation of Qadianism. In the above-mentioned period, along with the Governor General of Mauritius, Sir Dave Amawami Rangado, the Prime Minister of Mauritius, Sir Anrod Jagnath, the Prime Minister of Tanzania, Joseph Ari Uba and the Premier of the Ivory Coast, he continued meeting other important personalities. In Freetown, Sierra Leone too, there are training centers of the Ahmadiyya.
> 
> Under the name of Qadianism, the International Ahmadiyya Association is causing great harm to Islam. In Britain, their special place (abode) is Baitul Fadhl, where different personalities departing from Pakistan reside.
> 
> In January 1998, in Islamabad, London, the representatives of three important NGOs of Pakistan attended the senior leadership meeting of the Qadianis. According to sources, in this meeting, the good work of the NGOs in Pakistan was adjudged to be satisfactory. According to some reports, thousands of Muslim youth from Pakistan were successful in leaving for Britain and Germany with the help of the Qadianis, where they married into Qadiani homes. Currently, many of these youth are rendering propagatory services in different countries as supporters of the Qadianis.
> 
> It has come to light regarding Mirza Tahir Ahmed, that he has splendid mansions in America, Britain, Germany, and Singapore. Moreover, the value of his properties run into hundreds of million dollars. Along with the four mentioned mansions, there is a modern satellite system, from where, including Pakistan and India, he directly addresses approximately 50 countries via satellite. Thereafter, hundreds of thousands of audio and videocassettes of his discourses are circulated in different countries of the world.
> 
> Besides Pakistan, in approximately 100 countries, according to a regular schedule, tours are arranged for Mirza Tahir Ahmed to such schools where there is a majority of Muslim children. There, under the patronage of Mirza Tahir Ahmed, along with gifts, such Islamic booklets are distributed wherein Mirza Goolam Ahmed Qadiani is recognized as the final Nabi and the holiest personality of the Muslims. There is also an arrangement prevalent for Muslim families to take the oath of allegiance on the hands of Mirza Tahir Ahmed.
> 
> The activities of the Qadianis and the growing succession of their propaganda in 150 countries of the world in association with non-Islamic Institutions, is a matter of concern for Islamic countries. Under such circumstances, Muslims need to caution and inform their new offspring (i.e. the future generation) about the true background of the existence of Qadianis and the reality of Mirza Goolam Ahmed Qadiani.
> 
> [Courtesy the weekly Nida-i-Millat , Lahore.]

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## Kompromat

Please have a read if they Altered Quran !




> In the name of Allah, the One and Only. His Love and Peace be upon Syedna Mohammad,
> after Whom there is No Prophet, and upon His Ahle Bait and His Companions
> AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT IN (AGAINST) ISLAM
> FACT SHEET NO. 1 - An Overview
> Friday, August 25, 1995
> Dear Brothers/Sisters in Islam
> 
> Colonial era began in 17th Century when European Powers started colonizing various parts of the globe. British, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Belgain - all of them took part in this ***-race.
> 
> British came to India as traders in 18th Century and gradually usurped the power from Muslims who had been ruling the Indian Subcontinent for 1000 years. They faced repeated uprisings especially from the Muslim quarters. This was the same Movement of Jihad which had earlier forced them to leave Sudan. The Independence Movement of 1857 and the Jihad Movement of Syed Ahmed Shaheed were nearly successful in uprooting them from the Indian soil but for some black sheeps amongst the Muslim ranks, who took sides with the Colonial Masters for their petty interests and compromised Muslim resistance.
> 
> A commission of inquiry consisting of Members of British Parliament, Church Officials and Journalists, came to India in 1868 to find out ways and means of controlling this spirit of jihad. In 1870 they submitted their report entitling "THE ARRIVAL OF BRITISH EMPIRE IN INDIA." In this report they recommended that :
> 
> 
> "THE MENTALITY OF INDIAN MUSLIMS IS SUCH THAT IF THEY ACCEPT SOMEBODY AS THEIR RELIGIOUS LEADER, THEN THEY FOLLOW THEM BLINDLY. IF WE CAN FIND SOMEONE WHO CAN CLAIM TO BE AN APOSTOLIC PROPHET, OUR TARGET CAN BE ACHIEVED."
> 
> Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India, was selected for the task.
> Years later, he admitted in his letter to the Lt. Governor of Punjab that he is the SELF IMPLANTED & SELF CULTIVATED SEEDLING OF THE BRITISH MASTERS. In another letter to Queen Victoria on the occasion of Silver Jubilee Celebrations of her coronation, he reminded her of the services rendered by his father (who donated fifty armed horsemen to fight against the Muslims in the Mutiny of 1857, to prove his loyalty to the Raj) and his own CONTRIBUTION of FIFTY THOUSAND leaflets, treatises, and books written, printed and distributed in various Muslim countries,
> 
> 
> "TO REMOVE THE ****** IDEAS OF JIHAD FROM
> THE HEARTS OF STUPID MUSLIMS."
> 
> the proof of his unswerving loyalty to the British Raj.
> 
> Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was born in 1839/1840 in a Mughal Barlas landlord family, who had lost all its lands at the hands of Sikh Rulers. With the coming of British, the family saw a chance to regain the lost estate and became their faithful servants. Mirza recieved formal religious education at home and studied medicine from his father. Being of weak mind, his father used to discourage him from indulging in books. Around 25 years of age, he ran away from home with his father's yearly pension and spent it in various undesirable pursuits. Later he took up a clerical appointment at a civil court in Sialkot. Here he befriended certain Christian Padres, who were later on responsible for his selection as a candidate for 'apostolic prophet'.
> 
> According to his writings, Mirza Ghulam suffered from various illnesses including melancholia, hypochondriasis, paranoia, fits of unconsciousness, attacks of hysteria, dizzy turns, diabetes mellitus, excessive urination of upto 100 times per day, impotence etc. etc. He used to consume wine to boost his health. Under divine instructions he prepared a special medicine called, 'TIRYAQ-E-ILAHI' , a major component of which was opium . Not only he, but others in his jama'at were also using this medicine for sexual energy, amongst them Hakeem Nuruddin, the 1st Successor and Mirza Basheeruddin Mahmood, Mirza's son and his 2nd Successor.
> 
> A combination of mental sickness, wine and opium is enough for anyone to become God. Hence it was not surprising that the sudden emotional trauma due to his fathers death when he was around 37 years old, precipitated Acute Psychotic Illness with Auditory and Visual Hallucinations and Delusions of Grandeur. He thought that he was inspired by God AlMighty!
> 
> Mirza claimed to be recipient of revelation thrrough angels called Teechee Teechee and Ail . His revelation informed him that God has named him after all the previous Holy Prophets. Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya became the book of God and whomsoever did not accept his prophethood were labeled by him as Children of Prostitute, considered to be Disobedient of Allah and Holy Prophet PBUH, out of the fold of Islam and doomed to hell.
> 
> Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian claimed to be the 1) Promised Messiah, 2) Mahdi, 3)Prophet, 4) Messenger and 5) Second Advent of Holy Prophet Mohammed PBUH, ALL IN ONE, who has come again in the person of Mirza Ghulam A. Qadiani to propagate Islam! Now he was none other than Holy Prophet himself, his followers became Sahaba, his family assumed the title of Ahle Bait and his wife was addressed as Umm-ul-Momineen!!
> 
> Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani boasted that his claims are based on (his own distorted interpretation of) Holy Quran and His Own revelation. He announced:
> 
> "Like a waste paper, I discard all those Hadiths (of Holy Prophet PBUH) which are contradictory to my Revelations and Claims."
> (Zamima Nuzool-e-Maseeh, Roohani Khazain Vol 19 p.140)
> 
> 
> *His 80 books, collected and published as Roohani Khazain by Ahmadiya Movement, illustrate his heretical views and provides an insight into the personality of this man. Although Ahmadiyya Movement claims to have printed Holy Quran with their own (altered and distorted) translation in 120 different languages, but it is surprising that the books written by this so-called Promised Messiah and Mahdi have hardly been translated into English! Request by us for permission to translate and print these books were turn down by the Ahmadiyya Movement HQ in London! *
> 
> Perhaps Ahmadiyya Movement does not like to bring to light the personality of its founder and his real beliefs, lest their fraud be exposed.
> 
> Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani established Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam in 1889. His followers were called Ahmadis. By his edict, all those who did not follow him were out of the fold of Islam. Ahmadis were forbidden to pray behind a Muslim Imam, offer funeral prayer of other muslims or intermarry with other Muslims (because everybody else was a Kafir except Ahmadis!) . He abrogated jihad and declared that loyalty to the British Raj is the religious responsibility of every Muslim and whoever lifts a sword against them is disobedient of Allah and his Prophet.
> 
> Ahmadiyya Movement continued to flourish under the benevolent patronage of British Rulers and Muslims could do little to obliterate the advances of Mirza Ghulam's heretical doctrines. However, one of his fiercest opponent , Molvi Sanaullah Amratsari, pestered him so much that in 1907 he invited him for a prayer duel. He advertised his supplication to Allah AlMighty pleading Him to annihilate the liar amongst the two in the lifetime of truthful one, by Cholera or Plague. He considered them to be the sign of Divine Anger and Punishment. Mirza died of cholera within one year!! Ironically, his dead body was carried from Lahore to Qadian in a Rialway Carriage - the same Vehicle, which in his opinion was the Transport of THE PROMISED MASEEH AlDAJJAL - the Grand Liar!!
> Molvi Sanaullah Amratsari lived for 40 years after Mirza's death.
> 
> Mirza Ghulam was succeeded by the so-called "Khulafa alRashideen", of whom the Fourth Khalifa, Mirza Tahir Ahmad Qadiani, the grandson of Mirza, is now residing in their present Headquarters in London. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and his followers (qadiani/ahmad/mirzai/lahori) have been unanimously declared Apostates, Disbelievers (Kafirs) and Out of the fold of Islam by religious scholars of all schools of Fiqh (Sunni, Ahle Hadith, Shi etc..).
> 
> Mauritius was the first country to declare them non-Muslims in 1930's, followed by South Africa. In 1974, Islamic Republic of Pakistan became the first Muslim country to pass a law and legally declared Qadianis/Ahmadis/Lahoris a non-Muslim minority, giving them all the rights of a minority that are gauranteed in its constitution. In the same year, An International Convention of Islamic Scholars was held in Makkah AlMukarramah under the auspeces of Rabita AlAlam AlIslami. Scholars from 124 countries unanimously declared Qadianis/Ahmadis as non-Muslim, disbelievers and out of the fold of Islam. This sealed the fate of this creed for ever in the Arab World and other Muslim Nations.
> 
> Despite these religious edicts, Ahmadiyya Movement and its followers (ahmadis) continue to pretend to be Muslim and the Champions of Islam, who are admired by the Westerners for their moderate views. The reason for their obstinacy is quite obvious. They are the fifth columnists amongst the Muslims and their so-called islamic identity provide a cover for their clandestine activities while they continue to serve the interests of their masters.
> 
> Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam is a Religio-Political Trading Corporation.It has branches in all countries and all major cities of the world under whose umbrella Qadianis/Ahmadis are systematically trapping Muslims, who are ignorant of their evil designs. Whether in America, Europe or Central Asia, or the underprivileged and displaced communities like Africans and Bosnian Refugees, all those who are not aware of the real motives of Ahmadiyya Movement get trapped by them in the name of Islam. 50,000 Muslims in Mali, 24,000 Muslims in Ivory Coast, 100,000 Bosnian Refugees in Europe and 45000 Albanians are just a few victims of Qadiani Onslaught.
> 
> With the fall of Communism, West has suddenly realized that Islam is a bigger threat to their degenerating society. Moral deprivation and purposeless material life style has created a Spiritual Vacuum in the lives of Westerners and they are greatly attracted towards Islam. Islam is thus the fastest growing religion in the West, which is very alarming for them. It is under such circumstances that this seedling implanted more than 100 years ago is paying dividends. Amongst other strategies adopted to check the growth of Islam, supporting the activities of Ahmadiyya Movement is another way of halting this progress.
> 
> A Muslim converted to Ahmadiyyat is one Muslim less.
> They know it just as the Qadiani hierarchy knows it. Towards this goal, the movement is doing the following
> 
> AHMADIYYA PROPAGANDA PROJECTS
> every ahmadi is contributing 6-30&#37; of his savings to the Jama'at, to sustain the Qadiani Royal Family and to propagate Ahmadiyyat.
> printing weekly and monthly periodicals in 120 different languages.
> In 1989 Christian Missionaries working in Ethiopia spent $35 million to publish distribute free Qadiani Literature in West African countries
> Jewish Leader of the New York Business Community donated a computerized printing press on the birthday of Mirza Tahir Ahmad, Imam of Ahmadiayya Jama'at
> Muslim Television Ahmadiyya has been set up in North London. It has hired 4 Satelites for its world wide transmission of recorded as well as live programs in 13 different languages, an investment which even a rich country can not afford.
> Ahmadiyya Radio is broadcasting daily programs in Urdu, English, Bengali and Russian since Jan 1994.
> Distributing Holy Qurans with their own distorted and corrupt translations and other Islamic literature in various communities like Africans, Bosnians, Albanians, Central Asian & Russian Muslims etc.
> Setting up mosques and centers in various countries.
> 
> How Ahmadiyya Movement is funding all such projects, is anybody's guess. Suffice is to say that the amount collected by donations from the wealthy qadianis/ahmadis is not enough to even sustain the Qadiani Royal Family all over the world.
> 
> Today Ahmadiyya Cult asserts having a community strength of 10 million qadianis/ahmadis all over the world. 99.99% are converts from Islam!! What a loss to the nation! The reasons for these conversions are :
> Ignorance from Teachings of Islam;
> Ignorance about Mirza Ghulam, Ahmadiyya Movement and its evil designs;
> Poverty.
> Financial and sexual incentives used to be the most attractive charm to become a qadiani. But in recent times, Ahmadiyya Movement is using another ploy to trap Muslims. Through their unfounded propaganda of the so-called persecution of ahmadis in Pakistan, they have managed to attract the attention of Human Rights Organisations. Western Govermments, being the so-called champions of human rights, are granting immigration and asylum to qadianis/ahmadis from Pakistan. All one has to do is to take an oath of allegiance (and sell his faith for petty material gains) to Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani. Ahmadiyya Jama'at issues a certificate and on its ground a person gets an asylum along with a qadiani girl to marry!
> 
> Dear Brother!
> Help us in making other Muslim brothers aware of this pious fraud in the name of Islam. It is hurting Islam form within. Knowing Islam is essential BUT NOT ENOUGH to protect you from Ahmadiyya Fraud. You have to know about the ilk of Ahmadiyya Movement to protect your faith.
> 
> 
> A Word Of Advice to Qadianis/Ahmadis
> Read the books of Mirza Ghulam with an open heart. It is all there. He said "anyone who has not read my books at least three times, his faith is in doubt." I am sure none of you have read these books even once. How can you? 30% of his books are in Persian and Arabic and the rest are in Urdu. How many of you know all three languages? If after reading them you still insist on believing in his claims, then is your choice. But then, since you have :
> 
> your very own prophet
> *your own holy book called Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya*
> *your own holy city of Qadian
> your own pilgrimage to Qadian*
> your own heavenly graveyard
> your own Masjid-e-Aqsa
> *your own meaning of KALIMA in which Mirza gets included automatically*your own 'Holy Family'
> your own set of 'Companions'
> *your own religion called Ahmadiyyat*
> 
> In other words you have a Parallel Nation to Islam!
> You desecrate everything sacrosanct to a Muslim! You play with the sentiments of about 1 Billion followers and yet you expect them not to react. Stop this Sacrilege. Stop decieving people in the name of Islam. Give your creed any name other than Islam and believe me, Muslims will be as tolerant towards you as they are towards people of the other faith.
> 
> May Allah open your heart for Islam.
> May Allah protect all Muslims from the evil forces against Islam. Ameen.
> 
> Yours truly in Islam
> 
> Dr. Syed Rashid Ali
> 
> For further information, please apply to;
> to: rasyed@emirates.net.ae
> 
> or
> 
> P.O Box 11560
> Dibba AlFujairah
> United Arab Emirates


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## T-Faz

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How have Ahmadi's corrupted your religion?
> 
> Did they sneak some pork into your breakfast? Did they sneak into your home and alter the Quran?
> 
> Isn't the fact that you are not an Ahmadi proof that they have in fact not corrupted your religion?
> 
> If some people agree with their message, they can accept them, if some don't, they can reject them.
> 
> It isn't really up to you or anyone else to determine whose faith is valid and whose faith is not. Mind your own business, and let the Ahmadis live their life as they see fit. Have some respect for the beliefs of others and their rights to live without being subjected to discrimination and prejudice.



Agnostic Muslim, you are the best. Well done Sir.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Black Blood said:


> Yes they did alter the Religion in the First Place & this is why we Put a Line in between them and us.
> 
> Now they are a Different Religion thus subject to be called a Minority and have access to all rights that minorities enjoy.
> 
> Me , Zaki , you or anyone can't judge them upon their believes.
> 
> Please consider this Report.



BB, 

If they have altered anything, then it is their own faith and their own beliefs.

If they wish to call their religion Islam and follow it a particular way, then what concern is it of the State?

If the Sunni and Shia scholars wish to say that the Qadiani way of life is not 'true Islam' then that is their right as religious scholars, just as it is the Qadiani's right to declare themselves Muslim - but they cannot and should not also demand that the State should declare Qadianis non-Muslims.

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## T-Faz

Like Mohammed Ali Jinnah said and I quote:

*Anyone who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim and that anyone who says otherwise is conspiring against the Muslim cause.*

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## Nahraf

The violence against Qadianis have been unfortunate. But the Qadianis have been very aggressive in both Pakistan and other parts of the world. They have themselves broken one of the cardinal rule of Islam. They are no longer Muslims and their insistence for being Muslims and aggressive missionary activity only brings limelight on them. I don't see that kind of negative feeling against Christians, Hindus, Parsis, etc that I see against Qadianis in Pakistan and abroad.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nahraf said:


> The violence against Qadianis have been unfortunate. But the Qadianis have been very aggressive in both Pakistan and other parts of the world. They have themselves broken one of the cardinal rule of Islam. They are no longer Muslims and their insistence for being Muslims and aggressive missionary activity only brings limelight on them. I don't see that kind of negative feeling against Christians, Hindus, Parsis, etc that I see against Qadianis in Pakistan and abroad.


The fact that some Pakistanis can harbor such animosity and prejudice against a community solely on the basis of the tenets of that community's faith shows, to me, that these Pakistanis need to get a life and grow up, instead of demonizing an entire community on the basis of their faith.

How does it affect your faith if the Qadianis are aggressive missionaries and insist on being called Muslims? Why don't you counter them with your own aggressive missionaries and ideas? Are your ideas and faith that weak that you have to resort to 'cheating' by having the State step in and impose discriminatory restrictions on Qadianis?

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## khanz

Areesh said:


> I totally agree with you Mr Black Blood. Ahmadis not only betrayed Islam but our country too. I saw many Ahmadis taking asylum in European countries saying that they are muslims and are facing persecution in Pakistan. They brought disgrace to our country.



If we treated them equally we wouldn't have that problem they complain about us in the west because they ARE facing persecuation in pakistan ! heck take this topic for example did u read this thread look at the replies most people here are outright advocating discrimination against them .Remember abdus salam look at the way they treated him when he was alive he only ever worked FOR pakistan still just coz of his religion only they treated him so badly even in death did they not leave him alone and felt the need to vandalize his gravestone coz it had "muslim" on it seriously don't our government have anything better to do ? 
I'm really sad so many pakistanis think like this until most of them believe in equality theres gonna continue to be violence against minorities and pakistan is gonna continue to be looked at as an oppressive and intolerant country

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## Nahraf

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ..... Pakistanis need to get a life and grow up, .......



The Qadianis use deceptions, equivocations, concealments and disquise their beliefs. I don't see Christians, Hindus, etc. doing that in Pakistan. Mirza Ghulam Qadiani himself declared that anybody that does not believe in his prophethood or messiahood is not a true believer so he himself divided his flock from Islam. I think the Qadianis should grow up and anaylze the situation. They should control their missionary activity in Pakistan since that is one of the major causes of violence against them.

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## Meesna

Nahraf said:


> Mirza Ghulam Qadiani himself declared that anybody that does not believe in his prophethood or messiahood is not a true believer



I think any prophet would say that or he is not a prophet but on the same grounds Christians can justify persecuting Muslims as Muslim call them kafir and Jews can kill Christians on same grounds. But more than that all sects of Islam call each other kafir and below video will prove that;





Same is the problem in other religions and various sects have been persecuting each other and calling kafir. Protestants and Catholics for example.

Point is people can believe what they want but as long as they are peaceful and not inciting anyone to break fair laws then they are fine and no one has a right to create problem for them, and doing so would be persecution.

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## Meesna

Nahraf said:


> They should control their missionary activity in Pakistan since that is one of the major causes of violence against them.



On the same grounds if they block you from missionary work and close your mosques in Canada how would that be? Let's see you support that. 

One rule for yourself and another for others?

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## Nahraf

There are many people in all Muslim sects that declare each other kaffir but they all agree that Qadianis are not Muslims. Nobody from these sects has declared themselves as prophet and messiah as Mirza Ghulam Qadiani has done. Even the Ismailis that have deviated from mainstream Islam have never broken the cardinal rule on finality of prophethood (Khatmay-Nabuwat).


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> We are nobody to judge them upon their believes as it is already been done.



Yeah by taking away their fundamental rights and decades of persecution which is still ongoing.



> What we are concerned about is their Anti state (Pakistan) activities , them participating in Israeli Army is a big NO NO.



How many Ahmadis have been convicted of any such activity? Are there any names you can name that were participants? All this seems as made up stories, no proof is provided and no convictions are ever even attempted. Why is state of Pakistan unable to convict a single Ahmadi for the said crimes when on the other hand its so bent on persecuting them and would love it if any real evidence against Ahmadis came through.



> I want them to live in co existance with peace with other Minorities and Muslims in particular But only if they stop Harming Pakistan from With in.



How many Ahmadis have been found guilty of harming Pakistan? In contrast I can name a lot of others; politicians, generals, religious organizations, even some elements of media who have demonstratively harmed Pakistan. Shouldn&#8217;t you be worried about them instead if you are really concerned about safety of Pakistan and not about persecuting Ahmadis?



> I am not Generalizing all Ahamdis as Traitors but they do have a lot of them who would do anything to get this Nation under havok.



Name a few Ahmadis with evidence who have created havok. Fact is, in contrast to other groups its almost impossible to find a single Ahmadi who has demonstratively done any harm to Pakistan. This shows they are more beneficial and loyal to Pakistan than others, doesn't it? 

A quick search of the Wikipedia brings this up;

Abdus Salam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PAEC, PINSTECH, SUPPARCO, KANUUP, ICTP (which sponsors many Pakistanis), Superior Science Colleges, Nobel Prize

Muhammad Zafrulla Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kashmir Resolutions on which Pakistan's Kashmir case is based

Akhtar Hussain Malik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Was about to take over Ikhnor in 1965 war when he was replaced by Yahya Khan, delaying the offensive

Iftikhar Janjua - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Run of Kutch, Iftikhar Janjua Road in Rawalpindi is named after him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Muzaffar_Ahmad
Mangla Tarbela Dams, irrigation network



> Simply They are welcomed as normal citizens but their Anti pakistan activities are NOT.



Please please please prove all these allegations in a court of law. With the bent courts in Pakistan you should not have problem getting a guilty verdict if you had an ounce of proof.

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## Meesna

Nahraf said:


> There are many people in all Muslim sects that declare each other kaffir but they all agree that Qadianis are not Muslims.



All sects agree that the remaining sect is kafir. I'm surprised this missed your observations. Pick any sect and there are fatwas of kufr against them from other sects. 



> Nobody from these sects has declared themselves as prophet and messiah as Mirza Ghulam Qadiani has done. Even the Ismailis that have deviated from mainstream Islam have never broken the cardinal rule on finality of prophethood (Khatmay-Nabuwat).



If one person can claim prophethood then so can another. If not, then persecution of all prophets would be justified as they claimed something to which people of their age did not agree with and considered them false prophets. Not only that, in this day and age non-Muslims, the vast majority of the world, consider Islam to be a false religion and that would technically give them right to persecute Muslims.

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## Kompromat

canada is a secular society where as Pakistan is an Islamic republic.
Remember this difference.


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> canada is a secular society where as Pakistan is an Islamic republic.
> Remember this difference.



So you accept Secularism is a superior system which gives humans due respect and their rights, and treats them equally even when religious conflicts are involved, unlike Islam? You have just given a very solid reason why we should have secularism in Pakistan too.

btw here is an example of "Ahmadis raising havoc"; to borrow your phrase;



> Now talking about the Ahmadis, here's a very meaningful excerpt from Sardar Shaukat Hayat:
> 
> "Qaid-e-Azam sent me a message saying 'Shaukat, I have come to know that you're going to Qadian which is only five miles from Qadian. Please go there and convey my request to the leader of the Ahmadi community , Mirza Bashirudding to extend his support and blessings for the establishment of Pakistan'." I reached Qadian at 12 noon and was told that Mirza sahab was taking rest. I informed him I had come with a message from Qaid-e-Azam. He came down at once and asked me what Qaid-e-Azam's instructions were. I replied that Qaid-e-Azam had sought his blessings and co-operation. He said that he himself was praying for the success of his mission and so far as the support of his followers was concerned, no Ahmadi would contest elections against the Muslim League and if any one defied this decision, he would not get the support of his community. As a result of the meeting, Mumtaz Daulatana of the Muslim League defeated an Ahmadi Nawab Mohammad Deen from Sialkot constituency by huge margin."
> 
> Now let's have a look at what Syed Abul Ala Maudoodi had to say in support of Paksitan as told by Sardar Shaukat Hayat:
> 
> "Reaching Pathankot, I met *Maulana Maudoodi* at Qaid-e-Azam's behest. He was staying at the garden adjacent to the village of Chaudhry Niaz. When I conveyed Qaid-e-Azam's message to him asking for his blessings and support, he replied *he could never pray for Napak-istan ( unholy state)* adding that Pakistan could not come into existence until the entire population in India did not become Muslim. That was the vision and point of view of the leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami.(Translated by Sohail Arshad)



NewAgeIslam.com: Urdu Section; OBJECTIVES RESOLUTION AND SECULARISM-PART VI

You should be calling Jamaat Islami traitors, not Ahmadis.

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## Kompromat

As i said most of the traitors are sitting overseas and cannot be held responsible for their activities.

Any prosecution will be tagged as religiously motivated blashmy laws no avail.

i think ahmadis should be given full civilian rights but they must be barred from preaching their agenda as it is offensive to 98&#37; people and creates haterd.


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## Kompromat

your link is from an ahamdi run website hence not valid.
bring some nuteral source.


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## Kompromat

lets not discuss Secularism or Islam here .
We have few threads go there have your say and i will answer that.


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## T-Faz

You wahabis are the reason Islam is suffering, you ideology and teaching of hatred has weakened us so much that any weak country can accuse muslims, malign them and kill millions without any consequences.

While you are fighting other muslims, other people have destroyed and tarnished the image of Islam. Have some shame and ask Allah for mercy. Let god be the judge and let him decide who is right and who is wrong.

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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> As i said most of the traitors are sitting overseas and cannot be held responsible for their activities.



Anyone can be tried in absentia. Alas with no proof trial would not be possible, the real reason for not conducting such trial.



> Any prosecution will be tagged as religiously motivated blashmy laws no avail.
> 
> i think ahmadis should be given full civilian rights but they must be barred from preaching their agenda as it is offensive to 98&#37; people and creates haterd.



Being offensive is no excuse, all religions and sects are offensive to others not to mention other ideologies. Some find hijab and mosque minaret's offensive. Let's not support such bigots and justify their actions.

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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> your link is from an ahamdi run website hence not valid.
> bring some nuteral source.



Sardar Shaukat Hayat was not Ahmadi. Check his book.

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## Kompromat

Dont bring secterianism BS here T-Faz .

That is a different topic.


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## Hyde

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How have Ahmadi's corrupted your religion?
> 
> Did they sneak some pork into your breakfast? Did they sneak into your home and alter the Quran?
> 
> Isn't the fact that you are not an Ahmadi proof that they have in fact not corrupted your religion?
> 
> If some people agree with their message, they can accept them, if some don't, they can reject them.
> 
> It isn't really up to you or anyone else to determine whose faith is valid and whose faith is not. Mind your own business, and let the Ahmadis live their life as they see fit. Have some respect for the beliefs of others and their rights to live without being subjected to discrimination and prejudice.



As i said before i am a very peace loving person and ready to live with all other religions in fact i love multi religion socities. But if you really know the foundations of Ahmedis religion i am sure its activities will not acceptable to you also. The problem is apparently they are 99&#37; like us but their foundations clashes with the Muslims. They have similar mosques, same quran, similar point of view of God. That the non-Muslims cannot really differ between us and them.

Thats what my problem is......... there are so many "Ignorents" in Pakistan who cannot understand the difference between Qadiyanis and us and if they are not educated properly many of them will start following their fath. We are Islamic republic of Pakistan that also provides equal rights to non-Muslims to live in but anything against Islam cannot be acceptable in this country. The activities of Ahmedis are against Islam and whoever "ignorent" listens to them get brain-washed. I have lived with Ahmedis (my neighbours in Pakistan). I know a lot of Ahmedis in London and trust me they try to damage the image of Islam wherever they get chance by preaching their corrupted religion. They are most welcome to live in Pakistan as long as they don't preach their religion

I said before i am little racist only for this issue  and that too is for the betterment of Muslims living in Pakistan

My last post here

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## Kompromat

when a group thinks that they are right and 98&#37; are wrong then i dont see anything left but ignorance.

We need more laws in this matter to allow more civil liberty to ahmadis but with a condition that they do their own thing and do not offend rest of the society which does not agree with their fantacy religious claims.


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## Kompromat

zaki Khatam e nabuah is one Big thing and they deny it and i guess it is enough for a normal muslim to understand what they are up to.

Agnostic muslim has not said that he agrees with what they say but he says that ahmadis should have more civil liberty provided they give up their propegenda against islam and Pakistan.

My personal view is that since they are another faith and contradict Islam.

Laws must not allow them to have Islamic names.
Not allowed to call their tamples with dish antena TV as Masjid.
They should not be allowed to have Quran because they have changed the text.. See my earlier posts.

They should be allowed to have their members in National assembly.
Should not be allowed to preach because they offend a majority but they should have full freedom of worship.

our Mullahs should be issued a license with point system to speak in public and if they preach hate against ahmadis or anyone then they should be banned from speaking in public.

mullahs should be ristricted to Masjid activities and they must be monitored.
There should be a fatwa commity consisting of scholars from all schools of thought which should be responsible for proof reading and judging the authenticity of any fatwa given against ahmadis.
So we need laws on both sides to have controal over hatemongering and speeches moreover we need multifaith integration in our society.

Regards.


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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> lets not discuss Secularism or Islam here .
> We have few threads go there have your say and i will answer that.



What's there to discuss? You have accepted secularism's superiority in terms of tolerance and respect for others. Case is settled.

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## Meesna

Black Blood said:


> when a group thinks that they are right and 98&#37; are wrong then i dont see anything left but ignorance.



Which group thinks it is wrong and others right? You'll be an idiot to be part of such a group, be it small or large. I am sure every Muslim of any sect thinks their sect is the right one. Same with other religions and their respective sects.

You are not making any sense buddy. Think before you write.

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## notsuperstitious

Black Blood said:


> when a group thinks that they are right and 98% are wrong then i dont see anything left but ignorance.
> 
> We need more laws in this matter to allow more civil liberty to ahmadis but with a condition that they do their own thing and do not offend rest of the society which does not agree with their fantacy religious claims.



prohet mohammed had a handful supporters once, he was the leader of 2% too once, was that ignorance?

I'm surprised at the level of intolerance here. The fact abt tolerance is - you don't need to show it to only those you like or approve of, but importantly to those who you don't like.

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## Lilo

Wah! Kiya baat hai 
The contributors firing on all cylinders were having a go at the Yevil ahmedis .But sadly the mods made their presence felt forcing them to tone down their passion in the end  (only a little though ).
I think a requote of the posts in this "wonderful thread" should go a long way in bringing glory to the contributors who displayed such outstanding bigotry.


Hammy007 said:


> ...ahmadis are not muslims but that doesnt make them minority like sikhs and christians, they still believe some things from islam like shias do..





Hammy007 said:


> ... maybe taking asylum in canada is what they did by taking advantage of the situation





Black Blood said:


> But it is crystal clear that ahmadis are a cult of propegenda created by their British dadies to divide Muslims and they succeeded to do so.
> 
> we the Pakistani muslims can live in peace with all religions but not with ahmadis as they are not exactly a religion but a bunch of thugs who dont even know what they are upto.
> 
> Thus they do not deserve a minority status of a proper religion and they are allowed to do whatever the sh!t they have to do ie worshiping their satanic masters in Rabwa and do not bring their crap in rest of the country.
> 
> Again the words are simple ahmadis are not very much wanted in Pakistan because they defy fundamentals of Pakistan.
> 
> if they cant live in Pakistan like normal citizens and within their limits they should bring few more fake cases to seek asylum in UK and Canada where they can live happily ever after.
> Thanks





Black Blood said:


> They should migrate to India to seek their roots in Qadiyan and continue their pagan activities there but not In an Islamic state.





Zaki said:


> ... but i would mind if there are 5000 Ahmedi's so-called mosques in Pakistan.
> But when it come sto Ahmedis................. They are the ones who destroyed our own religion. They tried to corrupt our religion and i really feel sorry for them but at the same time would not allow them any kind of activities in Islamic republic of Pakistan. There is a tiny line between Muslims and Ahmedis and that line decides your whole faith. It decides whether you believe in the Last Prophet (PBUH) or you the fake prophets coming after him. I can write long article on it so i am stopping here.
> Please Indians do us a favour please. Take all Ahmedis in your country and i am willing to pay you





Black Blood said:


> ...They must abide by our Laws and stop acting against the state ie Qadiyanis with dual passports getting Training In Israel is quite an obvious reason why we should worry...





Black Blood said:


> ...Recently an israeli general written in his book that they are Providing Training to Qadiyanis to send them back to Pakistan.





Black Blood said:


> Yes Muslims Cant Join both Zionist Armies of India and Israel since Ahmadis are non Muslims they are doing whatever they can to join the army of Dijjal.BTW they were Pakistanis migrated to Israel.





Black Blood said:


> How can we put those Traitors on the trail while they are serving in Zionist army and waiting for their common Master the dijjal.





Gin ka Pakistan said:


> ...Ahmadis promise west to convert people in Pakistan and get money for that , as you said change religious ideology and that's what they are doing with western support....





Areesh said:


> ..They brought disgrace to our country.





Black Blood said:


> Please have a read if they Altered Quran !





Nahraf said:


> The Qadianis use deceptions, equivocations, concealments and disquise their beliefs.....





Zaki said:


> I know a lot of Ahmedis in London and trust me they try to damage the image of Islam wherever they get chance by preaching their corrupted religion. They are most welcome to live in Pakistan as long as they don't preach their religion
> I said before i am little racist only for this issue  and that too is for the betterment of Muslims living in Pakistan

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## pak-marine

The more v bring religion into the state matters it will land us in more problems nothing else ... untill we agree on one thing that a Pakistani is a Pakistani it has nothing to do with his/hers faith either if they are suni ,shia ,hindu ,christian ,ahmedi ....etc etc. 

I gues the GOP must step on it and introduce a law protecting minorities and their religion ,any indivisual or group discriminating any religion should be declared a criminal offence with strict punishments (jail term etc)!

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## pak-marine

fateh71 said:


> prohet mohammed had a handful supporters once, he was the leader of 2% too once, was that ignorance?
> 
> I'm surprised at the level of intolerance here. The fact abt tolerance is - you don't need to show it to only those you like or approve of, but importantly to those who you don't like.



Prophet Mohd (PBUH) was one man who started the journey of Islam and his character and tolerance towards Juhala won all the hearts.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Black Blood said:


> canada is a secular society where as Pakistan is an Islamic republic.
> Remember this difference.



They are so privileged in Canada that only their mosque can use load speakers to give Azan. Why do they want to live in Pakistan?


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## Gin ka Pakistan

fateh71 next time write a name with Capital letter specially of a prohet


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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> What's there to discuss? You have accepted secularism's superiority in terms of tolerance and respect for others. Case is settled.



secularism is a jingoo jungle where criminals hide.
and no one has accepted that secularism is better as it is not even compareable to Islamic values.

you cant understand that because you have never had a chance to feel what its like to belong to such a system.

indians muslims would like your comments indeed.


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## Kompromat

Meesna said:


> Which group thinks it is wrong and others right? You'll be an idiot to be part of such a group, be it small or large. I am sure every Muslim of any sect thinks their sect is the right one. Same with other religions and their respective sects.
> 
> You are not making any sense buddy. Think before you write.



well well youre getting sneaky dude.

you know what i am talking abou..ahamadis.

bear in mind all sects in Islam are just different schools of thoughts and thay are not different religions its just away they look at things and few idiotd are used to spread haterd and voilance.

If they belive about a certain incident or a religious in a particiular way it wont make their claims invalid because the source at the end of they day is Quran and hadith.

Differences are in how to undertake the practices but in a different way while the content remains the same.


Never compare any sect with qadiyanis as no matter what they think or fight they are still Muslims but Qadiyanis are Kafir or non believers.

do not disgise Qadiyaniat with Islamis sects they are not compareable.


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## qsaark

fateh71 said:


> prohet mohammed had a handful supporters once, he was the leader of 2&#37; too once, was that ignorance?
> 
> I'm surprised at the level of intolerance here. The fact abt tolerance is - you don't need to show it to only those you like or approve of, but importantly to those who you don't like.


Once, Muhammed (PBUH) had only Khadijah on his side, and the first ever male who embraced Islam on his hands was Ali Ibn Abi Talib and there is no doubt that all the religions grow from a very small number. *However, Muhammed never sneakily preached Islam in the guise of whatever religion or cult Quresh of Mekkah were following unlike what Qadiyanis are doing* hence bringing Muhammed's example is totally irrelevant and uncalled for. 

What makes Ahmedis or Qadyanis unique as well as intolerable is the fact that they call themselves Muslim which, by the ijmaa (consensus) of all the Muslim sects is incorrect and wrong. If they do not insist on calling themselves Muslim (which indeed they are not), they will be accepted as non-Muslims and enjoy the rights of non-Muslims as granted in Islam.

So Mr. Fateh71, when you try to talk about Muhammed or anybody of his stature, do your homework and get yourself educate about the subject matter. 

It is surprising that some Pakistani and I assume Muslims thanked Mr. Fateh for his uneducated post.

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## Kompromat

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> fateh71 next time write a name with Capital letter specially of a prohet



come on man we cant force non muslims to do so.


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## Hyde

qsaark said:


> Once, Muhammed (PBUH) had only Khadijah on his side, and the first ever male who embraced Islam on his hands was Ali Ibn Abi Talib and there is no doubt that all the religions grow from a very small number. *However, Muhammed never sneakily preached Islam in the guise of whatever religion or cult Quresh of Mekkah were following* hence bringing Muhammed's example is totally unrelated and uncalled for.
> 
> What makes Ahmedis or Qadyanis unique as well as intolerable is the fact that they call themselves Muslim which, by the ijmaa (consensus) of all the Muslim sects is incorrect and wrong. If they do not insist on calling themselves Muslim (which indeed they are not), they will be accepted as non-Muslims and enjoy the rights of non-Muslims as granted in Islam.
> 
> So Mr. Fateh71, when you try to talk about Muhammed or anybody of his stature, do your homework and get yourself educate about the subject matter.
> 
> It is surprising that some Pakistani and I assume Muslims thanked Mr. Fateh for his uneducated post.



Thank you

100% agreed ............ the problem is Ahmedis is that they call themselves Muslims and easily enter in the rows of Muslims

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## Vassnti

qsaark said:


> If it is the consensus of all Muslims why is it that only in Pakistan are they regarded as non-Muslims?


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## qsaark

Vassnti said:


> If it is the consensus of all Muslims why is it that only in Pakistan are they regarded as non-Muslims?


Because only in Pakistan the Ahmedis are in such a large number and virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the Muslim population. You have to understand that problem is neither their existence, nor what beliefs they have, the problem is their ability to exploit the Muslims due to the indistinguishability of their's among the rest of the Muslims.

I used to have an Ahmedi friend, who (we were around 14-15 than) would always try to convince me even give me their religious literature. His innocent efforts had no affect on me as thanks to my parents, I was well read about Islam and History. However, how many less educated Muslims he would have manged to 'detract' is anybody's guess. You would be surprised to learn that even after twenty or so years, I still regularly read Al-Fazal (an Ahmedi's magazine) only to keep myself updated on their activities. Knowledge is the ultimate weapon against such _fitna_ and our lack of knowledge is exactly what they are exploiting.

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## Kompromat

Qsaark its never been too late to be here.

Thanks


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## qsaark

Black Blood said:


> Qsaark its never been to late to be here.
> 
> Thanks


My son was preparing for his CRCT on the home laptop and I had left my own in the office.

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## Kompromat

fateh71 said:


> prohet mohammed had a handful supporters once, he was the leader of 2% too once, was that ignorance?
> 
> I'm surprised at the level of intolerance here. The fact abt tolerance is - you don't need to show it to only those you like or approve of, but importantly to those who you don't like.



I think you are unaware of what a Prophet Is Capable of.

These people had too many followers/companions as well.

Hitler
Alaxander
British Colonials
Romans
Hassan Al sabbah
Tataris
Hujaj Bin yousif
Slobodan Miloevi&#263; 
And Osama.


Indian should not teach us the amount of intolerance , they don't deserve to be on Higher Moral Ground.


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## Kompromat

qsaark said:


> Once, Muhammed (PBUH) had only Khadijah on his side, and the first ever male who embraced Islam on his hands was Ali Ibn Abi Talib and there is no doubt that all the religions grow from a very small number. *However, Muhammed never sneakily preached Islam in the guise of whatever religion or cult Quresh of Mekkah were following unlike what Qadiyanis are doing* hence bringing Muhammed's example is totally irrelevant and uncalled for.
> 
> What makes Ahmedis or Qadyanis unique as well as intolerable is the fact that they call themselves Muslim which, by the ijmaa (consensus) of all the Muslim sects is incorrect and wrong. If they do not insist on calling themselves Muslim (which indeed they are not), they will be accepted as non-Muslims and enjoy the rights of non-Muslims as granted in Islam.
> 
> So Mr. Fateh71, when you try to talk about Muhammed or anybody of his stature, do your homework and get yourself educate about the subject matter.
> 
> It is surprising that some Pakistani and I assume Muslims thanked Mr. Fateh for his uneducated post.





Beautifuly Summed up , Thanks


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## Kompromat

qsaark said:


> Because only in Pakistan the Ahmedis are in such a large number and virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the Muslim population. You have to understand that problem is neither their existence, nor what beliefs they have, the problem is their ability to exploit the Muslims due to the indistinguishability of their's among the rest of the Muslims.
> 
> I used to have an Ahmedi friend, who (we were around 14-15 than) would always try to convince me even give me their religious literature. His innocent efforts had no affect on me as thanks to my parents, I was well read about Islam and History. However, how many less educated Muslims he would have manged to 'detract' is anybody's guess. You would be surprised to learn that even after twenty or so years, I still regularly read Al-Fazal (an Ahmedi's magazine) only to keep myself updated on their activities. Knowledge is the ultimate weapon against such _fitna_ and our lack of knowledge is exactly what they are exploiting.




I think this post helps alot.

Dear sir in my Mind there are two groups among Muslims who Fell into Trap.

1: Less educated or illiterated people both in formal and Religious Education who are made to believe that they are just switching the sect and not Changing the Religion so in other words they are Misguided and tempted by offers of Marrige to a girl of their choice from the community or overseas job opportunities.

2: Group of those who defend ahmadis and they are highly Educated and fed up with Islam (Half followers) and Pakistan's islamic system and laws. ie Ghamidi.

Those who want to Ammend or Twist the believes as much as they can to accomodate their Activities and believe that islamic teachings have gone outdated and they need a rivision.

I regard those people as Secular Taliban.

""_Ki Muhammad (SAW) say wafa too nay tum ham tere hain---- yeh Jahan Kiya cheez hai , Looh'o Qalam tere hain._

Defending Mirza is not different from Following him.


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## EyelessInGaza

Black Blood said:


> secularism is a jingoo jungle where criminals hide.
> and no one has accepted that secularism is better as it is not even compareable to Islamic values.
> 
> you cant understand that because you have never had a chance to feel what its like to belong to such a system.
> 
> indians muslims would like your comments indeed.



Hi,

With respect - I am not debating you, but your ideas, BTW- what are you doing in Canada if you think secularism is a 'jingoo jungle' and Islamic values are superior?

Surely living in Pakistan or another Islamic country would be preferable?


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## notsuperstitious

qsaark said:


> Once, Muhammed (PBUH) had only Khadijah on his side, and the first ever male who embraced Islam on his hands was Ali Ibn Abi Talib and there is no doubt that all the religions grow from a very small number. *However, Muhammed never sneakily preached Islam in the guise of whatever religion or cult Quresh of Mekkah were following unlike what Qadiyanis are doing* hence bringing Muhammed's example is totally irrelevant and uncalled for.
> 
> What makes Ahmedis or Qadyanis unique as well as intolerable is the fact that they call themselves Muslim which, by the ijmaa (consensus) of all the Muslim sects is incorrect and wrong. If they do not insist on calling themselves Muslim (which indeed they are not), they will be accepted as non-Muslims and enjoy the rights of non-Muslims as granted in Islam.
> 
> So Mr. Fateh71, when you try to talk about Muhammed or anybody of his stature, do your homework and get yourself educate about the subject matter.
> 
> It is surprising that some Pakistani and I assume Muslims thanked Mr. Fateh for his uneducated post.



Qsaark, I was replying to BB's post that they are wrong because they are 2&#37; - not islamically defending ahmadis.

Secondly, even if the 98% have consensus and wish to discriminate against the 2%, thats still intolerance.

Aren't there already laws in pakistan to defend the 98% from the 2%, and yet there are cases of persecution, people advocating they should leave pakistan, go to India or Canada, that they are traitors etc etc... if thats not intolerance, then what is?

I'm surprised that you have supported the extremely intolerant views shown here by some. How an otherwise respectable person can quickly resort to extreme views when it comes to (their own) religion!

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## notsuperstitious

Black Blood said:


> Indian should not teach us the amount of intolerance , they don't deserve to be on Higher Moral Ground.



Don't hide behind your jingoism. I may be an Indian, but NEVER have I supported ill treating others in any country. You however have shown your intolerance all over this thread. I'm not taking the moral high ground, but if it comes to that, my conscience is clear.

You live in the western society, and yet can't appreciate tolerance, what a pity.

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## Kompromat

fateh71 said:


> Don't hide behind your jingoism. I may be an Indian, but NEVER have I supported ill treating others in any country. You however have shown your intolerance all over this thread. I'm not taking the moral high ground, but if it comes to that, my conscience is clear.
> 
> You live in the western society, and yet can't appreciate tolerance, what a pity.



There are many out there who know who's Hiding.
What intolerance you are talking about ? Are you even aware of the situation ?

Your incompetent knowledge wont change the reality thus you may keep on spreading your BS which wont make any difference would it ?

You indians have a serious problem of a sense of superiority and you always speak in that Falsehood.

My Points are clear.

1: we are a Muslim society
2: We allow full freedom of worship to other religions
3: Qadiyanis are NOT yet a Minority as they are trying to Disguise in Muslims so we need more laws for it.

4: Once they get a minority status they would enjoy what others do.
5: They Must Stop offending Muslims or the response would be natural.

6: They must stop anti Pakistan and pro zionist activities.

Its all about give and take so my POV is clear now if you came up again with your stupid claims then i will deal with you accordingly.

Regrds:


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## Kompromat

fateh71 said:


> Qsaark, I was replying to BB's post that they are wrong because they are 2% - not islamically defending ahmadis.
> 
> Secondly, even if the 98% have consensus and wish to discriminate against the 2%, thats still intolerance.
> 
> Aren't there already laws in pakistan to defend the 98% from the 2%, and yet there are cases of persecution, people advocating they should leave pakistan, go to India or Canada, that they are traitors etc etc... if thats not intolerance, then what is?
> 
> I'm surprised that you have supported the extremely intolerant views shown here by some. How an otherwise respectable person can quickly resort to extreme views when it comes to (their own) religion!



Now here we can see your own comments backfired upon you didn't they ?

Here we see you are being defensive and losing ground because you are wrong.

There is NO intolerance against Ahmadis as long as they do not involve in anti state activities and support our enemies.

When everyone else in Pakistan was crying upon Indian Invasion of east Pakistan and the saperation of Dhaka the ahmadis were celebrating and distributing sweets in Rabwah.

Before you lecture us about intolerance in our society you better look on your own A$$ first , what you are doing in Kashmir and other well recored issues.

Qassrk has hit the nail on the head !!


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## Kompromat

EyelessInGaza said:


> Hi,
> 
> With respect - I am not debating you, but your ideas, BTW- what are you doing in Canada if you think secularism is a 'jingoo jungle' and Islamic values are superior?
> 
> Surely living in Pakistan or another Islamic country would be preferable?



So you are turning the comments the other way around ain't you ?
I am not a fan of secularism as i have lived in a secular society most of my life and i have seen more intolerance than an Islamic society .

Islamic values can be applied from an individual life to a Nation & when Secular Muslims can exist in an islamic society why not an Islamic minded person exist in a secular society ??

You comments dont make any sense to me


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## kugga

Why Dawn news didn't tell people about the grandson of MIrza Ghulam Ahmad Qadyan(The spirtual leader of Ahmadis) being beaten by Ahmadis just because he accepted Islam.... ???


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## Kompromat

kugga said:


> Why Dawn news didn't tell people about the grandson of MIrza Ghulam Ahmad Qadyan(The spirtual leader of Ahmadis) being beaten by Ahmadis just because he accepted Islam.... ???



Here is the Link:







http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/42171-qadiyanies-tortured-their-leaders-grandson-reverting-back-islam.html


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## Kompromat

*Qadiani&#8217;s great grandson meets JI ex-Ameer
Published: January 07, 2010*

LAHORE - Great grandson of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani, Abdur Rahman, who has reverted to Islam, called on Qazi Hussain Ahmed, former Ameer Jama&#8217;at-e-Islami, at Mansoora on Wednesday. Allama Ibtisam Elahi Zaheer, son of Allama Ehsan Elahi Zaheer accompanied him.

Abdur Rahman, elder son of Mirza Nasir Ahmed, rejoined Islam&#8217;s fold in the year 1999 after going through Allama Ihsan Elahi&#8217;s book &#8220;Qadiniat, Mirzayat and Islam&#8221;. He has command over seven languages and is working as translator at Bhasha Dam.

Abdur Rahman told Qazi that after reverting to Islam, he had given up his inherited property. Last year, he had applied for Hajj and the Saudi authorities asked for documentary evidence of his rejoining Islam, which he produced. He alleged that a fortnight ago, a group of Qadianis abducted him and subjected him to severe torture at Aiwan-e-Mahmud, near Ganga Ram Hospital and his nose was fractured. He became unconscious after which they abandoned him near Anarkali Bazaar. Allama Ibtisam Elahi provided him protection and arranged his medical treatment.

Qazi Hussain Ahmed condemned torture on him and said this had exposed the cruel face of Qadianiat. He told Abdur Rahman that his reversion to Islam was a breakthrough and big news. He said that if the people in Rabwah were given basic human rights, their majority would revert to Islam. At present, he said, the Rabwah people were under great pressure. He called upon the government to provide proper security to Abdur Rahman and warned that if any harm came to him, the Qadianis would be held responsible. He said that the Muslims all over the world were happy over Abdur Rahman&#8217;s rejoining Islam. He also thanked the religious parties for expressing solidarity with Abdur Rahman.

Qadiani's great grandson meets JI ex-Ameer - The daily Nation, Pakistan


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## T-Faz

If Mohammed Ali Jinnah the founder of the country did not have a problem with it, who are you question the authority of our nations father. No wonder the army and ISI is killing Islamic leaders left and right.

They know what the ill of our country and is and what is holding us back. At the end who so ever is right will stand and who so ever is wrong will suffer.


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## Kompromat

*Decision of Divine Court
For Qadianis who call themselves Ahmadis 
Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was a Liar*
(In light of his own Writings)

Mubahala means that two parties come out together in the open, facing each other, to present their case in the court of Allah(SWT), the Exalted, and invoke Him for seeking His decision as to who is truthful and who is a liar. Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was not sincere enough to participate in a face to face Mubahala, but he stated that, according to him, a prayer duel from a distance would also be effective. 

THEREFORE


Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani conducted a Mubahala with Maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi (Allah's mercy on him), in Eidgah ground of Amristar on Zeeqadah 10, 1310 A.H. 
(Majmuai-Ishtiharat Mirza Qadiani, Vol. 1, P. 427)

Maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi's 'Mubahala' was on this issue that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and all his believers were kafirs, liars, impostors and faithless.
(Majmuai-Ishtiharat Mirza Qadiani, Vol. 1, P. 425)

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani had said on Oct. 2, 1907 (7 months, 24 days before his death) that "the liar among the participants in a Mubahala dies during the lifetime of the truthful."
(Majmuai-Ishtiharat Mirza Qadiani, Vol. 9, P.440)

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani died during the lifetime of Maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi on May 26, 1908, whereas Maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi (Allah's mercy on him) expired 9 years later, on May 16, 1917. 
(Rais-e-Qadian, Vol. 2, P. 192) 
RESPECTED READERS 

Mirza Qadiani's death during Maulana Ghaznavi's life, as a consequence of Mubahala, is an unqualified decision of the divine court. The result is clear: Mirza Qadiani was a liar and those who believe in him - after the truth has been conveyed to them - are kafirs, apostates, pretenders and dualist-infidels. If Mirza Tahir Qadiani and his Qadiani group have any faith in the Divine decision, then they are duty bound to accept this decision and proclaim Mirza Ghulam Qadiani -- the one-eyed impostor -- a fraud and renounce Qadianism; otherwise, the world will be bound to consider Mirza Tahir and all the Qadianis as individuals who have denounced Allah.

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## Kompromat

T-Faz said:


> If Mohammed Ali Jinnah the founder of the country did not have a problem with it, who are you question the authority of our nations father. No wonder the army and ISI is killing Islamic leaders left and right.
> 
> They know what the ill of our country and is and what is holding us back. At the end who so ever is right will stand and who so ever is wrong will suffer.



Was this comment really for this tread ?


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## T-Faz

Black Blood said:


> Was this comment really for this tread ?



Bhai Sahab, Maaf karo ab. How many more news will you pull out from your internet searches. 

Enjoy your life son, and let live.

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## notsuperstitious

@ BB - My Points are clear.

1: we are a Muslim society - no you are a muslim majority society and a professed muslim state
2: We allow full freedom of worship to other religions - No you don't. if i follow other religions i get disqualified from running for president and PM.
3: Qadiyanis are NOT yet a Minority as they are trying to Disguise in Muslims so we need more laws for it. By your own law they are not muslim, so that point is invalid.
4: Once they get a minority status they would enjoy what others do. By your own law they are not muslim, so that point is invalid 
5: They Must Stop offending Muslims or the response would be natural. Intolerance is natural to muslims? I don't think so. I know plenty of tolerant muslims.
6: They must stop anti Pakistan and pro zionist activities. If any of their activities are illegal then law takes its course, but their crime is to hurt your sense of purity, then its your own problem and you should get treated instead of blaming others.

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## notsuperstitious

Black Blood said:


> Now here we can see your own comments backfired upon you didn't they ?
> 
> Here we see you are being defensive and losing ground because you are wrong.
> 
> There is NO intolerance against Ahmadis as long as they do not involve in anti state activities and support our enemies.
> 
> When everyone else in Pakistan was crying upon Indian Invasion of east Pakistan and the saperation of Dhaka the ahmadis were celebrating and distributing sweets in Rabwah.
> 
> Before you lecture us about intolerance in our society you better look on your own A$$ first , what you are doing in Kashmir and other well recored issues.
> 
> Qassrk has hit the nail on the head !!



Nice try at passing off a rant as a declaration of victory. Read again, you have made no points.

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## ice_man

being a muslim our religion ends at the Prophet! if you don't believe that regardless of being,shia or sunni you are kharij from islam! so all i am saying is if Ahmediyas want minority rights then they should first call themselves a minority the minute they call themselves a muslim they cannot be considered a minority!

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## qsaark

T-Faz said:


> If Mohammed Ali Jinnah the founder of the country did not have a problem with it, who are you question the authority of our nations father. No wonder the army and ISI is killing Islamic leaders left and right.
> 
> They know what the ill of our country and is and what is holding us back. At the end who so ever is right will stand and who so ever is wrong will suffer.


Jinnah was a political leader, he also used to drink and eat pork so what? We should also start drinking and eating pork because 'father of the nation' had also done so? He had a larger goal, to get Pakistan from the British, why on earth would he raise the issue of Qaadyaniat at that time? Stop bringing Jinnah into this because he was not a Rasool Allah or even a Muslim Scholar, he was only a Politician with a fixed political goal.

And Army/ISI is not killing 'Islamic leaders' left and right but those uneducated thugs who want to further their agenda in the name of Islam. I am very sorry to see that you can not even distinguish between an Islamic leader/Scholar and TTP thugs and only to prove a point (which of course is no point in the first place) dragging the Army action into this.

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## Kompromat

T-Faz said:


> Bhai Sahab, Maaf karo ab. How many more news will you pull out from your internet searches.
> 
> Enjoy your life son, and let live.



I am not the one snubbing anyone's Right to live in Peace.
Peace comes at a cost and those who want to live in peace must pay that.


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## Kompromat

fateh71 said:


> @ BB - My Points are clear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no you are a muslim majority society and a professed muslim state
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now You will tell us who we are and who we aren't ? You are not a part of our society so you are not the Right person to give a verdict upon it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No you don't. if i follow other religions i get disqualified from running for president and PM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> Yes an Islamic State can't be Run by a Non Muslim is it too hard to understand or admit ?
> Our ex-cheif Justice Rana Bhagwandas was a Hindu.
> 
> BTW i was talking about religious Freedom and right to worship & you twisted it the other way around didn't you ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By your own law they are not muslim, so that point is invalid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes they are Non Muslims but they don't accept it and insist upon being called ahmadi muslim community which disguises them with Muslims and it wont be allowed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By your own law they are not muslim, so that point is invalid
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes True but the are not exactly following our constitution that is why they are what they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intolerance is natural to muslims? I don't think so. I know plenty of tolerant muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is nothing called intolerance , so just shut your saga up i am over it.
> 
> 
> 
> If any of their activities are illegal then law takes its course,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wish it would have been true
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but their crime is to hurt your sense of purity, then its your own problem and you should get treated instead of blaming others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one is stopping you from Defending them-- carry on .
Click to expand...


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## Kompromat

qsaark said:


> Jinnah was a political leader, *he also used to drink and eat pork* so what? We should also start drinking and eating pork because 'father of the nation' had also done so? He had a larger goal, to get Pakistan from the British, why on earth would he raise the issue of Qaadyaniat at that time? Stop bringing Jinnah into this because he was not a Rasool Allah or even a Muslim Scholar, he was only a Politician with a fixed political goal.
> 
> And Army/ISI is not killing 'Islamic leaders' left and right but those uneducated thugs who want to further their agenda in the name of Islam. I am very sorry to see that you can not even distinguish between an Islamic leader/Scholar and TTP thugs and only to prove a point (which of course is no point in the first place) dragging the Army action into this.



Actually dear sir it is a hoax spread by the Enemies of Pakistan and Jinnah after his death.

It has been recorded after he died so there is no accountability on it so i think it is Unfair to attach such comments to the Father of the Nation.

Those who want to attach one BS remark to demolish the Repute of the great leader & i ask them if he was a Drinker and ate pork why the hell he did raise her Daughter as Muslim and why did he Converted her wife to Islam if didn't cared about his belief so i think its another Propegenda spread by our very own Big tummy mullahs.

*PML-Q, PML-N senators' walkout on remarks against Quaid-e-Azam
April 15, 2010 *


The Senators of Pakistan Muslim League Quaid (PML-Q) and Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz (PML-N) staged token walkout from the upper House in protest against derogatory remarks passed by Haji Adeel Senator Awami National Party against Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of the country, here on Thursday.
According to details, president Muslim League Likeminded Senator Saleem Saifullah said that Senator Haji Adeel stated on a TV channel that Muslim League's leaders used to drink and eat pork and alleged that Haji Adeel was hinting at Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. He said that Haji Adeel had hurt the emotions of the nation and he should apologize, on which the leaders of PML-N and PML-Q staged token walk out from the House. 
Senator Adeel developed stance in this regard that his remarks were not aimed at Quaid-e-Azam but had only replied to one of PML-Q's Senator's remarks that our party's leader were Hindu and used to live in Jalalabad.
Senator Haji Adeel apologized and made it clear that Quaid-e-Azam was also his hero but unfortunately his remarks were taken out of context. 
Senator Zahid Khan and Babar Ghouri settle the issue and managed to woo back the angry senators back to the House. Senator Raza Rabbani and Foreign Minister Rehman Malik also managed to calm down the Senators of PML-Q.


PML-Q, PML-N senators' walkout on remarks against Quaid-e-Azam | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## qsaark

Black Blood said:


> Actually dear sir it is a hoax spread by the Enemies of Pakistan and Jinnah after his death.
> 
> It has been recorded after he died so there is no accountability on it so i think it is Unfair to attach such comments to the Father of the Nation.
> 
> Those who want to attach one BS remark to demolish the Repute of the great leader & i ask them if he was a Drinker and ate pork why the hell he did raise her Daughter as Muslim and why did he Converted her wife to Islam if didn't cared about his belief so i think its another Propegenda spread by our very own Big tummy mullahs.


No its not hoax, it is true and recorded in the memoirs of number of Jinnah's peers, both British and Indian. It is well accepted a fact that Jinnah was not at all a practicing Muslim, extremely westernized, and liberal. However, none of these qualities make him any less than what we think of him, the father of the nation. We have to come out of the habit of trying to sanitize the Muslim leaders from all their un-islamic habits, pouring all the saintly qualities in them, and granting them the rank of Rasool Allah. Jinnah was a Muslim because he was born to the Muslim parents, and he converted his wife to Islam because it was the norm of the day. He also did not raise his only daughter as a practicing Muslim otherwise she would have never chosen to marry to a non-Muslim. But again, none of this has anything to do with the stature of Jinnah, he is and shall always be remembered for his hard work, integrity, honesty, and the leadership.

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## Bang Galore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How have Ahmadi's corrupted your religion?
> 
> Did they sneak some pork into your breakfast? Did they sneak into your home and alter the Quran?
> 
> Isn't the fact that you are not an Ahmadi proof that they have in fact not corrupted your religion?
> 
> If some people agree with their message, they can accept them, if some don't, they can reject them.
> 
> *It isn't really up to you or anyone else to determine whose faith is valid and whose faith is not. Mind your own business, and let the Ahmadis live their life as they see fit. Have some respect for the beliefs of others and their rights to live without being subjected to discrimination and prejudice.*



*Hear, Hear !* This is by far the best advice that can be given to all religious bigots whatever religion they belong to. If a lot more people thought like this, the world would certainly be a better place.

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## Kompromat

Bang Galore said:


> *Hear, Hear !* This is by far the best advice that can be given to all religious bigots whatever religion they belong to. If a lot more people thought like this, the world would certainly be a better place.



As long as no one offends another Religion its applicable but not the whole time & it is a reality accept it or not.


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## qsaark

Bang Galore said:


> *Hear, Hear !* This is by far the best advice that can be given to all religious bigots whatever religion they belong to. If a lot more people thought like this, the world would certainly be a better place.


No, if lot more people start thinking like this, the world would certainly become a jungle in which people would live their lives following their psyche or the animal instinct.


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## Kompromat

^^ Thats another way of Looking at the Matter.


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## Bang Galore

qsaark said:


> No, if lot more people start thinking like this, the world would certainly become a jungle in which people would live their lives following their psyche or the animal instinct.



Thinking like what? I actually had to go back and read *AgNoStIc MuSliM's* comments again considering the flak I'm taking for agreeing with him. The first time I agree completely with something he said and it get me into trouble with you guys. 

Actually I disagree completely with your jungle remark. Thoughts like the ones Agnostic Muslim expressed are what separates us from the animals in the jungle. The ability to disagree with someone and not become disagreeable oneself is a product of civilisation. Animals care for no such niceties. What use our superior intelligence if we cannot distinguish ourselves from them?



> which, by the ijmaa *(consensus)* of all the Muslim sects is incorrect and wrong.



Without debating the merits of the matter and I do not intend to do so, I find the reliance on *"consensus"* by a man of science such as yourself more than a bit amusing. If *consensus = truth*, then we might actually still be believing that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved round the earth. Almost all major scientific discoveries would probably have never happened if everyone went by "consensus" prevailing at the time.

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## v9s

Zaki said:


> personally you can call me racist when it comes to Ahmedis.
> 
> I am in great favour of co-existince with all other religions. I don't mind if there are 5000 churches, 5000 temples and 5000 other places of worship in Pakistan but i would mind if there are 5000 Ahmedi's so-called mosques in Pakistan.
> 
> That is because Hinduism is a religion that is far far away from us. Chrisitianism is another religion that is not like us. Jewish are a different society and so are other like Zorastrinism. But when it come sto Ahmedis................. They are the ones who destroyed our own religion. They tried to corrupt our religion and i really feel sorry for them but at the same time would not allow them any kind of activities in Islamic republic of Pakistan. There is a tiny line between Muslims and Ahmedis and that line decides your whole faith. It decides whether you believe in the Last Prophet (PBUH) or you the fake prophets coming after him. I can write long article on it so i am stopping here.
> 
> Please Indians do us a favour please. Take all Ahmedis in your country and i am willing to pay you



That is a very bigoted view.

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

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## Kompromat

Bang Galore said:


> Thinking like what? I actually had to go back and read *AgNoStIc MuSliM's* comments again considering the flak I'm taking for agreeing with him. The first time I agree completely with something he said and it get me into trouble with you guys.
> 
> Actually I disagree completely with your jungle remark. Thoughts like the ones Agnostic Muslim expressed are what separates us from the animals in the jungle. The ability to disagree with someone and not become disagreeable oneself is a product of civilisation. Animals care for no such niceties. What use our superior intelligence if we cannot distinguish ourselves from them?
> 
> 
> 
> Without debating the merits of the matter and I do not intend to do so, I find the reliance on *"consensus"* by a man of science such as yourself more than a bit amusing. If *consensus = truth*, then we might actually still be believing that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved round the earth. Almost all major scientific discoveries would probably have never happened if everyone went by "consensus" prevailing at the time.





Consensus = Ijm'a & you have misunderstood the whole thing.

Ijm'a means when all Muslim Groups agree on one point of view.


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## kugga

Consensus is not always true that's why democracy is not the only solution to world's problems and neither secularism.....


Everyone has its own solutions India thinks secularism is best so they applied it there... but we don't believe in that so we want a Muslim to lead us not a non-muslim because we think non-muslims cannot understand pschology of muslims (like many on this forum).......

you can agree or disagree with a theory but you cannot prove it right or wrong....

and one more thing truth does not need to be proved


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Nahraf said:


> There are many people in all Muslim sects that declare each other kaffir but they all agree that Qadianis are not Muslims. Nobody from these sects has declared themselves as prophet and messiah as Mirza Ghulam Qadiani has done. Even the Ismailis that have deviated from mainstream Islam have never broken the cardinal rule on finality of prophethood (Khatmay-Nabuwat).



Then these sects can agree that they are not Muslims, but the State is responsible for ensuring that all people are treated equally and are free to practice their faith as they please - that includes, or should include, Ahmadi's.

If they wish to call themselves Muslims, and someone other than Mohammed a prophet, then that is between them and Allah, and not the State's business.

You can teach your children that they follow a false path, but also teach your children that they have a right to 'think and believe' what they wish and their right to follow whichever prophet they believe and call themselves what they want should be respected, even as you disagree with their beliefs.

This kind of intolerance and insecurity complex over ones own faith (what else is it if you don't even have faith in the strength of your beliefs winning in open contest against those of the Ahmadi's?) is at the root of many issues in Pakistan.

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## TruthSeeker

Black Blood said:


> something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities.. By having said that i am not denying that mistreatment with minorities does not exist but what i am worried about is that Why Minorities and mormal Pakistanis are treated differently and why normal Pakistanis do not get well deserved publicity ?



Grasshopper, Sir!

Are you not the one who has passionately raised the issue of "Islamophobia" in the West? Is not this the same motivation that causes a hew and cry among Ahmedis, Christians, Hindus, Bahai's, etc. in Pakistan? A cry to be treated with respect and equality? Are you not a minority in your land? I am surprised at your lack of sympathy in the case of this Ahmedi family. As you should realize, prejudice and intolerance of others based on race, religion, sex, etc., needs to be opposed at all times if it is ever to be diminished or, praise Allah, eradicated.

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## pak-yes

^^Minorities should be protected at all costs as long as they don't hurt the sentiments of the majority.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Zaki said:


> As i said before i am a very peace loving person and ready to live with all other religions in fact i love multi religion socities. But if you really know the foundations of Ahmedis religion i am sure its activities will not acceptable to you also. The problem is apparently they are 99% like us but their foundations clashes with the Muslims. They have similar mosques, same quran, similar point of view of God. That the non-Muslims cannot really differ between us and them.


So far you have not offered a single example of an Ahmadi activity that is detrimental to society, - such as - 'open discrimination against another community on the basis of their beliefs', 'intimidation and violence against another community because of their beliefs'. 'intolerance towards those preaching another faith' etc.

Guess which community in Pakistan people guilty of those crimes primarily belong to?


> Thats what my problem is......... there are so many "Ignorents" in Pakistan who cannot understand the difference between Qadiyanis and us and if they are not educated properly many of them will start following their fath.


1. So what if they start following the Ahmadi faith?

2. Last I checked, the Ahmadis were outnumbered significantly by 'conventional Muslim sects' in Pakistan. Are you going to argue that the state of the 'traditional Muslim sects' is so bad that they cannot compete in proselytizing, both on the basis of their ideas and on the basis of resources, with an extremely small community of Ahmadi's?


> We are Islamic republic of Pakistan that also provides equal rights to non-Muslims to live in but anything against Islam cannot be acceptable in this country.


How are they against Islam? Because you do not think they are Muslim? The what of Hindu's, Parsi's, the Kalash people etc? Islam provides for 'no compulsion in faith' and equal treatment for all. Any way you look at it Islam protects the Ahmadis - either as a Muslim sect, or as a non-Muslim minority. An Islamic State cannot openly discriminate against them, and that is unfortunately exactly what the current laws in Pakistan do.


> The activities of Ahmedis are against Islam and whoever "ignorent" listens to them get brain-washed. I have lived with Ahmedis (my neighbours in Pakistan). I know a lot of Ahmedis in London and trust me they try to damage the image of Islam wherever they get chance by preaching their corrupted religion. They are most welcome to live in Pakistan as long as they don't preach their religion


Again, one could argue that the activities of anyone who preaches a religion other than Islam are 'against Islam'. By that yardstick you would have to discriminate against every community not considered 'Islamic'. 

Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Parsi etc. proselytizers don't exactly spread their faith by saying' Islam is a wonderful religion and the best of all faiths' - of course they push their own faith, and will be critical of other faiths and their failings when talking on the subject, just as conversations with some Shia and Sunni folk can result in them attacking the other sect - the Ahmadi's are no different.


> I said before i am little racist only for this issue  and that too is for the betterment of Muslims living in Pakistan
> 
> My last post here


You are expressing prejudice against an entire community on this issue, without any cause, and prejudice is not acceptable.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

pak-yes said:


> ^^Minorities should be protected at all costs as long as they don't hurt the sentiments of the majority.


So one day the Sunni in Pakistan could argue that no Shia can call themselves Muslim because 'Sunni are the majority in Pakistan and a 'consensus' of Sunni ulema have determined the Shia are not Muslim and it 'hurts their sentiments' to see the Shia practice and preach their faith freely and call themselves Muslims.

What nonsense.

The majority should grow a thicker skin and stop acting like children in a schoolyard whose 'sentiments get offended' because some other kid said something.

Muslims who think the above need to end this infantile behavior and grow up.

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## Meesna

pak-yes said:


> ^^Minorities should be protected at all costs as long as they don't hurt the sentiments of the majority.



Is it OK to ban minarets or hijab in west or put even more restrictions on Muslims as it hurts the sentiments there? Your logic seems to be supporting such actions.

Human rights can't be violated under pretext of hurt sentiments.

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## Meesna

> Pakistan's heartland Punjab province is an extremist "bomb" ready to explode, the region's highest official has warned, with the recent targeting of minority groups seen by some as evidence of jihadists' grip on the area.
> 
> The provincial governor accused the regional government, led by former prime minister Nawaz Sharif's party, of tolerating or even supporting extremists, who are said to operate openly in Punjab free from the military operations waged against Taliban guerrillas in the area bordering Afghanistan.
> 
> "The Sharifs are creating a potential bomb here in Punjab," said Salman Taseer, the governor of Punjab, who was appointed by the national government. "These [militant] groups are armed and dangerous. There is no way you can accommodate these people. There has to be zero tolerance."



...



> *Sheikh Waqas Akram, an opposition member of parliament from Jhang, which is the headquarters of Sipah-e-Sahaba, likened the situation in Punjab to the Swat valley, where official inaction allowed the Taliban to take over in 2008. "There can be 10 Swats in Punjab, if you don't check them [extremists]," said Akram.*



...



> Over the last year the affluent Ahmedi community in Faisalabad has been rocked by a campaign of violence and intimidation, which intensified in recent weeks. Ahmedi are classified as non-Muslims under Pakistani law, for believing that Muhammad was not the final prophet.
> 
> Police arrested four suspects last month. Three days later, on 1 April, three members of an Ahmedi family were shot dead as they returned from work. Their car was sprayed with bullets, in what police believe was a "very professional" hit and possible revenge for the arrests.
> 
> *"The four people in jail are in Jamaat-ud-Dawa," said senior Faisalabad police officer Abid Hussain. "They told us that they got a decree from a maulvi (priest) in their group that says that robbing, kidnapping and killing Ahmedis is allowed and would be rewarded in heaven."*



Pakistan's Punjab region on knife-edge as extremists take hold, says governor | World news | The Guardian

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## T-Faz

The ill that has plagued Pakistan is the mindset of the such people who condone violence against minorities based upon their differences in religion. So what if someone wishes to follow a different religion, as long as they are respectable and follow the land of the law, there should not be a problem.

Ahmadies from what I gather have helped Pakistan in many ways, never causing it any harm so why go and accuse them of something that even Islam is against. If they do not believe in khatme Nabuwat then that is between God and them.

You people cry foul when western countries do something that conflicts with your view. No wonder we suffer so much, when you do wrong you suffer as a consequence.

Minorities in Pakistan love Pakistan and are ever present to make it succeed, islamists on the other hand hate minorities and caused nothing but destruction of Pakistan.

You know the first person to raise the issue of Palestine at UN assembly was an ahmadi, Sir Zafarullah khan, a great Pakistani and a great man. When has any member of jamaat e islami or any other so called religious leader done anything for the cause of fellow humans, Muslims or Pakistani. They are illeterates spreading the false meaning of a religion through their oil funded money. 

I have no clue why people can act like this, put yourself in such a place and then see how it feels, may god have mercy on your souls.

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## sparklingway

I have avoided commenting on this issue, keeping in mind the sensitivity and the kind of ignorant and irrational behavior it usually brings out of people.

Nonetheless, I have been forced to say something now.

Every self styled practicing Pakistani Muslim has claimed that somehow Ahmadis in Pakistan are involved in "anti-Pakistan" activities. Besides the fact that they are yet to bring an iota of evidence to substantiate their unfounded claims, it is all along the usual line of declaring everybody a traitor and an "agent". Nobody has a right to be different from this bigoted group.

Just provide me one, just one reference of how they are anti-Pakistan and the other stupid claims you people have made? When asked these questions Blackblood came up with the greatest of answers, that Ahmadis sitting in Canada were the real perpetrators and they had left proxies here to commit their acts. How they are pro-Zionist is beyond me? I won't go into the merits of arguing whether Israel is a threat or not (which is already corrupted with a ton loads of conspiracy theories that dominate the minds of the "educated" people as well), I am unable to comprehend why Ahamdis would be working for zionism. Are they Jews hiding as Muslims? How they support "enemies" is beyond any comprehension? Do you people mean to say that Ahmadis provide spies for India now? 

If you've been told since childhood that Ahamdis are non-Muslims and the conspiracies that received widespread acclaim in society have reached you as well do not mean that they are somehow unworthy citizens. For all it's worth, they've contributed more to the society than most of us. They claim the highest literacy rate of any religious group in Pakistan and this is not because of the ever synonymous "foreign aid to destabilize Pakistan".

Ahmadis have only created a sense of insecurity among the mainstream followers for if they fear (which many are expressing here) that Ahmadis turn people away from Islam and pollute their minds with their un-Islamic beliefs, than it says more about the weakness of mainstream Evangelist groups inside Pakistan who are unable to stop the supposed "tirade" of an extremely small minority, then this speaks volumes about their incompetence.

If there exists a _Tableeghi Jamaat_ which preaches religion door to door in each and every locality inside Pakistan and teaches every disciple a wordy, articulate and attractive speech to attract more people to its cause, then why should people from any other religions not be allowed to preach their religion? Are you people upholding that only Sunni Muslims would be allowed to preach in Pakistan now? Following this logic Shias will be prohibited soon and later there'll be Deobandi-Barelvi fights on the right to preaching as well.

What I can summarize is that everybody is scared that Ahmadis using their superpowers are able to convert ordinary people to their religion and this creates a sense of insecurity among the bigoted class. Religious evangelism is somehow only their turf which has to be guarded. If you believe in the truthfulness of your faith and its superiority, then enter a competitive field and preach your religion. Someone else's victory does not prove "foreign agenda" rather it proves your incompetence and failure.

*The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan*

*PART II : Fundamental Rights and Principles of Policy*​
Article 20 : *Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions*.

Subject to law, public order and morality:-
(a) every citizen shall have the *r**ight to profess, practise and propagate his religion*; and
(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the *right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions*.

Third grade journalists have flooded people's minds with garbage. There used to be a weekly column in Nawa i Waqt's Sunday Magazine about Qadiyanis. The idiot who wrote it for over three years never provided a source or reference for his claims but spread so much hate through his columns and condoned violence that I was surprised as to why nobody dared taking him to court. But I realized that anybody who took him to court would be label a Qadiyani and lynched in a busy bazaar and the police later will have no eye witness to a public murder. He once claimed that Ahmadis eat poo in a religious ceremony (I read that column myself) and yet he was writing for a level 1 newspaper. Talk about heresay and conspiracies.

I plead you to provide conclusive and unimagined evidence of their "anti-Pakistan" activities. If you cannot, then please go and take a lesson in tolerance and rationality.

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## T-Faz

Just recently in the war against the terrorists, an ahmadi major sacrificed his life for Pakistan, it was done in such a brave manner that many generals came to visit his grave in an ahmadi area.

An Ahmadi Major lays down his life for Pakistan Pak Tea House 

So many if them serve the country in secret, for the love of their country and for the sake of pakistani's themselves. If they wanted to destroy Pakistan, they would be using such ways that Pakistani's would be shaking in fear. Abdus Salam was an ahmadi, when India went on the offensive in 1965 with tanks, many ahmadis laid their lives to save Pakistan.

This is very shameful to see that such a treasured minority is written about this way, to save Pakistan, these extremist need to be eradicated and their roots destroyed.

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## T-Faz

I came across a story of one of the elders of ahmadi religion who before the partition was asked, why do ahmadis support Pakistan movement when they could suffer the same fate over there as the afghani prince who converted to ahmadiyyat and was stoned to death, he replied by simply saying that, we are not doing this for ourself but for all the Muslims of this country.

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## qsaark

It is really amazing that how two issues are mixed up and certain people are labeled as with 'self styled practicing Pakistani Muslim' as if its some kind of an insult.

I and many others have said it very clearly that Ahmedis have all the right to live and prosper in Pakistan however, *as their leader (I dont think Mr. Ghulam Ahmed should even be called a false messenger) has claimed himself first 'Imam Mehdi' ,and later 'Isa ibn Mariam', neither Mr. Ghulam Ahmed nor his followers are Muslim period*. They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam. They must declare themselves as non-Muslim and than they do whatever they like. 

Ahmedis/Qadianis/Lahories were decalred non-Muslim and for their own good. It is not that as non-Muslims they have no rights in Pakistan, in fact they have all the rights any Pakistani could have. If a Christian and a Hindu can become the Chief Justice of Pakistan, than a person or persons from other minorities can also achieve what ever they inspire for.

Now violence against Ahmedis or any other minority is a crime and whoever gets involved into it must be prosecuted and punished according to the Pakistani law.

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## sparklingway

qsaark said:


> It is really amazing that how two issues are mixed up and certain people are labeled as with 'self styled practicing Pakistani Muslim' as if its some kind of an insult.


It was supposed to be a reminder of how they claim tolerance in religion yet do not believe in it in any way.



> They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam. They must declare themselves as non-Muslim and than they do whatever they like.



Hasn't the state already done that? Doesn't the magistrate order the police nearly every month to go their places of worship and remove religious scripture (kalmas and verses)? What more do you want? A card reading "I'm a Qadiyani" hanging around their necks?

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## qsaark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So one day the Sunni in Pakistan could argue that no Shia can call themselves Muslim because 'Sunni are the majority in Pakistan and a 'consensus' of Sunni ulema have determined the Shia are not Muslim and it 'hurts their sentiments' to see the Shia practice and preach their faith freely and call themselves Muslims.
> 
> What nonsense.
> 
> The majority should grow a thicker skin and stop acting like children in a schoolyard whose 'sentiments get offended' because some other kid said something.
> 
> Muslims who think the above need to end this infantile behavior and grow up.


Comparing an Ahmedi who believes that Mr. Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani was Imam Mehdi and Prophet Isa ibn e Mariam with Shia and Sunni who believe that Mehdi and Isa will be two different persons and will come in the time of Dajjal as mentioned by the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) in itself is a nonsense.

This is not the matter of majority or minority, its a simple matter of belief that is simply not in accordance with what the Prophet Muhammed has said about Mehdi and Isa. The Ijmaa was not something that the Ulema based on some kind if 'invention', it was based on the Quran and Hadith.


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## qsaark

sparklingway said:


> It was supposed to be a reminder of how they claim tolerance in religion yet do not believe in it in any way.


Why needed? Who supported violence against Ahmedis?



> Hasn't the state already done that? Doesn't the magistrate order the police nearly every month to go their places of worship and remove religious scripture (kalmas and verses)? What more do you want? A card reading "I'm a Qadiyani" hanging around their necks?


Who is asking for? the debate is not on whether they should hang something around their necks or not, the debate is, *they must not use the name if Islam for preaching their cult which they certainly do* and I mentioned my personal experience in this regard.


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## Meesna

qsaark said:


> They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam.



There is a thing called civil liberties. Look it up while you are in the US. If you dictate people what they should believe or call themselves then you take away their religious freedom and you can't do that.

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## qsaark

Meesna said:


> There is a thing called civil liberties. Look it up while you are in the US. If you dictate people what they should believe or call themselves then you take away their religious freedom.


Religious freedom is not that being a Muslim while following Islamic teachings I start calling myself a Christian only because it will help me achieving my goals; This is called dishonesty and fraud in a civil society and prosecutable by law. And as far as myself living in USA is concerned, ever heard about Mormons? First read, than talk.

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## Meesna

qsaark said:


> Religious freedom is not that being a Muslim I start calling myself a Christian only because it will help me achieving my goals. Ever heard about Mormons? First read, than talk.



Why would a Muslim call himself Christian? However if you wish to call yourself Christian who is complaining?

What about Mormons? So some don't consider them real Christians&#8230; are they being persecuted for that in US? Protestants and Catholics have butchered each other for centuries for the same reason, who is going to decide who is a real Christian? Same with Muslims; Shias and Sunnis have killed each other for centuries.



> because it will help me achieving my goals



What goals? Conspiracy theory again?

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## qsaark

Meesna said:


> Why would a Muslim call himself Christian? However if you wish to call yourself Christian who is complaining?


Because Qadyanis and Muslims are two distinct religion (later only a cult though) and if a Qadiani proclaims himself a Muslim, he is committing fraud.



> What about Mormons? So some don't consider them real Christians are they being persecuted for that in US?


So I was right, you know nothing about the history of Mormons in the USA and you are debating here.



> Protestants and Catholics have butchered each other for centuries for the same reason, who is going to decide who is a real Christian? Same with Muslims; Shias and Sunnis have killed each other for centuries.


But both Shia and Sunni are united on Mehdi and Isa and believe in what Muhammed told the Muslims.



> What goals? Conspiracy theory again?


Of making other Muslims fool and converting them to Qadyanis in the guise of Islam.

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## T-Faz

qsaark said:


> Because Qadyanis and Muslims are two distinct religion (later only a cult though) and if a Qadiani proclaims himself a Muslim, he is committing fraud.
> 
> So I was right, you know nothing about the history of Mormons in the USA and you are debating here.
> 
> But both Shia and Sunni are united on Mehdi and Isa and believe in what Muhammed told the Muslims.
> 
> Of making other Muslims fool and converting them to Qadyanis in the guise of Islam.





Relax man, chill, enough with the conspiracies. So you are saying Muslims are such fools that they are easily converted to Ahmadiyat. I know most muslim are weak in their faith so what is the problem. At least this way they pray and learn something about religion. Or are you going to say now that Ahmadies worship the Dajjal.

See you just proved one thing, a weak muslim (too many in the world) is so unaware of his religion and belief that anyone can sway him to their side. First make muslims strong enough to sustain themselves without converting, no wonder so many muslims are converting in the first place. They hear what mullahs like you have to say and they are run out.

Yon continuously come back to accusations of Ahmadi converting muslims in the guise of Islam. Could you provide me with some sort of proof that ahmadies do this, please do not provide source from a wahabi funded site or some dumbfounded article.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

qsaark said:


> They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam. They must declare themselves as non-Muslim and than they do whatever they like.


What is the problem if they preach their religion in the name of Mickey Mouse and claim him a prophet? By restricting what they call their beliefs/faith we are discriminating and restricting their freedom to practice their faith as they see fit.

You brought up the point about Mormons - the other Chrisitian sects are within their rights to declare Mormons a 'non-Christian cult', but the US government has no business legislating what Mormons can and cannot do and what they can and cannot call themselves - that is the point being made here. The State should not get into the business of theology and legislating on the basis of theology, especially when it comes to restricting the rights of certain communities.



> Ahmedis/Qadianis/Lahories were decalred non-Muslim and for their own good. It is not that as non-Muslims they have no rights in Pakistan, in fact they have all the rights any Pakistani could have. If a Christian and a Hindu can become the Chief Justice of Pakistan, than a person or persons from other minorities can also achieve what ever they inspire for.


How is restricting Ahmadi's from calling themselves what they wish and proselytizing in the name of whatever they wish 'for their own good'? If you are going to argue that it is for their own good in that it prevents the majority community from violently targeting them and persecuting them, then that is an invalid justification and a poor reflection on the mentality of the majority. 


> Now violence against Ahmedis or any other minority is a crime and whoever gets involved into it must be prosecuted and punished according to the Pakistani law.


Absolutely, but by legislating against their right to call themselves what they wish we are openly doing them another injustice.

If you think about the issue dispassionately, you will realize that there is no harm done to either society or Islam with allowing the Ahmadis to call themselves Muslim.

I don't buy the argument that somehow the fact that Ahmadi's call themselves Muslim allows them to use 'deceitful means' to convert other people to their faith thinking they are converting to another sect of Islam. For those who follow mainstream Islam, the basic tenet of 'the finality of prophet-hood' with Mohammed (PBUH) should be obvious, and the Ahmadi belief in a prophet after Mohammed a clear indication that the 'proselytizer' is not preaching in favor of any of the 'traditional sects' of Islam.

If those being proselytized to do not even understand such a basic tenet of mainstream Islam as the 'finality of prophet-hood with Mohammed', then perhaps you shouldn't really worry too much about these particular 'Muslims', and focus more on spreading the proper message of Islam as you see it, rather than denying others the right to proselytize their beliefs.

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## qsaark

T-Faz said:


> Relax man, chill, enough with the conspiracies. So you are saying Muslims are such fools that they are easily converted to Ahmadiyat. I know most muslim are weak in their faith so what is the problem. At least this way they pray and learn something about religion.


When someone starts using smilies in his reply,its is a clear indication that he is left with no logical arguments and better be left alone with all his ignorance. Indeed there are foolish Muslims who even get converted to Christianity or other religions let alone Ahmediya. But more foolish are those Muslims who do not realize it their religious duty to help those 'weak' Muslims not to convert from Islam to other religion. There was a reason why the Tablighi Jamaat was established by noted scholars such as Moulana Muhammed Ilyas in Mewat, almost eighty decades ago but I am talking to whom?



> Or are you going to say now that Ahmadies worship the Dajjal.


Do not put your words in my mouth.



> See you just proved one thing, a weak muslim (too many in the world) is so unaware of his religion and belief that anyone can sway him to their side. First make muslims strong enough to sustain themselves without converting, no wonder so many muslims are converting in the first place. They hear what mullahs like you have to say and they are run out.


I am not a Mullah, but Alhamdulillah more aware about my religion and the duties bestowed upon me by my Allah and his Prophet, something you need to think about rather than slinging mud and insulting people.



> Yon continuously come back to accusations of Ahmadi converting muslims in the guise of Islam. Could you provide me with some sort of proof that ahmadies do this, please do not provide source from a wahabi funded site or some dumbfounded article.


I do not have to provide you with any source, because this has happened to me personally and I know that Ahmedis try to sell their cult under the guise of Islam.

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## Awesome

Meesna said:


> Actually no. Pakistan is different from most other states in the world; its officially, constitutionally, legally an apartheid state, It does not like its Ahmadis;
> 
> 
> 
> In that Pakistan is no different from Israel in how it treats Palestinians or how South Africa treated its Blacks in apartheid years.


Hopefully we can change this soon in our Pakistan.

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## qsaark

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What is the problem if they preach their religion in the name of Mickey Mouse and claim him a prophet? By restricting what they call their beliefs/faith we are discriminating and restricting their freedom to practice their faith as they see fit.


The problem is they are confusing Muslims and that is not acceptable.



> You brought up the point about Mormons - the other Chrisitian sects are within their rights to declare Mormons a 'non-Christian cult', but the US government has no business legislating what Mormons can and cannot do and what they can and cannot call themselves - that is the point being made here. The State should not get into the business of theology and legislating on the basis of theology, especially when it comes to restricting the rights of certain communities.


Better was expected from you; are you not aware that *Mormons are not allowed to engage in polygam*y in the United States?



> How is restricting Ahmadi's from calling themselves what they wish and proselytizing in the name of whatever they wish 'for their own good'? If you are going to argue that it is for their own good in that it prevents the majority community from violently targeting them and persecuting them, then that is an invalid justification and a poor reflection on the mentality of the majority.


Would you allow my if I call myself son of your father and later claim myself a heir of your father?



> If you think about the issue dispassionately, you will realize that there is no harm done to either society or Islam with allowing the Ahmadis to call themselves Muslim.


That is how you think, I do not. The harm was indeed done and that is why there was a movement against this cult.



> I don't buy the argument that somehow the fact that Ahmadi's call themselves Muslim allows them to use 'deceitful means' to convert other people to their faith thinking they are converting to another sect of Islam.


Islam does not depend on whether you buy something or not, it depends on what is written in Quran and Hadith. Rasool Allah has mentioned clearly, "_Those who invented new things in our religion are not among us_".



> If those being proselytized to do not even understand such a basic tenet of mainstream Islam as the 'finality of prophet-hood with Mohammed', then perhaps you shouldn't really worry too much about these particular 'Muslims', and focus more on spreading the proper message of Islam as you see it, rather than denying others the right to proselytize their beliefs.


No one is denying nobodoy's right to proselytize their beliefs so long they declare themselves non-Muslim, its a simple matter of belief. Hazrat Abu Bakar had sent troops to curb those tribes that had refused to pay 'zakat' because those tribes were 'inventing' a new thing in Islam and causing confusion among the rest of the Muslims. Hazrat Ali had ordered to burn alive a group of so-called Muslims who considered Ali the God. 

You (Agno) maybe a Super-Moderator of this forum but not better or more informed about Islam than Hazrat Abu Bakar and Ameer ul Mo'mineen Ali hence I will follow them not you.

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## T-Faz

qsaark said:


> When someone starts using smilies in his reply,its is a clear indication that he is left with no logical arguments and better be left alone with all his ignorance. Indeed there are foolish Muslims who even get converted to Christianity or other religions let alone Ahmediya. But more foolish are those Muslims who do not realize it their religious duty to help those 'weak' Muslims not to convert from Islam to other religion. There was a reason why the Tablighi Jamaat was established by noted scholars such as Moulana Muhammed Ilyas in Mewat, almost eighty decades ago but I am talking to whom?
> 
> Do not put your words in my mouth.
> 
> I am not a Mullah, but Alhamdulillah more aware about my religion and the duties bestowed upon me by my Allah and his Prophet, something you need to think about rather than slinging mud and insulting people.
> 
> I do not have to provide you with any source, because this has happened to me personally and I know that Ahmedis try to sell their cult under the guise of Islam.



When a man considers his experience as a source for his prejudice and forms opinion from it, he can only be considered benighted.

And boy do not question me about my religion and how much I know of it or do not. No one in Islam can judge another on what they do and believe, may I remind you of this: 

_And Allah will judge with (Justice and) Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not (be in a position) to judge at all. Verily it is Allah (alone) Who hears and sees (all things)._
*Surah Gafir 40 Verse 20*

You are judging Ahmadies through hearsay and hatred instilled in you. And you refer to me as someone who is not known, I might not be known for preaching hatred or persecution for others but I am working hard on an achievement that will make Pakistan proud, albeit only in limited circles. When that happens, I will personally let you know.

And tell me this, why has Pakistan suffered so much since it was 'islamized' by Zia ul Haq. We have suffered great tragedies and extreme problems, much of whom did not exist before such a satanic onslaught by the so called Islamic leaders. Why were things better before, the answer lies in Allah's punishment for us straying far away from the right path and enforcing rules that are against the core of our religion.

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## qsaark

T-Faz said:


> When a man considers his experience as a source for his prejudice and forms opinion from it, he can only be considered benighted.
> 
> And boy do not question me about my religion and how much I know of it or do not. No one in Islam can judge another on what they do and believe, may I remind you of this:
> 
> _And Allah will judge with (Justice and) Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not (be in a position) to judge at all. Verily it is Allah (alone) Who hears and sees (all things)._
> *Surah Gafir 40 Verse 20*
> 
> You are judging Ahmadies through hearsay and hatred instilled in you. And you refer to me as someone who is not known, I might not be known for preaching hatred or persecution for others but very soon I will be known for an achievement that will make Pakistan proud, albeit only in the educated circles. When that happens, I will personally let you know.


There is no need to question about your religion, as it is evident from number of your posts that you are clueless about Islam. You are an ignorant and that is all you are. Stop quoting isolated verses of Quran to support your twisted views; That aya is about the judgment day not about how a Muslim society should act because Allah is not going to come in the earth to resolve those matters. Ever heard of Fiqah?



> And tell me this, why has Pakistan suffered so much since it was 'islamized' by Zia ul Haq. We have suffered great tragedies and extreme problems, much of whom did not exist before such a satanic onslaught by the so called Islamic leaders. Why were things better before, the answer lies in Allah's punishment for us straying far away from the right path and enforcing rules that are against the core of our religion.


Yet another example of your ignorance..... Ahmedis were declared non-Muslim in the time of liberal Bhutto not religious Zia.

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## Awesome

qsaark said:


> The problem is they are confusing Muslims and that is not acceptable.


Incompetency of Muslims to be Muslims is not the fault of Ahmedis.



> Better was expected from you; are you not aware that *Mormons are not allowed to engage in polygam*y in the United States?


Nor is anyone else. Secular law, not theocratic.



> Would you allow my if I call myself son of your father and later claim myself a heir of your father?


It is not my right to disallow what you say, but I can disagree with you. You can call yourself Godzilla and it doesn't make it true.



> That is how you think, I do not. The harm was indeed done and that is why there was a movement against this cult.


You said they are confusing Muslims and taking away them as recruits. Then you're pretty much saying that your religion is inferior to theirs and they have the better sales pitch. If you're a mainstream Muslim then you should not have this fear of harm from Ahmedis. It should not be the states responsibility that who wins more recruits in a religion. As Muslims we are taught that Islam's message is good enough to fail all other messages. I'm confident in Islam, the real mainstream Islam (as per my beliefs) as the best religion thats why I'm a Muslim. If somebody else is not, their loss in the afterlife. I won't chase after them with a gun.



> Islam does not depend on whether you buy something or not, it depends on what is written in Quran and Hadith. Rasool Allah has mentioned clearly, "_Those who invented new things in our religion are not among us_".


I disagree that such fear and incompetency is propagated in the Quran, but I'm saying Pakistan government should not depend on what is written in religious books. It should bring laws that are same on all Pakistanis. We don't want to become tyrants like the people of India we left behind.



> No one is denying nobodoy's right to proselytize their beliefs so long they declare themselves non-Muslim, its a simple matter of belief. Hazrat Abu Bakar had sent troops to curb those tribes that had refused to pay 'zakat' because those tribes were 'inventing' a new thing in Islam and causing confusion among the rest of the Muslims. Hazrat Ali had ordered to burn alive a group of so-called Muslims who considered Ali the God.


Your demand is wrong. Basically we believe that the Prophet is the last messenger of Allah, they believe in one extra guy. They are saying we are wrong and they are right. They should be allowed to say that. That is the confidence we Muslims should have in us, what is that word we often slam against each other but rarely employ? What is it? Iman?



> You (Agno) maybe a Super-Moderator of this forum but not better or more informed about Islam than Hazrat Abu Bakar and Ameer ul Mo'mineen Ali hence I will follow them not you.


You can follow them in isolation you can believe what they want to believe. As long as you don't physically harm anyone or force your views upon anyone, you can even preach and make sure nobody follows the Ahmedis but it should be by choice not by threats of going to jail. We want Pakistanis to follow one fair law and uphold Quaid's message.

*You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. That has nothing to do with the business of the State*

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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> We don't want to become tyrants like the *people of India* we left behind.



What's the difference between you & the person you are arguing with?

He has a irrational attitude towards the Ahmedis and you have one towards Indians.

What exactly was your point in making the above statement when the discussion had nothing remotely concerned with Indians?

Kind of undercut your attempt at taking the high moral ground, don't you think?

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## notsuperstitious

Bang Galore said:


> What's the difference between you & the person you are arguing with?
> 
> He has a irrational attitude towards the Ahmedis and you have one towards Indians.
> 
> What exactly was your point in making the above statement when the discussion had nothing remotely concerned with Indians?
> 
> Kind of undercut your attempt at taking the high moral ground, don't you think?



 Funny isn't it, the tyrants who were 'ruled' for a thousand years 

Simply can't win this one mate, the ideology is the source of the ideology.

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## T-Faz

qsaark said:


> There is no need to question about your religion, as it is evident from number of your posts that you are clueless about Islam. You are an ignorant and that is all you are. Stop quoting isolated verses of Quran to support your twisted views; That aya is about the judgment day not about how a Muslim society should act because Allah is not going to come in the earth to resolve those matters. Ever heard of Fiqah?
> 
> Yet another example of your ignorance..... Ahmedis were declared non-Muslim in the time of liberal Bhutto not religious Zia.



I do not know you and would not question you on your faith or your knowledge of religion. Similarly learn to free yourself of the shackles that bound you and have obviously clouded your mind. You are taking my comments out of context and so have narrowed your thinking to an unsuitable point of view. 

You would not change my view and I would not change yours, let god be the judge and let live.

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## qsaark

T-Faz said:


> ... let *god* be the judge and let live.


I will not be judged by your *god*, I will be judged by the *God*, Allah the Almighty, hence I have to make sure that I prepare myself for that; You on the other hand are free to believe or not to believe as it suits you or pleases you. Now do not argue that it was only a typo, because those who care about these things are always extra careful and obviously you are not the one who cares.

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## qsaark



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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> What's the difference between you & the person you are arguing with?
> 
> He has a irrational attitude towards the Ahmedis and you have one towards Indians.
> 
> What exactly was your point in making the above statement when the discussion had nothing remotely concerned with Indians?
> 
> Kind of undercut your attempt at taking the high moral ground, don't you think?


Please don't derail the thread and don't call anyone irrational, we're here to debate a topic not debate qsaark. 

My only comment on your nitpicking with my examples is that from the Pakistani point of view the Freedom struggle was inspired by the notion that the Indians would subjugate the Muslims. You're welcome to disagree, just not debate it in this thread.

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## qsaark

*Qadianis and Orthodox Muslims*

by

Dr. Allama Iqbal

The issue created by the controversy between the Qadianis and the orthodox Muslims is extremely important. The Muslims have only recently begun to realise its importance. I intended to address an open letter to the British people explaining the social and political implications of the issue. But unfortunately my health prevented me from doing so. I am, however, glad to say a few words for the present on the matter, which, to my mind, affects the entire collective life of the Indian Muslims. It must, however, be pointed out at the outset that I have no intention to enter into any theological argument. Nor do I mean to undertake a psychological analysis of the mind of the founder of the Qadiani movement; the former will not interest those for whom this statement is meant and the time for the latter has not yet arrived in India. My point of view is that of a student of general history and comparative religion. 

India is a land of many religious communities, and Islam is a religious community in a much deeper sense than those communities whose structure is determined partly by the religious and partly by the race idea. Islam repudiates the race idea altogether and founds itself on the religious idea alone, a basis which is wholly spiritual and consequently for more ethereal than blood relationship, Muslim society is naturally much more sensitive to forces which it considers harmful to its integrity. *Any religious society historically arising from the bosom of Islam, which claims a new prophethood for its basis, and declares all Muslims who do not recognise the truth of its alleged revelation as Kafirs, must, therefore, be regarded by every Muslims as a serious danger to the solidarity of Islam*. This must necessarily be so; since the integrity of Muslim society is secured by the Idea of the Finality of Prophethood alone. 

This idea of Finality is perhaps the most original idea in the cultural history of mankind: its true significance can be understood only by those who carefully study the history of pre-Islamic Magian culture in Western and Middle Asia. The concept of Magian culture, according to modern research, includes cultures associated with Zoroastruanism, Judaism, Jewish Christianity, Chaldean and Sabean religion. To these creed-communities the idea of the continuity of prophethood was essential, and consequently they lived in a state of constant expectation. It is probable that the Magian man psychologically enjoyed this state of expectation. The modern man is spiritually far more emancipated than the Magian man. The result of the Magian attitude was the disintegration of old communities and the constant formation of new ones by all sorts of religious adventurers. In the modern world of Islam, ambitious and ignorant Mullaism, taking advantage of the modern Press, has shamelessly attempted to hurl the old pre-Islamic Magian outlook in the face of the twentieth century. It is obvious that Islam which claims to weld all the various communities of the world into one single community cannot reconcile itself to a movement which threatens its present solidarity and holds the promise of further rifts in human society. 

Of the of the two forms which the modern revival of Pre-Islamic Magianism has assumed, Bahaism appears to me to be far more honest than Qadianism; for the former openly departs from Islam, whereas the latter apparently retains some of the more important externals of Islam with an inwardness wholly inimical of the spirit and aspirations of Islam. Its idea of a jealous God with an inexhaustible store of earthquakes and plagues for its opponents; its conception of the prophet as a soothsayer; its idea of the continuity of the spirit of messiah, are so absolutely Jewish that the movement can easily be regarded as a return to early Judaism. Professor Buber who has given an account of the movement initiated by the Polish Messiah Baalshem tells us that "it was thought that the spirit of the Messiah descended upon the earth through the prophets and even though a long line of holy men stretching into the present time - the Zaddiks" (Sadiq). Heretical movements in Muslim Iran under the pressure of Pre-Islamic Magian ideas invented the words buruz, hulul, zill, to cover this idea of a perpetual reincarnation. It was necessary to invent new expressions for a Magian idea in order to make it less shocking to Muslim conscience. Even the phrase "Promised Messiah" is not a product of Muslim religious consciousness. It is a bastard expression and has its origin in the Pre-Islamic Magian outlook. 

We do not find it in early Islamic religious and historical literature. This remarkable fact is revealed by Professor Wensinck's Concordance of the Traditions of the Holy Prophet, which covers no less than eleven collections of the traditions and three of the earliest historical documents of Islam. One can very well understand the reasons why early Muslims never used this expression. The expression did not appeal to them probably because they thought that it implied a false conception of the historical process. The Magian mind regarded time as a circular movement, the glory of elucidation, the true nature of the historical process as a perpetually creative movement was reserved for the great Muslim thinker and historian, Ibn Khaldun. 

The intensity of feeling which the Indian Muslims have manifested in opposition to the Quadiani movement is, therefore, perfectly intelligible to the student of modern sociology. The average Muslim who was the other day describes as "Mulla-ridden" by a writer in The Civil and Military Gazette is inspired in his opposition to the movement more by his instinct of self-preservation than by a fuller grasp called "enlightened"' Muslin has seldom made an attempt to understand the real cultural significance of the idea of Finality in Islam, and a process of slow and imperceptible westernisation has further deprived him even of the instinct of self-preservation. Some so-called enlightened Muslims have gone to the extent of preaching "tolerance' to their brethren-in-faith. I can easily excuse Sir Herbert Emerson for preaching toleration to Muslims; for a modern European who is born and brought up in an entirely different culture does not, and perhaps cannot, develop the insight which makes it possible for one to understand an issue vital to the very structure of a community with an entirely different cultural outlook. 

In India circumstances are much more peculiar. This country of religious communities, where the future of each community rests entirely upon its solidarity, is ruled by a Western people who cannot but adopt a policy of non-interference in religion. This liberal and indispensable policy in a country like India has led to most unfortunate results. In so far as Islam is concerned, it is no exaggeration to say that the solidarity of the Muslim community in India under the British is far less safe than the solidarity of the Jewish community was in the days of Jesus under the Romans. Any religious adventurer in India can set up any claim and carve out a new community for his own exploration. This liberal State of ours does not care a fig for integrity of a parent community, provided the adventurer assures it of his loyalty and his followers are regular in the payment of taxes due to the State. The meaning of this policy for Islam was quite accurately seen by our great poet Akbar who in his usual humorous strain says:

_O friend! pray for the glory of the Briton's name:
Say, "I am God" sans chain, sans cross, sans shame._

I very much appreciate the orthodox Hindus' demand for protection against religious reformers in the new constitution. Indeed, the demand ought to have been first made by the Muslims who. unlike Hindus, entirely eliminate the race idea from their social structure. The Government must seriously consider the present situation and try, if possible, to understand the mentality of the absolutely vital to the integrity of his community. After all, if the integrity of a community is threatened, the only course open to that community is to defend itself against the forces of disintegration. 

And what are the ways of self-defense? 

Controversial writings and refutation of the claims of the man who is regarded by the parent community as a religious adventurer. Is it then fair to preach toleration to the parent community whose integrity is threatened and to allow the rebellious group to carry on its propaganda with impunity, even when the propaganda is highly abusive? 

If a group, rebellious from the point of view of the parent community, happens to be of some special service to Government, the latter are at liberty to reward their services as best as they can. Other communities will not grudge it. But the forces which tend seriously to affect its collective life. collective life is as sensitive to the danger of dissolution as individual life. It is hardly necessary to add in this connection that the mutual theological bickerings of Muslim sects do not affect vital principles on which all these sects agree with all their differences in spite of their mutual accusation of heresy. 

There is one further point which demands Government's special consideration. The encouragement in India of religious adventurers, on the ground of modern liberalism, tends to make people more and more indifferent to religion and will eventually completely eliminate the important factor of religion from the life of Indian communities. The Indian mind is likely to be nothing less than the form of atheistic materialism which has appeared in Russia. 

But the religious issue is not the only issue which is at present agitating the minds of the Punjab Muslims. There are other quarrels of a political nature which, according to my reading, Sir Herbert Emerson hinted in his speech at the Anjuman's anniversary. These are, no doubt, of a purely political nature, but they affect the unity of Punjab Muslims as seriously as the religious issue. While thanking the Government for their anxiety to see the Punjab Muslims united, I venture to suggest a little self-examination to the Government themselves. Who is responsible, I ask, for the distinction of rural and urban Muslims - a distinction which has cut up the Muslim community into two groups and the rural group into several sub-groups constantly at war with one another? 

Sir Herbert Emerson deplores the lack of proper leadership among the Punjab Muslims. But I wish Sir Herbert Emerson realised that the rural-urban distinction created by the Government and maintained by them through ambitious political adventurers, whose eyes are fixed on their own personal interests and not on the unity of Islam in the Punjab, had already made the community incapable of producing a real leader. It appears to me that this device probably originated in a desire rather to make it impossible for real leadership to grow. Sir Herbert Emerson deplores the lack of leadership in Muslims; I deplore the continuation by the Government of a system which has crushed out all hope of a real leader appearing in the province. 

Postscript. I understands that this statement has caused some misunderstanding in some quarters. It is thought that I have made a subtle suggestion to the Government to suppress the Qadiani movement by force. Nothing of the kind. I have made it clear that the policy of non-interference in religion is the only policy which can be adopted by the rulers of India. No other is possible policy is possible. I confess, however, that to my mind this policy is harmful to the interests of religious communities; but there is no escape from it and those who suffer will have to safeguard their interests by suitable means. *The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community*. This will be perfectly consistent with the policy of the Qadianis themselves, and the Indian Muslim will tolerate them just as he tolerates other religions. 

The cultural value of the idea of finality in Islam I have fully explained elsewhere, its meaning is simple: No spiritual surrender to any human being after Muhammad (pbuh) who emancipated his followers by giving them a law which is realisable as arising from the very core of human conscience. Theologically, the doctrine is that: the socio-political organisation called "Islam" is perfect and eternal. No revelation the denial of which entails heresy is possible after Muhammad (pbuh). *He who claims such a revelation is a traitor to Islam*. *Since the Qadianis believe the founder of the Ahmadiyyah movement to be the bearer of such a revelation, they declare that the entire world of Islam is Infidel*. The founder's own argument, quite worthy of a medieval theologian, is that the spirituality of the Holy Prophet of Islam must be regarded as imperfect if it is not creative of another prophet. He claims his own prophethood to be an evidence of the prophet-rearing power of the spirituality of the Holy Prophet of Islam. But if you further ask him whether the spirituality of Muhammad (pbuh) is capable of rearing more prophets than one, his answer is "No". This virtually amounts to saying: "Muhammad (pbuh) is not the last Prophet: I am the last." Far from understanding the cultural value of the Islamic idea of finality in the history of mankind generally and of Asia especially, he thinks that finality in the sense that no follower of Muhammad (pbuh) can ever reach the status of prophethood is a mark of imperfection in Muhammad's (pbuh)prophethood. As I read the psychology of his mind he, in the interest of his own claim to prophethood avails himself of what he describes as the creative spirituality of the Holy Prophet of Islam and, at the same time, deprives the Holy Prophet of his "finality" by limiting the creative capacity of his spirituality of the rearing of only one prophet, i.e. the founder of the Ahmadiyyah movement. In this way does the new prophet quietly steal away the "finality" of one whom he claims to be his spiritual progenitor. He claims to be a _buruz_ of the Holy Prophet of Islam insinuating thereby that, being a _buruz_ of him, his "finality" is virtually the "finality" of Muhammad (pbuh); and that this view of the matter, therefore, does not violate the "finality" of the Holy Prophet. In identifying the two finalities, his own and that of the Holy Prophet, he conveniently loses sight of the temporal meaning of the idea of Finality. It is, however, obvious that the word _buruz_, in the sense even complete likeness, cannot help him at all; for the _buruz_ must always remain the other side of its original. Only in the sense of reincarnation a _buruz_ becomes identical with original. Thus if we take the word _buruz_ to mean "like in spiritual qualities" the argument remains ineffective; if, on the other hand, we take it to mean reincarnation of the original in the Aryan sense of the word, the argument becomes plausible; but its author turns out to be only a magian in disguise. It is further claimed on the authority of the great Muslim mystic, Muhyuddin ibn Arabi of Spain, that it is possible for a Muslim saint to attain, in his spiritual evolution, to the kind of experience characteristic of the prophetic consciousness. I personally believe this view of Shaikh Muhyuddin ibn Arabi to be psychologically unsound: but assuming it to be correct the Qadiani argument is based on a complete misunderstanding of his exact position. The Shaikh regards it as a purely private achievement which does not, and in the nature of things cannot, entitle such a saint to declare that all those who do not believe in him are outside the pale of Islam. Indeed, from the Shaikh's point of view, there may be more than one saint, living in the same age or country, who may attain to prophet consciousness. The point to be seized is that, while it is psychologically possible for a saint to attain to prophetic experience, his experience will have no socio-political significance making him the centre of a new organisation and entitling him to declare this organisation to be the criterion of the faith or disbelief of the followers of Muhammad (pbuh). Leaving his mystical psychology aside I am convinced from a careful study of the relevant passages of the "Futuhat" that the great Spanish mystic is as a firm a believer in the Finality of Muhammad (pbuh) as any orthodox Muslim. And if he had seen in his mystical vision that one day in the East some Indian amateurs in Sufism would seek to destroy the Holy Prophet's Finality under cover of his mystical psychology, he would have certainly anticipated the Indian Ulama in warning the Muslims of the world against such traitors to Islam.

*Note:*

Indian Muslims and Partition of India by SM Ikram is also a MUST READ on this important issue.

The passage in Red is food for thought for some of the liberal Muslim members of this forum who are vehemently saying the similar what is mentioned in the passage by Iqbal.

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## T-Faz

qsaark said:


> I will not be judged by your *god*, I will be judged by the *God*, Allah the Almighty, hence I have to make sure that I prepare myself for that; You on the other hand are free to believe or not to believe as it suits you or pleases you. Now do not argue that it was only a typo, because those who care about these things are always extra careful and obviously you are not the one who cares.



Yes *Allah the Almighty* will judge me and Inshallah the tyrants will rot in hell.

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## Awesome

qsaark said:


> *Qadianis and Orthodox Muslims*
> 
> by
> 
> Dr. Allama Iqbal
> 
> The issue created by the controversy between the Qadianis and the orthodox Muslims is extremely important. The Muslims have only recently begun to realise its importance. I intended to address an open letter to the British people explaining the social and political implications of the issue. But unfortunately my health prevented me from doing so. I am, however, glad to say a few words for the present on the matter, which, to my mind, affects the entire collective life of the Indian Muslims. It must, however, be pointed out at the outset that I have no intention to enter into any theological argument. Nor do I mean to undertake a psychological analysis of the mind of the founder of the Qadiani movement; the former will not interest those for whom this statement is meant and the time for the latter has not yet arrived in India. My point of view is that of a student of general history and comparative religion.
> 
> India is a land of many religious communities, and Islam is a religious community in a much deeper sense than those communities whose structure is determined partly by the religious and partly by the race idea. Islam repudiates the race idea altogether and founds itself on the religious idea alone, a basis which is wholly spiritual and consequently for more ethereal than blood relationship, Muslim society is naturally much more sensitive to forces which it considers harmful to its integrity. *Any religious society historically arising from the bosom of Islam, which claims a new prophethood for its basis, and declares all Muslims who do not recognise the truth of its alleged revelation as Kafirs, must, therefore, be regarded by every Muslims as a serious danger to the solidarity of Islam*. This must necessarily be so; since the integrity of Muslim society is secured by the Idea of the Finality of Prophethood alone.
> 
> This idea of Finality is perhaps the most original idea in the cultural history of mankind: its true significance can be understood only by those who carefully study the history of pre-Islamic Magian culture in Western and Middle Asia. The concept of Magian culture, according to modern research, includes cultures associated with Zoroastruanism, Judaism, Jewish Christianity, Chaldean and Sabean religion. To these creed-communities the idea of the continuity of prophethood was essential, and consequently they lived in a state of constant expectation. It is probable that the Magian man psychologically enjoyed this state of expectation. The modern man is spiritually far more emancipated than the Magian man. The result of the Magian attitude was the disintegration of old communities and the constant formation of new ones by all sorts of religious adventurers. In the modern world of Islam, ambitious and ignorant Mullaism, taking advantage of the modern Press, has shamelessly attempted to hurl the old pre-Islamic Magian outlook in the face of the twentieth century. It is obvious that Islam which claims to weld all the various communities of the world into one single community cannot reconcile itself to a movement which threatens its present solidarity and holds the promise of further rifts in human society.
> 
> Of the of the two forms which the modern revival of Pre-Islamic Magianism has assumed, Bahaism appears to me to be far more honest than Qadianism; for the former openly departs from Islam, whereas the latter apparently retains some of the more important externals of Islam with an inwardness wholly inimical of the spirit and aspirations of Islam. Its idea of a jealous God with an inexhaustible store of earthquakes and plagues for its opponents; its conception of the prophet as a soothsayer; its idea of the continuity of the spirit of messiah, are so absolutely Jewish that the movement can easily be regarded as a return to early Judaism. Professor Buber who has given an account of the movement initiated by the Polish Messiah Baalshem tells us that "it was thought that the spirit of the Messiah descended upon the earth through the prophets and even though a long line of holy men stretching into the present time - the Zaddiks" (Sadiq). Heretical movements in Muslim Iran under the pressure of Pre-Islamic Magian ideas invented the words buruz, hulul, zill, to cover this idea of a perpetual reincarnation. It was necessary to invent new expressions for a Magian idea in order to make it less shocking to Muslim conscience. Even the phrase "Promised Messiah" is not a product of Muslim religious consciousness. It is a bastard expression and has its origin in the Pre-Islamic Magian outlook.
> 
> We do not find it in early Islamic religious and historical literature. This remarkable fact is revealed by Professor Wensinck's Concordance of the Traditions of the Holy Prophet, which covers no less than eleven collections of the traditions and three of the earliest historical documents of Islam. One can very well understand the reasons why early Muslims never used this expression. The expression did not appeal to them probably because they thought that it implied a false conception of the historical process. The Magian mind regarded time as a circular movement, the glory of elucidation, the true nature of the historical process as a perpetually creative movement was reserved for the great Muslim thinker and historian, Ibn Khaldun.
> 
> The intensity of feeling which the Indian Muslims have manifested in opposition to the Quadiani movement is, therefore, perfectly intelligible to the student of modern sociology. The average Muslim who was the other day describes as "Mulla-ridden" by a writer in The Civil and Military Gazette is inspired in his opposition to the movement more by his instinct of self-preservation than by a fuller grasp called "enlightened"' Muslin has seldom made an attempt to understand the real cultural significance of the idea of Finality in Islam, and a process of slow and imperceptible westernisation has further deprived him even of the instinct of self-preservation. Some so-called enlightened Muslims have gone to the extent of preaching "tolerance' to their brethren-in-faith. I can easily excuse Sir Herbert Emerson for preaching toleration to Muslims; for a modern European who is born and brought up in an entirely different culture does not, and perhaps cannot, develop the insight which makes it possible for one to understand an issue vital to the very structure of a community with an entirely different cultural outlook.
> 
> In India circumstances are much more peculiar. This country of religious communities, where the future of each community rests entirely upon its solidarity, is ruled by a Western people who cannot but adopt a policy of non-interference in religion. This liberal and indispensable policy in a country like India has led to most unfortunate results. In so far as Islam is concerned, it is no exaggeration to say that the solidarity of the Muslim community in India under the British is far less safe than the solidarity of the Jewish community was in the days of Jesus under the Romans. Any religious adventurer in India can set up any claim and carve out a new community for his own exploration. This liberal State of ours does not care a fig for integrity of a parent community, provided the adventurer assures it of his loyalty and his followers are regular in the payment of taxes due to the State. The meaning of this policy for Islam was quite accurately seen by our great poet Akbar who in his usual humorous strain says:
> 
> _O friend! pray for the glory of the Briton's name:
> Say, "I am God" sans chain, sans cross, sans shame._
> 
> I very much appreciate the orthodox Hindus' demand for protection against religious reformers in the new constitution. Indeed, the demand ought to have been first made by the Muslims who. unlike Hindus, entirely eliminate the race idea from their social structure. The Government must seriously consider the present situation and try, if possible, to understand the mentality of the absolutely vital to the integrity of his community. After all, if the integrity of a community is threatened, the only course open to that community is to defend itself against the forces of disintegration.
> 
> And what are the ways of self-defense?
> 
> Controversial writings and refutation of the claims of the man who is regarded by the parent community as a religious adventurer. Is it then fair to preach toleration to the parent community whose integrity is threatened and to allow the rebellious group to carry on its propaganda with impunity, even when the propaganda is highly abusive?
> 
> If a group, rebellious from the point of view of the parent community, happens to be of some special service to Government, the latter are at liberty to reward their services as best as they can. Other communities will not grudge it. But the forces which tend seriously to affect its collective life. collective life is as sensitive to the danger of dissolution as individual life. It is hardly necessary to add in this connection that the mutual theological bickerings of Muslim sects do not affect vital principles on which all these sects agree with all their differences in spite of their mutual accusation of heresy.
> 
> There is one further point which demands Government's special consideration. The encouragement in India of religious adventurers, on the ground of modern liberalism, tends to make people more and more indifferent to religion and will eventually completely eliminate the important factor of religion from the life of Indian communities. The Indian mind is likely to be nothing less than the form of atheistic materialism which has appeared in Russia.
> 
> But the religious issue is not the only issue which is at present agitating the minds of the Punjab Muslims. There are other quarrels of a political nature which, according to my reading, Sir Herbert Emerson hinted in his speech at the Anjuman's anniversary. These are, no doubt, of a purely political nature, but they affect the unity of Punjab Muslims as seriously as the religious issue. While thanking the Government for their anxiety to see the Punjab Muslims united, I venture to suggest a little self-examination to the Government themselves. Who is responsible, I ask, for the distinction of rural and urban Muslims - a distinction which has cut up the Muslim community into two groups and the rural group into several sub-groups constantly at war with one another?
> 
> Sir Herbert Emerson deplores the lack of proper leadership among the Punjab Muslims. But I wish Sir Herbert Emerson realised that the rural-urban distinction created by the Government and maintained by them through ambitious political adventurers, whose eyes are fixed on their own personal interests and not on the unity of Islam in the Punjab, had already made the community incapable of producing a real leader. It appears to me that this device probably originated in a desire rather to make it impossible for real leadership to grow. Sir Herbert Emerson deplores the lack of leadership in Muslims; I deplore the continuation by the Government of a system which has crushed out all hope of a real leader appearing in the province.
> 
> Postscript. I understands that this statement has caused some misunderstanding in some quarters. It is thought that I have made a subtle suggestion to the Government to suppress the Qadiani movement by force. Nothing of the kind. I have made it clear that the policy of non-interference in religion is the only policy which can be adopted by the rulers of India. No other is possible policy is possible. I confess, however, that to my mind this policy is harmful to the interests of religious communities; but there is no escape from it and those who suffer will have to safeguard their interests by suitable means. *The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community*. This will be perfectly consistent with the policy of the Qadianis themselves, and the Indian Muslim will tolerate them just as he tolerates other religions.
> 
> The cultural value of the idea of finality in Islam I have fully explained elsewhere, its meaning is simple: No spiritual surrender to any human being after Muhammad (pbuh) who emancipated his followers by giving them a law which is realisable as arising from the very core of human conscience. Theologically, the doctrine is that: the socio-political organisation called "Islam" is perfect and eternal. No revelation the denial of which entails heresy is possible after Muhammad (pbuh). *He who claims such a revelation is a traitor to Islam*. *Since the Qadianis believe the founder of the Ahmadiyyah movement to be the bearer of such a revelation, they declare that the entire world of Islam is Infidel*. The founder's own argument, quite worthy of a medieval theologian, is that the spirituality of the Holy Prophet of Islam must be regarded as imperfect if it is not creative of another prophet. He claims his own prophethood to be an evidence of the prophet-rearing power of the spirituality of the Holy Prophet of Islam. But if you further ask him whether the spirituality of Muhammad (pbuh) is capable of rearing more prophets than one, his answer is "No". This virtually amounts to saying: "Muhammad (pbuh) is not the last Prophet: I am the last." Far from understanding the cultural value of the Islamic idea of finality in the history of mankind generally and of Asia especially, he thinks that finality in the sense that no follower of Muhammad (pbuh) can ever reach the status of prophethood is a mark of imperfection in Muhammad's (pbuh)prophethood. As I read the psychology of his mind he, in the interest of his own claim to prophethood avails himself of what he describes as the creative spirituality of the Holy Prophet of Islam and, at the same time, deprives the Holy Prophet of his "finality" by limiting the creative capacity of his spirituality of the rearing of only one prophet, i.e. the founder of the Ahmadiyyah movement. In this way does the new prophet quietly steal away the "finality" of one whom he claims to be his spiritual progenitor. He claims to be a _buruz_ of the Holy Prophet of Islam insinuating thereby that, being a _buruz_ of him, his "finality" is virtually the "finality" of Muhammad (pbuh); and that this view of the matter, therefore, does not violate the "finality" of the Holy Prophet. In identifying the two finalities, his own and that of the Holy Prophet, he conveniently loses sight of the temporal meaning of the idea of Finality. It is, however, obvious that the word _buruz_, in the sense even complete likeness, cannot help him at all; for the _buruz_ must always remain the other side of its original. Only in the sense of reincarnation a _buruz_ becomes identical with original. Thus if we take the word _buruz_ to mean "like in spiritual qualities" the argument remains ineffective; if, on the other hand, we take it to mean reincarnation of the original in the Aryan sense of the word, the argument becomes plausible; but its author turns out to be only a magian in disguise. It is further claimed on the authority of the great Muslim mystic, Muhyuddin ibn Arabi of Spain, that it is possible for a Muslim saint to attain, in his spiritual evolution, to the kind of experience characteristic of the prophetic consciousness. I personally believe this view of Shaikh Muhyuddin ibn Arabi to be psychologically unsound: but assuming it to be correct the Qadiani argument is based on a complete misunderstanding of his exact position. The Shaikh regards it as a purely private achievement which does not, and in the nature of things cannot, entitle such a saint to declare that all those who do not believe in him are outside the pale of Islam. Indeed, from the Shaikh's point of view, there may be more than one saint, living in the same age or country, who may attain to prophet consciousness. The point to be seized is that, while it is psychologically possible for a saint to attain to prophetic experience, his experience will have no socio-political significance making him the centre of a new organisation and entitling him to declare this organisation to be the criterion of the faith or disbelief of the followers of Muhammad (pbuh). Leaving his mystical psychology aside I am convinced from a careful study of the relevant passages of the "Futuhat" that the great Spanish mystic is as a firm a believer in the Finality of Muhammad (pbuh) as any orthodox Muslim. And if he had seen in his mystical vision that one day in the East some Indian amateurs in Sufism would seek to destroy the Holy Prophet's Finality under cover of his mystical psychology, he would have certainly anticipated the Indian Ulama in warning the Muslims of the world against such traitors to Islam.
> 
> Indian Muslims and Partition of India by SM Ikram is also a MUST READ on this important issue.


Iqbal gave awareness on the subject to people. Ahmedis are not Muslim by our standards, but this is a highly personal matter, nothing that the government can proclaim.

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## qsaark

Asim Aquil said:


> Iqbal gave awareness on the subject to people. Ahmedis are not Muslim by our standards, but this is a highly personal matter, nothing that the government can proclaim.


It is not highly personal matter otherwise a person of Iqbal's stature would have never requested the British Indian Government to declare Qadianis as a separate community:

"_*The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community*_".


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## qsaark

T-Faz said:


> Yes *Allah the Almighty* will judge me and Inshallah the tyrants will rot in hell.


InshaAllah is a compound word made up of Insha = will and Allah. With your '*Inshallah*' where if there is 'Insha' there is no 'Allah', and if there is 'allah', there is no will, its unlikely that your tyrants will rot in the hell.


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## T-Faz

qsaark said:


> InshaAllah is a compound word made up of Insha = will and Allah. With your '*Inshallah*' where if there is 'Insha' there is no 'Allah', and if there is 'allah', there is no will, its unlikely that your tyrants will rot in the hell.



Yes, instead Jamaat e Islami will rot in hell.

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## qsaark

T-Faz said:


> Yes, instead Jamaat e Islami will rot in hell.


Ameen; I am also a vehement opposer of _Jamaat Islami_ and its terrorist wing, _Islami Jamiat Tulba_.

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## Awesome

qsaark said:


> It is not highly personal matter otherwise a person of Iqbal's stature would have never requested the British Indian Government to declare Qadianis as a separate community:
> 
> "_*The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community*_".


Iqbal's statement:



> Postscript. I understands that this statement has caused some misunderstanding in some quarters. It is thought that I have made a subtle suggestion to the Government to suppress the Qadiani movement by force. Nothing of the kind. I have made it clear that the policy of non-interference in religion is the only policy which can be adopted by the rulers of India. No other is possible policy is possible. I confess, however, that to my mind this policy is harmful to the interests of religious communities; but there is no escape from it and those who suffer will have to safeguard their interests by suitable means. The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community. This will be perfectly consistent with the policy of the Qadianis themselves, and *the Indian Muslim will tolerate them just as he tolerates other religions.*



Iqbal's statement is a statement he gives as a last ditch effort to make everyone get along. You can see that he's conceding to the Muslims' intolerance. He's not saying its the right thing to do, but its the thing he'd suggest in a majboori (out of compulsion).

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## qsaark

I am failed to understand what is wrong in preventing the Qadyanis from using the word Islam? The able members, the SuperMods, the Think Tanks, are they better in their understanding of the issue of Finality, and the issue of using the name of Islam by the non-Muslims than the Prophet (PBUH) himself and the Khulafa Rashideen? 

Were Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab not killed? As you must know, during the last part of the life of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab made false claims to Prophethood. Uswad Ansi was killed under the direct orders of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) by Hazrat Feroze Dailmi Radi Allahu unhu in Yemen and after hearing this news, Muhammed (PBUH) had said "_Last night, Uswad Ansi was killed  he was killed by a blessed person from the house of the blessed._ He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) was asked about the person who did this. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said _"Feroz did this  Feroz has succeeded (in hereafter)._

After Muhammed (PBUH) had passed away, Ameer ul Momineen Hazrat Abu Bakar ordered the Muslim troops to find and kill the Muselma Kazaab. Muselma Kazzab was killed along with some tens of thousands (about 28,000) of his followers in the battlefield of Yamama by the Muslim forces under the command of Khalid bin Waleed Radi Allahu unhu. About 1,200 Muslims also got martyred and this was the largest number of Muslims martyred in the last 10 years. Please note that the total number of Companions (Sahaba ajmaeen) martyred in Jehad during the ten years of Prophets (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) life in Medina is 259, whereas those martyred defending the cause of Finality of Prophethood against the apostates amount to 1200  included amongst them are 70 Ahl e Badr (companions who took part in the battle of Badr), and 700 reciters and memorizers of Quran. This includes the Imam (Prayer Leader) of Quba Mosque, one of the four notable reciters (Salim Mola Huzaifa Radi Allahu unhu), elder bother of Hazrat Umer Radi Allahu unhu (Zaid bin Khattab Radi Allahu unhu), spokesman of Prophet Sallallahu Alahyi Wasallam (Sabit bin Qais bin Shammas Ansari Radi Allahu unhu) and prominent companions, Hazrat Tufail bin Umro and Huzaifa bin Yaman Radi-Allahu unhum. 

*This was the importance of the cause of Finality of Prophethood*.

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## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> Iqbal's statement:
> 
> 
> Iqbal's statement is a statement he gives as a last ditch effort to make everyone get along. You can see that he's conceding to the Muslims' intolerance. He's not saying its the right thing to do, but its the thing he'd suggest in a majboori (out of compulsion).



Asim i agree with the fact that Doctor Sahib did his best to keep all in one box but look you and i both understand that to survive in a same place we need not to have too many differences.

Difference of opinion goes hand in hand with debates and in some cases conflicts but Doctor sahib did this effort in his good faith being a well wisher to Muslim Ummah.

At that time the Qadiyanis were well in disguise between Muslims and They were NOT declared a Non muslim community,though conflicts because of their Misguided Faith were starting to begain.

It was back in 60's when Top of the Line Ulema started Mubahhlah's and Debates with Qadiyanis about their Believes and they got bangged in all of them and ran away from many , didn't attended few of them.

They were *Proved Non muslims* then it was brought to our constitution.

Now there is no doubt that they are Non muslims , Thank God our elders did this work for us as they were supposed to do so.

So yes Doctor Allama Iqbal (rehmat Allah eleh) done what he could to keep Muslims including Ahmadis (who were not proven Kafirs at that time so they still were considered Muslims) in the same line as this is what you do when you are a man of his caliber.

Thanks


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## Awesome

Black Blood said:


> Asim i agree with the fact that Doctor Sahib did his best to keep all in one box but look you and i both understand that to survive in a same place we need not to have too many differences.
> 
> Difference of opinion goes hand in hand with debates and in some cases conflicts but Doctor sahib did this effort in his good faith being a well wisher to Muslim Ummah.
> 
> At that time the Qadiyanis were well in disguise between Muslims and They were NOT declared a Non muslim community,though conflicts because of their Misguided Faith were starting to begain.
> 
> It was back in 60's when Top of the Line Ulema started Mubahhlah's and Debates with Qadiyanis about their Believes and they got bangged in all of them and ran away from many , didn't attended few of them.
> 
> They were *Proved Non muslims* then it was brought to our constitution.
> 
> Now there is no doubt that they are Non muslims , Thank God our elders did this work for us as they were supposed to do so.
> 
> So yes Doctor Allama Iqbal (rehmat Allah eleh) done what he could to keep Muslims including Ahmadis (who were not proven Kafirs at that time so they still were considered Muslims) in the same line as this is what you do when you are a man of his caliber.
> 
> Thanks


Engage in debates, there's nothing wrong with that but you can't force them to call them non-Muslims. To use an example before they can call themselves King Kong, it doesn't become my business to say no to that.

Look at the end of the day the message we're passing to your future generations is that, that its okay to use force and make one religion change itself according to our demands. Now the same is happening to you world over and you cry foul. Your women are being dis-robed or de-hijabed in the UK and Europe and you cry foul. You can't build your mosques in the traditional Islamic way in Switzerland and you cry foul, you can't sell halaal food in France and you cry foul. The whole world should lie before you and you should be allowed to stomp over everyone?

They have the strength, they did their subjugation of Muslims, just like we have the strength in Pakistan, we also subjugated the Ahmedis.

Till we don't build this tolerance within us we'll remain backward and tied up within petty issues.

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## kallol

About treating minorities in Pakistan :

1. What is the status of Ahmedis ?

2. How does pakistan treat Shia ?

3. What was the % population of the minorities (Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc) during 1947 and now ?

4. What has been the % increase trends in churches, synagog and temples in Pakistan from 1947 till present ?

5. What does blasphemy mean to minorities ?

4. What % of minorities are in high position and visible position or are admired ?

These questions will provide clue to how tolerant and equanimous is Pakistan

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## Gin ka Pakistan

kallol said:


> About treating minorities in Pakistan :
> 
> 
> 2. How does pakistan treat Shia ?



Our President is a Shia

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## JonAsad

kallol said:


> About treating minorities in Pakistan :
> 
> 1. What is the status of Ahmedis ?
> 
> 2. How does pakistan treat Shia ?
> 
> 3. What was the &#37; population of the minorities (Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc) during 1947 and now ?
> 
> 4. What has been the % increase trends in churches, synagog and temples in Pakistan from 1947 till present ?
> 
> 5. What does blasphemy mean to minorities ?
> 
> 4. What % of minorities are in high position and visible position or are admired ?
> 
> These questions will provide clue to how tolerant and equanimous is Pakistan



Dear Sir,
if you want to talk about minorities, democracy or other matters go to relevant threads. Dont try to derail this thread.

you indians specially hindus have no right to come in this thread to express you views or to take part in our religious matters. you have no idea about the severety of ahmadis fitna nor you understand islam.

So kindly take ur BS somewhere else, and take your thank you army with you (which are always ready to thank any posts an indian has written) and let the muslim members discuss their faith.

This thread should not concern you.
now if u justify that you are only here bcaz of dat tyrant indians comment then couple of indians have already commented on that and that is enough.


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## JonAsad

toxic_pus said:


> *On March 24, 2007, Justice Rana Bhagwandas, while being sworn in as acting chief justice of Pakistan, had to take his oath of of&#64257;ce with a Quranic prayer: May Allah Almighty help and guide me, Ameen.* Imagine what would happen if a Muslim judge in India, the United States, or Canada were forced to take the oath on the Bible or the Bhagavad-Gita. You would have the streets full of outraged demonstrators across the world. Where were these demonstrators when Justice Bhagwandas was humiliated publicly? [_Chasing A Mirage  The Tragic Illusion Of An Islamic Faith by Tarek Fatah; pg 41_][/INDENT]



thats y we dont allow ny non-muslim to be the president of our country, you will not understand this because you are not a muslim.. so get out of this thread and raise this issue some where else.

This thread is only for discussion on Ahmedi fitna


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## Meesna

qsaark said:


>



Its funny you mention deobandis as their founder Maulana Qasim Nanutwi was actually a denier of finality of parenthood.

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## Meesna

qsaark said:


>

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## Meesna

qsaark said:


> It is not highly personal matter otherwise a person of Iqbal's stature would have never requested the British Indian Government to declare Qadianis as a separate community:
> 
> "_*The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community*_".



I don't know what you are trying to say. You jump around from right of a person to beliefs, to specific beliefs, to large cuts and pastes. Point is regardless of what a person believes or not they are protected by universal declaration of human rights to which Pakistan is also a signatory in case you were wondering. Whether you like what others believe or not, you can not persecute them for their beliefs.

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## T-Faz

kallol said:


> About treating minorities in Pakistan :



*1. What is the status of Ahmedis ?*

Though Ahmadies are classified as non muslims, they are a very influential minority in Pakistan, represented highly in civil and military sectors. They do not disclose their religion much because they do not consider themselves as different from other muslims.



> Federal Baboos include 10 Jews
> 
> By Ansar Abbasi
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Whether you believe it or not, the federal government civil servants include ten declared Jews.
> 
> Generally it is considered that Pakistan, which contains minorities following diverse religious beliefs, does not have Jew population but the 12th census of civil servants proves it, otherwise.
> 
> There is no assessment of exact population of Jews in Pakistan but the federal civil servants' census report confirmed that 10 of the total federal civil servants are declared Jews. Without showing their names, as it seems suitable to ensure their safety and security, the report says that the ten Jews include one officer in BPS 18; one in BPS 17; four in BPS 16; one in BPS 14 and three in BPS 13. There is, however, no Jew serving in senior grades of BPS 19 to 22.
> 
> According to the official data, an overwhelming majority (97.5 per cent) of the federal civil servants are Muslims. There are 508 (0.2 pc) Ahmadis, 422 (0.2pc) Hindus (caste and non-caste), 24 Buddhists, 3,819 (1.6pc) Christians, 10 Jews, 12 Parsis and 45 belonging to other different religions. Interestingly 0.5pc employees have not disclosed their religion.
> 
> The strength of Muslim employees in BPS 19 to 22 is 97.7pc; BS 17 to 18 is 97.9pc; BS 16 is 97.7pc; BS 11 to 15 is 98.3pc; BS 3 to 10 is 98.7pc and BS 1 to 2 is 95.1pc. *The statistic shows that strength of Ahmadis, generally known as Qadianis, in BS 19 to 22 is 0.9pc; in BS 17 and 18 is 0.9pc; in BS 16 is 0.8pc; in BS 11 to 15 is 0.3pc; in BS 3 to 10 is 0.1pc and in BS 1 to 2 is 0.1pc.*
> 
> *The statistics about Qadiani employees shows that they mostly hold senior positions in the federal civilian bureaucracy. The percentage of Qadiani officials shrinks as one observes their number against lower tiers. However, it is expected that most of the 0.5pc of the federal civil servants, who did not disclose their religion, are also Qadianis.
> *
> The BPS-wise analysis shows that Hindus are nine BS 19 to 22 officers in the federal bureaucracy. They are in BS-17 to 18; nine in BS-16; 39 in BS-11 to 15; 85 in BS-3 to 10 and 254 in BS-1 to 2.
> 
> The analysis about Buddhist employees reveals that out of the total 24 civil servants belonging to this religion, one is serving against BS-19; one in BS-18; one in BS-14; one in BS-9; four in BS-7; one in BS-6; four in BS 5; two in BS-2 and nine in BS-1.
> 
> Scrutiny of the Christian employees indicates that an overwhelming majority of them ie 2,784 out of the total 3,819 are in BS-1 and BS-2. In other scales they are: 613 in BS-3 to 10; 307 in BS-11 to 15; 77 in BS-16; 32 in BS-17 to 18; four in BS-19; and one each in BS-20 and BS-21. The study of federal civil servants also shows that a total of 12 civil servants belong to Parsi religion. These include one in BS-18; one in BS-17; three in BS-16; one in BS-11; one in BS-7 and five in BS-1.
> 
> About the prospects of upward mobility of the civil servants belonging to minorities, a senior official of the establishment division said the government employees have equal opportunities of promotion as enjoyed by their Muslims colleagues. The establishment division is of the view that any discrimination on the basis of religion or caste etc is unconstitutional. It is said that quite a large number of officers belonging to minorities have made it to the top echelons of the civilian bureaucracy and are given important assignments.



*2. How does pakistan treat Shia ?*

President is Shia, enough said.

*3. What was the &#37; population of the minorities (Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc) during 1947 and now ?*

We use the first census carried out in 1950/1 to determine the decrease or increase of minorities in WEST PAKISTAN alone, Indian media uses 1947 indicators to distort the truth to show a Pakistan where minorities are decreasing which is incorrect. Lets leave Bangladesh out and concentrate on the statistics of west Pakistan. I will use hindus as an example who have increased over time.



> Now lets answer your question, 1947 stats cannot be used becuase of mass migration of hindus towars india. Lets use 1950 for a better comparison shall we as it was when the migration and internal deisplacemt was over. There were 39,448,232 people in Pakistan and a total of 6.54 milllion hindus, of which 5.4 million left for India.
> 
> http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/akhwaja/papers/The%20Big%20March%20December%202005.pdf
> 
> Now Pakistan was left with 1.1 million from whom half were unfortunately killed from Muslims who heard of killing in India of other Muslims.
> 
> So by that account 500,000 hindus were left and today they are higher than 4 million, percentage does not matter becuase muslim population boomed and there were alot of immigrants who entered Pakistan.
> 
> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> 
> Islamic Revelution Against Terrorism: Did Hindu Population Decrease to 3% in Pakistan?
> 
> Similarly we have many hindus who serve in our civil service and have reached great heights. Today there are 4 million hindus in Pakistan, increases from half a million.
> 
> Pak Hindu MPs stage walkout over terror slur - Pakistan - World - The Times of India



4. What has been the % increase trends in churches, synagog and temples in Pakistan from 1947 till present ?

All temples, churches, gurdwara are well preserved and are opened by government for minorities if they do not have them in a certain place, the government on the request of an old Jewish lady opened a new synagogue in Pakistan in 2005, a jewish pakistani posted pics.

Look in the second page.

Jewish heritage outside Israel - Page 4 - SkyscraperCity 

5. What does blasphemy mean to minorities ?

Blasphemy means BS, its for show only in most places.

4. What % of minorities are in high position and visible position or are admired ?

Read my answer to second question and come to Karachi and you will see the highest flag in Clifton, Karachi is of the hindu temple. Many hindus, christians and qadiyanis are in very respectable and notable positions. Deepal Perwani, Rana Bhagwandas, Danish Kaneria, Fernando Lobos, just read about the catholic board of school of Pakistan. Many respected people in pakistani of minorities.

These questions will provide clue to how tolerant and equanimous is Pakistan 

Dont listen to the extremists here or anywhere else, the military and ISI is knocking them off the list one by one. 

Pakistan Zindabad, Terrorist Murdabad.

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## Awesome

toxic_pus said:


> In non-tyrant Pakistan...


Dude, I already gave the final word on this topic on this thread. If you want this debate create a new thread, I'll own you in the other thread . But don't derail this one.

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## kallol

Thanks T-Faz.

Knowing more about each other creates more transparency and removes wrong knoweldege.

The rule :

Friendship is best evolved when we nurture the common interests and universal goodness. Pointing out what is wrong in others leads to hatred only - enemity only.

This is true at every level. 

Encourage goodness in people, admire goodness and achievements of others. It brings out the best in the people / society / state / country.

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## T-Faz

kallol said:


> Thanks T-Faz.
> 
> Knowing more about each other creates more transparency and removes wrong knoweldege.
> 
> The rule :
> 
> Friendship is best evolved when we nurture the common interests and universal goodness. Pointing out what is wrong in others leads to hatred only - enemity only.
> 
> This is true at every level.
> 
> Encourage goodness in people, admire goodness and achievements of others. It brings out the best in the people / society / state / country.



Yes you are correct, if only we appreciated each others commendable characteristics and worked together to improve any shortcomings we may have.

It would have been a whole different story by now. But what has not happened does not mean it would not happen in the future, if a few can start working for betterment today, then tomorrow will get better.

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## qsaark

> I am failed to understand what is wrong in preventing the Qadyanis from using the word Islam? The able members, the SuperMods, the Think Tanks, are they better in their understanding of the issue of Finality, and the issue of using the name of Islam by the non-Muslims than the Prophet (PBUH) himself and the Khulafa Rashideen?
> 
> Were Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab not killed? As you must know, during the last part of the life of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab made false claims to Prophethood. Uswad Ansi was killed under the direct orders of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) by Hazrat Feroze Dailmi Radi Allahu unhu in Yemen and after hearing this news, Muhammed (PBUH) had said "Last night, Uswad Ansi was killed &#8211; he was killed by a blessed person from the house of the blessed. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) was asked about the person who did this. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said "Feroz did this &#8211; Feroz has succeeded (in hereafter).&#8221;
> 
> After Muhammed (PBUH) had passed away, Ameer ul Momineen Hazrat Abu Bakar ordered the Muslim troops to find and kill the Muselma Kazaab. Muselma Kazzab was killed along with some tens of thousands (about 28,000) of his followers in the battlefield of Yamama by the Muslim forces under the command of Khalid bin Waleed Radi Allahu unhu. About 1,200 Muslims also got martyred and this was the largest number of Muslims martyred in the last 10 years. Please note that the total number of Companions (Sahaba ajmaeen) martyred in Jehad during the ten years of Prophet&#8217;s (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) life in Medina is 259, whereas those martyred defending the cause of Finality of Prophethood against the apostates amount to 1200 &#8211; included amongst them are 70 Ahl e Badr (companions who took part in the battle of Badr), and 700 reciters and memorizers of Quran. This includes the Imam (Prayer Leader) of Quba Mosque, one of the four notable reciters (Salim Mola Huzaifa Radi Allahu unhu), elder bother of Hazrat Umer Radi Allahu unhu (Zaid bin Khattab Radi Allahu unhu), spokesman of Prophet Sallallahu Alahyi Wasallam (Sabit bin Qais bin Shammas Ansari Radi Allahu unhu) and prominent companions, Hazrat Tufail bin Umro and Huzaifa bin Yaman Radi-Allahu unhum.
> 
> *This was the importance of the cause of Finality of Prophethood*.



Strange is the fact though that even after mentioning about Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab and what actions(s) was taken against them by no one else but the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) himself, people are still arguing as if their intelligence and understanding of Islam is more than that of the Prophet (PBUH). 

That was pretty much my last post on this matter because I can only argue with normal people, with people considering themselves more smarter, intelligent, humane, and knowledgeable than the Prophet Muhammed and Khulafa e Rashideen , perhaps only Allah can deal and deal he will InshaAllah.

Allama Iqbal's Jawab e Shikwa is a true statement of the situation of the majority of the present day Muslims and why they are dishonored every where in the world.

_Dil se jo baat nikalti hai, asar rakhti hai,
Par nahin, taaqat-e-parwaaz magsr rakhti hai.
Qudsi-ul-asal hai, rif-atpe nazar rakhti hai,
Khaak se uthti hai, gardoon pe guzar rakhti hai.

Ishq tha fitna gar-o-sarkash-o-chalaak mira,
Aasman cheer gaya nala-e-bebaak mira.
Pir-e-gardoon ne kaha sun ke, kahin hai koi!
Bole sayyaare, sar-e-arsh-e-barin hai koi!

Chaand kahta tha, nahin, ahl-e-zamin hai koi!
Kahkashaan kahti thi, poshida yahin hai koi!
Kuchh jo samjha tau mere shikwe ko Ruzwan samjha,
Mujhe jannat se nikala hua insaan samjha.

Thi farishton ko bhi hairat, ke yeh aawaaz hai kya!
Arsh waalon pe bhi khulta nahin yeh raaz hai kya!
Taa sar-e-arsh bhi insaan ki tag-o-taaz hai kya?
Aa gai khak ki chutki ko bhi parwaaz hai kya?

Ghaafil aadaab se yeh sukkaam-e-zamin kaise hain,
Shokh-o-gustaakh yeh pasti ke makin kaise hain,
Is qadar shokh ke Allah se bhi barham hai,
Tha jo masjud-e-malaik yeh wohi Aadam hai?

Aalam-e kaif hai, dana-e-ramuz-e-kam hai,
Haan, magar ijaz ke asrar se namahram hai.
Naaz hai taaqat-e-guftaar pe insaanon ko,
Baat karne ka saliqa nahin nadaanon ko!

Aai aawaaz ghum-angez hai afsana tira,
Ashk-e-betaab se labrezhai paimana tira.
Shukr shikwe ko kiya husn-e-ada se tu ne,
Hum sakhun kar diyabandon ko khuda se tu ne.

Hum tau mayal ba-karam hai, koi sayal hi nahin,
Rah dikhlain kise rahraw-e-manzil hi nahin.
Tarbiat aam tau hai, jauhar-e-qabil hi nahin,
Jis se taamir ho aadam ki yeh who gil hi nahin.

Koi qabil ho tau hum shan-e-kai dete hain;
Dhoondne waalon ko duniya bhi nai dete hain!
Haath be-zor hain, ilhaad se dil khoo-gar hain,
Ummati baais-e-ruswai-e-paighamber hain.

But-shikan uth gaye, baaqi jo rahe but-gar hain,
Tha Brahim pidar, aur pisar Aazar hain.
Bada aasham naye baaqi naya khum bhi naye,
Harm-e-Kaaba naya, but bhi naye, tum bhi naye.

Who bhi din the ke yehi maya-e-raanai tha,
Naazish-e-mausim-e-gul lala-e-sahraai tha!
Jo Musalmaan tha Allah ka saudai tha,
Kabhi mehboob tumhara yehi harjaai tha.

Safah-e-dahar se baatil ko mitaya kis ne?
Nau-e-insaan ko ghulami se chhuraya kis ne?
Mere Kaabe ko jabeenon se basaya kis ne?
Mere Quran ko seenon se lagaya kis ne?

The tau aaba who tumhaare hi, magar tum kya ho?
Haath par haath dhare muntezir-e-farda ho!
Kya kaha? "bahr-e-musalmaan hai faqt waade-e-hur,"
Shikwa beja bhi kare koi tau laazim hai shaoor!

Adal hai faatir-e-hasti ka azal se dastur,
Muslim aaeen hua kafir tau mile hur-o-qasur;
Tum mein hooron ka koichahne wala hi nahin,
Jalwa-e-tur tau maujood hai, Moosa hi nahin.

Munfait ek hai is qaum ki, nuqsaan bhi ek,
Ek hi sab ka nabi, din bhi, imaan bhi ek,
Harm-e-paak bhi, Allah bhi, Quran bhi ek,
Kuchh bari baat thi hote jo musalmaan bhi ek!

Firqa bandi hai kahin, aur kahin zaaten hain.
Kya zamane mein panpaneki yehi baaten hain?
Jaa ke hote hain masaajid mein saf-aara tau gharib,
Zahmat-e-roza jo karte hain gawara tau gharib.

Naam leta hai agar koi hamara, tau gharib,
Pardah rakhta hao agar koi tumhara, tau gharib.
Umra nasha-e-daulat mein hain ghafil hum se,
Zinda hai millat-e-baiza ghurba ke dam se.

Shor hai ho gaye duniya se musalmaan naabood,
Hum yeh kahte hain ke the bhi kahin Muslim maujood?
Waza mein tum ho nisari, tau tamuddan mein Hanood,
Yeh musalmaan hain! Jinhen dekh ke sharmain Yahud?

**** ka ilm na bete ko agar azbar ho,
Phir pisar qabil-e-miraas-e-pidar kyonkar ho!
Har koi mast-e-mai-e-zauq-e-tan aasaani hai,
Tum musalmaan ho? Yeh andaaz-e-musalmaani hai?

Chaahte sab hain ke hon auj-e-surayya pe muqeem,
Pahle waisa koi paida tau kare qalb-e-salim!
Ahd-e-nau barq hai, aatish zan-e-har khirman hai,
Aiman is se koi sahra no koi gulshan hai.

Is nai aag ka aqwaam-e-kuhan eendhan hai,
Millat-e-khatam-e-rasal shoula ba parahan hai.
Dekh kar range-e-chaman ho na pareshan maali,
Kookab-e-ghuncha se shaakhen hain chamakne wali,

Khas-o-khashaak se hota hai gulistan khaali,
Gul bar andaaz hai khun-e-shuhda ki laali.
Rang gardoon ka zara dekh tau unnabi hai,
Yeh nikalte hue suraj ki ufaq taabi hai.

Nakhl-e-Islam namoona hai bro-mandi ka,
Phal hai yeh sainkron saalon ki chaman bandi ka.
Qaafila ho na sakega kabhi weeran tera,
Ghair yak baang-e-dara kuchh nahin samaan tera.

Nakhl-e-shama asti-o-dar should dood resha-e-tu,
Aaqbat soz bood saya-e-andesha-e-tu.
Ki Mohammed se wafa tu ne tau hum tere hain,
Yeh jahan cheez hai kya, lauh-eo-qalam tere hain._

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

qsaark said:


> It is not highly personal matter otherwise a person of Iqbal's stature would have never requested the British Indian Government to declare Qadianis as a separate community:
> 
> "_*The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community*_".



Were Iqbal to make that demand in modern Pakistan, he would be wrong - wrong ethically and morally.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

qsaark said:


> I am failed to understand what is wrong in preventing the Qadyanis from using the word Islam? The able members, the SuperMods, the Think Tanks, are they better in their understanding of the issue of Finality, and the issue of using the name of Islam by the non-Muslims than the Prophet (PBUH) himself and the Khulafa Rashideen?


It is wrong because it is an infringement on the rights and free speech of people belonging to the Ahmadi community.

No one as of yet has been able to make a case that the use of the word Islam or Muslim by Ahmadi's constitutes any sort of tangible harm to society.

Vague arguments about 'deceiving Muslims' etc. have been made that do not stand up to scrutiny since Ahmadi's are up front about their prophet after Muhammed, and the finality of prophethood with Muhammad is a central tenet of mainstream Islam, making it rather hard to argue that mainstream Muslims will somehow be 'deceived'.



> Were Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab not killed? As you must know, during the last part of the life of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab made false claims to Prophethood. Uswad Ansi was killed under the direct orders of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) by Hazrat Feroze Dailmi Radi Allahu unhu in Yemen and after hearing this news, Muhammed (PBUH) had said "_Last night, Uswad Ansi was killed  he was killed by a blessed person from the house of the blessed._ He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) was asked about the person who did this. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said _"Feroz did this  Feroz has succeeded (in hereafter)._


Where in the Quran does it call for a State to reject the right of a community to call themselves what they wish?

The Hadith are not infallible, they are not the word of Allah, they are but collections of events as recollected by men, and as collections recollected by men, they are subject to being polluted by the biases and follies of men.

There is simply no moral, ethical or Quranic justification for discriminating against Ahmadis and preventing them from calling themselves what they want.

And this is not about adopting 'Western sensibilities', which is an argument of last resort used by those defending the indefensible - there is simply no rational argument in favor of discriminating against Ahmadis.

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## Kompromat

^^ Why is it all about what few Ahmadis want and why isn't it about what Muslims want ??

The Bottom line is , Qadiyanis are declared kafirs Thus they cannot call themselves Muslims it does not make any sense at all does it to you ?

If they can prove themselves that they are Muslims than they have every right to associate themselves with Islam but we all know they cant because they are Wrong !

They are like any other Minority ie Christians or Hindus thus they need to have their own ideantity and not to misuse ours .

Its like using someone else's Passport or ID card or Drivers license which is a crime , is it too hard to understand ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Black Blood said:


> ^^ Why is it all about what few Ahmadis want and why isn't it about what Muslims want ??


Because what Ahmadis are demanding does not take anything away from another community, it does not discriminate against another community, it does not prevent free speech by another community.

Demands by Muslims do all of the above.


> The Bottom line is , Qadiyanis are declared kafirs Thus they cannot call themselves Muslims it does not make any sense at all does it to you ?


It does not make sense for the State to prevent Ahmadis from calling themselves what they wish to. 

As for the various Muslim sects, they can continue to believe what they want about the Ahmadis and preach to their flock about them as they wish, so long as they are no preaching hatred, violence, prejudice and discrimination - especially by the State.

What you believe as an individual is your personal and private belief, do not impose it on others.



> If they can prove themselves that they are Muslims than they have every right to associate themselves with Islam but we all know they cant because they are Wrong !



They should not have to prove anything about their faith to be treated equally by the State and be allowed to exercise their rights and freedoms. It is not the business of the State to determine who is a Muslim and who is not - that is up to Allah.

The various Islamic shools of thought are within their rights to declare Ahmadis non-Muslim, on a private level.


> They are like any other Minority ie Christians or Hindus thus they need to have their own ideantity and not to misuse ours .


There is no 'misuse' here, they wish to call themselves Muslim because that is what they believe they are, and others do not (or shoudl not) have the right to force them to do otherwise.


> Its like using someone else's Passport or ID card or Drivers license which is a crime , is it too hard to understand ?


That is a poor analogy - a passport or ID card being misused has serious potential repercussions for the individual in case of crime, ID theft etc.

The use of a particular label by a community does not have that impact on an individual (or should not at least). Where we do see the 'label of Muslim' being misused and having an impact on Muslims everywhere is through the actions of Muslims carrying out terrorism, which causes some to look at all Muslims suspiciously (which is not the right thing to do but is happening anyway), and there are no Ahmadi's involved in those acts are there?

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## Patriot

and then Muslims claim that French people are wrong in banning the burqa.

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## thebrownguy

Patriot said:


> and then Muslims claim that French people are wrong in banning the burqa.



Exactly thats the point! I am glad that there are people who agree on the fundamental hypocrisy of the topic.

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## v9s

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Hadith are not infallible, they are not the word of Allah, they are but collections of events as recollected by men, and as collections recollected by men, they are subject to being polluted by the biases and follies of men.
> 
> There is simply no moral, ethical or Quranic justification for discriminating against Ahmadis and preventing them from calling themselves what they want.
> 
> And this is not about adopting 'Western sensibilities', which is an argument of last resort used by those defending the indefensible - there is simply no rational argument in favor of discriminating against Ahmadis.



Wow. Thank you for that brilliant post.

It's time that Muslims woke up and realized that hadith are not to be taken as religious source but as a historical source only.

There are so many contradictions in the hadith it's not even funny.

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## T-Faz

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is wrong because it is an infringement on the rights and free speech of people belonging to the Ahmadi community.
> 
> No one as of yet has been able to make a case that the use of the word Islam or Muslim by Ahmadi's constitutes any sort of tangible harm to society.
> 
> Vague arguments about 'deceiving Muslims' etc. have been made that do not stand up to scrutiny since Ahmadi's are up front about their prophet after Muhammed, and the finality of prophethood with Muhammad is a central tenet of mainstream Islam, making it rather hard to argue that mainstream Muslims will somehow be 'deceived'.
> 
> 
> Where in the Quran does it call for a State to reject the right of a community to call themselves what they wish?
> 
> *The Hadith are not infallible, they are not the word of Allah, they are but collections of events as recollected by men, and as collections recollected by men, they are subject to being polluted by the biases and follies of men.
> 
> There is simply no moral, ethical or Quranic justification for discriminating against Ahmadis and preventing them from calling themselves what they want.
> 
> And this is not about adopting 'Western sensibilities', which is an argument of last resort used by those defending the indefensible - there is simply no rational argument in favor of discriminating against Ahmadis.*



Excellent, simply brilliant point put forward by you. This should be the end of this thread now. Well done sir.

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## zangi

Brother, these innocent peoples are murdered only because of their faith and rest of the 100s you mentioned are not murdered / rapped / kidnapped for this




Black Blood said:


> Everyday hundered's of kidnap rape and murder incidents happen in Pakistan and they do not come to Dawn news or mainstream media but they are burried forever.
> 
> something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities.. By having said that i am not denying that mistreatment with minorities does not exist but what i am worried about is that Why Minorities and mormal Pakistanis are treated differently and why normal Pakistanis do not get well deserved publicity ?
> 
> pope benedict starts talking about Christians under persecusion in Pakistan because he has been fed by BS propegenda of christian leader mr Bhatti who openly supports BLA and calls Pakistan a terrorist nation .
> 
> he is not being charged neither GOP has denied pope's allegations.
> why dont people understand that the country is at war and no one speaks of 30 thousand innocent Pakistani civilians killed on the streets but they do talk about few Pakistani sikhs being kidnapped and killed or in this case ahmadis or christians.
> 
> The country belongs to everyone who calls himself a pakistani and when other fellow Muslims are paying sacrifices for Nation what is so wrong with minorities ?
> 
> They must understand it but if ahmadis feel that they are not safe here i guess their Masters and creators ie Brits and Canadians are quite welcoming to the enemies of Islam and they should leave this intollerent society.
> regards


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## kugga

Look ppl i just want to say that Ahmadi's have a clear difference with muslims so they are not a sect of Islam.... and they also believe that what Islam says is totally different from their belief Islam does not allow a new prophet in the chain and as they have introduced a new prophet they cannot be termed as Muslims....

when they call themselves Msulims it hurts millions of muslims who know what ahmadis belief its state's responsibility to save the interests of its citizens and so as the state is doing if Pakistan were not muslim majority country the would have not declared non-muslims.... because in that case no body cares what ever they calls themselves but we care and we don't want others to misuse the name of our religion that is why we are against taliban because they are misusing the name our religion..


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## Meesna

kugga said:


> when they call themselves Msulims it hurts millions of muslims



Why allow hijab or minarets or other Muslim practices in west when it hurts millions of westerners? You are actually justifying these restrictions. This list of restrictions on Muslims in west may even extend in future. Tomorrow some in west may demand ban on propagation of Islam as they deem it an extremist or anti-western religion not in line with western traditions. The far right BNP party has already declared that they will not allow building of any more mosques in UK if they came to power. I am guessing you will not have any problem with that. I don't see any difference in what you are saying and what these far right parties, who would completely ban Islam if it were up to them, stand for.

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## T-Faz

kugga said:


> Look ppl i just want to say that Ahmadi's have a clear difference with muslims so they are not a sect of Islam.... and they also believe that what Islam says is totally different from their belief Islam does not allow a new prophet in the chain and as they have introduced a new prophet they cannot be termed as Muslims....
> 
> when they call themselves Msulims it hurts millions of muslims who know what ahmadis belief its state's responsibility to save the interests of its citizens and so as the state is doing if Pakistan were not muslim majority country the would have not declared non-muslims.... because in that case no body cares what ever they calls themselves but we care and we don't want others to misuse the name of our religion that is why we are against taliban because they are misusing the name our religion..



Great philosophy, so another sect claiming to be Muslim can hurt the 'feelings' of a Muslim majority based on their differences. May I ask how does it hurt your feelings, in what sense do you feel hurt by another sect claiming to be of your religion.

You contradict yourself because Taliban not only hurt your feelings, they kill and destroy but they have not been deemed as non Muslims. Why not brand them non Muslims first and then repeat this statement.

One final question for you and most other people, do you prefer to live with Ahmadies or such groups as the Taliban who follow the wahabi/salafi hardline sect. Which one would you term as a non Muslim through state passed law and remember, Ahmadies only hurt your feelings but if your faith is strong you can live with it whereas Taliban would bomb your family and then that would really hurt your sensitive feelings.

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## Awesome

Meesna said:


> Why allow hijab or minarets or other Muslim practices in west when it hurts millions of westerners? You are actually justifying these restrictions. This list of restrictions on Muslims in west may even extend in future. Tomorrow some in west may demand ban on propagation of Islam as they deem it an extremist or anti-western religion not in line with western traditions. The far right BNP party has already declared that they will not allow building of any more mosques in UK if they came to power. I am guessing you will not have any problem with that. I don't see any difference in what you are saying and what these far right parties stand for.


Unfortunately it is the way of the world. We have power we can tyrannize you. They have power, they can tyrannize us.

Everything aside, the Quran commands us otherwise.

1	Say to the disbelievers	
2	"I worship not that which you worship,	
3	"Nor will you worship that which I worship.	
4	"And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.	
5	"Nor will you worship that which I worship.	
*6	"To you be your religion, and to me my religion."*

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## kugga

Meesna said:


> Why allow hijab or minarets or other Muslim practices in west when it hurts millions of westerners? You are actually justifying these restrictions. This list of restrictions on Muslims in west may even extend in future. Tomorrow some in west may demand ban on propagation of Islam as they deem it an extremist or anti-western religion not in line with western traditions. The far right BNP party has already declared that they will not allow building of any more mosques in UK if they came to power. I am guessing you will not have any problem with that.



Obviously UK is a democratic country and if there people do not want any more mosques its there decision I cannot say any thing like the government of Belgium has passed the law against hijab but if you want democracy you will have to bear all this.... democracy says that masses are always right and that's what is its products if you want to counter the acts of Belgium govt you must have a population on your


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## kugga

T-Faz said:


> You contradict yourself because Taliban not only hurt your feelings, they kill and destroy but they have not been deemed as non Muslims. Why not brand them non Muslims first and then repeat this statement.



Taliban cannot be declared non-muslims as per this hadeeth 


_Volume 1, Book 8, Number 417:

Narrated 'Itban bin Malik:

who was one of the companions of Allah's Apostle and one of the Ansar's who took part in the battle of Badr: I came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle I have weak eyesight and I lead my people in prayers. When it rains the water flows in the valley between me and my people so I cannot go to their mosque to lead them in prayer. O Allah's Apostle! I wish you would come to my house and pray in it so that I could take that place as a Musalla. Allah's Apostle said. "Allah willing, I will do so." Next day after the sun rose high, Allah's Apostle and Abu Bakr came and Allah's Apostle asked for permission to enter. I gave him permission and he did not sit on entering the house but said to me, "Where do you like me to pray?" I pointed to a place in my house. So Allah's Apostle stood there and said, 'Allahu Akbar', and we all got up and aligned behind him and offered a two-Rak'at prayer and ended it with Taslim. We requested him to stay for a meal called "Khazira" which we had prepared for him. Many members of our family gathered in the house and one of them said, "Where is Malik bin Al-Dukhaishin or Ibn Al-Dukhshun?" One of them replied, "He is a hypocrite and does not love Allah and His Apostle."* Hearing that, Allah's Apostle said, "Do not say so. Haven't you seen that he said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah' for Allah's sake only?" He said, "Allah and His Apostle know better. We have seen him helping and advising hypocrites."

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah has forbidden the (Hell) fire for those who say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah' for Allah's sake only."*
_

second thing Ahamdi's cannot be termed as Muslims as Quran says Prophet (S.A.W) as Kahtim ul Nabiyeen means the seal of prophets i.e the Last Messanger of Allah. 

Now what I am saying that Ahmadi's are non-muslims if they misuse the name of Islam its wrong and Taliban the Muslims(As we cannot declare them non-muslims) if they misuse Islam's name they are also wrong and Paksitani govt. should take steps to counter both of them.



T-Faz said:


> One final question for you and most other people, do you prefer to live with Ahmadies or such groups as the Taliban who follow the wahabi/salafi hardline sect. Which one would you term as a non Muslim through state passed law and remember, Ahmadies only hurt your feelings but if your faith is strong you can live with it whereas Taliban would bomb your family and then that would really hurt your sensitive feelings.



Look Talibans is a race not all taliban are militants. It looks to you the all of them are bad but there are good talibans as well... and as far living is concerned I can live with any one if I am not the chooser, but if I am given a choice I will never prefer Ahmadi's because they say that their bullshit prophet was equivalent to Holy prophet(S.A.W)..... their prophet say that he and Muhammad (S.A.W) are like an man seeing his image in a mirror and he termed himself as the man and Muhammad (S.A.W) as his Image....... and then the Ahmadi's say that they are msulims this thing is rediculous..... I don't want to kill them all I jsut don't want to term there religion as Islam term it something else... term it chritianity, term it hinduism then it will be no more my business 



T-Faz said:


> Great philosophy, so another sect claiming to be Muslim can hurt the 'feelings' of a Muslim majority based on their differences. May I ask how does it hurt your feelings, in what sense do you feel hurt by another sect claiming to be of your religion..



Explained above


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## kugga

Asim Aquil said:


> The Quran commands us otherwise.
> 
> 1	Say to the disbelievers
> 2	"I worship not that which you worship,
> 3	"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
> 4	"And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
> 5	"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
> *6	"To you be your religion, and to me my religion."*



But don't say that your and mine religion is the same if you are an ahmadi coz being an ahmadi is like adopting another religion so name you religion ahmadiya or something like that...... why Islam?? 
Take your religion to yourself and let my religion to be mine


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## Meesna

kugga said:


> Obviously UK is a democratic country and if there people do not want any more mosques its there decision I cannot say any thing like the government of Belgium has passed the law against hijab but if you want democracy you will have to bear all this.... democracy says that masses are always right and that's what is its products if you want to counter the acts of Belgium govt you must have a population on your



You agree that if sunnis make laws against shias, in other words persecute them legally, that is fine as they are in majority. If brelvis want to make such laws against deobandis or jamaat islami that is fine too as they are in majority too. Punjabis can make such laws against other ethnicities and that would be fine as they are in majority.

In trying to take away rights of Ahmadis you have come up with a principle that no shia, doebandi, jamaati or non-Punjabi would agree to and hopefully many from majorities will disagree as well. 

Come up with something that does not show you as insane. You don't want to give Ahmadis their rights but you need to come up with a better excuse to justify their persecution.

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## Meesna

kugga said:


> But don't say that your and mine religion is the same if you are an ahmadi coz being an ahmadi is like adopting another religion so name you religion ahmadiya or something like that...... why Islam??
> Take your religion to yourself and let my religion to be mine



But problem is you want to define your own religion, as well as their religion for them. 

You believe what you want to believe and let them believe what they want to believe. That is what "To you be your religion, and to me my religion" is. Its not "To you be *my defined* religion, and to me my religion"

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## kugga

Meesna said:


> You agree that if sunnis make laws against shias, in other words persecute them legally, that is fine as they are in majority. If brelvis want to make such laws against deobandis or jamaat islami that is fine too as they are in majority too. Punjabis can make such laws against other ethnicities and that would be fine as they are in majority.
> 
> In trying to take away rights of Ahmadis you have come up with a principle that no shia, doebandi, jamaati or non-Punjabi would agree to and hopefully many from majorities will disagree as well.
> 
> Come up with something that does not show you as insane. You don't want to give Ahmadis their rights but you need to come up with a better excuse to justify their persecution.



Look bro there is no comparison between shia sunni and ahmadis you can comapre them to chritians or hindus because ahmadiya is totally a different religion..... and I never said they shouldn't be given rights but I am agianst calling them as muslims coz they are surely not if you don't beleive me go read books of ahmadiya and then read quran you will find out wat um saying is right....
They are living here with full rights except that they cannot say themselves as muslims but still they are saying themselves and they are not barred at all for this....
Ahamdiyas form the elites of pakistan if you are not living abroad you might know this..... there children study in best schools of pakistan they have lots of worship places of them here.... I can show you many in Lahore if you want to.... 
Now what sort rights you want???


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## kugga

Meesna said:


> But problem is you want to define your own religion, as well as their religion for them.
> 
> You believe what you want to believe and let them believe what they want to believe. That is what "To you be your religion, and to me my religion" is. Its not "To you be *my defined* religion, and to me my religion"



I 've never said that ahamadis should include this in there religion and should not include that....

My simple point is that 
" Don't call my religion as yours "


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## Meesna

kugga said:


> Look bro there is no comparison between shia sunni and ahmadis you can comapre them to chritians or hindus because ahmadiya is totally a different religion.....



There is absolute comparison as Ahmadis are human and as such have every human right. Until you become king of the world that is how it stands. You need to argue within some commonly held principles. Just because you think Ahmadis are untouchables and are lesser humans with lesser rights does not make it so. It does show you as a bigot of worst kind though.



> and I never said they shouldn't be given rights but I am agianst calling them as muslims coz they are surely not if you don't beleive me go read books of ahmadiya and then read quran you will find out wat um saying is right....



Well they sure consider themselves Muslims and that is good enough, they have a right to consider themselves whatever they want. As for other sects they too disagree with each other to the extent to call each other kafir and even kill each other even to this day and that is wrong too for the same reason that each one of them has a right to call themselves Muslim and not be killed for that.



> They are living here with full rights except that they cannot say themselves as muslims but still they are saying themselves and they are not barred at all for this....



Completely untrue. They routinely get killed and are persecuted and discriminated against despite the anti-Ahmadi laws being in place too and routinely applied.



> Ahamdiyas form the elites of pakistan if you are not living abroad you might know this.....



Name those elite as I don't believe you. One or two names do not make a whole community, community of elites. Also what sort of elite are they that they can not stop their persecution neither the laws against them? This negates your claim of being elite.



> there children study in best schools of pakistan they have lots of worship places of them here.... I can show you many in Lahore if you want to....



Also tell us how many of Ahmadi children are discriminated against in admissions, are continuously harassed or their parents killed or sent t to prison for years just for being Ahmadi? Hundreds at least.

How many of Ahmadi mosques have been burnt, destroyed or taken over? Hundreds.

Show us those too to show the correct picture.



> Now what sort rights you want???



All citizens and all humans deserve equal rights without reference to their faith which is their own personal matter.

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## Meesna

kugga said:


> I 've never said that ahamadis should include this in there religion and should not include that....
> 
> My simple point is that
> " Don't call my religion as yours "



Who made it your religion? Show me the letter from God. It's a religion right? So the certificate must come from god. This argument is same as by sunnsi against shias and shias against sunnis and deobandis brelvis etc. All of them claim Islam to be theirs and kill others. This is also not limited to Islam, other religions have the same problem within. Same old same old.

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## Meesna

kugga said:


> ...



Here is an interesting Geo TV debate for you;

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## kugga

Meesna said:


> There is absolute comparison as Ahmadis are human and as such have every human right. Until you become king of the world that is how it stands. You need to argue within some commonly held principles. Just because you think Ahmadis are untouchables and are lesser humans with lesser rights does not make it so. It does show you as a bigot of worst kind though.



I have never said that that's all in your mind sir..... 





Meesna said:


> Well they sure consider themselves Muslims and that is good enough, they have a right to consider themselves whatever they want. As for other sects they too disagree with each other to the extent to call each other kafir and even kill each other even to this day and that is wrong too for the same reason that each one of them has a right to call themselves Muslim and not be killed for that.



O cum on no sect no sect says that if a person believes in a new prophet he's muslim.... NO SECT AT ALL
whether it shia or sunni
Shia sunni fight is on history and it's true that some of them try prove others as kafirs but I have provided you the hadith before and also an Ayat of quran which no sect denies and that proves the whole story........
Islam is religion and I am muslim and I have a right to defend it. Create a sect but not a new religion in religion.....
yaar I don't want to tell here what are there beliefs coz it will turn out to be a separate discussion but I simply assure you that no sect of Islam allows a new prophet coz its against Quran







Meesna said:


> Name those elite as I don't believe you. One or two names do not make a whole community, community of elites. Also what sort of elite are they that they can not stop their persecution neither the laws against them? This negates your claim of being elite.
> 
> 
> 
> Also tell us how many of Ahmadi children are discriminated against in admissions, are continuously harassed or their parents killed or sent t to prison for years just for being Ahmadi? Hundreds at least.
> 
> How many of Ahmadi mosques have been burnt, destroyed or taken over? Hundreds.
> 
> Show us those too to show the correct picture.
> 
> 
> 
> All citizens and all humans deserve equal rights without reference to their faith which is their own personal matter.



You are not living in Paksitan, I guess, that is why you are far far away from ground realities.... I cannot prove it to you that ahmadis are elites here coz I don't have a news paper on my side and you have a heck of news papers on your side saying that minorities are being crushed and whatever....... 
I 've many ahmadi friends mind it and they are enjoying the same equal rights as I am and even more.... Ahamdis prefer ahmadi's in their company ,they help each other on the basis of religion, they have discriminatory behaviour towards muslims when it comes to helping.... I have to suffer a lot to find my first job but all my ahmadi friend, mind it ,"all" of them got job in one month just because they were ahmadi and there community memebers were helping them in there respective fields...... and you say that "Bara zulm ho raha hai in beychaaron par.... " not at all bro they are living here exactly like I m living here..... all my ahmadi friends have houses in best societies of Lahore like DHA and they own them...... they own factories they own software houses they own resturants bakeries..... and they help each other on the basis of religion that's what I found out about ahmadis and believe me I am very close to them.......

and brother director of my university (NU-FAST) hope you have heared the name is an ahmadi him self and many professors are also hope you get it now that they are not discriminated when it comes to education




Meesna said:


> Completely untrue. They routinely get killed and are persecuted and discriminated against despite the anti-Ahmadi laws being in place too and routinely applied.



I am very close to my friends and I had debates with them on all such issues they never mensioned any such incident except those in 1953 I guess and something in 1973...... and nothing else..... no current incident at all.
A man is killed and then his murder is used by the media just to earn money......
Like BLA killed a lady professor , no one knew that she was a shia muslim, but dawn news tried even this incident to show negative side of Islam they tried to claim it a sectarian murder, thanks to BLA they took the responsibility other wise it was also to be blaimed on Islam

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## Al-zakir

Hammy007 said:


> and wtf is that its writen they are targetted becoz of ahmadi faith???, first their house was robbed, its the plain case of robbery and nothing more. its strange the robbers are not demanding the ransom and have said its becoz of theor faith.



Condemn any unjust killing. Every creature has the right to live in peace but death is everyday things in current Pakistan. Let&#8217;s condemn all innocent killing regardless the religious barrier.



> ahmadis are not muslims but that doesnt make them minority like sikhs and christians, they still believe some things from islam like shias do..



No wonder muslims are so divided.


You are being ignorant here. I know you are banned but still need to clarify something here. Ahmedis or Qadyanis are pure _kafir _because they do not believe in Rasul (S.W.S) as last prophet of men kinds whereas 95&#37; Shias(Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon(Hezbollah)) are pure Muslims with exception of some _kafir _in the name of Shias scatter around some part of Pakistan and elsewhere. 

Ahmedis or Qadyanis appeared from Sunni section of Muslims who believe Mirza Ahmed as the last of prophet of Islam (nauzubillah) similarly some fake Shias (insignificant number) believe that Hazrat Ali(RA) should have been the prophet(nauzubillah) instead of Muhammad(S.W.S). 

Only difference between Sunni and Shia Muslim is political rather than fundamental faith of Islam.

Learns some thing about Islam before making some foolish generalized statement that will cause further division among ummat-e-Rasul(S.W.S)

Thanks

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## kugga

Al-zakir said:


> Only difference between Sunni and Shia Muslim is political rather than fundamental faith of Islam.



I totally agree if read history the difference looks to be more political than faith related whereas in case of ahmadis the difference is of faith...


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## Awesome

kugga said:


> I 've never said that ahamadis should include this in there religion and should not include that....
> 
> My simple point is that
> " Don't call my religion as yours "


Their religion IS that they are followers of Prophet Muhammad and one more person. The one more person said it is the same religion. You can't stop them from believing that they are the same religion. Even if you don't let them say it out loud, they still believe it.

They can say we are Muslims, you can even say that they are not Muslims.

As long as the conflict is verbal it is a conflict of ideas and its all legal. When you act violent and start killing or jailing people then you make Muslims look idiotic, weak and insecure. More people will run away from Islam than join it from this promotion of caveman behavior. Don't let it happen.

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## kugga

Asim Aquil said:


> Their religion IS that they are followers of Prophet Muhammad and one more person. The one more person said it is the same religion. You can't stop them from believing that they are the same religion. Even if you don't let them say it out loud, they still believe it.
> 
> They can say we are Muslims, you can even say that they are not Muslims.
> 
> As long as the conflict is verbal it is a conflict of ideas and its all legal. When you act violent and start killing or jailing people then you make Muslims look idiotic, weak and insecure. More people will run away from Islam than join it from this promotion of caveman behavior. Don't let it happen.



InshaAllah nothing like that will happen but I am no one to set rules of religion.
When to parties fight there is a law to handle this fight and pakistani law says that I am right.... if any ahmadi think that it's not right he should file case against it instead trying to prove himself " the mazloom" 
My religion says that to be a muslim you have to believe that there is no more prophet comming any more...... if someone claims to be a prophet he's starting a new religion bs thats it.


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## Awesome

kugga said:


> InshaAllah nothing like that will happen but I am no one to set rules of religion.
> When to parties fight there is a law to handle this fight and pakistani law says that I am right.... if any ahmadi think that it's not right he should file case against it instead trying to prove himself " the mazloom"
> My religion says that to be a muslim you have to believe that there is no more prophet comming any more...... if someone claims to be a prophet he's starting a new religion bs thats it.


I never said you're saying something illegal, I'm saying the law has to change. Otherwise as Meesna mentioned, we're a constitutional apartheid state. There is no denying this black mark on us.


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## Al-zakir

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If they wish to call their religion Islam and follow it a particular way, then what concern is it of the State?



I disagree. I am all for Ahmedis to follow whatever suit their need however it can not be done in the name of or under the protection of Islam. They neither has the right to call it Islam nor call them self Muslim. They can call it Ahmediyyat after Mirza Ahmed. 

They must not call their place of worship as Masjid either as it cause confusion. 

For example: Say you hear Azan and happen to be around a Ahemdi's worship place. You joint the Jamat in good fate. As a result you just committed a great sin. Hence, I believe Islamic state has responsibility to differentiate Masjid vs other religious place to prevent act of _shirk_. 

Take a look at this picture below. It looks like a Masjid but it is the place of worship for Qadianis. An uninformed Muslim can make fatal mistake in good heart.

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## Al-zakir

Asim Aquil said:


> Their religion IS that they are followers of Prophet Muhammad and one more person. The one more person said it is the same religion. You can't stop them from believing that they are the same religion. Even if you don't let them say it out loud, they still believe it.



*&#1571;&#1588;&#1607;&#1583; &#1571;&#1606; &#1604;&#1575; &#1573;&#1604;&#1607; &#1573;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608; &#1571;&#1588;&#1607;&#1583; &#1571;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1585;&#1587;&#1608;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; *

Sir
There is no mention of this Mirza ahmed any where in _Shahadah _and a Muslim only follow the Muhammad(&#1589;&#1604;&#1740; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605 of Arabia. Islam has no other space of one more person so how can they be making their own stuff to include in Islam?

Who is this one more person and who give him right to play with the emotion of Umaat-e-Muhammad(&#1589;&#1604;&#1740; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605?

This "one more person" claimed on a debate against Shahi imam of Delhi that he was the last prophet of Islam. Shahi imam of Delhi told him that I am ullah and I have not grant you any prophecy. As a result we know how this one more person life ended in animal condition. 

Follower of Ummat-e-Rasul is not entitle to stand any _toheen _of their beloved prophet(S.W.S).

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## Awesome

Al-zakir said:


> *&#1571;&#1588;&#1607;&#1583; &#1571;&#1606; &#1604;&#1575; &#1573;&#1604;&#1607; &#1573;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608; &#1571;&#1588;&#1607;&#1583; &#1571;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1585;&#1587;&#1608;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; *
> 
> Sir
> There is no mention of this Mirza ahmed any where in _Shahadah _and a Muslim only follow the Muhammad(&#1589;&#1604;&#1740; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605 of Arabia. Islam has no other space of one more person so how can they be making their own stuff to include in Islam?
> 
> Who is this one more person and who give him right to play with the emotion of Umaat-e-Muhammad(&#1589;&#1604;&#1740; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1729; &#1593;&#1604;&#1740;&#1729; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605?
> 
> This "one more person" claimed on a debate against Shahi imam of Delhi that he was the last prophet of Islam. Shahi imam of Delhi told him that I am ullah and I have not grant you any prophecy. As a result we know how this one more person life ended in animal condition.
> 
> Follower of Ummat-e-Rasul is not entitle to stand any _toheen _of their beloved prophet(S.W.S).


Theek hai, maybe their religion is that we made a mistake and they are the enlightened ones with the correct path. As I said they can call themselves King Kong and we can't stop them. We can always call them wrong. Hisaab barabar. They call us wrong we call them wrong.

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## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> Theek hai, maybe their religion is that we made a mistake and they are the enlightened ones with the correct path. As I said they can call themselves King Kong and we can't stop them. We can always call them wrong. Hisaab barabar. They call us wrong we call them wrong.



No No Asim it is not about the perceptions , Deeni Matters are not solved on _Mantaq and Falsafa_ only , they must be supported by the Valid texts ie _The Holy Quran & the Sahee Hadith_.

Asim you might not be aware of what happened and how we proved them wrong before 1973 which lead to them being banished.

My home town in Pak was on the forefront of the Debates happened between Qadiyanis and Muslim Scholars they are called _The Mubbahlah_ and i have heard the recording myself of some of those debates in wich they were badly defeated.

Asim if something is proven wrong than it is wrong more like a normal court verdict supported by arguments and proofs.

We have proven that their faith is bases on _kufar_ if they have the capability to prove otherwise they are welcomed to do that.

I invite all of the qadiyanis here to come to debate with me on this matter & i will prove them wrong even though i am not a Mullah .

So stop thinking that its about what we think and what they think , its about what the real thing is & our thoughts about this matter are secondary.

Regards:


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## kugga

^^^ Exactly right they are proved wrong simply like any other being proved wrong .... now they have no right to play with our religion.... our religion is not a game that anyone can mold it according to his wishes and we'll remain silent....


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## Awesome

Black Blood said:


> No No Asim it is not about the perceptions , Deeni Matters are not solved on _Mantaq and Falsafa_ only , they must be supported by the Valid texts ie _The Holy Quran & the Sahee Hadith_.
> 
> Asim you might not be aware of what happened and how we proved them wrong before 1973 which lead to them being banished.
> 
> My home town in Pak was on the forefront of the Debates happened between Qadiyanis and Muslim Scholars they are called _The Mubbahlah_ and i have heard the recording myself of some of those debates in wich they were badly defeated.
> 
> Asim if something is proven wrong than it is wrong more like a normal court verdict supported by arguments and proofs.
> 
> We have proven that their faith is bases on _kufar_ if they have the capability to prove otherwise they are welcomed to do that.
> 
> I invite all of the qadiyanis here to come to debate with me on this matter & i will prove them wrong even though i am not a Mullah .
> 
> So stop thinking that its about what we think and what they think , its about what the real thing is & our thoughts about this matter are secondary.
> 
> Regards:



How can something of faith be proven wrong? If I say the first Muslims made a mistake and now Ahmedis are the correction to that mistake there is no way to prove it right or wrong. Its a matter of faith.

There is no question of proven wrong. Basically hum Pakistanio ne thoss jamai thi, koi proven right wrong nahi tha. Some would say rondhi maari thi Mullahs ne and the government acknowledged it.

The truth is such a law would never get passed today. It's like saying Islam bans Music so ban Music. Jiyo aur jeene doh.

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## sparklingway

Aasim I'd control my words further. Debate has entered the "no go area". While labels of "kafir" no longer affect me, I try not to piss of religiously devout people pointlessly. While I agree with you that there should be no state religion, no state enforcement of religion, no state definition of faith, no state definition of Muslim and equal rights for Ahmedis to preach and pray; I understand that such views will take a long, long time to be acknowledged by the masses. 

You can clearly see resistance from what we call the "Educated" class. How can you expect the general public who can be inflamed by the local maulvi to accept such new found "liberalism", especially when such a thing will most definitely be painted as "western agenda to de-islamize Pakistan".


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## kugga

Asim Aquil said:


> How can something of faith be proven wrong? If I say the first Muslims made a mistake and now Ahmedis are the correction to that mistake there is no way to prove it right or wrong. Its a matter of faith.
> 
> There is no question of proven wrong. Basically hum Pakistanio ne thoss jamai thi, koi proven right wrong nahi tha. Some would say rondhi maari thi Mullahs ne and the government acknowledged it.
> 
> The truth is such a law would never get passed today. It's like saying Islam bans Music so ban Music. Jiyo aur jeene doh.



No one is proving wrong there faith we are proving that there faith is not Islam and that can be proved.Go to any msulim not a mullah and ask him this question that is any new prophet allowed in Islam he will say no......
Go any where in the world to any muslim......
Look bro we have simple request to our ahmadi brothers that just don't say your self muslim when you believe in a new prophet..
and they have debates with muslims to prove themselves right.....

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## kugga

O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, He is the Apostle of God
and the Last in the line of Prophets (Khatam-un-Nabiyeen). And God is Aware of everything."
(Surah Al Ahzab 33.40)

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## Awesome

Apparently the law was to shut up a lot of insecure cry babies that is typical of the conservative religious in our country.

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## Kompromat

^^ Jitnay mounh utni baten.

If you watch this very video once again from 03:43 to 04:10.

Ahmadi leader Nasir said himself in the National Assembly that "yeh khirki khuli hoi hai or koi bhi Ummat se aa kay Nabi ban sakta hai".

They did that to themselves , and they truly deserved it.


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## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> *How can something of faith be proven wrong?* If I say the first Muslims made a mistake and now Ahmedis are the correction to that mistake there is no way to prove it right or wrong. Its a matter of faith.
> 
> There is no question of proven wrong. Basically hum Pakistanio ne thoss jamai thi, koi proven right wrong nahi tha. Some would say rondhi maari thi Mullahs ne and the government acknowledged it.
> 
> The truth is such a law would never get passed today. It's like saying Islam bans Music so ban Music. Jiyo aur jeene doh.



Dear asim i was not talking about faith but i was talking about their Claim to be Muslims while they deny the very Basic and second most important element of a Muslim faith.

we did prove that their claim of being a "Muslim" community is wrong !

We cant judge their faith but what we can do is to Keep ours in a real shape and not let Mushriks hide among us and do harm.

In Simple words , i dont really give a damn about what they believe but i do care about them trying to disguise once again in Islam.

regards:


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## simonyaqoob

*Mod Edit (so that you guys dont miss it

Post All news related to Domestic crime or Vigilante Justice that hit national News.

Do:
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- Provide your own opening narrative and reason to post this story with your leading comments for intended debate.
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All threads that are posted separately in the section will be moved or deleted (if they already exist here) the regular offenders will be contacted to follow the guidelines failing to do so will result in warnings and then infractions.

The purpose of this section is not to be a copy & paste report dump but a meaningful and thought provoking debate that is civil, constructive and presents practical solutions rather than rants and arguing for the sake of arguing.

the Guidelines for the Banned topics applies here too so ensure that your posting doesnt violate these rules and all other forum rules.
I have moved all related stories here) from this point forward follow thse guide lines

regards IB*











I will say NO,Christians are not enjoying equal rights in Pakistan. Give me your facts and I will give you mine

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## Kompromat

I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis where other 98% are being slaughtered , raped , robbed , blown up , murdered , pin pointedly murdered. 

When fire burns everyone gets effected , Christians are no exception , this is God's wrath on the people of Pakistan of which everyone has to take his/her fair share.

If anyone has some "takleef" in this country , he can migrate to some other "liberal" country.

Regards:

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## WHF

Aeronaut said:


> I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis where other 98% are being slaughtered , raped , robbed , blown up , murdered , pin pointedly murdered.
> 
> When fire burns everyone gets effected , Christians are no exception , this is God's wrath on the people of Pakistan of which everyone has to take his/her fair share.
> 
> *If anyone has some "takleef" in this country , he can migrate to some other "liberal" country.*
> 
> Regards:


 
Bad attitude... Pakistan was previously a hindu land and as minorities became majority it became muslim land and then came pakistan..and now after 60 years how can one forget history and say others *get out*..remember israel's story is similar to that of pakistan's minority became majority so do u mean to say that muslims should get out of israel if they r not happy there??


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## Najeeboollah

neither christians nor hindus.....both are targeted in pakistan for following different faith


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## Saifullah Sani

simonyaqoob said:


> I will say NO,Christians are not enjoying equal rights in Pakistan. Give me your facts and I will give you mine


 I have many Christian friends and they face problems like every common Pakistani

---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------

by the way what about Muslims facing problems in Europe

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## muse

Aeronaut said:


> I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis where other 98% are being slaughtered , raped , robbed , blown up , murdered , pin pointedly murdered.
> 
> When fire burns everyone gets effected , Christians are no exception , this is God's wrath on the people of Pakistan of which everyone has to take his/her fair share.
> 
> If anyone has some "takleef" in this country , he can migrate to some other "liberal" country.
> 
> Regards:


 

The 98% also have a choice in case of "takleef", don't they?? If Aeronaut is to be believed, it is only in a "liberal" dispensation that one can even hope for equality before the law -- and of course there is the usual God's wrath argument - listen up, Christians are not equal before the law in Pakistan - but Aeronaut has a point, nobody is equal to anybody before the law in Pakistan -- However, you must ask why this is -- and you must provide a truthful answer -- The reason there is no equality before the law is that Pakistani state cannot conceive of a position where all Pakistanis will be equal before the law - and the Pakistani state keeps to this position because vast majorities of Pakistanis are Muslims and they cannot and do not want any others to be equal before the law, the net result is that no one is equal before the law.

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## lem34

Is anybody getting justice in pakistan is prob more appropriete. All pakistanis immaterial of belief should be protected by state


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## Saifullah Sani

WHF said:


> Bad attitude... Pakistan was previously a hindu land and as minorities became majority it became muslim land and then came pakistan..and now after 60 years how can one forget history and say others *get out*..remember israel's story is similar to that of pakistan's minority became majority so do u mean to say that muslims should get out of israel if they r not happy there??


wrong Aryans are invaders.Aryans, or more specifically Indo-Aryans, make their first notable appearance in history around 2000-1500 BC as invaders of Northern India
Aryan &#8211; Aryans &#8211; All about Indo-aryans, their history to present day


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## muse

Saifullah Sani said:


> I have many *Christian friends *and they face problems like every common Pakistani
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------
> 
> *by the way what about Muslims facing problems in Europe*




Thank you for that great post - if ther are any readers who are confused as to why no one in Pakistan is equal to any other before the law, please refer to the post by Sanalluah Sani - when people are identified by their confession, then things become very complicated, after all, laws refer to and apply to CITIZENS, but this was not acceptable to a majority of Pakistanis who choose a confessional identity.

As for Muslims in Europe - Lets be mindful that these and millions behind them, risk their lives to get a chance to live in Europe and that in Europe, they are Citizens, those who do face problems do so by their political choice and by their unwillingness to integrate and give up living off the taxes of others.

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## simonyaqoob

Aeronaut said:


> I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis where other 98% are being slaughtered , raped , robbed , blown up , murdered , pin pointedly murdered.
> 
> When fire burns everyone gets effected , Christians are no exception , this is God's wrath on the people of Pakistan of which everyone has to take his/her fair share.
> 
> If anyone has some "takleef" in this country , he can migrate to some other "liberal" country.
> 
> Regards:


 
First of all, Christians are not just 2% in Pakistan. Christians are 10% to 15% in Pakistan but the government of Pakistan always hides this fact in "Mardum Shumari". You said "I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis" Well you think that Christians who are 2% (according to you) should not be given equal rights and those Christians who are being slaughtered, raped, robbed, blown up, murdered in Pakistan should be avoided. Its the duty of the government of Pakistan to give equal rights to Christians no matter if they are 20% or just a ONE Christian. 

BTW: Thats your hate speaking against Christians!

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## simonyaqoob

Saifullah Sani said:


> I have many Christian friends and they face problems like every common Pakistani
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------
> 
> by the way what about Muslims facing problems in Europe


 

I am with Muslims who are facing problems in Europe but trust me, Christians are facing more problems in Pakistan. Christians are even getting killed here and the Churches are being bombed. There were many incidents when whole Christian villages were burnt. The Gojra incident is the most recent one in which many Christians were burnt alive. My friend that does not happen to Muslims in Europe. Muslims are not getting killed nor their Mosques are being bombed. But on the other hand in Pakistan, Churches are being bombed, Christian villages are being burnt, Christians are getting killed, Christians are facing discrimination in jobs and schools and in every field. And most recently JUI - S called to ban Holy Bible from Pakistan. The petition to ban the Bible is already lodged in Lahore High Court and if JUI - S wins this case then The Bible will be snatched away from all Christians in Pakistan. And will be banned......


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## Icarus

Najeeboollah said:


> neither christians nor hindus.....both are targeted in pakistan for following different faith


 
Says the Afghan, we haven't shown more compassion to any other people in the world than you and yet still you are ungrateful.
No offence but You guys are the root of the Islamist problem in Pakistan, we expelled all Afghan refugees from Bajaur and it suddenly got peaceful, maybe if we applied that formula to the entire nation, the Hindus and Christians will be safe. It's a bargain !

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## crimemaster_gogo

simonyaqoob said:


> I am with Muslims who are facing problems in Europe but trust me, Christians are facing more problems in Pakistan. Christians are even getting killed here and the Churches are being bombed. There were many incidents when whole Christian villages were burnt. The Gojra incident is the most recent one in which many Christians were burnt alive. My friend that does not happen to Muslims in Europe. Muslims are not getting killed nor their Mosques are being bombed. But on the other hand in Pakistan, Churches are being bombed, Christian villages are being burnt, Christians are getting killed, Christians are facing discrimination in jobs and schools and in every field. And most recently JUI - S called to ban Holy Bible from Pakistan. The petition to ban the Bible is already lodged in Lahore High Court and if JUI - S wins this case then The Bible will be snatched away from all Christians in Pakistan. And will be banned......


 
your mistake, what are you doing in a country which was formed on the basis of RELIGION?idents when whole Christian villages were burnt. The Gojra incident is the most recent one in which many Christians were burnt alive. My friend that does not happen to Muslims in Europe. Muslims are not getting killed nor their Mosques are being bombed. But on the other hand in Pakistan, Churches are being bombed, Christian villages are being burnt, Christians are getting killed, Christians are facing discrimination in jobs and schools and in every field. And most recently JUI - S called to ban Holy Bible from Pakistan. The petition to ban the Bible is already lodged in Lahore High Court and if JUI - S wins this case then The Bible will be snatched away from all Christians in Pakistan. And will be banned......[/QUOTE]

your mistake, what are you doing in a country which was formed on the basis of RELIGION?


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## Icarus

simonyaqoob said:


> I am with Muslims who are facing problems in Europe but trust me, Christians are facing more problems in Pakistan.



The whole nation is facing problems, you guys are not alone. If there are any "Community Specific" problems, I request you to please list them.



> Christians are even getting killed here and the Churches are being bombed. There were many incidents when whole Christian villages were burnt.



Muslims are also being killed and Mosques/Shrines are also bombed much more regularly than Churches. Whole villages were also subject to "Cleansing" where all the men were killed. Again, thats a problem facing every Pakistani, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Jew.



> The Gojra incident is the most recent one in which many Christians were burnt alive.



A sad incident indeed, however, these incidents are not as common as you portray them to be. Kindly search for a similar incident before and after the Gojra incident. You will get my point.



> My friend that does not happen to Muslims in Europe. Muslims are not getting killed nor their Mosques are being bombed



On the contrary, Muslims do get killed and Mosques do get fire-bombed.



> But on the other hand in Pakistan, Churches are being bombed, Christian villages are being burnt, Christians are getting killed,



Like I said, that's a problem facing the whole country, how many of the 30 odd Hazara that were killed the day before Christians ?



> Christians are facing discrimination in jobs and schools and in every field.



Do you know General Knowell Israel ? He's one of the many(5000+) Christian Officers actively serving in Pakistan Army. As for education, the Christians have their own Educational Board ! What more could one ask for. Let's say for instance that you are being side-lined for being a Christian(as unlikely as it maybe), you can just register with the Board and they will accomodate you in a Christian/Missionary school WITH ALL EXPENSES BEING PAID BY GOP. 



> And most recently JUI - S called to ban Holy Bible from Pakistan. The petition to ban the Bible is already lodged in Lahore High Court and if JUI - S wins this case then The Bible will be snatched away from all Christians in Pakistan. And will be banned......


 
Won't happen. 
1) They have no case to support a call for the ban.
2) The constitution does not allow such a ban.
3) How much representation does the JUI have in Pakistan, I'm not even going to say anything. You tell me.

---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 PM ----------




crimemaster_gogo said:


> your mistake, what are you doing in a country which was formed on the basis of *region*?


 
Ummmmm...........And you live in a country formed on the basis of Fresh Water Reserves, possibly ?

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

The purpose that I understand to start a thread is to prove that Christians are being maltreated.

Well, if that is the case then that is not true. Christians have equal rights as we have.
If Christians are suffering in Pakistan from economic instability, terrorism etc. . so are we. There is nothing like singling out Christians and hurting them. .

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## humanfirst

Is there any law in pak constitution which discriminates to minority religions ?(Apart from the president/prime minister post being reserved for muslims)


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

humanfirst said:


> Is there any law in pak constitution which discriminates to minority religions ?(Apart from the president/prime minister post being reserved for muslims)


 

Not in my knowledge atleast. They study in the same colleges and universities as we do. They can apply for any job they wish. They can even go for CSS (Central Superior Services) and Armed Forces. . .

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## SQ8

The issue then, is not with Pakistan or its laws as such.
its with Pakistani Muslims who have taken their belief in their religion's "superiority" to their heads.
They dont even spare each other.
Everybody thinks they follow the right path..and the other's are Kafir.. and therefore below their social stature, ipso facto.. their rights matter not when it comes to "gods will"..

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## lem34

Santro said:


> The issue then, is not with Pakistan or its laws as such.
> its with Pakistani Muslims who have taken their belief in their religion's "superiority" to their heads.


 
Its the pakistani muslims who have the power to enforce the law but will not for whatever reason


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## Kompromat

muse said:


> The 98% also have a choice in case of "takleef", don't they?? If Aeronaut is to be believed, it is only in a "liberal" dispensation that one can even hope for equality before the law -- and of course there is the usual God's wrath argument - listen up, Christians are not equal before the law in Pakistan - but Aeronaut has a point, nobody is equal to anybody before the law in Pakistan -- However, you must ask why this is -- and you must provide a truthful answer -- The reason there is no equality before the law is that Pakistani state cannot conceive of a position where all Pakistanis will be equal before the law - and the Pakistani state keeps to this position because vast majorities of Pakistanis are Muslims and they cannot and do not want any others to be equal before the law, the net result is that no one is equal before the law.


 
I understand what you are saying , but try to understand what i have said in a less rigid way. I am just p1ssed off at the general situation in Pakistan like everyone out here. I am frustrated , angry , fired up , disappointed and it gets even worse and i get this massive lump in my throat when some goof turns up , pulls his pants up , points his finger at Pakistan and goes "my rights are being violated".

Hang on you scum ! - everyone is getting screwed out here , its like a the wild west , where no one knows who is killing who and why. I am sorry but if one has any issue with being in Pakistan and not taking his/her fair part of the crap , he can **** off somewhere else.

I don't know what to write to you , i am just a little bit too frustrated -- i would love to live in a Pakistan which is in world's top 5 economies , has a strong judiciary , military , civil sector , industry and where everyone loves everyone.

But that is not the case unfortunately , why don't you tell these pussycat cowardly d1ckheads that every nation out there that we aspire to be has had their part of turmoil. US - UK - Germans - Japan which one hasn't had violence and killing ? 

How can we go and guard the 2% Christian population's doors when my own bloody house is on fire ? -- If i was safe and the Christian community was the only community being marginalized and prosecuted and not everyone else , then i would be the first one out to take my AK and stand guard at my Christian neighbor's door and defend it.


I don't wanna get into the terms like "Liberals" and "God's wrath" as you and i have different views , we would never agree on them. So lets keep it to rather political side of the argument.

Cheers.

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## Icarus

guest11 said:


> I think he meant to say that Pakistani christians should suffer for the crimes of other christians that reside 5000 kms away.


 
I think he should be allowed to clarify his own stance, thank you very much.

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## Elmo

*Stick to the topic at hand. Any more off topic posts, and penalties will follow.*

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## guest11

Kakgeta said:


> I think he should be allowed to clarify his own stance, thank you very much.


 Offcourse, but I think you guys are going overboard just for sake of "saving face" on an internet forum. I sincerely hope that you don't actually believe that minorities are not suffering in Pakistan. For those who are going to lecture me on the "*genocide of minorities*" in India, save your breath.


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## Icarus

guest11 said:


> Offcourse, but I think you guys are going overboard just for sake of "saving face" on an internet forum. I sincerely hope that you don't actually believe that minorities are not suffering in Pakistan. For those who are going to lecture me on the "*genocide of minorities*" in India, save your breath.


 
Being a minority is not easy wherever you are. I'm not saying that Pakistani minorities are living in a utopian world where nothing bad ever happens, what I am trying to imply is that things are not as bad as they are portrayed or how bad the OP says them to be. 
Secondly, if you are not prepared to entertain a counter-argument then entering an argument in the first place is not a very good idea.


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## TruthSeeker

Do Pakistani blasphemy laws apply equally to all faiths? That is, if a person proclaims that Jesus was not the Son of God and tears pages from the Bible and spits on them, etc., can Christians bring blasphemy charges against that person?

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## guest11

Kakgeta said:


> Being a minority is not easy wherever you are. I'm not saying that Pakistani minorities are living in a utopian world where nothing bad ever happens, what I am trying to imply is that things are not as bad as they are portrayed or how bad the OP says them to be.
> Secondly, if you are not prepared to entertain a counter-argument then entering an argument in the first place is not a very good idea.


 
Counter argument, definitely a yes but dragging India in the internal matters of Pakistan, no.

Agreed, what should be the standard when judging the quality of life of minorities in a nation. India surely does not qualify since we have problems of our own but in the case of Pakistan, constitution itself is biased for minorities. What is your take on this?


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## DV RULES

simonyaqoob said:


> I will say NO,Christians are not enjoying equal rights in Pakistan. Give me your facts and I will give you mine




Dudy, you are wrong. Christians have equal rights and all necessary constitutional freedom according to they can live, work, freedom of expression, religious freedom, social equality etc. If you start this thread in light of some misshapen then let me say some religious fractions of Islam also suffered with particular ideological conflicts. Recent sectarian target killing doesnt means that Shiaa community stand and call for rights, blast in Datta darbar Lahore doesnt means that they also should stand for rights. Dirty minded people are everywhere in every community, religion, religious sectors and ethnic groups so need to remove them. You have to think positively because no one called Christians NEECH, Shudar in Pakistan as compared to India. Christianity is very peaceful religion as we respect Christianity. People are different and they behave with fellows or others in different ways while not only non Muslims are hurt by their behavior but Muslims too so in common practice we are feeling no difference with Christians while living in one community. Yes respect for each religion should be priority.

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## RockyX

Every year, Minority population is decreasing. In 1947, It was 30% and now 2%. Most likely minorities will disappear after few years. 99.9% Islam. I think, that is why Islamic Pakistan was formed. 

No Minority, No complain !!


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## DV RULES

Aeronaut said:


> I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis where other 98% are being slaughtered , raped , robbed , blown up , murdered , pin pointedly murdered.
> 
> When fire burns everyone gets effected , Christians are no exception , this is God's wrath on the people of Pakistan of which everyone has to take his/her fair share.
> 
> If anyone has some "takleef" in this country , he can migrate to some other "liberal" country.
> 
> Regards:



Because of social justice anybody can come out of his senses but that's not matter of whole community. I think we have to satisfy these individuals rather than show path of any other liberal country. After all they citizens of Pakistan influenced by propaganda over minority situation in Pakistan.


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## guest11

TruthSeeker said:


> Do Pakistani blasphemy laws apply equally to all faiths? That is, if a person proclaims that Jesus was not the Son of God and tears pages from the Bible and spits on them, etc., can Christians bring blasphemy charges against that person?


 
No they can't, hence the part Islamic in the Islamic republic of Pakistan. The funny thing about blasphemy law is that during the trial of blasphemer, jury has to assume what he said as his words could not be repeated. So, you can be hanged on the mere assumption of what you said.


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## Icarus

TruthSeeker said:


> Do Pakistani blasphemy laws apply equally to all faiths? That is, if a person proclaims that Jesus was not the Son of God and tears pages from the Bible and spits on them, etc., can Christians bring blasphemy charges against that person?


 
The Blasphemy laws do not apply in such a situation however a case can be registered on the grounds of:
Extreme Provocation
Gross Disregard of Social Norms 
Criminal Slander

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## DV RULES

WHF said:


> Bad attitude... Pakistan was previously a hindu land and as minorities became majority it became muslim land and then came pakistan..and now after 60 years how can one forget history and say others *get out*..remember israel's story is similar to that of pakistan's minority became majority so do u mean to say that muslims should get out of israel if they r not happy there??


 

You people should leave this misunderstanding regarding Hindustan, this land didn't get name from Hindu but Hinduism got name from this land.

Proceeding to topic; nobody saying get out to minorities from this peaceful society. They are living quite well as other.


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## Icarus

guest11 said:


> Counter argument, definitely a yes but dragging India in the internal matters of Pakistan, no.
> 
> Agreed, what should be the standard when judging the quality of life of minorities in a nation. India surely does not qualify since we have problems of our own but in the case of Pakistan, constitution itself is biased for minorities. What is your take on this?


 
In my opinion except the fact that a non-muslim cannot be the PM or President of Pakistan, there is no bias against minorities in the constitution. I am personally against that clause for my own reasons but until the whole nation adopts a stance of opposition to this clause, it cannot be removed.

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------




guest11 said:


> No they can't, hence the part Islamic in the Islamic republic of Pakistan. The funny thing about blasphemy law is that during the trial of blasphemer, jury has to assume what he said as his words could not be repeated. So, you can be hanged on the mere assumption of what you said.


 
Blasphemy laws apply to all citizens, even muslims have been tried and found guilty on charges preswed based on Blasphemy laws. Please do a bit of research before trolling.

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## DV RULES

simonyaqoob said:


> First of all, Christians are not just 2% in Pakistan. Christians are 10% to 15% in Pakistan but the government of Pakistan always hides this fact in "Mardum Shumari". You said "I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis" Well you think that Christians who are 2% (according to you) should not be given equal rights and those Christians who are being slaughtered, raped, robbed, blown up, murdered in Pakistan should be avoided. Its the duty of the government of Pakistan to give equal rights to Christians no matter if they are 20% or just a ONE Christian.
> 
> BTW: Thats your hate speaking against Christians!


 

Being Pakistani citizen, its responsibility of Pakistani government to provide justice & equal rights to all not important you are Christian or Muslim.

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## guest11

Kakgeta said:


> In my opinion except the fact that a non-muslim cannot be the PM or President of Pakistan, there is no bias against minorities in the constitution. I am personally against that clause for my own reasons but until the whole nation adopts a stance of opposition to this clause, it cannot be removed.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Blasphemy laws apply to all citizens, even muslims have been tried and found guilty on charges preswed based on Blasphemy laws. Please do a bit of research before trolling.


 
Sir ( I am referring you as sir since you come with a black Military Professional tag ), it's not just about the post of PM or Pres., it is about the fact that a non Muslim cannot present the budget for Punjab or the lack of non muslim leaders. Just for the sake of example, my city constitutes 40% muslim population yet 5 of the 6 six leaders *elected* are Hindu defeating 3 Muslim leaders. 

Can jury hear the exact words of blasphemy during the trial? Again, not trolling.

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## DV RULES

simonyaqoob said:


> I am with Muslims who are facing problems in Europe but trust me, Christians are facing more problems in Pakistan. Christians are even getting killed here and the Churches are being bombed. There were many incidents when whole Christian villages were burnt. The Gojra incident is the most recent one in which many Christians were burnt alive. My friend that does not happen to Muslims in Europe. Muslims are not getting killed nor their Mosques are being bombed. But on the other hand in Pakistan, Churches are being bombed, Christian villages are being burnt, Christians are getting killed, Christians are facing discrimination in jobs and schools and in every field. And most recently JUI - S called to ban Holy Bible from Pakistan. The petition to ban the Bible is already lodged in Lahore High Court and if JUI - S wins this case then The Bible will be snatched away from all Christians in Pakistan. And will be banned......





Give examples except Gojra incident?
Don't worry Bible will not be banned in Pakistan. According to constitution it comes against religious freedom.


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## Icarus

guest11 said:


> Sir ( I am referring you as sir since you come with a black Military Professional tag ), it's not just about the post of PM or Pres., it is about the fact that a non Muslim cannot present the budget for Punjab or the lack of non muslim leaders. Just for the sake of example, my city constitutes 40% muslim population yet 5 of the 6 six leaders *elected* are Hindu defeating 3 Muslim leaders.
> 
> Can jury hear the exact words of blasphemy during the trial? Again, not trolling.


 
Firstly, I would like to clarify that I am a simple "Professional" not a "Military Professional". I am an Analyst, not a military-man.
Secondly, the budget of Punjab was presented by Kamran Micheal, who is a Christian. As far as the lack of non-muslim leaders is concerned, well there is a lack of leadership as a whole. The political landscape is dominated by the same few names that take turns in coming to power. There is no leadership regardless of faith. 
Lastly, the words of blasphemy are narrated to the Jury, it is true however that they cannot be repeated in first person. This applies to muslim and non-muslim alike.

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## Martian

I would highlight one discrimination faced by non-Mulsim Pakistanis:

Muslim Pakistanis can select only one representative for National Assembly.

Non- Muslim Pakistanis have to cast their vote twice to select one representative for reserved seat and other vote for representative on general seat.

Just like Muslim voters there should be no double voting for non-Muslim citizens.

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## lem34

TruthSeeker said:


> Do Pakistani blasphemy laws apply equally to all faiths? That is, if a person proclaims that Jesus was not the Son of God and tears pages from the Bible and spits on them, etc., can Christians bring blasphemy charges against that person?



not sure but i hope so and want to see consistancy applied to all pakistanis immaterial of personal beliefs


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## guest11

Kakgeta said:


> Firstly, I would like to clarify that I am a simple "Professional" not a "Military Professional". I am an Analyst, not a military-man.
> Secondly, the budget of Punjab was presented by Kamran Micheal, who is a Christian. As far as the lack of non-muslim leaders is concerned, well there is a lack of leadership as a whole. The political landscape is dominated by the same few names that take turns in coming to power. There is no leadership regardless of faith.
> Lastly, the words of blasphemy are narrated to the Jury, it is true however that they cannot be repeated in first person. This applies to muslim and non-muslim alike.


 
Thank you for your insights. 

1st non-Muslim to present PA budget | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

I guess my data was a bit outdated in this regard.

Can you provide me some evidences or links for the blasphemy narration scenario?

And I don't have anything to say about the Pakistan's minority leadership due to my lack of knowledge about Pakistani politics.


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## Saifullah Sani

TruthSeeker said:


> Do Pakistani blasphemy laws apply equally to all faiths? That is, if a person proclaims that Jesus was not the Son of God and tears pages from the Bible and spits on them, etc., can Christians bring blasphemy charges against that person?


every one has right to disagree but 

*word blasphemy means *

A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
blasphemy - definition of blasphemy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


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## waz

How can the bible be banned when it is an article of faith for a Muslim to believe in the bible? You can't be Muslim if you don't believe in the OT and the gospels.

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## Icarus

guest11 said:


> Thank you for your insights.
> 
> 1st non-Muslim to present PA budget | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online
> 
> I guess my data was a bit outdated in this regard.
> 
> Can you provide me some evidences or links for the blasphemy narration scenario?
> 
> And I don't have anything to say about the Pakistan's minority leadership due to my lack of knowledge about Pakistani politics.


 
I am not sure if I can find a source for this but I do know this from personal experience as a Somali student of mine in 2004 made some remarks during a presentation that the Jamiat junkies took as being blasphemous and registered a case against him. I attended his trail and testified in his favour. There I heard the prosecution and defence present their version of the stories to the court.


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## Rafael

Yes the situation is bad but all is not lost!

Watch this video of a christian retired army officer who commanded the most important position of Pakistan army. This video is only 1 day old.

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## guest11

Kakgeta said:


> I am not sure if I can find a source for this but I do know this from personal experience as a Somali student of mine in 2004 made some remarks during a presentation that the Jamiat junkies took as being blasphemous and registered a case against him. I attended his trail and testified in his favour. There I heard the prosecution and defence present their version of the stories to the court.



A link would have been better but your personal account works fine too. Did they repeated the exact same words of the Somali student, if yes then I am glad that some of my misconceptions are cleared. But still, it does not justify the barbarian rule of hanging a person for he/she failed to use the right words. I hope you agree on this one.

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## simonyaqoob

crimemaster_gogo said:


> your mistake, what are you doing in a country which was formed on the basis of RELIGION?


 
your mistake, what are you doing in a country which was formed on the basis of RELIGION?

Its not a Mistake...my ancestors were Muslim and they were living in Faislabad (a City of Punjab in Pakistan) for like 1000 years. At that time there was no Pakistan....We had lots of land in our village....but then our grandfather converted from Islam to Christianity when he was 16 years old and that was the time when he was stripped off from all his land and wealth and his family never saw him again....So we are here for so long....why should we leave this place? this place changed a lot....Its not a mistake....its called fate....fate made us born in this country. So we are not outsiders...and we must have equal rights.


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## simonyaqoob

> The whole nation is facing problems, you guys are not alone. If there are any "Community Specific" problems, I request you to please list them.



Yeah sure, here are "specific" problems faced by Christians in Pakistan.

1. Christians are facing discrimination in Schools, Colleges, Universities, jobs (both private and government).
2. Christians are called with some very disgraceful names like "chooray" or "American Agents".
3. Christians cannot become Prime Minister or President of Pakistan.
4. Christians cannot become head of any armed force of Pakistan.
5. There is a blasphemy law which is only for Muslims and Christians are trapped in this case falsely.
6. Our all Christian school were nationalized means they were all taken over by the government of Pakistan and the government is still not giving them back to us. 
7. Whenever Christians are making a new Church they always face problems because people take away the construction material and give threats to the workers not to work for the church. 
8. Many Churches are bombed and are burnt in Pakistan since 1947.
9. Many Christian villages are burnt in Pakistan since 1947....plus Christians who are living in Muslim majority villages are being kicked out so that the villages become 100% Muslim. 

And the list can go on forever but I got other answers to give 




> A sad incident indeed, however, these incidents are not as common as you portray them to be. Kindly search for a similar incident before and after the Gojra incident. You will get my point.



These incidents are very common in Pakistan...you said that you want to know about a similar incident well here they are....In Sangla Hill, It was the blasphemy charge against Yousaf Masih (just one man) that ignited the rage of a horde of around 2,000 Muslims on 12 November. The mob attacked, destroyed and razed three Christian churches, a convent, two Catholic schools, the homes of a Protestant pastor and a Catholic parish priest, a girls' hostel and the homes of some Christians. That was 2006 or 2005.

Then there is another incident....there is a village in Multan called "Shanti Nagar" the whole Village was burnt by Muslims in 1995 or 1996. And the people of Shanti Nagar are still receiving threats from their neighbour Muslim villages in which they are saying that they can do again what they did many years ago. 

Here is another one....60- homes of Christians set on fire by Muslim attackers in village Korian in district Toba Tek, Punjab ( 25 - miles south of Faisalabad ) at 9- P.M. on Thursday, July 30, 2009.

Again there are many incidents like the above mentioned but I got other answers to give!




> Do you know General Knowell Israel ? He's one of the many(5000+) Christian Officers actively serving in Pakistan Army. As for education, the Christians have their own Educational Board ! What more could one ask for. Let's say for instance that you are being side-lined for being a Christian(as unlikely as it maybe), you can just register with the Board and they will accomodate you in a Christian/Missionary school WITH ALL EXPENSES BEING PAID BY GOP.



I dont know General Knowell Israel but I do know about *Cecil Chaudhry* he is a veteran fighter pilot and served in Pakistan Air Force. As a Flight Lieutenant, he fought in the Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 and later, as a Squadron Leader, in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. During the 1965 war, Chaudhry and three other pilots, under the leadership of Wing Commander Anwar Shamim, destroyed the Amritsar Radar Station in a difficult attack. He was awarded the Sitara-e-Jurat (Star of Courage) for his actions during that mission. And you know what happened to him later? After being denied promotion because of his religion (Christianity), he retired from the air force as a Group Captain in July 1986. That happened to a war hero....just because he is a Christian!

And about the education board yes we got our own education board but all our Missionary schools were taken over by the government of Pakistan in 1970s and they are still not given back to us!




> Won't happen.
> 1) They have no case to support a call for the ban.
> 2) The constitution does not allow such a ban.
> 3) How much representation does the JUI have in Pakistan, I'm not even going to say anything. You tell me.



Maybe that wont happen but still someone tried to ban the Bible....and in the press conference that person from JUI - S used disgusting words to describe The Bible....Those words were so disgusting I cant even write them here. You know when that so called Pastor from USA whose name is Terry Jones did that shameful act.....he was condemned by all Christians here in Pakistan....all Churches condemned him....and to be honest....we don't even consider him a pastor because a pastor cannot do such thing...we hate him that much. But what happened when Maulana Abdul Rauf Farooqi of JUI - S used blasphemous and disgusting words to describe The Bible? what happened when he filed a petition to ban the Bible? NOTHING...no one condemned his actions! That means Pakistan and the people living in Pakistan wants to ban the Bible. And JUI - S may not have much representation in Pakistan but they are still a Political Party and are very strong plus they got lots of supporters...you know it well.


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## simonyaqoob

RockyX said:


> Every year, Minority population is decreasing. In 1947, It was 30% and now 2%. Most likely minorities will disappear after few years. 99.9% Islam. I think, that is why Islamic Pakistan was formed.
> 
> No Minority, No complain !!


 
Minorities are decreasing in papers only...actually minorities are increasing with the rest of the population of Pakistan. about 3 years ago Pakistan had a population of 16 Carores and now its 18 Carore. That means minorities are increasing too!


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## simonyaqoob

Kakgeta said:


> The Blasphemy laws do not apply in such a situation however a case can be registered on the grounds of:
> Extreme Provocation
> Gross Disregard of Social Norms
> Criminal Slander


 

So you think thats equality? Now people here are saying that Christians just cant become Prime Minister/President.....and they cant lodge a blasphemy charge if someone disrespects Christianity somehow....but still they got equal rights....lol...nice joke!


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## simonyaqoob

DV RULES said:


> Give examples except Gojra incident?


 

I have already given the examples...please review my previous posts


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## SMC

RockyX said:


> Every year, Minority population is decreasing. In 1947, It was 30% and now 2%. Most likely minorities will disappear after few years. 99.9% Islam. I think, that is why Islamic Pakistan was formed.
> 
> No Minority, No complain !!


 

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? I'd suggest that you don't blow hot air out your butthole if you have no idea what you're talking about.

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## Icarus

simonyaqoob said:


> 1. Christians are facing discrimination in Schools, Colleges, Universities, jobs (both private and government).



Source please ?



> 2. Christians are called with some very disgraceful names like "chooray" or "American Agents".



Very true and sad indeed. Won't argue with that but this has to do more with illiteracy than hatred for minorities. How many teachers or officers have you seen referring to Christians with such unkind words ?



> 3. Christians cannot become Prime Minister or President of Pakistan.



Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, that is like asking why a muslim cannot to elected as Pope. He might be very pious and upright but in the end, he's not a Christian. About the same logic applies here however, I must stress that I support the abolishment of this clause.



> 4. Christians cannot become head of any armed force of Pakistan.



Incorrect, now your either loading things or your sources are flawed. The Armed Forces are completely secular and there is no rule barring an Officer from any religious group from becoming the Head of the Armed forces. As I said before General Knowell Israel is an active service General and a Christian. I also know a Brigadier by the name of Williams. These are just the people I know in the top ranks. There are many more in the Armed forces.



> 5. There is a blasphemy law which is only for Muslims and Christians are trapped in this case falsely.



Again I must stress on making arguments based on facts and not hear-say. The blasphemy laws apply to Muslims and Non-muslims alike. Muslims too have been prosecuted under the blasphemy laws.



> 6. Our all Christian school were nationalized means they were all taken over by the government of Pakistan and the government is still not giving them back to us.



Source ? Last I checked the convents were being run by the Pakistan Church and all the faculty were Nuns. The Cathedral Schools in Lahore are directly under the Arch-Bishop. All the students study on 100% Scholarships courtesy of the GoP. That doesn't sound too cruel to me.



> 7. Whenever Christians are making a new Church they always face problems because people take away the construction material and give threats to the workers not to work for the church.



Always ? Are you sure ? The Christian Town is right next to my ancestral home in Faisalabad and the Church there was built with gracious grants and donations from muslim businessmen as a goodwill gesture. Seeing as you are from Lahore, I find it hard to believe you are unaware of this.



> 8. Many Churches are bombed and are burnt in Pakistan since 1947.



Very sad, but so has been the case with mosques quite often. Terrorists and Extremists have no religion. 



> 9. Many Christian villages are burnt in Pakistan since 1947....plus Christians who are living in Muslim majority villages are being kicked out so that the villages become 100% Muslim.



Source ?



> These incidents are very common in Pakistan...you said that you want to know about a similar incident well here they are....In Sangla Hill, It was the blasphemy charge against Yousaf Masih (just one man) that ignited the rage of a horde of around 2,000 Muslims on 12 November. The mob attacked, destroyed and razed three Christian churches, a convent, two Catholic schools, the homes of a Protestant pastor and a Catholic parish priest, a girls' hostel and the homes of some Christians. That was 2006 or 2005.



Source for the damages ? And if you remember the whole story. Yousaf Masih was acquitted of all charges by a muslim judge and his case was fought by Asma Jahangir I believe, a muslim lawyer without any fee. 



> Then there is another incident....there is a village in Multan called "Shanti Nagar" the whole Village was burnt by Muslims in 1995 or 1996. And the people of Shanti Nagar are still receiving threats from their neighbour Muslim villages in which they are saying that they can do again what they did many years ago.



Sad indeed however, I would like to remind you that the entire reconstruction process was paid for and overseen by the GoP.



> Here is another one....60- homes of Christians set on fire by Muslim attackers in village Korian in district Toba Tek, Punjab ( 25 - miles south of Faisalabad ) at 9- P.M. on Thursday, July 30, 2009


.

The stated incidents are very worrisome however I would like for you to see the freaquency of those incidents and assess the loss of life. You will find that:
1) Such incidents occured about 0.85 times per year since independence(as per my research) and loss of life is a rare factor.
2) In all the incidents, the compensation was arranged for by muslims as well. There are good and bad in all segments of society. Just depends on the prism from which you choose to look at it.




> I dont know General Knowell Israel but I do know about *Cecil Chaudhry* he is a veteran fighter pilot and served in Pakistan Air Force. As a Flight Lieutenant, he fought in the Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 and later, as a Squadron Leader, in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. During the 1965 war, Chaudhry and three other pilots, under the leadership of Wing Commander Anwar Shamim, destroyed the Amritsar Radar Station in a difficult attack. He was awarded the Sitara-e-Jurat (Star of Courage) for his actions during that mission. And you know what happened to him later? After being denied promotion because of his religion (Christianity), he retired from the air force as a Group Captain in July 1986. That happened to a war hero....just because he is a Christian!



This is absolutely wrong. This piece of propaganda was crafted by some NGO for their own motives. If Cecil Chaudhry never said this was the reason for his retirement then how did some random NGO come to know about it ?



> And about the education board yes we got our own education board but all our Missionary schools were taken over by the government of Pakistan in 1970s and they are still not given back to us!



Last I checked, Missionary Schools were the concern of Pakistani Church. 




> Maybe that wont happen but still someone tried to ban the Bible....and in the press conference that person from JUI - S used disgusting words to describe The Bible....Those words were so disgusting I cant even write them here. You know when that so called Pastor from USA whose name is Terry Jones did that shameful act.....he was condemned by all Christians here in Pakistan....all Churches condemned him....and to be honest....we don't even consider him a pastor because a pastor cannot do such thing...we hate him that much. But what happened when Maulana Abdul Rauf Farooqi of JUI - S used blasphemous and disgusting words to describe The Bible? what happened when he filed a petition to ban the Bible? NOTHING...no one condemned his actions! That means Pakistan and the people living in Pakistan wants to ban the Bible. And JUI - S may not have much representation in Pakistan but they are still a Political Party and are very strong plus they got lots of supporters...you know it well.


 
Firstly, the reason this did not draw kuch condemnation was probably because no one heard of it. I'll be honest with you I watch and read my news religiously and I never heard of it. 
Secondly, JUI-S does not have "many" supporters, it's pretty much a farce.
Lastly, there have been moves to ban the Quran across the world. The world is no short of bigots however. There is a difference between bigotry of a person/organization and bigotry of an entire society.

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 PM ----------




simonyaqoob said:


> So you think thats equality? Now people here are saying that Christians just cant become Prime Minister/President.....and they cant lodge a blasphemy charge if someone disrespects Christianity somehow....but still they got equal rights....lol...nice joke!



I already stated that they can lodge a complaint just not under the blasphemy laws. Do European Blasphemy laws allow muslims to report disrespect for Islam ? You'll get your answer, just google it.

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## Karachiite

simonyaqoob said:


> First of all, Christians are not just 2% in Pakistan. Christians are 10% to 15% in Pakistan but the government of Pakistan always hides this fact in "Mardum Shumari". You said "I don't know what the heck is wrong with people who make a fuss about 2% Pakistanis" Well you think that Christians who are 2% (according to you) should not be given equal rights and those Christians who are being slaughtered, raped, robbed, blown up, murdered in Pakistan should be avoided. Its the duty of the government of Pakistan to give equal rights to Christians no matter if they are 20% or just a ONE Christian.
> 
> BTW: Thats your hate speaking against Christians!



I fully understand that Christians or any other minority don't have may rights in Pakistan. FFS we can't even become PM or President. Although I'm Agnostic, my mothers side are Pakistani Christian and even my first name is a "Christian" name. I know the discrimination your talking about but your exaggerating too much now. 
Christians according to a few sources are 20 million. Pakistani Government not only hides the actual figures of religious minorities but also ethnic minorities like Urdu Speakers. Its purely political.
No Christian is being killed everyday because of their religion in Pakistan. Don't know if any have been blown up. Again I can't speak for all of Pakistan but I do know that this doesn't happen in Karachi and maybe even Lahore. The less educated areas are more prone to religious violence and discrimination. 

Anyways man like you I will never ever forget the Gojra incident. And next elections please make the right choice by voting for a secular party. Its not PML-N or PPP, it not PTI its MQM. They are the only ones raising their voices against religious discrimination and are the ones who want Jinnah's Secular Pakistan.

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## thegreensprite

*They must abide by our Laws and stop acting against the state*

What law is that? There is no law... it's a hellhole.

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------




Aeronaut said:


> Dear asim i was not talking about faith but i was talking about their Claim to be Muslims while they deny the very Basic and second most important element of a Muslim faith.
> 
> we did prove that their claim of being a "Muslim" community is wrong !
> 
> We cant judge their faith but what we can do is to Keep ours in a real shape and not let Mushriks hide among us and do harm.
> 
> In Simple words , i dont really give a damn about what they believe but i do care about them trying to disguise once again in Islam.
> 
> regards:



Fortunately a true Muslim doesn't have to prove anything to Man to be close to Allah. Pakistanis are some of the worst creatures on this earth.. who cares who they label kafir...


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## Roybot

> Mod Edit (so that you guys dont miss it
> 
> Post All news related to Domestic crime or Vigilante Justice that hit national News.
> 
> Do:
> - provide links and source to the story.
> - Provide your own opening narrative and reason to post this story with your leading comments for intended debate.
> - Check forum policy about postings
> - For long story, provide summary of the report and part-Quote the opening paragraph (of source)and let the reader decide if he wants to read the entire contents by clicking on link.
> 
> Don&#8217;t:
> - Post grotesque and graphic (offensive) imagery and videos.
> - Post Banned topics & related stories
> - Post hate & terrorism supporting propaganda.
> - Spam thread and this section with dated & obscure material.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All threads that are posted separately in the section will be moved or deleted (if they already exist here) the regular offenders will be contacted to follow the guidelines failing to do so will result in warnings and then infractions.
> 
> The purpose of this section is not to be a copy & paste report dump but a meaningful and thought provoking debate that is civil, constructive and presents practical solutions rather than rants and arguing for the sake of arguing.
> 
> the Guidelines for the Banned topics applies here too so ensure that your posting doesnt violate these rules and all other forum rules.
> I have moved all related stories here) from this point forward follow thse guide lines
> 
> regards IB
> 
> ====
> I will take exception to the below post as it was posted before I made this sticky and moved all related stories here.







> *KARACHI: Four bodies have been recovered in various areas of Karachi as the death toll of killings in the city in the past 24 hours rises to 10, DawnNews reported on Tuesday.
> *
> A body of a victim with gunshot wounds was recovered near Shahrah-e-Faial while another body showing marks of torture was recovered by the Nazimabad police in a graveyard.
> 
> Two other bodies were recovered in Surjani Town. According to the MLO at the Abbasi Shaheed Hospital, one of the victims was killed due to a head wound while the other was strangled to death.
> 
> On Monday, six bodies were recovered in various parts of the city including North Nazimabad, Kemari and Sohrab Goth.



Ten killed in Karachi violence in past 24 hours | Metropolitan | DAWN.COM


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## SQ8

Well.. ill be going there on friday.. home sweet home..


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## Major vikram batra

Can anyone tell me, why people are killing each other?


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## newdelhinsa

Not required.............


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## Windjammer

newdelhinsa said:


> Muslims killed by Muslims do not entertain comments.



*Yea, an ideal case. !!*


> Number 73,456 was Mohammad Ayub up until a few days ago. Born in 1951, Ayub was a chowkidar by profession. He was on his way home when he fell sick, sat down by the side of a road and passed away. The police found his body and sent it to the Edhi morgue. No one came for him and he was buried here. His younger brother, having not talked to him for a few days, finally made the journey down from Muzzafarabad to Karachi. Mohammad Ayub, now has a pukka tombstone


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## Roybot

The title of the thread is not right,

Where the dead have no name | | DAWN.COM


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## newdelhinsa

^^Yea you are right i take my words back.


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## mitth

this is a wrong.................


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## Jango

And what is the purpose of this thread?

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## Soumitra

*Judge who convicted Taseer's assassin seeks refuge in S Arabia*

LAHORE: The Pakistani judge who gave the death sentence to Governor Salmaan Taseer's self-confessed assassin has sought refuge in Saudi Arabia with his family after receiving death threats from religious extremists. 

Anti-terrorism court Judge Pervez Ali Shah, who awarded the death sentence to Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri on October 1, had gone on leave after a group of lawyers ransacked his courtroom and several hardline religious groups offered a bounty to anyone who killed him. 

"The death threats have forced Shah to leave Pakistan along with his family for Saudi Arabia," Saiful Malook, who served as special prosecutor during Qadri's trial, said. 

Sensing the gravity of the situation, the government had arranged for lodging Shah and his family in Saudi Arabia, Malook said. 

*"Though security was provided to the judge and his family, the government, acting on reports from intelligence agencies, opted to send him abroad," he said. *

There were several reports that extremist elements in religious parties had offered a bounty for anyone who killed the judge. 

"Yes, there were such reports," Malook said. Malook further said he too had been receiving threats and urged the government to provide him foolproof security. 

"The government has deployed only two policemen for my security, which by all means is not adequate," he said. 

In his verdict against Qadri, Shah had said: "No one can be given the license to kill anyone in any condition, therefore, the killer cannot be pardoned as he has committed a heinous crime."

Judge who convicted Taseer's assassin seeks refuge in S Arabia - The Times of India


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## bubble123

wow just wow another asylum seeker.

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## Raza88

Shameful that our governments both provincial and federal fail to provide security to a man that has upheld the law....
On the other hand he chose the wrong country as it might turn out to be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire =D

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## VCheng

Next stop: A friendly 711 "management: career in Canada!

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## Irfan Baloch

well the article itself says enough and doesnt leave much to add
closing the thread


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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> Next stop: A friendly 711 "management: career in Canada!



now that was harsh

you just had to say it didnt you

nasty nasty man

and you missed the obvious, the two police gaurds that are detailed to protect him might be the ones he has to be careful of.
ref the Police bodygaurd who killed Suleman Taseer.

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## Trucker

it was desired to happen


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## Perceptron

Sorry state of affairs where these religious fundoos have run riot ; Is there no voice of sanity in Pakistan remaining ?


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## Roybot

> *QUETTA: Provincial Minister for Minority Jay Parkash Lal has expressed his strong resentment over rampant increase in kidnapping of Hindus in Balochistan.*
> 
> He said this during the Balochistan Assembly proceeding on Tuesday. He took the floor on a point of order and said a Hindu trader had been kidnapped from Quetta whose whereabouts are not known.Jawar Lal a trader of Wadh area in Khuzdar was kidnapped about 15 months ago and still had not been recovered, he informed the House.
> 
> Parkash Lal said that minorities have been subjected to kidnapping for ransom for the past several years but no one is paying heed to this serious issue.We still remember the hospitalities of Sardar and Nawabs that how they welcomed us and they treated us, he recalled. But now the Hindus are most vulnerable to kidnapping for ransom. The law makers usually raise their voice for the Hindu community but we do not know why such incidents are not being controlled.
> 
> Parkash Lal said Kalat and Nasirabad Division had become black spots where incidents of kidnapping for ransom are increasing with each passing days.He said it was the responsibility of the civil administration and law enforcing agencies to break up the chain of kidnappers and criminals by bringing them to justice. I appeal that please show sincerity while addressing the plight of Hindu people.
> *However, while the Minister for Minority was sharing the plight of the Hindu community, merely 11 out of 65 lawmakers were in attendance which is not requisite to run the business of the House on moral ground*.



Minority minister raises voice against increase in kidnappings of Hindus &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> now that was harsh
> 
> you just had to say it didnt you
> 
> nasty nasty man



As long as you realize that I spoke the truth, the rest of your words do not matter. 


(PS: I know of Majors driving cabs in Toronto too!  )



Irfan Baloch said:


> and you missed the obvious, the two police gaurds that are detailed to protect him might be the ones he has to be careful of.
> ref the Police bodygaurd who killed Suleman Taseer.



True, but slowly the intolerance is extending ever deeper into society. Not good.


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## naumananjum

he can be killed in saudia as well.. he should select some other country


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## Perceptron

Even the great Abdus Salam was hounded out because of these very same reasons ; Dunno when someone will take a stand against these extremists.

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## somebozo

He is definitely being taunted by the ST gangs. This green cult tents to be violent people..shame on the Pakistani government which can protect the very elements of law enforcement.


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## alphamale

it seems like no one is interested. if it was abt minorities from other side of the border then some members would have pounced like hungry beasts.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

He is doing the right thing bringing it to international attention. Hope he doesn't get bumped off by the Govt or extremists for trying to tell the truth.


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## Splurgenxs

When ones own life isent safe ...how can one assure for the safety of others?

The Hindus should ask for international support and bait the right people ...and see how the tables turn.


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## Tshering22

Usually kidnapping, violence and hate against mainstream Hindus or Buddhists or sikhs is fine. It is only when their own that get mistreated all should look into as a divine duty.


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## Areesh

Mostly Hindus are kidnapped for ransom. And kidnapped anyone who can pay money which includes non-Hindus too. And Indian member's favorite BLA was also accused of being involved in such activities.


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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> As long as you realize that I spoke the truth, the rest of your words do not matter.
> 
> 
> (PS: I know of Majors driving cabs in Toronto too!  )
> 
> 
> 
> True, but slowly the intolerance is extending ever deeper into society. Not good.


what about Vina Malik?
will she by the kerb or doing the 7 11?

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> what about Vina Malik?
> will she by by the cerb or doing the 7 11?



Oh she will end up as a low-priced hooker somewhere.


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## VelocuR

I think, all of our judes in Pakistan court systems will be fleed immediately after death sentences to another thousands extremists in Pakistan. 

At left, who wil rule judge in court?


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## VCheng

RaptorRX707 said:


> I think, all of our judes in Pakistan court systems will be fleed immediately after death sentences to another thousands extremists in Pakistan.
> 
> At left, who wil rule judge in court?



Then mob justice will rule the streets, like Sialkot multiplied a thousand times over.


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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> Oh she will end up as a low-priced hooker somewhere.



well thats her choice why prejudge a woman she might become a pious and honest politician for all we know
as far as taking a stand is concerned our Army did long time ago when it raided the fanatics in Islamabad who had made a house of worship into a house of terror abducting people and forcing confessions
story of two rats one died in a caller hiding behind kids and the other one got caught while trying to flee in a burka
army is still fighting them and getting the label of American jockeys.

well so be it, once the bigger culprits a killed these wanana bees will loose the apatite of religious intimidation


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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> well thats her choice why prejudge a woman she might become a pious and honest politician for all we know



Yes, she might do that, but on balance of probabilities, I will stand by my assessment until she discovers religion well past her sell-by date.



Irfan Baloch said:


> as far as taking a stand is concerned our Army did long time ago when it raided the fanatics in Islamabad who had made a house of worship into a house of terror abducting people and forcing confessions
> story of two rats one died in a caller hiding behind kids and the other one got caught while trying to flee in a burka
> army is still fighting them and getting the label of American jockeys.
> 
> well so be it, once the bigger culprits a killed these wanana bees will loose the apatite of religious intimidation



The Army does take a stand, but almost always too late.


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## pak-marine

so we have a elite policeman who killed the governor the lawyers ransacked the judge's who punished to criminal killer , on top of that the hardliners are threatening and putting bounty on the judge .... no wonder why justice cant be served its as hard as this to punish a stupid , paranoid murderer like qadri ... what a place have we become ??

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## VCheng

pak-marine said:


> .................. what a place have we become ??



Sadly, a hellhole of our own making.

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## VelocuR

Well, we don't know the truth. Pakistan medias is really screw up and play with our mind. Read below. 


*Dismissing rumours: Judge who sentenced Qadri leaves Pakistan for Hajj
*
Dismissing rumours: Judge who sentenced Qadri leaves Pakistan for Hajj &#8211; The Express Tribune

*LAHORE: Contrary to local media reports suggesting that the judge who convicted Mumtaz Qadri has fled the country due to death-threats, The Express Tribune has learnt that Syed Pervez Ali Shah has left for Saudi Arabia to perform Hajj.*

The former Anti-Terrorism Court judge delivered the death sentence to Qadri for the murder of former Punjab governor Salmaan Taseer.

Local media reported that he fled the country after he received death threats from extremist groups.

Sources told The Express Tribune that he had submitted an application for a 50-day ex-Pakistan leave from October 18 to December 8, to the Lahore High Court (LHC) Chief Justice CJ Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry.

Superintendent of Child Protection Court (CPC) Muhammad Jamil told The Express Tribune that Shah had taken charge on October 17. He reportedly left for Hajj on October 18, said Jamil, adding that &#8220;nothing extra was mentioned&#8221; in his application to LHC.

Sources revealed that the leave application does not mention anything in particular regarding death threats. Howeve,r earlier the judge had been unable to perform his duty due to the hostility of lawyers and other religious groups who had been asking the authorities to hand Shah over to them.

Shah was transferred to the CPC Bureau in Lahore as Sitting District and Session Judge and Presiding Officer amid protest from religious groups.

Special Prosecutor for the federal government, Saiful Malook &#8211; who fought the case on behalf of Taseer&#8217;s family - told The Express Tribune that he also faced death threats from some elements for appearing as counsel in the court.


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## Pakistanisage

The only solution for the survival of Pakistan. Hang all the bearded Maulvis and extremist like ATTATURK did. I gaurantee a more prosperous and progressive Pakistan will emerge.


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## Zarvan

Pakistanisage said:


> The only solution for the survival of Pakistan. Hang all the bearded Maulvis and extremist like ATTATURK did. I gaurantee a more prosperous and progressive Pakistan will emerge.


And now Turkey is going back to Islam Sir this formula will fail in every Muslim Country in Tunisia where no women was allowed to wear head covering Azan was banned on many places and now Mullahs have won the elections their and even in Egypt Muslim Brother hood will will win the election

---------- Post added at 08:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 AM ----------

The Judge has gone to perform Hajj according to most news channels and also now by Lahore High Court


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## Zarvan

RaptorRX707 said:


> Sir everything you said is incorrect.
> 
> Oh wait....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Arabized Pakistani Zarvan, is that you?


Yes I love Islam and I love Muslims and you can see Islamists winning elections in every Muslim Country and soon they will be in government in Pakistan too


Islamic Arabized Pakistani Zarvan, is that you?

[/QUOTE]
What wrong I said


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## Irfan Baloch

Post All news related to Domestic crime or Vigilante Justice that hit national News.

Do:
-	provide links and source to the story.
-	Provide your own opening narrative and reason to post this story with your leading comments for intended debate.
-	Check forum policy about postings
- For long story, provide summary of the report and part-Quote the opening paragraph (of source)and let the reader decide if he wants to read the entire contents by clicking on link.

Don&#8217;t:
-	Post grotesque and graphic (offensive) imagery and videos.
- Post Banned topics & related stories
-	Post hate & terrorism supporting propaganda.
-	Spam thread and this section with dated & obscure material.




All threads that are posted separately in the section will be moved or deleted (if they already exist here) the regular offenders will be contacted to follow the guidelines failing to do so will result in warnings and then infractions.

The purpose of this section is not to be a copy & paste report dump but a meaningful and thought provoking debate that is civil, constructive and presents practical solutions rather than rants and arguing for the sake of arguing.

the Guidelines for the Banned topics applies here too so ensure that your posting doesnt violate these rules and all other forum rules. 
I have moved all related stories here) from this point forward follow thse guide lines


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## Don Jaguar

Ok bro.


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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Welcome to maithri kochi...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------
> 
> Farmers' suicides in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------
> 
> 1,500 farmers commit mass suicide in India - Asia, World - The Independent



Zarvan

please make a similar thread like this In the Indian Defwence section because this thread is meant for similar issues in Pakistan that Help Seeker is posting.


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## thegreensprite

Aeronaut said:


> Ahmadi temples are not allowed but only in their dedicated territories.



LOL



> Mosques must not be used for Shirk that is why we take them back any objections ?



No shirk in Pakistan?? Really :
lahore darbar baba sadiq shah - YouTube



> They should migrate to India to seek their roots in Qadiyan and continue their pagan activities there but not In an Islamic state.



People like you should migrate out of this universe.

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## thegreensprite

Zakii said:


> personally you can call me racist when it comes to Ahmedis.



Ahmadis are not a race.. so no you not racist, but we could come up with loads of other words to describe you.



> I am in great favour of co-existince with all other religions. I don't mind if there are 5000 churches, 5000 temples and 5000 other places of worship in Pakistan...



No you are not, you are a hypocrite because :



> ... but i would mind if there are 5000 Ahmedi's so-called mosques in Pakistan.





> That is because Hinduism is a religion that is far far away from us.



Ok




> Chrisitianism is another religion that is not like us. Jewish are a different society and so are other like Zorastrinism.



Ok, so more religions are different, where are trying to get at?



> But when it come sto Ahmedis.................



So we are different aswell? LOL... how? We pray to Allah in the same way as you.




> They are the ones who destroyed our own religion. They tried to corrupt our religion...



Nope... we haven't destroyed anything, it must have been broken by people like you.



> ...and i really feel sorry for them but at the same time would not allow them any kind of activities in Islamic republic of Pakistan.



We don't need your pity, we would prefer it if you could be a good Muslim and act like a human and follow the ways of the Holy Prophet(pbuh)



> There is a tiny line between Muslims and Ahmedis and that line decides your whole faith.



Tiny? So are we different... I thought we had destroyed EVERYTHING???



> It decides whether you believe in the Last Prophet (PBUH) or you the fake prophets coming after him. I can write long article on it so i am stopping here.



Sorry beta... no articles needed, once you say Kalma Tayeba you are a Muslim, now if you want to get deeper and start deciding what Ahmadis really mean in their hearts when they say it, well you start losing us... you are only a human, you don't know anything about how we feel about Allah or the Holy Prophet(pbuh)



> Please Indians do us a favour please. Take all Ahmedis in your country and i am willing to pay you



How are you going to pay? By asking for donations first?

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## Perceptron

thegreensprite said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> No shirk in Pakistan?? Really :
> lahore darbar baba sadiq shah - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> People like you should migrate out of this universe.


I am really surprised at how this forum allows people like Black Blood who has such rabid anti-Ahmadi views gets to become a Researcher ? This forum is democratic, hence even he can have a voice, but a voice with a label is an insult to that label in PDF. I truly feel that voices like MastanKhan ought to get that coveted post.


----------



## thegreensprite

Zakii said:


> ...however no Muslim scholar will ever declare them Muslim.


The words of these so called scholars are cheap... they are only looking after themselves.



> It is like you are declaring Christian a Muslim. Ahmedis and Muslims are two different religions with 2 different foundations of their religions.



You are confused, one minute there is a fine line between you and Ahmadi Muslims, now its two different religions, which is it? Ok so our foundation is different... right... we pray to Allah, read Qu'ran, say the Kalma tayeba, Zakat, hajj, ramadan... hmmm... are you saying all these things are wrong? Sorry mate, don;t dictate what we can or can't do.



> And like i said before i am happy to live with Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and other religions. But they "Ahmedis" have corrupted our religion and their activities cannot be acceptable to the majoritty of Muslims.
> Simple



You are a angry little man... fortunately people like you have no influence on the world.

---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------




Aeronaut said:


> You have missed what i have said before "If they want to live in peace & co existance" They must abide by our Laws and stop acting against the state ie Qadiyanis with dual passports getting Training In Israel is quite an obvious reason why we should worry.



Are you a conspiracy nut who thinks all of Pakistans problems stem from the outside? And whats that about "wanting to live in peace and co-existance", we are not causing the issues, it's trouble makers like you.

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## thegreensprite

Aeronaut said:


> Think before you speak:
> 
> Muslim reaction therefore did not subside in the post-amendment era. A new wave of resentment started in 1976 when* Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari, a veteran Muslim League leader quoted an extract from the book, 'Israel - A Profile' by a Jewish Professor I. T. Nomani, which said that there were 600 Ahmadis living in Israel had joined Israeli army.*
> 
> 
> Rabwah denied the existence of such a Professor or the book. Rabwah further denied that any Pakistani Ahmadi ever had been in Israel or that any Ahmadi is in Israeli army.
> 
> (Quoted in AlFazl Rabwah, 16 January, 11 February, 26 February and 13 April 1976) Maulana Ansari had however produced the book in a press conference which was printed by Pall Mall, London.
> 
> *And it was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, Ahmadiyya Missionary from Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Chaudhry Mohammed Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel.*
> 
> *Other than this, all Qadiani missionaries posted in Israel since 1928 had been living in Rabwah:* J. D. Shams, Allah Ditta Jallendheri, Rashid Ahmad Chughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif. Their families had always been in contact with through questionable channels while they were abraod. (Ahmadiyya Movement - British Jewish Connections by Bashir Ahmad)
> 
> Pakistani Muslims had always been sensitive towards the Zionist state and such news generated more hostilities between them and Qadianis.
> 
> The issue of Ahmadiyya-Isreali collabration again figured in the Pakistani press in Feruary 1977 when an Urdu weekly published a picture from the weekly Jerusalem Post dated 9 October 1976 taken on the occassion of an Israeli function. A Qadiani delegation had called on the President of Israel and had photographs with him. in the picture were Israeli President, his advisor on minority affairs Mansur Kamal, Musa Odeh - a palestinian Qadiani and Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmadiyya Missionary in Israel. (Islami Jamhouriyah, Lahore, 2-8 January 1977; Weekly Lahore, Lahore, 14 February 1977) It proved that unlike other religious and ethnic minorities, Ahmadis had close relations with the Government of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now Speak , what should we do with Traitors !
> 
> Pakistani Constitution and Qadianis
> 
> Qadian and Israel




LOL... conspiracy nut, btw us Ahmadi Muslims join the armies of whatever country we reside in, including Isarel, nothing wrong with that, if the outside world is so evil, i wonder why there are so many Pakistanis in Europe/US... why don't they all head back? LOL.... and this copied pasted waffle above is not _proof_.


----------



## thegreensprite

Hammy007 said:


> ...you are just ranting like an indian, are you an indian??? now you are just humiliating your own country infront of non pakistani viewers and its such a shame really..



Is this your way of silencing dialogue... calling them Indian or Ahmadi or anything to divert from the main point, any human with a kind heart will see Pakistanis as a nation can be pretty cruel, and when sh*t hits the fan in Pakistan, nobody is really bothered, I mean just looking at the floods, doesn't seem like a reward for being a good Muslim nation now is it.

---------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 AM ----------




Aeronaut said:


> Last time i heard was Qadiyanis Running away from Debates , how would they even come to Courts ?



LOL... running from debates, right, and when we destroy you intellectually you start using violence... why disucss anything with jahils?



> Recently an israeli general written in his book that they are Providing Training to Qadiyanis to send them back to Pakistan.
> 
> I am trying to get hold of the Links to that if i could .



I'm really looking forward to this.... 

---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------




Aeronaut said:


> *More Qadiyanis serve in the Israeli Armed Forces than Pakistan according to a book, 'Israel: A Profile', by a Jewish Professor I.T Naomi. He stated: ' and the Ahmadi sect of some 600 people from Pakistan also serve in the (Israeli) army...' To many analysts Qadiyanis are a political issue and have always been a security problem? In India Qadiyanis have collected and donated thousands to the Indian Army fund after Kargil.
> 
> Tariq Aziz reportedly Qadiyani relative of Rehman Malik has been hired for the 'track two diplomacy with India'. His rank and salary would be equivalent to ....... No wonder MQM and PPP are reportedly planning to move a motion in the parliament to undo the declaration of Qadiyanis as non Muslims by ZA Bhutto led Parliament on 7th September 1974.
> 
> Altaf Hussain prayed for the forgiveness of Mirza Tahir Ahmad Qadiyani leader, who died in London few of years ago?
> It was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmedyah Missionary of Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Ch. Muhammad Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel. All Qadiyani missionaries who had been formerly posted in Israel since 1928 namely J.D Shams, Allah Dita Jalundhari, Rashid Ahmed Chaughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif lived in Rabwah after serving in Israel. Their families had mysterious contact channels when they were in Israel", wrote Bashir Ahmad in 'Ahmadiyah Movement: British Jewish Connection.
> 
> As far as Jewish help and support is concerned, Mirza Mubarak Ahmad, grandson of the Qadiyani prophet has himself acknowledged in his book OUR FOREIGN MISSIONS', PP. 79-80 in the following words: "The Ahmadiyya mission in Israel is situated in Haifa at Mount Karmal. We have a mosque there, a mission house, a library, a book depot and a school".
> 
> 
> 
> Counter it !!
> 
> *


*

LOL... counter what?

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 AM ----------




Aeronaut said:



But most of the cases are Dramas staged by these qadiyanis themselves to get a solid Police report with a Newspaper reference that they can claim the asylum in other Countries.

Click to expand...


LOL... these delusional comments are so funny.. LOL*

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## thegreensprite

Aeronaut said:


> I dont care about what they believe but what i do care about is that they Must not involve in Anti Pakistan Activities as it gives our enemies a breeding ground on our own soil by our own citizens.



You do care what we believe in, you like to stick your nose in our business and because you don't like it you make up lies.



> Go through my previous posts , WTF Pakistani Ahmadis are doing in Israli millitary ???


Please stop having these delusions about the quality of your posts... they lack credibility and are full of factual and spelling mistakes. 



> Our Passports don't allow treaveling to the Zionist state , neither our constitution recognoizes them as a Country.



So what?



> Everyone having polices which contradict our Constitution must be punished and this is how state works.



There is no law in Pakistan, only money.



> They give up their Anti Pakistan activities today they would be recognized as "Loyal" citizens tomorrow.



There are plenty of us in Pakistan Armed Forces, if we were carrying out anti-Pakistan activities it would have been highlighted by now, you are talking BS.

---------- Post added at 09:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ----------




Aeronaut said:


> Please have a read if they Altered Quran !



_If_ you were a Muslim you would know NOBODY can alter the Qu'ran, it is protected by Allah.

---------- Post added at 09:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 AM ----------




Nahraf said:


> The violence against Qadianis have been unfortunate. But the Qadianis have been very aggressive in both Pakistan and other parts of the world. They have themselves broken one of the cardinal rule of Islam. They are no longer Muslims and their insistence for being Muslims and aggressive missionary activity only brings limelight on them. I don't see that kind of negative feeling against Christians, Hindus, Parsis, etc that I see against Qadianis in Pakistan and abroad.



Stop making excuses, people like you are the cancer in Pakistan.

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## newdelhinsa

Ahmadis should convert to Shia or Sunni Islam or move to some other country where they can practice their religion in peace.


----------



## Ahmad

newdelhinsa said:


> Ahmadis should convert to Shia or Sunni Islam or move to some other country where they can practice their religion in peace.



not a good solution.


----------



## thegreensprite

Nahraf said:


> There are many people in all Muslim sects that declare each other kaffir but they all agree that Qadianis are not Muslims.



LOL... how laughable is that?? They call each other kaffir.. but are also united at the fact that Ahmadi Muslims are kaffirs... WOW.... I hope people realize how stupid some of the arguements against Ahmadis are.



> Nobody from these sects has declared themselves as prophet and messiah as Mirza Ghulam Qadiani has done. Even the Ismailis that have deviated from mainstream Islam have never broken the cardinal rule on finality of prophethood (Khatmay-Nabuwat).



Who cares, you all are only humans, capable of making 1000's of mistakes, we don't care what the rest of the sects think/do, please do the same.


----------



## Ahmad

@thegreensprite: i wanted to ask you something, do you believe in finality of prophicy or do you believe that there will be another prophet after hazrat Muhamad(pbuh)? i asked this for the sake of information, not to undermine your belief.


----------



## thegreensprite

Zakii said:


> As i said before i am a very peace loving person and ready to live with all other religions in fact i love multi religion socities.



You are confused and contradicting yourself 10 times in one paragraph. You are NOT a peace loving person.



> I said before i am little racist only for this issue  and that too is for the betterment of Muslims living in Pakistan



And Ahmadiyya Islam is not a race, so you are not a racist, learn the meaning of words you love using.



> My last post here



Great! 

---------- Post added at 10:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 AM ----------




Ahmad said:


> @thegreensprite: i wanted to ask you something, do you believe in finality of prophicy or do you believe that there will be another prophet after hazrat Muhamad(pbuh)? i asked this for the sake of information, not to undermine your belief.



Hi Ahmad, I do believe in the finality of prophethood. I believe every single word of the Kalma Tayeba.

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## apophenia

GOP has failed to protect its citizens no matter what religion they belong too. Case closed!


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## thegreensprite

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> fateh71 next time write a name with Capital letter specially of a prohet



There is no compulsion in religion, especially in Islam, all the armchair scholars online seem to want to impose one or the other rule on everyone except themselves, and now it's how prophet should be spelt??*(funny thing is the teacher doesn't spell prophet correctly while telling the other party to spell correctly.. LOL)* If I only highlighted how many times these same armchair scholars have mentioned the Holy Prophet(pbuh) and haven't been able to add a pbuh it would seem they are not even Muslims. Why highlight such petty things as spelling when most are failures in being a Muslim?

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## thegreensprite

Aeronaut said:


> *Qadianis great grandson meets JI ex-Ameer
> Published: January 07, 2010*
> 
> LAHORE - Great grandson of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani, Abdur Rahman, who has reverted to Islam, called on Qazi Hussain Ahmed, former Ameer Jamaat-e-Islami, at Mansoora on Wednesday. Allama Ibtisam Elahi Zaheer, son of Allama Ehsan Elahi Zaheer accompanied him.
> 
> Abdur Rahman, elder son of Mirza Nasir Ahmed, rejoined Islams fold in the year 1999 after going through Allama Ihsan Elahis book Qadiniat, Mirzayat and Islam. He has command over seven languages and is working as translator at Bhasha Dam.
> 
> Abdur Rahman told Qazi that after reverting to Islam, he had given up his inherited property. Last year, he had applied for Hajj and the Saudi authorities asked for documentary evidence of his rejoining Islam, which he produced. He alleged that a fortnight ago, a group of Qadianis abducted him and subjected him to severe torture at Aiwan-e-Mahmud, near Ganga Ram Hospital and his nose was fractured. He became unconscious after which they abandoned him near Anarkali Bazaar. Allama Ibtisam Elahi provided him protection and arranged his medical treatment.
> 
> Qazi Hussain Ahmed condemned torture on him and said this had exposed the cruel face of Qadianiat. He told Abdur Rahman that his reversion to Islam was a breakthrough and big news. He said that if the people in Rabwah were given basic human rights, their majority would revert to Islam. At present, he said, the Rabwah people were under great pressure. He called upon the government to provide proper security to Abdur Rahman and warned that if any harm came to him, the Qadianis would be held responsible. He said that the Muslims all over the world were happy over Abdur Rahmans rejoining Islam. He also thanked the religious parties for expressing solidarity with Abdur Rahman.
> 
> Qadiani's great grandson meets JI ex-Ameer - The daily Nation, Pakistan




LOL... this guy is a fake:
*
On December 21, 2009 Express TV, Pakistan in its program Point Blank hosted by Mr. Mubashir Luqman, presented one Abdur Rehman who claimed to be a grandson of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (as) and son of Hazrat Mirza Nasir Ahmad (ra), the 3rd Caliph of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. In his interview and subsequent Press Conference arranged by Hafiz Ibtisam Elahi Zaheer, Secretary General of Jamiat Ahle Hadith, Abdur Rehman alleged that he convered to Islam in 1989 and now some Ahmadis have kidnapped and tortured him. In a Press Release Mr. Salimuddin, spokesperson of Jamaat Ahmadiyya, categorically denied Abdur Rehmans false accusations as well as his claim. It is well known that Hazrat Mirza Nasir Ahmad (ra) had only three sons namely Mirza Anas Ahmad, Mirza Fareed Ahmad and Mirza Luqman Ahmad. Appearance of this fake person in media with connivance of mullas is an indication of conspiracy to harm Jamaat Ahmadiyya and family of holy founder of Jamaat.*

---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------




qsaark said:


> Jinnah was a political leader, he also used to drink and eat pork so what? We should also start drinking and eating pork because 'father of the nation' had also done so?



No, you should leave the country for somewhere where they don't drink and eat pork, simples.


----------



## newdelhinsa

Ahmad said:


> not a good solution.



Its better to be separated from your mother land temporarily and save your lives. 

When the time will come those separated are supose to be proliferated in large numbers. If they are pure, honest and truthful they will spread the same traits to many more around the world. The evil will implode, be contained and isolated. 


There are holy verses in Adi Granth Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. '' *Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe.*" ''Those separated will unite and all the followers shall be saved''. 

Though these verses are/ should be purely confined to Sikhs and Sikhs only. But it tells us about possible separation from the loved ones at the time of great sorrows and limiting discrimination upon one's belief and to be ready for the worst. If Ahmadis believe in their religion then they should keep moving and survive.

Regards


----------



## Luftwaffe

thegreensprite, you must understand in Pakistan not everyone is hostile to the ahmediya community. The results are quite the opposite Sialkot is an example in harmony despite many qadianis, you people should not claim to be victims just became of few incidents. 

This is not a place to practice, preach specific man made deliberate distortion religion to bring bad name to The Major Religion. 

Please keep your arguments and defending for ahmediya out of this forum. Factually ahmediya spin-off has been proven to be wrong with over whelming evidences, concentrate on how to bring about positiveness as being minority with-in Pakistan considering one self Pakistani rather then victims.

Lets end this hostility and move on to contribute something to Pakistan to become a Nation of multicultural progressive communities.


----------



## thegreensprite

kugga said:


> Obviously UK is a democratic country and if there people do not want any more mosques its there decision I cannot say any thing like the government of Belgium has passed the law against hijab but if you want democracy you will have to bear all this.... democracy says that masses are always right and that's what is its products if you want to counter the acts of Belgium govt you must have a population on your



Nope democracy doesn't say the masses are always right, if that was the case there would be no immigrants in the UK or rights for minorities, please don't discuss subjects you have no clue about.


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## regular

Sir! the Govt can't do anything for the pplz/qadianis who don't even accept Islam as a true religion and believe in Qadianis as an imposter and Murtid......


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## regular

I guess the Qadianis shold go and take asylum within USA and UK or Europe as they've been doing this for last many decades... They are safe heavens for them to spread their fake and corrupt religions.....and misguide people their own white masterz generations there...


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## jetti

regular said:


> I guess the Qadianis shold go and take asylum within USA and UK or Europe as they've been doing this for last many decades... They are safe heavens for them to spread their fake and corrupt religions.....and misguide people their own white masterz generations there...


As an Indian , my heart feels joy on reading this. The more people like you in pakistan the weaker it will become in the long run. But in the short term my heart felt sympathies for Ahmadi Muslims undergoing persecution by Sunni majority.

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## ARSENAL6

thegreensprite said:


> Sorry beta... no articles needed, once you say Kalma Tayeba you are a Muslim, now if you want to get deeper and start deciding what Ahmadis really mean in their hearts when they say it, well you start losing us... you are only a human, you don't know anything about how we feel about Allah or the Holy Prophet(pbuh)


 
So your logic that after Kulma Mulsim can do the following:

1) eat pork
2) drink wine
3) change the Quran to suit their needs (more precisly wants) instead of obeying Allah(swt)
4) don't pray at all and I mean when there is no difficultie ie like there is a movie you want to
watch instead of praying etc etc etc
5) Following the quran partly
6) disgard the Prophet teaches and Quran totally. 

By no means I'm saying that this is what the Ahmedis do but I will say this
Islam does say that Mohammid is the Last Prophet:

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)" 

Comments from the foot notes of the translation of Sheikh (Minister) Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul and make Heaven his final destiny: "When a document is sealed, it is complete, and there can be no further addition. The Holy Prophet Muhammad closed the long line of Messengers. Allah's teaching is and will always be continuous, but there has been and will be no Prophet after Muhammad. The later ages will want thinkers and reformers, not Prophets. This is not an arbitrary matter. It is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom, 'for Allah has full knowledge of all things.'"

In the above Noble Verse we see Allah Almighty clearly Saying that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet (Messenger) sent by Allah Almighty to Mankind. In Arabic, the words "Prophet (Nabi)", and "Messenger (Rasul)" could and would mean the same thing. This means that Allah Almighty in the above Noble Verse said that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Messenger and Prophet of GOD Almighty. The following Saying from our beloved Prophet peace be upon him will further prove it for us: 

"In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me"

so I wonder, just wondering how is it that you got yours ?


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## regular

jetti said:


> As an Indian , my heart feels joy on reading this. The more people like you in pakistan the weaker it will become in the long run. But in the short term my heart felt sympathies for Ahmadi/Qadianis undergoing persecution by Sunni majority.


Oh my God U so nice to Qadianis ...U can have some if U like them so much. I don't care ... I will be happi ...Oh by the way why U getting so happi if Pakistan gets weak...U know ure Army gonna cry for more money cuz they won't get any if Pakistan is weaker...


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## jetti

regular said:


> Oh my God U so nice to Qadianis ...U can have some if U like them so much. I don't care ... I will be happi ...Oh by the way why U getting so happi if Pakistan gets weak...U know ure Army gonna cry for more money cuz they won't get any if Pakistan is weaker...


Lol.. India ary is not Pak army. They work with whatever budget they get. They d not rule the country. But that's not point.


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## regular

jetti said:


> Lol.. India ary is not Pak army. They work with whatever budget they get. They d not rule the country. But that's not point.


I guess U didn't get my point. I meant with weaker Pakistan ure Army won't need that much budget to counter us so it will be decreased. Its quite possible Ure Army's soldiers will be decreased by number cuz we will be weak. This means the Army won't recruit so many pplz and hence unemployment will surge. Cuz less weapons will be manufactured. So U guyz will face same kind of un-employment as US and Europe do nowadays......


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## thegreensprite

ARSENAL6 said:


> So your logic that after Kulma Mulsim can do the following:
> 
> 1) eat pork
> 2) drink wine
> 3) change the Quran to suit their needs (more precisly wants) instead of obeying Allah(swt)
> 4) don't pray at all and I mean when there is no difficultie ie like there is a movie you want to
> watch instead of praying etc etc etc
> 5) Following the quran partly
> 6) disgard the Prophet teaches and Quran totally.



LOL... how did you come to this conclusion??? What sort of logic are you using... and this list of yours is irrelevant, to be a Muslim you only have to say the Kalma Tayeba, the rest is between you and Allah. I bet you are one of those people who thinks Heaven will only be full of Muslims...



> By no means I'm saying that this is what the Ahmedis do but I will say this
> Islam does say that Mohammid is the Last Prophet:
> 
> "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"



It comes down to your intelligence levels and interpretation of things. To you *Seal* may mean last, to me it has other meanings, ie. there is no more new message to come, it is done... sealed, no more new revelations.



> Comments from the foot notes of the translation of Sheikh (Minister) Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul and make Heaven his final destiny: "When a document is sealed, it is complete, and there can be no further addition.



Correct



> The Holy Prophet Muhammad closed the long line of Messengers. Allah's teaching is and will always be continuous, but there has been and will be no Prophet after Muhammad. The later ages will want thinkers and reformers, not Prophets. This is not an arbitrary matter. It is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom, 'for Allah has full knowledge of all things.'"



Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not a Prophet in the same sense.. he is the Imam Mahdi... the reformed.. and yes Allah does have full knowledge of all things, whereas this Yusuf Ali doesn't.



> In the above Noble Verse we see Allah Almighty clearly Saying that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet (Messenger) sent by Allah Almighty to Mankind.



This is *your* interpretation.



> In Arabic, the words "Prophet (Nabi)", and "Messenger (Rasul)" could and would mean the same thing.



Again... *your* interpretation.



> This means that Allah Almighty in the above Noble Verse said that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Messenger and Prophet of GOD Almighty.



*YOUR * interpretation. 



> The following Saying from our beloved Prophet peace be upon him will further prove it for us:
> "In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me"
> so I wonder, just wondering how is it that you got yours ?



Hazrat Isa anyone?


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## jetti

regular said:


> I guess U didn't get my point. I meant with weaker Pakistan ure Army won't need that much budget to counter us so it will be decreased. Its quite possible Ure Army's soldiers will be decreased by number cuz we will be weak. This means the Army won't recruit so many pplz and hence unemployment will surge. Cuz less weapons will be manufactured. So U guyz will face same kind of un-employment as US and Europe do nowadays......


Friend that's why we cunning Indians buy weapons. W don't manufacture much. The money saved from buying weapons will be used n generating employment which will be filled by the reduced army numbers. So don't worry a weak Pak is good for India. And with more guys like you I see that happening very soon. Allah will ensure it.


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## regular

jetti said:


> Friend that's why we cunning Indians buy weapons. W don't manufacture much. The money saved from buying weapons will be used n generating employment which will be filled by the reduced army numbers. So don't worry a weak Pak is good for India. And with more guys like you I see that happening very soon. Allah will ensure it.


I guess u're got decieved by ure leaders too like we are. These politicians will stash the saved money from ure paid taxes within the Swiss accounts so don't get optimistic about that.They won't decrease unemployment there either. Remember the british was very smart they planted their agents as leaders on us as well as on U guys and just take away all the money within the Europe. Thats why after 60 years we are still facing poverty.Just keep dreaming for good future....


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## Thorough Pro

another false propaganda items, minorities in Pakistan have much better standards of living, rights and security than in the country on our eastern border.


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## Solomon2

Branded an Ahmadi, hakim is expelled from district
By Muhammad Sadaqat
Published: November 3, 2011





Police denies expulsion, claims to have closed the clinic to avoid unrest.

*HARIPUR: A hakim accused of being an Ahmadi and proselytising was expelled from Haripur on Wednesday. The police, however, denied expelling Sheikh Arif from the district and said he had decided to leave himself.

Chased out or left voluntarily?*

Haripur police officials said that local ulema, accompanied by officials of a local intelligence agency, visited Arif&#8217;s clinic some days back and found Quranic verses painted on its shutter along with a picture of one of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed&#8217;s companions.

When they asked Arif why he had painted the picture of an Ahmadi over Quranic verses, he initially said the picture was his ancestor&#8217;s but later confessed that he had made a mistake.

The ulema accused him of violating the law that restricted Ahmadis from openly preaching their religion. They demanded a complete ban on his business and his expulsion from the district.

A delegation of the ulema met District Police Officer (DPO) Haripur Muhammad Ali Gandapur, who, according to them, ordered an inquiry against the hakim and expelled him from the district.

Deputy Superintendent Police Raja Abdul Saboor rejected the ulemas&#8217; claim and said the decision to leave was his own.

An inquiry into the allegations against the hakim is yet to be completed, he said.

&#8220;Since there was some indication of violation of section 298C of the Pakistan Penal Code (which prohibits Ahmadis from behaving as Muslims), the police has asked the dispensers to close the clinic to avoid unrest,&#8221; he added.

*Proving otherwise*

Talking to _The Express Tribune _ Arif rejected the allegation, &#8220;I&#8217;m a Barelvi Muslim. I consider [Ahmadis] unbelievers,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;I met DPO Haripur and took an oath declaring that I was not an Ahmadi and that the painting was copied from a picture on a book on traditional medicine,&#8221; he said.

He added that the DPO asked him to avoid Haripur unless he was called for an inquiry.

Arif said he was a qualified hakim and some of his business rivals had conspired to malign him. &#8220;The police have arrested two of my staff members.&#8221;

The terrified 60-year-old hakim sent two religious decrees issued by Jamia Ashrafia and a mosque Arif frequented for prayers in Lahore, acknowledging that he was not an Ahmadi. He also claimed to have contacted religious scholars to prove his innocence.

_Published in The Express Tribune, November 3rd, 2011._


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## regular

Nothing could be trusted. But if realli don't believe in Qadiani/Murtid religion then nothing gonna happen to him....

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## Solomon2

I post these articles to hammer in a point: you can't keep invoking religious ideology to oppress minority citizens in your community, because eventually that oppression will turn around to feed on _you._

Pakistan, as originally envisioned, guaranteed religious freedom to religious minorities. Jinnah understood explicitly that that meant not merely acquiescing to their existence but allowing them to grow and thrive, including the establishments of new minority communities, new houses of worship, and converts _away_ from Islam.

Pakistan has failed miserably in this regard. And that misery spreads wider every day because "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."


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## jetti

why cant ahmedi muslims preach their version of Islam? I thought Pakistan is a free country. If the sunnis are okay for someone to preach the sunni flavour of islam they should be legally obliged to let others whether it is christian or hindu or their own ahmadi muslims to preach theirs


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## Safriz

i am from the same general area,and yes there is a dislike for Ahmedis among people of Hazara,of which Haripur is a part..But it will take many other factors to reach a situation where a minority person has been approaches,persecuted and expelled.
Pictures and Verses of Quran being painted together is something suspicious.....The people who perform Dark arts do similar things and many other things which is out of context so i wont mention....
So like i said,there have to be other contributing factors.....and Bravo at the anti Pakistan Brigade who suss out small news reports from far flung secluded areas..I havent read a news about Haripur in international news for many years.

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## monitor

Those who believe in kadianee/Ahmedia are not muslim . they can live happily any where but condition is they should refrain themselves think as Muslim.

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## Solomon2

safriz said:


> i am from the same general area,and yes there is a dislike for Ahmedis among people of Hazara,of which Haripur is a part..But it will take many other factors to reach a situation where a minority person has been approaches,persecuted and expelled.


Granted, I don't know much about the Hazaras of K-P. Nevertheless, if a firebrand mullah and his followers invade your area, wishing to expel or kill Ahmedis, are you willing to protect the Ahmedis yourself? Or do you think the police/FP/Army will do it?


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## Safriz

jetti said:


> why cant ahmedi muslims preach their version of Islam? I thought Pakistan is a free country. If the sunnis are okay for someone to preach the sunni flavour of islam they should be legally obliged to let others whether it is christian or hindu or their own ahmadi muslims to preach theirs



Ahmedis are legally banned impostors of islam.....
cant have problem with whatever sky fairy they beleive in..they should feel free..butr no they arent muslims

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## Safriz

Solomon2 said:


> Granted, I don't know much about the Hazaras of K-P. Nevertheless, if a firebrand mullah and his followers invade your area, wishing to expel or kill Ahmedis, are you willing to protect the Ahmedis yourself? Or do you think the police/FP/Army will do it?



not me..but my family has done it in the past,as i was only 7 at that time.
a grenade attack was planed on a very docile ahmedi family who happened to be our distant neighbors and members of my family had an eavesdrop on the "To be" perpetrators....and the matter was resolved by using peer pressure although police was not involved....The ahmedi family never knew of it and it was kept that way...as telling them would have harassed them. 
My stance on the matter is peaceful protest and debate..I oppose Ahmedi faith as they are impostors of ISlam and shouldn't call themselves muslims..But i only debate,i dont go ballistic as its of no use.
About army or Police standing guard..i doubt that...may not happen..as in Norhern Pakistan still clan,cast and tribe matters..If you are a member of a certain Tribe or cast,you will get help from your clan...even if you are Ahmedi...

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## Solomon2

safriz said:


> ...the matter was resolved by using peer pressure although police was not involved....The ahmedi family never knew of it and it was kept that way...as telling them would have harassed them...


I am impressed: the matter was handled assertively yet with delicacy and tact. I especially like the fact that the ahmedi family never knew who their benefactors were.



> My stance on the matter is peaceful protest and debate..I oppose Ahmedi faith as they are impostors of ISlam and shouldn't call themselves muslims..But i only debate,i dont go ballistic as its of no use.


That is not very different from the attitudes between faiths in the West.



> About army or Police standing guard..i doubt that...may not happen..as in Norhern Pakistan still clan,cast and tribe matters..If you are a member of a certain Tribe or cast,you will get help from your clan...even if you are Ahmedi...


That canb be both good and bad. Do you think a worthy project would be the formal integration of tribal and state laws? I do. Some of what I didn't understand in Jewish Law becomes clearer when talking to Pakistanis...one of the functions of Torah law was to combine the two together into a whole where all Twelve Tribes could work together as a nation. The idea was so new Jews must have been as puzzled then as I am now, looking through the opposite end of the telescope...


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## mymeaningislion

jetti said:


> why cant ahmedi muslims preach their version of Islam? I thought Pakistan is a free country. If the sunnis are okay for someone to preach the sunni flavour of islam they should be legally obliged to let others whether it is christian or hindu or their own ahmadi muslims to preach theirs



gentleman for preaching one thing is that you have to respect other thoughts but ahmedis and quadians start with neglecting the prophecy......... so conflicts start from the very beginning............... and this is not a religious forum so i can't comment or argue ........ otherwise i have enough grip on cristianity....hinduism..... to convert someone knowledgeable and rational person....... but as i said it is not a place to talk on such topics........ and plz refrain from commenting on such topics that you don't understand .......

regards 
Azhar

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## Perceptron

*Commonly known Pakistanis arrested abroad.*Sabir Shah
Thursday, November 03, 2011
LAHORE: While 7,000 Pakistanis currently languishing in foreign jails were famous prior to their arrests, a few gained notoriety after they were apprehended on accusations ranging from immigration-related offences and terrorism to murder, attempted murder and possession of weapons to kill etc.

It is common knowledge that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs gave the details about the 7,000 Pakistanis imprisoned abroad to the Supreme Court of Pakistan in March 2010.

*Commonly known people like classical singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, Ajmal Kasab, Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, Mir Aimal Kasi, hijacker Salamullah Tipu and Amir Cheema etc are among the thousands of Pakistanis held, prosecuted and jailed abroad during the last few decades.*

Here follow some brief details about these jailed Pakistanis, most of whom have surely brought a bad name to the country due to their misdeeds: Pakistani Singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan was arrested at Delhi Airport on February 13, 2011 for possessing 124,000 US dollars, higher than the permissible limits. The Delhi Airport police officials interrogated him. On February 14, 2011 Rahat was released after having remained in detention for over 25 hours.

*Highly placed Pakistani authorities like Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir, Interior Minister Rehman Malik and the countrys High Commissioner to New Delhi Shahid Malik were on record to have actually urged India for the singers release.*

(References: Geo TV and NDTV India)

Ajmal Amir Kasab was arrested in India for his alleged involvement in the November 26, 2008 Mumbai attacks that had claimed 166 lives. He was the only attacker captured alive by the Mumbai police after the incident. *The government of Pakistan, after having initially denied that Kasab was a Pakistani, had officially acknowledged in January 2009 that the alleged terrorist was a resident of Faridkot village in West Punjab.*

*It is imperative to recall that the then National Security Advisor of Pakistan, Mahmood Ali Durrani, had publicly admitted that Kasab was a Pakistani citizen, but this statement on an Indian television channel had cost him his job as Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani had instantly fired Durrani for lack of coordination on matters of national security.* 

On May 3, 2010 an Indian court had convicted Kasab of murder, waging war on India and possessing explosives etc. And just three days later, the same trial court had sentenced him to death on four counts and to a life sentence on five other counts. 

Kasab has been sentenced to death for attacking Mumbai and killing 166 people on November 26, 2008 along with nine other Pakistani terrorists. Overall, he was found guilty of 80 offences. The Bombay High Court upheld Kasabs death sentence on February 21, 2011.

On July 30, 2011 Kasab had moved the Supreme Court of India, challenging his conviction and sentence in this case. The Apex Indian court had stayed the Bombay High Court orders and had started hearing the plea.

Dr. Aafia Siddiqui (born 1972) is an American-educated Pakistani neuroscientist, who was convicted because of her alleged intention to murder her US interrogators in Afghanistan. She is known to have been arrested in July 2008 in Afghanistan. After receiving medical treatment for her wounds at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, a severely injured Aafia was then flown to the US to be charged in New York with attempted murder and armed assault on US officers. She was charged on July 31, 2008, convicted in February 2010 and in September 2010 a United States court sentenced her to 86 years in prison.

(References: The Boston Globe, The Associated Press, The New York Times, The Washington Post etc)

*Mir Aimal Kasi, a Pakistani allegedly involved in the January 25, 1993 shooting at CIA Headquarters in Virginia (US), was arrested on June 15, 1997 from a Dera Ghazi Khan Hotel by a team of FBI agents and Pakistani security agencies.* In the afore-mentioned CIA shooting incident, Kasi had reportedly killed two CIA employees and wounded another three before escaping to Pakistan. He was flown to the US on June 17, 1997. A Virginia state court tried Kasi in November 1997. On February 4, 1998 he was sentenced to death, besides being sentenced to life imprisonment in the same case and fined $0.6 million.

*Kasi was finally executed by a lethal injection on November 14, 2002 and his body was repatriated to Pakistan.*

(References: FBI archives and The Washington Post etc)

Salamullah Tipu, a Pakistani leftist student leader at the University of Karachi and a prominent member of late Murtaza Bhuttos guerilla outfit Al-Zulfikar, had hijacked a Peshawar-bound PIA plane from Karachi in March 1981. The plane was first diverted to Kabul and was then flown to Damascus. However, 29 hostages were released in Kabul.

The purpose behind the hijacking was to avenge Zulfikar Ali Bhuttos execution by General Ziaul Haq in 1979 and get 92 political prisoners released. General Zia had initially refused to bow to the demands of Tipu and his two accomplices, but had later agreed to release 52 prisoners on the demand of the hijackers.

*Tipu then shot dead a diplomat, Tariq Rahim, whom he had mistakenly believed to be the son of General Rahimuddin Khan, the then-martial law administrator and a key aide of General Zia.*

Tariqs body was lefty on the tarmac.

Tipu was arrested in Kabul in 1984 and was eventually executed the same year for murdering an Afghan national. His body was never returned to Pakistan.

(References: BBC report of October 3, 2001 and various Pakistani media outlets between 1981 and 1984)

Amir Abdur Rehman Cheema (19782006) was 28-year-old Pakistani textile engineering student in Germany. He was infuriated over the re-publication of blasphemous cartoons (originally printed in a Danish media outlet) in a German newspaper.

*The young man, hailing from the city of Wazirabad, had reportedly entered the German newspapers offices on March 20, 2006 to murder the papers Editor, Roger Koppel. He was arrested on the sport by the security guards.*

*On May 3, 2006 while he was still awaiting trial in German police custody, he had reportedly committed suicide in his jail cell.*

A motion was tabled in the National Assembly of Pakistan to discuss the circumstances leading to Amir Cheemas death. The post-mortem examination, carried out in the presence of two Pakistani officials in Germany, had found no signs of torture though. He was buried in his native town on May 13, 2006.

(References: Al-Jazeera TV, Daily Scotsman, BBC and top German weekly magazine Der Spiegel etc)


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## Safriz

Solomon2 said:


> I am impressed: the matter was handled assertively yet with delicacy and tact. I especially like the fact that the ahmedi family never knew who their benefactors were.
> 
> That is not very different from the attitudes between faiths in the West.
> 
> That canb be both good and bad. Do you think a worthy project would be the formal integration of tribal and state laws? I do. Some of what I didn't understand in Jewish Law becomes clearer when talking to Pakistanis...one of the functions of Torah law was to combine the two together into a whole where all Twelve Tribes could work together as a nation. The idea was so new Jews must have been as puzzled then as I am now, looking through the opposite end of the telescope...



The matter is complicated as you mentioned in your comment......And you mentioned about Torah trying to integrate new laws with older tribal traditions,same was the position of Islam,it allowed some tribal traditions,and left people to have their own discretion about it...In my opinion Uniting children of Israel has always been tricky (No offense meant here)..and the state of Israel has done this one thing by just being there..It has United Jews from all around the world.
In Pakistan (well the part of the world which is now Pakistan) Most tribes converted to Islam in the 7th century AD..Back then they conveniently carried on the part of tribal traditions which loosely coincided with teachings of Islam,and still continues.....and it can be good thing and a bad thing..Good thing because many matters and disputes are solved among people using old tribal traditions without involving the Police and court system,which puts less strain on Police and justice system resources..I still remember when as a young man in my teens i was looking after my father's house construction...A neighbor was doing the same,as in building his house on an adjacent piece of land and his inconsiderate digging caused demolition of a large portion of our house...Now this matter could have gone to the court and both parties had engaged in a lengthy expensive legal battle for years..But "Jirgaa" was called and the matter was resolved in a few hours,and we managed to remain good neighbors,which wouldn't have been possible in the case of following law of the land and involving the Establishment,as we would have ended up having grievances against each other. 
But in the case of women rights the same thing can be bad..Extreme suppression of women and in some cases Honor killing is an age old tribal tradition.I dont need to elaborate on this,as its been discussed here multiple times.
About minorities and tribal traditions..You may be aware of the Bugti tribe of Baluchistan...Part of this tribe is up in arms at the moment in the form of terrorist organization BLA They happily kill Muslims but there are many Sikhs in their tribe who never have problems for being non Muslims,as their tribal and linguistic links with the locals outweighs their being "infidels" and while me as a Muslim will be frowned upon living in a Bugti village and will be treated as an outsider and may face persecution..The sikhs of Bugti tribe wont have any problem...
So there you go..it is complicated..
My personal opinion is that YES,we should move on and law of the land should be the standard for everyone..Not the tribal tradition..

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## Perceptron

monitor said:


> Those who believe in kadianee/Ahmedia are not muslim . they can live happily any where but condition is they should refrain themselves think as Muslim.


The Ahmedis are amongst the best and brightest Muslims ; The prestige and good name of Islam carried out in the world is on a large part, due to Ahmadis. Sunni Muslims have shown enough bigotry and radicalism by their acts, and i believe that the only compensation to that is by allowing the influence of Ahmadis to spread. Any version of Islam that says Muhammad is the final prophet is a regressive version of theocracy.


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## Safriz

Perceptron said:


> The Ahmedis are amongst the best and brightest Muslims ; The prestige and good name of Islam carried out in the world is on a large part, due to Ahmadis. Sunni Muslims have shown enough bigotry and radicalism by their acts, and i believe that the only compensation to that is by allowing the influence of Ahmadis to spread. Any version of Islam that says Muhammad is the final prophet is a regressive version of theocracy.



No no...you dont understand..
For being a Muslim you need to have few basic beliefs....The most important are Belief in Allah and Belief in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)..Ahmedis dont have belief in Prophet Muhammed (PBUH),so technically they dont fit the bill.

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## crimemaster_gogo

worst thing ever created by man is "religion" its the moot point for all fools to fight and die for.


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## Safriz

crimemaster_gogo said:


> worst thing ever created by man is "religion" its the moot point for all fools to fight and die for.



Thats your opinion,to which you are entitled to.

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## Imran Khan

solomon care pakistanis from another corner of world man


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## jetti

Huh.. You are contradicting yourself in line 1. Do you respect ahmadi thoughts if you want to preach to ahmadi to become a Sunni / Shia? Do you respect their view that there was another prophet?
If you had a grip on all religions then you would not be areligious person. Way what a quote


mymeaningislion said:


> gentleman for preaching one thing is that you have to respect other thoughts but ahmedis and quadians start with neglecting the prophecy......... so conflicts start from the very beginning............... and this is not a religious forum so i can't comment or argue ........ otherwise i have enough grip on cristianity....hinduism..... to convert someone knowledgeable and rational person....... but as i said it is not a place to talk on such topics........ and plz refrain from commenting on such topics that you don't understand .......
> 
> regards
> Azhar


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## jetti

safriz said:


> No no...you dont understand..
> For being a Muslim you need to have few basic beliefs....The most important are Belief in Allah and Belief in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)..Ahmedis dont have belief in Prophet Muhammed (PBUH),so technically they dont fit the bill.


A car has 4 doors 4 wheels steering engine and goes from place a to place b.
Now if I put only 2 doors instead of 4 then you still call it a car but classify it as coupe.
Similarly ahmadis believe in Allah and Mohammad as it's prophet. But the only difference is they say there can be others after. So for this difference you can't stop calling them Muslims. Ahmadis can always say that Sunnis are not Muslims because Sunnis don't believe in ahmadi version. Correct?


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## Safriz

jetti said:


> A car has 4 doors 4 wheels steering engine and goes from place a to place b.
> Now if I put only 2 doors instead of 4 then you still call it a car but classify it as coupe.
> Similarly ahmadis believe in Allah and Mohammad as it's prophet. But the only difference is they say there can be others after. So for this difference you can't stop calling them Muslims. Ahmadis can always say that Sunnis are not Muslims because Sunnis don't believe in ahmadi version. Correct?


Lame at theology? are we? 
This is the lamest analogy ever...


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## Irfan Baloch

crimemaster_gogo said:


> worst thing ever created by man is "religion" its the moot point for all fools to fight and die for.



I respect your view but check this out
the biggest murderers of Modren time like Hiter, Stalin Sadam etc were all Atheists and unbelviers (you might point out towards sadams' praying picture but that was a sham as he and his party was as godless as you can get)

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## mymeaningislion

jetti said:


> Huh.. You are contradicting yourself in line 1. Do you respect ahmadi thoughts if you want to preach to ahmadi to become a Sunni / Shia? Do you respect their view that there was another prophet?
> If you had a grip on all religions then you would not be areligious person. Way what a quote



gentleman first i was refraining my self to be grabbed into such discussion but for your little info 

1- first we muslims believe in One God that is ALLAHA (SWT) and believe that Muhammad(PBUH) is last prophet and messenger.....and we follow his teaching which are same since form Hazrat Adam and hazrat Hawa(eve).............. and we believe in all 4 books , angels , Other Prophecies, and day of judgment. 

now to become a muslim you have to accept all of these, in these, core things that are believe in Allaha (SWT) and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)...... now if you miss any of point then your faith is incomplete so you cant be said as muslim simple logic for a non muslim like you.......... 


let me give you an example if i pray five time a day in mosque and don't worship idols and only believe in Allaha(SWT) and Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) then after this i come to you and say ........ i am hindu.......you will punch me on my face......and will say "don't make me fool....... you don't believe what i believe and my religion teachings........so shut up".......... i know that this will be the result so now if any ordinary hindu or even pandit won't accept me as hindu worshiper because i dont believe what their teaching believe so why we muslims will allow someone who negates what we believe...... and you know if you are not ignorrant that all the maor religion are basically based on books( because the core principles are written in it ).....in our case it is HOLY Quran.............if any one .......let me negate your spirtual books teachings and yet claim that i am truth.......


WOULD YOU ALLOW ME AS A FOLLOWER OF HINDU RELIGION?

Answer is BIG NO............ 

Same is the Case With US

Basically Qadianis and Ahmedies negates basic principles of Islamic Teachings....... SO WE WON"T ALLOW SOME ONE TO USE MUSLIM TERM if someone don't believe what Quran Says............

IF you have ever spent some time on Comparitive Religion Studies You would know the logic .......... i have tried hard to make it simple ....... i will request all persons to try to understand and then respond...... if you can't take it .........then plz leave it.......................

thats from my side................ if any question plz Ask................but with the intention for knowledge.......not mocking........

Regards

Azhar


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## Don Jaguar

*Schoolyard violence turns ugly: Classmate, teacher beat 7th-grader to death*







The teacher and the student abused and slapped him in the presence of a number of other students, to &#8216;teach him a lesson&#8217; over the complaint made to the headmaster.

*FAISALABAD: Schoolyard bullying proved fatal in a government school near Faisalabad with the brutal murder of a seventh-grade student on Friday.*

Muhammad Ahsan was beaten to death allegedly by a classmate and his uncle, who also happened to be the physical training instructor of Government High School in Chiniot district.

District Police Officer (DPO) Chiniot Shehzad Akbar confirmed the incident, identifying the culprits as Ahsan&#8217;s class fellow Muhammad Rizwan and teacher Zafar Ahmed.

Friday&#8217;s incident was not the first: Ahsan had been preyed upon before by Rizwan and Zafar &#8211; but the last of these incidents proved fatal, according to a complaint lodged by Ahsan&#8217;s father Muhammad Sarfraz, a resident of resident of Chak No147-JB.

According to Sarfraz, his son was a bright student and was admired by his fellow students and teachers. He added that, out of envy, Rizwan, who belongs to the same village as them, repeatedly tortured Ahsan, in connivance with his uncle, who was part of the school&#8217;s faculty.

Zafar would often reprimand and bully Ahsan on arbitrary pretexts during drill exercise periods, Sarfraz alleged.

He further complained that they had informed the headmaster of the school as well as the class in-charge of the PT teacher&#8217;s inappropriate attitude, yet no action was taken.

Instead, Ahsan faced intensified confrontation once Zafar and Rizwan learnt of the complaint.

Ironically, this increased bullying ultimately led to Ahsan&#8217;s death.

The details, as narrated by Ahsan&#8217;s father, are heart-wrenching.

Sarfraz alleged that Rizwan intercepted Ahsan at noon on Friday and abused and slapped him in the presence of a number of other students, to &#8216;teach him a lesson&#8217; over the complaint made to the headmaster. Zafar, it is claimed, joined in on the beating, and the two are alleged to have punched and kicked Ahsan even after he had fallen unconscious.

Meanwhile, DPO Akbar said, Sarfraz arrived at the school on Friday to inform the headmaster about the latest incidents against his son, only to witness the incident.

When Sarfraz rushed to his son, he had already breathed his last.

The PT teacher told the headmaster and relatives of the deceased that the child died due to cardiac arrest.

Earlier reports suggested that Zafar had taken Ahsan to the hospital and escaped afterwards.

Classmate arrested

Rajoiya Sayeda police have registered a case under sections 302/34 of the Pakistan Penal Code against Rizwan and Zafar.

SHO Rajoiya Sayeda Khalid Rasheed told The Express Tribune that Rizwan has been arrested while the raids are being conducted to arrest Zafar, who is still at large.

The body has been sent to the District Headquarters (DHQ) Hospital Chiniot for postmortem to determine the cause of death as well as nature of injuries, the SHO added.

A special team has been constituted to probe into Ahsan&#8217;s murder and determine the positions of the culprits who mercilessly tortured the schoolboy to death.

Villagers, family protest

Soon after the incident, hundreds of villagers and Ahsan&#8217;s relatives, carrying the deceased&#8217;s body, staged a demonstration and blocked the Faisalabad-Sargodha Road.

On the assurance of the police, the demonstrators dispersed peacefully.

(Read: Corporal punishment &#8211; Spare the rod, spoil the child?)

Schoolyard violence turns ugly: Classmate, teacher beat 7th-grader to death &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## xataxsata

*Pakistan - Minority MPA protests banning Jesus Christ in text messages*

Imtiaz Ali

Tuesday, November 22, 2011


A Pakistan Peoples Partys (PPP) minority MPA on Monday protested vociferously against the inclusion of Jesus Christ in a list of banned words by the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (PTA) and said it was an attempt to undermine religious freedom in the country.

Recently, the PTA issued a list of supposedly offensive or obscene words that cell phone users would not be allowed to use in text messages. 

The inclusion of Jesus Christ in that list has infuriated many people from the Christian community. 

Saleem Khurshid Khokhar, on a point of order, drew the attention of the provincial assembly towards the PTAs list of banned words. He sat on the floor in front of the speaker of the house in protest and demanded that a resolution be presented to condemn this act. However, several ministers pacified him by assuring him that they would raise the issue with the federal government for action.

Khokhar said that the PTAs act was a conspiracy against the government and Muslims. He recalled that when a Christian had torched the Holy Quran in the US, the Christian community in Pakistan protested against it. Now the PAT, by banning Jesus Christ from being texted, was acting against religious freedom in the country.

Law Minister Ayaz Soomro, Local Government Minister Agha Siraj Durrani, Archives Minister Rafiq Engineer, Power Minister Shazia Marri, Youth Affairs Minister Faisal Sabzwari and Deputy Speaker Shehla Raza assured the MPA that they would raise the issue with the federal government to rectify the situation. The ministers said that religious sentiments had been hurt by the PTAs act and assured that they respected all religions. They also recalled the famous August 11, 1947 speech of Quaid-e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, in which he talked of equal treatment of minorities.

Speaker Nisar Ahmed Khuhro regretted the minority legislators behaviour and observed that there was no need to protest in such a manner.

The PPP minority MPAs resolution, which was deferred for another day, reads: The Sindh Assembly condemns the act of the PTA to block the sacred words of the Christian community Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus. And recommends to the federal government to kindly take action and conduct an inquiry against the PTA and remove these words from the banned list.

Minority MPA protests banning Jesus Christ in text messages

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## Birbal

Is Khuda or Allah also on the list?

I mean saying "Jesus Christ" in America is often mild swearing ("invoking the lord's name in vain"), but there's plenty of legitimate reasons you would text "Jesus Christ".


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## punisher

What kinda crap that PTA did.


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## Ahmad

Birbal said:


> Is Khuda or Allah also on the list?
> 
> I mean saying "Jesus Christ" in America is often mild swearing ("invoking the lord's name in vain"), but there's plenty of legitimate reasons you would text "Jesus Christ".



allah & khuda are the same thing and is widely used among many muslims.


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## pak-marine

Has PTA bothered explaining in what wisdom they thought banning jesus christ .. sheer stupid performance

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## alphamale

i think Christians of pakistan deserve a explanation from PTA on this. what were they thinking while deciding the list.


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## Safriz

they can still used "yassoo maseeh"


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## Karachiite

This ban is useless and has already created an outrage. No wonder why this text message ban has been shelved. No cell phone provider is going to be stupid enough to implement the ban.

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## Emmie

I hate PTA for this.... The list is getting too controversial I doubt any ban.

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## Evil Flare

well the deal is already collapsed

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## SuperDoper

Somebody help me. Give me a Pope's list. You know what I am saying?

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## vijayjha

why these kind of things happen only on muslim majority country?
i mean in a christian majority "or any other " country there is no such ban targeting other religion


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## Areesh

PTA has already decided to withdraw it's order of SMS filtering. 

PTA Decides to Withdraw SMS Filtration Orders

So all you drama queens should keep this minority persecution rant for some other thread.

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## Devil Soul

Case Closed

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## Karachiite

In my book tracing the origins of the word, Mohajir, I wrote, *"the word Mohajir (capital M) is vaguely traced to the 1970s and 80s, when the persecution of people of Indian ancestry gained momentum.** It simply stated, when the Punjabis started calling them "HindustaaNRaan", and the Pathans and Sindhis labelled them as "Panah Guzeer" and "Makars", the immigrants started calling themselves "Mohajirs", since they cannot really relate with the other four ethnicities. *

Now, the word with the capital M has come to symbolise, correctly or incorrectly, all people who came from minority provinces of India or are the descendants of those immigrants. For me however the word "Mohajir" is not an honorific title or something to complain about - it's simply a statement of being from somewhere else. In fact, "Ansaar" is a more positive word which means "those who help" which is something similar to democratic ideals vs democratic party. Similarly when the white Americans were searching for all kinds of nomenclature for African Americans (Negros, coloured people, and worse) these African Americans chose to call themselves "Black" Americans. 

But there's a serious identity crisis within the Mohajir community be it a general in the army or a 'babu' at the foreign office, or a butcher in Orangi town -* it's a community in search of its roots because in all 'practicality' and there's a strong feeling that the 'Mohajirs' had been rejected by other ethnicities in Pakistan. Later, Altaf Hussain, the man who is credited to have given the Mohajirs a somewhat-political identity in a book titled "Safar-e-Zindagi" published in 1989, described Mohajirs as "those who migrated from smaller provinces of undivided Hindustan to Pakistan".*

The Partition was something no-one really wanted and it only became inevitable when the Congress leadership rejected the Cabinet Mission Plan after initially accepting it.

Jinnah, the Quaid-e-Azam, could do no more than to console his countrymen, "We have been squeezed in as much as was possible and the latest blow that we have received is the Award of the Boundary Commission. It is an unjust, incomprehensible and even perverse Award. It may be wrong, unjust and perverse; and it may not be a judicial but a political award, but we have agreed to abide by it and it is binding upon us. As honourable people we must abide by it. It may be our misfortune but we must bear up this one more blow with fortitude, courage and hope." *Mohajirs migrated from as far as Calcutta, Malabar, Aurangabad, Amritsar, Patna and Ahmadabad and other Muslim minority provinces leaving not just "everything" but "everyone" behind. *

Pakistan originally envisioned by Iqbal had no Bangladesh but only consisted of what is Pakistan now. The leadership of *Pakistan later made sure that Pakistan would transform from Jinnah's Pakistan to Iqbal's Pakistan resulting in yet another partition that ruined the ideological basis on which the first Partition took place. And that is why the 1971 setback hurt the Mohajirs.*

*And there are warnings more such partitions are likely if the status quo does not change. Many Mohajirs, Sindhis, the Baloch, Pathans, and even Kashmiris will reach the point of no return. Islam could not eventually become a unifying factor for East and West Pakistan. *

The 18th Amendment had been a good start of a new social contract which is not ground-breaking, but a start nevertheless. 


*But to save, Pakistan we need full provincial autonomy and nothing else*. *We should realise the gravity of situation in Baluchistan, Pakhtunkhua and Sindh where million's are dying of hunger and the frustration against the state is at its height. Perhaps we need to take a breather, reflect on the situation, consider all our options, and then have a polite national debate, without the use of force, riots, Rangers, or street power, to decide if and how we can live together, or if we should go our separate ways. *

During his rule, *Zulfikar Ali Bhutto began to crush his opposition within Sindh. He started "Sindhisation" campaign and introduced the Language Bill in 1973-1974 making Sindhi language compulsory for all students in Sindh, a move which caused rioting in Sindh. During nationalisation move, Mohajirs believe only the businesses they owned were targeted. Similarly, they say the quota system deprived the deserving Mohajir the right to get into universities and jobs and hundreds of less educated and less competent people were appointed as schoolteachers.*

*The army inspired action against Mohajirs in the 1990s led to an exodus of many talented families from Karachi/Hyderabad. Hundreds and thousands of educated boys and girls were forced to migrate. They now feel secure and have no desire to return, and that leads to the impending problem with Karachi and Pakistan in general - the loss of valuable human capital. In what was called "Operation Clean-up", more than 15,000 Mohajirs were murdered in extra-judicial killings in Karachi alone. Women were raped and were even seen carrying the bodies of their dead male relatives. The operation also ruined the economy of Karachi. *

In an interesting study I carried out about Mohajir identity at various colleges and educational institutions for my upcoming book tracing the roots of Mohajir political movement and identity, *73% of adult student's identified themselves as Mohajir first and Muslim second*. This shows that Mohajir identity has evolved through the years and has transformed from being a right-wing Jamaat-e-Islami or JUI supported movement to a centrist or a left-wing ethno-political identity which surpasses religious identity. The MQM - which has now transformed into 'Muthida' but is in fact a Mohajir-centric party made to safeguard the rights of Mohajirs in Urban Sindh - is a clear example of this new identity. 

*And while the word Mohajir remains controversial and often used by lower classes, the middle and upper classes in the community tend to classify themselves as "Urdu Speaking". For them, the term Mohajir represents the "hateful past". *

During my research work, I met MQM Rabbita Committee's Kunwar Khalid Younas - one of the soft faces of MQM - who has been writing in English for years defending the MQM and coining or using terms like the "Urdu Speaking Community" or USC. But one sub-community, the Memons, do not agree, because Urdu is not their first language. 

*So where does the Mohajir identity stand today, and has it become weaker or stronger with time? Statistics of ethnic violence show that in a very polarised Karachi, Mohajir nationalism or identity has become stronger, except in the middle class. *

The real issues that Pakistan faces today are poverty, illiteracy, and violation of human rights. And the people of Pakistan must realise that these are the issues political decisions should be based on. *Mohajir nationalism will only weaken when the sense of equality and justice is restored in the society.* 

Insight: Mohajir identity by Ali K Chishti


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## 53fd

The Urdu speakers in Karachi, as well as the Pakhtuns in Karachi are engaged in ethnic warfare, because the MQM & ANP (with the blessing of the PPP) want it like that. I am a 'Mohajir'/Urdu speaker with my whole family in Karachi, I was born in Karachi (but raised in Punjab), I go to Karachi once or twice a year, & I know all the in's-&-out's of Karachi. The situation of the in-flux of Pakhtuns in Karachi today is similar to the situation in the past when the 'Mohajirs' flooded Karachi & Hyderabad, replaced the Sindhis & became the majority population of the city. The Urdu speakers were no doubt discriminated & attacked, & then Altaf Hussain flooded arms & ammunition in the city of Karachi when he armed the 'Mohajirs'. A 'pretty similar' situation has transpired in Karachi today, but the Pakhtuns today have replaced the 'Mohajirs' of the past, & the 'Mohajirs' today have replaced the Sindhis of the past. I have been brought up in Punjab, I speak fluent Punjabi, I have grown up around Punjabi & Pakhtun people, & I know they are not any different to me than Urdu speakers are. I know that this problem of ethnic warfare is largely limited to the city of Karachi, but it isn't as pervasive in other parts of the country. 

I have created a thread talking about the issues you have raised in your thread. Here is the link to it:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/142399-positive-aspect-wot-pakistan-overlooked.html

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## 53fd

There is no 'Mohajir' identity today. There is Pakistani identity. Mohajirs are the people that do Hijrat (migration), the past two generations have not done any migration, so there is no such thing as 'Mohajirs' or 'Mohajir identity' in the last two generations of Pakistan. Even the Europeans were immigrants in America, but after a couple of generations, they stopped calling themselves immigrants & started calling themselves Americans. The Urdu speakers today are the most prosperous ethnic group in Pakistan today, & we are proud to be representing Pakistan & everything it has given us.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

I do not like this evolution into "mohajir" identity. Mohajirs should have obsorbed into sindhi culture and identity...But they resisted natural process of absorption and maintained distinct identity and still follow cultures of UP and Bihar...therefore they are still called mohajirs. Take example of balochs, they came to sindh in large numbers, adopted sindhi langauge and culture, and are nowadays very important sindhis e.g jatoi, mari, bhuto, chandio, talpur, zardari, laghari etc.

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## Doctor09

if you want to live like a sindhi, muhajir,balochi,pathan or kashmiri and you think its your identity then live with it but you know what will be the outcome ? destruction a total destruction of Pakistan and our identity ...
these things will break us in small isolated group and ultimately it will weaken us our unity will fall apart and we will try to kill each other on even small disputes .....
*But guys whatever your identity is BUT my identity is Pakistani only Pakistani and i feel proud to be called Pakistani *

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## Sinnerman108

bilalhaider said:


> There is no 'Mohajir' identity today. There is Pakistani identity. Mohajirs are the people that do Hijrat (migration), the past two generations have done any migration, so there is no such thing as 'Mohajirs' or 'Mohajir identity' in the last two generations of Pakistan. Even the Europeans were immigrants in America, but after a couple of generations, they stopped calling themselves immigrants & started calling themselves Americans. The Urdu speakers in Pakistan today are the most prosperous ethnic group in Pakistan today, & we are proud to be representing Pakistan & everything it has given us. Period.



I like this boy.
he is sensible and he is humble.

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## Pioneerfirst

the Ethnic Identity is political slogan.The politician realize us that they are from us.indeed they are responsible for all the blood shed in Karachi. 
How many MNAs,MPAs and political leaders have been killed? Answer is may be 1 or 2 but how many commons?

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## Sinnerman108

Karachiite said:


> In my book tracing the origins of the word, Mohajir, I wrote, *"the word Mohajir (capital M) is vaguely traced to the 1970s and 80s, when the persecution of people of Indian ancestry gained momentum.** It simply stated, when the Punjabis started calling them "HindustaaNRaan", and the Pathans and Sindhis labelled them as "Panah Guzeer" and "Makars", the immigrants started calling themselves "Mohajirs", since they cannot really relate with the other four ethnicities. *
> 
> Now, the word with the capital M has come to symbolise, correctly or incorrectly, all people who came from minority provinces of India or are the descendants of those immigrants. For me however the word "Mohajir" is not an honorific title or something to complain about - it's simply a statement of being from somewhere else. In fact, "Ansaar" is a more positive word which means "those who help" which is something similar to democratic ideals vs democratic party. Similarly when the white Americans were searching for all kinds of nomenclature for African Americans (Negros, coloured people, and worse) these African Americans chose to call themselves "Black" Americans.
> 
> But there's a serious identity crisis within the Mohajir community be it a general in the army or a 'babu' at the foreign office, or a butcher in Orangi town -* it's a community in search of its roots because in all 'practicality' and there's a strong feeling that the 'Mohajirs' had been rejected by other ethnicities in Pakistan. Later, Altaf Hussain, the man who is credited to have given the Mohajirs a somewhat-political identity in a book titled "Safar-e-Zindagi" published in 1989, described Mohajirs as "those who migrated from smaller provinces of undivided Hindustan to Pakistan".*
> 
> The Partition was something no-one really wanted and it only became inevitable when the Congress leadership rejected the Cabinet Mission Plan after initially accepting it.
> 
> Jinnah, the Quaid-e-Azam, could do no more than to console his countrymen, "We have been squeezed in as much as was possible and the latest blow that we have received is the Award of the Boundary Commission. It is an unjust, incomprehensible and even perverse Award. It may be wrong, unjust and perverse; and it may not be a judicial but a political award, but we have agreed to abide by it and it is binding upon us. As honourable people we must abide by it. It may be our misfortune but we must bear up this one more blow with fortitude, courage and hope." *Mohajirs migrated from as far as Calcutta, Malabar, Aurangabad, Amritsar, Patna and Ahmadabad and other Muslim minority provinces leaving not just "everything" but "everyone" behind. *
> 
> Pakistan originally envisioned by Iqbal had no Bangladesh but only consisted of what is Pakistan now. The leadership of *Pakistan later made sure that Pakistan would transform from Jinnah's Pakistan to Iqbal's Pakistan resulting in yet another partition that ruined the ideological basis on which the first Partition took place. And that is why the 1971 setback hurt the Mohajirs.*
> 
> *And there are warnings more such partitions are likely if the status quo does not change. Many Mohajirs, Sindhis, the Baloch, Pathans, and even Kashmiris will reach the point of no return. Islam could not eventually become a unifying factor for East and West Pakistan. *
> 
> The 18th Amendment had been a good start of a new social contract which is not ground-breaking, but a start nevertheless.
> 
> 
> *But to save, Pakistan we need full provincial autonomy and nothing else*. *We should realise the gravity of situation in Baluchistan, Pakhtunkhua and Sindh where million's are dying of hunger and the frustration against the state is at its height. Perhaps we need to take a breather, reflect on the situation, consider all our options, and then have a polite national debate, without the use of force, riots, Rangers, or street power, to decide if and how we can live together, or if we should go our separate ways. *
> 
> During his rule, *Zulfikar Ali Bhutto began to crush his opposition within Sindh. He started "Sindhisation" campaign and introduced the Language Bill in 1973-1974 making Sindhi language compulsory for all students in Sindh, a move which caused rioting in Sindh. During nationalisation move, Mohajirs believe only the businesses they owned were targeted. Similarly, they say the quota system deprived the deserving Mohajir the right to get into universities and jobs and hundreds of less educated and less competent people were appointed as schoolteachers.*
> 
> *The army inspired action against Mohajirs in the 1990s led to an exodus of many talented families from Karachi/Hyderabad. Hundreds and thousands of educated boys and girls were forced to migrate. They now feel secure and have no desire to return, and that leads to the impending problem with Karachi and Pakistan in general - the loss of valuable human capital. In what was called "Operation Clean-up", more than 15,000 Mohajirs were murdered in extra-judicial killings in Karachi alone. Women were raped and were even seen carrying the bodies of their dead male relatives. The operation also ruined the economy of Karachi. *
> 
> In an interesting study I carried out about Mohajir identity at various colleges and educational institutions for my upcoming book tracing the roots of Mohajir political movement and identity, *73% of adult student's identified themselves as Mohajir first and Muslim second*. This shows that Mohajir identity has evolved through the years and has transformed from being a right-wing Jamaat-e-Islami or JUI supported movement to a centrist or a left-wing ethno-political identity which surpasses religious identity. The MQM - which has now transformed into 'Muthida' but is in fact a Mohajir-centric party made to safeguard the rights of Mohajirs in Urban Sindh - is a clear example of this new identity.
> 
> *And while the word Mohajir remains controversial and often used by lower classes, the middle and upper classes in the community tend to classify themselves as "Urdu Speaking". For them, the term Mohajir represents the "hateful past". *
> 
> During my research work, I met MQM Rabbita Committee's Kunwar Khalid Younas - one of the soft faces of MQM - who has been writing in English for years defending the MQM and coining or using terms like the "Urdu Speaking Community" or USC. But one sub-community, the Memons, do not agree, because Urdu is not their first language.
> 
> *So where does the Mohajir identity stand today, and has it become weaker or stronger with time? Statistics of ethnic violence show that in a very polarised Karachi, Mohajir nationalism or identity has become stronger, except in the middle class. *
> 
> The real issues that Pakistan faces today are poverty, illiteracy, and violation of human rights. And the people of Pakistan must realise that these are the issues political decisions should be based on. *Mohajir nationalism will only weaken when the sense of equality and justice is restored in the society.*
> 
> Insight: Mohajir identity by Ali K Chishti



This is an ill informed article and has many inaccuracies.

1. The article refers to "Mohajirs" as those who belong to Hyderabad , UP, Delhi, Bihar regions, but not those who migrated from Punjab and Haryana region.
Truth of the matter is , People from Punjab / Haryana even within india are many times mocked, 
People from Punjab are usually looked down at and discriminated against by the "urdu" speakers who sketched their identity from the royal courts.

2. If what the OP has posted is correct, why isn't there similar identity problems in the rest of Pakistan ? Why is this problem amplified only in Karachi and Hyderabad ?

3. People who are from central India were always alien to NWFP, and historically looked at that part of the country as a far far outpost which shall never interfere with their lives. 
Just have a look at the name NWFP, and one will understand how the people will be perceived.

4. If we look before 1970 within the Pakistani history, we will see that culture, economics, trade was dominated by the immigrants, however once other people like Pathans, Balochs and Punjabis came up to par, the immigrants could not let go of the control. 
Remember Karachi produces NOTHING, it's economics is based upon trading what is produced in rest of the country.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Mohajir (urdu spekers) are living very peacefully all over Pakistan, just like me. they do not face any of such a problem like being killed or torcher by any one else or by any community. so why in Karachi .... 

better to name thread Mutehda(MQM) Identity rather then Muhajir.

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## Areesh

The article would have made sense if it would have been written in 60's or 70's or 80's or even 90's. The stupid author is at least 10-15 years late.

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## DANGER-ZONE

let them live in their world of Muhajirs .... we are all Pakistanis here. 

beside there is an interesting off topic thing that After Zardari Support Jalsa most of their own party workers and members are bashing great Altaf bhai. They have made a history supporting the corruptest person of Pakistan that no other party ever did even ANP, i guess. they use to say " yarr altaf bhai ne nak katwa de"
they are going down soon .


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## notsuperstitious

salman108 said:


> Truth of the matter is , People from Punjab / Haryana even within india are many times mocked,
> People from Punjab are usually looked down at and discriminated against by the "urdu" speakers who sketched their identity from the royal courts.


 
That is a factually inaccurate statement about India. Any north Indian will tell you Punjabis are probably the most influential, affluent and respected community, even though they are relatively small in numbers. To say they are looked down upon or mocked is a statement born in ignorance.

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## Sinnerman108

fateh71 said:


> That is a factually inaccurate statement about India. Any north Indian will tell you Punjabis are probably the most influential, affluent and respected community, even though they are relatively small in numbers. To say they are looked down upon or mocked is a statement born in ignorance.



So you are saying that Punjabis are even respected in say Hyderabad ? or anywhere south of hyderabad ?

I know for a fact, that there is a strong disconnect North South.

People from UP / Delhi even Bihar have had strong prejudice which is fair in some respects ( education, art, literature )
but in a lot of cases that historic prejudice has turned into Discrimination and hate.

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## Devil Soul

Woman kills, attempts to cook husband

Updated 17 minutes ago

KARACHI: Police on Thursday arrested a woman who had killed her husband and was attempting to cook his body parts after he planned to marry another woman without her permission.	

The police arrested Zainab Bibi, 32, and her nephew Zaheer, 22, in the Shah Faisal colony of Pakistan's southern megacity Karachi, and recovered the bowl of flesh she planned to cook, said police chief for the area Nadeem Baig.	

"They killed Ahmed Abbas, Zainab's husband, and chopped his body into pieces and were about to cook the flesh in a bowl," he told AFP, adding that the knife with which they killed the man had been recovered. Television networks showed gruesome footage of the human flesh in a bowl ready for the stove.	

A neighbour had alerted the police and investigations were ongoing, said Baig.	

"There could be two factors behind her intention to cook the husband. One is to destroy the evidence and the other could be her immense hatred against him," over his plan to marry another woman, he said.

According to family law in the Islamic country, a man has get permission from his first wife before his second marriage, but the law is rarely observed. (AFP)

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## Perceptron

salman108 said:


> I like this boy.
> he is sensible and he is humble.


But unfortunately, out of touch with reality. Karachi's been a bloodbath and a war-zone where the stakes are too high for anyone to back off at the highest level of politics. It has seen too many fault-lines at various stages of history leading to increasing and violent bloodbaths, the latest being the Mohajir-Pashtun divide. The coming of PTI and Imran Khan will only exacerbate the growing fear among Mohajirs, and another Jinnahpur incident and an Operation Clean-up is evident, if they forcibly try to go against the grain of what the Mohajirs stand for as a community.


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## Don Jaguar

bilalhaider said:


> The Urdu speakers in Karachi, as well as the Pakhtuns in Karachi are engaged in ethnic warfare, because the MQM & ANP (with the blessing of the PPP) want it like that. I am a 'Mohajir'/Urdu speaker with my whole family in Karachi, I was born in Karachi (*but raised in Punjab*)



In which city?


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## StandForInsaf

I believe calling them mohajirs now is not a good thing , they are urdu speaking sindhis. Ware-fare could only be stopped by Deweaponization and providing full justice to all citizens of city including Urdu speakings , pashto speaking and sindhi speaking with out any prejudice .


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## K-Xeroid

, Karachi is one of the most populated city ,and still peoples are migrating here frm different areas of pakistan, Now it has become neccesary to take major steps and stop the continous immigration... Overloading this city causing very much trouble here.


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## StandForInsaf

Android K-Zero said:


> , Karachi is one of the most populated city ,and still peoples are migrating here frm different areas of pakistan, Now it has become neccesary to take major steps and stop the continous immigration... Overloading this city causing very much trouble here.



Stopping immigrations is not possible because constitution see all its citizens equal so every one can live in any part of Pakistan.
Overloading problem could be solved by dividing Karachi to different cities to make administration easy may be its just an idea.

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## K-Xeroid

StandForInsaf said:


> Stopping immigrations is not possible because constitution see all its citizens equal so every one can live in any part of Pakistan.
> Overloading problem could be solved by dividing Karachi to different cities to make administration easy may be its just an idea.


Ah! population is increasing more then area .... Dividing karachi mey increase there problem at public level, Here city management don't have guts .. I mean CDGK .... There are many other cities in Pakistan and sindh why not immgrating their rather than already overloaded karachi.... consititution must have to change according to conditions.


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## 53fd

Perceptron said:


> But unfortunately, out of touch with reality. Karachi's been a bloodbath and a war-zone where the stakes are too high for anyone to back off at the highest level of politics. It has seen too many fault-lines at various stages of history leading to increasing and violent bloodbaths, the latest being the Mohajir-Pashtun divide. The coming of PTI and Imran Khan will only exacerbate the growing fear among Mohajirs, and another Jinnahpur incident and an Operation Clean-up is evident, if they forcibly try to go against the grain of what the Mohajirs stand for as a community.



I'm out of touch? I belong to a 'Mohajir' family, was born in Karachi, go to Karachi once or twice a year, have my entire family & relatives scattered in different parts all over Karachi, & I know all the ins & outs of the city. Karachiites joke that (Clifton, Defense) are the doosra side of Kala Pull, & Karachi is on the other side. Karachi is completely different which ever area you're located in. I know the neighborhood politics in various localities of Karachi.

Anyways, there is a huge difference between 'Mohajirs' living in Punjab & KP; & the 'Mohajirs' living in Karachi. In Karachi, many people place their regional & religious identity over their national one; whereas this phenomena is not found across most of Pakistan. Karachi is a city where political parties exploit the emotions of easily influenced people, & play ethnic warfare.


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## SQ8

Agree with Bilal.. 
What mohajir identity? and the Mohajir's of 47 weren't all urdu-speakers.. a part of them were from Indian Punjab as well.
The Mohajir's are now mostly dead and buried.. what is left are people being used for political gains by a fat thug against drug lords and land mafia.. its a turf war disguised as ethnic tension.

Urdu speakers along with Bengalis dominated the early leadership of Pakistan due to more of them being educated..simple.
Ayub khan in his racist stupor removed the Bengali's and remove the urdu speaking "control" over the economics of Karachi.
In an effort to consolidate his power base, Bhutto tried the same.. only to be rebuffed .

Racist politics are common in nations that are integrated only through fear or force.. 
remove either,and they will break apart..
Jinnah( oddly a Mohajir by definition) envisioned this way before and tried to form a common identity but was allowed to die by racially motivated people.With him died the only leader ever sincere with Pakistan. The people who most supported the Idea of Pakistan ...the Bengalis were also alienated by racially motivated people which India took advantage of. Currently another ethnic group is being alienated by Racially motivated people which India is taking advantage of.
In the end, if people wish to have Sindhustra, Pakhtunistan, BalochMakran,Jinnahpur or serakistan.. all they have to do is continue with their trend of holding on to bigoted views passed on. Views which were propagated by people who wished for their own profit and no one else's.

I see a glimmer of hope in PTI as they have so far refused to bank on any single Race or nationalist tune..
Time will tell if that hope is well founded.

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## StandForInsaf

Android K-Zero said:


> Ah! population is increasing more then area .... Dividing karachi mey increase there problem at public level, Here city management don't have guts .. I mean CDGK .... There are many other cities in Pakistan and sindh why not immgrating their rather than already overloaded karachi.... consititution must have to change according to conditions.



If they change it to stop immigrations it will become discriminatory and controversial because of encouraging no go areas , i dont think this is a valid solution . Increase prices of land people will feel difficult to move to over populated areas.


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## 53fd

Karachi must definitely have better adminstration, it is an extremely important city, & it cannot be left in the hands of thugs that play ethnic warfare. Not only Karachi, but every city of Pakistan must have better administration than it currently has.


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## K-Xeroid

StandForInsaf said:


> If they change it to stop immigrations it will become discriminatory and controversial because of encouraging no go areas , i dont think this is a valid solution . Increase prices of land people will feel difficult to move to over populated areas.


Ok don't need change..... Things will continue like this..... 
Carry on Karachi...................


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## StandForInsaf

bilalhaider said:


> Karachi must definitely have better adminstration, it is an extremely important city, & it cannot be left in the hands of thugs that play ethnic warfare. Not only Karachi, but every city of Pakistan must have better administration than it currently has.



Indeed its very important city , it should De-Weaponized it so it may prosper quickly.



Android K-Zero said:


> Ok don't need change..... Things will continue like this.....
> Carry on Karachi...................



There is need of change ofc.


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## tamygu

What exactly is Mohajir identity.The people who really fought tooth n nail for pakistan didnt even go there. and for some 0.2% of population who went there ended up neither here nor there.So one can really sum up mohajir identity as :*neither here nor there.*


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## 53fd

Santro said:


> Agree with Bilal..
> What mohajir identity? and the Mohajir's of 47 weren't all urdu-speakers.. a part of them were from Indian Punjab as well.
> The Mohajir's are now mostly dead and buried.. what is left are people being used for political gains by a fat thug against drug lords and land mafia.. its a turf war disguised as ethnic tension.
> 
> Urdu speakers along with Bengalis dominated the early leadership of Pakistan due to more of them being educated..simple.
> Ayub khan in his racist stupor removed the Bengali's and remove the urdu speaking "control" over the economics of Karachi.
> In an effort to consolidate his power base, Bhutto tried the same.. only to be rebuffed .
> 
> Racist politics are common in nations that are integrated only through fear or force..
> remove either,and they will break apart..
> Jinnah( oddly a Mohajir by definition) envisioned this way before and tried to form a common identity but was allowed to die by racially motivated people.With him died the only leader ever sincere with Pakistan. The people who most supported the Idea of Pakistan ...the Bengalis were also alienated by racially motivated people which India took advantage of. Currently another ethnic group is being alienated by Racially motivated people which India is taking advantage of.
> In the end, if people wish to have Sindhustra, Pakhtunistan, BalochMakran,Jinnahpur or serakistan.. all they have to do is continue with their trend of holding on to bigoted views passed on. Views which were propagated by people who wished for their own profit and no one else's.
> 
> I see a glimmer of hope in PTI as they have so far refused to bank on any single Race or nationalist tune..
> Time will tell if that hope is well founded.



Karachiites are proud Pakistani citizens, there can be no doubt about that. There is no current separatist movement in Karachi (or Sindh). But many Karachiites are definitely guilty of giving preference to their ethnic & religious identity over their national one. It these preferences were changed, the problems of Karachi would be resolved. This phenomena is not seen in the rest of Pakistan for the most part.


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## SQ8

tamygu said:


> What exactly is Mohajir identity.The people who really fought tooth n nail for pakistan didnt even go there. and for some 0.2% of population who went there ended up neither here nor there.So one can really sum up mohajir identity as :*neither here nor there.*



??
How sure are you that those people did not go there?
part of my family were die hard congress supporters who were close friends with the Nehru family.
Most of them are now in Pakistan and love their country. Those that stayed behind (of which very few are left in India as the rest left for greener pastures) are paupers compared to their kith and kin that went to Pakistan.
These people have no identity in India, they wail Vande mataram more than any other Indian in an effort to be recognized.
So far that has borne them very little fruit.

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## American Pakistani

Santro said:


> Agree with Bilal..
> What mohajir identity? and the Mohajir's of 47 weren't all urdu-speakers.. a part of them were from Indian Punjab as well.
> The Mohajir's are now mostly dead and buried.. what is left are people being used for political gains by a fat thug against drug lords and land mafia.. its a turf war disguised as ethnic tension.
> 
> Urdu speakers along with Bengalis dominated the early leadership of Pakistan due to more of them being educated..simple.
> Ayub khan in his racist stupor removed the Bengali's and remove the urdu speaking "control" over the economics of Karachi.
> In an effort to consolidate his power base, Bhutto tried the same.. only to be rebuffed .
> 
> Racist politics are common in nations that are integrated only through fear or force..
> remove either,and they will break apart..
> Jinnah( oddly a Mohajir by definition) envisioned this way before and tried to form a common identity but was allowed to die by racially motivated people.With him died the only leader ever sincere with Pakistan. The people who most supported the Idea of Pakistan ...the Bengalis were also alienated by racially motivated people which India took advantage of. Currently another ethnic group is being alienated by Racially motivated people which India is taking advantage of.
> In the end, if people wish to have Sindhustra, Pakhtunistan, BalochMakran,*Jinnahpur* or serakistan.. all they have to do is continue with their trend of holding on to bigoted views passed on. Views which were propagated by people who wished for their own profit and no one else's.
> 
> I see a glimmer of hope in PTI as they have so far refused to bank on any single Race or nationalist tune..
> Time will tell if that hope is well founded.



JinnahPur is fake & absoulutely false & lie theory against MQM by Nawaz league. Supporters of MQM are die hard Patriotic Pakistanis.


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## K-Xeroid

StandForInsaf said:


> Indeed its very important city , *it should De-Weaponized it so it may prosper quickly*.
> 
> 
> 
> *There is need of change ofc*.


No comments bro....... just have to wait and see....


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## Patriot

SAO PAULO, Brazil - A Brazilian housewife was convicted and sentenced to 19 years in prison Friday for killing her husband, chopping his body into small pieces and frying it. Rosanita Nery dos Santos, 52, drugged her husband in his sleep, then stabbed him to death two years ago in Salvador, about 900 miles northeast of Sao Paulo, said police spokesman Idmar Bonfim.

She then hacked Jose Raimundo Soares dos Santos' body into more than 100 pieces, which she boiled and fried before hiding in plastic bags beneath a staircase in her house, Bonfim said. He said police discovered the body parts after receiving an anonymous phone call.

Bonfim said the killing was either part of a black magic ritual or an attempt by the wife to collect life insurance worth about $34,000.

Citing testimony from the woman's relatives, he said she may also have committed the crime "to avenge many years of humiliation from her husband." He did not provide further details.

Santos denied killing her husband but said she chopped up his body, Bonfim said.

"She claims masked assailants entered her house, killed her husband and then forced her to cut up the body and fry it because that would prevent the stench of a decomposing body from alerting neighbors," he said.

Odd News | Offbeat, Funny, and Bizarre Headlines | Comcast.net...


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## SQ8

American Pakistani said:


> JinnahPur is fake & absoulutely false & lie theory against MQM by Nawaz league. I support MQM but i'm die hard supporter of Pakistan.



Point being.. that as long as people on this forum and all over Pakistan allow themselves to be blinded by ethnic views, this country's integrity is under threat.

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## untitled

This thread is making me sick


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## SQ8

Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

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## AHMED85

If live as Pakistani than alright other wise kick off...


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## nForce

she must had been very very angry with her husband

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## Sinnerman108

nForce said:


> she must had been very very angry with her husband



Naaa, what about that woman who cut her husband's "worthy organ "off !

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## nForce

salman108 said:


> Naaa, what about that woman who cut her husband's "worthy organ "off !



well..anger has no bounds and people can do a lot many things for vengeance..

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## Pioneerfirst

these are acts of individuals,So they should not be as highlighted as our media does.

Just a thought,everyone has the freedom of expression!

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## Doctor09

Sick people


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## Imran Khan

bloody hell she is mentally sick ? damn women are not innocent in 2011

bach ke rehna imran baba warna tery bhi biryani ban jay gee

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## Don Jaguar

What the hell.


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## 53fd

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I do not like this evolution into "mohajir" identity. Mohajirs should have obsorbed into sindhi culture and identity...But they resisted natural process of absorption and maintained distinct identity and still follow cultures of UP and Bihar...therefore they are still called mohajirs. Take example of balochs, they came to sindh in large numbers, adopted sindhi langauge and culture, and are nowadays very important sindhis e.g jatoi, mari, bhuto, chandio, talpur, zardari, laghari etc.



There is nothing wrong with cherishing your ethnic or religious identity, I cherish my Shia Bihari identity, but it should NEVER take precedence over your national identity.


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## 53fd

Santro said:


> Agree with Bilal..
> What mohajir identity? and the Mohajir's of 47 weren't all urdu-speakers.. a part of them were from Indian Punjab as well.



Even Biharis cannot be categorized as Urdu speakers. There are many different dialects of Bihari spoken by Biharis (Bhojpuri, Maithili, Angika etc). Only the people of UP, Hyderabad Deccan & Delhi can be categorized as Urdu speakers. Calling a Bihari an Urdu speaker is like calling a Bengali living in Karachi (there are 2 million Bengalis in Karachi alone) an Urdu speaker, which is ridiculous. But we are definitely not Mohajirs, & even Urdu speakers is better than being labeled a Mohajir.


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## Leader

husband soup, anyone ?

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## suryakiran

Leader said:


> husband soup, anyone ?



lol...


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## soul hacker

Imran Khan said:


> bloody hell she is mentally sick ? damn women are not innocent in 2011
> 
> bach ke rehna imran baba warna tery bhi biryani ban jay gee



imran bhai ohh sorry imran uncle aap imran baba kab se hogay

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## Leader

jokes apart. She did the right thing.


What does a mother do if not kill her husband when she finds him trying to rape their daughter?

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## MUHARIB

Marriage makes you do crazy/sick things.


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## fd24

MUHARIB said:


> Marriage makes you do crazy/sick things.



Muharib - Yaar i understand sometimes people do crazy and sick things but to kill and try to cook your jeevan saathi is not normal! I think its a bit insane in the membrane....

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## Bukhari.syed

Ignorance make people so.... Education is the best way out...


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## MUHARIB

superkaif said:


> Muharib - Yaar i understand sometimes people do crazy and sick things but to kill and try to cook your jeevan saathi is not normal! I think its a bit insane in the membrane....



haha i agree man..how can she do it ...its just so messed up...but i wonder what she was trying to make??

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## Don Jaguar

MUHARIB said:


> but i wonder what she was trying to make??



Husband biryani.

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## JanjaWeed

OK.. what this man was trying to do to his step daughter is insane! Killing him for that reason due to immense anger & rage is understandable (not justifying in any way though).. but to cook dead man? now.. that's nothing short of cannibalism. I just happened watch that interview with her on ARY.. the woman is not showing any remorse for her actions. Looks like she is mentally bankrupt & emotionally exhausted.

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## lem34

not good at all. But isolated incidents like this should not be allowed to take away the spot light from what is common and that is according to amnesty International statistics 9 out of 10 women in pakistan are victims of domestic violance


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## Karachiite

Don Jaguar said:


> Husband biryani.



More like bhuna gosht or paye

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## Strigon

I think the whole cooking reason was an attempt to get rid of his body...none the less, just messed up!

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## iPhone

Perceptron said:


> But unfortunately, out of touch with reality. Karachi's been a bloodbath and a war-zone where the stakes are too high for anyone to back off at the highest level of politics. It has seen too many fault-lines at various stages of history leading to increasing and violent bloodbaths, the latest being the Mohajir-Pashtun divide. The coming of PTI and Imran Khan will only exacerbate the growing fear among Mohajirs, and another Jinnahpur incident and an Operation Clean-up is evident, if they forcibly try to go against the grain of what the Mohajirs stand for as a community.



and we're gonna learn about our country and cities from an Indian who's never been there to begin with and who's most basic knowledge about Pakistan comes from propaganda filled Indian media, news outlets and movies. Sure.

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## W.11

Imran Khan said:


> bloody hell she is mentally sick ? damn women are not innocent in 2011
> 
> bach ke rehna imran baba warna tery bhi biryani ban jay gee



gotta say post of the month

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## W.11

bilalhaider said:


> There is nothing wrong with cherishing your ethnic or religious identity, I cherish my Shia Bihari identity, but it should NEVER take precedence over your national identity.



oye bihari babu!!


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## oFFbEAT

nForce said:


> well..anger has no bounds and people can do a lot many things for vengeance..


yeah! but if a man committed such a crime....then the reactions would have been different.......people would be saying...hang him immediately........

I am amazed by the no. of people joking about the incident.........


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## iPhone

I've spoken with many Mohajir/Urde speakers or what have you about this issue and some dislike the term mojhajir adopted by their community some favor it too but out of spite. 

Basically the argument is the entire country is divided into ethnic adn regional identity or language devide. Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Pashtoons, Kasmiris, Hazaras etc then within one language and region devide they're further defined by their local dialects, local regions etc. Within all this devide and defination where does the Mohajir/Urdu community fit in?

Now it's agreed that Mohajir identity is an invalid term since the current generation didn't migrate. Urdu speaking is also strange since urdu is widely spoken in many region of the country as the main language even above the local language. Punjab is of that sort where many Punjabi household speak strictly Urdu and for many reasons. It's polite, it's not loud, it's cultured, some even beign Punjabi do not know Punjabi and speak Urdu only etc. Does their identity also become Urdu speaker?

One suggestion I always favored, since every one must have their local identity in the country, is to form one based on the city/region one currently lives in. Do that for a number of years and it'll sync with the mainstream society. Second thing, stop being too fixated on where everyone comes from. But that only happens when too many positive aspects about the country are at play. i.e. education, lot of higher education, good economy, accommodating healthcare, stable politcal system, strong and fair law enforement and judicial institutions and so on and so forth.


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## American Pakistani

Santro said:


> Point being.. that as long as people on this forum and all over Pakistan allow themselves to be blinded by ethnic views, this country's integrity is under threat.



I'm not blinded in ethnic views or any bs, but when people throw MQM in terrorist list of BLA or TTP etc than it is un acceptable because thousands of MQM supporters also comes under that category than. My point is that MQM is political party & should be treated & talked that way. Recently in august we all saw people openly criticizing MQM, when it was PPP & ANP who started violence, i don't want to start another debate here & i hope you understand my point.


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## Birbal

Too bad she got caught. Did the right thing though. The OP doesn't mention that her husband tried to rape her daughter: BBC News - Pakistan woman 'killed and cooked husband' in Karachi

She probably figured that cooking him would be a good way to get rid of the evidence.

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## Capt.Popeye

nForce said:


> she must had been very very angry with her husband



Yeah, now I understand why I must not make my wife angry!


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## Birbal

oFFbEAT said:


> yeah! but if a man committed such a crime....then the reactions would have been different.......people would be saying...hang him immediately........
> 
> I am amazed by the no. of people joking about the incident.........



A man kills his wife after she tries to rape his son? Sorry but I don't see that happening.

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## Capt.Popeye

Birbal said:


> Too bad she got caught. Did the right thing though. The OP doesn't mention that her husband tried to rape her daughter: BBC News - Pakistan woman 'killed and cooked husband' in Karachi
> 
> She probably figured that cooking him would be a good way to get rid of the evidence.



So far I'd heard the expression "to cook up the evidence". Now I know what that means.

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## oFFbEAT

Birbal said:


> A man kills his wife after she tries to rape his son? Sorry but I don't see that happening.


Why are you specifying a particular crime......Do wives kill their husbands only when they try to rape their daughter.??

Our mindset has become such that, It has become very easy for the wife to get away with such crimes by blaming the husband.


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## OrionHunter

Santro said:


> Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.


Agreed! But she needn't have gone to the extreme of attempting to cook his body parts! This really sucks!


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## oFFbEAT

Birbal said:


> Too bad she got caught. Did the right thing though. The OP doesn't mention that her husband tried to rape her daughter: BBC News - Pakistan woman 'killed and cooked husband' in Karachi
> 
> She probably figured that cooking him would be a good way to get rid of the evidence.


*I hope the woman is stoned to death publicly*.......as a deterrent to such crimes......

Now how do you guys feel......I am a beast!


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## American Pakistani

What a dumb women.

RIP to husband.


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## Avisheik

Why cook the husband? Just dump his body on the street and say ha got attacked by hooligans.


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## Birbal

oFFbEAT said:


> Why are you specifying a particular crime......Do wives kill their husbands only when they try to rape their daughter.??
> 
> Our mindset has become such that, It has become very easy for the wife to get away with such crimes by blaming the husband.



You're off topic. This thread is not about wives who kill their husbands in general. This thread is about a particular incident where a woman killed her husband for trying to rape her daughter.


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## JAT BALWAN

OrionHunter said:


> Agreed! But she needn't have gone to the extreme of attempting to cook his body parts! This really sucks!



Arrey bhai adam khor biwi hai.... ab dusra koi adami to kha nahi saki to apne ko khane wali thi.... any problem???


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## simonyaqoob

*YEAH CHRISTIANS HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS IN PAKISTAN THAT IS WHY ITS HAPPENING*


*READ THE ARTICLE BELOW*

*
&#8216;Obscene&#8217; words: PTA must rethink*

THERE has been much talk about PTA&#8217;s intention to block text messages containing &#8216;obscene&#8217; words. More than 1,600 words have apparently been declared obscene, indecent, vulgar and offensive by the PTA, and telecom operators would be required to filter these words out of text messages.

Among the proposed list of &#8216;obscene and indecent words&#8217; I was horrified to see the name of Jesus Christ. Why does Jesus&#8217; name need to be banned? Is it an abusive, obscene or indecent word?

Being a Catholic I not only take strong offence to this action, however it also questions my knowledge of Islam: a religion which holds Jesus Christ (Hazrat Eesa) in very high esteem, is this not against Islam?

There has also been much talk about taking legal action: challenging the ban in court, saying it violates rights to free speech
and privacy.

My question is, does this act not also fall under the ambit of blasphemy? Is this not an offence under Section 295A which, according to the Pakistan Penal Code, states: &#8220;Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs&#8221;.

Whether implemented or not, the mere fact of Jesus Christ&#8217;s name being grouped with obscene and indecent words, has outraged my religious feelings and has insulted my religious beliefs by terming the name of my Prophet &#8216;obscene and indecent&#8217;.

Is to be understood that Pakistan&#8217;s blasphemy laws termed as &#8216;divine laws&#8217; by radical Islamic religious leaders are only to be used to victimise the vulnerable, downtrodden, marginalised, religious minorities in Pakistan?

The blasphemy laws have long been misused against religious minorities to settle personnel disputes, which have resulted in innocent victims being sentenced to death for crimes they could not even imagine committing.

Furthermore, anyone who dares to raise a voice against the misuse of these laws or who have tried to propose amendments to curb the misuse have ruthlessly been silenced. The assassinations of federal minister for minorities Shahbaz Bhatti and Punjab
governor Salmaan Taseer are two such recent examples.

We, the religious minorities, get discriminated against, and are victimised, our religious sentiments are hurt and nothing happens, no action is taken.

Although the PTA has not announced any date for the implementation of the ban, it must issue a public apology to Christian citizens of Pakistan for including Jesus Christ&#8217;s name in the list of offensive words and immediately have the name removed
from any such list.

I would also like to commend the action taken by Saleem Khurshid Khokhar, a Christian MPA of the Sindh Assembly and Senior Executive Member of The All Pakistan Minorities Alliance, on this issue.

MICHELLE CHAUDHRY
Lahore


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## simonyaqoob

Devil Soul said:


> Case Closed



Case is NOT closed....the damage has been done and the people in PTA who made this list should be punished according to the law of Pakistan known as Blasphemy Law. They disrespected Jesus Christ and they deserves to be punished according to section 295-A.


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## Baby Leone

punisher said:


> What kinda crap that PTA did.



its called dicipline...which you guys cannt understand...

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

and in my view its because no one can than abuse jesus christ in any way....

---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------




Areesh said:


> PTA has already decided to withdraw it's order of SMS filtering.
> 
> PTA Decides to Withdraw SMS Filtration Orders
> 
> So all you drama queens should keep this minority persecution rant for some other thread.





u think our neibour will understand this,....?


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## punisher

Mr Javed said:


> its called dicipline...which you guys cannt understand...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------
> 
> and in my view its because no one can than abuse jesus christ in any way....
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> u think our neibour will understand this,....?



Discipline??? is it called discipline. don't let us laugh about your knowledge. By your logic, US should ban Allah name also, don't be ridiculous. I have Muslim friends, They came to church along with me. Even We will discuss about similarities between Christianity and Muslim. They neva abuse Jesus Christ. For some stupid ,fools Banning Jesus Christ name is wrong.


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## CaPtAiN_pLaNeT

*Woman chops up husband for &#8216;molesting minor daughter&#8217;*

Woman chops up husband for

KARACHI - A woman in Green Town of Shah Faisal Colony killed her husband for allegedly molesting her minor daughter and then hacked up the victim&#8217;s body to dispose of the evidence of her crime.
The unfortunate story began in Chishtian, the &#8220;City of Love&#8221; located in Bahawalnagar district of Punjab province, where Zainab fell in love with and got married to Ahmed Abbas some four years ago after the death of her first husband.
The couple did not inform Zainab&#8217;s family of her second marriage and moved to Karachi with Zainab&#8217;s daughter from her first marriage.
*In the past four years, according to Zainab, she had stopped her husband from attempting to molest her daughter, now 17 years old, on several occasions.
Zainab said she had asked Abbas numerous times not to make sexual advances towards her underage daughter, but he was adamant.
Little did Abbas know that he had tried to molest Zainab&#8217;s daughter for the last time on Wednesday night when the infuriated mother had had enough of his lewd behaviour.*
Zainab first drugged Abbas, and after he fell unconscious, stabbed him to death and then, using the same knife, cut up her husband&#8217;s body into pieces.
She then proceeded to cook parts of her deceased husband and then threw the cooked meat out, while retaining the rest of the parts in a trunk to cook them later.
Neighbours discovered blood and pieces of meat in the water being drained from Zainab&#8217;s house, so they informed the police.
However, the law enforcers said someone claiming to be Zainab&#8217;s daughter had called them up and informed them of suspicious activities taking place behind closed doors of Zainab&#8217;s house.
When the police reached the crime scene, they found two cooking pots filled with meat and a trunk that held the rest of Abbas&#8217; body parts.
Zainab and her nephew Zaheer, who had arrived in the metropolitan a week ago, have been arrested; however, Zainab told the police that she alone was responsible for the murder and all the subsequent actions.
Police is looking for Zainab&#8217;s daughter who was missing when they raided the house to arrest Zainab and Zaheer.
Zainab told the law enforcers that she had sent her daughter to her relatives for protecting her; however, the police said the daughter&#8217;s statement is mandatory to advance the investigation.

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## Nelson

Still Jesus will love you all!


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## Icarus

simonyaqoob said:


> *YEAH CHRISTIANS HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS IN PAKISTAN THAT IS WHY ITS HAPPENING*
> 
> 
> *READ THE ARTICLE BELOW*
> 
> *
> &#8216;Obscene&#8217; words: PTA must rethink*
> 
> THERE has been much talk about PTA&#8217;s intention to block text messages containing &#8216;obscene&#8217; words. More than 1,600 words have apparently been declared obscene, indecent, vulgar and offensive by the PTA, and telecom operators would be required to filter these words out of text messages.
> 
> Among the proposed list of &#8216;obscene and indecent words&#8217; I was horrified to see the name of Jesus Christ. Why does Jesus&#8217; name need to be banned? Is it an abusive, obscene or indecent word?
> 
> Being a Catholic I not only take strong offence to this action, however it also questions my knowledge of Islam: a religion which holds Jesus Christ (Hazrat Eesa) in very high esteem, is this not against Islam?
> 
> There has also been much talk about taking legal action: challenging the ban in court, saying it violates rights to free speech
> and privacy.
> 
> My question is, does this act not also fall under the ambit of blasphemy? Is this not an offence under Section 295A which, according to the Pakistan Penal Code, states: &#8220;Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs&#8221;.
> 
> Whether implemented or not, the mere fact of Jesus Christ&#8217;s name being grouped with obscene and indecent words, has outraged my religious feelings and has insulted my religious beliefs by terming the name of my Prophet &#8216;obscene and indecent&#8217;.
> 
> Is to be understood that Pakistan&#8217;s blasphemy laws termed as &#8216;divine laws&#8217; by radical Islamic religious leaders are only to be used to victimise the vulnerable, downtrodden, marginalised, religious minorities in Pakistan?
> 
> The blasphemy laws have long been misused against religious minorities to settle personnel disputes, which have resulted in innocent victims being sentenced to death for crimes they could not even imagine committing.
> 
> Furthermore, anyone who dares to raise a voice against the misuse of these laws or who have tried to propose amendments to curb the misuse have ruthlessly been silenced. The assassinations of federal minister for minorities Shahbaz Bhatti and Punjab
> governor Salmaan Taseer are two such recent examples.
> 
> We, the religious minorities, get discriminated against, and are victimised, our religious sentiments are hurt and nothing happens, no action is taken.
> 
> Although the PTA has not announced any date for the implementation of the ban, it must issue a public apology to Christian citizens of Pakistan for including Jesus Christ&#8217;s name in the list of offensive words and immediately have the name removed
> from any such list.
> 
> I would also like to commend the action taken by Saleem Khurshid Khokhar, a Christian MPA of the Sindh Assembly and Senior Executive Member of The All Pakistan Minorities Alliance, on this issue.
> 
> MICHELLE CHAUDHRY
> Lahore




1) The ban has been reversed.
2) That was probably a mistake or an attempt to end the "Jesus *swear word* Christ!" expression. 
3) How can you even possibly relate that to Christians not having equal rights ? Your just looking for an argument, regardless of where it stems from, taking a non-issue and over-inflating it like that is a sad example of trolling.

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## Jango

simonyaqoob said:


> *YEAH CHRISTIANS HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS IN PAKISTAN THAT IS WHY ITS HAPPENING*
> 
> 
> *READ THE ARTICLE BELOW*
> 
> *
> &#8216;Obscene&#8217; words: PTA must rethink*
> 
> THERE has been much talk about PTA&#8217;s intention to block text messages containing &#8216;obscene&#8217; words. More than 1,600 words have apparently been declared obscene, indecent, vulgar and offensive by the PTA, and telecom operators would be required to filter these words out of text messages.
> 
> Among the proposed list of &#8216;obscene and indecent words&#8217; I was horrified to see the name of Jesus Christ. Why does Jesus&#8217; name need to be banned? Is it an abusive, obscene or indecent word?
> 
> Being a Catholic I not only take strong offence to this action, however it also questions my knowledge of Islam: a religion which holds Jesus Christ (Hazrat Eesa) in very high esteem, is this not against Islam?
> 
> There has also been much talk about taking legal action: challenging the ban in court, saying it violates rights to free speech
> and privacy.
> 
> My question is, does this act not also fall under the ambit of blasphemy? Is this not an offence under Section 295A which, according to the Pakistan Penal Code, states: &#8220;Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs&#8221;.
> 
> Whether implemented or not, the mere fact of Jesus Christ&#8217;s name being grouped with obscene and indecent words, has outraged my religious feelings and has insulted my religious beliefs by terming the name of my Prophet &#8216;obscene and indecent&#8217;.
> 
> Is to be understood that Pakistan&#8217;s blasphemy laws termed as &#8216;divine laws&#8217; by radical Islamic religious leaders are only to be used to victimise the vulnerable, downtrodden, marginalised, religious minorities in Pakistan?
> 
> The blasphemy laws have long been misused against religious minorities to settle personnel disputes, which have resulted in innocent victims being sentenced to death for crimes they could not even imagine committing.
> 
> Furthermore, anyone who dares to raise a voice against the misuse of these laws or who have tried to propose amendments to curb the misuse have ruthlessly been silenced. The assassinations of federal minister for minorities Shahbaz Bhatti and Punjab
> governor Salmaan Taseer are two such recent examples.
> 
> We, the religious minorities, get discriminated against, and are victimised, our religious sentiments are hurt and nothing happens, no action is taken.
> 
> Although the PTA has not announced any date for the implementation of the ban, it must issue a public apology to Christian citizens of Pakistan for including Jesus Christ&#8217;s name in the list of offensive words and immediately have the name removed
> from any such list.
> 
> I would also like to commend the action taken by Saleem Khurshid Khokhar, a Christian MPA of the Sindh Assembly and Senior Executive Member of The All Pakistan Minorities Alliance, on this issue.
> 
> MICHELLE CHAUDHRY
> Lahore



This has nothing to do with christians or their religion.

It is used as an obscene word often.

The ban has been delayed and a review is being taken by PTA. The words like 'get on' 'pick me' are also banned, so is it against human rights as well.

Take a break.


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## PoKeMon

No, no-one enjoy equal rights in pakistan as muslims do. However christianity, being a religion of book, faces less discrimination.


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## patna_ke_presley

I heard of a case where a Christian girl was expelled from School because she wrote the wrong Spelling of Naat while writing school assignment and her mother who was a nurse was transferred to other city. Really a small Child who is learning, writing wrong spelling, it this a crime enough to expel her from School. And read the story of another Christian Child who was beaten by her teacher because he/she said,"I am a Pakistani and I am also a Christian."

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## Kalyugi Mirza

IND_PAK said:


> No, no-one enjoy equal rights in pakistan as muslims do. However christianity, being a religion of book, faces less discrimination.


not agree where muslims have full rights ? there is shia and sunny cases , balochi,sindhi,punjabi case ..where some groups have fearfull time there..Pakistan needs a strong govt ,education and peace....


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## Jango

vks_gautam said:


> not agree where muslims have full rights ? there is shia and sunny cases , balochi,sindhi,punjabi case ..where some groups have fearfull time there..Pakistan needs a strong govt ,education and peace....



Balochi, Sindhi, Punjabi, Sunni and Shia are not religions professor.


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## untitled

They cant become president or prime minister or services cheif

otherwise they have the same rights

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## Kalyugi Mirza

nuclearpak said:


> Balochi, Sindhi, Punjabi, Sunni and Shia are not religions professor.


]
I don't want to go in detail ..Im just saying every country have issues if im Hindu i would say Pakistanies are not treating well with hindus there , if im Punjabi i would say u guys don't like Punjabi (seen here),if im shia i would say sunni don't like us..it just a pretext to raise issues of any kind..


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## Malik Usman

WHF said:


> Bad attitude... Pakistan was previously a hindu land and as minorities became majority it became muslim land and then came pakistan..and now after 60 years how can one forget history and say others *get out*..remember israel's story is similar to that of pakistan's minority became majority so do u mean to say that muslims should get out of israel if they r not happy there??



And befoe Hindus............it was muslims land.....coz you are also forgetting .............the relgion of Adam and Eve was Islam.


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## arcane

Malik Usman said:


> And befoe Hindus............it was muslims land.....coz you are also forgetting .............the relgion of Adam and Eve was Islam.



so this is what u are taught in pakistan.......great history dude.....

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## Ahmad

ohhh blo*dy he*l. she must have been full of HATRED.


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## khanz4996

PUT THE MAN INSTEAD OF WOMEN AND WOMEN INSTEAD OF MAN AND REPLACE MEXICO WITH AFGHANISTAN=REALITY


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## Ahmad

Leader said:


> jokes apart. She did the right thing.
> 
> 
> What does a mother do if not kill her husband when she finds him trying to rape their daughter?



i think in the report it says she was angry cuz he wanted 2 have 2nd wife?


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## Windjammer

Then there was the case of two cannibals eating a clown......one says to the other..... does this taste FUNNY to you. !!!


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## oFFbEAT

Birbal said:


> *You're off topic*. This thread is not about wives who kill their husbands in general. This thread is about a particular incident where a woman killed her husband for trying to rape her daughter.



*My reply is related to your reply....so, If my reply is off-topic....then, so is yours.*


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## Rig Vedic

Santro said:


> ??
> How sure are you that those people did not go there?
> part of my family were die hard congress supporters who were close friends with the Nehru family.
> Most of them are now in Pakistan and love their country. Those that stayed behind (of which very few are left in India as the rest left for greener pastures) are paupers compared to their kith and kin that went to Pakistan.
> These people have no identity in India, they wail Vande mataram more than any other Indian in an effort to be recognized.
> So far that has borne them very little fruit.



If they were close friends of the Nehru family they belonged to the Muslim elite class. It is not surprising they have done well in Pakistan. For Muslim elites Pakistan was a great opportunity - free of competition from Sikhs and Hindus, they rapidly rose to senior positions in the bureaucracy. Those who stayed back would have faced more competition and not done so well unless they were truly exceptional (such as Azim Premji).

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## Areesh

bilalhaider said:


> Even Biharis cannot be categorized as Urdu speakers. There are many different dialects of Bihari spoken by Biharis (Bhojpuri, Maithili, Angika etc). Only the people of UP, *Hyderabad Deccan* & Delhi can be categorized as Urdu speakers. Calling a Bihari an Urdu speaker is like calling a Bengali living in Karachi (there are 2 million Bengalis in Karachi alone) an Urdu speaker, which is ridiculous. But we are definitely not Mohajirs, & even Urdu speakers is better than being labeled a Mohajir.


 
Yes. I am the real Urdu Speaker. 

this is something else I don't call myself Mohajir or anything like that.


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## SQ8

Rig Vedic said:


> If they were close friends of the Nehru family they belonged to the Muslim elite class. It is not surprising they have done well in Pakistan. For Muslim elites Pakistan was a great opportunity - free of competition from Sikhs and Hindus, they rapidly rose to senior positions in the bureaucracy. Those who stayed back would have faced more competition and not done so well unless they were truly exceptional (such as Azim Premji).



Not too elite, just ran a newspaper in Lucknow.. 
And many of them landed in Pakistan with NOTHING.. literally NOTHING..
What they built, they built it from the ground up.


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## Rig Vedic

Santro said:


> Not too elite, just ran a newspaper in Lucknow..
> And many of them landed in Pakistan with NOTHING.. literally NOTHING..
> What they built, they built it from the ground up.



Newspaper publishers are definitely elite. They may have come with nothing but they got good senior positions in the bureaucracy.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

American Pakistani said:


> JinnahPur is fake & absoulutely false & lie theory against MQM by Nawaz league. Supporters of MQM are die hard Patriotic Pakistanis.


 
Wasnt altaf the loser convicted of burning the NATIONAL FLAG in the lawns of Quaids mausoleum?

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## somebozo

I hate to be called Mohajir..Proud son of Sindh soil!


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## Desert Fox

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wasnt altaf the loser convicted of burning the NATIONAL FLAG in the lawns of Quaids mausoleum?



He was convicted of a lot of things which is why he took asylum in Britain, its a shame how some people here follow him.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

somebozo said:


> I hate to be called Mohajir..Proud son of Sindh soil!


 

Proud sons of PAKISTAN....deserts of sindh,plains of punjab,hills,valleys n lakes of KPK,Sea shores,mountains,hills n rocky deserts, of baluchistan...forests,snowy peaks,lakes of Gigit Baltistan n Kashmir... all belong to us...

Our ancestors bled for the same FLAG!

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## Pakistanisage

As a member of Native Urdu Speaking Community, I resent the the label of " Mahajir ". I was born and raised in Pakistan ( mostly in Karachi and Peshawar , as my Father was a Pakistan Air Force Officer and we moved between these two cities - back in those days PAF Air Headquarters were in Peshawar). The Mahajir ancesters of my father's generation have all passed away and I am Pakistani by birth. If anyone calls me a Mahajir to my face they may end up missing few of their teeth because the label is abhorent to me. This murderous thug Altaf Hussain has done more harm to my community than anyone alive and I have no respect for this $ _ _.

I have no identity problem as my identity is that of a Pakistani. I take pride in my identity and make every concious effort for people to know that I am from Pakistan. I teach at an American University (New York) and all my students know I am from Pakistan. I am well respected in my domain and have never experienced any discrimination or prejudice in my environment for being a Pakistani.

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## Birbal

SuperDoper said:


> Somebody help me. Give me a Pope's list. You know what I am saying?



Ever heard of the Swiss minaret ban?


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## Birbal

oFFbEAT said:


> *My reply is related to your reply....so, If my reply is off-topic....then, so is yours.*



You claimed that we were using double standards when we supported the wife, and if the gender roles had been reversed, we would not have supported the murder. I pointed out that a scenario where the gender roles are reversed is highly unlikely. You then proceeded to go off topic by considering murder of a spouse in general, rather than murder of a spouse because he/she tried to rape your child multiple times.


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## SQ8

Rig Vedic said:


> Newspaper publishers are definitely elite. They may have come with nothing but they got good senior positions in the bureaucracy.



Actually.. none of them got into the bureaucracy.. they struggled for quite a while, worked hard.. and set up businesses that would never have flourished in India.
The person who actually ran the newspaper.. my grandmothers father.. stayed in India till his last few days...and would still visit Nehru even when the latter was PM.. he came to Pakistan to live with his son in his last days.. and is buried here.
The Haveli the family owned in Lucknow has been mostly sold off, and is now in a sorry state.
And its not just this family, many others related to or friends with the family made a good name for themselves in Pakistan.. whilst their relatives in India crashed from the elite down to the bottom of the barrel.

Being part of the elite in India was never a guarantee for riches in Pakistan.. people came here with nothing but two pairs of socks.. they worked hard and Pakistan rewarded them.
It was not restricted to just the urdu speaking UP section.. 
Many families from Punjab prospered more in Pakistan..

Many families from Indian Bengal made a name for themselves..

The same happened to Hindu families that migrated to India..

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## desiman

salman108 said:


> This is an ill informed article and has many inaccuracies.
> 
> 1. The article refers to "Mohajirs" as those who belong to Hyderabad , UP, Delhi, Bihar regions, but not those who migrated from Punjab and Haryana region.
> Truth of the matter is , People from Punjab / Haryana even within india are many times mocked,
> People from Punjab are usually looked down at and discriminated against by the "urdu" speakers who sketched their identity from the royal courts.
> 
> 2. If what the OP has posted is correct, why isn't there similar identity problems in the rest of Pakistan ? Why is this problem amplified only in Karachi and Hyderabad ?
> 
> 3. People who are from central India were always alien to NWFP, and historically looked at that part of the country as a far far outpost which shall never interfere with their lives.
> Just have a look at the name NWFP, and one will understand how the people will be perceived.
> 
> 4. If we look before 1970 within the Pakistani history, we will see that culture, economics, trade was dominated by the immigrants, however once other people like Pathans, Balochs and Punjabis came up to par, the immigrants could not let go of the control.
> Remember Karachi produces NOTHING, it's economics is based upon trading what is produced in rest of the country.



are you out of your mind ? Keep India out of this argument, Punjabi's have left their mark all over India, our primi minister is a Sikh, what more proof do you want ? stop trolling please. keep your arguments related to Pakistan.

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## oFFbEAT

Birbal said:


> You claimed that we were using *double standards* when we supported the wife, and if the gender roles had been reversed, we would not have supported the murder. I pointed out that a scenario where the gender roles are reversed is highly unlikely. You then proceeded to go *off topic* by considering murder of a spouse in general, rather than murder of a spouse because he/she tried to rape your child multiple times.


A Forum is where a particular matter/incident is discussed......and people are expected to give a *neutral and unbiased judgement* about the particular matter.

*I thought, in this case people were being biased*....they were only analyzing the situation from one particular perspective only.
Therefore, I brought in another perspective so that the matter can be *analysed impartially*......HOW??.....read on......


Say, a man murdered his wife in such a gruesome manner.......the reason being........say *adultery.*

*Now, would you support the man's act in this case??*

If your answers is *YES*, then according to your logic it's OK....*you were being impartial.*

BUT, if your answer is *NO*, then *you are clearly maintaining double standards.*

*You may argue that, adultary cannot be compared to the crime, the man is said to have done here*(raping his own child)
BUT, consider a man who used to love his wife very much.......*he may resort to such action out of uncontrollable anger and resentment towards his adulterer wife who has betrayed him.*

*Now, you may keep on arguing that the situations cannot be compared and I may continue to say that they can be compared.
AND our arguments will lead us nowhere.*

Instead, if we *logically consider* that *both the actions**(*by the man-in my case and the woman-in this case*)* ....*had their own reasons/motives(whatever they might be)*.....*then, most people will give their judgements in favour of the women in both the cases.*
This is nothing pure biasedness. 

*So, the bottoline is that, you cannot do an impartial analysis, if you are analyzing a situation from one particular perspective only.....you need to keep all the perspectives in mind in order to come to a neutral conclusion.*

*[*Thus, only to analyse the incident in a *neutral manner*, I brought in the perspective of a man........*therefore I was very much on-topic.**]*


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## Mabs

What if she had succeeded in cooking her hubby,sent him to a cooking competition and won with it. Imagine how that conversation would go. Host: So tell us about your dish and its magic recipe,how do we cook it ? Woman: Ahhhh ! You gotta have a lot of hate for your love I suppose.


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## Karachiite

IND_PAK said:


> No, no-one enjoy equal rights in pakistan as muslims do. However christianity, being a religion of book, faces less discrimination.


 
So now an Indian will tell us who and who doesn't have equal rights. My mother and her family are Catholics and never have they once been discriminated or felt threatened inside Pakistan. My first name is a "Christian" name and I too have never been discriminated on the basis of religion. 



patna_ke_presley said:


> I heard of a case where a Christian girl was expelled from School because she wrote the wrong Spelling of Naat while writing school assignment and her mother who was a nurse was transferred to other city. Really a small Child who is learning, writing wrong spelling, it this a crime enough to expel her from School. And read the story of another Christian Child who was beaten by her teacher because he/she said,"I am a Pakistani and I am also a Christian."



Indian media at its finest.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Yeah right.... my neighbour is a christian army officer Lt Col Jhon....

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## AUz

How many Christians are there in Pakistan? ALL information agencies say *1.6 %* while some extremist Christians I know of claim that they are *15%* of total Pakistani population


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## 53fd

Santro said:


> Actually.. none of them got into the bureaucracy.. they struggled for quite a while, worked hard.. and set up businesses that would never have flourished in India.
> The person who actually ran the newspaper.. my grandmothers father.. stayed in India till his last few days...and would still visit Nehru even when the latter was PM.. he came to Pakistan to live with his son in his last days.. and is buried here.
> The Haveli the family owned in Lucknow has been mostly sold off, and is now in a sorry state.
> And its not just this family, many others related to or friends with the family made a good name for themselves in Pakistan.. whilst their relatives in India crashed from the elite down to the bottom of the barrel.
> 
> Being part of the elite in India was never a guarantee for riches in Pakistan.. people came here with nothing but two pairs of socks.. they worked hard and Pakistan rewarded them.
> It was not restricted to just the urdu speaking UP section..
> Many families from Punjab prospered more in Pakistan..
> 
> Many families from Indian Bengal made a name for themselves..
> 
> The same happened to Hindu families that migrated to India..



True that. My family was lower middle class/middle class (but highly educated) in Bihar, but they worked hard in Pakistan, & they got rewarded for working hard. My dad's family left everything it had in India & came to Pakistan (first they went to East Pakistan, & then to West Pakistan in the 60s).


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## v9s

I don't see what the big deal is of being called a Mohajir. I've never seen it being used in a derogatory way and have only seen it being used as a way to find out what ethnicity someone was among friends.

Non-mohajirs and apologetic mohajirs tend to blow the issue out of proportion. 

You don't need to punch someone in the face because he called you a mohajir to show how much of a true "son of soil" you are.  

If someone calls you a mohajir to _offend_ you, it's pretty clear they're morons and have a superiority complex.

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## livingdead

v9s said:


> I don't see what the big deal is of being called a Mohajir. I've never seen it being used in a derogatory way and have only seen it being used as a way to find out what ethnicity someone was among friends.
> 
> Non-mohajirs and apologetic mohajirs tend to blow the issue out of proportion.
> 
> You don't need to punch someone in the face because he called you a mohajir to show how much of a true "son of soil" you are.
> 
> If someone calls you a mohajir to _offend_ you, it's pretty clear they're morons and have a superiority complex.


Why do you need a special identity to emphasize that you migrated from India?
Those who migrated from Pakistan/Bangladesh to India do not have any special name tag. I dont see that hurting them much. One is a PM and other was leader of Opposition.


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## punit

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I do not like this evolution into "mohajir" identity. Mohajirs should have obsorbed into sindhi culture and identity...But they resisted natural process of absorption and maintained distinct identity and still follow cultures of UP and Bihar...therefore they are still called mohajirs. Take example of balochs, they came to sindh in large numbers, adopted sindhi langauge and culture, and are nowadays very important sindhis e.g jatoi, mari, bhuto, chandio, talpur, zardari, laghari etc.


 
and what exactly is wrong with keeping own culture/identity alive.


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## v9s

hinduguy said:


> Why do you need a special identity to emphasize that you migrated from India?


 
I personally don't see it as such. I see it as an "urdu" term for urdu speaker.


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## Awesome

I have never identified myself as a Mohajir. I am Pakistani only!


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## Waffen SS

Who the hell are others to tell me what should be my identity, language, culture, traditions etc.

I choose them the way I like. No advice needed.

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## livingdead

v9s said:


> I personally don't see it as such. I see it as an "urdu" term for urdu speaker.


Well not personally you but in general, why was there a need to assert your rights by creating an identity( Muhajir means Immigrant, right?).
There is no equivalent political/social identity in India, I am not sure what was the need in pakistan. 
Also, I gather it is equivalent to calling somebody 'p*a*k*i' in pakistan.


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## shuakataftab

danger-zone said:


> Mohajir (urdu spekers) are living very peacefully all over Pakistan, just like me. they do not face any of such a problem like being killed or torcher by any one else or by any community. so why in Karachi ....
> 
> better to name thread Mutehda(MQM) Identity rather then Muhajir.


After language bill was passed (Bhutto regime) Muhajir families were forced out of interior Sindh to Hyderabad and Karachi
punjabi muhajirs migrated from indian punjab to pakistani punjab they are basically punjabis so there is no or little hatred face by them
all the bloodshed and killings are in karachi because muhajirs are concentrated in one region if you try to attack them they will strike back offcourse


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## shuakataftab

hinduguy said:


> Well not personally you but in general, why was there a need to assert your rights by creating an identity( Muhajir means Immigrant, right?).
> There is no equivalent political/social identity in India, I am not sure what was the need in pakistan.
> Also, I gather it is equivalent to calling somebody 'p*a*k*i' in pakistan.



Hindus who migrated from Pakistan to India never faced any discrimination
Hindus can still migrate to India from Pakistan if they want to
on the other hand Pakistan was created for all Muslims of the British India but the people who migrated faced discrimination and are portrayed as a threat to other cultures by Sindhi/Pashtun nationalist parties 
Pakistan closed its doors to the immigrants forever after 1951 even the biharis who opposed creation of bangladesh were told to stay in bangladesh after fall of dhaka

however afghan muhajirs were welcomed as brothers even tough they caused nothing but damage to Pakistan 

Muhajirs created the identity Muhajirs after they were treated like Muhajirs 
now every racist idiot want them to call themselves Sindhis Baloch Pakistani etc


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## Evil Flare

Who the hell is Muhajir ??? someone please tell me the meaning of it ...

I am only Urdu speaking Pakistani ....

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## StandForInsaf

shuakataftab said:


> Hindus who migrated from Pakistan to India never faced any discrimination
> Hindus can still migrate to India from Pakistan if they want to
> on the other hand Pakistan was created for all Muslims of the British India but the people who migrated faced discrimination and are portrayed as a threat to other cultures by Sindhi/Pashtun nationalist parties
> Pakistan closed its doors to the immigrants forever after 1951 even the biharis who opposed creation of bangladesh were told to stay in bangladesh after fall of dhaka
> 
> however afghan muhajirs were welcomed as brothers even tough they caused nothing but damage to Pakistan
> 
> Muhajirs created the identity Muhajirs after they were treated like Muhajirs
> now every racist idiot want them to *call themselves Sindhis Baloch Pakistani* etc



Just wow , you are certainly not patriot , and a typical racist , stay whatever you are we don't need you to be called Pakistani , if you want to go back your more then welcome.


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## *Awan*

ionic bonding in indian salt is very strong or hydrogen bonding in Pakistani water is weak that Pakistani water remain fail to disolve the indian salt.65 years are passed and their migration is still going on.

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## StandForInsaf

Nomi965 said:


> ionic bonding in indian salt is very strong or hydrogen bonding in Pakistani water is weak that Pakistani water remain fail to disolve the indian salt.65 years are passed and their migration is still going on.



Han bahi lagta to esa hai hai , Sharam inko magar ati nahi , i think only those who are loyal Pakistanis should be given shelter in Pakistan other scumbags should be sent back or thrown into sea , they are like cancer to our land. There are many loyal Urdu speaking Pakistanis they should lead their community.


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## W.11

Nomi965 said:


> ionic bonding in indian salt is very strong or hydrogen bonding in Pakistani water is weak that Pakistani water remain fail to disolve the indian salt.65 years are passed and their migration is still going on.



good kiddo, i think you will fail the chemistry exam by slight margin


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## pak-marine

Nomi965 said:


> ionic bonding in indian salt is very strong or hydrogen bonding in Pakistani water is weak that Pakistani water remain fail to disolve the indian salt.65 years are passed and their migration is still going on.



Haha what a stupid example , ionic bonds are formed between a metal and non metal ... by looking at your avatar i can see where the inspiration is coming from lol .. do some reading before posting

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## SQ8

Nomi965 said:


> ionic bonding in indian salt is very strong or hydrogen bonding in Pakistani water is weak that Pakistani water remain fail to disolve the indian salt.65 years are passed and their migration is still going on.



Without the "Indian" salt, and the bengali "salt" there would be no Pakistan..
The whole PushtoonPunjabiate bigotry that drives such comments would not exist either.. nor would the sindhustrum repel all other poles. It is the combined fault of many elements that the compound of Pakistan has yet to form all over the country.
Currently the extreme Cationic behavior of all elements in Pakistan is causing the Pakistani compound to dissolve at many places.
So much so that the massive outer shell of Balochistanum has been completely stripped of its electrons and it is now becoming extremely unstable.

Please keep racial bigotry out of the topic.

Every ethnicity that comprises Pakistan has made its equal contribution..
Problem is that they still have not stopped being ethnically motivated.

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## pak-marine

StandForInsaf said:


> Just wow , you are certainly not patriot , and a typical racist , stay whatever you are we don't need you to be called Pakistani , if you want to go back your more then welcome.



sorry to butt in but here you are again labelling some one racist .. is it because things you cant comprehend are over you , you just label them as racist and walk away ... why not answer his questions ?? Biharis werent allowed in those were the people who fought along army in 71 debacle , where as afghan refugees were allowed in millions and still are ..... it was well known secret and on record that before the perception among west pakistanis before the 71 debacle it was bengalis are smaller and darker they cant rule us nor they can fight. Try and think hope it will help you figure out .. who was racist


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## W.11

Santro said:


> Without the "Indian" salt, and the bengali "salt" there would be no Pakistan..
> The whole PushtoonPunjabiate bigotry that drives such comments would not exist either.. nor would the sindhustrum repel all other poles. It is the combined fault of many elements that the compound of Pakistan has yet to form all over the country.
> Currently the extreme Cationic behavior of all elements in Pakistan is causing the Pakistani compound to dissolve at many places.
> So much so that the massive outer shell of Balochistanum has been completely stripped of its electrons and it is now becoming extremely unstable.
> 
> Please keep racial bigotry out of the topic.
> 
> Every ethnicity that comprises Pakistan has made its equal contribution..
> Problem is that they still have not stopped being ethnically motivated.



and the stripped electrons of balochistanium is the reason it is forming electricity in everywhere and everybody getting electric shocks


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## StandForInsaf

pak-marine said:


> sorry to butt in but here you are again labelling some one racist .. is it because things you cant comprehend are over you , you just label them as racist and walk away ... why not answer his questions ?? Biharis werent allowed in those were the people who fought along army in 71 debacle , where as afghan refugees were allowed in millions and still are ..... it was well known secret and on record that before the perception among west pakistanis before the 71 debacle it was bengalis are smaller and darker they cant rule us nor they can fight. Try and think hope it will help you figure out .. who was racist



Nope , i just labeled that person *who ridiculed that ppl want him to be called Pakistani* , we all are Pakistani first , if he is not he can go back,
all Biharis ,Bengalis ,UP/CP people who are Pakistani loyal citizens i have lot of respect for them.


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## shuakataftab

StandForInsaf said:


> Just wow , you are certainly not patriot , and a typical racist , stay whatever you are we don't need you to be called Pakistani , if you want to go back your more then welcome.


I know this forum is full of "Patriots"
This is what i was trying to say
If you call yourself a muhajir 
people will generally say if you are a muhajir why dont you go back 
why do you call yourself a muhajir aren't you Pakistani?
btw
I don't want to go back i never came here in the first place
i was born here and i will die here 
guess what even if i walk around wearing a Sindhi topi and ajrak people identify me as a muhajir 
it is only a problem for others if i call myself a muhajir
i am just tried of the Muslim brotherhood slogans that are used to explain the existence of our country 
there was no Muslim brotherhood ever 
how can anyone be so patriotic if jobs are given on on the basis of language and race , if pakistani's are fighting among each other and if the only time Pakistani's seem to forget about their cultural differences is during cricket match 
sorry but there is not much to be proud of

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## SQ8

Lets put it even more clearly.
I am a Muslim.. that shows in my behavior as a person.
I am a Pakistani, my political affiliation is Pakistan.. My political identity is Pakistan.
I was born in Karachi which is in Sindh that is part of Pakistan.
So If I was to identify myself to which province I support in the national games.. I am Sindhi.
My culture is what was passed on from family values that came from people who lived in India.
My identity as an urdu-speaking Sindhi is to define my uniqueness to my countrymen and enrich their lives... as mine is enriched by absorbing and enjoying their culture.. be it Punjabi, Pukhtoon,Sindhi,Seriaki,Balochi or Hazara.
The only place where it may come into play would be investigating a potential bride from another ethnicity as one would not be familiar with the background in that area. Whether that girl would fit in my family or not.
That is it.
My cultural identity does not come into play when I work with my countrymen, play with them, eat with them,make friends with them or share their joys and sorrows.
I will NOT prefer one over the other.. and I feel betrayed when it happens to me.
Still they are my countrymen, my brethren .. MY BLOOD.. they are Pakistanis.
and that is that.

All those who express views contrary to mine, I consider them traitors .. misled at best.

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## American Pakistani

cb4 said:


> Almost all mohairs have replied in this thread and all of you are agreeing with your identity. What is there to doubt about? Were you all hoping for someone to come here and start a fight? I know this is exactly what you guys wanted and i'm afraid I'm not here to start a fight but to let you know how you are attempting to start one. There is exactly nothing you people are tying to prove? I guess this thread is a target for other ethnics to come forward and get the blame. This is purely intelligent just like what Jews usually do to moving along and to become innocent. The bottom line is i'aint dumb.
> 
> This thread is going smoothly because there are not many punjabis, Kashmiris, Pakthoons, baluchis and Sindhis here to argue. In fact there are hardly any non-mohajirs in this thread. Please go ask pure Sindhis specifically what they think about urdu speaking people. You guys are living with them and I don't have the time to argue for them. They know better because their land is now taken over and now they have become a minority.My point is do not forget that they been living there for thousands of years... They should have the first right to judge urdu community the way they want and the way they should govern themselves.



Listen mister, we've saw many raciest like you. We Urdu speakers or Muhajirs doesn't give a damn what you or your types think or say about us. One last thing for you that we are as Pakistanis as any Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch, Pathan, Hazara, Seraiki, Gilgiti&Baltistani, Kalashi, Kashmiri etc. & we don't have to prove our patriotism to you or the likes of you.

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## W.11

AHMED85 said:


> If live as Pakistani than alright other wise kick off...



its kick out not kick off, kick off happens during football match , my innocent idiot friend


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## American Pakistani

cb4 said:


> I'm sure you're one of those that have 'Khan' as a last name. Care to tell me what tribe you belong to?
> I don't know which part of Pakistan you belong to buddy but at least it is written and proven what P A K I S T A N actually means. In no where these letters represent/define you and your community. I know some one here mentioned how educated you guys are. care to tell me why it was best for you to come here when you're education was waiting in your old country? *The fact of the matter is, you stand no where. Hindus hated you. You were their slaves. Pakistan was an opportunity. So there you have it, you are an opportunist.
> *
> I will repeat one more time:
> 
> What is it exactly you want? Were you all hoping for someone to come here and start a fight? I know this is exactly what you guys were expecting and wanting and i'm afraid I'm not one of those here to start a fight but to let you know how you are attempting to start one. There is exactly nothing you people are tying to prove? I guess this thread is a target for other ethnics to come forward and get the blame. This is purely intelligent just like what Jews usually do to moving along and to become innocent. The bottom line is i'aint dumb!



No one will give you a bone, keep ranting.

As for that bolded parts our leader Quaid e Azam(who too was Urdu Speaker & belong Gujarati family) call us & we came, there were Muslims in India who didn't accept him as leader & they choose to stay there. Not to forget Karachi was filled up with dry mountains & deserts, all progress came there since Muhajirs step there. Also we Muhajirs believe Pakistan as mother & people of Pakistan as brothers, unlike those who have stuck in their ethnic dumb mentality.

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## W.11

American Pakistani post reminds me of my father/grand father had rejected the myth tht aside the indian pujabis, no other muslim community came under non muslim attack, and in indian punjab mostly it were the sikhs who killed the muslims

instead the muslims had a good relation with non muslims and they kept saying to muslims who were migrating, why were they leaving, and that they were more comfortable there then in pakistan

even then our ancestors left all the banglows and big properties, businesses and came to pakistan

these so called natives whose ancestors were mostly illeterates, had no sense of civics, had no money, had no idea how to run the government, economics of country are now calling us to leave this country???

its a miracle how country as pakistan which was completely barren under developed has reached so far as to develop a nuclear bomb, a country which had no industrial infrastructure what s ever, in british india, the area which makes pakistan was the most under developed area, thats also the reason why many muslims opposed the concept of pakistan because they were not confident how would a new muslim state survive

why didnt they kicked us out when we were serving this country, now when we have made the country stand on its feet, they are calling us to be kicked out, how ironic

its hard for any family to leave its native land to survive let live on a completely different land based on religious concepts, urdu speakers have left their money and their culture to develop this country, but still we are called indians and traitors, while 'natives' try to be as friendly to indians as possible because indians are better established then them, and call us pakistanis, indians and raw agents

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## American Pakistani

cb4 said:


> This 'Quid' part you've touched upon remains a mystery. Historians, British are predicting from research that he did not want to create Pakistan and it was made unintentionally. Some say he wanted both Pakistan and India to be one but since Ghandi came to India from South Africa, he mentioned why there were mohamadeens (muslims) in Gujart. That shocked him and led him to some kind of movement to create Pakistan.
> 
> Muhammed Ali Jinnah was 100% not an urdu speaker. Yes he was culturally Gujrati but not ethnically as he is from the rajpoth cast, a punjabi cast. His ancestors were punjabi for your information. Are you telling me know that he spoke urdu? LMAO. Just to let you know he only spoke English in Pakistan.
> 
> I guess you didn't answer my questions that i asked earlier. Just keep ignoring man just keep ignoring because you can't even make up the answers.



Oh God!!!! What a raciest person




^^^^His speech in Urdu

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------




KarachiPunk said:


> American Pakistani post reminds me of my father/grand father had rejected the myth tht aside the indian pujabis, no other muslim community came under non muslim attack, and in indian punjab mostly it were the sikhs who killed the muslims
> 
> instead the muslims had a good relation with non muslims and they kept saying to muslims who were migrating, why were they leaving, and that they were more comfortable there then in pakistan
> 
> even then our ancestors left all the banglows and big properties, businesses and came to pakistan
> 
> these so called natives whose ancestors were mostly illeterates, had no sense of civics, had no money, had no idea how to run the government, economics of country are now calling us to leave this country???
> 
> its a miracle how country as pakistan which was completely barren under developed has reached so far as to develop a nuclear bomb, a country which had no industrial infrastructure what s ever, in british india, the area which makes pakistan was the most under developed area, thats also the reason why many muslims opposed the concept of pakistan because they were not confident how would a new muslim state survive
> 
> why didnt they kicked us out when we were serving this country, now when we have made the country stand on its feet, they are calling us to be kicked out, how ironic



Please don't put every one in this raciest category, there are raciest in every ethnicity. I hope most Pakistani Punjabis are not like him.


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## W.11

hakim muhammad said, is the guy who left his family, even his brother to come to pakistan and serve this country, this guy had an established family business in india, but he came empty handed in pakistan, from there on he worked hard, used his back ground to build a business which is called hamdard today, hamdard is a prominent big business in pakistan today..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakim_Said


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## American Pakistani

KarachiPunk said:


> hakim muhammad said, is the guy who left his family, even his brother to come to pakistan and serve this country, this guy had an established family business in india, but he came empty handed in pakistan, from there on he worked hard, used his back ground to build a business which is called hamdard today, hamdard is a prominent big business in pakistan today..



There are many others like Dr Edhi or Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan etc but who cares. If any raciest person is ranting let him.


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## W.11

American Pakistani said:


> There are many others like Dr Edhi or Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan etc but who cares. If any raciest person is ranting let him.



i am just saying how can a guy leave his half family, his brother and an established business for 40 years, to come to an unknown place, where he had no acquaintances???, and build a new business


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## American Pakistani

cb4 said:


> Alright. He could speak urdu I agree on this part now that you've provided proof. But that doesn't matter, i can speak urdu too and that does not make me a Urdu mohajir. To some extent, he was living in India, so hindi/urdu is same $hit. Ethnically he is NOT AN URDU MOHAJIR. Again if you try to read my post, i've told you that it *his creation, regardless of him being a Punjabi, Gujrati, etc, remains a mystery in creating Pakistan. *
> Go and check who Chaudhry Rehmat Ali was, he might have a hand in creating Pakistan. Go and check How Nehru could be the founder.You've touched upon a very sensitive issue and you will draw many mysteries in to this.



Your post smells of pure raciesm & i've decided to report, i hope other viewers will also report your post & Mods will take action. Good Bye.

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## Edevelop

Again EDHI is not a Urdu mohair. You are wrong again. Ethnically, i think he is Gujrati. 
Now for A.Q.Khan, yes he had a hand in Pak's atomic bomb but he could have not done it all alone. Scientiits like Munir Ahmed Khan and Abdus Salam (nobel piece prize award winner) are Punjabi. and they were all involved.


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## Edevelop

American Pakistani said:


> Your post smells of pure raciesm & i've decided to report, i hope other viewers will also report your post & Mods will take action. Good Bye.



Go ahead. A person like you only answered one question but couldn't deal with other questions. This is not racism its part of the thread. Like i said go ahead do whatever you're doing.


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## Karachiite

KarachiPunk said:


> i am just saying how can a guy leave his half family, his brother and an established business for 40 years, to come to an unknown place, where he had no acquaintances???, and build a new business



Bro many people left their families,friends and businesses behind just to come to Pakistan. My grandfather did the same, he had a lot of family and friends in Rampur. He had a share in a family owned business and a big house. But he decided to leave all that behind and come to Pakistan empty handed. His father (my great grandfather) rejected the idea of Pakistan and tried to stop my grandfather from moving to Pakistan but my grandfather was too stubborn and moved to Pakistan where he struggled a lot and wasn't accepted by everyone.
Even my grandfather's Hindu friends told him not to leave and told him that the people there would never accept you. But my Grandfather had made up his mind because he was influenced by Quaid e Azam. When he moved to Pakistan he thought that India and Pakistan would be friendly countries and he would visit India to see his family often but that didn't happen and my grandfather never got to see his parents and siblings in India. 
Today my family in India is doing pretty well, most have moved to bigger cities. One of my relatives is a well known politician in UP.

These people left everyone and everything behind just to come to an unknown place but unfortunately little did they know that in the future their future generation would be called traitors,agents etc.

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## Majnun

tamygu said:


> What exactly is Mohajir identity.The people who really fought tooth n nail for pakistan didnt even go there. and for some 0.2% of population who went there ended up neither here nor there.So one can really sum up mohajir identity as :*neither here nor there.*




0.2% is a major understatement. It was definitely a small minority, but it was far more than that, maybe 20%.


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## Majnun

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wasnt altaf the loser convicted of burning the NATIONAL FLAG in the lawns of Quaids mausoleum?




When? This seems extremely unlikely as it would mean political suicide for him, or almost complete social rejection for even an ordinary man.


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## W.11

in case if more 'break ups' happen, its been officially a 'stranded' community, like the ones in bangladesh today after 71, and since we dont know sindhi language not wear ajrak or sindhi topi


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## Majnun

shuakataftab said:


> I know this forum is full of "Patriots"
> This is what i was trying to say
> If you call yourself a muhajir
> people will generally say if you are a muhajir why dont you go back
> why do you call yourself a muhajir aren't you Pakistani?
> btw
> I don't want to go back i never came here in the first place
> i was born here and i will die here
> guess what even if i walk around wearing a Sindhi topi and ajrak people identify me as a muhajir
> it is only a problem for others if i call myself a muhajir
> i am just tried of the Muslim brotherhood slogans that are used to explain the existence of our country
> there was no Muslim brotherhood ever
> how can anyone be so patriotic if jobs are given on on the basis of language and race , if pakistani's are fighting among each other and if the only time Pakistani's seem to forget about their cultural differences is during cricket match
> sorry but there is not much to be proud of




This is why we should forget everything else and spend all our time playing cricket.


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## Leader

Santro said:


> Lets put it even more clearly.
> I am a Muslim.. that shows in my behavior as a person.
> I am a Pakistani, my political affiliation is Pakistan.. My political identity is Pakistan.
> I was born in Karachi which is in Sindh that is part of Pakistan.
> So If I was to identify myself to which province I support in the national games.. I am Sindhi.
> My culture is what was passed on from family values that came from people who lived in India.
> My identity as an urdu-speaking Sindhi is to define my uniqueness to my countrymen and enrich their lives... as mine is enriched by absorbing and enjoying their culture.. be it Punjabi, Pukhtoon,Sindhi,Seriaki,Balochi or Hazara.
> *The only place where it may come into play would be investigating a potential bride from another ethnicity as one would not be familiar with the background in that area. Whether that girl would fit in my family or not.
> That is it.*
> My cultural identity does not come into play when I work with my countrymen, play with them, eat with them,make friends with them or share their joys and sorrows.
> I will NOT prefer one over the other.. and I feel betrayed when it happens to me.
> Still they are my countrymen, my brethren .. MY BLOOD.. they are Pakistanis.
> and that is that.
> 
> All those who express views contrary to mine, I consider them traitors .. misled at best.



................


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## Majnun

cb4, how are you saying that Muhajirs were opportunists? In fact, you are correct that Nehru's blunders and his vile communal politics, aimed at destroying any status that Muslims had in India, was a major factor in the creation of Pakistan. But you are severely underestimating and degrading Quaid-e-Azam by doubting his great and crucial role in the fight for Partition. I won't go into detail, there are many books you can check for this, but without Quaid-e-Azam, there would never have been a Pakistan, Nehru's blunders aside. Nehru aimed to take all land away from feudal lords (a laudable move, if not seen in context), because that was the only area at the time that Muslims were dominant and had power, they had lots of land. It was this move of Nehru's, that jolted many Punjabi Muslims, and made them support Pakistan, which was an important role towards Partition. But Pakistan would have been impossible without the support of millions of Muslims around the subcontinent, mostly from Hyderabad and the North (UP, Bihar etc) and Bengal. And here the Muslim League under Quaid-e-Azam won their support for Pakistan.
Your posts are disgusting, filled with hate, and they ought to be re-examined.


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## Majnun

Santro said:


> The only place where it may come into play would be investigating a potential bride from another ethnicity as one would not be familiar with the background in that area. Whether that girl would fit in my family or not.
> That is it.




Lagta hai bari fikr hai is baat ki


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## Leader

American Pakistani said:


> Your post smells of pure raciesm & i've decided to report, i hope other viewers will also report your post & Mods will take action. Good Bye.



I have reported him quite a few times, he was talking nonsensical about history and off topic racist rants, but no action was taken, my bad PR with mods !! 

anyway, just ignore him. he doesnot know iota of PAKISTANIS.

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## shuakataftab

cb4 said:


> This thread is going smoothly because there are not many punjabis, Kashmiris, Pakthoons, baluchis and Sindhis here to argue. In fact there are hardly any non-mohajirs in this thread. Please go ask pure Sindhis specifically what they think about urdu speaking people. You guys are living with them and I don't have the time to argue for them. They know better because their land is now taken over and now they have become a minority.My point is do not forget that they been living there for thousands of years... They should have the first right to judge urdu community the way they want and the way they should govern themselves.


native sindhi people never had any problems with anyone infact sindh is the only province where muhajirs were accepted 
it is the punjabi/baloch nationalist leaders who call themselves Sindhi and give racist speeches to play with peoples emotions
think of all the popular sindhi leaders present in parliament right now none of them are native Sindhis they are mostly baloch who migrated to Sindh

---------- Post added at 09:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------




cb4 said:


> Again EDHI is not a Urdu mohair. You are wrong again. Ethnically, i think he is Gujrati.
> Now for A.Q.Khan, yes he had a hand in Pak's atomic bomb but he could have not done it all alone. Scientiits like Munir Ahmed Khan and Abdus Salam (nobel piece prize award winner) are Punjabi. and they were all involved.


Muhajir is Muhajir gujrati, behari, hyderabadi, madrasi is another topic


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## StandForInsaf

shuakataftab said:


> Muhajir is Muhajir gujrati, behari, hyderabadi, madrasi is another topic



Muhajir were people who migrated if this is your yardstick than balochis and punjabis and pakhtons in karachi could be called muhajirs , which is not correct.

Muhajir was the first generation of immigrants in Pakistan , second generation and after that generations cannot be considered as muhajirs .


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## shuakataftab

StandForInsaf said:


> Muhajir were people who migrated if this is your yardstick than balochis and punjabis and pakhtons in karachi could be called muhajirs , which is not correct.
> 
> Muhajir was the first generation of immigrants in Pakistan , second generation and after that generations cannot be considered as muhajirs .


yes i know that genius 
i am not saying that baloch or pastun are muhajirs


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## StandForInsaf

shuakataftab said:


> yes i know that genius
> i am not saying that baloch or pastun are muhajirs



So who exactly is mohajir my dear confused fellow tell me that , and why should he be called mohajir tell me reason.


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## shuakataftab

StandForInsaf said:


> So who exactly is mohajir my dear confused fellow tell me that , and why should he be called mohajir tell me reason.


I was replying to "cb4" he was saying that edhi is a gujrati muhajir and not a urdu muhajir so he doesn't count as a muhajir 

According to common sense anyone who crossed the border to seek permanent settlement in Pakistan during 1947-51 was a muhajir


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## StandForInsaf

shuakataftab said:


> I was replying to "cb4" he was saying that edhi is a gujrati muhajir and not a urdu muhajir so he doesn't count as a muhajir
> 
> According to *common sense* anyone who crossed the border to seek permanent settlement in Pakistan during 1947-51 was a muhajir



Yap only first generation are mohajirs because they migrated , second generation and after that are not mohajirs. Your certainly not a 80 year old baba to be called a mohajir who migrated, if you born here you are/should not considered to be mohajir.

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## W.11

StandForInsaf said:


> So who exactly is mohajir my dear confused fellow tell me that , and why should he be called mohajir tell me reason.



if we are not mahajor then why there is ethnic hatred against us, just see mr nomi's post cb4's post and other members post, the more people show there hatred some from people will try to isolate themselves as mohajirs

nobody wants to be declared as mohajors, but the racism and discrimination is not OK too

other member pointed out we have asimilated and disolved into other ethnicities like sindhis etc, so my question to that guy will be, there are loads of punjabis, saraikis, pathans in karachi, why havent they tried to asimilate into sindhi culture and why they dont even try to speak urdu??

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## StandForInsaf

KarachiPunk said:


> if we are not mahajor then why there is ethnic hatred against us, just see mr nomi's post cb4's post and other members post, the more people show there hatred some from people will try to isolate themselves as mohajirs
> 
> nobody wants to be declared as mohajors, but the *racism and discrimination is not OK* too
> 
> other member pointed out we have asimilated and disolved into other ethnicities like sindhis etc, so my question to that guy will be, there are loads of punjabis, saraikis, pathans in karachi, why havent they tried to asimilate into sindhi culture and why they dont even try to speak urdu??



I am no one to defend the hatred of any person ,
my point is that every pakistani has equal rights on the basics of merit , agreed with the highlighted part.


----------



## SQ8

Cb4 is a prime example of the reason this thread exists..and why it should NOT exist.
His avatar is the despicable person responsible for breaking up the country due to his racist attitude.


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## pak-marine

StandForInsaf said:


> So who exactly is mohajir my dear confused fellow tell me that , and why should he be called mohajir tell me reason.



Calling others confused yet unaware your selves .. any how below is a link from wiki , Read on and enlighten or you can google for more , there is tons of material available 

_



Muhajir (also known as Urdu-speaking people) (Urdu: &#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1580;&#1585 [literally &#8211; migrants] is a term commonly used especially by Pakistanis to describe the Muslim immigrants who chose to settle in Pakistan and shifted their domicile after partition of British India into Pakistan and India. Some had participated in the movement for creation of Pakistan in 1947. They shifted from the Muslim minority provinces to Muslim majority provinces within of British India. Their principal language is Urdu.

Click to expand...

_
for more info and enlightenment click : Muhajir people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## StandForInsaf

pak-marine said:


> Calling others confused yet unaware your selves .. any how below is a link from wiki , Read on and enlighten or you can google for more , there is tons of material available
> 
> 
> 
> for more info and enlightenment click : Muhajir people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Read discussion points carefully after that give me the link to read.


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## Meesna

> Islamabad, Nov 27 (PTI) A female IT student from the minority Ahmadi community in Pakistan has been expelled for allegedly tearing up an anti-Ahamdi poster from the campus of a leading technical institute.
> 
> Rabia Saleem, a student at Comsats Institute of Information Technology in Lahore, was accused of blasphemy for her action, with many co-students demanding her "head".
> 
> While the event was not reported by mainstream media, according to ahmaddiyatimes.blogspot.com, Saleem tore up an-anti Ahmadi poster pasted on campus.
> 
> "Rabia Saleem, a female Ahmadi student of the final year, was accused of blasphemous actions by the student wing of a terrorist organisation, Tahaffuz-e-Khatima-e-Nabuwwat...," read the post titled "Education institution Comsats harbours extremists, expels Ahmadi student".
> 
> A hostel guard allegedly spotted Saleem removing the poster and then accused her of blasphemy though there was no Ayat or Hadith written on it, Al Ufaq, another online group, quoted Saleem''s fellow student as saying.
> 
> Rasheed Ahmed Khan, the registrar of the Comsats Institute, has denied any connection between Saleem''s faith and her expulsion. "Rabia Saleem has been expelled for violating the discipline of the institution and not complying with the rules and regulation," Khan told Al Ufaq.
> 
> There have been several terrorist attacks on the Ahmadis across Pakistan in the past two years, including an assault of two mosques by militants that killed about 90 people.
> 
> Sadaf Mujeeb, a rights activist, called up Saleem''s university at least six times to take up the issue.
> 
> "I called them six time to ask them why they hadn''t taken any action against people putting up anti-Ahmadi posters around the university, and to ask how what Rabia Saleem did was being considered as anything other than courage and integrity in the face of unrelenting, institution-sponsored bullying," Mujeeb told PTI.



Ahmadi student expelled in Pakistan -

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## Meesna

Plotting murder at COMSATS Lahore? « JHaque's Blog

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------




> *Countering a disturbing mindset: Plotting murder at COMSATS Lahore by beenasarwar*
> 
> &#8220;Pakistani &#8216;Muslim&#8217; youth wants blood,&#8221; wrote my friend and fellow journalist Mohsin Sayeed, tagging me on twitter with a link leading to a blog post titled &#8220;Plotting murder at COMSATS Lahore?&#8221; He wasn&#8217;t wrong. The blog post of Nov 24, 2011, by journalist and cartoonist Jahanzaib Haque makes for horrifying reading, revealing a poisonous mindset that cannot be allowed to continue unchallenged. Please see for yourself and take what action you deem fit. Below is a letter I just sent to the COMSATS Board of Governors, copied to a few friends who asked to be co-signatories, and my message to the facebook group administrator:



Countering a disturbing mindset: Plotting murder at COMSATS*Lahore « Journeys to democracy


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## Edevelop

I find it a bit hypocritical in that if i or anyone else were to open a thread called Sindhi Identity, Punjabi Identity, or Baluchi Identity, I would be called a traitor. Clearly, you (mohajirs) are not amongst the suppressed people.


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## Bhairava

Poor girl. Her educations and dreams shattered by extremists.

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## Bratva

Okay, I was being silent all this time, was waiting if news comes in main stream. This incident happened in my Institution COMSATS Lahore. There is sticker pasted at some places in institution and also in hostels containing Anti Ahmedi remarks. Girl was disturbed due to some reasons and she vented out her anger on by Scratching the anti ahmedi sticker pasted on Girls hostel wall and remove the sticker from the wall, tore it apart and then throw it on the floor, Girls hostel guard and some other girls was watching the whole incidence

Unfortunately, the sticker had a Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) name on it, Guard got angry, told the warden of the hostel, Warden locked her up in the room, news leaked out, Other girls start gathering out sider her room, Warden called her parents who took her immediately, police called up they came and a case was registered against her.

that's what happened

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## Meesna

> *An open letter to COMSATS Pakistan Administration.*
> 
> To
> 
> The Management of COMSATS
> 
> I would like to bring your attention towards the expelling of an Ahmadi girl from your institute by maybe your own hands. On one side for her safety maybe that was the right thing to do, but would it solve the problem? I think no, it would create more problems for you next time. Because anyone could stand up and raise such an excuse to take personal vendetta against another student. It could be a Shiite student or Christian or a Hindu student next time who would have powerful backers and you might not be able to sort it out so easily as you could do with the blink of an eye regarding this helpless Ahmadi girl. Because she is an Ahmadi she belongs to a so-called minority and she was the one who has to go, is not what I think an educational institution should be doing.
> 
> ...



An open letter to COMSATS Pakistan Administration. | Tahir Imran


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## Bratva

*



Rasheed Ahmed Khan, the registrar of the Comsats Institute, has denied any connection between Saleem''s faith and her expulsion. "Rabia Saleem has been expelled for violating the discipline of the institution and not complying with the rules and regulation," Khan told Al Ufaq.

Click to expand...

*
They had to say this for face saving as incident didn't occured in campus, many students were angry due to this incident, if the administration had not take any step, there would have been a Fasad all over the campus.


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## Sinnerman108

cb4 said:


> I find it a bit hypocritical in that if i or anyone else were to open a thread called Sindhi Identity, Punjabi Identity, or Baluchi Identity, I would be called a traitor. Clearly, you (mohajirs) are not amongst the suppressed people.



CB, which dirty talks did u do, that all of your posts are deleted ?


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## Meesna

mafiya said:


> They had to say this for face saving as incident didn't occured in campus, many students were angry due to this incident, if the administration had not take any step, there would have been a Fasad all over the campus.



Administration should call police. That&#8217;s what police are for. Administration first allowed extremism to flourish then they expelled the girl as if administration had no choice. They had choice all along. They were quick to call police on the girl but not beforehand on the extremists.

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## Patriot

Pakistan is full of bigotry and intolerance.Heck The members here are so bigoted and intolerant and tend to bring up Ahmedi Religion and other religion if someone writes any anti Pakistani Stuff ( As if Muslims have not damaged Pakistan ) and i have studied in Pakistani Colleges (Not Universities) but even the colleges are full of intolerant disgusted p!gs (Liberal in their personal lifestyle but conservative otherwise) of course there are some pure bigoted people too and mind you these bigoted guys enjoy eating at Western Restaurant, Enjoy listening to Amreki Music etc.I still remember seeing video of GCU Students cheering for the killer of Salman Taseer.Even in my school days - I was taught by teachers that Ahemdis are evil disgusting people and they are the biggest enemies of Pakistan and Musharraf is Ahmedi and all that crap which you might see on some Pakistani Forum.Urdu Media played a great rule in this as well.These inteolrant pigs don't even leave Shias alone and consider Shia half kafir too.

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## Meesna

mafiya said:


> Okay, I was being silent all this time, was waiting if news comes in main stream. This incident happened in my Institution COMSATS Lahore. There is sticker pasted at some places in institution and also in hostels containing Anti Ahmedi remarks. Girl was disturbed due to some reasons and she vented out her anger on by Scratching the anti ahmedi sticker pasted on Girls hostel wall and remove the sticker from the wall, tore it apart and then throw it on the floor, Girls hostel guard and some other girls was watching the whole incidence
> 
> Unfortunately, the sticker had a Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) name on it, Guard got angry, told the warden of the hostel, Warden locked her up in the room, news leaked out, Other girls start gathering out sider her room, Warden called her parents who took her immediately, police called up they came and a case was registered against her.
> 
> that's what happened



Were you there yourself or is it hearsay? Just that I know in our society things are reported with prejudice.


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## BATMAN

Another Meesna special. source: bharti news.

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## Developereo

Meesna said:


> Administration first allowed extremism to flourish



Exactly. What on earth is a religious poster doing in an IT school in the first place?

The school's job is to teach people IT, not police their religious beliefs.

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## Bratva

Meesna said:


> Were you there yourself or is it hearsay? Just that I know in our society things are reported with prejudice.



Administration Called the Police at the same time when incident happened and they decided to let girl go for now until charges are pressed and it occured ar Midnight 12'ish,Protest started next morning when campus opened demanding to take an action

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## Meesna

BATMAN said:


> Another Meesna special. source: bharti news.


 
Which of the Islamic Republic's media would report on the Islamic Republic&#8217;s black deeds? They are busy crying over NATO attack but what they do they conveniently forget to mention.

Also the last time someone stood for anyone he was gunned down and the killer is a national hero.

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## nForce

mafiya said:


> Okay, I was being silent all this time, was waiting if news comes in main stream. This incident happened in my Institution COMSATS Lahore. There is sticker pasted at some places in institution and also in hostels containing Anti Ahmedi remarks. Girl was disturbed due to some reasons and she vented out her anger on by Scratching the anti ahmedi sticker pasted on Girls hostel wall and remove the sticker from the wall, tore it apart and then throw it on the floor, Girls hostel guard and some other girls was watching the whole incidence
> 
> Unfortunately, the sticker had a Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) name on it, Guard got angry, told the warden of the hostel, Warden locked her up in the room, news leaked out, Other girls start gathering out sider her room, Warden called her parents who took her immediately, police called up they came and a case was registered against her.
> 
> that's what happened



This is insanity...one can write anything anti-establishment,racist or something like that,and then put Prophet Mohammad's name on it,and then nobody can do anything about it??

What is this,using religion as a shield to do whatever you like?

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## BATMAN

Meesna said:


> Which of the Islamic Republic's media would report on the Islamic Republic&#8217;s black deeds? They are busy crying over NATO attack but what they do they conveniently forget to mention.
> 
> Also the last time someone stood for anyone he was gunned down and the killer is a national hero.



I appreciate your help to the Islamic republic but we cannot trust bharti news.

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## Nitin Goyal

BATMAN said:


> I appreciate your help to the Islamic republic but we cannot trust bharti news.



what is there in the news that you can't trust ??


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## K-Xeroid

nForce said:


> This is insanity...one can write anything anti-establishment,racist or something like that,and then put Prophet Mohammad's name on it,and then nobody can do anything about it??
> 
> What is this,using religion as a shield to do whatever you like?


Call some other bharti members here in this thread, and become saviour .... Hurry up!!

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## Adnan Faruqi

> Rabia Saleem, a student at Comsats Institute of Information Technology in Lahore, was accused of blasphemy for her action, with many co-students *demanding her "head"*.



Its too m what types of extremists breeds in education institutes and if its the response of so called educated one's then what will the uneducated will do?????


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## untitled

I think we should ban all those left wing right wing centre wing student political bodies from all campuses

That is what the Quaid told us students. Stay away from politics


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## scrumpy

Android K-Zero said:


> CHampions need to look after their secular country....................



Did you even watch the news item before posting it? It was just pure coincidence that the victim in this case was a Muslim.

The thread is about religious intolerance in Pakistan. I don't see how the attempt to deflect attention on Indian Secularism helps the discussion.

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## scrumpy

Duplicate post.


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## regular

Developereo said:


> Exactly. What on earth is a religious poster doing in an IT school in the first place?
> 
> The school's job is to teach people IT, not police their religious beliefs.


Sir! Pakistan is a free country pplz are free to preach and do anything peacefully... We donot put restrictions on the freedom of speech and basic human rights.The institution can't restrain people from their religious practice or beliefs.....

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## AHMED85

i do not gain any reliable news in this regard what she had done.. only some notions come for her allegation...

By the way tell me one thing do you observe there are a large amount of news paper fall in the way,s include name,s but no one notice for this...
Stop and Think for this...


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## Meesna

Ironically;



> &#8220;The Commission on Science and Technology for Sustainable Development in the South (COMSATS) is an international organization. It aims to reduce the ever-growing gap between the developed and developing world through useful applications of science and technology. *The Third World Academy of Sciences (TWAS) initiated the proposal for the formation of COMSATS under the leadership of Nobel Laureate, Dr. Abdus Salam.*&#8221;



Historical Perspective

Perhaps the pious should stay away from COMSATS altogether for the above reason.

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## Rusty

At my uni in the Canada there are posters of all kinds put up, including pro zionsist, pro homosexuality etc etc, and if anyone dreamed of tearing up one of those posters not only would they be expelled but also hate crime charges would be laid against them. 

The School was simply protecting the freedom of speech, which the girl violated and is now paying the price. 

of course Indian haters gonna hate.

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## untitled

Meesna said:


> Ironically;
> 
> 
> 
> Historical Perspective
> 
> Perhaps the pious should stay away from COMSATS altogether for the above reason.



Why was this Institute not closed down ? Why was it allowed to continue ?


----------



## livingdead

Rusty said:


> At my uni in the Canada there are posters of all kinds put up, including pro zionsist, pro homosexuality etc etc, and if anyone dreamed of tearing up one of those posters not only would they be expelled but also hate crime charges would be laid against them.
> 
> The School was simply protecting the freedom of speech, which the girl violated and is now paying the price.
> 
> of course Indian haters gonna hate.


Well what if the posters themselves are hate filled and anti-some-people. What if it says kill all jews or paints all muslims as terrorists? Do you think your college will allow them?
The posters were against ahmedis, and not pro-sunni belief(as per the guy who wrote it)

---------- Post added at 06:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------




khanz4996 said:


> MOD edit Never Quote a Bigot and a racist


Post reported. Did not know about pakistani constitution.!!!


----------



## untitled

self delete


----------



## khanz4996

hinduguy said:


> Well what if the posters themselves are hate filled and anti-some-people. What if it says kill all jews or paints all muslims as terrorists? Do you think your college will allow them?
> The posters were against ahmedis, and not pro-sunni belief(as per the guy who wrote it)
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Post reported. Did not know about pakistani constitution.!!!


Know about us before posting about us


----------



## Meesna

Rusty said:


> At my uni in the Canada there are posters of all kinds put up, including pro zionsist, pro homosexuality etc etc, and if anyone dreamed of tearing up one of those posters not only would they be expelled but also hate crime charges would be laid against them.
> 
> The School was simply protecting the freedom of speech, which the girl violated and is now paying the price.
> 
> of course Indian haters gonna hate.



Two points;

1. In Canada posters cannot be used to incite hatred to the extent that people get killed. Ahmadis do get killed for this hatred in Pakistan. No comparison with Canada, thankfully.

2. An Ahmadi is not even allowed under law to express himself; that is illegal in Pakistan. He/she would still go to jail for expressing him/herself. Hardly any comparison with Canada. 

So your selective interpretation and comparison of Islamic Republic with Canada is wholly incorrect. Also the administration itself does not claim this to be reason for expulsion. Here is their view;



> Rashid Ahmad Khan, additional registrar at the Comsats Institute of Information Technology in Lahore, had denied any link between the student&#8217;s expulsion and her religion. Instead, he said she was expelled for &#8220;breaking university rules&#8221; since she &#8220;did not provide a document&#8221; required in order to register.



PAKISTAN Lahore: Ahmadi student expelled on false blasphemy charges - Asia News

Obviously they are making excuses now. 

Ahmadis are being treated practically as slaves. Anything can be said to them or done to them but they can not even respond in the mildest of manner or they&#8217;ll be punished.

Does Canada have a law on the lines of Ordinance XX?
Ordinance XX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Roybot

Android K-Zero said:


> CHampions need to look after their secular country....................



Yeah right cause the Guards knew that the guy was a Muslim.

Stop derailing the thread


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## Roybot

Sri Lanka Guardian: A Female student expelled on Blasphemy Allegations in Lahore


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## K-Xeroid

expelled from COMSATS Lahore ?, I mean many irresponsible kids got expelled in all over world.... Will you discuss all misbehaviour in Pdf?

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## Meesna

regular said:


> Sir! Pakistan is a free country pplz are free to preach and do anything peacefully



Then why is there blasphemy law in the first place? Also why is the freedom not extended to Ahmadis?



> 298-C. Person of Quadiani group, etc., calling himself a Muslim or preaching or *propagating his faith*: Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis' or by any other name), who directly or indirectly, poses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims *shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine*.




---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------




Android K-Zero said:


> expelled from COMSATS Lahore ?, I mean many irresponsible kids got expelled in all over world.... Will you discuss all misbehaviour in Pdf?



This is a Pakistani forum and this is an ongoing religious persecution issue.


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## MUHARIB

First of all what is Ahmadi?? I thought Islam has only three divisions sunni. shia and wahabi.


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## somebozo

Blogspot, great journalism begins here..yeah right!


----------



## untitled

Android K-Zero said:


> expelled from COMSATS Lahore ?, I mean many irresponsible kids got expelled in all over world.... Will you discuss all misbehaviour in Pdf?



If the misbehaving kid is a Pakistani then probably yes


----------



## A.Muqeet khan

andriod this is a very serious matter which i swear is capable of plunging this whole Pakistan . First you will see the qadiyani vs muslim then shia vs sunni then barelvi vs deobandi and the list will continue the point being even if she trampled the pamphlet with prophets name she cant be prosecuted unless and until she knew that the name of prophet is indeed written on it so claiming her head with out her justification is wrong and this is not a matter of responsible kid or irresponsible kid its about being rasict or not being racist that all and plz just because she happens to be a Qadiani u cant kill her no one has any authority to kill any one. she is born a non muslim she will die a non muslim how can u kill her cause the case of being aposlate cant be fit here even if she spews hate against Islam u have no right to kill her as nonmuslims have that right even in the Muslim world


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## K-Xeroid

Meesna said:


> Then why is there blasphemy law in the first place? Also why is the freedom not extended to Ahmadis?
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *This is a Pakistani forum and this is an ongoing religious persecution issue*.


Its look more misbehavour then religious issue.... Take a look , if you misbehave in your institute and got expelled .. then accept your misbehaviour and solve your matters internally... its just a misbehaviour issue....

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## untitled

MUHARIB said:


> First of all what is Ahmadi?? I thought Islam has only three divisions sunni. shia and wahabi.



YOu dont know what Islam is yet you ridicule Muslims with your Avatar

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## A.Muqeet khan

yar prove it that its behaviour issue just prove it and if u cant plz dont spread the false news

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------




pdf_shurtah said:


> YOu dont know what Islam is yet you ridicule Muslims with your Avatar


 hell how can he ridiculate muslims .can muslims become kafir by seeing that ?


----------



## K-Xeroid

A.Muqeet khan said:


> andriod this is a very serious matter which i swear is capable of plunging this whole Pakistan . First you will see the qadiyani vs muslim then shia vs sunni then barelvi vs deobandi and the list will continue the point being even if she trampled the pamphlet with prophets name she cant be prosecuted unless and until she knew that the name of prophet is indeed written on it so claiming her head with out her justification is wrong and this is not a matter of responsible kid or irresponsible kid its about being rasict or not being racist that all and plz just because she happens to be a Qadiani u cant kill her no one has any authority to kill any one. she is born a non muslim she will die a non muslim how can u kill her cause the case of being aposlate cant be fit here even if she spews hate against Islam u have no right to kill her as nonmuslims have that right even in the Muslim world


Well i got my own opinion, If you got some other matters to involve in then its your personal matter....


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## OrionHunter

Don't you think this 'blasphemy' stuff is going a bit too far? Tearing up a poster is considered blasphemy? I'm sure the majority of Pakistanis don't support this.

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## MUHARIB

pdf_shurtah said:


> YOu dont know what Islam is yet you ridicule Muslims with your Avatar



How am i ridiculing??..I am a non-muslim. And also yeah i dont know a lot about Islam cause i am a non-muslim so i am asking a question if you can answer it well and good or else stop trolling.


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## Shabz Nist

Ahmedis in Pakistan are pakistanis. Ahmedis in Pakistan are Muslims. Bigots need to get a life instead of issuing fatwas.


----------



## K-Xeroid

MUHARIB said:


> How am i ridiculing??..I am a non-muslim. And also yeah i dont know a lot about Islam cause i am a non-muslim so i am asking a question if you can answer it well and good or else stop trolling.


Then you need to watch Peace tv.. if you want to learn islam in india,...... its pdf not an institute


----------



## A.Muqeet khan

Android K-Zero said:


> Well i got my own opinion, If you got some other matters to involve in then its your personal matter....


 then understand this sir this is not a place for u to brain fart this is a place for discuttion and learning if u are absolute in ur thought and dont bother justifing it then plz dont even bother posting

---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------




Shabz Nist said:


> Ahmedis in Pakistan are pakistanis. Ahmedis in Pakistan are Muslims. Bigots need to get a life instead of issuing fatwas.


 agree with the first point but dont agree with the second according to constitution sorry they are not muslims


----------



## MUHARIB

Android K-Zero said:


> Then you need to watch Peace tv.. if you want to learn islam in india,...... its pdf not an institute



When did i say i want to learn islam?? I just asked a freaking question if you can answer it then good or else learn to ignore if its not your business.

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## MUHARIB

HA screw it i found it....now i know why its a big issue.


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## A.Muqeet khan

come on ratti we all know that this wont happen simply because they think that they are doing service to Islam and that they can get away with this . U dont know its like u with us or u are Ahmadi u with us OR u a christian u with us or u a supporter of RAW and the list goes on the rule of agreeing to dis agree is not going to be with us


----------



## Rusty

hinduguy said:


> Well what if the posters themselves are hate filled and anti-some-people. What if it says kill all jews or paints all muslims as terrorists? Do you think your college will allow them?
> The posters were against ahmedis, and not pro-sunni belief(as per the guy who wrote it)
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Post reported. Did not know about pakistani constitution.!!!



know you are speculating and making hypotheticals. 
For all we know the poster could of just said "Ahmedies don't drink milk"

You cannot say the posters were hate filled until we find out what they said.


----------



## K-Xeroid

A.Muqeet khan said:


> then understand this sir this is not a place for u to brain fart this is a place for discuttion and learning if u are absolute in ur thought and dont bother justifing it then plz dont even bother posting
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------
> 
> expelled from COMSATS Lahore........... As a Pakistani citizen ,its my reponsibility to describe members like you that its just and over highlighted topic.... and these topic causing very much trouble as you mention above...
> qadiyani vs muslim etc..... and this thread got linked with my opinion....


----------



## Rusty

Meesna said:


> Two points;
> 
> 1. In Canada posters cannot be used to incite hatred to the extent that people get killed. Ahmadis do get killed for this hatred in Pakistan. No comparison with Canada, thankfully.
> 
> 2. An Ahmadi is not even allowed under law to express himself; that is illegal in Pakistan. He/she would still go to jail for expressing him/herself. Hardly any comparison with Canada.
> 
> So your selective interpretation and comparison of Islamic Republic with Canada is wholly incorrect. Also the administration itself does not claim this to be reason for expulsion. Here is their view;
> 
> 
> 
> PAKISTAN Lahore: Ahmadi student expelled on false blasphemy charges - Asia News
> 
> Obviously they are making excuses now.
> 
> Ahmadis are being treated practically as slaves. Anything can be said to them or done to them but they can not even respond in the mildest of manner or theyll be punished.
> 
> Does Canada have a law on the lines of Ordinance XX?
> Ordinance XX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




I am sure Ahmedies get targeted, but then again who doesn't get targeted in Pakistan?
some people are targeting Ahmedies, some are targeting green turban people, some are targeting Mcdonalds! 

as for expressing themselves
how are they unable to do that?
The law only says that they cannot call themselves Muslim because they dont meet the criteria, they can call themselves Ahmedies and build all the temples and places of worship they want.

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## untitled

MUHARIB said:


> How am i ridiculing??..I am a non-muslim. And also yeah i dont know a lot about Islam cause i am a non-muslim so i am asking a question if you can answer it well and good or else stop trolling.



You maybe a non muslim but the words infidel and Kafir are used for enemies of Islam. You come to this forum and use these words as your avatar ?

For trolling what else

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## Rusty

MUHARIB said:


> First of all what is Ahmadi?? I thought Islam has only three divisions sunni. shia and wahabi.



1. Ahmedi is a sect or a cult or a religion, what ever you want to call it, that originated in Punjab in the early 20th century. 
It was started by a mulanah who started to make claims about islam that were not orthodox teaching. 
His teaching were so extreme that most muslims do not consider his followers a part of Islam


2. your Avatar is wrong since an infidel is a non christan

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## untitled

ratti said:


> he is a non-muslim and according to you a infidel or kafir.. whats wrong with that.



Is he also an enemy ?

---------- Post added at 01:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 AM ----------




Rusty said:


> your Avatar is wrong since an infidel is a non christan



Wrong is not the word but rather deliberately provoking


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## Rusty

ratti said:


> that means no one can call himself a muslim in pakistan...
> Let me ask you a question... do you or any of your family take interest from a bank.. if you say yes... the you are not muslim..
> if you say no then i will ask you another question.



You clearly don't understand Islam so let me educate you. 
committing a sin does not make a non muslim or take you outside Islam.

to be a muslim you need to profess the 5 pillars, the first of them being "to believe in the one true God and that Muhammad was his messenger"


The problem Ahmedies get into is that 2nd part. 
the Prophet clearly said that he was the last messenger, where as Ahmedies claim that their leader was also a messenger of God. 
To orthodox muslims, that makes them non muslim.

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## untitled

ratti said:


> that thing only says infidel right?



And *Kafir* in Arabic/Urdu/Persian

Both words used for declared enemies of Islam


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## Nitin Goyal

ratti said:


> actually a few months ago there was a discussion on pdf, when the dead bodies of hindus were marked as kafir to differentiate them from muslims (dont remember when this happened.. can someone help).. in that members say that kafir is not derogatory , it only represents being a non-muslim since it means unbeliever.




there was a plane crash last year


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## Rusty

Since we are talking about islam I should also clear up what a "Wahabi" is

Wahabi is the pejorative term used to describe the salafi thought. 
salafis are orthodox Muslims who don't follow one of the 4 established schools of thought, but rather combine the 4 for a more strict interpretation of Islam. 

They are not a sect or super secret ninjas or what ever else propaganda has been spread about them. 


and just to clarify, I am not a Salafi


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## untitled

ratti said:


> actually a few months ago there was a discussion on pdf, when the dead bodies of hindus were marked as kafir to differentiate them from muslims ......



Not the choice of words I would use


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## Rusty

ratti said:


> Ok I agree... non ahmadi muslims have a problem since prophet mohammed is not considered last prophet. But still if there is a blasphemy law if people insult Islam, there should also be a blasphemy law if muslims insult hinduism, christianity or in this case ahmadi-ism. wouldnt you agree.



There is
by law you are not allowed to insult anyone's religion.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

mafiya said:


> Okay, I was being silent all this time, was waiting if news comes in main stream. This incident happened in my Institution COMSATS Lahore. There is sticker pasted at some places in institution and also in hostels containing Anti Ahmedi remarks. Girl was disturbed due to some reasons and she vented out her anger on by Scratching the anti ahmedi sticker pasted on Girls hostel wall and remove the sticker from the wall, tore it apart and then throw it on the floor, Girls hostel guard and some other girls was watching the whole incidence
> 
> Unfortunately, the sticker had a Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) name on it, Guard got angry, told the warden of the hostel, Warden locked her up in the room, news leaked out, Other girls start gathering out sider her room, Warden called her parents who took her immediately, police called up they came and a case was registered against her.
> 
> that's what happened



Assalam alaikum

qadianies again trying to attack pak society and indains jumped wagon,

first of all what was written on that poster which this bionic lady tore?

i m also surprised of this cult who called themselves peaceful why didnot she goto the authorities and ask them to remove those posters?

it clearly shows this cult is not a peaceful and neither it wants peace in pakistan

@ratti our brother have explained well in post #67 but let me add one more point if u don't know about islam or the issue it is better to ask for calrification instead of giving ur opinion

i also don't remember the incident of dead bodies as identified by kafir ( i think it is not appropriate ) most of the time we refer to it as dead body of non muslim

TARIQ

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

ratti said:


> then why did the creator of the poster which said nasty things about ahmadi was allowed to go free. and this is not the only instance.. people say insulting thing about Qadiani prophet all the time I have read it in this forum and other places (you may not agree he is a prophet but millions others do)
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Read the post #76



OK genius wasn't it better for this student to go and report it instead of taking law in her hands?

TARIQ


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## Rusty

ratti said:


> then why did the creator of the poster which said nasty things about ahmadi was allowed to go free. and this is not the only instance.. people say insulting thing about Qadiani prophet all the time I have read it in this forum and other places (you may not agree he is a prophet but millions others do)
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read the post #76





What did it say?
do you know?
right now at best it is speculation.
keep in mind that blasphemy laws does not ban discussion of a religion. 
you are just not allowed to insult people. 
so as far as we know the poster could of just said "Ahmedies are not Muslims because they dont believe that the prophet Mohammad was the last prophet"


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## ratti

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> OK genius wasn't it better for this student to go and report it instead of taking law in her hands?
> 
> TARIQ


she did not attack anyone.. she just tore down a poster that clearly insulted her religion (you cannot call it cult)

If there was a poster that insulted prophet mohammad and put on your colleger , please tell me how you will react.
honestly i, if you put a poster in a public place that insult my gods like krishna or ganesha , i will also tear it down.
So now she has been sent out.. ok now what happens to that person who created the poster, will that person be punished.. will the students go on a riot to punsih that person?


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## Rusty

ratti said:


> so can I put a poster saying that islam is not a true religion on the college campus and expect students to play by the rules you mention?



You can put a poster of what ever you want.
just remember where and which country you put it in so as to avoid any difficulties later 


Again, we are working on speculation, we don't know what the poster said so this is as far as we can get in this discussion.

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## K-Xeroid

SELF-DELETED


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## American Pakistani

StandForInsaf said:


> Yap only first generation are mohajirs because they migrated , second generation and after that are not mohajirs. Your certainly not a 80 year old baba to be called a mohajir who migrated, if you born here you are/should not considered to be mohajir.



He was talking about Edhi, who is i think 80++.


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## Shabz Nist

Ahmedis are considered Muslims in India and are recognized as Muslims by the constitution of India. There are no clashes between sunni, shia or ahmedi in India. All of them identify themselves and each other as Muslims. 

Intolerance is the root of pakistans problems. And this intolerance will one day consume you. Dont expect India to help when the Chinese refuse.


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## A.Muqeet khan

Android K-Zero said:


> A.Muqeet khan said:
> 
> 
> 
> then understand this sir this is not a place for u to brain fart this is a place for discuttion and learning if u are absolute in ur thought and dont bother justifing it then plz dont even bother posting
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------
> 
> expelled from COMSATS Lahore........... As a Pakistani citizen ,its my reponsibility to describe members like you that its just and over highlighted topic.... and these topic causing very much trouble as you mention above...
> qadiyani vs muslim etc..... and this thread got linked with my opinion....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that what i want to know how is this topic over highlighted ? simple i just want the ans to this and this is creating prob so what does that mean that we as cowards should just bury our heads in ground wow ?
Click to expand...


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Shabz Nist said:


> Ahmedis are considered Muslims in India and are recognized as Muslims by the constitution of India. There are no clashes between sunni, shia or ahmedi in India. All of them identify themselves and each other as Muslims.
> 
> Intolerance is the root of pakistans problems. And this intolerance will one day consume you. Dont expect India to help when the Chinese refuse.



LOL

TARIQ


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## StandForInsaf

American Pakistani said:


> He was talking about Edhi, who is i think 80++.



Edhi is a Gujarati(famous state of India where Muslims are butchered by fanatics) mohajir to pakistan, yap he could be called mohajir because he did higrat actually.


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## Rusty

Shabz Nist said:


> Ahmedis are considered Muslims in India and are recognized as Muslims by the constitution of India. There are no clashes between sunni, shia or ahmedi in India. All of them identify themselves and each other as Muslims.
> 
> Intolerance is the root of pakistans problems. And this intolerance will one day consume you. Dont expect India to help when the Chinese refuse.



Good for you, do you want a cookie or something? 

Where is the intolerance? by that logic Europe is SUPER INTOLERANT because they even have laws that define foods. 
Like you cant call something a cheese unless it has certain amount of milk protein in it. 


Ahmedies in Pakistan are free to worship and practice their religion as they please.
they are just not allowed to falsely advertise themselves as Muslim.

Actually, now that I think of it
India has laws that FORBID people from converting to different religions. 
doesn't sound too tolerant to me. 

you know what, I want that cookie back now.

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## Shabz Nist

In a way its ahmedis fault too. They moved to pakistan during the partition. Imagine what would have been the fate of azim premji had he moved to pakistan under jinnah's persuasion....

Sad.


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## K-Xeroid

A.Muqeet khan said:


> that what i want to know how is this topic over highlighted ? simple i just want the ans to this and this is creating prob so what does that mean that we as cowards should just bury our heads in ground wow ?



I told you before its just a mis behaviour issue .... why are you behaving like metal head...................
*why didnot she goto the authorities and ask them to remove those posters?*Its enough to clearify you.. or you need exmple then just go to your head of institute and slap on his face then see wat he do with you.....

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## Shabz Nist

There are no laws in India that forbid conversion. I know because most of my family members are practising lawyers.


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## Rusty

Shabz Nist said:


> In a way its ahmedis fault too. They moved to pakistan during the partition. Imagine what would have been the fate of azim premji had he moved to pakistan under jinnah's persuasion....
> 
> Sad.




once your are done masturbating make sure to clean up

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## Meesna

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> OK genius wasn't it better for this student to go and report it instead of taking law in her hands?
> 
> TARIQ


 
How is taking off hateful material taking law into one&#8217;s own hands? I don&#8217;t know of any such law. And we all know what the law thinks about Ahmadis and their freedom to believe and express.


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## Rusty

Shabz Nist said:


> There are no laws in India that forbid conversion. I know because most of my family members are practising lawyers.




So there are no state laws in India that forbid a Hindu from officially converting to Islam or Christianity?

strange because it was my Indian friend who actually told me about this


Also this must have been made up by evil Pakistanis as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3534071.stm

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## Shabz Nist

Rusty said:


> So there are no state laws in India that forbid a Hindu from officially converting to Islam or Christianity?
> 
> strange because it was my Indian friend who actually told me about this


 
None, because there is no provision in the constitution for a LAW like that. There are however certain round-abouts that can make conversion hard in some states. This i freely admit.

Maybe you need to read up the actual "laws" before going to your "indian friend".


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Meesna said:


> How is taking off hateful material taking law into one&#8217;s own hands? I don&#8217;t know of any such law. And we all know what the law thinks about Ahmadis and their freedom to believe and express.



maybe what u consider is hate material by ur standard and in fact if that poster is saying qadianies r non muslims it is quite according to the constitution of pakistan 

in any case this proves this cult's aggressive behaviour
i wonder if a girls is so aggressive what the boys would do 

TARIQ


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## Shabz Nist

Ahmedi businessmen ought to consider investing in India and moving assets to India. 

We dont Discriminate

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## Rusty

Shabz Nist said:


> None, because there is no provision in the constitution for a LAW like that. There are however certain round-abouts that can make conversion hard in some states. This i freely admit.
> 
> Maybe you need to read up the actual "laws" before going to your "indian friend".



according to this
Freedom of religion in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Christians convert back to Hinduism
You don't have your facts right so 

so maybe it is you who should be reading on Indian law, seeing as you are an actual Indian (I hope), before going to your "Lawyer family"


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## K-Xeroid

ratti said:


> officially yes..*but i really dont practise any religion*...


Very much true.... So why are you officially use hindu with you ?


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## Rusty

Shabz Nist said:


> Ahmedi businessmen ought to consider investing in India and moving assets to India.
> 
> We dont Discriminate



Right, you flat out murder

2002 Gujarat violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh and also discriminate
India's Muslims in Crisis - TIME

Just in case you were not inclined to read the artical 

"The roots of Muslim rage run deep in India, nourished by a long-held sense of injustice over what many Indian Muslims believe is institutionalized discrimination against the country's largest minority group. The disparities between Muslims, who make up 13.4% of the population, and India's Hindus, who hover at around 80%, are striking

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650,00.html#ixzz1ev5Bqekj"


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## khanz4996



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## Shabz Nist

Rusty said:


> Right, you flat out murder
> 
> 2002 Gujarat violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> oh and also discriminate
> India's Muslims in Crisis - TIME
> 
> Just in case you were not inclined to read the artical
> 
> "The roots of Muslim rage run deep in India, nourished by a long-held sense of injustice over what many Indian Muslims believe is institutionalized discrimination against the country's largest minority group. The disparities between Muslims, who make up 13.4% of the population, and India's Hindus, who hover at around 80%, are striking
> 
> Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650,00.html#ixzz1ev5Bqekj"


 
hahahaha so they are Muslims now ? 

ahmedi businessmen must definitely consider moving assets to India 'cause they are not protected in pakistan......and treated like slaves.


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## Rusty

Shabz Nist said:


> hahahaha so they are Muslims now ?
> 
> ahmedi businessmen must definitely consider moving assets to India 'cause they are not protected in pakistan......and treated like slaves.



oh man, how long does it take for you Indians to masturbate?
just finish up already.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

@ratti 

i m not angry i just wanted to show their true ugly face

TARIQ

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## alimukhtar

Shabz Nist said:


> hahahaha so they are Muslims now ?
> 
> ahmedi businessmen must definitely consider moving assets to India 'cause they are not protected in pakistan......and treated like slaves.



We have no objection on such of their movement to India or else may be in HELL........... Gud luk to dem


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## Shabz Nist

Rusty said:


> oh man, how long does it take for you Indians to masturbate?
> just finish up already.


 
Is this always your fall back strategy ?  no homo


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## K-Xeroid

ratti said:


> @TARIQBINZAYED - thanks for the message.. i can understand your anger.. you are also liek my brother.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> because there are practivcal things like forms where this is asked. also i participate in festivals etc that are hindu in nature.. and thats my community / cultue.. however i dont go to temple every friday. i pray to god only when i m in trouble and dont advise others how they should practise religion.


well i can't predict your future , but i understand your heart... after knowing indians members like, I come to like them .. keep finding your way for truth and intellect with different peoples just don't make any judgement too before... My advice to you.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

ratti said:


> is there any book or writings by qadianis where that thing has been said?
> But still I think that the girls future should not be spoiled for 1 incident. imagine its her whole life ahead of her and all the effort till now wasted. thats what make me feel bad.



if u know urdu it could be in their official website the problem is whenever we give the exact address they change the link

that is the reference 

Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam, Roohani Khazain vol.5 p.547 

TARIQ

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## K-Xeroid

ratti said:


> is there any book or writings by qadianis where that thing has been said?
> But still I think that the girls future should not be spoiled for 1 incident. imagine its her whole life ahead of her and all the effort till now wasted. thats what make me feel bad.


You don't think student had to careful in such matters, must have to follow constitution and laws..?


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## khanz4996

Shabz Nist said:


> hahahaha so they are Muslims now ?
> 
> ahmedi businessmen must definitely consider moving assets to India 'cause they are not protected in pakistan......and treated like slaves.


WE told them to leave in 1973 but these ahmadis are stubborn pricks they dont wanna leave so they should embrace to be killed today or 2mrw


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

@ratti 

we don't know what that poster said ,suppose if the poster is saying ahmadies r non muslims it is pretty according to the constitution of pakistan

but the girl tore a poster that had the name of Prophet pbuh ( we muslims have strong observation about these ppl , they insult our Prophet pbuh) so when she tore that poster in front of some ppl it made them angry ( rightly so ) it was kind of saying a bail mujhay maar



---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------




khanz4996 said:


> WE told them to leave in 1973 but these ahmadis are stubborn pricks they dont wanna leave so they should embrace to be killed today or 2mrw



khan bhai why u spread false info? nobody asked them to leave we just don't want them calling themselves muslims

TARIQ


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## Areesh

mafiya said:


> Okay, I was being silent all this time, was waiting if news comes in main stream. This incident happened in my Institution COMSATS Lahore. There is sticker pasted at some places in institution and also in hostels containing Anti Ahmedi remarks. Girl was disturbed due to some reasons and she vented out her anger on by Scratching the anti ahmedi sticker pasted on Girls hostel wall and remove the sticker from the wall, tore it apart and then throw it on the floor, Girls hostel guard and some other girls was watching the whole incidence
> 
> Unfortunately, the sticker had a Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) name on it, Guard got angry, told the warden of the hostel, Warden locked her up in the room, news leaked out, Other girls start gathering out sider her room, Warden called her parents who took her immediately, police called up they came and a case was registered against her.
> 
> that's what happened


 
So the news is different than what is reported in the news. OK. So drama queens from Bharat are doing drama when such things are common in sickular Bharat too. Interesting. Very interesting.

Koran Exhibition in Delhi Shut Down By Indian Islamic Clerics; Ahmadi Muslims Accused of Distributing &#8216;Distorted&#8217; Koran | The Muslim Times: A Blog to Foster Universal Brotherhood


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## K-Xeroid

ratti said:


> Is there a law that says posters should not be torn? In Pakistan are all students educated on all points of law and constitution.
> Yes we all know that we should not rob, murder or cause nuisance to people. but everyone at different times break the law even though it may be a small offence.
> Now is there a law that says tearing a poster that talks unpalatable things about your religion is an offence ?
> Again let me ask, if I put a poster in your galli, about Islam (not insulting, but just say that its not a correct religion) will you wait and go to the nearest thana and lodge an FIR or will the people rip it apart and burn it? Tell me honestly.
> and for this spoiling your entire future is painful and the punishment is excessive to the so called crime.


I didn't got details on this topic , but there must be other details which will come out with time...
and you can't put any poster or do any deed out of law.. . . . If an indian talk rude about india and say rude about indian army and involve in putting anti indian posters on wall then will he or she considered as traitor and enemy or not.... its not off topic it has link with your question...


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

@ratti 

since u don't know these ppl they insult the Prophet and we know u will never understand our feelings about that but she surely knew it but still went thru it 

i just wanted to clarify that point to u otherwise there is no point discussing this with u but as u can see the guy who started the thread ran away 

take care

TARIQ


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## StandForInsaf

khanz4996 said:


> WE told them to leave in 1973 but these ahmadis are stubborn pricks they dont wanna leave so they should embrace to be killed today or 2mrw



Correct your records brother , They are non Muslims by constitution of Pakistan , no one wants to kill them. Constitution guarantees minority rights.

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## K-Xeroid

ratti said:


> Is there a law that says posters should not be torn? In Pakistan are all students educated on all points of law and constitution.
> Yes we all know that we should not rob, murder or cause nuisance to people. but everyone at different times break the law even though it may be a small offence.
> Now is there a law that says tearing a poster that talks unpalatable things about your religion is an offence ?
> Again let me ask, if I put a poster in your galli, about Islam (not insulting, but just say that its not a correct religion) will you wait and go to the nearest thana and lodge an FIR or will the people rip it apart and burn it? Tell me honestly.
> and for this spoiling your entire future is painful and the punishment is excessive to the so called crime.


and you know clashes in india are more genocidic for religon purposes ... Don't you think a law make it save and make more saviour ways to solve such problems?


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## khanz4996

StandForInsaf said:


> Correct your records brother , They are non Muslims by constitution of Pakistan , no one wants to kill them. Constitution guarantees minority rights.


U SHOULD KNOW WHAT IS WAJIBUL QATAL AND CHECK UR RECORDS AND CHECK WHAT ZA BHUTTO SAID WHEN ANNOUNCING 1973 CONSITITUTION U WILL FIND IT OUT.ONE IS NON MUSLIM AND ONE IS CORRUPTER IN MUSLIMS THEY ARE THE CORRUPTERS WITH THEIR LEADER GHULAM QAIDYANI MI6 AGENT


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## regular

ratti said:


> is there any book or writings by qadianis where that thing has been said?
> But still I think that the girls future should not be spoiled for 1 incident. imagine its her whole life ahead of her and all the effort till now wasted. thats what make me feel bad.


U know she shold be sensible enough not to create such a chance of law and order against her....If she don't know the reality of Islam she sholdn't involve herself in such sensitive matter.....She must have refrained herself from any exploitation of law/constitution......

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------




khanz4996 said:


> U SHOULD KNOW WHAT IS WAJIBUL QATAL AND CHECK UR RECORDS AND CHECK WHAT ZA BHUTTO SAID WHEN ANNOUNCING 1973 CONSITITUTION U WILL FIND IT OUT.ONE IS NON MUSLIM AND ONE IS CORRUPTER IN MUSLIMS THEY ARE THE CORRUPTERS WITH THEIR LEADER GHULAM QAIDYANI MI6 AGENT


Sir He was Corrupter as well as non-Muslim and the biggest MI6 Agent of his time.....working for this evil money......

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## A.Muqeet khan

khanz4996 said:


> U SHOULD KNOW WHAT IS WAJIBUL QATAL AND CHECK UR RECORDS AND CHECK WHAT ZA BHUTTO SAID WHEN ANNOUNCING 1973 CONSITITUTION U WILL FIND IT OUT.ONE IS NON MUSLIM AND ONE IS CORRUPTER IN MUSLIMS THEY ARE THE CORRUPTERS WITH THEIR LEADER GHULAM QAIDYANI MI6 AGENT



well who is wajib-ul-qatal sir i would really like to know and who is to decide that they qualifed to be wajib-ul-qatal they are non- muslims period and by claiming them to be muslims you are invoking the blasphemy law so whats ur justification


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## Thor

There have recently been many many threads opened by people like Meesna and others about Ahmadis suffering in the world especially Pakistan, however recently when this was challenged by myself, guess what, I gone banned from the group till 20/11/2011. And when I raised the question as to my ban via e-mail, it was a simple one liner about discussing religion on the forum and the ban quietly was extended to 22/11/2011. Wonder who and what was behind that.........

Nonetheless, the champions of Ahmadiyya will also find that the door swings both ways and as such, the following is from a brave Ahmadi girl who is challenging the oppression women are suffering in Ahmadiyyat

-----------

To Mirza Masroor Ahmed;

I hope you have access to the internet and read this note or perhaps one of your working staff will print this off and show you it. I hope so because it is the only way you might get this message because I know your staff hide letters like this from you.

I am a 22 year old Waqf e Nau female and came across this Blog after a) my family received an email about it and b) when I got a hysterical phone call from my good friend who was the subject of one of these reports.

I must tell you that I have always doubted Ahmadiyya for as long as I can remember; something or nothing did not feel right. I was not shy about admitting I was an Ahmadi but I had very little conviction in my faith or shall we say, the faith I was born in to.

I can't give you the name of my friend who you slandered and accused of pre marital relations and I can't describe the pictures you had stored of her because she does not know I am writing to you. My friend and I go back 15 years and we are very strong. I love her and she loves me. She is my sister and I will do anything to protect her. I was unable to protect her from you or Shabir Bhatti or any of the Jamaat and I am so angry. You hurt her. She did not deserve this. You hurt us. She was so upset but too scared to contact anyone for advice because she did not want to agitate her family or for you people to write more reports on her. She wanted to go to the police but we were scared of the consequences because then it would be a case of Her against Jamaat and her family would be angry.

I am reading comments and I see people attacking the Cult Girl for exposing the documents. I never understand. It's ok for you because it isn't you being 'backstabbed' and lied about but my friend had every right to know. She was clueless. She felt embarrassed and she felt so betrayed that people would spend the time discussing her. She felt violated and that is because her picture was seen by old men and whoever else.

She might not have 'observed' Purdah but this does not mean you had any right to steal her pictures from facebook and distribute them to men within 'the circle of trust'. You violated her body and her face. Is it a case of 'what she doesn't know will not hurt her'? No this is not the case. What she now knows has changed everything for us. She knows she cannot trust you.She hates the administration and now doubts you too.

It sickens me to the pit of my stomach to think you condone this as normal behavior. You have no right and do not have a duty of care towards us; that is the job of our parents and grandparents. You are not men of her family. You are not her teachers. You are just strangers from the Mosque who spy and write sexist reports.

I wish you would all just stop and leave us alone. It scares me to think this girl only managed to expose the top layer and how many other reports and spying activities you have approved. Maybe I am on there too? I guess maybe I will never know.

We are women and not animals. We are not your women but the women of our fathers and brothers and uncles and sons and husbands. You have no right to talk about any woman in such a horrible way. We are not your women and you have no right to ever talk about any of us like this. This might embarrass you but my friend and all the other girls had already started their Periods or 'Menses' and were as per Islamic guidelines not minors. You were spying and writing reports about women. This is gross. What is the difference between my young sister and a girl in her twenties? Islamically you cannot differentiate. I guess you do not act islamicaly in reality do you?

You recently banned Ahmadis from visiting Facebook for 'our own safety'. This was to protect us from 'anti-Ahmadis'. I think you Ahmadis are the biggest threat to Ahmadis. You use Facebook as a weapon against us and try to dig for dirt. You are right Facebook is dangerous and that is because Ahmadis use it. It is dangerous because Shabir Bhatti uses it. It is dangerous because you use it to download pictures of Ahmadis and then backstab us.

In the Metro Newspaper not many weeks ago there was an article that the Cult of Scientology had followed the makers of South Park Animation after they had poked fun at their beliefs. It reminded me of the Cult here. The following of Mosque visitors, the spying on their 'youth'. That gave me the creeps.

I hope and pray to God this girl continues to expose you. I hope the authorities see though you and you lose your ties with the councils and MPs who attend your meetings. You are double faced and backstabbing and immoral. You are freaks and your behaviour is abnormal. It does not marry with how you behave in front of 'ghair ahmadis'. You might deny it all you want but you know when you are alone locked in your mind that this is true. You present a fake image and I cannot put up with it anymore.

I want you to know that although my friend is resigned to her fate in this community and will probably marry within, I will be finding means to escape. I cannot be a part of this anymore and I cannot have my children be a part of this 'sick little scheme'. My friend doesn't want to hurt her parents but I have told her that our parents are wrong for holding this belief in their hearts and we should escape. She will not come with me because she is scared. She said she doesn't want her daddy's name read out in meetings because he is not a healthy man and suffers from Angina attacks. Why do you do this to people? Why do you name and shame people like this when you promote 'love and respect' for all?

You all need psychiatric help or counselling for your behaviour. Dr Shabir Bhatti should be thoroughly ashamed of himself because I have news for you- the 'tarbiyyat' is failing in this jamaat and is beyond your control. Your own daughter is a sorry state of affairs but you write nasty and hurtful things about my friend.

I feel better for getting this off my covered chest. However this is not the reason I emailed the team of Cult Girl Confessions. I emailed because I want to publicly tell you, Mirza Masroor Ahmed that I am no longer an Ahmadi and have reverted to Islam. Shukr Alhumdulilah. This was a very recent decision but I cannot disclose when I took these steps. I had the help of very learned Muslim friends and I credit the Islamic Society at my University for assisting me in my journey. I would like to remove all misconceptions the Jamaat have stated in an email by our Lajna president who suggests they are troublesome and spread hatred. This is a lie.

I bear witness that there is None worthy of Worship except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammed (SAWS) is the Messenger of Allah.

There is None worthy of worship except Allah, and Muhammed (saws) is the last and final messenger of Allah.

I reject the imposter Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. I believe in Allah who does not resemble any other creation and nor can He be compared to any being: living or dead. I believe in his AngeIs and I will not see them. I believe in All His Books including the Torah, The Old Testament and the Quran. I believe in all His messengers and accept Muhammad, whatever they say or suggest, is the Final in the line of messengers. I believe in the last day and understand I will be held accountable for all my deeds. I accept my Prophet as Muhammad. I accept my Religion as Islam. I accept Allah/God is One and accept He is the reason I am here and to whom I shall return. I accept all good and bad is from Allah. He is my Lord. Muhammad is my Leader. He is the last in line of all Prophets. There is no one after him. He is my leader. I will follow him to the end.

To the team behind this site: Thank you. It was the final push I needed to confirm this isn't right. Is this a Cult? I am certain of this now.

May you all be rewarded- whoever you all are (the girl thing has never been convincing but hey I don&#8217;t mind).

I hope you all get what you finally deserve Jamaatul Ahmadiyya.

This is from me on behalf of all the girls you slandered in your reports. Shame on you. Do you not have mothers or sisters or daughters yourselves?

This site has my full support. I think it is about time the truth was 'unveiled' or should I say the 'faketh unveiled'.

You can try and trace me and have me expelled but I don't care.

Mirza Masroor Ahmed I am no longer an Ahmadi. You are no longer my 'Hudur' and I am only honoring my parents by staying at home

--------

HER WEBSITE

Confessions of a Cult Girl | Ahmadiyya: Ahmadiyya to Islam: Another Cult Girl Confesses! A Letter to Masroor

----

MORE TO FOLLOW

---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

Website is as follows:

Confessions of a Cult Girl | Ahmadiyya

Confessions of an Ahmadi (cult) girl is what it is called........... 

Why the suffering is the question.................

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

Thor bhai welcome back,

too long the letter

TARIQ


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## Thor

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> Thor bhai welcome back,
> 
> too long the letter
> 
> TARIQ



Yeh I know.......... just added it so people can read the heart felt bitterness within the Ahmadiyya and the persecution they suffer... no one should suffer like that

--------------

Of note, are you aware that the Ahmadiyya leadership has BANNED Ahmadis from using Facebook or even having a facebook account.

Check this link from THE AHMADI website

Facebook Policy « Al Islam Ahmadiyya

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

Unfortunately can't open the link

TARIQ


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## Thor

Some individual choice huh...... freedom of speech and choice has gone out of the window.........

Tariq bhai, I cannot send PM's due to the number of posts I have however send me your e-mail address via PM and I will answer your reply there

which link????


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

The one u pasted above
i m not surprised these ppl don't want their members know their true religion so it is better to not let them exposed to media
and social sites 

isolated qadianies r more useful for them

TARIQ


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## Soumitra

Rusty said:


> know you are speculating and making hypotheticals.
> For all we know the poster could of just said "Ahmedies don't drink milk"
> 
> You cannot say the posters were hate filled until we find out what they said.



now you are speculating and making hypotheticals. You cannot say the posters had Prophet Mohammad's until we find out what they said.


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## Thor

Tariq Bhai, I have checked the links and they all work.........!!!!

The below shows that the Ahmadis apparantly claim to be 220 million worldwide, so that is alot of people suffering due to the above

------------------

WORLD HEAD OF AHMADIYYA MUSLIM COMMUNITY SPEAKS OF GLOBAL PERSECUTION

AHMADIYYA MUSLIM JAMA&#8217;AT - SRI LANKA 619/4, Baseline Road, Colombo 9, Sri Lanka.

Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad states that no Ahmadi could ever countenance changing their beliefs

Speaking during one of his weekly address, His Holiness, Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad, Head of the World-wide Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Islam has spoken of the discrimination faced by members of the Community in various countries throughout the world.

His Holiness began his sermon by reminding members of the Community that at times of difficulty a person with true faith does not despair but in fact becomes closer to God Almighty. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has suffered persecution since its inception but recently it has been observed that in certain countries the maltreatment of the Jama&#8217;at has amplified.

Speaking regarding this issue, His Holiness said:

&#8220;The reason we are persecuted is due to the burning jealousy within our opponents.

Non Muslims cannot bear to see Islam succeed whilst in the wider Muslim community the Mullahs are fearful that their followers may realize the truth of Ahmadiyyat and subsequently turn away from them.&#8221;

It is an irrefutable truth that the Ahmadiyya Community has prospered in the face of great adversity throughout its history. The strength of the Jama&#8217;at has always been in its unity. Indeed His Holiness compared the Community to a physical body whereby if even one person suffered then the whole body was affected. Through this perfect unity the Ahmadiyya Jama&#8217;at has always flourished and consequently the various obstacles positioned by the oppressors have been unable to break through the united walls of the Ahmadiyya Community. The Jama&#8217;at has suffered persecution in Pakistan since the very beginning and this despite the fact that the Ahmadiyya Community played a very prominent role in achieving an independent Muslim State.

His Holiness mentioned how the cruelty is continuing to this very day, he said: &#8220;Whenever the opportunity arises false allegations are made against Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan. Just recently a thirteen year old boy was arrested on the spurious grounds that he had physically beaten a Maulvi2! How senseless is such a claim? That a young boy could injure a fully grown man to such an extent that he was hospitalized! The purpose of their cruelty is to frighten our young generation to such an extent that they may give up the practice of their faith. However I have received many, many letters from youngsters who swear by God that they are willing to sacrifice their time, their wealth, their dignity and even their lives for the sake of the Ahmadiyya Jama&#8217;at.&#8221;

His Holiness spoke also of persecution in India and in the Arab world. In India representatives of the Community are regularly subjected to various threats. Whilst in the Arab world the Governments of certain countries, unable to stomach the success of the Ahmadiyya television channel &#8216;MTA Al Arabia&#8217;, closed it down. However, this incident actually turned into an avenue of success for the Community because as a result of the ban, contact was made with another company and now the satellite coverage is much greater and has spread to countries such as Morocco.

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has also suffered in Indonesia for a number of years. Houses and Mosques have been burnt or destroyed and members of the Community have been attacked. Recently a move was made to try and ban the Ahmadiyya Jama&#8217;at from the country however this move was ultimately not sanctioned by the Government. Nevertheless a local newspaper printed a story which suggested that the reason the Government had chosen not to ban the Jama&#8217;at was because it had changed some of its core beliefs. This was a totally unfounded allegation made against the Community.

Commenting upon this His Holiness said:

&#8220;The Ahmadiyya Jama&#8217;at believes that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian was the true Promised Messiah and Mahdi (Guided One). We could never stray from this conviction because the beauty of the Jama&#8217;at is based upon its belief that the Founder of the Community was the true Promised Messiah and Mahdi as foretold by the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

However the content of the article was immediately rejected by the Jama&#8217;at and to its credit the said newspaper printed a statement clarifying the issue on 23 January 2008.

His Holiness concluded by stating that any suggestion that the Indonesian Ahmadiyya Community had weakened in the face of persecution was wholly unjustified. No member of the Community ever entertained the slightest doubt regarding the status of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. As the Promised Messiah himself wrote, his status as a non-law bearing Prophet was bestowed upon him by God Almighty and thus no person or organization could ever take this mantle away from him.

Speaking on the issue, the Press Secretary of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community A. Abdul Aziz said, It is a basic teaching of Islam that religion is a matter for each and every individual to determine freely and without coercion. The practice of one&#8217;s religion, so long as it does not interfere with the rights of others, is a fundamental human right. It is this right that is being denied to Ahmadi Muslims. However members of the Community always are certain that such cruelty will never harm the prosperity of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Islam founded by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India in 1889, spreading throughout the world with the population of over 220 million in190 countries.

End of Release

A. Abdul Aziz.
Press Secretary,
Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamath,
Sri Lanka.

Mobile: +94 777753440

-------------

LankaWeb News

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## Karachiite

Very sad news but this is the fate of Ahmadis. Most Pakistanis have gotten so intolerant and extreme. And then they cry why this country is in a pathetic state.


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## StandForInsaf

khanz4996 said:


> U SHOULD KNOW WHAT IS WAJIBUL QATAL AND CHECK UR RECORDS AND CHECK WHAT ZA BHUTTO SAID WHEN ANNOUNCING 1973 CONSITITUTION U WILL FIND IT OUT.ONE IS NON MUSLIM AND ONE IS CORRUPTER IN MUSLIMS THEY ARE THE CORRUPTERS WITH THEIR LEADER GHULAM QAIDYANI MI6 AGENT



you gota be kidding me?
You want to say we should massacre whole of their population and villages ?

(endorse or refute my supposition which i made after analyzing your statement)


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## StandForInsaf

doubled post error deleted


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## Thor

Taqir bhai you have mail

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## Thor

This is an ex Ahmadi and hear the truth about the persecution they suffer from Ahmadis

Love For All Hatred For None - Ahmadiyya Death Threats - YouTube

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## shree835

Why Other Guys has problem with Ahmadi Muslim...They are peace loving person.


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## Thor

Below link shows what positions women can hold within the Ahmadi organisational setup.................. then they point to the treatment Islam gives to women

http://ahmedi.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Qadiani-Ahmadiyya-Organisation-Chart.png

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## Bratva

shree835 said:


> Why Other Guys has problem with Ahmadi Muslim...They are peace loving person.



Go to any Indian Muslim Scholar and ask him Whether Ahmedi is muslim or not, I would suggest you to go to Dr.Zakir Naik.

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## Thor

For those who claim Ahmadis are modern who are different from mainstream Islam.......... hear their leader of Ahmadis about chastisement of women. read from 6 minutes onwards

Harsh treatment and persecution or not?


Ahmadiyya--Women Beating - YouTube

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## Karachiite

shree835 said:


> Why Other Guys has problem with Ahmadi Muslim...



Because Ahmadis don't enforce their views on others and don't believe in violence. Not to mention they are pretty educated and tolerant.


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## unicorn

mafiya said:


> Okay, I was being silent all this time, was waiting if news comes in main stream. This incident happened in my Institution COMSATS Lahore. There is sticker pasted at some places in institution and also in hostels containing Anti Ahmedi remarks. Girl was disturbed due to some reasons and she vented out her anger on by Scratching the anti ahmedi sticker pasted on Girls hostel wall and remove the sticker from the wall, tore it apart and then throw it on the floor, Girls hostel guard and some other girls was watching the whole incidence
> 
> Unfortunately, the sticker had a Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) name on it, Guard got angry, told the warden of the hostel, Warden locked her up in the room, news leaked out, Other girls start gathering out sider her room, Warden called her parents who took her immediately, police called up they came and a case was registered against her.
> 
> that's what happened



Big thanks for telling the whole story...


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## Developereo

regular said:


> Sir! Pakistan is a free country pplz are free to preach and do anything peacefully... We donot put restrictions on the freedom of speech and basic human rights.The institution can't restrain people from their religious practice or beliefs.....



What if some Sunni group wants to put up posters against Shias, or vice versa? Or some conservative group wants to put up a poster against women's education?

It's a tricky situation and it's best not to go down that road: just ban all religious posters.


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## Donatello

Developereo said:


> Exactly. What on earth is a religious poster doing in an IT school in the first place?
> 
> The school's job is to teach people IT, not police their religious beliefs.



If they don't let it, someone higher up will find dead bodies of their relatives murdered by these terrorist student organizations....just like the old days of KU and Altaf Hussain and all the political non-sense.

This intolerance thing is getting out of hand...........universities are places of higher learning, to nourish your mind. When Germany went all hell lose on Britain, they made one thing sure that non of the bombs ever hit Oxford or Cambridge...as they are places of elite learning for the mankind.......but in Pakistan...it's all about ideas. Many say education will change the minds of Pakistanis....but when you look at the incident(s) like this......it seems like people are so radicalized that nothing can change them.
Sad day indeed.


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## Developereo

penumbra said:


> If they don't let it, someone higher up will find dead bodies of their relatives murdered by these terrorist student organizations....just like the old days of KU and Altaf Hussain and all the political non-sense.
> 
> This intolerance thing is getting out of hand...........universities are places of higher learning, to nourish your mind. When Germany went all hell lose on Britain, they made one thing sure that non of the bombs ever hit Oxford or Cambridge...as they are places of elite learning for the mankind.......but in Pakistan...it's all about ideas. Many say education will change the minds of Pakistanis....but when you look at the incident(s) like this......it seems like people are so radicalized that nothing can change them.
> Sad day indeed.



It's the law of the jungle -- the powerful and vicious prevail!

Police can't do their job because they will either get killed or fired by some high level official who is also a religious nut. Pakistani people can't seem to understand the concept of live and let live. Why is it so hard to focus on your own religion and let others practice theirs?


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## Bhairava

mafiya said:


> Go to any Indian Muslim Scholar and ask him Whether Ahmedi is muslim or not, I would suggest you to go to Dr.Zakir Naik.



He is a loony and I would not go 100 metres within his vicinity, as would any sane person even if he is a Muslim. Also according to Indian constitution they are Muslims.


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## Rusty

Soumitra said:


> now you are speculating and making hypotheticals. You cannot say the posters had Prophet Mohammad's until we find out what they said.



huh?
please explain how I made any hypothetical or speculations?
I never made any claim

just in case you dont know the meaning of those words I reccomend you look at Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com


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## shree835

At Bangalore Book Fair there was a stall from Ahmadi Muslim Guys, I was very impressed with the progressive thinking that they were having  I believe peoples have some wrong assumption about him They gave me some books to read It was really good to understand them.Love for all Hate for none.Good one.


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## shree835

mafiya said:


> Go to any Indian Muslim Scholar and ask him Whether Ahmedi is muslim or not, I would suggest you to go to Dr.Zakir Naik.



Chicha...I don need any Zakir Naik or any scholar to understand ...My Indian constitution says all Muslim are same...nowhere they divided in to Sia, Sunni, wahabi or Ahmadi...be very clear.


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## Zarvan

Lady should be careful when she was tearing a poster with the name of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW what was she thinking that she will not get any reaction


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## shree835

Guys..have some tolerance...If any person does not fit into your view ..Does not mean that you will kill them or you will hate him.

Thanks,
-Shree


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

shree835 said:


> Guys..have some tolerance...If any person does not fit into your view ..Does not mean that you will kill them or you will hate him.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Shree



if that was the case since 60 + years , there will be no non muslims in pakistan 

we don't kill everybody but there r some laws which everybody has to obey 

regarding the tolerance this lady should also have shown some tolerance
BUT SHE DIDNOT

TARIQ

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## Majnun

Santro said:


> Cb4 is a prime example of the reason this thread exists..and why it should NOT exist.
> His avatar is the despicable person responsible for breaking up the country due to his racist attitude.




I disagree with you on Ayub Khan, I believe it was not him, but primarily our Prime Minister in the 1970s, who was responsible for the breakup of Pakistan.


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## Zarvan

shree835 said:


> Chicha...I don need any Zakir Naik or any scholar to understand ...My Indian constitution says all Muslim are same...nowhere they divided in to Sia, Sunni, wahabi or Ahmadi...be very clear.


Sir Ahmadi are not Muslims and your Constitution is nothing in front Of Quran and Sunnah

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------




shree835 said:


> Guys..have some tolerance...If any person does not fit into your view ..Does not mean that you will kill them or you will hate him.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Shree


Sir we can't tolerate insult of our PROPHET SAW and Ahmadis should be careful about it

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## Bang Galore

Zarvan said:


> Sir Ahmadi are not Muslims and your Constitution is nothing in front Of Quran and Sunnah




Actually it's the other way around. The constitution is supreme(in India), not any religious book.

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## shree835

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> if that was the case since 60 + years , there will be no non muslims in pakistan
> 
> we don't kill everybody but there r some laws which everybody has to obey
> 
> regarding the tolerance this lady should also have shown some tolerance
> BUT SHE DIDNOT
> 
> TARIQ



I got it... that law called blasphemy...I Know how this law is being used by Pakistani people.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

such posters are not needed there in the first place


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## Sinnerman108

Thor,

Welcome back.
Hope you stay here longer.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

actually when it comes to austere views on women and the whole "women rights" thing, Ahmeddis have some of the most hardline views

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## Edevelop

shuakataftab said:


> I was replying to "cb4" he was saying that edhi is a gujrati muhajir and not a urdu muhajir so he doesn't count as a muhajir
> 
> *According to common sense anyone who crossed the border to seek permanent settlement in Pakistan during 1947-51 was a muhajir*



Then in that case, I will be known as a mohajir... I think 70% of Pakistan's population now will be based on your analysis. This is not the issue. The fact is whether there is a Punjabi mohajir, a Sindhi mohajir, or even a Gujrati mohair,... they all had contributions in some ways to make Pakistan. Their historic ties including culture and language, have been proven historically to be similar. The issue i'm raising here is about Urdu Speaking community. Yes, they are a type of mohajirs, there is absolutely no doubt about that. But, what i am focusing or trying to clear here is their post 1947 historic ties with some of Pakistan's current/existing ethnics. There is absolutely no similarity and rather i'm going to say that, Urdu mohajirs (from UP, and Bihar) are more like Hindus from India. This by the way is not racism its a fact you simply cannot deny. They are NOT close to punjabis, sindhis, pakhtoons, baluchis, kashmirs, etc... Lets put it this way, IMO, the formation of Bangladesh was correct. That country or territory is far away from us and thus there were no actual historic/cultrual ties. They are totally different people. They had everything in their own place. Why would they want to be part of Pakistan? In theory, Bangalis did not accept urdu language therefore the movement came to start from this angle. Don't forget that there are Biharis in Bangladesh. They were beaten because of their inadequte behaviour.


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## Edevelop

Zulfiqar Mirza And Mqm Fight On Who Made Pakistan - YouTube

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## Roybot

Haha lovely words.


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## Thor

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> actually when it comes to austere views on women and the whole "women rights" thing, Ahmeddis have some of the most hardline views



Alot of the Ahmadi women I know of fear to talk to me in public as they are not allowed to do so, the men within their households make it very clear that they are not to speak to others and from the clip at the top, this man who was the leader of Ahmadis, before his death actually promotes what he calls "normal, moderate chastisement" of women.................


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## Sinnerman108

Thor said:


> Alot of the Ahmadi women I know of fear to talk to me in public as they are not allowed to do so, the men within their households make it very clear that they are not to speak to others and from the clip at the top, this man who was the leader of Ahmadis, before his death actually promotes what he calls "normal, moderate chastisement" of women.................



Nahi yaar,
I have found them to be very liberal.
Can't say much about their family laws etc ...


----------



## Soumitra

Rusty said:


> huh?
> please explain how I made any hypothetical or speculations?
> I never made any claim
> 
> just in case you dont know the meaning of those words I reccomend you look at Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com



There are many people "Speculating" that the reason she was punished was because the poster had Prophet Muhammad's name on it. this is being used to justify her expulsion because she "Insulted" islam.


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## Pioneerfirst

mafiya said:


> Okay, I was being silent all this time, was waiting if news comes in main stream. This incident happened in my Institution COMSATS Lahore. There is sticker pasted at some places in institution and also in hostels containing Anti Ahmedi remarks. Girl was disturbed due to some reasons and she vented out her anger on by Scratching the anti ahmedi sticker pasted on Girls hostel wall and remove the sticker from the wall, tore it apart and then throw it on the floor, Girls hostel guard and some other girls was watching the whole incidence
> 
> Unfortunately, the sticker had a Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) name on it, Guard got angry, told the warden of the hostel, Warden locked her up in the room, news leaked out, Other girls start gathering out sider her room, Warden called her parents who took her immediately, police called up they came and a case was registered against her.
> 
> that's what happened



A nice and neutral view.

Dear friends
"last year a Christian guy who collects garbage from streets ,gave my aunt a complete Quran and said I found it on the road"
so what can be done with that?
We Muslims are very emotional,nothing more

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## aristocrat

Karachiite said:


> Very sad news but this is the fate of Ahmadis. Most Pakistanis have gotten so intolerant and extreme. And then they cry why this country is in a pathetic state.



Discrimination in some form of other is prevelant across all socities.But the real problem arises only when the sane stop raising their voice.Pakistani moderates should see to it that she gets justice.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Pioneerfirst said:


> A nice and neutral view.
> 
> Dear friends
> "last year a Christian guy who collects garbage from streets ,gave my aunt a complete Quran and said I found it on the road"
> so what can be done with that?
> We Muslims are very emotional,nothing more



since that guy was innocent nobody accused him and ur aunt also didnot have any doubts either, but that girl did something and meant to anger the others

TARIQ


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## Thor

salman108 said:


> Nahi yaar,
> I have found them to be very liberal.
> Can't say much about their family laws etc ...



You should hear Mirza Tahir in post #11. He makes his views very clear. Also just watch the women on their television station when it comes on, you will find their women very very oppressed, as shown in the letter by the above sister to the current Ahmadi head Mirza Masroor


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well there are several factions of the Ahmedi movement; for example you have Qadiani jamaat (from india) and you have factions like Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement and Ahmadiyya Muslim Community --- they have some similar beliefs but also some clashing ones, and some different practices....

i dont know about Lahori movement, but Qadiani walas are known to be very strict on ''purdah''


in fact, i heard that it was Qaddianis who were as vocal and angry about the burqa ban in France as the salafist/wahhaby types. . . . .on the subject of purdah and 'womens rights' , Ahmedis and Salafis are quite similar.

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## Thor

That is true, the Ahmadis/Qadianis were the most vocal in France as it effected the very fabric of women within Ahmadiyyat and as such protested loudly.......

It is too much control with the women abuse to facebook bans in place........ it is oppression, especially when one wishes to leave the Ahmadiyya, they are ex-communicated, humiliated with the names read out in Jummah Khutbahs and disassociated with......hence women suffer in silence for the sake of their families


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Thor said:


> That is true, the Ahmadis/Qadianis were the most vocal in France as it effected the very fabric of women within Ahmadiyyat and as such protested loudly.......
> 
> It is too much control with the women abuse to facebook bans in place........ it is oppression, especially when one wishes to leave the Ahmadiyya, they are ex-communicated, humiliated with the names read out in Jummah Khutbahs and disassociated with......hence women suffer in silence for the sake of their families



well let's not kid ourselves -- no matter how educated or progressive we are, we wouldnt think the same of somebody who was Muslim (forget sect) and then he/she chose to leave Islam.....me personally, i wouldnt wish death on them, i wouldnt humiliate them (i would show at least outward respect) --but i wouldnt 'look at them' exactly the same either. That's just the truth. 

religion is a personal thing though, that's my belief


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## Majnun

cb4 said:


> Zulfiqar Mirza And Mqm Fight On Who Made Pakistan - YouTube




What does that show? That Mirza had more thugs with him on that occasion?

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## Zarvan

Bang Galore said:


> Actually it's the other way around. The constitution is supreme(in India), not any religious book.


In your eyes Sir but in Muslim Heart its Quran always


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## newdelhinsa

Zarvan said:


> In your eyes Sir but in Muslim Heart its Quran always



Keep it in your heart do not spill it on the others otherwise people will start dissecting it to degrade, unfortunately.


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## simonyaqoob

Kakgeta said:


> 1) The ban has been reversed.
> 2) That was probably a mistake or an attempt to end the "Jesus *swear word* Christ!" expression.
> 3) How can you even possibly relate that to Christians not having equal rights ? Your just looking for an argument, regardless of where it stems from, taking a non-issue and over-inflating it like that is a sad example of trolling.



1. Okay...I know the ban has been reversed...but you didn't read the whole article I think....Now as the damage has been done....the officials of PTA who made that list....must be punished under the Blasphemy Law of Pakistan!

2. How can they make a mistake like that? Jesus Christ is a very holy personality for both Christians and Muslims...how can they even think about doing that? and for your kind information....No one uses the "Jesus *Swear Word* Christ" expression here in Pakistan" Because Christians and Muslims live in Pakistan along with Hindus and other religions and we all respect Jesus Christ a lot. 

3. How can I relate that to Christians not having equal rights? Well because "Jesus Christ" is everything for Christians....We are NOTHING without Jesus Christ...so if anyone tries to ban Jesus Christ....they are trying to ban our identity.....and their is absolutely NO compromise on Jesus Christ.....NO ONE can DARE to disrespect Jesus Christ. That maybe not an issue for you.....but its a matter of life and death for Christians. And to be honest.....I dont really have time to troll.

And wouldn't you feel angry if that same PTA tries to ban the name of Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? Try to put yourself in our shoes.....you will understand then!

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> This has nothing to do with christians or their religion.
> 
> It is used as an obscene word often.
> 
> The ban has been delayed and a review is being taken by PTA. The words like 'get on' 'pick me' are also banned, so is it against human rights as well.
> 
> Take a break.



I dont know why its not a big deal for all you guys.....I mean come on.....Muslims also respect Jesus Christ....why dont you guys get angry on PTA? HE is your Prophet too....come on guys show some respect here!!!


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## simonyaqoob

Karachiite said:


> So now an Indian will tell us who and who doesn't have equal rights. My mother and her family are Catholics and never have they once been discriminated or felt threatened inside Pakistan. My first name is a "Christian" name and I too have never been discriminated on the basis of religion.
> 
> 
> 
> Indian media at its finest.



Your location flag tells that you are now living in Canada...how can you be discriminated in Pakistan when you don't live here. And you cant say that every news which shows that Christians are being discriminated in Pakistan is generated by Indian media...many news are also true. And when you sent me a private message....I told you that you are not a Christian thats why you dont feel discriminated. For example.....PTA is trying to ban "Jesus Christ" Now you dont care about Jesus Christ because you are an Agnostic....and not a Christian.....so you wont feel bad or discriminated.

---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------




AUz said:


> How many Christians are there in Pakistan? ALL information agencies say *1.6 %* while some extremist Christians I know of claim that they are *15%* of total Pakistani population



Yes we are more than 15% in Pakistan....go out and see...in Punjab.....every second house is a Christian house!


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## JonAsad

No the Christians do not have equal rights in Pakistan- Thats a fact-

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## Meesna

> *Hate campaign against the Ahmadiyya Community*
> 
> Just a few days before Eid-ul-Azha, I visited The Holy Family hospital in Rawalpindi to see my friend who was admitted there. During this visit, I witnessed something very odd and alarming. It was a hate campaign against the Ahmadiyya Community. Initially, like most others, I saw and ignored. However, as the days passed, I felt that this hate campaign was turning into a full-fledged movement against the Ahmadiyya community that resides in this part of the city.
> 
> This hate campaign was carried out quite visibly, in the form of banners placed in different areas of the E-block, threatening the Ahmaddiya community to stop their &#8220;un-constitutional&#8221; activities in the area. Incidentally, right after Eid, a set of new banners with a stronger message replaced the old ones. The word &#8220;protest&#8221; changed to &#8220;movement&#8221; in these banners which were again placed in various parts of E-Block, Satellite Town, including Holy Family Road, College Chowk, Hyderi Chowk and even in Commercial Market. It also announced boldly that, an &#8220;action committee&#8221; has been formed. On being enquired about the real faces and brains behind this campaign, the residents of the area, were unwilling to talk.
> 
> *Apparently, the city administration is almost intentionally waiting for an untoward incident to occur and yet, not willing to take action against this religious hatemongering.*



Shiraz Hassan: Hate campaign against the Ahmadiyya Community.


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## Meesna

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> since that guy was innocent nobody accused him and ur aunt also didnot have any doubts either, but that girl did something and meant to anger the others
> 
> TARIQ



How about that Hafiz e Quran who was burnt alive in Gujranwala few years back? How about that Jamaat-Islami supporter factory owner who was killed on false charges because the local Mullah accused him over the loud speaker of the local mosque? How about those burnt alive in Gojra including children? What was there fault? Just a few examples. All blasphemy charges are false so far. There is no credible evidence of any blasphemy claims. However the incitement to violence by extremists is there and allowed by authorities as the case in COMSATS. No chance is left for the victim of hate. And if the victim of hate tries to remove hate material, viola, he/she is dead now. What a hateful, bigoted and violent religion. "We will get you, by hook or crook" is the theme.

Compare it to this incident;



> Arrest over video of 'racist rant' on Croydon to Wimbledon tram
> 
> A woman has been arrested after an online video apparently showed a woman abusing ethnic minority passengers on a packed south London tram.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15923875

You religion has a BIG problem and proof is in the pudding. Accept that.


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## Pioneerfirst

Meesna said:


> Shiraz Hassan: Hate campaign against the Ahmadiyya Community.



Yes,I have seen such banners in my home town.
I do not know if someone is observing his/her religion then why we Muslims need to worry. 
At least these Ahmadi people are not killing anyone, as the so called true Muslims are doing in terrorist attacks and sectarian violence.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 PM ----------




Meesna said:


> Shiraz Hassan: Hate campaign against the Ahmadiyya Community.



Yes,I have seen such banners in my home town.
I do not know if someone is observing his/her religion then why we Muslims need to worry. 
At least these Ahmadi people are not killing anyone, as the so called true Muslims are doing in terrorist attacks and sectarian violence.


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## Pioneerfirst

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> since that guy was innocent nobody accused him and ur aunt also didnot have any doubts either, but that girl did something and meant to anger the others
> 
> TARIQ


Friend this is not about that christian guy,its about Quran,who threw Quran on the road? 
Every year when the canals are flow less in winter for cleaning,its common to see paper of Quran and some times complete Qurans in the mud,who does this?
We Muslims use Quranic verses in "Taveez" and Jado Tona and carry the same verses all the time(in bathroom or bathing),who is responsible?
Actually the matter is perception,we Muslims think ourselves as owners of Islam,we do not see ourselves but point to others.
No one has harmed Islam other than Muslims,

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## Shabz Nist

Islam desperately needs a renaissance . Clearly there is something very wrong here.


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## Zarvan

Shabz Nist said:


> Islam desperately needs a renaissance . Clearly there is something very wrong here.


No Sir Islam is the fastest growing Religion in the world and the world should be careful because we don't tolerate insult of our PROPHET SAW


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## Shabz Nist

Zarvan said:


> No Sir Islam is the fastest growing Religion in the world and the world should be careful because we don't tolerate insult of our PROPHET SAW


 
Yes you kill them. I rest my case. Islam definitely needs a renaissance.


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## Zarvan

Shabz Nist said:


> Yes you kill them. I rest my case. Islam definitely needs a renaissance.


No Sir You Need Islam and these Ahmedis to need to come back to Islam and every Non Muslim should avoid insulting our PROPHET SAW or it will increase tensions


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## Meesna

> Am I a Heretic?
> 
> There is something wrong with me.
> 
> I see the everyday killing of Shias, Ahmadis and Christians in my fatherland and something in me recoils in horror. While the gruesome acts of these killers are met with a mute applause by most of my countrymen, why is it that these revolt me?
> 
> They tell me I am a heretic.
> 
> I tell them to please open their eyes and look around. That they will find every city, town, village and family now infested with these bigots. That these pious killers appeal to the worst passions of the human heart. That they sow the seeds of dissonance and hatred wherever they go. That sectarian hatred is only the beginning and a time is not very far when, in the name of God, they will get brother to denounce brother, wives to inform on their husbands, mothers to accuse their children and neighbors to spy on their neighbors. I tell them that given the power these extremists will punish dissent with whip, chain, and slaughter. They laugh at me and tell me scornfully that I am a heretic. They say why should mercy be shown to someone whom God will burn in eternal fire? They promise me dark dungeons as my ultimate abode where my flesh will rot in the clasp of chains and flames will devour me forever.



Am I a Heretic? | Truth Spring


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## iioal malik

If u ignore the big picture then these small things will keep happening! Pakistan and most of the Muslim countries have declared ahmadis as kafir n this is the reality now if u don't fix this problem then more students will be expelled more racism n more misbehave.

It would be better for all the Ahmadis to move out of pakistan in my opinion


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## khanz

iioal malik said:


> If u ignore the big picture then these small things will keep happening! Pakistan and most of the Muslim countries have declared ahmadis as kafir n this is the reality now if u don't fix this problem then more students will be expelled more racism n more misbehave.
> 
> It would be better for all the Ahmadis to move out of pakistan in my opinion



umm..........instead of moving them out of Pakistan how about we educate ourselves learn to respect our fellow Pakistanis even if we disagree with their religion stay in peace with our minorities , leaving them be and give them equal rights instead ?

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## Pioneerfirst

iioal malik said:


> If u ignore the big picture then these small things will keep happening! Pakistan and most of the Muslim countries have declared ahmadis as kafir n this is the reality now if u don't fix this problem then more students will be expelled more racism n more misbehave.
> 
> It would be better for all the Ahmadis to move out of pakistan in my opinion



If you dont like your face,then breaking mirror is no solution


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## untitled

iioal malik said:


> It would be better for all the Ahmadis to move out of pakistan in my opinion



What will that accomplish ?


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## K-Xeroid

khanz said:


> umm..........instead of moving them out of Pakistan how about we educate ourselves learn to respect our fellow Pakistanis even if we disagree with their religion stay in peace with our minorities , leaving them be and give them equal rights instead ?


Who is getting equal rights in pakistan other then elites..?
Here Greed is much bigger problem then intolerance........

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Pioneerfirst said:


> Friend this is not about that christian guy,its about Quran,who threw Quran on the road?
> Every year when the canals are flow less in winter for cleaning,its common to see paper of Quran and some times complete Qurans in the mud,who does this?
> We Muslims use Quranic verses in "Taveez" and Jado Tona and carry the same verses all the time(in bathroom or bathing),who is responsible?
> Actually the matter is perception,we Muslims think ourselves as owners of Islam,we do not see ourselves but point to others.
> No one has harmed Islam other than Muslims,



i don't approvE such actions

TARIQ


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## untitled

Android K-Zero said:


> Who is getting equal rights in pakistan other then elites..?



No one is getting equal rights. Some are getting more some less


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## K-Xeroid

pdf_shurtah said:


> No one is getting equal rights. Some are getting more some less


So why not minorities + majorities reunites theirself for getting equal rights instead of offensing each other?


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## untitled

Android K-Zero said:


> So why not minorities + majorities reunites theirself for getting equal rights instead of offensing each other?



how ?


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## K-Xeroid

pdf_shurtah said:


> how ?


There lots of on going problems in pakistan, Nobody against the minorities rights, well its an gud option to resolve all of our problems with mutual understanding.... and Its neccesary that we must choose better policey makers ....


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## Thor

What has happened to the right of women to vote........... are they not human beings any longer.....

The following clip is from AK Sheikh, a very well known ex-Ahmadi who left Ahmadiyya and exposed many things hidden within the cult like set up. Why are these women suffering.....

576- Ahmadi Woman Should Have The Right Of Vote To Elect The Khalifa! - YouTube


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Majnun said:


> What does that show? That Mirza had more thugs with him on that occasion?



a room full of jahhils


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## simonyaqoob

And what happened to My Thread? My thread was....."Do Christians have equal rights in Pakistan?" We were having a very nice and constructive debate.....but the Admin removed our last posts and changed the name of my thread....I just feel that it was not right at all. 

Dear Admin...can you please tell me why you did that? I checked my private messages for the reason but I didn't get any reason....it will be appreciated if you can please provide me the reason why you did this to my thread.

Thank you


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Christians have faced injustices, but to say they are discriminated on a broad level is ridiculous.....

and besides -- we have so many threads on this subject, why the need to make a new one

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## Meesna

Another case. 



> Blasphemy allegations: Ahmadi family under threat from clerics
> 
> LAHORE:
> An Ahmadi family in Khushab says it is being victimised by local clerics who instigated the expulsion of a 16-year-old from his school and are now pressing the police to register blasphemy cases against him and his father.
> 
> The father, Hakim Jameel, told The Express Tribune that activists of the Aalmi Majlis Tahafuz Khatme Nabuwat (AMTKN) were also trying to get his other two sons expelled from a college where they are ICom and BSc students.
> 
> AMTKN members insisted that the 16-year-old student of class 10 and his father had both committed blasphemy. They also made thinly-veiled threats to this correspondent not to publish this story.
> 
> Qari Saeed, the divisional president of AMTKN, and Waqas Ahmed moved the application seeking a case under Section 295-C of the Pakistan Penal Code against Rana Sajeel, 16, for allegedly making derogatory remarks about the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and under Section 289 against his father Rana Hakim Jameel for allegedly describing Sajeel as a Muslim in the school admission form.
> 
> The law does not permit anyone to call Ahmadis Muslims. Jameel denied putting down Islam as Sajeel&#8217;s religion, saying he had put down Ahmadi, as he had done when his other sons were applying to colleges.
> 
> He said the allegation against his son stemmed from a fight at school. He said that the school&#8217;s principal had overheard some students abusing Sajeel and had beaten them up. The students accused Sajeel of telling on them and beat him up. Sajeel then went to the principal to complain. &#8220;They made up a story, telling the principal they had attacked him because he made blasphemous remarks,&#8221; Jameel said.
> 
> He said that the principal of Al-Tahir Public School, Haji Aslam, was an AMTKN supporter and had lost an eye during a protest organised by the group. &#8220;The principal expelled my son and then got together with other AMTKN activists to lodge a police complaint,&#8221; Jameel said.
> 
> He said since the family had been accused of blasphemy, the AMTKN had been organising meetings at a mosque near their residence where they made inflammatory speeches. &#8220;People have turned against us,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We are under serious threat.&#8221;
> 
> He said that a property dispute may also lie behind the accusations. In August 2011, the Jamaat-i-Ahmadia had moved the courts against a woman named Zaibun Nisa who had tried to sell off land belonging to the Jamaat as her own, he said. Her grandfather had donated the land to the Jamaat in his will, he said.
> 
> The court ordered the registration of a case against Nisa and four others for fraud. She spent about three weeks in jail, before she announced that she was renouncing the community and moved in with Qari Saeed. He also arranged for her bail, Jameel said.
> 
> Qari Saeed said that he had no doubt that the police would register the blasphemy cases as &#8220;hundreds of students&#8221; had told him about the incident. Asked why he had not contacted the Khushab DPO when he was summoned as part of the investigation, he said: &#8220;The police should come to me if they need me. If I go to the police station, thousands of Muslims will come with me and there will be unrest.&#8221;
> 
> He admitted that Zaibun Nisa and her family were residing with him, but insisted that had nothing to do with this case. Asked about the property dispute, he lost his temper and hung up. Shortly after, a man identifying himself as AMTKN secretary general Abdullah phoned this correspondent and sought the address of The Tribune offices, saying he would send over some Lahore-based activists. As of late Wednesday night, they had not arrived.
> 
> *A relative of Qari Saeed who taught at Al-Tahir School, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that Sajeel had been his student and he did not believe that the boy had made blasphemous remarks. He said Saeed had a deep personal hatred towards Ahmadis.*
> 
> Khushab DPO Imran Mahmood said that he was personally investigating the case and would not register the FIRs without substantial evidence. He said he would decide the applications in a few days.



Blasphemy allegations: Ahmadi family under threat from clerics &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Meesna

Qari Saeed sounds like someone who may be posting at PDF.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

actually we are not privvy to the exact details....many of these cases involve simply bad blood, or family feud or some kind of land-related or material-related vendetta.....these words "commit blasphemy" or "insulted Prophet PBUH" are just used out of convenience to try "damaging" the credibility of the accused

so it's not merely hatred on sectarian level (well perhaps it could be who here knows?) but just people being emotional twats and trying to be opportunistic to settle scores


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## simonyaqoob

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Christians have faced injustices, but to say they are discriminated on a broad level is ridiculous.....
> 
> and besides -- we have so many threads on this subject, why the need to make a new one



I started that thread and the topic of that thread was "Do Christians have equal rights in Pakistan?" Admin changed the name of my thread...removed last posts by me and other people....we were having a constructive debate...but they still did it....I just want to know why? Admin could have started a new sticky thread on that topic.....why they ruined my thread? And you think Christians are not discriminated because you are not a Christian....only a Christian knows if he/she is discriminated or not.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

simonyaqoob said:


> I started that thread and the topic of that thread was "Do Christians have equal rights in Pakistan?" Admin changed the name of my thread...removed last posts by me and other people....we were having a constructive debate...but they still did it....I just want to know why? Admin could have started a new sticky thread on that topic.....why they ruined my thread? And you think Christians are not discriminated because you are not a Christian....only a Christian knows if he/she is discriminated or not.



I'm Muslim, you're Christian --but together, we are Pakistanis.

Thats all that matters my man.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

and i can assure you that you are allowed to discuss these types of things openly on the forum, but you can't make sensationalist type of headlines.....in this case, a link was initially not provided.

don't think or have idea that there's some kind of agenda here....we have Pakistanis on here of all sects and ethnicity groups and these diverse people are welcome always and encouraged to participate in talks

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## 53fd

simonyaqoob, I would like to say we all have our grievances against the Pakistani establishment. I sympathize with you 100%. I fully support everyone on that issue. But we don't think of you any differently, you are Pakistanis, we are Pakistanis. You are not on a lesser (or higher) grounding than me, or any other Pakistani. Let's work together to resolve our issues, & the issues we all face in our society. Our society has a long way to go before these injustices that you face, & everyone else faces end.

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## simonyaqoob

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and i can assure you that you are allowed to discuss these types of things openly on the forum, but you can't make sensationalist type of headlines.....in this case, a link was initially not provided.
> 
> don't think or have idea that there's some kind of agenda here....we have Pakistanis on here of all sects and ethnicity groups and these diverse people are welcome always and encouraged to participate in talks



Thank you for your kind reply....yes we are Pakistani....I am from Pakistan and I am proud to say that I am a Pakistani....I just dont want to be cut off from all other Pakistanis due to my faith...those words mean a lot to me! Thank you

---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> simonyaqoob, I would like to say we all have our grievances against the Pakistani establishment. I sympathize with you 100%. I fully support everyone on that issue. But we don't think of you any differently, you are Pakistanis, we are Pakistanis. You are not on a lesser (or higher) grounding than me, or any other Pakistani. Let's work together to resolve our issues, & the issues we all face in our society. Our society has a long way to go before these injustices that you face, & everyone else faces end.



Yes we are all equal according to the constitution of Pakistan....Now that I have got my answers....I will post articles here according to the above topic


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## Meesna

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I'm Muslim, you're Christian --but together, we are Pakistanis.
> 
> Thats all that matters my man.


 
How is he a Pakistani? Does he have the same rights as you? Obviously not. Effectively he is your slave. Its in his interest to keep his master, you, happy or else..he could also be dead among other things.

---------- Post added at 09:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and i can assure you that you are allowed to discuss these types of things openly on the forum, but you can't make sensationalist type of headlines.....



Yes, yes, don't make waves, don't try to change this master-slave status quo, that's what we don't like. Be the slave that you are then we will tolerate you. No matter its 21st century, not for us. We still have the mindset from dark ages.


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## Meesna

simonyaqoob said:


> I started that thread and the topic of that thread was "Do Christians have equal rights in Pakistan?" Admin changed the name of my thread...removed last posts by me and other people....we were having a constructive debate...but they still did it....I just want to know why? Admin could have started a new sticky thread on that topic.....why they ruined my thread? And you think Christians are not discriminated because you are not a Christian....only a Christian knows if he/she is discriminated or not.



In the wake of 24 soldiers dead its bit difficult to get sympathies if its clear that Pakistani state itself systematically persecutes its own people and grossly violates human rights, so at this point false patriotism must take precedence over human rights. This also gives you the answer to your question "Do Christians have equal rights in Pakistan?" You should not have any illusion if there was any.


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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> How is he a Pakistani? Does he have the same rights as you? Obviously not. Effectively he is your slave. Its in his interest to keep his master, you, happy or else..he could also be dead among other things.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, yes, don't make waves, don't try to change this master-slave status quo, that's what we don't like. Be the slave that you are then we will tolerate you. No matter its 21st century, not for us. We still have the mindset from dark ages.



You're not Pakistani, are you? Be honest.


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## Meesna

bilalhaider said:


> You're not Pakistani, are you? Be honest.



If being Pakistani means to be a bigot of the highest order, have dark ages mentality in 21st century and deny equal right to all then no I&#8217;m not. 

Do you really live in US? Ever heard of civil liberties? Now be honest.


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## Karachiite

I only know that freedom of religion is in the constitution. So anyone barking about not having same rights can kiss the part of my body where the sun don't shine. 
Anyone who's spent some time in Karachi would know there are many Christians and Parsis who are very wealthy generally old money. 
I myself come from a mix religious family where my mom and her side are Catholics. Never been denied any "rights". For the most part middle and upper class Christians live a satisfied life here. As for the poor they suffer the same as Muslims who are poor. Its a pathetic mentality to blame social conditions on religious discrimination. 

This is my unbias view because I don't follow either religion closely.

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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> If being Pakistani means to be a bigot of the highest order, have dark ages mentality in 21st century and deny equal right to all then no I&#8217;m not.



Yes, I didn't think you were Pakistani. And no, being a Pakistani doesn't mean being any of those things. But reveling in other people's pain & misery like you do shows you aren't Pakistani. 



> Do you really live in US? Ever heard of civil liberties? Now be honest.



Yes, I live in the US, & we're talking about Pakistan, not the US. Period.


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## Meesna

Karachiite said:


> I only know that freedom of religion is in the constitution. So anyone barking about not having same rights can kiss the part of my body where the sun don't shine.



Here is just one law;



> 298-C. Person of Quadiani group, etc., calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith: Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis' or by any other name), who directly or indirectly, poses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims *shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine*.



Ordinance XX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistani constitution is an apartheid constitution.

Now when can I kiss?


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## Meesna

Karachiite said:


> This is my unbias view because I don't follow either religion closely.



Don't know if its unbiased but its certainly based on ignorance. There are numerous documented cases of Christians being mistreated. However this phenomenon is more prevalent in Punjab that is why you have a different perception. Do not confuse your personal experience with the whole picture. If you have not met a rapist does not mean rapes do not happen and we should deny their existance.


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## Karachiite

Meesna said:


> Here is just one law;
> 
> 
> 
> Ordinance XX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Pakistani constitution is an apartheid constitution.
> 
> Now where can I kiss?



This is some ordinance against Ahmadis. They have been designated as a separate religion. If it stopped them from practising their religion then it would be a stab at their liberty. 
Maybe you don't know much but Ahmadis make up a sizeable amount in the Pakistani Army. 
Your trying really hard but keep trying. Practice makes perfect.

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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> Here is just one law;
> 
> 
> 
> Ordinance XX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Pakistani constitution is an apartheid constitution.
> 
> Now when can I kiss?



Yes, this is for the Ahmadi group. I thought we were taking about Christians & other minorities here?

Ahmadis have to go through more injustices as compared to other religious minorities. And I hope & wish they are able to get their rights, even if I don't agree with their views. Period.

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## Karachiite

Meesna said:


> Don't know if its unbiased but its certainly based on ignorance.



Its ignorance because I'm protecting my country and I nor anyone I know have been subject to discrimination based on religious faith. 
So now this is ignorance but your past posts are 100% perfect

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## Meesna

bilalhaider said:


> Yes, I didn't think you were Pakistani. And no, being a Pakistani doesn't mean being any of those things. But *reveling in other people's pain & misery* like you do shows you aren't Pakistani.
> 
> What are you referring to? I am the one complaining of human rights to which you declare me non-Pakistani.
> 
> Yes, I live in the US, & we're talking about Pakistan, not the US. Period.



So Pakistan does not have civil liberties, you agree.

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Yes, this is for the Ahmadi group. I thought we were taking about Christians & other minorities here?
> 
> Ahmadis have to go through more injustices as compared to other religious minorities. And I hope & wish they are able to get their rights, even if I don't agree with their views. Period.



This is what you said;



> I only know that *freedom of religion* is in the constitution.


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## 53fd

Karachiite said:


> Its ignorance because I'm protecting my country and I nor anyone I know have been subject to discrimination based on religious faith.
> So now this is ignorance but your past posts are 100% perfect



Karachiite bhai, forget this guy. You yourself know me well on this forum, & I have never shied away from the fact when I said my sect has faced a lot of injustices as well, maybe even more than what other religious minorities have had to face. My dad's brother was shot dead in Malir in the 90s by terrorists when he provided free healthcare to the locals there. A month ago, my cousin's husband got killed in the form of target killings in Gulshan-e-Iqbal. We all have our grievances. I want to work together with everyone to resolve the injustices we face in society. I see you, & every other citizen regardless of religion 100% Pakistani. I do not see things through the spectrum of religion. Forget the haters like Meesna that revel in other people's pain & misery, no need to get disheartened by their talk.

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## Meesna

Karachiite said:


> Its ignorance because I'm protecting my country



You are protecting bigotry and persecution nothing else.



> So now this is ignorance but your past posts are 100% perfect



Meaning?


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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> So Pakistan does not have civil liberties, you agree.



No, Pakistan has civil liberties, but it is far from ideal, & we need to work on that to make our society better. We are a young country, the US only gave voting rights to women a few decades ago, & slavery was legalized till the first 90 years of the US's independence. It was abolished only in 1865 under the 13th amendment of the US constitution, & the US has gotten its independence in 1776. So you need to look at things in perspective. 



> This is what you said;



I didn't say that.


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## Meesna

bilalhaider said:


> No, Pakistan has civil liberties, but it is far from ideal,



What? Islamic Republic is far from perfect compared to kuffar states? What happened?

But seriously, in contrast to what you are implying, Pakistan was fine when it came into being. Its the so called Islamisation process that has brought it to this state. Compared to US, Pakistan has actually gone backwards.


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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> So Pakistan does not have civil liberties, you agree.



Quoting directly from the constitution:



> *20.	Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.*
> Subject to law, public order and morality:-
> (a)	*every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and*
> (b)	*every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.*
> 
> 21.	*Safeguard against taxation for purposes of any particular religion.*
> *No person shall be compelled to pay any special tax the proceeds of which are to be spent on the propagation or maintenance of any religion other than his own.*
> 
> 22.	*Safeguards as to educational institutions in respect of religion, etc.*
> *(1) No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruction, or take part in any religious ceremony, or attend religious worship,* if such instruction, ceremony or worship relates to a religion other than his own.
> (2) *In respect of any religious institution, there shall be no discrimination against any community in the granting of exemption or concession in relation to taxation.*
> (3) *Subject to law:*
> (a)	no religious community or denomination shall be prevented from providing religious instruction for pupils of that community or denomination in any educational institution maintained wholly by that community or denomination; and
> (b) *no citizen shall be denied admission to any educational institution receiving aid from public revenues on the ground only of race, religion, caste or place of birth.*
> 
> 25.	Equality of citizens.
> (1) *All citizens are equal before law and are entitled to equal protection of law.*
> 
> 26.	*Non-discrimination in respect of access to public places.*
> (1) In respect of access to places of public entertainment or resort not intended for religious purposes only, *there shall be no discrimination against any citizen on the ground only of race, religion, caste, sex, residence or place of birth.*
> 
> 27.	Safeguard against discrimination in services.
> *(1) No citizen otherwise qualified for appointment in the service of Pakistan shall be discriminated against in respect of any such appointment on the ground only of race, religion, caste, sex, residence or place of birth.*



[Chapter 1: Fundamental Rights] of [Part II: Fundamental Rights and Principles of Policy]

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## Meesna

bilalhaider said:


> Quoting directly from the constitution:
> 
> [Chapter 1: Fundamental Rights] of [Part II: Fundamental Rights and Principles of Policy]



These are effectively null and void. 

Here is the real story;



> 298-C. Person of Quadiani group, etc., calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith: Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis' or by any other name), who directly or indirectly, poses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or* preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations*, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims *shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine*.


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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> These are effectively null and void.
> 
> Here is the real story;



I have already told you, what Ahmadis have to go through is worse than what other religious minorities in Pakistan have to go through. I hope we get to amend our laws on that. But you cannot generalize that to every religious community/minority residing in Pakistan.

Btw, the Ahmadi community isn't looked upon kindly by Indian Muslims either. This is what the highest authority of Indian Muslims had to say about Ahmadis:



> (Fatwa 332=307/N)
> 
> *The Mirzais (Qadyanis, Ahmadiyas) are kafir. This issue is agreed upon by the Muslim Ummah.*
> 
> These books may be useful: (1) Radd-e-Qadyaniat ke Zarrin Usool (2) Suboot Hazir Hain (3) Muhazarat of Darul Uloom on Qadyanism
> 
> Allah (Subhana Wa Ta'ala) knows Best
> 
> Darul Ifta,
> Darul Uloom Deoband



The discrimination against Ahmadis is not only a Pakistani problem, it's a Muslim problem that exists in the Muslim world. In Saudi Arabia, I believe Ahmadis aren't even allowed to live in their country, they are arrested & deported right away.


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## Meesna

Point is where it says in the constitution that there is freedom of religion it&#8217;s merely lying. So constitution is not worth more than toilet paper. No point quoting it.


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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> Point is where it says in the constitution that there is freedom of religion it&#8217;s merely lying. So constitution is not worth more than toilet paper. No point quoting it.



That's not correct. There is freedom of religion for everyone except Ahmadis. I hope we can give them their rights so they don't have to face the injustices they do.


----------



## Meesna

bilalhaider said:


> That's not correct. There is freedom of religion for everyone except Ahmadis. I hope we can give them their rights so they don't have to face the injustices they do.



You obviously don&#8217;t understand what is a constitution. If it says you have a right then you have the right. If you don't have the right then its not a constitution it&#8217;s a joke and Pakistani constitution is a joke to say the least.


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## 53fd

Meesna said:


> You obviously don&#8217;t understand *what is a constitution*.



Learn how to make a proper sentence first before explaining to me what a constitution is.



> If it says you have a right you have a right. However Pakistani constitution is a joke to say the least.



What the constitution says is that people have freedom of religion. But there was a separate ordinance passed against Ahmadis. There is a US constitution as well, but then there were Acts such as the Patriot Act passed in this country as well that were not in accordance to the US constitution. The War Powers Resolution was enacted in the US as well that went against the US constitution.


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## Meesna

That's because the constitution is a joke. It doesn&#8217;t mean what it says. Constitutions are not arbitrary otherwise they are not constitutions. That&#8217;s why its called constitution.

If you follow the constitution only when you feel like it then it&#8217;s not a constitution. Call it something else but not constitution.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Mr. Yaqoob:


we have our fair share of arseholes who only profit and aim to destabilize our country through dividing our people. Our greatest asset is our people --especially our young population. Those who aim to fragment our people, divide people on ethnic or religious lines --they are basically the #1 enemy of the country.

so don't allow your opinion to be "molded" by degenerate bastards with such nefarious aims....allow your opinion to be "molded" by people like myself --and a good majority (sometimes a silent one, unfortunately) who value all Pakistanis as equals.


I'm happy to see that Christian community has given tremendously and contributed a lot towards Pakistan --in different fields (including the military and judicial system, commerce, and even sports)


you're a fellow Pakistani --so as far as i'm concerned it's all that matters.

---------- Post added at 01:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 AM ----------




Meesna said:


> You obviously don&#8217;t understand what is a constitution. If it says you have a right then you have the right. If you don't have the right then its not a constitution it&#8217;s a joke and Pakistani constitution is a joke to say the least.



it's wrong to say "it's a joke" --that's almost like a slap on your country no?

we should simply ask -- "which Constitution??" It's been meddled with and amended so many times by self-serving people calling themselves leaders

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## Mumbai Man

*Honour killing: Man kills sister over suspicion*

QUETTA: A man gunned down his sister and another man, on suspicion of illicit relations between the two, in the Usta Mohammad area of Jaffarabad, police said on Saturday.
According to the police, the accused Imtiaz Ahmed killed his sister and another man identified as Raja.
Police rushed to the spot and shifted the bodies to a local hospital for autopsy.
The accused managed to escape from the scene after committing the crime. The dead bodies were handed over to the relatives for burial.
A case has been registered and an investigation is underway. Police have also launched a manhunt in the area.

Honour killing: Man kills sister over suspicion &#8211; The Express Tribune

shamefull 

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------

*Professors, lecturers protest teacher&#8217;s killing*

QUETTA: 
Academics condemned the targeted killing of their fellow Mohammad Danish, who was shot dead by unidentified assailants near his residence in Nawa Killi on Tuesday.
In a memorial held at Balochistan University&#8217;s auditorium on Friday, senior professors and lecturers paid tribute to the slain lecturer, who served for seven years at the science and information technology department.
Five lecturers and professors had been killed in incidents of targeted killing since 2008, said Kaleemullah Badech, president of the Academic Staff Association Balochistan.
&#8220;Teachers are being targeted frequently with no investigation,&#8221; Badech said, adding that &#8220;law enforcement agencies have failed to curb the menace of targeted killing.&#8221;
&#8220;We hold the government and its functionaries responsible for these killings since they have failed to arrest a single suspect behind these killings,&#8221; he said.
Professor Saba Dashtiari was shot dead on Saryab earlier this year, Badech said, adding that other victims include pro-vice chancellor Professor Safdar Kyani, lecturer of media and journalism department Nazima Talib and professor library and sciences department Khurshed Ansar.

Professors, lecturers protest teacher


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## Mumbai Man

TORONTO (CCN)--Fear has silenced the voice of Pakistani Christians since the political murder of Shahbaz Bhatti last spring, said the retired archbishop of Lahore.

&#8220;People are very sad, very bitter. They said, &#8216;If that happens to him what happens to us?&#8217;&#8221; Archbishop Lawrence Saldanha said.

Bhatti&#8217;s killers remain at large. The convicted murderer of former Punjab Province governor Salman Taseer was greeted in court with rose petals and garlands. In an atmosphere of impunity for anyone who kills a Christian, educated Pakistani Christians are getting out of the country. Those who remain are keeping their heads down and their mouths shut, said Archbishop Saldanha.

&#8220;In such a situation, minorities don&#8217;t have much place. There&#8217;s no tolerance for other religions,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Either you convert or you leave. This is the choice.&#8221;

Archbishop Saldanha moved to Toronto in early November, joining his extended family in the city&#8217;s east end, where he hopes to involve himself locally in parish ministry.

Bhatti was Pakistan&#8217;s minister responsible for minorities. He was killed March 2. Taseer was murdered by his own bodyguard Jan. 4. Both men spoke publicly against Pakistan&#8217;s blasphemy laws.

Waves of suicide bombings, targeted killings and death threats against Christians have human rights campaigners and staff for the Pakistan bishops&#8217; justice and peace commission keeping their statements low key and their names out of the papers. Even educated Muslims in Pakistan&#8217;s big cities have turned against the country&#8217;s religious minorities.

&#8220;The mentality is changing, especially among the middle class and lower middle class,&#8221; said Archbishop Saldanha, who headed up the justice and peace commission over the past 10 years. &#8220;They are being Talibanized.&#8221;

For the last year, Lahore&#8217;s Sacred Heart Cathedral has been guarded by three sharpshooters in concrete guard posts erected on either side of the compound entrance and next to the parish hall. Concrete barriers have been placed at the entrance and around the bishop&#8217;s house to slow down drivers and minimize the possibility of a suicide bomber getting close to the church.

But despite the risks Christians face, &#8220;the churches are packed,&#8221; said Archbishop Saldanha.

&#8220;They need to turn to God for any kind of help,&#8221; he said. &#8220;People are very adaptable, very resilient. They accept and go with the flow. They remain happy and active. They come to the church and fill up the church. They feel they get some consolation from that.&#8221;

But if they can get out, Pakistani Christians are heading for Canada, Australia and England, said the archbishop. It&#8217;s left the archdiocese with a shortage of qualified lay people to run schools, hospitals and other institutions. In some cases religious sisters have been able to step in, but in many cases schools lack principals and qualified teachers.

&#8220;We are left with the mass of very poor, uneducated people,&#8221; Archbishop Saldanha said.

There are 1.4 million Catholics and another million Protestants among Pakistan&#8217;s population of 177 million. Officially an Islamic republic since 1956, Pakistan was split from India when they became indepentent from the U.K. in 1947 to provide a homeland for Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. More than 60 years later the country faces enormous challenges, said Archbishop Saldanha.

Archbishop Saldanha was ordained a bishop and took over the archdiocese of Lahore Sept. 11, 2001, the day of the terrorist attacks on the United States.

&#8220;That sort of marked the tone of my episcopal ministry after that,&#8221; said Saldhana.

As a doctoral candidate in systematic theology at the Pontifical Urbaniana University in Rome, Archbishop Saldanha was a first-hand witness to the Second Vatican Council. As a priest in Pakistan he edited a Catholic newspaper, ran Caritas Pakistan, was rector of Christ the King Seminary, established a radio service and headed up the social communications commission for Pakistan&#8217;s bishops.

Over 50 years as a priest, Archbishop Saldanha has seen his country slide from corrupt oligarchy to military rule to mob rule.

&#8220;Everything is a big mess there &#8212; economically, socially, religiously,&#8221; he said.

While in theory democracy should create a better environment for minorities, majority rule in Pakistan right now would be a disaster for the Christians, according to Saldhana.

&#8220;The majority are pro-Islamic and they will vote for strict Islam,&#8221; he said. &#8220;If you have democracy, Islam will surely win, especially in the north.&#8221;

Already at the mercy of trumped up blasphemy charges, Christians under a strict form or sharia law would be practically erased from the public life of the nation, said Archbishop Saldanha.

&#8220;It&#8217;s not really democracy. They have hardly any legislation at all. The president and the prime minister call all the shots, without any reference to parliament.&#8221;

The B.C. Catholic Paper - Christians live in fear in

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 PM ----------

*Regarding Human Rights of Its Minorities, Pakistan is a Failed State*

The country is officially called &#8220;The Islamic Republic of Pakistan.&#8221; It has a population of over 132.35 million, of whom 95% are Muslims and 5% are Christians, Hindus and other minorities. 

It&#8217;s tragic but true that Pakistan today is a prime example of infamous &#8220;Blasphemy Laws&#8221; which have been causing widespread persecution among the minority groups in the name of Islam. The minorities are hostages in the hands of some religious extremists who use the blasphemy laws to settle scores with their rivals or competitors, to take revenge on someone, or to outright grab lands of minorities. 

Many politicians, judges and law enforcement personnel, to keep their positions intact, allow themselves to be used as toys in the hands of the radical Islamists. 

The greatness of a nation is proven by how it treats its own minorities. Pakistan has miserably failed in this respect. An Islamic republic is supposed to follow the real Islam and protect the rights of minorities, but, in reality, Pakistan is failing in this regard.

The western democratic countries, in general, are keeping mum on this matter to receive the support of Pakistan in their fight against terrorism. Their deafening silence is going against the minorities&#8217; rights in Pakistan.


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## sachin@india

DUNYAPUR: A group of miscreants desecrated at least 29 graves belonging to the Ahmadiyya Community in Dunyapur district Lodhran in a late-night raid.
Ahmadiyya Community spokesperson Saleemuddin told The Express Tribune that unknown persons entered the communitys graveyard and broke the plaques (katbe) of a large number of their graves. The miscreants also dug out numerous graves before fleeing the area. Only two graves which were constructed from marble were saved from destruction the spokesperson confirmed.
He said that the local representatives of the community have approached the police and submitted their application for legal action but no investigation has been undertaken so far. He said that police officials asked the community to first rebuild their graves, following which the issue would be investigated.
District Police Office Lodhran Agha Muhammad Yusuf while talking to The Express Tribune confirmed that the graveyard had been desecrated, adding that the Dunyapur DSP had been dispatched to look into the matter. He said that he would personally look into the matter after the investigation.
Dunyapur is a tehsil of district Lodhran located about 100 kilometers away from Multan in South Punjab. There are around 15 families belonging to the Ahmadi community in the area, confirmed the Ahmadiyya community spokesperson. According to his account, six months ago, the people of Dunyapur forced the closure of a private school in the district  a school run by a member of the Ahmadi community. He said that citizens in the area took to the streets and forcibly closed the school in which many Muslim children were receiving their education free of cost.
The community spokesperson called on the government to take action against the culprits, as it was feared that those who could force the closure of schools and desecrate graves may next take over the business and properties of the Ahmadi community in Dunaypur.
The Ahmadi graveyard that was desecrated was established in 1976 at the outskirts of the city, but according to Saleemuddin, the graveyard has been in existence for at least 80 years. He said that incidents of desecrating graves of the Ahmadi community had increased over the last few months. He said that till now, a total of 30 incidents of dug out graves have been recorded in the country.

29 graves of Ahmadi community desecrated &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## Meesna

> 29 graves of Ahmadi community desecrated
> 
> DUNYAPUR: A group of miscreants desecrated at least 29 graves belonging to the Ahmadiyya Community in Dunyapur district Lodhran in a late-night raid.
> 
> Ahmadiyya Community spokesperson Saleemuddin told The Express Tribune that unknown persons entered the community&#8217;s graveyard and broke the plaques (katbe) of a large number of their graves. The miscreants also dug out numerous graves before fleeing the area. Only two graves which were constructed from marble were saved from destruction the spokesperson confirmed.
> 
> He said that the local representatives of the community have approached the police and submitted their application for legal action but no investigation has been undertaken so far. He said that police officials asked the community to first rebuild their graves, following which the issue would be investigated.
> 
> District Police Office Lodhran Agha Muhammad Yusuf while talking to The Express Tribune confirmed that the graveyard had been desecrated, adding that the Dunyapur DSP had been dispatched to look into the matter. He said that he would personally look into the matter after the investigation.
> 
> Dunyapur is a tehsil of district Lodhran located about 100 kilometers away from Multan in South Punjab. There are around 15 families belonging to the Ahmadi community in the area, confirmed the Ahmadiyya community spokesperson. According to his account, six months ago, the people of Dunyapur forced the closure of a private school in the district &#8211; a school run by a member of the Ahmadi community. He said that citizens in the area took to the streets and forcibly closed the school in which many Muslim children were receiving their education free of cost.
> 
> The community spokesperson called on the government to take action against the culprits, as it was feared that those who could force the closure of schools and desecrate graves may next take over the business and properties of the Ahmadi community in Dunaypur.
> 
> The Ahmadi graveyard that was desecrated was established in 1976 at the outskirts of the city, but according to Saleemuddin, the graveyard has been in existence for at least 80 years. He said that incidents of desecrating graves of the Ahmadi community had increased over the last few months. He said that till now, a total of 30 incidents of dug out graves have been recorded in the country.



29 graves of Ahmadi community desecrated &#8211; The Express Tribune

Gets better and better every day. Now even the dead will have to be careful in case they offend anyone. Ordinance XX applied posthumously.

The brutal laws like blasphemy law and Ordinance XX are gradually turning the whole nation in a bunch of barbarians. However now that things have gone so much worst best is to keep these laws and once the Ahmadis and Christians are not in enough numbers then Sunnis and Shias will get on each others throats and then Deobandis and Brelvis too. Problem sorts itself out. End of story. Time to write the history; a nation that destroyed itself over 'blasphemy'.

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## Leader

I think there is some construction issue there... as clearly visible in pictures.

i


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## sachin@india

This is pathetic and disgusting... Mullah didn't spare the dead ones.

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## Cheetah786

Leader said:


> I think there is some construction issue there... as clearly visible in pictures.


 
Please don't make excuses for Some ones disgusting behavior its clearly a graveyard Its wrong what they did and justifying it makes it even more worse.

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## Meesna

Leader said:


> I think there is some construction issue there... as clearly visible in pictures.
> 
> i



Yes deny it as usual. As if it is the first incident ever and that Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus are loved in Pakistan and there are not any banners openly inciting hatred against them. At least Hindus are going over to India to save themselves, good for them.

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## sachin@india

That is why minorities in pakistan looking for asylum in different countries ??


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## Sinnerman108

I think this is the black Magic gang

another episode of the same serial.


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## livingdead

salman108 said:


> I think this is the black Magic gang
> 
> another episode of the same serial.


Tomb raiders in pakistan. Is that the serial name!!!


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## Leader

Cheetah786 said:


> Please don't make excuses for Some ones disgusting behavior its clearly a graveyard Its wrong what they did and justifying it makes it even more worse.





Meesna said:


> Yes deny it as usual. As if it is the first incident ever and that Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus are loved in Pakistan and there are not any banners openly inciting hatred against them. At least Hindus are going over to India to save themselves, good for them.



I just gave a view from the pictures that I saw, I dont need to give excuses for any wrong doing !

surely a minority's protection and welfare should be a priority of a Muslim state.


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## Icarus

Highly condemnable act yet I must stress that taking an isolated incident from the middle of nowhere and blowing it out of proportions is also in bad taste.

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## alimukhtar

So Sad,....... How could Muslims do that.........


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## rohailmalhi

Meesna said:


> Yes deny it as usual. As if it is the first incident ever and that Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus are loved in Pakistan and there are not any banners openly inciting hatred against them. At least Hindus are going over to India to save themselves, good for them.



What is the problem with u guys.Really . U are one of the strongest community in Pakistan and every time i see u ,u are crying on this forum .

Hindus are getting asylum to India so are Ahmaedis Germany and canada are so full of it , today u change ur religion to Ahmediya and u can get geman or canadian nationality with in no time. Oh and i forgot Britian nationailty.

So stop crying and enjoy what ur community have .choti moti baatien hote raheteen hain .

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------




alimukhtar said:


> So Sad,....... How could Muslims do that.........



Exactly No Muslim could do that .................


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## sachin@india

rohailmalhi said:


> What is the problem with u guys.Really . U are one of the strongest community in Pakistan and every time i see u ,u are crying on this forum .
> 
> Hindus are getting asylum to India so are Ahmaedis Germany and canada are so full of it , today u change ur religion to Ahmediya and u can get geman or canadian nationality with in no time. Oh and i forgot Britian nationailty.
> 
> So stop crying and enjoy what ur community have .*choti moti baatien hote raheteen hain* .
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly No Muslim could do that .................



You called it choti moti baatein ?? if someone even say anything about your religion you people get ready to burn the whole world. Shame on you.

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## 53fd

Mods, please move to the right section, thanks:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...l-crimes-mob-vigilante-justice-thread-35.html


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## StandForInsaf

GVT should provide protection to minorities and terrorists involved attacks should be in jail.

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## 53fd

Already posted:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...01-29-graves-ahmadi-community-desecrated.html

Why are you trolling & spamming?


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## untitled

self delete

face palmed


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## sachin@india

bilalhaider said:


> Already posted:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...01-29-graves-ahmadi-community-desecrated.html
> 
> Why are you trolling & spamming?



 I have posted first... meensa posted later. Just check out the time before making allegations 

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------




pdf_shurtah said:


> In fact sachin@india was the first to thank the OP in the above thread



I thanked him because of the message he had posted along with the article

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## untitled

self delete


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## sachin@india

pdf_shurtah said:


> The difference is of 7 minutes. Since you are Indian you are still guilty


 


@bilal..now please post the same message to your fellow countryman

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## JonAsad

Bloody free indians should get a life for a change-

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## 53fd

I already did post there, but now the thread is closed.


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## CrazyTycoon

It's sad how Ahamdi's are persecuted in Pakistan, home of the largest Ahmadiyya community. People in Pakistan have forgotten about the Pakistan that Muhammad Jinnah envisioned mainly thanks to extremist Mullahs, dictator Zia-ul-Haq and corrupt politicians.

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## ThePakistanPrince

Good, these are not Muslims but corrupted individuals who should either be converted or killed. Pakistan is an Islamic state, regardless of what Jinnah wanted or imagined.


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## ThePakistanPrince

And? He lived in an Islamic state and he tried to rail against it and died. Either the Christians should wake up and realize that they are in a Muslim country, not in a Christian one. Maybe they need to leave.

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## rohailmalhi

Love to see the obsession of indians...........................................................

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## pak-marine

What kind of disgusting mofcks would do such thing to graves .... these scum of the earth should be caught and burned alive , i wonder why ahmediyas are sitting back and not taking action them selves !? they should arm themselves and fck these people up

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## mr42O

Look in Mumbai first were muslims can buy house.

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## pak-marine

yep taliban seems to have started a further purifying campaign , desecrating ahmedi graves , killing christians ... genocide of shias BUT that wont have an effect ... the majority will start worrying when these talibani fundos will start slaughtering the majority of this country the soft targets would have been dealth with and taken care of by then.

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## ThePakistanPrince

pak-marine said:


> What kind of disgusting mofcks would do such thing to graves .... these scum of the earth should be caught and burned alive , i wonder why ahmediyas are sitting back and not taking action them selves !? they should arm themselves and fck these people up



Once the Ahmedis take up arms will be the last day that there will be any Ahmedhi's in Pakistan.


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## CrazyTycoon

ThePakistanPrince said:


> And? He lived in an Islamic state and he tried to rail against it and died. Either the Christians should wake up and realize that they are in a Muslim country, not in a Christian one. Maybe they need to leave.



Wow, if this is the attitude of the majority of Pakistanis, then we deserve these Zardaris, Sharifs, Altafs and last but not least, dictators ala Zia. You are right though, not only Christians but all non-muslims have less rights than muslims in Pakistan and are treated as such.

And lol at your last comment. No Christians don't need to leave, the Taliban and other extremist organisations need to be exterminated and equal rights given to non-muslims. 

However I wonder how this is possible in Pakistan where you have Zia-ul-Haqs strolling down every corner.


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## ThePakistanPrince

CrazyTycoon said:


> Wow, if this is the attitude of the majority of Pakistanis, then we deserve these Zardaris, Sharifs, Altafs and last but not least, dictators ala Zia. You are right though, not only Christians but all non-muslims have less rights than muslims in Pakistan and are treated as such.
> 
> And lol at your last comment. No Christians don't need to leave, the Taliban and other extremist organisations need to be exterminated and equal rights given to non-muslims.



No they have equal rights as long as they follow Islamic law.


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## pak-marine

ThePakistanPrince said:


> Once the Ahmedis take up arms will be the last day that there will be any Ahmedhi's in Pakistan.



Better to die with dignity .. what life is this .. living in fear of some scum will kill them.


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## CrazyTycoon

ThePakistanPrince said:


> Once the Ahmedis take up arms will be the last day that there will be any Ahmedhi's in Pakistan.



Ahmadis have survived and are going strong in Pakistan despite the intense persecution. And many Pakistanis like me are proud of their contributions to society and their patriotism (despite the persecution). Ahamadis themselves provided funds for the rise of the state of Pakistan before it was even born. 

Having said that, I won't be surprised if you're an Indian troll (no offence to any Indians here).


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## CrazyTycoon

ThePakistanPrince said:


> No they have equal rights as long as they follow Islamic law.



How can they have equal rights if they can't raise their voice? Does freedom of speech not count anymore? 

Then again, I'm arguing with a fool who think all Ahmadis should have been killed.


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## ThePakistanPrince

CrazyTycoon said:


> How can they have equal rights if they can't raise their voice? Does freedom of speech not count anymore?
> 
> Then again, I'm arguing with a fool who think all Ahmadis should have been killed.



Please quote me the section in the constitution where there is a guarantee of free speech?


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## Irfan Baloch

sachin@india said:


> I have posted first... meensa posted later. Just check out the time before making allegations
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> I thanked him because of the message he had posted along with the article



its no reason to make fun of this

by the way a sticky is made for such stories , check before creating new threads

moving it there

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## Meesna

Same old same old, first hatred is incited and then events like these occur.


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## Meesna

ThePakistanPrince said:


> Good, these are not Muslims but corrupted *individuals who should either be converted or killed*. Pakistan is an Islamic state, regardless of what Jinnah wanted or imagined.



Glad forum is living up to the reputation of its country. Is incitement to murder legal in the country this forum is hosted? If not someone can get into trouble for allowing it here.


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## Meesna

Anti-Ahmadiyya graffiti in Dunyapur






Khatm-e-Nabuwat terrorists at it again.


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## JonAsad

Meesna said:


> Anti-Ahmadiyya graffiti in Dunyapur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Khatm-e-Nabuwat terrorists at it again.



The writing asks for the boycott- not kill- 
and rightly declared you as Kafir"-

Perhaps you should look into the definition of terrorists again-

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## Meesna

JonAsad said:


> The writing asks for the boycott- not kill-
> and rightly declared you as Kafir"-
> 
> Perhaps you should look into the definition of terrorists again-


 
When they want anyone get killed they declare them anti-Islam, blasphemers, an insult to the prophet etc etc and the masses get the idea. Plus the real beef comes in the mulla speeches which accompany such movement. Not that it&#8217;s the first time anything like this happened from Khatm-e-Nabuwat. Pretty normal. They are a terrorist organisation all right. Nothing good has every come off them except hate resulting in deaths, attacks on properties and otherwise persecution. Religion of peace indeed.

Keep giving excuses to the terrorists.

Mullah speeches spreading love;






Perhaps you should reconsider supporting these khamt-e-nabuwat terrorists.


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## Respect4Respect01

everybody is afraid of taliban,

Those Christians are Pakistanis too anyway? then what is the point of this stupid thread?

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## Safriz

My class fellows were Christians when i was in school and they weren't discriminated..and that was a government school not private,and where boys from middle/lower classes study..and that was in 80s when Pakistan was much more religious than it is now...
I cannot believe that now when Pakistan is far less religious and every house has dozens of foreign TV channels unlike before when we only had one....and people know all sorts about other religions and cultures..Now local Christians cannot be discriminated..it cannot happen..
Must be ulterior motive behind the complaint in the news report.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 PM ----------

and on cannot stop somebody from being afraid of Non existent things...this is called Paranoia..If somebody is paranoid about non-existing talibans they need to go to psychiatrist.


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## patna_ke_presley

safriz said:


> My class fellows were Christians when i was in school and they weren't discriminated..and that was a government school not private,and where boys from middle/lower classes study..and that was in 80s when Pakistan was much more religious than it is now...
> I cannot believe that now when Pakistan is far less religious and every house has dozens of foreign TV channels unlike before when we only had one....and people know all sorts about other religions and cultures..Now local Christians cannot be discriminated..it cannot happen..
> Must be ulterior motive behind the complaint in the news report.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 PM ----------
> 
> and on cannot stop somebody from being afraid of Non existent things...this is called Paranoia..If somebody is paranoid about non-existing talibans they need to go to psychiatrist.



I read about the recent incident where a Christian girl wrote wrong spelling of "Naat" in school assignment. And because of that she was expelled from this school and her nurse mother was transferred to Abottabad. Really, don't you think this is discrimination. Is writing wrong spelling enough crime to expel her from School.

And in other incident a teacher beat a Christian student when he said,"He is proud to be a Pakistan and proud to be Christian." I can't get what crime he did so that he deserved to be beaten.


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## Areesh

pak-marine said:


> yep taliban seems to have started a further purifying campaign , desecrating ahmedi graves , killing christians ... genocide of shias BUT that wont have an effect ... the majority will start worrying when these talibani fundos will start slaughtering the majority of this country the soft targets would have been dealth with and taken care of by then.


 
Or even better if the "liberals" like you can get a life and get off the high horse of paranoia and self criticism things might get better. I can guarantee you that.


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## Sinnerman108

^^^

Qadyani are burried in rabwah right ?

Rabwah is a qadyani holy place right ?

Rabwah is dominated by qadyani right, there are no muslims there.

Qadyani buried there, goes go heaven , right ?

So, they can't even look after their graveyard ?


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## Ombiaz

> And? He lived in an Islamic state and he tried to rail against it and died. Either the Christians should wake up and realize that they are in a Muslim country, not in a Christian one. Maybe they need to leave.



You my friend are quite a horrible example of what a Pakistani citizen should be. Maybe it is YOU who should leave! 



> No they have equal rights as long as they follow Islamic law.



Equal right!?! You call making them live in constant fear equal right!?! 

Islamic law teaches tolerance towards people of other faiths. 

If you don't like Christians, Hindus, Jews or any other faith just because you think they said something absurd about Islam then you are a bad example of a Muslim. So what if somebody bad mouthed or insulted Islam or Muslims? That does not mean we should drop down to their levels and bad mouthing them. Idiotic comments and behavior is only going to reinforce their views.

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## ThePakistanPrince

They are in a Muslim community, they either should live like Muslims do and do not try to make their own path. If they do they should be kicked out of the country and if they insult our holy Prophet (PBUH) with nonsense they should be tried to the full extent of the Blasphemy law.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ThePakistanPrince said:


> They are in a Muslim community, they either should live like Muslims do and do not try to make their own path. If they do they should be kicked out of the country and if they insult our holy Prophet (PBUH) with nonsense they should be tried to the full extent of the Blasphemy law.



why should they be kicked out of the country?

that would be treason

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## 53fd

It is a shame that the Ahmadis are discriminated & treated poorly as compared to other minorities in Pakistan. They are loyal, patriotic citizens who deserve the same rights as every Pakistani does, regardless of religion. They deserve the full protection of their life, their property, their holy places, & everything else like every other Pakistani minority does, yet we don't see that happening, sadly. But reveling in other people's pain is in bad taste as well.


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## Adnan Faruqi

*UN intervention demanded to end genocide of Pakistani Christian. Human Righ*

Washington DC: December 9, 2011. (PCP) Dr. Nazir S Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress PCC appealed Mr. Ban-Ki Moon, Secretary General of United Nations to constitute a Commission to investigate genocide of 20 million Pakistani Christians and to award them Refugee Status for safety of life and property in which government of Islamic Republic of Pakistan is failed. 

He expressed his grave concerns on misuse of blasphemy law against religious minorities in Pakistan and enforced conversion of Christian women in a message on International Human Rights Day organized by R.E.A.L in National Press Club at Washington DC, on December 8, 2011.

The full contents of Message by Dr. Nazir S Bhatti,

I congratulate, Mr. Jeffrey Imm, Chief Coordinator of Responsible for Equality And Liberty (R.E.A.L.) for organizing this event as commitment to Declaration of Universal Human Rights of United Nation. It is important to pay homage to REAL leadership for commitment and re-commitment of Human Rights Day every year in DC when many champions of Human Rights not even bother to raise voice for persecuted communities on this day.

Availing opportunity of this occasion on Human Rights Day, I must submit that 20 million Pakistani Christians are a forgotten community by the International forums and Human Right organizations. There are incidents of gang-rape, abduction and enforced conversion to Islam of Christian women but silence prevails in capitals of Western governments. The Pastors are gunned down, Churches are attacked, Christian properties are set on fire, worshipers in churches are sprayed with bullets and Christian women and children are burnt alive but culprits walk free from courts if they are arrested. There are arrests of Christians under controversial blasphemy law to settle scores by Muslim majority but Human Right champions have never dared to press upon government of Islamic Republic of Pakistan to repeal such black laws which are contradictory to Universal Human Rights of UN, of which Pakistan is a signatory state. There are frequent incidents of murder of Christian victims of blasphemy law in custody of law enforcement agencies and by hands of Islamic extremist elements but none of culprit is ever arrested and brought to justice. The Christian youth is denied equal opportunities in education and employment to undermine their due rights and even in share of US AID on such programs in Pakistan.

It will be surprising to note that Islamic Republic of Pakistan claims to be a Democratic state but 20 million Pakistani Christians are deprived of their basic right to elect their representation by their vote in Pakistan. We are forced to vote for a Muslim and then that Muslim selects our member in Parliament but Western Democratic countries have never linked their AID to Pakistan for true democracy. Pakistani Christians have long standing demand of representation in National Assembly of Pakistan, Senate of Pakistan; Provincial Assemblies of Pakistan and Local Bodies with proportional to their population which is 13% but never received due consideration.

I must submit that there have been more than 1,500 cases registered under blasphemy law in Pakistan since 1986, in which Christians, Ahmadi, Hindu and individuals of some Muslim sects were arrested. The Christian and Ahmadi victims of blasphemy law were killed by the hands of extremists Islamic elements in which none was arrested to ensure justice.

On occasion of Human Right Day, I will urge government of Pakistan to repeal blasphemy law and demand formation of Judicial Commission to investigate and to arrest killers of Shahbaz Bhatti, Federal Minister for Minorities who was assassinated on March 2, 2011, in Islamabad; The Tehreek-e-Taliban Punjab TTP accepted responsibility of killing of Shahbaz Bhatti but Joint Investigation Committee comprising of Islamabad Police and some Christian leaders have failed to make any arrest. I will also demand release of Asia Bibi, a Christian mother of 5, who was sentenced to death on accusation of blasphemy and waiting in jail for his appeal pending in Lahore High Court. Pakistan Christian Congress PCC demands release of more than 100 victims of blasphemy in jails and adequate security for those who have been acquitted from courts and forced to live in hidings.

It is also important to bring in notice of United Nation that Pakistani Christians are facing genocide in Islamic Republic of Pakistan and immediate action is required to safe 20 million Pakistani Christians by awarding Refugee Status for their safety and security of life and property.

I, President of Pakistan Christian congress PCC, Nazir S. Bhatti, on behalf of 20 million Pakistani Christians demand, His Excellency Ban-Ki Moon, Secretary General UN, on Human Right Day of 2011, to form a Commission to investigate genocide of Pakistani Christians under following Universal Conditions for Genocide.

1. Public display of ethnic and religious differences through physical features, language and communal symbols.

2. Absence in multi-religious and/or multi-ethnic societies of strong integrating institutions.

3. Absence of the rule of law and presence of authoritarian traditions of governance.

4. Deep-seated insecurity on the part of ruling elites.

5. Widespread perception of vulnerable religious and ethnic groups as potential agents of politically subversive powers.

6. Prevalence of a racially or religiously discriminatory ideology or worldview that upholds a utopian vision of a homogenous society as the foundation of political unity.

7. Institutionalization of racial or religious discrimination in statute law or social custom.

8. Widespread communication by state and/or non-state actors of hateful propaganda that portrays members of religious or ethnic communities as subject peoples, aliens within society, or as subhuman creatures.

9. Outbreaks of organized violence by mobs or individuals against members of vulnerable religious or ethnic communities.

10. Habitual denial of discrimination by state and non-state actors that engage in oppressive practices, including violence, against vulnerable groups in society.

11. Widespread militarization of society and/or widespread influence of non-state terrorist groups or militias.

We hope that formation of UN Commission on genocide of Pakistani Christians will be revival of Declaration of International Human Rights in Pakistan and around globe.

Pakistan Christian Post


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## FC 20

The writer of the the article did'nt provide any evidence of cristians being tortured or their place of worship being attacked still all of u are believing in the article all of this is just to create a negative image of pakistan. if sum incident happens in sum tribal area it is thought that the whole of pakistan is 'talibanized".i myself know many ppl from minority groups of pakistan and have never seen anybody being discriminated just bc of their religon.the taliban attack mosques not churches and thousands of muslims have been killed in their attacks,not minorities.


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## lem34

I would say that some muslims live in fear in america

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## kingkobra

Aryan_B said:


> I would say that some muslims live in fear in america



they can go back to their perfect islamic countries


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## lem34

In fact muslims live in fear all over the world at american christian armies excesses.


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## untitled

Aryan_B said:


> I would say that some muslims live in fear in america



Muslims outside Amreeka too

---------- Post added at 06:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 AM ----------




kingkobra said:


> they can go back to their perfect islamic countries




They would love too once the medalling is stop


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## sachin@india

Aryan_B said:


> I would say that some muslims live in fear in america



yaa how many muslims got killed in US as compared to Pakistan, egypt, syria, behrain ??


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## kingkobra

pdf_shurtah said:


> Muslims outside Areeka too
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They would love too once the medalling is stop



muslim invaders have done this for thousands of years with other countries...Muslims should be last people on earth to complain about this...

What goes around comes around..


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## untitled

kingkobra said:


> muslim invaders have done this for *thousands* of years with other countries.



Islam as we know now came in to being only 1500 years ago


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## kingkobra

pdf_shurtah said:


> Islam as we know now came in to being only 1500 years ago



thousand comes into thousands dude  don't you know that??


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## untitled

kingkobra said:


> thousand comes into thousands dude  don't you know that??



But *single* does not come in to *many*


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## kingkobra

pdf_shurtah said:


> But single does not come in to many


hehe...ok i should have said hundreds 
silly me...
but it is true...muslims are last people on earth to complain about this..

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## untitled

kingkobra said:


> hehe...ok i should have said hundreds
> silly me...
> but it is true...muslims are last people on earth to complain about this..



According to that logic same could be said about Christians


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## lem34

kingkobra said:


> muslim invaders have done this for thousands of years with other countries...Muslims should be last people on earth to complain about this...
> 
> What goes around comes around..



You have no room to talk in your supposed secular state:



Dalit Christians live in fear - YouTube

In the eastern Indian state of Orissa, thousands of Dalit Christians are living in camps after deadly attacks by Brahmin fanatics, forced them to leave their homes

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## Bratva

PESHAWAR/KARAK: Alamzeb Khattak, 25, a brother of Uzma Ayub, the teenage pregnant rape victim, was shot dead on Friday at 1:30pm, allegedly by three persons, an eyewitness said.

Ibrahim, son of Jehan Shah, a brother of ASI Hakeem Khan, along with his driver Pir Abdul Waheed, was named by Zafranullah, a brother of the deceased, who saw the killing on the Takht Nusrati court premises.

Police sources said the three police officials, including Inspector Peer Mohsin Shah, Sub-Inspector Ameer Muhammad and Assistant Sub-Inspector Hakeem Khan and another accused Qamar Ali, allegedly involved in the rape of Uzma Ayub, were produced before the court of civil judge Takht Nusrati Asif Iqbal and their plea of bails were cancelled by the court, and they were sent to prison.

The killing took place days after the victim, Uzma Ayub, had rejected an out-of-court deal offered by the accused police officers. On December 6, she had claimed that about 30-40 elders from ASI Hakeem Khans area Gudikhel, including MPA Shah Abdul Aziz, had come to her house on November 2 and told her brother Alamzeb that Hakeem Khan, Pir Mohsin Shah and Ameer Khan had confessed of their crime before them and were ready to accept the aggrieved familys demands.

Uzmas brother was coming out of the court after the hearing when the said armed assailants opened indiscriminate fire, killing him on the spot. He added that about 5-6 police officials were present at the gate, but nobody stopped the killers, who escaped safely.

The killing raised serious questions about the security provided to the young rape victim and her family, specially after three police officials were arrested for the crime. The daylight murder also confirmed fears raised by numerous human rights organisations about Uzmas safety.

Her brother Alamzeb told The News: I and my mother Bilqees Begum had left for the court in the morning and when we reached there, we found about 50 persons present on the premises of the court as supporters of Hakeem Khan from Gudikkhel area and protesting against the hearing afterwards.

Zafranullah said that after coming out of the court, Alamzeb asked him to take their mother home and that he would tell him about the hearing later. When Alamzeb was about to ride his motorbike, a car hit him and Alamzeb tried to run away, but Pir Abdul Waheed, the driver, held him and Ibrahim, the brother of Hakeem Khan, shot him on his head and chest. Alamzeb was sprayed with five bullets.

Uzmas family sources said the car that hit Alamzeb was slate coloured with No899, and DPO Sajid Mohmand had provided it to ASI Hakeem Khan, who is now in jail.

When contacted, Uzma Ayub said that while leaving for the court in the morning, her brother had talked to him for the last time, saying that he was going to collect all the required documents and soon they would shift to Peshawar and would also transfer their case to the Peshawar High Court.

She said that her family had dropped her at her elder sisters house and she had packed her luggage for shifting to Peshawar. She further said that three days back, her family had received threatening messages from Hakeem Khan, saying: I am anyway in jail, but soon Bilqees Begum (Uzmas mother) will receive a gift from me.

Uzma Ayub said that she had learnt from a relative that while Alamzeb was in hospital, some of Hakeems accomplices had asked about her as they also wanted to kill her.

She said despite the threats, she had not been provided with any kind of security from the police department or from the provincial government.

When The News reporter Nasir Iqbal Khattak contacted the district police officer (DPO) Sajid Ahmad Khan Mohmand for comments, he said that he was in a meeting at Kohat. When he was informed about the incident, he claimed that the Alamzeb family had many enemies; therefore, it would be premature to say who was involved in thekilling. The DPO said the police were investigating the case from different angles to ascertain the truth and reach the real culprits.

When he was told that a few weeks ago, the slain Alamzeb had expressed fears that Taliban had given threats to his family to go for abortion or face the consequences, the DPO said that they had thoroughly investigated the threats, but there was no reality in Alamzebs claim. He added that they would see the statements of the relatives of Alamzeb and after the nomination of the accused in the FIR, they would act accordingly.

Meanwhile, Ansar Burney, the head of the Ansar Burney Trust, condemned the killing of Alamzeb and said that the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa government had totally failed to protect the lives of a victim already suffering the consequences of a terrible crime. He said that he had warned the government earlier to provide security to the victim family, but it did not bother to do so.

Ansar Burney said that the incident was an outcome of negligence on the part of the government as well as the police department. He said as he had announced to take responsibility of Uzma and his child, so the time has now come to take the step. He further said that the killing of the innocent young brother, fighting for justice for his sister, depicts the ugly side of the police department.

The Asian Human Rights Commission and members of the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa civil society organisations, including Blue Veins, Women Action Forum, Shirkatgah, Aurat Foundation, Sparc, CRSD and SRD, have strongly condemned the brutal killing in front of a court and in the presence of police in large numbers.

These organisations announced to hold a countrywide protest, admitting that it was their defeat that they could not understand the gravity of the situation and were taking things lightly, but now it was the time to fight against the system. The human rights activists urged the government to arrest the killers of Alamzeb as soon as possible.

Rape victim

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## KS

Looks like they have to settle it the old fashioned way.


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## Bratva

*The Story of Uzma Ayub.*

*Wednesday, October 05, 2011*

PESHAWAR: A teenage girl, kidnapped one year ago, held captive and repeatedly raped by several persons, including policemen, has miraculously escaped from her captors while being six months pregnant and has now vowed to seek justice, desperately, come what may.

Uzma, the teenager who will soon be a single mother, has gathered the strength and determination to take the known culprits to justice, says she would go to any length, like Mukhtaran Mai who became an icon and inspiration for all violated women in Pakistan.

Parents of the victim, Uzma, 16, daughter of Mohammad Ayub, a resident of Marwataan Banda, Tehsil Takht-e-Nasrati of the Karak district, who dodged her kidnappers and rapists on Sept 19 while being shifted in a car to DI Khan from Bannu, had lodged an FIR soon after she went missing in October last year.

She narrated the escape to The News saying two kidnappers who were taking her in a car stopped over in a crowded place and she jumped out and escaped. Then she called her brother from a public phone and managed to dodge the two.

When she was kidnapped, local police had failed to recover her. Later, her parents moved the Peshawar High Court (PHC) that summoned the police officials and ordered them to recover the girl at the earliest. Sources said the affected girl under Section 164 of the Criminal Procedure Code recorded her statement in the case FIR No: 363 registered on October 9, 2010 under Section 496 of the Pakistan Penal Code at the Takht-e-Nasrati Police Station. 

She had stated in her report: &#8220;Police raided our home to arrest my brother over a petty dispute with our neighbour and picked me up and handed me over to Gul Marjan, Sardar Ali Khan, Nazar Khan, Qamar Ali alias Guley. These people kept me at their house, where Mst Guleena and Shakeel came and spent some time with me. Then came Dr Iqbal in the room. He administered me an injection and I fell unconscious. When I regained my senses, I noticed that I had been shifted to another location. I did not know anybody there. After some time, Qamar Ali alias Guley and Karim visited me.&#8221;

In the statement she alleged: &#8220;In that house Naseebullah, a brother of Guley, visited me and forced me to marry him. Same night Naseebullah&#8217;s son visited me and raped me. Qamar Ali Khan, Karim and Alam also raped me. Two police officials, one named Hakim, used to frequently visit me to satisfy their lust. I don&#8217;t know the name of the other cop but can recognise him if he is produced before me.&#8221;

The wronged girl said: &#8220;All the people mentioned are involved in my abduction and molestation. I charged these persons with ruining my life and making me pregnant. In the house when I was drugged and raped second time, the people over there told me that I had been sold to them and they were taking me to Dera Ismail Khan and when they stopped at Bannu, I escaped from their captivity and now am here before you.&#8221;

Bilqees Begum, mother of Uzma, told The News, &#8220;Police is supposed to provide protection to the people but if they themselves become beasts, who will trust them?&#8221;

The News learnt that a lady doctor Zakia conducted the medical examination of the girl and declared that she was six months pregnant. It was also learnt that none of the lawyers in the area was ready to plead her case. Some of media men allegedly demanded a huge amount from the affected family members when they requested them to highlight the case as the accused, including cops, were influential.

When contacted by The News, Uzma said though she knew that girls like her had never got justice in Pakistan, yet she would not give up, adding she would demand justice from the Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, President Asif Ali Zardari, Premier Yusuf Raza Gilani and the human rights organisations and would ask one question from all of them: What would they do had their daughter been in the place where I am standing today? I only expect that treatment from them as their daughters would have got.&#8221;

On April 5, 2011, a two-member bench comprising Justice Dost Muhammad Khan and Justice Yahya Afridi had directed the district police officer to trace the kidnapped girl when the girl&#8217;s mother had alleged that her daughter, then a student of 9th grade, had been kidnapped by police officials including SHO Pir Mohsin Shah, Sub-Inspector Hakeem Khan and Amir Muhammad during an illegal raid on her house. She had sent an application to Chief Justice of the PHC Ejaz Afzal Khan who had later converted it into a writ petition.

The Karak DPO, Sajid Khan Mohmand, had appeared before the court and contended that on the complaint of the female, the police had registered an FIR at the Takht-e-Nasrati Police Station in Karak. Police had raided several places but could not recover the girl. He had added that four persons earlier charged by the complainant had been granted bail by a local court.

A brother of the alleged kidnapped girl, Alamzeb Khan, had told the court that the family had learnt that his sister had been taken to Quetta by an army man, Naseebullah Khan. He stated that although the family had named him but the local police did not arrest him. He had stated that the local police had also implicated him in different cases. The DPO had stated that the complainant had not charged the said person in the initial statement.

The PHC chief justice on April 06, this year had directed the Karak DPO to contact the station commander of the Pakistan Army in Quetta for searching the teenaged girl who according to her family members was illegally being held by a serving soldier after her alleged abduction by the local policemen.

Alamzeb Khan, brother of the kidnapped girl, informed the court that his family had received information from reliable sources that his sister was in illegal detention of the main accused Nasibullah, who was an army man and currently serving in Quetta. 

The bench had directed the Karak DPO to record supplementary statement of the girl&#8217;s brother against Nasibullah in the case. The bench also directed him to send a senior police officer to Quetta to discuss the girl&#8217;s abduction with the station commander, seek her recovery and pursue abduction charges against the soldier. He later fixed April 21 for the next hearing into the case.

Bilqees had told the court that she was at home when SHO Pir Mohsin Shah, Sub-Inspector Hakeem Khan and additional SHO Amir Muhammad raided her residence unaccompanied by any lady constable. She alleged that the cops also took away some cash and gold ornaments from her house.

On April 22, the PHC directed the police officials in Karak to recover the kidnapped girl by May 11 or face suspension from service

Pregnant rape victim dodges kidnappers and escapes


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## Leader

oh well thats not an issue, Veena malik's nude oh sorry topless photos are !!

our whole honour comes down to Veena malik, not to the poor rape victim or her brother !!


FTW man !!

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## AUz

Just sad.

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## Safriz

OP good job...
at least i didnt know of this incident....
some parts of pakistan are still gripped in medeival times and these incidents are just shameful.
brave girl i say...hope she gets justice.

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## nomi007

very sad out side the court
where is the independent jury


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## Karachiite

RIP to the innocent girl. 

Hope justice is served but knowing it's Pakistan and to make matters worse its KPK I highly doubt it. Hope this region enters the 20th century soon.


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## JonAsad

i felt sad for the poor girl-


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## Birbal

I hope those bastards face justice.


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## Bratva

Simple is that, the accused persons have influential contacts with in provincial government, that's what delaying the justice and then people ask what made tehrik e taliban rise so quickly in KPK


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## livingdead

She is a brave girl. I hope she will get the justice.


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## Patriot

NANKANA: *A poor barber, who was the eyewitness of his wife's rape is reported to have suffered severe burns after the influential rapist poured acid in his eyes in Nankana Sahib, Geo News reported.*

The fifty-year-old barber is being treated for acid burns in the District Headquarter Hospital.

*Details have it that the Barber Ibrahim caught Bilawal Shah village Chaudhrys son teasing his (Ibrahim's) wife and beat. Upon which, Chaudhry's son fled the scene vowing revenge.*

*After sometime the Chaudrys kidnapped Ibrahim and beat him. Chaudhrys also poured acid in his eyes.*

*Barely able to talk, beaten and acid-burnt, Ibrahim was taken to local DHQ where he was not even able to tell what he had been through.*

*No one is ready to testify against the culprits.*

Police say it was a very cruel thing to do with anyone and they are digging into the matter.


Chaudhry burns barber
No justice for the poor


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## Frankenstein

Sunny Singh said:


> This is heart wrecking news,I expect the views of more pak members on this matter.



first part of your post was enough I think

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

I hope justice prevail


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## Devil Soul

Above 50 chained children recovered from a Sohrab Goth seminary......

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## Devil Soul

*More than 50 chained children recovered from Khi seminary*
Updated 5 minutes ago


KARACHI: Gadap police on late Monday night recovered more than 50 children, chained in a seminary of Sohrab Goth, Geo News reported.

According to details, police conducted a raid at a seminary in Sohrab Goth and recovered more than 50 chained children. All the children hail from the outskirts of Peshawar.

Police sources informed that the children were kept at underground dungeon. 

SP Gadap, Rao Anwar said majority of the children belong to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

Security agencies have arrested Mulana Usman who says that he is from Badgaram.....
all 50 kids were chained & the keys were found with this Qari Usman.....


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## Sugarcane

Salay ku ulta latako and ask these kids to piss on him in chain and then start his trial for legal punishment


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## Devil Soul

SSP Malir Rao Anwar got an intel about this Madrasa & raided the Madrasa...... Good Going SSP


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## Karachiite

Mulana Usman


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## Sinnerman108

Devil Soul said:


> *More than 50 chained children recovered from Khi seminary*
> Updated 5 minutes ago
> 
> 
> KARACHI: Gadap police on late Monday night recovered more than 50 children, chained in a seminary of Sohrab Goth, Geo News reported.
> 
> According to details, police conducted a raid at a seminary in Sohrab Goth and recovered more than 50 chained children. All the children hail from the outskirts of Peshawar.
> 
> Police sources informed that the children were kept at underground dungeon.
> 
> SP Gadap, Rao Anwar said majority of the children belong to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------
> 
> Security agencies have arrested Mulana Usman who says that he is from Badgaram.....
> all 50 kids were chained & the keys were found with this Qari Usman.....



Oh Dear God NO !

I am just so hoping this is not true.


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## Devil Soul

salman108 said:


> Oh Dear God NO !
> 
> I am just so hoping this is not true.



Well its true bro... am watching it live on TV


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## Leader

sickening and disgusting !!!


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## notsuperstitious

Glad the kids are freed. But why were chained in the first place? Its a seminary right?


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## Devil Soul

Mufti Dawod is the main culprit who escaped, as per arrested Qari Usman the madrasa belonged to this so called Mufti Dawod... Police is looking for him....

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## Doctor09

*Sick animals *

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## DESERT FIGHTER

fateh71 said:


> Glad the kids are freed. But why were chained in the first place? Its a seminary right?



The guy they caught guarding the place claims its some sort of a madrassa where people send their addict children to rehabilitate..


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## innocent_devil79

How can someone do things like these, i cant even imagine it, May he be Draged to Hell as soon as possible, 
and some of the kids were from Peshawar, one was from my hometown


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## slapshot

Well from the media reports it seems like it was some sort of DESI rehabilitation center. Seems like molana will be in trouble cause few students accused that they were teaching them to be talban.


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## notsuperstitious

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The guy they caught guarding the place claims its some sort of a madrassa where people send their addict children to rehabilitate..


 
A recently caught mercenary from J&K has said he was a drug addict in karachi and he was delivered to some charity by his brother. They trained him and sent him over to J&K to become an unnamed grave.

I'm glad these 50 kids were saved.

J&K Terrorist

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## Splurgenxs

> A recently caught mercenary from J&K has said he was a drug addict in karachi and he was delivered to some charity by his brother. They trained him and sent him over to J&K to become an unnamed grave.
> 
> I'm glad these 50 kids were saved.
> 
> J&K Terrorist



i think the children were undergoing some mental breaking ritual...
most probably softening up for further brain washing..

Well good tht at least Pakistani police has started working ..and the children are safe.


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## Major Sam

wat the hell man


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## W.11

fateh71 said:


> A recently caught mercenary from J&K has said he was a drug addict in karachi and he was delivered to some charity by his brother. They trained him and sent him over to J&K to become an unnamed grave.
> 
> I'm glad these 50 kids were saved.
> 
> J&K Terrorist





taking advantage of the news, this is we call perfect trolling


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## Devil Soul

*At least 40 shackled people rescued from Karachi seminary*
By Noman Ahmed
Published: December 13, 2011

At least 45 people, including children, were rescued from the seminary.
KARACHI: Police rescued around 40 people shackled in the basement of a seminary in the Afghan Camp area near Sohrab Goth late on Monday. Seminary&#8217;s administrator Mufti Dawood was absconding. 
Talking to The Express Tribune, Gadap Town Superintendent of Police (SP) Rao Anwar said, &#8220;The recovered people are aged between 12 to 50 years and were mainly of Pashtun ethnicity.&#8221;
Anwar added that those who were kept in the basement were students who were tortured by the administration.
&#8220;A few drug addicts and mentally challenged persons were also among those who were recovered,&#8221; said Anwar.
&#8220;It seems that the seminary was running as a religious school and &#8216;rehabilitation center&#8217; and were receiving considerable sums of money from their parents,&#8221; added SP Anwar.
According to the police, the administrator of the seminary Mufti Dawood escaped during the raid; however the police apprehended one of the instructors Qari Muhammad Usman along with two watchmen from the site.
&#8220;Usman is a resident of Battagram District in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province and arrived in Karachi barely two months back. We recovered a bunch of keys from his possession that include those of the basement,&#8221; said Anwar.
Talking to reporters, a blindfolded Qari Usman denied torturing the students or having any knowledge about it. He said only the Mufti knew why those people were kept in captivity, adding that parents voluntarily had left their children and relatives here to rid them of evil spirits.
One of those rescued said that their captors used to lash them and not provide sufficient rations or time to sleep. He said that their captors were training to send them to Afghanistan for jihad.
The SP said that the recovered would be handed over to their parents after completing investigations and legal formalities.
According to reports, the registered seminary, located adjacent to the Zakariya mosque, was established seven years back.


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## Desert Fox

People like this mulana disgust me, this guy should be chained to a toilet that will back up sewage any minute, for the rest of his life.

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## Evil Flare




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## ARSENAL6

If this is true.....

I can't believe that idiot has done.
His backward thinking and stupitidy had made non-Muslims to be critical of Allah(swt), Prophet Mohammid(pbuh), the Noble Quran, Muslims, Islam, ARabs, Pakistanis, Iranians etc...

I wonder if he is one of those Zionist puppet aswell even if he was a Muslim.


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## ameer219

*Fourteen-year jail term for acid-throwers:Women-specific bills passed*

*ISLAMABAD: Acid victims sitting in the gallery of the upper house witnessed the landmark Senate proceedings in awe.*

*The Senate unanimously pass*ed two historical bills upholding the rights of women, The Acid Control and Acid Crime Prevention Bill 2010 and The Prevention of Anti-Women Practices (Criminal Law Amendment) Bill 2008, on Monday  indicating the changing status of the Pakistani women.
The bill on Acid control and Acid Crime recommends 14-year to lifetime imprisonment sentences and levies fines up to Rs1 million for the perpetrators of the crime.*

The Senate unanimously passed the twice-snubbed landmark private bill demanding greater social protection for women, the Prevention of Anti-Women Practices Act 2011, which was authored by PML-Q MNA Dr Donya Aziz. It had remained stuck for three years, first in various National Assembly committees and then the house itself.

*Reactions*
Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani hailed the passage of the bills and congratulated the members of parliament asserting: This reflects the great effort and struggle by women lawmakers of Pakistan which will be praised by international community.

*The bills*
Mover of the acid prevention bill Senator Neelofar Bakhtiar expressed gratitude to the members of the Senate for supporting the bills regarding women-specific issues.
Senator Najma Hameed of PML-N also thanked the house and noted: Its a historical moment for us. For the first time there has been no opposition for any bill in the upper house.
The purpose of the bill is to control the import, production, transportation, hoarding, sale and use of acid to prevent misuse and provide legal support to acid and burn victims.
The bill was introduced last year by then MNA Marvi Memon, MNA Begum Shahnaz Sheikh and Advocate Anusha Rehman in a bid to prevent the growing incidents of violence against women. After much scrutiny, the committee of women development approved the bill in October 2011, further amending the Pakistan Penal Code 1860. The amendment in Section 336-B states: Whoever causes hurt by corrosive substance shall be punished with imprisonment for life or imprisonment of either description which shall not be less than fourteen years with a minimum fine of Rs1 million.
While appreciating the passage of the Prevention of Anti-Women Practices (Criminal Law Amendment) Bill, Dr Donya Aziz revealed that she and other supporters of the bill in the National Assembly and its standing committee had faced significant resistance.

*Fair treatment for the fairer sex*
 Forcing a woman into marriage for settling a dispute to be a non- bailable offence
 Bartering a woman in such a way to be punishable by three to five years jail and a fine of Rs0.5 million
 Depriving a woman of her inheritance can lead to imprisonment of between five and 10 years or a fine of Rs1 million or both
 Forced marriages (other than those for settling disputes) to be punishable by between three and 10 years jail and a fine of Rs0.5 million
 Forcing a woman to marry the Holy Quran to result in a jail term of three to seven years and a fine of Rs0.5 million
Published in The Express Tribune, December 13th, 2011

Women-specific bills passed: Fourteen-year jail term for acid-throwers &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## venu309

BRUSSELS (AFP) - A Belgian court on Monday sentenced four members of a Pakistani family to prison for the murder of their law student daughter and sister in the country's first "honour killing" trial.

After pronouncing the family members guilty for the shooting death of 20-year-old Sadia Sheikh in October 2007, the jury sentenced father Tarik Mahmood Sheikh to 25 years behind bars, mother Zahida Parveen Sariya to 20 years, brother Mudusar to 15 and sister Sariya to five years, media reported.

Lawyers for the family said brother Mudusar, who confessed to pulling the trigger on the three bullets that killed his sister, was handed a lesser jail term than his parents as they were considered to have ordered the girl's death.

Sadia Sheikh, who defied the family by living with a Belgian man and refusing an arranged marriage, was shot dead on October 22, 2007.

Mudusar admitted before the jury of five women and seven men to killing his sister, attempting to shield the rest of his family from any blame.

His parents and remaining sister stood accused of aiding and abetting the killing which took place when their victim visited her family in the hopes of patching up their quarrel.

Questioned during Belgium's first "honour killing" trial in south-western Mons, Mudusar said the killing was premeditated "for a long time."

The trial also involved rights groups pleading for gender equality as part of a civil suit at the hearings.

Sadia Sheikh left the family home to study after her shopkeeper parents tried to arrange a marriage with a cousin living in Pakistan whom she had never met.

Before moving in with a Belgian man her age named Jean, she was helped by fellow students and teachers and also spent some time in a centre for victims of domestic violence, where she drew up a will as she felt threatened.

She had nonetheless agreed to visit the family hoping to reach some form of reconciliation the day she was shot.

During the trial the brother surprised his own lawyer by suddenly confessing also to the attempted murder of his second sister and fellow defendant Sariya, now 22.

"I left you for dead," he told his sister beside him in the dock as his parents broke into tears.

On the subject of the honour killing he told the court; "I didn't want to take her (Sadia's) life, but to make her feel as bad as I felt."

His 61-year-old father and 59-year-old mother as well as sister Sariya, also face charges of "attempting to arrange a marriage."

They all denied involvement in the murder, saying Mudusar killed his sister in a fit of rage.

Prosecutors had asked for a life sentence for three of the defendants, and between 20 and 30 years behind bars for Sariya.

Pakistani family guilty of Belgian honour killing: media - Yahoo!7

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

It is sad, that a whole family is destroyed because of one person's mistake.


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## RPK

Man this in not social Fourm i really fedup posting news like this


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## venu309

RPK said:


> Man this in not social Fourm i really fedup posting news like this



I think I put it in the right section of 'current events & social issues'.


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## RPK

venu309 said:


> I think I put it in the right section of 'current events & social issues'.



Please limit yourself posting to defense related social problem is everywhere

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## venu309

RPK said:


> Please limit yourself posting to defense related social problem is everywhere



Ok fine, I will do that in future.


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## Gautam

i would advise Veena Malik not to go to pakistan for some time.


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## xataxsata

*Four bullet riddled bodies found in Balochistan*

Islamabad, Dec 12 (PTI) The bullet-riddled bodies of four men, including two who were kidnapped by unidentified persons some time ago, were found in the restive Balochistan province of southwest Pakistan today, police said.

The bodies of three youths were found beside a road on the outskirts of Khuzdar town this morning.

All three had been shot and killed.

Two of the dead men were identified as Bashir Ahmed and Muhammad Sanullah, two brothers who were kidnapped from Ismaelabad area of Khuzdar district some days ago.

Another body was found at Sardar Kariz on the outskirts of Quetta, the capital of Balochistan province.

Over 220 bullet-riddled bodies, most of them of activists of Baloch nationalist groups, have been found across Balochistan since the middle of last year.

*Rights groups have alleged that the men were victims of extra-judicial killings by security and intelligence agencies.*

Authorities have denied the charges.

Four bullet riddled bodies found in Balochistan - *

BNP-M leader among five dead | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


BNP activists killed: Three more people found dead in Balochistan &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## T90TankGuy

and now wait for the troll fest.


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## xataxsata

220 bullet-riddled bodies are too much to say anything.

If accusation on agencies are true then it can ignite anti army/ISI sentiments in locals.

International community should look into this.


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## Rana4pak

jbgt90 said:


> *and now wait for the troll fest*.


 i think u had spend a lot o time here u behave like a senior troll here ..


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## ameer219

Why isn't anybody commenting on this. It seems to be a great news considering the number of acid-throwing incidents occurring in the past few years.


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## scorpi786

Wastes of space, shoot them all too.


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## Rusty

People kill family members all the time
The only reason this is getting any attention is that Muslims did it, and that serves as another great propaganda tool for Islamophobes.

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## ashokdeiva

Rusty said:


> People kill family members all the time
> The only reason this is getting any attention is that Muslims did it, and that serves as another great propaganda tool for Islamophobes.


are you so dumb to understand the gravity of this situation, India is suffering a lot with honor killing, we are not denying it because it happened in our country and you are just trying to say this is because of islamaphobia its getting hype and you are talking as if killings are some thing normal.
It is not acceptable to kill a person because she/he wishes to follow her/his heart.

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## ashokdeiva

venu309 said:


> [/COLOR]It is sad, that a whole family is destroyed because of one person's mistake.


its not one persons mistake, its the immaturity of the family which got them behind bars.
The family should have viewed their little girls life precious than thinking about what the community will tell about them.
They should have started living for themself rather than living for the society.
I am a father of a daughter, if in the future if my baby wants to live a life of her desire, i should stand beside her not kill her for she following her heart

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## Developereo

ashokdeiva said:


> its not one persons mistake, its the immaturity of the family which got them behind bars.
> The family should have viewed their little girls life precious than thinking about what the community will tell about them.
> They should have started living for themself rather than living for the society.
> I am a father of a daughter, if in the future if my baby wants to live a life of her desire, i should stand beside her not kill her for she following her heart



Just to repeat what I wrote elsewhere...



Developereo said:


> Some more honor killings
> 
> Dad who killed daughter's boyfriend to serve 18 months - Saskatchewan - CBC News
> 
> Daughter testifies that father killed her boyfriend | CTV News
> 
> Pahrump man shoots, kills daughter's boyfriend - www.ktnv.com
> 
> Oh, wait, these were just "crimes of passion"....

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## Rusty

ashokdeiva said:


> are you so dumb to understand the gravity of this situation, India is suffering a lot with honor killing, we are not denying it because it happened in our country and you are just trying to say this is because of islamaphobia its getting hype and you are talking as if killings are some thing normal.
> It is not acceptable to kill a person because she/he wishes to follow her/his heart.



And are you so dumb as to not see how all the honor killing reported in western media just happen to be done by Muslims?

In Canada there was a big case of honor killing by a rich Sikh family, but the media barely reported it. If that was a muslim family then sure as hell it would be plastered all over the country.


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## Gold1010

The media is so biased yet developeroreo just showed 3 links of killings 1 of which is by a christian.

Its also interesting that rather then condemn this he trys to defend it.


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## ashokdeiva

Rusty said:


> And are you so dumb as to not see how all the honor killing reported in western media just happen to be done by Muslims?
> 
> In Canada there was a big case of honor killing by a rich Sikh family, but the media barely reported it. If that was a muslim family then sure as hell it would be plastered all over the country.


if you say that its a big case sure you have know of it and the Media has given due importance to the case so that you know about it.


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## acetophenol

Its sad news. Both sides cant be blamed

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------




Rusty said:


> People kill family members all the time
> The only reason this is getting any attention is that Muslims did it, and that serves as another great propaganda tool for Islamophobes.


 
Relax bro,the best way to cure islamophobes is not to fall into their trap. Lets the face the issues in a neutral way and set an example!


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## SQ8

Pathetic.. They could not raise their girl properly.. or instill these so called "family values" .. which is their own failure and not the girls fault. They kill her!
Hang them!
It was their responsibility to keep an eye on the girl and what she is doing in her life, if they were incapable of doing so.. then boo hoo.. they should have let go an let her live her life as she was.

HANG THEM!!

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## Desert Fox

Aussie4ever said:


> The media is so biased yet developeroreo just showed *3 links of killings 1 of which is by a christian.*



The point is why aren't those labeled as "honor killings"?? 



Aussie4ever said:


> Its also interesting that rather then condemn this he trys to defend it.



No one is defending it, unless you can prove me wrong by quoting anyone on this thread who was defending the murder of that girl.

---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------




Santro said:


> Pathetic.. They could not raise their girl properly.. or instill these so called "family values" .. which is their own failure and not the girls fault. They kill her!
> Hang them!
> It was their responsibility to keep an eye on the girl and what she is doing in her life, if they were incapable of doing so.. then boo hoo.. they should have let go an let her live her life as she was.
> 
> HANG THEM!!



Besides, they shouldn't be forcing the girl to marry her cousin, i can't imagine marrying my cousin, she's like a sister to me.


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## Desert Fox

ashokdeiva said:


> its not one persons mistake, its the immaturity of the family which got them behind bars.
> The family should have viewed their little girls life precious than thinking about what the community will tell about them.
> They should have started living for themself rather than living for the society.



Unfortunately this is how society is in Pakistan, in fact this way of thinking is embedded in our culture. Some People in Pakistan are so cheap and such hypocrites i don't even know where to begin!!!!!!!!! Man it just makes me angry from thinking about it......................


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## Gold1010

Desert Fox said:


> The point is why aren't those labeled as "honor killings"??
> 
> 
> 
> No one is defending it, unless you can prove me wrong by quoting anyone on this thread who was defending the murder of that girl.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, they shouldn't be forcing the girl to marry her cousin, i can't imagine marrying my cousin, she's like a sister to me.



By posting excuse links of killings done by westerners

So rather then condemning it the reaction is oh westerners do it 2.

If you read the links they are completely different from religious/ethnic honour killings.

They are about drugs and wackos hardly "honour killings"


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## ashokdeiva

Desert Fox said:


> Unfortunately this is how society is in Pakistan, in fact this way of thinking is embedded in our culture. Some People in Pakistan are so cheap and such hypocrites i don't even know where to begin!!!!!!!!! Man it just makes me angry from thinking about it......................


Brother this is how the Indian society is too, but most educated and inteligent parents are joining the main stream of not caring for what the society will brand them.
its you and me that are society, if i fear for your words then i won't be able to do any good to my familu or to the society.


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## VelocuR

the problem is I don't understand in the common Pakistanis. 

Family ask sons to kill their sisters, why can't son speak up against family decisions ?? Sons are the worst people than Al Qeada terrorists in organized plans..... Intolerances family and sons. I speak some of them, not everyone in general.

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## Irfan Baloch

RPK said:


> Please limit yourself posting to defense related social problem is everywhere



I created a thread for such posting if people cant help it but still they spam with news that have nothing to do with defence forum.. moving it anyways.

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## acetophenol

Santro said:


> Pathetic.. They could not raise their girl properly.. or instill these so called "family values" .. which is their own failure and not the girls fault. They kill her!
> Hang them!
> It was their responsibility to keep an eye on the girl and what she is doing in her life, if they were incapable of doing so.. then boo hoo.. they should have let go an let her live her life as she was.
> 
> HANG THEM!!


 
Santro-ji,
I don't think there is any problem in the way she grew up.she just followed her heart.


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## SQ8

acetophenol said:


> Santro-ji,
> I don't think there is any problem in the way she grew up.she just followed her heart.



If you start getting into drugs..is it not socially unacceptable?(I am not comparing this scenario to the news.. just an example).
First.. who introduced you to them? Who introduced you to those that encouraged you to take up addiction?
If you have responsible caring parents... they would go ahead and keep a check on your activities, your friends and advise when they feel it reflects badly upon you. So that you dont lose your identity that you are supposed to carry forward.

Here.. the parents seem to have neglected that entirely.. and then expected the girl to do something completely opposite to who she was... and tried to force her into it.
Im ready to bet that even her cousin was being forced into it to try and "save' the girl.


----------



## Rusty

ashokdeiva said:


> if you say that its a big case sure you have know of it and the Media has given due importance to the case so that you know about it.



The reason I know of it is because it was big news in the Indian community, the local Indian newspaper had reported it. 
But the mainstream Canadian media all but ignored it. I have not met a single white person in Canada who knew of that case.


----------



## thegreensprite

Areesh said:


> Ahmadis not only betrayed Islam but our country too. I saw many Ahmadis taking asylum in European countries saying that they are muslims and are facing persecution in Pakistan.



Errrm.....so Ahmadis don't face persecution in Pakistan? Is that what you believe?




> They brought disgrace to our country.



LOL... this is funny. So if it wasnt't for Ahmadis in Pakistan, everything would be hunky dory I suppose. Jahil irrational delusional people like you are who brought disgrace to Pakistan. Are you also banging your chest and demanding the "Holy Gun" LOL???

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## regular

Thorough Pro said:


> another false propaganda items, minorities in Pakistan have much better standards of living, rights and security than in the country on our eastern border.


Yes! U absolutely right about that......


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## Bratva

thegreensprite, Why Muslim nation didn't advance When Imam mahdi aka mirza ghulam ahmad came to world? why they are more divided after he came to world? 

Isn't the purpose of mahdi to gather whole ummah to one platform and he would fill this earth with justice, peace and tranquility?


----------



## thegreensprite

mafiya said:


> thegreensprite, Why Muslim nation didn't advance When Imam mahdi aka mirza ghulam ahmad came to world? why they are more divided after he came to world?



How old are you? Do you really think a person will appear and all Muslim nations will suddenly advance and become undivided overnight? Look at the Muslim nations currently, they have more than enough wealth and brains to advance, if they acted like real Muslims, they would be undivided and unbeatable by I any adversary. It's actually the love for money and power that has made Muslims weak, stop waiting for the Imam Mehdi to fix everything that you are incapable of sorting yourself. For us Ahmadi Muslims he came and went and left behind a valuable message and blueprint of how to spread the message of the Prophet(pbuh) globally through the true ways of Islam and education. We are not standing still, we make progress on a daily basis, unlike our majority Muslim masses who only seem to love fighting and show the power of Islam through violence.



> Isn't the purpose of mahdi to gather whole ummah to one platform and he would fill this earth with justice, peace and tranquility?



I'm not sure this earth will ever be 100% fulfilled with justice, peace and tranquility, I think you have been taking too many of your pills and living in fantasy world. This is the problem you hit when you don't educate yourself. Have you ever read any books on anything but jihad. The Qur'an is a very simple to read yet complicated at the same time, each verse has many meanings, you can not take stuff literately or out of context, you need to read it fully and understand it before coming to childlike fantasist conclusions like above.


----------



## Sinnerman108

thegreensprite said:


> *How old are you? Do you really think a person will appear and all Muslim nations will suddenly advance and become undivided overnight? Look at the Muslim nations currently, they have more than enough wealth and brains to advance, if they acted like real Muslims, they would be undivided and unbeatable by I any adversary. It's actually the love for money and power that has made Muslims weak, stop waiting for the Imam Mehdi to fix everything that you are incapable of sorting yourself. For us Ahmadi Muslims he came and went and left behind a valuable message and blueprint of how to spread the message of the Prophet(pbuh) globally through the true ways of Islam and education. We are not standing still, we make progress on a daily basis, unlike our majority Muslim masses who only seem to love fighting and show the power of Islam through violence.
> 
> 
> *
> I'm not sure this earth will ever be 100% fulfilled with justice, peace and tranquility, I think you have been taking too many of your pills and living in fantasy world. This is the problem you hit when you don't educate yourself. Have you ever read any books on anything but jihad. The Qur'an is a very simple to read yet complicated at the same time, each verse has many meanings, you can not take stuff literately or out of context, you need to read it fully and understand it before coming to childlike fantasist conclusions like above.



Stop trying to teach us our religion.

We believe Imam Mehdi will come, and we will stick to the signs of Mehdi as prescribed by the Last prophet Muhammad S.A.W (Ref: Medina) him self.

Thus this shall be a good example of why a Qadyani should be called just that and NOT a muslim.

He has a certain set of belief, fine he shall practice and continue on with that, but DO NOT call your self Muslims for we believe in something else.


----------



## scorpi786

Aeronaut said:


> you like to cherry pick dont you?
> 
> Pakistan is an Islamic state which was created for Muslims only But allows Minorities to live in peace and co existance.
> 
> But it is crystal clear that ahmadis are a cult of propegenda created by their British dadies to divide Muslims and they succeeded to do so.
> 
> we the Pakistani muslims can live in peace with all religions but not with ahmadis as they are not exactly a religion but a bunch of thugs who dont even know what they are upto.
> 
> Thus they do not deserve a minority status of a proper religion and they are allowed to do whatever the sh!t they have to do ie worshiping their satanic masters in Rabwa and do not bring their crap in rest of the country.
> 
> Again the words are simple ahmadis are not very much wanted in Pakistan because they defy fundamentals of Pakistan.
> 
> if they cant live in Pakistan like normal citizens and within their limits they should bring few more fake cases to seek asylum in UK and Canada where they can live happily ever after.
> 
> Thanks



Over Generalising BS. The average ahmedi is the same as the average muslim apart from his beliefs, people are the same whatever creed they belong to.

I think most want to live fine, like you they have kids and mothers they're not aliens.

After people saying the same about us being terrorists I thought some of us would understand but no carry one with the same hate filled ignorant rants.

Bunch of muppets, getting sick of all the hate and lies in our community.

And then you wonder why no one likes us, why we are infamous for all the wrong reasons.

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## Karachiite

Thorough Pro said:


> another false propaganda items, minorities in Pakistan have much better standards of living, rights and security than in the country on our eastern border.




No they don`t. Maybe the condition of minorities are better than our western neighbours but not our neighbour to the east. When a country denies it`s minority citizens from becoming the President or PM then it loses all it`s credibility when it comes to equal rights for minorities. Historic century old temples are lying in a pathetic state. It is perfectly OK to demolish a temple or church but people will sh-t their pants just thinking about what would happen if a mosque (most likely built on stolen land) is demolished. A person from a minority religion is put on death row under blasphemy for not converting to Islam, is this what you call great security?

But judging from your avatar it seems you like to live in a world full of delusion. Happy wet dreams!

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## jetti

salman108 said:


> Stop trying to teach us our religion.
> 
> We believe Imam Mehdi will come, and we will stick to the signs of Mehdi as prescribed by the Last prophet Muhammad S.A.W (Ref: Medina) him self.
> 
> Thus this shall be a good example of why a Qadyani should be called just that and NOT a muslim.
> 
> He has a certain set of belief, fine he shall practice and continue on with that, but DO NOT call your self Muslims for we believe in something else.


if sunnis are one flavour of muslims ahmadis are another. a vanilla and chocolate icecreams aer different but they are still icecreams


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## Sinnerman108

jetti said:


> if sunnis are one flavour of muslims ahmadis are another. a vanilla and chocolate icecreams aer different but they are still icecreams



going by your analogy,
all flavors of ice cream are assumed to be cold, soft and usually sweet.

if some thing violated those basic assumptions it would be difficult to call it ice cream. 
Specially if the maker of the new product tries to steal your trademark.


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## jetti

salman108 said:


> going by your analogy,
> all flavors of ice cream are assumed to be cold, soft and *usually sweet*.
> 
> if some thing violated those basic assumptions it would be difficult to call it ice cream.
> Specially if the maker of the new product tries to steal your trademark.



you yourself are saying tht it is usually sweet, so the point is you can have not sweet icecream (garlic flavour. sea salt) as well. but its still called icecream. Similarly ahmadis believe in most things but have a slightly different point of view , so they maybe called lets say rum n raisin instead of plain vanilla of sunnis.
however most dangerous is , everything that is cold soft and sweet (like shrikhand), is not an icecream. thats what these mullahs and fundamentalists are, they say they believe in islam but by virtue of their actions they are not muslims.


----------



## Gautam

Khanna: Hindu families from Pakistan,
living in Punjab for the past several
years, on Monday demanded
citizenship rights to vote in the
January 30 state assembly election.

"In the absence of any citizenship
rights, we have no ration cards,
licences, voter cards, homes and
employment. We face problems
everywhere," said a Pak Hindu, now
settled here.

He demanded Indian citizenship to
vote in the Punjab assembly election
saying "we consider India as our
motherland."

Fruit vendor Pujari Lal, also a
Pakistani Hindu, said he and his family
members want to participate in the
electoral process but they were not
eligible to vote.

Some families, living in Rajpura, say
they are still fighting for citizenship
rights and are not allowed to leave the
town without the permission of police.

"They entered India with valid travel
documents, but refused to return home citing ill-treatment in Pakistan and the court has given them stay," a Rajpura police official said.

zeenews.**********/news/punjab-polls/pak-hindu-families-demand-voting-rights_753008.html

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## fd24

If someone is not receiving the courtesy and respect in the country of their birth and choice of living its a sad state of affairs and understandably a sad state of affairs. However i must stress to you that i am aware of literally of dozens of Indian Muslims conversely doing the same and coming to Pakistan and wanting to move away from the difficulties in Gujarat. Its a sad case for all minorities. I wish the majority wouldn't bully the minority.

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## Gandhi G in da house

superkaif said:


> If someone is not receiving the courtesy and respect in the country of their birth and choice of living its a sad state of affairs and understandably a sad state of affairs. However i must stress to you that i am aware of literally of dozens of Indian Muslims conversely doing the same and coming to Pakistan and wanting to move away from the difficulties in Gujarat. Its a sad case for all minorities. I wish the majority wouldn't bully the minority.


 gujarati muslims are moving to pakistan ? I wasnt aware of this . Source please


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## ILLUMINATO

Self delete


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## nalandapride

superkaif said:


> If someone is not receiving the courtesy and respect in the country of their birth and choice of living its a sad state of affairs and understandably a sad state of affairs. However i must stress to you that i am aware of literally of dozens of Indian Muslims conversely doing the same and coming to Pakistan and wanting to move away from the difficulties in Gujarat. Its a sad case for all minorities. I wish the majority wouldn't bully the minority.



Please provide the link. How many of Gujarati Muslims moved to Pakistan.


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## Gautam

superkaif said:


> If someone is not receiving the courtesy and respect in the country of their birth and choice of living its a sad state of affairs and understandably a sad state of affairs. However i must stress to you that i am aware of literally of dozens of Indian Muslims conversely doing the same and coming to Pakistan and wanting to move away from the difficulties in Gujarat. Its a sad case for all minorities. I wish the majority wouldn't bully the minority.


which Gujarati muslims went to pakistan because of Gujarat riots? 

If they did - whom would you blame to start that entire episode?


----------



## fd24

nick_indian said:


> gujarati muslims are moving to pakistan ? I wasnt aware of this . Source please



I know of seveal in the last 12 months. They are based in Alipore a village in Chikhli Taluka of Navsari District in the state of Gujarat. I dont want to go personal and give names etc

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## Gandhi G in da house

superkaif said:


> I know of seveal in the last 12 months. They are based in Alipore a village in Chikhli Taluka of Navsari District in the state of Gujarat. I dont want to go personal and give names etc


 brother i wont doubt your words but you know if you dont provide any definite sources for your claims then they wont hold much water .


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## fd24

Gautam said:


> which Gujarati muslims went to pakistan because of Gujarat riots?
> 
> If they did - whom would you blame to start that entire episode?



Why are you trying to derail the thread? The Gujarat riots were 10 years ago - this is not the subject on this thread and its certainly not the reason why these people are moving.


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## kingkobra

superkaif said:


> I know of seveal in the last 12 months. They are based in Alipore a village in Chikhli Taluka of Navsari District in the state of Gujarat. I dont want to go personal and give names etc



give link or its not true  i dont think country like pakistan wouldn't make issue of this on global scale


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## nalandapride

superkaif said:


> I know of seveal in the last 12 months. They are based in Alipore a village in Chikhli Taluka of Navsari District in the state of Gujarat. I dont want to go personal and give names etc



You are living in UK, how do you know some of them. Did you meet any Bohra or Memon who migrated to Pakistan back in 1947

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## Gautam

superkaif said:


> Why are you trying to derail the thread? The Gujarat riots were 10 years ago - this is not the subject on this thread and its certainly not the reason why these people are moving.


Kiddo- go read your own post where you mentioned Gujarat. you are suffering from short term memory loss.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

same reality with indian Muslims, actually....

though i do agree that as citizens of Pakistan they should be allowed 100% unhindered access to vote. As long as they arent criminals/offenders and as long as they are registered in the proper manner to vote.

i dont know how accurate the report is, but if they are claiming hindustan as their motherland, then i believe this will narrow dramatically their prospects to participate in Pakistani politics --or even be citizens of Pakistan quite frankly

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## harpoon

What were the Hindus thinking staying back in Pakistan in 1947..that they will be treated as equals in an Islamic nation?

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## Nelson

superkaif said:


> I know of seveal in the last 12 months. They are based in Alipore a village in Chikhli Taluka of Navsari District in the state of Gujarat. I dont want to go personal and give names etc


So you tried hard in Google to find a link about your claim, huh? It seems you didn't find any!

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## Nelson

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> keep in mind that majority of the Hindus that stayed behind in Pakistan were what indians today would consider "low caste" or "untouchable"
> 
> 
> they would likely be sweeping the street and picking up human dung in street-side gutters (as opposed to being farmers and living at least with some dignity the way they do in Pakistan)
> 
> 
> so that's probably why they opted to remain in Pakistan, despite their very tiny numbers and presence. In fact, the hindus time and time again have demonstrated pride at being Pakistani citizens --- and a few google searches would prove this
> 
> i was happy to see that many have thrown their support behind Imran Khan & PTI movement


It quite evident from the thread that those Pakistanis chose to pick up human dungs in India rather than living in Pakistan with the so called dignity, ain't it?

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## ganesh177

I guess thats the punshment for those people for making a wrong choice back then. 
You cant expect a rose from a cactus tree.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Nelson said:


> It quite evident from the thread that those Pakistanis chose to pick up human dungs in India rather than living in Pakistan with the so called dignity, ain't it?



is there a mass exodus?

by the same token of logic, tell me why many many indian Gujrati Muslims (especially women) made their way across to Pakistan; many of them marrying locally


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## KS

Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan need to put '47 behind and move onto India to start a new life. Your spiritual motherland is waiting for you with open arms. The Govt on its part needs to expedite the process of giving them citizenship so that they put their bad dream behind and start afresh ASAP.




superkaif said:


> If someone is not receiving the courtesy and respect in the country of their birth and choice of living its a sad state of affairs and understandably a sad state of affairs. However i must stress to you that i am aware of literally of dozens of Indian Muslims conversely doing the same and coming to Pakistan and wanting to move away from the difficulties in Gujarat. Its a sad case for all minorities. I wish the majority wouldn't bully the minority.



Is it..? And we are supposed to believe you "literal" cases ?

---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------




harpoon said:


> What were the Hindus thinking staying back in Pakistan in 1947..that they will be treated as equals in an Islamic nation?



Hindu line of thought -- that every faith is equal. You can't fault them.

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## Gautam

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> is there a mass exodus?
> 
> by the same token of logic, tell me why many many indian Gujrati Muslims (especially women) made their way across to Pakistan; many of them marrying locally


kindly tell us which Gujarati muslims went to pakistan because of bad treatment from Indian authorities or people?


----------



## Imran Khan

baki sab ko rights mil chuky hain jesy ? formers civil services kids womens old age pensioners even PIA workers looking for rights here hahaahahha aik or sahi .

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## Abu Zolfiqar

most of the Sikhs in Pakistan I've met were virulently anti-india.....especially the ones in Lahore and Pindi


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## fd24

Gautam said:


> Kiddo- go read your own post where you mentioned Gujarat. you are suffering from short term memory loss.



I was refering to their location origionally. I didnt mention riots.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gautam said:


> Kindly tell us which Gujarati Muslims went to Pak because of bad treatment from Indian authorities or people?



oh well gee whiz, sorry i forgot to ask them for their names and identification numbers.....you want their address too?


----------



## fd24

Nelson said:


> So you tried hard in Google to find a link about your claim, huh? It seems you didn't find any!



think what you want i know the truth. I come from a place where there is a high population of peoples from Gujarat - thats where i gained the knowledge.Please dont bracket me with the likes of yourself that look for threads to troll. I was merely pointing out how certain people from Gujarat have moved location for numerous. Not wanting to divulge their names is a matter for me. Wish Yeti was not banned as he would confirm what i have said. I will let you ponder what i would have to gain in posting nonsense. Adios


----------



## Gautam

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> oh well gee whiz, sorry i forgot to ask them for their names and identification numbers.....you want their address too?


LOL
do you have any link to support your claim that Gujarati muslims migrated to pakistan?

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------




superkaif said:


> I was refering to their location origionally. I didnt mention riots.


why you are talking about Indian muslims in the first place? this thread is not about them! why you started derailing thread by mentioning them?


----------



## notsuperstitious

Given the ideologies of the two countries, if Indian minorities are ill treated, its indeed a failure for India. By the same token, if Pakistani minorities are ill treated, its a success for Pakistan. So I agree Pakistan is a more successful nation than India. Sad but true.

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## Dalai Lama

fateh71 said:


> Given the ideologies of the two countries, if Indian minorities are ill treated, its indeed a failure for India. By the same token, if Pakistani minorities are ill treated, its a success for Pakistan. So I agree Pakistan is a more successful nation than India. Sad but true.



Oh well, I guess we've lost this one.  Well done Pakistan!

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## Nelson

superkaif said:


> think what you want i know the truth. I come from a place where there is a high population of peoples from Gujarat - thats where i gained the knowledge.Please dont bracket me with the likes of yourself that look for threads to troll. I was merely pointing out how certain people from Gujarat have moved location for numerous. Not wanting to divulge their names is a matter for me. Wish Yeti was not banned as he would confirm what i have said. I will let you ponder what i would have to gain in posting nonsense. Adios


You are badly busted kaify. 

Muslims migrate to Pakistan because of ill treatment in India (as you "claim!"), and it does not even come in news? At least lie properly. Give us the link and I don't have to call you a liar.

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## prabhakar

Sadly, few pakistani troller had hijacked the thread from the second post without any evidence or even a bogus link. The sad state of affairs of minorities are well known, but what you can expect from a country where muslims kill muslims. sorry for my harsh words.

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## Nelson

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> is there a mass exodus?
> 
> by the same token of logic, tell me why many many indian Gujrati Muslims (especially women) made their way across to Pakistan; many of them marrying locally


When did that happen? 

I just love the way you guys make stories. Who says Pakistanis don't have talent!!

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## fd24

Nelson said:


> You are badly busted kaify.
> 
> Muslims migrate to Pakistan because of ill treatment in India (as you "claim!"), and it does not even come in news? At least lie properly. Give us the link and I don't have to call you a liar.



Now then mr "troll". Im badly busted? - said the guy who gets regularly banned for low quality posts?

I will give you a couple of examples. Ismail Makda - has moved to Pakistan over 25 years. His son in law lives in Warwick Road batley West Yorks - runs a very successful Grocery shop called Kola Brothers - his name is Haroon.
Another chap i know that has moved from Gujarat to Pakistan with his family is called Suleman Adam. He is well known in the area for his achievements in the cricketing world. Great guy - and owns a illustrious business with cricketing equipment. As far as im aware he actually sponsers Saeed Ajmal. His business empire is an international success and his website is
https://www.solly-sports.com/
Now here are a couple of examples i can give to you that i know personally. Its a shame yeti is banned as he would vouch for what im saying. Before insinuating or accusing others of being busted and lying look at your own track record of constant rubbish you post.
I am aware of several others personally i think its sad that anyone from Pakistan or India has to migrate.
What i am aware is these gentleman regularly travel back to visit family and dont have any probs with visa issues etc.

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## KS

superkaif said:


> Now then mr "troll". Im badly busted? - said the guy who gets regularly banned for low quality posts?
> 
> I will give you a couple of examples. Ismail Makda - has moved to Pakistan over 25 years. His son in law lives in Warwick Road batley West Yorks - runs a very successful Grocery shop called Kola Brothers - his name is Haroon.
> Another chap i know that has moved from Gujarat to Pakistan with his family is called Suleman Adam. He is well known in the area for his achievements in the cricketing world. Great guy - and owns a illustrious business with cricketing equipment. As far as im aware he actually sponsers Saeed Ajmal. His business empire is an international success and his website is
> https://www.solly-sports.com/
> Now here are a couple of examples i can give to you that i know personally. Its a shame yeti is banned as he would vouch for what im saying. Before insinuating or accusing others of being busted and lying look at your own track record of constant rubbish you post.
> I am aware of several others personally i think its sad that anyone from Pakistan or India has to migrate.
> What i am aware is these gentleman regularly travel back to visit family and dont have any probs with visa issues etc.



Good job giving some random names and throwing in your fertile imagination into the mix.

All that was asked was a source/link saying Gujrati Muslims migrated to Pak to escape riots and you have not been able to provide that.

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## gubbi

Gautam said:


> Some families, living in Rajpura, say
> they are still fighting for citizenship
> rights and are not allowed to leave the
> town without the permission of police.
> 
> "They entered India with valid travel
> documents, but refused to return home citing ill-treatment in Pakistan and the court has given them stay," a Rajpura police official said.



Why should these people be allowed voting rights in India? They are Pakistani citizens. Period. When their applications for Indian citizenship gets accepted and they become full fledged citizens, they would not have any problems. Just because they happen to be Hindus from Pakistan doesnt given them rights to claim voting rights in India nor citizenship.

They came to India on tourist visas and overstayed their welcome. That in itself is a criminal act. Period. Let the courts deal with them.

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## BATMAN

I'm a Pakistani but i have no vote.

This is despite the fact that i'm one of those individuals who were the first to receive CNIC in Pakistan.

Can media take my case.. equally serious?

While according to constitution of Pakistan all minorities have double voting rights. Therefore, no one will take those hindus seriously.. until they come up with another reason.


----------



## nalandapride

superkaif said:


> Now then mr "troll". Im badly busted? - said the guy who gets regularly banned for low quality posts?



The Big  *?* is where is the proof that Gujaratis migrated to Pakistan. You suppose to prove your words with news articles.

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## KS

gubbi said:


> Why should these people be allowed voting rights in India? They are Pakistani citizens. Period. When their applications for Indian citizenship gets accepted and they become full fledged citizens, they would not have any problems. Just because they happen to be Hindus from Pakistan doesnt given them rights to claim voting rights in India nor citizenship.
> 
> *They came to India on tourist visas and overstayed their welcome. That in itself is a criminal act. Period. Let the courts deal with them*.



Criminal Act..? Technically yes, morally NO.

These Hindus who escaped persecution in Pakistan must be given citizenship ASAP so that they can start anew.

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## IndoUS

KS said:


> Criminal Act..? Technically yes, morally NO.
> 
> These Hindus who escaped persecution in Pakistan must be given citizenship ASAP so that they can start anew.



It has to go to a court, if that was the case then the millions of other illegal immigrants in India should just cry that they are ill treated in their country. Court should look into the matter and decide what actions to take. 

And one thing should be made strictly clear *NO CITIZENSHIP=NO VOTING RIGHT*, they can legally apply for citizenship and move to India.


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## livingdead

If hindus say they are ill treated in pakistan, they need to go through proper process of law instead of using political pressure.


----------



## KS

IndoUS said:


> It has to go to a court, if that was the case then the millions of other illegal immigrants in India should just cry that they are ill treated in their country. Court should look into the matter and decide what actions to take.
> 
> And one thing should be made strictly clear *NO CITIZENSHIP=NO VOTING RIGHT*, they can legally apply for citizenship and move to India.



Technically according to TNT, the Hindus/Sikhs anywhere in the sub-continent can move to India. But this is not true for the other communities especially if you are referring to the illegal migrants from Bangladesh.

I don't think the court should have any say in this matter. This is purely a political matter and should be treated as such.


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## IndoUS

KS said:


> Technically according to TNT, the Hindus/Sikhs anywhere in the sub-continent can move to India. But this is not true for the other communities especially if you are referring to the illegal migrants from Bangladesh.
> 
> I don't think the court should have any say in this matter. This is purely a political matter and should be treated as such.



Not saying that they can't move to India, only saying that if they belong to another country and move to India then they should be a legal citizen and then only they can get the voting right. As a Indian born citizen it is my right to vote and elect a leader, but I don't want some one from other country with different citizenship coming to India and demanding right to vote based on religion. If this not the case then I say so much for being a secular country.


----------



## livingdead

KS said:


> Criminal Act..? Technically yes, morally NO.
> 
> These Hindus who escaped persecution in Pakistan must be given citizenship ASAP so that they can start anew.


They have to prove that they have really been ill treated and face threat in future. There should be a due process, a hindu anywhere in the world does not automatically get citizenship in India.
We are not israel.

UK has proper process of for asylum seekers, I hope we have something like that.


----------



## KS

IndoUS said:


> Not saying that they can't move to India, only saying that if they belong to another country and move to India then they should be a legal citizen and then only they can get the voting right. As a Indian born citizen it is my right to vote and elect a leader, but I don't want some one from other country with different citizenship coming to India and demanding right to vote based on religion. If this not the case then I say so much for being a secular country.



I never said they should get voting rights before becoming legal citizens of India, but only that they should be granted legal citizenship without any hassles ASAP.


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## IndoUS

hinduguy said:


> They have to prove that they have really been ill treated and face threat in future. There should be a due process, a hindu anywhere in the world does not automatically get citizenship in India.
> We are not israel.
> 
> UK has proper process of for asylum seekers, I hope we have something like that.



There has to be naturalization process, they must know the history and facts about the Independence of India, they must also know important figures in history of India. There has to be a easy oral or written test to make sure that they share the common vision of India.


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## KS

hinduguy said:


> They have to prove that they have really been ill treated and face threat in future. There should be a due process, a hindu anywhere in the world does not automatically get citizenship in India.
> We are not israel.
> 
> UK has proper process of for asylum seekers, I hope we have something like that.



A Hindu anywhere in the world does not get automatic citizenship --agreed !. But according to TNT any Hindu from the sub-continet (Bangladesh and Pakistan) must get citizenship.

A Hindu from Switzerland and a Hindu from Pakistan are not the same in this regard.

---------- Post added at 04:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 AM ----------




IndoUS said:


> There has to be naturalization process, they must know the history and facts about the Independence of India, they must also know important figures in history of India. There has to be a easy oral or written test to make sure that they share the common vision of India.



Oh c'mon, they are as much part of this culture as anyone else.

Did the ones who moved to India during Partition did those formalities..? These people are only doing what others did in 1947.


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## livingdead

KS said:


> A Hindu anywhere in the world does not get automatic citizenship --agreed !. But according to TNT any Hindu from the sub-continet (Bangladesh and Pakistan) must get citizenship.
> 
> A Hindu from Switzerland and a Hindu from Pakistan are not the same in this regard.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Oh c'mon, they are as much part of this culture as anyone else.
> 
> Did the ones who moved to India during Partition did those formalities..? These people are only doing what others did in 1947.


What about ahmedis and shias and christians. They were part of same region, right?
This is a humanitarian issue, and there should be a due process which can prove they face danger in their home country.
The process should neither be difficult not be too easy.


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## KS

hinduguy said:


> *What about ahmedis and shias and christians. *They were part of same region, right?
> This is a humanitarian issue, and there should be a due process which can prove they face danger in their home country.
> The process should neither be difficult not be too easy.



Ahmedis and Shiahs are still Muslims and they are not covered in TNT on the Indian side. Their condition is worrying and I sympathize with them..but still nothing cant be done from our side. But its a different case when it comes to Hindus/Sikhs as TNT provides them to move to India from BD/Pak to escape persecution by majority.

This is not simply a humanitarian issue..its a humanitarian issue which needs to be solved in the lines of TNT.


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## gubbi

KS said:


> Criminal Act..? Technically yes, morally NO.
> 
> These Hindus who escaped persecution in Pakistan must be given citizenship ASAP so that they can start anew.



Why? Just because they are Hindus? How about doing that for other persecuted minorities in Pakistan like the Ahmedis? It is none of our business.

I say let the courts decide their fate. They violated terms of their visa. Period. There is no moral ambiguity about it.

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## venu309

India is for Indians, no matter what religion he or she follows. Just because a person is a hindu does not mean he or she will be accepted as an Indian. We have enough population of our own to accept any more refugees or migrants, whether Hindus or whatever. If they are not accepted in their home country, too bad....we are not here to solve everybody's problems just because they are Hindus.


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## EjazR

There are 300,000 "Pakistanis" stranded in Bangladeshi that have YET to be accepted by Pakistan.
*Empathy for &#8216;stranded Pakistanis&#8217; in Bangladesh | Provinces | DAWN.COM*
So I doubt there would be any welcome party if any Indian Muslim goes to Pakistan.

Overall, the situation in Pakistan is bad even for sub-sects within Islam where Shias, Ahmedis e.t.c are being targeted. So security for other minority groups would be bad as well.

Areas in Sindh are probably more safer for Hindus and other non-Muslims than Punjab though.

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## Nelson

superkaif said:


> Now then mr "troll". Im badly busted? - said the guy who gets regularly banned for low quality posts?
> 
> I will give you a couple of examples. Ismail Makda - has moved to Pakistan over 25 years. His son in law lives in Warwick Road batley West Yorks - runs a very successful Grocery shop called Kola Brothers - his name is Haroon.
> Another chap i know that has moved from Gujarat to Pakistan with his family is called Suleman Adam. He is well known in the area for his achievements in the cricketing world. Great guy - and owns a illustrious business with cricketing equipment. As far as im aware he actually sponsers Saeed Ajmal. His business empire is an international success and his website is
> https://www.solly-sports.com/
> Now here are a couple of examples i can give to you that i know personally. Its a shame yeti is banned as he would vouch for what im saying. Before insinuating or accusing others of being busted and lying look at your own track record of constant rubbish you post.
> I am aware of several others personally i think its sad that anyone from Pakistan or India has to migrate.
> What i am aware is these gentleman regularly travel back to visit family and dont have any probs with visa issues etc.


Seems you have done Phd in lying. Do you want us to believe these random names and crap stories? 

Let us make it very simple. Do you have a link for your claim? (I'm asking you for the 3rd time) If yes, then please post it. If no, then you should apologise for showing your lying talent. Come on now, be a man (i.e. if you are!) Its an open challenge.


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## divya

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *same reality with indian Muslims, actually....*
> 
> though i do agree that as citizens of Pakistan they should be allowed 100% unhindered access to vote. As long as they arent criminals/offenders and as long as they are registered in the proper manner to vote.
> 
> i dont know how accurate the report is, but if they are claiming hindustan as their motherland, then i believe this will narrow dramatically their prospects to participate in Pakistani politics --or even be citizens of Pakistan quite frankly



No actually Indian muslims have equal rights and also the right to practise and follow their religon. For the same reason there is a separate islamic code for them. In India governance cannot be discriminated based caste creed sex religion region etc.

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## LaBong

Anyone who has survived religious persecution should be given amensty, be him/her Hindu/Muslim/Budhhist/Zorastrian or Christian. However the pretext should not be TNT, our nation isn't based on that flawed idea.

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## Smarterthanyou

Here is why I have read so many think tanks in the US say that India Pakistan relationship is of Pakistan trying to get parity. Here you have a simple topic that should make any human agree that if you are a citizen of a country, you should have equal rights. But instead you have people derailing the topic by talking about India's Muslims.

In the US we used to have similar policies, it was called Slavery. Pakistan just has a modern and slightly less variation of it. Hope someday you will learn from our follies.

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## Screambowl

haha in India those who have rights don't vote what are they going to do with elections cards. The matter is the recognition as an Indian but not as a stateless person. T


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## Don Jaguar

Smarterthanyou said:


> In the US we used to have similar policies, it was called Slavery. *Pakistan* just has a modern and slightly less variation of it. Hope someday you will learn from our follies.



Actually this thread is showing us that even hindus of pakistani origin do not get equal rights in india.

Why you are dragging pakistan in it?


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## Black Widow

If I will become PM, I will give voting rights to all hindus, irrespective of place they live. Every Hindu will be born citizen of Hindustan...


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## baker

gubbi said:


> Why? Just because they are Hindus? How about doing that for other persecuted minorities in Pakistan like the Ahmedis? It is none of our business.
> 
> I say let the courts decide their fate. They violated terms of their visa. Period. There is no moral ambiguity about it.


+100 to this....
we can not put red carpet to all the hindus who facing issues in neighbouring countries..... , we do have enough issues to tackle here it self ...


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## RajputWarrior

Such a shame. And even a bigger shame where members such as Superkaif try to justify the matter comparing it to made up stories of Gujarati Muslims. When will this self denial end.


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## Black Widow

baker said:


> +100 to this....
> we can not put red carpet to all the hindus who facing issues in neighbouring countries..... , we do have enough issues to tackle here it self ...




Why ? Coz they are Hindu?? Do you know how easy it is for Muslims (esp Bangladeshi muslims) to get a ration card and voter card?? 

A hindu is most hated, most rejected creature in Hindustan. If one talk about hindu, he is communal. If one oppress Hindu he is secular.. Great going India... 

Shame Shame Indian govt..


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## KS

gubbi said:


> Why? Just because they are Hindus? How about doing that for other persecuted minorities in Pakistan like the Ahmedis? It is none of our business.
> 
> I say let the courts decide their fate. They violated terms of their visa. Period. There is no moral ambiguity about it.



Ahmedis are Muslims and as I have explained TNT does not cover them, but Hindus/Sikhs..yes they are covered and it is our busines when they say this is their motherland.and they are true on that count.

This is not just a humanitarian issue...its a political issue as well and a continuation of the Partition migration. Why view it differently from the great migration of '47 ?

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## KS

venu309 said:


> India is for Indians, no matter what religion he or she follows. Just because a person is a hindu does not mean he or she will be accepted as an Indian. We have enough population of our own to accept any more refugees or migrants, whether Hindus or whatever. If they are not accepted in their home country, too bad....we are not here to solve everybody's problems just because they are Hindus.



India is for all Indians..agreed. No one disputes that. Every one born in India is an Indian citizen and gets to enjoy he same constitutional benefits irrespective of their religion.

But let us not get into fancy notions of TNT not playing any role in the demographics of India..That would be an insult to history.Millions crossed the border in '47 because they felt they would be safer in India and we welcomed them..millions could NOT crossbecause they thought they would be safer there and also because they could not cross in time. So some of the remaining are crossing over now. Why the big fuss ? How different it is from the migration of '47 ?

Like it or not, TNT *did* play a role in Indian nation building and these Hindus who wish to cross over must be respected for their choice and accepted as Indian citizens. Period.

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## divya

KS said:


> India is for all Indians..agreed. No one disputes that. Every one born in India is an Indian citizen and gets to enjoy he same constitutional benefits irrespective of their religion.
> 
> But let us not get into fancy notions of TNT not playing any role in the demographics of India..That would be an insult to history.Millions crossed the border in '47 because they felt they would be safer in India and we welcomed them..millions could NOT crossbecause they thought they would be safer there and also because they could not cross in time. So some of the remaining are crossing over now. Why the big fuss ? How different it is from the migration of '47 ?
> 
> Like it or not, TNT *did* play a role in Indian nation building and these Hindus who wish to cross over must be respected for their choice and accepted as Indian citizens. Period.




But at the same time if because of problems back in Pakistan including Muslims start crossing the borders and start giving the reasons as you just said nationality cannot be given to everyone. Even the Muslims can migrate to India for India is for everyone not just Hindus. My point is Pakistan is currently in bad shape and so even if the population starts migrating are we in a state to give the citizenship to everyone.


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## KS

divya said:


> But at the same time if because of problems back in Pakistan including Muslims start crossing the borders and start giving the reasons as you just said nationality cannot be given to everyone. Even the Muslims can migrate to India for India is for everyone not just Hindus. My point is Pakistan is currently in bad shape and so even if the population starts migrating are we in a state to give the citizenship to everyone.



No (BD & Pak) Muslims have a home in Bangladesh and Pakistan and their crossing over to India cannot be equated with a persecuted Hindu moving over.

That is what TNT is all about.

p.s.:- You look like Prathiba Patil holding that AK....

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## divya

KS said:


> No (BD & Pak) Muslims have a home in Bangladesh and Pakistan and their crossing over to India cannot be equated with a persecuted Hindu moving over.
> 
> That is what TNT is all about.
> 
> p.s.:- You look like Prathiba Patil holding that AK....



Well i do agree with that but at the same time we say India is for everyone and then we say we should allow just Hindus. Wont that be the negetaion for the entire ideology for India. It doesnt matter if he is a hindu or a muslim at the national level.

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## Don Jaguar

KS said:


> p.s.:- You look like Prathiba Patil holding that AK....



Its a pakistani girl from abbottabad.


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## AMRITSAR

superkaif said:


> If someone is not receiving the courtesy and respect in the country of their birth and choice of living its a sad state of affairs and understandably a sad state of affairs. However i must stress to you that i am aware of literally of dozens of Indian Muslims conversely doing the same and coming to Pakistan and wanting to move away from the difficulties in Gujarat. Its a sad case for all minorities. I wish the majority wouldn't bully the minority.



and Pakistani Muslim businessman are shifting their business to Bangladesh.


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## KS

divya said:


> Well i do agree with that but at the same time we say India is for everyone and then we say we should allow just Hindus. Wont that be the negetaion for the entire ideology for India. It doesnt matter if he is a hindu or a muslim at the national level.



No you are confusing with the ones moving over from Pak/BD and those born in India.

For me, a Muslim born in India is the same as a Hindu born in India..they are both citizens of the Republic of India. But a Muslim migrating from Pak/BD to India is *not* the same as a Hindu/Sikh migrating from there.

While Hindus/Sikhs born in Pak/BD are entitled to move over to India as per TNT, the same does not apply to a Muslim born in Pak/BD. That is their home, not India.

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## Manas

divya said:


> Well i do agree with that but at the same time we say India is for everyone and then we say we should allow just Hindus. Wont that be the negetaion for the entire ideology for India. It doesnt matter if he is a hindu or a muslim at the national level.



India should give sympathetic hearing to everyone seeking refuge here.And we have been doing that for long time.See number of BDs refugees entered india irrespective of religion during 1971.And till today many BDs mostly muslims enter india illegally in the dead of the night and manges get citizensship status in few years .

*But when it comes to Hindus or Sikhs of Pakistan and BD ,our responsibility is far greater towards them simply because its we who agreed to division of British india on the basis of religion , knowing it well that Pakistan and BD were going to become muslim states where our hindu and sikh brothers would be relegated to 2nd class status. So whenever they seek refuge we have a moral obligation to provide protection in our country.*

Its doesn't matter if we are secular and don't belief in TNT, Pakistan and BD staunchly believes in TNT and are Islamic states .


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## shree835

Ohh&#8230;I was not knowing about that Hindu is not having Voting rights&#8230;.and Pakistani talks about other&#8217;s country issue&#8230;That is funny.


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## Black Widow

KS said:


> No you are confusing with the ones moving over from Pak/BD and those born in India.
> 
> For me, a Muslim born in India is the same as a Hindu born in India..they are both citizens of the Republic of India. But a Muslim migrating from Pak/BD to India is *not* the same as a Hindu/Sikh migrating from there.
> 
> While Hindus/Sikhs born in Pak/BD are entitled to move over to India as per TNT, the same does not apply to a Muslim born in Pak/BD. That is their home, not India.



Agree with you Karthik, But what is this TNT???


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## Manas

Black Widow said:


> Agree with you Karthik, But what is this TNT???



Two000 nationwah theory ,,,

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## Black Widow

Manas said:


> India should give sympathetic hearing to everyone seeking refuge here.And we have been doing that for long time.See number of BDs refugees entered india irrespective of religion during 1971.And till today many BDs mostly muslims enter india illegally in the dead of the night and manges get citizensship status in few years .
> 
> *But when it comes to Hindus or Sikhs of Pakistan and BD ,our responsibility is far greater towards than them simply because its we who agreed to division of British india on the basis of religion , knowing it well that Pakistan and BD were going to become muslim states where our hindu and sikh brothers would be relegated to 2nd class status. So whenever they seek refuge we have a moral obligation to provide protection in our country.*
> 
> Its doesn't matter if we are secular and don't belief in TNT, Pakistan and BD staunchly believes in TNT and are Islamic states .



1971 BD refugees were refugees, not settlers. Refugee: A refugee is a person who is outside their country of origin or habitual residence because they have suffered persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or because they are a member of a persecuted 'social group'. Such a person may be referred to as an 'asylum seeker' *until recognized by the state where she makes her claim*

Where as Hindu and Hindu like religion (Sikh jain Boudh) who couldn't cross the border in 1947,1972 are different than the Muslim refugees of 1971. I think They should be given a choice to come to there mother land. On the same note, if Any Muslim feels that he will be happy at Pakistan, he must be given a chance to settle in pakistan.. 


*Every one deserve second chance. *


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## KS

Black Widow said:


> Agree with you Karthik, But what is this TNT???



Two Nation Theory.

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## Baby Leone

Pakistani Laws & cinstitution provide voting right to everyone who is above 18 age 

soo this zee news should waste their presious time for the betterment of minorities in india who are dying on daily basis in the hands of extremists hindus.


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## jha

harpoon said:


> What were the Hindus thinking staying back in Pakistan in 1947..that they will be treated as equals in an Islamic nation?



True..very True..



fateh71 said:


> Given the ideologies of the two countries, if Indian minorities are ill treated, its indeed a failure for India. By the same token, if Pakistani minorities are ill treated, its a success for Pakistan. So I agree Pakistan is a more successful nation than India. Sad but true.



Nailed it...


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## Black Widow

Mr Javed said:


> Pakistani Laws & cinstitution provide voting right to everyone who is above 18 age
> 
> soo this zee news should waste their presious time for the betterment of minorities in india who are dying on daily basis in the hands of extremists hindus.




Do you mind to read the news first. Some ppl post there reply in hurry, they don't even bother to read the discussion. 

Your view are unwelcome.


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## Black Widow

harpoon said:


> What were the Hindus thinking staying back in Pakistan in 1947..that they will be treated as equals in an Islamic nation?



Kid you need to read history. Pakistan was not an Islamic nation til Zia came into power. Ahmedias were Muslims till Mr Bhutto kick them out of Islam (constitutionally). When Pakistan was made, your leaders played a card, they made a statement saying non Muslim can stay in Pakistan and become a pakistani.

India thought it as big hearted approach of Pakistan and allowed Muslims to live in India.(which Hindu mahasabha was opposing, Hindu mahashabha wanted all Muslims to go to Pakistan as 30% land mass was given to 20-25% Muslims) Muslims grew to 30% of mass in India, non Muslims reduced to 2% of volume in Pakistan. 

Staying of Hindus was worst mistake. They should have came back to there mother land.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Mr Javed said:


> Pakistani Laws & cinstitution provide voting right to everyone who is above 18 age
> 
> soo this zee news should waste their presious time for the betterment of *minorities in india who are dying on daily basis in the hands of extremists hindus*.




Only in Pakistani news .


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## KS

Black Widow said:


> Kid you need to read history. Pakistan was not an Islamic nation til Zia came into power. Ahmedias were Muslims till Mr Bhutto kick them out of Islam (constitutionally). When Pakistan was made, your leaders played a card, they made a statement saying non Muslim can stay in Pakistan and become a pakistani.
> 
> India thought it as big hearted approach of Pakistan and allowed Muslims to live in India.(which Hindu mahasabha was opposing, Hindu mahashabha wanted all Muslims to go to Pakistan as 30% land mass was given to 20-25% Muslims) Muslims grew to 30% of mass in India, non Muslims reduced to 2% of volume in Pakistan.
> 
> Staying of Hindus was worst mistake. They should have came back to there mother land.



You did not get the sarcasm,irony in his post..


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## harpoon

Manas said:


> Two000 nationwah theory ,,,



Which was as disastrous as the other TNT..Trinitrotoluene


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## KS

harpoon said:


> Which was as disastrous as the other TNT..Trinitrotoluene



I don't know about Pak or BD...but it was a blessing in disguise for India.

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## harpoon

KS said:


> I don't know about Pak or BD...but it was a blessing in disguise for India.



How? It should have been a clean cut with Muslims on one side and Hindus on another. India is the only homeland for Hindus like Israel is for Jews, but the sad part of being secular is that India cannot do anything about the oppressed Hindus in other nations like what Isrealis do for Jews.

Indians are very proud that the Muslim population in India is increasing, wait till they reach about 20% of the population and get ready for partition 2.0


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## KS

harpoon said:


> How? It should have been a clean cut with Muslims on one side and Hindus on another. India is the only homeland for Hindus like Israel is for Jews, but the sad part of being secular is that India cannot do anything about the oppressed Hindus in other nations like what Isrealis do for Jews.
> 
> Indians are very proud that the Muslim population in India is increasing, wait till they reach about 20% of the population and get ready for partition 2.0



Now that is a different case you are saying. I agree TNT should have been executed to the last letter. It's execution was wrong. But questioning the theory itself is not correct.


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## harpoon

KS said:


> Now that is a different case you are saying. _I agree TNT should have been executed to the last letter_. It's execution was wrong. But questioning the theory itself is not correct.



And who is responsible for that? Allowing Muslims to stay back in India causes us to lose our international image in front of the world due to events like Gujurat Riots..which is further amplified by some self imposed takedars of Muslims. India is spending millions to keep Jihadis at bay and due to votebank politics good for nothing leaders are elected to lead us and efficient leaders like Modi cannot come to nation front bcs the Muslim minority does not like him. Muslims bcs of their attitude is the most backward community in India, causing GoI to give out freebies including quotas which is causing friction. So Yeah TNT was a disaster for India..either it should have been a clean cut or no cut at all.


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## Nelson

Where is superkaif? He was about to give the link supporting his claim. He was claiming that the Gujarati Muslims migrated to Pak from India!! 

I guess I have to file a missing report LOL

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## harpoon

Nelson said:


> Where is superkaif? He was about to give the link supporting his claim. *He was claiming that the Gujarati Muslims migrated to Pak from India!! *
> 
> I guess I have to file a missing report LOL



There are no trains to burn in Pakistan.

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## oFFbEAT

harpoon said:


> How? It should have been a clean cut with Muslims on one side and Hindus on another. India is the only homeland for Hindus like Israel is for Jews, but the sad part of being secular is that India cannot do anything about the oppressed Hindus in other nations like what Isrealis do for Jews.
> 
> Indians are very proud that the Muslim population in India is increasing, wait till they reach about 20% of the population and get ready for partition 2.0


You are right!
Every sane person will agree that, *the very purpose of dividing a country on the basis of religion is lost*.....*when people from different religion are allowed to stay in the respective countries.*
This did nothing else apart from keeping the door to *perpetual violence* open.

Once the Muslims demanded separation of India on the basis of religion.....there is no logical reason to believe that they won't demand that again.........

Therefore, a very *unlikely* but *judicious* solution is that..........

We should send all the Muslims of India to either Pakistan or Bangladesh(depending on where they want to go) AND take back all the Hindus from Pakistan and Bangladesh.

I am not saying this out of hatred towards Muslims.........BUT this is the *most rational way to avoid future conflicts and stop further division of India.......*

*India should take the responsibility of rehabilitating all the Hindus sent back from these countries and similarly, Pakistan and Bangladesh should take the responsibility to rehabilitate all the Muslims sent back from India.*

This may not sound too impressive at first.....specially when you think about the transportation,rehabilitation costs etc. BUT in the long Run this will save India and also the other countries from a hell lot of things.....


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## StandForInsaf

oFFbEAT said:


> You are right!
> Every sane person will agree that, *the very purpose of dividing a country on the basis of religion is lost*.....*when people from different religion are allowed to stay in the respective countries.*
> This did nothing else apart from keeping the door to *perpetual violence* open.
> 
> Once the Muslims demanded separation of India on the basis of religion.....there is no logical reason to believe that they won't demand that again.........
> 
> Therefore, a very *unlikely* but *judicious* solution is that..........
> 
> We should send all the Muslims of India to either Pakistan or Bangladesh(depending on where they want to go) AND take back all the Hindus from Pakistan and Bangladesh.
> 
> I am not saying this out of hatred towards Muslims.........BUT this is the *most rational way to avoid future conflicts and stop further division of India.......*
> 
> *India should take the responsibility of rehabilitating all the Hindus sent back from these countries and similarly, Pakistan and Bangladesh should take the responsibility to rehabilitate all the Muslims sent back from India.*
> 
> This may not sound too impressive at first.....specially when you think about the transportation,rehabilitation costs etc. BUT in the long Run this will save India and also the other countries from a hell lot of things.....



Absolutely wrong, purpose of partition was that majority in Pakistan was not sure to their rights in possible future scenario , we have not taken theka of Indian Muslims , Pakistani citizens are superior for Pakistan.


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## KS

harpoon said:


> And who is responsible for that? Allowing Muslims to stay back in India causes us to lose our international image in front of the world due to events like Gujurat Riots..which is further amplified by some self imposed takedars of Muslims. India is spending millions to keep Jihadis at bay and due to votebank politics good for nothing leaders are elected to lead us and efficient leaders like Modi cannot come to nation front bcs the Muslim minority does not like him. Muslims bcs of their attitude is the most backward community in India, causing GoI to give out freebies including quotas which is causing friction. So Yeah TNT was a disaster for India..either it should have been a clean cut or no cut at all.



Mate you are just explaining how the TNT should be have been finished and not left in a limbo like it is now. I agree with that. I'm just saying there can be no question of doubting the existence of TNT. It was for the good of India.

In essence we both are saying the same thing.


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## harpoon

StandForInsaf said:


> Absolutely wrong, purpose of partition was that majority in Pakistan was not sure to their rights in possible future scenario , *we have not taken theka of Indian Muslims* , Pakistani citizens are superior for Pakistan.



Are you sure brother. You people are the first one to raise the cause of Indian Muslims...All I am saying is that take this to another level and keep door open for all Muslims from Indian Sub Continent, while we will keep door open for all Hindus from Indian Sub Continent.

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------




oFFbEAT said:


> Once the Muslims demanded separation of India on the basis of religion.....there is no logical reason to believe that they won't demand that again.........



Ofcourse they will..Wait till they reach the critical mass of 20-25% of the Indian population (same as in 1947) and we will have to face partition 2.0

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## StandForInsaf

harpoon said:


> Are you sure brother. You people are the first one to raise the cause of Indian Muslims...All I am saying is that take this to another level and keep door open for all Muslims from Indian Sub Continent, while we will keep door open for all Hindus from Indian Sub Continent.



Pakistan is for people of Pakistan , and India for Indian why should we keep accepting migrants always , migration phase is history now those who migrated are now part of Pakistan , now we have to focus on development and justice.


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## harpoon

StandForInsaf said:


> Pakistan is for people of Pakistan , and India for Indian why should we keep accepting migrants always , migration phase is history now those who migrated are now part of Pakistan , now we have to focus on development and justice.



That means you don't believe in TNT..You cannot be the flag bearer of Indian Muslims and at the same time close doors in front of those who wants to migrate to the "Land of the Pure'.

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## StandForInsaf

harpoon said:


> That means you don't believe in TNT..You cannot be the flag bearer of Indian Muslims and at the same time close doors in front of those who wants to migrate to the "Land of the Pure'.



Well, i said about mass migrations , those who come according to law should be welcomed , we only favor what is right , Indian Muslims are the land owners in their own country not in our country , if they have problems they should ask their government if unable to get then may be get their separate country why involve us in the saga ?


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## harpoon

StandForInsaf said:


> Well, i said about mass migrations , those who come according to law should be welcomed , we only favor what is right , Indian Muslims are the land owners in their own country not in our country , if they have problems they should ask their government if unable to get then may be *get their separate country why involve us in the saga ?*



Bcs by default Pakistan was formed as a safe heaven for Indian Muslims through TNT. So Pakistan should open doors to all Muslims of Indian Sub Continent and we will take back your minorities including Hindus.

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## StandForInsaf

harpoon said:


> *Bcs by default Pakistan was formed as a safe heaven for Indian Muslims* through TNT. So Pakistan should open doors to all Muslims of Indian Sub Continent and we will take back your minorities including Hindus.



These indian muslims were locals of the area who formed Pakistan ,further more
As i said migration phase was 47 to 50 maybe we accepted few after that also , its over now. we have enough population don't require more.

If Indian Muslims want their homeland get one in their own land we don't have *theka *of every one.


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## Backbencher

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> most of the Sikhs in Pakistan I've met were virulently anti-india.....especially the ones in Lahore and Pindi


 
Most of the Sikhs ive met in India were basically anti pakistan........especially the one in Amritsar and Chandigarh. 

Aur ye virulently kya hota hai ??

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## Black Widow

StandForInsaf said:


> These indian muslims were locals of the area who formed Pakistan ,further more
> As i said migration phase was 47 to 50 maybe we accepted few after that also , its over now. we have enough population don't require more.
> If Indian Muslims want their homeland get one in their own land we don't have *theka *of every one.



And your countrymen talk bout Islam and Ummat, you are not ready to take your brothers back, you have no right to talk about Islam


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## StandForInsaf

Black Widow said:


> And your countrymen talk bout Islam and Ummat, you are not ready to take your brothers back, you have no right to talk about Islam



We will support them as UMMAT sure but they must be owner of their own land and resources and not to give up their due rights.


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## Nelson

Man....


Anyone seen superkaif??? 


I'm worried 

P.S. 
Why you guys are discussing about sending Muslims to Pak? The Pakistanis who come to India on tourist visa, don't want to go back to Pak, let alone the Indians. No Indian would like to go. On the other hand, Pakistanis go missing in India!

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## blood

Nelson said:


> Man....
> 
> 
> *Anyone seen superkaif???
> *
> 
> I'm worried
> 
> P.S.
> Why you guys are discussing about sending Muslims to Pak? The Pakistanis who come to India on tourist visa, don't want to go back to Pak, let alone the Indians. No Indian would like to go. On the other hand, Pakistanis go missing in India!




he has been trying really hard to search for an article on gujrati muslims migrating to pakistan on google , once he gets one he will be back .

the muslims in india very well know what are the current conditions in pakistan , they won't commit such an blunder of migrating to pakistan .

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## Manas

StandForInsaf said:


> Absolutely wrong, purpose of partition was that majority in Pakistan was not sure to their rights in possible future scenario , we have not taken theka of Indian Muslims , Pakistani citizens are superior for Pakistan.



Perhaps you don't know that its indian muslims from UP/Bihar with guidance of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan of Aligarh muslim university who first created the idea of Pakistan. Muslims of Punjab and Sindh joined much later in the movement.

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## true_indian

blood said:


> he has been trying really hard to search for an article on gujrati muslims migrating to pakistan on google , once he gets one he will be back .
> 
> the muslims in india very well know what are the current conditions in pakistan , they won't commit such an blunder of migrating to pakistan .



Of course people of India does move to Pakistan. What u guys are on? We have a splendid example of Mr.Dawood Ibrahim. Pakistan only accept virtuous people like him. He was wronged by India. Interpol is wrong, heck whole world is wrong. Indians especially are always wrong. May be 'Superkaif' could show up after all.

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## StandForInsaf

Manas said:


> Perhaps you don't know that its indian muslims from UP/Bihar with guidance of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan of Aligarh muslim university who first created the idea of Pakistan. Muslims of Punjab and Sindh joined much later in the movement.



UP people who wanted to come had a chance in 47 to 50 (they mostly live in karachi and hyd these days) , migration is over now.
All i said is that migration and partition is done and over we dont allow mass population migrations now.

Indian Muslims should make their own new country rather then coming here , we don't stop who comes/goes legally.


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## Manas

StandForInsaf said:


> UP people who wanted to come had a chance in 47 to 50 (they mostly live in karachi and hyd these days) , migration is over now.
> All i said is that migration and partition is done and over we dont allow mass population migrations now.
> 
> Indian Muslims should make their own new country rather then coming here , we don't stop who comes/goes legally.



Since there is a already a country created for the Muslims of Sub cont ,no chance of another one. The old one will be properly made use of first.

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## nalandapride

StandForInsaf said:


> UP people who wanted to come had a chance in 47 to 50 (they mostly live in karachi and hyd these days) , migration is over now.
> All i said is that migration and partition is done and over we dont allow mass population migrations now.
> 
> *Indian Muslims should make their own new country rather then coming here *, we don't stop who comes/goes legally.



I can understand the immaturity of you. Many Indian Muslim people didn't migrate to Pakistan because Deobandi were Against Pakistan and Maulana Madani persuaded many people not to migrate to Pakistan. The Biharis living in Bangladesh are mainly Shias. And there is a case of Azim Premji's father who refused to migrate to Pakistan even Jinnah requested him to do so. 

And you don't want new refugees because Karachi-Hyderabad itself got ethnically tensed after their migration. So, they got their new Muslim homeland but now same people live in the fear of Target Killings.

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## true_indian

StandForInsaf said:


> UP people who wanted to come had a chance in 47 to 50 (they mostly live in karachi and hyd these days) , migration is over now.
> All i said is that migration and partition is done and over we dont allow mass population migrations now.
> 
> Indian Muslims should make their own new country rather then coming here , we don't stop who comes/goes legally.



I guess you should explain that to your fellow countrymen, more than us. They seem to not accept your theory. Its funny when they try to speak for Indian Muslims considering India is expected to have more Muslims than Pakistan itself.

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## oFFbEAT

truth said:


> Be careful mate your comment is indirectly proving "Kashmiri youth's point of view"



Not at all mate..... actually you missed my point completely.

*Firstly*, You are confusing between the situation of a *disputed area* to the situation of the *whole country.....*

BUT here, we are *NOT* talking about *Hindus of any disputed area in Pakistan*.....we are taking about * Pakistani Hindus in general*. 

Indian Muslims in general have voting rights and all the rights a citizen should have.......
BUT Pakistani Hindus in general,do not have voting rights.......they are not regarded as citizens of Pakistan.

In this regard, what I suggested is that.......If Pakistanis Hindus *don't get their rights*....then only they should *fight for their separate country*........if you give them their due rights and accept them as citizens of Pakistan, they shouldn't look for separation............

*Secondly*, in case of *KASHMIR*, the situation is just the *OPPOSITE*......*The Indian Govt. is willing to give them all the rights and accept them an Indian citizens*.....*BUT, their real motive is complete separation, not rights*.............and India cannot give in to the kashmiri Muslims demand to divide India on the basis of religion again as *India has already lost considerable portion of its landmass due to this reason previously........ *

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## harpoon

StandForInsaf said:


> UP people who wanted to come had a chance in 47 to 50 (they mostly live in karachi and hyd these days) , migration is over now.
> *All i said is that migration and partition is done and over we dont allow mass population migrations now.
> *
> Indian Muslims should make their own new country rather then coming here , we don't stop who comes/goes legally.



Why you want to stress on this point again and again when the truth is as clear as daylight that TNT created Pakistan as a safe haven for Muslims of Indian Subcontinent. If you agree that Pakistan's basis is the 2 nation theory then you should also abide by it..by keeping doors open of all Muslims from Indian Subcontinent.

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## Nelson

harpoon said:


> Why you want to stress on this point again and again when the truth is as clear as daylight that TNT created Pakistan as a safe haven for Muslims of Indian Subcontinent. If you agree that Pakistan's basis is the 2 nation theory then you should also abide by it..by keeping doors open of all Muslims from Indian Subcontinent.


He'll reply the same thing again. i.e. Blah blah blah blah bla bla bla


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## StandForInsaf

harpoon said:


> Why you want to stress on this point again and again when the truth is as clear as daylight that TNT created Pakistan as a safe haven for Muslims of Indian Subcontinent. If you agree that Pakistan's basis is the 2 nation theory then you should also abide by it..by keeping doors open of all Muslims from Indian Subcontinent.



Well every one can come not only Muslims , Hindus and Christians also but according to immigration laws as per constitution of Pakistan says.


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## harpoon

StandForInsaf said:


> Well every one can come not only Muslims , Hindus and Christians also but according to immigration laws as per constitution of Pakistan says.



Yeah right...you people abided by the immigration laws when Muslims migrated to Pakistan in 1947 and you sent Pakistani Hindus packing to India during the same period.

---------- Post added at 07:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------




Nelson said:


> He'll reply the same thing again. i.e. Blah blah blah blah bla bla bla



After talking big about Ummah and acting as the self appointed takedar of Indian Muslims, now they are on backfoot when the core of the matter about future Muslim migration is discussed.... Hypocrites.

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## StandForInsaf

harpoon said:


> Yeah right...you people abided by the immigration laws when Muslims migrated to Pakistan in 1947 and you sent Pakistani Hindus packing to India during the same period.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> After talking big about Ummah and acting as the self appointed takedar of Indian Muslims, now they are on backfoot when the core of the matter about future Muslim migration is discussed.... Hypocrites.



We support oppressed Indian Muslims and we will continue to support them to get their right , at the same time i would says Pakistani Hindus should also be given their due rights if some one is oppressed government should help them with justice.

Peace.


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## nalandapride

StandForInsaf said:


> Well every one can come not only Muslims , Hindus and Christians also but according to immigration laws as per constitution of Pakistan says.





StandForInsaf said:


> *We support oppressed Indian Muslims*  Joke  and we will continue to support them to get their right , at the same time i would says Pakistani Hindus should also be given their due rights if some one is oppressed government should help them with justice.
> Peace.



*Dude I am a Bihari and after seeing the condition of Biharis in Bangladesh I feel pity about them because I share identical ethnicity with them.* You Pakistanis are hypocrites, you will cry foul for Indian Muslims but nobody in Pakistan ever discuss about the sufferings of these people which you can actually help.You have place for Afghan refugees but don't have place for them. Living without citizenship for 40 yrs and entire generation grew up facing humiliation. Some even tried to enter Pakistan illegally via India and got killed by Indians and Pakistan soldiers. And I also know the views of Naseerullah Babar for them. If some are accepted in Pakistan, they are welcomed with bomb blasts and black flags.

*Support Indian Muslims to do propaganda and use Biharis to do propaganda, that's your reality. You don't care about anyone.*

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## harpoon

StandForInsaf said:


> *We support oppressed Indian Muslims and we will continue to support them to get their right *, at the same time i would says Pakistani Hindus should also be given their due rights if some one is oppressed government should help them with justice.
> 
> Peace.



Thats called Takedari which you denied some posts ago. If you are so much concerned about the oppression of Indian Muslims we can gladly sent them over to Pakistan where thy can breathe fresh air of freedom...can you accept them ,if not stop acting as the self appointed guardian of Indian Muslims.

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## LaBong

Mostly north Indian middle class Muslims migrated to Pakistan. They worked hard and made Karachi what it is now. The migration affected the Indian Muslims community pretty hard, the educated middle class wasn't there, the leadership was assumed by clerics.


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## blood

StandForInsaf said:


> *We support oppressed Indian Muslims and we will continue to support them to get their right *, at the same time i would says Pakistani Hindus should also be given their due rights if some one is oppressed government should help them with justice.
> 
> Peace.



and how are you going to help them by waging a jihad or war against india , you never care for muslims in pakistan but you seem to be the most concerned when it comes to indian muslims , can you tell me , why is it so ?


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## mahabharath

blood said:


> and how are you going to help them by waging a jihad or war against india , you never care for muslims in pakistan but you seem to be the most concerned when it comes to indian muslims , can you tell me , why is it so ?



Unfortunately, he can't tell. Even after 60 years of partition, pity that they still need to justify the creation of their country. Only way they think they can justify it is by highlighting even silliest issues and projecting them as monstrous sufferings of Indian muslims hence justify the creation of their country. 

At the same time, they create slavery situation in their own country for the minorities and suppress them, hate them, force them in a way that either they have to live like pride muslims or live like slaves for whole generations.

Sorry, this is too harsh but the fact.


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## oFFbEAT

StandForInsaf said:


> Well, i said about mass migrations , those who come according to law should be welcomed , we only favor what is right , Indian Muslims are the land owners in their own country not in our country , if they have problems they should ask their government if unable to get then may be *get their separate country *why involve us in the saga ?





StandForInsaf said:


> UP people who wanted to come had a chance in 47 to 50 (they mostly live in karachi and hyd these days) , migration is over now.
> All i said is that migration and partition is done and over we dont allow mass population migrations now.
> 
> *Indian Muslims should make their own new country* rather then coming here , we don't stop who comes/goes legally.



So these comments(above).....instigating Indian Muslims are not deleted......

BUT when we reply to their posts using *their own logic* to suggest that *Pakistani Hindus should fight for their rights and freedom*.......then our posts are deleted.

*In PDF we can't even use Pakistani logic ????*

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## Black Widow

StandForInsaf said:


> UP people who wanted to come had a chance in 47 to 50 (they mostly live in karachi and hyd these days) , migration is over now.
> All i said is that migration and partition is done and over we dont allow mass population migrations now.
> 
> *Indian Muslims should make their own new country rather then coming here , we don't stop who comes/goes legally.*



Here come something unexpected. My dear friend, Once we gave 30% of our land, Not again. Neither Indian Muslim will ask for it nor we will give it..

if something like this will asked for, It will be worst thing mankind would have ever seen...


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## NeutralCitizen

Indian Muslims seem to prefer to stay on India, Pakistan should protect Minorities, the day a hindu becomes leader of pakistan will be a day.


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## KS

NeutralCitizen said:


> Indian Muslims seem to prefer to stay on India, Pakistan should protect Minorities, the day a hindu becomes leader of pakistan will be a day.



Do you realize that is forbidden by Pakistani constitution ?


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## NeutralCitizen

KS said:


> Do you realize that is forbidden by Pakistani constitution ?



Things can change overtime.


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## KS

NeutralCitizen said:


> Things can change overtime.



When the Pakistani Hindus are fleeing to India escaping persecution and their population falling with each passing day in Pakistan, sure things can change.


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## Avatar

NeutralCitizen said:


> Indian Muslims seem to prefer to stay on India, Pakistan should protect Minorities, the day a hindu becomes leader of pakistan will be a day.



I doubt we will ever witness such a day. I'm sure there are people in Pakistan whose numbers exceed the minority who wish to see the minority extinct and Islamize Pakistan 100% irrespective of how much Islam is actually followed. If I was you I would give up any hopes of a secular Pakistan since it contradicts the very idea of Pakistan.

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## harpoon

Black Widow said:


> Here come something unexpected. My dear friend, Once we gave 30% of our land, Not again. Neither Indian Muslim will ask for it nor we will give it..
> 
> if something like this will asked for, It will be worst thing mankind would have ever seen...



Its a fact that Muslims can never live as a responsible minority. So sooner or latter get ready for partition 2.0

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------




NeutralCitizen said:


> Things can change overtime.



You understand that even Ahmedi Muslims are not considered Muslims in Pakistan causing Pakistan's lone Nobel prize winner Abdus Salam who was an Ahmedi to leave the country heart broken.


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## venu309

What Pakistan does to their citizens should not bother us, immaterial of their religious beliefs, as it their country & their rules. We should worry only about our country & our citizens. The world knows how we treat our minorities that is why we are labelled largest democracy & treated with respect. Also when the two nation theory was declared & offered our Indian Muslims chose to live in India and accept her as their motherland, not knowing how their future may turn out to be. Our constitution & our country has supported them and has not broken their trust, this makes us proud to be an Indian. If anybody wants to migrate to India (immaterial of their religion), there is a legal process, they can go through that & do it legally. Of course if there is a genocide like what happened in 1971, then it would be a different matter altogether.


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## Adnan Faruqi

NeutralCitizen said:


> Things can change overtime.



Only change one can see is Wahhabi take over just like Taliban rule.


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## StandForInsaf

Black Widow said:


> Here come something unexpected. My dear friend, Once we gave 30% of our land, Not again. Neither Indian Muslim will ask for it nor we will give it..
> 
> if something like this will asked for, It will be worst thing mankind would have ever seen...



Sorry this is our land we live here you haven't given us any thing , they live on their land so that one is their , don't confuse things.


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## KS

venu309 said:


> What Pakistan does to their citizens should not bother us, immaterial of their religious beliefs, as it their country & their rules. We should worry only about our country & our citizens. The world knows how we treat our minorities that is why we are labelled largest democracy & treated with respect. Also when the two nation theory was declared & offered our Indian Muslims chose to live in India and accept her as their motherland, not knowing how their future may turn out to be. Our constitution & our country has supported them and has not broken their trust, this makes us proud to be an Indian. If anybody wants to migrate to India (immaterial of their religion), there is a legal process, they can go through that & do it legally. Of &#8216;course if there is a genocide like what happened in 1971, then it would be a different matter altogether.



Immaterial of religion ?...With due respect, that's BS...It is MATERIAL on religion. When the leaders of this country agreed to divide my motherland based on religion, the moment this country was divided based on religion....India had assumed the moral responsibility of being the home of the Hindus in the sub-continent.

The Hindus of Pakistan are only exercising that responsibility and it is incumbent upon us to fulfill that.

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## Windjammer

*
Somewhere I once read that a human mind is the most dangerous thing, looking at the deadly and destructive inventions created by mankind, one is inclined to agree with the claim, however the same mind becomes even more dangerous and vile when it flips and sinks to despicable levels. It's really frightening to think that in a moment of fury what causes a person to pull out a knife or a gun and finish someone's life, even worse how mankind sinks to such levels of depravity that there is no distinction between humans and animals. !! Following are two such disturbing stories about these sick individuals. *

*A 40-year-old man has been arrested for raping his minor daughter here, police said Saturday.*

Madan Pandey, who worked as a domestic help in R.K. Puram area of south Delhi, was arrested Friday.

"Pandey raped his daughter, aged 16, Friday evening when his wife was out of the house for shopping," a police officer said. "He then threatened his daughter of dire consequences if she complained to anyone".

However, the girl reported the incident to her mother, who went to police.

In her complaint, Pandey's wife said that her husband was behaving in an obscene manner with their daughter for the past few days.

Man held for raping daughter

Three persons have been arrested by West Delhi police for allegedly raping and murdering a four-year-old girl in Kirti Nagar area. Police said the accused had raped and strangled the child on January 5 before dumping her body in a drain.

The accused were arrested on January 11. The body was noticed by a passerby on January 5. Police took the body to a nearby hospital, where an autopsy revealed that she was raped and sodomised by more than one person. The accused  Jawahar (30), Raj Kumar (24), and Birbal (26)  work as labourers at a construction site in Ramesh Nagars B-block area.

The first to be arrested was Jawahar, from Bihar. At his instance, police arrested the other two accused from Mayapuri area. Jawahar, who was known to the victims family, had taken the child out with her parents permission. A case of rape and murder has been registered against the three.
Three held for raping, killing 4-year-old - Indian Express


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## fd24

This man must be sick - should be removed from society - so sad. What kind of animal does this to minors. Sad wherever it happens. Needs to be put away and throw the keys away

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## lem34

Sad we have such evil people in our society. They full force of the law should be applied to them

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## Rafi

^^^^^
Totally revolting, these people are not even human, to do that to his own daughter.

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## Windjammer

Rafi said:


> ^^^^^
> Totally revolting, these people are not even human, to do that to his own daughter.



One can open a dozen daily threads on those cave dwellers and their barbarism but in a modern society such heinous crimes are almost unheard of and the sad reality is former is given more attention than latter.


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## Jango

what did he get from doing this to a young child??

Man should be hanged to death i say.

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## fd24

^^^^^^^^^

Never heard anything so disgusting in my life - the guy should be made an example of - hang him by the you know whats...

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## Karachiite

WTF how do you even do that to a 4 year old, he's her fckin father ffs


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## Windjammer

*Nashik rape victim succumbs to burn injuries*

Nashik: A day after three minor boys raped a 14-year-old girl and set her on fire, the victim succumbed to her injuries on Thursday. 

The victim was yesterday admitted at Bytco Hospital with 97 percent burn injuries. 



The accused trio forcefully gained entry into the house of the 14-year-old victim at Aringale Farm in Nashik Road area when her parents were away and took turns to rape her, police said, adding the boys then set her ablaze.

Three teenagers were arrested on charges of raping a minor girl at her residence before setting her on fire in which she suffered 96 percent burns, police said on Wednesday. 

The accused have been booked under section 307 (attempt to murder) and section 376 (rape) of the IPC. 

The names of the victim as well as the accused have been withheld by the police. 

Meanwhile, a juvenile court has remanded the trio to a remand home. 

http://zeenews.**********/news/maharashtra/nashik-rape-victim-succumbs-to-burn-injuries_729328.html

_Which is the worse, a father turning into a complete animal, or some sick scum bags committing the heinous crime with an infant or 14 year old school kids descending to such depravity ???.....one thing for sure, there is something seriously wrong with this society._


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## venu309

KS said:


> Immaterial of religion ?...With due respect, that's BS...It is MATERIAL on religion. When the leaders of this country agreed to divide my motherland based on religion, the moment this country was divided based on religion....India had assumed the moral responsibility of being the home of the Hindus in the sub-continent.
> 
> The Hindus of Pakistan are only exercising that responsibility and it is incumbent upon us to fulfill that.



First & foremost it was the Pakistani leaders who wanted TNT & carved Pakistan out of India. They still subscribe to the TNT & the result is there for all to see. Secondly what do they offer to the Indian Muslims more than lip service? I'm not against the Hindus migrating to India, but I'm against people of any religion just entering India en masse like the BD illegal migrants. All I'm saying is that there is a legal process, which makes a background check etc through which everyone who want to migrate has to go. We cannot blindly accept them just because they declare themselves to be Hindus.


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## aakash_2410

Hindus account for a little over one percent of the population of Pakistan.

However, the community claims that even this number is dwindling because girls are being kidnapped, converted to Islam and forcibly married to Muslim men.

Human rights organisations warn that such incidents are on the rise and is urging the government to take action to protect the country's minorities.



Source: BBC News - Pakistani Hindus fear forced conversion of young girls

And then Pakistanis have audacity to talk about Indian Muslims. Some people would say 'This is justified since Pakistan was created in the name of Islam so there is no room for minorities.'


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## Abu Zolfiqar

venu309 said:


> First & foremost it was the Pakistani leaders who wanted TNT & carved Pakistan out of India. They still subscribe to the TNT & the result is there for all to see. Secondly what do they offer to the Indian Muslims more than lip service? I'm not against the Hindus migrating to India, but I'm against people of any religion just entering India en masse like the BD illegal migrants. All I'm saying is that there is a legal process, which makes a background check etc through which everyone who want to migrate has to go. We cannot blindly accept them just because they declare themselves to be Hindus.


 
a couple things


first of all, india wasnt even a country until August, 1947....anyone who claims otherwise is delusional and lying to themselves. 


secondly, I've already highlighted the realities of many (perhaps all?) Pakistani citizens who adhere to hindu religion.....the indians would consider them ''dalits''.....''untouchables'' 

they would be treated worse than slaves in hindustan, where caste-system is always hard at work not just behind the scenes --but even overtly.

many indians wouldnt even drink from the same fountain, eat from the same plate --or even sit on the same level as these people





i always laugh at these indians when they try to pull the ''moral high horse'' card


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## Abu Zolfiqar

aakash_2410 said:


> Hindus account for a little over one percent of the population of Pakistan.
> 
> However, the community claims that even this number is dwindling because girls are being kidnapped, converted to Islam and forcibly married to Muslim men.




such incidents have taken place but they are extremely isolated ones.....


and 1% of 180 million is still a sizable number. Remember that the Muslim communities tend to reproduce more than the hindus -so numbers will obviously become skewed....doesnt take rocket science





> And then Pakistanis have audacity to talk about Indian Muslims. Some people would say 'This is justified since Pakistan was created in the name of Islam so there is no room for minorities.'



right, no room for minorities


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## Trisonics

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a couple things
> 
> 
> first of all, india wasnt even a country until August, 1947....anyone who claims otherwise is delusional and lying to themselves.
> 
> 
> secondly, I've already highlighted the realities of many (perhaps all?) Pakistani citizens who adhere to hindu religion.....the indians would consider them ''dalits''.....''untouchables''
> 
> they would be treated worse than slaves in hindustan, where caste-system is always hard at work not just behind the scenes --but even overtly.
> 
> many indians wouldnt even drink from the same fountain, eat from the same plate --or even sit on the same level as these people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i always laugh at these indians when they try to pull the ''moral high horse'' card



Inspite of all that many want to run out of PAK  and settle in India?


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## aakash_2410

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> such incidents have taken place but they are extremely isolated ones.....
> 
> 
> and 1% of 180 million is still a sizable number. Remember that the Muslim communities tend to reproduce more than the hindus -so numbers will obviously become skewed....doesnt take rocket science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> right, no room for minorities



I hope that such incidents are isolated ones but the numbers show otherwise. Like 5-6 years before I used to hear the number of 4-5million Hindus but now apparently they're barely 2 millions.

Plus yeah Muslims on general tend to reproduce more than Hindus but the total number has fallen down as well.






ans Sikhs aren't in much better state either and there're only couple of thousands Sikhs protecting Gurudwaras. Let Hindus reach couple thousands then they would be treated the same.

And people like Aryan_B has audacity to mention Gujarat riots. In Gujarat riots so many Hindus died as well even though they are in overwhelming majority. Can you imagine in Pakistan these poor Hindus slaughtering Muslims women and children returning from Hajj? That's what HAPPENED in Gujarat which caused the riots.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

there isnt much time for bibble babble............its indians who have audacity to come to PAKISTAN defence forum in the first place to talk about discrimination of this person and that person. 

when it comes to discrimination, communal violence and caste-ism --- look no farther than within your own borders. We have our problems and we acknowledge them. I cant speak for everyone, but I assume most people hope for communal harmony in Pakistan --as it is in our national interests.

judiciary and cricket are 2 totally different things in Pakistan -- though both are highly regarded.....and both these entities (among many others) have seen major contribution by Pakistanis who practice hinduism



Aryan_B brought up Gujrat because unfortunately many of you people have to be reminded that you have your own house to clean up before pointing fingers at ours. He could have gone a step further and talked about what's going on in places like Orissa


so lets just both accept that both countries have a ways to go to ensure equal freedoms, equal rights, bla bla

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## aakash_2410

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> there isnt much time for bibble babble............its indians who have audacity to come to PAKISTAN defence forum in the first place to talk about discrimination of this person and that person.
> 
> when it comes to discrimination, communal violence and caste-ism --- look no farther than within your own borders. We have our problems and we acknowledge them. I cant speak for everyone, but I assume most people hope for communal harmony in Pakistan --as it is in our national interests.
> 
> judiciary and cricket are 2 totally different things in Pakistan -- though both are highly regarded.....and both these entities (among many others) have seen major contribution by Pakistanis who practice hinduism
> 
> 
> 
> Aryan_B brought up Gujrat because unfortunately many of you people have to be reminded that you have your own house to clean up before pointing fingers at ours. He could have gone a step further and talked about what's going on in places like Orissa
> 
> 
> so lets just both accept that both countries have a ways to go to ensure equal freedoms, equal rights, bla bla



Good that you bring it up. Not to forget it is out boys who keep this forum alive.  and I'm not discrimination. )

Ohh I'm not saying communal violence does not exist in India at all. and as you say most people in Pakistan want for communal harmony then why does such things happen? and why no one opposes them? 

Yes we do have our own house to be cleaned up and we know that. By the way communal violence (not more than 3-4 times in 60 years) in the heat of the moment when religious tension is so high is different thing and systematic ethnic cleansing of religious minorities is totally different. You don't even have big enough minorities to resist such things.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

aakash_2410 said:


> Good that you bring it up. Not to forget it is out boys who keep this forum alive.  and I'm not discrimination. )
> 
> Ohh I'm not saying communal violence does not exist in India at all. and as you say most people in Pakistan want for communal harmony then why does such things happen? and why no one opposes them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes we do have our own house to be cleaned up and we know that.* By the way communal violence (not more than 3-4 times in 60 years) in the heat of the moment when religious tension is so high is different thing and systematic ethnic cleansing of religious minorities is totally different. You don't even have big enough minorities to resist such things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you ought to stop next time and just focus on the bold-faced part and go no further
> 
> 
> oh by the way, Turkey is 99% Muslim. So just because there are MUCH more Muslims than non-Muslims is that an indicator that they discriminate?
> 
> What about Malaysia? Azerbaijan? Syria?
> 
> 
> and 3-4 times in 6 decades is enough; we're talking THOUSANDS of lives here.........I'm glad that despite communal situations we ourselves have seen, we havent had such large-scale massacres and mob-fuelled violence on anywhere remotely near the same scale as in india
> 
> in fact, if Pakistanis were smarter --we'd learn from the mistakes and blunders made next door. Communal harmony is the worst thing for social and moral fabric of society.....
> 
> 
> 
> oh and one last thing --- I've been seeing many minority groups politically active...more so now than ever before. By being politically active, it means they are INVOLVED. Not left out in the dark.
Click to expand...


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## mahabharath

Pakistanis just love to compare apples with oranges. Persecution that minorities facing in Pakistan is incomparable to any country in the world..leave India.





Can you imagine anything like this happen in any country in the world except Pakistan?

All that you can reference is, silly quotes like muslims not getting housing in bandra, blah blah. even that housing thing too, even non-veg person can also not get housing in certain areas in India. It is not muslim specific. 

I was watching video of some mentally retarded person other day. He was saying there is a old woman in India who is a muslim but living with sikh name and eagerly waiting to meet pakistani soldiers.... and he was telling that with full of drama and audience were getting so emotional listening to that retard and clapping...what in the world are they living...and such a retards dare to compare Indian minorities with Pakistani minorities..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

as far as i know, theres only 1 (well maybe another country beginning with an ''I'') in which apartheidism exists and is accepted by the society


again, LMAO. 


3,000 killed in a matter of just a few days and the killers still on the loose; and they talk about communal issues in Pakistan


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## EastWest

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> as far as i know, theres only 1 (well maybe another country beginning with an ''I'') in which apartheidism exists and is accepted by the society
> 
> 
> again, LMAO.
> 
> 
> 3,000 killed in a matter of just a few days and the killers still on the loose; and they talk about communal issues in Pakistan



75% central funds for Gujarat minority students

Do u have any such programmes in ur country ???

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## KS

Pakistani Hindus were idealists who thought every religion is like theirs and they will be treated as equals in an Islamic republic. Now they are learning it is not through the hard way.

They should come back to their spiritual motherland, India, and start anew without the fear of persecution or oppression.

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## SHAMK9

KS said:


> Pakistani Hindus were idealists who thought every religion is like theirs and they will be treated as equals in an Islamic republic. Nowthey are learning it is not through the hard way.
> 
> They should come back to their spiritual motherland, India, and start anew without the fear of persecution or oppression.


oh, they think very differently  good luck convincing deepak perwani to do that, he is the most patriotic pakistani ever

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## KS

SHAMK9 said:


> oh, they think very differently  good luck convincing deepak perwani to do that, he is the most patriotic pakistani ever



Looks good for camera.

Anyway the reality is Hindus will never be treated as equal in an Islamic republic (when Shia and Ahmedi itself are not being treated properly where does the Hindu stand ?) and a significant population of the Hindu community in Pakistan would move to India (their spiritual motherland) at the first opportunity and our doors are always open for them.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 3,000 killed in a matter of just a few days and the killers still on the loose; and they talk about communal issues in Pakistan



LMAO ?....that is not enough.

post the facts not the green urdu media propaganda.

It's 749 Muslims and 310 hindus in a riot which was started by a Muslim mob burning alive 60 Hindu pilgrims mostly women and children.

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## Rafi

The Pakistani Hindus are our people - our brothers and sisters - if they feel pain - we feel it also, some of this problem is when young girls fall in love with Muslim men, and convert - their families are hurt, and then show their anger, I have seen a few of these cases, the poor girl is torn between her lover and her family. 

And indians don't worry about us, we have never had large scale pogroms like you do in india, that kill thousands, such as Sikh's in 84, Gujarat and anti-Christian violence.


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## mahabharath

Rafi said:


> The Pakistani Hindus are our people - our brothers and sisters - if they feel pain - we feel it also, some of this problem is when young girls fall in love with Muslim men, and convert - their families are hurt, and then show their anger, I have seen a few of these cases, the poor girl is torn between her lover and her family.
> 
> And indians don't worry about us, we have never had large scale pogroms like you do in india, that kill thousands, such as Sikh's in 84, Gujarat and anti-Christian violence.


 
Kiddo..is it always hindu girl falling in love with Muslim man or vice versa too? 

for some..it is always same boring characteristics...

When you have to show proof...it all starts with personal stories..with no proofs..i have seen or my friend have seen or my dad has seen blah blah..

on the other side, if it comes to India or Hindus, every incident is multiplied by 100 times..and boom..there you go..hatred..insults..

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## Rafi

mahabharath said:


> Kiddo..is it always hindu girl falling in love with Muslim man or vice versa too?
> 
> for some..it is always same boring characteristics...
> 
> When you have to show proof...it all starts with personal stories..with no proofs..i have seen or my friend have seen or my dad has seen blah blah..
> 
> on the other side, if it comes to India or Hindus, every incident is multiplied by 100 times..and boom..there you go..hatred..insults..



LoL - first prosecute the people responsible for '84 and then Gujarat and then Anti-Christian attacks and then talk, people in glass houses should not throw stones.


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## jayron

Come on guys.. It is ridiculous to expect a muslim country to treat its minorities equally. Which muslim country does? Even relatively progressive countries like Malaysia have discriminatory laws against minorities to hold them down. But what sets Pakistan apart is the atrocities against different sects and subsets of islam. If these people don't see bombing of sufi shrines and shia processions as abnormal, they need some help. probably in the form of drones.

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## Nelson

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a couple things
> 
> 
> first of all, india wasnt even a country until August, 1947....anyone who claims otherwise is delusional and lying to themselves.



I know what your textbooks say. They teach you that India was part of Pakistan! 

Pakistani textbook: "Previously, India was part of Pakistan" - Jihad Watch


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> secondly, I've already highlighted the realities of many (perhaps all?) Pakistani citizens who adhere to hindu religion.....the indians would consider them ''dalits''.....''untouchables''
> 
> they would be treated worse than slaves in hindustan, where caste-system is always hard at work not just behind the scenes --but even overtly.
> 
> many indians wouldnt even drink from the same fountain, eat from the same plate --or even sit on the same level as these people
> 
> 
> 
> i always laugh at these indians when they try to pull the ''moral high horse'' card


They seem to be okay with it. They are ready to get the worst treatment in India but do not want to stay in Pak. May be they think that the worst of the worst treatment is still going to be better than what they get in Pak.

Forget Hindus, even Muslims from your land of pure want to come and stay in India.


BTW, I'm still waiting for you to provide link of your claim about Gujarati Muslims. Why is it taking forever? If your claim is true than it should be all over the internet, right? 

Hope you would back up your claim next time.


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## KS

venu309 said:


> First & foremost it was the Pakistani leaders who wanted TNT & carved Pakistan out of India. They still subscribe to the TNT & the result is there for all to see. Secondly what do they offer to the Indian Muslims more than lip service? I'm not against the Hindus migrating to India, but I'm against people of any religion just entering India en masse like the BD illegal migrants. All I'm saying is that there is a legal process, which makes a background check etc through which everyone who want to migrate has to go. We cannot blindly accept them just because they declare themselves to be Hindus.



Who started it does not matter when the process was agreed to by both sides and the incision has taken place.

Regarding the background check, I agree. Only Hindus (& Sikhs) after verification must be allowed to cross the border because nowadays with the increasing intolerance you have a host of people of various sects,faith trying to flee the land at the first given opportunity,


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## NirmalKrish

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a couple things
> 
> 
> first of all, india wasnt even a country until August, 1947....anyone who claims otherwise is delusional and lying to themselves.
> 
> 
> secondly, I've already highlighted the realities of many (perhaps all?) Pakistani citizens who adhere to hindu religion.....the indians would consider them ''dalits''.....''untouchables''
> 
> they would be treated worse than slaves in hindustan, where caste-system is always hard at work not just behind the scenes --but even overtly.
> 
> many indians wouldnt even drink from the same fountain, eat from the same plate --or even sit on the same level as these people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i always laugh at these indians when they try to pull the ''moral high horse'' card



GET DOWN FROM CLOUD 9 MATE  look at the facts, they trying to escape the hell that they live in today. In India they will be treated as a human being first, with the basic fundamental human rights to which they are entitled to, rather than that of a infidel living in a that country of yours. They will not be persecuted, ridiculed and oppressed under the cloth of Islam. Don&#8217;t preach what you can&#8217;t practice.


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## SHAMK9

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> a couple things
> 
> 
> first of all, india wasnt even a country until August, 1947....anyone who claims otherwise is delusional and lying to themselves.
> 
> 
> secondly, I've already highlighted the realities of many (perhaps all?) Pakistani citizens who adhere to hindu religion.....the indians would consider them ''dalits''.....''untouchables''
> 
> they would be treated worse than slaves in hindustan, where caste-system is always hard at work not just behind the scenes --but even overtly.
> 
> many indians wouldnt even drink from the same fountain, eat from the same plate --or even sit on the same level as these people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i always laugh at these indians when they try to pull the ''moral high horse'' card


let them Indians worry about our problems


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## Areesh

^^^

Pathetic and sick incident.


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## Dr. NooB NinjA

So much    from the Pakistani members, and not a single source of credible news/info about Indians migrating to Pakistan for good..!!

Google blackout perhaps??!!

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## thegreensprite

salman108 said:


> Stop trying to teach us our religion.



Who said I was trying to teach you religion? Go and EDUCATE yourself before attempting to understand Islam.



> We believe Imam Mehdi will come, and we will stick to the signs of Mehdi as prescribed by the Last prophet Muhammad S.A.W (Ref: Medina) him self.



The only thing you believe is what your local maulvi sb has brainwashed you with, if you were capable of reading, you may have investigated yourself.



> Thus this shall be a good example of why a Qadyani should be called just that and NOT a muslim.



RIGHT... says someone living in a extremist cesspool.



> He has a certain set of belief, fine he shall practice and continue on with that, but DO NOT call your self Muslims for we believe in something else.



How does me calling myself Muslim stop you from being a Muslim? I don't get your logic. Allah doesn't need people like you to protect Islam.


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## thegreensprite

salman108 said:


> Specially if the maker of the new product tries to steal your trademark.



LOL... uneducated thinking again, are you saying Muslims have a TRADEMARK on Islam??? A PAKISTANI crying about trademark??? This is funny, reminds me of this : http://amittube.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/pakistan-mcdonalds.jpg

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------




jetti said:


> ...thats what these mullahs and fundamentalists are, they say they believe in islam but by virtue of their actions they are not muslims.



This also is the case for the followers of the mullahs.(only Muslim by name and not deed)

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------




jetti said:


> ...thats what these mullahs and fundamentalists are, they say they believe in islam but by virtue of their actions they are not muslims.



This also is the case for the followers of the mullahs.(only Muslim by name and not deed)


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## Sinnerman108

thegreensprite said:


> Who said I was trying to teach you religion? Go and EDUCATE yourself before attempting to understand Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing you believe is what your local maulvi sb has brainwashed you with, if you were capable of reading, you may have investigated yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> RIGHT... says someone living in a extremist cesspool.
> 
> 
> 
> How does me calling myself Muslim stop you from being a Muslim? I don't get your logic. Allah doesn't need people like you to protect Islam.



How is it in UK then ?

Are you sure, no one's brain washing u there ?
just like some one had a bright idea in a small punjab town and invented a new religion,
started brain washing people after that ...

Don't let those things happen to you.



> How does me calling myself Muslim stop you from being a Muslim? I don't get your logic. Allah doesn't need people like you to protect Islam.


The one's who believe Hadith of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, are called Muslims.
You think some one else was Mahdi, that goes against our belief and our understanding of what future is about to come.
Due to this difference it is obvious you shall be called some one thing, XYZ, ZBC, but you shall not be called what I call my self.


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## Abu Zolfiqar




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## BelligerentPacifist

I fear for Muslim children to be converted into Hinduism by force in Pakistan by the entertainment media.


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## lem34

If this is going on Pakistan govt should afford these people protection. They are Pakistanis first we must look after them. The perpetuation of these criminal acts must must not be allowed

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## xataxsata

*German, Italian aid workers kidnapped in Multan Pakistan*

(AFP)  4 hours ago 

MULTAN, Pakistan  Masked gunmen kidnapped a German aid worker and his Italian colleague overnight in Pakistan's central shrine city of Multan, local police said Friday.
*
The kidnappings bring to six the number of Westerners abducted since July* in nuclear-armed Pakistan, where US forces last year killed Osama bin Laden and which stands on the frontline of a Taliban insurgency.

"Three gunmen barged into a house and abducted an Italian and a German national at gunpoint on Thursday evening," Multan city police officer Aamir Zulfiqar Khan told AFP by telephone.

"The two men were working for a foreign non-government organisation."

Police said the motive and identity of the kidnappers was unclear.

There was no claim of responsibility for the abductions in Multan, which is about 400 kilometres (250 miles) southwest of the capital Islamabad and which in the past has not been considered particularly dangerous for Westerners.

It is the largest city in central Punjab province, known for its Sufi shrines, mosques and historic tombs. Southern Punjab is considered a recruiting ground for Taliban and other extremist Islamist groups.

A local security official told AFP that the kidnappers pistol-whipped a private security guard, then snatched the aid workers, but left behind a Western woman in the house that the group rented.

"The woman was unable to identify the kidnappers because they covered their faces with masks," the official told AFP on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

The Italian foreign ministry confirmed that one of its citizens had been kidnapped in Punjab, Pakistan's most populous province that borders India, but did not release any other details.

It said it was in "permanent contact" with the man's family and had activated its crisis unit, but called for discretion and cooperation from the media "so as not to compromise efforts at freeing our compatriot".

The foreigners reportedly work for an aid group that helps victims from Pakistan's devastating 2010 floods that affected up to 21 million people.

The German foreign ministry said Berlin was "aware of the reports and is the process of verifying them in cooperation with the Pakistani authorities".

Kidnappings are a plague in parts of Pakistan, where criminals snatch foreigners and locals for ransom, sometimes selling their hostages onto Taliban and Al-Qaeda-linked groups.

Earlier this month, gunmen kidnapped a British man working for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Quetta, the capital of Pakistan's insurgency-hit southwestern province of Baluchistan.

Last August, an American development director, Warren Weinstein, 70, was snatched from his home in Lahore and in July a Swiss couple were kidnapped while driving through Baluchistan.

The Taliban claim to be holding the Swiss and videos have been released of the couple in captivity.

Al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri also claims to be holding Weinstein, but the terror group has released no proof of life.

AFP: German, Italian aid workers kidnapped in Pakistan

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## *Awan*

when you bypass certain protocols,actually you are earning your death.long live defenders of mother land.


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## thegreensprite

salman108 said:


> How is it in UK then ?



UK is fine, the weather is not as hot as where you are, so you can think clearly.



> Are you sure, no one's brain washing u there ?



How do you mean brainwashing there? I wonder how much brainwashing happens in Saudi or Pakistan? Or is it lack of education?



> just like some one had a bright idea in a small punjab town and invented a new religion,
> started brain washing people after that ...



Well nothing you can do about it.. we are still here after a century.



> The one's who believe Hadith of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, are called Muslims.



WOW.. so you are not even Muslim? So you have lived in Pakistan/Saudi, have a picture of a crazy fundee Pakistani dicatator as your avatar, but you don't even know what makes a Muslim? Shabash beta.. shabash. 



> You think some one else was Mahdi, that goes against our belief and our understanding of what future is about to come.
> Due to this difference it is obvious you shall be called some one thing, XYZ, ZBC, but you shall not be called what I call my self.



LOL... you are not even Muslim, just because you decide to call yourself one doesn't make you one. So what will happen is that I will keep on calling myself a Muslim, and you can just get upset about it if you like, nobody cares.


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