# The Nuclear Battlefield - India vs Pakistan



## Mercenary

Very Interesting Article Written on Bharat-Rakshak on a potential Land War between India and Pakistan

The Bold Part talks about a Potential Land War and Strategies that will be used.

BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR: Volume 3(6)

The Nuclear Battlefield - India vs Pakistan

Sanjay Badri-Maharaj

India and Pakistan face each other on some of the most varied and inhospitable battlefields in the world. Both armies have undergone major modernization and reorganization programmes and have sought to bring their military establishments up to much higher technological and tactical standards. The Indian and Pakistani armed forces are two extremely competent military establishments and should not be underestimated.

This section will examine nuclear weapons in the context of their possible use on the India-Pakistan battlefield. It outlines the structure and the organizations of the principal fighting formations of the Indian and Pakistani armies will be given, including a reasonably detailed account of the ongoing modernization/re-structuring programme currently being undertaken by the Indian army. In addition, the standard of NBC warfare training will be assessed. This will then be followed by an assessment of the various theatres of possible battle and the overall tactics to be adopted by each side in order to achieve their desired objectives. The advantages and disadvantages of nuclear weapons against available battlefield targets will then be examined. This examination will also explore the chances of successful nuclear strike against a principal offensive formation of either army. Few publications in either India or Pakistan discuss the battlefield impact of nuclear weapons. This is not surprising and is in keeping with the policy of nuclear ambiguity that currently holds sway over the political and military elites of both countries. A discussion of this aspect of the India-Pakistan nuclear equation must be carried out as it may determine nuclear strategy against civilian targets.

The Indian & Pakistani Armies: Organization & Structure

Some of the basic formations that exist in both armies are virtually identical in India and Pakistan, indeed in most Western influenced armies, and as such some generalizations can be made. The basic infantry fighting formation is the battalion. It is composed of four rifle companies and headquarters and support companies. Its heaviest weapons are generally mortars and machine guns, though some may also have anti-tank and surface-to-air missiles. In addition to basic infantry battalions, mechanized, parachute and commando battalions also exist, each created, trained and equipped for a special role

Artillery and armoured formations have battalion equivalents called regiments. These are organized in a similar manner - armoured regiments have four tank squadrons while artillery regiments have between three and four artillery batteries. All of these formations are of similar size, about one thousand men. Battalion sized formations are amalgamated with other formations to form brigades.

In the India-Pakistan context, the most important formation is the brigade. Like the battalion, there are armour and artillery equivalents, but all share a basic similarity of structure. A brigade consists of three battalions or regiments and is usually provided with some supporting equipment - artillery and heavy mortars in the case of armour and infantry units. Some brigades, however, are designed to operate independently and these are given more supporting elements, including engineering and signals as well as additional artillery.

Brigades are usually grouped together, with additional artillery, engineering, signals and other support elements to form a division. India and Pakistan operate two basic types of division: infantry and armoured. India's infantry divisions are divided into plains and mountains formations which, as their names suggest are trained and equipped to fight in different geographic environments. The mountain divisions are primarily earmarked for use against China, though they could be converted for use on the plains after reequipment.

A typical infantry division comprises three infantry brigades, an artillery brigade and an armoured regiment. Support elements include an engineer regiment, a signal regiment and an air observation post flight, in addition to medical, transport, supply and repair units. Mountain divisions lack the armoured regiment and tend to have smaller calibre artillery. They also have more engineering and support/logistics elements than plains formations.

The largest formation of any army is the corps. This formation, pioneered by Napoleon, consists of three divisions and their supporting arms. In the South-Asia context, there are two types of corps: Holding Corps and Strike Corps. The former are designed for defensive operations while the latter is the principal offensive formation of both armies.

The Indian Army: Order of Battle

The Indian army consists of 11 Corps sized formation with a total of 36 divisions and a number of independent brigades. The cutting edge of the Indian army is centred around three powerful Strike Corps - each built around one armoured division. The other eight Corps are defined as Holding Corps, though they may have significant offensive potential. There may be some minor changes to the ORBAT, but no significant changes are expected in the foreseeable future. There are some differences between the ORBAT outlined below and that listed in many published sources, but this ORBAT is more representative of the current Indian army than other sources. 

In addition to these combat formations, the Indian army has four engineer brigades and 14 Army Aviation Corps Helicopter Units. A separate Corps of Air Defence Artillery operates six air defence brigades and two surface-to-air missile groups. These elements are assigned to formations on a need basis, though, with CADA units in particular, many are earmarked for deployment and operations with specific formations.

As mentioned before, the principal offensive formations of the Indian army are the three Strike Corps - 1 Corps, 2 Corps & 21 Corps. These are built around a nucleus of a single armoured division and two infantry divisions - probably with more mechanized brigades than basic infantry formations. The typical Strike Corps has the following structure:

The Holding Corps are not as well supplied with support, from either CADA or the engineers as the Strike Corps, and do not possess armoured formations larger than brigades and the armoured regiments attached to the infantry regiments. These formations have significant offensive capability, but are largely designed to operate in a defensive role.

The Indian army possesses a fairly varied arsenal of reasonably advanced weapons. Each combat arm - armour, artillery and infantry is in the process of a massive modernization program which was slowed in the early 1990s thanks to budgetary constraints. However, the program has resumed and has started to show some results, many of which will have a significant impact on the ability of the army to operate in a hostile nuclear environment. The pace, if monitored on a year by year basis, may seem slow, but in reality the Indian army is working to a well conceived plan.

Indian Army: Status of Combat Arms

Armour

Indian armour is divided into three basic formations - the division, the independent brigade and the armoured regiment of the infantry division. These are equipped with three basic types of tanks - the T-72M1, modified T-55s and Vijayantas.

The Indian army intends to have 65 regiments of armour by the year 2000, each with between 55 and 72 tanks. The T-72M1 is now the principal combat tank of the army and has replaced the Vijayanta in local production. The new Arjun Main Battle Tank is entering service at an extremely slow rate. As of now, 62 regiments exist, with a total of over 3,500 tanks:

35 regiments T-72M1 - over 1900 in service

13 regiments T-55 - over 700 in service - 200 in store

14 regiments Vijayanta - over 1000 in service - 1000 in store

The current Indian fleet of T-72M1s are in the process of a major upgrade program which has focussed on the provision of thermal sights, additional armour, better ammunition and better fire protection. The older tanks have already undergone minor upgrades - night-fighting in both T-55s & Vijayantas and replacement of the original 100mm guns on the T-55 with 105mm guns. Some of the Vijayantas have been given additional applique armour.

Artillery

India's Regiment of Artillery has recently undergone a reorganization programme which has resulted in the field branch of artillery being separated from the Corps of Air Defence Artillery and the Army Aviation Corps. It now possesses close to 200 regiments with approximately 4000 pieces of artillery of various types. The vast bulk of India's artillery is towed - rather surprising considering the increased mechanization of the Indian army. The 130mm Catapult and 105mm Abbot self-propelled guns are now being phased out of active service due to age and mechanical problems. The massive competition for 155mm SP guns has been given a lower priority and consideration has been given to obtaining several regiments of 152mm SP guns of Russian origin.

The Artillery Plan 2000 seems to give much priority to the acquisition of large numbers of SP artillery. As it would be difficult, if not impossible, for towed artillery to operate effectively in a nuclear environment, one wonders if this says anything about India's attitude towards battlefield nuclear warfare. To further complicate the issue, a former Chief of Army Staff has written that the nuclear battlefield places less emphasis on artillery support while the Regiment of Artillery sometimes voices the opposite!

According to informed sources, the new Indian military doctrine emphasises attrition warfare over the previous manoeuvre policy. This means that the artillery, which used to be a combat support arm, is now classed as a combat arm with priorities shifting between direct support and counter-bombardment. The new army tactical doctrine will be discussed in detail later in this chapter, however, the basic thrust has moved from deep thrusts with mechanized forces to maximum attrition of enemy forces, limited manoeuvre and attacks on strategic and operational targets. Artillery, therefore, has a central role to play in any attrition based doctrine.

The real modernization of Indian artillery is in the development of Surveillance and Target Acquisition (SATA) batteries. These are being supplied with indigenously manufactured battlefield surveillance radar as well as artillery locating radars. This dramatically enhances the effectiveness of Indian artillery. A number of Israeli made Remote Piloted Vehicles are being obtained for the targeting of the Prithvi SSM.

The changes being made in Indian artillery give some indication of Indian army tactical thinking. They also give some clues about India's new military doctrine. The problem is that, to the outside observer, there seem to be many contradictions in what has been publicly been revealed about this military doctrine, especially regarding the artillery.

Infantry

The Indian infantry has, since the 1980s, felt itself a neglected service. The major re-equipment programs that affected the armoured regiments and, to a lesser extent, the artillery, did not come to the infantry. This is not to say that the Indian infantry has remained unchanged, as it is in fact constantly changing. The infantry's anti-tank, night fighting and target acquisition capabilities have been substantially enhanced, and some expansion of mechanized infantry units was undertaken.

By far the most significant development as far as India's infantry is concerned has been the creation of the RAPID - Reorganized Army Plains Infantry Division. This is a uniquely Indian creation and is specifically designed for the South Asian battlefield. The basic RAPID has one mechanized infantry and two standard infantry brigades:


There are currently four RAPIDS in the Indian army, these being attached to the Holding Corps in Punjab and Rajasthan. The RAPID provides these essentially defensive formations with an extremely flexible unit that dramatically enhances their ability to withstand offensive operations by Pakistani armour. Moreover, the RAPID possesses sufficient armoured/mechanized infantry assets to conduct reasonably significant offensive operations. The RAPID is also easily adaptable to NBC warfare.

The advent of the RAPID was accompanied by a dramatic upgrade of Indian army C3I assets and communications. Under plan AREN - Army Radio Engineering Network - a secure, real-time network was established, significantly enhancing the army's ability to conduct and manage major offensive and defensive operations. Moreover, because it is EMP ( electromagnetic pulse ) shielded, this network provides the Indian army, for the first time in its history, with a reliable C3I system that could continue functioning in a nuclear environment. This is extremely significant and could be an indication of an emerging Indian battlefield nuclear doctrine.

Indian officers view the infantry as being particularly significant for wars of the future and substantial investments are finally being made in terms of equipment upgrades and enhanced training. The Indian Army has made the acquisition of better anti-tank and personal weapons, communications gear and night-fighting capabilities for its infantry a top priority.

These will satisfy most, if not all, of the foreseeable infantry modernization targets for the next decade. Indian officers have also stressed the need for infantry to be prepared for NBC warfare and have made this something of a priority. Items such as body armour and improved web gear are finally being issued to infantry units.

In order to cope with massed Pakistani armour, the old 106mm recoilless guns issued to infantry anti-tank units are being upgraded as well as supplemented with new anti-tank missiles. In addition, night vision equipment - of the imaging intensifying as well as thermal imaging types - are now being more widely issued to infantry units. These items, while relatively minor in themselves, dramatically enhance the fighting potential of the infantry.

One of the more interesting aspects of India's infantry modernization is the lower importance of increasing mechanization. Mechanized infantry units, mounted in BMP-2 infantry combat vehicles are critical components of the Strike Corps and the RAPIDS, however, they have not made their way into the rest of the army in any major way. It is possible that the Indian army may consider the reorganization of some more infantry divisions into RAPIDS, budgetary allocations permitting.

Indian infantry formations have undergone some substantial changes in the last few years. For the first time, however, the infantry has been given priority over the other arms in the acquisition of new equipment. This means that the Indian infantry of the next decade will be better organized, and trained and equipped for any possible scenario.

Air Defence

India's Corps of Air Defence Artillery - CADA - is one of the newest formations in the Indian army. The Indian army possesses one of the largest array of medium and short-range air defence systems of any army in Asia. Moreover, CADA is set for a major expansion and reorganization programme which will significantly enhance its lethality.

At present, CADA has, as its pride of place, two huge missile groups equipped with SA-6 surface-to-air missiles. These are assigned to the Strike Corps and represent a powerful deterrent to any attack aircraft. In addition, there are 30 regiments with Bofors L-40/70 towed anti-aircraft guns, four with ZSU-23/4 self-propelled AA guns and a number with towed ZU-23 guns. These are complemented by a number of mobile point-defence missile regiments with SA-8b and SA-13 missile units.

As part of its modernization programme, CADA's equipment is set for a dramatic upgrade. The Strike Corps may well be provided with a new air defence brigade group - comprising SA-6, OSA-AKM (SA-8b) and ZSU-23/4 or Tunguska regiments. India's indigenous SAMs - the Akash & Trishul - are to be deployed as replacements for the SA-6 and SA-8 respectively and will enter service in the next two years. Man-portable SAMs - namely the SA-16 - are used to cover 'blind-areas' for CADA units as well as being on issue to infantry battalions.

Not only will these systems be highly effective against aircraft, but the eventual deployment of Akash units would provide a significant defence against ballistic missiles. This would mean that any aircraft or missile attempting to deliver a nuclear, or any other, warhead onto an Indian military target will have to contend with an extremely sophisticated air defence screen. This screen would be most dense at corps and division level and would still have a significant impact at brigade level. The only easy targets for Pakistani aircraft or missiles would be Indian infantry battalions which would only have a few SA-16 man-portable SAMs for air defence. Therefore, the question any Pakistani planner would have to ask is whether the benefits of attacking a major Indian combat formation with nuclear weapons are worth the risk - a risk which is getting higher and higher.

The Pakistani Army: Order of Battle

The Pakistani army is organized into nine Corps and Force Command Northern Area. These contain 22 divisions , 15 independent brigades (6 armoured and 9 infantry), 9 Corps artillery brigades, 7 engineering brigades and 15 army aviation squadrons - including two of attack helicopters. In addition, the Pakistani army has 8 air defence brigades. It must be pointed out, however, that Pakistani brigades and divisions are somewhat smaller than their Indian counterparts. Again, this order of battle differs to a certain extent from that normally quoted. The order of battle is as follows:


Pakistan's two principal fighting formations are Army Reserve North (ARN) and Army Reserve South (ARS). These are an approximate equivalent to the Indian Strike Corps in terms of size and composition. These have, as in the case of their Indian counterparts, a nucleus of a single armoured division and up to two infantry divisions with numerous brigades:



Status of Combat Arms:

Armour

As in the case of the Indian army, the Pakistani army possesses three armoured division and a number of armoured brigades. These operate almost 2,500 Main Battle Tanks of a bewildering variety and from various generations. The most recent acquisitions are 320 T-80 UD MBTs from the Ukraine. This deal has been mired in controversy because of Russia's refusal to supply spares, including gun barrels, and doubts over Ukraine's ability to provide spares and support.

The T-80UD is a major improvement over the existing Pakistani tank fleet. The most modern units, until the arrival of the T-80UDs, were license made Chinese T-85 II tanks. An indigenous MBT - the Al-Khalid - has failed to materialise. The rest of the fleet consists of over a thousand T-69/-59 tanks of Chinese origin, which have been upgraded with 105mm guns. The rest of the fleet is a mixture of 1950s & 1960s vintage M-47/-48A5 tanks. These, while serviceable, are not really a match for even older Indian armour. The Pakistani tank fleet lacks modern fire control equipment and advanced night-fighting capabilities. It can be expected that Pakistan will attempt to rectify this in the near future.

Artillery

As in the case of its Indian counterpart, Pakistan's Regiment of Artillery has undergone a tremendous re-organization and modernization programme. While substantial quantities of new equipment have been inducted, large numbers of completely obsolete artillery pieces - long since relegated to reserve/storage status in the Indian army - remain in service.

Pakistan created the subcontinent's first artillery division using a core component of two artillery brigades and an air defence unit. While Pakistan has far fewer artillery tubes than the massive Indian artillery park, it is interesting to note that it was responsible for this major organizational innovation.

The most noteworthy feature of Pakistan's artillery is the number of 155 and 203mm self-propelled guns. This gives Pakistani armour an integral artillery capability that is currently lacking in Indian armoured units. Moreover, these guns are more easily operated in an NBC environment than towed guns.

Pakistan's artillery also comprises an assortment of older pieces, including some Second World War vintage 25 pounders. As in the case of the Indian artillery, considerable progress has been made in the introduction of fire control computers and other surveillance and target acquisition equipment. This, of course, dramatically enhances the efficacy of artillery - no matter how old the guns are.

Infantry

There is not much difference between Pakistani and Indian army infantry formations. Pakistan has not developed an organization equivalent to the Indian RAPIDS and has not attempted the massive modernization programme - in terms of modern night vision, target finding and anti-tank weaponry - that the Indian army has recently undertaken.

The only really noteworthy aspect of the Pakistani infantry is the fact that it was the first to introduce mechanized units to the subcontinent. These mechanized infantry units are provided with over eight hundred M-113 armoured personnel carriers. While not as capable as India's BMP-2 units, these older APCs provide Pakistan's infantry with a reasonable degree of battlefield mobility. However, as far as NBC warfare is concerned, these older APCs offer somewhat less protection than the BMPs.

Air Defense

Unlike the Indian army, Pakistan lacks any medium self-propelled surface-to-air missiles and modern self-propelled air-defence guns. Pakistan's six air defence brigades are equipped with a wide variety of shoulder-launched SAMs and thousands of towed air defence guns. These are used with both Western and Chinese fire-control radar.

It is not known if Pakistan intends to obtain any more advanced radar and target acquisition equipment. The Pakistani army air defence units remain constrained in their ability to obtain advanced self-propelled air-defence assets since Russia, the principal producer of these items, will not sell these items to Pakistan. Strangely enough, Pakistan does not seem to be making particularly vigorous efforts to rectify this shortcoming in their army air defences.

NBC warfare

Both the Indian and Pakistani armies are extremely well trained. This is especially true up to brigade level. Both armies possess a high degree of tactical skill and pride themselves on their ability to perform their assigned tasks. Using a mixture of traditional methods and modern techniques and equipment, both armies are extremely capable. In the area of NBC warfare, however, a rather confusing picture emerges. Both countries frequently made mention of their ability to fight in NBC conditions, but little hard information is available on the degree of NBC readiness.

In the 1980s, the Indian army began some tentative preparations for NBC warfare. In the early part of that decade, a limited quantity of S6 respirators and No.1Mk.3 NBC suits - both of British origin - was purchased. A quantity of NBC equipment was imported from the USSR, but proved to be useless in Indian environmental conditions. Moreover, India's defence research organization, in 1987, produced prototypes of NBC suits, decontamination suits, facelets, overboots and NBC tents. This equipment has entered production and service with the Indian armed forces.

As regards training, from 1987 onwards, the Indian army, through its College of Military Engineering, began running familiarization courses in NBC warfare, while scientist conducted courses at brigade level. Moreover, a series of studies were undertaken to provide for both active and passive defence against nuclear attack for army combat formations.

As regards equipment, the Indian Ministry of Defence has obviously allocated high priority to the indigenous production of NBC gear. This has also involved the participation of the private sector for the manufacture of both NBC suits and respirators. In addition, the Indian army has retained its old Second World War respirators - these are old, but would still offer significant protection. India would not find it particularly difficult to produce enough NBC personal gear - respirators and NBC suits - for its armed forces in a relatively short period of time - though this equipment might be placed in storage. Mention should also be made of the fact that a new decontamination vehicle has entered production.

While it is abundantly clear that NBC warfare has been accorded a much higher priority in the Indian army, it remains unclear as to the exact status of NBC preparedness and training in the Indian army. Attempts to contact senior military officers on this subject proved unsuccessful, though some retired officers offered some vague information that leads to the conclusion that some training is in progress.

It has become clear that India's Army Training Command has conducted detailed studies into NBC warfare. Indeed, given India's perception of its nuclear threat, it is not surprising that the Indian army schools of instruction and combat include NBC scenarios. Moreover, the publisher of the prestigious Indian Defence Review stated that the forces earmarked for use against Pakistan are well equipped to deal with NBC warfare.

It would be natural for India's Strike Corps to be the first to be fully equipped and prepared for NBC warfare and there are some indications of this beginning to occur. It is highly probable that at least one Corps is fully prepared - trained and equipped for NBC warfare. The other formations would probably receive personal NBC gear - but will be allocated a lower priority for receiving decontamination and monitoring equipment. It should be pointed out that the RAPIDS require virtually no modifications for deployment in an NBC environment.

It can probably be assumed that the state of NBC warfare in Pakistan is in a similar state to that of India, except that Pakistan's industry is not yet capable of meeting all NBC needs and that the country lacks the massive R & D infrastructure of India. Indian sources assume that Pakistan has a nucleus of NBC trained personnel - with Chinese NBC gear.

One thing is clear, however, both countries have now made NBC warfare something of a priority and are making efforts - covertly - to train and equip themselves. Nonetheless, there may be a large gap between what the military wants and reality.

While there is some reference to NBC warfare and the necessity to fight under such conditions in both armies, there have never been any major NBC exercises conducted by either side. It is therefore not inconceivable that the principal focus of NBC training and equipment programs in both countries is more geared towards meeting an emergency that might arise after one side uses such weapons. This would involve stockpiling equipment and drafting rapid training instructions - aimed at rapidly familiarizing troops who have to enter an NBC contaminated area. It does not seem that either country intends to develop a tactical nuclear warfare doctrine.

One of the reasons for the lack of NBC exercises could be the extremely severe environmental conditions prevailing on the South Asian battlefield. These conditions range from the intense cold of the Siachen glacier to the blistering heat of the Thar desert. Under normal peacetime conditions these climates pose great difficulties for human endurance, if the troops were clad in full NBC gear and armoured vehicles 'buttoned-up', there would be more casualties from heat-stroke than from exposure.

This brings us to the other issue that needs to be considered - where on the South Asian battlefield could tactical nuclear weapons possibly be used ? The answer to this question will determine whether or not there is any battlefield use for nuclear weapons.

*Theatres of Operations

Any India-Pakistan conflict will take place in four major theatres, each varying in geography and, to a lesser extent climatically. The theatres of operations are:

1) Along the Line of Control - Northern Kashmir region

2) Southern Jammu & Kashmir and Punjab sectors

3) North and Central Rajasthan

4) South Rajasthan and Gujarat

When looking at these theatres of operations, it must be borne in mind that the Line of Control in the Northern Kashmir region is not an internationally recognized border. It should also be noted that Punjab and Kashmir are politically very sensitive areas for the political establishments in both countries. It is, therefore, hardly likely that any major loss of territory in either of these two areas would be acceptable.

In the Southern Jammu & Kashmir and Punjab sectors, stretching down into North and Central Rajasthan, there are a series of extremely formidable obstacle defences, which are called ditch-cum-bunds by the Indians, and canals by the Pakistanis. These defences, combined with the existing natural ground features make large-scale mechanized operations virtually impossible. These linear defences are extremely formidable, since the ditch-cum-bunds are liberally laced with diffused and well concealed concrete bunkers which have considerable defensive firepower and are difficult to locate, even with thermal imaging. This effectively limits operations to defensive positions with only local offensive capability.

The Rajasthan and Gujarat regions present an entirely different scenario. In the Northern/Central Rajasthan theatre, considerable scope exists for the large scale use of mechanised formations in the desert and semi-desert sectors. It is in these sectors, the Thar desert and the Rann of Kutch, that the major armoured battles of the next India-Pakistan war are likely to be fought. It is, therefore, not surprising that a complete Indian Strike Corps is earmarked for use primarily in this area.

The Thar Desert and Rann of Kutch also present the best possible place for tactical nuclear warfare. The barren desert areas are ideal in that so-called collateral damage could be reduced. Moreover, any meaningful Indian gains in this area, that is beyond the major river lines, would threaten the very existence of the Pakistani state, thus prompting Pakistan to actively consider using nuclear weapons in the event of a major Indian breakthrough.

On the other hand, since the Indian Strike Corps will be operating in this area, so will be the bulk of India's formidable Corps of Air Defence Artillery. This means that any Pakistani attack against a major Indian formation would be met with heavy resistance from extremely dense and sophisticated CADA assets - not to mention fighter squadrons from the Indian Air Force. Therefore, any Pakistani attack stands a good chance of being repelled without reaching their assigned target.

India could also reduce the risk of nuclear retaliation by limiting its advance to the major river lines, or to between 60-80 km in the North/Central Rajasthan sectors. This would mean that the existence of Pakistan would no longer be threatened while India would still occupy chunks of territory. Pakistan would probably be less willing to cross the nuclear threshold for such a limited Indian advance.

It is unlikely that either India or Pakistan would initiate nuclear warfare in either the Punjab or Kashmir regions purely for tactical gain. Indeed, for Pakistan the use of such weapons in Kashmir would almost certainly alienate the Muslim population of the Kashmir Valley. In the case of Punjab, Pakistan's military and political elites are largely drawn from that Province and as such it is extremely unlikely that they would take a risk as large as this for limited tactical gains. From a purely military standpoint, it should also be pointed out that the ditch-cum-bund defences and their network of concrete bunkers would probably survive a nuclear attack. This would render a nuclear attack in this sector virtually useless.

Therefore, the only area in which nuclear weapons would be tactically useful is in Rajasthan and Gujarat - for reasons which have already been given. Yet that land , especially in Rajasthan, Thar Desert sector, is of virtually no strategic importance. Would any militarily sane nation risk revealing the full extent of its covert nuclear program unless its very existence was threatened ? The answer is clearly no. Therefore, if India limits its territorial gains in this area, Pakistan would have no reason to resort to nuclear weapons.

There is one wild card in this scenario - the Line of Control. If India were to launch a major assault along the LoC - would Pakistan use nuclear weapons ? An examination of a possible war scenario will perhaps illustrate Indian planning more clearly.War Scenario:

In 1987, the India army conducted a massive military exercise, 'Brasstacks', which outlined what was then a new tactical doctrine. No longer would the Indian army concentrate on operations in Punjab, as it had during the 1965 war, but would deploy massively powerful armoured formations in the Rajasthan sector with the aim of bisecting Pakistan at its weakest point in the Sindh Province.

This has been the model most often used and quoted by scholars in the literature available on possible war scenarios. Moreover, it has been further argued that thanks to Pakistan's nuclear capability, an Indian offensive in the Sindh that met with success would be answered by a Pakistani nuclear strike. Since the defences in the Punjab are strong, it was therefore argued that as India's military superiority was hardly overwhelming, the nuclear factor may be creating an environment where war was almost impossible.

This model is, however, obsolete and far from creating a certain conventional stalemate, has simply led to the Indian army re-thinking its tactical doctrine. No longer will the Indian army attempt to make major territorial gains, but it will concentrate on occupying a small stretch of territory, not enough to threaten Pakistan's existence, but enough to force Pakistan to commit its forces where they will be met by superior Indian firepower which will then inflict maximum attrition. The reason for this in part lies in the risk of nuclear warfare, but the main reason lies in the fact that previous wars in 1965 and 1971 have shown that major territorial gains are unlikely in a short war.

If a major Indian offensive occurs, it will occur in Kashmir. Never before has the Indian army attempted any offensive in Kashmir, but this time, thanks to the massive influx of troops into the State, an Indian offensive along the Line of Control is very possible. It could be argued that these troops are primarily for counter-insurgency operations. However, this does not explain why the formations coming into Jammu and Kashmir are bringing their artillery with them. Any fighting will in Kashmir will centre around a clash of infantry and artillery and as such, the induction of substantial artillery assets into the region must be seen as significant.

At the outset one thing must be made clear. Neither India or Pakistan believes that anything would be decided in a war lasting less than four weeks. India bases its plans on a period of intense fighting lasting six to eight weeks followed by a period of major, but less intense fighting lasting up to four more weeks. War Wastage Reserves are calculated on this basis and so if a war lasts only two weeks or thereabouts, the most that can be hoped for is for heavy attrition of the enemy forces.

India has therefore moved away from the Brasstacks plan of bisecting Pakistan in the Sindh and threatening Islamabad with encirclement to a more modest objective of destroying as much of the Pakistani military as possible. Pakistan's nuclear weapons provide some deterrence against any Indian move to make deep thrusts into its territory and against any possible bisection of Pakistan, they are of no use in a war aimed solely at inflicting maximum attrition against Pakistani military forces.

The Indian army has two Strike Corps, 2 Corps & 1 Corps, assigned to the Rajasthan and Punjab sectors respectively. The Strike Corps are described in an earlier section, but each is composed of one armoured division and several infantry divisions and supporting units. Each will also have an artillery division attached. There is another Strike Corps - 21 Corps which is not yet fully operational.

In the Brasstacks model, these were the two formations Pakistan was most concerned about and their continued presence in the Rajasthan and Punjab sectors will ensure that Pakistan cannot consider any major troop redeployments in either sector. Under current plans, India intends not to advance more than 60-80km in the North/Central Rajasthan sector and only up to the major river lines in South Rajasthan/Gujarat, Pakistan's existence would hardly be threatened.

However, it must be remembered that India and Pakistan will be fighting a political war as much as a military one and any loss of territory is considered a major political embarrassment. This means that Pakistan would invariably have to attempt a counterattack against Indian forces occupying any of its territory. Its forces would then be drawn into a battle of attrition against Indian forces, a battle that they would lose. If the current build up of air defence assets, upgrading of armour and anti-tank munitions and the increase in artillery within the India army is seen in light of this post-Brasstacks tactical doctrine, it is abundantly clear that India is building up its forces to ward off any Pakistani counterattack, inflicting devastating losses on the attackers.

In the Southern Jammu & Kashmir and Punjab sectors, the huge fixed fortifications described previouslyr effectively limit the scope of any Indian operation. India is highly unlikely to attempt a major offensive in this sector for two reasons. The first is the extent of the fortified defences in this sector, but the second is far more significant and goes to the core of Pakistan's vulnerability versus India.

The real vulnerability of Pakistan lies, not in a lack of 'strategic depth', but in the fact that so many of its major population centres and politically and military sensitive targets lie very close to the border with India. As was mentioned earlier, this negates the tactical use of nuclear weapons in the Punjab sector in particular. However, should India threaten Lahore, for example, Pakistan could be compelled to attempt a nuclear strike against an Indian civilian target. As such, it is hardly likely that India would want to risk a major advance in Punjab. Aims in this sector would be limited to holding Pakistani forces in a defensive deployment pattern while inflicting maximum attrition with 2 Corps and 21 Corps.

Along the Line of Control, however, the situation is very different. One of the consequences of the Kashmir insurgency is that India has transferred several divisions to the area to reinforce the troops already there and bringing total troop strength in this sector to over 250,000. The Indian divisions and brigades also brought their supporting artillery with them and this combination - which is far in excess of what is needed for defensive operations - enables Indian planners to contemplate a major offensive along the Line of Control with every chance of success.

The importance of the term Line of Control cannot be understated. Pakistan clings to the illusion, in official pronouncements at any rate, that its part of Kashmir is not really part of Pakistan. As such, it has always refused to recognize the Line of Control as the international border with India. This is something that India intends to exploit to the fullest. Pakistan, on the other hand, appears to work to a different strategy. From the time of the 1965 and 1971 wars, up until India's Brasstacks exercise, emphasis was placed on the static defence of the Line of Control and the border. However, in light of India's substantially enhanced offensive capabilities, Pakistan realised that this 'stand and fight' doctrine would lead to serious Indian penetration of Pakistani territory with the Pakistani army being unable to manoeuvre to meet the threat. Counterattacking formations would then be destroyed piecemeal.

Pakistan has therefore adopted a new strategy - the Riposte. This is remarkably simple in concept in that Pakistan would accept the loss of territory in Indian penetrations, but would conduct a limited advance along narrow fronts with the aim of occupying territory near the border to a depth of 40-50km. Pakistan believes that this would give it a bargaining chip to be used in the aftermath of a ceasefire brought about by international pressure after 3-4 weeks of fighting.The Pakistanis, to some extent, still assume that India will attempt deep penetrations into the territory. Moreover, it appears that though the Pakistani army is well prepared for this new doctrine, there is an inadequate appreciation of the threat posed by Indian air power to the attacking formations. Some planning has been based on the highly unrealistic assumption of local air superiority and as such these plans may go seriously awry.

So what will a future India-Pakistan war look like ? There are a number of good books on the 1965 and 1971 wars and some excellent accounts of the tactical thinking behind Exercise Brasstacks are available. These, however, are not of much use at present. However, perhaps the best and most realistic war scenario was painted by defence journalist Pravin Sawhney in the Asian Age newspaper in November 1994.

Holding formations in both India and Pakistan can man their forward defensive positions and fortifications in less than 24 hours. However, Corps level reserves with large stockpiles of munitions will take between 24 to 72 hours for mobilization after being given their orders. In this regard, both armies will be evenly matched in the first 24 hours since the Pakistani units have to travel a shorter distance to their forward positions.

Pakistan's Army Reserve North is based in the Kharian/Mangla complex and would need to travel only 200km to its forward concentration areas or even their assembly areas where regrouping before an offensive is done. This could be done at extremely short notice and is consistent with Pakistan's pre-conceived offensive plans as outlined in the Riposte doctrine. Army Reserve South, which is based in the Multan area can also be available for operations in a similar time. While many of India's formations may take up to 72 hours to be fully deployed, two out of India's three Strike Corps, 1 Corps & 2 Corps, are so positioned as to match the mobilization timings of Army Reserve South. As of now, it is not known if the third Strike Corps, 21 Corps, will be available at such short notice.

India could, in theory, disrupt the early deployment of Army Reserve North if the Indian Army's Northern Command denies deployment space with the pre-emptive mobilization and deployment of Northern Command's theatre reserves. In 1994, Sawhney was unconvinced that this was possible owing to the employment of so many units of the Indian army on internal security duties in Jammu & Kashmir. However, since 1994, the number of paramilitary units in Jammu & Kashmir has grown and the Indian army has deployed almost thirty thousand men from its Rashtriya Rifles battalions. These would take at least some pressure off the regular army in counter-insurgency operations. Moreover, the number of regular army troops in the state seems to have grown. These could provide the Indian army with sufficient troops in theatre to deny Pakistan's Army Reserve North deployment space, thus neutralizing any advantage Pakistan had in this regard.

The problem with assessing whether or not Indian troop strength is adequate to the task of neutralizing Army Reserve North's deployment is that the internal security situation in Jammu and Kashmir is very variable. It is possible that the paramilitary forces and the Rashtriya Rifles will free a large number of troops for conventional operations. Moreover, it is possible that up to three divisions, with over forty thousand men, could be moved from the China border without seriously degrading India's defences against a Chinese assault. These troops are held by Central and Eastern commands, and have actually been earmarked for out of theatre operations.

In the case of Army Reserve South, the Indian Air Force has the potential to cause havoc with their deployment by beginning an intensive interdiction campaign in the Gujrat (Punjab)-Sialkot-Gujranwala area. However, this would make India the aggressor in any conflict. Sawhney argues that this would make the Indian government reluctant to permit this, however, that is not at all certain. The Indian government may well engineer incidents to give an excuse, however flimsy, for the Indian Air Force to begin such an interdiction campaign.

In order to further reduce the risk of a Pakistani nuclear strike, it is possible that India, through the United Nations, might make certain pledges to Pakistan. These might include a pledge not to deliberately attack a civilian target, to refrain from attacking civilian nuclear installations and a promise not to initiate the use of weapons of mass destruction unless attacked with such weapons. India could also make it clear that it would abide by these terms only if Pakistan agrees to do the same. Should Pakistan not agree, India would probably assume that a nuclear strike would be forthcoming.

Let us for the moment assume that India does not deny Army Reserve North deployment space and that the Indian government does not sanction the launching of preemptive air strikes. Both India and Pakistan will have a relative parity in manpower and combat formations at the start of any conflict. India will be able to bring up some very large combat formations from central and eastern India, but Pakistan would be almost fully committed. A force of three infantry divisions plus some independent brigades under 11 & 12 Corps would be transferable from the Peshawar and Quetta areas respectively, but with very little artillery and armour. Moreover, if there is any serious escalation of fighting in Afghanistan, Pakistan may be less willing to denude its Afghan border of all regular army formations.

The Indian objectives in the Northern sector, in Jammu & Kashmir, are somewhat unclear. The Indian Defence Review Research Team argued that the capture of Skardu to cut off the main glacier zone in Baltistan would be a major objective. Moreover, a strong offensive aimed at capturing Muzzafarabad from the North and the South of the Jhelum, and the neutralization of the Haji Pir (Bedori ) Bulge would have to be undertaken. The Indian army would also attempt to capture the Mirpur-Mangla Complex with the view of presenting a clear and present threat to the Pakistani national capital region. Finally, to cope with the threat posed by Army Reserve North, Indian formations would make a penetration into the Sialkot sector with the sole aim of bottling up and denying deployment space to the Pakistani formations, thus ensuring its eventual destruction.

The scenario described above leads to the question as to whether Pakistan would launch a nuclear strike in response to the threat posed to its national capital. The Indian Defence Review Research Team does not answer this question in any way. Pravin Sawhney describes a far more detailed scenario which, while essentially similar in concept, seems to differ in some major details.

Sawhney, in his scenario, argues that the Indian army would have a choice - attacking into either Ladakh-Baltistan or into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir ( *** ) and that the army would prefer an ingress into the latter along the Line of Control. He also argues that the main thrust would be in the Jammu division between Poonch and Chammb with a secondary thrust into the Tithwal-Keran sectors.

Northern Command might also suggest that a limited offensive be conducted to the west of Zojila in the Dras-Kargil sectors. The aim here would be to cut off the lines of communications of the Pakistani brigade based near the Shingo and Indus Rivers. These operations will call for troops specially trained and equipped for operations in mountainous and hilly terrain and to this end, the three divisions previously earmarked for use against China would be invaluable. Moreover, select formations from these forces already send divisional reconnaissance groups into Kashmir for terrain familiarization.

That these divisional reconnaissance groups have been conducting terrain familiarization for quite some time gives rise to the idea that India has been planning for a major offensive in the Jammu & Kashmir sector for a long time.

Pravin Sawhney assumes that the attack in Kashmir would be launched first with two mountain divisions concentrated to begin operations in the directions of Jhanghar-Mirpur and Nowshera-Bhimber with the ability to switch between the two. A third division would be allocated to the Mendhar-Kotli-Mirpur axis in two columns. Pakistan would probably understand that some move was afoot at this stage to the sector defended by 19 Infantry Division. The Pakistanis would then move the 7 & 9 infantry divisions based at Peshawar to assist in their defence. However, it is not certain that these two divisions would be available entirely since the Afghan border is volatile at the best of times and the situation in Afghanistan is very fluid.

Nonetheless, assuming these formations begin an eastward movement, Pakistan's Army Reserve South would start mobilizing at Multan. At this stage, India's three Strike Corps would begin a forward movement. The plan as envisaged by Indian planners is for 1 Corps to face Army Reserve North and 2 & 21 Corps to face Army Reserve South.

The offensive would begin in the Ladakh sector with two brigades attacking from Kargil along with two brigades from the Northern Kashmir holding division tasked with straightening the Line of Control in the Tithwal-Bugina bulge sector. The three mountain divisions mentioned earlier would then commence their offensive which would probably face extremely stiff resistance from the Pakistani infantry divisions facing them. Compared to the dashing manoeuvre warfare employed during the Brasstacks exercise, the current Indian army high command is fully convinced that their present offensive plans would be more akin to the 'meat-grinding' assaults of the Second World War.

As Pakistan's strategic depth was eroded around Islamabad and with its Army HQ at Rawalpindi fixed on the worsening situation at Mirpur, Army Reserve North would be committed to action. ARN would attempt an offensive aimed at the Jammu-Pathankot corridor while crossing the river Ravi aimed at threatening Gurdaspur-Pathankot.

These operations would be met by India's 1 Corps which would engage Army Reserve North in a savage battle of attrition, forcing Pakistan to move 9 division to the Mirpur sector, where the Indian offensive continues, while 7 division moved, along with 30 Corps, to reinforce Army Reserve North. In the meantime, the Indian and Pakistani air forces would engage in their own battle of attrition, with the former waging a heavy counter-air offensive whilst engaging in a massive offensive-air-support operation for the Indian army.

With the Indian offensive overcoming its opponents in the Kashmir region and Army Reserve North, and its reinforcements, engaged with India's 1 Corps in a battle of attrition, Pakistan's army high command would prefer that Army Reserve South be kept out of action as long as possible. However, since the whole object of the Indian plan is to inflict heavy attrition on Pakistan's armed forces, it would be essential for Army Reserve South to be neutralized.

Sawhney believes that India would use its Desert Corps (12 Corps) to draw ARS into action. 12 Corps would launch a limited offensive aimed south of Rahimyar Khan to which Army Reserve South would respond with a thrust to its north. The Indian Holding Corps, with their RAPIDS, would probably find themselves under heavy pressure from the powerful ARS. At this stage, with ARS fully committed, India would spring its trap with 2 & 21 Corps, along with massive air support, launching out together along a very narrow front aimed at punching through 31 Corps and falling on the soft under-belly of Army Reserve South which would then be destroyed in detail.

In this scenario, the fighting which has lasted between two and four weeks, has left Pakistan's armed forces severely depleted, if not almost destroyed. Army Reserve South has been destroyed along with the Pakistani formations in the Rajasthan/Gujarat sector. Indian forces have made gains along the Line of Control, severely eroding Pakistan's strategic depth in the region of Islamabad and Army Reserve North and its reinforcing formations have been mauled by 1 Corps, Indian Holding Corps and the Indian Air Force.

What is significant is that Pakistan would not have suffered any major territorial losses. No Indian offensive actually seized much land and in no case was the existence of Pakistan actually threatened. While nuclear threats and counter-threats might be traded, Pakistan would probably not feel quite so compelled to go nuclear as it would if its very survival was at stake.

India's gamble is that with such a mauling of its military capability and since Pakistan has neither the money or the resources to re-build such a large and powerful military machine again, Pakistan might be far more amenable to a permanent settlement of the Kashmir dispute and other outstanding matters. Since India would hold a major advantage in that Pakistan could no longer rival India militarily, such a settlement would probably go in India's favour. At least that is the Indian plan. Whether or not any permanent settlement over Kashmir can be achieved after such a war remains a matter for speculation.

The most important point to note in this scenario is that in no case would India be seeking to grap large areas of Pakistani territory. Pakistan's existence will not be endangered so would Pakistan risk using nuclear weapons on the battlefield ? Having said this, it should further be pointed out that there is a lot of room for misinterpretation in this scenario. For example, will Pakistan be able to distinguish between a limited Indian advance and a full scale invasion? At what stage would Pakistan consider its existence to be threatened ?

After discussions with a number of retired Indian officers - specifically about this question of misinterpretation - the only answers that could be provided revolved around the fact that a limited Indian penetration would be along a broad front and have limited depth while a full invasion would have areas of narrow but deep penetrations into Pakistani territory. The officers believed that Pakistan would have no difficulty in differentiating between the two and as such the question of misinterpretation did not arise.
*
The Tactical Use of Nuclear Weapons: Advantages & Disadvantages

Having looked at the areas in which nuclear weapons might be applied, it is now appropriate to examine the 'pros' and 'cons' of using nuclear weapons on the South Asian battlefield. The first question that has to be answered is how nuclear weapons can be used tactically ?

Like the American and Russian - and possibly the Chinese - armed forces, the Indian and Pakistani military establishments, since the tests of May 1998, are likely to eventually have access to weapons in the very low yield - 0.1 - 4 kiloton - range. However, the nuclear weapons most likely to be used on the South Asian battlefield might range between 5 and 20 kilotons owing to difficulties in minaturization. These weapons are fairly large - by Western battlefield standards - and it is extremely difficult to differentiate between 'tactical' and 'strategic' nuclear weapons in the India-Pakistan context.

For defending forces, either Indian or Pakistani, nuclear weapons might be used to block attacking units crossing obstacles - e.g. rivers. To this end, the defending forces would adopt a mobile defence posture, which would present a difficult target for a retaliatory nuclear strike. The nuclear weapons would be used as the attacking force concentrates to overcome a defensive position or obstacle. This would require a degree of advanced warning to the defending units and this might be detected.

As far as offensive operations are concerned, these would necessarily be planned around the use of nuclear weapons. The attacking forces would remain dispersed and only concentrate rapidly to attack. The objective of this is to present as few worthwhile nuclear targets as possible. In addition, the attacker would aim to destroy the enemy's nuclear capability and, perhaps more importantly, the controlling Headquarters.

In order to perform these tasks, in both defence and offence, the armies must possess mobile reserves and strike formations with a preponderance of armour and mechanized infantry and possess excellent intelligence. In this regard, both the Indian and Pakistani armies have such forces in sizeable numbers, the Indian Strike Corps and RAPIDS and Pakistan's Army Reserve North and South. This mechanization was carried out as part of the evolving conventional military doctrine, but, as can be seen, also prepares both armies for the use of battlefield nuclear weapons in South Asia.

However, there are a number of very serious constraints that mitigate against the battlefield use of South Asia. The first, and perhaps the most important, of these is the stigma attached to being only the second country in the world to use nuclear weapons. Certainly India, for example, would be very much restrained from using nuclear weapons in the initial stages of any attack on Pakistan. Similarly, Pakistan would be very wary of using nuclear weapons for tactical gain. Both sides would only use nuclear weapons in the event of their very existence being threatened, not just to gain a battlefield advantage.

In addition to this, there are limitations to the success of a nuclear strike on an enemy position. A Pakistani attack on an Indian Strike Corps, as mentioned earlier, would be met by intense anti-aircraft fire - in addition to Indian fighters. This does not apply, at least not to the same extent, to an Indian attack on a major Pakistani formation, owing to the limited variety of air defence weapons available to the Pakistani army.

An attack on a well dispersed, mechanized combat force would not be catastrophic. Armoured vehicles in both armies are designed to operate in NBC conditions and furthermore, unless the unit is almost at the centre of the blast ( 'Ground Zero' ) it is highly possible that the MBTs and APCs would provide significant protection from the blast and radiation effects. This means that the principal offensive formations of both armies would be rather less vulnerable targets than would be ideal. The holding formations - heavily dug in and in well-constructed concrete bunkers and behind the ditch-cum-bund and canal defences - would be more vulnerable.However, even these, with the protection afforded by the fixed defences might not suffer as much as hoped as these defences would probably survive a nuclear strike. The most vulnerable units would be lone battalions or brigades in isolated areas. Moreover, weapons in the 0.1-4 kiloton range would be of little utility against these fortifications and substantial portions of the defences may be able to survive blasts up to 20 kilotons.

There is also a major problem of providing intelligence to friendly forces in the area of a nuclear blast. It is unlikely that either army would want to have sizeable numbers of friendly forces caught either at the centre or in the vicinity of a nuclear strike. In order to prevent this, instructions for dispersal, issuing of protective equipment and constructing shelters would have to be given. There may also have to be large scale issues of NBC protective gear and decontamination and monitoring equipment. Moreover, medical units would also have to be alerted to the possibilty of the use of nuclear weapons so as to cater for battlefield casualties.

These preparations would probably be noticed by the enemy, thus eliminating the essential element of surprise. In addition, given the fact that only the Southern Rajasthan/Gujarat sectors are really suitable for tactical nuclear warfare, the disastrous effects of using NBC gear on combat efficiency would have to be taken into account.

Perhaps the ultimate deterrent to the tactical use of nuclear weapons is the threat of massive retaliation. In the absence of a clear nuclear doctirne, neither side is fully aware of where the nuclear threshold lies. Would either India or Pakistan risk a concentrated nuclear attack on each other's cities in retaliation for a nuclear strike on a battlefield target ? This is hardly likely, however, in the absence of clearly stated policies and nuclear doctrines, such a miscalculation cannot be ruled out. Ultimately tactical nuclear restraint revolves around the vulnerability of South Asian population centres - civilians will pay the price for any nuclear miscalculation on the battlefield.

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## DaRk WaVe

> *An indigenous MBT - the Al-Khalid - has failed to materialise*.



really!!! 



> These defences, combined with the existing natural ground features make large-scale mechanized operations virtually impossible. These linear defences are extremely formidable, since the ditch-cum-bunds are liberally laced with diffused and well concealed concrete bunkers which have considerable defensive firepower and are difficult to locate, even with thermal imaging. This effectively limits operations to defensive positions with only local offensive capability.



Recently General Lamba said he can reach Rawalpindi in 48 hours 
but over all the article is all right..



> civilians will pay the price for any nuclear miscalculation on the battlefield.



Indeed :-|



> *The Consequences of Nuclear Conflict between India and Pakistan ​*
> NRDC's nuclear experts think about the unthinkable, using state-of-the-art nuclear war simulation software to assess the crisis in South Asia.
> 
> The months-long military standoff between India and Pakistan intensified several weeks ago when suspected Islamic militants killed more than 30 people at an Indian base in the disputed territory of Kashmir. As U.S. diplomatic pressure to avert war intensifies, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is going to India and Pakistan this week to discuss with his South Asian counterparts the results of a classified Pentagon study that concludes that a nuclear war between these countries could result in 12 million deaths.
> 
> NRDC (Natural Resources Defense Council) has conducted its own analysis of the consequences of nuclear war in South Asia. Prior to this most recent crisis we calculated two nuclear scenarios. The first assumes 10 Hiroshima-sized explosions with no fallout; the second assumes 24 nuclear explosions with significant radioactive fallout. Below is a discussion of the two scenarios in detail and an exploration of several additional issues regarding nuclear war in South Asia.
> 
> 
> *Indian and Pakistani Nuclear Forces*
> 
> It is difficult to determine the actual size and composition of India's and Pakistan's nuclear arsenals, but NRDC estimates that both countries have a total of 50 to 75 weapons. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, we believe India has about 30 to 35 nuclear warheads, slightly fewer than Pakistan, which may have as many as 48.
> 
> Both countries have fission weapons, similar to the early designs developed by the United States in the late 1940s and early 1950s. NRDC estimates their explosive yields are 5 to 25 kilotons (1 kiloton is equivalent to 1,000 tons of TNT). By comparison, the yield of the weapon the United States exploded over Hiroshima was 15 kilotons, while the bomb exploded over Nagasaki was 21 kilotons. According to a recent NRDC discussion with a senior Pakistani military official, Pakistan's main nuclear weapons are mounted on missiles. India's nuclear weapons are reportedly gravity bombs deployed on fighter aircraft.
> 
> NRDC's Nuclear Program initially developed the software used to calculate the consequences of a South Asian nuclear war to examine and analyze the U.S. nuclear war planning process. We combined Department of Energy and Department of Defense computer codes with meteorological and demographic data to model what would happen in various kinds of attacks using different types of weapons. Our June 2001 report, "The U.S. Nuclear War Plan: A Time for Change," is available at NRDC: The U.S. Nuclear War Plan: A Time for Change.
> 
> 
> *Scenario: 10 Bombs on 10 South Asian Cities*
> 
> For our first scenario we used casualty data from the Hiroshima bomb to estimate what would happen if bombs exploded over 10 large South Asian cities: five in India and five in Pakistan. (The results were published in "The Risks and Consequences of Nuclear War in South Asia," by NRDC physicist Matthew McKinzie and Princeton scientists Zia Mian, A. H. Nayyar and M. V. Ramana, a chapter in Smitu Kothari and Zia Mian (editors), "Out of the Nuclear Shadow" (Dehli: Lokayan and Rainbow Publishers, 2001).)
> 
> The 15-kiloton yield of the Hiroshima weapon is approximately the size of the weapons now in the Indian and Pakistani nuclear arsenals. The deaths and severe injuries experienced at Hiroshima were mainly a function of how far people were from ground zero. Other factors included whether people were in buildings or outdoors, the structural characteristics of the buildings themselves, and the age and health of the victims at the time of the attack. The closer to ground zero, the higher fatality rate. Further away there were fewer fatalities and larger numbers of injuries. The table below summarizes the first nuclear war scenario by superimposing the Hiroshima data onto five Indian and five Pakistan cities with densely concentrated populations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As in the case of the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in this scenario the 10 bombs over Indian and Pakistani cities would be exploded in the air, which maximized blast damage and fire but creates no fallout. On August 6, 1945, the United States exploded an untested uranium-235 gun-assembly bomb, nicknamed "Little Boy," 1,900 feet above Hiroshima. The city was home to an estimated 350,000 people; about 140,000 died by the end of the year. Three days later, at 11:02 am, the United States exploded a plutonium implosion bomb nicknamed "Fat Man" 1,650 feet above Nagasaki. About 70,000 of the estimated 270,000 residents died by the end of the year.
> 
> Ten Hiroshima-size explosions over 10 major cities in India and Pakistan would kill as many as three to four times more people per bomb than in Japan because of the higher urban densities in Indian and Pakistani cities.
> 
> *Scenario: 24 Ground Bursts*
> 
> In January, NRDC calculated the consequences of a much more severe nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan. It first appeared as a sidebar in the January 14, 2002, issue of Newsweek ("A Face-Off with Nuclear Stakes"). This scenario calculated the consequences of 24 nuclear explosions detonated on the ground -- unlike the Hiroshima airburst -- resulting in significant amounts of lethal radioactive fallout.
> 
> Exploding a nuclear bomb above the ground does not produce fallout. For example, the United States detonated "Little Boy" weapon above Hiroshima at an altitude of 1,900 feet. At this height, the radioactive particles produced in the explosion were small and light enough to rise into the upper atmosphere, where they were carried by the prevailing winds. Days to weeks later, after the radioactive bomb debris became less "hot," these tiny particles descended to earth as a measurable radioactive residue, but not at levels of contamination that would cause immediate radiation sickness or death.
> 
> Unfortunately, it is easier to fuse a nuclear weapon to detonate on impact than it is to detonate it in the air -- and that means fallout. If the nuclear explosion takes place at or near the surface of the earth, the nuclear fireball would gouge out material and mix it with the radioactive bomb debris, producing heavier radioactive particles. These heavier particles would begin to drift back to earth within minutes or hours after the explosion, producing potentially lethal levels of nuclear fallout out to tens or hundreds of kilometers from the ground zero. The precise levels depend on the explosive yield of the weapon and the prevailing winds.
> 
> For the second scenario, we calculated the fallout patterns and casualties for a hypothetical nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan in which each country targeted major cities. We chose target cities throughout Pakistan and in northwestern India to take into account the limited range of Pakistani missiles or aircraft. The target cities, listed in the table below, include the capitals of Islamabad and New Dehli, and large cities, such as Karachi and Bombay. In this scenario, we assumed that a dozen, 25-kiloton warheads would be detonated as ground bursts in Pakistan and another dozen in India, producing substantial fallout.
> 
> The devastation that would result from fallout would exceed that of blast and fire. NRDC's second scenario would produce far more horrific results than the first scenario because there would be more weapons, higher yields, and extensive fallout. In some large cities, we assumed more than one bomb would be used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NRDC calculated that 22.1 million people in India and Pakistan would be exposed to lethal radiation doses of 600 rem or more in the first two days after the attack. Another 8 million people would receive a radiation dose of 100 to 600 rem, causing severe radiation sickness and potentially death, especially for the very young, old or infirm. NRDC calculates that as many as 30 million people would be threatened by the fallout from the attack, roughly divided between the two countries.
> 
> Besides fallout, blast and fire would cause substantial destruction within roughly a mile-and-a-half of the bomb craters. NRDC estimates that 8.1 million people live within this radius of destruction.
> 
> Most Indians (99 percent of the population) and Pakistanis (93 percent of the population) would survive the second scenario. Their respective military forces would be still be intact to continue and even escalate the conflict.
> 
> *Thinking the Unthinkable*
> 
> After India and Pakistan held nuclear tests in 1998, experts have debated whether their nuclear weapons contribute to stability in South Asia. Experts who argue that the nuclear standoff promotes stability have pointed to the U.S.-Soviet Union Cold War as an example of how deterrence ensures military restraint.
> 
> NRDC disagrees. There are major differences between the Cold War and the current South Asian crisis. Unlike the U.S.-Soviet experience, these two countries have a deep-seated hatred of one another and have fought three wars since both countries became independent. At least part of the current crisis may be seen as Hindu nationalism versus Muslim fundamentalism.
> 
> A second difference is India and Pakistan's nuclear arsenals are much smaller than those of the United States and Russia. The U.S. and Russian arsenals truly represent the capability to destroy each other's society beyond recovery. While the two South Asia scenarios we have described produce unimaginable loss of life and destruction, they do not reach the level of "mutual assured destruction" that stood as the ultimate deterrent during the Cold War.
> 
> The two South Asian scenarios assume nuclear attacks against cities. During the early Cold War period this was the deterrent strategy of the United States and the Soviet Union. But as both countries introduced technological improvements into their arsenals, they pursued other strategies, targeting each other's nuclear forces, conventional military forces, industry and leadership. India and Pakistan may include these types of targets in their current military planning. For example, attacking large dams with nuclear weapons could result in massive disruption, economic consequences and casualties. Concentrations of military forces and facilities may provide tempting targets as well.
> 
> NRDC: The Consequences of Nuclear Conflict between India and Pakistan

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## vsdoc

Why don't we have more such posts on this forum?

This is pretty detailed info ..... is such info so readily available to both sides?

So in essence, it is impossible for either Pakistan or India to surprise ambush each other ..... if geeks like us (military professional excused of course!) have this information at our disposal!

Wonderful post! Thanks for sharing Mercenary.

I have a question though ..... *how ready would the Pakistani leadership be to nuke its own people were Indian forces to overrun a major Pakistani city, and poised to consolidate and push further?* 

Cheers, Doc

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## ek_indian

emo_girl said:


> really!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Recently General Lamba said he can reach Rawalpindi in 48 hours
> but over all the article is all right..



Article was right in saying. Please keep in mind about the date of the article which is 2001.

This topic does not suggest a specific time line. (I took care but I might have missed up) Even cold start was formulated in 2004. Even in that timelimit used to be 96 hours!!


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## Condor

vsdoc said:


> Why don't we have more such posts on this forum?
> 
> This is pretty detailed info ..... is such info so readily available to both sides?
> 
> 
> I have a question though ..... *how ready would the Pakistani leadership be to nuke its own people were Indian forces to overrun a major Pakistani city, and poised to consolidate and push further?*
> 
> Cheers, Doc



DOC : Sticking to your veterinary practice should be good for your health.


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## vsdoc

Condor said:


> DOC : Sticking to your veterinary practice should be good for your health.



That reminds me ..... you're late for your 7-in-1?

Cheers, Doc

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## Veer

emo_girl said:


> really!!!
> 
> Indeed :-|



From your post,you seems to agree that 99&#37; of Indians and 93% of pakistanis will servive the nuclear war. And Indian armed forces will remain intact to wage a war.

*Then, what is the use of usual rant of Nuclear card by Pakistanis, Indian forces will *crush the Pakistani forces and we will provide the freedom to Sindh, Baluchistan, Pakhtonistan etc. And take back our part of Kashmir occupied by pakistan hence there will be peace in the South Asia and haven of terrorist will turn into a peaceful place in the world.


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## pak-yes

> we will provide the freedom to Sindh, Baluchistan, Pakhtonistan etc




you high on drugs

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## Patriot

Well jokes aside, this stuff is quite good.Almost as good as opium for War Mongering Indians.


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## brahmastra

Thanks for the article Mercinary.

it was really nice reading.


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## Sayyaf

vsdoc said:


> Why don't we have more such posts on this forum?
> 
> This is pretty detailed info ..... is such info so readily available to both sides?
> 
> So in essence, it is impossible for either Pakistan or India to surprise ambush each other ..... if geeks like us (military professional excused of course!) have this information at our disposal!
> 
> Wonderful post! Thanks for sharing Mercenary.
> 
> I have a question though ..... *how ready would the Pakistani leadership be to nuke its own people were Indian forces to overrun a major Pakistani city, and poised to consolidate and push further?*
> 
> Cheers, Doc



lol, don't fantasize too much, it isn't good for your health! BTW this reminds me how the indian general during the 1965 war fantasized about capturing Lahore and having breakfast there, but the next day all his forces were pounded by PAF, so the indians withdrew!

And we ordinary Pakistanis will take up arms to defend our cities so don't think that your army has the ability to "overrun" cities in Pakistan!

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## pak-yes

yup world says that taliban resistance is invincible.Invade Pakistan and Pakistani resistance would 1000x greater than taliban.After all if not pioneers we are the world leaders in unconventional warfare.

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## Condor

vsdoc said:


> That reminds me ..... you're late for your 7-in-1?
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Sorry to inform you that my pet just died. Can't bring it for your 7-in-1.
Do it to yourself if you must.

Cheerio


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## BlackSonic

Thanks... a very good article.


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## Super Falcon

no none going to survive Nuke war dont be fooled our nukes r superior than ur the time ur nuke been launched hole india at that time been history so who will launch them and r u sure those missile be intact when our nukes desimate whole indian in matter of seconds we will send all quto of our nukes to u dont worry


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## Spitfighter

vsdoc said:


> I have a question though ..... *how ready would the Pakistani leadership be to nuke its own people were Indian forces to overrun a major Pakistani city, and poised to consolidate and push further?*
> Cheers, Doc



Doc, 

If I understand the article correctly, the focus isn't going to be so much on capturing territory or their cities, rather all our efforts will be aimed at inflicting as much damage as possible on the Pakistani military. 

Pakistan's primary population centers most notably Lahore and Islamabad are close to the border and are thus extremely vulnerable, however it is in India's interest not to exploit this weakness as any such move is likely to prompt a nuclear strike on major Indian population centers by Pakistan. Moreover, as the article states, India will not attempt any offensives in Punjab. Our efforts will probably be centered in Rajasthan & Gujrat. 

I believe the two basic tenets of the strategy is firstly to force the Pakistani military to come out an fight (as no Pakistani government can ignore an Indian invasion), deteriorate their military beyond 'repair' (Pakistan would probably not be able to amass a military of the size and caliber for a long, long time) and secondly to fend off any Pakistani counter attack so as to deny them any bargaining chips. 

India will not give Pakistan a reason to use nuclear weapons by a) not attacking any major cities and b) not threatening/attempting to sever the country in two. In any case, Pakistan would never attack its own citizens, it would attack ours if we forced their hand.


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## Sayyaf

Spitfighter said:


> Doc,
> 
> If I understand the article correctly, the focus isn't going to be so much on capturing territory or their cities, rather all our efforts will be aimed at inflicting as much damage as possible on the Pakistani military.
> 
> Pakistan's primary population centers most notably Lahore and Islamabad are close to the border and are thus extremely vulnerable, however it is in India's interest not to exploit this weakness as any such move is likely to prompt a nuclear strike on major Indian population centers by Pakistan. Moreover, as the article states, India will probably not attempt any offensives in Punjab. Our efforts will probably be centered in Rajasthan & Gujrat.
> 
> *I believe the two basic tenets of the strategy is firstly to force the Pakistani military to come out an fight (as no Pakistani government can ignore an Indian invasion), deteriorate their military beyond 'repair' (Pakistan would probably not be able to amass a military of the size and caliber for a long, long time) and secondly to fend off any Pakistani counter attack so as to deny them any bargaining chips. *
> 
> India will not given Pakistan a reason to use nuclear weapons by a) not attacking any major cities and b) not threatening/attempting to sever the country in two. In any case, Pakistan would never attack its own citizens, it would attack ours if we forced their hand.



lol, you make it sound as if its nothing, in real life i'd like to see your army do that! Indian army doesn't stand a chance on Pakistani soil!


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## Spitfighter

Sayyaf said:


> lol, you make it sound as if its nothing, in real life i'd like to see your army do that! *Indian army doesn't stand a chance on Pakistani soil!*



I didn't come up with the strategy and I'm no military professional. I'm sure when the Indian military came up with the strategy they would have done so with a realistic assessment of their own capabilities. 

Feel free to disagree but please elaborate on your statements in the future. As in why you think the IM doesn't stand a chance, how the PA will respond etc. 

[PLEASE DO NOT post youtube videos, make senseless statements and kindly take the time to outline your rationale.]


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## Vassnti

A scenario that has a base count for civilian casualties of 24 million it would go up from there with cancers fallout and starvation as infrastructure broke down. 

How many of those would be children?

Perhaps it is time Pakistan and India realised they have both grown to powerfull for war to even be considered.


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## Windjammer

I have a question though ..... *how ready would the Pakistani leadership be to nuke its own people were Indian forces to overrun a major Pakistani city, and poised to consolidate and push further?* 

Cheers, Doc[/QUOTE]
Every one has a right to dream and you are no exception.
However in 2002, after mobilizing some one million forces, and remaining on the border for almost a year and losing over 300 soldiers without a shot being fired and then beating a hasty retreat, you shouldn't portray your dreams into what your forces are incompetent of achiving, hence it's ...... CHERIO DOC. !!!

Pakistan has more nuclear weapons than India, claim US experts - India - The Times of India

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## Sayyaf

Spitfighter said:


> I didn't come up with the strategy and I'm no military professional. I'm sure when the Indian military came up with the strategy they would have done so with a realistic assessment of their own capabilities.
> 
> Feel free to disagree but please elaborate on your statements in the future. As in why you think the IM doesn't stand a chance, how the PA will respond etc.
> 
> [PLEASE DO NOT post youtube videos, make senseless statements and kindly take the time to outline your rationale.]



PA? lol, why is it always about PA, you indians are a funny bunch! We don't need the PA, the Pakistani people themselves can deal with indian army! don't forget it wasn't the PA who captured 40% of Kashmir, it was regular ordinary Pakistani tribes who captured it, the PA entered the war later on!

But i understand the mentality of indian army, they dream to much and too much dreaming can lead to bad things!

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## Sayyaf

Vassnti said:


> A scenario that has a base count for civilian casualties of 24 million it would go up from there with cancers fallout and starvation as infrastructure broke down.
> 
> How many of those would be children?
> 
> Perhaps it is time Pakistan and India realised they have both grown to powerfull for war to even be considered.



Lol, bro don't worry, if these indians want war then BRING it on! 

We Muslims have nothing to be afraid of, remember in history Muslims have given a lot of sacrifices! From the first crusade and the mongol invasions to the recent massacres of Gujrat, Muslims have been killed, but for us Muslims death is not a problem because the life of this world is temporary, we don't fear death! These indians can continue to dream about capturing our cities (which won't happen)!

We're not afraid of indian military!


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## Mercenary

Basically, Pakistan has 10 Corps along with Strategic Corps for Nuclear Weapons.

Its Main Strike Corp also known as Army Reserve North is composed of I Corp and II Corp. In an event of War Indian plan is to tie them them down in a battle of attrition since a war of maneuver in Punjab seems very unlikely.

In Kashmir, Pakistan has X Corp, which will be reinforced by XI and XII Corps from the West along with Northern Area Corps. They will be entrenched in a defensive formation along the LOC.

Pakistan's 2nd Main Strike Corps is known as Army Reserve South and is composed of IV, XXX and XXXI Corps. The V Corp will function as a strategic reserve. It is here around Southern Punjab/Northern Sindh where India can wage a war of maneuver that it will attack with their two main strike corps and will simply overwhelm the Pakistani Corps.

This is Pakistan's Army biggest weakness.

And the article is exactly right, in 3-4 weeks, the Pakistani Army will crumble under the immense weight of an Indian Offensive.

What Pakistan needs to do is this, IMO:

1 - Create a General Reserve Army of 2 Corps (2 Mechanized and 4 Infantry Divisions and 8 Independent Brigades). Around 120,000 men, 750-1,000 Tanks and supporting artillery, mortar, anti-aircraft and anti-tank brigades. This Army would only be activated in a time of war with India. Its aim would be to plug the hole should front-line troops of Army Reserve South crumble under the Indian onslaught.

2 - Add another Corp to the Sindh Command and move the Sindh Command from a Reserve Army to frontline troops. In a time of war, the Sindh Command composed of V Corp and another Corp will give India pause should it chose to launch an offensive in Southern Punjab.

In total, Pakistan needs to increase the size of its Army from 550,000 to about 600,000 active duty men along with increasing the Reserve Force from 528,000 to 650,000 men along with 1,000 - 1,500 Tanks, and numerous anti-tank, artillery and anti-aircraft units.

This should be enough for Pakistan to wage an effective defensive war with India and prevent any territory from falling into Indian Hands.


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## vsdoc

Spitfighter said:


> Doc,
> 
> If I understand the article correctly, the focus isn't going to be so much on capturing territory or their cities, rather all our efforts will be aimed at inflicting as much damage as possible on the Pakistani military.
> 
> Pakistan's primary population centers most notably Lahore and Islamabad are close to the border and are thus extremely vulnerable, however it is in India's interest not to exploit this weakness as any such move is likely to prompt a nuclear strike on major Indian population centers by Pakistan. Moreover, as the article states, India will not attempt any offensives in Punjab. Our efforts will probably be centered in Rajasthan & Gujrat.
> 
> I believe the two basic tenets of the strategy is firstly to force the Pakistani military to come out an fight (as no Pakistani government can ignore an Indian invasion), deteriorate their military beyond 'repair' (Pakistan would probably not be able to amass a military of the size and caliber for a long, long time) and secondly to fend off any Pakistani counter attack so as to deny them any bargaining chips.
> 
> India will not give Pakistan a reason to use nuclear weapons by a) not attacking any major cities and b) not threatening/attempting to sever the country in two. In any case, Pakistan would never attack its own citizens, it would attack ours if we forced their hand.



Thanks Spitfighter,

I got the gist of the article in that its less an invasion and more a one-time capability destruction.

My point was ..... the oft quoted Pakistani use of tactical nukes on advancing Indian army columns in the open desert could be offset by a two-prong blitzkrieg type assault where the Indian army overruns both Islamabad and Lahore before Pakistan can react.

What happens then? The enemy is in your house .....

Will Pakistan go nuclear? Where? 

In the desert?

On their overrun metropolises (including central command Islamabad)? 

On Indian civilian targets as a first strike? 

Coz any which way you look at it ..... 40 kms or 60 kms or 100 kms ..... if the Indian army advance is not met with the full force deployment of the Pakistan army ...... then till where does the Indian army advance to get at the remainder and neutralise them?

There will be cities in the way ..... and their so-called axis of tolerance.

Do we chase them all the way to Afghanistan?

Or will we have another Iraq as the top brass of the Pakistan army melts away overnight out of the country, and the army regulars hurriedly go civilian?

Cheers, Doc


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## devd

Do we really need to attack Pakistan, It already on the verge of collapsing (well done RAW).


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## Windjammer

In any future conflict, keep the 1971 scenario in equation as tables might turn. While the Indian Army is engaged in a full fledge war with Pakistan, it will also have to fend off the home threat as well.
The low level insurgencies in half a dozen states would indeed flare up.
Forget about the Iraq possibility, it's more plausible like Afghanistan, the Indian forces may as well retreat to the sanctuary of the Indian Capital, with States declaring Independence all around. !!!


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## Windjammer

devd said:


> Do we really need to attack Pakistan, It already on the verge of collapsing (well done RAW).



And the Cows may fly.


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> In any future conflict, keep the 1971 scenario in equation as tables might turn. While the Indian Army is engaged in a full fledge war with Pakistan, it will also have to fend off the home threat as well.
> The low level insurgencies in half a dozen states would indeed flare up.
> Forget about the Iraq possibility, it's more plausible like Afghanistan, the Indian forces may as well retreat to the sanctuary of the Indian Capital, with States declaring Independence all around. !!!



Yes now I think its your turn to dream..BTW what stuff are you using ??


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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Yes now I think its your turn to dream..BTW what stuff are you using ??



Nothing as strong as you people are hooked on.


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Nothing as strong as you people are hooked on.



Atleast our people didnt said we will get support internally from enemy country..I think you are having the strong stuff than ours


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## gogbot

*Wait a minute this article was published in 2001.

When the Nuclear stand of took place.

I guess it was in line with the current events of the time. We all remember how close India came to launching an invasion and how close Musharraf came to using the nuke's . This was right after the Attack on the parliament i believe.

But its been over 9 years and the situation on the ground has changed dramatically since then both logistically and Politically. All who read have wasted their time.
*

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## fatman17

its a good article if it serves the indian POV and vice-versa.
what a waste of time with futile 'jingoism'


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## Condor

vsdoc said:


> Thanks Spitfighter,
> 
> I got the gist of the article in that its less an invasion and more a one-time capability destruction.
> 
> My point was ..... the oft quoted Pakistani use of tactical nukes on advancing Indian army columns in the open desert could be offset by a two-prong blitzkrieg type assault where the Indian army overruns both Islamabad and Lahore before Pakistan can react.
> 
> What happens then? The enemy is in your house .....
> 
> Will Pakistan go nuclear? Where?
> 
> In the desert?
> 
> On their overrun metropolises (including central command Islamabad)?
> 
> On Indian civilian targets as a first strike?
> 
> Coz any which way you look at it ..... 40 kms or 60 kms or 100 kms ..... if the Indian army advance is not met with the full force deployment of the Pakistan army ...... then till where does the Indian army advance to get at the remainder and neutralise them?
> 
> There will be cities in the way ..... and their so-called axis of tolerance.
> 
> Do we chase them all the way to Afghanistan?
> 
> Or will we have another Iraq as the top brass of the Pakistan army melts away overnight out of the country, and the army regulars hurriedly go civilian?
> 
> Cheers, Doc


This one's a topper Doc - I just can't believe you could trump your own Army Chief.

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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> In any future conflict, keep the 1971 scenario in equation as tables might turn. While the Indian Army is engaged in a full fledge war with Pakistan, it will also have to fend off the home threat as well.
> The low level insurgencies in half a dozen states would indeed flare up.
> Forget about the Iraq possibility, it's more plausible like Afghanistan, the Indian forces may as well retreat to the sanctuary of the Indian Capital, with States declaring Independence all around. !!!



While you are predicting this for INdia in a future scenario, shouldnt you be more worried about Pakistan where it has already started.


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## karan.1970

Condor said:


> Sorry to inform you that my pet just died. Can't bring it for your 7-in-1.
> Do it to yourself if you must.
> 
> Cheerio



Dont think he meant 7-in-1 for your pet..

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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Thanks Spitfighter,
> 
> I got the gist of the article in that its less an invasion and more a one-time capability destruction.
> 
> My point was ..... the oft quoted Pakistani use of tactical nukes on advancing Indian army columns in the open desert could be offset by a two-prong blitzkrieg type assault where the Indian army overruns both Islamabad and Lahore before Pakistan can react.
> 
> What happens then? The enemy is in your house .....
> 
> Will Pakistan go nuclear? Where?
> 
> In the desert?
> 
> On their overrun metropolises (including central command Islamabad)?
> 
> On Indian civilian targets as a first strike?
> 
> Coz any which way you look at it ..... 40 kms or 60 kms or 100 kms ..... if the Indian army advance is not met with the full force deployment of the Pakistan army ...... then till where does the Indian army advance to get at the remainder and neutralise them?
> 
> There will be cities in the way ..... and their so-called axis of tolerance.
> 
> Do we chase them all the way to Afghanistan?
> 
> Or will we have another Iraq as the top brass of the Pakistan army melts away overnight out of the country, and the army regulars hurriedly go civilian?
> 
> Cheers, Doc




And Snap! Time to wake up.


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## ice_man

Pakistanis motto to safeguard the land,ideological & intellectual boundaries of the FATHER LAND !

so if it comes to pushing the red button you can put your family jewels on the line pakistan will do it to safeguard itself from india! never will we ever give an inch of our FATHERLAND to india no quarter would be given to the indian aggression....

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> While you are predicting this for INdia in a future scenario, shouldnt you be more worried about Pakistan where it has already started.



When MM Singh commented that Naxal Maoists represent the biggest threat to India's integrity, I believe he was addressing you people.


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> When MM Singh commented that Naxal Maoists represent the biggest threat to India's integrity, I believe he was addressing you people.



Maoists are patriotic people..they fight for their ideologies and rights.dont expect them to help you in case of war


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## ek_indian

^^^

You are wasting your time who don't have an iota of knowledge of these movements.

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## vsdoc

Balochistan holds the key.

The Indian Navy holds the key.

There will be a punch through *** in the north.

Karachi will be blockaded or go down in the South.

Balochis will rise from the West in a pincer movement ..... or dry rot from within.

The Afghan northern alliance will step up its efforts in the north-west. 

Pakistan before it realises it could well become an encircled landlocked country.

Not knowing which way to turn.

Cheers, Doc


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Balochistan holds the key.
> 
> The Indian Navy holds the key.
> 
> There will be a punch through *** in the north.
> 
> Karachi will be blockaded or go down in the South.
> 
> Balochis will rise from the West in a pincer movement ..... or dry rot from within.
> 
> The Afghan northern alliance will step up its efforts in the north-west.
> 
> Pakistan before it realises it could well become an encircled landlocked country.
> 
> Not knowing which way to turn.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Doc the medical marijuana is for the patients and not for the doctors to smoke. Seriously because the side effects of the thing on you a quite visible through your posts. As I said earlier time to wake up. And smell the

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## Windjammer

vsdoc said:


> Balochistan holds the key.
> 
> The Indian Navy holds the key.
> 
> There will be a punch through *** in the north.
> 
> Karachi will be blockaded or go down in the South.
> 
> Balochis will rise from the West in a pincer movement ..... or dry rot from within.
> 
> The Afghan northern alliance will step up its efforts in the north-west.
> 
> Pakistan before it realises it could well become an encircled landlocked country.
> 
> Not knowing which way to turn.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Assam seems like an ideal place to execute all your dreams.


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## Khajur

Windjammer said:


> When MM Singh commented that Naxal Maoists represent the biggest threat to India's integrity, I believe he was addressing you people.



Maoists may represent the biggest threat to indias security(economic i guess) but not to its integrity.And let me assure u it has miniscule in effect compared to random numbers of existential threats pakistan currently faces.


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## Condor

^^^
Really is much in need of the 7-in-1.


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## Khajur

Windjammer said:


> Assam seems like an ideal place to execute all your dreams.
> 
> 
> 
> IKq4lTbeUr8[/media] - YouTube Pakistani flag hoisted in Assam India



Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

The pakistani flag were hoisted by some miscreant BD immigrants *just after after communal riots broke out between the native bodo tribals of Assam and the BD settlers.*

Bodo tribals blames the fundametalist party like Jamat of Bangladesh for instigating BD settlers to harass Bodo tribals leding to communal riots.

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## Khajur

vsdoc said:


> Balochistan holds the key.
> 
> The Indian Navy holds the key.
> 
> There will be a punch through *** in the north.
> 
> Karachi will be blockaded or go down in the South.
> 
> Balochis will rise from the West in a pincer movement ..... or dry rot from within.
> 
> The Afghan northern alliance will step up its efforts in the north-west.
> 
> Pakistan before it realises it could well become an encircled landlocked country.
> 
> Not knowing which way to turn.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Kya doc, abhi bachche ki jaan lega kya...


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## Windjammer

Khajur said:


> Maoists may represent the biggest threat to indias security(economic i guess) but not to its integrity.And let me assure u it has miniscule in effect compared to random numbers of existential threats pakistan currently faces.



Just the tip of iceberg my friend,
And what external threat are you pointing to. ?
Remember the PA Chief is not sitting in the President house.


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## ssheppard

I really love the comments that say if war breaks out ...every insurgent group in India would raise up arms against Indian army and force India to implode.....thereby helping Pakistan achieve victory.... and safely assume that in case of war the so called TTP would join Pakistan army Against... Indian Army....



Nice Dreams.....


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## gogbot

Windjammer said:


> When MM Singh commented that Naxal Maoists represent the biggest threat to India's integrity, I believe he was addressing you people.



Has anyone in Pakistan addressed the people yet and said that Taliban is the biggest threat to Pakistan.



we are acknowledging a weakness and working to resolve it.
what about you ?

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## ek_indian

Khajur said:


> Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> 
> The pakistani flag were hoisted by some miscreant BD immigrants *just after after communal riots broke out between the native bodo tribals of Assam and the BD settlers.*
> 
> Bodo tribals blames the fundametalist party like Jamat of Bangladesh for instigating BD settlers to harass Bodo tribals leding to communal riots.



I again repeat...these guys don't know anything about these movements. 

Anyways, they can wage war with India till 1000 years. Just need to mention one thing.

_We have seen lesser resources for fuling insergencies over a bigger area. Just think what would happen if words "lesser" and "bigger" are replaced._ 

I am not trying to flame here. Just wanted to point that if proxy war continued (as they are) then it would be much more harmful for other nations rather than India.


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Just the tip of iceberg my friend,
> And what external threat are you pointing to. ?
> Remember the PA Chief is not sitting in the President house.



There is a difference between existential and external dude..


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## Windjammer

Khajur said:


> Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> 
> The pakistani flag were hoisted by some miscreant BD immigrants *just after after communal riots broke out between the native bodo tribals of Assam and the BD settlers.*
> 
> Bodo tribals blames the fundametalist party like Jamat of Bangladesh for instigating BD settlers to harass Bodo tribals leding to communal riots.



My Dear, it just takes a little spark to turn into a great ball of fire.
Don't ignore the fact that same is practiced every year on 14th August in Occupied Kashmir.


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## Condor

Does the good ol Doc even have the faintest idea what's it like fighting a war
Thinking from the comfort of his armchair that the IA can pass off easily thru Pakistan as a knife thru butter.
It is not the Doctor patient relationship where the patient submits himself/herself for examination as the Doc has gotten used to - pushing the needle, taking a swab and doing much else as he pleased.
Cheerio


----------



## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> My Dear, it just takes a little spark to turn into a great ball of fire.
> Don't ignore the fact that same is practiced every year on 14th August in Occupied Kashmir.



First was maosits ,then went to Assam and now to Kashmir..you foget to visit south India

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## Khajur

Windjammer said:


> Just the tip of iceberg my friend,
> And what external threat are you pointing to. ?
> Remember the PA Chief is not sitting in the President house.



If u see iceberg or mountain ...swimming dragon its ur problem.
The thing is india has never been much powerful in its independent history like its today.



> Remember the PA Chief is not sitting in the President house.



whereever he is sitting ,he better fortify it ,before another Taliban raid.


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## Windjammer

gogbot said:


> Has anyone in Pakistan addressed the people yet and said that Taliban is the biggest threat to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> we are acknowledging a weakness and working to resolve it.
> what about you ?



I suppose the Pakistani nation has been told that the PA is fighting Martians in the tribal areas.
More Talibans are now being killed by the village defense committees than probably by the armed forces. Thank You.


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## gogbot

seiko said:


> First was maosits ,then went to Assam and now to Kashmir..you foget to visit south India



dam it dude you made me wan to to eat popcorn.


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## Windjammer

Khajur said:


> If u see iceberg or mountain ...swimming dragon its ur problem.
> The thing is india has never been much powerful in its independent history like its today.
> 
> 
> 
> whereever he is sitting ,he better fortify it ,before another Taliban raid.


Whatever floats your boat.

Only yesterday he was visiting the hunting grounds.
Unlike the drama queens across the border, we met the challenges instead of merely pointing fingers of blame.


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## Iggy

gogbot said:


> dam it dude you made me wan to to eat popcorn.



lolz dude make some popcorn and enjoy the fun here  ..


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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> First was maosits ,then went to Assam and now to Kashmir..you foget to visit south India


Thanks for pointing that out
And to think it was the Bombay brain who argued that Pakistan was being encircled.


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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> lolz dude make some popcorn and enjoy the fun here  ..



And thank your Bharat Rakshak for initiating such a spectacular.

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## Khajur

Windjammer said:


> I suppose the Pakistani nation has been told that the PA is fighting Martians in the tribal areas.
> More Talibans are now being killed by the village defense committees than probably by the armed forces. Thank You.



delete.....


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Thanks for pointing that out
> And to think it was the Bombay brain who argued that Pakistan was being encircled.







Windjammer said:


> And thank your Bharat Rakshak for initiating such a spectacular.



Comparing to your innovations they are nothing...


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## Khajur

Windjammer said:


> Whatever floats your boat.
> 
> Only yesterday he was visiting the hunting grounds.
> Unlike the drama queens across the border, we met the challenges instead of merely pointing fingers of blame.





I know he is a busy man.

His hands are full with too much weeds that have crept up and eating pakistan away.I wont like anyone expect an enemy to be in his postion.

I wonder how they save energy to blame RAW/CIA/mossad for all that ails pakistan after the days hardwork

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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Comparing to your innovations they are nothing...



Debating with half a dozen Indians simultaneously must be innovative.

Hope you do your home work next time.

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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Debating with half a dozen Indians simultaneously must be innovative.
> 
> Hope you do your home work next time.



Funny one by one your arguments were flawed and you are suggesting us to do the home work??


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## Patriot

All those Indians smoking opium here talking about invading Pakistan​*Here's something from Pakistan with Love​*​In our nuclear test the mountain literally melted imagine if we nuke Bombay or Bangalore just imagine what will happen to your so called IT CIty

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## Windjammer

Khajur said:


> I know he is a busy man.
> 
> His hands are full with too much weeds that have crept up and eating pakistan away.I wont like anyone expect an enemy to be in his postion.
> 
> I wonder how they save energy to blame RAW/CIA/mossad for all that ails pakistan after the days hardwork



After successfully completing requirements, he must be a satisfied General.
At least his hands are utilized to execute his missions unlike your General who gets high on merely chest thumping.
As for energy, well it's keeping all the dreamers alike awake.
And who ever ends up on the wrong side of him, will need all the help from the likes of CIA/Mossad/RAW and whatever else is out there, but i guess you are oblivious to the reality in essence.


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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Funny one by one your arguments were flawed and you are suggesting us to do the home work??



Since you seem oblivious to your country fellows frivolous rants and digression, your comment on my posts is random.


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## chantpapipart2

Khajur said:


> I know he is a busy man.
> 
> His hands are full with too much weeds that have crept up and eating pakistan away.I wont like anyone expect an enemy to be in his postion.
> 
> I wonder how they save energy to blame RAW/CIA/mossad for all that ails pakistan after the days hardwork


 Dude you rocks...


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## Iggy

Windjammer said:


> Since you seem oblivious to your country fellows frivolous rants and digression, your comment on my posts is random.



Just take a breath and have a cool mind and look at what VS doc has said ..and what you guys were saying in reply to him..And also refer who said all those frivolous rants and digression about India here  ...


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## Windjammer

seiko said:


> Just take a breath and have a cool mind and look at what VS doc has said ..and what you guys were saying in reply to him..And also refer who said all those frivolous rants and digression about India here  ...



I have been following that "Cheers Doc" for a little while now and know exactly what makes him tick. He's a nothing but a flamer, in case you haven't noticed, after spilling his brains in a single post, he took a hike.
BTW, Did i use any abusive language... ???
Hence i am easy and focused.


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## Sayyaf

vsdoc said:


> Thanks Spitfighter,
> 
> I got the gist of the article in that its less an invasion and more a one-time capability destruction.
> 
> My point was ..... the oft quoted Pakistani use of tactical nukes on advancing Indian army columns in the open desert could be offset by a two-prong blitzkrieg type assault where the Indian army *overruns both Islamabad and Lahore before Pakistan can react.
> *
> What happens then? The enemy is in your house .....
> 
> Will Pakistan go nuclear? Where?
> 
> In the desert?
> 
> On their overrun metropolises (including central command Islamabad)?
> 
> On Indian civilian targets as a first strike?
> 
> Coz any which way you look at it ..... 40 kms or 60 kms or 100 kms ..... if the Indian army advance is not met with the full force deployment of the Pakistan army ...... then till where does the Indian army advance to get at the remainder and neutralise them?
> 
> There will be cities in the way ..... and their so-called axis of tolerance.
> 
> Do we chase them all the way to Afghanistan?
> 
> Or will we have another Iraq as the top brass of the Pakistan army melts away overnight out of the country, and the army regulars hurriedly go civilian?
> 
> Cheers, Doc



lol, and will the PA be sleeping at that time? I guess bollywood has gotten to your head!


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## DaRk WaVe

vsdoc said:


> Balochistan holds the key.
> 
> The Indian Navy holds the key.
> 
> There will be a punch through *** in the north.
> 
> Karachi will be blockaded or go down in the South.
> 
> *Balochis will rise from the West in a pincer movement ..... or dry rot from within.*
> 
> *The Afghan northern alliance will step up its efforts in the north-west.*



hahaha man seriosuly I didn't expected this from you Doc

You are neglecting a force called FC with a strength of 60,000, gone are the days when we had FC soldiers with WW2 M1 Garands & bolt action weapons, FC is evolving into a force which have to be reckon with, even we have special operation unit with in FC, with a bit More attention this force can be one hell of a fighting force 














​

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## Sayyaf

vsdoc said:


> Balochistan holds the key.
> 
> The Indian Navy holds the key.
> 
> There will be a punch through *** in the north.
> 
> Karachi will be blockaded or go down in the South.
> 
> Balochis will rise from the West in a pincer movement ..... or dry rot from within.
> 
> The Afghan northern alliance will step up its efforts in the north-west.
> 
> Pakistan before it realises it could well become an encircled landlocked country.
> 
> Not knowing which way to turn.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




Who's going to punch *** from the north? China? We have no enemies to the north

How are you going to blockade from the Souht? Aircraft carriers? We have missiles to take those out!

Balochis don't hate Pakistan, only the few whom your RAW is funding, and i haven't heard from BLA for a long time, MashaAllah PA did a hell of a good job in eliminating those bastards !

Afghan Northern Alliance, lol don't worry we have Afghan Taliban to keep those northern alliance at bay!

Lol, keep dreaming! You indians live in a fantasy world, maybe bollywood has finally took its toll !


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## gogbot

actullay speaking of bollywood how many of you have seen 3 idiots

i just got the chance to watch. good movie


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## third eye

gogbot said:


> actullay speaking of bollywood how many of you have seen 3 idiots
> 
> i just got the chance to watch. good movie



Though slightly off topic, I am not much into watching new movies - I did see this movie.

Among the better movies I have seen. Highly recommended to all.


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## gogbot

third eye said:


> Though slightly off topic, I am not much into watching new movies - I did see this movie.
> 
> Among the better movies I have seen. Highly recommended to all.



Apparently its become the highest grossing bollywood film ever film ever.
ight behind Amir Khans other work Gajini.

I suggest you watch Swades its a really good story movie by SRK, one of his best works and we have A.R.rahaman on the sound tracks as well.


P.S

Mods i know i am being off-topic but plz dont delete my posts, i am not flaming, baiting or trolling.


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## Iggy

third eye said:


> Though slightly off topic, I am not much into watching new movies - I did see this movie.
> 
> Among the better movies I have seen. Highly recommended to all.



I tried to download it from net..turns out the movie i download was ****  I was like the fourth idiot

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## DaRk WaVe

seiko said:


> I tried to download it from net..turns out the movie i download was ****  I was like the fourth idiot





Happens, once i downloaded 'batman' turned out to be something really bad

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## r0ck

seiko said:


> I tried to download it from net..turns out the movie i download was ****  I was like the fourth idiot





emo_girl said:


> Happens, once i downloaded 'batman' turned out to be something really bad



Yeah right. I believe you people. 

@Off Topic (but had to reply).

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## Spitfighter

* W.T.F ???????????????

* 

DEFENCE.PK, does that tell any of you anything? This site is meant to be a place of RATIONAL discourse on matters relating to defense and geopolitics. The entire thread is filled with one liners and smart a$$ comments. 

Can't we discuss the strategy outlined in the article without all this meaningless mudslinging? How is anyone supposed to discuss anything if some kids don't like what they're reading and decide to flame the entire thread!! 



Patriot said:


> All those Indians smoking opium here talking about invading Pakistan​*Here's something from Pakistan with Love​*



I can post some pretty interesting pictures too, what is the point of such comments? Come on man, really. 



> In our nuclear test the mountain literally melted imagine if we nuke Bombay or Bangalore just imagine what will happen to your so called IT CIty



Did you even read the article? Beating your chest and shouting doesn't change anything, do you realize that going nuclear is so fateful a decision that even the superpowers shuddered at the very idea? [HINT: CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS, CHAMP! ] 

Read the article before you decide to comment so you can actually learn something about how nukes are employed on the battlefield. 

The entire strategy revolves around conventional warfare and there are about 25 comments on nukes and mujhahids, what utter nonsense!!

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## Patriot

Spitfighter said:


> * W.T.F ???????????????
> 
> *
> 
> DEFENCE.PK, does that tell any of you anything? This site is meant to be a place of RATIONAL discourse on matters relating to defense and geopolitics. The entire thread is filled with one liners and smart a$$ comments.
> 
> Can't we discuss the strategy outlined in the article without all this meaningless mudslinging? How is anyone supposed to discuss anything if some kids don't like what they're reading and decide to flame the entire thread!!
> 
> 
> 
> I can post some pretty interesting pictures too, what is the point of such comments? Come on man, really.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you even read the article? Beating your chest and shouting doesn't change anything, do you realize that going nuclear is so fateful a decision that even the superpowers shuddered at the very idea? [HINT: CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS, CHAMP! ]
> 
> Read the article before you decide to comment so you can actually learn something about how nukes are employed on the battlefield.


Oh give me a big ******* break and **** off from here.We all know this thread is for mirch masala (the first post itself is actually written so that indians can get orgasms ) so if you're serious then get to some other thread..or you can smoke the first post as it is apparent that it gives opium effects (As it is already affecting vsdoc mind which i very much doubt he have)

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## Spitfighter

Patriot said:


> Oh give me a big ******* break and **** off from here.We all know this thread is for mirch masala (the first post itself is actually written so that indians can get orgasms ) so if you're serious then get to some other thread..or you can smoke the first post as it is apparent that it gives opium effects (As it is already affecting vsdoc mind which i very much doubt he have)



How about you give the rest of us a break and take your $hit elsewhere?

Read the goddamn article and see if you can counter it with logic, not your childish BS!! 

Mirch masala? did you even bother reading the entire thing or is it too long for you to comprehend? 

Why the hell wouldn't I be serious about discussing the article? You want me to post stupid pictures and beat my chest like you? Why don't you piss off if you aren't interested in discussing anything?


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## oct605032048

will the 'cnmd' plays a role in the nuc-war?


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## FAISAL_UL_HAQ

great article


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## Sayyaf

Patriot said:


> Yeah Jackass.I don't really have to discuss the above article as it does not take Pakistan Army into account.The above article is more suited for games only not for real war.Pakistan will give a massive blow to you bastards.You think invading Pakistan is easy job?We will give you tough that you won't forget.70's are long gone and it's 2010 now..We can rape your country anytime.All your economy and other bullshit will be shattered in one minute you slumdog.
> GAY HIND!



Chill out everyone! just chill! cool it down, breath in and out! Although i do agree, you indians need to stop making silly predictions of invading Pakistan (god forbid)! You start the arguments and we only reply back, if you don't like our replies than don't post such silly nonsense!


----------



## Spitfighter

Patriot said:


> Yeah Jackass.I don't really have to discuss the above article as it does not take Pakistan Army into account.



It does you raging idiot! That's why I told you to read the article. 



> The above article is more suited for games only not for real war.Pakistan will give a massive blow to you bastards.



Haan yaar, we're all very scared. Like I said, if you aren't interested in rational discourse, piss off.



> You think invading Pakistan is easy job?



Did I say it'll be easy? 



> We will give you tough that you won't forget.



How? That's been my question all along. You keep saying you will, but how will you do it? 



> 70's are long gone



Ahh yes, the 70's 



> and it's 2010 now..We can rape your country anytime.



Oye hoye, mein dar gaya!



> All your economy and other bullshit will be shattered in one minute you slumdog.
> GAY HIND!



, jealous of the economy I see. Read the article champ, there's nothing in there about nuclear war. We'll never give Pakistan a reason. 

If only you spent your time reading instead of beating your chest....


----------



## gogbot

Patriot said:


> .
> GAY HIND!



Happy India that's good Isn't it 

honestly you people get worked up over nothing

chillax

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## Spitfighter

Sayyaf said:


> Chill out everyone! just chill! cool it down, breath in and out! Although i do agree, you indians need to stop making silly predictions of invading Pakistan (god forbid)! You start the arguments and we only reply back, if you don't like our replies than don't post such silly nonsense!



Dude, its a realistic assessment of India's strategy in case of a war with Pakistan. We know our countries have the potential to go to war, if there's one thing a defense forum is meant for its discussing this very possibility and now when we've come down to it, we have idiots like 'patriot' who try to derail the thread.


----------



## Sayyaf

Spitfighter said:


> It does you raging idiot! That's why I told you to read the article.
> 
> 
> 
> *Haan yaar, we're all very scared*. Like I said, if you aren't interested in rational discourse, piss off.
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say it'll be easy?
> 
> 
> 
> How? That's been my question all along. You keep saying you will, but how will you do it?
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh yes, the 70's
> 
> 
> 
> Oye hoye, mein dar gaya!
> 
> 
> 
> , *jealous of the economy I see*. Read the article champ, there's nothing in there about nuclear war. We'll never give Pakistan a reason.



of course you scared! your su-30's ran back across the border after they were spotted by our f-16's! 

what exactly is the point of that economy of yours? you have slums in your cities (even Capital Delhi)! 2.8 million+ under age prostitutes, and more than 400 million+ plus living under global poverty line! People don't have enough toilets! I don't see anything to be proud of?


----------



## Sayyaf

Spitfighter said:


> Dude, its a realistic assessment of India's strategy in case of a war with Pakistan. We know our countries have the potential to go to war, if there's one thing a defense forum is meant for its discussing this very possibility and now when we've come down to it, we have idiots like 'patriot' who try to derail the thread.



hmmm, i kinda agree! But i will assure you that MashaAllah Pakistan has the full capability to defend itself, so i don't think you guys can invade Pakistan!


----------



## Sayyaf

Spitfighter said:


> Well its better than NOT HAVING AN ECONOMY TO SPEAK OF isn't it?
> 
> Anyways, I'm done replying to dumbfucks, I'll jump into the discussion if any sane member decides to pick it up.



on one side you have a good economy, and on the other side you have all this poverty and illegal activity in your country!

its just like not having a economy at all isn't it?


----------



## Spitfighter

Sayyaf said:


> on one side you have a good economy, and on the other side you have all this poverty and illegal activity in your country!
> 
> its just like not having a economy at all isn't it?



Yaara, we can discuss India's economy all you like, but not on this thread. India isn't a developed country like Pakistan happy?? 

Lets try to stick to the topic.


----------



## Sayyaf

Spitfighter said:


> Well its better than NOT HAVING AN ECONOMY TO SPEAK OF isn't it?
> 
> Anyways, I'm done replying to dumbfucks, I'll jump into the discussion if any sane member decides to pick it up.




and don't forget to take your shining india!


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## DaRk WaVe

*Cease Fire Please......*

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## Sayyaf

Spitfighter said:


> Yaara, we can discuss India's economy all you like, but not on this thread. India isn't a *developed* country like Pakistan happy??
> 
> Lets try to stick to the topic.




My point isn't that Pakistan is a developed country! And neither am i wet dreaming about invading india!

i guess your right we should stick to the topic! In my opinion india can't invade Pakistan because Pakistan has enough capability to defend itself! This article is old and therefore is irrelevant in 2010!

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## Red Dwarf

Guys why he keeps on using the word RAPE.


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## Mercenary

Guys just take a chill pill.

Have an intellectual debate and not blind nationalism.

I will start:

Basically, Pakistan has 10 Corps along with Strategic Corps for Nuclear Weapons.

Its Main Strike Corp also known as Army Reserve North is composed of I Corp and II Corp. In an event of War Indian plan is to tie them them down in a battle of attrition since a war of maneuver in Punjab seems very unlikely.

In Kashmir, Pakistan has X Corp, which will be reinforced by XI and XII Corps from the West along with Northern Area Corps. They will be entrenched in a defensive formation along the LOC.

Pakistan's 2nd Main Strike Corps is known as Army Reserve South and is composed of IV, XXX and XXXI Corps. The V Corp will function as a strategic reserve. It is here around Southern Punjab/Northern Sindh where India can wage a war of maneuver that it will attack with their two main strike corps and will simply overwhelm the Pakistani Corps.

This is Pakistan's Army biggest weakness.

And the article is exactly right, in 3-4 weeks, the Pakistani Army will crumble under the immense weight of an Indian Offensive.

What Pakistan needs to do is this, IMO:

1 - Create a General Reserve Army of 2 Corps (2 Mechanized and 4 Infantry Divisions and 8 Independent Brigades). Around 120,000 men, 750-1,000 Tanks and supporting artillery, mortar, anti-aircraft and anti-tank brigades. This Army would only be activated in a time of war with India. Its aim would be to plug the hole should front-line troops of Army Reserve South crumble under the Indian onslaught.

2 - Add another Corp to the Sindh Command and move the Sindh Command from a Reserve Army to frontline troops. In a time of war, the Sindh Command composed of V Corp and another Corp will give India pause should it chose to launch an offensive in Southern Punjab.

In total, Pakistan needs to increase the size of its Army from 550,000 to about 600,000 active duty men along with increasing the Reserve Force from 528,000 to 650,000 men along with 1,000 - 1,500 Tanks, and numerous anti-tank, artillery and anti-aircraft units.

This should be enough for Pakistan to wage an effective defensive war with India and prevent any territory from falling into Indian Hands.

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## Kompromat

vsdoc said:


> Balochistan holds the key.
> 
> The Indian Navy holds the key.
> 
> There will be a punch through *** in the north.
> 
> Karachi will be blockaded or go down in the South.
> 
> Balochis will rise from the West in a pincer movement ..... or dry rot from within.
> 
> The Afghan northern alliance will step up its efforts in the north-west.
> 
> Pakistan before it realises it could well become an encircled landlocked country.
> *
> Not knowing which way to turn.*
> 
> Cheers, Doc




To me you sound more like Aj tak TV

Remember we do not " Drink " or take Drugs , And this is the way we will Turn.

Just imagine this cloud x 100.


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## FreekiN

moved up to the front


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## Kompromat

*I can't Understand why guys are fighting a decade old Statics:

Here is the latest one from 2009:*

Country	Warheads active/total*	Year of first test	CTBT status
Five nuclear weapons states from the NPT
United States	2,623 / 9,400[3]	1945 ("Trinity")	Signatory
Russia (former Soviet Union)	4,718 / 13,000[3]	1949 ("RDS-1")	Ratifier
United Kingdom	<160 / 185[3]	1952 ("Hurricane")	Ratifier
France	~300 / 300[3]	1960 ("Gerboise Bleue")	Ratifier
China	~180 / 240[3]	1964 ("596")	Signatory
Non-NPT nuclear powers
*India	n.a. / 60-80[3]	1974 ("Smiling Buddha")	Non-signatory*
*Pakistan	n.a. / 70-90[3]	1998 ("Chagai-I")	Non-signatory*
North Korea	n.a. / <10[3]	2006 (2006 test)	Non-signatory
Undeclared nuclear powers
Israel	n.a. / 80[3]	unknown or 1979 (See Vela Incident)	Signatory
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now put your brains to work!!


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## devd

Black blood said:


> *I can't Understand why guys are fighting a decade old Statics:
> 
> Here is the latest one from 2009:*
> 
> Country	Warheads active/total*	Year of first test	CTBT status
> Five nuclear weapons states from the NPT
> United States	2,623 / 9,400[3]	1945 ("Trinity")	Signatory
> Russia (former Soviet Union)	4,718 / 13,000[3]	1949 ("RDS-1")	Ratifier
> United Kingdom	<160 / 185[3]	1952 ("Hurricane")	Ratifier
> France	~300 / 300[3]	1960 ("Gerboise Bleue")	Ratifier
> China	~180 / 240[3]	1964 ("596")	Signatory
> Non-NPT nuclear powers
> *India	n.a. / 60-80[3]	1974 ("Smiling Buddha")	Non-signatory*
> *Pakistan	n.a. / 70-90[3]	1998 ("Chagai-I")	Non-signatory*
> North Korea	n.a. / <10[3]	2006 (2006 test)	Non-signatory
> Undeclared nuclear powers
> Israel	n.a. / 80[3]	unknown or 1979 (See Vela Incident)	Signatory
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Now put your brains to work!!



Dude this report was deliberately issued by US to please Pakistan and try to remove the Indian fear from Pakistani mind at a very crucial and urgent time, Another plight game of which Pakistan become tangled. I hope some day US stop playing with Pakistan.


----------



## Condor

Mercenary said:


> Guys just take a chill pill.
> 
> Have an intellectual debate and not blind nationalism.
> 
> I will start:
> 
> Basically, Pakistan has 10 Corps along with Strategic Corps for Nuclear Weapons.
> 
> Its Main Strike Corp also known as Army Reserve North is composed of I Corp and II Corp. In an event of War Indian plan is to tie them them down in a battle of attrition since a war of maneuver in Punjab seems very unlikely.
> 
> In Kashmir, Pakistan has X Corp, which will be reinforced by XI and XII Corps from the West along with Northern Area Corps. They will be entrenched in a defensive formation along the LOC.
> 
> Pakistan's 2nd Main Strike Corps is known as Army Reserve South and is composed of IV, XXX and XXXI Corps. The V Corp will function as a strategic reserve. It is here around Southern Punjab/Northern Sindh where India can wage a war of maneuver that it will attack with their two main strike corps and will simply overwhelm the Pakistani Corps.
> 
> This is Pakistan's Army biggest weakness.
> 
> And the article is exactly right, in 3-4 weeks, the Pakistani Army will crumble under the immense weight of an Indian Offensive.
> 
> What Pakistan needs to do is this, IMO:
> 
> 1 - Create a General Reserve Army of 2 Corps (2 Mechanized and 4 Infantry Divisions and 8 Independent Brigades). Around 120,000 men, 750-1,000 Tanks and supporting artillery, mortar, anti-aircraft and anti-tank brigades. This Army would only be activated in a time of war with India. Its aim would be to plug the hole should front-line troops of Army Reserve South crumble under the Indian onslaught.
> 
> 2 - Add another Corp to the Sindh Command and move the Sindh Command from a Reserve Army to frontline troops. In a time of war, the Sindh Command composed of V Corp and another Corp will give India pause should it chose to launch an offensive in Southern Punjab.
> 
> In total, Pakistan needs to increase the size of its Army from 550,000 to about 600,000 active duty men along with increasing the Reserve Force from 528,000 to 650,000 men along with 1,000 - 1,500 Tanks, and numerous anti-tank, artillery and anti-aircraft units.
> 
> This should be enough for Pakistan to wage an effective defensive war with India and prevent any territory from falling into Indian Hands.


Cool rational thinking but not there yet - I wouldn't say brilliant. If this is how your Army command also thinks, you are not going to get far. May even get a good drubbing.
Leaning on your nuclear umbrella every so often is also not a healthy sign.
You should be thinking of cauldron battles on an entirely different spectrum. I do not know if I should even spill it all out here.


----------



## FreekiN

devd said:


> Dude this report was deliberately issued by US to please Pakistan and try to remove the Indian fear from Pakistani mind at a very crucial and urgent time, Another plight game of which Pakistan become tangled. I hope some day US stop playing with Pakistan.



Sounds like an inconvenient reaction to an inconvenient truth. 

If you did some research you would have found this publication was not made for Pakistan and was not made by a single source. The Federation of American Scientists and the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists have most notably confirmed the accuracy of the estimates of these representations. These two organizations are not government controlled and are actually private.


----------



## Condor

To Cheers Doc: Where u gone now Doc, after conquering Pakistan? 

You have to stabilize the country after your conquest.

Busy I s'ppose, giving it to them patients - suppositories I mean.


----------



## Spitfighter

Condor said:


> Cool rational thinking but not there yet - I wouldn't say brilliant. If this is how your Army command also thinks, you are not going to get far. May even get a good drubbing.
> Leaning on your nuclear umbrella every so often is also not a healthy sign.
> You should be thinking of cauldron battles on an entirely different spectrum. *I do not know if I should even spill it all out here.*



Please do, I'd like to get your opinion on the feasibility of India's strategic objectives (wrt a war with Pakistan of course). 

PS: go easy on the military jargon.


----------



## Kompromat

devd said:


> Dude


First of all i am not your dude .


> this report was deliberately issued by US to please Pakistan


Oh really , so you run an Intelligence Firm do you?


> and try to remove the Indian fear from Pakistani mind at a very crucial and urgent time


Indian fear ?? what is that? 
Oh i remember you are talking about this one...








> Another plight game of which Pakistan become tangled. I hope some day* US stop playing with Pakistan.*



You worry about India , we don't need your expertise .

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## Condor

Hi Spitfire,
How u doin?
Whats it like in States down there?
We are literally freezing up here in Europa.

"War is too serious a business to be left alone to the Generals" - they say and so do I.


----------



## Condor

Spitfighter said:


> Please do, I'd like to get your opinion on the feasibility of India's strategic objectives (wrt a war with Pakistan of course).
> 
> PS: go easy on the military jargon.


Spitfire: To answer your Question peripherally, lest it exacerbate your opponents already disadvantaged position, let me tell you that I can make an accurate guess of what exactly is going on in the minds of your upper echelon politico-military. And of course they are right to think thus.

The paper presented here on this debate is outdated - much has changed since then. Naturally the thinking also will evolve concurrent to the changes.

With regard to a war with Pakistan only time can tell - crunch time, that is. It would be foolish of anybody to assume that Pakistan wud not have remained current itself on the ever changing scenario.

Strategic objectives by themselves should not be cardinal but flexible and should be malleable tools in the hands of decision makers.

Cheerio


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## Condor

xxxxxxDeletedxxxxxxxx


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## Kompromat

Condor said:


> Spitfire: To answer your Question peripherally, lest it exacerbate your opponents already disadvantaged position, let me tell you that I can make an accurate guess of what exactly is going on in the minds of your upper echelon politico-military. And of course they are right to think thus.
> 
> The paper presented here on this debate is outdated - much has changed since then. Naturally the thinking also will evolve concurrent to the changes.
> 
> With regard to a war with Pakistan only time can tell - crunch time, that is. It would be foolish of anybody to assume that Pakistan wud not have remained current itself on the ever changing scenario.
> 
> Strategic objectives by themselves should not be cardinal but flexible and should be malleable tools in the hands of decision makers.
> 
> Cheerio



Read it:


http://www.adl.gatech.edu/research/brmsrr/2009/SRRP04010901.pdf


----------



## vsdoc

Mercenary said:


> Guys just take a chill pill.
> 
> Have an intellectual debate and not blind nationalism.
> 
> I will start:
> 
> Basically, Pakistan has 10 Corps along with Strategic Corps for Nuclear Weapons.
> 
> Its Main Strike Corp also known as Army Reserve North is composed of I Corp and II Corp. In an event of War Indian plan is to tie them them down in a battle of attrition since a war of maneuver in Punjab seems very unlikely.
> 
> In Kashmir, Pakistan has X Corp, which will be reinforced by XI and XII Corps from the West along with Northern Area Corps. They will be entrenched in a defensive formation along the LOC.
> 
> Pakistan's 2nd Main Strike Corps is known as Army Reserve South and is composed of IV, XXX and XXXI Corps. The V Corp will function as a strategic reserve. It is here around Southern Punjab/Northern Sindh where India can wage a war of maneuver that it will attack with their two main strike corps and will simply overwhelm the Pakistani Corps.
> 
> This is Pakistan's Army biggest weakness.
> 
> And the article is exactly right, in 3-4 weeks, the Pakistani Army will crumble under the immense weight of an Indian Offensive.
> 
> What Pakistan needs to do is this, IMO:
> 
> 1 - Create a General Reserve Army of 2 Corps (2 Mechanized and 4 Infantry Divisions and 8 Independent Brigades). Around 120,000 men, 750-1,000 Tanks and supporting artillery, mortar, anti-aircraft and anti-tank brigades. This Army would only be activated in a time of war with India. Its aim would be to plug the hole should front-line troops of Army Reserve South crumble under the Indian onslaught.
> 
> 2 - Add another Corp to the Sindh Command and move the Sindh Command from a Reserve Army to frontline troops. In a time of war, the Sindh Command composed of V Corp and another Corp will give India pause should it chose to launch an offensive in Southern Punjab.
> 
> In total, Pakistan needs to increase the size of its Army from 550,000 to about 600,000 active duty men along with increasing the Reserve Force from 528,000 to 650,000 men along with 1,000 - 1,500 Tanks, and numerous anti-tank, artillery and anti-aircraft units.
> 
> This should be enough for Pakistan to wage an effective defensive war with India and prevent any territory from falling into Indian Hands.



Building an army takes time. It takes money. It takes vision and strategic acumen.

The last Pakistan has been found wanting on a number of coming togethers of the 2 armies in the past.

The second we all know Pakistan does not have ..... and is not likely to get in a hurry ..... short of a really rich uncle dying and leaving it billions in his will.

The first, as an Indian, living in India, and keeping ones eyes open and ear to the ground, I sadly feel is a luxury Pakistan simply does not have. 

And looking at the current situation, in India, in Pakistan, and the world, all 3 are what India has plenty of vis-a-vis Pakistan.

Whatever Pakistan puts in place, India already had some years ago, and theres a lot more where that came from. 

That said, there is a reason why India's Navy carries out all its top research and development in its top secret eastern ports.

I have been inside one such base and while I cannot obviously say anything, I can tell you that beyond the army and airforce, india is preparing a truly formidable Naval battering ram for use on its western coast.

If its an offensive, the ground forces all along the border will get into a scrimmage with the Pakistan army ..... and slowly and inexorably push forward.

The fly boys will make sure that the balance of power remains firmly tilted in the right direction ..... with penetration, saturation, and ground troop and logistical support ..... from both the East *AND* the West.

The Navy wil open a new front all along the the entire Pakistan coast ..... with saturation bombing ...... and obvious pinpoint strikes of key facilities.

This process of "tenderization" would last 2-3 weeks.

Enter week 4.

Then come the troop landings ..... syncing up with our ground force push from the east. 

Simply put, Pakistan can just about delay the inevitable, if it comes, on the one front it has studiously manned for 62 years.

One more opens up, and its out of its depth ..... literally and figuratively. 

The Navy is where India will land the sucker punch ..... come time.

Mark my words ..... said in peace. 

Cheers, Doc

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## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^^

Seems you have missed your dose of tranquilizers again.

Hell, the Cows may as well fly.

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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Building an army takes time. It takes money. It takes vision and strategic acumen.
> 
> The last Pakistan has been found wanting on a number of coming togethers of the 2 armies in the past.
> 
> The second we all know Pakistan does not have ..... and is not likely to get in a hurry ..... short of a really rich uncle dying and leaving it billions in his will.
> 
> The first, as an Indian, living in India, and keeping ones eyes open and ear to the ground, I sadly feel is a luxury Pakistan simply does not have.
> 
> And looking at the current situation, in India, in Pakistan, and the world, all 3 are what India has plenty of vis-a-vis Pakistan.
> 
> Whatever Pakistan puts in place, India already had some years ago, and theres a lot more where that came from.
> 
> That said, there is a reason why India's Navy carries out all its top research and development in its top secret eastern ports.
> 
> I have been inside one such base and while I cannot obviously say anything, I can tell you that beyond the army and airforce, india is preparing a truly formidable Naval battering ram for use on its western coast.
> 
> The Navy is where India will pull some rabbits out of its hat ..... come time.
> 
> Mark my words ..... said in peace.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Being a Pakistani I can tell you that a delusional analysis of yours holds ground only in your mind and country. What Pakistan can put forth India had already, good for your and like Ghalib said
Dil ko behlanay ka khayal acha hai ghalib.
Some times you guys say that we are sleeping, believing in the bs, our media keeps us misinformed. Yours is doing a better job with you guys. 
How can you be so sure that Pakistan can't pull some of their rabbits out of the hat. Do you know what the Pakistan Army, AF and the navy had. Did they like call you or some. Talk with an open mind, and stop making assumptions. 
And as of your bs about india running over Pakistan, well I can say only one thing to you nuts (which translated in the military terms means "go to hell").

And the above message is in peace.


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## Aslan

.....





To all of the delusional clowns that think that they can run over Pakistan and we will let you.

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## vsdoc

Fair enough .... you have a point. You guys would obviously have accounted for contingencies dreamed up by a delusional civilian like me strongly in need of tranquilizers/medical pot ..... and probaly discarded it in the waste bin fortright.

I was trying to respond to Mercenary's post.

Why dont you tell us where I have erred and lets take it from there?

All in peace of course ......

Cheers, Doc


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## Windjammer

"The first, as an Indian, living in India, and keeping ones eyes open and ear to the ground, I sadly feel is a luxury Pakistan simply does not have." 
---------------------------------------------------
Seems they were well and truly shut and blocked during Mumbai scenario.
-----------------------------------------------------
"Whatever Pakistan puts in place, India already had some years ago, and theres a lot more where that came from."
-------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you on that one, as Pakistan was able to induct JF-17 in less than a decade, while the LCA has been around for 20 years.


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## Kompromat

vsdoc said:


> Building an army takes time. It takes money. It takes vision and strategic acumen.
> 
> The last Pakistan has been found wanting on a number of coming togethers of the 2 armies in the past.
> 
> The second we all know Pakistan does not have ..... and is not likely to get in a hurry ..... short of a really rich uncle dying and leaving it billions in his will.
> 
> The first, as an Indian, living in India, and keeping ones eyes open and ear to the ground, I sadly feel is a luxury Pakistan simply does not have.
> 
> And looking at the current situation, in India, in Pakistan, and the world, all 3 are what India has plenty of vis-a-vis Pakistan.
> 
> Whatever Pakistan puts in place, India already had some years ago, and theres a lot more where that came from.
> 
> That said, there is a reason why India's Navy carries out all its top research and development in its top secret eastern ports.
> 
> I have been inside one such base and while I cannot obviously say anything, I can tell you that beyond the army and airforce, india is preparing a truly formidable Naval battering ram for use on its western coast.
> 
> If its an offensive, the ground forces all along the border will get into a scrimmage with the Pakistan army ..... and slowly and inexorably push forward.
> 
> The fly boys will make sure that the balance of power remains firmly tilted in the right direction ..... with penetration, saturation, and ground troop and logistical support ..... from both the East *AND* the West.
> 
> The Navy wil open a new front all along the the entire Pakistan coast ..... with saturation bombing ...... and obvious pinpoint strikes of key facilities.
> 
> This process of "tenderization" would last 2-3 weeks.
> 
> Enter week 4.
> 
> Then come the troop landings ..... syncing up with our ground force push from the east.
> 
> Simply put, Pakistan can just about delay the inevitable, if it comes, on the one front it has studiously manned for 62 years.
> 
> One more opens up, and its out of its depth ..... literally and figuratively.
> 
> The Navy is where India will land the sucker punch ..... come time.
> 
> Mark my words ..... said in peace.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




*Well your post does depict some of the " wetty wet dreams of your chief " doesn't it?

What is the use of writing that many lines on a simple point that India would open as many fronts as they can to break Pakistan's military strengths.

All i can understand is Pakistan army can beat the crap out of of Indian army on Eastern Frontiers , Air force will guard the skies PAF can defend its skies it has proved already and it can deliver effective punch to IAF once again.

Once we must consider if Uboats 214 come our way it would be a " Pain " in IN's bumm .

Pakistan having F-22's , Type 54 Jiangkai-I Class Missile Frigate , Augosta 90b and missile boats loaded with C-802 anti-ship missiles ,PN McInerney (FFG-8) , and most of the frigates armed with Naval version of Babur Cruise missile will slay down any Indian Naval Attack.

This is what we call conventional , but if India does succeed to Bring Pakistan to its Military limits then I am afraid no one would be able to save India from a nuclear Doomsday*


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## vsdoc

^^^^ Let's please not deviate from the topic and quibble.

It gets really tiresome after some time buddy.

Mumbai, J17, yada yada.

India is coming at you ..... hard ..... from all around.

What are you going to do?

That's what this topic is about.

Cheers, Doc


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> ^^^^ Let's please not deviate from the topic and quibble.
> 
> It gets really tiresome after some time buddy.
> 
> Mumbai, J17, yada yada.
> 
> India is coming at you ..... hard ..... from all around.
> 
> What are you going to do?
> 
> That's what this topic is about.
> 
> Cheers, Doc





We are going to sit smoke our hukkas and watch the indian equipment fall apart before entering the Pakistani border. Samossan and Pakoras will be on offer with unlimited supply of chai pati. You are most welcome to come join the party.


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## vsdoc

Black blood said:


> All i can understand is Pakistan army can beat the crap out of of Indian army on Eastern Frontiers , Air force will guard the skies PAF can defend its skies it has proved already and it can deliver effective punch to IAF once again.



Yeah ok ..... you've proved it the last 4 times you butted heads with us.



> Once we must consider if Uboats 214 come our way it would be a " Pain " in IN's bumm .



Once Zardari grows boobs ..... he will be the second-coming of Benazir Bhutto, Gog bless her soul. 



> Pakistan having F-22's , Type 54 Jiangkai-I Class Missile Frigate , Augosta 90b and missile boats loaded with C-802 anti-ship missiles ,PN McInerney (FFG-8) , and most of the frigates armed with Naval version of Babur Cruise missile will slay down any Indian Naval Attack.



I have some well paced sources in the Navy. The bulk of your "Navy" will last less than *3 days* were we to come against you full on.



> This is what we call conventional , but if India does succeed to Bring Pakistan to its Military limits then I am afraid no one would be able to save India from a nuclear attack.



Yes ..... cozy thumb sucking security blanket time for lil baby.

P.S. Once you come out .... or grow beyond the blanket ..... whichever is earlier ..... the big bad wolf will still be there.

Cheers, Doc

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## Windjammer

vsdoc said:


> ^^^^ Let's please not deviate from the topic and quibble.
> 
> It gets really tiresome after some time buddy.
> 
> Mumbai, J17, yada yada.
> 
> India is coming at you ..... hard ..... from all around.
> 
> What are you going to do?
> 
> That's what this topic is about.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


India indeed is a big country with a very large population, although it fancies it'self as a mini power and it could indeed play the role of a big brother but the story ends when it's Pakistan obsession begins.
India can perhaps dictate minutes like Bhuttan but even countries like Bangladesh stand up to it. As China increases it's influence, India has lost it's leverage on Nepal. Sri Lanka has even sidelined India and has approached Pakistan for defense requirements. Above all do you actually take pride that a big country like India has to turn to a minute Zionist state like Israel for it's own security. As you put it, kindly inform us as where is India coming from. ??? !!!


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## DaRk WaVe

Windjammer said:


> India indeed is a big country with a very large population, although it fancies it'self as a mini power and it could indeed play the role of a big brother but the story ends when it's Pakistan obsession begins.
> India can perhaps dictate minutes like Bhuttan but even countries like Bangladesh stand up to it. As China increases it's influence, India has lost it's leverage on Nepal. Sri Lanka has even sidelined India and has approached Pakistan for defense requirements. Above all do you actually take pride that a big country like India has to turn to a minute Zionist state like Israel for it's own security. As you put it, kindly inform us as where is India coming from. ??? !!!



Mr Kapoor has contaminated their sleeps with wetty wet dreams

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## vsdoc

^^^ There are enough threads about political and international issues buddy ..... which frankly leave me cold.

I repeat ..... India ..... zionist support, hostile lil neighbours, and all ..... is coming at you.

The reasons could be many ..... but the bottom line is, we are coming.

Which means we have decided to rip your cozy comfort nuclear blanket off.

You are exposed.

What do you do?

Do you continue sucking you thumb and SOS dragon that elephant has run amok ..... now what to do, where are you, are you coming, when are you coming, what are you bringing, etc etc?

Or do you fight back with what you have?

Or do you roll over and turn around?

Either way, I am interested in knowing and comparing notes .....

Cheers, Doc


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Yeah ok ..... you've proved it the last 4 times you butted heads with us.
> 
> 
> 
> Once Zardari grows boobs ..... he will be the second-coming of Benazir Bhutto, Gog bless her soul.
> 
> 
> 
> I have some well paced sources in the Navy. The bulk of your "Navy" will last less than *3 days* were we to come against you full on.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes ..... cozy thumb sucking security blanket time for lil baby.
> 
> P.S. Once you come out .... or grow beyond the blanket ..... whichever is earlier ..... the big bad wolf will still be there.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




A message in just for you doc;

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## Kompromat

vsdoc said:


> Yeah ok ..... you've proved it the last 4 times you butted heads with us.



Difference of doctrine!




> Once Zardari grows boobs ..... he will be the second-coming of Benazir Bhutto, Gog bless her soul.



Uboat deal will be concluded soon , Zardari has been banged by Naval chief. Bad news for you!




> I have some well paced sources in the Navy. The bulk of your "Navy" will last less than *3 days* were we to come against you full on.



Which Indian navy ? oh really then we must be talking through our local library ain't we?



> Yes ..... cozy thumb sucking security blanket time for lil baby.
> 
> P.S. Once you come out .... or grow beyond the blanket ..... whichever is earlier ..... the big bad wolf will still be there.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



 Its your Normal BS and this is where you would make your way out of the discussion . What is the Guarantee that we would Nuke you in first few hours of the war?

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## vsdoc

^^^ Lose the goatee dude ..... or wait for a few years till the growth thickens out.

Cheers, Doc


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## DaRk WaVe

*hey people were those the Indian Forces who came at our eastern borders in 2001 
​*

I think they were after all we were shooo weak at that time how could have we stood the Might of Incredible India, Isn't it people


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## vsdoc

Sighhhhhhh ..... its difficult to have a good debate when good posters go sentimental and start pouting and go katti.

Other good posters stay away.

And you come back the next day and see that taimi has deleted the rest.

Oh well ......

Cheers, Doc


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## DaRk WaVe

vsdoc said:


> Sighhhhhhh ..... its difficult to have a good debate when good posters go sentimental and start pouting and go katti.
> 
> Other good posters stay away.
> 
> And you come back the next day and see that taimi has deleted the rest.
> 
> Oh well ......
> 
> Cheers, Doc



the hallucinated Doc is telling us about 'Good Debate', Clapping people


they hate this forum & its Mod but whenever they fix their arse in front of a computer they always login into

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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> ^^^ Lose the goatee dude ..... or wait for a few years till the growth thickens out.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Gash you didnt recognise your self. Too bad son it happens when the drugs take hold of the brain. Why dont you smoke another joint.


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## Iggy

Guys try to understand what he is saying..what if India is coming to attack Pakistan is the possible manner as the article says?what will be Pakistan's response??their tactics?their movements..man is it too hard to understand ?


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## Naradmuni

emo_girl said:


> whenever they fix their arse in front of a computer they always login into



And that means extra work for you ??

Hmmm..... Obvious reason to be sad.


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## Aslan

seiko said:


> Guys try to understand what he is saying..what if India is coming to attack Pakistan is the possible manner as the article says?what will be Pakistan's response??their tactics?their movements..man is it too hard to understand ?



What he is saying is that India will run over Pakistan and we wont be able to do squat. Cant you read or like they say in Punjabi


Khawajay do gawah daduu.


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## vsdoc

emo_girl said:


> the hallucinated Doc is telling us about 'Good Debate', Clapping people
> 
> 
> they hate this forum & its Mod but whenever they fix their arse in front of a computer they always login into



What are you going on about lady?

I love this forum and I have no issues with the Mods or Think Tank.

Yeah some Staff get on my tattas .... but you cant have everything.

And a personal suggestion ..... I really wish you would not use words like "arse" etc. ..... ladies are too beautiful a creation for such words to be pouring out. Call me old fashioned, but I really wish you would oblige. 

Cheers, Doc


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## Windjammer

vsdoc said:


> ^^^ There are enough threads about political and international issues buddy ..... which frankly leave me cold.
> 
> I repeat ..... India ..... zionist support, hostile lil neighbours, and all ..... is coming at you.
> 
> The reasons could be many ..... but the bottom line is, we are coming.
> 
> Which means we have decided to rip your cozy comfort nuclear blanket off.
> 
> You are exposed.
> 
> What do you do?
> 
> Do you continue sucking you thumb and SOS dragon that elephant has run amok ..... now what to do, where are you, are you coming, when are you coming, what are you bringing, etc etc?
> 
> Or do you fight back with what you have?
> 
> Or do you roll over and turn around?
> 
> Either way, I am interested in knowing and comparing notes .....
> 
> Cheers, Doc


You know during the last stand off, up to 20 Indian aircraft would head in Pakistan's direction at around 10,000 feet so as to be clearly visible on the Pakistani radar, but some Kilometer short of the border, they would simply turn and high tail it, The mighty Indian navy sent it's aircraft carrier, it sailed past Karachi and anchored just outside international waters, PN dispatched a Sub and a Destroyer to check it's intentions, but the Carrier didn't stop around, on another occasions, an Indian Merchant Vessel broke down and drifted into Pakistani waters, the Indian Navy was dispatched to salvage the stricken ship, in the end they had to ask Americans to tow it out of Pakistani lines. Buddy, you always come but then the nerves get the better of yous. And the day you do venture, rest assured it is not going to be any dragon lighting up yours where sun don't shine.
In Pakistani circles it's termed as third and final round, hence you will for once and all find out whether you are coming or going.

In pieces off course.

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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> What are you going on about lady?
> 
> I love this forum and I have no issues with the Mods or Think Tank.
> 
> Yeah some Staff get on my *tattas* .... but you cant have everything.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Yeah what ever man, for some one to step on them one has to have a pair. Grow some rather then being a delusional internet rambo.

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## DaRk WaVe

Narad said:


> And that means extra work for you ??
> 
> Hmmm..... A valid reason to be sad.




hey Hi welcome back from Ban
No no work load for me but this place certainly gets dirty



vsdoc said:


> What are you going on about lady?
> 
> I love this forum and I have no issues with the Mods or Think Tank.
> 
> *Yeah some Staff get on my tattas ...*. but you cant have everything.
> 
> *And a personal suggestion ..... I really wish you would not use words like "arse" etc. ..... ladies are too beautiful a creation for such words to be pouring out.* Call me old fashioned, but I really wish you would oblige.
> 
> Cheers, Doc




thats a paradox....

Clapping please....

BTW you don't sit on ........ Ladies are too beautiful to use that word

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## vsdoc

Windjammer said:


> You know during the last stand off, up to 20 Indian aircraft would head in Pakistan's direction at around 10,000 feet so as to be clearly visible on the Pakistani radar, but some Kilometer short of the border, they would simply turn and high tail it, The mighty Indian navy sent it's aircraft carrier, it sailed past Karachi and anchored just outside international waters, PN dispatched a Sub and a Destroyer to check it's intentions, but the Carrier didn't stop around, on another occasions, an Indian Merchant Vessel broke down and drifted into Pakistani waters, the Indian Navy was dispatched to salvage the stricken ship, in the end they had to ask Americans to tow it out of Pakistani lines. Buddy, you always come but then the nerves get the better of yous. And the day you do venture, rest assured it is not going to be any dragon lighting up yours where sun don't shine.
> In Pakistani circles it's termed as third and final round, hence you will for once and all find out whether you are coming or going.
> 
> In pieces off course.



You mean the *fifth* round don't you?

The beauty of stopping just short my friend is the death by anticipation of not knowing if THIS is the time they're coming through.

Think about it.

And let me know if you got much sleep once you do.

Cheers, Doc


----------



## Naradmuni

vsdoc said:


> ladies are too beautiful a creation for such words to be pouring out. Call me old fashioned,



Bade Miyan Deewane, Aise na bano....


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## vsdoc

emo_girl said:


> hey Hi welcome back from Ban
> No no work load for me but this place certainly gets dirty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thats a paradox....
> 
> Clapping please....



I'm a guy. I have been designed rough and coarse and angular.

Cheers, Doc


----------



## vsdoc

khalidali said:


> Yeah what ever man, for some one to step on them one has to have a pair. Grow some rather then being a delusional internet rambo.



Well, I would have suggested you to do the same.

But the rules are different for Pakistanis and Indians.

So while we grow, you beg and copy.

So either you beg the Americans or the Chinese for a pair.

Or you get an outdated set, and copy-paste a Xerox to your nether regions ...... and proclaim to the world that you were the first to grow them.

Let me know which way you decide to "swing" 

Cheers, Doc

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## Windjammer

vsdoc said:


> You mean the *fifth* round don't you?
> 
> The beauty of stopping just short my friend is the death by anticipation of not knowing if THIS is the time they're coming through.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> And let me know if you got much sleep once you do.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Anticipation is all and mere saber rattling is a sleepy environment, however the fear of the unknown has always haunted the human conscious, and you people above all know what fear belies you. when was the last time you slept well.

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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Well, I would have suggested you to do the same.
> 
> But the rules are different for Pakistanis and Indians.
> 
> So while we grow, you beg and copy.
> 
> So either you beg the Americans or the Chinese for a pair.
> 
> Or you get an outdated set, and copy-paste a Xerox to your nether regions ...... and proclaim to the world that you were the first to grow them.
> 
> Let me know which way you decide to "swing"
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Well for once swinging would be better for you at this age as that down there might not be of any use any ways. As far as me growing a pair, funny aint it; cause you have decided to follow in kapoorays footsteps, and go on a war mongering rampage from behind a computer screen. Too bad I wish that you had made those remarks in front of me and I would have showed you that who has a pair and who don&#8217;t. So son keep doing what you do the best, be an internet warrior and save your Jaw. And another suggestion don&#8217;t die, live longer and long enough to see your great indian armies a$$ kicked back to hell.

And if you were not stupid enough to know this and I am sure that you are stupid enough to not know that what the US is paying for the lost that we had to incur because of their WOT. But forget that, you are too na&#239;ve to understand the complications of international diplomacy. So doc keeping in mind your fragile state and your retarded brain I will not take any offence to your remarks. Keep living the hallucinations at least it keeps you happy in your last days.


And by the way even if we copy we are good at it, at least we don&#8217;t beg others for technology claim to be ours. Do R&D on it for ages and still come out with nothing like a pathetic loser. So it is good that we copy and copy well so we can make it work to give you a heart &@$$ burn.

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## vsdoc

Windjammer said:


> Anticipation is all and mere saber rattling is a sleepy environment, however the fear of the unknown has always haunted the human conscious, and you people above all know what fear belies you. when was the last time you slept well.



Every night actually ..... I'm Indian, in case you missed the flags. 

There is nothing "unknown" about Pakistan buddy ..... unless it is *what* Pakistan we will eventually go up against.

That is what the wait and watch is all about.

Cheers, Doc


----------



## vsdoc

khalidali said:


> Well for once swinging would be better for you at this age as that down there might not be of any use any ways. As far as me growing a pair, funny aint it; cause you have decided to follow in kapoorays footsteps, and go on a war mongering rampage from behind a computer screen. Too bad I wish that you had made those remarks in front of me and I would have showed you that who has a pair and who dont. So son keep doing what you do the best, be an internet warrior and save your Jaw. And another suggestion dont die, live longer and long enough to see your great indian armies a$$ kicked back to hell.
> 
> And if you were not stupid enough to know this and I am sure that you are stupid enough to not know that what the US is paying for the lost that we had to incur because of their WOT. But forget that, you are too naïve to understand the complications of international diplomacy. So doc keeping in mind your fragile state and your retarded brain I will not take any offence to your remarks. Keep living the hallucinations at least it keeps you happy in your last days.
> 
> 
> And by the way even if we copy we are good at it, at least we dont beg others for technology claim to be ours. Do R&D on it for ages and still come out with nothing like a pathetic loser. So it is good that we copy and copy well so we can make it work to give you a heart &@$$ burn.



So where do we meet to give you a crack at my jaw and my shrivelled gote? Wagah ok for you? Will be that part of the country a few days from now. Let me know if you can make it dada. 

Since you call me son, yet talk about my advanced years, must make you a heck of an old man. About the time the testes shrink and often retract back into the inguinal canal.

There is a simple test ..... hold your testicular sac in one hand and palpate for a oval shaped lump. 

If you can't feel it ..... try coughing. It should descend.

Apply warm compress and call me in the morning dadu! 

Cheers, Doc 

P.S. Have you seen that WWF battery ad?


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## Naradmuni

khalidali said:


> And by the way even *if we copy we are good at it*, at least we dont beg others for technology claim to be ours. Do R&D on it for ages and still come out with nothing like a pathetic loser. So it is good that we copy and copy well so we can make it work to give you a heart &@$$ burn.



I would love to see you copy Satellites and SLVs. China arming pakistan with nukes out of strategic considerations may make sense but giving cutting edge space tech to pakistan does not make any sense to me or to the chinese for that matter.

There has never been and there is simply no parallels between India and Pakistan. This whole Rant and rhetoric and additional medical BS all over here is a big


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## Naradmuni

emo_girl said:


> Mr Kapoor has contaminated their sleeps with wetty wet dreams



What a fuss! 

Gen Kapoor is no Hamid Zaid and his statements make practical/strategical sense and his comments were in context specific to the matter. Remember, Gen Kapoor does not earn his bread and butter out of conspiracy theories, like other south asian big mouths. 

Even if Gen Kapoors statements is assumed to threat pakistans security then the bed wetting phenomenon should be other way round, dont you think?


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## devd

Narad said:


> What a fuss!
> 
> Gen Kapoor is no Hamid Zaid and his statements make practical/strategical sense and his comments were in context specific to the matter. Remember, Gen Kapoor does not earn his bread and butter out of conspiracy theories, like other south asian big mouths.
> 
> Even if Gen Kapoors statements is assumed to threat pakistans security then the bed wetting phenomenon should be other way round, dont you think?


I guess indian should invite Zaid hamid to laughter challenge.


----------



## Windjammer

vsdoc said:


> Every night actually ..... I'm Indian, in case you missed the flags.
> 
> There is nothing "unknown" about Pakistan buddy ..... unless it is *what* Pakistan we will eventually go up against.
> 
> That is what the wait and watch is all about.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Yes indeed you are an Indian, who will try and sleep anywhere.
My understanding was the call centers monitor clients not the Country,
Patience is a virtue but in your case wait and watch is going to be merely self harming.


----------



## KillBill

seiko said:


> I tried to download it from net..turns out the movie i download was ****  I was like the fourth idiot



Ha ha ha 

But why you have to download when you can go to a theatre near you ?


----------



## Iggy

KillBill said:


> Ha ha ha
> 
> But why you have to download when you can go to a theatre near you ?



more than 2 times i went to see..house full bro .i tried online booking too..full for 2 weeks ..then had to do the illegal part


----------



## Iggy

seiko said:


> I tried to download it from net..turns out the movie i download was ****  I was like the fourth idiot





emo_girl said:


> Happens, once i downloaded 'batman' turned out to be something really bad






r0ck said:


> Yeah right. I believe you people.
> 
> @Off Topic (but had to reply).





Three Idiots  no offence


----------



## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> So where do we meet to give you a crack at my jaw and my shrivelled gote? Wagah ok for you? Will be that part of the country a few days from now. Let me know if you can make it dada.
> 
> Since you call me son, yet talk about my advanced years, must make you a heck of an old man. About the time the testes shrink and often retract back into the inguinal canal.
> 
> There is a simple test ..... hold your testicular sac in one hand and palpate for a oval shaped lump.
> 
> If you can't feel it ..... try coughing. It should descend.
> 
> Apply warm compress and call me in the morning dadu!
> 
> Cheers, Doc
> 
> P.S. Have you seen that WWF battery ad?




Trying to be funny eh.................too bad i will give you a lol. Dont cry now, and me calling you son had nothing to do with my age duffas! but how would you understand. And please keep the medical procedure that the doctor gave you to yourself, why are u humiliating yourself by telling others what you are prescribed to do every day. And yes do come to Wagah but make sure that you are wearing your old mans dippers, unless you want to wet your pants like the Indian soldiers when they see the Pakistan Rangers.


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## Windjammer

vsdoc said:


> What are you going on about lady?
> 
> I love this forum and I have no issues with the Mods or Think Tank.
> 
> Yeah some Staff get on my tattas .... but you cant have everything.
> 
> And a personal suggestion ..... I really wish you would not use words like "arse" etc. ..... ladies are too beautiful a creation for such words to be pouring out. Call me old fashioned, but I really wish you would oblige.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Your manners are appalling, it's obvious you represent a society with a derelict mindset and bankrupt values. Shame on you.


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## Naradmuni

Windjammer said:


> Your manners are appalling, it's obvious *you represent a society with a derelict mindset and bankrupt values.* Shame on you.



You are taking it far too long here. 

Does a pakistani suicide bomber represent the entire Islamic culture, the pakistani mindset and the Muslim value system? If yes then you are rightly blaming the whole of Indian society. If no, then show your concern against the individual and not the society in general.

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## Aslan

Narad said:


> Easy Dude. Stop panicking !!
> 
> Its not my business to tell people what to post and what not to post.
> 
> Those would be taken care of by the Mods and so far even they havent taken action on those posts and maybe according to you even they belong to league of "extraordinary retards".
> 
> Reported for personal attack.



How many of Docs posts did you report, on one hand where you are right to say that one can post what they feel like; and also that the individual dont represent the society. What will you say about the people who have been aplauding his garbage.

And by the way what I put there was a question and not a statement. So for me if you agree with the clown, then you make that call. If you dont dont concern your self with it.


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## Windjammer

Narad said:


> You are taking it far too long here.
> 
> Does a pakistani suicide bomber represent the entire Islamic culture, the pakistani mindset and the Muslim value system? If yes then you are rightly blaming the whole of Indian society. If no, then show your concern against the individual and not the society in general.



You will find there is a difference between a Nation and Society, and talking of suicide bombers, the Mumbai fire fight was still in progress when the Indian media, public and politicians alike started to blame not individuals or groups but Pakistan as whole. Suffice to say, it works both ways.


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## KillBill

I went through all the 11pages and hoped that some serious millitary stratergy discussion will be done in this thread and the way people move for attack and people who can defend or pull a surprise or two, but what i found

1. Useless chest thumping
2. Free Medical advice
3. People called each other names
4. Blind nationalism 
5. Discussion of a bollywood movie
6. One mention of Zaid Hamid. 
7. A lot of useless rants deleted by mods 

The only thing that is missing is muslim ummah stuff, except that everything is covered.

WoW, could any discussion be more mature?


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## Condor

Black blood said:


> Read it:
> 
> 
> http://www.adl.gatech.edu/research/brmsrr/2009/SRRP04010901.pdf


Black Blood: I overlooked the link you suggested reading and just now had the chance to go thru it. 

See, it is not important what the yield was, in those tests conducted more than a decade back. You can be sure India has moved on from those failures and kept pace with latest advances.
It is not even necessary to conduct open tests in the measuring or testing of nuclear devices.
The threat from their nukes is real as it is from yours - though given your cuddly relations with U S, I very much have have my reservations.


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## Kompromat

@vsdoc this is what exactly your anssestorzzz use to say .. Im surprised they passed it on to you guys too..

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## Condor

vsdoc said:


> What are you going on about lady?
> 
> I love this forum and I have no issues with the Mods or Think Tank.
> 
> Yeah some Staff get on my *tattas* .... but you cant have everything.
> 
> And a personal suggestion ..... I really wish you would not use words like "arse" etc. ..... ladies are too beautiful a creation for such words to be pouring out. Call me old fashioned, but I really wish you would oblige.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Doc: Would you be kind enough to translate this word *Tattas* for the benefit of those of us who do not have the good fortune of knowing your Indo language. I am sure there are many of us here who, I am afraid have missed the punch line.

We have heard of TATAS in India - but have never heard of TATTAS.
Thank you.


----------



## Spitfighter

^^ That would be hindi slang for testicles. 

I agree with doc in that some of the staff is notoriously irritating, I just tend to ignore them these days. 

As expected the thread descended into nothing but snide comments and meaningless chest thumping.


----------



## Mercenary

To My Pakistani Compatriots...

Please respond in a civilized manner so that we can have an intellectual debate.

These childish responses are more for kindergarten children and not for intelligent people analyzing defense issues.


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## FreekiN

Since the thread turned into a babbling fest after what I posted, im going to post it again and hope it doesnt get wrecked.



> Israel probably has WAY MORE.





Black blood said:


> *I can't Understand why guys are fighting a decade old Statics:
> 
> Here is the latest one from 2009:*
> 
> Country	Warheads active/total*	Year of first test	CTBT status
> Five nuclear weapons states from the NPT
> United States	2,623 / 9,400[3]	1945 ("Trinity")	Signatory
> Russia (former Soviet Union)	4,718 / 13,000[3]	1949 ("RDS-1")	Ratifier
> United Kingdom	<160 / 185[3]	1952 ("Hurricane")	Ratifier
> France	~300 / 300[3]	1960 ("Gerboise Bleue")	Ratifier
> China	~180 / 240[3]	1964 ("596")	Signatory
> Non-NPT nuclear powers
> *India	n.a. / 60-80[3]	1974 ("Smiling Buddha")	Non-signatory*
> *Pakistan	n.a. / 70-90[3]	1998 ("Chagai-I")	Non-signatory*
> North Korea	n.a. / <10[3]	2006 (2006 test)	Non-signatory
> Undeclared nuclear powers
> Israel	n.a. / 80[3]	unknown or 1979 (See Vela Incident)	Signatory
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Now put your brains to work!!




"*Dude this report was deliberately issued by US to please Pakistan and try to remove the Indian fear from Pakistani mind at a very crucial and urgent time, Another plight game of which Pakistan become tangled. I hope some day US stop playing with Pakistan.*" - devd



> Sounds like an inconvenient reaction to an inconvenient truth.
> 
> If you did some research you would have found this publication was not made for Pakistan and was not made by a single source. The Federation of American Scientists and the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists have most notably confirmed the accuracy of the estimates of these representations. These two organizations are not government controlled and are actually private.


----------



## Aeri-Eye

*Vsdoc* ​
Yeah your army, navy & af is coming. We Pakistani's are scared, we don't know what we should do.........  

According to you guys, weren't Pakistan suppose to break up 6 months ago?   LOL

Keeping dreaming dude.

I agree with the fact that your army is bigger than us, have more weapons, your af is also far better than ours and your navy is, without a doubt, bigger than us and have more advanced weapons.

But you know, there is one thing your country lacks. That is balls. You guys don't have the guts to come up to us and face us. Mumbai drama, staged by your own government, proved it. It doesn't get bigger than this, you didn't had the balls to attack us then, and, without a shadow of a doubt, your country won't be able to grow balls till atleast next 10-20 yrs. The only thing you did after Mumbai drama was to cry infront of the world and sent just two jets to "carry out surgical strikes" in Pakistan. Ha ha.

If, somehow your army does manage to defeat our army and march through Lahore & Islamabad, as per your claims, do you really think the People of Pakistan will sit down and let this happen? Let me tell you one thing, our people don't fear death. Yes, we do have our differences, but when a country like India threatens to send us back to stone age, our people unite, we stand up and become one. We face the enemy together, and give a tight slap to any bastard who has the guts to challenge Pakistan. Please don't live in a dream that Balouchi will fight against Pakistan in an event of a war. We will all unite, Balouchis, Sindhis, Punjabi etc will all become one and will teach your country a lesson that it will never forget. 

If our army fails to defend our nation, which is very very very unlikely, then the People of Pakistan will stand up and will give your "awesome" army a great treatment. I for once would be more than happy to arm myself and score some points against your army and there are 1000s, if not million, just like me.

Ohhh, i forgot to mention ISI . Well, let's just keep ISI out of this because our Army & our People will give you enough nightmares.


----------



## Mercenary

Aeri-Eye said:


> *Vsdoc* ​
> Yeah your army, navy & af is coming. We Pakistani's are scared, we don't know what we should do.........
> 
> According to you guys, weren't Pakistan suppose to break up 6 months ago?   LOL
> 
> Keeping dreaming dude.
> 
> I agree with the fact that your army is bigger than us, have more weapons, your af is also far better than ours and your navy is, without a doubt, bigger than us and have more advanced weapons.
> 
> But you know, there is one thing your country lacks. That is balls. You guys don't have the guts to come up to us and face us.



I am a Proud Pakistani but wtf are you babbling about?

Have you forgotten 1965 and 1971 and 1999 Wars?




Aeri-Eye said:


> Mumbai drama, staged by your own government, proved it. It doesn't get bigger than this, you didn't had the balls to attack us then, and, without a shadow of a doubt, your country won't be able to grow balls till atleast next 10-20 yrs. The only thing you did after Mumbai drama was to cry infront of the world and sent just two jets to "carry out surgical strikes" in Pakistan. Ha ha.



Can you explain to me how it was proved when the Pak Gov't acknowledged that militants based from Pak carried out the attack?

And the daily attacks occurring in Pak in a similar style to that of Mumbai points out to militants in Pak.



Aeri-Eye said:


> If, somehow your army does manage to defeat our army and march through Lahore & Islamabad, as per your claims, do you really think the People of Pakistan will sit down and let this happen?



If you had read the article. India has no intention in conquering Pakistan or capturing its major cities. It will fight a battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and fight a war of maneuver in Southern Punjab. Its objectives is to engage and destroy the Pakistani military. 



Aeri-Eye said:


> Let me tell you one thing, our people don't fear death. Yes, we do have our differences, but when a country like India threatens to send us back to stone age, our people unite, we stand up and become one. We face the enemy together, and give a tight slap to any bastard who has the guts to challenge Pakistan. Please don't live in a dream that Balouchi will fight against Pakistan in an event of a war. We will all unite, Balouchis, Sindhis, Punjabi etc will all become one and will teach your country a lesson that it will never forget.



Indians are equally as patriotic about India as Pakistanis are about Pakistanis. Pakistanis don't have a leg up on anyone when it comes to loving their country.

If they loved their country, then why are so many immigrating out of Pakistan given the opportunity.

I just read a poll, 65% of all Pakistanis would leave Pakistan if given the opportunity.




Aeri-Eye said:


> If our army fails to defend our nation, which is very very very unlikely, then the People of Pakistan will stand up and will give your "awesome" army a great treatment. I for once would be more than happy to arm myself and score some points against your army and there are 1000s, if not million, just like me.
> 
> Ohhh, i forgot to mention ISI . Well, let's just keep ISI out of this because our Army & our People will give you enough nightmares.



Pakistan Army needs to increase its Armored Forces, Artillery, and to massively reinforce Army Reserve South if it stands a chance against India.

We also needs to set up train tracks so that in a war with India, China can quickly rush in supplies and they can quickly arrive by train to the front.

Being Patriotic is good...but when your answers wither down to utter nonsense which rivals the IQ of a 6 year old grade schooler...then you shouldn't be commenting.

Because you not only make yourself look bad...you make Pakistanis look bad. 

Cheers

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## karan.1970

vsdoc said:


> Well, I would have suggested you to do the same.
> 
> But the rules are different for Pakistanis and Indians.
> 
> So while we grow, you beg and copy.
> 
> So either you beg the Americans or the Chinese for a pair.
> 
> Or you get an outdated set, and copy-paste a Xerox to your nether regions ...... and proclaim to the world that you were the first to grow them.
> 
> Let me know which way you decide to "swing"
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Good to have you here doc.. Like your style...Someone had to make the mood a bit lighter here..


----------



## karan.1970

khalidali said:


> And by the way even if we copy we are good at it, *at least we dont beg others *for technology claim to be ours. Do R&D on it for ages and still come out with nothing like a pathetic loser. So it is good that we copy and copy well so we can make it work to give you a heart &@$$ burn.



huh?... didnt i see another thread day dreaming about 80 super cobras from US. Mr Zardari continuously asking for drone technology.. Brotherhood with Turkey to get new technology innovations...billions of dollars in aid and Mr Zardari's statements every week asking for payments from the aid to be released....


----------



## karan.1970

Narad said:


> *There has never been and there is simply no parallels between India and Pakistan. *This whole Rant and rhetoric and additional medical BS all over here is a big




The funny thing is that its been so long that you heard the term I ndo - P ak in the international circuits. The term has been long replaced by another term af-??? that has been banned in this forum

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## Spitfighter

Mercenary said:


> I am a Proud Pakistani but wtf are you babbling about?
> 
> Have you forgotten 1965 and 1971 and 1999 Wars?
> 
> Can you explain to me how it was proved when the Pak Gov't acknowledged that militants based from Pak carried out the attack?
> 
> And the daily attacks occurring in Pak in a similar style to that of Mumbai points out to militants in Pak.
> 
> If you had read the article. India has no intention in conquering Pakistan or capturing its major cities. It will fight a battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and fight a war of maneuver in Southern Punjab. Its objectives is to engage and destroy the Pakistani military.
> 
> Indians are equally as patriotic about India as Pakistanis are about Pakistanis. Pakistanis don't have a leg up on anyone when it comes to loving their country.
> 
> If they loved their country, then why are so many immigrating out of Pakistan given the opportunity.
> 
> I just read a poll, 65% of all Pakistanis would leave Pakistan if given the opportunity.
> 
> Pakistan Army needs to increase its Armored Forces, Artillery, and to massively reinforce Army Reserve South if it stands a chance against India.
> 
> We also needs to set up train tracks so that in a war with India, China can quickly rush in supplies and they can quickly arrive by train to the front.
> 
> Being Patriotic is good...but when your answers wither down to utter nonsense which rivals the IQ of a 6 year old grade schooler...then you shouldn't be commenting.
> 
> Because you not only make yourself look bad...you make Pakistanis look bad.
> 
> Cheers



Best comment on this thread so far. Thank you.


----------



## vsdoc

Mercenary said:


> I am a Proud Pakistani but wtf are you babbling about?
> 
> Have you forgotten 1965 and 1971 and 1999 Wars?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain to me how it was proved when the Pak Gov't acknowledged that militants based from Pak carried out the attack?
> 
> And the daily attacks occurring in Pak in a similar style to that of Mumbai points out to militants in Pak.
> 
> 
> 
> If you had read the article. India has no intention in conquering Pakistan or capturing its major cities. It will fight a battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and fight a war of maneuver in Southern Punjab. Its objectives is to engage and destroy the Pakistani military.
> 
> 
> 
> Indians are equally as patriotic about India as Pakistanis are about Pakistanis. Pakistanis don't have a leg up on anyone when it comes to loving their country.
> 
> If they loved their country, then why are so many immigrating out of Pakistan given the opportunity.
> 
> I just read a poll, 65% of all Pakistanis would leave Pakistan if given the opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Army needs to increase its Armored Forces, Artillery, and to massively reinforce Army Reserve South if it stands a chance against India.
> 
> We also needs to set up train tracks so that in a war with India, China can quickly rush in supplies and they can quickly arrive by train to the front.
> 
> Being Patriotic is good...but when your answers wither down to utter nonsense which rivals the IQ of a 6 year old grade schooler...then you shouldn't be commenting.
> 
> Because you not only make yourself look bad...you make Pakistanis look bad.
> 
> Cheers



For whatever its worth, you have just joined the league of Fatman, Taimi (of old), Muse, Mastan, AllGreen, and AgnosticMuslim (in non-UN mode) in my book sir.

I look forward to reading more from you.

Cheers, Doc


----------



## Condor

vsdoc said:


> For whatever its worth, you have just joined the league of Fatman, Taimi (of old), Muse, Mastan, AllGreen, and AgnosticMuslim (in non-UN mode) in my book sir.
> 
> I look forward to reading more from you.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Sounds more like a Pro_India alliance to me. Are you sure Timai has switched sides?


----------



## vsdoc

Condor said:


> Sounds more like a Pro_India alliance to me. Are you sure Timai has switched sides?



Are you insinuating that I like the posts of the guys mentioned cause they are pro-India?

Soch kar bolo bhai .... these are all heavyweights .... and going by your posts to date, your swinging way out of your weight class.

Cheers, Doc


----------



## Aslan

karan.1970 said:


> Brotherhood with Turkey to get new technology innovations



Now did you miss out to read on the articles posted by many over the relations between Turkey and Pakistan. Go search them and or ask the Turkish members on this forum that what it is all about and then try to post some common sense. As far as Zardari goes, well it is an open secret that what all of Pakistanis think of him. And lets see that how long will he survive.


----------



## Valiant_Soul

Mercenary said:


> I am a Proud Pakistani but wtf are you babbling about?
> 
> Have you forgotten 1965 and 1971 and 1999 Wars?
> 
> Can you explain to me how it was proved when the Pak Gov't acknowledged that militants based from Pak carried out the attack?
> 
> And the daily attacks occurring in Pak in a similar style to that of Mumbai points out to militants in Pak.



Good to know that there are people on the other side who do have knowledge and acknowledgement of truth.



> If you had read the article. India has no intention in conquering Pakistan or capturing its major cities. It will fight a battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and fight a war of maneuver in Southern Punjab. Its objectives is to engage and destroy the Pakistani military.



Even that in a purely defensive mode. Even a little cat would attack you, if you corner it and leave it with no other option.



> Being Patriotic is good...but when your answers wither down to utter nonsense which rivals the IQ of a 6 year old grade schooler...then you shouldn't be commenting.



People on either side hate each other, just for the sake of hating. Your post gives a feeling that it is after all not so difficult to like each other, only if we honestly follow the truth and try and understand each other's position.


----------



## Condor

vsdoc said:


> Are you insinuating that I like the posts of the guys mentioned cause they are pro-India?
> 
> Soch kar bolo bhai .... these are all heavyweights .... and going by your posts to date, your swinging way out of your weight class.
> 
> Cheers, Doc


Cheers Doc,
Insinuating nothing here. Just an observation that refers to your likes which work in favor of India in one way or another without their being aware of it.
They are more Pro-West and now the West and India have have identical objectives, thats all.

Speaking of class - your posts are poor specimen of a first class Indian a respected Doctor so to speak of.

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## ek_indian

Condor said:


> Insinuating nothing here. Just an observation that refers to your likes which work in favor of India in one way or another without their being aware of it.
> They are more Pro-West and now the West and India have have identical objectives, thats all.



That's a serious allegation bro. They are very senior and respected members. 



Condor said:


> Speaking of class - your posts are poor specimen of a first class Indian a respected Doctor so to speak of.



Following you several post, may I request to post something which is relevant rather than making a shot at vsdoc.


----------



## Naradmuni

Condor said:


> They are more Pro-West and now the West and India have have identical objectives, thats all.



Buddy, pakistan always had two voices, one of the sensible elites, people having so called western mindset and the other one being of the jingoistic mullahs and their fan followings in the masses. The two have never been going along with each other very well. Call Zardari a traitor because of accepting KLB ? The jingoistics will agree but the elites wont. 

It is but obvious that the point of opinion of these elites command immediate respect by not only Indians but westeners as well.


----------



## Aslan

Narad said:


> Buddy, pakistan always had two voices, one of the sensible elites, people having so called western mindset and the other one being of the jingoistic mullahs and their fan followings in the masses. The two have never been going along with each other very well. Call Zardari a traitor because of accepting KLB ? The jingoistics will agree but the elites wont.
> 
> It is but obvious that the point of opinion of these elites command immediate respect by not only Indians but westeners as well.


 
Dude the Pakistani masses are the real owners of the country and not the elite. Tell me something that today if the indian elite will start taking dictations from lets say Russia and ignore the common man what you as citizens of the country will like.
KLB, was a slap in the face of a common Pakistani and was nothing more then a glorified bribe to the politicians. And of course the west and india will respect the opinion of the elites because they are singing to the tone of the music that you like.
So it is not always as clear as black and white, and not every one that is anti gov is pro extrimists. And mind you not all the mula's aka the Imams are bad. The only ones that act dumb are either in politics and or are with the TTP. But then there are many who are very educated and make alot of sence. But why would you care, any one that is not singing to your tone, is anti west. Stop looking at things from your own prospective, you dont agree with others cool, but labeing them for that very reason


----------



## vsdoc

Who gives a fig about elite and mullas here man?

Get back to the topic. This is not a class debate.

India is hitting Pakistan hard ..... on land, in and from the air, and from the sea.

But the war has started long before ..... with other fronts being opened and kept primed.

Old festering wounds in the tattered Pakistani fabric are presented a prime opportunity to burst forth with a longstanding pent-up pustular discharge in Balochistan ..... aided and supported by the Indian establishment and other entities working at undermining Pakistan. 

The world nods in disapproval at Pakistani atrocities and gives a silent nod of approval to the Indian liberation.

Meanwhile, winter is over, and there is a fresh push from across the Afghan border to keep thing boiling and crackling further up North.

On the West Pakistan is fighting to remain Pakistan.

In the East Pakistan is fighting to keep India out ..... along a vast border that eats up close to 70&#37; of its force levels.

But the Indian dam of patience and statesmanship has finally burst, and the waters run wild, inundating Pakistan from more than one shore.

The waters burst through the mountains in the North, with Kargil having provided a vital mock exercise and lessons learned.

The chicken neck with China is twisted and broken off, the bird now flapping in its death throes. The US makes the requisite low-rumble noises to keep the Chinese quiet.

A new route is opened up for forces to circle around and start squeezing the Pakistani head between a rock and a hard place.

The US asks for calm and peace and sanity to return ..... while Indian troops bolster the West flank, and GI Joes look away ..... or lend a helping hand ..... depending of where pakistan's tenuous grip of the last vestiges of US sympathy lie at the time.

The naval waves start flowing in from the western sea board first, with the eastern port assets deployed and rounding the cape close behind.

The Pakistani navy goes out bravely .... but the inevitable happens 3 days later, and Karachi falls. Gwadar doesn't need to fall ..... the Balochis have managed that first ...... as Indian troops stream in from the sea and from the East.

Pakistan is now Punjab and Sindh is danger of imploding.

They have bigger fish to fry than worry about Balochistan declaring Independence, as a protectorate of India.

Or about FATA, NWFP, and Waziristan going back into the Afghan fold ..... administered by the Indo-Afghan Peace Keeping Force (IAPKF).

General Kayani finally gives in, and 4 weeks to the date that India mobilised its Rapid Action Corps, the formal Charter of Surrender is signed, with him handing over his sword to General Kapoor ..... in Jhelum, Punjab.

The Indian forces pull back in a phased manner, and 8 weeks later, India and now-non-nuclear Pakistan start an era of a 1000 years of Peace and Friendship, along with Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, and Sri Lanka.

The SARC truly becomes a potent reality now, starting an era of tech sharing, common currency (the Rupee), open trade corridors, and civil exchange in culture, education, sports, power, agriculture, and water, with whom China develops close trade ties, to make this the richest region of the world in less than a decade. 

Cheers, Doc


----------



## ek_indian

vsdoc said:


> Who gives a fig about elite and mullas here man?
> 
> Get back to the topic. This is not a class debate.
> 
> India is hitting Pakistan hard ..... on land, in and from the air, and from the sea.
> 
> But the war has started long before ..... with other fronts being opened and kept primed.
> 
> Old festering wounds in the tattered Pakistani fabric are presented a prime opportunity to burst forth with a longstanding pent-up pustular discharge in Balochistan ..... aided and supported by the Indian establishment and other entities working at undermining Pakistan.
> 
> The world nods in disapproval at Pakistani atrocities and gives a silent nod of approval to the Indian liberation.
> 
> Meanwhile, winter is over, and there is a fresh push from across the Afghan border to keep thing boiling and crackling further up North.
> 
> On the West Pakistan is fighting to remain Pakistan.
> 
> In the East Pakistan is fighting to keep India out ..... along a vast border that eats up close to 70&#37; of its force levels.
> 
> But the Indian dam of patience and statesmanship has finally burst, and the waters run wild, inundating Pakistan from more than one shore.
> 
> The waters burst through the mountains in the North, with Kargil having provided a vital mock exercise and lessons learned.
> 
> The chicken neck with China is twisted and broken off, the bird now flapping in its death throes. The US makes the requisite low-rumble noises to keep the Chinese quiet.
> 
> A new route is opened up for forces to circle around and start squeezing the Pakistani head between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> The US asks for calm and peace and sanity to return ..... while Indian troops bolster the West flank, and GI Joes look away ..... or lend a helping hand ..... depending of where pakistan's tenuous grip of the last vestiges of US sympathy lie at the time.
> 
> The naval waves start flowing in from the western sea board first, with the eastern port assets deployed and rounding the cape close behind.
> 
> The Pakistani navy goes out bravely .... but the inevitable happens 3 days later, and Karachi falls. Gwadar doesn't need to fall ..... the Balochis have managed that first ...... as Indian troops stream in from the sea and from the East.
> 
> Pakistan is now Punjab and Sindh is danger of imploding.
> 
> They have bigger fish to fry than worry about Balochistan declaring Independence, as a protectorate of India.
> 
> Or about FATA, NWFP, and Waziristan going back into the Afghan fold ..... administered by the Indo-Afghan Peace Keeping Force (IAPKF).
> 
> General Kayani finally gives in, and 4 weeks to the date that India mobilised its Rapid Action Corps, the formal Charter of Surrender is signed, with him handing over his sword to General Kapoor.
> 
> The Indian forces pull back in a phased manner, and 8 weeks later, India and now-non-nuclear Pakistan start an era of a 1000 years of Peace and Friendship, along with Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, and Sri Lanka.
> 
> The SARC truly becomes a potent reality now, starting an era of tech sharing, common currency (the Rupee), open trade corridors, and civil exchange in culture, education, sports, power, agriculture, and water, with whom China develops close trade ties, to make this the richest region of the world in less than a decade.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Doc, this was a flame. I disagree with what you are suggesting.

(1) Why would Pakistan surrender. The point of the article to make sure Pakistan existance is never threatened. 

(2) When such condition arises, India should be ready for a mushroom. 

(3) I agree India would retailate but this is what the article says to avoid. 

(4) No one gets so many week's time because of international pressure. If I remember correctly "cold start" doctorine is formulated for short term wars only.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^^

Your delusional mind has at last got the better of you,
In your wildest dreams, India is coming hard from all ends, however if it ever musters enough strength to feel adventurous, basically like a stray animal, it just needs a whack behind the ears to get back into the line.
The expression you portray of your might can at best be described as,
Fur coat and no knickers.


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## vsdoc

Pakistan's existence is never threatened. 

Pakistan surrenders, we pull back.

Balochistan is not our problem .... it is theirs to solve ..... and they failed.

We were simply in the area at the time.

As for their North-West, not even their own Government considers it mainstream Pakistan under Pakistan writ. And their Army is sent in to invade it as if it were a different country. 

Again, it is the problem of Afghanistan and Pakistan. And we will side our friend Afghanistan who would otherwise be too weak to stand up to more powerful Pakistani bullying.

International pressure and backdoor politics will be there ..... but never before would the world have seen an armed conflict of THIS magnitude between two powerful Nuclear armies ..... so the rules of engagement are different ..... and we and the world would be pussyfooting gingerly in uncharted territory ..... of the bluff and double-bluff of nuclear poker.

I hope it is not seen as a flame but simply yet another of countless war scenarios drawn up and debated and countered by people on both sides ..... without abusive name calling and gonad and bladder related innuendos.

Cheers, Doc


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## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^^

I eagerly await this Bollywood flop......... again.


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Who gives a fig about elite and mullas here man?
> 
> Get back to the topic. This is not a class debate.
> 
> *Now you seriously need to STFU, as I was not talking to you at all and was replying to someone elses post. As a matter of fact you should be the last person on earth to tell someone else to stick to the topic. So all I have to say to you is stick it. And yes if you want to go running to the modes to complain about my post be my guest.*
> 
> India is hitting Pakistan hard ..... on land, in and from the air, and from the sea.
> 
> But the war has started long before ..... with other fronts being opened and kept primed.
> 
> Old festering wounds in the tattered Pakistani fabric are presented a prime opportunity to burst forth with a longstanding pent-up pustular discharge in Balochistan ..... aided and supported by the Indian establishment and other entities working at undermining Pakistan.
> 
> The world nods in disapproval at Pakistani atrocities and gives a silent nod of approval to the Indian liberation.
> 
> Meanwhile, winter is over, and there is a fresh push from across the Afghan border to keep thing boiling and crackling further up North.
> 
> On the West Pakistan is fighting to remain Pakistan.
> 
> In the East Pakistan is fighting to keep India out ..... along a vast border that eats up close to 70% of its force levels.
> 
> But the Indian dam of patience and statesmanship has finally burst, and the waters run wild, inundating Pakistan from more than one shore.
> 
> The waters burst through the mountains in the North, with Kargil having provided a vital mock exercise and lessons learned.
> 
> The chicken neck with China is twisted and broken off, the bird now flapping in its death throes. The US makes the requisite low-rumble noises to keep the Chinese quiet.
> 
> A new route is opened up for forces to circle around and start squeezing the Pakistani head between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> The US asks for calm and peace and sanity to return ..... while Indian troops bolster the West flank, and GI Joes look away ..... or lend a helping hand ..... depending of where pakistan's tenuous grip of the last vestiges of US sympathy lie at the time.
> 
> The naval waves start flowing in from the western sea board first, with the eastern port assets deployed and rounding the cape close behind.
> 
> The Pakistani navy goes out bravely .... but the inevitable happens 3 days later, and Karachi falls. Gwadar doesn't need to fall ..... the Balochis have managed that first ...... as Indian troops stream in from the sea and from the East.
> 
> Pakistan is now Punjab and Sindh is danger of imploding.
> 
> They have bigger fish to fry than worry about Balochistan declaring Independence, as a protectorate of India.
> 
> Or about FATA, NWFP, and Waziristan going back into the Afghan fold ..... administered by the Indo-Afghan Peace Keeping Force (IAPKF).
> 
> General Kayani finally gives in, and 4 weeks to the date that India mobilised its Rapid Action Corps, the formal Charter of Surrender is signed, with him handing over his sword to General Kapoor ..... in Jhelum, Punjab.
> 
> The Indian forces pull back in a phased manner, and 8 weeks later, India and now-non-nuclear Pakistan start an era of a 1000 years of Peace and Friendship, along with Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, and Sri Lanka.
> 
> The SARC truly becomes a potent reality now, starting an era of tech sharing, common currency (the Rupee), open trade corridors, and civil exchange in culture, education, sports, power, agriculture, and water, with whom China develops close trade ties, to make this the richest region of the world in less than a decade.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



As your Orgasm is now over and your brain dead why dont you go prepare for another reunion with your RSS buddies. Have drinks and hallucinate about how you will achieve the above. And but remember this; life has a funny way of biting one in the @$$. you wont understand, enjoy till it last. And keep living in denial, at least one thing proves its self here that how much of a peace loving nation yours is. A person who claims to be a doc could have such a pathetic pattern of thoughts. I feel sorry for the people who would come to you for medical treatment. Tell me whats your criteria of looking at the patients, for you are they humans or do they belong to a certain religious group. Cause from your garbage one can easily assume that you probably think in that fashion too. And as for Pakistan it is a reality a reality that your country and the warmongers like you could not digest, and will not be able to. Worry about your own house first and then tell us what you can couldnt do to Pakistan. Cause right now your countries case is like that of a turkey which kept feeding on cow poop and kept going higher on the tree but after reaching a certain height was shot by a hunter. So keep eating the Sh!t and keep going higher on the tree, and then wait for the daddy yankee to do what they do the best. 

And also know this and put it in your thick skull; enough is enough and your flaming has gone too far. Remember you are talking about my country. Respect it like you want yours to be respected. Because cherry pickling what you like and what you dont and who you would like to read and who not, is none of any one elses business. But when you decide to take it to another level and start talking about my country that is personal. So either be ready to be on the receiving end of the same ***** that you are throwing this way. And not go around whining like a loser that you dont like the attitude of certain posters and staff. Because many of you dont like it when your country is criticized even rightly so.
And it goes for all the psychopaths who agree with your school of though.


----------



## Naradmuni

vsdoc said:


> Old festering wounds in the tattered Pakistani fabric are presented a prime opportunity to burst forth with a longstanding pent-up pustular discharge in Balochistan ..... aided and supported by the Indian establishment and other entities working at undermining Pakistan.
> 
> The world nods in disapproval at Pakistani atrocities and gives a silent nod of approval to the Indian liberation.



I would agree with doc on this. The sudden vanishing of acts of Terrorism in India and particularly JnK returning to normalacy and on the other hand Pakistan suffering terribly both economically and in internal security. Plus its credibility issue among international community.

I sense it must be handiwork of Indian strategic pundits to keep pakistan engaged in its internal problems and hence guarantee a peace dividend for India. And as far as US is concerned, India now enjoys equal patronage as that of Isarel to pound its adversaries overtly or covertly.

Whichever way, but if that ensures there would be no Market Bombings in India during Diwali and no more attacks on Temples and no more Plane hijacking, I am a big  for their strategy (keeping emotions aside). 

P.S. My analysis, No offence,


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## vsdoc

khalidali said:


> As your Orgasm is now over and your brain dead why dont you go prepare for another reunion with your RSS buddies. Have drinks and hallucinate about how you will achieve the above. And but remember this; life has a funny way of biting one in the @$$. you wont understand, enjoy till it last. And keep living in denial, at least one thing proves its self here that how much of a peace loving nation yours is. A person who claims to be a doc could have such a pathetic pattern of thoughts. I feel sorry for the people who would come to you for medical treatment. Tell me whats your criteria of looking at the patients, for you are they humans or do they belong to a certain religious group. Cause from your garbage one can easily assume that you probably think in that fashion too. And as for Pakistan it is a reality a reality that your country and the warmongers like you could not digest, and will not be able to. Worry about your own house first and then tell us what you can couldnt do to Pakistan. Cause right now your countries case is like that of a turkey which kept feeding on cow poop and kept going higher on the tree but after reaching a certain height was shot by a hunter. So keep eating the Sh!t and keep going higher on the tree, and then wait for the daddy yankee to do what they do the best.
> 
> And also know this and put it in your thick skull; enough is enough and your flaming has gone too far. Remember you are talking about my country. Respect it like you want yours to be respected. Because cherry pickling what you like and what you dont and who you would like to read and who not, is none of any one elses business. But when you decide to take it to another level and start talking about my country that is personal. So either be ready to be on the receiving end of the same ***** that you are throwing this way. And not go around whining like a loser that you dont like the attitude of certain posters and staff. Because many of you dont like it when your country is criticized even rightly so.
> And it goes for all the psychopaths who agree with your school of though.



Khalid bete, thanda piyo, aur gussa thuko.

You're taking this way too personally buddy.

Please indulge yourself all you want about your own fantasies regarding India.

Rest assured unlike you I shall not find the need to get personal.

Your post is too emotional to report. Dil se bolne waale ke khilaaf mujhe koi shikayat nahin! 

Cheers, Doc


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## ek_indian

khalidali said:


> As your Orgasm is now over and your brain dead why don&#8217;t you go prepare for another reunion with your RSS buddies. Have drinks and hallucinate about how you will achieve the above. And but remember this; life has a funny way of biting one in the @$$. you won&#8217;t understand, enjoy till it last. And keep living in denial, at least one thing proves its self here that how much of a peace loving nation yours is. A person who claims to be a doc could have such a pathetic pattern of thoughts. I feel sorry for the people who would come to you for medical treatment. Tell me what&#8217;s your criteria of looking at the patients, for you are they humans or do they belong to a certain religious group. Cause from your garbage one can easily assume that you probably think in that fashion too. And as for Pakistan it is a reality a reality that your country and the warmongers like you could not digest, and will not be able to. Worry about your own house first and then tell us what you can couldn&#8217;t do to Pakistan. Cause right now your countries case is like that of a turkey which kept feeding on cow poop and kept going higher on the tree but after reaching a certain height was shot by a hunter. So keep eating the Sh!t and keep going higher on the tree, and then wait for the daddy yankee to do what they do the best.
> 
> And also know this and put it in your thick skull; enough is enough and your flaming has gone too far. Remember you are talking about my country. Respect it like you want yours to be respected. Because cherry pickling what you like and what you don&#8217;t and who you would like to read and who not, is none of any one else&#8217;s business. But when you decide to take it to another level and start talking about my country that is personal. So either be ready to be on the receiving end of the same ***** that you are throwing this way. And not go around whining like a loser that you don&#8217;t like the attitude of certain posters and staff. Because many of you don&#8217;t like it when your country is criticized even rightly so.
> And it goes for all the psychopaths who agree with your school of though.



You haven't given any suggestion to counter Indian actions/strategies apart from this _emotional atyachar_.

BTW, we already know your stregths when we were at receiving end. remember Khalistan, Kashmir, NE etc. etc....India has not started paying back yet. Pray it won't. 

Remeber, we have seen what happens when less resources are spent on fueling insurgencies on large area. Consider while replacing words less and large....


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## grey boy 2

My dear Indian friends, please kindly leave China out of your super-

power wet dream, especially my dear self-proclaim "Doc"

Personally i don't give a damn about you doing your routine open-

defecation on the forum as long you don't drag China into it.

You know what? you really need to take a good look at a clip called

"Crushing Moment", that might help you to wake up from your wet

dream. BTW, i really admired how your army boys fight, holding both

hands up the air, were they doing some kind of "Yoga", and the most

amazing thing the Indians army commander was really happy with

a big smile on his face while surrendered to the PLA. Priceless.

May i considered that as a sign of Sino-Indo friendship ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Condor

Is there another Doc here?

Dr Sangeen Shah please rush in with your team and a large dose of tranquillizers.


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## Condor

Deleted _XXX


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## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Khalid bete, thanda piyo, aur gussa thuko.
> 
> You're taking this way too personally buddy.
> 
> Please indulge yourself all you want about your own fantasies regarding India.
> 
> Rest assured unlike you I shall not find the need to get personal.
> 
> Your post is too emotional to report. Dil se bolne waale ke khilaaf mujhe koi shikayat nahin!
> 
> Cheers, Doc



I would be more then happy to appolagise to any one and infact all the indians right now if it can be proved, that I have taken the liberty to start shooting insults at your country with out provocation. And that also will be somthing that will be hard to find I am sure.


----------



## Aslan

ek_indian said:


> You haven't given any suggestion to counter Indian actions/strategies apart from this _emotional atyachar_.
> 
> BTW, we already know your stregths when we are at receiving end. remember Khalistan, Kashmir, Ne etc. etc....India has not started paying back yet. Pray it won't.
> 
> Remeber, we have seen what happens when less resources are spent on fueling insurgencies on large area. Consider while replacing words less and large....




Frankly I have not even tried to put forth an argument that how will we counter a rediculas claim. Come on I was just replying to something that made no sence, but was definetly insulting to my country. So as I said in the post that you quoted respect my country like you like yours to be respected.


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## vsdoc

Where have I insulted you or pakistan man?

Not that I owe you an explanation, but I would really like to know.

Or are you mistaking the self-righteous indignation of a wounded ego that comes with being shown your place to be an insult?

Cheers, Doc


----------



## Mercenary

vsdoc said:


> Who gives a fig about elite and mullas here man?
> 
> Get back to the topic. This is not a class debate.
> 
> India is hitting Pakistan hard ..... on land, in and from the air, and from the sea.
> 
> But the war has started long before ..... with other fronts being opened and kept primed.
> 
> Old festering wounds in the tattered Pakistani fabric are presented a prime opportunity to burst forth with a longstanding pent-up pustular discharge in Balochistan ..... aided and supported by the Indian establishment and other entities working at undermining Pakistan.
> 
> The world nods in disapproval at Pakistani atrocities and gives a silent nod of approval to the Indian liberation.
> 
> Meanwhile, winter is over, and there is a fresh push from across the Afghan border to keep thing boiling and crackling further up North.
> 
> On the West Pakistan is fighting to remain Pakistan.
> 
> In the East Pakistan is fighting to keep India out ..... along a vast border that eats up close to 70% of its force levels.
> 
> But the Indian dam of patience and statesmanship has finally burst, and the waters run wild, inundating Pakistan from more than one shore.
> 
> The waters burst through the mountains in the North, with Kargil having provided a vital mock exercise and lessons learned.
> 
> The chicken neck with China is twisted and broken off, the bird now flapping in its death throes. The US makes the requisite low-rumble noises to keep the Chinese quiet.
> 
> A new route is opened up for forces to circle around and start squeezing the Pakistani head between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> The US asks for calm and peace and sanity to return ..... while Indian troops bolster the West flank, and GI Joes look away ..... or lend a helping hand ..... depending of where pakistan's tenuous grip of the last vestiges of US sympathy lie at the time.
> 
> The naval waves start flowing in from the western sea board first, with the eastern port assets deployed and rounding the cape close behind.
> 
> The Pakistani navy goes out bravely .... but the inevitable happens 3 days later, and Karachi falls. Gwadar doesn't need to fall ..... the Balochis have managed that first ...... as Indian troops stream in from the sea and from the East.
> 
> Pakistan is now Punjab and Sindh is danger of imploding.
> 
> They have bigger fish to fry than worry about Balochistan declaring Independence, as a protectorate of India.
> 
> Or about FATA, NWFP, and Waziristan going back into the Afghan fold ..... administered by the Indo-Afghan Peace Keeping Force (IAPKF).
> 
> General Kayani finally gives in, and 4 weeks to the date that India mobilised its Rapid Action Corps, the formal Charter of Surrender is signed, with him handing over his sword to General Kapoor ..... in Jhelum, Punjab.
> 
> The Indian forces pull back in a phased manner, and 8 weeks later, India and now-non-nuclear Pakistan start an era of a 1000 years of Peace and Friendship, along with Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, and Sri Lanka.
> 
> The SARC truly becomes a potent reality now, starting an era of tech sharing, common currency (the Rupee), open trade corridors, and civil exchange in culture, education, sports, power, agriculture, and water, with whom China develops close trade ties, to make this the richest region of the world in less than a decade.
> 
> Cheers, Doc



I don't agree with your analysis.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.


----------



## Aslan

vsdoc said:


> Where have I insulted you or pakistan man?
> 
> Not that I owe you an explanation, but I would really like to know.
> 
> Or are you mistaking the self-righteous indignation of a wounded ego that comes with being shown your place to be an insult?
> 
> Cheers, Doc



Well I dont know about you but when you start writing an essay about how your country will do this and that, and how your armies will run over Pakistan, and how my fellow Pakistanis will do this and that. That is insulting; to me. 
I will tell you something; agree to it or not that is your problem. What I feel is not a wonded ego, it is pride in being what I am.
I am sindh, Balochistan, Sarhad, Panjab, Kashmir. I am Pakistan.
And I am proud of it.


----------



## Naradmuni

Mercenary said:


> I don't agree with your analysis.
> 
> First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.
> 
> If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.
> 
> In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.
> 
> In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.
> 
> Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.
> 
> How does Pakistan prevent this:
> 1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.
> 
> 2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.
> 
> 3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.
> 
> If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.



You forgot to bring in the "Nuke" dimension.

Your whole plot turns upside down in this case. Care to elaborate on this dimension too.


----------



## Naradmuni

khalidali said:


> Well I dont know about you but when you start writing an essay about how your country will do this and that, and how your armies will run over Pakistan, and how my fellow Pakistanis will do this and that. That is insulting; to me.
> I will tell you something; agree to it or not that is your problem. What I feel is not a wonded ego, it is pride in being what I am.
> I am sindh, Balochistan, Sarhad, Panjab, *Kashmir*. I am Pakistan.
> And I am proud of it.



Aaal izz well, except for the highlighted part.


----------



## Aslan

Mercenary

Well merc! it is not as simple as 123 that you have stated. Yes the Pakistan Army has its handycaps but then so does the Indians. And also we are not sure that what the Pakistanis will put up in the field. How can we be so sure that there are not contingency plans put in place already. If you and me sitting on a forum could think of this stuff, the army and the AF have had some back up long ago dont you think.

Like the indians have stated that they are getting ready to fight on 2 fronts and they have planed it alredy. So what do you think that the GHQ; and its staff is doing?


----------



## Aslan

Narad said:


> Aaal izz well, except for the highlighted part.



Same here!


----------



## ek_indian

Mercenary said:


> I don't agree with your analysis.
> 
> First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.
> 
> If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.
> 
> In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.
> 
> In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.
> 
> Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.
> 
> How does Pakistan prevent this:
> 1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50&#37; chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.
> 
> 2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.
> 
> 3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.
> 
> If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.



Thanks for the sane post. This is what I was expecting.

However the biggest issue Pakistan has, IMO, is not any one of these but fund for above expansion and modernization programs. Its current economic condition and international geo-political realities are against all these. 

I am still of in openion before losing upto such extent, nuclear weapons would be bound to use. 

Also india (no side infact) does not seem to have 3-4 week time because of international pressure. 

Lastly, I suspect China will be militarily involved. They may supply stuff to Pakistan. However they can only delay the consequences not avoid it.


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## karan.1970

Narad said:


> You forgot to bring in the "Nuke" dimension.
> 
> Your whole plot turns upside down in this case. Care to elaborate on this dimension too.



No country (including India and China) in a nuclear stand off will use Nukes except as a last resort (when existence is threatened) since it would mean the nuke initiator sustaining forever crippling damage (at best) if not getting totally wiped out..

The only time nukes have been used is when the target did not have any of its own to hit back with.

The nuke option is like a typical Hindi/Pakistani movie in which the hero yells.. Ku tte main tera khoon pee jaoonga.. Never happens..


----------



## karan.1970

khalidali said:


> Now did you miss out to read on the articles posted by many over the relations between Turkey and Pakistan. Go search them and or ask the Turkish members on this forum that what it is all about and then try to post some common sense. As far as Zardari goes, well it is an open secret that what all of Pakistanis think of him. And lets see that how long will he survive.



No need for a personal attack. What I am posting is my opinion and you are totally free to disagree. But claiming that you have a monoply on Common sense and hence can decide what is and what is not, defies the same common sense you are trying to preach.


----------



## Condor

Mercenary said:


> I don't agree with your analysis.
> 
> First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.
> 
> If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.
> 
> In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.
> 
> In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.
> 
> Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.
> 
> How does Pakistan prevent this:
> 1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.
> 
> 2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.
> 
> 3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.
> 
> If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.


Even with the present Order of Battle it is still possible to win - even win decisively against overwhelming odds.
But for that to happen, few things need to change.


----------



## Aslan

karan.1970 said:


> No need for a personal attack. What I am posting is my opinion and you are totally free to disagree. But claiming that you have a monoply on Common sense and hence can decide what is and what is not, defies the same common sense you are trying to preach.



Well the same goes for you, how can you claim that the Pakistani members here are promoting the Turk-Pak Relations based on the technological facts only. Well that is why I asked you to go do some resaearch, and then post. And there are many articles here on PDF for you to go through that will explain the relationship in detial.


----------



## Windjammer

Mercenary said:


> I don't agree with your analysis.
> 
> First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.
> 
> If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.
> 
> In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.
> 
> In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.
> 
> Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.
> 
> How does Pakistan prevent this:
> 1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.
> 
> 2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.
> 
> 3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.
> 
> If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.


David-Ben-Hura is a retired Israeli army Colonel and my former neighbor, presently he is a freelance journalist and his reports and articles have appeared on CBS, CNN and Scotland on Sunday newspaper, he is well known in his circle for exposing some facts on the Pan Am disaster over Lockerbie. You can be sure that his military experience and knowledge is beyond any gloating and chest thumping and we indeed had some interesting discussions or should i say knowledge enhancement. Amongst other facts an interesting disclosure made by David was that Pakistan Army was one of the few which has evolved what's called a "War Plan" in military terms, which is it's trump card in any future battles, not only that but several Arab and other countries are adamant to obtain this from Pakistan.
Other than that, while commenting on the quantity advantage of then Soviet Block countries, Chuck Yeagar is often quoted that a Warplane is only as good as it's pilot.


----------



## vsdoc

Mercenary said:


> I don't agree with your analysis.



And thanks for telling me WHY.



> First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.



There has been a lot of talk by Balochis IN Pakistan (and not disgruntled expats as many of your compatriots like to dismiss the movement as) that they would welcome Indian help if it meant independence finally from pakistan. There was an entire feature with interviews just a few days ago on BBC. And there have been multiple wars of independence against pakistani forces - that is a historical fact. So it is difficult to pass this off as a simple insurgency of discontent. 



> If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.



Agreed so far. The scrimmage line I referred to earlier .... but two steps forward, one back, by sheer weight and firepower we bring to bear. 



> Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.



Agreed. And there will be Indian sorties out of Afghanistan bases too .... count on that. The Pakistani flyboys will simply not have enough options to even mount a modicum of a defense. Unlike on land, this will be a wipeout ..... and very early into the war at that. Our strategy demands early neutralisation.



> In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.



Agreed on the blockade part ..... and said as much in an earlier post derided by many here. Missiles will not work against our submarines .... from which most of our missile launches will come to take out your missile defenses. The surface ships can stay out of range (provided you get the missiles in the first place .... and when) till the submarines ensure safe passage. 

The next phase will be massive saturation bombardment, before the land force landings to put boots on the ground. 



> In Land, the main Indian Threat is in southern punjab where RAPID Divisions will threaten to sever the Karachi-Lahore Road. Since its open terrain, its hard to dig in and in large battles of maneuver Pakistani Forces in South will be overwhelmed.



Agreed ..... though as Narad put it, here discretion will control the natural impulse of a invading force to push too far inland and force pakistan into a corner.

Karachi however will fall. And there will be a corridor for land forces sync-up from the east and the sea to ensure that Balochistan has an option for free and unthreatened referendum.



> Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.



Here our views defer. You naval capabilities suggest (unless you pull some as yet unknown ace from out your sleeve) that your force will cease to be a plausible deterrent in 72 hours.

China has already by now lost its transit land route. And the US has made the correct sounds. One can but live in hope, but I see China sitting this one out ..... sensibly.



> How does Pakistan prevent this:
> 1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.
> 
> 2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.
> 
> 3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.
> 
> If Pakistan does not do this, then Pakistani Military will be defeated in 3-4 weeks at the most.



I have replied to this part of a previous post of yours in a previous post of mine.

Once again, thanks for the measured reply. 

Cheers, Doc


----------



## Windjammer

Why let the good times wait, General Kapoor should relive General Choudhary's banter , this time issuing victory celebrations in Karachi Gymkhana.


----------



## vsdoc

Chalo bye guys .... see you on the 27th now.

Be good! 

And watch your back ..... LOL

Cheers, Doc


----------



## karan.1970

khalidali said:


> Well the same goes for you, how can you claim that the Pakistani members here are promoting the Turk-Pak Relations based on the technological facts only. Well that is why I asked you to go do some resaearch, and then post. And there are many articles here on PDF for you to go through that will explain the relationship in detial.



My objection was on calling the post devoid of common sense. Not on any other aspect. I have not used any derogatory comment in my post. I have made an observation which you may find incorrect, but then that is difference of opinion.


----------



## Rain

First of all, it seems that Indian Defense Establishment is listening to the author( he wrote this in 2001 and cold start came into being in 2004). That makes this article very valuable for Pakistan Defense Establishment. I like to request the author to comeup with some more articles. And Please remember that you can plan how to start a war but you seldom can control it's course. 

Secondly it make me sure that we are very safe from any Indian Agression in near future. We can delay their agression even more if we establish and demonstrate a Third Strike Corps!!(which Some believe is already in offing).
as Indians have to wait till 2020 to reach the level of efficient manuering in Battle field as mentioned in the article.

Thirdly, and most importantly what is the Objective of War for india?(For me it is surprising that indian dont know what to do with Pakistan) Do they want settlement of Kashmir Issue or liberation of sindhn balochistan and NWFP.


----------



## karan.1970

Rain said:


> Thirdly, and most importantly what is the Objective of War for india?(For me it is surprising that indian dont know what to do with Pakistan) Do they want settlement of Kashmir Issue or liberation of sindhn balochistan and NWFP.



In my personal view, none of the above. All these scenarios will only come into play if India IS ATTACKED covertly or overtly.


----------



## Rain

karan.1970 said:


> In my personal view, none of the above. All these scenarios will only come into play if India IS ATTACKED covertly or overtly.



My question still stands, what will be Objective Of War????


----------



## rastor

Mercenary said:


> How does Pakistan prevent this:
> 1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50&#37; chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.



I have observed discussions elsewhere and I have come across some very knowledgeable sources point out that SAMs and high altitude missile batteries are in-effective (more so if aircraft is stealth). They are usually used to protect high value ground assets rather than attrition-ing air-forces......

Anyways these systems are very expensive can pak afford 200?



Mercenary said:


> 2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.



The Indian navy would just need to blockade karachi & gwader. Is your comment based on weak points in InNavy.... like the anti-air warfare capability....? Can these sunburn missiles be effective IN assets that prevent pak's ships from getting out not the ones that "attack" pak coast-line.

Thanks.


----------



## Condor

ek-indian:
Apologies for the delayed response. 
What makes you think I do not respect all of them as my seniors here. And value their contributions on this forum. 
When does a criticism, a different pov, an opposing view, harm the high and mighty. Do you not criticise your Govts, Prime Ministers, Ministers, leaders for what you perceive as their failures. Such criticisms only serve them to adjust to the new realities bubbling beneath them. Nothing is fixed, everything transient and we have to constantly consciously shift to get a better view. 
Those who are at the bottom rung of this board need not follow the mind set of their seniors here. Any one can blaze a new trail if he uses his imagination that appeals to many others.

I am happy to know of your interest in my post and that you have been following me. Keep going there maybe more surprises in store for you.

About your Doctor, the lesser said the better. Just one visit to his local Naval Base has done wonders for him. I wish for him to visit other services facilities all over your country as well.


----------



## Mercenary

rastor said:


> I have observed discussions elsewhere and I have come across some very knowledgeable sources point out that SAMs and high altitude missile batteries are in-effective (more so if aircraft is stealth). They are usually used to protect high value ground assets rather than attrition-ing air-forces......
> 
> Anyways these systems are very expensive can pak afford 200?



Then why is Israel so concerned about Russia selling the Iranians the S-300 even though Israel posses the most advanced Air Force in the middle east.



rastor said:


> The Indian navy would just need to blockade karachi & gwader. Is your comment based on weak points in InNavy.... like the anti-air warfare capability....? Can these sunburn missiles be effective IN assets that prevent pak's ships from getting out not the ones that "attack" pak coast-line.
> 
> Thanks.



These Sunburn Missiles are hypersonic anti-ship missiles designed by Russians to take out American Carrier Battle groups. They are designed to defeat the anti-missile counter measures on warships.


----------



## karan.1970

Rain said:


> My question still stands, what will be Objective Of War????



I dont claim to be privy to Indian Military's detailed doctrine but i would expect Retaliation and active defence.. The aim will not be capture of land but to inflict maximum possible damage on the opposing force.


----------



## pakpower

Veer said:


> From your post,you seems to agree that 99% of Indians and 93% of pakistanis will servive the nuclear war. And Indian armed forces will remain intact to wage a war.
> 
> *Then, what is the use of usual rant of Nuclear card by Pakistanis, Indian forces will *crush the Pakistani forces and we will provide the freedom to Sindh, Baluchistan, Pakhtonistan etc. And take back our part of Kashmir occupied by pakistan hence there will be peace in the South Asia and haven of terrorist will turn into a peaceful place in the world.



You guys don't have the guts to do that you fear most when the word war comes out. So will you stop your sick thoughts and don't even try to post such idiotic post again.


----------



## Spitfighter

Mercenary said:


> I don't agree with your analysis.



Thank you for your sensible and analytical posts throughout the thread. 



> First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.



Agreed. 

The time isn't right, India needs to closely watch the situation in Pakistan. IMO, the Pakistani economy will fall into complete disarray if the militants begin targeting Karachi, Pakistan's commercial hub. Pakistan or the US may also open up a second front against the Afghan Taliban in Balochistan, further weakening the internal situation. Timing IMO is everything. India will have to squeeze the WoT for everything its worth if we are to succeed in our strategic objectives.



> If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.



In your honest opinion, does India have the means to significantly degrade the Pakistani military? After all we are still in the process of acquiring much of our equipment. Obviously I'm assuming that a war will break out in the near future before Pakistan can stabilize its internal situation or receive any 'game changers' (ABM's) from China.



> Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.



Air superiority is vital to the military's plans, India will thus have to act before Pakistan can induct large numbers of JF-17's or F-16's. 



> In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.



correct me if I'm wrong but I think some of our latest destroyers have a defense against anti ship missiles. If so, how effective are these defenses? Harpoons are deadly nonetheless so I'm assuming the Naval air wing will have to be on its toes.



> Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.



That's the idea, its been 6 decades and India and Pakistan are still playing cat and mouse games with each other. The war will seek to permanently confine our disputes to the diplomatic arena.



> How does Pakistan prevent this:



Money and time. If this strategy is to work India will have to act before Pakistan can get its act together at home. If the economy recovers and Pakistan invests billions in building up its defenses, the war will do nothing more than ensure another 60 years of hostility.



> 1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50&#37; chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.



The Russians aren't selling to Iran, I doubt they'd sell the system to Pakistan, especially when we have so many deals in the pipeline. What other alternatives does Pakistan have?



> 2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.



Money is an issue, and wouldn't these missiles be vulnerable if the IAF manages to achieve some semblance of air superiority?



> 3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.



That's a little unrealistic given Pakistan defense budget and the number of countries who are willing to supply it with military hardware. The gunships will be out of the question if India buys from the US, we are buying a small airforce from them after all. 

Lastly, how much of this can the PA realistically achieve in the next year or two? I sincerely believe that we won't have to wait for too long before India and Pakistan go to war again. It'll only take one successful terrorist strike and the hawks will finally have their way.


----------



## ek_indian

Condor said:


> What makes you think I do not respect all of them as my seniors here. And value their contributions on this forum.



I never intent to say so.



Condor said:


> When does a criticism, a different pov, an opposing view, harm the high and mighty. Do you not criticise your Govts, Prime Ministers, Ministers, leaders for what you perceive as their failures. Such criticisms only serve them to adjust to the new realities bubbling beneath them. Nothing is fixed, everything transient and we have to constantly consciously shift to get a better view.
> Those who are at the bottom rung of this board need not follow the mind set of their seniors here. Any one can blaze a new trail if he uses his imagination that appeals to many others.



Agreed.
My point was, being anti-rant does not mean pro-Indian or pro-Pakistani. These are very senior members and their post has lot of information. They talk sense and thus should not be bracket with pro-X. Anyways if you are offended, I regret.



Condor said:


> I am happy to know of your interest in my post and that you have been following me. Keep going there maybe more surprises in store for you.



Waiting to hear more from you.


----------



## Condor

^^^

*"Agreed.
My point was, being anti-rant does not mean pro-Indian or pro-Pakistani. These are very senior members and their post has lot of information. They talk sense and thus should not be bracket with pro-X. Anyways if you are offended, I regret."*

Reply ek_Indian:

What does being Pro-India mean to you? Not something to look upto, right?
And why not? What is so wrong in being a Pro-Indian? Tell me.
I am Pro_Indian you are Pro_India as there are countless others all around the world, not to mention the billion plus Indian population. India is a great country, a great civilisation.
BTW have you also considered that the Seniors here on this board may be Pro-Indian and Pro-Pakistan at the same time? Does it mean anything to you?
To me and them it means PEACE.
Is it a good thing or bad?
And how bout if the bottom line was to tweak the tail of the Heavy weights in good humor.
Get rid of this word rant &#8211; used extensively here, needlessly&#8230; it has lost its lustre.
And no I don&#8217;t get offended by criticism.

You guys are all great, even your 'Cheers Doc' - I know I do get on his nerves but that is the way I am.

Cheerio


----------



## pakpower

Spitfighter said:


> Thank you for your sensible and analytical posts throughout the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> The time isn't right, India needs to closely watch the situation in Pakistan. IMO, the Pakistani economy will fall into complete disarray if the militants begin targeting Karachi, Pakistan's commercial hub. Pakistan or the US may also open up a second front against the Afghan Taliban in Balochistan, further weakening the internal situation. Timing IMO is everything. India will have to squeeze the WoT for everything its worth if we are to succeed in our strategic objectives.
> 
> 
> In your honest opinion, does India have the means to significantly degrade the Pakistani military? After all we are still in the process of acquiring much of our equipment. Obviously I'm assuming that a war will break out in the near future before Pakistan can stabilize its internal situation or receive any 'game changers' (ABM's) from China.
> 
> 
> 
> Air superiority is vital to the military's plans, India will thus have to act before Pakistan can induct large numbers of JF-17's or F-16's.
> 
> 
> 
> correct me if I'm wrong but I think some of our latest destroyers have a defense against anti ship missiles. If so, how effective are these defenses? Harpoons are deadly nonetheless so I'm assuming the Naval air wing will have to be on its toes.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the idea, its been 6 decades and India and Pakistan are still playing cat and mouse games with each other. The war will seek to permanently confine our disputes to the diplomatic arena.
> 
> 
> 
> Money and time. If this strategy is to work India will have to act before Pakistan can get its act together at home. If the economy recovers and Pakistan invests billions in building up its defenses, the war will do nothing more than ensure another 60 years of hostility.
> 
> 
> 
> The Russians aren't selling to Iran, I doubt they'd sell the system to Pakistan, especially when we have so many deals in the pipeline. What other alternatives does Pakistan have?
> 
> 
> 
> Money is an issue, and wouldn't these missiles be vulnerable if the IAF manages to achieve some semblance of air superiority?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a little unrealistic given Pakistan defense budget and the number of countries who are willing to supply it with military hardware. The gunships will be out of the question if India buys from the US, we are buying a small airforce from them after all.
> 
> Lastly, how much of this can the PA realistically achieve in the next year or two? I sincerely believe that we won't have to wait for too long before India and Pakistan go to war again. It'll only take one successful terrorist strike and the hawks will finally have their way.



What is wrong with you do you like war you sick person and all those who talks about the consiquences of wars what the hell is wrong with you guys anyways. 

Baita jubb bhi agar war hoee naan too sub saee pehlae tumharee hii phataee gee.


----------



## Mercenary

Spitfighter said:


> In your honest opinion, does India have the means to significantly degrade the Pakistani military? After all we are still in the process of acquiring much of our equipment. Obviously I'm assuming that a war will break out in the near future before Pakistan can stabilize its internal situation or receive any 'game changers' (ABM's) from China.



India has that by sheer weight of numbers and the danger is growing that India is modernizing too fast. With technology increasing leaps and bounds, Pakistan can ill afford to fall back. 

Look at the Powerful Iraqi Army in the 1st gulf War. It was annihilated by modern US Tanks by a simple leap in technology that US Tanks had the ability to fire at 3,000 meters where as the older Iraqi Tanks could only fire 1,800 meters which proved devastating.

Pakistan cannot match India, tank for tank but needs to acquire large stockpile of anti-tank missiles, to neutralize the threat.

Such as the 2006 Lebanon War where Hezbollah destroyed large numbers of Israeli tanks or the initial phase of Yom Kippur War where Egyptian Anti-Tank troops took out large numbers of Israeli Tanks.



Spitfighter said:


> Air superiority is vital to the military's plans, India will thus have to act before Pakistan can induct large numbers of JF-17's or F-16's.



I don't think there is going to be a war any time soon. US/NATO is too heavily invested in both countries.



Spitfighter said:


> correct me if I'm wrong but I think some of our latest destroyers have a defense against anti ship missiles. If so, how effective are these defenses? Harpoons are deadly nonetheless so I'm assuming the Naval air wing will have to be on its toes.



The Sunburn Missile are designed to over come any counter-measures on these ships. US is currently working on upgrading its counter-measures but India does not have them.

The Sunburn - Iran's Awesome Nuclear Anti-Ship Missile




Spitfighter said:


> The Russians aren't selling to Iran, I doubt they'd sell the system to Pakistan, especially when we have so many deals in the pipeline. What other alternatives does Pakistan have?



China has developed the HQ-9 which is a reverse engineered S-300 System. It has a shorter range than the S-300 but they are currently working on HQ-10 which is a more advanced version.

Pakistan should acquire those.



Spitfighter said:


> Money is an issue, and wouldn't these missiles be vulnerable if the IAF manages to achieve some semblance of air superiority?



Store them in hardened bunkers or use mobile launchers and use the HQ-10 to guard the air space above these missiles.



Spitfighter said:


> That's a little unrealistic given Pakistan defense budget and the number of countries who are willing to supply it with military hardware. The gunships will be out of the question if India buys from the US, we are buying a small airforce from them after all.



Not really. Pak Defence Budget has a huge wastage. Pakistan can maintain the same force with half the budget if the corruption within the armed service is ended.

US has no choice but to give us Gunships due they being an ideal anti-insurgent weapon platform. If not, we can rely on Turkey, china or south Africa for our gunship needs.




Spitfighter said:


> Lastly, how much of this can the PA realistically achieve in the next year or two? I sincerely believe that we won't have to wait for too long before India and Pakistan go to war again. It'll only take one successful terrorist strike and the hawks will finally have their way.



- In 2 years, Pak should have 50 - 60 more Fighters (F-16 + JF-17).
- Should be able to install several HQ-10 Missile batteries in sensitive areas.
- Add 500 Tanks to Pakistani Tank Forces, hopefully Al-Khalid II
- Have at least 24 new gunships (Apache or Super Cobra).
- New Frigates from China and USA, and new Submarines from Germany.

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## HZChinese

Let's review history,Indian always say they will do something in sometime.But when "sometime" came,"something" still not happended.Just think about their tanks and flight,the results look like big jokes......PAK not like this,you chase your target quiet and silence till "something" comes true.So just work hard for your target!Chinese friend bless you!

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## Mercenary

HZChinese said:


> Let's review history,Indian always say they will do something in sometime.But when "sometime" came,"something" still not happended.Just think about their tanks and flight,the results look like big jokes......PAK not like this,you chase your target quiet and silence till "something" comes true.So just work hard for your target!Chinese friend bless you!



China has always been Pakistan's True Friend

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## ashokdeiva

HZChinese said:


> Let's review history,Indian always say they will do something in sometime.But when "sometime" came,"something" still not happended.Just think about their tanks and flight,the results look like big jokes......PAK not like this,you chase your target quiet and silence till "something" comes true.So just work hard for your target!Chinese friend bless you!


you should have had some sence atleast not to post crap in your very first post.
but alas, it just shows how much you read NEWS paper or was it written in CHINESE news papers that we lost all the wars that PAKISTAN ignited in the past by their direct or indirect foolishness


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## JonAsad

ashokdeiva said:


> you should have had some sence atleast not to post crap in your very first post.
> but alas, it just shows how much you read NEWS paper or was it written in CHINESE news papers that we lost all the wars that PAKISTAN ignited in the past by their direct or indirect foolishness



right- there is always a ceasefire- so fools think they have won it-
and-
the indian newspapers says we started them all-
here comes the rationality- No?-


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## Shinigami

JonAsad said:


> right- there is always a ceasefire- so fools think they have won it-
> and-
> the indian newspapers says we started them all-
> here comes the rationality- No?-



do u want to argue about that? 

because u r going to lose


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## Slayer786

Shinigami said:


> do u want to argue about that?
> 
> because u r going to lose



Ok lets argue. India lost the 1948 war as it lost territory which was one-third Kashmir, in 1965 it was a stalemate. In 1971, Pakistan lost the war due to Bengalis were against us and due to their back stabbing we lost the war and East Pakistan.
When you lose territory after a war, that means you have lost. If not then it is a stalemate. If you win territory than you win the war.

So what do you want to argue about?

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## Mav3rick

Slayer786 said:


> Ok lets argue. India lost the 1948 war as it lost territory which was one-third Kashmir, in 1965 it was a stalemate. In 1971, Pakistan lost the war due to Bengalis were against us and due to their back stabbing we lost the war and East Pakistan.
> When you lose territory after a war, that means you have lost. If not then it is a stalemate. If you win territory than you win the war.
> 
> So what do you want to argue about?


 
In 1965, India accepted CF a day earlier then Pakistan. It was India that wanted the CF more then Pakistan. In 1971, it was an internal matter and whatever we lost, we lost to the 'other' Pakistan which is now called Bangladesh. Surrender was signed with India because there was no official Bengali Government operating at that time and India was the acting proxy.

But my friend, it's not only territories that define winners/losers of a war. As in Kargil, around 4k fighters withstood 30-35k Indian Army troops and 10 Squadrons of IAF yet they could not be dislodged from all the posts and India had to beg the world to force our withdrawal yet we still hold a very important strategic observing post but politically it was India that won the war as they achieved their political objective and we could not. It is the political objective that matters the most, at times.

But, even in '99 and again in '02, India could never muster the courage to cross even an inch of LoC or the border.

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## Riteon

Slayer786 said:


> Ok lets argue. India lost the 1948 war as it lost territory which was one-third Kashmir, in 1965 it was a stalemate. In 1971, Pakistan lost the war due to Bengalis were against us and due to their back stabbing we lost the war and East Pakistan.
> When you lose territory after a war, that means you have lost. If not then it is a stalemate. If you win territory than you win the war.
> 
> So what do you want to argue about?




1] thanks for indirectly accepting kashmir is ours

2] Indian army entered Kashmir only after the Raja agreed. hence We gained the kashmir we have now.....

3] 1965 was no stalemate . From operation gibraltar to grandslam....none of your objectives were fulfilled...on top of that from invading kashmir...you had to go back to defend Lahore..................in the end all you guys did is cheer up saying....hey we defended lahore against a larger army !!! hurrah hurrah ......and whenver this debate pops up...one khemkharan picture will be posted ....and thats it 


On the other hand IA achieved its objectives....repelled the covert operatives in kashmir..thanks to kashmiris , Relieved pressure to Akhnoor by attacking Lahore,thereby forcing diversion of troops...............Thank bhutto for the superman theory of 10 indians !!!
4] Bangladeshi were not against you...you were against them!!...denying politcal power, less investment or infrastructure development compared to taxation,less military prescence and very less defence during previous wars ......in the end you brought it upon urself !!! ...........but you lost this one badly

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## SQ8

Topic no longer on track.. 
Closed.

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